# Promoted but no payrise



## stevie (21 Oct 2009)

Hi folks, Any assistance on the following is much appreciated. I work in the sizeable international financial corporation which has an office in Dublin and also an office outside the capital where I work. Although the company has being hit by the worldwide recession it has not being severley affected. Many immediate competitors are in a worse situation and had to let people go. Having said that there has being some costcutting and a freeze implemented on recruitment at the start of the year which still remains in place. Up until the downturn the office I work in had being growing steadily at a phenominal rate.

At my last annual review which was about six months ago I put forward the request that I be considered for promotion in the professional development section. I was told by my reviewer that there was presently very little happening in the way of promotions but I would certainly be strongly considered when things turn around as it would be due to me and my work, timekeeping, attendance etc could not be faulted. That was fair enough I thought and as I did not see anybody else being promoted. Yesterday I was pulled aside by my boss and she told me she submitted a proposal form for my promotion to Dublin for me to be considered for promotion. In general I believe once it is progressed to this stage one would be failrly certain of promotion. She did say however that there would be be no payrise at least not now but there might be one come March hopefully. If I was being promoted at this stage it would be within the next few weeks. I was taken aback when she said there woul be no payrise but did not say a whole lot on this as I was caught unawares. 

After this I was thinking that this is not right. I understand that people are taking paycuts in many workplaces but not in mine or at least none that I have heard of. For all intents and purposes I believe being promoted without a payrise is in affect a paycut but perhaps I am incorrect in saying this? If this is the case why should I take a paycut if none of my colleagues are I am thinking. I'd be taking on extra responsibility with no extra compensation. I have not signed any new contract yet but am wondering now should I. I understand I ideally should have have trashed this out with my boss when I was pulled aside but as I say I was caught of guard somewhat. I do not want to ruin my chances of promotion or progression in the future due to turning down promotion now but at the same time I feel I would be treated as a sucker if I did not demand a payrise with my promotion and would I even get a payrise to bring me in line with other people at my level when things turn around I'm wondering. I do admit that in my department I would be slightly ahead of people currently at the same level as me or so I was told by my boss but I do have more relevant experience in a competitor firm prior to current employment and ideally should have being promomted before now. I would be behind the paylevel of the level I would be promoted to with my current salary.

Does anybody have any insight or perhaps were in a similar situation that may be able to assist and advise me how I should approach the situation please?


----------



## Complainer (21 Oct 2009)

You might want to ask some of the mods to move this thread to the right forum.

It seems a bit strange - it may well be the 'don't waste the recession' thinking, never letting an opportunity pass. Is your business making profits?

At a minimum, I'd be looking for a fixed timescale within which the increase would be paid, provided certain clear objectives were met.


----------



## glasto (21 Oct 2009)

I wonder if you work in my company? I know of promotions made last year with still no payrise. I work for a large financial company etc etc... Good luck with getting your rise, but I wouldn't hold out much hope TBH.


----------



## stevie (21 Oct 2009)

Many thanks for your response Complainer. It is a really tough one to call. I would really like to be progressing and fell I should be. Furthermore I am practically doing the same work at the moment as people at the level I would be promoted to. No doubt I would be taking on that extra bit of responsibility and would probably be moreso expected to work extra hours if required (am on a salary). When I was being offered the promotion I was told there would definately be no money available as a payrise at the moment but maybe there might be something available next April hopefully, which is far from definate. She did tell me I was on pretty much the salary of somebody at the level I would be promoted to but was discussing this with a colleague at that level in another department and he said he was on quite a few grand more...Really don't know, somebody is lying here but think I should be doing better money wise all the same.

I don't want to be in a position where I am starting at a lower base if and when things turn around and salaries go up, if that ever happens. Furthermore I don't want to give out the signal that I am a sucker either sort thing.

Regarding the companies profits, they are assessed on a quarterly basis. I got an email a few days back announcing that third quarter profits are improved over profits for second quarter but considerably less when compared with the third quarter of last year. Having said that it is an intenational organisation and got a mail in the last few days saying there may be cuts to benefits packages if at the start of next year in certain cost centres if things don't improve.

Thought I was subscribing to the most suitable forum but if not could a mod please move the thread if possible please as per Complainers kind advice.


----------



## Guest116 (22 Oct 2009)

I would want some assurances in writing that the salary would be reviewed\increased in 6 months or whatever. Are there other benefits to the promotion? Increased pension contributions, parking, phone expenses, work from home, etc?

It is generally good to move up the career ladder so perhaps take it if you can get assuarances that your salary\benefits will be increased to market levels for the new role in the near future.


----------



## Mpsox (22 Oct 2009)

quite a common occurance in a lot of companies until they see if you are capable of delivering the job, certainly in the multinational I work for it would be at least 6 months after a promotion before you'd be considered for a pay rise

having said that, you should check to see if you are moving into a new job code/description, that may give you more headroom for salary increases in the future.


----------



## Deas (22 Oct 2009)

It's quite possible that management on the ground locally have seen potential in you and wish to move you to a more demanding role in in the past would have been seen as a promotion.  This is definitely a development opportunity not to be turned down.  Back to my original point though - you are working for a large financial.  It is quite possible that there is an embargo on such moves which is overwriting the Irish operational requirements; hence no payrise.  It also appears that you are being appointed.  In my experience, unless a job is advertised and managed through a process there is generally no money involved.

Take the role without grumbling.  In time the money will come and you will be recognised in terms of your potential and willingness to engage.


----------



## stevie (22 Oct 2009)

Folks just to provide ye with an update I had to make a final decision today as the submissions needed to be sent to the Dublin branch before COB today. In the end I decided to decline the promotion. This goes against the grain of much of the advice in the (many of the posts which I am only reading now this evening) but the advice and input is nonetheless appreciated. I have received much conflicting advice on the matter from friends and family and it was not a decision I made lightly. In the end I was probably 45/55 more inclined towards declining the promotion and it was not an easy decision to make. As I said to my boss the the main reason I turned down the promotion was because that I felt more resbonsibility would be set upon my shoulders in the more demanding role and to get no monetary compensation in this regard is very demoralising from my point of view. Even if it was a sweetener (nothing worth talking about in real terms) it would have being somehing and tipped the scales in the other direction as they would be showing their appreciation. It was on a point of principle as much as anything else that I declined the promotion. I do not understand for example why the company makes available money to all employees for club subscriptions when not everybody takes them (I did not say this to the boss). But should such money be ring fenced for people being promoted in these difficult times, no matter how small the payrise would be? I have being told in my last few performance assessments that my work and overall contribution is of a very high standard and to keep up the good work etc. My attendance and timekeeping are absolutely *************************. I did mention that if promotions were being offered again in April (promotions twice annually under normal circumtances) I would very much like to be considered but no guarntees were given. Also said I would take promotion now if I was guarnteed in writing that I would get a payrise in six months if I performed well in the new role and all other things being equal (peoples pay was not being cut then or before that etc.) but no guarntee could be provided. I do not want to lay myself open to being treated like a sucker to sort thing which influenced the decision.

So thats my story folks, call me wise, stupid or indifferent as you will. Whether it was a good or bad decision on my part time will tell I'm sure. 

A previous poster also asked if the benefits package would change. The answer to this is they would stay pretty much as is. Phone and internet usage is available to all employees on a reasonable basis and grade does not affect such privilages in any regard. As its outside capital and not in a city centre car parking spaces are available for all employees in abundance. Pension contributions would remain the same and work from home option would not be possible at either level.


----------



## Complainer (22 Oct 2009)

It was a tough decision, but you may well have set down a marker for how people are to be treated. Do they really want to be promoting people into senior positions who around going to get walked over in any tough negotiation?


----------



## Importer (22 Oct 2009)

Well done, Thats the right decission. If it's a professional organisation you'll be respected for it.


----------



## stevie (22 Oct 2009)

Complainer said:


> It was a tough decision, but you may well have set down a marker for how people are to be treated. Do they really want to be promoting people into senior positions who around going to get walked over in any tough negotiation?


 
Thanks Complainer. I assume you mean from negotiating with a client point of view? As it stands it is unlikely that I would be involved in such negotiations even if I progressed along my career path and up through the ranks as expected but it is an interesting point. Having said that also there is a lot of organisational change at the moment and the relationship management function is being streamlined. It may well be the case that I would be negotiating service level agreements and the like with clients in the future depeding on how these changes are implemented. It is an interesting point also from the point of view that I believe it is not a black and white issue. I don't think its as easy as saying Stevies career is going to take a blo because he did not take the promotion. Then again thats not to Stevies career will not take a blow because he did not accept the promotion, but my point is that I believe it is not that simple.


----------



## stevie (22 Oct 2009)

Importer said:


> Well done, Thats the right decission. If it's a professional organisation you'll be respected for it.


 
Thanks Importer, I'm hoping you will be proved correct! It is a pretty professional organisation but office politics and cronyism are rife all the same.


----------



## Complainer (22 Oct 2009)

stevie said:


> Thanks Complainer. I assume you mean from negotiating with a client point of view? As it stands it is unlikely that I would be involved in such negotiations even if I progressed along my career path and up through the ranks as expected but it is an interesting point. Having said that also there is a lot of organisational change at the moment and the relationship management function is being streamlined. It may well be the case that I would be negotiating service level agreements and the like with clients in the future depeding on how these changes are implemented. It is an interesting point also from the point of view that I believe it is not a black and white issue. I don't think its as easy as saying Stevies career is going to take a blo because he did not take the promotion. Then again thats not to Stevies career will not take a blow because he did not accept the promotion, but my point is that I believe it is not that simple.



No - not just client negotiations. I'm thinking about every internal meeting or disagreement or attempt to get a bit of internal support for an initiative going. All of these are negotiations, and if you can't represent yourself when negotiating salary, how are you going to be able to represent your team?


----------



## Deas (23 Oct 2009)

I hope you have made the right decision.  You may well have stalled your career for the significant future as someone who will not take responsibility or developmental opportunities.  Time will tell.  You will see this when roles are advertised again and if you get called for them against some of your less experienced colleagues.  I'm not trying to scaremonger; however this is how organisations work; professional or otherwise.  Remember it is people who make the decisions, not the organisation.


----------



## Gervan (23 Oct 2009)

A few years ago I took a job I really wanted, so much so that I took a drop in pay, accepting it. Employees who joined later, stated the minimum they would accept, and, less experienced and qualified than I was, were paid more. This always left me feeling bitter. 
At one point, having passed an important exam, I managed to negotiate quite a percentage increase, and for a day, felt very pleased with myself. Then I found out others in the office got the same percentage, without having asked. Their increase was actually a bigger amount because the wage was higher. At that point I made the decision to leave. 
The firm are showing no appreciation of your worth, Stevie. I am sure you have made the right choice.


----------



## Complainer (23 Oct 2009)

Deas said:


> I hope you have made the right decision.  You may well have stalled your career for the significant future as someone who will not take responsibility or developmental opportunities.  Time will tell.  You will see this when roles are advertised again and if you get called for them against some of your less experienced colleagues.  I'm not trying to scaremonger; however this is how organisations work; professional or otherwise.  Remember it is people who make the decisions, not the organisation.


That is one possible outcome. Another possible outcome is that when they need to appoint somebody into a role that requires a tough negotiator who won't let themselves be walked over by others, the OP might spring to mind.


----------



## stevie (23 Oct 2009)

Complainer said:


> No - not just client negotiations. I'm thinking about every internal meeting or disagreement or attempt to get a bit of internal support for an initiative going. All of these are negotiations, and if you can't represent yourself when negotiating salary, how are you going to be able to represent your team?


 
That is a point worth noting Complainer and thanks. It is an aspect I did not even think of or consider when making my decision but well worth bearing in mind. I laid my cards on the table and provided assurances to make every attempt to advance myself and increase my knowledge and contribution in return for a even a small rise in salary or an assurance of a small rise in the future (assuming that there were not any paycuts organisational wide). I believe my request was very reasonable when my already valuable contribution, ************************* time keeping and attendance is taken into account. As far as I can see Management were not willing to compromise or play ball in any regard so why should I.


----------



## stevie (24 Oct 2009)

Gervan said:


> A few years ago I took a job I really wanted, so much so that I took a drop in pay, accepting it. Employees who joined later, stated the minimum they would accept, and, less experienced and qualified than I was, were paid more. This always left me feeling bitter.
> At one point, having passed an important exam, I managed to negotiate quite a percentage increase, and for a day, felt very pleased with myself. Then I found out others in the office got the same percentage, without having asked. Their increase was actually a bigger amount because the wage was higher. At that point I made the decision to leave.
> The firm are showing no appreciation of your worth, Stevie. I am sure you have made the right choice.


 
Thanks Gervan and sorry to hear your story. I can see your point. It gets to a point where you say to yourself why do I bother. I do like the work and get on very well with the very most of my colleagues but the whole event has being very offputting. I am on a salary and many evenings have stayed late as need be for reasons totally outside my control. Have stayed late to assist colleagues in meeting deadlines while other colleagues have got up and walked out pretty much on the button of home time. I did hope to see some fair recognition for this committment but it was not forthcoming. Now I'm saying why bother


----------



## stevie (24 Oct 2009)

Deas said:


> I hope you have made the right decision. You may well have stalled your career for the significant future as someone who will not take responsibility or developmental opportunities. Time will tell. You will see this when roles are advertised again and if you get called for them against some of your less experienced colleagues. I'm not trying to scaremonger; however this is how organisations work; professional or otherwise. Remember it is people who make the decisions, not the organisation.


 
I see your point Deas and thanks. As I say it was not an easy decision to make or one I took lightly. I have given consideration to the fact that less experienced colleagues may be promoted ahead of me but I hope it will not come to this, even though I have not ruled it out.


----------



## Trustmeh (24 Oct 2009)

You made the right decision for yourself, well done. Be aware that you may have made your own manager  look bad - but he already did that to himself by trying to promote you without a pay rise. I believe it is HE that will fare the worse out of this in the long run by top brass and you that will be remembered. if your managers managers know who you are its never a bad thing.

The only time to be rewarded for past good work is when you are going for promotion. subscribing to this thread, I hope that you check back in in a few months to tell us how it all panned out.


----------



## Pickle (24 Oct 2009)

I think if you did not get a pay cut then in a funny way that is a pay rise if you get my meaning,
Promotions should not be just about money,you are valued by the company and now they are going to give you more experience resulting in you having a better CV.
Can I ask you if they had offered you the new promotion and said due to the weak economy we need to get a 5% cut throughout the company  ,what would you have done. Just for the record I would take the new job but that is just me.


----------



## sparkeee (24 Oct 2009)

i don't see how it can be described as a promotion without any enhancement of salary or benifits for the individual.Its just a change of job description probably meaning increased workload and only benefits the company.You were right to refuse to work extra for no thanks.


----------



## Black Sheep (24 Oct 2009)

It seems to me your true worth is not been valued here. The usual story of the willing horse etc.
From your original post this promotion required either a move to Dublin or a long commute and your Company were not even prepared to compensate you for that. It sounds like you would have accepted if they had shown any recognition of your commitiment. They didn't so yes you made the correct decision.


----------



## thesimpsons (24 Oct 2009)

say, for example, you are in Job X, have performed well in that job and do it very well with lots of experience and are being paid for it at top of its scale. So then you change to Job Y, the base salary for this job might be lower than top end of Job X, you are only learning the job, its more responsibility and company doesn't know how you will potentially perform in that role. I can see why a pay rise is not necessarily a right in the case, but maybe there should be an assurance that performance would be reviewed within x number of months. What the promotion would give you though is portability - either in same company or new company.  I've taken promotion for less money - the experience was worth it and the money came in time.


----------



## Trustmeh (27 Oct 2009)

thesimpsons said:


> say, for example, you are in Job X, have performed well in that job and do it very well with lots of experience and are being paid for it at top of its scale. So then you change to Job Y, the base salary for this job might be lower than top end of Job X, you are only learning the job, its more responsibility and company doesn't know how you will potentially perform in that role. I can see why a pay rise is not necessarily a right in the case, but maybe there should be an assurance that performance would be reviewed within x number of months. What the promotion would give you though is portability - either in same company or new company.  I've taken promotion for less money - the experience was worth it and the money came in time.



That example sounds more like a career change than a promotion.


----------



## orionstar21 (28 Oct 2009)

Stevie,

This is scary, if someone in my job read this thread they would think this was me under your alias!  This is exactly what happened to me.  In fact, they done it twice already.  I was "awarded" the opportunity to "better" myself within the company by getting "promoted". My idea and their idea of a promotion are completly different things. These are called sidemotions (increased work or responsibility under the guise of a PROmotion with absolutely positively no reward or that there ever will be).  Thats why the promotion is held at a different time to the pay review (not really a review, its you got something or you didn't) It is the utmost insult to any living human being's intelligence on the plannet.  And to sit there and tell you otherwise is to directly tell you that you are not wanted, pack your bags.  Its a strategy used to encourage people to leave because these days its impossible to sack someone if the company is doing ok and your performance is *************************. They plant the seeds to make you angry and let them germinate over time.  Lets face it, why does your company work? To make money, right?  Why do you work for the company? To make money!  Although I like what I do there is no way I would do it for nothing, I have a kids/mortgage etc...  I sat with my boss and he told me I had been promoted, I said "what again", do I get anything this time? He said well no, thats for HR to decide (already my blood is boiling). He could not tell me what the promotion even meant, he just said "you'll be doing the same job more or less".  It was the more or less aspect I was interested in that he purposely left grey and without any intel.  I just told him thanks but no thanks.  He fell off his seat!  He must have been thinking to himself, why is the sucker saying no this time?  He said so your are declinging the promotion? I asked, what exactly am I declining? NOTHING! Your offering me nothing, so yes, I'm declining nothing! 

Dude, you done the best thing.  I read your thread hoping you didn't take that promotion, I'm so glad you didn't, keep your calmness and tell them if this is their way of rewarding people who do good work in that place then dont bother as it is insulting, Id sooner you come out with it and say you want me to leave.  This is becoming more common.  I have become absolutely positively demotivated as a result of that muck.  I now only do what I'm asked to do.


----------

