# Standards for rental accommodation



## Natb2017 (23 Jul 2019)

I’m getting a property ready for the rental market and I’ve looked through the regulations but I have a few questions regarding the regulations if anyone can help me.
First is in regarding to heaters in every room bathroom and shower room... 
what about a downstairs toilet( just toilet and sink no shower or anything else) would this need a heater as it doesn’t currently have one...
What about a utility room( contains washer/dryer and the oil boiler) room is fairly warm when these are running does this room also need a heater?
Second regarding ventilation for a bathroom/ shower room currently there’s just vents in these room do I need to put in extractor fans?
Third for the vermin proof refuse storage. There is a plastic shed in the back garden is this sufficient or do I need something else....


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## cremeegg (24 Jul 2019)

First of all as a long term landlord, may I respectfully suggest that you may not be temperamentally suited to this business, if you are concerned by these issues at this stage. 

I do not think that you need heaters in all rooms. Just a heating system that can be controlled by the tenant. If you are letting the house as a unit this just means the tenants have control of the heating. In shared accommodation, each tenant must be able to control the heat in their room.

I think an extractor fan with a 15 minute cut out is required in a bathroom. In any case I strongly recommend having one. They reduce the chances of mould. Money well spent.

Any basic plastic bin is vermin proof.


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## Leo (24 Jul 2019)

The downstairs toilet and utility would generally not be classified as habitable rooms, and so these will not need heaters.


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## Bronte (24 Jul 2019)

cremeegg said:


> First of all as a long term landlord, may I respectfully suggest that you may not be temperamentally suited to this business, if you are concerned by these issues at this stage.
> .



One of my tenant's won't put on the heating in the shower room as it costs too much electricity.  Leading to mould.  One of those pull cord blow heaters.  When I'm renovating I'm going to take that out, put in a heated towel rail and have the extractor linked to the light switch.  

As for vermin proof, that's the first I heard of that. But my ground floor tenant keeps the bin in the hall as he's put so much 'stuff' on the way to the back door he can't bring out the bin.  It's disgusting, totally against regulations but none of the other tenants are complaining so what can I do.   It's a terrace so I'm thinking of 'stealing' some of the footpath to store the bins tidily at the front, and hopefully the council won't notice !


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## elcato (24 Jul 2019)

Supply portable electric heaters which can be moved as required by the tenant.


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## Bronte (24 Jul 2019)

elcato said:


> Supply portable electric heaters which can be moved as required by the tenant.


Oh my goodness don't do that ! You're looking at a fire hazard or a tenant tripping over it or all sorts.  I discovered to my horror recently that one of the shower rooms had an actual socket that I'd never noticed before.  

In any case I'm pretty sure portable heaters are not what the regulations specify.


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## The Horseman (24 Jul 2019)

Bronte said:


> One of my tenant's won't put on the heating in the shower room as it costs too much electricity.  Leading to mould.  One of those pull cord blow heaters.  When I'm renovating I'm going to take that out, put in a heated towel rail and have the extractor linked to the light switch.



I have something in the back of my head that you need to have a separate switch for the fan and that it can't be connected to the light switch. I can't remember where I heard this or even if it is true. Just check it out before you do it.


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## galway_blow_in (24 Jul 2019)

The Horseman said:


> I have something in the back of my head that you need to have a separate switch for the fan and that it can't be connected to the light switch. I can't remember where I heard this or even if it is true. Just check it out before you do it.



This is indeed true


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## renter45 (24 Jul 2019)

Natb2017 said:


> I’m getting a property ready for the rental market and I’ve looked through the regulations but I have a few questions regarding the regulations if anyone can help me.
> First is in regarding to heaters in every room bathroom and shower room...
> what about a downstairs toilet( just toilet and sink no shower or anything else) would this need a heater as it doesn’t currently have one...
> What about a utility room( contains washer/dryer and the oil boiler) room is fairly warm when these are running does this room also need a heater?
> ...


I wouldn't worry about it, council are now inspecting properties & you get 6 weeks to make any amendments. Friend in work needs to install carbon monoxide alarm, fire blanket, window restrictors & has 6 weeks to complete.


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## Baby boomer (25 Jul 2019)

galway_blow_in said:


> This is indeed true


I thought it was the other way around.  That you MUST have the fan connected to the light switch. At least for an en-suite with no natural light. Idea being that you shouldn't be using the bathroom without also activating the fan.
Just a vague idea - I might well be wrong.


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## Leo (25 Jul 2019)

Bronte said:


> In any case I'm pretty sure portable heaters are not what the regulations specify.



Correct, the legislation says they must be permanently fixed.


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## Leo (25 Jul 2019)

renter45 said:


> I wouldn't worry about it, council are now inspecting properties & you get 6 weeks to make any amendments. Friend in work needs to install carbon monoxide alarm, fire blanket, window restrictors & has 6 weeks to complete.



I've only ever heard of those inpsections taking place on properties rented to HAP tenants. For older properties, adequate ventilation is often the biggest challenge, as the forms I've seen from two LAs require an effective free area of at least 6500 sq mm in each habitable room.


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## Bronte (25 Jul 2019)

Leo said:


> I've only ever heard of those inpsections taking place on properties rented to HAP tenants. For older properties, adequate ventilation is often the biggest challenge, as the forms I've seen from two LAs require an effective free area of at least 6500 sq mm in each habitable room.


My first tenant went into HAP in early 2016.  No inspection since, nor indeed for the the last two decades.


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## Bronte (25 Jul 2019)

Leo said:


> Correct, the legislation says they must be permanently fixed.



Do you think a heated towel rail is covered under that.  I see they want us to suppy microwaves, that's the one thing I don't supply.  It doesn't say anything about the bathroom fan being linked to the light switch.  

The legislation is difficult to get thru.  An easy guide would be much better.  I think the council sent me something once, a picture of a house and what bits you must have.


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## renter45 (25 Jul 2019)

Leo said:


> I've only ever heard of those inpsections taking place on properties rented to HAP tenants. For older properties, adequate ventilation is often the biggest challenge, as the forms I've seen from two LAs require an effective free area of at least 6500 sq mm in each habitable room.


This was rented firsttime in 2017 privately unless a tenant has applied for HAP in the meantime?? Its in fingal area so maybe they're ramping up random inspections.


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## Leo (25 Jul 2019)

Bronte said:


> Do you think a heated towel rail is covered under that.



Yes, a towel rail would meet the criteria.



Bronte said:


> It doesn't say anything about the bathroom fan being linked to the light switch.



Yep, they remain a little vague on this point, I guess so they can rely on whatever the building regs of the day state. In the properties I've seen HAP reports on, an opening window was considered adequate ventilation in both cases.


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## Leo (25 Jul 2019)

renter45 said:


> This was rented firsttime in 2017 privately unless a tenant has applied for HAP in the meantime??



If they were on HAP, the landlord would know all about it as there is paperwork you need to complete before it's approved, and rent payments will be made by the local authority.


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## galway_blow_in (25 Jul 2019)

Baby boomer said:


> I thought it was the other way around.  That you MUST have the fan connected to the light switch. At least for an en-suite with no natural light. Idea being that you shouldn't be using the bathroom without also activating the fan.
> Just a vague idea - I might well be wrong.



For rental standards, the shower fan must be independent of the light switch


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## Leo (25 Jul 2019)

galway_blow_in said:


> For rental standards, the shower fan must be independent of the light switch



There's nothing in the regs (linked above) that states that, they just state 'Adequate ventilation shall be provided for the removal of water vapour from every kitchen and bathroom. '

Separately, under building regs, TGD F deals with ventilation requirements. Where there is a window with an opening of sufficient size to provide purge ventilation, that meets the requirements. For situations where mechanical extract ventilation is required, connection to the light switch is fine, but in some instances a timed over-run of 15 minutes is required.


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## Bronte (25 Jul 2019)

Leo said:


> . For situations where mechanical extract ventilation is required, connection to the light switch is fine, but in some instances a timed over-run of 15 minutes is required.



That's a very good tip - tks. My problem is the tenants won't open the windows, particularly in winter, and they won't put on the heater either. 

I've a crazy qoote from an electrician of a ball park 14 to 20K to rewire an old terraced house.  It's divided into two but would be the size of a normal 3 bed ish over 2 floors.  Now I'm waiting for a builder for more extensive works including the electrics, and if his quote is anything like that I'll have to decide not to renovate. 

According to the builder:
*
Converting the electricity to two separate units would require compliance with severe health & safety regulation (this would be a significant cost - the builder will provide a quote for both scenarios).*


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## galway_blow_in (25 Jul 2019)

Leo said:


> There's nothing in the regs (linked above) that states that, they just state 'Adequate ventilation shall be provided for the removal of water vapour from every kitchen and bathroom. '
> 
> Separately, under building regs, TGD F deals with ventilation requirements. Where there is a window with an opening of sufficient size to provide purge ventilation, that meets the requirements. For situations where mechanical extract ventilation is required, connection to the light switch is fine, but in some instances a timed over-run of 15 minutes is required.



If dealing with the local authority when it comes to tenants, they demand a Seperate power source for a shower fan, I had to do it in 2018.

Stupid admittedly but there you are, in a private tenant situation, the regs are sometimes less strict


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## Bronte (25 Jul 2019)

galway_blow_in said:


> If dealing with the local authority when it comes to tenants, they demand a Seperate power source for a shower fan, I had to do it in 2018.
> 
> Stupid admittedly but there you are, in a private tenant situation, the regs are sometimes less strict


Maybe that only applies in the county where you are.  I bet anything each local authority has devised their own rules on what the legislation/regulations mean.


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## cremeegg (25 Jul 2019)

I am bit concerned by some of the landlords comments here.

A local authority can only demand that you comply with the law. They cannot demand you to go beyond that.

They can of course ask you to do anything that comes into their pointy little heads.

A landlord should always ask what is the legal basis for any request made by a local authority. The local authority cannot make up new demands as they go along, neither have they authority to produce a definitive interpretation of the law.

But if they say "jump" and the landlord says "how high", then the landlord has only themselves to blame if they end up doing stupid things.

I had a HAP inspection over a year ago and I wrote to the council asking what was the legal basis of one of their requirements, I received a reply thanking me for my letter. If landlords don't call their bluff, and they do bluff trying to see what they can get away with, why shouldn't they demand whatever.

see thread https://www.askaboutmoney.com/threads/hap-inspection.210595/


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## galway_blow_in (25 Jul 2019)

Bronte said:


> Maybe that only applies in the county where you are.  I bet anything each local authority has devised their own rules on what the legislation/regulations mean.



It's possible, I don't know, council rep who gave me a list was OK for the most part.


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## Leo (25 Jul 2019)

galway_blow_in said:


> If dealing with the local authority when it comes to tenants, they demand a Seperate power source for a shower fan, I had to do it in 2018.
> 
> Stupid admittedly but there you are, in a private tenant situation, the regs are sometimes less strict



In your scenario was the shower fan required (internal room, no windows), and do you mean they required a separate switch to control it? That would indeed be beyond the requirements, but it also wouldn't surprise me.


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## Leo (25 Jul 2019)

cremeegg said:


> A local authority can only demand that you comply with the law. They cannot demand you to go beyond that.



They can and do. In the two reports I've seen they have gone beyond the regulations. In one case, an apartment with no open flame cooking or heating source and electric storage heating they insisted on the installation of a carbon monoxide alarm. In the other, a 1940's LA build, they insisted on a minimum free area of 6500 sq mm of ventilation in all habitable rooms.

The building regs clearly state that they are not applicable to older buildings, and their application may not even be applicable to renovations of older buildings.  In a building as porous as a corpo build of that era, putting a hole in the wall of more than 9cm diameter in a room makes for an uncomfortable environment. Note the free area is calculated based on the open spaces in any grill fitted to the vent, so in order to comply with their requirements you need to fit a 5" core with a minimal cover.

Part of the problem perhaps is that the rental standards regs are quite vague, using terms such as  'where necessary' or 'adequate', without referring to a definitive source. I wonder what might have happened had to two people who shared reports with me pushed back, but in both cases they said the inspectors seemed quite reasonable, so they wanted to comply rather than risk the HAP payments stopping.


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## galway_blow_in (25 Jul 2019)

cremeegg said:


> I am bit concerned by some of the landlords comments here.
> 
> A local authority can only demand that you comply with the law. They cannot demand you to go beyond that.
> 
> ...




In your scenario was the shower fan required (internal room, no windows), and do you mean they required a separate switch to control it? That would indeed be beyond the requirements, but it also wouldn't surprise me.
[/QUOTE]

Regular bathroom with window but yet they demanded it,shower fan has its own independent switch, no doubt the tenant never even turns the thing on where as if the fan were on the same power as the light switch, the fight against dampness would be better served

PS, I've the house let to the council for ten years so I didn't select the tenant.


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## cremeegg (25 Jul 2019)

Leo said:


> They can and do. In the two reports I've seen they have gone beyond the regulations.



They can and they do ask landlords to do more than legally required, but landlords can equally refuse.


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## galway_blow_in (25 Jul 2019)

Leo said:


> They can and do. In the two reports I've seen they have gone beyond the regulations. In one case, an apartment with no open flame cooking or heating source and electric storage heating they insisted on the installation of a carbon monoxide alarm. In the other, a 1940's LA build, they insisted on a minimum free area of 6500 sq mm of ventilation in all habitable rooms.
> 
> The building regs clearly state that they are not applicable to older buildings, and their application may not even be applicable to renovations of older buildings.  In a building as porous as a corpo build of that era, putting a hole in the wall of more than 9cm diameter in a room makes for an uncomfortable environment. Note the free area is calculated based on the open spaces in any grill fitted to the vent, so in order to comply with their requirements you need to fit a 5" core with a minimal cover.
> 
> Part of the problem perhaps is that the rental standards regs are quite vague, using terms such as  'where necessary' or 'adequate', without referring to a definitive source. I wonder what might have happened had to two people who shared reports with me pushed back, but in both cases they said the inspectors seemed quite reasonable, so they wanted to comply rather than risk the HAP payments stopping.



My property is a terraced house built in 1895, I wasn't going to drill holes in a stone built house with brick facade so retro fitted the windows to meet ventilation regs

Wasn't good enough, council inspector said the rooms were too small for trickle vents to suffice, I then had to fit two slated vents on the roof and fit two Duct pipes down through the attic from the aforementioned slate vents, he let me off with the downstairs rooms as you couldn't do anything bar drill through the walls and no way was I doing that, two different drill specialists refused, bathroom and kitchen were modern block wall extensions so no issue drilling hole in bathroom wall for shower fan


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## cremeegg (25 Jul 2019)

galway_blow_in said:


> I wrote a lengthy letter to Limerick city Council back in May



And..., don't leave us hanging.

I guess that you heard nothing from the council as they haven't a leg to stand on but they dont like to admit that.

As an aside, a separate power source for a shower fan is something I installed on the advice of my electrician, nothing to do with the council. I dont really know if it is necessary, but if my electrician suggested it, its probably standard practice.


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## galway_blow_in (25 Jul 2019)

cremeegg said:


> And..., don't leave us hanging.
> 
> I guess that you heard nothing from the council as they haven't a leg to stand on but they dont like to admit that.
> 
> As an aside, a separate power source for a shower fan is something I installed on the advice of my electrician, nothing to do with the council. I dont really know if it is necessary, but if my electrician suggested it, its probably standard practice.



Sorry cremeegg, that was mistakenly put in there by mistake, different issue, might detail it some other time, been chastised for going off topic before


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## galway_blow_in (25 Jul 2019)

Appears my council inspector was rather difficult, at the time I thought he was OK, the jobs weren't terribly costly though I was annoyed about  fitting the Duct pipe from the slated vent as I suspect it will eventually cause potential dampness in the attic, heard conflicting reports about such an instalation, one guy said it will create draught in the upstairs bedrooms but that's all, the other tradesman reckoned the cold air coming in from outside to a warm place like an attic will create moisture build up

Despite the high standards demanded by the local authority, they don't give a damn what the person who lives in it does to the house, I've inspected my house once since last July and the backyard is full of rubbish, the local council do not enforce any standards on their tenants, in fact they farm out management of the houses to other bodies, I had a social worker type individual show me around 

The council are my tenant under the long term leasing arrangements, person living in the property is the councils tenant


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## Bronte (26 Jul 2019)

galway_blow_in said:


> It's possible, I don't know, council rep who gave me a list was OK for the most part.


Would you mind sending me the list, just delete your details. Or even better put it up on here so we can see what it is the different councils are looking at.


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## Bronte (26 Jul 2019)

Leo said:


> Part of the problem perhaps is that the rental standards regs are quite vague, using terms such as  'where necessary' or 'adequate', without referring to a definitive source. I wonder what might have happened had to two people who shared reports with me pushed back, but in both cases they said the inspectors seemed quite reasonable, so they wanted to comply rather than risk the HAP payments stopping.


I don't think they'd stop the HAP, the councils are dying to get landlords to sign up.  When I was initially signing up to HAP I nearly gave up with the amount of stuff they were asking off me and they phoned me from Limerick (that's the payment office for the country for HAP or something) and begged me to keep going.  

I can't get my tenants to put on the heat in the bathroom (told me ' we never use that') when I inspected recently.  And they clearly wouldn't dream of using the fan if it had a separate switch.  That's just a plain crazy suggestion unless there is some reason it's dangerous to have the light and fan together.  Which is the norm in any house I've been in. My own shower is like that.


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## Leo (26 Jul 2019)

Bronte said:


> I don't think they'd stop the HAP, the councils are dying to get landlords to sign up.



In one of the cases I know of it was a tenant in situ that had switched over to HAP during the tenancy, and the inspection happened a few months after that again. There was the threat that payments would be stopped if issues were not rectified by a certain date, but I've no idea how they'd respond if the landlord pushed back.  Rock and a hard place though when the tenancy is established, you'd potentially have to go down the road of evicting them for non-payment of rent if the LA stopped payment and the tenant didn't pay. That could get very messy and expensive.


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## elcato (26 Jul 2019)

RE: Light and fan feed seperate. Is it not a case that you need a separate line feed which can isolate each unit. I have a fuse outside the bathroom which allows for the fan to be disabled separate from the light but both come on together when the light switch is on (The fan keeps going for 10 minutes after light switch off).


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## PickerUpper (31 Jul 2019)

Just had an inspection done (I'm the landlord, we have a HAP tenant) and they have advised we need " a cooker good or extractor fan vented to external air". That's fine but the cooker hood sits on an internal wall in an apartment block. 
There is a window 2 feet away, a balcony door 6 feet away. I called the inspection company who said the window and door are not counted in compliance. He suggested a wall mounted extractor fan but I'm still left with no option to vent it. I assume my management company won't let me drill a hole in the external wall and if I just vent through the window, the tenant is as likely to remove the hose as not open the window in the first place. Anyone come across this before and have a suggestion please?

Inspector also said a carbon hood/ filter is not compliant.

Thanks


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## elcato (31 Jul 2019)

PickerUpper said:


> That's fine but the cooker hood sits on an internal wall in an apartment block.


This suggests that someone changed the layout of the apartment at some stage and moved the kitchen. Not a help to your question I know unless it's easy to see where the kitchen used to be and somehow get a pipe to the vent.


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## cremeegg (31 Jul 2019)

PickerUpper said:


> Inspector also said a carbon hood/ filter is not compliant.



The inspector may well be correct, but I would confirm this independently first.

You can read the regulations as well as the inspector. His interpretation does not have the force of law.

If you disagree with him ask for his opinion in writing. He may well back off.


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## PickerUpper (31 Jul 2019)

elcato said:


> This suggests that someone changed the layout of the apartment at some stage and moved the kitchen. Not a help to your question I know unless it's easy to see where the kitchen used to be and somehow get a pipe to the vent.


Nope, we've owned it since it was built so no movement of any rooms/ fixtures.


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## PickerUpper (31 Jul 2019)

cremeegg said:


> The inspector may well be correct, but I would confirm this independently first.
> 
> You can read the regulations as well as the inspector. His interpretation does not have the force of law.
> 
> If you disagree with him ask for his opinion in writing. He may well back off.


Ok, I didn't know that. I'll have a chat with him and see what might work. Thanks


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## elcato (1 Aug 2019)

PickerUpper said:


> Nope, we've owned it since it was built so no movement of any rooms/ fixtures.


So the kitchen was built with a hob without any external vent ? Wow.


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## Bronte (1 Aug 2019)

elcato said:


> So the kitchen was built with a hob without any external vent ? Wow.


Why does that surprise you? I'm surprised you're surprised.  I've seen chimney breasts in the middle of a bedroom where the double bed is supposed to be, toilet seat in en suite so tight you can't actually close the door, built in wardrobes impossible to open as the room is too small, handicapped toilet that you can't get a wheelchair to because the hall is too narrow, front door wide enough for a wheel chair but all bedrooms upstairs.  And that's without the serious stuff like fire walls missing or using some kind of washing up liquid to glue bricks together.


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## elcato (1 Aug 2019)

Bronte - All you describe is in houses/buildings which were turned into flats long before any regulations were intoduced. I'm thinking Rathmines in the 70/80s here. The OP gave me the impression they were an apartment in a purpose bult block which are a relatively new concept in Dublin and which I would expect proper ventialtion built in.


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## PickerUpper (1 Aug 2019)

Yes, purpose built in 2004, one of hundreds in a planned estate in Dublin 15. The extractor fan has a hose that just sits on the top of the kitchen cabinets and is just open back into the kitchen.


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## iamaspinner (1 Aug 2019)

PickerUpper said:


> Yes, purpose built in 2004, one of hundreds in a planned estate in Dublin 15. The extractor fan has a hose that just sits on the top of the kitchen cabinets and is just open back into the kitchen.


I think something like that could be fine if there's a carbon filter fitted? I'm open to correction.


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## Leo (6 Aug 2019)

iamaspinner said:


> I think something like that could be fine if there's a carbon filter fitted? I'm open to correction.



They were fine for building regs when those units were built, but the rental accommodation standards set a higher, and take no account for when a property was built.


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## Tonto12 (9 Dec 2019)

Can I ask opinions on bathroom ventilation requirements. Interpretations of the new regulations housing standards 2019. Is a mechanical extraction ventilation mandatory in your opinions?


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## Drakon (9 Dec 2019)

I think just a basic vent is required, basically a hole in the wall.


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## Drakon (9 Dec 2019)

There’s talk of landlords being compelled to upgrade the BER of their properties. If they don’t do so the may need to reimbursement their tenants for the additional heating costs.


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## Tonto12 (10 Dec 2019)

I had an LA/hap housing inspection last week. After receiving a report from council, 
I need to fit upstairs window restrictors, 2 carbon monoxide alarms.  A mechanical extractor in bathroom.
A permanent ventilation vent of 6500mm in the kitchen.


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## Tonto12 (10 Dec 2019)

The first two items I’ve no issues with. However the ventilation requirements I find are a bit ridiculous. As the main bathroom has a window plus wall vent and no history of ventilation problems?
Secondly the kitchen item also annoys me as, there’s two large windows and an extraction fan over the cooker. Also after looking up the new regulations these requirements aren’t specified, it only states that adequate ventilation is required.


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## Leo (10 Dec 2019)

Tonto12 said:


> However the ventilation requirements I find are a bit ridiculous.



Yep, common complaint. Even in older properties that are quite leaky they still insist on wall vents in all rooms.


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## Drakon (10 Dec 2019)

I researched HAP inspections last year before I signed up to it. The online consensus at the time was that inspections rarely happen, if they do it’s after six months or so, and are usually a formality. 
I was surprised when I received an email with three pages of issues. 
Same items as yours. Fortunately my tenants are independent and he’s very handy. The one job he couldn’t do himself he got a buddy to do it at mate rates. This was the only expense they passed onto me, though I did insist on giving them a decent One4All voucher.

I’m not saying the inspection requirement would put me off HAP, but I’d lived in the house myself for six years without these additions. My tenant electing to sort it all out saved me a lot of hassle.


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