# Presidential Election



## Guest105

This is turning out to be a right fiasco with all sorts of swipes being directed at the candidates. Douglas Hyde must be turning in his grave. I reckon if this bickering carries on it will result in a very low turn out on the day


----------



## truthseeker

Its very mud slinging isnt it?

I dont remember it being this bad the last time or the time before - although Id have been less bothered about current affairs than now so perhaps it was and I just didnt notice.


----------



## Guest105

No last time it didnt come anywhere near the mud slinging that is currently doing the rounds. Personally I am disgusted at the carry on and it dosent do us any favours. Maybe Enda could do the job along with his own, sure I heard it say more than once that he is a great statesman, save us a fortune so it would.


----------



## onq

I think a lot of it is the general disillusionment people feel - they're tearing at anything - few enough apart from the Christian Right seem to have any real agenda.


----------



## Sunny

To be fair to the media, it is more than mud slinging.  McGuiness, Dana, Mitchell and Norris all have serious questions to answer which they have not done. It's the main reason a nothing candidate like Gallagher looks like winning. 

Still don't understand why FG picked Mitchell. With their ratings, their candidate should have walked this election.


----------



## onq

I would say that in additions to the four you mention, the other three have questions to answer too. Davis is known to have benefited from appointments to severla quangos, Gallagher is tainted by his previous association with FF and what some see as his questionable provenance as an "entrepreneur", while Michael D is hobbling around on a bad knee.


----------



## Sunny

onq said:


> I would say that in additions to the four you mention, the other three have questions to answer too. Davis is known to have benefited from appointments to severla quangos, Gallagher is tainted by his previous association with FF and what some see as his questionable provenance as an "entrepreneur", while Michael D is hobbling around on a bad knee.


 
Not exactly in the same league as the others though is it? Alleged involvement in murder, knowledge of alleged child abuse by a member of your campaign team, unpublished letters that could contain questionable attitudes to underage sex never mind the damaging published ones. And then you have Mitchell who never outlined exactly what death penalty prisioners he sought to help or was it just the ones found guilty of murdering people involved in abortion.

Having links to FF and a bad knee kind of pale into insignificance.


----------



## Shawady

Definitely a dirty one this time around and expect it to get more intense now that Gallagher is flying in the latest opinion poll.


----------



## liaconn

I actually think one of the reasons for such a dearth of impressive candidates is the knowledge of what they and their family will be put through once they mount a campaign. It's an awful shame the media behave like this and it really isn't doing the country any favours.


----------



## T McGibney

Sunny said:


> And then you have Mitchell who never outlined exactly what death penalty prisioners he sought to help or was it just the ones found guilty of murdering people involved in abortion.



Mitchell explained clearly in several interviews that he has consistently opposed the death penalty and made representations, including clemency letters, for a wide range of cases, some of which he named. 

I would have expected Mitchell's stance on the death penalty to be an electoral hindrance in somewhere like Alabama but I'm genuinely taken aback that this also now applies in Ireland. 

Michael D Higgins has also a long and admirable record in opposing the death penalty.


----------



## Complainer

liaconn said:


> I actually think one of the reasons for such a dearth of impressive candidates is the knowledge of what they and their family will be put through once they mount a campaign. It's an awful shame the media behave like this and it really isn't doing the country any favours.


I agree - but until people stop buying tabloid stuff, the meeja will keep on producing it.


T McGibney said:


> I would have expected Mitchell's stance on the death penalty to be an electoral hindrance in somewhere like Alabama but I'm genuinely taken aback that this also now applies in Ireland.


I really don't think this has been a major issue for Mitchell. IMHO, his inability to open his mouth without picking a fight with somebody has been his big problem.


----------



## Sunny

T McGibney said:


> Mitchell explained clearly in several interviews that he has consistently opposed the death penalty and made representations, including clemency letters, for a wide range of cases, some of which he named.
> 
> I would have expected Mitchell's stance on the death penalty to be an electoral hindrance in somewhere like Alabama but I'm genuinely taken aback that this also now applies in Ireland.


 
No he didn't. He claimed he made representations on numerous cases but never revealed which ones. Or at least I never read them. Do you have a link?

I don't have a problem with his stance on the Death Penalty. I do have a problem with selective campaigning on the issue.


----------



## Sunny

Complainer said:


> I agree - but until people stop buying tabloid stuff, the meeja will keep on producing it.


 


liaconn said:


> I actually think one of the reasons for such a dearth of impressive candidates is the knowledge of what they and their family will be put through once they mount a campaign. It's an awful shame the media behave like this and it really isn't doing the country any favours.


 
These are not trivial tabloid stories. We are not talking about someone smoking a joint or having an affair. Nobody cares about Dana having a fight with her family over money. I do care that she said that she wasn't aware of the allegations before the court case when if the stories today are to believed is clearly not the case.

Same goes for the other candidates. They all have questions to answer and coming out with the standard line of its time to look to the future is just not going to cut it.


----------



## T McGibney

Sunny said:


> No he didn't. He claimed he made representations on numerous cases but never revealed which ones. Or at least I never read them. Do you have a link?



He rattled off a litany of cases on Ivan Yates show last week or the week before. (He included in this the Iranian lady who was sentenced to be buried up to the neck and stoned to death). I think this was the second time I heard him say this.

You can look up the link(s) yourself.


----------



## Sunny

T McGibney said:


> He rattled off a litany of cases on Ivan Yates show last week or the week before. (He included in this the Iranian lady who was sentenced to be buried up to the neck and stoned to death). I think this was the second time I heard him say this.
> 
> You can look up the link(s) yourself.


 
Ratting off names is not sufficient. He made written represenation in the US case and the letter has been seen. What letters did he write in the other cases? Lets see them. As far as I know, there is only one case where the representation he made has been made public.

By the way, I don't think this is a big issue. I agree with Complainer that Mitchell is just a plain awful candidate. Doesn't need a scandal not to get elected. How a party like FG can have a candidate with his rating in the polls is amazing.


----------



## T McGibney

Sunny said:


> I don't have a problem with his stance on the Death Penalty. I do have a problem with selective campaigning on the issue.



Kinda proves my point. All campaigns are by their nature selective, as its logistically impossible to be an advocate for everybody. Back in the days when Amnesty International used to campaign for prisoners of conscience,  tyrants and their apologists regularly accused Amnesty of being selective and biased in their choice of campaigns. 'What about...' was their mantra whenever they found themselves under pressure.


----------



## T McGibney

Sunny said:


> By the way, I don't think this is a big issue.



That's odd. It was you who conflated it with "Alleged involvement in murder, knowledge of alleged child abuse by a  member of your campaign team, " etc




Sunny said:


> Ratting off names is not sufficient. He made  written represenation in the US case and the letter has been seen. *What  letters did he write in the other cases?* Lets see them. As far as I  know, there is only one case where the representation he made has been  made public.



That is the precise question Yates asked him.


----------



## T McGibney

Just to clarify, my interest in this subject derives, not from support for Mitchell, but from a concern that this episode will leave Irish politicians very reluctant to make statements whenever someone is lined up to be executed on dubious grounds in a foreign jurisdiction.

Anyone who is old enough will remember the tabloid headline 'LOONY MP BACKS IRA PUB BOMB MONSTERS' which was used to vilify Chris Mullen, campaigner for the Guildford Four. I sometimes wonder how many of Mullen's fellow MPs were scared into silence by that and similar headlines, and how many innocent people were left to rot in jail, being unable to garner sufficient public attention to have their cases re-examined.

And Mullen was no stranger to being accused of 'selective campaigning' either


----------



## MrMan

T McGibney said:


> Just to clarify, my interest in this subject derives, not from support for Mitchell, but from a concern that this episode will leave Irish politicians very reluctant to make statements whenever someone is lined up to be executed on dubious grounds in a foreign jurisdiction.
> 
> Anyone who is old enough will remember the tabloid headline 'LOONY MP BACKS IRA PUB BOMB MONSTERS' which was used to vilify Chris Mullen, campaigner for the Guildford Four. I sometimes wonder how many of Mullen's fellow MPs were scared into silence by that and similar headlines, and how many innocent people were left to rot in jail, being unable to garner sufficient public attention to have their cases re-examined.
> 
> And Mullen was no stranger to being accused of 'selective campaigning' either



I think you are giving far too much credit to Mitchell if you think that writing letters is why people won't vote for him. He isn't really in the discussion when it comes to who is going to be elected. 

The media are generally beaten with a stick when it comes to politicians private lives etc, but I think that the information on the main candidates (and Dana) has been for the benefit of the public. 
Each candidate stands up and tells us what they will bring to the role, they don't tell us what baggage they bring, and that is what the media is there to produce, so that we can make a somewhat informed decdision.


----------



## Birroc

I think 5/4 on PaddyPower for Higgins represents great value.


----------



## T McGibney

MrMan said:


> I think you are giving far too much credit to Mitchell if you think that writing letters is why people won't vote for him.



I don't actually. However the subject of the letter writing came up here and I responded.


----------



## Purple

I think Gallagher's links with FF will help him. Over 40% of the country used to vote for them and they’ve spent the last year being told that they were idiots (and possibly crooks) ever to do so. He may be getting a protest vote of sorts.

Pat Cox must be really peeved.


----------



## MrMan

T McGibney said:


> I don't actually. However the subject of the letter writing came up here and I responded.



Fair enough, I think we can agree that Mitchell has been a poor candidate so far, an uninspiring choice.


----------



## T McGibney

Very poor indeed.


----------



## Yorrick

The biggest problem with negative campaigning is that it will deter decent canddiates from putting themselves forward for public office in the future and we will be left with hard necks and former murderers to choose from


----------



## Time

Bertie come back all is forgiven!


----------



## PaddyBloggit

No it isn't Bertie .....


----------



## Purple

paddybloggit said:


> no it isn't bertie .....



+1


----------



## Husker

Purple said:


> I think Gallagher's links with FF will help him. Over 40% of the country used to vote for them and they’ve spent the last year being told that they were idiots (and possibly crooks) ever to do so. He may be getting a protest vote of sorts.


 
Was thinking that too.  A way for Fianna Fail voters to vote Fianna Fail with a clean conscience.


----------



## thedaras

I have been looking at all the candidates and came across this..
http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/through-the-eyes-of-a-dragon-2072647.html

Some things I wasnt aware of ,like; He was married before,


> Sean Gallagher  believes that it was thinking with his head and not his heart that ultimately ended his short marriage in the late Nineties. "She was a beautiful and bright woman," he says.
> 
> "I was more tuned into my head back then. Now I tune into what my heart and gut are telling me. Sometimes we all have to keep making mistakes until we eventually learn the lesson." (They married in 1997. "It lasted just over two years. Divorced and church annulled ... ")


And,he seemed surprised at the amount of money spent on hair;


> There are no such problems with communication with his girlfriend Trish O'Connor. "A brunette with some shades of red, which sometimes tends to vary for some inexplicable reason after visiting the hairdresser." Bald-as-a-snooker-ball Sean says that Trish, the sales rep for Munster for Vichy Skin Care, recently spent as much on one visit to the hairdresser as he spent in the last decade.


And,he was on the board of FAS,


> He drives a VW Tourag jeep -- "a bit like myself," he says, "functionable, strong but not flashy". Sean, who was appointed to the board of FAS last month, has come straight from his first board meeting in FAS to meet me today in the Shelbourne. What did you think of the disgraceful happenings at FAS last year"That was last year. You have to learn from the past and make sure it doesn't happen again. The key thing about the board on FAS is that it is not just government money; it is taxpayers' money. It is about value for money and being relevant to your target market -- the people who need to get back into the job market. How can I be of service? That is the new currency."


Nothing wrong with any of the above,but I just dont know enough about this guy,apart from he was connected with Fianna Fail..He is a business man,and he was on Dragons den.


----------



## Ceist Beag

Pretty sure attention will focus on Gallagher this week given his massive lead in the polls. I have to agree with Higgins point yesterday about what exactly Gallagher has done in the past 15 years. I'm quite amazed that he is at 40% in the polls. I don't have a problem with him, he has come across very well in the panel interviews to date but surely that isn't enough to base a vote for President on? What exactly has he achieved that warrants him being such a hot favourite at this point?


----------



## thedaras

Oh, can I just add that I found this website 

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2011/09/28/meanwhile-in-montrose-3/ 

 where there is a link to his "Engagement photos"

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2011/09/28/meanwhile-in-montrose-3/

Which are very nice.


----------



## thedaras

Ceist Beag,  could be that staunch FF ers ,are having their come back day,that they see him as one of them and feel it will give the party a boost on the road to recovery?


----------



## DB74

Ceist Beag said:


> What exactly has he achieved that warrants him being such a hot favourite at this point?



It's not what he has done, it's what he hasn't done

1. He hasn't sat in the Dail as a career politician and is now looking for a nice cushy retirement in the Park

2. He hasn't been involved in any terrorist organisations

3. He hasn't ridden the gravy train by getting appointed to multiple State boards / quangos

4. He hasn't written any letters to foreign (or Irish) courts to plead for clemency on behalf of former partners recently convicted of sexual offences against minors

5. He hasn't taken out American citizenship or sang in the Eurovision Song Contest


----------



## Complainer

DB74 said:


> 3. He hasn't ridden the gravy train by getting appointed to multiple State boards / quangos


Eh, FÁS anyone?

But enough of the diversions - let's look at his real track record. Let's look at how the great entrepreneur's greatest skill seems to be getting large public grants. €26k for his first company, and he repaid €19k when threatened with court proceedings. €860k for his second company, which closely matches the amount of cash taken out of the company by himself and his fellow director.

But it is clear that the closet FF supporters aren't bothered by any of this, and are taking the opportunity to come back out of the closet, just a little bit.


----------



## DB74

Complainer said:


> Eh, FÁS anyone?



Basic maths tells you that one is not a multiple!


----------



## Ceist Beag

thedaras said:


> Ceist Beag,  could be that staunch FF ers ,are having their come back day,that they see him as one of them and feel it will give the party a boost on the road to recovery?


Quite possibly thedaras. Or alternatively who is to say these polls are even close to accurate? Personally I don't think he will get anywhere near 40% on the day and I will be surprised if he is the next president. Or maybe I'm just hoping that someone with such an unimpressive background in terms of actual achievements won't become our head of state!



DB74 said:


> 1. He hasn't sat in the Dail as a career politician and is now looking for a nice cushy retirement in the Park


Doesn't that just sum up how jaundiced the view of a politician has become tho! I mean personally, give me a career politician any day over a failed businessman! At least someone like Michael D (I presume it is he you refer to) has some worthwhile achievements to his name in terms of public service.


----------



## T McGibney

Complainer said:


> But it is clear that the closet FF supporters aren't bothered by any of this, and are taking the opportunity to come back out of the closet, just a little bit.



There is no such thing as a closet FF supporter. FF didn't put up an official candidate this time around and its obvious that many/most FF supporters have openly plumped for Gallagher. At least that's what I'm hearing from people I'm talking to.


----------



## liaconn

DB74 said:


> It's not what he has done, it's what he hasn't done
> 
> 1. He hasn't sat in the Dail as a career politician and is now looking for a nice cushy retirement in the Park
> 
> 2. He hasn't been involved in any terrorist organisations
> 
> 3. He hasn't ridden the gravy train by getting appointed to multiple State boards / quangos
> 
> 4. He hasn't written any letters to foreign (or Irish) courts to plead for clemency on behalf of former partners recently convicted of sexual offences against minors
> 
> 5. He hasn't taken out American citizenship or sang in the Eurovision Song Contest


 
I agree with this. I think people are defaulting to Gallagher because they just cannot bear to vote for any of the others. If there was a couple of strong players in the field he wouldn't really stand a chance.


----------



## T McGibney

Ceist Beag said:


> give me a career politician any day over a failed businessman!



nothing to do with Sean Gallagher but it alarms me to see the term 'failed businessman' being used in this way. How on earth will be ever have a proper enterprise culture in this country if entrepreneurs are personally derided if they have experienced business failure?


----------



## Ceist Beag

T McGibney said:


> nothing to do with Sean Gallagher but it alarms me to see the term 'failed businessman' being used in this way. How on earth will be ever have a proper enterprise culture in this country if entrepreneurs are personally derided if they have experienced business failure?



appreciate the point T but I guess I was just equating one disparaging term with another! I mean why is the term "career politician" such a negative one? Someone who has spent their life serving the public? Ok I know the answer is because so many people think they are all serving themselves first and foremost but it's a shame that the actions of the minority colour the majority.


----------



## T McGibney

To be honest, I think the comparision is just ridiculous. We clearly need more entrepreneurs in this country. By definition, some entrepreneurs succeed and some fail. We won't incentivise new entrepreneurs by chastising and labelling those who fail. 

We don't particularly need more career politicians.


----------



## Ceist Beag

Are we still talking about the presidential election here T? Or are you just off on a rant about getting the economy going? My points are in the context of who we want as President!


----------



## T McGibney

I'm not on a rant about anything. I just made the point that I was alarmed by your use of the term 'failed businessman' as a term of derision. Perhaps you could withdraw it and we could move on...


----------



## Ceist Beag

I most certainly won't withdraw it! If the term "career politician" is viewed as a negative to being a suitable President then I fully stand over using the term "failed businessman" as a negative to being a suitable President. Don't see why you are so alarmed at this personally. Now can we get back on topic?


----------



## T McGibney

Ceist Beag said:


> I most certainly won't withdraw it! If the term "career politician" is viewed as a negative to being a suitable President then I fully stand over using the term "failed businessman" as a negative to being a suitable President. *Don't see why you are so alarmed at this personally*. Now can we get back on topic?



Have I not explained why? 

I would count being a 'failed businessman' as a good reason to vote for Gallagher above all other candidates. On the other hand, I would count his illegal directors loan as a very good reason to not to vote for him.


----------



## Complainer

DB74 said:


> Basic maths tells you that one is not a multiple!


Ah I see now. So membership of one board - FÁS in particular - is a good thing, but membership of two or more boards is a bad thing. 



T McGibney said:


> There is no such thing as a closet FF supporter. FF didn't put up an official candidate this time around and its obvious that many/most FF supporters have openly plumped for Gallagher. At least that's what I'm hearing from people I'm talking to.


The closet FF supporters are the ones who don't admit to being FF when opinion polls of party preference are taken, leading to readings of 10%-15% for FF. But when a presidential election comes along, they vote for the FF candidate. 

As somebody pointed out in [broken link removed], you don't get to be on the National Executive of any political party without being deeply embedded in that party.


----------



## T McGibney

Complainer said:


> The closet FF supporters are the ones who don't admit to being FF when opinion polls of party preference are taken, leading to readings of 10%-15% for FF. But when a presidential election comes along, they vote for the FF candidate.



There are a lot of people out there who are Fianna Fail supporters but who, at least for the moment, won't vote or express a preference for FF until the dust has cleared from the scandalous carry-on of the Ahern/Cowen regimes. But they remain FF supporters.



Complainer said:


> As somebody pointed out in [broken link removed], you don't get to be on the National Executive of any political party without being deeply embedded in that party.



Ah sure we all know that. The more Gallagher's FF links have been publicised, the more his popularity has risen.


----------



## The_Banker

Coming into work this morning I found a Martin McGuinness flyer under my car.

Old habits die hard I guess.


----------



## DB74

The_Banker said:


> Coming into work this morning I found a Martin McGuinness flyer under my car.
> 
> Old habits die hard I guess.



I actually did LOL at this


----------



## Purple

T McGibney said:


> By definition, some entrepreneurs succeed and some fail.



I’d expand on that a little; I’d say that there are few entrepreneurs who haven’t both succeeded and failed.

I don’t think Gallagher is anywhere near the calibre of Mary McAleese or Mary Robinson but he’s probably better than any of the alternatives. It’s a shame that after a general election where I didn’t want any party in power I now have to vote in a Presidential election where I don’t want any of the candidates to win.

Here’s my view of the choices:
Dana – Christian right, Socially Conservative anti-EU. Not credible as a candidate. No pluses.

McGuiness – Former(?) IRA, represents a party that didn’t recognise our government as legitimate until recently. Very strongly far Left. Internationally will be seen as a former terrorist who supports current terrorists. On the plus side does have a story to tell in being a key figure in the peace process.

Mitchell – Unremarkable political career. No charisma and no charm. Bland in the extreme but would be competent and wouldn’t cause any problems. 

Davis – Seems to rub people the wrong way. Comes across as an opportunist. Hard to see the upside.

Norris – Way too many skeletons in the closet, way too many unanswered questions. A loose cannon who couldn’t help using the office as a vehicle to forward his own agenda.  Has shown very bad judgement in the past. Internationally would be seen as strongly anti-Israeli and anti-American. 

Higgins – probably one of the most intellectually gifted men Ireland has ever produced. He knows just about everything about everything and has experience in just about every facet of life... at least that’s what he seems to think himself. Comes across as smug and arrogant. Will be seen internationally as anti-American.   
On the positive side he does understand what the job entails and he has the experience to do the job properly. I don’t see him being a career politician as being a bad thing. While I disagree with some of his views is it unquestionable that he has dedicated his life to public service.

Gallagher – No experience and no real track record. The talk of being a President for job creation is nonsense. The stories about his business history are not worth talking about. They may seem like issues for people who have never set up or run a business (i.e. Labour Party supporters) but taking out a directors loan and repaying it as soon as your accountant tells you that you shouldn’t have done it is no big deal. Getting grants to set up and/or expand a business is also not a crime. Some may see attempts to create jobs as a good thing.
He’ll probably not make a balls of things but he’ll hardly go down in the history books as one of the countries greats.
He’s in the lead because he’s a clean vote for FF supporters and floating voters dislike his less than any of the rest. 
It’s amazing that he’s doing so well despite the best efforts of the Labour Parties pamphlet (the Irish Times) and their TV station (RTE), not to mention the Indo (FG’s newspaper).


----------



## Mpsox

Personnely I'd consider Gallagher a businessman who had a failed business rather then a failed businessman. I've never met an entrepreneur that never had a failure and we should be praising people with some get up and go rather then picking holes in how well he's done

As for his FF links, if you don't like FF or don't want to vote for someone with FF connections, your options are limited. Basically if you don't want to vote for Gallagher then you can vote for

Mary Davis, appointed to loads of boards by FF
Michael D, once a member of FF in his youth and sat in cabinet in the 90s with Ahern and Cowan
Dana, who swoar an other rejecting allegiance to this country
McGuiness, former terrorist who was a member of a party that failed to recognise just about any Govt on these islands. Also seems to be running for president of someplace called "Down here". Can't wait to see him pinning medals on Irish soldiers in the Lebannon (like Mary Mc did last week) given that he knows who murdered their colleagues (or could at least find out with a couple of phone calls) and hasn't told the Gardai
Gay Mitchell

Personally, at this moment in time, Gallagher it probably is for me

Also the fact that the only 2 candiidates for which no "dirt" has appeared is Higgins and Mitchell. Given that FG have admitted that in the last election, they tried to smear McAleese as being a Sinn Fein sympathiser and tried to dig up any much they could on her, I think not voting for any of the Govt candidates might send a message that there should be more to politics then muckraking


----------



## Purple

Complainer said:


> Ah I see now. So membership of one board - FÁS in particular - is a good thing, but membership of two or more boards is a bad thing.



He's just joined the board of FAS. He applied for the position after seeing an advert in a national newspaper. He said that he's taking no salary from the post.


----------



## Latrade

I look at this analysis and media analysis and debates and statements and wonder when the we started treating this as if we were looking for the next FDR (that's just an example of a president during hard times before that debate kicks off).

The role involves 90% of time opening schools, community centres and giving speeches at charity and buisness events. Once in a while you're asked to sign something into power. You don't even get to keep the pen.

So McGuinness can be a jobs ambassador and disagree with austerity measures, but it's futile. (but begs the question as to how much he is stopping the austerity measures in the North or creating jobs there, or is it a matter of those cuts are yet to fully come and he's jumping ship before he has to agree to them?)

All of them can talk about their respect abroad, who they can phone and all that tosh. Can you smile for a camera, can you use a pair of scissors, can you pull that cord, can you sign where we tell you to sign?

In reality the debate should be a series of ceremonial ribbons and see who can cut them the quickest before the ceremonial plaque revealing.


----------



## Firefly

Purple;1213810Higgins... While I disagree with some of his views is it unquestionable that he has dedicated his life to public service.
[/QUOTE said:
			
		

> This job has the potential for someone to set up a massive gravy train for themselves (boards, books, speeches etc etc) and one of the main reasons why I'll be voting for Michael D is that I think he, more than anyone else, will put the country first for a change.
> 
> I think being a good politician is an asset for this position - the president will come into contact with senior figures from all walks of life and I feel that Michael D here would be better at this than the others....he would be less likely to offend anyone.


----------



## Complainer

Latrade said:


> The role involves 90% of time opening schools, community centres and giving speeches at charity and buisness events.


The fact that this has generally been the role TO DATE does not mean that the role is limited to this. There are actually very few limitations on what the President can do. The limitations relate to speeches made abroad, afaik. The country badly need leadership to lead us out of our current disastrous situation. This role was an ideal opportunity to get someone who can do this.

Unless there is an Enterprise Ireland grant going, I can't see Gallagher providing inspirational leadership.


----------



## Purple

Firefly said:


> This job has the potential for someone to set up a massive gravy train for themselves (boards, books, speeches etc etc) and one of the main reasons why I'll be voting for Michael D is that I think he, more than anyone else, will put the country first for a change.
> 
> I think being a good politician is an asset for this position - the president will come into contact with senior figures from all walks of life and I feel that Michael D here would be better at this than the others....he would be less likely to offend anyone.



I was thinking about that after I wrote it. Michael D must be a rich man as things stand; Ministerial pension, TD pension, Lecturer and author.


----------



## Purple

Complainer said:


> The fact that this has generally been the role TO DATE does not mean that the role is limited to this. There are actually very few limitations on what the President can do. The limitations relate to speeches made abroad, afaik. *The country badly need leadership to lead us out of our current disastrous situation. This role was an ideal opportunity to get someone who can do this*.



The Irish President is not our leader. 
That job falls to Enda.

Anyway, do you think that Michael Twee will suddenly become inspirational? If so he's been hiding that light under a bushel very successfully for quite some time.


----------



## T McGibney

Michael D's comments today, quoted on rte.ie, will go down like a lead balloon amongst the small-scale entrepreneurs and amateur property investors that have been flocking to Gallagher in recent weeks.



> Mr Higgins said the pair stand for different versions of Ireland.
> The Labour candidate said he never had a share, never had a company and was "100 miles away" from the Celtic Tiger.
> He said people should ask where he and Seán Gallagher were for the past  15 years. He said he was in the Dáil, making the case against the  excesses of the Celtic Tiger boom.


Its a very bad move in this campaign for any candidate to portray themselves as having been immune from the craziness of the bubble, and its consequences. 

And nobody likes hearing anyone in authority say 'I told you so'


----------



## Purple

T McGibney said:


> Its a very bad move in this campaign for any candidate to portray themselves as having been immune from the craziness of the bubble, and its consequences.
> 
> And nobody likes hearing anyone in authority say 'I told you so'



True, but he is in the Labour Party so it’s in the blood. 

I don’t remember Michael D railing against the excesses of the Celtic Tiger and I do try to keep up with politics and current affairs. That, for me, means one of two things;
1.	Michael D is not being entirely accurate in what he’s saying, gilding the Lilly as it were.

                                                              Or

2.	Nobody’s that interested in what he says and so it’s not reported. Hardly a ringing endorsement of his charisma and leadership qualities.


----------



## Ceist Beag

Purple said:


> I’d expand on that a little; I’d say that there are few entrepreneurs who haven’t both succeeded and failed.
> 
> I don’t think Gallagher is anywhere near the calibre of Mary McAleese or Mary Robinson but he’s probably better than any of the alternatives. It’s a shame that after a general election where I didn’t want any party in power I now have to vote in a Presidential election where I don’t want any of the candidates to win.
> 
> Here’s my view of the choices:
> Dana – Christian right, Socially Conservative anti-EU. Not credible as a candidate. No pluses.
> 
> McGuiness – Former(?) IRA, represents a party that didn’t recognise our government as legitimate until recently. Very strongly far Left. Internationally will be seen as a former terrorist who supports current terrorists. On the plus side does have a story to tell in being a key figure in the peace process.
> 
> Mitchell – Unremarkable political career. No charisma and no charm. Bland in the extreme but would be competent and wouldn’t cause any problems.
> 
> Davis – Seems to rub people the wrong way. Comes across as an opportunist. Hard to see the upside.
> 
> Norris – Way too many skeletons in the closet, way too many unanswered questions. A loose cannon who couldn’t help using the office as a vehicle to forward his own agenda.  Has shown very bad judgement in the past. Internationally would be seen as strongly anti-Israeli and anti-American.
> 
> Higgins – probably one of the most intellectually gifted men Ireland has ever produced. He knows just about everything about everything and has experience in just about every facet of life... at least that’s what he seems to think himself. Comes across as smug and arrogant. Will be seen internationally as anti-American.
> On the positive side he does understand what the job entails and he has the experience to do the job properly. I don’t see him being a career politician as being a bad thing. While I disagree with some of his views is it unquestionable that he has dedicated his life to public service.
> 
> Gallagher – No experience and no real track record. The talk of being a President for job creation is nonsense. The stories about his business history are not worth talking about. They may seem like issues for people who have never set up or run a business (i.e. Labour Party supporters) but taking out a directors loan and repaying it as soon as your accountant tells you that you shouldn’t have done it is no big deal. Getting grants to set up and/or expand a business is also not a crime. Some may see attempts to create jobs as a good thing.
> He’ll probably not make a balls of things but he’ll hardly go down in the history books as one of the countries greats.
> He’s in the lead because he’s a clean vote for FF supporters and floating voters dislike his less than any of the rest.
> It’s amazing that he’s doing so well despite the best efforts of the Labour Parties pamphlet (the Irish Times) and their TV station (RTE), not to mention the Indo (FG’s newspaper).


I'd have to agree with a lot of that Purple. It's good to see some debate taking place here at last as up until now it has been a very low key build up to the election. Despite my earlier statements about SG I still haven't made my mind up who to vote for and ultimately it will probably come down to either him or MH. My concern with SG is the real lack of any track record in public service but that said, as Latrade has pointed out, the role of a President is much more a ceremonial one than anything else so that isn't such a big factor. I guess for me the question moreso is which of the two can make the role of President more relevant to us all by continuing to build on the work done by Mary McAleese. To be perfectly honest I'm really quite underwhelmed with the choice being put to us - it really is a matter of eliminating those you definitely don't want rather than choosing the person you really do want!


----------



## Latrade

Purple said:


> True, but he is in the Labour Party so it’s in the blood.
> 
> I don’t remember Michael D railing against the excesses of the Celtic Tiger and I do try to keep up with politics and current affairs. That, for me, means one of two things;
> 1.    Michael D is not being entirely accurate in what he’s saying, gilding the Lilly as it were.
> 
> Or
> 
> 2.    Nobody’s that interested in what he says and so it’s not reported. Hardly a ringing endorsement of his charisma and leadership qualities.


 
3. Was the very definition of champagne socialist to begin with.


----------



## Purple

Latrade said:


> 3. Was the very definition of champagne socialist to begin with.



Good point.
Does anyone know what Michael D’s stance was when Democratic Left took over the Labour Party?


----------



## Shawady

I agree it's a poor field but I think there are couple of things Sean Gallager has done that has made a connection with people.
When he got the support of the 4 county councils he informed the other councils that promised to support him that he did not need and thus made it easier for other independents to get in the field. 
He also made a suggestion of sending one leaflet covering all candidates in the post rather than senidng seven. This could have saved 10 million euro.

I think these type of suggestions have made him come accross as practical and "non-politician", which is what a lot of the public want for the presidency.


----------



## Latrade

Purple said:


> Good point.
> Does anyone know what Michael D’s stance was when Democratic Left took over the Labour Party?


 
I was being a tad OTT, but that's more because Michael D has a great record internationally and nationally for culture and peace. Probably the most "presidential" of the lot. But not a word of that, instead he's resorting to catty comments that make out that being in anyway in business over the last 20 years is bad.

And let's not forget, that people can originally be involved with FF but chose a different political route can't the MDH? 

There's a pattern with two of the most popular candidates at the moment, in that these are the two who have had the most negative comments and stories against them. 

It really was MDH's to lose if he'd have just focussed on his record and how that translates to being president. No other candidate comes close to that.


----------



## TarfHead

Shawady said:


> .. sending one leaflet .. rather than senidng seven .. could have saved 10 million euro.


 
That figure seems very high for postage. Was it ever validated ?

If, as the polls suggest, Sean Gallagher is to be our next President, I think history will view this period of time as being bedevilled by uncertainty and a struggle for meaning. His election will reflect that, and not his own qualities and record.


----------



## Latrade

Shawady said:


> I agree it's a poor field but I think there are couple of things Sean Gallager has done that has made a connection with people.
> When he got the support of the 4 county councils he informed the other councils that promised to support him that he did not need and thus made it easier for other independents to get in the field.
> He also made a suggestion of sending one leaflet covering all candidates in the post rather than senidng seven. This could have saved 10 million euro.
> 
> I think these type of suggestions have made him come accross as practical and "non-politician", which is what a lot of the public want for the presidency.


 
I really think the negativity has had a massive effect on some neutrals, possibly the "failed business man attacks".


----------



## Shawady

TarfHead said:


> That figure seems very high for postage. Was it ever validated ?


 
They did discuss it on the Pat Kenny show one morning. From recollection, an election leaflet is sent to everyone that is entitled to vote. So if there are 4 people over 18 living a house, all 4 will receive a leaflet for each candidate.
I think a figure of 1.7 million people was mentioned, which multiplied by 7 equals 11.9 million leaflets. Postage is 55 cent so that would come in at 6.5 million euro to deliver. If only one leaflet was delivered, postage would be 1/7th of that at just under 1 million euro so a saving of 5.5 million euro.
I don't know how they got it to 10 million euro but they did tot it up on the day. Maybe it related to savings made on printing them?


----------



## TarfHead

Shawady said:


> I don't know how they got it to 10 million euro but they did tot it up on the day. Maybe it related to savings made on printing them?


 
Considering all such leaflets went direct from my postbox to my green bin, it's a waste.


----------



## Purple

Latrade said:


> I really think the negativity has had a massive effect on some neutrals, possibly the "failed business man attacks".



If every failed businessman (or failed businesswoman) in the country voted for him he's win hands down.


----------



## liaconn

Maybe he will also now convince politicians that in this day and age of modern technology, sticking posters up on lamp posts is a total waste of time.


----------



## Shawady

Thats another thing that probably struck a cord with people Liaconn.
Wouldn't it be nice to prove someone could be succesful in an election without plastering those posters all over the country.


----------



## DB74

Another thing about Gallagher is that he has really come across as someone who isn't interested in the whole mud-slinging aspect of politics and who obviously despaired at the way some of the debates turned into slanging matches, something which I, for one, am wholeheartedly sick off.


----------



## cork

DB74 said:


> Another thing about Gallagher is that he has really come across as someone who isn't interested in the whole mud-slinging aspect of politics and who obviously despaired at the way some of the debates turned into slanging matches, something which I, for one, am wholeheartedly sick off.



That is why I hope that Gallagher wins. He is at least being positive.


----------



## thedaras

Oh dear..did posters watch the debate on RTE with Pat Kenny?
Best view of the year for me..even worth the price of the licence!
It was unbelievable ,Im sure it will be up on the player soon


----------



## Sunny

Did Gallagher manage to throw it all away at the last? Made me a little bit ill thinking that one of those people will be the next president.


----------



## Leper

Gallagher's Fianna Fáil connections are finally catching up with him.  I think he blew it last night.

At last an election with a photo-finish.


----------



## Ceist Beag

Was like a wet cloth slapping me in the face watching that. Once McGuinness started on him he was a goner as nothing surer but that McGuinness would have sources with information!! Nice try SG but the sheen wore off big time last night!


----------



## Mpsox

Personally I thought it was a bit rich of McGuiness to be talking about Gallagher collecting envelopes given the amount of cash his cronies collected from the Northern Bank robbery a few years ago. Have to say it's not a very inspiring collection of candidates, but then again, FG did their very best to smear Mary Mc 14 years ago and she turned out ok.


----------



## horusd

That envelope business could hole him below the waterline, but given that none of them are inspiring I don't know who will gain. I'm not sure I'll bother voting for any of them.


----------



## Duke of Marmalade

thedaras said:


> Oh dear..did posters watch the debate on RTE with Pat Kenny?
> Best view of the year for me..even worth the price of the licence!
> It was unbelievable ,Im sure it will be up on the player soon


It was fantastic. I was keeping an eye on Betfair. Gallagher started the program at 1/4 and finished it at 2/1. Gallagher made every mistake in the book. "I don't recollect (collecting 5K from some guy for Ff)". "I do remember now, that guy was a fuel smuggler". "I don't know how much money he gave, it was in an envelope".  And the crowd were practically boohing him.


----------



## The_Banker

All along Sean Gallagher was playing down his Fianna Fail links. Now I think Fianna Fail will try to play down there Sean Gallagher links.


----------



## Sunny

Mpsox said:


> Personally I thought it was a bit rich of McGuiness to be talking about Gallagher collecting envelopes given the amount of cash his cronies collected from the Northern Bank robbery a few years ago. Have to say it's not a very inspiring collection of candidates, but then again, FG did their very best to smear Mary Mc 14 years ago and she turned out ok.


 
I don't think anyone was fooled by McGuinness but Gallagher was so so poor at dealing with the issue. This fundraising has been talked about for a week. Why didn't he deal with everything in his own way instead of leaving himself open to such an ambush. To initially deny the accusation, then to call him a fuel smuggler (that he still invited), to then talk about possibly getting an 'envelope', to then at no stage saying it was inappropriate for businessmen to be paying €5k to meet the Taoiseach which is why this is such a problem was car crash tv.


----------



## Mpsox

Sunny said:


> I don't think anyone was fooled by McGuinness but Gallagher was so so poor at dealing with the issue. This fundraising has been talked about for a week. Why didn't he deal with everything in his own way instead of leaving himself open to such an ambush. To initially deny the accusation, then to call him a fuel smuggler (that he still invited), to then talk about possibly getting an 'envelope', to then at no stage saying it was inappropriate for businessmen to be paying €5k to meet the Taoiseach which is why this is such a problem was car crash tv.


 
That is SG's biggest weakness, he seems unable to think on the spot or to do what all politicians do when asked a question they don't like, give a vague answer to something completely unrelated. He wasn't impressive on this occassion. Mind you, Shinners connected to fuel smuglers, I'd never have guessed


----------



## Shawady

It was an amazing moment in the debate alright. SG initially denied he took money until Pat Kenny put it to later in the show that SF were on twitter saying they were going to produce the person today. He then tried to damage the guys credibility by saying he was a convicted criminal and fuel smuggler. IMO, this made it worse as he more or less admitted that he took 5K from a convicted criminal. Was the money the proceed of criminal activity?

His whole defence of 'no recollection' and 'not konwing if there was a cheque' is up there with Bertie winning his money on the horses.

SF may have handed the presidency to Michael D.


----------



## thedaras

Its just getting worse, the Presidential campaign ,and the rain!
http://www.independent.ie/national-...up-to-euro5000-for-grants-advice-2915300.html


----------



## Shawady

This post will be deleted if not edited immediately, this has been one dirty campaign.
The polling might actually be interesting on Friday as it's impossible to predict how last night's debate will play out. I thought Norris gave his strongest performance so far and I wonder if there are people not admitting to voting for SF in the polls but may do so on the day itself?


----------



## cork

The campaign was pretty dirty.

Collecting money for a polical party is not wrong.

How are partys to be funded? By personal taxation?

At least Gallagher has not spend money on putting up posters.

Find it hard with the tought of McGuiness throwing stones.

The McCabe Family deserve specific answers from this guy.


----------



## csirl

I'm very surprised that there has been very little talk of Micheal D's record on International affairs. Considering that the President will be regarded Internationally as the most important person in Ireland and will have to meet a lot of foreign leaders, how can this be overlooked in the campaign. 

He has a track record of supporting unelected despots/terrorists instead of democracy e.g Saddam Hussein/Iraq, the Palestinian stuff he dabbles in. Do we really want someone like this being the international face of our country? How do people think this will go down among our most important economic partners i.e. UK & USA? If you are CEO of an International corporation thinking of moving to Ireland or considering moving out - what message does this country send by electing someone who is perceived as a left wing, anti-western society, anti-democracy, anti-multinational President?


----------



## thedaras

Are you all tuned in to Pat Kenny?
Gallagher very rattled,very angry,very defensive.


----------



## csirl

This stuff re: Higgins is extremely concerning.

http://www.markhumphrys.com/michael.d.higgins.html


----------



## Deiseblue

thedaras said:


> Are you all tuned in to Pat Kenny?
> Gallagher very rattled,very angry,very defensive.



He is being absolutely torn apart on the show.

His naiveté is staggering & essentially Pat Kenny has handed him a shovel & Mr. Gallagher is digging himself an ever deeper hole.


----------



## Sunny

csirl said:


> This stuff re: Higgins is extremely concerning.
> 
> http://www.markhumphrys.com/michael.d.higgins.html


 
I agree with concerns about Michael D but using a nobody who describes themselves as  Irish. Atheist. Liberal-right. Anti-jihad. Pro-American. Pro-Israel as a source probably isn't the greatest idea.


----------



## Holtend82

Gay Mitchell insulting the publics questions was quality, he is on a different planet thinking he can win anything. All he is doing is damaging his party.


----------



## csirl

Sunny said:


> I agree with concerns about Michael D but using a nobody who describes themselves as Irish. Atheist. Liberal-right. Anti-jihad. Pro-American. Pro-Israel as a source probably isn't the greatest idea.


 
I agree that the pictures and links to other articles are the real sources rather than this guys badly written commentary.


----------



## liaconn

Did anyone else think the other candidates' supporters in the audience were a disgrace, booing and jeering as if they were at a pantomime?


----------



## dereko1969

cork said:


> The campaign was pretty dirty.
> 
> Collecting money for a polical party is not wrong.
> 
> How are partys to be funded? By personal taxation?
> 
> At least Gallagher has not spend money on putting up posters.
> 
> Find it hard with the tought of McGuiness throwing stones.
> 
> The McCabe Family deserve specific answers from this guy.


 
Fianna Fáil supporter defending Gallagher - what a shock! 

Do you think it's a good idea to collect money from (in Gallagher's own words) a convicted fuel smuggler?


----------



## Bronte

Shawady said:


> SG initially denied he took money until Pat Kenny put it to later in the show that SF were on twitter saying they were going to produce the person today.


 
I think that says a whole lot more about Sinn Fein than Sean Gallagher.  


Could someone clarify for me, was Sean Gallagher not a successful businessman as on this thread it's coming out like he failed?  I thought he has many businesses that succeeded and he became wealthy from this?


----------



## csirl

I think the polls are wrong in this campaign. There is a very strong tendency in this country for people to vote along party lines. While loyal party members/supporters of the various parties may not like their candidate, when it comes to polling day, they'll put their no. 1 beside this candidate. 

It's safe to say that FG and Labour have core votes in at least the 15-20% range, as does FF (which will go to Gallagher in this campaign). Even with a poor campaign, it is difficult to accept that Mitchell is only at 6% - this would mean that even FG activists will not vote for him, which simply will not happen. SF has a core of c.10%.

So, we can expect that all of the 4 candidates who have recently been or are currently members of political parties will easily get through the first couple of rounds of eliminations. With such a big field, I expect that all 3 Independents will be eliminated before any of this 4. However, none of the 4 will have anything close to a quota, so it will all come down to transfers.


----------



## csirl

To expand more and maybe make some predictions. I think the independent transfers will scatter around the other candidates. I think after the initial rounds, we could be left with Michael D in the lead, trailed by Mitchell and Gallagher (with c.20% each) and McGuinness in 4th, though not by much. I have a feeling that McGuinnesses transfers will not be enough to get Michael D elected (I think Michael D will not poll as well as the polls suggest - similar to what happened in the general election that Labour thought they could win). The key to the election will be who of Mitchell and Gallagher gets eliminated before the final count and where their votes go.


----------



## liaconn

csirl said:


> To expand more and maybe make some predictions. I think the independent transfers will scatter around the other candidates. I think after the initial rounds, we could be left with Michael D in the lead, trailed by Mitchell and Gallagher (with c.20% each) and McGuinness in 4th, though not by much. I have a feeling that McGuinnesses transfers will not be enough to get Michael D elected (I think Michael D will not poll as well as the polls suggest - similar to what happened in the general election that Labour thought they could win). The key to the election will be who of Mitchell and Gallagher gets eliminated before the final count and where their votes go.


 
I can't see Mitchell getting anything like 20%.


----------



## RonanC

csirl said:


> This stuff re: Higgins is extremely concerning.
> 
> http://www.markhumphrys.com/michael.d.higgins.html


 
Since when did Israel become a front line State of the West? It is a Middle-East State that has the support of some Western States. 

"Michael D. Higgins opposes the brave allied effort in Iraq".... oh yeah, let me see, an illegal invasion based on lies. He was 100% to support this protest, like the majority of the Western world. 

I'm not going to even read the rest of it as it looks like pro Israel progaganda to me


----------



## Purple

csirl said:


> This stuff re: Higgins is extremely concerning.
> 
> http://www.markhumphrys.com/michael.d.higgins.html



Whether you agree with Mark Humphries blog or not his views echo those of the majority of Americans.
We don’t see much inward investment or trade from Nicaragua, Cuba or the West Bank or Gaza. He may or may not be correct in his views but his strongly anti-Israeli and anti-American views would indeed severely damage our relationship with America.


----------



## Purple

RonanC said:


> I'm not going to even read the rest of it as it looks like pro Israel progaganda to me


You are dismissing it on the basis of what it might be. Why not read it and then you can dismiss it on the basis of what it is?


----------



## MrMan

RonanC said:


> Since when did Israel become a front line State of the West? It is a Middle-East State that has the support of some Western States.
> 
> "Michael D. Higgins opposes the brave allied effort in Iraq".... oh yeah, let me see, an illegal invasion based on lies. He was 100% to support this protest, like the majority of the Western world.
> 
> I'm not going to even read the rest of it as it looks like pro Israel progaganda to me



His views will be construed as our views if he gets the job.


----------



## RonanC

MrMan said:


> His views will be construed as our views if he gets the job.


 
Same can be said for Norris, or Dana, or McGuinness.. Everyone has an opinion, everyone has a view. 

Someone who has stood up against a State's violence towards another state is seen as being against that state. How many people protested against the Afgan war, or the Iraq war? Millions did! Are they all anti US? No. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/February_15,_2003_anti-war_protest


----------



## RonanC

Purple said:


> You are dismissing it on the basis of what it might be. Why not read it and then you can dismiss it on the basis of what it is?


 
I'll have a proper read of it so


----------



## Purple

RonanC said:


> Same can be said for Norris, or Dana, or McGuinness.. Everyone has an opinion, everyone has a view.
> 
> Someone who has stood up against a State's violence towards another state is seen as being against that state. How many people protested against the Afgan war, or the Iraq war? Millions did! Are they all anti US? No.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/February_15,_2003_anti-war_protest



I think it’s his one-sided criticism that people have a problem with. 
It’s one thing to be critical of American foreign policy, it’s another to show support and solidarity with a child-killing terrorist who embezzled hundreds of millions of dollars from his own people or repressive communist governments who torture and kill their domestic political opposition. If both sides are blood-soaked extremists then call it as it is. Pretending that one side is on the side of the angels in order to vilify the other means that you approve of their actions.


----------



## T McGibney

MrMan said:


> His views will be construed as our views if he gets the job.



Mary McAleese's Presidency transcended her background as a pro-life activist and failed Fianna Fail election candidate. Hopefully the next President will do likewise.


----------



## RonanC

Purple said:


> I think it’s his one-sided criticism that people have a problem with.


 
But when you say one sided, have you ever heard Higgins protest against the actions of Clinton or the visit of Obama for example? Where was his anti US feeling or protests back in May? In fact, where was the anti-US brigade during that visit?

On Arafat & Ortega, I admit that I do not know enough about them to discuss that point.


----------



## RonanC

T McGibney said:


> Mary McAleese's Presidency transcended her background as a pro-life activist and failed Fianna Fail election candidate. Hopefully the next President will do likewise.


 
+1 That would be my hope for the President also


----------



## onq

Don't worry boys. The next President will have no Fianna Fáil baggage. In fact his closet is bare of skeletons.


----------



## onq

Purple said:


> Whether you agree with Mark Humphries blog or not his views echo those of the majority of Americans.
> We don’t see much inward investment or trade from Nicaragua, Cuba or the West Bank or Gaza. He may or may not be correct in his views but his strongly anti-Israeli and anti-American views would indeed severely damage our relationship with America.



Many Americans I know are up in arms about the actions of the government abroad and in bailing our Wall Street.
They too are concerned about American involvement in the State of Israel and the treatment of the Palestinians.

I want a president whose moral compass won't turn one way and then another because the American President or the Israeli agenda might be disturbed if he didn't agree with the PNAC or whatever.
I want a president who will support human rights and international law and who will help build trade links with emerging economies like Africa and BRICs as opposed to pandering to the influence of America in our affairs.

Plus I'd like our oil and gas back too.


----------



## Purple

Press release from Gallagher;

Independent Presidential candidate, Seán Gallagher has slammed Martin McGuinness and  Sinn Féin’s attempt at ‘political assassination.’

“I have fought a clean campaign beyond reproach now Martin McGuinness and Sinn Féin have come out against me for two reasons. Firstly I called on all candidates and members of the public to come forward with  any information about brutal murder of Detective Garda Gerry McCabe who was killed tragically in performance of his duties in protecting this state and secondly because of my position in the opinion polls.”

“This has made me a target for slurs and untruths.”

 “This was a political assassination attempt by Martin McGuinness and Sinn Féin last night. The person in question Hugh Morgan is a convicted criminal and he loaded the gun while Martin McGuinness pulled the trigger. I told the truth on Frontline.”

“Martin McGuinness said that I visited Hugh Morgan after the event to deliver a photograph and collect the cheque. This is untrue.”

“I am pleased that Fianna Fáil have clarified on the Pat Kenny Show this morning that they received a cheque of €5,000 date the 26th of June 2008 from Mr. Morgan and that this donation was acknowledged and receipted and lodged to their bank account on the 28th of June in advance of the event which was held on the 1st of July.”

“So I could not have collected any cheque from Mr. Morgan after the event when I delivered the photograph, which he was very insistent that he wanted, to him.”

“Today when evidence has emerged that refutes Mr. McGuinness’s claims he has changed his story. This is despite he claims that he spoke to Mr. Morgan only two hours before the debate where Mr. McGuinness levelled these untrue accusations at me. Martin McGuinness is just not credible.”

 “This was a legitimate and legal fundraiser. No banks were robbed and no members of the Gardaí were killed during it.”

“This attempt to slur me and my campaign will not succeed.”

“I urge all my supporters around the country to stay focussed on a positive campaign. Sinn Féin were out to get me. I will fight on in a positive way as I have been for the future and the good of this great country. The people of Ireland will have their say on Thursday.”

ENDS


----------



## Purple

onq said:


> Many Americans I know are up in arms about the actions of the government abroad and in bailing our Wall Street.
> They too are concerned about American involvement in the State of Israel and the treatment of the Palestinians.
> 
> I want a president whose moral compass won't turn one way and then another because the American President or the Israeli agenda might be disturbed if he didn't agree with the PNAC or whatever.
> I want a president who will support human rights and international law and who will help build trade links with emerging economies like Africa and BRICs as opposed to pandering to the influence of America in our affairs.
> 
> Plus I'd like our oil and gas back too.




I'd like one that doesn't damage our trade links with the USA, soon to be our biggest trade partner.
One of us will be happy on Friday


----------



## Ceist Beag

Purple said:


> Press release from Gallagher;
> 
> Independent Presidential candidate, Seán Gallagher has slammed Martin McGuinness and  Sinn Féin’s attempt at ‘political assassination.’
> 
> “I have fought a clean campaign beyond reproach now Martin McGuinness and Sinn Féin have come out against me for two reasons. Firstly I called on all candidates and members of the public to come forward with  any information about brutal murder of Detective Garda Gerry McCabe who was killed tragically in performance of his duties in protecting this state and secondly because of my position in the opinion polls.”
> 
> “This has made me a target for slurs and untruths.”
> 
> “This was a political assassination attempt by Martin McGuinness and Sinn Féin last night. The person in question Hugh Morgan is a convicted criminal and he loaded the gun while Martin McGuinness pulled the trigger. I told the truth on Frontline.”
> 
> “Martin McGuinness said that I visited Hugh Morgan after the event to deliver a photograph and collect the cheque. This is untrue.”
> 
> “I am pleased that Fianna Fáil have clarified on the Pat Kenny Show this morning that they received a cheque of €5,000 date the 26th of June 2008 from Mr. Morgan and that this donation was acknowledged and receipted and lodged to their bank account on the 28th of June in advance of the event which was held on the 1st of July.”
> 
> “So I could not have collected any cheque from Mr. Morgan after the event when I delivered the photograph, which he was very insistent that he wanted, to him.”
> 
> “Today when evidence has emerged that refutes Mr. McGuinness’s claims he has changed his story. This is despite he claims that he spoke to Mr. Morgan only two hours before the debate where Mr. McGuinness levelled these untrue accusations at me. Martin McGuinness is just not credible.”
> 
> “This was a legitimate and legal fundraiser. No banks were robbed and no members of the Gardaí were killed during it.”
> 
> “This attempt to slur me and my campaign will not succeed.”
> 
> “I urge all my supporters around the country to stay focussed on a positive campaign. Sinn Féin were out to get me. I will fight on in a positive way as I have been for the future and the good of this great country. The people of Ireland will have their say on Thursday.”
> 
> ENDS



are you is PR agent Purple?  Personally any doubts I had about SG were confirmed last night - I think he's a lightweight bluffer (admittedly a good one!).


----------



## Marion

> So I could not have collected any cheque from Mr. Morgan *after *the event when I delivered the photograph, which he was very insistent that he wanted, to him.”



So there was obvious communication before the event between SG and Mr Morgan. Was the cheque presented to SG *before *the event as oppposed to *after *the event  by Mr Morgan - the photograph to be delivered after the event.

The statement doesn't clarify how the cheque came into the possession of FF on the 26 only that they received one from Mr Morgan. Was it personally delivered by Mr Morgan? Was it sent by post? Or was it hand delivered by SG or by AN Other?

After a fundraiser, SG travels to the man's home to deliver a photograph.

Seems bizarre!

Marion


----------



## MrMan

T McGibney said:


> Mary McAleese's Presidency transcended her background as a pro-life activist and failed Fianna Fail election candidate. Hopefully the next President will do likewise.



Not exactly issues that have a global impact though?


----------



## cork

Sean Gallagher is a decent guy who ran a positive campaign.

Others were ot to make a mountain out of a moehill.


----------



## T McGibney

MrMan said:


> Not exactly issues that have a global impact though?



The notion of any Irish President having a global impact is extremely fanciful.


----------



## csirl

RonanC said:


> But when you say one sided, have you ever heard Higgins protest against the actions of Clinton or the visit of Obama for example? Where was his anti US feeling or protests back in May? In fact, where was the anti-US brigade during that visit?
> 
> On Arafat & Ortega, I admit that I do not know enough about them to discuss that point.


 
He protested against Reagan.

So, from an American point of view (which people in Ireland may not agree with):

- Michael D was opposed to getting rid of the communist dictators in Eastern Europe and beyond.
- Michael D recently opposed US foreign policy in Iraq which removed Saddam, turned Iraq into a democracy (has had 2 general elections to date) and the consequetial toppling of dictators in Tunisa, Egypt and Libya.

From their point of view, Micheal D is a big supporter of tyranical despots.


----------



## Sunny

As an aside, can I just say that I thought Pat kenny was brilliant last night. Have been a big critic in the past but he really is made for something like that. 

As for the international view of our President, I dont really care. Voting for David Norris would offend the arab world, large parts of the US and indeed many people in Europe. Not a reason not to vote for him. Same with higgins despite his dubious past. Personally, have not got a clue who to vote for.


----------



## Complainer

cork said:


> That is why I hope that Gallagher wins. He is at least being positive.


Positive about his Fianna Fail deep roots? Or positive about his cash collection skills for party donations?



Ceist Beag said:


> are you is PR agent Purple?  Personally any doubts I had about SG were confirmed last night - I think he's a lightweight bluffer (admittedly a good one!).


You got it.


----------



## circle

Marion said:


> So there was obvious communication before the event between SG and Mr Morgan. Was the cheque presented to SG *before *the event as oppposed to *after *the event by Mr Morgan - the photograph to be delivered after the event.
> 
> The statement doesn't clarify how the cheque came into the possession of FF on the 26 only that they received one from Mr Morgan. Was it personally delivered by Mr Morgan? Was it sent by post? Or was it hand delivered by SG or by AN Other?
> 
> After a fundraiser, SG travels to the man's home to deliver a photograph.
> 
> Seems bizarre!
> 
> Marion


 
Mr Morgan has said that Gallagher visited him twice, once before to collect the cheque and once after to drop off the photo. That makes sense.

Gallagher's account still doesn't make sense - he says he might have collected an envelope when he dropped off he photo after the event?


----------



## ontour

Complainer said:


> Or positive about his cash collection skills...





			
				Ceist Beag  said:
			
		

> I think he's a lightweight bluffer (admittedly a good one!).



Possibly two positive attributes for a president !


----------



## horusd

Having no idea who to put first on the ballot paper, this campaign has been about who to put last. I started off with Dana, but she has moved up as the others have moved down. 

Higgins will probably get it, but the thought of 7 yrs of lectures from the Aras makes me groan.


----------



## Purple

Ceist Beag said:


> are you is PR agent Purple?


 Nope, I just saw it and thought it would add to the discussion. It’s strange that his statement was at odds with the FF statement. I’m not a FF member, supporter or voter and haven’t been since the day Bertie took over.



Ceist Beag said:


> Personally any doubts I had about SG were confirmed last night - I think he's a lightweight bluffer (admittedly a good one!).


I agree. He’s shown remarkable naivety over the last 24 hours. He should have said “I don’t know, I’ll get back to you” if he didn’t know or, since he knew that this issue was coming up, he should have just told the truth and then asked Higgins and Mitchell  if they’d ever done any fund-raising for their parties.
I find the whole story strange, as in it’s strange that it’s a story. What’s wrong with legitimate fund raising for a political party?
I remember a story a few years back where it came out that Labour did exactly the same thing with “business leaders” when Ruairi Quinn was Minister for Finance. It’s ironic that at the time FF were making a big deal out of it as well.

Of course McGuiness’s party doesn’t have to engage in that sort of fund raising...


----------



## michaelm

horusd said:


> Having no idea who to put first on the ballot paper, this campaign has been about who to put last. I started off with Dana, but she has moved up as the others have moved down.


It's a bit of a quandary alright.  I have Dana as my number (I have a bet on her to get more 1st prefs than Mary Davis); my 5, 6 & 7 are locked in but my 2, 3 & 4 are up in the air.  A 'none of the above' box would probably romp home.


----------



## Sunny

Purple said:


> .
> 
> 
> I find the whole story strange, as in it’s strange that it’s a story. What’s wrong with legitimate fund raising for a political party?
> I remember a story a few years back where it came out that Labour did exactly the same thing with “business leaders” when Ruairi Quinn was Minister for Finance. It’s ironic that at the time FF were making a big deal out of it as well.
> 
> Of course McGuiness’s party doesn’t have to engage in that sort of fund raising...


 
I agree but I think he made it a story himself. Why he didn't just come out at the beginning and reveal everything is beyond me. People already knew about the FF links. Now, he just comes across as dishonest.

http://www.independent.ie/national-...ed-his-story-on-dinner-donations-2915976.html


----------



## Purple

Sunny said:


> I agree but I think he made it a story himself. Why he didn't just come out at the beginning and reveal everything is beyond me. People already knew about the FF links. Now, he just comes across as dishonest.
> 
> http://www.independent.ie/national-...ed-his-story-on-dinner-donations-2915976.html



I agree. The Labour media are going to town on him. Drivetime yesterday did one of the most disgracefully biased hatchet jobs on him I've ever heard on any Irish radio or TV station.


----------



## Ceist Beag

Sunny said:


> I agree but I think he made it a story himself. Why he didn't just come out at the beginning and reveal everything is beyond me. People already knew about the FF links. Now, he just comes across as dishonest.



Exactly Sunny. If he came out at the very start and said yes I did fund raise, so what, the story would have blown over. He made such a mess of it that people are now (rightly) questioning his honesty. And to use phrases like brown envelope, not knowing what was in it, and even his explanation of the €89K, it all just brought back the FF culture to the fore.


----------



## Sunny

Ceist Beag said:


> Exactly Sunny. If he came out at the very start and said yes I did fund raise, so what, the story would have blown over. He made such a mess of it that people are now (rightly) questioning his honesty. And to use phrases like brown envelope, not knowing what was in it, and even his explanation of the €89K, it all just brought back the FF culture to the fore.


 
The loan is actually more of a story. There are questions to be answered there because what he is claiming doesn't make sense.


----------



## Ceist Beag

Sunny said:


> The loan is actually more of a story. There are questions to be answered there because what he is claiming doesn't make sense.



What Gay Mitchell hinted at made much more sense to me with regard to this loan. It was like listening to Bertie all over again hearing SGs explanation of it!


----------



## Shawady

Ceist Beag said:


> And to use phrases like brown envelope, not knowing what was in it, and even his explanation of the €89K, it all just brought back the FF culture to the fore.


 
Its like the old Lyndon Johnson quote of "Lets accuse him of it anyway and watch him deny it".
When you start using phrases like money in envelope, no recollection, fuel smuggler in your explanation you're losing.

If he had have said from the start he had some role in FF fund raising (which is perfectly legal) but had since left the party for whatever reason, the story would not have been so dramatic.


----------



## TarfHead

To paraphrase Alistair Campbell "if you're still explaining yourself on Day 3, you're toast".


----------



## cork

Complainer said:


> Positive about his Fianna Fail deep roots? Or positive about his cash collection skills for party donations?



Fund-raising from political partys is the norm in many countries.

Are you purposing state funding of political partys?

Membership of policital partys in normal in any democracy.

So too is changing party membership or leaving membership laspe.

All of this is a storm in a tea-cup.


----------



## liaconn

Purple said:


> Nope, I just saw it and thought it would add to the discussion. It’s strange that his statement was at odds with the FF statement. I’m not a FF member, supporter or voter and haven’t been since the day Bertie took over.
> 
> 
> I agree. He’s shown remarkable naivety over the last 24 hours. He should have said “I don’t know, I’ll get back to you” if he didn’t know or, since he knew that this issue was coming up, he should have just told the truth and then asked Higgins and Mitchell if they’d ever done any fund-raising for their parties.
> *I find the whole story strange, as in it’s strange that it’s a story. What’s wrong with legitimate fund raising for a political party?*
> I remember a story a few years back where it came out that Labour did exactly the same thing with “business leaders” when Ruairi Quinn was Minister for Finance. It’s ironic that at the time FF were making a big deal out of it as well.
> 
> Of course McGuiness’s party doesn’t have to engage in that sort of fund raising...


 
I have to say, I agree. While I would never ever have contributed any funds to FF I can't understand the way Gallagher is being treated as if he did something highly irregular and shocking. It's almost being put on the same level as McGuinness's involvement in the IRA atrocities or Norris's intervention in a charge against an adult having sex with a minor. I think this is being blown way way out of perspective. Yes, Gallagher didn't handle it very calmly and professionally but he hasn't committed a crime or been revealed as doing something totally shocking.


----------



## Latrade

As purple says, it really does beg the question as to why this is such an issue. Again, as Sunny indicated, the loan issue is by far a bigger topic that needs answering. 

I think it's a media thing though, they've set up this election to be a much bigger issue than it is, especially with all the debates. Therefore they need things to talk about to continue this line. 

But I still don't get why this issue. Just that two candidates have escaped any real legitimate/exaggerated "stories" and media trials: GM and MDH. 

So just the two candidates from the government then. Coincidentally the only two candidates to have never done or said anything in their past that might in anyway need very public scrutiny.


----------



## Complainer

cork said:


> Fund-raising from political partys is the norm in many countries.
> 
> Are you purposing state funding of political partys?
> 
> Membership of policital partys in normal in any democracy.
> 
> So too is changing party membership or leaving membership laspe.
> 
> All of this is a storm in a tea-cup.



THe issue isn't his membership of FF or his bagman activities. The issue is his Judas denial of FF and his factually untrue denial that he had collected cheques for that particular event. He has been exposed as someone who tells untruths when put under pressure. Is that the kind of President we want?


----------



## Mpsox

Complainer said:


> THe issue isn't his membership of FF or his bagman activities. The issue is his Judas denial of FF and his factually untrue denial that he had collected cheques for that particular event. He has been exposed as someone who tells untruths when put under pressure. Is that the kind of President we want?


 
Isn't that what all politicians do anyway?, except in the case of professional politicians, they lie by answering a different question to the one that was asked. Part of SG's problem is that he isn't as adept at bull**** as some of the others


----------



## Delboy

The guy says he's FF lit, had very little involvement with them, only went to a couple of National Executive meetings ever (no wonder the party is broke!) etc etc. He has tried to ditance himself from that party and the culture that everyone now assoicates with them.

Then this story comes along and he gets in a panic...every party may fund raise along roughly similar lines, but the public assoicate FF mainly with this. He tries to deny it for fear of his real FF colours coming to the fore, and insted has made the whole matter worse for himself.

I agree that the line up is brutal. I've no idea who to vote for.
I can't believe FG have made such a mess of this- they worked this right and they'd be romping home. But as only FG can, they shoot themselves in the foot.
I don't want FF to come back to life this soon (or ever!).
I don't want Labour to get in. Fintan O'Toole and the Irish Times, RTE as mentioned above- the usual left wing media majority in this country have all been shouting for him regardless of perceived bias. And then to see Ivana Bacik rooting again for him last night on VB- I fear she may use his success to make a run for the job next time out herself. And the thought of that makes me want to emmigrate to Zimbabwe.

It really is a dud's race


----------



## Complainer

Mpsox said:


> Isn't that what all politicians do anyway?, except in the case of professional politicians, they lie by answering a different question to the one that was asked.


That's not what Gallagher did. He didn't answer a different question. He stated that he didn't collect cheques for that fundraiser. His denial has turned out to be untrue.


----------



## Purple

Complainer said:


> That's not what Gallagher did. He didn't answer a different question. He stated that he didn't collect cheques for that fundraiser. His denial has turned out to be untrue.



Yep, he turned a minor isue into a major one by putting his foot in it.

One of the biggest skills a President needs is the ability to not say the wrong thing. 
He doesn’t inspire confidence in that area.


----------



## dereko1969

No, we're not part of the "media" and the moratorium doesn't apply to print media either.

The whole point about bag-gate is that it showed SG up to be a spoofer who can't handle off the cuff statements. He could easily have said that he had collected money on behalf of FF as all the other political parties had done, but he didn't he spoofed and just wasn't able to cope with the question in an intelligent fashion. 

Imagine if he's overseas and gets a tricky question that he makes a hames of? He could damage the view of the country, that's why I'd like a safe pair of hands.

Originally I was undecided between MDH and DN but I'm definitely voting MDH now.


----------



## Purple

dereko1969 said:


> No, we're not part of the "media" and the moratorium doesn't apply to print media either.
> 
> The whole point about bag-gate is that it showed SG up to be a spoofer who can't handle off the cuff statements. He could easily have said that he had collected money on behalf of FF as all the other political parties had done, but he didn't he spoofed and just wasn't able to cope with the question in an intelligent fashion.
> 
> Imagine if he's overseas and gets a tricky question that he makes a hames of? He could damage the view of the country, that's why I'd like a safe pair of hands.
> 
> Originally I was undecided between MDH and DN but I'm definitely voting MDH now.


Nobody has asked Michael D any hard questions since the start of the whole Dog & Pony show.


----------



## Sunny

Purple said:


> Nobody has asked Michael D any hard questions since the start of the whole Dog & Pony show.


 
Good point.


----------



## csirl

Sunny said:


> Good point.


 
+1. Michael D isnt without his skeletons. Its almost as if the media decided in advance that they were going to give him an easy ride and nobble every other candidate - which is whats happened.


----------



## Guest105

Purple said:


> Nobody has asked Michael D any hard questions since the start of the whole Dog & Pony show.


 
Maybe there weren't any to ask. I will be voting for him anyway, the only one of the shower I think that is anyway credible.


----------



## TarfHead

Purple said:


> Nobody has asked Michael D any hard questions since the start of the whole Dog & Pony show.


 
I think there's a difference with him. He's been in elections since the 1970s. If there were any skeletons, they'd surely have been revealed by now.

But he hasn't been asked to defend his knee-jerk liberal responses, like to this country's support for US redition flights, or the Palestinian cause. How would that work on visits to USA and Israel as Head of State ?

And I thought his claim, on the last TV debate,  that he, as junior Minister, had created thousands of jobs in the Irish film industry, was risible. And not challenged by anyone.


----------



## Complainer

csirl said:


> +1. Michael D isnt without his skeletons..


Please do tell us more.




TarfHead said:


> But he hasn't been asked to defend his knee-jerk liberal responses, like to this country's support for US redition flights, or the Palestinian cause. How would that work on visits to USA and Israel as Head of State ?


You mustn't have been paying attention. I've seen him responding clearly to these issues a number of times.


TarfHead said:


> And I thought his claim, on the last TV debate,  that he, as junior Minister, had created thousands of jobs in the Irish film industry, was risible. And not challenged by anyone.


Why risible? He was the Minister, and he did bring in the relevant policy and supporting legislation?


----------



## TarfHead

Complainer said:


> You mustn't have been paying attention.


 
True, I tend to switch off when he opens his mouth



Complainer said:


> Why risible? He was the Minister, and he did bring in the relevant policy and supporting legislation?


 
OK. He was an enabler for an environment that allowed several high-profile films to be made in Ireland, which provided some short-term employment for extras in crowd scenes and caterers and some trades. Once the films were wrapped up, the 'jobs' created then ceased.

That's why I believe his claim to be risible.


----------



## ccbkd

Good old AAM! home of the right wing neo-liberal...Michael D all the way!


----------



## Sunny

To be fair to Bertie Ahearn, himself and his Ministerial Colleagues created lots of jobs as well. I will say it again. Bertie for President.


----------



## Shawady

Bertie is advising the Basque people that if they have peace they will have an economic mircle like ours.

Best we share him around than keep him to ourselves!


----------



## Purple

Shawady said:


> Bertie is advising the Basque people that if they have peace they will have an economic mircle like ours.



Have they called off their cease-fire after that news?


----------



## MrMan

cashier said:


> Maybe there weren't any to ask. I will be voting for him anyway, the only one of the shower I think that is anyway credible.



Most of them might have seemed credible if they were given a free pass like Higgins (and I don't mean the bus one).


----------



## Complainer

TarfHead said:


> OK. He was an enabler for an environment that allowed several high-profile films to be made in Ireland, which provided some short-term employment for extras in crowd scenes and caterers and some trades. Once the films were wrapped up, the 'jobs' created then ceased.


I know that no one individual can claim sole responsibility for any particular policy, but the film and a/v industry here is very much alive and kicking. From http://www.irishfilmboard.ie/irish_film_industry/Facts_amp_Figures/35


> • The audio visual content production sector in Ireland is worth over €550 million.
> 
> • The sector employs over 6,000 individuals, with over 560 small and medium enterprises operating in the sector.





MrMan said:


> Most of them might have seemed credible if they were given a free pass like Higgins.



There was no 'free pass'. The only difference was that he was capable of answering the questions, which seemed to be impossible for most of the others.


----------



## TarfHead

Complainer said:


> The sector employs over 6,000 individuals, with over 560 small and medium enterprises operating in the sector


 
And MDH created all those jobs ? They wouldn't have existed without him ?

Fair dues.

He can have my #1 to alongside yours  !


----------



## Purple

Complainer said:


> I know that no one individual can claim sole responsibility for any particular policy, but the film and a/v industry here is very much alive and kicking. From http://www.irishfilmboard.ie/irish_film_industry/Facts_amp_Figures/35


Do you think the tax breaks that he gave to the film industry are any different in principle to the tax breaks given to the (far bigger and more internationally successful) horse racing industry by Charlie McGreevy? 
Has anyone asked him that?

Has he really been pressed on why he supported the tax amnesties given by Ruairi Quinn?

Has anyone asked him why he didn’t and doesn’t condemn Palestinian terrorism perpetrated by Arafat and why he was so fond of the man?

Has  anyone delved into his personal life?

I know that you are a card carrying member of the Labour Party and fair play to you for giving of your time to support the political process but that shouldn’t mean you have to suspend your critical faculties when issues related to Labour are being discussed.


----------



## Birroc

Birroc said:


> I think 5/4 on PaddyPower for Higgins represents great value.



Higgins slipped out to 5/2 before the Pat Kenny presidential debate. Doubled my bet and waited for the Gallagher implosion - he obliged in spades!


----------



## Complainer

TarfHead said:


> And MDH created all those jobs ? They wouldn't have existed without him ?
> 
> Fair dues.



He set the policy, and drove the legislation. That's what good Ministers do.

You can be as cynical as you like, but that's all on the record.

It's make your mind up time folks - choose your FF bagman who has challenges in telling the truth, or MDH.


----------



## Sunny

Complainer said:


> It's make your mind up time folks - choose your FF bagman who has challenges in telling the truth, or MDH.


 
Dana?


----------



## cork

Did MDH ever get involved in Lboutr fund-raising?


----------



## Sunny

cork said:


> Did MDH ever get involved in Lboutr fund-raising?



I think we established that this wasn't the problem. The problem was that he caught in a lie. And he still hasnt answered the question of the loan properly.


----------



## Birroc

Someone said to me today that the 7 presidential candidates mirror everything that was wrong with Ireland in the past 10-20 years;

Mitchell = Representative of the poor level of Opposition in recent years
McGuinness = The Troubles
Davis = Quangos
Gallagher = FF fundraiser businessman/builder
Norris = Perception that he is soft on child abuse (Unfair I think)
Dana = Religious fundamentalist who sees no wrong in the RCC
Higgins = Unions?


----------



## Complainer

Sunny said:


> Dana?


Maybe: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...tional_01.jpg/220px-Dana_International_01.jpg



cork said:


> Did MDH ever get involved in Lboutr fund-raising?


Frequently. Did he every lie about NOT being involved in Labour fundraising - No. Did he ever get voluntary organisations to pay €5k personally to him to ensure that they get public grants from his boss? No.

http://www.independent.ie/national-...up-to-euro5000-for-grants-advice-2915300.html


----------



## ontour

Michael D was a member of Fianna Fail.
If elected, Michael D will be eligible for 4 pensions paid for by the taxpayer.  Is that a record?
He is a regular at the Galway races, possibly a union tent?  2 or 4 man.
He is against the Corrib Gas project, a major source of employment.

Michael D is a gentleman and a scholar.  He has coasted through this election by not having offended anyone.  He will now coast in to retirement in the park and we will return to the the presidency having a relationship with an elite group and for the rest of the country the next we will hear of the presidency is in 7 years.  For the artists and poets, they are in for a crackin' eight years in the comfort of the Aras.

Sean Gallagher has a lot more baggage/ skeletons that Michael D, if that I have little doubt.  I do believe that Sean would work a lot harder than Michael D to utilise the role of the presidency for the nations benefit  but he is a gamble.


----------



## Guest105

ontour said:


> Michael D is a gentleman and a scholar. He has coasted through this election by not having offended anyone.


 

I wish I was around to vote today but unfortunately because of being abroad it is not an option for me

Happy voting everybody, may the best man or woman win!


----------



## ontour

cashier said:


> may the best man or woman win!



Unfortunately I do not think that they are running !


----------



## Complainer

ontour said:


> Michael D was a member of Fianna Fail.
> If elected, Michael D will be eligible for 4 pensions paid for by the taxpayer.  Is that a record?
> He is a regular at the Galway races, possibly a union tent?  2 or 4 man.
> He is against the Corrib Gas project, a major source of employment.


Ah man, talk about clutching at straws with mentions of tents at the Races. We all know who was inside the tents at the Galway Races, and it wasn't Michael D. The reference to pensions is a bit silly. He has confirmed during the campaign that "I do not intend to draw my pensions from the Oireachtas, Ministry or whatever while I am President". If there is a problem with the current pension arrangement, then you fix the pensions problem for all recipients, not just Michael D. You don't choose your President based on his pension costs.



ontour said:


> Michael D is a gentleman and a scholar.  He has coasted through this election by not having offended anyone.  He will now coast in to retirement in the park and we will return to the the presidency having a relationship with an elite group and for the rest of the country the next we will hear of the presidency is in 7 years.  For the artists and poets, they are in for a crackin' eight years in the comfort of the Aras.


He hasn't coasted anywhere. The fact that he's given clear, straight answers has meant that the press get bored and move on to easier targets. This is a sign of his maturity and his political ability.



ontour said:


> Sean Gallagher has a lot more baggage/ skeletons that Michael D, if that I have little doubt.  I do believe that Sean would work a lot harder than Michael D to utilise the role of the presidency for the nations benefit  but he is a gamble.


Based on what came out this week about his charging of GAA clubs personal fees to get them public grants,  I do believe that Sean would work a lot harder than Michael D to utilise the role of the presidency for Sean's benefit.


----------



## Shawady

Purple said:


> Has he really been pressed on why he supported the tax amnesties given by Ruairi Quinn?


 
I think it was a FF minister (Bertie?) that introduced the tax amnesty but you're right, the Labour party supported it in government. This point was put to MDH on one radio interview and he basically said he was sorry and it was left at that. He certainly wasn't put under the sort of pressure he could have been.

I read one article were it said that when the Labour party put forward Mary Robinson in 1992 they were changing the style of presidency which was a bit of fresh air. In other words they were go against the typical retirement job for politicians it has previously been. It is ironic that with MDH, they seem to be going back down that road.


----------



## T McGibney

Why all this shame and scandal over the 1994 tax amnesty? It raised substantial sums for the taxpayer, enabled a lot of business people to clean up their tax affairs and allowed Revenue deal with and eliminate a whole host of legacy tax compliance practices that had been lingering in the economy since the 1970s & 1980s.


----------



## ontour

Complainer said:


> Ah man, talk about clutching at straws.....



Exactly !  None of those things have anything to do with whether or not Michael D would make a good president but the modus operandi for the presidential debate is to raise facts that can be interpreted negatively.  I don't think that Michael D has done anything wrong in collecting 3 pensions and I don't think Sean did anything wrong is collecting 5k from GAA clubs for consultancy.  I don't agree with someone collecting 3 state pensions and I do not believe in charging voluntary organisation for guidance  but I would not demonize anyone who did either of those things.



Complainer said:


> This is a sign of his maturity and his political ability.


This is a sign that even though there are many negative things to say about the media, they still have a level of respect for an elderly frail gentleman.

Labour changed our expectation for the presidency when they gave us Mary Robinson.  They are now changing it back to it's retirement home status.  Ironically one of the few things that we do not need to reset to pre-Celtic Tiger !


----------



## Complainer

ontour said:


> I don't think Sean did anything wrong is collecting 5k from GAA clubs for consultancy.


Oh let's give the full story please - do you think Sean did anything wrong by collecting €5k for GAA clubs for filling out grant forms and ensuring that his then boss 'looked after' the payees with public money?

If not, you've just created a whole new business sector of FAS employees, nurses, social welfare staff who can charge for nixers to make sure applications get public money and services.


----------



## Purple

Complainer said:


> Oh let's give the full story please - do you think Sean did anything wrong by collecting €5k for GAA clubs for filling out grant forms and ensuring that his then boss 'looked after' the payees with public money?



That’s a very serious accusation. Can you back it up with facts?


----------



## liaconn

Shawady said:


> I read one article were it said that when the Labour party put forward Mary Robinson in 1992 they were changing the style of presidency which was a bit of fresh air. In other words they were go against the typical retirement job for politicians it has previously been. It is ironic that with MDH, they seem to be going back down that road.


 
I agree with this. Having been the first party to use a bit of vision and imagination in putting someone forward for the Presidency, it is really disappointing to see them retreat back to using it to reward an elderly and somewhat out of touch party member with no new ideas to bring to the table.


----------



## liaconn

Complainer said:


> Oh let's give the full story please - do you think Sean did anything wrong by collecting €5k for GAA clubs for filling out grant forms and ensuring that his then boss 'looked after' the payees with public money


 
When did this story break??


----------



## RonanC

liaconn said:


> When did this story break??


 
Google gives several sources


----------



## Purple

It seems to have broken in the Indo and as we all know that can't be trusted


----------



## RonanC

Purple said:


> It seems to have broken in the Indo and as we all know that can't be trusted


 
Thats why I didnt give the link to their site


----------



## ontour

Complainer said:


> do you think Sean did anything wrong by collecting €5k for GAA clubs for filling out grant forms and ensuring that his then boss 'looked after' the payees with public money?



You are assuming he did something wrong, he may have but I have not seem any evidence of this.  The skill of completing these applications has a significant bearing on whether your application will succeed where others fail.  I did this, long ago,for sports groups who had failed in previous applications.  This was through a consultancy firm and pre - FF.  In the same way as it can be advantageous to use a claims assessor in a flood damage claim, there is expertise in grant funding applications.

It would appear that the clubs were well aware of the charges and happy to pay them.  I am sure that a 5k donation to the local government TD would have been far quicker if the motivation to get the funding approved outside of normal appraisal processes.


----------



## Complainer

From http://www.independent.ie/national-...up-to-euro5000-for-grants-advice-2915300.html



> Local sources last night told the Irish Independent: "He was inside with Fianna Fail and the ministers and (he had) the inside track, he had been (Dr Rory) O'Hanlon's secretary. Once you got him to do it, you were going to get the grant.



You decide.


ontour said:


> I did this, long ago,for sports groups who had failed in previous applications.  This was through a consultancy firm and pre - FF.


How much did you charge?


----------



## ontour

Complainer,

Ah 'local sources'.  Someone in Galway told me that Michael D is an alien, can I refer to them as a 'local source'?

Can't recall how much was paid, I was only a very junior person but it would have been in the thousands.  It would have been for larger sports organisations, not a village GAA club.


----------



## Sunny

ontour said:


> You are assuming he did something wrong, he may have but I have not seem any evidence of this. The skill of completing these applications has a significant bearing on whether your application will succeed where others fail. I did this, long ago,for sports groups who had failed in previous applications. This was through a consultancy firm and pre - FF. In the same way as it can be advantageous to use a claims assessor in a flood damage claim, there is expertise in grant funding applications.
> 
> It would appear that the clubs were well aware of the charges and happy to pay them. I am sure that a 5k donation to the local government TD would have been far quicker if the motivation to get the funding approved outside of normal appraisal processes.


 
Lets not be totally naive here. The guy had no particular skill filling out forms. He was paid €5k because he had access to Department officials and politicians. Can't believe people are still so understanding about things like this after the past couple of years. 

If he had such a skill getting grants, he would have expanded the business but he concentrated on these grants because he knew the right people. And no, I don't think it is right that a club that might not be able to afford €5k should lose out on a grant because they couldn't hire someone like Gallagher.

By the way, I don't see it as a huge story but there is something about him that I just don't trust.


----------



## Complainer

ontour said:


> Complainer,
> 
> Ah 'local sources'.  Someone in Galway told me that Michael D is an alien, can I refer to them as a 'local source'?
> .



Yes, you can - provided you can get it through the legal dept of a national newspaper that is very, very careful about protecting their interests.


----------



## Firefly

I was going to vote Michael D but I've changed my mind to Sean Gallagher. MD is certainly a nice man but I think SG would be better for the country. He'll be on trade missions etc and will help promote Ireland as a good place to do business. I actually think it's a positive that he has links to FF...it will keep the current government on their toes...


----------



## Sunny

Firefly said:


> I was going to vote Michael D but I've changed my mind to Sean Gallagher. MD is certainly a nice man but I think SG would be better for the country. He'll be on trade missions etc and will help promote Ireland as a good place to do business. I actually think it's a positive that he has links to FF...it will keep the current government on their toes...


 
Out of curiosity, why do people think this guy is so good for business? His record isn't outstanding. How much of it is down to the Dragons Den factor? (Not asking you as such!)


----------



## Purple

It's good to see that Complainer now sees the Indo as a reliable news source.


----------



## Birroc

Firefly said:


> but I think SG would be better for the country. He'll be on trade missions etc and will help promote Ireland as a good place to do business. I actually think it's a positive that he has links to FF...it will keep the current government on their toes...


 
Didn't we recently elect 160 odd TDs to do these jobs?


----------



## Time

Their jobs are to make sure the potholes get filled and that Mary down the road gets her medical card.


----------



## DB74

Time said:


> Their jobs are to make sure the potholes get filled and that Mary down the road gets her medical card.



And that the local GAA club gets their grant!


----------



## Complainer

Firefly said:


> He'll be on trade missions etc and will help promote Ireland as a good place to do business.


I wonder how much he'll charge Enterprise Ireland for helping them to fill out his airline ticket booking form? €5k perhaps?


----------



## z107

Firefly said:


> I was going to vote Michael D but I've changed my mind to Sean Gallagher. MD is certainly a nice man but I think SG would be better for the country. He'll be on trade missions etc and will help promote Ireland as a good place to do business. I actually think it's a positive that he has links to FF...it will keep the current government on their toes...



After everything FF have done to this country, you are seriously considering voting for SG?

It really saddens me when I see posts like this.


----------



## Purple

Complainer said:


> I wonder how much he'll charge Enterprise Ireland for helping them to fill out his airline ticket booking form? €5k perhaps?


 The Presidents expenses are not covered by Enterprise Ireland when they travel on a trade mission.


----------



## Firefly

Sunny said:


> Out of curiosity, why do people think this guy is so good for business? *His record isn't outstanding. *How much of it is down to the Dragons Den factor? (Not asking you as such!)



Perhaps, but he is still pro-business. That's clear the minute you see him and can only be a good thing


----------



## Firefly

umop3p!sdn said:


> After everything FF have done to this country, you are seriously considering voting for SG?
> 
> It really saddens me when I see posts like this.



To be clear...I'm not advocating FF return to power (far from it)...all I'm saying is that someone with FF ties in this position could help keep the current government on its toes. The same logic would apply if we elected Martin McGuinness given the strides SF are making in the Republic.


----------



## Complainer

Firefly said:


> Perhaps, but he is still pro-business.



Which business are you referring to? The one where the Directors payments match the grant money extracted from Enterprise Ireland? Or the one where he refused to repay the full grant money to the Louth County Enterprise Board as he shut down the business? Or the business of extracting €5k payments from voluntary organisations to get the inside track on public grants?


----------



## RonanC

Complainer said:


> Which business are you referring to? The one where the Directors payments match the grant money extracted from Enterprise Ireland? Or the one where he refused to repay the full grant money to the Louth County Enterprise Board as he shut down the business? Or the business of extracting €5k payments from voluntary organisations to get the inside track on public grants?


 
[broken link removed] the directors loans which were in breach of company law, or the confusion over ownership of shares in another company (one which featured on Dragons Den)

[broken link removed]


----------



## Sunny

Slightly off topic by considering that most of us seem to think that the list of candidates is less than inspiring, is it time to look at the length of the term. 7 years is an awful long time to be stuck with one of them.


----------



## Firefly

Complainer said:


> Which business are you referring to? The one where the Directors payments match the grant money extracted from Enterprise Ireland? Or the one where he refused to repay the full grant money to the Louth County Enterprise Board as he shut down the business? Or the business of extracting €5k payments from voluntary organisations to get the inside track on public grants?



I mean pro-business in general and not his own businesses. The type of businesses (domestic & multi-national) that create jobs and fund public services.


----------



## Sunny

Firefly said:


> I mean pro-business in general and not his own businesses. The type of businesses (domestic & multi-national) that create jobs and fund public services.


 
Charles Haughey was 'pro-business'.


----------



## Complainer

I'm calling it now for Michael D, based on the general tally reports from round the country, showing him either well ahead or neck-and-neck with Gallagher. This report from Gallagher's home town is particularly telling. " With all seven boxes tallied in Sean Gallagher's home town of Blackrock in Louth the predictions are that Michael D Higgins is beating him 2:1." http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/1028/vote_tracker.html


----------



## Shawady

Complainer said:


> I'm calling it now for Michael D,


 
It was the Shinners wot won it for you. 

Definitely Michael D's. As high as 40% in some early tallies. McGuinnes challenging Gallagher for 2nd spot in some areas. Mitchell doesn't seem to be showing at all.


----------



## ontour

Complainer said:


> I'm calling it now for Michael D, based on the general tally reports from round the country, showing him either well ahead or neck-and-neck with Gallagher. This report from Gallagher's home town is particularly telling. " With all seven boxes tallied in Sean Gallagher's home town of Blackrock in Louth the predictions are that Michael D Higgins is beating him 2:1." http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/1028/vote_tracker.html



It was the turnout of 170% in Louth that impressed me 

You are a week behind BoyleSports on that call.


----------



## Firefly

Sunny said:


> Charles Haughey was 'pro-business'.



What point are you trying to make?


----------



## DerKaiser

Shawady said:


> It was the Shinners wot won it for you.


 
And saved us a packet.  Gallagher's pension on retirement would have been worth about €4m more than Michael D's.  This was certainly the least worst outcome.


----------



## Shawady

It looks like the referendum on the Oireachtas might be in trouble and FG have had a poor showing in the by-election and the presidential election.
Is the honeymoon over for FG?


----------



## Time

FG picked the worst possible candidate. 

The govt used it's usual trick of running something important along with the election. "If in doubt, vote no."


----------



## MrMan

DerKaiser said:


> And saved us a packet.  Gallagher's pension on retirement would have been worth about €4m more than Michael D's.  This was certainly the least worst outcome.



Based on what?


----------



## callybags

DerKaiser said:


> And saved us a packet. Gallagher's pension on retirement would have been worth about €4m more than Michael D's. This was certainly the least worst outcome.


 
I find this post depressing.

By all means question the pension entitlements of the president, but it should not be the abiding criteria when choosing our head of state.


----------



## Deiseblue

Could be a great day for Labour with Patrick Nulty performing well according to tallies in Dublin West as well as Michael D's strong showing to date , conversely FG are having a dreadful time in both elections.


----------



## DerKaiser

callybags said:


> I find this post depressing.
> 
> By all means question the pension entitlements of the president, but it should not be the abiding criteria when choosing our head of state.


 

Depressingly it was my criteria.  In a cost benefit analysis, I saw very little in terms of benefits from any of the 7 so it came down to a cost decision.


----------



## The_Banker

MrMan said:


> Based on what?


 
Based on the fact that Gallagher would be expected to live longer!!

Liam Cosgrave has been collecting a Taoiseach pension since 1977 which is almost 35 years!! Costing a fortune!!


----------



## Vanilla

Are the presidential appointees to the council of state paid?


----------



## Complainer

I find all the stuff about 'retirement homes' and 'no new ideals' to be quite offensive. Michael D's age has little to do with his ability to be creative and innovative. I see little creativity and innovation from many 20 year olds - Michael D would leave them in the shade. 



Deiseblue said:


> Could be a great day for Labour with Patrick Nulty performing well according to tallies in Dublin West as well as Michael D's strong showing to date , conversely FG are having a dreadful time in both elections.


Indeed, though the results for both parties are pretty much the opposite of the general opinion poll readings for each. I wonder if this will lead to some rebalancing on general party preferences.



callybags said:


> I find this post depressing.
> 
> By all means question the pension entitlements of the president, but it should not be the abiding criteria when choosing our head of state.


Depressing indeed. Not quite as spectacularly crass at the FF supporter on the radio during the week who suggested that we shouldn't vote for Michael D because of the probability that we'll have to pay for a State funeral. I wonder if Der Kaiser built this possibility into his cost benefit analysis.



Shawady said:


> It was the Shinners wot won it for you.


Indeed, nice to see that Martin hasn't forgotten how to do an ambush. Though Gallagher just kept on digging in that hole. He should have turned on McGuinness and made the point that allegations about past involvement in FF fundraising pales in comparison to allegations about past involvement in murder and bombings.


----------



## callybags

Vanilla said:


> Are the presidential appointees to the council of state paid?


 
I don't know but would be very surprised if they were.

Presumably they would get expenses for meetings.


----------



## Mpsox

Complainer said:


> Indeed, nice to see that Martin hasn't forgotten how to do an ambush. Though Gallagher just kept on digging in that hole. He should have turned on McGuinness and made the point that allegations about past involvement in FF fundraising pales in comparison to allegations about past involvement in murder and bombings.


 
Or pointed out that SF seemed to have plently of contacts withtax evading businessmen and dodgy builders (Priory Hall).


----------



## Mpsox

Vanilla said:


> Are the presidential appointees to the council of state paid?


 
Don't think so, many have state cars/drivers anyway so would have little expense incurred themselves


----------



## Time

Mary Davis would know seeing as she is still a member until 10th of November.


----------



## DerKaiser

Complainer said:


> I wonder if Der Kaiser built this possibility into his cost benefit analysis.


 
Yes, this was one of the first considerations, but there would be a lower than 15% chance of this and wouldn't there be a state funeral regardless of whether he died in office or afterwards?

Apologies if the humour is a little black, but I thought I'd get away with it at Halloween.


----------



## MrMan

The_Banker said:


> Based on the fact that Gallagher would be expected to live longer!!
> 
> Liam Cosgrave has been collecting a Taoiseach pension since 1977 which is almost 35 years!! Costing a fortune!!



I figured, but basing a figure on the assumption of life expectancy is as inaccurate as it is morbid.


----------



## Shawady

Whats interesting is that it looks like the recent polls have been quite accurate for the other 5 candidates with MDH and SG's recent poll % being reversed in the actual election. It would suggest that the polls were accurate and that SG had it in the bag before Monday night.

Regards the by-election, this must be the first time in ages that a government party has won one?


----------



## DB74

Shawady said:


> Regards the by-election, this must be the first time in ages that a government party has won one?



1983 I think was the last one

Although going by the projected figure for the Fine Gael candidate it would seem that the general public don't seem to realise that Labour are actually in government!


----------



## Purple

Complainer said:


> Indeed, nice to see that Martin hasn't forgotten how to do an ambush. Though Gallagher just kept on digging in that hole. He should have turned on McGuinness and made the point that allegations about past involvement in FF fundraising pales in comparison to allegations about past involvement in murder and bombings.



Agreed. Martin loaded the gun but Gallagher took it from him and shot himself in the foot.


----------



## Purple

Great day all around for Labour. I thought they'd made a mistake not selecting Finlay but the Shinners proved me wrong.
The by-election is not that big a deal for a government that has such a big majority but it's a big deal for Labour who, as had been pointed out, are the first government party to win a by-election in 30 years.


----------



## ontour

What is really interesting is that the 'junior' partner in a coalition did not get savaged in an election.  Is that down to he individual candidates or do people see Labour as not really involved in the current government?


----------



## z107

> He should have turned on McGuinness and made the point that allegations about past involvement in FF fundraising pales in comparison to allegations about past involvement in murder and bombings.


Both FF and FG are civil war parties.


----------



## Sunny

umop3p!sdn said:


> Both FF and FG are civil war parties.



What's that got to with anything?


----------



## StevieC

ontour said:


> What is really interesting is that the 'junior' partner in a coalition did not get savaged in an election. Is that down to he individual candidates or do people see Labour as not really involved in the current government?


 
FG ran two no hopers. In their arrogance they thought that they could run their weakest candidate and win the Presidency just because Gay had "years served". They should have run Mairead McGuinness and made a decent attempt at getting it.

Eithne Loftus was chosen because shes in her 70's and was no threat to Leo Varadkar. He didnt want a strong competitor in his back yard.

Once again in-party politics starves the electorate of decent candidates.


----------



## DerKaiser

DB74 said:


> 1983 I think was the last one


 
I thought I saw somewhere that Brian cowen was the last in 1985?

Edit: Can't be right as FF weren't in


----------



## Complainer

StevieC said:


> They should have run Mairead McGuinness and made a decent attempt at getting it.


I agree, particularly with the age and gender difference to the other serious candidates, she'd have got a lot of support.

I was pushing for Finlay over Michael D within Labour, as I reckoned he'd make a better President. He would have been harder to get elected, mind you - not the same personable touch as Michael D.

Good day for Labour - we're not really used to being on the winning team. What does one do when one wins?


----------



## DB74

DerKaiser said:


> I thought I saw somewhere that Brian cowen was the last in 1985?



Had a look at Wikipedia there and Garrett Fitzgerald was Taoiseach from Dec '82 until Mar '87 so Cowen (actually elected in 1984) wouldn't have been a member of a government party at that date

From what I can see, the last one was actually on 20-Jul-1982 when Noel Treacy was elected for FF in Galway East

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irish_by-elections

This will be the 12th successive bye-election that FF have not won (Brian Lenihan won their last in 1996 on the death of his father, as indeed did Brian Cowen)


----------



## DB74

Complainer said:


> Good day for Labour - we're not really used to being on the winning team. What does one do when one wins?



Run up a massive expenses bill at your local hostelry!


----------



## Sunny

Complainer said:


> Good day for Labour - we're not really used to being on the winning team. What does one do when one wins?



Send a thank you card to SF headquarters!


----------



## T McGibney

Complainer said:


> I was pushing for Finlay over Michael D within Labour, as I reckoned he'd make a better President. He would have been harder to get elected, mind you - not the same personable touch as Michael D.



Finlay's not the worst but I think he might have ended up like Gay Mitchell, a decent politician but a poor candidate for President.


----------



## Betsy Og

Well done Mickey D, happy meal for everyone.......

At least I dont have to spend the next 7 years grimacing when the pres is mentioned.


----------



## oldnick

he'll live for another seven years ?


----------



## Guest105

Great news on Michael D, may he do our country proud 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=us3dQ0nnlHY


----------



## micmclo

oldnick said:


> he'll live for another seven years ?



He spent the last month all over the country.
And spent the last few decades as a TD heading off to meetings on dark winter nights and having every NIMBY and community calling for him to show up
It's not like a Dublin or Cork constituency, Galway West is a large area and lots of places to cover

He is fitter and more able then people younger then him

Not sure what else he has to do to prove it


----------



## z107

Sunny said:


> What's that got to with anything?



Nothing. I just thought I'd mention it for absolutely no reason. Completely out of the blue.


----------



## ajapale

*Agence France-Presse:* _"Elderly poet wins Irish presidency"_


----------



## T McGibney

ajapale said:


> *Agence France-Presse:* _"Elderly poet wins Irish presidency"_



Who are they to talk? Chirac served as French President until he was 75, a gravely ill Francois Mitterand did likewise until he was 78.


----------



## Time

Well said T.


----------



## Complainer

DB74 said:


> Run up a massive expenses bill at your local hostelry!


Nice idea, but 'massive expenses bill' and 'Labour Party' don't really go together.


Sunny said:


> Send a thank you card to SF headquarters!


Or maybe I should send them a little parcel.


T McGibney said:


> Finlay's not the worst but I think he might have ended up like Gay Mitchell, a decent politician but a poor candidate for President.



True, which probably raises some broader questions about the political process and what we can do to get the best candidates on board.


----------



## ontour

For the candidates that get over a quarter of a quota, they get €200k  'reimbursed'.  I am guessing that where a candidate is put forward by a  party, the money goes back to party coffers?  What happens for  independents as I would have thought that much of their funding comes  from small donations to the campaign rather than a €200k plus outlay by  the candidate?


----------



## Time

Correct.


----------



## Purple

Complainer said:


> Good day for Labour - we're not really used to being on the winning team. What does one do when one wins?



Just maintain your usual air of non-judgemental humility.
That one think I’ll say for Labour; they never come across as holier-than-thou.


----------



## Husker

Congratulations, Michael D.  An understated and honest campaign.


----------



## horusd

Listening to Michael thanking the million or so voter after returning triumphant to Rome, sorry Galway last night, the myth of this election is already being spun. A considerable percentage of his vote was a negative one to prevent other worse candidates getting elected, or because there was such poor choice on offer overall. 

He was the best of the worst. Don't doubt he is a decent skin, but lets not kid ourselves he was the people's real choice.  FF and SF were winners of a kind. For FF, a combination of the Presidental election and the Dublin West by-election shows the brand isn't quite as toxic, and there is a glimmer of hope. For SF they were kingmakers, a party on the way up.


----------



## Yorrick

The Mitchell vote shows that the so called "loyal FG" is minimal. The people hammered FF at the last election by voting for all and any of the others. FG has shown its arrogance since particularly in its response to any critics of the Oireachtas referendum issue. 

Sinn Fein really did not advance on the last election and again benefitted from a protest vote. Labour did well winning both elections and dont seemed to be tarred with the FG link.
FF could only improve from rock bottom. Despite no TD in Dublin they are not finished yet. But it will have to be new faces that are put forward. Any of the old brigade have too many questions to answer


----------



## Leper

The Irish People are becoming much less tolerant with "stroke" politics.  The tolerance lasted when the economy was in a good state. The Dont-Fix-It-if it's-not Broken syndrome reigned. People had jobs and the only people leaving the country were Gap Year Merchants who thought they would never see a poor day in Ireland and a job would be waiting for them on their return.

But, things have changed and it appears the Irish People are learning slowly but surely that the Old Regime is finished and good riddance. 

In reality, we had not much of a choice in the Presidential election, but we had a choice of sorts and the people took it. The side shows reflected that the People thought things out also.

Let's hope all the party leaders will wake up and smell the coffee and do what they were elected to do.


----------



## dereko1969

horusd said:


> Listening to Michael thanking the million or so voter after returning triumphant to Rome, sorry Galway last night, the myth of this election is already being spun. A considerable percentage of his vote was a negative one to prevent other worse candidates getting elected, or because there was such poor choice on offer overall.
> 
> He was the best of the worst. Don't doubt he is a decent skin, *but lets not kid ourselves he was the people's real choice*. FF and SF were winners of a kind. For FF, a combination of the Presidental election and the Dublin West by-election shows the brand isn't quite as toxic, and there is a glimmer of hope. For SF they were kingmakers, a party on the way up.


 
That's just rubbish, you can only beat the people you're up against. 

Putting in the whatifs and the maybes is a pointless exercise, we weren't dealing in a hypothetical election where you could write in someone's name.

I don't think the Shinners can take too much out of the elections, they barely increased their vote and failed miserably in the bye-election. Their use of bussed-in canvassers who look like bouncers calling to peoples houses and telling them they were voting for MMG will have woken a lot of people up to their bully-boy tactics.


----------



## michaelm

Husker said:


> Congratulations, Michael D.  An understated and honest campaign.


Congratulations, Michael D.  A reigned-in and slip-free campaign.  Probably the safest choice of the field; but then I'm a bit ageist as I think the roll should be restricted to OAPs.


----------



## Purple

michaelm said:


> Congratulations, Michael D.  A reigned-in and slip-free campaign.  Probably the safest choice of the field; but then I'm a bit ageist as I think the roll should be restricted to OAPs.



I think that's about right.
I do think the media gave him a very easy ride. No questions about the amount of money that was channelled into his constituency when he was minister for Galway, sorry; minister for Arts, tourism and Galway


----------



## Purple

The think that stands out about the campaign for me is just how devious and underhand Sinn Fein are. The ambush of Gallagher on the front line was a well organised lie. The tweet was fictitious and I don’t think anyone believes that McGuiness didn’t know it would be sent after he made his comments.


----------



## Birroc

Purple said:


> I think that's about right.
> I do think the media gave him a very easy ride. No questions about the amount of money that was channelled into his constituency when he was minister for Galway, sorry; minister for Arts, tourism and Galway


 
He was good for Galway but interestingly he was born in Limerick and grew up in Clare. O'Cuiv is really the man who is seen to have channelled a lot of money into Galway and expecially the Gaelteacht.


----------



## Firefly

Purple said:


> The think that stands out about the campaign for me is just how devious and underhand Sinn Fein are. The ambush of Gallagher on the front line was a well organised lie. The tweet was fictitious and I don’t think anyone believes that McGuiness didn’t know it would be sent after he made his comments.



+1

This was a shot across the bow of FF. SF were never going to win this but by entering they are chipping away at FF and in the process de-sanitising their image...trying to make it not such a big deal to vote for them. Their top brass are certainly coming across a lot better in recent years, but you only have to delve an inch or two below the surface to see a clearer picture of who they are. Someone recently said they would not rule out a FF/SF alliance in the future and this could (unfortunately) be the case.


----------



## cork

Purple said:


> The think that stands out about the campaign for me is just how devious and underhand Sinn Fein are. The ambush of Gallagher on the front line was a well organised lie. The tweet was fictitious and I don’t think anyone believes that McGuiness didn’t know it would be sent after he made his comments.



Pat Kenny has some serious questions to answer on this.


----------



## PaddyBloggit

I think it should RTE rather than Pat Kenny ....


----------



## Mpsox

ontour said:


> For the candidates that get over a quarter of a quota, they get €200k 'reimbursed'. I am guessing that where a candidate is put forward by a party, the money goes back to party coffers? What happens for independents as I would have thought that much of their funding comes from small donations to the campaign rather than a €200k plus outlay by the candidate?


 
There was a story over the weekend that FG took out a mortgage on their offices to fund the campaign, safe in the knowledge that they'd get it reimburrsed. Ooops, they got that one wrong!!


----------



## Mpsox

Firefly said:


> +1
> 
> This was a shot across the bow of FF. SF were never going to win this but by entering they are chipping away at FF and in the process de-sanitising their image...trying to make it not such a big deal to vote for them. Their top brass are certainly coming across a lot better in recent years, but you only have to delve an inch or two below the surface to see a clearer picture of who they are. Someone recently said they would not rule out a FF/SF alliance in the future and this could (unfortunately) be the case.


 
true, although I think they made a mistake in running McGuinnes. Had they run a young, "clean" untarnished candidate, with no history of being a paramilitary, they might had done better, especially with FF not in the race. One good thing about this campaign is that it perhaps reminded  some of the younger voters of the history of SF so that is no bad thing


----------



## Firefly

Mpsox said:


> true, although I think they made a mistake in running McGuinnes. Had they run a young, "clean" untarnished candidate, with no history of being a paramilitary, they might had done better, especially with FF not in the race. One good thing about this campaign is that it perhaps reminded  some of the younger voters of the history of SF so that is no bad thing



That's a good point (hope they don't follow this site!).


----------



## Shawady

Mpsox said:


> true, although I think they made a mistake in running McGuinnes. Had they run a young, "clean" untarnished candidate, with no history of being a paramilitary, they might had done better, especially with FF not in the race. One good thing about this campaign is that it perhaps reminded some of the younger voters of the history of SF so that is no bad thing


 
I agree with that. SF increased there % of the vote compared to the GE, but because the turnout was lower I don't think there was any real difference in the actual numbers of voters.
They might have been better runing a caoimhin o caolain - type candiate (A member of SF but not associated with the IRA).

However, one of the polls that slipped under the radar during the presidential election was the state of the parties. FG polled strongly and FF, LAB and SF were all close in their mid to late teens. SF still have huge potential once Adams/ McGuinnes move on.


----------



## T McGibney

Shawady said:


> caoimhin o caolain - type candiate (A member of SF but not associated with the IRA).



It would have been great fun hearing O'Caolain's social welfare record being aired


----------



## zxcvbnm

Shawady said:


> I agree with that. SF increased there % of the vote compared to the GE, but because the turnout was lower I don't think there was any real difference in the actual numbers of voters.


 
Surely it is the percentage of vote they get that counts - not the nominal number of votes !!


----------



## Teatime

zxcvbnm said:


> Surely it is the percentage of vote they get that counts - not the nominal number of votes !!


 
The key figure is the number of people that put Martin McGuinness somewhere on their ballot paper. I know many people that were talking about voting for SF somewhere on their ballot "to make sure that such-and-such doesn't get in". For many people this will be the 1st time that they have ever selected a SF candidate even if many of those votes did not count/transfer.
This sets a precedence for the future. There will be less stigma around voting SF in the next election and the media are less likely to hound SF with the IRA/Murder/Criminality questions in the next GE because the public for the most part will be bored of it. Putting McGuinness forward was a master stroke which will reap rewards in future elections. Note: I do not support SF.


----------



## Mpsox

Teatime said:


> The key figure is the number of people that put Martin McGuinness somewhere on their ballot paper. I know many people that were talking about voting for SF somewhere on their ballot "to make sure that such-and-such doesn't get in". For many people this will be the 1st time that they have ever selected a SF candidate even if many of those votes did not count/transfer.
> This sets a precedence for the future. There will be less stigma around voting SF in the next election and the media are less likely to hound SF with the IRA/Murder/Criminality questions in the next GE because the public for the most part will be bored of it. Putting McGuinness forward was a master stroke which will reap rewards in future elections. Note: I do not support SF.


 
Anyone I knew were selecting "anyone but McGuiness" to make sure he didn't get in. That includes a number of first time voters who don't remember the troubles


----------



## dereko1969

zxcvbnm said:


> Surely it is the percentage of vote they get that counts - not the nominal number of votes !!


 
Not for extrapolation purposes. Apart from European elections this was the first time SF had a candidate in every constituency and they barely increased their percentage or number of votes.

I don't think SF wanted MMG to get elected it was purely to increase "brand awareness" it would have been interesting to see if he'd been at 40% heading into the final week if SF would have inflicted an own goal on themselves.


----------



## Teatime

dereko1969 said:


> I don't think SF wanted MMG to get elected it was purely to increase "brand awareness"



Agreed. More brand awareness today - they walked out of the Dail over the Anglo bond repayment of €700m.
I have a sneaking suspicion they will be part of the next coalition government.


----------



## callybags

Teatime said:


> Agreed. More brand awareness today - they walked out of the Dail over the Anglo bond repayment of €700m.
> I have a sneaking suspicion they will be part of the next coalition government.


 
_*Never! Never!*_

Apologies to Dr. Ian


----------



## T McGibney

Teatime said:


> Agreed. More brand awareness today - they walked out of the Dail over the Anglo bond repayment of €700m.
> I have a sneaking suspicion they will be part of the next coalition government.



They didn't walk out of Stormont when the swingeing cuts up there were proposed - because it was them who was doing the cutting.


----------

