# My complaint to RTE about the programme on Life Loans



## Brendan Burgess (2 Feb 2021)

_Note: The first two posts are very long.  But it's necessary._

I have today sent this email to RTE.

To: Lisa Marie-Berry , Producer LiveLine

by email to: complaints@rte.ie; joe@rte.ie; Rebecca.meehan@rte.ie; lisamarie.berry@rte.ie



From: Brendan Burgess 

2nd  February 2021

Hi Lisa-Marie

I am very deeply concerned that the catalogue of errors and misrepresentations on the programmes on Wednesday and Thursday will do enormous damage to consumers and you need to  correct the errors and the record promptly.

There is nothing at all wrong with lifetime mortgages. With an aging population and declining pensions, there is a huge societal need for these products. In the UK there are at least 13 lenders providing them, including such well-known names as  Scottish Widows, Canada Life, Nationwide Building Society, Aviva and Legal & General.  During 2020, over 40,000 elderly people drew down these  lifetime mortgages  with an average of about £100k each.  The interest rates in the UK are much lower because of all the competition.

Your programme has set back the development of this necessary product in Ireland as it would deter any lender from entering the market because of the irrational abuse that they would get from Joe Duffy.

Furthermore, people who already have these loans will be frightened that they have been sold a product they do not understand and that they will lose their home.

People who could benefit from taking out a life loan now will be discouraged from doing so by your horror stories.

I do appreciate that it is a live programme, and you don’t have the luxury of checking everything in the same way that the print media has. But when you broadcast such a long list of errors, you have a duty to your listeners to correct the record.

I have drafted a suggested statement for Joe to read out on the programme.  It’s a very long statement, but that is necessary because the programmes lasted for 2 ½ hours and the list of errors and unfair comments is very long.

Give me a call at any time to discuss.

Brendan


----------



## Brendan Burgess (2 Feb 2021)

*Suggested statement *

We covered the issue of Life Loans from Bank of Ireland on Wednesday and Thursday last.

As this is a live programme, we don’t have the luxury of being able to check the validity of what the callers are saying.

But we are committed to being fair and transparent on this programme and where wrong information is given out, we like to correct the record. It seems that a lot of our listeners completely misunderstood the Life Loan and we understand that other people who have these life loans were very frightened by what they heard.  And we probably frightened off people who were thinking of taking one out now from doing so.

There is nothing at all wrong with lifetime mortgages. With an aging population and declining pensions, there is a huge societal need for these products. In the UK there are at least 13 lenders providing them, including such well known names as  Scottish Widows, Canada Life, Nationwide Building Society, Aviva and Legal & General.  During 2020, over 40,000 elderly people drew down these  lifetime mortgages  with an average of about £100k each.  With all this competition, the interest rates in the UK are much lower because of all the competition.



Since Thursday, we have checked out what our callers said and must say that the programme and the callers completely misrepresented what the Life Loan is.

Some callers used completely inappropriate terms and I should have stopped them. These lenders are not predatory, this lending is not usury, they are not vulture funds or loan sharks, the people are not despicable, the rates are not extortionate – they might be high, but they are not out of line with the market.


*Many people gave the impression that they didn’t understand the way in which the amount borrowed would rise so quickly. That no one told them it was compound interest. They said that the product was mis-sold. *
Well, we got a copy of the brochure that customers got and, fair play to Bank of Ireland, it could not have been any clearer.  It shows up front how much would be owed at the end of each year. How anyone can say now, that they did not realise how much would be due after 15 years, is beyond me.

And the letter of offer showed the projected balance at the end of 5 years, 10 years and 15 years and gave the total interest that would be paid.

And every year, they got a clear statement saying how much the loan had increased by over the past year.


*Some people gave the impression that they went into the bank and were pressurised into taking out a life loan without any advice.  Nothing could be further from the truth. Let me quote from the brochure. *
*Do I need independent financial advice?*

_We would always recommend a customer obtains independent financial advice to ensure that they understand both the terms and conditions and the drawbacks associated with Life Loan._

*Do I need a solicitor?*

_Yes. It is a condition of the loan that all borrowers obtain independent legal advice. You may also wish to involve your family or anyone else likely to be affected by your decision._


*It was suggested by many callers that they did not know the downsides.*
Again, the brochure is very clear. It’s there in big writing and not small print.

*Are there any drawbacks to a Life Loan?*

_• The Life Loan must be repaid in the circumstances set out on page 5, the three principal events being:- once you either sell your home, leave your home for a period of six months or more, or you die

• As you would expect, the Life Loan will reduce the value of your estate. As a result your next-of-kin will receive less inheritance than they would have had you not realised equity from your home

• Customers in receipt of a non contributory pension and who leave the proceeds of their Life Loan on deposit to supplement their income may erode their entitlement to their non contributory pension. In these circumstances, we would recommend customers seek independent financial advice and clarify their entitlement with the Department of Family and Social Affairs

• As no repayments are made during the term of the Life Loan, a significant proportion of the amount to be repaid may comprise of interest_


*I repeatedly said that people didn’t realise it was a mortgage. *
On reflection, I should not have said that. Every aspect of it was clear that the loan was secured on the home. It was clear in the brochure. It should have been clear in the letter of offer. And just in case it wasn’t clear then the solicitor would have pointed it out.


*A lot of people described the interest rate of 6.9% as penal, as extortionate and predatory. *
With interest rates so low at the moment, these interest rates may look high in retrospect.  But at the time, mortgage rates for ordinary mortgages were much higher than they are now.  For example, back in 2004 a 10 year fixed rate was 5.35%.  Fixed rates are higher the longer the rate is fixed for. And as there were no repayments at all until the end, the rate would be higher again. So yes, 6.9% was high, but it was wrong for callers to call it penal or extortionate.

The very first caller on the issue was Ann. She remembered that when she bought her first house, that the interest rates were 15%.     She knew it was 6.1% when she took out the mortgage. And she knows that as she had the loan for 15 years, it’s down to 3% now which is not high.

And she and every other customer got a statement every year showing how much interest had been charged that year.


*Some of the callers grossly exaggerated the figures.*
We know that if a borrower doesn’t pay any capital or interest on a loan at 6.9%, it doubles after 10 years if no interest is paid over those ten years and triples over 15 years.

David said that his mother borrowed “25 grand” and 12 years later it became 85 grand.  We now know that he was on the programme before and in fact, he had borrowed 25 thousand Irish pounds and it was 14 years later, not 12 years later. So €31grand euro became 85 grand euro over 14 years, which is in line with it tripling over 15 years.  And he told us the last time that he had gone into the bank with his mother when she took out the loan, so he shouldn’t have said that the did not realise the implications.

James said his mother borrowed €12k in 2002 and it had risen to €43k by 2012.  That seems wrong and it should have been only €24k after ten years. But we didn’t get to the bottom of it.  He did complain to the Ombudsman who dismissed his complaint, so presumably he had no case.

By the way, the Ombudsman publishes all their decisions and we couldn’t find any decisions on Life Loans – either upheld or rejected. So there doesn’t seem to have been a flood of them. Unlike trackers where the Ombudsman upheld hundreds, if not thousands, of complaints.

Denise said that the original loan was €50k and 5 years later she paid €120k . But that included stamp duty and legal fees as she actually bought the house from her mother.   The balance on the Life Loan would have been only €70k.  As her mother sold the house, there would have been nothing else to pay – no more interest and no early repayment fee.


*Some callers said that the loans could not be repaid early and that if they were repaid all the outstanding interest must be paid up front.*
This was completely untrue.  

Under Irish law, any mortgage can be paid off early.  It is no different for a Life Loan.

The bank is allowed to charge people with a fixed rate mortgage a reasonable early repayment fee, but they are not allowed to make a profit out of it or impose a penalty.

Again, the brochure was crystal clear on this issue:

*If I take out a Life Loan from Bank of Ireland Mortgages can I subsequently decide to repay the loan in full or to make a part repayment?*

_Yes. Life Loan can be repaid in whole or in part at any time. However, because the interest rate is fixed for the first 15 years, you may have to pay an additional repayment sum if Life Loan is repaid in circumstances other than the sale of your home, your leaving your home for a period of 6 months or more, or your death. If you think this may occur then Life Loan may not be the best option for you. _

As with any fixed rate loan, the early repayment fee is quite high at the start of the 15 years, but gets smaller towards the end.

So if the borrower came into money or if their kids wanted to pay the loan off early, they could have done so at any time.

One caller Deirdre  said that her mother had borrowed €30k and when her mother had died, it had risen to €70k .  She had the money to pay off the loan so she didn’t need to sell the house. But she claimed that someone in the Bank told her that she was just in time. Because a week later the bank would have taken the house off her and it was worth €300k.  This was just nonsense and Deirdre must have misunderstood.  If €70k was owed, then that is all that would have been charged.

And there is no early repayment charge after 15 years!

When the 15 years fixed rate is up, the interest changes to a special rate for Lifetime Mortgages of 3% variable. That is a lot less than Bank of Ireland’s variable rates for normal mortgage holders which can be as high as 4.5%!

As it’s a variable rate, it can be repaid fully without any early repayment fee.  And if anyone wants to pay a part of it, they can do so.

And anyone who has passed their 15 years, can avail of Bank of Ireland’s normal fixed rates but the variable rate of 3% is probably better.  

As I say, 3% isn’t a bad rate. If you owe €100,000 today and you live for another 10 years, you will owe €134k after 10 years.   Or if you pay the €250 a month interest charge, after 10 years, you will still owe €100,000.

Most of the calls were from people with Bank of Ireland Life Loans. But some of them took out Lifetime loans with Seniors Money. They did not do fixed rate loans.  And anyone who took out a variable rate loan did better as mortgage rates came down, but they did not have the security of a fixed rate loan.

*7.   So what should you do if you have a Life Loan today and you are worried about it? *

If it’s Bank of Ireland and  it’s past the 15 years, the interest rate is quite low.

If you took it out since 2006, it’s still on the fixed rate of up to 6.9%. If your children can pay off some or all of it early, they should think about it. Talk to a financial advisor.

If you took out a Lifetime Loan with Seniors Money, the one advertised by Mick Lally, it is on a variable rate.  The rates they charge existing customers today is between 2.95% and 4.45% depending on when you took out the loan. As it’s a variable rate loan, you can pay it in full or in part at any time without penalty.



*8.  What if you are worried about the Fair Deal Scheme? *

The Fair Deal Scheme is very complicated.  If you give your child a present of €100k, then the Fair Deal Scheme will add this back when calculating your means. And it’s no different for the Life Loan. If you borrowed money to go on a holiday or to give it to your child, then they will add this back.

On the other hand, if you borrowed the money to fix up your house with new windows or a downstairs bathroom, the Fair Deal Scheme won’t penalise you for it.  Make sure that if you did borrow the money to do up your house, that you keep the receipts to show the HSE when applying for the Fair Deal.

*9. The final question you might be facing now is whether you should take out a Lifetime Loan today from the new company Spry Finance which is also known as Seniors Money? *

There is nothing at all wrong with Lifetime mortgages.  As I said earlier, in the UK there are at least 13 lenders providing them and 40,000 older people took out  lifetime mortgages  last year alone.

These loans are worth considering for the following reasons:


Fixing up your home to make it warmer or more comfortable or to put in a toilet downstairs
Helping your child get on the housing ladder
Paying for health expenses not covered by insurance
You should not take out one of these loans or any loan for the following reasons:


To buy a new car
To go on holiday
To pay for a child’s wedding
To redesign your patio and garden
To lend to your child to clear their business debts
To lend to your child to invest in their business
To make an investment – it’s unlikely that the returns on the investment will cover the interest rate
If you are not paying for these with cash, then say “I can’t afford it.”

But if you do need to fix up your home, see if there is any other way to do it.

Would it be worth selling your big house and buying a smaller more comfortable house instead of borrowing the money?

Would your children be able to lend you the money?  After all, they will get it back when you die. And they won’t have to worry about the possibility of a loan eating up their inheritance.

Of course you could go to a Credit Union, but they will charge you 8% and you will have to pay it back over the next 10 years. The Seniors Money loan is a lot cheaper and much more flexible. You can pay it back if you want to, or you can let the interest roll up.



But if you do decide to go for a Lifetime loan today…

If you borrow €100k today and make no payments in the meantime, you will owe €170k after 10 years and €225k after 15 years.

And if you borrow €100k today and pay the interest of €500 a month every month, well after 15 years you will still owe €100k.

Of course, no one knows what will happen to house prices over the next 10 or 15 years. While some of the callers last week took out a Life Loan around the peak of property prices and so their house is worth less today, in general, customers with these products should see the house increase in value by more than the life loan increases, but there is no guarantee of that.

So if you are living in a draughty house and are afraid to turn on the heating because of the expense, then you are better off taking out a life time mortgage and fixing up your house. You might as well live the last 20 years of your life in comfort than live it in the freezing cold so that your children’s inheritance won’t be reduced. Of course, if you are rattling around on your own in a 5 bed draughty house, maybe you should consider selling the house and buying a smaller one which would be cheaper to maintain and more comfortable.


----------



## SGWidow (2 Feb 2021)

Hi Brendan,

Will you give over wih that aul guff?!

The truth is that Joe likes to give the impression of being fair to all sides (.....the most wonderfully transparent programme this side of Jupiter). He also likes to luxuriate in the errors of others whilst pretending to be a dacent skin.

The true test of his integrity is how he deals with his own failings when the lens is focussed on him.

I suspect that the radio silence with which your critique will be treated will be telling as it will show, what I've always suspected, that Joey Babe ain't really interested in the truth and fair play. He is interested in saying what the poor craythurs of Ireland expect him to say. In this regard, he is capable of out-sinning the Sinners


----------



## NoRegretsCoyote (2 Feb 2021)

The Broadcasting Authority of Ireland (BAI) has guidelines on "Fairness, Objectivity & Impartiality". This obliges all broadcasters to ensure that:



> the broadcast treatment of current affairs, including matters which are either of public controversy or the subject of current public debate, is fair to all interests concerned and that the broadcast matter is presented in an objective and impartial manner



If anyone thinks that Liveline breached this code you can make a complaint *to RTÉ* within 30 days of broadcast. (Maybe not Brendan has he was actually on the show.) This is the BAI's guide for complainants. This is the RTÉ complaints page.

A complaint has to focus very clearly and explicitly on how the programme breached the fairness, objectivity and impartiality criteria. I think the most useful angle of attack would be on *objectivity *grounds (ie, *getting facts wrong*, and *letting wrong facts go unchallenged*). RTÉ will argue that it was fair and impartial because the let dissenting voices on (Brendan).

If you are not satisfied with RTÉ's reply you can then complain *to the BAI*. This is the link.


----------



## PMU (2 Feb 2021)

Complaints to public bodies usually fall because the complaint is not provided within the framework within which the public body considers complaints. This framework is usually provided for by legislation.  In the case of RTE this is the Broadcasting Act and their Code of Practice for Handling Complaints states:

"RTÉ is obliged under Section 39 (1) of the Broadcasting Act 2009 to ensure that: 

(a) all news broadcast is reported and presented in an objective and impartial manner and without any expression of the broadcaster’s own views.

(b) the broadcast treatment of current affairs, including matters which are either of public controversy or the subject of current public debate, is fair to all interests concerned and that the broadcast matter is presented in an objective and impartial manner and without any expression of his or her own views, except that should it prove impracticable in relation to a single broadcast to apply this paragraph, two or more related broadcasts may be considered as a whole, if the broadcasts are transmitted within a reasonable period of each other."

Hopefully I'm wrong but I don't think your complaint, i.e. your e-mail to RTE, will be entertained.  Essentially the complaint is that the program may result in negative consequences for the market for life loans in Ireland, because of errors in the programme.  This may be a consequence of the programme, but that would not appear to be the basis of a complaint under the Broadcasting Act, which is concerned with complaints of fairness and objectivity in the way matter is broadcast, and not with the consequential effects of  broadcasts.


----------



## Brendan Burgess (2 Feb 2021)

Hi PMU

I suppose that while I put the word "complaint" in the title, I would really prefer if I did not need to make a complaint. 

I want them to correct the record. 

If they reject my suggestion, then I will make a complaint and rephrase it along the lines you and Coyote have said.

Brendan


----------



## MrEarl (2 Feb 2021)

Hello Mr Burgess,

Some fine work above, in your messages to RTE.

I find myself sitting here, smiling, as I picture Joe having to read out your submission, correcting the misinformation that he's already helped to share, and then having that light bulb moment... where he realises that a life loan may actually be the answer to his own concerns, regarding how he'll fund his retirement


----------



## Brendan Burgess (3 Feb 2021)

Hi Peanuts 

I would say that there may be cases of sons persuading their mothers to take out such loans.  I doubt if you would find cases where BoI suggested to a parent to take out one of these to clear their son's debt to Bank of Ireland. 

It was a sensitive product and I believe it was promoted ethically.   There might be examples where Bank staff did not follow the guidelines.  But there was always the fallback of the solicitor to say "This is not a good idea Mrs Peanuts" 

Read the shiny brochures for this product and I think you will come to a different conclusion.  They were a model of clarity.  They pointed out the downsides.  They pointed out that after 15 years, the amount you  owe will be X. 

The Ombudsman and Central Bank have upheld multiple complaints on tracker mortgages.

I can't find any complaints - upheld or rejected - on the Ombudsman's website.

One of the callers to the programme did say that he had made a complaint but it was rejected by the Ombudsman.

Brendan


----------



## Brendan Burgess (3 Feb 2021)

I was speaking to a financial advisor today.

Client's age:75
House value €500k
Bank of Scotland interest only mortgage :€150k  - past its term.

BoSI (Pepper?) wants the loan repaid.

She wants to stay in the house.
Neither she nor her kids have the money. 

Up until Seniors Money relaunched, she would have had no choice but to sell the house. She could have dragged it out in the courts for 4 years, but that would have been horrible.

Now she has been approved for LifeTime Loan
The kids will pay the interest every month as it arises. 
If they have extra cash, they will reduce the loan. 

And experts on the programme said that this product should be banned!

Brendan


----------



## Brendan Burgess (22 Feb 2021)

I sent this email to the complaints Department in RTE today

Thanks to No Regrets Coyote for some suggestions and, in particular, for drawing my attention to the RTE Journalism Guidelines, of which I had not been aware.

It's another long read.  And it's really just a formalisation of my previous informal suggestion.


Brendan 


_As I received no response to my informal suggestion as to how you could undo the damage done by the above programmes, I am now lodging the attached formal complaint.

I look forward to getting your response within 30 days. _

To: Complaints Department, RTE by email to complaints@rte.ie; joe@rte.ie

From: Brendan Burgess,

Programme complained of: Liveline on Wednesday 27th January and Thursday 28th January.

22 February 2021



I wish to make a formal complaint about the above programmes.

*The programmes were in clear breach of the following principles and rules of the BAI Codes:*​


Objectivity and Impartiality
Accuracy and Responsiveness
_19. Views and facts shall not be misrepresented or presented in such a way as to render them misleading. *Presenters should be sensitive to the impact of their language and tone* in reporting news and current affairs so as to avoid misunderstanding of the matters covered.

20. *A significant mistake shall be acknowledged and rectified* as speedily as possible, in an appropriate and proportionate manner. 

21. A news presenter and/or a reporter in a news programme may not express his or her own view on matters that are either of public controversy or the subject of current public debate.

22. It is an important part of the role of a presenter of a current affairs programme to ensure that the audience has access to *a wide variety of views* on the subject of the programme or item; 

Accuracy and Responsiveness principle

… Accuracy is therefore a fundamental principle associated with the broadcast of news and current affairs content and should always take priority over the speed with which content can be delivered. It is also acknowledged that despite best efforts, inaccurate information can sometimes be conveyed, whether explicitly or implicitly. The principle of responsiveness is designed to ensure that broadcasters adopt fair, timely and appropriate remedies in handling the broadcast of inaccurate information._



*The programmes were also in clear multiple breach of the RTE Journalism Guidelines *​As many of them duplicate the BAI Guidelines, I will quote only a few of them

_4.5 Serving the Public Interest
…

We are rigorous in establishing the truth of a story and we are well informed when explaining it.

7.3 Accuracy

…

Where appropriate to the output, we should:

• check and cross check facts 

…

• *wherever possible corroborate claims and allegations made by contributors and ensure that contentious statements or opinions are not cloaked by anonymity *

8.4 Personal Views of Presenters, Reporters and Correspondents

…

Our audiences should not be able to tell from our output the personal views of our journalists or news and current affairs presenters on matters of public policy, political or industrial controversy, or on ‘controversial subjects’ in any other area.

11.3 Live Programming and Fairness 

In live programming, such as phonein shows, there may be particular difficulties in following the exact procedures and protocols set down in these guidelines*. However, the same standards apply to such programmes. *Programme-makers in phone-in shows must do their utmost to ensure that fairness, objectivity and impartiality, as well as a respect for privacy, remain paramount. _





*The programmes were in breach of BAI Rule 22 requiring access to a wide variety of views. *​

*The Programmes were also in clear breach of the RTE Journalism Guideline 11.3 requiring objectivity and an effort to contact relevant potential contributors. *​

_22. It is an important part of the role of a presenter of a current affairs programme to ensure that the audience has access to *a wide variety of views* on the subject of the programme or item; _

Guideline 11.3 _ Programme-makers in phone-in shows must do their utmost to ensure that fairness, objectivity and impartiality, as well as a respect for privacy, remain paramount.

In live programming dealing with rolling or breaking news issues, every effort should be made to contact relevant potential contributors as early as possible._

On the first day, there were 10 callers condemning the product. There were no callers or experts allowed through to defend or explain the product.

On the second day, there were 4 callers condemning the product and 3 experts condemning the product. I was the one and only caller allowed through to correct the mistake made by the callers and to challenge their outrageous claims.

That is a total of 17 to 1, or 18 to 1 if you include the presenter on the side of the critics.

The programme did invite Bank of Ireland and Seniors Money onto the programme. Of course, it would have been impossible for a lender to get a fair hearing on a call-in programme and so they declined. Look at the abuse I got from the callers when I was trying to set out the facts. I am a consumer advocate - imagine how a spokesperson from the lenders would have been abused.

Why did the programme not put through callers who had benefited from the product or advisors who thought that the product was useful?

If there were no such callers, it was the duty of the programme to seek out such callers or experts who would explain the product as is specifically mandated by Guideline 11.3: _every effort should be made to contact relevant potential contributors as early as possible._



*The programmes were in clear breach of the RTE Journalism Guideline 7.3 on Accuracy and Guideline 4.5 on Serving the Public Interest *​_7.3 Accuracy

Where appropriate to the output, we should:

…

• check and cross check facts 

…

• *wherever possible corroborate claims and allegations made by contributors and ensure that contentious statements or opinions are not cloaked by anonymity *

4.5 Serving the Public Interest

…

*We are rigorous in establishing the truth of a story* and we are well informed when explaining it._

There was no evidence whatsoever of _any_ effort to establish the truth of the outrageous claims made by the contributors, much less a rigorous effort.

There was no evidence of _any_ attempt to corroborate the claims and allegations.

The callers made multiple significant mistakes and outrageous claims about the product. Not only did the presenter not challenge these, but he repeated them as if they were factual and accurate.

I have documented those mistakes and outrageous claims on the attached letter to the Producer asking her to correct them.

I also attach a copy of the Life Loan brochure from 2004 which would have made it clear to the presenter and the researchers just how outrageous the claims made by callers were.

The presenter should have corrected those mistakes and challenged those outrageous claims _as they were made._ The topic of Life Loans was covered by the programme in January 2016. I was on the programme at the time explaining the product and correcting those errors. And, a few days later another expert, John Lowe was on the programme explaining the product.

As they had covered it before, the researchers and presenter ought to have known enough about the product so that the presenter would not allow repeated significant mistakes to be broadcast.

Yet, the presenter allowed these outrageous claims and errors to be broadcast without challenge.

*The programmes were in clear breach of BAI Rule 20 requiring mistakes to be corrected*​

*The programmes were also in clear breach of the RTE Journalism Guideline no. 16.3*​

_20. *A significant mistake shall be acknowledged and rectified* as speedily as possible, in an appropriate and proportionate manner. _

RTE Journalism Guideline 16.3:_ If the mistake is more significant and the view is taken that the public record needs amending, the programme or service responsible for the broadcast or publication of the inaccurate information will clarify matters as soon as is feasible._

Having made those mistakes, it was incumbent on the programme to correct them. I emailed the producer of the programme a few days later asking that they read out a statement correcting all the errors. I did not even receive an acknowledgment.

*These same standards apply to Live Programming *

I think it’s worth reproducing Guideline 11.3 again in case the producer of the programmes defends the programmes by claiming they have no control over what callers say.

_11.3 Live Programming and Fairness 

In live programming, such as phonein shows, there may be particular difficulties in following the exact procedures and protocols set down in these guidelines. However, the same standards apply to such programmes. Programme-makers in phone-in shows must do their utmost to ensure that fairness, objectivity and impartiality, as well as a respect for privacy, remain paramount. 

In live programming dealing with rolling or breaking news issues, every effort should be made to contact relevant potential contributors as early as possible. Be aware that the notice may be too short to enable contributors to be sufficiently informed or to have determined their responses. The audience may need to be informed that insufficient notice was given to interests where participation in a programme could be expected._



*The presenter was in clear breach of Rules 19 and 21 of the BAI Codes and the RTE Journalism Guideline 8.4 that he should not express personal views. *​

BAI Code _19. … Presenters should be sensitive to the impact of their language and tone in reporting news and current affairs so as to avoid misunderstanding of the matters covered.

BAI Code 21. A news presenter and/or a reporter in a news programme may not express his or her own view on matters that are either of public controversy or the subject of current public debate._

RTE Journalism Guideline 8.4

_Our audiences should not be able to tell from our output the personal views of our journalists or news and current affairs presenters on matters of public policy, political or industrial controversy, or on ‘controversial subjects’ in any other area._

It was very clear from the presenter’s language and tone and the fact that he did not challenge the callers what his views on this product were.

_It was compound interest – and the Bank will say it was all in the small print – it was compound interest – compound interest 6% 

It was fixed for a fixed term. If you won the lotto and paid it off early, you would have to pay the interest for 15 years – believe it or not. 

We had these incredible figures yesterday – a loan for 30k now owe 90k . 

A lifeloan is a hefty, hefty debt on your house 

As we heard yesterday – the bank owns more than the value of the house _[no it doesn’t – all such loans have a guarantee that there will be no negative equity]_ 

As the BoI said yesterday: this was all approved by the Regulator.

Something about small print 

There are no less than 5 different warnings in 5 different boxes. Does that not raise the question . If you are putting a product on the market that requires 5 separate warnings, does someone not say…

Give over this old guff that [the high rate] is due to programmes like this _[in response to the one caller, me, explaining why the interest rates were so high.]

_You can hear the despair in people’s voices _

And nonsensical stuff from the presenter about whether legal advice was required or not.

And more nonsensical stuff from the presenter that people did not see it as a mortgage, but as a trip to Lourdes.

The presenter did make occasional comments in defence of the product.

_The sign says Bank of Ireland – it doesn’t say St Vincent de Paul – society depends on them.

One commentator said “Why leave all the money to your children, spend it on yourself. And someone said yesterday she liked going to Lourdes and Fatima. So why should they tell their children.

The high charges, not criminal. _[in response to a caller who called them criminal]

While the presenter did balance the comments on occasion, his comments and his tone were clearly prejudiced and biased against the product.



*The programmes were in clear breach of RTE’s public service remit.*​​The breaches referred to above were not some technical breaches of annoying codes and guidelines on some minor issue affecting only a few thousand people. The RTE Journalism Guidelines and BAI Codes are important in ensuring that RTE broadcasts high quality, unbiased and balanced programmes.

The topic of life loans is very important and it deserves to be covered in a high quality, unbiased and balanced manner.

With an aging population and declining pensions, there is a huge societal need for these products. In the UK there are at least 13 lenders providing them, including such well-known names as Scottish Widows, Canada Life, Nationwide Building Society, Aviva and Legal & General. During 2020, over 40,000 elderly people drew down these lifetime mortgages with an average of about £100k each. The interest rates in the UK are much lower because of all the competition.

We need to have a balanced, adult conversation in this country about these products:


Their pros and cons
The risk and rewards
When they should be used and when they should be avoided
Alternatives to these products
The costs and ways of minimising the costs
How they should be marketed and explained to consumers
The irony is that many of the listeners to Liveline are in the demographic that could hugely benefit from these products.

Some of the listeners to the programmes already have these products and will be frightened by the programme that they have made a huge mistake and will be excluded from the Fair Deal Scheme.

Others who could benefit from taking out a life loan now will be discouraged from doing so by your horror stories.

*Redress required.*​
Liveline should at the earliest possible opportunity, broadcast an expert-led programme on these products. It should not be a phone-in. But a calm discussion among experts. Which could be followed by a phone-in with questions about the products.
In future, when dealing with any complex financial issue, the programme should do rigorous research _beforehand_ to ensure that the presenter is adequately briefed so that he can challenge outrageous claims and correct mistakes as they are broadcast.


----------



## bungaro (22 Feb 2021)

Leper said:


> . . . . . . . more good publicity for Joe Duffy against the Dons of high finance and welcomed by Joe, I think - playing right into his hands.
> . . . . . . . and what redress do I think you'll get = Quick worded statement by Joe within seconds of the end of some uninteresting programme on a wet Tuesday.



Brendan - I am glad you did not take that attitude to the AIB
Prevailing Rate issue. The near 6000 who in total benefitted around 330 million sure appreciated it. Sometimes, the system works as it should, so an
occasional success outweighs the failures


----------



## Bronte (22 Feb 2021)

Point 22 Joe Duffy is not a current affairs programme. It’s light entertainment.

point 21, Duffy is not a reporter or news presenter. He’s an entertainer. Or radio presenter.

But it is clear Duffy was biased and egging people on. I also think there was a deliberate strategy to cut in on Burgess and leave him hanging.  I wonder was that communicated during the show to Joe by the managers, and would there be a record of that.


----------



## Brendan Burgess (22 Feb 2021)

Hi Bronte

It was about 7 or 8 to one.   A lot of people said that he cut me off to go to ad breaks. 

I did not feel that at the time. And listening back to it, he did give me a fair chance. The others did shout me down a few times, ok. 

I would expect that some RTE Committee will listen to it and will make up their own mind.   Assuming, they close ranks, I will send it on to the BAI. 

It is a fair bit of work, but it has to be done.  Very few complaints against RTE succeed with the BAI, but it might make them reflect on the issue before covering again. Or a dismissed complaint might embolden the programme, knowing that they can get away with it.

Brendan


----------



## Bronte (22 Feb 2021)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Hi Bronte
> 
> It was about 7 or 8 to one.   A lot of people said that he cut me off to go to ad breaks.
> 
> ...


As you know I spent  time listening back, I think you were deliberately cut out. I’ve been listening to him for entertainment  for  years. My opinion is you were set up/used. That’s how the show works. My angle for you is can you get info on what was directed as regards the transmission instructions under Freedom of Information.


----------



## Brendan Burgess (23 Mar 2021)

A technical question.

I have got a reply from RTE which just rejects all the points made, so I will refer it to the BAI. 

But in the complaint, they say: 

_As the complaints procedure deals with perceived breaches of the Broadcasting Act and/or BAI Codes and not RTE Journalism Guidelines, I will address your points related to the former._

There is a huge overlap anyway between the two so dropping references to the Journalism Guidelines doesn't weaken the complaint that much.

I put in a call to the BAI about this, and am awaiting a response. But does anyone know

1) Does the BAI pay any attention to RTE's own Journalism Guidelines? 
2) If not, does that mean that there is no scope for complaints about breaches of these guidelines to anyone? 

Brendan


----------



## NoRegretsCoyote (23 Mar 2021)

Brendan Burgess said:


> 1) Does the BAI pay any attention to RTE's own Journalism Guidelines?


Maybe, but not in the context of your complaint.



Brendan Burgess said:


> 2) If not, does that mean that there is no scope for complaints about breaches of these guidelines to anyone?




RTÉ doesn't seem to have any kind of external appeals or complaints body so once RTÉ is done with you the only port of all is the BAI.


----------



## Leper (23 Mar 2021)

Hi Brendan,
My advice would be to quit this while you're behind. You don't have anything to gain other than (at most) a recorded quick verbal apology read at speed on a wet Tuesday 2.59pm just as most of the population will be switching off. That "apology" may be followed up by another written apology in Page 27 (bottom left hand corner) of the RTE Guide as if somebody will find it.

Lep


----------



## Brendan Burgess (23 Mar 2021)

The BAI called me back  very promptly.

They will consider complaints only under the legislation and codes, and not under the Journalism Guidelines.

Just for anyone else thinking of submitting a complaint, there is no point in complaining to RTE about breaches of their Journalism Guidelines. They will reject the complaint and you can't go anywhere else with it after that. 

So focus on the the legislation and the BAI Codes.

Brendan


----------



## Brendan Burgess (23 Mar 2021)

Hi Lep

Was it you who advised me to not waste my time going to the Ombudsman on the AIB Prevailing Rate Case? 

Brendan


----------



## Leper (23 Mar 2021)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Hi Lep
> 
> Was it you who advised me to not waste my time going to the Ombudsman on the AIB Prevailing Rate Case?
> 
> Brendan


No Brendan, It was not me! - repeat - It was not me.

Looks like you're going ahead anyway with the Joe Duffy thing. Off you go. But please remember I advised you to quit while you're behind.

Lep


----------



## Brendan Burgess (23 Mar 2021)

Sorry Leper

I am confusing you with someone else.

Was it you who told me in 1999 not to be wasting my time setting up a consumer forum online.   You predicted that less than 1% of the people who would benefit would ever say thanks, yet 100% of the people whose posts had to be moderated or who didn't like the answer they got would become abusive to me online and in person. 

Well you were right about the 1% and the 100% but you were wrong about my motivation. I wasn't doing it to be thanked.

Brendan


----------



## Leper (23 Mar 2021)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Sorry Leper
> 
> I am confusing you with someone else.
> 
> ...


Hi Brendan,

In 1999 I had never heard of you. Please let me confirm that it was not I who told you not to be wasting your time setting up a consumer forum. I made no predictions regarding the forum whatsoever either. I didn't know of the existence of this forum until about 12/13 years ago when I joined. I have praised this forum on many occasions and never have I criticised its reasons for existence. Furthermore, I never said you were doing anything to be thanked. I don't know why you are making these untrue statements. 

Lep


----------



## Brendan Burgess (23 Mar 2021)

Sorry Leper

Maybe it was you who told me that I was wasting my time researching mortgage rates and discovering that the Central Bank was lying about the rates by including trackers as new business?  And that I was wasting my time highlighting the issue? 

Brendan


----------



## jpd (23 Mar 2021)

You might get further by approaching one of RTE's competitors with the complaint and see if they would be interested in airing your viewpoint


----------



## Leper (23 Mar 2021)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Sorry Leper
> 
> Maybe it was you who told me that I was wasting my time researching mortgage rates and discovering that the Central Bank was lying about the rates by including trackers as new business?  And that I was wasting my time highlighting the issue?
> 
> Brendan


Hi Brendan,

Once again, It was not I who said you were wasting your time researching mortgage rates and discovering that the Central Bank was lying about the rates including trackers as a new business. 

Lep


----------



## Brendan Burgess (23 Mar 2021)

OK,

It's just amazing that over the years so many people have told me that I am wasting time complaining about things or seeking change.  

Of course, many of them achieve nothing. 

But like this complaint about Joe Duffy.  The BAI might uphold it or they might reject it. 

It doesn't mean that I have wasted my time. 

It's called trying to make people accountable. 

But you might be right. It's probably a waste of time and people should not ever try anything, in case they don't succeed.

Brendan


----------



## Leper (23 Mar 2021)

Brendan Burgess said:


> OK,
> 
> It's just amazing that over the years so many people have told me that I am wasting time complaining about things or seeking change.
> 
> ...


Hi Brendan,
1. I never told you that you are wasting time complaining about things or seeking change.
2. I never said people should not be made accountable.
3. I never said people should not ever try anything.

Lep


----------



## MrEarl (23 Mar 2021)

Brendan Burgess said:


> It's called trying to make people accountable.


If more people took a proactive approach, the country would be a far better place!

One of our greatest faults, as a nation, is the level of rubbish that we put up with.

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil, is for good men to do nothing.”― Edmund Burke.


----------



## Deiseblue (23 Mar 2021)

Appearing on the Joe Duffy show defending an Irish Bank's financial offering is akin to a fully bedecked Celtic supporter wandering into the home end in Ibrox .
Brave but ultimately destined to end in disaster. 
I fully agree that the life loan is an admirable policy but demands a civilised panel discussion on a program not on a bull baiting program such as Joe Duffy's where a balanced view is a rarity.


----------



## Bronte (23 Mar 2021)

Brendan Burgess said:


> You predicted that less than 1% of the people who would benefit would ever say thanks, yet 100% of the people whose posts had to be moderated or who didn't like the answer they got would become abusive to me online and in person.
> 
> Well you were right about the 1% and the 100%


Now ain't that the truth. You're not the only one to get dog's abuse of course but you get most of it.  I've always thought it very nice when the very odd poster came back on here to tell us how it had worked out, how they got on and how they were helped on here 

You are also mentioned disparagingly on other websites I've noticed.  

What is really annoying is when posters come on looking for advice, one gives one's honest opinion and the poster takes great offence to the advice.  They are strangers to us, what would be the point of on here if we only told people what they wanted to hear.


----------



## losttheplot (23 Mar 2021)

Ironically, when Irish people do want to complain about something who do they complain to...Joe Duffy.


----------



## Leper (23 Mar 2021)

losttheplot said:


> Ironically, when Irish people do want to complain about something who do they complain to...Joe Duffy.


Like, love, hate Joe Duffy. He is essentially an entertainer and he is influential. He knows his job, he is well trained with truck loads of experience and he has a back-up/support team that work their socks off for him. Arguing/debating with Joe Duffy needs much skill, something that many lack. Whether you agree with him or not In the words of a Dancing with  the Stars panellist Joe Duffy is BoxOffice. Everything else is secondary.


----------



## mathepac (23 Mar 2021)

MrEarl said:


> If more people took a proactive approach, the country would be a far better place!


This kind of post worries me.  All of Brendan's / AAM's most successful campaigns have been reactive - they took or take place after an event or a series of them had occurred.  Would I be writing to Ms. eir about bad customer service and poor products before experiencing them?   No?  Then my interactions with her are reactive i.e. after the event and they had a trigger.

It's a bit like the famous press briefing where a senior Garda member (note: not a Garda officer, as there is no such thing) stated how proud he was about the force's success in proactively solving crime!!  Along with the hums, ahhs, ehms, d'you know wot I mean, looks, listens, at the end of the days, WOW factors, Oh my Gods and other rubbish dumped into oral communications these days. Totally unique, oxymoron or almost unique, aka  "scarce", the hanging interrogative at the end of a written statement.  Watch how Brendan and most of the mods write - it's different to post posters.


----------



## Gordon Gekko (23 Mar 2021)

Leper said:


> Like, love, hate Joe Duffy. He is essentially an entertainer and he is influential. He knows his job, he is well trained with truck loads of experience and he has a back-up/support team that work their socks off for him. Arguing/debating with Joe Duffy needs much skill, something that many lack. Whether you agree with him or not In the words of a Dancing with  the Stars panellist Joe Duffy is BoxOffice. Everything else is secondary.



Only because of the number of idiots in the country, Leper.

I would welcome the opportunity to take him on in relation to something like LifeLoans.


----------



## mathepac (23 Mar 2021)

Be his guest @gordon give him a ring or drop him an email.


----------



## Gordon Gekko (23 Mar 2021)

mathepac said:


> Be his guest @gordon give him a ring or drop him an email.



No thanks. Not a runner even though I’d love to.


----------



## Leper (23 Mar 2021)

Gordon Gekko said:


> No thanks. Not a runner even though I’d love to.


I thought you said "I would welcome the opportunity to take him on . . . " But, wisely you well know Joe Duffy seldom loses on home ground. And the overriding message is Don't Talk to Joe.


----------



## losttheplot (23 Mar 2021)

Podge and Rodge almost got him. 'Would you describe yourself as a socialist Joe?' When he said yes they kept quoting his salary.
Defending banks or insurance companies in Ireland will never go down well.
In some ways Brendan is the financial equivalent of Joe. If you have a financial issue, talk to Brendan. Brendan will tell if you're taking the mick quicker than Joe though. And rightly so most cases.


----------



## Gordon Gekko (23 Mar 2021)

Leper said:


> I thought you said "I would welcome the opportunity to take him on . . . " But, wisely you well know Joe Duffy seldom loses on home ground. And the overriding message is Don't Talk to Joe.


Nope, I absolutely would welcome the opportunity to take him on. I’d love to. But I can’t for work reasons.


----------



## mathepac (23 Mar 2021)

But you could do so anonymously (unless you're his boss or he's yours). I've appeared on the Joe Show 3 times over the years as Tom, Dick and Gerry.  They verified mi ID and respected my need for anonymity based on the topics under discussion.


----------



## Brendan Burgess (15 Apr 2021)

Interesting to see the BAI upholding a complaint against Matt Cooper for not challenging a panel member who described JK Rowling as a bigot.









						BAI complaint over JK Rowling ‘transphobia’ accusation upheld
					

Harry Potter author was referred to as a ‘bigot’ during segment of show on Today FM




					www.irishtimes.com
				




This is one of the key elements of my complaint: 

_“While the principle of fairness does not require that all possible opinions on a topic are explored, or that artificial balance is achieved, the committee noted that the nature of current affairs coverage is such that the presenter plays a critical role in challenging the views of guests and contributors, in the public interest.

“The committee had regard for the fact that, in this instance, the presenter did not challenge the panel member or facilitate the exploration of alternative viewpoints._

Brendan


----------



## NoRegretsCoyote (15 Apr 2021)

The same rules apply for Newstalk and RTE it's true.

In my view RTE should be held to a higher standard as they are funded by the license fee.


----------



## cremeegg (15 Apr 2021)

Brendan Burgess said:


> OK,
> 
> It's just amazing that over the years so many people have told me that I am wasting time complaining about things or seeking change.


Well I just want to say that I admire anyone who takes the time to object to any injustice or abuse of power. The advances those people achieve improve life for all of us.

From Emma De Souza to yourself Brendan.

GBS said that it is only unreasonable people who change the world.


----------



## Early Riser (15 Apr 2021)

cremeegg said:


> GBS said that it is only unreasonable people who change the world.


 But unreasonable people also seriously mess it up. GBS was a great fan of Stalin.


----------



## SDMXTWO (19 Apr 2021)

Brendan Burgess said:


> *Suggested statement *
> 
> We covered the issue of Life Loans from Bank of Ireland on Wednesday and Thursday last.
> 
> ...


Hi Brendan, At point 8. above can you explain the 'add it back'. I have recently found out my father gave a 'loan' of 80k to my sister. He is now in a very expensive NH.

*8. What if you are worried about the Fair Deal Scheme?*

The Fair Deal Scheme is very complicated. If you give your child a present of €100k, then the Fair Deal Scheme will add this back when calculating your means. And it’s no different for the Life Loan. If you borrowed money to go on a holiday or to give it to your child, then they will add this back.


----------



## Brendan Burgess (19 Apr 2021)

Fair Deal/Nursing Homes - Fair Deal Scheme and  Life Loans
					

I didn't understand this discussion on the Joe Duffy Show just now, so I googled it and found this new (to me anyway?) website.  https://fairdealadvice.ie/life-loans-and-their-implications-on-long-term-care-funding/  As many of these loans are taken out to fund lifestyle the HSE will not deduct...



					www.askaboutmoney.com


----------



## Brendan Burgess (3 Jun 2021)

Ironically, RTE has a podcast series at the moment called The Truth Matters 

_In the first episode of our podcast series, The Truth Matters: A Guide to Misinformation, we spent time understanding the nature of the problem, and looked at how media literacy has a role to play in combating it. In the second, we learned how to talk to friends who are going down the conspiracy rabbit hole._









						Truth Matters: RTÉ, RTÉ News, Be Media Smart, Campaign, Fake News
					

Truth Matters: RTÉ, RTÉ News, Be Media Smart, Campaign, Fake News, misinformation, trust




					www.rte.ie
				












						RTÉ Radio
					






					www.rte.ie
				




I couldn't find out how to contact the programme to suggest that they do an episode on Joe Duffy.

Brendan


----------



## Baby boomer (22 Nov 2021)

Brendan Burgess said:


> The BAI called me back  very promptly.
> 
> They will consider complaints only under the legislation and codes, and not under the Journalism Guidelines.
> 
> ...


 Hi Brendan,

Just been re-reading the threads on this.  Very disappointed the BAI rejected your complaint.  You made some good points in your response to their finding on 2nd June.  Did they reply at all, I'm wondering?  






						The BAI has rejected my complaint about the Joe Duffy programme on Life Loans
					

I read all of the threads mentioned here.  I admire what Brendan does and think the Irish people/state owe him a debt of gratitude. And I hope you continue to do it Brendan.   It's clear that if nobody complains nothing will change. If more complain something might change. And vast majority...



					www.askaboutmoney.com


----------



## Brendan Burgess (22 Nov 2021)

Hi BB

No, they did not respond to my response.

BB


----------



## Baby boomer (22 Nov 2021)

That's actually appalling, Brendan.  Bad enough that's there's no appeal, but offering a pale substitute for an appeal, and then proceeding to ignore it, just adds insult to injury.


----------



## Brendan Burgess (23 Nov 2021)

Hi BB

The  whole process was appalling. 

They put no questions to RTE. For example, they did not ask them why they had no one else speaking on the other side of the argument. 

Their communication to me was obscure - very hard to understand. 

That final bit was not an appeal - just a chance to make further observations, but they had made it clear that their decision was final.

BB


----------



## Baby boomer (23 Nov 2021)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Hi BB
> 
> The  whole process was appalling.
> 
> ...


Brendan, 

What about putting in an FOI request for any internal or external correspondence or records related to your 2nd June response to them?   It might be embarrassing for them to have to admit that they didn't actually do anything with it.  (If that is indeed the case, as seems likely.)


----------



## Brendan Burgess (23 Nov 2021)

Hi BB

At this stage, I have moved on. It was very time consuming.

BB


----------



## Baby boomer (24 Nov 2021)

Fair enough.  You fought the good fight, though.  An act of good citizenship - be proud of it.


----------



## Up Rovers (29 Jul 2022)

SGWidow said:


> I suspect that the radio silence with which your critique will be treated will be telling as it will show, what I've always suspected, that Joey Babe ain't really interested in the truth and fair play. He is interested in saying what the poor craythurs of Ireland expect him to say. In this regard, he is capable of out-sinning the Sinners



Looks like even more of the craythurs of Ireland not bothering listening to Joe these days


----------

