# UB wants me to surrender home in positive equity : Good outcome evenutally



## Polly 123 (26 Aug 2018)

Thread title updated to reflect outcome - Brendan 

I am currently finished a 5 year deal with my mortgage supplier which was at a reduced interest rate and following 2 other short term options lasting 6months and 1 year respectively.

I have again completed an up to date MARP form for consideration and I got a call to say that when they input the figures its is coming up as voluntary surrender.

Current Mortgage 120k
Current value 255k
Years left  to pay - less that 7 of a 20 year mortgage

Less that 1k arrears at present, this is down to them losing my MARP forms in the first case and then having to wait for a slot for a customer services rep to call me which took 6 weeks.

I have never missed a payment in the last 6 years I have always kept in contact with them, I have asked them to consider spreading my repayment over 20 years to allow us to stay in the house, this will be possible as the payments are similar to now and I hope to rejoin the workforce even part-time within the next year or two, (I am a single parent with a special needs child who does not attend school on a full time basis)

Is it possible to negotiate something like this when voluntary surrender comes up following their assessment?

How many times can you use MARP or be under their protection?

My main concern is to keep a home for myself and my child to live it, I know I would have approx. 120k clear if I sold it myself now but I would get nothing in our local area for this amount for us to live.

Any suggestions, encouragement or advice while I am waiting for them to come back to me in writing about what my options are?


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## Polly 123 (10 Sep 2018)

Apologies for delay in replying, have had a lot going on .

I cant seem to copy the link you show above Brendan but I've included everything below,thanks

*INCOME:*
Social Welfare for One Parent family/ reduced carers   1,344
DCA                                                                         309
Child Benefit                                                             140
Maintenance                                                              160

Car needed for medical appointments
Childcare costs - Nil (family helping out)


*HOME LOAN*
Lender : Ulsterbank
Outstanding:                                                          120,400
Value of Home:                                                       250k-260k
Interest Rate : SVR  4.5%
Monthly Payment due (following 5 year agreement:    1,513
During agreement                                                    620
Amount in arrears                                                    1,800 (shortfall of actual full payment and affordable payment x 2 months while waiting for UB to come back to me)

No Investments

Credit Union Shares                                                   90.00
Credit Union Loan                                                      265.00


*OTHER loans and creditors*

Credit Card                                                                2,500 @19%
Paying minimum                                                       €80 pm

No other loans
No other savings
No lump sum expected

*HOW IMPORTANT IS IT RETAINING YOUR FAMILY HOME*

I really want to keep the family home


*ANY OTHER RELEVANT INFORMATION*
I am trying to find part time employment for when child is in school so not to have childcare costs unfortunately not much going in our area, probably will earn minimum to €10 ph based on jobs in local area.  Mortgage was taken out when I was in full time employment and there was never an issue with payment, work was then reduced to part time but could still make payments.  Eventually job went, worked with UB on agreeing on interest only term when working on a CE scheme after that, they agreed a new 5 year plan which was reduced interest rate, all payments were made monthly and never missed since I've been in MARP.  Contacted UB in April regarding options when deal was up in August, got a reply in late May, completed SFS with all info requested and sent by registered post, heard nothing so rang 3weeks later they had no record of my SFS so gave me date and time for 7 weeks later when I would get a call from arrears support unit, in the meantime full mortgage repayment was due and another one due tomorrow, could not afford it so continue to pay the 620.  Spoke to agent from arrears support 2 weeks after agreed time and date, completed SFS, came  back saying voluntary surrender.  Suggestion of extended term, gone to underwriters for consideration and was to expect a reply within a week, nothing back and heading into 3rd week.


*PREFERRED REALISTIC OUTCOME?*

Obviously it is very important to me to keep my home.  I am suggesting that the remaining term on my loan be extended to the longest term possible to allow me to be able to make affordable payments and stay within our home.  There is currently approx. 7 years left on a 20 year mortgage.  I would hope that I will be in a position to return to work in the next while, I understand I am very welfare dependent but for the moment I need to deal with my current situation which is being a carer for my child until school becomes more full days.  I cannot rent out a room due to my child, if I was to sell there is nothing I could afford within a 20mile distance. 

Many thanks


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## Brendan Burgess (10 Sep 2018)

This is tough as it does seem that your mortgage is not sustainable. 

You can't afford the repayments on a mortgage of €120,000. 

Even if they reduce the rate to 2.4% and extend the term to 20 years, then the repayments would be €630 per month. 

This is a failure of public policy. 
1) There is no reason why a mortgage like this should not be put on interest only indefinitely.  You have positive equity. There is no risk to the lender. But the Central Bank does not allow this and the banks don't want it either. It makes no sense.

Interest only at 2.4% would be €240 a month which you could afford. So what if you are not paying down the capital? 

2) The second failure is that we should do what they do in the UK. The government will have to house you if you lose your house. It would be much cheaper for the government to pay your mortgage for you and treat it as a loan secured on the house.  

Joan Burton got rid of the Mortgage Interest Supplement which was crazy.  We now have a ridiculous  Mortgage to Rent which is no good to you as you are not in negative equity. 

3) The third failure is that we allow banks to charge 4.5% SVR on loans like this. 

*So what to do? *
1) Contact your local TDs and tell them how stupid our policy is.
2) Write to Governor Lane of the Central Bank and tell them how stupid our policy is. 
3) Continue paying the €620 you are paying.  
4) Write to Ulster Bank and tell them that this is enough to clear the mortgage over 20 years. 
5) Tell Ulster Bank you want to fix your mortgage rate for 2 years at 2.3% 
https://www.askaboutmoney.com/threa...e-to-2-3-fixed-for-two-years-all-ltvs.208751/

Not sure if they will allow you to fix it for two years as they consider it unsustainable. 

Check out this Key Post  
*What to do if you get a letter saying your mortgage is unsustainable*

Ulster Bank may begin legal action. 
Respond to every letter you get in writing. 
Continue paying your mortgage. 

It's very unlikely that the court will give them an order for possession. 
If they begin legal action, they will probably end up rescheduling your mortgage for you anyway.

Brendan


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## Polly 123 (10 Sep 2018)

Brendan, thank you for taking the time to reply.  You have summed up exactly how I see it, yes it not sustainable on paper but I can afford the 620 and have proven this by making these payments without any exception for 6 years, I just need the opportunity for this to be afforded to me.  I will write to them to see are they open to any of your suggestions,  I will update the post once I receive anything from them, thanks


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## Polly 123 (19 Sep 2018)

Just to give a quick update, got a letter saying I was 2 months in arrears so I contacted the arrears support to acknowledge letter to be told that the underwriters have refused to agree any further arrangements and my mortgage is deemed unsustainable, I should get written notification within a week and then  she said they were offering me 'help with selling my house' to ensure a quick sale, devastased to say the least.


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## Brendan Burgess (19 Sep 2018)

No need at all to be devastated. Annoyed and frustrated, yes, but not devastated.

Continue with the advice above of paying what you can, and respond to every letter you get from them and their solicitors.

You will not lose your house.

Brendan


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## newtothis (19 Sep 2018)

I would follow Brendan's advice. Write back to them saying that in the absence of them offering you an arrangement you will continue to make payments at the same rate; that this covers all of the interest and some capital; you will increase the amounts as and when you can afford it and that you have every intension of paying off the complete amount over time. It is inconceivable any court would order a repossession in these circumstances. Any further letters from them along the same lines, just repeat. If they start harassing you, they are only digging a deeper hole for themselves: just make sure you have all interactions documented so you can present your case if it comes to it. You are not alone. Best of luck!


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## Brendan Burgess (19 Sep 2018)

newtothis said:


> Any further letters from them along the same lines, just repeat.





newtothis said:


> just make sure you have all interactions documented so you can present your case if it comes to it.



I didn't stress this enough.  Some people claim in court "I spoke to someone and they said xyz..." 

After every call, for example today's, write down the name of the person to whom you spoke, the date and the time. 

Show that you are proactively trying to resolve this. 

if it goes to court, the legal team for Ulster Bank will be embarrassed. 

Brendan


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## Brendan Burgess (19 Sep 2018)

One more suggestion. Most people seem to believe that there is a tsunami of repossessions happening in every court in the country. That the banks are evicting people every day.

Ring your local court office and find out when the next repossession hearings are on. Go down and watch what happens. You will come away with a new lease of life. 

Brendan


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## newtothis (19 Sep 2018)

Brendan Burgess said:


> I didn't stress this enough.  Some people claim in court "I spoke to someone and they said xyz..."
> 
> After every call, for example today's, write down the name of the person to whom you spoke, the date and the time.



I would take this a stage further. If anything significant is said to you over the phone, note down the details as Brendan suggests. However, I'd go on to write to them stating what was said on the phone and stating that unless you hear from them to the contrary within 10 working days that you will take it that they agree this is a true and acurate record of the conversation.


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## Polly 123 (19 Sep 2018)

Many thanks for replies and advice, I will reply to their correspondence when I get it and follow advice above, I have been keeping record of all phone calls received and made together with peoples name and dates and times of calls since April. I really appreciate the glimmer of hope, I will update with any future developments


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## Brendan Burgess (19 Sep 2018)

Polly 123 said:


> I really appreciate the glimmer of hope,



It's not a glimmer.

Ulster does not have a glimmer of hope of repossessing your home. If you tried to lose your home, it would take some years. 

If you continue as you are, you will have it paid off before they get an order.

Brendan


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## rameire (20 Sep 2018)

you need to reduce the interest rate on your mortgage to help reduce the increase in debt.
if you dont want to fix on the 2.3% for 2 years they have a discounted variable rate of around 3.5% based on an ltv of 60%
you could even get a rate of 2.8% for 5 years on your ltv if you wanted to fix for a longer term.


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## rameire (20 Sep 2018)

also, their standard variable rate should be 4.3% not 4.5%


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## Bronte (20 Sep 2018)

newtothis said:


> I would take this a stage further. If anything significant is said to you over the phone, note down the details as Brendan suggests. However, I'd go on to write to them stating what was said on the phone and stating that unless you hear from them to the contrary within 10 working days that you will take it that they agree this is a true and acurate record of the conversation.



Don't agree that you have to go all formal there. That's just getting people's backs up.  The fact they don't reply and contradict is enough.


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## Sunny (20 Sep 2018)

100% with Brendan on this. Keep doing what you are doing. Keep engaging with them and keeping records. If they suggest something on the phone that you are not sure of, ask them to put it in writing. Do not commit to anything they suggest until you have had time to look into it and get advice. Most importantly, don't get stressed (easier said than done I know). You have done everything right up to now. If Ulster Bank want to bring this to court, then let them. It will take them years if ever for them to succeed based on your actions up to now. Best of luck.


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## newtothis (20 Sep 2018)

Bronte said:


> Don't agree that you have to go all formal there. That's just getting people's backs up.  The fact they don't reply and contradict is enough.



I hardly think one sentence at the end of a letter is "to go all formal". And no, it doesn't get people's backs up; it's just letting them know you are treating them with a formality and seriousness the communication deserves and that you won't be intimidated or pushed around. Trust me: banks don't spare the formality in their own communications to borrowers in these circumstances, so it's hardly starting it either. There's a very specific reason for doing it, which is to prevent them coming back at a later stage to say "we never said that". Just my opinion, of course.....


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## Brendan Burgess (20 Sep 2018)

newtothis said:


> There's a very specific reason for doing it, which is to prevent them coming back at a later stage to say "we never said that". Just my opinion, of course.....



And my opinion too. 

Brendan


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## Polly 123 (23 Jan 2019)

Just to give an update on what has happened over the last number of months.  

I wrote to the bank appealing their decision to classify my mortgage as unsustainable.  My first error was to send the letter prior to receiving notification from them in writing (I had just been notified by phone) but I did it hoping to try get the ball rolling and avoid the arrears continuing to rise and because I had not got anything in writing 2 weeks after the phonecall.  I rang them to ensure they received my appeal letter when I had heard nothing after 2 weeks  and was advised that they had received it but because they hadn't sent a letter to me I could not lodge an appeal until I received a letter, this took a month in total before I received the letter after the phonecall.  Following this I again lodged my appeal of their decision and the came back saying that if I made the payment to extend my mortgage that I would be putting myself under financial pressure despite the fact I had and still have been paying near enough the same amount for the last 6 years.  Their suggestion was I sell my home and downsize to a 2 bed house, repay the outstanding balance and purchase a 2 bedroom house somewhere else. 

After this they gave me the option of appealing their decision and complete an updated SFS for independent review.  This appeal was successful and the bank needed to try re-negotiate something with me, I suggested a partial writedown of capital, a reduced interest rate for a 5 year period, to park some of the loan and finally to spread the remaining mortgage over the longest term possible.  Another SFS later and I've have today received my letter saying they have agreed to extend my mortgage.  The offer of a reduced LTV interest rate was not on offer to me at this time.  It also states that this agreement does not cover arrears which are now over €5k and will remain on my account and will be expected to be paid down.

In short I am very happy to be allowed the option of staying in our home, I am thinking of this as a long term rent to own but at least I am paying something down that will benefit the family in the long run.  Its been a very stressful 9 months since my initial communication with them, the continuous letters and phonecalls you get from them despite working with them to find a solution were probably the most draining thing, each letter asking you to make contact immediately to discuss your account and when you ring you are told to ignore it that these are automated letters that are generated until a solution has been put in place, you get 2 to 4 of these letters most weeks.  On a plus side I was very lucky that the agent representing the bank over the last number of months was nothing only understanding, polite and helpful, the complete opposite of what you have to deal with on the phones so I would highly suggest if anyone is in a similar situation that you meet with them as opposed to filling out SFS etc over the phone.

Thank you all for your advice it was invaluable to me.


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## Brendan Burgess (24 Jan 2019)

Hi Polly

That is great news. Thanks for much for updating us. 

So what is the final agreement?  
What interest rate are you paying? 
What is the new term of the mortgage? 
What is  your monthly repayment? 

I understand fully why they leave the arrears on the record. I have seen court cases where the bank is trying to get an order for possession but the arrears are "only" €10k. The bank argues that they struck out the last court case two years earlier and capitalised €100k of arrears. But the judge dismisses the bank saying "That was your choice. The arrears are only €10k." 

It's a pity you can't get the 2.3% mortgage rate. But their website does say: 

"For all other customers, our 2 year fixed rate is available to customers who are borrowing with a maximum Loan to Income ratio of 3.5 (using Income as determined for the mortgage application process) and a maximum Loan to Value of 80%." 

Under this rule, you would need an income of  €34k. 

The bizarre thing about all this, is that if you owed €300k, you would probably qualify for Mortgage to Rent. But because you are in positive equity, you don't. 

Again, I would think you should tell your local TD about this. The government should be paying you Mortgage Interest Supplement to pay the mortgage interest.  They secure it as a loan on your property, so that when you do sell it, it is repaid.  You would not have had all that hassle. 

But well done for sticking it out.  Ulster Bank is very difficult to deal with. And you were lucky to get someone good in the end. 

Brendan


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## Bronte (24 Jan 2019)

Congratulations Polly.  Delighted for you. Maybe this is a sign of the banks having some heart after all.


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## Polly 123 (24 Jan 2019)

Thank you everyone, it is a great relief.

Brendan what they have done is extend my mortgage to a new term of 21 years.
The new repayments are €674.  This will leave a balance of €4570 at the end of the 21 years (which I think if i'm right is probably to do with the mortgage arrears.
The interest rate is standard variable of 4.3% and states that this will mean I will repay more interest in total but I'm ok with that, I intend to check out if there is a better rate available to me once everything that has been agreed is put in place but as you state about there are some pre conditions that means I cannot avail of these rates.
They specify that I do not need to do anything only adjust my direct debit amount for the new payment from February and if I do not contact them within the cooling off period of 20days that they take I accept the new conditions.

The only thing they do advise is to contact my life insurance company to see if these changes effect my current policy.  I've been paying that for about 13/ 14 years now at €82pm with cover for full mortgage paydown and lump sum to the value of approx €200k in event of death/ life changing condition.  I'm hoping that I can somehow hold onto this policy because I would now have a health condition that may load any new policy, I had looked into cheaper options but couldn't find anything similar for the same figure.


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## Brendan Burgess (24 Jan 2019)

Polly 123 said:


> I'm hoping that I can somehow hold onto this policy



The policy is separate from the mortgage. 

The sum assured won't change. However, it probably expires in 5 years and you would not be able to extend that. 

Don't worry about it until  it matures. At that stage, if UB requires a new policy, you can get a quote and tell them that it is prohibitive which means that you are not legally obliged to have one. UB might insist but then tell them you will pay the premium off the mortgage instead. But cross that bridge when you come to it. 

Likewise, don't worry about a balance of €4,570 in 21 years.  Lots will happen in the meantime. 

I am really surprised that you can't do anything about the 4.3% rate.  I campaign against the high mortgage rates in Ireland but use the statistics for new business which shows them at 3.3% or thereabouts.  But thousands are paying rates in excess of 4%.  

Brendan


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## Polly 123 (24 Jan 2019)

Thanks Brendan, I would be happy enough to keep the current policy going, so hopefully that will be possible.  I'm hoping that I can work on the interest rates, I had requested them while I was waiting for them to come back to me and there was an option of 2.9% that would have been available to me to fix for 5 years but that would have been on the original mortgage term.  I have all that here so I'm hoping I can use the information to try negotiate a more favourable interest rate but for now I'm just relieved to have something secure in the place for the foreseeable future.


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## newtothis (24 Jan 2019)

Polly 123 said:


> I'm just relieved to have something secure in the place for the foreseeable future.



Polly, that's brilliant - I'm so glad it's worked out for you!

Don't worry about either the policy or interest rate - they can be sorted out if needed down the line.


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## Polly 123 (24 Jan 2019)

Thank you newtothis I'm delighted and thank you for your advice with my original post.


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## Korbous (25 Jan 2019)

Hi Polly,

Glad to hear that you got gotten the term extension and based on your circumstances, I believe that you should accept this once you receive the official offer. In line with some of the other posts, its not worth worrying about the policies at this stage and wait until they mature.

After you have accepted the arrangement and it has been set up, I would look at addressing the arrears position. Based on the original post, you were up to date on an arrangement of 620pm and arrears only began due to the delay in getting an appropriate arrangement put in place.

If you continued to pay the 620pm then its worth writing a complaint in a few months time outlining that the arrears position of c.€5k was only incurred during a negotiation period and that if the new arrangement was backdated to the start of the negotiation period then the arrears position would be greatly reduced based on the below

(New Arrangement amount per month) - (Amount you paid per month) x No of Months

This would reduce your arrears amount to something like €674 - €620 X 8 months = €432.

At least the estimated amount of €432 is an amount that you can tackle over the next year or two and after that time your credit record will be restored. I wouldn't advise to leave arrears outstanding for the next 21 years as you will continue to be reminded of this issue when CCMA Arrears letters continue to be issued on a quarterly timeframe and it could restrict you in other ways in the future.

I understand that the last 8 months have been a battle and it might be best to take a break before having a go at the above buts it worth doing at some stage to give yourself final peace of mind.


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## Polly 123 (2 Feb 2019)

Korbous said:


> Hi Polly,
> 
> 
> If you continued to pay the 620pm then its worth writing a complaint in a few months time outlining that the arrears position of c.€5k was only incurred during a negotiation period and that if the new arrangement was backdated to the start of the negotiation period then the arrears position would be greatly reduced based on the below
> ...




Hi Korbous, thanks for the reply, yes I continued with the payment and was hoping it would be back-dated, I will follow up with them once the 1st new payment comes out this month, thanks for the advice


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