# Is this social welfare abuse?



## Framework

Hi,

Quick query(this isnt me just in case I get attacked)

A female with a young daughter, childs father no longer in the picture.
She is  now with another partner,engaged to be married in 2010.
She rents a house.

She is unemployd thus claiming dole,she also claims single parents allowance and rent allowance.

However her current partner is lving with her full time, he also works full time.
I am guessing she shouldnt be claiming single parents,but does it matter that her partner is not the childs father?

She also claims rent allowance on house she has rented but her partner lives there aswell, is this ok?

Thanks ,

F


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## annet

Yes its called fraud.... firstly she is in a relationship and this person lives in the house.  Entitlement is calculated for lone parent allowance on income - including that of the partner who is living full-time in the household.  Entitlement to Rent allowance is calculated on household income and if her partner has full-time employment has she declared this means as part of her means assessment?  If you have any concerns the DSFA has a control and fraud unit and suspected cases of fraud can be made anonymously.

*By email*: central.control@welfare.ie
*By phone*: (01) 704 3000, ask for Central Control Section or 
(071) 9672648,
*By Post*: Central Control Division, Shannon Lodge, Carrick-on-Shannon, Co Leitrim.


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## Framework

Ok,

I am undecided as to whether I should report this,I dont want to feel like a 'snitch'!! wat do people think?

On the other hand i am paying more levies/tax to pay for all this!!

What kind of punishments would their be if they investigated my report and found she was guilty of?
I persume it wouldnt be as serious as jail-time,I dont really want to separate a mother-daughter?

What made me act on this at all,was she was boasting to a friend of a friend that she wouldnt event be looking for work as her benefits were too good!!!


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## Romulan

Report it, it is stealing.

No ifs, buts or maybes.


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## MaryBe

Why question yourself?  It's fraud.  My taxes are too high as it is and perhaps if enough of these fraudsters are reported it may help reduce our debts.  Report it - no question


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## mathepac

Framework said:


> ... I dont want to feel like a 'snitch'!! wat do people think? ...


Report her its fraud.

She'll be asked to repay the money, but I think only from the date the fraud is established, so please don't delay.


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## Framework

ok ill report her i guess,have to say dont feel great about doing it,for some reason.

will a name and a rough address be enough? I dont have an exact adress like
Plus suspected abuses?
I am just going to send an annoymous letter


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## mathepac

Fraud section contact details - from the bottom of this page - http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Press/PressReleases/2009/Pages/pr210109.aspx

"*Reporting possible fraud* *The Central Control Section* of the Department of Social and Family Affairs accepts reports of possible fraud offered by members of the public in relation to the Department’s schemes.
 Reports are accepted by email, phone or in writing. All reports are dealt with in confidence. A member of the public may give details anonymously.
*Contact Details:*
 By email: central.control@welfare.ie
 By phone: (01) 704 3000, ask for Central Control Section,
 By Post: Central Control Division, Shannon Lodge, Carrick-on-Shannon, Co Leitrim."


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## Lilly2099

Its cases like this that are increasing all our taxes and levies! She needs to be reported.


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## cleverclogs7

Agree with above posts.BUT....whats happens if 5years down the line,marriage breaks up,no job and so on.she wouldnt be able to get back on any type of s.w payment.fraud would be on her file.what happens to child.just thinking about what would happen in the long run.the child would suffer.


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## Caveat

cleverclogs7 said:


> ...she wouldnt be able to get back on any type of s.w payment.fraud would be on her file.


 
Are you sure this would be the case? I wouldn't have thought so.

Oh and BTW, another +1 to reporting her.


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## Cheeus

cleverclogs7 said:


> Agree with above posts.BUT....whats happens if 5years down the line,marriage breaks up,no job and so on.she wouldnt be able to get back on any type of s.w payment.fraud would be on her file.what happens to child.just thinking about what would happen in the long run.the child would suffer.


 
You could say that about everyone defrauding the system, of course there is a consequence for fraud.

Report it.


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## MaryBe

cleverclogs7 said:


> Agree with above posts.BUT....whats happens if 5years down the line,marriage breaks up,no job and so on.she wouldnt be able to get back on any type of s.w payment.fraud would be on her file.what happens to child.just thinking about what would happen in the long run.the child would suffer.


 
Cleverclogs, are you suggesting that she should not be reported because she may not get back on Social Welfare in the future?  Do you not think that there should be consequences for actions.  Anyone who knowingly makes fraudulent claims should be prepared to pay the consequences.  It's about time we reported all such instances and then maybe we can start to get the country back into some order.


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## mathepac

cleverclogs7 said:


> ... BUT....whats happens if 5years down the line,marriage breaks up,no job and so on.she wouldnt be able to get back on any type of s.w payment...


I'm not sure if that's true, but even if it is true, it's entirely her responsibility and it wouldn't deter me. She is entirely responsible for the consequences of her fraudulent actions.


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## cleverclogs7

yup pretty sure,i read simular case and the person was denied payment because of .s.w fraud in the past.The mother is one thing,i would just feel sorry for the child involved.As he/she has no say in what the mother does.


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## cleverclogs7

MaryBM said:


> Cleverclogs, are you suggesting that she should not be reported because she may not get back on Social Welfare in the future? Do you not think that there should be consequences for actions. Anyone who knowingly makes fraudulent claims should be prepared to pay the consequences. It's about time we reported all such instances and then maybe we can start to get the country back into some order.


 
of course not.what the mother is doing is wrong.My main concern is the child.


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## MaryBe

cleverclogs7 said:


> of course not.what the mother is doing is wrong.My main concern is the child.


 
I really didn't think you were condoning this action.  This brings up another matter whereby children are one of the reasons unmarried/single mothers get 'free' housing.  I don't mean to generalise as I also realise there are genuine cases out there.  I do remember one time (many years ago) when my baby was in hospital -  I was in a room with two unmarried mothers who were discussing how to get bigger houses by having more babies...... at the time my concern was for my baby but it goes to show how children are being used to a means.  I see young children running around after 10pm in our town and nobody seems to be accountable.  What is our world coming to.


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## Framework

Hmm ok, I feel even worse now,if the child suffers I will feel very bad,I didnt realise she could lose all her entitlements...But unfortunately its too late as I have already posted the letter..All I gave was her name,rough address and suspected abuses..They probably wont even act on it but i feel ive done my bit for the Irish economy + society today!!! Or have  I???


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## jhegarty

Good for you.


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## MaryBe

Well done Framework.  Keep us updated on any progress.  Maybe it will help others.  Don't feel bad, feel pleased that you have done some good for us all.


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## aonfocaleile

Well done on reporting this case of defrauding the taxpayer. Check out the link below. Almost €500 million has been saved through DSFA investigating fraudulent claim. 

http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Press/PressReleases/2009/Pages/pr210109.aspx


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## cleverclogs7

MaryBM said:


> I really didn't think you were condoning this action. This brings up another matter whereby children are one of the reasons unmarried/single mothers get 'free' housing. I don't mean to generalise as I also realise there are genuine cases out there. I do remember one time (many years ago) when my baby was in hospital - I was in a room with two unmarried mothers who were discussing how to get bigger houses by having more babies...... at the time my concern was for my baby but it goes to show how children are being used to a means. I see young children running around after 10pm in our town and nobody seems to be accountable. What is our world coming to.


 
where in my post did you see me condoning this action.I said what she is doing is wrong.W R O N G.  it's the child i feel sorry for not her.yes there are genuine cases out there,and i am one of them.not proud of being a single mom and would give an arm and a leg to be able to work and have a nice house,husband and happy life.I make do with what i have a thank god everyday for my children and hope that sometime soon my circumstances change for the better.


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## Cheeus

I wouldn't feel bad framework. The woman is marrying and living with someone who is working. You did the right thing, well done.


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## sally

I agree with your actions framework, I too would report.  The people fraudently claiming social welfare should be reported, yes feel sorry for the children, but then the parents who are stealing (and lets be honest that's what they are doing) for the govt, taxpayers and the people who REALLY need it, i.e. the genuine "single" parent, we are running out of money, the govt can't afford, we can't afford it.  And the attitude pity the children, stinks, the theiving parents know exactly what they are doing, and if you think about it rent allowance at an average of 1k a month is 12k a year - if it's not genuine should be spent on other services such as health education. Fraudsters should face really strict penalties.  Sorry don't mean to sound mean, but pity the children!  Perhaps we should, welfare, single parents and rent allowance is meant for people who really need it and the sooner the social welfare puts in proper methods and names and shames these clowns the better.


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## thespecialon

I agree,good stuff for reporting..If the child suffers its her fault,definitely not yours....Anyone how know long they take to act on such reports?Or what the process would be? Like would they send someone out to her house etc.?

Just think if everybody reported people like this,and nearly eveyone knows someone abusing the system I reckon..we mightnt get anymore income levy increaes lol !!


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## mathepac

marybm said:


> well done framework...


+1


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## lady

MaryBM said:


> This brings up another matter whereby children are one of the reasons unmarried/single mothers get 'free' housing.


 
I asume by "free housing" you mean council housing!?  
Just for the record single mothers are not the only people who get council houses in fact alot of couples and married people also get housed by the council!!
Also single mothers are not the ONLY people who get rent allowance either. Plenty of single childless people and couples (married or co-habitating) get rent allowance. Stop generalising.

Framework don't feel bad for reporting her, it's these kind of people who give genuine people a bad name.


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## spreadsheet

MaryBM said:


> I was in a room with two unmarried mothers who were discussing how to get bigger houses by having more babies



On a semi-unrelated note. Is the term "unmarried mother" actually still used? Sounds a bit archaic. 

Also, I imagine the reason certain governments like our own provide additional benefits such as accommodation allowances for single parents is to promote the raising of children. So whats the problem?


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## MaryBe

Lady, I think if you read my posts I did say that 'I do not mean to generalise' and I KNOW many genuine cases and of course I would never point a finger at the genuine (give me a break here)  My last post referred to an instance where I overheard these 'free loaders' helping eachother understand how to get bigger houses.  

These posts refer to those who freeload NOT the genuine cases.


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## thespecialon

On a slightly separate note - how much would this person in questions actually be recieving in benefits -

1 Child? - Childrens allowance +
Single parent allowance? +
Dole +
Rent allowance? I know this can vary place to place but 
+ Any other benefits?

T


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## pd99

Are developers who have defaulted on loans up to 1 billion being brought before courts and prosecuted and have their homes taken away?. Or does the civil service just pick on the soft targets?


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## jhegarty

pd99 said:


> Are developers who have defaulted on loans up to 1 billion being brought before courts and prosecuted and have their homes taken away?. Or does the civil service just pick on the soft targets?




If someone stole your car would you feel the same ?

After all , a car is nothing compared to what the property developers/banks did.


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## sally

PD99 -the the developer/bank situation is for another thread and another discussion, what does that have to do with social welfare fraud?  Social welfare fraudsters are stealing from yours, and mine, and making a mockery out of hardworking (or people like cleverclogs7 who are in need of assistance from the state).  We all know that the bank and developer situation is a complete and utter mess, which needs to be addressed and people need to be held accountable, but the discussion is about people claiming benefits fraudently which is also a huge problem.  How are the civil servants picking on the soft option?  If you are claiming benefits (which many people are) that you are not entitled to, and you are found out how is that them picking on a soft option?  Have you ever heard of someone getting their benefits taking off them if they are legally entitled to them, your argument to this thread makes no sense.


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## purrfect

Well Done Framework. You deserve a reward! Don't you dare feel guilty for what you have done, remember you haven't done anything wrong. These fraudsters only have themsevles to blame (and ignore the think of children crap), all you are doing is rebalancing the karma.

If this person is willing to knowingly commit fraud, and the fact she has a child doesn't seem to deter her, then thats the fraudsters look out.


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## MrMan

Framework said:


> Hi,
> 
> Quick query(this isnt me just in case I get attacked)
> 
> A female with a young daughter, childs father no longer in the picture.
> She is now with another partner,engaged to be married in 2010.
> She rents a house.
> 
> She is unemployd thus claiming dole,she also claims single parents allowance and rent allowance.
> 
> However her current partner is lving with her full time, he also works full time.
> I am guessing she shouldnt be claiming single parents,but does it matter that her partner is not the childs father?
> 
> She also claims rent allowance on house she has rented but her partner lives there aswell, is this ok?
> 
> Thanks ,
> 
> F


 
I know everyone here wants to pat you on the back for what you have done, but are you sure of the facts in this case? 
She is a single parent because as you say the father is no longer around and the fact that she is engaged may mean very little at all. Are you sure that the fiance is living there full time thus contributing to the household? Getting engaged does not always lead to marriage and if she does become married then she will automatically lose some benefits anyway (I presume).


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## truthseeker

MrMan said:


> I know everyone here wants to pat you on the back for what you have done, but are you sure of the facts in this case?
> She is a single parent because as you say the father is no longer around and the fact that she is engaged may mean very little at all. Are you sure that the fiance is living there full time thus contributing to the household? Getting engaged does not always lead to marriage and if she does become married then she will automatically lose some benefits anyway (I presume).


 
I agree with this. The OP does not know the facts of the situation, its possible that she has declared her co-habiting status and income of her partner to SW.

However - if this is the case she will be investigated and lose nothing. Reporting someone for suspected fraud does not automatically mean they lose anything, it just means that they get investigated. And if all is in order then thats that.

Still a good thing to report her if you suspect something. Although I agree that your suspicions MAY be unwarranted, but thats something for SW to find out.


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## Framework

Well im 100% sure he has moved in with her and that he works full time..What he contributes to running the house,I have no idea,but if hes not contributing anything,it means hes living there rent free basically..
As regards disclosing his income to SW, I would be 90% certain that she hasnt,just going on things ive heard,but obvioulsy I cant be 100% sure in this regard..Anyhow its with SW now to investigate and I genuinely hope im wrong on this, I feel now like i have got involved in other peoples business where I shouldnt have!!


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## truthseeker

Framework said:


> Well im 100% sure he has moved in with her and that he works full time..What he contributes to running the house,I have no idea,but if hes not contributing anything,it means hes living there rent free basically..
> As regards disclosing his income to SW, I would be 90% certain that she hasnt,just going on things ive heard,but obvioulsy I cant be 100% sure in this regard..Anyhow its with SW now to investigate and I genuinely hope im wrong on this, I feel now like i have got involved in other peoples business where I shouldnt have!!


 
It doesnt matter if you are right or wrong, you are not telling SW that she is committing fraud, you are telling them you have a suspicion that she is committing fraud - a big difference.

No harm to be investigated if youre not doing anything wrong.


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## cleverclogs7

Framework said:


> Well im 100% sure he has moved in with her and that he works full time..What he contributes to running the house,I have no idea,but if hes not contributing anything,it means hes living there rent free basically..
> As regards disclosing his income to SW, I would be 90% certain that she hasnt,just going on things ive heard,but obvioulsy I cant be 100% sure in this regard..Anyhow its with SW now to investigate and I genuinely hope im wrong on this, I feel now like i have got involved in other peoples business where I shouldnt have!!





you did the correct thing.If you really felt you should'nt have put your nose into her business,then you wouldnt have made a post about it.
whats done is done so just let it be.


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## Caveat

> No harm to be investigated if youre not doing anything wrong.


 
Exactly.

Not always easy to find a happy medium between turning a blind eye and starting a witch hunt though. I think we all should be a little careful as a society regarding this kind of thing.


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## cleverclogs7

yup.think its about time this topic is closed.


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## MrMan

Caveat said:


> Exactly.
> 
> Not always easy to find a happy medium between turning a blind eye and starting a witch hunt though. I think we all should be a little careful as a society regarding this kind of thing.


 
It seems that this particular case was sparked by the op being irked by the apparent 'boasting' of the young lady in question. I would just hope that the greater good of protecting our taxes doesn't lead to people being wrongly accused and having to undergo any unwarranted stress. If you are 100% above board it does not mean that you will enjoy the process of having your circumstances probed.


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## ericsson

I dont think there is any harm in keeping this topic opened. I have just come across it and having been in a similar situation to the OP I have been debating whether or not to report a similar situation in which a 'single' mother whom is known to me is living with her three kids and their father. Neither mother or father work and the father is not registered as the kids father as 'the welfare would investigate if he was father to all three kids'! Thanks to the OP I have now got the strength and thanks to other posters I now know where to report what can only be described as fraud. I am sick of driving past their house on my way to work to see their blinds closed while I am forced to get up early every morning to pay my bills, mortgage etc to support my family or to see this so called 'single mother' driving around to the post office in her flash car to collect her 'wages'! I agree at rent allowance is there for many genuine reasons however it is this abuse of the system that has led to our taxes being sky high. Also there are many genuine single mothers in need of this help who could, im sure, do with more assistance whilst these 'scroungers' are feeding off state money which could be put to so much more use.


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## sally

I would agree with ericsson, I too see no harm in keeping this thread open, the govt needs to reduce social welfare spending dramatically, they don't have the resources to investigate every social welfare claimant, however, as another poster as already pointed out the govt has saved a lot of money already by people reporting social welfare fraud and it has given ericsson the courage and information to report another fraud, which will ultimately save some more money, if everyone reported social welfare fraud (or suspected fraud) then people may be less likely to try to defraud the system themselves.  

Cleverclogs7, your post declaring (sorry don't know how to use quotes) that it was about time to close this thread got me curious, and after reading your posts I am wondering what your status is?  In some posts you state you are a single mum without a partner, in others you have a partner but he lives with your parents, he’s your ex partner and gay in another  - how does that happen/work? You have been reported once for suspected welfare fraud, why?  You have been on the housing list for nine years, however, on the 25/12/08 (Christmas day!) you replied to a thread  about Prague, that you had lived there for 5 years and had just moved home from Ireland a few months ago - your exact words!!!.  So how exactly are you were you able to be on the council housing list for 9 years when you were out of the country for 5 off them???

 Things aren’t adding up here!  Either you are a compulsive, liar, a Walter Mitty type OR you are a social welfare fraudster.


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## thespecialon

cleverclogs7 said:


> [/color]
> 
> 
> you did the correct thing.If you really felt you should'nt have put your nose into her business,then you wouldnt have made a post about it.
> whats done is done so just let it be.




To be fair to OP, his/her post was only asking if it was abuse..And he/she has every right to ask this question as his/her taxes are paying for their benefits....


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## thespecialon

cleverclogs7 said:


> yup.think its about time this topic is closed.




Yes and I agree this thread should be kept open...We already have 2 people who have reported suspected abuses because of this thread...If more people do this and the claims are indeed fradulant we could save millions in welfare and pay for other vital services..Obviously some genuine people will end up being investiagated but I feel if you are receiving welfare beneifts it should come with the territority that you can be investigated....I know if i was receiving benefits I would expect to be investigated and would have no problem with this


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## aquaceri

TBH this drives me absolutley nuts...it angers me more than anything else. I used to be on lone parents but gave it up when i returned to work. I now work full time, I have two children. I get up at 5.30 in the morning dragging my kids out of bed at 6am to be out the door and to the childminders for 7am. I dont drive so we have a twenty minute walk at this time to the childminder rain or shine, I get home from work at quarter to 5 in the evening and by the time I have collected kids and got home its almost 6pm then dinner, homework, cleaning, shopping, washing clothes etc I eventually get to sit down at about 9pm. I am also attending college every tuesday evening until 10pm...I very rarely get to take my kids to school or even meet their teachers, I am constantly rushing them around from A to B. At the end of the week when I finally get paid I have less than 100e left over for to do me until the next week. I have a mortgage that I am struggling with, I have bills up to my eyes and no help from anybody.....I am not whining about my situation I am comparing it to that of somebody like the girl this post is about. 

The get to spend time with their kids, have comfortable lives, dont have to drag their kids from bed at ridiculous hours, have a medical card, a roof over their head paid for by me and everybody else, and more money than i could wish for (in most cases)

I know of so many people who are doing this and it makes me sick. It also gives the genuine lone parents such a bad name.

I lived in a council estate for about 3 years as I had no choice, SOME and i have to say SOME not all of the neighbours where playing this game, even going as far as ringing vincent de paul at christmas and getting money to pay bills and pay for SANTA!  then they would fight with one another if one got the money from VDEP and one didnt! it was horrific!

all these women perfectly capable of going out to work but nobody bothering! When I couldnt stick unemployment anymore and returned to work when I got a job they all turned on me! bullying me and my family because i simply wanted better for me and my kids...it got so bad i couldnt leave the house i was so scared, i fell into depression and spent most days in work crying...I worked two jobs to get myself a mortgage because the council or the guards wouldnt help me and my children. 

I have netter "snitched" on any of them but I have been very tempted believe me! I would be too frightened to report these women. Some of them even ran businesses from their homes and were doing it for years while claiming to be sick!

WHAT ABOUT THE GENUINE PEOPLE WHO REALLY NEED THIS MONEY AND THESE HOUSES! ! ! ! 

but at the end of the day the goverment should clamp down and vet every case alot more than they do and maybe we wouldnt be so badly off as a country now! 

Excuse the rant this is just a topic very close to my heart


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## sally

Aquaceri,

Your post detailing your own experiences being a single mum, dependant on state benefits, and having to deal with social housing, benefits and a welfare dependant society is very powerful.  As a society we are we are quick to judge single mothers, but do we give enough kudos and appreciation for those single mothers who are out there, who are striving and doing a bloody good job of bringing up their kids without being a burden on society.  Fair play, keep striving, I know it's hard enough being a parent (financially, let alone the emotional side of things) with two of us, mr sally occasionally listens which helps!  I have to work nights in a call centre doing mind boggling boring questions and tasks, which I won't even bore you with,  just to make end meet.  Unlike these fraudsters, I and my hubby have to work each week, spending a large part of our (Taxable) income on childcare, and like you have little in the way of energy or money to spend on our kids, or lesuire time.  Not complaining about our life, we chose to have kids, we knew we might not have millions of cash to splash about, but we did'nt reckon on having our hard earned taxes, spent on mothers who abuse the sytem, pretending they are single parents (and if you are clever you know exactly who I mean!).  I hope to goodness I am never in the position to have to experince single parenthood, however, if I were, I hope to God I was as strong as 
Aquaceri, KUDOS.


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## MaryBe

aquaceri said:


> Excuse the rant this is just a topic very close to my heart


 
This is not a rant.  Your story is real and everyone working to make ends meet would (I imagine) be in full agreement.


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## lightswitch

"This is not a rant. Your story is real and everyone working to make ends meet would (I imagine) be in full agreement. "

Disagree with you there.  I pay a lot of tax and think the OP should get on with her own life and leave this person alone.  Exactly what is going to be achieved by her actions............absolutely nothing.  

Maybe the OP should take a closer look at the amount of money being claimed by their local Politicans and do something about that................... Oh no, that would take real guts.  

Link supplied just to put things into perspective.

[broken link removed]


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## mathepac

lightswitch said:


> ... Disagree with you there.  I pay a lot of tax and think the OP should get on with her own life and leave this person alone.  Exactly what is going to be achieved by her actions............absolutely nothing...


We all pay lots of tax. However, whether anything is achieved by OP correctly reporting suspected welfare abuse is up to the investigators and has nothing got to do with my tax-bill or anyone else's.


lightswitch said:


> ...  Maybe the OP should take a closer look at the amount of money being claimed by their local Politicans and do something about that................... Oh no, that would take real guts.
> 
> Link supplied just to put things into perspective.
> 
> [broken link removed]


This is disrespectful as well as being an off-topic rant IMO and I can't see a connection with the thread topic.


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## lightswitch

"We all pay lots of tax. However, whether anything is achieved by OP correctly reporting suspected welfare abuse is up to the investigators and has nothing got to do with my tax-bill or anyone else's."

My tax is being used to fund these investigations so it actually does have something to do with my tax bill.

"This is disrespectful as well as being an off-topic rant IMO and I can't see a connection with the thread topic. "

I was simply comparing one "claim" to another, not off topic.  Disrespectful to whom?  It was a link to the Irish Times.


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## Peeete

sally said:


> So how exactly are you were you able to be on the council housing list for 9 years when you were out of the country for 5 off them???
> 
> Things aren’t adding up here!  Either you are a compulsive, liar, a Walter Mitty type OR you are a social welfare fraudster.



I have had a glance through these posts also and everything doesn't add up as pointed out already. In August 2008 cleverclogs was on the housing list for 7 years and 11 months later (July 2009) this had increased to 9 years...... Is there a social welfare issue here?


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## mathepac

Peeete said:


> ... Is there a social welfare issue here?


Or simply someone who's no good at sums?


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## Peeete

mathepac said:


> Or simply someone who's no good at sums?



Could be........ but there are a lot of inconsitencies throughout.... i just added one more without reiterating the rest. Would sums affect partner points outlined by Sally?


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## Bronte

mathepac said:


> Or simply someone who's no good at sums?


 
Or someone not giving full details in order to not be identified, or asking questions for someone else.  I do that, it's easier to refer to oneself rather than saying my sister has a problem etc. 

In relation to the OP's original post, I don't understand people meddling in other people's affairs.


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## Peeete

Bronte said:


> In relation to the OP's original post, I don't understand people meddling in other people's affairs.



Bronte, I wouldn't agree with this statement at all. It is everyones business to be a responsible citizen. This goes from the highest levels right the way down. If you witness another crime e.g. a mugging, a murder, etc. should you also not meddle in this?


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## lff12

lady said:


> I asume by "free housing" you mean council housing!?
> Just for the record single mothers are not the only people who get council houses in fact alot of couples and married people also get housed by the council!!
> Also single mothers are not the ONLY people who get rent allowance either. Plenty of single childless people and couples (married or co-habitating) get rent allowance. Stop generalising.
> 
> Framework don't feel bad for reporting her, it's these kind of people who give genuine people a bad name.



Most of the people I know claiming rent subsidy are single adults (about 90% male) with no dependents.  Or at least no dependents they are contributing anything towards.

Lone parents are in a kind of vicious circle as the stigma still attached to them in society and lack of affordable childcare makes it hard to afford the still obscene rents in Ireland because they find it difficult to get decently paid work that is sufficient to pay for childcare services AND rents.  Those who come off welfare and try to make ends meet are punished hard for doing so by a system that really is effectively centred around a 2-parent-working family on about 25% more each at least.  Its not uncommon to find working lone parents who are actually worse off that a lot of welfare dependent ones.

I am not condoning blatant fraud but there is a big gap, partially caused by well-intended increases in allowances for rents in particular that have created a baseline for market rents to start at.  This hurts people who pay their own way, including lone parents, even more.

That said, its hardly a good example for a child to be brought up in a household where fraud is practiced out on a day-to-day basis.  But difficult really in the context of a society where a lot of other peopls incomes are in freefall also.


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## Bronte

Peeete said:


> Bronte, I wouldn't agree with this statement at all. It is everyones business to be a responsible citizen.


  Oh well, I think I should have been a developer, banker, planner or politician, than I would have been a much more responsible citizen.


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## Caveat

Bronte said:


> Oh well, I think I should have been a developer, banker, planner or politician, than I would have been a much more responsible citizen.


 
Of course. Makes perfect sense.


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## purrfect

Peeete said:


> I have had a glance through these posts also and everything doesn't add up as pointed out already. In August 2008 cleverclogs was on the housing list for 7 years and 11 months later (July 2009) this had increased to 9 years...... Is there a social welfare issue here?



I too checked out cleverclogs7, the posts do not add up at all. Her very first post goes on about her son, but later the son turns into a daughter, along with dates of being out the country really looks suspicious. I also note she's not one to be shy about replying when she feels wronged (see my posts about the cat in the garden and her angry replies), her silence on this subject is telling! (or she maybe just away for a few days sunning it up at our expense!)

Can you still be eligible to be on housing lists if your living outside the country? Why would you have your partner living with your parents, when you have a three bedroom house? At the very least shes playing a 'clever' dishonest game. Espiecally as she says she hasnt lived in ireland since 1993 and only moved back in 2008!!  

;-)

pitch forks at the ready !!! rofl.


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## Cayne

purrfect said:


> I too checked out cleverclogs7, the posts do not add up at all. Her very first post goes on about her son, but later the son turns into a daughter, along with dates of being out the country really looks suspicious. I also note she's not one to be shy about replying when she feels wronged (see my posts about the cat in the garden and her angry replies), her silence on this subject is telling! (or she maybe just away for a few days sunning it up at our expense!)
> 
> Can you still be eligible to be on housing lists if your living outside the country? Why would you have your partner living with your parents, when you have a three bedroom house? At the very least shes playing a 'clever' dishonest game. Espiecally as she says she hasnt lived in ireland since 1993 and only moved back in 2008!!
> 
> ;-)
> 
> pitch forks at the ready !!! rofl.


 
I wonder did she ever give back the money for replacement of the dress after she managed to clean it for a few quid. Major drama few months back!


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## sparkeee

report her if you must,but be honest with us,arent you just a bit jealous,isnt that the real reason you want to report her?


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## mat.s.w.

I see Framework posted practically the same question on boards.ie two days after posting on askaboutmoney.com.hmm


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## Framework

mat.s.w. said:


> I see Framework posted practically the same question on boards.ie two days after posting on askaboutmoney.com.hmm




Yes I did? So what?


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## jack2009

It is fraud!

However, I have to put my two cents in and say that the system is a sham by almost encouraging people not to work!  ie why would these people look for work when the benefits are so good?


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## MandaC

I was actually going to post in defence of Clever Clogs 07 because I thought people were sticking their oar in and she has made some good posts on AAM.  Some of the comments are a bit below the belt (not relevant here about cat in the garden or dress or whatever)

However, I did come across 2 posts that are relevant to the argument of social welfare anomolies and this particular thread. 

15/8/2008 - There is a post asking if Social Welfare help with Gas/ESB, etc in the case of single parent with 2 children.  Poster already gets rent allowance. 

16/8/2008 - Same poster states that she has booked a 5* Cabin on the Oscar Wilde Ferry to France.

As far as I know, Social Welfare helps out with bills in extreme needy cases, I dont think it is something you automatically qualify for.  I actually think it is unacceptable to book a 5* holiday and request help with bills on the same day.   In my opinion  it is irresponsible to head away on a top class holiday and expect SW to pay your utilities.  

Perhaps there is some reasonable explanation, which will clear things up?  

Regarding the original post and SW fraud, I would have no issue in  reporting it.  SW fraud hits all of us and if you seriously suspect it, report it.  End of.  The SW system is a system totally open to abuse.  This needs to stop.


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## lightswitch

Also worth noting that under the freedom of information act the accused will be entitled to know the details of the person who reported them.  This should deter most people for reporting for the wrong reasons.  

Personally as stated before I would never bother.  Would prefer to report those much further up the proverbial ladder. LS.


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## mathepac

lightswitch said:


> Also worth noting that under the freedom of information act the accused will be entitled to know the details of the person who reported them...


This is utter rubbish.


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## lightswitch

Afraid not.  If someone makes a complaint against you to a government body you are entitled to know who that complaint was made by.  A neighbour of mine was told by the council who complained about her dogs barking. Just glad it wasn't me!

Makes sense really, deters people from making malicious complaints and wasting departments time.


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## Jane Doe

lightswitch said:


> Afraid not. If someone makes a complaint against you to a government body you are entitled to know who that complaint was made by.


 Apparently not necessarily . I seem to remember there being such a situation and the name of the person was not released. They can refuse and then it is up to the Information Commissioner to decide



> A neighbour of mine was told by the council who complained about her dogs barking. Just glad it wasn't me!


Was she told through an FOI request or informally?


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## mathepac

As previously posted from the Department's website - "Reporting possible fraud: The Central Control Section of the Department of Social and Family Affairs accepts reports of possible fraud offered by members of the public ... *A member of the public may give details anonymously.*"

I fail to see the connection between barking dogs and possible social welfare fraud, but hopefully off-topic and inaccurate posts won't stop people taking appropriate action when they suspect fraud.


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## Jane Doe

mathepac said:


> ... *A member of the public may give details anonymously.*".


Correct just wondered what if they did give name would it be released under FOI


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## MaryBe

I would imagine if the person/s (who reported) was released by the Dept of Social Welfare, they would have no reportings!!!


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## Jane Doe

MaryBM said:


> I would imagine if the person/s (who reported) was released by the Dept of Social Welfare, they would have no reportings!!!


 True but a lot may not know about FOI. There is a right to request the info but as stated i think they can refuse and i think there was a case where the commissioner upheld the refusal


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## Demonique

Framework said:


> Ok,
> 
> I am undecided as to whether I should report this,I dont want to feel like a 'snitch'!! wat do people think?
> 
> On the other hand i am paying more levies/tax to pay for all this!!
> 
> What kind of punishments would their be if they investigated my report and found she was guilty of?
> I persume it wouldnt be as serious as jail-time,I dont really want to separate a mother-daughter?
> 
> What made me act on this at all,was she was boasting to a friend of a friend that she wouldnt event be looking for work as her benefits were too good!!!


 
She's a thief, no ifs or buts about it.

Who cares what penalties she'd receive, she'll have brought it on herself if she's caught.

Report her, I do so in a heartbeat.



cleverclogs7 said:


> Agree with above posts.BUT....whats happens if 5years down the line,marriage breaks up,no job and so on.she wouldnt be able to get back on any type of s.w payment.fraud would be on her file.what happens to child.just thinking about what would happen in the long run.the child would suffer.


 
It would be her fault for committing fraud in the first place, I wouldn't give a toss.



Framework said:


> Hmm ok, I feel even worse now,if the child suffers I will feel very bad,I didnt realise she could lose all her entitlements...But unfortunately its too late as I have already posted the letter..


 
Good for you! And it's not unfortunate.



MrMan said:


> I know everyone here wants to pat you on the back for what you have done, but are you sure of the facts in this case?
> She is a single parent because as you say the father is no longer around and the fact that she is engaged may mean very little at all. Are you sure that the fiance is living there full time thus contributing to the household? Getting engaged does not always lead to marriage and if she does become married then she will automatically lose some benefits anyway (I presume).


 
Better to be safe than sorry, if she's investigated and she's got nothing to hide she'll be fine. If she's caught out and is indeed cheating the system, then my heart bleeds for her.


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## MrMan

> Better to be safe than sorry, if she's investigated and she's got nothing to hide she'll be fine. If she's caught out and is indeed cheating the system, then my heart bleeds for her.



It may not be a problem for her if she is innoncent, but where would the reports stop? It should only be an issue if you have some sort of proof. If reporting became widespread with rumours and gossip getting out of hand we will eventually become seriously guarded about our lives for fear of having to go through an inspection. I just think that unless it is blatant then people should back off.


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## truthseeker

MrMan said:


> It may not be a problem for her if she is innoncent, but where would the reports stop? It should only be an issue if you have some sort of proof. If reporting became widespread with rumours and gossip getting out of hand we will eventually become seriously guarded about our lives for fear of having to go through an inspection. I just think that unless it is blatant then people should back off.


 
While I partially agree with this point, the OP said that this person was boasting about the situation and saying she wouldnt even consider looking for work as the benefits were too good.

I dont think that as a society we should be reporting people just because we see them living a certain lifestyle and we are making assumptions, but the reality is that if someone is boasting about their fraud they deserve to be reported.


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## mathepac

MrMan said:


> ... It should only be an issue if you have some sort of proof ...


I disagree. Proof is something that doesn't exist outside of mathematics (notwithstanding a verdict of "Not Proven" possible in Scottish courts), and only an investigation by suitably qualified / authorised professionals can gather the evidence needed to substantiate a charge of fraud in court.

Therefore, Séan & Sheila Citizen can and should only make a report when reasonable suspicions arise (like "boasting" and a live-in partner as OP observed).


----------



## Bronte

mathepac said:


> only an investigation by suitably qualified / authorised professionals can gather the evidence needed to substantiate a charge of fraud in court.
> 
> .


 
Some of these 'qualified' professionals ie civil servants can make life decidedly uncomfortable if not unliveable if they have half a mind to.  We only had a case in the papers in the last couple of weeks.  

I know a couple of stories myself where the person was doing nothing wrong and had a terrible time dealing with social welfare.


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## mat.s.w.

Charlie O Connor Speaking at the joint commitee of social welfare 10-june-2009.       I am interested in the reference in the excellent presentation to the number of      reports of suspected fraud from members of the public. The figures are incredible - an increase of over 700%. It was pointed out in the presentation - I presume accurately - that a significant number of those reports were found to have no basis. Is there any way the Department can give the public a message about this kind of busybody activity? I presume the number of reports is so high because people want to wind up neighbours or are upset about progress neighbours are making. Have the Department or other agencies a view on how this can be better controlled? I am sure much staff time and resources are wasted on checking these spurious reports


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## MrMan

truthseeker said:


> While I partially agree with this point, the OP said that this person was boasting about the situation and saying she wouldnt even consider looking for work as the benefits were too good.
> 
> I dont think that as a society we should be reporting people just because we see them living a certain lifestyle and we are making assumptions, but the reality is that if someone is boasting about their fraud they deserve to be reported.


 
I don't think people need turn a blind eye, but one persons 'boasting' may be taken out of context. Presumably the OP was not in direct conversation and was just eaves dropping, so the person doing the boasting may have just been doing what alot of Irish people tend to do which is making light of an issue.


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## Jane Doe

Bronte said:


> We only had a case in the papers in the last couple of weeks.


  link?



> I know a couple of stories myself where the person was doing nothing wrong and had a terrible time dealing with social welfare.


welfare can be bullies too and can be dealt with by complaining to Ombudsman. I would not take any abuse  from them.

As regards the FOI Act i now have learned from a reliable source that yes a person can request such information but welfare can refuse it under sections 21, 23 and 26. The person could then appeal it to the information commissioner.


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## allthedoyles

mat.s.w. said:


> Charlie O Connor Speaking at the joint commitee of social welfare 10-june-2009. I am interested in the reference in the excellent presentation to the number of reports of suspected fraud from members of the public. The figures are incredible - an increase of over 700%. It was pointed out in the presentation - I presume accurately - that a significant number of those reports were found to have no basis. Is there any way the Department can give the public a message about this kind of busybody activity? I presume the number of reports is so high because people want to wind up neighbours or are upset about progress neighbours are making. Have the Department or other agencies a view on how this can be better controlled? I am sure much staff time and resources are wasted on checking these spurious reports


 
What good is the FOI if your neighbour sends in an anonomyous letter to SW.

Where is all this going to end . 


If you suspect your neighbour has no dog licence for dog , should you report.
If you suspect your neighours car tax is out of date , should you report.
If you suspect your neighbour have no tv licence , should you report.
If your neighbour is driving on L plates , should you report
If your neighbour has Sky Movies ' for free , should you report
So if your neighbour is 'boasting ' does it justify reporting .

ps. I have never drawn SW in my lifetime , so far and dont be-grudge my neighbours either.


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## mathepac

allthedoyles said:


> What good is the FOI if your neighbour sends in an anonomyous letter to SW ...


Yet another potential Mastermind finalist 


allthedoyles said:


> ...
> Where is all this going to end .
> 
> 
> If you suspect your neighbour has no dog licence for dog , should you report.
> If you suspect your neighours car tax is out of date , should you report.
> If you suspect your neighbour have no tv licence , should you report.
> If your neighbour is driving on L plates , should you report
> If your neighbour has Sky Movies ' for free , should you report
> So if your neighbour is 'boasting ' does it justify reporting ...


I dunno, but this IMHO is a rant, off-topic and irrelevant.


allthedoyles said:


> ... ps. I have never drawn SW in my lifetime , so far and dont be-grudge my neighbours either.


Fair play to you, and no-one else seems to begrudge people their just entitlements either. The thread topic is a question posed by OP about a specific set of circumstances, apparently "social welfare abuse" or fraud which is a criminal matter - do you have an opinion on that?


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## MaryBe

+ 1 Mathepac.  Well said.


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## allthedoyles

mathepac said:


> The thread topic is a question posed by OP about a specific set of circumstances, apparently "social welfare abuse" or fraud which is a criminal matter - do you have an opinion on that?


 

no opinion on criminal matters .


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## el88s

no its not okay...you cannot claim 2 types of social welfare payments at the same time, ie..,single parents allowance and unemployment benefit and bet she is not telling about her partner living with her ! and they will act on the letter. dont feel bad,its her fault and she has put her child in the predicament, not you.


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## mathepac

allthedoyles said:


> no opinion on criminal matters .


Well I do.

Recently, have visited with family for father's day, I was driving home late at night. I spotted a small blue Dublin-registered car in front of me being driven in a manner I considered erratic on a narrow country road.

I slowed down, dropped well back and phoned ahead to the nearest Garda station (voice activated directory enquiries with a request to be put through, all hands-free and legal )  giving details of the car,  location and the problem as I saw it.

A couple of miles further on, a Garda car approached from the opposite direction, I flashed my lights and pointed after the blue car ahead of me. The Garda car did a U-turn, followed the blue car for a while, then turned on the flashers and stopped it. When I passed them, I got a wave from the Guards, my last contact with the situation.

The point of my post and the relevance to OP's dilemma? We all have common sense, we all have life-experience and observation skills, we all know enough to know when some situation isn't right and mostly we  know enough to listen to our consciences and do the right thing.


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## Bronte

It is possible I suffer from an irrational fear of civil servants/the state and this would not be specific to social welfare.  

Jane Doe - the recent case was a suicide and a revenue bailiff.  I don't blame the bailiff only doing his job, but the state/government body that sends people out need to realise they are dealing with human beings.  When you are confronted with the might of government it can be a very hard thing to deal with.  Another example that I personally know of is Gardai interfering in the running of a business (a long time ago).

Some of the posts here seem to be about everybody being a good citizen, but some of them smack of being busybodies and others begrudgery.  I cannot fathom out people interfering in other people's lives.  

In a broader context I thought Denis O' Brien made a good point recently about how a tribunal has blackened his name for years and has reached no conclusions and yet he is presumed not innocent but guilty without the benefit of a proper court hearing.  This is the state at it's worst.

In the OP's situation it's all based on hearsay for goodness sake.

I agree with allthedoyles point, where do you stop reporting people.  I know loads of people who have done the things he referred to.  One of my parents is forever paying the car tax late, should I report this !


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## truthseeker

Bronte said:


> I cannot fathom out people interfering in other people's lives.


 
Social welfare frauds are interfering in YOUR life, your taxes wouldnt be so high if the SW bill wasnt so high.

If my neighbour has no dog licence or no tv licence or has sky for free its not costing me anything. If my neighbour is fraudently claiming SW that my taxes fund its costing me something.


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## allthedoyles

Best look at some statistics:

1. Only around 10 % of the one million paye employees in Ireland file tax returns and claim their correct tax credits  annually . Do the Tax Office report the other 900,000 for failing to ask for P21 ?.

2. Less than 10 % of SW claims would be seen as suspect/fraudulent .

So who are the winners here .................the Taxpayer or the Irish Government aka Irish Taxpayer


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## MrMan

truthseeker said:


> Social welfare frauds are interfering in YOUR life, your taxes wouldnt be so high if the SW bill wasnt so high.
> 
> If my neighbour has no dog licence or no tv licence or has sky for free its not costing me anything. If my neighbour is fraudently claiming SW that my taxes fund its costing me something.



So would you pay cash for any jobs around the house? 
How many of our resident good citizens have ever asked 'best price for cash'? 

I don't believe just saying I pay cash its up to the tradesman to declare it constitutes doing it by the book before someone says it.


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## truthseeker

MrMan said:


> So would you pay cash for any jobs around the house?
> How many of our resident good citizens have ever asked 'best price for cash'?
> 
> I don't believe just saying I pay cash its up to the tradesman to declare it constitutes doing it by the book before someone says it.


 
No I wouldnt. Any jobs Ive ever had done around the house were done my me, a friend who didnt charge anyway, or a registered company who made out a VAT invoice.


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## JJ1982

To the OP, are you definite in your facts

. My friend has a council house. she was a single mother. She met a new guy and had a kid with him and he lives in teh house too. She contacted the council about this and informed them, her rent was raised, all above board. A nosy neighbough complained them, but obviously didnt know the facts as it was all above board.

Facts first, then report.


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## MrMan

truthseeker said:


> No I wouldnt. Any jobs Ive ever had done around the house were done my me, a friend who didnt charge anyway, or a registered company who made out a VAT invoice.


 
I would imagine you are in the minority on that one.


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## lightswitch

"Was she told through an FOI request or informally?"

She rang them up and told them that she was entitled to the information under the freedom of information act and she was duely given it.  She works in a fairly senior position in the HSE so is very well aware of her rights with regard to things like this.  

I will ask her next time I see her what her opinion if with regard to reporting SW fraud and the FOI.

Personally if I actually did have a problem with someone making claims (which I dont) I would have no issue with them knowing my name.  It is pure cowardice to report someone for something like this anonimously at any rate.  No wonder there is so much bogus reporting.

By the way mathpac, everytime someone disagrees with you it does not mean their post is an "off topic rant".


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## csirl

lightswitch said:


> Afraid not. If someone makes a complaint against you to a government body you are entitled to know who that complaint was made by. A neighbour of mine was told by the council who complained about her dogs barking. Just glad it wasn't me!
> 
> Makes sense really, deters people from making malicious complaints and wasting departments time.


 
This is incorrect.

If someone makes a complaint, you are entitled to be told the nature of the complaint, but you are never entitled to get the name of the person who made the complaint. The reason you are entitled to know the nature of the complaint is so that you have the chance to defend any allegations. FOI forbids the name of the complainer to be given out.

e.g. If Mr A complains to SW that Mr B is working and claiming dole, Mr B will be told that SW has received a complaint that he is working and claiming dole, but they will never reveal that it is Mr. A who made the complaint. 



> A neighbour of mine was told by the council who complained about her dogs barking.


 
If this is true, then the council official would be liable for disciplinary action, an investigation by the Ombudsman and possibly being sued for damages.


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## truthseeker

MrMan said:


> I would imagine you are in the minority on that one.


 
Perhaps, I abhor the culture of 'lets fiddle the taxman' for personal reasons.


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## Jane Doe

csirl said:


> . FOI forbids the name of the complainer to be given out.


 t can be requested, refused and appealed but unlikely to be give out





> If this is true, then the council official would be liable for disciplinary action, an investigation by the Ombudsman and possibly being sued for damages.


a lot of officials are not very well up on FOI, was told that by a very reliable source


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## thespecialon

To be honest the solution to all this is to send an annoymous letter, this way under FOI they have no way of giving persons name out,even if they wanted to!!!


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## Complainer

lff12 said:


> That said, its hardly a good example for a child to be brought up in a household where fraud is practiced out on a day-to-day basis.


Would you be equally concerned about children being brought up in households where tax evasion is actively encouraged by seeking 'price for cash' quotations for building jobs?


----------



## purrfect

sally said:


> Cleverclogs7, your post declaring (sorry don't know how to use quotes) that it was about time to close this thread got me curious, and after reading your posts I am wondering what your status is?  In some posts you state you are a single mum without a partner, in others you have a partner but he lives with your parents, he’s your ex partner and gay in another  - how does that happen/work? You have been reported once for suspected welfare fraud, why?  You have been on the housing list for nine years, however, on the 25/12/08 (Christmas day!) you replied to a thread  about Prague, that you had lived there for 5 years and had just moved home from Ireland a few months ago - your exact words!!!.  So how exactly are you were you able to be on the council housing list for 9 years when you were out of the country for 5 off them???
> 
> Things aren’t adding up here!  Either you are a compulsive, liar, a Walter Mitty type OR you are a social welfare fraudster.



Anyone find it interesting that Cleverclogs has not posted at all(on any forum!) since sally seems to have 'outed' her? (last post was same day as sallys - 31st July) for someone that was such a prolific poster (she was at more than 1 post per day average) up till then makes me almost certain sally was onto something! 

Maybe shes on holiday, but for some one who finds 'money doesn't fall into her lap' (but still manages to  save €300 a month) I don't think thats an option...besides she would have posted about it! 

Framework has anything changed with your neighbour? Any updates? Do you think the SW have actually followed up on your letter? 

I had a friend that reported there neighbour that was in similiar position, because I showed them this thread it gave them the confidence to do so, but all the fraudster did was hide the fellas car around the corner to show he wasn't living there, and to my knowledge nothing has changed so far (and yes my friend was sure of there facts before reporting). 

Makes me think that the SW are not really caring to investigate these things properly, hence SW claim that such a high rate of reports are unfounded. 

It makes me almost want to give up my job and join them if its that easy! Whats the point in working your ass off if you can live it up doing feck all ?

Complainer, Tax avoidance is not the same as false claiming and is never treated as harshly either by society or by the courts.

;-)


----------



## Complainer

purrfect said:


> Complainer, Tax avoidance is not the same as false claiming and is never treated as harshly either by society or by the courts.


'price for cash' isn't tax avoidance, it is encouraging/facilitating/supporting tax evasion.


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## MandaC

Complainer said:


> 'price for cash' isn't tax avoidance, it is encouraging/facilitating/supporting tax evasion.



And the point to remember that whilst tax avoidance is totally legal, tax evasion is not.


----------

