# What should we as a nation do to move forward?



## dejected (20 Nov 2010)

What steps should we take to move forward as individuals and as a nation? There is an urgent need for political reform and change of government. As an individual I am making every effort to buy Irish goods.. what else can the ordinary man or woman in the street do to make a difference to the economic situation we are in?


----------



## Teatime (20 Nov 2010)

Everyone should get fit and healthy and if possible stay that way. All problems are easier when you feel healthy (and can you can avoid our worsening health services).


----------



## Silvera (20 Nov 2010)

Good point about buying Irish as much as possible!

On a larger scale, I believe we need to change the voting system to a complete (or partial) 'List System'... i.e. we vote for parties who can then pick who they want as ministers (e.g. a civilian economist as finance minister).


----------



## sustanon (21 Nov 2010)

Drop corporate tax to 6% teach the krauts who's boss. Drop corporate tax for indigenous Irish businesses to 5%, Pull the tallented ones that left the county home with a tax holiday for 2 years, provided they show that they made a positive contribution in their adopted country. Drop the taxes on capital equipment purchases for manufacturing industry so they can re-tool to compete with cheaper countries. Abolish the minimum wage, Everybody pays income tax. Make unemployment payments higher, but limited to 6 months.


----------



## Purple (21 Nov 2010)

sustanon said:


> Drop corporate tax to 6% teach the krauts who's boss. Drop corporate tax for indigenous Irish businesses to 5%, Pull the tallented ones that left the county home with a tax holiday for 2 years, provided they show that they made a positive contribution in their adopted country. Drop the taxes on capital equipment purchases for manufacturing industry so they can re-tool to compete with cheaper countries. Abolish the minimum wage, Everybody pays income tax. Make unemployment payments higher, but limited to 6 months.



Where do I vote for you?


----------



## Deiseblue (21 Nov 2010)

Purple said:


> Where do I vote for you?



At the next Utopian general election perhaps ?


----------



## sustanon (21 Nov 2010)

it's all workable, and it wasn't that long ago since there was no minimum wage, and everyone paid tax, I remember paying tax on 3.60 an hour, part time at Dunnes Stores in 1994. I'm living abroad making an impact in my local area, seccuring 120 jobs at our factory by making it compete with Chinese and Eastern European manufacturers. This is not hard, but for now there is NOTHING drawing me back to Ireland, even though I would love to be home with friends and family. as for Utopian general election?  well you need to make politics attract a better class of applicant. I'm with the elitists on this one, I want them earning more than me, I want them flying to meetings on jets, not stuck in dublin airport waiting on a ryanair flight, I want their bills paid so they can concentrate on their jobs, I want them better educated than me.....


----------



## Complainer (21 Nov 2010)

sustanon said:


> it's all workable, and it wasn't that long ago since there was no minimum wage, and everyone paid tax,
> .


Everyone pays tax today, whether it is income tax or VAT or other taxes.


----------



## sustanon (21 Nov 2010)

Complainer said:


> Everyone pays tax today, whether it is income tax or VAT or other taxes.



I understand and appreciate your point, I'm talking about PAYE income tax.


----------



## Complainer (21 Nov 2010)

sustanon said:


> I understand and appreciate your point, I'm talking about PAYE income tax.



Yes - I guessed that. I just wish people wouldn't try to continue to perpetuate the myth that people who are low-paid and indeed people on welfare don't make any financial contribution to running the country.


----------



## sustanon (21 Nov 2010)

no myth being perpetuated, the clock needs to be rolled back, that's all.


----------



## orka (21 Nov 2010)

Complainer said:


> I just wish people wouldn't try to continue to perpetuate the myth that people ... on welfare don't make any financial contribution to running the country.


They don't make any financial contribution to the country. If they receive €100 in welfare and spend it all including say €15 on VAT, they are still net takers - an €85 cost to the economy, not financial contributors.


----------



## allthedoyles (21 Nov 2010)

*What should we as a nation do to move forward?* 
We must accept that this weekend's series of events were the best possible outcome to a serious situation we got ourselves into .

The EU know it was warranted . - The Irish Government know it was warranted .

Ireland must accept that a bailout was warranted , and to move forward we must now deal with the aftermath .


----------



## Complainer (22 Nov 2010)

orka said:


> They don't make any financial contribution to the country. If they receive €100 in welfare and spend it all including say €15 on VAT, they are still net takers - an €85 cost to the economy, not financial contributors.


Yes, here we go again - continuing to perpetuate the myths. Because clearly anyone on welfare has never worked in the past, and will never work in the future - right Orka?


----------



## Purple (22 Nov 2010)

Complainer said:


> Yes, here we go again - continuing to perpetuate the myths. Because clearly anyone on welfare has never worked in the past, and will never work in the future - right Orka?



They may well have contributed in the past but they aren't while they are on welfare. That doesn't mean that they are lesser people but the facts stand.


----------



## elcato (22 Nov 2010)

> *What should we as a nation do to move forward?*
> We must accept that this weekend's series of events were the best  possible outcome to a serious situation we got ourselves into .
> 
> The EU know it was warranted . - The Irish Government know it was warranted .
> ...


Well said.


----------



## Firefly (22 Nov 2010)

To get the state finances moving in the right direction, IMO, we need to rollback the benchmarking & increments year-by-year until we can achieve the 3% agreed limit of borrowing to GDP. This would work as follows: Rollback all of the 2010 increases in pay and pensions (whatever the guise (increments/bench marking) and assess the figures. Not enough? Roll back the 2009 increases and so on. A lot of work was done on these benchmarkings to ensure they were "fair" so it's only "fair" that they are rolled back in the same manner, to reflect the changing conditions in the private sector. Just like what some posters are complaining about upward-only rent reviews...does the same apply to benchmarking?


----------



## elcato (22 Nov 2010)

Buying Irish is a good start but I think people should also return deposits to Irish banks especially those who can afford to keep under the 100k guarantee. I know of course the usual ranters will throw their oar in here but I'll take the sand pit.


----------



## soy (22 Nov 2010)

I've said it before, but the single most important thing that we can do is to reform the political system. We need to get a better calibre of person into government and they need to be able to focus on national issues. 
If we get that, then we will see better legislation and better management of the country. I don't normally agree with Fintan O'Toole but some of his recent articles about political reform contain many good ideas.

The current system dooms us to gombeen councillers who are only interested in local issues and keeping their seats. Until this changes, we will never get out of the cycle of incompetenace and failure.


----------



## shnaek (22 Nov 2010)

soy said:


> i've said it before, but the single most important thing that we can do is to reform the political system. We need to get a better calibre of person into government and they need to be able to focus on national issues.
> If we get that, then we will see better legislation and better management of the country. I don't normally agree with fintan o'toole but some of his recent articles about political reform contain many good ideas.
> 
> The current system dooms us to gombeen councillers who are only interested in local issues and keeping their seats. Until this changes, we will never get out of the cycle of incompetenace and failure.



+1


----------



## majee (22 Nov 2010)

what kind of suggestions did he have soy? i think everyone i have discussed this with agrees that the political system is either broken or not fit for purpose (or both!). #1 how do you go anout changing a political system? and #2 what types of political systems are out there that would attract a better calibre of politician?
majee


----------



## lancemcken (22 Nov 2010)

I like sustanon outlook on things. Since I'm in the US, I don't have a grasp of the Ireland issues. BUT, there are financial & government issues all over the world. I think that most people don't have a clue what to do since it is so widespread. One problem I truly believe is that we KNOW too much now because of the media. Of course, all we know is what they tell us. AND the media loves a juicy story.


----------



## soy (22 Nov 2010)

majee said:


> what kind of suggestions did he have soy? i think everyone i have discussed this with agrees that the political system is either broken or not fit for purpose (or both!). #1 how do you go anout changing a political system? and #2 what types of political systems are out there that would attract a better calibre of politician?
> majee



The article was published in the Irish Times [broken link removed]
I would not agree with all of it, but there is a lot of sense in there. 

I am no expert on political systems, but maybe we need to look at how other smaller countries run their affairs to see if we can copy the best bits. The Scandanavian countries and places such as Switzerland seem to be successful


----------



## Purple (22 Nov 2010)

soy said:


> The article was published in the Irish Times [broken link removed]
> I would not agree with all of it, but there is a lot of sense in there.
> 
> I am no expert on political systems, but maybe we need to look at how other smaller countries run their affairs to see if we can copy the best bits. The Scandanavian countries and places such as Switzerland seem to be successful



Some of his 30 points are off the wall and in the Senate I'm against anything that gives the "Social partners" more of a say in how the country is run (though it's better than what's there now) but I agree with most of it.


----------



## Whiskey (23 Nov 2010)

As an individual, you can help the economic situation by working hard, being productive, and contributing to GNP.


----------



## mammyof2 (23 Nov 2010)

majee said:


> what kind of suggestions did he have soy? i think everyone i have discussed this with agrees that the political system is either broken or not fit for purpose (or both!). #1 how do you go anout changing a political system? and #2 what types of political systems are out there that would attract a better calibre of politician?
> majee



You change the political system for voting for a party/parties that commits to radical systemic change through prioritising the bringing forward of a Bill to the Oireachteas enacting that radical change.
You make sure there is a viable party that will commit to such change by putting pressure on whichever party which has, to date, demonstrated a willingness to consider radical change. My money is on FG in this context, although the proposals they have outlined in their 'New Republic' policy document don't go nearly far enough. I intend e-mailing all Fine Gael TDs with ideas on how this document could be made more radical. 
Labour have set out some ideas but, imo, they merely tinker round the edges of the current system. The rotten bargain at the heart of the client state remains intact.
Fintan O'Toole will be putting up on his website a list of 10 commitments he believes a new government should make to radically change the political system - they will provide an interesting starting point. 
At the end of the day, it is up to citizens to make clear to political parties exactly what it is that they are demanding. That HAS to include a willingness to give up the fringe benefits that people receive (or think they recieve) from the clientilist system in exchange for a genuinely transparent and honest system, where legislators are able to take decisions that may be locally unpopular in order to institute a coherent and equitable national framework.
FG also have some good ideas on public service reform (which, as it happens, would not necessarily be beneficial to me personally as a civil servant but which I think could result in a genuinely transformed public service which would be fit for purpose)


----------



## Purple (23 Nov 2010)

mammyof2 said:


> You change the political system for voting for a party/parties that commits to radical systemic change through prioritising the bringing forward of a Bill to the Oireachteas enacting that radical change.
> You make sure there is a viable party that will commit to such change by putting pressure on whichever party which has, to date, demonstrated a willingness to consider radical change. My money is on FG in this context, although the proposals they have outlined in their 'New Republic' policy document don't go nearly far enough. I intend e-mailing all Fine Gael TDs with ideas on how this document could be made more radical.
> Labour have set out some ideas but, imo, they merely tinker round the edges of the current system. The rotten bargain at the heart of the client state remains intact.
> Fintan O'Toole will be putting up on his website a list of 10 commitments he believes a new government should make to radically change the political system - they will provide an interesting starting point.
> ...



Good post. I agree.


----------



## Bronte (24 Nov 2010)

mammyof2 said:


> You change the political system for voting for a party/parties that commits to radical systemic change through prioritising the bringing forward of a Bill to the Oireachteas enacting that radical change.


 
I really wish that I could even believe that will happen.  But I'm a pessimist.


----------

