# How do you actually 'hand the keys back in'?



## LauraG (25 Sep 2011)

Hi all,

What is the best way to 'hand the keys back' to the bank? Sounds like a silly question but real! 

Is it ok to meet the bank and tell them you categorically cant pay the mortgage, you've lost your job and have no hope of getting work and plan to emigrate in the next few months (and possibily declaring bankrupt in time).

So you want them to start the processs of repossession asap before you have to leave the country so that you are not being chased all over the world for signitures/court appearances etc etc. 

Is that the same as 'handing the keys back' or do you physically have to leave the house to start the repossession process? How will the bank react to this? Will they start the process asap? Does it take a while for the process to begin in earnest? Or is all that too much info to give them in the first place triggering them to move against you? What is the best approach?

Also if it's a joint debt, do they have to get the permission off the other name on the mortgage (who you are seperated from), even if they have never contributed to the mortgage and are not earning or likely to earn anytime soon?

many thanks


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## truthseeker (25 Sep 2011)

Theres no such thing as 'handing the keys back' in this country. If the bank repossess the house they will sell it for whatever they can and then persue you for the outstanding amount you owe them.


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## Gekko (25 Sep 2011)

truthseeker said:


> Theres no such thing as 'handing the keys back' in this country


 
Based on the OP's post, there obviously is...

If someone can't pay and is emigrating for good, then what can the bank do?  They can't get blood from a stone.  It's time for a dose of realism in situations like this.


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## Guest105 (25 Sep 2011)

In the last recession in Britain during the 1990's people literally posted their keys through the bank's letterbox. I think that's where the expression 'handing the keys back' comes from.

LauraG - Good luck in your new life abroad


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## Gekko (25 Sep 2011)

I think it's more based on the US concept of jingle mail where because they've non recourse mortgages, you can literally hand the property back to the bank and that's effectively the end of the matter.

For people in Ireland who intend staying in Ireland, that option isn't really there but for someone in a hopeless situation who's emigrating with no intention of coming back, what are the bank going to do...send The A-Team after them?


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## Guest105 (25 Sep 2011)

Gekko said:


> what are the bank going to do...send The A-Team after them?


 
There isn't much the banks can do, there are currently 6000 people a month emigrating from Ireland, I am sure they are not all young fresh faced college graduates, many are probably in the OP's shoes fleeing negative equity, bank threatening letters and mass unemployment


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## ClaireM (26 Sep 2011)

I think the first step is to get proper legal advice. From the way you are mentioning handing in the keys and declaring bankruptcy it sounds lie you really don't understand the consequences.


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## terrysgirl33 (26 Sep 2011)

LauraG said:


> Also if it's a joint debt, do they have to get the permission off the other name on the mortgage (who you are seperated from), even if they have never contributed to the mortgage and are not earning or likely to earn anytime soon?
> 
> many thanks



AFAIK, the other person becomes liable for the whole debt.


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## Mpsox (26 Sep 2011)

cashier said:


> There isn't much the banks can do, there are currently 6000 people a month emigrating from Ireland, I am sure they are not all young fresh faced college graduates, many are probably in the OP's shoes fleeing negative equity, bank threatening letters and mass unemployment


 
They can register a charge against the mortgage holder which would affect the person were they to ever return to this country (and that can happen long term, I'm a returned emigrent)
They can pursue anyone who gave a personal guarantee against the mortgage (as the parents of many young borrowers did)

There are some other things that I can't answer but perhaps others on here could
Can the debt be sold by your bank to an overseas debt collection agency?
Would a bad debt record in one country affect your chances of getting citizenship in another (ag Aust/New Zealand/Canada?)


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## so-crates (26 Sep 2011)

terrysgirl33 said:


> AFAIK, the other person becomes liable for the whole debt.


Would agree with this, usually the phrase is I think that you are jointly and severally liable. So you cannot run away and expect your former partner to be left with only half the debt - you are both liable for the whole amount.


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## demoivre (26 Sep 2011)

truthseeker said:


> Theres no such thing as 'handing the keys back' in this country. If the bank repossess the house they will sell it for whatever they can and then persue you for the outstanding amount you owe them.



What, no banks are doing deals at the moment with anyone? The most rudimentary of checks would show you that this is not the case.


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## 44brendan (26 Sep 2011)

Legally both parties are jointly liable for the debt. Unfortunately as title is in joint names you will not be in a position to voluntarily give posession of the property to the Bank. From the perspective of the Bank they may well do a deal such as accepting a voluntary surrender of the property in full and final settlement of the debt in the circumstances as presented by you. However such a deal would require the full co-operation of the joint owners. 
You appear to be satisfied to grant posession of the property to the Bank. This will be of no great benefit to them if the joint owner refuses to co-operate. Is it possible for you to get the co-operation of the joint owner? Even if this doesn't happen you would be better off to approach the Bank in advance of yourr emigrating to appraise them of the position and your own willingness to co-operate. They tend to be pragmatic and may well do a deal with you in return for your co-operation in voluntatrily granting them a re-posession of your interest in the property.


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## Gekko (26 Sep 2011)

ClaireM said:


> I think the first step is to get proper legal advice. From the way you are mentioning handing in the keys and declaring bankruptcy it sounds lie you really don't understand the consequences.


 
Why should someone in that situation bother getting legal advice?

Lawyers cost money and if someone's in that situation, money is thin on the ground.  And what is a lawyer going to tell them?  That they're on the hook for the money.

If someone is leaving Ireland never to return, what can the bank do?


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## ClaireM (26 Sep 2011)

The OP hasn't said he is never coming back or where he is going. All very relevant if he is thinking of handing back the keys and possibly declaring bankruptcy.


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## wbbs (27 Sep 2011)

You can get free legal advice (short appointment admittedly but free!)  from most local Citizens Information offices.


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## hastalavista (27 Sep 2011)

LauraG said:


> Hi all,
> 
> What is the best way to 'hand the keys back' to the bank? Sounds like a silly question but real!
> 
> ...



Sorry to read this.
I would lay the cards on the table with the bank and take it from there.

I dont think I would just run and post the keys from the airport.

Having said that I would not hang around, maybe appoint someone with a limited power of attorney for signing stuff?
Is it joint ownership and joint debt or just joint debt.

The bank can get a judgement mortgage to sell the property regardless.

This will cost c 30k if done the hard way so no point in incurring that sort of extra.
Good luck.


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## LauraG (29 Sep 2011)

many thanks for all the replies.

The property is in joint names, hence the debt is too. The negative equity is @200K so adding another 30K 'the hard way' as you put it wont make much odds i'd say. However, I am more than willing to be co-operative with the bank, whether the other half will be or not, only time will tell. I will write a letter to my local mortgage department and also to the head office mortgage dept and requesting them to repossess the house including willingness to co-operate hoping for a speedy resolution. I wrote to the head office about 5 weeks ago explaining the situation (without mention of repossession) and I still haven't heard back from them,


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## Guest105 (29 Sep 2011)

LauraG said:


> I wrote to the head office about 5 weeks ago explaining the situation (without mention of repossession) and I still haven't heard back from them,


 
I guess they are rather busy


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## Steve Thatcher (3 Oct 2011)

Hello Laura, if you intend to leave the country then you need to deal with the property. It seems that you have a jointly owned property, but only you live in it. The responsibility for any shortfall on the mortgage and arrears would fall on both. ie you will both be liable for the whole. I take it your former partner is not interested and so you care little about the consequences for him.
For you the consequences will be that the property will either be repossesed or possession taken by the mortgagee. It may be sold at some point and any shortfall will falll on both of you. The debt could be sold on to a debt purchaser. That debt could be pursued against you where ever you go for up to twelve years by the original lender and I think the purchaser of that debt as well.
I can see nothing to stop you handing your keys in. Just be aware of the consequences.
If you intend to follow this through and you intend to move say to England it would be possible for you to declare bankruptcy. The fact that you have handed your keys in simply makes life easier for the Official receiver here. He will write to the bank in question noting his interest in the sale but ask them to inform him of the amount of the shortfall. That sum will be put in your bankrupty. You are clear at that point. Your ex partner is now liable for the amount, as indeed he always was. Hope that helps.


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## Ryandd (6 Oct 2011)

If you were to default on your mortgage because of you were deemed not to be in a position to repay due to having no employment and given the state of the country not likely to have a job for some while, does the banks mortgage indemnity gaurantee come in to play if you hand back the house at a loss to the banks?


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## Steve Thatcher (7 Oct 2011)

Ryandd said:


> If you were to default on your mortgage because of you were deemed not to be in a position to repay due to having no employment and given the state of the country not likely to have a job for some while, does the banks mortgage indemnity gaurantee come in to play if you hand back the house at a loss to the banks?


 
Hi we had MIG's over here in the UK. As far as I can recall, it was a policy taken out by the borrower and paid for by him/her for the benefit of the lender. The lender could then claim on the policy. I think one of the huge downsides was that the insurer could then come after the borrower for the money they had paid out. In effect a useless piece of insurance. They were discredited and I think discontinued.


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## wbbs (7 Oct 2011)

It is many years since indemnity bonds were in place on mortgages here, it was one of the first things to go when competition for mortgages took off.   It used to insure the lender for the amount above 80% borrowed.   As stated above the lender got paid by the insurance company if there was a sale at a loss but the customer who had paid the one off premium on the indemnity bond got chased by the insurance company.


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