# Confused -Barclays, Ulster Bank or HSBC??



## dec1892 (24 May 2011)

Hi all,

I’ve been following the deposit threads on here for awhile now as I’m getting more and more nervous with holding my savings in Ireland at the moment (currently have €45k in Nationwide UK and €5k in Ulster Bank).

I’m looking to transfer this cash outside of Ireland (probably to the UK (Northern Ireland) in a euro account – I’m not particularly bothered by which is offering the best interest rates), however I’m confused as to what is the difference in security between Ulster Bank in NI, HSBC in NI and Barlcays Wealth Management. I’d like peoples opinions here on AAM regarding which institution offers the best protection against the below two scenarios:


should Ireland leave the EU – would each bank leave my euro deposit as is and therefore not convert to the ‘punt nua’??
If the EU disbands (and therefore the euro currency is no more), again, which bank offers the best protection against this so that my euro savings wouldn’t convert to the ‘punt nua’??
 
I’ve phoned both Barlcays Wealth Management and Ulster Bank (in Newry) – both are sending me the application forms in the post to fill in and send back with certified ID, proof of address etc – I’m trying to make up my mind though as to which bank I should put my savings with. But the frustration is I don’t understand which one offers the best protection for my euro savings…….

I also have forms at home for Keytrade Lux, but havent done anything with these yet

Many thanks,

dec


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## bryanod (24 May 2011)

Opinion, as per every thread on this posted daily:

should Ireland leave the EU – would each bank leave my euro deposit as is and therefore not convert to the ‘punt nua’??
-Probably not.

If the EU disbands (and therefore the euro currency is no more), again, which bank offers the best protection against this so that my euro savings wouldn’t convert to the ‘punt nua’??
-None probably. 


Where are you planning on living that you won't have any money in Irish Currency if it did happen?


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## swervedriver (24 May 2011)

bryanod said:


> Where are you planning on living that you won't have any money in Irish Currency if it did happen?



Just wondering, why do you think this would be a problem? Would the State freeze offshore Euro accounts or stop Euros being convertered to new punts so that you wouldn't be able to get new punts on which to live? I think that would be conterproductive for the state as it would stop new, stronger currency coming into the country - but I could be wrong on that.

Also, would it be the case that opening an account with a bank that is regulated by a financial regulator other than our own mean that the funds in that account would not be subject to the regulations of the Irish financial regulator? I.e. if the Irish financial regulator decides that all Euros held by Irish people are now punts, he/she would then need need multi-lateral agreements with other Financial regulators so that funds held by people with Irish addresses are automatically converted into punts. I'm unfortunately not an expert, but I've never heard of such an outcome. Would be interested to know if there's any preceedent for it.

In Agentina, the State put a stop on accounts holding US dollars and essentially used these accounts to dig itself out of the hole it was in. However, I think these were accounts which were controlled by the Argentian financial regulator and not offshore accounts.


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## farmerette (25 May 2011)

swervedriver said:


> Just wondering, why do you think this would be a problem? Would the State freeze offshore Euro accounts or stop Euros being convertered to new punts so that you wouldn't be able to get new punts on which to live? I think that would be conterproductive for the state as it would stop new, stronger currency coming into the country - but I could be wrong on that.
> 
> Also, would it be the case that opening an account with a bank that is regulated by a financial regulator other than our own mean that the funds in that account would not be subject to the regulations of the Irish financial regulator? I.e. if the Irish financial regulator decides that all Euros held by Irish people are now punts, he/she would then need need multi-lateral agreements with other Financial regulators so that funds held by people with Irish addresses are automatically converted into punts. I'm unfortunately not an expert, but I've never heard of such an outcome. Would be interested to know if there's any preceedent for it.
> 
> In Agentina, the State put a stop on accounts holding US dollars and essentially used these accounts to dig itself out of the hole it was in. However, I think these were accounts which were controlled by the Argentian financial regulator and not offshore accounts.


 

ive allueded to this on other threads , in the event of a euro exit , thousands of foreign account holders would find themselves in a very advantageous possition in terms of purchasing power , overnight , they could potentially be twice as wealthy as the previous day due to the inevitabley  weaker adopted currency , someone who had 40 k stuffed away in a euro acount in germany could find themselves capable of buying a very nice house somewhere etc ,  this could cause a huge degree of resentment among the general popolouce due to what could be seen as a form of war profiteering and potentially result in a high degree of social breakdown , in light of this possibility , i wouldnt be surprised if those ( irish citizens ) trying to sneak back money into the country found themselves being forced to make a 1:1 exchange from euro to  the punt nua or whatever currency is adopted , i myself had a lot of money in northern ireland but ive brought a large amount of it back and stuck it in rabbo direct , i feel that while rabbo account would not be shielded from a currency change , in the event of a default , they would be much safer than some of the insolvent banks , ive also started buying more gold , have 15 k already and intend to buy another 20 k this week , i realise i might not make any money out of it but its a pretty good insurance policy IMO for the next year , what with greece on the brink of going to the wall and the powers that be seemingly at sixes and sevens as to what to do about it


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## Happy Girl (25 May 2011)

Farmerette that is a very well thought out post and made for very interesting reading. I must say I always enjoy reading your observations/suggestions. May I ask how you are purchasing your gold. Are you buying physical gold or gold certificates?


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## Godfather (25 May 2011)

Yes, how can I buy gold as well please? And please I don't want to phisically store it...


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## dec1892 (25 May 2011)

Hi Farmette, would you consider UB as one of these insolvent banks? Are they not 85% guaranteed by the UK Govt though?

Any opionion on which of UB, Barclays and HSBC in Northern Ireland are the better option in terms of security?


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## swervedriver (25 May 2011)

farmerette - thanks for your reply. I don't agree with some aspects of your argument and logic though.



farmerette said:


> ... this could cause a huge degree of resentment  among the general popolouce due to what could be seen as a form of war  profiteering and potentially result in a high degree of social breakdown  , in light of this possibility , i wouldnt be surprised if those (  irish citizens ) trying to sneak back money into the country found  themselves being forced to make a 1:1 exchange from euro to  the punt  nua or whatever currency is adopted



Regarding resentment and accusations of war profiteering, I think there is so much confusion as regards who had done what and who is to blame for what that social unrest specifically due to people having offshore accounts is likely to be not significant enough to lead to such a regime. When I think of any country where the currency is devalued, Argentina, Iceland, Ireland and so on, there has been no little unrest that I know of, of this sort, which could give rise to such a currency exchange regime. (Is there any actual preceedent for such a regime? Would be a very interesting case study if so.)

I think forcing people to make 1:1 exchanges of foreign currency would be involving ourselves in a currency war with the UK, US and Europe. Any multinationals in the country would probably reconsider their situation.

In the case of leaving the Euro and devaluing, I think the country would need foreign capital immediately. Such an exchange rate regime would deter foreign capital from coming here, including foreign direct investment.  

I suppose pocketing the difference between new punts and new euros (and possibly other currencies) for Irish residents with offshore accounts would be a revenue generating exercise for a Government. But I just think it would very complicated to introduce and essentially be self defeating for the state to do that. The state, I think, would view that it would be better to get money coming into the country rather than directly taking from a small capital flow.

That said, I could well be wrong and I'd welcome any counter-arguments.



> , i myself had a lot of money in northern ireland but ive brought a  large amount of it back and stuck it in rabbo direct , i feel that while  rabbo account would not be shielded from a currency change , in the  event of a default , they would be much safer than some of the insolvent  banks , ive also started buying more gold , have 15 k already and  intend to buy another 20 k this week , i realise i might not make any  money out of it but its a pretty good insurance policy IMO for the next  year , what with greece on the brink of going to the wall and the powers  that be seemingly at sixes and sevens as to what to do about it


I'm with Rabbo at the moment too (120K) but looking at diversifying the risk, with the difficulties in the Euro zone and right here at home. 

Gold is an interesting proposition, and like the other posters I'd be interested to hear your experiences with acquiring it. In the wake of the first round of QE in the states, gold rose in value while other commodities decreased. There is some talk of the US economy being in better shape in the wake of the soon to end (in June) QE2 but my guess is that the US stock exchanges will dip a lot without QE. So despite it being at record highs, I think there's ground for thinking gold will at least hold it's value.

Hope I haven't rambled too much!


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## farmerette (25 May 2011)

ive been buying gold through goldcore ( 01 6325010 ) , they have an office in fitzwilliam sqr in dublin , you can buy coins , i myself have 5 k in coins , you can buy gold bars , a bar is something like 30 k , if you dont like the idea of holding coins or bars in your own home , you can have them stored in a vault in switzerland , goldcore can organise all this for you but its a more expensive option , i myself have chosen the certificate option which operates through a company known as the perth mint , your gold is backed by the australian goverment , some say its not the same as owning it physically which is fair enough but personally speaking , i wouldnt feel comfortable storing gold in my own house , a few coins is ok but nothing more , with the perth mint , you can offload it very quickly and thier are no storage fees etc  

gold has seen bigger growth in the past ten years than our property boom ever did , it has risen in something like seven fold since around 2001 , its unlikely that anyone could make a fortune out of it at this late stage and i dont think anyone should view it in thie manner , with me , its  purely an insurance against the currency and economic crisis and  a hedge against inflation due to the  weakening of currency by goverments around the world , whether or not its in bubble territory is debatable , the level its risen this past decades suggests it is but with the american fed printing dollars like thier is no tommorrow and the eurozone limping from crisis to crisis , i cant see it slipping for a while yet , i bought coins at 950 euro per ounce last year , today they are worth something like 1080 per ounce , thats better than any bank will give you right now and you dont have to worry about it disapearing in the morning either


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## farmerette (25 May 2011)

dec1892 said:


> Hi Farmette, would you consider UB as one of these insolvent banks? Are they not 85% guaranteed by the UK Govt though?
> 
> Any opionion on which of UB, Barclays and HSBC in Northern Ireland are the better option in terms of security?


 
ulster bank should be safer than bank of ireland or AIB , thats for sure 

as for barclays , i know nothing about them , hsbc are pretty secure but they are horrible to deal with , appalling customer service , useless internet banking ,  thier managment fees are extortionate and thier branch service is non existent , you cant even ring them up and instead are forced to ring an outsourced centre in india 

IMO , oppening an account outside the state is a real pain , if it was me , id use a combination of rabbo direct and gold , if thier is a default , at least the money in rabbo wont be lost or withheld , you can also fall back on the fact that if thier is a default , gold will almost certainly jump in value  , gold reacts possitivley to bad news


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## monagt (25 May 2011)

Yes, but if gold falls back to 1100 it will be an even better buy.


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## farmerette (25 May 2011)

monagt said:


> Yes, but if gold falls back to 1100 it will be an even better buy.


 
you mean 1100 dollars ?


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## bryanod (25 May 2011)

farmerette said:


> you can also fall back on the fact that if thier is a default , gold will almost certainly jump in value , gold reacts possitivley to bad news


 

Eek I'd be very careful with that statement, Gold should be a safe-haven, but equally the end of QE2 and the immediate risk-off trading which would occur with a default means nothing could be safe. Throughout the first 9 months of 2008 Gold fell as did equtiies, and both have risen in tandem over the last 2 years, the traditional inverted-correlation has broken down at the moment, probably due to the pure amount of money and liquidity (specualtion) out there by the fed. 

Not to mention the Euro rapid-depreciation which could further hurt the nominal dollar price.

That said, theoretically at least, it "should" do as you say.


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## monagt (25 May 2011)

I read somewhere today (and can't find the article now) that Gold can retrace 20% easily and $1100 would be a great place to get in for the long haul!

Also; that Gold went nowhere for many years (I think 23 but not certain.

If I can find it I will post asap.

Found it 

"Gold doesn’t really correlate with anything and never has.  Historically, this has been a popular reason for owning gold and it’s a very good reason for owning gold.  But lately this has been overshadowed by all sorts of new reasons that people are inventing on the fly, many of which are momentum based.  I’m very cautious of gold at this particular moment of time.  There is no doubt that is overextended right now and there is no doubt that it is very expensive relative to most historical metrics.  It remains to be seen if these valuations will be justified by future metrics.

For as long as I can remember, I’ve been telling everybody that they need to own gold for one reason and one reason only: it’s different.  I just wish that it wasn’t such a difficult moment to initiate a new gold position.  It’s a much better time to decrease the weighting of gold your in portfolio.  A lot of people buying gold right now have never gone through one of gold’s epic corrections.

I see a couple of you old timers out there just chuckled knowingly.  All these gold newbies will be receiving a serious wake up call in the coming year.  If you don’t own gold and really want to, that’ll be a good time to swoop in.  A retest of the 1100ish level is probably in the cards.  In the gold market, 20% corrections are par-for-the-course.  Remember that this was an asset that went down for twenty years."

http://thedraconian.com/2010/08/05/the-trade-of-the-decade/

Its about "eggs in baskets" and choices and being extra careful (property was a 'no brainer on 2005')


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## dec1892 (25 May 2011)

To be honest, I'm not sure I want to go down the gold root - I'm a traditional "cash is king" sort of bloke.....although maybe this phrase is not so much true any more, certainly in Ireland at the moment!

I have an Ulster Bank account here in the republic already, however would an Ulster Bank account up north offer more protection should the Republic default? I would have thought the answer to this question would be yes


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## bemmi (26 May 2011)

I would also think the answer to that is yes.  Also you'd be covered by the UK bank guarantee, not the ROI one which is a plus.  As for Barclays, I can recommend them - account opening was slowish but fine and have found them very accessible and helpful.  They have offshore offerings, but I'd choose their UK location for your funds as then you'll be covered by the UK scheme (the offshore ones have a very low overall cap on total payout).


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## Kev (26 May 2011)

The AIB is based in Uk now and come under their jurdicion now, which I think is   €85,000 guarantee now.  Correct me if I am wrong please.


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## dec1892 (26 May 2011)

Bemmi, thanks for the feedback. I called barclays but they pushed me down the offshore a/c option (Barclays Wealth International) and they are sending me out forms - are these covered by the UK bank guarantee so or not?


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## bemmi (27 May 2011)

Barclays Wealth International is their "offshore" offering and is who I was meaning, but they offer you a choice of where to locate your accounts and one of those locations is the UK.  So if you chose that you're covered by the UK guarantee (it's on their website and I also recently confirmed that by phone).  

Their other offshore locations aren't covered by UK guarantee, they're covered by the guarantee of the jurisdiction they're in (think they're all up to £85K as well but apparently there's an overall cap on total payout which is pretty low considering the accounts they deal with...).  

Hope this helps!


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## bemmi (27 May 2011)

p.s. you can open euro, sterling or pretty much any other currency account you want with them (think euro, sterling, dollar are the initial options on forms etc.)
p.p.s. they're *very* pernickity about the exact wording on garda certification of passport copies etc., so get them to use the exact wording that Barclays say on their form, otherwise you'll have to re-certify or phone them up and hassle them into accepting it - save yourself the fight!


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## dec1892 (30 May 2011)

Cheers bemmi for the info


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## Emilan (6 Jun 2011)

Hi,
I've been following this thread with great interest. I too would like to diversify out of euro's. I've had a look at the Barclay's wealth management site. I would like a straightforward online account, where I can transfer money online myself. Does anyone have an iBank saver account and does it meet this criteria?

Secondly, re "Information Exchange - we pay interest on your savings gross." While I have every intention of paying any tax due, is going this route making me easy prey if Farmette's prediction's of foreign account targets come true?

Lastly, the charges for transferring in/out cash seem very high? Would they be as high if I went the Ulster bank route?

Any experience wold be very welcome.

Thanks 
Emilan


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## bemmi (9 Jun 2011)

I have iBank saver, and in my experience it is easy to use and transfer in to.  I'd call and negotiate charges when doing a transfer and see what they can do.  Can't compare to Ulster Bank as don't have an account there.


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## scabbers (15 Jun 2011)

bemmi said:


> I have iBank saver, and in my experience it is easy to use and transfer in to.  I'd call and negotiate charges when doing a transfer and see what they can do.  Can't compare to Ulster Bank as don't have an account there.




Bemmi, could you provide more info on the interest rate and charges for depositing/removing funds into/out of the ibank saver account?

I already have a Euro account with Barclays Bank, but it seems that this Ibank saver with Barclays Wealth is more attractive??

Cheers!


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