# Haughey's Virus



## Wilkes (20 Dec 2006)

Lots of us seem to like our leaders a little bit corrupt much like ourselves - is this the judgement of the silent majority, those who will turn out in droves to return the most corrupt party in the history of the State? Even today on the morning after of the publication the Lenihan Family whose dying father was robbed by Haughey cannot find it within themselves to call this man what he was, a thief, a cad and a liar.

That we afforded him a State funeral sums it up. Oh we stayed away in large numbers, but we kept our heads down nonetheless. Now we have to listen to brian-numbing double talk about him doing the State good as well. sure that's how Mafia Godfathers operate - throw around a few goodies to induce the weak minded towards you like Pablo Escobar etc. What many of us apparently fail to grasp or don't want to grasp is that Haughey was paid by us to make Govt decisions so we should not be surprised he got some right BUT that does not allow him the moral right to rob the State blind and instill a culture of sleaze where planning was up for grabs while our elderly and sick died in the under-funded institutions of a failing State.

This is truly the ugly side of being Irish. The hypocracy and instinct to stay silent and keep our heads down awful. The facts are that we deserved Haughey I'm afraid.


----------



## jasconius (20 Dec 2006)

Yes. You get who you vote for


----------



## Chamar (20 Dec 2006)

I couldn't agree with you more. And the defenders keep saying how 'everyone' was at it so we should be more understanding..........such an insult to the vast majority of people who were decent. I don't think we have changed much....they've just stopped passing money to each other.


----------



## Gone Fishin' (20 Dec 2006)

FF today is a fitting legacy to Charlie Haughey.

Corrupt, rotten and an insatiable appetite for power.


----------



## Purple (20 Dec 2006)

Wilkes said:


> Lots of us seem to like our leaders a little bit corrupt much like ourselves - is this the judgement of the silent majority, those who will turn out in droves to return the most corrupt party in the history of the State?


 I think that many people vote for them because they think that there is no credible alternative. 


Wilkes said:


> Even today on the morning after of the publication the Lenihan Family whose dying father was robbed by Haughey cannot find it within themselves to call this man what he was, a thief, a cad and a liar.


 Maybe they are better placed than you to make that decision.



Wilkes said:


> sure that's how Mafia Godfathers operate - throw around a few goodies to induce the weak minded towards you like Pablo Escobar etc.


I don’t think CJH had people killed or ran a criminal empire that ran drugs or protection rackets.


Wilkes said:


> What many of us apparently fail to grasp or don't want to grasp is that Haughey was paid by us to make Govt decisions so we should not be surprised he got some right BUT that does not allow him the moral right to rob the State blind and instill a culture of sleaze where planning was up for grabs while our elderly and sick died in the under-funded institutions of a failing State. .


 Agreed but I think that “robbing the state blind is a bit extreme. The beef export credit insurance fiasco and the Esat sale cost the state a lot more than the tax CJ didn’t pay.  



Wilkes said:


> This is truly the ugly side of being Irish. The hypocracy and instinct to stay silent and keep our heads down awful. The facts are that we deserved Haughey I'm afraid.


 I think that there is a general lack of detached analysis about Charlie Haughey; people either hate him or love him. This also is a sad indictment of the Irish people.


----------



## daltonr (20 Dec 2006)

You cannot punish a world leader any more than to damn his reputation, and leave him with a tarnished legacy. 
Indeed punishing them too much with prison, fines, or in same cases execution serves only to turn them into martyrs.
History will probably not be as kind to CJH as the ballot box was.

In the long run history will probably recognise him as a leader who did a little good, but who's ultimate effect on the country was to damage it's democracy. A wasted talent. Don't doubt for one second that he was intelligent and talented. He just happened to be weak as well, and that weakness corrupted him.

History will remember the corruption more than the talent, and he must have known that. For someone with an ego like his this would have been a terrible thing to have to face. You can take solace in the fact that he'll be punished far more in the long run than he could ever have been punished while alive, and by not punishing him while alive, there's no martyrdom to counter balance his tarnished legacy.

A greater question that needs to be asked is has the country learned any lessons?   Does acknowledging the damage to the democracy give us a blueprint for a stronger democracy, or is the same old system still ticking along?  History will judge us too.

-Rd


----------



## brodiebabe (20 Dec 2006)

Purple said:


> I don’t think CJH had people killed or ran a criminal empire that ran drugs or protection rackets.


 

No it was just guns that he ran.


----------



## Purple (20 Dec 2006)

brodiebabe said:


> No it was just guns that he ran.


I am no fan of the way CJ behaved but your comment ignores the detail of that issue and is an example of the simplistic view that I talked about above.


----------



## brodiebabe (20 Dec 2006)

Purple said:


> I am no fan of the way CJ behaved but your comment ignores the detail of that issue and is an example of the simplistic view that I talked about above.


 
No I just pointed out a fact about him, this I believe does not indicate whether I am a fan of his or not.  

You also can not say whether my views are simplistic or not, on this matter, as I did not express them in my statement.


----------



## daltonr (20 Dec 2006)

> No I just pointed out a fact about him, this I believe does not indicate whether I am a fan of his or not.


 
No great fan either, but if you believe he was involved in gun running then you're in the unfortunate position of having to accept that he was cleared of the charges.

You can still say you believe he was, that the verdict was wrong etc, but I don't think you can say that it is a *fact* that he was involved in gun running.

-Rd


----------



## jasconius (20 Dec 2006)

Disappointing as well that the current Taoiseach, coincidently another accountant who should know better, still sticks by his guns and maintains that history will judge the man.
This from a man who never pre-signed cheques on his own bank account as he didn't even have one during his time as Finance Minister!


----------



## daltonr (20 Dec 2006)

History will judge Ahern also.

-Rd


----------



## OhPinchy (20 Dec 2006)

€45 million in today’s terms should qualify as ‘robbing the state blind’ in any context. 

I’m amazed and satisfied that the tribunal produced such damning evidence. I know they couldn’t get the evidence linking more favours to these payments, but to prove he took such a staggeringly large amount of money from the Irish people is still a job well done on their behalf. 

Doing a few great things does not entitle you to do terrible things. To take this money at a time when the average joe soap was going through such hard times, is truly unforgiveable. I am totally against the stance that you should go easy on someone just because they are old or dead. To do so only serves to give incentive to others to go forth, commit some crimes, and then try every trick in the book to delay your punishment, cos sure, when you’re old or dead it’ll all be left alone.

Add in the cost of the delays he caused to the tribunal with his shameless delaying tactics and that €45 million figure keeps getting bigger. Under no circumstances should his legal costs be paid. Every last penny should be recouped. The Haughey family are not going to go hungry, and I don’t want them to, but I see no reason why they should be able to live more comfortably than the average citizen if the source of that comfort is money gained through his corruption.

Bertie’s signing of the blank cheques makes me believe that he is either grossly and recklessly, incompetent, or an accomplice. How anyone can continue to vote for FF knowing all of this is beyond me, yet large numbers of people will continue to do so. I know some of that is due to a lack of a viable alternative, but it really does make me question the morality of those who will continue to vote FF. 

For me, abuse of power is just not acceptable under any circumstances, and at least we now have some proof of just how much abuse of power Haughey engaged in.


----------



## daltonr (20 Dec 2006)

> he is either grossly and recklessly, incompetent, or an accomplice

or all of the above.  

-Rd


----------



## Sunny (20 Dec 2006)

OhPinchy said:


> €45 million in today’s terms should qualify as ‘robbing the state blind’ in any context.
> 
> I’m amazed and satisfied that the tribunal produced such damning evidence. I know they couldn’t get the evidence linking more favours to these payments, but to prove he took such a staggeringly large amount of money from the Irish people is still a job well done on their behalf.


 
At a cost of EUR 125m or whatever it was, I am not sure it was money well spent. They concluded that Haughey was crooked. Great stuff.  I was surprised.   Nobody pays back what they took, nobody goes to jail, a report full of wishey words. Only winners were the lawyers. What damning evidence did they produce after all that time and money. Everything they found was already in the public domain.


----------



## ubiquitous (20 Dec 2006)

I haven't read the report but from the discussion and comment that I have heard and read, I understand that there is nothing in the report that constitutes proof of anything, merely conclusions based on information that was, as the previous poster says, already in the public domain - for that reason it is widely acknowledged that the contents of the report cannot be used as evidence in a court of law.


----------



## daltonr (20 Dec 2006)

The money spent on tribunals has to be looked in the context of what was and still is being done to the country.

Apart from money taken directly in terms of bribes or "donations", all of which Joe Bloggs ended up paying for in terms of house prices etc.
There's also the shambles that is the Planning of Dublin in particular, but also other parts of the country.

Some tribunals are self financing, but even the ones that aren't have a value. I know it's terrible to say but a couple of hundred million is now a drop in the ocean. At least what went on is being exposed. For years journalists couldn't write about these things for fear of being sued.

Dublin will never recover from the way it was developed. It will always be a retarded city. If anyone does find a way to cure it it's going to cost many many times the cost of the Tribunals.

The only other example that I can think of that's comparable is what GM did in cities accross the US, when they bought the Tram companies and deliberately destroyed them so that they could replace them with GM Buses.

-Rd


----------



## OhPinchy (20 Dec 2006)

What we had before now was suspicion and rumour. What we have now is firm conclusions reached by a responsible state body. We now know he did what we always suspected he did.

Now I can say Charlie Haughey was a thief and stole massive amounts from the Irish people, and noone can sue me.


----------



## daltonr (20 Dec 2006)

> Now I can say Charlie Haughey was a thief and stole massive amounts from the Irish people, and noone can sue me.


 
I suppose the question some would ask is was it worth the cost so that you could say that, since it was already "known". I'd say yes, but I can see why some would disagree.

One things for sure, next time someone like CJH rises to power, get your kids into Law School, there's a windfall a comin'

-Rd


----------



## Glenbhoy (20 Dec 2006)

daltonr said:


> One things for sure, next time someone like CJH rises to power, get your kids into Law School, there's a windfall a comin'
> 
> -Rd


That would infer we are currently free of such people.


----------



## daltonr (20 Dec 2006)

Good Point.   
The Legal Gravy Train might have a few more miles of track ahead of it.

-Rd


----------



## ubiquitous (20 Dec 2006)

OhPinchy said:


> Now I can say Charlie Haughey was a thief and stole massive amounts from the Irish people, and noone can sue me.



This has been the position since the day CJH died, as libel or slander law does not apply in relation to statements about the deceased. The Moriarty Report does not change this.


----------



## daltonr (20 Dec 2006)

> This has been the position since the day CJH died, as libel or slander law does not apply in relation to statements about the deceased. The Moriarty Report does not change this.


 
Yeah but when the tribunals started nobody knew for sure that he'd ever die. 

-Rd


----------



## homeowner (20 Dec 2006)

Wilkes said:


> ... those who will turn out in droves to return the most corrupt party in the history of the State? Even today on the morning after of the publication the Lenihan Family whose dying father was robbed by Haughey cannot find it within themselves to call this man what he was, a thief, a cad and a liar.



The Lenihans are totally entwined with the haughy family socially and politically and who knows whatelse.  Yes it defies logic that they would not come out and condemn what he did, but you have no idea what is going on there.  Maybe they owe him a debt of gratitude for something he did for them that we dont know about.  My point is people do things for the strangest of reasons and just because you dont understand them doesnt mean they arent valid and certainly doesnt mean that they condone his actions.  I would love to hear the conversation in the Lenihan household behind closed doors.  I have no doubt they are decrying him from the rafters.

As for the rest of us voting FF in, look at the alternative.  My god if Inda K ever becomes taoiseach i think i'll leave the country.  He is appaling imo.  I would have absolutely no confidence in his ability to run the country at all.  Much as I dislike FF sometimes better the devil you know.  Its not as black and white as you are making it out.  And it doesnt mean we condone it, we need someone who is capable of running the country properly.  



Wilkes said:


> That we afforded him a State funeral sums it up.
> Oh we stayed away in large numbers, but we kept our heads down nonetheless.



"We" the people of ireland didnt afford him a state funeral.  His cronies in power did, surely our collective disgust was registered in the poor turnout on the day of his funeral.  What would you have us do?   There was an outcry on almost every radio program at the time of his death, people saying what a disgrace he was.  There were also people singing his praises.  Every newspaper had some sort of coverage of it and most of the ones I read were scathing about his legacy.  Tell me what you think the ordinary joe soap should have done to register his digust in a better way?  





Wilkes said:


> The hypocracy and instinct to stay silent and keep our heads down awful. The facts are that we deserved Haughey I'm afraid.


We must be remembering things differently.  There was total outcry and outrage in all aspects of the media to the haughy scandel.  Tell me what you have done to *not *keep your head down?  Posting this?  How is that different to all those people who phoned radio programs and wrote letters into the newspapera and kept away from his funeral?

It seems to me the target of your rage should be politicians - have you thought about writing to Bertie et all to express your thoughts instead of blaming the ordinary joe soaps who just want the country run in some sort of decent way that doesnt bankrupt us all.  Voting out FF 4 years ago, or whenever the last election was, would have been cutting of our noses to spite our face imo.


----------



## daltonr (20 Dec 2006)

> Voting out FF 4 years ago, or whenever the last election was, would have been cutting of our noses to spite our face imo.


 
The actual competence or incomepetence for running the country resides primarily in the permanent government the civil servants who are employed by the various departments.  These don't all get replaced when you elect a new party to government.

What changes is the level of accountability to the people.  Under Fianna Fail the Freedom of information act has been greatly reduced in it's scope, The Taoiseach spends far less time in the Dail answering questions than he should, and when he's there he doesn't answer questions anyway.
There appears to be little or no oversight or accountability when it comes to huge sums of money being squandered on various projects.  The one minister who was doing his job well has been banished to Europe.

The Haughey Legacy is a sence of entitlement to power at any price, with no regard for the wishes of the people, or what's best for the country.  it is a philosophy that goes to the root of Haughey's favourite son, Bertie Ahern.

When people say better the Fianna Fail Devil you know than the Fianna Gael Devil you don't, are you really thinking this through?   The country will broadly speaking continue running as is,  what "might" happen is a more open transparent and accountable government.

Yes, there might be some policy shifts you don't like, but they're not going to bankrupt the country overnight,  It's a lot harder to do that now than it was in the 70's and 80's.

I don't know if making Enda Kenny Taoiseach would necessarily mean you'd get more accountability or honesty.  What I do know is that leaving a Houghey-ite like Bertie Ahern in charge means you certainly won't.

Electing Fianna Fail again vindicates their actions to date.  Kicking them out givesthem a few yours to think again about what they need to get and hold power.

If anyone wonders how Bertie Ahern can manage remain in power despite mistakes, controversy etc,  look back at how Haughey clung to power under far worse circumstances, and ask yourself who was sitting at his knee, learning the game.

-Rd


----------



## Gone Fishin' (20 Dec 2006)

homeowner said:


> ....................
> 
> As for the rest of us voting FF in, look at the alternative.  My god if Inda K ever becomes taoiseach i think i'll leave the country.  He is appaling imo.  I would have absolutely no confidence in his ability to run the country at all...................................



No matter how bad he would be, how could he be better than the current incumbant?

You know, the guy who signed the blank cheques, who took money while Min for Finance, who lied when telling the nation that these gifts were loans, who even went so low as to pretend to cry , looking for sympathy, when caught out, who appoints all his cronies and friends to Public bodies, regardless of their ability, who has creamed millions from corrupt developers, for his beloved Party?

The most cunning, most devious of the lot, that's who we have. Our current incumbant is of the same breed as CJ and deserves to be treated similarily, with contempt. I detest the man and every thing he stands for.


----------



## sunrock (20 Dec 2006)

No matter that haughey may have siphoned off most  of the fund for brian lenihans operation ,young lenihan certainly knows what side his bread is buttered on and so...his nauseating defence of charlie and the then slease culture  to remain cosy with the party.Brian lenihan was like a living ghost the last few years of his life after his expensive operation in america..... the money was collected in a time of austerity .....and now joe soaps are denied operations in our long waiting list hospitals despite our billions.
Haughey basically ripped off the country with his charm and humour disguising the corruption and bribes he was involved in.
Why is it the public only ever find out about the corrupt politician after they have left the political scene?.....because big buisness,gov and media make sure that the facts are not reported at the time.....and a whole army of consultants and legal and finance and pr people  are helping/advising  the crooked parties when eventually are found out. these people are very quiet when the crooked politician is in power.
No doubt in futur ,some of our now important politician/buisnessman will be exposed.
I think there is no difference between our major political parties...even between kenny and ahern ..i suspect they all protect their own class. and their backers who invariably donate to all parties.


----------



## Glenbhoy (20 Dec 2006)

Gone Fishin' said:


> No matter how bad he would be, how could he be better than the current incumbant?


I think you mean worse??  At least I hope you do , I agree, but I also agree with Dalton here, the ministers by and large have little to do with running the country, they may have some broad ideas of where we should be going, but they'll get told these are unfeasable probably - time to buy that box set of Yes Minister I think.


----------



## Superman (20 Dec 2006)

At the time of Haughey's funeral, when the Joe Duffy show was taking calls about how great Haughey was, I considered ringing in and saying how when I grow up, I want to be just like Haughey.

I wonder if his admirers would applaud the sentiment?


----------



## Gone Fishin' (20 Dec 2006)

Glenbhoy said:


> I think you mean worse??  At least I hope you do , ................



I stand corrected!


----------



## Murt10 (21 Dec 2006)

ubiquitous said:


> I haven't read the report but from the discussion and comment that I have heard and read, I understand that there is nothing in the report that constitutes proof of anything, merely conclusions based on information that was, as the previous poster says, already in the public domain - for that reason it is widely acknowledged that the contents of the report cannot be used as evidence in a court of law.



Here's some bedtime reading for you.

http://www.moriarty-tribunal.ie/images/sitecontent_26.pdf


Murt


----------



## ClubMan (21 Dec 2006)

daltonr said:


> Yeah but when the tribunals started nobody knew for sure that he'd ever die.


I think most people knew sure he'd die. Eventually. Like us all.


----------



## JohnnyBoy (21 Dec 2006)

Good 2 see the posts by Gone Fishin' & daltonr,horrified by what homeowner posted.
A couple of points.It has to be the greatest myth that FF are somehow responsible for our monetary prosperity.Yes the reduction of corporation tax gave it a significant impetus,but the reason why it has continued for so long is because of ordinary people who are working their proverbials off not because of the vision of anyone within FF.
As for our prosperity,well, all that can be measured is not always worth measuring etc.If people feel they are prosperous getting up at 7am & getting home for 7pm & struggling to pay the mortgage,well then they need to see the wood from the trees.
However if people are truly happy with their lot & feel when they are on their deathbeds that they wont have existed/endured their life as opposed to living & enjoying it then vote for the status quo who make no mistake about have been in power for a full decade now & are therefore wholly responsible for the state of our health service/transport system/education etc.
Also even if I did approve of the present regime,it's good for democracy to have a change.In my mind,voting FF again is akin to voting Bush back in.


----------



## nelly (21 Dec 2006)

where is the C.A.B now, and why is it ok to leave his family with the benefit of his illgotten gains?


----------



## Glenbhoy (21 Dec 2006)

ClubMan said:


> I think most people knew sure he'd die. Eventually. Like us all.


Well, if you think death is living in south america with Adolf, Hoffa, Elvis and Lawlor, then, yeah, he's dead!!


----------



## edo (21 Dec 2006)

JohnnyBoy said:


> Good 2 see the posts by Gone Fishin' & daltonr,horrified by what homeowner posted.
> A couple of points.It has to be the greatest myth that FF are somehow responsible for our monetary prosperity.Yes the reduction of corporation tax gave it a significant impetus,but the reason why it has continued for so long is because of ordinary people who are working their proverbials off not because of the vision of anyone within FF.
> As for our prosperity,well, all that can be measured is not always worth measuring etc.If people feel they are prosperous getting up at 7am & getting home for 7pm & struggling to pay the mortgage,well then they need to see the wood from the trees.
> However if people are truly happy with their lot & feel when they are on their deathbeds that they wont have existed/endured their life as opposed to living & enjoying it then vote for the status quo who make no mistake about have been in power for a full decade now & are therefore wholly responsible for the state of our health service/transport system/education etc.
> Also even if I did approve of the present regime,it's good for democracy to have a change.In my mind,voting FF again is akin to voting Bush back in.



Totally agree with that. Our modern day myth that FF are responsible for the economic boom is one that needs to be exposed for the nonsense that it is. After J Lynch and CJH financially ran us into the ground in the late 70's and early 80's ,the IMF and EU to all intents and purposes took control of the economy and gave the gov , regardless of who was in office ,no choice as to the hard medicine that was required to get us back on track. The celtic tiger and export boom came about from far sighted decisons about attracting foreign investment and investing in education that started as early as the late 1940's - We benifited in the nineties as we got the perfect alignment of a straightened out economic policy,a booming US economy and lots and lots of EU structural funds.

As we are now part of a much larger EU economy and crucially , part of the Eurozone with its rules , even if we elected "god forbid" Sinn Fein , they really wouldn't have much choice in the matter when it comes to basic economic policy - unless they decided to get off the whole European project. As previous posters have accurately stated - the Gov of the day can only really give guildlines and vision - the civil service will quickly disabuse them of any cloud cookoo land stuff - whether this a good or a bad thing I dont know. 

Anyway I'll be voting (without any great degree of enthusiasm it must be said) for the Alternative FG /Lab coalition - purely because I've had it up to here with this current gov's arrogance, croneyism and corruption, wasteful attitude to taxpayers money and total lack of vision as to where we are going. We need a change , there is no possible way any potential alternative gov could be any worse than the current mob of eejits, incompetents and goombeen men currently driving around in state mercs at the moment.


----------



## sunrock (21 Dec 2006)

nelly said:


> where is the C.A.B now, and why is it ok to leave his family with the benefit of his illgotten gains?


 
Its due to a thing called   POWER.
And you are right, CAB  is nowhere to be seen.
That tribunal  fiasco , costs billions to tell us what everyone already knew.
Tribunals are really a public mind massaging measure,where the public gradually get to dissipate their outrage, between the crooks and the "coining it" legal horde as the revelations are drip fed to a shock proof public
I am sure if CAB moved in on haugheys inherited wealth,all the top movers and shakers would move in to stop it.....after all wasn`t tax eventually paid on his "income".
I`m sure that the criminal ,who had his houses in donegal seized,would offer to pay his tax......if he thought he could keep his houses.


----------



## nelly (21 Dec 2006)

until C.A.B takes back something - even the value of his wardrobe for feics sake, the whole exercise was/is a farce.


----------



## homeowner (21 Dec 2006)

JohnnyBoy said:


> Good 2 see the posts by Gone Fishin' & daltonr,horrified by what homeowner posted.
> A couple of points.It has to be the greatest myth that FF are somehow responsible for our monetary prosperity.Yes the reduction of corporation tax gave it a significant impetus,but the reason why it has continued for so long is because of ordinary people who are working their proverbials off not because of the vision of anyone within FF.
> As for our prosperity,well, all that can be measured is not always worth measuring etc.If people feel they are prosperous getting up at 7am & getting home for 7pm & struggling to pay the mortgage,well then they need to see the wood from the trees.
> However if people are truly happy with their lot & feel when they are on their deathbeds that they wont have existed/endured their life as opposed to living & enjoying it then vote for the status quo who make no mistake about have been in power for a full decade now & are therefore wholly responsible for the state of our health service/transport system/education etc.
> Also even if I did approve of the present regime,it's good for democracy to have a change.In my mind,voting FF again is akin to voting Bush back in.



What horrified you about my post?  

As for compairing FF to Bush - its madess to compare them.  One has been in government in a tiny country that barely registers on the world stage politically, the other has put the entire world at danger with his reckless foreign and evnironmental  policies and in the eyes of many should be tried for war crimes.  There is absolutely no comparison on any level.


----------



## Gone Fishin' (21 Dec 2006)

As others have pointed out, Ireland's success has been in spite of FF and not because of them. Ireland's "prosperity" is unhealthily based on inflated property prices and the building industry. Not a penny of the products sold in our new houses benefits our exports, for example, while those exports that do benefit our economy are falling.

Ireland needs to shake up it's exports and needs to stimulates real jobs, i.e. jobs that create wealth for the country. The building industry creates no wealth for Ireland, it is based on Credit, cheap money from Germany.

The 2006 census found 220,000 empty houses in Ireland. Is that a sign of a good economy? Healthy? Speculative? Greed? I don't think that's good.


I felt the best, fairest Govt we had in recent years was the FG,Labour, DL coalition, yet they got turfed out on their ear. Remember the General Election before they took power (They took power half way through a term, remember?). The people voted to get FF out of office but Dick Spring put them back in. Labour found the penalty for this subsequently.


FF need to change their ethos. They need to get rid of Bertie, along with the smug crew of Roche, Cullen, Dempsey, Martin etc. I think Mary Hanafin would make a good Taoiseach, but as long as the current regime is there I will never vote for them.

I'm not Party biased but I reserve special contempt for FF and SF. I'm firmly of the opinion Bertie would accept SF support to stay in power.


----------



## JohnnyBoy (21 Dec 2006)

Homeowner-as for your post horrifying me,it's because you posted what I thought was an intelligent post,yet added that you will still vote FF.As for my comparing  Bush to Ahern/FF,if you see I wasn't comparing their effect on the world,I was comparing VOTING for Bush to VOTING for Ahern/FF.That is the kind of mentality it is to vote for a politician despite the obvious evidence before one's eyes.I can guarantee you that while Ahern/FF obviously hasn't committed the crimes that Bush has,I can guarantee you that if he had ,you would still get the same core vote voting for FF,yes the floating voters would move elsewhere,but FF would still be tilting for power as evidenced by the fact that Haughey remained in power for so long(even though at the time the dogs in the street didn't know it,it was still relatively well known that he was massively corrupt & HAD A FLAWED PEDIGREE).
Some people will never take their head out of the sand!


----------



## Sunny (21 Dec 2006)

JohnnyBoy said:


> Homeowner-as for your post horrifying me,it's because you posted what I thought was an intelligent post,yet added that you will still vote FF.As for my comparing Bush to Ahern/FF,if you see I wasn't comparing their effect on the world,I was comparing VOTING for Bush to VOTING for Ahern/FF.That is the kind of mentality it is to vote for a politician despite the obvious evidence before one's eyes.I can guarantee you that while Ahern/FF obviously hasn't committed the crimes that Bush has,I can guarantee you that if he had ,you would still get the same core vote voting for FF,yes the floating voters would move elsewhere,but FF would still be tilting for power as evidenced by the fact that Haughey remained in power for so long(even though at the time the dogs in the street didn't know it,it was still relatively well known that he was massively corrupt & HAD A FLAWED PEDIGREE).
> Some people will never take their head out of the sand!


 
Can see where you are coming from but every party has its core vote that won't change allegiance whatever happens. The main challenge is to convince the floating voters that you mentioned to vote for you. In my opinion, the biggest problem in this country is the lack of credible alternative. Probably none between the parties anymore as left and right politics seem to have found a nice middle ground like in the UK with pacts etc and certainly in the case of leaders. I do not want Enda Kenny as leader of this country. So Bertie it is!


----------



## edo (21 Dec 2006)

Sunny said:


> I do not want Enda Kenny as leader of this country. So Bertie it is!



out of pure interest here folks - Why do I come across so many comments like the above in relation to Enda Kenny?

Its interesting in that the man seems to be damned before people hear what he has to say. I bring this up after watching that programme on RTE recently with that US political pollster who was interviewing swing /floating voters about their views on politics. All dismissed Kenny with the usual auld stuff about no personality etc etc ,yet when he showed them a clip of Kenny speaking the votemeters they had in their hands went up and up the more he had to say. It was the opposite with me auld mate Bertie - the more they heard him speak the more the meters graph went down and down - by the time he was crying over his kids with Brian Dobson - it basically flatlined at zero - it would have gone negative if the technology had allowed it.

It posed , in my mind, a very fundamental question about the Irish electorate: We have

A) 1 guy who comes across as a bit stiff and reserved is dismissed without a thought, yet when he articulated his policies and vision was very well received.

B) 1 guy who is your and your granny's best friend , a great man for a pint, will do anything to get in the papers- opening anything from public toilet to an off-licence within a 1000 mile radius of Drumcondra. would have to look up the word "articulate" in the dictionary let alone pronounce it.

This has brought up yet again my deep suspicion about there something genetic in us native Irish that brings out our addiction for gob****es ,plamasers and other associated rogues and chancers . We only seen to vote for other lot when , like most men and their attitude to going to see doctors (myself included) , when the pain is so bad We have no other choice. So bring on immigration see if this disorder can got rid off with fresh Genes in the pool!


I really dont know anymore folks - is our political system about ideas any more ?, about electing people with good ideas vision and the energy and drive to move beyond the Vested Interests Armadas who are strangling democracy in this country? - or going on the comments of some posters here its just a nationalised "You're a Political Spa Contest" - Ah Sure isn't he lovely!!!!

PS - I do not have any political affiliations whatsoever - maybe I and more of my generation should decide to acquire a few before the people who are running the country are the same folks from college that you wouldn't have been caught dead in the same Time Zone as.


----------



## ubiquitous (21 Dec 2006)

edo said:


> out of pure interest here folks - Why do I come across so many comments like the above in relation to Enda Kenny?



This amazes me as well. I support neither Kenny nor his party, but I am consistently both amused and depressed by the numbers of people who seem to dismiss him out of hand. For what its worth, I don't see Enda Kenny as as a messiah but as far as I can see he is just as competent, smart and capable then the likes of Dermot Ahern, Mary Hanafin or Brian Cowen, and a good deal better in all respects than some others of that ilk, notably Micheal Martin.

Interestingly, in the years before John Bruton became Taoiseach, he was also dismissed as someone who was incapable of being a good Taoiseach, but when he became Taoiseach he was widely acknowledged to be a very good leader of the country.


----------



## Sunny (21 Dec 2006)

edo said:


> out of pure interest here folks - Why do I come across so many comments like the above in relation to Enda Kenny?
> 
> Its interesting in that the man seems to be damned before people hear what he has to say. .


 
I have no political leanings either and I am certainly not condemning Enda Kenny without listening to what he says. He didn't just appear yesterday. He has been around while now and has plenty of opportunity to put accross an effective alternative idea of government to the current one. In my opinion, he has failed to do that. I think that the fact that Fianna Fail is still showing strongly in the polls despite their various problems is more a sign of a weak opposition than a particulary strong government getting its act together.


----------



## Betsy Og (21 Dec 2006)

not a Fianna Failer but I think the electorate isnt being given the alternative.

I'd be happier if FG on their own were the alternative but the thought of Pat Rabbitte running the country makes my blood run cold. He strikes me as a sideline whinger, I'd say if he was given the ball to do something with it he'd soil himself. Between himself and Joan "the moan" Burton I'd say they'd drive enterprise from these shores.

With FF at least they are predictable, I'd trust Enda to do the right thing before Berties and Richard Bruton is a decent skin but where do you go after that? I'd have no complaints with Biffo who, as far as I can see, is FF's star.

FF must be laughing all the way to the polls since the PD's obliged and took the 2 main monkeys off their back Health & Justice.

Theres a million things could be done better & money wastage appalls me, but will a raggle taggle FG & Labour do the biz ..... dunno. Since all politics is local I'll be voting FG but I'm caught in a dilemma since I dont want to see Labour about the place.


----------



## Gone Fishin' (21 Dec 2006)

With all due respect to the Opposition, they have to be cagey w.r.t. the upcoming election. If they showed their hand the Govt could steal any idea they wanted and leave the Opposition toothless.

There is a wealth of ammunition for the Opposition to use come election time. There's no point using it now and giving FF/PD a heads up on their strategy.

I'd trust Enda Kenny a thousand times before Bertie Ahern.


----------



## JohnnyBoy (22 Dec 2006)

Betsy Og,I'm afraid my sister has the same feeling,will vote FF so to avoid Lab in government.However only last week Rabitte hinted he could dod business with FF.The reality is that he did his sums & found that the quasi rainbow wouldn't have the nos,so he'll probably do a cosy deal with FF in May(or Easter) & then I will have to laugh at those who voted FF thinking that they would keep Lab out of power that way.
As for not voting FG,because people wouldn't think that Mr Kenny is fit for a leader,are you trying to tell me that Bertie is impressive(who are people kidding-with his butchery of the English language-goverment anyone!!)


----------



## DrMoriarty (10 Oct 2012)

OhPinchy said:


> Add in the cost of the delays he caused to the tribunal with his shameless delaying tactics and that €45 million figure keeps getting bigger. Under no circumstances should his legal costs be paid. Every last penny should be recouped. The Haughey family are not going to go hungry, and I don’t want them to, but I see no reason why they should be able to live more comfortably than the average citizen if the source of that comfort is money gained through his corruption.


Sorry to resuscitate a six-year-old thread, but it's always interesting to examine one's predictions in hindsight...

*[broken link removed]* (_Irish Times_, 10 Oct. 2012)

A tenacious virus indeed.



homeowner said:


> As for the rest of us voting FF in, look at the alternative.  My god if Inda K ever becomes taoiseach i think i'll leave the country.


You still here?


----------



## Purple (10 Oct 2012)

DrMoriarty said:


> Sorry to resuscitate a six-year-old thread, but it's always interesting to examine one's predictions in hindsight...
> 
> *[broken link removed]* (_Irish Times_, 10 Oct. 2012)
> 
> ...



Slow day?


----------



## The_Banker (10 Oct 2012)

Some blast from the past posters on this thread.


----------



## DrMoriarty (10 Oct 2012)

Meh. Nostalgia ain't what it used to be... 

I was actually searching for an old thread about computer viruses. Much easier to get rid of, and less harmful.


----------



## liaconn (10 Oct 2012)

The_Banker said:


> Some blast from the past posters on this thread.


 
Yes, I wonder where they've all gone?

Do you remember the days when, if you went away for five minutes after posting, you would come back to find loads of responses. Now the same old thread seems to stay at the top of the forum for days and days.


----------



## truthseeker (10 Oct 2012)

liaconn said:


> Yes, I wonder where they've all gone?
> 
> Do you remember the days when, if you went away for five minutes after posting, you would come back to find loads of responses. Now the same old thread seems to stay at the top of the forum for days and days.



The site must be gone out of fashion a bit.

Either that or theyve all moved off to some other site we dont know about!


----------



## mandelbrot (10 Oct 2012)

liaconn said:


> Yes, I wonder where they've all gone?
> 
> Do you remember the days when, if you went away for five minutes after posting, you would come back to find loads of responses. Now the same old thread seems to stay at the top of the forum for days and days.


 
Well a quick perusal of this thread shows 5 of the contributors are now banned - AAM for whatever reason has quite a high attrition rate.

Some people's noses get quite out of joint over it! 
www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=81164947
I'm only here a couple of years so I don't know, but according to the boards thread AAM has lost participants to other less heavily moderated sites like Boards and the Property Pin.

Quality is better than Quantity though I reckon


----------



## liaconn (10 Oct 2012)

truthseeker said:


> The site must be gone out of fashion a bit.
> 
> Either that or theyve all moved off to some other site we dont know about!


 
Oh dear. So we're not part of the cool crowd??
I have to admit I do tend to post more frequently now on a couple of other sites that seem more dynamic and fast moving. But I have fond memories of the AAM glory days.


----------



## truthseeker (10 Oct 2012)

liaconn said:


> Oh dear. So we're not part of the cool crowd??
> *I have to admit I do tend to post more frequently now on a couple of other sites that seem more dynamic and fast moving.* But I have fond memories of the AAM glory days.



Very blasphemous!!


----------



## Purple (10 Oct 2012)

liaconn said:


> Oh dear. So we're not part of the cool crowd??
> I have to admit I do tend to post more frequently now on a couple of other sites that seem more dynamic and fast moving. But I have fond memories of the AAM glory days.



You're part of the problem so, pal!


----------



## SlurrySlump (11 Oct 2012)

My sons moved to Boards swearing that they would never come back to AAM. Maybe it's an age thing?


----------



## Purple (11 Oct 2012)

SlurrySlump said:


> My sons moved to Boards swearing that they would never come back to AAM. Maybe it's an age thing?



Sounds like a family obsession


----------



## Delboy (11 Oct 2012)

Back on topic- anyone able to explain how Haughey got his legal costs paid by the state???


----------



## DrMoriarty (11 Oct 2012)

I somehow doubt that even He could have done it from beyond the grave.

I see this as simply more evidence, if such were needed, of the rottenness that lies at the core of our legal system. The barristers ran up a €5 million bill on the never-never, and Charlie never paid them. Not wanting to see his dinner party pals be stuck on this one, the chairman of the tribunal has decided that the State can pick up the tab. Three cheers for the taxpayer!

Doubtless I've failed to grasp the legal complexities of the situation...


----------



## DerKaiser (11 Oct 2012)

DrMoriarty said:


> Doubtless I've failed to grasp the legal complexities of the situation...



You surely have. The sky would fall in if people without the means to pay were denied the right the run up multi-million euro legal bills.


----------



## Delboy (11 Oct 2012)

there must be some legal basis behind them getting their fees....the Tribunal can't just decide off it's own bat to pay up, can they?


----------

