# Im in the Public Service. Do I have to work overtime if asked?



## Scubachick (4 Mar 2009)

Does anyone know if I have to work overtime if I am asked (assuming I am under my 48 hours for that week)?  I am public service. 

I thought that you could be asked, but it is up to the employee to volunteer to do overtime. 

However, I cant find the related circular that covers this - only the circular that outline the rates should you do overtime.

 [broken link removed]

I have also checked on www.citizensinformation.ie to no avail.

Thanks in advance


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## Marianne S (4 Mar 2009)

*Re: Do I HAVE to work overtime if asked?*

Are you a member of a union, I would ask them


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## Calebs Dad (5 Mar 2009)

*Re: Do I HAVE to work overtime if asked?*

Unless it is written into your contract, you do not have to do overtime


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## FutureProof (5 Mar 2009)

*Re: Do I HAVE to work overtime if asked?*

not unless its in your contract, although if you are in a management role it will be expected


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## dinjoecurry (5 Mar 2009)

*Re: Do I HAVE to work overtime if asked?*

lucky you to have a job that gets you overtime -----take it while its going is my advice


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## AlbacoreA (5 Mar 2009)

*Re: Do I HAVE to work overtime if asked?*



dinjoecurry said:


> lucky you to have a job that gets you overtime -----take it while its going is my advice


 
Not everyone can do overtime. Might have to look after someone else, kids, parent etc. Lots of reasons.


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## Doolox (8 Mar 2009)

*Re: Do I HAVE to work overtime if asked?*

I was once in that situation and made a fuss about it in front of the other workers.
It is important how you handle this.
Get a sheet of paper and write down your objections, health family outside commitments etc that prevent you from doing the OT.
It could be a difficult traffic situation, difficult home, a demanding spouse or senior family member etc.
Get it all down on paper and make your case quietly in the office with your boss in private.
Many companies have work/life balance programs and health promotion programs and also the legal restrictions which are in place on overtime and hours worked. Get the HR department or your union to help you in your case.
You may have to commit to a certain level of overtime in the short term but they should have a plan in place to rectify the cause of the overtime and an agreed deadline for its implementation.
Be civil at all tjmes, be firm at all times and offer a small amount of Ot at odd times so as to come acros as reasonable, a blanket refusal to do overtime at all will come across as unreasonable.
When doing the overtime work only at the standard rate or speed in order to avoid disciplinary action for slowness.
They will soon get the message and shift their attention to softer targets and easier people to force into overtime.
If you are too much trouble to manage they will get somone else to do the OT but bear in mind that it may be difficult to get overtime if cash becomes scarce and needed for something in the future. 
You will have marked yourself down as someone who does the standard hours only but that is fine so long as you do a good job in those standard hours.


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## TomOC (8 Mar 2009)

*Re: Do I HAVE to work overtime if asked?*



Doolox said:


> They will soon get the message and shift their attention to softer targets and easier people to force into overtime.


 
This sounds very much to me like your saying it is correct to pick on the weaker people in work. Be really awkward about it and you will get away free. I would really not like to work in this type of atmosphere. Just my opinion


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## dodo (9 Mar 2009)

*Re: Do I HAVE to work overtime if asked?*

I really can't believe that someone in today's work climate would have an issue work OT.Remember what goes round come's around. But unless stated in your contract you may have a case not to be forced to do extra hour's at 1.5-2 times your hourly rate.


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## Caveat (11 Mar 2009)

*Re: Do I HAVE to work overtime if asked?*



TomOC said:


> This sounds very much to me like your saying it is correct to pick on the weaker people in work. Be really awkward about it and you will get away free. I would really not like to work in this type of atmosphere. Just my opinion


 
I agree.  Sounds like a pretty ruthless attitude to me.


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## AlbacoreA (11 Mar 2009)

*Re: Do I HAVE to work overtime if asked?*

Some people are less able to work OT than others, because of other commitments. Other people have no such commitments. Trying to vilify people because of this is very disingenuous. Thats bullying itself.


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## TomOC (11 Mar 2009)

*Re: Do I HAVE to work overtime if asked?*



Doolox said:


> They will soon get the message and shift their attention to softer targets and easier people to force into overtime.
> .


 


TomOC said:


> This sounds very much to me like your saying it is correct to pick on the weaker people in work. Be really awkward about it and you will get away free. I would really not like to work in this type of atmosphere. Just my opinion


 


AlbacoreA said:


> Some people are less able to work OT than others, because of other commitments. Other people have no such commitments. Trying to vilify people because of this is very disingenuous. Thats bullying itself.


 
I agree Albacore that some people can find it very difficult to find time to work extra hours however still feel that this comment above is one of the worst attitudes for someone to have in a job.  Pick on someone weaker basically,mabey I have read out of context though. 

Yes I agree Yorrick


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## AlbacoreA (12 Mar 2009)

*Re: Do I HAVE to work overtime if asked?*

You need to get over yourselves. Its how the world works. Private/public it makes no difference.


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## michaelm (13 Mar 2009)

*Re: Do I HAVE to work overtime if asked?*



Scubachick said:


> Does anyone know if I have to work overtime if I am asked . .


I don't believe so, unless it's explicit in your public service contract, and I'd be surprised if it was.  If it were me then I'd agree on occasion, if it suited me, to show some flexibility . . but if you can't, due to other commitments, then you can't.  I would simply say 'I would but unfortunately I'm not in a position to', that's it, no detailed reason, it's not their business.  You need to manage their expectations that you won't be pressured into it.  My outlook is work to live rather than live to work.


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## Scubachick (16 Mar 2009)

*Re: Do I HAVE to work overtime if asked?*

Thanks for all the help.

The reason I ask is because I am being told that I have to do a full days training (8 hours) and then and then drive home the 3 hours afterwards rather than stay overnight.  The organisation said they wont pay for an overnight and are insisting that I travel as overtime.

I know I am lucky to have a job and lucky to have training provided.  However, I have two kids and nobody to mind them when I travel as we are newly moved to my area.  I need to bring the kids and if I dont stay overnight I will need to travel from about 5:30 pm with them, which means that they will fall asleep in the car and be up all night!  I know that the organisation doesnt care about family circumstances - I have been told that its my own business and no allowance will be made for me.  But am I obliged to work this overtime?


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## Card (16 Mar 2009)

*Re: Do I HAVE to work overtime if asked?*

but how can you travel and do the course with your kids?

I think that you are fortunate to even be offered overtime

I work mon-fri but spent a weekend In January doing a course and there is no question of overtime and/or time off in lieu


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## Complainer (17 Mar 2009)

*Re: Do I HAVE to work overtime if asked?*

This isn't an overtime issue. It is about the obligation to go on training. 

Does this kind of thing happen regularly, or is it a once-off? Is there any mention of requirements to travel in your contract?

If it is just a once-off, you might be as well finding a way to make it happen. Get support from family or friends to mind the kids for that evening.


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## camlin90 (17 Mar 2009)

*Re: Do I HAVE to work overtime if asked?*

I'm private sector. Overtime is non negotiable, unpaid and a given for several months of the year. I'm pretty sure I'm getting a pay cut but I'm not sure I'll have a job at Christmas.

Can we swap?


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## prince2008 (17 Mar 2009)

*Re: Do I HAVE to work overtime if asked?*

A friend of mine works in a small company hours 9-5.  His boss regularly expects staff to stay back late to work and hates staff leaving at 5.  They never get paid for any extra time worked.  He said the most annoying thing is that the staff are there all day working but the boss comes in at 4.30 and starts getting the staff to do stuff so they can't leave on time.  Should they be getting paid overtime??


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## Scubachick (18 Mar 2009)

*Re: Do I HAVE to work overtime if asked?*



Complainer said:


> Does this kind of thing happen regularly, or is it a once-off? Is there any mention of requirements to travel in your contract?


  Yes I am asked to travel fairly often, maybe once a month.  Also, my contract does say that I am required to travel.  I quite enjoy travelling with work, however while the kids are small it is really difficult for me to do this.



Complainer said:


> If it is just a once-off, you might be as well finding a way to make it happen. Get support from family or friends to mind the kids for that evening.


  The problem is that as I have been decentralised I am living in another provance from all my friends and family.  Anyone I know is atleast 3 hours drive away.  We only moved house last November and dont know any neighbours or friends who we can ask to take the kids overnight.  We cant afford to pay a professional.  If we weren't decentralised we would have friends and family around.

Again, I know that I am really lucky to have a job and the option of overtime/ time in lieu.  I don't want to complain, and I am willing to oblige the organisation whenever possible.  However, travelling is really difficult for me and I am seriously out of pocket if I do travel.  Not to mention the fact that the kids are up in a heap with all the different babysitters etc.  So, while I would travel if I could I need to know if I have an option to travel on overtime when I am told to?


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## Card (18 Mar 2009)

*Re: Do I HAVE to work overtime if asked?*

if its written into your contract that you have to travel then you have very little leeway unfortunately as that is what you signed up to


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## Complainer (18 Mar 2009)

*Re: Do I HAVE to work overtime if asked?*



Scubachick said:


> The problem is that as I have been decentralised I am living in another provance from all my friends and family.  Anyone I know is atleast 3 hours drive away.  We only moved house last November and dont know any neighbours or friends who we can ask to take the kids overnight.  We cant afford to pay a professional.  If we weren't decentralised we would have friends and family around.


The decentralisation was voluntary - right? I didn't think anyone was forced into such a move.

When you say 'we', I presume you have a partner around. Can he/she cover these nights away?


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## Scubachick (20 Mar 2009)

Hubby and I both work in the same place, but he is on 24/7 shift work and really not able to work childcare around his shifts.

Decentralisation was voluntary.

Card, it would be easier for me to travel, if I could do it during office hours rather than on my own time.  The organisation is asking me to do a full days training or work and then travel outside these 8 hours.  As I have to bring the kids it means their day is 12 hours or more, depending on where I have to travel to, which I why I am asking about overtime, rather than travel, IYKWIM.

Does anyone know if I HAVE TO work overtime, or is it voluntary?


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## Card (20 Mar 2009)

but how you manage to be back at work the following day if you stay overnight? 

how about you offer a compromise, you travel during work hours but you look after your own accomodation or something similar

if your contract states you are expected to travel then unfortunately its there in black and white, I imagine as well that your Employer doesn't want other employees to go looking for the same


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## Card (20 Mar 2009)

sorry meant to ask what does your contract state about overtime?


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## Brianne (20 Mar 2009)

How can you bring the children on your training day? That doesn't make any kind of sense. As someone who worked shifts for years and had three children , I'm sorry I think for a once off or occasional training day that turns into twelve hours you will have to ask the father of the children to take a day's holidays. If your employer feels that the training is necessary and travel is in your contract and said employer is prepared to pay overtime then I think you have to understand that your baby sitting is not the employer's problem. Some people have children and spouses, some have parents and others have health issues and pets. Working full time with children is not easy and to do it involves compromise. Presumably as decentralisation was voluntary you saw some benefit to doing it. This just happens to be a snag.Get over it.


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## Complainer (21 Mar 2009)

Scubachick said:


> Does anyone know if I HAVE TO work overtime, or is it voluntary?


To be honest, I think you are asking the wrong question. It is unusual to be offered overtime for travel in the public sector - the normal policy is time-in-lieu. I'm guessing that they may be offering you the overtime to try to sweeten the deal for you.

If you contract says that you are required to travel, then you are required to travel, and you need to look after your own domestic arrangements. Like Brianne, I'm wondering how you are bringing your kids to a training day. Who will mind them when the training is on?


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## rmelly (21 Mar 2009)

I've had to start travelling in my job after 3 years of not doing so - I was in the UK for a couple of weeks (was supposed to be 1 week) and was told I needed to stay an extra week with no notice. A year ago I'd have gotten out of it by complaining to my manager - today? I didn't open my mouth. We've had 2 rounds of redundancies already, I know if I'm not billable for even a week that I'm gone - regardless of the long term consequences for the company.

Unexpected trip to Mayo in the morning, up at 5 am, back at 23:00, without overtime or time in lieu? Yes sir, no sir, 2 bags full sir. Don't worry about my personal responsibilities...


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## Scubachick (24 Mar 2009)

Posted in error


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## Scubachick (24 Mar 2009)

Brianne said:


> How can you bring the children on your training day?


 I pay for the hotel babysitter



Brianne said:


> you will have to ask the father of the children to take a day's holidays.


 I cant - he also works for same organisation - sometimes he is on the same training course other times he works shift work. He is based 2 hours drive away from childminder and none of his shifts allow him to drop off/ or collect the kids. Also, he has a company car which is not insured to carry the kids. I know nobody who can do the run with the kids as I am new to the area.




Brianne said:


> baby sitting is not the employer's problem.


 I agree - that's my problem, but the fact is that I HAVE to bring the kids and pay for a hotel babysitter anytime I travel with work. I am out of pocket and I know that is my problem, nor my query here. The nub of the situation here is that up until now I was able to travel with work by staying overnight before and/ or after my work or training. *I am now being asked to travel the same day as the meeting or training. This means that I am being told to do 2-4 hours of travel, then a full 8 hour days work, then travel back another 2-4 hours. *This is an arduous day for an adult and there are many single people here not happy with doing these hours. My kids cannot do a day like this - which I understand is just my tough. But, am I within my rights to say "no" to a day like this? Do I have to work these hours if asked? Normally, as RMelly puts it I say "yes sir, no sir 3 bags full sir" to everything that is asked. But I just cannot do a 12 to 20hour day with the kids in tow. Are employers using the recession to bully us into submission and scare us into working excessive hours to our personal limits and beyond our family's capabilities?


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## chrisboy (24 Mar 2009)

Scubachick said:


> I pay for the hotel babysitter
> I cant - he also works for same organisation - sometimes he is on the same training course other times he works shift work. He is based 2 hours drive away from childminder and none of his shifts allow him to drop off/ or collect the kids. Also, he has a company car which is not insured to carry the kids. I know nobody who can do the run with the kids as I am new to the area.
> 
> I agree - that's my problem, but the fact is that I HAVE to bring the kids and pay for a hotel babysitter anytime I travel with work. I am out of pocket and I know that is my problem, nor my query here. The nub of the situation here is that up until now I was able to travel with work by staying overnight before and/ or after my work or training. *I am now being asked to travel the same day as the meeting or training. This means that I am being told to do 2-4 hours of travel, then a full 8 hour days work, then travel back another 2-4 hours. *This is an arduous day for an adult and there are many single people here not happy with doing these hours. My kids cannot do a day like this - which I understand is just my tough. But, am I within my rights to say "no" to a day like this? Do I have to work these hours if asked? Normally, as RMelly puts it I say "yes sir, no sir 3 bags full sir" to everything that is asked. But I just cannot do a 12 to 20hour day with the kids in tow. Are employers using the recession to bully us into submission and scare us into working excessive hours to our personal limits and beyond our family's capabilities?




I think the kids will manage fine, bring them and get on with it.. You're not really bringing anything to the table in as far as solutions. I have to do training courses the odd time and i've kids and babysitting problems but i just get on with and if the kids get put out for a day well so be it..


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## Yellow Belly (24 Mar 2009)

This thread is just incredible!!! Where do ye people get off- MARS? Has anyone in the public sector been alerted that the entire nation is in recession & you are looking for a "get out clause" to avoid overtime?

By djingo you guys would hate me if I was minister for finance- worried about overtime? You should be worried about keeping your job............maybe a dose of the private sector realities should be administered.

I cannot beleive this post!


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## Red (24 Mar 2009)

I  cannot believe this post. Suck it up!
You have a job. It is not a right or entitlement to bring kids to work.
Where does insurance stand if you have kids in car when you are going to or from the training day ??


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## Red (24 Mar 2009)

Scuba chick - Do your self a favour and sort out your child minding options! 
You should have taken it into consideration when decentralising. Why should your employer have to make special arrangements for you  ?


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## Yellow Belly (24 Mar 2009)

Red said:


> Scuba chick - Do your self a favour and sort out your child minding options!
> You should have taken it into consideration when decentralising. Why should your employer have to make special arrangements for you ?


  Scubachick I wouldn't be as harsh as this poster but myself & my wife both work & we have kids. I am self employed & my wife is an employee & we can appreciate where it may be difficult for you.................BUT

To even come on here with that query is typical of a public service attitude which never ceases to amaze me. 

If this is effecting you that badly then did you consider resigning & telling your employer that you are no longer in a position to commit to work due to childcare commitments?

Do not mean to be cruel or hurtful but why should your employer (and hence me as a tax payer) be held responsible for your childcare?


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## roro123 (24 Mar 2009)

Yellow Belly said:


> By djingo you guys would hate me if I was minister for finance- worried about overtime? You should be worried about keeping your job............maybe a dose of the private sector realities should be administered.
> 
> I cannot believe this post!


 
As in Djingo Reinhardt? LOL

To OP, if you are finding it difficult to manage home/work commitments, then speak to your employer, and as being in the public sectoryou won't get a dose of private sector realities, you may be offered an alternative arrangement or perhaps a different role. But on the issue of childcare, you will need to source something local, I have kids and weird shift arrangements and live far away from my friends and family. When I moved here first it was very difficult to find reliable and "affordable" childcare, but I realised that I couldn't find out what was available locally if I only lived here at night and commuted to work every day. You'll have to take time out to see how you and your partner are going to figure it out and check out the locality for childcare. You could end up burning yourselves out trying to juggle all that.


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## Scubachick (27 Mar 2009)

<> My query does not relate to childcare. 

<> My query is "do I have to work overtime?". Its not that I don't want to. I find it very difficult in my present personal circumstances to put in 12 hour days.

<>


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## michaelm (27 Mar 2009)

Scubachick said:


> I generally come in early, dont take breaks, work through lunch and stay late.  I can hear you all now, "Boo-hoo, doesn't everyone do that".  Yes, and that's my point - whether I am public, civil or private the query is the same.  DO I HAVE TO WORK OVERTIME.  Its not that I dont want to.  I find it very difficult in my present personal circumstances to put in 12 hour days.


If I were you I'd stop coming in early, start taking my breaks, not work through lunch and not work late. No offense but maybe you're a 'soft touch', your manager might see you as malleable, susceptible to pressure.  I don't believe that you have to work overtime.  You should do what suits you.  If it doesn't suit at a particular time then tell your manager calmly but firmly, 'Sorry but I'm not in a position to today'.  

If I were in your position and being badgered or pressured over it I'd engage whatever mechanisms and supports that are available (HR, counseling, mediation) re work/life balance policies, stress management, anti-bullying policies.





			
				Scubachick said:
			
		

> But, am I within my rights to say "no" to a day like this? Do I have to work these hours if asked? Normally, as RMelly puts it I say "yes sir, no sir 3 bags full sir" to everything that is asked. But I just cannot do a 12 to 20hour day with the kids in tow.


AFAIK the European Working Time Directive necessitates that one must have a minimum 11 hour rest period in every 24 hours.


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## Complainer (27 Mar 2009)

Scubachick said:


> DO I HAVE TO WORK OVERTIME. Its not that I dont want to. I find it very difficult in my present personal circumstances to put in 12 hour days.


As I've mentioned above, this is the wrong question to ask. Your contract says that you have to travel, so you have to travel. If you don't want overtime, they can give you time-in-lieu instead, but you still have to travel.

BTW, are you sure that hotel babysitters are geared up for 8 hour shifts. They normally do a few hours in the evening, not a full day shift.


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## Brianne (28 Mar 2009)

If this is causing you so much bother , then your best bet is to ask to speak to your line manager and explain the situation. If you are as diligent as you say then they may be able to defer the training to another time. I think you might find that you have to do these training days and while with two small children they are no doubt difficult to organise, if they are part of your job contract then you will have little choice. Have you thought about arranging back up babysitting in your local area. If this is going to be a regular feature of your job, you might find that a neighbour who is flexible is much more suitable than creches etc. Your line manager and your union rep should be able to look at your contract and give a definitive answer.Best of luck


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## buzybee (28 Mar 2009)

Maybe you should look into taking some parental leave/ doing shorter hours etc. I know you won't earn as much, but working full time and the stress of trying to get babysitting for 2 young children is too much.

I know you will earn less money, but one can't have it all ways.


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