# How much did a vulture fund pay for your mortgage?



## newtothis (3 Mar 2018)

It seems there's a chance you might find out:

https://www.irishtimes.com/business...eveal-price-they-paid-for-mortgages-1.3413133


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## Brendan Burgess (3 Mar 2018)

I think it's very unlikely. 

Funds buy bundles of mortgages.  They don't buy them individually.  

Brendan


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## Open air (3 Mar 2018)

Well at least you might find out the discount at which your mortgage was bought


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## RedOnion (3 Mar 2018)

Extremely unlikely. The ruling is under Data protection as it relates to a loan sale connected exclusively with the named individuals.
There is no such personal data involved in a mortgage portfolio sale. The portfolio is offered as a bundle, and the fund bids on that basis.


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## IdesofMarch (3 Mar 2018)

Open air said:


> Well at least you might find out the discount at which your mortgage was bought



Open Air, you can find out the overall discount a fund bought the loan portfolio for, it is usually corresponded on by the FT or Reuters or some other agency.


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## newtothis (3 Mar 2018)

IdesofMarch said:


> Open Air, you can find out the overall discount a fund bought the loan portfolio for, it is usually corresponded on by the FT or Reuters or some other agency.



Do you have an example? I thought this was generally a very closely guarded secret.

I'm inclined to agree with those who've said it's unlikely to enable individuals to discover the discount applied, as the sale transaction is of a bundle. However, it would be interesting if someone did make a request for all personal data held about them by a vulture fund (has anyone here done that?). It would be hard to believe that there isn't a figure held with each account showing the cost of that loan to the fund; it's equally hard to believe any fund would actually release that figure with all the other information held about a person.


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## IdesofMarch (3 Mar 2018)

*Irish Times*

*AIB sells non-performing buy-to-let loans to Goldman Sachs for €200m*
*Bank will write to the 1,200 borrowers informing them of loan sale next week *
Fri, Apr 14, 2017, 06:00 Updated: Thu, Apr 20, 2017, 16:41
[broken link removed]

Newtothis, just read the article in this daily paper. The vulture fund in this instance was Beltany Property Finance d.a.c.


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## IdesofMarch (3 Mar 2018)

newtothis said:


> Do you have an example? I thought this was generally a very closely guarded secret.
> 
> I'm inclined to agree with those who've said it's unlikely to enable individuals to discover the discount applied, as the sale transaction is of a bundle. However, it would be interesting if someone did make a request for all personal data held about them by a vulture fund (has anyone here done that?). It would be hard to believe that there isn't a figure held with each account showing the cost of that loan to the fund; it's equally hard to believe any fund would actually release that figure with all the other information held about a person.



Newtothis, here is another example, just read the article




CREDIT MARKETS
DECEMBER 6, 2013 / 8:51 AM / IN 4 YEARS
*Apollo buys $419 mln of Irish home loans from Lloyds*

Reuters Staff

2 MIN READ

LONDON, Dec 6 (Reuters) - U.S. private equity firm Apollo has bought a portfolio of Irish home loans from Britain’s Lloyds Banking Group for 257 million pounds ($419.4 million), less than half their nominal value.

Lloyds, which has lost billions of pounds in Ireland since the financial crisis and is one-third owned by the UK government, said on Friday the non-performing loans had a nominal value of 610 million pounds. They were sold at a 58 percent discount to that value.


There is no great big secret, all this type of information is readily available, people just have to look in the right places.


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## Rambo1 (3 Mar 2018)

Yes , they announced this on the date mentioned above, however I believe the loans were sold at a greater discount than the 58% discount as published/announced!I would not  take it as gospel as what Lloyds would state to the stock market!  Also at a meeting with this crowd....they stumbled when answering my questions re the purchased discounted amount! and further stated that each loan was discounted on an individual basis? i.e one loan maybe 40%  discount and another more than 58%....etc etc

I always argued the point in court re the amount they demanded! i.e I always stated that I would pay them what they actually paid for the loan!+ an agreed % return! I suggested to the court that the when they wanted the arrears I stated I am not in any arrears with the fund as I have not missed any payments! and payed the total amount that was due over the period since they purchased the loan/charge!

I have recently made a full data request that includes all documentation to include purchase price, etc etc


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## Amber's (3 Mar 2018)

You will be able to find out how much the vultcher fund paid soon , according to the data rights commissin.


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## IdesofMarch (4 Mar 2018)

Rambo1 said:


> Yes , they announced this on the date mentioned above, however I believe the loans were sold at a greater discount than the 58% discount as published/announced!I would not  take it as gospel as what Lloyds would state to the stock market!  Also at a meeting with this crowd....they stumbled when answering my questions re the purchased discounted amount! and further stated that each loan was discounted on an individual basis? i.e one loan maybe 40%  discount and another more than 58%....etc etc
> 
> I always argued the point in court re the amount they demanded! i.e I always stated that I would pay them what they actually paid for the loan!+ an agreed % return! I suggested to the court that the when they wanted the arrears I stated I am not in any arrears with the fund as I have not missed any payments! and payed the total amount that was due over the period since they purchased the loan/charge!
> 
> I have recently made a full data request that includes all documentation to include purchase price, etc etc



If each loan Tanager has acquired was discounted on an individual basis as alluded to by Rambo1, then the decision of the data protection commissioner should make it possible for Tanager customers to apply under a data access request to get their individual discount, after all, it is their data.


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## newirishman (4 Mar 2018)

I am not so sure if you have a right to that information, even in light of GDPR. The discount is arguably not personal data. I would be looking forward to the details of any decision from the data commissioner, because with my current knowledge of the GDPR legislation I would not see this as a clear cut case.
Further, this is commercially sensitive data. Also, imagine you buy a sofa on credit.
Do you have a right to know what the the retailer paid for the sofa, just because you get in trouble with repayments a few months down the line?
But let’s assume for the moment you get the information, and say your 350K outstanding mortgage was sold to Tanager for 175K.
That still doesn’t mean that Tanager has to accept an offer for anything less than the 350K. They are under no obligation to make any deals.
As your mortgage contracts states, you can lose your home if you don’t keep up with the payments.

Ignoring that for another moment, what would an acceptable offer look like?
180K? 200K? 250K? 300K?
And who would decide how much it should be? The debtor? Whatever random number a judge would pull out of thin air? David Hall? The government, or maybe the Central Bank?


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## Amber's (5 Mar 2018)

On the other hand , let' s say you bye that sofa or what ever , after a couple of days this product is  not in merchanable  condition,  so you go back to the original sellers,,and there doors are shut. Thay left the country for what ever reason , like, withe coller criminal activity, or minipulation. Or liquidation,           for  You as a consumer. it' s tuff luck no come back, no hope in getting your money back, no chance, the best of luck with your bad product, so  what's  good for the goose is good for the gander,, tanager made a bad bad purchases,  in relation to  the book of loans.


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## Amber's (5 Mar 2018)

And we never actually agreed to be in a book, or a bundle,  we  paid a lot of money to legal companies to administer our individual rights as consumers and individual home purchase s...it' not in any contract I have red.nore did my legal representative explain this catastrophic possibility  that my loan might be sold to a vultcher fund! whether in arrears or not in arrears.


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## newtothis (5 Mar 2018)

Amber's said:


> it' not in any contract I have red.nore did my legal representative explain this catastrophic possibility  that my loan might be sold to a vultcher fund! whether in arrears or not in arrears.



Unfortunately, it's a pretty standard term in most contracts that one or other or both parties have the right to assign it to someone else, which is what happens when the loan is sold. In any mortgage contract I've seen that right is on one side only (the bank) and doesn't require the prior permission of the other side (you). Your solicitor may or may not have pointed this out to you at the time you signed it. Until all this happened it was a fairly benign term, usually invoked only when one bank purchased or merged with another.


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## Amber's (5 Mar 2018)

Hi newtothis , i dont see that standerd term in my contract . And what about the data infringement?          in relation to passing on all your personal information. Without your consent , thats not In the contract .


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## newtothis (5 Mar 2018)

Amber's said:


> Hi newtothis , i dont see that standerd term in my contract . And what about the data infringement?          in relation to passing on all your personal information. Without your consent , thats not In the contract .



I think you should check your contract again: it usually has the heading of "Assignment". It probably doesn't mention anything about the sale of the loan, but it will say that one of the parties to the agreement can assign someone to take over their responsibilities in relation to the agreement, which is what happens whan a sale occurs.

A lender can also off-load the management of the mortgage to a third party, which isn't classed a disclosure in terms of data protection. See: [broken link removed]


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## Andy836 (5 Mar 2018)

Serious stretch of the imagination going on in that article


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## Amber's (5 Mar 2018)

I would  definitely question the compatability of how the individuals information was obtained.


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## Amber's (6 Mar 2018)

Newtothis, wahat do you think?


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## RedOnion (6 Mar 2018)

Amber's said:


> I would  definitely question the compatability of how the individuals information was obtained.


What you're asking goes to the very heart of whether or not the bank had a right to sell the mortgage in the first place. If they couldn't, nobody would have bought them, as the purchaser would have no contractual rights.
This is one of the very first steps checked in a due diligence of loan sales.


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## newtothis (6 Mar 2018)

Amber's said:


> Newtothis, wahat do you think?



I think you're clutching at straws. 

I have to admit when it happened to me (sale to vulture fund, that is) the first thing I did was check my mortgage contract on the off-chance it didn't have an assignment clause, but sure enough there it was.  I don't recall it registering with me when I signed originally, and I doubt my solicitor raised it either at the time. I'm no legal expert by the way, but have signed many, many contracts over the years and as I said it's a very standard clause.

It also crossed my mind there may be an issue over data protection, and I did some research at the time but came to the conclusion pretty rapdily there was no issue there either. See the link I posted earlier. All that's happened is that another organisation has taken over the same data used for the same purpose - this happens all the time in a variety of contexts.


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## Amber's (7 Mar 2018)

I wouldn't say I was clutching at straw's at all! I would say everything is up for scrutiny.


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## virgo2011 (12 Jun 2022)

Hi all,

Just wondering if any of you have managed or know of any person(s) who have managed to find out what a vulture fund paid for their mortgage?
Very interesting read https://www.irishtimes.com/business...eveal-price-they-paid-for-mortgages-1.3413133
TIA


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## Brendan Burgess (12 Jun 2022)

It's pretty much irrelevant. 

That Irish Times article is 4 years old. I haven't heard any developments on the issue since. 









						Data ruling may force vulture funds to reveal price they paid for mortgages
					

Ruling could allow homeowners find out what funds paid to buy their mortgages




					www.irishtimes.com


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