# Punishing Labour



## chum (28 Jan 2016)

Is it unfair to punish the Labour party for the actions of the present government while at the same time rewarding Fine Gael. They were both instrumental in the success acheived over the last term but Fine Gael seems the only party benefiting and look set to remain in power after the next election. If I were a member of the Labour party I would certainly feel aggrieved, after all taking tough unpopular decisions in order to turn the country around was not easy and then not getting any reward even more frustrating. Maybe Labour voters will reconsider and realize the success the present government has achieved even after so much pain.


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## Purple (28 Jan 2016)

Many of the people who voted Labour didn't want the hard decisions to be made. They wanted reality to be different. Unfortunately reality isn't different and that's Labour's fault. The same applied to any left of center party which gets into power. The Greens suffered the same fate after being in power with FF even though their ministers generally did a good job.


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## Firefly (28 Jan 2016)

Purple said:


> The Greens suffered the same fate after being in power with FF even though their ministers generally did a good job.



I wonder will the Greens be a part of the next government...


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## Purple (28 Jan 2016)

Firefly said:


> I wonder will the Greens be a part of the next government...


I wouldn't bet on it!


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## dereko1969 (29 Jan 2016)

They'll have 2 TDs in the next Dáil so will depend on numbers of FG & Labour.

The smaller party always takes the brunt of abuse even though as the smaller party their policies don't often get as much priority in agreements to Govern. The last election left FG and Labour as the only option, people seem to forget that. Labour ensured that the minimum wage was protected, that social welfare payments were targeted at those seeking to work, not skive and they also ensured that the equality referendum was brought in, all good things.

When the Lib-Dems were punished in the UK the true face of Tory policies was allowed to proceed unchecked. I'm not saying FG are the same but they do have some similar tendencies. They've no chance of getting a majority but if they ended up with a rag-bag of independents I think that would be bad for the country as there could be a dozen "Gregory" deals.

I reckon we'll end up with a FG/Lab/Green/Renua Government!


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## Purple (29 Jan 2016)

Labour have a core support of about 10%. It is the party of the middle to upper income urban socialist. Their supporters are typically reasonably well educated and liberal and have a fixed/professional income (Solicitors, Architects, public sector employees etc.) who have a good income, little contact with poor people and feel middle-class guild. Ruairi Quinn articulated that profile quite well in a radio interview a few years back.

Anything above that 10% support is just the result of a protest vote. The problem they now face is that they are in government and so have to go into an election having been tarnished by reality for the last 5 years and there are now lots of independents and parties on the loony-left who will attract the vote of those who think that wishing the world was different will make it so.


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## Purple (1 Feb 2016)

I spoke to a friend of mine the other night. She said that anything over 8 hours was a punishing labour.



She's not really into politics.


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## blueband (3 Feb 2016)

chum said:


> Is it unfair to punish the Labour party for the actions of the present government while at the same time rewarding Fine Gael. They were both instrumental in the success acheived over the last term but Fine Gael seems the only party benefiting and look set to remain in power after the next election. If I were a member of the Labour party I would certainly feel aggrieved, after all taking tough unpopular decisions in order to turn the country around was not easy and then not getting any reward even more frustrating. Maybe Labour voters will reconsider and realize the success the present government has achieved even after so much pain.


The problem for labour is that they made to many promises they either couldn't or wouldn't keep. they sold out their principles for a shot at the limelight, which makes the people you lied to very angry, that's why they are getting punished.


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## dereko1969 (3 Feb 2016)

blueband said:


> The problem for labour is that they made to many promises they either couldn't or wouldn't keep. they sold out their principles for a shot at the limelight, which makes the people you lied to very angry, that's why they are getting punished.



But they weren't the bigger party! How difficult is it for people to understand that? What's the point in being in politics if you don't get into Government?


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## Purple (3 Feb 2016)

blueband said:


> The problem for labour is that they made to many promises they either couldn't or wouldn't keep*. they sold out their principles for a shot at the limelight, which makes the people you lied to very angry*, that's why they are getting punished.


 I think that's very unfair. I would never vote Labour but the reality of politics is there for all to see. Every party has to work within that reality. Punishing them because of that is nonsensical.


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## Purple (3 Feb 2016)

dereko1969 said:


> But they weren't the bigger party! How difficult is it for people to understand that? What's the point in being in politics if you don't get into Government?


I don't know... ask the Shinners.


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## Firefly (3 Feb 2016)

I think I'm going to vote Labour this time simply as I see them conforming to the middle as they have done for the past 5 years and FG are going to get in anyway. They, IMO, are the lowest risk to the economy compared to the others on the looney left.


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## chum (4 Feb 2016)

Has the electorate lost its appetite for protest votes. Voting for candidates who are guaranteed to spend their entire political careers in opposition seems a waste. Illuminating the Dail with the obvious faults present in the economy without ever having the power to exact change seems to me like a charade.What is the attraction for left leaning independent candidates to run outside a party structure like the Labour party. I can't imagine spending 20 years as a Dail deputy in opposition with my moral outrage intact but not much else to show for.


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## Purple (4 Feb 2016)

chum said:


> Has the electorate lost its appetite for protest votes. Voting for candidates who are guaranteed to spend their entire political careers in opposition seems a waste. Illuminating the Dail with the obvious faults present in the economy without ever having the power to exact change seems to me like a charade.What is the attraction for left leaning independent candidates to run outside a party structure like the Labour party. I can't imagine spending 20 years as a Dail deputy in opposition with my moral outrage intact but not much else to show for.


People on the far left tend to lose their seats after being in office. Therefore they stay away from that sort of thing. I'm sure the same would be the case if we has any far right TD's but thankfully we don't; the nutters on the left are quite enough.


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## cork (4 Feb 2016)

People remember the "Every Little Hurts" Labour posters before the last election. Ruairi Quinn also gave commitments with regards to 3rd level capitation fees. They also made false promises on burning bonds.

Pat Rabbitt made some comments on election promises.

Many Labour TDs didn't even bother to turn up for the debates on Vincent Browne.

I think that they are in danger of being gobbled by other left or "Left" partys.


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## Purple (4 Feb 2016)

cork said:


> People remember the "Every Little Hurts" Labour posters before the last election. Ruairi Quinn also gave commitments with regards to 3rd level capitation fees. They also made false promises on burning bonds.
> 
> Pat Rabbitt made some comments on election promises.
> 
> ...


Not talking to Vincent Browne is a positive in my book. He's like one of those nutters who sits beside you on the bus. There's not an ounce of credibility or balance in the man.
You are an FF supporter and that's fine but as such isn't it a bit rich to give out about empty/broken promises?
I agree that Labour could be hit hard by the looney left. Having been in power they have been tarnished by reality, never a good thing for a Left wing party.


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## Duke of Marmalade (4 Feb 2016)

The apparently permanent political legacy of the crisis is the decimation of the FF vote.  It was a whopping 24% down in 2011.  Today that still stands at 20%.  Who benefitted in 2011?  Well top share-out of 9.2% went to Labour, 8.8% went to FG, 3% went to SF and 3% to Inds.  Today that share-out looks a lot like this:  5% to FG, 12% to SF, 3% to Inds and 0% to Labour.  And to my mind this is much more natural divvie up of a FF collapse. 

The real question is why did Labour get such an unnatural share in 2011.  Well they were the constitutional Anti Austerity party.  The Tesco ad and what Gilmore wasn't going to do when let loose in Frankfurt.  So it is not so much that Labour are being punished it is simply that they are giving up a wholly unnatural share of the FF spoils and are back to as they were.  In one sense the losers are FG who are predicted to lose 16 seats and give back 4% of that share of the FF spoils.


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## Betsy Og (12 Feb 2016)

Am considering giving Labour a high preference as a "reward" for staying the course. Have never voted for them before. Am happy with FG and the continuation of the current arrangement would be ideal. I couldnt vote for FF for time being at least. I think I could suffer them being the junior part to FG but not vice versa (I wretched when Niall Collins said he could only consider it if FF the bigger party.... unfounded arrogance sprang to mind). Am afraid the Looney Left are eating Labours lunch (or the curry chips portion of it at least) & I accept they got a protest bounce last time (as they did before). Anyone voting looney left is either a) wishing things were different or b) has no skin in the game - i.e. they're already getting everything laid on for them and whoever promises most gravy for nothing will get the vote.

I understand we're in the throes of election promises and auction politics, but I hope when the inevitable coalition comes about they calm down on cut tax spend spend agenda - this is as someone who's paying a lot of tax, but I'd rather keep it steady as we go (even if it costs me) rather than widly swinging from extreme to extreme - ..... 'have we learned nothing' type of idea.


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## Delboy (12 Feb 2016)

Betsy Og said:


> I understand we're in the throes of election promises and auction politics, but I hope when the inevitable coalition comes about they calm down on cut tax spend spend agenda - this is as someone who's paying a lot of tax, but I'd rather keep it steady as we go (even if it costs me) rather than widly swinging from extreme to extreme - ..... 'have we learned nothing' type of idea.


I think that decision will be made for them externally. Things are really looking shaky in the Global Economy. 
All the major News channels/programmes have had features this week on the possible storms that seem to be coming. I have a feeling the 1st thing the new Govt will be telling us in March is that 'things have changed due to circumstances outside our control'


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## Leper (13 Feb 2016)

I work as a low level public servant and am in touch with many of my kind every day (most of whom are female).  From conversations I hear at every break the knives are out to kill Labour.  Haddington Road, Croke Park etc are four letter words in the public service especially amongst the footsoldiers. I'm with Betsy Óg and we all took some bad hits but Ireland Ltd has to start from somewhere.  I will be voting Labour and using the Single Transfer Vote to do as much harm as I can to Fianna Fáil, the people credited with getting us into the mess. My family are traditional FF supporters and would even vote for Michéal Martin given the chance.  So, this time round, I will be voting pro existing government, but in the order of my choice.


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## Gerry Canning (15 Feb 2016)

Why punish Labour,
Had they NOT joined in 2011 with Fine Gael , they would have been abused as only wanting to look after their future vote.
Going into power they get hammered for the governments  perceived unfairness.

I would think on the hand they were dealt in 2011 they get an A+ for keeping tabs on Fine Gael + 120,000 more jobs.

They seem to be taking the hit on Fine Gaels (promised) mantra of NEW style of government.
Things like the 100 euro bribe on water charges ,
 the croneyism that seemed to follow the Mc Nulty affair,
 not putting clear water twix themselves and Mr Lowry.
It appears Labour are being hammered for Fine Gaels drift to Fianna Fials, type of gombeenism ? 

Go figure ???


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## Delboy (15 Feb 2016)

That 100e bribe you mention came from the Dept of Environment which is headed up by who? Yes, Labour's Future Leader AK47.
The same Dept thats in charge of Housing.

Labour have been in charge of Education the past 5 years. They broke their pledge on College Fees early on.
They have done nothing to sort out school places especially in Dublin. In fact, they have cemented the 'old school tie' network in admission to elite private secondary schools (where a lot of them attended back in the day!)

And as for cronyism....you can remember back to McNulty but not to the more recent drama over David Begg!!!

I think you protest too much in your attempts to play Labour as some sort of innocent angels who couldn't fully tame the FG beast 
Perhaps you are displaying your voting intentions!


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## Gerry Canning (15 Feb 2016)

Afternoon Delboy,

1. On my voting intentions, we ain,t got any labour candidate in Donegal.ps like your AK47 put down.
2. I take your point with your take on Water Charges bribe.
3. I think Begg had the undoubted skill set for that job ,and I also think any minister should be permitted to appoint when candidate is obviously suitable,
 I think that's  slightly different to lobbing someone (like mc Nulty) into a post just for the local profile.
4. I also agree Labour ditched too many pledges, so deserve the hammer.
5. Labour are far from {innocent angels} but from somewhere with no Labour candidate to (blame) all I see is more gombeenism from the lot of them !

I am the (original) floating voter.

Going to be an interesting election.


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## Delboy (15 Feb 2016)

Begg was on the Central Bank Board during the Crash. He was on the Aerlingus Board as Ryanair continued to sky rocket past them.
How he was an 'ideal fit' as so many commentators claim for the role of Chair of the Pensions Authority is beyond me. I don't think he has any background or expertise in the area of Pensions that I can see


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## Purple (16 Feb 2016)

Delboy said:


> Begg was on the Central Bank Board during the Crash. He was on the Aerlingus Board as Ryanair continued to sky rocket past them.
> How he was an 'ideal fit' as so many commentators claim for the role of Chair of the Pensions Authority is beyond me. I don't think he has any background or expertise in the area of Pensions that I can see


Don't forget about him being on the board of the ERSI when they were getting things wrong during the boom. Credit where credit is due!


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## Gerry Canning (16 Feb 2016)

Whoops !
Looks like Mr Begg has put bad Karma everywhere, can I sack him please?

........................................................


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## Purple (17 Feb 2016)

Gerry Canning said:


> Whoops !
> Looks like Mr Begg has put bad Karma everywhere, can I sack him please?
> 
> ........................................................


He's in a Union. He can't be sacked. 
In fairness to David Begg he's a smart man and very experienced. He's make it to any short list for this sort of appointment.


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## Delboy (17 Feb 2016)

Purple said:


> He's in a Union. He can't be sacked.
> In fairness to David Begg he's a smart man and very experienced. He's make it to any short list for this sort of appointment.


Why? What does he know about Pensions apart from the fact that he probably has a few of them?


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## Gerry Canning (17 Feb 2016)

Delboy,
From memory, (dangerous), Begg was on a previous committee viewing pensions ,so on balance probably an ok appointment.
No matter who is in power I wouldn,t want all and every appointment being checked to the ninth degree, all that would do is stymie movement.
I think we can all see when any appointment is clearly gombeenism.eg I can think of appointment to BIM Bord Iascagh Mhara of a land locked co councillor etc !.

I do not think we want to permit ourselves to assume appointments are hookey.
I think we have to give all Parties a bit of slack. Otherwise we get caught up in interminable interviews etc.

I readily accept most parties have been their own authors of our mistrust.


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## Purple (22 Feb 2016)

Labour now at 4% and looking like they'll be lucky to hold on to 10 seats.
They don't deserve that sort of a hammering.


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## Gerry Canning (22 Feb 2016)

Back in 2011 , no-one would have allowed Labour NOT to go into coalition.
Back in 2011   no -one would have believed unemployment is now in 2016 below10%.

Now in 2016 we don,t view last 5 years as recovery ,more that we survived.
Now in 2016 we still expect recovery , and blame incumbents for leading us from a terrible place to the survival place.

In 2011 we were told Irl Incorporated was banjaxed.
In 2016 we are told )recovery?

Does not add up, so  either .
1. We were not really banjaxed in 2011
or
2. We have not really recovered?  

I think Labour in 2011 got the Fianna Fail vote .
In 2016 they will lose the Fianna Fail vote.

I don,t think that is fair , but that's politics, or maybe thats just voters?.


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## Firefly (22 Feb 2016)

Purple said:


> Labour now at 4% and looking like they'll be lucky to hold on to 10 seats.
> They don't deserve that sort of a hammering.


I agree and compared to the plethora of muppets to the left of them, they're really are not a bad partner. In fact I am pleasantly surprised how well Labour have done in office.


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## Leper (22 Feb 2016)

Like I said in another post I will be voting Labour this time.  I also pointed out that there were many in the Public Service felt screwed by the coalition (me being one) and Labour has been singled out for special treatment on polling day. In the local elections some time ago I did not vote Fine Gael or Labour mainly to use mine as a protest vote against what I believed was too austere a regime.  

The whole country was burned by the austere acts of the government, but many PS workers believe they endured more than most.  So they have been waiting to vent their anger. Labour is an easy target now, but let's face it, they set themselves up as stool-pigeons and are now prepared to be shot.


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## Purple (23 Feb 2016)

They position themselves on the left hand side of the moral high ground. That means they are held to a high standard by their voters. They are the party of the leftwing establishment and as such their voters are not just voting out of self interest. That means that they are exposed more than most to swings in political fortunes. In essence they are a Fianna Fail for the liberal urban rich who don’t like gombeen politics.


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## Delboy (23 Feb 2016)

Exactly...they are FF for the Gombeens of Dublin! Of course those folk don't see themselves as 'Gombeens'
I made that very point to the Labour candidate in my area who called yesterday....he didn't get the connection


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## Purple (24 Feb 2016)

Delboy said:


> Exactly...they are FF for the Gombeens of Dublin! Of course those folk don't see themselves as 'Gombeens'
> I made that very point to the Labour candidate in my area who called yesterday....he didn't get the connection


No, FF are the FF for the Gombeens of Dublin. The problem FF have is that the Gombeens of Dublin are also self-serving idiots and so will vote for AAA/PBP instead.


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## cremeegg (24 Feb 2016)

Purple said:


> No, FF are the FF for the Gombeens of Dublin. The problem FF have is that the Gombeens of Dublin are also self-serving idiots and so will vote for AAA/PBP instead.



Just so long as they don't vote for the Greens.


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## Purple (25 Feb 2016)

cremeegg said:


> Just so long as they don't vote for the Greens.


They'll get my number 1, as they always do.


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## cremeegg (25 Feb 2016)

The Greens.



Purple said:


> They'll get my number 1, as they always do.



Every time I switch on my low energy low light bulb I curse Eamonn Ryan while waiting for it to warm up.

Every time I have to flush my small slimline cistern toilet I curse Trevor Sargent while waiting for the small slimline cistern to fill up again, because it needs to be flushed a second time because the capacity of my small slimline cistern is inadequate.

Every time I take the poorly washed dishes from my A rated dishwasher I curse the Greens who mandated energy efficient dishwashers that use less water and less electricity but wash less well than the old ones.

Every time I sit into my car I curse John Gormley who cost the state €200m in lost car tax by introducing incentives for cars with lower CO2 emissions, 6 months before the EU mandated them.

Every time I open my fridge I laugh out loud at all the greens who threw out their old CFC using fridges when the hole in the Ozone layer was fashionable. The poor fridge was doing no harm to the Ozone layer while it was working away in the kitchen, but when the dumb Green threw it out the CFC leaked out and made its way to the upper atmosphere and did its bit to degrade the Ozone layer.


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## Purple (26 Feb 2016)

cremeegg said:


> Every time I have to flush my small slimline cistern toilet I curse Trevor Sargent while waiting for the small slimline cistern to fill up again, because it needs to be flushed a second time because the capacity of my small slimline cistern is inadequate.


 They use water energy. A good thing for everyone. I manage to flush away the contents on the first go and I enjoy my food as much as the next glutton!





cremeegg said:


> Every time I take the poorly washed dishes from my A rated dishwasher I curse the Greens who mandated energy efficient dishwashers that use less water and less electricity but wash less well than the old ones.


 Buy better detergent.




cremeegg said:


> Every time I sit into my car I curse John Gormley who cost the state €200m in lost car tax by introducing incentives for cars with lower CO2 emissions, 6 months before the EU mandated them.


 That was a huge success, reducing emissions and reducing the amount of fuel we use as a nation. One of their finest hours.




cremeegg said:


> Every time I open my fridge I laugh out loud at all the greens who threw out their old CFC using fridges when the hole in the Ozone layer was fashionable. The poor fridge was doing no harm to the Ozone layer while it was working away in the kitchen, but when the dumb Green threw it out the CFC leaked out and made its way to the upper atmosphere and did its bit to degrade the Ozone layer.


 Your old fridge was recycled and the CFC was removed in an environmentally sustainable way... unless you broke the law and threw it in a dump yourself.


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## Betsy Og (26 Feb 2016)

After all my talk I discovered no Labour candidate....

So FG, local Independent (non Healy Rae type I would hope), FG, Green


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## Purple (27 Feb 2016)

Green, Renua, FG, FG, FF, labour, Independent, Shinners, Shane Ross.

Yes, there is someone I dislike even more that the Shinners.


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## cremeegg (28 Feb 2016)

I can't believe that the Greens got two seats 


            or should that be 


At least the Greens only got two seats


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## Gerry Canning (29 Feb 2016)

Dear cremeegg,

If the Greens are right about things , and the consensus is starting to favour their view, then we might be advised to have more of them ?
If they are wrong then climate/societal issues will fade away.
I just hope they are wrong.

We don,t vote long term , maybe we should ?


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## cremeegg (1 Mar 2016)

My first concern about the greens is not that their ideas are right or wrong but that they like to go about their business using coercion rather than persuasion.

By all means highlight the advantages, economic and environmental of modern light bulbs, but dont introduce legislation forcing me to buy the type you favour.

My second concern about the Irish Green Party is that many of their actions are counter productive. They are really not too bright. For example, too much Greenery has addled poor Purple, usually the most sensible of posters"



cremeegg said:


> Every time I take the poorly washed dishes from my A rated dishwasher I curse the Greens who mandated energy efficient dishwashers that use less water and less electricity but wash less well than the old ones.





Purple said:


> Buy better detergent.



Ah yes the next green campaign, buy better detergent.

But most of all I loathe their smug holier-than-thou self-righteousness, (and I am not talking about Purple there).

If the road to hell is paved with good intentions, the greens are driving there as fast as they can in a low emission car with a totally unjustified self-defeating tax break


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## Leo (2 Mar 2016)

cremeegg said:


> By all means highlight the advantages, economic and environmental of modern light bulbs, but dont introduce legislation forcing me to buy the type you favour.



Most of that's is cross party coming from Europe and will likely still not be enough to hit CO2 targets.


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## cremeegg (14 Mar 2016)

Well Purple, it seems its not just me.

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/threads/best-wood-pellet-boiler-or-just-go-with-oil.198189/


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## Firefly (15 Mar 2016)

cremeegg said:


> By all means highlight the advantages, economic and environmental of modern light bulbs, but dont introduce legislation forcing me to buy the type you favour.



No need for legislation. They will pay for themselves in a short period of time. A fraction of the energy consumption and a much longer lifespan. 2.99 or something in Aldi. A no-brainer


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