# EU reaches agreement on ‘landmark’ crypto rules



## Brendan Burgess (1 Jul 2022)

EU reaches agreement on ‘landmark’ crypto rules
					

Landmark Markets in Cryptoassets  directive will set common rules across bloc




					www.irishtimes.com
				



_
The European Union (EU) has reached a provisional agreement on a landmark set of rules that will bring cryptoassets under the supervision of the European body that regulates securities markets.

Dubbed the Markets in Cryptoassets (MiCA) directive, the key legislation will apply broadly to the crypto sector, setting common rules across all 27 member states. It marks the first time globally that lawmakers have attempted to supervise the sector on such a scale.

Under the rules, all cryptoasset service providers — including exchanges like Coinbase and Binance as well as hedge funds trading in crypto — will have to be authorised by relevant national authorities in each jurisdiction and also the European Securities and Markets Authority before they can operate.

The EU aims to have the legislation, which will now be passed to the Economic and Monetary Affairs Committee of the European Parliament before a plenary vote, in force by 2024._


----------



## Brendan Burgess (1 Jul 2022)

Brendan Burgess said:


> The EU aims to have the legislation ... in force by 2024.



The question is... will there be a crypto market still in existence?


----------



## tecate (1 Jul 2022)

Brendan Burgess said:


> The question is... will there be a crypto market still in existence?


lol....your contemplation on regulation is certainly unique Brendan.


----------



## Rasputin (1 Jul 2022)

Bitcoin mining operations will now have to disclose their energy use and prominently display information online about their environmental and climate impact.  I think a lot of people will be surprised how much energy is needed to produce nothing.


----------



## tecate (1 Jul 2022)

Rasputin said:


> Bitcoin mining operations will now have to disclose their energy use and prominently display information online about their environmental and climate impact.  I think a lot of people will be surprised how much energy is needed to produce nothing.



Point me to the thread where you've expressed your outrage at the environmental disaster that gold mining is. And before you say but that's useful, the overwhelming majority of gold sits in vaults gathering dust. Industrial use only accounts for a small fraction of its use. 

Meanwhile, you'd be much happier to see more energy than we ever need escape the grid and remain unutilised as is happening half the time at every power plant on the planet. And lets not mention the ability of Bitcoin mining to reduce c02 emissions by making a productive use out of flared gas on remote oilfields. Or the erratic renewable wind/solar projects that can be subsidised by co-locating a Bitcoin mining farm to use that excess energy that's so often produced when the grid doesn't need it. Better not to do that - and use taxpayers money to subsidise renewables instead.


----------



## newirishman (1 Jul 2022)

tecate said:


> Point me to the thread where you've expressed your outrage at the environmental disaster that gold mining is. And before you say but that's useful, the overwhelming majority of gold sits in vaults gathering dust. Industrial use only accounts for a small fraction of its use.
> 
> Meanwhile, you'd be much happier to see more energy than we ever need escape the grid and remain unutilised as is happening half the time at every power plant on the planet. And lets not mention the ability of Bitcoin mining to reduce c02 emissions by making a productive use out of flared gas on remote oilfields. Or the erratic renewable wind/solar projects that can be subsidised by co-locating a Bitcoin mining farm to use that excess energy that's so often produced when the grid doesn't need it. Better not to do that - and use taxpayers money to subsidise renewables instead.


Whataboutery much?

Honestly, there is no way to put a shine on the energy waste that is crypto currency mining.


----------



## tecate (1 Jul 2022)

newirishman said:


> Whataboutery much?


That's a cop out and a lazy response. It's more than reasonable to point out that matters related to crypto/Bitcoin are not being dealt with equitably - in this case energy use.




newirishman said:


> Honestly, there is no way to put a shine on the energy waste that is crypto currency mining.



Well you can't put any 'shine' on its energy use as per the examples I provided you with - when you just blatantly ignore them. It's just symptomatic of a lack of pragmatism in your attitude towards Bitcoin. Imagine that even in the cases where I've demonstrated that Bitcoin mining can assist in reducing c02 emissions or in subsidizing and making renewable power plants viable, you don't have the objectivity to at least acknowledge in those cases that at a minimum you wouldn't have an objection even if you disagree with the idea of Bitcoin itself. Says it all.

And beyond all of that you can scream bloody blue murder about Bitcoin mining - you could even petition the EU to blanket ban it and even if successful, it will make no earthly difference. Bitcoin mining will continue somewhere in the world at a given time.


----------



## Firefly (1 Jul 2022)

Rasputin said:


> Bitcoin mining operations will now have to disclose their energy use and prominently display information online about their environmental and climate impact.  I think a lot of people will be surprised how much energy is needed to produce nothing.


Criminals won't mind..


----------



## tecate (1 Jul 2022)

Firefly said:


> Criminals won't mind..


 You mean the multiple publicly listed companies that have made multi-million dollar investments in bitcoin mining infrastructure? I don't think they'll mind providing that info, no.


----------



## Firefly (1 Jul 2022)

tecate said:


> And lets not mention the ability of Bitcoin mining to reduce c02 emissions by making a productive use out of flared gas on remote oilfields. Or the erratic renewable wind/solar projects that can be subsidised by co-locating a Bitcoin mining farm to use that excess energy that's so often produced when the grid doesn't need it.


Sounds promising, but will it be enough to meet more than the energy usage of the entire country of Argentina?


----------



## tecate (1 Jul 2022)

Firefly said:


> Sounds promising, but will it be enough to meet more than the energy usage of the entire country of Argentina?


lol...and how many countries worth of energy is squandered at power plants every day of the week, Firefly? Lets not report on that - better that its squandered than those pesky crypto degens getting their hands on it.
Bitcoin miners will lose their shirts if they can't capture the cheapest energy on the planet. With fossil fuels having been hiked up in price over recent months, that drives more and more miners towards renewables - in an industry that was already much greener than any other user of energy.  But why should we dwell on those little details, right?


----------



## Firefly (1 Jul 2022)

tecate said:


> Bitcoin miners will lose their shirts if they can't capture the cheapest energy on the planet. With fossil fuels having been hiked up in price over recent months, that drives more and more miners towards renewables - in _an industry that was already much greener than any other user of energy_.


Can you provide a source for this please?


----------



## tecate (1 Jul 2022)

Firefly said:


> Can you provide a source for this please?











						Q1 Bitcoin Mining Council Survey Confirms Year on Year Improvements in Sustainable Power Mix and Technological Efficiency - Bitcoin Mining Council
					






					bitcoinminingcouncil.com
				













						It Is Time To Turn The Tables On The Bitcoin Environmental Debate
					

Bitcoin’s infamous energy criticism is misguided as mounting research shows the exact opposite of those claims are true.




					bitcoinmagazine.com


----------



## DazedInPontoon (1 Jul 2022)

letitroll said:


> . Eventually you just run out of the gullible.


I disagree with the sentiment of your comment that the cryto market requires only 'the gullible" to exist, but aside from that even the statement is false, "people born yesterday" are a renewable resource.


----------



## tecate (1 Jul 2022)

DazedInPontoon said:


> I disagree with the sentiment of your comment that the cryto market requires only 'the gullible" to exist, but aside from that even the statement is false, "people born yesterday" are a renewable resource.


For sure. Digital natives in the proper sense (unlike anyone who participates on this board) are all that are coming after us. And in many ways, they will interact with crypto without actively pursuing crypto - via GameFi, NFTs and the Metaverse, etc. - to the point where a tokenised world is second nature (which it certainly isn't to anyone participating on this board).

I don't think that some participants to this discussion want to recognise that within the sector, plenty welcome the clearing out of bad actors and bad practices. It's an error to tar and feather the complete sector based on the worst cases. There are genuine folks actively working within this industry. It will be driven forward and whilst the backdrop to this bear market has new challenges that may leave crypto peeps walking on broken glass for a time, the builders in this space will do what they did last bear market - and continue to develop projects towards greater use case.


----------



## Duke of Marmalade (1 Jul 2022)

> I find this EU response all a bit disingenuous and counterproductive.  If they think bitcoin is *utterly worthless* as the Chinese (and I ) do, just say so and launch an educational campaign targeted at those under 35s who see it as the asset of choice.  Maybe even ban it.  But this trying to attack it by making it fit some KYC regs or by outing its carbon footprint is all such hypocritical waste of space - in fact it gives it credibility. MiCA indeed.  What about a MIPS - Markets in Ponzi Schemes.





> Bitcoin has a price because some folk think there will be a massive killing to be had.  For the vast majority of these FOMO folk a bit of KYC or a large carbon footprint doesn't matter a fig.


----------



## tecate (1 Jul 2022)

I agree with  comrade marmalade ( - second time today, this is weird)....please do ban Bitcoin in Europe and launch an "educational campaign" in line with the thinking of the CCP. (And I kid you not - the CCP has launched an "educational campaign" - unfortunately, I can't find a link to it right now).


----------



## Brendan Burgess (1 Jul 2022)

DazedInPontoon said:


> "people born yesterday" are a renewable resource.



That is the bit where I was going wrong in my analysis. I thought that there was a limited supply. 

Brendan


----------



## DazedInPontoon (1 Jul 2022)

I think it's around 180k people globally turn 18 (or whatever age you consider 'coming of age') every *day*. Of the number coming of age, there's a certain amount that will be interested in crypto. I don't expect this to change, even if the percentage of those people is higher in bull markets than it is in crypto-winter.

On the other side of it, how many are leaving the crypto demographic. Well since the demographic is typically young we can assume the number leaving via death or illness is quite low. Some will leave for other reasons they'll get bored, or have a bad experience or whatever. But I expect the net gain to continue.

I consider this a part of where I've been going right in my analysis. I liken it to how the video gamer demographic grew gradually over decades to the extent that the industry now dwarves the movie/TV/music industries. It wasn't because people over 25 started playing games en mass, they were never going to. It was a matter of waiting until their whole generation got replaced by gamers.


----------



## tecate (1 Jul 2022)

And on top of all of that, the assumption is being made by those on the 'crypto will fail' side of the discussion that the only interest in Bitcoin/crypto is 'number go up'. I'm currently travelling in Latin America - and checked in to an Airbnb earlier in the week where the host - an eCommerce professional - takes payment in Bitcoin for services he offers to clients worldwide. Comrade marmalade's friends at the Chinese Politburo must be winning in their fight against Bitcoin though - because when it came to Chinese clients, it seems they favoured USDT. Who knew? (you might want to raise this at the next CCP Ard Fheis Duke - as USDT is also against the rules).

The previous week, I paid some legal fees in Bitcoin in this region.

Having received payment intermittently in crypto over recent years, I - alongside 250 other souls that contract to the same company - now receive monthly payments in Bitcoin. Whilst admittedly we're still at an early stage in getting crypto into the hands of the Latin masses, in my circle out here, everyone has some positive touchpoint or other with digital currency. Meanwhile, Nubank - a Latin take on Revolut - has just enabled Bitcoin buy/sell/hold facility for its 50 million customers. But there's nothing to see here at all.


----------



## Duke of Marmalade (1 Jul 2022)

It must be a very exciting life to be on a bitcoin salary or contract.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney (1 Jul 2022)

I read today in the FT that the SEC has prevented some Bitcoin Trust, Grayscale apparently $40bn valuation, in the US becoming an EFT for the second time , citing " the lack of client protection and transparency " to paraphrase.

If Bitcoin or its participants think that its revolutionary why are they asking for it to be traded along side stocks.

Apparently Grayscale has thrown the teddy out of the pram saying that its " another attack on an independent financial product " but who wants to like the other financial products.

The analysis by the FT was stark, saying in  brief " crypto has a liquidity issue and the mask of uniqueness is melting " .

A few pages later another story says that crypto collapsing isn't going to cause "contagion " that would effect the main financial system as most central banks view the recent " crypto collapse " as a natural occurrence of a bubble asset and they had already put controls in place many years ago.

So, looks like it's not revolutionary and won't bring down the financial system, based on todays FT

Today's FT also came a magazine and one story of someone who lost 70k in crypto has decided to not invest in it again as his losses were equal to his annual salary.


----------



## DazedInPontoon (1 Jul 2022)

Paul O Mahoney said:


> If Bitcoin or its participants think


Bitcoin holds no opinion at all since it's just software, but as one of the participants I can say I would like it to be trade-able in as many ways as possible. The reasons cited for wanting a bitcoin ETF are generally twofold, firstly some people want exposure to it but do not want to hold it directly, secondly certain regulatory frameworks make it difficult to hold bitcoin directly such as tax advantaged pension accounts or wealth managers investing on behalf of their clients.

There are actually plenty of bitcoin participants who are indifferent or even against vehicles like the ETF because it introduces a counter party which is against the spirit of it.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney (1 Jul 2022)

DazedInPontoon said:


> Bitcoin holds no opinion at all since it's just software, but as one of the participants I can say I would like it to be trade-able in as many ways as possible. The reasons cited for wanting a bitcoin ETF are generally twofold, firstly some people want exposure to it but do not want to hold it directly, secondly certain regulatory frameworks make it difficult to hold bitcoin directly such as tax advantaged pension accounts or wealth managers investing on behalf of their clients.
> 
> There are actually plenty of bitcoin participants who are indifferent or even against vehicles like the ETF because it introduces a counter party which is against the spirit of it.


I would counter a say Bitcoin holds nothing. It's not an asset of any description and most including the Chinese agree.

I fear the revolution is over and the rebuilding is going to take time.

Can you shed light on the analysis that all cryptos are facing liquidity issues,  or is this another " slight " against them. Most are now suffering huge losses and this is apparently going to continue.

Central Banks , the SEC seem to think its holding a pair of 2s while the cards indicate a royal flush is on the table, waiting for the all in and there's no 2s on the flop.


----------



## DazedInPontoon (1 Jul 2022)

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Can you shed light on the analysis that all cryptos are facing liquidity issues,  or is this another " slight " against them.


I don't even know what it means for a cryptocurrency like bitcoin to face a liquidity issue?

What are facing liquidity issues are *companies*, some of them were acting like banks taking deposits from customers, offering them returns and then attempting to profit by using the funds to earn even more than they promised to pay out - either by loaning it out at higher rates or by "investing" it in what were typically ventures in other crypto companies. This is all a complete ****show and it's unwinding day by day. Some of these companies were using bitcoin as collateral and we're thus getting forced selling of that as it all unwinds, which drives down the bitcoin price.

There's a fairly in-depth account by someone who knows their stuff here if you want a deeper read: https://blog.bitmex.com/number-three/


Paul O Mahoney said:


> Most are now suffering huge losses and this is apparently going to continue.


Looks like it will for these companies in the short term. Celsius and the 3AC hedge fund seem to be screwed, Block-fi might be in trouble. Voyager Digital is another one that just today has frozen withdrawals.


Paul O Mahoney said:


> Central Banks , the SEC seem to think its holding a pair of 2s while the cards indicate a royal flush is on the table, waiting for the all in and there's no 2s on the flop.


You've lost me on this poker analogy I'm afraid.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney (2 Jul 2022)

DazedInPontoon said:


> I don't even know what it means for a cryptocurrency like bitcoin to face a liquidity issue?
> 
> What are facing liquidity issues are *companies*, some of them were acting like banks taking deposits from customers, offering them returns and then attempting to profit by using the funds to earn even more than they promised to pay out - either by loaning it out at higher rates or by "investing" it in what were typically ventures in other crypto companies. This is all a complete ****show and it's unwinding day by day. Some of these companies were using bitcoin as collateral and we're thus getting forced selling of that as it all unwinds, which drives down the bitcoin price.
> 
> ...


And you cannot see the connection that " companies " that are primarily crypto backed not being able to raise funding as a non issue?

Most of these companies have trading arms that essentially dictate the price of bitcoin et al, if Bitcoin etc cannot be traded how can it be traded or indeed valued?

When there are more questions than answers about anything it should indicate that there's something wrong.

All cryptos seem to show their value in real currency,  why is that? If this was truly a revolutionary currency it would stand on it's own value and be used to buy stuff.....but it doesn't do that,  it's a bubble with nothing to shore it up except hype and lies.

It also suffers from snowflake mentality it can't be questioned without igniting its hair in all places.

Companies are declared " insolvent " when its net liabilities are greater than its assets and since Crypto isn't an asset in any form the liability section of its balance sheet represents the losses that people will suffer.

I personally can't wait for a discovery channel series " Crypto Rush" where the "mining" Bitcoin, is someone is at a desk but just didn't make the cut, and him blaming his parents, for not preparing him for the reality of nonsense.

For a revolutionary currency it really hasn't changed anything and won't. 

Listening to claptrap and diatribe about its " potential " is now tiresome and classic rabbit hole hyperbole.


----------



## tecate (2 Jul 2022)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> It must be a very exciting life to be on a bitcoin salary or contract.


DCAing into BTC every month and starting that process in the bear market? You'll get no complaints from me Duke - but if you're more comfortable with Yuan, you should stick with that.



Paul O Mahoney said:


> I would counter a say Bitcoin holds nothing. It's not an asset of any description and most* including the Chinese* agree.


Most who? Governments and central bankers? Good luck!
@Duke - you'll have a travelling companion for the CCP shindig in Beijing - well done.  



Paul O Mahoney said:


> I fear the revolution is over and the rebuilding is going to take time.


What revolution precisely is it that you have in mind? You mean choice? lol



Paul O Mahoney said:


> Can you shed light on the analysis that all cryptos are facing liquidity issues,  or is this another " slight " against them. Most are now suffering huge losses and this is apparently going to continue.


Hardly makes sense to broaden discussion here to "all cryptos". However, just so that you're aware Bitcoin is not facing any "liquidity crisis". Centralized third party entities - who have leveraged up to the gills - have a liquidity crisis. Those positions are being unwound right now. There are no bailouts in crypto - and so, the unwind will be swift (and painful for those involved). This process hurts but it cures. I believe that you'll see better risk management within the ecosystem going forward.



Paul O Mahoney said:


> And you cannot see the connection that " companies " that are primarily crypto backed not being able to raise funding as a non issue?


It's far from ideal but in no way does it tarnish the fundamentals of Bitcoin itself. If they're illiquid and insolvent, they'll be cleared out pretty rapidly. This is not the fiat system - there are no bailouts or buyers of last resort. It's not the Japanese Yen where the Japs are getting high on their own supply (buying over 50% of their own bonds, with the currency having tanked by 35%).



Paul O Mahoney said:


> When there are more questions than answers about anything it should indicate that there's something wrong.


When cause for complaint is all that the objective is and the last thing that is sought are answers, enough said.



Paul O Mahoney said:


> All cryptos seem to show their value in real currency,  why is that?


wtf are you talking about Paul? You want to seek out an exchange rate for Bitcoin, Yen, Euro to USD, you can. That's up you to you. If what you're asking is why isn't Bitcoin a unit of account? - because it doesn't put a gun to people's heads and coerce them into using it- as happens with failing fiat currencies. However, it is there as a choice should anyone want to use it rather than be forced to use it.




Paul O Mahoney said:


> If this was truly a revolutionary currency it would stand on it's own value and be used to buy stuff.....but it doesn't do that


Framing a certain narrative, I see. There is only one person over the course of 5 years of discussion here who has described Bitcoin as a "revolutionary currency" here. It doesn't have to be a unit of account to be successful.




Paul O Mahoney said:


> it's a bubble with nothing to shore it up except hype and lies.


lol - ok, Paul - so tell me - it's done for, right? Bitcoin is dead, right? That's what you're saying?
Bitcoin's fundamentals are intact - regardless what detractors like you or leveraged traders say or do.




Paul O Mahoney said:


> It also suffers from snowflake mentality it can't be questioned without igniting its hair in all places.


I think you'll find it lacks a better class of critic.  The current batch don't cut the mustard.




Paul O Mahoney said:


> Companies are declared " insolvent " when its net liabilities are greater than its assets and since Crypto isn't an asset in any form the liability section of its balance sheet represents the losses that people will suffer.


You can keep howling into the night that 'cryptocurrencies are not assets' all you want Paul. They've been recognized as such by a whole host of recognized entities. Other than that, what you seem to be saying is that if you either 'trade' or invest in a digital asset, you could realise a gain or a loss upon selling the asset. Very informative.



Paul O Mahoney said:


> I personally can't wait for a discovery channel series " Crypto Rush" where the "mining" Bitcoin, is someone is at a desk but just didn't make the cut, and him blaming his parents, for not preparing him for the reality of nonsense.


Yeah, this seems to be the naysayers wet dream. I suppose if there was such a discovery channel series on folks that had invested in tech stocks over the last few months and lost 80%, that wouldn't get your rocks off at all, right? And we wouldn't be hoping that they'd be squealing for mercy, right? lol




Paul O Mahoney said:


> For a revolutionary currency it really hasn't changed anything and won't.



Yeah, mention number 4 of "revolutionary currency" - definitely not trying to frame a certain narrative. Bitcoin is a tool grounded in tech with  monetary and financial implications. You want to use it - do. You don't fine (and now move along). It doesn't give a fiddlers what you think.



Paul O Mahoney said:


> Listening to claptrap and diatribe about its " potential " is now tiresome and classic rabbit hole hyperbole.


You should really get together with Paul 'fax machine' Krugman. He certainly had a way with mouthing off about something that he had no idea about - and that he was arrogant enough to 'call' before its potential had even started to be realised. I would respect someone saying that they think it's _unlikely_ that there will be any further potential but people who speak arrogantly in absolutes lack intelligence - and are not entitled to that respect.

Other than that, Paul - don't feel that anyone is keeping you if it's all too tiresome for you.


----------



## tecate (2 Jul 2022)

Paul O Mahoney said:


> I read today in the FT that the SEC has prevented some Bitcoin Trust, Grayscale apparently $40bn valuation, in the US becoming an EFT for the second time , citing " the lack of client protection and transparency " to paraphrase.


Let me help you with that. (Goldman) Gary Gensler as Chair of the SEC is holding crypto hostage simply because he wants to toe the line set by Liz Warren in her anti-crypto crusade - and get the Treasury Secretary gig in return, quid pro quo. And that is the reason why he isn't protecting investors (which is precisely what the SECs role is supposed to be). He won't approve a spot Bitcoin product but get this - he's happy to approve a futures product. You know why? because his former Wall Street chums can clock up the fees on rolling over futures contracts.

It's the very same rationale why he won't clarify for crypto startups and projects what is a commodity and what is a security! He says that its clear which is which  but he/they will refuse to tell you - but they'll look to sue you later - knowing that most entities can't spend the time or money on that. He says that the SECs door is open - and when anyone turns up, they're turned away ( as happened with Coinbase and others).
Meanwhile, the SEC has bitten off more than it can chew in suing Ripple - and it looks like it will have its ass handed to it - in a case that unearths blatant corruption.



Paul O Mahoney said:


> If Bitcoin or its participants think that its revolutionary why are they asking for it to be traded along side stocks.



There's that 'revolutionary' word again. I believe that's mention no. 6.

Participants in the conventional markets want access to crypto - and still be compliant with the spaghetti junction of regulatory rules that are in place - and remain compliant within that world. An ETF is the ideal product for them to access Bitcoin. There are different stakeholders within Bitcoin - with differing needs.



Paul O Mahoney said:


> Apparently Grayscale has thrown the teddy out of the pram saying that its " another attack on an independent financial product " but who wants to like the other financial products.


Grayscale probably has no choice but to sue Goldman Gary and the SEC right now - or be sued in turn by investors - who are caught up in a Trust-based product that has traded at a premium to spot price and more recently at a large discount to spot price. Interestingly, if the SEC had done its job and approved a spot ETF, the likes of Three Arrows Capital (3AC) wouldn't have gotten caught up with the cash n carry arbitrage trade on Grayscale (not that I have any sympathy for 3AC either).



Paul O Mahoney said:


> The analysis by the FT was stark, saying in  brief " crypto has a liquidity issue and the mask of uniqueness is melting " .



Close but no cigar. Crypto lenders and hedge funds that have gorged on leverage are having their asses handed to them (with collateral damage for those caught up with them too - and for the market as a whole as far as price action is concerned). There are no bailouts in crypto - Mr Market is already unwinding this sh{tshow  There may be buyouts but so long as there are no bailouts, then the pain getting served out will cure this ill. Bitcoin's fundamentals remain intact - and unchanged by this greed-induced nonsense.



Paul O Mahoney said:


> A few pages later another story says that crypto collapsing isn't going to cause "contagion " that would effect the main financial system as most central banks view the recent " crypto collapse " as a natural occurrence of a bubble asset and they had already put controls in place many years ago.


Crypto as it stands today is not of a size for anyone to be concerned about contagion.



Paul O Mahoney said:


> So, looks like it's not revolutionary and won't bring down the financial system, based on todays FT


Winner winner, chicken dinner! Mention no. 7 for "revolutionary". Who said anything about bringing down the financial system? There are 5 years worth of discussions on the subject here on AAM. Provide a link to anyone who ever suggested they wanted to 'bring down the financial system'? You'll be at a loss (in the same way as as you were at a loss when you suggested I was lying - and couldn't back that up either).



Paul O Mahoney said:


> Today's FT also came a magazine and one story of someone who lost 70k in crypto has decided to not invest in it again as his losses were equal to his annual salary.


If their audience is the likes of you ( which invariably it is), that's precisely what they will put in front of you because you will lap it up. But it would be a cold day in hell before they would run a similar article on someone who lost 70k in tech stocks in the past 6 months and has decided not to invest in them again as their losses were equal to their annual salary.


----------



## bish123 (2 Jul 2022)

Personal opinion- I am staying out of revolution and rebellion for now. Will look into it once EU regulations are in place. Guess what, traditional currency is accepted everywhere in the world, the last time I checked.


----------



## tecate (2 Jul 2022)

bish123 said:


> Personal opinion- I am staying out of revolution and rebellion for now. Will look into it once EU regulations are in place


It's not a case of revolution or rebellion. It's simply software - and a tool with a different set of characteristics and features than what's already in the toolbox. If anyone doesn't have a use case for it, then of course - don't use it. Be aware of what it brings to the table and use it if circumstances change and a need arises.



bish123 said:


> Guess what, traditional currency is accepted everywhere in the world, the last time I checked.


And yet, if you move 100 euro of value from Ireland to a developing country, will it be worth 100 euro on arrival? Last year, I contracted to a North American company and the only way for them to effect payment was through a third party financial services company that took the equivalent of a weeks pay over the course of the year (without even having to do an fx conversion). Deliberately designed-in friction in the system can see to it that people are forced to use intermediaries that erode value.
Will capital controls mean that it will be automatically converted to the local instable 'traditional currency'? How quickly will that 'traditional currency' devalue? Will the receiving bank lock your money up in accordance with government rules pending bureaucratic investigation of source of funds or failure to follow some ridiculous procedure or other to "register" that money with the state (and from experience, we could still be talking about relatively small amounts of money)? If you choose to have your 'traditional currency' accepted via visa/mastercard in a developing country, will a vendor turn round to you and say that I'll accept your payment but I'm charging you an additional 5% (happens all the time).
The more obvious need starts in the developing world - utility isn't as obvious in the developed world - but to your point on a currency being "accepted everywhere", it will as its network effect keeps on growing and just like folks have their banking app and paypal app, they have something like muun wallet alongside that.


----------



## tecate (7 Jul 2022)

tecate on Saturday said:


> Goldman Gary Gensler as Chair of the SEC is *holding crypto hostage* simply because he wants to toe the line set by Liz Warren in her anti-crypto crusade - and get the Treasury Secretary gig in return, quid pro quo.





WSJ on Wednesday said:


> [Gary Gensler is] *taking investors hostage *



Wall Street Journal: Gary Gensler's Bitcoin Regulation Grab


----------



## Kitten (25 Aug 2022)

tecate said:


> Meanwhile, the SEC has bitten off more than it can chew in suing Ripple - and it looks like it will have its ass handed to it - in a case that unearths blatant corruption.


@Tectate.. i have been following this case really closely over the past 18 months and it fascinates me the lengths GG / SEC goes to to delay the outcome and hold back on the Hinman emails despite being ordered 3 times now by a judge to disclose them to Ripple.  I believe Ripple are close to a settlement which will give regularatory clarity to Ripple and their native token. Ripple is growing at speed and 95% of their business is outside the US.  ODL corridors are being added daily, it is a very exciting time and fascinating to watch. The outcome of this case is being watched very closely and on settlement / Ripple win when US exchanges relist there may well be significant institutional investment and retail FOMO into the market.  Naturally, they could of course lose and it all goes to zero ...nature of crypto ....I love it


----------



## tecate (25 Aug 2022)

@Kitten : I agree - it's very interesting to watch.  Everyone knows that the SEC is having its ass handed to it in this case. The very people that it purports to protect have joined a group in their 10s of thousands and are recognised as 'friends of the court'. They've made it clear that rather than protect them, the SEC has done the opposite. There's never been a case like this in that respect.

And even though we all know its having its ass handed to it, the worst that will happen for the SEC is that they will agree to settle. Justice delayed is justice denied. Ripple has already suffered because of this case. It got further than 99% of others in that it could afford to take the SEC on - but that doesn't mean to say there hasn't been damage. Others have simply had to take the beating as they couldn't afford to take them on. 

If Ripple stayed the distance and lets say they got the win, then they're still only damaging themselves all the while - as adoption suffers.  The type of customer they're working with won't and can't touch them with a barge pole within the US while this nonsense is going on. And they can win - and the first thing the SEC will do is appeal - so then they're into another few years of process.


----------



## Kitten (25 Aug 2022)

tecate said:


> @Kitten : I agree - it's very interesting to watch.  Everyone knows that the SEC is having its ass handed to it in this case. The very people that it purports to protect have joined a group in their 10s of thousands and are recognised as 'friends of the court'. They've made it clear that rather than protect them, the SEC has done the opposite. There's never been a case like this in that respect.
> 
> And even though we all know its having its ass handed to it, the worst that will happen for the SEC is that they will agree to settle. Justice delayed is justice denied. Ripple has already suffered because of this case. It got further than 99% of others in that it could afford to take the SEC on - but that doesn't mean to say there hasn't been damage. Others have simply had to take the beating as they couldn't afford to take them on.
> 
> If Ripple stayed the distance and lets say they got the win, then they're still only damaging themselves all the while - as adoption suffers.  The type of customer they're working with won't and can't touch them with a barge pole within the US while this nonsense is going on. And they can win - and the first thing the SEC will do is appeal - so then they're into another few years of process.


Brad Garlinghouse is impressive and has a slew of excellent global relationships well in place, he is highly respected and David Schwartz doesn't even need mentioning. If you look at the ripple board, it is a powerful set of people. They know what they are doing, i believe once the case settles there will be a domino effect of key moves and partnerships that will see lightening fast adoption across the globe for cross border and ODL. It's already happening.  The SEC tried to remove John Deatons amici status from the court but was denied. All BG wants is clarity, he may get that with a settlement but it will be done in such a way that it won't be seen as damaging to the dare I say 'reputation' of the SEC.  Also Judge Netburn seems to be very wise to what has gone on and appears to really be tiring of the SEC tactics. She ripped them apart at the last hearing which the public could dial into.  Dying to see the outcome, would love a clear win for Ripple but i think a settlement with clarity will suffice. US can't afford Ripple to move out of the States, it is already way behind on digital assets.


----------



## tecate (25 Aug 2022)

This Forbes article was just published. I don't think this headline could make it any clearer!










						Gary Gensler: Resign
					

The SEC needs a leader who provides transparency, applies the law as written, and honors the Constitution.




					www.forbes.com


----------



## Kitten (25 Aug 2022)

tecate said:


> This Forbes article was just published. I don't think this headline could make it any clearer!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Was literally just reading it.....pretty clear cut...it is actually criminal how he has behaved


----------

