# Proposed Pardon for Irish Army deserters



## STEINER (3 Jul 2011)

I see on the RTE news there is a small campaign on to have a number of Irish army deserters pardoned more or less because they joined the British army or Americans or French and fought against the Nazis in WW2. While it was great courage to fight against Nazism, and I respect their sacrifices, I don't think they should be pardoned by Ireland for deserting the Irish army.  I think that the Irish army officers who deserted should not have been treated more favourably than the enlisted men who deserted also.  Some of these soldiers are still living, and as I said I respect their motives and sacrifices, but I just don't see it as being right to officially pardon them for desertion.


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## Crugers (4 Jul 2011)

IIRC - there was a lot of 'em going around saying "pardon" a few years ago and it cost the State €300m +
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Army_deafness_claims
Apologies for going off topic


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## Sunny (4 Jul 2011)

STEINER said:


> I see on the RTE news there is a small campaign on to have a number of Irish army deserters pardoned more or less because they joined the British army or Americans or French and fought against the Nazis in WW2. While it was great courage to fight against Nazism, and I respect their sacrifices, I don't think they should be pardoned by Ireland for deserting the Irish army. I think that the Irish army officers who deserted should not have been treated more favourably than the enlisted men who deserted also. Some of these soldiers are still living, and as I said I respect their motives and sacrifices, but I just don't see it as being right to officially pardon them for desertion.


 
I honestly don't understand this attitude. It sickens me that the brave Irishmen who went off to fight during the the World Wars are still not being properly honoured to this day. This shouldn't even be up for discussion. It should have been done decades ago. They could have stayed here in our nice neutral armed forces polishing their shoes but instead of that they went off to fight against an enemy that would have thought nothing about invading Ireland if it suited them. And we thank them by stigmatising them and their families for decades. 

What do people think is going to happen if we pardon them? Every soldier down in the Curragh will simply go walk about?


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## Purple (4 Jul 2011)

Agree completely Sunny. We have made a virtue of hiding behind the UK and America since independence.


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## johnwilliams (4 Jul 2011)

for me desertion is running away from war
these guys volunteered to go to war and risk death (cowards they were not)
they should be pardoned
they may have got unofficial off the books approval to join 
like the sweds who went to fight with the finns against the russians back in 39-41


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## jhegarty (4 Jul 2011)

Sunny said:


> I honestly don't understand this attitude. It sickens me that the brave Irishmen who went off to fight during the the World Wars are still not being properly honoured to this day. This shouldn't even be up for discussion. It should have been done decades ago. They could have stayed here in our nice neutral armed forces polishing their shoes but instead of that they went off to fight against an enemy that would have thought nothing about invading Ireland if it suited them. And we thank them by stigmatising them and their families for decades.
> 
> What do people think is going to happen if we pardon them? Every soldier down in the Curragh will simply go walk about?



That's fine now 60 years later with a history book in your hand.

At the time they deserted Ireland when there was plans from both sides to invade us. They abandoned their posts during the biggest threat to Ireland since the Civil war.


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## Purple (4 Jul 2011)

johnwilliams said:


> for me desertion is running away from war
> these guys volunteered to go to war and risk death (cowards they were not)
> they should be pardoned
> they may have got unofficial off the books approval to join
> like the sweds who went to fight with the finns against the russians back in 39-41



The Finnish-Russian war is really very interesting as it was unfinished business dating back to the 1800’s and the Finnish Civil War.
The intervention by Swedish troops is hardly surprising Finland had been part of The Kingdom of Sweden, not to mention that Sweden had invaded Russia and very nearly conquered St. Petersburg when Catherine the Great was on the throne.


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## Sunny (4 Jul 2011)

jhegarty said:


> That's fine now 60 years later with a history book in your hand.
> 
> At the time they deserted Ireland when there was plans from both sides to invade us. They abandoned their posts during the biggest threat to Ireland since the Civil war.


 
Soldiers from all over Europe left beaten armies to fight for the Allies. Should they have stayed in their homelands? Do they deserve to be called cowards and deserters?

Britain has pardoned deserters from their army but we can't pardon ours because they fought instead of sitting on their arses waiting for an invasion to happen. They were braver than our Government of the time.  Well I have no problem with granting them a pardon just like I have no problem wearing a poppy to commenerate the sacrifices made by so many.


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## Purple (4 Jul 2011)

jhegarty said:


> That's fine now 60 years later with a history book in your hand.
> 
> At the time they deserted Ireland when there was plans from both sides to invade us. They abandoned their posts during the biggest threat to Ireland since the Civil war.



There is no equivalence politically, militarily or morally between the Allied and the Axis powers. There’s none now and there was none then. Germany planned to utterly destroy this country. Britain and America had vague plans to seize strategic naval ports. It was one of the few wars where one side could be so clearly identified as the “bad guys” and the other as the “good guys”.


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## csirl (4 Jul 2011)

I'm not into restrospective revisionist history. What happened has happened - it is fact. I dont think pardoning people will change what is already done and dusted & I dont believe anyone is languishing in jail due to doing this 60 years ago. With the hindsight of time and knowing the history, people are well able to make their own minds up.


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## Yorrick (4 Jul 2011)

This is more of the "touchy touchy its all in the past rubbish"
As posters corrrectly stated Ireland was at risk of invasion itself either by the British or the by the Germans ( aided by the anti British I.R.A.)
Of course doing your duty at home may not have been so exciting for young men as fighting overseas but that is not the point. Thousands stayed at home and served the country.
Deserters made their choice and let them pay the price. Whether they went to Berlin or London it soes not matter. They can be recognised by whichever army they joined but if at a time of risk to your own country you desert you can't really expect to be honoured for your desertion.
There actions must be judged by the time they committed the action not 60 years later.
Spain Portugal Switzerland all remained neutral. So did the U.S until attacked at Pearl Harbour. It is readily acknowledged now that Ireland was very cooperative with the Allies except to take part in military action.

And as for posters who fail to acknowledge the efforts of our own Defence Forces I'm sure they are they type who would be the first out to welcome any invasion.


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## Purple (4 Jul 2011)

Yorrick said:


> This is more of the "touchy touchy its all in the past rubbish"
> As posters corrrectly stated Ireland was at risk of invasion itself either by the British or the by the Germans ( aided by the anti British I.R.A.)
> Of course doing your duty at home may not have been so exciting for young men as fighting overseas but that is not the point. Thousands stayed at home and served the country.
> Deserters made their choice and let them pay the price. Whether they went to Berlin or London it soes not matter. They can be recognised by whichever army they joined but if at a time of risk to your own country you desert you can't really expect to be honoured for your desertion.
> ...


Those that joined the Allies were the ones that did most to allay the risks faced by this country. The position taken by the IRA was very understandable just as it was utterly misguided and wrong. The real risk we faced was that Britain would fall and we’d be next or that Germany would invade as a stepping stone into Britain. 
To suggest that there was no difference between joining the Allies and joining the Axis powers is utter nonsense.


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## Purple (4 Jul 2011)

Yorrick said:


> And as for posters who fail to acknowledge the efforts of our own Defence Forces I'm sure they are the type who would be the first out to welcome any invasion.


 Nobody was planning a general invasion of Ireland. The Allies had a plan in place to cease strategic ports if necessary, i.e. if there was an imminent threat that the Germans were about to do the same thing, and the Germans intended to carpet bomb our population centres and reduce the country to a subsistence agrarian state. We had some chance of a token resistance if our ports were ceased but we could have done nothing at all to stop a air campaign.
The Allies wanted us to stay neutral as they didn’t have the resources to equip our army, which was hopelessly underequipped and badly trained (a problem that persisted into the 1970’s) or open another front which could only be accessed by sea from Britain. A friendly but neutral Ireland was what they wanted and what they got.


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## Sunny (4 Jul 2011)

csirl said:


> I'm not into restrospective revisionist history. What happened has happened - it is fact. I dont think pardoning people will change what is already done and dusted & I dont believe anyone is languishing in jail due to doing this 60 years ago. With the hindsight of time and knowing the history, people are well able to make their own minds up.


 
So if your father or grandfather had died fighting the Germans, you wouldn't mind that the State still considers them traitors? You wouldn't be angry that those that returned home were treated like pariahs?


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## Purple (4 Jul 2011)

BTW, the British plan to invade Ireland was called "Plan W" and it was drawn up by the British Government with the full cooperation of the Irish Government. It was only to be put into effect if the Germans invaded first. British troops would have crossed the border from Northern Ireland but only after being invited to do so by Dev. They would have retained operational control of their own troops. 
The Germans had a plan called Operation Green (Unternehmen Grün) which was part of Operation Sea lion, their invasion plan of Britain, but was not considered to ever have been a solid plan and was intended more as a feint.


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## Sunny (4 Jul 2011)

Yorrick said:


> This is more of the "touchy touchy its all in the past rubbish"
> As posters corrrectly stated Ireland was at risk of invasion itself either by the British or the by the Germans ( aided by the anti British I.R.A.)
> Of course doing your duty at home may not have been so exciting for young men as fighting overseas but that is not the point. Thousands stayed at home and served the country.
> Deserters made their choice and let them pay the price. Whether they went to Berlin or London it soes not matter. They can be recognised by whichever army they joined but if at a time of risk to your own country you desert you can't really expect to be honoured for your desertion.
> ...


 
Yes, they went for the excitement . 

Are you saying that Franco was neutral? He fully intended to join the axis but even Hitler apparently realised the guy was nuts. Franco and Spain were not neutral. Whatever 'help' we gave to the allies, Spain was giving multiples to Germany.

These men did more for this Country and humanity than you or I will ever do. They didn't run away to live on a beach in Australia.


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## The_Banker (4 Jul 2011)

Interesting topic. This reminds me of a story I heard from an old guy who used to drink in a pub I worked in back in the 80s. He was in the LDF during WWII and he and his group were given a specific task during the early days of WWII when invasion looked imminent. 
They were based in Fort Camden just outside Crosshaven and each morning they were given saws and pots of black paint. They had to go into the wood, cut down trees and then take them back to Fort Camden where the would be painted black and pointed out to sea.
The theory was that any foreign submarine (German or British) who were looking at Irish coastal sea defences from periscopes would think that the area was heavily fortified! 

If Germany invaded Ireland during the war then we would have been wiped out. Any “terrorist” attack from Irish people (be it the IRA or any other force who might be capable) would be met with civilian reprisals that would make the Black & Tans look like pussy cats.

Likewise I think it is unfair to say that the British/Americans planned to ‘just’ take Irish ports rather than a fully fledged invasion. If they retook the treaty ports then they would have to take the rest of the country also so as to stop partisan attacks. 
One of DeValera’s biggest successes (in his whole career) was getting the treaty ports back as part of the settlement at the conclusion of the Economic War in 1938. If he didn’t get those back then there would have been no way Ireland could have stayed out of the war. He was smart enough to recognise that in 1938 but it seemed the British were not.


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## csirl (4 Jul 2011)

Sunny said:


> So if your father or grandfather had died fighting the Germans, you wouldn't mind that the State still considers them traitors? You wouldn't be angry that those that returned home were treated like pariahs?


 
I am not aware of the Irish State casting public judgement on the reasons why these, or any army deserters, left or labelling them as traitors (and to be honest, at the time they deserted, the Irish Army would not have known where they went). I dont know how you can make the connection that someone who deserts is automatically a traitor - to desert means to leave without giving notice or asking permission - which is what these people did. People desert armies for many reasons, in times of peace as well as times of war. And being a deserter is not a comment on bravery. In WWII, those German soldiers who deserted because they objected to committing attrocities were very brave.


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## Purple (4 Jul 2011)

The Banker, if you read the link I posted above you will see that the planned invasion by the British was only to happen if they were invited in by our government. The bluster from Churchill was just that; bluster, just as the bluster from our Chargé d'Affaires in Berlin, William Warnock was the same.


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## Sunny (4 Jul 2011)

csirl said:


> I am not aware of the Irish State casting public judgement on the reasons why these, or any army deserters, left or labelling them as traitors (and to be honest, at the time they deserted, the Irish Army would not have known where they went). I dont know how you can make the connection that someone who deserts is automatically a traitor - to desert means to leave without giving notice or asking permission - which is what these people did. People desert armies for many reasons, in times of peace as well as times of war. And being a deserter is not a comment on bravery. In WWII, those German soldiers who deserted because they objected to committing attrocities were very brave.


 
Apparently the people who deserted but stayed at home and didn't join the Allied forces were treated differently to those who signed up with the British Army. After the war, a book was circulated to every State Department and Agency with the names of every person who had deserted to go off and fight. They were then banned from State jobs. As far as I know, there were no individual Court Martials or trials. They were collectively punished without giving them a fair hearing. That to me is the State passing judgement.


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## Latrade (4 Jul 2011)

I despair that at a time of raw political and national emotions, a group of people put their lives and status on the line to fight alongside a still fresh "enemy" for a worldwide great good rather than accept local ambivalent status quo and they were not welcomed or seen as heroes. 

I despair even more that a whole new generation with the full benefit of hindsight and facts that only serves to demonstrate the courage of these individuals chose to err on the side of old, antiquated biases and judgements while enjoying the freedom these people risked everything for.


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## Yorrick (5 Jul 2011)

You are a great lad for the despairing. I feel your despair.


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## horusd (5 Jul 2011)

I don't have a huge axe to grind on this one, but assuming these "deserters"  swore an oath of alligieance, didn't they break the oath?  Fair enough they did it to fight a terrible enemy, but even so...


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## oldnick (5 Jul 2011)

oath of allegiance ?
Didnt that New York born half-Cuban guy , Eamon De something-or-other,swear an oath of allegiance in 1927 -or as he described it "an empty formula?". 
This was the guy that offerred condolences to the Nazi German Ambassador on hearing of Hitler's death , by which time everyone knew about the horrors of Nazism.

Those brave men that went out and fought the Nazis whilst their supposed leader was offering condolences to Nazis should have statue raised in their memory.


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## Purple (6 Jul 2011)

oldnick said:


> oath of allegiance ?
> Didnt that New York born half-Cuban guy , Eamon De something-or-other,swear an oath of allegiance in 1927 -or as he described it "an empty formula?".
> This was the guy that offerred condolences to the Nazi German Ambassador on hearing of Hitler's death , by which time everyone knew about the horrors of Nazism.
> 
> Those brave men that went out and fought the Nazis whilst their supposed leader was offering condolences to Nazis should have statue raised in their memory.



It should be noted that Dev failed to do the same when Roosevelt died.


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## Ceist Beag (12 Jun 2012)

Looks like this is finally going to happen this evening, about time too.


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## Sunny (12 Jun 2012)

Great news. Delighted for the families.


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## ajapale (12 Jun 2012)

Did any Irish Soldiers desert and fight for the Germans? or for Finland against the Russians? or for Franco in Spain?


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## micmclo (12 Jun 2012)

edited out


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## Purple (12 Jun 2012)

ajapale said:


> Did any Irish Soldiers desert and fight for the Germans? or for Finland against the Russians? or for Franco in Spain?



I'm sure some did fight in Spain  (on both sides).


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## Leper (13 Jun 2012)

Irish people fought on both sides during the Spanish Civil War. Ironically, they shared the same ship to Lisbon before joining their brigadas. 

I know of six Irishmen who joined WW2 on the side of the Allies. They refused to fight with the Brits and the Yanks hadn't entered the war at that stage so they joined the Red Army and fought on the Russian side. Some of them were never heard of since.

I read on some Irish newspaper five or so years ago about some Russian diplomat presenting medals of campaign to the families of the Irish soldiers.

I think William Joyce (Lord Haw-Haw) summed up the dreamed invasion of Ireland by Mr Hitler when he said "Germany is interested in oil wells not Holy wells . . ." Mr Churchill was less humoured in his summary of the same subject after the war.


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## cork (13 Jun 2012)

jhegarty said:


> They abandoned their posts during the biggest threat to Ireland since the Civil war.



Just a short number of years after the economic war - they abandoned the Irish army.

Could they have simply quit the Irish army at the time?


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