# Management Company asking for fees.



## clareG (8 Sep 2006)

Can anybody advise if a Management Company is obliged to hold an AGM and provide an Income & Expenditure account annualy.  Only into my second year in new apartment and demands are coming in hot an heavy for fees yet no I & E available.
Thanks


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## liteweight (8 Sep 2006)

Yes the Management Company are obliged to hold an Annual General Meeting and to supply you with an audited set of accounts. Are you sure you didn't miss the meeting? They are obliged to send you an invite.


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## Lauren (8 Sep 2006)

Ask to see the minutes of the last and the accounts (if they exist!)


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## clareG (8 Sep 2006)

I got no notification except the bill plus 2 reminders and a neighbour has been threatened with legal action.  I might ask Company's Reg Office if they have submitted returns?


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## kseire (8 Sep 2006)

most management companies would set up a company for an estate and they finances would be managed through this company. furthermore the residents are probably the directors of this company and therefore accounts, mins, agm etc should be all available or submitted to you. 

Some management companies are Terrible though! I had problems with one regarding one of my apartments. We threatened with solicitors etc and it all came to light that they took 5K from the account as "Additional Sundries".

Needless to say they got sued and have now ceased trading.


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## clareG (8 Sep 2006)

Don't know, but we haven't paid just yet.


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## homeowner (8 Sep 2006)

Your management company has around 8 months after end of financial year to submit the accounts.  Its possible that they have not been completed for last year yet.  If you find out the name of the management company (not the management agent) its usually "Yourapartmentcomplex LTD" 

On www.cro.ie do a company search to find out when the financial year end is and see if they have submitted any accounts.


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## L_earner (18 Sep 2006)

liteweight said:


> Yes the Management Company are obliged to hold an Annual General Meeting and to supply you with an audited set of accounts.


Yes, but are they obliged to notify you of the AGM? Is this in legislation? I have taken this up with one management company in similar circumstances. They were adamant that there is no legal requirement to notify apartment owners of the AGM. I couldn't find it anywhere in legislation that proved them wrong. That company was limited by guarantee without a share capital. If anybody can tell me otherwise (with source!) I would be one happy camper.


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## jdwex (19 Sep 2006)

Essentially as an owner of a property you are a shareholder,and they are obliged to let shareholders/owners know of agms/egms. Who are the directors of the company?


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## extopia (19 Sep 2006)

jdwex said:


> Essentially as an owner of a property you are a shareholder,and they are obliged to let shareholders/owners know of agms/egms. Who are the directors of the company?



Are you sure? Why would it be unusual for the management company to be an entity entirely independent of the apartment owners? Surely an agreement must be signed on occupation with the management co., setting out terms and conditions?

I know if I was building a block of apts I certainly would not consider it an obligation to make directors of property investors.


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## liteweight (19 Sep 2006)

L_earner said:


> Yes, but are they obliged to notify you of the AGM? Is this in legislation? I have taken this up with one management company in similar circumstances. They were adamant that there is no legal requirement to notify apartment owners of the AGM. I couldn't find it anywhere in legislation that proved them wrong. That company was limited by guarantee without a share capital. If anybody can tell me otherwise (with source!) I would be one happy camper.



Each apartment owner is a member of the Management Co. I think you may be confused. Initially the Management Company is set up by the builder and when all work is finished, management is handed over the the owners at which time, they may keep the status quo or employ a different Management Co.. Until that time, the Management Co. appointed  has a duty to notify all owners about anything to do with the property. It is not in their interest to keep the owners in the dark as they eventually have a vote as to whether this company is kept on!! I can't point to the legislation but what you were told is rubbish. Are you saying that owners hand over their cash each year to this company with no onus on them to report where it goes?


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## jdwex (19 Sep 2006)

liteweight said:


> Each apartment owner is a member of the Management Co. I think you may be confused. Initially the Management Company is set up by the builder and when all work is finished, management is handed over the the owners at which time, they may keep the status quo or employ a different Management Co.. Until that time, the Management Co. appointed  has a duty to notify all owners about anything to do with the property. It is not in their interest to keep the owners in the dark as they eventually have a vote as to whether this company is kept on!! I can't point to the legislation but what you were told is rubbish. Are you saying that owners hand over their cash each year to this company with no onus on them to report where it goes?



The management company is handed over to the owners when the scheme is completed. They may appoint managing * agents *  to look after the day to day running of the complex/ground.

Sometimes builders/developers don't hand over the development to the owners- and this is when the biggest problems arise. However the owners can gain control by voting off the directors. Of course they have to know when the AGM is happening.


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## CCOVICH (19 Sep 2006)

jdwex said:


> However the owners can gain control by voting off the directors. Of course they have to know when the AGM is happening.


 
But this doesn't necessarily mean that the owners have control of the company/development-as far as I am aware, developers have de facto control until they choose (or are taken to court) to hand the development over to the owners.

For example-we (owners) wanted to have a set of gates moved.  This required planning permission.  Only the builder could/can apply for planning permission until they hand over the development to the owners.  The builder refused to allow this. Independent legal opinion said there was nothing we could do (even though we had more directors than the developer).


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## jdwex (19 Sep 2006)

And on what basis have they retained directorships-have they retained some units in the development?
jd


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## CCOVICH (19 Sep 2006)

jdwex said:


> And on what basis have they retained dierectorships-have they retined some units in the development?
> jd


 
I'm not exactly sure on that point-they may still have had a few units-it is also possible that they leased out (as opposed to sold) the creche building.


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## RainyDay (19 Sep 2006)

CCOVICH said:


> But this doesn't necessarily mean that the owners have control of the company/development-as far as I am aware, developers have de facto control until they choose (or are taken to court) to hand the development over to the owners.


The oft-used catch is that the developers insert a clause in the contracts stating that they will run the management company until the last unit is sold. In principle, this isn't a terrible idea as it allows the developer to maintain the site while new owners are moving in. However, if the developer then opts to retain a few units, he can retain control of the management company indefinitely.

If you are buying an apartment, make sure there is some time limit on the developers control of the management company.


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## L_earner (20 Sep 2006)

jdwex said:


> Essentially as an owner of a property you are a shareholder,and they are obliged to let shareholders/owners know of agms/egms. Who are the directors of the company?


The developers are the directors. What you say about their obligation to notify owners/shareholders sounds right, but what authority are you quoting there?


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## jdwex (20 Sep 2006)

L_earner said:


> The developers are the directors. What you say about their obligation to notify owners/shareholders sounds right, but what authority are you quoting there?



Would it not be standard company law? What development is this?
jd


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## L_earner (20 Sep 2006)

extopia said:


> Are you sure? Why would it be unusual for the management company to be an entity entirely independent of the apartment owners? Surely an agreement must be signed on occupation with the management co., setting out terms and conditions?
> 
> I know if I was building a block of apts I certainly would not consider it an obligation to make directors of property investors.


AFAIK, the management company is the legal owner of the common areas of an apartment complex, and the ground that the block is built on. When we buy an apartment, what we are buying is the right to occupy the cube of space that our apartment occupies. However, we also automatically own a share of the management company, so in that way we own an equal share of the common areas, stairs, lifts, roof, etc, so that we are responsible for payment of an equal share of the cost of maintaining it all. So, AFAIK, it can not happen that the management company is an entity entirely independent of the owners.


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## L_earner (20 Sep 2006)

liteweight said:


> Are you saying that owners hand over their cash each year to this company with no onus on them to report where it goes?


Ahem, therein lies the problem. The apartment owners have become shirty with the directors for the very reason that they held an AGM and adopted the accounts without giving the owners a chance to examine them, and only told them later what was in them. My interest in this is finding out if the adoption of accounts in this way invalidates them, hence my search for the relevant piece of legislation.


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## extopia (21 Sep 2006)

L_earner said:


> what authority are you quoting there?



Why don't you have a look at the agreement you signed when you bought your apartment. What does it say there?


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## L_earner (21 Sep 2006)

jdwex said:


> Would it not be standard company law? What development is this?
> jd


This is going to court so I won't say for now. Will post later when there is a result, ok?


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## L_earner (21 Sep 2006)

extopia said:


> Why don't you have a look at the agreement you signed when you bought your apartment. What does it say there?


The agreement is silent on this.


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## jdwex (25 Sep 2006)

Some reading here
[broken link removed]


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