# Offer for house laughed at..



## Mag2006 (22 Jan 2007)

Hi,

Just a quick one here. My friend looked at a few houses in Wicklow over the past fortnight. Her budget is €381k and herself and her other half are first time buyers. So, most of the houses she looked at had no offers on them (surprice surprise) and have been on the market for 2 months plus at this stage.
So, she offered €381k for one that's asking €425k and the EA said no way will the vendor accept it and he did not really want to go to the vendor with an offer like that. What does she do??. ( I have suggested the letter box option?!?)
Another one that's €415k, same offer and she was laughed at again. Same with one that's €395k.
Thing is, those houses are on the market for ages and the EA's seem to be still dictating things. I think any offer should be considered, but don't we all! 

Sceanario is, the lease on the house they are renting is up on June 1st and they really want to have their house bought and done and dusted by then. All their finance is in order so they are ready to go.

Should they just hang on until April and see what happens or push the EA to ensure he is making the offers or do the letterbox thing I suggested??.
I just had lunch with her and she's sick of it, €381k is a good amount to have for your first home plus they are due their first baby next August.

Any good advice I can pass on??. I went through it last year but we played major hardball with the EA to get our house...well my hubbie did if I'm honest!!


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## Guest118 (22 Jan 2007)

The EA's seem to be a right bucnh of .......  What is the letterbox option?


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## Mag2006 (22 Jan 2007)

Write a little note and tell them you looked at their house and like it and would be willing to offer them €xxxk as a private sale etc and you are loan approved etc. Alot of people give it a go, the worst they can say is No!!.


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## ClubMan (22 Jan 2007)

The vendors may simply have instructed the _EAs _not to consider offers as low as €381K even if there are no other offers. That's their prerogative. Was the offer literally laughed at? If so then that would seem to be a simple case of bad manners over which they might consider making a complaint to the _EA _in question.


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## Mag2006 (22 Jan 2007)

Yes, the guy in question basically sneered at them on Saturday apparantly and they were very taken aback by his manners. 
I dunno, just hope they do get somewhere from a mannerly EA!!


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## Remix (22 Jan 2007)

Mag2006 said:


> Sceanario is, the lease on the house they are renting is up on June 1st and they really want to have their house bought and done and dusted by then. All their finance is in order so they are ready to go.


 
Is there any way they can avoid this time pressure ? 

Some landlords will allow you to sign up for another years lease but with a non-penalty "get-out" clause after 3 or 6 months.

Our current lease is like this but we may not avail of the exit clause given the price changes we are seeing around us. We might just wait and see a bit longer. The amount we pay on rent is quite small compared to some of the reductions we are seeing.


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## Mag2006 (22 Jan 2007)

Unfortunatly not as the owner of the house has his son moving into in on June 1st, he told them that in December that he is back on June 1st so in fairness he has given them good notice it's just a pity they are under this added pressure. They don't want to rent anymore, especially with a baby on the way and they are both in the early 30's now so they feel they really need to bite the bullet now. It's taken them so long to save up and get in a position to get full loan approval that it would be great to see them get their first home. They want to buy in Wicklow Town as Bray is too expensive for their budget and the likes of Arklow and Gorey are too far away for their jobs and it's overpriced there anyway imho. They are looking for €360k for a 3 bed semi down there at the moment...


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## davidoco (22 Jan 2007)

It seems to me that a house valued/advertised in excess of €400,000 would not be sold to anyone in the <381k bracket and as long as we have the current regime of stamp duty that's the way it's going to stay.

Personally having been a vendor the stamp duty situation was discussed in detail prior to going on the market and the advertised price for the property was set either at the stamp duty limit or €25,000+ in excess of it.  Having set the price in excess of the stamp duty limit there was no way (after 8 weeks) that it would be going back down to under the lower bracket (no way unless the house wasn't sold 6 months later)

The estate agents are actually at fault here I think by either overvaluing the house and setting the expectation of the buyer to high. Remember the agents promise the vendors the sun and moon and then beat down their expectations to close the deals.


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## Thrifty1 (22 Jan 2007)

Personnally i would give the letterbox option a go, like you say the worst that can happen is they say no.

You dont know what the circumstances are of the vendors and perhaps they would go for it for a quick sale, there is no chain behind you friend so thats a bonus.

They could also save the EA fees. Tell her to try it.


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## SidTheDweeb (22 Jan 2007)

I too would give the letterbox option a go. The alternative is to walk away. So no harm anywhich way.


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## ClubMan (22 Jan 2007)

Thrifty1 said:


> They could also save the EA fees. Tell her to try it.


The _EA _will still be entitled to be paid for work done and expenses incurred to date so there may not be as much of a potential saving for the venrod as one might assume.


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## mprsv1000 (22 Jan 2007)

A house is only worth whatever someone is willing to pay and the fact that houses are taking longer to sell is proof that people are no longer willing, or due to intrest rate increases, able to pay the prices asked by sellers, so an EA laughing at your offer just shows that they are an This post will be deleted if not edited to remove bad language with poor social skills, so I wouldn't worry too much about them. 
I have been looking at house prices in wicklow/Greystones area fro about 8 months now and very few houses are selling, thats not to say buyers are still trying to get to dollar, as is their right I suppose, but I have no plan to buy just and will rent for a year or so, not that I expect to pay less when I do buy but I do hope to have a better choice.
Anyway if people don't want to buy then sellers either have to hang on to their properties or sell at current market value not market vale of a year ago.

I read a report on property in Portugal, where houses prices have droped by up to 75% in some areas and still take over 2 years to sell.


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## plaudit (23 Jan 2007)

Nothing to lose with letterboxing. They could also put something in the note about being willing to negotiate on contents, auctioneers fees etc. to let the vendor believe they may be able to get, in real terms, something in between the asking price and the offer price. The vendor may also be under pressure to close.


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## Mag2006 (23 Jan 2007)

Well the EA was stupid enough to tell them that the vendors are under pressure to sign contracts for a house they have bought elsewhere but that they want the asking price or they will rent it out, well that is what she was told. It's gas the excuses you hear from them. It is a nice house but no way is it worth €425k!. I nearly died when I saw the price of it.


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## Murt10 (23 Jan 2007)

ClubMan said:


> The _EA _will still be entitled to be paid for work done and expenses incurred to date so there may not be as much of a potential saving for the venrod as one might assume.



If the seller and the purchaser reach an agreement over the house without the purchaser going near the EA then I would imaging that there is very little that the EA could do about it. 

If the seller puts a note in the doors of a housing estate informing the owner occupants that they are a cash buyer looking to buy a house in the area then the sale has nothing to do with the EA. He hasn't facilitated it in any way. The EA certainly would not be entitled to or get anything near the massive fees that they are currently charging. It would be interesting to see them trying to justify 1.5 - 2.5% of the selling price for the miniscule amount of work that they do.  For the life of me I cannot see why the EA (or a solicitor for that matter) is paid a % of the sale price. Is there twice the work selling a house for E900,000 than there was for a house costing E450.000?

The mere fact that the booking deposit wasn't paid over to the EA would considerably weaken their hand. Normally in practice, if they handled the sale they would simply deduct their own fee and expenses from the deposit.

Possession is 9/10's of the law.

Of course the seller would have to pay for the work that was done by the EA and they would also be liable for some other charges that they incurred. As far as I know these additional expenses are charged on top of the EA fees anyway. 


Murt


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## beattie (23 Jan 2007)

Mag2006 said:


> Well the EA was stupid enough to tell them that the vendors are under pressure to sign contracts for a house they have bought elsewhere but that they want the asking price or they will rent it out


Very foolish of the EA, doesn't look like the vendor is in a very powerful position so the letterbox option could do the trick. The vendors could be in for a rude awakening if they try and let it out with the paltry yields that are commonplace now


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## mf1 (23 Jan 2007)

"If the seller and the purchaser reach an agreement over the house without the purchaser going near the EA then I would imaging that there is very little that the EA could do about it. "

Just to correct a couple of fairly serious misconceptions. If the house sells, while the house is on the EA's books, the EA is entitled to their fee. They will sue and they will be successful. The purchaser would not know the house was for sale if the EA's sign was not outside.

If a vendor does not want to pay an EA they can choose to sell the property themselves, without assistance. Once they involve the EA and the house sells, the EA is entitled contractually to their fee. End of story. 

"Of course the seller would have to pay for the work that was done by the EA and they would also be liable for some other charges that they incurred. "

As above. 

It is no service to people viewing this board to be fed very palatable but ultimately untrue tabloid type info. 

And before anyone says, ah yes, but how would the EA know? - don't - thats not the debate.

Finally, there is a slowdown, its a poor time of the year anyway for selling and its for vendors to decide how they sell their houses - privately or through an EA.  If I was selling my house with an EA, I'd be doing it precisely because I don't want the hassle of showing it and dealing with prospective purchasers. Unless I had hit desperate stage, I would not take at all kindly to a purchaser trying to negotiate directly with me. 

mf


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## BlueSpud (23 Jan 2007)

Mag2006 said:


> Well the EA was stupid enough to tell them that the vendors are under pressure to sign contracts for a house they have bought elsewhere but that they want the asking price or they will rent it out, well that is what she was told.



Bear in mind that the EA will tell you whatever they think will coerce you into upping your bid, so dont pay too much attention to that sort of stuff.  No harm can be done with the letterbox idea, if nothing else, it gives the vendor the info that there is at least one buyer out there.  You never know.


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## Sarn (23 Jan 2007)

Wouldn't the fact that the EA refused to pass on an offer that was acceptable be considered them not doing their job and be a justifiable reason for not paying their full fee, especially if this resulted in bridging loan costs, additional advertising (covered by fee I'm sure) etc.?

Advertising etc would have to be paid for of course but I'm sure if you were able to highlight dereliction of duty you'd have a case.

I'd go the letterbox route.


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## Thrifty1 (23 Jan 2007)

My Mam had a house on market a few years ago. She was approached privately and an offer made which she accepted.

She paid the EA for advertisement cost etc but that was all.

Surely they could take the house off the market and then sell privately to this girl.

I can see the ethical implications ie if advertising not done in first place she wouldnt have know it was for sale, etc.

I dont see why they should be entitled to the full fee. As another posted said could they not argue that the EA was wrong ( i dont want to say negligent/incompetent) in not putting the offer to the vendors in the first place?


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## davidoco (23 Jan 2007)

Murt10 said:


> It would be interesting to see them trying to justify 1.5 - 2.5% of the selling price for the miniscule amount of work that they do.



This might have been the case pre June 06 but a lot of estate agents and their employees are getting a rude awakening now and with houses taking months to sell and are doing anything up to 20 viewings on a house plus they have to work the buyers to get them to bite.  Some can sell and some are being found out for the total lack of selling skills they have. 

If your thinking of putting your house on the market now you must be extremely picky in your choice of agent and my suggestion would be to go with someone who has been in the business for more than the last 6 or 7 years.

Sorry for going off thread.


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## Mag2006 (23 Jan 2007)

Well I am going for a spin down to Wicklow with her this evening and drop a note in, she may aswell give it a go. I would say the vendor would be billed for any advertising to date by the EA. I dunno though, the agreement between vendor & EA should really be "subject to sale going through" and no money should pass hands until then...but then again "in a perfect world" etc. The vendor is never really 100% positive that the EA is doing their best for them to sell their house.


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## Murt10 (23 Jan 2007)

mf1 said:


> The purchaser would not know the house was for sale if the EA's sign was not outside.



I think you missed this part of my post "If the seller puts a note in the doors of a housing estate informing the owner occupants that they are a cash buyer looking to buy a house in the area then the sale has nothing to do with the EA."

I have in the past received numerous letters through the letterbox of my house from potential purchasers. The house was not for sale, either then or now. The purchasers did the whole estate in one go so if a sale took place as a result of the trawl then the EA's sign had nothing to do with this potential transaction.

I can't see anything wrong with cancelling the EA's contract to sell your house if you have managed to sell it yourself without his involvement in any way. An examination of the EA contract would of course be necessary. 

Many people change EA's when they are trying to sell their house so there must be a get out clause. I don't think for one moment that it would be anywhere near the full fee that was agreed at the start for the completion of a sale. 

When a property has been on the market for a while and hasn't sold you often see that another agent has been appointed in addition to the original agent. Is the seller going to pay the EA's on the double whether they sell the house or not? Hardly!


Murt


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## finnie (23 Jan 2007)

I certainly agree that seller should be notified of your offer. If a personally delivered note is the only way then so be it. 

We had a horrific experience at the hands of an EA last summer. He promised a price of 350k plus. When it came to drawing the sale documents he insisted on an artificially low AMV of 325 which he said would excite interest and spark a bidding war. As first time sellers we accepted advice.

Two days later a contract arrived which stated that the EA only had to introduce a buyer "_Willing and able" _to complete the deal at the AMV. That weekend we had our first viewing and immediately after came an offer of the AMV.  

No further bids or viewings were coming and the EA attitude was Ive done my job now close the sale. We pulled out when he came back arguing for the prospective purchasers that we should reduce the price further because they did not want to pay for certain contents (Gas appliances, Kitchen appliances etc)

To conclude I think there should be a system of written bids or some form of statutory disclosure to protect buyers/sellers from these people


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## mo3art (24 Jan 2007)

Just to point out that if an EA has "sole selling rights/sole agency" of a property.  If the vendor sells the property off the market, the EA would be entitled to a termination fee.
You would do well to read MF1's post above.  I can't believe the amount of misinformation on this thread.


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## Thrifty1 (24 Jan 2007)

mo3art, perhaps you could enlighten us then, what would the situtation be if these vendors accepted this letterbox offer. Would they still have to pay the full EA fees?


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## Mag2006 (24 Jan 2007)

The basic rule is that if you sell a house yourself without using an EA, and by that I mean no sign or advertising on your behalf by EA, you just don't involve them, then you incurr no fees as you sold the house by your own means.
If you have your house with an EA and you decide progress is slow and take it off them and you sell it yourself in the end, well unfortunatly you will get a bill from the EA for all advertising of your house by them.
In this case, if my friend is sucessful with her note she popped in last night, the vendor would have to inform their EA they are no longer using them to sell the house full stop and they will get an invoice. It's ridiculous really, especially when you know that they might have only shown the house once or twice!


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## Trustmeh (24 Jan 2007)

Good luck with the letterbox route, hope it works out.



mo3art said:


> Just to point out that if an EA has "sole selling rights/sole agency" of a property. If the vendor sells the property off the market, the EA would be entitled to a termination fee.
> You would do well to read MF1's post above. I can't believe the amount of misinformation on this thread.


 
I would agree on the misinformation part some posts.

I dealt with these issues 4 years ago when I needed a fast sale of my house.  I went to the biggest estate agent in the city and told him I was going to list the house with him and also sell the house privately - I would pay his fee if he found a buyer, and not if I found the buyer.  He told me no way, and not to bother contacting any of the other large agents as they were all boycotting people that used the local private sale ads.

A letter to the IAVI got a quick response and an investigation by same. I dont know the result but in the end a smaller agent did what I asked and listed my house as well as going private. In the end I found the buyer and paid no fee.

Mozart asks the right question. Has the seller signed exclusive sale rights to his house away?  At the end of the day, only the seller knows the answer - if they dont drop the note in the letter box - their offer will not be recvd.

From the IAVA website...

Check out the FAQ in the link, if its Sole Agent then the fee has to be paid, if its Open Agent then:
"Where the property is placed on a number of agents’ books on a “first come first served” basis and the party introducing the buyer receives the fee.....Should the sole agent introduce a buyer, there is no dispute as to which agent is due the fee - in open agencies this can be a particular problem. "


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## mo3art (24 Jan 2007)

Thrifty1 said:


> mo3art, perhaps you could enlighten us then, what would the situtation be if these vendors accepted this letterbox offer. Would they still have to pay the full EA fees?



Thrifty, as I have already pointed out above, if the agent is engaged on a sole agency/sole selling rights basis then a termination fee will apply.  It depends from one EA to another but this could be as much as full agency fees to a % of EA fees.  The vendor will still be liable for the full of the advertising costs in this case also.  Most EA are engaged on sole agency basis, and this can be clarified by checking the letter of terms which is typically sent to the vendor when they decide to engage an EA.

Letterbox offers can work but are more be cost effective for the vendor if (a) the house isn't already on the market or (b) the agent is employed on an "open agency" basis.

It is most likely in this case that the EA is acting on their clients' instructions and they have been instructed not to accept any offers under a certain limit.


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## Mag2006 (25 Jan 2007)

Update, the vendor rang my friend last night and said thanks for the offer and that he did not realise that she had made an offer on the property. He explained very nicely that he will hold onto her details and if things are still the same in the next 6-8 weeks he would definatly consider selling to them especially that they are FTB's fully mortgage approved. She is happy enough with that and is hoping to god he gets back to her, so are we all. The vendor was extremely nice to her and found it amazing that she felt she had to resort to this after viewing it with the EA. So you never know what will happen in the next few weeks. There are a few more houses she is thinking of going down the same road with as one of them was €410k and she offered €381k and EA said it would not be considered. They are still playing the game and overpricing houses imho.


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## corky23 (1 Feb 2007)

Hi there,
I was in the same situation as your friend, the highest I could offer on a house was 381k and last August I found a house in Dublin 8 that I loved which had a guide of 400K and also needed to be modernised so i just couldn't afford it. The EA practically laughed at me too and said oh no they will never except anything lower  so I forgot about the house and continued my search. But I was still keeping an eye on this house and two months later it still hadn't sold so I got a friend to ring up and ask about it. They told her there was an offer of 390K on it, but I just didn't believe it as it had been on the market for so long, as even when I had found the house in August, I spoke to the neigbours and they told me it had been for sale for a good while. So I got back in touch and said I was still interested but my final offer was 381K and it was accepted straight away!!  Your friend is much better off waiting it out. If people really need to sell then they will have to except something below the guide eventually. Plus, as far as I know I thought it was an EAs duty to tell the vendor any offer put on the house even if below the guide. It is only a guide after all. Good Luck!


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## Mag2006 (1 Feb 2007)

Thanks Corky, well done on getting the house you wanted in the end and waiting it out, good enought on the estate agent having to accept the offer, you must have enjoyed that one!!.
My friend has bought a new house in Rathdrum instead and it's gorgeus, it's only another 6 miles from Rathnew anyway and far nicer plus it's a new build.
At least we all know not to bother with that EA if they ever has a house for sale we like, the ignorance of them!. That house is still on the market too, actually every single one of them are!!.


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## pansyflower (1 Feb 2007)

Just for info - Rathdrum to Rathnew is 8.4 miles 
[AA Route Planner]


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## Smi1er (1 Feb 2007)

Murt10 said:


> If the seller and the purchaser reach an agreement over the house without the purchaser going near the EA then I would imaging that there is very little that the EA could do about it.



If the purchaser was originally introduced by the EA then there is an awful lot the EA can do. They can, and do, sue. And its a clear cut case.


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## Smi1er (1 Feb 2007)

The vast majority of EA's in Ireland have never had it so good. They have never experienced a crash.

If an English EA asked for fees to cover advertising costs they would be laughed at.

If you have the impression an EA isn't passing on your offer then put your offer in writing... cc'ing the vendor


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## plaudit (2 Feb 2007)

Smi1er said:


> If the purchaser was originally introduced by the EA then there is an awful lot the EA can do. They can, and do, sue. And its a clear cut case.


 
I am not so sure. If my house is for sale and then I tell the EA to take it off the market he does not know whats going on privately between me and the buyer, the house will change hands without him knowing it.


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