# Being docked 15 mins pay if 3 mins late?



## BetsyClark (27 Jan 2011)

Hello

A friend works in the childcare sector. Her employers recently introduced new working terms in a new contract. One new condition is that if an employee is 3 mins late they they are docked 15 mins of wages. This seems a harsh sanction. 

My friend is asking if it's legal and above board and I assume it is, but said I'd make some enquiries. She has an idea that if staff are 3 mins late, then they will simply hang around outside for the next 11 minutes, seeing as they are losing 15 mins pay anyway?

So, is it legal to dock 15 mins pay if 3 mins late?
Is it simply silly and risky to react in a childish manner as suggested above?

Betsy


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## MaryBe (27 Jan 2011)

Yes,  I worked for a company that had that rule.  3 mins late resulted in 15mins deduction.   The employee would have to work an extra 15mins in the week to recoup his/her loss.


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## rescue16 (27 Jan 2011)

*Grace time ?*

Were i work there is something called grace time basically it means that if you are late for work but it is not over 15 minutes then you wont be docked this is a retail company so it might be different


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## callybags (28 Jan 2011)

Does she have an existing employment contract?

If so, then she must agree to the new terms before they can be implemented.


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## Bronte (28 Jan 2011)

BetsyClark said:


> Is it simply silly and risky to react in a childish manner as suggested above?


 
Maybe she could learn to arrive at work on time.  There must be a major issue with people arriving constantly late if an employer is going to introduce the new rules.


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## truthseeker (28 Jan 2011)

Bronte said:


> Maybe she could learn to arrive at work on time. There must be a major issue with people arriving constantly late if an employer is going to introduce the new rules.


 
I disagree with this. Its been implemented in the company I work in recently also (however their is a grace period longer than OPs friend). There is not a lateness issue and in fact, most staff put in extra time in the evening (by necessity as the place is understaffed), and they do not get paid extra for staying later (salaried workers) so it seems totally unfair that they get docked if theyre late. It is not explicitly stated in anyones employment contract and as salaried workers the general feeling is that this change is illegal if not implemented with agreement. We are currently awaiting advice from the union to know if what has been done is legal.

What has happened as a result of this is that people who previously had no issue with giving extra time are reluctant to now as they feel hard done by and there is a sense of 'if youre gonna dock me for being late but not pay me for staying late - why should I?'.

It has completely removed any goodwill flexibility that used to exist.

I must add that this is another in a long series of issues where staff feel that they are being treated badly and/or illegally so it is not this issue alone that has caused a lack of goodwill but more like the straw that is breaking the camels back.


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## Sol28 (28 Jan 2011)

I had a (college) job in a nationwide video rental store. I was working by the hour - with double pay for the 10pm-12 hours. My boss told me that if I was closing up - I would have to count the cash and hoover and cleanup after the shop was closed, and if i was to open up I had to be in 30 mins in advance. I asked her was I being paid for this - She said 'No' its expected. I asked her would I be docked if i was late, She said 'Yes'. She didnt see the problem. I told her no way - She will get 3 mins before and after my shift - I would get all the work done, but unless I was paid - there was no chance. The look of surprise on her face was priceless. Anyway - I worked there a year before I quit to move away for college again.


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## PyritePete (28 Jan 2011)

callybags said:


> does she have an existing employment contract?
> 
> If so, then she must agree to the new terms before they can be implemented.


 
+1


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## truthseeker (28 Jan 2011)

PyritePete said:


> +1


 
While I agree in theory - new terms have been implemented in my workplace without being agreed and there are currently cases pending for the labour court, unfortunately there is such a backlog that people have been waiting over a year for the cases to be heard, and in that time have had to put up with the changes until the case happens.


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## Purple (28 Jan 2011)

It may well be legal but it's a stupid idea. Does it come from the "How to alienate your employees and build resentment" book?


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## truthseeker (28 Jan 2011)

purple said:


> it may well be legal but it's a stupid idea. Does it come from the "how to alienate your employees and build resentment" book?


 
+1


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## becky (28 Jan 2011)

I’ve heard of this before and while it’s a way of managing attendance I think employees will more than likely become less flexible. Just mange the problem properly.

A boss I know arranged a staff lunch on a Friday for a staff member who was leaving. They didn’t get back to the office until 2.10pm so he sent them all an email telling them they had to stay working until 5.10pm to make up the time. For months afterwards the staff would sit in their cars so as not be 5 minutes early. The girl who was leaving left at 5 though .

I knew someone else who had to be at 9.20 but were not paid until 9.30. This was to allow you 10 minutes of faffing about time, so you took off coat, scarf, turned on PC and touched up your lip gloss and then got down to work.


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## Purple (28 Jan 2011)

becky said:


> This was to allow you 10 minutes of faffing about time, so you took off coat, scarf, turned on PC and touched up your lip gloss and then got down to work.



I take it the men could come in 5 minutes late then?


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## truthseeker (28 Jan 2011)

If staff are coming in late its an issue for management to address with the correct disciplinary procedures.

Managing it with an automated system that docks peoples pay is not the answer. It gives no flexibility in genuine cases where someone is more than prepared to stay late or miss lunch if they happen to have been late for whatever reason.

Yes - there are now staff members waiting in the cars, or worse, clocking in and doing nothing until the 'contracted' time begins. There are now stand offs where staff who previously would have just stayed late or come in on a saturday are refusing to do the extra time without prior agreement about receiving time in lieu. Its causing problems in the cases where a manager is not reachable and there is a problem and the only staff member who can fix it is saying 'well unless the time back is agreed Im not staying, otherwise Ill just be shafted for the free time but youll be happy to dock me tomorrow if I run late'.

The entire situation is demeaning and ridiculous.


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