# How do I know if an estate agent is bluffing?



## bearaman (15 Sep 2008)

Hi All,
Interesting in a house but haven't put any offer down yet. Before viewing, agent said there were no offers down on it but now he said there is one and they're very keen to buy.
How do I know if it's a bluff?
Do I put in a lower bid, thinking that there is no other bidder?
Do I increase the bid he says the other party have?
Thanks,
B.


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## thomasmc01 (15 Sep 2008)

welcome to the world of private treaty sales, everyone has this fear, i have previously suggested that buyers ask the auctioneer for the vendors solicitor to confirm bids, some solicitors will do it especially in this market. they can do it by asking the existing bidder to put it in writing to the vendors solicitors. sounds confusing but it can work especially if the vendor is keen to get a higher bid


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## mf1 (15 Sep 2008)

Ask yourself these questions: 

Do I like this house?
Do I want to buy this house?
How much am I willing to pay for it?
Am I willing to walk away from this house?
Then offer what you like and let it be known that, while you may, just may, be interested in going up ever so slightly, that, in reality, there are lots of other houses around and your offer is only on the table for a limited time. If there is no other bidder,   then they will not want you to disappear. If you are told there is another bidder, then you have to use your own judgment as to whether that is a phantom bidder or not. If you think its phantom, put a deadline on your offer. if you think its a real person, decide how much you are willing to pay and then bid up to it. 

No-one will force you to buy the house. There is no conspiracy. Vendors and  purchasers alike just want to achieve a best price scenario. That is called a contract.

mf


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## Howitzer (15 Sep 2008)

Ask him if he's a member of of the IAVI. If he's not then he's bluffing, if he is then he's definately bluffing.

It's their job simple as that.


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## mf1 (15 Sep 2008)

thomasmc01 said:


> welcome to the world of private treaty sales, everyone has this fear, i have previously suggested that buyers ask the auctioneer for the vendors solicitor to confirm bids, some solicitors will do it especially in this market. they can do it by asking the existing bidder to put it in writing to the vendors solicitors. sounds confusing but it can work especially if the vendor is keen to get a higher bid



This cannot work. Any bid would be made subject to contract/ contract denied - for very good reason. There cannot be a binding contract in place until full evidence of title is on offer, investigated and accepted. 

Any bids therefore will have no legal standing and , I assume, would be easy enough for the vendor to "rig" with a couple of mates. 

And could people please remember that behind every EA is a Vendor - I deal with EA's all the time and I just do not have the same negative attitude to them as I see on this board. They are doing a  job and , for both vendor and purchaser it can be a very stressful time. 

mf


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## z103 (15 Sep 2008)

It's a buyer's market now.
Who cares if the estate agent is bluffing? - there isn't exactly a shortage of houses for sale at the moment.


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## gillarosa (15 Sep 2008)

Would you think about having a friend 'phone the EA to enquire about properties for sale in the general area and they should get a synopsis of the sale status on it. They will be told if there is interest or an actual bid.


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## thomasmc01 (15 Sep 2008)

reply to mf1
agee with you, there is no legal standing but the solicitor wont do it unless they are fairly sure, its just a way for an estate agent to prove (to some degree) there is a bid and thus helps those unsure...there is no real definite way


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## MrMan (15 Sep 2008)

bearaman said:


> Hi All,
> Interesting in a house but haven't put any offer down yet. Before viewing, agent said there were no offers down on it but now he said there is one and they're very keen to buy.
> How do I know if it's a bluff?
> Do I put in a lower bid, thinking that there is no other bidder?
> ...




Just to summarise what I think you are say: You enquired about a house and at that time there were no offers, since then you have seen it and now there is an offer. Do you think that you are the only interested party? I presume there is something good about the house if you are interested so the possibility is surely there that there are other like minded people. If you are truly concerned that you are being taken for a ride then either move on or simply put in the offer you were initially going to bid.


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## bearaman (15 Sep 2008)

Thanks for all the advice. I'll get a friend to check and then just put in my original bid, we'll see then what happens. Thanks again for your time.
B.


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## sadie (15 Sep 2008)

What's also important is the status of the other bidder - are they in a chain, are they ready to go. Ask the estate agent. Are you in a chain or ready to go? This affects your bargaining power hugely. A relative's house is on the market since Jan 08. They are currently on their third Sale Agreed, as one buyer was bluffing about having sold their own house, and next buyer's own sale fell through. So an EA will always prefer someone who's ready to proceed with the sale rather than someone who's waiting for someone to sign contracts on their own house.


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## gianni (16 Sep 2008)

his lips will be moving...


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## 3rdLevel (18 Sep 2008)

i bought my house a year ago , i offered estate agent x amount below listing price , she came back 3 times saying the owner wouldnt sell

with that a neighbour i know told the owner i made 3 offers and she came to meet me personally and said the estate agent never called her at all 

and i end up getting it 20k cheaper

go to the owner urself and offer a price without estate agent and negotiate a good price


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## MrMan (19 Sep 2008)

3rdLevel said:


> i bought my house a year ago , i offered estate agent x amount below listing price , she came back 3 times saying the owner wouldnt sell
> 
> with that a neighbour i know told the owner i made 3 offers and she came to meet me personally and said the estate agent never called her at all
> 
> ...



That story makes absolutely no sense so presuming truth I would say its the exception rather than the rule.


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## Complainer (19 Sep 2008)

Offer what the house is worth to you in the current market, no more and no less.


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## JMR (19 Sep 2008)

MrMan said:


> That story makes absolutely no sense so presuming truth I would say its the exception rather than the rule.


 
Agree that it doesn't seem to make sense as the objective of an EA is to secure a sale.
With a 1% commission, a €20K below asking price offer would result in a €200 reduction in EA's fee if accepted.
Logic would seem to dictate that the EA would not dismiss the offer due to this modest reduction in fee chargeable.

However, could it be the case that in areas where several EA's are competing for business that it is in all their interests to keep prices high?
Each EA would not wish to be seen as the one who achieves the lowest prices for fear of losing future business.


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## Complainer (20 Sep 2008)

JMR said:


> However, could it be the case that in areas where several EA's are competing for business that it is in all their interests to keep prices high?
> Each EA would not wish to be seen as the one who achieves the lowest prices for fear of losing future business.


Likewise, they wouldn't wish to be seen as the one who fails to close the sale because the prices are too high.


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## Miracle Girl (20 Sep 2008)

that experience happened to me I am afraid.I put in a good offer  on a house in the uk a few years ago, when I was viewing the house the vendors made it very clear to me they were very interested in what I had to offer as I was a FTB funds in place and ready to go.  They really needed to sell and they said to me there was a couple interested, however the other couple was in a chain and they were far more interested in my bid.
I (doing things by the book) left their house had a good think about it and put in an offer via the agent, the EA told me another "single" person was interested and had put in higher offer to mine, I went higher and this went on for 3 bids.In the end I pulled out as it was getting stupid and I was beginning to think this other person didnt exist, if he had said it was a couple I would have been none the wiser as I would have assumed it was the couple the vendors had told me about.
I wrote the vendors a note telling them that I had placed a number of offers, but unfortunately had to pull out due to the price going to high and what a shame it was as I loved the house , money ready etc etc... put my mobile on it.I slipped it through there front door. (naughty I know)
They called me the next day and said they had never knew I had offered and they had been disappointed as they had been sure I would offer. the vendor went back to EA and made him call me to apologise, they accepted my first bid (which was the asking price!) which I thought was very decent of them and I belive they reported the EA.
I have a number of friends who are or were EA and the phamtom bidder was certainly common practice about 5/6 years ago!


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## johnspica (23 Sep 2008)

The whole subject of Estate Agents and honesty has never been properly explored by the media. They either report on Agents failures or successes with wild abandon and innuendo, or repeat calls for the Government to bring them to justice. So what is an Estate Agent. Its a person who puts a buffer between a seller and a buyer.
Why would a seller use an Agent?
Usually because they don't want to deal with buyers. It could be because they are timid, or too busy, or unsure about selling and want to be able to change their mind. It's often because another seller recomends a particular agent to them.
Are there any good agents?
I believe there are loads, but buyers won't necessarily like them because they are doing their job.
"Complainer" asked if the agent was bluffing, the word lying should have been used. If the agent is lying he runs the risk of losing his buyer, madness in the current market.

Buyers are like buses, they often come in pairs.

Offer what you think the house is worth- then move on.


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## Towger (23 Sep 2008)

Estate agents are up to all sorts of tricks. I know of a well know agent who wanted to reduce the value of a house (I won't go into the details here), so a couple of good soaking with hose up in the attic was called for. It was left for a few weeks with windows closed. Then it was valued...


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## MrMan (23 Sep 2008)

Towger said:


> Estate agents are up to all sorts of tricks. I know of a well know agent who wanted to reduce the value of a house (I won't go into the details here), so a couple of good soaking with hose up in the attic was called for. It was left for a few weeks with windows closed. Then it was valued...



So now estate agents are involved in criminal damage in order to procure lower valuations, are you for real?


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## Towger (23 Sep 2008)

MrMan said:


> So now estate agents are involved in criminal damage in order to procure lower valuations, are you for real?


 
Who said it was criminal damage? Fraud would be a better description.


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## johnspica (23 Sep 2008)

"I know of a well known estate agent...." If you know why not name him! A hose in the attic would cause an electrical short as the water ran into the light pendants. It would find holes in the ceilings and drip down the walls.  I wonder if you just made all this up?


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## MrMan (23 Sep 2008)

Towger said:


> Who said it was criminal damage? Fraud would be a better description.



Far fetched would be an even better description.


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## Bronte (24 Sep 2008)

johnspica said:


> "I know of a well known estate agent...." If you know why not name him! A hose in the attic would cause an electrical short as the water ran into the light pendants. It would find holes in the ceilings and drip down the walls. I wonder if you just made all this up?


 
One of my properties suffered a burst pipe - like raining inside over xmas when tenant's had gone home and I don't know how many days but the electricity still worked.  That was the first thing we had to worry about as it was dangerous (water transmits electricity).
Towager I believe you - it's amazing what people will get up to if they are greedy enough.  The answer to the original question is how long is a piece of string. OP you just bid what you want, have a maximum amount, be happy if you get it for that and if you don't you walk away as there will always be another perfect house.


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## johnspica (24 Sep 2008)

Why not name the agent if it's true. It's easy to write anonymous b****hit, if it's true be brave and name the leading Agent!


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## Bronte (24 Sep 2008)

He can not name him as AAM could be sued for slander.  How would you be able to prove it happened in any case.


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## Towger (24 Sep 2008)

johnspica said:


> Why not name the agent if it's true. It's easy to write anonymous b****hit, if it's true be brave and name the leading Agent!


 
Dont be silly, Brendan values his house.


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## rmelly (24 Sep 2008)

Mods, you're probably going to delete this, but am I the only one thinking:

"How do I know if an estate agent is bluffing?" because he's opened his mouth? Sorry, eventually had to give in.


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## mf1 (24 Sep 2008)

johnspica said:


> Why not name the agent if it's true. It's easy to write anonymous b****hit, if it's true be brave and name the leading Agent!



Eh no. Serious problems for the owners of the site if anonymous posters start spreading rumours/innuendo and allegations. 

I think Brendan's veiw is that anyone who wants to name and shame is free to parade up and down the street with a placard so long as they accept responsibility for their own actions. 

mf


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## johnspica (24 Sep 2008)

If it looks like b******t, and smells like b******t, it's probably b******t.

Be a man and admit you made it up to enhance a story in a moment of madness. The we can all go and get some work done.


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## MrMan (24 Sep 2008)

rmelly said:


> Mods, you're probably going to delete this, but am I the only one thinking:
> 
> "How do I know if an estate agent is bluffing?" because he's opened his mouth? Sorry, eventually had to give in.



Giani on page 1 beat you to the punch.



> Dont be silly, Brendan values his house.



So does that mean that spouting wild accusations are fair game so long as they tarnish a profession rather than a professional.


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## Towger (24 Sep 2008)

MrMan said:


> So does that mean that spouting wild accusations are fair game so long as they tarnish a profession rather than a professional.


 
Relax, it is only one story conserning an estate agent, I have a couple more involving different estate agents, which I won bother going into.


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## johnspica (24 Sep 2008)

Go on Towger be a man and admit it's total bull!

If you want to share other wild and wonderful tales maybe you should start them off with " I knew a fella who had a friend who heard about a bloke whos' cousins Aunties sister heard about this guy who..............."


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## Bronte (24 Sep 2008)

johnspica said:


> Go on Towger be a man and admit it's total bull!
> 
> If you want to share other wild and wonderful tales maybe you should start them off with " I knew a fella who had a friend who heard about a bloke whos' cousins Aunties sister heard about this guy who..............."


  Hi John, you have only 26 posts so you should be slower to judge others motives.  If you or MrMan (who battles bravely alone for his profession) can prove that Towager has a reason to spout lies about estate agents there might be more notice taken of what you say.  Personally I don't think that their profession is any more corrupt than any other.


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## MrMan (24 Sep 2008)

Towger said:


> Relax, it is only one story conserning an estate agent, I have a couple more involving different estate agents, which I won bother going into.



I'm not intimating that you have made it up its just that if you stand back and dissect the story it doesn't add up. I have no doubts that some of the stories that you are aware of will have a large degree of truth to them just this particular one seems odd to me.



> If you or MrMan (who battles bravely alone for his profession) can prove that Towager has a reason to spout lies about estate agents there might be more notice taken of what you say.


 
Its not the making up of stories that bothers me its the ease in which they are accepted. I know I'm in a profession with a dubious past which has been the fault of the profession and its lack of regulation  but every profession should be looking at ways in which they can turn around perceptions and actually do something to enhance their reputation. The NAR in the states have gone to great lengths to do this and apparently it has seen great improvements in public perceptions. Off topic and sounding repetitive but its all I have!


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## johnspica (24 Sep 2008)

I don't care what profession he is talking about, and I don't mind whether you pay attention to what I have to say or not. I do wonder why you are taking some much trouble to defend him, when he hasn't bothered to defend himself.
I just hate it when people make stuff and try to pass it off as fact. If he cared to admit it was a pack of lies I would be delighted to forget about it.


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## oceanclub (24 Sep 2008)

How cute that some people here seem to regard estate agents of paragons of virtue.

True story: I recently met a FOF who is expecting. Herself and her husband recently went to view a house. The estate agent as per usual cooed over the house, especially as my friend mentioned she was expecting - why, it even overlooked a school.

As they were leaving, she noticed a strange thing - a group of people had congregated around the house next door. Her, being no shrinking violet, went up to them to ask what was going on. Well, it was a welcoming committee of "concerned" locals for a known paedophile about to be released from prison. And yes, his house also overlooked the school too...

Needless to say, the friend wasn't too impressed and rang the agent the next day to find out why they hadn't imformed her of this minor factoid. The response was along the lines of "not my problem, love".

P.


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## Caveat (24 Sep 2008)

oceanclub said:


> Needless to say, the friend wasn't too impressed and rang the agent the next day to find out why they hadn't imformed her of this minor factoid. The response was along the lines of "not my problem, love".


 
But what makes you or anyone so sure that the EA knew about all this?

Perfectly conceivable that they didn't IMO.


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## MrMan (24 Sep 2008)

oceanclub said:


> How cute that some people here seem to regard estate agents of paragons of virtue.
> 
> True story: I recently met a FOF who is expecting. Herself and her husband recently went to view a house. The estate agent as per usual cooed over the house, especially as my friend mentioned she was expecting - why, it even overlooked a school.
> 
> ...




You mean the EA hadn't vetted all of the neighbours to see exactly who lived where, my God how unprofessional.


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## Deb___ (24 Sep 2008)

Maybe I'm having a blonde moment but I can't think of any situation which would urge an EA to want to bring down the value of a house? (Hosepipe or otherwise)!


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## oceanclub (24 Sep 2008)

MrMan said:


> You mean the EA hadn't vetted all of the neighbours to see exactly who lived where, my God how unprofessional.


 
The estate agent knew quite well about the neighbour - hence their defence being "it's not my problem" rather than "I didn't know about the neighbour". 

They also knew about the virtual picketting that was going on at the next house, if they had two eyes. 

P.


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## Deb___ (24 Sep 2008)

oceanclub said:


> The estate agent knew quite well about the neighbour - hence their defence being "it's not my problem" rather than "I didn't know about the neighbour".
> 
> They also knew about the virtual picketting that was going on at the next house, if they had two eyes.
> 
> P.




I dont think theres any legal onus on an EA to declare negative aspects of purchasing the property (be it a local paedophile, the future erection of a phone mast or a dump etc). 

I think the valuable lesson here is that potential buyers should do all they can to find out as much info as possible about the neighbourhood - perhaps talking to the local Garda station or residents association or even knocking on doors to chat to residents.


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## Caveat (24 Sep 2008)

oceanclub said:


> The estate agent knew quite well about the neighbour - hence their defence being "it's not my problem" rather than "I didn't know about the neighbour".


 
I wouldn't automatically make that assumption.  "It's not my problem" is a blunt statement of fact - it _isn't_ their problem. Not very supportive but factually accurate. It certainly doesn't necessarily mean that they knew about it.


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## ubiquitous (24 Sep 2008)

oceanclub said:


> As they were leaving, she noticed a strange thing - a group of people had congregated around the house next door. Her, being no shrinking violet, went up to them to ask what was going on. Well, it was a welcoming committee of "concerned" locals for a known paedophile about to be released from prison. And yes, his house also overlooked the school too...



Sorry, I don't really understand this story. Why were they hanging around the house if the guy was still "about to be" released from prison? Was there a 24-hour picket on his house even before he returned? Where exactly was this?


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## oceanclub (24 Sep 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> Sorry, I don't really understand this story. Why were they hanging around the house if the guy was still "about to be" released from prison? Was there a 24-hour picket on his house even before he returned?


 
Seemingly. If you want to know *why*, you'll have to ask these people directly, as I'm not the rent-a-mob vigilante type. 

P.


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## ubiquitous (24 Sep 2008)

Just sounds odd. Are you sure your FOF wasn't telling a porky?


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## MrMan (24 Sep 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> Just sounds odd. Are you sure your FOF wasn't telling a porky?




That sounds plausible, but if the story is true the EA would be spreading gossip rather than fact if he were to say there was a paedo next door. An EA cannot and should not talk about what might happen next door, if asked is there anything that they know of that might be detrimental to the area I would expect them to answer truthfully if not politically.


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## Bronte (25 Sep 2008)

oceanclub said:


> The estate agent knew quite well about the neighbour - hence their defence being "it's not my problem" rather than "I didn't know about the neighbour".
> 
> They also knew about the virtual picketting that was going on at the next house, if they had two eyes.
> 
> P.


  Well I'd have fired the estate agent for being incompetent, he should not have brought potential buyers when this was going on 
Reasons for lower valuations: Buyer is the auctioneer and he owns property next door and he's going to demolish the properties, buyer is a developer who does a lot of business with the the auctioneer, to lower the valuation for CGT purposes etc.  it could be for any number of reasons
Does it matter if an estate agent is bluffing, his job is to sell the property at the best price, the buyer is the person who makes the decision on the best price and the seller makes the decision on what to sell for.  But here on AAM we have people saying they overpaid because the agent told me lies about other bids - just don't bid.


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## xeresod (25 Sep 2008)

Deb___ said:


> Maybe I'm having a blonde moment but I can't think of any situation which would urge an EA to want to bring down the value of a house? (Hosepipe or otherwise)!


 

Valuation for CGT or inheritance tax purposes maybe?


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## johnspica (25 Sep 2008)

"Does it matter if he's bluffing", of course it does, it's not bluffing , its lying. If Estate Agents want people to see them in a more positive light, they have to become paragons of honesty. Bidders have to know that they are bidding against a real person.
Auctioneers now DO have a legal obligation to reveal all they know about the property and to answer all questions truthfully, even if they are negative. Have a look at http://www.npsra.ie/website/npsra/npsraweb.nsf/page/index-en

None of this excuses Towger for telling a story which is on the face of it a pack of lies. I believe that Estate Agents have cheated and lied for years to get what they want, but so have sellers who paint over the cracks, and buyers who pretend to be cash buyers and are secretly trying to sell their wreck of a house. What I cannot really understand is why Estate Agents as a group are so vilified. My buying experiences are probably typical of everyone elses, I met the dodgy car dealer type Agent who told me the extra bit of garden was part of the house, when it belonged to the property behind, the Agent who took my deposit after doing a deal, and posted it back to me without explanation, then sold the property to someone else without lettng me bid any further. On of these guys was on the take, the other just didn't know his stuff and was winging it. But I've also met plenty of Agents who showed up for a viewing on time, were knowledgeable, courteous, and who sounded genuinely sorry for me when I didn't get what i was bidding against. I've also met dodgy solicitors, dodgy car salesman, carpet salesmen, dodgy politicians, I won't go one, but in every business ther are crooks, what is it about estate agents that inspires people to make stuff up?


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