# Civil Servant 11y srvce- retired medical grounds - huge deduction frm gratuity fr W&C



## james007 (30 Jan 2009)

Hi,

I was retired on medical grounds as a result of an assualt at work and I received 21k lump sum but lost 18k of this to the Widow and Orphan scheme. Should my employer not be liable for any costs or financial loss to me as a result of this being an assault in the workplace?

Any help would be great thanks.


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## Sue Ellen (31 Jan 2009)

*Re: Advice please on award being reduced.*



james007 said:


> Hi,
> 
> I was retired on medical grounds as a result of an assualt at work and I received 21k lump sum but lost 18k of this to the Widow and Orphan scheme.  Should my employer not be liable for any costs or financial loss to me as a result of this being an assualt in the workplace?
> 
> Any help would be great thanks.



Hi James,

You may need to provide some more information but not too much to identify yourself.  

Were you awarded the lump sum as a result of the assault and if so surely this was to cover the costs/financial loss?  Why was the award reduced?


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## james007 (31 Jan 2009)

*Re: Advice please on award being reduced.*

This lump sum was my retirement gratutity after 11 years in the job and was told that the 18k dedudction was for the Widows and Orphans Scheme.  Its quite frustating really when you see people today make large mistakes and yet walk away with large pensins and no deductions, I was a civil servant, any help is greatly appreciated.

                                                                    007


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## jhegarty (31 Jan 2009)

*Re: Advice please on award being reduced.*

Sorry, this may be a silly question. What's the widows and orphans scheme ?


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## z103 (31 Jan 2009)

*Re: Advice please on award being reduced.*



> What's the widows and orphans scheme


Pretty sure it's a UK deduction thing.


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## mathepac (31 Jan 2009)

*Re: Advice please on award being reduced.*



leghorn said:


> pretty sure it's a uk deduction thing.


+1


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## becky (31 Jan 2009)

*Re: Advice please on award being reduced.*



leghorn said:


> Pretty sure it's a UK deduction thing.


 
No - its part of the pension deduction of irish public servants.

I pay 5% pension and 1.5% for Spouses and Children. The old name was widows and orphans. Its compulsary and it seems the OP was not paying it for 11 years so it got deducted form his lump sum.


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## sandrat (31 Jan 2009)

*Re: Advice please on award being reduced.*

but if he was there for 11 years he would be post 1995 and therefore should be paying widows and orphans I pay it and it is called W/O 1.5% on my payslip


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## james007 (31 Jan 2009)

*Re: Advice please on award being reduced.*

Hi,

and thanks for replies. Yes I was paying it but here lies the problem. As I was retied on medical grounds it seems I had to pay what I would have paid had I reached full service and that is where I have the problem:

1 As I was retired at the Chief Medical Officers say so should it not be ceased and

2 As it was an accident at work should my employer not pay it


thanks again 007


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## becky (31 Jan 2009)

*Re: Advice please on award being reduced.*

Spouses and Children is the new more PC term- its the same scheme.

Regardless of whether he was ost '95 or not he shoiuld have paid into it.  

It seems that as a result of a clerical error he didn't and had to pay back 11 years worth in one lump.


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## Sue Ellen (31 Jan 2009)

*Re: Advice please on award being reduced.*

Were you a member of a trade union who might give you some advice

Could you ask at your Citizen's Information Centre

Speak to your local T.D. or Councillor.


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## james007 (31 Jan 2009)

*Re: Advice please on award being reduced.*

Union are ignorant on the matter and as I'm now retired its even more difficult to get them to enquire.

CIC say that its a matter for Dept of Finance but they say no that its a matter for my employer whom I've written to on seven occasions but still no response.


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## james007 (31 Jan 2009)

*Re: Advice please on award being reduced.*

Hi and thanks,

Yes I had been paying into it but they say that the deduction of 18k was for the years that I would have paid had I not  been retired.


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## becky (31 Jan 2009)

*Re: Advice please on award being reduced.*



james007 said:


> hi and thanks
> yes i had been paying into it but they say that the deduction of 18k was for the years that i would have paid had i not have been retired


 
Didn't know you had to pay it all up front if you leave on medical grounds- you had mentioned that someone made an error earlier and I thought it as that.

In relation to your other query I have no idea.  Suprised you're not getting a reponse to your letters.  I'd write to the Director of HR/CEO and attach all your unanswered letters asking for a response.


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## ajapale (1 Feb 2009)

*Re: Advice please on award being reduced.*

James,

Im moving this question to the Jobs/Careers/EmployER-EE Rights section. Ive also changed the title somewhat to more fully reflect the question. If it appears that the question would be better in the Public Service Pensions Section then I will move it there later.

Were you an established staff member in the Irish Civil Service on a salaried grade? You worked there for 11 years but how long more would you have worked to reach 65? What percentage was deducted from your salary for supereannuation (pension)? Was there a deduction for Spouses/Children?

What union represented your grade at work? I am very surprised with your assertion that they are "ignorant" (lethargic perhaps but not ignorant). This sort of case is their "bread and butter".

It appears to me that you retired early (before 65) on medical grounds. You would have got A) a lump sum and B) a pension based on a proportion of your retiring salary going forward. Do you actually have a spouse and/or children? If so in the event of your death do you expect them to benefit? Do you expect their benefit to be based on your 11 years service or on a full 40 years service?

A relative of mine was in a similar situation a good few years ago and his local TD speeded up a resolution.

aj


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## gipimann (1 Feb 2009)

*Re: Civil Servant 11y srvce- retired medical grounds - hugh deduction frm gratuity fr*

From the FAQ on www.cspensions.gov.ie


*Do I pay for the Spouses' pension? *
Periodic deductions of 1½% of​ 
salary (plus pensionable allowances) are made during an officer’s

working life. In addition, a single deduction of 1% of final salary is
made from the retirement lump sum or death gratuity, as appropriate,
in respect of each year of reckonable service for which periodic
contributions have not been made. This would include pre-scheme
service and any potential service to age 65 (60 in the case of Prison Officers) credited for the spouse’s pension.​​




It appears that the civil service can make the deduction experienced by James007. ​

The matter of compensation due to an assault in work leading to the retirement would be a separate legal (health and safety) matter.​


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## james007 (1 Feb 2009)

*Re: Advice please on award being reduced.*



ajapale said:


> James,
> Were you an established staff member in the Irish Civil Service on a salaried grade? You worked there for 11 years but how long more would you have worked to reach 65? What percentage was deducted from your salary for supereannuation (pension)? Was there a deduction for Spouses/Children?
> 
> What union represented your grade at work? I am very surprised with your assertion that they are "ignorant" (lethargic perhaps but not ignorant). This sort of case is their "bread and butter".
> ...


  Yes was established member with 5 and half years of service was out sick for 5 years before they retired me and got added years of 5 and half years.   

Paid 3.5% for superannuation and 1.5% for spouses and children.   The union that represented me said that it was really a matter for Dept of Finance but no response from them as of yet.  

The lump sum received on retirement was 21k with a deduction of 18k which left me with just under 2k as a retirement lump sum.  Yes they will benefit if I die but i think the benefit is at reduced rate.

Thanks for your help on this.

007


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## putsch (1 Feb 2009)

*Re: Civil Servant 11y srvce- retired medical grounds - huge deduction frm gratuity fr*

This probably isn't too helpful but in somewhat similar circs I had early retirement though with almost 25 years service but I had to pay spouses and children for all 40/45 years even though I have NO SPOUSE OR CHILD and at this stage of my life.........
However I understand the rationale (no pain no gain) so I just grinned and bore it!


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## james007 (1 Feb 2009)

*Re: Civil Servant 11y srvce- retired medical grounds - huge deduction frm gratuity fr*



putsch said:


> This probably isn't too helpful but in somewhat similar circs I had early retirement though with almost 25 years service but I had to pay spouses and children for all 40/45 years even though I have NO SPOUSE OR CHILD and at this stage of my life.........
> However I understand the rationale (no pain no gain) so I just grinned and bore it!


 thanks i guess thats it really just thought that there might have been an avenue since it was an accident at work which led to my retirment


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## ajapale (1 Feb 2009)

*Re: Civil Servant 11y srvce- retired medical grounds - huge deduction frm gratuity fr*



james007 said:


> it was an accident at work which led to my retirement



Im not sure if the Health and Safety leglislation extends fully to Civil Servants...


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## Latrade (2 Feb 2009)

*Re: Civil Servant 11y srvce- retired medical grounds - huge deduction frm gratuity fr*



ajapale said:


> Im not sure if the Health and Safety leglislation extends fully to Civil Servants...


 
It extends to all employers and employees. 

From what I can see this money was related to the early retirement rather than a payment relating to the injury. An award, if a case was taken, for the inury would have been separate and there is no way they could have taken money for the WO scheme. 

While the retirement was due to not being able to continue to work, which it is said to have resulted from a work-related incident, you would need to pursue this separately.


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