# Unpaid Credit Cards - Living abroad



## Marco35 (26 Jan 2020)

Hey,

I have two credit cards each 15K maxed out and stopped paying as I lost job and have to move out to Italy to live with family to support me. the interest on ech is about 380€ a month plus some fees. So in total I am about 32K in debt and it looks very slim to pay it off. I am not planing to return to Ireland as the company I was working for closed and that was the only reason I went there.

I guess the banks will apply to court for Enforcement of debt judgment. How long it will take to catch me up in Italy you think?


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## money_man (27 Jan 2020)

Seems like a big enough debt that they just sell it to an Italian debt collection agency. The Italian agency wont take long to catch up with you. Contact the bank and work through the issue


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## Marco35 (28 Jan 2020)

I am not able to anything, so the advice would be to move to another country?


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## Sconeandjam (28 Jan 2020)

Marco35 said:


> I am not able to anything, so the advice would be to move to another country?



You mean you don't want too?  

Your family will be affected and they will seize assets from your family home as you are registered there. Your family will have to prove they own their assets. I am sure your family would not be happy with you. If you get job seekers in Italy they will take a share of that.

I know of a couple that got two loans(about the same as you) and went to Australia and boasted that the bank would not go after them. The bank sent a debt collector and they both have attachment orders to their wages. They cannot get a mortgage or a car loan in Australia as the banks there asked for and icb check and the debt was plain to see.

This will follow you. Get a job and contact the bank. You cannot run for ever.


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## RedOnion (28 Jan 2020)

Sconeandjam said:


> Your family will be affected and they will seize assets from your family home as you are registered there. Your family will have to prove they own their assets.


Really?

Do you have a reference to that?

It's easy to get a freezing order on the OPs bank accounts anywhere in the EU, but I've no idea how you'd go about seizing assets from their parents home?


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## mathepac (28 Jan 2020)

Sconeandjam said:


> You mean you don't want too?


It isn't clear to me that the OP doesn't want to, there can be multiple reasons why s/he can't. 


Sconeandjam said:


> Your family will be affected and they will seize assets from your family home as you are registered there. Your family will have to prove they own their assets. I am sure your family would not be happy with you. If you get job seekers in Italy they will take a share of that.


That isn't clear to me either.


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## Sconeandjam (29 Jan 2020)

I am sure you have seen the bailiff programme based in the Uk. They go in and see what is of value . They list assets and seize them meaning if nothing is paid they can remove assets later. The family have to prove the assets are there are theirs and not the debtor. Not everyone holds receipts for everything they buy. If the debtor lives in the house there will be upheaval for the family. The same applies to Italy. 

[broken link removed]

To me it is. The person racked up two credit cards for a lot of money. They did not say they paid the minimum or paid anything towards the debt so tried to pay agree a payment plan with the card providers before they left Ireland.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (29 Jan 2020)

RedOnion said:


> It's easy to get a freezing order on the OPs bank accounts anywhere in the EU, but I've no idea how you'd go about seizing assets from their parents home?



I am also sceptical. 

Your average regional Italian court will not see many debt collection orders from a small jurisdiction like Ireland. I doubt they would just wave them through.

If the OP has not told them where he is living there is the additional first stop of finding out where he lives - there are for example several hundred thousand Italian adults called Marco.


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## RedOnion (29 Jan 2020)

Sconeandjam said:


> I am sure you have seen the bailiff programme based in the Uk


Ah, the entertainment show? Yes, that's literally exactly how debt enforcement works everywhere in the EU...

The link you provided is the procedure for recovery of business / company debt. The enforcement piece after the court order is a bit different to personal debt in most countries (including here for example). I believe in Italy you would first go after assets registered in the debtors name, like cars / property, and attachment orders on salary & bank accounts. But you still have to get the court order first. I haven't worked on a case in Italy though, so I'm not entirely sure.

Technically anything with a potential recovery over 2k (with some exceptions) is worth pursuing within the EU. So the OP walking away from their debt is both immoral and potentially foolish as it could follow him.


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## so-crates (29 Jan 2020)

Marco35 said:


> Hey,
> 
> I have two credit cards each 15K maxed out and stopped paying as I lost job and have to move out to Italy to live with family to support me. the interest on ech is about 380€ a month plus some fees. So in total I am about 32K in debt and it looks very slim to pay it off. I am not planing to return to Ireland as the company I was working for closed and that was the only reason I went there.
> 
> I guess the banks will apply to court for Enforcement of debt judgment. How long it will take to catch me up in Italy you think?





Marco35 said:


> I am not able to anything, so the advice would be to move to another country?



A few questions Marco.. 

Does your family know about your money trouble? It will not be easy but it is best to let them know. They are more familiar with the Italian legal system than anyone on here so their help with any legal proceedings will be important.

In your first post you say "it looks very slim to pay it off" and in your second post you say "I am not able to do anything". The first indicates that you are able to pay something whereas the second says that you can pay nothing. Which is it? What you can do will be based on that. 

Are you working or earning money in Italy now? I assume you are not planning on being fully supported by your family forever so I am guessing you are trying to get your life back on track in Italy at the moment. 

Have you been in contact with your creditors? Do they know you have moved to Italy? Have you been paying the interest and charges?

It is a mountain to climb but the worst thing you can do is try to hide from it or run away to another country from it. Another country where you do not have family support, where you have to establish yourself again, where you do not know the legal system.


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## Monbretia (29 Jan 2020)

I suggest giving MABS a call here in Ireland https://www.mabs.ie/en/?gclid=CjwKC...LuGcf4d1l0x7gVMPL5IfNkud75i7IJ2BoCmSsQAvD_BwE

They may be able to give you advice before you contact the bank directly, they have heard it all before so unlikely they will not have come across a similar problem!


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## Marco35 (29 Jan 2020)

I am completely broke. This is why I can not pay a penny. No job, No welfare support. Nothing.
MABS told me they can not help me as I live outside Ireland. Bank knows my Itallian address as I change it right after I opened my account.
I was thinking to move to Spain and look for job there as I speak some Spanish.
I contacted the debt help agency here, and they can not help me right as there is no Enforcement of debt judgment issued yet. Only after it is issued to Italian system I can start the bankruptcy proceeding.


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## RedOnion (29 Jan 2020)

Marco35 said:


> Bank knows my Itallian  address as I change it right after I opened my account


Hi Marco,
You might clarify for me please. If I understand your posts, you opened credit card accounts, lost your job, moved back to Italy, and ran up the debt from there?


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## Marco35 (29 Jan 2020)

Yes, I did all living in Italy, until I reached the limit. The biggest portion was my car accident and hospital pay


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## dereko1969 (29 Jan 2020)

So you basically used the Irish credit cards to fund your life in Italy knowing you were not in a position to pay it back?
No help from me so.


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## so-crates (29 Jan 2020)

Marco35 said:


> I am completely broke. This is why I can not pay a penny. No job, No welfare support. Nothing.
> MABS told me they can not help me as I live outside Ireland. Bank knows my Itallian address as I change it right after I opened my account.
> I was thinking to move to Spain and look for job there as I speak some Spanish.
> I contacted the debt help agency here, and they can not help me right as there is no Enforcement of debt judgment issued yet. Only after it is issued to Italian system I can start the bankruptcy proceeding.





Marco35 said:


> Yes, I did all living in Italy, until I reached the limit. The biggest portion was my car accident and hospital pay



You haven't answered the question about whether you have told your family.

Given your accident and hospital stay are you fit to work? Are you able to find work in Italy at all? As you have given your address in Italy (which I am guessing is a family address?), it could mean distress for your parents if they start getting debt collectors chasing you to their doorstep. Moving to Spain you are still in the EU but you no longer will have the support of family close by and you would be putting them in the position of dealing with the consequences of your debt. 



Marco35 said:


> I contacted the debt help agency here, and they can not help me right as there is no Enforcement of debt judgment issued yet. Only after it is issued to Italian system I can start the bankruptcy proceeding.


Are you hoping for them to get an enforcement of debt judgement issued?


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## Marco35 (29 Jan 2020)

Family know that I borrow some money, just they dont know how much it is.
All I was told from the perspective of an lawyer advice is the only way out bankruptcy


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## noproblem (29 Jan 2020)

Marco35 said:


> Family know that I borrow some money, just they dont know how much it is.
> All I was told from the perspective of an lawyer advice is the only way out bankruptcy


Marco,
What would happen if we all tried doing what you did? There's responsibility and there's none, so you expect everyone else to pick up the bill for you  or just forget about it.


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## Marco35 (29 Jan 2020)

noproblem said:


> Marco,
> What would happen if we all tried doing what you did? There's responsibility and there's none, so you expect everyone else to pick up the bill for you  or just forget about it.




Not sure how my bankruptcy would affect your pocket?


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## Marco35 (29 Jan 2020)

Anyway, does any one have better advice then bankruptcy? At least this is what one law firm suggest as a way out.


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## Easeler (30 Jan 2020)

I blame the clowns that handed you over the 2 unsecured  credit cards with a credit limit of 15000 and the same clowns are now back at it again. Don't loose any sleep over it because there not.


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## Blackrock1 (30 Jan 2020)

Marco35 said:


> Anyway, does any one have better advice then bankruptcy? At least this is what one law firm suggest as a way out.



speak to them, get a repayment plan, get a job and start paying it back.


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## dereko1969 (30 Jan 2020)

Marco35 said:


> Not sure how my bankruptcy would affect your pocket?


Because the cost of people not bothering to pay their debts is added to the cost of borrowing for everyone else, those who do actually pay their debts.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (30 Jan 2020)

If we take the OP at face value, he has:


No income, no prospect of a job, nor assets
A medical history
A €30k debt
Regardless of how he got here, this is exactly the kind of situation for which personal insolvency exists.


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## Marco35 (30 Jan 2020)

Blackrock1 said:


> speak to them, get a repayment plan, get a job and start paying it back.



I tried, but there minimum monthly payment is 1000€, they dont want to talk about less then that.


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## so-crates (30 Jan 2020)

Marco35 said:


> I tried, but there minimum monthly payment is 1000€, they dont want to talk about less then that.


They don't want to but they are going to have to. They are trying to force you to meet their repayment. You can't. They think you can but you can't so you need to start planning what you can do. 

You need to keep a record (written) of every call you have with them. Who you talk to, what time and when, what they say and what you say. You are engaging with them and you are trying to find an equitable solution instead of just bankruptcy so that needs to be recorded. 

The question goes back to what can you do? What amount can you afford to repay? Have you offered a repayment plan to them based on that amount? There are two different credit cards, are they with different providers? I assume you would prefer to pay what you can 50/50?  I am guessing you have something to offer if you are talking to them, something more than zero.


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## demoivre (30 Jan 2020)

Marco35 said:


> I tried, but there minimum monthly payment is 1000€, they dont want to talk about less then that.



As mentioned above by No RegretsCoyote, taking you at face value you are insolvent. Insolvency is not a choice. I'd do nothing until/if I received legal proceedings to recover the debt.


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## Marco35 (30 Jan 2020)

Thanks guys for advice. I will have to wait as the lawyer said to get the enforcement, only after they can help me.


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## RedOnion (30 Jan 2020)

Marco,
For clarification, you spoke to a Lawyer in Italy rather than here in Ireland?


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## tomdublin (30 Jan 2020)

Just out of curiosity, how does one get a credit limit of 15,000?  Unless you once were a massive earner this seems quite reckless on the part of the credit card issuer.  If a normal salary earner "needs" that high a credit limit they almost by definition can't pay it back.


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## Marco35 (30 Jan 2020)

RedOnion said:


> Marco,
> For clarification, you spoke to a Lawyer in Italy rather than here in Ireland?



No one in Ireland want to talk to me as my address is in Italy. I know stupid.


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## Marco35 (30 Jan 2020)

tomdublin said:


> Just out of curiosity, how does one get a credit limit of 15,000?  Unless you once were a massive earner this seems quite reckless on the part of the credit card issuer.  If a normal salary earner "needs" that high a credit limit they almost by definition can't pay it back.



I had a car loan of 7000€ and they offered me credit card after I was late on one payment, so the card could cover the payment if I would be late again. After that they raised the limit automatically when I was late or paid extra interest on it as of minimum payment that month.


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## 24601 (30 Jan 2020)

Marco35 said:


> I had a car loan of 7000€ and they offered me credit card after I was late on one payment, so the card could cover the payment if I would be late again. After that they raised the limit automatically when I was late or paid extra interest on it as of minimum payment that month.



This makes no sense. You’re saying your lender gave you a credit card to pay them back what you owe them with their own money because you started missing repayments?


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## RedOnion (30 Jan 2020)

Marco35 said:


> No one in Ireland want to talk to me as my address is in Italy. I know stupid.


Nothing stupid about it. Your qualification for certain insolvency options in Ireland are only available if you're in Ireland (or recently living here). Being abroad complicates things.


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## tomdublin (31 Jan 2020)

Marco35 said:


> I had a car loan of 7000€ and they offered me credit card after I was late on one payment, so the card could cover the payment if I would be late again. After that they raised the limit automatically when I was late or paid extra interest on it as of minimum payment that month.



Automatically raising the credit limit after a missed payment seems so reckless, irresponsible and bizarre that you might have a legal case against the bank which, if successful, would result in your debt being (partially) cancelled.  You may want to consider bringing this to the attention of the financial regulator but you should take expert advice before doing so.


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## RedOnion (31 Jan 2020)

tomdublin said:


> Automatically raising the credit limit after a missed payment seems to reckless, irresponsible and bizarre


To the extent that I'd be skeptical we're getting the full story...


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## NoRegretsCoyote (31 Jan 2020)

24601 said:


> This makes no sense. You’re saying your lender gave you a credit card to pay them back what you owe them with their own money because you started missing repayments?



Likewise the interest rate seems about 30%.

I'd never heard of a rate that high.


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## eisfspike (31 Jan 2020)

Can't say I agree here. Everyone has responsibility for their own finances and their financial well being. 

At OP pay your debt, you incurred it. Simple.


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## Sconeandjam (31 Jan 2020)

Did you work in finance?
I have heard of banking staff having overdraft as a buffer as staff cannot go into debt for non payment of loans.

Op so you initially had car loan paid with a credit card. Sell the car and pay the amount towards the debt. If the car was written off as a result of your car accident then the insurance would have paid out for it. If you got it repaired if so just sell it.
How did you get a second card?
Person must have done cash withdrawals in Italy on the card and non payment and transaction fees might bring it up to 30%interest.


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