# Website Design.. Value for Money?



## Cantona7 (10 Oct 2006)

I have an offer from a start up IT company to develop a website as follows..

8 web pages
newsletter
online booking form
contact form
free domain name
1 yr hosting
free web maintenance for 2 mth after the launch..
for €1,000
they have some sites for referencing and one looks similiar to what id need..

Am i missing something. my company is a service based in the food service/catering sector solely irish market drivem so the site is being used as a promo tool, nothing too elaborate required. Having read some threads on AAM on this subject, it looks a good deal.As a IT novice am i missing something?
thanks


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## hhhhhhhhhh (10 Oct 2006)

Cantona7 said:


> I have an offer from a start up IT company to develop a website as follows..
> 
> 8 web pages
> newsletter
> ...



You buy the domain name yourself.
Other wise they could register it in their name and rent it too you.
Use godaddy.com for most .? domains
Or letshost.ie for .ie domains

Have a look at templatemonster.com you can buy a top quality template for 60us and get it changed to your text for a couple of hundred

I would push them for 1 years maintenace because this will cost them nothing, and you are taking a gamble on a startup company


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## ivorystraws (10 Oct 2006)

Breaking it down....

* 1 yr hosting: $47.88 (€38.27 www.godaddy.com)
* Free Domain Name: $4.95 (€3.94 www.netfirms.com)
* 8 Web Pages - Do they just contain text or what? Any student can slap up 8 web pages... is this vendor charging per page? 
* Online Booking Form - for users to book your service online (is there options to choose between the various services you may offer) or is it more like a basic query form?
* 2 Months Support - What does this involve, is it just updating text, uploading new info etc?

If this is a promo tool for your business, would you not consider having a simple blog or do you just want your business to have a web presence?

For a more professional approach and depending on whether you want to become actively involved with your website, maybe you could possibly consider some of the following options/functions/features for your business online;

- Disclaimer 
- Legal Terms & Privacy Policy 
- Site Feedback 
- Site Map 
- Feedbuttons?
- Online shop??
- "Quote me" option for your potential customers
- "Featured Services"
- "Questions? Support? Comments? Suggestions? Feedback? Callbacks?"
- Downloadable "Brochures and Guides"
- "Hot Topics/News/Events"
- "Special Offers", "Vouchers", "Gift Code", "Incentives", "Comeptitions" etc
- "Free Gift Messaging"
- About Us 
- Products 
- Services 
- FAQs 
- Special Offers 
- Gallery 
- Portfolio 
- Awards 
- Testimonials 
- Press Room 
- Customers 
- Partners 
- Resources 
- Downloads 
- Advertise 
- Competition 
- Occassions 
- Print Page 
- Email Page 
- Bookmark site 
- Report a Bug! 
- Link to Us
- Useful inks

Now I know some of the above options are not warranted in your case but it will give you food for thought.

I don't suppose you will have any accessibilty options included so I won't list any of them but what about a "Search" option for users to search your site, even though it doesn't look like it will be that big but just for  handiness? 

Anyway, bottom line is I think this price seems to be exessive for what you are getting in return but maybe that's the current going rate! 
I have paid less than half the price for web development and received much more functionality by simply outsourcing it online ...elance.com, rentacoder.com etc!


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## bizz1 (10 Oct 2006)

Hi,
Check out Irish Company WebSteps [ [broken link removed] ]. 365 Euro per year all in:


A professionally designed website
Unlimited Pages
Unlimited updates to the site using the powerful online dashboard
Website hosting
Website Statistics
Your own domain name (www.yourdomain.com)
Email Hosting
User Management
Search Engine
no affiliation...just know of them through an Enterprise Ireland program.

Regards


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## SineWave (10 Oct 2006)

> so the site is being used as a promo tool, nothing too elaborate required



Maybe, you should consider a simple one-page brochure site with contact form (reduces spam) and concentrate on search-engine-optimisation afterwards?

Everything you have on your site will need updating and editing at a time and admin cost. If you can, keep it simple.


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## ivorystraws (10 Oct 2006)

Yip, whatever you have on your site will have to be maintained by someone so, as I stated previously, it's a matter of how activley involved you want to become with your website (or maybe get a student to update it on a monthly/bi-monthly basis if you don't have the time).

Just for clarification;
* A professionally designed site and unlimited updates (within reason) should be part and parcel of any offerring from any "professional" web developer.
* Website hosting is very cheap (relative to the size and traffic of your website) so as shown previously, it is neglible to the €1000 price tag you web developer has given you.
* Website Statistics are freely available on the web and relatively trivial to setup for your website (see www.google.com/analytics and www.statcounter.com for more info)
* Obtaining your own domain won't break the bank at just under €3 (as listed above)!
* Email and all email extra's usually come with domain names (see netfirms.com/domain-names for feature info)
* Updates and management of your site can be made through the vendor's hosting management panel and are included in the hosting price!
* Search Engine Optimisation of your website will be extra from most web developers and quality/price will vary wildly. Search Engine functions for your site will not cost any extra and are not difficult to implement.

So as long as you are aware of the above and recently posted facts, you may be in a better position to re-negotiate with your potential web development vendor... let him break it down exactly as to what he is providing you with and you will be left in no doubt as to whether he is providing you with value for money!!

Best of luck!


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## miju (10 Oct 2006)

that sounds like a VERY bog standard website setup and you really should be charged no more than about €300-500 for that kind of work you outline, well as least thats i charge for such minimal work


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## blacknight (11 Oct 2006)

How important is the website going to be for your business?

Will the designer / developer be around in 6 months time to make changes to it?

Who will retain copyright?

Will it have some form of content management or be purely static HTML?

€1000 for a professionally designed website is quite low, especially if you factor in all the other aspects of it from both sides.


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## ivorystraws (11 Oct 2006)

€1000 for a professionally designed website maybe quite low in Irish terms (due to the high costs of operating in Ireland) but it's quite expensive internationally. That's just a simple fact of outsourcing.

Then what constitutes professional? Would a professionally designed site be certified to specific standards.... W3C: WAI - AA & CSS or W-Mark GLOBAL Website Certification?


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## Figment (11 Oct 2006)

It is very hard to respond to the value of it without seeing previous examples  of work and getting a few more details.

* 8 web pages:* What level of design do they produce?, How many initial concepts? How many revisions? Can you update it yourself?
For projects we normally produce 2-3 initial design concepts and up to 3 sets of revisions with a quoted cost.

*Newsletter:*  How many initial concepts? How many revisions?, Do they manage it for you? How do you send it? Can you track it? Is it easy to do?

*Online booking form:* Is this an automated form which submits to a database? What data does it capture? Or is it simply a form to email script which will send you an email with the booking details?

*Contact form:* Is this an automated form which submits to a database? What data does it capture? Or is it simply a form to email script which will send you an email with the booking details?
*
Free domain name:* This costs about €8. Will it be registered in your name or the developers?
* 1 yr hosting*: 


*Free web maintenance for 2 mth after the launch.*
What is covered under "Maintenance"?


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## Cantona7 (11 Oct 2006)

Firstly thanks to all for your varied support and pointers. 

Initially, i intend the site to be a reference point for potential new prospects who can drop by and see what we are doing/offering and also promote the calibre of clients we have on board thus far. Its easy to circulate printed marketing material but if i can ally this to an online suite then it will authenticate us as a genuine market contender. There's no online selling aspect to the business so its really a virtual brochure for us. There are some companies in the market providing a service in our sector but its more an add-on for these outfits and i want to differenciate our product in the market, hence the online idea. Target market is Ireland initially.. think i will review my wish list and pitch again to the developer.


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## dahamsta (11 Oct 2006)

ivorystraws said:


> * A professionally designed site and unlimited updates (within reason) should be part and parcel of any offerring from any "professional" web developer.


Absolutely not. Some people believe that unlimited updates allows them to phone three times a day, which is completely unacceptable for the price quoted above. Updates on a static site should be quoted inline with allowed frequencies, better yet quoted separately, or best of all a CMS should be provided.



> * Website hosting is very cheap (relative to the size and traffic of your website) so as shown previously, it is neglible to the €1000 price tag you web developer has given you.


For a site like that, certainly, but price should never be the deciding factor as regards hosting. If price is going to be the deciding factor, going with the cheapest possible provider is generally a bad idea; midrange is probably where to aim for an unexperienced hoster.



> * Obtaining your own domain won't break the bank at just under €3 (as listed above)!


Ditto above. Any domain registration company that comes in below $6 is selling below cost, and inevitably will care very little about the customer as they're effectively pitching for other business. In many cases, you won't own the domain name at all, as they will list themselves as the registrant and will charge high fees to move elsewhere.



> * Email and all email extra's usually come with domain names (see netfirms.com/domain-names for feature info)


'Usually' is not accurate. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't.



> * Updates and management of your site can be made through the vendor's hosting management panel and are included in the hosting price!


Resellers often won't include access to a CP, simply because they can't. A good sign that you're at the bottom of the ladder.

adam


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## blacknight (11 Oct 2006)

dahamsta said:


> Resellers often won't include access to a CP, simply because they can't. A good sign that you're at the bottom of the ladder.



These days if they can't give access to a CP it's because they're reselling a shared hosting account and not actually using a reseller account.


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## dahamsta (11 Oct 2006)

I was talking about reselling in general Michele. Old school reselling.


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## blacknight (11 Oct 2006)

dahamsta said:


> I was talking about reselling in general Michele. Old school reselling.


Adam 
You and "old school" 

Michele


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## ivorystraws (11 Oct 2006)

Unlimited updates within reason should be exactly that, as I stated previously. It's upto the developer and their customer to iron out this agreement. Developer's shouldn't advertise that fact if they don't clarify what they mean by it.

I agree that price should never be the deciding factor when choosing hosting which is why the hosting provider I mentioned, www.GoDaddy.com, the world's largest domain name registrar and has been ranked #8 on the 2004 Inc. 500 list of the nation's fastest-growing privately held companies, #20 on the 2005 Deloitte Technology Fast 500 (growing 8,274 percent!)...etc etc.. so I'm sure you'll agree, it's not exactly a midrange provider.

Any domain name company that sells below €6 is selling below cost maybe correct and are obviously pitching for business but stating that they "inevitably will care very little about the customer" is wholly untrue and unfounded! I have bought a number of domains for $1.99 (during promotion periods or through other incentivised periods) and a after the settling period, transferred them back to GoDaddy with no problems, effectively obtaining 2 years domain registration for a much reduced cost. The domain name registrant I suggested, Netfirm, they have been in business since 01/01/1998, became a Better Business Bureau member in 09/27/2004 and are ICANN registered. Yahoo offerred domain names at one stage for €1.99 but it doesn't mean they care very little about their customer's does it?? If you register your domain name with an accredited registrar (GoDaddy or Netfirms), you'll own the domain name outright and this can be verified by using www.whois.com.

Any hosting and domain name provider worth it's salt (like the ones I listed) will provide email and extra's so yes, usually is accurate.... ""sometimes they do, sometimes they don't" is not accurate!

As Blacknight has confirmed, reseller's will include access to a management panel.


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## blacknight (11 Oct 2006)

While GoDaddy et al maybe fast growing etc., etc. they don't offer locall tech support numbers .....


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## HotdogsFolks (11 Oct 2006)

Have a look at www.scriptlance.com

I am sure some bloke in India would be happy to do all this for you (apart from the hosting) for $200~


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## ivorystraws (12 Oct 2006)

I definitely wouldn't base a decision on choosing a domain name/hosting vendor due to them not having a locall tech support number... surely in this day and age, if you did have a problem, you needed to contact their 24 x 7 tech support urgently, their online technical support center and knowledge base articles didn't answer your question, email wasn't sufficient, you don't have  access VOIP products such as skype/blueface etc. (where call costs are minimal anyway) and your current landline provider is Eircom (!).... then yes, you may have to bite the bullet and make an international call but because of all the money that you'd save on Godaddy's products in comparison to others, it would more than cover a call to them ....and that's if you do encounter a problem.


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## Woof (12 Oct 2006)

It their previous work is ok. 1k for all that sounds like great value for money.  You need to be careful if you are outsourcing to India, my experience is that while they are ok from a development perspective they are usually not great at design.


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## ivorystraws (12 Oct 2006)

Actually, this is what I have also found for the web developers that I have worked with so I simply get whatever web theme designed by a graphic design artist detailing what I require..... it doesn't always have to be india, it can be anywhere in the world where costs are much lower than here. It's a well known fact that it's nearly impossible for Irish SME's to compete (Indo's article yesterday: Soaring costs 'hitting our ability to compete') in the international scene, especially in this area.


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## blacknight (12 Oct 2006)

ivorystraws said:


> I definitely wouldn't base a decision on choosing a domain name/hosting vendor due to them not having a locall tech support number... surely in this day and age, if you did have a problem, you needed to contact their 24 x 7 tech support urgently, their online technical support center and knowledge base articles didn't answer your question, email wasn't sufficient, you don't have  access VOIP products such as skype/blueface etc. (where call costs are minimal anyway) and your current landline provider is Eircom (!).... then yes, you may have to bite the bullet and make an international call but because of all the money that you'd save on Godaddy's products in comparison to others, it would more than cover a call to them ....and that's if you do encounter a problem.



You obviously don't have much experience dealing with the average Irish SME.


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## ivorystraws (12 Oct 2006)

Thanks for that comment Blacknight, you obviously don't have much experience dealing with international clients... wonder why?

Also Cantona7, Digiweb is selling .IE domains for €29.99... seems to be one of the cheapest currently available but maybe shop around on the iedr.ie website if you want.


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## michaeloh (12 Oct 2006)

ivorystraws said:


> Thanks for that comment Blacknight, you obviously don't have much experience dealing with international clients... wonder why?
> 
> Also Cantona7, Digiweb is selling .IE domains for €29.99... seems to be one of the cheapest currently available but maybe shop around on the iedr.ie website if you want.



Do they offer domain registration on its own, or do you have to buy a hosting package also?


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## ivorystraws (12 Oct 2006)

Yes, they offer domain registration on their own.... it's not part of any package deal as far as I am aware ([broken link removed])


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## michaeloh (12 Oct 2006)

ivorystraws said:


> Yes, they offer domain registration on their own.... it's not part of any package deal as far as I am aware ([broken link removed])



Thanks for that. I misread their site. They have a three step guide thing, which I assumed meant you had to go through the three step thing to register a domain. 

I wonder if the other domain registration companies will match this price? €29.99 (excluding VAT) is a good price.


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## dahamsta (12 Oct 2006)

ivorystraws said:


> Unlimited updates within reason


Which is exactly what I said.



> I agree that price should never be the deciding factor when choosing hosting which is why the hosting provider I mentioned, , the world's largest domain name registrar and has been ranked #8 on the 2004 Inc. 500 list of the nation's fastest-growing privately held companies, #20 on the 2005 Deloitte Technology Fast 500 (growing 8,274 percent!)...etc etc.. so I'm sure you'll agree, it's not exactly a midrange provider.


I do agree: they're a budget provider, and they suck. Google for "nectartech" if you'd like to know why.



> Any domain name company that sells below €6 is selling below cost maybe correct and are obviously pitching for business but stating that they "inevitably will care very little about the customer" is wholly untrue and unfounded! I have bought a number of domains for $1.99 (during promotion periods or through other incentivised periods) and a after the settling period, transferred them back to GoDaddy with no problems


So you never used their customer support? Do you think the average joe will do what you did?



> If you register your domain name with an accredited registrar (GoDaddy or Netfirms), you'll own the domain name outright and this can be verified by using www.whois.com.


Domain Registry of America is an accredited registrar, trying googling them.

I'll leave it at that. You're right about some points, however I think you'd be better off stating your opinions as opinions, and not facts. I've been in the hosting business as both a customer and a provider for more than a decade, and I've seen very few facts.

adam


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## ivorystraws (12 Oct 2006)

My opinions are based on my experience on using a vendors product or service so are they are not facts? 

GoDaddy don't suck for me or for a multitude of other people so I guess that's your opinion, not really a fact and that's why they are the world's largest domain name registrar. Of course, they're are hosting providers dotted all over the world providing different levels of service and quality but in this instance, for Cantona7's needs, they are quite sufficient. If he chooses to go with someone else, that's grand... it's just another option.

I don't expect the average Joe to do what I did, I just provided an example of how to obtain better value domain names (so the average Joe might be able to do it if he's reading this thread).

I have used both GoDaddy's, iPower's, Yahoo's customer support and a number of Irish Hosting provider's customer support with no problems, have you personal experience of support problems with any of these? What are they? 

My whole point is that Cantona7, *could*, if he so wished, register the domain name, buy the hosting and that's two things that won't have to be included in his web development quote. Then he should make a set of requirements for what he needs or wants for his website and then shop around for the best deal! Once he's decided on who will develop his site, they will develop the site using the domain name and hosting provider he has purchased (as previously agreed by him and the developer). If he wants better hosting eventually, then upgrade... hosting can be purchased on a monthly basis anyway.

His chosen developer should be able to provide advice on his hosting needs and in addittion, there's more than enough help on the web to support him such as this forum!

I agree with some of your points and not others and I'm just providing my experience to Cantona7 so he has as wide a range of options to choose from as possible.


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## blacknight (12 Oct 2006)

ivorystraws - you might be comfortable with technology and computers, however a lot of people aren't. For a lot of our clients - regardless of their location - email support isn't enough. They are much happier being able to pick up the phone and speak to someone.


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## ivorystraws (12 Oct 2006)

Yea, I agree Blacknight, some people need a turnkey solution including support and maintenance but this should be included in the customer's requirements initially, before they go shopping around for the best deal. 
I'm just providing options, they only have to be taken on board if someone feels comfortable enough addressing them. I would think someone using an online forum would be fairly comfortable to at least do some background research (on registering domains, types of hosting etc) if they took the time out to ask a question on a forum.


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## blacknight (12 Oct 2006)

ivorystraws said:


> I would think someone using an online forum would be fairly comfortable to at least do some background research (on registering domains, types of hosting etc) if they took the time out to ask a question on a forum.



In a lot of cases we find that there is one person in a company who is a bit more IT savvy than the rest. That person may get lumbered with the task of researching the options, but isn't ideally placed to support the rest of the staff after the fact.

A lot of the smaller US (and Irish) providers don't do hosting fulltime or have much in the way of support staff. While that may not be an issue for people who can deal with email only support and the time lags etc., it's not really an option for most small Irish businesses.

I'd urge anyone looking into hosting for a business to check out the options that are available.

The cost of hosting and domain registration, be it in Ireland or overseas, is relatively low. You can get a .com and a hosting plan with proper telephone and email support etc., for under €40 per annum ex-vat.

There are several Irish companies that have their own servers either in Dublin data centres these days and who are not simply reselling someone else's, so why not look closer to home?
Have a look at  - it's a wee bit ugly at the moment, but it may serve as a starting point


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## ivorystraws (12 Oct 2006)

Well, if nothin else, non-IT savvy people reading this thread can go away with comparitive prices, quotes and a wide range of options, decide what they need... i.e. a catalogue website promoting their product, decide what they want, support maintenance etc and go shopping around.

Keeping it close to home,  is an Internet services company based in Bath, England which is funded through retained profit and derives its revenue in the following ways:

* Providing network security services, including fraud detection, application testing, code reviews, and automated penetration testing.
* Providing research data and analysis on many aspects of the Internet. Netcraft has explored the Internet since 1995 and is a respected authority on the market share of web servers, operating systems, hosting providers, ISPs, encrypted transactions, electronic commerce, scripting languages and content technologies on the Internet. 

...where it lists Rackspace the most reliable hoster in September!


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## ivorystraws (12 Oct 2006)

http://www.datapipe.com, the managed hosting company, have the second most reliable hosting company for September 2006 (according to Netcraft) plus have multiple UK numbers and addresses and provide proper telephone support (i.e. live Support 24 Hours a Day, 7 Days a Week)... it's just another alternative option.


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## blacknight (12 Oct 2006)

Lovely, but you won't find any Irish companies mentioned on there


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## ivorystraws (12 Oct 2006)

No, you definitely won't find any Irish companies listed but why would that matter? I thought it answers most of your qeueries re: full-time professional companies with proper support and the most reliable on the internet with no time lags for customer support etc... so what's missing?


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## michaeloh (12 Oct 2006)

If I perform a search in google for pages from Ireland, will it find an Irish Company with a .com address hosted in the UK, Holland or America? 

Just did a quick test and did a search for EUInternet, an Irish Hosting company. I have no links to EUInternet, but I remember hearing before that they hosted their servers outside of Ireland. According to Netcraft, their own website is hosted in the UK at Rackspace.

When I did a search on google.ie for them they were the first site listed (. 

However, when I did a search for pages from Ireland ()
they were nowhere to be seen. 

I often search for "pages from Ireland" when I am looking for local services. For this reason alone I would recommend hosting sites in an Irish Data Centre.


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## ivorystraws (16 Oct 2006)

Hosting location of website hosting is *not* soley responsible for search engine performance.

Be aware that even though you're at google.com you still get localized results. You do need to go through a non-transparent proxy with an IP from the country you want to see the results for. You might have to use a proxy: www.proxify.com, as Google redirects you to the Google-site of your own country.

If google used the IP based system to determine relevant search results, I could have a site hosted on a Irish IP address, but my site could be written entirely in Arabic and then, it would incorrectly show my site to those looking for Irish specific content!

Website search engine performance is based on a combination of factors such as; 

The websites top-level domain name (example: www.mywebsite.ie or www.mywebsite.co.uk)

Website site content language

Where the websites links come from. i.e. having only links from sites which are determined to be US to a local Top Level Domain website would make the site rank higher for US searches than the local searches. So you could also just have a .ie hosted in the US but with most links from Irish websites and that help with obtaining good rankings for Irish searches (along with other SEO tactics).
Also, you shouldn't base the search engine performance soley on Google, other search engines such as Yahoo and MSN should be tested for your respective website. Refer to the following for further details on Search Engines ([broken link removed].


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## michaeloh (16 Oct 2006)

According to this blog, [broken link removed], 
"Google checks first to see if it is a “.ie” site.  If it isn’t then it checks the IP address of the server on which the site is hosted. If the IP address belongs to a recognised Irish network then it will determine that the site is Irish".


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## michaeloh (16 Oct 2006)

ivorystraws said:


> Also, you shouldn't base the search engine performance soley on Google, other search engines such as Yahoo and MSN should be tested for your respective website.



Personally I would use google 99% of the time. If I am having problems finding something then I would probably go to Yahoo. I was surprised at the percentage that Yahoo had though. There was an extra ) on the end of that link. This one works:  [broken link removed]


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## ivorystraws (16 Oct 2006)

I don't think there's any definitive answer (not from Google anyway) on this topic. There's a lot of varying discussion and opinions surrounding the way Google ranks and localises various websites and what factors it considers and in which specific order. If someone is specifically interested in Search Engine Optimisation (for both Google and Yahoo), then http://www.seobook.com/ is a good start.


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## Meathman99 (16 Oct 2006)

Havent looked at any other related fora but its amazing how people accept 1000€ as a great price and yet there are so any people bemoaning builders making 5 - 10% profit


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