# AVC's and Redundancy



## 149oaks (13 Nov 2010)

I'm currently being made redundant but I've issues regarding AVC's that I first raised 3 years ago that are still unresolved like:
 - delays investing deductions from my Salary that on investigation show I've lost money (but we don't know how much due to the calc been done for all members), 
- ad - hoc investment delays again where I lost money, 
- switches between funds delayed where again I've lost money, and 
- charges on AVC's that were never communicated to employees. 

I have documentary evidence from the Adminstrators and an Independent Audit to confirm all this, yet none of the fixes i.e. putting the monies in my AVC A/C has happened.
Recently I also discovered that money was removed from my AVC account without my knowledge - also confirmed.
Here's my scenario without going into the details of the above (as the facts are proven), because theres such a range of issues and it would take a lot of detailed work to resolve them and they want to make me redundant could an RP50 be effected immediately without:
(a) resolving the above, and 
(b) without allowing me decide whether I want to withdraw all my AVC money, top it up or have an accurate up to date NPV to use in tax treatment of Redundancy Lump Sum?


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## LDFerguson (14 Nov 2010)

This sounds serious, especially the issue of money being withdrawn from your AVC fund without your knowledge.  Withdrawn by whom?

The issues with the AVC fall under the remit of the Pensions Board, as they have the job of policing the Pensions Acts.  Have you contacted them for advice?


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## 149oaks (14 Nov 2010)

Thanks LD.
Yes it is serious. 
1. Who withdrew the money - all I know is that it was dis-invested. There was an error in a salary run and the money shouldn't have went into AVC's in the first place. However the scary/ethical/legal question is that without my knowledge money was taken out of my AVC a/c.
2. As regards the Pension Board - a while back I contacted them and yes they were concerned about the other issues ( I believe it's a couple thousand euro). However at the time I decided to leave it "not rock the boat" as work colleagues who are Trustees were in the firing line - and hopefully things would be resolved. However it looks like I'll have to revisit this.

Now I'm being made redundant and both these issues are unresolved. So I guess my questions are:
- Can I be made redundant with these issues outstanding?
- If I am how is the NPV for AVC's ascertained to calculate my tax on my lump?
- If I am made redundant immediately and without resolution I will miss an opportunity to either top up my AVC with part of my lump, or to fully withdraw my AVC funds if the RP50 is effected? Also if I do either of these won't it affect my NPV above. So it goes back to my 1st question - can I be made redundant with these issues outstanding?


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## JoeRoberts (14 Nov 2010)

The issues with your AVC problems and your redundancy are not related.
 So the fact that you have an issue with AVC does not impact your redundancy. However, if you make an election re tax free lump etc based on incorrect information re your avc value, you may have a case against the Trustees. To move this on, it may be worthwhile sending them a letter advising them of your concerns.

How long was the delay in investment of AVC ?
A company is allowed 21 days after the end of month in which deductions took place before they need to be invested. 
The Pensions Board is your port of call if you feel agrieved. 

You should have received an AVC statement from the pension adminstrator each year. Did you not notice that the contributions figure was incorrect ?


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## TheFatMan (15 Nov 2010)

Hi 149Oaks

Not to contradict my colleagues above but your 1st port of call is the internal dispute resolution (IDR) process for the pension fund. They are required to have one and should have a clearly stated IDR process and policy. Outline your complaints and all the details in this process and submit them to the trustees of the pension scheme. request a response and clearly outlined actions and timeline to resolve the matters laid out in the complaint. They are legally required to respond to you in writing within a specific timeframe laid out in the IDR. If you still feel that they are not taking your complaints seriously and you still feel there is an issue of mal-administration of your pension funds then you can go to the pensions board. they will want to see the outcome of the IDR before they will accept a complaint.

Being made redundant doesnt impact you here as a member of the pension scheme the trustees are obliged to treat with you as they would any member. Don't worry about trustees being in the firing line, technically they are but if they havent addresses issues adequtely to date then they deserve to be. 

The NPV of a lump sum payment may only be an issue for you if this method of calculating tax relief is used by your employer on your redundancy payment. The trustees supply this information to the employer so you are off the hook here. The sums involved in the mal-administration you outline above would have to be pretty significant in order to warrant a great deal of concern about the NPV.

Dont forget to review and claim top slicing relief on your payment yourself. Your employer cant do this for you.

On your question:

 If I am made redundant immediately and without resolution I will miss an opportunity to either top up my AVC with part of my lump, or to fully withdraw my AVC funds if the RP50 is effected? Also if I do either of these won't it affect my NPV above. So it goes back to my 1st question - can I be made redundant with these issues outstanding? 

Yes you can be made redundant with these issues outstanding. You wouldnt normally be able to use any of the lump to top up AVC as part of the calculation but you could consider opening a PRSA for this and do it after the fact. If you are more than 2 years in the fund you wont be able to fully withdraw the AVCs anyway (unless you are at or above the normal retirement age for the fund).

Hope this helps somewhat


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## 149oaks (16 Nov 2010)

Thanks for the advice, I'm waiting on any developments (received nothing yet) and will update.


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## LDFerguson (16 Nov 2010)

TheFatMan said:


> Yes you can be made redundant with these issues outstanding. You wouldnt normally be able to use any of the lump to top up AVC as part of the calculation but you could consider opening a PRSA for this and do it after the fact. If you are more than 2 years in the fund you wont be able to fully withdraw the AVCs anyway (unless you are at or above the normal retirement age for the fund).


 
Problem here is that you cannot make an AVC after you've left.  If you're still in the same employment, you can make an AVC up to October 31st/November 16th of the following year and backdate your tax relief, but that ability to backdate doesn't apply if you've actually left the employment.  

That said, if it was agreed on all sides that the trustees were guilty of maladministration, Revenue might agree to allow an exceptional "after-the-event" AVC as a once-off due to the circumstances, but this would be at their discretion.


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## 149oaks (18 Dec 2010)

Just as an update on this, I've had no communication from the company for the last 7 weeks. No RP50 and I'm still being paid regularly even though I'm not at work. All I can guess is that in the backround they are working to resolve the issues.


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## PaddyBloggit (18 Dec 2010)

Then .... you should contact them for an update.


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