# Gas condenser central heating boilers: pour hot water on condenser pipes to defrost.



## obmaeve (6 Dec 2010)

We had our gas boiler replaced last year. 

We were assured that the condenser boiler was the most efficient and suitable for our purposes.  

It worked beautifully until the snow and frost arrived in January of this year, when it stopped on the coldest night of the year. 

We were told that we had to go outside ( 11pm in snow and frost - we are pensioners) and pour hot water over the condenser pipe to defrost it!  We did so, and it worked for a time, but the problem keeps recurring.  

This is a ridiculous and dangerous  situation for elderly people.  The company even has this instruction on their website. 

This system cost us over € 3,000 and is not suitable for purpose.  

My 75 year old husband cannot be expected to go outside in freezing weather in order to pour hot water over a frozen condenser pipe.  

Advice please.

We are sitting in the cold again tonight because we have had enough of trying to get this boiler going again.


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## DGOBS (6 Dec 2010)

Condensate lines should be run internally as much as possible and any external pipe should increase in size (1/2 to 1 1/4) and be insulated, other than that there is not much else you can do


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## villa 1 (7 Dec 2010)

Why, if at all possible, can't the condensate lines be connected to the internal waste pipework via a tundish and 76mm deep seal trap thus eliminating freezing problems.  I'm not sure if this is used in work practice. Then again, many heating installers are a little inexperinced when it comes to plumbing/above drainage systems.


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## obmaeve (7 Dec 2010)

*Gas condenser heating boiler*

Thank you for the response, however, this boiler was installed by a professional installation company, and we did not know that this might be a problem until it actually happened on the coldest night of the year.  Today my 75yr old husband bought insulation and inserted it around the external pipe - having first poured hot water over it to defrost it. This is ridiculous.

 My understanding of the Sale of Goods act is that if the item is not functioning as expected, then the retailer is responsible. As the manufacturer ACTUALLY has a recommendation on their website that people should pour hot water over frozen pipes, it would seem that it is an admission that the design of the system which is faulty. 

Should the manufacturer not provide proper insulating material for people whose pipes are located outside? This is a ludicrous situation and extremely dangerous for older people in the event of freezing conditions.


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## DGOBS (7 Dec 2010)

The 'get out' there I suppose for the manufacturer is the fact they do not supply
any condensate pipe with the boiler let alone insulation, so it is up to the installer to determine the correct piping and placement

Most instructions do say to install internally where possible

Villa, why would you need the tundish? as long as there is not a second trap
it won't airlock, and 'most' good boilers have a safety system to go to 'fault'
if the condensate blocks and backs up


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## villa 1 (7 Dec 2010)

to make sure you can see the water coming out of the condensate line


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## obmaeve (8 Dec 2010)

My position is that this boiler, while efficient in fine weather, does not do "what it says on the tin" when it is most needed.  Whether or not it should have been installed inside,we have been left in a situation where a very expensive heating system does not function properly when it is needed most. As these islands have had relatively mild winters until this year, it was adequate, but is not suitable for purpose in the current weather conditions


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## anastasiablu (8 Dec 2010)

We have a similar problem. It's seriously annoying and I doubt there will be any admission of fault on the part of the installers. To get over the problem for the time being, our installers (Dunlaoighre gas) have fitted a temporary condensation pipe from the boiler into the inside of the house with it dripping into a jug. Dosn't look great but will not freeze, we had to pay a call out charge for this. We may leave it like this permanently, I don't want to be out defrosting external pipes either and i'm not near 75.


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## DGOBS (8 Dec 2010)

Duty of Care would surely come into play?

I wouldn't install a tundish, as if there is a trap issue on the boiler, 
or lets say the trap was dry, then flue gasses could potentially be
released into the dwelling (not likely, but possible, seen it on oil
condensers before)

Also, if internally it is difficult to run a condensate line, there is
also add ons like condensate pumps (very small and quiet, mostly 24v) 
that allow small flexible pipes to be run, even vertically up to 4 meters
(i think)


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## becci (19 Dec 2010)

Hello

I am in the same position, and while I am not a senior citizen, I live alone and have limited finance to deal with any potential repair that the installation company will not cover.  

Also, I will be away for a couple of days over Christmas, and I am worried that the pipe will freeze again while I am away, and the job of defrosting it will be that much harder for the length of time the freeing has occurred. I am also concerned about frozen pipes within the house if the condenser pipe freezes.

Can anyone advise me if it is safe to try to defrost the pipe with an electric heater to try to more thoroughly defrost it?


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## DGOBS (19 Dec 2010)

Well, you could easily melt the pipe with it!
Try a hair dryer on a low heat setting to defrost, but leaving the heater there and
on would be dangerous in my opinion


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## newirishman (26 Dec 2010)

Had the same problem, used a hair dryer on highest setting and hot water which got it going.
As for the OP - sorry to hear but you can't make anyone responsible for the weather. 
There hasn't been such a cold spell for such a long period in the living memory of most people here in Ireland. It is very difficult to take something like this into account...


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## computerman (29 Dec 2010)

have a look at this from todays newspaper.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1342357/Central-heating-break-big-freeze-Heres-.html


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## DGOBS (29 Dec 2010)

Interesting article, most of which is correct!

Two thing strike me though.......
The do not mention the gain via the reduction of excess air in a hi-eff boiler against an
older pre-areated mixing tube
And secondly...200-300 stg for a plumber callout at the weekend! sorry guys I am moving
to the UK!


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## Dirtracer (30 Dec 2010)

I've seen 2 companies with a heated wire idea strapped to condensate pipe or running inside condensate pipe, one is 'condensate antifreze trace heater' on the Abgo website and the other is 'frost sentry' from Teddington but haven't tried either yet


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## Slash (30 Dec 2010)

computerman said:


> have a look at this from todays newspaper.
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1342357/Central-heating-break-big-freeze-Heres-.html



One thing that really disturbs me in this article is the claim that the life of a gas condensing boiler might be as little as five years. Can that be right?


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## DGOBS (31 Dec 2010)

I know of condensing gas boilers much older than this in the UK, and intergas boilers condensing design was mid 70s and they are some 15-20 years + in holland (they have been using them that long)

Manufacturers of any gas boiler say the life is 10-15 years

But again, you get what you pay for, and the premature death of most boilers is mainly due to incorrect installation, especially been connected to systems that have not be properly flushed and chemically inhibited or have fresh water introduced frequently due to leakage in the central heating circuit


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## Shane007 (6 Jan 2011)

villa 1 said:


> Why, if at all possible, can't the condensate lines be connected to the internal waste pipework via a tundish and 76mm deep seal trap thus eliminating freezing problems. I'm not sure if this is used in work practice. Then again, many heating installers are a little inexperinced when it comes to plumbing/above drainage systems.


 
You can only install a condensate drain pipe into internal waste pipework or any other for that matter if that waste pipe is fed into rainwater discharge drain. It can most certainly NOT lead into any drain leading to a septic tank. If it leads to mains sewer pipe, persmission should be sought from the local council for permission. It can lead to a purpose made and suitable soakaway.

The reason for this is that the condensate discharge from condensing boilers is acidic. This will kill the bacteria in septic tanks and eventually lead to septic tank failure. It also the reason why copper or steel pipes should not be used for this pipework. Plastic being the acceptable norm.


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## DGOBS (6 Jan 2011)

The is a product available now that can be fitted inline (full of limestone chippings) to neutralize the condensate, my only thought was though, what if the householder doesn't refill it!


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## Shane007 (6 Jan 2011)

Hi DGOBS, have you heard of a purpose made soak away for condensation boilers? I have seen one installed but everywhere I enquire, they seem not to know about them, even the boiler manufacturers. It's a neat device, with chippings inside. Just wondering if you have come across it in your travels and if so, where can they be purchased?


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## Shane007 (6 Jan 2011)

This is what I am looking for, but can't seem to find them in Ireland.
[broken link removed]


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## DGOBS (7 Jan 2011)

No, I have the same issue, the other one I saw was a small basket that you could fill yourself (and can't find where to get them either)


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## Shane007 (8 Jan 2011)

Think I have found one. Will have it on Tuesday. I will let you know if any good. It cost €30 + VAT.


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## CesKrin (28 Jan 2011)

*Inform me!*

Let me know shane soon as you have it..Is that really for €30 + VAT? Am quite interested with that..inform me please! ..Thanks!


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## Shane007 (29 Jan 2011)

Hi CesKrin, yes I have received them, used it and it's perfect. I have since ordered 5 more and used 3 of them. You just need to fill them with some limestone chippings to neutralize the condensate acidic discharge. Backfill around them also with limestone chippings. I now get Heatmerchants to order them in for me and they charge €28.00 + VAT, so an excellent price for a great product. It's called McAlpine Soakaway Condensate Unit (Heatmerchants Product Code U47831). Don't forget to insulate the pipework to the drain. I use Armaflex sticky back insulation tape. Pricey but ideal and suitable for outdoor use.


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