# Solar Panel Query



## random2011 (25 Nov 2020)

Im looking for some information on whether or not the installation of solar panels for hot water are worth it or not. I was contacted in June and received a quote for 8 panels including hot water diverter. The quote was 8k approximately. Our house is 140sq m and I thought 8 panels seemed excessive. Today the same company contacted me offering a 10 panel system at 6k as part of a Black Friday promotion. As I have no idea on the ins and outs can someone tell me if this is in fact a good deal or if there are better out there.

*WHAT IS INCLUDED IN THE OFFER? 

10 PANEL SOLAR PV ARRAY 
FREE NRG PANEL MONITORING AND SURVEILLANCE SYSTEM
FREE BER CERTIFICATE 
FREE HOT WATER DIVERTER 
FULL PRODUCT WARRANTY
FULL INSTALLATION AND AFTER SALES SERVICE.
ANNUAL SAVINGS OF UP TO €600.00
10% OFF A HEAT PUMP PURCHASE VALID FOR 12 MONTHS AFTER PV INSTALLATION 
FREE ENTRY INTO OUR BLACK FRIDAY COMPETITION TO WIN AN AIR TO WATER HEAT PUM*


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## Jazz01 (25 Nov 2020)

@random2011 

Have a read through this for loads of info on solar panels (and more)...


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## Zenith63 (25 Nov 2020)

Is that €6k before or after the grant?

Is there a battery included?

10 panels is not that many at all.  For reference I installed 14 and to be honest if I was doing it again I would put up more as the panels themselves are not expensive, the cost is in getting the guy on the roof to fit them!

For reference I paid €8k in January for x14 panels, hot water diverter, BER cert and a 5kWh battery.


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## Leo (25 Nov 2020)

The general advice in this area is to avoid anyone using pressure sales tactics to get you to sign up. Take your time, do your homework.


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## random2011 (25 Nov 2020)

Zenith63 said:


> Is that €6k before or after the grant?
> 
> Is there a battery included?
> 
> ...



Price didn't include battery and did include Grant.


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## Zenith63 (26 Nov 2020)

random2011 said:


> Price didn't include battery and did include Grant.


It seems a bit steep based on what others are being quoted at the moment (there’s a Quotes 2020 thread on the Renewable Energies forum on boards.ie that is worth a look).

You’ll never make your money back on the hot water diverter, better off without it other than for the pure techiness of it. You’ll also get a bigger grant if you get at least a small battery, so I’d drop the diverter and add a small battery. And if you have the space aim for more panels.

I got my system from NextGenPower, found them excellent to deal with. You’ll need to apply a bit of pressure to negotiate the initial price down...


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## Leo (26 Nov 2020)

PatrickSmithUS said:


> There were in the house when we bought it. I'd never look back.



We're focusing on whether the quote here represents value rather than whether solar is a good idea or not. They'd have plenty of hot water if they left the immersion heater on all day too. There's a good chance you will never break even if you pay over the odds for a solar installation.


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## sharkattack (26 Nov 2020)

6K will also get you a lot of electricity. Payback is way too long on solar panels in my opinion.


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## Jack Frost (26 Nov 2020)

We paid €8000 inclusive of grant about 18 months ago, for water heating solar tubes (as opposed to panels), it included a new gas boiler and new tank in the hot press, the house is 5 bedrooms about 150 Sq metres and 5 adults living in it. I dont know to the penny how much it saves us, but all I can say is that we very rarely need to turn on the gas or emersion for hot water, and we have never had any issues since the installation. We went with a company in Meath, and the whole installation was done in just one day, which was great. 

The only problem that I had was with the salesman, he was professional and seemed to know what he was talking about, I asked him for contact details of previous customers who had used the company before going ahead. He was pretty slow to provide these details, until I threatened to cancel the order, and eventually he gave me contact details of previous clients who actually lived in the area and i was able to get re-assurance from them. But overall I found the experience very good and we are pleased with the outcome.


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## Leo (26 Nov 2020)

Jack Frost said:


> I dont know to the penny how much it saves us, but all I can say is that we very rarely need to turn on the gas or emersion for hot water



How much did you spend on gas and electricity prior to installing the system, and how much are you spending now?


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## Jack Frost (26 Nov 2020)

Unfortunately I didnt go into that much detail, as I tend to change energy suppliers every 12 to 18 months, but anecdotally the gas and electrical bills are cheaper since the solar panels were installed. Its very difficult to do a comparrison as there are a lot of variables such as cold versus mild winter change in energy suppliers etc.. Anyway all I can say is that we are very happy with the solar panels and rarely need to use emersion.


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## Leo (26 Nov 2020)

Jack Frost said:


> Its very difficult to do a comparrison as there are a lot of variables such as cold versus mild winter change in energy suppliers etc.. Anyway all I can say is that we are very happy with the solar panels and rarely need to use emersion.



It's easier than you think. You can get mean temperature data for the past few years here / detailed downloads here. Look at your bills for units used, but as you switch regularly, you should be on around the cheapest rates which won't have fluctuated too much. It should be clear enough to show savings well in excess of €500 a year for such an investment to start to make any sense.

It's great that you are happy, but there is likely a price you are paying for that happiness. To be fair, that may be a price you feel represents value for money. Perhaps the OP here would be happier not paying out 6k, and just using the immersion on a timer and perhaps even saving money?


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## Alkers86 (26 Nov 2020)

random2011 said:


> Im looking for some information on whether or not the installation of solar panels for hot water are worth it or not. I was contacted in June and received a quote for 8 panels including hot water diverter. The quote was 8k approximately. Our house is 140sq m and I thought 8 panels seemed excessive. Today the same company contacted me offering a 10 panel system at 6k as part of a Black Friday promotion. As I have no idea on the ins and outs can someone tell me if this is in fact a good deal or if there are better out there.
> 
> *WHAT IS INCLUDED IN THE OFFER?
> 
> ...


In your opening sentence you are asking whether solar panels for hot water are worth it or not, then the specs you've included below are for Solar PV panels. These do not heat water, they provide electricity to your home. The spec also includes for a hot water diverter, what this does is diverts any extra electricity that is produced from your PV panels and is not used by your house, to heat your hot water tank like the immersion. 

In order to decide if the quote (or any other quote) is a good idea, you need to consider the following as a minimum:

What do you want solar panels for - to reduce your electricity bill or to provide hot water?
How do you heat your water currently? If gas for example, this is extremely cheap, about 5c per kWh. In this case, a solar diverter will likely never payback it's costs.
What size and spec of hot water tank do you have currently?
How much electricity do you use? Is there someone at home during the day typically (when the panels will produce electricity)?
What orientation is your roof?
In terms of this specific quote:

What wattage are the panels?
What capacity inverter is supplied?
What is the warranty? The individual items are actually cheap enough, the cost in install (and also repair / replacement) is the labour & roof access.
I would ask for money off the price in place of hte diverter, pending your answers to the above questions.


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## Zenith63 (30 Nov 2020)

random2011 said:


> main roof is W/E but we also have a S/N second roof over extension.


The conventional knowledge that a South facing roof is required or even ideal is starting to go away now, because the huge peak in generation you get with a South facing array is not that easily used.  A battery can help mitigate this, but batteries are expensive and will often only charge at 2.5kW, while your South facing array might be generating 4-5kW at its peak.

An East/West array will not peak to the same level (my 5kW of East/West panels peaks at somewhere around 3.5kW) but will start generating much earlier in the morning and much later in the evening.  Mine are generating enough to cover the background load of a sleeping house from 05:30am until 21:00 on a good summer day!


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## Leo (30 Nov 2020)

Zenith63 said:


> ut will start generating much earlier in the morning and much later in the evening.



Yeah, and those times are typically higher-demand periods in most homes. I've seem more recommendations for east-west lately, particularly in the absence of feed-in tariffs and where there is no battery to absorb peak production in the middle of the day.


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## Fidgety (3 Dec 2020)

Zenith63 said:


> A battery can help mitigate this, but batteries are expensive and will often only charge at 2.5kW, while your South facing array might be generating 4-5kW at its peak.



Thanks for the informative and helpful posts, Zenith63. How long before we see battery performance and price fall to levels which would capture more of this surplus energy?


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## Zenith63 (4 Dec 2020)

Fidgety said:


> Thanks for the informative and helpful posts, Zenith63. How long before we see battery performance and price fall to levels which would capture more of this surplus energy?


I'm only a layperson in this, but looking at what you pay for a solar battery I think the problem is just about scale at this point, not the technology or underlying cell cost.

Li-ion battery packs for cars cost $1200/kWh in 2010, $150/kWh in 2019 and are forecast to drop below $100/kWh in the coming few years.  But my solar battery cost me $500/kWh, so there's a fair bit of fat in there that would be quickly removed by building these things at mass scale.

As much as I love the techiness of the solar panels on my house, it would be so much cheaper, more efficient and better for the environment for electricity suppliers to build solar farms and battery storage at grid scale.  Grid storage is currently being done at a Li-ion price of $175/kWh apparently.  Great news to see Ireland's first grid storage approved recently in Kellistown, Carlow.


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## Alkers86 (4 Dec 2020)

Fidgety said:


> Thanks for the informative and helpful posts, Zenith63. How long before we see battery performance and price fall to levels which would capture more of this surplus energy?


It's only surplus to the homeowner, it does get fed to the grid.
If/when a feed in tarrif is introduced, the economics of homeowner battery systems will become even less appealing


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## Sionna (27 Jan 2022)

I have a quote for a 5.3 sytem with an Eddi (no battery) for 8.3 k (before grant) including BER. Is that good value?


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## PebbleBeach2020 (28 Jan 2022)

Sionna said:


> I have a quote for a 5.3 sytem with an Eddi (no battery) for 8.3 k (before grant) including BER. Is that good value?


How much is the grant? And how many panels?


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## AJAM (4 Feb 2022)

My 10 panel 3.5 KW array cost 4,600 after the grant in 2020, including a hot water diverter. 
LVP Renewables were the company.


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## dshakey (5 Mar 2022)

Sionna said:


> I have a quote for a 5.3 sytem with an Eddi (no battery) for 8.3 k (before grant) including BER. Is that good value?


Who was that with?


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