# Problem with drylining - advice required



## Scoocher (2 Apr 2010)

Hi all,

Currently building a house. I got planning in 2007 so don't need to get it energy rated but decided to use the Kingspan futureproof guide to insulation and am attempting to get something near an A3 rating by following their guidelines. Therfore the wall insulation specification for my house is 60mm Kooltherm in cavity and 49.5(40+9.5) kooltherm drylining.

However the drylining has just been completed and I've noticed that they have used metal plugs for all fixings with typically 12/15 of them in a standard 8x4 sheets and 3/4 in all window reveals!!!
I think I know the answer to this question but is the creating one giant cold briding problem on all my walls, is the dryling ineffective as a result or does it still offer some level of insulation, and is there anyway that I can fix this problem without ripping them all down!  
Thank you in advance for any advice you can give,


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## Mystic Oil (4 Apr 2010)

Ring the Kingspan helpline for a definitive answer, but I doubt you'll ever notice the difference. The metal fixings are hollow tubes, so the thernal bridging effect of each one is minute.


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## Vincenzo (8 Apr 2010)

Are there plastic mushroom fixings that can be used instead?


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## dedelus (19 Apr 2010)

Yes,  there are plastic mushroom fixings for foam backed plasterboard


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## madfella65 (27 Apr 2010)

Scoocher said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Currently building a house. I got planning in 2007 so don't need to get it energy rated but decided to use the Kingspan futureproof guide to insulation and am attempting to get something near an A3 rating by following their guidelines. Therfore the wall insulation specification for my house is 60mm Kooltherm in cavity and 49.5(40+9.5) kooltherm drylining.
> 
> ...


 

From memory I dont think they are metal - not sure what material they are but I think the thermal conductivity of the material is minor


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## Buildright (3 May 2010)

Scoocher said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Currently building a house. I got planning in 2007 so don't need to get it energy rated but decided to use the Kingspan futureproof guide to insulation and am attempting to get something near an A3 rating by following their guidelines. Therfore the wall insulation specification for my house is 60mm Kooltherm in cavity and 49.5(40+9.5) kooltherm drylining.
> 
> ...




I think the drylining plugs are the least of your worries. The dry lining is fairly ineefectual as it is not continuous and is compromised by sockets and window reveals. Also kingspan overstate the performance of their boards, which die to wall ties and placement in cavities can perform at 0.75 u-value rather than the 0.22 stated. The biggest issue however is the heat loss at cold bridges such as rising walls. While you still can, i'd now compensate by over insulating the roof, using natural materials like cellulose and softboard along with airtightness measures. We've moved on a lot in the last 3 years from kingspan notion of future proof. PIR board is not dense or heavy enough to store heat. Secondly, placing slivers of insulation inside a cavity is dangerous as it can move the dew point inwards. But you'll find this out in 3 or 4 years. There's future proofing for you.


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## Scoocher (4 May 2010)

thanks for the reply buildright, even if it does scare me!! 

How can a reputable company like Kingspan produce and stand over this type of document if it can lead to condensation issues with builds that follow its guidelines?

Can overcompensation of insulation of the roof space help? Yes it limits heat loss through the ceilings but how can this reduce the heat loss through the walls?

Can a HRV system limit the issue of condensation?


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## rmdt (5 May 2010)

The metal plugs do create a cold bridge, however they are recommended over the plastic plugs as in the case of a fire the plastic ones can melt, increasing the risk of the slabs falling off the wall.

During the really cold weather you could clearly see the shape of the plugs showing through on our external walls.  This occurred one evening in our utility room. The utility room was full of steam at the time, so not a usual occurance, but it did show up the fact that there were cold bridges!!!


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## 10amwalker (5 May 2010)

*move dew point inwards*

Buildright,

I have a timber frame holiday home built about 10 years ago and at the end of last year I noticed what looks like mould/water marks along the North facing plasterboard dormer roof- my bedroom.

Sorry I probably have not described that in a technical fashion but they look as if they it is only occurring where the joists are- they are equally spread out.

I was in the house for the May bank holiday week and have noticed that the marks are now occurring on internal plasterboard walls- not just ones that are directly under the roof.

I do have central heating in the house and there is no sign of a leak from the heating.
Is it connected to condensation/insulation/dew points and cold bridging.

Becoming very concerned.. any advice ?


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## Mystic Oil (5 May 2010)

Buildright said:


> I think the drylining plugs are the least of your worries. The dry lining is fairly ineefectual as it is not continuous and is compromised by sockets and window reveals. Also kingspan overstate the performance of their boards, which die to wall ties and placement in cavities can perform at 0.75 u-value rather than the 0.22 stated. The biggest issue however is the heat loss at cold bridges such as rising walls. While you still can, i'd now compensate by over insulating the roof, using natural materials like cellulose and softboard along with airtightness measures. We've moved on a lot in the last 3 years from kingspan notion of future proof. PIR board is not dense or heavy enough to store heat. Secondly, placing slivers of insulation inside a cavity is dangerous as it can move the dew point inwards. But you'll find this out in 3 or 4 years. There's future proofing for you.



OK, I feel that I must pull you on this one, my BS radar is on high alert.

I have absolutely no connection with Kingspan, or any other manufacturer, other than as a consumer of their products. Neither do I have a particular grá for PIR/PUR boards, but they have their place.

_*The dry lining is fairly ineefectual as it is not continuous and is compromised by sockets and window reveals.

*_You can't possibly know this from the information provided by the OP.

_*Also kingspan overstate the performance of their boards, which die to wall ties and placement in cavities can perform at 0.75 u-value rather than the 0.22 stated.

*_Really? And you can substantiate that claim? Unlike the manufacturers (Kingspan in this case) who have taken their product through testing in independent labs in order that they may be awarded Agreément certification?

_*The biggest issue however is the heat loss at cold bridges such as rising walls.

*_Again, I would ask how you could possibly know this, given that you (presumably) are not privy to the drawings of the OPs project?

_*While you still can, i'd now compensate by over insulating the roof, using natural materials like cellulose and softboard along with airtightness measures.

*_On the face of it, this is fairly sound advice. However, in the absence of *detailed information* on the OPs design, it is meaningless, and potentially harmful advice.

_*We've moved on a lot in the last 3 years from kingspan notion of future proof.

*_Would you care to offer enlightenment here? I'd be interested in hearing about this revolutionary new breakthrough in the Laws of Thermodynamics.

_*PIR board is not dense or heavy enough to store heat.

*_This one is a true gem. Insulation products are designed to mitigate the transmission of heat. I have never heard of one which was intentionally designed to store heat. Would you care to elaborate?

_*Secondly, placing slivers of insulation inside a cavity is dangerous as it can move the dew point inwards. But you'll find this out in 3 or 4 years. There's future proofing for you.

*_At no point in the OPs post did I find mention of "slivers of insulation". Rather, I heard mention of a 60mm board in a (100mm?) cavity, which is perfectly acceptable practice.

No wonder Scoocher is sounding worried, given your alarmist, ill-informed and unfounded scaremongering.


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## cbyr1983 (7 Jul 2010)

As I've been saying in other posts I was thinking about doing sdome dry-lining - buying the masterials and getting a plasterer.

One guy gave me a list of materials - said to buy "mushroom fixings".

The more I thought about and read around I was also concerned that these would (i) cause cold bridging, (ii) give me a load of "nail pops".

So what is the story here - are you better off bonding to the wall with a minimum number of fixings?

What about the fixings popping back??


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