# BOI, incorrect rate



## Timmy.s (27 Oct 2017)

Hello all

I think my earlier post was deleted due to a vague thread title,  my apologies.

When my fixed term came to an end I was offered 

1.Tracker variable ECB + 1.25% at a rate of 5.250%
2. Fixed 2008, 09, 10, 12 and 2017 at a rate of 5.390, 5.490% and 5.890%
3. Variable at a rate of 5.340%

The letter states if I dont reply within 30 days I go onto the standard homeloan variable rate of 5.250%. This rate does not match the above variable rate? Is this a misprint?

Thank you
Tim


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## moneymakeover (27 Oct 2017)

Unless they mean the tracker variable, that could be the standard homeloan?


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## Timmy.s (27 Oct 2017)

Im unsure.  Im in the process of contacting the bank to request all documentation regarding the mortgage.  At the moment im not sure if I replied to them and if I did what rate I ticked. What is the wording used to request such information regarding the mortgage correspondences does anybody know? To me it says if I dont reply ill go onto the variable ecb  rate of 5.250% yet the variable rate above says 5.340%.


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## bmkearney (30 Oct 2017)

Hi Timmy.s I in a similar situation as yourself. 
I took my mortgage out in 2005 1st year on the special fixed for first time buyers. In 2006 I fixed for 2 years. In 2008 I fixed for 5 years. So was never on a tracker. But in my 2008 rates offer letter I was offered had 2, 3, 5 year fixed rates plus SVR plus ECB tracker +1.25%. Now were I believe I have a case is that on this letter it advised me if I did not select or returned this form by 1/09/2008 my mortgage would revert to a variable rate of 5.500% and when you look and the rates box above this line it represented the ECB variable +1.25% rate not the SVR which was 5.65%.

Also the paragraph below is from the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission website:

_Moving to a tracker rate - but only if this was offered to you at the time you signed up for the fixed rate. Look at the documentation your lender sent you when you signed up to a fixed rate, as this will detail what your interest rate will revert to after the fixed rate term ends. If a tracker mortgage was one of the options, then your lender must offer you the tracker rate, even if they are no longer widely available. If you do not have the documentation, contact your lender and ask for a copy_


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## Timmy.s (30 Oct 2017)

Hello bmkearney. Can i ask what stage you are at? Have you contacted the bank or anyone regarding the situation? I posted off a letter on friday requesting correspondence from when i came off the fixed rate. Fingers crossed we have a case.


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## bmkearney (30 Oct 2017)

Obudsman waiting to see if Central Bank forces banks to look at accounts they deemed not effected so he is waiting on outcome before he takes it any further.


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## Timmy.s (31 Oct 2017)

Havent seen paper work just yet but seemingly i ticked the variable rate box of 5.34 %. Should i give up or is it worth pursuing?


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## Timmy.s (31 Oct 2017)

Ok here is another angle. Lets say I definitely ticked a box indicating a variable rate of 5.34% when my first year fixed term came to an end. Now observe this quote form my original loan offer ''if the lender offers the borrower a choice then in either case , in accordance with general condition 7(b) of the offer letter, the interest rate applicable to the loan will be a variable interest rate.  This variable interest rate may vary upwards or downwards.  the interest rate shall be no more than 1.25 above (repo rate) *FOR THE TERM OF THE LOAN. *The bit in bold in the part im interest in.  If I fixed tomorrow for 1 year, should the bank offer me a tracker rate when that fixed term comes to an end?


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## LadyHB (1 Nov 2017)

@Timmy.s The wording is ambiguous and confusing IMHO. Where it says for the "term of the loan" you would assume that the option of a tracker will always be available to you. Given that  the tracker is built into your contract, it doesn't make sense that you defaulted to a standard homeloan variable rate. I have similar wording on my contract/similar options offered. I think you need to identify the point when your fixed rate expired and you_ weren't _offered a tracker rate  - that is likely to be the point your contract was broken regardless of whether you defaulted to a standard variable or chose a fixed rate at that point. You should request all mortgage documentation from BOI and have it reviewed.


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## Timmy.s (1 Nov 2017)

LadyHB said:


> @Timmy.s The wording is ambiguous and confusing IMHO. Where it says for the "term of the loan" you would assume that the option of a tracker will always be available to you. Given that  the tracker is built into your contract, it doesn't make sense that you defaulted to a standard homeloan variable rate. I have similar wording on my contract/similar options offered. I think you need to identify the point when your fixed rate expired and you_ weren't _offered a tracker rate  - that is likely to be the point your contract was broken regardless of whether you defaulted to a standard variable or chose a fixed rate at that point. You should request all mortgage documentation from BOI and have it reviewed.



So confusing.  As I said. I was never on a tracker. I came from fixed rate to a variable rate ( by choice says the bank) Im kind of looking for someone that may be in the same position or have experience with this. I still think its very very unlikely that they could offer me a tracker but I wont know until i discuss it with a FA along with the original contract.  If anyone could link a discussion on a similar situation it would be great.


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## Omega143 (3 Nov 2017)

Hi . Basically , if you had tracker and moved off it that's fine . If your original contract states that you can have tracker for life of loan , the bank should have sent this as an option when rechoosing. We had this , but it was not offered to us as option when fixed rate over . When enquired with bank they moved us back onto tracker and returned overpayments . This was back in 2014 , with 5 years interest returned . We now have received letter from bank that will be back onto us regarding compensation . Anything else will be a bonus . Stay tight and let the process work through .


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## Timmy.s (3 Nov 2017)

Omega143 said:


> Hi . Basically , if you had tracker and moved off it that's fine . If your original contract states that you can have tracker for life of loan , the bank should have sent this as an option when rechoosing. We had this , but it was not offered to us as option when fixed rate over . When enquired with bank they moved us back onto tracker and returned overpayments . This was back in 2014 , with 5 years interest returned . We now have received letter from bank that will be back onto us regarding compensation . Anything else will be a bonus . Stay tight and let the process work through .



Ah but i came from fixed to variable rate. Just wondering if i fixed now should the bank offer a tracker after the fixed rate.


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## Timmy.s (30 Nov 2017)

So just to update.  I received a response today.  Its just a generic response stating that all cases will be investigated by year end 2017.


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## maunie (30 Nov 2017)

Everyone getting those generic letters. I got mine months ago and I'm still waiting for a decision


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## Timmy.s (30 Nov 2017)

maunie said:


> Everyone getting those generic letters. I got mine months ago and I'm still waiting for a decision



May i ask if you followed up on their response or are you just going to wait for the investigation to finish? Im currently setting up a meeting with Padraic kissane office.


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## maunie (30 Nov 2017)

I've called them twice a week and I'm told I'm affected and a letter will issue


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## Timmy.s (5 Feb 2018)

I received another letter today.  It's just making me aware of the different rates available at the moment. I'm not sure if I should ring the bank or wait until p.kissane office get back to me. How long should I leave it. It's about 7 weeks since I heard from both.


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## Timmy.s (19 Jun 2018)

Just thought I would update this thread.  Basically the bank said they would get back to me this month. I received a letter last week stating that it will now be early July when they get back to me.  They must be flat out busy.  Has anyone got anywhere faster by ringing them?


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## Duffer (21 Jun 2018)

Omega143 said:


> Hi . Basically , if you had tracker and moved off it that's fine . If your original contract states that you can have tracker for life of loan , the bank should have sent this as an option when rechoosing. We had this , but it was not offered to us as option when fixed rate over . When enquired with bank they moved us back onto tracker and returned overpayments . This was back in 2014 , with 5 years interest returned . We now have received letter from bank that will be back onto us regarding compensation . Anything else will be a bonus . Stay tight and let the process work through .



Hi,

This is my EXACT situation, Bank of ireland never gave us the option of tracker in 2010, only option we had was for 3x different fixed rates.

In mid 2013 they contacted us and put us back on a tracker, according to central bank they had to etc.
I’ve been chasing them up for ages now about my refund of interest and compensation but only hitting a brick wall and getting generic letters stating that the investigation is ongoing.

Any word or more updates from people with similar situation


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## Timmy.s (5 Jul 2018)

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I received a response from the bank. They note that they received my letter of complaint but it was a letter of request and not complaint. I dont know where I stand now.  Ill post the response minus personal details. When I spoke with Padraic Kissane office they thought I had a very good case. What do you guys think?











Its probably no big deal but in my original loan off the wording for the repo rate is ''operations minimum rate'' but in the banks recent response it states ''operations minimum bid rate''. Just a typo? do they mean the same thing?


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## todo (5 Jul 2018)

Would it be possible to see the Oct 2007 Mortgage form of Authorisation, you should cover any identifying information.

It seems bazaar that you would choose the higher rate.


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## Timmy.s (5 Jul 2018)

todo said:


> Would it be possible to see the Oct 2007 Mortgage form of Authorisation, you should cover any identifying information.
> 
> It seems bazaar that you would choose the higher rate.




I have a copy and I did choose the standard var rate due to bad advice. (not from bank)


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## todo (5 Jul 2018)

I thought there may have been some ambiguity in the wording, but it appears that you knew what you were doing. I don't see any case here.


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## Timmy.s (5 Jul 2018)

Its more the wording of '' for the term of the loan'' in post #8.  



Timmy.s said:


> Ok here is another angle. Lets say I definitely ticked a box indicating a variable rate of 5.34% when my first year fixed term came to an end. Now observe this quote form my original loan offer ''if the lender offers the borrower a choice then in either case , in accordance with general condition 7(b) of the offer letter, the interest rate applicable to the loan will be a variable interest rate.  This variable interest rate may vary upwards or downwards.  the interest rate shall be no more than 1.25 above (repo rate) *FOR THE TERM OF THE LOAN. *The bit in bold in the part im interest in.  If I fixed tomorrow for 1 year, should the bank offer me a tracker rate when that fixed term comes to an end?


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## todo (6 Jul 2018)

From a legal point of view it depends on the contents of the Mortgage form of Authorisation in Oct 2007.

But for sure there is ambiguity, the original contract states what the rate will be for the term of the loan. If they didn't make it clear when you signed the Mortgage form of Authorisation in Oct 2007 that you could not go back to your tracker margin then, in my view this is a breach of the consumer protection code.

I would get Padraig Kissane, to fight this through the FSPO for you.


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## Timmy.s (6 Jul 2018)

Thanks todo. I'm awaiting a response from p.kassane office.


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## Timmy.s (6 Jul 2018)

todo said:


> From a legal point of view it depends on the contents of the Mortgage form of Authorisation in Oct 2007.
> 
> But for sure there is ambiguity, the original contract states what the rate will be for the term of the loan. If they didn't make it clear when you signed the Mortgage form of Authorisation in Oct 2007 that you could not go back to your tracker margin then, in my view this is a breach of the consumer protection code.
> 
> I would get Padraig Kissane, to fight this through the FSPO for you.




Is this the form you are talking about? When I choose the standard variable rate it was never discussed regarding going to a tracker rate in the future. Should the bank have informed me when the tracker rate was been scrapped?


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## todo (6 Jul 2018)

I can't see that the MFA states what the interest rate will be after the fixed period expires.

It does state the following at point 5.
*"5. Save as set out in this Form of Authorisation, all the terms and conditions applicable to the Loan remain unchanged"
*
In my view the condition "*FOR THE TERM OF THE LOAN" *in your original agreement still stands.

I think you have a very strong case.

It also goes to show that the central bank is not on top of this, as Bank of Ireland believe that they have already found all impacted customers, and are not currently being challenged by the CB.

Please do keep us informed. I do believe that Padraig Kissane will get this tracker restored, I would not go to the FSO on your own.


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## Timmy.s (6 Jul 2018)

todo said:


> I can't see that the MFA states what the interest rate will be after the fixed period expires.
> 
> It does state the following at point 5.
> *"5. Save as set out in this Form of Authorisation, all the terms and conditions applicable to the Loan remain unchanged"
> ...



I will update of course.  Its still double dutch to me.  The P.kassane office can take a while to reply so ill sit tight.
Can I just clarify todo that after my fixed term came to an end I opted for the standard variable rate. I feel sometimes posters have not read the whole thread.


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## todo (8 Jul 2018)

From the parts of the MFA you have posted I can't see that it states what rate you return to after the fixed rate period ends.

Therefore the original term of the loan should come into effect. Since your original terms contained "the interest rate shall be no more than 1.25 above (repo rate) *FOR THE TERM OF THE LOAN.*" then I think you have a a very strong argument.

There is a consumer protection code, though its enforcement is questionable, also if there is any ambiguity then the benefit of that ambiguity should fall on-behalf of the consumer.

Banks of Ireland are supposed to be now customer centric, they way they have treated there own staff and how they continue to treat customers in relation to the tracker examination is in my view disgusting, they should be ashamed of themselves. I certainly wouldn't like to say I'm an employee of BOI.


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## peemac (8 Jul 2018)

Edit - seems they say that they can offer alternatives at end of fixed period .

However,  in the original document its states that in absence of choosing another fixed rate your rate will move to 4.25% (rate at the time) variable which is ecb + 1.25%


Then in the document sent to you at the end of the fixed rate period it states that the rate you will rollover to is the standard variable rate.

So the second document is wrong and this is where I'd be looking for a correction to be made.


Btw a variable rate of 5.34% apr probably equates to a headline rate of 5.25%


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## Timmy.s (8 Jul 2018)

peemac said:


> Edit - seems they say that they can offer alternatives at end of fixed period .
> 
> However,  in the original document its states that in absence of choosing another fixed rate your rate will move to 4.25% (rate at the time) variable which is ecb + 1.25%
> 
> ...




Will that correction benefit my case?


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## peemac (9 Jul 2018)

Timmy.s said:


> Will that correction benefit my case?


It should as then the default rate in the original fixed rate document should then be applied.


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## Timmy.s (9 Jul 2018)

peemac said:


> It should as then the default rate in the original fixed rate document should then be applied.



Why a default rate? In 2007 I choose the standard variable rate. Sorry for the questions I'm just trying to get this clear in my head .


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## peemac (10 Jul 2018)

Timmy.s said:


> Why a default rate? In 2007 I choose the standard variable rate. Sorry for the questions I'm just trying to get this clear in my head .



In post 20 in their response to you it states that the fixed rate contract stated that at the end of the fixed rate period the rate would go to a variable rate that would be 1.25% above ecb rate (a tracker). That is the default rate for when the fixed rate ended.

They then sent you an option list that stated if you did not make a choice, the rate would go to a standard variable rate.

This was incorrect and forced you to make a decision based on incorrect assumption. This letter should have stated that if you do not make a decision, your rate will go to a 1.25% tracker as detailed in the fixed rate instruction.

So as the information sent to you was incorrect, it should be withdrawn and you revert t the default position of a 1.25% tracker


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## Timmy.s (10 Jul 2018)

Thank you peemac. That is very clear for me now. I'll try and get through to p.kassane office again tomorrow.


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