# Appealing penalty points: 2 penalty points & €80 fine for not stopping at "STOP".



## conork92 (20 Aug 2011)

got a letter in the door this mornin for 2 penalty points and an 80 euro fine for not stopping at a stop sign . . .. i didnt stop fully just rolled up to the stop sign seen no cars coming so drove on . . . but on the letter the address is wrong and one of the numbers is missing from the reg of my car .  . would there be much point in appealing this ??? has anyone appealed before ?? how do you go about appealing ??


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## toby2449 (24 Aug 2011)

if the reg number is missing a number any judge worth his salt will dismiss the penalty. Talk to your solisitor, but you have a very strong case for appeal! By the way do they have a photo of your car committing the offense??


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## ajapale (24 Aug 2011)

conork92 said:


> i didnt stop fully just rolled up to the stop sign seen no cars coming so drove on .


 
Did you see any pedestrians, cyclyists or other vunerable road users? Did you see the Guard?

Years ago in California I observed the "California Stop", this entailed driving along at close to the 30mph limit and then stabbing the brakes at the STOP sign bringing the car to very brief but noticeable stop.


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## lionstour (24 Aug 2011)

conork92 said:


> got a letter in the door this mornin for 2 penalty points and an 80 euro fine for not stopping at a stop sign . . .. i didnt stop fully just rolled up to the stop sign seen no cars coming so drove on . . . but on the letter the address is wrong and one of the numbers is missing from the reg of my car . . would there be much point in appealing this ??? has anyone appealed before ?? how do you go about appealing ??


 
You broke the law.  You were in the wrong. Go ahead... appeal.


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## dereko1969 (24 Aug 2011)

I don't think you'll get many different replies than you already got on boards
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056364036
as pointed out there it's likely the judge will allow the Garda to change the details at the hearing, you've no other evidence that you didn't break the law so it's unlikely you'd get away with it and would risk an additional 2 points.


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## Daisy2012 (24 Aug 2011)

Actually, I got a speeding ticket handed to me by a guard back in 2004 or so. He wrote my reg number down incorrectly on the ticket. I was doing 36 or so in an unsignposted 30 mph zone, before anyone gets on my case.

I rang up the fines office and told them that the charge was surely incorrect as I wasn't in a car with that registration number. The guard had written 00 D instead of 02D. The fines office told me to send it in to them with a letter, and a few weeks later they sent it back saying that it had been withdrawn (or words to that effect) and the points weren't added to my licence and I didn't have to pay the fine.

Might be worth trying.


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## CMCR (24 Aug 2011)

Reading through the above, it explains why road traffic legislation is _the _most contested legislation in Irish courts. 

It never fails to surprise me the number of people who admit that they have broken the law and committed a traffic offence, but who do not accept the penalty and subsequently seek to get off on some administrative technicality or other. 

Why not accept that you have committed an offence, accept the points and change your driver behaviour in future?


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## dereko1969 (24 Aug 2011)

Daisy2012 said:


> Actually, I got a speeding ticket handed to me by a guard back in 2004 or so. He wrote my reg number down incorrectly on the ticket. I was doing 36 or so in an unsignposted 30 mph zone, before anyone gets on my case.
> 
> I rang up the fines office and told them that the charge was surely incorrect as I wasn't in a car with that registration number. The guard had written 00 D instead of 02D. The fines office told me to send it in to them with a letter, and a few weeks later they sent it back saying that it had been withdrawn (or words to that effect) and the points weren't added to my licence and I didn't have to pay the fine.
> 
> Might be worth trying.


 
Things have changed since 2004.


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## LS400 (24 Aug 2011)

toby2449 said:


> if the reg number is missing a number any judge worth his salt will dismiss the penalty. Talk to your solisitor, but you have a very strong case for appeal! By the way do they have a photo of your car committing the offense??


 
There is a strong chance the picture will show a non moving car!!


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## PetrolHead (25 Aug 2011)

I'm fed up of the number of posts on here that say "I broke the law but because of x-y-z admin issue I don't think I should have to pay the fine or suffer the consequences..."

Suck it up people.....!!!!!


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## SparkRite (25 Aug 2011)

PetrolHead said:


> I'm fed up of the number of posts on here that say "I broke the law but because of x-y-z admin issue I don't think I should have to pay the fine or suffer the consequences..."
> 
> Suck it up people.....!!!!!




And I'm fed up with hearing and reading about the amount of mistakes occurring with the issuing of tickets/fines/summonses/notifications etc. 
If the authorities entrusted with the administration and enforcing the  upkeep of our laws cannot collect and collate evidence in a correct and efficient manner then maybe those people shouldn't be doing it in the first place.
If evidence of an alleged offence is not properly collected and presented than this will lead to total mayhem within the judicial system.

Where do you stop?? EG. One or two or three letter(s) wrong on the reg, one or two or three letter(s) wrong in the defendants name? Wrong location of the alleged offence, ("Ah sure its only round the corner, its close enough") ? Or do we draw the line at "Well your Honour it was the same coloured car that ran down and killed the woman, and I was fairly close with the reg". (extreme I know, but just to make a point)

NONE of these or similar errors should be allowable and if judges were not so quick to amend them in court, then maybe, just maybe, the Gardai might be a bit more diligent in their processes.

PetrolHead, if say you stopped for 10secs to let Mrs. Petrolhead out of the car on a clearway one quiet afternoon. Then some months later you receive a summons to court to answer the charge of non payment of fixed  penalty (that you never received). The summons has misspelled your name and wrong car reg and say wrong date, but at the back of your mind you vaguely remember dropping off Mrs.Petrolhead somewhere/sometime close to the location mentioned.

Would you (be honest) be happy to "Suck it up" as you so eloquently put it?


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## tinkerbell (25 Aug 2011)

Now I am just guessing but possibly the Garda wrote down the details on his Fixed Charge Notice notepad and his figures were misinterpreted for the reg when the Notice issued by Thurles?   Or he used a handheld device and entered the wrong numbers in error?   Both human errors easily made considering the huge amount of offences every day?  Garda could even possibly identify the driver in court as the person he stopped?  Wouldnt have a leg to stand on if so?  Photos are only for speeding AFAIK?   Questions, questions and more questions!


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## lionstour (25 Aug 2011)

SparkRite said:


> And I'm fed up with hearing and reading about the amount of mistakes occurring with the issuing of tickets/fines/summonses/notifications etc.
> If the authorities entrusted with the administration and enforcing the upkeep of our laws cannot collect and collate evidence in a correct and efficient manner then maybe those people shouldn't be doing it in the first place.
> If evidence of an alleged offence is not properly collected and presented than this will lead to total mayhem within the judicial system.
> 
> ...


 
And I am fed up of people excusing others who openly break the law and look for stupid loopholes to get off. Clogging up the system and costing the state and me as a tax payer a fortune.

The poster admitted he was wrong. HE broke the law. Now face the consequences.

Any other little anecdotal rubbish just gets in the way of that fact.


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## SparkRite (25 Aug 2011)

lionstour said:


> And I am fed up of people excusing others who openly break the law and look for stupid loopholes to get off. Clogging up the system and costing the state and me as a tax payer a fortune.
> 
> The poster admitted he was wrong. HE broke the law. Now face the consequences.
> 
> Any other little anecdotal rubbish just gets in the way of that fact.



You have missed my point TOTALLY!!

I am not in any shape or form condoning (nevermind "excusing" as you say) anyone who breaks the law and admits it, trying to get off on an administrative error.

The collection of evidence and its presentation is paramount in any successful prosecution. Gardai know this but in many cases appear to have become lax about it. Especially relating to motor offences, "Sure I'll get the judge to amend it......"

As regards my opining being "anecdotal rubbish" I just want to let it be known that a few years ago, while serving as a jury member, (in a very serious case) evidence that would have secured a conviction was disallowed owing to the Gardai not securing a *second* search warrant on a follow-up search of the defendants premises. They knew that this warrant should have been obtained but were not diligent in the execution of their duty. Hence a "guilty" man walked free. That is my point.

Be aware that these rules/regulations/processes are there to protect the innocent as well  as convict the guilty and should not be administered in a flippant or lax  manner, which unfortunately, or so it seems, they often are.
Most motoring offences are simple to prove and therefore obtain a successful prosecution if the simple outlined process is adhered to fully.


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## hastalavista (25 Aug 2011)

conork92 said:


> got a letter in the door this mornin for 2 penalty points and an 80 euro fine for not stopping at a stop sign . . .. i didnt stop fully just rolled up to the stop sign seen no cars coming so drove on . . . but on the letter the address is wrong and one of the numbers is missing from the reg of my car .  . would there be much point in appealing this ??? has anyone appealed before ?? how do you go about appealing ??



in what way  is the address wrong? 

Re the reg number being wrong I agree with Sparkrite here: the admin process is just too damn sloppy, they need to get it right, its not rocket science


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## onq (25 Aug 2011)

conork92 said:


> got a letter in the door this mornin for 2 penalty points and an 80 euro fine for not stopping at a stop sign . . .. i didnt stop fully just rolled up to the stop sign seen no cars coming so drove on . . . but on the letter the address is wrong and one of the numbers is missing from the reg of my car .  . would there be much point in appealing this ??? has anyone appealed before ?? how do you go about appealing ??



Amazed that the letter got delivered if the address was wrong.

Was it just that the postman knew who you were?

As for the court action, I wasn't aware that the judge might let the Garda change details on the day.

That's not to give you false hope, but I think you should speak to a friendly solicitor about getting you off on a technicality.

And if you do get off the charge, I strongly suggest that as well as improving your driving skills (perhaps go on a refresher course) find out where that Garda is stationed and avoid the area.


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## sustanon (25 Aug 2011)

Take your medicine like a big boy. you got cought, and refresher course? to learn how to stop at a stop sign?......

A rolling stop does not a stop make, and respect the police.


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## SparkRite (25 Aug 2011)

lionstour said:


> It was a minor road traffic offence.
> 
> 
> In this case the guy admitted he was wrong.
> ...



It REALLY gets my goat when people do not read what I post, or choose to "read" it with a slant.

Whilst being in danger of drifting off the topic of this thread, I *NEVER* once mentioned or brought into my posts the OP or his particular predicament, but you are constantly trying to reference my posts with his situation (see above).

For the final time, my one and only point I am trying to make is: 

*Mistakes in the administration and procedure pertaining to prosecuting/fining/summonsing alleged perpetrators should not be happening to the extent that it does. These sort of mistakes can and sometimes do have far reaching consequences, from the lowest charge all the way up to the highest.
*


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## SparkRite (25 Aug 2011)

Originally Posted by *SparkRite* http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?p=1196533#post1196533 
_You have missed my point TOTALLY!!

I am not in any shape or form condoning (nevermind "excusing" as you  say) anyone who breaks the law and admits it, trying to get off on an  administrative error._


*Lionstour> But that is exactly what you are doing.*


This is annoying.
Would you mind telling me where I have condoned or excused law breaking, please?


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## lionstour (25 Aug 2011)

SparkRite said:


> It REALLY gets my goat when people do not read what I post, or choose to "read" it with a slant.
> 
> Whilst being in danger of drifting off the topic of this thread, I *NEVER* once mentioned or brought into my posts the OP or his particular predicament, but you are constantly trying to reference my posts with his situation (see above).


 
Forgive me for relating his post to the point you are making in his thread. A thread in which you have commented upon in relation to issues directly related to his situation, i.e. mistakes in administration and procedures etc. 



SparkRite said:


> For the final time, my one and only point I am trying to make is:
> 
> *Mistakes in the administration and procedure pertaining to prosecuting/fining/summonsing alleged perpetrators should not be happening to the extent that it does. These sort of mistakes can and sometimes do have far reaching consequences, from the lowest charge all the way up to the highest.*


 
ANd for the final time, sometimes a person should take personal responsibility. As I have said before your point about the need for proper administration is obvious and correct. But thats actually not the point in this situation.


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## GuitarDave (25 Aug 2011)

Ah here we go the moral police strike again.

So Lionstour, next time you stop at a red light but have your front wheels slightly over the line, don't forget to drop by the copshop and report your motoring offence.


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## johnjoda (26 Aug 2011)

cmcr said:


> reading through the above, it explains why road traffic legislation is _the _most contested legislation in irish courts.
> 
> It never fails to surprise me the number of people who admit that they have broken the law and committed a traffic offence, but who do not accept the penalty and subsequently seek to get off on some administrative technicality or other.
> 
> Why not accept that you have committed an offence, accept the points and change your driver behaviour in future?



+1


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## GuitarDave (26 Aug 2011)

OP, were you actually stopped and pulled over at the time of this offence? If not then I'm sure you'd have a strong enough argument to get off as:
1. The reg on the letter is wrong
2. The address on the letter is wrong
3. Without having actually stopped you how could they be sure it was even you driving at the time.


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## horusd (26 Aug 2011)

CMCR said:


> Reading through the above, it explains why road traffic legislation is _the _most contested legislation in Irish courts.
> 
> It never fails to surprise me the number of people who admit that they have broken the law and committed a traffic offence, but who do not accept the penalty and subsequently seek to get off on some administrative technicality or other.
> 
> Why not accept that you have committed an offence, accept the points and change your driver behaviour in future?


 
+1. The reg no and address are irrelevant unless it wasn't you  the Gardai caught, and that doesn't seem to be in dispute. Take the points,pay the fine.


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## csirl (26 Aug 2011)

> 1. The reg on the letter is wrong


 
You could go into court and point this out, but the Judge may say that it's obvious its you and proceed. Alternatively, they could re-issue the summons with the correct details and you'll be back in court at a later date. 



> 2. The address on the letter is wrong


 
You got the letter, so the address must be close enough to be sure its you. Anyway, postal addresses in Ireland seem to be a moveable feast - we're all familiar with instances of people on the same street using different suburb names in Dublin (because one is posher than the other) and even wrong post codes etc. In country areas, Townlands seemed to be interchangeable in many addresses.



> 3. Without having actually stopped you how could they be sure it was even you driving at the time.



They put cameras on some Stop sign junctions nowdays, so there is a real danger that the Gardai will simply play a video of the incident in Court.


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## GuitarDave (26 Aug 2011)

csirl said:


> You could go into court and point this out, but the Judge may say that it's obvious its you and proceed. Alternatively, they could re-issue the summons with the correct details and you'll be back in court at a later date.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

Yep. All fair points.


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