# Which is the right Small Claim Court?



## LDFerguson (12 Oct 2013)

I'm putting together a small claim to the Small Claims Court for a relative in the matter of being overcharged for a service over a period of years.  

The service provider's address is in Scotland, although they market their services widely here in Ireland.  

The Courts website says: 



> Contact the District Court Office in the area where:
> 
> the respondent lives or carries on business,
> OR
> ...




I'm thinking that it would be my local office for the second reason above.  (Relative lives near me.)  

If so, then which is the right office?  The list is [broken link removed].  We live in Ratoath, County Meath.  Physically, the closest from the list is Swords, but Trim is in the same county if that's relevant.  

All pointers welcome.


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## Dermot (12 Oct 2013)

LD. I think your thinking is correct about where to bring but you seem to have a problem in deciding which court area that the contract was in.  What I would do having decided exactly where the contract was made would be to ring or contact a local Garda  and ask him/her if they had a prosecution to bring to court from the address of the contract what court area would it be in.  You can also have some very helpful District Court Clerks or possibly a solicitor that you might know.


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## Time (12 Oct 2013)

If the defendant is outside the state you will have to go through a different procedure.


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## LDFerguson (12 Oct 2013)

Thank you both for your replies.

@Time - the defendant is a multi-national company with offices here in Ireland as well as in other countries.  The administrative office of the disputed service is in Scotland, but the contract and the service itself was provided in Meath.


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## MrEarl (13 Oct 2013)

LDFerguson said:


> Thank you both for your replies.
> 
> @Time - the defendant is a multi-national company with offices here in Ireland as well as in other countries.  The administrative office of the disputed service is in Scotland, but the contract and the service itself was provided in Meath.




Hello,

Does the contract state that it will be governed by the laws of Ireland (or Scotland) - if Ireland, then it must be for the Irish courts to decide upon ?

Is it a regulated body and if so, then where is it regulated (and by extension, if it is a regulated body then should the first port of call not be to work through the regulator or ombudsman) ?


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## Dermot (13 Oct 2013)

LD.  Ring one of the District Court Clerks in your area and explain the situation and where you believe the contract (townland or street address) was entered into and they will point you in the right address and give you assistance in filling out the application.


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## Time (13 Oct 2013)

LDFerguson said:


> Thank you both for your replies.
> 
> @Time - the defendant is a multi-national company with offices here in Ireland as well as in other countries.  The administrative office of the disputed service is in Scotland, but the contract and the service itself was provided in Meath.



I take it this is SKY we are talking about?

Sky are notoriously hard to pin down as they have various holding companies that deal with various aspects of the service. If it is about a subscription you are going after Sky Subscriber Services LTD which is registered in England. You would have to invoke the European small claims procedure to get them into court.

Sky Subscribers Services Limited is registered in England (No. 2340150). Registered office: Grant Way Isleworth, Middlesex TW7 5QD, UK.

The fact their administration is in Scotland is not relevant, you have to go for the registered office.


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## LDFerguson (13 Oct 2013)

Time said:


> I take it this is SKY we are talking about?


 
Yes.  

I'll take the advice here and will ring the nearest District Court Clerk for advice.  The Small Claims Court website makes it clear that you need to be careful to pursue the correct entity so I don't want to get this wrong.  

Many thanks.


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## LDFerguson (13 Oct 2013)

Time said:


> Sky Subscribers Services Limited is registered in England (No. 2340150). Registered office: Grant Way Isleworth, Middlesex TW7 5QD, UK.
> 
> The fact their administration is in Scotland is not relevant, you have to go for the registered office.


 
Yes - we have a letter which has this detail in the small print at the bottom, so we'll go for that so.


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## LDFerguson (13 Oct 2013)

MrEarl said:


> Hello,
> 
> Does the contract state that it will be governed by the laws of Ireland (or Scotland) - if Ireland, then it must be for the Irish courts to decide upon ?
> 
> Is it a regulated body and if so, then where is it regulated (and by extension, if it is a regulated body then should the first port of call not be to work through the regulator or ombudsman) ?


 
Thank you for this.  As Sky do most of their business over the telephone, we don't have a formal contract - just a "welcome letter" which doesn't give that level of detail.  

That's an interesting point about regulation.  A quick glance at Comreg's website suggests that Sky TV *might* come under their remit.  I'll give them a call tomorrow to check also.  

Thanks.


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## WizardDr (13 Oct 2013)

@LDF - picking wrong DC isn't fatal. Unless your relative printed out the item and signed the paper contract - then the contract appears to be where he signed it as in 2nd option.


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## LDFerguson (15 Oct 2013)

Blazes.  Just rang Trim District Court office (which is the correct one for my area) and they tell me that they can't process a claim against Sky for overcharging through the Small Claims service because that's "money owed" which is outside the remit of the Small Claims service.  

Apparently we have to pursue a Civil Summons.  

This is not made clear on their website [broken link removed] but the lady I spoke with seemed certain.

Anyone got any advice?


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## Time (15 Oct 2013)

This is the problem you are up against. Clerks have no legal qualifications so they should not be making such determinations. 

You won't be able to sue sky here via a civil summons. They can simply ignore it. You could possibly sue them via the UK small claims system.


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## WizardDr (15 Oct 2013)

@LDF @Time
Here is Order 53A of the District Court Rules. 

It excludes 'debt'. However this depends on how it is phrased because say non delivery results in damages - money. So this did not start as a loan - it started as a contract. They breached the terms of the contract .. is that the angle?

You may be able to rephrase such that it is its a breach of contract resulting in an overcharge. 

Here is the reference:  (as in the actual Court Rule itself)

http://www.courts.ie/rules.nsf/0c60...64034533c237933d802576a5003a81c7?OpenDocument


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## LDFerguson (15 Oct 2013)

Thanks for this Time and WizardDr.  

The facts of the claim are fairly simple.  She moved to Ratoath from another county.  She already had a Sky account in her previous home.  She asked them to transfer the account from the old to the new.  They set up a new account instead but continued charging her for the old.  She's elderly with limited education and doesn't check her bank statements.  It wasn't noticed for four years.  Brought it to Sky's attention.  Sky said they would refund half of the duplicated charges but not all.  Their reasoning for not refunding all is that we should have noticed it sooner.  My argument is that, as it's a Direct Debit and not a Standing Order, they should have stopped taking the money four years ago.  

To my non-legal mind, this is not really *a debt *as a debt to me suggests that there was an agreement to pay an amount of money in the first place, which there wasn't.  But I'm possibly playing with words in a way that the legal system doesn't share.


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## commonsense (15 Oct 2013)

LDFerguson said:


> Thanks for this Time and WizardDr.
> 
> The facts of the claim are fairly simple.  She moved to Ratoath from another county.  She already had a Sky account in her previous home.  She asked them to transfer the account from the old to the new.  They set up a new account instead but continued charging her for the old.  She's elderly with limited education and doesn't check her bank statements.  It wasn't noticed for four years.  Brought it to Sky's attention.  Sky said they would refund half of the duplicated charges but not all.  Their reasoning for not refunding all is that we should have noticed it sooner.  My argument is that, as it's a Direct Debit and not a Standing Order, they should have stopped taking the money four years ago.
> 
> To my non-legal mind, this is not really *a debt *as a debt to me suggests that there was an agreement to pay an amount of money in the first place, which there wasn't.  But I'm possibly playing with words in a way that the legal system doesn't share.



Hi LD, was she billed each month for each account?


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## LDFerguson (15 Oct 2013)

commonsense said:


> Hi LD, was she billed each month for each account?


 
Taken by Direct Debit from her bank account each month.


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## commonsense (15 Oct 2013)

LDFerguson said:


> Taken by Direct Debit from her bank account each month.



Sorry, was she sent an actual physical bill for each account?


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## LDFerguson (15 Oct 2013)

commonsense said:


> Sorry, was she sent an actual physical bill for each account?


 
No - Sky don't issue physical bills.  They debit the account and send out occasional letters if the amount is being altered.


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## commonsense (15 Oct 2013)

LDFerguson said:


> No - Sky don't issue physical bills.  They debit the account and send out occasional letters if the amount is being altered.


 
"They set up a new account instead but continued charging her for the old."


I would contact the Financial Ombudsman before I did anything. According to SKY when you move they transfer your account with you, for some reason they did not do this with your relative. 

They cancelled the first account and then opened the second account - they made the initial error.

You should also check out IPSO (Irish Payments Services Organisation) and consider contacting the bank involved because to me the problem is that your relative only authorised one Direct Debit.  The second was taken for an account that was cancelled by SKY themselves.


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