# Any guidance on cost of extending and modernising please?



## BornToRun (10 Feb 2010)

Hi there,

I know I am probably asking the impossible but any kind of guidance would be a help. My husband and I are looking to buy a second-hand house in Dublin. However, we are leaning towards older houses which will need work and we are having difficulty trying to figure out how much it would cost to do up an older house.

For example, we are looking at a 1940's three bed house with flat roof garage and subject to planning permission we would like to extend over garage to include 4th bedroom upstairs and an open plan kitchen/dining/living area downstairs. I think the entire upstairs would need to be re-jigged to improve layout and positions of rooms. 
The garden is 65ft long with a 6 foot wall along one side and a laneway at the other side of the wall. Its along this side that the extension would be built. 

I am just looking at the cost of construction, wiring, plumbing, insulating etc. All the usuals I guess though excluding the cost of floors, kitchen, windows, bathrooms etc.

Would I be better off just asking a builder? ( I don't know any builders though)

The reason behind my question is I need to know how much to budget for "re-vamping and modernising" a house so that we know if we can afford the house in its current state IYKWIM!!
Are we talking €50K, €70K? Would I get the lot plus kitchen, bathrooms, floors, widows, doors done for €100K?

Thanks
Confused!


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## Sconhome (10 Feb 2010)

Confused,

It is worth speaking with a couple of selected contractors, get names from references and reputable sources only. Explain what you would like to do and ask if they would be willing to visit the house with you to discuss the possibilities.

You could also do this with an architect who may be required to answer questions in relation to planning control and planning guidelines that may be applicable in you instance. 

A good professional will be able to give you guideline budgets to help you decide the best direction to take your project in.

Sean


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## DBK100 (10 Feb 2010)

Sconhome said:


> Confused,
> 
> It is worth speaking with a couple of selected contractors, get names from references and reputable sources only. Explain what you would like to do and ask if they would be willing to visit the house with you to discuss the possibilities.




Confused,
We have found huge ranges in prices returned from builders at the moment.
As always, there are the guys who quote exceptionally low prices and then either do shoddy work or claim for numerous extras
and
There are some great contractors who seem not to have realised whats been happening in the economy and haven't dropped prices significantly
and
There are some very good contractors, doing good work, and quoting very reasonable prices.

As a result it really is very difficult to estimate prices by rules of thumb at the moment. Remember, the standard of specification you want has a big impact on price. So do things such as ease of access for demolition, skips, etc. I am aware of a contractor operating in the south County Dublin area who has been quoting around €90 per Sq foot for conventional extension works to a good standard.

We have recently had contractors return prices ranging between €1m & €544k for the same piece of renovation and extension work (based on detailed drawings & specification). The €544k guy secured the contract is working out very well.

DBK100
http://www.mesh.ie​


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## onq (10 Feb 2010)

I think you should be looking at something closer to €140K with provision for an additional amount to take it up to €210K circa and allow€10-20K for professional fees, inspections, certification, etc to include for an engineer and architect.

Don't jump on the self-build bandwagon if you know nothing about building work. My best advice to you is retain a competent architect to 

bring out the best in your design, 
advise you regarding the Safety, Health and Welfare at Work Regulations and
advise you regarding the most appropriate means of complying with Part L
You need to spend sufficient time on this at the early stages to make it work out for you.

*If this is to be your sole domicile* [your main "home"] you are not classed as a Client under the Safety, Health and Welfare at Work Regulations but your Designers and Contractors, should you retain them, all have responsibilities under the legislation, which is factored into the fees and build price.

The four main "flavours" of self build teams are:


Professionals and Main Contractor
Useful if you know nothing about building: you pay for everything by you should expect the best.

Professionals and Direct Labour
Can be cost effective if you have building experience and are a good organiser: you are the Contractor.

Main Contractor Without Professionals
In good hands for the build but who designs and certifies it - you may be saving professional fees at what cost?

Direct Labour Without Professionals
For seasoned operators only and responsibility for everything is on your choulders.


*If this is NOT to be your sole domicile* and you are engaged in a profitable enterprise you may be deemed to be a Client under the Safety, Health and Welfare at Work Regulations, whatever "flavour" of team you retain.

This usually requires you to notify the rlevant authority re the works and appoint the Project Supervisor at Design Stage and the Project Supervisor at Construction Stage and this will probably increase the job overheads.

All of the flavours of self-build have significant cost implications which is why I set thsi out here. Working without a Main Contractor means you are deemed to act in his place under the legislation.

May I suggest you read the Self Build FAQ on this forum here: http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=126261 in particular the section on Health and Safety.

You should also read up posts about self-build options on these forums and elsewhere.

If you are going ot sell or let the finished product you will need a Building Energy Rating Certificate.
This should prompt you t oconsider budgeting for upgrading the thermal performance of the existing house as extended.
The long garden will facilitate a geothermal heat pump.
A high degree of insulation with MHVR and a heat exchanger plus cavity insulation or external insulation could get you up to an A3 rating.
This too will add cost but the current Part L will require you to insulate well regardless.

As always this advice above is offered as general guidance only, from a position remote fro mthe action and in the presence of unknowns

You should take professional advice on all this before you start and this will allow you to make informed choices about your options and their cost benefits.

ONQ.

[broken link removed]


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## RIAD_BSC (11 Feb 2010)

onq said:


> I think you should be looking at something closer to €140K with provision for an additional amount to take it up to €210K circa and allow€10-20K for professional fees, inspections, certification, etc to include for an engineer and architect.


 
Am I naievely missing an obvious attempt at sarcasm, or do you seriously think that such a relatively modest project would cost anywhere near as much as this?

I'm not criticising, just curious.....


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## onq (11 Feb 2010)

The OP asked for advice, and was given advice, based on a project we are aware of in 2008.

The spread of tenders may reveal keener prices, but that is all to the good from our point of view.

We won't be accused of seriously under-preparing the OP for discussions with the finance provider if they're using one.

People forget that works to existing houses can work out more expensive per square metre than new builds as the list of works to the main house can be extensive.

Forming new opes and marrying in the structures will usually require internal support beams and propping and making good.

These prices could even be a little low because if the OP fails to define the works package and stick to it, costs could rise by more than 50%.

ONQ.

[broken link removed]


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## RIAD_BSC (11 Feb 2010)

Wow! That's a bit of an eye-opener, to be honest. I thought you were joking. Thing is, I am planning some work myself in a year or so, not a million miles away from what the OP is talking about.

@ONQ. If I PM'd you (or here if you like, I just didn't want to hijack OP's thread) some very sparse details on what I want to do, any chance you could give me some rudimentary advice me on how much cash I should make sure I have available?

thanks


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## onq (11 Feb 2010)

RIAD BSC,

Firstly, as you've already noted, I may be guiding high based on personal experience.

Secondly my forté is designing the project and the building and making sure you leave nothing out and you're happy with what you have in. I am trained as an architect, so my job is assembling the information that gets sent to a quantity surveyor for cost estimating. QS's don't design buildings and I don't offer costs extimates 
I can refer you to Bruce Shaw's website or the Society of Chartered Surveyor's website for rebuilding costs with a national spread of figures, but what you'll pa yis what your builder will do the work for.

Thirdly, DBK100's comments above are spot on, because the extension I referred to had a second price come in at over €200K without extras!  You'll see huge spreads and mad prices - mad high and mad low. I have seen what seemed to me to be some surprisingly low figures mentioned here and on boards.ie, for both contractor-led and direct labour-led private houses.

Finally, I am happy to receive PM's at any time and I understand that people may be reluctant to publish their details here, but I prefer to keep matters online to benefit all readers of AAM and even where PM's are exchanged I'll usully require to be allowed post a redacted summary for the record.

Information wants to be free.

ONQ

[broken link removed]


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## RIAD_BSC (11 Feb 2010)

Thanks ONQ. Let's set the information free (I was only concerned about hijacking OP's thread)

I own an ex-council, end-of-terrace two-bed in Dublin 12. It has an awfully-built small kitchen extension, which is colder than my fridge. I want to demolish this, and build a new 2-storey extension incorporating a new, larger kitchen and a third bedroom upstairs.

The job will probably involve a fair amount of remodelling upstairs (i.e. a new bathroom, making the existing second bedroom bigger, different landing to facilitiate doors etc...).

I'll also be looking to upgrade the insulation on the existing house as much as possible (including externally on the gable end, attic, a smal bit of dry lining).

If my budget allows, I may also convert the existing attic (if it makes sense and I am allowed) into a very small office space (just to keep my teacher wife and her homework-correcting off the kitchen table).

No fancy finishing, whatever the middle-of-the-road stuff costs....

I intend to employ the services of a design professional to advise me, and a contractor to do the job. 
The whole added space will probably be a max of 350 sq ft. I'm not bothered if the design means I have to apply for planning, as long as the job is the right one.

Will I have any change out of a mill?



Cheers


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## onq (11 Feb 2010)

Nope. Sorry. Mil is a minimum.

ONQ.


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## onq (11 Feb 2010)

RIAD_BSC said:


> Thanks ONQ. Let's set the information free (I was only concerned about hijacking OP's thread)
> 
> I own an ex-council, end-of-terrace two-bed in Dublin 12. It has an awfully-built small kitchen extension, which is colder than my fridge. I want to demolish this, and build a new 2-storey extension incorporating a new, larger kitchen and a third bedroom upstairs.
> 
> ...



Hi RIAD_BSC

You can ignore my little joke above.
You may *just* have change out of 100K.
The professional fees do not include for a structural engineer.
I prefer to retain one even on small jobs - if the structure is okay any other defects are relatively small ones.

It was polite of you to be concerned, but this isn't as strictly moderated as some forums.
This advice is offered in the presence of unknowns and remote from the action.

*Brief Economic Appraisal:*

Your house is 2-bed end of terrace, so its - what - 800 sqft?
To put this in prespective, you are building on an additional 50% of your existing area and upgrading the envelope..
Am I correct in thinking that the houses in the mid-terrace are actually 3 bed and that the end-of-terrace houses are two bed?
If this is the case then your upgrade may reflect well on the value of your property.
Regardless you should carfeully assess the cost against the likely increase in value.
Several estate agents are reporting a stabilization in the market in Dublin and some surrounding counties.
They're usually a few months early with such comments to "talk things up" again.
Nevertheless a SOuth Dublin estate agent reported a sale of over a million last month.
This is tehe first time in over a year - so matters may in fact be improving.

Why am I discussing this?
Because you should fully consider your options.
Including whether or not you should trade up as opposed to extend.

*Cost Estimate:*

The only publicly available cost estimates for building work that I am aware of is the Bruce Shaw guidelines for Rebuilding Costs.
This gives a good overview of how the contruction industry is being squeezed from both ends at the moment.
As far as I know Society of Chartered Surveyors post similar figures. 

http://www.bruceshaw.ie/cost_management/latest_publications/Bruce Shaw Handbook 09.pdf

From Table, Page Number 45/ Sheet No. 60 in the PDF File; -

Society of Chartered Surveyors
House Rebuilding Costs per m2 May ‘08

The typical cost of rebuilding a 2-bedroom 70 sqm terraced house in the dublin area on 2009 was €2,211 per square metre.

This is based on re-building, not building and is qualified as follows:

_1. The figures shown in the table are a minimum base cost guide for your house insurance.
2. The figures are based on estate type houses built since the 1960’s. They exclude; (a) Properties with more than 2 storeys
or with basements or habitable attics (b) One-off houses with special design features or period houses (c) Apartment /
residential flats because of split responsibilities for shared areas. The insurance of apartments is covered in the block
service charge. Owners should confirm with their management companies / agents that their apartment block has been
valued for insurance purposes, and that the insured value is current.
3. The figures assume a basic quality specification with normal foundations, brick or block walls, concrete tiled roof,
concrete ground floor and timber first floor, soft wood flush doors and hardwood double glazed windows, painted plaster
to walls, plastered ceilings, standard electrics and central heating. The sum insured should be increased to allow for
better than average kitchen fittings, built-in wardrobes, finishes and any other items not normally included in an estate
type house (e.g. fire alarm).
4. House contents such as carpets, curtains, furniture, etc. are not covered by the figures.
5. No allowance has been made for the cost of out-buildings, patios or boundary walls. The figures do however allow for a
concrete path around the house, for driveway repairs and regrassing.
6. The figures allow for demolition costs, professional fees incurred in reinstatement and VAT at 13.5% on building costs and
21% on professional fees.
7. The amounts included for professional fees have been calculated to cover the following services: Building Surveyor /
Architect and Quantity Surveyor.
8. The costs are based on building rates ruling in May 2008 and do not include for inflation during the duration of the policy
and the period between any loss occurring and reinstatement._

As noted at the start of this post the professional fees do not include for a structural engineer.

*Calculation:*

350 ÷ 10.764 x 2211 = €71,892

10.764 is the conversion factor sq.ft. to sq.m.

*Tender Prices*

The extension I referred to was priced on the basis of high end build quality and attention to the client.
The costs given above are for average estate speculative build to current building regulation standards.
Refer to Page Number 1/ Sheet No. 8 in the PDF File and read this and the next page.
You will see that you could achieve tender prices substantially below this.
Given the labour rates and materials prices, these will constitute below cost selling

From the Bruce SHaw Handbook, Page Number 2/ 
===============================

_Input Costs
The costs of construction inputs during
2009 are likely tomirror general inflation
trends. The proposed national pay deal
which would have granted workers an
increase of 3.5% in October 2008 followed
by a further increase of 2.5% for 12
months in April 2009, has been rejected.
Instead, contractors are seeking a
reduction in wage rates of 10% in order
to safeguard jobs. While some materials
manufacturers may seek to increase
prices, these are likely to be resisted and
some oil based materials will decrease
in price. On average we are predicting a
modest increase of 1.5% in input costs
for 2009, down from an average increase
of 3% for 2008.

Tender Prices
Construction tender prices, while affected
by input costs, are muchmore influenced
by supply and demand forces. In Bruce
Shaw we have been monitoring tender
prices for many years. Our analysis for
2008 shows that tender levels have fallen
on average by 12%, although in some
cases, falls of over 20% have been
witnessed. This major fall in tender
levels, despite rising input costs during
the year, has occurred as contractors
and sub-contractors have competed
exceptionally aggressively in order to
secure work to retain key staff in a
dramatically dwindling market. This has
resulted in many tenders being submitted
at well below cost.

The graph overleaf shows the Bruce
Shaw cost and tender indices from 2000
to 2008 with our predictions for 2009. The
gap between the cost of construction
inputs and tender levels is particularly
striking for 2008 and 2009.The fall in
tender prices is likely to continue during
2009 as contractors and sub-contractors
chase increasingly diminishing volumes
of work. However the fall in 2009 at 4% to
5% will be less dramatic than in 2008 as
below cost tendering has obvious
inherent dangers and can only be
regarded as a short-term solution at best.

These falling tender prices do however
offer very good value for clients who have
funds in place to commence construction
projects and it is to be hoped that some of
these will proceed in the latter half of
2009, as banking restrictions lessen. At a
national level, there is also great value to
be had by Government and it is also to be
hoped that the deteriorating finances do
not result in a significant slowdown in
public capital expenditure, which is
needed to safeguard jobs and to provide a
stimulus for the overall economy._

============================

*Conclusion*

At the end of the day you will build it for what your successful tenderer says he will build it for.
However you should be wary of accepting tender bids that are too low.
These will constitute below-cost selling/building of the project.
This has some unfortunate implications for the "good price".

How long can that contractor stay in business?
Has he priced other work on a similar basis?
Will he finally go bust doing your house?

Every bargain carries an element of risk.

FWIW

ONQ.

[broken link removed]


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## RIAD_BSC (12 Feb 2010)

Thanks ONQ, that's very detailed and helpful advice. I really appreciate it. I was budgeting in my head to have around 100k available to me, which I won't have for probably a year or so.

And yes, you're dead right, I would prefer to trade up than extend as I am aware that much of the cost of an extension slips through the cracks when it comes to increasing the value of the house.

However, my priority is to improve and extend my living space, for the purpose of starting a family, and I am not in a position to trade up. My problem is the story of the age: negative equity.

I paid 400k (all borrowed, _yes, I know, I know.._.) at the apex of the market for it. It's now probably worth 225k? 230k? And that is tops, if I am realistic.

So myself and my partner haven't a hope of trading up for several years to come (which is fine, as I enjoy living in the area, even if it will be for far longer than I had originally anticipated). The negative equity is just too large to address at this stage in our lives. 

We have reasonably good income (gross 115k between us), and could service a far larger mortgage. But the price of an extension would barely make a dent in the negative equity. Factor in the deposit I would need for a new house, stamp duty etc... and moving just ain't feasible for a good few years, as much as it would be preferable to extending. We want to start our family fairly shortly.

I also don't see renting a larger home and renting out ours as a sustainable solution. Too many financial and practical implications, such as loss of TRS, tax on the rental income receivable, plugging the gap between rent receivable and mortgage payable each month. Also, the whole reason we bought our own home was because we were sick of being at the mercy of landlords and of being someone else's "investment". I don't want to go back to that. We enjoy owning our own home.

So there you go. It's not an ideal situation, but far from disastrous.

Thanks for your help


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## onq (12 Feb 2010)

Hi RIAD_BSC 

I'm glad you understood the reason for the slight detour (!) so well.

On other forums you see mods crying "keep it on topic" for form's sake who can fail to see how broadening the issues discussed can offer well-rounded advice.

On AAM you can often get the full monte [within reason], which can make for a long read, but hopefully a comprehensive and a worthwhile one.

I think you're very wise not to be mortgaged to the hilt in the current climate - build your dynasty or your property empire, but not both.

Please contribute your experience of the build and costs when you proceed with this and best of luck with ALL your endeavours.



FWIW

ONQ.

[broken link removed]


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## RKQ (12 Feb 2010)

onq said:


> On other forums you see mods crying "keep it on topic" for form's sake who can fail to see how broadening the issues discussed can offer well-rounded advice.


 
I'd have to agree 100%.
Broading the issue can not always be avoided, if you are to be able to give complete advice on an issue.


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## onq (12 Feb 2010)

Ah, another boards.ie veteran


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## BornToRun (15 Feb 2010)

Hi all,

Thanks so much for the replies. 
Don't worry about hi-jacking RIAD BSC. More info for me to get my teeth in to.

ONQ- thanks for all the details. We have decided to let this house pass us by at the moment. Its not the work that put us off but the laneway. Would rather not have one beside a house I was about to spend over €500K on. But you have given me some useful info to educate myself with.


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## onq (15 Feb 2010)

BornToRun,

That's the name of the game, and if we can spread the knowledge to educate our population as best we can we won't hopefully see so many sucked into bad investments the next time around.



I'll end by noting that while lanes can be a security problem, many of the most sought after properties are developed off lanes, i.e. some of the Mews developments in Dublin City.

Later.

ONQ

[broken link removed]


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