# Landlords refusing HAP



## TheBigShort (19 Sep 2018)

http://www.thejournal.ie/landlord-refused-hap-wrc-4242635-Sep2018/

Im somewhat under censure at the moment so will make only one comment on this article. 
Its a pretty despicable case from the report and is illustrative of the type of landlord that should not be in the business in my opinion. 
It gives good landlords a bad name, but unfortunately instances similar to this occur far too regularly.


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## cremeegg (19 Sep 2018)

TheBigShort said:


> http://www.thejournal.ie/landlord-refused-hap-wrc-4242635-Sep2018/
> Im somewhat under censure at the moment





It is clear that in this case the landlord was an idiot.

_"However, in March of this year, the couple allege that they received a letter from their landlord with “there is your HAP” written on the envelope.

After opening the envelope the couple discovered that it was an eviction letter."_

There is a lot of idiocy about.

Mike Allen from Focus Ireland said.

_“The judgement is particularly welcome because it shows that the WRC will not accept secondary issues – such as failure to have a tax clearance cert – as an excuse for not accepting HAP tenants,” he said. _

Which brings idiocy to a whole new level.


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## The Horseman (19 Sep 2018)

Not the brightest landlord


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## Bronte (19 Sep 2018)

It is unbelievable that the landlord wrote them a letter stating :

_After the ‘termination’ letter in March of this year, the landlord wrote to the couple to state that he did not refuse to facilitate the HAP assistance application but was not in a position to do so as a result of not having a Tax Clearance Certificate._ 

1. You don't need the certificate for HAP to commence.  The landlord has 5 months to produce the certificate. 
2. I know this because I have the form right here and that's what it states, plus I didn't hav ethe TCC becuase I'd never needed it before and it took a while (couple of weeks) for my accountant to get it from the revenue system for me (problem in my case was not that my tax affairs weren't in order, but that I was a non resident)
2. 5 months is more than enough time to get your tax affairs in order, if that had been an issue.  And of course I'm not suggesting that any landlord might refuse HAP because they are under the tax radar and trying to stay under it.


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## Bronte (19 Sep 2018)

The Horseman said:


> Not the brightest landlord


Imagine sending an empty envelope to the tenants.  That's not nice.  In fact it's nasty.


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## The Horseman (19 Sep 2018)

Bronte said:


> Imagine sending an empty envelope to the tenants.  That's not nice.  In fact it's nasty.


I agree its nasty alright but I am becoming concerned with the developments in the rental sector.

Landlords are being forced to adhere to HAP standards which in my eyes are too high. At the end of the day the property is mine to do with as I please. My properties exceed the min standards for rental but fall below the HAP standards (for insulation purposes and windows etc).

I don't accept the Govt's interference in the rental sector. As a landlord I am left with all of the risk and if the HAP tenants stops paying the HAP people wont even tell you.


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## Bronte (19 Sep 2018)

The Horseman said:


> Landlords are being forced to adhere to HAP standards which in my eyes are too high. At the end of the day the property is mine to do with as I please. My properties exceed the min standards for rental but fall below the HAP standards (for insulation purposes and windows etc).
> 
> I don't accept the Govt's interference in the rental sector. As a landlord I am left with all of the risk and if the HAP tenants stops paying the HAP people wont even tell you.



You'll know immediately surely because they will cut off the HAP?

As regards HAP standards, nobody has inspected any of my properties. Ever.  And I'm into my third decade.  And the first one into HAP was April 2016.  I wouldn't mind getting inspected as I'd like a list of what I should do.


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## The Horseman (19 Sep 2018)

Bronte said:


> You'll know immediately surely because they will cut off the HAP?
> 
> As regards HAP standards, nobody has inspected any of my properties. Ever.  And I'm into my third decade.  And the first one into HAP was April 2016.  I wouldn't mind getting inspected as I'd like a list of what I should do.



They may cut off HAP but they wont engage with you as the landlord because they are not party to the tenancy agreement and as such would be in breach of Data Protection legislation if they disclosed anything to you about the tenants situation etc.

You would be left dealing with the tenant and if the tenant refuses then you will be in for a long drawn out process via the RTB. The HAP was introduced to do away the RAS. With the RAS the tenancy agreement was between the landlord and the Council. So the Council was liable for the rent (even if the tenant did not pay their contribution to the council).

The RAS scheme was closed specifically because the council were responsible for the rent so the landlord had no risk and the council had all the risk.


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## mathepac (19 Sep 2018)

and it seems perfectly reasonable to me that the business owner takes the financial risk rather than a LA or other state agency.


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## Bronte (19 Sep 2018)

The Horseman said:


> You would be left dealing with the tenant and if the tenant refuses then you will be in for a long drawn out process via the RTB. The HAP was introduced to do away the RAS. With the RAS the tenancy agreement was between the landlord and the Council. So the Council was liable for the rent (even if the tenant did not pay their contribution to the council).
> 
> The RAS scheme was closed specifically because the council were responsible for the rent so the landlord had no risk and the council had all the risk.



I'm not seeing this as any worse. By RAS do you mean the rent allowance that the councils and corporations paid to the tenants and then the tenant paid the landlord this plus their own portion.  That was worse.  Because sometimes tenant's would pocket the rent and not pay the landlord. So I think HAP is way better.  Money is coming in directly and the tenant never gets to see it. They never build up arrears, or more importantly don't build up unmanageable arrears. 

So for either of those schemes the landlord as property owner takes the financial risks, which is right and proper. And deals with the tenant as you would any other tenant. 

And in my case I got more from HAP then I did under the old scheme so I'm delighted with it.  Prior to this I didn't put up the rents as I didn't think the tenants could afford it.  And for this the other day on here I was told I was leeching and parasitic.


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## Tebbit (19 Sep 2018)

While the landlord was foolish - he mustn't have known the rules -  I think the award amount was excessive.    It seems also that the tenants took on a property initially that they just couldn't afford - they were struggling almost straight away.


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## The Horseman (19 Sep 2018)

Bronte said:


> I'm not seeing this as any worse. By RAS do you mean the rent allowance that the councils and corporations paid to the tenants and then the tenant paid the landlord this plus their own portion.  That was worse.  Because sometimes tenant's would pocket the rent and not pay the landlord. So I think HAP is way better.  Money is coming in directly and the tenant never gets to see it. They never build up arrears, or more importantly don't build up unmanageable arrears.
> 
> So for either of those schemes the landlord as property owner takes the financial risks, which is right and proper. And deals with the tenant as you would any other tenant.
> 
> And in my case I got more from HAP then I did under the old scheme so I'm delighted with it.  Prior to this I didn't put up the rents as I didn't think the tenants could afford it.  And for this the other day on here I was told I was leeching and parasitic.




No the RAS is the Rental Accommodation Scheme not the Rent Allowance.


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## robert 200 (19 Sep 2018)

I took a happer as a tenant about 3 years ago. I was immediately contacted by  DCC  for an inspection. The property was 2 story in 6 flats and totally upgraded so I had no problem.

Their findings were :
1. I had to provide 24 hour emergency lighting on the stairways and 24 hour emergency EXIT lighting signs above the front and back doors.
2. I had to provide emergency evacuation plans and to place them on the inside of each flat door.

I protested to the inspector that I was also living in a 2 story house and I deemed both conditions unnecessary - I had no choice as the tenant was in situ.

Fortunately the happer liked to play his guitar at around 3am ( he was unemployed ) and he was removed rather briskly from the property.

For the reasons given by  "The Horseman" and the above I will NEVER deal with happers and DCC again.


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## Bronte (19 Sep 2018)

The Horseman said:


> No the RAS is the Rental Accommodation Scheme not the Rent Allowance.



Ok, they moved my tenants from the rent allowance onto the HAP. Nothing to do with the RAS then. Didn’t like that as you lose control and accept lower rents was my understanding of it, but you got the upside of guaranteed rent no matter what, plus repairs I think. As in property back in the same condition.


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## The Horseman (19 Sep 2018)

Only upside is guaranteed rent but is lower than market rate. You don't choose tenants and you are responsible for repairs. Had existing tenant so was happy for them to go on RAS and stay. Best tenants I have ever had and they are with me 8 years.


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## pcocp (19 Sep 2018)

The Horseman said:


> Landlords are being forced to adhere to HAP standards which in my eyes are too high. At the end of the day the property is mine to do with as I please. My properties exceed the min standards for rental but fall below the HAP standards (for insulation purposes and windows etc



In terms of the HAP standards for rented accommodation, is there a minimum standard or point on the BER scale required to be met?


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## The Horseman (20 Sep 2018)

I am not aware of the min BER requirements but I know you can increase your BER rating by simply changing light bulbs to energy efficient ones (yes I know its crazy).

Some councils have different rules. I know one of my properties when I first rented under the RAS it had single glazed windows and no insulation in the attic and it passed the inspection (with the exception of needing vents in the bedrooms and wanting the place repainted). The BER would have been an F at that point.


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## Bronte (20 Sep 2018)

pcocp said:


> In terms of the HAP standards for rented accommodation, is there a minimum standard or point on the BER scale required to be met?



I've no clue as I don't have BER certs.  It wasn't a requirement for HAP. I just certified whatever was on the form.  In other words housing standards Acts.

---

I had a look at the HAP form looing for BER and I noticed that about the tax clearance cert that you are supposed to supply within 5 month, that:

_however, if within the 5 months, a further payment by the authority falls due which, if paid would result in total payments by the authority to the landlord in any period of 12 months exceeding 10K that payment will *not *be made without the landord producting a Valid TCC._

that doesn't make sense to me, because it's confusing the 5 months with 12 months. I'm guessing they don't bother with this. As it's more trouble than it's worth for them to be trying to monitor this.  In my own case they only asked for the TCC initially and not annually.  

---

Also I notice that the tenant's who get HAP declare that they will be removed from the Housing list.   That's a neat way of removing people from that isn't it.  Government playing with numbers.  So I guess my rent allowance tenants were on the list, were renting, then were moved to HAP and are magically no longer on the  lists.


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## The Horseman (20 Sep 2018)

Bronte said:


> I've no clue as I don't have BER certs.  It wasn't a requirement for HAP. I just certified whatever was on the form.  In other words housing standards Acts.
> 
> ---
> 
> ...




You are required to have a BER cert for rental. (cant post links) 

"From 1st January 2009, a BER Certificate is compulsory for all homes being renting (with a few exceptions – however, you should consult the SEAI website for further information)."

You should be supply yearly TCC certs as once you pass €10k in payments from the council they should automatically request an up to date TCC.

Correct regarding the HAP and the housing list as you are deemed housed. You may go on a transfer list once you are in HAP to transfer to a council owned property.


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## Bronte (20 Sep 2018)

I'm aware I'm supposed to have a BER, just don't see the point of the expense for zero benefit to anybody.


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## The Horseman (20 Sep 2018)

Bronte said:


> I'm aware I'm supposed to have a BER, just don't see the point of the expense for zero benefit to anybody.



Sorry did not read your original post correctly and thought you did not have one.

Yeah the BER is only really valid if there was more properties to rent than needed and renters could use the BER to differentiate between properties as a high BER should result in lower heating costs etc.


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## newirishman (20 Sep 2018)

Bronte said:


> I'm aware I'm supposed to have a BER, just don't see the point of the expense for zero benefit to anybody.



Apart from "it being the law", I don't get your point regarding zero benefit? The BER cert gives a good idea on what to expect in terms of energy usage and heating. 
I would not rent anything below C for example, because it is likely to be cold and painful to heat.


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## Bronte (20 Sep 2018)

newirishman said:


> Apart from "it being the law", I don't get your point regarding zero benefit? The BER cert gives a good idea on what to expect in terms of energy usage and heating.
> I would not rent anything below C for example, because it is likely to be cold and painful to heat.



Good for you, the property that I reckon is likely to be bad for heating I pay the heating bills so the matter doesn't arise for those tenants.  Nobody has ever asked me for a BER, which I don't have, I don't believe it's a likely indication of much. I'd say last years heating bills would give one a better idea.  I'm not a bit worried about the law.  The corporations/powers that be have never so far inspected me or two of my relations.  In fact I don't know one person they have inspected.


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## AlbacoreA (20 Sep 2018)

newirishman said:


> Apart from "it being the law", I don't get your point regarding zero benefit? The BER cert gives a good idea on what to expect in terms of energy usage and heating.
> I would not rent anything below C for example, because it is likely to be cold and painful to heat.



https://www.independent.ie/life/hom...s-our-inaccurate-energy-ratings-30257397.html

Not so sure.


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## AlbacoreA (20 Sep 2018)

TheBigShort said:


> http://www.thejournal.ie/landlord-refused-hap-wrc-4242635-Sep2018/
> 
> Im somewhat under censure at the moment so will make only one comment on this article.
> Its a pretty despicable case from the report and is illustrative of the type of landlord that should not be in the business in my opinion.
> It gives good landlords a bad name, but unfortunately instances similar to this occur far too regularly.



I assume for balance you'll post a thread about a bad tenant aswell...


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## ashore (19 Oct 2018)

A few years ago when I was in real danger of being homeless as my then landlord was selling up, a landlady whose house I was viewing and all going well, heard the words ,"Rent allowance" and froze. Said she had to ask her husband and then started pointing out defects in the house. The following day I had in an email. "Rent Allowance does not suit my husband and I."She refused to believe this was illegal discrimination and thankfully I found safe haven elsewhere in time.. NB as I am old and had been on RA for so many years, social welfare were allowing me to stay on it... It is the sheer lack of respect for the law that takes the breath away


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## AlbacoreA (19 Oct 2018)

Its only illegal since the 1st January 2016.


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## ashore (19 Oct 2018)

Yes and it was within that.


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## AlbacoreA (19 Oct 2018)

Ah Threshold ... https://lovindublin.com/news/threshold-apologies-over-viewing-fees-mix-up

They clearly show the dates on their site...

https://www.threshold.ie/advice/see...modation/can-a-landlord-refuse-to-rent-to-me/


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## Magpie (19 Oct 2018)

The Horseman said:


> I agree its nasty alright but I am becoming concerned with the developments in the rental sector.
> 
> Landlords are being forced to adhere to HAP standards which in my eyes are too high. At the end of the day the property is mine to do with as I please. My properties exceed the min standards for rental but fall below the HAP standards (for insulation purposes and windows etc).
> 
> I don't accept the Govt's interference in the rental sector. As a landlord I am left with all of the risk and if the HAP tenants stops paying the HAP people wont even tell you.




Too high? I've seen the inspection from the council re HAP, it literally checks that bedrooms have windows, there are vents and the building isn;t actually falling down or running with damp. The standards are incredibly low if anything, absolute minimum required.


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## qwerty5 (20 Oct 2018)

Magpie said:


> Too high? I've seen the inspection from the council re HAP, it literally checks that bedrooms have windows, there are vents and the building isn;t actually falling down or running with damp. The standards are incredibly low if anything, absolute minimum required.



Would you have a link to a full list of what they check for? I can't find it online


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## The Horseman (20 Oct 2018)

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2017/si/17/made/en/print


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## qwerty5 (21 Oct 2018)

That's for rented houses. I thought HAP had different standards.
E.g Ber was mentioned on this thread. It's not mentioned on that link.


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## Bronte (22 Oct 2018)

Magpie said:


> Too high? I've seen the inspection from the council re HAP, it literally checks that bedrooms have windows, there are vents and the building isn;t actually falling down or running with damp. The standards are incredibly low if anything, absolute minimum required.



I've never ever been inspected.  Not when the tenant's went into RAS or when they moved into HAP.  To me the council doesn't want to know and only care about keeping people off housing lists.  Would you have a scan of the document please, just black our property address and your name.

My HAP contract says I must abide by 'rental accommodation standards' and has a link to environ.ie which I've never even looked at.  Also says they will inspect within 8 months of the HAP starting !

- Must be tax compliant.

- Proof of ownership with title deeds, or PRTB registration or insurance or LPT payment or mortgage statement. 

- Nothing about BER. 

- Copy of bank statement. 

- Something about Housing standards regulations 2008 and 2009.


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## Leo (22 Oct 2018)

qwerty5 said:


> I thought HAP had different standards.



HAP inspections go beyond the minimum housing standards in that they also check the condition of all furniture, fixtures & fittings and finishes such as tiling or painting.


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## Magpie (22 Oct 2018)

Leo said:


> HAP inspections go beyond the minimum housing standards in that they also check the condition of all furniture, fixtures & fittings and finishes such as tiling or painting.



 Mine certainly did not, and the council inspector made a point of saying he was not interested in anything like that.  Furniture and fittings all excluded, never mind tiling and painting. 

It took 5 mins and could not have been more basic.


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## Leo (22 Oct 2018)

Magpie said:


> Mine certainly did not, and the council inspector made a point of saying he was not interested in anything like that.



Maybe varies by location, each LA draws up their own template for the inspections. I've only seen the full report for one inspection and that covered all the areas I mentioned. In that case they even insisted a carbon monoxide alarm be fitted in an apartment with no source of combustion.


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## PaddyBloggit (22 Oct 2018)

Rent allowance not being accepted by the landlady advertising here:

https://www.donedeal.ie/livingroom-for-sale/renting/20148241

and here:

https://www.donedeal.ie/babywear-for-sale/letting/20148402


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## cremeegg (22 Oct 2018)

That first one offers privet parking for provisional couples.


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## ashore (23 Oct 2018)

This is national legislation surely? Maybe just an inspector not taking it seriously?


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## Thirsty (23 Oct 2018)

That ad deserves to be shown in all its glory....

"Beautiful house to let old killarney village walking destince from Lidl and town centre perfect for provisional couple or sharing as there is unsuited bathrooms in bedrooms privet parking large back yard and front all mod cons noRA €1000 pm ready asap call tracey for vewing"


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## elcato (23 Oct 2018)

Sounds like a scam to be honest. I feel a 'book through our secure site on AB&B' coming next.


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## Bronte (24 Oct 2018)

TheBigShort said:


> http://www.thejournal.ie/landlord-refused-hap-wrc-4242635-Sep2018/
> 
> Im somewhat under censure at the moment so will make only one comment on this article.
> Its a pretty despicable case from the report and is illustrative of the type of landlord that should not be in the business in my opinion.
> It gives good landlords a bad name, but unfortunately instances similar to this occur far too regularly.



Why is this the WRC.


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## ashore (25 Oct 2018)

Clearly not English so maybe does not know the rules?


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## PaddyBloggit (25 Oct 2018)

Ads now gone.


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## ashore (26 Oct 2018)

wise of them,


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## PaxmanK (13 Nov 2018)

I think im going soft.
I was just helping a colleague go through all the applicants for an apartment that she is renting and there are so many on HAP that she really likes the sound of.
She especially feels for the mothers with young children and would like to help them out.
And then she softened me up and I really feel like these people deserve a chance from reading their stories in their emails.
But I cant help but advise my colleague of the sh!t storm that she will bring on herself if she takes a Hap tenants.  She'll have inspections and then have to pay thousands in pointless upgrades.  Its just too much hassle to bring down on herself.
What kind of ridiculous system have we got that someone who actually wants to help out cant for fear that it would cost them too much money and hassle.


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## mugsymugsy (13 Nov 2018)

Point to note with your friend she didn't decide because of HAP! It was because of  (insert reason that you can come up with that means she won't be discriminating against HAP applicants).
Look for two months deposit, one month ip front, references from employer, references from old landlord and meet them.


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## PaxmanK (13 Nov 2018)

Too true.


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## landlord (13 Nov 2018)

mugsymugsy said:


> Point to note with your friend she didn't decide because of HAP! It was because of  (insert reason that you can come up with that means she won't be discriminating against HAP applicants).
> Look for two months deposit, one month ip front, references from employer, references from old landlord and meet them.



I would have thought most HAP tenants  do not have an employer.


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## PaddyBloggit (13 Nov 2018)

landlord said:


> I would have thought most HAP tenants do not have an employer.



So who would they supply references from? (that would be on par with those from employers)


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## landlord (14 Nov 2018)

PaddyBloggit said:


> So who would they supply references from? (that would be on par with those from employers)


That’s my point, your average HAP tenant will not be able to supply references of the same quality as a non HAP tenant.


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## mugsymugsy (14 Nov 2018)

Exactly they won't be able to supply them but he is not discriminating against.


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## PaxmanK (14 Nov 2018)

She was not discriminating against the hap tenants at all.  Quite the opposite.  It was the hap systes with the added costs and red tape that changed her mind to not accept hap tenants.
Accepting a happy tenant just brings piles of costs and work down on a landlord, through no fault of the tenant.


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## Leo (14 Nov 2018)

landlord said:


> I would have thought most HAP tenants do not have an employer.



It's not unheard of for some to reduce working hours for a time in order to meet the eligibility criteria. I'm not saying it's in any way common, but it happens.


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## Bronte (14 Nov 2018)

PaxmanK said:


> But I cant help but advise my colleague of the sh!t storm that she will bring on herself if she takes a Hap tenants.  She'll have inspections and then have to pay thousands in pointless upgrades.  Its just too much hassle to bring down on herself.
> What kind of ridiculous system have we got that someone who actually wants to help out cant for fear that it would cost them too much money and hassle.



This is not true and is not my experience with Hap. I had no inspection and was not told to modify anything. 

And if you're inspected and have to spend 'thousands' can you tell us on what and why?  Sounds like an unfit property.  Now maybe my properties are unfit, but until the powers that be tell me they are, I can only conclude that the councils have zero interest in me. 

One thing I will agree with you on tough, that initally getting in HAP is bureaucratic in the extreme. 

Unlike you though, I wouldn't have a soft spot for letters that look for sympathy.  Prior record is all that is important.  I wouldn't trust any letter.


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## PaxmanK (14 Nov 2018)

You can read all about the people.who got inspected and got crucified .

Check over on boards.ie and you'll find loads of them.

Of the people I know personally who were inspected, there were various things that were good enough standard for your own home, but had to be "upgraded" for rental.

I hoph you don't get inspected because you are in or a shock if you do.


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## Bronte (14 Nov 2018)

PaxmanK said:


> I hoph you don't get inspected because you are in or a shock if you do.



You wouldn't have a link to boards, I find that website impossible.

I don't mind a shock. Probably best not to upgrade and then they'll just give me basic stuff to do.  With civil servants the worse you are the easier they are to deal with, they're just glad you do anything, so if you're the tops, they just ask you to go higher. 

What do they do to you if you don't comply?  Kick out the tenant's?


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## PaddyBloggit (14 Nov 2018)

Bronte said:


> You wouldn't have a link to boards, I find that website impossible.



Have a look here Bronte: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=38

and https://www.boards.ie/search/submit/?forum=38&subforums=1&sort=newest&date_to=&date_from=&query=hap


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## Magpie (15 Nov 2018)

[QUOTE="PaxmanK, post: 1590236, member: 102697"
But I cant help but advise my colleague of the sh!t storm that she will bring on herself if she takes a Hap tenants.  She'll have inspections and then have to pay thousands in pointless upgrades.  Its just too much hassle to bring down on herself.
What kind of ridiculous system have we got that someone who actually wants to help out cant for fear that it would cost them too much money and hassle.[/QUOTE]

so you are advising your colleague to illegally discriminate against HAP claimants based on your misunderstanding of the system? 
there is no hassle. One ten minute inspection, likely no changes needed unless the property is already well under standard. I've been present at HAP inspections, they are looking that you have a window in each bedroom, vents and fire alarms/CO2 alarms.


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## landlord (15 Nov 2018)

Magpie said:


> there is no hassle.



My experience of HAP inspections would suggest major hassle!!!!

https://www.askaboutmoney.com/threa...-considering-hap-tenants.208934/#post-1575931


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