# Dog knocked down - damage to car



## agwa (8 Apr 2008)

Hi All,

What are your opinions on the following events?

I opened the gate at the end of my girlfriend's driveway so I could drive out.  through a sequence of unfortunate events, her dog ran out of the gate and got hit by a car.  Unbelievably, the dog survived (I don't know how) but the car in question had it's bumper cracked (2004 Suzuki Liana).

Before I could get the dog to the Vets I had to deal with the woman who had hit the dog.  I felt that as I opened the gate, it was my fault and so I took her number and told her I'd get the car fixed.

When the dust settled my girlfriend got in touch with the woman to see how she was and to tell her the dog was OK and that we'll pay to get the car fixed (I had only seen a small crack though I was in a bit of shock).  The woman duly went to her dealer and got a quote of over €900 (plus they apparently charged her 50 quid for the quote!).  The quote she got was for a brand new bumper to replace the cracked one.

We got a quote of less than half that to _fix _the crack.  This will apparently be as good as new.  It would also cost less to replace it with a second hand bumper (it is 2004 car after all).

These offers were dismissed out of hand and my girlfriend has just received an intimidating and abusive phone call from the woman's husband.  Only a new bumper will suffice.

I'm of the opinion that we should pay to get the car fixed out of some sort of civic duty.  But I'm not sure where we stand on their demands for a new bumper.  The way he spoke to my girlfriend I want I feel like telling him to accept the fix or take us to court.  Either that or I'll set the dog on him 

Anyone any advice?

Cheers,
Agwa


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## aoc (8 Apr 2008)

a guy bashed into my husband's car last week and a new bumper is part of the repairs - i think the bumper cost about€ 180 + vat MAX!!! you are so being ripped off there. 

If it were my car '94 or not you are entitled to a new bumper if that's what you want. there may be a small charge by the garage to spray the bumper (if colour coded)


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## Towger (8 Apr 2008)

The dogs owner is always liable for damages caused by the dog, but it may be covered by your household insurance.


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## agwa (8 Apr 2008)

A new bumper for a Suzuki Liana is around 400.  The rest was labour.  I know it's very expensive for a lump of plastic!!

I'm just wondering, from a legal point of view, do drivers (myself included) not accept some risk when driving?  I mean, what if it was a kid on a bike that came out of the driveway?  The gate is at an entrance to a main road right at a large-ish roundabout so maybe the driver should have been driving a bit slower.

I want to get their car fixed - but I don't want to be held to ransom or have my girlfriend abused by some coward.


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## agwa (8 Apr 2008)

Cheers Towger.

I assumed that the dog owner would be liable - and rightly so.  The grey area is do I have to get a bumper replaced or can it be fixed?

Who gets to choose?


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## aoc (8 Apr 2008)

i'm sure charging for a quote is the biggest pile of c**p i've ever heard of....

€ 500 to fix a bumper to a car is crazy that must be about 10 hours... what a rip off


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## agwa (8 Apr 2008)

The €908 quote is from the Suzuki garage.  I believe the €50 for the  quote is deducted from the final price.

aoc - I'm not going to pay that, as I agree with you - it's a rip off.  You should see the crack in the car, it's tiny.


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## bleary (8 Apr 2008)

A friends bumper got tipped a few years ago -it was a new car and she got a new bumper the cheapest quote was about 900 -


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## Mpsox (8 Apr 2008)

the quote is riduculous, no arguement on that, however why should they accept a repair for something that was your fault? After all, if someone crashed into your car and damaged the bumper, would you accept the repair or would you expect the other person to replace the bumper

Why not try another  Susuki dealer yourself and see what they would charge you?


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## buzzard (8 Apr 2008)

I agree with the last post. It does'nt matter how old the car is, the third party is entitled to a new bumper. €900 does sound a bit excessive but bear in mind that the Suzuki garage does'nt do the repair themselves they send the car somewhere else and that their cut out of it.

Get a quote from a auto bodyshop. Should'nt cost no more than €600 if *only* the bumper needs to be replaced. It does take time to prepare the bumper, apply a couple of coats of paint, laquer, drying time and fitting.


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## phil1147 (8 Apr 2008)

hi, unfortunatley you are liable to fix or pay for the damages incurred. Good news is that you can argue the cost. If you can get a better cost somewhere else, within the vicinity of the area the claimant got the quote. If they do not accept this better price then they will have to bring you to small claims court.
Oh, and nobody pays for a quote to fix a bumper, thats pure fiction. Thats a matter between her and the garage in question. If the garage did charge that, well then surely €900 is an exageration also.


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## agwa (8 Apr 2008)

Cheers Bleary.

I fully accept that to buy a new bumper and to get it installed will cost 900.
I'm arguing that I don't need to get a new bumper - it can be fixed as good as new for half the cost.  Does anyone think I'm being unreasonable?

Mpsox - this is more like it.  If they took the car away got it fixed and it was as good as new I'd be happy with that.  The caveat is that I'm a new driver and I have an old banger!  If I'd get it back without noticng the difference then I'd be happy.  In my opinion, she must also take some, however small, responsibility as she hit the dog.  I'd be happy I didn't kill the dog and not even get it fixed (man, it's a tiny crack!)- but each to their own.

They won't accept a second-hand bumper either, which when lacquered etc will look like new.  Their car is 4 years old so why isn't a second hand bumper (which may be newer than the car) acceptable?

Somebody mentioned that house insurance could cover it - it's complicated, she's minding the house for her uncle.  They don't have contents insurance


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## agwa (8 Apr 2008)

Phil1147 - I got a printout of the quote - it's real!

To my mind, getting a new bumper is overkill.  It's akin to getting a new bonnet if somebody scratches it.  I'm going to offer to get it fixed and see what they say.  I would be more willing to get it fixed had he not been such a bully on the phone to my girlfriend.

Cheers everyone for your advice


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## gillarosa (8 Apr 2008)

Hi Agwa,

Possibley you could advise them that you will pay for the repair at a garage of your choice?


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## Pique318 (8 Apr 2008)

They want you to pay 10% of the price of the car for a bloody bumper ??
Reasonably priced cars here

She must have been driving too fast for the conditions if she couldn't stop in time for a dog to run out in front of her in a (presumably) urban area.

Tell her that you'll pay to have it fixed and if she wants a new bumper, then she can pay for it herself !


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## amgd28 (8 Apr 2008)

Am I the only one here that thinks that this entire episode is a bit mad?
I think agwa is being extremely generous to suggest that the driver's car be repaired at all, let alone at the garage of her choice (I mean, what's stopping the driver getting a msssive quote and splitting the difference with the garage.

As someone thankfully mentioned, what woudl be the situation if it was your son or daughter that ran out on the road? The driver would be facing charges of dangerous driving. If the driver was driving at speed in a residential area (as it must be, outside your house), then she should have been doing so at a speed that would allow avoidance of a dog or a child.

If you really want to look after them, I would throw them about 300euro and be done with it. Any further then threaten them with reckless driving and reporting the incident to the guards. 

People see and inch and take a mile, the world has gone mad


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## agwa (8 Apr 2008)

Hi Gillarosa - I don't think they mind who fixes it as long as it's a new bumper.  She went to the Suzuki dealer because that's where she bought it.  My argument is, why can't I just get it fixed.  The mechanic assures me it'll be as good as new.

Pique318.  You're reading my mind - I don't think that's being unreasonable.


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## shipibo (8 Apr 2008)

agwa said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Before I could get the dog to the Vets I had to deal with the woman who had hit the dog. I felt that as I opened the gate, it was my fault and so I took her number and told her I'd get the car fixed.
> 
> Agwa


  First rule of accident is, never admit guilt. Surely, she has to take some responsibility for not being able to brake.

No witnesses, No Garda reports , looks like you are in the clear.


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## agwa (8 Apr 2008)

amgd28 - I tend to agree, it was me who mentioned the "what if he hit a kid" scenario.  
I do feel responsible and I think the law is against me when it comes to control of dogs.  However your idea of throwing them 300 quid is one that I've being mulling over.  I may tell them I can either get it fixed my way or give them 300 odd quid for their troubles.


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## agwa (8 Apr 2008)

Crumdub12 - I would but they know where my Girlfriend lives and she's afraid there could be repercussions.  If they get a bit too aggressive/abusive I may yet pull that one on them!


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## Caveat (8 Apr 2008)

You sound very considerate agwa and a decent person - but what a surprise, someone is taking advantage.

Throw them the 300 and they can count themselves lucky as far as I'm concerned. They have some neck. If it were me TBH, I'd give them absolutely nothing just for being so cheeky about it.

Realistically, what are they going to do if you don't agree to their demands? Do you reckon these loolahs pose a threat maybe?


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## foxylady (8 Apr 2008)

Caveat said:


> You sound very considerate agwa and a decent person - but what a surprise, someone is taking advantage.
> 
> Throw them the 300 and they can count themselves lucky as far as I'm concerned. They have some neck. If it were me TBH, I'd give them absolutely nothing just for being so cheeky about it.
> 
> Realistically, what are they going to do if you don't agree to their demands? Do you reckon these loolahs pose a threat maybe?


 
why dont u tell them as there seems to be n happy medium that you will ring the guards to ask them for their opinion on the matter, bet that will shut them up


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## Red (8 Apr 2008)

Did the driver take reasonable care to avoid hitting the dog ? If no one was behind her she should have been able to stop the car & avoid dog.

I was always led to believe that unless there was traffic behind you or oncoming, a driver should  make an evasive move to avoid hitting the dog/cat/fox. 
And definitely in a built up area, the driver should be anticipating the unexpected..... small children, dogs balls etc 

If they are expecting you to cough up for the bumper the least you can do is ask for them to cover the vets fees ( which in general seems to be exorbitant - our dog had a 2 night stay after a suspected hit & run & the vets bill was €360+ after xrays etc were factored in) 

Offer it up as a trade off. You'll cover vets fee, they can cover car fee


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## agwa (8 Apr 2008)

It was very hard for me to see as I was still in the driveway.  There are high walls blocking the view to the main road. It was also very hard to gauge how fast she was going from my viewpoint.
In fairness to her she got a fright herself and she said she doesn't know how the person behind her didn't plough into her.  It's all gone a bit pear-shaped once the husband got involved.  He's saying they trade up every 2 years and this will reduce the value of the car.


caveat - it's difficult to know if they're a threat.  I doubt it - I know where they live too!


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## Red (8 Apr 2008)

They trade up evry 2 years, so why are they still in a 2004 car? if they trade up to buy a second hand car, the second hand car itself will not be perfect & without scratches dents etc

In this current climate, car salesman would be all to delighted to make a sale & will over look small superficial damage. Couldn't see them knocking €900 or €200 off the trade in value of car due to small  scrape to bumper.
hese people need to get real. 

Offer them €200 cash or allow you take the car to your mechanic of choice to get repaired. 
I have heard of people handing over money to get crash repairs done. The other  person takes the money, but never bothers with the repairs and sells it on with the cash in thier pocket.

This guy saw you coming once you admitted liability


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## amgd28 (8 Apr 2008)

agwa said:


> all gone a bit pear-shaped once the husband got involved.  He's saying they trade up every 2 years and this will reduce the value of the car!



And she was driving a 2004 car? So they left this particular car for four years....
Sounds like he is out for all he can get, and has waded into to the situation to maximise his return. At this stage, I would be quite candid, that you were trying to be reasonable and accept some of the responsibility, but that due to the obvious attempts to extricate the max possible from you, you will withdraw your offer to compensate. Suggest that they go through their insurance.

I would also call a garda helpline and actually check out what they advise in such a situation, so that you cannot be bullied into a payment.

I hate seeing decent people being taken advantage of just because they are being decent. A taste of his own medicine and he won't be long regretting his aggressive tactics

Best of luck


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## colin79ie (8 Apr 2008)

Offer to get their bumper repaired. Pay the cost of that minus the vet fees for the dog. If they argue that then put the 'excessive speed, stopping distances in a built up area etc to them'

For the dog to be seriously injured from a collision with the bumber alone, then the speed was excessive. To crack one of those plastic bumbers takes quite a hit. Ask the vet if they could estimate the force of impact. They deal with that type of injury all the time and could probably tell you if the car was travelling fast.

Otherwise, go the legal route, albeit expensive.


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## ailbhe (8 Apr 2008)

I hate to point out the obvious but you are liable so you contacting the gardai etc is not going to get you anywhere as the dog should not have been out on the road. You say there are high walls in the drive. How was the driver supposed to see the dog if he ran out from behind there?
I agree that the quote seems high but at the end of the day it was your fault for letting the dog out. This woman is entitled to have her car repaired. If her hsband is being abusive I would tell her you wish to deal with her and not him as he intimidate your girlfriend. 
All the suggestions above (relating to give her €300 or tell her you will cver the vets fees and she will cover the car etc) should be ignored as the law is very clear as far as animals loose on the road go. 
And while it is her duty to drive with due care etc the "what if it was a child" argument is not valid as it was not a child. 
And if a child walks runs ut in front of a car from a place where they could not have been seen (e.g. from between parked cars) it is not the drivers fault and it is highly unlikely they would be prosecuted for dangerous driving. She managed to stop the car and she didn't do much damage to the dog which would indicate she wasn't going that fast. 
So I would source another reputable garage (preferably suzuki) to replace her bumper (personally I would be happy to have it fixed but she is entitled to a new one) at hopefully a lesser quote than she has obtained. i would then offer to pay the lower fee. If she is insistent then you don't have a lot of choice but to cough up or go down the solicitor route in order to force her to take the lower quote. 
I would also ask for a receipt for the €50 quote before I would pay it. 
And next time, keep the dog on a lead.


Also "The gate is at an entrance to a main road right at a large-ish roundabout so maybe the driver should have been driving a bit slower". Main road speed limit is 50km/hr. Can you prove she was speeding. The car behind her didn't hit her. You can't prove she was speeding. 

I wouldn't push this too far as you are totally responsible for the repairs to her car. There is no court in the land who will find in favour of you. I would offer to pay to have the crack fixed but the man is right about the depreciation. He would have to declare the bumper had been mended and it would affect resale.


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## agwa (8 Apr 2008)

Yeah - I assumed he meant they "trade up" to a nearly-new car.

I want to stand my ground and just pay for the crack to be fixed.  I'm actually going to ring home now...


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## agwa (8 Apr 2008)

Ailbhe - The dog ran out in front of her not behind her.  I'm admitting responsibility.  The main thrust of my argument is that I want to get it fixed not replaced.
You say she is entitled to a replacement - is this something you know or is it an opinion?

I think if it were any other type of car the dog would be dead - the plasticy bumper absorbed most of the impact.


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## Stephenkelly (8 Apr 2008)

Hi Agwa,
She in entitled to a new bumper, and i know this for a fact but don't be afraid to ask her to get 3 quotes done - You'll find that the cost to repair a crappy car is nearly as expensive as a premium car. If you admitted responsibility you should account for your actions and pay her. If I was in her situation I would like to dictate how my property was repaired and net you.


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## jhegarty (8 Apr 2008)

Stephenkelly said:


> She in entitled to a new bumper




No , she is only entitled to be put back in the position she was in before the accident (ie. a 2004 bumper).....


Offer 500 as a final settlement for the matter.... if the refuse invite them to take you to court....


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## Stephenkelly (8 Apr 2008)

"she is only entitled to be put back in the position she was in before the accident (ie. a 2004 bumper)....."

Your termonology is correct but under that clause she can demand a new bumber


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## mathepac (8 Apr 2008)

amgd28 said:


> Am I the only one here that thinks that this entire episode is a bit mad?
> I think agwa is being extremely generous to suggest that the driver's car be repaired at all, let alone at the garage of her choice (I mean, what's stopping the driver getting a msssive quote and splitting the difference with the garage.
> 
> As someone thankfully mentioned, what woudl be the situation if it was your son or daughter that ran out on the road? The driver would be facing charges of dangerous driving. If the driver was driving at speed in a residential area (as it must be, outside your house), then she should have been doing so at a speed that would allow avoidance of a dog or a child.
> ...


Personally, I believe you are on your own in relation to one part of your post, as OP has already conceded that the accident was the dog's / dog owner's / dog releaser's fault.

A dog in a public place must be kept on a lead. If the dog is not on a lead, then any accident or incident involving the dog is the responsibility of the owner.

What if the out-of-control dog had knocked a kid off his or her bike and s/he had been injured, would that be the child's fault as s/he was guilty of  cycling and "should have been doing so at a speed that would allow avoidance of a dog" and would you now be encouraging OP to threaten them with charges for reckless cycling?

Thankfully no human or dog was injured and the only matter for discussion is how much less than 900 euro the repair bill should be.


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## putsch (8 Apr 2008)

A dog ran out in front of my car back when I could barely afford to put petrol in it. There was absolutely no chance for me to do anything about it and I was shattered by the experience. The dog ran off - I never found out who owned him and got no compensation for the significant damage to my car. Had I found out who owned the dog I would have claimed.

My main point is that I can easily imagine a situation where the driver was absolutely in the right - so it just comes down to what is a fair price for the repair (and be glad she's not claiming for whiplash, nervous shock etc).


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## amgd28 (8 Apr 2008)

Look I absolutely agree with the previous two posts - but the OP has been extremely fair, held his hands up and is now being screwed as a result
In my book, if you play fair, the other side should. If they then turn around and try to screw you, then, not to put too fine a point on it, screw them!

The OP should be able to get quotes from dealers for "repair/replacement of Suzuki Liana front bumper". I think if he submits the best of these quotes to the claimant, then that is the max he should pay.


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## Murt10 (8 Apr 2008)

Whatever you do don't give them the money.

If you evenually decided to pay the E900, and I hope you don't, get them to have the repair carried out where they stated, and then you inspect it, and then you pay the garage for it.

At least they won't make anything out of you. I hate paying money to main dealers but I hate giving it to chancers like this even more.

I also wouldn't be too surprised if they don't accept E300 in cash. As another poster has said, they have no intention of getting the work done and they won't lose anything like E300 for a small carck when they do decide to trade the car in. 

Plus they will have to do without the car while the work is being carried out, or at least have the inconvienience of leaving the car in and picking it up again.



Murt


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## mathepac (9 Apr 2008)

Murt10 said:


> ...
> Plus they will have to do without the car while the work is being carried out, or at least have the inconvienience of leaving the car in and picking it up again...


Murt, you make a good point. The car doesn't need to be off the road for the repair to be carried out.

Leave the damaged one on the car, the body-shop prepares the replacement, Mrs. / Ms.2004 Suzuki Liana calls to body-shop when replacement is ready and leaves at most half an hour later with the replacement fitted, the job is Oxo.

As regards cost, its only a bleedin' plastic bumper and I'm sure Jeremy Clarkson has acres of them in his back-yard as this was the car featured for a while in the "Stars Who Mostly Can't Drive in a Cheap and Nasty Car" slot or whatever it was called. They broke enough of them to have dozens of plastic bumpers  to give away.


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## Bronte (9 Apr 2008)

I have young kids and I see it as my responsibility to make sure they do not go out in front of traffic, even in an estate where people are supposed to go slowly, so I don't see how all the comparison's with dogs and kids are fair.  In fact I'm terrified of all cars no matter how slow they are travelling, it's amazing how quickly a child can run out and cannot be seen due to their small size.  That is the parent's responsibility and I would blame myself if anything were to happen.  A dog is even quicker and smaller.  If you don't want to pay 900 then you tell the driver to sue you but bear in mind that could cost more than 900 particularly as you don't seem to have insurance.  Your girlfriend needs to get her dog insured in my opinion in case this happens again. 
As an aside I was on a motorway and a fox ran out and I swerved, my hubby told me it was better if I hit the animal (and killed it if necessary) rather than taking the risk of running into other cars and injuring another human being.


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## Marathon Man (9 Apr 2008)

agwa said:


> They don't have contents insurance


It doesn't come under the contents - AFAIK, it's Public Liability and probably comes packaged with the building insurance.

If you still want to DIY, get an estimate from a reputable repair shop and and offer them this amount, as take it or leave it.  Their choice is then to take you to court and prove negligence, or take the money.  You appear to be taking a reasonable and responsible approach, while they do not appear to be making any effort to minimise the claim, as evidenced by the €50 charge for the quote.  

The €50 is definitely unwarranted. Over the years my family & friends have had their fair share of 'fender benders' and have *NEVER* been charged for a quote.

The Suzuki dealer quote is also unwarranted. *NO* main dealer does repairs these days. The car *will* be subbed out to a body shop and the dealer will charge a mark-up, with labour (they have to bring 2 cars [the repair one and another to return in] and 2 men to the body shop) and more VAT on the mark-up.  By ringing around locally - it is going to be relatively local, you may even be able to find out which body shop the Suzuki dealer uses.


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## agwa (9 Apr 2008)

Hi All,

Thanks for all your comments.  I rang the people last night and after a long conversation I offered them 500 quid.  They accepted (as I thought they might).  I think some dog insurance is on the agenda!

Cheers,
Agwa


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## Megan (9 Apr 2008)

Good to know you got the matter sorted. I would like to know how the dog is. Was the dog badly injured?


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## agwa (10 Apr 2008)

Hi Megan,

The dog is totally fine - I'm convinced he's made of iron!  He's an 8 month old long-haired German Shepherd by the way.
The Vet reckons it helped that the dog didn't see the car coming so he didn't tense up when the impact came.  I also reckon the flimsy/plastic bumper absorbed a lot of the impact.  If it was a van or a more solid car the dog would be dead - and I would also be dead (by my girlfriend!)

Cheers,
agwa


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## gar123 (11 Apr 2008)

i get down the vet and get insured, you get a month free if applied for via vet, and sure you can do a check up at same time or ring him back and get covered

i have a long haired shep rough collie cross and a lab both have cut paws from glass in local green area and it cost me over € 700 in total for treatment, the shepkept pulling off bandages, i only had to pay €120 of this as excess


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## Megan (11 Apr 2008)

agwa said:


> Hi Megan,
> 
> The dog is totally fine - I'm convinced he's made of iron!  He's an 8 month old long-haired German Shepherd by the way.
> The Vet reckons it helped that the dog didn't see the car coming so he didn't tense up when the impact came.  I also reckon the flimsy/plastic bumper absorbed a lot of the impact.  If it was a van or a more solid car the dog would be dead - and I would also be dead (by my girlfriend!)
> ...


Good to know the dog is ok. I know you have settle this claim with the driver. Had you thought of that the car bumper might have being damage before she hit the dog. I know of a case where a car/van was hit from behind by a young driver  and the bumper was damage. The driver paid cash to the owner and the next day a delivery truck hit the same car/van before it was repaired. The delivery truck's Insurance arrange to have the car/van repaired. A nice little profit for the owner.


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## truthseeker (11 Apr 2008)

Megan said:


> Good to know the dog is ok. I know you have settle this claim with the driver. Had you thought of that the car bumper might have being damage before she hit the dog. I know of a case where a car/van was hit from behind by a young driver and the bumper was damage. The driver paid cash to the owner and the next day a delivery truck hit the same car/van before it was repaired. The delivery truck's Insurance arrange to have the car/van repaired. A nice little profit for the owner.


 
I was wondering about this myself - seems strange the dog has had no ill effects whatsoever if he hit a bumper hard enough to break it. I know the bumper is plastic but the car behind it is metal. You imagine the dog would at least be bruised.


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## agwa (14 Apr 2008)

Hi Guys,

The dog was bruised and had an injection and a couple of tablets.  He slept for a full day.  When I say the dog is totally fine, I mean he's fine now.  The car was pristine so I'm pretty sure it was caused by the collision.  The bumpers on those cars look quite flimsy (which may well have saved the dog's life)

Cheers,
agwa


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## wishbone (14 Apr 2008)

Mr Wishbone has had two minor knocks and on both occasions got the people to sign a letter we had stuck together along the terms, I accept this 500e as full and final payment for damage done to car make reg on the date and basically making sure they don't try to come back and sue...I do this all of my own free will blah blah blah...just to try to make it formal.  Anyway just a thought.  Glad to hear doggy OK.


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## mathepac (14 Apr 2008)

truthseeker said:


> I was wondering about this myself - seems strange the dog has had no ill effects whatsoever if he hit a bumper hard enough to break it. I know the bumper is plastic but the car behind it is metal. You imagine the dog would at least be bruised.


I had the misfortune to hit a hen-pheasant at about 50 mph. She ran out of the ditch on the drivers (my side) . There was a huge explosion of feathers and the plastic bumper and wheel-arch liner both broke. I think in modern cars these bits ARE designed to energy-absorbing and seem to deform at the least provocation. Mrs. Pheasant did not survive.


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