# Day of National Mourning



## tobo (4 Apr 2005)

Bertie has decided that the nation will not have a Day of National Mourning to mark the passing of Pope John Paul II.

I would like to know the criterion by which this decision was made, as I am confused as to why Ireland observed such a day after the 9/11 attacks but not upon the death of the spiritual leader of the predominant faith in this country (possibly the world?) and a truly remarkable man.

Does anyone else share my contempt for this decision?


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## Murt10 (4 Apr 2005)

I think it is even worse that we didn't have a National Day of Mourning for the 1/4 of a million or more people killed by the Tsunami.


Murt


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## ninsaga (4 Apr 2005)

The reason that we had a day of morning for 911 is that it was imposed upon us by the US - plain & simple - we 'dared' to work 'cause it would have offended them.
ninsaga


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## ubiquitous (4 Apr 2005)

RTE quoted a govt source this morning who said that the idea of a Day of Mourning was rejected for protocol reasons - if you have a DOM now for the Head of State of the Vatican, then questions would be asked if we did not do the same on the deaths of future Heads of State of other countries. I can see their point. 

There is also a valid argument that this would be also an issue on the death of any future British monarch (head of the Anglican Church, to which the Church of Ireland is affiliated) or even Dr. Ian Paisley (as head of the Free Presbyterians). The govt surely dont want to go down that road.

According to RTE, Poland and Italy are the only European countries to declare a DOM.


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## Purple (4 Apr 2005)

For many people this is a time of grief as one of the great men of the last 50 years passes on. Everyone should remember his key contribution to the defeat of communism and the impact he had on so many of the people who saw him in the 120 odd countries he visited.

I would be in favour of a national day of mourning if I thought for one minute that even half of those who claim to be RC and got the day off would go near a church.
The reality is that the churches were not packed out all weekend and would not be next Friday if it were given as a day off. 
Those people who wish to take the day off at their own expense should be accommodated by their employers but getting an extra days paid holidays to go to the local shopping centre would not be appropriate in this situation.


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## Miner (4 Apr 2005)

Ok so we had the day of mourning for 9/11 and an official minute (or was it 3?) silence for the tsunami and nothing for the Pope.  For once i agree with Bertie but i feel an official period of silence should at the very least be observed.


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## Slash (4 Apr 2005)

As an employer, I would consider a National DoM unacceptable, as I considered the DoM for 9/11 unacceptable.

Sorry.


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## Teabag (4 Apr 2005)

300,000 died in tsunami including several Irish tourists. 3000 died in 9/11.
100 times more people died in tsunami yet there was no mention of national day of mourning. Why ? Because the lives of Americans are a hundred times more valuable than the lives of Sri Lankans, Indonesians, Thai, Indian etc.....

If the death of 300,000 people or JPII does not warrant a day of national mourning, then what does ?


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## Purple (4 Apr 2005)

“Because the lives of Americans are a hundred times more valuable than the lives of Sri Lankans, Indonesians, Thai, Indian etc.....”

No, it was because the Americans invest hundreds of times more money in this country than the Sri Lankans, Indonesians, Thai, and Indian etc

Ditto the Vatican city.


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## ClubMan (4 Apr 2005)

tobo said:
			
		

> the spiritual leader of the predominant faith in this country (possibly the world?)



Wikipedia has some interesting statistics on the number of followers of different world religions.

I doubt that I'll be getting the day off but if I do I will certainly not be going shopping. I'll probably go to the Zoo instead.


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## Teabag (4 Apr 2005)

I dont think the Americans got any official time off to mourn around 9/11 and I know that many American companies in Ireland did not let their employees have the day off for the Day of National Mourning.

The 9/11 day of mourning was the big mistake and it set a precedent which the government are trying to ignore.


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## Slash (4 Apr 2005)

Bertie has decided we should have a national DoM, or maybe not. Well, maybe it is, then again maybe it's not.....schools have the option to close (great, now parents will have to make arrangements at short notice to have their children minded for the day). And employers should let their staff go to reflect, but they don't have to.....or maybe they do......Jeez, Bertie, either it is or it's not, if Bertie sees a fence, he can't help sitting on it.
See ireland.com Breaking News.


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## ClubMan (4 Apr 2005)

Wonder how they'll mark his passing at tonight's _Longford Town FC_ versus _Linfield FC_ game in the Setanta Cup! Should be fun... Maybe for parity of esteem they could burn an effigy of him while observing a minute's silence?


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## ashambles (4 Apr 2005)

On the suggestion that the Americans made us have a DOM for 9/11, this is completely untrue. The Americans didn't have a DOM, didn't care if we had one and only noticed when contacting any Irish colleagues they there was one. 

If we have a DOM now does that imply we insulted the memory of previous popes by not having DOMs for them, maybe we could backdate some DOMs - for the good popes at least. Some of the coverage indicated that there may be an elderly pope picked now as a sort of interim after JPII so maybe we'll need another papal DOM in a relatively short time. 

And if we do one for the tsunami, why not for the 2M who die every year for malaria, the 3M who die from aids etc.. Or should we restrict DOMs to one off televised events only?

Several countries have called periods of mourning, I'm only guessing but some of those periods must be largely symbolic. Can't see Egypt shutting down for 3 days. 

Bertie's wishy washy compromise isn't the worst, partially close the public sector for the day, the economy that pays their salaries may be able to struggle on without their trojan efforts for a few hours.


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## ClubMan (4 Apr 2005)

The widely voiced argument (e.g. on the radio all day today) that people need time off to go to mass seems to be a bit of a red herring. My father used to attend mass most days before going to work and he started at 8AM. A priest on the radio earlier on pointed out that closing down for a day of mourning was unnecessary and that people can pray anywhere. Mind you, I'd still enjoy a day off to go to the Zoo because I haven't been in ages.


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## ubiquitous (4 Apr 2005)

Has no-one ever heard of Evening Mass?


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## sherib (4 Apr 2005)

*Re: Day of National Mourning for the Class Act of the 20th C*

I had no idea of *the stature of Pope John Paul* but what I learned from watching (Sky, BBC) has left me *in awe*. Already it is being suggested he should be called Pope John Paul the Great. If so, he will be only the third pope in history to be so honoured. Honouring and respecting him would not set a precedent.

What I learned was that throughout his papapy he never ceased to work for *justice for every human* regardless of race, creed or colour. He apologised to the Jewish people and met with Muslim leaders on our behalf. That was long overdue. He didn't visit South Africa until Mandela was released. While I didn't always agree with his viewpoint on some issues, there is no doubting the respect and admiration that is being shown towards him by *world leaders* both political and religious. In spite of failing health he continued to represent all the voiceless peoples of this fragile earth by ceaselessly using his influence on their behalf in persuit of justice and peace. Clearly a giant of a man.

Prince Charles has postponed his wedding and Tony Blair his general election and we are doing......nothing. Bertie, the consumate ditherer, has done it again. The people of this country have to depend on our leader to do the right thing by us. IMO he has let us down. A *Day of National Mourning* has little to do with religion - it's about acknowleding to the world an exceptional human being.

People don't have to go to a Church or pray or 'reflect'. They are free to do as they please on the day. What would be so terrible if *commerce stopped for just one day?* Or is this our way of showing just how materialistic we have become? We were on our knees in 1979 when he visited us. Now we are rich and it doesn't seem to become us.


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## ClubMan (4 Apr 2005)

*Re: Day of National Mourning for the Class Act of the 20th C*



			
				sherib said:
			
		

> He apologised to the Jewish people and met with Muslim leaders on our behalf.


I presume you mean on behalf of _Catholics_? Please bear in mind that not all of &quot;us&quot; are _Catholics_. Thanks.



			
				sherib said:
			
		

> We were on our knees in 1979 when he visited us. Now we are rich and it doesn't seem to become us.


Ditto.


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## ClubMan (4 Apr 2005)

ClubMan said:
			
		

> Wonder how they'll mark his passing at tonight's _Longford Town FC_ versus _Linfield FC_ game in the Setanta Cup! Should be fun... Maybe for parity of esteem they could burn an effigy of him while observing a minute's silence?


Strangely enough:


_Linfield_ wore black armbands as a mark of respect
_Longford_ did not and
the _FAI_ allegedly instructed _Longford_ not to have a minute's silence before kick off.


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## ninsaga (4 Apr 2005)

Prince Charles has postponed his wedding and Tony Blair his general election and we are doing......nothing. 





> ..I don't think that we have any national event of significance that warrants postponement (although I wonder why Bertie didn't give the Dail an extra weeks recess as he was at it!!)
> 
> I also don't think that the DOM is going to come about now.. certainly though the event should be marked - with a minutes silence at a minimum. But why wait for the government to declare it? Why not have the church declare it?
> 
> ninsaga


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## sherib (4 Apr 2005)

*Re: Day of National Mourning - a class act in the 20th C*



> I presume you mean on behalf of _Catholics_? Please bear in mind that not all of &quot;us&quot; are _Catholics_. Thanks.


 
But of course. I should have been clearer that I meant on behalf of _*Christians*_ *world-wide.* Only a billion plus.  Or more accurately I meant - on behalf of non-Jewish humanity.  I don't recall any Christians dissenting to his apology to the Jewish people.  The full quote was: 



> ..throughout his papapy he never ceased to work for *justice for every human* regardless of race, creed or colour. He apologised to the Jewish people and met with Muslim leaders on our behalf.


 


> We were on our knees in 1979 when he visited us. Now we are rich and it doesn't seem to become us.





> Ditto.


 
Don't understand the second "ditto". As *a nation* Ireland was on its knees - economically.  If you don't know that I'm surprised.  Up to 50% of graduates had to emigrate. Large numbers went as illegals to the US. Others went to Australia or wherever they could find employment. It was much worse for those without training or qualifications. Days we would hope never to see again. Hope we can agree on that.


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## ClubMan (4 Apr 2005)

My simple point is that I and, I'm sure, others would like to opt out of your seemingly all encompassing/inclusive use of the terms "us" and "we" above in relation to the actions of the _Pope_ and the actions of certain people c. 26 years ago. By the way, there are millions of _Christians_ and other non _Jews_ worldwide who would also not accept that the _Pope_ acted on their behalf!


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## sherib (4 Apr 2005)

*Re: Day of National Mourning - Class Act of the 20th C*

Commenting out of context is unfair and unworthy. My point is simply that Pope John Paul endeavoured to represent* the oppressed* world wide and *succeeded* in many instances. The Berlin Wall has been mentioned as being one of those. All of this has and is being acknowledged by political and religious leaders worldwide. That is more than enough for me. He used his influence on behalf of humanity. If we had more leaders like that, the world would be a safer place. He didn't talk the talk - he walked the walk.

But it doesn't stop me feeling ashamed of our leader's lack of respect which others, of all denominations, are showing. 

Mincing words adds nothing. Nor do I presume to be speaking for anyone else. *No one* has ever dissented where the furtherance of peace and justice in the world was the late Pope's purpose. Hence "us" and "we". I wasn't referring to anything else.

It is also true there are burning issues that were pushed to the back burner such as the control of AIDS in Africa. Hopefully his successor will grasp those nettles. BTW, I am not hung up on religion. Greatness is given to very few in any century. Even fewer are those who use their power and influence in the interest of humanity. This Pope did.


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## Joe1234 (4 Apr 2005)

I could be wrong, but on the day of mourning for the 9/11 victims, were the shopping centres etc, not closed?  I believe that there should be a day fo mourning, but only if it applied to all employees.


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## ClubMan (4 Apr 2005)

*Re: Day of National Mourning - Class Act of the 20th C*



			
				sherib said:
			
		

> He used his influence on behalf of humanity.



He didn't betray much humanity in his pronouncements on homosexuals, their relationships and, especially, their preferred sexual practices. Quit the opposite in fact.


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## ubiquitous (4 Apr 2005)

*Re: Day of National Mourning for the Class Act of the 20th C*



			
				sherib said:
			
		

> Prince Charles has postponed his wedding and Tony Blair his general election and we are doing......nothing. Bertie, the consumate ditherer, has done it again. The people of this country have to depend on our leader to do the right thing by us. IMO he has let us down.



I am always amazed at the propensity of people in post-tiger Ireland to think that the world revolves around us and that we are somehow shamed if our gestures don't outdo those of every other country. Does anyone really care if the Slovenes or the Catalans give themselves a day off on Friday? I doubt it. Why then would they worry about the Irish?



			
				sherib said:
			
		

> What would be so terrible if commerce stopped for just one day?.


In all the hubbub I have yet to hear anyone offering to forego their wages on Friday, either by taking a day's leave to pray, or perhaps by working and donating their pay to a good cause. No thank you, we would much prefer if Bertie could force someone else to pick up the tab for us while we head for Liffey Valley.


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## tobo (5 Apr 2005)

ubiquitous said:
			
		

> RTE quoted a govt source this morning who said that the idea of a Day of Mourning was rejected for protocol reasons - if you have a DOM now for the Head of State of the Vatican, then questions would be asked if we did not do the same on the deaths of future Heads of State of other countries. I can see their point.
> 
> There is also a valid argument that this would be also an issue on the death of any future British monarch (head of the Anglican Church, to which the Church of Ireland is affiliated) or even Dr. Ian Paisley (as head of the Free Presbyterians). The govt surely dont want to go down that road.


 
Forget protocol! This is not an issue of diplomacy but rather one of responding to the remarkable, if not unique, national and global acclaim that JPII has received as one of the greatest and most inspiring world leaders of the past century. If there was anything like the same public clamour for a DOM on the passing of any other Head of state or religious leader then that should be considered also (I doubt the examples in the quote above would generate even a ripple of support!).

I also don't have a problem if some people want to go to the zoo or spend the day in the pursuit of retail therapy in any shops that remained open in the pursuit of profit. Those people would at least have an awareness of the person who made that day of freedom and pleasure possible. Others might attend a religious service and even more people of any or no religious belief might watch the funeral on TV and gain some moving and educational insights into the life and death of a truly holy man whose impact on the world was colossul


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## extopia (5 Apr 2005)

Catholics should also be mourning the collapse of their Church. Despite his many achievements, John Paul II presided over one of the worst periods of the church's history, and alienated himself from millions as result.

Day of mourning? Let's declare one, sure. However that doesn't have to mean a day off work.


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## sherib (5 Apr 2005)

*Re: Day of National Mourning - Class Act of the 20th C*

ubiquitous


> No thank you, we would much prefer if Bertie could force someone else to pick up the tab for us while we head for Liffey Valley.


Not everyone worships at the shrine of the shopping centre. But, if they do, that is their choice. This could be a day for people to do as they please without the pressure of the daily grind. Incidentally, Bertie has used the taxes of *everyone* in this country for high cost projects that some of us may have little interest in. For example to the GAA, Punchestown and others. A day of National Mourning is one that I would subscribe to - and have already as a compliant taxpayer. Nor do I care what the Slavs or others do. 

ClubMan


> He didn't betray much humanity in his pronouncements on homosexuals, their relationships and, especially, their preferred sexual practices. Quit the opposite in fact.


I agree, that was an ommission. These are theological questions that I sincerely hope will be resolved. There *is* a great need to show compassion and understanding towards all who are different to the mainstream. But there's a limit to what one individual can achieve in a lifetime.


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## gentle123 (5 Apr 2005)

I may be wrong, and can anyone clarify for me, did America observe a national day of mourning for 9/11?  I thought they didnt, and if so why on earth did we observe one??


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## Purple (5 Apr 2005)

According to the RTE news last night we are observing 6 days of national mourning. We are not all getting a day off work at someone else’s expense.
It seems to me that the idea that everyone should get a day off to go to the shop or zoo etc as a sign of respect for a man who wept on the alter in Poland on his last visit at how secular and comsumeristic his homeland had become is a bit out of keeping with the values that the man espoused.

Clubman, while I agree with your sentiments I think you are being a bit abrasive in your arguments. There is no need to dissect and deconstruct the detail of posts you disagree with, it's the sentiment expressed that counts.


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## Miner (5 Apr 2005)

My employers (private sector) have just announced that a prayer service will be held at work on Friday for all employees who wish to attend.  Our flags are also at half mast.  These gestures seem to have quashed the debate at work as to whether we need a DOM and most people seem happy with it.


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## extopia (5 Apr 2005)

It depends on what you mean by a Day of National Mourning.

I was living and working in the US at the time of the World Trade Center attacks. There was no day off work, but there was certainly national mourning. The American people did not seem to need guidance from government officials on when, how and where they should mourn the deaths of their countrymen and women. Churches of all persuasions were filled to overflowing during normal services in the weeks and months following the events. 






			
				gentle123 said:
			
		

> I may be wrong, and can anyone clarify for me, did America observe a national day of mourning for 9/11?  I thought they didnt, and if so why on earth did we observe one??


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## gentle123 (5 Apr 2005)

Yeah thats what i meant, we in ireland had a day off work, Why, when the americans didnt have a day off work.


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## extopia (5 Apr 2005)

Because the Americans did not see any connection between mourning and getting off work. That seems to be a peculiarly Irish phenomemon.


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## Chris (5 Apr 2005)

I think there should be a day of national mourning and I suggest the following: Sunday is the day of morning, pubs have to close at 8pm on Saturday and not open until Monday, and all retail outlets should be closed.
I think that would be something the late pope would have wanted. As I don't think the governement would have the balls to do that, people are more than welcome to attend mass at 7am before they go to work. The laziness of people shocks me sometimes.


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## Slash (5 Apr 2005)

This is all being driven by the bloody teachers who just want yet another day off work. Why can't the teachers conduct suitable exercises in the schools to help the pupils with the mourning process? If the schools are closed and the kids are being minded because their parents are at work, will the kids be mourning or will they be watching telly?
The whole thing is bloody nonsense.


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## oysterman (5 Apr 2005)

What have the teachers done to deserve this?

If the president of your local sports club dies, you'd expect the club to close on the day of the funeral as a markof respect.

The head of the RC church has died so I'd expect many RC operations (including schools under RC trusteeship) to do likewise.

If you have a problem with this, have a go at the Church - can't really see why the teachers should get caught in the crossfire.


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## Vanilla (5 Apr 2005)

Am I being really thick or is there an obvious explanation as to why Cuba is having three days of mourning?


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## Noor77 (5 Apr 2005)

I think that there should be a day of mourning as a mark of respect to the Pope, in rememberance of his role as a spiritual leader. I think it is dreadful that the small firms association or whatever it is can come out and say that the economy would lose €600 million and that is why we should not have a day of mourning. It is particularly sad that something like this has to be reduced to purely economic terms. One of my parents is Catholic and the other is non-Christian, and the non-Christian parent feels strongly that Friday should be a day of mourning. I don't think having such a day will upset thw non-Christian peoples of Ireland. My ex partner (with whom I am very good terms) is a shi'a Muslim from Lebanon and is delighted that his country is having an official day of mourning - and this day is not just for the Maronite Christians of Lebanon but for all religions in the country, or anyone that has a spiritual side and who would like to remember the passing of a world spiritual leader.

I do not agree with many of the teachings of the Catholic Church - and especially it's view of the role of women in modernity, but that does not mean I cannot admire the Pope as a human being of immense spiritual beliefs. I too, would be more inclined to go to the zoo or the park on Friday, but I would certainly be reflecting on the Pope's life.


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## Henny Penny (5 Apr 2005)

I am sorry that JP2 died, but he was old and sick and it was probably his time ... if anyone was a sure bet to get into heaven it's surely him! As regards a day of mourning ... I will not mourne him, I will celebrate his life by doing something to remember him on Friday. My daughter has no school on Friday ... I doubt she even knows who the pope is ... I wonder could the same be said of the public servants who are getting the day off?


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## Gabriel (5 Apr 2005)

As a non-practising Catholic I actually DO believe that a national day of mourning would have been acceptable in Ireland. Close the pubs too in his honor to stop the usual Paddy's day debacle.

I say this as someone who doesn't agree with the church's stance on a great many subjects - including contraception, the role of women, divorce and abortion.

I'm also appalled by some of the would be successors, one of whom described gays in the eighties as "instrinsic moral evil"!!!! 

Be that as it may, and as much as the Pope was a controversial figure...he strove for peace and unity across the world and did a great deal of good. Acknowledging that would not be a bad thing. 

Personally having a DOM for 911 and not having one for the Tsunami victims was wrong. Large life changing events of that magnitude should always be noted by the general public.


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## MissRibena (5 Apr 2005)

I'm completely against a national day of mourning, as I was when we had one for September 11th.  Masses in my town are on before work and after work every day of the week and will be held on Friday too. If people wish to attend, that's up to them. 

I am totally perplexed at the coverage of the pope's illness and subsequent death. As far as I can see, it's mostly a product of media that are  too lazy to report on what is happening in the world and have spent the last number of years compiling newsreels to run when the inevitable happened. Even my father (who goes to Mass daily) was muttering yesterday that the publicity fuelled outpouring of grief was undignified. I'm disappointed that Ireland hasn't moved on a little further from its Catholic roots but am glad, for once, that at least the government aren't losing the run of themselves (can't believe I'm saying that).   Perplexed as I am, I would be much more perplexed in the UK where the prime minister refuses to attend the crown prince's nuptuals to attend the funeral of a religious leader of a small minority of citizens.

I'm a comitted atheist. I believe in live and let live and doing it with a bit of dignity and without infringing on others as far as possible.  A day of mourning would be of no relevance to me and plenty of others and would be an inconvenience, if anything. Would we have a national day of mourning if Bill Clinton died after all he did in the North? Or what about Nelson Mandella? Did we do anthing about Ghandi? What about Bono or Bob Geldof? These are all men who have done lots of good in their lives (at varying levels) and who I admire more than the pope. How do the victims of abuse at the hands of clergy feel? The Catholic Church aren't providing the proper compensation and gave a wishy-washy apology and now we want a public holiday to remember the man at the head of all that. There are plenty of adverse effects of Catholic policy during John Paul II's papacy that could be listed to balance the claims of greatness.  

And I want the real news back. What's happening in the rest of the world? How are the Tsunami people? What's going on in Iraq? What exactly was that UN job Dermot Ahern got?

Rebecca


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## Noor77 (5 Apr 2005)

_I'm disappointed that Ireland hasn't moved on a little further from its Catholic roots but am glad, for once, that at least the government aren't losing the run of themselves _


As far as I can see - it has nothing to do with being Catholic at all, as a quick poll of my nearest and dearest reinforced:

Mum (Jewish) - Yes we should have a mourning day
Best friend (Lutheran) - same as above
Ex boyfriend (Shi'a Muslim) - same as above
Japanese friend (Atheist) same as above
Work colleague (Buddhist) - same as above
Work Colleague (Catholic) - same as above
Dad (Catholic) - doesn't mind either way
Uncle (Atheist) - shouldn't have day of mourning


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## CCOVICH (5 Apr 2005)

Noor77 said:
			
		

> _I'm disappointed that Ireland hasn't moved on a little further from its Catholic roots but am glad, for once, that at least the government aren't losing the run of themselves _
> 
> 
> As far as I can see - it has nothing to do with being Catholic at all, as a quick poll of my nearest and dearest reinforced:
> ...


 
Did all of the above give their reasons why they believe we should have a day of mourning?


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## Fat Tony (5 Apr 2005)

Well that about sums up my opinion on the whole thing - no matter what faith people are, they just want the day off!


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## Noor77 (5 Apr 2005)

Somebody wondered earlier on why Tony Blair is attending the funeral. I would imagine it is because his wife Cherie is Catholic, as are their children - they all attend (including Daddy Blair) Catholic mass every Sunday.

Noor


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## MissRibena (5 Apr 2005)

My (mostly Catholic) family and friends are against a national day of mourning, with me being the most adamant. My boyfriend is Christian Orthodox and is not bothered either way. No one I know experessed any wish to have one other than as a handy day off work and most agree that coverage is way OTT. If we go by this voxpop then, it seems that the pope means more to people who are not Catholic; which I doubt is the case, so they really don't count for much.  

Rebecca


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## MissRibena (5 Apr 2005)

Noor77 said:
			
		

> I would imagine it is because his wife Cherie is Catholic



Yes, and Tony is allegedly all set to convert to RC himself after he leaves his prime ministerial role.  If that is the case, I think it says a lot about him and the relationship between his personal faith and his job. If he was so convinced by Catholicism and his wife's faith meant so much to him, you would think upsetting the majority of Protestant voters wouldn't matter so much. 

His wife's religious persuasion should not give rise to the prime minister declining to attend the wedding of the crown prince, future head of the Church of England. And no better woman than Cherie Booth QC to attend a funeral all on her ownsome.

Rebecca


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## Noor77 (5 Apr 2005)

MissRibena said:
			
		

> it seems that the pope means more to people who are not Catholic; which I doubt is the case, so they really don't count for much.
> 
> Rebecca


 
I beg to differ on non-Catholics not counting for much! The '50%' of me that is non Catholic is not impressed!

I thought this forum was just for expressing our opinions, not for pulling apart the views of others or making what might be construed as 'unsavoury' comments.

Aside from any religious connotations, as head of the Vatican, the Pope was a Head of State, so it is not unusual that other heads of state would attend his funeral


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## MissRibena (5 Apr 2005)

MissRibena said:
			
		

> If we go by this voxpop then, it seems that the pope means more to people who are not Catholic; which I doubt is the case, so they really don't count for much.



Noor, did it not cross your mind that however poorly worded it may seem, I might have meant that vox-pops don't count for much?  As a non-catholic myself, I would hardly have meant what you construed!  

To me, a discussion is the teasing out of what others have to say as well as means of examing your own views properly and maybe changing your mind or others' in the process. I stand over everything I say and am willing to clarify any points I make.  There is nothing "unsavoury" about disagreeing.

As to the subject in hand; it's not Tony Blair's attendance at the funeral that is noteworthy, but rather, as I've already mentioned, his declining to attend the wedding of the future head of state of the country of which he is prime minister. 

Rebecca


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## jem (5 Apr 2005)

Noor77 said:
			
		

> I think that there should be a day of mourning as a mark of respect to the Pope, in rememberance of his role as a spiritual leader. I think it is dreadful that the small firms association or whatever it is can come out and say that the economy would lose €600 million and that is why we should not have a day of mourning. It is particularly sad that something like this has to be reduced to purely economic terms..


Fine, so I am sure that you won't mind giving up your days pay for the day off.
I have read and listened to all this about everyone should be given the day off. I have no problem with this buy why should the employers have to pick up the tab? 
I would sugest that we have the day off and no-one gets paid, unless they actually work that day and then only for a normal days wages, not double time etc. 
Some times I don't know whether to laugh or cry when I hear unions etc.


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## Noor77 (5 Apr 2005)

No Jem, I actually wouldn't mind giving up a days pay.
Basically, I don't feel that the Taoiseach will change his mind on Friday being an official day of mourning, but there are a lot of people around the country that would like if he did. I am generally not an advocate of these kinds of days off - I was very against the one we had for 9/11.

Noor


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## ashambles (5 Apr 2005)

I don't believe it was announced that Tony Blair would decline attending the wedding, he hardly said this publicly, it was suggested in the press this would be his preference, but once the funeral date was decided it was obvious that the wedding was going to be moved Tony Blair being there or not. The Archbishop would have wanted to attend the funeral, a royal representative would have wanted to, normally this would be Charles, and Tony Blair would have wanted to. 

Someone also suggested that the English election was postponed, it was the declaration of the election only.

Seating arrangements will be interesting with so many big wigs going, think I heard 200 world leaders (2 for most countries I suppose)  + spouses + minders. Do they go alphabetical, by catholicness, wealth...


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## MissRibena (6 Apr 2005)

It's neither here nor there really but Tony Blair didn't announce it publicly (why would he). However on the pope's death, the royal family issued a statement saying the wedding was still on and it was only a couple of days later that the wedding date changed and the BBC said it was down to Tony Blair and the Archbishop of Canterbury having revised their RSVPs. Initially, Prince Charles had no intention of attending the pope's funeral. 

To me and plenty of others, the significance of pope's death has been blown completely out of proportion.  Has anyone else noticed the shift from liberal to conservative thinking in the last couple of years?  I think the attention teh death of the pope has received is only part of a gradual seachange.  Part of Bush's election success was attributed to his conservative views based on religous beliefs. Next thing we know, it turns out Tony Blair is also very religious, although I can't remember any great mention of this piousness before and certainly not during his first election campaign. He seems to be turning more conservative than the conservatives. Now the pope is lauded for standing by what he believes in eventhough what he stood for is very conservative by comparison with life on the ground in Europe.  It seems that there's a greater acceptance of prejudiced views so long as the holder can back them up with a "deep religious faith".  History shows that periods of decadence, which you could argue that the nineties up to 911 were, swing back abrubtly to a socially restrictive oppositive (Georgian -> Victorian, WW2 -> Fifties, The Twenties -> Thirties). I find it pretty worrying, especially as a woman.

Rebecca


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## crollydolly (6 Apr 2005)

ninsaga said:
			
		

> Prince Charles has postponed his wedding and Tony Blair his general election and we are doing......nothing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## DOBBER22 (6 Apr 2005)

I also do not agree with a day off work to mourn the pope if people want to show their respect then they can get to their parish church and pray for him
a day off work for most people = shopping trip or a pub excursion.

My view is in no way affected by the fact that I am off this Friday 

Tee hee hee


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## DublinTexas (6 Apr 2005)

Why does a DOM automatically associates with DOW (Day of Work)?

If one believes that he would like to mourn the death the leader of his faith or the leader of a separate state, than that is his right, but why does that mean that everyone has to take a day off?

If one would like to have a day off for the funeral, than I’m sure that s/he can apply for holidays and if possible an employer would give off.

I’m pro separation of state and church and as good of a leader/man/person JOPII was, he is still a foreign leader and a head of a church! So who wants to mourn should do it but not automatically expect that everybody mourns and get’s a day off.

Last time I checked nobody has a DOM for the millions dying of hunger, AIDS (for which the catholic church has responsibility too), civil war, natural disasters and else.

Where are we drawing the line here?

Otherwise I want a day off, when the Chief Rabbi dies, the Archbishop of some fuzzy church, the head of the some banana republic and I’m sure there are dozen of other similar (head of state/church) areas. 

In short – mourning does not mean a day off – you can mourn silently and attend mass or any other religious ceremony outside working hours.


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## sherib (6 Apr 2005)

*Re: It's over.  There is no day of National Mourning!*

I don't understand all these increasingly oppositional posts. It's done and dusted. *There is no day of national mourning.* Those of us who feel otherwise can do our own thing at our own expense. That should keep everyone happy. 

Now I see why this is called "Letting Off Steam"! Or could it be that many people (I almost said "we" - mea culpa) are so stressed they could do with a day off? At their own expense of course. 

sherib


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## MissRibena (7 Apr 2005)

Ah now sherib, people are still entitled to discuss decisions of our fearless leader even after the event. It's called a democracy. Where you are going wrong is thinking that everyone should or could be kept happy! 

Rebecca


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## DOBBER22 (7 Apr 2005)

MissRibena said:
			
		

> Ah now sherib, people are still entitled to discuss decisions of our fearless leader even after the event. It's called a democracy. Where you are going wrong is thinking that everyone should or could be kept happy!
> 
> Rebecca


 
Ah very well done


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