# My brother a Catholic is marrying a Jehova's Witness.



## winnie101 (5 Jul 2008)

My brother has just got engaged to a girl woman is Jehova's Witness.  

They are planning on on having a civil cermony abroad next year.

She is a practicing Jehova's Witness whereas my brother is in the process of converting to Jehovas Witness even though he was raised a Catholic...

I dont know much about this religion....so really I'm looking for information as to what happens after the cermony..eg children, communions, baptims etc


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## shesells (5 Jul 2008)

*Re: 1/2 catholic and jw wedding...*

One of my schoolfriends was a Jehova's Witness and the two most memorable things for me is that they don't celebrate birthdays or Christmas. 

There's also the issue of not accepting blood transfusions. 

It's a huge step for your brother to take. He must really love her.


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## ajapale (5 Jul 2008)

*Re: 1/2 catholic and jw wedding...*

Jehova's Witness from Wikipedia.


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## michaelm (8 Jul 2008)

*Re: 1/2 catholic and jw wedding...*



shesells said:


> There's also the issue of not accepting blood transfusions.


This is the most serious point.  What will your brother do should he, his wife or a future child of theirs require blood in a life or death situation? - although the courts might intervene in certain circumstances anyway.


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## ClubMan (8 Jul 2008)

winnie101 said:


> My brother has just got engaged to a girl woman is Jehova's Witness.
> 
> ...
> 
> I dont know much about this religion....so really I'm looking for information as to what happens after the cermony..eg children, communions, baptims etc


Why don't you ask your future sister in law?


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## fobs (8 Jul 2008)

ClubMan said:


> Why don't you ask your future sister in law?


 
Maybe she wants unbiased opinion...


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## winnie101 (8 Jul 2008)

I have asked this question of blood transfusion and the answer im getting is that there is other alternatives out there for jehova's witness (as to what they are im not sure and she didnt specify ) 

I feel as we were not getting the full truth from her just the nice answers that she wants us to believe..


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## ClubMan (8 Jul 2008)

Sorry - who is "us"? You and who else? If your brother is happy to marry this woman is that not his business and all that matters? Or am I missing something here?


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## mathepac (8 Jul 2008)

@winnie101 - Are these things you ask about problems or "issues" for your brother, who after all is the one apparently embracing a new religion and partner, or are you and the rest of the family (my interpretation of "we" above) just being idly curious?


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## shesells (9 Jul 2008)

winnie101 said:


> I have asked this question of blood transfusion and the answer im getting is that there is other alternatives out there for jehova's witness (as to what they are im not sure and she didnt specify )
> 
> I feel as we were not getting the full truth from her just the nice answers that she wants us to believe..


 
Depending on how strict she is there are 2 types of blood refusal. One is all blood products where a Witness will not accept any blood or blood derivatives. Some less conservative Witnesses will accept blood products such as plasma, white cells etc but not whole blood.

Saline is most commonly suggested as an alternative for blood and it works in some cases undoubtedly. However there are cases where blood is needed to save lives which is why doctors have had to go to court to battle for the lives of their patients. 

I was a bit tired when I wrote my first post hence the Christmas and Birthday thing coming before blood at the time. But now my feelings over blood are coming back as strong as they were during the last court case. Parents willing to let their children die rather than have them accept blood, how horrible!


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## Ash 22 (9 Jul 2008)

mathepac said:


> @winnie101 - Are these things you ask about problems or "issues" for your brother, who after all is the one apparently embracing a new religion and partner, or are you and the rest of the family (my interpretation of "we" above) just being idly curious?


 
This is her brother she is worried about. If it were my brother I would be equally as worried. I would'nt call it curious, more caring would be the word I'd use.


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## mathepac (9 Jul 2008)

Ash 22 said:


> This is her brother she is worried about. If it were my brother I would be equally as worried. I would'nt call it curious, more caring would be the word I'd use.



I didn't call it anything, I asked a question.



mathepac said:


> @winnie101 -  or are you and the rest of the family (my interpretation of "we" above) just being idly curious?


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## joejoe (9 Jul 2008)

*Re: 1/2 catholic and jw wedding...*



michaelm said:


> This is the most serious point. What will your brother do should he, his wife or a future child of theirs require blood in a life or death situation? - although the courts might intervene in certain circumstances anyway.


 
There are many alternitives to a blood transfusion. by the way I am not a J.W. The problem in Ireland is the health system is so far behind, not all / many hospitals offer options between real blood and the alternitives.

Joejoe


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## joejoe (9 Jul 2008)

shesells said:


> Depending on how strict she is there are 2 types of blood refusal. One is all blood products where a Witness will not accept any blood or blood derivatives. Some less conservative Witnesses will accept blood products such as plasma, white cells etc but not whole blood.
> 
> Saline is most commonly suggested as an alternative for blood and it works in some cases undoubtedly. However there are cases where blood is needed to save lives which is why doctors have had to go to court to battle for the lives of their patients.
> 
> I was a bit tired when I wrote my first post hence the Christmas and Birthday thing coming before blood at the time. But now my feelings over blood are coming back as strong as they were during the last court case. Parents willing to let their children die rather than have them accept blood, how horrible!


 
What court case, did there childern get blood, did the childern die? 

Joejoe


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## DavyJones (9 Jul 2008)

I think the court case involved a lady giving birth who lost a lot of blood. The hospital gave a blood transfusion to save the mothers life against her wishes. She latter sued the hospital for assualt and lost, I belive.

Don't belive there is any mention of a court case involving children in shesells post, just a reference that Jehova's witness's are willing to take a hardcore stance on the issue.

Thankfully Irish hospitals still have a strong grip of the hippocratic oath.


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## PMU (9 Jul 2008)

winnie101 said:


> really I'm looking for information as to what happens after the cermony


  I think they play "All along the Watch Tower"


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## Caveat (9 Jul 2008)

PMU said:


> I think they play "All along the Watch Tower"


 
 ...one of the more bizarre quips on _AAM_


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## ClubMan (9 Jul 2008)

Ash 22 said:


> This is her brother she is worried about. If it were my brother I would be equally as worried. I would'nt call it curious, more caring would be the word I'd use.


Her brother is presumably an adult who can make his own decisions in life?


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## Pique318 (9 Jul 2008)

Here's a good example as to why people are worried about what Jehovahs Witnesses attitudes are towards blood...utter madness IMO.

[broken link removed]


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## Ash 22 (9 Jul 2008)

ClubMan said:


> Her brother is presumably an adult who can make his own decisions in life?


 
Yes I'm sure he can but its only natural that we worry about our siblings. Its part of being human I suppose.


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## ClubMan (9 Jul 2008)

Ash 22 said:


> Yes I'm sure he can but its only natural that we worry about our siblings. Its part of being human I suppose.


In some cases (not necessarily this one) it's also part of being a nosey busybody who can't let others live their own lives as they choose.


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## Lauren (9 Jul 2008)

ClubMan said:


> In some cases (not necessarily this one) it's also part of being a nosey busybody who can't let others live their own lives as they choose.


 
Yep would have to agree with you on that one!


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## Ash 22 (9 Jul 2008)

Maybe so in some cases but I think here Winnie is genuinely concerned for her brother and her future nephews and nieces.


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## Ciaraella (9 Jul 2008)

What's the harm in the OP asking the question? Personally if i was in the situation i'd like to get information from as many different sources as possible and posting in a forum like this will get views from many different typs of people.


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## ClubMan (9 Jul 2008)

Ciaraella said:


> What's the harm in the OP asking the question?


Nothing - who said that there was?

_winnie101 _- just curious - if you don't like what you hear/learn about the religion in question then what are you going to do? I presume you respect your brother's right to choose a wife and religion as he sees fit?


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## annR (9 Jul 2008)

ClubMan said:


> Nothing - who said that there was?
> 
> _winnie101 _- just curious - if you don't like what you hear/learn about the religion in question then what are you going to do? I presume you respect your brother's right to choose a wife and religion as he sees fit?


 
Your last sentence is a statement with a question mark after it - I think you should leave out the question mark and put a full stop there.


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## ClubMan (9 Jul 2008)

No - it's a question alright.


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## michaelm (9 Jul 2008)

ClubMan said:


> I presume you respect your brother's right to choose a wife and religion as he sees fit?


Indeed.  But the above and telling your brother your thoughts and/or concerns on the matter are not mutually exclusive courses of action.


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## Ciaraella (9 Jul 2008)

ClubMan said:


> Nothing - who said that there was?


 
well the tone of some of the replies are insinuating that the OP is a nosey busybody who's looking for something negative to say about Jehova's witnesses rather than giving an answer to what seems to me a perfectly fine query


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## shesells (9 Jul 2008)

If any of my siblings decided to convert then I'd be panicking and searching for any information which may dissuade them which may be what the OP is trying to do?

The article linked on page 1 scared the life out of me, I remember reading it at the time. There's a fine line between religious freedom and child abuse!


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## joejoe (9 Jul 2008)

shesells said:


> If any of my siblings decided to convert then I'd be panicking and searching for any information which may dissuade them which may be what the OP is trying to do?
> 
> The article linked on page 1 scared the life out of me, I remember reading it at the time. There's a fine line between religious freedom and child abuse!


 
If your concerns are with regards child abuse / religious freedom, you should be happy that person is leaving the Catholic Church and going to the JW.

Joejoe


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## shesells (9 Jul 2008)

joejoe said:


> If your concerns are with regards child abuse / religious freedom, you should be happy that person is leaving the Catholic Church and going to the JW.
> 
> Joejoe


 
I'm not condoning what certain members of the catholic church did but those were down to individuals. But your reply is the stuff of soundbites and vox pops.

The policy of refusing blood transfusions is a church policy for Jehovah's Witnesses and that  is a totally different issue.


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## Purple (9 Jul 2008)

DavyJones said:


> Thankfully Irish hospitals still have a strong grip of the hippocratic oath.


 Irish doctors don't take the hippocratic oath. 

_THE HIPPOCRATIC OATH
I swear by Apollo the physician, by Æsculapius, Hygeia, and Panacea, and I take to witness all the gods, all the goddesses, to keep according to my ability and my judgement, the following Oath.


"To consider dear to me as my parents him who taught me this art; to live in common with him and if necessary to share my goods with him; to look upon his children as my own brothers, *to teach them this art if they so desire without fee or written promise*; to impart to my sons and the sons of the master who taught me and the disciples who have enrolled themselves and have agreed to the rules of the profession, but to these alone the precepts and the instruction. I will prescribe regimen for the good of my patients according to my ability and my judgement and never do harm to anyone. *To please no one will I prescribe a deadly drug nor give advice which may cause his death. Nor will I give a woman a pessary to procure abortion.* But I will preserve the purity of my life and my art. I will not cut for stone, even for patients in whom the disease is manifest; I will leave this operation to be performed by practitioners, specialists in this art. In every house where I come I will enter only for the good of my patients, keeping myself far from all intentional ill-doing and all seduction and especially from the pleasures of love with women or with men, be they free or slaves. All that may come to my knowledge in the exercise of my profession or in daily commerce with men, which ought not to be spread abroad, I will keep secret and will never reveal. If I keep this oath faithfully, may I enjoy my life and practice my art, respected by all men and in all times; but if I swerve from it or violate it, may the reverse be my lot." _


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## joejoe (9 Jul 2008)

shesells said:


> I'm not condoning what certain members of the catholic church did but those were down to individuals. But your reply is the stuff of soundbites and vox pops.
> 
> The policy of refusing blood transfusions is a church policy for Jehovah's Witnesses and that is a totally different issue.


 
No its not, your talking non-sense. People have diffrent beleives, if the health service in this country is not fit to deal with their choices, thats the problem of the HSE not the fault of the religon. In any case blood transfusions in this country have a very bad track record, remeber the Hepp C infections due to a badly run health system, people died because they choose a blood transfusion and the health services is not getting better MRSA etc... etc... etc

Joejoe


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## gabsdot (9 Jul 2008)

There is a lot more to the JW religion that blood transfusions. You should have a conversation with your future SIL about her beliefs. Have an open mind about it. 
Try not to worry. Your brother's not going to grow 2 heads or anything.


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## ClubMan (9 Jul 2008)

Ciaraella said:


> well the tone of some of the replies are insinuating that the OP is a nosey busybody who's looking for something negative to say about Jehova's witnesses rather than giving an answer to what seems to me a perfectly fine query


Well some people may well be of that opinion but nobody has said that the original poster should not have posted the query as you originally suggested. Having posted the query though others are free to post their opinions and comments within the posting guidelines.


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## shesells (10 Jul 2008)

joejoe said:


> No its not, your talking non-sense. People have diffrent beleives, if the health service in this country is not fit to deal with their choices, thats the problem of the HSE not the fault of the religon. In any case blood transfusions in this country have a very bad track record, remeber the Hepp C infections due to a badly run health system, people died because they choose a blood transfusion and the health services is not getting better MRSA etc... etc... etc
> 
> Joejoe


 
I am not talking nonsense. My post did say there was a fine line between freedom of religion and child abuse in the case of blood transfusions. Read the article linked on page 1.

The HSE, Hep C etc are all irrelevant in this context. This thread is about Jehovah's Witnesses not the state of the health system in this country. Or the catholic church.

Blood transfusions save lives, blood products save lives. As a scientist I am aware of the alternatives and have been involved in studies on some of them when I worked in the UK. We still need blood. Doctors would not bring patients to court to get an order allowing them to give blood if the alternatives were good enough.

PS Mods, maybe this thread now belongs in LOS?


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## ClubMan (10 Jul 2008)

joejoe said:


> No its not, your talking non-sense. People have diffrent beleives, if the health service in this country is not fit to deal with their choices, thats the problem of the HSE not the fault of the religon.


*That *is nonsense! For example, if I believe that homeopathic potions or religious relics or appeals to mystical beings can cure cancer do you think that the _HSE _should cater for this? Of course not! They should deal with scientifically proven methodologies and treatments and, if necessary, the courts should deal (on constitutional rights grounds) with those who obstruct their application to non consenting others (e.g. children).



shesells said:


> PS Mods, maybe this thread now belongs in LOS?


Yes. Moved.


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## shesells (10 Jul 2008)

Thank you Clubman, a voice of reason in the madness of a couple of threads tonight!


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## joejoe (10 Jul 2008)

shesells said:


> I am not talking nonsense. My post did say there was a fine line between freedom of religion and child abuse in the case of blood transfusions. Read the article linked on page 1.
> 
> The HSE, Hep C etc are all irrelevant in this context. This thread is about Jehovah's Witnesses not the state of the health system in this country. Or the catholic church.
> 
> ...


 
What has religion got to do with child abuse, it the individuals or small minority that carry these sick acts, using the religion as a smoke screen. More relevently what has child abuse got to do the op concerns? My personal opinion is that the op should not be concerned about child abuse in JW no more than she should be in the Catholic religion.

"As a scientist I am aware of the alternatives" what did your studies reveal, and how many blood alternitives did you study?

The blood issue, is not as great as you seem to think, how often does the average "Joe" need a blood transfusion? Granted in some extreme cases blood should be used as a last resort, in the interim all the alteritives should be applied. Of course this is if the hosipal is equiped to offer them, problem been most are not. Doctors in Ireland use blood products because thats what they know. 

To the OP you have notting to be concerned about after all its your brothers life, why dont you invite some JW in the next time they knock on your door? They wont do any thing but try and and answer your questions in a nice and friendly manner.

For the record I am a non-practicing catholic (like the most of ireland) not a JW.

Joejoe


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## joejoe (10 Jul 2008)

ClubMan said:


> *That *is nonsense! For example, if I believe that homeopathic potions or religious relics or appeals to mystical beings can cure cancer do you think that the _HSE _should cater for this? Of course not! They should deal with scientifically proven methodologies and treatments and, if necessary, the courts should deal (on constitutional rights grounds) with those who obstruct their application to non consenting others (e.g. children).
> 
> 
> Yes. Moved.


 
Blood products and the alternitives are hardly homeopathic potions, people outside of the JW need these options due to various medical reasons, that is why they have been developed.

Joejoe


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## Purple (10 Jul 2008)

You are grasping a straws joejoe.
If a fundamentalist Muslim does not want his 15 year old daughter operated on by a male doctor after a car crash do you think she should be let die?
If you do not then your position visa vie blood products and Jehovah's Witness's is inconsistent.


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## MrMan (10 Jul 2008)

> If your concerns are with regards child abuse / religious freedom, you should be happy that person is leaving the Catholic Church and going to the JW.
> 
> Joejo


Silly comment, I don't think any of the abusers in the church checked the faith of their victims. 

The OP might be of the mind that some others are in that joining a religion might leave her brother open to 'brainwashing'. Atheists don't agree with religion and each religion has an unhealthy wariness of other religions. I think its just natural for the OP to worry about her brother, but the simplest thing to do is talk to him and the sil to discuss things and how it will affect the family. Maybe the sister is open to some compromise and will join you for xmas dinner they don't have to celbrate it (how many catholics at this stage actually celebrate the birth of christ rather than just celebrate?) Don't over play the religion side of things and realise that it will still be your brother.


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## Remix (10 Jul 2008)

Actually it could be worse. Imagine if he was marrying one of those annoying smarmy individuals who likes nothing better than to tell people how stupid they are for believing whatever it is they believe, almost always without being asked for a opinion.

Many of us are familiar with the type. They'll will bring up something like the Spanish Inquisition or Abuse Scandal usually within five minutes of being provoked with the word "hello" 

At least the Jehovah's Witnesses are polite !

Seriously though, same thing happened in my family years ago. JWs are considered a marginal christianity so it caused some worry and arguments 
within the family initially but in retrospect we should have been more accepting and less confrontational. 

After a few years they made their own decision and exited the JWs.


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## ClubMan (10 Jul 2008)

joejoe said:


> Blood products and the alternitives are hardly homeopathic potions, people outside of the JW need these options due to various medical reasons, that is why they have been developed.
> 
> Joejoe


That is a specific issue. I was responding to your seemingly more generalised comments earlier which would presumably cover the sorts of things that I mentioned:


joejoe said:


> No its not, your talking non-sense. People have diffrent beleives, if the health service in this country is not fit to deal with their choices, thats the problem of the HSE not the fault of the religon.


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## ClubMan (10 Jul 2008)

Remix said:


> Actually it could be worse. Imagine if he was marrying one of those annoying smarmy individuals who likes nothing better than to tell people how stupid they are for believing whatever it is they believe, almost always without being asked for a opinion.
> 
> Many of us are familiar with the type. They'll will bring up something like the Spanish Inquisition or Abuse Scandal usually within five minutes of being provoked with the word "hello"


I don't think that I've ever met one of these people. Are they common?


> At least the Jehovah's Witnesses are polite !


All of them?


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## Remix (10 Jul 2008)

ClubMan said:


> I don't think that I've ever met one of these people. Are they common?


 
I don't think so but probably more common that those with a disposition to interpret statements in their literal sense even in the presence of a  and followed by a "seriously though"


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## Jock04 (10 Jul 2008)

Remix said:


> At least the Jehovah's Witnesses are polite !


 


ClubMan said:


> All of them?


 

No - Michael Jackson was Bad


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## DavyJones (10 Jul 2008)

Purple said:


> Irish doctors don't take the hippocratic oath.



Not doubting you, but thats strange. Do they not take some kind of updated oath?


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## Purple (10 Jul 2008)

DavyJones said:


> Not doubting you, but thats strange. Do they not take some kind of updated oath?


Nope, bugger all.


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## redstar (10 Jul 2008)

Purple said:


> Nope, bugger all.



I hope thats not their oath


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## Caveat (10 Jul 2008)

redstar said:


> i Hope Thats Not Their Oath


 
Ha!


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## Purple (10 Jul 2008)

caveat said:


> ha! :d


 +1


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## joejoe (10 Jul 2008)

ClubMan said:


> That is a specific issue. I was responding to your seemingly more generalised comments earlier which would presumably cover the sorts of things that I mentioned:


 
Generalised, I was speaking specifily about JW choices of using alternitives to blood products, not potions and the like.

To OP, in general JW are a very nice bunch of people, very friendly open, honest & moral, your brother and his future wife will do fine together in their new life. As a group they live pretty simple lifes in a close comunity. Again I am not a JW but I do admire their commitment to their family, friends and community and morals.

Joejoe


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## Duke of Marmalade (10 Jul 2008)

And another thing, as a muslim I interest is forbidden the Quran and yet nowhere in this country can I get an interest free mortgage. Religious tolerance, my a*se.


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## joejoe (10 Jul 2008)

> Silly comment, I don't think any of the abusers in the church checked the faith of their victims.


 
Who said they did? The abusers where mainly the same religion as the asbused. The point I was trying to make was child abuse is / was more prevalant in the Catholic church than the JW church.

Joejoe


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## joejoe (10 Jul 2008)

Purple said:


> You are grasping a straws joejoe.
> If a fundamentalist Muslim does not want his 15 year old daughter operated on by a male doctor after a car crash do you think she should be let die?
> If you do not then your position visa vie blood products and Jehovah's Witness's is inconsistent.


 
Why? How does what you say compare with the situation I was dealing with? Just because you beleave them to be on a par with each other does not me they are? Discrimination is not the same thing as asking for an alteritive blood product. Not sure how you managed too link the two?

Joejoe


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## joejoe (10 Jul 2008)

Harchibald said:


> And another thing, as a muslim I interest is forbidden the Quran and yet nowhere in this country can I get an interest free mortgage. Religious tolerance, my a*se.


 
I am not sure what your talking about, the Quran (Koran) & an interest free mortgage, I dont know anybody that gets an interest free mortgage regardless of their religion.

Can you explain a little better please?

Joejoe


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## PM1234 (10 Jul 2008)

harchibald said:


> and Another Thing, As A Muslim I Interest Is Forbidden The Quran And Yet Nowhere In This Country Can I Get An Interest Free Mortgage. Religious Tolerance, My A*se.



 Call it an  'administration fee' instead


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## Duke of Marmalade (10 Jul 2008)

joejoe said:


> I dont know anybody that gets an interest free mortgage .
> 
> Can you explain a little better please?
> 
> Joejoe


 
That's my point. There are no mortgages in this country which conform with the Queeran. That's religious persecution just like that blood transfusion thing.


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## joejoe (11 Jul 2008)

Harchibald said:


> That's my point. There are no mortgages in this country which conform with the Queeran. That's religious persecution just like that blood transfusion thing.


 
Really, have you ever got an interest free loan of a felloe Muslim? Can you explain how the Queeran explains that loans should be free?

Joejoe


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## Thrifty (11 Jul 2008)

I can't believe how off the original question this topic has gone. From what i can see Winnie asked a simple question probably in the hope that somebody who has been in a similar situation could advise as to what they do at festival times etcs. When you don't know something about another culture or religion it's useful to know without making a fuss or sitting down with the person asking detailed questions about every possible senario in the future. Its great to have a little bit of guidance so you don't offend by acknowledging or not acknowledging something like a birthday etc. I do think the suggestion of talking to Jehova witnesses if they call a very good one but can't understand how the thread got diverted to child abuse and mortgages.


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## ClubMan (11 Jul 2008)

Original poster presumably has enough feedback and food for thought at this stage. Thread closed.


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