# How can I afford to separate from my spouse?



## GoItAlone

I’m fast coming to the conclusion that my marriage is ending. It’s almost a relief in a way. But I just can’t see a financial solution to separating from my other half.

As a couple, our financial situation is relatively comfortable, certainly a lot more comfortable that the many nightmare stories you read around here about debt and negative equity. But if we separate, it would be a very different story. Here’s our current situation:


Age: 49
Spouse’s/Partner's age: 48 

Annual gross income from employment or profession:  €73k public sector, so pension levy comes off gross
Annual gross income of spouse: €3k 
Monthly take-home pay : €3,464 (after additional years pension purchase)

Type of employment: Moved to public sector 10 years ago, niche specialist role, very few opportunities for promotion or additional income

In general are you:
(a) spending more than you earn, or
(b) saving?
Definitely spending more – have been running down all savings built up in the good years to the extent that credit card debt has built up (part of the reason for splitting up, as it happens)

Rough estimate of value of home: €450k – maybe more after recent price jumps – 4-bed semi-D in a nice part of south Dublin

Amount outstanding on your mortgage: €5k
What interest rate are you paying? Tracker 

Other borrowings – car loans/personal loans etc : €8k in credit card debt from last couple of years converted to personal loan, paying €260 per month to clear over 3 years

Do you pay off your full credit card balance each month? No, 
If not, what is the balance on your credit card? about €3k (on top of €8k mentioned above)

Savings and investments: €3k left in credit union

Do you have a pension scheme? Yes, about €100k in two DC schemes from previous private sector employment

Do you own any investment or other property?  No

Ages of children: Two boys, 14 and 10, older lad has done 1 year in private secondary school 

Life insurance: Mortgage protection policy still in place, but due to finish soon with mortgage

What specific question do you have or what issues are of concern to you?

How on earth could we afford to run two houses if we split? I would imagine that the kids will end up staying with herself in the family home, as that seems to be the way things go in Ireland. I really couldn’t go back to housesharing at my age, and I’d need to have room for the kids to stay. I’ll almost certainly inherit the cats too. So I’d need a 2-bed or more likely 3-bed house or apartment. I know pets can be a dealbreaker in many apartments, so a house seems the more likely option. If I look at 3-bed houses in the current area, even the very much less salubrious parts of the area, they are at about €300k. I’ve just no idea how I could fund this, or fund equivalent rent, while continuing to support ex-wife and family to stay in the family home.

I've been a good provider to my family. I was earning €100k in the private sector before I switched to public, so we had lots of good times, with nice car and nice holidays. I'm really not that bothered about material stuff, but herself doesn't share that particular world view - another reason why we're probably not going to stay together.

Maybe I could draw down my €100k approx pension pot early, once I pass 50, and get a lump sum that would cover a house deposit, but I still wouldn’t get near a 20% deposit, which I understand is what is required these days. I could cancel the purchase of additional pension years, though it is great financial value, given that it is based on the old (pre-2006) pricing. As a last resort, I might have to think about cancelling the private school, though it would be particularly hard on the oldest lad who has already done a year there. The rough plan was the that savings on outgoings from clearing the mortgage would allow us to cover the school fees and cover the personal loans too.

I do see other separated folks out and about who seem to be able to find workable solutions without ending up living on the breadline, so I’m wondering if there is  some magic solution out there, beyond the lotto tickets. 
All suggestions welcome.


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## niceoneted

You need to get rid of the credit card ASAP.
What about selling the family home. Use the proceeds to buy a smaller 3 bed for wife and kids 250 - 300k and then use the remainder for yourself to get similar or a 2 bed maybe with a small mortgage. 
Your wife's earnings are minimal. Has she ever worked or could she look for work? She might be entitled to some welfare payments after you left.  You could always ask her to leave either. 
Have you tried counselling?? 
I wish you well in what ever you decide.  It's not easy.


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## Thirsty

The simple fact is that neither of you can expect to maintain the same standard of living after you separate.  

Whilst leaving the children & primary carer in the family home, particularly where there is a mortgage & little in the way of equity, was the preferred settlement in the past, in your case that may not be the preferred option.

Given the age of your children, its likely your wife would be expected to earn some income.

You should also be aware that your wife will be entitled to claim a share of your pension.

An alternative, though not an easy one, is that that you agree to live separate lives, whilst at the same address, with an agreement that you will, for example, sell the house in 8 years time when your youngest has finished secondary school.


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## Steven Barrett

The family home is the only real asset that you have. Selling it is probably the only method that you have of getting your own home. Divorce is extremely expensive, even if you break up, it will be 4 years before you can divorce and settle everything. 

If you do go down the road of separation and you and your wife aren't killing each other, try collaborative law. The lawyers working in that area focus on doing what is best for the children especially, recognise that there is a finite amount of money that has to cover two separate lives. It stays out of the courts to reduce costs. Both parties have to agree to it though.

I hope it works out for you and you can settle your differences. 

Steven
www.bluewaterfp.ie


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## GoItAlone

Thanks for the feedback and the good wishes. 

I suppose I was assuming that the 'rule' was that the missus gets to stay in the family home with the kids until they finish education. To be blunt, the chances of getting her to agree to leave are slim, so we're probably talking about a mediated agreement, or more likely a court ruling. The option of selling up to fund two smaller properties would be reasonable to me, though possibly a bit of a procedural nightmare. Having to agree on things like a selling price or what replacement properties would be bought could be extremely difficult, based on the current atmosphere.

Thirsty, you are suggesting that the Courts don't generally insist on leaving the missus in the house these days? I'm very interested in hearing more about your experiences in that area. It is also interesting to hear your comment that she would be expected to earn an income. This doesn't seem unreasonable to me, given that the kids are of secondary school age now.

The option of living seperate lives in the same house seems very unlikely at present. In fact, the reverse option of staying married while living in different houses seems more feasible, given that my regular heinous sins of sitting on the couch, or using the laptop or farting seem to be the main points of conflict, along with money of course.

We haven't tried counselling, as it happens. I'm not sure that there is enough underlying goodwill left to actually stay together to make this worth while.


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## buzybee

I think if you sit your spouse down and explain about funding 2 smaller properties, about  her having to claim welfare or work, she will decide that she can live with you sitting on couch etc.  I can't believe she complains about money and has not tried to work. I am 42. have 2 children of 3 and 5 and my husband thinks I am lazy cos I do 4.5 days a week instead of 5. If I was in your position I would maintain separate lives in the family home, sell when kids finish secondary. This giv es you time to save money for yourself, your wife time to train/work and get used to having less.


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## Guns N Roses

GoItAlone said:


> We haven't tried counselling, as it happens. I'm not sure that there is enough underlying goodwill left to actually stay together to make this worth while.



I would recommend that you should try counselling before you decide to throw in the towel on your marriage.


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## 110quests

Hi, Is there any goodwill or love left ? If there is, mediation could work wonders for you both as the many issues which have led to this point would be teased out and new insights gained into how you both see things. I have seen it work.

Your wife earns 3k pa. Is the source of this income expandable.? More hours, more production or whatever.

Cut up the credit card. Everyone will have to manage without it.

Selling your home seems like the best option with the possibility of buying two as SBarrett said. Again mediation would help deal with this.

Personally I don't think you should interfere with your pension arrangements. You will need all the pension you can obtain later on, even more so if your marriage doesn't work out.

Financially,you may have to look at the Private school again if a new situation develops. It will possibly upset your son, for a while, but separation will upset him which ever school he is attending. 

You remark that other couples seem to manage breakups. The ones that work best are where there is proper communication, compromise, openness and respect.

Think about mediation, you wont be sorry. If your wife doesn't co-operate then try counselling yourself. 

I wish you both good luck.


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## Branz

Sad to read this.
Two separate houses just wont work here at this stage without a serious drop in lifestyle and  one off costs.


What I see happening in these one income cases is 
Rule 1 is no divorce till the kids are 18. It would ruin you financially.
As SB says u have 4 years to wait anyway so thats one over the line.
Remember that the big D does not stop her revisiting the well as some point.
If you want a reality check on what your exposure might be in a big D I am sure you can find some lawyer that for a small fee will lay it out for you.
Rule 2 protect your pension at all costs, does it contain a spouse's pension on your passing?.
Rule 3 is separate bank accounts and transfer a housekeeping allowance, paying for verifiable stuff like school fees directly from your account.
Rule 4 explain the reality of a non contributory pension to her ands the value of getting out there.

Separate lives under one roof can be made work, maybe modify the house a bit.

By all means try mediation etc but plan for otherwise.

Good luck.

ps the cats wont easily settle in a new house, especially if the doors get left open


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## RichInSpirit

Put in a decent partition in your current house and continue to live under the one roof but at different ends of it.


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## Steven Barrett

With regards to the OP's pension, in the case of divorce, I don't think there is much he can do to protect it. In most cases of marital breakup, the way of protecting the pension is to stop making contributions. I am not aware of any opt out of the public service schemes. 

What does happen is a Pension Adjustment Order is given. As part of the divorce settlement, the wife will be given a percentage of the benefits accrued over a fixed period of time, usually the time of the marriage. Any pension benefits accrued before or after that fixed period of time is 100% the OP's

Even where it is agreed that she gets no pension entitlements, she is actually given a trivial amount of 0.0001% of 1 day.


Steven
www.bluewaterfp.ie


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## Purple

GoitAlone, I am in a very similar situation and it’s not easy. Your lifestyle will suffer and all that but my advice is if you search your heart and you think your relationship with your wife is worth saving then do everything you can to fix it. If, on the other hand, you are sure that there is no hope and you are in a loveless and destructive relationship then end it as soon as you can. 
You are entitled to provide a home for your children were they are comfortable and can spend time with you. The courts will probably agree with that view.
Rents are extremely expensive in South Dublin at the moment but that’s probably the best short term option. A small house is probably cheaper than an apartment of the same size.
There’s no easy answers and if you separate you will have  a few hard years ahead of you but do what’s right for you. Your children will thank you in the long term.


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## Bronte

GoItAlone said:


> I suppose I was assuming that the 'rule' was that the missus gets to stay in the family home with the kids until they finish education. To be blunt, the chances of getting her to agree to leave are slim, so we're probably talking about a mediated agreement,


 
Surely the world has moved on from the tradition of the woman staying in the main home. It used often to be the case that the man ended up in a bedsit but I don't consider that fair.

Before you go down the separation route, try reconciliation and mediation. It's always worth a go. Rediscover what you loved about each other.

If that doesn't work, then both you and she should if at all possible try and negotiate a solution between you. The family house has to be on the table as it's your main asset.  As other posters have mentined your wife should be looking for work particularly as you have two teenage children.  Gone are the days of courts considering a woman's role to be that of stay at home mother.  

The worst case scenario is for you both to go to war in a legal battle.


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## Purple

Bronte said:


> Surely the world has moved on from the tradition of the woman staying in the main home.  It used often to be the case that the man ended up in a bedsit but I don't consider that fair.


Family law is still very much on the woman's side. It really doesn't matter what the details are or who is the best carer, or even who has done the caring in the past. The default position is that the woman gets the lions share (no matter what the incomes of the individuals are) unless the man can somehow convince the court that it should be otherwise.


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## Bronte

Purple said:


> Family law is still very much on the woman's side. .


 
I haven't read cases in the last few years, but I do understand it can be an uphill battle for fairness for men.  Perhaps the OP should go down to the High Court and see what is actually going on there, but I think those cases are still in camera, with some reporting restrictions lifted recently - there are some cases in the Irish Times.  And probably also on the website courts.ie.  

He should also realise that there is not way there is not going to be a massive financial impact to both his and his wifes lifestyles as there is not enough money to finance two separate households at the current level.


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## GoItAlone

Thanks for all the feedback. I'm not sure whether I'm relieved or disappointed to learn that there is no 'magic bullet' solution out there that I'm missing. 

Purple – thanks for sharing so openly, that takes guts. Your comments are appreciated and noted.

SBarrett – thanks for the clarifications re pensions. Like most pensions issues, it’s not on top of the priority list at the moment, though I know I should probably give it more time. Do you know if early drawdown of my private sector pension is likely to be an option (though I know you won’t be familiar with the rules of that particular scheme).

RichInSpirit – Partition? Really – does this work? Not sure how it work with one kitchen, and it would probably defeat the purpose of living with the kids, if they are partitioned away elsewhere. 

Ircoha – Thanks for the info. The cats are getting quite old, so probably don’t have too many years left themselves. They were outdoor, and still go outdoor a bit, though much less than in their younger years. I’m guessing that it won’t be a huge sacrifice for them to switch to indoor only.
The ‘separate lives under one roof’ seems like an unattainable dream to me. In fact, the total opposite is more likely – we could probably stay married and have a reasonably positive relationship if we weren’t under one roof. It’s the little things arising from living together that are killing us.

110quests – Thanks for the info. Wife has gone from €0 pa to €3k pa in the last year, so that’s a start. I wrote the job application letter for her. Opportunities to expand income in her current role are limited. Suggestions for doing anything else like training or other work are met with “Why are you always pressurising me and telling me what to do?” tears and drama. It’s difficult to move it forward. 

GnR – Thanks – yes, we probably should try counselling properly.

Buzybee – yes, you would think that she’d be more motivated about bringing in some income. Or even that she might lean the other direction, and adjust her expectations to the reduced income. But no, it’s a case of ‘champagne lifestyle, lemonade wages’ expectations. OK, so that’s a slight exaggeration by me, but it’s really not a huge exaggeration. When the kids were younger, it was a huge contribution to the partnership to have her at home, and this gave a whole lot of flexibility and very few childcare costs. But I think she has got very used to the level of total self-control that this gave her for so long, and is strongly resisting any alternative approach. Ironically, the most likely outcome of her taking this position is what she would describe as her worst nightmare – living in reduced circumstances on a very fixed income budget.

All further suggestions and comments are welcome.


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## G7979

Its a little unfair to expect someone who sacrificed a career to raise children for 15+ years to suddenly return to the workforce in a role that would provide as though there was no gap. 

I think you may underestimate the anxiety and reality of the situation for her. Its not easy to be 40+ with no experience or measurable skills in the workplace, going up against others who have maintained a place in the workplace for the same roles, or younger people starting out. She may not have the confidence or the self belief to really make a go of it. Any real chance of advancement or a career may not be available to her, and she may not have the confidence in a new environment either. Its all very well to say simply she should get a job and start earning, but to be blunt - its not that simple.

You state it was a great contribution to the partnership to have her at home raising the family for all those years, that sacrifice has long reaching consequences well beyond the child rearing years, and you need to remember you contributed to that decision, you need to keep recognising it. It was a choice that presumably you both made.

THAT SAID - there is no excuse for living beyond the means of the family and putting her head in the sand.

Cut up the cards and close the credit accounts, refuse to sign any more application forms once they are gone she cant use them anymore. You are going to have to force the issue of a budget and household spending, unpleasant though it may be, getting into debt is not an option, or at least it shouldn't be.

I have no real advice on the separation, my views are coming from being a shoulder to cry on for a friend who is terrified her husband will leave her (she suspects he is having an affair) and she will be left with nothing after giving up her career to be the main carer at home, raising their children, she feels betrayed that now those years are done the sacrifices she made (she left a job she loved with some reluctance) are going to be swept under the carpet, like it never happened. She cannot simply pick up where she left off, she would need to retrain and would never have a hope of getting to the level she once aimed for due to her age, my friend is 47.

Counselling may help you get to the bottom of the issues with money and the work related situation, if there is tension and arguments, she may not feel she can confide in you her fears about returning to the workplace and is hiding behind an entitled "Lady who Lunches" attitude


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## Purple

G7979 said:


> I have no real advice on the separation, my views are coming from being a shoulder to cry on for a friend who is terrified her husband will leave her (she suspects he is having an affair) and she will be left with nothing after giving up her career to be the main carer at home, raising their children, she feels betrayed that now those years are done the sacrifices she made (she left a job she loved with some reluctance) are going to be swept under the carpet, like it never happened. She cannot simply pick up where she left off, she would need to retrain and would never have a hope of getting to the level she once aimed for due to her age, my friend is 47.
> 
> Counselling may help you get to the bottom of the issues with money and the work related situation, if there is tension and arguments, she may not feel she can confide in you her fears about returning to the workplace and is hiding behind an entitled "Lady who Lunches" attitude



All of that will be taken into account by the judge/courts in a separation. The idea that a man could walk out on his wife and kids and leave them with nothing while he keeps his large wage is fantasy and hasn’t been the case since the mid 1970’s (and rightly so, thanks CJH).
The reality is that marriages breakdown, and whatever the cause it is usually the man that is blamed and it is usually the man that loses his home and ends up worst off of the two. 
Circumstances change and people have to change and adapt. In an ideal world marriages would not break down but they do and both parties should do what is in the best interests of the children (where there are children) and act like grown-ups. Unfortunately that seldom happens.
The idea that any man or woman should be forced to stay in an unhappy or abusive relationship is, thankfully, a thing of the past. If your friend thinks her husband is having an affair she should talk to him about it. She should also take a hard look at their relationship and ask herself if there's one there at all. Affairs don't end relationships, they are usually a symptom of a terminal decline of the relationship and happen when there is no companionship, tenderness or love left. (and no, neither by Ex or I had one).


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## G7979

Purple I agree with you 100% - but peoples fears and thoughts that rule their behaviours is not always logical or rational, just trying to offer a different perspective on the possible reasons for her sticking her head in the sand. 

No one should stay in a relationship if it makes them miserable, but understanding where the other is coming from might help to either facilitate a reconciliation or smooth the way for an easier end to the relationship if such a thing is even possible.


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## pricilla

Your post has really played on my mind over the last week. I think you should call a meeting with your wife. Sit down and spell it out to her using bullet points that you can't continue like this and you want to try counselling for the next six months to see if ye can sort it out. Tell her if it comes to a separation that you will be selling the house, and breaking up the family so you are booking in with a counsellor and you want her to come.

Your marriage deserves a chance, you have two lovely boys and from your post you seem to be more concerned about the cats and not considering that you are walking out leaving those two lads with a woman that is unbearable to live with.

From what you have posted, it sounds like your wife is going through some sort of crisis, she is refusing to cut back her spending, gets emotional when you mention her working, cries when you try to talk to he and harasses you for sitting on the couch. She is making your life a misery, and maybe there is something really wrong and she needs some support and not for you to leave her now. Try the counselling, really give it a go. I know things are hard but I am an optimist and it sounds totally fixable, your wife needs help through her problems but she also needs it spelt out to her that nobody can continue living like this. You are not saying anything mean, just stating facts. I have a feeling she will take it very seriously if she thinks you might have to sell your home.

Anyway, sorry for the long post and feel free to totally ignore what I have said but I just wanted to wish you all the very best. I really don't know how you have put up with her this long, she sounds like she is really spoilt and difficult to live with. But you did marry her, so talk to her, you owe it to your lovely boys.  the truth will set you free as they say.


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## phileasfogg

I hope it is all going ok for you at the moment.  Financially, selling your home and buying 2 smaller homes is the way to go,  BUT you will need to think about how your boys will respond to this.  Maybe they would be fine, but bear in mind, their parents spitting up and having to move home all at the same time might be very upsetting. It would be better for them to be able to stay in their home for as long as it is possible I think. There is no easy solution, but best of luck with everything.


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