# E-voting machines to be scrapped



## Shawady (23 Apr 2009)

Well there's 700k storage fees saved.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0423/evoting.html


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## Towger (23 Apr 2009)

> Environment Minister John Gormley said a task force is being set up to oversee the disposal of the voting and counting equipment and the end of storage arrangements


.

Why does it need a task force to chuck them in the electrical skip in the nearest local Bring Centre? Chances are we entered long term leases and will still have to pay for empty warehouses.


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## Howitzer (23 Apr 2009)

Towger said:


> .
> 
> Why does it need a task force to chuck them in the electrical skip in the nearest local Bring Centre? Chances are we entered long term leases and will still have to pay for empty warehouses.


There was a story in last Sunday Times which gave the impression that, Monaghan Council anyway, were looking at the legality of the storage contract. Probably with an eye on breaking the leases.

The long and short of the story was that the Returning Officer was in charge of allocating the contract. She gave to her nephew who was storing them in a building built (zoned?) for agricultural uses. The contract was for 25 years even though the machines had a 20 year lifespan.

I suspect every Council in Ireland has the inside track on the backhanders here and that the rental contracts can be easily broken.


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## Chocks away (23 Apr 2009)

Did these machines not do what they were supposed to? Were they wrongly ordered? If the former, the makers should be sued, if the latter, whoever was responsible for their arrival should be carpeted. But throwing good money after bad (setting up a new quango) is not the way to go.


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## Henny Penny (23 Apr 2009)

these machines are now almost part of irish folklore ... the government should ebay them ... I'm sure pubs around the country would love to have one as a talking point!


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## Complainer (23 Apr 2009)

Henny Penny said:


> I'm sure pubs around the country would love to have one as a talking point!



This is the best idea I've heard. Maybe the Oirish pubs round the world would buy one each?

This really was a scandalous waste, particularly as all of the problems with the machines where publicly highlighted before the contracts were signed.


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## mathepac (24 Apr 2009)

Chocks away said:


> Did these machines not do what they were supposed to? ...


 They actually worked quite well, but had security issues, leaving them prone to hackers.

They were based on Motorolla 680x0 processors which were state of the art 15 / 20 years ago and used in old Apple Macs in the late 1980's and early 90's. (!) 


Chocks away said:


> ... whoever was responsible for their arrival should be carpeted...


Shoulda coulda woulda but it wont happen. 


Chocks away said:


> ... But throwing good money after bad (setting up a new quango) is not the way to go.


Of course its not but thats what'll happen.


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## micmclo (24 Apr 2009)

Maybe we can sell them to a corrupt country that's looking to rig an election 

Better to get something then throw them in a skip


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## Slash (24 Apr 2009)

Apparently, the Zimbabwe government are interested in buying the e-voting machines. With a minor amendment to the software, every button can be made to record a vote for Robert Mugabe.


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## Towger (24 Apr 2009)

mathepac said:


> They were based on Motorolla 680x0 processors which were state of the art 15 / 20 years ago and used in old Apple Macs in the late 1980's and early 90's. (!)



The 68040 Processor, also used in the better Commodore Amigas. But the real killer was the fact that the counting software, apart from having bugs was written in Microsoft Access!!!


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## Howitzer (24 Apr 2009)

Towger said:


> The 68040 Processor, also used in the better Commodore Amigas. But the real killer was the fact that the counting software, apart from having bugs was written in Microsoft Access!!!


Sounds like WE were the corrupt country looking to rig an election who bought them off someone else who made the initial mistake in purchasing them. How old were these when they fell into our hands?


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## Complainer (24 Apr 2009)

Towger said:


> But the real killer was the fact that the counting software, apart from having bugs was written in Microsoft Access!!!


 Far be it from me to defend this pile of poo, but this isn't quite true. While the counting application did use an MS Access database, the application was written in some object-oriented front-end language. And it did have lots of bugs. And no version control. And no use of formal methods.


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## Towger (24 Apr 2009)

Complainer said:


> Far be it from me to defend this pile of poo, but this isn't quite true. While the counting application did use an MS Access database, the application was written in some object-oriented front-end language. And it did have lots of bugs. And no version control. And no use of formal methods.



It was always stated that it uses MS Access, which is the front end graphical tool/design environment. Not JET which is the database engine used by Access.


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## Welfarite (24 Apr 2009)

Shawady said:


> Well there's 700k storage fees saved.
> 
> http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0423/evoting.html


 

Apparently not as much saved per annum as that. According to RTE: 
"The cost of storing the electronic voting machinery was €489,000 in 2007, compared to €706,000 in 2006."


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## Firefly (24 Apr 2009)

Can you _imagine_ making a boo-boo of that order in the private sector


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## liaconn (24 Apr 2009)

You mean like the banks we've all had to bail out recently?


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## Chocks away (24 Apr 2009)

mathepac, thanks for explaining in #7. The mind boggles at such a major gaffe


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## Mel (24 Apr 2009)

Complainer said:


> Far be it from me to defend this pile of poo, but this isn't quite true. While the counting application did use an MS Access database, the application was written in some object-oriented front-end language. And it did have lots of bugs. *And no version control. And no use of formal methods.*


 
Give me strength...


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## Towger (24 Apr 2009)

> And it did have lots of bugs. *And no version control. And no use of formal methods.*





Mel said:


> Give me strength...



Is 'Code and Fix' not a Formal Method...


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## Mel (24 Apr 2009)

No, a design methodology is a formal method: requirements, functions, designs, code, test, fix. Code and Fix only is setting yourself up to fail.
It's lesson 101 in software or any project world I would imagine. 
Version control is best practice, but not even using a methodology is cowboy behaviour.
But the developer isn't entirely to blame for that - it's up to the client to ensure that good practices are adhered to...


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## z104 (24 Apr 2009)

I'd buy one if they were going cheap


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## tiger (24 Apr 2009)

Welfarite said:


> Apparently not as much saved per annum as that. According to RTE:
> "The cost of storing the electronic voting machinery was €489,000 in 2007, compared to €706,000 in 2006."


That still seems like alot for storage.
According to the [broken link removed] "more than 700" machines were ordered. looking at the picture here 10-20,000 sq ft should be enough to store the entire lot. Where were they keeping them, grafton st.???


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## Towger (24 Apr 2009)

Bidding has started at €1 : [broken link removed]

Here is the text, before it gets removed.


> Hello again, this is Brian Lenihan, Minister for Finance for the Irish government!
> 
> A few years ago, we bought some e-voting machines, with a view to doing away with our annoyingly transparent system of voting here in Ireland. Recently we commissioned a special team of highly specialised and even more highly paid consultants and dispatched them to Zimbabwe, with a view to studying the system of voting that has been developed by Robert Mugabe and on this basis, advising us how to best elect a government every 4-5 years.
> 
> ...


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## elefantfresh (24 Apr 2009)

Thats class!!!


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## Complainer (24 Apr 2009)

Towger said:


> It was always stated that it uses MS Access, which is the front end graphical tool/design environment. Not JET which is the database engine used by Access.


Stated by who?  

See 



> Ø Borland Delphi 5. A widely used compiler for creating Microsoft Windows applications. This compiler uses Object Pascal as its programming language. The compiler delivers stand alone executable applications for speed and simplicity of installation.
> 
> Ø Opus DirectAccess provides Delphi programs with a comprehensive, efficient interface to Microsoft Access databases. It replaces Delphi's normal database interface (BDE) with a much leaner intermediate layer that talks directly to the native Access database engine (DAO).
> 
> ...


​​


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## Lex Foutish (24 Apr 2009)

I heard on the radio today that the machines have a life span of about 20 years and that some of the storage contracts signed were for 25 years! 

Good or what??!!


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## Smashbox (24 Apr 2009)

Still up on ebay, that Biffo does be awful busy!


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## Lex Foutish (24 Apr 2009)

Towger said:


> Bidding has started at €1 : [broken link removed]
> 
> Here is the text, before it gets removed.


 
Brilliant, Towger!!! Well spotted!!!!!


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## mathepac (24 Apr 2009)

Mel said:


> ... methodology is a formal method: ...


Ahh, a sign of the times perhaps.  AFAIK, methodology is a study / analysis of methods / practices used in a discipline.


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## Towger (25 Apr 2009)

Complainer said:


> Stated by who?
> 
> See


 
The document you just quoted! It seems to confuse MS Access which is a database's GUI front end, DAO (Data Access Objects) which along with RDO, ODBC and various ADOs were/are MS flavour of the day database interface layers.


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## Smashbox (25 Apr 2009)

I was outbid


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## Complainer (25 Apr 2009)

Towger said:


> The document you just quoted! It seems to confuse MS Access which is a database's GUI front end, DAO (Data Access Objects) which along with RDO, ODBC and various ADOs were/are MS flavour of the day database interface layers.


The only thing that is confusing is your apparent reluctance to be big enough to admit that you were wrong. You stated yesterdaythat "real killer was the fact that the counting software, apart from having bugs was written in Microsoft Access". As I told you yesterday, and as is confirmed by the DoEHLG document, it wasn't written in Access. It was written in Object Pascal, and uses various add-in utilities to access the Access database.

You can try to confuse and obfuscate by introducing a pile of TLAs (three letter abbreviations), but it isn't going to work. The count software wasn't written in MS Access.


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## Towger (25 Apr 2009)

Complainer said:


> The only thing that is confusing is your apparent reluctance to be big enough to admit that you were wrong. You stated yesterdaythat "real killer was the fact that the counting software, apart from having bugs was written in Microsoft Access". As I told you yesterday, and as is confirmed by the DoEHLG document, it wasn't written in Access. It was written in Object Pascal, and uses various add-in utilities to access the Access database.
> 
> You can try to confuse and obfuscate by introducing a pile of TLAs (three letter abbreviations), but it isn't going to work. The count software wasn't written in MS Access.



The fact it used MS Access was what stood out in my memory. It is stated in the report MS Accress was used, but reading it in more detail seems to imply it did not use MS Accress, but rather a Delphi front end accessing the JET Database Engine through an DAO interface.

In any event the killer was that fact that they specified machines without printers and it was not ecomic to retrofit them.


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## Complainer (25 Apr 2009)

Towger said:


> In any event the killer was that fact that they specified machines without printers and it was not ecomic to retrofit them.


I'd go further than that, to be honest. THe absence of printers was a symptom rather than a cause.

The real killer was the absence of any business case. There was understanding of what benefit(s) the new system was supposed to achieve. It was clear case of a solution looking for a problem, computerisation for its own sake.


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## room305 (26 Apr 2009)

Complainer said:


> I'd go further than that, to be honest. THe absence of printers was a symptom rather than a cause.
> 
> The real killer was the absence of any business case. There was understanding of what benefit(s) the new system was supposed to achieve. It was clear case of a solution looking for a problem, computerisation for its own sake.



For sure. When asked many moons ago for just such a business case Martin Cullen stated that the e-voting machines would be an efficient cost, saving measure. Asked to put a figure on that saving he estimated a saving of about €1M a year. I'm not sure if that included the additional cost of storage of the devices but let's be generous and say it does. 

So the government was looking at fifty years before they broke even on the venture, from machines that were slated to last no more than twenty years.

Amazingly, in the catalogue of stupid, wasteful government decisions this isn't the worst!


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## Complainer (26 Apr 2009)

room305 said:


> For sure. When asked many moons ago for just such a business case Martin Cullen stated that the e-voting machines would be an efficient cost, saving measure. Asked to put a figure on that saving he estimated a saving of about €1M a year. I'm not sure if that included the additional cost of storage of the devices but let's be generous and say it does.
> 
> So the government was looking at fifty years before they broke even on the venture, from machines that were slated to last no more than twenty years.


I don't believe there was any basis for his claim that they would save €1m per annum.


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## Mel (27 Apr 2009)

mathepac said:


> Ahh, a sign of the times perhaps. AFAIK, methodology is a study / analysis of methods / practices used in a discipline.


 
Ah now!! it's also "a particular procedure or set of procedures" as in a software develpment procedure perhaps?


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## room305 (27 Apr 2009)

Complainer said:


> I don't believe there was any basis for his claim that they would save €1m per annum.



It certainly had the air of a figure plucked from the air in the interview if I recall correctly. Which makes it worse, as he clearly saw nothing fundamentally wrong with spending €50M in order to achieve a €1M a year saving for twenty years.


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## Complainer (27 Apr 2009)

He conveniently forgot to add in the extra cost of the dedicated operator that each of the 7,000 machines required on polling day - 7,000 extra man-days for each election.


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## cork (28 Apr 2009)

Why you can bank online but not vote is beyond me.

Manually counting votes is the stuff of dark ages.
With PPS/Public Services Broker/ etc - eletronic voting should happen again.


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## Complainer (28 Apr 2009)

cork said:


> Why you can bank online but not vote is beyond me.


One simple reason - to protect the secrecy of the ballot.


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## DerKaiser (28 Apr 2009)

Towger said:


> The fact it used MS Access was what stood out in my memory. It is stated in the report MS Accress was used, but reading it in more detail seems to imply it did not use MS Accress, but rather a Delphi front end accessing the JET Database Engine through an DAO interface.
> 
> In any event the killer was that fact that they specified machines without printers and it was not ecomic to retrofit them.


 
Yeah. Maybe I had a very simplified vision of how these things should work but I always thought that there should be a print out given to the voter to check and place this in a ballot box. The ballot box could be used alongside the electronic result for a while until people trusted the system


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## Complainer (29 Apr 2009)

cork said:


> Why you can bank online but not vote is beyond me.
> 
> Manually counting votes is the stuff of dark ages.
> With PPS/Public Services Broker/ etc - eletronic voting should happen again.





Complainer said:


> One simple reason - to protect the secrecy of the ballot.



Just to expand on this now that I have a little bit more time.

A banking transaction is intrinsically linked to a person. The whole system revolves around transactions linked to an account or person. The audit trails will be based around individual accounts.

A voting environment is completely different. In order to protect the secrecy of the ballot, it is essential that the vote when cast cannot be linked to the voter in any way. The vote must be anonymous.

There is also the contradictory requirement for traceability. It must be possible to show in an open and transparent manner that the vote count has been fair and accurate.

Also, any online voting facility would open up options for duress voting (where an individual is forced under threat to vote in a certain way) or vote selling. The simple booth in the polling station offers complete protection by ensuring that only one person is allowed in the booth when voting is happening.

But the real question isn't 'can we do eVoting' - the real question is 'should we do eVoting' - what benefits will arise?


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## mathepac (29 Apr 2009)

Mel said:


> Ah now!! it's also "a particular procedure or set of procedures" as in a software develpment procedure perhaps?


If you say so but linguistically its an anachronism with a questionble upside for market valuations of brassicas.


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## mathepac (29 Apr 2009)

Complainer said:


> ... The simple booth in the polling station offers complete protection by ensuring that only one person is allowed in the booth when voting is happening...


What neither system addressed is the v-Voter beloved of Fianna Fail. The Virtual Voter or v-Voter, who died or moved to a different constituency, continued to vote "early and often" on behalf of the Soldiers of High-Density Housing and acted as a meeter-and-greeter in the Snake Oil Tent and othe rubber chicken venues.


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## Complainer (1 May 2009)

mathepac said:


> What neither system addressed is the v-Voter beloved of Fianna Fail. The Virtual Voter or v-Voter, who died or moved to a different constituency, continued to vote "early and often" on behalf of the Soldiers of High-Density Housing and acted as a meeter-and-greeter in the Snake Oil Tent and othe rubber chicken venues.


Indeed, though in fairness, FF aren't the only ones to have benefited from these. I heard Joe McCarthy (who spend in the order of €4k of his own money on FOI requests on the dodgy eVoting system) making the point that if they spent half as much money on sorting the register as they did on the machines, we would be far better off.


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## room305 (2 May 2009)

Complainer said:


> Indeed, though in fairness, FF aren't the only ones to have benefited from these. I heard Joe McCarthy (who spend in the order of €4k of his own money on FOI requests on the dodgy eVoting system) making the point that *if they spent half as much money on sorting the register as they did on the machines, we would be far better off.*



Excellent and rarely raised point. That we don't have a centralised register is a joke. I'm registered to vote in three different constituencies despite writing to innumerable offices in an attempt to get the matter rectified.


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## Mel (2 May 2009)

mathepac said:


> If you say so but linguistically its an anachronism with a questionble upside for market valuations of brassicas.


 
http://www.answers.com/topic/methodology 

We can agree to disagree, but languages aren't static (adj., Having no motion; being at rest; quiescent; Fixed; stationary.) 
Pretentious management/ marketing lingo it may be, but it's how the word often tends to be used and understood and it's the comprehension of the word by the listener that is key in linguistics.


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## michaelm (7 May 2009)

Niallers said:


> I'd buy one if they were going cheap


I'd guess you'd pick one up for half nothing, going on previous fire sales . . when they splurged on e-voting machines they sold off the 1000's of wooden ballot boxes at local auctions, many lots for €1 per box - to be used as plant pots and firewood . . and didn't Willie O'Dea swap a job lot of helicopters for some magic beans?

Anyway announcing that they are to be scrapped and actually implementing it are two different things.  Gormley, despite his many protestations, has delivered very little.


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