# Bullying in the workplace



## Acorn22 (23 Sep 2021)

Hi,

My partner is in the throws of a PIP.  As far as I can make our they are being currently managed out of their position.  The manager over my partner is changing the content of anything my partner writes or creates such as reports and claims they are errors.  He (the manager) is claiming 'wrong spacing' on a report and calling it an grammar/spelling error however the manager himself is doing this in his work.   Other areas that they are nit picking at her is for example if my partner writes 'it's a rainy day' her manager will put down 'it's a wet day' and is claiming this is an error.  As a result her work is destroyed in so called 'errors'.  If she includes attachments her manager says 'that should not be included'.  When she does not include it in next piece of work the manager is  claiming 'why did you not include x attachment'. When my partner refers to previous times when this was called an error the manager says 'all reports are different and require different inclusions etc.'

I am generally uneducated in the area of my partner's line of work however, I know when I see a spelling and grammar error and there are none there.  My partner's work (spelling and grammar) is in line with her colleagues including the manager himself, however, he is claiming otherwise.  Now if there are false and exaggerated  claims being made in this area of her work it is clear its happening in all the other areas her manager is onto her about.

It is easy to change a person wording and call it an error?  The issue here is what should we do?  She has consulted with a employment law solicitor who has advised her to get out fast and change jobs.  The solicitor also told us that it is really easy to get someone fired and really hard to prove.   The union have asked her to submit a grievance but has advised that the ultimate outcome to a grievance will be the manager may be sent on bullying/staff management course and have asked my partner to consider her options carefully as they may end up working with the manager at the end of the grievance claim.  We are not in a position for my partner to quit or accept a payout right now.  She is applying for jobs etc but its a waiting game.  What should we do next?


----------



## Peanuts20 (23 Sep 2021)

The norm in any organisation where a PIP is in place would be for an appeal to be allowable on the initial review done in the first place. So her starting point should be to review the current process for reviews that are in place and if an appeal is allowable, to ask for one. 

the PIP itself should be in writing, should set out the areas for improvement, should have a policy and process that sit behind it and those should be followed. Are they?

Is the PIP justififed? Most firms have a standard method and process for writing reports and certain phrases and approaches that are followed. Is she adhering to the company standard. There is always the possibility that when you step back from your admirable personal loyalty, that she is actually rubbish at her job. 

What isn't clear from here is why her manager is picking on her and if there is another underlying reason here.


----------



## arbitron (23 Sep 2021)

What is a PIP? I thought you meant personal insolvency practitioner but that doesn't fit. Productivity improvement plan?


----------



## Thirsty (23 Sep 2021)

Take the Solicitor's advice and get out.

No amount of money will compensate for the distress you will go through if you try and stick it out.


----------



## Acorn22 (23 Sep 2021)

Peanuts20 said:


> The norm in any organisation where a PIP is in place would be for an appeal to be allowable on the initial review done in the first place. So her starting point should be to review the current process for reviews that are in place and if an appeal is allowable, to ask for one.
> 
> the PIP itself should be in writing, should set out the areas for improvement, should have a policy and process that sit behind it and those should be followed. Are they?
> 
> ...





Peanuts20 said:


> The norm in any organisation where a PIP is in place would be for an appeal to be allowable on the initial review done in the first place. So her starting point should be to review the current process for reviews that are in place and if an appeal is allowable, to ask for one.
> 
> the PIP itself should be in writing, should set out the areas for improvement, should have a policy and process that sit behind it and those should be followed. Are they?
> 
> ...


No the Union have had a look at what her manager is  calling spelling and grammar errors and acknowledges that there is an issue there.  Also they recognize that the work is in line with her colleagues including the manager himself and hence the call for a grievance claim.


----------



## Acorn22 (23 Sep 2021)

arbitron said:


> What is a PIP? I thought you meant personal insolvency practitioner but that doesn't fit. Productivity improvement plan?


No sure - I think its a performance improvement plan.


----------



## Acorn22 (23 Sep 2021)

Peanuts20 said:


> The norm in any organisation where a PIP is in place would be for an appeal to be allowable on the initial review done in the first place. So her starting point should be to review the current process for reviews that are in place and if an appeal is allowable, to ask for one.
> 
> the PIP itself should be in writing, should set out the areas for improvement, should have a policy and process that sit behind it and those should be followed. Are they?
> 
> ...


Its not about her work/performance - its personal.


----------



## Dublin Abu (23 Sep 2021)

Sorry to read about personal situation. It appears most distressing. 

What is contained in the PIP - has your wife addressed these issues ?


----------



## ryaner (23 Sep 2021)

For extending the PIP, ensure *ALL* communication with her boss is in writing, and for any meetings of any kind, she should follow up with a summary, hopefully before the other person does. The PIP itself should have a detailed list of requirements/goals. She should focus solely on those, and if anything else comes up in the meantime, even small stuff, have a canned response along the lines of I need to focus on the goals of the PIP to ensure you are happy with my performance so I'll need to park this task for now.

Now to why I said extend, I've only seen two people subjected to a PIP come out of it happy. One had some personal issues that we'll say lowered job performance. The PIP triggered some better communications and the boss in question was much more understanding after finding out there was an external issue, everything improved etc. 
The second one did the above, got signed off as passing the PIP, then immediately downed tools so to speak. The company had at the time a policy that someone couldn't be put on a second PIP for a number of months after passing one to stop bullying, so they took advantage of this and did almost nothing for that period until they entered the second PIP. Queue repeat of the above. Not suggesting your partner does this btw, although their boss sounds like someone who deserves it.

Really though once a boss decides to put someone on what is obviously a malicious PIP, the only goal is to extend things long enough to jump ship as short of the boss being exited from the company, things will never be ok again.


----------



## Peanuts20 (24 Sep 2021)

I've done PIP's (personal improvement plans) with staff in the past. They were never based on personal issues and were always based on performance issues and usually down to stupid careless errors being made by the employee, a lack of attention to detail that in some cases resulted in losses to our company. 

Firstly, I'd take what the union said here with a very large pinch of salt. they won't have any true understanding of what other people's output is like or the quality of it. 

Secondly, an employee can easily turn a PIP 360 degrees if they are clever. If they ask the manager, "what do you think I need to do to improve my performance", get that put in writing into the PIP and then show how they are delivering it, it puts the manager in a more difficult spot. In any large organisation, a PIP will also be recorded by HR. If they smell something funny going on, they may not be in any rush to support a manager if they see a hint of a tribunal or other case coming down the line. 

There does seem to be a broader issue alluded to here and it is not clear why the manager may have a vindictive issue against this employee. There is more to this story then meets the eye. 

If it is a case of malicious behaviour against the employee then the employee needs to do everything by the book, record everything but I wouldn't jump ship, file a grievance, file a complaint of bullying, whatever. You won't be working there long term and no major company wants the hassle and bad publicity of a tribunal case so it may be time to see what you can exit with in terms of financial compensation.


----------



## Bolter (24 Sep 2021)

Peanuts20 has given some great advice.Co-operate with the pip. If it's private sector just look for another job while doing so. Your partners goal now should be to get a decent reference.  That's why co-operating with pip and staying calm is important. If it's public sector and she's been there a long time, I'd be getting a second opinion from a specialist employment lawyer as there's pension issues to consider which can be valuable. 
Bullying is extremely difficult to prove and generally disciplinary procedures (even tough ones) aren't considered bullying.


----------



## muinteoir (24 Sep 2021)

Thirsty said:


> Take the Solicitor's advice and get out.
> 
> No amount of money will compensate for the distress you will go through if you try and stick it out.


Yes that would be my advice too. I've been told that the book Bully in Sight by Tim Field is very good. Everything can be twisted to make it look as it if is justified but bullying for the victim is soul-destroying.


----------



## Acorn22 (24 Sep 2021)

Bolter said:


> Peanuts20 has given some great advice.Co-operate with the pip. If it's private sector just look for another job while doing so. Your partners goal now should be to get a decent reference.  That's why co-operating with pip and staying calm is important. If it's public sector and she's been there a long time, I'd be getting a second opinion from a specialist employment lawyer as there's pension issues to consider which can be valuable.
> Bullying is extremely difficult to prove and generally disciplinary procedures (even tough ones) aren't considered bullying.


Thanks she's going  to go the distance in this instance and pursue the company and the manager as the manager himself has the same so called or invented errors in his work (they are not errors that is the issue) and so do her other colleagues.  Its easy to track and trace the dysfunctional patterns of behaviour in the PIP and demonstrate that this process is being used to manage her out of her position.  It's unfortunate for the manager in this situation as he got lazy and is not that smart.  He left a very obvious trail that will now enable her to hang him out to dry.  I feel for those who have a more capable manager/person at the helm.  You wouldn't have a leg to stand on.  What's worry in all this is that while there are valid grounds for some people to be put on a PIP there are those out there whereby it is used as a tool to get rid of them which is unbelievable in this day and age.  Managers/people who are blind to this in general need to wake up.  It like trying to suggest that there is only such thing as daylight and that the darkness does not exist.  I've  chatted to friends and family who claim it's rampant especially in companies who lack an ounce of integrity.  I think that companies need to review this and maybe an external person recommended by the union who is an expert in the said area of profession to step in.  Just a suggestion but it's better than the current situation in companies.

I wouldn't be recommending that she sticks it out for a reference.  You are entitled by law to a good reference anyway.  That's according to the union.

Thanks


----------



## Acorn22 (24 Sep 2021)

muinteoir said:


> Yes that would be my advice too. I've been told that the book Bully in Sight by Tim Field is very good. Everything can be twisted to make it look as it if is justified but bullying for the victim is soul-destroying.


I know its chilling but guess what there has to be something fundamentally wrong with someone who sets out to harm another especially when you've done nothing apart from put up a few personal boundaries around your time off .  Lets face it!  Anyone who has issue around someone who has personal boundaries needs help.


----------



## muinteoir (26 Sep 2021)

kingvagabond said:


> I know its chilling but guess what there has to be something fundamentally wrong with someone who sets out to harm another especially when you've done nothing apart from put up a few personal boundaries around your time off .  Lets face it!  Anyone who has issue around someone who has personal boundaries needs help.


People like that don't stop until someone higher up stops them.


----------



## galway_blow_in (26 Sep 2021)

kingvagabond said:


> I know its chilling but guess what there has to be something fundamentally wrong with someone who sets out to harm another especially when you've done nothing apart from put up a few personal boundaries around your time off .  Lets face it!  Anyone who has issue around someone who has personal boundaries needs help.


Yeah , it's called being bad


----------



## Acorn22 (26 Sep 2021)

muinteoir said:


> People like that don't stop until someone higher up stops them.


There's no interest higher up!  Turn a blind eye while at the same time have a bible on their lap. Seriously - if it wasn't so serious it would make a good father Ted episode.


----------



## becky (26 Sep 2021)

kingvagabond said:


> I know its chilling but guess what there has to be something fundamentally wrong with someone who sets out to harm another especially when you've done nothing apart from put up a few personal boundaries around your time off .  Lets face it!  Anyone who has issue around someone who has personal boundaries needs help.





kingvagabond said:


> Thanks she's going  to go the distance in this instance and pursue the company and the manager as the manager himself has the same so called or invented errors in his work (they are not errors that is the issue) and so do her other colleagues.  Its easy to track and trace the dysfunctional patterns of behaviour in the PIP





kingvagabond said:


> I wouldn't be recommending that she sticks it out for a reference.  You are entitled by law to a good reference anyway.  That's according to the union.
> 
> Thanks


That's incorrect. An employer is legally obliged to provide employment dates and role, nothing else. 

An employer can't write a 'bad' reference out of the blue, but they can write a truthful one. For example, the ee had a below par attendance pattern. 

I read references as part of my job and take most of them with a pinch of salt. People in private sector have told they don't much rate written references.


----------



## galway_blow_in (26 Sep 2021)

While they might well pay lip service to HR process,  Business usually just circles the wagons and tries to focus on silencing the complainer rather than the one being complained about


----------



## Salvadore (26 Sep 2021)

kingvagabond said:


> I wouldn't be recommending that she sticks it out for a reference.  You are entitled by law to a good reference anyway.  That's according to the union.



There’s nothing in law that entitles anyone to a good reference. If the union is saying otherwise, I wouldn’t trust any other advice they give.

Nobody likes to be called out on their performance but don’t automatically rule out that there may be an issue. As others have suggested, your partner should engage with the process but ensure everything is in writing. Ask questions, look for clarity etc. Convey the sense that she wants to turn things around.

She’s naturally hurt and her back is up. It may be that the manager just isn’t handling the process well. They may be relying on a gut feeling that performance isn’t adequate but incapable of articulating the specifics of what the problem is or how it can corrected.


----------



## becky (27 Sep 2021)

Salvadore said:


> There’s nothing in law that entitles anyone to a good reference. If the union is saying otherwise, I wouldn’t trust any other advice they give.
> 
> Nobody likes to be called out on their performance but don’t automatically rule out that there may be an issue. As others have suggested, your partner should engage with the process but ensure everything is in writing. Ask questions, look for clarity etc. Convey the sense that she wants to turn things around.
> 
> She’s naturally hurt and her back is up. It may be that the manager just isn’t handling the process well. They may be relying on a gut feeling that performance isn’t adequate but incapable of articulating the specifics of what the problem is or how it can corrected.


To be fair, I've heard the "you can't give a bad reference" from many sources. 

IMO it's a case of Chinese whispers. The message started with you can only state dates title and nothing else, to you can't give a bad reference, to you can only give a good reference. 

Most of the big companies only provide dates / title. I've had managers ringing me off the record (I can't do off the record as I'm HSE). 

It's fine if they tell me the ee was exceptional etc., but once I tell them I can't do "off the record" and they end the call, I know enough to make a decision. Usually I can't do anything. 

In 20 years I haven't proceeded to contract with about 10. If I could use that information it would be in the 100s.

I issue about 500 to 1000 contracts a year, depending on what Paul R says. .


----------



## Leper (27 Sep 2021)

Other than starting date and end date and grade and perhaps job description many employers do not give what we know as a written reference. But, what if a new prospective employer rings the manager of the old company. There is nothing to stop the manager  (off the record)bad mouthing a former employee. Depending on where you sit this is more powerful than a bad written reference.


----------



## kinnjohn (27 Sep 2021)

Leper said:


> Other than starting date and end date and grade and perhaps job description many employers do not give what we know as a written reference. But, what if a new prospective employer rings the manager of the old company. There is nothing to stop the manager  (off the record)bad mouthing a former employee. Depending on where you sit this is more powerful than a bad written reference.


Don't read too much into it' is all it takes,


----------



## Leper (27 Sep 2021)

We are getting lost in what really is at stake here.
1. The employee feels bullied and cannot afford to cease working. (Giving up work is not an option)
2. A qualified "labour" solicitor has indicated there is little or no chance of a favourable outcome regarding alleged bullying or mal workplace practice. (probably the main external player in this situation and speaks sense)
3. From where I sit the only options are (i) Union representation and be prepared to go the distance (available) or (ii) Go down the cynical line with "My manager is brilliant and is always right and I couldn't have asked for better." (Paraphrase:- Smile and be a villain)


----------



## Up Rovers (27 Sep 2021)

Not sure if mentioning this is relevant to this discussion but a few friends who went down the Constructive Dismissal route regretted it because they felt from a stress level alone it left them worn out.  I have also seen many discussions on AAM over the years where people expressed the same opinion.


----------



## Steven Barrett (27 Sep 2021)

Up Rovers said:


> Not sure if mentioning this relevant to this discussion but a few friends who went down the Constructive Dismissal route regretted it because they felt from a stress level alone it left them worn out.  I have also seen many discussions on AAM over the years where people expressed the same opinion.


I know a few people over the years who have gone to Tribunals over work place grievances, none of them came out of it happy. There is a huge amount of stress involved, in addition to the stress that has already been caused. Then there is the cost of legal advice. It's not cheap and companies can quite easily cover these costs whereas an employee will struggle. Then it takes a very long time to get an outcome of the process, with it usually being months after the due date and even if you win, the employer can appeal (more costs and time).


----------



## Leo (27 Sep 2021)

As already stated, there is no statutory entitlement in Irish law that an employer must provide a reference, let alone a good one. Likewise, they do not have to provide a confirmation of employment.

Many companies now have stopped providing references and will just provide a confirmation of employment due to potential liability or reputation issues around recommendations. Where I work haven't paid much notice to references for years, the best ones were often employers happy to be rid of a sub-par employee or were written by friends.


----------



## Acorn22 (27 Sep 2021)

Salvadore said:


> She’s naturally hurt and her back is up. It may be that the manager just isn’t handling the process well. They may be relying on a gut feeling that performance isn’t adequate but incapable of articulating the specifics of what the problem is or how it can corrected.


There is absolutely nothing wrong with her performance.  This is personal and it rattles me that people seem to think that a PIP is 100% born out of good intentions - to help someone perform better at their job and that there are no occasions where it can be used to manage someone out who doesn't fit cultural expectations within an organization such as working outside of contractual work hours.  And possibly being rejected by her.


----------



## Acorn22 (27 Sep 2021)

Leo said:


> As already stated, there is no statutory entitlement in Irish law that an employer must provide a reference, let alone a good one. Likewise, they do not have to provide a confirmation of employment.
> 
> Many companies now have stopped providing references and will just provide a confirmation of employment due to potential liability or reputation issues around recommendations. Where I work haven't paid much notice to references for years, the best ones were often employers happy to be rid of a sub-par employee or were written by friends.


She'll touch base with the union again regarding that and I'll let you know what they say.  She's already had one conversation regarding that and it was said that they will provide reference etc.


----------



## Acorn22 (27 Sep 2021)

Leper said:


> We are getting lost in what really is at stake here.
> 1. The employee feels bullied and cannot afford to cease working. (Giving up work is not an option)
> 2. A qualified "labour" solicitor has indicated there is little or no chance of a favourable outcome regarding alleged bullying or mal workplace practice. (probably the main external player in this situation and speaks sense)
> 3. From where I sit the only options are (i) Union representation and be prepared to go the distance (available) or (ii) Go down the cynical line with "My manager is brilliant and is always right and I couldn't have asked for better." (Paraphrase:- Smile and be a villain)


She's in the middle of crossing between no. 3 point (i) and (ii).  But when it's not about your performance and the true nature of the manager's  complaint is personal then it's become a dangerous process as the manager now dislikes my partner.   It's very messy and stressful at the moment for her.  Being told your work is incorrect whilst others are doing it under her nose including manager himself (gas-lighting).  The process from where I am standing is a tool used to abuse, bully and drive a person out.


----------



## Bolter (27 Sep 2021)

Your partner and you sound like very principled people.  Your partner may be better than her own  boss at her job- he may be jealous: this is a surprisingly common ground for bullying.
Or it may be that further up there has been a direction to cut down staff numbers. 
Pips are , as you rightly say, sometimes used to manage people out.
So what can Your partner do?
Ye need the money.
Firstly,  be careful with union. It may well be that manager is also talking to union.
 And your partner has got  wrong advice from them already (re: reference) 
your wife should Comply with the pip and put the ball back in managers court- ask him exactly what he wants.
Your wife should, meanwhile,  apply for other jobs. Once she's out and in a new job she can then turn  around and sue if that's what she still wants.
Right now she's naturally stressed and angry. 
Remember,  revenge is a dish best served cold


----------



## Peanuts20 (27 Sep 2021)

kingvagabond said:


> There is absolutely nothing wrong with her performance.  This is personal and it rattles me that people seem to think that a PIP is 100% born out of good intentions - to help someone perform better at their job and that there are no occasions where it can be used to manage someone out who doesn't fit cultural expectations within an organization such as working outside of contractual work hours.  And possibly being rejected by her.


 Do you know why it is personal?


----------



## Salvadore (27 Sep 2021)

kingvagabond said:


> There is absolutely nothing wrong with her performance.  This is personal and it rattles me that people seem to think that a PIP is 100% born out of good intentions - to help someone perform better at their job and that there are no occasions where it can be used to manage someone out who doesn't fit cultural expectations within an organization such as working outside of contractual work hours.  And possibly being rejected by her.


Well if you’re satisfied that the PIP is just a ruse, then you have to ask yourselves why they really want your partner out. The company isn’t going to tell you explicitly.

You say it’s personal but if there’s a particular reason they want her out, maybe you need to start there.

As has been said, organisations have ways of ‘managing’ people out if they really no longer want them. But it you can do something about the reason they no longer want the person, this would seem the best solution.


----------



## Bolter (27 Sep 2021)

No organisation is ever going to admit to managing someone out through a pip. 
the whole point of a pip, when carried out in good faith, is to identify the exact problems that have arisen  and then give time to remedy those problems.
That doesn't appear to be happening here (and yes I know we only have one side of the story)
however if an organisation is using a pip,  for example to cut down staff numbers/ because of personality clash/ because the owners wife's niece wants the job they are never going to
 admit that to employee.


----------



## Leo (27 Sep 2021)

kingvagabond said:


> She'll touch base with the union again regarding that and I'll let you know what they say.  She's already had one conversation regarding that and it was said that they will provide reference etc.


There may be a local agreement or a precedent in place that means the employer is bound to provide one, but there definitely is no requirement in law.


----------



## Leper (27 Sep 2021)

I would remind the OP that the employer is not the enemy here. There may be a case of an over zealous manager or even an over zealous union rep or both. Don't lose sight of the objective here and work towards a good result.


----------



## alexandra123 (27 Sep 2021)

I have not read all the comments but to ensure your partner is writing correctly, would she use Grammarly for word check ?


----------



## Leo (27 Sep 2021)

alexandra123 said:


> I have not read all the comments but to ensure your partner is writing correctly, would she use Grammarly for word check ?


I'd be very cautious about that, installing that plug-in that would expose internal company information and in many companies would be a serious violation.


----------



## Acorn22 (27 Sep 2021)

alexandra123 said:


> I have not read all the comments but to ensure your partner is writing correctly, would she use Grammarly for word check ?


There is no issue with her performance.  This is personal.


----------



## messyleo (18 Dec 2022)

Acorn22 said:


> There is no issue with her performance.  This is personal.



Hi Acorn22
Wondering how you got on with this? In a similar situation and hope you got a positive outcome? Would be good to hear if so


----------



## Sue Ellen (19 Dec 2022)

gravitygirl said:


> Hi Acorn22
> Wondering how you got on with this? In a similar situation and hope you got a positive outcome? Would be good to hear if so



Hi gravitygirl,

Unfortunately Acorn22 has not been on AAM for some months so may not see your post.


----------



## DeeKie (19 Dec 2022)

If he is changing her work she should run word comparisons between her work and his version for a few rounds. And then send these to a senior person, alleging the creation of a toxic unsafe stress cresting work environment. Then do a formal grievance. She’s going anyway.


----------



## AlbacoreA (21 Dec 2022)

Long time ago I had a manager who would micromanage like this change words and wording for no reason. I submitted their own corrected text back to them on occasion and they still corrected it. In isolation seems picky only. But when all the changes are written down en mass it's looks like a crazy person. Mine resolved with a lateral move.


----------

