# Is it compulsary to supply/wear lifejackets on something like an office fishing trip?



## legend99 (6 Oct 2006)

is it compulsary to supply/wear life jackets on something like an office fishing trip outing? Folks from work here were out on a trip in AUgust and someone just put up photos and noone is wearing a life jacket on the boat....?


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## ajapale (6 Oct 2006)

*Re: Is it compulsary to supply/wear lifejackets on something like an office fishing t*

Some links that I have which may be usefull.

Irish Water Safety Association      www.iws.ie
Safety on the water      www.safetyonthewater.ie 
Guide to buying a lifejacket      [broken link removed]            
A large number of pamphlets are available from          www.safetyonthewater.ie/Safety+Brochures  (in PDF format).

and from the central fisheries board.



> *Charter Boat Certification*
> 
> It is strongly advised that you confirm with any operators you may wish to use that they fully comply with the safety regulations and standards layed down by the Maritime Safety Services. Furthermore, anglers, when commencing their charter trip, should ask to see relevant insurance and safety documentation which should be prominently displayed on board. Sample Load Line                Exemption Certificate.
> *Safety*
> ...


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## Humpback (6 Oct 2006)

*Re: Life Jackets*

Depending on the size of the boat, it can be compulsory to wear lifejackets.

Everyone on a boat under 23feet is obliged by law to wear a lifejacket. On boats bigger than that, there must be sufficient lifejackets onboard for everyone.

Everyone under 16 must always wear lifejackets on any size boat (pleasure-craft).

More details


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## efm (6 Oct 2006)

Compulsary or not it's bloody stupid not to wear one


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## ajapale (6 Oct 2006)

*Re: Is it compulsary to supply/wear lifejackets on something like an office fishing t*

If its an office outing the employer has a duty of care to the employees in terms of health and safety that might well go beyond that which is required by the water safety regulations.


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## Humpback (6 Oct 2006)

efm said:


> Compulsary or not it's bloody stupid not to wear one



Bit of an overstatement there. I don't think it's "bloody stupid" to not be wearing a lifejack in all situations?

If you've no experience of the sea and boating whatsoever, then yes, it'd be stupid. Otherwise, knowledge and experience (and sea and weather conditions) should dictate how you operate.


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## demoivre (6 Oct 2006)

*Re: Is it compulsary to supply/wear lifejackets on something like an office fishing t*



ronan_d_john said:


> Bit of an overstatement there. I don't think it's "bloody stupid" to not be wearing a lifejack in all situations?
> 
> If you've no experience of the sea and boating whatsoever, then yes, it'd be stupid. Otherwise, knowledge and experience (and sea and weather conditions) should dictate how you operate.



And you're living in cloud cuckoo land if you think that only inexperienced people drown at sea. With respect ronan, for an experienced poster on here, that is the dumbest piece of advice I have read on here  in a long time . I live very near to fishing communities in the South east and there are so many examples of experienced sea men who died because they didn't wear lifejackets. If you don't believe me just ask the families of Pat Colfer , Jim Myler, Jim Cooney, Seamus and Mark Doyle and John Cullen to name but a few and yep I knew five of these guys.


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## nai (6 Oct 2006)

personally i think it's stupid as well - was out in Howth one sunny windy Sunday a few weeks ago - there were lots of people taking the trip over to Ireland's Eye (with young children in some cases) and not one of them had a lifejacket on - where is the parent's brain as well as the operators ?
at the time the seas looked to be rolling waves at about 2 feet - enough to cause problems i would think.


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## Humpback (6 Oct 2006)

*Re: Is it compulsary to supply/wear lifejackets on something like an office fishing t*



demoivre said:


> And you're living in cloud cuckoo land if you think that only inexperienced people drown at sea. With respect ronan, for an experienced poster on here, that is the dumbest piece of advice I have read on here in a long time . I live very near to fishing communities in the South east and there are so many examples of experienced sea men who died because they didn't wear lifejackets. If you don't believe me just ask the families of Pat Colfer , Jim Myler, Jim Cooney, Seamus and Mark Doyle and John Cullen to name but a few and yep I knew five of these guys.


 
With respect, I never said that only inexperienced people drown at sea. Neither did I imply as you seem to be suggesting, that experienced seamen would be safe to not wear life jackets at all.

My comment was that with experience and knowledge, experienced sea men and women should know the sea conditions and weather in which it is prudent to wear life jackets, and when it is safe not to do so. 

They should also know when it is safe to actually be out in a boat, and when they should stop chasing the euros and actually return to shore.

And to clarify, my comments are to be taken in context of my earlier post where I stated the legislation with regards to lifejackets. I was not, and would not, condone anyone to break the law with regards to life jackets. 

The Rising Sun fishing boat (skippered and crewed by the gentlemen you mention) was a 26ft fishing boat. This boat is larger than the maximum size of boat where lifejackets were compulsory to be worn.

Therefore it was most definitely down to the knowledge and experience of these men to decide whether or not to wear lifejackets (assuming that there were actually lifejackets on board) - since they weren't obliged to do so.


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## efm (6 Oct 2006)

*Re: Is it compulsary to supply/wear lifejackets on something like an office fishing t*



ronan_d_john said:


> My comment was that with experience and knowledge, experienced sea men and women should know the sea conditions and weather in which it is prudent to wear life jackets, and when it is safe not to do so.


 
I'd like to know the sea and weather conditions where it would be considered safe not to wear a life jacket ? Even in flat calm water on a sunny day a boat can have a fire, take on water, dismast, be in collision with another boat or can have a man overboard. Time spent looking for, finding and putting on a life jacket in any of these situations could be critical.

Unless the boat is large enough to have a permanent or quick deploy liferaft / lifeboat on deck or has a "sinking time" of more than 15 minutes then life jackets should be worn at all times as a matter of course.

I would equate wearing a life jacket on a boat to wearing a seat belt in a car - it is worn automatically and is only taken off in exceptional circumstances.

I also think that the current regulations excusing boats over 23 feet are too lenient and the length should be reviewed upwards.

FWIW Dublin Bay Sailing Club racing rules state that life jackets are mandatory and non compliance will result in penalties and / or disqualification, with no exemption for boat size.


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## Humpback (6 Oct 2006)

*Re: Is it compulsary to supply/wear lifejackets on something like an office fishing t*



efm said:


> I would equate wearing a life jacket on a boat to wearing a seat belt in a car - it is worn automatically and is only taken off in exceptional circumstances.


 
You might, but the law (which matters), doesn't. Therefore, as I said, it's down to seamen to make these decisions for themselves.

Some may decide to wear them all the time, while others may decide to evaluate the sea, the weather, the kind of boating they're doing, the activity of other boats around them, and decide that they don't need to wear one.

Like anything in life, you assess the risks, and bound by the laws governing your activity, you make a choice of how you want to act.



efm said:


> I also think that the current regulations excusing boats over 23 feet are too lenient and the length should be reviewed upwards.


 
Fair enough. Make it compulsory on all boats. Have everyone on car ferries and cruise ships wear lifejackets at all times - would fit into covering all the eventualities you mention at the start of your last post.


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## efm (6 Oct 2006)

*Re: Is it compulsary to supply/wear lifejackets on something like an office fishing t*



ronan_d_john said:


> Fair enough. Make it compulsory on all boats. Have everyone on car ferries and cruise ships wear lifejackets at all times - would fit into covering all the eventualities you mention at the start of your last post.


 
I did actually say that:

Unless the boat is large enough to have a permanent or quick deploy liferaft / lifeboat on deck or has a "sinking time" of more than 15 minutes then life jackets should be worn at all times as a matter of course.

I am not advocating life jackets be worn at all times on car ferries and cruise ships.


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## demoivre (6 Oct 2006)

*Re: Is it compulsary to supply/wear lifejackets on something like an office fishing t*



> With respect, I never said that only inexperienced people drown at sea. Neither did I imply as you seem to be suggesting, that experienced seamen would be safe to not wear life jackets at all.
> 
> My comment was that with experience and knowledge, experienced sea men and women should know the sea conditions and weather in which it is prudent to wear life jackets, and when it is safe not to do so.
> 
> They should also know when it is safe to actually be out in a boat, and when they should stop chasing the euros and actually return to shore.



My point is it is always prudent to wear a life jacket at sea when aboard pleasure / fishing boats . You *always *stand a better chance out at sea when you are wearing a life jacket if you end up in the water - you wear it as a back up, regardless of weather conditions and your level of experience, because as efm pointed out there may well be unexpected problems . If one followed your logic the unexpected would never happpen. The morning the Pisces set out there wasn't a ripple on the sea on a July morning, I know as I was in Slade that day and in any case it's well documented. None of the experienced seamen went out that morning thinking they were going to die but five of them did die because they weren't wearing life jackets and couldn't stay afloat until they were picked up by an accompanying boat, after their own boat sank.





> The Rising Sun fishing boat (skippered and crewed by the gentlemen you mention) was a 26ft fishing boat. This boat is larger than the maximum size of boat where lifejackets were compulsory to be worn.



The law is a farce here. Let common sense prevail. Do you need a law to tell you that you should have smoke alarms in your house? By the way The Pisces and Rising Sun are two different boats and went down in different circumstances.  The Rising Sun was skippered by Pat Colfer and accompanied by Jim Meyler and Ian Tierney  - Tierney was the only one to survive that day and guess what he was wearing that the others weren't? The next time I meet Jimmy's wife I must remind her that because he was on a 26ft boat he didn't by law have to wear life saving gear - some consolation . What's even sadder about this tragedy is that Billy O' Connor, a local volunteer diver, lost his life while trying to recover the remains of the skipper. Bar you're on a cross channel ferry or the like wear a life jacket when at sea on a pleasure craft, regardless of your experience, and imo there is a strong argument for fishermen aboard trawlers being obliged to wear survival suits.


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## PMU (6 Oct 2006)

Under SI 586 of 2001 Fishing Vessel (Personal Flotation Devices) Regulations, 2001 [broken link removed] there is an absolute legal obligation to carry one personal flotation device for every person on board and to take all reasonable steps to ensure under S.I. No. 259 of 2004 Merchant Shipping (pleasure craft) (lifejackets and operation) (safety) Regulations 2004 [broken link removed]that children under 16 are wearing them at all times.


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## RainyDay (8 Oct 2006)

Have you considered raising the matter with your office Health & Safety officer?


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## Humpback (9 Oct 2006)

demoivre - you are moving the argument here away from the rights and wrongs of wearing lifejackets to how stupid people can act when it comes to being in and around the sea.
And unfortunately for you, the arguments you're making are doing nothing to strengthen your case.



demoivre said:


> My point is it is always prudent to wear a life jacket at sea when aboard pleasure / fishing boats . You *always *stand a better chance out at sea when you are wearing a life jacket if you end up in the water - you wear it as a back up, regardless of weather conditions and your level of experience, because as efm pointed out there may well be unexpected problems .


 
I'm not arguing with your comment that you've a better chance - in the case of when something happens - if you're wearing a lifejacket.



demoivre said:


> If one followed your logic the unexpected would never happpen.


 
I think I remember having this argument here before regarding "freak waves" that are alleged to have sank many Irish boats. To a large extent, there is nothing that is ever unexpected when it comes to the sea.

Getting hit by another boat isn't unexpected, because boats can't come from nowhere. You're either not paying attention (or your drunk as happened in Dublin Bay), or you're in shipping lanes where you're not supposed to be because you don't know where you're going (which has also happened).

The predominance of alleged freak waves to hit boats in Ireland is substantially higher than the measured chances that freakwaves happen at all. This is merely an excuse to cover situations where boats stay out in weather which they shouldn't be out in at all.

Boats kitted with fire extinguishers will protect against the unexpected fire. How many boats actually have checked and working fire extinguishers. As a sample, where I have my boat, I can tell you that my one boat out of 25 is the only one to carry a fire extinguisher.

Unexpected things don't happen at sea. You either put yourself in a situation where something dangerous will happen, or you're inexperienced enough not to see the consequences of your actions, or you just ignore the signs of what might happen, or you're just unprepared for does happen.



demoivre said:


> The morning the Pisces set out there wasn't a ripple on the sea on a July morning, I know as I was in Slade that day and in any case it's well documented. None of the experienced seamen went out that morning thinking they were going to die but five of them did die because they weren't wearing life jackets and couldn't stay afloat until they were picked up by an accompanying boat, after their own boat sank.


 
I think it's very sad that you've brought up this example. I truely believe that this incident was a case of manslaughter rather than any kind of accident or unexpected occurrance.

As per an RTE report, The findings of the investigation into the Pisces sinking are blunt: *the boat was unseaworthy and unstable and in poor condition. The vessel did not carry sufficient lifesaving appliances and was overloaded with ten people aboard when it foundered. *

Any of these points could have been avoided by the skipper, who was also inexperienced. If I remember, I don't think he'd ever owned a boat before, and had only just recently bought this particular boat. I don't think he was out in it before.

This Pisces incident has nothing whatsoever to do with lifejackets - per my arguments. This was a wreckless and careless action by a skipper who put the lives of his family and friends in danger. If ever there was a case to display a lack of respect for the sea, it was shown in this case.



demoivre said:


> The law is a farce here.


 
This isn't the argument here. You may think that it is, but such is life. Get over it.



demoivre said:


> Let common sense prevail.


 
This is exactly my point. Common sense dictates when it's safe to wear a lifejacket and when it isn't. Common sense for experienced seamen - if you're not experienced, common sense dictates you remove any chance and always wear a lifejacket.



demoivre said:


> The next time I meet Jimmy's wife I must remind her that because he was on a 26ft boat he didn't by law have to wear life saving gear - some consolation.


 
Is this kind of comment really necessary? This was his choice. No one else, one way or the other, had any impact on his decision regarding a lifejacket. And knowing fishermen around Ireland, if the law said it or not, he probably wouldn't have worn one anyway. 

Why don't you say to her what you were saying about my comments earlier, that Mr.Colfer died because he didn't wear a lifejacket, his own choice, rather than what legislation may or may not say.

>>posts merged by ajapale>>



legend99 said:


> is it compulsary to supply/wear life jackets on something like an office fishing trip outing? Folks from work here were out on a trip in AUgust and someone just put up photos and noone is wearing a life jacket on the boat....?


 
legend99, just to get back on topic. What size was the boat that they were out fishing on?


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