# Mistake on refund cheque - would you tell?



## paddywhacker (20 Jul 2007)

A mate of mine ordered a high value item some months back and put a deposit of 1k on it. He was given a delivery date of eight weeks but fourteen weeks passed and still nothing was happening. He complained but no joy and eventually threatened to walk away but was told he woudn't get his deposit back. 
So he called the Consumer rights group who told him he was entitled to his money back as he didn;t get the item so he went back and told the company to stuff it, and he wanted his deposit back. He'd originally paid by credit card and wanted the 1k put back on. They said, no, it would have to be issued by cheque and then after another 3 weeks humming and hawing (and lots of complaints on his part) they agreed to have the cheque issued and couriered to his house some 18 weeks after he put the money down.  

But when he got the (printed) cheque, he discovered that it was for 10k not 1k.  It wasn't a case of an extra '0' as it was a printed cheque and the word 'one' was typed under the 10k box. 

Anyway my question is this, what would you do? I think he should inform them of the mistake and give it back, but his reasoning is that they messed him around for months and treated him and his custom with contempt. So he reckons he'll just wait for them to notice it and come to some arrangement then. It's now been over two months and they still haven't noticed! He asked around friends for their take on it, and most people are of the opinion he should just keep his mouth shut! 

What do the other members here think? I'm beginning to feel like I'm the only fool who thinks honesty is the best policy here..


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## ClubMan (20 Jul 2007)

Personally I would notify the payer but I suspect that, in law, you may be obliged to and not doing so would be tantamount to theft.


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## NorfBank (20 Jul 2007)

I'm with you.
The company will discover eventually in any case, your mate will always be waiting for the call. He might even spend it thinking the company has forgotten so when they do come calling it wil be worse.
Is it worth it? No.


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## LadyG (20 Jul 2007)

Oh the temptation to keep it!  

But yes I think Id have to tell them, in the long run they will discover their error and he may find himself owing them 10K.  ERK!


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## paddywhacker (20 Jul 2007)

That's exactly what I think but my mate is of the 'finders keepers' persuasion, as is anyone else he's asked. Interesting about the legal obligation Clubman - I wonder where I could find out more about that. Think he is playing with fire but he's convinced it's their tough.


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## ClubMan (20 Jul 2007)

There are some existing threads on similar topics such as individuals or financial institutions lodging amounts in error to one's bank account and the legal and other implications of taking the money and running or owning up. You might be able to find them by searching.


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## runner (20 Jul 2007)

I'd be tempted to lodge it and clear it and then ring them to negociate a reasonable amount to refund, maybe 8k? Worth a try! Anyway, you have to give it back. You are in control this way.


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## paddywhacker (20 Jul 2007)

It has already been lodged and cleared! And as I say, that's now over two months ago! Surely they would have noticed by now?


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## niceoneted (20 Jul 2007)

I'm wondering would this section under the Theft and Fraud offences act cover it 

6.—(1) A person who dishonestly, with the intention of making a gain for himself or herself or another, or of causing loss to another, by any deception induces another to do or refrain from doing an act is guilty of an offence.


(2) A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable on conviction on indictment to a fine or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 5 years or both.


I think I'd be giving it back.


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## Purple (20 Jul 2007)

It's stealing. Give it back.


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## 1308dorina (20 Jul 2007)

It's an awful lot of money! I don't know how he could sleep at night with that on his mind......i would jump every time the phone or doorbell rang! It's bound to be noticed at some stage.....probably when the auditors come in I would imagine.....the repercussions would be way too much to keep it himself


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## Caveat (20 Jul 2007)

This will certainly be noticed - at the very least, at end of year accounts.

On a practical level, don't kid yourself that this will be somehow be overlooked. You will almost certainly be asked for this back - it's just a matter of when.

On a moral level, it's no different to stealing IMO.


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## paddywhacker (20 Jul 2007)

Thanks for the Fraud and Offences Act niceoneted, that's exactly what I need to try and convince him once and for all to give it back - and all in one go, instead of the drips and drabs he says he'd do.

He also says that if they never discovered it he wouldn't keep it and instead would give it all to charity, but I still think that's a bit suspect.


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## JohnBoy (20 Jul 2007)

could he put it in a high-interest deposit account and cream off the interest until they come and look for the money?


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## Ravima (20 Jul 2007)

"Thou shalt not steal"

I learned this in school and I understood that it was a commandment given some time ago, but to be followed by mankind.

Perhaps however I am hallucinating and that celtic tiger Ireland has its own rules.


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## ClubMan (20 Jul 2007)

Not everybody who uses that as a guiding principle accepts that it's a commandment from a mystical being.


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## athens2004 (22 Jul 2007)

He will have to give it back it's the same as stealing. It is a lot of money so at some stage it will be noticed they could be even going through the books as we speak...........its not worth sleepless nights


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## RainyDay (22 Jul 2007)

I wouldn't be so certain that the money will be noticed.  If the error was made on the original refund paperwork (as opposed to an error by the person writing the cheque), it may not come to anyone's attention unless there is a detailed audit of all refunds.

A lot will depend on the size of the shop. If they issue a couple of €10k refund cheques a week, this will get little attention. If they issue 1 or 2 per annum, it may well get a lot of scrutiny.


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## Istabraq1 (23 Jul 2007)

Isn't holding your deposit after you demanded it back the same as stealing?
I'd wait the 18 weeks and for them to waste their time chasing you, just like you had to chase them before giving it back.
I think it would be very difficult for them to press any charges against you, you could always claim that you never noticed *cough cough * that the check was 10K instead of 1K and that you are very careless with money and never check your accounts.
I certainly wouldn't be spending any of it though, cause when they come looking ya will have to be able to give it back!


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## polly2000 (23 Jul 2007)

Regarding overpayments , I learned this quote a long time ago in business "If it's their mistake say nothing if it's yours chase it up"
From experience, overpayments and mistakes on invoices will not be reported by my creditors or debtors. They will be on like a light if they are overcharged but NOT the other way round.
It is really up to the accounts deptpartment or whoever deals with this to keep on top of things. It is thier mistake.
It is however a huge sum of money but I would wait a while and see how things pan out.
As regards interest, I would imagine if they did find out they would be only too glad to get the miney back without adding this on.
P


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## Jaid79 (24 Jul 2007)

polly2000 said:


> Regarding overpayments , I learned this quote a long time ago in business "If it's their mistake say nothing if it's yours chase it up"
> From experience, overpayments and mistakes on invoices will not be reported by my creditors or debtors. They will be on like a light if they are overcharged but NOT the other way round.
> It is really up to the accounts deptpartment or whoever deals with this to keep on top of things. It is thier mistake.
> It is however a huge sum of money but I would wait a while and see how things pan out.
> ...


 
Give it back... Polly sorry to hear such a tit for tat comment, is that really the way you run your business? 

I have had companies on occasion ring back to let me know they have been over paid by our accounts department. Its no quite always the way you have put it.


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## Brendan Burgess (24 Jul 2007)

In principle, give it back.

In practice,  charge them for messing you around and the cost of your time in chasing the product in the first place. Did you have to buy the product elsewhere at a higher price? 

I would be so annoyed at their inefficiency that I would do out a bill of costs and send it to them asking them to pay it. Have lengthy discussion on this and then deduct what you think is a fair amount from the €9,000 and repay it. 

They sound inefficient and so probably won't figure out how to lodge the cheque. 

Or send them a refund for €9 by mistake. 

Brendan


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## Brendan Burgess (24 Jul 2007)

Polly

I don't know what business you are in. I deal with my suppliers and my customers on a fair basis. They have overcharged me by accident and have brought it to my attention before I noticed it. I have done the same. Believe me, it's far better telling your customer that you have overcharged them that having them tell you. 

Brendan


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## Purple (24 Jul 2007)

How do you balance your books Polly?


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## 1308dorina (24 Jul 2007)

Polly I really can't believe your work ethic. I work in accounts and whether I have underpaid or overpaid somebody I always declare the error and fix it up......accounts wouldn't balance at the end of the year if you didn't deal with these things correctly....


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## ClubMan (24 Jul 2007)

Brendan said:


> In principle, give it back.
> 
> In practice,  charge them for messing you around and the cost of your time in chasing the product in the first place. Did you have to buy the product elsewhere at a higher price?
> 
> ...





Brendan said:


> I deal with my suppliers and my customers on a fair basis. They have overcharged me by accident and have brought it to my attention before I noticed it. I have done the same. Believe me, it's far better telling your customer that you have overcharged them that having them tell you.


Surely some contradiction between these two posts? Treat them fairly but stick them with unilateral "charges" for having made a presumably honest mistake?


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## Jaid79 (24 Jul 2007)

Brendan said:


> In principle, give it back.
> 
> In practice, charge them for messing you around and the cost of your time in chasing the product in the first place. Did you have to buy the product elsewhere at a higher price?
> 
> ...


 
Brillant, I like it


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## Jaid79 (24 Jul 2007)

ClubMan said:


> Surely some contradiction between these two posts? Treat them fairly but stick them with unilateral "charges" for having made a presumably honest mistake?


 
We all make mistakes and the most of them are honest ones, but on some occasions we also accept that there are some repercusions to those mistake i.e. costs

Brendan isnt suggesting shafting them he is suggests recovering costs.


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## ClubMan (24 Jul 2007)

Returning €9 would mean unilateral expenses of €8,991 being levied.


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## ubiquitous (24 Jul 2007)

Brendan said:


> In practice,  charge them for messing you around and the cost of your time in chasing the product in the first place. Did you have to buy the product elsewhere at a higher price?
> 
> I would be so annoyed at their inefficiency that I would do out a bill of costs and send it to them asking them to pay it. Have lengthy discussion on this and then deduct what you think is a fair amount from the €9,000 and repay it.
> 
> ...



Brendan, is this advice for real? If so, I am surprised that you would risk damaging your reputation by playing silly buggers in this way.


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## hope4711 (24 Jul 2007)

The Revenue once sent me a refund cheque for 40k as opposed to 4k.  I thought about it for 5 minutes then rang them.  I prefer to sleep at night!!!


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## pc7 (24 Jul 2007)

I'm with you hope4711 - treat others as you'd like to be treated


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## ClubMan (24 Jul 2007)

pc7 said:


> I'm with you hope4711 - treat others as you'd like to be treated


What if you're a masochist?


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## Jaid79 (25 Jul 2007)

ClubMan said:


> Returning €9 would mean unilateral expenses of €8,991 being levied.


 
Brendan, can you respond and let us know if your comments were some way tounge in cheek?


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## Brendan Burgess (25 Jul 2007)

The €9 comment was tongue in cheek. 

If someone makes an honest mistake and rectifies it, that is the end of the matter.

In this case, the company seems to have messed the OP around by not delivering when they said they would and he spent a lot of time (=money) chasing them. 

I would make a deduction for this. He has to decide what the appropriate deduction is.

Brendan


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## Headachecity (26 Jul 2007)

As an accountant I can assure you that when their audit is done it will be found, it's a refund error and once they go back to the original sales order, stock Item and check the refund, he will recieve a nice letter from the accountants, if he ignores that he will be contacted by solicitors and then a summons. He should just give it back.
I would terrified to keep such a large amount of money under false pretences as he will be caught at their year end accounts and audit!


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## Brendan Burgess (26 Jul 2007)

I would not be as confident as you are that the auditors will pick it up. It's not their job. They only have to make sure that the accounts show a true and fair view. They don't need to check every item. 

They will check a sample of refunds and a refund of €10,000 probably will appear on their sample. But if the company has a lot of refunds, and in particular, a lot of large refunds, it might not be picked up.

That does not mean that the OP should not refund it after expenses.

brendan


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