# Some plain speaking from the chair of the RTB



## Brendan Burgess (15 Oct 2022)

Landlords ‘are kind of price takers in the market’, says chair of RTB
					

Competitive bidding between those wishing to rent more properties a major factor in driving prices up, says Tom Dunne




					www.irishtimes.com
				




_A lack of supply was forcing people seeking to rent accommodation to bid against each other and this was a big contributor to driving up prices, he said.

The “notion” that landlords could and did charge what they wanted was not quite the whole story, said Mr Dunne.

...
Mr Dunne said that problem would not be resolved without an increase in supply. When asked if the Housing Assistance Payment (HAP) should be increased so people in receipt could also pay more to get security of tenure he replied it should not, warning that people who receive the subsidy would then be able to outbid those on low incomes who do not receive HAP.

...

Changing the rules around evictions would create even more problems, he said. If the rules change it could encourage landlords who rent out their accommodation temporarily not to do so because it would mean they could not regain possession._


----------



## jpd (15 Oct 2022)

Economics 101


----------



## Gervan (15 Oct 2022)

Meanwhile this








						People renting a room ‘effectively have no rights’, housing charity says
					

‘Paradox’ in rent-a-room tax breaks compared to small landlords, Threshold says




					www.irishtimes.com
				



puts fear into my heart as a provider of rooms for the past 4 years.

I have shared my house with students, and people new to the area looking for their own place, usually for a few months, longer when Covid hit. But always knowing the house was in my control if difficulties arose. Any "profit" after paying extra electricity, heating, and bin costs, or replacing appliances has been put back into making a more comfortable home for the next paying guests.
I won't be the only one closing my doors if that changes.
Do they really want another housing option to close?


----------



## NoRegretsCoyote (15 Oct 2022)

Brendan Burgess said:


> _Changing the rules around evictions would create even more problems, he said. If the rules change it could encourage landlords who rent out their accommodation temporarily not to do so because it would mean they could not regain possession._


There's a bit of self interest no doubt here too.
I suspect the RTB is clogged up with tenants challenging terminations of tenancy by landlords leaving the market at the moment.


----------



## Mocame (15 Oct 2022)

He is also correct about he demonisation of institutional landlords in Ireland. Large organisations can bear stronger regulation more easily than 'amateur' landlords with one rental property can.  Small landlords may buy a property to let with a view to letting their kids use it when they are in college, or they need to sell because they become unemployed and need the cash.  So long term tenancies are very unattractive to this cohort of landlords.  In contrast instructional landlords are seeking a long term return.


----------



## Brendan Burgess (16 Oct 2022)

jpd said:


> Economics 101



But that is often missing from the public discourse!


----------



## Brendan Burgess (16 Oct 2022)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> There's a bit of self interest no doubt here too.



What are you suggesting? That the Chairman of the RTB wants an easy life and fewer disputes? 

He wouldn't be remotely influenced by that.  If there were a proposal on some minor issue e.g. rental deposits, he might say that the overhead in hearing them did not justify the potential gain or loss to the tenant and landlord.

Brendan


----------



## AlbacoreA (16 Oct 2022)

I suspect the RTB is a bit of echo chamber for Govt as they never really give any insights into their own data other than to mirror the govt statements. Their data always seems to be selective in what it shows. And it can be hard to get other information from it.


----------



## AlbacoreA (16 Oct 2022)

Mocame said:


> He is also correct about he demonisation of institutional landlords in Ireland. Large organisations can bear stronger regulation more easily than 'amateur' landlords with one rental property can.  Small landlords may buy a property to let with a view to letting their kids use it when they are in college, or they need to sell because they become unemployed and need the cash.  So long term tenancies are very unattractive to this cohort of landlords.  In contrast instructional landlords are seeking a long term return.



What Demonization? Where are you getting that from?

I suspect most landlords regardless of size are hoping for a long term return. Mortgages are rarely short term and even cash buyers I assume aren't flipping btl properties on a regular basis.


----------



## AlbacoreA (16 Oct 2022)

He's basically saying it's all about supply and everything else is rearranging the furniture.


----------



## Mocame (16 Oct 2022)

AlbacoreA said:


> What Demonization? Where are you getting that from?
> 
> I suspect most landlords regardless of size are hoping for a long term return. Mortgages are rarely short term and even cash buyers I assume aren't flipping btl properties on a regular basis.


Well here is a example of the demonisation of intuitional landlords in this Irish Examiner article  which misquoted the RTB chair's comments:








						Vulture funds 'best landlords', says tenancies board chief
					

Warning that winter eviction ban may lead some landlords to leave rental market




					www.irishexaminer.com
				



The headline accuses him of saying that 'vulture funds' make better landlords, whereas in fact what he said is that intuitional landlords are more willing to provide long term tenancies than small landlords.  This point is an obvious one and borne out in other European countries.  In Germany most landlords are large institutional investors or owners of small businesses who invest in rented housing as part of the company pension fund.  

The media coverage of this sector and also the Twitter debate has been overwhelmingly negative and they are accused of bidding against first time buyers if they buy existing properties and accused of inflating land prices if they build new rented accommodation.  

Of course none of the critics have any idea of who will provide rented accommodation in the absence of these investors and with small landlords fleeing the market.  The stock answer is 'the state needs to be doing more' as if the state should be providing accommodation for trainee accountants or software engineers working in Google!


----------



## AlbacoreA (16 Oct 2022)

So there is no demonization in the article quoted. I thought I'd missed something in it.  

I don't disagree of anything you've posted. 

But I would wonder how much the association of Intuitional landlord with longer rentals is due to the regulations and enforcements of same in those countries and their cultural habits. I would love to see some data on the Irish market and other countries how long on average a person rents the same place (note not tenancy). I suspect there's a lot of assumptions being made about the market that may not be borne out by the data if it was available. 

For example all the positives usually associated with institutional landlord's in the media here are not reflected in the experiences in other countries. (To honest it was the same with RPZ and we refused to learn from others in that aswell). 






						Subscribe to read | Financial Times
					

News, analysis and comment from the Financial Times, the worldʼs leading global business publication




					www.ft.com
				











						Berliners back seizing housing from so-called mega landlords
					

In a referendum on Sunday timed to coincide with Germany's general election on Sunday, locals supported expropriation by 56% to 39%. #UncoveringEurope




					www.euronews.com
				




We've had our own experiences where large landlords have tried mass evictions in a more than one case leading to the 'Tyrrelstown’ amendment.


----------



## triggs (27 Nov 2022)

We have an agency(RTB)hardly contactable who threaten ordinary tax paying ,law abiding Irish citizens who happen to own a second property which they rent out at well below market rates(It is a fully fledged free-market economy which we inhabit and should protect) with fines of various flavour and ,get it,6 months imprisonment for some infringement.I find this offensive and worry for the future with regard to legislation which attempts to protect us from ourselves.We are basically a decent people.


----------



## Brendan Burgess (27 Nov 2022)

The RTB operates within the legislation it was set up under. 

Complain to the politicians about the stupid laws, and not the agency charged with enforcing them.

Brendan


----------



## Tuscany (28 Nov 2022)

I think that the RTB are meeting the Housing Committee tomorrow.  That should be an interesting conversation.


----------



## Purple (28 Nov 2022)

Tuscany said:


> I think that the RTB are meeting the Housing Committee tomorrow.  That should be an interesting conversation.


Why? Which member is going to ask the hard questions? 
Eoin Ó Broin won't, either will Ruth Coppinger or Grace O'Sullivan. 
Mattie McGrath won't and either will Victor Boylan. Barry Cowan is painfully populist so he won't either and the rest of the Government TD's will keep their heads down.


----------



## NoRegretsCoyote (28 Nov 2022)

Brendan Burgess said:


> and not the agency charged with enforcing them.


The RTB has considerable discretion in how it exercises many of its powers.

From personal experience their definition of "normal wear and tear" is ridiculously generous. From personal experience they interpret any ambiguity in correspondence as automatically being in favour of the tenant.

Many landlords on AAM have attested to this.


----------



## triggs (28 Nov 2022)

Interesting exchange at Oireachtas Housing Committee 15 Oct 2019.Chairman of RTB proferred an opinion that Landlords were leaving the market because of difficult Tenants and that Ireland had strong Tenancy rights.S.F housing spokesperson disagreed.He said Landlords were leaving because property prices had recovered to a point where Landlords could break even.A prescient observation and just a little premature in light of increasing prices.However my worry is this- is he implying that Landlords should not behave rationally in selling at an opportune time.If so is the concept of Rational Consumer to be suspended at the alter of some dystopian revision of conventional economic practice.I am afraid it is and do not see any point in complaining to some politicians who seem to occupy a Universe which is parallel to mine and who one day could assume office in our country


----------



## Groucho (28 Nov 2022)

Purple said:


> Why? Which member is going to ask the hard questions?
> Eoin Ó Broin won't, either will Ruth Coppinger or Grace O'Sullivan.    Mattie McGrath won't and either will Victor Boylan. Barry Cowan is painfully populist so he won't either and the rest of the Government TD's will keep their heads down.




It'll be difficult for Ruth Coppinger to ask any hard questions seeing as she's no longer a member of the Oireachtas - DG!
And Grace O'Sullivan is an MEP so is unlikely to be in the vicinity of Kildare Street tomorrow! 

(Incidentally, I assume that you meant Senator Victor *Boyhan*, rather than Senator Lynn *Boylan*!)


----------



## Purple (28 Nov 2022)

Groucho said:


> It'll be difficult for Ruth Coppinger to ask any hard questions seeing as she's no longer a member of the Oireachtas - DG!
> And Grace O'Sullivan is an MEP so is unlikely to be in the vicinity of Kildare Street tomorrow!
> 
> (Incidentally, I assume that you meant Senator Victor *Bohan*, rather than Senator Lynn *Boylan*!)


Sorry, I haven't looked at the membership for a while.


----------



## T McGibney (28 Nov 2022)

Purple said:


> Sorry, I haven't looked at the membership for a while.


Neither has he. The senator's name is actually Boyhan. 









						Victor Boyhan
					

26th Seanad



					www.oireachtas.ie


----------



## Groucho (28 Nov 2022)

T McGibney said:


> Neither has he. The senator's name is actually Boyhan.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ah, but the "y" is silent, as in donke.


----------



## Silversurfer (28 Nov 2022)

Brendan Burgess said:


> The RTB operates within the legislation it was set up under.
> 
> Complain to the politicians about the stupid laws, and not the agency charged with enforcing them.
> 
> Brendan


There is the spirit and the letter of the law. As so many have observed our rules seem to be mirroring mainland Europe. Could it be possible our political masters are taking their orders from there?


----------



## Purple (29 Nov 2022)

Silversurfer said:


> Could it be possible our political masters are taking their orders from there?


Unfortunately not. When they were, after we screwed up our economy and they had to come in and fix it, things really improved.


----------



## Leo (29 Nov 2022)

Silversurfer said:


> As so many have observed our rules seem to be mirroring mainland Europe. Could it be possible our political masters are taking their orders from there?


That's what this needs, a good conspiracy theory!


----------



## AlbacoreA (29 Nov 2022)

Silversurfer said:


> There is the spirit and the letter of the law. As so many have observed our rules seem to be mirroring mainland Europe. Could it be possible our political masters are taking their orders from there?



I think they are simply copying someone else homework. Also if you do what everyone else is doing it mitigates any blame and responsibility afterwards if it causes problems.


----------



## lff12 (29 Nov 2022)

Gervan said:


> Meanwhile this
> 
> 
> 
> ...


To be fair, those on rent-a-room scheme are literally the only landlords left receiving upfront tax exemptions. It is perfectly fair that they be expected to give something back in the form of reasonable regulatory oversight.
Landlords who rent out entire properties don't get 14k per year tax emptions and have a raft of terms and conditions to follow.


----------



## lff12 (29 Nov 2022)

triggs said:


> Interesting exchange at Oireachtas Housing Committee 15 Oct 2019.Chairman of RTB proferred an opinion that Landlords were leaving the market because of difficult Tenants and that Ireland had strong Tenancy rights.S.F housing spokesperson disagreed.He said Landlords were leaving because property prices had recovered to a point where Landlords could break even.A prescient observation and just a little premature in light of increasing prices.However my worry is this- is he implying that Landlords should not behave rationally in selling at an opportune time.If so is the concept of Rational Consumer to be suspended at the alter of some dystopian revision of conventional economic practice.I am afraid it is and do not see any point in complaining to some politicians who seem to occupy a Universe which is parallel to mine and who one day could assume office in our country


How ironic that the SF spokesperson is quite happy to acknowledge the truth in the quiet safety of a committee hearing almost nobody will actually ever notice.
He would be correct - landlords are leaving the market because most of them don't just expect a return from renting but also from capital gains (which incidentally, would be minute if you bought in 2006). It would be nice if he also admitted that in those cases there isn't a thing you can do to the market by intervention that would stop those landlords from selling voluntarily.


----------



## lff12 (29 Nov 2022)

Mocame said:


> Of course none of the critics have any idea of who will provide rented accommodation in the absence of these investors and with small landlords fleeing the market.  The stock answer is 'the state needs to be doing more' as if the state should be providing accommodation for trainee accountants or software engineers working in Google!


That's precisely what they do mean.
Normal people who were fortunate enough to buy their own comfortable homes on the open market from private developers and whom never had a single close family member live in social housing, are being gaslit to the point where they actually believe the odd idea that a state that has never managed to provision anything with 100% effectiveness is somehow going to magically do a better job of delivering housing for everyone of any financial status or life stage better than the current mix of mainly private market with a small amount of public provisioning can do.


----------



## NoRegretsCoyote (12 Dec 2022)

The Committee hearing transcript is here. It's 45 pages but some quick highlights



> We will now look at measures taken by the RTB to help the situation. Clearly, complex legislation and rules can give rise to confusion or to a risk of inadvertent non-compliance. *Having a clear and streamlined legislative framework in place would make it easier for property owners and tenants to understand and comply with their responsibilities, which would have a positive impact on the sector overall. *There would also be benefits for the RTB in terms of process improvement and reduced administrative overheads. The RTB will engage further with the Department in 2023 on the case for reform of the Residential Tenancies Act.





> In 2023, the data analysis and reporting capabilities of the RTB will improve significantly as a result of the introduction of annual registration in April 2022 and of our new tenancy registration system in November last year. *We acknowledge that the new registration system has created difficulties for some property owners* and agents and we are working hard to address these. However, as we move towards the completion of the first cycle of annual registration in April next year, we remain confident that annual registration will provide the RTB with much greater visibility on rents for both existing and new tenancies.





> I will deal with the issue of the service quality from the RTB at the moment. There is no doubt that the current situation is a long way short of what one would regard as acceptable. We take it very seriously and are working very hard to remedy it. I have been with the RTB for the last ten months. *Coming into the role, I have discovered that our systems and processes are not working well and people are finding it difficult to deal with the RTB. *Unfortunately, that is a fact. This is despite the work of many highly committed predecessors of mine over the years






> The RTB has undergone a lot of change over the last four years and there was the pandemic as well. I am not using any of that as a get-out clause. I simply want to illustrate the difficulties that arise for small public bodies and the RTB is a small public body trying to deal with quite a complex area of administration using complex legal provisions. I can say that from my own experience, as someone who does not come from this background but from a different area of social regulation. *Coming to terms with the rules and provisions of the Residential Tenancies Act and the way in which they have changed over the last five years is certainly a significant challenge for me, as it is for many people in the sector*





> The theory is that you are selling into an owner-occupied market so the price will be higher. Whether or not it is a fact, certainly it is a fear that landlords have and they prefer to get the tenant out and sell the property with vacant possession. A comparison is often made with the commercial market in this area. *That is a false comparison because if you are selling a commercial property, the quality of the tenant paying the rent is an issue for the entire investment. If you are buying an investment which is a property with a tenant, then you can check their accounts and so on*


----------



## AlbacoreA (13 Dec 2022)

The RTB has long been unfit for purpose with overly bureaucratic process and systems.


----------



## AlbacoreA (13 Dec 2022)

Also it's the banks giving the mortgage which often stipulate (afaik) the vacant procession. It's not solely a seller's preference.


----------

