# How to check if company is registered for VAT



## pbyrne

Hi,

We are looking at getting some work done by a builder and have been quoted a price including VAT at 13.5%. I would like to confirm that this builder actually is registered for VAT so that he is not pocketing the money for himself - and to confirm he is no a chancer!

I know the following at the moment:

(1) Company correspondence is on headed notepaper with his company name (eg: Expert Building Services)

(2) Correspondence has a footer saying "Registered Office .... , .... , ....."

HOWEVER when I try to lookup the company and the persons name on the CRO website it is not registered there. I know by the way that is not the same as registering for VAT.

So my assumption now would be that the builder is trading as a Sole Trader - how can I check whether the Sole Trader is registered for VAT? Ring Revenue is the obvious answer I know - any others?

Cheers,

pbyrne


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## mathepac

Type the country and VAT number in here to check : http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/vies/vieshome.do


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## pbyrne

Hi,

Thanks for that reply - unfortunately at the moment I don't have the VAT number from the builder. (I thought they were obliged by law to supply it on all correspondence but that might be the company number I am thinking of).

pbyrne


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## ubiquitous

pbyrne said:


> (I thought they were obliged by law to supply it on all correspondence


No



> but that might be the company number I am thinking of).


Not for a sole trader or partnership (ie if there is no "Ltd" on their name)


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## DavyJones

Just because they have a vat number doesn't mean that they are not chancers. If I was OP i would be more concerned on the quailty and finish of their work as opposed to if they keep good books. have they been recommended to you?


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## pbyrne

Hi Davy,

Agree totally that good book-keeping is not an indicator of quality of work - that wasn't really what I was thinking about. I'm sure the work will be fine - it is the payment of VAT that is the question.

I was really just trying to figure out how I can verify that when I am being asked to pay VAT that the VAT is actually going to Revenue rather than to the builder.

On this board there is alot of talk about getting receipts and paying VAT etc - I've absolutely no problem with that once I know it is being handled correctly.

pbyrne.


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## bertie1

I would be more interested in the quality of the work if it was my house and I was going to live with it for the next 30 years,  the vat issue is one between the builder & the revenue commissioner


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## pbyrne

Hi Bertie,

I agree that the quality of the work is very important.

My question is not really about quality of work - it is around how the householder can verify that the VAT they are paying is actually due to be paid. In other words if the builder is charging it to you can you be sure that you are not being overcharged by 13.5%. As I understand it VAT would be charged in cases as the amount of work performed by the builder would put them in the VAT registration bracket - if that it the case, how can the householder ensure that their hard-earned cash for VAT is not being pocketed by the builder.

pbyrne


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## Simeon

How can you insure that he pays income tax? How can you be sure that the last pair of shoes you bought were Vatted? I think you're getting a bit obsessive.


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## Scaper

pbyrne said:


> Hi,
> 
> We are looking at getting some work done by a builder and have been quoted a price including VAT at 13.5%. I would like to confirm that this builder actually is registered for VAT so that he is not pocketing the money for himself - and to confirm he is no a chancer!
> 
> I know the following at the moment:
> 
> (1) Company correspondence is on headed notepaper with his company name (eg: Expert Building Services)
> 
> (2) Correspondence has a footer saying "Registered Office .... , .... , ....."
> 
> HOWEVER when I try to lookup the company and the persons name on the CRO website it is not registered there. I know by the way that is not the same as registering for VAT.
> 
> So my assumption now would be that the builder is trading as a Sole Trader - how can I check whether the Sole Trader is registered for VAT? Ring Revenue is the obvious answer I know - any others?
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> pbyrne


 
Your concerns are understandable but in reality I doubt if such fraudulent activity would be common because it is a very serious matter to fool around with VAT charges/payments.

But for peace of mind if the builder provided is registered for VAT purposes, his written quote should clearly state the VAT rate, the VAT amount as well as his VAT Nr. You can subsequently check with the Revenue (VAT) if the VAT Nr is valid etc.

All invoices should also clearly state the VAT rate(s), amount(s) and VAT Nr.

It is a very serious offence for any vendor to charge any customers VAT if not registered for VAT purposes and/also to fail to make and return undervalued etc VAT payments to Collector General.


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## pbyrne

Scaper said:


> Your concerns are understandable but in reality I doubt if such fraudulent activity would be common because it is a very serious matter to fool around with VAT charges/payments.
> 
> But for peace of mind if the builder provided is registered for VAT purposes, his written quote should clearly state the VAT rate, the VAT amount as well as his VAT Nr. You can subsequently check with the Revenue (VAT) if the VAT Nr is valid etc.
> 
> All invoices should also clearly state the VAT rate(s), amount(s) and VAT Nr.
> 
> It is a very serious offence for any vendor to charge any customers VAT if not registered for VAT purposes and/also to fail to make and return undervalued etc VAT payments to Collector General.



Hi Scraper,

Thank you for answering the original question. It would appear that I might need to follow up on this with the builder as on the quotation he has provided the vat inclusive figure, stated that VAT will be charged at 13.5% - BUT no mention of his VAT number. 

I would definitely expect to see the VAT number on the receipt but wanted to figure out before the work gets done and I start to pay what the situation is. 

pbyrne


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## ubiquitous

If the builder has been established for any reasonable length of time, (ie longer than a month or two) you can take it as certain that he is vat-registered. The Revenue would simply not tolerate any builder operating on his own account or as a subcontractor without registering for  VAT - unless there is very good reason why they are satisfied that he is under the turnover threshold. As far as you are concerned, this is a non-issue. As the other poster said, at this stage, you should be more interested in the quality of their work, and the exact terms and conditions of their pricing than trying to do the Revenue's work for them. If they fail to give you a proper VAT invoice on completion of the work, you can report this to the Revenue at that stage if you feel like it, so there is no need to concern yourself about this particular point at this stage.


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## Scaper

ubiquitous said:


> If the builder has been established for any reasonable length of time, (ie longer than a month or two) you can take it as certain that he is vat-registered. The Revenue would simply not tolerate any builder operating on his own account or as a subcontractor without registering for VAT - unless there is very good reason why they are satisfied that he is under the turnover threshold. As far as you are concerned, this is a non-issue. As the other poster said, at this stage, you should be more interested in the quality of their work, and the exact terms and conditions of their pricing than trying to do the Revenue's work for them. If they fail to give you a proper VAT invoice on completion of the work, you can report this to the Revenue at that stage if you feel like it, so there is no need to concern yourself about this particular point at this stage.


 
If a builder fails to provide clarity with potential costs it is more likely going to be more to difficult to resolve any disputes over actual costs. Surely it is a straightforward task for any contractor to itemise all costs and show other charges such as VAT, rate and amounts etc separately. 
Where a builder provides a prospective customer with a quote with an inclusive figure of VAT and it transpires that the builder is not VAT registered than in such circumstances the prospective customer should report builder to the revenue. It is difficult though not impossible to imagine why a builder would not be registered for VAT. Also there have also been cases where registered companies including builders have made underpayments of VAT and PAYE etc etc to the Revenue.

You would also agree that we all have responsibility to help authorities identify and punish any instance of where fraud, malpractice etc occurs.


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## Rightly dun

ubiquitous said:


> If the builder has been established for any reasonable length of time, (ie longer than a month or two) you can take it as certain that he is vat-registered. The Revenue would simply not tolerate any builder operating on his own account or as a subcontractor without registering for VAT - unless there is very good reason why they are satisfied that he is under the turnover threshold. As far as you are concerned, this is a non-issue. As the other poster said, at this stage, you should be more interested in the quality of their work, and the exact terms and conditions of their pricing than trying to do the Revenue's work for them. If they fail to give you a proper VAT invoice on completion of the work, you can report this to the Revenue at that stage if you feel like it, so there is no need to concern yourself about this particular point at this stage.


 I am sorry to say but revenue would have no idea that this builder or any other business was in operation unless someone told them about it. I know many people who have being operating for many years and not only do they not pay vat they dont pay tax. If you want to know if the builder is registered ring revenue yourself and ask them.


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## mathepac

Scaper said:


> Your concerns are understandable but in reality I doubt if such fraudulent activity would be common because it is a very serious matter to fool around with VAT charges/payments...


I hate to disillusion you Scaper, but this kind of fraudulent activity is actually VERY common, hence the announcement in the not too distant past by the Revenue that their investigation's branch would be raising the level of investigation and enforcement in the construction industry, regarding registration, returns, sub-contractor vs employee, etc.

To OP pbyrne I would suggest that unless the builder can :

a) give good references regarding jobs completed on-time, within budget, to a level of quality acceptable to past clients and
b) can produce appropriate insurance certificates and
c) can prove compliance with health and safety guidelines and
d) can allay your concerns regarding the situation with VAT

then thank him for his quotation and find another builder.

I have no wish to appear to be teaching my granny to suck eggs, but you could save yourself a barrow-load of troubles.


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## Simeon

Why worry whether the builder pays on the VAT? You've done your bit in paying it ........ so you're in the clear. You'll finish up having a breakdown if you take other peoples (the Revenue) tasks on yourself. Mr Freud may have something to say about your reasoning.


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## ubiquitous

Scaper said:


> If a builder fails to provide clarity with potential costs it is more likely going to be more to difficult to resolve any disputes over actual costs. Surely it is a straightforward task for any contractor to itemise all costs and show other charges such as VAT, rate and amounts etc separately.
> Where a builder provides a prospective customer with a quote with an inclusive figure of VAT and it transpires that the builder is not VAT registered than in such circumstances the prospective customer should report builder to the revenue. It is difficult though not impossible to imagine why a builder would not be registered for VAT. Also there have also been cases where registered companies including builders have made underpayments of VAT and PAYE etc etc to the Revenue.
> 
> You would also agree that we all have responsibility to help authorities identify and punish any instance of where fraud, malpractice etc occurs.


Did you bother reading my post at all before you chose to reply? Read it again, and you will see that my post covered pretty much all the points you raise above.Btw, it makes no difference whether a quote is outlined on a "VAT inclusive" or "plus VAT" basis, once this is clearly demonstrated on the quote, as it was in this case. When dealing with non-registered customers, most trades quotes will be quoted on a VAT inclusive basis.


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## pbyrne

ubiquitous said:


> Btw, it makes no difference whether a quote is outlined on a "VAT inclusive" or "plus VAT" basis, once this is clearly demonstrated on the quote, as it was in this case. When dealing with non-registered customers, most trades quotes will be quoted on a VAT inclusive basis.



Hi ubiquitous,

Thanks for that - seems then that not quoting the VAT number on the quote is a non-issue - once it is on the receipt I am satisfied that everything is in order. 

As a few people have said - if I paid over the VAT and then got a receipt with no VAT number or a bogus VAT number then I can hand it over to revenue to follow up on. I suppose if I was determined enough I could also pursue a claim against the builder to refund that money also.

Final question on this if yez don't mind - should I really be getting a quote with the labour and materials broken down separately. While taxing myself thinking about this whole VAT question I realised that I am probably being charged VAT on a figure that includes materials, on which the builder will have paid and reclaim VAT already. 

So in my example the job might cost say 30k inc. VAT, of which materials are 9k. So I am paying additional VAT on 9k @ 13.5%? The builder will be able to reclaim the VAT on that 9k so it goes into his business as profit on the job also?

pbyrne


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## ubiquitous

pbyrne said:


> Final question on this if yez don't mind - should I really be getting a quote with the labour and materials broken down separately. While taxing myself thinking about this whole VAT question I realised that I am probably being charged VAT on a figure that includes materials, on which the builder will have paid and reclaim VAT already.
> 
> So in my example the job might cost say 30k inc. VAT, of which materials are 9k. So I am paying additional VAT on 9k @ 13.5%? The builder will be able to reclaim the VAT on that 9k so it goes into his business as profit on the job also?



This is not a good idea from your viewpoint. (btw I don't understand your reasoning that VAT on materials represents additional profit for the builder - this isn't the case as the entire VAT charge must be passed on to Revenue).

The builder (and all traders) MUST charge VAT on labour and materials. Normally a rate of 13.5% is applied on the total (there are exceptions to this principle, but these are of no concern to you). If their invoice separates the cost of labour and materials, then they must charge you VAT at 13.5% on the cost of the labour and 21% on the cost of the materials. This means that the cost of the materials element of the job will increase by 7.5%.


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## Complainer

The VAT number must be on the invoice (which you will get before you make a payment). Don't wait until you get a receipt to check.


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## RuthieNurse

my advice is if he's charging Vat then pay by cheque that way all monies are tracable from account to account.. if you've problems later then revenue can chase it up and trace the cheque and the builder... your covered either way... from tracking down your builder to making sure your VAT goes to revenue and not in his pocket..


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## headache

Hi - it would be highly unlikely that your builder is not registered for VAT as they limit for supply of services is E35,000.  These days it has become increasingly difficult for traders to evade taxes. If a trader works as a sub-contractor to another builder or holds a credit account with a builder supplier, then their name will cross an inspector's desk at some point.  If your builder holds a bank account, the branch manager will request a set of accounts each year to be held on file.
With regard to your question on the rate charged on materials, I have never seen a builder charge at 21% (and I see a lot of invoices in my job) as the two thirds rule generally applies and Revenue have never disputed builders charging 13.5%.
All VAT invoices must show the traders and customer details and show the VAT registration number.  I have never seen it stated anywhere that a VAT reg should be shown on any other headed paper.  It is not necessary for a trader to provide a VAT invoice to an unregistered trader but most do.  This has been confirmed to me by an inspector at a client's audit.  She told him that as he mostly dealt with private customers there was no need to issue VAT invoices and that receipts would suffice.  His receipts do show his VAT number but not a breakdown of the rate.
Hope this (probably long winded) reply helps.  Although, to be honest, if I were in your position and didn't trust this builder on this issue I don't know why you would trust him on anything else.


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