# Govt to buy out Toll bridge?



## Howitzer (31 Jul 2006)

It seems as if one of the major "vote buying" planks of the next budget will be to buy out the contract on the West Link toll bridge from NTR. Figures in the region of 600 million have been bandied about. This seems like an incredibly good deal for NTR and not such a good one for us the Irish tax payer. Sure for that money you could get yourself 2 entire PPARS software applications!

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=184&si=1662770&issue_id=14435


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## CelloPoint (31 Jul 2006)

Aren't there plans to install 6 more toll plazas on the national road network? We'll never learn.


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## Humpback (31 Jul 2006)

CelloPoint said:
			
		

> Aren't there plans to install 6 more toll plazas on the national road network? We'll never learn.


 
Yet again, someone falling into the Shane Ross/Eamon Dunphy trap of believing that the toll bridge is the cause of congestion on the M50. Why is it that people believe a former economist and a former footballer (neither of whom probably use the M50 at peak times when there's the real problems) than to examine the problems logically for themselves.

If anyone has used the toll plazas on the M1 and M4, you'll see no congestion there at all in and around the toll plazas.

The problem on the M50 is huge amounts of traffic hindered by poor road planning and junction management at each junction. If you remove the toll plaza, that will do nothing for the congestion on the M50. The causes of the problems, the junctions, are all still there.

The M1/M50 roundabout will still be the same. The Naas road exit will still cause backlogs. The Tallaght/Ballymount exits will still see congestion and backlogs. The Leopardstown exit will still see large backlogs of traffic heading into Sandyford.

These are all major problem areas on the M50, and none of them are caused by the toll bridge.

If people fall for Berties sleight of hand here... sorry, *when* people fall for it, it'll be yet another sorry electoral day for this country. But by then, the country will be €600m or whatever poorer, we'll still have traffic problems on the M50, but Bertie and co will be back in power, and won't care a jot.


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## shnaek (31 Jul 2006)

Why not have a couple of toll free days? That would provide proof as to whether it was responsible for congestion or not.


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## CelloPoint (31 Jul 2006)

shnaek said:
			
		

> Why not have a couple of toll free days? That would provide proof as to whether it was responsible for congestion or not.



Good idea. Bank holiday Monday next would be a nice gift to the citizens of Ireland.


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## Glenbhoy (31 Jul 2006)

> If people fall for Berties sleight of hand here... sorry, *when* people fall for it, it'll be yet another sorry electoral day for this country.


Agree with your sentiments, but we should remember that this was a Sindo story on a slow week in the middle of the summer.


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## Humpback (31 Jul 2006)

CelloPoint said:
			
		

> Good idea. Bank holiday Monday next would be a nice gift to the citizens of Ireland.


 
Yes, because traffic on a bank holiday Monday in the middle of summer holidays will be totally representative of a regular morning's rush hour.


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## elefantfresh (31 Jul 2006)

sounds like something they'd do Ronan!


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## polaris (1 Aug 2006)

A departed poster on this site, DaltonR, will be happy to hear this!


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## autumnleaf (1 Aug 2006)

How far would E600m go towards:
- Expanding and improving the current road system?
- Introducing park-and-ride facilities?
- Connecting the Luas lines to each other?
- Building a light rail connection from Dublin city centre to Dublin airport? (We are apparently among the richest countries on earth and we have no reliable public transport connection between our _capital city_ and our _major airport_. Just think about that for a moment.)


And maybe even a transport plan for large cities outside Dublin? Or do we wait until they become as clogged as the capital?


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## CharlieC (2 Aug 2006)

CelloPoint said:
			
		

> Good idea. Bank holiday Monday next would be a nice gift to the citizens of Ireland.


 
Last year Newstalk ran a competition where the winner wanted to pay 1k to let cars go through the M50 toll. 
You would have thought that they would have lifted ALL the barriers until the 1k was reached. 
No they designated one lane and the barrier had to come up/down for each car.  

The toll causes conjestion just as much as the junctions


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## conor_mc (3 Aug 2006)

autumnleaf said:
			
		

> How far would E600m go towards:
> - Expanding and improving the current road system?


 
For €600m you could probably build an identical bridge right next to the existing one and give drivers the option - we'll see how much NTR will want to hang on to their albatross then!!!  

ronan_d_john - as a regular M50 user, I don't see buying out the bridge as the panacea for all of our M50 woes, but This post will be deleted if not edited immediately, does it irk me to pay for the privilege of sitting in that traffic!


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## Purple (3 Aug 2006)

> And maybe even a transport plan for large cities outside Dublin?


 Dublin is not a large city. Have I missed something? Has a new one million plus urban area sprouted up somewhere in the country?

I agree with RDJ 100% about the Dumphy/ Ross line of bull. I use the M50 every day and the toll is not the problem.


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## bearishbull (3 Aug 2006)

If the contract doesnt prevent it,i think the governement should build a competing bridge or a tunnel , its only 400metres wide so a tunnel wouldnt be that expensive and would be a way of bargaining ntr down.


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## room305 (3 Aug 2006)

Purple said:
			
		

> I agree with RDJ 100% about the Dumphy/ Ross line of bull. I use the M50 every day and the toll is not trhe problem.



I think the toll is the problem, however it is very hard to argue either side without seeing how the M50 performs when the toll is removed. I certainly wouldn't bet €600M on my being right.

Why not pay NTR to remove the barriers for a week or two and see what happens? NTR has steadfastly resisted such offers which leads me to believe they think the toll bridge is a congestion issue.

Presumably what FF will do is _announce_ they will buy out the toll shortly after the election. People will vote for them assuming their problems will be solved and Ahern won't care either because his objective of securing a 3rd term will have been achieved.


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## Purple (3 Aug 2006)

How to you dig a tunnel over a valley?
The toll will stay whomever owns it and we, the people, get most of the money anyway so why buy it?


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## Humpback (3 Aug 2006)

conor_mc said:
			
		

> ronan_d_john - as a regular M50 user, I don't see buying out the bridge as the panacea for all of our M50 woes, but This post will be deleted if not edited immediately, does it irk me to pay for the privilege of sitting in that traffic!


 
Well, technically, you're paying for the privelage of driving across the bridge, and most of the time, that's fairly free moving. You're paying your taxes to sit in the traffic on the rest of the M50 .



			
				conor_mc said:
			
		

> For €600m you could probably build an identical bridge right next to the existing one and give drivers the option - we'll see how much NTR will want to hang on to their albatross then!!!!


 


			
				bearishbull said:
			
		

> i think the governement should build a competing bridge or a tunnel , its only 400metres wide so a tunnel wouldnt be that expensive and would be a way of bargaining ntr down.


 
This eventuality is prevented apparently in the contract for the original bridge. NTR were obviously a lot more forward thinking than the muppets who signed on our behalves.



			
				room305 said:
			
		

> I think the toll is the problem,


 
Do you use the M50? Drive southbound on a proper commuting morning (not these days) and experience the backlogs at Naas Road exit, Tallaght exit, Ballymount exit, and the Leopardstown/Sandyford exit? The toll bridge is behind you, yet the traffic is manic on those junctions at peak times.


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## jem (3 Aug 2006)

would be a waste of money, the cost of the toll is cheep compaired to france etc, doesn't add to dealys much, the problem was the m50 ws designed in the 60's and traffic ect has grown far far far more than could ever have been expected.


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## Guest126 (3 Aug 2006)

Cheap compared to France, I presume that is a joke 

I regularly use French motorways, about €10 for a 400 km 3 lane motorway.

And if you go on a short trip it is about €1 for a superb motorway to bypass a city (say 10 km or thereabouts).

What is the toll bridge, about 500m is it?


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## shnaek (3 Aug 2006)

I dislike the toll, but I would feel a lot worse if €600million was spent to get rid of it. 
I agree with Room305 - it's political gamesmanship at the moment. And I think it will be unlikely to happen. Far more likely would be some sort of deal where NTR get to toll an already paid for section of motorway - thus it will seem like we haven't paid them €600million. 
And 'seeming' to solve problems is what government is all about.


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## room305 (3 Aug 2006)

ronan_d_john said:
			
		

> Do you use the M50? Drive southbound on a proper commuting morning (not these days) and experience the backlogs at Naas Road exit, Tallaght exit, Ballymount exit, and the Leopardstown/Sandyford exit? The toll bridge is behind you, yet the traffic is manic on those junctions at peak times.



I use it frequently still and for a period of more than six months I used it every day. There will of course still be problems at the access roads at peak times if you remove the toll booth. However, removing a great big roadblock in the middle of the M50 will still be beneficial.

If you spend 1 hour queuing at the toll booth and half an hour queuing at an exit ramp it does not necessarily follow that you will then spend an hour and a half at the exit ramp if you remove the toll booth. Not everyone queuing at the booth will be using the same exit ramp. It may increase the line at the exit ramp slightly but I think overall there would be a huge improvement.

That said, it is all conjecture until we can actually test either hypotheses. It seems close to madness that we would just gamble €600M on buying out NTR and hope that solves the problem.


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## bearishbull (3 Aug 2006)

Either way it will do no harm to open the tolls for a week during peak hours in september (paid for by governement) to study the m50 traffic. i've read before how a small delay in on part of a road network can have exxagerated effects elsewhere.there should be no intrusive tolls on the short road that is the m50,maybe electronic tolls using cameras could be used once they dont slow traffic flow.


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## Howitzer (3 Aug 2006)

bearishbull said:
			
		

> i've read before how a small delay in on part of a road network can have exxagerated effects elsewhere.there should be no intrusive tolls on the short road that is the m50,maybe electronic tolls using cameras could be used once they dont slow traffic flow.


 
True, everyone knows how rubberneckers can cause crazy tailbacks for no apparent reason.


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## thewatcher (3 Aug 2006)

To say the toll bridge does not cause congestion is just plain rubbish,the length of time it takes a 40ft truck to slow down hand over the toll and then get going again is huge.


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## RainyDay (3 Aug 2006)

If the physical operation of paying the toll is such a huge problem, why don't more drivers take up the Eazypass option - it seems like a small minority use this at present.


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## Purple (4 Aug 2006)

Apparently it’s not illegal not to pay the toll so they can’t have barrier free lanes.
I read in the IT a while back that there was legislation pending to change this. Once this is in place the plan was to move to open lanes. 
A friend from New York told me that if you drove up to their equivalent of the easy pass lane (their one has no barrier), and had no easy pass, you still had to drive through. There is no window to knock on etc. A camera reads your plates and you are sent a $100 fine in the post. Not paying the fine can land you in prison. I think that’s a great idea.  

Delays are not in the interest of NTR as they want to make as much money as they can so if they can get us through faster they will.


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## thewatcher (4 Aug 2006)

Purple said:
			
		

> Apparently it’s not illegal not to pay the toll so they can’t have barrier free lanes.
> I read in the IT a while back that there was legislation pending to change this. Once this is in place the plan was to move to open lanes.
> A friend from New York told me that if you drove up to their equivalent of the easy pass lane (their one has no barrier), and had no easy pass, you still had to drive through. There is no window to knock on etc. A camera reads your plates and you are sent a $100 fine in the post. Not paying the fine can land you in prison. I think that’s a great idea.
> 
> Delays are not in the interest of NTR as they want to make as much money as they can so if they can get us through faster they will.


 
I thought NTR's revenue was capped and the government got everything over a certain level,which is probably why NTR have no interest in the investment required for barrier free tolling !.


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## sonnyikea (4 Aug 2006)

Reading this with interest. Does anyone think that with the level of VRT and the cost of road tax that toll roads in this country are unacceptable? I would not mind paying to use a road on a per usage basis if road tax was at a reasonable level. As it is I have trouble seeing where the road tax money is being spent.

Report on the news there that there are delays at the toll bridge.......is everyone that thinks the toll bridge isn't a bottleneck sure they are correct? If you have a road that has a 120km/h speed limit and you put an obstruction on it that means every vehicle, bar the eazypass, has to stop of course it is going to cause delays.


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## CelloPoint (4 Aug 2006)

sonnyikea said:
			
		

> Reading this with interest. Does anyone think that with the level of VRT and the cost of road tax that toll roads in this country are unacceptable? I would not mind paying to use a road on a per usage basis if road tax was at a reasonable level. As it is I have trouble seeing where the road tax money is being spent.
> 
> Report on the news there that there are delays at the toll bridge.......is everyone that thinks the toll bridge isn't a bottleneck sure they are correct? If you have a road that has a 120km/h speed limit and you put an obstruction on it that means every vehicle, bar the eazypass, has to stop of course it is going to cause delays.



2nd richest country in the world (allegedly), 3rd-world infrastructure.

This is 20-06 and I just don't understand why there's no motorway to Galway, Cork, Waterford, Belfast...

We've had our chance at making something out of this country and we've blown it. IMHO, the economic storm clouds loom and the whole country is just one big mess that will never be right.


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## Purple (4 Aug 2006)

We might have the second highest income but we are not the second richest.
Here’s a comparison; your neighbour earned €60’000 a year for 20 years and you earned €40’000 over the same period. You both use your money equally wisely; have the same outgoings and save/ invest the rest in the same way.
Then you get a pay rise to €70’000. Does this make you richer than your neighbour or does it juts mean that at the moment you have more cash?


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## golden mean (14 Aug 2006)

Why is Eazypass such a cumbersome tool to use? I am fortunate enough not to have to use the tolls gates to get to work, but I do use them fairly regularly some months- other months not at all.

I would like to use Eazypass, to avail of the faster gate and to do my bit to speed up traffic flow. I would expect that NTR would like more people to do this too- fewer staff required on the bridge, good PR if they can speed up the flow, etc. Can anyone tell me then WHY there is a monthly fee for the "service" which applies whether you use the toll gate or not(and which the small print says they can increase at any time, something which they never remember to mention in any of their ad campaigns- surely deceptive, but I digress). What was wrong with the old tokens you could buy? They were handy!

I can only conclude that they are trying to dissuade occasional users (that might also be why when unsuspecting travellers from outside Dublin hit the m50 to the airport, there are not signs telling them what the toll is until they are right at the gate, but they do have a simple sign telling them to have the toll ready.)

Things are only going to get worse when all the port tunnel traffic is pushed out on the m50. I vote we start on a new outer ring road now.


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