# Rent Allowance - possible abuse of system



## DeeFox (9 Jan 2009)

I am trying to rent a three bed semi (on behalf of someone else) and I received a call today from a girl wanting to know if I would accept rent allowance.  I asked her to tell me about herself and she said she was a single parent with one child and was on benefits.  The house is advertised at €900 and so I asked her how much the rent allowance would cover and she said "around €750, but don't worry about that as I am going to sublet the other two rooms so you'll definetly get your rent every month".  I said I wouldn't be happy with that arrangement and left it at that.  
I've since been thinking that this would be really unfair if she did manage to find a landlord who didn't care what went on in the house as long as they got their money.  A quick look on daft shows that a bedroom in a house would cost around €350 in this area.  Is it really possible to abuse the system in this way?  Rent allowance must be costing the State a fortune and it annoys me to think that someone could be making a profit from it.


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## Caveat (9 Jan 2009)

Various forms of RA abuse is widespread as far as I can see - and am told.


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## truthseeker (9 Jan 2009)

Caveat said:


> Various forms of RA abuse is widespread as far as I can see - and am told.


 
Agreed.


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## Smashbox (9 Jan 2009)

Yep, it seems to happen everywhere


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## Complainer (10 Jan 2009)

Has anyone reported these widespread abuses to the authorities?


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## truthseeker (10 Jan 2009)

Complainer said:


> Has anyone reported these widespread abuses to the authorities?



Based on the information given in the first post there is not enough information to report someone to the authorities - and I think that most cases I hear about casually are the same - I am told enough detail to ascertain there is an abuse but no names, addresses etc...so nothing that could be reported.

From the first post, the person in question probably moved onto the next landlord until she found someone who would agree to the scheme - and someone agreeing to it is quite possibly also in a position that they do not want any undue attention from revenue or are unregistered etc... So they wont be reporting her either.


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## Complainer (11 Jan 2009)

truthseeker said:


> Based on the information given in the first post there is not enough information to report someone to the authorities - and I think that most cases I hear about casually are the same - I am told enough detail to ascertain there is an abuse but no names, addresses etc...so nothing that could be reported.
> 
> From the first post, the person in question probably moved onto the next landlord until she found someone who would agree to the scheme - and someone agreeing to it is quite possibly also in a position that they do not want any undue attention from revenue or are unregistered etc... So they wont be reporting her either.


What I'm really getting at is 'Is the abuse as widespread as these posts might have you believe'? If people have direct first-hand knowledge of abuse, they should report it. If they have 3rd-hand unreliable gossip, then perhaps they should be questioning the reliability of their sources.


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## Welfarite (14 Jan 2009)

It would be interesting to get the views of people on this site who are very familiar with the RS system (such as Gipimann). Personally, anecdotal evidence in my dealings with people suggest that, at the least, there is manipulation of the system by both tenants and landlords to allow RS be claimed (i.e. false rental amounts being declared so that they come under thresholds for awarding of RS). The advantges are obvious; the landlord is guarenteed his rent every week as the state is paying the bulk of it, the tenant does not have to pay rent above 13 euro per week from state benefits.


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## MrMan (14 Jan 2009)

Complainer said:


> What I'm really getting at is 'Is the abuse as widespread as these posts might have you believe'? If people have direct first-hand knowledge of abuse, they should report it. If they have 3rd-hand unreliable gossip, then perhaps they should be questioning the reliability of their sources.


 
I spoke to a high profile labour td about a person that she had actually given reference to and on that basis we had provided her with rental accommodation. the girl was getting €750 per month and after awhile she stopped paying rent so was effectively keeping rent allowance for personal spending. Because we had to give her her statutory notice for termination of contract she basically received €2,250 from the state to spend on herself whilst also availing of free accommodation. The TD didn't want to know anything about it when told and I was reliably informed that this girl was subsequently re-housed and in receipt of payment again. No rumours just fact, people screw the system every day and the people in charge don't want to know about it.


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## Purple (14 Jan 2009)

I know someone who was renting his house to his partner and child. She gets loan parents allowance and rent relief as well as assistance from the health board and StVDP. He lives in the same house and is in well paid full time employment. I know they were reported about 18 months ago but so far nothing has happened. The person who reported them works with homeless people, they said that the above abuse in very common.


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## sandrat (14 Jan 2009)

MrMan said:


> I spoke to a high profile labour td about a person that she had actually given reference to and on that basis we had provided her with rental accommodation. the girl was getting €750 per month and after awhile she stopped paying rent so was effectively keeping rent allowance for personal spending. Because we had to give her her statutory notice for termination of contract she basically received €2,250 from the state to spend on herself whilst also availing of free accommodation. The TD didn't want to know anything about it when told and I was reliably informed that this girl was subsequently re-housed and in receipt of payment again. No rumours just fact, people screw the system every day and the people in charge don't want to know about it.


 
My parents had a tenant who was getting rent allowance but the money was paid directly to them and not to the tenant


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## MrMan (14 Jan 2009)

It used to be the case but the tenants rights were deemed to be infringed so they were sent the money. It's not the same in all constituencies and afaik you can write to ask for the money to be sent direct to landlord.


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## gipimann (15 Jan 2009)

Welfarite said:


> It would be interesting to get the views of people on this site who are very familiar with the RS system (such as Gipimann). Personally, anecdotal evidence in my dealings with people suggest that, at the least, there is manipulation of the system by both tenants and landlords to allow RS be claimed (i.e. false rental amounts being declared so that they come under thresholds for awarding of RS). The advantges are obvious; the landlord is guarenteed his rent every week as the state is paying the bulk of it, the tenant does not have to pay rent above 13 euro per week from state benefits.


 
Anecdotal evidence from the Community Welfare Service also suggests some collusion between landlords and tenants, it's very difficult to prove.

The tenant does end up paying more than the minimum contribution however - the landlord charges the full rent, but the tenant receives rent supplement based on a lesser amount. 

For example tenant renting at 150 euro per week, max rent limit 115, rent declared to HSE at 115. Tenant gets 97 euro Rent Supplement, and must pay 53 euro per week (out of weekly income of 204.30), rather than the minimum contribution of 18 euro.


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## Complainer (17 Jan 2009)

Can we first of all clarify what we are talking about here. 

Rent allowance is a very old scheme limited to a small number of tenants affected by decontrol of rents - see http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Publications/SW58/Pages/2Whocanqualify.aspx

I suspend that many of the comments about 'rent allowance' on this thread actually relate to a different scheme - rent supplement - see http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Publications/SW58/Pages/2Whocanqualify.aspx

I don't see anything about references (from a TD or otherwise) being required for rent supplement, so I'm a bit confused by the posts from MrMan. Perhaps MrMan could clarify who the 'we' is in his posts, and what specific scheme he is referring to. Maybe then we could have a useful discussion...


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## MrMan (19 Jan 2009)

When lettings are being done references are required usually from work and previous landlord, the girl in question had no work or landlord reference as she had been living in a council house previously before it burned down. The TD rand me to say that this woman and her child needed accommodation and they were fine upstanding people fallen on hard times etc etc. She was in receipt of rent allowance to the full sum of the monthly rent. i don't think the issue here is what the scheme is called, it is state money (our money) and is being constantly abused, that is the issue.


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## truthseeker (19 Jan 2009)

MrMan said:


> i don't think the issue here is what the scheme is called, it is state money (our money) and is being constantly abused, that is the issue.


 
I agree.
I am aware of a street beside my home where there are 22 properties, all of them social housing. I have a friend who lives on the street. She tells me that out of the 22 houses, 16 of them are screwing the system one way or another, either by working for cash and not declaring it, or (by far the most popular), girls who have the house based on the fact they are a single parent but have a boyfriend/partner living in the house with them full time (from the day they moved in) - so they also receive more per child from the state than they would if they declared the working partners income and pay less in rent to the council.


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## Complainer (19 Jan 2009)

MrMan said:


> When lettings are being done references are required usually from work and previous landlord, the girl in question had no work or landlord reference as she had been living in a council house previously before it burned down. The TD rand me to say that this woman and her child needed accommodation and they were fine upstanding people fallen on hard times etc etc. She was in receipt of rent allowance to the full sum of the monthly rent. i don't think the issue here is what the scheme is called, it is state money (our money) and is being constantly abused, that is the issue.



I'm still very confused by your stories. Who is the 'we' in this story? Is it the HSE? or the local authority? or the landlord? Who requires the references?


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## Mommah (20 Jan 2009)

Exaggeration of welfare abuse always makes me angry/defensive.

My sister is in receipt of rent supplement/allowance/whatever-you-call-it.

She suffers from a chronic mental illness that renders her unemloyable.
She looks normal, acts normal and is great company....but she doesn't have the concentration required to hold down a job.

When she declared to prospective landlords that she was in receipt of RA generally she didn't hear from them again. Unless of course they were renting out a flea-pit, complete with resident druggies/wino existing occupants. She lived in these flea-pits for a year or two, until there was a scary situation with one of the other tenants.(wino)

I convinced my hubby to let her become one of our tenants. We take a 30% hit on the rent, but she gets to live in a safe house with decent room-mates. The social welfare know that I am her landlady.

As for being a single mother trying to afford accommadation in Dublin within the RA guidelines...it is not possible.


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## Bronte (20 Jan 2009)

truthseeker said:


> I agree.
> girls who have the house based on the fact they are a single parent but have a boyfriend/partner living in the house with them full time (from the day they moved in) - so they also receive more per child from the state than they would if they declared the working partners income and pay less in rent to the council.


 
There has been a change in policy in the UK on cohabitating partners I believe.  This was due to the fact that 'penalising' people who cohabit results in families splitting up and there is then a social cost to this.  Cohabitating partners do not get any of the benefits of taxation that married people receive.  Until this is changed the scenario you outlined is unlikely to change.


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## Bronte (20 Jan 2009)

gipimann said:


> For example tenant renting at 150 euro per week, max rent limit 115, rent declared to HSE at 115. Tenant gets 97 euro Rent Supplement, and must pay 53 euro per week (out of weekly income of 204.30), rather than the minimum contribution of 18 euro.


I'm at a loss to understand how the tenant is benefitting here if they are paying 53 euro instead of 18. Is it something to do with what another poster said on another thread that people are not allowed to rent property that is in excess of the limits of the HSE?

Also what is the benefit to the landlord, (other than having the property rented) they have to register the tenancy with the PRTB including the rent amount and they have to declare the amount received to revenue so this would be very messy indeed, from a landlord's perspective.


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## MrMan (20 Jan 2009)

Complainer said:


> I'm still very confused by your stories. Who is the 'we' in this story? Is it the HSE? or the local authority? or the landlord? Who requires the references?


 

I'm an Auctioneer, the we was an estate agency on behalf of a landlord, the reference was provided by a TD, although it was more of an appeal than a reference.


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## MrMan (20 Jan 2009)

Bronte said:


> I'm at a loss to understand how the tenant is benefitting here if they are paying 53 euro instead of 18. Is it something to do with what another poster said on another thread that people are not allowed to rent property that is in excess of the limits of the HSE?
> 
> Also what is the benefit to the landlord, (other than having the property rented) they have to register the tenancy with the PRTB including the rent amount and they have to declare the amount received to revenue so this would be very messy indeed, from a landlord's perspective.


 
Generally tenants will do it to get a bigger place (sublet rooms) or a better place than their allowance caters for but as far as I know they are not supposed to be adding to it over a certain amount. It is messy for a landlord but some are willing to do it where as others are starting to realise that it's not worth it.


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## Blossy (21 Jan 2009)

ok, i agree with alot of the posts on this thread especially the single parents, living with full time partners etc. in fact i know a number of couples that are young and only move in together because its so cheap and theya re out of parents homes. in respect to the rent ceilings, i personally many years ago, rented a house with my son, i received rent allowance and worked part time, i was honest with all my hours etc, but in order to live in a nice area, with nice schools etc and nice reputation, i told CWO that the rent was 650 instead of 850, and the landlord signed everything i needed ( sure he was getting an extra 200 cash a month), it meant i struggled alot to pay my rent but it was what i had to do, as on council lists i would be there for years. thankfully i have single purchased a house but at the time, although it was wrong to do, i felt safe and i didnt fall into the vicous cylcle of bein on benefits and not coming off them! i have numerous friends that all still claim benefits ,drive nice cars, rent houses fair enough, but have the large flat screen tvs and above an beyond all the mod cons. rent allowance fraud is extremely annoying and should be monitorred more closely, but at the same time, the ceilings need to be looked at. for example, for a decent home in a decent area the prices are alot higher than in disadvantaged areas! not all single mums should result in living here because they are no longer with the father no matter what the circumstances!


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## truthseeker (21 Jan 2009)

Blossy said:


> ok, i agree with alot of the posts on this thread especially the single parents, living with full time partners etc. in fact i know a number of couples that are young and only move in together because its so cheap and theya re out of parents homes. in respect to the rent ceilings, i personally many years ago, rented a house with my son, i received rent allowance and worked part time, i was honest with all my hours etc, but in order to live in a nice area, with nice schools etc and nice reputation, i told CWO that the rent was 650 instead of 850, and the landlord signed everything i needed ( sure he was getting an extra 200 cash a month), it meant i struggled alot to pay my rent but it was what i had to do, as on council lists i would be there for years. thankfully i have single purchased a house but at the time, although it was wrong to do, i felt safe and i didnt fall into the vicous cylcle of bein on benefits and not coming off them! i have numerous friends that all still claim benefits ,drive nice cars, rent houses fair enough, but have the large flat screen tvs and above an beyond all the mod cons. rent allowance fraud is extremely annoying and should be monitorred more closely, but at the same time, the ceilings need to be looked at. for example, for a decent home in a decent area the prices are alot higher than in disadvantaged areas! not all single mums should result in living here because they are no longer with the father no matter what the circumstances!


 
Blossy - I simultaneously agree and disagree with you on this. 
I totally understand that people want to live in better areas. But why should my taxes pay for this? I work hard to get the money to live in an area I want to live in (and in fact Id personally like to be living in a better one myself), but why should someone else get to work part time (which Id love to be able to afford to do!!!) and yet still live in a nice area on my taxes?


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## Complainer (21 Jan 2009)

MrMan said:


> I'm an Auctioneer, the we was an estate agency on behalf of a landlord, the reference was provided by a TD, although it was more of an appeal than a reference.


Now I'm starting to understand - so the reference was really a private matter between the renter, the TD and the landlord - nothing really to do with the rent allowance. 

I don't condone abuse of the system as outlined here, but I trust that those that attack abuse by renters will also attack tax evasion by landlords, which is something of an Irish tradition by now.


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## truthseeker (21 Jan 2009)

Complainer said:


> I trust that those that attack abuse by renters will also attack tax evasion by landlords, which is something of an Irish tradition by now.



Yes - I think any tax evasion is screwing the system so tax evasion by landlords is just as bad.


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## MrMan (22 Jan 2009)

Complainer said:


> Now I'm starting to understand - so the reference was really a private matter between the renter, the TD and the landlord - nothing really to do with the rent allowance.
> 
> I don't condone abuse of the system as outlined here, but I trust that those that attack abuse by renters will also attack tax evasion by landlords, which is something of an Irish tradition by now.


 
My reason for including the TD in my account of that experience was she gave us the thumbs up as to the character of a would be tenant because we wouldn't generally deal with rent allowance. When it went belly up and the tenant pocketed the money, and was ready to move on to the next premises, the TD wanted nothing to do with us, she wasn't outraged that public resources were being so blatantly abused or that the woman that she refered to us was going to have no punishment, she simply wanted no more to do with it. If that is the attitude of those at the top what good is even reporting abuses. The TD in question would be in opposition to the govt so its not just FF that turn a blind eye.


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## Blossy (22 Jan 2009)

truthseeker said:


> Blossy - I simultaneously agree and disagree with you on this.
> I totally understand that people want to live in better areas. But why should my taxes pay for this? I work hard to get the money to live in an area I want to live in (and in fact Id personally like to be living in a better one myself), but why should someone else get to work part time (which Id love to be able to afford to do!!!) and yet still live in a nice area on my taxes?


 
ok, not to get into an argument but i worked for ten year before i fell pregnant, so i think with the taxes i paid in those ten years i  deserved to live in a nice home/area rather than be shafted into a box flat because im was on social welfare payments, i also worked part time, paid ridiculus childcare rates and to pay the difference was my choice even tho the landlord at the time was getting away with paying the taxes. 

believe me it makes my blood boil when i see the sponges of the system and how they abuse the system, but its a vicious circle, why not stay sponging and have the nice house? i chose not to, and others too, i actually know of a woman who is claiming one parent and getting rent allowance and is getting so much and life is so comfortable that she rather name her children different surnames than to admit they all with the one father and come off the benefits! :0


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## truthseeker (22 Jan 2009)

Blossy said:


> ok, not to get into an argument but i worked for ten year before i fell pregnant, so i think with the taxes i paid in those ten years i deserved to live in a nice home/area rather than be shafted into a box flat because im was on social welfare payments, i also worked part time, paid ridiculus childcare rates and to pay the difference was my choice even tho the landlord at the time was getting away with paying the taxes.


 
Not arguing at all Blossy - just sharing opinions 
My view is that none of us has the 'right' to live in a nice area - its something that we (or I at least), manage to do by ongoing hard work.
I realise that people get into situations that they did not intend to get into - I dont think the situation is totally black and white. But if the state is paying my rent then I dont think I have the right to expect my choice of area to live in, I think that I would be grateful that the state is giving me the rent allowance because in another country I could be on the streets.



Blossy said:


> believe me it makes my blood boil when i see the sponges of the system and how they abuse the system, but its a vicious circle, why not stay sponging and have the nice house? i chose not to, and others too, i actually know of a woman who is claiming one parent and getting rent allowance and is getting so much and life is so comfortable that she rather name her children different surnames than to admit they all with the one father and come off the benefits! :0


 
I agree with all of the above.


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## gillarosa (22 Jan 2009)

Purple said:


> I know someone who was renting his house to his partner and child. She gets loan parents allowance and rent relief as well as assistance from the health board and StVDP. He lives in the same house and is in well paid full time employment. I know they were reported about 18 months ago but so far nothing has happened. The person who reported them works with homeless people, they said that the above abuse in very common.


 
Maybe if the person reported them again now it may be acted upon, changing times seem to have re-focussed DSFA back to detecting fraud. I can see how a person dealing with the Homeless would be incensed with this case, the total neck of them going to SVdeP also.


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## Complainer (22 Jan 2009)

MrMan said:


> My reason for including the TD in my account of that experience was she gave us the thumbs up as to the character of a would be tenant because we wouldn't generally deal with rent allowance. When it went belly up and the tenant pocketed the money, and was ready to move on to the next premises, the TD wanted nothing to do with us, she wasn't outraged that public resources were being so blatantly abused or that the woman that she refered to us was going to have no punishment, she simply wanted no more to do with it. If that is the attitude of those at the top what good is even reporting abuses. The TD in question would be in opposition to the govt so its not just FF that turn a blind eye.


What would you want/expect her to do? What would you do if a past employee that you had given a reference for went 'bad'?


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## Bronte (23 Jan 2009)

MrMan said:


> My reason for including the TD in my account of that experience was she gave us the thumbs up as to the character of a would be tenant because we wouldn't generally deal with rent allowance. When it went belly up and the tenant pocketed the money, and was ready to move on to the next premises, the TD wanted nothing to do with us, she wasn't outraged that public resources were being so blatantly abused or that the woman that she refered to us was going to have no punishment, she simply wanted no more to do with it. If that is the attitude of those at the top what good is even reporting abuses. The TD in question would be in opposition to the govt so its not just FF that turn a blind eye.


This is because all the TD is interested in is the vote and they don't care how they get it or who they have to trample on to get it.


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## Bronte (23 Jan 2009)

Blossy said:


> although it was wrong to do, I felt safe and I didn't fall into the vicious cycle of being on benefits and not coming off them! /quote]  Thanks Blossy for being so honest.  I believe it shows us a side of life that we hope never to have to experience.  You did what was best for your children and I completely understand why you didn't want to live in a certain area.  There are parts of Ireland where people cannot leave the house for fear of what the thugs in their area will do to them.  I know one woman who left a part of Limerick for a caravan in a field just to do the best for her kids.  I met another woman who had lived in a council estate in the UK and what she told me about it beggers belief.  I would rather have lived in a tent than live where she had.  This is not about nice areas and not so nice areas.
> 
> If the system leads to abuse there may be valid reasons that people do these things and that should be looked at by the government.  Sometimes government action leads to people abusing the system.  There is a thing called the vicious cycle of poverty to which people get sucked in.


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## MrMan (23 Jan 2009)

Complainer said:


> What would you want/expect her to do? What would you do if a past employee that you had given a reference for went 'bad'?


 
I would expect that she would say that she will not provide heartfelt references for this person in the future and more so that she would investigate the abuse of the system so that it may not be as likely to happen again. Are you ok with a TD saying 'it's nothing to do with me' when it has everything to do with her?


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## Welfarite (23 Jan 2009)

Bronte said:


> I'm at a loss to understand how the tenant is benefitting here if they are paying 53 euro instead of 18. Is it something to do with what another poster said on another thread that people are not allowed to rent property that is in excess of the limits of the HSE?
> 
> Also what is the benefit to the landlord, (other than having the property rented) they have to register the tenancy with the PRTB including the rent amount and they have to declare the amount received to revenue so this would be very messy indeed, from a landlord's perspective.


 

I don't think anyone mentioned anyone 'benefiting' from the example given. Manipulation of the system was what was being discussed.


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## Complainer (24 Jan 2009)

MrMan said:


> I would expect that she would say that she will not provide heartfelt references for this person in the future and more so that she would investigate the abuse of the system so that it may not be as likely to happen again. Are you ok with a TD saying 'it's nothing to do with me' when it has everything to do with her?


A reference is a reference. It's not a guarantee. Things can and will go wrong. How or if she deals with this person in the future is between the two of them. It is nothing to do with you. The TD may well have been keen to distance herself from your probable breach of data protection legislation in revealing information about the tenant to a 3rd party (the TD) without the tenant's permission.

In relation to the possibility of future abuse of the scheme, given that you've refused to identify the scheme in question, it really isn't possible to make any sensible comment about this.


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## Bronte (26 Jan 2009)

Welfarite said:


> I don't think anyone mentioned anyone 'benefiting' from the example given. Manipulation of the system was what was being discussed.


You are correct but I can't see why a landlord would do it unless there was a benefit to him.


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## Complainer (26 Jan 2009)

Bronte said:


> You are correct but I can't see why a landlord would do it unless there was a benefit to him.


Presumably the benefit to the landlord is getting the tenant in place, and becoming a steady income stream.


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## Bronte (27 Jan 2009)

Complainer said:


> Presumably the benefit to the landlord is getting the tenant in place, and becoming a steady income stream.


That is certainly a benefit which would be outweighed by having to lie on the PRTB form and from there to lying to revenue, this benefit cannot outweight the possible punishment down the line. Of course to a landlord outside the system it wouldn't matter they'll never get caught.


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## Complainer (27 Jan 2009)

Bronte said:


> Of course to a landlord outside the system it wouldn't matter they'll never get caught.


Until a disgruntled tenant decides to rat them out.


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