# Ulster Bank Loan Default - Won't Accept New Payment Proposal



## VED (25 May 2011)

I took out a loan with Ulster Bank in May 2008. The loan amount was €12,000 and the agreed repayments were around €254. Due to an error on their part the direct debit was not set up properly – and when this error was realised on my part, I contacted them to resolve it. It turned out that they had lost my loan contract and direct debit information and so asked me to sign a new loan agreement which I did – this was September 2008. The direct debit was botched again and no repayments were taken from my account. I again contacted them and asked for copies of all agreements and information and to see if the direct debit could be set up again. Despite a huge volume of letters and phone calls from both sides, they could not produce the information I requested.  I refused to make any payments until they could do so.
In early 2009, I was unfortunately let go from my job. It was a devastating time for me, like so many others and I never thought I would find myself in that position. I had no savings to help me pay off the loan and with a huge mortgage – my priority was to keep my home and negotiate with Ulster Bank to restructure payments. 
The whole administrative debacle that was the loan rumbled on – I informed Ulster Bank of the change in my circumstances and asked to restructure my payments to suit, they agreed to this, thankfully, but despite all my better efforts the negotiations were only completed in November 2009, where I agreed to pay back €70 per month, with 6 monthly reviews. I cannot tell you what a relief it was – as I had also discovered I was pregnant! Anyway, this agreement was accepted and renewed, at 6 monthly intervals up until April of this year. I received a letter eventually saying that they could not find my loan agreements and copies of personal documents I sent to them and despite calling to speak to someone in relation to that situation, nothing was ever resolved, I was completely fobbed off, the person I apparently needed to speak to was never there and also never responded to letters. 
Anyway, in April, I received what I now know is an automated letter asking for my income and expenditure details and what I was proposing. I was delighted to find out a couple of days after I received the letter from Ulster Bank that I had got a new part-time job which would become full-time in September. I wrote out my expected income on the form, saying that I could now increase my payments to €100, and also wrote a letter detailing that I would almost certainly be in position to start full repayments of €254 in September. 

Yesterday, I got another letter from Ulster Bank saying that they were disappointed that we could not come to a satisfactory agreement. I was confused as I thought the proposal I had sent to them would definitely be agreed to. I called the collections centre and was told that because the agreements I had with them had exceeded 18 months that I would not now be in a position to negotiate with them anymore – it is not their policy apparently. I explained the situation and said that if they gave me three months of paying back at €100 I would be able to start repaying the full amount. They said that they cannot enter into any further agreements with me and that I need to seek independent advice and that they would review it then. 
I am so frustrated with this. Firstly, I was never told that there was an 18 month limit on agreements and secondly, I know I will be able to start proper repayments in September – can they not give me some leeway? Surely it would take a couple of months to put another agreement in place through MABs or whatever? Any advice on what I can do here? 
So sorry for the long post - all replies appreciated.


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## iscritto (25 May 2011)

What was the loan for ? Is it HP... or secured loan. If not then UB may "play" hardball with you and not accept the payment arrangement but what choice do they have... take you to court when a judge will tell you that you need to pay the max you can.(Did they ever find the agreement as they wont be able to take you to court without it) The down side of them not accepting your payment arrangement is they may charge you more interest etc... maybe even for the letters you get from them. The other thing you need to consider is your credit rating.


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## VED (25 May 2011)

The loan was an unsecured personal loan. Despite several requests for the loan documentation it never materialised. They sent a letter in the end, saying that they could not currently locate the documents and that they apologised, after which I tried to speak to Ulster Bank and was constantly fobbed off. 

To be honest, at the moment, I am not worried about my credit rating. I am in negative equity on my house and have no intention of securing any further personal credit. I do not have any other debts other than this loan and my mortgage - not even a credit card and I cannot foresee any point within the six years where I will try to negotiate further credit.

What I am most frustrated about is that they won't give 3 months to me so that I can finally get back to full repayments! I have offered to pay more than was orginally agreed in the 3 months that they would be waiting to finally get back to ful repayments. I just don't understand why I now need to go to an independent advisor - surely it would take the 3 months to set up an agreement with them?!


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## iscritto (25 May 2011)

Madness, not that I would suggest you stop paying the loan however no agreement no loan in theory but you did get the money and all that....  it would make it very hard for them to take you to court. I think it would be worth making a formal complaint about the documents ( if you did not do so before) and also your payment plan rejection. Sent the letter addressed to the complaints dept. They will respond... if the accept your payment plan then ok but if not then request a final response letter ... this is important as you have to request this before you can make a complaint to the financial ombudsman. [broken link removed]


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## iscritto (25 May 2011)

Can you post the part of the letter about the independent advisor or send me a private message.... might be a standard thing they have on their letters. Other posters here have said some mabs are so busy that they are no longer taking appointments.


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## Brendan Burgess (25 May 2011)

> I just don't understand why I now need to go to an independent advisor



Who is saying you need to go to a financial advisor?  You don't. 

Given that you have done your best and Ulster Bank has done their worst, you should simply set up a standing order(not a direct debit)  for what you can afford. 

You should also write to them and seek a formal apology and compensation for the administrative hassle they have caused you. Ask for a final response as you intend to take it to the Ombudsman if their offer is not satisfactory.


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## mercman (25 May 2011)

Agree with Brendan. Whether you think the Ombudsman is a waste of time or not this is a classic case where the Financial Provider is clearly in the wrong, and the Ombudsman may direct in your favour.


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## Bronte (26 May 2011)

Not a bit surprised with your tale on Ulster Bank.  They are a shambles when it comes to customer service.

One interesting point is that they have lost the loan documentation, twice.  Can they take you to court without that I wonder?

Do you have a statement showing the loan and interest and repayments?  Do you have something that shows what rate of interest you agreed to repay?


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## wbbs (26 May 2011)

Might be a good idea to make an appointment with MABS re this particular debt, they can send initial letter to the bank which requests a copy of the loan agreement, be interesting to see if they can produce for MABS or not.


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## VED (26 May 2011)

Many thanks for the replies. 

I spoke to UB again and they have confirmed that it is the POLICY that they will only put 18months worth of agreements in place directly with a person, after that the person has to get independent advisor (MABs etc) to deal with UB as they will not. If I don't the loan gets passed over as a default...

I explained again about the situation - how I would be able to make full repayments from Sept and increased repayments in the interim - they are not interested they just keep saying it is policy etc. I asked to speak to someone who can over-ride this policy - apparently there is noone in UB who can do this! 

Brendan - I have already set up an a/c in UB specifically so that a standing order goes straight from there - after the debacle with the DD this was the only way I could trust them to actually take and receive the money. 

I did receive a letter explaining that they could not currently locate ANY documents relating to the loan, but not specifically saying that they lost them. I called on several occassions asking for an explanation and saying that I wanted to take this further - to be honest it became so stressful - constantly getting fobbed off, told that it was on its way, always speaking to a different person and repeatedly having to explain my story that I gave up - I had to it was really starting to affect me...

What I really want to know is whether it is true that I HAVE to go to MABs? I don't have a problem with doing this really, it's just that I see it as pointless when I will be in a position to start repayments in full from Sept. My employer has even said that they will write a letter outlining any details they require. Also I have been told that there is a 6 week waiting list just to get an appointment with MABs - surely it would take another 6 weeks to put an agreement in place after that - at which point it would be Sept. It is just not logical! 

I am sick of feeling so out of control with regard to this - I never wanted this situation and now I fee like I am being punished for trying to get back on my feet. Surely they should be supportive and say, "wonderful news about the job, and great news that you will be able to start repayments - hurrah - things are looking up!". In an ideal world maybe....


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## VED (26 May 2011)

Just to add that I asked about starting full repayments and how I would know what the repayments would be as they can't locate the documents - they said I would have to sign all new forms etc...alarm bells started ringing when they said this - perhaps I am just being paranoid - would this be the norm when starting to make full repayments after other agreements were in place, or is it just because they can't locate the docs?


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## Mpsox (26 May 2011)

Are UB in breech of the Data Protection act by loosing your documentation.? I don't know if someone more familier with the act could answer that. 

In fairness, I think you could tie the bank up in knots for months if you wanted to, Raise a formal complaint over the loss of your documents for example and tell them that, given the way you've been treated by the bank, that unless you get a suitable response and compensation for the stress and hassle they've casued, you'll be taking a case to the Ombudsman. I think you're being too nice to them and frankly, if I were you, I'd kick up a major stink and would be looking for something back from the bank.

 As Brendan suggested, in the meantime, pay what you can afford and let them do their worst. They won't want to end up in court with no documentation to back their case.


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## Brendan Burgess (26 May 2011)

Hi  VED

I think you should make a formal complaint to the Ombudsman over maladministration. 

Make sure you have all your documentation. Records of whom you spoke to, when you spoke and what was said. 

The Ombudsman will tell you the name of the person in UB to deal with this. 

They should take a view on it and sort it out. 

It may be Ulster Bank's policy that you go to MABS, but you don't have to do so. Although, they could make this a condition of giving you an extension. Many banks welcome the involvement of MABS, because it means that the borrower is taking their debt seriously.

brendan


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## Bronte (26 May 2011)

VED said:


> they said I would have to sign all new forms etc...


 
On no account should you sign anything.  Absolutely not.  You are not being paranoid.  I've had pretty much the same experience with Ulster and believe every word of what you've outlined in relation to their maladministration.  (I've a case with the ombudsman ongoing)

You have to be calm and rational and fight this in that manner as it's the only way.  Brendan has outlined to you what you need to do now.  Be very careful that you document everything, write notes of your phone conversations etc.  The more you can prove the Ulster are abysimal the more the ombudsman will rule in your favour.


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## Bronte (26 May 2011)

Separate to this, it's truly shocking what people have to put up with from credit card companies and banks.  There is Mabs and the ombudsman but it doesn't seem to be enough.  Institutions treatment of people who are severely struggling financially while trying to do their best to repay loans should not have to deal with the added mental distress of being dealt with contemptuluously by the banks.  Shame on the banks credit departments and shame on the staff who work there who never think of the human being at the end of the telephone.


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## wbbs (26 May 2011)

Unfortunately the staff who work in those departments have no say one way or the other, policy is set from above and there is little or no leeway, there are very few decision makers in these head offices as most experienced staff have been gotten rid of and replaced by rigid rules.   Logging it as a complaint with the branch is the best way to move it forward as whatever about there other processes they are fanatical about their 'complaints and queries'.


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## elcato (26 May 2011)

You need to be very careful to get the exact figures of the loan and the interest rate and what are the arrears are. As I understand you have paid €70 a month from November 09 to April 11 which is €1050. You need to sit down and see what they are looking from you in interest and push them to not have to pay any interest on any arrears as it was their fault. I think you need to ask them for this as a final proposal and if the refuse you need to go to the ombudsman. I donmt believe that this would be unreasonable as an outcome.


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## VED (27 May 2011)

Again, many thanks for all the replies. I have decided to call them again today and request all information with regard to the loan, specifically exact figures and loan documentation. I will also be putting this request in writing and CCing the compliants department in Ulster Bank and outlining that I will be bringing my case to the Ombudsman if they do not reply or if their reply is unsatisfactory.

I truly don't believe that my offer is unreasonable and I suppose all I really want is a final resolution so that I can get back to "normal". 

I am hoping that this course of action will stall any action they might bring against me in the interim. I have been thinking about what they are asking me to do - go to MABs - sign another loan agreement - and I am not comfortable with any of it, mainly because I have realised just how uninformed I am about this whole thing. I don't know what the exact figures are and I don't know why they are asking me to sign a new agreement if I go back to full repayments and the reason I don't know is because they have not been forthcoming with any of this information. 

Because of the situation I found myself in, I was very grateful that they agreed to reduce the payments for me, and I still am, but I never thought about nor was I ever informed of the implications of this. 

Do any of you know if there is a specific timeline I can put on them to reply, i.e. if I don't hear from them in 14 days etc then I take it to the Ombudsman or do I just have to wait for them to reply as and when? Do you think that this will stall them putting the loan to default or should I just go to MABs? Only thing is they are giving me 28 days to seek independent advice and I know that an appointment with MABs will not be within that timeframe...


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## iscritto (28 May 2011)

This might help
[broken link removed]

Also:
Keep paying what you can afford while the complaint ongoing.
If they call looking for more money - ask them to stop contacting you re arrears until the complaint resolved... they have to stop calling once you request this. (consumer protection code) .
Keep records of everything.

Best of luck and as much as possible please don't allow this to upset/stress you. You are doing your best.


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## HostBidder (30 May 2011)

I wonder what would happen if you stopped paying them altogether and then when they send you a demand letter asking about the loan you reply with "what loan"?


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## cremeegg (31 May 2011)

HostBidder said:


> I wonder what would happen if you stopped paying them altogether and then when they send you a demand letter asking about the loan you reply with "what loan"?



That is what I would do. However you are obviously a very different type of person.

Why make a complaint to the ombudsman, you would probably win, but what good would that do you.

You should reread Brendans first post. Do as he suggests, that is pay them what you can afford each month by standing order.

Then FORGET ABOUT it. There is no fight, no stress, no worry, just you getting on with your life and enjoying being pregnant.


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## VED (7 Jun 2011)

Just a little update for you. I took a week to think about this...and I have decided that I am going to write a formal compliant (though I have done this a few times before) and ask for a final letter with regard to their response, I am also going to ask for copies of all documentation with regard to the loan to be sent to me as soon as possible. If they respond and say they don't have them, I will ask them for a settlement figure and say I will pay €70 per month until that figure is paid off. At this stage I am so fed up with the whole thing, that even if/when I can afford to pay (and I would be stretching myself to limit to meet the repayments even with a fulltime wage) I think that is all I will I offer. What's the worst they can do? Take me to court, wreck my credit rating, as I said before, I can't see myself getting back on my feet within 6 years anyway, financially, not fully anyway so I don't think that will make much difference. 

The one thing I will say though is that I was so scared - scared to answer the phone, scared when I heard the post hitting the mat and for what?! Madness, they can't take what I don't have. 

Again, a huge thank you to all who replied. I will let you know what the response is - if I get one, I won't be holding my breath!


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## JoeB (7 Jun 2011)

People have argued on this site before that lack of paperwork isn't an issue for the bank, nor are agreements marked draft or void. Of course, it depends on how you ask the question. The bank will likely refer to existing correspondence which seems to establish a loan of some sort existed if you refuse to pay.


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## VED (4 Jul 2011)

*Update**

A small update on this. Despite sending a letter requesting all documentation, a copy of the original loan agreement and what the exact o/s balance on the loan is, all I received is ANOTHER automated letter. 

The automated letter thanks me for my letter and asks me to send "a signed authority to the Money Advice Agency" to enable them to disclose account information. 

I cannot begin to tell how frustrated I am with this! Are they not legally obliged to send me the documentation I requested under the FOI without me having to go through MABs? What do I do now? I have set up an appointment with MABs but I am loathe to go through with it, I am fully aware of how bad my financial position is and now it is getting better, I don't feel mentally able to sit down and go through this whole crazy episode from start to finish with another person...

Ironically, I have been taken on full-time - so I am now in a position to start full repayments - it will be a stretch but anything to get rid of this shower!!!! I advised this in the letter and asked that they send their proposal as this is now the case....

NEVER again will I deal with these people. I am not calling anymore - doing everything in letter form. As always, all advice appreciated...


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## millieforbes (4 Jul 2011)

Breathtakingly bad behaviour

I would not acknowledge this as a response to your query. Write again, include your letter and their letter, cc to complaints again and ask them again for the documentation.


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## VED (4 Jul 2011)

Yes, I am glad you agree, I nearly cry everytime I see their envelopes on the doormat! So angry and frustrated now.

I am within my rights to ask for this information without the involvement of a 3rd party? Am I right about this?

I will write again tomorrow and ask them to specifically address my requests and explain their reasons as to why they have not responded to them. I will also take your advice and CC the compliants dept. 

I just want to pay the bloody thing now and be done with it...am at the end of my thether here - another sleepless night for me...


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## millieforbes (4 Jul 2011)

I absolutely agree that it is frustrating and annoying but try not to let it get to you, ESP if you are only getting automated responses.

As it is now July and you are aiming for full repayments in September, I would try not to let their letters get to you. 

You can in effect develop your own automated response, refer to their letter, note they have not addressed your concerns, and start including a log of correspondence, adding each new letter as sent


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## Faxman (7 Jul 2011)

Ulster Bank if they go to court will have to provide the court with the loan documentation and in any formal proceedings they need to give you a copy of this as well.In simple terms it means we gave you a loan and you agreed to repay it by signing the agreement. If they don't have this they are in trouble. The whole thing seems an enormous mess that should be referred to the Ombudsman. Keep notes of every contact,date and time and who exactly you spoke too and what was said.


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## Brendan Burgess (9 Jul 2011)

millieforbes said:


> Breathtakingly bad behaviour
> 
> I would not acknowledge this as a response to your query. Write again, include your letter and their letter, cc to complaints again and ask them again for the documentation.



Fully agree. This is an absolute disgrace and you should not have to put up with it.

Do not lose any sleep.

Set up a standing order for the amount you are comfortable with.

Tell them what you are doing.

Make a formal complaint to the Ombudsman. It looks as if UB will do nothing about this until you make a formal complaint to the Ombudsman. I th ink at that stage, the Ombudsman team in UB will resolve this with an apology and compensation for maladministration.

Brendan


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## AndrewM (10 Oct 2012)

VED, do you have any update on the above issue ? I'm in the same boat as you...


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