# Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come from?



## Towger

Ok. The Public Sector gets 12 days unpaid leave next year. But the Goverment needs to cut spending by €20bn over the next 5 years. With this fudge PS employees will have an extra 60 days off at the end of the process and it still wont cover the shortfall. So there are next years 20% cuts to come from and the next years and next years and the next years?


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## galleyslave

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*

one thing struck me about this unpaid leave business, particularly for nurses - I suspect they'll all get hired back in as agency nurses at double the cost when the wards are short staff, so where's the gain?


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## Bill Struth

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



Towger said:


> Ok. The Public Sector gets 12 days unpaid leave next year. But the Goverment needs to cut spending by €20bn over the next 5 years. With this fudge PS employees will have *an extra 60 days off* at the end of the process and it still wont cover the shortfall. So there are next years 20% cuts to come from and the next years and next years and the next years?


You say that like it's a benefit for staff!


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## Sunny

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*

I don't think the Government will agree to it in the end. They will see what the reaction to the deal is and pull back. If they do go down this road, they have lost all credibility, the budget should not pass a Dail vote and a General Election should be called. 

Surely even the unions know that this is a crazy solution for a lot of their members.


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## Shawady

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*

If it does go ahead public servants will get their weekly or monthly pay docked by 5% over the course of the year, rather than just when they take the 12 days. Otherwise it would be a nightmare for salaries section.

It is not clear how the 12 days are to be taken. Even some of my colleagues are unclear how it is all going to work or whether it is workable at all.

The only advantage I can see for the government is, as this does not affect public sector pensioners (like the pension levy) it might make it more attractive for people to go if they have their full 40 years service or even a bit early.


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## Shawady

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



Sunny said:


> I don't think the Government will agree to it in the end. They will see what the reaction to the deal is and pull back.


 
Lenehin getting hammered on the radio this morning so you might be right.
What odds on a leadership challenge to Cowen?


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## z107

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*

To answer the original question: 

The following years' cuts will now come from the IMF. I would guess around April 2010. The government has shown it is incapable.


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## DB74

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



Shawady said:


> Lenehin getting hammered on the radio this morning so you might be right.
> What odds on a leadership challenge to Cowen?


 
1000/1 - who would want to take over in this climate?

It's a no-win situation at this stage - entirely of their own making but still a no-win situation.


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## Howitzer

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*

Who does this deal benefit?

Who was negotiatiing the deal?

Are they the same people?

This is an absolute joke.


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## Calico

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*

I know this is slightly off-topic but after watching the trade union leaders coming in and out of Leinster house for negotiations I can't help but think of those on social welfare. They are in the worst position of all with NO jobs but don't get any say on cuts to their rates. It seems very unfair, especially when you consider that concessions won by unions will most likely mean greater cuts for welfare recipients.


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## Shawady

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



DB74 said:


> 1000/1 - who would want to take over in this climate?
> 
> It's a no-win situation at this stage - entirely of their own making but still a no-win situation.


 
Fianna Fail are going to lose the next election anyway. Lenehin was not part of government prior to 2007 and has been seen as been reasonably capable be many commentators. He is young enough to be leader of the country in 5 years time so might not be a bad thing to go into opposition as leader of Fianna Fail and let the other parties ake the hard decisions.
It would probably be Fianna Fail's best chance of only spending one term in opposition.


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## Calico

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



Shawady said:


> Fianna Fail are going to lose the next election anyway. Lenehin was not part of government prior to 2007 and has been seen as been reasonably capable be many commentators. He is young enough to be leader of the country in 5 years time so might not be a bad thing to go into opposition as leader of Fianna Fail and let the other parties ake the hard decisions.
> It would probably be Fianna Fail's best chance of only spending one term in opposition.


 
You're probabaly right but to think that they would EVER be re-elected makes me shudder


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## DerKaiser

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



Howitzer said:


> Who does this deal benefit?
> 
> Who was negotiatiing the deal?
> 
> Are they the same people?
> 
> This is an absolute joke.


 
It benefits no one.  Uniformly cutting pay would have been a blunt enough solution (as opposed to targetted lay offs and pay cuts) but uniform cuts in hours is ridiculous.

I  reckon Cowen just wants the ground to open up and swallow him at this stage.  He must be completely out of touch with reality.  Non public sector workers will be infuriated as will public sector workers (Extra holidays for less pay will still upset the majority of them)


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## Teatime

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



umop3p!sdn said:


> The following years' cuts will now come from the IMF. I would guess around April 2010. The government has shown it is incapable.


 
I think you're right. This decision is madness and is an insult to both public and private workers. It basically says that public service is overstaffed and puts in a temporary pay cut. Its a fudge. The govt should quit talking to the unions and fix the deficit.


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## liaconn

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



DerKaiser said:


> Extra holidays for less pay will still upset the majority of them)


 
Unbelievable!! When someone in the Private Sector has their hours reduced do you call it 'extra holidays for less pay'.  This just proves that you can put a negative spin on anything.


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## shnaek

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*

I haven't said it before, but I am saying it now.
Brian Cowen, resign. 
He has no cajones, and we need someone with cajones right now to save this country from bankruptcy. 
Let the IMF or EU or whoever come in here and fix this country. Because unfortunately, we don't seem to be able to fix it ourselves.


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## Howitzer

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



DerKaiser said:


> It benefits no one.  Uniformly cutting pay would have been a blunt enough solution (as opposed to targetted lay offs and pay cuts) but uniform cuts in hours is ridiculous.
> 
> I  reckon Cowen just wants the ground to open up and swallow him at this stage.  He must be completely out of touch with reality.  Non public sector workers will be infuriated as will public sector workers (Extra holidays for less pay will still upset the majority of them)


PS pensioners and those nearing retirement age.

It also disproportionately affects those on lower incomes as they lose a bigger proportion of their tax home pay. It was also highly likely that any pay cuts would have been graduated, having little or no effect on those below 30K.

So who does this deal benefit?

PS Pensioners.
PS employees nearing retirement age.
High paid PS employees.

Everyone else gets screwed.


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## DerKaiser

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



liaconn said:


> Unbelievable!! When someone in the Private Sector has their hours reduced do you call it 'extra holidays for less pay'. This just proves that you can put a negative spin on anything.


 
I really don't understand where you're coming from here. 
Unpaid leave does equate to more holidays and less pay.
That's not spin
I don't intend to make it sound better or worse than it is.
I'd use the same phrase if it was my job.
If you think I'm trying to work some angle here you're just being paranoid


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## DerKaiser

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



Howitzer said:


> PS pensioners and those nearing retirement age.
> 
> It also disproportionately affects those on lower incomes as they lose a bigger proportion of their tax home pay. It was also highly likely that any pay cuts would have been graduated, having little or no effect on those below 30K.
> 
> So who does this deal benefit?
> 
> PS Pensioners.
> PS employees nearing retirement age.
> High paid PS employees.
> 
> Everyone else gets screwed.


 
Good points. It just shows how many undesireable consequences arise when the tinkering begins.


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## liaconn

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



DerKaiser said:


> I really don't understand where you're coming from here.
> Unpaid leave does equate to more holidays and less pay.
> That's not spin
> I don't intend to make it sound better or worse than it is.
> I'd use the same phrase if it was my job.
> If you think I'm trying to work some angle here you're just being paranoid


 
How can unpaid time be 'holidays'. Do you call your weekends 'holidays'. We are having our hours cut and that is what people call it in the Private Sector. Calling it 'holidays' implies its some kind of benefit or treat for public servants. And yes, a lot of us are 'paranoid' given the crap we've had to take from the media and message boards over the past year.


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## dockingtrade

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*

this is not a solution as I said pay can be made up over the  year with OT,  and with unsued tax credits, OT for those who need to be covered. Very little net savings here! And then theres the following years. Look,  the pay has to be cut, fair or not ,the alternative is becoming more of a reality EU/IMF and then there will be pain.


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## DerKaiser

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



liaconn said:


> How can unpaid time be 'holidays'. Do you call your weekends 'holidays'. We are having our hours cut and that is what people call it in the Private Sector. Calling it 'holidays' implies its some kind of benefit or treat for public servants. And yes, a lot of us are 'paranoid' given the crap we've had to take from the media and message boards over the past year.


 
If I take a friday off to make a long weekend I call it a holiday, on the other hand if someone is put on a 3 day week you wouldn't call that a holiday.  

I'm not quite sure of the terminology you would use to refer to 12 days over a year when we don't know how it would be implemented.  Given the circumstances I certainly wouldn't be dogmatic about what these 12 days would be referred to as.

Maybe instead of getting paranoid you should just worry about doing a good job and accept that you work in a loosely bound organisation of 250,000 people whose employer can't afford to maintain total wages at a current level.


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## Towger

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*

This going off topic, we all agree that the unpaid days is a fudge of Bertie proportions. So, what is the real solution, taking into account that the goverment has to cut/save €4bn EACH YEAR over the next 5 year? Is PS pay to be cut by 10-15% accross the board EACH YEAR, or would Benchmarking in Reverse be better and would it save the required money? Is this on top of raising taxes (1k Properity Tax, €600 Water Rates etc), droping day to day spending, reducing SW payments etc?

Look at it this way, the goverment has to drop spending or raise taxes by €941 per head of population EACH YEAR, for the next 5 years.


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## csirl

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



Towger said:


> Look at it this way, the goverment has to drop spending or raise taxes by €941 per head of population EACH YEAR, for the next 5 years.


 
Considering that 52% of the working population pay no net income tax, this is probably the best and fairest option. There is huge scope to take more people into the tax net and have a fairer tax system. You could probably even reduce the tax burden on the already hard hit middle income coping classes while dramatically increasing the tax take.


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## Teatime

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



liaconn said:


> How can unpaid time be 'holidays'.


 
Out of curiousity, how many vacation days do permanent public servants get a year - I heard it was 30 plus 12 flexi days - is that true?


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## boris

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*

Depends on grade but please remember that you have to work up flexi time so your 12 days is really extra hours on the job.  Most civil servants are in the region of 21 to 25 days a year.  Only the higher grades would have more leave than that.  I am sure you could find out this information on the Department of Finance website.


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## liaconn

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



Teatime said:


> Out of curiousity, how many vacation days do permanent public servants get a year - I heard it was 30 plus 12 flexi days - is that true?


 
Would people please stop describing flexi days as leave. It's flexible working hours. Therefore if you work up an extra day's hours in a month, you are allowed to take those extra hours off in one go (ie a flexi day). Its a handy resource, but it's not time off.


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## Teatime

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



liaconn said:


> Would people please stop describing flexi days as leave. It's flexible working hours. Therefore if you work up an extra day's hours in a month, you are allowed to take those extra hours off in one go (ie a flexi day). Its a handy resource, but it's not time off.


 
Apologies if I caused offence. 

So if you work 6.5 hours overtime in the month, you get a day off. Would the vast majority of public sector avail of the flexi days per month?
I imagine work an extra 30 mins for 13 days (or equivalent) would be handy enough. So if this is the case, do PS workers really want extra days off (unpaid) a year? Have the unions got this wrong on PS behalf?


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## becky

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



Teatime said:


> Out of curiousity, how many vacation days do permanent public servants get a year - I heard it was 30 plus 12 flexi days - is that true?


 
HSE 
Grade III 22 rising to 26 after 5 years 

Grade IV 26

Grade V 28

Grade VI 30

Grade VII and above 32

Employees hired before 2005 have different leave (as it varied around the country).  These people will continue to hold existing terms and conditions until they resign, retire or are promoted.


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## liaconn

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



DerKaiser said:


> *If I take a friday off to make a long weekend I call it a holiday, on the other hand if someone is put on a 3 day week you wouldn't call that a holiday.*
> 
> 
> 
> *I'm not quite sure of the terminology you would use to refer to 12 days over a year when we don't know how it would be implemented. Given the circumstances I certainly wouldn't be dogmatic about what these 12 days would be referred to as.*
> 
> Compulsory unpaid leave would be an accurate description. 'Holidays' has a certain implication.
> 
> *Maybe instead of getting paranoid you should just worry about doing a good job and accept that you work in a loosely bound organisation of 250,000 people whose employer can't afford to maintain total wages at a current level.*
> 
> What on earth has this got to do with my post? Or do you just like preaching?


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## liaconn

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



Teatime said:


> Apologies if I caused offence.
> 
> So if you work 6.5 hours overtime in the month, you get a day off. Would the vast majority of public sector avail of the flexi days per month?
> I imagine work an extra 30 mins for 13 days (or equivalent) would be handy enough. So if this is the case, do PS workers really want extra days off (unpaid) a year? Have the unions got this wrong on PS behalf?


 
Well, we'd prefer to stay in work and get paid for those days. But there's no better offer on the table. Reduced pay for the same working hours is the only other option.


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## RonanC

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*

Civil Service Annual Leave 

Secretary 31 days
Deputy Secretary 31 days
Assistant Secretary 31 days
Principal (standard scale) 29 days
Assistant Principal (standard scale) 29 days
Administrative Officer 21 days, rising to 26 days after 5 years' service
Higher Executive Officer 26 days
Executive Officer 20 days, rising to 21 days after 5 years' service
Staff Officer 21 days
Clerical Officer 20 days
Services Officer 20 days
Services Attendant 20 days


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## boris

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*

Teatime, in relation to your queries:

1) There is a limit as to the extra time that you can work up in a 4 weeek period.  It depends on the areas you work in.  Generally speaking civil service can work up to 10 1/2 hrs for 1 1/2 days off in the following period.  No more than that.  The HSE afaik is only one day.
2) It is generally 7 hours for a day off not 6.5 hours (small difference but important)
3) The system is very heavily watched and regulated.  Anyone abusing it loses the priviledge and that is not good for ones personnel record, promotion etc.
4) Not all staff avail of a day and half every month.  That being said a lot would but I don't have figures.  It doesn't suit to do so all of the time.
5) With unpaid leave, annual leave and flexi, there has always been the priority that there should be coverage within the working areas.  Any failure to do so lies with the managers not enforcing this. However this very rarely happens.

Hopefully this clarifies a few points.


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## csirl

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*

Shouldnt this thread be renamed the "Public Sector lock-out"?


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## boris

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*

Beginning to think damned if you and damned if you don't


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## villa 1

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*

Slightly of topic. Will those private sector posters please stop the sniping and whining at their public sector counterparts. It's becoming particularly annoying and a complete and utter waste of time. I'm a Public servant that has done my bit in Private industry, got my qualifications and now works damn hard at my job serving the public. I, and most of my colleagues are sick to the teeth of remarks by people in the private sector. We see the state of the countries finances and  genuinly have no problem with cuts but the water level in the well is drying up!! Stop the bickering. There are many forums on aam that are full of public sector bashing. Enough is enough!!


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## Caveat

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*

I think since the so called 'truce thread' it has actually gotten worse if anything!


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## Shawady

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



Caveat said:


> I think since the so called 'truce thread' it has actually gotten worse if anything!


 
I have this vision that the weather next summer will be super and all of us civil servants will be on unpaid leave. Imagine how that will be spun!

Anyway, according to lunch time news the government seems to be back tracking so it might not happen.


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## boris

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



villa 1 said:


> Slightly of topic. Will those private sector posters please stop the sniping and whining at their public sector counterparts. It's becoming particularly annoying and a complete and utter waste of time. I'm a Public servant that has done my bit in Private industry, got my qualifications and now works damn hard at my job serving the public. I, and most of my colleagues are sick to the teeth of remarks by people in the private sector. We see the state of the countries finances and genuinly have no problem with cuts but the water level in the well is drying up!! Stop the bickering. There are many forums on aam that are full of public sector bashing. Enough is enough!!


 
Agreed.

I have stated this on another thread that I honestly think the PS would not have went on strike last week or there would have been a lot less appetite for it but this blooming incessant bashing drove them to it. I personnally blame the media and their carry-on/misrepresentations/loose reporting.

Either we get on with it and stop the blame game or this country goes down the proverbial sinkhole.


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## cork

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*

Will staff be able to take all this leave together?

One cannot have enough holidays. 

Opportunities for training, study, shopping etc.


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## boris

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



Shawady said:


> I have this vision that the weather next summer will be super and all of us civil servants will be on unpaid leave. Imagine how that will be spun!
> 
> Anyway, according to lunch time news the government seems to be back tracking so it might not happen.


 
I would say that the Government is unwilling to commit due to the element of transformation of public services that still has to be hammered out.  As a Civil Servant and also a lot of my colleagues (if not all!) agree and have no issues with the proposals that are floating around at the moment.


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## Purple

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



RonanC said:


> Civil Service Annual Leave
> 
> Secretary 31 days
> Deputy Secretary 31 days
> Assistant Secretary 31 days
> Principal (standard scale) 29 days
> Assistant Principal (standard scale) 29 days
> Administrative Officer 21 days, rising to 26 days after 5 years' service
> Higher Executive Officer 26 days
> Executive Officer 20 days, rising to 21 days after 5 years' service
> Staff Officer 21 days
> Clerical Officer 20 days
> Services Officer 20 days
> Services Attendant 20 days



Does that include so called “privilege days”? 
A friend of mine works in an IT and he said that with flexi-days, holidays and the weeks that the place is closed over Christmas, he gets 54 days a year off.


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## Howitzer

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*

*Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come from?*

Ok I have a suggestion. I haven't crunched the numbers on it but it should be relatively easy to do once original documentaion is sourced.

One of the biggest issues with regards to PS pay is the pension liability. Whether you agree with a Defined Benefit pension is neither here nor there, the big issue, for me, is that pension payments have been linked with the pay grades of current staff. As the payments to these staff increased with various benchmarking awards these pension payments have grown far in excess of their original costings.

My suggestion is index link PS pensions to inflation (minus housing costs which are volatile). This provides the savings into the future,

Roll back ALL PS penions to the date they were first awarded, index link them as above, and roll forward to the present day. No money is taken back, payments are simply reduced going forward. This provides the savings for the 2010 budget.

This explicitly targets those on pensions but I believe it is a fair mechanism, and one that should have been employed from the start.

There will certainly be an overhead initially in re-calculating the pensions. I would put a lower cut off point so you couldn't be brought under, say 30K.

I'd guesstimate the savings to be substantial.


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## Firefly

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



RonanC said:


> Civil Service Annual Leave
> 
> Secretary 31 days
> Deputy Secretary 31 days
> Assistant Secretary 31 days
> Principal (standard scale) 29 days
> Assistant Principal (standard scale) 29 days
> Administrative Officer 21 days, rising to 26 days after 5 years' service
> Higher Executive Officer 26 days
> Executive Officer 20 days, rising to 21 days after 5 years' service
> Staff Officer 21 days
> Clerical Officer 20 days
> Services Officer 20 days
> Services Attendant 20 days


 

I know this is off-topic but this is part of the problem with the PS in my opinion...the more senior you are the more leave you get. I would have thought that the more senior you are the more you are needed to make sure your area runs better....


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## Purple

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



Firefly said:


> I know this is off-topic but this is part of the problem with the PS in my opinion...the more senior you are the more leave you get. I would have thought that the more senior you are the more you are needed to make sure your area runs better....


 I agree. I get 20 days a year and it's a struggle to take them all.


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## Shawady

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



			
				Firefly;969660 I would have thought that the more senior you are the more you are needed to make sure your area runs better....[/quote said:
			
		

> Is this unpaid leave include higher civil servants such as judges , politicians etc?
> Can't imagine the Dail not sitting for 12 fewer days next year.


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## thedaras

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*

Could someone claify which of the following the situation is/will be please.

1) 12 days unpaid leave on top of the leave already entitled too ie;26 days plus 12

2) 12 days unpaid leave taken out of the leave already entitled too?ie;26 days minus 12?

If it were the second there would be no need for any overtime,extra workers being drafted in etc..it would get my vote anyway..if I could vote ..


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## csirl

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*

The media can put a spin on anything and the public will fall for it.

So workers being locked out by their employers and not paid are now on "unpaid annual leave"? 

Are all the people who are on short weeks due to their employers being in financial difficulties also on "unpaid leave" on the days they dont work? Are unemployed people on permanent "unpaid leave"?

Essentially whats happening in the PS is that employees are being e.g. forced to go onto a 4 day week for 12 weeks. Its short time working and should be referred to as such. "Unpaid leave" makes it seem like its some sort of benefit to the employee!


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## carpedeum

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



galleyslave said:


> one thing struck me about this unpaid leave business, particularly for nurses - I suspect they'll all get hired back in as agency nurses at double the cost when the wards are short staff, so where's the gain?



This is already happening because of the recruitment ban!


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## Firefly

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*

I think the government is playing this one on a year-by-year basis - hoping that the tax intake increases next year so that further cuts won't be needed and any unpaid leave be reversed. I don't think this is a good idea and would have preferred a wage cut this year and unpaid leave the following year if required


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## carpedeum

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*

What is annoying as a parent of national school students is the refusal of teachers unions to take the 12 days during their 20+ WEEKS holidays. Parent teacher meetings have already reverted to being held during school hours - we thought this would change under the benchmarking, speaking of which, when is the downward benchmarking due to be implemented to align public service salaries with reduced private sector salaries, never mind job losses, zero of which have occurred in the public service. The recruitment ban has been circumvented by emplying agency staff and contractors. Two teachers in our extended family never have to arrive in work until after 9.00 never work late beyond 430 - this doesn't include free class sessions!

Not all public servants will suffer equally if this 12 day proposal is implemented! One has to admire the public service union negotiators, though they have little interest in the unemployed, the poor or the exchequer deficit.

I'm married to a public servant (nurse) and have relatives who are firemen, gardai and clerical officers.... Who don't take second jobs during their holidays or earn lucrative tax free black market grinds at up to €40 an hour!

Perhaps, the school year can be extended by 12 days or to UK levels?


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## Firefly

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



carpedeum said:


> What is annoying as a parent of national school students is the refusal of teachers unions to take the 12 days during their 20+ WEEKS holidays.
> 
> Perhaps, the school year can be extended by 12 days or to UK levels?


 
problem and solution


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## DerKaiser

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



csirl said:


> "Unpaid leave" makes it seem like its some sort of benefit to the employee!


 
No. It makes it sound like what it is, a day less work for a day less pay.


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## cork

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*

Is the 12 days idea now off the agenda?


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## DerKaiser

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



thedaras said:


> Could someone claify which of the following the situation is/will be please.
> 
> 1) 12 days unpaid leave on top of the leave already entitled too ie;26 days plus 12
> 
> 2) 12 days unpaid leave taken out of the leave already entitled too?ie;26 days minus 12?
> 
> If it were the second there would be no need for any overtime,extra workers being drafted in etc..it would get my vote anyway..if I could vote ..


 
Point 2 is a straight pay cut, I doubt they've been arguing for days on that one!

The unions won't tolerate a pay cut but they will accept fewer days worked for lower pay.

There are two benefits of work
1) The Pay
2) The vague feeling of usefulness not achieved by those out of work

I always think the unions only do half a job, after protecting benefits they couldn't care less whether people are productively employed or lie idle. I think they should have some concern for the impact of idleness on the well being of those they represent rather than leaving it up to the employer.

Going on this solo run of less days worked for less pay is a classic example of the unions having no regard for decent pay arising from decent productivity


----------



## liaconn

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



Purple said:


> Does that include so called “privilege days”?
> A friend of mine works in an IT and he said that with flexi-days, holidays and the weeks that the place is closed over Christmas, he gets 54 days a year off.


 
Flexi days are not leave, they are hours worked in advance and taken off in one block. How many times does this have to be explained!


----------



## RonanC

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



Firefly said:


> I know this is off-topic but this is part of the problem with the PS in my opinion...the more senior you are the more leave you get. I would have thought that the more senior you are the more you are needed to make sure your area runs better....


 
Any organisation I have looked at or worked in for that matter had the same arrangement, the more senior you were, the more leave you got. This is not a PS/CS issue, it is in every industry in Ireland.


----------



## shanegl

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



csirl said:


> The media can put a spin on anything and the public will fall for it.
> 
> So workers being locked out by their employers and not paid are now on "unpaid annual leave"?
> 
> Are all the people who are on short weeks due to their employers being in financial difficulties also on "unpaid leave" on the days they dont work? Are unemployed people on permanent "unpaid leave"?
> 
> Essentially whats happening in the PS is that employees are being e.g. forced to go onto a 4 day week for 12 weeks. Its short time working and should be referred to as such. "Unpaid leave" makes it seem like its some sort of benefit to the employee!



Take it up with the unions. It was their idea.


----------



## RonanC

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



Purple said:


> Does that include so called “privilege days”?
> A friend of mine works in an IT and he said that with flexi-days, holidays and the weeks that the place is closed over Christmas, he gets 54 days a year off.


 
I think there are two "privilege days" in question here. One at christmas and one at easter. I dont know the reasoning behind them. 

Flexi-days are time off in lieu of hours that have been already worked up. If you dont take the time off you lose it. In the CS you can only work up 10.5 hours, any more than that is lost. You can then only take one and half days off - again, this is time that has been worked up and staff are more than entitled to take it. Not all areas of the public service have flexi-time either. 

Now, how difficult is this to understand? 



Purple said:


> weeks that the place is closed over Christmas


 

Purple, schools and colleges may close over the christmas time but no public office closes for weeks over christmas? My office closes, christmas day, Stephens day and the following day. It also closes New Years day. Thats hardly weeks. 

The majority of the public services *never close* - Hospitals, Fire services and Gardai.


----------



## DerKaiser

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



liaconn said:


> Flexi days are not leave, they are hours worked in advance and taken off in one block. How many times does this have to be explained!


 
We have flexi days where I work and we call them a "day off" as you are off that day, the fact you have worked up the hours does not alter the fact that for that day you are "off".

There is a very pedantic streak running through this thread regarding the terminology of time not spent at work. It's hard to make a point about anything without someone jumping down your throat saying a day off, aholiday, unpaid leave, etc are terms of spin designed to make the PS look bad. Get over the paranoia lads.


----------



## thedaras

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



DerKaiser said:


> We have flexi days where I work and we call them a "day off" as you are off that day, the fact you have worked up the hours does not alter the fact that for that day you are "off".
> 
> There is a very pedantic streak running through this thread regarding the terminology of time not spent at work. It's hard to make a point about anything without someone jumping down your throat saying a day off, aholiday, unpaid leave, etc are terms of spin designed to make the PS look bad. Get over the paranoia lads.


 
Couldnt have put it better myself..

Me thinks its a stratagy


----------



## z107

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



> Can't imagine the Dail not sitting for 12 fewer days next year.


lol! - can they sit minus days?

Why don't they just not bother sitting at all and stop the charade of pretending to run the country (we know who our real overlords are). That would definitely save us a great deal of money.


----------



## Purple

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



RonanC said:


> Flexi-days are time off in lieu of hours that have been already worked up. If you dont take the time off you lose it. In the CS you can only work up 10.5 hours, any more than that is lost. You can then only take one and half days off - again, this is time that has been worked up and staff are more than entitled to take it. Not all areas of the public service have flexi-time either.
> 
> Now, how difficult is this to understand?


 See the thing is I don’t know anyone who only works their flat hours, be they public or private sector. Working up 10.5 hours overtime in a week is easy, doing it in a month is a piece of cake and that’s if your week is 39 hours long. Since the public sector week is so much shorter it’s even easier to work up the extra hours. I accept that they aren’t holiday days per say but really... 




RonanC said:


> Purple, schools and colleges may close over the christmas time but no public office closes for weeks over christmas? My office closes, christmas day, Stephens day and the following day. It also closes New Years day. Thats hardly weeks.


 What about the admin and HR offices of schools and colleges etc?



RonanC said:


> The majority of the public services *never close* - Hospitals, Fire services and Gardai.


 The majority of the public sector is not made up of the front line staff in Hospitals, Fire services and Gardai and they do indeed close.


----------



## sidzer

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*

I can't believe this nonsense idea is being considered!

Our country is in an economic shambles and it needs urgent and radical attention. Big decisions need to be made but we seem to be lacking in big people. 

Public servants in this country have enjoyed very good wages and conditions - higher than most of our much wealther neighbours - I know because I am a public sector worker.

It's time we all pulled together and offered to help and a 7% cut in wages is a small sacrifice compared to what many in the private sector have had to endure.

I personally am very disillusioned by my fellow country men / women. I live in a border town and witness the masses crossing over the border to shop on a daily basis at a time when we need to support local business and our economy. Last weeks strike was such a joke - many of my fellow public sector workers spent the day in NI shopping after a half an hour on the picket line!

Just heard on news that the stock value of Tesco is equivelant to the entire value of the Irish Stock Exchange. Just try getting a parking space in Tesco Banbridge with all the Irish Reg cars with roof boxes.


----------



## Latrade

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



Purple said:


> See the thing is I don’t know anyone who only works their flat hours, be they public or private sector. Working up 10.5 hours overtime in a week is easy, doing it in a month is a piece of cake and that’s if your week is 39 hours long. Since the public sector week is so much shorter it’s even easier to work up the extra hours. I accept that they aren’t holiday days per say but really...


 
I have to be honest and say that I know plenty of people who only work their flat hours and will not even go a minute beyond. I also know of plenty of people who have flexi time and build up hours accordingly (basically staying behind playing on the internet for an hour or so). All in the private sector. If I'm honest, I tend to stick to my hours more often than not, just because I can get my work done in a working day. I don't doubt the hard work you do Purple and the need for longer hours in your organisation, but I do know that a lot of my own colleagues work long hours just for show and because it's expected. I don't feel I should be looked down upon (in work) just because I'm able to get on with work and actually get done what I'm supposed to get done in a normal working day. 

The thing we're missing (that I can see) is that this is a union proposal to avoid unversal pay cuts. Yet they're proposing something even worse. It's been spun as both a government proposal (it isn't) and that it adds to the benefits of the PS. How does losing half a month's pay benefit anyone?

I don't understand how there isn't more anger from PS workers that this was the best option their representatives could come up with. Where's the cut in the higher pay? Is it a coincidence that the union officials negotiating this deal benchmark their pay against top paid civil servants? 

For all that huff about the lower paid, well they've proposed a deal that puts the very same people in the exact same position as they were insisting the strike was about. 

There's an opportunity here for fair and balanced reform. Reform that will affect a few and mean some redundancies but an overall more efficient and effective service  and what do we have? A proposal by the unions that punishes every single person in the PS and CS irrespective of how hard they work. A system that proposes less time at work for those essential front line staff they were trying to protect and that takes more money off them. 

But at least that top pay benchmark stays untouched eh lads. Nice one.


----------



## liaconn

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



DerKaiser said:


> We have flexi days where I work and we call them a "day off" as you are off that day, the fact you have worked up the hours does not alter the fact that for that day you are "off".
> 
> There is a very pedantic streak running through this thread regarding the terminology of time not spent at work. It's hard to make a point about anything without someone jumping down your throat saying a day off, aholiday, unpaid leave, etc are terms of spin designed to make the PS look bad. Get over the paranoia lads.


 
It is not pedantic to object to the misrepresentation of flexi time and to use this to underpin an argument. I think you're the ones being paranoid. No one is 'jumping down your throat' or taking part in an organised strategy. We're simply arguing our case. That is allowed, isn't it Der Kaiser?


----------



## liaconn

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



Purple said:


> See the thing is I don’t know anyone who only works their flat hours, be they public or private sector. Working up 10.5 hours overtime in a week is easy, doing it in a month is a piece of cake and that’s if your week is 39 hours long. Since the public sector week is so much shorter it’s even easier to work up the extra hours. I accept that they aren’t holiday days per say but really...


 
Purple, this is a separate argument. If you don't agree with flexi time then why not open a thread instead of muddying the waters here?


----------



## Purple

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



liaconn said:


> Purple, this is a separate argument. If you don't agree with flexi time then why not open a thread instead of muddying the waters here?


 Just pointing out that goods terms and conditions are enjoyed by most (but by no means all) public sector employees so crying about hardship just doesn't hold water.


----------



## shnaek

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



Purple said:


> See the thing is I don’t know anyone who only works their flat hours, be they public or private sector. Working up 10.5 hours overtime in a week is easy, doing it in a month is a piece of cake and that’s if your week is 39 hours long. Since the public sector week is so much shorter it’s even easier to work up the extra hours. I accept that they aren’t holiday days per say but really...



+1
In any place I've worked, it would be noticed if you were a clock watcher. But I think long hours have always been expected in IT. On the other hand, my friends in the PS do chalk down every 15 minutes extra they work, and often do this so they can get extra days. Having said that, they are in the main hard workers, and are simply exploiting an option open to them. Just like Henry. Many of us might do the same were the option to be available to us.


----------



## Howitzer

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



Latrade said:


> The thing we're missing (that I can see) is that this is a union proposal to avoid unversal pay cuts. Yet they're proposing something even worse. It's been spun as both a government proposal (it isn't) and that it adds to the benefits of the PS. How does losing half a month's pay benefit anyone?
> 
> I don't understand how there isn't more anger from PS workers that this was the best option their representatives could come up with. Where's the cut in the higher pay? Is it a coincidence that the union officials negotiating this deal benchmark their pay against top paid civil servants?
> 
> For all that huff about the lower paid, well they've proposed a deal that puts the very same people in the exact same position as they were insisting the strike was about.


It's even worse than that. The pay cuts being proposed would have been graduated, having little or no effect on the lower paid. This proposal actually takes a bigger percenbtage of after tax pay from those on lower incomes than those on higher incomes as the income being forgone is at the marginal rate.


Latrade said:


> But at least that top pay benchmark stays untouched eh lads. Nice one.


Indeed. 

This just highlights once more to me how ill informed and mis-led many PS union members are.

There will be plenty of people walking away from this smelling of roses but it sure as hell won't be those on the lower pay grades, of which I can only assume the PS posters on here don't represent.


----------



## Shawady

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



Howitzer said:


> It's even worse than that. The pay cuts being proposed would have been graduated, having little or no effect on the lower paid. This proposal actually takes a bigger percenbtage of after tax pay from those on lower incomes than those on higher incomes as the income being forgone is at the marginal rate.


 
Well just listening to some of the FF backbenchers on the radio and I would say this unpaid leave proposal is dead in the water.
It sounds like it is back to graduated pay cuts.


----------



## csirl

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*

Flexi time only applies to the lower grades of the civil service i.e. clerical workers. They are also the most militant workers and conseqently manage to get a better deal than most because in general terms, the civil service management try to avoid conflict. The recent pension levy was 7%, but clerical grades got away with a much lower precentage and the remainder of the PS got a deduction of a lot more than 7%. In percentage terms, they are also probably the most over paid in the civil service when compared with equivalents in the private sector i.e. general operative type office staff.


----------



## Howitzer

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



csirl said:


> The recent pension levy was 7%, but clerical grades got away with a much lower precentage and the remainder of the PS got a deduction of a lot more than 7%.


Have you got a link for that? I was under the impression it was graduated simply based upon salary with no exemptions.


----------



## csirl

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



Howitzer said:


> Have you got a link for that? I was under the impression it was graduated simply based upon salary with no exemptions.


 
The clerical grades are those with the lower salary scales.


----------



## liaconn

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



Purple said:


> Just pointing out that goods terms and conditions are enjoyed by most (but by no means all) public sector employees so crying about hardship just doesn't hold water.


 

Your post was in response to people pointing out that you had incorrectly included flexi time as leave. You then came back with an argument about why you didn't agree with flexi time. That was not relevant to the point.


----------



## liaconn

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



csirl said:


> Flexi time only applies to the lower grades of the civil service i.e. clerical workers. They are also the most militant workers and conseqently manage to get a better deal than most because in general terms, the civil service management try to avoid conflict. The recent pension levy was 7%, but clerical grades got away with a much lower precentage and the remainder of the PS got a deduction of a lot more than 7%. In percentage terms, they are also probably the most over paid in the civil service when compared with equivalents in the private sector i.e. general operative type office staff.


 
Actually it applies to middle management as well, and is optional at senior management level (which is ridiculous in my view!)


----------



## Teatime

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



liaconn said:


> Well, we'd prefer to stay in work and get paid for those days. But there's no better offer on the table. Reduced pay for the same working hours is the only other option.


 
OK, fair point. There is also the option of reducing the PS workforce while protecting your pay. I do feel that the unions let the PS down with this idea - it makes their position look rediculous to be honest.


----------



## Bill Struth

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



sidzer said:


> It's time we all pulled together and offered to help and a 7% cut in wages is a small sacrifice compared to what many in the private sector have had to endure.


 You call enforcing a blanket pay cut on a particular sector 'pulling together?'  Many in the private sector have also not endured any pay cuts.


----------



## liaconn

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



sidzer said:


> It's time we all pulled together and offered to help and a 7% cut in wages is a small sacrifice compared to what many in the private sector have had to endure.


 
We've already taken a 7% pay cut. (on top of the 2% income levy). A 14% pay cut might be a 'small sacrifice' for you but don't presume to speak for the entire Public Service.


----------



## Caveat

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



Bill Struth said:


> Many in the private sector have also not endured any pay cuts.


 
Not all, but many have.  Look at the the unemployment figures - that's a 100% cut.  Many on 3 day weeks etc. Lots of SMEs closed.

Anyway, why should companies that are profitable and can manage their incomings/outgoings be punished?


----------



## liaconn

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*

Because apparently it's time 'we all pulled together and offered to help'


----------



## Caveat

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



liaconn said:


> Because apparently it's time 'we all pulled together and offered to help'


 
Is that in response to my post?


----------



## liaconn

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*

Yep! But it's really a response to Sidzer (if that makes sense).


----------



## Purple

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



liaconn said:


> Your post was in response to people pointing out that you had incorrectly included flexi time as leave. You then came back with an argument about why you didn't agree with flexi time. That was not relevant to the point.


Friends in the public sector also refer to it as leave. The guy I talked about earlier pointed out that a 39 hour week is standard in the SME sector so giving public sector employees a day off because they just working a standard SME week, while technically a flexi-day, is really just an extra days holidays.


----------



## liaconn

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*

No, it's not. We're contracted to work a certain amount of hours a day and if we work a day's extra hours we get to take that as a day off. I know lots of people in the Private Sector who work similar hours to PS workers. In fact, unless only public sector workers use the buses, it's amazing how full they are during the same kind of times that I would be coming and going to work.


----------



## DerKaiser

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



Bill Struth said:


> You call enforcing a blanket pay cut on a particular sector 'pulling together?' Many in the private sector have also not endured any pay cuts.


 
boo hoo!

You should be happy that some people are part of well run organisations who manage to make a profit and contribute to the exchequer, otherwise the cuts required would be larger.

At this stage I'm with you on one thing, Screw pulling together.  Neither you nor I are the decision makers.  It's up to the government to decide on this regardless of how mant hissy fits anyone throws and we'll all have to live with it whether we like it or not


----------



## Shawady

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/orourke-unpaid-leave-proposal-parked-436812.html

Mary O'Rourke says its not going to happen.
The minister for Finance is her nephew.


----------



## Graham_07

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*

I realise that teachers are only one part of the PS, but since permanent teachers are paid for the whole year, not just term time, could their unpaid days not be taken during holiday times ? Would getting paid for 4 days less in June, July & August not come to the same thing as taking them at any teaching time? That would mean no disruption to schools. Or is this too simplistic a thought. I realise it would mess with the statistics in this thread though.


----------



## cork

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*

What is the probably of unpaid leave this being introduced?

Do you think the unions will reach an agreement with govt. before budget day?


----------



## Purple

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*

The unions knew it wasn’t a runner but also knew that they would be blasted by the general public and many of their own members if they went on strike again so they put it out in the media that the unpaid leave was a government proposal and that they likes it as an excuse to call off the strike. 

Basically it’s all out of the Comrades Stalinist disinformation play-book.


----------



## gianni

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



RonanC said:


> Civil Service Annual Leave
> 
> Secretary 31 days
> Deputy Secretary 31 days
> Assistant Secretary 31 days
> Principal (standard scale) 29 days
> Assistant Principal (standard scale) 29 days
> Administrative Officer 21 days, rising to 26 days after 5 years' service
> Higher Executive Officer 26 days
> Executive Officer 20 days, rising to 21 days after 5 years' service
> Staff Officer 21 days
> Clerical Officer 20 days
> Services Officer 20 days
> Services Attendant 20 days



Do you happen to know the % of workers in each grade ? I've googled it but can't find it...


----------



## boris

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*

Depends on the organisation.  Some are top heavy. Some are not.  Also from what I have seen a lot of the higher grades do not take all their leave and those at Assistant Principal and above are on 24 hr call officially and those below that are the same unofficially.


----------



## sandrat

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*

I am a public sector worker. I am not entitled to flexi time and am required to work one and a half days one day a week and a half day every saturday (i'm off mondays). I get too many holidays (31) and would be more than willing to cut back on the number I get but this has never been suggested by the unions (i'm not in a union). My pay was down a day's wages this week because the unions caused my office to to be closed for the strike last week. I end up doing a lot of work from home because of the nature of my work a lot of my time is taken up dealing with the public so I do a lot of my admin and email work remotely when I get home from work (childcare arrangements don't allow me to stay in work after public opening hours). Cut backs and the moratorium has increased my workload significantly but I am happy to work as I am because I enjoy my work and feel I am providing a valuable service to the community. I was relocated to my current office due to the moratorium meaning my household must now run 2 cars for work as myself and my husband used to work in the same town and now we don't. I had no choice in the move and received no financial benefit from it (not suggesting i should). I have always paid pension contributions before the pension levy even though because of the age I started in public sector I will not have full 40 years service when I finish.

Anyway my suggestion is that everyone is moved back to the previous pay scale on their incremental scale and that there are no increments for 2 years then increments are given every 2 years instead of every year if someone has reached their targets set out in PMDS. I would also be willing to work 40 hours a week instead of 35 for the same money therefore increasing the access to services at no extra cost. This push back in the incremental scale should apply to people on public sector pensions too and another saving could be made there.


----------



## Firefly

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



sandrat said:


> I am a public sector worker. I am not entitled to flexi time and am required to work one and a half days one day a week and a half day every saturday (i'm off mondays). I get too many holidays (31) and would be more than willing to cut back on the number I get but this has never been suggested by the unions (i'm not in a union). My pay was down a day's wages this week because the unions caused my office to to be closed for the strike last week. I end up doing a lot of work from home because of the nature of my work a lot of my time is taken up dealing with the public so I do a lot of my admin and email work remotely when I get home from work (childcare arrangements don't allow me to stay in work after public opening hours). Cut backs and the moratorium has increased my workload significantly but I am happy to work as I am because I enjoy my work and feel I am providing a valuable service to the community. I was relocated to my current office due to the moratorium meaning my household must now run 2 cars for work as myself and my husband used to work in the same town and now we don't. I had no choice in the move and received no financial benefit from it (not suggesting i should). I have always paid pension contributions before the pension levy even though because of the age I started in public sector I will not have full 40 years service when I finish.
> 
> Anyway my suggestion is that everyone is moved back to the previous pay scale on their incremental scale and that there are no increments for 2 years then increments are given every 2 years instead of every year if someone has reached their targets set out in PMDS. I would also be willing to work 40 hours a week instead of 35 for the same money therefore increasing the access to services at no extra cost. This push back in the incremental scale should apply to people on public sector pensions too and another saving could be made there.


 
Hi Sandrat, Really enjoyed reading your post and wish there were more PS workers on this thread that can see the mess we're in. I mentioned a few weeks ago about rolling back the previous benchmarking increases, but using the scales would do the same job - across the board so no need for individual depts to argue their cases.


----------



## Shawady

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



sandrat said:


> Anyway my suggestion is that everyone is moved back to the previous pay scale on their incremental scale and that there are no increments for 2 years then increments are given every 2 years instead of every year if someone has reached their targets set out in PMDS. I would also be willing to work 40 hours a week instead of 35 for the same money therefore increasing the access to services at no extra cost. This push back in the incremental scale should apply to people on public sector pensions too and another saving could be made there.


 
I would agree with that. I mentioned on another thread yesterday that one step back in increments would bring in around the same savings as this unpaid leave proposal and should be much easier to organise. A freeze in increments for a couple of years does not sound unreasonable. According to one report this morning, just paying the flat rate of pay for the hours 8am to 8pm would save between 700-800 million a year.
You would think that between some of these options they could come up with a workable plan to make the savings.


----------



## Caveat

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*

Welcome posts from sandrat & Shawady.  

I noticed that Shawady has mentioned this a couple of times but I don't think any other PS worker has commented or has appeared to feel the same until now.

Around the same savings? What is the annual incremental  % increase then? (broadly speaking, I realise grades/sub sectors will differ)


----------



## Shawady

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*

I would have to check the document on pay scales but I was under the impression it was around 4 to 5% - similar to what the 12 days unpaid leave was to cost public sector workers in 2010.
I had previously thought of a freeze on increments but as a lot of people have reached the top of their scale this would not bring in as much but a step back would affect almost everyone.
The advantage for the government is it is much easier to organise. The advantage for the unions is that although it is a cut in current wages it is not a cut in the pay scales themselves.

Like Sandrat, I think the current pensioners should be subjected to a 5% cut also.


----------



## Purple

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*

Excellent ideas Sandrat.


----------



## TheBlock

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*

Just one piont on the roll back of increments and I hope this doesn't throw a spanner in the works. What would happen to someone who has reached the top of their scale and hasn't had an increment in a couple of years. To that person they are effectively taking a bigger cut by being put back on a salary they were earning in some cases 5 years ago were as to some it is a move to last years salary.


----------



## liaconn

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



Purple said:


> The unions knew it wasn’t a runner but also knew that they would be blasted by the general public and many of their own members if they went on strike again so they put it out in the media that the unpaid leave was a government proposal and that they likes it as an excuse to call off the strike.
> 
> Basically it’s all out of the Comrades Stalinist disinformation play-book.


 
Is this speculation, or do you know this for a fact?


----------



## liaconn

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



sandrat said:


> Anyway my suggestion is that everyone is moved back to the previous pay scale on their incremental scale and that there are no increments for 2 years then increments are given every 2 years instead of every year if someone has reached their targets set out in PMDS. I would also be willing to work 40 hours a week instead of 35 for the same money therefore increasing the access to services at no extra cost. This push back in the incremental scale should apply to people on public sector pensions too and another saving could be made there.


 
Hi Sandrat

This is actually being discussed on another thread and I was making the point that some increments are bigger than others so if I had got one of the bigger increments in 2007 and a small one in 2008 and someone a year behind me on the scale had got the bigger increment in 2008, they would lose more pay than me. That just wouldn't be fair.


----------



## Teatime

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



sandrat said:


> Anyway my suggestion is that everyone is moved back to the previous pay scale on their incremental scale and that there are no increments for 2 years then increments are given every 2 years instead of every year if someone has reached their targets set out in PMDS. I would also be willing to work 40 hours a week instead of 35 for the same money therefore increasing the access to services at no extra cost. This push back in the incremental scale should apply to people on public sector pensions too and another saving could be made there.


 
Fair play Sandrat - out of curiousity, why aren't you in the union? is there not huge pressure for PS workers to join a union? I assumed almost every PS worker was in a union.


----------



## sandrat

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*

In fairness I think it is just about as fair as we are going to get. If people's salaries are less then they will pay less tax and levies. I know it wouldn't kill me to go back to what I was earning this time last year because I survived on it with last years prices. 

With regards to the people who are at the top of the scale having to move back to what they were earning 5 years ago maybe something else needs to be done where they would be reduced by 1/2 of the difference in scale or something. The unpaid leave thing won't work where I work because it will result in reduced opening hours to the public.


----------



## sandrat

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



Teatime said:


> Fair play Sandrat - out of curiousity, why aren't you in the union? is there not huge pressure for PS workers to join a union? I assumed almost every PS worker was in a union.


 
I was never approached to join the union and I have seen unions screw people over in the past so wasn't interested in joining anyway. I don't know anyone who voted yes for last weeks industrial action but it went ahead anyway. I'd rather see my union fees in my pocket. In fact since the unions are making such a hames of things maybe everyone should quit the union to make up the difference in take home pay?


----------



## becky

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*

This option isn’t equitable.  People have different increment dates so if they decide to implement this from 1st January what about people who received an increment on the 31st December – they will not suffer any loss. Then there are staff who are on their max for 10+ years.

Then there are staff don't get increments, existing Consultants and senior HSE managers for example.  New consultants do have a scale but most are on the first point, so no savings there.  

Also from an admin point of view it would be a nightmare to implement.


----------



## sandrat

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*

I think it is a lot easier to implement than the unpaid leave option. If staff aren't on a scale then give them a percentage cut. The savings will be there because at the moment the consultants on the first point will be due an increment but by freezing increments we are making savings. Its not about making people suffer losses if someone is due an increment of say 2000 on 31st december and we cancel that thhen thats 2000 the government has saved are you saying they should save more so that the person can suffer? They might suffer if they had planned spending that money on something but the country's bank balance will suffer if something isn't done.


----------



## TheBlock

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



becky said:


> This option isn’t equitable. People have different increment dates so if they decide to implement this from 1st January what about people who received an increment on the 31st December – they will not suffer any loss. Then there are staff who are on their max for 10+ years.
> 
> Then there are staff don't get increments, existing Consultants and senior HSE managers for example. New consultants do have a scale but most are on the first point, so no savings there.
> 
> Also from an admin point of view it would be a nightmare to implement.


 


I'd have thought it would be easy enought to implement since the majority are paid on a scale simply drop them to the previous piont?

Would it be easier to implement if there salaries were just brought back to what they were earning on a given date 01/01/2008.

No one is saying that this will be a push a button job and some work may have to go into it but it's a good option to have alongside scaled salary cuts.


----------



## Caveat

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



sandrat said:


> I was never approached to join the union and I have seen unions screw people over in the past so wasn't interested in joining anyway. I don't know anyone who voted yes for last weeks industrial action but it went ahead anyway. I'd rather see my union fees in my pocket. In fact since the unions are making such a hames of things maybe everyone should quit the union to make up the difference in take home pay?


 
I think I'm in love.


----------



## liaconn

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*

I really can't see inequitable cuts being a solution. I know it's important to save money but it has to be done fairly. Morale is already very low and I don't think this would help. You could end up with people on lower salaries taking a bigger percentage cut.


----------



## sandrat

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



Caveat said:


> I think I'm in love.


 
What's to think about?


----------



## sandrat

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



liaconn said:


> I really can't see inequitable cuts being a solution. I know it's important to save money but it has to be done fairly. Morale is already very low and I don't think this would help. You could end up with people on lower salaries taking a bigger percentage cut.


 
Percentage persmentage, if you earn what you were earning this time last year it can't be that bad because you were able to live on it last year and the prices of things have gone down since that.


----------



## liaconn

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



sandrat said:


> I  I don't know anyone who voted yes for last weeks industrial action but it went ahead anyway.


 
What Union is this? Did they not have to have a mandate to go ahead with Industrial Action?


----------



## liaconn

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



sandrat said:


> Percentage persmentage, if you earn what you were earning this time last year it can't be that bad because you were able to live on it last year and the prices of things have gone down since that.


 
A lot of lower paid Civil Servants were already getting into difficulties last year. What you are suggesting means they could end up taking a bigger percentage cuts than better paid Public Servants. This would just not work as a policy. You just couldn't present it in the terms you've stated above.


----------



## sandrat

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



liaconn said:


> What Union is this? Did they not have to have a mandate to go ahead with Industrial Action?


 
I'm not saying that but maybe the people I know are not the people who vote for this kind of ill advised industrial action when the public are already made to hate us enough with the private vs public sector debates in the media.


----------



## sandrat

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



liaconn said:


> A lot of lower paid Civil Servants were already getting into difficulties last year. What you are suggesting means they could end up taking a bigger percentage cuts than better paid Public Servants. This would just not work as a policy. You just couldn't present it in the terms you've stated above.


 
Can you give me an example salary scale where some increments are bigger than others?


----------



## Shawady

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



TheBlock said:


> Would it be easier to implement if there salaries were just brought back to what they were earning on a given date 01/01/2008.


 
I think that would relatively easy to implement.
There is no doubt that there would anomolies to be ironed out but that is going to be the case in any solution.
What are the alternatives?

An across the board pay cut of 6.85%. I think that would be the last resort for most publice servants.

A staggered pay cut of say 2% under 50K, 4% 50-80K etc. Some people will argue that why should lower earners get a smaller % cut when in the good times everyone got the same % pay rises?

The unpaid leave option. A lot of peole I work with think it will be difficult to operate and it means that everyone regardless of grade will take the same leave off i.e. same & cut in salaries. In this case lower earners they are being hit unfairly.

At least with a step back in increments it is temporary and if some takes a larger drop now because of the differences in incremental scales, they will get a bigger rise when the conditions are right for increments to be re-introduced.


----------



## becky

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*

*I'd have thought it would be easy enought to implement since the majority are paid on a scale simply drop them to the previous piont?* 

We have a massive payroll here and it would have to be done manually for each category by HR and payroll.

*Would it be easier to implement if there salaries were just brought back to what they were earning on a given date 01/01/2008.* 

Yes this is a much easier option and the one I'd pick.

The unpaid option would have been an easy enough option to implement if it was to apply across the board.  I sign time sheets every week for my staff so I just return them as unpaid leave for the day in question.


----------



## Shawady

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



sandrat said:


> Can you give me an example salary scale where some increments are bigger than others?


 
I just had a quick look at the civil service salary scales for a couple of grades.

For a CO, there is a 4.6% increase from the 1st to 2nd point, but only a 1.6% increase from second last to last.

For EO there is a 7.6% increase from 1st to 2nd point, and 3.3 % increase from second last to last.

So there is differences but if somone drops 4.6% now compared to 1.6% it might be deemed unfair, but when they get their increment back they will increase 4.6% whereas a colleague might only increase 1.6%.

It is not perfect, but at least the salary scale stays the same and everyone will get a chance to real the top of the scale, albeit a little longer than would have expected.


----------



## becky

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



sandrat said:


> I think it is a lot easier to implement than the unpaid leave option. If staff aren't on a scale then give them a percentage cut. The savings will be there because at the moment the consultants on the first point will be due an increment but by freezing increments we are making savings. Its not about making people suffer losses if someone is due an increment of say 2000 on 31st december and we cancel that thhen thats 2000 the government has saved are you saying they should save more so that the person can suffer? They might suffer if they had planned spending that money on something but the country's bank balance will suffer if something isn't done.


 
Based on this a Clerical Offier on the 4th point of the scale goes back to 3rd eg: €27,844 back to €26,697.

A consulant on an annual salary of €197,296 due to go to €199,922 is frozen and the salary cut. But by how much? 

Sorry I think this proposal is riddled with problems and just isn't a runner.


----------



## sandrat

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*

so it means its the higher paid people on a scale that suffer more? Not as bad as the lower paid ones suffering more


----------



## liaconn

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*

Yes, but you could have higher paid Clerical Staff suffering more than lower paid Executive Staff. It just is not a fair solution.


----------



## Galwaygirl

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



> This option isn’t equitable. People have different increment dates so if they decide to implement this from 1st January what about people who received an increment on the 31st December – they will not suffer any loss. Then there are staff who are on their max for 10+ years.


 

If it is implemented for the full financial year the person who gets an increment on 31st Dec won't get the next one on next 31st Dec next year.

I would have thought freezing increments for a year was a no brainer to be honest (and I say this as someone who is mid way through the Grade 3 scale). The increments will still come, albeit a bit delayed.


----------



## Caveat

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*

Freezing increments is one thing - but it doesn't help with the deficit now, today.


----------



## liaconn

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*

Sandrat is talking about reversing increments, not freezing them.


----------



## becky

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*

Freezing increments is different to going back an increment. 

Not an option I'd like personally as I'm due my last one next year but this option is workable.


----------



## Caveat

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



liaconn said:


> Sandrat is talking about reversing increments, not freezing them.


 
I know, I was addressing galwaygirl.


----------



## liaconn

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



Caveat said:


> I know, I was addressing galwaygirl.


 
So was I. I think our posts crossed.


----------



## Caveat

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



liaconn said:


> So was I. I think our posts crossed.


 
Ah OK - I see that now.


----------



## TheBlock

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*

Both I would have thought, no piont reversing them if they are not then frozen for a specified time period. Where I am ( Would be deemed Semi State) we have taken paycuts of between 5-15% for all staff above €35K and all increments have been frozen (indeffinatley) for those above €35K.

This was agreed by staff and Unions endorssed. When things change paycuts will be reversed and the suspension of increments will be lifted. We have also gone through an early retirement drive plus a 2 year career break option was open to staff. Even so this may not have been enough and the possibility of some redundancies is on the cards. But at least staff gave it an effort to try and ensure that jobs were protected as much as possible.


----------



## shanegl

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



liaconn said:


> Yes, but you could have higher paid Clerical Staff suffering more than lower paid Executive Staff. It just is not a fair solution.



No-one seemed to think it inequitable when people got increments of differing sizes.


----------



## liaconn

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*

Apparently they were worked out and very finely tuned by Dept of Finance to ensure that you wouldn't have a situation where a more junior grade higher up their scale could be earning more than their Manager who was lower down their scale. The figures weren't just pulled out of a hat.
Also, as eveyone was on the same scale you had either already got a bigger increment or were going to get one in the future. Picking a moment in time and saying that at that very stage a reverse increment is  going to operate is different. Even if you get it back years down the road, you're still being asked to take a bigger cut now than other colleagues  who might be earning more than you, with no idea as to when (or even if - if they reform the PS, how do we know what's going to happen with increments) you will recoup that loss.


----------



## becky

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



shanegl said:


> No-one seemed to think it inequitable when people got increments of differing sizes.


 
That's true.


----------



## liaconn

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



sandrat said:


> I'm not saying that but maybe the people I know are not the people who vote for this kind of ill advised industrial action when the public are already made to hate us enough with the private vs public sector debates in the media.


 
In fairness Sandrat, I work with and know a huge variety of people in the Public Service. Some voted 'no' and a lot voted 'yes', but I wouldn't think there was a particular 'kind' of person who voted for the strike. There were all kinds of situations and considerations that people took into account. Also, I think the media hate campaign actually annoyed a lot of people who had voted 'no' to strikes last year into voting 'yes' this year.


----------



## becky

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



liaconn said:


> Apparently they were worked out and very finely tuned by Dept of Finance to ensure that you wouldn't have a situation where a more junior grade higher up their scale could be earning more than their Manager who was lower down their scale. The figures weren't just pulled out of a hat.


 
No don't think it's that. 10th point Clerical Officer grade III is €35,860 while the 2nd pont of a Grade IV - Asst Staff Officer is €31,996. Plenty of grade IV's here supervising group of grade III's.


----------



## Pique318

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



liaconn said:


> Yes, but you could have higher paid Clerical Staff suffering more than lower paid Executive Staff. It just is not a fair solution.


Well then what is fair ?

Straight percentage cut isn't fair.
Low paid cut more than high paid isn't fair.
High paid cut more than low paid isn't fair.

Any suggestions as to what IS acceptable (apart from payrises)?


----------



## liaconn

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*

Well, I was talking to a friend of mine who works on salaries and she said that was part of the thinking behind the differences in increment sizes. Maybe what she meant was that the overlap between grades couldn't go beyond a certain amount.

Sorry, I'm replying to Becky's post.


----------



## liaconn

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



Pique318 said:


> Well then what is fair ?
> 
> Straight percentage cut isn't fair.
> Low paid cut more than high paid isn't fair.
> High paid cut more than low paid isn't fair.
> 
> Any suggestions as to what IS acceptable (apart from payrises)?


 
When did I say a high paid cut more than low paid isn't fair? When I talked about 'higher paid' clerical staff I meant higher up 'their' pay scale but not earning as much as a lower paid executive person.


----------



## becky

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



liaconn said:


> Well, I was talking to a friend of mine who works on salaries and she said that was part of the thinking behind the differences in increment sizes. Maybe what she meant was that the overlap between grades couldn't go beyond a certain amount.
> 
> Sorry, I'm replying to Becky's post.


 
Actually I'd say it may have been the case in the past.  The benchmarking changed the differenes between scales as lower paid grades mainly got a lower percentage increase.


----------



## csirl

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



Pique318 said:


> Well then what is fair ?
> 
> Straight percentage cut isn't fair.
> Low paid cut more than high paid isn't fair.
> High paid cut more than low paid isn't fair.
> 
> Any suggestions as to what IS acceptable (apart from payrises)?


 
A 10% cut in the workforce would be better. Should be targeted at areas where there are cuts in programmes thus meaning the people working on them have no work to do. Should also be targeted at those areas who have lost the run of themselves in recent years and need reform.

We could also do with a lot of mergers of local authorities - not ala HSE where you retain the same staff and hire more to manage them. Have so that one local authority takes over the workload of another and maybe gets a small increase in frontline staff and all the staff at the other are made redundant.


----------



## becky

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



csirl said:


> A 10% cut in the workforce would be better. Should be targeted at areas where there are cuts in programmes thus meaning the people working on them have no work to do. Should also be targeted at those areas who have lost the run of themselves in recent years and need reform.
> 
> We could also do with a lot of mergers of local authorities - not ala HSE where you retain the same staff and hire more to manage them. Have so that one local authority takes over the workload of another and maybe gets a small increase in frontline staff and all the staff at the other are made redundant.


 
How do you decide which area gets the increased frontline staff?


----------



## liaconn

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



csirl said:


> A 10% cut in the workforce would be better. Should be targeted at areas where there are cuts in programmes thus meaning the people working on them have no work to do. Should also be targeted at those areas who have lost the run of themselves in recent years and need reform.


 
This wouldn't really work in the Civil Service because people are generalists and  tend to be moved around every few years to different areas. Therefore it would be a bit like musical chairs - wherever you happened to be sitting when the cut was made would decide whether you stay or go.


----------



## Howitzer

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*

Done and dusted by the looks of it.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1204/partnership.html



> It is understood the main elements of the emerging agreement include:
> 
> 
> Agreement on changes, work practices, productivity in Health, Education, Local Authorities and The Civil Service (including non-commercial State Bodies).
> 
> These changes would involve 8-8 shift rosters, staff mobility and flexible work practices.
> Savings - according to a number of union sources the savings package is of the order of €1bn and this includes an effective pay cut of 12 days next year for public sector workers.
> 
> The balance of the savings, €300m, would be achieved by the Government implementing the report of the Review Body on Higher Remuneration, the accrued savings from the implementation of the embargo on recruitment, and the reduction in numbers as a result of the incentivised leave scheme.
> Unpaid leave - it is understood a separate document dealing with the issue of unpaid leave is being finalised.
> 
> This will focus on how the 12 days unpaid leave would be implemented without impacting on the delivery of public services.


I think you'd have to wait till next week (or even January) to see the finer details and comment on the pros and cons. My first reaction was that it coulda been worse, but then I chastised myself for being so easily manipulated.


----------



## Towger

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



Howitzer said:


> Done and dusted by the looks of it.



Oh no it is not. This thread is on where Next 4 Years saving from the Public Sector are going to come from!


----------



## Howitzer

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



Towger said:


> Oh no it is not. This thread is on where Next 4 Years saving from the Public Sector are going to come from!


These threads have context?


----------



## Graham_07

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



Howitzer said:


> These threads have context?


 
Where do you think Cowen et al get their ideas from ?

( how many Biffo's on AAM , go check )


----------



## Shawady

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*

[broken link removed]
According to this report people over earner over 50K will have a higher cut in their salaries. Does that mean they are taking more unpaid leave?

"_According to estimates. The unpaid leave deal would entail public service staff earning €50,000 having 4.6 per cent of their income deducted next year. For workers earning more than this amount the cut would be equivalent of up to 7 per cent of income_."


----------



## Shawady

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*

Its gone the other way now.
Looks like they have broken down.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1204/partnership.html


----------



## VOR

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*

Does all this mean that the health agreement reached this morning still stands? Or was that conditional?


----------



## becky

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



VOR said:


> Does all this mean that the health agreement reached this morning still stands? Or was that conditional?


 
Would think so. I have signed up to working my week over a 8am - 8pm roster already. I have yet to be asked to change mind.

Cosultants signed up it in the new contract.

Nurses work a 24 hour roster already.

So there was nothing transfroming imo.


----------



## Firefly

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*

'ICTU General Secretary David Begg said in a statement: 'That this decision was taken following a hostile campaign of opposition to the proposals before they could be either finalised or explained is inexplicable.'

A bit rich from D Begg considering the strikes last week before the negotiations began


----------



## Betsy Og

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*

While I'm thoroughly bored with the issue, I think today's developments are good in the long run, hopefully it means the government is at last going to grasp the nettle. There's no room for bs anymore, give us teachers, nurses and guards on the front line and take a knife, nay hatchet, to the layers and layers of management who dont seem to be able to deliver services or keep to budgets.

There'll be little sympathy for strikes, and I think the mood of "the ordinary people of Ireland" will filter through in the end

[I'll admit up front that I'm totally anti-union, think its day is done, now a joke shop]


----------



## Pique318

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



betsy og said:


> while i'm thoroughly bored with the issue, i think today's developments are good in the long run, hopefully it means the government is at last going to grasp the nettle. There's no room for bs anymore, give us teachers, nurses and guards on the front line and take a knife, nay hatchet, to the layers and layers of management who dont seem to be able to deliver services or keep to budgets.
> 
> There'll be little sympathy for strikes, and i think the mood of "the ordinary people of ireland" will filter through in the end
> 
> [i'll admit up front that i'm totally anti-union, think its day is done, now a joke shop]


+1000000000000000


----------



## sandrat

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*

so I'm reckoning there will be more strikes. What will happen to me if I want to work on a strike day? Having already taken one unpaid day I don't intend on taking any more!


----------



## cork

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*

Now with talks broken down - I am going to apply for the shorter working year on Monday.

I'll try & do a short training course with FAS or something.

I don't agree with strikes & I pulled out of the union recently.

I will try and take 6 weeks unpaid & I have a few weeks holiday.

I am fed up with work colleagues persistany thinking they are victims and hard done by. 

Many have a big sense of entitlement.


----------



## liaconn

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



sandrat said:


> so I'm reckoning there will be more strikes. What will happen to me if I want to work on a strike day? Having already taken one unpaid day I don't intend on taking any more!


 
Pass the picket.


----------



## liaconn

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



cork said:


> Now with talks broken down - I am going to apply for the shorter working year on Monday.
> 
> I'll try & do a short training course with FAS or something.
> 
> I don't agree with strikes & I pulled out of the union recently.
> 
> I will try and take 6 weeks unpaid & I have a few weeks holiday.
> 
> I am fed up with work colleagues persistany thinking they are victims and hard done by.
> 
> Many have a big sense of entitlement.


 

Well the fact that you can afford to take all that unpaid leave would indicate that you're in a better financial position than a lot of your colleagues. I know I would risk having my home reposessed if I went on a shorter working year. Fair play to you and good luck, but don't assume all PS workers are in the same situation.


----------



## starlite68

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



Betsy Og said:


> While I'm thoroughly bored with the issue, I think today's developments are good in the long run, hopefully it means the government is at last going to grasp the nettle. There's no room for bs anymore, give us teachers, nurses and guards on the front line and take a knife, nay hatchet, to the layers and layers of management who dont seem to be able to deliver services or keep to budgets.
> 
> There'll be little sympathy for strikes, and I think the mood of "the ordinary people of Ireland" will filter through in the end
> 
> [I'll admit up front that I'm totally anti-union, think its day is done, now a joke shop]


i fully agree.....it was good to see cowen faceing down the unions ,maybe he is finally growing a pair .....lets hope next wednsday he hits the PS where it really hurts....in their more than ample wagepackets!


----------



## Purple

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



starlite68 said:


> lets hope next wednsday he hits the PS where it really hurts....in their more than ample wagepackets!



I really don't get why anyone would take pleasure in across the board pay cuts in the public sector. I think they are 100% necessary, but because the state can't afford to pay them, not because all public sector employees somehow need to be punished. The sanctimonious self-gratification from some public sector employees over the last few years has been very hard to take but many of them accept that they have benefited greatly from the boom and their current levels of pay are not sustainable. That doesn't make it any easier to take a pay cut and it doesn't soften the blow that such a pay cut will have on much of the rest of the economy.

We need to lower costs. In order to do that we need to lower pay in the private and public sectors, we need to lower the minimum wage, we need to cut social welfare. All of the above will have a high human cost for many people. It’s absolutely necessary but it’s nothing to take pleasure in.


----------



## cork

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



liaconn said:


> you're in a better financial position than a lot of your colleagues.



I don't have a house, mortgage. loans or car. I surpose that makes me the exception.

I will now wait till well after Christmas before making any decisions.


----------



## DerKaiser

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



liaconn said:


> Well the fact that you can afford to take all that unpaid leave would indicate that you're in a better financial position than a lot of your colleagues. I know I would risk having my home reposessed if I went on a shorter working year. Fair play to you and good luck, but don't assume all PS workers are in the same situation.



What you get paid for the work you do should have nothing to do with your financial obligations, if an employer is paying his workforce more than he can afford it's not his responsibility that his employees spend more than they can afford when it comes to cutting back.

Moaning that you can't afford the mortgage is not justification for higher wages, demonstrating that you are worth what you are paid is more relevant


----------



## crabbybear

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*

Sorry Purple, but I will take pleasure in some public sector people having their pay cut especially teachers and the highly paid adminers. Sorry about that !


----------



## Purple

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



crabbybear said:


> Sorry Purple, but I will take pleasure in some public sector people having their pay cut especially teachers and the highly paid adminers. Sorry about that !



Why?


----------



## liaconn

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



DerKaiser said:


> What you get paid for the work you do should have nothing to do with your financial obligations, if an employer is paying his workforce more than he can afford it's not his responsibility that his employees spend more than they can afford when it comes to cutting back.
> 
> Moaning that you can't afford the mortgage is not justification for higher wages, demonstrating that you are worth what you are paid is more relevant


 
I was not 'moaning' that I can't afford my mortgage, I was pointing out that Cork is not typical of the average public servant in that he can afford to avail of a shorter working year. This has been verified as he has stated he has no car, mortgage, house or loans and realises he is an exception. It is important to get this point across as some private sector workers are very quick to take one example and say 'well I know a public servant and he can afford this and that, takes all his sick leave, fiddles his flexi' and on and on. It gets very very annoying.


----------



## Complainer

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



crabbybear said:


> Sorry Purple, but I will take pleasure in some public sector people having their pay cut especially teachers and the highly paid adminers. Sorry about that !


This is of course why the Govt pulled back on the unpaid leave proposal. Regardless of the financial savings, it didn't meet the 'pound of flesh'/visible pain criteria for IBEC and others.


----------



## Deiseblue

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



Complainer said:


> This is of course why the Govt pulled back on the unpaid leave proposal. Regardless of the financial savings, it didn't meet the 'pound of flesh'/visible pain criteria for IBEC and others.


Could'nt agree more.
A lot of people don't seem to appreciate either that the unions will now refuse to negotiate on any aspect of reform including redeployment , job cuts , overtime rates , extension of the teacher's working week etc.
Not to mention the question of strikes which now seem inevitable.


----------



## Pique318

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



Deiseblue said:


> Could'nt agree more.
> A lot of people don't seem to appreciate either that the unions will now refuse to negotiate on any aspect of reform including redeployment , job cuts , overtime rates , extension of the teacher's working week etc.
> Not to mention the question of strikes which now seem inevitable.



So basically, they didn't get their own way for the first time in years and so therefore will throw a tantrum and sulk.
Very mature behaviour. But then, what else do we expect?


----------



## Deiseblue

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



Pique318 said:


> So basically, they didn't get their own way for the first time in years and so therefore will throw a tantrum and sulk.
> Very mature behaviour. But then, what else do we expect?


One of any Unions main aims is to protect the terms and conditions of it's members.
Given the prevailing situation it makes absolute sense not to negotiate on reform unless the Government offer a quid pro quo.
Also the threat of strikes is a valid industrial action tool , you may not like it but such are the current realities.


----------



## bogle

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*

Its a bit ironic really as under the unions proposal it was shaping up that I'd have a bigger cut in gross pay in 2010 under their scheme, than what Cowan seemed to be suggesting last night on the news!

With Noel Grealish pulling his support for the Government and the toughest budget in decades to be delivered, the pressure is really going to start to pile up from now on. He obviously has doubts about how long the present coalition will last.  So it could be "show time" at the slightest hiccup now.

It wouldn't be unreasonable to presume that any public and civil servants who voted for FF in the last election will abandon them in droves the next time round, with the majority I suspect heading for Labour?

Obviously this will make AAM's right wing cadre of resident posters really happy I don't think


----------



## Howitzer

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



bogle said:


> Its a bit ironic really as under the unions proposal it was shaping up that I'd have a bigger cut in gross pay in 2010 under their scheme, than what Cowan seemed to be suggesting last night on the news!


Strange that. I take it you are at the lower end of the PS pay scale?


----------



## bogle

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



Howitzer said:


> Strange that. I take it you are at the lower end of the PS pay scale?



I thought Cowan mentioned a flat paycut (5% ish) across the board, while the unions were suggesting a minimal cut on the lower side and a largish one (7% ish) on the higher side.

Maybe I have misunderstood things?


----------



## shanegl

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



Deiseblue said:


> Could'nt agree more.
> A lot of people don't seem to appreciate either that the unions will now refuse to negotiate on any aspect of reform including redeployment , job cuts , overtime rates , extension of the teacher's working week etc.
> Not to mention the question of strikes which now seem inevitable.



I'm going to make the bold prediction that there won't be any more major strikes after the budget. Members don't have the stomach for it.


----------



## Amygdala

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*

Can someone clarify how many private sector jobs have been lost and how many off these were construction related? Then off the remaining private sector the average pay cut(again exc construction)? Please reference.


----------



## S.L.F

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



shanegl said:


> I'm going to make the bold prediction that there won't be any more major strikes after the budget. Members don't have the stomach for it.


 
I think you underestimate the extreme anger of the public service.


----------



## S.L.F

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



liaconn said:


> In fairness Sandrat, I work with and know a huge variety of people in the Public Service. Some voted 'no' and a lot voted 'yes', but I wouldn't think there was a particular 'kind' of person who voted for the strike. There were all kinds of situations and considerations that people took into account. Also, I think the media hate campaign actually annoyed a lot of people who had voted 'no' to strikes last year into voting 'yes' this year.


 
Plus the "yes" (84%) vote for the strike was far bigger then the "No" vote.

In many ways the Unions are far more democratic than our govt they require a 66% "Yes" vote to give the go ahead for a strike and of the total number of voters must be at least 2/3 of the total number of members.


----------



## shanegl

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



S.L.F said:


> I think you underestimate the extreme anger of the public service.



Its a done deal. Pay will be cut. The unions have failed in meeting their objectives. I think members will come to their senses in the new year and just get on with it.


----------



## Deiseblue

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



shanegl said:


> Its a done deal. Pay will be cut. The unions have failed in meeting their objectives. I think members will come to their senses in the new year and just get on with it.


Obviously the Unions will wait until they see the details in the budget before considering what action they should take,obviously they will be driven by the reaction of their members many of whom are extremely angry at the moment.
Who knows what is going to happen ?
However one thing is certain and that is we have seen the end of any negotiated public sector reform for the foreseeable future.


----------



## shanegl

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*

Well if the PS won't reform, and there's no room for negotiation, it will be more pay cuts next year. They leave the government no choice. 

Choose your poison.


----------



## S.L.F

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



shanegl said:


> I think members will come to their senses in the new year and just get on with it.


 
A bit "lie back and think of Ireland".

The thing everyone keeps on forgetting is that it is the govt that has failed.

Where has all the dosh from the last ten years gone?

Wasted on FF ventures.

And now FF want public servants to pay for the failure.



shanegl said:


> Well if the PS won't reform, and there's no room for negotiation, it will be more pay cuts next year. They leave the government no choice.
> 
> Choose your poison.


 
The reason there is no room for movement is because of the choices FF have taken over the last 2 years (and of course the fools who voted them in).

If you have pay cuts how can the Public service workers know they will be fair cuts, for me I believe if there were to be cuts they should be top heavy, say at the top end 50% down to 0% at the bottom end.

My poison is to have an election.


----------



## DavyJones

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



S.L.F said:


> I think you underestimate the extreme anger of the public service.




Yes, and I think the Public servants underestimate the extreme anger of the public.


----------



## Deiseblue

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



shanegl said:


> Well if the PS won't reform, and there's no room for negotiation, it will be more pay cuts next year. They leave the government no choice.
> 
> Choose your poison.


They can only go to that well so often.
Any further pay cuts will surely see widespread industrial action allied to what is surely going to become a more and more demotivated Public Sector workforce with a consequential rise in sick leave , a fall in the level of services and in the case of teachers a refusal to involve themselves in extra curricular activities in particular in the sporting arena , I also fear that parent teacher meetings will only be held during school hours.
Next year I think that we are going to see a total reform of our taxation system and we are all going to experience a futher sharing of pain.
Equally I think that the current Government will not be around to deliver the next budget.


----------



## shnaek

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



S.L.F said:


> Where has all the dosh from the last ten years gone?


Benchmarking. Government threw money at every vested interest. They forgot they'd have to pay that money year on year, not just once off. 
Ireland is incapable of ruling itself. We have 100 years proof of this. So the question is, what are we going to do about it?


----------



## shanegl

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*

Election to what end SLF? FG want to cut PS pay too!


----------



## liaconn

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



DavyJones said:


> Yes, and I think the Public servants underestimate the extreme anger of the public.


 
How could we. The politics of envy and begrudgery that we've seen over the past few days is shocking. I think many public servants now feel that no matter what we do, it won't be enough and I think there will be a strike.


----------



## DavyJones

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



liaconn said:


> How could we. The politics of envy and begrudgery that we've seen over the past few days is shocking. I think many public servants now feel that no matter what we do, it won't be enough and I think there will be a strike.




Think bigger. Think of the parents who will have to take unpaid leave because their kids school is closed, think of the people who will have medical procedures postponed because of strikes etc etc. More strikes and the common people will turn against ye, not just the media.


----------



## DerKaiser

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



Deiseblue said:


> However one thing is certain and that is we have seen the end of any negotiated public sector reform for the foreseeable future.



I think the one thing that is certain is that we'll have at least another €10bn to make up over the next 3 budgets.

Despite all the shaping over the last 12 months or so, it appears that the government have stuck to their original plan for dealing with the deficit which was to focus on taxation in April and public spending in December.

The next €10bn will be more painful than what we've seen to date, public sector reform might help stave off another cut in public sector pay over the next couple of years i.e. as far as unions will be concerned, reform will be the only game in town if this times cuts are not to be repeated next year and/or the year after


----------



## sandrat

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



liaconn said:


> Pass the picket.


 
Can I work behind closed doors if my office is closed? Shouldnt be too hard to go past the picket seeing as how the picketers sat in a car outside the gate the last day.


----------



## Deiseblue

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



DerKaiser said:


> I think the one thing that is certain is that we'll have at least another €10bn to make up over the next 3 budgets.
> 
> Despite all the shaping over the last 12 months or so, it appears that the government have stuck to their original plan for dealing with the deficit which was to focus on taxation in April and public spending in December.
> 
> The next €10bn will be more painful than what we've seen to date, public sector reform might help stave off another cut in public sector pay over the next couple of years i.e. as far as unions will be concerned, reform will be the only game in town if this times cuts are not to be repeated next year and/or the year after


 The Government may get away with public sector paycuts in the forthcoming budget without precipitating industrial strife but personally I doubt it,
If they continue to target the PS in the future then I feel that we will be plunged into industrial turmoil.
Perhaps the unions best bet at this stage would be to strike not only in protest at the putative cuts in the forthcoming budget but also tolay down a marker in terms of any further cuts ?


----------



## Howitzer

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



Deiseblue said:


> Perhaps the unions best bet at this stage would be to strike not only in protest at the putative cuts in the forthcoming budget but also tolay down a marker in terms of any further cuts ?


What does this actually mean? The last strike was pre-emptive ahead of the Budget and in parallel with discussions on cuts planned for that budget.

Best bet for what? Ultimately would do you want to happen? Things to stay as they are? Ok, then what do you suggest is done to cut the deficit?


----------



## DerKaiser

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



Deiseblue said:


> Perhaps the unions best bet at this stage would be to strike not only in protest at the putative cuts in the forthcoming budget but also tolay down a marker in terms of any further cuts ?


Or maybe they could re-engage in reform talks as quickly as possible. The sooner reforms are on the table the less severe the cuts will be in future.


----------



## bogle

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



DerKaiser said:


> Or maybe they could re-engage in reform talks as quickly as possible. The sooner reforms are on the table the less severe the cuts will be in future.



Err excuse me Dude? After all the crap and down right lies that's been posted here and printed in the Sunday & Daily rag over the last few months, you now want to talk?

Really?

David Begg was on the radio at lunch time - said social partnership with this Government is finished, finito, kaputt.

I wonder was it any coincidence that Joan Burton and Leo Varadkar were on at the same time with Begg?

Personally I wouldn't be "going long" on the current holders of public office.


----------



## DerKaiser

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



bogle said:


> Err excuse me Dude? After all the crap and down right lies that's been posted here and printed in the Sunday & Daily rag over the last few months, you now want to talk??
> 
> Really??
> 
> David Begg was on the radio at lunch time - said social partnership with this Government is finished, finito, kaputt.
> 
> I wonder was it any coincidence that Joan Burton and Leo Varadkar were on at the same time with Begg?
> 
> Personally I wouldn't be "going long" on the current holders of public office.



The unions are not king makers.  

Fine Gael are not going to reverse pay cuts, so unless there's a labour majority after the next election there's still a large deficit that will be addressed by cutting the public sector wage bill further.

Looking at it coldly (which the unions and their supporters need to do rather than throw hissy fits) it's going to be reform or face more severe cuts.

Tough one to take for some who've lost all perspective of reality after 15 years of the entitlement culture, but those who realise they're paid to serve the public as efficiently as they can should be ok in the longer term.


----------



## liaconn

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



DavyJones said:


> Think bigger. Think of the parents who will have to take unpaid leave because their kids school is closed, think of the people who will have medical procedures postponed because of strikes etc etc. More strikes and the common people will turn against ye, not just the media.


 *Will *turn against us?  Where have you been living???????? As for thinking bigger. Not a lot of that in evidence over the past few days, particularly from Brian Cowen.


----------



## liaconn

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



sandrat said:


> Can I work behind closed doors if my office is closed? Shouldnt be too hard to go past the picket seeing as how the picketers sat in a car outside the gate the last day.



Well_* do*_ something about it. Put it in writing to your personnel that you are available to work that day and require arrangements put in place to facilitate that. cc it to your  parent department and the Department of Finance if necessary. I know in my Department the head office opened and anyone who wanted to report for work, regardless of what building they worked in, was told to turn up there with some work with them and sign in for the day. There was no problem. There was also regional buildings opened for people in those locations. If they're not willing to open a building then you should be entitled to work from home for the day. The fact that these arrangements haven't been made is not the fault of the Union or your striking colleagues, it is a fault at management level.


How many people  picketed by sitting in  cars during the last strike day? I don't know of any.  That's a very unfair comment, tarring everyone with the same brush. If you don't agree with unions or strikes that's your entitlement and you're free to express it. But your colleagues are also entitled to be in a union and strike if they wish. You should recognise their entitlement also.


----------



## bogle

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



DerKaiser said:


> The unions are not king makers.



Who said they were?
300,000 CS/PS peeps have a vote just like everyone else (maybe you feel they shouldn't)!! A handful of votes can swing a seat either way.

Paycuts for 2010 had already been conceded.
It was actually Varadkar who said that in the event of FG and Lab being in Government that there would still need to be some form of agreement.


----------



## S.L.F

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



DavyJones said:


> Yes, and I think the Public servants underestimate the extreme anger of the public.


 
The public have been lead by the nose by a govt that is fighting to stay in power nothing else.

They have wasted untold billions in the last 10 years and expect the public service to bail them out.



Deiseblue said:


> They can only go to that well so often.
> Any further pay cuts will surely see widespread industrial action allied to what is surely going to become a more and more demotivated Public Sector workforce with a consequential rise in sick leave , a fall in the level of services and in the case of teachers a refusal to involve themselves in extra curricular activities in particular in the sporting arena , I also fear that parent teacher meetings will only be held during school hours.
> Next year I think that we are going to see a total reform of our taxation system and we are all going to experience a futher sharing of pain.
> Equally I think that the current Government will not be around to deliver the next budget.


 
Exactly my thoughts, but also a go-slow refusing to answer phones work to rule and all the ways to make the govt sore.



shnaek said:


> Benchmarking. Government threw money at every vested interest. They forgot they'd have to pay that money year on year, not just once off.
> Ireland is incapable of ruling itself. We have 100 years proof of this. So the question is, what are we going to do about it?


 
The real question is what are the govt going to do about this it's all their doing.

The public service have been demonized now for the last year and are demoralised this is not good for anybody.

If their wages are unjustly cut they will strike.



shanegl said:


> Election to what end SLF? FG want to cut PS pay too!


 
If your boss made loads of mistakes and cost the company billions you have the choice of new management who will do what is necessary to get it back on track again what would you do trust the fools who made the mistakes or would you want new management.



liaconn said:


> How could we. The politics of envy and begrudgery that we've seen over the past few days is shocking. I think many public servants now feel that no matter what we do, it won't be enough and I think there will be a strike.


 
Yeah they want the public service workers to all suffer unjustly regardless of whether or not they are on big salaries.



DavyJones said:


> Think bigger. Think of the parents who will have to take unpaid leave because their kids school is closed, think of the people who will have medical procedures postponed because of strikes etc etc. More strikes and the common people will turn against ye, not just the media.


 
Since it is the media that have lead the public by the nose I wouldn't be at all surprised whether or not a solution is found that they will keep the crap up regardless.



DerKaiser said:


> The unions are not king makers.
> 
> Fine Gael are not going to reverse pay cuts, so unless there's a labour majority after the next election there's still a large deficit that will be addressed by cutting the public sector wage bill further.
> 
> Looking at it coldly (which the unions and their supporters need to do rather than throw hissy fits) it's going to be reform or face more severe cuts.
> 
> Tough one to take for some who've lost all perspective of reality after 15 years of the entitlement culture, but those who realise they're paid to serve the public as efficiently as they can should be ok in the longer term.


 
They may not be king makers but they are needed by the govt to get things done


----------



## Howitzer

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



bogle said:


> Err excuse me Dude? After all the crap and down right lies that's been posted here and printed in the Sunday & Daily rag over the last few months, you now want to talk?
> 
> Really?
> 
> David Begg was on the radio at lunch time - said social partnership with this Government is finished, finito, kaputt.
> 
> I wonder was it any coincidence that Joan Burton and Leo Varadkar were on at the same time with Begg?
> 
> Personally I wouldn't be "going long" on the current holders of public office.


I'd decided I wasn't going to post here for the foreseeable as it was going to be full of angry PS employees, and they have every right to be angry, but trying to debate with someone who just wants to give out at someone else is pointless.

But ultimately the unions are going to have to get back into negotiations with the Govt. These cuts still don't fix the deficit, they're nowhere close. So what are going to do, sit on our hands till we have to call the IMF in and they sack half the PS and cut the wages of those remaining?

There may be a few clowns on here who would enjoy that prospect but anyone with any sense knows the repercussions that would have.

I wouldn't be taking everything Begg says at face value. He plays the game of rhetoric and bluster as well as anyone. 

I heard that interview. He made a strange comment in reference to the 12 days to the effect that it had been reported that Unions had stated the unpaid leave would be made up in the future when in fact they had said nothing of the kind. It was a strange comment because, he was right the unions never did say the days would be made up, but the only time I'd even heard it mentioned was by himself just then. Rhetoric and bluster aimed to deflect blame onto the media.

Where there are factual errors and lies reported rebut them with links to support yourself. Anyone with a half a mind can see the difference.


----------



## DerKaiser

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



S.L.F said:


> Exactly my thoughts, but also a go-slow refusing to answer phones work to rule and all the ways to make the govt sore



except it's not the govt that will be sore.

FF are gone in two years time at the very latest (unless labour pick them over FG!).

Cowen, Harney, Lenihan, etc have all built up good pensions already and have earned big over the last 10 years.  Work to rule and striking won't leave them impoverished.  

The people who would genuinely suffer are the public, particularly the most vulnerable i.e. those reliant on an fully functioning health service, those reliant on social welfare and children relying on a good education.  IN the short to medium term, Public servants can decide that the only way of teaching the current govt a lesson is by creating a country not worth living in I guess, that's entirely up to them.


----------



## shnaek

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



S.L.F said:


> If their wages are unjustly cut they will strike.


They've already gone on strike when there was TALK of their wages being cut. If their wages are cut at all they will strike - just or unjust. I don't blame the unions or the PS for this - they operate the same the world over. But we elected the government to govern, and for too long the unions have been puppet masters. Are the government going to govern, or do we not have a democracy here in Ireland?

As I heard a father say to his young girl (no more than 4 years of age) in the supermarket today - life is unfair!


----------



## sandrat

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



liaconn said:


> How many people picketed by sitting in cars during the last strike day? I don't know of any. That's a very unfair comment, tarring everyone with the same brush. If you don't agree with unions or strikes that's your entitlement and you're free to express it. But your colleagues are also entitled to be in a union and strike if they wish. You should recognise their entitlement also.


 
There were 3 sitting in a car outside *my* place of work. It was raining and there is no shelter. They only got out of the car when anyone tried to enter the building and informed them it was closed.


----------



## liaconn

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*

Well, what's your issue then?


----------



## Firefly

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



S.L.F said:


> Exactly my thoughts, but also a go-slow refusing to answer phones work to rule and all the ways to make the govt sore.


 

I think this mentality is why so many people have issues with the PS. If you did this in a private co you'd get the door and rightly so. No recognition of the customer.


----------



## Latrade

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*

I think there's been a bit of an FIA/FIFA event here. I think it's pretty clear the Government "leaked" the proposal for the unpaid leave in full knowledge of what the public reaction could be. It was used as a lever and put the unions in a no win position.

All in all, a pretty good bit of politic from the Government, whether you agree with it or not.

On another note, I heard Jack O'Connor this morning, not entirely sure what planet he's on. His constant references to the extremely well off and the higher paid were presented without even the slightest irony of his own pay. 

I know how pay cuts are going to affect the lower paid, I know how tough it's going to be, but surely the unions can see that having someone on a 6 figure salary talk about the higher paid elite they lose their moral high ground. 

I was also reminded that the first body to come out and drive a wedge in society was the unions. It was they who early on tried to create the split between those on higher salaries and the "rest of us" (though they seem to think anyone above 50K is living in luxury). O'Connor was back playing this card.


----------



## csirl

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



Firefly said:


> I think this mentality is why so many people have issues with the PS. If you did this in a private co you'd get the door and rightly so. No recognition of the customer.


 
From what I've heard from a couple of public servants I know is that they wont be cooperating with political work that is not strictly part of their job descriptions e.g writing speeches for Ministers, providing statistics, answering queries via constituency offices etc, going to quasi political events outside office hours etc. I think the most interesting one will be how the Ministers will perform in public without their speechs and accompanying notes. Contrary to popular perception, speechs are written by the civil servants rather than the political advisors/cronies. To be honest, most policital advisors are not up to the job, so watch out for a lot of foot in mouth type statements in the coming months.


----------



## Deiseblue

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



Firefly said:


> I think this mentality is why so many people have issues with the PS. If you did this in a private co you'd get the door and rightly so. No recognition of the customer.


 Not true , there was a work to rule in Bank of Ireland in the early nineties and nobody was fired !


----------



## Caveat

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



Latrade said:


> (though they seem to think anyone above 50K is living in luxury)


 
Well that's a bizarre stance.  

Only a few weeks ago there was an (I assume union sponsored/associated) newspaper advert pleading for the public's empathy stating that '4 in 10 public servants earn less than 40K you know' (paraphrasing, but I think figures are accurate - confirmation?)

So by implication, less than 40K is regarded as not well off, but over 50K is loaded?!


----------



## Sunny

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



Latrade said:


> I think there's been a bit of an FIA/FIFA event here. I think it's pretty clear the Government "leaked" the proposal for the unpaid leave in full knowledge of what the public reaction could be. It was used as a lever and put the unions in a no win position.


 
By all accounts it was the other way around. The Unions announced the leave proposal and said a deal could be done on the back of this and hence that was why they called off the strike. Cowan obviously felt something could be done as well but many on the Government side were less convinced. Both sides were guilty of really mis-reading the public on this. 

As for Jack O'Connor, I loved the way he said the Unions weren't powerful in this Country because all the media was State Owned or privately owned right wing and the Unions didn't have access. And yet the same right wing media was giving him 10 minutes to give his thoughts. Not the media's fault he used his time to sound deluded.

As an aside, why are pensioners untouchable but every other recepitant of social welfare faces cuts. There are some very wealthy pensioners out there that could be targeted. Suppose they need to save something for next year and the year after!


----------



## Purple

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



Deiseblue said:


> Not true , there was a work to rule in Bank of Ireland in the early nineties and nobody was fired !


Banks are now state companies. They were never open to market forces like small businesses as they are licence and regulated by the state and there are massive barriers to entry to the industry.


----------



## Firefly

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



Deiseblue said:


> Not true , there was a work to rule in Bank of Ireland in the early nineties and nobody was fired !


 
Any other examples?


----------



## shnaek

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



Purple said:


> Banks are now state companies. They were never open to market forces like small businesses as they are licence and regulated by the state and there are massive barriers to entry to the industry.



+1
Saying AIB, BOI or even the ESB are examples of private companies is BS.


----------



## shnaek

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



Latrade said:


> I think there's been a bit of an FIA/FIFA event here. I think it's pretty clear the Government "leaked" the proposal for the unpaid leave in full knowledge of what the public reaction could be. It was used as a lever and put the unions in a no win position.


You are giving the government a lot of credit here! I find it hard to believe they were that cunning. Afterall, incompetence is their call card.


----------



## Deiseblue

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



Purple said:


> Banks are now state companies. They were never open to market forces like small businesses as they are licence and regulated by the state and there are massive barriers to entry to the industry.


An argument you've made before !
Did you perhaps notice that I said the action in question took place in the early nineties , a time when I'm sure you would agree that the Banks were very much private companies only answerable to their  shareholders !
The Bank's currently are immensely indebted to the state who nonetheless are minority shareholders.
If they were state owned as you say would AIB have dared to appoint an insider as CEO over the Government's stated opposition - I don't think so.
If AIB were a state company would they have dared pay the first tranche of the 3% due under the National Wage Agreement towards 2016 - I don't think so , a payment that BOI also made much earlier.


----------



## Sunny

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



Deiseblue said:


> An argument you've made before !
> Did you perhaps notice that I said the action in question took place in the early nineties , a time when I'm sure you would agree that the Banks were very much private companies only answerable to their shareholders !
> The Bank's currently are immensely indebted to the state who nonetheless are minority shareholders.
> If they were state owned as you say would AIB have dared to appoint an insider as CEO over the Government's stated opposition - I don't think so.
> If AIB were a state company would they have dared pay the first tranche of the 3% due under the National Wage Agreement towards 2016 - I don't think so , a payment that BOI also made much earlier.


 
The argument is that the banks are not and were never typical private sector companies. Alot of their work and pay practices came from the public sector. Albeit, that has changed in recent years. I remember working in a non-unionised part of one of the big two when they restructured and merged with a unionised part. It was staggering to see the differences in work practices and pay.


----------



## Deiseblue

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



Firefly said:


> Any other examples?


Yes.
AIB
Junior Doctors
Consultants


----------



## Howitzer

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



Deiseblue said:


> Yes.
> AIB
> Junior Doctors
> Consultants


? Aren't the last 2 PS and the first falls under the same category as BOI?

In fairness work to rule tends to occur in protected sectors which pretty much monopolise their industry. It just so happens that in Ireland these tend be PS or semi-state utilities and - back in the day - banks.


----------



## DerKaiser

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



Sunny said:


> As for Jack O'Connor, I loved the way he said the Unions weren't powerful in this Country because all the media was State Owned or privately owned right wing and the Unions didn't have access. And yet the same right wing media was giving him 10 minutes to give his thoughts. Not the media's fault he used his time to sound deluded.


 
That's what I was thinking.



Sunny said:


> As an aside, why are pensioners untouchable but every other recepitant of social welfare faces cuts. There are some very wealthy pensioners out there that could be targeted. Suppose they need to save something for next year and the year after!


 
The pensioners are getting away with it now because there are relatively few of them.  People retiring in 10/20/30 years time can expect a retirement age of 70 and a means tested OAP.

Also they've a lot of time on their hands. Try cutting free medical care to some old bag on a €70k a year pension and you'll never hear the end of it, better to cut back on children's hospitals as far as they're concerned!


----------



## DavyJones

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



liaconn said:


> *Will *turn against us?  Where have you been living???????? As for thinking bigger. Not a lot of that in evidence over the past few days, particularly from Brian Cowen.




Why all the question marks? 

I live in a world where people don't really care about PS wages, unless it directly affects them. Most people are more interested in what the cut to SW will be, grants for farmers, child benefit etc. Most people watch the news on the union talks with a mild interest. If you think the public are angry now, then you ain't seen nothing yet. Wait for the reaction if public servant strikes become common place. This will have direct consequences for all of Irish society, then you'll see some real anger.


----------



## Purple

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



DerKaiser said:


> The pensioners are getting away with it now because there are relatively few of them.  People retiring in 10/20/30 years time can expect a retirement age of 70 and a means tested OAP.
> 
> Also they've a lot of time on their hands. Try cutting free medical care to some old bag on a €70k a year pension and you'll never hear the end of it, better to cut back on children's hospitals as far as they're concerned!



I agree. When the Breaded Brethren  drone on about fairness why don’t they bring up the fact that public sector families with young children are being hit with these painful but necessary cuts while pensioners with no mortgage, no childcare costs, free travel, medical cards etc are being left untouched. Why not cut pay so that pensions are reduced and get rid of the pension levy. 

Yes, I do think the pension levy is a pay cut by another name (and have said so many times on AAM).


----------



## liaconn

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



DavyJones said:


> Why all the question marks?
> 
> I live in a world where people don't really care about PS wages, unless it directly affects them. Most people are more interested in what the cut to SW will be, grants for farmers, child benefit etc. Most people watch the news on the union talks with a mild interest. If you think the public are angry now, then you ain't seen nothing yet. Wait for the reaction if public servant strikes become common place. This will have direct consequences for all of Irish society, then you'll see some real anger.


 
The question marks are because I'm frankly amazed that you think the private sector haven't been making their feelings very clear. And how you can seriously state that people don't really care about PS wages well??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????


----------



## DavyJones

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



liaconn said:


> The question marks are because I'm frankly amazed that you think the private sector haven't been making their feelings very clear. And how you can seriously state that people don't really care about PS wages well??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????




How have the private sector showed how it really feels? and who in your opinion are the "private sector"? The cleaners,the delivery people, the farmers, the butchers, the chippies, the general operative, the shop assitant, the factory line worker, the bar person, the list could go on. Every job that isn't paid for by the state is done a a person that works in the "Private Sector".


The people on the street aren't talking about the trade unions and the PS, they'll be talking about them though if more strikes ensue.

So again, who in your mind are the private sector and how have they made their feelings clearly shown?


----------



## Shawady

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*

I am very disappointed to have to take another pay cut, particularly as parts of An Bord Snip have been shelved because the government lacks bottle. However, I think the unions should just take it on the chin and go back to the government in the new year and proceed to put together the long term plan for reform. Otherwise, the same thing is going to happen at next year's budget. There will be another pay cut.
They should ask the government straight out how much money they want to reduce the PS bill by in the next 3 budgets. If this money can be saved without having to actually cut pay scales at least this debate won't be happening every year.


----------



## Purple

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



Shawady said:


> I am very disappointed to have to take another pay cut, particularly as parts of An Bord Snip have been shelved because the government lacks bottle. However, I think the unions should just take it on the chin and go back to the government in the new year and proceed to put together the long term plan for reform. Otherwise, the same thing is going to happen at next year's budget. There will be another pay cut.
> They should ask the government straight out how much money they want to reduce the PS bill by in the next 3 budgets. If this money can be saved without having to actually cut pay scales at least this debate won't be happening every year.



Great post, well said.


----------



## shnaek

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



Shawady said:


> However, I think the unions should just take it on the chin and go back to the government in the new year and proceed to put together the long term plan for reform.


It's just a damn shame they haven't been proactive in this regard at all. Reform has been promised over and over and hasn't been delivered. It is demoralising to be taking pay cuts and thinking there are yet more to come. Instead of threatening the Irish people, the unions should be pro-active on the reform front so they gain the respect of the people. Then they can point to reforms achieved, instead of making empty promises, and perhaps people would have more respect for their position.


----------



## Sunny

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*

From Peter McLoone in todays Irish Times.

_The proposed deal included explicit agreement on the redeployment of civil and public servants, within and between organisations, to ensure better services as budgets and staffing declined._
_Long-sought changes like the extended working day, which would deliver more flexibility and longer health service opening hours, were there for the taking. So were increases in day care, community health services, outpatient and diagnostic capacity._
_The deal would have seen the introduction of shared services in areas like finance, procurement, human resources and payroll across health services, local authorities, education and the Civil Service. Competitive and merit-based promotions would have been extended to the last remaining areas of the public service, new procedures for redeploying surplus teachers would have been introduced, supervision and substitution arrangements would have been improved._
_Staff co-operation with the restructuring and rationalisation of VECs and State agencies would have been guaranteed, better management and standardisation of annual and sick leave would have happened, and better Civil Service opening and closing times would have been introduced._
_These are just some examples of the detailed changes that we tabled for the health services, education, local authorities and Civil Service – all as Government spending decreased. But the deal floundered because the Government reneged on its earlier agreement that the temporary measure of unpaid leave could enable us to get through 2010, before the transformation programme began to yield big savings._

Why did it take the threat of a pay cut to get all these things on the table and 'there for the taking'. Where were offers on these things during the years of so called 'partnership'. For years we have hearing from trade unions how efficient the public sector was and about all these reforms that were supposed to have happened. And yet the unions by some sort of mircle suddenly discovered all these inefficiencies that could be improved. It just goes to show that the past few years has been a case of take take take by public sector unions. They offered nothing but industrial relations peace in return. 
Every reform mentioned by the Unions at the talks should be pushed through. With or without their co-operation.


----------



## sandrat

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*

There is no point in cutting our pay if they don't stop increments. The pension levy cuts were more of less cancelled out for me when I got my increment in August.


----------



## Shawady

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



sandrat said:


> There is no point in cutting our pay if they don't stop increments. The pension levy cuts were more of less cancelled out for me when I got my increment in August.


 
I can never understand why increments never seem to be on the agenda. I mentioned to one of my colleagues months ago that the government should freeze increments and she was against the idea even though she is at the top of her scale and it would not affect her. Her reasoning was that it would be unfair as I should be allowed reached the top of my scale in the same time frame.
I think €250-300 million was added to the pay bill last year by people getting their increments so you would think that even a freeze for 2010 would mean the pay cut (which is permanent) required would be lower.
Most people will still reach the top of the sacle, only a bit later than they thought.


----------



## becky

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



sandrat said:


> There is no point in cutting our pay if they don't stop increments. The pension levy cuts were more of less cancelled out for me when I got my increment in August.


 
That's some increment. I'm down €80 a week with all the levies so it would take some increment for me to get all back.

Pay has to be cut as freezing increments alone won't change the pay bill that much. That and the unfairness of people like consultants who are on the max would not be affected. A cut of 15% in consultants pay will be a nice bit.

I can see both happening tomorrow and I always thought they would just cut pay and leave increments.


----------



## liaconn

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



DavyJones said:


> How have the private sector showed how it really feels? and who in your opinion are the "private sector"? The cleaners,the delivery people, the farmers, the butchers, the chippies, the general operative, the shop assitant, the factory line worker, the bar person, the list could go on. Every job that isn't paid for by the state is done a a person that works in the "Private Sector".
> 
> 
> The people on the street aren't talking about the trade unions and the PS, they'll be talking about them though if more strikes ensue.
> 
> So again, who in your mind are the private sector and how have they made their feelings clearly shown?


 
What do you mean 'Who is the Private Sector'?

'They' have made their feelings very clear on this and many other forums, in letters to the papers, in conversations with Public Sector friends, by their outraged reaction to us getting 'holidays' ie having our working hours cut which resulted in backbenchers threatening to vote agains the budget. I really don't know whether this is a wind up or whether you really think that the private sector are not giving out about PS wages.


----------



## liaconn

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



sandrat said:


> There is no point in cutting our pay if they don't stop increments. The pension levy cuts were more of less cancelled out for me when I got my increment in August.


 
You must have got a very big increment or be paying a pretty small levy.


----------



## Sunny

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



liaconn said:


> What do you mean 'Who is the Private Sector'?
> 
> 'They' have made their feelings very clear on this and many other forums, in letters to the papers, in conversations with Public Sector friends, by their outraged reaction to us getting 'holidays' ie having our working hours cut which resulted in backbenchers threatening to vote agains the budget. I really don't know whether this is a wind up or whether you really think that the private sector are not giving out about PS wages.


 
In fairness, I know plenty of lower paid public sector workers who were equally outraged at the suggestion.


----------



## Shawady

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



liaconn said:


> You must have got a very big increment or be paying a pretty small levy.


 
The levy for lower paid clerical grades was only 4 or 5% so it is possible that one increment would cancel it out.


----------



## Caveat

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



sandrat said:


> There is no point in cutting our pay if they don't stop increments.


 
+1

This is not intended as an inflammatory description, but really, increments are automatic pay rises aren't they?  Is there any other way of putting it?   

Personally, I only ever get a pay rise if the company can afford to give me one. I certainly don't get one every year anyway.  Didn't get one this year or last year either.

Maybe have a temporary freeze on increments, to be reviewed after 2 years?


----------



## liaconn

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



Sunny said:


> In fairness, I know plenty of lower paid public sector workers who were equally outraged at the suggestion.


 
But not for the same reason. A lot of the private sector outrage was at the fact that our pay cut would be matched by a cut in hours worked. I can't imagine lower ranked public sector workers were agitating to work the same hours for less pay.


----------



## liaconn

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



Shawady said:


> The levy for lower paid clerical grades was only 4 or 5% so it is possible that one increment would cancel it out.


 
Possibly. But my understanding is that Sandrat is a librarian so would not be a lower paid clerical grade.


----------



## liaconn

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



Caveat said:


> +1
> 
> This is not intended as an inflammatory description, but really, increments are automatic pay rises aren't they? Is there any other way of putting it?
> 
> Personally, I only ever get a pay rise if the company can afford to give me one. I certainly don't get one every year anyway. Didn't get one this year or last year either.
> 
> Maybe have a temporary freeze on increments, to be reviewed after 2 years?


 
I agree that increments are far too easily come by in the Public Sector. But I think there's a bigger issue here around the effectiveness of Performance Management and how realistic the marking structure is. This is certainly something that could usefully be looked at as part of reform.


----------



## becky

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



Caveat said:


> +1
> 
> This is not intended as an inflammatory description, but really, increments are automatic pay rises aren't they? Is there any other way of putting it?
> 
> Personally, I only ever get a pay rise if the company can afford to give me one. I certainly don't get one every year anyway. Didn't get one this year or last year either.
> 
> Maybe have a temporary freeze on increments, to be reviewed after 2 years?


 
I signed a contract that stated a payscale so freezing my increment is changing my t&c's. 

Yes they are payrises which are only meant to be paid based on satisfactory service. The automatic granting of them is something that crept in over the years, I'm just guessing here though.


----------



## DerKaiser

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



Shawady said:


> I am very disappointed to have to take another pay cut, particularly as parts of An Bord Snip have been shelved because the government lacks bottle. However, I think the unions should just take it on the chin and go back to the government in the new year and proceed to put together the long term plan for reform. Otherwise, the same thing is going to happen at next year's budget. There will be another pay cut.
> They should ask the government straight out how much money they want to reduce the PS bill by in the next 3 budgets. If this money can be saved without having to actually cut pay scales at least this debate won't be happening every year.


 
Very sensible.

After tomorrow any reasonable person will recognise that the Public service have certainly not been immune from this downturn.  

I think a lot of the outrage was from the non-unionised who felt that the idea of any worker being exempt from this financial downturn was simply not fair.  People who'd been hit hard were basically in no mood to have sympathy with the zero cuts stance of unions.

I believe we can move on from this point and there's now an opportunity for the entire public to get behind the idea that significant and permanent public sector reform rather than further pay cuts are the way forward from here.


----------



## Booter

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



DerKaiser said:


> I believe we can move on from this point and there's now an opportunity for the entire public to get behind the idea that significant and permanent public sector reform rather than further pay cuts are the way forward from here.




This is an important point. We need those making sacrifices to feel that it is in the common good, and that in taking the hit, they are in some way contributing towards a recovery, rather than being victims of the downturn.


----------



## Purple

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



Sunny said:


> From Peter McLoone in todays Irish Times.
> 
> _The proposed deal included explicit agreement on the redeployment of civil and public servants, within and between organisations, to ensure better services as budgets and staffing declined._
> _Long-sought changes like the extended working day, which would deliver more flexibility and longer health service opening hours, were there for the taking. So were increases in day care, community health services, outpatient and diagnostic capacity._
> _The deal would have seen the introduction of shared services in areas like finance, procurement, human resources and payroll across health services, local authorities, education and the Civil Service. Competitive and merit-based promotions would have been extended to the last remaining areas of the public service, new procedures for redeploying surplus teachers would have been introduced, supervision and substitution arrangements would have been improved._
> _Staff co-operation with the restructuring and rationalisation of VECs and State agencies would have been guaranteed, better management and standardisation of annual and sick leave would have happened, and better Civil Service opening and closing times would have been introduced._
> _These are just some examples of the detailed changes that we tabled for the health services, education, local authorities and Civil Service – all as Government spending decreased. But the deal floundered because the Government reneged on its earlier agreement that the temporary measure of unpaid leave could enable us to get through 2010, before the transformation programme began to yield big savings._
> 
> Why did it take the threat of a pay cut to get all these things on the table and 'there for the taking'. Where were offers on these things during the years of so called 'partnership'. For years we have hearing from trade unions how efficient the public sector was and about all these reforms that were supposed to have happened. And yet the unions by some sort of mircle suddenly discovered all these inefficiencies that could be improved. It just goes to show that the past few years has been a case of take take take by public sector unions. They offered nothing but industrial relations peace in return.
> Every reform mentioned by the Unions at the talks should be pushed through. With or without their co-operation.



Some posters here would disagree with Mr. McLoone; they think that there is very little scope for improving the public sector and would ask for examples before taking his word for it.


----------



## Firefly

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*

I'm all for public sector reform but sadly the bottom line (ie effect on reducing the 298m we're borrowing per day) wouldn't be changed until the medium / long term. We need to reduce borrowing now and hence the wage reductions. Given that the cost of living is meant to have fallen by 6% over the last 12 months, surely a reduction of 6% is the minimum to be sought?


----------



## sandrat

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*

I said it more or less covered the pension levy it didn't cover the health levy or the income levy. It didn't totally cover the pension levy but I still didn't get hit as hard as I would have done if I hadn't gotten the increment. There is no need for people to know what my scale or grade is.My increment was not huge, it was the norm but with the fact that the pension levy is tax deductable, the increment pretty much balanced things out. Maybe the fact that I was on unpaid leave at the start of the year might make things different for me but it wasn't nearly as bad as peopl were predicting in the media before the levy was introduced.


----------



## Howitzer

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



sandrat said:


> There is no need for people to know what my scale or grade is.My increment was not huge, it was the norm but with the fact that the pension levy is tax deductable, the increment pretty much balanced things out. Maybe the fact that I was on unpaid leave at the start of the year might make things different for me but it wasn't nearly as bad as peopl were predicting in the media before the levy was introduced.


Sounds like the gist of this thread.

From talking to some PS employees from a wide variety of areas with vastly differing pay scales they are all of the opinion that they've taken a 7.5% pay cut already. 

The facts and Union spin are 2 different things altogether in this case. Unfortunately a lot of misplaced anger seems to have been generated as a result.


----------



## shanegl

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*

Its fascinating how many can't read their own payslip.

Someone pointed out to me the new pension levy line to try and "prove" the cut they've taken.

It wasn't until I got them to look at a pre-levy payslip that they'd realised that their PAYE deduction had also decreased.


----------



## sandrat

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*

I have been dropped from point 3 ona pay scale to lower than the entry point. Someone on point 4 of the same scale is brought closer to to point 3 than point 2. Seems increments will not be targeted.


----------



## VOR

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



sandrat said:


> I have been dropped from point 3 ona pay scale to lower than the entry point. Someone on point 4 of the same scale is brought closer to to point 3 than point 2. Seems increments will not be targeted.


 
Hopefully that won't happen again.  Points scale should be scrapped. Why should someone get paid more than another just because they are in the job 12 months longer?
It's a ridiculous notion and does not allow for performance or competence.


----------



## RonanC

*Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f*



gianni said:


> Do you happen to know the % of workers in each grade ? I've googled it but can't find it...


 
Sorry Gianni in the delay in getting back to you on this. 

These figures are based on full time equivlents, I think I have the exact figures and I will have another look for them. 

As at 30/09/2009 and does not take into account anyone who has left on early retirement lately which was taken up by alot of senior civil servants - Assistant Principal upwards.

Secretary - 17
Deputy Secretary - 2
Assistant Secretary - 150
Principal -  750
Assistant Principal - 2080
Administrative Officer n/a
Higher Executive Officer - 3250
Executive Officer - 4890
Staff Officer - 1857
Clerical Officer -10,735
Services Officer - n/a
Services Attendant - n/a


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