# what can a debt collection agency actually do if someone refuses to pay up?



## Klesser

Quick question what can a debt collection agency actually do if someone refuses to pay up?


----------



## ClubMan

*Re: Debt Collection agency*

Presumably they could go to court to force repayment of the debt?


----------



## MandaC

*Re: Debt Collection agency*

They could pursue the matter through the courts. 

A lot of them would look at the overall amount owed, the possible costs of recouping (legal, etc) and if the person has the actual means to repay.


----------



## gillarosa

*Re: Debt Collection agency*

Plus, the likes of Experian I believe they compile data on Companies credit risk based on information garnered from actions taken and known credit terms taken which are then made available to their subscribers.


----------



## Guest117

*Re: Debt Collection agency*



Klesser said:


> Quick question what can a debt collection agency actually do if someone refuses to pay up?


 
Klesser - my experience is that if someone really does not want to pay - then they won't. We have a few guys we have followed all the procedures with through court cases, judgements against them etc. They have no assets in their own names etc so the sheriff can't / won't do much about them.

Check the guys out a little and if you find loads of judgements against them then your time and energy might be better spent elsewhere. Some people make a career out of not paying for anything. Difficult to let go but it might be the right thing.


----------



## Klesser

*Re: Debt Collection agency*

I could go to the small claims court myself by I thought that debt collection agency might have a bit more power so to speak.  
Its only 100e so not going to break the bank but its the principal of the thing.  I gave a satisfactory service and should be paid for it.
Suppose il end up letting it go anyway but still annoyed


----------



## Klesser

*Re: Debt Collection agency*

Sorry should mention this is with a private customer not a company if that makes any difference.


----------



## ClubMan

*Re: Debt Collection agency*

Don't think the _Small Claims Court _would deal with that sort of issue. They only deal with consumer issues.


----------



## bond-007

*Re: Debt Collection agency*

Debt collection agencies have no powers. They cannot force a person to pay up. They can write to a debtor and threaten all manner of things like sending the boys round to collect but at the end of the day they have no real powers. They cannot take a person to court, they have to refer back to the creditor if the debtor does not pay up after their approaches. They cannot put stuff on the ICB or affect credit ratings. They are basically a big loud barking dog with no teeth. 

The work on commission. Some of them are quite nasty and you really need to find out their reputation before you put any business their way. It could affect your reputation being associated with a rogue collection agency.


----------



## ClubMan

*Re: Debt Collection agency*

Can they really not take legal action if necessary?


----------



## csirl

*Re: Debt Collection agency*

Not unless they own the debt. If they are simply hired collectors, as most are, they have no power. Ireland is not like the UK where debt collectors can seize goods. The companies operating in Ireland rely on peoples ignorance of Irish law to frighten people into paying up - too many Irish people think that they have UK style powers. They have so little power that a debtor can simply verbally bar them from entering his/her property and call the Gardai to remove them for committing criminal trespass if they they do call.


----------



## ClubMan

*Re: Debt Collection agency*

Can debts not be "sold on" or otherwise transferred?


----------



## bond-007

*Re: Debt Collection agency*

Of course they can but it is really not done in Ireland. Collection agencies are just brought in to try and collect on behalf of the creditor. In the UK debts are routinely sold to these types of agencies who then own the debt and can use the courts to collect.


----------



## ClubMan

*Re: Debt Collection agency*



bond-007 said:


> Of course they can but it is really not done in Ireland.


Really - I am surprised. I thought that it was.


----------



## FKH

*Re: Debt Collection agency*

Instead of a debt collection agency you would be better going to see a solicitor, in order to bring someone to court for non-payment of a debt.


----------



## bond-007

*Re: Debt Collection agency*



FKH said:


> Instead of a debt collection agency you would be better going to see a solicitor, in order to bring someone to court for non-payment of a debt.


That is all well and good. But if the debtor has a string of judgements against them there is very little chance of recovering the money. These guys are professional debtors and know how to play the system, they own no property or assets in their own names. You would have to pay a solicitor, court costs etc yourself. You can get the costs back off the debtor but if he can't/won't pay you are stuck with the bill. You would be throwing good money after bad. For a €100 debt the legal fees would be prohibitive. Generally a solicitor would advise against going to court for anything less than a €1000 unless you are 110% sure that the debtor has really has the money and will pay up. 

There is a point where one must consider cutting ones losses.


----------



## murphaph

*Re: Debt Collection agency*



FKH said:


> Instead of a debt collection agency you would be better going to see a solicitor, in order to bring someone to court for non-payment of a debt.


Lol. I take it you've never actually done this. Judgements against debtors are just bits of paper.


----------



## SideshowBob

*Re: Debt Collection agency*

Croskerrys.ie are great, once the judgement is secured the Sherrif goes out ....

Bob


----------



## bond-007

*Re: Debt Collection agency*



SideshowBob said:


> Croskerrys.ie are great, once the judgement is secured the Sherrif goes out ....
> 
> Bob


So, have you read what we have said earlier? 

Sending out the sheriff has *no effect* on most debtors. Most own absolutely nothing in their own name. The sheriff will come away empty handed. 

As big and scary as Croskerrys are they will not take on a debt for only €100.


----------



## markpb

*Re: Debt Collection agency*



bond-007 said:


> Sending out the sheriff has *no effect* on most debtors. Most own absolutely nothing in their own name. The sheriff will come away empty handed.



Not only that but if the Sheriff thinks (judgement call) that they're a hardship case, he won't even go out.


----------



## Taslett

CSIRL in message #11 you mention the Irish Law governing debt collectors (3rd Party act??)  Can you guide me to where exactly I could find that on net please???

Thank you for your time


----------



## bond-007

There are no laws governing debt collectors. They are subject to the same laws as the rest of us.


----------



## csirl

bond-007 said:


> There are no laws governing debt collectors. They are subject to the same laws as the rest of us.


 
Precisely. There are no specific laws governing them as they have no legal status in Ireland - in the eyes of the law, they are members of the public.


----------



## Taslett

So they literally run on fear of the average Joe, explains why when sent a letter to tell them they have no permission to interfere and then told if they communicate further they will be dealt with by way of harrassment and extortion they disappear, excellent. Gentleman I thank you.


----------



## JamesGG

I told *Intrum Justitia* I was disputing a charge. Havent heard back since.


----------



## Bluebells

*Re: Debt Collection agency*



ClubMan said:


> Can debts not be "sold on" or otherwise transferred?





bond-007 said:


> Of course they can but it is really not done in Ireland. Collection agencies are just brought in to try and collect on behalf of the creditor. In the UK debts are routinely sold to these types of agencies who then own the debt and can use the courts to collect.



How times have changed.


----------



## Taslett

Any debt can be sold to a debt collector and their collection of the debt is independant of the original defaulted debt. Say you owed the bank the last 4k of a loan and couldn pay it back, if the bank wrote the 4k off they would sell the debt to a collection agency for maybe €100 (guesstimate) The agency will then look for the 4k from you using threats that will not be initiated, this is my experience anyway, I even got the ICB report stating that debt was written off, debt collector got minimal amount from me, just didn't pay them anymore and they never came after me, probably recovered their cost of debt from me and let rest go. I would fear them anymore anyway thats for sure.


----------



## Plek Trum

Taslett said:


> Any debt can be sold to a debt collector and their collection of the debt is independant of the original defaulted debt. Say you owed the bank the last 4k of a loan and couldn pay it back, if the bank wrote the 4k off they would sell the debt to a collection agency for maybe €100 (guesstimate) The agency will then look for the 4k from you using threats that will not be initiated, this is my experience anyway, I even got the ICB report stating that debt was written off, debt collector got minimal amount from me, just didn't pay them anymore and they never came after me, probably recovered their cost of debt from me and let rest go. I would fear them anymore anyway thats for sure.


 
Wow... aren't you the clever one .  No wonder this country is going the wrong way up.. christ almighty...


----------



## bond-007

Plek Trum said:


> Wow... aren't you the clever one .  No wonder this country is going the wrong way up.. christ almighty...


A bank shareholder speaks.


----------



## ardmacha

> A bank shareholder speaks.



We are all bank shareholders now.


----------



## Kev

Wonder will the TD's that have overspend the tax payers money will have to pay it back or will they get a black mark on the credit rating or perhaps a DCA will be sent out to recover it from them and send them threatening letter and telephone calls.  

How much does these debt collecting agency (DCA) pay for debts I expect they are sold off for peanuts say 10cents per euro owning on the debts.   If a debt is over 5 years then it is statued barred.  Also if there is no valued credit agreement between the loan company and the purchaser then it will be very difficult to prove that the debt is owned, DCA's usually purchase these debts in bulk and often there is no valued agreement.


----------



## bond-007

You fail to understand how debt collectors operate here. They do not buy debts for a start. They all operate on a commission basis. So if they collect €1000 of a debt they may get €200 of it. For them to buy a debt they would need to have the debt assigned to them and the debtor must be informed that the debt now belongs to the DCA. The DCA can bring proceedings in its own right if they own the debt. 

The statute of limitations is 6 years for a debt.


----------



## Kev

Far more civilised then the UK.


----------



## bond-007

That is for sure.


----------



## lff12

I understand that they would make an application to your county court in order to register a judgement.  If you turn up to the hearing with evidence on why you didn't pay and can back this up there is a possibility that a judge may look kindly on it.  However if you simply ignored them or refused to pay the judgement will probably go against you.

It would certainly make sense at this point to make a realistic offer in writing to the debt collector based on a realistic assessment of what you can afford, no matter how small.  If they refuse this it would work in your favour if the case then goes to court.

I know a few years ago it was very common (though pretty much unreported in the media) that a lot of banks etc would refuse to accept offers from clients who had missed payments due to changes in circumstances etc and just continue to demand the entire amount back.  Even if you go through MABS the lender is not bound to accept any offer from you, but if they refuse and then go to court, it will stand against them if there is considerable evidence that you made a real effort.

 Intrum Justitia are well established in this business, but as far as I know the debt collectors here are only service agents.  Not sure what exactly the law is regarding the purchase of consumer debt in Ireland.  I believe the original loan right now remains with the original lender, which is only correct since they are the ones who took the risk in the first place.


----------



## csirl

Regardless of who owns the debt or whether or not its been sold, a debt collection agency has no power to enforce collection of a debt. The only person who is authorised to turn up at your house and demand payment is the County Sherriff who is a public servant.


----------



## bond-007

> county court


There is no such court anywhere in Ireland.


----------



## salsbury

hopefully not off-topic, but how do i sell on a debt owed to me by a tenant who has defaulted on rent when i have no written contract with them (only verbal)?


----------



## bond-007

You can't.


----------



## salsbury

can i get other tenants in the house to attest to his presence in pursuit of making a legitimate claim against him.. or any other options?


----------



## Bronte

Rather than selling on the debt why don't you go to a solicitor to send a letter to the tenant. But bear in mind this is going to cost you more than the debt in all likelyhood. Does your deposit not cover the amount he owes?


----------



## haminka1

salsbury said:


> hopefully not off-topic, but how do i sell on a debt owed to me by a tenant who has defaulted on rent when i have no written contract with them (only verbal)?



no written contract means you simply wanted to earn some extra money and somebody was cleverer than you - legally, from what i know, you have little if any chance of getting the money back and the solicitor would cost you more than the money owned.
I would say, you already gained something in return - a good lesson.


----------



## dobsdave

bond-007 said:


> You fail to understand how debt collectors operate here. They do not buy debts for a start. They all operate on a commission basis. So if they collect €1000 of a debt they may get €200 of it. For them to buy a debt they would need to have the debt assigned to them and the debtor must be informed that the debt now belongs to the DCA. The DCA can bring proceedings in its own right if they own the debt.
> 
> The statute of limitations is 6 years for a debt.


 
My brother in law is having a problem with MBNA, basically he owes them money which he cant afford to pay(let go recently), but is paying them something every month.
They rang him today and said that once 7 months of arrears had clocked up, they would sell the debt to a 3rd party.
He questioned this and was told 'thats what has been done previously'.
And that they would sell it for less than what was owed to them.


So is it possible to sell a loan to a debt collection agency?

Or are MBNA using this threat as a scare tactic of their own?


----------



## bond-007

MBNA will transfer the collection of the debt (not the debt itself) to a 3rd party after 7 months. If they can't collect MBNA will take legal proceedings to get a court judgement and then use all the standard collection techniques thereafter.


----------



## Papercut

bond-007 said:


> MBNA will transfer the collection of the debt (not the debt itself) to a 3rd party after 7 months. If they can't collect MBNA will take legal proceedings to get a court judgement and then use all the standard collection techniques thereafter.


    Seemingly MBNA have, & do sell on their debts:

  ''_The woman's debt of €1,500 was bought by Cash Flow Services from MBNA. Cash Flow Services then pursued her through the courts for payment of her debt._''

http://www.independent.ie/national-...lters-is-only-way-to-recoup-debt-1764674.html


----------



## bond-007

That is certainly a new tactic from them.


----------



## dobsdave

Papercut said:


> Seemingly MBNA have, & do sell on their debts:
> 
> ''_The woman's debt of €1,500 was bought by Cash Flow Services from MBNA. Cash Flow Services then pursued her through the courts for payment of her debt._''


 
Jailed for non payment, how would that recoup anything?
Why would a company do that, instead of say putting a judgement against a house?


----------



## bond-007

They would do that in addition to a judgement mortgage.
It is not easy to get a well charging order where a house is in negative equity and there is an existing mortgage having first charge over it.


----------



## dobsdave

bond-007 said:


> They would do that in addition to a judgement mortgage.
> It is not easy to get a well charging order where a house is in negative equity and there is an existing mortgage having first charge over it.


 
Sorry for going slightly off topic, but does a judgement mean the house must be sold, or that they can take some of the profit _if_ it is sold


----------



## bond-007

A judgement mortgage by itself does not mean it must be sold. It means it must be paid if the house is sold in the future.

A well charging order is needed to force a sale.


----------



## dobsdave

Thanks,
I presume the well charging order is not seen too often?


----------



## Papercut

dobsdave said:


> Jailed for non payment, how would that recoup anything?
> Why would a company do that, instead of say putting a judgement against a house?


   I don’t know – in that particular case maybe she didn’t own a house to begin with? It may not result in recouping of the debt, but it would certainly clip the wings of the defaulter, making it near on impossible for them to obtain any other sort of credit for quite some time, & send a clear signal out to others. Although the default would have been recorded on her ICB profile way before this anyway, along with any previous judgments.

  Also, I assume that she must have ignored or not complied with previous court orders for it to get to that stage. Previous solicitors are mentioned in the article, so it may be the case that there is a bit of sensationalist journalism or selective factual amnesia at play with regard to the sequence of events leading up to the committal order. However, it did result in a committal order for a €1,500 credit card debt.


----------



## Bronte

dobsdave said:


> Thanks,
> I presume the well charging order is not seen too often?


 
They would only go to the expense of getting a well charging order if their was equity in the property.  So if a house is in negative equity the mortgage company would get the proceeds and there would be nothing left to pay other creditors so it would be a waste of time and money to get the well charging order and also their would be bad publicity.

But if the house is worth more than the mortgage they will go for the well charging order, that's my understanding.


----------



## bond-007

A court would not entertain a request for a well charging order where there is a negative equity situation existing.


----------



## Bronte

bond-007 said:


> A court would not entertain a request for a well charging order where there is a negative equity situation existing.


 
Why is this (I know you know your stuff so not doubting you)? Is it because the mortgage company has first lien?


----------



## bond-007

Exactly. There would be questions asked such as what is the value of the property and what prior liens exist i.e. a mortgage. It would be against public policy to grant an order where the result would be to make the debtor homeless and not discharge the debt in question. A court could view such proceedings as vexatious in that situation. As there are considerable costs to the creditor in bringing the proceedings they would be foolish to do so where there were no chance of getting the order.


----------



## csirl

dobsdave said:


> Jailed for non payment, how would that recoup anything?
> Why would a company do that, instead of say putting a judgement against a house?


 
I doubt she was jailed for not being able to make payment. More likely that she ignored a court order to pay an affordable amount or refused to cooperate with the courts.


----------



## Luckycharm

csirl said:


> I doubt she was jailed for not being able to make payment. More likely that she ignored a court order to pay an affordable amount or refused to cooperate with the courts.


 
Agreed she would probally have got 7 day notice, civil summons, judgement, installment order from court and then you get a committal - I imagine she never showed up in court for any of these so the judge was left with no option.

Judgment mortgages last 12 years so if they sell their house during that period and there is any equity left after paying off the mortgage the person next in line get paid. Some properties could have a few charges on them!!


----------



## bond-007

> Some properties could have a few charges on them!!


Oh yes and those charges are paid in the order they were put on.


----------



## Luckycharm

bond-007 said:


> Oh yes and those charges are paid in the order they were put on.


 
Or not if there is no equity


----------



## Fiat127

Interesting read this.  However, what can be done if the debtor moves back in with family and/or friends. They themselves might not have any assets but their family member (parent, brother or sister) could own the house that the debtor has moved into?  Can the creditors claim against the asset of say the parent?


----------



## GDUFFY

No .


----------



## user2012

*Debt collectors abroad*

Hey can debt collector get you if your in Ireland and they're in a different country threatening with legal action?


----------



## Time

No.


----------



## user2012

*Debt collectors abroad*

quite a short answer? Are you positive?


----------



## Time

Debt collectors have no powers above those of a private citizen.


----------



## munchy

reading the earlier posts about the powers of the Irish versus UK debt collection companies. If I had a judgement for unpaid mortgage in Ireland and living in the UK, even though the Irish debt collecting companies dont have the same aggressive powers that the UK debt guys have, what is stopping the Irish creditors (or debt collection company) from selling my debt onto a UK debt collector who can in turn start to get quite aggressive and well within their rights to confiscate my goods? 

Is this a possibility? I have a fear of what could happen to future assets if I get a judgement in Ireland. Would the Irish bank be able to sell this onto a UK debt collection company (presuming they know im in the UK) without going through the UK courts first? And would the UK courts entertain such a case?


----------



## Time

Ok, let's dispel a few myths.

UK debt collectors cannot seize goods. Only certificated bailiffs or high court enforcement officers can seize goods on foot of a court order.

In order to get such an order they would have to go through the county courts first.


----------



## Luternau

munchy said:


> reading the earlier posts about the powers of the Irish versus UK debt collection companies. If I had a judgement for unpaid mortgage in Ireland and living in the UK, even though the Irish debt collecting companies dont have the same aggressive powers that the UK debt guys have, what is stopping the Irish creditors (or debt collection company) from selling my debt onto a UK debt collector who can in turn start to get quite aggressive and well within their rights to confiscate my goods?
> 
> Is this a possibility? I have a fear of what could happen to future assets if I get a judgement in Ireland. Would the Irish bank be able to sell this onto a UK debt collection company (presuming they know im in the UK) without going through the UK courts first? And would the UK courts entertain such a case?



Hi Munchy,
I realise you have been advised here to go the bankruptcy option already but this seems the only solution to all your what if scenarios.
For example bankruptcy equals-a write off of all debt, no judgements,
No threat of imprisionment, no people looking for you.
All this means an end in sight and a new start.

I don't think this is an attractive option to you and I am wondering if there are other factors here? Have you other assets you are trying to hold on to that you would loose in bankruptcy? Is it possible (no offence) that you are a won't pay?

Just asking these as if not, bankruptcy in the UK is the way. There are so many in similar positions here that would love to be in the UK right now for that very reason.


----------



## munchy

Hi Luternau,

When I started to get advice from UK forums, some of the information was more dire than provided here. If I was a bankruptcy tourist, and returning to Ireland, its a lot easier. But to make a new life for ourselves in the UK is much harder when starting off as a bankrupt. It affects my work and the some of my professional duties (when I find new work) long term, and we are also in the process of doing an adoption assessment and this can be a major hindrance and we may have to wait another 5 years before approval which will put us in our late forties. To qualify as adoptees we must have a min 2 bedroomed home and be able to take the first year off work to be with the child fulltime ie, substantial savings. Even though the debt is discharged after a year, there is an IPO on income for 3 years so I will hand over all future "surplus income" over and above my stipend (and its a tight budget you live on) Before we fell on hard times in Ireland some years ago and I lost my job, I was the breadwinner as my husband doesnt earn much, and so if I start working again here I dont relish having all our income for the future adoption channeled back to the EBS. My concern is about future earnings and how that affects us. All cards, bank accounts etc will be frozen and to go into a new job working as a professional and asking for cash in hand every month will not be a possibility. And no credit for many years to come after that. Starting a new life in the UK is very hard if one starts bankrupt and there is much to consider. If there were jobs and babies available for adoption in Ireland, Id be staying put and facing EBS head on. At the moment we are divided about our options and I will keep asking lots of questions until I am clear. 
adly 
Ideally we would like to get approved for the adoption before any Irish judgment so that if we declare bankruptcy we could then include all our expenses and obligations for the receiver, along with childcare and other startuary requirements for us to care for a newly adopted child, but if we face the courts childless it will likely stop that process in its tracks. The adoption procedure here in the UK is very strict about that sort of thing. This wouldnt be an issue if my hubby was a high-paid executive but sadly he is not  A lot of this burden is on my shoulders

Edited to say : I am really jumping ahead quite a lot yet because its only early days in my arrears and I hope instead to reach an amicable settlement with EBS instead. On advice here I have written to them to ask that we organise interest only until such time that I can find work and start over again. My current financial situation is very dire and will take at least 6 months for us to be back on top, fingers crossed. But they may not consider it and not accept it... especially if I am not in Ireland.


----------



## Bronte

Wow Munch I'm very glad that Luternau had the forsight to ask you the question as we now find out a lot more.  And it's so important too.  I couldn't understand why you were all over the place on this.  

Please post on one thread where you've most of the story all the details on one post so that we can see the issues.  Basically you don't want to go UK bankrupt because you live there and the implications it has on adoptions/job etc.  

Maybe you should do a new thread. I suggest, 'UK based but do not want to go bankrupt here '

Something that we've never had to look at on AAM before.


----------



## munchy

Thanks so much Bronte. I didnt think to mention non-financial stuff and have found myself asking questions on old threads so my name is popping up a lot. Declaring bankruptcy in the UK is much more complicated than I had initially thought especially in order to create a new life here. Ive always had an impeccable credit record and been the goody-goody all my life so its very hard to imagine an officer of the courts watching over my shoulder for 3 years, and professionally it is harder as I sometimes do make appearances as an expert witness type and cant if I am bankrupt, and it generally casts a very dark shadow over all that we do. Sadly my husband is also in a financial hole and has lost so much, and also fighting with creditors. 

EBS's letter last week sent me into a spin of research because I really believed that we had come to an arrangement because I had had a verbal positive, and so to hear they were handing me over to their legal team really set me into motion. I hope we can pull back from their legal team and I can come to an arrangement with the bank instead. Surely a judge would be surprised to see a case come before him where the debtor was actually still making monthly payments, albeit less than the interest?

Edited to add: Oops, yes, sorry I realise that this is the banking thread so Ill focus elsewhere.


----------



## A bit confused

Hi Guys,

I have a question regarding this same topic.

A few months a go I had to go see a doctor in Ireland, Paid the doctor with out any problems. Instead they couldn't help me and send me to the Hospital. There I had to spend my day. After that, just got some medicine prescribed (what the previous doctor should have done). But noticed they had my last name spelled wrong by 1 letter. 
Now they have been sending me letters to pay an amount of 380, which if i knew in advance i would never agreed on. This is ridiculous for just prescribing some medicine. I have been ignoring there letters. But this time this company called BROWNE LEGAL send me a letter that if I don't pay within 7 days they will continue with legal procedures. I need some advice, and to know if it's worth it, ignoring them.
A few facts; I am not registered in Ireland (only at the PPS office with a different address). (They have my address because i had to fill in a form at the doctors office.
                  I don't have a Irish bank account or subscription   
                  My only assets here in Ireland are my Playstation, laptop and clothes


----------

