# House being sold directly by owners - but way overpriced



## Drakon (30 Apr 2014)

My wife and I are in the market for a house and we've seen one we fancy.
The downside is that it's not being sold via an estate agent.  It's being sold directly by the owner.

We like the house.  It has five bedrooms and the area is 1,500 sq ft but the price is €235k, which is unchanged since it was originally advertised 2 years ago.

There is a house one mile up the road, five bedrooms and the area is 3,800 sq ft for €240k.
There are other houses in the locality that for that size are less than €200k, and their ads on Daft show their prices decreasing over the years since first advertised.

It seems that the estate agents are clued into the market (being professional house sellers) whereas the owner doesn't seem clued in at all.

Obviously, we could just buy the house up the road that's twice the size, but it's not our preferred option.  We'd prefer our first choice but get the impression that the owner just isn't up to speed on the reality of the situation.

The house up the road, asking price is €240k, we reckon it's worth €200k, and will put in a bid of €150k.
The house we're interested in, asking price is €235k, we reckon it's worth €150k, and will put in a bid of €110k.  But this seems so small an offer; not because is it, but because the asking price is unrealistic relative to other properties in the area.

What to do?  Any opinions?  I'm sure that if there was an estate agent selling it the asking price would be about €175k.


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## PaddyBloggit (30 Apr 2014)

I think you and the seller are too far apart and won't come to an agreed price.

Offering €110k will only create a bad first impression.

Buy the one up the road.


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## Brendan Burgess (30 Apr 2014)

Don't make an offer which will completely insult them. 

Be honest. Tell them that you really like the house and prefer it to others, but the others are much cheaper.  Wish them luck getting €235k and invite them to get back in touch if they reduce the price, significantly. 

If you offer €150k on a house you reckon is worth €200k, they will probably think  you are a messer.  My understanding is that auctioneers are now quoting low prices and expect a bidding war above the advertised price. 



> It seems that the estate agents are clued into the market (being  professional house sellers) whereas the owner doesn't seem clued in at  all.


It is also possible that they are clued in, and you are not. 

Brendan


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## Drakon (1 May 2014)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Be honest. Tell them that you really like the house and prefer it to others, but the others are much cheaper.



Yeah, I was thinking this.  If I show them a few nearby properties from Daft, of same size and bedrooms, and the disparity in the asking price for this one property ("everybody's out of line except my Johnny"), they may not be insulted.
My other fear is that because they're selling it themselves, to move "moving to a restored property nearby", that they have an emotional tie.  A bit like people that inherit shares and are unwilling to sell them.


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## twofor1 (1 May 2014)

Brendan Burgess said:


> My understanding is that auctioneers are now quoting low prices and expect a bidding war above the advertised price.



 This is certainly true in some areas, I live in south Dublin, two houses on my road caused traffic jams recently at viewing times.

 Both sold for 20% above the asking price.


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## Seagull (1 May 2014)

Belton said:


> The house up the road, asking price is €240k, we reckon it's worth €200k, and will put in a bid of €150k.
> The house we're interested in, asking price is €235k, we reckon it's worth €150k, and will put in a bid of €110k. But this seems so small an offer; not because is it, but because the asking price is unrealistic relative to other properties in the area.


I realise you want to put in a bid lower than you're prepared to pay, but I think going in that much lower than you think it's worth, let alone the asking price, you'll just be dismissed as a chancer.


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## sadie (1 May 2014)

For starters, stop speculating about what is going on in their heads. Doing that is no use to you at all. Stick with your own situation and don't try to second guess stuff. 
Secondly, if it looks like a rat and smells like a rat it is a rat. 
For all you know the house may not actually be properly for sale at all. They may only be 'thinking about it'. They could be doing it to make it look like they are selling their assets to make people they owe money too stop harrassing them. 
Look at the property price database (nprsa). 
Look at how much you can afford. What is your walkaway price. Then offer something below that to allow for wiggle room. They have to feel they got as much out of you as they can, so allow for 'we can't afford much more than that' with your first offer. Horrify them with your first offer so the next offer seems much much better. Be pleasantly firm rather than aggressively rigid.eg. the market suggests 100k but we like the house so we are prepared to start at 110k (or whatever). 

Have you viewed the house yet? If not it could have a really bad kitchen or layout that might cost you thousands to put the way you want. 

Go and view the house. 
Ask the sellers why they are moving. Ask them when they are moving. 
Ask them how much interest they have had. 
you could ask them why they chose to sell it themselves, that'd be a revealing conversation. 
Ask which solicitor will they be using for the sale. That'll tell you if they are serious. And will show them you are serious.
Look around the house and see does it look like a house someone is really moving out of. They may or may not be telling the truth. You won't find that out until the offer is accepted. Or even till your solicitor requests the contracts.
Make a Business case for your first offer, have some figures prepared so its not you that is telling them as such. Say you can only offer what the market suggests and what you can afford.  
You could get your solicitor to make the offers on your behalf either especially if the owners are acting the maggot and being really cagey or difficult.


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## Brendan Burgess (1 May 2014)

sadie said:


> For starters, stop speculating about what is going on in their heads. ...
> 
> They could be doing it to make it look like they are selling their assets to make people they owe money too stop harrassing them.
> ...
> ...



Hi Sadie

You seem to be doing an awful lot of speculating yourself. 

The OP has to speculate about why they are looking for so much. 

It's quite possible that they asked a few auctioneers who valued the house much lower than the sellers' own valuation. 

I suppose it's possible that they are not really selling the house, but I think that is unlikely.  The OP has to assume that the house is genuinely for sale. 

Agree fully with building up a good case for the amount to offer. 

The sellers may be messers, so maybe it's best to simply tell them it's overpriced and move on.


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## finnie (1 May 2014)

It's their house. They can ask whatever they want for it. They mightn't get it but they can ask.

There's a lot of psychology tied up in house buying/ selling and sometimes we lose sight of that human dimension.

You offer what you think the house is worth. They will reject or accept. 

If they reject you walk away or increase by five thousand. It really is that simple.
It is their house and your money.


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## Brendan Burgess (2 May 2014)

I think it's only that simple if there the gap between the buyer and seller is not too large. 

In this case,it appears that the seller appears to be way out of touch.  If they want to sell the house, they will have to reduce the price. The buyer should stay on good terms with them so that they come back to him, when they become more realistic. 



> The house we're interested in, asking price is €235k, we reckon it's worth €150k, and will put in a bid of €110k.



You could ask a friend to pretend to be interested in the house and make an offer of €110k.  Then you could come in with an offer of €130k and you will be seen as less offensive. 

Brendan


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## Dr.Debt (2 May 2014)

I'm aware of a house that sold recently after sitting on the market for two years. Local wisdom dictated that the value of the house was 280,000 and the vendors had it for sale at 350,000. It sold two weeks ago at 339,000.The house is in a desirable area where houses are selling fast.

I think the moral of the story is that sometimes a desirable house in a desirable area, where supply is very limited  will fetch an extraordinary price if the vendors are willing to sit it out and wait for the "right buyer"

Its amazing, but apparently some buyers will pay above the odds to get a nice house and money alone or value are not always the primary considerations. You only need to find one buyer.


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## sadie (2 May 2014)

You are right Brendan, I often catch myself not taking my own advice re speculating what's going on in other people's heads. 
I was on the receiving end myself of two house-buying attempts where the owners backed out of the deals when we were well into the process. Also I have been in a few bidding wars.
The price issue could be any number of reasons. Speculating about what they are doesn't better prepare us for the pain of a disappointing outcome. Only thing we can do is accept that house-buying is an emotional roller-coaster of a process but it is worth that pain in the end!
And if this process doesn't work out, the experience of it will be an asset going into the next negotiation.


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## terrysgirl33 (2 May 2014)

DH was talking to a neighbour who sold their house recently.  It sold very quickly for above the asking price.  I know this is Lucan, and that prices and markets are very local, but prices here have come up sharply.


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## Sunny (2 May 2014)

It's a bit insulting to assume that the sellers aren't clued in to the situation. They can go on daft just as easily as you do. I know people who have put their property up for sale at a price that they will sell at but are in no rush to sell. The price is more expensive than other properties in the area but they don't care. People have viewed and made offers which have been rejected. The sellers aren't messing anyone about. They are not forcing anyone to view the house or make an offer. They have been very open about the price they want and as far as they concerned, that's that. 

If you think it is overpriced, move on. It's that simple.


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## monagt (2 May 2014)

> It's their house. They can ask whatever they want for it. They mightn't get it but they can



+1 
Its their house and they can ask what they want - Price depends on what its worth to the buyer.
Maybe the sale price is set and they don't need to sell.



> it's a bit insulting to assume that the sellers aren't clued in to the situation.  ...if you think it is overpriced, move on. It's that simple.



Good Comment + good advice


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## stonecoldk (2 May 2014)

Offer what you feel the property is worth €150k & let the sellers stew over it. If its been up for sale for 2 years at same price, they aren't in a rush to sell.
This mini bubble is really only affecting Dublin (SCD especially) if the house is outside Dublin, ignore all the VI spin of increasing prices & don;t panic buy.
My 2c as i'm currently buying in Dublin, luckily with a house I view as good value (€212 per sq ft).


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## Drakon (2 May 2014)

I'll gladly accept that I'm speculating.  Aren't many of us?

I suppose part of my problem is that if it was an estate agent I could easily come straight out and say "All other houses in this locatation, with five bedrooms, of an area of about 1,500 square feet, on a half acre, are asking €125k to €160k.  Why is this so much more?"  But to say this to the sellers may be insulting.  Despite the fact that if they were employing the prefessional services of an estate agent, the latter would probably (maybe) advised them an asking price of €160k.  (Yes, I'm speculating).
I want to convey this query but in a subtle manner.




Brendan Burgess said:


> In this case,it appears that the seller appears to be way out of touch.  If they want to sell the house, they will have to reduce the price. The buyer should stay on good terms with them so that they come back to him, when they become more realistic.


Yes, this is it.  Good terms is vital.  Even if we don't buy it, we may but the one up the road.  We'll be neighbours!  And, of course, they're moving to a restored house somewhere nearby.


Brendan Burgess said:


> You could ask a friend to pretend to be interested in the house and make an offer of €110k.  Then you could come in with an offer of €130k and you will be seen as less offensive.


I should have mentioned that this is in rural Munster.  House prices are still dropping.  I'd say if it was a case of "...waiting an hour for the 46A, then two come at once..." they might see thru' it.



Dr.Debt said:


> I'm aware of a house that sold recently after sitting on the market for two years.


Was it sold directly by the owners or via an agent?  The crux of my post is not so much the price, but how to bring up the topic of the asking price being 50% more than similar properties.



Sunny said:


> I know people who have put their property up for sale at a price that they will sell at but are in no rush to sell.





monagt said:


> Its their house and they can ask what they want - Price depends on what its worth to the buyer.
> Maybe the sale price is set and they don't need to sell.



True.  They've been in it for 20 years.  Actually, 22.5 years if you include the time it's been on the market.  Back them most mortgages were 20 years maximum.  Unless they re-mortgaged during the boom the don't have repayments and don't need to sell.

Thanks for all the comments.  It's helped me get inside the sellers head.  Not that I want to get inside, just the try to understand the 50% premium.


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## 44brendan (2 May 2014)

There is a lot of speculation in your posts which is based on assumptions. You could walk away from this property, which potentially you could have bought for the price you had in mind, purely because you have persuaded yourself that the sellers will not come back significantly from their asking price. making an offer well below the asking price is not an insult. The seller will quickly let you know if you are in a ballpark for negotiation. Why would any seller be offended at a genuine offer, even if it was well below their asking price?


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## Sunny (2 May 2014)

44brendan said:


> There is a lot of speculation in your posts which is based on assumptions. You could walk away from this property, which potentially you could have bought for the price you had in mind, purely because you have persuaded yourself that the sellers will not come back significantly from their asking price. making an offer well below the asking price is not an insult. The seller will quickly let you know if you are in a ballpark for negotiation. Why would any seller be offended at a genuine offer, even if it was well below their asking price?


 
If I had a house on the market for €235k and someone came for a viewing and then offered €110k, I would be peeved off. If everyone did that, people selling their house would be inundated with people wanting to view. My budget is €200k but sure I will go and check out the €500k house and slap in a €200k bid for the craic. It's time wasting.


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## Bronte (2 May 2014)

Belton said:


> I suppose part of my problem is that if it was an estate agent I could easily come straight out and say
> 
> .


 
You are making problems where there are none. The fact there is no professional estate agent is irrelevant. 

You want to buy the house, they want to sell it, it's all very simple. If your purchase price is not their minimum selling price than you don't get the property. Whether their asking price is over the price you are willing to pay or is overvalued is not relevant. They will only sell at a price they want to.


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## Butter (2 May 2014)

OP - If you believe the house is worth €150k despite the asking price of €235, why would you bother offering €110k. That's just a waste of everyone's time. 

You could assume the owners are mortgage free after 22.5 years. They could just as easily have remortgaged for €200k in the boom times to buy a villa in Bulgaria. Who knows? 

If you're serious about buying the house, start the ball rolling by offering a sum that will start the dialogue going. €110k is not going to do you any favours as they are obviously not in a rush to sell.


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## Drakon (2 May 2014)

Butter said:


> You could assume the owners are mortgage free after 22.5 years. They could just as easily have remortgaged for €200k in the boom times to buy a villa in Bulgaria. Who knows?



Have I not speculated on this:



Belton said:


> Unless they re-mortgaged during the boom the don't have repayments and don't need to sell.


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## Drakon (2 May 2014)

Sunny said:


> If I had a house on the market for €235k and someone came for a viewing and then offered €110k, I would be peeved off. If everyone did that, people selling their house would be inundated with people wanting to view. My budget is €200k but sure I will go and check out the €500k house and slap in a €200k bid for the craic. It's time wasting.



I don't consider it time wasting, I consider it negotiation.  Are you seriously trying to tell me you've never negotiated a price on anything?  I realise there are certain places where it's not on, and isn't going to work, and will be "time wasting", such as in a supermarket or in a bar, or in a "large multiple retailer".
But I always negotiate on certain classes of items:
I bought a jeep last year: a hard bargain and I didn't save much.
Furniture, both for my house (as a landlord) and where I'm currently renting: saved a packet.
Garden machinery: "we'll have a vat off sale next month, come back then".
That's just three that spring to mind, but in the right environment I'll always drop in "are you flexible on the price", and take it from there.  I've never had a "no" response.  The tightest I've got is "margins are tight".

Now that the recession is over they no longer harp on about how to save money on the radio, but a couple of years ago this was always one suggested on Marian Finucane and the like.


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## Drakon (2 May 2014)

Bronte said:


> You want to buy the house, they want to sell it, it's all very simple. If your purchase price is not their minimum selling price than you don't get the property. Whether their asking price is over the price you are willing to pay or is overvalued is not relevant. They will only sell at a price they want to.



But what if they think this is the going rate?  It may have been when they originally advertised it 2-and-a-half years ago.  But (outside of Dublin) the market has continued to fall.

The going rate has dropped.  (No speculation there!)


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## Brendan Burgess (2 May 2014)

> I should have mentioned that this is in rural Munster.  House prices are  still dropping.


Then the prices are all not easily comparable. If you are looking at similar houses in an estate in Cork City - you can say one is out of line. But you can't say that about one off houses.

There is no correct price.  One might be forced to sell in a hurry at well below what they think it's worth. So wait  to buy from someone like that. 



> I'd say if it was a case of "...waiting an hour for  the 46A, then two come at once..." they might see thru' it.


Well you can be quite sure that when you make a bid, they will suddenly have another bidder out of the blue.


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## Drakon (2 May 2014)

Sunny said:


> If I had a house on the market for €235k and someone came for a viewing and then offered €110k, I would be peeved off.



I've had another read of your post and would like to quiz you a little.  Not to peev you off, but just to bounce a ball, if I may.

Say, as you suggest, you have a house on the market for €235k.  And I approached you and said, "we like the house, and we're interested in making an offer.  But there's one thing I can't get my head around.  We've viewed a few other houses in the area that are four and five bedroom, in the 1500 sq feet ballpark, on half acres.  They're all outside the town a bit as well, and like this, they don't need much work; just cosmetic.  They're all in-and-around €150k.  I just dunno where the €235k is coming from.
I printed off a few from Daft...."  etc etc.
So, I haven't mentioned the figure in my head, ie €110k.  Do you reckon the above paragraph would soften the blow a little?  Or should I let the "going asking rate of €150" sink in for a day or two.


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## Drakon (2 May 2014)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Then the prices are all not easily comparable. If you are looking at similar houses in an estate in Cork City - you can say one is out of line. But you can't say that about one off houses.



True enough.  But I gotta know what I'm missing.  Though these one-offs are all different in may ways, they do have similarities, ie, location, number of bedrooms, square footage, site size.  Is there fracking rights or what?





Brendan Burgess said:


> Well you can be quite sure that when you make a bid, they will suddenly have another bidder out of the blue.



I rarely use "lol", but I did actually laugh out loud.


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## Brendan Burgess (2 May 2014)

Belton said:


> Say, as you suggest, you have a house on the market for €235k.  And I approached you and said, "we like the house, and we're interested in making an offer.  But there's one thing I can't get my head around.  We've viewed a few other houses in the area that are four and five bedroom, in the 1500 sq feet ballpark, on half acres.  They're all outside the town a bit as well, and like this, they don't need much work; just cosmetic.  They're all in-and-around €150k.  I just dunno where the €235k is coming from.
> I printed off a few from Daft...."  etc etc.
> .



That is a great approach.  Don't make an offer, but ask them to justify the asking price.  Try to visit them in person rather than to do it over the phone.


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## sadie (2 May 2014)

I would just go and view the house. One thing at a time. There is obviously not a line of buyers queueing up there. 
View the house. Then start thinking about what to offer.


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## Sunny (2 May 2014)

Belton said:


> I don't consider it time wasting, I consider it negotiation. Are you seriously trying to tell me you've never negotiated a price on anything? I realise there are certain places where it's not on, and isn't going to work, and will be "time wasting", such as in a supermarket or in a bar, or in a "large multiple retailer".
> But I always negotiate on certain classes of items:
> I bought a jeep last year: a hard bargain and I didn't save much.
> Furniture, both for my house (as a landlord) and where I'm currently renting: saved a packet.
> ...


 
Of course I have negotiated. Have I ever seen an ad for a nice second hand Audi for sale for €50k and gone to see it and then offered €20k? No, I haven't. If the seller puts a stupid price up on the website, why I should waste my time pointing it out to them or waste their time by going to see the car and then making an offer that we both know they won't accept.


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## Drakon (2 May 2014)

Thanks for the contributions, these will feed my thoughts.  Enjoy the BHW.


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## Jim2007 (2 May 2014)

Belton said:


> But what if they think this is the going rate?  It may have been when they originally advertised it 2-and-a-half years ago.  But (outside of Dublin) the market has continued to fall.
> 
> The going rate has dropped.  (No speculation there!)



Why would you assume that someone who has had a house on the market for over two years, are unaware of current market conditions???  It is hard to imagine anyone would put a house on the market and then ignore newspaper article on the topic, every local sale and so on...

If it were me, I would start with the assumption they are under no pressure to sell and are comfortable waiting it out.  That being the case, making an offer that is less than half the asking price is more likely to cause them to dismiss you out of hand as a joker, rather than engage you in negotiations.


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## michaelm (2 May 2014)

Belton said:


> What to do?  Any opinions?  I'm sure that if there was an estate agent selling it the asking price would be about €175k.


If you are right then they are clowning; if they are right then you are clowning.  Either way one of you is clowning.  I think you need a serious seller and a serious buyer to do a deal.


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## Drakon (6 May 2014)

Before going to view the house today, I went thru' all the rural houses in the locality on Daft, of five bedroom houses, and of all those between 1200 and 1800 square feet.
Five bedrooms (6) ranged from €50k to €250, averaged €180k.
Similar square footage houses (13) ranged from €60k to €285k, averaged €170k.  
Despite ignoring this disparity, I won't be putting in a bid, the house is just too pokey.  Most rooms are on the small side.  For example, there are five bedrooms: one "master bedroom" and four "box rooms".  It would be nice to have more than one room with a double/queen/king bed.
Nothing jumped out as the reason it costs so much more.
It turns out that much of the wood, including doors, floors, cabinets, etc., was done by the man of the house.  I'm certainly leaning towards the emotional attachment possibility.
When I asked about the BER, they didn't have one and didn't seem that bothered.  I thought this was a requirement but maybe not.


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## newirishman (6 May 2014)

Belton said:


> Before going to view the house today, I went thru' all the rural houses in the locality on Daft, of five bedroom houses, and of all those between 1200 and 1800 square feet.
> Five bedrooms (6) ranged from €50k to €250, averaged €180k.
> Similar square footage houses (13) ranged from €60k to €285k, averaged €170k.
> Despite ignoring this disparity, I won't be putting in a bid, the house is just too pokey.  Most rooms are on the small side.  For example, there are five bedrooms: one "master bedroom" and four "box rooms".  It would be nice to have more than one room with a double/queen/king bed.
> ...



They must have a BER cert if they want to sell. It is a legal requirement.

They seller can ask what ever price s/he likes. You can chose to pay the price, or try to negotiate a cheaper price. If you can't negotiate a cheaper price and are not ready to pay asking, move on. There is no point arguing, really.


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## delgirl (7 May 2014)

Jim2007 said:


> Why would you assume that someone who has had a house on the market for over two years, are unaware of current market conditions???  It is hard to imagine anyone would put a house on the market and then ignore newspaper article on the topic, every local sale and so on....


You would be surprised at some people's attitudes to their homes.

A friend of mine wanted to sell her house in 2008 and approached 3 local estate agents for valuations.  They all came in at between €720,000 and €750,000.

My friend felt her house was worth 'a million' and told the estate agents so.  They laughed and didn't take the sale on.

She decided to sell it herself on daft and another sell-it-yourself website and put it on the market in May 2008 for €945,000, despite similar properties in the area being on for around €695,000 - €750,000.

Needless to say, there were no buyers and the price was dropped to €680,000 in 2010.  By this time, values in the area had plummeted and the seller was again chasing the market and being totally unrealistic in her demands.

The property was further reduced in 2012 to €445,000 and was eventually sold in 2013 for €420,000.

There was no talking to her, I tried to help her, her family tried to help her, but she was convinced she was right and ended up with less than she paid for the house in the first place due to her unrealistic expectations.


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## Brendan Burgess (7 May 2014)

Belton said:


> Before going to view the house today, .



You mean that we have been wasting the collective intelligence of askaboutmoney users on strategies for a house you hadn't even seen?   



> My wife and I are in the market for a house and we've seen one we fancy.
> 
> We like the house.  It has five bedrooms and the area is 1,500 sq ft


I had assumed that you had actually seen the house.

The house hunting process takes up a lot of energy. You can save a lot of energy by viewing houses before you decide how much to bid as in most cases, you won't want to bid.


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## Drakon (7 May 2014)

Brendan Burgess said:


> You can save a lot of energy by viewing houses before you decide how much to bid as in most cases, you won't want to bid.



True enough, but I'm still perplexed by the price.

No, no wasting, it was all taken on board.  The house is both advertised on Daft and has its own website.  When I parked in the driveway I even said it to my wife, "this all looks so familiar".  Probably a good thing.

Went to view one other house yesterday and did four or five "drive-bys".  The latter save a lot of time if you suspect some no-go issues.  For example, we knew that one of them was near a golf club.  Turns out that it was immediately across the road and the car park was very busy for a showery Tuesday afternoon.  I'd imagine the weekend traffic is a nightmare.


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## sadie (7 May 2014)

Don't forget to also be checking the NPRSA register of actual sales figures regularly as well:
[broken link removed]
If its a rural area that you are not familiar with it is harder to know where the houses that appear in the Property price register are.


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## MarySmyth (7 May 2014)

*House price*

Unsure what issue is here - Sellers can sell for whatever they wish- no rule against it? Perhaps, they don't even want to sell...

If there are cheaper houses elsewhere, why don;t you buy them- or has this particular house got a 'x factor' that makes it worth the extra...


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## Dinny (7 May 2014)

Sometimes sellers use the figure that is still owing on their mortgage as the selling price even though it has no real relevance.

It is only relevant if they cannot afford the short fall if they are in negative equity


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## Drakon (21 May 2014)

MarySmyth said:


> Sellers can sell for whatever they wish- no rule against it?



I don't think this is actually the case.  They can sell it for more than it's worth if they wish.  However, in some circumstances they cannot sell it for less than it's worth; e.g. if it is mortgaged the bank has an interest.  Also, Revenue will take a reduced stamp duty hit if a property is sold for less than it's worth.  I believe there have been scenarios where alarm bells have rung with Revenue is such cases.


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