# 4 Penalty Points & €400 fine - Never got speeding letter or summons



## MsGinger (24 Nov 2006)

Hi All,

My hubby recently got some post from an old address (in Mayo, we are now living in Dublin).  One letter contained a €400 fine and 4 penalty points for his old vehicle, which he traded in last January, so it goes back a good while.  Apparently this went to court, but he knew nothing about it until he got this letter so obviously did not show up.

How does he go about appealing it and is there any chance that either the fine or the penalty points will be reduced in these circumstances?

Thanks,
Ginger


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## ajapale (24 Nov 2006)

Has he spoken to a solicitor?


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## Vanilla (24 Nov 2006)

What was the offence? Did he commit the offence? What was the date of the court?


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## dahamsta (24 Nov 2006)

Some cases were just thrown out because people claimed they didn't receive notification letters; because they weren't sent via registered mail.

However this sounds different, as summons' ARE delivered via registered mail, or by a Garda. So someone must have signed for or received it.

adam


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## MsGinger (24 Nov 2006)

He hasn't spoken to his solicitor yet - does he have to go through a solicitor or can he just appeal it himself?

It was for a speeding offence last November, he did own the vehicle at the time so he can only assume it was him driving it, although he can't remember back that far.

I'm not sure of the court date, but I think it was in the last couple of months.

The address the car was registered to (hubby owns the house) has been occupied by tenants, so if one of them had signed for it but not forwarded it, would this still be classified as him having received it?


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## monkeyboy (24 Nov 2006)

Hi Ginger

I was pulled by the cops a while ago. My licence has an old address on it. He indicated that it was my responsibility to ensure that my records are up to date ( seems reasonable ). Therfore then I may also have received fines etc in the post from automated cameras and I dont know.

I was due 2 points, he took my current address but 2 months later still no sign.

There is a way of checking your "acc", I intend to follow up whether I have any activity on my old address and I suppose I had better update my current details.


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## MsGinger (24 Nov 2006)

Yeah, I was wondering if that would be the case re: updating details...

I would have presumed that the details would come from the vehicle licencing cert rather than driver's licence though?  My own drivers licence is c. 8 yrs old, and I've moved loads since I got it!


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## gearoidmm (24 Nov 2006)

Similar problem, I changed address and didn't update my cara details until last month.  Went into the tax office in Dublin and changed the addresss no problem (and got new registration documents).  This was after queuing for 1 hour to pay for said documents.

Then went upstairs to the Garda section and asked them if I could check if there were any fines outstanding on the car to be told that I could certainly and that it would cost a nominal fee but I would have to go back downstairs and queue again to pay (the queue had now doubled).

Bugger that.  If there's anything there, I suppose they'll find me eventually.


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## oopsbuddy (24 Nov 2006)

On a related but different point, I thought I was obliged to change my UK licence for an Irish one, but when I went to tax office to do so, the nice lady told me to hold onto it til I was 65 (when it expires) and then get an Irish one. My address on the licence is a VERY OLD UK address, but she insisted I did not need to change cos it is an EU licence. Saves me the cost of a licence renewal til I'm 65. Penalty points also (I only have 2) add up until age 65 or whenever I take out an Irish licence.


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## mmclo (26 Nov 2006)

You have nothing to loose by appealing and do not need a solicitor. Tell your story pure and simple in the circuit court. You may have missed the time for appealing but it can be extended with a bit of work and you need a peace commissioner to sign the documents. The ct. can't reduce the points, only overturn the entire conviction, thus leading to the Dept. of Transport recinding them all.

There are other similar posts on the board so maybe check them out


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## bond-007 (27 Nov 2006)

You may wish to check out the Waterford cases from last week.


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## MsGinger (28 Nov 2006)

Thanks bond-007 - can you tell me where I would find info on the Waterford cases?

He has a hearing at the circuit court tomorrow but he was told by the Garda when he went to arrange it that he was wasting his time.


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## bond-007 (28 Nov 2006)

That's just intimidation to put you off. 

The Waterford cases involve the requirement to produce the original copy of the offence in court by the Garda. It was discovered that this can't happen as the fines are handled by a third party. Also the service of the notice by normal post has been called into question also. Result cases dismissed. Read the details here.

Good Luck tomorrow


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## baby_tooth (28 Nov 2006)

from experience, they don't have to send out the summons by registered post, they don't have to send out anything...personally find it bizarre that this is the case, but alas so.

You can fight it in court and would be best getting a solicitor to do so. Try and contact the gaurd issuing the summons and ask him if he is willing to strike the summons and sort it out between both parites, 

But if you end up having to fight it in court, you will have to pay legal fees as it's next to nigh impossible to recover costs on matters such as this.


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## bond-007 (28 Nov 2006)

To late to be talking to Gardai (I find this to be generally a complete waste of your time and it only encourages the Garda to get things right) , this is a circuit court appeal.  

With the case on tomorrow you won't find a solicitor/barrister to take it on at short notice. And even if you win you won't get your costs from the state, so there is really nothing to loose by doing it yourself.


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## adorado (28 Nov 2006)

Apparently those documents are sent by a private company and not by the Gardai, therefore, there is no way they can prove if the letters were sent or not, and there aren't copies of the originals. 

If you go to court, ask for the original of that letter and they'll drop the case. 

This was discussed on the radio last week (The last word).


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## MsGinger (29 Nov 2006)

Thanks for all the info everyone, it turns out today was just an appearance in court to see if he would be allowed to appeal it at a later date.  He was granted the right to appeal so I will get clued up on all this info before then.

Thanks again.


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## mmclo (29 Nov 2006)

If you have a bit of time do some research, my experience is the state solicitors are woefully badly prepared.

Check out all the references to legislation on the summons etc. see http://www.bailii.org make sure there isn't a mistake

There are a number of cases on summons for example DPPvClein use the references to other cases in these to find the ones most favourable to your circumstances. Some cases are on the internet.

Get along to a good library and get a few books, Robert Pierce on road traffic law or something more general on criminal law if the summons is the issue

NB: To deal with the points you will need to fully overturn the conviction!

A well argued case quoting the legislation and referring to one or two cases and you have a chance depending on the judge of course, but this is a bit better in circuit ct. Remember it is your absolute constitutional right to represent yourslef and the court should facilitate you.

Final tip, get in early to get a feel for proceedure and the personality/mood of judge

Well that's how I did it anyway


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## mmclo (29 Nov 2006)

Actually the Clein case in more about when an error on a summons can be validated, but still if you search for it you can get plenty more similar ones


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## mmclo (29 Nov 2006)

From another post

***

District Court Rules 1997. Order 10 r 5 in regard to the procedure of serving summonses, provides:

Quote:

"...shall be effected upon a person in the State by delivering to that person a copy thereof or by leaving a copy thereof or by leaving the copy for that person at his or her last or most usual place of abode, or at his or her office, shop, factory, home or place of business with that person's husband or wife, as the case may be or with a child or other relative (apparently residing with that person) of that person or of his wife or her husband as the case may be, or with any agent, clerk, servant or employee of that person, or with the person in charge of the house or premises wherein that person usually resides, provided that the person (other than the person upon whom service is to be efected) with whom the opy is left is not under the age of sixteen years and is not the person instituting proceedings"


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## MsGinger (30 Nov 2006)

Cheers mmclo for all that info, I'll pass it on to him.


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