# 17 leading business people submit blueprint for recovery



## Brendan Burgess (15 Mar 2011)

*Group of 17 leading figures submits blueprint for recovery*

from Simon Carswell in today's Irish Times:




> The group, which is chaired by businessman Philip Lynch
> and the chief  executive of the Rehab Group, Angela Kerins,
> 
> 
> ...


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## Brendan Burgess (15 Mar 2011)

That is a pretty impressive group taking from the left and the right of the political divide as well as very successful business people.


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## Firefly (15 Mar 2011)

Looking forward to seeing the content of this report I must say. Hope it gets published soon. 


Looks promising and interesting that prominent members of the left/protested industries are calling for even more cuts than the Snip Nua report...it's starting to be obvious to most now the kind of cuts we need. 

I found the following snippet particularly interesting:

"Among the targets suggested is that 20 per cent of foreign direct investment should be sourced from south east Asia by 2015."

We are very heavily dependant on US multi-nationals. They  have served us well in the past but like our historic dependancy on the  UK we need to diversify further.


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## Chris (15 Mar 2011)

> More than 200,000 jobs can be created, the group argues, by developing five sectors – manufacturing, tourism, agriculture, life sciences and information and communications technology.


While the devil is in the detail this does sound like attention grabbing. Government cannot create a single job, all it can do is improve the environment for private businesses to operate in, and that simply means lowering the burden the state places on businesses through taxation. But I don't think they wrote 38 pages on just saying that.
So, I would bet on the plan including lots of "government investment" and "stimulation" of certain industries,which basically means taking money out of one pocket (at the same time dropping some) to put in the other and claiming to be wealthier for it. Saying that, I do like the comments about NAMA, government spending cuts and BoI and AIB.
Anyway, I'll reserve judgment and would be very very happy to be proven wrong.

The article says that the report is private, anyone hear if or when this will be made available to the public?


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## Baggie (15 Mar 2011)

That's the second time this shower have come out with this 'plan'. It's basically the FG election campaign.

And whose on the 'left' - not Spring surely!


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## Purple (15 Mar 2011)

It’s a very impressive list of people.
Peter Sutherland is the most successful Irish businessman ever. When he was Chairman of BP it was worth nearly a quarter of a trillion pounds. He’s a former attorney general, a qualified barrister, he’s been appointed as an economic advisor to places as diverse as Hong Kong to the Vatican and he’s heavily involved with the UN. He’s also been involved at board level with Goldman Sachs, RBS and ABB. He was also Chairman of GATT (now the World Trade Organisation).


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## Green (15 Mar 2011)

*Opinions on A Blueprint for Ireland’s Recovery?*

[broken link removed]

I notice this article in today's Irish Times and wondered what people opinions are on it?


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## RMCF (15 Mar 2011)

YOBR said:


> [broken link removed]
> 
> I notice this article in today's Irish Times and wondered what people opinions are on it?



Can't really have an opinion when its being kept private, can we?


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## changes (16 Mar 2011)

I wonder is there much mention of tax avoidance in their patriotic proposals?

Maybe if a few of them choose to pay their taxes in ireland and set an example to the thousands of others who don't. That might be more of a help.


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## Chris (16 Mar 2011)

changes said:


> I wonder is there much mention of tax avoidance in their patriotic proposals?
> 
> Maybe if a few of them choose to pay their taxes in ireland and set an example to the thousands of others who don't. That might be more of a help.



Or maybe Ireland should stop punishing success by imposing punitive taxes on wealthy people. Why not lower taxation on wealthy people and attract more of them in order to take in more revenue? It has been proven time and again that increased taxation in the long run results in lower revenue.


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## shnaek (16 Mar 2011)

changes said:


> I wonder is there much mention of tax avoidance in their patriotic proposals?
> 
> Maybe if a few of them choose to pay their taxes in ireland and set an example to the thousands of others who don't. That might be more of a help.



Who are you talking about here? Irish emigrants? Or people who live in Ireland that don't pay taxes here?


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## changes (16 Mar 2011)

shnaek said:


> Who are you talking about here? Irish emigrants? Or people who live in Ireland that don't pay taxes here?


 
Irish people living here but paying their taxes elsewhere. 

They are bringing undue attention to themselves calling for people to take cuts etc while they decide to pay taxes outside the country.


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## changes (16 Mar 2011)

Chris said:


> Or maybe Ireland should stop punishing success by imposing punitive taxes on wealthy people.


 
Do we actually do that? Rich people have it fairly good here i would think.


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## Purple (16 Mar 2011)

changes said:


> Do we actually do that? Rich people have it fairly good here i would think.



Slightly out of date but Brendan gave a good summary of the issue in this key post.


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## Chris (16 Mar 2011)

changes said:


> Irish people living here but paying their taxes elsewhere.


If you live in Ireland you are liable to income tax in Ireland regardless of where your income comes from. The only way you can be paying taxes elsewhere is if you spend less than a certain amount of days in this country.



changes said:


> Do we actually do that? Rich people have it fairly good here i would think.



Do you call a 53% marginal rate a good deal when about 50% of people pay no income tax at all? If rich people had it good here then Ireland would be attracting wealthy individuals rather than losing them to countries like Switzerland, Hong Kong or the UAE.


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## ajapale (16 Mar 2011)

I think Perter Sutherland as former Independent Non-Executive Director, Member of Nominations Committee and Member of Remuneration Committee of the *Royal Bank of Scotlant* is part of the problem and not part of the solution.


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## Complainer (16 Mar 2011)

ajapale said:


> I think Perter Sutherland as former Independent Non-Executive Director, Member of Nominations Committee and Member of Remuneration Committee of the *Royal Bank of Scotlant* is part of the problem and not part of the solution.


Would this be the same Peter Sutherland who called for cutbacks in public sector spending while enjoying his €50k p.a. pension from his short spell as Attorney General?


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## Firefly (16 Mar 2011)

Complainer said:


> Would this be the same Peter Sutherland who called for cutbacks in public sector spending while enjoying his €50k p.a. pension from his short spell as Attorney General?



Doesn't mean he can't offer his opinion. 

Also, are you saying the pensions for public servants are too generous?


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## DerKaiser (16 Mar 2011)

Complainer said:


> Would this be the same Peter Sutherland who called for cutbacks in public sector spending while enjoying his €50k p.a. pension from his short spell as Attorney General?


 
Maybe the ridiculousness of such a pension has helped form his opinion!


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## Complainer (16 Mar 2011)

Firefly said:


> Doesn't mean he can't offer his opinion.


Maybe he should offer his pension before offering his opinion?


Firefly said:


> Also, are you saying the pensions for public servants are too generous?


The pension that he and 'retireing' Ministers availed of bears little relationship to the standard public servant pension. Nissan Micra Vs a Bentley.



DerKaiser said:


> Maybe the ridiculousness of such a pension has helped form his opinion!


Indeed - but would you not expect somebody in his position to practice what they preach?


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## DerKaiser (16 Mar 2011)

Chris said:


> So, I would bet on the plan including lots of "government investment" and "stimulation" of certain industries,which basically means taking money out of one pocket (at the same time dropping some) to put in the other and claiming to be wealthier for it.


 
I guess this would be no bad thing. If it created the right incentives it might lead to us becoming wealthier.

I would be slow to make deeper cuts than envisaged in the four year plan without knowing for certain that the redirected resources immediately would be effective in stimulating the domestic economy.


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## Firefly (16 Mar 2011)

Complainer said:


> Maybe he should offer his pension before offering his opinion?



Why should he...he's only claiming what he's entitled to. In the same way I wouldn't blame tax exiles from living off shore and I wouldn't blame people sitting on their rear ends instead of working....they're only all doing what they can get away with.

If there's a problem with with the set up then let's change the set up.



Complainer said:


> The pension that he and 'retireing' Ministers availed of bears little relationship to the standard public servant pension. Nissan Micra Vs a Bentley.



So which ones are fair and which ones aren't?


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## Chris (16 Mar 2011)

DerKaiser said:


> I guess this would be no bad thing. If it created the right incentives it might lead to us becoming wealthier.
> 
> I would be slow to make deeper cuts than envisaged in the four year plan without knowing for certain that the redirected resources immediately would be effective in stimulating the domestic economy.



But government does not know what the right incentives are or what the right industries are? The housing bubble is a perfect example of how wrong government steered economic incentives can go.

"Stimulation" should apply ubiquitously across all industries and all companies through a reduction in the burden of government taxes. Basic economics dictates that lower taxation means higher profitability, and higher profitability means more investment, higher real wages, lower product prices and overall better more economic activity.

And since government does not have money of its own, any "investment" by government is simply analogous to taking blood out of one arm, spilling some, and then pumping it into the other arm, and then claiming the whole undertaking has benefited the patient.


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## Ethan 1 (17 Mar 2011)

Given Peter Sutherland is non-executive Chairman of Goldman Sachs, should he not declare his conflict of interest.


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## Ancutza (17 Mar 2011)

> I wonder is there much mention of tax avoidance in their patriotic proposals?



What's wrong with tax avoidance???  It's completely legal.  You'd have to be a clown to offer to pay more than you have to.  If you choose to offer some of your hard-earned cash to a charitable organisation or give it away to what you feel is a needy cause then more power to your elbow!

Tax avoidance.  Bring it on! Tax evasion.  Stamp it out!


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## Purple (17 Mar 2011)

changes said:


> I wonder is there much mention of tax avoidance in their patriotic proposals?


 What, like stopping people claiming their medical expenses?





changes said:


> Maybe if a few of them choose to pay their taxes in ireland and set an example to the thousands of others who don't. That might be more of a help.


 Why should people who live, work and pay their taxes in another country also pay taxes here?
Do you think that the tens of thousands of Polish people who live and work here should pay taxes in Poland?


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## changes (17 Mar 2011)

Purple said:


> Why should people who live, work and pay their taxes in another country also pay taxes here?


 
I'm talking about people who clearly live here but spend the necessary number of days outside the country just to avoid paying their tax here. Of course its legal but that should change imo. Same inadequate rules that allowed developers transfer assets to their spouses to avoid paying what they owe.

I find it a bit much to be listening to lectures from the O'Brien's, the Desmond's and the Bono's of this world while they funnel their taxes elsewhere (legal i know).

These same people have large stakes in the irish media too so you hear very little about it. Plenty about leeching money out of ordinary people though.


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## dahamsta (17 Mar 2011)

Firefly said:


> they're only all doing what they can get away with



Charming. I reckon I could get away with murder, that ok with you too?


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## Purple (17 Mar 2011)

Here's an idea; why not wait to see the report and judge it on its merits?


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## onq (20 Mar 2011)

The one thing you're sure of with Peter S is that he is "connected"...

Good or bad - only time will tell, but I seem to recall a news articles saying that Goldman Sachs helped organize the $50Bn Greek loan and disguised it as a Sale fo Currency using derivatives.

Hardly playing fair or above board.

ONQ.


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## Firefly (21 Mar 2011)

dahamsta said:


> Charming. I reckon I could get away with murder, that ok with you too?



That was badly phrased I admit. I should have added _legally _to the end.


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## Complainer (22 Mar 2011)

Would this be the same Denis O'Brien who " made or facilitated payments to Mr. Lowry of £147,000 sterling, £300,000 sterling and a benefit equivalent to a payment in the form of Mr O'Brien's support for a loan of £420,000 sterling" according to Moriarty? And would this be the same Dermot Desmond who O'Brien brought into the Esat Dodgyfone deal after "Lowry is reported to have told O'Brien that Esat Digifone was in pole position in the competition but warned him of concerns about the company's financial position"?

Nice company these people keep.


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