# No Bill For Management Fees and haven't paid in years



## euro2000 (11 Mar 2008)

My elderly father lives in a block of apartments. He is the only owner ocupier living in the entire block of about 16 apartments. The remaining apartments are owned by the developer/builder and rented out. He is there more then 8 years.

There was originally managemnt fees, I think for the first year only. After that no bills came so my father did nothing.

The place hasn't been painted outside since it was built and overall it looks shabby. As he is paying no fees he can't ask to have it done up. 

As my father is comfortable and feels secure there we don't want to move him.

We tried to get insurance recently for the apartment but were told we couldn't as the management company would have the whole block insured.
Is this the norm, is there any way we could insure the apartment building ourselves?

Also is there anything else he should be worried about given the above situation?

Thanks


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## ontour (11 Mar 2008)

Most problems would arise in 'What If' situations where there needed  to be significant work carried out or there was a serious problem like burst pipes.  It should still be possible to insure the contents.

The main item that I would be concerned by is whether there are the appropriate fire alarms/ extinguishers etc.  If there is no active management company, it is likely that things such as fire safety may not be up to standard.


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## shesells (11 Mar 2008)

Sounds very dodgy!!

Will answer the easy part first - no your dad can't insure his apartment as he doesn't own the exterior walls. He probably doesn't own the apartment but instead has a thousand year lease or something like that.

As for what next. The CRO (Companies Registration Office) have a register of companies currently trading, that's a good place to start. They should be able to tell you when the company ceased trading if that is the case. The fact that your Dad does not seem to have heard about AGMs or anything like that is worrying as trading companies are bound to have one at least every 15 months. 

Having that information first is important before contacting the developer. Your Dad should also go through his lease/purchase agreement to see what that says about fees.

Depending on what you find out you may want to involve a solicitor.

Sorry my answer is vague but I hope it helps somewhat.


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## agencydude (11 Mar 2008)

Well you could try and find out what the name of the management company was and find out if the company still files annual returns on the cro.ie website.
When your father purchased the apartment he should have got legal documents giving details of the management company and what they did. 


If it doesn't  file annual returns then what this will probably mean is that the management company has closed down  or is no longer operating and if your father or anyone wants to sell an apartment they would have to pay the legal costs of setting up the managament company again and  paying any outstanding arrears.

For a block of apartments there usually is a lift that needs to be maintained , there is block insurance to pay , waste disposal bills to be paid and any common areas to be maintained. The management company would normally look after all of this. 

If the management company is not operating then to me, having no block insurance on the apartments sounds  a bit scary to me.
So I'd try and check things out if I were you. I'd first start going through the legal documents your father got when he purchased the apartment


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## euro2000 (11 Mar 2008)

Thanks for the replies.
Okay I understand about the insurance.

I don't think there was an actual "management company" in place at the time of purchase but I'm sure the first years fee was paid possibly at time of purchase but after that nothing.
I am guessing that the developer/bulder is looking after the upkeep himself. Is this okay?

If we wanted to sell would there be problems because of this?


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## euro2000 (11 Mar 2008)

The builder/developer himself though owns all the other aprtments and has them rented out to mainly social welfare recipients. So I would imagine he has the place insured.
I will try to get hold of the legal docs, thanks

If the management company is not operating then to me, having no block insurance on the apartments sounds a bit scary to me.
So I'd try and check things out if I were you. I'd first start going through the legal documents your father got when he purchased the apartment[/quote]


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## shesells (11 Mar 2008)

I think you mix up the management company and management agent. The company is the legal entity that owns the development. Your dad as an owner is a member of the manaagement company. An agent is someone employed by the management company to look after the development.

Best place to start really is your Dad's deeds/lease agreement.


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## euro2000 (12 Mar 2008)

Thanks Shesells and Angencydude

I will try and get hold of the legal docs but that might pose a problem as my Dad is quite frail and gets aggitated with stress. He is 82

Also I need to get my head around this so if the management company still exists for some reason my Dad hasn't been informed of AGM as is legally required.
It looks to me as the developer has control of the management company as he never released the remaining properties for sale so it either has ceased trading or is still operating and in breach of it's legal obligations.

What I'm most concerned about is that in the event the apartment needs to be sold that this can go ahead if management co is still operating and the arears are paid? If it is not operating what are our options?

*I'm worried that the only person we could sell to is the the developer himself who would probably be more then happy to own the entire block given that he owns the rest. Could this scenario happen?*

I know I need to look at the deeds etc but in the meantime would be very grateful for any advice.


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## AKA (12 Mar 2008)

euro2000 said:


> It looks to me as the developer has control of the management company as he never released the remaining properties for sale so it either has ceased trading or is still operating and in breach of it's legal obligations.
> 
> What I'm most concerned about is that in the event the apartment needs to be sold that this can go ahead if management co is still operating and the arears are paid? If it is not operating what are our options?


 
See:
http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=71622 regarding management hikes.

See http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=77294 regarding management company with problems.  The purchaser's solicitor should check managment company.

I don't see how the developer could rent out the other apts to social welfare recepients without having buildings insurance.  Would the council accept uninsured landlords.  Does a landlord registered to let to the council have to be registered with the PRTB?  

Is there any other resident in the whole building?


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## euro2000 (12 Mar 2008)

thanks AKA, no one else owns their apartment


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## Bubbly Scot (13 Mar 2008)

euro2000 said:


> What I'm most concerned about is that in the event the apartment needs to be sold that this can go ahead if management co is still operating and the arears are paid? If it is not operating what are our options?


 
You can check if the management company is still operating at www.cro.ie and do a company search. It's free and annonomous.


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## euro2000 (4 Apr 2008)

Just to update on this a family member got hold of the deeds of my Dad's apartment and found out the name of the managment co. I've checked the cro and returns have been made for the last eight years but the accounts have a NIL balance. Each year has the same accounts filed, all nil
The deeds specified the fee to be paid each year 545 euro and the developers obligtions. About a year after moving in the developer told my Dad not to bother paying the management fees as he was looking after the complex himself. 
Can anyone shed any light ?


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