# Notre Dame and France



## Folsom (21 Apr 2019)

Like most, I was appalled at watching the scenes of one of France's best known landmarks being gutted by flames. 
Ive had the good fortune to visit it many years ago and I hope again to so once it is restored. 
Of all the capital cities Paris is to many, one of the most endearing from a historical, cultural and architectural perspective. 

However, all is not well in the city of lights and further afield in France. After the ghetto riots in 2005 which stretched emergency services to the limit resulting in a state of emergency, France has been subjected to some horrific terrorists and remains on alert. 
Futhermore the emergence of the 'Yellow Vest' protests which has brought the center of Paris to a standstill on many occasions, resulting in deaths and the destruction of property illustrates the bubbling civil unrest occurring in France at this time. 

So watching the awful pictures of Notre Dame I was somewhat struck by commentary on Sky News that said (as the flames were engulfing the cathedral) that emergency services believe the fire started due to an accident and were ruling out arson. I thought this peculiar as my understanding is that in a fire emergency priority is given to getting the fire under control and quenching it, thereafter, an investigation into how the fire started can commence. Ordinarily, I would just shrug my shoulders and move on, but considering the social upheaval in France in recent times, I remained somewhat sceptical of this reporting. 

So it didn't take long to find this article about Catholic churches being desecrated in France.
https://www.newsweek.com/spate-atta...-sees-altars-desecrated-christ-statue-1370800

This is an alarming state of affairs if accurate, and while in no way can be automatically linked to the burning of Notre Dame, it does go someway, in my opinion, to explaining why the news reporting was eager to downplay the prospect of arson before an investigation could actually take place. 

France is not in good place at this time. In a time of violent protests triggered by increasing taxes on the working and middle-class, it must be galling for those protesters to hear reports of €700-€900m being raised, not from public finances, but from private wealthy donors at the drop of a hat.
In my opinion, it is the lob-sided economic imbalance that concentrates too much wealth into the hands of too few that is ultimately the precursor of all social unrest, conflict and division. 
Notre Dame, which was desecrated during the French revolution, will be a beacon for fundamental change in the social order of France and further afield.


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## Purple (23 Apr 2019)

It's a building and it burned down. The main sspore that collapsed dates from 1802. It has been damaged and rebuilt plenty of times. While it is a cultural and artistic loss a sense of perspective is required. 
France has lots of derelict Catholic Churches. Derelict buildings get broken in to and vandalised. If the Catholic Church doesn't want those empty and disused Churches desecrated then they should deconsecrate them, they they would just be vandalised.

France is a high tax country where income inequality is far lower than most countries and that income inequality hasn't changed to any significant extent in the last 40 years. In big countries some people get very rich. They usually make lots of other people rich in the process. Wealth is created. It is not finite. Therefore when one people gets rich it doesn't mean someone else gets poor. The opposite it usually the case. Communists and Socialists didn't understand that which is why their ideologies failed and socialism for the economically literate changed into social democracy.


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## Folsom (23 Apr 2019)

Purple said:


> It's a building and it burned down.



Lots of buildings have been burnt down. Few get the global media attention that Notre Dame has got. I would suggest it is more than just a building that burned down as your remark implies.



Purple said:


> France has lots of derelict Catholic Churches



Thanks.
But staying on topic, Notre Dame nor the churches identified in the newsweek article are not derelict.


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## Purple (23 Apr 2019)

Folsom said:


> Lots of buildings have been burnt down. Few get the global media attention that Notre Dame has got. I would suggest it is more than just a building that burned down as your remark implies.


 I think you should re-read my post if you think I suggested that it was "Just a building". It is/was of a major historical, architectural and artistic significance but nobody died, it is not 800 years old and it in no way unique. 




Folsom said:


> Thanks.
> But staying on topic, Notre Dame nor the churches identified in the newsweek article are not derelict.


  About 3% of the population of France goes to Mass regularly. Most Churches are empty most of the time. Empty buildings get broken into. We don't know if the Churches identifies in the NewsWeek article are derelict, disused or closed most of the time. They cite individual Churches and then quote numbers but don't state what the status is of the churches included in those numbers. Obviously there is an anti-Church element to some of the attacks and all attacks on religious sites should be condemned but it is inaccurate to suggest that all attacks are part of an anti-Church agenda.


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## Folsom (23 Apr 2019)

Purple said:


> I think you should re-read my post if you think I suggested that it was "Just a building".



I have re-read your post and I apologise, I misconstrued your comment. 



Purple said:


> Most Churches are empty most of the time. Empty buildings get broken into. We don't know if the Churches identifies in the NewsWeek article are derelict, disused or closed most of the time.



Most churches are empty most if the time. No different to here in Ireland. Very few churches, used, disused, derelict or closed, are vandalised, broken into or desecrated, to the extent that it is occurring in France as far as im aware. 

The church of St Sulpice in Paris is used. 
[broken link removed]


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## Purple (23 Apr 2019)

Folsom said:


> Most churches are empty most if the time. No different to here in Ireland. Very few churches, used, disused, derelict or closed, are vandalised, broken into or desecrated, to the extent that it is occurring in France as far as im aware.
> [broken link removed]


It's hard to overstate how underused French Churches are. 
There were about 120 priests ordained there last year. 8 times that many retired. There are about 11500 priests in France, of them 7000 are under the age of 75. Of that 7000 about 1800 are from Africa. 
There are over 50,000 Roman Catholic Churches in France, 45,000 of which are parish Churches. 
That's less than one priest for every 7 Churches.


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## Folsom (23 Apr 2019)

Thats alot of churches indeed.
But focusing on the newsweek article, the churches listed are used regularly, and the intent of the article is to draw attention to occurences of vandalism that are increasing above the norm. A cursory check on other news outlets, such as France24.com can support this. In doing so, I was reminded of the brutal murder of a priest in Normandy in July 2016.
It doesn't of course suggest or confirm that the Notre Dame fire was anything other than an accident, but that news commentary is bugging me. I cannot find the Sky News coverage, but this MSNBC coverage demonstrates the point of oddly suggesting the cause of the fire before it had even been brought in anyway under control (from 1st minute and again between 9 and 10mins) smacks of someone, somewhere wanting to downplay the prospect of arson.

https://youtu.be/xGbmWOfdXcQ


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## cremeegg (24 Apr 2019)

Folsom said:


> smacks of someone, somewhere wanting to downplay the prospect of arson.



You may be right, but downplaying the prospect of arson before the facts are known is preferable to saying "it was probably muslim terrorists" before the facts were known.

And if the main stream media said nothing that narrative may well have taken hold.


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## Folsom (24 Apr 2019)

cremeegg said:


> You may be right, but downplaying the prospect of arson before the facts are known is preferable



I agree it is preferable, in the absence of any evidence, to saying "it was probably muslim terrorists", but I dont think that was suggested anywhere.
What is not preferable, is leading the general public astray with misleading commentary, if it is the case.
All that I am suggesting is that the commentary is most likely misleading considering the fire was still taking hold and emergency services did not appear to have any control of it. I am open to be corrected on that.
Instead, suggesting the cause of the fire at that time has had the reverse effect as far as im concerned. Rather than downplaying arson, it has fuelled my speculation that foul play is a real possibility.
It is the difference between honest reporting and spin-doctoring to a particular agenda.


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## WolfeTone (18 Jul 2020)

Nantes Cathedral 

Another cathedral on fire in France. There doesn't appear to be any hesitancy in calling foul play this time.


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## joe sod (19 Jul 2020)

There will be a huge demand for craftsmen and stone masons to repair these buildings, there is increasing demand anyway as very labour intensive work. This is one area where big tech has zero impact except maybe for 3d laser pictures which were done on Notre Dame so they have a completely accurate record of the cathedral. But the hard work will still need to be done by skilled craftsmen and women


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## Purple (20 Jul 2020)

WolfeTone said:


> Nantes Cathedral
> 
> Another cathedral on fire in France. There doesn't appear to be any hesitancy in calling foul play this time.


I always look at Cathedrals as monuments to inequality; all the highly skilled labour and backbreaking work that went into building them could only ever have been paid for in a grossly unequal society. They are the very antithesis of what Christianity should stand for and a physical manifestation of how human frailty will eventually corrupt any ideal.


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## odyssey06 (20 Jul 2020)

Purple said:


> I always look at Cathedrals as monuments to inequality; all the highly skilled labour and backbreaking work that went into building them could only ever have been paid for in a grossly unequal society. They are the very antithesis of what Christianity should stand for and a physical manifestation of how human frailty will eventually corrupt any ideal.



In the context of the society at the time I would agree with you... looking back from today though I doubt they would want to see their hard work extinguished.


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## Ceist Beag (20 Jul 2020)

Purple said:


> I always look at Cathedrals as monuments to inequality; all the highly skilled labour and backbreaking work that went into building them could only ever have been paid for in a grossly unequal society. They are the very antithesis of what Christianity should stand for and a physical manifestation of how human frailty will eventually corrupt any ideal.


On the one hand I agree (I remember when we visited St Peter's Basilica we were both disgusted at the shameless display of wealth there). However on the other hand, it's not just Cathedrals or Christianity that can be targeted with that argument. A large portion of the truly impressive buildings around the world are religious buildings of some description. For each of these buildings there is a story of the construction of them and the suffering of the people who built them.


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## Purple (20 Jul 2020)

Ceist Beag said:


> On the one hand I agree (I remember when we visited St Peter's Basilica we were both disgusted at the shameless display of wealth there). However on the other hand, it's not just Cathedrals or Christianity that can be targeted with that argument. A large portion of the truly impressive buildings around the world are religious buildings of some description. For each of these buildings there is a story of the construction of them and the suffering of the people who built them.


Absolutely, it's a general point.


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## Peanuts20 (20 Jul 2020)

Ceist Beag said:


> On the one hand I agree (I remember when we visited St Peter's Basilica we were both disgusted at the shameless display of wealth there). However on the other hand, it's not just Cathedrals or Christianity that can be targeted with that argument. A large portion of the truly impressive buildings around the world are religious buildings of some description. For each of these buildings there is a story of the construction of them and the suffering of the people who built them.



True and yet some magnificent art work exists as a result of all of that. The world would be a poorer place without Michaeangelo's David or Sistine chapel or LDV's last supper. Same applies for the Taj Mahal or giant Buddahs. And how many craftsmen, builders and workers were employed in all of their building. ?


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## Purple (20 Jul 2020)

Peanuts20 said:


> True and yet some magnificent art work exists as a result of all of that. The world would be a poorer place without Michaeangelo's David or Sistine chapel or LDV's last supper. Same applies for the Taj Mahal or giant Buddahs. And how many craftsmen, builders and workers were employed in all of their building. ?


Lots of magnificent buildings in Berlin there for a while too that were built on the cheap!


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## cremeegg (20 Jul 2020)

Purple said:


> I always look at Cathedrals as monuments to inequality; all the highly skilled labour and backbreaking work that went into building them could only ever have been paid for in a grossly unequal society. They are the very antithesis of what Christianity should stand for and a physical manifestation of how human frailty will eventually corrupt any ideal.



Not sure how you see this as the antithesis of Christianity, for most of its existence Christianity was a completely hierarchical institution, and for the very most part still is.


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## odyssey06 (20 Jul 2020)

I expect the builders would be gratified to know generations who came after them from the same ilk were able to appreciate their efforts also.


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## WolfeTone (20 Jul 2020)

cremeegg said:


> Not sure how you see this as the antithesis of Christianity, for most of its existence Christianity was a completely hierarchical institution, and for the very most part still is.



Christianity is not an institution. It is a belief system, a way of being, in the word of JC.
I think you may be referencing Roman Catholicism?


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## cremeegg (20 Jul 2020)

The Orthodox, The Catholics, The Anglicans, The Episcopalians and others. In other words the churches that most Christians are members of.

How they choose to organise themselves is their business, but to suggest that is based on equality rather than hierarchy is pie in the sky. To suggest that hierarchy is not inherent in Christianity flies in the face of the way most Christians practice their faith.


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## WolfeTone (20 Jul 2020)

cremeegg said:


> To suggest that hierarchy is not inherent in Christianity flies in the face of the way most Christians practice their faith.



It is inherent in the organised churches. Of course, it is human nature.
Christianity does not advocate a hierarchical system other than to follow the word of Christ, and in doing so all people are equal.

That churches have organised on the basis that "we are all sinners" as a primary means to structure church into hierarchical form is nothing more than a failure of those churches.

The deliverance of true meaning of Christianity is its divinity. It is an aspiration of Christians (like most religions it is probably unattainable, but we keep trying).
JC, although a leader, was not afraid to wash the feet of his disciples as a symbol of equality. He did not request that his followers kiss his ring or fall to their knees before him (although many did/do).

In short, Christian churches are hierarchical, Christianity is not.


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## joe sod (20 Jul 2020)

Purple said:


> I always look at Cathedrals as monuments to inequality; all the highly skilled labour and backbreaking work that went into building them could only ever have been paid for in a grossly unequal society.


But they were at the vanguard of medieval technology and were pushing out the boundaries of what was possible, we wouldn't have sky scrapers today if those guys did not build those cathedrals. Thats how progress happens even if its progress that initially does not benefit the common man. You cannot transpose modern social theories on the medieval world, in fact it is a luxury we can only indulge in because of that very progress.


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## Purple (21 Jul 2020)

odyssey06 said:


> I expect the builders would be gratified to know generations who came after them from the same ilk were able to appreciate their efforts also.


I think they'd rather have had the money.


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## Purple (21 Jul 2020)

WolfeTone said:


> It is inherent in the organised churches. Of course, it is human nature.
> Christianity does not advocate a hierarchical system other than to follow the word of Christ, and in doing so all people are equal.
> 
> That churches have organised on the basis that "we are all sinners" as a primary means to structure church into hierarchical form is nothing more than a failure of those churches.
> ...


This post will be deleted if not edited immediately often talked about being good to your slaves. He didn't say that you should free your slaves. In modern Bibles slave is translates as servant but he was talking about slaves.


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## Purple (21 Jul 2020)

joe sod said:


> But they were at the vanguard of medieval technology and were pushing out the boundaries of what was possible, we wouldn't have sky scrapers today if those guys did not build those cathedrals. Thats how progress happens even if its progress that initially does not benefit the common man. You cannot transpose modern social theories on the medieval world, in fact it is a luxury we can only indulge in because of that very progress.


Sure, but maybe they could have built fewer big churches and paid the people who built them a bit more.
Some valuable medical and scientific breakthroughs have happened due to appalling experiments on people. The ends don't justify the means. 

The progress which out society and industry is built on happened when people became more free, something the Catholic Church fought against.


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## Purple (21 Jul 2020)

cremeegg said:


> Not sure how you see this as the antithesis of Christianity, for most of its existence Christianity was a completely hierarchical institution, and for the very most part still is.


I think you need to read my post again. I said it was the antithesis of what Christianity should be.


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## cremeegg (21 Jul 2020)

Purple said:


> I think you need to read my post again. I said it was the antithesis of what Christianity should be.



I got that, but I don't get that you are the arbiter of what Christianity *should be*.

Christianity is what christians have made it, hierarchical. Its a bit arrogant to say they *should* have made it some other way.


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## Purple (21 Jul 2020)

cremeegg said:


> I got that, but I don't get that you are the arbiter of what Christianity *should be*.
> 
> Christianity is what christians have made it, hierarchical. Its a bit arrogant to say they *should* have made it some other way.


I'm just going by my interpretation of what the authors of the New Testament wrote (whomever they were). 
Personally I found it very derivative and contradictory but I'm not a big fan of fiction or self help books.


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## joe sod (21 Jul 2020)

Purple said:


> Sure, but maybe they could have built fewer big churches and paid the people who built them a bit more.


The skilled craftsmen were paid alot and were highly sought after , its similar to sought after skills today. Yes there was alot of heavy low paid manual work but everything was drudgery then, better that than toiling on the land or conscripted into the Kings army to fight a futile war and sufffer horrendous injuries or death. Labouring on a cathedral job might be the best there is


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## Purple (22 Jul 2020)

joe sod said:


> The skilled craftsmen were paid alot and were highly sought after , its similar to sought after skills today. Yes there was alot of heavy low paid manual work but everything was drudgery then, better that than toiling on the land or conscripted into the Kings army to fight a futile war and sufffer horrendous injuries or death. Labouring on a cathedral job might be the best there is


And you don't see the contradiction between the Christian message and using cheap labour to build a monument to the vanity of the builder?
The argument that something is okay because some other alternative is worse had been used to exploit people forever.


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## joe sod (22 Jul 2020)

Purple said:


> The argument that something is okay because some other alternative is worse had been used to exploit people forever.


But you are comparing labouring in medieval times to modern standards and because the work was hard therefore it was exploitative, that is false. Life was This post will be deleted if not edited to remove bad language then for everybody just to put bad food on the table was hard work. Therefore everyone was exploited by nature and the battle to eke out a living. The reason why they built those cathedrals was partly to lift themself out of drudgery to have something that was other worldly , that is also the reason why people were religious . You have to picture yourself working in a field in horrible weather subject to terrible diseases to understand it. You cannot judge building cathedrals in isolation and compare that to modern standards


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## Purple (22 Jul 2020)

joe sod said:


> But you are comparing labouring in medieval times to modern standards and because the work was hard therefore it was exploitative, that is false. Life was This post will be deleted if not edited to remove bad language then for everybody just to put bad food on the table was hard work. Therefore everyone was exploited by nature and the battle to eke out a living. The reason why they built those cathedrals was partly to lift themself out of drudgery to have something that was other worldly , that is also the reason why people were religious . You have to picture yourself working in a field in horrible weather subject to terrible diseases to understand it. You cannot judge building cathedrals in isolation and compare that to modern standards


You are missing the point; Christianity preached a sort of communist utopia where every man as your brother and everyone shared and all that good stuff. My point is that they are a permanent reminder of how far away from that ideal Christianity was at the time, as it has been for most of its history.
Ironically is it secularisation that led to greater equality.


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## Seagull (22 Jul 2020)

You need to differentiate between christianity and organised religion. The major religious institutions have tended to be political rather than religious organisations. There was a quote some years back about how more and more people were leaving the church and turning to christianity.


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## PMU (22 Jul 2020)

Purple said:


> You are missing the point; Christianity preached a sort of communist utopia where every man as your brother and everyone shared and all that good stuff.


  Really?  Not in the Bible.  Check out Matthew 25:14-30.  Invest wisely or you will be cast into the outer darkness.   As for the cathedrals, God manifests himself through his greatness, and, as a religious edifice, there is nothing greater than a cathedral.


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## Purple (22 Jul 2020)

PMU said:


> Really?  Not in the Bible.  Check out Matthew 25:14-30.  Invest wisely or you will be cast into the outer darkness.   As for the cathedrals, God manifests himself through his greatness, and, as a religious edifice, there is nothing greater than a cathedral.


There's all sorts of nonsense in the Bible about all sorts of stuff. The basic message is share and be nice etc. The letters that people wrote afterwards, Peter, Matthew, etc. are not the main deal. The Parable of the gold  bags is about using the talents you are given, it's not about making money. 

I think most people realise that all that religion stuff is fairytales and nonsense, some more people realise that the stories are allegorical and a sad few think it was all to be taken literally.


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## odyssey06 (22 Jul 2020)

I take the Bible seriously - as a work of historical importance, and in its translated forms, as literature in its own right.
But I don't take it seriously as a guide to the workings of the cosmos, perhaps more as a guide to human nature.


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## Leo (22 Jul 2020)

Purple said:


> There's all sorts of nonsense in the Bible about all sorts of stuff.



There's also the whole 'it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God' thing as well, the church put forward the myth that the eye of a needle was a metaphor for a narrow passage or gateway so they could still sell indulgences and take money off wealthy benefactors.


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## Purple (22 Jul 2020)

Leo said:


> There's also the whole 'it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God' thing as well, the church put forward the myth that the eye of a needle was a metaphor for a narrow passage or gateway so they could still sell indulgences and take money off wealthy benefactors.


Yep, which brings me back to my original point that religions are human institutions, subject to human frailties and Cathedrals are monuments to that frailty in the form of an inequality built on vanity.


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## Ceist Beag (23 Jul 2020)

All that hand wringing aside, they're also incredible feats of construction and very impressive to look at and it's very sad when some people decide they want to damage them.


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## Purple (23 Jul 2020)

Ceist Beag said:


> All that hand wringing aside, they're also incredible feats of construction and very impressive to look at and it's very sad when some people decide they want to damage them.


Yep, beautiful buildings and should be protected. 
As for hand wringing well, what's your view on the hand wringing about black people being killed in america at the moment? As for that hand wringing about child abuse we had here a few years back; bunch of snowflakes!


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## Ceist Beag (23 Jul 2020)

Ah Purple, seriously, I'm not going to respond to that.


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## Purple (23 Jul 2020)

Ceist Beag said:


> Ah Purple, seriously, I'm not going to respond to that.


Okay. I just don't see how you can describe it as hand wringing. It was of it's time but by today's standards it was gross exploitation and even then it was stunningly hypocritical from an organisation which was supposed to be helping the poor rather than exploiting them for the glorification of princes and kings.


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## Ceist Beag (23 Jul 2020)

It's already been said here a number of times. It was of it's time. If you think this way of any impressive building from 500+ (1000+ in many cases) years ago then behind that impressive building is a story of exploitation and hardship. I don't personally think there is much to be got in us getting upset about that now. 
Comparing that with the black lives matter movement or child abuse, really Purple I expect better from you.


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## Purple (23 Jul 2020)

Ceist Beag said:


> It's already been said here a number of times. It was of it's time. If you think this way of any impressive building from 500+ (1000+ in many cases) years ago then behind that impressive building is a story of exploitation and hardship. I don't personally think there is much to be got in us getting upset about that now.
> Comparing that with the black lives matter movement or child abuse, really Purple I expect better from you.


I took issue with you characterising a point about the hypocrisy inherent is an organisation founded on the ideal of treating everyone fairly building cathedrals as hand wringing. I expected better from you.
What used to happen to black people was thought by most to be alright at the time but we know it was inherently wrong. The "ah, sure that's just the way it was" argument explains why things happen but it doesn't justify them and it doesn't make them right. Seeing the exploitation which was inherent in those Cathedrals simply shows how much better and more developed our morality is in our modern secular world. Secularism has forced Christianity to be more Christian. I'm not getting upset about that, simply making a philosophical point.


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## Ceist Beag (23 Jul 2020)

Purple said:


> I took issue with you characterising a point about the hypocrisy inherent is an organisation founded on the ideal of treating everyone fairly building cathedrals as hand wringing. I expected better from you.


Touché! In other times I would suggest we have a pint together and move on eh!


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## Purple (23 Jul 2020)

Pints... I miss pints.


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## Ceist Beag (23 Jul 2020)

Purple said:


> Pints... I miss pints.


Not only pints, the reminder that it is 25 years since REM in Slane makes me yearn for pints outdoors in an open field with a cracking band playing tunes at one end of the field .... sigh!


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