# I bought office furniture frm previous tenant that were still on hire purchase.



## Alwyn (31 May 2010)

Hi, apologies in advance if this post should be in the business threads but I need legal advise on the following please, as my solicitor seems to have washed her hands with the situation:

I took out a lease for office space from a reputable agents a couple of months back and was contacted by the previous tenant who asked me was I interested in buying the contents of the office for a fixed price as they would no longer be using them i.e. chairs, tables desks etc.  It seemed a really good deal at the time and I jumped at the chance.  

To get to the point, I had a call at the office from a bank representative looking for the previous tenant whilst explaining that the items within my office space that I thought I had paid cash for, were on hire purchase and were still legally owned by the bank.  The previous tenant cannot be contacted.  

In defense of the the bank they have given me time to digest the situation and have offered me the chance to continue on payments from were the previous tenant left off.  Having been given a copy of the account there is still a lot of money owed and personally the items within the office are not worth the amount the bank is looking for.

Do I have a leg to stand on?  Can the bank come in and remove the items?  Or am I just a fool that was conned?  

Thank you for any replies.


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## Sunny (31 May 2010)

Think you know the answer I'm afraid!


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## Alwyn (31 May 2010)

Yep, it's very embarrasing and going to have me out of pocket.


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## dereko1969 (31 May 2010)

You should report the previous leaseholders to the Garda for selling items that weren't theirs to sell.


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## z107 (31 May 2010)

Negotiate a price with the bank - don't just continue where the other left off. After all, you are in effect now buying second hand stuff from the bank. Stuff that the bank doesn't want.


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## TheShark (1 Jun 2010)

umop3p!sdn said:


> Negotiate a price with the bank - don't just continue where the other left off. After all, you are in effect now buying second hand stuff from the bank. Stuff that the bank doesn't want.


+1 ... Secondhand office furniture can be picked up pretty cheaply , make them an offer at about 33% of the original cost and see where it goes.


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## truthseeker (1 Jun 2010)

dereko1969 said:


> You should report the previous leaseholders to the Garda for selling items that weren't theirs to sell.


 
I doubt the Guards would get involved. I bought a car from a dealership that had finance outstanding on it and when I reported it to the Guards I was told it was a civil matter.


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## Alwyn (1 Jun 2010)

Thank you all for the feedback.

Can the bank get a court order to remove the goods or have they the automatic right of way to enter the office?


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## Padraigb (1 Jun 2010)

Alwyn said:


> ... Can the bank get a court order to remove the goods or have they the automatic right of way to enter the office?



You know the bank owns the furniture, so I think you should not be considering this question.

I am assuming that the people who sold you the furniture are not to be found, so the best outcome for you at this stage might be to get a good deal from the bank. I'd go with TheShark's advice.


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## Pat Bateman (1 Jun 2010)

Padraigb said:


> You know the bank owns the furniture, so I think you should not be considering this question.
> 
> I am assuming that the people who sold you the furniture are not to be found, so the best outcome for you at this stage might be to get a good deal from the bank. I'd go with TheShark's advice.


 
+1

The bank most certainly do not want the goods back, so they should be open to doing a deal.  Best of luck.


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## Alwyn (2 Jun 2010)

The plot thickens; I spoke to another representative in the bank yesterday who told me that the previous owners had went into liquidation and the liquidator didn't bother taking the items into account because there was a personal guarantee given by previous owner.

Bank don't seem to be very flexible and the situation is becoming more trouble than it's worth so I'm going to cut my losses and ask them to remove items.

Thanks everyone for your thoughts.


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## papervalue (2 Jun 2010)

Alwyn said:


> The plot thickens; I spoke to another representative in the bank yesterday who told me that the previous owners had went into liquidation and the liquidator didn't bother taking the items into account because there was a personal guarantee given by previous owner.
> 
> Bank don't seem to be very flexible and the situation is becoming more trouble than it's worth so I'm going to cut my losses and ask them to remove items.
> 
> Thanks everyone for your thoughts.


 
Did you pay cash,cheque, draft etc. Be ho harm to contact liquidator and explain situation and get him to note on his liquidation report about the frauda and is their anything he can do for you.

Keep thread updated if bank have items collected. They should take whatever you offer and enforce balance of guarantee against the person who sold them to you.

If looking to find person who sold them to you, do company search on cro and sometimes gives you details of other companies they own, registered office/home address etc.


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## Alwyn (2 Jun 2010)

Hi Papervalue, unfortunately I paid cash as seller would have it no other way.  I suppose alarm bells should have rang at this point

I contacted the liquidator yesterday as soon as I heard and found him very unhelpful and not forthcoming with information.  He said the items were not taken into account during the asset inspection, which is odd in itself and that he had trust in his client and had left it to them to sell the 'items' in question and pay off the bank.  I have never heard the likes of this before.

The bank are in constant contact with me and are pressing me to make arrangements to continue on payments from were the previous tenant left off.  To add fuel to the fire they want the 'items' left in the previous tenants name as they had given the bank a personal guarantee.  

I've also learned that the bank know the whereabouts of their client but feel I am the one who should be paying as their client has gone bust plus I am in use of the goods.

I will keep this thread updated as to were this mess all ends up.


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## Pat Bateman (2 Jun 2010)

Don't allow yourself to feel pressurised or bullied by the bank. By the sound of it, you would be doing them a favour by paying them ANYTHING for these goods. If they insist on playing hardball with you, perhaps you should play hardball with them? Come up with a figure you would be willing to pay for the goods and put it to the bank. If they refuse your offer, order them to remove their goods from your premises. Make it clear that if they don't do so, you'll be forced to charge them for storage of the goods. 

As per you earlier post, these goods are not worth a smell of what the bank claim. Accordingly, they need to play ball with you. Best of luck, and do not allow yourself be intimidated.


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## Alwyn (2 Jun 2010)

Thanks Pat.  

I cannot believe they are chasing me instead of the person who gave them the guarantee.  Surely the guarantee is worth more than the cost of desks etc.


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## Wishes (2 Jun 2010)

Why are you eager to hand the fittings back to the bank?  I'm presuming you have signed nothing.  If so, then the bank have nothing on you but instead should be chasing the person who gave them the personal guarantee.  If what you say is correct regarding the bank knowing the whereabouts of the 'real owner' of these goods then I find this whole scenario absurd to say the least.


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## mathepac (2 Jun 2010)

A few things don't quite ring true about this situation :



Alwyn said:


> ...  I had a call at the office from a bank representative looking for the previous tenant whilst explaining that the items within my office space that I thought I had paid cash for, were on hire purchase and were still legally owned by the bank...


Did you ask the bank representative to provide proof of ownership - serial numbers, identification marks, sight of the original invoices from the suppliers, signed agreements with a schedule of goods, etc.

Did you (or the letting agent) volunteer the information that you had purchased the stuff from the previous tenant for cash or did the bank just assume the stuff was in situ when you got there?


Alwyn said:


> ...  Having been given a copy of the  account ...


Hopefully there is no identifying or personal information about the account holder on the copy of the account you received, otherwise the bank could be in breach of data protection legislation.


Alwyn said:


> ...  there is still a lot of money owed and personally the items  within the office are not worth the amount the bank is looking  for...


Which means either the previous tenant has removed some of the stuff the bank is laying claim to or you have paid him cash for inferior office equipment and he still has the stuff the bank wants.

Did you get an invoice / bill of sale describing what you bought, what you paid and who you paid the money to?


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## z107 (2 Jun 2010)

> Why are you eager to hand the fittings back to the bank? I'm presuming you have signed nothing.


This is an interesting observation.

Why not just do nothing? Keep using the fittings, but don't entertain the bank any more. This could drag on months or years.

I wouldn't be an any rush to hand money over or sign anything.


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## Pat Bateman (2 Jun 2010)

mathepac said:


> Which means either the previous tenant has removed some of the stuff the bank is laying claim to or you have paid him cash for inferior office equipment and he still has the stuff the bank wants.


 
Surely it just means the amount due to the bank is greater than the open market value of the goods?  That would be normal enough.


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## Alwyn (2 Jun 2010)

umop3p!sdn said:


> This is an interesting observation.
> 
> Why not just do nothing? Keep using the fittings, but don't entertain the bank any more. This could drag on months or years.
> 
> I wouldn't be in any rush to hand money over or sign anything.



Hi, my eagerness is due to the fact that the bank is constantly ringing me and making me feel like I'm the one who has done something wrong.  They are telling me that I am taking in money whereas the previous person has no income.  The situation really is as crazy as it probably sounds to people reading this thread.  I'm also embarrassed that the bank could turn up and remove the items at any given time.  

Hi Mathepac, the representative provided a brief list of items.  I did not receive a copy of this or a list of items they claim is there's.  They did say the serial number on the items was the match of the serial number they had on file.  I received no list of what these items were.  

I volunteered the information that I had purchased the stuff from the  previous tenant.   

As regards the statement I did receive; well this did hold information about the previous tenant. 

I cannot contact the person by telephone but he is in contact with the bank and has denied that money exchanged hands between he and I.  He has told the bank that he is in liquidation and they are more than welcome to collect the items.


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## nai (2 Jun 2010)

Alwyn said:


> I cannot contact the person by telephone but he is in contact with the bank and has denied that money exchanged hands between he and I.  He has told the bank that he is in liquidation and they are more than welcome to collect the items.



This (finally) appears to be the most important point - the bank (supported by a statement from the original owner) believe that he still owns the goods, not the OP. Do you not even have a hand written receipt from the original owner ?

If not, how can you back up the fact that you believe that you own the goods ?


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## feltox (2 Jun 2010)

I cannot contact the person by telephone but he is in contact with the bank and has denied that money exchanged hands between he and I. He has told the bank that he is in liquidation and they are more than welcome to collect the items.[/QUOTE]

How much did you pay for items?

Is their a withdrawal that day from your bank?

The lie ing part would annoy me- Get on to liquidator that he is missing money from his satement of afffairs if not counting these items?

Be no harm to send the seller a legal letter looking for a refund of the money

Can the bank that is annoying you be named on this forum- No way to carry on( No one would take over repayments like that as the amount owed is bound to be a lot more than open market value of furniture)

Can you give bank deadline- do deal at decent price(low) or get items moved within week or better still put items in truck and drop in bank's carpark


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## csirl (2 Jun 2010)

I'd be inclined to tell the bank that you have zero connection with the previous occupant of the premises - that you believe that they went into liquidation and they should get in contact with the liquidator.

When the bank raises the issue of furniture, just repeat the above and tell them to get in contact with the liquidator etc. - you have no knowledge or connection with their customers business and do not want to get involved. 

If they claim that your furniture is owned by them, then tell them that you paid for the furniture. If they believe that the person who sold you the furniture did not own it then they should report the matter to the Gardai and you will be more than happy to cooperate with any Gardai inquiry.

I would also emphasise that you do not appreciate been hastled regarding a matter which does not involve you and has no connection with your business.


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## Peter54 (2 Jun 2010)

I don't want to hijack this thread but what I will say, is this is not an alien case, in fact it's the second case I've heard this week; the other being in a retail setting.

Goods are being abandoned by previous tenants who are facing business difficulties and the landlords are renting the units without clearing places out.  The new tenants are then getting the knock on the door hence whats gone done in the above case.


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## Seagull (2 Jun 2010)

Make the bank what you consider to be a reasonable offer, and tell them to either accept it, or make an appointment to collect the items in question within 10 days, after which you will charge them storage. That should at least sort them out one way ot the other. 

Tell them politely that you have absolutely no interest in taking over the payments for them. Unfortunately, the fact that you paid for them is irrelevant, as the previous tenant didn't have the right to sell the furniture.


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## Pat Bateman (2 Jun 2010)

Pat Bateman said:


> Don't allow yourself to feel pressurised or bullied by the bank. By the sound of it, you would be doing them a favour by paying them ANYTHING for these goods. If they insist on playing hardball with you, perhaps you should play hardball with them? Come up with a figure you would be willing to pay for the goods and put it to the bank. If they refuse your offer, order them to remove their goods from your premises. Make it clear that if they don't do so, you'll be forced to charge them for storage of the goods.
> 
> As per you earlier post, these goods are not worth a smell of what the bank claim. Accordingly, they need to play ball with you. Best of luck, and do not allow yourself be intimidated.


 


Seagull said:


> Make the bank what you consider to be a reasonable offer, and tell them to either accept it, or make an appointment to collect the items in question within 10 days, after which you will charge them storage. That should at least sort them out one way ot the other.
> 
> Tell them politely that you have absolutely no interest in taking over the payments for them. Unfortunately, the fact that you paid for them is irrelevant, as the previous tenant didn't have the right to sell the furniture.


 


Alwyn said:


> Hi, my eagerness is due to the fact that the bank is constantly ringing me and making me feel like I'm the one who has done something wrong. They are telling me that I am taking in money whereas the previous person has no income.


 
Follow our advice. And if the bank are constantly calling you and upsetting you, feel free to tell them not to call you anymore. It will more than likely cost the bank more to collect the stuff and dipose of it than it would to do a deal with you. Remember that. 

The "strong arm tactics" that these clowns try and use never cease to amaze me. Their argument quoted above by you is utterly ridiculous. You've been shafted by a dodgy businessperson and it seems that a (discount?) liquidator hasn't covered himself in glory either. You're just trying to regularise the situation. However, the bank see you as the only one they can squeeze some money from. That is, if they can trick you into discharging someone else's liability. Tread carefully and best of luck.


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## Alwyn (2 Jun 2010)

Peter54 said:


> I don't want to hijack this thread but what I will say, is this is not an alien case, in fact it's the second case I've heard this week; the other being in a retail setting.
> 
> Goods are being abandoned by previous tenants who are facing business difficulties and the landlords are renting the units without clearing places out.  The new tenants are then getting the knock on the door hence whats gone done in the above case.



Hi, I would like to hear more about this if possible please.

Pat, you've hit the nail on the head when you mentioned the (discount?) liquidator.  

This afternoon I received notification from the previous tenant stating that the bank were closing in on me and they would be removing their goods, if I didn't commence payments (unbelievable).  He hasn't been heard from in weeks so I presume was covering himself in case the situation went down a legal route.  

It is obvious that both previous tenant and bank are trading tit for tat information, all whilst avoiding the main moral of the story; that I am not the person with the loan but the person they are dealing with is in fact the person who shafted them in the first place.

Of course all of this is not seen as the goods are in my premises.  

A previous poster mentioned leaving the items outside the banks door; if they are not collected within the next couple of days then that is what I will be doing.


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## bluemac (2 Jun 2010)

charge the bank a daily fee for storage of there items. tell them you wont release the items until all payments owing to you have been cleared.


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## Seagull (3 Jun 2010)

Don't go out of your way to accommodate the bank. Make them do the work. Definitely don't deliver the furniture to them unless you tell them ahead of time that you will be billing them for this service, and get agreement to this in writing from them.


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## Wishes (3 Jun 2010)

There are a lot of unanswered questions here.

Your lack of paperwork from the bank is worrying and their lack of chasing the previous tenant is even more concerning.

What about the previous tenants personal guarantee??

Are you 100% certain that the fittings have a serial number etc?  

Seriously, I would be in no rush to do the banks dirty work for them.  They have really messed up and are holding you liable for goods that may not even be theirs.

Think about it, you were not shown invoices, order forms or whatever else supposedly links them to the goods.  You were merely shown a statement. 

Obviously you are concerned they will turn up at your premises at an inappropriate time but I'm sure they cannot just walk in without an order.  There has to be some sort of written communication but I'm guessing that in your case it's all verbal.  

I'm no Lawyer but I gather that they cannot gain entry into your premises at the drop of a hat.  Can anyone else vouch for this?

As a previous poster mentioned; it could take months or years to get sorted.


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## csirl (3 Jun 2010)

The bank are alleging that furniture belonging to them has been "sold" to you by someone who didnt own it i.e. that they are victims of theft/fraud. If this is the case, they should report it to the Gardai. The only people you should deal with on this matter is the Gardai.


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