# As a PIP, do you charge for initial consultation



## censuspro (29 Nov 2013)

Curious to know if PIP's or potential PIP's are charging for an initial consultation? My own personal experience is that it has the potential to turn your office into a citizens advice bureau. Numerous phone calls and long winded stories can take up a significant amount of time and you may not even get the client!

I think an initial fee for an upfront consultation would weed out the tyre kickers.


----------



## Gerry Canning (29 Nov 2013)

censuspro; 

I send people to local PIP and tell them its 200 on the table for a consultation.

Otherwise , with the best will in the world, waffle ensues. Nothing like a few bob to clear the mind ! .


----------



## Steve Thatcher (30 Nov 2013)

I used to give hours and hours of free advice. My wife told me I was an idiot. 

I charge a fee for what I do and then off-set it. The rational being proper advice needs to be paid for and then if people are serious about their solution it can be off-set.

I think PIPs will need to charge, or they will spend all their day ministering to rooms of people who may never take a service. That is no way to run a business model. 

Lets face it like it or not, it costs a lot of money to be  PIP, those costs need covering.

I suspect the problem will be that many can't afford it and I hope there would be a charity/government solution as well.

Steve Thatcher
www.stevethatcher.ie


----------



## brenbrady (1 Dec 2013)

Steve Thatcher said:


> I used to give hours and hours of free advice. My wife told me I was an idiot.
> 
> I charge a fee for what I do and then off-set it. The rational being proper advice needs to be paid for and then if people are serious about their solution it can be off-set.
> 
> ...



Correct me if I'm wrong but are new beginning not helping people who are not position to pay a PIP?


----------



## dubliner (1 Dec 2013)

Bren, I contacted new beginning last week, they wanted €150 for an initial meeting. I declined, that could go towards a bankruptcy fee. I know I will have to pay for a PIP to act on my behalf, but I thought like you, new beginning were helping people who were struggling by at least doing the consultation free.


----------



## Gerry Canning (2 Dec 2013)

Dubliner; 
Everybody (including New Beginnings& Steve) Thatcher have to live.
From experience a Consultation can be very time consuming .

I would consider a e150 for a consultation well worth it.
New Beginnings& Steve , just cannot survive without @least some income.
It is surprisingly costly  to run even a small office type operation.

I would suggest that people who are (struggling) need to decide on this.
And PLEASE , I do not wish to appear hard , but again from experience , it is amazing how (finding) a fee focuses the mind and  the (struggler) having to decide to find a fee is a HUGE help in getting the (struggler) to a realise that this is way of getting resolution. They  then become engaged and a solid part of a resolution.

A fee moves the case from a talking to a sorting shop.


----------



## Bronte (2 Dec 2013)

dubliner said:


> . I declined, that could go towards a bankruptcy fee. I know I will have to pay for a PIP to act on my behalf, .


 
Are you going the bankruptcy route? You don't need a PIP for that? And I don't see how New Beginning can do consulations for free when they have to pay staff.   The only people who are free is Mabs, but don't know if they will help people with bankruptcy, it would be a very good idea if they did.   They cannot act as a PIP though.


----------



## wbbs (2 Dec 2013)

MABS can only help people who want to go the Debt Relief Notice way, under 20k in debt and no property.


----------



## brenbrady (2 Dec 2013)

dubliner said:


> Bren, I contacted new beginning last week, they wanted €150 for an initial meeting. I declined, that could go towards a bankruptcy fee. I know I will have to pay for a PIP to act on my behalf, but I thought like you, new beginning were helping people who were struggling by at least doing the consultation free.



Just to clarify, I wasn't suggesting that new beginning should not charge an initial consultation, that was just my understanding based on what I read recently.


----------



## Bronte (2 Dec 2013)

Then you need to have a look at their terms and conditions, especially point v and vi, and I'm sure there is more detail on costs once you submit/register for advice

[broken link removed]


----------



## Matthew Moore (2 Dec 2013)

I paid new beginnings fee of €150 for a consultation and found it was worth every cent. There was 2 advisers who had read up on the details I had emailed. We spent at least an hour going through my case and answering my questions. I doubt the €150 would cover costs.  They are dealing with many similar cases so their opinion is valuable. As PIP's become more experienced their opinions will also be valuable so they should have a reasonable fee I believe.


----------



## dubliner (2 Dec 2013)

Gerry, I am not saying they should, I know they would end up with a lot of time spent offering advice and not getting paying work done. The reason I said I thought they were offering free consultations, I had read somewhere that new beginnings and flac were going to be giving free help with the bankruptcies. I can't say exactly what was written because I can't find it. It was in one of the papers last week, I am trying to find it.


----------



## dubliner (2 Dec 2013)

Bronte, the reason I didn't go for the new beginnings consult is because I don't have the €150, if I did have it, I am still unsure of what to do, as in do I attempt do do bankruptcy myself, or will I need help. If I can do it myself, well that €150 spent on consult could have gone towards the bankruptcy fee. 

I think I have to have the affidavit saying I have been to a PIP, and the other deals won't work for me. If not, I can save that €150 towards the bankruptcy fee. I honestly don't know what to do at the moment. I am just wary of making a mess of the application. I do understand though that a PIP has to make a living and I have seen nothing on new beginnings website stating they would help without payment. I went by what I read in the paper at the end of an article regarding bankruptcy. I will post it up when I find it.


----------



## dubliner (2 Dec 2013)

This is from 28th November, Irish Independent, article has pic of Sean Quinn at the top

_"It costs between €2,000 and €6,000 to have a solicitor process a   bankruptcy application in the courts, but a number of bodies are   preparing to do this work for free. These include the Irish Mortgage   Holders' Organisation, New Beginning, Flac (Free Legal Advice Centres)   and the Phoenix Project."_

I couldn't post a link yet, have to have made 15 posts first


----------



## Matthew Moore (2 Dec 2013)

dubliner said:


> Bronte, the reason I didn't go for the new beginnings consult is because I don't have the €150, if I did have it, I am still unsure of what to do, as in do I attempt do do bankruptcy myself, or will I need help. If I can do it myself, well that €150 spent on consult could have gone towards the bankruptcy fee.



Have you been in contact with FLAC yet?

I called their offices recently as I had some questions and they referred me to a drop in centre they run weekly in my area. The consultation is with a solicitor and free of charge. He was very helpful and had some good ideas regarding my situation.


----------



## dubliner (2 Dec 2013)

Pat, No I haven't contacted FLAC, I didn't know they could help. I rang last year and they said I should just continue with MABS. I will try again as I am no longer with MABS. I got a letter today from solicitor that they have commenced legal proceedings. I rang them and they said, yes, the creditor received your financial statement etc, he knows you cannot pay, but wants us to go ahead with legal proceedings. There was nothing I could say to that. 

It is pointless though on the creditors part because there is nothing to take from me. The letter says I will have to appear in court, they will instruct the sheriff to enforce judgement against my goods and chattels (no idea what chattels are). Publish in stubbs gazette. Register a judgement mortgage against all my property.. I don't own any property, I live in a council property that I rent. I will ring FLAC and show them the letter.


----------



## Gerry Canning (3 Dec 2013)

Dubliner; 
I hear you.
If summoned ,go to court bring copy of financial statement, etc. What I see is a lot of {we are going to court} letters. If your creditor accepts you have minimal assets he will not go to court. He may want to get a Judgment registered against you . In effect a judgment  notes you owe him and should you come into mony he wants his share.  
{ Goods and Chattels } are legal terms to cover anything you own eg a car, a washing machine etc.

, I do not know how much you owe etc but 
Suggest phone Ryan Stewart pip practitioners 0858888531(mention my name) he will give you up to date good advice. You can then decide to use him or not. 
Methinks the (free) as in Flac are going to be inundated.
At least if you hand it to a professional you will get closure.


----------



## ellenb (13 Jan 2014)

Can I ask has anyone discovered anywhere that can handle a bankruptsy or PIP or DSA free of charge? Like everyone else, I completely understand why people have to charge. I also remember there being alot of discussion when this was initially being brought in about families like mine, where they would be in no position to cover fees. 
Has a charity or organisation begun to offer free services to those who simply cant afford them? I desperately need help and I cant afford it. If I were charged with a crime I would get free legal aid. Can I apply for that in this case? 
Could I agree to pay fees once we are back on our feet? We are genuinely on our knees. 
We dont have a warchest as some of the people looking at bankruptcy are talking about-makes me really angry-I need to go bankrupt as I have no money but can I bring €20k with me to UK for rent etc? Honestly?


----------



## Bronte (14 Jan 2014)

ellenb said:


> Can I ask has anyone discovered anywhere that can handle a bankruptsy or PIP or DSA free of charge?


 
No is the simple answer to that.  It was discussed on the radio all weekend, that the take up of the insolvency options is low because most people cannot afford the court/legal fee nevermind the professionals fee.  

But you can do a bankruptcy yourself apparently, and the cost of this is a more manageable sum of less than 1K.


----------



## wbbs (14 Jan 2014)

There should have been a system similar to free legal aid and operated by MABS brought in for those who are caught in the middle and do not have any surplus over living costs that can be offered to creditors and which the PIPs charge can be deducted from.   

For some reason this was not done, MABS was the obvious agency to deal with those unable to fund it themselves.


----------



## Bronte (14 Jan 2014)

wbbs said:


> For some reason this was not done, MABS was the obvious agency to deal with those unable to fund it themselves.


 
Completely agree with you on this, and why was it not done? To protect the incomes of those who have access to government. You only have to look at all the legal and financial fees that are being paid out by the Irish taxpayer for all the Nama/insolvency/bankruptcy work. 

But the PIP options seems to be backfiring spectacularly, people do not actually have the money to hire them. And I'm just waiting to see how much of a quango/fiasco the ISI turns out to be, and look at that lovely new mess Irish Water. There is no end of good money to throw at all of these, but none to actually help distressed borrowers. Instead we have 'disparate' groups such as the phoenix project, New beginnings, Radolupous Allen Trust......

Speaking of Mabs, we have poster Guineapig going for a DRN via Mabs, and that too is a shambles.  She has been given incorrect information by Mabs/ISI and messed around by a bank etc, and sent hither and thither for documents more than once.


----------



## wbbs (14 Jan 2014)

Yes, I think we can all make a guess at the reasons why it was not done, getting very cynical aren't we 

I know someone doing that job in MABS and while they seem to be well able for it the backup being received does not seem to be fit for purpose, initial training info being changed and continual altering of internal processes is not contributing to a smooth system for the clients.


----------



## Matthew Moore (14 Jan 2014)

ellenb said:


> Can I ask has anyone discovered anywhere that can handle a bankruptsy or PIP or DSA free of charge?



Have you tried IMHO, New Beginnings etc?
Have you rang numerous PIP's and get their opinion?

I recently spoke to a few PIP's over the phone regarding my own situation and looking to get some other opinions on whether bankruptcy was the best option for me. They all confirmed it was and we discussed the whole insolvency system in general. A couple of these PIP's said they would be willing to take on cases Free of Charge and help the debtors so they could get experience of the system. The numbers going through are tiny and they were of the opinion that alot of people are negotiating with the bank directly rather than going through the formal process and having to live on what the debtors see as small allowances.

Some of these PIP's are chomping at the bit to get some experience, of course you would probably have to cover the court fees yourself but they may be able to do everything else FOC.
Give a few of them a ring, you've nothing to lose.


----------



## Bronte (1 Apr 2014)

FREE PIP'S at IMHO - David Hall

http://www.independent.ie/business/...after-it-secures-vital-pip-deal-30143180.html

I cannot find the right thread for this, it was one where Burgess mentioned that in April the Insolvency service would be brought into the Dail to answer questions on how things are going, which is abysmally, and he asked us if there were any questions we would like to pose. 

To that thread we should now add that David Hall has secured another major victory as Grant Thornton are now teaming up with him and offering themselves as PIP's. Free to the debtor and paid for by the banks apparently.


----------



## wbbs (1 Apr 2014)

That's it wrapped up so I would say, will be hard for the small guys to make a living.  To be honest if I wanted that service I would go to someone with a lot of experience in this area like Grant Thornton.    Was at a seminar of their couple of years back where they said they would have teams on the road throughout Ireland to deal with cases, don't know if they have gone ahead with that or not but this link up would put them well placed.


----------



## Dr.Debt (1 Apr 2014)

I do think that David Hall and the IMHO have done a fantastic job in promoting themselves as being "open for business". This has all been done on a shoe string budget, a handful of staff and buckets of common sense and intelligence. David Hall
has to be commended for forging workable alliances with the banks, the debtors and now even PIPs. Is this not what a properly functioning insolvency service should be doing ?

This is in sharp contrast to the ISI , having an annual budget / cost base of 7.2 million euro and currently employing 89 people. The ISI had projected that it would be processing 15,000 cases per year but so far (according to unofficial reports) has only managed to conclude 10 !!! This is a dramatic failure by any stretch of the imagination. The ISI has made several weak attempts to justify its existence and so far has declined to give any meaningful statistics about its progress.. Formal arrangements do have a place but clearly only a handful of staff are needed for this and an annual budget of maybe 300,000. What a total waste of taxpayers money this is and will continue to be until someone cries halt.

I believe that some of this 7.2 million euro budget needs to be diverted away from the ISI as soon as possible to where it is really needed and where it will be most effective in sorting out the insolvency challenges facing us. Hopefully the next Justice Minister will address this as a matter of urgency


----------



## Bronte (1 Apr 2014)

Dr.Debt said:


> This is in sharp contrast to the ISI , having an annual budget / cost base of 7.4 million euro and currently employing 89 people.
> 
> Hopefully the next Justice Minister will address this as a matter of urgency


 

Wow, 7.4 million, 89 people, and a caseload of 10 or so. I wonder what IMHO would have done with such a budget. 

In relation to the Justice Minister, whatever about the ISI being abysmal, the legislation has had to be tweaked so many times already and the system is not working, so maybe if the dirt continues we'll get a JM who is not only cleverer than everybody, actually gets things done.


----------

