# management fees outstanding



## oilpainting (3 Apr 2008)

hi i have recently moved into a new estate and joined the res. commitee,there is a lot of people living in the estate for 2 years now who have not paid their management fees,reason given that they live in houses and 500per yr is something they are not prepared to pay,although they would have signed their contracts at the beginning to pay thei fees....
we are now in a position where we cannot afford to pay contractors who are maintaining the estate because we are in debt,the outstanding management fees owed is quite large....we have a good residents commitee now set up and we are working well with our management company who has issued letter after letter to ask for the payments with no response they seemed to have banded together agaist paying the fee.... is there any suggestions of how we might handle this issue from anyone in a similar situation .... any advice much appreciated xx


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## Marianne S (3 Apr 2008)

Sorry I haven't been in your position so i'm unable to help but just wanted to offer my support becasue I really feel for you. The house owners obviously don't realise what their management fees pay for or they don't care, do people not realise there are certain things that have to be paid for. Could the resident's committee hold an information meeting or an EGM and explain to the resident's what their fees pay for and the consequences of not paying them. Can the management company take legal action against the homeowners who have defaulted on their fees?


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## oilpainting (3 Apr 2008)

hi thanks for reply... yeah we are all coming together recently as a comittee and we have alot of active members inc. solicitor and the like and we are getting advice and communicating as a group... i think we are going to start dealing with this issue now to get it resolved for the future... i think each house has to pay 380 per year for street lighting and landscaping but because we have apts on this side i think they think they are paying more than they need to not realising that we are actually now covering their essential costs.... im thinking it will eventually get resolved and i have heard today that we can go to their banks who they have morgages with and threaten action that way......but it may take a while xx


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## shesells (3 Apr 2008)

If you have a management company do you also have a management agent? If so part of their duties would include collection of debts if necessary by engaging a debt collection agent.


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## oilpainting (3 Apr 2008)

yes he was the one who told us all the info at our a.g.ms,basically people were getting onto him about maintainance and he came back and said he was behind and in debt due to fees outstanding as a reason for the delays..... he has sent the letters etc to the people not paying,but we have only recently started communicating as a committee so i think word will get around and people will have a chance to pay and if not they will know the consequences soon enough... but because its been a new estate i dont think any of the residents have been too bothered to know whats goin but now there is about 15 on the commitee i think we will see some change.... xx


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## shesells (4 Apr 2008)

It's up to the agent to hand this over to a debt collection agency. The costs of this will be built into the fees to be paid by those in arrears. Don't nicey nicey this, they've been asked for the money and refused. Bring in the big guns and it won't happen again.


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## AKA (4 Apr 2008)

Yes, people do start to get interested when the debt collection letters are issued.  They will have to pay the fee plus interest plus solicitors fees if they lose.


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## liaconn (16 Apr 2008)

The problem is that a lot of people, fed up with their management agents' inadequacies, decide to withold the fee as a way of protesting. They don't seem to realise that the only people who suffer from this are the other members of the management company, whose paid up fees are now covering the shortfall. In other words they're paying the same amount for a reduced service while the people who pay nothing are still benefitting from bin collections, street lighting, landscaping etc. If people have a problem with the agents they should go to the AGM, voice their objections, propose changing management agencies, hound the agents with their complaints etc. But don't withold your fee, its not fair on the other residents.


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## rastus21 (20 Apr 2008)

I live in a house within a mixed development and the mngt fees were calculated by sqm and not related to the service. my fee is 895 euro while a 3 bed apartment is 700 euro.

This is why home owners are reluctant to pay the fees. they are advised to pay the initial fee to get the house by the solicitor otherwise the sale won't close. Then wait until the agm and fight to get it changed.

We had our agm and people came with all their personal gripes with the builders as they are still on the BOD.

As to details we have received no budget or how the fees are broken down, the mngt has block insurance that covers houses now. But this was not the case when we closed as the mngt co was not registered yet. The insurance policy was held in the builders name at the time. So all the houses took out insurance policies privately. At the agm the mngt co said they would send letters out so we could get a refund on the insurance - but will the insurance co give 1 yr refund or 2 or 3.

Things like this really upset the home owners, then the mngt co talk about value for money and send us emails we will respond - they don't!

If this whole management company / agent lark was made clear to house buyers we wouldn't need all these forums! 

The saddest thing is if someone issued a document in black and white at the beginning clearly stating what you pay, why you pay and what services you can expect to get from paying mngt fees. Then everybody would be more accepting to paying for it.

Its like buying a ham sandwich over the counter or from the fridge... most people go over the counter because they know what they are buying.

I'm in the position now as to whether its worthwhile paying if no other house owners are going to pay.



liaconn said:


> The problem is that a lot of people, fed up with their management agents' inadequacies, decide to withold the fee as a way of protesting. They don't seem to realise that the only people who suffer from this are the other members of the management company, whose paid up fees are now covering the shortfall. In other words they're paying the same amount for a reduced service while the people who pay nothing are still benefitting from bin collections, street lighting, landscaping etc. If people have a problem with the agents they should go to the AGM, voice their objections, propose changing management agencies, hound the agents with their complaints etc. But don't withold your fee, its not fair on the other residents.


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## liaconn (21 Apr 2008)

rastus21 said:


> I live in a house within a mixed development and the mngt fees were calculated by sqm and not related to the service. my fee is 895 euro while a 3 bed apartment is 700 euro.
> 
> This is why home owners are reluctant to pay the fees. they are advised to pay the initial fee to get the house by the solicitor otherwise the sale won't close. Then wait until the agm and fight to get it changed.
> 
> ...


 
I do understand where you're coming from and feel like screaming myself sometimes when I'm trying to deal with our property agents. This whole business was allowed develop in a completely unregulated way and these businesses get away with murder. They are answerable to nobody and can get away with not providing services which have been paid for upfront by the Mangement Company ie the residents. Whoever allowed this to happen (Dept of Environment??) should be shot. There is a commitment in the Programme for Government to do something about the situation but I haven't seen any signs yet. In the meantime, hard pressed first time buyers are paying the price (literally). I will never, ever again buy in a privately managed estate. The system just doesn't work.


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## contractor (21 Apr 2008)

oilpainting said:


> hi i have recently moved into a new estate and joined the res. commitee,there is a lot of people living in the estate for 2 years now who have not paid their management fees,reason given that they live in houses and 500per yr is something they are not prepared to pay,although they would have signed their contracts at the beginning to pay thei fees....
> we are now in a position where we cannot afford to pay contractors who are maintaining the estate because we are in debt,the outstanding management fees owed is quite large....we have a good residents commitee now set up and we are working well with our management company who has issued letter after letter to ask for the payments with no response they seemed to have banded together agaist paying the fee.... is there any suggestions of how we might handle this issue from anyone in a similar situation .... any advice much appreciated xx



My advice is stop this illegal charge and hand it over to the people we pay our taxes to.  T*here is a need for a management fee in apartments*, to upkeep the common areas, lifts, carpet cleaning etc.  But houses take care of their own gardens and upkeep their own homes.  We pay our taxes which include paying ESB for electricity to street lights, mowing lawns, cutting shrubs and bushes etc.  I was told sign the contract or you are not getting the house, so I signed. 

My experience with taking the suggested route of going to the AGM results in being told "you signed the contract so tough" or "its the law" or some other spout about not being insured if someone trips over their laces.  Its all rubbish, you can take it out of my taxes.


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## oilpainting (21 Apr 2008)

i know but in these new developments because they are private we have to pay for the street lighting and the landscaping of a large park in our estate among other things... my issue is that the estate is up and running for 2 and a half years now and our services are being diminished because the fees are outstanding but the people who are not paying are getting their services paid for by the rest of us because the lighting and landscaping has not been cut... what would you propose to do?stop everyone from paying the fees and take on the management company allowing the estate to fall to pieces while we wait to get it resloved?....

the whole thing does seem quite complicated and i can see the point that if people lived in a house that they have to pay for extra costs-but private run estates have to pay for the maintainance of it,the people who have issue with it have a right to but after 2 and a half years i think they need to start dealing with it....


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## contractor (21 Apr 2008)

oilpainting said:


> i know but in these new developments because they are private we have to pay for the street lighting and the landscaping of a large park in our estate among other things... my issue is that the estate is up and running for 2 and a half years now and our services are being diminished because the fees are outstanding but the people who are not paying are getting their services paid for by the rest of us because the lighting and landscaping has not been cut... what would you propose to do?stop everyone from paying the fees and take on the management company allowing the estate to fall to pieces while we wait to get it resloved?....
> 
> the whole thing does seem quite complicated and i can see the point that if people lived in a house that they have to pay for extra costs-but private run estates have to pay for the maintainance of it,the people who have issue with it have a right to but after 2 and a half years i think they need to start dealing with it....



I'm not claiming its as simply as this but if people stop paying, it stops becoming private.  There's obvious need for government intervention here but in the meantime I'll take care of my own shrubs thank you very much.  They can switch the street light out if they want but there'll be alot of tax payers looking for their money back.

To more directly answer your question I think the solution is to stop maintaining the common areas shared by the houses and only take care of the apartments.  See what happens when the bushes get too bushy or the grass too long. I think you'll find people are resourceful enough to deal with it without having to fork out €500 pa.


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## ailbhe (21 Apr 2008)

Well, the option to have the estate taken in hand by the council is always an option. It usually takes a few years though. 
I'm lucky in that we have an excellent managment company. The prices are higher for the apartments than the houses (as insurance etc is included) and all the houses pay the same regardless of what sq ft the house is.

We have an annual AGM which a lot of people go to and we get detailed accounts at the end of the year detailing all the income and expenditure.
There were only 5 houses out of 250 that didn't pay the fees and the solicitors letters got them to cough up. I think when you see a managment system that is run effectivly, you see that it IS worth the money. The green areas are always tidy, each season the gardeners come and replant seasonal shrubs etc. We have a fund where any excess at the end of the year is put into improving the estate (like the playground we got this year). We also have a painting fund where we all pay a bit extra and in 7/8 years all the exteriors of the houses and apartments will be painted, ensuring the colour scheme of the estate is maintained and no houses are let go to ruin.

People also don't seem to realise that when the time arises for them to sell that they are better off to be selling a house in an estate that is neat and tidy with a sense of community and a good reputaion than trying to sell where the estate is not maintained. For one of the biggest purchases of your life, i cannot see why people resent the upkeep of the area.


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## rastus21 (21 Apr 2008)

I'm all for paying a management fee if the funds are being used responsibly and there is value in it. We all pay taxes too, but it would be nice to live in an estate like yours ailbhe.

The problem with ours is the builders have left a large mess behind and keep referring the management co / agent to deal with the problem.

Also upon signing, no one was told the in and outs of dealing with the management company/ agent. upon signing they should have issued a booklet that says, problem y - go to agent, problem x - go to builder, problem z - go to council. Services by council, mngt co, agm will be on blah.... get the point.

People want to know where they stand and what they are getting for their money. We know that taxes won't cover refuse anymore, probably won't cover water in a few years, public lighting too... as the govt find better ways to spend the tax payers money.

Tell me I'm paying 900 euro, for a house, but tell me why... let me buy into the management co / agents vision for the estate.

Solicitors letters just aren't good enough.


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## rastus21 (21 Apr 2008)

Oilpainting,

when dealing with the houses at this stage, tell them whats in the fee, where the houses benefit; and if they don't pay stop cleaning the litter outside their house, cutting the grass etc... maybe they will see the light when the rest of the estate has lovely front gardens and theirs is still shabby.

It is a tough call, but the law doesn't excactly help.


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## ontour (21 Apr 2008)

if people choose not to pay the fees, the management company should assign an interest rate of 20-30% pa.  In this way, those people will eventually pay more of the overall costs thus reducing the contribution of the people that pay on time.

In most managed developments a property will not be sold if the purchasers solictor can not determine that fees are up to date - so it will catch up with people eventually.

There is probably a good opportunity for someone to buy discounted debt from management companies and seek to collect it themselves.  They could use some of the burly construction workers currently looking for employment to encourage the person to pay up!  And then when the coffers of these management companies were flush again, they could afford to employ the construction workers to maintain the development...recession averted !


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## shesells (21 Apr 2008)

rastus21 said:


> Also upon signing, no one was told the in and outs of dealing with the management company/ agent. upon signing they should have issued a booklet that says, problem y - go to agent, problem x - go to builder, problem z - go to council. Services by council, mngt co, agm will be on blah.... get the point.
> 
> People want to know where they stand and what they are getting for their money. We know that taxes won't cover refuse anymore, probably won't cover water in a few years, public lighting too... as the govt find better ways to spend the tax payers money.
> 
> ...


 
Speaking of solicitors, yours should have given you more info on the situation with the management company. Bottom line is you signed that you would pay and you will have to pay. Either now or later. Now is much better for everyone.

Take your protest to the AGM or call an EGM but all owners signed legal documents to say they would pay and not paying is in nobody's interest. Forget vision, think responsibility.


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## oilpainting (21 Apr 2008)

hi.... yes the residents in the houses feel that When they bought the house they were told that the fee would be €288 (or there abouts) but this increased to €468 for 07/08, and they say that the company could not give a breakdown as to why it had increased so much,from what i understand it went up to cover expanding costs..... the management agent couldnt give an itimised bill for just their section because we are all one estate....this turned into weeks and months and now it is the end of this year and the issue has never been resolved......is 468 a standard fee for a house to pay???im paying 1373 myself. for a 2bed apt...they also argued that i get more for my fee because they dont get bins,window washing,cleaning etc thrown in for their fee... i mentioned that their main fee is landscaping and street lighting,but they stil feel they are being overcharged...

also an interesting thread about the government taking over the new estates

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=76382 
here is an excerpt... 

Good news on the management company / agent front: 

Irish Times 28/02 

"Gormley's circular to send local authorities into a spin 
THE CAT is going to be truly put among the pigeons by Environment Minister John Gormley's circular to the local authorities which gives them a deadline of June this year to update their policies in relation to taking housing estates in charge. 
The minister wants the local authorities to meet their obligations and start maintaining non-gated housing estates around the country which will come as good news to many residents. 
The rash of new estates built in the boom saw many of the local authorities wash their hands of them by insisting in the planning conditions that a management company be set up to maintain them. 
This has caused mayhem in many estates with some residents refusing to pay their service charge on the basis that they shouldn't have to pay money for the upkeep of the grounds if the estate up the road is being maintained by the council for free. 
The result is that many management companies go into the red and the estates become shabby around the edges. 
But according to the Irish Home Builders' Association director Hubert Fitzpatrick this doesn't necessarily mean that residents can stop paying their charges. "If a management company has been set up, then charges are legally due," he says. 
The current situation is that residents can request that the council take the estate in charge and if planning permission has expired for more than seven years. 
Fitzpatrick says there are still situations where some sort of management company arrangement is needed, particularly where there is extensive landscaping which the councils generally won't take on." 

The main principles now set out in the overall framework for taking in charge are: 
A statement of the facilities that will be taken in charge and the maintenance services that will be provided must be set out and the issue of taking in charge must be addressed at the pre-planning stage with the approved design facilitating the taking in charge of core facilities; 
Developers will be required, through the development management process /permission, to complete residential developments to a standard that is in compliance with the planning permission granted; 
Planning authorities must take all necessary measures in this regard in particular through securing adequate bonds, inspection of construction and enforcement action when necessary; 
The procedures for taking in charge will begin promptly on foot of a request by the majority of the residents in the development or by the developer, as appropriate. Protocols, including time frames, must be set out by planning authorities to respond to requests for taking in charge; 
In general, planning authorities must not attach management companies as a condition of planning in respect of traditional housing estates; 
In relation to older estates, priority must continue to be placed on resolving those estates that have been left unfinished /not taken in charge for the longest period.
_________________


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## shesells (21 Apr 2008)

Our houses pay around €1100 so you're getting off lightly!


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## rastus21 (21 Apr 2008)

Shesells,

what does the 1100 pay for? My agent tells me they don't deal with houses? Then they send a letter asking for the fees!

I was only informed recently that the block insurance covers houses too. So when I get a policy so I can prove to the bankers that the house is insured I will be handing the refund due on the double insurance to mngt co. = fees paid

But getting policy when they don't deal with you is heart breaking!


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## shesells (21 Apr 2008)

Block insurance (including houses afaik), refuse, street lighting, landscaping, common area cleaning and lighting (only shared entrance apartments benefit but we all have to pay), caretaker.....those are the things that I can think of off the top of my head.

We have the problem that our leases are structured so we pay based on unit size rather than type so basically everyone else subsidises the services that the shared door apartments get. We have looked into it _ad nauseum_ and that can't be changed. It would have been helpful if our solicitor had explained it but didn't so we're stuck with it. Still we have a really nice development so it's six of one and half a dozen of the other.


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## rastus21 (23 Apr 2008)

Hi Shesells,

After receiving some information, not everything I wanted but enough until  our committee meetings. I have paid all my debts and my conscience is clear. Thanks


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