# Macbook or conventional laptop?



## Boi (30 Nov 2008)

Hello everyone.I have 1000 euros to spend on a laptop.trying to decide what to get.I currently have toshiba bought 3 years ago and want to change(it is still working fine,just need something new).
can anyone recommend a good one?Also,i wonder if macbook/apple would be good.I have never used mac before,used windows all my life.
basically my questions are:
1) pros/cons of mac or windows laptops.
2)recommendations of a good one out there in the market.
3)going to new york next week-will it be cheaper to buy there,if so which store?should i be worried about after sales when i come back?
4)just incase i get mac,will i have problems viewing some programs stored/created with windows and vice versa? i do a lot of presentation-powerpoint.

 my needs:
a)speed-hate a slow computer.
b) wireless
c) built in camera and microphone
d)HD capabilities
e)my other half may need to play computer games on it.
f)DVD re-writer
g)bluetooth would be a welcome bonus
h)my budget is flexible,want something that is really good and would last a long long time!
thanks in advance.


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## Diziet (30 Nov 2008)

i got a MacBook last year, and would never go back to Windows again. It does take some getting used to though. I am very happy with it - the usabiliy, stability and speed are a different world from windows.

Don't get a MacBookAir if you want speed. The MacBookPro is the top of the range, the MacBook is in the middle.

If you know someone who works for Apple, they can get you a discount. Or anyone who is in education; students also get good discounts.


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## rob30 (30 Nov 2008)

I got a standard macbook 2 months ago, after getting annoyed with pc laptops malfunctioning after 18 months, and love it. ( I am not blaming PCs, I readily admit it may be me). The macbook has never frozen on me, no error messages, starts up and shuts down nice and quickly and is quite easy to learn how to use once a used the tutorial on the apple website.
Safar was the browser that came withit, but I had to download firefox, as google toolbar does not work with safari.
My printer will need to be replaced though, as it does not work with a mac apparently 
I got mine for 999 euro, but a friend who works in apple can get it for around 750 I think.


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## askalot (30 Nov 2008)

Boi said:


> my needs:
> a)speed-hate a slow computer.
> b) wireless
> c) built in camera and microphone
> ...



I've always used Macs and would be a fan of the OS but points (d) and (e) rules them out in your case. No Mac, laptop ot desktop, has HD capabilities yet and while the choice of games has improved in the past while, it is still nowhere near the selection available for PC.



Boi said:


> h)my budget is flexible,want something that is really good and would last a long long time!
> thanks in advance.



I know plenty of people with Macbooks and have found them to be underpowered and cheap looking for the price. Though the new 'brick' build may improve that a bit. The MacBook Pro is a great machine but way, way over priced IMHO. If you have the money and don't mind paying over the odds then get that. 

Have a look at the refurbished section on :

http://store.apple.com/ie

Worth checking there from time to time as they can have some good deals for refurbished machines. I know people who have purchased refurbished Macs and they have had no problems.

There is a huge Apple Store in New York so depending on the exchange rate you will make some savings by buying there.


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## krissovo (30 Nov 2008)

I switched to a Macbook last year and its the best thing I have ever done on a computer.

The key area is now I am more productive as I am not fighting spyware and constantly rebooting.  It does just work!


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## CrazyWater (1 Dec 2008)

I switched to a MacBook last week and love it and there is no way I would go back to a windows laptop.

I also have parallels for windows installed on it so I can run a virtual window machine right there on my MacBook. 

Best thing of all: everything works!


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## zag (1 Dec 2008)

What's the deal with student discounts referenced above ?  I have children in primary school, so if I were to buy for them then could I get the discount ?  Do you need to buy through the school. or is there a discount code or something that is used to get the discount ?

z


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## Ron Burgundy (1 Dec 2008)

we have 3 macs, a macbook, a macbook al and a mac mini......PC never allowed in our home again

But HD can be achived if files are downloaded ( use vlc and not quicktime )


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## mathepac (1 Dec 2008)

zag said:


> What's the deal with student discounts referenced above ?  I have children in primary school, so if I were to buy for them then could I get the discount ?  Do you need to buy through the school. or is there a discount code or something that is used to get the discount ?
> 
> z



Try here http://store.apple.com/ie/browse/home/education_routing?mco=MTIxODk0Nw

Unfortunately it seems, although I haven't checked, the discounts only apply to 2nd and 3rd level students, teachers and staff.

Try the lo-call number on the page for more information.


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## michaelm (2 Dec 2008)

Macs are overpriced and the devotion shown by some to Macs and other Apple products seems to me, at times, to be quasi-religious.   Those looking to swerve Windows would get better value from a PC Hardware based laptop running Linux or Solaris.  Linux is not great for playing games so to tick all your boxes and get the best bang for your buck you probably should look at getting an XP Pro (Vista is very slow) laptop from one of the main manufacturers like HP or Dell.


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## Strathspey (2 Dec 2008)

Ron Burgundy said:


> we have 3 macs, a macbook, a macbook al and a mac mini......PC never allowed in our home again
> 
> But HD can be achived if files are downloaded ( use vlc and not quicktime )


 
They're all, 'Intel Inside', so you're just paying over the top for packaging. As an engineer, practicality dictates that I use a PC.


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## krissovo (2 Dec 2008)

Strathspey said:


> As an engineer, practicality dictates that I use a PC.



You need to be a engineer to run a PC smoothly  I was PC and microsoft through and through for years.  In my work I gained MCSE in NT4 and 2000 and even with that experience working with a PC was still frustrating.

Yes Mac's are expensive but so is my time!  I save money by being more productive.


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## Ron Burgundy (2 Dec 2008)

Strathspey said:


> They're all, 'Intel Inside', so you're just paying over the top for packaging. As an engineer, practicality dictates that I use a PC.


 
Your thoughts, but when any of my macs crash i'll let you know. 3 years and no problems with any of them. Oh my PC in work crashed yesterday and last week and the week before and so on and so no and so on.

I am paying for a unit that works and does not crash, eh i got it and when using a computer during a live performance you can't take any chances with providing a service to a client. If this costs extra i will pay it. 

Wht not "engineer" me a pc that doesn't crash  and have clients staring at me and asking where is the music


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## Ron Burgundy (2 Dec 2008)

michaelm;756772[B said:
			
		

> ]Macs are overpriced and the devotion shown by some to Macs and other Apple products seems to me, at times, to be quasi-religious[/B]. Those looking to swerve Windows would get better value from a PC Hardware based laptop running Linux or Solaris. Linux is not great for playing games so to tick all your boxes and get the best bang for your buck you probably should look at getting an XP Pro (Vista is very slow) laptop from one of the main manufacturers like HP or Dell.


 
And the Bill Gates love in isn't ??? When you've used windows based PC for a number of years that keeps giving problems AND THEN you get a computer that works and doesn't crash, freeze or just give up......then why not be happy and tell others about it ???

I agree with Linux but along with the way my Mac works i love OS and find it so easy to use comapred to Windows. Oh and i am about to install a lovely football management game on mine


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## Sherman (2 Dec 2008)

michaelm said:


> Macs are overpriced and the devotion shown by some to Macs and other Apple products seems to me, at times, to be quasi-religious. Those looking to swerve Windows would get better value from a PC Hardware based laptop running Linux or Solaris. Linux is not great for playing games so to tick all your boxes and get the best bang for your buck you probably should look at getting an XP Pro (Vista is very slow) laptop from one of the main manufacturers like HP or Dell.


 
Macs are expensive compared to similarly-specced PCs, no doubt about it. However, having switched to a Macbook 18 mths ago, I will never buy a PC for personal use again (work on PC). As I have said here before, I'm not a techie, have no interest in being one, and just want a computer that works first time, every time, connects with external devices with no hitches, and yes, looks nice


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## extopia (2 Dec 2008)

Sherman said:


> Macs are expensive compared to similarly-specced PCs, no doubt about it.



Actually it's been shown time and time again that this is not the case. Here's one example: 

[broken link removed]


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## krissovo (2 Dec 2008)

michaelm said:


> Those looking to swerve Windows would get better value from a PC Hardware based laptop running Linux or Solaris.  Linux is not great for playing games .



I did the Linux route for 5 months and that was as if not more frustrating as my Windoze experience.  I tried probably 10 flavours and each still require extensive tweaking to get them running normally.

They boot up fine and you can surf the web fine but anything out of the ordinary like adding a usb peripheral can be heartache


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## CGorman (2 Dec 2008)

Boi said:


> i do a lot of presentation-powerpoint.



There are alternatives on Mac, but if you use Powerpoint, Word, Excel etc. alot, you will find it a bit of a pain, particularly if sharing with PC users.



Boi said:


> a)speed-hate a slow computer.



Due to the Mac "premium" you will pay more to get the same speed on a Mac vs. PC



Boi said:


> d)HD capabilities


Ditto what Askalot said



Boi said:


> e)my other half may need to play computer games on it.



My gf has a Mac, and this is the single worst thing about Macs - it is driving her mad! Many of the newer titles are on Mac, but only a select few of the bestsellers; and most older games are'nt. Plus the price of games for mac is much more than for PC.

Personally I think Mac's are built to work well with certain software suites and they are fantastic for certain high end media tasks such as film editing and magazine publication. For the vast majority of more mundane tasks, a PC is better.


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## Ron Burgundy (2 Dec 2008)

CGorman said:


> There are alternatives on Mac, but if you use Powerpoint, Word, Excel etc. alot, you will find it a bit of a pain, particularly if sharing with PC users.


 
I use open office and never have any problems ( free as well )


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## NorfBank (2 Dec 2008)

CrazyWater said:


> I switched to a MacBook last week and love it and there is no way I would go back to a windows laptop.
> 
> I also have parallels for windows installed on it so I can run a virtual window machine right there on my MacBook.
> 
> Best thing of all: everything works!



+ 1

See 

http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/bootcamp.html


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## CGorman (2 Dec 2008)

Ron Burgundy said:


> I use open office and never have any problems ( free as well )



All I know is my girlfriend created several documents & presentations on her mac in college using openoffice and when it came to displaying them on the college pcs in traditional microsoft format; they came out awful with formating etc. markedly different.


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## Diziet (2 Dec 2008)

Strathspey said:


> They're all, 'Intel Inside', so you're just paying over the top for packaging. As an engineer, practicality dictates that I use a PC.



I'd say the OS is a little more than 'packaging' . The Unix based OS is brilliant.

I am an engineer too, and I hesitated before ordering the Mac for work. But it works like a dream. I have Windows installed on it too (just in case!) but haven't needed it at all.


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## mathepac (2 Dec 2008)

Diziet said:


> I'd say the OS is a little more than 'packaging' . The Unix based OS is brilliant...



Apple are reaping the benefits of buying NextStep and bringing Steve Jobs back. A brave move scrapping the legacy OS (6, 7, 8, 9) and releasing OS X.


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## extopia (2 Dec 2008)

The latest Macs run Windows natively (and it runs better than on many PCs). No need for a virtual machine.


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## Pedro1 (3 Dec 2008)

Bought a Macbook last Xmas as a present for better half and have had to replace the power supply twice and also replace the casing due to it cracking ( a known issue). All this was done on warranty but it does make me question the quality of the product. The Macbook only gets about 20 hours use per week so it's barely used and treated well.

Regarding cost I believe that they cost the same as a comparable dell laptop. At the time I went to Dell website and spec'ed the same hardware configuration and the cost was similar.

Bottom line is to understand what you want to do with it. If you just need to surf the web and do general word docs etc, a standard laptop might do. I also have an Acer running XP for about €450 which gets much more use/abuse than the Macbook and is plenty fast for general usage.

Macbook 
Pros: 
- Cool design, looks great and has nice design features (magsafe connector etc)
- iWorks much cheaper than Office and works/looks great.
- Customer service very helpful

Cons:
- Expensive as a laptop for general use.
- Build quality ( at least in my case)

Would I buy another Mac ...

I'm tempted to buy a 24" iMac but the quality issues I've seen on the MacBook scares me off spending €1600 on a machine that may die/have problems within a few short years ...


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## extopia (3 Dec 2008)

Pedro1 said:


> I'm tempted to buy a 24" iMac but the quality issues I've seen on the MacBook scares me off spending €1600 on a machine that may die/have problems within a few short years ...



I'd say you were just unlucky with your Macbook, to be honest. I've bought 4 desktop macs and two laptops over the last 8 years or so. Never had any trouble with any of them really, and all of them are still running.


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## Sherman (3 Dec 2008)

Pedro1 said:


> I'm tempted to buy a 24" iMac



Don't buy it just yet - very likely the iMac range will be substantially updated in January 2009.


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## Ron Burgundy (3 Dec 2008)

CGorman said:


> All I know is my girlfriend created several documents & presentations on her mac in college using openoffice and when it came to displaying them on the college pcs in traditional microsoft format; they came out awful with formating etc. markedly different.


 
It all depends on the file extension you save it as


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## CGorman (3 Dec 2008)

Ron Burgundy said:


> It all depends on the file extension you save it as



Oh I know that, i'm savvy enough with it all - but at the time my gf was relatively unfamiliar with mucking about with things like that - she wanted to simply do things the windows way and was annoyed at having to change her thinking. My point is its easy for people who know alot about pc/laptops - but for many general users its a pain in the...


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## Ron Burgundy (3 Dec 2008)

CGorman said:


> Oh I know that, i'm savvy enough with it all - but at the time my gf was relatively unfamiliar with mucking about with things like that - she wanted to simply do things the windows way and was annoyed at having to change her thinking. My point is its easy for people who know alot about pc/laptops - but for many general users its a pain in the...


 
True but if you know enough to find and download the software, chosing the right file extension shouldn't be a problem !!!!


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## Ron Burgundy (3 Dec 2008)

Sherman said:


> Don't buy it just yet - very likely the iMac range will be substantially updated in January 2009.


 
true at MacWorld there are going to be a lot of new Apple prodcuts launched.


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## Strathspey (3 Dec 2008)

Strathspey said:


> They're all, 'Intel Inside', so you're just paying over the top for packaging. As an engineer, practicality dictates that I use a PC.


 
Try running MATLAB release 12 or SynaptiCAD on a MAC. 
So back to my previous point, '...practicality dictates that I use a PC'.


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## Ron Burgundy (3 Dec 2008)

Strathspey said:


> *Try running MATLAB release 12 or SynaptiCAD on a MAC. *
> So back to my previous point, '...practicality dictates that I use a PC'.


 

Well i don't need to.


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## mro (3 Dec 2008)

you can buy Microsoft office for Macs too. So you don't need to use openoffice, unless of course you want to.


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## Strathspey (3 Dec 2008)

Ron Burgundy said:


> Well i don't need to.


 
Well, I do!


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## Ron Burgundy (3 Dec 2008)

mro said:


> you can buy Microsoft office for Macs too. So you don't need to use openoffice, unless of course you want to.


 
Yeah i have both


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## Ron Burgundy (3 Dec 2008)

Strathspey said:


> Well, I do!


 
well good luck with that


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## michaelm (3 Dec 2008)

Ron Burgundy said:


> And the Bill Gates love in isn't ???


I'm not sure many people 'love' Gates or MS.





extopia said:


> Actually it's been shown time and time again that this is not the case. Here's one example


I'm dubious about that statement.  Your example may suggest that Apple products are more competitively priced in USA but here I think you'll find that with Macs you'll get lower specs and lower performance for your euro.  My own preference is for ubuntu on a standard PC.  I find iMacs and MacPros to be slow and I hate the keyboards/mice.


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## extopia (4 Dec 2008)

Strathspey said:


> Try running MATLAB release 12 or SynaptiCAD on a MAC.



You can run any PC application on a mac. Macs can run windows, any version of windows, natively as a boot-up option.


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## extopia (4 Dec 2008)

michaelm said:


> Your example may suggest that Apple products are more competitively priced in USA but here I think you'll find that with Macs you'll get lower specs and lower performance for your euro.



Having bought macs and PCs on both continents, I think not. There are many comparisons like the example I quoted. You need to compare specs carefully. Look at the quality of the components as well as just the spec.

It IS true, however, that Apple does not participate in the low-price segment of the market.


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## Ron Burgundy (4 Dec 2008)

extopia said:


> You can run any PC application on a mac. *Macs can run windows*, any version of windows, natively as a boot-up option.


 
But why would you want to. The majority of people who buys Macs do so to get away from windows !!!


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## Boi (4 Dec 2008)

Thank you all for your advise/input.overall looks like Mac gets the thumps up!?I sure will check the apple store in new york while I am there next week.


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## Ron Burgundy (4 Dec 2008)

Boi said:


> Thank you all for your advise/input.overall looks like Mac gets the thumps up!?I sure will check the apple store in new york while I am there next week.


 
Yeah the store on 5th avenue beside central park is a great store and the staff are great. As with all things Apple it looks good too !!

The Aplle aluminium is the latest release of the Macbook. I got one 2 weeks ago and love it. So thin compared to my other one and as usual, no problems !!!


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## extopia (4 Dec 2008)

Ron Burgundy said:


> But why would you want to. The majority of people who buys Macs do so to get away from windows !!!



I agree. My point is that if you have one or two must-have applications that only run under Windows, that doesn't mean that the mac is not an option.


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## Sherman (4 Dec 2008)

Ron Burgundy said:


> Yeah the store on 5th avenue beside central park is a great store and the staff are great. As with all things Apple it looks good too !!
> 
> The Aplle aluminium is the latest release of the Macbook. I got one 2 weeks ago and love it. So thin compared to my other one and as usual, no problems !!!


 
Try the one in Soho also - usually a lot less crowded with tourists than the 5th Avenue one.  Staff in both are really helpful...although they do keep trying to get you to drink their special Kool-Aid


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## Ron Burgundy (4 Dec 2008)

extopia said:


> I agree. My point is that if you have one or two must-have applications that only run under Windows, that doesn't mean that the mac is not an option.


 
Haven't had that problem yet. I've found something to suit all the way along......so far anyway.


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## Boi (2 Jan 2009)

extopia said:


> The latest Macs run Windows natively (and it runs better than on many PCs). No need for a virtual machine.


 
Got my macbook in new york and made huge savings!
how do i install windows on mac?I use VOIPcheap to make international calls and havent been successful running it on mac.do i have to buy some softwae for that(windows)


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## Technologist (2 Jan 2009)

extopia said:


> I agree. My point is that if you have one or two must-have applications that only run under Windows, that doesn't mean that the mac is not an option.


True, but to run Windows apps on a Mac, you need a another licensed copy of Windows.  I've a Mac for a nearly a year now and find I'm using my PC less and less. The Mac's boot-up time is amazingly quick and it plays high-definition video without a hiccup. The PC on the other hand is slow to boot and even with the a high-performance video card is buggy as hell. I really think Windows has lost the plot.


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## mathepac (2 Jan 2009)

Technologist said:


> True, but to run Windows apps on a Mac, you need a another licensed copy of Windows.. .


No you don't. You can install any one of a number of "host application environments" that allow you to install and run windoze (or Linux) applications under Mac OS X without the need for the Windoze OS (or Linux).

These are open-source or commercial developments based on Wabi / Wine  [broken link removed])

Ther's a repository of applications etc. here - http://www.winehq.org/


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## Diziet (2 Jan 2009)

Boi said:


> Got my macbook in new york and made huge savings!
> how do i install windows on mac?I use VOIPcheap to make international calls and havent been successful running it on mac.do i have to buy some softwae for that(windows)



Why not use Skype instead? You can also make Skype calls to conventional phones and mobiles for very little money. 

I would have thought this is preferable to getting Windows, and it's free!


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## jwestave (3 Mar 2009)

Did you buy a MAC or a PC - did you make the right decision??


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## Paddyboy0576 (17 Mar 2009)

Hi Boi!,
Im in exactly the same position as yourself. I have 1500 euros to buy a laptop. Im a bit sick of windows due to reasons pointed out by other persons here. What im wondering is whats the story with the apple site? the price of the laptop inflates so much by customising it to ones satisfaction. All these add ons are expensive which leads me to the question - what are beneficial and what are unnecessary. What i enjoy is collecting & playing around with family /holiday / friends photos. What is essential is that i can still for business reasons connect to Outlook which is run off a server in the office. My business is small and the volumne of emails i receive on my outlook is small but important all the same..Also is it work buying in the north given the difference in the price on the apple.co.uk site V apple.ie
As you can tell by my terminology im not  computer person but ide love realiability and simplicity....

Thanks in advance,
Pat


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## z103 (17 Mar 2009)

> Also is it work buying in the north given the difference in the price on the apple.co.uk site V apple.ie


Indeed. So blatant.
I got a macbook air in the UK and saved about €600. The price difference is crazy.


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## cerberos (3 Jul 2009)

Is the 13" Mac too small a screen?

Any 1 get annoyed after purchasing  1?


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## Sherman (3 Jul 2009)

Takes a bit of getting used to alright if you've only used clunky 15" plus Windows laptops before, but after a couple of days the overall usability, design and reliability makes you forget all about it.


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## j26 (3 Jul 2009)

Paddyboy0576 said:


> Hi Boi!,
> Im in exactly the same position as yourself. I have 1500 euros to buy a laptop. Im a bit sick of windows due to reasons pointed out by other persons here. What im wondering is whats the story with the apple site? the price of the laptop inflates so much by customising it to ones satisfaction. All these add ons are expensive which leads me to the question - what are beneficial and what are unnecessary. What i enjoy is collecting & playing around with family /holiday / friends photos. What is essential is that i can still for business reasons connect to Outlook which is run off a server in the office. My business is small and the volumne of emails i receive on my outlook is small but important all the same..Also is it work buying in the north given the difference in the price on the apple.co.uk site V apple.ie
> As you can tell by my terminology im not  computer person but ide love realiability and simplicity....
> 
> ...



If you're buying the plastic macbook, buy the standard one and upgrade yourself. It's very easy and only requires a size 00 screwdriver to upgrade the RAM and Hard Drive yourself, and it doesn't void the warranty.  They are hidden in the battery compartment.  Apple is well known for overcharging for extras, and you can get the components cheaper yourself.

I think the aluminium ones have built in batteries, and don't think they're as easy to upgrade.

If you plan on linking any of them up to external monitors, the adaptors are a must.


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## enol (3 Jul 2009)

yes, I agree with Sherman, you get used to screen size in a couple of days. I have a 24" iMac in work & a 13" MacBook at home, got used to both in a couple of days. The MacBook is great, I wouldn't buy the MacBook Pro just for the screen size alone, if you are happy with the spec on the MacBook, dont let the scren size put you off.


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## cerberos (4 Jul 2009)

Thx Guys.
When you lift the 15" it seems a lot bigger and heavier with the screen opened.
The DELL screen on their 15" laptop has a better solid hinge.
But the MAC 13 " it will be.


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## MandaC (5 Jul 2009)

Just got my new Macbook this afternoon after my Dell gave up completely last week.  Looking forward to getting stuck in.


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## mathepac (5 Jul 2009)

MandaC said:


> Just got my new Macbook this afternoon ...


Welcome to the club.


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## schmile (7 Jul 2009)

I got a mac over May 2007 and it is still working perfectly. (before that I had a HP laptop which cost the same and lasted a mere 8 months before giving trouble) I got it with a student discount if you know anyone in college/ 2nd level maybe they will do you a favour as you do save a lot. 
If buying in NY is still an option then I would recommend B and H.

You can run windows on a mac which does allow pc games. I did that in the beginning for about a year until I decided to do away with the pc side. Having the laptop dual booted is an easy way of easing yourself into the changes of a mac while still having the familiarity of a pc as well. I have yet to find one draw back with my mac. I can get the same programs that I would have used on a pc to work on a mac and there are several mac only programs that beat pc hands down. 

I don't plan on upgrading any time soon but when I do it will be another mac.


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## AlbacoreA (7 Jul 2009)

extopia said:


> Actually it's been shown time and time again that this is not the case. Here's one example:
> 
> [broken link removed]


 
Time and time again those comparisions are bogus. 

For example one of the Dells they bought in that article for $1358 (its a US article) I bought here in Ireland for €550. Theres no way I'd get a MacBook at that. Most of those PC vs Mac comparisons ignore all the discounts and offers that you can get and buy the PC at rip off prices. You can't shop around for Mac as the price is fixed. Even the Apple outlet has hardly any discount.


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## AlbacoreA (7 Jul 2009)

People with constant PC problems, Spyware etc. 

I'm always puzzled at these kinda comments. I work in IT and the vast majority of people have no problems with Windows or PC's like this. Equally working in IT you end being asked about IT questions from family and friends and there again most people have no problems and run a computer for 3 to 4 yrs with no problems. Crashes are rare tbh. If you are getting riddle with spyware, and having constant crashes you've got to ask what are ye doing. Because thats not normal. Also I find it bit hard to accept tech recommendations from people who struggled to use a PC. No offense intended. 

That said Mac's are great. I've used them since the blank and white compact mac's. in the early 1990's. But like others I've always needed to use a PC at the same time. So happy with both. At the moment I'd avoid buying a PC for the techophobes until Windows 7 comes out. Its a vast improvement over Vista. If you don't like Windows, or just like Mac's just buy one. They are great.


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