# Fined €160 & €75 costs for no TV licence but never got a summons?



## gollum (20 Nov 2007)

I today received notification from the local district court that I have been fined €160 & €75 costs for no TV licence, to be paid before February next.

I'm disgusted as I received no letter from an post about legal proceedings or no summons to appear. This fine notification is the first I've heard about this! IIRC, I may have received a postcard a few months ago saying a TV licence inspector had called & would call again.

Can this really happen in this day & age? To be convicted of an offence without ever knowing about it? I'm disabled & spend much of my time in hospital. Even if I could affort this €235 fine I wouldn't pay it. As a matter of principle, I'm disgusted.

Anyone any advice as to what I should do?

Sorry, I should have added that I found this forum through google & have read through the recent TV licence thread. This is slightly different though so I thought deserved its own thread.


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## ajapale (20 Nov 2007)

*Re: Fined €160 & €75 costs for no TV licence but never got a summons?*

moved from Legal-Financial issues to Phones, DVDs, TVs, Audio/Visual which is where TV licence discussions are generally to be found.


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## Darando (20 Nov 2007)

Surely you must have to be caught with a television to be prosecuted (i.e. actually open a door and they see the television)

They can't go on an assumption!!!

(side issue - you should have had a licence!! )


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## onlineprint (20 Nov 2007)

Legally you can appeal this in the Circuit Court, you have 14 days from when the original court date, even if you didnt know about it. You should ring your local district court office to see what to do next


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## gollum (20 Nov 2007)

ajapale,
This is more a legal problem than a TV licence problem. I've been fined without receiveing a summons or notification of court proceedings. It really has nothing to do with  Phones, DVDs, TVs, Audio/Visual.

I understand I can appeal to the circuit court but won't that involve huge legal fees with solicitors etc.? Not to mention the inconvenience of attending......I'm disabled remember.
On the licence front, I should actually have a free one as I'm in receipt of a disability allowence from DSFA. That hasn't come through yet though.

Yes, I would have assumed that an post would have had to at least contact me before taking me to court & very, very surprised that a person can be convicted/fined without notice.
I'll phone the court clerk tomorrow & my local TD to see what has happened but I'm still discusted at this. Actually, I'm very angry as I've never been in trouble in my life, until now  .

Thanks for the replies though & I feel this really should have stayed in the legal forum.


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## Bronte (21 Nov 2007)

*Re: Fined €160 & €75 costs for no TV licence but never got a summons?*

Gollum, could you telephone the An post people and explain that you have been waiting for your licence and that you never got notification, I'm sure that someone who is disabled will get some sympathy.  I would follow this up with a letter to them outlining exactly what happened, that you never got notice, in & out of hospital etc.  Make sure to register the letter, (the proof of postage route costs nothing) maybe the postman could help you if you can't go to the post office.  It's definitely a legal issue now.  Also get onto the Department to find out where your licences is.  With all state bodies it is better that everything is in writing.


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## bond-007 (21 Nov 2007)

*Re: Fined €160 & €75 costs for no TV licence but never got a summons?*

Agreed, this is a legal problem and should be moved back there.

As for the OP, appeal this now. Go to the circuit court office and lodge an appeal without delay. You will then get to thrash it all out from the beginging again and get a fair hearing. A decent judge will quash the conviction.


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## efm (21 Nov 2007)

*Re: Fined €160 & €75 costs for no TV licence but never got a summons?*



bond-007 said:


> Agreed, this is a legal problem and should be moved back there.
> 
> As for the OP, appeal this now. Go to the circuit court office and lodge an appeal without delay. You will then get to thrash it all out from the beginging again and get a fair hearing. A decent judge will quash the conviction.


 
Could the Circuit Court also award costs in a case like this?


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## ajapale (21 Nov 2007)

*Re: Fined €160 & €75 costs for no TV licence but never got a summons?*

The legal aspects of House Buying / Selling are dealt with in the HB/HS forum
The legal aspects of Motoring and Car ownership are dealt with in the Car/Motoring forum.
The legal aspects of debt and indebtness are dealt with in *Banking, Borrowing, Budgeting and Credit Cards* 			.
and the legal aspects of TV ownership (ie TV licence etc) are dealt with in the  TV/Audio/Visual forum.
The legal aspects of Employee Law are dealt with in the Jobs Careers forum.


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## bond-007 (21 Nov 2007)

*Re: Fined €160 & €75 costs for no TV licence but never got a summons?*

In a criminal appeal from the district court costs will not be awareded.


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## efm (21 Nov 2007)

*Re: Fined €160 & €75 costs for no TV licence but never got a summons?*



bond-007 said:


> In a criminal appeal from the district court costs will not be awareded.


 
Would the OP require a solicitor to properly appeal the case?  If so then the cost of the solicitor would more than likely outweigh the fee and costs fines already imposed.  Is it worth it?


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## bond-007 (21 Nov 2007)

*Re: Fined €160 & €75 costs for no TV licence but never got a summons?*

I personally would not bother with a solicitor for such an appeal. 

It would be the principle of the matter. The OP now has a criminal record and this could cause him problems with visas etc in the future. I would also assume that the OP wants to clear his good name.

Also there is a reasonable chance that the state will not contest the appeal.
If the OP hires legal consul to make the appeal and he wins, he cannot get the costs back from the state.


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## gradgrind (22 Nov 2007)

*Re: Fined €160 & €75 costs for no TV licence but never got a summons?*



> The OP now has a criminal record



Is this really a criminal conviction? I'd have thought it's a civil thing with no implications beyond the fine.


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## bond-007 (22 Nov 2007)

*Re: Fined €160 & €75 costs for no TV licence but never got a summons?*

Nope. It is a criminal conviction.


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## gar32 (23 Nov 2007)

*maybe they have NTL/Chorus info??*

You could be paying for NTL or have a dish on your wall meaning you have equipment to recive TV signal. This means you don't even need a TV to have a TV licence. Just the equipment to recive it. A video recorder or TV ariel would do. maybe they just looked in the window. Any how its a tax that unless you don't have any of these TV related items you should have a licence. Soon a computer will be added as online you can watch TV station. Taxes & death only to sure things in life.


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## gollum (18 Dec 2007)

*Re: Fined €160 & €75 costs for no TV licence but never got a summons?*

Just to keep you guys updated (& many thanks for the replies/advice):

I contacted the district court clerk who recommended a local solicitor. He offered to lodge an appeal pro bono, i.e. free. The appeal was lodged & I'm now awaiting a date for the hearing. I had to sign the appeal form which is signed by the district court judge & now, apparently, I'm on bail  . There's a €100 bond & I've to be of good behaviour! I'm told the appeal will he heard early(ish) next year - February/March.

I had also contacted the disability section of social welfare who said although I've been entitled to a free TV licence for the last number of years, I had never actually been issued one. That situation has been corrected now, I received my free TV licence a few days after speaking to them/lodging the appeal.

Now, a funny thing happened a few days after posting this thread. I received a letter from An Post prosecutions section saying that I would be prosecuted if I did not provide evidence of having a TV licence! Ironic that this arrived shortly AFTER receiving my fine/conviction. I've forwarded this to the solicitor who says it looks like an almighty cock-up by an post. He says that they probably won't even contest the appeal given I received NO notification/summons.

I still think this is in the wrong place - it's purely a legal problem now & could just as well have been about any other offence etc.

Can I ask if anyone knows how this conviction may effect travelling? I'm not sure yet but I might possibly be able to travel to the US some time next year - a relation is going with his family & he just might ask me to come. I've never been but always wanted to go & he knows! Fingers crossed he'll offer but would I have problems with US emigration with a recent conviction etc.? It's a minor thing & a mistake but with the US authorities paranoia over terrorism etc., would this prevent me being able to travel?

Input appreciated.


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## MrMan (18 Dec 2007)

I would doubt that you would have any problems travelling because of this and it sounds like everything is going to be quashed. On a note to others though, AFAIK when you get the card from the TV licence man saying he called it generally states in the not so small print that a licence isn't on record at this premises and you have 5 days in order to get one. I really don't think people can have a grumble if they end up with a fine because they expect further notice to get one. Everyone knows that we must have a licence, but why do people get so in a heap when they end up in trouble for not following the law. I realise that this case is slightly different. I know I'm going to get a backlash for this, but how would your disability make it difficult to get a licence or go to the courthouse, but allow you to travel to the states. I realise I could be speaking out of turn but I just found that odd.


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## ClubMan (18 Dec 2007)

*Re: Fined €160 & €75 costs for no TV licence but never got a summons?*



MrMan said:


> but how would your disability make it difficult to get a licence


You can get a license by phone (payment by credit/debit card) or post (payment by cheque).


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## Sylvester3 (18 Dec 2007)

*Re: Fined €160 & €75 costs for no TV licence but never got a summons?*

My wife and I recieved a warning shortly after moving house at the start of the year, even though we i) had bought a licence when we moved from the UK four months previously, ii)  had gone to the PO to have the address on it changed. The warning notice also stated that the inspector saw that we had receiving equipment on our roof, which we in fact did not - we got Sky in a couple of months later. Any way rather than sit on the matter knowing that we were in the right we both phoned An Post and sent letters showing proof of our licence and chased them until they confirmed that we were in fact covered. 

I think you have to stay on top of these things right from the beginning rather than waiting for trouble to find you, even if you have the right of it. Once the legal wheel starts rolling you are liable to find yourself crushed under it no matter what you do!


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## gollum (18 Dec 2007)

*Re: Fined €160 & €75 costs for no TV licence but never got a summons?*



MrMan said:


> but how would your disability make it difficult to get a licence or go to the courthouse, but allow you to travel to the states.


 
I didn't go to the courthouse because I never received any notification of a case - no postcard through the door, no letter from an post, no summons, nothing. Just a letter from the district court a few weeks after informing me of my conviction.
Up until my accident/disability I did have a TV licence, paid for it every year. Some time after getting out of hospital & sorting out social welfare, medical card etc., I received a letter stating what benefits I was entitled to - disability benefit, fuel allowance, phone allowance, free travel & free TV licence etc. I received everything except a TV licence & was told that having a free licence doesn't mean being posted an actual licence but being registered "on the system". After contacting the relevent departmant recently, they posted me an A4 sheet stating I have a free TV licence. In fairness, it does include a TV licence number, something I didn't have.

If I'd known there was a problem I would have sorted it well before it went anywhere near a court - it didn't cost me a penny after all. 

Just to add a little more information - I got the registered number of the summons sent to me (never received) & an post have confirmed it was never delivered. It was, in fact, returned to the sender (state solicitor's office) where it was signed for. I have all this in writing from an post & have the person's signature who signed for it. So they still went ahead with the prosecution despite knowing a summons hadn't been delivered/received by me. 
So, would the person giving evidence against me - either the TV licence inspector or state solicitor have given evidence of the summons being delivered? Was false evidence given in court?
Obviously I'm not familiar with court proceedings having never seen the inside of one but I'm curious as to what actually would have happened/been said? 
On the traveling to the US front, I'm not totally paralysed but have a serious disability & very impaired mobility. I can go out (hospital twice a month, at least) but it's difficult at the best of times. I'd jump at the chance (pardon the pun  ) to go to the US & to be honest, the only way I could go is with the help of friends/relations. If I'm asked, I WILL be a burden which I'm not most happy about. Imagine if I turn up at an airport & am refused permission to fly/enter the US because of this almighty cock up by both an post & the state solicitor's office!

ps. I hope you don't get grief about the US comment - I understand what you're saying & agree. There are loads of people who don't pay for a TV licence but drive big 4x4s & have plasma TVs. Sadly, I know a few  .

So, can anyone shed some light on what was offered as evidence about a summons being delivered etc.?

Thanks again for the replies  .


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## Luckycharm (18 Dec 2007)

*Re: Fined €160 & €75 costs for no TV licence but never got a summons?*

When he called to my house- got them to send me a DD mandate and pay it monthly so you hardly notice it - it is around €13 a month


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## MrMan (18 Dec 2007)

> On the traveling to the US front, I'm not totally paralysed but have a serious disability & very impaired mobility. I can go out (hospital twice a month, at least) but it's difficult at the best of times. I'd jump at the chance (pardon the pun  ) to go to the US & to be honest, the only way I could go is with the help of friends/relations. If I'm asked, I WILL be a burden which I'm not most happy about.



Well I hope you get your trip and enjoy it, and from all of your details now I can't see how anything is going to come of this other than an apology from the authorities.


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## bond-007 (18 Dec 2007)

*Re: Fined €160 & €75 costs for no TV licence but never got a summons?*



> So, can anyone shed some light on what was offered as evidence about a summons being delivered etc.?


 When an accused fails to appear, the judge checks to see if it has been s


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## TreeTiger (18 Dec 2007)

*Re: Fined €160 & €75 costs for no TV licence but never got a summons?*



MrMan said:


> II know I'm going to get a backlash for this, but how would your disability make it difficult to get a licence or go to the courthouse, but allow you to travel to the states. I realise I could be speaking out of turn but I just found that odd.


I thought that statement was bang out of order.  How can you compare a person with a disability having to make a trip to court because of someone else's error with going on a trip of a lifetime with family?

Gollum, I hope all works out well for you.


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