# Civil Service is nice soft easy job, no pressure compared to the private sector



## rabbit (12 Nov 2006)

Bobby1 said:


> I am currently working in an Irish Bank and its a grand job. Its in the Head Office, flexi times, interesting work, only drawback is the pay is really bad and its like trying to get blood from a stone getting payrise!
> 
> I have since been offered a job in the Civil Service and dont know what to do.
> 
> Is there anyone who works/worked in the Civil Service that can advise me on what its like?


Civil service is nice soft easy job, generally no pressure compared to the private sector which employs the public sector via their taxes.   Its also generally much better paid than the private sector, more secure, better perks ( eg  pension, free car parking space , longer coffee breaks etc ).  Its not supposed to be like this, but in Ireland it is.   Ask Eddie Hobbs.   He had a bit to say about civil servants there recently.


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## tallpaul (12 Nov 2006)

*Re: Civil Service V Bank Job?*



rabbit said:


> Civil service is nice soft easy job, generally no pressure compared to the private sector which employs the public sector via their taxes. Its also generally much better paid than the private sector, more secure, better perks ( eg pension, free car parking space , longer coffee breaks etc ). Its not supposed to be like this, but in Ireland it is. Ask Eddie Hobbs. He had a bit to say about civil servants there recently.


 
Ehmm. I would LOVE for you to provide some empirical evidence for this. It's people like you Rabbit who keep this rubbish stereotype alive.

Pay is broadly in line with the private sector and may be behind in some respects in the more junior grades (e.g. Clerical Officer). Security is one of the principles of the Public Service and generally it is people in the private sector who jealously whinge about this. If you want tenure, why don't you try out for the Civil Service?

As for longer coffee breaks, I won't dignify that with an answer. What is your definition of longer? Any evidence to back this up. In addition I think all private sector companies, where they have car parks, do not charge their employees to use them; much the same as the Civil Service.

Perhaps Rabbit you might do a little research before you promote the old 'Civil Servants doing nothing routine'...

Anyway to answer the OP, personally I think the culture in the Civil Service and the large banks is very similar with regards to conditions of service, pay (generally), leave, sick leave arrangments, promotions etc. I have several friends who work in banks and the culture seems very similar.

It would be worth your while thinking what you want to get out of your career. Is money your sole motivator at present as to why you want a change? Have you tried applying for jobs in other financial institutions where you can apply your skills?


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## rabbit (12 Nov 2006)

*Re: Civil Service V Bank Job?*



tallpaul said:


> Perhaps Rabbit you might do a little research before you promote the old 'Civil Servants doing nothing routine'...


I never said civil servants do nothing.  I have friends in the civil service who say they have done their knitting and read papers and books there, along with a bit of work on occassion.  

As regards their pay / pensions etc, statistics show how well paid they are.    Did not not watch Eddie Hobbs talk about them, far more eloquently than me, on his 30 things programme a few weeks ago ? 

I have many relations, friends and acquantances who work in both the public and private sectors eg manufacturing industry.


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## messyleo (12 Nov 2006)

*Re: Civil Service V Bank Job?*

well said tallpaul... can't believe the attitude of rabbit. i know ppl working in the private sector who can sit and read the times all day, whereas i,  along with my colleagues in the civil service frequently work well in excess of our standard hours but don't get time in lieu or overtime. all my friends in the private sector (accouting, pr, estate agents, banks and tax) get paid or else get ime in lieu when they work over 37.5 hous a week. I certainly agree that there may well be some quieter positions in the cs, however this is not exclusive to the public sector. 

As regards pay, I'm not on the lowest rung, but my friends in the private sector all get paid more than I do, and generally get a couple of grand of a bonus per annum too. Throw in xmas parties that are paid for by managment, social outings/occassions etc. and it also compounds things. There's a waiting list for parking in the dept where i work, and i know people who have been on the list for 7 or 8 years and still no signs of a spot!


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## rabbit (12 Nov 2006)

*Re: Civil Service V Bank Job?*



gravitygirl said:


> As regards pay, I'm not on the lowest rung, but my friends in the private sector all get paid more than I do


I am talking statistically ; the relatively small number of your " friends in the private sector who all get paid more than you do " does not prove anything. There are also lots of people in the country on close to the minimum wage, especially outside the big cities.   Many people do not enjoy long coffee breaks, plenty of sick days off, little pressure, 100% job security, pension, off at 5 pm etc.


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## messyleo (12 Nov 2006)

*Re: Civil Service V Bank Job?*

off at 5pm??!! I wish! I generally work about 8am till 6pm or later with 30-40 mins for lunch and no coffee breaks. i've taken one sick day in the past twelve months. little pressure?? (how about you try taking the heat and defending your country's decisions in front of experts from all the other member states in brussels?). i'll give you the job security one alright. 

in terms of salaries, i agree that cs jobs may be well paid relative to other jobs in some parts of the country. i can only compare on a dublin basis, in which case, similar specced jobs get more money in the private sector from my experience. the cs pay is the same country-wide, private sector varies in terms of location; that's the killer difference, so in a dublin context the pay tends to be below the average for similar positions in the private sector. 

like i said you might get lucky and get a quiet enough post (as could just as easily happen in a private sec job), or it could be the exact opposite;  that's the nature of the cs, it's very broad.


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## Murt10 (12 Nov 2006)

*Re: Civil Service V Bank Job?*



rabbit said:


> I have friends in the civil service who say they have done their knitting and read papers and books there, along with a bit of work on occassion.


Are you gullible enough to belive everything you hear? Sounds to me like your friends are pulling your chain. I'm not aware of anyone knitting in the present civil service or outside of it for that matter. 

Ask your friends to show you proof of their knitting or better still get them to knit something for you.

As for a good pension scheme, whats wrong with that? Aren't the BOI about to take industrial action because their pension scheme, which is also exellent, is about to be cut back for new recruits?  

Murt


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## tallpaul (12 Nov 2006)

*Re: Civil Service V Bank Job?*



rabbit said:


> Did not not watch Eddie Hobbs talk about them, far more eloquently than me, on his 30 things programme a few weeks ago ?


If Eddie Hobbs gives out so much about the Civil Service, why is he on several Govt. panels which are established by the Civil Service?

You just keep spouting the stereotype Rabbit, you might even believe your own mantra someday...


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## rabbit (13 Nov 2006)

*Re: Civil Service V Bank Job?*



tallpaul said:


> If Eddie Hobbs gives out so much about the Civil Service, why is he on several Govt. panels which are established by the Civil Service?


Answer : easy money / career decision to help his other sidelines.    As regards " give out about ", do not shoot the messenger.   He just told you the statistics.


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## rabbit (13 Nov 2006)

*Re: Civil Service V Bank Job?*



Murt10 said:


> Are you gullible enough to belive everything you hear?


No.   Nor do I believe everything I would read from posters on the internet who may have a vested interest, and who I do not know.


Murt10 said:


> Ask your friends to show you proof of their knitting or better still get them to knit something for you.


I have seen knitting they have done there, thank you.   I personally do not like knitted garments so would not wear something they knit, even if they would.   However, I know them pretty well, and know when they tell the truth.


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## rabbit (13 Nov 2006)

*Re: Civil Service V Bank Job?*



gravitygirl said:


> off at 5pm??!! I wish! I generally work about 8am till 6pm or later with 30-40 mins for lunch and no coffee breaks.


I never met a civil servant who worked like that.    Pull the other one if you expect me to believe the average civil servant works like that.



gravitygirl said:


> i'll give you the job security one alright.


 Good.   Not too many civil servants have lost their jobs over *anything.*
Contrast that with the manufacturing industry for example. 



gravitygirl said:


> in terms of salaries, i agree that cs jobs may be well paid relative to other jobs in some parts of the country.


plus the perks like pensions....


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## michaelm (13 Nov 2006)

*Re: Civil Service V Bank Job?*

I'd have to lean towards rabbit's argument on this.  Stereotypes are often statistically based.  There are plenty of handy jobs in the civil/public service with reasonable pay, job security, better holidays and breaks.  There's also a lot of incompetence and inefficiency but I guess you can find that in any sprawling organisations.  I'd reckon in general that if you don't work for your self you should get into the civil/public service.


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## gianni (13 Nov 2006)

*Re: Civil Service V Bank Job?*



> Stereotypes are often statistically based.


 

Stereotypes are ideas held by some individuals about members of particular groups, based solely on membership in that group. They are often used in a negative or prejudicial sense and are frequently used to justify certain discriminatory behaviors. 

Stereotype production is based on:

Simplification
Exaggeration or distortion
Generalization
Presentation of cultural attributes as being 'natural'.
Stereotypes are seen by many as undesirable beliefs imposed to justify the acts of discrimination and oppression. It is thought, education and/or familiarization can change these misbeliefs.


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## CMCR (13 Nov 2006)

*Re: Civil Service V Bank Job?*



rabbit said:


> I never said civil servants do nothing. I have friends in the civil service who say they have done their knitting and read papers and books there, along with a bit of work on occassion.


 
Just out of interest, what *government department* do these 'friends' work in?  Is it the Department of Pluto?


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## messyleo (13 Nov 2006)

*Re: Civil Service V Bank Job?*

obviously rabbit thinks that it's cute little furry animals or magic fairies who appear in the middle of the night, rather than hard working civil servants, who produce things like the Budget, Trade agreements, write a wealth of important publications etc. every year. I mean obviously there's absolutely nothing of importance produced by the C.S, I mean who even cares about the Estimates out on Wednesday, eh? Trivial!


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## gearoidmm (13 Nov 2006)

Not to mention the health service which, for all that people give out about it, the hours are horrible.


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## Glenbhoy (13 Nov 2006)

rabbit said:


> Its not supposed to be like this, but in Ireland it is. Ask Eddie Hobbs. He had a bit to say about civil servants there recently.


Firstly, it's not just in Ireland, you want to see them in Italy, and I imagine that the rest of continental europe is no better.
Secondly, having spent time in the public sector I gotta admit that Rabbit has a point and whilst not everyone is the same, i came across a lot more people whose workstreams were extremely underpopulated   than one would normally do in the private sector.


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## rabbit (13 Nov 2006)

*Re: Civil Service V Bank Job?*



gravitygirl said:


> obviously rabbit thinks that it's cute little furry animals or magic fairies who appear in the middle of the night, rather than hard working civil servants, who produce things like the Budget, Trade agreements, write a wealth of important publications etc. every year. I mean obviously there's absolutely nothing of importance produced by the C.S, I mean who even cares about the Estimates out on Wednesday, eh? Trivial!


I never said or implied " there's absolutely nothing of importance produced by the C.S ". Far from it. The tens of thousands of people do a bit of work in between the coffee breaks, chatting etc etc.   I know a few people who worked in the C.S.in Dublin, and married someone from somewhere else in the country, and who ended up getting a job in private industry "down the country".   What a culture shock they got.


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## rabbit (13 Nov 2006)

gearoidmm said:


> Not to mention the health service which, for all that people give out about it, the hours are horrible.


 
I know some nurses who do work hard, are efficient and pleasant.   In fact I would say most nurses have a difficult job and work hard.     I do not tar everyone with the same brush. Yes, the hours in the health service are horrible, for those on shift work.   Their pay does not compare favourably with the ESB , for example.  However, Irish health workers are not the only people in the world on shift work.....and they do get plenty of days off.


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## june (14 Nov 2006)

what would be the quality of this knitting that is done in the civil service?
would it be a simple plain and purl scarf created in furtive moments under the desk or would it be a right complicated aran stitch geansai?
 maybe diamonds, cables etc the kind of stitches that require the knitters FULL attention..
 knitting is well known as a relaxing pastime and may even be contributing to a reduction in the stress levels of these workers thus actually increasing their well being, output and overall efficiency.  you can't surf the net while you're knitting!


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## Winnie (14 Nov 2006)

Ok so I think Rabbit may be trying to stir things............but he does have a point.
Im sure there are people in the CS who do work hard............but there are plenty who have very handy numbers.  I have had quite a lot of dealings with Public sector & spend quite a bit of time on site & in the majority of cases that I have come across 1 efficient person could do the job of 2 civil servants. Now I didnt have a problem with this when civil servants were being paid less but I look now & cs are getting paid pretty much equivalent (if not more in some cases) than private sector people for way less work.  
& yes the 3/4 hr tea breaks do exist (sometimes they are even longer!).  I remember particularly one place where people literally put their pens down mid sentance when the clock turned 5!
That said, this does seem to be more apparant in the lower grades, many of the more senior cs do seem to work harder but still not on an equivalent leve to private sector.

Im not even saying that it is the individuals fault.  i have a friend who went in at clerical officer grade & worked hard, went for promotion & found that promotion was not based on merit but on how long you had been there.............after a while she just had not motivation to work hard as it made no difference.  & that is why cs is so inefficient - people are not promoted on merit but on length of service/who you know.


But that is just my experience!


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## Dipole (14 Nov 2006)

My dealings with the local county council's housing department regarding anti-social and other problems in our locality have left me with a bad impression of public sector workers.
In-efficient, rude, mean spirited, disingenuous and cowardly are all words that spring to mind when I think of this department.
A jelly fish would have more spine than the people in that department but I got the impression that on account of the culture of that particular department these were requisite qualities for those employed there if they wanted to get along.


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## edo (14 Nov 2006)

Winnie said:


> Ok so I think Rabbit may be trying to stir things............but he does have a point.
> Im sure there are people in the CS who do work hard............but there are plenty who have very handy numbers. I have had quite a lot of dealings with Public sector & spend quite a bit of time on site & in the majority of cases that I have come across 1 efficient person could do the job of 2 civil servants. Now I didnt have a problem with this when civil servants were being paid less but I look now & cs are getting paid pretty much equivalent (if not more in some cases) than private sector people for way less work.
> & yes the 3/4 hr tea breaks do exist (sometimes they are even longer!). I remember particularly one place where people literally put their pens down mid sentance when the clock turned 5!
> That said, this does seem to be more apparant in the lower grades, many of the more senior cs do seem to work harder but still not on an equivalent leve to private sector.
> ...



I think the main beef most private sector people have with the public sector is not with the pay and conditions , good luck to them , but the fact we appear to be getting very poor value for money for the very very considerable increases in expenditure that has gone in that direction in the previous 10 years.

I don't doubt that there are many civil servants who work extremely hard , but have issues as to where that work is directed and how many passengers are being carried along for the ride. To paraphrase Dr Michael Smurfit - unless properly managed and directed you can have many "busy fools" in large organisations - outwardly applying lots of perspiration but in large picture accomplishing Sweet Fanny Adams of any worth. 

I dont think the Irish Managment Disease P.P.P (Piss Poor Planning) is limited exclusively to the public service - from my own experience unless you plan properly , both strategically , tactically and operationally, you can end up expending far more resources and man hours than you should really - I find this happening ,even in my own organisation ,by individuals , particularly, senior managment who have failed to plan properly for all scenarios and try and cover this up by using their authority to throw everything including the kitchen sink at the issue. But it would appear that the rigid structure of the Public services would appear to encourage this kind of complacency and apathy and overall sterility as in the end, unlike the private sector ,nobody has to take responsibility by carrying the can and ultimately the sack. the evidence is there for all to see.

The civil service requirements for hiring their executive class are quite high academically speaking and a lot of bright people join every year - but the fact that merit and ability appear to have little to do with promotion in many, but not all sectors has stunted the effectiveness of the sector and once you're permanent, with little or no chance of promotion except by doing time - its little wonder that sector functions as effectively as it does

to quote the British Comedy - Yes Minister

Minister Hacker in conversation with his Private secretary Bernard regarding how so much public service work seems to involve going round and round in circles without coming up with any definite conclusions

Hacker: "Doesn't the futility of it all depress you Bernard"

Bernard: "Not Really Minister - Im a civil servant"

ok - breakfast break over - I've been in since 7 - back to the grindstone

Later


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## ajapale (14 Nov 2006)

The original discussion concerned Civil Servants but it seems to have broadened out to include the Public Service (Guards, Nurses, Army, Prison Officers, Local Authority Employees etc). It could be broadened out to include the entire Public Sector (ESB, Bord Gas etc).

I suggest that keeping the discussion to the Civil Service proper would make for a more focused debate. But if posters want to widen it out to include the PService or the PSector then that ok too.

aj


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## rabbit (14 Nov 2006)

Yorky said:


> I also know of teachers who take the absolute maximum annual sick leave before they are financially penalised every year due to "stress". If they are so stressed how are they able to return to work just as the sick pay is running out?
> 
> I also know of a civil servant who takes legitimate parental leave and tops this up with the maximum annual sick leave in order to be off work during the school holidays.


 
I think we all know of civil servants / teachers like that, be they friends, relations, acquantances, neighbours etc. I know of one teacher involved in sport a lot who takes "dodgy" sick days off sometimes but is able to pursue his sport. I know of another who runs a lucrative little cash summer business but whose teaching sometimes suffers as a result. Another person I know who is a college lecturer brags about spending a lot of time in college photocopying and attending to his nixer business.


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## ludermor (15 Nov 2006)

left blank


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## nelly (15 Nov 2006)

my friend is a teacher and she enjoys the perks but feels there should be some way to get the bad teachers out. By bad teachers i mean one example she illustrated was a woman who used the strss/sick leave to her advantage for years as another poster outlined and basically took a year out recently to work in private sector. She came back more depressed than ever - she really loved the work, motivation, team work, dealing wiht people, craic (which in her opinion was different to a staff room - I can't comment) but "had " to come back as she couldn't leave the permanent and pensionable job after her. 
She is missing days here and there still but reckons sure she would be doing a sub out of supervision if she came in when she was entitled to her days.

So a) what a waste of a sub wages covering a woman sho is not sick just refuses to go to work unless she really has to using up all sick and leave days available to her b)what a waste of human life is she is living a life she hates for a good pension and summer holidays c)why would anyone want to be a proactive principle of a school where you could have 2 or 3 of these people "working" beside you?

As i see it there is a lot of truth in some of the threads.


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## homeowner (16 Nov 2006)

From what I know of certain departments in the civil service (I can name them but I dont think  I am allowed to here)....they do have regular tea breaks at 10am and again around 4pm and these breaks are supposed to be 15 mins but can stretch to 30 mins depending on how lenient you manager is. I know of people who used to work and who still do working in these departments who come into work around 9:30/9:45 and then go straight to their coffee break, do about 2 hours work and then take their lunch break, another few hours work then coffee break then home around 5pm.  This is the norm for them. Granted they get paid less than their equivalent in the private sector but they dont work anywhere near the hours or produce anywhere near the same amount of work.


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## TarfHead (16 Nov 2006)

homeowner said:


> From what I know of certain departments in the civil service (I can name them but I dont think I am allowed to here)....they do have regular tea breaks at 10am and again around 4pm and these breaks are supposed to be 15 mins but can stretch to 30 mins depending on how lenient you manager is.


 
Sounds like it is around here -a large department in a prominent private sector company. Not everyone though. And some of those that do may have to have a cigarette break before they return to their desk  !


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## Dipole (17 Nov 2006)

There has been an ongoing problem with theft from the Finglas Leisure centre for well over a year.  The local council couldn't be bothered to resolve it.  Just yesterday lockers were rifled again for the umpteenth time.  I mailed the person who is "looking after" the issue in the council and here is the response I got

"
Thanks for that information.  As you are aware there are disclaimer signs erected advising patrons that Dublin City Council will not be responsible for articles lost or stolen and also advising patrons that there are lockers provided in the reception area to store valuables.  At this stage any claims received in relation to this matter will be repudiated.

Regards,

XXXX"

So there you have it, it's the public's fault that thieves prey on them in their civic amenities and that staff are glued to the spot behind the reception desk rather than checking the leisure centre for ne'er do wells.
Rather than make an attempt to catch the thieves it is easier to put up signs and pity the poor bugger that looses his shoes, watch, wallet, phone or keys.  
The garda station is just down the road BTW.

The thing that annoys me most about the public sector is that it attracts a lot of people who just want a steady untaxing job, not a vocation.  These are precisely the type of people who shouldn't be let anywhere near the public.​


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## zephyro (17 Nov 2006)

TarfHead said:


> Sounds like it is around here -a large department in a prominent private sector company. Not everyone though. And some of those that do may have to have a cigarette break before they return to their desk  !



The crucial point though is that the cost of this is borne by the company shareholders who have the option of selling, rather than by taxpayers.


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## muffin1973 (17 Nov 2006)

I used to work in the public sector about 7-8 years ago. Stuck it for 6 months. Nice people but had nothing to do - very overstaffed. As far as I could see, they had meetings about meetings and set up so many committees you'd wonder what they were for and what they actually accomplished. The tea break I found hilarious as well - there was a tea lady who came around with her trollery and everyone had to stop working and have their cup of tea and a nice biscuit. Lovely. The mentality was hilarious though - it was all about the perks and the job was secondary.

Having said that my sister works in the public sector and has all her working life and works very hard - still she does have a ridiculous amount of holiday leave entitlements (nearing 40 days at the last count), whereas I have the legal minimum - not very fair but who said life was fair?

M


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## Gordanus (17 Nov 2006)

ludermor said:


> I think we have all seen the teacher in Rossport who is protesting against Shell. How is allowed to stay in her job is beyond me, with the amount of time off she has and her actions against the guards


Isn't she retired?


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## rabbit (17 Nov 2006)

Gordanus said:


> Isn't she retired?


 
No, there was one on the radio who got caught out, as she was supposed to be sick / on sick leave , but was well enough to be at the protest demo.


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## ramble (17 Nov 2006)

Wait til decentralisation, then the civil servants will spend all their time travelling.
Public sector workers probably suffer a lot from doing jobs that aren't "productive" in the private sector sense.  A public health nurse dealing with a lonely old person can't really say, "this conversation isn't cost effective I'm off".


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## rabbit (17 Nov 2006)

ramble said:


> Wait til decentralisation, then the civil servants will spend all their time travelling.".


 
You must be joking.  Many already spend the Sunday evenings stuck in traffic coming back from the country,  rush hours each day stiuck in traffic, and then Friday evening going back down the country. 




ramble said:


> Public sector workers probably suffer a lot from doing jobs that aren't "productive" in the private sector sense. A public health nurse dealing with a lonely old person can't really say, "this conversation isn't cost effective I'm off".


 
Most "Public sector workers" are not public health nurses.   I know one nurse who comes to help an elderly man ( who unfortunately is semi paralysed ) , and she spends less time than she is paid to, and the work she does there is of poor quality.   She is better than nothing, but not great value to the taxpayer or to the mans relations compared to how the situation would be if she done her job properly.


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## Amygdala (18 Nov 2006)

How come so many know of lazy public sector workers and only complain about them here instead of to the relevant bodies?


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## Dipole (18 Nov 2006)

Amygdala said:


> How come so many know of lazy public sector workers and only complain about them here instead of to the relevant bodies?



Well in my case it goes to the top.

My local councillor describes the senior officer I'm trying to get to address anti-social issues as worse than useless.
With regard to the theft from Finglas Leisure centre my communication has been escalated but it was escalated at the start of the year and the response at the time was to erect signs which supposedly absolve the council of all blame.
These organisations are sick from top to toe.


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## RainyDay (19 Nov 2006)

Having moved to a public sector role last year after 20+ years in the private sector, I think I can speak more knowledgeably on this topic than much of the pub talk that appears on this thread.

First, I think it is outrageous and cowardly for allegations to be made about an identifiable individual (the Rossport schoolteacher) on an internet bulletin board by anonymous users who have no specific knowledge of her personal situation. If you want to make allegations about a named individual, come out from behind your username and post details of your identity, so that the teacher can sue you instead of Brendan for libel. If you have a serious complaint about any teacher, contact the chairperson of the board of management or the Sec/Gen of the Dept of Education. Otherwise, I would strongly recommend that you withdraw your allegations.

In relation to the Finglas Leisure Centre issue, I wouldn't assume that nothing is being done. The formal response by email states the 'party line', just like many formal responses from private sector businesses like banks or insurance companies would do. It may well be (though I have no specific knowledge of this issue) that efforts are ongoing to resolve the issue.

In relation to claims of abuse of sick leave, let's not forgot that it takes much more than a phone call to arrange long-term sick leave. For a start, any sick leave of more than 3 days requires a doctor's cert. Extended sick leave would require assessment by the employer's doctor. If anyone has specific knowledge of sick leave abuse, they should notify the employer in question.

On the broader issue, my overwhelming view on moving from private sector to public sector is that things aren't really all that different. Most people work hard and care about their work. There are a few slackers on both sides of the fence of course. People get frustrated by the straitjackets of legislation and procedures in the public sector, just as people got frustrated by corporate bureaucracy in the private sector.

I took about an approx 30% cut in salary in moving to the public sector role, though I know my index-linked DB pension scheme probably makes up for this loss in the longer term. The biggest difference is time-off. I'm probably spending about 30% less hours at work, with very few late evenings and no weekends in work. [However, at more senior levels, the demands are greater. I do get emails from Director-level timestamped at 8pm or 9pm]. I get to take my morning tea break about 2 mornings per week - the rest of the time I'm just too busy. I get 30 days leave per annum, and up to 1.5 days per month flexi leave, which is a huge increase compared to my last job. Just like in the private sector, I'm under constant pressure to deliver more service with fewer resources.

They really aren't two different worlds. I've seen both sides first-hand.


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## Dipole (19 Nov 2006)

RainyDay said:


> In relation to the Finglas Leisure Centre issue, I wouldn't assume that nothing is being done. The formal response by email states the 'party line', just like many formal responses from private sector businesses like banks or insurance companies would do. It may well be (though I have no specific knowledge of this issue) that efforts are ongoing to resolve the issue.



Rainyday, you are really giving them too much credit.  The only reason the signs were erected was because I was tormenting them to do something and I had expected something better than signs.  The first signs they put up which were in place for a few months were photo-copied and afixed with blu-tack.
Involvement of a local councillor doesn't appear to help much either.


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## bearishbull (20 Nov 2006)

I'd love to see someone in media do an in depth piece on the pay and conditions in the public sector. I feel generally they are overpaid and should actually get less than private sector as security of tenure,generous pension and flexibility is worth a lot per annum. Look at prison guards for instance, they are glorified security guards but earn on average 80k per annum when their organised overtime is taken into account. And the powerfull union backed workers in likes of ESB get well above market rates for the work they do. A lot of the office type jobs in civil service may not pay much more than private sector but theres more perks and room for lazy/incompetent people to hide.


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## car (20 Nov 2006)

I went the other way to Rainy, I was in the service for 6 years and spent time in 3 different departments before going private.   Ive remained in contact with several people.  Most who do the same work as I (in I.T) earn more money then me and are surprised when they find this out (as am I..grrr).  Most work less hours then me.  Some work more.

I seen it all in the service, Ive seen people knitting, Ive seen people routinely take 45 minutes break in the morning and afternoon.   Ive seen people asleep at their desks,  in one department there was a story that you could get the days news off a particular womans forehead as she fell asleep every morning for an hour on a fresh copy of the indo.   Conversely,  in another department I was once given out to, while on lunch, for reading a paper at my desk as it was interfering with a co-workers concentration while I turned the pages.  swings and roundabouts.

Some of the best and talented people Ive worked with were in the service, but also some of the worst and laziest and its these that give the bad name.  

didnt know about the finglas leisure centre problem, thanks for the heads up.  I will say I frequent there quite often and  Ive always found the staff very courteous.


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## RainyDay (20 Nov 2006)

bearishbull said:


> Look at prison guards for instance, they are glorified security guards but earn on average 80k per annum when their organised overtime is taken into account.



If it is such an attractive option, one might wonder why they aren't queueing all the way down the street for application forms every time they recruit?


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## bearishbull (20 Nov 2006)

RainyDay said:


> If it is such an attractive option, one might wonder why they aren't queueing all the way down the street for application forms every time they recruit?


They do,  massive numbers apply for prisons, gardai, fire brigade etc. The governement don't seem to employ enough and there always seems to be huge overtime available according to officers i know personally. The strong unions keep the wages high.


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## RainyDay (20 Nov 2006)

bearishbull said:


> They do,  massive numbers apply for prisons, gardai, fire brigade etc.


And your source for this information is?


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## ashambles (21 Nov 2006)

*http://www.onrec.com/content2/news.asp?ID=5950
11,000 applications for Garda recruitment*

*21/12/2004 10:09:00* 
 Almost 11,000 people have applied for just 2,000 Garda posts, it emerged today.

The Public Appointments Service was inundated with applications from potential recruits before last week’s deadline.

That'd be a pretty long queue - about 3 miles.


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## Winnie (21 Nov 2006)

bearishbull said:


> They do, massive numbers apply for prisons, gardai, fire brigade etc. The governement don't seem to employ enough and there always seems to be huge overtime available according to officers i know personally. The strong unions keep the wages high.


 
Would you want to work in a prison - I know that I wouldnt.  I don't know of any prison guard who grew up dreaming of being a prision guard - they do it for the money.  If there was no money in it you wouldnt get the people to work there - that is why the money is so high.  Along with I suppose 'danger money' - going into work everyday with the possibility of being attacked.  
The prison officers who are getting €80k pa are working mental overtime & basically have no life outside of work.  
I think this is a diff situation to general civil service discussion - where I would agree with most of the previous comments.


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## rabbit (21 Nov 2006)

Winnie said:


> they do it for the money.


 
We all work for money.    They also work for their pensions, sick pay, holiday pay etc.


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## Ancutza (21 Nov 2006)

One of our close family friends is a prison officer close to retirement.  A more wonderful, gentle and courteous gentleman you couldn't hope to meet.  To me he is pure a wonder.  How could anyone work in a place like the 'joy and be so well adjusted?  By his own admission he is set upon at least once a forthnight but puts it down to just being 'part of the job'.

This individual sees his work as vocation, and is genuinely interested in the inmates welfare, although I'm sure he never conciously set out to be where he is today.

In my opinion I wouldn't do his job for twice the money! His is definitely no soft option!


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## RainyDay (21 Nov 2006)

ashambles said:


> *http://www.onrec.com/content2/news.asp?ID=5950
> 11,000 applications for Garda recruitment*
> 
> *21/12/2004 10:09:00*
> ...



And what about the prison officers?


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## rabbit (21 Nov 2006)

Ancutza said:


> By his own admission he is set upon at least once a forthnight but puts it down to just being 'part of the job'.


 
By " set upon " do you mean physically beaten / attacked ?  Once every two weeks ?   Well, whatever he is in to I suppose.

If this happened every prison officer as well as the army deafness claims ( as in the army )  the taxpayer would be faced with "set upon" claims from the prison sector !


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## Sunny (22 Nov 2006)

This thread started out about the civil service but seems to have spread on the public sector in general. To be honest, as a private sector employee, I would never claim that nurses, guards, prision officers etc are being overpaid. They deserve good pay.  I agree that there might be issues with overtime and the costs associated with it especially in the guards and prision service and that needs to be addressed

My one major problem with the civil service versus the private sector is the whole concept of benchmarking that has been introduced. We were told that public sector wages had fallen behind the private sector and needed to be brought into line. No complaints so far. So how they do they achieve this. They set up a body that compares each job in the public sector with a job in the private sector and decides that they are underpaid by x%. Fair enough. They also promise that the pubic sector will have to accept greater accountability and work practice changes. So far this sounds great and no private sector worker could really have any complaints. But then it all starts to go wrong.....

Instead of making the whole process transparant, the report is confidential and so nobody in the priate sector can see exactly how the decision was made that workers in the public sector were underpaid and hence the mistrust that exists in the private sector about civil servants. I would like to know the answers to the following questions so we can start having an informed debate about the topic.

1. What are the equivalent jobs in the private sector that public sector jobs are being compared to.

2. What value is put on the defined benefit pension enjoyed by the public service especially in light of the growing examples in the private sector of companies replacing these schemes with defined contribution.

3. Does the same level of accountability exist in the private sector and the civil service. For example, how many civil servents/politicians were held accountable for the nursing home charges scandal that is costing the country over 1 billion euro. Think there would be a few job losses in the private sector for a similar cockup.

4. What work practices changes have been introduced since the last round of benchmarking

5. Why does the number of public sector employees keep growing and growing without a noticeable improvement in services provided.


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## BigM (22 Nov 2006)

Sunny said:


> 2. What value is put on the defined benefit pension enjoyed by the public service especially in light of the growing examples in the private sector of companies replacing these schemes with defined contribution.
> 
> 5. Why does the number of public sector employees keep growing and growing without a noticeable improvement in services provided.


 
And Q 2 (b) should be:
We were told how much benchmarking was going to cost in terms of increased salaries  - but how much is it going to cost in terms of the increased Defined Benefit Pensions. This is the hidden unquantified cost of benchmarking that all civil servants are aware of but nobody seems to be making a fuss about it

As for Q5 - if the govt persists with its decentralisation plan the number of civil servants will have to go up since they can't fire anybody. So if 100 people work in OPW (say) and it's moved to Tralee but only 10 people avail of the move, there's still (technically) the work of 100 people to be done so they'll have to hire more people in Tralee. But the 90 or so left in Dublin won't be fired so you end up with more than you started with.
This is supposed to be mitigated by non-replacement of retirees/leavers etc but I don't believe it works like that in reality.


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## Purple (22 Nov 2006)

I'm in the private sector and since the grass is always greener on the other side of the hill it must be better in the public sector. After all there's only a couple of hundred thousand people working in it so picking the slackers I have come across in different areas of the public sector and tarring the whole lot of them with the same brush is fair enough. Right?


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## rabbit (22 Nov 2006)

Purple said:


> I'm in the private sector and since the grass is always greener on the other side of the hill it must be better in the public sector.


 
Its not that the grass is always greener on the other side of the hill , its simply a fact that those on the other side of the hill enjoy better pensions, holiday pay, sick leave, longer coffe breaks, less real pressure,  security of employment etc..... all paid for by the taxpayer.   



Purple said:


> After all there's only a couple of hundred thousand people working in it so picking the slackers I have come across in different areas of the public sector and tarring the whole lot of them with the same brush is fair enough. Right?


 
They are all tarred with the same pay and conditions, but nobody denied there are good conscientous workers in the public service too.


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## bearishbull (23 Nov 2006)

Anyone hear the nurses at their demo yesterday? They want more money and won't accept the labour court ruling and won't go through benchmarking as they won't get enough that way! Now i think most nurses do a great job but i also think they are well paid and this is borne out by a comparison with other european countries.

They seem to be using the justified public annoyance at the current state of the health system to benefit themselves. Nobody will criticise the likes of nurses as they do such a highly regarded job. 

Nurses flock to this country from all over the world so it can't be that bad in the health system.

If the nurses succeed in getting more than the benchmarking system would award, then public sector workers from other areas will think they can get more than benchmarking etc and we'll have many more threats and incidents of industrial action. Massive wage increases in public sector just increase inflation in wider economy and make us less competitive internationally in this increasinglt globalised world.


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## edo (23 Nov 2006)

bearishbull said:


> Anyone hear the nurses at their demo yesterday? They want more money and won't accept the labour court ruling and won't go through benchmarking as they won't get enough that way! Now i think most nurses do a great job but i also think they are well paid and this is borne out by a comparison with other european count



Yeah - unbelievable - I really have to ask myself the question what planet these people are living on sometimes. A starting salary for a staff nurse has increased from 23000 eu in 2001 to 35000eu in 2006 - thats one hell of a jump in 5 years and that doesnt include the generous overtime that the unions jealously protect , at the expense of proper reform of the bottomless pit known as the Health Service. They were going to get the 3% under the national pay agreement and more under the last tranch of the current benchmarking agreement and God knows what fantasy numbers they will come up with in the next one.

 Well , personally speaking , thats 100% more than I'll be getting this year - the National pay agreements are voluntary in the private sector - we are going thru a downturn at the mo in our industry - its a cyclical thing - and if we survive and further improve our productivity (I have 5 guys now handling the same amount as 18 guys 4 years ago) I ll benefit on the way up again (I hope - for the moment Im grateful my job hasn't been outsourced yet) - thems are the breaks in the private sector - when things are going well and you are functioning well in your job you benefit , on the other hand when there is a downturn you have to be prepared for cutbacks, unpaid overtime or even redundancy - its a dog eat dog world out there, particularly if you are working in the Global market .

 In this country the global markets effects have been minimised for many in the legal professions, Property and construction related sector by the huge flood of borrowed money that has entered the economy over the last 4 - 5 years and the salaries and wages in those industries are just silly even with added immigrants slightly deflating the rocketing salaries and that has been responsible for the inflation spiral that is driving the public sector discontent - however this situation is temporary - sooner or later (and the by the looks of things sooner ,given the cooling property market) the pendulum will start swinging the other way and renumeration in those sectors will reflect this . The difference is that in the Public sector is once a raise is given it can never be taken away - well not by the bunch of pussies who are in residence in Dail Eireann at the moment anyway.

There is a sense of victimised marthyrdom within the Public Service as many of them are under the illusion that they are giving up millionaire status in private sector for the vocation and public duty to the Country. They always seem to compare themselves to the very high executive level of large Private sector firms when it comes to salaries etc etc . Personally I think many of them have a massively overinflated sense of self worth - from my own interactions with them on a daily basis and from comments here from Purple and others - The talent and application levels exhibited leave a hell of a lot to be desired - I wouldn't leave the vast majority I deal with it in a charge of a bottle bank , let alone a department of a private sector company.

Later

Edo


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## Purple (23 Nov 2006)

What most people don't seem to realise is how benchmarking in the public sector works. They are being benchmarked against each other, not against the private sector. This results in a never-ending spiral of wage growth and shorter hours. 
I don't deny for a minute that many or even most public sector workers work hard and well (if not efficiently or in a efficient system) but since benchmarking obviously ignores DB pensions and total job security there can be no comparison with the private sector.
I also don’t for a minute accept that Nurses have any real interest in patient welfare and have always thought that their protests about patient conditions in A&E was cynical and disingenuous as they will always elbow themselves in at the head of the queue when the money is being given out in the health service. At least the bus drivers etc are honest when they go on strike and don’t hide their pay claims behind a façade of vocational concern.


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## lmd (23 Nov 2006)

I just left a job in the health sector last month.  With no job lined up as I could not stick it any longer.  Without going into too much detail about it, my supervisor sat all day playing solitaire (which was an ongoing joke, everyone knew about it) but it ground me down eventually and when I complained was told that she had been there 13 years and that she was the supervisor and that was that.  There were other similar things, the waiting list for the particular service was over 3 years and IMO this is because most of the people I worked with were too into that civil service type mentality of coffee breaks and leaving at 5 on the dot so they only saw 1 or maximum 2 patients a day when if it was a private service believe me they would have been seeing around 6 or 7.  I was on great money, great holidays and great pension but I just could not stick the job any longer as the whole thing was so disorganised.  I am going back to working in the private sector with back to the paltry 20 days holidays (in comparison to the 26 I had) and extra 2.5 hours per week and alot more work to get done.  Luckily I was confident I could secure work in the private sector again quickly, which I have as I have good experience but I can only speak from experience, which is on two occasions I have worked in the health sector and civil service and on both occasions I ended up frustrated at not being able to get my own job done due to people who were there years being used to doing an hour's work a day.  I'm an idiot for leaving a well paid job with great holidays, I know I am, but unfortunately I am just not off that civil service mentality.


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## Sunny (23 Nov 2006)

Purple said:


> What most people don't seem to realise is how benchmarking in the public sector works. They are being benchmarked against each other, not against the private sector. This results in a never-ending spiral of wage growth and shorter hours.


 
Didn't realise that. Thought the whole point of benchmarking was to bring public sector pay into line with the private sector. What the hell does does benchmarking public sector worker against public sector worker acheive? So it's even more rubbish a process than I thought it was. Wow. 

People don't understand benchmarking because they never bothered to explain it.


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## Purple (23 Nov 2006)

Sunny said:


> Didn't realise that. Thought the whole point of benchmarking was to bring public sector pay into line with the private sector. What the hell does does benchmarking public sector worker against public sector worker acheive? So it's even more rubbish a process than I thought it was. Wow.
> 
> People don't understand benchmarking because they never bothered to explain it.



I'm not saying that's the theory but it's the reality. If it was linked to private sector pay then there would be pay freezes and pay cuts, increases in productivity with fewer employees and pay raises based on productivity based in their opposite number in China.


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## ajapale (23 Nov 2006)

Purple said:


> What most people don't seem to realise is how benchmarking in the public sector works.



On a point of information, the Benchmarking process relates to the Public *Service *(Civil Service and Public Services such as Teachers, Guards, Health Professionals, Local Authorities). The Benchmarking process does not apply to other parts of the Public *Sector* notably the commercial semi state sector.


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## Purple (24 Nov 2006)

ajapale said:


> On a point of information, the Benchmarking process relates to the Public *Service *(Civil Service and Public Services such as Teachers, Guards, Health Professionals, Local Authorities). The Benchmarking process does not apply to other parts of the Public *Sector* notably the commercial semi state sector.



I agree. With average wages in the ESB of €80'000 a year (and over €100'000 in some stations) who are they going to be benchmarked against?


> commercial semi state sector


 is that not an oxymoron?


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## Gordanus (24 Nov 2006)

lmd said:


> so they only saw 1 or maximum 2 patients a day when if it was a private service believe me they would have been seeing around 6 or 7.



I cannot believe this was a clinical service.................I have worked in both General Medicine and in Psychiatry and NOBODY would ever dream of getting away with that level of seeing patients.  Psychiatrists in the public health service will see about 15 patients in a morning's clinic.  Psychiatrists in the private health service will see less - more time for each patient.   Consultants in general medicine will often start the day at 8am in order to fit in Ward Rounds with their other duties, and I don't think anyone takes an hours lunch break, and 5.30 would be an early finish.   Can you give a little more information without identifying the place?


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## lemeister (24 Nov 2006)

Article in todays independent (free registration may be required): 
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Arial]*Public sector pay a big threat to nation: ISME*[/FONT]

from isme.ie

*Thursday 23rd November 2006
PUBLIC SECTOR PAY THREATENS ECONOMIC VIABILITY
*
•	Public sector pay a massive 46% higher than the average industrial wage.

• Pay and pensions bill will reach €18bn next year, representing 38% of current Government expenditure. Benchmarking awards will significantly add to this figure.

•	Public sector pay has more than doubled since 2000, with employment up 67,000 in the same period.

•	Tax increases will be required to pay for unprecedented levels of public sector pay.

•	No accountability, no action plans, no adequate services should equal no benchmarking.

•	ISME calls for a complete overhaul of the public sector in order to achieve value for money.


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## nelly (24 Nov 2006)

CAN you post the relevant text - as i cannot get it here - private sector & most newspaper sites blocked....
\thanks


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## Purple (24 Nov 2006)

Gordanus said:


> Consultants in general medicine will often start the day at 8am in order to fit in Ward Rounds with their other duties,


Would that be so that they can get over to the Blackrock Clinic for their real days work before the traffic gets too bad?


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## nelly (24 Nov 2006)

Purple - in Cork the consultants rooms are on the site of the public hosp to avoid this traffic delay - as if they even have comparable traffic.


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## ajapale (24 Nov 2006)

nelly,
your last post doesnt make sense.
aj


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## lmd (24 Nov 2006)

Gordanus said:


> I cannot believe this was a clinical service.................I have worked in both General Medicine and in Psychiatry and NOBODY would ever dream of getting away with that level of seeing patients. Psychiatrists in the public health service will see about 15 patients in a morning's clinic. Psychiatrists in the private health service will see less - more time for each patient. Consultants in general medicine will often start the day at 8am in order to fit in Ward Rounds with their other duties, and I don't think anyone takes an hours lunch break, and 5.30 would be an early finish. Can you give a little more information without identifying the place?


 
It was a psychiatry service in Dublin.  The clinicians would compain about 'a mountain of paperwork' to excuse the fact that they would see so few patients.  The consultant was out schmoozing with Bertie a few weeks ago and said to me 'I told him about the length of the waiting list', to which I felt like replying 'and did you tell him the reason for it was because you spend more time on your private work and going to conferences than seeing children' but of course that would have been more than my job was worth........  I found the clinicians constantly whinging about the fact that 'we never get any of these bonuses they get in the private sector', it used to make me laugh to myself, they wouldn't last 6 months in the private sector without the coffee breaks and the free scones.........


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## RainyDay (24 Nov 2006)

Purple said:


> I agree. With average wages in the ESB of €80'000 a year (and over €100'000 in some stations) who are they going to be benchmarked against?


Wouldn't it be nice if we could just stick to the facts. From the [broken link removed] - Section 24, employee costs

Total number of employees; 8,292
Total salary costs; €537,047k

Average salary is therefore: €64.76k, quite a distance from €80k

But let's not let the facts get in the way of a good lynching.....


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## MOB (24 Nov 2006)

Hi Rainyday,

did you come across any stat for the average employee costs in ESB power stations while researching this?


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## RainyDay (24 Nov 2006)

Nope, but all the reports are on the website if you want to go digging.


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## Dipole (24 Nov 2006)

The Deloitte report on the ESB might be a better place to look than the company accounts.  It offers a bit more insight in to the inefficiencies in the company.

[broken link removed]

payroll cost per employee was €95K per employee according to that report.


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## RainyDay (25 Nov 2006)

Dipole said:


> payroll cost per employee was €95K per employee according to that report.


And of course, payroll cost is a completely different metric to salary, as it includes PRSI (employee & employer) and pension contributions. 

Given that about 30-35% of the payroll cost comes immediately back to the state in the form of tax/PRSI, perhaps we should show the effective total payroll cost as around €60k per employee?


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## Dipole (25 Nov 2006)

RainyDay said:


> And of course, payroll cost is a completely different metric to salary, as it includes PRSI (employee & employer) and pension contributions.
> 
> Given that about 30-35% of the payroll cost comes immediately back to the state in the form of tax/PRSI, perhaps we should show the effective total payroll cost as around €60k per employee?



Rainyday, no employer in the private sector gives a damn about how much their employees take home as salary. They only care about what it costs to get a guy sitting at a desk or whatever working productively for them.
That's the reason why my last company retrenched from Ireland and the reason I was sent to India for my current company to train Indian colleagues to do the job I previously did. €95K average per employee is way too much for the ESB.


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## bearishbull (25 Nov 2006)

RainyDay said:


> Wouldn't it be nice if we could just stick to the facts. From the [broken link removed] - Section 24, employee costs
> 
> Total number of employees; 8,292
> Total salary costs; €537,047k
> ...


Thats an average, in the power generation part wages average 80k+. The average would include lots of lower paid contract staff and apprentice electricians etc.


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## RainyDay (25 Nov 2006)

Dipole said:


> Rainyday, no employer in the private sector gives a damn about how much their employees take home as salary. They only care about what it costs to get a guy sitting at a desk or whatever working productively for them.


THanks for highlighting my point yet again. Given that the state is the employer, and the state gets back 30%-40% of the total cost of employment through tax & PRSI, the 'what it costs to get a guy sitting at a desk' figure is much lower than the headline cost.


bearishbull said:


> in the power generation part wages average 80k+.


Source?


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## rabbit (25 Nov 2006)

Dipole said:


> Rainyday, no employer in the private sector gives a damn about how much their employees take home as salary. They only care about what it costs to get a guy sitting at a desk or whatever working productively for them.
> That's the reason why my last company retrenched from Ireland and the reason I was sent to India for my current company to train Indian colleagues to do the job I previously did. €95K average per employee is way too much for the ESB.


 
Well said, good point.  Part of the reason 5000 manufacturing jobs left Ireland in the recent past was because of uncompetitive overheads like electricity.     No wonder our electricity costs so much more than most if not all other countries when ESB costs are €95K average per employee.


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## RainyDay (25 Nov 2006)

rabbit said:


> Well said, good point.  Part of the reason 5000 manufacturing jobs left Ireland in the recent past was because of uncompetitive overheads like electricity.     No wonder our electricity costs so much more than most if not all other countries when ESB costs are €95K average per employee.


For the average manufacturing industry, the cost of electricity would be pretty insignificant when compared against the cost of labour. Indeed, the labour component of the cost of electricity (as opposed to the fuel component of the cost of electricity) would be even less significant than the cost of labour. Let's not fall for the IBEC/ISME scapegoating spin.


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## rabbit (25 Nov 2006)

Not always all that insignificant.  All businesses in Ireland have to spend more each year on electricity compared to their competitors abroad.   Some annual ESB bills are in the millions are they not ?     And because their employees have to earn more to pay their electricity bills, there is the knock on effect.    Its not the only overhead which is uncompetitive , but it is one.


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## Dipole (25 Nov 2006)

RainyDay said:


> THanks for highlighting my point yet again. Given that the state is the employer, and the state gets back 30%-40% of the total cost of employment through tax & PRSI, the 'what it costs to get a guy sitting at a desk' figure is much lower than the headline cost.
> 
> Source?



Rainyday, the link I gave you points out that small domestic consumers are paying more for electricity than anywhere else in the E.U.
I'm a small usage domestic consumer who resents having to pay larger E.S.B bills because the company is inefficient.  As an Irish citizen I have a stake in that company and I'm not being served well by it because it is not efficient.

A private company would constantly be striving to reduce costs regardless of what they currently are.  You are suggesting that the government has no incentive to reduce labour costs in the ESB.  I would have thought that a responsible government would want to lower payroll to lower the costs of an essential service to the public or else to take a bigger dividend each year with which to build hospitals, schools or roads.
How exactly is the ESB going to survive in a de-regulated market with such high costs?  Is it in the nation's interest for the ESB to fold within a few years of being privatised because of crippling labour costs?


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## RainyDay (25 Nov 2006)

rabbit said:


> Some annual ESB bills are in the millions are they not ?


Where the ESB bills are in millions, how big are the labour bills for those organisations? How much have the labour costs increased relative to the electricity costs?

For the record, I haven't said that the ESB is efficient or inefficient. I haven't said that the ESB shouldn't be reducing their labour costs (though I did notice that their headcount had reduced significantly from 2004 to 2005. 

I'm just pointing out that a lot of the 'civil service'-bashing that is going on in this thread and elsewhere is based more on pub-talk than facts.


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## Dipole (25 Nov 2006)

RainyDay said:


> I'm just pointing out that a lot of the 'civil service'-bashing that is going on in this thread and elsewhere is based more on pub-talk than facts.



Seems that the majority of the criticism in this thread is based on personal experience and/or information in the public domain.


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## ashambles (25 Nov 2006)

[broken link removed]

 The thermal power station at Poolbeg in Dublin - where staff costs run at €103,000 a head - consists of three aging individual units producing 490 megawatts of power in total. 

Plenty of coverage of ESB salaries in the media recently - so it's paper talk rather than pub talk, even an average of 65k is hardly cheap, certainly most private sector workers would consider this a substantial amount of money. 

Naturally the 65k figure doesn't factor in the full cost of funding ESB pensions.


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## ajapale (25 Nov 2006)

Dipole said:


> Seems that the majority of the criticism in this thread is based on personal experience and/or information in the public domain.



I have to agree that the majority of the cirticism in this thread is based on ancedotal evidence.


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## jdwex (25 Nov 2006)

ashambles said:


> [broken link removed]
> 
> The thermal power station at Poolbeg in Dublin - where staff costs run at €103,000 a head - consists of three aging individual units producing 490 megawatts of power in total.


 
It seems that ESB staff are very highly paid. However, it would be interesting to see the basic rates for the various grades, and how much these staff costs are made of overtime. I think in fairness it should be noted that the ESB are not allowed to invest in newer plant (to help level the playing field for new market entrants), so this probably increases the maintenance/overtime costs.


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## rabbit (25 Nov 2006)

RainyDay said:


> For the record, I haven't said that the ESB is efficient or inefficient. I haven't said that the ESB shouldn't be reducing their labour costs


 
Thats the problem.    Too many people put up with the civil service mentality of paying themselves much higher salaries  than the average industrial wage, and too many people willing to put up with paying our electricity prices which are much higher than most if not all other countries.


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## jdwex (25 Nov 2006)

rabbit said:


> Thats the problem. Too many people put up with the civil service mentality of paying themselves much higher salaries than the average industrial wage, and too many people willing to put up with paying our electricity prices which are much higher than most if not all other countries.


 

I think the figure is approx 10% higher than a comparable job in the private sector. It is meaningless just to compare it to the average industrial wage - average educational achievement is somewhat higher in the public sector.


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## rabbit (25 Nov 2006)

ashambles said:


> The thermal power station at Poolbeg in Dublin - where staff costs run at €103,000 a head - consists of three aging individual units producing 490 megawatts of power in total.


 
So the average worker in that electricity generating plant - on a salary of € 103,000 - with 100% job security and with his / her generous pension, sick days, generous holidays and coffeee breaks etc - is so much better educated than the average worker that they deserve  that salary and perks ?  Come off it. 

Any ESB workers I know are not highly educated and yet are relatively exceptionally very well paid...and one of them is continually off on sick leave for one minor ailment or another - when he is not on holidays to the caribbean or on some training course.  He admits himself its a very easy number.


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## jdwex (25 Nov 2006)

rabbit said:


> So the average worker in that electricity generating plant - on a salary of € 103,000 - with 100% job security and with his / her generous pension, sick days, generous holidays and coffeee breaks etc - is so much better educated than the average worker that they deserve that salary and perks ? Come off it.
> 
> Any ESB workers I know are not highly educated and yet are relatively exceptionally very well paid...and one of them is continually off on sick leave for one minor ailment or another - when he is not on holidays to the caribbean or on some training course. He admits himself its a very easy number.


 
Rabbit- you mentioned the civil service in the previous post- and I replied to it .

And The salary is not 103,000- that is total staff cost per head which is something different.
jd

ps I don't work in the civil or public service.


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## rabbit (25 Nov 2006)

jdwex said:


> And The salary is not 103,000- that is total staff cost per head which is something different.


 
OK Apologies.  The point is still largely the same.   "  So the average worker in that electricity generating plant - who each costs € 103,000 in salary and taxes to employ  - with 100% job security and with his / her  sick days, generous holidays and coffeee breaks etc - is so much better educated than the average worker that they deserve that salary and perks ? Come off it. 

Any ESB workers I know are not highly educated and yet are relatively exceptionally very well paid...and one of them is continually off on sick leave for one minor ailment or another - when he is not on holidays to the caribbean or on some training course. He admits himself its a very easy number."
​


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## rabbit (25 Nov 2006)

jdwex said:


> I don't work in the civil or public service.


 
But maybe you are employed there ?   LOL


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## jdwex (25 Nov 2006)

rabbit said:


> But maybe you are employed there ? LOL


.


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## RainyDay (25 Nov 2006)

rabbit said:


> Thats the problem.    Too many people put up with the civil service mentality of paying themselves much higher salaries  than the average industrial wage, and too many people willing to put up with paying our electricity prices which are much higher than most if not all other countries.



You seem to be making more assumptions that an ESB engineer has tea breaks. I didn't make any comment on what I'm willing/not willing to put up with. I was simply pointing out the gaping holes in the so-called case for the prosecution.


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## rabbit (25 Nov 2006)

RainyDay said:


> You seem to be making more assumptions that an ESB engineer has tea breaks..


 
The point is not about tea breaks.    If only the only difference between the public and private sectors was tea breaks.      I wrote " So the average worker in that electricity generating plant - who each costs € 103,000 in salary and taxes to employ - with 100% job security and with his / her sick days, generous holidays and coffeee breaks etc - is so much better educated than the average worker that they deserve that salary and perks ? Come off it. "



RainyDay said:


> I didn't make any comment on what I'm willing/not willing to put up with.


None of my business what you are willing / not willing to put up with.  However, should someone in the country not say stop to our escalating electricity prices, amonyg the highest in the world ?  It is contributing to our uncompetiveness.    If our manufacturing industry rewarded themselves with the same pay and conditions as the ESB workers they would not last very long on the world stage.   Should our electricity workers not put up with the same pay and conditions as workers in other sectors / other industrialised countries ?


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## RainyDay (26 Nov 2006)

rabbit said:


> However, should someone in the country not say stop to our escalating electricity prices, amonyg the highest in the world ?  It is contributing to our uncompetiveness.    If our manufacturing industry rewarded themselves with the same pay and conditions as the ESB workers they would not last very long on the world stage.   Should our electricity workers not put up with the same pay and conditions as workers in other sectors / other industrialised countries ?


Wouldn't it be interesting to see a comparison of the impact of the rise in electricity prices against the rise in house prices, and assess their respective impacts on our competitiveness or otherwise? Or maybe we should compare the impact of the rise in car prices on our competitiveness? The 'free market' isn't a perfect world, and certainly isn't a panacea for all our ills.


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## rabbit (26 Nov 2006)

RainyDay said:


> Wouldn't it be interesting to see a comparison of the impact of the rise in electricity prices against the rise in house prices, and assess their respective impacts on our competitiveness or otherwise?


 
Thats clouding the issue.    It is true however that everyone involded in the construction industry in Ireland has to pay some of the highest priced electricity in the world, but the now very high wage bill in the public sector is not the sole reason for our price bubble in the property area.



RainyDay said:


> The 'free market' isn't a perfect world, and certainly isn't a panacea for all our ills.


Nobody said the "free market" is a perfect world. However, there is nothing free about a select group of workers in a monopoly situation holding the country hostage, as they did during power strikes in years gone by. Electricity workers costing an average of € 103,000 each in payroll costs per annum is certainly not a free market. They must be the highest paid electricity workers in the world. No wonder our ESB bills are so high and ever increasing. No wonder multinationals are complaining about our economy becoming uncompetitive.


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## jdwex (26 Nov 2006)

rabbit said:


> OK Apologies. The point is still largely the same. " So the average worker in that electricity generating plant - who each costs € 103,000 in salary and taxes to employ - with 100% job security and with his / her sick days, generous holidays and coffeee breaks etc - is so much better educated than the average worker that they deserve that salary and perks ? Come off it.
> 
> Any ESB workers I know are not highly educated and yet are relatively exceptionally very well paid...and one of them is continually off on sick leave for one minor ailment or another - when he is not on holidays to the caribbean or on some training course. He admits himself its a very easy number."
> 
> ​


 
The actual report is here
http://www.dcmnr.gov.ie/NR/rdonlyre...6220DF2FC/26726/DeloitteReportOctober2006.pdf

From the report, the average salary in esb powergen is about 60k , compared to a sector average of about 50k. The issue is the disparity between these figures. Comparisons with "average industrial wage" are meaningless. They do mention a high level of overtime (near the end of the report), and poor operational efficiency of turbines-not surprising seeing as they are quite old


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## Dipole (26 Nov 2006)

ajapale said:


> I have to agree that the majority of the cirticism in this thread is based on ancedotal evidence.



Ajapale the majority of the input in terms of word count has come from Rabbit which was presented as anecdotal until challenged on it when he presented examples from personal experience
Practically all the other posters who contend that the public sector doesn't provide good service to it's customers were speaking from personal experience, not what they heard down the pub.
Read the thread again.


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## rabbit (26 Nov 2006)

ashambles said:


> [broken link removed]
> 
> The thermal power station at Poolbeg in Dublin - where staff costs run at €103,000 a head - consists of three aging individual units producing 490 megawatts of power in total.
> 
> ...


 
Well said ashambles.    Wrong again Dipole.


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## Dipole (27 Nov 2006)

rabbit said:


> Well said ashambles. Wrong again Dipole.


You mean Rainyday?


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## Purple (27 Nov 2006)

€65k plus DB pension. That's where the €80k came from. Apologies, but I can't remember the report I read it in though I have looked for it. 
I do not think that the majority of people who work in the public sector work any less hard that their those in the private sector. I do however think that while for many (especially in the civil service) there is what is in reality a job for life and a much better pension than in the private sector the notion of benchmarking is bogus.


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## Sunny (27 Nov 2006)

RainyDay said:


> Wouldn't it be interesting to see a comparison of the impact of the rise in electricity prices against the rise in house prices, and assess their respective impacts on our competitiveness or otherwise? .


 
Not really because I am not sure what you are comparing. Maybe people are mis-informed on this site and elsewhere about the ESB but when a Government sponsored report points out that the company is inefficient and staff costs are one of the main reasons, you can understand why people who have to pay larger bills to a monopoly state owned company are complaining. Even the ESB have admitted that electricity costs to the manufacturing industry are too high by European standards.


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## jdwex (27 Nov 2006)

Purple said:


> €65k plus DB pension. That's where the €80k came from. .


 
Yeah- you're right there.
On page 92 of the report D&T mention Powergen payroll cost and  (I think) Group average salary in the same paragraph.

On page 224 they mention the high level of overtime in the power plants.


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