# Credit Union prayer - time to leave this anachronism behind



## Complainer

I'm thinking about submitting a resolution for my CU's AGM this year to drop the CU prayer from all CU meetings. There is no place for religion in the operations of a community financial organisation. 

I know this probably isn't the biggest issues for CUs to be dealing with today - but it is something that needs to be changed.

Would anyone like to join me in submitting a similar motion at their own CU? Any suggested wordings for the resolution?


----------



## dewdrop

In view of all that has happened in our financial institutions I think more prayer is needed for wisdom and guidance!


----------



## steph1

And what harm can a little prayer do!


----------



## donee

as an  ex board member i always felt strange reciting it before a meeting but would i want it abolished,  dont know, but as 'steph1' says what harm can a prayer do.
but in the irish society we live in now maybe a non denominational prayer perhaps.
you got me thinking on that one.............


----------



## Mongola

Does this mean you do have to be Catholic to be on the board of a credit union? If not, you do have to leave the room? 
Personnally, it would not bother me, would find it bizare though as it is not a religious institution but from the point of view of an atheist or other religion???


----------



## Complainer

dewdrop said:


> In view of all that has happened in our financial institutions I think more prayer is needed for wisdom and guidance!


Personally, I'd prefer that we rely on good governance and regulation. But if anyone wants to pray for CUs, they are of course welcome to do so on their own time. It is just a bit of a silly tradition that meetings have to start out with a prayer.



steph1 said:


> And what harm can a little prayer do!





donee said:


> as an  ex board member i always felt strange reciting it before a meeting but would i want it abolished,  dont know, but as 'steph1' says what harm can a prayer do.


It can exclude people of non-Christian religions and people of no religion. If I suggested that we have a Muslim chant and a rain-dance before the CU meeting, I would be laughed out of the room. But because of this very Irish tradition, we have a Christian prayer.


Mongola said:


> Does this mean you do have to be Catholic to be on the board of a credit union? If not, you do have to leave the room?


The Irish solution to the Irish problem is that you bow your head and pretend to play along.


Mongola said:


> Personnally, it would not bother me, would find it bizare though as it  is not a religious institution but from the point of view of an atheist  or other religion???


Bizarre is the word.


----------



## Jim2007

Complainer said:


> It can exclude people of non-Christian religions and people of no religion. If I suggested that we have a Muslim chant and a rain-dance before the CU meeting, I would be laughed out of the room. But because of this very Irish tradition, we have a Christian prayer.



Total disagree!  You live in Western Europe, it has a predominantly Christian ethos, it's a fact of live you have to learn to accept and deal with. And that is the Swiss attitude to it - we don't teach religion in state schools, but they still celebrate Christmas, Easter and so on.  Parents of Muslim children are free to take their children out of school for those periods but most do not because they feel that their children need to get used to living in a Christian society.

We've had Muslim children at both my kids communions and my son's Godfather is Muslim, even the Catholic church did not have a problem with that.

At work last week we had the sudden death of a colleague and prayers were said in the office the following morning - several Muslim colleagues who were doing their Ramadan fast were also in attendance.  So yes we do have prayers at work, and that includes banks as well.

I think you need to get a broader perspective on how Christianity is handled in the rest of Europe.

Jim (Switzerland)


----------



## newirishman

A communal prayer at work? A quick prayer at the start CU meeting? 
Unless it the company or organisation is publicly related to whatever religion (like I don't know Caritas - a catholic organisation) I think both things are out of place, regardless of circumstances.
For any tragic accidents or death (like death of a colleague) I think the  "minute of silence" is much more appropriate. 
And at least it doesn't force any beliefs on anyone.


----------



## Complainer

Jim - thanks, it is always good to hear opposing views. My counter-points would be as follows:

1) Are we really in a predominantly Christian society? The Archbishop himself tells us that "On any particular Sunday about 18% of the Catholic population in the Archdiocese of Dublin attends Mass" http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=10535. If these people can't be bothered to get out of the jammies and go to Mass on a Sunday morning, why do they want to bother me with listening to their mumbled ritual prayer.

2) For me, it is not about the CU as a workplace - it is about the CU as a community organisation. If we are going to include the whole community of the 'common bond' (typically those that live or work in a particular area), then we shouldn't get tied up in rituals belonging to one section of that community.

3) I am not anti-prayer or anti-Church. I attend Church rituals myself, and I've no difficulty with prayer happening in its own context. A CU meeting is not the right context for this.


----------



## Jim2007

I would not confuse the Christian ethos with practicing a religion, it is not the same thing at all.  I would think that the majority of Europeans baptized into a Christian faith stop practicing their faith in adulthood, but they still see the Christian life style as "the way we do things around here".  So they will:

Have their childern baptized
Send their childern to religious classes when the time comes
Send their childern for communion, confirmation and so on
Expect that people show respect to their religious icons and so on
It is tradition, it's what they grew up with and how they expect it will go on.  

In Switzerland, we pay church taxes rather than taking up donations, so when you move to a new town and go to register at the town hall, one of the first questions you are asked is what is your religion?  Now everyone has the option to simply state that they are a non believer and avoid the 5% to 7% taxes, but guess what, over 95% will put down one of common forms of religion and go on to pay taxes!  And yet if you were to go to one of our churches on a Sunday morning, you'd be look to find 30 people attending the services!!!

Like I said, the ethos is Christian, so expect that Christians will be act as the do and have the supported in doing so.  You can't expect the majority of the people to change their ways, just because you have come along...

Jim.


----------



## Mongola

newirishman said:


> a communal prayer at work? A quick prayer at the start cu meeting?
> Unless it the company or organisation is publicly related to whatever religion (like i don't know caritas - a catholic organisation) i think both things are out of place, regardless of circumstances.
> For any tragic accidents or death (like death of a colleague) i think the "minute of silence" is much more appropriate.
> And at least it doesn't force any beliefs on anyone.


 
+1


----------



## DB74

Maybe all the Credit Unions should replace the prayer with a minute's silence!


----------



## Complainer

Some quick updates;

1) I'm not the only one to come up with this idea; http://www.atheist.ie/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1699&start=0

2) The CU prayer seems to be a fairly universal phenomenon - it is used in the USA, AUstralia, Caribbean etc

3) AAM has its own credit union, it seems [broken link removed]


----------



## Shawady

Why not replace it with the Shepard's prayer.
It could be extended to all financial institutions.

"Oh Lord, please don't let me f--k up"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Shepard


----------



## JoeB

Jim2007 said:


> ...., but they still see the Christian life style as "the way we do things around here".  So they will:
> 
> Have their childern baptized
> Send their childern to religious classes when the time comes
> Send their childern for communion, confirmation and so on
> Expect that people show respect to their religious icons and so on
> It is tradition, it's what they grew up with and how they expect it will go on.
> 
> ...
> 
> Jim.



Not everyone will get their children baptised,.. I am always surprised at the number of parents who hate the RC church, yet they get their children baptised.

Again for the religious classes, unless they deal with all religions, and don't teach the religion as if it's true.

The natural progression of catholic ceremonies is baptism, communion, confirmation, .. and then defection.


Expecting people to show respect to your religious beliefs is my major sticking point. Do you respect the right of Muslim men to have a belief that you are an infidel and that their God is commanding them to kill you? What about respecting the right of others to teach those beliefs to children?


Clearly many religious beliefs are very dangerous, and they promote exclusion... so they are not worthy of respect,.. instead religious beliefs should attract pity or derision, not respect.

It doesn't take any skill to believe in a fairytale... so faith is valueless, even if someone dies for it,.. they could have died for something worthwhile, .. not the continuance of fairytales.

I thnk the prayer is inappropriate.


----------



## dereko1969

JoeBallantin said:


> Not everyone will get their children baptised,.. I am always surprised at the number of parents who hate the RC church, yet they get their children baptised.
> 
> Again for the religious classes, unless they deal with all religions, and don't teach the religion as if it's true.
> 
> The natural progression of catholic ceremonies is baptism, communion, confirmation, .. and then defection.
> 
> 
> Expecting people to show respect to your religious beliefs is my major sticking point. *Do you respect the right of Muslim men to have a belief that you are an infidel and that their God is commanding them to kill you? What about respecting the right of others to teach those beliefs to children?*
> 
> 
> Clearly many religious beliefs are very dangerous, and they promote exclusion... so they are not worthy of respect,.. instead religious beliefs should attract pity or derision, not respect.
> 
> It doesn't take any skill to believe in a fairytale... so faith is valueless, even if someone dies for it,.. they could have died for something worthwhile, .. not the continuance of fairytales.
> 
> I thnk the prayer is inappropriate.


 
Where in the Qu'ran does it state that all infidels are to be killed?


----------



## T McGibney

JoeBallantin said:


> The natural progression of catholic ceremonies is baptism, communion, confirmation, .. and then defection.



Really? How many Irish Catholics 'defect' each year? Last time I checked, most Irish Catholics still prefer to marry in a church, and have their funeral in a church.



JoeBallantin said:


> Do you respect the right of Muslim men to have a belief  that you are an infidel and that their God is commanding them to kill  you?



What a repellent statement.


----------



## JoeB

My point is that it is absolutely silly to have a blanket respect for beliefs just because they are religious.

Respecting beliefs allows them to continue, and I feel strongly that the world would be a better place without religion.

I understand that many people pity me because I have no faith, and because I think religion is a waste of time.


----------



## T McGibney

JoeBallantin said:


> My point is that it is absolutely silly to have a blanket respect for beliefs just because they are religious.



But that's hardly at issue here? What we're discussing is a Christian custom (incidentally, not a Catholic one as some here have assumed), not a religious belief or set of beliefs

Anyway, this doesn't not give you carte blanche to make disgraceful comments about any religion.



JoeBallantin said:


> Respecting beliefs allows them to continue, and I feel strongly that the world would be a better place without religion.



Would you prefer that religious belief be made illegal a la Stalin et al?


----------



## JoeB

I shouldn't have used the example I did. I should have used the Jehovahs Witnesses who refuse blood transfusions, for themselves and also for their children. A judge in Ireland recently had to get up in the middle of the night to grant doctors permission to override the parents religious decision.

Teaching that belief to children is wrong, as children are gullible, and have been designed by evolution to be so. So it does represent child abuse, and the sooner it is recognised as such the better. Hence the extreme examples.


----------



## T McGibney

But again we're not discussing religious beliefs (extreme or otherwise) here, merely discussing a Christian custom. 

If you're arguing that the Credit Union prayer is a form of child abuse, then this clearly is nonsense.


----------



## JoeB

It's an interesting way to phrase it, but yes, I would say that the prayer is somewhere on a slippery slope, .. and at the bottom of the slope are extreme and unfounded beliefs.

Simply put, we can do without these superstitions.


----------



## T McGibney

But I could just as easily say that money is also on a slippery slope because some people steal and others will do extreme things for money. So we should get rid of money?


----------



## dewdrop

Slighty off topic does not the Dail commence proceedings daily with a prayer.  Would it take a referendum to dispense with this?


----------



## dereko1969

dewdrop said:


> Slighty off topic does not the Dail commence proceedings daily with a prayer. Would it take a referendum to dispense with this?


 
I don't think the Constitution requires the Dáil to commence with a prayer, there's lots of God stuff in the Constitution that shouldn't be there in my opinion, also the President/Judges have to swear on the Bible on getting the job, no affirmation for them.

The Dáil could just change it's arrangements very easily.


----------



## Mpsox

Is it actually such a bad thing to have a prayer or a moment of quiet reflection before a meeting? If you don't want to pray, fine, but take time out and contemplate why you are there instead. Maybe some of our bankers should have done that in the boom years.


----------



## Complainer

Mpsox said:


> Is it actually such a bad thing to have a prayer or a moment of quiet reflection before a meeting?


Quiet reflection - fine by me.

But why choose a prayer for a community organisation which does not reflect the membership of that organisation?

It is not a matter of disrespecting religous beliefs - it is a matter of the appropriateness of the context. If I was to propose prayers before the Ryanair AGM, or the union branch meeting, or the GAA 'bad behaviour' review meeting, I would almost certainly be refused - and rightly so. Prayers at a non-religious community organisation are not appropriate.


----------



## T McGibney

Complainer said:


> If I was to propose prayers before the Ryanair AGM, or the union branch meeting, or the GAA 'bad behaviour' review meeting, I would almost certainly be refused - and rightly so.



Short prayers are sometimes said at the conclusion of GAA meetings, normally as a mark of respect to recently-deceased members. If someone present requests that a prayer be said, that request is almost always honoured. A minutes silence is common at the start of games, for the same purpose.


----------



## The_Banker

Generally the parish priest is on the Board of Management of Credit Unions also. If it was up to me I would get rid of the Credit Union prayer and the parish priest from the BOM.

I think I will go to the next CU meeting to see if I can get the prayer abolished. Propose a motion, get it seconded and have it voted on. If it comes to a vote it will more than likely fail as generally it is the older generation who attend these AGMs, but it might make a few others think.


----------



## Crugers

Firstly the so called prayer is sometimes referred to as an/the 'Invocation' but it is the Christian Prayer of St Francis
_*Lord*, make me an instrument of your peace.__
Where there is hatred, let me sow love.__
Where there is injury, pardon.
__Where there is doubt, faith.__
Where there is despair, hope.
__Where there is darkness, light.
__Where there is sadness, joy.__*
O Divine Master*,__ grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled, as to console;__
to be understood, as to understand;
__to be loved, as to love.__
For it is in giving that we receive.__
It is in pardoning that we are pardoned,
__and *it is in dying that we are born to* *Eternal Life*._

Most of the sentiment fits well with the Operating Principles of the Credit Union Movement. However the words in bold type don't sit well in an organisation which has as one of its Principles NON DISCRIMINATION IN RACE, RELIGION AND POLITICS.


So to return to the OP's original points.
The Credit Union Act 1997 S80(2)(b) states that notice of AGM "_[FONT=&quot]shall be accompanied by the agenda for the meeting;[/FONT]_"

If the 'INVOCATION' isn't on the Agenda then it specifically must not happen! If a 'call to prayer' is made then it could be objected to on 'a point of order'!
Points of Order are always so welcome at AGM's! 
Make the point that the 'invocation' is not on the agenda and therefore must not be part of the meeting, retake your seat and await the "Wrath"!

As to submitting a resolution and how to word it -
Contact the Secretary of the Credit Union and request details of the procedure you should follow for submitting a Resolution. The wording should be along the lines:
"That this AGM resolves to adhere to the Operating Principles of the Credit Union Movement specifically "NON DISCRIMINATION IN RACE, RELIGION AND POLITICS" and resolves not to include or recite the Christian Prayer of St Francis at any of its meetings.

Model Standing Orders refer to Motions (Resolutions) thus
_5 - 10 MOTIONS.
5. All motions from the floor of the AGM must be proposed and seconded by members present at the AGM and moved by the proposer. If the proposer is absent when the motion is called, the motion shall be deemed to have failed.
6. A proposer of a motion may speak for such period as shall be at the discretion of theChairman of the meeting and shall have the right of reply before the motion is put to the meeting for a vote.
7. In exercising his/her right of reply, a proposer may not introduce new material.
8. The seconder of a motion shall have such time as shall be allowed by the Chairman to second the motion.
9. Members are entitled to speak on any such motion and must do so through the Chair. All speakers to any motion shall have such time as shall be at the discretion of the Chairman.
10. The Chairman shall have the absolute right to decide at any time when a motion has been sufficiently discussed and may put the motion to the meeting giving the proposer the right of reply before doing so._

HTH


----------



## Bronte

T McGibney said:


> Short prayers are sometimes said at the conclusion of GAA meetings, normally as a mark of respect to recently-deceased members. If someone present requests that a prayer be said, that request is almost always honoured. A minutes silence is common at the start of games, for the same purpose.


 
It is disrespectful to people who do not wish to say a prayer to ask it be said. 

No problem with a minutes silence.

Crugers, that's a great post, hopefully one day I'll be able to do just that at a credit union meeting.  There is a time and place for everything and religion should not be brought into a credit union meeting.


----------



## T McGibney

Bronte said:


> It is disrespectful to people who do not wish to say a prayer to ask it be said.



On that basis, I presume that it is equally disrespectful to ask people to stand for the national anthem at public events, if they do not wish to do so?


----------



## Locke

Lets just go with this, a hybrid prayer:

Our IMF, who art in Europe,
Worried of your name.
Your kingdom came,
Bertie we’ll blame,
In Tuam as it is in Mayo.

Give us this day, our daily (bread crumbs)
and forgive us our debts, 
as we also have forgiven our debtors. 
Lead us not into temptation,
And deliver us from fierce austerity and radio shows constantly talking to politicians.

Ah-well.


----------



## JoeB

The problem is that it becomes difficult to criticise cults and obviously false religions, when there are established religions demanding respect for their beliefs, when their beliefs are also likely to be false.

As a society we should criticise all faith based beliefs equally, and ban the teaching of religion to children as if it's true. Even by parents if that was possible. 

The world is at war,.. one only needs to look at America, and the battle there trying to get creationism taught in schools as if it has the same truth value as evolution, it clearly does not,.. and the pseudo-scientific arguments that it does are false. But they are well constructed, and complex, so they do trick people. There's also the American Talaban, where 40 million people follow preachers who advocate a return to Old Testament law,.. bringing back the death penalty for adultery, as per Leviticus.

I'm unsure what to do about Santa, and the Tooth Fairy.


----------



## Complainer

Crugers said:


> So to return to the OP's original points.
> The Credit Union Act 1997 S80(2)(b) states that notice of AGM "_[FONT=&quot]shall be accompanied by the agenda for the meeting;[/FONT]_"
> 
> If the 'INVOCATION' isn't on the Agenda then it specifically must not happen! If a 'call to prayer' is made then it could be objected to on 'a point of order'!
> Points of Order are always so welcome at AGM's!
> Make the point that the 'invocation' is not on the agenda and therefore must not be part of the meeting, retake your seat and await the "Wrath"!
> 
> As to submitting a resolution and how to word it -
> Contact the Secretary of the Credit Union and request details of the procedure you should follow for submitting a Resolution. The wording should be along the lines:
> "That this AGM resolves to adhere to the Operating Principles of the Credit Union Movement specifically "NON DISCRIMINATION IN RACE, RELIGION AND POLITICS" and resolves not to include or recite the Christian Prayer of St Francis at any of its meetings.
> 
> Model Standing Orders refer to Motions (Resolutions) thus
> _5 - 10 MOTIONS.
> 5. All motions from the floor of the AGM must be proposed and seconded by members present at the AGM and moved by the proposer. If the proposer is absent when the motion is called, the motion shall be deemed to have failed.
> 6. A proposer of a motion may speak for such period as shall be at the discretion of theChairman of the meeting and shall have the right of reply before the motion is put to the meeting for a vote.
> 7. In exercising his/her right of reply, a proposer may not introduce new material.
> 8. The seconder of a motion shall have such time as shall be allowed by the Chairman to second the motion.
> 9. Members are entitled to speak on any such motion and must do so through the Chair. All speakers to any motion shall have such time as shall be at the discretion of the Chairman.
> 10. The Chairman shall have the absolute right to decide at any time when a motion has been sufficiently discussed and may put the motion to the meeting giving the proposer the right of reply before doing so._


Thanks - very helpful. Is there any specific provisions about members putting down resolutions BEFORE the AGM, so that they get listed on the agenda, possibly with a supporting statement?


----------



## Crugers

Complainer said:


> Thanks - very helpful. Is there any specific provisions about members putting down resolutions BEFORE the AGM, so that they get listed on the agenda, possibly with a supporting statement?



That is where the "_Contact the Secretary of the Credit Union and request details of the procedure you should follow for submitting a Resolution._" comes in...
AFAIK neither the Standard Rules (ILCU) nor the CU Act 1997 specifies a procedure that must/should be followed. It would therefore be open to each CU as to what the appropriate procedure should be.

For ILCU AGMs, the League circulate details of proposed resolutions/motions well before the meeting so CU Boards can decide what way their delegate is mandated to vote.
The procedure in individual CUs would differ since it is not a meeting of delegates but of individual Members.
Have you ever had notice from your CU of any resolution/motion that is listed for proposal at any AGM? Usually there are ILCU Rule changes that require approval by individual CUs. If you were not notified of the details then, it is unlikely that the CU would change SOP's and include your resolution/motion on the Agenda notice prior to the AGM.


----------



## Complainer

Crugers said:


> That is where the "_Contact the Secretary of the Credit Union and request details of the procedure you should follow for submitting a Resolution._" comes in...
> AFAIK neither the Standard Rules (ILCU) nor the CU Act 1997 specifies a procedure that must/should be followed. It would therefore be open to each CU as to what the appropriate procedure should be.


Thanks - it's a bit strange that this is so vague, for a membership institution. I'd have expected that there would be clear guidelines about how members get resolutions down on the agenda. This was the case even in the good old days with the building societies - you need support of 25 or 50 members to get a resolution down, and you could submit a supporting text of 300 words to explain it. A cynic might think that the CU don't want to encourage members to be really active within their organisation!



Crugers said:


> Have you ever had notice from your CU of any resolution/motion that is listed for proposal at any AGM? Usually there are ILCU Rule changes that require approval by individual CUs. If you were not notified of the details then, it is unlikely that the CU would change SOP's and include your resolution/motion on the Agenda notice prior to the AGM.


Just don't remember, I'm afraid.



Bronte said:


> It is disrespectful to people who do not wish to say a prayer to ask it be said.
> 
> No problem with a minutes silence.
> 
> Crugers, that's a great post, hopefully one day I'll be able to do just that at a credit union meeting.  There is a time and place for everything and religion should not be brought into a credit union meeting.






The_Banker said:


> Generally the parish priest is on the Board of Management of Credit Unions also. If it was up to me I would get rid of the Credit Union prayer and the parish priest from the BOM.
> 
> I think I will go to the next CU meeting to see if I can get the prayer abolished. Propose a motion, get it seconded and have it voted on. If it comes to a vote it will more than likely fail as generally it is the older generation who attend these AGMs, but it might make a few others think.


I'm wondering about which would be the best tactic - do I try and raise it with no advance notice from the floor of the AGM? Or do I submit a resolution to the board beforehand, in the hope that they will include it on the Agenda. I can't see it getting any serious time or attention if raised under AOB when everybody wants to get on to the important business of the night - the draw for the free 'attendance' prizes. On the other hand, I'm wondering if the board will just go with tradition and block the resolution, in the absence of any clear guidelines about such resolutions.


----------



## Crugers

Complainer said:


> Thanks - it's a bit strange that this is so vague, for a membership institution. I'd have expected that there would be clear guidelines about how members get resolutions down on the agenda.



To remain affilliated to the ILCU you must comply with the Standard Rules for Credit Unions... Changes to those Rules are proposed at and adopted by ILCU AGM, not CU's AGM.

It may not be vague in your CU. They may have a policy on procedure to propose resolution/motion at AGM. It is just that there is NO movement wide recommended procedure laid out in the Act or the Standard Rules.


----------



## Complainer

The response from my CU is to submit the resolution 'for the consideration of the Board of Directors'. It just seems a bit vague, and makes it very easy for them say 'no' to something that challenges their tradition.


----------



## extopia

I think it's extraordinary that a meeting of a credit union would contain would begin with a superstitious ritual. The same goes for RTE's Angelus bells, or the various references to supernatural entities in our Constitution.

If I was taking part in such meetings, I would certainly not participate in the ritual, and would loudly protest its inclusion, which discriminates against rational, non-superstitious people.


----------



## Bronte

Complainer said:


> I'm wondering about which would be the best tactic - do I try and raise it with no advance notice from the floor of the AGM?
> 
> Or do I submit a resolution to the board beforehand, in the hope that they will include it on the Agenda.
> 
> On the other hand, I'm wondering if the board will just go with tradition and block the resolution, in the absence of any clear guidelines about such resolutions.


 
Well you can do both?  Submit the resolution and if that doesn't work bring it up at the AGM.


----------



## Bronte

T McGibney said:


> On that basis, I presume that it is equally disrespectful to ask people to stand for the national anthem at public events, if they do not wish to do so?


 
I don't see what the national anthem has to do with the discussion in hand?


----------



## Complainer

Bronte said:


> Well you can do both?  Submit the resolution and if that doesn't work bring it up at the AGM.


I might well do that - the disadvantage is that it allows them to prepare their response or to say "we already told you NO on that one".


----------



## JoeB

Jim2007 said:


> ....
> 
> We've had Muslim children at both my kids communions and my son's Godfather is Muslim, even the Catholic church did not have a problem with that.
> 
> ...
> 
> Jim (Switzerland)



That can't be true. Godparents must be Catholic, as their purpose is to bring the child up in the Catholic faith if something happens to the parents. A godparent must be baptised, and Catholic, and over 16.

In fact, according to this link (http://www.catholicdoors.com/courses/godpar.htm), there are many exclusions, including being a prostitute, or being married outside a church.


----------



## Complainer

JoeBallantin said:


> That can't be true. Godparents must be Catholic, as their purpose is to bring the child up in the Catholic faith if something happens to the parents. A godparent must be baptised, and Catholic, and over 16.


There is no enforcement of these rules.


----------



## T McGibney

Bronte said:


> I don't see what the national anthem has to do with the discussion in hand?



Why not? Observing the national anthem is an established custom at meetings of certain groups and associations, as is similarly the saying of prayers. Both customs can generate controversy amongst members of such groups or associations who do not agree with such customs, hence the IRFU's adoption of 'Ireland's Call', and the current discussion here.


----------



## JoeB

If people can put forward a compelling case for the banning of the National Anthem then I'm all for it. Who is supposedly insulted by it? (We are a divided island, .. so there are valid political reasons I'd imagine for an All Ireland Rugby team not to use a National Anthem from just one part of the island)

I personnally can't think of any great reasons, besides the political ones. 

I think respecting an anthem (of a country that is known to exist) is very different to respecting invocations to an invisible god, who almost certainly doesn't exist, and who the vast majority act as if they don't believe in.


----------



## Scotsgirl

JoeBallantin said:


> That can't be true. Godparents must be Catholic, as their purpose is to bring the child up in the Catholic faith if something happens to the parents. A godparent must be baptised, and Catholic, and over 16.


 

Both myself and my brother are CoI and we are godparents to Roman Catholic children.  Church didn't have any issue with this.


----------



## Slim

The Credit Union movement in Ireland is based on Christian ethos. The credit union prayer, it's called an 'invocation', is based on the writings of St. Francis, who, I think, pre-dates the Reformation and was a generally good egg! It does no harm, it could be multi-faith if you think 'Allah' instead of 'Lord'. If we had a Moslem elected to the Board I think we would establish first whether or not the invocation offends him/her. The invocation is NOT read out at AGM. I am not particularly religious but think we have far more pressing problems in the credit union movememt that the invocation. 

I cannot find any reference to the prayer/invocation in the Standard Rules. I cannot see how this would offend anyone except atheists who may remain silent during the saying of the invocation.

Slim
credit union director


----------



## Bronte

I and my other half as are members of my family members of credit unions.  I never knew they had any kind of prayer or invocation (what is the difference) before meetings.  

As for the suggestion that one should stand outside the meeting while the prayer is being said.  It's not a quesion of being insulted.  How about not bringing any religion of any persusaion into the meeting instead.


----------



## Complainer

Anyone1 said:


> Why not stay outside of the meeting until the prayer is over?  In my opinion, you appear to be just complaining for the sake of complaining.


So what, I have to wait outside the door and peep in to see if they have finished? 



Slim said:


> The Credit Union movement in Ireland is based on Christian ethos. The credit union prayer, it's called an 'invocation', is based on the writings of St. Francis, who, I think, pre-dates the Reformation and was a generally good egg! It does no harm, it could be multi-faith if you think 'Allah' instead of 'Lord'. If we had a Moslem elected to the Board I think we would establish first whether or not the invocation offends him/her. The invocation is NOT read out at AGM. I am not particularly religious but think we have far more pressing problems in the credit union movememt that the invocation.
> 
> I cannot find any reference to the prayer/invocation in the Standard Rules. I cannot see how this would offend anyone except atheists who may remain silent during the saying of the invocation.


Well, it does offend me. It offends me that the movement is bringing religion into a community organisation. There may be a history of a Christian ethos, but that is in the past. There is nothing in the current rules or articles about a Christian ethos. There is a principle of non-discrimination based on religion that is being ignored.

Remaining silent is really just expecting some people to ignore the issue. What is the justification for including the prayer?


----------



## horusd

Complainer said:


> ...*What is the justification for including the prayer*?


 
There isn't one and I agree it has no place in secular society. I attend mediation with buddahists and they do chant "prayers" or something like prayer, but I have no problem with this, it's part of the "spiritual" aspect of living. But I would be rightly put off by prayers or any such like in  the secular world. If it's harmless or meaningless, then that's even more reason to stop it. And if it has some meaning, then it must be a religious meaning which has no place in a secular enviornment.


----------



## CUJimmy

We would all do well to actually read the CU Invocation. It invokes the Lord to assist the Board to deal with people in a christian and compassionate manner. In todays climate I would say we need plenty of this.


----------



## ClubMan

CUJimmy said:


> We would all do well to actually read the CU Invocation. It invokes the Lord to assist the Board


But why not _Thor _or _Isis _or _Shiva _or the _Flying Spaghetti Monster _or _Bertrand Russell's _celestial teapot or ...


----------



## Complainer

CUJimmy said:


> We would all do well to actually read the CU Invocation. It invokes the Lord to assist the Board to deal with people in a christian and compassionate manner. In todays climate I would say we need plenty of this.


What Lord is this you refer to?


----------



## ClubMan

_Svayam Bhagavan_ I presume?


----------



## JoeB

CUJimmy said:


> We would all do well to actually read the CU Invocation. It invokes the Lord to assist the Board to deal with people in a christian and compassionate manner. In todays climate I would say we need plenty of this.



And you'd be happy enough to sit through a sungod ceremony and watch a child get sacrificed?

My point being that however reasonable your religion seems to you,.. it will seem totally silly to those not inculcated in it.


Your statement pre-supposes the existence of a Lord, and it also pre-supposes that other people would want to follow a lord who has wiped out the majority of the human race several times, according to legend.


----------



## T McGibney

JoeBallantin said:


> My point being that however reasonable your religion seems to you,.. it will seem totally silly to those not inculcated in it.



Really, Joe? I don't think so. Does anyone really count Buddhism (for example) as 'totally silly'?


----------



## ClubMan

T McGibney said:


> Really, Joe? I don't think so. Does anyone really count Buddhism (for example) as 'totally silly'?


This guy for one?

http://markfabian.blogspot.com/2011/04/why-buddhism-is-silly.html


----------



## dereko1969

In a thread about religion can we refer to Clubman as Lazarus? welcome back.


----------



## T McGibney

ClubMan said:


> This guy for one?
> 
> http://markfabian.blogspot.com/2011/04/why-buddhism-is-silly.html




In a 1,500-word article, he never even uses the word 'silly', despite the headline. Hardly proves his point so?


----------



## JoeB

Is Buddhism a religion?

What is your definition of a religion? (Mine might be 'a system of beliefs, with no evidence required or possible, relying on blind faith, and preaching about things that its adherents have no knowledge about')

Buddism doesn't require faith, nor does it claim insider knowledge about a supernatural being, nor is there a supernatural being mentioned.

So Buddhism is a way of life, similar to vegatarianism.


----------



## T McGibney

JoeBallantin said:


> Is Buddhism a religion?
> 
> What is your definition of a religion? (Mine might be 'a system of beliefs, with no evidence required or possible, relying on blind faith, and preaching about things that its adherents have no knowledge about')
> 
> Buddism doesn't require faith, nor does it claim insider knowledge about a supernatural being, nor is there a supernatural being mentioned.
> 
> So Buddhism is a way of life, similar to vegatarianism.



The Dublin Buddhist Centre doesn't agree with you



> The Dublin Buddhist Centre is part of a world-wide movement of Buddhist  					centres called the 					Triratna Buddhist Community  					(formerly the Friends of the Western Buddhist Order, FWBO).
> We are a not-for-profit *religious charity*, and have been teaching Buddhism, 					meditation and yoga in Dublin since 1990.


----------



## JoeB

People can define the word 'religious' to mean a lot of things. Given that those calling themselves 'religious' rarely define the term I can use it as it is usually used.

I doubt that Buddism is actually a religion, and perhaps the Dublin Buddists call themselves a religious charity for funding reasons.

I will be clearer so and say 'faith based religions'. Faith is that which allows people to express beliefs for which no evidence exists. Something the Buddists don't do as far as I know.

This also throws up problems. Consider Cargo Cults. Should we respect the beliefs of un-educated islanders that American planes are supernatural, and that by building runways out of coconuts we can arrange for spiritual intervention?.. ala John Frum?. 
We know for a fact that they are wrong,.. that American Planes are not Gods. But they say we are wrong, and they rely on faith to continue to believe in something for which contrary and disproving evidence exists.

Would you include Vegatarinism as a religion?


----------



## T McGibney

I don't know, I just consider that its a bit questionable for anyone to dismiss all religious belief as silly. None of us have a monopoly on wisdom.


----------



## JoeB

I think it is perfectly ok to tar all religions with the same brush. All faith based beliefs mind,.. not other non-faith based beliefs, like Vegatarinism. 

When the religions step up and provide some evidence for their beliefs then ok,.. until then, what choice have people but to dismiss them as cranks and loonies?


I respect them all equally, but when Catholicism is lumped in with Cargo Cults, Sun God workship and Scientology then it has to be no respect for any of them... how can it be different? I KNOW that Cargo Cults are wrong, and I'm pretty sure about the others. People don't check the sky before going outside to look for vengeful Gods... this is because they don't believe in them.

If Catholicism can put forward a case for why it's different then ok, but they can't. They are as likely to be correct as the Cargo Cults, and the Sun God people.


I can't understand how people could say 'well, the cargo cults are likely to be wrong, but not my religion.'


----------



## Complainer

T McGibney said:


> I don't know, I just consider that its a bit questionable for anyone to dismiss all religious belief as silly. None of us have a monopoly on wisdom.


Just in the interests of clarity, the original proposal about dropping the prayer was not based on the silliness or otherwise of the beliefs in question. 

It was based on the fact that 
a) not everyone in the credit union shares these beliefs, and
b) the beliefs are not relevant to the credit union.


----------



## T McGibney

There is a big difference between on the one hand, agreeing with someone's genuinely-held beliefs, or even conceding that they're likely to be correct, and on the other hand, respecting their beliefs and their right to believe. Tolerance works both ways.


----------



## T McGibney

Complainer said:


> Just in the interests of clarity, the original proposal about dropping the prayer was not based on the silliness or otherwise of the beliefs in question.
> 
> It was based on the fact that
> a) not everyone in the credit union shares these beliefs, and
> b) the beliefs are not relevant to the credit union.



Indeed, but Joe has supported your stance on the grounds that all religions are 'totally silly'. Hence the discussion.


----------



## JoeB

I respect the right of people to believe whatever they want. Those beliefs might include racist beliefs, or homophobic beliefs. But expressing some beliefs in public is already outlawed, the racist ones, and denial of the holocaust for example.

We should not tolerate the teaching of faith based beliefs to children,.. children are not the property of the parents. If we protect children from physical violence then why not protect them from mental pain?, and from inculcation?


So I respect the right of adults to believe what they want, but not the right of parents to teach children beliefs for which there is no evidence, as if it were true.


Sorry for derailing the thread.. it's just obvious that the CU are breaking their own rule about discrimination by having prayers to just one god. You could vote with your feet and remove your money, and write to them explaining why.


----------



## Mpsox

Complainer said:


> Just in the interests of clarity, the original proposal about dropping the prayer was not based on the silliness or otherwise of the beliefs in question.
> 
> It was based on the fact that
> a) not everyone in the credit union shares these beliefs, and
> b) the beliefs are not relevant to the credit union.


 
However, it is also possible that
a) not everyone in the credit union shares the belief that religon is not important
b) members of the credit union may believe that Christian beliefs (or any religous beliefs) are relevant to how the credit union was run.

Therefore whilst the prayer may offend your beliefs, removing it may offend others. Bit of a Catch 22! !.

I do think it is a debate that is worth having in the Credit Union and the fact that we now live in a more multi-cultural society then when credit unions were founded, perhaps means the prayer is not appropriate. Instead of asking for it's removal, perhaps suggest it's replaced by a minutes quite reflection where people can pray to whatever God they like, or just contemplate why they are there if they have no formal beliefs


----------



## CUJimmy

The lord can be whoever you want to be and if you don't believe in one then you dont have to recite the invocation. I think complainer should just put his motion to his credit union AGM, i hope all you guys are members of the same credit union. Should make for an interesting AGM but not one I would want to be at.


----------

