# PTSB - why did you break your fixed rate?



## Bronte (3 Aug 2015)

Can some of you tell us how come you break your fixed rates, what happened to trigger it, telephone call, letter what exactly.  We need to prove it was deliberate.


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## PTSBCase (3 Aug 2015)

I can't specifically remember but I know at the time I wasn't aware you could break for free. Think there was maybe an advertisement, definitely something to prompt me. What was unusual at the time a friend had a fixed mortgage at ptsb. I told him that I could break out for free & advised he do the same. He rang & was told he would have to pay several thousand to break early. I always thought that was strange. Anyway since this Ptsb scandal has occurred I spoke again to my friend & asked him what type of loan he had. He fixed with option to go to fixed or variable on expiry. So there you go. One example of him being treated differently as he didn't have a tracker to loose. I have informed my solicitor of this.


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## Bronte (3 Aug 2015)

It would be helpful to know how it came about that so many PTSB customers broker their fixed rates, took a fixed rate, moved to a very low variable and lost their trackers. 

So how exacly in the first instant did it come about that customers broke their fixed rate.  It is no easy thing to break a fixed rate.  It's nearly unheard of to not have to pay a penalty. 

So first question.  How did you become aware that you could break the fixed rate for free.  Was it an advertisment, a telephone call out of the blue ?


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## Bronte (3 Aug 2015)

PTSBCase said:


> I can't specifically remember but I know at the time I wasn't aware you could break for free. Think there was maybe an advertisement, definitely something to prompt me. What was unusual at the time a friend had a fixed mortgage at ptsb. I told him that I could break out for free & advised he do the same. He rang & was told he would have to pay several thousand to break early. I always thought that was strange. Anyway since this Ptsb scandal has occurred I spoke again to my friend & asked him what type of loan he had. He fixed with option to go to fixed or variable on expiry. So there you go. One example of him being treated differently as he didn't have a tracker to loose. I have informed my solicitor of this.


 
Try and remember.  Look at the paperwork or emails.  Something triggered it.  That's VERY interesting about your friend.  More signs of deliberate policy.

So another question:

Question 4.  Were only customers with trackers given the no break penalty option. 

Question 5. Were all other variable/fixed rate customers never offered it. 

Question 6. Were other fixed rate customers penalised (the normal penalty for breaking a fix)


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## Bronte (3 Aug 2015)

I think this might be it PTSB, proving it was deliberate policy.  And as Burgess said in his ST article, if so,  people in the bank should lose their job.  Well done on the details.  That's what we need for your guys, facts.  The more people tell their personal stories the more we get to it.


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## Bronte (3 Aug 2015)

Sophrosyne said:


> I think you are on to something Bronte!


 
Need more inspiration from posters telling us their stories.  I've been on to this for ages, how to prove it.  More info gets us there.  I want heads to roll.  I'm not vindictive but bankers need to be held accountable so that this debacle will prevent it happening again and I'm looking back in trepedation at the current madness of Dublin prices and the proper planning rules being thrown out to imprison future generations in terrible apartments.  Never will forget driving from Swords to Blanchadstown (I think) via old Ballymun and seeing kiddies bicycles up on tiny terraces.


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## PTSBCase (3 Aug 2015)

To follow up on above I have been told by my solicitor a few other shady incidents took place since 2009. People who went back into fixed contracts were allowed to break for again this time for a small fee. This was in recent years (after unknowingly loosing their trackers in 2009). Again this compared to other people who never had a tracker who were asked to pay thousands to break.  So in my eyes this again was deliberate by ptsb to allow anyone who broke for free in 2009 to break again for a small amount in recent years to prevent people from maybe looking at the details of their contracts or to ask questions.  Ptsb were aware of cases who were trying to obtain their trackers back & were doing their best to get anyone who wasn't aware they had lost their tracker over the 6 year mark so as to not be able to take a case. There are and must be lots of examples of this behaviour. The central bank need to continue digging.


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## Bronte (3 Aug 2015)

PTSB please contact the TD who is on the ball in relation to PTSB and feed him/her the information in a concise readable format.  The likes of Charlie Weston in the Indo etc read here and hopefully might do an article on it.


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## Joe_90 (3 Aug 2015)

Would it help to recall the change in ECB rates over the years:
2005 Dec. 2.25
2006 Mar. 2.50
2006 Jun. 2.75
2006 Oct. 3.25
2006 Dec. 3.50
2007 Mar. 3.75
2007 Jun. 4.00
2008 Jul. 4.25
2008 Oct. 3.75
2008 Nov. 3.25
2008 Dec. 2.50
2009 Jan. 2.00
2009 Mar. 1.50
2009 Apr 1.25
2009 May. 1.00
2011 Apr 1.25
2011 July 1.50
2011 Nov 1.25
2011 Dec 1.00

Edit by BB  - Full list here: 

* ECB rate history *


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## Joannmct (3 Aug 2015)

Bronte said:


> It would be helpful to know how it came about that so many PTSB customers broker their fixed rates, took a fixed rate, moved to a very low variable and lost their trackers.
> 
> So how exacly in the first instant did it come about that customers broke their fixed rate.  It is no easy thing to break a fixed rate.  It's nearly unheard of to not have to pay a penalty.
> 
> So first question.  How did you become aware that you could break the fixed rate for free.  Was it an advertisment, a telephone call out of the blue ?


I got a call out of the blue from the local branch to see how we were getting on and to request a meeting. We met him and he suggested we break the fixed rate without penalty. We asked if we would be offered a tracker rate and he told us they were "gone". We had made every payment up to that point so were puzzled by the call. We subsequently rang him and again asked him about the tracker but he said we would never be offered one because the bank were losing so much money on them. We were naive enough to then accept the svr offered and break out of fixed rate. We queried his cold call with complaints dept in 2011 and were told he did not deliberately trick us out of anything...nor did he keep any minutes of our meeting!! We did but to no avail.
Btw we were given 3.25 + in 2012 after long complaints procedure. We are now not included in redress scheme.

Edited to say the call was jan 2009


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## Bronte (3 Aug 2015)

Well done Joan.  Now everybody else, hhow did it come about.

NO WAY was that call out of the blue.

Very helpful insight, particularly:

a) out of the blue
b) told trackers were gone
c) told bank was losing money on them (they obviously couldn't add up as it took them a long time to figure that out)
d) he was able to offer you zero penalty - DEFINITELY POLICY, how was he told to offer this, by email, my telephone from head office, how was it communicated to him it was allowed
e) amazingly this 'offer' was by phone and meeting  - but not in writing.
f) no minutes, no record of meeting you

Joan you might not be in this redress but it doesn't mean the end for you.  You can send them a letter complaining and see what happens, there are probably many like you.


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## PTSBCase (3 Aug 2015)

I was told trackers were gone too when I asked, i.e. Not an option. Didn't even think to check my contract but it's obvious to the dogs on the street what they were up too.


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## AAM_User (3 Aug 2015)

I think we got a phone call to "advise us" we got our mortgage through a broker, so didn't have a local branch we were dealing with.  They insist we wrote to them unsolicited, but I keep scans of all correspondence inbound & electronic versions of all correspondence outbound & I haven't got it.  I asked them three times for a copy of the letter & they haven't sent it yet.


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## Bronte (3 Aug 2015)

AAM did they 'write' to you and state that it was you who initially wrote to them? It's telling you asked them three times with what response?

Which years did you ask?


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## AAM_User (3 Aug 2015)

It was last year that I asked them Bronte (when we discovered about all this).  They haven't written anything in relation to us writing to them.  I recall (loosely) getting a phone call about it, but I can't find any documentation agreeing to a new rate either...  We broke out 4-6 weeks before our fixed expired.  I find it all extremely suspect.


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## Bronte (3 Aug 2015)

Maybe your solicitor received the new rate letter.  But you MUST have signing something and you are entitled to the documenation under the Data protection code.


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## Win_Maya (3 Aug 2015)

Our mortgage was fixed at 5.65% until August 2010. When we asked to break the contract on the fixed rate in Jan 2009, we where surprised to find out that by paying 1300 only we can come out of the contract which we happily did and came on cheaper SVR. 
Our online account shows our current interest rate is down to 1.15% from 4.35%. Still awaiting the letter from PTSB. On reviewing the contract it states that at the end of our fixed rate contract in August 2010, we would have been switched to tracker rate with 1.10%+ ECB Rate.


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## Kelmcc (3 Aug 2015)

I was contacted by my broker February 09 and told that Ptsb had told him rates were dropping and anyone who were fixed should break out of them. I took the advice and broke our of a 5 yr fixed rate on 9th February without paying the fee. My mortgage was drawn down in October 2006.  I was told there was no tracker option available to us. 
Since that I've been paying SVR and have been totally unaware of people contesting with PTSB. I am part of the redress plan and I'm totally fuming what they have done. The cheek of them giving a rate of 3.25+ no way am I going to accept this after them conning people out of a cheaper tracker rate. Bring on the fight!


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## Bronte (3 Aug 2015)

g) mortgage brokers were contacted by PTSB to inform them that rates were dropping
- who contacted the brokers
- was it in writing
- why contact the broker, do they normally do this
- were brokers told fixed rates could be broken with zero penalty

Kelmcc other than the time the broker contacted you have you since the original mortgage ever had contact with him.  I find it did as I would have assumed the broker has nothing to do with you once you got your original mortgage.  Did you fix via him?

Why would he bother to contact you, what's in it for him?


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## matan (3 Aug 2015)

Hi bronte. I phoned our branch in jan 2009 to see how much penalty it would be to break fixed, we were 5% fixed. Was told there was no penalty we were just to send in a FAX stating we wanted to go on variable rate which we did because at the time my husband was not working. We were not given any options or advice. Following our fax we never received any correspondence from PTSB acknowledging receipt of our fax, no letter, follow up call nothing! Its not until 2010 i pulled out my letter of offer and saw we should have reverted to tracker not variable.


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## Kelmcc (3 Aug 2015)

I was friendly with the broker and he thought he was doing me a favour to be honest. I don't think there was a hidden agenda with him. He would have been in contact with Ptsb on a daily basis and because they were dropping he contacted me. I had to pay no fee, I do recall paying a fee on another mortgage but this was waived.


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## Wardy7 (3 Aug 2015)

I remember hearing about it and then ringing to find out. I think I phoned them maybe 3 times to have them confirm the no breakage fee, purely because I was gobsmacked and just couldn't wrap my head around it!

Each time I called, I felt I must be speaking to some whipper snapper who wasn't giving me the correct info!

It's January 09 rates I want now and not the April 10 one that they've given me!


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## fuzzy10 (3 Aug 2015)

We enquired about breaking from our fixed rate mortgage in Jan 09 after reading about other customers successfully switching to an svr.
When we rang PTSB, we were advised that it wasn't possible to switch. 
I wrote to the bank enquiring why I could not avail of this option..
PTSB wrote to me saying " in Jan09, there was a hold on breaking fixed rate mortgages pending an investigation of switching fees."
I was than advised that it would cost 12k to breakout.

I believe they deliberately targeted people who had trackers stated in their contracts (I did not).


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## Bronte (4 Aug 2015)

So poster Fuzzy had no tracker and was refused a 'no penalty' break from his fix. 

Anybody remember what the investigation of switching fees is about.  Presumably this has nothing to do with the tracker issue but is about the costs of switching accounts from one bank to another.


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## fuzzy10 (4 Aug 2015)

No.. the switching fees refers to switching from a fixed to a SVR.


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## Bronte (4 Aug 2015)

So there was two charges waived Fuzzy, the penalty for breaking the fix and a switching fee?

How much was the switching fee, presumably a fixed amount. 

Is that correct everybody else?


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## Joannmct (4 Aug 2015)

I have an interesting letter I got in response to my claim of being targeted when I brought it up in 2011. I'll post it later. Pure lies I see now that this has come to light.they basically told me I was lucky I took advantage of a glitch in a two month period which they honoured.even tho they cold called me!

I've photo of letter. How do I post it?


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## kaza (4 Aug 2015)

I went into a branch to talk with mortgage adviser in Jan 2009 because I was afraid I would not get my tracker back at the end of our fixed rate - as they seemed to be removing tracker mortgages from the market. When fixing I had got verbal agreement that I could go back onto tracker but had not gotten it in writing so I thought I had no case (was unaware of contract detailing return to tracker). It was mentioned to me about moving to SVR at no cost.

I was told that there was no penalties and that existing SVR customers ONLY would get an ECB rate reduction of .5% passed onto them on Feb 13th 09. Any SVR customers after that date would not get this ECB rate reduction. I was due to break out in Aug 09 so I thought, why wait until then to break out and get an SVR rate that is .5% higher! So I had a certain amount of time to get the fax in to ensure I got the ECB rate reduction in Feb (can't remember how long).

I took a couple of days to think about it and then rang their mortgage phoneline (what adviser had told me to do if I wanted to break).

So I broke out in Jan 09, approx 6 months early, from a fixed rate of 4.85% to move to a SVR of 4.65% - which I was told would be an SVR of 4.15% in Feb.


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## Bronte (4 Aug 2015)

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/thread...2009-should-have-been-offered-tracker.143916/ - poster Kaza on there as well.

http://blog.myhome.ie/2011/11/25/ar...ge-homeowners-urged-to-check-their-contracts/

___________

More interesting about PTSB trackers (investors only) in 2010 from the Indo, Charlie Weston

http://www.independent.ie/business/...let-owners-face-losing-trackers-26696569.html

bank memo mentioned in article.
________________

http://www.thepropertypin.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=26650

Poster Duisigh on there said this:

_I know someone who was working in a call centre trying to get people to switch away from their trackers. Nothing illegal in it. - _and stated he works in computer switching products

and from the pin link we get this

http://www.independent.ie/business/...nvestigate-banks-in-tracker-row-26586441.html

which presumably is the beginning of the PTSB fight against customers.  AND WHERE WERE THE CENTRAL BANK IN 2009 - 2014
_______________

More interesting from poster Norfbank in 2009 who said this on here:

_* the lender that was allowing people to break out of their fixed rates for "free" (but only if they were reverting to a tracker)*_

_I'm on there too as I suggested it was very sharp practice by the PTSB and I suggested to the poster to complain to the ombudsman - but customers did complain to the PTSB about their offer letters missing the tracker SO PTSB KNEW IT WAS A PROBLEM WAY BACK THEN BECAUSE OF ALL THE COMPLAINTS - HOW MANY COMPLAINTS DID THEY GET I WONDER.  _

And how many did they switch back to the corrrect tracker. 

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/thread...-option-as-per-loan-agreement-ecb-1-1.126677/

___________________


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## George13 (4 Aug 2015)

Does anybody actually remember paying more for a month or two after breaking ie their new SVR was higher than the fixed for a short while?


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## CarolineK (4 Aug 2015)

2009 - We were phoned by ptsb 3 weeks before the end of our fixed  and told we could change without penalty. We confirmed by writing. They wrote to us confirming the change.

Now they are saying they "have no record of the phonecall" even though our letter authorising them to change mentions it.

Now we wait for our offer..


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## AAM_User (4 Aug 2015)

George13 said:


> Does anybody actually remember paying more for a month or two after breaking ie their new SVR was higher than the fixed for a short while?



Your mortgage statement will be able to tell you the exact amounts per month.

Don't forget though that mortgages are paid a month in arrears. 

I'll be checking mine later to see also as if they finished the fixed term, we can get an extra .5%

Still waiting on the letter though, can't understand why they couldn't send them all together.


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## AppleSun (4 Aug 2015)

I saw other people switching online for no fee with PTSB...here is the link:  http://www.weddingsonline.ie/discus...terest-typr-on-mortgage-t176419.html#p1923021


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## Bronte (4 Aug 2015)

CarolineK said:


> 2009 - We were phoned by ptsb 3 weeks before the end of our fixed  and told we could change without penalty. We confirmed by writing. They wrote to us confirming the change.
> 
> Now they are saying they "have no record of the phonecall" even though our letter authorising them to change mentions it.
> 
> Now we wait for our offer..


 
More confirmation of cold calls from PTSB - this was no computer glitch or systematic error.

No records of phone calls - again

But your letter to them confirms the call.


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## Bronte (4 Aug 2015)

AppleSun said:


> I saw other people switching online for no fee with PTSB...here is the link:  http://www.weddingsonline.ie/discus...terest-typr-on-mortgage-t176419.html#p1923021


 
Very interesting - And poster Shopergals confirmation of a *20 day deadline* in that link.  Which backs up the other thread Burgess has now.

And poster Blissful took the advice and rang PTSB and was allowed break her fix for free.  If she sent a letter withing 20 days.


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