# Benchmarking and catch-up time



## shnaek (14 Oct 2003)

Every day I grow more sickened by the way that my tax is being spent. As a believer in the policies in many European countries I have no objections to tax, but I strongly object to the way it is being spent in this country. I wouldn't mind if we had great services to show for it - ie. good roads, great health system, civic offices open at hours that suit the working public. But to hear now that 50,000 non-skilled or semi-skilled other employees are going to piggy-back on the craft workers pay rise makes me sick. They are set to get 80pc of the agreed craft rate just because of the recent building boom where electricians and carpenters rates took off. This means 17pc pay boost - to be funded from where?

To hear the amount of money that is spent on our massive civil service every year on wages alone is reason enough for us all to refuse to pay tax. In fact, when I and most of my friends in IT were made redundant other more fortunate firends of mine in the civil service attempted to lure me in, and I must say that they made a very strong case.

Those that I work with now have the plan of working in the private sector until they have a family and then making the move into the civil service to take advanage of the time off, friendly hours and excellent pensions on offer there.

I must say that it appears an excellent plan to me, and the only way I am ever going to see the benefit of all the taxes I pay.


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## sluice44 (17 Oct 2003)

I agree with most of what you say.

What amazes me is that most Government dept's have 5000 or 10000 employees and they ALL deserve huge payrises (according to the Government).

Maybe AAM should start a new thread on 'civil service excesses'.

Sluice


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## Laser (18 Oct 2003)

*The Facts*

The facts are that 4 out of every five union members are now in the State and semi-state sector. Therefore the Union movement in Ireland largely exists to extort money from the State - which it, itself is running. And hence "Benechmarking", more correctly described as an ATM that debits your pocket.

Its quite clear that so called "productivity" improvements are at worst a sham and at best tokenism. This is a straight forward theft from the public purse pursued by an over-powerful vested interest group, and driven by the envy of the private, risk-taking sector that it felt did far too well for itself during the boom.

If you think that's too cynical consider that the new BIK changes will NOT uniquely apply to car parking spaces - but will to creches. Figure that one out. This country real sucks sometimes, and this is one of those moments when no politican is prepared to stand up to these behind-the-scene mandarins.


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## kildare1 (18 Oct 2003)

*benchmarking*

i am more than a little fed up off unsubstantiated remarks regarding benchmarking.ie., that the public sector are somehow "ripping off" the private sector. In my own case i moved from the private to public secotr (Teaching) some years ago. I took a huge pay cut to begin with and only recently have i been paid for holidays (halloween, easter, summer etc.) what many fail to realise is that there are very few permanent jobs being created any more in many areas of the public secor. In my own case the most I or any recently graduated teacher can hope to achieve is a one year contract. There are then in effect for many of us no "pensionable full time jobs for life" that many would imagine. You pay for your own pension and there is no opportunity for overtime, bonuses etc. It is not uncommon for teachers starting out to have a starting wage of less than 10,000 euro. So please remember that the public sector is not a superannuated dosshouse. I work damn hard for my money under ever diminishing resources thanks to government cutbacks. The real culprits behind the public finances mess are Ahern, Harney, McCreevy and co. and the lobby groups who they have looked after so well.


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## sluice44 (19 Oct 2003)

*Re: benchmarking*

'only recently have i been paid for holidays (halloween, easter, summer etc.)'

I work in the private sector and I get 20 days holiday per year.  After two years, I'll get 21 days.  Fair play to you for getting paid for your Easter holiday (2 weeks?) and your Summer Holidays (10 weeks?).

What's above is sour grapes on my part and not really relevant to the benchmarking debate.  The 'teachers' debate has been done to death elsewhere on AAM and probably shouldn't be resusitated.

One of the 'wise men' on the benchmarking committee resigned during the process and took a job with NUI, Maynooth.  He pointed out that nearly all of the civil service jobs were oversubscribed to a greater extent than the private sector.  In other words, people were voting with their feet (or CV's) and preferred to work in the civil service.  So why does the Govt need to massively overpay people who are happy to work these jobs?

Sluice


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## sluice44 (19 Oct 2003)

*Re: benchmarking*

Hi Kildare1,
I'm on dangerous ground here because contributors are not supposed to personalise things.

But you say you went from the private sector to the public sector.  I did the opposite and I'd be interested in why you did so.

I was kinda in a similar field - scientific research.  In research, you get your degree and PhD (or HDip for teaching).  Then you do one or two PostDoc posts and then, magically, you get a permanent lecturer/research job.  Also, in science, you generally have to go abroad for your PostDocs.  In teaching, you have to travel the far corners of Ireland.  Its kinda similar to your position - a ritual one has to go through.  In teaching, you do a couple of years 'temping' and then you get a full time job somewhere.

In my case, I woke up one day and realised that, if my master plan worked, I'd arrive back in Ireland at 35-ish, with no pension, no house, no savings etc etc.  So I switched to the private sector.  I'm now back in Ireland for the last 3 yrs and am a house-owner with pension, savings, car etc etc.  The good life!

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts, Kildare1.

Sluice


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## kildare1 (20 Oct 2003)

*benchmarking*

regarding sluice44's post, i went to the public sector to look for job satisfaction, and readily accepted a pay cut to ensure this. Comments above that productivity improvements are a sham are ill founded and display a lack of knowledge on those spouting this line. In my own case productivity has seen a big increase in working hours before any of the main benchmarking award has been handed over. In teaching a 12 month salary is effectively paid over 9 months;- if you are lucky enough to have some semblance of a contract. Many teachers nowadays are part-time.I was offered a job where i was only guaranteed 3 paid hours a week. If you were lucky enough you could get extra hours substituting for sick colleagues:- therefore, no sick colleagues, no work. While many older civil seravnts have permanancy,the casualisation of teaching, nursing etc. continues apace. As for the notion that there is no accountability in the public sector, i can tell you that if i or any colleague like me without a permanent contract fails to achieve good exam results etc.  you mightn't be long in being shown the door. It sickens me to hear IBEC and fellow travellers blaming all the ills of Irish society on the public sector. You don't hear them clamouring for stud farmers to be taxed or for the government to stop subsidising investors in the housing market. To finish this rant my point is: don't believe the hype that the public sector is a pensionable permanent non accountable haven from reality. If you do, why not give up your bonuses, overtime, company cars, share options etc. and join us?


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## kildare1 (20 Oct 2003)

*benchmarking*

just to clarify finally sluice44, i see your logic inmoving back to the private sector and admire your honesty.Regarding salary,just to clarify; in teaching and some other public secors with large holidays your wage is paid for hours worked and spread out over the year. another problem now emerging is banks dishing out easy money for houses, cars etc to non permanent civil srvants, possibly in the light of upcoming benchmarking. another unforseen aspect of the whole issue could a new credit boom and another contribution to the crazy rise in house prices


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## shnaek (20 Oct 2003)

*benchmarking*

I work in the private sector and have been made redundant once already this year and it is shaping up that I may be again after Christmas. Most of my workmates have experienced redundancy and most are under 35. 

I do not have a company car, shares or bonus, and I do not get paid overtime although I am expected to work it. I can not look forward to a redundancy payment of 250k if I am made redundant. 

I think that my case is similar to most of us working in the private sector. I think too much hype was made of the few in the private sector who made a lot of money from the celtic tiger. Maybe that mistake is being made with regard to the public sector now - but I really wish that our taxes were being spent in a way that benifited all of us. It just seems to me that all the extra money invested in the health system etc. has gone on wages and not on improvement in services.


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## rainyday (20 Oct 2003)

*Re: benchmarking*



> It just seems to me that all the extra money invested in the health system etc. has gone on wages and not on improvement in services


Hi Shnaek - What state do you think the health services would be in if this money had NOT been spent on wages? How many more nurses would have left the service? How many more speech therapists & radiographers & dieticians would have gone to the UK or US in search of decent salaries?


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## Ludraman (20 Oct 2003)

*Re: benchmarking*

"What state do you think the health services would be in if this money had NOT been spent on wages? How many more nurses would have left the service? How many more speech therapists & radiographers & dieticians would have gone to the UK or US in search of decent salaries? "

Rainyday, I can only speak from experience of having used the health sevices here and knowing some staff. Believe it or not, wages are not always the main drivers in some peoples jobs/careers.

There is a great dissatisfaction with the mismanagement within the HS in Ireland. Many that have left and may leave will do so for reasons of morale (banging head against a brick wall). Chucking money at them without addressing the core issues, does not necessarily solve the problem. Why not chuck the money at core issues?

It seems to be a new Irish solution to an old Irish problem. Even the (tax) tribunals system had an open chequebook for the recruitment of professionals, the interest was so low that the net had to be widened and standards dropped so as to include somebody with a previous tax misdemenour.

PS. No I would not have taken the position as I don't consider myself to have a compliant past!


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## rainyday (20 Oct 2003)

*Re: benchmarking*



> Chucking money at them without addressing the core issues, does not necessarily solve the problem. Why not chuck the money at core issues?



It's a bit of a chicken & egg situation, isn't it? There is no point in reorganising health boards and implementing consultancy reports if half the staff have left the service.

I agree with the need for health service reform. However, the assumption that 'all the increased spending which went on wages' is wasted is a false assumption - Believe it or not, things would be an awful lot worse now if these salary increases had NOT been paid.


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## Ludraman (20 Oct 2003)

*Re: benchmarking*

"There is no point in reorganising health boards and implementing consultancy reports if half the staff have left the service."

Tongue in cheek...............depends which half leave?


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## Snow White (20 Oct 2003)

*Listen to RTE*

Very relevant stuff on public vs private pensions on the M.Finucane Show last Friday. Have a listen, and tell me who is better off long term - the average "Joe" in the private sector or public.


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## darag (20 Oct 2003)

*Re: benchmarking*

a friend of mine has left a speech therapist position and is
moving to the UK.  believe it or not, money was not a reason
for leaving.  the reason for getting out was the system;
the feeling of frustration with wasted effort and resources
and feeling being part of a dysfunctional organisation.  having
to tell a ministerial level politician to "f*ck off" with their
attempt to shuffle a particular case to the front. having to
work in conditions where the simplest needs like stationary
were a chore to have addressed.  seeing budgets being
spent on computers for secretaries but no money being left to
provide basic training so the computers never got used.
being unable to have a security guard censured for being
rude and for making racist comments towards people arriving
for consultations.


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## Ludraman (20 Oct 2003)

*Re: benchmarking*

I totally agree! It's rotten with complacency from the top down, but that rot stops at the real carers.

Send in the cleaners, non party affiliated, with measuring points, complete power of mandate, and accountability.


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## Raggles (20 Oct 2003)

*That's not the point*

If you work in an area without competitive forces you accept as part of the deal a frustratingly stupid and inward looking organisation, incapable of joined up thinking, and a nuthouse for the innovative. But, and here's the but, it GUARANTEES a job for life to most, a strong-armed Union that's writing cheques to itself over the shoulders of sheepish politicans who can't run the country without you, AND spectacularly expensive pensions that you just can't get anywhere anymore.

Most public servants are prepared to put up with this existence for the financial peace of mind it brings. But purely from a financial perspective the average Civil Servant is far far better paid, especially if youn add the real cost of all the soft benefits like the Defined Benefit Scheme, free car parking, short hours, and so on.


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## Droxol (20 Oct 2003)

*self destruction - Benchmarking to fuel house prices*

Benchmarking will fuel house prices over the next few years, then the SSIA boom will push it along further, by that time there will be a economic recovery and our tax will have fuelled a crap standard of living of everyone, except people who have a job for life and are more productive, without being able to quantify how much ..


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## DerKaiser (1 Nov 2007)

Thought I'd resurrect this one as it's relevant again.  

Have a read of this:
http://www.independent.ie/national-...g-to-catch-semistate-gravy-train-1206636.html

And now this:
[broken link removed]

Now someone explain to me why our inefficient government should benchmark their wages against our efficient private sector.  I don't hear very much about this from the opposition so please don't tell me it's because we voted for the wrong crowd


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