# credit card fraud & chip and pin



## angrylad (18 Nov 2006)

On a recent visit to Brussels I was in a late bar and there were 19 attempted transactions on my *BOI* credit card, in total €8,000 was taken from my credit card.

Once I discovered this I contacted the bank immediately and they cancelled my credit card - confident that my pin number was not disclosed to anyone I thought that it would be easy to go to the bank and advise that these were not legitmate transactions.

On arriving back I contacted *BOI* and they advised that all the transcation (5 successful out of 19) were verified by pin and advised that they believe that I had a copy of my pin in my wallet and are refusing to refund me, citing negligence on my behalf and basically accusing me of being a liar, while admiting that there was fraudulent activity on my account. 

I put it to them that there promotional material advises that the bank may contact the merchant if they suspect fraud and that this did not happen and they have replied - negligence. 

I contacted their CEO and got a letter of acknowledgement and that was it. 

The banks seem to be shirking all responsibility as the pin was verified and they are going to be insisting that all consumers use chip and pin on all transactions from 17/03/07.

If I had to sign these slips as per previous credit cards I would not have been liable for these costs.

Is the new chip and pin technology the new 'get out' clause for the banks so that they no longer have to look after their customers??? 

My next step is the ombudsman (BOI advised that he always rules in there favour!!) Any advise would be greatly appreciated. 

Deppressed and angry *BOI* customer.


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## angrylad (18 Nov 2006)

Sorry just to add to this, has anyone heard of over riding of pin numbers on cards?


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## woods (18 Nov 2006)

It sounds as if someone had seen you using your number and had a good idea of what it was but had to play around a little to get it right. Were all the incorrect tries first followed by the correct ones.
If this was the case then thay can plead that you were neglegent but you can also claim that they were neglegent as this pattern of behaviour should have rang alarm bells.


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## angrylad (18 Nov 2006)

Thanks for replying - below are the transactions and attempted ones

4.20 am	€250.00		Successful
4.40 am	€2500.00	Successful
5.11 am	€2500.00	Successful
5.30 am	€5000.00	Unsuccessful
5.31 am €3000.00	Unsuccessful
5.32 am	€2500.00	Successful
5.53 am	€5000.00	Unsuccessful
5.53 am	€4500.00	Unsuccessful
5.54 am	€3000.00	Unsuccessful
5.54 am	€2000.00	Unsuccessful
5.55 am €1500.00	Unsuccessful
5.55 am	€1000.00	Unsuccessful
5.56 am	€850.00		Unsuccessful
5.56 am €500.00	Unsuccessful
5.57 am	€350.00		Unsuccessful
5.57 am	€250.00		Successful

and *bank of ireland's systems didn't notice anything unusual*


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## woods (18 Nov 2006)

Well that is my explanation out the window. How can they explain how someone who had the pin correct at first could screw it up later.
I do not understand it but it does seem as if the pin was not known and you may be off the hook.


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## woods (18 Nov 2006)

I take that back.
On looking at it again it looks as if it was not the pin that caused the failure of the transactions but the amounts.
It does look as if the pin number was known.


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## Murt10 (18 Nov 2006)

What sort of spending/withdrawal pattern had you got prior to these transactions. Do you often withdraw E2,500 in the middle of the night. The only times that I have spent over E1,000 on my card in one transaction was to buy some household goods or pay for a holiday. 

Maybe it's just me but I would expect that any attempt to withdraw E2.500 out of my account,  at twenty to five in the morning, should immediately send alarm bells clanging and be flagged as a very suspicious transaction, prompting a phone call to both me, on my mobile, and the trader to verify the transaction. 

For the same amount to be taken out again 31 minutes later defies belief, as for the last E2,500, a further 20 minutes later, what can you say, and the bank are trying to say that you were negligent.  

Not being used to spending that type of money on a night out, I can only assume that it was a casino or some sort of lapdancing club or that the person involved was engaged in something illegal, for such a bill, in such a short period of time, to be run up. Or else you had taken leave of your senses. I would assume that the place that the money was withdrawn from has CCTV which should show who used the card at those times. Otherwise either they or the bank should shoulder the loss.


Murt


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## Perplexed (19 Nov 2006)

This looks a bit typical of the pattern for cleaning out someones a/c. Though these patterns are normally on ATM's over the weekend, taking out the max daily amount.

Someone had to have your pin though & your card or it wouldn't have worked. It was not from an ATM obviously as they don't give out those amounts.

Did you use your card in this nightclub yourself ? What was your own first transaction amount ? 

Were all the transactions following in the same location? Were any friends with you who might possibly have done this ?

How soon after did you notice & inform your Cr Card company ?

Sorry for all the questions but I'm trying to get my head around this. I find it incredible that this happened & it's an awful situation for you. I work in banking & I like to be aware of scams so's I can warn customers what to look out for.

With any fraud in Ireland first thing we have to do is tell people to notify the guards. Perhaps they have some way of contacting the authorities in Brussels.  There is a company called ECC www.eccdublin.ie which deals with consumer issues in other EU countries. It might be worth your while to contact them.

There have been situations where people have claimed fraud on their cards & then when we get footage of the CCTV's it turns out to be either  flatmates, family members  & in one case it was the mistress of the man in question paying a very early morning visit to the ATM with his Cr Card.

I think this might well have rung alarm bells if it happened in the daytime. Not making excuses but I'm sure that in the middle of the night there would only be a skeleton staff on to deal with emergencies.


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## RainyDay (19 Nov 2006)

Try the Financial Services Ombudsman


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## angrylad (19 Nov 2006)

To answer some of the questions;

Like Murt10 I would never use my credit card for purchases over E1000 for the house or holiday but it would be very much so during the day and never at night time.

My main problem is that I do not remember entering in my pin number at all and the bank have been citing negligence on my behalf (this is why I asked in one of my previous posts about overriding the pin)- while I have to admit that if I dont remember using the card the only scenario that mkes sense is that someine in the bar saw me entering my details and then held on to my card and attemepted all these transactions. 

Dont get me wrong MUrt10 I would never spend that type of money on a night out (wish I could afford it) problem is that this happened in Brussels.

I tried to contact thre Garda Fruad Squad and the European Consumer Agency and both advised that they would call me back - I'm still waiting!

The bank have admitted the fraud but they do not even follow up on the bar they say its not up to them. I think it is there mighter than thou attitude that has been expressed is really annoying to me and I advised that I will pursue this to the end. I suppose i'm throwing it out there to get some feedback from other people.

Perplexed to answer your questions;

As above I do not remember using the card in this bar (I had had a few drinks over the night but was not falling all over the place, have often been in a lot worse states - that reads very badly but want to put you in the picture)

All the transactions were from the bar - they must have taken my wallet because I only noticed this when I got up the next morning and discovered that my cards were not in there usual places - didn't think much of it and then mentioned to a mate later and he advised to ring the bank and check just in case so I did and that's when I was advised that the card was used so I cancelled it and really did not think anymore of this as I knew that I didnt have my pin on me etc

None of my mates were with me I was looking for them - this is how I ended up in this place. So no none of my mates could of or I would expect would of done this. No chance of it being a mistress or anything like that either as I am single.

Agreed about the banks systems - do you think that this is the avenue that I should pursue??

I am going to try and contact the gardai and the Consumer agency tomorrow again.

Thanks


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## MugsGame (19 Nov 2006)

angrylad, I'm slightly confused about one detail. You say you were probably in the bar where the fraud occurred, but your friends weren't in that bar. What did you do in that bar? How did you pay for it?  Were you in that bar long enough for someone to take and replace your wallet?

There is no known way (currently) for someone to by-pass the PIN on the card. Assuming BoI are right, and the transactions were verified by PIN, someone else must know your PIN.

Did you use your card with PIN anywhere else that night? They might have had a camera watching the keypad. Alternatively, they could have had a doctored terminal that recorded your keystrokes or altered transaction amounts. Shell petrol stations in the UK had an inside job like this back in May where they had to [broken link removed]. This [broken link removed] is also interesting.

The other problem is how they had time to remove your wallet/card and bring it to an accomplice in the bar where the fraudulent transactions were processed. Did anyone have time to do that? It's also possible that a terminal in an establishment where you did use your card pretended to be a terminal in the other bar. This would require less access to your card. A final (but unlikely) possibility is that they cloned your card, chip and all. They would still need your PIN to use it, but it would give them plenty of time to perform the fraudulent transactions.


In terms of moving forward with a complaint against the bank, you need to escalate with customer care, and exhaust the bank's internal complaints procedures. Though from what you say about contacting the CEO, you may already have done this. Then you can go to the FS Ombudsman as Rainyday suggests. Legal action is also a possibility -- Ross Anderson has acted as an expert witness in banking card fraud cases in the UK. You should also pursue a criminal complaint against the bar whose merchant account the fraudulent transactions were processed through. As it's abroad, I don't know how much help the Guards can be.


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## Perplexed (19 Nov 2006)

Angrylad,

Thanks for being so honest. As far as I'm aware the only country that will actually over-ride a pin & accept a signature is Ireland. 

Also to the best of my knowledge if the pin was used, it's your responsibility. I think it's in the T & C's somewhere.  One of the staff in that bar must be aiding & abetting though. Who would spend those amounts in a bar normally ? A staff member had to produce the terminal & pay out the money.. The owners should be made aware of the situation otherwise I'm sure it'll happen to someone else, if it hasn't already.

Now that we're all part of Europe, surely there is some way in which our guards can contact & liase with the police in other countries.

Good luck, whatever happens. It's a nasty situation to be in & a major warning to the rest of us to be careful with our cards & pins.


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## MugsGame (19 Nov 2006)

> the only country that will actually over-ride a pin & accept a signature is Ireland.



Any merchant with chip and pin (in Ireland or abroad) can accept a signature instead of a PIN -- but this is risky for them as the they will be responsible for any fraud.



> if the pin was used, it's your responsibility. I think it's in the T & C's somewhere.


Yes, that's the bank's line. But if you can prove the bank's systems are faulty, a court might decide such T&Cs are unfair and unreasonable. I think this has already happened in the UK with ATM fraud cases.


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## Amygdala (19 Nov 2006)

Angrylad, I too am a little confused. What was actually purchased or was it cash withdrawls? If the transaction was to cover a purchase of an item or service then the merchant should be able/unable to furnish the receipt to prove the exchange (unless the management are involved). Also their sales should also balance with their cash and cc receipts for that night.


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## Cashstrapped (19 Nov 2006)

We had something similar happen with one of our work colleagues who had used the Chip & Pin at the Airport while travelling, however after a number of continuous transactions similar to what you outline it did raise alarm bells because our Creditcard Company(AIB) flagged it with us and asked us to make contact with this person to verify the transactions and they put a temporary stop on his card until it was verified, it did turn out to be fraud.  They believe the only way it could have happened was that while purchasing at the airport he was seen entering his pin by the person assisting him in the transaction.  They then used his number which had appeared on the transaction list (thing that comes from the machine) and manually entered it and used the Pin number they had seen him enter to put through transactions (inside job) this sounds very much like what has happened to you.  It would seem to me that if one bank has such a system in place a bank as big as BOI should have something similar you should def. check that one out, (could be someone wasn't doing their job that night and your paying the price).

Just another few things that came to mind:

What is the limit on your Credit Card?  Were these transactions still being processed even though it had gone over your Credit Limit, it would seem to me that BOI should be picking up the tab for anything over your limit then if it was their system that let you down and didn't protect you by allowing these amounts to be withdrawn without their approval, god knows there's many a time someone gets refused standing in a supermarket queue trying to pay for something ten euro over their approved limit.

Also it may be worth a call to the Police in Brussels to see if any others have logged a complaint about the same bar and then you might have some chance of making a claim against this establishment as I'm sure they have plenty of Insurance to cover against Employee fraud.

Then the real far out ones, I suppose there's no chance you have any insurance cover that covers fraudlent transactions on your card which includes cash withdrawals etc.  The banks usually offer this when you first get your creditcard I know mine is about 16euro a year and covers for all fraudlent use and as you said above the bank are not disputing the fraud their just playing the blame game by putting it back on you, saves them 8k i suppose.

I personally wouldn't let this lie, hope the establishment was lets say one we'd all go to on a weekend night out and not one you only hit when your on a lads weekend or I think you may have a fight on your hands!

Good luck!


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## Perplexed (20 Nov 2006)

Any country may be able to overide the pin but to the best of my knowledge very few merchants in other countries do. The reason being as you say that  they are then responsible if there is a fraud. Irish merchants will generally only do it if they know the customer.

From the list of transactions it looks like the Cr Card limit wasn't exceeded as the last amount allowed was €250 & no more.

SPC has a point as most places do recycle their CCTV tapes, so a request to hold one should be put in asap.

I hope something can be done as this is awful. Some member of the staff of that bar has to be involved.


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## triplex (20 Nov 2006)

I noticed that businesses keep one copy of the receipt - on this receipt is your full credit card number and the expiry date. You get the receipt with some of digits on your card blocked out. Once a salesperson knows this, all they have to do is watch you enter your pin number - there could even be a camera over your shoulder recording your entry..

and the rest is easy..


Go to the financial ombudsman - and get the name of everyperson in BOI you've been dealing with...


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## paddyodoors (20 Nov 2006)

Hi Angrylad

Nightmare situation and one which will lead me to lower my CC limit!!

The motive behind Chip and Pin was to protect merchants from CC fraud - the onus, prior to this, was on them - if they could not prove that the card was used (i.e. signed receipt) then the cash was debited from their account. So in this repect the banks have not changed their stance - it is just the consumer who gets hit now.

Still that said I cannot believe that this pattern of withdrawals and at this time should not have frozen the account earlier - a €250 tester then 2x 2500 within 60 minutes?

Do you know for sure it was cash withdrawals? 
IF CASH, I think the amount of cash available in a till would have been an issue. I used to work in a club and even on xmas eve etc - you would be struggling to have more than 8k in one till (there were 6 bars with 2 tills each), so cleaning it out would surely raise eyebrows when cashing up....and generally staff are assigned to the same till.

If something was actually purchased - then it may be possible to go through the chargeback route. - Get on to your credit card provider and state that even though goods were paid for - you never received them.... I believe that the merchant still has responsibility to provide a service.

I think the Merchant definately has to have some responsibility here unless it was a casino?

Good luck with this - Only sorry I havent any solution, keep us updated

Paddy


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## polo9n (20 Nov 2006)

yes this is scandalous with all this going on.even so called SAFE Chip and Pin proven to be nothing but a saftey net for the bankers!!!

i would recommend folks out there to cover their hand when keying in any pin number that include Chip and Pin or ATM withdrawal.
personally i would never go near the online banking as people probably seen and heard about Bank leaking customer card details leading to fraud use of the card!


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## DirtyH2O (20 Nov 2006)

I had money taken of my credit card at a foreign ATM or other type of cash terminal allegedly using my PIN and when I contacted BOI they said I must have disclosed my PIN somehow. I hadn't used the card in the same country before so I asked they investigate where the transactions happened, CCTV records etc. They refused and sent me a letter asserting that I _must _have disclosed the PIN as it is impossible to get money without it. Afterwards my brother used his ATM card without needing his PIN over the counter of a small agency\bank.  
It has led me to conclude that credit cards are about as secure as cash. There were some articles about Chip & Pin being very much in favour of banks, especially in disputes as it moves the burden of responsibility heavily towards the customer.

http://www.phantomwithdrawals.com/


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## angrylad (20 Nov 2006)

Thanks everyone for your replies I am going to call the Ombudsman and put my case to him regarding the non flagging of fraud on the account as it was the early hours of saturday morning and I am sure staff levels were low. 

I am also going to contact the bank and ask them to get the reciepts.

I'll keep you updated as I have no intention of letting it drop!!


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## angrylad (27 Nov 2006)

I went online and submitted a complaint to the omudsman and it would not submit, so I emailed him..... does anyone know how long it takes to get a reply??


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## Z100 (28 Nov 2006)

I'm sure we've all had experiences of our CC company ringing us up to query an attempted transaction on our account - my last one was when I had bought some clothes from an American online company, when they tried (legitimately) to take the money from my account in the early hours of the morning (Irish time) my CC company blocked them and rang me about it in the morning. _That_ is what I would expect from an even semi-vigilant company - the fact that they let all those transactions go through on your card (with all those unsuccessful attempts in between), at those times, is amazing. And as someone who has a ridiculously large limit on their card (e12,000 - needless to say not at my request, they kept raising it over the years), it's terrifying! Fight them forever on this - if you feel you're getting nowhere take a deep breath and go on the Joe Duffy Show, or something o ), the CC market is so competitive the last thing they'll want is ugly publicity. Best of luck.


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## polo9n (28 Nov 2006)

angrylad said:


> I went online and submitted a complaint to the omudsman and it would not submit, so I emailed him..... does anyone know how long it takes to get a reply??


 
Email? thats no good, it will take forever for them to read the email and pass it on to the right person, then subsequently make some action...ring them


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## angrylad (28 Nov 2006)

I retract my last comment - I got a letter from them in response to my email.


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## woods (28 Nov 2006)

Bushfire said:


> And as someone who has a ridiculously large limit on their card (e12,000 - needless to say not at my request, they kept raising it over the years), .


Get them to drop your limit if you are worried. If you do not need it then it is foolish to have it and increase your risk.


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## Z100 (29 Nov 2006)

woods said:


> Get them to drop your limit if you are worried. If you do not need it then it is foolish to have it and increase your risk.


 
Will definitely do that woods, tomorrow! Every time they upped up my limit I used to feel pleased, it was like an acknowledgment that I was doing well.....but then I thought: if I ever spent 12,000 in one month on my credit card it would be a fairly clear indication that I had well and truly mislaid the plot. Will have it lowered to about 1500, that's as much as I'd ever want to spend per month (emergencies only). Will the day ever come that it will be illegal for CC companies to up your limit without your permission?? Thanks.


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## robindch (1 Dec 2006)

_> Every time they upped up my limit I used to feel pleased, it was like an 
> acknowledgment that I was doing well.....but then I thought: _

You're right to be suspicious. The only reason they upped the limit is so that you can reach the point where you're no longer able to repay the cash you've borrowed on the card, and you can then be put onto the high-interest loan-facility, where the banks can finally make some money out of you as a credit-card holder.

_> Will have it lowered to about 1500, that's as much as I'd ever want to
> spend per month (emergencies only)._

A better idea. In fact, it's an even better again to hold a few different credit cards from a few different companies, just in case one card is compromised.

_> Will the day ever come that it will be illegal for CC companies to up
> your limit without your permission?_

It used to happen by default, but I believe that the banks were rapped over this last year sometime and have quietly stopped upping the limit, at the behest of the regulator.


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## ClubMan (1 Dec 2006)

robindch said:


> In fact, it's an even better again to hold a few different credit cards from a few different companies


At €40 p.a. stamp duty a pop not necessarily.

If you don't want you credit limit increased automatically just contact your card provider and ask them not to. I did this years ago and they stopped ever since.


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## DirtyH2O (1 Dec 2006)

You could always get a temp increase when needed and it's applied seconds after you ask - I've done it from a hotel lobby in Japan and paid my bill straightaway.


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## angrylad (5 Dec 2006)

I have heard back from the Ombudsman to say to give the bank one last chance - I have written to them again, got a notification to say that they would investigate it and come back to me in 28 days (this is their legal obligation)


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## Cashstrapped (5 Dec 2006)

That's a start for you anyway Angrylad at least they are acknowledging your correspondence and concerns.  One has to wonder though has it anything to do with the amount of Debit Cards they had to re-issue to their Account Holders as mentioned in the weekend newspapers, could it be that their system is not as good as they like to think it is, suppose it would be hard to tell thousands of people who have been having problems with their cards over the last few months that it's their fault and not the Banks!


Hope it works in your favour.


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## judocol (21 Dec 2006)

Hi there, I hope that you understand that you are covered for this fraud by the conmsumer credit act 1974, which states that even if you were negligent with your pin number then you can only be made liable to a max of 50.00


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## santiago (22 Dec 2006)

judocol said:


> you are covered for this fraud by the conmsumer credit act 1974, which states that even if you were negligent with your pin number then you can only be made liable to a max of 50.00


 Are you sure this is the case? My understanding was that the terms and conditions of the new chip and pin cards specifically meant that the onus was moved onto the cardholder to prove they hadn't carried out the transaction.
Otherwise, what's to stop someone "disputing" a transaction and getting an LCD TV for €50?


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## angrylad (23 Jan 2007)

Have not heard back from the 'special' department in the bank of Ireland to date and therefore am going to send all documentation through to the Financial Ombudsman - I can not believe that they have sent out a letter acknowledging my complaint and advised that they would reply within 28 days and then did not bother.... incredible! in saying that I have not paid the money yet and am getting charged interest each month - so it doesnt really surprise me. Watch this space!!!


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## Panzraam (23 Jan 2007)

Keep us posted


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## angrylad (24 Jan 2007)

Incredible - sent off all the correspondence to date to the FSO and arrive home this evening to a reply from the bank of Ireland saying that they are still not going to do anything and this is a sign off letter.

I can't believe I have waited and given them the chance to reply and when I do something I get the letter!!! It's dated the 18/01 but the date stamp is the 22/01 - I think that I will follow up my letter to the FSO and forward them the letter received from them today (pointing out the fact that they predated the letter) It works out at 35 working days to the 18th of January so they are still over. Hopefully the ombudsman will take this into account!!


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## potnoodler (29 Jan 2007)

Regarding the credit limit , I believe with MBNA anyway that the credit limit doesnt stop a payment to go through if  it pushes  over the limit merely earns you  a over the limit fee  €20 I think, according to the reps in mbna is that even if the pin is used you are still covered by as it is still fraud and it's their lack in security, although I can imagine it's not so pleasant after the fact.

One simple thing would be if they allow you to disable the ATM function on the card , but they don't.


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## Panzraam (6 Mar 2007)

Any update on this Angrylad?


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## angrylad (6 Mar 2007)

No, no update - just rang them today and have been advised that it is still in the investigation stage - it could take up to 2 more months by the time the FSO will be back to me. I don't mind as long as it is favourable.


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## Panzraam (6 Mar 2007)

Good luck!


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## angrylad (18 Aug 2007)

Hi All

Just to update you all on what happened in this case, the Financial Ombudsman ruled that the bank were at fault for not having the correct security systems in place - he also ruled that I was at fault for not keeping my pin secret and that each party was liable for 50% of the fee.

Expensive night out but pursuing the matter, I got at least 50% of the money refunded to the account. I have now decreased my credit card limit from 9K (because they just keep on putting it up) to 3K so that i will not be left exposed like this again.

I am also over the top when entering my pin into machines, particularily in restaurants, have even asked people to look away. 

Well lessons learned!! I for one will not be caught again!

Thanks for all the supportive comments!!


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## RainyDay (18 Aug 2007)

THanks for reporting back with the final outcome.


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## aircobra19 (18 Aug 2007)

Goes to prove that Chip and Pin is mainly for the banks protection. The consumer is no better off than before. IMO.


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## Perplexed (18 Aug 2007)

Angrylad. Glad to see you got something back, though I was hoping for a better outcome for you. It's been a really long haul for you. Hope they wrote off the interest.

Can't believe there was no attempt to bring the merchant into it at any stage. One of the staff had to be involved as who else would have access to the machine ?

It's a lesson to us all.


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## laragh (20 Aug 2007)

This post has really given me the hebegebees!

I am going to get in touch with my two credit card providers (AIB and Amex) and get them to lower my limits straight away.

Just to be clear - does having a lower limit shift the responsibility from the CC owner to the CC provider in the case of a fraudulant transaction which exceeds the limit?


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## pc7 (20 Aug 2007)

I got some dodgy looks shopping yesterday I was so paranoid entering my pin, its a scary thread the banks should be ashamed of themselves


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## aircobra19 (20 Aug 2007)

laragh said:


> ...Just to be clear - does having a lower limit shift the responsibility from the CC owner to the CC provider in the case of a fraudulant transaction which exceeds the limit?



I'm confused I thought you shouldn't be able to exceed the limit.


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## laragh (20 Aug 2007)

> I'm confused I thought you shouldn't be able to exceed the limit.


 
My understanding is that you can exceed the limit alright but there is a penalty for doing so - around €20 or so but this may vary depending on the provider. Time to dig out the T&C just to check.....!


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## aircobra19 (20 Aug 2007)

Ah ok. Didn't realise that. 

They should have a better system. Where you can lock to the limit unless you approve it by some other validated means.


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## so-crates (20 Aug 2007)

I know from my own card (low limit - got cross with the bank years ago for raising it and sending a "congratulations" letter and insisted that they never do so without my expressly requesting it) that if I try purchase over the limit it usually refuses. However I have noticed that this is not consistent. Unintentionally tested this last Christmas, RyanAir for example seem to refuse if you are too near your limit (even if you will still, by my calculation, be under it after their transaction!!!) but using the same card for another reasonably large purchase that same day it presented no issues and I even managed to push it over the limit and get a lovely warning letter from the bank (by which stage of course the balance was paid and the letter was pointless).


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## mmalone77 (1 Nov 2007)

Angrylad, 

I've had the exact same thing to me happen while in Frankfurt and couple of months ago. 

Only difference is that 2 of the transactions were on my laser card and were not chip & pin but swiped and signed. 

I had not idea about the transactions until the following day when my wife rang me asking if I had I had lost my credit card. When I rang my bank (AIB) the following day, I was still unaware of any transaction's carried out on my laser card until I tried to take cash out of the ATM. Wouldn't give me any cash, rang bank again. They then informed me, and only then I must stress, that roughly €2800 had been withdrawn from my current account through a mixtre of ATM transactions and the old method of pushing a transaction through for a signature (not chip & pin transactions). I accept that I am liable for the ATM transaction's as they require my pin number, but I should not be liable for the signed transactions (2, one for €960 and the other for €980), unless of course I signed the bloody things, which I most definitely do not remember doing. 

When I got back from Franfurt, I went to my branch about the transactions, asking what could be done....etc. I was told I had to what for the transactions to actually be processed before they could investigate. The 2 swiped and signed transactions took a week and a half to actually be debited from my account. I then put in a request for receipt with the bank, for which I have been charged by the bank I might add. Fair enough. When I put in the request for receipt I was told it could take up to 120 days. Okay. I was also told that if the merchant could not or would not provide them with proof of transaction or signature then I would not be held liable and refunded. 

Got in touch with my bank yesterday to see if there was any progress. I was politely inormed that they have received no response from either the merchant in Franfurt or the Bank in Germany. I was then told that because the transactions were carried out in a foreign country, tough luck, nothing they can do to refund the money, on yer bike.

I reminded the person in customer services, who I was dealing with from day one, of our conversation when I was putting inthe request for refund etc....He said, "Yeah, I would have thought you were entitled to a refund, let me get in touch with the fraud department again to make sure". Still waiting for him to call back. 

At this stage, pulling my hair out. Could you please, please, please give me the address for the Financial Ombudsman here in Ireland. I refuse to let this drop until I have proof before my eyes that I was stupid enough to sign off two seperate transactions within half an hour of each other for that kind of money.

Many thanks.


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## bond-007 (1 Nov 2007)

Go to the Gardaí now. Tell them that the bank are facillating fraud by doing nothing about it. 

Go back to the bank when it is busy and make a scene.


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## Sue Ellen (1 Nov 2007)

mmalone77 said:


> Could you please, please, please give me the address for the Financial Ombudsman here in Ireland



See here [broken link removed]


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## johnyblue (8 Jan 2008)

angrylad said:


> On a recent visit to Brussels I was in a late bar and there were 19 attempted transactions on my *BOI* credit card, in total €8,000 was taken from my credit card.



Here is a nice and in-depth explanation of credit card fraud


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## dave_brent (10 Jan 2008)

i heard you got a ruling in your favour on the radio....i presume it were you cause it mentioned figures and a bar in brussels..


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## RainyDay (10 Jan 2008)

Here's the details from the [broken link removed]





> *Case 3- Credit Card Fraud and ‘on the town’ event merits compensation of €2,500
> *A night out, or perhaps more precisely, a morning out “on the town” in Brussels, had
> unfortunate consequences for a Credit Card holder. It appears he visited various night
> spots. At one place, officially described by the Credit Card Company as a “drinking
> ...


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## polaris (16 Jan 2009)

I thought this case was angrylad's from this thread.

However, the details are different. I wonder if it's the same establishment?


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## bond-007 (16 Jan 2009)

Sounds very similar alright.


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## Epicurus (6 Jul 2013)

*Brussels card fraud*

Dear Angrylad.  I realise that this goes back 4 1/2 years, but having suffered from a similar scam recently (for similar sums of money) I am curious to know if there was a similar pattern of operation.  Like you, I went with two friends, from whom I was quickly separated by girls working in the club.  I wonder whether I had already been singled out as a target.  Like you, I am not a stranger to drink, but I typically remember most of what happened on some of my most extreme binges.  On this occasion I would say that I was comatose throughout most of the evening, so I wonder whether I was not drugged.  At some point in the night I was taken by taxi from one club where money had already been taken from a card to another where more money was taken.  Both clubs ensured that I had their credit card slips in my wallet, but there was not a single bill for whatever services I was supposed to have received.  The two clubs in question were called Interdit and Drink Inn.  Any of this sound familiar?


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