# Meter Readings



## Purple (7 Jun 2019)

Why on earth do we still have people walking around the country taking gas and electricity meter readings? I'm sure the technology has existed for decades to automate that function. It seems to be a massive waste of money employing people to do it.


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## jpd (7 Jun 2019)

You need to spend money on upgrading or replacing all the existing meters with automated reporting meters - this is obviously a costly exercise, so paying reader is the cheaper option at the moment 

Apart from the cost of the automated reader, you need to pay to have them installed


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## odyssey06 (7 Jun 2019)

Seem to be reading the meters less and less. My parent's gas meter is only read once a quarter at best, and doesn't even need access to the inside of the house to read it.


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## banner_man (7 Jun 2019)

The existing meters could be used. Customer takes photo of meter on a quarterly basis. Sends same to utility provider. Software reads meter and identifying meter number. Meta data from photo shows when photo was taken. Reduced costs to utility provider. Cheaper bills for us all!


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## Peanuts20 (7 Jun 2019)

we just update the details online. Meter reader is really just a double check these days. I thought there were plans to role out Smart meters but given the lack of broadband in much of the country, it'll be a while yet before everything is fully automated


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## Andrew Murphy (7 Jun 2019)

The roll out of smart meters is documented here. Extract...



> *Phase 1 (2019 –2020)* – 250,000 meters upgraded. Initial smart services being turned on in Q4 2020. This will include services such as time-of-use tariffs, smart bills, access to historical consumption information, etc.
> *Phase 2 (2021 –2022)* – 1million additional meters upgraded and the addition of smart prepayment (Smart PAYG) in Q4 2022.
> *Phase 3 (2023–2024)* – 1 million additional meters upgraded and additional functionality will be made available by ESBN through a Home Area Network (HAN). This will allow consumers to access real-time data on their household energy usage via a device in their home. *At this stage the costs and benefits of gas smart meters will be analysed by the CRU to determine their delivery*.



So electricity meters first and then who knows when gas meters will be converted.
It looks like manual readings will be with us for some time yet.


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## Leo (7 Jun 2019)

Peanuts20 said:


> but given the lack of broadband in much of the country



A few bytes of information really doesn't need broadband.


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## Leo (7 Jun 2019)

Andrew Murphy said:


> then who knows when gas meters will be converted.



Less that 35% of households are on the gas network. Very few new builds are installing gas boilers, so this will become less of an issue over time.


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## mathepac (7 Jun 2019)

I have written an app that uses OCR on a photo of  consumer meter to extract the few bytes of data needed to supply a meter reading and paste it into an SMS. No smart-meter or smart meter reader needed.

Security? No hassle automatic message content encryption / decryption and certain manufacturers have messaging apps that have never been hacked

Next stages are to extend the app to replace my Excel spread sheet to capture usage and cost data in real-time.

Who needs all the hassle and unreliability being experienced in places like the UK by dumb smart meters and dodgy installers. (Watchdog etc.)

[EDIT] I could of course modify the existing app to send meter readings to ESB networks automatically but it takes ESB networks 5 working days to get the reading to (in my case) Electric Ireland. If I phone in a reading it takes 5/6 working days to get a bill, up to 10 if I text it in.


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## Andrew Murphy (7 Jun 2019)

@mathepac, much of the functionality you have outlined will become redundant with the roll out of smart meters.

There is a mountain of info available here should you wish to research this topic further.

If you looking to create an app for residential/small business energy users then you ought to investigate how you can use the 1/2 hourly readings produced by smart meters, and build value-added services utilising this data. I personally believe that smart meters are going to confuse the hell out of many people so anything that simplifies peoples lives will be a winner.


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## newtothis (7 Jun 2019)

Purple said:


> Why on earth do we still have people walking around the country taking gas and electricity meter readings? I'm sure the technology has existed for decades to automate that function. It seems to be a massive waste of money employing people to do it.


Because there’s a big difference between technology existing to do something and it actually being widely deployed. So far, the economics just don’t stack up, mainly because there are so many meters. I was involved in this about 15 years ago: the technology existed even then, but it didn’t make sense, except in certain scenarios. There are three sets of costs: the cost of the meters with the capability, the cost of installing them and the cost of the network required to get the information from the meter. It’s only with 5G that mobile networks will be specifically designed for this kind of application. Then there’s the issue of power: apart from electricity meters where power can be “borrowed”, you need to power a smart gas or water meter: batteries have to be replaced periodically.  The cost of smart meter rollout in the UK is about £11billion. That would pay for a lot of manual meter reading over an extended period, and certainly not anything any private company would take on.


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## mathepac (7 Jun 2019)

Using existing technology and my little spread-sheet  I can produce better more accurate estimates than the ESB when they miss meter readings. The new meters wili not reduce costs for the consumer they'll do the opposite (again!)

[EDIT] If ESB/ESB networks cannot estimate consumer bills accurately, how  do they forecast their own energy needs?


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## Andrew Murphy (8 Jun 2019)

mathepac said:


> I can produce better more accurate estimates than the ESB when they miss meter readings.



Hi mathepac,

When you talk of accuracy are you referring to the calculation of the estimated reading itself, or the bill produced by your supplier which is based on the estimated reading provided by ESB Networks?

If it is the latter and you are always missing the meter reader then simply providing ESB with your actual readings on a diarised basis will ensure your supplier bill is accurate without having to go to the effort of doing the calculations yourself.

Am I missing something?


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## Easeler (8 Jun 2019)

It's probably going that way, another job lost to technology, it was a handy gig not well paid anymore but a good ould number back in the day when you were working for the ESB.


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## odyssey06 (8 Jun 2019)

I got a bill from ESB, estimated, they asked to provide meter readings. I did, it reset the system and I had to phone to get bill issued.
Some of their 'estimations' make no sense based on previous usage, and supplied \ actual meter readings.


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## mathepac (8 Jun 2019)

Andrew Murphy said:


> Am I missing something?


Because I have my summer & winter readings (units used), I can accurately forecast my consumption per 61 day billing cycle (we get 6 ESB bills per year) in any year  and produce the resulting invoices to within a euro or two of the actual bill. ESB in winter grossly underestimate consumption in my experience, sometimes by in excess of €100.  The numbers they use for consumption figures on "estimated" bills seem to come from a random number generator!

Joking aside, the implications for consumers receiving grossly underestimated energy bills can be catastrophic, financially and emotionally. Pre-pay meters and the averaging of bills over a year are not the answers either, any more than smart-meters. If ESB staff can't use their own existing, simple technology available in-house now, what are the odds they'll mess up again with the new stuff?

Pre-pay meters result in higher costs for the consumer and the "averaged out over the year" billing, aka budget billing paid by direct debit of course, has caused problems for neighbours (over-payments difficult to get back, under-payments causing worry).

If I get an estimated bill I phone customer services, give them the new reading and ask for a new bill. I don't pay by direct debit and I get paper bills. Hard-copy utility bills are very handy and given their ineptitude with calculators or simple spread-sheets, would you want ESB (other re-branded energy suppliers may operate in your area) to have access to your bank account?

An early version of my simple ESB template is available as a key post (rates are well out of date by now)

I'll update it when I get a chance.


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## Andrew Murphy (8 Jun 2019)

Hi mathepac,

I have had a look at your spreadsheet, run a few of my bills through it, and don't get what problem it solves. All it seems to do is verify what my supplier has charged me.

I get what you are saying about the impact of over/under charging and more generally the cost burden the new smart meters will have on energy users, but the easiest way to avoid wild estimated readings is to provide actual meter readings to ESB Networks on a regular basis, for example on the
first day of every odd month i.e. a few days before your supplier issues their bi-monthly invoice.

I can't help thinking you are over complicating the problem.

I think the real issue we ought to be discussing are the data protection / privacy issues that smart meters will introduce, but that is a topic for another thread perhaps.


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## mathepac (8 Jun 2019)

The first thing to note is that the litlle spread sheet does exactly what is says on the tin - it calculates electricity bills in advance of them arriving from your supplier. By taking frequent e.g. weekly, readings, you can monitor usage over time and costs. 

By building the spread sheets into a work book, with each sheet representing two billing periods, you can build a historical data-base to feed to a forecasting algorithm. To maintain multiple months, use the "Move/Copy Sheet" in Excel and rename the copied sheet appropriately and input the new data to the new sheet.

In times of high electricity usage e.g. winter, you may opt for shorter billing cycles, maybe 45 days, in order to keep bills to manageable levels. The idea of the sheet is to begin to capture data for analysis, something ESB Networks does very badly or not at all from a consumer perspective. HTH


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## Marion (9 Jun 2019)

Purple

That is a very clever observation.  It does seem ridiculous! 

We could receive a discount for sending in our own records.  We only need a key to open the box. 

Win-win. Except perhaps for the people who carry out the meter readings. 

Maybe they could be employed on other duties? 

Marion


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## mathepac (9 Jun 2019)

Any hardware shop or builder will sell you or give you a meter box key, they're all identical. Or just use a small pair of pliers, you won't be done for B&E!


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## PaddyBloggit (9 Jun 2019)

Marion said:


> Maybe they could be employed on other duties?



I doubt it as they are just 3rd party contractors and not direct employees.

As I have electric gates and I'm often away, I'm always enetering my own reading online.

It's easy to get a key for the box Marion.


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## mathepac (9 Jun 2019)

Andrew Murphy said:


> I have had a look at your spreadsheet, run a few of my bills through it, and don't get what problem it solves. All it seems to do is verify what my supplier has charged me.


 Maybe I need to do a "Read me first"   The little spreadsheet does the following:

Calculates your daily and weekly consumption in units and in money terms on-gong, and in advance of your bill
Calculates the fully burdened (ancillary charges plus VAT) cost/unit of electricity consumed for any billing period*
Forecasts the date your bill is due
Forecasts the total of your next bill, based on current run rates
Based on taking periodic readings (weekly maybe?) it supports decision-making about when to give Electric Ireland a meter-reading
*I believe suppliers should be obliged by the regulator to supply consumers with this information, the *real* cost of electricity. 

If there are any suggestions from posters to improve the spreadsheet, or if bugs arise, please PM me. You know how open & receptive I am to suggestions


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## jpd (9 Jun 2019)

I have a spreadsheet which tracks our electricity usage since forever - with graphs of annual usage and cost. This isn't really rocket science as anyone with a passing knowledge of spreadsheets could do it within 30 minutes


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## mathepac (9 Jun 2019)

For some people it is, which is what I kept it simple


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## Bronte (10 Jun 2019)

mathepac said:


> Using existing technology and my little spread-sheet  I can produce better more accurate estimates than the ESB when they miss meter readings. The new meters wili not reduce costs for the consumer they'll do the opposite (again!)
> 
> [EDIT] If ESB/ESB networks cannot estimate consumer bills accurately, how  do they forecast their own energy needs?


Abroad for gas, ECB snd water your annual consumption is based on the prior year and then you pay by DD each month orbi monthly. I read the meters myself though the odd year some comes as well.

You don’t need a spreadsheet. Just add up one years bills and divide by 12 or 6.

Annually I’ll get a credit or have to pay more dependable on how severe the winter was. Not filling the swimming pool too often helps. In Ireland that wasn’t a problem as water is free.


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