# Thinking of having baby in 'Mount Carmel', Dublin. Any experiences?



## adorado

Hello, 

I am thinking of having a baby in Mount Carmel's Hospital in Dublin. Can anyone give feedback about their experiences there?

Thanks


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## efm

adorado said:


> Hello, I am thinking of having a baby in Mount Carmel's Hospital in Dublin. Can anyone give feedback about their experiences there?Thanks


 
I've heard they deliver great babies  - To be honest I would be more concerned about geting the best gyneacologist for you and your baby rather than picking the hospital first! What does your GP recommend? Is this you first child? Where are you living?

For what it's worth I have heard that Mount Carmel is very good and that their focus is very much on the mother whereas in other maternity hospitals the focus is on the child (eg Mt Carmel will take a newborn away from a mother for a night to give her a rest while in Holles street for example they will insist the baby stays with the Mother to bond properly - this example is not an absolute nor does it infer that medical care is inferior in one hospital when compared to another). 

However, I believe (ie this is hearsay and not backed up with first hand evidence)that Mt Carmel does not have the full neo natal emergency staff or equipment so if there are difficulties with the birth or with the health of the child after birth the baby may need to be transferred to Holles Street (The National Maternity Hospital) which does have the full range of expertise, equipment and staff available. It is for this reason I believe that first time mothers are pointed in the direction of Holles street as statistically there is a greater chance of medical issues with a first birth.


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## adorado

I'm looking for somewhere where I will be well looked after. I have been in the maternity hospital a few times visiting friends that have had babies there, and to be honest, I was horrified. 

I'm from another EU country, and have doctors in my family and when they hear some of the stories...or even the drugs they are using here, that are obsoletes there for the last 20 years...I'm quite scared of having a baby in a Public Hospital. I am sure there are also great people and great experiences to tell, but it is the first time and I prefer somewhere more "personal". 

I can't fly to my country when I am heavily pregnant, so I will have to have the baby in Ireland. 

Thanks a lot for your comments.


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## huskerdu

I would suggest that you check out the website www.eumom.ie where Mount Carmel is discussed regularly.


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## adorado

Thanks a mill


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## Vanilla

Or www.rollercoaster.ie is a mine of information too.


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## aircobra19

efm said:


> ...
> However, I believe (ie this is hearsay and not backed up with first hand evidence)that Mt Carmel does not have the full neo natal emergency staff or equipment so if there are difficulties with the birth or with the health of the child after birth the baby may need to be transferred to Holles Street (The National Maternity Hospital) which does have the full range of expertise, equipment and staff available. It is for this reason I believe that first time mothers are pointed in the direction of Holles street as statistically there is a greater chance of medical issues with a first birth.



I also have heard this aswell, but from the medial staff in Holles Strett directly.


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## annR

Adorado, 

[broken link removed]

Ireland is behind the other European countries for infant mortality but the difference is so small (.2 babies per 1000 worse than the EU average or 2 babies per 1000 worse than best EU country),  I don't think you need to worry.


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## efm

adorado said:


> I'm looking for somewhere where I will be well looked after. I have been in the maternity hospital a few times visiting friends that have had babies there, and to be honest, I was horrified.
> 
> I'm from another EU country, and have doctors in my family and when they hear some of the stories...or even the drugs they are using here, that are obsoletes there for the last 20 years...I'm quite scared of having a baby in a Public Hospital. I am sure there are also great people and great experiences to tell, but it is the first time and I prefer somewhere more "personal".


 
Adorado,

From my experience of Holles Street and the nurses and midwives there I believe that they would take great exception to your comments above - whatever about the physical age and layout of the hospital there is no way that they would continue to proscribe drugs or procedures that are medically unsound or "obsolete"; that is not the way they operate. I would suggest that you visit Holles Street and Mt Carmel and talk to the midwives there and if you do have concerns over certain procedures or drugs and the rationale for using them then raise them with the staff.


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## Vanilla

Don't forget different cultures have different expectations too so even countries like France which has one of the best health systems in the world still ( I'm told by my family) strap women in ( legs in stirrups) when in labour. Uuurggh!


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## adorado

efm said:


> Adorado,
> 
> From my experience of Holles Street and the nurses and midwives there I believe that they would take great exception to your comments above - whatever about the physical age and layout of the hospital there is no way that they would continue to proscribe drugs or procedures that are medically unsound or "obsolete"; that is not the way they operate. I would suggest that you visit Holles Street and Mt Carmel and talk to the midwives there and if you do have concerns over certain procedures or drugs and the rationale for using them then raise them with the staff.


 

Unfortunately it is true. Even drugs that you would get here for a simple kidney infection are not in use over there for the last number of years. Nothing wrong with that, but you are a bit behind with that regard.


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## giddyup

We've (ha ha) had 2 babies in Mt Carmel.  No complaints.  You are well looked after and the accommodation (in the broadest sense of the word) is good.  More flexible on visiting etc. some people like that others are glad of the tighter hours elsewhere.  One thing we found and it's probably true of all maternity hospitals is that you'll deal with many different nurses and midwives and they all have a range of opinions on how different aspects of the care should go.  Best advice I can give on that score is try to have a good idea of how you want things to go and dont let nurses bully you (in the nicest possible way) into doing things differently if you dont agree.  Bottom line:  if we ever decide on number 3 we'll be going back to Mt Carmel.

Have a look at eumom as other posters have suggested but bear in mind it can get a little, hmmmm, "emotional", over there.


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## nelly

Mt Carmel is private and if you compare the care and attenion given to private patients in public hospitals then i reckon you do get nigh on the same. If you go to public hosp as a private patient you risk having a bed in a semiprivate ward, if you go to Mt Carmel you risk having to have your baby and yourself transferred to public hosp with emergency facilities... this choice seems to be the difference.


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## adorado

giddyup said:


> We've (ha ha) had 2 babies in Mt Carmel. No complaints. You are well looked after and the accommodation (in the broadest sense of the word) is good. More flexible on visiting etc. some people like that others are glad of the tighter hours elsewhere. One thing we found and it's probably true of all maternity hospitals is that you'll deal with many different nurses and midwives and they all have a range of opinions on how different aspects of the care should go. Best advice I can give on that score is try to have a good idea of how you want things to go and dont let nurses bully you (in the nicest possible way) into doing things differently if you dont agree. Bottom line: if we ever decide on number 3 we'll be going back to Mt Carmel.
> 
> Have a look at eumom as other posters have suggested but bear in mind it can get a little, hmmmm, "emotional", over there.


 
Thank you very much for your comments!


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## r2d2

adorado said:


> Hello,
> 
> I am thinking of having a baby in Mount Carmel's Hospital in Dublin. Can anyone give feedback about their experiences there?
> 
> Thanks


 
Was born there in 1967 and had a most pleasant introduction to life !  

r2d2


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## Towger

aircobra19 said:


> I also have heard this aswell, but from the medial staff in Holles Strett directly.


 
I have heard this a few times as well, including from a doctor in Mount Carmel!

Towger.


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## DeBarr

We've had all our three kids in Holles Street (last August for the latest addition). Even though the decor is a bit dated the staff were great and really looked after us - not one complaint in that regard.... Our first was slightly complicated - breech birth - but my wife was still able to deliver naturally.....

If you go private you may get into the "Merrion Wing" which is the private section but space is limited in there so it depends on the number of arrivals....


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## pernickety

Vanilla said:


> Don't forget different cultures have different expectations too so even countries like France which has one of the best health systems in the world still ( I'm told by my family) strap women in ( legs in stirrups) when in labour. Uuurggh!


 
not true any longer, at least not where I gave birth in France!


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## aman

Had both of my children in Mt Carmel & would not go anywhere else. Mt Carmel does have a special care unit & an excellent paediatrician. However they are not equipped to deal with babies born before 32 weeks. If there is a chance your baby will be born before that you will be sent to Holles Street. In saying that I had preeclampsia on my first child who was born at 35 weeks & the care we both got was superb. The first grandchild of one of the gynaes was born there a couple of months ago  - don't really think he'd let his daughter give birth there if there was any risk.
Another thing to bear in mind is that Mt Carmel is a general hospital & therefore is the only place in Dublin where if the mother needs to go to intensive care her child will actually be in the same hospital with her. If you give birth in any of the 3 maternity hospitals & need intensive care you will be shipped of to a general hospital & your child will be left in the hospital where you gave birth.


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## ClubMan

We had our first last year in the _Rotunda _and had no problem (other than an emergency _CS _and later with the billing/admin department as documented elsewhere on _AAM_). As it happens we were both also born there ourselves and obviously survived. Hope this helps.


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## Sue Ellen

I was born in the old Coombe and don't have any bad memories    My two were born in the new Coombe and I certainly could not fault their care.


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## Guest127

doctor from some private hospital on the radio yesterday  ( could be mount carmel, and the discussion was about taking stem cells at  birth for storage ( to be used later if necessary)and he performed the service free. might be worth considering.


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## adorado

Well, so far nobody has had a bad experience there, which is good!


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## Marie M

If you wish to pay thousands for that bit of extra comfort - go for it. I had 3 in the Coombe, both public and semi-private private and as is the case in all public maternity hospitals, the level of care your baby recieves is not judged on what you have paid.


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## adorado

I'll prefer to pay more if they'll care for me as well. I'm terrified!!!


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## terrysgirl33

Are you terrified of anything in particular?  If so you may be able to get answers to a specific question either from a doctor or some of the mothers on the above mentioned parenting websites!  If it's nothing in particular (or everything in general!), then I can't give you any advice...


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## Marie M

I'd say go for it if you are nervous, I have friends who have had babies there and it is so relaxed and quiet and the staff really baby the mother aswell. In the Coombe it is busier, but I enjoyed the chat and laugh with the nurses and other mothers, and I can't fault the care we got. The visits are different too. If you are private you get a set time where you are seen straight away, which is not the same for public and semi private. Most public and semi private doctors also prefer you to do the combined care scheme where you alternate your visits between the Consultant and you G.P. Also do you live near Mount Carmel?, I wouldn't fancy a long drive up a motor way if I was in Labour.


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## adorado

I have had a good look to the websites. They are very good. 

I presume I am afraid of things like some of my irish friends have experienced:

One was told to "shut up and stop moaning, this is not about you anymore", just before labour; 
another one wanted the epidural for her 2nd baby and they kind of forgot, and then it was too late (she couldn't believe it!!); 
another had to share a room with a woman <snipped by ajapale> who decided to have sex with her partner the night after she had the baby (they didn't seem to mind the other people in the room!!!)...

I just want friendly people around me and good care for me and the baby in a nice environment. I'm planning ahead, so if that costs more, it will be well worth it for me.


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## Marie M

adorado said:


> ; another had to share a room with a traveller that decided to have sex with her partner the night after she had the baby (they didn't seem to mind the other people in the room!!!)...
> .



The service is so good in that hospital,  they were making sure to come back again soon.


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## casiopea

adorado said:


> another one wanted the epidural



Hi Adorado,
Just curious, where are you from?  Its much easier to get an epidural in Ireland than it is in countries like Italy or Holland for example.  I wouldnt have considered Ireland behind on this kind of thing (just opinion!).


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## adorado

I'm not sure about that....It is easy to get an epidural, it's just that some doctors and nurses encourage people not to use it, and I wonder, why should we go through that pain having the technology we have nowadays?

I'm from Spain.


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## Molly

> it's just that some doctors and nurses encourage people not to use it,


 
there are advantages and disadvantages to having an epidural, the jobs of the drs and nurses is to ensure you are fully aware of the pros and cons before deciding upon having an epidural. 



> why should we go through that pain having the technology we have nowadays?


 
a lot or people myself included who have had an epidural, would in hindsight not opt for it again , there are a lot of disadvantages to availing of an epidural.

Another site to checkout is www.magicmum.com.. the pros and cons of having an epidural are extensively covered there.


Good luck with the birth, where ever you may be.


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## casiopea

I lived in Italy for a long time and it is not common to get an epidural.  Certainly 5 years ago you couldnt get it, a good friend of mine is pregnant there right now and has to go through a gynaecologist and can only go to a certain hospital (far from where she lives) to get it, and she's still not certain its going to happen.  A work friend living in holland couldnt get an epidural (this year) either. So Ireland is not behind on this point at all.  I am aware that in Spain childbirth is fairly intensely medicalized but you will have no problem getting an epidural in any hospital here.  No place will force you not to take it.  I have friends who delivered babies in Holles St. and Mnt Carmel, all of them (thankfully) had positive experiences.

By the way, on www.magicmum.com there is an expat-mum forum and there is a spanish mum thread:
[broken link removed]


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## adorado

I hope it doesn't sound like I think there is no epidural available in Ireland and we are behind. I'm not saying that at all. Of course epidural is available. 

I didn't know about Italy and Holland. What can I say? I think its is really bad that they can't get it if they want to!! 

I also know there are pros and cons, but that's like everything. 

Thanks anyway for your comments. At the end of the day I wanted to know if Mount Carmel would be a good place, and it seems like it is, so thank you everybody for taking the time to share your experiences!


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## Guest111

It's a terrible thing to say but here goes...<sniped by ajapale, if its a terrible thing to say (about minorities) then we dont want to heaar about it here thanks, aj>.
The service in Mount Carmel is good but often this hospital seems to be name dropped and worn as a badge by the nouveau riche. Ant complications and the child will be rushed to Holles Street.
Holles Street private is the one to go for...don't let the fact I was born there put you off!


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## casiopea

Andy Doof said:


> Ant complications and the child will be rushed to Holles Street.




Just curious, is this definitely still the case.  I recently said this and was told that it was no longer the case that all necessary infrastructure for childbirth emergency is now in place at mt carmel?


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## adorado

Hahahaha. No, don't worry that won't put me off!!

I hear what you say Andy Doof. I hope people won't mind me next to them either!! There are cultural issues, that is true (and it happens in every country, Irish people are not better or worse).

So, "nuevos ricos" go to Mount Carmel..hummm...I'm not rich, old or new...


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## Guest111

casiopea said:


> Just curious, is this definitely still the case. I recently said this and was told that it was no longer the case that all necessary infrastructure for childbirth emergency is now in place at mt carmel?


 
Could be different now...a friend of ours had her baby there early in the summer of 2005 and it was still the case


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## terrysgirl33

AFAIK (and I am not an expert) it depends on how early the child is born.  Before 32 weeks (which is only 7 months, so it is very early) then the child will have to go to somewhere with very specialised equipment.  However, if a child is born that early anywhere in the country they will still be brought to one of the maternity hospitals, again AFAIK.  If there are other complications and the child is full term, they may be able to deal with it in MC, but the child may have to go to a childrens hospital (again, I know someone who's baby had to go to Crumlin imediately after being born, which was difficult as she was breastfeeding, but mother and baby are doing well).  If the child had been born in HS, or one of the other maternity hospitals, then they would have had to be moved as well.

These stories of complications are rare, with a bit of luck it's something you won't have to deal with!!


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## JohnBoy

what is the cost of mount carmel anyway? we had two kids in London on the NHS with no complaints. i come from a medical family but i would still advise you to consider the public route unless the cost is not a consideration. 

i have to agree with the poster who mentioned the snobbery factor but when you consider what the mount carmel experience costs against, for example, the cost of educating you child privately for a year you may see this in a different light.


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## aman

I had a lot of complications on both my pregnancies & the costs for Mt Carmel were very high (around €15-16k each). The "normal" cost for Mt Carmel is AFAIK €4500 for a private room for birth plus 3 nights stay. You will also have your gynaes fees on top of that (circa €3000).


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## adorado

It is not about who is next to you (although, come on, people having sex after giving birth...that doesn't appeal to me, call me weird if you like...); It's about being looked after, specially if it is the first one, that you are more scared...

Now 15K???? That is far too much and €3000 for the fees???? I might get the ferry home then! What a rip off. 

Like the dentists. I was quoted 6000 to get a tooth done and it costed me 1200 in Spain. How can they justify these prices????

:-(


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## pinkyBear

One thing that must be remembered about all provate hospitals is that outside of hours there is no resident doctor- you do have one on call who will travel.

Having myself worked in public and private healthcare for 10 years I would go public. There are more nursing and medical staff available if an emergancy occurs.

Hollis street have a scheme now where you can if you want (and of course the baby is OK), be discharged after a day and I think for a few weeks after a nurse will come to the house to help you. My sister in law (who might I add could have well afoarded Mt. Carmel ) found this to be great as she had trouble brest feeding and needed the help and encouragement for the few weeks after the pregnancy.


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## adorado

How about down the country, let's say near Kildare? Is there anywhere good around there??


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## pinkyBear

I have met alot of people from Kildare in Holis street (I used to be a nurse).
Does Clane private hospital have a maternity wing??


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## ajapale

pinkyBear said:


> Does Clane private hospital have a maternity wing??


No.

Kildare women go to The Coombe or Holles St or the Rotunda. I know some who have gone to Mt Carmel as well.


Andy Doof 					please keep the discussion civilised and rational and desist from making remarks about minorities.


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## aman

Clane has no maternity facilities although one of the gynaes does sometimes see his patients there for regular check-ups. 

Adorado - the fee of €15k I quoted was for complicated pregnancies which meant I spent almost 2 weeks in Mt Carmel & had a c-section both times. As I said the normal fee is circa €4500. If you have VHI/Bupa etc I think you can claim back about €2900 of that. You can also claim the tax back on any fees not covered by VHI/Bupa etc (including gynaes) at up to 42% - depending on your tax situation of course - so it may not work out too bad for you.

Also with VHI because I needed a section etc most of the fees were covered by them.


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## reds

re: the cost of Mount Carmel, if you have health insurance that will cover a fair chunk of the cost.
In my own opinion, having a baby ranks pretty high on the 'important' things in life. There are couples out there blowing 15, 20 grand on weddings who baulk at the cost of going private for maternity care.
Forget this idea that it's 'snobbery' that leads women to go private. It's seeing my own sister crying on a _camp bed_ in Holles Street and my best friend waiting hours for appointments that's made my mind up!


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## huskerdu

Adorado, 
Its sad that you are terrified and unfortunately, pregnant women only seem to be told horror stories about labour. 
Mt Carmel offers a very good service, as it is a private hospital, but it is very expensive. It will cost you at least 5K to have your baby there. 

The public hospitals in Ireland are over crowded and therefore not everyone gets perfect care. Sad but true.  Lots of women have very positive experiences but some dont. 

I think that labour in Ireland is over medicalised with too much intervention when no necessary, but I really realyl dont want a debate on this.

You really need to talk to a sympathetic GP and talk about the options in irleand, consider having you baby as a semi-private patient, if you cant afford private. In semi-private, you have a team of 4 doctors, so you can get some continuity of care for visits, and one of the doctors will be on, 
during your labour. 

The most important thing is that you learn more about what will happen,
and be able to relax and enjoy your pregnancy,


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## adorado

reds said:


> re: the cost of Mount Carmel, if you have health  It's seeing my own sister crying on a _camp bed_ in Holles Street and my best friend waiting hours for appointments that's made my mind up!


 

So perhaps getting VHI/BUPA and going private won't actually be that much in the end...and as it has been said...it is an important thing, I think it could be worth it paying for that extra attention and confort. 

I am only scared about the labour bit, as I am sure all new mothers were at the time. However, I have a very positive attitude towards the whole thing and I really look forward!! Because I'm not (originally) from here I probably tendt to compare a bit more. 

I may talk to a few midwives I know for some advice too.


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## terrysgirl33

Do you have health insurance already?  If not, you have to be a member for 52 weeks before claiming maternity, worth keeping in mind!  Maternity services are one of the few that are available to all for free, which is worth keeping in mind...


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## adorado

Yes I am aware of the 52 weeks, thanks.


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## ACA

Not 100% sure but I think there's a domino scheme in a hospital in Kildare, (Clane, Sallins, Prosperous - round there somewhere) Sorry to be so vague, my daughter is now 10 and it was all rather a long time ago!! 

One benefit of going to Mt Carmel, (which I considered for my daughter) is that they have a birthing pool and they're very open to non-drug related pain relief - TENs machine, relaxation techniques, hypnotherapy etc. One of the down-sides, as already mentioned is if your baby is prem or you need a section - the cost is phenomenal 

Maxine was born by section in Holles St - semi-private -and I honestly couldn't fault the care that we both received. My son was born in the UK in '88 and was another story! 

Have you done a birth plan yet? I found this great as it helped alleviate the majority of my fears, (almost 10 years between pregnancies). Make friends with your community midwife - mine was present for my section, along with my husband and having familiar faces around helped a lot too.


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## Henny Penny

You pay for everything in Mt. Carmel ... pre natal all blood tests, all ultrasounds etc. This quickly mounts up and is not covered by the VHI. There is no cost for these in a public hospital ... even if you attend as a private patient of a consultant.
IMHO having had my first child in Mt. C and no. 2 in the Coombe, the latter was the better experience ... I felt I was in better, more experienced hands in the Coombe and knew if something did go wrong there were the appropriate staff available to deal with the problem.


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## gills

adorado said:


> It is not about who is next to you (although, come on, people having sex after giving birth...that doesn't appeal to me, call me weird if you like...); It's about being looked after, specially if it is the first one, that you are more scared...
> 
> Now 15K???? That is far too much and €3000 for the fees???? I might get the ferry home then! What a rip off.
> 
> Like the dentists. I was quoted 6000 to get a tooth done and it costed me 1200 in Spain. How can they justify these prices????
> 
> :-(



I think they CAN justify these prices as it is a private hospital. If you cant afford to pay for it or you don't have health insurance then there are three other "public" hospitals you can go to. I personally have health insurance, and will be going to Mount Carmel. as I have no desire to share my personal space with junkies, how'er'ya's, and other undesirables. Its personal choice really..


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## fizzelina

My sister in law had her first baby in Mount Carmel and then her second baby in a public hosp (as semi private patient) and she said honestly she doesn't know why she paid Mt Carmel a fortune when the second baby was delivered in just as good a way, no problems and a great service.


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## ali

I know this is an old thread but I would urge anyone considering mount carmel to look at their c section rates. Nothing short of scandalous. One obstetrician allegedly has a rate of over 90%. None of the hospitals are great in this regard but mount carmel is particularly bad. IMO the whole totally natural process of birth is over medicalised . Ask yourself how many people you know who have had "emergency" caesareans? How many were truly emergencies and how many are actually precautionary or to fit in with a pattern of care?

BTW I delivered my first in the Rotunda (private) and then 3 more in Mount Carmel.

A.


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## liaconn

adorado said:


> I'm looking for somewhere where I will be well looked after. I have been in the maternity hospital a few times visiting friends that have had babies there, and to be honest, I was horrified.
> 
> I'm from another EU country, and have doctors in my family and when they hear some of the stories...or even the drugs they are using here, that are obsoletes there for the last 20 years...I'm quite scared of having a baby in a Public Hospital. I am sure there are also great people and great experiences to tell, but it is the first time and I prefer somewhere more "personal".
> 
> I can't fly to my country when I am heavily pregnant, so I will have to have the baby in Ireland.
> 
> Thanks a lot for your comments.


 
I really don't think this post is helpful to the many people who cannot afford to have their baby in Mt Carmel and is a terrible slur on Irish maternity hospitals.


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## MelF

ali said:


> I know this is an old thread but I would urge anyone considering mount carmel to look at their c section rates. Nothing short of scandalous. One obstetrician allegedly has a rate of over 90%. None of the hospitals are great in this regard but mount carmel is particularly bad. IMO the whole totally natural process of birth is over medicalised . Ask yourself how many people you know who have had "emergency" caesareans? How many were truly emergencies and how many are actually precautionary or to fit in with a pattern of care?
> 
> BTW I delivered my first in the Rotunda (private) and then 3 more in Mount Carmel.
> 
> A.


 
Perhaps this has more to do with the fact that mother's routinely elect to have C-sections over natural birth there, nothing to do with over medicalisation.


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## tod1

I don't really think its where you have the baby but the care you receive. I wanted a particular obestrician who was recommended to me. At the time he worked out of both Mount Carmel and The Coombe private, I could only get an appointment at the Coombe. I took it and never looked back. 

I'm now due my 3rd child in October with the same consultant and he's fantastic , yes his fees are expensive but I don't care I trust his judgement completely and he's worth every penny, in my opinion.


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## kramer2006

ali said:


> I know this is an old thread but I would urge anyone considering mount carmel to look at their c section rates. Nothing short of scandalous. One obstetrician allegedly has a rate of over 90%. None of the hospitals are great in this regard but mount carmel is particularly bad.



As far as I'm aware, Mount Carmel's prevalence of C-sections is higher than the public hospitals, but only by a few percent. Do you have any figures on this, before you panic anyone?

By the way, MC's larger proportion of C-sections is largely due to the *age profile* of it's patients. Think about it...


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## pixiebean22

gills said:


> I think they CAN justify these prices as it is a private hospital. If you cant afford to pay for it or you don't have health insurance then there are three other "public" hospitals you can go to. I personally have health insurance, and will be going to Mount Carmel. as I have no desire to share my personal space with junkies, how'er'ya's, and other undesirables. Its personal choice really..


 
It's not about those around you, it's about the care you and your baby receive.  You could receive rubbish care in mt carmel and be surrounded by snobbery, what use is that if you're left with complications?  My brother, my sister and I were all born in the Coombe as was every one of my mother's 10 siblings and all of my cousins etc were also born in the Coombe and we've all grown up good and healthy and nobody in my family and extended family had a bad experience there, regarding the care given nor the other patients.

I also agree with another poster some of the opinions being cast on here (although I understand this is a very old thread) paints Irish maternity hospitals in such a bad light and people should be very careful about what they are saying.


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## kramer2006

MelF said:


> Perhaps this has more to do with the fact that mother's routinely elect to have C-sections over natural birth there, nothing to do with over medicalisation.



I don't wish to be rude, but you obivously have no idea what you're talking about. No expectant mother (in Mt. Carmel or otherwise) in this country can "elect" to have a section. Our obstetrician in Mt. Carmel explained that there has to be compelling medical reason to perform a section.

(The amount of misinformation on maternity hospitals in this country is staggering...)


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## Towger

Is too posh to push a compelling medical reason or is it just fear of being sued if anything went wrong?


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## kramer2006

Towger said:


> Is too posh to push a compelling medical reason or is it just fear of being sued if anything went wrong?



"too posh to push"??

Amazing the number of working class heroes that come out of the woodwork whenever childcare is being discussed...


----------



## pixiebean22

Agree with Kramer, I know in the UK you can elect to have a c section but I'd be nearly 100% certain (although i'm open to correction) that expectant mothers don't have that option here, no matter how much money you're paying.

Also +1 on this (The amount of misinformation on maternity hospitals in this country is staggering...)


----------



## kramer2006

efm said:


> For what it's worth I have heard that Mount Carmel is very good and that their focus is very much on the mother whereas in other maternity hospitals the focus is on the child (eg Mt Carmel will take a newborn away from a mother for a night to give her a rest



(Just read the whole thread...)

You're *almost *correct.

Mt. Carmel place *just as much* focus on the care of the newborn baby. The only difference (as you've pointed out) is that Mt. Carmel place equal importance on the care of the mother following what can be a painful and stressful experience. I happen to think this is worth paying a little extra for, but when my child was born I found myself having to field numerous snide comments on a regular basis, "too posh to push" being the most common. If you can't afford private care, then don't begrudge someone who can...

I'm also guessing that most of the working class heroes who denounce hospitals like Mount Carmel are the same people who regularly lament the deplorable state of our public health service when one their relations has spent 8 hours queuing in A&E. I wouldn't board my dog in some of the public hospital wards I've been in over the years. Why people think I'd want to subject my wife to a 3-night stay in one following childbirth beggars belief...


----------



## fababby

Maybe if it were her choice....


----------



## MelF

kramer2006 said:


> As far as I'm aware, Mount Carmel's prevalence of C-sections is higher than the public hospitals, but only by a few percent. Do you have any figures on this, before you panic anyone?
> 
> By the way, MC's larger proportion of C-sections is largely due to the *age profile* of it's patients. Think about it...


 
Very valid point.


----------



## MelF

kramer2006 said:


> I don't wish to be rude, but you obivously have no idea what you're talking about. No expectant mother (in Mt. Carmel or otherwise) in this country can "elect" to have a section. Our obstetrician in Mt. Carmel explained that there has to be compelling medical reason to perform a section.
> 
> (The amount of misinformation on maternity hospitals in this country is staggering...)


 
Um, yes I do know what I'm talking about actually as a member of my family did exactly that in Mt Carmel - many of my friends too.


----------



## david11

To me , a Midwive went to school soley to deliver babies were a gyny didnt . Plus there are more babies delivered by midwives than delivered by consultants . just my opinion . good luck with your new arrival .


----------



## david11

Just after reading more of the threads and most people can get there hands on 10k nowadays to pay for a birth so leave the stupid comments out about public and private. Care by a midwive which a majority of are women is far more superior than some hot shot consultant at 40 years of age thinking they are a god because there daddy pulled all the right strings to get them through the system that bit quicker could not possibly even imagine what a woman is feeling like after giving birth . Your points are silly .


----------



## Towger

kramer2006 said:


> "too posh to push"??
> 
> Amazing the number of working class heroes that come out of the woodwork whenever childcare is being discussed...


 
What's the first time I have been called working class  The Dublin 4 must be wearing off in my old age.


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## huskerdu

Its incredible how this topic turns divisive and nasty whenever it is aired. 

Lets summary the situation and get over it. 

Some people can afford to got to a private hospital to have their babies. They get more comfort and more personal attention and better food. Medical outcomes are broadly the same, but the rate of medical intervention is higher in Mt Carmel, ( epidural rates in Mt Carmel for first time mothers is 90%) and they don't have the facilities to cope with some rare very serious medical complications. 

Most of us can't afford Mt Carmel and get on with our lives, happily using the public maternity hospitals. 

Lets all take a deep breath and calm down. Please can one of the moderators call a halt to this, it adds nothing to AAM.


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## mrblues

kramer2006 said:


> I don't wish to be rude, but you obivously have no idea what you're talking about. No expectant mother (in Mt. Carmel or otherwise) in this country can "elect" to have a section.



Incorrect, my wife did 'elect' in 2008 and it was so! She attended a very good obstetrician in a reasonably well know private clinic and had the baby in Mt Carmel


----------



## annR

huskerdu said:


> Its incredible how this topic turns divisive and nasty whenever it is aired.



Like most topics around what women should or shouldn't do . . . . drink while pregnant/don't, caesarian/natural, breastfeeding/bottlefeeding, work/don't work,  . . .I'm sick of it.


----------



## kramer2006

huskerdu said:


> Its incredible how this topic turns divisive and nasty whenever it is aired.



Exactly. I was extremely shocked and sore at the overwhelmingly negative reaction I encountered from some colleagues when I was asked where we were having the baby, who are all intelligent and well-educated people.

If you tell people you are "going private", some of them have no qualms about giving you their uncalled for opinions: "well, my children were delivered in Holles Street (e.g.) and I've only good things to say about them. Mount Carmel's a waste of money etc.".

On the other hand, if I, on hearing that someone was going public offered the same kind of "advice" without being asked: "I wouldn't have my child delivered in The Coombe, the place is a bloody shambles", I'd be *hung out to dry*...

I'm sorry to have offended anyone, but I've seen some truly horrific sights in a couple of the public hospitals over the years and have heard a few horror stories about the public maternity hospitals also. On the other side of the coin, I've NEVER heard anyone give anything but praise to Mount Carmel. Yes, it's expensive, but not that much than going private in say Holles Street or The Coombe.

You hit the nail on the head when you talk about "more comfort and more personal attention and better food". My wife and I happen to think this is money well spent. We wouldn't, for example, spend a huge amount of money on a car that some people would, but we are happy to spend it on a higher standard of healthcare for the new mum. (I have no doubt that Irish *babies *are given the very best of care regardless of which hospital they were born in. Care of the *mother *is another matter...).



MelF said:


> Um, yes I do know what I'm talking about actually as a member of my family did exactly that in Mt Carmel - many of my friends too.





mrblues said:


> Incorrect, my wife did 'elect' in 2008 and it was so! She attended a very good obstetrician in a reasonably well know private clinic and had the baby in Mt Carmel



If your friends/relatives "elected" to have C-sections, fair enough. But, my understanding is that obstetricians are not officially allowed to do this, certainly not on a "first" baby. From my own experience, our obstretrician told us the C-section would only be considered with good reason.

It's also a fact that C-sections are more prevalent in Mount Carmel because Mount Carmel (being a private enterprise) will not take any chances in the event of a difficult birth. *C-sections cost more money*: obstetrician obviously must be present, longer recovery time hence extra nights in hospital. This is why the public hospitals are under orders to avoid C-sections if at all possible.

There also seems to be a view that Mount Carmel is ill-equipped to handle *certain *medical emergencies. This is correct. But it's also a fact (according to a Mount Carmel midwife) that they send no more than 5 babies a year to the neo-natal unit at Holles Street. That's an extremely small percentage of the babies born in Mount Carmel (one of days I was there, six babies had been born that very day!), so you and your baby would have to be extremely unlucky to suffer this fate.

It's true, this topic seems to divide people more than any other. It just galls me to hear the same people who regularly lambast our hospitals (A&E etc.) deride anyone who dares to have their new baby delivered privately. Unfortunately, the begrudgers are everywhere. I know lots of people who have had positive experiences in the public maternity hospitals, but unfortunately, some people are too ready to criticise my healthcare choices.

That's all I have to say. I wish all of you parents and expectant parents well, whatever your choices.


----------



## kramer2006

I just want to add one final comment, for the benefit of any prospective Mount Carmel patients. Our beautiful baby girl was born healthy (thankfully) in a very calm, quiet and supportive atmosphere. The care was quite literally first class. Everything was taken care of for us, allowing us to enjoy this fantastic experience. I'd recommend it to anyone and we'll definitely be going there when we decide to have No. 2.

Best of luck.


----------



## Pat Bateman

...


----------



## Marietta

kramer2006 said:


> I just want to add one final comment, for the benefit of any prospective Mount Carmel patients. Our beautiful baby girl was born healthy (thankfully) in a very calm, quiet and supportive atmosphere. The care was quite literally first class. Everything was taken care of for us, allowing us to enjoy this fantastic experience. I'd recommend it to anyone and we'll definitely be going there when we decide to have No. 2.
> 
> Best of luck.


 

Congradulations on the birth of your beautiful baby girl, I guess at the end of the day it dosen't matter what hospital a baby is born in.  Every nurse, midwife and doctor will do their utmost to safegaurd the health of mother and baby


----------



## MelF

kramer2006 said:


> I just want to add one final comment, for the benefit of any prospective Mount Carmel patients. Our beautiful baby girl was born healthy (thankfully) in a very calm, quiet and supportive atmosphere. The care was quite literally first class. Everything was taken care of for us, allowing us to enjoy this fantastic experience. I'd recommend it to anyone and we'll definitely be going there when we decide to have No. 2.
> 
> Best of luck.


 
Delighted it went well for you and this has been the experience of anyone I know who went there too. I agree that there seems a huge amount of reverse snobbery associated with the place which is very unfair.
To sum it up, one of my closest friends is a midwife in the Coombe and says herself she wouldn't use her own hospital for delivery because of the conveyor belt deliveries (she freely admits that labour is actively managed to speed up the numbers), and the crumbling facilities, and plans to attend Mt Carmel when her time comes.


----------



## kramer2006

Marietta said:


> Congradulations on the birth of your beautiful baby girl, I guess at the end of the day it dosen't matter what hospital a baby is born in.  Every nurse, midwife and doctor will do their utmost to safegaurd the health of mother and baby





MelF said:


> Delighted it went well for you and this has been the experience of anyone I know who went there too. I agree that there seems a huge amount of reverse snobbery associated with the place which is very unfair.
> To sum it up, one of my closest friends is a midwife in the Coombe and says herself she wouldn't use her own hospital for delivery because of the conveyor belt deliveries (she freely admits that labour is actively managed to speed up the numbers), and the crumbling facilities, and plans to attend Mt Carmel when her time comes.



Thanks folks. We're made up.


----------



## kramer2006

Pat Bateman said:


> Mount Carmel is not a maternity hospital and does not have a neonatal care unit.  If there are any complications in relation to the birth, mother and baby will be rushed to a real maternity hospital (e.g. Holles St). Based on the above, I'm amazed that people choose to go to private hospitals like Mount Carmel. If anything goes wrong, it's not the best place to be. Why would a prospective mother (or father) not want to be in the best and safest place possible when their child is born?



Wrong. This is the sort of ignorance that has been alluded to many times in this thread and elsewhere. Pat, you seem to be just passing on hearsay here and perpetuating myths that might give a good hospital a bad name...



Pat Bateman said:


> Mount Carmel is not a maternity hospital



Yes it is. It's not *solely *a maternity hospital. Mount Carmel has delivered, I'm guessing, at least tens of thousands of babies over the years.



Pat Bateman said:


> Mount Carmel ... does not have a neonatal care unit.



Wrong again, Pat. From Mount Carmel's own website:



> The Special Care Baby Unit - also known as the Neonatal Unit
> - It has 6 cots, which are split into three areas of Intensive Care, High Dependency and Special Care
> - Each area is equipped and heated differently in accordance with the medical needs of its babies
> - The Unit cares only for babies with medical problems.


As I (and others) have already pointed out, Mount Carmel is not equipped to deal with a very small number of conditions, which are thankfully a rarity.



Pat Bateman said:


> If there are any complications in relation to the birth, mother and baby will be rushed to a *real *maternity hospital



Pat, I give up. I think you need to do a little research... Maybe start with reading this thread from the beginning....


----------



## Towger

kramer2006 said:


> Wrong. This is the sort of ignorance that has been alluded to many times in this thread and elsewhere. Pat, you seem to be just passing on hearsay here and perpetuating myths that might give a good hospital a bad name...


 
Kramer,
I have been told the exact same as Pat (the rushed to Hollis St. part) said by a doctor who works there.


----------



## pinkyBear

Hi there,

Private hospitals would not have specialists available off call, they do have registrars and the registrars will do a full round before leaving the hospital grounds. 

Public hospitals, have interns and senior house officers available inhouse outside of hours, registrars and consultants are available however they would not be in campus.

The above does not mean private hospitals provide a poorer standars of care, as most of us know the majority of the care is done by the nursing staff.  I would not have an issue attending a private hospital over public, I worked in both over the years..

Where a transfer occurs, and they do, it is because a baby needs specilist care or possible surgery. If I was admitted to tallaght with a head injury I would be transfered to Beaumont Hospital because it specialises in Neurology. Simple as.

Public/Private is a personal choice, Mt. Carmel would not be in operation if there were poor standards and high mortality rates. 

P..


----------



## MelF

Towger said:


> Kramer,
> I have been told the exact same as Pat (the rished to Hollis St. part) said by a doctor who works there.


 
This is correct but ONLY for deliveries before 32 weeks and is the same for any other non-maternity-only-hospitals anywhere in the country. And yes they do have a neonatal unit and one of my friends babies was in it and all went fine.


----------



## MelF

pinkyBear said:


> Hi there,
> 
> Private hospitals would not have specialists available off call, they do have registrars and the registrars will do a full round before leaving the hospital grounds.
> 
> Public hospitals, have interns and senior house officers available inhouse outside of hours, registrars and consultants are available however they would not be in campus.
> 
> The above does not mean private hospitals provide a poorer standars of care, as most of us know the majority of the care is done by the nursing staff. I would not have an issue attending a private hospital over public, I worked in both over the years..
> 
> Where a transfer occurs, and they do, it is because a baby needs specilist care or possible surgery. If I was admitted to tallaght with a head injury I would be transfered to Beaumont Hospital because it specialises in Neurology. Simple as.
> 
> Public/Private is a personal choice, Mt. Carmel would not be in operation if there were poor standards and high mortality rates.
> 
> P..


 
Excellent post.


----------



## kramer2006

Towger said:


> Kramer,
> I have been told the exact same as Pat (the rushed to Hollis St. part) said by a doctor who works there.



Hi Towger. Will you clarify what this doctor told you? He apparently told you that:



Pat Bateman said:


> Mount Carmel is not a maternity hospital and does not have a neonatal care unit. If there are any complications in relation to the birth, mother and baby will be rushed to a real maternity hospital (e.g. Holles St).



???

Pat Bateman is implying that if there are *ANY* complications then the baby will be shipped out of Mount Carmel. It is highly irresponsible to suggest this and might panic any expectant parents reading this guff...


----------



## kramer2006

MelF said:


> Excellent post.



Agreed. PinkyBear has given us some facts in her post, and not the kind of  "tittle-tattle" that Pat Bateman decided would be worth passing on....


----------



## MrEBear

Hi, my sister had he baby in the Rotunda two weeks ago after being diagnosed with the extremely rare HELP syndrome. This codition is one of the hardest to diagnose as it's symptoms are similar to those that can regularly occur during pregnancy. After delivering the baby 5 weeks premature by emergancey CS the doctors managed to save the lives of both mother and child. For this reason alone I would recommend the Rotunda as the staff took great care of them both and had the skills and Knowledge needed when things turned bad.

Hope this helps and best of luck with the baby


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## pinkyBear

Hi there, the rotunda and hollis street are both excellent hospitals. There is a preconception that public hospitals provide a poorer service than private hospitals. That's not true at all, the problem with the public system is not the hospital as such but getting access to the hospital service.


----------



## Mpsox

Been to the Coombe twice, and whilst I can't fault the medical care or staff, we were left with the impression of a cold clinical soulless factory and their emergency waiting room has to be one of the most unwelcoming you can find. 

One thing you should consider when choosing is what your potential route could be and the traffic, especially in rush hour. Strange as it may sound, when we had Number 1, we were living in Naas and it was quicker to get to Kilkenny then to get to Hollis Street or the Coombe during rush hour. We had the little un in Kilkenny and by and large couldn't fault them. Mrs Sox had a difficult 18 hours of it and even though we were public, the consultant who was there at the start, came in from home at the end (when there were issues), even though there was another doctor there as well. 

I have heard (and I don't know if this is true) that Mount Carmel will not deal with premature births prior to 30 weeks, that might be worth checking out, just in case. Other thing to bear in mind is if the medical care is more or less the same, (and for most things it will be), is it worth paying a few thousand euro for more certainty around appointements and a private room for the couple of days you will actually be in there? I remain to be convinced that it is.


----------



## kramer2006

Mpsox said:


> ... if the medical care is more or less the same, (and for most things it will be), is it worth paying a few thousand euro for more certainty around appointements....?



It has a great deal of value if you're juggling maternity/paternity with a busy career. It is perfectly possible to combine both. Going private allows you to do this more easily.



Mpsox said:


> ... and a private room for the couple of days you will actually be in there?



That all depends on the person. My wife certainly valued having her own room for 3 nights and the "peace and quiet" following the birth. 

There are other factors in choosing private over public. I'll give you some of our reasons:



location - the private hospital in question might simply be "handier" for some people.
we got many recommendations for our obstetrician who practices at MC, and who also delivered some of my sibling's babies
great support for breast-feeding - dedicated lactation nurse, advice on-demand and no waiting around
nurses on-call - we were never waiting long than 30 seconds for a nurse (for pain relief etc.)
no queues - if you're the type of person who enjoys waiting hours on end to see a doctor/nurse, have at it...
seeing the same consultant every time in the leadup to the birth is hugely reassuring to a first-time mother. My wife built up a relationship with our consultant during her pregnancy and was hugely reassured by him/her attending the birth.
flexible visiting hours - I could visit my wife at any time during the day, and for as long as I wanted. This meant I got to spend plenty of time with our newborn during the first 3 days of her life. You can also specify "no visitors", which the nurses will take care of on your behalf.
the calm atmosphere I alluded to earlier
6 weeks aftercare - including a 24-hour telephone advice service (manned by the very nurses who took care of our baby while she was in hospital) and access to their clinic.


----------



## Mpsox

kramer2006 said:


> There are other factors in choosing private over public. I'll give you some of our reasons:
> 
> 
> 
> location - the private hospital in question might simply be "handier" for some people.
> we got many recommendations for our obstetrician who practices at MC, and who also delivered some of my sibling's babies
> great support for breast-feeding - dedicated lactation nurse, advice on-demand and no waiting around
> nurses on-call - we were never waiting long than 30 seconds for a nurse (for pain relief etc.)
> no queues - if you're the type of person who enjoys waiting hours on end to see a doctor/nurse, have at it...
> seeing the same consultant every time in the leadup to the birth is hugely reassuring to a first-time mother. My wife built up a relationship with our consultant during her pregnancy and was hugely reassured by him/her attending the birth.
> flexible visiting hours - I could visit my wife at any time during the day, and for as long as I wanted. This meant I got to spend plenty of time with our newborn during the first 3 days of her life. You can also specify "no visitors", which the nurses will take care of on your behalf.
> the calm atmosphere I alluded to earlier
> 6 weeks aftercare - including a 24-hour telephone advice service (manned by the very nurses who took care of our baby while she was in hospital) and access to their clinic.


 
Absolutely agree on location, it's crucial, last thing you need is to be stuck in traffic trying to get there. We found a country hospital to be much calmer then the city equivalents and there were no restrictions on visiting by myself either. Queues for scans etc weren't too bad, we were given a time and I don't think we were ever more then 30 minute delayed in there. 

I'd be a bit wary on a recommendation from a doctor who also happens to work there though. He's hardly likely to say it's rubbish.


----------



## kramer2006

pinkyBear said:


> Hi there, the rotunda and hollis street are both excellent hospitals. There is a preconception that *public hospitals provide a poorer service *than private hospitals. That's not true at all, *the problem with the public system is not the hospital as such but getting access* to the hospital service.



With respect, pinkyBear, you're just playing with words there. Being unable to gain access to the hospital's services itself *means *poor service.

(that sounds like the kind of excuse Mary Harney has been attempting to dupe the public with over the last few years...... sorry.)


----------



## kramer2006

Mpsox said:


> Absolutely agree on location, it's crucial, last thing you need is to be stuck in traffic trying to get there.



Definitely. Important for subsequent pregnancies if the mother has a "fast" labour on her first. I know several women who are.


----------



## Pat Bateman

...


----------



## Brighid

+ 1Pat and I speak as a former midwife with 100 + years experience!!


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## MelF

Pat Bateman said:


> Some people seem to wear Mount Carmel like a Gucci bag draped over their shoulder...others who do a bit of research and speak with the experts ensure that they attend a maternity hospital which has the facilities to deliver the best possible care to both mother and baby regardless of the circumstances.
> 
> It's simple really. Ask any doctor whether Mount Carmel or Holles Street is the better option and they'll ALL opt for the latter.
> 
> Choosing a maternity hospital shouldn't be about impressing the ladies over coffee up in Dundrum Shopping Centre...it should be about obtaining the best possible care for both mother and baby.


 
Oh man, this is such your typical blinkered Irish begrudgers' opinion and paying no heed to any of the facts that were put forward in this thread. If Mt Carmel wasn't a private hospital would you still have such a problem with it?


----------



## Pat Bateman

...


----------



## ice

At the end of the day experiences vary greatly from person to person.
I know 4 ladies who attended Mount Carmel and loved it and the same number who hated it.

It can depend on so many factors.... if you have complicaitons, how busy the hospital is on the night you give birth, if your consultant is on holiday, whether or not you happen to get the nicest or the grumpiest midwife present at the birth, how long you  have to stay in hospital after the birth etc etc

My kids were born at Holles Street using the domino scheme. A team of highly experienced midwives. I never had to wait for appointments and found the care to be excellent. It did not cost me anything and I would highly recommend this service (although it is only open to certain postcodes). 

I think a mid wife led brith (assuming you are low risk) is the way to to


----------



## Kitten

Hi.

Had my first 2 sons in Mount Carmel.  My 2nd son developed an infection after 6 hours and due to not having proper facilities to ventilate we nearly lost him.  We had to wait overnight for a transfer to Holles St and he spent 3 weeks fighting for his life.  He had to have blood tranfusions, his lungs collapsed, he got a very bad stomach infection & pneumonia.  It was hell.  Had we been in Holles St, the Coombe or the Rotunda he would have immediately been transferred to a special care unit and he would never been as close to death as he was.  Thank God he pulled through but I still have it on my concious that I was more concerned with my comfort than his safety.  My 3rd and 4th sons were born in fully equipped maternity hospitals.
Hope this helps your decision. I don't mean to upset but I'm as good an example as you'll get.

Kitten


----------



## kramer2006

Pat Bateman said:


> Some people seem to wear Mount Carmel like a Gucci bag draped over their shoulder





Pat Bateman said:


> Choosing a maternity hospital shouldn't be about impressing the ladies over coffee up in Dundrum Shopping Centre



Always back to the "snob" element... Most people who go to Mount Carmel don't think like this. No-one I know who attended MC went there "to be seen". You seem to be rather focused on the "snob" aspect of private maternity care. Would you say you have a chip on your shoulder about the whole thing? (don't be embarrassed, you're not the only one.)


----------



## David_Dublin

Kitten's post really settles this - I'm sure you'd place more importance on the health of your child than your own comfort.

I'm not in medicine, nor do I have relatives that are doctors, but I do find it objectionable when foreigners deride medical practices or medication used here, or suggest that the medicine is better at home. When in fact they know precious little about what they are talking about - their brother heard that something is used, or their aunt knows of a hospital that is still doing..etc etc.

The fact is that we use some things that are not yet being used in other countries, and we use other things that other countries used to use and no longer do.

You also have to take into account that there tends to be fairly strong medical culture that differ between different countries. for example, in some countries anti-biotics are overly relied on or prescribed, in other countries they'll give you a suppository for pretty much anything. 

But you can be certain that whatever medications or proecedures are prescribed, they do the same job, and that they are not discredited or dangerous or anything. 

Just because something still being done in one country and is not being done in another country does not mean that one is more safe or more affective or better. It could be that it is cheaper, or owned/developed in that country, or any number of other reasons. People should stick to facts. Ireland's health system is far from perfect, but you can be sure in our litigeous culture, that it is highly unlikely that medicines that are outdated are being prescribed, or that procedures are being used that have been discredited.


----------



## kramer2006

Pat Bateman said:


> Some people seem to wear Mount Carmel like a Gucci bag draped over their shoulder...others who do a bit of research and speak with the experts ensure that they attend a maternity hospital which has the facilities to deliver the best possible care to both mother and baby regardless of the circumstances.
> 
> It's simple really.  Ask any doctor whether Mount Carmel or Holles Street is the better option and they'll ALL opt for the latter.
> 
> Choosing a maternity hospital shouldn't be about impressing the ladies over coffee up in Dundrum Shopping Centre...it should be about obtaining the best possible care for both mother and baby.





MelF said:


> Oh man, this is such your typical blinkered Irish begrudgers' opinion and paying no heed to any of the facts that were put forward in this thread. If Mt Carmel wasn't a private hospital would you still have such a problem with it?



Pat has his mind made up. He hasn't even read any of the arguments in this thread, or listened to anyone's reasons for attending Mount Carmel.

Tell me Pat, have you ever attended an A&E department in Dublin, or another city?


----------



## David_Dublin

kramer2006 said:


> Always back to the "snob" element... Most people who go to Mount Carmel don't think like this. No-one I know who attended MC went there "to be seen". You seem to be rather focused on the "snob" aspect of private maternity care. Would you say you have a chip on your shoulder about the whole thing? (don't be embarrassed, you're not the only one.)


But why go to Mount Carmel then? If they cannot care for sick babies as well as the maternity hospitals, why put your own comfort ahead of the potential safety of your newborn? I think you have misplaced the emotion here, it is not snobbery, it is probably more complete bewilderment that people make the decision. The fact that it costs more only intensifies this bewilderment: what (or who) are people thinking of?


----------



## kramer2006

Pat Bateman said:


> I'm certainly not a begrudger





Pat Bateman said:


> *it was good enough for me after all.*



The mantra of the begrudger....


----------



## kramer2006

Pat Bateman said:


> Then I actually got sense and did some research.



Well don't apply for that PhD course just yet. Your extensive *research *led you to believe that Mount Carmel doesn't even have a neo-natal unit...


----------



## di74

Interesting thread.
Here's my experience. Had my first child private in the Coombe 2 years ago and going there again shortly for the next one. When I initially went to my GP she requested that I not consider Mount Carmel (which i was doing ) as it doesn't have the special baby care facilities of other hospitals (Holles St, Rotunda, Coombe) and it is not uncommon for babies to have to be transferred. My friend had her twins in Mount Carmel a short while back and one of them had to be transferred to the Rotunda, leaving mother and second child in Mount Carmel.....they do not have the special care facilities of other hospitals (certainly not as many cots). I do know plenty of women that have had wonderful experiences in Mount Carmel, but as anything can happen during childbirth and afterwards I know where I want to be when my baby is born.


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## fizzelina

David_Dublin said:


> But why go to Mount Carmel then? If they cannot care for sick babies as well as the maternity hospitals, why put your own comfort ahead of the potential safety of your newborn? I think you have misplaced the emotion here, it is not snobbery, it is probably more complete bewilderment that people make the decision. The fact that it costs more only intensifies this bewilderment: what (or who) are people thinking of?


 
David Dublin is making good posts, particularly when he says Kitten's post should settle this ridiculous debate, surely it is a medical threadand should be closed. It is becoming a tit for tat with Kramer attacking those who make a post ("Don't apply for the PHD just yet".....come on Kramer what sort of comment is that?) Personally I think each to their own on where to give birth but Kramer don't come on to a public forum if you have such a major problem with the views given. Re-read Kitten's post - her baby could not be cared for in MC and was moved to Holles St. For many of us it's not a question of money or public / private it's a question of bewilderment like David rightly points out - why pay for the worry of hoping your baby doesn't get sick as it could need to be moved........even if the % is small lots of us would not take the chance. And we certainly would not pay dearly to take a chance like that.


----------



## kramer2006

fizzelina said:


> It is becoming a tit for tat with Kramer attacking those who make a post ("Don't apply for the PHD just yet".....come on Kramer what sort of comment is that?) Personally I think each to their own on where to give birth but Kramer don't come on to a public forum if you have such a major problem with the views given.



Have you even read my posts??

I've simply given *my/our *reasons for choosing Mount Carmel.

I've also pointed out when people have contributed information which is plain *wrong*. 

I have no problem with people airing their "views" - this is after all, a discussion forum. I never disputed the fact that MC does not have the full complement of maternity services that are available in the public maternity hospitals. What I object to, and have pointed out over and over again is people printing "tittle-tattle" on this thread. I think people should have FACTS, and not some of the rubbish that has been stated here.

I have also asked the question several times: why do people who are opposed to MC always harp on about "snobbery", as if that's the only reason some people choose private maternity care..?


----------



## kramer2006

David_Dublin said:


> But why go to Mount Carmel then? If they cannot care for sick babies as well as the maternity hospitals, why put your own comfort ahead of the potential safety of your newborn? I think you have misplaced the emotion here, it is not snobbery, it is probably more complete bewilderment that people make the decision. The fact that it costs more only intensifies this bewilderment: what (or who) are people thinking of?



I've already given my view on this...

My priority is the baby *and *the mother. As I and other posters have already pointed out, the chances of anyone's baby being "moved" from MC is miniscule...

I think I'll be bowing out of this thread now, people here are hearing only what they want to hear. Good luck.


----------



## David_Dublin

@Kramer2006@: That's the nature of posting I find, especially on topics as emotive as this! I have just taken the time to read your posts and can totally see your side of things. Not for me, or for everyone, but can appreciate that you want to avoid the public wards which can be very difficult to bear when having just given birth, not to mention to enjoy your new arrival and share moments with those close to you afterwards. For those who cannot afford this, and perhaps would like to be in such peacefulness & luxury, I can imagine some jealousy might fuel posts. Good luck with the little one, it's a great time.


----------



## kramer2006

David_Dublin said:


> @Kramer2006@: That's the nature of posting I find, especially on topics as emotive as this! I have just taken the time to read your posts and can totally see your side of things. Not for me, or for everyone, but can appreciate that you want to avoid the public wards which can be very difficult to bear when having just given birth, not to mention to enjoy your new arrival and share moments with those close to you afterwards. For those who cannot afford this, and perhaps would like to be in such peacefulness & luxury, I can imagine some jealousy might fuel posts. Good luck with the little one, it's a great time.



Thank you for those words David. I really do respect anyone's choices on where they want to have their babies, but I find it hard to understand the disapproval and (barely disguised) inverted snobbery that's frequently meted out to those of us who choose to go private.

I'm far from loaded, but people have made a lot of assumptions about my wealth - there have been too many mentions of Gucci handbags and the like... It's plain idiocy...

I also completely understand why most people would want to have the full range of emergency services available at their baby's birth, I really do. I guess I've had very good experiences with MC as all of my siblings children were also born there. I know how reassured and well looked after new mothers are at Mount Carmel, and that's what I want for my wife too.

It certainly is an emotive topic - we couldn't quite believe how emotive it was until we found ourselves having to make that choice. I can cope with anyone choosing public hospital, having studied all the facts. What infuriates me is people printing plain *garbage *(like the neo-natal unit comment above) which only serves to confuse and scare expectant parents who are terrified enough as it is. It's stupid and plain dangerous. It strikes a chord with me because I remember how terrified we were when we made our decision and remember how much conflicting information we found on t'internet. In the end, we did the sensible thing: we took the advice of our families and close friends, trusted our own judgement, and we never looked back.


----------



## Pat Bateman

...


----------



## kramer2006

Pat Bateman said:


> Kramer2006, your posts have been aggressive, ignorant and insulting.
> 
> It's futile trying to discuss this topic in a rational manner with you.



Pat, I was not being "aggressive" or "insulting". I was simply pointing out that you were fueling *myths* regarding private maternity care at Mount Carmel. You need to get some facts right before you offer your opinions. If you can't handle someone disagreeing with you, or pointing out when you've posted erroneous information, perhaps a public message board isn't the best place for you.


----------



## David_Dublin

I'm with Kramer on this. I looked back at his posts before my last post to read his views and I dont see any aggressive or insulting content. Aggression has been in posts on this thread, but not from him. 

As for ignorance, he's been dealing in facts, which aid rational debate. I'm not sure that the accusation of having contributed ingnorant posts, or an inability of contucting a rational discussion is pointed in the right direction to be honest.


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## pinkyBear

Guys, would you mind sticking to the original debate! Please. 

Look if someone can afford to have a baby in MC, is that not their choice? The reality is MC is no different than most private hospitals that deal with elective (or scheduled) patients, they dont have full emergency support. 

If a mother does decide to have her children in MC, and wear it as a badge, is that your concern??? 

P..


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## z107

> Look if someone can afford to have a baby in MC, is that not their choice?


Indeed. If someone wants to buy a new car, for example, that's their choice too.

I'd rather spend my money on private health care, and drive an old banger. Does this make me a snob?


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## kramer2006

pinkyBear said:


> If a mother does decide to have her children in MC, and wear it as a badge, is that your concern???



My problem is that a lot of people on this thread can't get past the "badge" idea, assuming that everyone who attends MC does so for that reason. That idea is judgemental and idiotic. I don't give a toss who knows where we had our baby, and I never volounteered this information unless asked.



Pat Bateman said:


> Argument over.



 The argument is far from over. Kitten and her baby were extremely unlucky to have to be transferred to Holles Street. People are transferred between hospitals all the time, e.g. cardiac patients can be transferred from Loughlinstown to Vincent's because they have specialised facilities there.

Just because one person's baby had to be transferred doesn't make Holles Street (for example) any more attractive to me. I don't want my wife to have to share a cubicle with a stranger while giving birth to our child. Is that so strange??


----------



## pinkyBear

> I don't want my wife to have to share a cubicle with a stranger while giving birth to our child. Is that so strange??


 
Hi there, typically women don't share cubicles when they are giving birth. From what I recall, women gave birth in seperate rooms, there would be infection control reasons for this aswell, as well as comfort and privacy.  It could be different now, as it is a while since I worked in Hollis St. or the Rotunda, however I'll know soon enough as I'll be with my sister in Hollis St. as she is due soon  

However even with private cover, you could be sharing a room with other women post giving birth. If there is a private room available a mother will get the room if she is covered.


----------



## kramer2006

pinkyBear said:


> Hi there, typically women don't share cubicles when they are giving birth. From what I recall, women gave birth in seperate rooms, there would be infection control reasons for this aswell, as well as comfort and privacy.  It could be different now, as it is a while since I worked in Hollis St. or the Rotunda, however I'll know soon enough as I'll be with my sister in Hollis St. as she is due soon
> 
> However even with private cover, you could be sharing a room with other women post giving birth. If there is a private room available a mother will get the room if she is covered.



Sharing a room after the birth wouldn't have bothered my wife, but sharing a cubicle in the delivery room would, which I've heard happens occasionally. (I'm open to correction on this).

I think people should also consider the baby boom that is happening at the moment, not to mention the downturn in the economy. I'd imagine the public maternity hospitals are pretty stretched right now, and will probably get worse.

We were lucky to get a private room from the start - typically you don't get a private room on your first night in MC, but often do on subsequent nights.


----------



## shaking

I've being reading this post with interest, we're having our baby (first) in Mt Carmel. It wasn't a decision made lightly but one based on family and friends recommendations and location amongst other things.  

A number of my friends are also pregnant and going to the Coombe or Holles St. I have never and would never judge or comment on their decision, all the maternity hospitals in Dublin operate for a reason.  If they were unsafe or couldn't provide the necessary care they wouldn't be in operation.

Far from wearing MC like a badge, I *hate *telling people what hospital I'm going to as they automatically form an opinion of me.  I generally try to avoid all conversations about where I'm attending.

If I thought my baby would receive sub standard care there's no way in the world I would attend MC.  As far as I and my research can tell going private in any of the hospitals is much the same.  I have chosen MC as it suits me best.  

It's quite upsetting to read posts where people assume I'm going to MC so I can boast about if over coffee in Dundrum.  That's another huge assumption; I'm not one for whiling away the hours in coffee shops I'm too busy working.

Please think before you post about people who may be reading this and the affect your posts could have on them.  There's nothing wrong with posting facts but saying that people are putting labels before their childs health is very unfair.


----------



## kramer2006

shaking said:


> Far from wearing MC like a badge, I *hate *telling people what hospital I'm going to as they automatically form an opinion of me.  I generally try to avoid all conversations about where I'm attending.
> 
> It's quite upsetting to read posts where people assume I'm going to MC so I can boast about if over coffee in Dundrum.  That's another huge assumption.



My experience in a nutshell. Excellent post, shaking.

As I've already said, if someone told me they were "going public" and I turned my nose up at *them*, I'd be read the riot act. And quite right too. It's a complete double-standard and further reinforces my belief that it's some sort of inverted snobbery.


----------



## csirl

pinkyBear said:


> Hi there, typically women don't share cubicles when they are giving birth. From what I recall, women gave birth in seperate rooms, there would be infection control reasons for this aswell, as well as comfort and privacy. It could be different now, as it is a while since I worked in Hollis St. or the Rotunda, however I'll know soon enough as I'll be with my sister in Hollis St. as she is due soon
> 
> However even with private cover, you could be sharing a room with other women post giving birth. If there is a private room available a mother will get the room if she is covered.


 
My wife gave birth in Holles Street earlier this year and in the past. Women dont share cubicles, whether public or private, when they are giving birth. 

Most of the "public" maternity hospitals also have private wings and offer full private care with similar luxuries to MC etc. though, these services appear to be more in demand, so sometimes they are fully booked up.  

My wife has always gone private, but not because of the luxuries - while they are nice, the important thing is that the baby is ok. The main reason to go private is because you have your own consultant, who has monitored the pregnancy from early stages and will be present at delivery. With one of my wifes birth, we did have a situation whereby the familiarity of the consultant with the particular pregnancy was the difference between a successful delivery and potential complications, so for us it has been worth it.


----------



## Pat Bateman

...


----------



## hippy1975

Hi all, as someone who has been trying to conceive for over 4 years I had to post, this is not something you can resolve as it is a personal decision for everyone and whatever they decide, you may not agree with them but let them at it. At the end of the day it doesn't matter, ALL that matters is that mother and baby (and father, sorry!) are okay and the rest is just a bonus. And no hospital is an absolute guarantee of safety just like the absence of one is not guarantee of a disaster ( my brother was born in the car!)


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## niceoneted

Ok first off I've never given birth. 
I have 3 older sisters who have shared their entire birthing experiences with me - I have been close by in some of the instances ie in the hospital at the time. 
Combination has been 1 private Ire ,I public Ire, and 1 public system UK which it appears to me to be the case for everyone there. 
All had difficult experiences, worst being sister in UK. Of the two sisters in Ireland that went public and private they got the same care during labour and birth, only difference was how many they had to share with after. Sister who went private said she would have liked semi private as she thought private was isolating especially on first birth. 
Interesting piece on the Hook show today about child birth/costs etc.Pointed out that you can go private and your consultant can be off or on hols when you are due and you revert back to public. 

Spoke with other friends recently and one reckoned that all women should have c sections.


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## Marietta

niceoneted said:


> Spoke with other friends recently and one reckoned that all women should have c sections.


 


For the sake of a few hours pushing why on earth would they put themselves throught the ordeal of a C Section and recovery taking weeks afterwards.  'Too posh to Push indeed' !!!

I read an article once from a medical journal that the birthing process is very good for a baby because the stress of the birth prepares them very well for life outside of the womb. 

I had my babies in the UK 3 public and one private and I can honestly say the care was first class in both environments.


----------



## niceoneted

That friend was in labour for more than a day.She maintains that all labours are so different that no one should decide what to do but the parents within the circumstances yoru in. I don't believe it is a case of too posh to push.


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## Kitten

"If I thought my baby would receive sub standard care there's no way in the world I would attend MC."  


I'm not sure you read my post earlier. As the priest in Mount Carmel was baptising my son, the transfer team arrived to take him to Holles St.  He was dying, not just sick, dying. I discharged myself a few hours later as I could not bear not to be with him. None of this would have happened if he was born in a fully equipped maternity hospital.

Make your choices but don't dismiss reality.  Mount Carmel is NOT equipped to deal with sick babies.


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## pinkyBear

Pat Bateman said:


> In the above scenario you've cited, given the choice, why would the cardiac patient CHOOSE to go to Loughlinstown rather than Vincent's?
> 
> Some people "judge" mothers who choose certain private hospitals because they're not basing their choice of hospital on the quality of care they'll receive. Their decision HAS to be based on other less important factors (e.g. being guaranteed their own room, the quality of the food OR snobbery).
> 
> (Note my use of the word "OR" - Snobbery MAY be a factor with certain people.)


 
Pat you are quite good at posting comments regarding our health system without really understanding the nature of how things work. In Ireland most of our major public hospitals are specialist hospitals, for example the Mater is Cardiac, James has a burns unit, Beaumont is neurology.

In an emergency, or in certain elective cases, people have to attend their local hospital and are then transfered if required to the speciaist hospital, when a bed is available.

In Ireland, most consultants who have private beds, have public beds too. If a consultant has a high risk patient who is going for certain proceedures, the consultant can get the patient in to either private or public hospitals.

This is important, because a consultant knows an expectant mother's medical history and can advise the mother to go private in a public hospital. This is not in any way a reflection on MC at all. MC, is no different than the Bons Secours (my personal favorite of all private hospitals) , in that the hospital soley caters for elective admissions, emergencies do not often occur, and when they do the patient can quicly be transfered to a specialist hospital...


----------



## David_Dublin

Pat Bateman said:


> In the above scenario you've cited, given the choice, why would the cardiac patient CHOOSE to go to Loughlinstown rather than Vincent's?



the mind boggles why someone would post this. As pinkybear pointed out, you dont seem to understand how things work - Did you hear the one about the fella who collapsed, and the ambulanceman tried to resusitate him to ask him which hospital he'd like to go to.....no, I thought not.

For non emergency procedures people choose hospitals that have the capability to do whatever it is people want done. MC deliver babies. End of story.


----------



## kramer2006

Kitten said:


> I'm not sure you read my post earlier. As the priest in Mount Carmel was baptising my son, the transfer team arrived to take him to Holles St.  He was dying, not just sick, dying. I discharged myself a few hours later as I could not bear not to be with him. None of this would have happened if he was born in a fully equipped maternity hospital.
> 
> Make your choices but don't dismiss reality.  Mount Carmel is NOT equipped to deal with sick babies.



I'm not sure you're reading the above posts carefully either. I'm very sorry that your family was put through such an ordeal, and I'm very glad he recovered, but what happened to you is a very rare occurrence and will not happen to (probably) 99% of the population.

As PinkyBear has already stated, people are transferred between hospitals all the time, depending on their specialities.

Mount Carmel *is *equipped to deal with sick babies, it's a hospital for God's sake... It just wasn't equipped to deal with the particular illness *your *child had. You shouldn't make flip remarks like this.


----------



## kramer2006

Pat Bateman said:


> *Some *people "judge" mothers



*Some *people contributing to this thread, perhaps?



Pat Bateman said:


> Some people "judge" mothers who choose certain private hospitals because they're not basing their choice of hospital on the quality of care they'll receive.



That's a ridiculous statement. We chose MC for exactly that reason - for the excellent quality of care.



Pat Bateman said:


> Their decision HAS to be based on other less important factors (e.g. being guaranteed their own room, the quality of the food OR snobbery).



Issues like privacy and quality food are obviously not important to you, but they are important to others. Who are you to say what should be important to an expectant mother?



Pat Bateman said:


> Snobbery MAY be a factor with certain people.)



As I've already pointed out, you seem to be nothing short of obsessed with the "snobbery" factor. I've no doubt those people exist, but they're idiots and are in a thankfully tiny minority.

I have to say Pat, I find it strange that you accused me of being aggressive, yet you think nothing of making disparaging remarks like this:



Pat Bateman said:


> Some people seem to wear Mount Carmel like a Gucci bag draped over their shoulder





Pat Bateman said:


> Choosing a maternity hospital shouldn't be about impressing the ladies over coffee up in Dundrum Shopping Centre





Pat Bateman said:


> From what I can see Mount Carmel seems to be worn like a badge by certain people.


----------



## pinkyBear

Hi there,
Essentially this debate (to me) is would you go to a private hospital over a public hospital. My preference is private.

In general, higher nurse to patient ratios in a private hospital (the ones I have worked in anyway), greater access to consultant services. Quicker turn around in terms of bloods, xrays mri scans, physio etc. In general the private hospitals I have worked in are cleaner as well. 

So I would choose private, not just because of the food and decour.


----------



## Complainer

My wife spent 20 nights in Holles St before over 3-4 different stretches during her first pregnancy (prior to birth). A good few of her fellow inmates were Mt Carmel patients (often those carrying twins) who had been handed over to Holles St as their cases were too risky for Mt Carmel to handle.


----------



## kramer2006

Complainer said:


> My wife spent 20 nights in Holles St before over 3-4 different stretches during her first pregnancy (prior to birth). A good few of her fellow inmates were Mt Carmel patients (often those carrying twins) who had been handed over to Holles St as their cases were too risky for Mt Carmel to handle.



Hmm. I'd be very surprised if MC were not able to handle the delivery of twins.


----------



## fizzelina

kramer2006 said:


> Mount Carmel *is *equipped to deal with sick babies, it's a hospital for God's sake... It just wasn't equipped to deal with the particular illness *your *child had. You shouldn't make flip remarks like this.


 
Kitten is sharing an actual experience, not making some flip remark. I really respect her honestly and I think it was an awful shock for her to get with her newborn. If that baby had been born in Holles St maybe things would have been alot different and less serious, that's her opinion and she's entitled to it.

Kramer and Pat - you clearly don't like each other's posts - accept it and move on. Kramer, your post just giving quotes of all Pat's comments doesn't really add anything. We're all very clear from what you posted before of what you think of Pat's comments. You're both adults, move on.


----------



## fizzelina

kramer2006 said:


> Hmm. I'd be very surprised if MC were not able to handle the delivery of twins.


 
Yet another personal experience that you are doubting? If the poster says it happened then who are you to question what they posted?


----------



## Complainer

kramer2006 said:


> Hmm. I'd be very surprised if MC were not able to handle the delivery of twins.


I didn't say that they can't handle the delivery of twins. I stated that quite a few of the cases that they couldn't handle were twins.

The pen is red. This does not mean that ALL pens are red.


----------



## kramer2006

fizzelina said:


> Kitten is sharing an actual experience, not making some flip remark. I really respect her honestly and I think it was an awful shock for her to get with her newborn. If that baby had been born in Holles St maybe things would have been alot different and less serious, that's her opinion and she's entitled to it.



I was pointing out that this is just one (thankfully rare) incident and that I would not base one's maternity care plans on hearing one person's bad experience at MC. Kitten is entitled to her opinion, as I'm entitled to mine.



fizzelina said:


> Kramer and Pat - you clearly don't like each other's posts - accept it and move on. Kramer, your post just giving quotes of all Pat's comments doesn't really add anything. We're all very clear from what you posted before of what you think of Pat's comments. You're both adults, move on.



Well thank you for pointing that out. As long as Pat continues to imply that most people attend MC in order to display their vast wealth, I'll continue to refute that. This is a discussion forum, after all.

If you don't feel my posts are adding anything to this discussion, then feel free to ignore them, instead of wagging your finger.


----------



## IsleOfMan

David_Dublin said:


> the mind boggles why someone would post this. As pinkybear pointed out, you dont seem to understand how things work - Did you hear the one about the fella who collapsed, and the ambulanceman tried to resusitate him to ask him which hospital he'd like to go to.....no, I thought not.
> 
> For non emergency procedures people choose hospitals that have the capability to do whatever it is people want done. MC deliver babies. End of story.


 
And you were slagging off Grizzly for his post about carpets? Wasting bytes and all that.....


----------



## kramer2006

Complainer said:


> I didn't say that they can't handle the delivery of twins. I stated that quite a few of the cases that they couldn't handle were twins.



Your post gave no details about *why *these women were transferred from MC, only that some of them happened to be expecting twins. 

Is the fact that they were twins pertinent to the story at all? Some people might interpret your post as having *implied *that MC couldn't handle twins. I wished to clarify the point and see if anyone had any first-hand experience of multiple births at MC.



fizzelina said:


> Yet another personal experience that you are doubting? If the poster says it happened then who are you to question what they posted?



Folks, don't start getting offended because someone disagrees with you, or questions the points you're making. This thread should be all about separating the facts from the waffle - so that people can be better informed before making their decisions.


----------



## Complainer

kramer2006 said:


> Your post gave no details about *why *these women were transferred from MC, only that some of them happened to be expecting twins.
> 
> Is the fact that they were twins pertinent to the story at all? Some people might interpret your post as having *implied *that MC couldn't handle twins. I wished to clarify the point and see if anyone had any first-hand experience of multiple births at MC.


I didn't review the medical records of the ladies concerned. If I had reviewed their medical records, I wouldn't know what to look for, and I wouldn't have remembered all the details now, 7 years later. 

I put all the relevant information that I could recall in my post. There were quite a few MC ladies there, and quite of few of them had twins. My interpretation of this is that twins are generally higher risk and have higher complication rates than single births. 

If you wanted to clarify something, you could have tried *asking a question*, instead of sneering. You certainly didn't ask "if anyone had any first-hand experience of multiple births at MC", so it's not surprising that you didn't get an answer.


----------



## kramer2006

Complainer said:


> I put all the relevant information that I could recall in my post.
> 
> If you wanted to clarify something, you could have tried *asking a question*, instead of sneering.



I'll be careful how I phrase my next point then, to avoid offending someone of your sensitive disposition (now that was a sneer...):

I'd respectfully suggest that you offered little relevant information in your post. Seemingly, the fact that some of these women were expecting twins was highly *irrelevant *to the discussion at hand...


----------



## Complainer

kramer2006 said:


> I'd respectfully suggest that you offered little relevant information in your post. Seemingly, the fact that some of these women were expecting twins was highly *irrelevant *to the discussion at hand...


Perhaps you missed this sentance from my earlier post;


> My interpretation of this is that twins are generally higher risk and have higher complication rates than single births.


----------



## kramer2006

Complainer said:


> Perhaps you missed this sentance from my earlier post;



No, I didn't miss it. I'm sure twins are a higher risk, but that doesn't explain exactly why those women were transferred. I understand you didn't "review their medical records", I just felt that your statement about twins was a little ambiguous and that...



> Some people might interpret your post as having *implied *that MC couldn't handle twins.



Perhaps twins are more susceptible to a premature birth, maybe Pinky could confirm?


----------



## ali

'Term' is considered 37 weeks for twins. Twins are associated with increased risk of complications and early delivery. Also very common is when one is breech. Breech vaginal deliveries are becoming less common and cesareans are frequently performed often as a precaution.


----------



## pinkyBear

Hi there,

I amn't a midwife The women could have been in Hollis St for many reasons. If it was a multiple pregnancy, were there fertility reasons? We dont know! The reality is the consultants over theese women felt there could have been problems so the women would have been sent to the public hospital (where the consultant has beds)..

I did do alot of agency in Hollis st. a few years ago (and I have huge regard for the staff there)..


----------



## Complainer

pinkyBear said:


> If it was a multiple pregnancy, were there fertility reasons? We dont know!


Surely it doesn't matter a jot at that stage if there were fertiliity issues or not. Complications can arise from natural or assisted pregnancies.



pinkyBear said:


> The reality is the consultants over theese women felt there could have been problems so the women would have been sent to the public hospital (where the consultant has beds)..


No consultant has beds in Holles St. The private ward (Merrion Wing) is available first-come first-served to those who can pay. If there is a bed free and you can pay for it, you get it, regardless of who your consultant is.

From my memory (though I'm open to correction), no consultant operates in both MC and Holles St.


----------



## pinkyBear

Hi Complainer, I'm not a midwife. My suggestion re fertitity reasons were a consultant may have some concerns if it was a multiple pregnancy.

In general consultants do have beds, or are atleast known to the hospital. I agree the Merrion Wing is available on a first come, first service basis. But behind the scenes the doctors will have some sort of arrangement with the hospital.  



> no consultant operates in both MC and Holles St


 that could very well be the case, in general consultants where necessary do work together and if required a patient could be tranfered over to another hospital.

P..


----------



## Pat Bateman

...


----------



## niceoneted

I think the issue if a baby is not well is that they don't have a neonatal unit. 
Just had a look at their website and realise I was born in one of the hospital groups hospitals. How posh were my parents. Cost 28 pounds at the time (early 70's). I have the receipt.


----------



## IsleOfMan

niceoneted said:


> 28 pounds at the time (early 70's). I have the receipt.


 
Are you sure that wasn't your weight they were talking about?


----------



## Complainer

niceoneted said:


> Cost 28 pounds at the time (early 70's). I have the receipt.


If we bring you back now, would they give a refund?


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## kramer2006

niceoneted said:


> they don't have a neonatal unit.



Yes, they do. Have a look at their website again..


----------



## csirl

Large scale specialist maternity hospitals are equiped to deal with just about any medical issue that can arise. If you are in one of these hospitals, you wont be transferred anywhere else.

Smaller private hospitals which are not specialist maternity hospitals simply will not have the equipment and experience to deal with every medical emergency. If you attend one of these hospitals, there is a chance that you'll be transferred to a specialist hospital if there is a problem. 

In my opinion, it is usually better to be in the place that is best equiped. With a lot of medical complications, time is a big issue. Transferring takes time and, in some cases, may have added risks associated with moving the patient.


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## Complainer

csirl said:


> In my opinion, it is usually better to be in the place that is best equiped. With a lot of medical complications, time is a big issue. Transferring takes time and, in some cases, may have added risks associated with moving the patient.


The other possible risk here is that you can end up with Mum in Mt Carmel recovering and Baby in Unit 8 in Holles St. So Mum can't see/touch/hold Baby for a number of days (maybe 5-6 in case of Cesearean birth), and Dad is spending his day dashing between the two hospitals.


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## Kitten

kramer2006 said:


> I'm not sure you're reading the above posts carefully either. I'm very sorry that your family was put through such an ordeal, and I'm very glad he recovered, but what happened to you is a very rare occurrence and will not happen to (probably) 99% of the population.
> 
> As PinkyBear has already stated, people are transferred between hospitals all the time, depending on their specialities.
> 
> Mount Carmel *is *equipped to deal with sick babies, it's a hospital for God's sake... It just wasn't equipped to deal with the particular illness *your *child had. You shouldn't make flip remarks like this.


 

I'm going to ignore the "flip remarks" because it doesn't deserve a comment.

One of my best friends also had her baby transferred out of Mount Carmel in a similiar situation so that scuppers the 99% of the population remark. It is a wider occurance that you may realise. 

My son developed sepsis - just an infection, nothing tremendously uncommon at all so please don't reference the "particular illness my child had" as something that seemed remote or uncommon. It was an infection and they couldn't handle it.

Also, my consultant worked both with Mount Carmel and Holles St but has since ceased his role with Mount Carmel.  I'm not making suggestions about his reasons, I don't know them.


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## MonkeyFeet

I have watched this thread with great interest

  The OP asked for peoples feedback on their experiences on MC as I have recently given birth in MC I am glad to give my input

  I cannot recommend MC enough, I have not given birth in a public maternity hospital so cannot compare the care

  Of course MC can handle complications, do you think any mother would choose 'nice food' over the welfare of their baby?? At my first appointment I asked how many babies are transferred to Holles St, and was informed it was in the order of 5 or 6 per year. As I had a low risk pregnancy, this was not an issue for me.

  As for snobbery, I dreaded being asked where I was giving birth, as I was frequently greeted with inverted snobbery. Obviously I did not choose MC to wear it like a badge.

  As a first time mum, of course I was nervous. I received the recommendation of a consultant. I can only say my consultant was amazing and alleviated all of my worries throughout the pregnancy and was amazing during the labour/delivery and throughout my stay in hospital.

  For me, trust in my consultant was essential, while I might have achieved this by attending a consultant in Holles St, I received a recommendation and am so glad I went with it.

  When it's your first time being pregnant, you wonder what each pain is, and if it's normal. I had a midwife available to contact 24x7 to ask even the silliest of questions and they were always so helpful. If I wasn't able to contact a midwife immediately, I always received a call back within an hour. I found this contact brilliant, it is important to reduce stress during pregnancy and this helped a lot.

  During the stay in hospital I was glad to see I had the same 'night' midwife and same 'day' midwife each day. Their staff are so helpful and are glad to spend time discussing any concerns. I never had to wait longer than 30 seconds for their assistance when they were called. By the end of my 3 nights, I had built nice relationships with each of the midwives that treated me.


For the first 6 weeks after delivery I can contact MC about my baby or me at any stage of the day or night with questions or concerns. This was especially good on the first week at home, when I could call and ask any questions about my daughter. This might seem trivial to some but as a first time mum it was great to be able to call at 3am when my baby wasn't sleeping and I was trying to figure out what was wrong


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## Complainer

MonkeyFeet said:


> I asked how many babies are transferred to Holles St, and was informed it was in the order of 5 or 6 per year.


Try asking them how many mums get transferred to Holles St prior to giving birth.


MonkeyFeet said:


> When it's your first time being pregnant, you wonder what each pain is, and if it's normal. I had a midwife available to contact 24x7 to ask even the silliest of questions and they were always so helpful. If I wasn't able to contact a midwife immediately, I always received a call back within an hour. I found this contact brilliant, it is important to reduce stress during pregnancy and this helped a lot.
> 
> During the stay in hospital I was glad to see I had the same 'night' midwife and same 'day' midwife each day. Their staff are so helpful and are glad to spend time discussing any concerns. I never had to wait longer than 30 seconds for their assistance when they were called. By the end of my 3 nights, I had built nice relationships with each of the midwives that treated me.
> 
> 
> For the first 6 weeks after delivery I can contact MC about my baby or me at any stage of the day or night with questions or concerns. This was especially good on the first week at home, when I could call and ask any questions about my daughter. This might seem trivial to some but as a first time mum it was great to be able to call at 3am when my baby wasn't sleeping and I was trying to figure out what was wrong


That sounds quite similar to our experiences with Holles St staff.


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## kramer2006

Kitten said:


> I'm going to ignore the "flip remarks" because it doesn't deserve a comment.



You think so? "MC isn't equipped to deal with sick babies". Sounds like a silly remark to me, but you go ahead making them...



Kitten said:


> One of my best friends also had her baby transferred out of Mount Carmel in a similiar situation so that scuppers the 99% of the population remark. It is a wider occurance that you may realise.



So you and *one *of your friends constitute 1% of Mount Carmel's maternity patients now? At the end of the day, I think I'd rather take the advice of my doctor. In the absence of any official stats, if the doctor tells me it's a rare occurrence, then I'll believe them before some random post on an internet message board.

Everyone I know who's had babies in MC have had overwhelmingly positive experiences, and that's what I based (and will continue to base) my family's healthcare options on. I'd urge anyone reading this thread to solicit opinion from trusted friends and relatives on this matter and don't base all of your research on message boards. The amount of misinformation out there is staggering.


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## kramer2006

Complainer said:


> That sounds quite similar to our experiences with Holles St staff.



Another knee-jerk post from the "Complainer". (Never a truer word spoken...)

MonkeyFeet has given her personal experiences of MC, as the OP requested. The OP never asked about Holles Street, btw...


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## Kitten

Kramer2006 you said earlier:- 

"You hit the nail on the head when you talk about "more comfort and more personal attention and better food". My wife 
and I happen to think this is money well spent"


Yes, in a hotel or a restaurant, not when it comes to the safe delivery of a baby. I really hope you don't go through what we went through when you are blessed with number 2. 

I'm out of this, the OP has my experience, every word of it factual and it doesn't matter whether it is 1% or 50% of occurances, it happened, don't be naive enough to think it can't happen to you. I was and it did.


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## kramer2006

I'm out of this too...

Some people who have posted on this thread have thought nothing of openly criticising the way we chose to bring our baby into the world, some even implying we were irresponsible for choosing MC. I know from my own experience just how ridiculous this assertion is, and I've stated so until I was blue in the face.

I originally posted to this thread to refute the implication that MC perform C-sections because of some idiotic notions of some people being "too posh to push" (a disgusting expression, by the way). I also wanted to give our own personal experiences of MC, as the OP requested, so that it might be useful to someone else. But all some people want to do is disparage my choices and bring the whole discussion back to "private vs. public". Same old chestnut, and I'm no longer interested in refuting some the tittle-tattle that has been offered here as fact.

There are also those unfortunate people who have had a bad experience at MC and posted their experiences here. I *personally*, would not base my choices on the handful of the bad experiences reported here (some of which are mere hearsay). That's why we'll be returning to MC. Take a look on Rollercoaster or WeddingsOnline to see the other side of the coin - mistakes and disasters happen in public hospitals too...

I know (I hope) that most people know to take *EVERYTHING *they read on message boards with a pinch of salt.

All the best.


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## honeysuckle

I had baby no. one in Rotunda, baby no. 2 and MC and no. 3 in Holles Street.   In the very unlikely event of no. 4 appearing it would def be MC.    The atmosphere in MC is much less stern I found at least and that helped me relax and breastfeed more easily, etc.  Also the food was way better so at least I had a good feed and rest before going home.


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## lucym

I feel I can give all sides to this thread. 

(1) I was born in Mount Carmel. 

(2) I had my first child in Mount Carmel - great experience, little nervous about first child. 

(3) Decided I didn't want to pay the balance of fees between VHI and Mt Carmel rates for my 2nd baby and went to the Coombe - about 2.5k at the time but still paid for private consultant - great experience.

(4) For my 3rd child, economics kicked in meant that not only did I go to the Coombe, I cut back on consultant and went semi private - no problems

(5) Moved house; so for my 4th child, Holles St, further cutbacks meant I went public and used gp/consultant care. Huge savings in consultants fees BUT and here was the best bit, I discharged myself after one day and stayed in the Merrion Hotel for the next 2 nights with my new baby with hubby and 3 children coming to visit. Midwife visited also. Total cost 2 nights in beautiful suite beautiful breakfast and the most pleasant, serene surroundings and rest I had in years - about €340 cost in total.


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## Marietta

lucym said:


> (5) Moved house; so for my 4th child, Holles St, further cutbacks meant I went public and used gp/consultant care. Huge savings in consultants fees BUT and here was the best bit, I discharged myself after one day and stayed in the Merrion Hotel for the next 2 nights with my new baby with hubby and 3 children coming to visit. Midwife visited also. Total cost 2 nights in beautiful suite beautiful breakfast and the most pleasant, serene surroundings and rest I had in years - about €340 cost in total.


 

Good on you, what a lovely story 

Now what are you planning to do for your 5th


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## Pat Bateman

...


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## Marietta

This is a report from today's Sunday Tribune   http://www.tribune.ie/news/article/2010/aug/01/secret-report-hse-cutbacks-put-patients-at-severe-/

This is a pretty damning report on our public health service and given the choice most people who have the ability to pay for their maternity care or all of their health care needs will do so.


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## enoxy

Pat Bateman said:


> "Mother and baby doing well in Mount Carmel"
> 
> The above is an extract from a recent Facebook update of an aquaintance of mine.
> 
> Wearing it like a badge...affected, name dropping, shallow and pathetic.


 

Isn't old-fashioned begrudgery alive and well. You sound like a very envious, insecure person who is obsessed with how you compare to others.


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## Tomorrow

_(*5) Moved house; so for my 4th child, Holles St, further cutbacks meant I went public and used gp/consultant care. Huge savings in consultants fees BUT and here was the best bit, I discharged myself after one day and stayed in the Merrion Hotel for the next 2 nights with my new baby with hubby and 3 children coming to visit. Midwife visited also. Total cost 2 nights in beautiful suite beautiful breakfast and the most pleasant, serene surroundings and rest I had in years - about €340 cost in total.*_

_Thats a really great idea!! Something I will consider if I ever have a 4th - well done!_


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## truthseeker

Pat Bateman said:


> "Mother and baby doing well in Mount Carmel"
> 
> The above is an extract from a recent Facebook update of an aquaintance of mine.
> 
> Wearing it like a badge...affected, name dropping, shallow and pathetic.


 

I dont understand how you are reading 'affected, name dropping, shallow and pathetic' into that comment?

All I am reading into it is that the mother and baby are doing well and the hospital is mentioned - presumably so visitors know what hospital to go to!

I would think the 'affected, name dropping.....' etc feelings say more about you than about anyone else.


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## kramer2006

Pat Bateman said:


> "Mother and baby doing well in Mount Carmel"
> 
> The above is an extract from a recent Facebook update of an aquaintance of mine.
> 
> Wearing it like a badge...affected, name dropping, shallow and pathetic.
> 
> Some people need to cop themselves on, especially those who are deluding themselves and others into thinking that they chose Mount Carmel for reasons other than avoiding gurriers or the quality of the food and accommodation.  End the charade folks.  I understand that there isn't a consultant on call in Mount Carmel.  Surely that should influence the decision process more than the shallow Celtic Tiger stuff?



What an utterly moronic contribution...

You have got some serious issues there Pat. I've ignored your last couple of posts, but that just takes the biscuit. Get some treatment for that chip on your shoulder. I can recommend a good hospital if you want...


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## fizzelina

kramer2006 said:


> What an utterly moronic contribution...
> 
> You have got some serious issues there Pat. I've ignored your last couple of posts, but that just takes the biscuit. Get some treatment for that chip on your shoulder. I can recommend a good hospital if you want...


 
I thought you were "out" Kramer??


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## Pat Bateman

...


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## MandaC

The tone of this thread is very hostile from both sides of the argument.  Do people really feel that strongly about what other people do with their money?

Once they were not asking me to pay, I could not give a monkeys.  

Nobody has to justify themselves to anyone else either.  If I dont want to go to the Coombe for any reason, thats my business. Likewise, someone is not better than me just because they go to Mount Carmel.  

Pat, I think you might be reading too much into the mother and baby doing well in Mount Carmel thing.  Could it not just be....eh, it is currently where they are?


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## kramer2006

fizzelina said:


> I thought you were "out" Kramer??



Well what can I reply to that witty and biting comment? If you've nothing better to offer than that, don't bother...



Pat Bateman said:


> Hilarious insults.
> 
> In my view, based on what you've contributed to this thread, you're a disgrace and a bad parent.  Your decision making process was obviously influenced by nouveau riche "keeping up with the Jones" factors.





Pat, you're some piece of work... Don't you realise, with every witless comment you make, you're only making yourself sound even more irrational and begrudging? As for your "bad parent" comment, I think you must be rather pitiful and bitter individual. Let me know about that shoulder surgery.


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## MandaC

People should be ashamed carrying on with this petty one-up-manship when there are people with genuine problems looking for help on this forum.


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## Pat Bateman

Trying to engage with certain contributors to this thread is a complete waste of time.  For that reason, I'm out...


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## Brendan Burgess

And with that, we close the thread.


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