# Another example pubs, restaurants shooting themselves down.



## z101 (20 Oct 2009)

We have just returned from a weekend in the South East. We passed through Dunmore East for a walk on the Beach and maybe some lunch. We went into to a bar in the village which did food and which was completely empty except for 3 locals, and could not believe the prices they listed. For a some deep fried cod and chips it was €16.50. This place was 200 yards from the boats that catch the bloody fish!!
There are a few pubs in Dunmore East and they all have the same price range (All empty bar a couple of locals drinking).
Later we were chatting to a couple of fisherman down by the boats and they were saying that this rip off the tourist mentality is stopping people coming back to Dunmore East. They also pointed out that they only get a couple of Euro per kilo for the fish they catch, and to see restaurants and supermarkets put this massive markup is criminal.
How thick are these business'?? They are not doing any trade at these prices.. Go figure!


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## allthedoyles (20 Oct 2009)

You could have come across on the Passage East /Ballyhack car ferry and had lunch in the Stanville Lodge Hotel outside Wexford Town , where lunch would cost you € 5 per person , and if you have soup for starters , you can have tea/coffee free .( thats a 3 course meal for €8.

By paying the car-ferry , you would still have saved money . !


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## vandriver (21 Oct 2009)

We stayed in Dingle for a week in July and were horrified at the prices being looked for(up to €30 a main course in a pub) .Of course the town was empty!


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## mro (21 Oct 2009)

vandriver said:


> We stayed in Dingle for a week in July and were horrified at the prices being looked for(up to €30 a main course in a pub) .Of course the town was empty!



I was in dingle also over the summer (decided to holiday at home this year) and was totally shocked by the price of food, as you say pub main courses for nothing less than 20 quid a head.....I didnt think Dingle was empty but it was mostly non irish people. I  wont be returning at those prices anyway.


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## Club Scrub (21 Oct 2009)

How many people who have made comments on this thread have ever owned or ran a bar or restaurant? I would hazard a guess at none.

I did own a bar & restaurant (thank god I managed to get out of it in time!!). The bar restaurant business has been in recession (except perhaps city centre locations) since way before the property bubble burst. How many outlets have gone to the wall since 2005? There are a number of factors which caused this- the smoking ban, random drink driving testing, peoples disposable income has decreased, however the cost of operating the business has spirralled.

In the example above I would suggest that €16.50 is quite steep for cod & chips, but lets just work this out- €16.50 - VAT = €14.53 nett. From this figure the owner had to purchase the produce (fish, potatoes, salad, dressing, condiments, supply the plate, cutlery, tables, chairs, light, heat & finally the chef to cook the meal, waiting staff & kitchen porters plus try to make a profit) What most people don't realise is that water charges to the average bar/restaurant are approx. €10-15k per annum (€200-€250 per week), insurance is often close to €10k per annum, wages have gone bananas- a kitchen washup person earns close to €19 per hour on a Sunday. Nobody in the general public gives any credence to the actual costs involved in running these businesses- if they are so lucrative then why do so many go to the wall?

There also seems to be the misconception that if these premises lower their prices they would be busier? No guarantee of this, and in any event what is the point in being busy if you are not making any profit? How many places-retail & restaurant business that slash prices go wallop within 12 months?

Having been in this business I would hazard the opinion that in late October that bar/restaurant in "The Sunny South East" shouldn't even have been open, as rather than being badly priced, it might be fairer reflection to say that there was NO BUSINESS there to be done at any price. That man would have been financially far better off to the have the door closed as at least at that stage it would cap his expenses. The season for business in this area would be heavily dependent on the Summer, and like many international resorts it may be better to just close down in Winter.

Having said all this I would agree that €16.50 would be expensive enough for the dish involved, however I would just like to make the point for people to factor in the costs of running a business before playing the "rip off" card. At much less than €16.50 it would be a case of the customer "ripping off" the proprietor!


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## Guest128 (21 Oct 2009)

Normally i'm all for giving out about prices, but Dingle empty - are you mad? I launched a small website for a holiday home down there last June (its not even in Dingle - its in Brandon), they were booked until Semptember out within a week of it being online.



mro said:


> I was in dingle also over the summer (decided to holiday at home this year) and was totally shocked by the price of food, as you say pub main courses for nothing less than 20 quid a head.....I didnt think Dingle was empty but it was mostly non irish people. I wont be returning at those prices anyway.





vandriver said:


> We stayed in Dingle for a week in July and were horrified at the prices being looked for(up to €30 a main course in a pub) .Of course the town was empty!


 


Which is it - €20 or €30??

I honestly dont know what pubs ye were eating in as here are some menu samples and I dont see anything over €20:

[broken link removed]

[broken link removed]


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## Caveat (21 Oct 2009)

All well and good Club Scrub - but how is then that many restaurants can charge much less, for better food and still have a thriving business?


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## MANTO (21 Oct 2009)

Caveat said:


> All well and good Club Scrub - but how is then that many restaurants can charge much less, for better food and still have a thriving business?


 
+1

And the Irish Tourist Board are trying to get poeple to holiday at home.....no thanks, i will take one of O'Learys cheap flights, get a decent hotel for a fraction of the price than here and dine in a nice resaturant for a fraction of the price serving better food, thank you very much...


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## Latrade (21 Oct 2009)

Caveat said:


> All well and good Club Scrub - but how is then that many restaurants can charge much less, for better food and still have a thriving business?


 
A lot are doing so as a loss leader at the moment. They can't sustain that level of pricing in the long term. Their hope is that it gets people back into the habit of going out. However, soon they will have to up the prices in order to survive.


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## Caveat (21 Oct 2009)

Latrade said:


> A lot are doing so as a loss leader at the moment. They can't sustain that level of pricing in the long term. Their hope is that it gets people back into the habit of going out. However, soon they will have to up the prices in order to survive.


 
In some cases certainly, but by no means all - or even most I would guess. 

_Number32_ in Dundalk is a good example - quality, award winning food, almost always busy *and* low cost - always has been AFAIK - no particluar 'recession menus/specials' or anything. They have maintained these prices for years now.


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## Club Scrub (21 Oct 2009)

Caveat said:


> All well and good Club Scrub - but how is then that many restaurants can charge much less, for better food and still have a thriving business?


 
What is the definition of thriving? The doors open & a crowd inside? You would be sorely mistake as would the majority of the public.

In almost 80% of cases lunch is a loss leader for restuarants with the hope that people will return for dinner or drinks of an evening. The best description I have heard from from a very prominent hotelier who described his lunch trade as "like toliet roll- something which he had to provide for the public but there was nothing in it for him"- economic fact.

Single handedly the minimum wage has killed any potential profit on resturant food priced at below €12.95. If you take it that say a restaurant has 40 people for lunch (which mid week is now a large crowd) and the same restaurant has 4 waitresses, just 1 chef & 2 kitchen porters from 12-3pm i.e. (4 + 1 + 2) x 3 hours X average €10 per hour = €210- that is a cost of €5.25 per head in just basic wages alone for 40 people. 

Do you see my point?

Another poster wants to take a cheap Ryanair flight- he may just be correct as there is 100% probability that he is flying to area which has a much lower minimum wage than Ireland.

As I have said- this is not a moan as I am no longer in the leisure business. I just want people to realise how IT REALLY is for these businesses.


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## Complainer (21 Oct 2009)

Hi Club Scrub - It is always good to get an 'inside' view. However, I think you are leaving out one important feature in your calculations - drinks. Most tables will have some paid drinks, either soft drinks with huge margins or alcoholic drinks with decent margins, which all go towards making it a much more profitable exercise.

I don't think it is valid to dismiss the entire lunch trade as toilet roll. While this may be the case for some outlets, in many cases, lunch is a standalone profitable business. Generally, the places where I go to lunch will be near my workplace, and I probably won't be going back in the evening. The same would apply to most of the pub lunch trade in Dublin .


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## z107 (21 Oct 2009)

> Hi Club Scrub - It is always good to get an 'inside' view. However, I think you are leaving out one important feature in your calculations - drinks. Most tables will have some paid drinks, either soft drinks with huge margins or alcoholic drinks with decent margins, which all go towards making it a much more profitable exercise.


Well, we've given up drinking alcohol when we go out for a meal (taxi afterwards being too expensive) Of course this mightn't be a general trend. We just drink water.

One other thing, Club Scrub is now out of the business, so why would they lie, or stretch the truth? I would be inclined to believe them. What they are saying certainly makes sense.


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## suemoo1 (21 Oct 2009)

mro said:


> I was in dingle also over the summer (decided to holiday at home this year) and was totally shocked by the price of food, as you say pub main courses for nothing less than 20 quid a head.....I didnt think Dingle was empty but it was mostly non irish people. I wont be returning at those prices anyway.


 

Thats way its still cheaper to go away.. food,drink no need for babysitters etc.. couldnt do hotel or pub prices here for two weeks!!


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## Club Scrub (21 Oct 2009)

Complainer said:


> Hi Club Scrub - It is always good to get an 'inside' view. However, I think you are leaving out one important feature in your calculations - drinks. Most tables will have some paid drinks, either soft drinks with huge margins or alcoholic drinks with decent margins, which all go towards making it a much more profitable exercise.
> 
> I don't think it is valid to dismiss the entire lunch trade as toilet roll. While this may be the case for some outlets, in many cases, lunch is a standalone profitable business. Generally, the places where I go to lunch will be near my workplace, and I probably won't be going back in the evening. The same would apply to most of the pub lunch trade in Dublin .


 
Drinks? On a Sunday perhaps but how many people just avail of the tap water at lunchtime rather than buying from the bar. In some respects you are correct in that in the event that people would have particularly soft drinks it gives the outlet a chance but unfortunatly in practise this often doesn't occur.

Other menu options such as lasagne, stew, soups, sandwiches or even curry offer a better margin than items such as roasts or fish. The trouble with much of this is that a large number of covers (50-60) or more are required to reach a break even point. 

I have no doubt that not every outlet is losing particularly in built up business districts restaurants & bars have a better chance. But just as an excersise the next time anyone is having lunch to do a rough head count of both customers & staff & then compute a guesstimate of income. It will be a close run thing between profit & loss when only wages are factored in- leaving out all other running costs.

The really really profitable restaurant businesses are actually takeaways as the no frills, quicker turnover of customers, and lower staff/operating costs gives the optimum chance of profitability. No need for an expensive chef, waitresses, fancy tableware, large heated premises etc in this case food is extremely profitable.


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## z101 (21 Oct 2009)

Well actually I used to run a bar in a previous life and know exactly whats involved. There was another couple who walked in and turned around and walked out after reading the menu. There are customers its just that these places dont know how to secure them. I have a friend who took over a bar in sligo that was going to the wall but has turned the place around. Instead of pub owners learning he got awfull grief from pub owners for taking their custom.
This attitude is the same as taxi drivers had after deregulation. If these premises are not up to the task then someone who can run the place more efficient and get customers in should. Ripping off is part of the problem and furthest from the solution. There is no defence for this mentality. That bar probably picked that price because they believed €16.50 is about £15 and the brits would be happy enough paying that. Dunmore East is 20 mins from Waterford City which is a market on your doorstep!. If the pub was in rural Monaghan then fair enough but most of these pubs are just poorly and sometimes lazily run. 
The other poster is correct about the drinks - The markup on drink and notably soft drinks is huge. Publicans blame the government, smoking ban, drink drive limit et al for their woes, but the place I was in could easlily have created a turnover. There was a cafe a 100metre away from it that was full of people. It pretty much only did sandwiches and would do better if it broadened it's menu even slightly, but they have to pay wages and insurances also and without the benefit of a bar to offer.
We went into 3 pubs in Dunmore and they all seemed to be singing of the same hymn sheet 'co-incidentally'
To put it simply for Club scrub how can a bar in the midlands do fish and chips for €9.99 when they have to pay a supplier who has to transport the fish from the boats (Rare I know but I seen this in Portlaoise) - compare this to bars that charge nearly double in a place overlooking the boats with the fish.?
This is the Aer Lingus mentality of years ago - It took Ryanair to come in and show them that a number of people paying a small fee is better than nobody paying a high fee.
Publicans in Ireland will have to learn this lesson. There are examples of some of them doing it, like my friend, but the vast majority have excuses like those been thrown around here. A bit of creativity, common sense and some reality would go a long way. They are not doing themselves and Irish tourism any favours.


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## Guest128 (21 Oct 2009)

Club Scrub said:


> Drinks? On a Sunday perhaps but how many people just avail of the tap water at lunchtime rather than buying from the bar. In some respects you are correct in that in the event that people would have particularly soft drinks it gives the outlet a chance but unfortunatly in practise this often doesn't occur.



Why wouldnt you avail of tap water when a coke is about €3 for 330ml in a bar compared with €1 in a shop for 500ml. Recent trends of charging customers 80c+ for a pint of water with a dash of lime/orange is a another thing that doesnt sit well.


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## Caveat (21 Oct 2009)

Ceatharlach said:


> Well actually I used to run a bar in a previous life and know exactly whats involved. There was another couple who walked in and turned around and walked out after reading the menu. There are customers its just that these places dont know how to secure them. I have a friend who took over a bar in sligo that was going to the wall but has turned the place around. Instead of pub owners learning he got awfull grief from pub owners for taking their custom.
> This attitude is the same as taxi drivers had after deregulation. If these premises are not up to the task then someone who can run the place more efficient and get customers in should. Ripping off is part of the problem and furthest from the solution. There is no defence for this mentality. That bar probably picked that price because they believed €16.50 is about £15 and the brits would be happy enough paying that. Dunmore East is 20 mins from Waterford City which is a market on your doorstep!. If the pub was in rural Monaghan then fair enough but most of these pubs are just poorly and sometimes lazily run.
> The other poster is correct about the drinks - The markup on drink and notably soft drinks is huge. Publicans blame the government, smoking ban, drink drive limit et al for their woes, but the place I was in could easlily have created a turnover. There was a cafe a 100metre away from it that was full of people. It pretty much only did sandwiches and would do better if it broadened it's menu even slightly, but they have to pay wages and insurances also and without the benefit of a bar to offer.
> We went into 3 pubs in Dunmore and they all seemed to be singing of the same hymn sheet 'co-incidentally'
> ...


 
+1

I don't dispute anything Club Scrub says - I'm in no position to, as I don't know enough about the business.

But at the end of the day many retail businesses operate on a similar model and cost base : supplies, wages, transport, utilities etc etc

You either manage this well or you don't.

There are many restaurants who consistently provide good food at reasonable prices and have more or less always done so - as in _Number32_, as I've said.  They aren't privy to some black art in restauranteering - if they can do it, others can.

In a way, my major gripe would be the quality - if this €16.50 fish and chips for example was superb, I wouldn't mind paying it. It's when the food/service at inflated prices is only average - or worse, poor, that it becomes a transparent backfiring joke.

Oh and BTW I've eaten in Dingle a few times - some great restaurants but plenty of very mediocre ones - which charge way too much for what they provide IMO.


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## mro (21 Oct 2009)

FLANDERS` said:


> I honestly dont know what pubs ye were eating in as here are some menu samples and I dont see anything over €20:
> 
> [broken link removed]
> 
> [broken link removed]



Here is one
[broken link removed]

there may have been cheaper places but my experiences of walking around and looking at prices was that they were all around this price and i was there for 3 nights.


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## Dash1 (21 Oct 2009)

We recently got charged 9 euro for a pint of orange juice and lemonade in Findlaters in Howth. The 'driver' in our party asked for a J2O but settled for an orange and lemonade as they don't stock it. He didn't care what he drank. It was a group so stupidly the bill wasn't checked properly and it was only noticed when someone scanned it later at home .... 2 small bottles of britvic orange and one small britvic lemonade popped into a pint glass at 3 euro a go     genius. If all pubs did this they'd be able to sell their fish and chips for 1 euro a portion !


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## di74 (21 Oct 2009)

Caveat said:


> +1
> 
> 
> In a way, my major gripe would be the quality - if this €16.50 fish and chips for example was superb, I wouldn't mind paying it. It's when the food/service at inflated prices is only average - or worse, poor, that it becomes a transparent backfiring joke.
> ...


 
Agree totally with this...I think the quality provided in many places is disgraceful. I was in Westport during the summer and had lunch in a pub in the town. Chips & a burger that was described as "dressed to the hilt" which was "dressed" with a limp lettuce leaf and soggy slice of tomato was €15.00. 
Its poor quality that is the problem.


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## Guest128 (21 Oct 2009)

mro said:


> Here is one
> [broken link removed]
> 
> there may have been cheaper places but my experiences of walking around and looking at prices was that they were all around this price and i was there for 3 nights.



Ashes is not really a pub so I wouldnt be surprised with that - you mentioned pub grub in your original post. Pub grub is much cheaper than those prices e.g. Murphy's, Lord Bakers does a 3 course early bird for E26, Geaney's. I rarely actually eat in restaurants when down there TBH but E30 for mains in a pub I have not seen


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