# Probe after 'unexplained' surge in people claiming disability allowance



## Brendan Burgess (20 Feb 2018)

*Probe after 'unexplained' surge in people claiming disability allowance*

Interesting article in today's Indo 


In an exclusive piece in today’s _Irish Independent_, Charlie Weston writes that in the past 10 years there has been a jump of more than 42,000 getting the payments.

As it stands, there are 126,000 in receipt of the disability allowance - a 50pc rise from 10 years ago.

...

Some of the increase is explained by changes in medical assessment, as well as demographic changes - but many recipients are young.

There are concerns that a minority of disability cheats are skewing the figures and claiming taxpayers' money.

The Department of Public Expenditure and Reform recently produced a report calling for further investigation of the matter.


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## Purple (20 Feb 2018)

One factor may be that we have better mental health services than we had 10 years ago and a diagnosis of that type can qualify someone for disability payments.


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## ashambles (20 Feb 2018)

As far as I know disability allowance (which any of us could need to avail of) comes from PRSI. However I don't think you need to have made any PRSI payments to avail of it? 

I remember in another thread I asked why our PRSI fund was being drained when our COAP and unemployment benefit didn't get that close to the overall figure being paid into PRSI. They answer some poster gave was disability.

If there is large scale abuse of disability then it'd be one of the reasons that COAP pension age is being delayed and payment levels impossible to predict. 

Perhaps it would be better if disability was only covered by PRSI for some fixed period and then was moved to welfare. 
The advantage would be that the government feels welfare expenditure is their money and they'd be more likely to try to ensure fraud is kept at low levels, once it's coming from PRSI I feel that's less likely to be the case.


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## Purple (20 Feb 2018)

So if you end up paralyzed you need to get better before your disability runs out? 

Maybe we just need to reallocate SW staff to make sure cases are genuine and send people to prison who make blatantly false claims.


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## noproblem (20 Feb 2018)

Be good if we could get a breakdown on what exactly all those disabilities are?


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## Monbretia (20 Feb 2018)

No you don't need to get better, you move to Invalidity pension if it's permanent.


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## Purple (20 Feb 2018)

Monbretia said:


> No you don't need to get better, you move to Invalidity pension if it's permanent.


Okay. It would be interesting to see the increase in that as well over the same period.


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## RETIRED2017 (20 Feb 2018)

I suspect some of it is people who spent all of there life working watching other people gaming the system and paying extra tax because of Legitimate loopholes  are sick of it ,

They now have an underlying medical problem so it is now there turn to use what they see as a legitimate  loophole in the system

We don't frown on Legitimate loopholes when people are in a position to get professional help to avail of the loophole or is that only for some people,

I would also say the raising of the pension age is not helping where as person is finding it hard because of age to continue working same with someone with an underline medical condition having to stop working before the new retirement age kicks in,

If you cant beat them you might as well join in. We need to be on our guard and make sure we are fair to the people who go out to work every day if we don't we will pay the price ,

You can feel it if you look back at how some posters are changing there position on this site,


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## shweeney (20 Feb 2018)

David McW was writing about this 5 years ago:
https://www.independent.ie/opinion/...uitting-workforce-on-disability-29170473.html


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## gipimann (20 Feb 2018)

ashambles said:


> As far as I know disability allowance (which any of us could need to avail of) comes from PRSI. However I don't think you need to have made any PRSI payments to avail of it?
> 
> I remember in another thread I asked why our PRSI fund was being drained when our COAP and unemployment benefit didn't get that close to the overall figure being paid into PRSI. They answer some poster gave was disability.
> 
> ...



Disability Allowance is not paid from the Social Insurance Fund.  
Illness Benefit and Invalidity Pension are paid from the Social Insurance Fund, based on PRSI contributions.


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## ashambles (20 Feb 2018)

Thanks for that clarification, that would make more sense.


gipimann said:


> Disability Allowance is not paid from the Social Insurance Fund.
> Illness Benefit and Invalidity Pension are paid from the Social Insurance Fund, based on PRSI contributions.


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## TheBigShort (20 Feb 2018)

Another factor is that the article points to the jump being "in the last ten years".


welfare.ie

*Qualifying Conditions in Summary*
To qualify for a Disability Allowance a person must:


Have an injury, disease or physical or mental disability that has continued or may be expected to continue for at least one year
As a result of this disability be _substantially restricted_ in undertaking work that would otherwise be suitable for a person of your age, experience and qualifications
be aged between 16 and under 66
_satisfy a means test_
be habitually resident in the State

I'm wondering, just as an observation, is part of the reason down to reduced working hours for people resulting in reduced income that then qualifies them for the allowance.
In other words, they may have already registered the disability but when times were good, they were still capable of holding down a full-time job that disqualified them from the allowance by virtue of their income?

Over the last ten years, when times were tight, and hours reduced, and pay reduced, is it possible that, given their disability and reduced income they now qualified for the allowance through the means test?

Perhaps in ten years from now, the same report will show a decrease in the claims due to the up-turn in employment?

In any case, it is right that it is investigated.


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## RETIRED2017 (20 Feb 2018)

TheBigShort said:


> Another factor is that the article points to the jump being "in the last ten years".
> 
> 
> welfare.ie
> ...


Investigating it is the easy part more than likely they will create a bigger mess by the time they are finished,


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## Delboy (20 Feb 2018)

Finian McGrath, Junior Minister, was on about this yesterday on radio. He reckons it's all down to better diagnosis and it being done earlier. Simple as that. And he was very happy that people are getting what they are entitled (that great Irish word) to when before they weren't.
There's no mention in that Indo article linked at the start but apparently we are well ahead v's the rest of the OECD.

It's a great way of getting away from job seekers and those (occasional) pesky interviews/follow ups to see how the job hunt is going!


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## Protocol (20 Feb 2018)

ashambles said:


> As far as I know disability allowance (which any of us could need to avail of) comes from PRSI. However I don't think you need to have made any PRSI payments to avail of it?
> 
> I remember in another thread I asked why our PRSI fund was being drained when our COAP and unemployment benefit didn't get that close to the overall figure being paid into PRSI. They answer some poster gave was disability.
> 
> ...



No.

DA is a means-tested allowance, so it's not based on PRSI, and it is funded out of general tax.

Invalidity Pension IP is a PRSI-based benefit, and it is financed from the SIF.


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## Protocol (20 Feb 2018)

Friends of mine prefer DA to JSA, as they will not be challenged to find work on DA.


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## TheBigShort (20 Feb 2018)

Protocol said:


> Friends of mine prefer DA to JSA, as they will not be challenged to find work on DA.



That doesn't make sense. One of the conditions of DA is, in part, the recognition that it is more challenging for people with disability to find work.


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## TheBigShort (20 Feb 2018)

Some CSO disability stats

http://www.cso.ie/en/csolatestnews/...016resultsprofile9-healthdisabilityandcarers/

_13.5% of entire population recorded as having a disability_

_Age U20 6.7% up from 6% in 2011
Up to one in ten persons below 45 years of age had a disability, rising to 20% by age 60

Educational attainment amongst disabled persons was much lower than that of the general population at all levels.  Amongst those aged 15 to 50 (inclusive), 13.7% had completed no higher than primary level education, compared with 4.2% of the general population; 37.0% had completed third level education compared with 53.4% of all those aged 15-50. 

There were 176,445 persons with a disability in the labour force, giving a labour force participation rate of 30.2% compared with 61.4% for the population overall.

Of those with a disability aged 15 and over in April 2016 (584,045 people), just 22.3% (130,067) were at work, compared with 53.4% of the overall population in that age group.  Overall in April 2016, 6.5*%* of those at work had a disability.

The unemployment rate amongst persons with a disability was 26.3%, more than double the 12.9% rate for the population as a whole._


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## Purple (20 Feb 2018)

Without getting into the morality of the issue is the fact that we don't have abortion part of the reason for higher levels of disability? 
Do people with Downs Syndrome qualify for disability?


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## Protocol (20 Feb 2018)

TheBigShort said:


> That doesn't make sense. One of the conditions of DA is, in part, the recognition that it is more challenging for people with disability to find work.



The people I'm talking about aren't disabled, in the sense that they they do not suffer from an impairment that prevents them from working.

But they don't want to work.

DA means they don't have to look for work, as much as they would have to with JSA.


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## TheBigShort (20 Feb 2018)

Protocol said:


> The people I'm talking about aren't disabled, in the sense that they they do not suffer from an impairment that prevents them from working.
> 
> But they don't want to work.
> 
> DA means they don't have to look for work, as much as they would have to with JSA.



If they are not disabled how are they claiming DA?


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## aristotle (20 Feb 2018)

DA lasts up to two years before you then have to be re-assessed to go onto long term Disability. But yes, it is not v difficult to get DA for the first 2 years when mental health is used as the reason (if you are the type of person who wants to fraudulently claim it). Its not exactly possible to counter someone who says they are depressed and suicidal and therefore cannot work.


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## RETIRED2017 (20 Feb 2018)

Protocol said:


> The people I'm talking about aren't disabled, in the sense that they they do not suffer from an impairment that prevents them from working.
> 
> But they don't want to work.
> 
> DA means they don't have to look for work, as much as they would have to with JSA.



Out of interest have they worked and paid payroll prsi is it just don't want to work what age profile are they, 

Are they just taking it easy until the pension kicks in because they have enough to live  

did they just leave the work place to draw or were the made redundant and are living off it along with the DA,


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## Protocol (20 Feb 2018)

TheBigShort said:


> If they are not disabled how are they claiming DA?



That's a good question.

Thousands of people in Ireland are claiming DA, yet they could work.

I suggest looking at the medical profession for the answer.


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## TheBigShort (20 Feb 2018)

aristotle said:


> DA lasts up to two years before you then have to be re-assessed to go onto long term Disability. But yes, it is not v difficult to get DA for the first 2 years when mental health is used as the reason (if you are the type of person who wants to fraudulently claim it). Its not exactly possible to counter someone who says they are depressed and suicidal and therefore cannot work.



I'd be surprised if its as simple as that. Don't you need a medical assessment?

I mean, simply stating that you are 'suicidal' will probably get you a prescription for anti-depressants and maybe an appointment with a psychologist. It doesn't automatically equate to being "substantially restricted in undertaking work". A psychologist might well determine that the lack of employment is the root cause of the depression.

There are 40,000 wheelchair users in Ireland. I'm not sure how many are working age but 20,000 is hardly ott? That is 20,000 DA recipients for one disability alone. Add in those with limbs missing, hard of hearing, sight impairment and recognizable mental disabilities such as aspergers syndrome and autism.
Add in more disabilities that you can think of, and its not hard to see how the number 126,000 of claimants is made up.


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## TheBigShort (20 Feb 2018)

Protocol said:


> That's a good question.
> 
> Thousands of people in Ireland are claiming DA, yet they could work.
> 
> I suggest looking at the medical profession for the answer.



Who says they aren't working?


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## RETIRED2017 (20 Feb 2018)

RETIRED2017 said:


> Investigating it is the easy part more than likely they will create a bigger mess by the time they are finished,


The Government were happy to have them drawing DA rather than show up on the unemployment data for the last few years,


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## TheBigShort (20 Feb 2018)

Here is one of those CSO stats again in case it was missed;



TheBigShort said:


> There were *176,445* persons with a disability in the labour force, giving a labour force participation rate of 30.2% compared with 61.4% for the population overall.



I read from that, that 30.2% of people claiming DA are at work, or actively seeking work, or of the working age.


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## aristotle (20 Feb 2018)

TheBigShort said:


> I'd be surprised if its as simple as that. Don't you need a medical assessment?
> .



Think it requires a cert filled out from the GP. So yeah that's the medical assessment. At end of two years the Social welfare department require an assessment from their own medical GP.


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## TheBigShort (20 Feb 2018)

aristotle said:


> Think it requires a cert filled out from the GP. So yeah that's the medical assessment. At end of two years the Social welfare department require an assessment from their own medical GP.



Yes, but I would imagine the cert will have to elaborate a bit more than "patient is suicidal"?

In other words, a track record of repeated prescriptions, GP visits, suicidal tendencies, failure to get work, failure to hold down work, a psychologist assessment etc, would qualify someone for DA based on mental health grounds.
I don't think it works the way you have described. If someone is out of work because they are depressed they get JSA or JSB benefit like anyone else. If they believe they cannot go to work at all because of the depression, that will require a greater assessment other than a single trip to the GP.


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## Purple (20 Feb 2018)

aristotle said:


> Think it requires a cert filled out from the GP.


Some doctors sell these without seeing the patient so that's no guarantee


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## aristotle (20 Feb 2018)

TheBigShort said:


> Yes, but I would imagine the cert will have to elaborate a bit more than "patient is suicidal"?
> 
> In other words, a track record of repeated prescriptions, GP visits, suicidal tendencies, failure to get work, failure to hold down work, a psychologist assessment etc, would qualify someone for DA based on mental health grounds.
> .



yeah true, but don't need to show failure to get work or failure to hold down work or psychological assessment. Of course a single trip to the GP probably wont be enough.


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## Purple (20 Feb 2018)

TheBigShort said:


> In other words, a track record of repeated prescriptions, GP visits, suicidal tendencies, failure to get work, failure to hold down work, a psychologist assessment etc, would qualify someone for DA based on mental health grounds.
> I don't think it works the way you have described. If someone is out of work because they are depressed they get JSA or JSB benefit like anyone else. If they believe they cannot go to work at all because of the depression, that will require a greater assessment other than a single trip to the GP.


Medical confidentiality probably comes into that somewhere.
They should see an independent GP, just as an insurance company would want someone to see their doctor before they pay out.


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## RETIRED2017 (20 Feb 2018)

aristotle said:


> DA lasts up to two years before you then have to be re-assessed to go onto long term Disability. But yes, it is not v difficult to get DA for the first 2 years when mental health is used as the reason (if you are the type of person who wants to fraudulently claim it). Its not exactly possible to counter someone who says they are depressed and suicidal and therefore cannot work.


I am retired having worked up to 65 around 9 months ago after working almost 49 years .Since then I have gone on several Holidays in Ireland and overseas catering for people over 50 lots have not reached 65 yet one thing that stands out is almost all are drawing some kind of state benefit,

I am shocked at the amount that are happy to be doing the state out of money these are people who put there kids trough collage/University  any loophole the find they will use it to fund early retirement .the one word I hear all the time is about time I got something back from the state,

I don't share there views but I don't comment one way or the other,


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## TheBigShort (20 Feb 2018)

http://www.welfare.ie/en/pdf/da1.pdf

From page 27 is the medical report required by a GP to complete in order for an individual to claim DA.


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## aristotle (20 Feb 2018)

I might be on the wrong track here, it might have been illness benefit I am thinking of.


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## TheBigShort (20 Feb 2018)

RETIRED2017 said:


> I am retired having worked up to 65 around 9 months ago after working almost 49 years .Since then I have gone on several Holidays in Ireland and overseas catering for people over 50 lots have not reached 65 yet one thing that stands out is almost all are drawing some kind of state benefit,
> 
> I am shocked at the amount that are happy to be doing the state out of money these are people who put there kids trough collage any loophole the find they will use it to fund early retirement .the one word I hear all the time is about time I got something back from the state,



I am always shocked at how many people seem to meet other people on holiday and always seem to find out what welfare their entitlements are?
Ive been on holidays regularly and I cannot recall once, any discussion about welfare entitlements. I generally tend to try have a good time instead.


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## RETIRED2017 (20 Feb 2018)

TheBigShort said:


> I am always shocked at how many people seem to meet other people on holiday and always seem to find out what welfare their entitlements are?
> Ive been on holidays regularly and I cannot recall once, any discussion about welfare entitlements. I generally tend to try have a good time instead.


When you are retired and you are mixing with people who are  also the conversation are different,

Like you I have being on lots of holidays before I retired and the subject never came up, So hurry on and retire if you want to join the club while it is still being Funded,I can tell you We are having a ball and a good time,

We are not talking about Work we are talking why or who would  want to work any more  ,


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## noproblem (20 Feb 2018)

I'd say RTE could start another few "Talk To Joe" programmes , be great for audience figures and give the snowflakes another outlet or two to vent their upset at what they're not being given for nothing.


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## RETIRED2017 (20 Feb 2018)

noproblem said:


> I'd say RTE could start another few "Talk To Joe" programmes , be great for audience figures and give the snowflakes another outlet or two to vent their upset at what they're not being given for nothing.


O they are great they don't mind sure they are young yet,

well I hope someone will be good to them when there time comes ahh they will be all right don't you know don't you know ahh they will be fine, they don't mind, 

I hear they will have to pay in for forty years to get the full amount how  is that right when I only had to pay in for ten years times are changing don't you know don't you know noproblen to them sure they are young yet,


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## STEINER (20 Feb 2018)

[QUOTE="TheBigShort, post: 1556489

From page 27 is the medical report required by a GP to complete in order for an individual to claim DA.[/QUOTE]

No one on DA gets it without the medical report so it is not easy to get it.  Once a person is on it, especially with a chronic illness, that's it for life.

Drug addicts are on it, alcoholics (liver disease), COPD sufferers (mainly tobacco smoking damage) etc.

Cancer patients qualify and come off it if they recover and go back to work.

I'd say there are some people getting paid the DA who are not as bad as they let on and have improved healthwise since first claimed.  

Its just another payment from the DSP which needs auditing and the Public Sector overall is struggling to fill posts and the manpower is not available to perform 6 monthly or annual checks on everyone claiming various allowances or benefits..


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## TheBigShort (20 Feb 2018)

The medical report and application itself appear quite detailed and open to interpretation by independent assessors.

On the face of it, and I agree with what you say, DA is not something handed out very lightly. 
Makes you wonder however, how, as another poster said, that their friends could choose DA as their preferred welfare entitlement over JSA?


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## girlonamission (20 Feb 2018)

-People are living longer
-More recognised diagnosis
-and lets not forget our illnesses related to alcohol addiction (and drugs, sex, gambling). We are still the highest perscribers of Benzos in the EU. This along with other factors, facilitates a dependance on the Medical model of treatment for illnesses which may respond better with psychosocial models and prevention measures such as healthier lifestyle choices, mindfullness, self care in the worplace, etc...It is a whole lot harder to gain any DA payment in the last number of years, resulting in many genuinely ill people remaining on a Job Seekers payment and feeling the pressure from contracted companies such as Seetec.


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## Delboy (20 Feb 2018)

girlonamission said:


> It is a whole lot harder to gain any DA payment in the last number of years, resulting in many genuinely ill people remaining on a Job Seekers payment and feeling the pressure from contracted companies such as Seetec.


Imagine if it wasn't getting harder...that 50% rise in 10 years could have been 100% instead!


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## girlonamission (20 Feb 2018)

Indeed! But the problem as I see it, is in the assessment and application process of DA payments. There are people on Jobseekers allowance who are nearing 60 years of age, have an array of social and mental health difficulties and who, with pressure from DEASP and initiatives such as Job Path (who get paid per placement), are seeing DA as the ir only option, when really there is a need for another payment stream because (lets be honest) many have little chance, even with the right supports, of entering into the world of work in any significant way. It requires computer skills to apply for jobs, interview techniques, not to mention skills, qualifications and an elements of social, emotional and mental stability. It is too late for many of these individuals and the DEASP are wasting more money passing them from one department to another. Lessons need to be learned and in fairness, initiatives such as the youth gaurantee and many local succesfull programmes in areas with high unemployment, are successful (to a point) in breaking this cycle which has been passed down for generations. It's not right nor wrong, it is a result of ignoring the problem for too many years. Also recent research shows that there is only a very small percentage of welfare fraud in this Country.


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## RETIRED2017 (21 Feb 2018)

TheBigShort said:


> I'd be surprised if its as simple as that. Don't you need a medical assessment?
> 
> I mean, simply stating that you are 'suicidal' will probably get you a prescription for anti-depressants and maybe an appointment with a psychologist. It doesn't automatically equate to being "substantially restricted in undertaking work". A psychologist might well determine that the lack of employment is the root cause of the depression.
> 
> ...



I think is is a bit like the rent controls finishing up putting up rents on peopl
The department of social protection  protection will have sent out a Questionnaire form to fill up around six months before your Illness Benifit Finishes

The will ask  for your Medication and prescription list  they give you around a month to return Questionnaire  plenty of time to get extra prescriptions if so inclined to



The will also inform you that the information provided may be used to assess your entitlement to long term illness schemes
should you have any additional information and or medical evidence   e.g.  specialists' reports results of investagations etc which you wish to submit please attach copies.to assist the Department's medical assessor in there assessments. Time to get them if you don't have them if so inclined

Then you have to fill out the Questionnaire  Does  your Condition affect the activities of your typical day under the following headings by the time your finished filling it in you will know what needs to be done if you want to get paid once your Illness benefit ends if so inclined,

The first thing you will do if so inclined  is contact a professional to see if there is a loophole like the boys use for tax avoidance  in this case a doctor to see if there is a way around the system

The first thing the professional will ask when your great great grandmother died did you feel any anxiety are you still on a prescription for your anxiety when did it start affecting your work I need to update my records how many years ago since you first notice ,

I better get you to attend  that Public Hospital Specialist I know it is all clogged up but I will see can you be seen before your benefit runs out if not don't worry once you are waiting to be seen you will be grand,

The professional knows the system well so he will be waiting for  form  MRREP to arrive 

What is the first Question Indicate the degree to which the patient's condition has affected his/her ability in all the following areas First Mental Health/Behaviour .

 the very first Question and a few others is down to the patient doctor relationship the doctor can only go off what the patient tells them,Depending on what the patent tells the doctor will decide there entiitlement to long term illness schemes,

I still think most do not fall into the above bracket there will always be people who are looking for loopholes and there will always be people well paid to help them ,


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## Protocol (21 Feb 2018)

Thinking about the four people I know on DA.

None of them are disabled, in that they could all work *in some job.*

None of them want to work.

Three of the four have some issue, that could be stretched to be seen as a disability in some people's eyes.

One of the four simply had cancer in the past, but that in no way prevents them from working now.

Now, all of the four would not find it easy to find work, and would not be very employable.

So, in some sense, DA is being used to park people who might otherwise be on JSA.


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## Nermal (21 Feb 2018)

Interesting in light of the constant calls one hears for a universal basic income. We already have it, the only hurdle you have to jump is convincing a doctor you've got depression, back pain or some variant of chronic fatigue syndrome, which is not particularly difficult.


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## RETIRED2017 (21 Feb 2018)

Protocol said:


> Thinking about the four people I know on DA.
> 
> None of them are disabled, in that they could all work *in some job.*
> 
> ...



I suspect the doctor can also see they would not find it easy to find work he/she is not going to put them under stress no job/no money so the Doctor patient relationship click in I suspect the hardest part  was to get the doctor to sign the first cert within a few months the department will only require a cert every month which drifts into long term illness drifts into DA,or DB,


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## TheBigShort (21 Feb 2018)

You dont need to have an impairment that prevents you from working.
You need to be _substantially restricted _in undertaking work suitable to you. 
Eg. If im a painter & decorator but lose the use of an arm in an accident. Perhaps I get a job thereafter in a call centre? I can still claim DA. 
Its somewhat an acknowledgement that your options for what you are qualified and experienced at is now severely restricted. An acknowledgement that equality of opportunity in the labour market has been curtailed. 
Having said that, if I make enough money in the call centre I am means tested and the DA is reduced or withdrawn.



TheBigShort said:


> *Qualifying Conditions in Summary*
> To qualify for a Disability Allowance a person must:
> 
> 
> ...


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## TheBigShort (21 Feb 2018)

Protocol said:


> Three of the four have some issue, that could be stretched to be seen as a disability in some people's eyes.



Do you mind telling us what the conditions are?



Protocol said:


> Now, all of the four would not find it easy to find work, and would not be very employable.



Is this because of their disabilities or for other reasons?


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## fistophobia (22 Feb 2018)

I know 2 people who are on DA;

One is an alcoholic. She is delighted, as she is now free to do what she wants, without the DSP hounding her. 
Her Facebook is a constant whirl of social outings.

Another has a condition called ergophobia. He has not worked for 12 years, and is not looking for a job.

Both of these people are able-bodied, and could do a lot of jobs.


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## Purple (22 Feb 2018)

fistophobia said:


> Another has a condition called ergophobia.


I think a lot of people suffer from that!


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## Early Riser (22 Feb 2018)

What I take from this thread is that no one knows why there has been a "surge" in disability allowance claimants.

The proposal for further investigation is ,therefore, the correct one. While we may speculate in the meantime, any conclusions would be prejudice.


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## TheBigShort (22 Feb 2018)

fistophobia said:


> One is an alcoholic. She is delighted, as she is now free to do what she wants, without the DSP hounding her.





fistophobia said:


> Another has a condition called ergophobia.





fistophobia said:


> Both of these people are able-bodied, and could do a lot of jobs.



Every employers dream. 

My understanding with a disability with alcohilism is that it works two ways. Either you are still drinking or you are not. If you are clinically alcoholic and still drinking then you are not considered as being in the labour force. Not much use to employers if you are regularly hung-over or under the influence on the job. 
The other is that you are sober, and are actively seeking work. If you obtain work, your DA will eventually be means tested against your income.

As for ergophobia - I admit I had never heard of it before - I would imagine it would require some clinical and pyschological assessment to determine that condition before its considered? In other words, not the easiest of strokes to pull?


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## Purple (22 Feb 2018)

TheBigShort said:


> Every employers dream.


We have a couple of guys who have a bad relationship with alcohol. They probably miss a day a week. They are highly skilled and would have to be paid far more if they were no drinkers so it can work, as long as you look at the value you get from them overall and not just their time keeping.


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## TheBigShort (22 Feb 2018)

Purple said:


> We have a couple of guys who have a bad relationship with alcohol. They probably miss a day a week. They are highly skilled and would have to be paid far more if they were no drinkers so it can work, as long as you look at the value you get from them overall and not just their time keeping.



I dont doubt it. There are many examples of alcoholics performing not only to the best of their ability, but to the best in their respective field.
English football, from George Best up to '80's, '90's has plenty of examples of this.

Alcoholism only really becomes a problem, when it becomes a problem (if you get what I mean?).
Broadly speaking, it is a slow-burning ailment. Its seeds are planted early, but it could be years, even decades, before it manifests itself into a problem.


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## Purple (22 Feb 2018)

TheBigShort said:


> Broadly speaking, it is a slow-burning ailment. Its seeds are planted early, but it could be years, even decades, before it manifests itself into a problem.


Though in young people it is usually immediate and severe.


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## odyssey06 (22 Feb 2018)

As things stand an employer can legally retire someone at 60 without justification, even if they could still physically perform their job. As far as I'm concerned, that would mean I'm legally disabled from working so I'd be applying for DA...

https://employmentrightsireland.com/tag/retirement-age/


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## shweeney (22 Feb 2018)

it's a difficult problem to tackle - they've gone after so called "spurious" DA claims in the UK and the papers are full of stories of people having their benefit cutoff while undergoing chemotherapy, or dying shortly after losing their benefits, or committing suicide. The consequences of getting it wrong are horrendous. With low-skilled jobs becoming scarcer it's easier for the govt to allow DA numbers to drift up; whilst there may be many recipients who could do "something" are there actually jobs there for them?


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## dereko1969 (22 Feb 2018)

odyssey06 said:


> As things stand an employer can legally retire someone at 60 without justification, even if they could still physically perform their job. As far as I'm concerned, that would mean I'm legally disabled from working so I'd be applying for DA...
> 
> https://employmentrightsireland.com/tag/retirement-age/


You could apply for it but you wouldn't get it. Forced retirement by a private company is not a disability.


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## Black Sheep (4 Mar 2018)

DA is the preferred payment over JA because of the extra Benefits attached.

     Household Benefit (Free Electricity & TV Lic.)
     Free Travel
     Medical Card
     Fuel Allowance


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## TheBigShort (4 Mar 2018)

Black Sheep said:


> DA is the preferred payment over JA because of the extra Benefits attached.
> 
> Household Benefit (Free Electricity & TV Lic.)
> Free Travel
> ...



You do realise you need to meet the criteria of a disabled person before the DA is afforded to you?


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## Purple (5 Mar 2018)

TheBigShort said:


> You do realise you need to meet the criteria of a disabled person before the DA is afforded to you?


So we are back to the question of why there has been such a large increase.
It would be interesting to know how long people spend on DA and how long they spent on DA 10 years ago (and if there is a difference then why).


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