# Where are the IT jobs?



## D8Lady (28 Jan 2009)

I keep hearing about the thousands of vacancies in IT - so where are they?!

My last contract ended just before Christmas, took a few weeks off and now am hitting the agencies etc. 

They are all saying that things are very "quiet" - talk about understatement.....

So where would a talented (such as myself) QA/BA/PM with software, telco, banking, eLearning and innovative R&D experience find just one job?

Anyone have any ideas?


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## doberden (29 Jan 2009)

There are very few IT jobs with lots of people looking for them.

If you see an IT job advertised on Irishjobs/monster etc the chances are that the agency will get a lot of applications within a couple of minutes.

Your best way of getting a job is to start connecting with all the people you worked with and let them know that you are available and looking for work.  Some jobs will come up but most won't be filled through an agency.  Why fill a job through an agency if you are working in a company that knows loads of good people out of work.

If want contract work then you need to get out there and start networking with companies.  A lot of contractors have been let go and a lot of projects are on hold.  You want these companies to have your business card when this contract comes up.  Why would they go to agencies and pay 10 to 20% above the going rate when they have your business card.

Finally, don't expect to get a job in a couple of weeks, the above process will take a few months unless you are lucky.  In the short term go through all your expenses and see how you can trim back, you will need your money to last as long as possible.

Good luck!


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## FutureProof (29 Jan 2009)

You probably keep hearing it on those adverts for IT training or something. Their claims are quite outdated in the current climate


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## D8Lady (29 Jan 2009)

Thanks for the reply doberden. It sort of confirms what I already know...
I have about 2-3 months before I have to start dipping into savings. That'll last another 3 months or so. 
I hope it won't take that long. I've already rented out rooms in the house.

I even bought loads of seeds yesterday for my vegetable garden


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## D8Lady (29 Jan 2009)

Some one should tell students and the [broken link removed]t what its really like.

"Ireland has been facing a growing shortage of graduates in technical disciplines, even though computer scientists, electronic engineers, and IT professionals have excellent career options."


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## mallow (29 Jan 2009)

D8Lady said:


> Some one should tell students and the [broken link removed]t what its really like.
> 
> "Ireland has been facing a growing shortage of graduates in technical disciplines, even though computer scientists, electronic engineers, and IT professionals have excellent career options."



You should read the law section from the edition that was in.  They quoted the Law Society as working hard to persuade firms to take on trainees!  Of course a law firm is going to be taking business advice from their regulatory body and do their civic duty by providing traineeships....


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## gearoid (29 Jan 2009)

The Irish Software Association are always saying there are thousands of posts available.

The truth is work is very thin on the ground at present. I am seeing IT Architects with 15-20 years experience unemployed at present.

In four years time things may be very different so I think it is right for people to start studying IT now, though it is a very tough business at times.

It is pointless saying whether someone should do a university course taking a number of years based on the current job situation. 

I was full-time when the last big IT recession hit, but I'm contracting now so might be taking a "sabbatical" soon as well.


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## jhegarty (29 Jan 2009)

These 1000s of unfilled jobs never really existed. 

What did exist was companies who wanted senior developers with 10+ years experience in new technologies to work for 20k. 

And call centre jobs. There was lots of those.


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## Bubbly Scot (29 Jan 2009)

D8Lady said:


> I keep hearing about the thousands of vacancies in IT - so where are they?!



I'd like to know too. Mr Bubbly got laid off his last contract just before Christmas and it's only this week that a couple (literally) of roles have been put forward by the agencies. He's a BA/PM too. He's been working almost full time at just finding contracts he can apply for, keeping in touch with the agents and touching base with ex collegues, some of whom are in the same boat.

He's hopeful though, these bank mergers etc. will all generate work...eventually!. Stick with it. Now's the time to get that vegetable garden organised and work on all those little jobs around the house you couldn't get to...at least that's what I keep telling Mr Bubbly


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## AlbacoreA (29 Jan 2009)

Most of the time its agencies and colleges, claiming theres loads of jobs (epecially in IT) when there isn't. So always look at who is claiming this and who earns money by claiming it. Follow the money. Also a lot of companies will complain theres not enough people with experience and the right skillset. But yet they won't take on graduates, or train people up. Even experienced people need to constantly retrain, yet few places make provision for this.


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## amgd28 (29 Jan 2009)

I founded a software company about 2.5 years ago and had to set up an offshore base in order to get talented developers, BA's, Testers and PM's as there was just no-one available with good experience/ability here (those that did were all in jobs on really good salaries.. who wouldn't even think of joining a startup)

NOW....we are one of the few firms hiring and our existing guys here (hired last year as the company revenues increased, a mix of graduates and experienced guys) are getting raises, because they bit the bullet and took what was perceived as a risk in joining us. Since Christmas in particular, despite not advertising, I am getting lots of CV's from really good and experienced IT people. The worm has turned and it is no longer an employee's market. 
Obviously as an employer that's great for me right now, but it is a rather sad reflection on how suddenly things have turned in the general economy and I can't say I'm happy about that. I do sympathise with the OP's predicament and I can only hope things sort themselves out for the many hundreds/thousands out there in a similar situation.

I would advise to have a long look at your CV, does it really reflect your experience and what you have achieved? Does it understate or overstate the actuality (one is as bad as the other)? Can you demonstrate to an employer that you'll do 'whatever it takes' to get a job done (within reason)?

If a CV reflects talent, hunger and willingness to improve, I'll always have a look even if I don't have a pressing need for a particular position, because having those three attributes mean the candidate will add value to a company. For a company that is not on a growth path and nervous about hiring, but has to for operation reasons, such attributes in a candidate are even more important...so make sure your CV screams these things, but be prepared to back them up in an interview


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## D8Lady (29 Jan 2009)

AlbacoreA said:


> But yet they won't take on graduates, or train people up. Even experienced people need to constantly retrain, yet few places make provision for this.



That's one of the reasons I started contracting (and multiple redundances 2001-2002), companies just didn't train people. At least I could decide what training I wanted and could expense it.

I think the reality of the situation is just really hitting home today.


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## Eblanoid (29 Jan 2009)

amgd28 said:


> I founded a software company about 2.5 years ago and had to set up an offshore base in order to get talented developers, BA's, Testers and PM's as there was just no-one available with good experience/ability here (those that did were all in jobs on really good salaries.. who wouldn't even think of joining a startup)



Classic: you complain that there was nobody with good ability/experience, and then perpetuated the problem by setting up abroad, thereby ensuring that few Irish could gain experience.  Are you sure that lower wages wasn't your main reason for setting up abroad?

Why would any Irish schoolgoer bother investing his/her time in an IT course when it was so difficult to get an IT job even during the boom times, and knowing that his/her starting salary, if a job was available, would probably be less than that of a trainee Dublin Bus driver (~€32,000 according to DB ads in 2007).

And yes, I do have issues:


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## amgd28 (29 Jan 2009)

Training for training sake is not something that a company should do. But if the training makes their people more productive, and hence the company more competitive in the market, then the clever companies are able to see the value in that. I think in the last 6 months alone, each guy on my team has been on at least one significant (2-3 days) course. But they've paid it back very quickly by adding some capability that we couldn't offer as a company before they had done the releveant course.

I also interviewed a person a few months ago (for a BA job). she had decent sectoral experience and had a software development degree, so on paper, she was a good fit. In the interview, she came across well, but I was keen to see whether she would add value, by coming up with ideas around new products or new processes that would feed into our R&D activities. So I asked her to think of the department/section she worked in before and in the light of the inefficiencies she spoke about in the interview, draw out a process of how it could be done so much better. I didn't put her on the spot, I told her she could just send it in when she had time to think about it. I effectively told her that if she did this, she'd get the job.
No contact since...I believe she is still looking for a job. 

The point I am trying to make is that a candidate who isn't willing to do something relatively straightforward to get a job, would hardly light up the place if she/he did get the job, so the decision was made. By her. Unfortunately due to the kinds of press releases about vacancies highlighted by the OP, the average candidate does not think that they need to try too hard to get the job, and until people with that mindset change, then they will remain looking for work rather than working. Alternatively, there are candidates that are working on contract, and when looking for permanency seek a salary which is commensurate with contracting. Such expectations need to be re-calibrated.


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## amgd28 (29 Jan 2009)

Eblanoid said:


> Classic: you complain that there was nobody with good ability/experience, and then perpetuated the problem by setting up abroad, thereby ensuring that few Irish could gain experience.  Are you sure that lower wages wasn't your main reason for setting up abroad?



I advertised and sought graduates, to no avail. I posted roles on graduate forums and gradireland.com and sent specs to colleges. I got a total of 9 CV's. Only one was an EU citizen. And he was polish.
I made offers to three graduates but noone wanted a sensible salary (late 20's, early thirties, depending on candidate). They all felt they could do better contracting.

I have since hired two graduates, I take intra placements every year, and I provide for hiring a decent intra when they actually graduate. I am sponsoring last year's intra student's final year project.

So lose the attitude


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## AlbacoreA (29 Jan 2009)

amgd28 said:


> I founded a software company about 2.5 years ago and had to set up an offshore base in order to get talented developers, BA's, Testers and PM's as there was just no-one available with good experience/ability here (those that did were all in jobs on really good salaries.. who wouldn't even think of joining a startup)
> 
> NOW....we are one of the few firms hiring and our existing guys here (hired last year as the company revenues increased, a mix of graduates and experienced guys) are getting raises, because they bit the bullet and took what was perceived as a risk in joining us. Since Christmas in particular, despite not advertising, I am getting lots of CV's from really good and experienced IT people. The worm has turned and it is no longer an employee's market. ...


 
I think that story is best summed up, is the market will only pay, what the market will pay. Which is fair enough. Likewise you have to pay more for to get and keep better people. Its just economics.


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## sam h (29 Jan 2009)

> So I asked her to think of the department/section she worked in before and in the light of the inefficiencies she spoke about in the interview, draw out a process of how it could be done so much better. I didn't put her on the spot, I told her she could just send it in when she had time to think about it. I effectively told her that if she did this, she'd get the job.


 
What an excellent question!!  Great way to see if they can spot & solve inefficencies!  We used to do "brown bag" lunches with staff and rather than just being a venting opportunity for them, we would ask them to suggest solutions....they often came up with some excellent ideas that generally worked really well.


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## AlbacoreA (29 Jan 2009)

amgd28 said:


> ...The point I am trying to make is that a candidate who isn't willing to do something relatively straightforward to get a job, would hardly light up the place if she/he did get the job, so the decision was made. By her. Unfortunately due to the kinds of press releases about vacancies highlighted by the OP, the average candidate does not think that they need to try too hard to get the job, and until people with that mindset change, then they will remain looking for work rather than working. Alternatively, there are candidates that are working on contract, and when looking for permanency seek a salary which is commensurate with contracting. Such expectations need to be re-calibrated.


 
I don't disagree. However I'd add that is common enough to have people waste your time, with proof of concept and demo work, when they have no intention of hiring you. So I can imagine some people would be wary of this. In contracting a months paid trial/proof of concepty is often part of the contract. That usually works out well. Of course if you've nothing else, thats a different situation.


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## Bubbly Scot (29 Jan 2009)

amgd28 said:


> I founded a software company about 2.5 years ago and had to set up an offshore base in order to get talented developers, BA's, Testers and PM's as there was just no-one available with good experience/ability here..........
> 
> NOW....we are one of the few firms hiring ........



I can't help thinking you're going to get hit by a small mountain of CV's after that post!


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## D8Lady (29 Jan 2009)

amgd28, 
PM sent to you.


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## WhatsGoingOn (3 Feb 2009)

[broken link removed]


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## Flax (5 Feb 2009)

WhatsGoingOn said:


> [broken link removed]



I'm nearly certain they just laid off a bunch of people.


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## WhatsGoingOn (5 Feb 2009)

deleted


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## gearoid (5 Feb 2009)

WhatsGoingOn said:


> Only those that deserved it


This was a rather stupid and insulting comment if anyone was actually let go by this company!


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## cindilu (19 Feb 2009)

I have been getting the same treatment from recruiters.  It's very difficult to even get a recruiter on the phone and I have had NO responses to any of the apps/CV's I've sent in.

I'm in technical support and have been told here that I have "too much" experience which to me is code for "you're too old".  I'm lucky that I'm at least working part-time but I really need a full-time job to make ends meet.

I've even tried websites that say they have "global" or "worldwide" jobs but none of them list Ireland.  They list other countries like the UK and other european countries but not Ireland.  It's as if we don't exist here or there's a closed market here or something.  I called a company in the U.S. because they advertised technical support from home.  I thought they would consider me especially since I'm a U.S. citizen but they said no as did many others I contacted.  So what's up with "global" or "worldwide" jobs?  Where the heck are they?


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## mainasia (22 Feb 2009)

sam h said:


> What an excellent question!!  Great way to see if they can spot & solve inefficencies!  We used to do "brown bag" lunches with staff and rather than just being a venting opportunity for them, we would ask them to suggest solutions....they often came up with some excellent ideas that generally worked really well.



I think it depends on the role. Sometimes you should focus on the point that the person is applying for a role as 'software engineer' and not 'department manager'. That person has no intention to be department manager and is most probably not qualified. In addition, the salary you are offering is not equal to the strategic position that you are asking her to vet for. I don't agree with your method to be honest, it has been used on my wife who is a very hard and smart worker, she had to leave a job because the employer kept pushing her to 'add value' within 3 weeks of joining and at lowest salary scale! The employer lost out big time because she is very experienced, they asked her to consult now about problems whereas if they had backed off and let her do the essential job she was hired for they wouldn't be scrounging around with lesser candidates and wasting time.

I live outside Ireland so the high salaries of Irish graduates has been more obvious to me over the last few years. You can't blame people for taking higher paid jobs if they are available, that makes sense in some ways. You hired cheaper people overseas so you played exactly the game they did. Now the shoe is on the other foot and I do think it's good that you can grow your own business.

To the last poster, some good websites to try for a global overview are careerjet.com and simplyhired.com The aggregate other job-site postings. The main issue at the moment is Ireland is haeomorraging jobs and as the population is small it goes from a medium level of overall jobs available to almost none in a lot of specialities, that's why big metro centres like London will always have more opp's, due to their scale.


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## dtlyn (22 Feb 2009)

D8Lady said:


> I keep hearing about the thousands of vacancies in IT - so where are they?!
> 
> My last contract ended just before Christmas, took a few weeks off and now am hitting the agencies etc.
> 
> ...



I had a very interesting conversation with only on Friday about cost cutting reviews conducted over the past few months. Value for money from Business Analysis and Project Management staff was a prominent disscussion point. An opinion was expressed that well rounded software engineering teams organised and cultured to some of the newer engineering methodologies could cut accross the need for dedicated BAs or PMs. I would possibly agree with that in the context of my company, but the definition of a BA or PM varies widely accross different companies, so I don't think I could generalise. My point is my company has seen your area of expertise as an opportunity to manage costs. 

Judging from the recent comments of Havok CEO and Googles refusal to locate 100 Computer Science jobs here and the opinions expressed by my own IT Manager, I have a feeling that what is really in demand accross the industry is quality Computer Science graduates with a passion for technologies and problem solving. Highly technical people who self-train out of interest and see such learning not only as an expense to be written off against tax but an opportunity to expand their interests. People Moreover, the type of graduate that got into the business for the work, and not the money. 

In my opinion, ff you see yourself in the above category then, keep looking, you'll def find something.

The more experience I get in the industry, the more I can see that the above profile is quite a rare but highly valued commodity.


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## D8Lady (22 Feb 2009)

Cindilu:  Employers are taking their time about making decisions when CVs are obtained by an agency for a role. As a result, the job isn’t closed on the job search sites.  These ads are refreshed every 2 days or so. It gives the impression that there are plenty of ads out there when there aren’t.
  It would not surprise me if a number of agencies start going to the wall soon.

  dtlyn: I agree that the role definition of BA or PM varies between companies. If someone is a total technologist, they generally do not want to get into contract negotiations, personnel issues, strategic  and implementation planning,  dealing with customers etc. A good PM will keep all of that “noise” away from a development team to ensure the team can focus on their core expertise.

   One of the problems with the idea that “well rounded software engineering teams...cut across the need to dedicated BAs or PMs” is that they see the technology development as an end in itself. 

  Example: Say you have a project to restructure an organisation that is technology enabled. Technologists will deliver a product (perhaps even on time, reasonable quality) and that would be it. They won’t anticipate problems with unions, training of people to use the product, transitioning legacy systems to the new system nor how it will be sustained in the future.  That’s what a good PM will sort out.  

  The biggest cause of IT project failure is the lack of clearly defined, well communicated and delivered requirements.   That’s what a good BA will produce.


The[broken link removed] has become a classic example of this.


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## dtlyn (22 Feb 2009)

D8Lady said:


> dtlyn: I agree that the role definition of BA or PM varies between companies. If someone is a total technologist, they generally do not want to get into contract negotiations, personnel issues, strategic  and implementation planning,  dealing with customers etc. A good PM will keep all of that “noise” away from a development team to ensure the team can focus on their core expertise.
> 
> One of the problems with the idea that “well rounded software engineering teams...cut across the need to dedicated BAs or PMs” is that they see the technology development as an end in itself.
> 
> ...


 
I agree with mostly on PMs in the context you're considering, however I disagree that dealing with the customer and implementation planning should be considered "noise" by a well rounded S/W engineering team. I would have though the contrary to be true. I have seen quite a few PM roles that have consisted of no more than takers of minutes and documentation of timelines that are ultimately driven by the S/W team. ​ 
I agree with you on good Business Analysis, although I would add the ability to manage changing requirements or possibly changing requirements. I also,however, would consider the BA role a subset of the S/W Eng role. 

Lets not get off topic though!


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## Purple (22 Feb 2009)

dtlyn said:


> Highly technical people who self-train out of interest and see such learning not only as an expense to be written off against tax but an opportunity to expand their interests. People Moreover, the type of graduate that got into the business for the work, and not the money.
> 
> In my opinion, ff you see yourself in the above category then, keep looking, you'll def find something.
> 
> The more experience I get in the industry, the more I can see that the above profile is quite a rare but highly valued commodity.



Excellent post which holds true for many jobs.
Different area but despite the recession we cannot get people with the right skill level in Ireland and have to hire on the mainland and in the UK.


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## Chocks away (22 Feb 2009)

Purple said:


> Excellent post which holds true for many jobs.
> Different area but despite the recession we cannot get people with the right skill level in Ireland and have to hire on the mainland and in the UK.


"and have to hire on the mainland and in the UK"! Where do you operate from, Skellig Michael?


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## Purple (22 Feb 2009)

The European main land. (We are a small island situated off the coast of Europe in case you haven't noticed).


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## Chocks away (22 Feb 2009)

Cripes! Sorry about that. Had forgotten. It just looked funny.


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## D8Lady (22 Feb 2009)

dtlyn said:


> Lets not get off topic though!



Agreed .

Apart from the usual techniques, we also need to get creative. 
The Digital Hub are looking for [broken link removed] in addition to those they [broken link removed].
Looking at start ups in [broken link removed] are worth a look.
And a bit of old fashioned personal networking.


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## Purple (22 Feb 2009)

Chocks away said:


> Cripes! Sorry about that. Had forgotten. It just looked funny.



OK, I’ll come clean; when talking to English people I always refer to main land Europe as “The Main Land” since they use the same term to describe that other small Island off the coast of Europe that they live on.


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## Bubbly Scot (20 Apr 2009)

Ressurecting this thread just to say Mr Bubbly secured a contract with one of the big insurance companies as a BA.

Have to say though, it took a lot of work, there seems to be a few contracts out there but to be honest this was his first interview for a couple of months.

He reckons the market is slowly picking up though and a few months from now there will be more contracts and rates will go up too.

I know how hard it is right now, and not just in the IT sector, I wish all job hunters every success.


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## gearoid (21 Apr 2009)

Congrats Bubbly!

I've seen precious little in the last few weeks. I got a call from a consultancy last week to see whether I was in the market or not, but that's the first contact in months!

I'm hanging in there for now on a maintenance contract in the insurance sector. Dull but it keeps me going.

Not to change the subject but what's going on with Eircom is very disappointing.

We want major bandwidth to secure future jobs and it looks as if Eircom has no money for any rollout. Eamon Ryan is talking of getting 3MB broadband via mobile. Those cloud computing jobs look a long way away.


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