# have you changed from oil ch to calorgas



## gailey (17 Feb 2011)

Have you changed from oil central heating to calorgas?
If so 
How much did it cost to convert?
Were you happy you changed?
Is your house warmer?
How expensive are you bills per year?
How did you find customer services?
I would love to get some feedback on this. We are trying to decide whether to change.
We are finding the oil very expensive and not keeping the house warm. House is already well insulated. House is a 5 bed dormer detached about 2000sq ft.


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## mercman (17 Feb 2011)

We changed from Calor to Flogas where the gas was cheaper and moreover a better company to deal with. No matter who you go with do NOT  sign a contract where it could take you five years if you wished to change supplier.


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## gailey (17 Feb 2011)

hi Mercman
What would your heating costs be per year. Did you originally change over from oil. I paid last winter 2000 euro between sept and now and we are out of oil again. We are also lighting an open fire most days and still the house isnt always warm. We are looking at different options at the moment and I would like to know as much as possible before we commit


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## mercman (17 Feb 2011)

The house was on Calor when we purchased same. Unable to compare as this is not a normal house. However we are in the midst of changing boilers to more efficient ones which are meant to be 35% cheaper to run.


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## angela59 (17 Feb 2011)

Hi,

I would also like to know as am also thinking of switching over from oil to LPG.  Calor are doing a big promotion at the moment and offering incentives but like OP would like more information before I jump.

TIA

angela59


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## mercman (17 Feb 2011)

From the dealings I had with Calor, they will refuse to supply LPG unless and until a supply contract is signed. I found that their pricing was off the wall so do not become sucked in by promotions and then find the supply price is to high.


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## angela59 (17 Feb 2011)

Just on that the price per liter of LPG at the moment inclusive of VAT and carbon tax with CALOR is 0.70 cents and I checked with Flogas and it is 0.8495 inclusive of carbon tax but not vat.  Unlike oil, LPG seems to be hard to get prices per liter when I google it - are there only two players in Ireland?

Angela59


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## Graftgirl (17 Feb 2011)

gailey said:


> hi Mercman
> What would your heating costs be per year. Did you originally change over from oil. I paid last winter 2000 euro between sept and now and we are out of oil again. We are also lighting an open fire most days and still the house isnt always warm. We are looking at different options at the moment and I would like to know as much as possible before we commit



Exactly the same as my home and I am shocked that we are going to order more oil, lighting the fire too for cosiness. We have decided to install a stove instead of the fireplace so that there will be more efficiency, apparently we have zoned heating but we have never been able to use it so going to get thermostats fitted etc so that we can at least isolate the upstairs heating from the downstairs(upstairs heating is not necessary to be on as much as the downstairs in most homes)
Also we have someone calling next week from an insulation company to discuss having the walls pumped with insulation, the oil is just such a waste of money now that I want to try to halve the amount we need to order..


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## DGOBS (17 Feb 2011)

Properly zoned heat should work WITH thermostats for boiler interlock, if not any saving would be minimal

All calculations point to off-mains gas being MORE expensive than oil, if you looking to save money on heating start with insulation, less heat loss, less heating required


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## gailey (17 Feb 2011)

I also have someone coming out to talk about insulation so we will probably be getting walls pumped and attic insulated. will also like to see what the promotion with calorgas is llike. seems like its hard to find someone who has changed over. please anyone???
Looking into all options at the moment including the stove.


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## angela59 (17 Feb 2011)

I have had two quotes from registered installers and they were exhorbitant to say the least even with the grant deducted it would be a while paying back if I went with one of them.  So we will insulate the attic ourselves and I'm looking in to switching to LPG and installing new burner.  My understanding is that LPG isn't as expensive as the oil but rises when oil prices rise but the carbon tax is half the price that for oil.  Again I would love to hear from anyone that has switched.

Angela59


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## Why-o-why?? (17 Feb 2011)

I am thinking of changing too? I have a kerosene condense boiler 94% eff.
but i am getting extensive works done inc ufh throughout the house, nat gas is not available to me so i looked into lpg, but the kw output of nat gas is 66% less than lpg gas per m3, (bord gais sell by the kwh)  but anyone know what the calorific value of kerosene is per litre by comparason of lpg per litre?
If so a could link would help me LOADS. 
Thanks Guys!!!!!


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## DGOBS (17 Feb 2011)

approx 35.000 kj/kg for kero

Using cv's is works out in cost terms cheapest to dearest
Nat Gas
Kero
LPG

Fuel prices tend to follow each other, when oil goes up, so do a gas fuels a quick as they can follow IMHO


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## Shane007 (17 Feb 2011)

1 Litre of Kerosene = 10.35 kWh
1 Litre of Kerosene = 0.79kg
1 kg of Kerosene = 13.10 kW/kg

DGOBS is absolutely correct, Nat Gas is cheapest, then Kerosene and then LPG. Gas will always follow oil prices.


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## DGOBS (17 Feb 2011)

If I was considering a changeover, I would most likely stay with an oil boiler, but look at an air/water heatpump as a main heating source, backup when needed by the oil boiler


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## Why-o-why?? (18 Feb 2011)

Stay away from heat pumps... they can be soul destroying. Trust me. they can quadruple your electrticity demands, difficult to source parts. stick to the simple principles,


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## Why-o-why?? (18 Feb 2011)

What is LPG kw per litre?


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## angela59 (18 Feb 2011)

Just on that the price per liter of LPG at the moment inclusive of VAT and carbon tax with CALOR is 0.70 cents and I checked with Flogas and it is 0.8495 inclusive of carbon tax but not vat. Unlike oil, LPG seems to be hard to get prices per liter when I google it - are there only two players in Ireland?

Angela59 
​


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## huskerdu (18 Feb 2011)

gailey said:


> I also have someone coming out to talk about insulation so we will probably be getting walls pumped and attic insulated. will also like to see what the promotion with calorgas is llike. seems like its hard to find someone who has changed over. please anyone???
> Looking into all options at the moment including the stove.



In your original message, you stated that the house was well insulated and now you say that you are considering getting insulation installed. 

A changeover of your heating system will cost thousands. You would want to be very sure that a gas system is a lot better than your current system before commiting.  Even if you save 20% on your annual bills, it will take years to recoup the cost of the installation. 

How old is your house ?
How old is your oil boiler ?
What insulation do you have ?
What sort of windows do you have ?


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## Trilogy 1982 (18 Feb 2011)

LPG 7.1 kWh per litre


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## DGOBS (18 Feb 2011)

WoW, heat pumps are a sound proven technology, the issue with them causing huge bills is usually down to installers not setting them up correctly causing huge a huge draw on electricity demand, and as regards parts, well it depends on which you buy (I have been 3 weeks trying to get a component for a Sun oil burner!!)


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## villa 1 (18 Feb 2011)

Is it not a fact that the COP of air to water heat pumps diminishes during very cold air temperatures, as we had recently.
Discuss


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## Shane007 (18 Feb 2011)

villa 1 said:


> Is it not a fact that the COP of air to water heat pumps diminishes during very cold air temperatures, as we had recently.
> Discuss


 
Villa1 is absolutely correct. Air to water heat pumps will not operate and will shut down with temperatures below -10C. A back up heat source is definitely a must.

With regard to parts, any reputable manufacturer will have a decent back up service.

Me personally, I am not a lover of any type of heat pump. Too many crucial data must be adhered to for them to run efficiently. ∆T on the air side and the ∆T on the wet side are crucial. If installer does not allow for fluctuations in this, it will have expensive results. Danfoss make a decent one that has a built in automated controller to maximize the most efficient ∆T, but it is not released yet. Me thinks in a couple of months or so.

What the promoters of heat pumps do not highlight is this wee little electric 4kW element that kicks in when system is underperforming and this is often. This 4kW element is expensive to run and trying to heat a whole house.

Air to water heat pumps, in my opinion, are only suited to smaller properties and apartments.

More buyer be more educated than buyer beware!


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## DGOBS (18 Feb 2011)

Did I not suggest it with retaining the oil boiler as a back up! (me thinks I did)

A very good, and knowledgeable friend of mine sat me down recently and explained why, from setup some can cause huge esb bills, I would love to say I understood it all, but alas a lot went over my head and gone. He then went got and installed his own setup as he suggested and is happy as a pig in muck with it (wonder if he would tell me if was all gone wrong though!)

PS, his is a 5 bed detached house! But in truth I dont know enough about them to comment further, so will bow down to the 2 posters above.....


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## Shane007 (19 Feb 2011)

DGOBS said:


> Did I not suggest it with retaining the oil boiler as a back up! (me thinks I did)


 
You most certainly did.

I just find that unless the house is extremely well insulated, in that it can be heated by a candle, a heat pump cannot keep up with the heat loss. Fitted to a standard average insulated house of say 75w/m², it will not be able to keep up the losses. Remember, they are normally sized at circa 8kW, some 10 or 12. Getting into the 15kW range they are very expensive to run. A 10kW heat pump will have a 2.5kW motor, then when the 4kW element kicks in, it's now 6.5kW. Would you boil 3 kettles continuously for say 10 hours a day? (That's a modest consumption daily time)

When the outside ambient temperatures are warmer, then yes, it will not require the backup, but in winter, they are generally not and the back up will kick in a lot more than you think.

A 75w/m² heat loss property will require an input of approx 15kW + allowance for DWH. I understand that you do not have the rapid heat response requirement, but a radiator that is installed with a design average temperature of 60°C, now only getting 30°C (even on 10 hours/day), it will struggle to keep up with the loss of the room.

This is the what they are promoting; in that it can be retrofitted to heat radiators but I just don't buy it. I am open to be proven wrong, but it will have to be backed up with theory and calculations.

A good test would be to put an injection control valve set to 30°C to your flow pipe from an oil boiler and see if it will maintain the heat within the house. (You will also have to put a mixing valve between the flow and return before the ICV to protect the boiler).


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## DGOBS (19 Feb 2011)

I will ask the guy to see will he contribute here, would be interesting to see can he further this, again this would not be my forte at all


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## Why-o-why?? (21 Feb 2011)

well then,
If lpg is 7.1 kwh per litre and kerosene is 10.35kwh per litre and you have a 93- 95% effeceincy boiler , lpg will be  over 30% less effecient even if cost of both were the same per litre??? am i getting this right??


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## Trilogy 1982 (21 Feb 2011)

Why-o-why?? said:


> well then,
> If lpg is 7.1 kwh per litre and kerosene is 10.35kwh per litre and you have a 93- 95% effeceincy boiler , lpg will be over 30% less effecient even if cost of both were the same per litre??? am i getting this right??


 
Kind of.

If both boilers have the same efficiencies then you will need around 30%less litres of oil than LPG to get the same quantity of heat.

If both fuels are the same price per litre then oil will be 30% less expensive to heat your home with BUT the LPG price should be lower to reflect the differences in calorific values.

Price the fuels in kWh and make your decision based on that.


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## Shane007 (21 Feb 2011)

Trilogy 1982 said:


> Price the fuels in kWh and make your decision based on that.


 
Very true, Trilogy. Always base comparisons on kWh. No matter what the input is, the demand will be the same. Do your calculations based on how much it will cost to satisfy your demand in kWh.

Also take in consideration the efficiency of the boiler. If a particular boiler is only 70% efficient and another is 95%, then in addition to cost per kwh, there will be an additional saving in wastage or lack of it!

You don't want to be spending €1,000 on a fuel and burning a third of it up the flue.


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