# Opinion and Discussion: Household Charge.



## Time

I foresee a lot of non payment of this charge.


----------



## Dunlin3

They may end up sticking on utility bills like they did in Greece.


----------



## tester1

I agree. Its just one charge too many. 
I pay everything I am supposed to ie telly, road tax, my own/family health insurance, other insurances. 

But to pay this just makes me sick. I have to pay for the right to have my own house, that I am already paying a mortgage for!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Dunlin3

tester1 said:


> I agree. Its just one charge too many.
> I pay everything I am supposed to ie telly, road tax, my own/family health insurance, other insurances.
> 
> But to pay this just makes me sick. I have to pay for the right to have my own house, that I am already paying a mortgage for!!!!!!!!!!



Call it a council tax or local authority charge then...make you feel better!


----------



## Time

How will it be enforced?


----------



## chrisboy

Can they deduct the household tax from the huge stamp duty i paid 5 years ago?


----------



## Time

LOL! I doubt it.


----------



## Dunlin3

chrisboy said:


> Can they deduct the household tax from the huge stamp duty i paid 5 years ago?



I think people like you should get a discount on the new household charge, can't see it though. The previous property tax where people had to pay it up  front by borrowing and paying interest on it was a crazy unfair  system. A yearly charge will be much fairer. I know people paid tens of  thousands in the last ten years but many more paid little or nothing.  There's no easy way to square this circle.


----------



## uptomyeyesin

I wonder is there a loophole for apartment owners where the estate has not been taken in charge by the Local Authority?

If the tax is for the LA and they are not maintaining the estate, can they charge owners for this non existent service?


The Minister shall not prescribe a list for the purposes of this
section unless he or she is satisfied that each of the developments
specified in the list is incomplete to a substantial extent, and the 20
Minister shall, for the purpose of so satisfying himself or herself,
have regard to all relevant circumstances, including—
.....
the extent to which roads, open spaces, car parks, sewers,
watermains, drains or other public facilities in the
development have been taken in charge by the local authority concerned, and
(h) where there is an agreement with the local authority con- 40
cerned relating to the maintenance of roads, open spaces,
car parks, sewers, watermains, drains or other public
facilities in the development, the extent to which there
has been compliance with the conditions for maintenance
under the agreement.


----------



## z107

Time said:


> How will it be enforced?


 
By putting the first few desenters in prison. Everyone else will chicken out, and pay up.


----------



## dewdrop

I wonder could non payment become in effect a charge on the property. Also i suspect that in event of a sale any  outstanding sums due would have to be paid before a sale could close?


----------



## Brendan Burgess

uptomyeyesin said:


> I wonder is there a loophole for apartment owners where the estate has not been taken in charge by the Local Authority?
> 
> .



I don't think it is a loophole, I think it is the plan.

You should get on to your TDs and suggest that the list includes any estate not taken in charge by the local authority.  Or that the developer should be responsible for the charge until the local authority takes over.


----------



## zztop

How do they expect to enforce this charge centrally? LAs dont have
houses recorded other than on planning files.It will take an enormous
amount of work to get to the people who wont pay.As usual the law
abiding will feel they must pay but who is going to know how many dont.


----------



## Berni

zztop said:


> LAs dont have houses recorded other than on planning files.


They will probably use the GeoDirectory http://www.geodirectory.ie/
It has an entry for (almost) every building in the country


----------



## tosullivan

Can anyone clarify then if payment is paid on this if?

a) Your house is part of a housing estate that has not been taken over by the local authority

b) your house is part of a development that is not fully finished and has not been taken over by the local authority and is still in the hands of the developer who has walked away and hasnt been near the place in over 3yrs


----------



## tosullivan

dewdrop said:


> I wonder could non payment become in effect a charge on the property. Also i suspect that in event of a sale any outstanding sums due would have to be paid before a sale could close?


 


zztop said:


> How do they expect to enforce this charge centrally? LAs dont have
> houses recorded other than on planning files.It will take an enormous
> amount of work to get to the people who wont pay.As usual the law
> abiding will feel they must pay but who is going to know how many dont.


 
I imagine it would be done as dewdrop states above.  Its teh same way they do the NPPR.
Non payment accrues an interest penalty monthly.  This can add up the longer it is outstanding.
When you do go to sell then this is when it will bite as it will be found then in the searches

There is no way out of this...


----------



## Complainer

Do you remember all those brave folk who swore that they'd continue to smoke their fags down their local pub?


----------



## dereko1969

It's going to be less than €2 a week, no new tax is nice but put it in perspective, it's a glass of beer a week!

I'm sure we'll have the numpties in PbP and the Socialist Party trying to rile up the masses into a non-payment campaign which will work as successfully as all their other hair-brained student union style schemes.

What a load of fuss about nothing.


----------



## T McGibney

dereko1969 said:


> It's going to be less than €2 a week, no new tax is nice but put it in perspective, it's a glass of beer a week!



Don't be fooled by the low charge in the first year. Wait 3 or 4 years and it'll be €20 or €30 per week. Just like what they did with the third level student registration charge, which has gone from something like €500 or €750 to 'only' €2250 in a few years.


----------



## michaelm

Time said:


> I foresee a lot of non payment of this charge.


I would expect the opposite: near full compliance.


----------



## z107

dereko1969 said:


> It's going to be less than €2 a week, no new tax is nice but put it in perspective, it's a glass of beer a week!
> 
> I'm sure we'll have the numpties in PbP and the Socialist Party trying to rile up the masses into a non-payment campaign which will work as successfully as all their other hair-brained student union style schemes.
> 
> What a load of fuss about nothing.


 
Assuming you are serious, I see the following issues:
1. As mentioned above, this is just the start. In the UK, this charge is now typically in the thousands.
2. The money I will be forced to pay will be given to people that are far, far richer than I am.
3. This is just one extra charge. Don't forget to take into consideration all the other multitude of taxes and charges in Ireland. VAT increase, property tax, cuts etc.... It all adds up. More than a glass of beer.


----------



## dereko1969

umop3p!sdn said:


> Assuming you are serious, I see the following issues:
> 1. As mentioned above, this is just the start. In the UK, this charge is now typically in the thousands.
> 2. The money I will be forced to pay will be given to people that are far, far richer than I am.
> 3. This is just one extra charge. Don't forget to take into consideration all the other multitude of taxes and charges in Ireland. VAT increase, property tax, cuts etc.... It all adds up. More than a glass of beer.


 
I'm very serious.
The question was will people not pay "this" tax - ie the €100, this is not a council tax, it may increase in future, i'll reserve judgement if it hits a much higher level.
With regard to 2. The money will go into the Local Government fund so how you can say it's going to richer people is beyond me.
With regard to 3. That's not what this thread it about.

My point still stands, it's very small beer literally.


----------



## Marion

*Penalties will apply*



> The liability date will be 1 January in 2012 and subsequent years and households not availing of instalment arrangements will have three months to pay. Late payment penalties and late payment interest of 1% per month or part thereof will apply thereafter.
> 
> Late payment fees, calculated as follows, will apply in the case of a household charge paid not
> 
> later than 6 months after the due date, 10 per cent of the amount outstanding,
> later than 6 months and not later than 12 months after the due date, 20 per cent of the amount outstanding,
> or later than 12 months after the due date, 30 per cent of the amount outstanding.






Costs will add up very quickly.

Marion


----------



## ajapale

ajapale said:


> My reading of the bill:
> 
> 4.4.b provides for a waiver for those living in unfinished housing estates.
> 
> 5. provides for a list to be maintained by the minister of such  unfinished estates. The minister can only put such estates on the list  that meet criteria a)- h).
> 
> aj



This is my understanding of the provisions of the Bill. 

So, no loophole! It provision is for a waiver for unfinished housing estates - these estates are those on a list to be maintained by the minister according to the points a) - b)


----------



## ajapale

tosullivan said:


> Can anyone clarify then if payment is paid on this if?
> 
> a) Your house is part of a housing estate that has not been taken over by the local authority
> 
> b) your house is part of a development that is not fully finished and has not been taken over by the local authority and is still in the hands of the developer who has walked away and hasnt been near the place in over 3yrs



a) you pay unless its on the ministers list of unfinished estates.

b)you have a waiver providing your estate is on the Ministers list.

(this is based on my reading of the Bill)


----------



## Time

I still expect significant evasion of the charge.


----------



## tosullivan

ajapale said:


> a) you pay unless its on the ministers list of unfinished estates.
> 
> b)you have a waiver providing your estate is on the Ministers list.
> 
> (this is based on my reading of the Bill)


 
Is this list of unfinished estates freely available?


----------



## Time

Foi?


----------



## ajapale

> (5) The Minister shall not prescribe a list for the purposes of this
> section unless he or she is satisfied that each of the developments
> specified in the list is_* incomplete to a substantial extent*_,
> 
> and the Minister shall, for the purpose of so satisfying himself or herself,
> have regard to all relevant circumstances, including—
> 
> (a) the *state of completion* of *roads, footpaths and public
> lighting facilities* in the development,
> (b) the state of completion of piped water and sewerage facili
> ties within the development,
> (c) the state of completion of *open spaces* or similar amenities
> within the development,
> (d) the extent to which the development *complies with the
> terms of any planning permission* applicable to it,
> (e) the extent to which the development *complies with the
> provisions of the Building Control Acts* 1990 and 2007,
> (f) the provisions of the Local Government (Sanitary
> Services) Act 1964 as it pertains to *dangerous places and
> dangerous structures* within the meaning of that Act, 35
> (g) the extent to which roads, open spaces, car parks, sewers,
> watermains, drains or other public facilities in the
> development have been *taken in charge by the local authority*
> concerned, and
> (h) where there is an agreement with the local authority con
> cerned relating to the maintenance of roads, open spaces,
> car parks, sewers, watermains, drains or other public
> facilities in the development, the extent to which there
> has been *compliance with the conditions for maintenance
> under the agreement.*


My understanding of the Bill is that such a list does not yet exist, the section goes on to state the circumstances in which a certain development must be excluded by the Minister. Its a weird negative phrasing.

Such developments must be _*incomplete to a substantial extent*_, and the Minister must _*have regard*_ to all relevant circumstances, including—(a) to (h).

I think its fair to call this the "Ghost Estates" Waiver.


----------



## RedDevil

It will be a charge on the property and if unpaid they will get in including penalties when property is to be sold.

It will apply even where estates have not fully been taken in charge by a Local Authority

It is a temporary measure pending its replacement by a Property Tax

The €100 will increase in line with the CPI

The return and information they obtain through its payment will facilitate the future Property Tax


----------



## truthseeker

What about estates that will never be taken in charge by the local authority - as in, managed estates where the residents pay management fees and the estate is considered private property?


----------



## Firefly

I wish the vast majority of this tax went to the areas where it was collected. At least then you might see something in return for it.


----------



## valery

One of the reason given for levying this tax is to bring us into line with the rest of europe.  Uk Council tax and french Taxe d'Habitation is paid by the occupier of the property.  This is not necessarily the owner.  Does anyone know what is the situation regarding propery tax in other EU countries


----------



## horusd

I think people will pay it, but like firefly I would like to see it go directly into the local council area or whatever, and we should be able to discern how it is spent. But, like many of the charges and hikes it will go to pay-off debt, thanks again Anglo, the ECB and the whole darn lot of em.


----------



## ajapale

truthseeker said:


> What about estates that will never be taken in charge by the local authority - as in, managed estates where the residents pay management fees and the estate is considered private property?



As far as I can make out such properties are not exempt from the provisions of the Bill.


----------



## gipimann

Will the new tax/charge be paid online like the NPPR?  What about households that don't have access to or experience of computers/internet - will there be a provision for them to pay at the post office or whatever?

Some people might expect an invoice or bill for this, and if they don't get it and don't go online, could accrue penalties quite quickly.


----------



## wbbs

It's fine to say its just the cost of a glass of beer but that depends on what you would have spent that €2 p.w. on and mine certainly would not go on beer.  It also depends on what percentage of your weekly income that is, to someone on 188 p.w welfare that €2 is needed for other things.   Fine if you're working with a reasonable wage but gross that up a percentage of your existing income, it then just comes out of your discretionary spending surplus I presume but for many many people in this country this minute there is no surplus.


----------



## truthseeker

ajapale said:


> As far as I can make out such properties are not exempt from the provisions of the Bill.


 
Wow - thats a massive hike on top of management fees.


----------



## Complainer

As I understand it, this flat-rate charge is a temporary measure until some more structured and balanced property tax is brought in. The new tax will be in some way proportional to the size/value/cost of the property.


----------



## LittlePiggy

I have to say that as an Englishman in Ireland, the idea of there being no property tax here always used to surprise me. That and water rates as well.

I paid £100 a month for my one bed flat in England and no property charges at all here on my larger, more comfortable house. But this ignores a major point, that is in England you are paying that money for your local services: Leisure Centres, school books, bin collections, and so on.

The difference here is that this tax is now on top of many individual charges already paid by everybody, and that's why there is such opposition. So the term "coming into line with Europe" only looks like it will work one way - Charging the extra tax but not offering the services in return.

As firefly has said above - If this tax is charged and is goes where it is supposed to, then we will see a return and I will be happy to pay.


----------



## billybound

I would like to see the detail for what this charge is to be used for. To be fair it should be based on size of property/or value. 
In comparison the  council tax in UK is a lot more than here but it is very clear what the charges are used for and you get a lot of services included for it too. 
This 100 euro charge will be in addition to other council charges. 
I live in a new estate of 5 houses and the council do not look after any part of the shared land around the properties. This is paid for by the residents. I dread the day when any expensive maintenance work is required. 
And so the state thinks this 100 euros is fair, well it might be if they were clear on its use.


----------



## billybound

ajapale said:


> a) you pay unless its on the ministers list of unfinished estates.
> 
> b)you have a waiver providing your estate is on the Ministers list.
> 
> (this is based on my reading of the Bill)


 
My estate has no street lights. Is that classed as unfinished???


----------



## ajapale

billybound said:


> My estate has no street lights. Is that classed as unfinished???





> (5) The Minister shall not prescribe a list for the purposes of this
> section unless he or she is satisfied that each of the developments
> specified in the list is_* incomplete to a substantial extent*_,
> 
> AND the Minister shall, for the purpose of so satisfying himself or herself,
> have regard to all relevant circumstances*.*



If every thing is complete except for the street lights then it would be hard to argue that the estate is _incomplete to a substantial extent_. The act would not allow the minister to put such an estate on the the list.


----------



## Romulan

I listened to it being explained on the radio and thought that the list of those excluded was longer than those actually going to pay it.

As per an earlier poster, I object to having to pay for a house I provided for myself while those who have housing provided by the taxpayer (as in me) do not have to pay.

And no, I don't mean sheltered housing etc. etc.


----------



## SparkRite

Romulan you hit the nail on the head!!

Couldn't agree more. The people who enjoy the house that the tax payer "bought" for them pay nothing, (yet again), but us poor earners have to fork out, not only for their house but also for our own that we scrimped and saved for, and are paying for each and every month for 20 years and more!!


----------



## hopalong

wbbs said:


> It's fine to say its just the cost of a glass of beer but that depends on what you would have spent that €2 p.w. on and mine certainly would not go on beer.  It also depends on what percentage of your weekly income that is, to someone on 188 p.w welfare that €2 is needed for other things.   Fine if you're working with a reasonable wage but gross that up a percentage of your existing income, it then just comes out of your discretionary spending surplus I presume but for many many people in this country this minute there is no surplus.


i am earning 230euro a week,surely on such a wage i should not be paying the same as those on a much higher wage.


----------



## june

romulan said:


> i listened to it being explained on the radio and thought that the list of those excluded was longer than those actually going to pay it.
> 
> As per an earlier poster, i object to having to pay for a house i provided for myself while those who have housing provided by the taxpayer (as in me) do not have to pay.
> 
> And no, i don't mean sheltered housing etc. Etc.


 
+1

I find that my heart strings are not pulled so much when my purse strings are being tugged from every angle


----------



## pudds

hopalong said:


> i am earning 230euro a week,surely on such a wage i should not be paying the same as those on a much higher wage.




I can under cut that, I'm earning €208 p.w. and living in a two up and  two down and no swmming pool out the back except when we get flooded

Never mind being bankrupt but were also now morally bankrupt which to me is even worse.


----------



## potnoodler

What is the reason over LA housing being exempt?


----------



## ajapale

potnoodler said:


> What is the reason over LA housing being exempt?



Because this is a house owners tax and is not levied on tenants. I suppose you could make a case for the LA to pay the tax and then get it back but it wouldn't make much sense.


----------



## pconsidine

I am a pensioner on €230 per week and finding it difficult to make ends meet as more and more stealth taxes eat into my small income. My house, which I own after paying a mortgage for the last 25 years of my working life, is worth about €500,000. I can pay the €100, but what happens when the property tax moves to a valuation basis and I receive demands for €500 or €600? Obviously, I will not be able to pay this sort of money. I am genuinely frightened by where this tax is leading. The politicians are talking about exempting various random groups, but what about ability to pay? Once it moves to a valuation basis there MUST be a general cap on this tax based on a percentage of household income. My case is not untypical of pensioners in parts of Dublin and other areas where property values remain high.


----------



## bullworth

Berni said:


> They will probably use the GeoDirectory http://www.geodirectory.ie/
> It has an entry for (almost) every building in the country



Can you remove your house from this directory and others in the same way you can remove it from Google maps ?


----------



## ajapale

Complainer said:


> As I understand it, this flat-rate charge is a  temporary measure until some more structured and balanced property tax  is brought in. The new tax will be in some way proportional to the  size/value/cost of the property.



Yes, I dont think it should be be called a house hold charge rather I think it should be called the *"Property Precursor Tax"*.


----------



## Guns N Roses

bullworth said:


> Can you remove your house from this directory and others in the same way you can remove it from Google maps ?


 
I doubt it. It's run by An Post.

Besides removing your address from every known database will not stop Local Authorities from finding your house.


----------



## ngwrbc

A question (if discussed already apologies, couldnt find it).  Reading the household charge website saw in the FAQ's the following below... what does this mean for affordable housing stock where clearly it is vested in a housing authority for 20yrs until clawback is fulfilled and the local authority retain an ownership stake i.e. clawback.   Anyone know?  Thanks.

"*Residential property vested in a housing authority, including property where households are purchasing their homes under the Shared Ownership Scheme and where the local authority still retains an ownership stake" *


----------



## Captain Z

Point 1:
Surely if there is no invoice, if they ever chase you for it, you could easily claim you were unaware of this charge, stating you don't read the news etc etc etc. Therefore avoid any fines/penalties.

Point 2:
Is stamp duty not a property tax as such to pay for local amenities?

Point 3:
Landlords have to pay this on top of the other property tax introduced last year????

Point 4:
This is a very unclear charge - as a household charge then it should be applied to households, which is definied as, _A house and its occupants regarded as a unit, _therefore you should only have to pay for the house you live in, not a property you may have rented to another household !


----------



## Protocol

[broken link removed]

In this article, 4 reasons for a property tax are listed. 
​


----------



## Bronte

Captain Z said:


> Point 1:
> Surely if there is no invoice, if they ever chase you for it, you could easily claim you were unaware of this charge, stating you don't read the news etc etc etc. Therefore avoid any fines/penalties.


 
This is no defense to the tax and the penalties are huge. Ireland is a self assessment system, you have to make it your business to know what taxes you have to pay.


----------



## hopalong

pudds said:


> I can under cut that, I'm earning €208 p.w. and living in a two up and  two down and no swmming pool out the back except when we get flooded
> 
> Never mind being bankrupt but were also now morally bankrupt which to me is even worse.


agreed,so much for hogans fairness,someone in a local authority house on 200euro a week doesnt pay property/council tax,while we on the same wage  get a loan to buy a home and end up paying more tax, both for the previlege of paying for our own house and giving the government money to house some other family .


----------



## roker

It states on the form

The Household Charge 
The Household Charge is an annual charge introduced by the Local Government (Household Charge) Act 2011 which is payable by owners of residential property. It is a matter for owners of residential properties to register and pay the Household Charge on or after the 1st of January 2012. The EU/IMF Programme of Financial Support for Ireland commits the Government to the introduction of a property tax for 2012. We are one of the last countries in Europe that does not fund local services through local property-based charges. These services are essential to your community. They include: fire and emergency services; maintenance and cleaning of streets; planning and development; public parks; street lighting; libraries; open spaces and leisure amenities. These facilities benefit everyone. A property tax, requiring a comprehensive property valuation system, would take time to introduce and accordingly, to meet the requirements in the EU/IMF Programme, the Government has decided to introduce a Household Charge in 2012.The Household Charge is an interim measure only and a comprehensive and equitable valuation-based property tax will be introduced as soon as possible. 


If this is not a local charge going to the council, how can the council give these services? and why shoulds private estates not get these services?


----------



## ajapale

roker said:


> The Household Charge is an interim measure only and a comprehensive and equitable valuation-based property tax will be introduced as soon as possible.



I contend that since this is an interim measure it matters little what it is nominally for or what it is called. What is important in my opinion is what the permanent "*equitable valuation-based property tax*" is for.


----------



## Woodie

I have no problem with a reasonable charge and 100 is not unreasonable.   I suggest however  for anyone interested in where this is going should check any UK county council website for an idea of what this can lead to.  On those scales you should be looking at  1600 to 2400 for the majority of the population.   Except in our  case; no bin charges included, no national health, reduced maintenance and services.   I fear like everything else this will be done unfairly.


----------



## roker

I have a problem paying €100 when every resident in our street is already paying €100 + each year to have the grass cut across the road. The council says that there is no fund available for them to do it, maybe we should say there is no funds available to pay it


----------



## paddyd

30,101 paid it in the first 12 days. [broken link removed]

in the unlikely event that they can maintain that level for the full 90 days, thats 225k households paid up by March 30th - they are expecting 1.6m of the 1.78m housefolds to pay

I don't think anyone needs to organise a non-compliance rally for this one - it appears already doomed to fail.


----------



## potnoodler

I do think most people will roll over and pay it , we bitch and moan but have no back bone so well accept mOre and more taxation without any reform,
On the other point when this tax hits the 1-2k surely this will be a massive incentive to go on a housing list vs renting  , surely la tenants should have the charges passed on to them like all tenants will.
Why would a young person want to buy or rent when if ya wait the council will eventually house you, costing councils more


----------



## serotoninsid

potnoodler said:


> I do think most people will roll over and pay it , we bitch and moan but have no back bone so well accept mOre and more taxation without any reform.


Firstly, they have put a very serious disincentive for people NOT to pay it.  i.e. the consequences ultimately in interest charges are unthinkable for most people.  As has already been mentioned, the problem isn't the charge.  The problem is converting the charge into services - the transparency of that conversion and how much $$ goes down the toilet in that process.  How do we become the country that gets the most services out of our taxes rather than (probably?) one of the worst??

That's the million dollar question - how it gets resolved, I really don't know - nor do I see any confidence in any of our peers bringing this about....


----------



## paddyd

serotoninsid said:


> Firstly, they have put a very serious disincentive for people NOT to pay it.  i.e. the consequences ultimately in interest charges are unthinkable for most people.



not really - you can sit back for 11 months and the cost to wait and see what happens is just €20
http://www.*****************.com/household-charge-property-tax-more-details.html

"The liability date for 2012 is January 1st -  and households will have three months to pay before  *Late payment penalties  apply as follows :*
_Payments made within 3 and 6 months of January 2012 – a *10% penalty*._
_ Payments made between 6 and 12 months late – a *20% penalty.*_"


----------



## Time

How are they going to catch the non payers if you have to register first to even pay it?


----------



## ClubMan

Time said:


> How are they going to catch the non payers if you have to register first to even pay it?


Similar way to how they catch _TV _license evaders?


----------



## Guns N Roses

roker said:


> I have a problem paying €100 when every resident in our street is already paying €100 + each year to have the grass cut across the road. The council says that there is no fund available for them to do it, maybe we should say there is no funds available to pay it


 
Grass cutting in housing estates is not a service that Local Authorities provide. They only cut grass along main roads and some Council estates. Green areas in housing estates are the responsibility of the residents.


----------



## ajapale

Guns N Roses said:


> Grass cuting in housing estates is not a service that Local Authorities provide.


Most dont but some do.


----------



## Guns N Roses

ajapale said:


> Most dont but some do.


 
Could you tell me which County Council's cut grass in housing estates? I never heard of any that do.


----------



## serotoninsid

Guns N Roses said:


> Grass cutting in housing estates is not a service that Local Authorities provide. They only cut grass along main roads and some Council estates. Green areas in housing estates are the responsibility of the residents.


If this is to be 'standard practice', then they need to have some mechanism in place to ensure that all contribute - because all don't contribute when it comes to a fee imposed by a residents association that has no legal authority to insist on all home-owners in the estate to contribute.


----------



## roker

+1 the residents hate collecting each year because some will not pay, particularly tenants renting


----------



## Guns N Roses

roker said:


> +1 the residents hate collecting each year because some will not pay, particularly tenants renting


 
This experience is typical across the country. There is always a few who never pay!


----------



## serotoninsid

Guns N Roses said:


> This experience is typical across the country. There is always a few who never pay!


A few?  Try 50%


----------



## roker

But why does the Houshold Charge state it is for essential service including open spaces? when we are paying separately. Also I assume we will not be charge for fire services any more


These services are essential to your community. They include: fire and emergency services; maintenance and cleaning of streets; planning and development; public parks; street lighting; libraries; open spaces and leisure amenities. These facilities benefit everyone


----------



## Guns N Roses

roker said:


> But why does the Houshold Charge state it is for essential service including open spaces? when we are paying separately. Also I assume we will not be charge for fire services anyone.
> 
> 
> These services are essential to your community. They include: fire and emergency services; maintenance and cleaning of streets; planning and development; public parks; street lighting; libraries; open spaces and leisure amenities. These facilities benefit everyone


 
"Open spaces" in this case doesn't include green areas in most housing estates.

This is a classic example of politicians & central government making promises that Local Authorities can't keep.

I would imagine that the call out for the fire service will be extra on top of the Household Charge.


----------



## Time

> I would imagine that the call out for the fire service will be extra on top of the Household Charge.


Indeed it is.


----------



## acerelic

ClubMan said:


> Similar way to how they catch _TV _license evaders?



I paid it. When you put in your address they already seem to have a record. You enter your address, they appear to match this to some database and they ask you to confirm if this is the property you intended to register.


----------



## CharlieR

As a returner from the UK this charge is just a EU policy because they pay this in their countries and provide services from it.

Ireland provides no services, no fire as europe, no waste, household or free tips, no street maintenance in the rural areas, no leisure centres, free books etc at schools, free kids activities, violin lessons, swimming etc. 

We are just pandering down to the EU rules and should stand up to them. 

Why should what they do mean that we should do it as well?

This will lead to a 2000e a year charge and the slip up was made in a speech last sept? when they said they don't want 12 times what was being charge, i.e. not 100 million but 1.2billion?

If they provide services that the UK provide I would gladly pay the charge, but we pay for what we need and don't see why we should pay a charge that gives no return.


----------



## truthseeker

Thought this might be of interest.



> SIPTU calls on Govt to suspend 'unfair' Household Charge
> Friday, February 17, 2012 - 11:19 AM
> 
> The National Executive Council of SIPTU has called on the Government to suspend the proposed Household Charge on the basis that it is "unfair and regressive".
> 
> *Figures released earlier this week showed that less then 6% of all homeowners, liable for the charge, had actually registered to pay. *
> 
> The deadline to sign up and pay the €100 tax is March 31, 2012.
> 
> SIPTU argues that, as currently formulated, the proposed Household Charge is playing into the hands of those wealthy interests that have successfully resisted the introduction of a fair property tax in the past.
> 
> The group said it supports the introduction of a property tax which is proportionate and which recognises that wealthy households can afford to pay more than those with modest earnings.


----------



## ger2003

€100 is a lot to me and a lot to many people who are struggling.  This money will not be used to fund local services or make our streets safer.  People are right to stand up and be counted


----------



## ajapale

Some freeman nonsense - chain emails - deleted.


----------



## Sumatra

I'm not objecting to the ‘house hold’ charge as I can see the possibility of this payment becoming an instrument in getting us all involved in ‘our council’ for the betterment of our community. 

Other countries have such a charge but it differs from here in that their citizens are adequately informed on a macro level on an annual basis as to how the money they are paying is actually being spent. 

May I make a suggestion that each household receives a letter from our local authority each year showing how much was collected, how it was spent and how the community we live in has benefitted from such a charge? 

I don't want to see my hard earned money funding trips for Councillors to St Patrick's day parades. Funding ill conceived 'pooper scoopers' (http://www.wicklowpeople.ie/news/30000-pooper-scooper-lying-idle-2999820.html) employing people who breast feed shovels and who occasionally throw shovel loads of tarmac into potholes on our roads. Without proper accountability these wasteful practices will continue.

Other countries have such a charge but it differs from here in that their citizens are adequately informed on an annual basis as to how the money they are paying is actually being spent. 

Through payment of this charge, the community has a great opportunity to get involved in demanding improvements in local council inefficiencies as we now have a direct interest. We can drive to improve efficiencies and obtain better value and a better quality of living for us all. 

I appreciate the underlying reasons for the rushed through nature of this charge but I do worry that if payment is made with the present lack of accountability this will demonstrate an acceptance on our part of the way things are to be in the future and that’s not what happens in other countries.


----------



## mcloving

It's the Irish way though, been happening for years, it seeps into all irish public services, can't see it changing unless no-one pays maybe.
We are not france, germany or UK so why follow their systems when they don't work in the Irish system.


----------



## monore

Looks like there is now a strong possibility that this new charge will fail. After a rush  to register and pay at the beginning of January  registrations have slowed to a trickle with only approx 5% now registered.
Although there will inevitably be a big rush towards the end of March there is now a good chance that hundreds of thousands will refuse to pay. 

A few missteps from the govt has not helped. 

Rabbittes announcement that those that register will also have to pay a broadcast charge. 
Admittance that money will be used to pay bank debts through a €170 million reduction in local authority allocation.
70% rightdown in Greek sovereign debt as Kenny claims Irish are happy to pay unsecured  bank bondholders in full.
Announcement that there will be a firesale of state assets to pay bank debts. 

I know I risk censure by opposing the AAM view but Don't Register, Don't pay.

We are not Greece. The Irish don't demonstrate on the streets and usually do as they are told. But maybe enough are angry and frustrated at the way we have bailed out the speculators and the bankers to finally make some small protest by opposing this charge even if it is only another straw on the backs of the struggling classes.


----------



## ajapale

monore said:


> Rabbittes announcement that those that register will also have to pay a broadcast charge.



Yes announcement of the _*Rabbit Tax*_ did not help.


----------



## truthseeker

monore said:


> ....with only approx 5% now registered.



[broken link removed] 2 days ago - just under 7% of people.


----------



## monore

truthseeker said:


> [broken link removed] 2 days ago - just under 7% of people.



Not really. Approx 1.6 million liable to pay but a few hundred thousand more required to register. (ghost estates, mortgage supplement etc) Many of those who have registered have exemptions. The (less than) 110,000 figure is for those that have registered. The 1.6 million is for those that have to pay so 5% is more accurate. They are only estimates anyway so would not get hung up over a few percent either way at this stage in the game.


----------



## callybags

I have paid.

How poeple can think that we will be better off as a country by not paying this absolutely baffles me.

I do feel for those that genuinely cannot pay and believe that there will be some form of waiver brought in; but for those who can afford it then pay up and don't leave it to others to better your lot.


----------



## truthseeker

monore said:


> Not really. Approx 1.6 million liable to pay but a few hundred thousand more required to register. (ghost estates, mortgage supplement etc) Many of those who have registered have exemptions. The (less than) 110,000 figure is for those that have registered. The 1.6 million is for those that have to pay so 5% is more accurate. They are only estimates anyway so would not get hung up over a few percent either way at this stage in the game.



Ah I didnt realise you still had to register if exempt (makes sense, just never thought about it).

I wasnt getting hung up btw - just providing the most recent news article so people have an idea of where its at.


----------



## Time

monore said:


> Not really. Approx 1.6 million liable to pay but a few hundred thousand more required to register. (ghost estates, mortgage supplement etc) Many of those who have registered have exemptions. The (less than) 110,000 figure is for those that have registered. The 1.6 million is for those that have to pay so 5% is more accurate. They are only estimates anyway so would not get hung up over a few percent either way at this stage in the game.


If enough people don't pay it, it will become unenforceable like the Poll tax in the UK. So many people did not pay that it resulted in the courts/councils being unable to function. The police stopped enforcing warrants. The whole thing collapsed. Same will happen in Ireland.


----------



## monore

Time said:


> If enough people don't pay it, it will become unenforceable like the Poll tax in the UK. So many people did not pay that it resulted in the courts/councils being unable to function. The police stopped enforcing warrants. The whole thing collapsed. Same will happen in Ireland.



Exactly. And strong possibility that will now happen. Refusal to register based on a few assumptions

1. This charge nothing really to do with local govt funding. It is collected by central govt. 

2 Refusal to register a legitimate and effective way of protesting

3 Those liable for this charge are in the main those that have already borne the brunt of extra austerity taxes to date. 

4 This charge was introduced as a direct result of an order from the Troika


----------



## chrisboy

callybags said:


> I have paid.
> 
> How poeple can think that we will be better off as a country by not paying this absolutely baffles me.



I live on my own in a house worth 100k and they want me to pay 100 euro after i paid 15k in stamp duty a few years ago.

A family of 6 in a 2 million euro house has to pay 100 euro.

TBH, the unbelievable inequality absolutely baffles me.


----------



## callybags

The fact that you paid 15K stamp duty is completely irrelevant. I'm sure you also paid income tax, VAT, Excise Duty etc.

Also, if the 6 person family had to pay 5k would it make you feel better?  Because taxes are not supposed to make poeple feel better.


----------



## truthseeker

I dont want to pay for two reasons.

One is that I already pay ~1k a year for services such as grass cutting, road and pavement maintenance, bins, lighting, etc. My estate is privately managed and will never be taken in hand by the local authority.

I also do not want to pay because I have no option but to be a property owner. I have massive negative equity so cannot sell the property, so I feel like the government have me pinned squirming with a needle on a dissection table - as a property owner I am liable, but I cant not be a property owner.

I am waiting to see what will happen, I personally hope that so many people dont pay that it becomes impossible to enforce.


----------



## Ceist Beag

I've just registered (won't pay until nearer deadline tho) and it gave me an account reference with the word This post will be deleted if not edited to remove bad language in it - hope that isn't a sign!


----------



## mcloving

Interesting times are ahead for us all. I can't see the other 95% coughing up within 5 weeks.
The government take all of us for mugs, lets see after march 31st...


----------



## Time

There will be a last minute rush as always but I doubt more than 7% will have paid by then.


----------



## monore

It seems that the govt is deliberately underestimating the numbers of properties in order to make the registration figures look better.

How many properties will be liable for the new Household Tax*– (*which should really be called a Property Tax)

According to preliminary Census 2011 figures – there were 2,004,175 dwellings in Ireland in May 2011. (Of those – 294,202 were vacant and 1709973 dwellings were occupied.)

Vacant houses are not exempt – but it is possible that some of these vacant dwellings may be exempt because they form part of the trading stock of a business and they have never being lived in. Many NAMA owned properties may fall into this exemption – but the total figure involved is not known. Let’s estimate that 100,000 of these vacant properties are exempt. (It is an over estimation and could overlap with some of the unfinished estates)

All Local Authority owned housing is exempt – and that is about 108,000 homes.
Also exempt are houses owned by approved non-profit housing bodies (housing associations and housing co-operatives) which is about 25,000 dwellings.
So – that’s 133,000 exempt rented dwellings.

There are also about 18,000 homeowners on Mortgage Interest Supplement – who will also be exempt.

That brings the total estimated exempt properties to 251,000.

Houses on certain “unfinished estates” are also exempt. The list of unfinished estates is here and there are 1325 estates involved.

Any habitable or inhabited houses on those estates will be exempt for a maximum of 2 years. The government estimate the number of completed houses on unfinished estates in 2012 to be in the region of 34,000.

So – there could be as many as 285,000 houses and apartments that are exempt from the Household Charge. That leaves about 1.73 million properties that could be liable.


----------



## ajapale

monore said:


> How many properties will be liable for the new Household Tax*– (*which should really be called a Property Tax)



Agreed but perhaps it should be called the Property Precursor Tax.

btw whats with the weird stars which pepper your post? Ive removed them.


----------



## monore

ajapale said:


> btw whats with the weird stars which pepper your post? Ive removed them.



Sorry Ajapale. That was a copy and paste. Forgot to reference

http://www.*****************.com/how-many-properties-will-be-liable-for-the-household-charge.html


----------



## La Chime

monore said:


> It seems that the govt is deliberately underestimating the numbers of properties in order to make the registration figures look better.
> 
> How many properties will be liable for the new Household Tax*– (*which should really be called a Property Tax)
> 
> According to preliminary Census 2011 figures – there were 2,004,175 dwellings in Ireland in May 2011. (Of those – 294,202 were vacant and 1709973 dwellings were occupied.)
> 
> Vacant houses are not exempt – but it is possible that some of these vacant dwellings may be exempt because they form part of the trading stock of a business and they have never being lived in. Many NAMA owned properties may fall into this exemption – but the total figure involved is not known. Let’s estimate that 100,000 of these vacant properties are exempt. (It is an over estimation and could overlap with some of the unfinished estates)
> 
> All Local Authority owned housing is exempt – and that is about 108,000 homes.
> Also exempt are houses owned by approved non-profit housing bodies (housing associations and housing co-operatives) which is about 25,000 dwellings.
> So – that’s 133,000 exempt rented dwellings.
> 
> There are also about 18,000 homeowners on Mortgage Interest Supplement – who will also be exempt.
> 
> That brings the total estimated exempt properties to 251,000.
> 
> Houses on certain “unfinished estates” are also exempt. The list of unfinished estates is here and there are 1325 estates involved.
> 
> Any habitable or inhabited houses on those estates will be exempt for a maximum of 2 years. The government estimate the number of completed houses on unfinished estates in 2012 to be in the region of 34,000.
> 
> So – there could be as many as 285,000 houses and apartments that are exempt from the Household Charge. That leaves about 1.73 million properties that could be liable.


 
One factor to add to the numbers excempt-they still have to register to claim their excemption.


----------



## La Chime

My view and why I won,t be paying nor registering.

One, its double taxation, I already paid large stamp duty, and paid off my mortgage, so therefore my house is my private property bought and paid for end of story.

Two, Like most other people, I know dam well its not gonna stop at €100.

Three, Even if you are in a position to pay this now, ask yourself this

1. Will I still have this job Im in this time next year?

2. What new tax will they pass in the next budget even if I can afford it now?

3,Will I still have the same wages/salary this time next year providing my wages/salary don,t get cut and reduced?

4. When I am in my old age, will I be able to pay all these new taxes on my home when I am relying on my pension?

5, And finally if I can afford a household tax of €100 at the present moment, would I be able to afford to a full property tax combined with water charges at over €1000?


----------



## monore

La Chime said:


> One factor to add to the numbers excempt-they still have to register to claim their excemption.



Indeed. Those in ghost estates and claiming mortgage interest supplement are still required to register so they should be added to the 1.73 million. Yet the govt is giving out an estimate of 1.6 million.


----------



## michaelm

Are they fiendishly smart enough to doctor the figures? I'm not so sure; I think that they have just made a conservative estimate which won't be far off.


----------



## swauna78

Was having a discussion about this with some friends at the weekend.  One of them mentioned a friend of hers in the U.K. was asking her what all the fuss is about as it's 'only €100' and they pay far more in council tax over in the U.K.

O.K. - yes, you do pay far more than €100 in 'council tax' over there.  However, it covers road repairs in your council's jurisdiction/public lighting/public leisure centres and bin collections.

My car tax is €626 per year.  I pay over €300 in bin charges per year.  I pay €120 per year to a residents association for grass cutting and grounds maintenance in our estate as the council have refused to take it over!  We don't have many public leisure centres like the ones they have in abundance in the U.K either.....

Our marginal tax rate is already pretty high when the USC is taken into account.  We have excessive VRT on new vehicles.  We have carbon tax and high excise duty on fuel.

And this €100 so called household charge is only the tip of the iceberg!  I dread to think what's to come when they announce how they are going to collect the property charge in future years.  It's not even going to fund the council services.  It's going into the big black hole that is paying back the bondholders.  Arghhhhhhhhhh :-(


----------



## Protocol

Our tax levels overall are low.

PRSI at 4% is low.

See here:

[broken link removed]

Our total taxes are 30% of GDP, highest is about 50%.

Adjusting for GNP brings us to 36-38%.

Reducing the fiscal deficit involves new taxes like the property tax.


----------



## Protocol

La Chime said:


> My view and why I won,t be paying nor registering.
> 
> One, its double taxation, I already paid large stamp duty, and paid off my mortgage, so therefore my house is my private property bought and paid for end of story.
> 
> *People who paid a lot of SD have a reasonable grievience.*
> 
> *However, having "bought and paid for" your house does not make you exempt.*
> 
> *You may have paid for your car, but you still have to pay an annual motor tax.*
> 
> Two, Like most other people, I know dam well its not gonna stop at €100.
> 
> 
> 2. What new tax will they pass in the next budget even if I can afford it now?
> 
> *Hopefully a fat tax and a sugar tax.*
> 
> 
> 5, And finally if I can afford a household tax of €100 at the present moment, would I be able to afford to a full property tax combined with water charges at over €1000?
> 
> *Reducing the defict will mean a drop in our standards of living.*


 

...


----------



## Protocol

If I bring my faulty car to a mechanic, I take his advice.

If I feel sick, I go to a doctor and take their advice.

Sociologists / economists / etc have spent 100 years trying to develop better, smarter taxes, and most of them agree that property taxes are better than the alternatives.

All taxes are bad in some sense, nobody likes paying them, but property taxes create less negative distortions than other taxes.

Yet people in Ireland seem to ignore or dismiss all this effort to develop better taxes.

The recent rise in VAT will cost us 100s of millions - *yet I see no protest*.

Many other countries have some form of property tax - are they all mad / crazy??

Of course they aren't, they realise that property taxes are sensible.


----------



## bullworth

Protocol said:


> Our tax levels overall are low.



However the services we receive in return for the taxes taken are low. Plus we are being suffocated with stealth taxes at the same time. Is the future of Ireland  high taxes, no services plus stealth taxes suffocating domestic activity ? Taxes as high as the high tax countries but services nowhere near what their citizens enjoy ? I suspect low taxes have a lot of support in Ireland not least because the ordinary person in the street realizes that the government simply cannot be trusted to spend your money properly.


----------



## ivannomonet

Protocol said:


> Many other countries have some form of property tax - are they all mad / crazy??
> 
> Of course they aren't, they realise that property taxes are sensible.



The issue I have with this tax is that it is not being fairly targetted.

I live in the countryside, yes , by my own choice,yes,  in the house I pay for.
I have no libraries, public parks, street lighting, public transport, fire brigade, ambulance etc on my doorstep.
Yet the 100's of thousands of people who cant be bothered to try and make an effort to improve their own lives who live in cheap or free social housing have all of these amenities and more, and they are exempt? Explain to me why the very people who benefit from these services don't pay for them and I should pay twice??


----------



## Centaur

I've paid mine this week.  The principle of the tax is a good one although it will need a lot of tweaking ... so we'd better get on with trying to bring the country out of the mess its in.

What we badly need is to see it going hand in hand with genuine local government reform and accountability but I can't think of one single politician in the Dail, Senate or Local Government that I would have real faith in.  Sad.


----------



## mcloving

Protocol said:


> If I bring my faulty car to a mechanic, I take his advice.
> 
> If I feel sick, I go to a doctor and take their advice.
> 
> Sociologists / economists / etc have spent 100 years trying to develop better, smarter taxes, and most of them agree that property taxes are better than the alternatives.
> 
> All taxes are bad in some sense, nobody likes paying them, but property taxes create less negative distortions than other taxes.
> 
> Yet people in Ireland seem to ignore or dismiss all this effort to develop better taxes.
> 
> The recent rise in VAT will cost us 100s of millions - *yet I see no protest*.
> 
> Many other countries have some form of property tax - are they all mad / crazy??
> 
> Of course they aren't, they realise that property taxes are sensible.



Try stating that to someone who spent many tens of thousands on the previous property tax, known as *STAMP DUTY*


----------



## serotoninsid

I initially registered for the tax back in January.  However, since then I've not followed through.  There is no issue with a property tax.  However, it's converting taxes into services that is an issue in Ireland.  

At a more basic level, my issue is this.  Over the past 12 months, I have been in contact with the Co.Co. planning office - trying to get an answer as to what bond is held for my estate (if any) and the amount of said bond. I enquired if residents could get access to said bond in order to bring about completion of the estate.  I also enquired about the council taking the estate in charge.  What has unfolded in my comms with the council in the following months would not be tolerated in any other european country.  Firstly, they sent out letters confirming the receipt of my emails.  Who - in this day and age - would do such a ridiculous (wasteful) thing!?  In my follow up mails pressing for answers to the questions posed, I got response after response -saying Mary has passed this on to John for review.  Then John has passed it on to Joe.  i.e. Getting FOBBED OFF.

If they can't even be straight with people - and won't even consider taking the estate in charge, someone please inform me why I should pay a property tax???


----------



## csirl

serotoninsid said:


> At a more basic level, my issue is this. Over the past 12 months, I have been in contact with the Co.Co. planning office - trying to get an answer as to what bond is held for my estate (if any) and the amount of said bond.


 
Off thread topic but Submit a Freedom of Information request for all documentation relating to it and you'll have the info within 4 weeks.


----------



## NANA01

Ok lets get some facts straight.

This money goes to Dublin.  You get your application form from the County Council but it goes straight to Dublin with money enclosed.  Not receipted or taken in by County Councils.  The County Councils will take your form and money and post to Dublin for you if you want.

Each year the Dept of Environment yearly give grants and subsities  to the Local Authorities to provide certain services,  this money is in addition to local commercial rates/rents/traffic fines any other income.  Now what they have done is reduced these grants and going to replace it with the money received from the household charge and this will be decided by the Deparment.

In short .... and my mother hates when i say this .... SAME DIFFERENCE!!!

This money is NOT going to local authorities as advertised they are just getting the money they are allocated anyway yearly from our taxes.... just getting less.

No I dont work as a public servant  before I get the usual public servant bashers.  Just wanted to point out the facts.  Its a bit simplified above but lets not fool ourselves the money is going to pay off the lifestyle of the bankers and developers for the last 10 years.  Thats all I will say on that.


----------



## serotoninsid

csirl said:


> Off thread topic but Submit a Freedom of Information request for all documentation relating to it and you'll have the info within 4 weeks.


Ok thanks.  I appreciate that.  Mods - please be aware that I outlined this in the context of my frustration in not getting the most basic of services - and bearing this in mind in my decision making re. the household charge.


----------



## Protocol

NANA1,

correct, the central Govt gran to the LA will be reduced by 160m, as the LA will receive the Household Charge income.

LA will not be better off.

Fiscal deficit will reduce by 160m.


----------



## csirl

NANA01 said:


> Ok lets get some facts straight.
> 
> This money goes to Dublin. You get your application form from the County Council but it goes straight to Dublin with money enclosed. Not receipted or taken in by County Councils. The County Councils will take your form and money and post to Dublin for you if you want.


 
Dublin City Council does not receive all this money. I assume you mean that the money goes to central government? And if the truth is told, Dublin residents get less money per capita that rural councils thus it would be more correct to say that Dublin money goes to other councils.


----------



## T McGibney

csirl said:


> Dublin City Council does not receive all this money. I assume you mean that the money goes to central government?



No need to assume anything. The poster already said


NANA01 said:


> This money is NOT going to local authorities as advertised they are just  getting the money they are allocated anyway yearly from our taxes....  just getting less.


----------



## monore

Joe McHugh TD has announced that government is planning to allow payment in post offices.


----------



## 44brendan

Gross or net value? I.e I own a property valued at 150K with a mortgage of 200K. My neighbour owns a property valued at 150K with no mortgage. Is a property tax fair if we are both taxed on 150K asset ownership? It doesn't seem fair to me!


----------



## manta356

monore said:


> Joe McHugh TD has announced that government is planning to allow payment in post offices.


 
A sign of desperation perhaps......................?


----------



## Protocol

Or maybe  acknowledgement that not everybody is online, and that the PO network is comprehesive and convenient.


----------



## truthseeker

Protocol said:


> Or maybe  acknowledgement that not everybody is online, and that the PO network is comprehesive and convenient.



Exactly, it makes a lot of sense, my FIL has the internet but has no online banking facilities - ie, no credit card or paypal account etc...

I just checked the website, and there has always been a non online option - 2 of them actually:



> Online  - www.householdcharge.ie - by credit card/debit card or by Direct Debit. Instalment option is only available by Direct Debit until the 1st March 2012.
> 
> By Post: Registration forms are available online; from  City/County Councils; Libraries; Citizen Information Centres or Lo Call 1890 357357.
> 
> Payment can be made by cheque/postal order/bank draft made payable to “Household Charge". Send form with payment to: Household Charge, P.O Box12168, Dublin 1.
> 
> 
> NOTE: Direct Debit mandates submitted by post must be received by 1st March 2012
> 
> Local Authority: In your City/County Council offices before 31st March (no administration fee applies).



I still havent received any official communication, leaflet etc.. so if I didnt have internet access I wouldnt know the above (unless its been advertised and I havent noticed as I dont watch telly or read newspapers).


----------



## Protocol

There have been three payment options since the start:


online

by post to Dublin

at your local LA office


----------



## Protocol

Truthseeker, you don't read newspapers or watch TV???

I simply can't imagine anybody like that.

How will you ever find the truth unless you investigate.................


----------



## truthseeker

Protocol said:


> I simply can't imagine anybody like that.



We exist. 

TV bores me. I read.

Newspapers cost money and make your hands dirty and are full of bits Ive no interest in like ad's and the sports sections so I check out news websites and just read the bits that interest me.


----------



## monore

michaelm said:


> Are they fiendishly smart enough to doctor the figures? I'm not so sure; I think that they have just made a conservative estimate which won't be far off.



That is exactly what they are doing. The 1.6 million figure is underestimating by about 200,000 of the number being required to register. 

And it is not being made clear that numbers been announced are for those that have registered. Many of whom have exemptions. Numbers who have paid are far less.


----------



## ajapale

Interesting question about "Certificates of Discharge" moved.
Can you get a HC "Certificate of Discharge" online?


----------



## truthseeker

Independent.ie article about the household charge.



> A substantial platform was afforded on RTE's 'Six One News' on Tuesday to a senior local government official, who gave a convincing impression of a tax collector. And Environment Minister Phil Hogan has been sighted, warning that unpaid charges, plus penalties, will be seized from the proceeds of property sales.
> 
> As soon as he delivered that pearl, I knew we really were listening to Mr Silly's Nonsense Land Band. Sell a house in a falling market? Dream on. Most of us are stuck with any property we bought. If that's Plan B, then the Government will wait a long, long time for its pound of flesh.


----------



## Ceist Beag

Also I noticed on Six One earlier this week some representative (can't remember which agency he worked for) mentioned that they would be matching up addresses received from ESB networks (via the MPRN number unique to each house meter) with the household charge data to find out which households had not paid the charge. Sounded like more bluster to me as when asked how they could possibly cope with the volumes if 50% of the people don't pay he completely avoided answering that.


----------



## Codogly

The question is ...what alternative tax will the government introduce when the Household charge fails ... perhaps they will now realise that the only way to collect tax is via a third party ie employers extra paye / prsi / USC.


----------



## truthseeker

Ceist Beag said:


> Also I noticed on Six One earlier this week some representative (can't remember which agency he worked for) mentioned that they would be matching up addresses received from ESB networks (via the MPRN number unique to each house meter) with the household charge data to find out which households had not paid the charge. Sounded like more bluster to me as when asked how they could possibly cope with the volumes if 50% of the people don't pay he completely avoided answering that.



I dont see how this is feasible myself, the home owner is not always the name on the ESB bill, the numbers will be too high, and its surely a breach of data privacy? Scare tactics imo.


----------



## uptomyeyesin

Do people really think that the government don't have a list of the majority of homes in Ireland? How do we get voting cards, tax statements etc? If the government want to contact me, they know where to come!


----------



## Codogly

Its not that they can't contact each individual that does not pay the charge ...its simply that they cannot raise a judgement mortgage against 1million propertys or 1million summons or 1 million court appearances or any combination of the above , its not possible to take any action against that number of people our courts can't handle even a fraction of the necessary workload.   The Government know this ...that is why you have Phil Hogan on the tv and radio trying to bluff people into registering he knows its doomed to failure if the majority simply refuse to comply.


----------



## monagt

Taxes must be perceived as fair and thus acceptable to the population. 
This tax is unfair as it is not part of an overall reform or adjustment of the tax system in Ireland and is instead an imposition by outside forces on many who have not benefited from the excesses of the boom.
The tipping point in taxes being unacceptable is I think is 50%, so add this to all the taxes imposed, ask yourself is this fair?
If you are in massive negative equity, you actually owe more than house that you paid massive Stamp Duty on, ask yourself is this fair?

Services should be paid for, but not twice, once to central gov and then again to local gov..............thats the issue..................


----------



## Graftgirl

If this tax was so necessary fit and fair why wasn't it introduced during the good times? why wasnt it imposed when there was equity on our property because its just a desperation tax.. The timing is as others have said appalling to bring this in during a property crash when things are so desperate, when we have already had new taxes imposed on us over the last few years is just ignorance on our governments behalf.. 
We paid massive stamp duty on our home not so many years ago and on top of that our home is in massive negative equity. Its bad enough worrying about interest rates on our home loans. If this property tax was so right then it would have been there during the good times..


----------



## Dunlin3

Yes it should have been introduced in the good times when income tax rates were being dropped in the first part of the last decade. You're forgetting one thing though, we had the great Bertie in charge.


----------



## rebecca1999

*Pay small but frequent amounts?*

Hi, 
Does anyone know if you can pay small but frequent amounts at the local council offices or do you have to pay full €100 in one hit. I understand the option for direct debit has now passed.
Thank you 
Rebecca


----------



## Protocol

No mention so far of paying the 100 by instalments in cash.


----------



## Protocol

uptomyeyesin said:


> Do people really think that the government don't have a list of the majority of homes in Ireland? How do we get voting cards, tax statements etc? If the government want to contact me, they know where to come!


 
Unfortunately, they don't.

They have an electoral register, which has me down at my address, but that is not connected to ownership of the house.

Well, elsewhere, in the Land Registry, I presume that I am registered as the owner of this house.

But they don't seem to have a database of all owners.


----------



## Guns N Roses

rebecca1999 said:


> Hi,
> Does anyone know if you can pay small but frequent amounts at the local council offices or do you have to pay full €100 in one hit. I understand the option for direct debit has now passed.
> Thank you
> Rebecca


 
The direct debit installments option has expired. You will have to pay the full amount before the 31st of March.


----------



## partnership

I think that because of all the TDs who are protesting and campaigning against it they have brought about a situation where the property tax will be introduced a lot soon than it would have been and people will end up paying more money earlier than if this campaign had not started.


----------



## monore

rebecca1999 said:


> Hi,
> Does anyone know if you can pay small but frequent amounts at the local council offices or do you have to pay full €100 in one hit. I understand the option for direct debit has now passed.
> Thank you
> Rebecca



Local authorities simply do not have the administrative resources to process multiple small cash payments. It would take a lot of extra staff to provide this option.


----------



## theod

Firstly the household charge is not a tax. It is a charge. Taxes are percentage based and therefore fairer. 

Secondly, and more importantly, there is a huge lie at the heart of the household charge. Not one penny of it will go to local services. It is simply replacing the 170million of our TAX taken away from local authorities. 

How one can support being lied to by one's own government is beyond me. If this were a British government imposing these unfair draconian charges we wouldn't just be on the streets, we'd be on the streets with guns. We were before weren't we! But it seems a few people think it's ok to be abused by a native government. 

And it is just a few. To date just 14% have paid. Yes there may be an increase as the deadline approaches but the majority will not pay. 

I would urge everyone to be at the National Stadium next Saturday at 1 o'clock and express their abhorrence at this government's treatment of the people. 

By all means apply a local tax, payable directly to local authorities, but please don't lie to your own citizens.


----------



## james j

I won't be paying the household charge as i believe we should have to pay an annual amount but I believe business rates should be reduced by 66% because of the extra revenue from this household charge.The Wexford corporation are a joke bunch of fat cats sitting in their  40 odd million building telling people what they do and do not owe


----------



## callybags

> well they are going to get a shock by the end of next week when the % who pay is announced..


 
I don't think they will get a shock or be surprised at all. I'm sure they read the papers and listen to the news like the rest of us.

They will, however implement plans to persue all those who haven't registered by all the means that have been well publicised.

Come the end of the year the % who will have paid will look very different.


----------



## thedaras

I dont get the fact that some TDs are calling for the household charge not to go ahead based on the fact that its not fair..
They instead want a property tax (which will be brought in at a later date),so doesn't that mean that instead of paying just 100euro now,that if the property tax had been brought in on time,we would all be paying a lot more,so what they are doing in effect is getting people to pay more sooner??


----------



## theod

umop3p!sdn said:


> By putting the first few desenters in prison. Everyone else will chicken out, and pay up.



How will they choose who's first NOT to pay! Think about it.


----------



## bazermc

theod said:


> How will they choose who's first NOT to pay! Think about it.


 
Simple draw straws!!!!


----------



## theod

thedaras said:


> I dont get the fact that some TDs are calling for the household charge not to go ahead based on the fact that its not fair..
> They instead want a property tax (which will be brought in at a later date),so doesn't that mean that instead of paying just 100euro now,that if the property tax had been brought in on time,we would all be paying a lot more,so what they are doing in effect is getting people to pay more sooner??



A property tax should include all property for example yachts and a 'Mansion Tax such as that introduced today in Britain. The current proposal is a charge on the home. Many of those in favour of this charge and who are advocating paying it are well off and afraid of the alternative which is a wealth tax. This is why the current proposal is unfair.


----------



## thedaras

Its interesting how some people are happy to call their homes "Homes" to opose the household charge,yet if someone's "HOME" happens to be a Mansion,well they can just pay anyway..
Its really not about people feeling offended that their "home "is being taxed as they seem happy enough to have other peoples "Homes" taxed..


----------



## Marion

I happened to be down in the local County Council offices yesterday and I joined the wrong queue by mistake. It was quite long and I was really puzzled as to why there were so many queuing for motor tax.

The queue was in fact for the household charge. I was really impressed.

There was nobody in the motor tax queue. (long story as to why I was there and completely off topic. )

Marion


----------



## pudds

Ceist Beag said:


> Also I noticed on Six One earlier this week some representative (can't remember which agency he worked for) mentioned that they would be matching up addresses received from ESB networks (via the MPRN number unique to each house meter) with the household charge data to find out which households had not paid the charge.




Isn't it Great!!!!!!!!  to see the government getting some real teeth at long last, in this case one size fits all, if ya can't afford to pay ~ then suffer the consequences.

Shame they couldn't ~ can't ~ or never will deal with the people/criminals who got us into this mess in the first place or are they all one and the same. Makes you think!


----------



## Firefly

Does anyone know if all legal tender is accepted? I have a MASSIVE jar of coins at home and this would be a handy way to get rid of it


----------



## Time

Coins are only legal tender up to a certain amount which is €20. So paying them in coppers won't work.


----------



## truthseeker

You could pay them in 2 euro coins:

[broken link removed]




> "10.—(1) No person, other than the Central Bank of Ireland and such persons as may be designated by the Minister by order, shall be obliged to accept more than 50 coins denominated in euro or in cent in any single transaction.


----------



## Newbie!

Is it possible to do a poll on AAM to see who has paid/intends to pay before the deadline and who does not? I've been watching one on boards.ie and I've always suspected the demography on that forum is very different to this but would just be interested to see the figures for something like the household charge.


----------



## Time

They won't be able to. Game over for the HC.


----------



## truthseeker

Its not over yet, sure they could get 130,000 registrations per day between now and Mar 31st


----------



## truthseeker

Just saw this:



> ENVIRONMENT Minister Phil Hogan has ordered city and county councils to set up teams of staff to call to the homes of people who refuse to pay the €100 household charge.



Calling to your house now eh? 

Luckily I stopped answering the door to strangers years ago.


----------



## Time

Will they be wearing special uniforms? With armbands?


----------



## chrisboy

truthseeker said:


> Just saw this:
> 
> 
> 
> Calling to your house now eh?
> 
> Luckily I stopped answering the door to strangers years ago.



I pity the poor sod who calls to my house.


----------



## mcloving

truthseeker said:


> Just saw this:
> 
> 
> 
> Calling to your house now eh?
> 
> Luckily I stopped answering the door to strangers years ago.



I'll have the hosepipe ready to cleanse the dirt from them.


----------



## thedaras

I have to hand it to the anti Household charge campaign..There was a great turnout of 3000 people today..


----------



## truthseeker

thedaras said:


> I have to hand it to the anti Household charge campaign..There was a great turnout of 3000 people today..



Considering they booked a venue that only holds 2,000 that was a good turnout - it exceeded expectation anyway.

Besides, the anti HC campaign only needs one thing to be successful - people not to pay. They seem to be in the majority on that one.


----------



## timmy

I wonder will they be wearing helmets............


----------



## DerKaiser

Just thought I'd remind everyone:

_If all public debt disappeared overnight and not one cent of interest had to be paid, the State would still need to borrow about €10 billion annually to meet existing spending commitments. (If the State ends up defaulting – and it may well come to that – the short-term impact would be much reduced if there were no primary deficit. *For that reason, it is imperative that the primary deficit be closed as quickly as possible*.)_

Source:[broken link removed]

In the day to day running of the country we are spending €5,000 more per household than is raised in taxes. Whatever about the banking debt, this needs to be covered.

Do people really believe that spreading 2% of this shortfall evenly across each household is unreasonable? Who thinks that they shouldn't be obliged to contribute their fair share to the health, social protection, education, etc costs incurred by the state?

To answer about half the objections on this thread. No, you won't get better services from the state as a result of this charge. What you might get, however, is a less severe cut in the services we currently enjoy that we are not currently paying for.


----------



## bazermc

truthseeker said:


> Just saw this:
> 
> 
> 
> Calling to your house now eh?
> 
> Luckily I stopped answering the door to strangers years ago.


 
I hope they know which houses have paid and skip those and not waste peoples time.


----------



## Gervan

I can't see the point in council employees knocking on doors. If the property is rented, it is not the tenant's responsibility to give out the owner's address, if he even knows it. 
The assumption is that the door-knockers will already know who owns each house, but I thought the self registration requirement stemmed from the fact that this information is not already known.

This sounds like utter desperation.


----------



## ajapale

I hope they know which houses are rented and skip those and not waste peoples time.


----------



## Latrade

DerKaiser said:


> Just thought I'd remind everyone:
> 
> _If all public debt disappeared overnight and not one cent of interest had to be paid, the State would still need to borrow about €10 billion annually to meet existing spending commitments. (If the State ends up defaulting – and it may well come to that – the short-term impact would be much reduced if there were no primary deficit. *For that reason, it is imperative that the primary deficit be closed as quickly as possible*.)_
> 
> Source:[broken link removed]


 
The article is behind a paywall, so I can't comment specifically on this. One important point is the issue of borrowings. Does this figure of €10bn annually includes all borrowing and not just the specific spend on public services? So for example, does it include borrowing for roads and other projects?

The details of the fiscal treaty are interesting (all the measures are in the public domain as they're already committed to), but to just aim for no borrowing isn't always a sign of health or a good thing. States will always have to borrow and that's looked upon as a good thing as it demonstrates progression. My reading is that the fiscal measures portay this too.

The ultimate point then is if that €10bn per year is just to run the public sector or if it includes all projects, not all borrowing is bad.

On to the main debate, I'm not in favour of new charges or levies without some "tax neutral" programme in place. However, I've yet to really be convinced by the arguments from the "no" campaign as to why I shouldn't pay. This is some achievement as, being generous here, Hogan has been a disaster at handling this (so much so he may have a career working in PR for BP). 

I want the services, whether I use all of them is up to me and or circumstance, chance, accidents and other unknowns, but I want them there and they have to be paid for and to be honest, for this year €2 a week isn't exactly too much. 

As always there are issues with the mechanics of this. It should be ring fenced for LAs. The stamp duty issue is a complete red herring, I'm a first time buyer so I never paid it anyway, but I do have to pay management fees for having a house in an estate. As I see it, i'll be double paying for some of the services.


----------



## dereko1969

I only caught a bit of The Week in Politics last night but Joe Costello made a very good point about the fact that SF have no problem in collecting and indeed helping to increase the cost of the Council Tax in Northern Ireland yet are campaigning against a very minor charge down here. 

Yet again SF are speaking out of both sides of their mouths, their record in Government up North bears no relation to how they campaign "down here", they are the very essence of partitionists!


----------



## gipimann

Quote:


> ENVIRONMENT Minister Phil Hogan has ordered city and county councils to set up teams of staff to call to the homes of people who refuse to pay the €100 household charge.


 
Apart from the danger to the council staff who may be asked to collect money (they stopped collecting rent door to door years ago), I'm sure it won't take long for the first reports of bogus household charge collectors to emerge.  Please warn elderly or vulnerable neighbours/relatives.


----------



## DerKaiser

Latrade said:


> Does this figure of €10bn annually includes all borrowing and not just the specific spend on public services? So for example, does it include borrowing for roads and other projects?


http://www.finance.gov.ie/documents/exchequerstatements/2011/enddecexcheqstat.pdf
The total deficit was €25bn in 2011.

The bank bailouts were about €11bn (ILP €2.3bn, Anglo €3.1bn & Other €5.3bn).

Interest on our national debt was €4bn (including past bank bailouts, but primarily accumulated deficits from budget deficits).

That leaves €10bn - I guess this was what he was referring to.


----------



## thedaras

How about those who are shouting so loud about the way the household charge is collected,let us know exactly how they think it should be collected?

They dont like to pay online,
They don't like having to register,
They shout about data protection when a suggestion that the ESB or such like could be used to get the information to house owners.
They want a leaflet.
They want an invoice...

They say some People don't have bank accounts,They have said its socially regressive..its a ruinous austerity policie,its reprehensible.

They say its unfair,Its unjust, The Government are  going to go after utility bills and social welfare,they haven't received a leaflet,they dont know how to pay,they want an invoice..etc etc etc..

Seems to me that they are using vast amounts of energy on problems and zero on solutions!


----------



## thedaras

And where do you think they should get the money to provide you with this basic service?


----------



## monagt

> And where do you think they should get the money to provide you with this basic service?



I don't know because I'm too busy paying off the banking debts while the bankers and politicians pay nothing.
I don't have any money left after helping my children in negative equity and who now have to pay this as well.
I pay for my waste collection and will have to do same for my water and need money for the carbon tax, the extra tax on petrol put on by BrianL, my car tax on the car the Gov persuaded me to buy is going up.

Ever hear of not getting blood out of a stone????


----------



## truthseeker

thedaras said:


> And where do you think they should get the money to provide you with this basic service?



Perhaps if the local authorities budgets were not slashed so that money could be poured into the black hole of bank debt there would be money to pay for a basic service.

I live in a privately managed estate which will never be taken in charge by the local authority and I already pay management fees each year to cover services.


----------



## bazermc

thedaras said:


> And I also paid 48 thousand euro in stamp duty..


 
48K! Holy Moly, how much was the house?


----------



## DerKaiser

monagt said:


> Ever hear of not getting blood out of a stone????


 
I don't know how you private finances stack up, but the state is paying €5k more per household than it takes in and it's pretty much exhausted all other sources of funds. 

Expecting that we can continue to enjoy the same level of services from the state without paying more tax also fits in with the 'blood from a stone' analogy.


----------



## DerKaiser

thedaras said:


> Seems to me that they are using vast amounts of energy on problems and zero on solutions!


 
Agree 100%. It's like the 'Occupy' protests in terms of a lack of one single killer argument. 

When you get 20 different reasons as to why people won't pay it it sound more like excuses.


----------



## truthseeker

DerKaiser said:


> Expecting that we can continue to enjoy the same level of services from the state without paying more tax also fits in with the 'blood from a stone' analogy.



Except the states stone is bloated with PS pay and SW payments that could be looked at. Whereas my personal stone has nothing left in it.


----------



## DerKaiser

truthseeker said:


> Except the states stone is bloated with PS pay and SW payments that could be looked at.


 
An therein lies the issue.  The state could obviously allocate its resources in a way you would perceive as being fairer, but someone in the PS or on SW would not agree with your view.  

We've collectively elected a government to make decisions on what's a fair way of raising revenues and allocating spending. I would do it one way, you would do it another, someone in the PS might have a different view, whilst someone on SW will have other ideas. 

We can't all get our way.  Collectively we need to stump up that €160m from somewhere. If we don't pay a flat tax amounting to €160m, we will either get €160m less of services or pay €160m extra taxes in some other form. The democratically elected government has made a decision.

In all honesty the €160m is actually a sideshow when you consider an addiditional €5bn-€10bn is needed in cuts/taxes.


----------



## truthseeker

DerKaiser said:


> We can't all get our way.  Collectively we need to stump up that €160m from somewhere. If we don't pay a flat tax amounting to €160m, we will either get €160m less of services or pay €160m extra taxes in some other form. The democratically elected government has made a decision.



I agree with you but fundamentally I think that people are angry about this particular tax for a variety of different reasons and it is unpalatable to what currently appears to be the majority of people liable for it to pay up under those circumstances. Its clear that people see this as an opportunity to protest by not paying.

The democratically elected government have gone back on their pre election promises and not followed through with their manifesto that allowed them to get elected in the first place. Not only that but if you remember back to the General Election, many many people claimed they were only voting FG to get rid of FF and that FG were the best of a bad lot - so I dont think there is a huge amount of government loyalty out there.



DerKaiser said:


> In all honesty the €160m is actually a sideshow when you consider an addiditional €5bn-€10bn is needed in cuts/taxes.



Agreed - so why such bully boy tactics from the government on this drop in the ocean?

Even if I had been intending to pay, the recent behaviour of the government in relation to this issue has disgusted me and would make me far less inclined to do so. My FIL is actively worried that someone is going to knock on his front door demanding money or that somehow his electricity will be cut off because they bandied about ESB bills in the media as a way of tracking people down. Disgraceful behaviour.

Edited to add - and now on foot of the government issuing threats of people calling to your door - the con men have taken the opportunity - it was obvious that this is what would happen.



> Meath Co. Council is warning homeowners not to hand over money after reports that people have been posing as council staff and knocking door-to-door to collect the household charge.
> 
> A number of such incidents have been reported in the Meath area in recent days.
> 
> In a statement, the council confirmed it does not have any staff or agents collecting the €100 levy on its behalf.
> 
> It warned people who are approached not to hand over any monies, and to contact gardaí immediately.


----------



## ajapale

serotoninsid said:


> This is a *service* charge - if you want to enforce a *service* charge, then you provide basic *services*.



Is a _*precursor property tax*_ levied on property owners.


----------



## Brendan Burgess

I feel that serotonsid's point merits its own thread:

I am not paying the Household Charge because...http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=167650


----------



## bullworth

ajapale said:


> Is a _*precursor property tax*_ levied on property owners.



The problem I have is that for the overwhelming number of those liable, even a property tax instead of a charge like this is a tax on their debt not on their wealth. Capital gains or inheritance tax is a tax on wealth. Why don't they just introduce capital gains tax on the family home instead if they feel so strongly about taxing wealth ? At least people would then be able to feel secure in their homes in their old age, homes they worked hard for and already paid huge taxes for without fear that the taxman can ''evict'' them.


----------

