# Is it now ‘cool’ to visit prostitutes?



## PMU (28 Nov 2006)

I’m no prude but I’ve always thought that paying for sex is really scraping the bottom of the barrel. I mean, you really are a social failure if you have to do this (unless it’s for something really kinky that no respectable girl would do).  So, while cruising the red light district in Amsterdam last week (purely as it is a tourist attraction to see what happens and for no other reason) I noticed two groups of Irish lads, say late teens - early 20s, visiting prostitutes. Now it can’t be that difficult to get laid in Ireland today, so why pay for sex? Is it now cool to do so? Or is it just something you do when in Amsterdam like take a trip on the canals or visit Anne Frank’s house?  [FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]


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## jdwex (28 Nov 2006)

PMU said:


> [FONT=&quot] Is it now cool to do so?


[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]No[/FONT]


PMU said:


> [FONT=&quot]Or is it just something you do when in Amsterdam like take a trip on the canals or visit Anne Frank’s house? [/FONT]


 
Not cool-any reasonably attractive man shouldn't have to resort to a prostitute. 
Some eejits with partners think it isn't really cheating if they have sex with a prostitute


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## ClubMan (28 Nov 2006)

PMU said:


> [FONT=&quot]I’m no prude but I’ve always thought that paying for sex is really scraping the bottom of the barrel.[/FONT]


Who cares? If it involves two (or more?) consenting adults, no harm (although I guess that this could be indirect rather than just direct?) to any non consenting third party (parties?) and no breach of the law then that's their business. Of course, most of the time, one or more of these conditions is not actually met unfortunately but that's the responsibility of the individuals involved.


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## liteweight (29 Nov 2006)

How do you know they were visiting prostitutes? Maybe they were just doing the same thing as yourself.......cruising?


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## MugsGame (29 Nov 2006)

Is it now 'cool' to cruise red light districts?


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## JohnBoy (29 Nov 2006)

as long as you look but do not touch


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## Ron Burgundy (29 Nov 2006)

your going to end up paying for it one way or another


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## elefantfresh (29 Nov 2006)

exactly Ron - how much is a new conservatory????


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## Ron Burgundy (29 Nov 2006)

or dinner for two followed by drinks......

or a new car......

or new shoes......

or doing the washing up.....

i can go on


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## Betsy Og (29 Nov 2006)

not having visited same nor intending to do so, I think they should legalise it. Take out the "pimp" element, human trafficking etc.

A regulated building in a commercial area (quiet at night), no signage, health checks, security etc. etc.

Then crack down on any other such activity.

By keeping it discreet I dont think you encourage the "problem", and much of the problems of prostitution arise from the fact that its illegal (IMHO).


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## r2d2 (29 Nov 2006)

Betsy Og said:


> not having visited same nor intending to do so, I think they should legalise it. Take out the "pimp" element, human trafficking etc.
> 
> A regulated building in a commercial area (quiet at night), no signage, health checks, security etc. etc.
> .


 
They've done that already...it's called Slapper face jacks !


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## liteweight (29 Nov 2006)

Ron Burgundy said:


> or dinner for two followed by drinks......
> 
> or a new car......
> 
> ...



I could go on and on too...washing his underwear, getting paint out of trousers...........

I think cruising brings more danger to an area than the prostitution itself. Betsyog is right, make it legal and a lot of the problems associated with the oldest profession goes away. Years ago I had a friend who lived on Leeson Street. She was terrified to walk home after working late as invariably some 'cruiser' would stop and proposition her.


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## zephyro (29 Nov 2006)

liteweight said:


> make it legal and a lot of the problems associated with the oldest profession goes away



You could say the same about drugs as well, unfortunately these appear to be minority views.


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## MOB (29 Nov 2006)

If making it legal was enough to get rid of the problems, then places like Amsterdam would not have problems.  My understanding is that they do.  I understand that many women in prostitution are at best only slightly willing participants, often having been trafficked\sold into the job.  If you take it as a given that we will always have prostitution, it still does not necessarily follow that it is better regulated than criminalised.  I can't decide myself which side of the debate I favour.  It's a thorny issue


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## Betsy Og (29 Nov 2006)

you would think that if theres enough supply of legal that the demand for illegal would drop - thats where the enforcement of law would come in. If every kerb crawler was questioned/frightened/prosecuted then surely only a mug would opt for that rather than the legal version.

& if the money went out of it then illegal forms of prostitution should, in thoery anyway, diminish to a large degree.

and in theory lead to less victimisation of women etc.

I keep saying in theory but I dont know the facts but the Amsterdam situation should be a good example of how it works in practice.

The difference between legalising drugs and prostitution is that you cant overdose on nookie, you can get addicted but this may not have as serious consequences (I'm thinking "self-supply" - but I wont develop that argument any further ...  ), it is not unhealthy (given precautions & the health of both parties). 

Its one of those situation where the typical Irish solution to an Irish problem (i.e. just largely ignoring it) is not working.

What do the womens advocacy groups have to say about it?


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## liteweight (29 Nov 2006)

MOB said:


> If making it legal was enough to get rid of the problems, then places like Amsterdam would not have problems.  My understanding is that they do.  I understand that many women in prostitution are at best only slightly willing participants, often having been trafficked\sold into the job.  If you take it as a given that we will always have prostitution, it still does not necessarily follow that it is better regulated than criminalised.  I can't decide myself which side of the debate I favour.  It's a thorny issue



You're right, it is a (t)horny issue! I didn't say all the problems would disappear but some would. For example, the aforementioned cruising, pimps of the old school type, spread of disease from male and female prostitutes who do not have regular health checks. I'm sure there are less women/men sold into prostitution in Amsterdam than elsewhere. When a brothel is regulated by both police and social welfare departments, surely anyone in this position has a fighting chance of getting out.


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## ubiquitous (29 Nov 2006)

Betsy Og said:


> Its one of those situation where the typical Irish solution to an Irish problem (i.e. just largely ignoring it) is not working.?



Hardly either fair or accurate to call this a "typical Irish solution to an Irish problem" when both the problem itself and the broad thrust of our establishment's policy to deal with the issue are shared with the vast majority of developed nations?  



Betsy Og said:


> What do the womens advocacy groups have to say about it?



Ruhama http://www.ruhama.ie/  who work with women involved in prostitution, strongly oppose legalisation, and have published a position paper "Uncovering the Misconceptions: The Realities of Legalized Prostitution" outlining their case


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## auto320 (29 Nov 2006)

Interesting question, not one that bothers me I hasten to add, although I have used the argument in favour to wind up a politician acquaintance on social occasions.

As far as I know, maybe someone will correect me, prostitution isn't illegal in Ireland, i.e there is nothing stopping two consenting adults from having sex and then exchanging money. If that were the case, we would all be in trouble -- I can't recall how many times Mrs Auto got a few extra quid out of me following a good roll in the hay. The crime is in soliciting, but that is only one element of it.

On a more serious note, there is strong evidence that many women are either (at best) drawn into prostitution by economic necessity, or are actually doing it against their will. Is this what the lads on a night out in Amsterdam would like to be involved in if they thought it through? Take it a bit further, and ask themselves this is a career option they would want for their own daughters? When we put in in human terms, its not so cool after all, and that's what the sex industry does, it dehumanises these women.


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## ClubMan (29 Nov 2006)

Betsy Og said:


> not having visited same nor intending to do so, I think they should legalise it. Take out the "pimp" element, human trafficking etc.


For what it's worth, according to the _Gardai _most of the prostitutes that they used to caution or arrest in the _Benburb Street _and surrounding areas (not as much of an issue as it was in past years) had no pimps as far as they could see - most were junkies on the game to fund their habits. Many of the same prostitutes frequented other areas in _Dublin _such as along certain canal banks.

I don't disagree with much the rest of your analysis though.


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## Vanilla (30 Nov 2006)

> your going to end up paying for it one way or another


 


> exactly Ron - how much is a new conservatory????


 


> I can't recall how many times Mrs Auto got a few extra quid out of me following a good roll in the hay.


 
If the posters of the above quotes really believe their words, then I have to say I feel sorry for them. IMO such statements are tasteless.


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## elefantfresh (30 Nov 2006)

Do you mean the statements are tasteless or without any truth?


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## Vanilla (30 Nov 2006)

Since that really depends on your relationship, I'd have to opt for the former.


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## Marie M (30 Nov 2006)

I agree with OP, I know of lots of lads who would tell you out straight of their escapades in with the "chinese massage therapist",you wouldn't believe the places where it goes on, in apartments in town, houses in normal suburbia, and I know this for a fact, in a part of a well known pub complex. They shame of telling all and sundry about it is not there anymore.


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## rabbit (30 Nov 2006)

Saw a programme on the TV about prostitution / escort agencies in Australia. I think its legal there, or at least in some states there. I got the impression its more normal, safer for everyone, more upfront , and tolerated. 

Reminds me of many years ago sitting on a long train journey from Sydney to Melbourne once and the person beside me ( who I did not know ) getting chatting and after 5 or 10 minutes asking the respectable looking stranger ( an attractive woman ) opposite what they did for a living. Turns out she was a "working girl". Conversation went something like " Do you like it ?" " Yea, its a nice house " etc etc. 
Bit of a culture shock from Ireland of the 80's..


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## brian.mobile (30 Nov 2006)

Look, sex is a commodity like everything else. It may take some time but Ireland will have it's redlight district, maybe not now but down the line - for sure....

BM


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## rabbit (1 Dec 2006)

brian.mobile said:


> Look, sex is a commodity like everything else. It may take some time but Ireland will have it's redlight district, maybe not now but down the line - for sure....
> 
> BM


 

Will have ?   I thought in years gone by Dublin, for example, did have areas which could be described thus ?


Thing is, if you put it close to a resedential area you could affect unfairly the people living there.  Its a difficult one, but I believe a regulated industry where there is no exploitation, regular health checks etc is in everyones interest.   After all, they say it is the worlds oldest profession, and it will not go away.    If they are consenting adults they can do what they want as long as they do not affect anyone else, as far as I am concerned.   Its probably a safety valve for some people in society anyway.  Just my humble opinion.


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## Gabriel (1 Dec 2006)

PMU said:


> I’m no prude but I’ve always thought that paying for sex is really scraping the bottom of the barrel. I mean, you really are a social failure if you have to do this (unless it’s for something really kinky that no respectable girl would do).  So, while cruising the red light district in Amsterdam last week (purely as it is a tourist attraction to see what happens and for no other reason) I noticed two groups of Irish lads, say late teens - early 20s, visiting prostitutes. Now it can’t be that difficult to get laid in Ireland today, so why pay for sex? Is it now cool to do so? Or is it just something you do when in Amsterdam like take a trip on the canals or visit Anne Frank’s house?  [FONT=&quot]
> [/FONT]




Hilarious debate this. Based on the original point then...the point seems to be that visting prostitutes (one of the oldest professions in the world) is only for social misfits...unless it's for something really kinky!! Does that make it socially acceptable then?

For the record I am not anti-prostitution but I have never felt the need to visit one. The industry should be regulated and arguing that areas where regulation has failed is proof that it shouldn't be tried is missing the point entirely. Some democracies are a sham in some countries. Does this prove that democracy doesn't work? For the record prostitution is legal in Victoria and at least from the outside appears to be a decent working model of regulation.

Whilst I appreciate that women in particular can often be appalled by the sex industry and talk about stopping it altogether...this is not a likely outcome. To sneer at prostitution or sex as a commodity is to misunderstand human nature and society in general...in my humble opinion.


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## PMU (16 Dec 2006)

[FONT=&quot]Interesting comments received on my original post. I wasn’t debating the rights or wrongs of prostitution (of which I've no problem), but just that I found it rather sad that I saw Irish teens / early 20s paying for sex in Amsterdam – and believe me they were paying rather than just looking.  I would have thought that in this day and age it’s not that difficult for a teen to get laid, so why pay for it?  Maybe the kids I saw were not typical but Marie M’s post of 30 11: “[/FONT]_[FONT=&quot]I know of lots of lads who would tell you out straight of their escapades in with the "chinese massage therapist",you wouldn't believe the places where it goes o[/FONT]_[FONT=&quot]n”. would indicate that perhaps kids do visit prostitutes more than I would expect.. Jacques Brel wrote a song ‘Amsterdam’ in which a young sailor ‘poured out his youth in the belly of whores’. I would have thought that in these days Irish kids could do better than that.[/FONT]


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## ClubMan (16 Dec 2006)

PMU said:


> [FONT=&quot]Jacques Brel wrote a song ‘Amsterdam’ in which a young sailor ‘poured out his youth in the belly of whores’. I would have thought that in these days Irish kids could do better than that.[/FONT]


Yeah - that was one of his worse songs alright.


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## liteweight (16 Dec 2006)

Vanilla said:


> If the posters of the above quotes really believe their words, then I have to say I feel sorry for them. IMO such statements are tasteless.



Absolutely agree...more to be pitied than laughed at.

Although I agree that sex is more readily available these days, it's not available for everyone. For example, some older men, perhaps single, perhaps widowed may visit a prostitute. These are not looking for love, just sex with no strings attached. To imagine that all young men in Ireland can avail of 'free' sex means that there are young women out there ready and willing to sleep with anything with a pulse....dream on!!


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## sunrock (16 Dec 2006)

As a frequenter of prostitutes in the past. i think our whole attitude to prostitution was/is ridiculosis.
We lived in a society in ireland that was very repressive...sex outside marriage was frowned on and believe me ,there were not that many "free thinking" girls around....even condoms were illegal!
Then with  a large number of frustrated men from their teens up.....the authorities  decided that prostitution was evil and it only existed in shady back streets of our major cities.
I BELIEVE  the model to be followed is like that in germany or austria....basically the prostitutes have their own rooms in a big building...are medically tested and practise safe sex  and charge reasonable rates,in a very nice atmosphere. Everything is state regulated and above board.
Of course no girl would be working against their will.
The most frequent clients of prostitutes are young men due to human nature.....not old men who can`t get a girlfriend as mentioned by another poster.
I think we should have such a building in every  town...pop greater than 10,000 .....the price should be reasonable...maybe 30 to 60 euro depending on the girl etc
I`m sure people will say such like exists already.with massage parlors  and phone numbers of prositutes, and brothels that keep changing address and street girls but surely it`s alot better to have it legal and run like a business.
The problem with this illegal prostitution is that the girls are usually junkies  maybe walking the streets......surely our young men deserve better.


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## Persius (16 Dec 2006)

Some posters are asking "Why do young Irish males pay for sex?"
The answer is often quite simple. A guarantee of sex and zero comittments afterwards. Not even Copperface Jacks can offer that ;-)

Seriously though, I do believe that it should be legalised. In Germany there are strict laws on where a brothel can be located. It is only allowed in towns/cities above a certain population. I forget the figure but think it's between 30,000 and 50,000. Brothels can't be located in residential areas or near schools, so many of them are located either in traditional inner city red-light districts, or in industrial estates (which are typically deserted in the evenings).

Unfortunatly legalisation doesn't prevent trafficing. German authorities have uncovered a number of brothels where women were being held against their will and forced into sex. These women are typically from outside the EU and have no legal right to work in Germany. It's a simple problem of resources. Much more brothels than inspectors able to check them out.

However legalistion does make trafficing more difficult. Punters are less likely to go somewhere where women are forced to provide a service (most people would be able to recognise this) when there are so many alternatives where women freely provide a service in reasonable surroundings. For these women, it's their own choice to go into prostitution - the money is alot better than working at a checkout in Aldi. Legalisation also removes the pimp from the equation and practically eliminates street prostitution.

I mentioned in another post that the bigest single group of prostitues in Ireland are actually from Britain. Many of them are students coming over for a short time to make some quick money to finance their studies. You could hardly say that these women are being compelled by economic necessity. It's a free choice.

As to "whether it's cool?". No, I don't think so. But equally I don't think there's anything "uncool" about it. It's a simple business transaction, just like getting your hair cut or car washed.


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## auto320 (16 Dec 2006)

Would love to know the name of your barber!


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## ClubMan (16 Dec 2006)

I have sex with my barber on a regular basis.*


_ * I'm married to her! _


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## Sue Ellen (16 Dec 2006)

ClubMan said:


> I have sex with my barber on a regular basis.*
> 
> 
> _* I'm married to her! _


 
If you have an argument with her does she make a mess of your next haircut? Visions of words kit kat cut into hair come to mind.


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## r2d2 (16 Dec 2006)

ClubMan said:


> I have sex with my barber on a regular basis.*
> 
> 
> _* I'm married to her! _


 
And you still have sex with her.....?? What am I doing wrong....Mrs d2, come and read this !


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## Sue Ellen (16 Dec 2006)

r2d2 said:


> And you still have sex with her.....?? *What am I doing wrong*....Mrs d2, come and read this !


 
And you need to ask


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## almo (17 Dec 2006)

A couple of thoughts came to mind when reading through this ver enlightening thread.  Just over 2 years ago I was in Cologne and Frankfurt for 4-5 days.  3 of them I spent with my future wife (as our first romantic weekend break totally alone) in the former city.  The weekend in question was the Ireland-France game in Paris, and a lot of Irish fans (messed about by Ryanair) were flying into Dusseldorf on the Friday and travelling on via Cologne to Paris.  I met the same groups flying in and out, and while standing waiting for the train to Dusseldorf a group of men, well spoken and dressed (on the Tuesday) were all boasting about having visited a brothel in Cologne and the number of women they "pleasured" before they had to "buy the wife something nice".  All were wearing gold bands and I couldn't help but feel slightly disgusted by them.  

2nd, in yesterday's main National newspaper here there was an article on a young Ukranian prostitute who very recently died from HIV complications.  It seems she was working in Istria and the call was put out for her former clients and customers to get in touch and get tested.  This comes 2 years after another young Ukranian girl, only known as Yulia, went into the hospital in Mostar with a cold and temperature and was dead inside 48hours and had full blown AIDS and a host of other infections.  Again the panic went around Dalmatia as the area is where young men go to become "real" men.  The young woman died alone and was buried in a paupers plot in the local cemetery.  The story (as will yesterday's) died off in a matter of days, and the general opinion, from women I spoke with: "Oh, those girls from Russia and Ukraine are all the same, they do it for money".  

Folks, does anyone, for one moment think, that all those womn working in Holland, Germany, the UK, Ireland are all doing it for the good of their health?  That they all have a choice?  Are we getting mixed up in our ideas regarding the massive problem of people and sex trafficking we live amongst?  In Montenegro this summer 4 Albanian girls (none older than 18) were freed from a glorified farmhouse outside Podgorica that had visitors registered from everywhere, including Laois and Meath!

When Dundalk got it's lapdancing club it became instantly known (and boasted about) how much it cost to spend a night and where to spend it with dancers who were offering more than a little damhsa.


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## Gabriel (17 Dec 2006)

almo said:


> Folks, does anyone, for one moment think, that all those womn working in Holland, Germany, the UK, Ireland are all doing it for the good of their health?  That they all have a choice?  Are we getting mixed up in our ideas regarding the massive problem of people and sex trafficking we live amongst?  In Montenegro this summer 4 Albanian girls (none older than 18) were freed from a glorified farmhouse outside Podgorica that had visitors registered from everywhere, including Laois and Meath!



This is precisely the reason why prostitution should be legalised and closely policed. I do not believe it is impossible to get rid of human traffiking if the industry is properly policed. You will never get rid of a sex industry...so the only logical thing to do is make it as safe for the girls who 'choose' that lifestyle...and there are girls who choose it.


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## sunrock (17 Dec 2006)

Surely,that`s the whole point about legalising prostitution....you get clean girls medically tested on aregular basis..the girls are all voluntary workers...some may be working without proper work permits if outside e.u. but that `s o.k.
If you agree that fellahs are going to have sex with prostitutes even going to istra etc..wherever that is     ... surely it`s better to go to a legal brothel than some street junkie. Guys aren`t stupid....they will go for  a legal,safe sex brothel in preference to some street junkie.
The benefits to society are good too....guys feel good that they can have sex anytime they want it.....and girls are not being hassled to have sex .
Its incredible that our attitudes to this prostitution ....were shaped by the clergy who mostly were  not sympathetic to the normal hetersexual urges of young men  and  a lot of "hail mary" women whose attitude seemed to be ....well if i can`t have fun i don`t want the guys to have fun!
We really need to get our act together and legalise it and at the same time clamp down on the street/junkie/unsafe....
Knowing ireland it probably won`t be done until some rich buisnessman "arranges it" and makes ahuge profit from the punters.


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## PMU (17 Dec 2006)

ClubMan said:


> Yeah - that was one of his worse songs alright.



Perhaps not one of Brel's worst songs - just a poor English translation of the lyrics by Rod McKuen


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## Betsy Og (6 Sep 2018)

This was on the Ciara Kelly show yesterday. There was the American girl from SWAI - who is a sex worker - you've probably heard her on radio before.

I knew we'd discussed this here before. Scanning back over the thread, my views haven't changed, its not for me, but illegality breeds crime and harm. Legalise, regulate, drive the criminals and traffickers out, help the destitute and drug addicted with services & support and don't have them forced into it.

We've legislated for abortion which, in my mind, is much more morally charged. It's not often I agree with Mick Wallace but I think he was right to raise it. Is there the will to change it or do people think we're better as we are. Sex is a fundamental human need, demand will always exist, what's wrong with safe supply - all we have now is crime & associated problems.


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## dub_nerd (6 Sep 2018)

Similar arguments have been applied to aspects of drug use. In San Francisco, a needle programme has reduced the number of new HIV infections among heroin users by one per week. It has also made the city incredibly unpleasant for inhabitants and visitors, as you have to step over strung-out junkies and mounds of syringes everywhere. Two million of the five million needles handed out annually are discarded on the streets.


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## Delboy (6 Sep 2018)

It was on Newstalk yesterday because Lily Allen, well know SJW and angry landlord, admitted to using female escorts while on tour. She broke silence on it just before some media organisation ran with in.


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## Betsy Og (6 Sep 2018)

dub_nerd said:


> Similar arguments have been applied to aspects of drug use. In San Francisco, a needle programme has reduced the number of new HIV infections among heroin users by one per week. It has also made the city incredibly unpleasant for inhabitants and visitors, as you have to step over strung-out junkies and mounds of syringes everywhere. Two million of the five million needles handed out annually are discarded on the streets.



Is there an equivalent negative by-product of legalisation and regulation of prostitution? At least it would all be happening indoors, no dicarded items on streets, in parks, canals and what not. Not sure demand would increase, or by much, and in any event isnt that a moral choice of the purchaser. If its all consenting adults and healthcare is observed then ...well... let em at it. In fact I recall hearing of a project in Kalgoorlie (mining town near Perth) that legalised brothels and sex assaults decreased - so perhaps it "took the edge off" some of the potential offenders.

San Francisco has always been a homeless capital, mostly for climatic reasons. I've never seen a syringe there - been around it a few times in recent years. But anyways, different point. On the drug use, I think we should leaglise spamspamspam for pretty much all the same reasons - and again I dont partake so no "skin in the game", to choose an unfortunate phrase for this discussion...


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## Easeler (7 Sep 2018)

Ya had to laugh at local news report o  the 2 students, she said they slept with 2 prostitutes, don't think there was much sleeping going on.


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## Purple (10 Sep 2018)

If it takes place without any form of coercion on either party then I have no problem with it. 
The fact that human trafficking, slavery by another name, is worth $32 billion a year and of the 25 million people (79% of them are women and girls) in that form of slavery. 
Nearly 5 million are sex workers. 79% of those are women and girls. 
If you have sex with someone without their freely given consent then you are raping them. That's nearly 5 million people, many of them children, raped on a daily basis.

So, I have no problem with prostitution but I have a big problem with the criminal element which profits from it and there is a strong chance that such criminality will remain in the background if it is legalised. It may just be another cash business for them to wash their dirty month through.


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