# Ireland the most English country in the World



## Duke of Marmalade (16 Aug 2018)

I was in a French taxi recently when the driver asked me do we speak Anglais en Irlande. That set me thinking and indeed according to Wiki at 93% Ireland has the highest percentage in the World of people with English as a first language.  I presume the other 7% are made up of Poles etc.
Selected other percentages are: UK 92%, New Zealand 86%, US 79%, Australia 70%, Canada 53%.


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## TheBigShort (16 Aug 2018)

I'd say its higher than 93%. Most Poles etc use English here as well.


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## Duke of Marmalade (16 Aug 2018)

TheBigShort said:


> I'd say its higher than 93%. Most Poles etc use English here as well.


I stressed first language. 98.4% of ROI citizens can speak the Queen’s English.  Still higher than 97.8% for UK, 95.4% for US, 97% for Australia, 97.8% for NZ, 80% for Canada.


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## TheBigShort (16 Aug 2018)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> I stressed first language. 98.4% of ROI citizens can speak the Queen’s English.  Still higher than 97.8% for UK, 95.4% for US, 97% for Australia, 97.8% for NZ, 80% for Canada.



Ok, that is what I meant. My confusion, I accept Polish is the first language of the Poles.
But many Poles living here (I know of 2)dont _use_ Polish as their first language. Instead they use English all the time with the exception of talking to other Poles. Which means that they now consider English their first language of _use. _
I know one Pole who spoke Polish all the time to his first child. 2nd and 3rd child, not so much. Apparently, its hard to teach!


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## Purple (16 Aug 2018)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> I stressed first language. 98.4% of ROI citizens can speak the Queen’s English.  Still higher than 97.8% for UK, 95.4% for US, 97% for Australia, 97.8% for NZ, 80% for Canada.


That can't be right; there's no way what AMericans speak could be described as the Queen's English (God bless her and all who sail in her!).


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## dub_nerd (16 Aug 2018)

TheBigShort said:


> ...they now consider English their first language of _use._



I'm gonna be pedantic and say your first language is the language you were brought up in, not one you've adopted even if it's the one you use the most.


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## dub_nerd (16 Aug 2018)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> I stressed first language. 98.4% of ROI citizens can speak the Queen’s English.  Still higher than 97.8% for UK, 95.4% for US, 97% for Australia, 97.8% for NZ, 80% for Canada.



I'm amazed English ability is so low in Canada. Wikipedia says it's somewhat higher at 85% but I'm still surprised. That makes it lower than either Denmark or the Netherlands. The major factor seems to be that nearly two thirds of Quebecois can't speak English, which I can only suspect is down to stubbornness.


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## TheBigShort (16 Aug 2018)

dub_nerd said:


> I'm gonna be pedantic and say your first language is the language you were brought up in, not one you've adopted even if it's the one you use the most.



Thats what I would have thought. But as the figure was high at 93% I incorrectly took it to mean first laguage of _use _assumed it was therefore to be higher.
Because if we go by your interpretation the CSO paints a different picture.
Accordingly, 612,000 irish residents spoke a foreign language at home.
I would assume these to be languages that the resident has been brought up in ie mother tongue.
So that would actually reduce our % quite a bit, somewhere below 90% anyway.


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## Duke of Marmalade (16 Aug 2018)

TheBigShort said:


> Ok, that is what I meant. My confusion, I accept Polish is the first language of the Poles.
> But many Poles living here (I know of 2)dont _use_ Polish as their first language. Instead they use English all the time with the exception of talking to other Poles. Which means that they now consider English their first language of _use. _
> I know one Pole who spoke Polish all the time to his first child. 2nd and 3rd child, not so much. Apparently, its hard to teach!


Ahh!  A further concept being introduced here - which country *uses* English most in its day to day communication?  Very difficult to measure I would imagine, but Ireland would fall behind on this measure given the affectation of some to “curry me yoghurt” even though their first language is English.


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## TheBigShort (16 Aug 2018)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> Ireland would fall behind on this measure given the affectation of some to curry me yoghurt even though their first language is English.



Whats with the adoption of infantile mocking over the Irish language? 

Nevermind, CSO again....

1.7% of population use Irish on a daily basis as a first language. 
39.8% state they can speak Irish or 1.7million.

Of that 1.7m only one in four said they never use it. 

The largest cohort of daily Irish speakers is in Dublin (14,903).
111,473 speak it on a weekly basis.
As Gaeltacht areas are not exactly industrial hotspots its safe to presume that those that leave that area for employment probably reduce its usage, albeit it remains their mother tongue.

Perhaps the Duke could provide a link? As its confusing as to what the parameters are here. Canada at 53% indicates the question is about 'mother tongue' while usage is probably higher?
UK at 92% probably represents usage, while mother tongue would reduce that figure


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## Duke of Marmalade (16 Aug 2018)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_English-speaking_population uses two headings “Total English speakers” and “As first language”.  No column for usage though some of the commentary is helpful.


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## TheBigShort (16 Aug 2018)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_English-speaking_population uses two headings “Total English speakers” and “As first language”.  No column for usage though some of the commentary is helpful.



Thanks for that, the column "total English speakers" would imply usage?
 Ireland stands at 98.37%. A shortfall of 1.63% to hit the max. This figure almost correlates with the 1.7% Gaeltacht areas but I would hazard a guess it is more likely attributable to immigrants with no English.
In CSO 2016 census 86,608 people indicated that they couldn't speak English 'not well' or 'not at all'.


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## Duke of Marmalade (16 Aug 2018)

TheBigShort said:


> Thanks for that, the column "total English speakers" would imply usage?


I am not sure.  Canada is the real interesting one.  53% English first language, 80% English speakers.  As _dub_nerd _observes the Quebecois are the factor here.  They would mostly be first language French but also be English speakers. However, on principle similar to curry my yoghurt I would think their usage would be mostly French.


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## TheBigShort (17 Aug 2018)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> Canada is the real interesting one. 53% English first language, 80% English speakers. As _dub_nerd _observes the Quebecois are the factor here. They would mostly be first language French but also be English speakers.



That makes perfect sense to me. I would imagine when in Quebec, Quebecans (Quebecites?!?) speak French, when in British Colombia or other English speaking areas, they speak English. I think Toronto and Vancouver are both English speaking cities?
So those stats of 53% Engligh first language but 80% speakers make sense to me.


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## Purple (17 Aug 2018)

TheBigShort said:


> That makes perfect sense to me. I would imagine when in Quebec, Quebecans (Quebecites?!?) speak French, when in British Colombia or other English speaking areas, they speak English. I think Toronto and Vancouver are both English speaking cities?
> So those stats of 53% Engligh first language but 80% speakers make sense to me.


22% of Canadians are immigrants (twice as high as here) so I'm sure many of them count English as a second language.


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## TheBigShort (17 Aug 2018)

Purple said:


> 22% of Canadians are immigrants (twice as high as here) so I'm sure many of them count English as a second language.



For sure.

Anyway, we are ahead of the pack in our English usage and English recognition as a first language - do we get a prize?


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## odyssey06 (17 Aug 2018)

TheBigShort said:


> For sure.
> Anyway, we are ahead of the pack in our English usage and English recognition as a first language - do we get a prize?



Yes, full appreciation of the cultural output of the Anglosphere... I type that while listening to a BBC radio podcast...


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## Betsy Og (20 Aug 2018)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> given the affectation of some to “curry me yoghurt” even though their first language is English.


 Grrrr, what's with this channeling the DUP??!! Long before the jailteacht was the gaeltacht. Just because some people think SF have weaponised the language does not make it so. I drove through Wales lately and its full of bi-linugal signs, and there are many in Scotland I believe. So for once I'd stand with those (not just SF btw) demanding an Irish language act in Norn Iron. It's either parity of esteem or its not. As the DUP tries to haul NI back to the 1600's, ROI is closer to Britain in many respects that the brethren up North (I thought that was going to be the subject of the thread...).

On matters NI, what did I pick up in a 2nd hand bookshop in a very english town (Had a Conservative Club, and even an odd Union flag...and odd one mind you, not plastered with them a la NI) only Falls Memories, by our very own culinary genius Gerry. It's ok, not rushing back to it, its fairly 'Penny Apples' type stuff, but good chapters about the linen industry etc. etc. Written in 1982 I think, dark times for such relatively light fare.

Gabh me leitsceal a cairdre, ta me "off topic" mar a dearfa. Codhladh samh.


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## Purple (21 Aug 2018)

Betsy Og said:


> Just because some people think SF have weaponised the language does not make it so. I drove through Wales lately and its full of bi-linugal signs, and there are many in Scotland I believe. So for once I'd stand with those (not just SF btw) demanding an Irish language act in Norn Iron. It's either parity of esteem or its not.


 It's the "gail-gores" here that get to me. Their attitude that if you live on the side of a hill in Kerry, play the fiddle, speak pigeon Irish and live off hand-outs you are somehow more Irish than a native who speaks English. It's ironic that the Kerry Gaeltacht is the largest bilingual area in the country and the only place where we don't have bilingual road signs. They live off tourists and government and EU handouts and yet they ensure that nobody can read the signs. It's that smug superiority that puts me off. 



Betsy Og said:


> As the DUP tries to haul NI back to the 1600's, ROI is closer to Britain in many respects that the brethren up North (I thought that was going to be the subject of the thread...).


 I've always felt more at home in England than in Northern Ireland. England still feels foreign but Northern Ireland feels foreign and small and tribal and like something out of the past. My biggest fear post Brexit is that we'll end up with a united Ireland.


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## odyssey06 (21 Aug 2018)

Purple said:


> It's the "gail-gores" here that get to me. Their attitude that if you live on the side of a hill in Kerry, play the fiddle, speak pigeon Irish and live off hand-outs you are somehow more Irish than a native who speaks English. It's ironic that the Kerry Gaeltacht is the largest bilingual area in the country and the only place where we don't have bilingual road signs. They live off tourists and government and EU handouts and yet they ensure that nobody can read the signs. It's that smug superiority that puts me off.



Exactly, I have no problem with those who love the language or who treasure it as a cultural artefact. 
I have nothing but contempt for the people who use it a virtue signal, as a cultural weapon, for whom it's more about making other people hear it and see it, than speaking it for the love of it.


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## Duke of Marmalade (21 Aug 2018)

Betsy Og said:


> I drove through Wales lately and its full of bi-linugal signs, and there are many in Scotland I believe.


Wales has a far higher number of first language Gaelic speakers than Ireland.  Scotland also, though not so much as Wales.  And as for Norn Iron, the number of first language Gaelic speakers could be counted on the fingers of aon lamh.


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## Betsy Og (21 Aug 2018)

Not sure Scotland has many gaelic speakers, maybe on the Western Isles. Anyway, the DUP line is just the remnants of not wanting catholics about the place, I've no problem with the heat being turned on them. 

I'm not sure where everyone else is encountering all these cultural warriors, striking them down with their rabid Irishness. TG4 means RTE doesnt seem to do as much of the gaeilge tokenism as in the past. TG4 is fairly accessible (as much as it can be), usually subtitles etc.

I think, a bit like the GAA haters that emerge from time to time, there seems to be a dark memory of a Christian Brother or a coach who was a villain, and that colours the whole thing forevermore. There isn't much to hate about Irish, maybe it could've been taught better, maybe you'd prefer not a cent to be spent on it, but as a language it is not the enemy of anyone. Irish language, sport & music are things that make us distinctive & are worth preserving.


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## TheBigShort (21 Aug 2018)

Betsy Og said:


> There isn't much to hate about Irish, maybe it could've been taught better, maybe you'd prefer not a cent to be spent on it, but as a language it is not the enemy of anyone. Irish language, sport & music are things that make us distinctive & are worth preserving.



Couldn't agree more. 

I was of the view that this topic was to laud our English speaking culture, being top of the class and all that?
However, with repeated references to Gregory Campbell's belittling of the language and dismissive comments as to how many people speak Irish, it appears that the undertone of this topic is of the bigoted Campbell mindset. 

Perhaps his Dukeness could clarify, for what purpose is this topic?


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## Duke of Marmalade (21 Aug 2018)

TheBigShort said:


> Perhaps his Dukeness could clarify, for what purpose is this topic?


Oh, I was just shooting the breeze.  That French taxi driver seemed almost surprised that as an Irish man I would parler en Anglais.  Imagine his surprise if he were to learn that we were the most Anglais folk on planet Earth.
Yes, it has been difficult to avoid letting off steam at the "force it down your throat" brigade.
I love this bit of Campbellism from Fintan O'Toole. 
Amhran na bhFiann:

_"Sinead feigned her fall.
A toffee girl, a gay run.
Binned. This post will be deleted if not edited to remove bad language. Loo.
Hard tune the hen-egg ruined."_


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## Purple (21 Aug 2018)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> Oh, I was just shooting the breeze.


You have exposed yourself as a "not a proper Irishman".
Do you support the GAA and speak Irish? If not then you are a West-Brit.
It used to be "Going to Mass on Sunday, supporting the GAA and speaking Irish fluently, especially to people you know can't speak it very well" but going to mass is optional now, though if you are a Protestant your Irishness is still questionable. 

To be a proper urban Irish person you have to have given your children Irish names (even if you have a double barreled surname) and drive them to the Gaelscoil in your Landrover. You also need to talk about how private schools are all bad even though you can achieve the same sort of social aparthite by sending them to an all Irish school.


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## Purple (21 Aug 2018)

I played Gaelic Football in school as well, though I always preferred Hurling (and still do).
I was no good at Irish but never hated it. Indeed I like the language, I just have a problem with the attitude of some of those who speak it. 

I like the fact that Ireland is an open liberal republic which is welcoming to minorities and immigrants. I don't like the implication that those who don't speak Irish are not as Irish as those who do.


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## Delboy (21 Aug 2018)

We haven't had a 'bash the Irish language' thread in a while. Good to see the usual heads haven't lost their mojo on that front.
Lean ar aghaidh


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## Purple (22 Aug 2018)

Delboy said:


> We haven't had a 'bash the Irish language' thread in a while. Good to see the usual heads haven't lost their mojo on that front.
> Lean ar aghaidh


I don't see anyone bashing the Irish language on this thread, just a smug minority of those who speak it.


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## Betsy Og (22 Aug 2018)

Purple said:


> I don't see anyone bashing the Irish language on this thread, just a snug minority of those who speak it.



Ah now.... was there not a "curry me yoghurt" moment? And various bemoaning of cultural supremacists, but no examples of same....though I know what you mean.......ta siad i gach ait.......


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## Sophrosyne (22 Aug 2018)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> I love this bit of Campbellism from Fintan O'Toole.
> Amhran na bhFiann:
> 
> _"Sinead feigned her fall.
> ...





Purple said:


> I don't see anyone bashing the Irish language on this thread, just a snug minority of those who speak it.


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## joe sod (22 Aug 2018)

if you spend alot of time in australia or canada you will realise how close our culture is to the english and the similarities. Australians and canadians even though they still have queen as head of state are actually more different to the english than we are. We drink tea like the english ( even though more people drink coffee now but we are still the biggest tea drinkers in the world). Our accent is often mistaken for scottish, or colloqial english accent. We use words like "lorry" etc whereas canadians and aussies are more american using "truck". We drive on the left hand side of the road , same as english (although aussies do aswell), while almost everyone else drives on the right. We drink pints like the english whereas the aussies drink "skooners" and canadians drink american measures. We are much more interseted in premiership football than they are. I cant think of other things now but there are many more


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## Ceist Beag (23 Aug 2018)

Purple said:


> I don't see anyone bashing the Irish language on this thread


You don't? I think Betsy and Sophrosyne have already reminded you...


Purple said:


> just a snug minority of those who speak it.


Is this a typo - did you mean smug? If not I don't understand what you're saying but  if you're saying you only see a smug minority of those who speak it on this thread then I really think you need to point out an example Purple. I get that you have a chip on your shoulder due to bad experiences but you really need to be a bit more open minded and allow for the possibility that the vast majority of Irish speakers in this country are not smug and do not look down on those who cannot speak the language. I am a native Irish speaker but I absolutely do not think that makes me any more Irish than those who cannot speak the language and my experience is that the vast majority of those I know who speak the language would be of the same view (I do know a small few who would fit your description but in any grouping of people there will be a few like that).



joe sod said:


> if you spend alot of time in australia or canada you will realise how close our culture is to the english and the similarities. Australians and canadians even though they still have queen as head of state are actually more different to the english than we are. We drink tea like the english ( even though more people drink coffee now but we are still the biggest tea drinkers in the world). Our accent is often mistaken for scottish, or colloqial english accent. We use words like "lorry" etc whereas canadians and aussies are more american using "truck". We drive on the left hand side of the road , same as english (although aussies do aswell), while almost everyone else drives on the right. We drink pints like the english whereas the aussies drink "skooners" and canadians drink american measures. We are much more interseted in premiership football than they are. I cant think of other things now but there are many more


I'm not sure what your point is here Joe - we live next door to England so isn't it pointing out the bleeding obvious that we will be closer in culture to them than a country on the other side of the world or to suggest that similarly Canadians are a lot more like their immediate neighbour than a country across the ocean?


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## Duke of Marmalade (23 Aug 2018)

Ceist Beag said:


> You don't? I think Betsy and Sophrosyne have already reminded you...
> 
> I am a native Irish speaker but I absolutely do not think that makes me any more Irish than those who cannot speak the language and my experience is that the vast majority of those I know who speak the language would be of the same view


_Ceist_, I apologise for any offence that I may have caused you, none intended, honestly.
But it must make you sad to know that the majority of people in NI see the Irish language as a threat.  And can you blame them?  Ever see an Assembly debate? The Shinners pepper their contributions with gaelic even more so than in the Dail, even though Michelle has only a cupla focail.  Why do they do that?  Is it because a significant part of the TV audience would not understand English?  Is it that they wish to persuade those on the opposite benches to embrace the language?  Not at all.  It is clear sectarian weaponisation.  Easy for us to smugly sneer at Gregory Campbell as a bigot.  He's no worse than the Shinners.


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## Ceist Beag (23 Aug 2018)

No offence taken Duke, I'm not that easily offended!  I was merely pointing out the inaccuracy of the statement made by Purple.


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## Delboy (23 Aug 2018)

'My argument is in trouble so I'll quickly deflect to the basket case that is the North for some desperate backup' 

The 'majority' in NI as you call them, see everything as a threat that isn't painted red, white and blue. They feel insecure because deep down they know they have a link to the UK that most people over there don't care about, whilst also knowing that most people on this island would rather see the back of them.
But we're going off topic here...tally ho with the Gaeilge bashing


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## Purple (23 Aug 2018)

Ceist Beag said:


> Is this a typo - did you mean smug? If not I don't understand what you're saying but if you're saying you only see a smug minority of those who speak it on this thread then I really think you need to point out an example Purple. I get that you have a chip on your shoulder due to bad experiences but you really need to be a bit more open minded and allow for the possibility that the vast majority of Irish speakers in this country are not smug and do not look down on those who cannot speak the language. I am a native Irish speaker but I absolutely do not think that makes me any more Irish than those who cannot speak the language and my experience is that the vast majority of those I know who speak the language would be of the same view (I do know a small few who would fit your description but in any grouping of people there will be a few like that).


Yep, it was a typo.
I referred to a minority of people who speak the language being smug. I didn't aim that at those posting here.
It seems you agree with me as you say that you do know a small few who fit that description.

What's your view of the bilingual signage in Dingle (Daingean Uí Chúis) being removed and replaced with the Irish only signs?


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## Ceist Beag (23 Aug 2018)

Purple there will always be a small few in any group who are shall we say extreme in their views. I don't see that as something that needs to be brought up every time the language is being discussed though! Can we not discuss the language without referring to the minority?
I agree with you on the signage in Dingle, it's clearly aimed at tourism but again I'm not sure it's something that needs to be discussed in this thread?


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## Betsy Og (23 Aug 2018)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> But it must make you sad to know that the majority of people in NI see the Irish language as a threat.  It is clear sectarian weaponisation.



Does it make us sad?...hmmm...not as such, if they persist with the siege that's their problem, its hardly a reason to exterminate the language. They see nationalists/catholics as a threat too ..... you can see where this is going...

As for the Shinners, I'd have no problem in all assembly business being conducted in english, I agree that carry on is mischevious nonsense that does the language a disservice because as you say it is being used to divide. However that does not mean that the language should not be supported. Are nationalists meant to be happy with being 'tolerated'?, we're not long away from a nationalist majority within the 6 counties, obviously a huge majority on the island. The union is crumbling, I wouldn't be at all surprised if an Indy2 got carried in Scotland. So I think the Unionist community might be as well off checking which way the wind is blowing and adopting a more "why can't we all get along" approach - granted SF dont make it easy but history does not suggest that progressiveness and generosity will ever spontaneously emerge from the Unionist political sphere. Maybe they should try "Killing United Ireland with Kindness", or perhaps acknowledge that they would probably find it more palatable to be a smaller minority in a secular modern state (dare we say it a very England-like state  in a United Ireland), than a bare minority in a SF bearpit - of course while NI exists they'll always be in power sharing, and what a great fist they're making of that .......  Lovely warm sheds up there though it has to said...


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## Duke of Marmalade (23 Aug 2018)

Betsy Og said:


> we're not long away from a nationalist majority within the 6 counties


21% want a United Ireland according to .  So you may be correct, but clearly nationalism does not equate with United Irelandism so your conclusion that "the union is crumbling" is a _non sequitur_ (interesting I had to resort to Latin to make that point, would Irish be more efficient is this instance, Ceist?) 
But I empathise with the thrust of your post.  Luckily that poll assures us that a vote for a United Ireland is as remote as France opting to be a German province for I shudder to contemplate the chaos that would result from a 50% + 1 referendum for a UI.  
As owner of this Topic I am conscious of a danger that it will do a Bitcoin fork into Letting off Steam.


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## Purple (23 Aug 2018)

Ceist Beag said:


> I agree with you on the signage in Dingle, it's clearly aimed at tourism but again I'm not sure it's something that needs to be discussed in this thread?


How is removing the language that most tourists speak from the signs make it more tourist friendly?
It is, in my opinion, a good example of the cultural superiority complex that some Irish speakers have.
I'd say it's a minority but not a tiny one.


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## Seagull (23 Aug 2018)

I know I had the joys shortly after arriving in Ireland of driving through the gaeltacht to wherever I was going. I was happily following signs that had the name of my destination. Then I was into the gaeltacht, and the signs were as useful as a chocolate teapot, and about as annoying as toothache. The biggest issue was going from signs in English to signs in Irish. I don't think the previous ones had been bilingual. This predated smartphones, so no quick and easy google. Fortunately, the guidebook we had had the Irish name of the town, so we could figure out which signs to follow.


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## Betsy Og (23 Aug 2018)

Duke - a UI is not really central to my point (and UI is something I'm a bit ambivalent/undecided about), lets just go with SF being the biggest party & having the first Minister - which I don't think is that remote over time because whatever about wanting a UI or not, I'm not aware of any strong trend of "nationalists"/catholics voting for unionist parties. Basically the DUP are still using the old playbook but the rules of the game are about to change. 

The union crumbling is nothing to do with NI, but its obvious that Westminster is in disarray, Brexit is looking catastrophic, Scots are getting royally (cough) annoyed with power grabs and being dragging into Brexit where they will suffer - so leaving aside any Braveheart facepaint stuff, Scottish independence is veering closer than ever. Should Scotland leave then the UK is effectively done - Wales seems happy enough to trundle away as an adjunct of England, NI will look like a total outlier if its spiritual homeland of Scotland has left the building. Will London continue to foot the bill with the union gone?, I think the pressure for a UI will come from there.

Anyways, I think we both agree that unionism should reconcile itself and get on with the business of getting on, this holding back the tide is not going well - digging in on something as harmless as an Irish language act is a really poor ...well....sign.


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## TarfHead (23 Aug 2018)

Betsy Og said:


> I'd have no problem in all assembly business being conducted in english, I agree that carry on is mischevious nonsense ..



I think most people would have no problem in all Assembly business being conducted in Klingon, so long as it was being conducted.

I find it odd that those in Northern Ireland loyal to the Union deny any aspect of Irishness in their heritage, while living in places that are Anglicisation of Irish place names, e.g. Ballymena, Belfast.


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## TheBigShort (23 Aug 2018)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> Ever see an Assembly debate? The Shinners pepper their contributions with gaelic even more so than in the Dail, even though Michelle has only a cupla focail. Why do they do that? Is it because a significant part of the TV audience would not understand English? Is it that they wish to persuade those on the opposite benches to embrace the language? Not at all. It is clear sectarian weaponisation.



Ive seen Assembly debates. They are political debates between politicians and political parties about political issues in a political arena. 
One of the political issues to date is the debates surrounding the Irish language. Perhaps one of the reasons SF 'pepper' their speeches with Irish is to highlight their campaign in support of an Irish Language Act? Despite the cúpla focal.

This is nothing new, SF are I believe supportive of gay marriage. This can sometimes be witnessed through the wearing of emblems or symbols in the political arena - despite, presumably, only a few statistically of them are likely to be gay.
Why would they do that? Is it a sectarianised weapon? Because clearly the DUP are odds, at a minimum, of whether they support gay marriage rights or not. 

Neither Irish language rights or gay marriage rights is a sectarian issue. 
Only those who fear to embrace change, who fear tolerance, who, lets face it - live in the narrow prism of union jack flag-waving, God Save the Queen and Battle of Boyne think irs a threat and as such resort to infantile mockery of the language.


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## Duke of Marmalade (23 Aug 2018)

TarfHead said:


> I think most people would have no problem in all Assembly business being conducted in Klingon, so long as it was being conducted.
> 
> I find it odd that those in Northern Ireland loyal to the Union deny any aspect of Irishness in their heritage, while living in places that are Anglicisation of Irish place names, e.g. Ballymena, Belfast.


The Shankill


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## Purple (23 Aug 2018)

TheBigShort said:


> Neither Irish language rights or gay marriage rights is a sectarian issue.


You are conflating two very different issues. The Shinners and the DUP have turned the Irish Language into a political and sectarian issue. Just about everything up there is though.


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## TheBigShort (23 Aug 2018)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> The Shankill



An tSeanchill ~ _the Old Churchyard_


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## TheBigShort (23 Aug 2018)

Lord Kilclooney

Cill Chluaine ~ _Church of the Pasture_


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## TheBigShort (23 Aug 2018)

Purple said:


> You are conflating two very different issues. The Shinners and the DUP have turned the Irish Language into a political and sectarian issue. Just about everything up there is though.



Political yes, sectarian no.

The Irish language is no more a sectarian issue than gay marriage rights are. People of a various religions, including Protestants can and do speak Irish.


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## Purple (23 Aug 2018)

TheBigShort said:


> Political yes, sectarian no.
> 
> The Irish language is no more a sectarian issue than gay marriage rights are. People of a various religions, including Protestants can and do speak Irish.


The Irish language is very much a Nationalist identifier, whether it should be or not is a different issue.


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## Duke of Marmalade (23 Aug 2018)

TheBigShort said:


> Political yes, sectarian no.
> 
> The Irish language is no more a sectarian issue than gay marriage rights are. People of a various religions, including Protestants can and do speak Irish.


Soccer is not intrinsically sectarian.  In Norn Iron, Celtic vs Rangers is about as tribal/sectarian as it gets.

Arlene was on the verge of conceding some Act na Gaelige to SF but on sounding out the "grass roots" there was an overwhelming rejection of any such concession.  Consulting grass roots in NI is essentially a sectarian exercise and SF had managed to make the Irish language a symbolic struggle between the two communities of Celtic/Rangers proportions.

You seem to regard the use of Irish in the Assembly as legitimate political posturing.  The SDLP support an Act but they don't rub the other side's nose in it with what is a blatant provocation.


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## TheBigShort (23 Aug 2018)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> Arlene was on the verge of conceding some Act na Gaelige to SF





Duke of Marmalade said:


> You seem to regard the use of Irish in the Assembly as legitimate political posturing. The SDLP support an Act .



Not just the SDLP, the Greens, PBP, Alliance, quite a broad range across the political spectrum in fact. 
So any Acht is not a concession to SF but simply a recognition of the rights of citizens to protect and promote a part of their heritage which has been recognised as being under threat from existence.
People are funny like that, wanting to protect things they value that they believe may be under threat. There is next to no evidence that the Irish language or an Irish Language Act is in anyway a threat to anybody.


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## Duke of Marmalade (23 Aug 2018)

TheBigShort said:


> Not just the SDLP, the Greens, PBP, Alliance, quite a broad range across the political spectrum in fact.


And none of these use it as a provocation in the Assembly.


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## TheBigShort (23 Aug 2018)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> And none of these use it as a provocation in the Assembly.



Whats the provocation?

Go raibh maith agat - thank you. It is a civil and polite way to address anybody.


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## Duke of Marmalade (23 Aug 2018)

TheBigShort said:


> Whats the provocation?
> 
> Go raibh maith agat - thank you. It is a civil and polite way to address anybody.


Well, you are probably not as familiar with the NI psyche as me, but for the majority up there if they had their thanks expressed in those terms they would see it as a provocative political/sectarian signal.


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## TheBigShort (24 Aug 2018)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> Well, you are probably not as familiar with the NI psyche as me, but for the majority up there if they had their thanks expressed in those terms they would see it as a provocative political/sectarian signal.



I doubt it. I appreciate that there is a not insignificant number who would think that way but I would put them in the minority. 
I think on both the nationalist and unionist sides, outside of the active political sphere , the vast majority would treat such an expression with little more than a bit of bemusement. 

Either or, this is where political leadership comes to play. Arlene has tried to make some inroads on the hard psyche of loyalism, but obviously more work to be done.
She cant do it on her own so maybe these people can help?

https://www.ebm.org.uk/turas/


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## Duke of Marmalade (24 Aug 2018)

A heartening link B/S.  A few years back I was at an exhibition in Belfast's Linenhall Library commemorating my grand uncle's work.  In the room where the pictures were displayed there was taking place a Bible meeting of old dears (mostly ladies).  Very presbyterian but it was being conducted in Irish!
That Turas see it necessary to draw attention to the fact that the majority of Scotland's speakers are Protestant shows how sectarian an image has been gleaned in the context of NI.  SF with their antics in the Assembly etc.  have brought the sectarian dimension to new heights.  SF are the worst enemy of those who would like to see a pluralist embrace of our heritage.


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## TheBigShort (24 Aug 2018)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> SF with their antics in the Assembly etc. have brought the sectarian dimension to new heights. SF are the worst enemy of those who would like to see a pluralist embrace of our heritage.



We will have to agree to disagree Duke (theres a shock!) 

Seriously though, I understand the underbelly of the sectarian divide manifesting itself inside the political arena, particularly over issues of culture. But in the end, all this lasting peace, the emergence of a new generation of politicians etc - Im hopeful that more tolerant mindsets will emerge in the time ahead. 
The Irish language is part of all our heritage, not SF's. We can choose to embrace it or let it die. For those who want to embrace and protect it, that needs to be tolerated.


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## Betsy Og (24 Aug 2018)

Isn't it clear enough that wrapping culture in tricolours is an attempt to make it the preserve of one tradition. Irish obv pre-dates the concept of countries as we understand them. It is disappointing that SF has latched onto this.

The GAA (of which I am a huge fan) was born out of cultural revival/nationalism in late 1800's and part of the republican struggle into the early 1920s - so I guess that history puts it definitely in one camp. However, in normal societies history is left to one side after a respectful period - or ignored if problematic (e.g. Civil war), NI is of course an exception where 1690 is more relevant than 1990..... That said I think it was unfortunate (though inevitable) that GAA got the tag of 'the IRA at play', clubs named after "volunteers", security forces bans, army bases built on pitches, 2 undercover officers murdered in Casement Park, various targeting of GAA players and officials by loyalists. So I can see how it will take longer for the GAA to ever gain the tolerance/interest of the other tradition - which is unusual in that its so much easier to enjoy a sport than learn a language.

Anyways, it is not necessary (even if preferable) that we appreciate each others cultures, as long as we respect them enough not to block them. Soccer is a potential integrating factor, but I don't think enough nationalist kids are given the chance to play.


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## Purple (25 Aug 2018)

Betsy Og said:


> So I can see how it will take longer for the GAA to ever gain the tolerance/interest of the other tradition - which is unusual in that its so much easier to enjoy a sport than learn a language.
> 
> Anyways, it is not necessary (even if preferable) that we appreciate each others cultures, as long as we respect them enough not to block them. Soccer is a potential integrating factor, but I don't think enough nationalist kids are given the chance to play.



I always thought that Rugby had more of a potential. I'm thinking of the cultural differences between those who play it in Munster and Ulster more than Ulster and Leinster. In Leinster it was the preserve of private schools and while that is changing they still dominate it here.


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## Betsy Og (25 Aug 2018)

Both rugby and soccer would be more of the unionist tradition, neither gaining major nationalist interest. Rugby in Ulster would be more middle/upper class, maybe not to the same extent as South Dublin, but probably moreso than Munster (even in Munster, for all the blather, rugby is not the working mans game, certainly not in Cork and in Limerick soccer is bigger than rugby & Limerick also has the posh rugby element even if not as dominant as elsewhere).

NI soccer used to be overtly sectarian, small wonder many nationalists picked ROI. The sectarianism is being tackled/dampened and here's hoping for the future. Why soccer could be a great hope as an integrator is a) everyone follows it and plays it (schoolyard setting), b) easy game to play, c) no major equipment or technical training needed to play it safely and crucially d) its getting to where it's needed at the working class/ordinary folk level. The main challenge would be not re-creating Celtic v Rangers at every local level. At kids level you might deal with it by 'pick n mix' games but obv there would need to be the will on both sides and it would effectively mean a series of friendlies instead of a league. Mixed Education and soccer could get neighbours mingling but TINI (this is NI).....


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## TheBigShort (25 Aug 2018)

In order to break down barriers some sweetners need to be delivered. 
Irish soccer needs serious investment and a total overhaul. Clubs are surviving hand to mouth, stadiums are basic, attendances are poor. 

I think Niall Quinn was fishing around for some investors a few years back but to no avail. 

A new Irish (whole of)  League formatted with two Divisions as per MLS in US, new comfortable modern 4- 8,000 capacity stadia, more TV coverage, better wages for players attracting higher quality, fanfare, etc. 

The money is out there, somewhere, it justs needs convincing that there is a sustainable product here.


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## Purple (29 Aug 2018)

Betsy Og said:


> Both rugby and soccer would be more of the unionist tradition, neither gaining major nationalist interest. Rugby in Ulster would be more middle/upper class, maybe not to the same extent as South Dublin, but probably moreso than Munster (even in Munster, for all the blather, rugby is not the working mans game, certainly not in Cork and in Limerick soccer is bigger than rugby & Limerick also has the posh rugby element even if not as dominant as elsewhere).


ALl true but the game in Leinster is far more accessible to everyone than it was 10-20 years ago. I went to a GAA school and never player rugby but I, like many of my friends who also never played rugby, have a keen interest in it (in my case because of Munster supporting friends bringing me to matches in the bad old days when Munster hammered Leinster regularly). Now most of the Leinster players are not from the D4 stereotypical background and the game is better for it (it also helps when they end up in the Munster and Ulster squad).  

I like the fact that the Ulster players stand respectfully when our National Anthem is played. I also like the fact that during the Troubles when nobody else would play here the English team always came.


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## cremeegg (29 Aug 2018)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> Wales has a far higher number of first language Gaelic speakers



There are no first language Gaelic speakers in Wales except perhaps some Immigrants or holiday makers.


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## Purple (30 Aug 2018)

cremeegg said:


> There are no first language Gaelic speakers in Wales except perhaps some Immigrants or holiday makers.


I know Welsh people who say that Welsh is a Gaelic language. Irish and Welsh are both Celtic languages, along with Scottish, Cornish and Breton.


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## cremeegg (30 Aug 2018)

Purple said:


> I know Welsh people who say that Welsh is a Gaelic language.



Thats just pretension on their part. Welsh, Cornish and Breton are Celtic languages but not Gaelic languages.


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