# Rude presenter on The cafe on RTE "childrens programme" "eurospa"



## dodo (11 Oct 2007)

I was watching with my children the cafe on rte 2,The presenter who along with his guest Joe something from a daytime show where both on charity eurostar,But I could not believe hearing for a 2nd time the presenter say eurospa I thought this was uncalled for and really in bad taste and should not be spoken on telly or any where else for that matter just to get a cheap laugh.


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## C2H5OH (11 Oct 2007)

*Re: Rude presenter on The cafe on RTE*

I also thought it was unacceptable. I contacted:
complaints@rte.ie


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## rmelly (12 Oct 2007)

*Re: Rude presenter on The cafe on RTE*



C2H5OH said:


> I also thought it was unacceptable. I contacted:
> complaints@rte.ie


 
maybe if we complained about eurostar in the first place this situation would never have occurred.


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## Jock04 (12 Oct 2007)

*Re: Rude presenter on The cafe on RTE*



rmelly said:


> maybe if we complained about *eurostar *in the first place this situation would never have occurred.


 

By having people banned from the London to Paris trains?


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## rmelly (12 Oct 2007)

*Re: Rude presenter on The cafe on RTE*



Jock04 said:


> By having people banned from the London to Paris trains?


 
my sentiments exactly.


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## ClubMan (12 Oct 2007)

*Re: Rude presenter on The cafe on RTE*

What's wrong with eurospa?  Looks nice to me.


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## Purple (12 Oct 2007)

*Re: Rude presenter on The cafe on RTE*



ClubMan said:


> What's wrong with eurospa?  Looks nice to me.


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## Jock04 (12 Oct 2007)

*Re: Rude presenter on The cafe on RTE*



ClubMan said:


> What's wrong with eurospa?  Looks nice to me.


 

I was surprised Clubman limited himself to that single retort.

There was ammo aplenty in that OP!


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## dodo (12 Oct 2007)

*Re: Rude presenter on The cafe on RTE*

I thought this was an issue that people would not make fun of on AAM but I suppose I was wrong, after all I did post in letting of steam and not shooting the breeze With so many smart comments on here then  I should not have been surprised with the comments made on the cafe.


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## Purple (12 Oct 2007)

*Re: Rude presenter on The cafe on RTE*

dodo, I agree that the comments were in very bad taste, particularly as they were made on a children’s programme.


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## RainyDay (14 Oct 2007)

This is indeed a sign of poor judgement on behalf of their presenter. I very much doubt if he would make a 'eurofag' or 'euronigger' joke, but for some reason it is considered acceptable to use derogatory language about people with disabilities.

However, this probably isn't the biggest problem about representation of people with disabilites in the media. When was the last time you saw a deaf person, or a blind person or a wheelchair user in a mainstream RTE drama or comedy? Better still, when was the last time you saw a disabled person on RTE where the topic was not about their disability? Can you recall ever seeing a disabled person getting laid or getting rich or getting fired or getting snappy with their partner, i.e. being seen on an equal basis to those around them? Wouldn't that make a pleasant change from the tragic/heroic storylines that seem to be the only chances a disabled person gets to appear on RTE?


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## Purple (14 Oct 2007)

RainyDay said:


> when was the last time you saw a disabled person on RTE where the topic was not about their disability?


 Excellent point, excellent post.


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## ClubMan (14 Oct 2007)

RainyDay said:


> when was the last time you saw a disabled person on RTE where the topic was not about their disability?


Penny Pocket on _BBC's Balamory _shown on _Den Tots _on _RTE2 _every weekday morning.


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## RainyDay (14 Oct 2007)

ClubMan said:


> Penny Pocket on _BBC's Balamory _shown on _Den Tots _on _RTE2 _every weekday morning.


Indeed - I was actually going to mention Balamory. Carrie Weaver on ER was another positive example, though they did fall into the trap of going for the 'miracle cure operation' story in one of the later series.

Is it too much to hope for an Irish example or two?


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## MrMan (15 Oct 2007)

> Can you recall ever seeing a disabled person getting laid or getting rich or getting fired or getting snappy with their partner, i.e. being seen on an equal basis to those around them? Wouldn't that make a pleasant change from the tragic/heroic storylines that seem to be the only chances a disabled person gets to appear on RTE?



They are not alone in stereotypes, cops are divorced with drink problems, career women have relationship issues i.e. usually single in 30's, bussinessmen are sleazy, fat people are funny, lead characters are 'beautiful people'. TV and movies are formulaic, we see something that isn't entirely based on real life it just looks like a nicer example of it. TV is used primarily as a removal from the drab and dull and I don't see that changing in the short term. People with disabilities do not fit with the tv execs profile of must see tv, there used to be/still is 'the token black guy', which may progress to the token 'disabled guy' but I don't see it happening tbh


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## Northerngirl (15 Oct 2007)

Dodo, I agree. The 'smart comments' posted are a reflection of the ignorance of TV and Radio broadcasters who dont seem aware of who they may be offending or why. Ive lost count of the times you hear people described as a 'mentalist' or 'nutter', which are offensive to people who suffer with mental illness, which statistically is 1 in 4 people.  I wouldnt wish to see politically correctness go too far, however a little thought and respect to the wording and content would help.


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## Trafford (15 Oct 2007)

Emmerdale had a character in a wheelchair for a number of years, and the actor himself was not disabled. It was a brave and challenging thing for the producers to do. He was portrayed as a successful businessman, who had no problem attracting women, albeit for his cash. He was also a father. Very little if anything about his character had to do with his disability.


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## Caveat (15 Oct 2007)

What about the likes of _Phoenix Nights_ ?

AFAIK, the fact that the main character is wheelchair bound is basically incidental and has never in itself been exploited for comedy value.


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## MugsGame (15 Oct 2007)

> the main character is wheelchair bound is basically incidental and has never in itself been exploited for comedy



That's because he's not a stand-up comedian.


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## ClubMan (15 Oct 2007)

There's also a blind character in the _CBeebies _programme _Me Too! _and not only is his condition (hopefully I won't be chastised by the _PC _police for using that word? ) seemingly not really referred to but I think he appears in the programme as somebody whose sight is fine. But I could be wrong...

I still can't think of an obvious _Irish/RTE _example though as mentioned by _RainyDay_ above.


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## Sunny (15 Oct 2007)

ClubMan said:


> I still can't think of an obvious _Irish/RTE _example though as mentioned by _RainyDay_ above.


 
Could be a sad reflection on the amount of homemade drama on our screens as much as anything. To be fair to RTE, they have done some very good programmes such as the one on St. Itas hospital in Portrane but I agree with the point that there is a lack of people with disabilities in mainstream programmes.


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## ClubMan (15 Oct 2007)

Sunny said:


> there is a lack of people with disabilities in mainstream programmes.


On the other hand perhaps there are people with disabilities that we don't know about because they are not obvious (e.g. like blindness, paraplegism etc.). I guess it also depends on how widely you define "disability" - e.g. does it include, say, psychiatric/mental illness such as depression or bipolar disorder, ADD/ADHD/Asperger's Syndrome, illiteracy/innumeracy, dyslexia etc.?


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## sydthebeat (15 Oct 2007)

Clubman....

i hope im not picking you up wrong, but that character is not presented as though his sight is fine, but rather the fact that his blindness is not a disability to him.... the other characters dont go 'can i help you with that' or ' can i get it for you' etc.. because they are trying to show that he is not 'disabled'.... (which is a term becoming very un-pc in its own right....)


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## Caveat (15 Oct 2007)

sydthebeat said:


> 'disabled'.... (which is a term becoming very un-pc in its own right....)


 
As a matter of interest, what is the currently acceptable term?


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## ClubMan (15 Oct 2007)

sydthebeat said:


> i hope im not picking you up wrong, but that character is not presented as though his sight is fine, but rather the fact that his blindness is not a disability to him.... the other characters dont go 'can i help you with that' or ' can i get it for you' etc..


The few times I saw the programme I thought that the character was able to see or supposed to be able to see since he would wander into scenes without the aid of a cane etc. I just thought it was a bit odd and assumed that he was a blind person playing a sighted person or something.



sydthebeat said:


> 'disabled'.... (which is a term becoming very un-pc in its own right....)


Somebody better tell the various statutory and non-statutory  with "disabled/disability" in their names so!


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## Sn@kebite (15 Oct 2007)

*Re: Rude presenter on The cafe on RTE*



dodo said:


> I thought this was an issue that people would not make fun of on AAM but I suppose I was wrong, after all I did post in letting of steam and not shooting the breeze With so many smart comments on here then  I should not have been surprised with the comments made on the cafe.


Maybe the people with smart comments don't have kid so the have nothing to compare it (rudeness on tv) to. Whereas you would be afraid of your kid using that word. But on the plus side, i don't even think the kids watching that show would understand that "eurospa" is a joke of spastic persons, so i don't think you'd need to worry there imo.


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## ClubMan (15 Oct 2007)

*Re: Rude presenter on The cafe on RTE*



Sn@kebite said:


> Maybe the people with smart comments don't have kid so the have nothing to compare it (rudeness on tv) to. Whereas you would be afraid of your kid using that word. But on the plus side, i don't even think the kids watching that show would understand that "eurospa" is a joke of spastic persons, so i don't think you'd need to worry there imo.


On a related note...


> Ian Robin Dury was born at his parents' home at 43 Weald Rise, Harrow Weald, Harrow (although, probably because he felt that his true birthplace was not in keeping with his "cockney wide boy" public persona, he often claimed that he was born in Upminster, Havering). He lived with the effects of polio, which he contracted at the age of seven — very likely, he believed, from a swimming pool at Southend on Sea during the 1949 Polio Epidemic. His 1981 song _Spasticus Autisticus_, intended to mark the International Year of Disabled Persons, was banned by the BBC despite having been written by a disabled person. The lyrics were uncompromising:
> 
> So place your hard-earned peanuts in my tin
> And thank the Creator you're not in the state I'm in
> ...


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## RainyDay (15 Oct 2007)

Caveat said:


> As a matter of interest, what is the currently acceptable term?



There are different views on this. Some use the term 'people with disabilities' in order to put the person first. Some use the term 'disabled people' with the intention of showing that it is society which is disabling the person, but personally I think the latter approach is a bit too subtle for most.


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## C2H5OH (15 Oct 2007)

The original post was about a tv presenter on The Café (what is essentially a young persons programme) using a derogatory term " You're a Spa" to describe the programme "You're A Star". I was shocked when I heard him say it the first time and it was repeated twice later in the programme.
On this thread, we then had a few posters having a big grin at the spelling errors in the original post, even though the intent of the first post was quite clear.
Perhaps some posters should read posting guideline 19:
“Some threads stray off topic to such an extent that the discussion bears no relation to the original question. If you want to introduce a new question, start a new topic. Off-topic banter which distracts from the original question will be deleted”
The use of the word Spa in the context in which it was used is totally unacceptable for any television presenter and he should apologise.
The word Spa was a derogatory term in the UK in the 80’s and became much more widely used by children following a television appearance on Blue Peter in 1981 by Joey Deacon who had cerebral palsy. Children began to use the term Spa(z) and Joey as terms of ridicule.
In 1994 the Spastics Society (UK) changed its name to SCOPE and many believe this was due to the use of Spa as a derogatory term.
More recently Tiger Woods apologised for his use of the word “Spaz” when he used it to describe a bad round of golf.
Also, Nintendo recalled a game in July of this year (Mario Party 8) because it contained the phrase ”Turn the train spastic!”
For anyone who would like to read what are considered acceptable terms by disabled people‘s organisations:
http://www.disabilitynow.org.uk/campaigns/hackedoff/hackedoffguide.pdf


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## Sn@kebite (15 Oct 2007)

C2H5OH said:


> For anyone who would like to read what are considered acceptable terms by disabled people‘s organisations:
> http://www.disabilitynow.org.uk/campaigns/hackedoff/hackedoffguide.pdf


How would "The Deaf", "Healthy", "The Blind" "Handicapped" or  "An Invalid" offend someone?!
Some of those "unacceptable" references sound like political correctness gone mad, soon we'll be afraid to speak around these people.


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## ClubMan (15 Oct 2007)

Sn@kebite said:


> these people.


Actually I suspect that terms like that are probably more offensive - i.e. lumping all disabled/blind/deaf/etc. people into one group and assuming that they are all of the same opinion on a particular matter such as this!


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## Sn@kebite (15 Oct 2007)

ClubMan said:


> Actually I suspect that terms like that are probably more offensive - i.e. lumping all disabled/blind/deaf/etc. people into one group and assuming that they are all of the same opinion on a particular matter such as this!


That's a  good point actually, although i didn't mean it like that, but if someone took offense to me saying that i would totally understand. But if, for example, a deaf person took offense to me saying he/she is deaf I would want to scream. 
But come to think of it, if i was a "sign language user" i would see it diferently as it would be on my conscience.


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## C2H5OH (15 Oct 2007)

Sn@kebite said:


> How would "The Deaf", "Healthy", "The Blind" "Handicapped" or "An Invalid" offend someone?!


Sn@kebite,  I'm no expert in the subject. I merely added the link to show what is the thinking of organisations representing disabled people.
I would suggest that the thinking is that they are people first, rather that just being categorised based on a disability.


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## Sn@kebite (15 Oct 2007)

C2H5OH said:


> Sn@kebite,  I'm no expert in the subject. I merely added the link to show what is the thinking of organisations representing disabled people.
> I would suggest that the thinking is that they are people first, rather that just being categorised based on a disability.


Yes, sorry i wasn't directing that particular post of mine toward you. I was just asking rhetorically.


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## RainyDay (16 Oct 2007)

Sn@kebite said:


> But if, for example, a deaf person took offense to me saying he/she is deaf I would want to scream.



There is a huge difference between saying that a person is deaf (or say, black) and referring to a group as the deaf (or say, the blacks).


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## ClubMan (17 Oct 2007)

I initially thought that it was a joke but right now on _BBC1 _they're showing a programme about the Miss Deaf World beauty pageant.


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## Caveat (17 Oct 2007)

It's maybe not as unusual as it sounds.

Not wanting to generalise about disability groups, but I believe that deaf people in particular can have quite a 'closed' community and often prefer not to participate in the wider able bodied world even when they are able to.  As a consequence, the deaf community has a plethora of alternative events/groups etc.


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## ClubMan (17 Oct 2007)

Caveat said:


> but I believe that deaf people in particular can have quite a 'closed' community and often prefer not to participate in the wider able bodied world


What is the "able bodied world" and how are deaf people not "able bodied"?   All of the bodies on the _Miss Deaf World _programme looked pretty able to me!


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## Johnny Boy (17 Oct 2007)

I would not mind being a judge on Miss Blind world pagent you would have to feel everyone on show
(I love daydreaming)


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## ClubMan (17 Oct 2007)

Johnny Boy said:


> I would not mind being a judge on Miss Blind world pagent you would have to feel everyone on show
> (I love daydreaming)


Yeah - I can read women like a book. I use _Braille_.


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## Caveat (17 Oct 2007)

ClubMan said:


> What is the "able bodied world" and how are deaf people not "able bodied"?  All of the bodies on the _Miss Deaf World _programme looked pretty able to me!


 
Fair enough.

Well "able bodied" is just the often used term (I think) for those without disabilities in general.  Bad choice of words in this particular example I suppose.  I think deaf people use "the hearing world".


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## Sn@kebite (17 Oct 2007)

Caveat said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> Well "able bodied" is just the often used term (I think) for those without disabilities in general.  Bad choice of words in this particular example I suppose.  I think deaf people use "the hearing world".


I think everybody has a disability in some sort of way, if not, we'd not be human.
And I have never heard "the hearing world"? Anyway, I think even deaf people can hear the world just in a different way, like a blind person can see the world very much as I was told by a blind man once. He said he sees with his ears, and guide stick, and apparently if you lose one of your senses, the quality of you other 4 rise considerably because your brain is more active in those 4 parts than it was with the 5 parts. Odd, I know! But fascinating


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## Caveat (17 Oct 2007)

Sn@kebite said:


> And I have never heard "the hearing world"?


 
I know a few deaf people - I'm pretty sure it's the term they use.


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## ClubMan (17 Oct 2007)

Caveat said:


> I know a few deaf people - I'm pretty sure it's the term they use.


Do they find the term "the deaf world" offensive or OK?


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## ClubMan (17 Oct 2007)

Sn@kebite said:


> apparently if you lose one of your senses, the quality of you other 4 rise considerably because your brain is more active in those 4 parts than it was with the 5 parts. Odd, I know! But fascinating


I thought that this was an urban myth - [broken link removed] would suggest that there's at least some doubt about it anyway.


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## RainyDay (17 Oct 2007)

Caveat said:


> but I believe that deaf people in particular can have quite a 'closed' community and often prefer not to participate in the wider able bodied world even when they are able to.  As a consequence, the deaf community has a plethora of alternative events/groups etc.



Some deaf people consider their condition to be more of a culture than a medical condition. Some people oppose medical treatments for hearing loss such as cochlear implants on the grounds that they are trying to 'fix' a culture. They would see it as equivalent to trying to whiten the skin of an African or Asian person.


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## Caveat (17 Oct 2007)

ClubMan said:


> Do they find the term "the deaf world" offensive or OK?


 
I've never heard it & the term hasn't come to mind so I've never asked them - will do so though.  RainyDay is correct about the culture point - in fact "deaf culture" itself is a term also in common use in the deaf community.


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## dodo (17 Oct 2007)

*Re: Rude presenter on The cafe on RTE*

My 6 1/2 year did ask me what the word spa meant,and this is why I mentioned it. 
s up for a laught but anyone who mocks people less 


Sn@kebite said:


> Maybe the people with smart comments don't have kid so the have nothing to compare it (rudeness on tv) to. Whereas you would be afraid of your kid using that word. But on the plus side, i don't even think the kids watching that show would understand that "eurospa" is a joke of spastic persons, so i don't think you'd need to worry there imo.


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## ClubMan (17 Oct 2007)

*Re: Rude presenter on The cafe on RTE*



dodo said:


> s up for a laught but anyone who mocks people less


We should value comments like this equally with those that actually make sense.


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## dodo (18 Oct 2007)

*Re: Rude presenter on The cafe on RTE*



ClubMan said:


> We should value comments like this equally with those that actually make sense.


Sorry dont know what happened there, just wanted to say I have o real time for people who mock people who appear to be less unfortunate than others.RTE did say sorry for the comment made so I hope lesson is learned from that presenter.


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## Sn@kebite (19 Oct 2007)

*Re: Rude presenter on The cafe on RTE*



dodo said:


> Sorry dont know what happened there, just wanted to say I have o real time for people who mock people who appear to be less unforunate than others


Fortunate?


			
				dodo said:
			
		

> RTE did say sorry for the comment made so I hope lesson is learned from that presenter.


Presenter? - That's bad I didn't realise it was a presenter, It would've been bad enough if 'twas was a guest. (Because their guests are never usually of the highest IQ)


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## ClubMan (19 Oct 2007)

*Re: Rude presenter on The cafe on RTE*



dodo said:


> Sorry dont know what happened there, just wanted to say I have o real time for people who mock people who appear to be less unfortunate than others.


Many people with certain conditions might not consider themselves less fortunate than others!


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## MrMan (19 Oct 2007)

> (Because their guests are never usually of the highest IQ)



Now we are mocking the intellectually afflicted. 

Why do people always feel the need to tip toe around others with obvious disablities such as being deaf, blind, physically handicapped etc. They don't live in the deaf world they live in the real world, like us all. Granted people with disablities sometimes make us feel uncomfortable to be around because we don't know how to interact or go into PC overload, but surely everyone needs to relax a little. The emphasis of the word 'spa' on a kids show is improper because it is a swear word of sorts and kids shows should not promote bad language. The use of the word between adults is harmless enough in my opinion.


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## Caveat (19 Oct 2007)

MrMan said:


> The use of the word between adults is harmless enough in my opinion.


 
The word 'spa'? Do you really think this?  I'm genuinely shocked.


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## MrMan (19 Oct 2007)

> The word 'spa'? Do you really think this? I'm genuinely shocked.



I possibly keep bad company, but spa, nutter, nut-job, loon, mentalist, have all been heard and I would never look shocked or remonstrate with someone for saying them. Amadán, luder, flute were used in the past and nobody would bat an eye so why should we now. These words are usually used in jest and I think they should be taken as light hearted and are far and away less offensive than most of the strong swear words constantly in circulation today.


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## Sn@kebite (19 Oct 2007)

Is the _OP_ still going to watch "The Cafe" in future?


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## Sn@kebite (19 Oct 2007)

MrMan said:


> These words are usually used in jest and I think they should be taken as light hearted and are far and away less offensive than most of the strong swear words constantly in circulation today.


I agree. I think people have a tendency to over-react at such words. (If it's deliberately meant to offend, then you're right to be disgusted) The thing is, the OP should have turned off the tv (station) the first time they heard it used. If you hear it and leave it on I guess you aren't really that upset in the first place?


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## ClubMan (19 Oct 2007)

Sn@kebite said:


> I agree. I think people have a tendency to over-react at such words. (If it's deliberately meant to offend, then you're right to be disgusted) The thing is, the OP should have turned off the tv (station) the first time they heard it used. If you hear it and leave it on I guess you aren't really that upset in the first place?


Yes - but having heard it and been offended by it surely they are perfectly entitled to complain (ideally to _RTE _and/or the _BCI _(?) if they see fit)? It would be different if it was what somebody might consider "offensive" images or language preceded by an advisory warning etc.


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## RainyDay (19 Oct 2007)

MrMan said:


> I possibly keep bad company, but spa, nutter, nut-job, loon, mentalist, have all been heard and I would never look shocked or remonstrate with someone for saying them. Amadán, luder, flute were used in the past and nobody would bat an eye so why should we now. These words are usually used in jest and I think they should be taken as light hearted and are far and away less offensive than most of the strong swear words constantly in circulation today.



Do you think that this approach might contribute to the stigmatisation of mental health issues? And possibly in some way towards our high suicide rates?


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## Sn@kebite (19 Oct 2007)

RainyDay said:


> Do you think that this approach might contribute to the stigmatisation of mental health issues? And possibly in some way towards our high suicide rates?


Even though that's a very good point, It's not entirely up to the peoplle surrounding persons with mental health probelms/depression to be mature. Would you not say that if you take offense to "words" you are being, even slightly childish? I was always taught that when/if people make fun of you you should just ignore them, so if the young men were psychologically stronger, the suicide rates would not be so high.
I realise that it would be an irrational decision to harm one's self but in the end you just need to be strong and feel sorry for the insecurity of the person who makes fun of others in order to raise their own self-esteem.


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## speirbhean (19 Oct 2007)

"Why do people always feel the need to tip toe around others with obvious disablities such as being deaf, blind, physically handicapped etc. They don't live in the deaf world they live in the real world, like us all. Granted people with disablities sometimes make us feel uncomfortable to be around because we don't know how to interact or go into PC overload, but surely everyone needs to relax a little. The emphasis of the word 'spa' on a kids show is improper because it is a swear word of sorts and kids shows should not promote bad language. The use of the word between adults is harmless enough in my opinion."
(sorry don't know how to do the blue thing but had to respond to this post...)


The use of the word 'spa' is to my mind totally inappropriate in any circumstance because of the negative connotations. You wouldn't use abusive racist or sexist language, I hope, using disabled 'slang' in a negative context is just as bad. Maybe you feel uncomfortable around disabled people because you don't know any? If you did you'd know that the easiest way to describe their circumstances (if you have to at all) is to say a person with; ie a person with a disability, a person with special needs, a person with Downs Syndrome etc etc. By doing this you are explaining what disability the person has, without implying that the disability is the most significant thing about them. A person with Downs Syndrome is also a brother, a son, a friend, a student or whatever. And please don't label me 'PC' for writing this post - the phrase PC has been devalued and abused to the extent that it's almost meaningless, IMHO.


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## RainyDay (19 Oct 2007)

So how are we going to help young people to 'be stronger'. I don't think there are simple solutions here - you can't just tell someone with depression to 'pull yourself together'.

I'm no angel, mind you - particularly when cycling through Dublin - I've probably accused many drivers of being blind/deaf/thick etc.


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## Sn@kebite (19 Oct 2007)

speirbhean said:
			
		

> (sorry don't know how to do the blue thing but had to respond to this post...)


Click the  button on the lower left, on the post you want to quote.


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## Sn@kebite (19 Oct 2007)

RainyDay said:


> So how are we going to help young people to 'be stronger'. I don't think there are simple solutions here - you can't just tell someone with depression to 'pull yourself together'.



All i'm saying is, if my daughter/son came to me crying that they were called fat or were mocked for a disability I would Yes, counter act the criticism(s) by reassurance that (s)he is not fat and is beautiful. But what I mean is most parents (imo) would leave it at that and go on with the day but that won't solve anything. So I think we should educate ppl why they are mocked that's all. Especially children because a child does not realise why (s)he is being picked on, they don't realise that the bully is insecure about something taking part in his/her life. You get me? Maybe it would be difficult to explain this to a child but a grown up should understand.

I'm not saying we should just say "Pull together!", "Grow Up!", or "Be A Man!" that would be ignorant i think. But tell the person why they have no need to be afraid because they are being mocked by a coward who is afraid to accept the bad things in his/her life. That's all.

I'm basing this all on the assumption that mental health problems are not hereditary and is a result of surroundings?


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## C2H5OH (19 Oct 2007)

MrMan said:


> The use of the word between adults is harmless enough in my opinion.


Would you consider it acceptable to use the word Spa in the company of an adult with Cerebral palsy?

 There was an article in yesterdays Evening Herald page 20 under the headline: RTE apologises for offensive teen show hosts.
The producer of the show has also taken the stream of the show off the RTE website.


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## dodo (19 Oct 2007)

*Re: Rude presenter on The cafe on RTE*

Point taken but I think you get what I am saying .
	Is the _OP_ still going to watch "The Cafe" in future?We are only watching because the cafe team where at my childs school and she might be on the telly, other than that we dont watch it,


ClubMan said:


> Many people with certain conditions might not consider themselves less fortunate than others!


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## ClubMan (19 Oct 2007)

*Re: Rude presenter on The cafe on RTE*



dodo said:


> Point taken but I think you get what I am saying .
> Is the _OP_ still going to watch "The Cafe" in future?We are only watching because the cafe team where at my childs school and she might be on the telly, other than that we dont watch it,


Sorry - you're not making sense. Again.


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## Sn@kebite (19 Oct 2007)

*Re: Rude presenter on The cafe on RTE*



ClubMan said:


> Sorry - you're not making sense. Again.


Is the OP still going to watch "The Cafe" in future? << That was my question on one of my prior posts but the user cannot multiquote my message as well as your one,(lack of knowledge i guess) So dodo just copied my question and put his/her answer next to it. You see?


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## Purple (20 Oct 2007)

Sn@kebite said:


> I'm basing this all on the assumption that mental health problems are not hereditary and is a result of surroundings?



Then you have formulated your opinions on a false premise. Start again and actually educate yourself about the issue or else don't offer such strong opinions.
The problem with calling a disabled person a spa is that just like any other term aimed at a section of society of group of people (be they homosexual, a different race or a different religion); we loose our ability to empathise with them on a human level and so it is easier to hate or ridicule them.


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## dodo (20 Oct 2007)

*Re: Rude presenter on The cafe on RTE*

Correct, I am not really good when it comes to Technology or spelling but that does not make me stupid as hinted  on some previous post's, I wish I could have stayed on longer in school but such is life.


Sn@kebite said:


> Is the OP still going to watch "The Cafe" in future? << That was my question on one of my prior posts but the user cannot multiquote my message as well as your one,(lack of knowledge i guess) So dodo just copied my question and put his/her answer next to it. You see?


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## ClubMan (20 Oct 2007)

*Re: Rude presenter on The cafe on RTE*



dodo said:


> Correct, I am not really good when it comes to Technology or spelling but that does not make me stupid as hinted  on some previous post's, I wish I could have stayed on longer in school but such is life.


Who hinted that you were stupid?


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## Sn@kebite (20 Oct 2007)

*Re: Rude presenter on The cafe on RTE*



Purple said:


> Then you have formulated your opinions on a false premise. Start again and actually educate yourself about the issue or else don't offer such strong opinions.


Apologies!. A bit of research and it proves i am incorrect, although according to the _webMD_ surroundings are a big factor. So I over looked many other cause of mental illness.


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## Sn@kebite (20 Oct 2007)

*Re: Rude presenter on The cafe on RTE*



HelloJed said:


> Good point dodo, there is a lack of tolerance about spelling mistakes on this forum. I've been guilty in the past of assuming that the poster doesn't care enough or is unintelligent, but the attitude could put off dyslexic, non-English speakers and early school leavers from getting involved in the forum. Consider me a changed woman!


Yes - and the best way to improve spelling is to break the word up into syllables.


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## C2H5OH (21 Oct 2007)

Surely a little more tolerance of minor spelling mistakes is called for, particularly when someone admits they have a problem with spelling.
The following highlights the ability of the brain to decipher even badly spelt words.
http://www.brainconnection.com/content/198_1
Aoccdrnig to rseerach at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a total mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Amzanig huh? 
PS: Hwo'd yuo lkie to run tihs by yuor sepll ckehcer?


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## Purple (21 Oct 2007)

C2H5OH said:


> PS: Hwo'd yuo lkie to run tihs by yuor sepll ckehcer?


If you can't spell why not write your post in Microsoft Word, use the spell checker and cut and paste after that?


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## Purple (21 Oct 2007)

RainyDay said:


> One-quarter of Irish adults have very low literacy skills. At a guess, there are the people who are at most need of the kind of advice that is generally available on AAM. I don't think it is appropriate for us to impose any kind of literacy bar on posters.


 Good point, I agree. I can't spell so I use spell check. I suggested it for those who are self-conscious about spelling.


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## Caveat (21 Oct 2007)

It's not even necessary to compose in _Word_ to spell check - in the upper right hand corner of your 'composing box' (ABC with a 'tick' mark) you will find a spell check tool.


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## RainyDay (21 Oct 2007)

Purple said:


> Good point, I agree. I can't spell so I use spell check. I suggested it for those who are self-conscious about spelling.


Many of those with low literacy would also have low ICT skills.


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## Purple (21 Oct 2007)

RainyDay said:


> Many of those with low literacy would also have low ICT skills.



True. Your basic point is well made.


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## slamdunkin (21 Oct 2007)

Purple said:


> If you can't spell why not write your post in Microsoft Word, use the spell checker and cut and paste after that?


 
People dat pull others people up because of they're speeling on internet forums really bug me - its an informal forum not leaving cert English - get over it - very immature attitude!


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## MrMan (22 Oct 2007)

> Do you think that this approach might contribute to the stigmatisation of mental health issues? And possibly in some way towards our high suicide rates?



Like alot of posters you seem to think that the word 'spa' is aimed at someone with a disability, my point was that it is generally pointed at someone without any obvious disability. Anyone that I have known that has killed themselves have suffered from a myriad of problems with depression one of them. Unfortunately their mental health issues ran a little deeper than suffering from name callling.



> Maybe you feel uncomfortable around disabled people because you don't know any? If you did you'd know that the easiest way to describe their circumstances (if you have to at all)



This is an often used weak debate, if you disagree you haven't experienced it etc. As it turns out I do know disabled people so what? As already stated spa is generally aimed at those without disabliity. It is totally a harmless word that is often used without thinking and never to cause offence. 



> Would you consider it acceptable to use the word Spa in the company of an adult with Cerebral palsy?



Yes of course I would isn't that what I've been saying all along!


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## Caveat (22 Oct 2007)

MrMan said:


> Like alot of posters you seem to think that the word 'spa' is aimed at someone with a disability, my point was that it is generally pointed at someone without any obvious disability.


 
I don't think that matters. The point is that the word was devised originally to cause offence - that was it's purpose. It is still used to cause offence - even if in your case it is in jest.

Basically, in your example, what you are saying is that the person is "like a spa". 

In the same vein, would you then argue that "nigger" is not offensive if directed at a white person who happened to conform to some perceived negative black stereotype?


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## ClubMan (22 Oct 2007)

Caveat said:


> In the same vein, you would then argue that "nigger" is not offensive if directed at a white person who happened to conform to some perceived negative black stereotype?


Why is "nigger" often deemed acceptable when it's directed by one black person towards another?


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## Caveat (22 Oct 2007)

ClubMan said:


> Why is "nigger" often deemed acceptable when it's directed by one black person towards another?


 
I know. "Queer" often works the same way.  I think it's almost a socio political statement in these instances.  The group in question who has been 'victim' of the term are usurping the word or words and robbing them of their power I guess.  It's all very confusing at times.


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## ubiquitous (22 Oct 2007)

Caveat said:


> I don't think that matters.  The point is that the word was devised originally to cause offence - that was it's purpose.



  Some years ago, Ronan Collins or one of the other RTE Radio 1 "easy listening" dj's played an old song called "Jeepers Creepers". Someone complained at the time that the song was offensive because the term Jeepers Creepers had originally been used to poke fun at This post will be deleted if not edited immediately Christ


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## MrMan (22 Oct 2007)

TBH 'spa' isn't often used anymore because it is considered childish and not a strong swear word. Nigger was an offensive word that has been commercialised by the black community in the entertainment industry and become semi-acceptable (just not by whites, as we're known). ******* was used to cause offence but I would argue that it doesn't now at least not in the same context. There are many words that have more or less lost their original meaning and spa is one of them.


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## Caveat (22 Oct 2007)

ubiquitous said:


> Some years ago, Ronan Collins or one of the other RTE Radio 1 "easy listening" dj's played an old song called "Jeepers Creepers". Someone complained at the time that the song was offensive because the term Jeepers Creepers had originally been used to poke fun at This post will be deleted if not edited immediately Christ


 
But surely Jeepers Creepers was/is a euphemism?

If so, it's not the same thing - it was not designed to cause offence (in fact the opposite could be claimed).  If someone _takes_ offence that is one thing but the intention is not there.


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## annR (22 Oct 2007)

> The problem with calling a disabled person a spa is that just like any other term aimed at a section of society of group of people (be they homosexual, a different race or a different religion); we loose our ability to empathise with them on a human level and so it is easier to hate or ridicule them.


 
Good post Purple thank you.  I understand MrMan's point that the word has lost original meaning and is usually aimed at non-disabled people but I agree with Caveat.  It is saying ' like a spa' and still does carry the original meaning and therefore relates to spastics.  Apart from it being in very poor taste and not something you would want your kids to learn, things like this do contribute towards stigmatisation.  

As Purple says, stigmatisation leads to hatred as it enables us to think of those people as separate, different, therefore harder to empathise with.  Ask yourself how historic and current human rights abuses aimed at a particular section of society have started, become the norm, become acceptable before in some cases turning into full scale genocide or crimes against humanity.  That is definitely over the top I agree in this context but think about how these crimes start out and are enabled by society.  Our society has allowed stigmatision of disabled people but is going the right way I hope.  Every individual has to take responsibility for the terms they bandy around and the example they give to society.


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## slamdunkin (22 Oct 2007)

ClubMan said:


> Why is &quot;nigger&quot; often deemed acceptable when it's directed by one black person towards another?


 
its the same with Paddy for mutual Irish people abroad.


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## MrMan (22 Oct 2007)

> It is saying ' like a spa'



Pedantic mode now but i don't think people say you're like a spa, you spa, there is a difference.



> As Purple says, stigmatisation leads to hatred as it enables us to think of *those people *as separate, different, therefore harder to empathise with.



Ya I guess those people could be considered as a seperate group. To label anyone at all even politically correct enacts a stigma of sorts. We cannot please everyone.


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## speirbhean (22 Oct 2007)

MrMan said:


> Pedantic mode now but i don't think people say you're like a spa, you spa, there is a difference.
> 
> 
> 
> Ya I guess those people could be considered as a seperate group. To label anyone at all even politically correct enacts a stigma of sorts. We cannot please everyone.


 
Could you explain what you mean by this please?


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## MrMan (22 Oct 2007)

> i don't think people say you're like a spa, you spa



sorry, my brain was well ahead of my fingers I meant to say people usually say you're a spa, I didn't mean for it to read like i was calling the poster a spa. Actually writing that 3 letter word over and over is beginning to even feel childish. It is offensive in my mind just a lame old word that carries little clout today.

Is that explained enough or is there more?


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## annR (22 Oct 2007)

> Is that explained enough or is there more?


 
You tell us!  Do you still think it is a totally harmless word?  

I can tell that you think that this is all political correctness gone mad.  It's not all about being PC you know, most people would agree it's a rotten oul word anyway.


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## speirbhean (22 Oct 2007)

It was the second bit I didn't understand, actually. Who are 'those people'? The disabled? People with CP? People who use the world spa? I'm not being deliberately obtuse here, I just don't follow you! And although earlier, I was getting a bit annoyed that this thread was turning into a discussion on posters' command of the English language, I have to say I just don't understand what you mean!


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## Sn@kebite (22 Oct 2007)

annR said:


> I can tell that you think that this is all political correctness gone mad.  It's not all about being PC you know, most people would agree it's a rotten oul word anyway.


It is a foul word if used in a certain context. If you said "spa" to a hadicapped person in a joking way and they got offended, they'd have every right to and would deserve an apology.
On the other hand if you used it to a able person in a joking way and they did (get offended) they are being silly, i think. And as for people who say they are taking offense on behalf of the disbled, i think they are just attention seeking.
We should allow the disabled people to decide for themselves weather it's an offensive word when used in jest, and not pretend (?) that we care, because if I was to ask the people on this forum what they have done to help the disabled (Beit: donations, volunteer work etc..) a lot of them wouldn't have made any effort to help the disabled properly. So where comes the right to make decisions on behalf of disabled people here? Is that not like undermining/patronising disabled people when we decide *for* them? They have every right to stand up for themselves, so we should let them.


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## speirbhean (22 Oct 2007)

Sn@kebite said:


> It is a foul word if used in a certain context. If you said "spa" to a hadicapped person in a joking way and they got offended, they'd have every right to and would deserve an apology.
> On the other hand if you used it to a able person in a joking way and they did (get offended) they are being silly, i think. And as for people who say they are taking offense on behalf of the disbled, i think they are just attention seeking.
> We should allow the disabled people to decide for themselves weather it's an offensive word when used in jest, and not pretend (?) that we care, because if I was to ask the people on this forum what they have done to help the disabled (Beit: donations, volunteer work etc..) a lot of them wouldn't have made any effort to help the disabled properly. So where comes the right to make decisions on behalf of disabled people here? Is that not like undermining/patronising disabled people when we decide *for* them? They have every right to stand up for themselves, so we should let them.


 
Your description of 'helping' disabled people is patronising in the extreme. You are implying that the only way to interact with disabled people is to throw a few bob their way. If this society was more inclusive then you would meet far more people with disabilities in your workplace, in the pub etc. But societal factors including lack of physical access, employer prejudice etc prevents people with certain disabilities from mixing with the able bodied community, and that only adds to the ignorance surrounding this area. Yes I would be offended if someone used 'spa' in my presence, in the same way as I would if I heard 'ni**er', 'kn***er' etc. I once got out of a taxi and walked when I overheard the driver tell his friend that he was going to buy a 'cripple-wagon' to take advantage of the new legislation. I'm not looking for a medal for this, nor was I seeking attention. It just made me physically ill to be in that driver's company. And I had the physical abililty to get out of the cab and stand at a bus stop, whereas my disabled friends could not.
I absolutely agree that people with disabilities should speak for themselves. But, as an able bodied person, I too have the right to express my opinion, as long as it's not offensive. I have a friend with a physical disability who thinks the 'Lou and Andy' sketches in Little Britain is the funniest thing she's ever seen. I personally can't stand them. The world is big enough for both of our opinions.


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## MrMan (22 Oct 2007)

> It was the second bit I didn't understand, actually. Who are 'those people'? The disabled? People with CP? People who use the world spa? I'm not being deliberately obtuse here, I just don't follow you! And although earlier, I was getting a bit annoyed that this thread was turning into a discussion on posters' command of the English language, I have to say I just don't understand what you mean!



'Those people' was a direct quote from a previous poster, see below. I was merely pointing out that some of us stand up for those who we feel cannot do it for themselves and that act is in fact more offensive than the word 'spa'. People who take the rightous line can sometimes come across as patronising. 



> As Purple says, stigmatisation leads to hatred as it enables us to think of those people as separate, different, therefore harder to empathise with





> You tell us! Do you still think it is a totally harmless word?



Sorry AnnR I left out 'not offensive' in my previous post.Yes it is a harmless word, it doesn't enrage me or make me feel that a great wrong has been done onto anybody, so in my mind it is totally harmless (between adults - who by their very nature should not resort to name calling!)


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## dodo (22 Oct 2007)

I never said that you did all I said was if you and Purple and Rainyday thought like Ajapale that someone had to have a certain standare of education. The reason I mentioned you guys is because I find you all quite fair and when you cant make out something what is been said on AMM you have a nice polite way of saying it, ie not been rude or making one out to be stupid, so for that reason I mentioned you guys.


ClubMan said:


> I never said anything of the sort. As you imply it's not for me to dictate such matters unilaterally. I do find quite a few of your posts (e.g. earlier in this thread) almost impossible to decipher though.


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## RainyDay (22 Oct 2007)

MrMan said:


> Like alot of posters you seem to think that the word 'spa' is aimed at someone with a disability, my point was that it is generally pointed at someone without any obvious disability. Anyone that I have known that has killed themselves have suffered from a myriad of problems with depression one of them. Unfortunately their mental health issues ran a little deeper than suffering from name callling.



I wasn't hinting that name calling was a direct cause of suicide or serious mental health issues. I was suggesting that name calling creates an environment of intolerance, bullying, isolating, victimising etc etc which may well lead to mental health issues in the long term.


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## ragazza (23 Oct 2007)

I cant believe anyone on this site thinks it's acceptable to use the word spa, thinking that it's just a harmless word!

I think that people who use this word have forgotten, or are unaware that it comes from spastic. How can it not be offensive to call someone a spa, when in effect what you are saying, is that someone is like a spastic. How do you think any spastic people would feel on hearing this?

To me using the word spa is equally as bad a calling someone a mongol, schizo, moron, psycho etc. Thay are all belittling serious illnesses/conditions.


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## MrMan (23 Oct 2007)

> I cant believe anyone on this site thinks it's acceptable to use the word spa, thinking that it's just a harmless word!
> 
> I think that people who use this word have forgotten, or are unaware that it comes from spastic. How can it not be offensive to call someone a spa, when in effect what you are saying, is that someone is like a spastic. How do you think any spastic people would feel on hearing this?
> 
> To me using the word spa is equally as bad a calling someone a mongol, schizo, moron, psycho etc. Thay are all belittling serious illnesses/conditions.



I think the reasoning has been covered, but you left out, loon, mentalist and nutter and i would think spastic people would be utterly dismayed at our callousness


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## Sunny (23 Oct 2007)

ragazza said:


> To me using the word spa is equally as bad a calling someone a mongol, schizo, moron, psycho etc. Thay are all belittling serious illnesses/conditions.


 
Confession time. I have used the word psycho to describe certain people so I apologise to all those psychos out there that I may have offended.


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## Jock04 (23 Oct 2007)

ClubMan said:


> Nobody has been banned from _AAM _or asked to leave simply because they did not craft their posts perfectly in terms of grammar and spelling.


 
No, but "someone" did strongly suggest he was less than welcome, and made it clear they had some "official" capacity.
I think Dodo made it quite clear he was not accusing the others of this.


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## ajapale (23 Oct 2007)

dodo said:


> To tell the truth Clubman,sometimes my wife checks my post and sometimes not simple as that.



Dodo,

I accept your explanation and apologise for the tone and content of my earlier post.

ajapale


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## Brendan Burgess (23 Oct 2007)

Askaboutmoney is not intended to be elitist and should not become elitist in practice. I will draft a guideline on this. 

The mods do a good job in quickly removing trolls, spam etc. It's not always obvious what is a troll and what is genuine.  Sometimes we have  tolerated trolls in case they were genuine and sometimes we have deleted genuine posts. 

I too was suspicious of Dodo who produces well crafted English in some posts and, some not so well crafted English in other posts. I am glad he has explained this. 

Brendan


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## dodo (24 Oct 2007)

Accepted no hard feeling's Ajapale


ajapale said:


> Dodo,
> 
> I accept your explanation and apologise for the tone and content of my earlier post.
> 
> ajapale


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## RainyDay (13 Jan 2008)

I've removed a load of off-topic posts on spelling/grammar/moderation to facilitate reopening this thread.

Am I imagining things, or does the ad running on TV3 for the [broken link removed] lottery service include a line something like 'Ah you spa'?


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## Leo (14 Jan 2008)

RainyDay said:


> Am I imagining things, or does the ad running on TV3 for the [broken link removed] lottery service include a line something like 'Ah you spa'?


 
Think it says: 'ah, you spanner'.
Leo


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## REMFAN (14 Jan 2008)

I work with people with disability and the terms used in modern times are 'learning disability' and 'service user' (if availing of care).

Where is this thread going??? Shocked it was not deleted a dozen posts back. OP, make a complaint to RTE as that term is highly offensive to people with disability and their families.


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## ClubMan (14 Jan 2008)

REMFAN said:


> I work with people with disability and the terms used in modern times are 'learning disability'


What about people who have a disability which does not affect their abilities to learn - e.g. somebody with cerebral palsy whose cognitive functions are exactly the same as an able bodied person!?


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## RainyDay (14 Jan 2008)

Leo said:


> Think it says: 'ah, you spanner'.



Thanks


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## Sn@kebite (15 Jan 2008)

REMFAN said:


> OP, make a complaint to RTE as that term is highly offensive to people with disability and their families.


Is this just your view or is it actually the case for the majority of persons with disabilities?


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## REMFAN (15 Jan 2008)

ClubMan said:


> What about people who have a disability which does not affect their abilities to learn - e.g. somebody with cerebral palsy whose cognitive functions are exactly the same as an able bodied person!?


 
In that case clubman we would address that indivudual as having 'Special Needs'. The terms night not be perfect but they are must better that those menchioned above.

Skamkebite- This is the case for all families availing of a system of care, residential house,day servicers,respite etc


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## ClubMan (15 Jan 2008)

REMFAN said:


> In that case clubman we would address that indivudual as having 'Special Needs'. The terms night not be perfect but they are must better that those menchioned above.


Like calling a person who cannot hear "deaf", a person who cannot see "blind" etc.?


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