# Gas heating



## clarecelt (5 Dec 2005)

Wondering if anyone can indicate how to organise Gas central heating. 

Know how to get gas boiler etc but need to know the procedure to buy/lease the tank and the installation of tank etc..

Is it Calor, Bord Gais or who do I contact..


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## Carpenter (5 Dec 2005)

If you are located in an area not served by natural gas/ or where it's not available you should check [broken link removed] for details of tank, supply etc.


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## Kelmar (5 Dec 2005)

Have you checked out the price of Gas by tank ?  There is a big difference (or at least there was years ago when I researched it) between Gas by the tank and Gas on the mains (Bord Gais) Tank Gas was much more expensive.


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## z102 (6 Dec 2005)

Calor gas didn't want to sell tanks when I aproached them for one. So I went with Flogas. It was around €800.- for the 1400l model, delivered and connected. Make sure you buy the tank , don't rent it. If you rent the tank you have to buy the fillings always from the same company, you are "hooked" so to speak.The companys will give you a good deal-so they say. But the real world looks different. LPG on the free market costs about 30% less then from the contract -ahem-  dealer with his good deals. Check the prices- using the golden pages -from various companys for their LPG sold and delivered to the independant tank owner.Always ask for the final price , incl. the VAT.
I think Tervas is about the cheapest. But try the others as well.
What you need as well is a platform to place the tank on, a concrete slab for around € 100.-.Further you need to dig a trench and place a plastic gas pipeline into it, surounded by sand.
Get a brouchure from one of the suppliers to see what is involved.


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## clarecelt (12 Dec 2005)

Thanks Heinbloed,
  No joy with Calor or Flogas as regards purchasing the tank... Have you any contact name/number. 
          Thanks


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## kfpg (14 Dec 2005)

Heinbloed - I was so busy with other things towards the end of my build I just signed up to rent the tank but now that I see the gas bill it is expensive. A 30% differential is too much to ignore. Do you know if I can get out of the tank rental agreement now or am I signed up for ever........!!


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## z102 (20 Dec 2005)

You should study the rental contract. It might contain a clause that the tank has to be brought back which would cause a lot of trouble/costs. Most tank companies would offer this service but charge you for it: emptying it, disconnecting it, lifting it over the house with a crane might be necessary because the access could be blocked since the original placing.
So the second thing you should think about is how to bring in a new, bought tank. If that is possible then the company delivering the new tank should be able as well to pick up the old tank and transport it to the owner company.
The third job is the dealing: get an offer for the entire job and confront the tank rental company with the alternative to sell you the tank they are already renting to you.
You have to be tough in this dealing, maybe the rental company will lower their price for LPG delivered to you to stay in the lucrative business of renting. If they are showing good will get it fixed in a contract, a reduction for a short period won’t do, you would be in the same position as before after a short time. A good sample for an agreement would be a clause that they would deliver for a similar price as the best offer on the market from a free/independant trader. But still you would be stuck with the rental costs, which could be raised by them as well. And a tank in ownership is a better sales argument for the house than a tank rented to (may be) changing conditions and general high prices for the LPG itself.
Good luck, and let us know how it goes.


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## Berlin (20 Dec 2005)

Sorry to butt in - but I'm also thinking of going for gas, so to speak. Flogas have promised a discount of 25% off their normal rates for the next 2 years which seems pretty good, although I'm not finished shopping around yet. I'm very interested in Heinbloed's point about buying the tank. Is there anywhere else where these can be had apart from the big guys?


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## z102 (21 Dec 2005)

Flogas was my supplier as well. I bought the first batch of LPG on their discount rate of 25% only to find out that this dicount rate was still a good deal above the free market rate for LPG. 
So that was the only and last time I bought from them,when aproached by me about their pricing there was no reply.Good that I bought the tank. From Flogas.
But check the web, Flogas is importing them from GB, so it should be possible to do that as well. Check also E-bay and other second hand auctions. Remember that the installation of a tank should be done by a registered gas fitter.If you want than try any gas fitter from the golden pages if they could help with the purchase/buying and installing.


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## clarecelt (5 Jan 2006)

Hi Heinbloed,
 Still no joy on this..Will have to get Eddie Hobbs onto this gas tank monopoly. Do you have any idea of the manufacturer of these LPG tanks
        Thanks and Happy New Year


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## z102 (5 Jan 2006)

"Atlantic Tank" it says on mine. The inspection authority is "British Engine", so I suppose it's made in GB. But any tank manufactured in the EU would have to made to the same minimum standards I think.


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## clarecelt (6 Jan 2006)

Tanks Heinbloed 

Have done some trawling through the Internet and unable to find any info on Atlantic tanks or British Engine authority. 

Pulling my hair out trying to get to the bottom of this..So annoyed that I feel like ditching the gas boiler and reverting to Oil. Not interested in being cornered by Flogas/Calor or the likes into a contract. Its enough with the ESB cornering us!!!

If you come across any other info or ways around this it would be more than appreciated.


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## clarecelt (6 Jan 2006)

Currently scouring the UK for tank. Came across a company called Wesco who seem to manufacture them. Will have to wait until Monday to get some info.

Also wondering what the current pricing is for gas ???


Apologies for the rant but furious by allowing myself to be persuaded by plumber to go for a gas...it has been a nightmare and feel that there is a monopoly and no consumer choice..

IF ANYONE CAN HELP REGARDING SOURCING A TANK I WOULD BE MORE THAN APPRECIATIVE (MONEY , BEER whatever)


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## z102 (6 Jan 2006)

Sorry for your trouble, but good luck anyhow. Have you tried to jump the direct contacts with the gas supplier's reps and talked to someone in a higher position? I remember my countless trials and went this way, and -as I said before- was lucky with Flogas.The reps are usually earning their money for selling standard delivery contracts, so selling a tank is not the day to day business. And maybe not rewarded as good.


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## BillK (7 Jan 2006)

Try contacting Worcester Boilers here in UK to see if they can help.

Tel. No. 0870 741499
Or via their website www.worcester-bosch.co.uk


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## clarecelt (9 Jan 2006)

Hi Heinbloed,
 Last question. Can you recall what you paid for your tank. I am making inroads into sourcing one in the UK and will forward information once sourced.
      Thanks


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## insider (13 Jan 2006)

The LPG industry prefers to put as many barriers to sourcing storage vessels as possible. This is because if the customer base owned their own vessels this would create a more open and competitive market, thereby reducing margins.

The following are reputable storage vessel suppliers but don't be surprised if they are reluctant to provide you with a tank or even a quote, as they would prefer not to upset the LPG supply companies - their biggest customers.

The Competition Authorities are investigating the LPG Bulk Supply market in the UK. ([broken link removed])

Hope this helps.

Schneider Tankwise
The Granary,
Bishton Lane,
Chepstow
Gwent NP16 7LG 

Phone Number:01291 620053 
Fax Number:01291 628060

Gas Power Services Ltd
Little Money Road
Loddon
Norwich
NR14 6JD

Tel: 01508 528022


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## z102 (13 Jan 2006)

I paid € 800 for my 1400 liter tank plus 21 % VAT. , so € 968 . That was from Flogas Ireland in 2003 . As Insider says ( and other posters as well) it's the Mafia you're dealing with. When I asked for a tank I wasn't told that "they" mean a reconditioned second hand tank when quoting me the price. So I agreed and got it. I paid them and that was it , no more business with that company.
But be stiff and learn from others. The Dutch have a very liberal ( free )market for LPG and any thing to do with it, as far as I remember 1O % market penetration in the home energy market and even more in the automotive sector. So you could try to get it there.
Reconditioned tanks are no problem as long as they have the seal of aproval, any gas fitter should be able to hand out the seal/document.A testing of a pressurised container should be done every ten years, sometimes the delivery driver of the LPG company is able to do so, even free of charge , you are his client. So when going for a second hand tank check that you have the documentation and/or the seal on the tank.If that is missing ( that can happen) then buy under the (written) condition that you will get your money back if it fails the first inspection.


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## clarecelt (16 Jan 2006)

Thanks Heinbloed and Insider.
 Actually since on the board last I made a few calls and spoke to Schneider and another company called Wesco Normanby and both will sell tanks. Once you have tank purchased installed etc. Are you free to ask Calor or Flogas to fill tank or will they want to see their own tank on site..

The price i got for tank was 1400 GBP. 

Who are the most competitive companies for LPG supply in Ireland ??


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## kfpg (16 Jan 2006)

Can I check Clarecelt if you have a tank already you are replacing ( I mean getting rid of from either Calor or Flogas due to the duopoly) or is this an initial install.
My situation is I signed up to Calor on a tank rental agreement but now wish I had not. I also think I am locked into some kind of purchase agreement based on having their tank which i am sure can't be legal based on euro / anti-competetive practice and so on. If I could get out of this I would buy a tank straight away also.


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## clarecelt (16 Jan 2006)

Hi Lakeview,
 Dont have any tank and is a new installation and thus querying about the purchasing of same. I am interested in being tied into a contract. However in your case you have already signed up so might have to pay some fee to get Calor to remove tank.

Did you have a bad experience with Calor ??


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## kfpg (16 Jan 2006)

clarecelt said:
			
		

> Hi Lakeview,
> I am interested in being tied into a contract.
> 
> Did you have a bad experience with Calor ??


 
Is that a typo - I would have thought the whole point of your own tank is NOT to be tied into a contract.

No specific bad experience with Calor except that along with Flogas they monopolise the market and charge well above the free market price for LPG as have been stated by Heinbloed previously. I would like to get out of my tank / purchase arrangement with Calor purely to avail of free market pricing.


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## clarecelt (16 Jan 2006)

Yes Lakeview that was a typo...

I am hoping to ring a few gas suppliers regarding price of LPG

Where can one get the best deals on LPG ?


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## z102 (16 Jan 2006)

The price of 1400GBP seems o.k. even though it's in the upper range- if it's for a 1400l tank and includes placement and regulators and VAT. 
The cheapest company for bulk LP gas I came across is Tervas in Cork, Barrack Street,Tel. 021/4317317 . If any one has another bulk LPG delivery company, except for Flogas and Calor, let us know !


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## clarecelt (16 Jan 2006)

Heinbloed,
 This is for 2000 litre tank...regarding regulators etc I am not sure but Schneider sell to Calor as well so hopefully can get the same set up as Calor. So tomorrow will be able to get a better estimate on the total price. Of course I will have to organise the delivery and installation..

Do Tervas cover other areas than Cork ??

It would be good to actually ask people what they are paying for LPG as from my little bit of study there seems to be a large variance in price.


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## z102 (17 Jan 2006)

The SEI homepage does a fuel comparison sheet every now and then. Thanks heaven I copyed the last one from October 2005, it disapeared thereafter and was replaced with an even more outdated version from April 2005 . Bulk LPG was given on the October sheet with € 0.57 per liter.
I guess the numbers are suplied to the SEI by the two major players Flogas and Calorgas.
I think that because the July sheet (copied as well!) from the first of July 2005 showed a liter price of € 0.51 incl. VAT on the SEI fuel comparison sheet, the data was propably collected the month before. But I paid in June only €0.397 incl. VAT per liter with Tervas. So Calorgas was over  25 %  more expensive , charging at the time € 51.47 per liter !!! Flogas, which still wanted to give me their "special rate " , gave me a price of € 0.436 ( 10% more expensive!!). All prices where given to me within the 10 minutes during which I made the calls.
A tank of 2000 liter would put you in an even stronger buyer position to get the best offer, who want's to miss such an order ?
I think Tervas would deliver to other areas as well, home heating is not the only use for LPG , motoring and industry depends on it as well. But better phone and ask yourself.


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## clarecelt (17 Jan 2006)

Just awaiting a quotation from Tervas !!!

Spoke to Calor who indicate that they only supply to their own tanks !! The supplier of the Calor tanks is going to sell a tank to me. This seems a ludicrous setup !!


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## Berlin (18 Jan 2006)

I wonder if that's legal? Would it come under some sort of restrictive practices legislation?


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## clarecelt (18 Jan 2006)

Hi Berlin,
 Should contact director of consumer affairs or Ombudsman... Unfortunately Tervas wont deliver to Clare. Any other companies that provide bulk LPG.

Best that I could get from Flogas is 68cent / litre !!! How does this sound to the gas experts out there...
        Thanks


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## z102 (18 Jan 2006)

68 cents per litre is expensive, though I haven't bought any since the last half year. Have you checked the yellow/golden pages? If you can't find the bulk LPG deliverys in your version of the yellow/golden pages try  the bottled gas suppliers, they get their fillings by the tank load as well and might be able to help you.
Keep in mind that the LP gas mafia is reading this page as well, so they will do everything to be one step beyond .


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## lfcfan (7 Aug 2007)

Hi Lads. Have any of you any more info on this. Currently building my house and will be going with Gas. I want to buy the tank aswell. Not having much luck finding someone to sell it to me though


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