# dividend yield Reits



## galway_blow_in (24 Dec 2020)

hopefully this complies with the rules re_ discussing stocks

can anyone tell me what the current yield of both IRES and Hibernia is , im reading conflicting reports 

one website says hibernia is 4.48% ?

with IRES at 4.09% ?


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## RedOnion (24 Dec 2020)

Hi,
Based on current share prices they're both yielding between 4.1 & 4.2%


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## galway_blow_in (9 Jan 2021)

RedOnion said:


> Hi,
> Based on current share prices they're both yielding between 4.1 & 4.2%




hi red onion , i missed your reply as i have not been on this site as often lately , thanks for the info , excellent yields on both right now


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## Gordon Gekko (9 Jan 2021)

It’s amazing really that they don’t get as much traction or attention as real property.

A shareholder has so many benefits versus owning a property directly:

- It’s liquid, i.e. you can sell it immediately
- You can sell it cheaply
- You can increase or decrease your holding
- They can borrow more cheaply than we can so you’re accessing cheap debt
- They have economies of scale in terms of maintenance etc
- You don’t have to manage it or deal with tenants
- You’re diversified; instead of concentrated risk around one property, you’ve a little share of thousands so problem tenants or vacancies aren’t a real worry
- If you go non-resident, you’re no longer subject to CGT, whereas with a property, you are


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## joe sod (10 Jan 2021)

Gordon Gekko said:


> It’s amazing really that they don’t get as much traction or attention as real property.


yea correct, I think the reason like all shares is that their share prices move immediately to events and thats what frightens people away. At the start of the year the irish reits dropped rapidly to the news of sinn fein getting so many seats and then shortly afterwards they got whacked by the corona. For example ires reit dropped from around 1.6 euros down to 0.9 euros very quickly. Of course it turned out to be a gross over reaction and nothing really changed with the business they still held the same property and collected the same rent. 
Now the share price is back to where it was more or less a year ago , The big bad wolf didn't blow the house down and everyone lived happily ever after.


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## Gordon Gekko (10 Jan 2021)

Yes, property’s advantage is that you don’t see the price falling like a stone on the screen. Even though it might actually be.


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## RedOnion (10 Jan 2021)

Gordon Gekko said:


> Yes, property’s advantage is that you don’t see the price falling like a stone on the screen. Even though it might actually be.


That, and a 'panic' sell takes months. So you usually see sense before you make a mistake.


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## rob oyle (10 Jan 2021)

Well, you could look at it this way - I've held Hibernia REIT for a weighted average of almost 5 years now. My investment is down 15% in that time... I don't think the REIT tracks property values in this country very well.


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## BadSuperman (10 Jan 2021)

Interesting @ rob oyle - have you done any analysis to figure out why that might be the case.


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## rob oyle (10 Jan 2021)

BadSuperman said:


> Interesting @ rob oyle - have you done any analysis to figure out why that might be the case.


Not really... I'd held Green REIT shares too and until they were bought out, they spent most of their time underwater too. REIT shares also seem to trade well below the net asset value (not that uncommon I guess).
I hold REITs as diversification but I don't think they represent the substitute for property ownership that was originally intended.


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## Gordon Gekko (11 Jan 2021)

rob oyle said:


> Not really... I'd held Green REIT shares too and until they were bought out, they spent most of their time underwater too. REIT shares also seem to trade well below the net asset value (not that uncommon I guess).
> I hold REITs as diversification but I don't think they represent the substitute for property ownership that was originally intended.



I’m referring to IRES more than, say, Hibernia or Green. On the basis that IRES is pure residential.


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## fistophobia (11 Jan 2021)

I would stay away from the REIT shares.
In my mind its a trap. The yield is not real.
A lot of the UK peers have written down asset values.


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## RedOnion (11 Jan 2021)

fistophobia said:


> The yield is not real.


Do you mind explaining how real cash is not real?


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## AJAM (1 Feb 2021)

Gordon Gekko said:


> It’s amazing really that they don’t get as much traction or attention as real property.
> 
> A shareholder has so many benefits versus owning a property directly:
> 
> ...



Agree 100% with that and would also add that it simplifies tax too as instead of trying to work out all the individual property tax deductions, you only have the dividend tax to deal with (on an annual basis). Whether it's REIT dividend, ETF dividend or Rental property it's all taxed at your marginal rate anyway.

However, I wouldn't recommend Hibernia or Green REIT, because they not diversified enough for me. I think an ETF like 
IPRP = iShares European Property Yield UCITS ETF 
Gives you good diversification with no currency risk. 

Note REITs don't directly track property prices, they are actually based on Rental Yields. Of course, that will correlate closely to property prices, but they're not quite the same thing.


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## galway_blow_in (3 Feb 2021)

fistophobia said:


> I would stay away from the REIT shares.
> In my mind its a trap. The yield is not real.
> A lot of the UK peers have written down asset values.



i would think the yield is not the problem but the failure to track property prices ?

perhaps they should not be pitched as a substitute for direct investment in BTL ?


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## jpd (3 Feb 2021)

fistophobia said:


> I would stay away from the REIT shares.
> In my mind its a trap. The yield is not real.
> A lot of the UK peers have written down asset values.


If they write down their asset values, the price should drop and the yield will increase


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## galway_blow_in (20 Mar 2021)

Perhaps a silly question but why is one of the Irish REIT,s so chronicly illiquid in terms of trade volume?

Really steals from it's attraction


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## RedOnion (20 Mar 2021)

galway_blow_in said:


> Perhaps a silly question but why is one of the Irish REIT,s so chronicly illiquid in terms of trade volume?


Obviously because nobody wants to sell! 

Some of them are also listed in UK, so make sure it's the most liquid listing you're looking at.
Unless you're putting over 200k into them, I wouldn't be too worried about liquidity.


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## galway_blow_in (20 Mar 2021)

RedOnion said:


> Obviously because nobody wants to sell!
> 
> Some of them are also listed in UK, so make sure it's the most liquid listing you're looking at.
> Unless you're putting over 200k into them, I wouldn't be too worried about liquidity.



Some days the volume is below 100000


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## joe sod (20 Mar 2021)

galway_blow_in said:


> Perhaps a silly question but why is one of the Irish REIT,s so chronicly illiquid in terms of trade volume?
> 
> Really steals from it's attraction


Well its alot more "liquid" than property itself remember, you don't find out daily the value of your house because its never listed. The irish property market wasn't too liquid in 2009,10 and 11 ,there was a whilethere  where some property could not even get a bid


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## galway_blow_in (20 Mar 2021)

joe sod said:


> Well its alot more "liquid" than property itself remember, you don't find out daily the value of your house because its never listed. The irish property market wasn't too liquid in 2009,10 and 11 ,there was a whilethere  where some property could not even get a bid



was just wondering why so little stock is traded ?

perhaps a silly question but volume seems remarkably low for the residential one in particular ?


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## jpd (21 Mar 2021)

Maybe most of the investors are "Buy & Hold"?

After all, if you buy a house you don't generally sell it the next year to buy another


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## galway_blow_in (21 Mar 2021)

jpd said:


> Maybe most of the investors are "Buy & Hold"?
> 
> After all, if you buy a house you don't generally sell it the next year to buy another



Yes but REITs are still publicly traded securities,  buy and hold as  a key philosophy can still apply while wondering why volume is so incredibly thin ?

I've a good bit in both the main residential and commercial REITs and the dividend yields are terrific but it is sort of weighing on my mind a little

Always heard it said that very low volume traded stocks can fall in value an awful lot


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## jpd (21 Mar 2021)

What stock are you talking about?

As an example -Microsoft stock trades less than 1% on average every day on the Nasdaq, Total the same in Paris, Llyods Bank UK ave t/o 237M out of a float of 67B shares


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## RedOnion (21 Mar 2021)

galway_blow_in said:


> Always heard it said that very low volume traded stocks can fall in value an awful lot


Only if there's a massive sell off.
>60% of the free float of IRES is held by institutional investors - funds, pensions, etc. There have been days when individual funds have purchased >1m shares, so there's obviously plenty of shares exchanging hands when the price is right.

I doubt the volumes differ too much from UK REITs with a similar market cap.

It's certainly not something that has ever crossed my mind as a concern, and Irish REITs make up a material share if my non pension assets.


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## galway_blow_in (21 Mar 2021)

RedOnion said:


> Only if there's a massive sell off.
> >60% of the free float of IRES is held by institutional investors - funds, pensions, etc. There have been days when individual funds have purchased >1m shares, so there's obviously plenty of shares exchanging hands when the price is right.
> 
> I doubt the volumes differ too much from UK REITs with a similar market cap.
> ...



well thats good to know , i doubt my choices sometimes so even though i decided to only invest in REITs in terms of property anymore due to having enough bricks and mortar property , i was beginning to wonder if those irish REITs were too good to be true

from observing the on the ground market recently , it sort of beggars belief that some people buy a house delivering a mere 5% yield when a REIT pays 4% ( or at least did when i bought ) , i know you can leverage when buying real property but a lot of BTL right now are cash buyers so they could buy REIT,s too


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## galway_blow_in (21 Mar 2021)

jpd said:


> What stock are you talking about?
> 
> As an example -Microsoft stock trades less than 1% on average every day on the Nasdaq, Total the same in Paris, Llyods Bank UK ave t/o 237M out of a float of 67B shares



its against the rules to indentify individual stocks but its an irish REIT that exclusively focuses on residential


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## jpd (21 Mar 2021)

I think we are allowed to discuss the ins and outs of investing eg low stock turnover and use various companies to explain the how and why but not to promote or otherwise the stock in question.

Many stocks have a low turnover ratio - but whether this is a problem or not depends on your order size

If the order book of a stock is such that your order would take the first ten positions to fill, then obviously your order will move the price of the stock.

If you order is small compared to the order book, then there is little risk of affecting the price one way or another.

The last few times I looked the order book for IRES was 50-60,000 on both sides with a spread of maybe € 1 in total so an order for 10-20,000 shares would have been filled relatively quickly and painlessly

If you are in the market for 200,000 or 300,000 shares then it is a different question

But the same can be said of all stocks.

As REIT go, IRES is quite small. The biggest European REITs are valued at € 10 Billion and above. IRES market cap is € 850M


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## galway_blow_in (21 Mar 2021)

jpd said:


> I think we are allowed to discuss the ins and outs of investing eg low stock turnover and use various companies to explain the how and why but not to promote or otherwise the stock in question.
> 
> Many stocks have a low turnover ratio - but whether this is a problem or not depends on your order size
> 
> ...



i wasnt buying tranches of 200,000 , i was buying 20 thousand and still found it difficult going , perhaps i just happened to try it on a particularly thin volume day ?

ive a hundred thousand euro in both the residential REIT and the Commercial REIT that operates in Dublin 

the residential one is up over 15% since i bought , the commercial is flat


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## RedOnion (21 Mar 2021)

galway_blow_in said:


> i was buying 20 thousand and still found it difficult going


Are you using limit orders?


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## galway_blow_in (21 Mar 2021)

RedOnion said:


> Are you using limit orders?



of course , the spread is quite wide


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## AJAM (22 Mar 2021)

galway_blow_in said:


> i wasnt buying tranches of 200,000 , i was buying 20 thousand and still found it difficult going , perhaps i just happened to try it on a particularly thin volume day ?
> 
> ive a hundred thousand euro in both the residential REIT and the Commercial REIT that operates in Dublin
> 
> the residential one is up over 15% since i bought , the commercial is flat



Good luck with the Investment Galimh, but I would be nervous about taking so much country specific risk.
Especially as Ireland is a small country, with some of Europe's highest property prices combined with some of Europe's lowest property densities.

I think a REIT ETF like IPRP = iShares European Property Yield UCITS ETF
Gives you good diversification with no currency risk.

In 2007 I was almost fully invested in Irish Banks and Irish Constructions stocks, so I'm a zealot when it comes to diversification now!


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## jpd (22 Mar 2021)

The trouble for Irish investors, is that ETFs are heavily taxed compared to REITs themselves

However, you could buy shares in three or four European REIT to spread your exposure across Europe


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## AJAM (22 Mar 2021)

jpd said:


> The trouble for Irish investors, is that ETFs are heavily taxed compared to REITs themselves


True, but I would argue that with REIT's you expect the majority of your return to come from the Dividends. Not from price appreciation.


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## galway_blow_in (22 Mar 2021)

AJAM said:


> Good luck with the Investment Galimh, but I would be nervous about taking so much country specific risk.
> Especially as Ireland is a small country, with some of Europe's highest property prices combined with some of Europe's lowest property densities.
> 
> I think a REIT ETF like IPRP = iShares European Property Yield UCITS ETF
> ...



that  ETF REIT has even thinner trading volume than the irish one im referring to


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## AJAM (23 Mar 2021)

Unless you're a Day Trader, Trading Volume is irrelevant. 
Anyway, all ETF's have market makers, meaning, in the extremely unlikely event that you you couldn't find a buyer or seller to take the opposite side of your trade, the ETF will step in, take the opposite side of your trade and then either create or destroy ETF shares by buying/selling the underlying securities.

In relation to IPRP - If you check it out on justeft.com, it's traded on 7 different stock exchanges in 3 different currencies, with a fund size of almost 1.6 Billion with a B Euro. Over all the exchanges, It's trading volume will be far greater than the Irish REITs.


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## galway_blow_in (23 Mar 2021)

AJAM said:


> Unless you're a Day Trader, Trading Volume is irrelevant.
> Anyway, all ETF's have market makers, meaning, in the extremely unlikely event that you you couldn't find a buyer or seller to take the opposite side of your trade, the ETF will step in, take the opposite side of your trade and then either create or destroy ETF shares by buying/selling the underlying securities.
> 
> In relation to IPRP - If you check it out on justeft.com, it's traded on 7 different stock exchanges in 3 different currencies, with a fund size of almost 1.6 Billion with a B Euro. Over all the exchanges, It's trading volume will be far greater than the Irish REITs.



I'm not a day trader but trading volume is more important than you describe


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