# Insulation /question



## Taydo (26 Nov 2008)

Forgive me if this has been asked already. What insulation is included in a standard builders finish. What extra insulation would you reccomend as a worthwhile addition. Answers on a Postcard please to PO.Box I Know Sweet FA about Building. St Moritz Halting Site. Dublin 44.


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## davidoco (26 Nov 2008)

You don't want to be agreeing a house build with a builder with just the phrase "standard builders finish".

That phrase used to mean insulation to standards prevailing at the time "Building Regulations - Part L" available on sei.ie and each builder would vary on what insulation they would put in to scrape within those regulations. Follow the attached link and see what they could put in to meet the minimum spec

You need to look at the U Value required see [broken link removed]

Note my understand is that the regulations have changed and that the following should appear in bold on those pages

roofs (insulated on flat) 0.16 W/mK
roofs (insulated on pitch) 0.2 W/mK
walls 0.27 W/mK
ground floors 0.25 W/mK

(post edited to show correct values required)

What extra insulation ????? That's the million dollar question - you will find people putting in 200mm polyurethane in floor, full fill cavity insulation with insulation backed plasterboard on the inside, 300mm to 500 mm fibreglass in attic.

Remember double the insulation does not halve the heat loss figures.


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## Taydo (26 Nov 2008)

Thanks for that. Won't be able to do floor or External walls as they are already done but would be anxious to know wht you would recommend for underneath wood flooring, internal walls and attic??? Again thanks very much for the info it does help a lot.


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## sydthebeat (26 Nov 2008)

sorry david, those figures are incorrect.

min u values:

roofs (insulated on flat) 0.16 W/mK
roofs (insulated on pitch) 0.2 W/mK
walls 0.27 W/mK
ground floors 0.25 W/mK


to the OP, dont let the builder specify your insulation, its the job of your certifier to certify compliance with building reg... so ask him / her.

You are legally required to get a Building Energy Rating (BER) done... so my best advice would be to hire a BER assessor to do a prelimanary assessment on the plans and develop an insulation specification from this.


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## Taydo (26 Nov 2008)

Thanks Syd, didn't know you were legally obliged to get a BER done, Building Virgin me. Will do that, how much do they cost and would they still be able to do an assesment eventhough the Floor has been poured and Walls are up????


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## davidoco (26 Nov 2008)

sydthebeat said:


> sorry david, those figures are incorrect.


 
Thanks - original post amended for clarity, they keep changing the goal posts on values needed. My own particular house got permission in or around 2002, built in 2005 and occupied in 2007 and I understand the levels have changed twice in that time.



Taydo said:


> ..... floor and External walls already done but would be anxious to know wht you would recommend for underneath wood flooring, internal walls and attic??? Again thanks very much for the info it does help a lot.


 
Out of interest do you know what went into the floor and walls. Half the battle may have been lost already! For the sake of your sanity get a BER assessment done (you'll require it in any event), consider your rating, then you'll have loads of questions about insulation.


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## sydthebeat (26 Nov 2008)

Taydo said:


> Thanks Syd, didn't know you were legally obliged to get a BER done, Building Virgin me. Will do that, how much do they cost and would they still be able to do an assesment eventhough the Floor has been poured and Walls are up????


 
yes, the legal requirement is to get the assessment done prior to you occupying the dwelling, but many clients choose to get a preliminary assessment done off the plans so they can make selections during teh build, ie insulation, heating system and controls etc.

it would be an idea to get an assessor on board now as theres a certain amount of information you need to retain in order to get the best possible rating on assessment, mainly product names and serials etc.


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## sfag (26 Nov 2008)

techniical info all very well but can someone translate those regulation figures into actual insulation dimensions

eg what thickness of kinhspan high density does one use for walls. it used to be 60 mil. Is it more?


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## sydthebeat (26 Nov 2008)

sfag said:


> techniical info all very well but can someone translate those regulation figures into actual insulation dimensions
> 
> eg what thickness of kinhspan high density does one use for walls. it used to be 60 mil. Is it more?


 
sfag, say you have two dwellings

one is a detached 1350 sq ft bungalow
the other is a 1350 sq ft 2 storey semi-d

under the new regs (2007 part L) the two dwellings could require different insulation thicknesses in the walls (of the same material) to comply with regulations... why??

because the bungalow has a lot more exposed wall surface area for heat to escape from than the semi-d..... if you picture the actual shapes it becomes obvious.

then say you consider the air tightness of each.. .say the bungalow is 25% less air tight than the semi d.. it may require 25% more insulation to meet the same energy efficiency criteria.

The days of simply specifying a thickness for floor / wall / roof are over. the whole house has to be looked at as one entity, with all factors such as orientation, solar gains, air tighntess, heating system and controls etc


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## davidoco (26 Nov 2008)

sfag said:


> techniical info all very well but can someone translate those regulation figures into actual insulation dimensions
> 
> eg what thickness of kinhspan high density does one use for walls. it used to be 60 mil. Is it more?


 
from [broken link removed]
Only the last last three items in this list can meet the 0.27 W/mK requirement, athough 60mm of TW50 from Kingspan in a cavity will give 0.27 - see note  below

Cabity Wall Insulation
100mm blown polystyrene, mineral wool, cellulose fibre 
0.30
60mm extruded polystyrene insulation 
0.40
35mm polyurethane foam board 
0.39
35mm phenolic foam board
0.37
Timber frame 150 mm, mineral quilt
0.25
Timber frame 140mm, cellulose fibre 
0.19
Safewarm home construction
0.31​ 
Note the above take no account of building volume, area of heat loss elements or air tightness as described by sydthebeat.

Excellent guide here [broken link removed]


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## Taydo (26 Nov 2008)

Lads and Lassies, I'm confused had a chat with my engineer at lunchtime and He said that you anly need a BER legally when selling a house not when you are using it as your home like me. All thoughts greatly appreciated.


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## sydthebeat (26 Nov 2008)

Taydo said:


> Lads and Lassies, I'm confused had a chat with my engineer at lunchtime and He said that you anly need a BER legally when selling a house not when you are using it as your home like me. All thoughts greatly appreciated.


 

*This post will be deleted if not edited immediately, even the professionals dont know the bloody law...*

taydo....
show him this:
[broken link removed]

point him towards paragraph 7 (1)..... which states

_7. (1) *A person who commissions the construction of a building* of a class referred to in subparagraph (a) or (b) of paragraph (4) construction of *which commences on or after such date specified* for that class in the said subparagraphs *shall, before such building is occupied for the first time, secure a BER certificate* (in the form prescribed by the First Schedule or Second Schedule to these Regulations, as appropriate) *and advisory report in relation to the building* and shall produce a printed copy of such BER certificate and advisory report to the building control authority in whose functional area the building is situated, on demand being made by that authority for its production._ 

_(5) The provisions of subparagraphs (a) and (b) of paragraph (4) shall not apply to the following buildings – _​
_(a) a new dwelling for which planning permission was applied for or a planning notice was published on or before 31 December 2006 , *and where substantial work is completed by 30 June 2008;* _




[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]I have bolded up the relevant wording.[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]To be honest, it doesnt fill me with much confidence that your 'engineer' isnt up to speed with a law thats in place now nearly 2 years!![/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial][/FONT][/FONT] 
[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial][/FONT][/FONT] 
[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]Edit: corrected operative dates[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]
[/FONT][/FONT]


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## davidoco (26 Nov 2008)

Taydo said:


> ....... I'm confused .......


 
Whatever about the legal requirement, a few hundred euro spent now on an assessment may save you thousands in the years ahead.  Even the fact that you have a BER Assessment means that the wool (no pun intended if you go down that route) cannot be pulled over your eyes by a builder throwing in 150mm fibreglass in the attic because that's the way he's used to doing it.


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## Taydo (26 Nov 2008)

Thanks Syd but in fairness too him the building did commence before 01 July 2008 so maybe I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that said and done if there was an exam in Common Sense they wouldn,t let him even sit it.


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## Taydo (26 Nov 2008)

I'll probably get it done anyway as David says iy will benefit us in the long run.


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## sydthebeat (26 Nov 2008)

Taydo said:


> Thanks Syd but in fairness too him the building did commence before 01 July 2008 so maybe I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that said and done if there was an exam in Common Sense they wouldn,t let him even sit it.


 
i actually have wrong dates bolded above taydo....

the regs state the the dwelling would need to be 'substantially complete' before 30 june 2008..

ill find it and edit the above post.


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## glic83 (26 Nov 2008)

we move into our house a few months back,is there a minium standard of insulation that has to be put into an attic my house is a new build but when i was up in the attic the other day there was a few gaps either side of the insulation and the joists?im going to have to put more insulation in but i just wanted to know if there is a certain standard that the insulation in the house sould be up to


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## sydthebeat (26 Nov 2008)

glic83 said:


> we move into our house a few months back,is there a minium standard of insulation that has to be put into an attic my house is a new build but when i was up in the attic the other day there was a few gaps either side of the insulation and the joists?im going to have to put more insulation in but i just wanted to know if there is a certain standard that the insulation in the house sould be up to


 
did someone certify the build??

can you tell us what product is in your attic.... wool fibre or rigid board?
and approx what thickness?


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## glic83 (26 Nov 2008)

certify as in an enery rating for the house?no, just moved into the house there when i came home from oversea's in september,its wool fibre and i havent got the thickness will check it out in a bit


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## sfag (27 Nov 2008)

sydthebeat said:


> sfag, say you have two dwellings
> 
> one is a detached 1350 sq ft bungalow
> the other is a 1350 sq ft 2 storey semi-d
> ...


 
Didn't appreciate that fact. Gawd is sounds complicated. Y'know there is no such thing as building control in this country (they have it in the North) so who is going to police these things?.


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## sfag (27 Nov 2008)

davidoco said:


> from [broken link removed]
> Only the last last three items in this list can meet the 0.27 W/mK requirement, athough 60mm of TW50 from Kingspan in a cavity will give 0.27 - see note below
> 
> Cabity Wall Insulation
> ...


 
If 60 mm of Kingspan does the job then insulation regulations havent changed that much in the last three three years...??


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## sfag (27 Nov 2008)

sydthebeat said:


> *This post will be deleted if not edited immediately, even the professionals dont know the bloody law...*
> 
> taydo....
> show him this:
> ...


 


I'd say the engineer is right - speaking realistically. 

I built three years ago. No one from officialdom ever came and inspected the insulation, the wiring done, or indeed anything to do with the building quality. I suspect that will not change so in effect the 1st inspection for compliance with new insulation standards will come when the house is going to be sold.


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## sydthebeat (27 Nov 2008)

sfag said:


> I'd say the engineer is right - speaking realistically.
> 
> I built three years ago. No one from officialdom ever came and inspected the insulation, the wiring done, or indeed anything to do with the building quality. I suspect that will not change so in effect the 1st inspection for compliance with new insulation standards will come when the house is going to be sold.


 
did you not have to get your build certified?


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## eire1977 (27 Nov 2008)

Insulation Experts - can I have your opinion.

This is the spec of insulation I'm thinking of going for in my timber frame and I'd like your views.

_External:  150mm Rockwool Insulation  fitted between external studs (400mm centres) _
_with 25mm of kingspan insulation  fitted across studs to counter thermal bridging.
_ _
_
_Sloped Ceilings: 150mm  Metac Insulation fitted between external roof joists (400mm centres) with 25mm of kingspan insulation  fitted across studs
_
_
_
_Attic:  150mm glass wool between first floor and attic space for acoustic  and thermal barrier. 150mm Metac Insulation fitted between external roof joists (400mm  centres) _
_with 25mm of kingspan insulation  fitted across joists. And gables fitted with 150mm  Rockwool with 25mm of kingspan insulation fitted across studs.

Floor:  100mm Kingspan_


What U value (give or take) do you think I can get with the above spec?

Thanks in advance


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## joebre (27 Nov 2008)

Taydo,

The ref that sydthebeat posted regarding "the building being substantially complete by 30th June 2008" is for planning that was applied for planning before 1st January 2007.

Any house that applied for planning after 1st January 2007 requires a BER cert and had to comply with TGD 2005. 

If the property is not substantially completed by 30th June 2008, the TGD 2007 will apply.
So you will have to check when planning was applied for to see what level of compliance you need.


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## Taydo (27 Nov 2008)

Didn't apply for it before 1 jan 2007.


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## sydthebeat (28 Nov 2008)

joebre said:


> Taydo,
> 
> The ref that sydthebeat posted regarding "the building being substantially complete by 30th June 2008" is for planning that was applied for planning before 1st January 2007.
> 
> ...


 


we have to keep BER and TGD L separate for clarity:

Part L
2007 applies if the dwelling was applied for permission after 1st July 2008
and if not substantially complete by 1st July *2009*
2005 applies otherwise

BER
This is applicable to all dwellings applied for permission after 1st july 2007, or, if applied for permission before that date, not substantially complete by 30 June 2008


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## sydthebeat (28 Nov 2008)

Taydo said:


> Didn't apply for it before 1 jan 2007.


 
The your house legally requires a BER certificate before you occupy it.


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## wexford dude (28 Nov 2008)

Who is going to check that this is done


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## Peeete (28 Nov 2008)

sydthebeat said:


> we have to keep BER and TGD L separate for clarity:
> 
> Part L
> 2007 applies if the dwelling was applied for permission after 1st July 2008
> ...


Should this not be:

2007 applies if the dwelling was applied for permission after 1st July 2008

*OR

**if permission was applied for before the 1st of July 2008 AND* *the dwelling is NOT* substantially complete by 1st July *2009*

2005 applies otherwise


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## sydthebeat (28 Nov 2008)

Peeete said:


> Should this not be:
> 
> 2007 applies if the dwelling was applied for permission after 1st July 2008
> 
> ...


 
well, its the same thing really...

it was just a way of saying that *every* dwelling not substantially complete by 1st july 2009 needs to comply with 2007 part L


But you are more correct in your wording


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## sfag (28 Nov 2008)

sydthebeat said:


> did you not have to get your build certified?


 
Yes. But its 6 quick onsite chats with people that I appoint and pay. No measuring tapes were produced.  Its almost self certification. Hardly strigent ? 
You need someone from officialdom doing it as they do in the North.


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## sydthebeat (28 Nov 2008)

sfag said:


> Yes. But its 6 quick onsite chats with people that I appoint and pay. No measuring tapes were produced. Its almost self certification. Hardly strigent ?
> You need someone from officialdom doing it as they do in the North.


 
I completely agree with you... the system we have done here is terrible..
Some building controls sections view visits 10-15% of new builds to be a success!!!! insane!!

Although im a certifier, i know of some 'cowboys' who are able to do this just by providing their own Pi insurance.

The reason i was asking about your certification is because the certifier is the one who takes responsibility that the work is done in accordance to building regs.... this includes structure, ventilation, hygiene, fire, energy conservation, materials, wporkmanship, access etc etc...

The wiring should be signed off by a registered electrician RECI member, before ESB will connect, so thats certified..

yes, it is 'self-certification' to a degree... a lot of it depends on professional conduct and reputation.


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## joebre (28 Nov 2008)

These transitional arrangements can be confusing. Iam trying to these these clear in my own head, as well.

The OP said that planning was applied for after 1st January 2007. So a BER cert is required. If we know that the building was substantially complete by 30th of June 2008, then the 2005 Regs apply.

Is my summary right?


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## sydthebeat (28 Nov 2008)

joebre said:


> These transitional arrangements can be confusing. Iam trying to these these clear in my own head, as well.
> 
> The OP said that planning was applied for after 1st January 2007. So a BER cert is required. If we know that the building was substantially complete by 30th of June 2008, then the 2005 Regs apply.
> 
> Is my summary right?


 
technically yes,... but just to confuse...

say the application was made 2 jan 2007....
the OP has until 30 june *2009 *to get substantially complete before 2007 regs kick in.


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## joebre (28 Nov 2008)

sydthebeat,

I know you post regularly in regard to Ber !

Was the 30th June 2008 deadline extended for a year until 2009, before 2007 Regs kick in.

I am assessing a number of 07/early 08 planning applications. These have until June 09 before 2007 Regs kick in ?


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## sydthebeat (28 Nov 2008)

joebre said:


> sydthebeat,
> 
> I know you post regularly in regard to Ber !
> 
> ...


 
Basically, YES..... if they applied for permission before 1st july 2008.. they have until 30 june 2009 to have the dwelling substantially complete before 2007 regs kick in....

joe... 
you need to differentiate between part L and BER.

The last date for every house to be exempt from BERs (applied for before 1st jan 2007) was 30 june 2008. any house not substantially complete by that date requires a BER...

any house not substantially complete before 30 june 2009 is required to comply with 2007 part L.


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## joebre (28 Nov 2008)

Thanks sydthebeat for the clarification. I did not know the different dates between Part L and BER.

Could I ask you about the glut of unsold new houses across the country. While many of them are fully completed, will they require a BER when they are sold next year. Some houses in my estate were built under a 2003 permission. What will they be assesed under next January.  New build or existing ?


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## sydthebeat (28 Nov 2008)

joebre said:


> Thanks sydthebeat for the clarification. I did not know the different dates between Part L and BER.
> 
> Could I ask you about the glut of unsold new houses across the country. *While many of them are fully completed, will they require a BER when they are sold next year.* Some houses in my estate were built under a 2003 permission. What will they be assesed under next January. New build or existing ?


 

Yes they will.....

a BER is required on any dwelling 'offered for sale or rent' after 01 - 01 -09

they will be assessed as existing dwellings...


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