# Lose and loose



## Diziet (31 Jul 2009)

It is not often I have the need to Let Off Steam. However, I have lost count of posts from otherwise (I assume) reasonably literate people using 'loose' instead of 'lose'. And I am afraid I have to struggle to take whatever is written seriously at that point.

Dictionary definition for 'loose':
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/loose

... and for 'lose':
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lose

Not the same thing, right? I feel so much better now . Don't start me on the grocer's apostrophe.


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## Caveat (31 Jul 2009)

What about the old classic " should of " ?


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## Bill Struth (31 Jul 2009)

"FAO of"


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## Purple (31 Jul 2009)

Bill Struth said:


> "FAO of"




"NCT Test" (National Car Test Test)
"PCB Board" (Printed Circuit Board Board)


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## Graham_07 (31 Jul 2009)

Caveat said:


> What about the old classic " should of " ?


 
I got an email from an insurance broker last year and three times in it he said "...would of thought that.."
Needless to say he did not get the business.


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## mathepac (31 Jul 2009)

"PIN Number" Personal Identification Number
"ATM Machine" Automated Teller Machine
NI and UK ("You mean NI or GB?" "No I mean mainland UK". "But the UK is just a collection of islands, the nearest mainland is Europe" "I should of knowing, but now I'll loose me temper"
Southern Ireland (as in Ireland but not Northern Ireland - even the Brits don't do this anymore, generally)


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## Upstihaggity (31 Jul 2009)

Purple said:


> "NCT Test" (National Car Test Test)
> "PCB Board" (Printed Circuit Board Board)


 

People say PIN number though ......


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## Purple (31 Jul 2009)

mathepac said:


> NI and UK ("You mean NI or GB?" "No I mean mainland UK". "But the UK is just a collection of islands, the nearest mainland is Europe" "I should of knowing, but now I'll loose me temper"


When talking to English suppliers I try to use "mainland" when talking about mainland Europe. As in, 
"I'll be over on the mainland next week"
"Oh, will you get a chance to pop in and see us?"
"No, I won't be in Britain; I'll be on the mainland"
"But this is the mainland"
"No it's not; it's the other small island off the coast of Europe"

I also know I shouldn’t but it bugs the hell out of me as well.


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## Purple (31 Jul 2009)

Upstihaggity said:


> People say PIN number though ......



YEp, they should just say "PIN"


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## dewdrop (31 Jul 2009)

What about the misuse of "principal" and "principle" ?


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## mathepac (31 Jul 2009)

I should of knowing, but are you talking about bank's or school's here?


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## MOB (31 Jul 2009)

DIRT tax.  

Or is that so common that it has gained a degree of acceptability?   

(aside:- how many people would be annoyed by the error if I instead said it had gained a decree of acceptability?   Actually, come to think of it, that error makes a sort of sense too)


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## Graham_07 (31 Jul 2009)

Purple said:


> When talking to English suppliers I try to use "mainland" when talking about mainland Europe. As in,
> "I'll be over on the mainland next week"
> "Oh, will you get a chance to pop in and see us?"
> "No, I won't be in Britain; I'll be on the mainland"
> ...


 

I would always consider "mainland" to mean the large European land mass, never the UK/GB or whatever they want to call it. An island is an island. ( and if you're a Joe fan...."Make me an Island"...... ! where there are no banks/NAMA's taxes or insolvent soccer clubs)


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## Graham_07 (31 Jul 2009)

MOB said:


> DIRT tax.
> 
> Or is that so common that it has gained a degree of acceptability?
> 
> (aside:- how many people would be annoyed by the error if I instead said it had gained a decree of acceptability? Actually, come to think of it, that error makes a sort of sense too)


 
Defo has gained acceptance, I mean, if I asked a farmer " what about the DIRT on your savings" he might get offended thinking that he had unclean bank statements.  ( and believe me that happens too, you would not believe what is sometimes attached to financial records )


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## mathepac (31 Jul 2009)

MOB said:


> ... I instead said it had gained a decree of acceptability?  ...


First you get a decree Absolut, then nicely.


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## Diziet (31 Jul 2009)

Caveat said:


> What about the old classic " should of " ?



That one too. Thank you.


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## Purple (31 Jul 2009)

The one that gets to me most is "pacifically" instead of "specifically".


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## Pique318 (31 Jul 2009)

"Brought" instead of "Bought". Admittedly a problem I've noticed mainly with British people on forums etc., but still a pain.


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## samanthajane (31 Jul 2009)

Graham_07 said:


> I got an email from an insurance broker last year and three times in it he said "...would of thought that.."
> Needless to say he did not get the business.


 

Do you need an english degree to be an insurance broker? 

Please explain further as i'm at a lose of why his english ability had anything to do with giving you insurance.


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## mathepac (31 Jul 2009)

samanthajane said:


> Do you need an english degree to be an insurance broker? ...


I would of taut basic busines's English wouldn't of caused him to loose the busines's.


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## Graham_07 (31 Jul 2009)

samanthajane said:


> Do you need an english degree to be an insurance broker?
> 
> Please explain further as i'm at a lose of why his english ability had anything to do with giving you insurance.






mathepac said:


> I would of taut basic busines's English wouldn't of caused him to loose the busines's.


  Love it. 


We were talking about renewal of a Professional Indemnity Insurance policy. Such policies must be proposed from scratch each year. Insofar as concerns the providers of that cover, all matters relevant to the insured must be correctly and properly disclosed on renewal each and every year. If the agent cannot properly articulate themselves in the provision of the service for their insurer one must question their ability to act on one's behalf in the event of a claim. It's not rocket science. "Have" and "of" have very different meanings in English as I'm sure they do in insurance terms. I'd hate to be trying to say " But I meant..." to an insurance company in the event of a claim.

Incidentally the main reason for not going with this guy was not just his grammar but in addition the way in which he berated me in the email for not giving him a "better chance" to quote lower than his original quote whan another insurer came in lower for the same level of cover. I had asked for his "best quote". The other insurer was significantly less expensive for same risk. I indicated that to him and said that I would be going with the other quote as it provided same cover for less cost. His response, in part, said if I had given him the chance he would have quoted cheaper than the other if I told him what their quote was. Well why didn't he do that in the first place ? His grammar was just the icing on the cake.

( that's his grammar ok not his granpa )


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## Vanilla (31 Jul 2009)

Quiet right, two I say.


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## woodbine (31 Jul 2009)

thanks for the all the good advise in this thread.


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## dave28 (31 Jul 2009)

Isn't their always people who willing to give there opinion ?


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## dave28 (1 Aug 2009)

Also, is "AIB Bank" Allied Irish Bank Bank ?????


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## PMU (1 Aug 2009)

Purple said:


> When talking to English suppliers I try to use "mainland" when talking about mainland Europe. .


 I agree totally.  When I worked on the continent and met a Brit, I'd say something like: "How long have you worked here on the mainland?". Always p*issed them off!


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## liaconn (1 Aug 2009)

I know it's petty, but it irritates me when people say 'euros'. The plural of euro is euro!


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## orka (1 Aug 2009)

liaconn said:


> I know it's petty, but it irritates me when people say 'euros'. The plural of euro is euro!


I am fussy about grammar and punctuation but I say euros. I don't think there is a clearcut right or wrong here - EU legislation uses euro for ease of documentation but the intention was/is for the general public to use their natural plural forms - with an s in the case of english. Plagiarised from a quick search on the subject: 

" Official practice followed in English-language EU legislation is to use the words euro and cent as both singular and plural. This practice originally arose out of legislation intended to ensure that the banknotes were uncluttered with a string of plurals (as the Soviet ruble notes were). 

The English Style Guide of the European Commission Translation Service states: 

12.12 ... Guidelines on the use of the euro, issued via the Secretariat-General, state that the plurals of both ‘euro’ and ‘cent’ are to be written without ‘s’ in English. Do this when amending or referring to legal texts that themselves observe this rule. Elsewhere, and *especially in documents intended for the general public, use the natural plural with ‘s’ for both terms. *

Because the s-less plurals had become "enshrined" in EU legislation, the Commission decided to retain those plurals in English in legislation even while allowing natural plurals in other languages, but the European Commission Translation Service (ECTS) strongly recommends that in all material generated by the Commission intended for the general public, the "natural plurals" of each language be used. 

As the euro was being adopted in the Republic of Ireland, however, the Ministry for Finance decided to use the word euro as both the singular and plural forms of the currency, and because Irish broadcasters took their cue from the Ministry, the "legislative plurals" tend to also be used on the news and in much Irish advertising. This has the effect of reinforcing the s-less plurals, though many advertisers (particularly those in the United Kingdom) prefer the "natural" plurals: euros and cents. (This is in line with ECTS recommendations.) 

Many people in Ireland prefer the -s plurals, and at the time the s-less plurals were introduced, at least some complained that the EU ought not attempt to change English grammar. People who have become accustomed to what they hear on daily television and radio often use the s-less plurals, which they also see written on the notes and coins. While usage in Ireland is disputed, common usage in the rest of the English-speaking world is to use the natural plurals. The media in the UK prefers euros and cents as the plural forms. Broadcasts of currency exchange rates outside the EU tend to use the -s plural; with NPR in the United States and the CBC in Canada being two examples."


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## DrMoriarty (1 Aug 2009)

Now that you say it, that makes alot of cents.


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## mathepac (1 Aug 2009)

orka said:


> ... As the euro was being adopted in the Republic of Ireland, however, the Ministry for Finance decided to use the word euro as both the singular and plural forms of the currency, and because Irish broadcasters took their cue from the Ministry, ...


We don't have a Ministry for Finance in Ireland, we have a Department of Finance.


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## mathepac (1 Aug 2009)

liaconn said:


> ... The plural of euro is euro!


Speaking of plurals (and singulars) -

*Criteria* is plural, singular form is* criterion*, thus "criteria are", "criterion is"
*Data* is plural, the singular form is *datum*
*Media* is plural, the singular is *medium*, thus for example, "the media are paid to manipulate public opinion" rather than  "the media is paid to publish propaganda" 
*Government* is a collective noun, so "the Government are" is grammatically incorrect, broadcasters please note
Similarly *team*, so to say (or write as is often the case these days) "the Irish team are resting" is grammatically incorrect.

Lots of other examples in recent print articles, broadcasts, posts - "the Cabinet are", "the Bank are", "the Dáil are", "the HSE are", "the Board are"

TGITW.


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## Towger (1 Aug 2009)

Heading for a third bailout and so good they have to tell us that they do twice (or trice) : [broken link removed]


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## mathepac (1 Aug 2009)

Towger said:


> ... (or trice) ... [broken link removed]


Thrice? Trice is a rope or what a character in Eastenders calls someone named Theresa.


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## Purple (1 Aug 2009)

On that note the plural of “Attorney General” is “Attorneys General”. Attorney Generals are lawyers who hold a high rank in the armed forces. 

The plural of Octopus is not Octopi, it’s Octopuses.


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## mathepac (1 Aug 2009)

The plural of brother-in-law is brothers-in-law who only become Brothers-in-Arms at Dire Straits concerts or after a feed of drink.


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## Pique318 (2 Aug 2009)

Purple said:


> On that note the plural of “Attorney General” is “Attorneys General”. Attorney Generals are lawyers who hold a high rank in the armed forces.
> 
> The plural of Octopus is not Octopi, it’s Octopuses.



Ahem...


			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> The *octopus* (pronounced /ˈɒktəpʊs/, from Greek ὀκτάπους (_oktapous_), "eight-footed",with plural forms: *octopuses* /ˈɒktəpʊsɪz/, *octopi* /ˈɒktəpaɪ/, or *octopodes* /ɒkˈtɒpədiːz/


And even Stephen Fry himself (He Who Is Not To Be Questioned) said on QI that Octopuses and Octopodes are valid.

Jury obviously still out on that one. Languages do evolve to the 'common parlance' however, not that it's always a good thing....


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## ollie323 (2 Aug 2009)

I'll quote mathepac as an example here. (only an example btw!)


mathepac said:


> *Criteria* is plural,.......
> *Data* is plural, ..........
> *Media* is plural,



Whenever i hear people say words like these they say "Criterior is plural" or "Dator is plural" or Medior is plural"
Other examples of this poor grammar that i often hear are: 
"Vannilor ice cream"
Then there's the classic song "Brim full of asher" or is it "Brim full of asha"???

There was recently a pic of Rod Stewart on holiday with his family in a tabloid. He had his kids toy dinosaur in his hand and it was supposed to be biting his wifes bum. Anyway, the headline was "I don't think she saurus"
AARRRGGHH!!
It's bloody annoying!
Can somebody trained in grammar please explain this?

ollie


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## mathepac (2 Aug 2009)

ollie323 said:


> ... Can somebody trained in grammar please explain this? ...


This used to be an exclusively Sahrf London phenomenon (singular, there's another !), Rod the Mod being a good example, but it seems to have been displaced into the wild since newspapers other than The Sun  and the News of the World went on sale in local newsagents, beside the vodkar that they drink on the sofahr w'ile lookin' at the pictures of Madonnar's latesest  adoption safari in 'Ello magazine or on MTV, know wo' I mean mate, innit?

BTW, We wuz nevah welfy enuff for me to go to grammar school, I went to a pukkah secondary modern mate, wiv a geezah called Kilroy (at least 'is name wuz on the toilet walls) ja know wo' I mean mate, awright, innit?


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## Caveat (2 Aug 2009)

liaconn said:


> I know it's petty, but it irritates me when people say 'euros'.



I agree.  It's just grating. Whether it is officially acceptable or not, to me it sounds as bad as 'yens' or 'liras'.


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## Graham_07 (2 Aug 2009)

Purple said:


> The plural of Octopus is not Octopi, it’s Octopuses.


 
If the plural of hippopotamus is hippopotami then what's the plural of whataclotamus .....?


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## june (2 Aug 2009)

*What is the difference between stationary and stationery?*
_Stationary means 'fixed in one place and not moving' while_
_stationery means 'the paper and envelopes used for writing correspondence'_

This one bugs the hell out of me. I can't believe the amount of places that sell "stationary"


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## PMU (2 Aug 2009)

ollie323 said:


> Then there's the classic song "Brim full of asher" or is it "Brim full of asha"???


  Neither. It's "Brimful of Asha".
*
*


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## ollie323 (3 Aug 2009)

PMU said:


> Neither. It's "Brimful of Asha".


Oh the irony! There's me moaning about bad grammar while using bad grammar!

Mathepac, you have that eastenders accent down pat! In any case, that "r" thing has spread and i hear people using it all over the place. Even my 2 year olds use it from time to time. They're picking it up in creche from the "cool" 20 something people that work there. It's unstoppable i tell ya!

Anyway, in relation to the original topic, grammar is getting worse. I partly blame spell check, although it is handy from time to time. Education cutbacks certainly aren't going to help though are they?

ollie


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## mathepac (3 Aug 2009)

ollie323 said:


> ... Even my 2 year olds use it from time to time...


Next time it happens, tell them they're grounded for two weeks - no nightclubs, sleep-overs or recreational drugs; that'll fix their grammar for them.


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## dewdrop (3 Aug 2009)

Is there a certain type of person who gets all worked up about grammar?


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## Diziet (3 Aug 2009)

dewdrop said:


> Is there a certain type of person who gets all worked up about grammar?



An educated person per chance?


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## Graham_07 (3 Aug 2009)

june said:


> *What is the difference between stationary and stationery?*
> _Stationary means 'fixed in one place and not moving' while_
> _stationery means 'the paper and envelopes used for writing correspondence'_
> 
> This one bugs the hell out of me. I can't believe the amount of places that sell "stationary"


 

But given the nature of the item, isn't stationery, stationary until someone picks it up ?


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## Purple (4 Aug 2009)

Pique318 said:


> Ahem...
> 
> And even Stephen Fry himself (He Who Is Not To Be Questioned) said on QI that Octopuses and Octopodes are valid.
> 
> Jury obviously still out on that one. Languages do evolve to the 'common parlance' however, not that it's always a good thing....



Octopus is a Greek word, or a Latinised greek work . If it was Latin it would be Octopi but it’s not so Octopuses (or, I suppose, Octopodes (spelling?)) is correct.


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## Teatime (4 Aug 2009)

Diziet said:


> An educated person per chance?


 
True. The 'lose'/'loose' one drives me nuts too.


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## TarfHead (4 Aug 2009)

mathepac said:


> Southern Ireland (as in Ireland but not Northern Ireland - even the Brits don't do this anymore, generally)


 
That one usually does it for me - people referring to this country as some geographical abstraction.

The wife of a mate of mine is from Belfast and refers to their holiday home in Co. Donegal as being in The South (or Sythe as she pronounces it ). The actual location of the house is, geographically, further north that anywhere in the North, so how somewhere north of The North can be referred to as The Sythe is beyond me  !


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## dewdrop (4 Aug 2009)

all quite on the western front!


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## AgathaC (4 Aug 2009)

Teatime said:


> True. The 'lose'/'loose' one drives me nuts too.


 My personal favourites are the signs you see in shops etc apologising for the 'inconvience' and a close second is definitely 'definately'!!


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## callybags (4 Aug 2009)

how do you pronounce "fonetik"?


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## Caveat (4 Aug 2009)

callybags said:


> how do you pronounce "fonetik"?


 
Telecommunication device transmittable skin parasite?


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## Raskolnikov (4 Aug 2009)

My favourite is *virii *and *viruses*.

As far as I know, virii is not a recognised word, yet it's often used in computer terminology.


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## ollie323 (4 Aug 2009)

When builders refer to "Joycing" i picture them up in the rafters reading Ulysses. I think they mean Joisting, ie: to put up joists.........

I think you're right Mathepac, i'll have to start pulling the plug on something like ben 10, or should that be ben ten???


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## LouisLaLoope (5 Aug 2009)

It's random apostrophes that get me.  People throw them in all over the shop.  Why?!!!!

As for octopi, I like that word.  We should really use it more often.  Octopi with all their tenticli.


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## Pique318 (5 Aug 2009)

I tend to have the Homer Simpson-esque image of 8 pies in mind when I hear the word 'Octopi'.

Mmmm......pies.


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## dewdrop (6 Aug 2009)

What makes me cringe at the moment are "the green shoots etc and Ireland Inc.


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## mathepac (6 Aug 2009)

AgathaC said:


> My personal favourites are the signs you see in shops etc apologising for the 'inconvience' ...


At least they weren't apologising for the "incontinence". 

One of my favourites of all time was a nicely laminated sign in local shop's pastry section which requested customers to *"Please use thong's to handle bun's"*. Not even on Craggy Island...


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## becky (6 Aug 2009)

mathepac said:


> at least they weren't apologising for the "incontinence".
> 
> One of my favourites of all time was a nicely laminated sign in local shop's pastry section which requested customers to *"please use thong's to handle bun's"*. Not even on craggy island...


 
lol


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## AgathaC (6 Aug 2009)

mathepac said:


> One of my favourites of all time was a nicely laminated sign in local shop's pastry section which requested customers to *"Please use thong's to handle bun's"*. Not even on Craggy Island...


 Excellent!


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## buyingabroad (6 Aug 2009)

_Its_ frustrating when I read things such as '_it's_ experience includes abc...'   90% of the population get this wrong so much so I even question myself at times


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## AgathaC (12 Aug 2009)

Another one-affect and effect!


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## Caveat (12 Aug 2009)

I've probably said it before but there is (or at least was) a mobile phone shop in Kells, Co Meath with the proudly displayed sign: _Now Your Talking._

Also _The Phoenix_ pub in Park St, Dundalk has two signs and one of them says _Pheonix._

Typing on a forum is one thing but professionally made signs?!


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## Celtwytch (12 Aug 2009)

I was at the Horse Show at the weekend, and there was something on sale there that would help a person to "breath more easily", according to the beautiful, professionally-printed sign


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## liaconn (12 Aug 2009)

There is a box of mint humbug's sitting on the table in front of me as I type this. Its emblazoned in huge letters across the side of the box.


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## Sue Ellen (12 Aug 2009)

I'm always quoting this one on AAM about a shop along the quays in Dublin some years ago who had a large awning spread across the width of the shop with very large lettering A C C O M O D A T I O N.  I can't understand why when someone is going to make something like this that they wouldn't check the spelling.

I've also seen many headstones with incorrect spelling.  Not too easy to correct those.


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## Celtwytch (12 Aug 2009)

Oh, and I forgot about the hardware shop down the road that went to the trouble of having a neon sign made that announces _*key's cut.*_


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## QED (12 Aug 2009)

Celtwytch said:


> Oh, and I forgot about the hardware shop down the road that went to the trouble of having a neon sign made that announces _*key's cut.*_


 

Maybe the key was cut !!


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## samanthajane (12 Aug 2009)

Gonna sound really dumb here but i dont get the key's cut one? 

Haven't actually got many of them to be honest. Every sentance i write has something wrong with it. Englsih grammer and spelling is not my strong point!


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## Graham_07 (12 Aug 2009)

I think errant apostrophes are the problem . There's a shop in Lanzarote called Candles' . It sells, yes candles. But where or why is the need for the ' at the end ? I long to jump up and pull it down some night or report it to this crowd


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## Celtwytch (12 Aug 2009)

samanthajane said:


> Gonna sound really dumb here but i dont get the key's cut one?


 
You don't use an apostrophe in plurals.


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## samanthajane (12 Aug 2009)

oops at you poor people having to read my posts. Does that rule apply for everything? I've always remember the i before e but not after c rule. What the rule for words changing from y to ies?

Is there a website anywhere that can tell you the basic dos ( i want to put a ' between the o and the s ) and donts when it comes to grammer? 

Usually I can get away with my spelling by googling it, but it doesn't help wth my grammer. How i ever got a C+ in english i'll never know. Think they felt sorry for me.

Edit: I really should look at links before i reply. That one graham 07 put up is very good, have you got any more like that?


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## Graham_07 (12 Aug 2009)

With apostrophes and the letter S I think a lot of people get confused over the possessive as in "John's dog" or "James' dog" and also with contractions as in "There's a cheap holiday on the paper" for "There is".


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## Sunny (12 Aug 2009)

Graham_07 said:


> With apostrophes and the letter S I think a lot of people get confused over the possessive as in "John's dog" or "James' dog" and also with contractions as in "There's a cheap holiday on the paper" for "There is".


 
I hate it when people say there is a cheap holiday 'on the paper' instead of 'in the paper'.


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## Sunny (12 Aug 2009)

samanthajane said:


> oops at you poor people having to read my posts. Does that rule apply for everything? I've always remember the i before e but not after c rule.


 
Hate to wreck your buzz but they have actually don't teach the 'i' before 'e' rule anymore because there were way too many exceptions. It was a nice rhyme but that was about it!


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## Graham_07 (12 Aug 2009)

Sunny said:


> I hate it when people say there is a cheap holiday 'on the paper' instead of 'in the paper'.


 
Could be worse, could have said "holidays going cheap" when we all know only birds go cheap or is that cheep !


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## Caveat (12 Aug 2009)

Sunny said:


> I hate it when people say there is a cheap holiday 'on the paper' instead of 'in the paper'.


 
I hate both.

I usually say "There appears to be the option of a restful excursion at less than prohibitive costs according to this journal or periodical"


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## samanthajane (12 Aug 2009)

Sunny said:


> Hate to wreck your buzz but they have actually don't teach the 'i' before 'e' rule anymore because there were way too many exceptions. It was a nice rhyme but that was about it!


 

Maybe thats why my spelling is still so bad lol cause I always use that rule. Typical the only one that i did remember is the one that doesn't really help me.


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## Graham_07 (12 Aug 2009)

Caveat said:


> I hate both.
> 
> I usually say "There appears to be the option of a restful excursion at less than prohibitive costs according to this journal or periodical"


 

You must have learned that from the great


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## Seagull (12 Aug 2009)

One that's been appearing quite a lot recently is people complaining about "wreckless" driving. I always thought that was a key objective when driving.


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## LouisLaLoope (12 Aug 2009)

Seagull said:


> One that's been appearing quite a lot recently is people complaining about "wreckless" driving. I always thought that was a key objective when driving.


 
OMG!  I used the word "wreckless" the other day!  I never even noticed.

I hang my head in shame....


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## Protocol (12 Aug 2009)

Yes, I must admit that I was shocked by "wreckless".

The correct  spelling is "reckless".

AAM has a good standard of spelling, while I find www.boards.ie to be poor.

"it's" and "its" is a tricky one.

Confusion between "effect" and "affect" is common.  When I tell people that effect is a noun, and affect is a verb, I don't really think that helps.

I still don't know the rules for "that" and "which".


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## AgathaC (12 Aug 2009)

Sunny said:


> Hate to wreck your buzz but they have actually don't teach the 'i' before 'e' rule anymore because there were way too many exceptions. It was a nice rhyme but that was about it!


 I dont understand this post, can you explain please? Are you saying that 'i before e except after c' is no longer applicable??


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## AgathaC (12 Aug 2009)

Another favourite-defuse and diffuse..


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## Caveat (13 Aug 2009)

AgathaC said:


> I dont understand this post, can you explain please? Are you saying that 'i before e except after c' is no longer applicable??



It never was completely anyway:

science, ancient, weird, vein... + many more

It was only ever a rough, general rule. Too many fairly common exceptions.

Grammar conventions have changed even in the last 20 or 30 years - for example, for my father's generation, it was a big 'no no' to use _can_ for permission: "Can I eat this?" as a kid, the answer I always got was "Well I'm sure you *can*, but if you are asking permission, then yes, you *may*" (usually delivered with a smug smirk)

However most authoritative grammar texts these days will list _can_, for permission, as legitimate, acceptable usage.

Maybe 'I before E' is simply now, after consideration, regarded as confusing and ultimately unhelpful?


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## Sunny (13 Aug 2009)

AgathaC said:


> I dont understand this post, can you explain please? Are you saying that 'i before e except after c' is no longer applicable??


 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/8110573.stm

As the poster above points out, there are simply too many exceptions. I actually think it is one of the easier to remember rules so was sad to hear it but I was shocked when I started to list all the exceptions and seen how many there were. Made the rule sound silly then. 

I suppose as a very general fun for young kids, it might have some merit but it is strange how so many of us seem to have carried the rhyme with us into adulthood!


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## AgathaC (13 Aug 2009)

Caveat said:


> Grammar conventions have changed even in the last 20 or 30 years - for example, for my father's generation, it was a big 'no no' to use _can_ for permission: "Can I eat this?" as a kid, the answer I always got was "Well I'm sure you *can*, but if you are asking permission, then yes, you *may*" (usually delivered with a smug smirk)
> 
> However most authoritative grammar texts these days will list _can_, for permission, as legitimate, acceptable usage.
> 
> ...


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## Nutso (13 Aug 2009)

Caveat said:


> Grammar conventions have changed even in the last 20 or 30 years - for example, for my father's generation, it was a big 'no no' to use _can_ for permission: "Can I eat this?" as a kid, the answer I always got was "Well I'm sure you *can*, but if you are asking permission, then yes, you *may*" (usually delivered with a smug smirk)
> quote]
> 
> This used to happen in my house as well, brought back a few memories!


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## Vanilla (13 Aug 2009)

Caveat said:


> Grammar conventions have changed even in the last 20 or 30 years - for example, for my father's generation, it was a big 'no no' to use _can_ for permission: "Can I eat this?" as a kid, the answer I always got was "Well I'm sure you *can*, but if you are asking permission, then yes, you *may*" (usually delivered with a smug smirk)


 

Yep, that was a big no-no in our house too. To this day when I phone someone I ask 'May I ' speak to so and so. 

My english teacher used to hate the use of 'lots of' instead of, for eg, many so that's another one I still instinctively avoid.


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## orka (13 Aug 2009)

Protocol said:


> Confusion between "effect" and "affect" is common. When I tell people that effect is a noun, and affect is a verb, I don't really think that helps.


Maybe because effect is also a verb....


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## Protocol (13 Aug 2009)

Please give me an example..........


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## callybags (13 Aug 2009)

This thread has effected a great debate.


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## Protocol (13 Aug 2009)

OK, but most uses are as a noun:

*ef⋅fect*  /ɪˈfɛkt/ [broken link removed] Show Spelled Pronunciation [i-*fekt*] [broken link removed] Show IPA 

Use *effect* in a Sentence

*–noun *1.something that is produced by an agency or cause; result; consequence: _Exposure to the sun had the effect of toughening his skin._
2.power to produce results; efficacy; force; validity; influence: _His protest had no effect._
3.the state of being effective or operative; operation or execution; accomplishment or fulfillment: _to bring a plan into effect._
4.a mental or emotional impression produced, as by a painting or a speech.
5.meaning or sense; purpose or intention: _She disapproved of the proposal and wrote to that effect._
6.the making of a desired impression: _We had the feeling that the big, expensive car was only for effect._
7.an illusory phenomenon: _a three-dimensional effect._
8.a real phenomenon (usually named for its discoverer): _the Doppler effect._
9.[broken link removed] 

*–verb (used with object)*
10.to produce as an effect; bring about; accomplish; make happen: _The new machines finally effected the transition to computerized accounting last spring. _

*—Idioms*
11.*in effect, *a.for practical purposes; virtually: _His silence was in effect a confirmation of the rumor. _b.essentially; basically.c.operating or functioning; in force: _The plan is now in effect. _12.*take effect, *a.to go into operation; begin to function.b.to produce a result: _The prescribed medicine failed to take effect. _


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## so-crates (13 Aug 2009)

Saw one today that made me smile, it has turned up on this board more than once generally in relation to houses or cars... where people are describing them as "deprecating" assets  I have a vision of a rather snooty car running you down (in both the literal and the figurative sense!)


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## csirl (13 Aug 2009)

TarfHead said:


> That one usually does it for me - people referring to this country as some geographical abstraction.
> 
> The wife of a mate of mine is from Belfast and refers to their holiday home in Co. Donegal as being in The South (or Sythe as she pronounces it ). The actual location of the house is, geographically, further north that anywhere in the North, so how somewhere north of The North can be referred to as The Sythe is beyond me  !


 

Maybe she got geography lessons from the Donegal people themselves - they seem to think that they live in the southern half of Ireland - always talking about going UP to Dublin.


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## orka (13 Aug 2009)

Protocol said:


> OK, but most uses are as a noun:
> ......


I don’t disagree – just pointing out that you may be confusing your friends by telling them that effect is a noun and affect is a verb.  They may look at callybags’ example, assume her spelling is incorrect and conclude that we are all affecting a great debate here.  And perhaps we are….


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## mathepac (13 Aug 2009)

csirl said:


> ... always talking about going UP to Dublin.


By polite convention, one always travels UP to the capital, irrespective of one's geographical starting location relative to it. Hence, one always travels down to Cork, unless one has the misfortune to be from Cork, in which case one *might* travel DOWN to Dublin


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## Caveat (13 Aug 2009)

mathepac said:


> By polite convention, one always travels UP to the capital, irrespective of one's geographical starting location relative to it.


 
Was just going to post this.  It's a common enough convention in other countries too AFAIK.


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## Graham_07 (13 Aug 2009)

mathepac said:


> By polite convention, one always travels UP to the capital, irrespective of one's geographical starting location relative to it. Hence, one always travels down to Cork, unless one has the misfortune to be from Cork, in which case one *might* travel DOWN to Dublin


 

So everyone from Dublin travels UP to Cork. Finally, glad we sorted that one out .


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## mathepac (13 Aug 2009)

Graham_07 said:


> So everyone from Dublin travels UP to Cork. Finally, glad we sorted that one out .


That may be Cork-centric logic, but one has always regarded trips outside the Pale to be rather down-market, not to put too fine a point on it.


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## Purple (13 Aug 2009)

Graham_07 said:


> So everyone from Dublin travels UP to Cork.


Why would they do that, other than to recover stolen goods.


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## Graham_07 (13 Aug 2009)

Purple said:


> Why would they do that, other than to recover stolen goods.


 
Or possibly sometimes to take a look at [broken link removed], ( on his occasional sojourns outside Kilkenny) since they're never likely to see him much within the Pale.


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## Betsy Og (13 Aug 2009)

Geographic directions, if that's even the correct phrase, have equivalents in conversational english i.e. 

up north (it's grim up north i'nt it) 
down south (way down in Alabama) 
back weshht 
over east

In my childhood I recall people using "heather" as a direction - I think it was some ultra rural derivation or mispronunciation of "hither" now that I think about it, but a line might have gone "After he cut the meadow he was supposed to come heather and leave the tractor ....... ". 

For some reason I always hear the Deliverance banjo tune when reminiscing about those days  !


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## MandaC (15 Aug 2009)

My pet hate is of instead of have.....I should of, or he could of(whatever)
Stop doing that!!!

I think people get into habits and it gets really hard to break.  One girl I know did a big poster mentioning lots of prises!  She just can't spell to save her life.  The poster went around the whole company.  The guy who won first prise was having a conversation with me and said, did you see I won first prise,  with an s.  The way he said it was hilarious.  Wonder why she did not do a spell check (or would it have come up?)


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## liaconn (15 Aug 2009)

There's a big notice the size of the whole window in a shop in Terenure announcing that they are 'transfering' to new premises.

I used to work with a woman who always said 'it's wrote on the file', 'it's wrote in the book'. Really started to grate after a while.


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## Sue Ellen (15 Aug 2009)

Has anyone else seen the large sign at the left hand side of the Cherry Tree pub at Walkinstown roundabout which reads:

Your pub

Your welcome.


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## MandaC (15 Aug 2009)

Or my favourite sign of all time which was outside a house near Enfield selling Leather Suites of furniture "Lather suits"


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## QED (17 Aug 2009)

All this talk of signs has reminded me of an old joke / riddle that I once heard.

Q. How can you have a correct scentence with the word 'and' used correctly 5 times in a row?


A. There is a shopkeeper getting a new sign above his door. The name of the Shop is 'Murphy and Sons'. The signwriter has just finished painting on the writing and asks the shopkeeper to come out and check that the sign is ok.

The shopkeeper looks up at the sign and says 'It's very nice but I would like a bigger space between Murphy and and, and and and Sons.'


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## Protocol (17 Aug 2009)

The overuse and misuse of apostrophes annoys me.

Here is an example from a current thread:

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=119857

See post number 1.


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## Celtwytch (17 Aug 2009)

MandaC said:


> I won first prise, with an s. The way he said it was hilarious. Wonder why she did not do a spell check (or would it have come up?)


 
Since _prise _is a valid word itself, the spellchecker wouldn't have been much help.  A human proof-reader might have been a good idea, though!


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## AgathaC (17 Aug 2009)

MandaC said:


> Or my favourite sign of all time which was outside a house near Enfield selling Leather Suites of furniture "Lather suits"


 Yes, I remember that sign! I saw an ad on the paper today and the seller of the goods advertised will 'except' payment by credit card etc.


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## so-crates (19 Aug 2009)

Caveat said:


> Was just going to post this. It's a common enough convention in other countries too AFAIK.


 
It appears in railway conventions too - certainly in England, the "Up" road is going towards London and the "Down" road away from.


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## Protocol (24 Aug 2009)

Here is another one, from a thread started today:



Query: would it be in bad form for me to post a reply pointing out the two errant apostrophes?


What's more worrying is that the question refers to graduate medicine!!


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## so-crates (24 Aug 2009)

Protocol said:


> Here is another one, from a thread started today:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Only if you point out your own errant spelling


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## so-crates (24 Aug 2009)

Another pet hate in another thread started today, "shud" instead of "should". Combined with a general disregard for sentence structure, an absence of capitalised first letters, missing words in the sentence and nonsensical punctuation this screams the dreaded txtspk. It is simply bad manners to be so careless about written communiqué, especially if you are asking a question.


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## Protocol (24 Aug 2009)

Fair play, you got me on that.


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## TarfHead (24 Aug 2009)

Many times, I have heard people say '_to all intensive purposes_' instead of '_to all intents and purposes_'.

Each time I'm tempted to ask '_.. and what is an intensive purpose ?_', but resist the temptation .


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