# irish REIT,s



## galway_blow_in (16 Aug 2015)

ive been looking up some info on the various REIT,s available in Ireland , Hibernia , green , irish life etc

was looking on the Zurich website and while the information re_ holdings etc is very comprehensive , I cant find anything in relation to yield , does anyone know what kind of percentage we are talking about

I was invested in an American REIT ( omega healthcare investors ) which caters for retirement homes for a few years , dividend was 5% , do any of the irish ones come close to this figure ?


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## Sarenco (16 Aug 2015)

http://investorrelations.iresreit.i...IR/presentations/i-res-report-apr2-1100am.pdf

Recently published financial statements for iRes REIT attached.  Apparently, the company's initial portfolio is producing a net yield of 5%.


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## galway_blow_in (16 Aug 2015)

Sarenco said:


> http://investorrelations.iresreit.i...IR/presentations/i-res-report-apr2-1100am.pdf
> 
> Recently published financial statements for iRes REIT attached.  Apparently, the company's initial portfolio is producing a net yield of 5%.



thanks sarenco , they appear to be focused on residential entirely , I have not heard of IRES before

its a good yield , I would say a better bet than buying an apartment outright in Dublin today when you consider the potential problems of difficult tenants etc


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## Sarenco (16 Aug 2015)

Yes, iRes is entirely focused on residential apartments (its promoter and major shareholder is CAPREIT - Canadian Apartment Properties REIT).

Bear in mind that the 5% yield refers to the net yield on the initial underlying portfolio - it's not the trailing yield on the company's shares.  The IPO was completed in April 2014 so up until relatively recently the proceeds of the IPO and additional borrowings were not fully invested.  I suspect the dividend yield for 2015 as a whole will be less than 4%, once provision is made for reserves and company expenses.

Green and Hibernia both have substantial amounts of development projects on their books so are probably not ideal vehicles if you are solely focused on income.

There are advantages and disadvantages to REITs (or any securitised property vehicles) as against directly held property.  REITs are certainly far more passive as an investment, although you're obviously reliant on the company's management to achieve results.  REITs also reflect a far more diversified portfolio than an individual investor can easily achieve and you would expect a large portfolio to achieve some efficiencies of scale.  As against that, it is usually possible to leverage directly held property much more cheaply (although this is not necessarily the case in Ireland at the moment) and an individual can make his own decisions about whether or when to add value to a property by way of renovations, etc.

However, in general I agree with you that in most cases, REITs represent a far better way for most retail investors to gain exposure to a particular property market.


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## galway_blow_in (16 Aug 2015)

Sarenco said:


> Yes, iRes is entirely focused on residential apartments (its promoter and major shareholder is CAPREIT - Canadian Apartment Properties REIT).
> 
> Bear in mind that the 5% yield refers to the net yield on the initial underlying portfolio - it's not the trailing yield on the company's shares.  The IPO was completed in April 2014 so up until relatively recently the proceeds of the IPO and additional borrowings were not fully invested.  I suspect the dividend yield for 2015 as a whole will be less than 4%, once provision is made for reserves and company expenses.
> 
> ...




less than 4%

that's one to cross off the list so


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## Sarenco (16 Aug 2015)

Well, 4% is only a very rough estimate on my part based on its current share price and the net yield on the underlying portfolio.

A 4% dividend yield would actually be pretty high - most of the large UK REITs have a trailing yield of less than 3% at this stage.

If you are particularly focused on income (for whatever reason), then I suggest you look at some of the investment trusts in the UK income sector (City of London, Merchants, Murray Income, etc.).  However, I really don't think you will do much better than a 4% yield in this environment on any diversified portfolio without going way out on the risk curve.  Stretching for yield is rarely a good idea.


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## galway_blow_in (16 Aug 2015)

Sarenco said:


> Well, 4% is only a very rough estimate on my part based on its current share price and the net yield on the underlying portfolio.
> 
> A 4% dividend yield would actually be pretty high - most of the large UK REITs have a trailing yield of less than 3% at this stage.
> 
> If you are particularly focused on income (for whatever reason), then I suggest you look at some of the investment trusts in the UK income sector (City of London, Merchants, Murray Income, etc.).  However, I really don't think you will do much better than a 4% yield in this environment on any diversified portfolio without going way out on the risk curve.  Stretching for yield is rarely a good idea.




well certain energy companies are paying above 6% yield at the moment due to the unprecedented changes in the energy market this past few years

I wouldn't expect a REIT to match the yield from outright owning a BTL but it should be more than 50% IMO


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## Sarenco (16 Aug 2015)

The reason energy stocks pay such a high dividend relative to other stocks is because they are extremely volatile (and have tanked in recent months).  There is an immutable relationship between risk and reward that you seem to be ignoring.

IRes owns hundreds of apartments across Dublin and the portfolio as a whole produces a net yield of 5%.  I would be absolutely stunned if you could find an apartment anywhere in Dublin that could reliably produce a net yield of anywhere close to 10% without cheating on your calculations.


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## galway_blow_in (16 Aug 2015)

Sarenco said:


> The reason energy stocks pay such a high dividend relative to other stocks is because they are extremely volatile (and have tanked in recent months).  There is an immutable relationship between risk and reward that you seem to be ignoring.
> 
> IRes owns hundreds of apartments across Dublin and the portfolio as a whole produces a net yield of 5%.  I would be absolutely stunned if you could find an apartment anywhere in Dublin that could reliably produce a net yield of anywhere close to 10% without cheating on your calculations.



thank you , im well aware that most energy stocks are priced at near multi year lows , energy stocks are not traditionally extremely volatile , I would say they are no more volatile than financials traditionally , at least not the super majors , the current situation with new sources of energy is unprecedented and near revolutionary

the need for oil is unlikely to disappear completely however


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## Sarenco (16 Aug 2015)

Energy stocks (and financials for that matter) have a much higher beta than the wider market.  But, hey, if that's where you want to put your hard-earned money then fire ahead...


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## galway_blow_in (16 Aug 2015)

Sarenco said:


> Energy stocks (and financials for that matter) have a much higher beta than the wider market.  But, hey, if that's where you want to put your hard-earned money then fire ahead...



according to yahoo finance , exxon mobil has a beta of .99 , proctor and gamble has a beta of .98

I doubt proctor and gamble is viewed as a high risk stock

anyway I fully realise that those energy companies have high yields currently due to the very significant reduction in their share price , I don't agree that this indicates they are highly volatile stocks though , its just good ol cause and effect

oil has collapsed in price , hence the companies who trade this commodity are in the toilet , I think they will only stay down for another year or so however , huge companies rarely stay down for several years on the trot and some of the super majors are priced where they were ten years ago


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## galway_blow_in (16 Aug 2015)

Sarenco said:


> The reason energy stocks pay such a high dividend relative to other stocks is because they are extremely volatile (and have tanked in recent months).  There is an immutable relationship between risk and reward that you seem to be ignoring.
> 
> IRes owns hundreds of apartments across Dublin and the portfolio as a whole produces a net yield of 5%.  I would be absolutely stunned if you could find an apartment anywhere in Dublin that could reliably produce a net yield of anywhere close to 10% without cheating on your calculations.



hey , if I thought I could collect 5% NET from investing on that REIT , id be happy enough to invest some in that space  , I thought you said it was likely to be  below 4% however ?


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## Sarenco (16 Aug 2015)

galway_blow_in said:


> according to yahoo finance , exxon mobil has a beta of .99 , proctor and gamble has a beta of .98
> 
> I doubt proctor and gamble is viewed as a high risk stock
> 
> ...



Last time I checked Exxon Mobile had a trailing yield of around 3.5% so it's hardly a typical high-yielding energy stocks.  Look, if you want to invest in energy stocks yielding 6% that's your call but you're fooling yourself if you don't think that's a very high risk investment.


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## Sarenco (16 Aug 2015)

galway_blow_in said:


> hey , if I thought I could collect 5% NET from investing on that REIT , id be happy enough to invest some in that space  , I thought you said it was likely to be  below 4% however ?



I said I suspected iRes would yield less than 4% for 2015 as a whole but its portfolio yield (ie the net yield on its underlying investments) was 5% as per its most recent financial statements.  I'm certainly not touting it as an investment if that's what you're suggesting.


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## galway_blow_in (17 Aug 2015)

Sarenco said:


> Last time I checked Exxon Mobile had a trailing yield of around 3.5% so it's hardly a typical high-yielding energy stocks.  Look, if you want to invest in energy stocks yielding 6% that's your call but you're fooling yourself if you don't think that's a very high risk investment.



I still disagree with your thesis that high yield stocks are by definition " high risk "

AT+T ( T) pays a 5% dividend , as does Vodafone , neither would be considered high risk by any objective measure

energy stocks currently have high yields due to the remarkable drop in there share price , they were not traditionally very high yield in the way utilities often were


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## Sarenco (17 Aug 2015)

Apologies if I was unclear but I am not suggesting that there is a correlation between the yield on a stock and its volatility.  I was simply trying to make the point that energy stocks, in general, are more volatile than the wider market and currently have a high yield because they have tanked in recent months.

To be honest, I have never seen the attractions of dividend stock investing.  Ultimately, total return is all that matters.


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## galway_blow_in (18 Aug 2015)

Sarenco said:


> Apologies if I was unclear but I am not suggesting that there is a correlation between the yield on a stock and its volatility.  I was simply trying to make the point that energy stocks, in general, are more volatile than the wider market and currently have a high yield because they have tanked in recent months.
> 
> To be honest, I have never seen the attractions of dividend stock investing.  Ultimately, total return is all that matters.



over a few decades , dividend paying stocks have outperformed

plus an income is nice , were one sure that none of the main European oil majors were going to go to the wall or cut there dividends entirely , they are a very easy income play right now


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## joe sod (20 Nov 2016)

just thought i would bump this thread back up, considering an investment in irish reits, they have pulled back a bit in the last few months. Are people still generally as optimistic on irish reits as they were last year.


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## johnny1234 (20 Nov 2016)

Joe, Personally, I used to be heavily invested in Irish funds, but when one sees how Management Fees are apportioned in some of the Bank's funds, it really is a case of 'they're looking after themselves'. On saying all of this I'm not saying there is anything untoward going on with the REIT funds, it will take somebody to employ the services of an Actuary to obtain verification. Enough said for a Sunday evening.


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