# Buying from a main dealer - how to check car history?



## smarthinking (16 Jul 2007)

I am about to buy second hand from a main dealer.  Before I buy, how can I find out the name(s) of the previous owner, so that I can call them to verify things like mileage etc?
Also, should I get an independent mechanic to check the car out?


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## z109 (16 Jul 2007)

Yes, get someone independent to check it out. He will be able to tell from the wear on the engine if the mileage is roughly right, and whether the car has any bumps. How I wish I'd done this with mine!


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## Silvergirl (16 Jul 2007)

Heard a company advertise car history checks:
cartel.com - not sure if the spelling is correct.

hth...


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## afitz (17 Jul 2007)

hi, suggest you look up the national consumer agency's website, www.consumerconnect.ie, and download a copy of the booklet they published recently on "buying a car"


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## Cameo (17 Jul 2007)

If you look at the logbook (or whatever the cert is called) of the car I believe it will have the name of at least the last owner (it does in the UK). THen try directory enquiries to get their telephone number. I have done this a coupe of times for UK cars and it has worked out mostly.

Not sure if it is easy to go back more than one owner. 

Documented (ie with receipts) service history is often the best safeguard in my view for authenicating the car.


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## RS2K (17 Jul 2007)

HPI any UK originated car. Check service history thoroughly.


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## Mr2 (17 Jul 2007)

Is there not some sort of privacy issues here. If I traded my car into a garage, in my view that's the end of it. If you rang me I'd tell you where to go. 

Most people here in Ireland are mobile now, alot of land lines are gone so the phone book won't carry that many numbers.


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## sinbadsailor (17 Jul 2007)

Mr2 said:


> Is there not some sort of privacy issues here. If I traded my car into a garage, in my view that's the end of it. If you rang me I'd tell you where to go.



Surely you wouldn't begredge someone a little bit of piece of mind when handing over chunks of cash for 'a' new car. Unless there was a good reason you got rid of it of course, but then again, I'd tell them that too, like, as you said, not your car any more, so why let someone else buy it if it was a bit crappy?


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## Mr2 (17 Jul 2007)

I'd hate that if I traded in my car and somebody bought it, you hear the other person and you know they won't mind the car like you did.

Sometimes your better not knowing what went wrong with a car before. We had a new car, customer had 6 minor faults (new model) in it in his first 6 months and traded it in as he thought it was a "Monday Car".

Sold it to another customer, has it nearly a year now and not one bit of bother. The first customer you ring will hate the car, the second lad says it's great. Same car!!! 

If something goes wrong while you do have a car, that's what a warranty is for. Buy SIMI, main dealer and you be grand, buy cheap and dodgy, you get cheap and dodgy.


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## RS2K (17 Jul 2007)

Mr2 said:


> ....Buy SIMI, main dealer and you be grand, buy cheap and dodgy, you get cheap and dodgy.



If only life were that simple, people thinking of importing wouldn't bother, the sun would shine a lot, and we'd all live in happytown.


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## Mr2 (17 Jul 2007)

Import all you want, dealers don't mind. We won't trade them in, you don't get any warranty over here with them worth talking about and they have nearly all been clocked. 

Again buy cheap and dodgy, you get cheap and dodgy.

You might save in the short term but you pay in the long.


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## Caveat (17 Jul 2007)

AFAIK www.carcheck.ie will provide confirmation of previous ownership as well as a very thorough technical examination.  

Used them before and found them very worthwhile (no connection)


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## RS2K (17 Jul 2007)

Mr2 said:


> Import all you want, dealers don't mind. We won't trade them in, you don't get any warranty over here with them worth talking about and they have nearly all been clocked.
> 
> Again buy cheap and dodgy, you get cheap and dodgy.
> 
> You might save in the short term but you pay in the long.



I've never imported. Never needed to. I'm referring to others.

The trade take UK trade in all the time I understand. With a fsh and HPI check there's no fear of buying a dud, and a STG£10,000 warranty if you are plain unlucky.

Car clocking goes on wholesale. The mileage adjusters are very busy people, even in Ireland


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## ang1170 (17 Jul 2007)

Mr2 said:


> ....and they have nearly all been clocked.


 
Hello? Any evidence of that?

Is there anywhere here offering a guarentee on checking a car's history? Don't think so.

Buying a UK car with FSH and HPI is far, far less risky than buying ANY car in this country.

There are plenty of dodgy people bringing UK cars in, clocking them and selling them on, but if you import yourself and buy from a reliable source and do all the checks, you're much safer than buying here.


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## Mr2 (17 Jul 2007)

The trade do what they like and people who buy from them support them.

SIMI approved,Main dealers don't. We want nothing to do with it. We may take it off you but you'll get nothing for it.

People in Ireland may "adjust" there milage as a customer put it to me once, but it's not illegal. Approved dealers will have nothing to do with them. 

Tried that carcheck.ie, there seems no way of finding out what milage the
car was at when coming into Ireland. Are you able to put up a link to excatly what they gave you back?

We have details of service records in the UK, Warranty work in the U.K, milage it was at when it entered the docks, the last time it was in a dealer in Ireland etc. The above seems fairly basic.


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## Mr2 (17 Jul 2007)

ang1170, what checks are you able to do as a private buyer?


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## Caveat (17 Jul 2007)

Mr2 said:


> Tried that carcheck.ie, there seems no way of finding out what milage the
> car was at when coming into Ireland. Are you able to put up a link to excatly what they gave you back?
> .


 
...not sure what you are getting at exactly. I'm not talking about imports and neither was the OP as far as I can see? Do you mean in the sense that all Irish cars are 'imported'?

I was just recommending Carcheck generally.  When I used them they could confirm the names of the previous owners (Irish cars), date when car first registered...authenticating mileage never came up for me as I had no reason to be suspicious. For me my main reason for using them was the extensive mechanical check.

I'm not sure what other services carcheck can provide but you could ask - Bernard is very approachable. (Prefer not to publish or link to any of my own documents- sorry)


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## Mr2 (17 Jul 2007)

Caveat, that's cool, it was ment towards imported second hand cars.

Fair enought on searching Irish cars.


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## RS2K (17 Jul 2007)

HPI will warranty a UK imports mileage. Up to STG£10,000 if they are mistaken.

Cartell nor Carcheck will not do the same for an Irish car.

Now which would you be happier buying?


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## Mr2 (17 Jul 2007)

Maybe I'm wrong but I didn't see anything about it saying what milage it had when it hit the docks. Nor did it say that it could, it was just saying it could see cars with warranty milage and claims, but the cars coming over here have huge milage and most would not be entitlied to warranty at there milage.

I also just ran a few numbers off the web site, and with all the faults they find in the cars they do check, it leaves around 7% of every 100 cars  or so might be okay. That would leave it a risky business importing one so.

Has anyone used HPI and could show us the detail of the check list?


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## ang1170 (17 Jul 2007)

Mr2 said:


> The trade do what they like and people who buy from them support them.
> 
> SIMI approved,Main dealers don't. We want nothing to do with it. We may take it off you but you'll get nothing for it.
> 
> ...


 
Now I'm really confused. On the one hand you're saying "nearly all UK imports are clocked", and on the other you're saying you can get full information on a UK car.

I was talking about the relative risk between buying a car in the UK (assuming main dealer history and HPI), which I see as low, and the risk of buying ANY second hand car here, regardless of whether it's an import or not, which I'd see as high. 

Obviously though, if you buy a car with history off a main dealer here it's less risky than buying privately or some dodgy dealer.

In my experiance main dealers are happy to give good trade-ins on privately imported UK cars with history for the very reason you state: they have access to records. Hence I can't understand your claims that (a) they won't touch them and (b) they've all been clocked.


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## RS2K (17 Jul 2007)

Mr2 said:


> ...Has anyone used HPI and could show us the detail of the check list?



www.hpicheck.com there's a sample there. It's much the same as cartell only with a mileage verification and warranty of it.


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## RS2K (17 Jul 2007)

I think nobody is under any illusions that generally cleaner, better specced, and lower mileage cars are available abroad.

There are thousands of € to be saved for a cash buyer too. Much bigger choice also.

www.cargiant.co.uk is a good car supermarket. Go check the prices, and  add VRT and costs. Then compare that to what a similar car costs here.


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## Caveat (17 Jul 2007)

smarthinking said:


> I am about to buy second hand from a main dealer. Before I buy, how can I find out the name(s) of the previous owner, so that I can call them to verify things like mileage etc?
> Also, should I get an independent mechanic to check the car out?


 
I suppose in answer to the original question it seems that the general consensus is, if looking in Ireland, yes get the car mechanically checked & mileage verified - which seems to be easily done.

If considering importing, HPI seems to offer at least as much (if not more) security than buying here.

Needless to say the possibility of getting stung is difficult to avoid completely.


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## Mr2 (18 Jul 2007)

ang1170, I'll give you an example of what I mean, we had a fella trying to trade in his english import 130bhp Passat with 66k on the clock.
Full service history etc. Looked good to us. Had all his paper work stamped and dated.

Checked it out and at the moment it entered Ireland 17-10-'05, 72odd on the clock. 

We don't want to trade these in, we can't sell them with any sort of warranty so why would we trade them in?

Customer tells us the same story they have been told, why should a dealer get roasted with it. Up until we got access to this info cars might have been traded in but you bring an English Import car to any dealer today and see how you get on.


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## RS2K (18 Jul 2007)

Mr2 said:


> ang1170, I'll give you an example of what I mean, we had a fella trying to trade in his english import 130bhp Passat with 66k on the clock.
> Full service history etc. Looked good to us. Had all his paper work stamped and dated.
> 
> Checked it out and at the moment it entered Ireland 17-10-'05, 72odd on the clock.
> ...



Proper order. Had the owner had a HPI check done, there would not have been any issue presumably? The guy tried to save STG£40 . What an absolute idiot.


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## ang1170 (18 Jul 2007)

Mr2 said:


> ang1170, I'll give you an example of what I mean, we had a fella trying to trade in his english import 130bhp Passat with 66k on the clock.
> Full service history etc. Looked good to us. Had all his paper work stamped and dated.
> 
> Checked it out and at the moment it entered Ireland 17-10-'05, 72odd on the clock.
> ...


 
I've done it within the last two months (traded a UK import agaist a new car, that is), with no problems.

You're clearly right in this case: why would you get stuck with it? Not sure where you found out about the mileage at time of import and whether it tallied with the service history: maybe the service history was faked? The point is that you can get a HPI check, which will show this up (as will checking with VW service records). 

In other words, you actually have MORE checks you can do with a UK car then with an Irish one. So why do you maintain they're riskier?


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## RS2K (18 Jul 2007)

In my view a UK imported car with FSH and a warranteed HPI check is at least as safe as an equivalant irish car.

It's much better value too chances are.


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## Mr2 (18 Jul 2007)

Two months ago is out dated at this stage. Today is what counts, maybe like I said above people may have gotten away with trading it in in the past but not any more.

If cars are so cheap in England, why did you trade it in and get an Irish car?

A dealer can do more check (esp at docks now) and we are more informed that ever. You as a private individual can't do these checks. 

This man had full car check details, full history (stamped book), owners name's, car was a ringer! 

Alot of people going to get stuck with these cars. If you wouldn't mind, just to see can ang1170 pm me with your chassie number and milage that you traded in your car with. I'll pm you back the details and you post them here minus the full details. Little test you could say, I'm sure you were not caught out but let's just see.


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## ang1170 (18 Jul 2007)

Mr2 said:


> Two months ago is out dated at this stage. Today is what counts, maybe like I said above people may have gotten away with trading it in in the past but not any more.


 
So what's happened in the last two months to cause the sudden change?



Mr2 said:


> If cars are so cheap in England, why did you trade it in and get an Irish car?


 
Simple: I wanted a new car, on which there's no savings if you import.



Mr2 said:


> A dealer can do more check (esp at docks now) and we are more informed that ever. You as a private individual can't do these checks.


 
Maybe not, but I can HPI check any car purchased in the UK. 



Mr2 said:


> This man had full car check details, full history (stamped book), owners name's, car was a ringer!


 
There's no evidence that clocked/ringed cars are any more common in the UK than here, and at the risk of repeating myself, you have more checks you can do in the UK than here.



Mr2 said:


> Alot of people going to get stuck with these cars. If you wouldn't mind, just to see can ang1170 pm me with your chassie number and milage that you traded in your car with. I'll pm you back the details and you post them here minus the full details. Little test you could say, I'm sure you were not caught out but let's just see.


 
I don't have the car anymore, as I traded in in (like I said). I also handed over all the history of the car when I traded it. It was bought from a main dealer in the UK with FSH. It also checked out with HPI, and VIN matched all documentation, so what more can be checked? Are you saying that UK main dealers are less trustworthy than Irish ones? that they'd sell a ringed car?


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## RS2K (18 Jul 2007)

Has an SIMI member ever sold a clocked or cloned car? Just wondering.


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## ButtermilkJa (18 Jul 2007)

RS2K said:


> Has an SIMI member ever sold a clocked or cloned car? Just wondering.


I'd imagine it's happened at least once in the past (whether intentional or not), what would be more interesting is if it is a regular occurance?

By the way, is there anywhere to find a list of all SIMI garages in a particular area? I searched the SIMI site for 'Car Sales & Service' in the 'Dublin' area and it came back saying no results found!!


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## sinbadsailor (18 Jul 2007)

Mr2 said:


> ... Today is what counts, maybe like I said above people may have gotten away with trading it in in the past but not any more. ...



So does that mean that the SIMI members have got together and actually come to a decision to ignore any car that was once registered in the UK?

If so they are looking at the situation all wrong, if as you said you can do more checks than the regular punter can, then do them and if it all works out then treat the car for what it is, a piece of machinery with good history that has a value and can be sold for a modest profit. Isn't that what you guys are doing it for, to make a profit?

It is this sort of attitude by SIMI and it's members that has Irish car prices so extortinate and makes people feel they need to get proper 'value' else where for their hard earned cash


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## ang1170 (18 Jul 2007)

It's either that or an example of FUD, see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty_and_doubt

Making claims that most UK cars are clocked or you won't be able to trade them in is a classic example, I'd say.

By the way, despite this, I've a lot of sympathy for car dealers having to operate in the VRT enviromment. VRT is an absolute scandal in terms of free trade. However, the dealer's argument is with the Revenue on this, not with consumers trying to get the best deal they can (that's called competition).


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## sinbadsailor (18 Jul 2007)

I agree with you that VRT is bad news for everyone. But I just find it hard to swallow that if the SIMI and it's members were that interested in doing something about VRT, they would have an enormous amount of clout with the government in making change.

I also find it hard to believe that dealers' pockets are hurting at all with the structure of vehicle pricing in this country, VRT included.

Dealers have never come across as anything but opportunists to me, and I have had dealings with a fair few, both in and out og the capital. After all it is the dealers who are speccing out the new cars coming into the country isn't it, and then selling standard features as 'options'.....

I'm sorry if I seem to be beating down on dealers, it's just I haven't seen or heard any evidence to make me change my view, thats all


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## Mr2 (18 Jul 2007)

I couldn't say with 100% certainity that every SIMI approved Main dealer has not sold a clocked car but I'd be 99% sure. The 1% would be cars we didn't know were clocked.

FUD, from what I can see this would be information passed on by people saying that every SIMI approved Main dealer is out to screw people. Even when we go to extreme lenghts to get SIMI approval, be able to hold on to a main dealership and even meet ISO requirements. We do our best to be as transparent as possible and still people go else where and have bad experiences with otheres who are not approved for anything and rant and rave about that and give the MOTOR INDUSTRY a bad name.

Of course there are more clocked and dodge cars in UK, look at your HPI site and work out the numbers there are saying are "faulty" in some way and look at the sheer number of cars registered in the UK. Simple maths would let you work that one out.

Am I saying that UK dealers would sell a "Ringer", the man I mentioned above bought from a dealer in the UK and it was a ringer, so yes I am.


ang1170, you gave away all your details of your car. Your SIMI from that you signed when you traded in your car will have all you trade in details. 
Give me the reg off it and the milage if you like?

Profit on an Import! we won't retail a UK import. I can safetly say nearly every car we have had in here trying to trade in and for service/repair work has been clocked that has come from the UK.


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## CCOVICH (18 Jul 2007)

Saying that Irish dealers are more honest than their UK equivalent is pure opinion/hearsay unless you have objective evidence to back it up.

Saying that the _only_ way an SIMI dealer would only sell a clocked car if they were hoodwinked is also merely opinion.

A lot of weasel words in the above post. Take with a pinch of salt.


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## sinbadsailor (18 Jul 2007)

Mr2 said:


> Profit on an Import! we won't retail a UK import.



Not even if it does check out with all your checks? If thats the case it's a perfectly good car to sell?



Mr2 said:


> I can safetly say nearly every car we have had in here trying to trade in and for service/repair work has been clocked that has come from the UK.



Do you tell the customer this or do you just note that you won't accept said car if they come looking for a trade-in?

Any chance of finding out where 'here' is? Might save someone the embarrasment of trying to trade-in a UK car and be branded dodgy by the sales guy


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## RS2K (18 Jul 2007)

Googled "clocked cars ireland"....

Irish Times June 2007..
*'Clocked' cars are targeted*

  The National Consumer Agency (NCA) is preparing prosecutions against four dealers who are alleged to have "clocked" the cars they were selling.

*Not sure if any of these are/were SIMI members or not btw.*


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## RS2K (18 Jul 2007)

Example. Again not sure if it's a SIMI member, or not.


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## ang1170 (18 Jul 2007)

Mr2 said:


> I couldn't say with 100% certainity that every SIMI approved Main dealer has not sold a clocked car but I'd be 99% sure. The 1% would be cars we didn't know were clocked..


 
I'm perfectly willing to believe this. I assume you'd be willing to believe the same as your UK counterparts (franchised main dealers, that is not some dodgy back street cowboy)?.



Mr2 said:


> FUD, from what I can see this would be information passed on by people saying that every SIMI approved Main dealer is out to screw people. Even when we go to extreme lenghts to get SIMI approval, be able to hold on to a main dealership and even meet ISO requirements. We do our best to be as transparent as possible and still people go else where and have bad experiences with otheres who are not approved for anything and rant and rave about that and give the MOTOR INDUSTRY a bad name..


 
Again, I've no issue with what you say here. However, people going to UK to buy a car are simply making a consumer choice: it's called competition. Every business has it. You mightn't like it, but that's the way business is. 

Having siad that, I completely sympathise with what you say about paople going to buying privately or buying from dodgy dealers here (or the UK) and expecting the same level of support that you give (and giving the industry a bad name, as you say). However, your problem is with those dealers NOT with consumers going to the UK (or buying a properly documented UK car that's already here).



Mr2 said:


> Of course there are more clocked and dodge cars in UK, look at your HPI site and work out the numbers there are saying are "faulty" in some way and look at the sheer number of cars registered in the UK. Simple maths would let you work that one out..


 
Are you talking about absolute numbers here? if so, these make no sense. Talk about % of cars that are clocked. Where's the evidence that the % of cars clocked is higher in the UK than here? 



Mr2 said:


> Am I saying that UK dealers would sell a "Ringer", the man I mentioned above bought from a dealer in the UK and it was a ringer, so yes I am.


 
Any more likely than a dealer here doing the same? If you make the claim you'd best come up with some evidence. My assumption (and most people's) is that there are good and bad dealers both here and the UK, and that if you stick to franchised main dealers in both places your chances of getting a clocked/ringed car are low. 



Mr2 said:


> ang1170, you gave away all your details of your car. Your SIMI from that you signed when you traded in your car will have all you trade in details.
> Give me the reg off it and the milage if you like?


 
I'm not sure why you're pushing this: what are you hoping to prove? Out of interest I'll check this evening if I have any of the details and PM you, though I'm not sure what it'll achieve.



Mr2 said:


> Profit on an Import! we won't retail a UK import. I can safetly say nearly every car we have had in here trying to trade in and for service/repair work has been clocked that has come from the UK.


 
Just because you wouldn't retail an import doesn't mean to say plenty of dealers aren't happy to sell a properly documented and verified UK import.


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## Mr2 (18 Jul 2007)

RS2K, would you belive it 03OY3217 V.W. Passat is not an Irish car.
That's mad! I wonder where it came from?

We love competition, for sales and more important aftersales (when something goes wrong) a SIMI, main dealer will always take care of it's own customer better than anyone can. 

The HPI gives the % of cars and it's an awful lot for the UK. The Irish market is "Mickey Mouse" stuff copared to the rest of the 1st world. There are a lot more non-approved garages in the UK up to this stuff. There are only a few places in Ireland that are able to clock digital dispaly cars.

I am glad that you are agreeing with me on most stuff at this stage.
VRT is not our friend, it does us no favours.


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## ButtermilkJa (18 Jul 2007)

I have noticed a phenomenal amount of UK impoorts on dealers forecourts over the last 12 months. Granted, these are mostly in 'yard sale' dealers and not main dealers.

I definately think there needs to be more protection for consumers. Last year I bought a Hyundai Coupe from a SIMI dealer in Dublin. They assured me there was no repairs done to the car and everything was genuine. I found out when I went to tax it (after I had pourchased it!) that it had not been taxed in 5 months, and when I traded it in 2 weeks ago the dealer told me that it had considerable repair and respray work done to the front wing. Without proof I can't say for sure, but I would guess that the first garage were repairing this car themselves before putting it on the forecourt. And this was a SIMI garage.

In terms of being able to check mileage in Ireland, I agree that the NCT should be forced to at least provide these details if asked. When I traded in the Hyundai Coupe I bought a 2004 Commercial LandCruiser with only 27k on the clock. The steering wheel was quite worn compard to other 2004 models which concerned me but I did all the checks I could do in this country, including ringing the Department of Transport to find out when and where the last DOE was done and then contacting the doe centre to request the recorded mileage. After this checked out, and because i was getting 12 months Toyota Dealer Cover, I bought the jeep.

I guess my point is, there needs to be more done to tip things in the consumers favour, as regards history/mileage checks.


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## ButtermilkJa (18 Jul 2007)

Mr2 said:


> RS2K, would you belive it 03OY3217 V.W. Passat is not an Irish car.
> That's mad! I wonder where it came from?


Are you crossing threads with the one linked to from Boards.ie on page 2 of this thread? The Passat was imported from the UK.

EDIT: Sorry, perhaps I missed the sarcasm


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## ang1170 (18 Jul 2007)

Mr2 said:


> The HPI gives the % of cars and it's an awful lot for the UK.


 
But that's the whole point! In the UK, although it's not perfect, you have a way of checking with HPI. Here????



Mr2 said:


> The Irish market is "Mickey Mouse" stuff copared to the rest of the 1st world. There are a lot more non-approved garages in the UK up to this stuff. There are only a few places in Ireland that are able to clock digital dispaly cars.


 
I guess there's not much point in asking you for any evidence of this?


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## Mr2 (18 Jul 2007)

Sorry ButtermilkJa, the link is on the bottom of the second page on this, that's where I found it. Don't know where that site was just followed the link.

I agree if the NCT find a difference with the milage they should be allowed to tell you. It's mad that you cant.

ang1170, I won't waste my time going into google but if you want check how many dealerships are in the UK and do the same in Ireland and so on and you'll see. you'll get sales figures.


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## ang1170 (18 Jul 2007)

Mr2 said:


> I agree if the NCT find a difference with the milege they should be allowed to tell you. It's mad that you cant..


 
Agreed 100%.



Mr2 said:


> ang1170, I won't waste my time going into google but if you want check how many dealerships are in the UK and do the same in Ireland and so on and you'll see. you'll get sales figures.


 
Huh? I think with a population of 60m as opposed to 4m they just might have a few more dealers OK. 

As I said, the absolute figures are meaningless: it's the % chance of getting a clocked car that's the relevant figure.

By the way, and this is only a guess, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if all these clocked UK cars you're seeing aren't being bought genuinely in the UK and clocked when they get here (by the people bringing them in).


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## Mr2 (18 Jul 2007)

The figures do matter not just the %. if 1% of our population by new cars thats say 40,000 new cars a year, in the UK that would be 600,000 so the chances would be far greater.

I would agree with you about them being clocked here in Ireland aswell. We can see what they entered the docks at in the UK and what they have now. But my point is they will have nothing to do with SIMI approved Main dealers. But so long as people continue to buy from small dealers etc they fuel the problem.


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## ang1170 (18 Jul 2007)

Mr2 said:


> The figures do matter not just the %. if 1% of our population by new cars thats say 40,000 new cars a year, in the UK that would be 600,000 so the chances would be far greater..


 
No, the chances of buying a clocked car (all things being equal) are the number of clocked cars for sale divided by the total number of cars for sale, which is a percentage. If you buy in the UK (or a UK car here with a documented history) you have a much greater chance of ensuring that all things are not equal and the chance is very low.

As I said before, I'm perfectly willing to believe that chances are also low when buying from a reputable dealer (in either country). "Reputable" being short-hand for franchised main dealer. 

The big problem is buying privately or from a dealer with an unknown reputation here: you've no way of checking the mileage.



Mr2 said:


> I would agree with you about them being clocked here in Ireland aswell. We can see what they entered the docks at in the UK and what they have now. But my point is they will have nothing to do with SIMI approved Main dealers. But so long as people continue to buy from small dealers etc they fuel the problem.


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## Murt10 (18 Jul 2007)

Mr2 said:


> There are only a few places in Ireland that are able to clock digital dispaly cars.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## ButtermilkJa (18 Jul 2007)

Murt10 said:


> I thought that's what all the lads in Buy and Sell with a mobile telephone number advertising mileage correction services were doing. Have laptop, will travel.
> 
> 
> Murt


It is, exactly. There are plenty of people who are willing and able to clock cars, digital odo or not.

As a matter of interest, what would be the reasons why someone would legally want a car clocked? I only ask because it is not illegal to clock cars in this country, so why would this service be needed?


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## Mr2 (19 Jul 2007)

ang1170, I would agree if you buy direct from a SIMI, Main dealer in the UK your self, chances are you'll be grand. For the people that don't (most people) they buy from the little garage who give us a bad name because they are usually clocked.

The lads with "the lap tops" just change what you see on the clock, again that's small stuff, to properly clock a car there is a bit more to it. On most cars there are different control units with memories that cannot be wiped and there different per car. The only way to do this is to replace the different control units with a "virgin control unit" which you then up load the milage at which you removed the old one. But it's wired to different control units so you can't lie to it as it will not accept an incorect milage reading (within 1,000 kms). There's a bit more to it but I won't bore you with it.

Clocking, they call it "adjusting", I'm not sure why people do it and still drive them but a customer that did it and said he didn't want to be driving a car with huge milage on the clock, he said if some one got into his car and had to drive it they might think bad of my fancy car. This was his reason (maybe a bit vain) but he was happy.


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## ang1170 (19 Jul 2007)

That's interesting about being able to detect when a car has been "clocked": I wasn't aware it was possible. If that's the case, why don't (legit) dealers sell with a warrenty that the mileage is genuine (i.e. if it turns out not to be genuine, they'll take it back at the price it was sold at)? or if they do this already, make more of a deal about it? If this became common, it would tend to freeze out those that didn't offer such a warrenty.

What would really make a difference would be a service like HPI here.

As for your story about the customer clocking his own car, I'd take that one with a barrel load of salt: he knows very well the effect the mileage has when he comes to sell it.


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## Mr2 (19 Jul 2007)

Maybe we should make a bigger deal out of it but the Motor Trade already has a bad rep as it is, if we were to would it make us look even worse?

As regards a Warranty, we sort of do, we'll give you a years warranty or sometimes at lease 6 months, alot of small places it's "buyer be ware" or 3 month warranty and your left on your own. 

For something like HPI here, we are building a data base at the moment, so final date yet but they are working out details at the moment.

We asked him about the adjusting, he said it's for him now and that's all that matters, he'll keep driving it, we asked what will he do when he wants rid of it, sell it and what ever milage is on it when he does get rid would be none of our business. 

There's nothing we can do, but we have it on our computer system current and real milage and it will be on the above data base.


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## RS2K (19 Jul 2007)

The motor trade should make a positive out of standing over any used car they sell.

They should check and verify mileages & history, and fully indemnify customers should they sell them a dud. 

p.s. If the checks were done correctly and thoroughly, this would never happen btw.


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## Mr2 (19 Jul 2007)

We do as much as we can, Toyota dealer cover, Nissan gold standard etc,
but people will still go to Joe Bloggs Motors until they get badly stung. 

We have done our best, you won't find a dud on our forecourts. But freewill lets people go where they want (we can't and won't stop them), competition will rule and be the deciding factor at the end when the whole owning a car experience is actually fully checked out (SIMI,Main dealers will win).


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## ButtermilkJa (19 Jul 2007)

Mr2 said:


> We do as much as we can, Toyota dealer cover, Nissan gold standard etc,...


Just out of curiosity, if I buy from a Main Delaer (e.g. Toyota) and I get 12 months Toyota Dealer Cover, does this guarantee me my car is genuine, or is it simply a higher chance it's genuine?

I mean, will the Toyota dealer do every check possible to ensure the car is genuine? The reason I ask is because I did recently buy a car from a Toyota Dealer with this cover, but it was left up to me to ring the Dept. of Transport, DOE Test Centre, owner etc., to check mileage as best I could.

Surely if the dealer can do these checks he would, and have the details for me if I'm interested in buying the car. None of this was ever mentoned to me. I had to dig myself. And even then the DOE centre guy was very reluctant to give out any info on the vehicle in question to a casual caller.

If the dealers could gather this info and make it available to potential customers it would leave them in a much stronger position!


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## ang1170 (19 Jul 2007)

That's what I meant about a warrenty for mileage (and description): if the mileage is subsequently found to be incorrect, the dealer should warrent they'll take it back at the full price paid. If they did this, people would have a lot more confidence, as it moves the risk to the dealer rather from the consumer.

I can't see why they wouldn't offer such a warrenty if they're confident enough in the checks they do. 

This is over and above any other warrenty, which covers defects that can happen to any car (the remedy for which is repair rather than refund).


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## ButtermilkJa (19 Jul 2007)

I agree, I think these guarantees would be worth more on paper.

When you trade in any car you fill out the SIMI order form, and you state whether or not the car has been damaged, clocked, etc in any way, while under your ownership. If you say no, and then the car is later found to be clocked, the dealer can use this order form as evidence and take you to court.

At least this is what the salesman told me when I was buying my jeep and had concerns over the mileage.

I would just be more interested to know if this is indeed the case, and if so, why can't it be made more official to give customers peace of mind?


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## Mr2 (19 Jul 2007)

As I've said before we have only got access to this information recently and are still building an even bigger data base. Going forward we will probally do something like this but we will not want to make a huge issue of clocked cars we will just blanket ban them. 

The cost to a dealer for this would increase the price of the cars, while we may have access to previous owners etc we could not give it out otherwise you would have people ringing previous customers and like I said above most people don't want to know any more about the car they traded in. 

Where would we draw the line at the amount of info we coud give to a private person. It would almost be completly based on trust with your dealer then put in very awkard sisuations if something did go wrong and a customer demanding to talk to a previous owner to make sure he/she didn't get a dud and an ex-owner who doesn't want to know. Where would the dealer be left? Prob with a solictor letter on our desk. It wouldn't make sence.


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## Mr2 (19 Jul 2007)

In Ireland every thing gets a "Solictor letter". You sign an SIMI order form your bound to arbitration with a SIMI, Main dealer but you can sue the ass of Joe Bloggs Motors. So why interfer when if it keeps going the way were sending away clocked cars they will all end up closing or playing by the rules. Either way we will be happy.


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## ang1170 (19 Jul 2007)

Mr2 said:


> As I've said before we have only got access to this information recently and are still building an even bigger data base. Going forward we will probally do something like this but we will not want to make a huge issue of clocked cars we will just blanket ban them.


 
The sooner this happens, the better.



Mr2 said:


> The cost to a dealer for this would increase the price of the cars, while we may have access to previous owners etc we could not give it out otherwise you would have people ringing previous customers and like I said above most people don't want to know any more about the car they traded in.
> 
> Where would we draw the line at the amount of info we coud give to a private person. It would almost be completly based on trust with your dealer then put in very awkard sisuations if something did go wrong and a customer demanding to talk to a previous owner to make sure he/she didn't get a dud and an ex-owner who doesn't want to know. Where would the dealer be left? Prob with a solictor letter on our desk. It wouldn't make sence.


 
You don't have to give the info about previous owners out: just stand over the car as described, i.e. if you're selling an 04 VW Golf GTI with 32k kms with no finance outstanding on it, then if any part of that turns out to be incorrect (e.g. it's not an 04 car, or it's a regular Golf with a GTI badge stuck on the back, or it's done 90k kms), then you'll take it back for the full price paid. To do this, clearly you'd need access to an acurate database, but once you have this it'd be easy to provide. It would do wonders for legitimate dealer's business, and their reputation wouldn't be brought down by the rest of the trade who didn't offer such a warrenty.

Similarly, if a HPI-like service were available to the public, all people are interested in are the details: is it what it's claimed to be? what's its mileage? is it stolen? finance owed? etc. Where or how this is collected doesn't matter, so long as people have confidence in the information available.


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## RS2K (19 Jul 2007)

Above post is spot on.

My feeling is that despite Mr2's assurances, the motoring public feel very negatively towards car dealers (whether or not SIMI members).

They basically do not trust them, feel they offer poor value on straight deals and trade ins, are poor and often horrendously expensive as regards sorting out issues (the was a thread on another board which was truly shocking).

Standing over all vehicles sold, and giving a money back warranty covering correct mileage & undisclosed accident damage would be a very positive step that perhaps SIMI members should consider?


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## Mr2 (19 Jul 2007)

It's true that we could do as above but our warranty at the moment would have all rules and regulations in it already, if we were just to add this bit on there would be to many question, if say an engine packed in we say "okay, grand, we'll replace it". Bar stool mechanic friend (as usual) takes a look and reckons there's no way that car should do that at that milage it must be clocked etc etc etc. Or two shocks are gone in the rear at again low milage, we say we will fit them but customers mech friend says dodge car.

Where would we be left?

We would be left wide open, and we would end up buying a lot of cars back because we have to leave the previous owner out of things. Other problems, what if a person bought a car and sold it on to someone else with the same warranty that is still on the car but the person we sold it to clocks it again we would be wraped up in a court case. It's our name that's dragged through court.


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## Mr2 (19 Jul 2007)

There is poor value on trade in's, I'll agree on that. But's that competition, we need to be competive. Economics "Supply and Demand", if people keep buying and importing UK cars and Jap cars etc you flood the market and create the market we have to trade in. Your local dealer (belive it or not) what's to give you as much as we can for your car so you stay a customer of ours and get value for money but you the consumer created a market that's biting you on the ass.

Why would we give huge money off on straight deal's, if we make very little on normal trade in deal and given a straight deal why should we not be allowed to make a profit. Is this not a business were trying to run?

As far as I know business is about making money, I'm sure you have a job and know how things work, it's not out of the goodness of our hearts we go to work. We have wives and children, like you.


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## Caveat (19 Jul 2007)

Agree with the most recent posts by Ang & RS2K

In relation to all aspects of the 'service' provided in this country, well, there must be at least some reliable and trustworthy garages out there - personally, I've yet to come across one.

I always buy used & every garage (Inc main dealers) I've dealt with has I feel ripped me off to some extent. This ranges from general incompetence to lying about damage - e.g. a quick google has previously provided me (a complete mechanical novice) with details of well known faults of particular models that the garage had advised were 'highly unusual'. Another dealer only admitted to damage/paint job when put under duress by an independent inspection.

These are only a couple of examples.  As a consequence I will never again buy off any dealer (regardless of warranty supplied) without an independent inspection.

As I said, they can't *all *be like this, but my experiences have left a very bitter taste.


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## Mr2 (19 Jul 2007)

Caveat, I'm sorry that you feel this way, we would have no problem with any independant inspection you want to come to us with.

Some cars are dependant on climate etc, I've a customer that recently ate me over a "common problem" on an Audi TT, said how could it not be covered etc. It's covered in this other country, how do we not know about it etc etc.

Turned out the problem he was on about was specific to the American TT and only very few cases were ever found in Europe. As far as we are concerned there is no problem but in America it's a recall.

As regards damage/pait job, we would often service, valet and touch up a side of a bumper or sometimes replace a wing but that doesn't count as structure damage so there is no need to say it unless you want to. Sometimes a salesman might miss it when it comes in, sells the car to you and may only discover the paint later when he/she sees the car later.

Check with your insurance company, even when they payout after a claim, unless it's structure damage you won't get deprecation money.


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## Caveat (19 Jul 2007)

Your points sound fair enough Mr2

But, regarding the examples I mentioned this was a European problem affecting UK/Irish cars - it seemed to be *very* well known - garage didn't have a clue about it (or at least claimed to not know about it)

Regarding the paint/damage - dealer was specifically asked if there had been any damage/sections painted and I was advised 'No'.

Ignorance doesn't come into it as he later *admitted* that the car had in fact been 'damaged and painted' - played it all down of course - but the fact is he lied in response to a specific question.


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## Mr2 (19 Jul 2007)

I can't comment really any more about the problem as I don't know what it is, bar it was head gasket blowing on a punto !!!!!

If he denied a specifically asked question like that, then you would be right to hold all his/her coments with a grain of salt.


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## Mr2 (20 Jul 2007)

To be completely honest, it does happen from time to time. The importers that I've delt with would not repair them. They replace maybe a front bumper or rear bumper (easy to match as the car and colour is so fresh) any more than that they would sell them to the trade or register them as company cars and sell them on to traders in 6 months or a year as damaged/repaired. 

Most importers work the same sort of rule. Cars that are damaged by the transport company all have to be bought by the transport company or there insurance company and again they would work the same rule, hold for a while and then sell.


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## hinds87 (23 Jul 2007)

Caveat said:


> AFAIK www.carcheck.ie will provide confirmation of previous ownership as well as a very thorough technical examination.
> 
> Used them before and found them very worthwhile (no connection)



I was pretty impressed by these guys


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## RS2K (23 Jul 2007)

Still won't prove it wasn't clocked unfortuantely.


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