# State of Property on Tenant Leaving



## Kiernp (16 Jun 2005)

Hi,
Would be interested to know how other landlords find the state of their properties when the tenant leaves.

I have been letting a property for 5 years and every tenant has left it in a mess. I don't mean just untidy I mean ranging from dirty to squalid, this includes a room littered with animal waste, carcass bones, rooms never having been hoovered during the tenancy, lots of personal stuff including rubbish left behind.

The last tenant followed the same pattern and was indignant when I withheld 100 euro of her deposit. I think I'm being too soft. I'm prompted to write this because a second property I let to a professional couple with a child has been damaged by a fire requiring me to visit. The walls in every room have been scribbled on by the kid, full scale drawings several feet square in every room! The house was freshly painted when they took occupancy.

I have spoken to an agent about this and I was told "Irish people don't respect other people's property".


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## zardebt (16 Jun 2005)

I was a tenant for a time and I must say all in all I left the rental  in a better state in which i found it which was usually run down

A friend of mine who works for a letting agent says that generally if a house is in good condition at the start  and the landlord is fair and accommodating then the property is respected better .

And if you rent to  a family do expect writing on the walls I mean kids are kids ....

the only think I did see once was where one of the tenants painted the apartment in dark red .....it was really bad took weeks to remove!!


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## Thrifty (16 Jun 2005)

Hi,

Don't personally agree with Zardebt. I rented my fair share of properties over the years. I always left the place in excellant condition because i wanted my full deposit back. 
I don't see why anyone who's renting shouldn't treat the property with the same care as they would if they owned it. After all its far more pleasant for them while they live in it. Its right to expect a fair amount of wear and tear and with a young child I can understand a bit of scribbling - that happens but every room is a bit extreme. Would the parents really allow the child to scribble on the walls if they owned the house. Also what sort of a message is that giving the child - certainly not respect for other people's property.


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## zardebt (16 Jun 2005)

Thrifty said:
			
		

> Hi,
> 
> Don't personally agree with Zardebt. I rented my fair share of properties over the years. I always left the place in excellant condition because i wanted my full deposit back.
> property.



You are spot on there always tried to make sure the place was clean to get the deposit back although they used to put me on the long finger "I have it for you next week" .... until I mentioned rent relief .... that usually made them return my deposit.....



			
				Thrifty said:
			
		

> Its right to expect a fair amount of wear and tear and with a young child I can understand a bit of scribbling - that happens but every room is a bit extreme.



ya I used to be that child who used to scribbling all over the place ....
and it was my mums house ... ya she used to give out ...but I could never really decided was it over the mess on the wall or the fact that _I used to draw my mum with this rather evil head_


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## delgirl (16 Jun 2005)

Comiserate with you kiernp.  Been a landlord on and off since 1991 and I would say that 80% of my tenants showed absolutely no respect whatsoever for the properties.

I know a family who rented for years and then got enough together to get a house of their own.

In the rental property, anything went - the kids came in with mucky shoes, dirty bikes were parked in the hall damaging the wallpaper and the actual plaster with the handlebars, cleaning was haphazzard, the garden was a mess, etc.

When they moved to their own house, my son was asked to remove his shoes on the way in, the bikes were put in the shed, the place was spotless, the garden manicured, etc.

The lack of respect is sickening and the number of tenants using the deposit as the last month's rent defeats the purpose of the deposit system, leaving the landlord with no recourse should the property be damaged or left dirty.

We got a house back once and had to hire 2 skips to remove the rubbish left behind, the carpets all had to be replaced, there was food debris on the kitchen, hall and dining room walls which had soaked into the wallpaper - so that all had to be stripped and the walls painted, we had to scrape the grease off the kitchen floor with a metal spatula, dining chairs had been smashed, cigarette burns in the leather suite, etc.

Begining to wonder if it's worth the hassle!


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## Jack Frost (16 Jun 2005)

when I was nipper I'd get a clip across the ear for drawing on a wall. now it seems to be the done thing to let kids do what they like, and use the walls as a drawing board.

is it just me or is the world going mad.

Old Jack Frost......


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## franmac (17 Jun 2005)

I agree with you regarding disipline. I was in the landlord position until recently and from experience I refused to accept children in my small house.

I settled for less rent and had either couples or one person leasing it, and I have to say my last tenants were perfect.

Have sold the property since and I am sad to say that I did'nt want children in the property but my children were made to respect and appreciate people and the enviorment and why should I accept less from someone elses children?


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## zardebt (17 Jun 2005)

[font=&quot]ah now not to take from the thread but a child scribble .... what can more than a lick of paint would solve .....

If  that’s all a landlord has to complain about well its got it good .. oh ya .

A lick of paint doesn't hurt the profit margins too much 

Landlords wake up smell the coffee want do ye want 
the tenants from heaven, the mortgage paid for and house appreciation ah my heart goes out to ye .....when ye find that a child paints yer wall

Zar-debt
[/font]


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## CoffeeBrew (17 Jun 2005)

Isn't the landlord or agency entitled to enter every couple of months and photograph the property ? 

This can protect the renter from Landlords feigning shock at the end of the lease and withholding a big chunks of their deposit and also protect the Landlord by giving advance warning of deteriorating conditions in their property.


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## z107 (17 Jun 2005)

> [font=&quot] A lick of paint doesn't hurt the profit margins too much



Well tenant's like Delgirl's experience (above) would certainly wipe out any profit. This thread seems to more than just about a child's scribble.

(It's hard to get ink off of walls. Paint over it, and it soaks through the paint. Dulux won't cover this in one 'lick'.)
[/font]


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## delgirl (17 Jun 2005)

> Landlords wake up smell the coffee want do ye want
> the tenants from heaven, the mortgage paid for and house appreciation ah my heart goes out to ye .....when ye find that a child paints yer wall


You've obviously never been a landlord and for your information, we're not all wealthy and your comments smack of envy!

Some of us have worked and saved very hard for what we have and only ask that tenants show some basic respect, *in accordance with the terms of the lease they sign when they agree to rent the property,* in return for providing them with a home that they otherwise couldn't afford.

Would like to see how you would react if your nice shiny new car was parked outside your house and a child decided to do a 'Citroen Picasso' all over it - ah, sure it'd be okay, you'd only need a new coat of paint!


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## zardebt (17 Jun 2005)

umop3p!sdn said:
			
		

> Well tenant's like Delgirl's experience (above) would certainly wipe out any profit. This thread seems to more than just about a child's scribble.
> 
> (It's hard to get ink off of walls. Paint over it, and it soaks through the paint. Dulux won't cover this in one 'lick'.)
> [/font]



Sorry umop3p!sdn not trying to pick on landlords profit margins but 

1. Can they not deduct maintenance expense against taxes (I might be making the 
assumption that the landlord is declaring taxes oops )

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=5996

2. when you decorate a place for renting you decorate in way that is netural 
and easily repaired / cleaned .

can you outline to me how any experience would wipe out a growth rate of 30% 

no this I need to see to believe sorry !! 

can you outline to me what overall profit on a rental is and how this can be wiped out by a solvent remover and a few tins of paints...

thanks,
Zar-debt


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## z107 (17 Jun 2005)

*
 1. Can they not deduct maintenance expense against taxes (I might be making the 
 assumption that the landlord is declaring taxes oops )

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=5996
*
They can deduct maintenance expense against taxes. 

To be frank, your use of 'oops' is offensive. Should I insinuate you evade tax also, with no evidence to back up my claim?

*2. when you decorate a place for renting you decorate in way that is netural 
 and easily repaired / cleaned .*

Carpets and paint still costs money. I don't understand your point.

*can you outline to me how any experience would wipe out a growth rate of 30% *

A growth rate of 30%? Where do you get that figure?

*can you outline to me what overall profit on a rental is and how this can be wiped out by a solvent remover and a few tins of paints...*

Carpets, paint, solvent remover, time, unoccupied premises, furniture, (skips!) etc... costs €€€€s. These expenses will wipe out profit. It's a pretty basic concept: Money in < money out.

Are you currently renting out property to tenants?


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## zardebt (17 Jun 2005)

hi umop3p!sdn

Sorry if I was offensive I didn't even know you were a land lord and I wasn't trying to insult you or suggest that you are evading tax ...its just my experience from renting was the only way I could ever get my deposit back was to ask the landlord if he could me his/hers PPS number ....

In respect of you I will answer your last question once you have accepted my sincere
sorry and you are aware that any of my comment are not a direct insult at you

Sorry,
Zar-debt


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## Kiernp (17 Jun 2005)

Hi,

Just to clarify.  I'm not talking about a scribble here and there I'm talking about the child using the walls as drawing paper i.e. multi coloured marks in pen, crayon and paint several feet square.  The whole house will need to be repainted.  A cost of about 2000 euro unless I do it myself.  The tenant's deposit would not come close to covering it.

I used this disregard as my experience of the treatment of rented property by the tenants that I've had.   I could mention lawnmower left out in the rain, paint spilled on leather suite, mould in fridge, filthy cookers, remains of the fire thrown in garden outside the back door but I won't bore you.  

Re inspections as I was a tenant for years and I did'nt like to be disturbed by the landlord, I have tried to treat tenants as I liked to be treated.

The thing is to let the property it needs to be and has been spotless. 

One final point: I lived abroad for years and one very noticeable thing on my return is the amount of litter in public places.  Even in beauty spots its not unusual for people to leave rubbish behind.  I think we have a problem in general in our attitudes to environments that we do not own.


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## z107 (17 Jun 2005)

Zardebt - thanks for the apology (It was only a bit offensive! :-D)

I have been both a landlord and a tenant. I've left a property spotless and lost my deposit over a burn on the countertop in the kitchen (which I didn't burn). 

As a landlord, I've also had furniture busted and walls drawn on. Although, unlike the above contributors, the walls were drawn on by adults! They drew pornographic pictures behind mirrors etc.


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## Novice (17 Jun 2005)

delgirl said:
			
		

> Some of us have worked and saved very hard for what we have and only ask that tenants show some basic respect, *in accordance with the terms of the lease they sign when they agree to rent the property,* in return for providing them with a home that they otherwise couldn't afford.
> 
> 
> > I think that this comment is really insulting to tenants. You make it sound as if you are doing the tenants a favour by leasing a property to them. You might want to consider that they also work hard and probably save too in order to provide you with monthly rent and deposit.
> ...


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## zardebt (17 Jun 2005)

umop3p!sdn said:
			
		

> Zardebt - thanks for the apology (It was only a bit offensive! :-D)
> 
> I have been both a landlord and a tenant. I've left a property spotless and lost my deposit over a burn on the countertop in the kitchen (which I didn't burn).
> 
> As a landlord, I've also had furniture busted and walls drawn on. Although, unlike the above contributors, the walls were drawn on by adults! They drew pornographic pictures behind mirrors etc.



Was I a landlord at any stage ...

- Yes there was a time when I bought a house for 127000euros it was around the change of the euro ...and I got the tenant from hell the toilet was bad and what I found in the room well I don't think I really want to share....

but saying that I decided to sell a year later as renting in the area was getting difficult  and the house was gone up to 185k .... 

the house cost 800  euros to do up 

a new garden , tiles new floor and a lick of paint the house was as new 
but it cost me four long weekends ..but I am a big DIY fan so all wasn't too bad


how can I complain about being a landlord when I walk away with a 46k profit ?

hmmmmmm


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## delgirl (17 Jun 2005)

> I think that this comment is really insulting to tenants. You make it sound as if you are doing the tenants a favour by leasing a property to them. You might want to consider that they also work hard and probably save too in order to provide you with monthly rent and deposit.


 My comment was not meant to be insulting to tenants - I have been a tenant myself quite a few times in the past. I'm merely making the point that it works both ways - I agree to provide you with a nice, clean, functional home and you agree to look after it!  That's what it says in the lease and I don't think that's too much to ask.


> In relation to the deposit being used as the last months rent - I have never experienced a landlord who accepted this before.


This has happened to me a few times and it's not a question of acceptance.  What do you do when the tenant tells you to use his deposit when the last month's rent is due?  It's a lenghty process to get a court order to evict him and short of going over there and throwing him out, which is incidentally against the law, there's absolutely nothing you can do.


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## zardebt (17 Jun 2005)

delgirl said:
			
		

> You've obviously never been a landlord and for your information, we're not all wealthy and your comments smack of envy!
> 
> Some of us have worked and saved very hard for what we have and only ask that tenants show some basic respect, *in accordance with the terms of the lease they sign when they agree to rent the property,* in return for providing them with a home that they otherwise couldn't afford.
> 
> Would like to see how you would react if your nice shiny new car was parked outside your house and a child decided to do a 'Citroen Picasso' all over it - ah, sure it'd be okay, you'd only need a new coat of paint!



Hi Delgirl - I was a landlord once eney not really just if I had to feel sorry for someone
I think I would be more in the side of the tenants ...

You know maybe I had it easy with my 43k profit in one year but I sure I am not the only one ?

About the car .... well you cheer me up with the suggestion of a child doing a Citroen Picasso  on my car - it could only make it better at the moment - not really into expensive cars 

and if I was in the BUSiness of renting cars and if I got a car back with a Citroen Picasso  on it  well if the cost of repainting the car left me with no profit then I am in the wrong BUSINESS !!

time to move on to a more profitable one ...


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## delgirl (17 Jun 2005)

> if I had to feel sorry for someone
> I think I would be more in the side of the tenants ...



So zardebt, do you feel sorry for the family who caused E2,000 worth of damage to kiernp's house and feel that kiernp deserved it as he's a landlord who _possibly_ stands to make a profit when he sells his property?

What if the property market crashes and kiernp finds himself in negative equity, will you feel sorry for him then?


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## zardebt (17 Jun 2005)

ah now delgirl no one deserves misfortune as you said it works both ways 

if a landlord has 2,0000 worth of damage he can write some of it off against tax and 
when he sells his house he still can make a tidy profit 

if a tenant loose a depoit he/she can't write it off against tax ...

if the property market crashes and kiernp finds himself in negative equity well thats is 
the nature of the any business there are risk and with every gain comes a risk 

I mean would you feel sorry for Bank of Ireland if they began to make a loss .....

haven't the bank and the landlords had it good for a longtime ..


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## delgirl (17 Jun 2005)

You're missing the point zardebt, if the poor tenants didn't wilfully damage the property they wouldn't lose their deposit now would they?  

If they had the decency to wash off the mess their children made or offer to paint it before they left, I don't think any landlord would keep their deposit.

At the end of the day, it all comes down to respect.  I have the greatest respect for my tenants - I respect their privacy and their right to peaceful enjoyment of, what is after all, their home.  I do, however, expect this respect to be reciprocated and deliberate damage to someone elses property, be it a landlord, neighbour or whatever, is extremely disrespectful and unacceptable.

All landlords accept normal wear and tear, drawing on the walls unfortunately doesn't fall into this category.


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## ice (17 Jun 2005)

The assumption seems to be that all landlords are respecting and fair with their tenants and that its the tenants that cause all the hassle.


This is not always the case. Some landlords can be downright unfair and unpleasant.
I've had landlords refuse to pay back deposits despite my having had carpets steam cleaned and left the place spotless. 
One landlord wanted to keep over 1000 deposit because the windows weren't cleaned properly !
I've had others who have complained and even refused to fix basic things in the house (problem with heating etc).

Of course a tenant should treat a landlords house with respect and it should be handed back in good condition but what excatly is reasonable wear and tear ????

If I rent a house for 8 years at 1500 per month (144,000 in total) then I think as long as we leave the place in good nic (nothing broken, not damage to furniture etc)the landlord should give the place a lick of paint and clean the carpets before the next tenant without any lose of my deposit. On the grand scale of things its not very much for him to do...especially if tenants have been good payers, no trouble etc...


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## zardebt (17 Jun 2005)

delgirl said:
			
		

> You're missing the point zardebt, if the poor tenants didn't wilfully damage the property they wouldn't lose their deposit now would they?
> 
> If they had the decency to wash off the mess their children made or offer to paint it before they left, I don't think any landlord would keep their deposit.
> 
> ...


  I agree with you that deliberate damage is disrespectful qed

but a child’s scribbles ...... I am sorry I can't put that in the above category

there is always some bad eggs out there but one must factor this in any business ... ?

The outliers always makes the headlines but if you look at the average picture up to now the landlords had it good overall??


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## Theo (18 Jun 2005)

Hi

I have a simple philosophy as a landlord that works for me everytime.  I make sure to offer a quality service to my tenants (I view them as my customers) and I treat them as such.  I ensure they have proper standard accomodation and I visit every 6 months to ensure everything is ok.  I invite them to contact me the minute they have a problem and if there is, I ensure its fixed asap.
To date, I have rarely been called upon and my properties are always left in excellent condition.
My view is that the only good tenant is the one that has served their contract, is fully paid up and has left the property in good condition. I take no chances.  So treat them well, and human nature dictates that they will reciprocate. This is simply good business sense.
Hope that helps

t


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## zardebt (18 Jun 2005)

Theo said:
			
		

> Hi
> 
> I have a simple philosophy as a landlord that works for me everytime. I make sure to offer a quality service to my tenants (I view them as my customers) and I treat them as such. I ensure they have proper standard accomodation and I visit every 6 months to ensure everything is ok. I invite them to contact me the minute they have a problem and if there is, I ensure its fixed asap.
> To date, I have rarely been called upon and my properties are always left in excellent condition.
> ...



well said ....t but like any business you have to factor in the possibility of
repairs damages etc just like the shop keeper factors in shoplifting ..


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## franmac (19 Jun 2005)

Theo said:
			
		

> Hi
> 
> I have a simple philosophy as a landlord that works for me everytime. I make sure to offer a quality service to my tenants (I view them as my customers) and I treat them as such. I ensure they have proper standard accomodation and I visit every 6 months to ensure everything is ok. I invite them to contact me the minute they have a problem and if there is, I ensure its fixed asap.
> To date, I have rarely been called upon and my properties are always left in excellent condition.
> ...


 
I totally agree with you. Had a good relationship with my previous tenants who were invited to my home on several occasions for parties,bar-b-qs and pre dinner drinks on Christmas morning.


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## delgirl (24 Jun 2005)

Monday 27th June, 9pm on UTV - Tenants from Hell - a must-see for all would-be landlords!   They're out there!


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## kfpg (26 Jun 2005)

Kiernp said:
			
		

> I don't mean just untidy I mean ranging from dirty to squalid, this includes a room littered with animal waste, carcass bones, rooms never having been hoovered during the tenancy, lots of personal stuff including rubbish left behind.
> The last tenant followed the same pattern and was indignant when I withheld 100 euro of her deposit. I'm prompted to write this because a second property I let to a professional couple with a child has been damaged by a fire requiring me to visit. The walls in every room have been scribbled on by the kid, full scale drawings several feet square in every room! The house was freshly painted when they took occupancy.  I have spoken to an agent about this and I was told "Irish people don't respect other people's property".


 
When tenants give a months notice to vacate a property it is at this stage that you must enquire if they intend to clean the property themselves or if they require you to organise professional cleaners at their expense.  Using this line alone can have dramatic results!!!!  This is being fair as the tenant has a month to clean, if they fail to do so and are hit with the charge or a contribution towards professional cleaners at least they were warned. 

When new tenants move into a property it can be helpful if at the lease signing stage that refuse is correctly explained i.e.  who pays for the service, who pays for bin replacement if the bins become misplaced.  State also that a charge will  be imposed if the bins are left overflowing on vacating the property and if bags of refuse or any personal items are left on the property that the charges for a man with a trailer will be deducted from the deposit.   

Depending on the size of the property, holding back €100 was not unfair.  Average four bed house cleaning cost would be €200 depending on the location and the actual condition.
As for dogs, the lease should contain a note that animals are not accepted or at least get the tenants to sign a disclaimer that states that any evidence of an animal when vacating will be rectified at the cost of the tenants.  

I hope this helps!!


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## mikeyny (28 Jun 2005)

I have been renting property for 10 years , i fulfill all of my obligations to the tenants as provided for in the standard lease and i also pay all of my taxes , i registered with the PRTB before the deadline , no word so far.

 some have been great and some have been terrible . i have one guy who has been i one of my houses 3 years this December and he is no trouble at all , he sometimes is late with his rent but as he works construction his income is not steady and i make allowances for that . he appreciates that i consider this. 
In another house i have the people have just left and have an outstanding ESB bill (485 euros) and that was a month ago, now i am going to take them to court for the outstand ballance (the bill is in my name ) . i have done it before and the outcome was sadisfactory . after a few months both myself and the lawyer got paid 
 Do people think that they cannot fulfill there finantial obligations ?      
My lawyer loves this type of work , the facts are not an issue and going to court is all in a day's work , they/i am giong to get paid 

i maintain all of my properties to a good standard of decoration and if something needs to be fixed i fix it .

how about the time the drug squad broke down the front door in search of drugs , the guy had his own business and when i met him he seemed great to me but it was his partners adult children that had gone bad . 

are the drug squad going to pay for the door? NO and how about the lost income while i had the door fixed and had to go out and find new people .

there are good and bad tenants and landlords  , i hope as a good landlord i will get the good tenants 

mikeyny


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## soc (28 Jun 2005)

Tenant vacated house yesterday morning - she was there for the last year.  Inspected it only to find water damage across 3 rooms in the house - there had been a leak in the water mains in the attic.  B*tch didn't bother her This post will be deleted if not edited to remove bad language to tell me... just let it be.  Looks like the leak had been there for weeks...even months! Damage may be €5-7k!  

She also stole the double-bed!  And the house is unbelievably filthy!  There is grime everywhere!  I am NOT a happy camper!

-soc


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## delgirl (28 Jun 2005)

Commiserate with you soc, been there and have the photos to prove it! 

Some people don't believe this actually happens - here's you and kiernp in the space of a few days with the same problem.

Since it happened to me in 1999, I've made a point of being a more frequent visitor to check things as they go along so I, hopefully, don't get any surprises at the end of the tenancy.  I've also included an additional sheet with the tenancy agreement entitled 'Some of the more Common Causes for Deductions from Your Deposit'.


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## elcato (29 Jun 2005)

Hi soc - Did you give her back the deposit before she vacated ? Surely the time to return a deposit is on vacation of premises.


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## Theo (29 Jun 2005)

Soc, while I understand your fury at the tenant for not telling you, its really up to you as a landlord to manage the property.  As a  minimum, properties need to be visited every 6 months - if you do not do this, you are sending a signal to your tenant that you do not care about her or the property, so why should she?

Property investing is a business, and even if you only have one investment property, you are increasing your risk if you do not treat it as such.

As a general rule, about 5% of tenants will be bad eggs no matter what you do.  That's life and its a risk you accept when you invest.  The other 95% will treat the property well if you act in a professional manner when dealing with them and your property.  My figures are based on personal experience as a professional landlord and the personal experiences of other fellow professionals.

t


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## soc (29 Jun 2005)

elcato said:
			
		

> Hi soc - Did you give her back the deposit before she vacated ? Surely the time to return a deposit is on vacation of premises.


 Most definately did not return tbe bond!  She was a couple of weeks behind in rent too.  But this doesn't cover the damage done, rent owing and the bed.


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