# Incitement charge for those inciting people not to pay the household charge?



## thedaras (16 Mar 2012)

As Clare Daly and other TDs are continuing to tell people to boycott the household charge,is there any chance that an incitement charge could be brought about?

My mother just phoned me to  say she heard Daly on radio a few minutes ago and the more Daly says about not paying the more she is  inclined not to pay,because she thinks that as Daly is telling people to boycott the charge,and is a TD , mother is an OAP and believes that a TD wouldn't get her into trouble.,that as Daly said ,they wont bring people to court as there are too many involved..Is that incitement?


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## micmclo (16 Mar 2012)

For someone from Kildare Daly has one of the strongest Dublin accents around

She has become more Dub then the Dubs themselves


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## Latrade (16 Mar 2012)

I prefer the straw man and ad hominem approach to this TD. But for me, when you claim a full TD's salary and you claim €20K a year for travelling to and from Swords to Merrion Street, you lose the right to speak for, represent or claim to associate with the "down trodden" and "most vulnerable."

I'd buy the latest Springsteen album if I wanted to listen to the most vulnerable having their misery romanticised and condescended to by someone who lost touch with them a long time ago all in the name of their ego.


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## Delboy (16 Mar 2012)

Can a TD stand again for the Dail if they have a criminal conviction?
Will TD's who don't pay this be refused a tax clearance cert thus ruling them out for running next time?

From Kildare...classic. I always thought she was more Dublin than Molly Malone herself. Only a country like this could produce socialists like Rich Boy Barret, Clare Daly, Paul Murphy, Ruairi Quinn (brother of Lochlann Quinn of Glen Diplex fame), Eamon Gilmore (who's wife made a small fortune selling land to a school).....you'd wonder were we wrong to ever kick the brits out!


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## Purple (16 Mar 2012)

Latrade said:


> I prefer the straw man and ad hominem approach to this TD. But for me, when you claim a full TD's salary and you claim €20K a year for travelling to and from Swords to Merrion Street, you lose the right to speak for, represent or claim to associate with the "down trodden" and "most vulnerable."
> 
> I'd buy the latest Springsteen album if I wanted to listen to the most vulnerable having their misery romanticised and condescended to by someone who lost touch with them a long time ago all in the name of their ego.



That's very unfair to Springsteen.


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## Latrade (16 Mar 2012)

Purple said:


> That's very unfair to Springsteen.


 
You're right, I take it back. He cuts the sleeves of his t-shirts, so he's still in touch. 

And I like Bruce. My favourite is that song about being a factory worker from the wrong side of town and falls in love with a girl, but her daddy doesn't like it, so they take off in an old car on a road trip. Oh wait. That's every song he's ever written.


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## Shawady (16 Mar 2012)

thedaras said:


> My mother just phoned me to say she heard Daly on radio a few minutes ago and the more Daly says about not paying the more she is inclined not to pay,because she thinks that as Daly is telling people to boycott the charge,and is a TD , mother is an OAP and believes that a TD wouldn't get her into trouble.,that as Daly said ,they wont bring people to court as there are too many involved..Is that incitement?


 
There was a priest on the radio a couple of weeks ago advising people not to pay this charge. Can't remember the programme but it was on radio one.
He could have a greater influence over the OAP group.


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## thedaras (16 Mar 2012)

Yes thats true,He may have a greater influence over the Catholic OAP group,my mother would be more inclined to listen to elected TDs..


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## michaelm (16 Mar 2012)

thedaras said:


> . . is there any chance that an incitement charge could be brought about?


Incitement to what?  There's hardly a law against it.


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## thedaras (16 Mar 2012)

To break the law..


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## michaelm (16 Mar 2012)

Surely suggesting that someone (or everyone) shouldn't register or pay a given charge on the on the basis that it is unfair or whatever couldn't be a criminal offence.  I can't believe that suggesting non-compliance with any rule or fee or even law is in itself a *criminal *offence; next step thought-police "I didn't thunk it your Honour, I swear".


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## TarfHead (16 Mar 2012)

Latrade said:


> Oh wait. That's every song he's ever written.


 


Back on message ..

I've no time for the TDs who form the Angry Wing of the Dáil. They seem to believe that the solution to the country's problems are to tax 'The Rich'. Apparently 'The Rich' have loads of untaxed income but are not allowed to be taxed cos they're all 8 foot lizards or some such other David Icke Jim Corr style conspiracy theory.

And the Household Charge is the wrong fight to try to lead the Irish people to the barricades.


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## thedaras (16 Mar 2012)

michealm, I see what you mean,however these are TDs telling us to ignore the Government, On the one hand we have the government telling us it must be paid and then we have TDs telling us to ignore the law..


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## Time (18 Mar 2012)

There is nothing stopping people with convictions being TDs. Look at the SF gathering.


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## Purple (19 Mar 2012)

Time said:


> There is nothing stopping people with convictions being TDs. Look at the SF gathering.



Good point; Clare Daly never murdered anyone, robbed any banks or ordered anyone shot in the head and buried on a beach.


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## ajapale (19 Mar 2012)

Is_ Incitement_ a crime in Ireland?


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## thedaras (19 Mar 2012)

Good point..I know there is an incitement to hatred charge :
http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Ir...tred-of-Travellers-on-Facebook-125943568.html


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## TarfHead (20 Mar 2012)

There were a few people in Dublin City on Saturday, near the parade route, handing out leaflets about the HC.

I enjoyed saying to them "_No thanks, I've already paid_"


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## One (20 Mar 2012)

michaelm said:


> Surely suggesting that someone (or everyone) shouldn't register or pay a given charge on the on the basis that it is unfair or whatever couldn't be a criminal offence. I can't believe that suggesting non-compliance with any rule or fee or even law is in itself a *criminal *offence; next step thought-police "I didn't thunk it your Honour, I swear".


 
I agree with much of this, but I think the TD's are going too far here. I don't agree with the concept of a property tax (which will be probably be introduced next year), but if I am going to protest about it I will go to my local TD's constituency office and complain there. I won't dodge paying it, even though I will depise having to pay it. 

I know some people who don't agree with paying a TV licence and they just try to dodge it. But that is the wrong way to protest. A person has a right to protest in a peaceful and legal manner. But it must be peaceful and legal. These TD's are asking people to protest by essentially breaking the law, or so it seems to me.


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## Boyd (20 Mar 2012)

Are TDs exempt from this charge? 

[broken link removed]


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## TarfHead (20 Mar 2012)

username123 said:


> Are TDs exempt from this charge?
> 
> [broken link removed]


 
I've heard that they're not. What is exempt is residential properties owned, by office, by a Government Minister. That is different to residential properties owned personally.

I suppose it doesn't make sense for a Government department to pay the HC for such properties; there's no net benefit for the State.


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## DB74 (20 Mar 2012)

TarfHead said:


> I've heard that they're not. What is exempt is residential properties owned, by office, by a Government Minister. That is different to residential properties owned personally.
> 
> I suppose it doesn't make sense for a Government department to pay the HC for such properties; there's no net benefit for the State.



Plenty of examples of transactions taking place where there is no net benefit to the State yet the transaction still has to take place, especially in the VAT sphere of taxation


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## ninsaga (20 Mar 2012)

So if I don't pay - because some TD's say i shouldn't, then where are these same people going to be when I rack up extra charges as a result? Are they going to pay the penalties for me?


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## thedaras (20 Mar 2012)

I thought this was an interesting point made by Leo Varadkar:

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/varadkar-people-have-responsibility-to-obey-the-law-544219.html



> "But people also do have a responsibility to obey the law - and you can't break the law one day and then expect the law to be able to protect you the next day.
> 
> "You can't refuse to pay your taxes one day, and then expect to be able to draw on other people's taxes when you need to avail of services," he added.


.

On the other hand ,this is what the unions are telling us:

It looks like the campaign against paying the household charge is being furthered by the unions:



> The Civil and Public Service Union (CPSU) and the Dublin Council of Trade Unions are also opposing the charge.
> 
> 
> > Des Derwin from the Dublin Council of Trade Unions admits his organisation is asking its members to defy the law.
> ...


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## TarfHead (20 Mar 2012)

ninsaga said:


> So if I don't pay - because some TD's say i shouldn't


 
I can not think of any area of my life where I would be guided by the advice of Joe Higgins, Clare Daly, Thomas Pringle, Mick Wallace, Richard Boyd-Barrett, etc.


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## Time (20 Mar 2012)

I can see it now:

Member of the Public: "Hello Gardaí?, I would like to report a burglary.
Garda: "What is your address and PPSN?"
MOP gives details.
Garda "It appears you have not paid your household charge, therefore we are unable to help you!".


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## thedaras (20 Mar 2012)

I repeat:"You can't refuse to pay your taxes one day, and then expect to be able to draw on other people's taxes when you need to avail of services,"( Leo V).

So others pay the tax, that some others wont pay,yet somehow they get the same services as the rest of us..dont think so..some of us are fed up picking up the tab..


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## blueband (20 Mar 2012)

TarfHead said:


> And the Household Charge is the wrong fight to try to lead the Irish people to the barricades.


i wouldn't be so sure about that giving the way the figures are looking!


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## Pique318 (21 Mar 2012)

thedaras said:


> some of us are fed up picking up the tab..


Agreed.
It seems that taxpayers (income tax) are the ones selected by default to cover everything.
The rest are "the most vulnerable in society" and shouldn't expect to have to contribute anything. Shame on those who even suggest it. For shame !!


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## ajapale (21 Mar 2012)

Topic Reminder. Incitement charge for those inciting people not to pay the household charge?

Can anyone point out the regluation/law/practice in Ireland which would allow those encouraging non payment of the HC (precursor property tax) to be charged with "_Incitement_"?


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## csirl (21 Mar 2012)

> "It's always been a tradition… that (the breaking of) certain laws and civil disobedience have had their place so it's in that tradition," he said.
> "It's always been a tradition… that (the breaking of) certain laws and civil disobedience have had their place so it's in that tradition," he said.
> 
> "And part of this is that we are against the household and water charge," he added


 
The 'tradition' of not paying taxes is one which started when we were under British rule. Irish people, who did not regard themselves as British, refused to pay taxes to the British Crown. In this context, do we take it that these Union heads do not regard themselves as Irish?

Though, when you think about it, isnt it the dream of all socialists to live in a world wide socialist utopia where nationalities dont exist?


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## thedaras (21 Mar 2012)

ajapale said:


> Can anyone point out the regluation/law/practice in Ireland which would allow those encouraging non payment of the HC (precursor property tax) to be charged with "_Incitement_"?


The only lead I can give is this;

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0315/household.html


> He told a Sinn Féin TD Jonathan O'Brien that he was *inciting people* not to pay the charge and* therefore to break the law*.


So as far as I can see there is no specific law which covers not paying the household charge,but rather an incitement to break the law..hope that clears it up.


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## michaelm (21 Mar 2012)

thedaras said:


> So as far as I can see there is no specific law which covers not paying the household charge,but rather an incitement to break the law..hope that clears it up.


Clear as mud.  I read the same quote (correctly ) to mean the exact opposite to your understanding.  The only incitement reference I can find in the Irish Statute Book regards incitement to hatred.


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## thedaras (21 Mar 2012)

So do you think that those who are encouraging people to break the law,will get away with it?
Or is it correct that if I encouraged others to break a law,which I felt was unfair,that I should get away with it?


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## michaelm (21 Mar 2012)

Both methinks.


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## thedaras (21 Mar 2012)

Maybe Ill give it a go..


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## Time (21 Mar 2012)

There is no law against encouraging civil disobedience.


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## Purple (21 Mar 2012)

Time said:


> There is no law against encouraging civil disobedience.



Is that the same thing?


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## Time (21 Mar 2012)

Yes.


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## Purple (21 Mar 2012)

Time said:


> Yes.



Protesting is a form of civil disobedience. That's not against the law.
One person's civil disobedience is another's criminality.

If I disagree with the law about theft and encourage others to break into houses am I in the clear?


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## Time (21 Mar 2012)

There is no law against it strangely.


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