# House-sitter in our mother's house & HSE Fair Deal?



## Silica

We are thinking of getting some one in to house-sit our mother's house, which is empty for 6 months, as she is ill in hospital waiting a place in a nursing home.  She has just been approved for the HSE Fair Deal.

We are happy to give someone the house rent-free, in exchange for them paying utility bills, and perhaps some light maintenance.  

Is this an Ok way to do this arrangement? Is it better, for them/for us, if there is a nominal rent paid?   That said, we don't want to incur extra costs of eg accounts for a formal rental agreement, and anyway, HSE will take 80% of any rent.  I guess I'm mostly worried about rights and responsibilities and issues such as insurance.

Thanks for any thoughts.


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## Threadser

I'm in the same situation and my mothers house has now been vacant for 3 years as she is in a nursing home. We recently had someone approach us and ask if they could rent the house but we had to turn them down due to the fact that 80% of the rental income would have to be paid to the Nursing home. I didn't think of the option of taking a house-sitter but I would say it would probably be a good idea to get some legal advice before you allow someone to live rent free in the house. If they live in the house for a number of years they may have certain rights to stay there and you could run into difficulties when it comes to the time when you may wish to sell the house.


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## Silica

We're thinking of a 6-month agreement now, but thanks for reminding us of the long-term implications too.

Tell the truth, we probably couldn't rent the house without rewiring it, and the kitchen is old, so we're happy to have a house sitting arrangement. The couple we have in mind have also offered to take care of the garden, so it seems like a win-win (they're from Eastern Europe, and have children back home, so they get to save on rent).

We know several families with empty homes for the same HSE reason -- I can see why the HSE set out those terms, but the net effect is empty homes.


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## Magpie

Threadser said:


> We recently had someone approach us and ask if they could rent the house but we had to turn them down due to the fact that 80% of the rental income would have to be paid to the Nursing home.



Why can you not rent it out and pay over the 80%? The cost to the HSE is reduced and you keep the rest, why would you turn it down?


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## Threadser

Magpie said:


> Why can you not rent it out and pay over the 80%? The cost to the HSE is reduced and you keep the rest, why would you turn it down?


 We have already paid 15% of the value of the house and approximately €50,000 euro in care costs before the Fair Deal came in so to be honest I have no interest in saving the HSE any money. It just wouldn't be worth the hassle of dealing with a tenant demanding repairs, paying extra insurance etc when most of the rental income from the house would have to be handed over. Short term house sitter might be an option though.


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## Silica

In our case renting wasn't an option, without major work on the house.  We're optimistic the house sitting arrangement will work though.


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## Macbeth

I heard of a case some time ago where a family was proposing to get around this issue (i.e. the HSE getting 80% of rental income) by renting to a family member and paying the rent not to the mother's estate but directly to the siblings who were due to inherit the house. I presumed that this would still be unaceptable from the HSE's point of view. Any comments?


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## ontour

Threadser said:


> I have no interest in saving the HSE any money. It just wouldn't be worth the hassle of dealing with a tenant demanding repairs, paying extra insurance etc when most of the rental income from the house would have to be handed over. Short term house sitter might be an option though.



Would the insurance not be cheaper on a tenanted house than it is on a vacant property?

The criteria you would use to select a tenant would not be 'rent maximizing', it would be getting someone who would maintain or increase the value of the property and remove hassle rather than add hassle for you.

We should all have an interest in saving the HSE money so that fewer people suffer.


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## circle

ontour said:


> We should all have an interest in saving the HSE money so that fewer people suffer.


 
+1 Any rent returned to the scheme will help one more family avail of it.


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## Woodie

ontour said:


> We should all have an interest in saving the HSE money so that fewer people suffer.


Agreed, however as the OP like many others has already had experience dealing with the HSE, it tends to be a very negative experience.  Perhaps if we started to see some of the promised real reform in this organisation and in government in general then peoples attitude may become more community minded.


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## Silica

Agree that any rent would be a welcome contribution to the HSE.  But in our case, renting wasn't an option without major work on the house, which is why we've opted for a house-sitting arrangement.   

We've still not been able to source a house-sitting agreement/lease -- so if anyone has suggestions, we'd welcome them.


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## mf1

Caretakers Agreement

CARETAKER'S AGREEMENT

I,We      

Of    c/o     

DO HEREBY ACKNOWLEDGE THAT I have been this day put into the possession of ALL THAT AND THOSE    
as Caretaker, by and for       and that  I know I am in possession of said      solely as such Caretaker of and for the said      and not under any contract of tenancy re the possession of the said    AND I HEREBY FURTHER ACKNOWLEDGE that I have UNDERTAKEN AND AGREED with the said	     to take care of the said    for him, and to preserve same from trespass and injury and to indemnify the said       against all costs, claims, proceedings or demands by reason or on account of my being in possession of the said property under this Caretaker’s Agreement  and to deliver up the possession thereof to the said     , his Heirs or Assigns, immediately when required so to do.
IT IS HEREBY AGREED AND ACKNOWLEDGED that the property has been completed to our satisfaction and that our snag list has been duly completed.
Dated 		day of				
Signed ________________________________
Solicitor Witness.
Name ___________________________
Address __________________________
	________________________________
	_________________________________
Occupation ______________________________ 

mf


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## Omega

Macbeth said:


> ...paying the rent not to the mother's estate but directly to the siblings...


I can't imagine that this would be legally acceptable.


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## Bronte

Magpie said:


> Why can you not rent it out and pay over the 80%? The cost to the HSE is reduced and you keep the rest, why would you turn it down?


 
Wouldn't one have to pay tax on the 100% rent (or thereabouts presumably it's mortgage free). No one would go down the tricky road of being a landlord for a supposed 20% surplus. You'd never end up with a penny of the 20% and a whole heap of headaches.

Caretakers agreement sounds like the right way to go.


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## Threadser

Bronte said:


> Wouldn't one have to pay tax on the 100% rent (or thereabouts presumably it's mortgage free). No one would go down the tricky road of being a landlord for a supposed 20% surplus. You'd never end up with a penny of the 20% and a whole heap of headaches.


 Exactly, that's why no one in the right mind would go down that route!


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## Silica

mf1 said:


> Caretakers Agreement
> 
> CARETAKER'S AGREEMENT
> 
> mf



Belated thanks for that, it looks nice and simple.


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## mefein

I have a house lying vacant which I intend selling later in the year.  Can I allow a couple to live in it rent free in the meantime without incurring any tax problems? There is no mortgage on the house but if its occupied insurance will be ok. 

Thanks for any information. Do I need to contact a solicitor and register tenants with problem?


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## Silica

SFAIK, there are no tax implications if no money changes hands?   However, I don't know about registering "tenants" in this case -- does it constitute a tenancy?  

We have some one caretaking our mother's house, but didn't register with the PRTB -- according to PRTB (https://www.prtb.ie/faq.aspx#Q14) "A dwelling that is occupied rent free" is exempt from registering.


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## Westgolf

*fair deal*

Is it not the case that HSE has a charge on the house for the 15% only ? OP's parent is still the owner of the house so why would 80% of any rent be going to the HSE ?

westman


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## Silica

The HSE interest in the house is capped -- but they count any rent as income, and take 80% of any income (OAPension included).


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## PaddyW

Hi Silica, did you get a house sitter?


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## mefein

Thank you.


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## Silica

Yes @PaddyW, we had a couple in mind at the outset. They have been in the house since last summer, and all is working out fine.  It's a huge relief actually: the house is occupied, the garden is cared for, and a nice couple in need have a home.


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## Sue Ellen

Do ESB bill/Gas etc. need to changed over also to prevent any large bills being run up or would this cause problems with the HSE arrangement?


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## Silica

Yes, we transferred all bills to the house sitters, but I suppose that would depend on your situation.  I don't see it causing any problems with the HSE.


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## Barry McCabe

Sorry for bringing up an old thread, but we find ourselves in the same situation about getting some to house sit my mothers house.  Did you use any form of contract for your housesitters?  We are cautious about the process and want to make sure we are well protected.

Thanks!


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## elcato

Are your house sitters paying the Local Property Tax as well ? Once someone is living in the property it does not exempt the place from LPT.


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## Digger123

Silica said:


> We are thinking of getting some one in to house-sit our mother's house, which is empty for 6 months, as she is ill in hospital waiting a place in a nursing home.  She has just been approved for the HSE Fair Deal.
> 
> We are happy to give someone the house rent-free, in exchange for them paying utility bills, and perhaps some light maintenance.
> 
> Is this an Ok way to do this arrangement? Is it better, for them/for us, if there is a nominal rent paid?   That said, we don't want to incur extra costs of eg accounts for a formal rental agreement, and anyway, HSE will take 80% of any rent.  I guess I'm mostly worried about rights and responsibilities and issues such as insurance.
> 
> Thanks for any thoughts.


Hi Silica, 
I know this is a really old thread, I am wondering if you might be able to help me, I am in a similar situation now and am wondering how you have managed the house sitter situation over the years? 

Thanks


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## Slim

Digger123 said:


> Hi Silica,
> I know this is a really old thread, I am wondering if you might be able to help me, I am in a similar situation now and am wondering how you have managed the house sitter situation over the years?
> 
> Thanks


We have similar but with a grandchild of the nursing home resident, two at different times. In the first case, the girlfriend of the grandchild 'rented' the house, the grandchild moved in also, at a nominal rent which was almost entirely offset by improvements to the house. Second grandchild paying a nominal rent just to keep the place warm. There are no checks on this.


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## Sue Ellen

@Digger123 

Welcome to AAM.

Unfortunately Silica does not appear to have logged into AAM since 2015 so not likely that you will get a reply,


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## twofor1

When the original poster asked the question, the Fair Deal rule was if the house is sold the proceeds of the sale would be assessed indefinitely, so many opted to leave their homes unoccupied or maybe got a house sitter.​Since last year, that rule has changed, the home can now be sold and the net proceeds will qualify for the 3 year cap.​If your circumstances allow it, selling might now be a good option worth considering.​
If you sell your home while in care;​If you sell your home while you are in care, the net proceeds of sale will also qualify for the 3-year cap.

https://www2.hse.ie/services/fair-deal-scheme/the-3-year-cap.html


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