# Virus was in Italy by December



## odyssey06 (19 Jun 2020)

The coronavirus was already present in two large cities in northern Italy in December, over two months before the first case was detected, a national health institute study of waste water has found. Researchers discovered genetic traces of Sars-CoV-2 - as the virus is officially known - in samples of waste water collected in Milan and Turin at the end of last year, and Bologna in January, the ISS institute said in a statement. Italy's first known native case was discovered mid-February...
ISS water quality expert Giuseppina La Rosa and her team examined 40 waste water samples from October 2019 to February 2020.
The results, confirmed in two different laboratories by two different methods, showed the presence of SARS-CoV-2 in samples taken* in Milan and Turin on 18 December 2019* and in Bologna on 29 January 2020. Samples from October and November 2019 were negative, showing the virus had yet to arrive, La Rosa said.
The data was in line with results obtained from retrospective analysis of samples of patients hospitalised in France, which found cases positive for SARS-CoV-2 dating back to the end of December, the institute said. 









						Virus in Italy by December - waste water study
					

The coronavirus was already present in two large cities in northern Italy in December, over two months before the first case was detected, a national health institute study of waste water has found.




					www.rte.ie


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## Leo (19 Jun 2020)

Similar stories coming from other countries from that time period to, including the US.


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## Drakon (19 Jun 2020)

I thought the first case in Italy has always been December 2019? Nowt new there?!
Hasn’t this been common knowledge for at least a month? And the original “Patient 0” from China had a corresponding Patient 0 from Bavaria around the same time?

France went from Feb 2020 back to Dec 2019?

And Chine the summer of 2019?


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## odyssey06 (19 Jun 2020)

Drakon said:


> I thought the first case in Italy has always been December 2019? Nowt new there?!
> Hasn’t this been common knowledge for at least a month? And the original “Patient 0” from China had a corresponding Patient 0 from Bavaria around the same time?
> France went from Feb 2020 back to Dec 2019?
> And Chine the summer of 2019?



France's first case went back to December 2019 as they tested samples taken from patients who died then and tested it to confirm.
This Italian study is supposed to be the first confirmation of the theory that it was circulating in Italy pre January 2020.
I'm distinguishing between theories that the virus was circulating based on evidence such as hospital admissions and confirmation of that based on tests.
So if you have links confirming cases in Italy in 2019 or China in summer 2019 please bump here.


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## Drakon (20 Jun 2020)

odyssey06 said:


> So if you have links confirming cases in Italy in 2019 or China in summer 2019 please bump here.



I doubt there’s positively tested cases in China (just yet).
I’d imagine the Italians are exploring some of their pneumonia deaths from 2019 a la France.


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## Slim (20 Jun 2020)

If the virus was in Italy in December, how come there was not an earlier surge in Italy and those other countries? I get a few people telling me that they or their loved ones must have had Covid in December or January.


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## joe sod (20 Jun 2020)

Drakon said:


> Hasn’t this been common knowledge for at least a month? And the original “Patient 0” from China had a corresponding Patient 0 from Bavaria around the same time?



therefore the missing piece of information in all this is when did the virus actually begin in China, what they have identified as "Patient 0" was probably "Patient 100" or "Patient 1000", I dont think we are ever going to find this out as its politically sensitive information now.


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## odyssey06 (20 Jun 2020)

Slim said:


> If the virus was in Italy in December, how come there was not an earlier surge in Italy and those other countries? I get a few people telling me that they or their loved ones must have had Covid in December or January.



Yeah interesting angle. The sample results don't give any indication of how sensitive it was, how many people were likely to have been infected at that stage.
Maybe it was confirned to certain groups e.g. chinese migrant workers in textile hubs. It hadn't hit critical mass in terms of circulating. 
Or it was a milder strain. I thought I had read articles previously that there had been higher than usual admissions in some Italian regions pre-Christmas but can't track them down now as search results are flooded with this latest news.

Similarly there was the case in France December where they retested a patient's samples from December who had no travel history but unusual respiratory symptoms and it tested positive... was it lab contamination?








						French doctors say first Covid-19 case might have been as far back as December
					

The case in question occurred about a month before the first cases were officially confirmed in Europe.




					www.thejournal.ie


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## Drakon (21 Jun 2020)

December 18 in Italy:









						Italian sewage study suggests Covid-19 was there in December
					

Samples taken in Milan and Turin showed the presence of virus before first case reported in China




					www.irishtimes.com


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## RedOnion (21 Jun 2020)

odyssey06 said:


> The results, confirmed in two different laboratories by two different methods, showed the presence of SARS-CoV-2 in samples taken* in Milan and Turin on 18 December 2019*





Drakon said:


> December 18 in Italy:


Great to see that cleared up. 2 articles, about the same study, confirm the same date...


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## Drakon (21 Jun 2020)

RedOnion said:


> Great to see that cleared up. 2 articles, about the same study, confirm the same date...



For anyone with the RTÉ News Now app, clicking on the link in the former post will not work. It will just launch the app’s homepage. 

Hence the convenience of the second article, from The Irish Times, which will launch issue free.

Welcome to the one-click world 
(Software Engineering was one of my previous occupations. Linkage errors like this are a bugbear of mine. Insufficient software testing and possibly too much inter-relationship between the IT Development and QA departments, IMHO).
I wouldn’t expect everyone to understand.


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