# Ulster Bank "sits" on my money for a month, to my cost - comeback?



## DrMoriarty (25 Jun 2013)

G'day all, looking for an opinion on the following scenario. Sorry, it's rather long-winded...

Last May I switched current account from UB to PTSB, but kept an old savings a/c open with UB. I had written to my branch a week or so before the switch asking them _not _to issue a renewal chequebook, since I had just written my last two cheques, and asking them to close the current a/c after these had been presented and cleared. A week later I received the unwanted chequebook in the post and returned it to them, requesting a refund of the duty. Fair enough, I figured, the letters crossed in the post or the chequebook-issuing department hadn't been notified by the branch not to issue one — no big deal.

Then I logged on and discovered that, contrary to my written instruction, UB had jumped the gun and closed the current account earlier than I'd asked, leaving me with two uncashed cheques "out there" and likely to be presented (and "bounced"). Fortunately, I was able to contact the two recipients of these cheques and ask them to tear them up and send them new cheques from my new PTSB a/c. A slightly more annoying cock-up by UB, but one I could let pass. However...

A week later, a third party sent me a fairly substantial funds transfer from Barclays in the UK (£4K/€5K approx.) — but sent it to the now closed UB account. He went back to his Barclays branch the same day, but the money had left and they told him it that if the receiving account was no longer operative the payment would be rejected and the funds should be returned within a few days and the charges reversed. This was confirmed to me verbally by staff at my old UB branch, because I dropped in to ask (having been unable to get through by 'phone). They said that no transfer had been received prior to the account being closed and that if one came now, since it couldn't be re-directed to my remaining UB savings account, it would be returned to Barclays. 

He checked regularly over the past 3-4 weeks, but no sign of anything. 

Today, Barclays told him that they’d finally contacted Ulster Bank directly, as they were worried about the missing money, and discovered that the money was in fact received by Ulster bank and was “being held” for me. So I should go to my old UB branch with proof of ID and proof of the transfer, and that that would be the quickest way to get the money. 

I’ll be taking time off work to do this tomorrow, and I intend to let the manager have a piece of my mind. During the month-long delay — while they kindly “held onto” the money for me, I received no contact of any kind from UB. They had my PTSB account details, and a letter dated 17 May instructing them to transfer my closing balance to that PTSB a/c. They knew that I had another savings account with them, but decided not to deposit the money into that instead, even though they had prematurely closed the current account for which it was destined. Instead, they literally just “sat on” these funds in a holding account, said nothing to Barclays, said nothing to me, and just waited for somebody to come looking, I guess?

In the meantime, in the absence of these funds, I ended up — for the first time ever — not being able to clear my credit card balance, at the start of June, and having to borrow cash from friends and colleagues in order to avoid missing our mortgage repayment. We have been emptying the pennies jar for day-to-day expenses, and I had to request an increased credit limit from my credit card provider (AIB) because I started getting hit with over-limit fees, due to the rolled-over unpaid balance from June. Between credit card interest and fees, I am out of pocket to the tune of €112 — not to mention a huge amount of inconvenience, embarrassment and wasted time — as a direct result of Ulster Bank’s failures, and I intend to seek recompense for at least the monetary loss demonstrably attributable to same. 

However, going on past experience, and particularly given that I am no longer an “valued (fee-paying) customer” of that fine establishment, I fully expect to be given the brush-off. If that happens, I intend to lodge a formal complaint and follow it up with the Ombudsman if necessary.

So — if you’re still reading at this stage!  — what I’m wondering is whether anyone here could refer me to any relevant sections of banking codes or regulations, consumer legislation etc. that might bolster my case? I don’t want to waste time arguing this with the branch manager, who is particularly smug and pompous ; I’d much prefer to simply quote him chapter and verse and invite him to do the right thing.

Or, _a contrario_, do you think I have a case at all? Was there any obligation on Ulster Bank to act otherwise than to just sit on the money and wait to be approached? No contact, no attempt to transfer the funds either to my PTSB account _or _to my UB savings account, where I could have seen the balance online? (this savings account has had a nil balance for years, but they keep sending me paper statements, despite several attempts on my part to get them to save their money and the environment).

I no longer expect probity or even simple human courtesy from these guys, but I would be amazed if their conduct in this was legitimate, and as I said I have suffered a financial loss directly as a result of their error/failure/deliberate omission.


----------



## Ceist Beag (26 Jun 2013)

I'm not sure if this will help DrMoriarty but the central bank has a code of conduct on account switching which clearly states that the account you are closing should only be closed on the switching date. Did you fill out an account switching pack with PTSB when switching your accounts and as part of this did you agree the switching date? If so UB are in breach of the code of conduct so you could probably use this in your case for compensation (based on what you said it sounds like if the account closed on the agreed date none of these issues would have arisen). The code of conduct is [broken link removed]


----------



## DrMoriarty (26 Jun 2013)

Thanks for the reply, Ceist Beag, and the link.

I'll double-check my files, but I _think _that on the switching form provided to PTSB I in fact indicated that UB should leave the old account _open_, and I separately instructed UB by letter on 17 May that I would confirm a closing date only _after _the outstanding cheques had been cleared (which I knew would take at least a fortnight, since one of them was given to a newlywed nephew then on his honeymoon):

Instead, they closed it on 27 May, as soon as the DDs had been transferred over to PTSB.

What I'll find out first from UB, before going into the full story, is the date on which they received that transfer from Barclays. I reckon it can only have been a day or two later, from what the sender told me. 

Surely there's some obligation on a bank to inform a customer when a substantial external payment arrives in their name for an account that has recently been closed? (particularly when the customer has another account still with them!)

Or can they just play finders keepers, say nothing and let the money lie "resting in their account" as they did?

Anyway, I'll let you know how I get on.


----------



## Brendan Burgess (26 Jun 2013)

> Surely there's some obligation on a bank to inform a customer when a  substantial external payment arrives in their name for an account that  has recently been closed? (particularly when the customer has another  account still with them!)


I think you don't really appreciate the complexity and busy-ness of banking. 

The bank processes hundreds of thousands of transactions every day.  While this was an important transaction for you, to the system it was just another payment received which had no obvious home to go to. 

I am surprised that they didn't just bounce it when the account was closed. 

Do you not have a case against the sender who sent it to the wrong account? 

Maybe someone interfered and put it in a holding account to sort out later. 

The moral of the story is 


  don't close your old bank account until all outstanding transactions have been completed.
Stop using cheques - they cause too many problems
Make sure anyone who is transferring money to you has the correct bank account details
Brendan


----------



## Mrs Vimes (26 Jun 2013)

Brendan Burgess said:


> don't close your old bank account until all outstanding transactions have been completed.
> Brendan



Dr M didn't close the account, he merely informed UB that he would be closing the account when his business (cheques, etc) was finished.


----------



## Brendan Burgess (26 Jun 2013)

> I had written to my branch a week or so before the switch asking them _not _to  issue a renewal chequebook, since I had just written my last two  cheques, and asking them to close the current a/c after these had been  presented and cleared.



I think it's unrealistic of Dr M to expect the bank to be able to handle a conditional request like this.


----------



## DrMoriarty (26 Jun 2013)

Point taken about underestimating the volume of transactions processed daily by the bank, Brendan, but Mrs Vimes is right. 
From my letter of 17 May:


> _Permanent TSB have been asked to switch over my existing DD mandates on or around the 24th of this month, and when that process has been completed I’d like to close my Ulster Bank a/c no. XXXXXXX, *once all outstanding cheques have been cleared, *and transfer the closing balance to my new current account in the following references:
> <snip>
> 
> I would be grateful if you could now also advise the relevant department not to issue me a replacement chequebook as they normally would when I reach the end of the current one. As it happens, I have just recently written the last two cheques in the book (nos. 00019 and 00020, each for €XYZ), so if these being presented would normally trigger a new chequebook to issue automatically, perhaps you might be able to head it off at the pass, so to speak?
> ...


Maybe it's unrealistic of me to expect a bank to contact a customer (unless it's marketing or sales calls), but I was assured in the branch about a fortnight ago that _no_ transfer had been presented to the old account, and I know that it left Barclays more than a week before that.

I called in to them again this morning and they're investigating. It "might take a few days". 
In the meantime, they still have my money, while I continue to accrue interest on my credit card balance.


----------



## Brendan Burgess (26 Jun 2013)

Banks and their systems are designed to process a mass of transactions.

When something out of the ordinary occurs e.g.  a contingent request to close an account, they can't handle it. 

I don't see why you didn't wait until everything was done before closing the account. 

Brendan


----------



## DrMoriarty (26 Jun 2013)

I _didn't_ close the account, though!


----------



## Gerry Canning (26 Jun 2013)

I think when it comes to Banking, do not rely on common sense, do not rely on Consumer Codes or transfer codes that Banks are supposed to adhere to.
It is a bit unrealistic of you to ask Bank to hold (until a future date) and it is stupid of Bank to in any way say they will hold (until that future date)

The Moral with Banks is {buyer beware} , unless you have the energy to keep after them. 

I wish you luck chasing them and under transfer codes you probably have an answerable case against them. Is it worth the hassle ?


----------



## DrMoriarty (26 Jun 2013)

It's worth over €100, and believe me, the hassle already created for me by Ulster Bank far exceeds the effort of lodging a written complaint and following it through. 

I have gone after lesser sums purely on principle.


----------



## Gerry Canning (26 Jun 2013)

DrMoriarty said:


> It's worth over €100, and believe me, the hassle already created for me by Ulster Bank far exceeds the effort of lodging a written complaint and following it through.
> 
> I have gone after lesser sums purely on principle.


........................................................................ 

I hear you and if you have the energy I applaud you .

Good luck and keep me posted.


----------



## Brendan Burgess (26 Jun 2013)

DrMoriarty said:


> I _didn't_ close the account, though!



I am now completely confused. If you did not ask them to close the account and they closed it, then you have a valid complaint.

But in your original post, you did say you asked them to close it.



> *I had written to my branch a week or so before the switch* asking them _not _to  issue a renewal chequebook, since I had just written my last two  cheques, *and asking them to close the current a/c after these had been  presented and cleared*.



I had not realised that you  had used the Switching Code, in which case it is totally unreasonable to expect them to make an exception for you. 

It's not like going into a sandwich shop and asking for ham and cheese sandwich with butter on only one side of the bread. It's a computerised system designed to deal quickly and efficiently with the vast bulk of transactions.  

Banking is complicated enough without asking them to make human interventions to faciliate two outstanding cheques and a suspected lodgment. 

Brendan


----------



## T McGibney (26 Jun 2013)

> I had written to my branch a week or so before the switch asking them not to   issue a renewal chequebook, since I had just written my last two   cheques, and asking them to close the current a/c after these had been   presented and cleared.





Brendan Burgess said:


> I think it's unrealistic of Dr M to expect the bank to be able to handle a conditional request like this.



Sorry, I'm with Brendan on this. 

Firstly, when communicating with any large process-based organisation it is important that all communications are clear and understandable. Its not surprising that busy staff can occasionally misinterpret unnecessarily complicated instructions, particularly ones relating to tasks that cannot by their nature be dealt with on the day they are received.

Secondly, in any administration environment, it is impossible to allow for and indemnify against all contingencies. 

In the course of my work, when dealing with companies that are winding down, I regularly advise clients to bring their company bank account balances up or down to zero within a specifc timescale. This is a pre-condition to applying for a voluntary strikeoff, and it is important to do this in good time in advance of the next annual return date to avoid having to incur the cost of another year's accounts and annual returns. 

It regularly happens that the client fails to do so, usually because of some contingency that they had underestimated or forgotten at the time we set out our plans. An accrued bank charge is a common culprit. An unexpected debit or lodgment is another.

This isn't anyone's fault in particular yet I've learned over the years to caution clients that this sort of plan sometimes goes awry.


----------



## DrMoriarty (26 Jun 2013)

Just a punter's point of view here, but...

I don't see what was so inordinately complex about my letter stating that "I’d like to close my Ulster Bank a/c no. XXXXXXX, _once all outstanding cheques have been cleared _(...) [please] contact me in a couple of weeks’ time [i.e. in early June] _to confirm that everything is order and the account can be closed_". I wade through far more convoluted verbiage in their written communications.

I _didn't _instruct them to close the account. On the PTSB switching form, I ticked the box telling them to keep it open — precisely so that I could make sure that everything had transitioned across smoothly (I've switched bank a number of times and learned not to trust any of them to execute this as they should). I didn't ask them to hold off in case a vaguely expected transfer from the UK might happen to arrive, I said that I would contact them again to close the account "some time before the end of June".

Ulster Bank went ahead and closed my current account without, or rather contrary to my instruction. On the 27th May. 

In the course of the following week, a large FX transfer arrives (the sender was hardly to know the account had been closed; I only discovered it myself by chance when I logged on. The written notice from UB arrived about a week later, which is when I called to the branch to try to find out where the Barclays transfer had gone to).

UB had two very simple options at that point  — lodge the money to my other account with them, or transfer it to PTSB as they did with the closing balance on the current account (albeit prematurely). Or, _as they told me in the branch would happen_, return the payment to Barclays. The guy in the UK has been ringing his branch for three weeks asking about this, and it took a call from Barclays UK to establish that UB had in fact had this money all along. 

I'm half-expecting the branch manager to tell me now that there's an administrative charge for finding out where they put my money and giving it back to me.

Because they're worth it.


----------



## T McGibney (26 Jun 2013)

DrMoriarty said:


> Just a punter's point of view here, but...
> 
> I don't see what was so inordinately complex about my letter stating that "I’d like to close my Ulster Bank a/c no. XXXXXXX, _once all outstanding cheques have been cleared _(...) [please] contact me in a couple of weeks’ time [i.e. in early June] _to confirm that everything is order and the account can be closed_". I wade through far more convoluted verbiage in their written communications.



You're right it isn't inordinately complex, but the fact remains that the simpler and clearer the terms on which you communicate with a bank or any other service provider, the lesser the risk of them misunderstanding you. 

The fact that banks themselves use convoluted verbiage in their own written communication is neither here nor there. Their frontline staff don't write that stuff.


----------



## DrMoriarty (26 Jun 2013)

Don't worry, Tommy, lesson learned! 

My reason for writing to them at all was simply to try to prevent the automatic issue of a renewal chequebook that I'd no longer need, and as what I suppose you'd call a "courtesy"... the opening lines of my letter of May 17th were:



> Dear Sir/Madam,
> Following Ulster Bank’s announced introduction of current account fees I have decided to move my personal banking to Permanent TSB, whose switching team will be contacting you shortly if they have not already. I’d like to thank you and your colleagues for your excellent service to date and stress that the move is due only to the new fees structure.


But the misunderstanding about the account closing date isn't the only issue here. I still don't see what justifies UB just holding on to the transferred €5K and making no effort to return or re-direct it. It wasn't complicated; a simple call from international payments to the account-holding branch would have avoided the whole problem. It's on this point that I'd like to find a regulation or code to quote to them...


----------



## Jim2007 (26 Jun 2013)

DrMoriarty said:


> UB had two very simple options at that point  — lodge the money to my other account with them, or transfer it to PTSB as they did with the closing balance on the current account (albeit prematurely).



Actually under SWIFT rules the bank has no choice but to return the money to the senders bank and this normally takes 3 or 4 weeks to wash out.  And in most cases bank staff are not informed of such events.

TBH I find the whole exercise amazing, you expect the bank to dedicate someone to do a whole lot of manual work on your behalf to ease the processing of moving to another bank, so that you can avoid paying for their services....... you have heard of the saying "There is not such thing as a free lunch", right?


----------



## Gerry Canning (26 Jun 2013)

Jim2007 said:


> Actually under SWIFT rules the bank has no choice but to return the money to the senders bank and this normally takes 3 or 4 weeks to wash out. And in most cases bank staff are not informed of such events.
> 
> TBH I find the whole exercise amazing, you expect the bank to dedicate someone to do a whole lot of manual work on your behalf to ease the processing of moving to another bank, so that you can avoid paying for their services....... you have heard of the saying "There is not such thing as a free lunch", right?


................................................................................................
Jim , 

I hear your comments and on balance I agree, but

If the Codes Banks operate under are not followed ,what is the point in having Codes ? 
Maybe the Bank has broken no Code in this case.
If they havn,t methinks that is a first !!!!


----------



## SPC100 (26 Jun 2013)

While not answering your question here are my views;



> Instead, they closed it on 27 May, as soon as the DDs had been transferred over to PTSB.



A possible simple explanation for the early close, would be if PTSB (in error), requested UB close the account as part of the switch....Despite what I had put on my PTSB switcher form, I was asked over the phone by ptsb  if I wanted them to request the account close or not.

The Instructions do sound a bit complex for a no frills service, better not to have mentioned "closing" at all, and left that until you were ready to actually close the account.

I believe, It should be easy for the bank to automate handling for payments arriving for recently closed account. They have plenty of options they could implement automatically; return the money to sender, issue a letter to old account holder, or send money to a forwarding account of old client, or issue a cheque in the post to old client. The most beneficial option for the bank, is to hang on to the money for as long as possible and say as little as possible.

I'd be confident they have automated the handing for payment requests for recently closed accounts (Cheques, direct debit requests etc.,)


----------



## DrMoriarty (26 Jun 2013)

Jim2007 said:


> Actually *under SWIFT rules the bank has no choice but to return the money to the senders bank* and this normally takes 3 or 4 weeks to wash out.  And in most cases bank staff are not informed of such events.


But they didn't do this, either. And the new URBPO rules won't be implemented until 1 July 2013. Any idea where I can find the existing rules? Each bank seems to do its own thing, as far as I can see.



Jim2007 said:


> TBH I find the whole exercise amazing, you expect the bank to dedicate someone to do a whole lot of manual work on your behalf to ease the processing of moving to another bank, so that you can avoid paying for their services....... you have heard of the saying "There is not such thing as a free lunch", right?


With respect, I have to question your logic, Jim. I don't feel I'm getting a "free lunch" from UB, PTSB, or any other bank. And the process of switching would have been far easier without their "services", as it turns out — they've messed up just about every possible detail of it, actually. If I had paid for this work, I'd be seeking a refund.

_If_ I'm careful and manage my own accounts prudently, I can avoid current account transaction fees and standing charges, for the time being. In return, the bank gets the use of my money, month in, month out, for free. If I overdraw by a single cent, or miss a DD payment, or exceed my credit card limit, they have plenty of scope to (legitimately) hit me with charges far in excess of the real cost to them of my oversight. 

A bit like Ryanair, when a customer loses or forgets their boarding pass (what was it Michael O'Leary called these people again?).  

Banks offer a product into the marketplace because they feel it will — on balance — benefit their bottom line/deposits/market share. You make it sound almost as though you feel I've been taking advantage of poor old Ulster Bank?


----------



## Jim2007 (26 Jun 2013)

DrMoriarty said:


> You make it sound almost as though you feel I've been taking advantage of poor old Ulster Bank?



No I think it is unrealistic to expect any bank to provide free services, most mainland European banks have much higher requirements before you qualify for free banking!  For instance my bank here in Switzerland, requires a minimum daily balance of 25,000 on deposit.


----------



## DrMoriarty (26 Jun 2013)

Fair enough. How many times have they been bailed out by the Swiss taxpayer?


----------



## Gerry Canning (27 Jun 2013)

DrMoriarty said:


> Fair enough. How many times have they been bailed out by the Swiss taxpayer?


...............................................................................
Touchee !!!!


----------



## dub_nerd (27 Jun 2013)

The tax payer bailouts don't entitle us to free banking. Indeed, the banks are still in a gigantic hole, and are busy shedding staff and reducing services. Customer service was bad before. It is about to get _horrible_.


----------



## zag (27 Jun 2013)

I'm with the great continental steamer on this one.  He didn't instruct the bank to close his account, they closed it.  He instructed them to switch DDs,SOs, etc . . . to another bank, per the standards and said he would advise when he wanted to close the account.

If they got his letter and there were too many words in it for them to understand or it contained a request they couldn't facilitate then they should have contacted him to point this out.

You can bet that if he had moved credit card and a charge for €3,000 came in, they wouldn't be sitting on it for weeks wondering where to send it.

I had a similar(ish) issue with BoI when a term account closed.  I sent them a letter in advance of the closing saying what to do with the money (transfer it out of BoI) and they somehow managed to lose it & sit on my money.  Then they lost the next instruction I sent.  And they even managed to lose the 3rd one that I physically dropped into the branch.  I was *not* happy.  However, when they have your money there's very little you can do, other than (as DrM plans) lodging a formal complaint.

I've had similar money getting lost issues with AIB too, through my own fault.  The fact that the branch apparently had *no* visibility into lost transaction was a surprise to me.  I knew the amount, the date, the (incorrect) account number, the sort code, the sending account, everything and *still* they were unable to tell me for days where it was and when it was going back to the sender.

z


----------



## DrMoriarty (12 Jul 2013)

Well, I'm off on hols in a few days, so thought I'd post an update. 

It's now been 38 days since the money left the Barclays UK account, and to date neither Barclays nor Ulster Bank can account for where it's gone. As a final resort, my UK counterpart has had no option but to issue a "tracing recall" from Barclays International Payments. This took over an hour to arrange, cost a further £25, has no upper time limit and "does not guarantee that the money will be recovered".

So I/we'll just have to wait until this unfolds and it becomes clear whether the fault lies with Barclays or Ulster Bank. From previous experience, I'd say it's probably the latter. In fact, I'd lay money on it — if I had the money! 

_Edit:_ I have to add, in fairness, that the local branch manager offered his apologies for the delay and has been very proactive and attentive throughout, remaining in regular email contact, etc. I just find it quite an eye-opener, as zag has commented above, that the bank has so little visibility/control over customer transactions. The guy referred this to what he described as "senior" customer care managers, and despite having every relevant detail, including the full transaction ID, they drew a complete blank. Unless of course it turns out that the whole error is on Barcays side and that the money never came near Ulster Bank... (which would surprise me because other international payments have been sent successfully).


----------



## Gulliver (12 Jul 2013)

Had a quick scan through this thread

It seems to me that for purposes of resolving this, you must separately address the core issues
1... Issues surrounding the closing of the account
2... Issues surrounding a credit transfer to a closed account

Banks are obliged to have formal complaints procedures, and a formal complaint presented to them must be independently (within the bank) examined, and must be responded to within a specified time.  This is often the best way to get resolution of a problem.  If you do not follow this procedure, then you will not have a complaint accepted by the Financial Ombudsman

Getting a refund for unused cheques should be a simple matter - all banks have a procedure for this. The fact that the account is closed should not inhibit that refund.  There is no cost to the bank - the refund becomes a deduction for them from the next payment of medallion stamp duty.

In regard to the transfer of funds to a non-existent account, the normal Swift rules would return the payment very quickly to the payers account at Barclays.  However, it might be helpful to read section 85 and particularly 86 of the Payment Services Regulations as follows:-

_Payment transactions to payment account._

85. (1) Subject to paragraph (2), a payer’s payment service provider shall ensure that, after the time of receipt of a payment order, the amount of the relevant payment is credited to the payee’s payment service provider’s account by the end of the next business day.

(2) A payer and a payment service provider may agree on a period of no longer than 3 business days instead of the period specified in paragraph (1).

(3) Paragraph (2) and any agreement made in reliance on it cease to have effect at the end of 31 December 2011.

(4) The periods specified in paragraphs (1) and (2) are extended by one business day in relation to paper-initiated payment transactions.

(5) The payment service provider of the payee concerned shall value-date the payment and make the amount of the payment available to the payee’s payment account, in accordance with Regulation 88, after the payment service provider has received the funds.

(6) A payee’s payment service provider shall transmit a payment order initiated by or through the payee to the payer’s payment service provider concerned within the period agreed between the payee and the payee’s payment service provider so as to enable settlement, as far as direct debit is concerned, on the agreed due date.

_Absence of payee’s payment account with the payment service provider._

86. Where a payee does not have a payment account with a payment service provider, a payment service provider who receives funds for the payee shall make the funds available to the payee within the period specified in or determined in accordance with Regulation 85.


----------



## DrMoriarty (12 Jul 2013)

Many thanks, Gulliver, that's very helpful.


----------

