# Liable for full NPPR tax if let out ppr for a few months while I rent else where?



## Karolina (15 May 2011)

I'm wondering if I'm liable for the full €200 of NPPR or is there any  pro-rata payment basis if a house is my PPR for part of the year  & NPPR for the rest??

In the last 2 years (but only for 6 or 7 months of each year) I rented out the house I own and moved into rented accomodation elsewhere. 
The house is in negative equity, rent doesn't cover mortgage, but it's too small for my family now. Paying out higher rent than I'm earning. 
Tried but failed to sell last year. Don't own another property.

On enquiring from Dublin City Council helpline last week, the lady on the phone  focused on the "liabilty dates" (31 July '09, 31 March for other years).  But, judging from the NPPR website FAQ's, these dates are used to  determine _ownership _of a property for that year (& therefore liabilty for that year's charge _if _it's an NPPR), and seem to have nothing to do with determining residency in the property.
If they did, couldn't any landlord move back in for the night of 31  March thereby avoiding the full year's charge (as long as he/she didn't  own another property). Conversely, if I rent out for just a few months  around March I'm liable for the full year's fee (??).

If it was just the €200 annual fee I wouldn't be too fussed, but it  looks like I'm liable for penalties amounting to €1000 by now for '09  & '10.

As well as that, my wife rang the council in summer '09 to enquire about  this and was told we weren't liable as we only owned 1 property (the  council staff were all new to the ins & outs of this new tax back  then too). This turns out to be incorrect, but we have no way of proving  that now.

Sorry for being longwinded.  Any advice or insights greatly appreciated.


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## PaddyBloggit (15 May 2011)

Just one point I can make:

As far as I can see .... you don't have to own another property to be liable.

If you own a property but rent elsewhere you're liable as the property you own isn't your principal private residence.

Other than that I can't comment on the other queries you've brought up.


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## ajapale (15 May 2011)

I have expanded your question and understand your predicament.

Your case does not appear to be in the list of exemptions: 
Exemptions                               *Are there any exemptions from the NPPR Charge?           *


You are advised to check section 4 of the Act for detail.  However, the following abbreviated list should act as a guide:  
 Exemptions:  
1.    Principal Private Residences  
2.    Where  a person partly occupies a dwelling as his or her sole or main  residence and avails of the Revenue Commissioners’ Rent-a-Room Scheme  
3.    Discretionary trusts or corporate bodies that are accorded charitable status  
4.    Where a person is moving house and, in the process, owns two houses for a relatively short period.  
5.    Joint  ownership of a property after a divorce or separation agreement where  the second residence becomes the primary residence of one party.
6.    Where  a person who owns a principal private residence vacates the dwelling in  question because he or she is long-term incapacitated as a result of  physical or mental illness  
7.    Where  a residence is occupied rent-free by a relative of the owner and the  owner resides on the same property or within two kilometres of .the  residence in question.
8.   Where  a landlord and a Local Authority have a signed contract in place under  the Rental Accommodation Scheme for a property, on the liability date  i.e. 31st July 2009 and 31st March in 2010 and each subsequent year, the property is exempt from the NPPR charge.


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## Bronte (16 May 2011)

Karolina said:


> As well as that, my wife rang the council in summer '09 to enquire about this and was told we weren't liable as we only owned 1 property (the council staff were all new to the ins & outs of this new tax back then too). This turns out to be incorrect, but we have no way of proving that now.
> 
> .


 
That just proves that in relation to money everything should be in writing.  The penalties built into the NPPR are very clever and it is not worth not paying it.  

There is no way moving in for one night is going to get you off the hook.  If you plan on doing this make sure you get it in writing from the council/NPPR that they agree.  

What does your sentence 'paying out higher rent than I'm earning' refer to ?


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## aristotle (16 May 2011)

Bronte said:


> That just proves that in relation to money everything should be in writing. ?


 
Would it have made any difference if it was in writing in this case? I doubt you could have relied on it, it was just wrong information.


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## Bronte (16 May 2011)

If you have it in writing from the public body and it is incorrect you would not be liable for penalties etc for following that advice.  Instead the council would be at fault.


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## Karolina (16 May 2011)

Thanks for the responses.

I actually went & read the legislation & it seems I am fully liable. 
But there _is_ a perfectly legal loophole for getting out of the NPPR by simply "residing" in the house on March 31st every year.
Section 4 of the Local Government (Charges) Act 2009:
"4.—(1) A person who, on a liability date, is the owner of a residential
property shall not, in respect of that residential property, be
liable to pay the charge relating to that liability date if the residential
property is, on that date—
(a) in the case of an owner who is an individual—
(i) occupied by that individual as his or her sole or main
residence, or ......"

[Bronte, "paying out higher than I'm earning" refers to the rent I pay in the place I'm living compared to the rent I get for the place I own]

Coincidentally, our tenants moved out on 31 March 2010, but we didn't move back in fully until the week after!!

Looks like I'm going to have to write to the NPPR section of the council & explain the whole thing honestly and hope they waive some of the overdue penalties.

Anyone think this is wise/stupid?? Better ideas??  Any exerience of leniency or reasonableness when it comes to government taxes/charges??


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## Bronte (16 May 2011)

See section i, it says 'sole or main residence' that is not a loop hole.  Your main residence is the place you are renting.  

You can try writing to the council and outline who you spoke to in the past and 'nicely' state you were given incorrect advice.  You could be lucky.  Civil servants do have heart.


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## T McGibney (16 May 2011)

Karolina said:


> Looks like I'm going to have to write to the NPPR section of the council & explain the whole thing honestly and hope they waive some of the overdue penalties.



I don't understand why you feel the need to do this. You received guidance from the Council in relation to what can fairly be described as a  'grey area'. You acted in accordance with the guidance. End of.


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## Karolina (16 May 2011)

Bronte, I just meant it was a loophole in that if I'd moved back in a week earlier (i.e before 31 March) making it my sole & principal residence (which it was from April to Aug), then I wouldn't be liable. Even if I'd only moved back in for a few weeks around 31 March, the same would apply. It's a detail that can work for, as well as against, a part-time landlord.

T McGibney, I guess I don't want it hanging over me that this could come back to bite me when the penalties have risen even higher (i.e by €40 per month). It's just my say-so that I got wrong advice from some anonymous receptionist in the council, even if it is wholly possible that they may have been giving that incorrect info on this "grey area" to lots of people. Hey, sure maybe they'll waive the whole thing if I write a nice enough letter & they believe me!!


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## T McGibney (16 May 2011)

Karolina said:


> It's just my say-so that I got wrong advice from some anonymous receptionist in the council, even if it is wholly possible that they may have been giving that incorrect info on this "grey area" to lots of people.



Are you certain that their advice was indeed incorrect?


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## Greta (17 May 2011)

Is there any evidence for the council to uncover as to when exactly you moved back to the property, whether it was a week earlier or later? If your property had been rented out to the tenants on 31 March, then yes, it couldn't have been your principal private residence. But as it stands, I'd personally leave it at that unless there is some clear proof for the council to uncover and go after you.


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## R196 (17 May 2011)

Can you not just rent the room out under the "rent a room" scheme.  the council would not know that you not retaining one room as ur ppr and therefore not liable for the charge?


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## T McGibney (17 May 2011)

R196 said:


> Can you not just rent the room out under the "rent a room" scheme.  the council would not know that you not retaining one room as ur ppr and therefore not liable for the charge?



Illegally evading tax is a crime and is not condoned on this forum.


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## Karolina (17 May 2011)

I wouldn't dream if trying to evade tax, but feel this tax, & how its applied, is unfair (in my particular circumstances anyway).

The house is one-bedroom, so rent-a-room can't apply.

I'm asking the old tenants to confirm in writing that they did move out on March 31st.


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