# Ulsterbank fraud on my account or maybe IT screw up - advice please



## trustno1 (29 Aug 2012)

I noticed a transaction on my account 155kms away from where I live for a small amount of money.  Neither my wife or I were in the town the transaction occurred - we were both at home.  

UB initially told me to ignore it on the basis that the day in question was 3 July and there were up to their eyes in IT problems.  I was told to leave it for a couple of weeks and that the chances were that it would sort itself out.  3 weeks later it was still there so queried it again.  Ulsterbank advised me that it was a chip and pin transaction so card holder (or someone who had access to card and pin) must have made the transaction.  The thing is, that on the same day, my wife used the card for a transaction 1 hour and 33 minutes hours after the suspicious transaction was made.  UB wrote to us that as far as they were concerned we had breached the terms and conditions of our account on the basis that we had not maintained the security of our card and pin.

I appealled this on the basis that neither we or a 3rd party could have been in the first location and then made it back to where we live given that the distance involved was too great - the AA Route Planner estimates the journey time at 2 hours and 2 minutes between the 2 locations.  UB suggested that the journey could have been made using a transport system not involving the use of a public road - i.e., Helicopter, Plane or Train (the Irish Rail timetable gives a journey time of over 4 hours between the 2 locations given that the journey will involve a number of changes). To add insult  to injury - the store where the first transaction took place has confirmed by e-mail to me that they have reviewed their chip and pin transactions for the day concerned and they have no record of a transaction for the amount involved. I have again gone back to UB and asked them to speak to the Shop Manager in the store concerned and they refuse to do this.  They are sticking to their line regarding the transaction being a chip and pin.  UB have put the shutters up and they have told me that they will no longer investigate this, even though they have never contacted the shop. 

UB have also stated to me that the Financial Services Ombudsman will never find against the bank in this instance as the transaction was chip and pin.  

Therefore - what would you do. Am I wasting my time with the FSO??


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## Brendan Burgess (29 Aug 2012)

Just confirm that it was definitely in that location.  Could they be using the address of the Head Office of the shop rather than the actual shop itself? 

The problem for the banks is that people deny that their card was used but after investigation, they realise that it was actually their card.  They can't really refund a transaction because you say you weren't there. 

If it was fraud, it wouldn't be one off and for a small amount.  If they had copied your card and pin, they would suck it dry. 



> the store where the first transaction took  place has confirmed by e-mail to me that they have reviewed their chip  and pin transactions for the day concerned and they have no record of a  transaction for the amount involved.



You should probably bring it to the attention of the fraud investigation office in Ulster Bank. They might investigate it to see if it was an inside job. Or it might be an unresolved IT issue, although that seems unlikely. 



Brendan


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## Sue Ellen (29 Aug 2012)

I would fight it to the end through their complaints procedure and then on to the FSO purely to put my side of the story on record in case this happens again.


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## Time (29 Aug 2012)

Ask them for a final response letter. Don't accept anything less.


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## trustno1 (29 Aug 2012)

Hi Brendan

The store has confirmed to me that all payments at their stores (less than 10 in Ireland) are recorded against the shop concerned on a person's bank statement.

In relation to not refunding a transaction because I said I wasn't there - the transaction occured on July 3rd - I spotted it as soon as it hit my account on July 5th and reported it same day.  You would have to be stupid not to be able to recollect where you were 2 days beforehand (steady - I'm not that old yet);. Secondly, my wife was at work until 13:00 on the day in question, 155 kms away from the store concerned and it was her card that was used.  She collected our kids from Summer Camp after she left work that day.

I take your point regarding the empyting of my account and it does seem a little strange that it was only a small amount, this reinforces my view that someone in UB IT suffered from a fat finger freddy mistake during UB trying to sort out its IT problems.  It is generally accepted that there was a lot of manual entries being undertaken by UB from late June to early July.  In fact, my wife's salary went missing in cyberspace for 3 weeks.

Finally, I have advised UB that the store concerned have examined their records and have no record of my transaction amount on the day concerned.  UB have advised me that as far as they are concerned, the shop's statement is irrelevant and that their decision to not repay me stays.

However, this opens up a whole new can of worms for the bank as from my reading of the Payments Service Directive (Regulations 70 - 76) tonight, they don't have a leg to stand on.  They have no proof that I did not comply with the terms and conditions of Regulation 70 of S.I. 383 because I have never given them cause to believe that I have.  UB insist that the fact that a chip and pin entry was made is sufficient is their view that an authentic transaction took place.  However, Regulation 73(2) states that "If a payment service user denies having authorised an executed transaction, the use of a payment instrument recorded by the payment service provider is not in itself necessarily sufficient to prove that either the payment transaction was authorised by the payer or that the payer acted fraudulently or intentionally or failed, because he or she acted with gross negligence, to fulfil one or more of his or her obligations under Regulation 70".  

When you consider this, coupled with the distance between the 2 locations, plus the fact that the store has confirmed by e-mail to me that they have no record of a receipt for the amount involved on the day in question, you have to wonder if the bank is complying with their obligations under the Directive.

I just find the bank's stance very strange as it would appear that commom sense has not prevailed.  Given that the bank seem to be very certain of the fact that the Ombudsman will never find in my favour, I wonder is it worth the trouble of contacting the FSO.
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## Time (29 Aug 2012)

> I wonder is it worth the trouble of contacting the FSO.


If you have their final response then you have nothing to lose in going to the FSO.


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## DingDing (29 Aug 2012)

With the ulster bank, can you pay for a copy of the transaction slip.

If the shop did not process the transaction there will be no receipt.


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## trustno1 (29 Aug 2012)

Hi DingDing. I am not sure what you mean by Transaction Slip. Can you enlighten me?


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## gillarosa (30 Aug 2012)

I think DingDing means you can request a copy of the transaction receipt, where they claim your card was debited at that location. It's something cardholders used to be able to request, its ultimate proof that a card was or was not used at that location and time. I don't know if the banks still supply this since chip and pin became widespread though may be worth your while requesting. Best of luck with this.


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## thunder99 (30 Aug 2012)

It's called a voucher copy, ring up UB and ask for it. They may have a charge for it though.

As Brendan said if your card was cloned it's unlikely that it only had one small transaction, but also it doesn't make sense that the retailer have no matching transaction for that day. If the transaction doesn't exist, how did it appear on UB's system (it doesn't make sense that someone typed something in manually, made 2 errors but still ended up with 2 valid accounts)?

Could it be the purchase was made on another day? Sometimes retailers don't batch transactions every night and that might explain it.


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## Mark Power (31 Aug 2012)

*Payment problems*

The payment processing systems had issues on this date. What may have happened is that the transaction was incorrectly posted as a chip and pin transaction against your account. I would follow this through as when the transactions arrive into the banks systems they are not as secure as you think. It is likely that some rogue transactions were manually mapped to accounts and this is how you ended up in this scenario. My advice is follow it up with the FSO and get them to demand proof of the transaction from the Bank with proof that it was not modified on the date in question. I think you will find that they modified a number of the payment batches to get the systems working again!


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## DingDing (1 Sep 2012)

Yes the Voucher copy was what I was referring to.

The retailer should have a copy of the receipt as proof of the transaction.  As they say the transaction did not occur then there will be no voucher copy and therefore no proof the transaction happened.

Shops still print out a copy of the receipt that you get.  There one however has the full credit card no AFAIK but this might have changed with chip and pin


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## Time (2 Sep 2012)

No, the shop must keep their copy for at least 2 years. 

If they can't produce the copy the transaction will be refunded.


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## Mystic Oil (12 Sep 2012)

> *Chip and pin 'weakness' exposed by Cambridge researchers*
> 
> Researchers said cards could effectively be cloned by exploiting the security flaw
> 
> ...


http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-19559124


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## trustno1 (6 Oct 2012)

Hi everyone. Just to let you know how things turned out. Wrote to the FSOB who asked me to seek a final response letter from the Head of Complaints at UB. Sent off the request stating that to settle my dispute I was looking to be reimbursed the €9.62, a letter of apology and €200 compensation for my time and effort. UB have given me all I was looking for. Case closed as far as I am concerned. Lesson learned, deal with UB in Ireland, the RBS fraud team in the UK are worse than useless.


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