# Estate has Insufficient Funds to Cover Funeral Expenses.



## Derry (11 Jun 2019)

I am trying to sort out the affairs of a recently deceased relative Who was widowed but had no family.  

I received a phone call today from the solicitor informing me that there are insufficient funds in the estate to pay for the funeral expenses.

This relative left no will, had no life Insurance, a very small balance in a savings account which would not cover the funeral expenses.

Their only asset was their home which will shortly be put on the market to pay the Fair Deal Scheme, Nursing Home shortfall, Legal fees, Estate agents fees.

I will have to get a credit union loan to pay the funeral expenses. 

Can I claim for this credit union loan for the Undertaker against her estate ? 

Thanks in advance,
Derry


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## Palerider (11 Jun 2019)

You can indeed but will there be funds available to reimburse you.


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## Ravima (11 Jun 2019)

If person died intestate, then the assets will be distributed as prescribed by law. The solicitor should be able to advise. Will sale of house produce a surplus over payment of all the bills, INCLUDING funeral expenses?


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## Derry (12 Jun 2019)

Thanks for the replies Palerider & Ravima.

I don't know what price the house will make. It is a very old house and is also a listed building. Has not been occupied for the last 15 years or so . It's not in great shape. But solicitor not hopeful sale price will produce a surplus.


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## Bronte (12 Jun 2019)

I always thought funeral expenses came before other debts. That there’s an order in which debts would be paid, ask your solicitor to clarify the order.

How much is the house worth? How much is the solicitor fee ?


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## geri (13 Jun 2019)

Isn't here a grant you can get to cover funeral expenses?


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## NoRegretsCoyote (13 Jun 2019)

Derry said:


> Their only asset was their home which will shortly be put on the market to pay *the Fair Deal Scheme,* Nursing Home shortfall, Legal fees, Estate agents fees.


The Fair Deal contribution is capped at 7.5% of the value of the house, for up to three years, so a maximum of 22.5% of the value. 

Are you aware of that?


If you're comfortable, it would make sense to provide more details (including outstanding amounts) so that you can get better advice.


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## Romulan (13 Jun 2019)

Experienced similar although simpler in the sense of no assets at all.

Three members of the family, niece, nephew and sister of the deceased chipped in to cover cost.
A brother of the deceased declined.

I could do a podcast on families, elderly relatives, death and money...................


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## Brendan Burgess (13 Jun 2019)

geri said:


> Isn't here a grant you can get to cover funeral expenses?


It was discontinued in 2014 






						Standard Bereavement Grant
					

Outlines the rules, rates and eligibility requirements for the Standard Bereavement Grant.This grant is no longer paid from 1 January 2014.




					www.citizensinformation.ie


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## AlbacoreA (13 Jun 2019)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> The Fair Deal contribution is capped at 7.5% of the value of the house, for up to three years, so a maximum of 22.5% of the value.
> ...



Yes but the house has to be sold to pay this 22.5% after the person has passed. if there is no other means in the estate to pay it.


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## noproblem (13 Jun 2019)

I do know of SVDP stepping in and paying the amount, also know of a few undertakers who buried people and waited until the deceased affairs were in order before they were paid and sometimes the estates didn't cover the costs but the undertakers carried the loss without ever saying anything. If everything else fails you should have a chat with one or two undertakers. They've helped many people in their time with very little said.


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## Ravima (13 Jun 2019)

House is to be sold. Fair Deal get 22.5%. House not worth much. 

Assume house is worth €25K before auctioneer fees, that means that HSE get about €5500. Assume solicitor gets €5000 to include VAT and outlays, that leaves €14500 to pay funeral expenses. How expensive was the funeral?


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## Derry (13 Jun 2019)

Thanks everyone for your replies.
A local auctioneer has valued the house for the probate office at€45, 000  he has no savings to speak of €450.00 and only €156 in the credit union. Funeral bill was €7000


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## twofor1 (14 Jun 2019)

€45,000 is not a lot, there is probably legitimate reasons why there might not be enough for funeral expenses, you have mentioned solicitor, auctioneer, etc.

The solicitor should be able to say where the €45,000 from the house sale is going.

Was the house originally valued for Fair Deal purposes at more than today's expected sale price. What is owed to the HSE will be based on the original valuation, not todays sale price. As the house has been empty for 15 years and in poor repair, its possible it is worth less now than then.

How is there so little savings ? A single persons state pension is around €250 weekly, is this not paid for 6 weeks after death ?


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## RedOnion (14 Jun 2019)

twofor1 said:


> is this not paid for 6 weeks after death ?


Only to a spouse / civil partner or co- habitant where qualifying criteria are met.


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## Feemar5 (14 Jun 2019)

In the case of insolvency debts should be paid in the following order:

1. Funeral Expenses and Administration expenses
2. Secured creditors such as mortgage
3..Preferential debts such as taxes
4. Ordinary debts such as credit cards etc.,


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## NoRegretsCoyote (14 Jun 2019)

That seems expensive for a funeral.

The two I dealt with in recent years were about €3.5k (Dublin) although both involved cremation.


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## RedOnion (14 Jun 2019)

@Derry 
I think you need to sit down with the solicitor, and work out whether the estate is insolvent or not.
If it's insolvent, there's a specific order that debts must be paid, as outlined above.  There's also no point in you being personally out of pocket when there are legal rules in place to deal with such a scenario.


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## noproblem (14 Jun 2019)

Derry said:


> Thanks everyone for your replies.
> A local auctioneer has valued the house for the probate office at€45, 000  he has no savings to speak of €450.00 and only €156 in the credit union. Funeral bill was €7000



Sorry about your relatives passing but.  it's a signal to all of us to have some plans in place for when our time comes.  I don't know what part of the country you come from or where the deceased had the house but at €45k it's very little indeed, one would pay that for most rural sites and it would be cheap. The fact the house is a listed building can put off buyers but at that price I would imagine there may be some very interested clients, especially if there's some contents inside/outside. Have you a trusted friend who might have an understanding of these things, if so ask for assistance. €7k for a funeral is not cheap but I don't know the circumstances or what was involved in this. How much are the fair deal looking for and what was happening to her pension every week to only leave the small amount as mentioned? I do hope everything works out well in the end.


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## Derry (14 Jun 2019)

Thanks again everyone for your replies.

1. House was valued for the Fair Deal Scheme at €65,000 originally.
2. House valued by Local Auctioneer for Probate Office last week. He valued it at €45,000 the reason being it has fallen in to disrepair. It had lain empty for the best part of 15 years. The house has also never been registered with the land registry, the Fair Deal Scheme People were very quick to inform the solicitor of this fact. 

House has  No central heating. Only open fires with No Back boiler.  It is a  very old house built in early 1800's.
the auctioneer told us that whoever buys the house would have to spend a considerable amount on it to bring it up to modern standards.




The €7,000 Funeral Bill broken down is   € 4500 for the funeral.  €2,900 for a new headstone and Kerbing of grave, Leveling of it and New chippings plus VAT .The existing headstone must be replaced for health & safety reasons. It is very old Over 100 years old, very wobbly & unsteady and there is no room for further inscriptions.


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## Monbretia (14 Jun 2019)

noproblem said:


> what was happening to her pension every week to only leave the small amount as mentioned?



Going to nursing home I'd imagine, 80% of weekly income goes to pay cost under Fair Deal plus whatever else is assessed.  Doesn't leave much for saving especially if there are all these 'extras' we hear about in nursing homes that are not covered and must be paid for separately.


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## Derry (14 Jun 2019)

His pension was indeed going to the nursing home and also he was charged for "Extras not covered by the Fair Deal Scheme such as Chiropody, Physiotherapy, Incontinence Pads and Activities for the Patients.


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## twofor1 (15 Jun 2019)

Derry said:


> he was charged for "Extras not covered by the Fair Deal Scheme such as Chiropody, Physiotherapy, Incontinence Pads and Activities.



Chiropody, physiotherapy or activities are not covered by Fair Deal.

If your relation had a medical card they should have been entitled to a chiropody card which subsidises a few visits a year, my relations only pay €15 for chiropody in their nursing homes.

Incontinence wear is provided free of charge by the HSE, to all Fair Deal residents who have a medical card.


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## Peanuts20 (16 Jun 2019)

Check with the Credit Union to see if he qualifies for their Death Insurance benefit.


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## Derry (16 Jun 2019)

Thanks for the replies Peanut 20, twofor1.

What I will do is make an appointment to see the solicitor and discuss the options with him. 


I will update when I have a clearer picture from the solicitor seeing as he is still gathering information in relation to my late Uncles estate.


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## Tenente (17 Jun 2019)

Is it not the case in this instance that the Fair Deal Scheme are entitled to € 14,625 i.e. € 65,000 x 22.5 % and therefore if the house makes the current market valuation € 45,000 this will leave € 45,000 less € 14,625 = € 30,375.00 to pay the funeral expenses, solicitor fees and auctioneer fees etc? 

There is mention of Nursing Home Shortfall but if his/her entire pension was paid to the nursing home, the 20% on top of the 80% Fair Deal amount should cover these extras not covered by Fair Deal Scheme.  Or maybe I am underestimating these amounts? I would be looking for a detailed account from the Nursing Home if they are claiming some shortfall. As has already being mentioned I think the funeral expenses are given some priority over other debts if there are any.  

I hope you get it all sorted out.


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## Derry (23 Jun 2019)

Tenente,
The Nursing home shortfall relates to the Fair Deal Scheme & the value of his contribution was assessed on an annual basis by the HSE.  This contribution was variable according to his means. On enteringthe nursing home  home he signed a standing order in favour of the Nursing Home for €975 per month. This amount either increased or decreased according to his means. Mostly his contribution was increased. He should then have signed a new standing order form at his bank for the new amount ,but due to his Dementia he was unable to do so. The €975 standing order kept going in to the Nursing home but the shortfall he still owed was debited to his account.


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