# How to get rid of my mortgage debt



## Night owl (31 Jan 2012)

Hi to All here on this very useful forum.
I am asking this very often repeated question for yet one more time.
I am originally Non Irish (Nigerian) having Irish nationality now and I have a mortgage of 500000 on apartment in dublin (I paid 25000 from my pocket as total value was 525000 in 2006). I paid in full till April 2011 with no arrears as was full time employed.
Unfortunately I lost my job in April 2011 and getting some part time stuff since then. 
To minimize the living costs, we rented our apartment for 1000 per month from april 2011 onwards and that rent is also in arrears for last 4 months!!
we are now living in a small rural dwelling and managing OK with 3 small kids.
I haven't paid any thing to Bank since last April and used all the rent money for food/clothing/schools/heating for my family.
On top of it, there is also 1700 yearly management fees for my apartment and that too is in arrears and i am getting very regular threatening letter from them and I also have a personal loan of around 100000 taken from my country and that too is in arrears.
i have paid almost 15000 for the treatment of my father back home for his cancer.
I earned around 70000 in year 2011 but my expenditure but due to all those heavy expenses, could't pay the bank though having every intention to pay back my mortgage.
Now, unfortunately i am finding myself in an almost impossible situation of paying that mortgage back at all..
I am considering moving to either UK or back to my country due to lack of jobs/earnings..
I am reading few threads with regard to bankruptcy in UK but am a bit sceptic as to the consequences..
Please Please Please any advice....
Thanks


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## Commercial (31 Jan 2012)

Have you spoken to the Bank. What are they saying to you?


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## Wipetheslate (31 Jan 2012)

You should consider looking into UK bankruptcy, if your earning potential through your profession is good .You could be totaly clear in a year , but you may have to pay some amount from your earnings for a further 3 years , you would have to move to the UK and live there for at least 3 - 4 months , you could leave your family here if you want while you bankrupt yourself in UK . As a European citizen you can avail of UK bankruptcy laws which are considered to be the most advantageous to the bankrupt in Europe, you  must satisfy the COMI rules , see various helpful posts on this site regards UK bankruptcy , Good luck !
Ps. Not sure if Nigeria recognises UK bankruptcy


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## Commercial (31 Jan 2012)

Yeah, but is there not a minimum the op could earn per month and the remainder is given to the assignee?
How about living expenses etc for this family?
Not sure, just asking


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## Wipetheslate (31 Jan 2012)

Yes I think there are set allowances for bankrupts and their dependants ,but if I recall they are quite generous and can afford a comfortable standard of living etc maybe Steve thatcher could post some info about post UK bankruptcy living allowances allowable.


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## Commercial (31 Jan 2012)

I'm nearly sure that if you earn over £500 per week you have to let the assignee know.


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## Night owl (31 Jan 2012)

Do I really have to declare myself Bankrupt in UK??. I mean once I leave Ireland, will the Bank chase me to UK?, I've offered the bank to sale the house and they write off the negative equity amount but there was flat NO..


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## 44brendan (31 Jan 2012)

There is no guarantee that the Bank will not proceed against you in the UK. However, if you are leaving Ireland, with no intention of returning it would be difficult and expensive to take any action in respect of UK earnings. Unless you are a high earner the Bank is unlikely to proceed beyond repossessing your house.


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## mcloving (31 Jan 2012)

44brendan said:


> There is no guarantee that the Bank will not proceed against you in the UK. However, if you are leaving Ireland, with no intention of returning it would be difficult and expensive to take any action in respect of UK earnings. Unless you are a high earner the Bank is unlikely to proceed beyond repossessing your house.



I thought you had to be resident in the country you have your debt for it to be enforced by the courts?
So in this instance, as they might move to UK and be resident there it cannot therefore be enforced, until they return back to Ireland.


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## Night owl (31 Jan 2012)

Thanks to 44Brendan & mcloving for the replies. I do have a job offer for 6 months (May be extended to 12 months) in UK with take home salary of around 3500 Pound Sterlings/month and to the best of my estimate, for our family of 5 (we both and 2 kids and 3rd on the way), I expect this salary to be almost fully utilized every month..My main point is that, no offence meant to any of my Irish Irish fellow countrymen/countrywomen, I do not have any long term interests in Ireland and I have no problem whatsoever if I'll stay outside Ireland for 3-6 years depends on Bankruptcy in Ireland and depending on these circumstances, why would I bother going through Bankruptcy proceedings in UK??. I have already offered my Bank that they can keep every penny of the rent of the my house minus expenditures forever...Thank fully I do not have any other debts here but Management Company charges and house/mortgage insurance are the issues...I don't know what to do but my feeling is that even if they'll follow me in UK, there'll be hardly any cash/savings for them to take away...will I be considered commiting any fraud/crime??


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## Bronte (1 Feb 2012)

You would not be committing a fraud or crime by relocating to the UK. 

You have to decide whether you want to declare UK bankruptcy when you move there and be fully clear of any chance of the bank coming after you or avoiding that and not declaring bankruptcy and taking the risk because you are a foreign national, not on a high wage and no assets, hard to find in the UK, whether they will bother coming after you. Personally if you do make the move to the UK I'd go down the route of bankruptcy to get everything nicely cleaned up.

Just a question on your figures, you earned 70K in 2011 and paid no mortgage, but you also earned 9K (12 - 3) from the rent? So out of a total of about 78K you were barely able to live, is that correct?


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## Steve Thatcher (1 Feb 2012)

mcloving said:


> I thought you had to be resident in the country you have your debt for it to be enforced by the courts?
> So in this instance, as they might move to UK and be resident there it cannot therefore be enforced, until they return back to Ireland.


 
Hello it is my understanding that a judgement obtained in one country can with the agreement of the court be recognised in another EU country for enforcement purposes.

Steve


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## Steve Thatcher (1 Feb 2012)

Commercial said:


> I'm nearly sure that if you earn over £500 per week you have to let the assignee know.


 
That is not true. The OR will do an assesment of your income and expenditure and decide if after taking into account your reasonable needs for you and your family, there is any excess income. That sum could be taken in an income payments order for up to 36 months.

I think that you may be confusing this with the obtaining of credit over £500 where you should notifyu the lender of your bankruptcy.

Steve Thatcher


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## Steve Thatcher (1 Feb 2012)

Night owl said:


> Thanks to 44Brendan & mcloving for the replies. I do have a job offer for 6 months (May be extended to 12 months) in UK with take home salary of around 3500 Pound Sterlings/month and to the best of my estimate, for our family of 5 (we both and 2 kids and 3rd on the way), I expect this salary to be almost fully utilized every month..My main point is that, no offence meant to any of my Irish Irish fellow countrymen/countrywomen, I do not have any long term interests in Ireland and I have no problem whatsoever if I'll stay outside Ireland for 3-6 years depends on Bankruptcy in Ireland and depending on these circumstances, why would I bother going through Bankruptcy proceedings in UK??. I have already offered my Bank that they can keep every penny of the rent of the my house minus expenditures forever...Thank fully I do not have any other debts here but Management Company charges and house/mortgage insurance are the issues...I don't know what to do but my feeling is that even if they'll follow me in UK, there'll be hardly any cash/savings for them to take away...will I be considered commiting any fraud/crime??


 
How much is reasonable for a family of five will vary depending on a whole host of circumstances.
E.g where you live first and formost. A house for five in London will be vastly different in rental terms than one in Liverpool say.
If you are to maintain a vehicle for work purposes, that too can use up a lot of excess income.
You have a child on the way and a new born baby will be expensive.

In short it may be that your income of £3500 could be utilised for reasonable family expenditure.

Steve Thatcher


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## Night owl (1 Feb 2012)

Bronte said:


> You would not be committing a fraud or crime by relocating to the UK.
> 
> You have to decide whether you want to declare UK bankruptcy when you move there and be fully clear of any chance of the bank coming after you or avoiding that and not declaring bankruptcy and taking the risk because you are a foreign national, not on a high wage and no assets, hard to find in the UK, whether they will bother coming after you. Personally if you do make the move to the UK I'd go down the route of bankruptcy to get everything nicely cleaned up.
> 
> Just a question on your figures, you earned 70K in 2011 and paid no mortgage, but you also earned 9K (12 - 3) from the rent? So out of a total of about 78K you were barely able to live, is that correct?



Hi Bronte. I paid all the money i got from rent, i.e 9000 to the bank..Just that I didn't have any more money left to pay to bank on top if it. I also have a substantial personal loan taken from a family member so used lot my savings to pay it off. and I paid around 15000 for my dad's treatment. I am living on the savings for a while any way and as there is no job here, thats why moving to UK. I am seriously considering Bankruptcy in UK but recent events like Sean Quinn are putting me off as its possible that Irish Bank may get annulment order from UK. Other thing to worry is the situation post Bankruptcy in UK as I heard that you are almost left penniless by UK banks once you are bankrupt even though you are working there.


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## Night owl (1 Feb 2012)

Steve Thatcher said:


> How much is reasonable for a family of five will vary depending on a whole host of circumstances.
> E.g where you live first and formost. A house for five in London will be vastly different in rental terms than one in Liverpool say.
> If you are to maintain a vehicle for work purposes, that too can use up a lot of excess income.
> You have a child on the way and a new born baby will be expensive.
> ...



Hi Steve. Thanks for your post. Honestly I believe that UK bankruptcy is the only viable option to get rid of all this debt once and for all but I am very worried when i read stories about how the people are left with only 10 pounds/month to spend after bankruptcy. As I've mentioned, I do have a job offer of around 3500 pounds/month and I can show that all this can be spent on expenses (as you know that sky is the limit if you want to spend!!!) but I am not sure what will be the court's reaction and probably you can share your experience with us that usually how much is "reasonable" expenditure, say if I am living in Manchester/Bristol (5 in the family)? and another worry is that after bankruptcy and IPA/IPO running through all 36 months, if I decide to leave UK another destination like, Nigeria or Middle east and will be unable to keep up with the payments, what will be the outcome??


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## Steve Thatcher (1 Feb 2012)

Night owl said:


> Hi Bronte. I paid all the money i got from rent, i.e 9000 to the bank..Just that I didn't have any more money left to pay to bank on top if it. I also have a substantial personal loan taken from a family member so used lot my savings to pay it off. and I paid around 15000 for my dad's treatment. I am living on the savings for a while any way and as there is no job here, thats why moving to UK. I am seriously considering Bankruptcy in UK but recent events like Sean Quinn are putting me off as its possible that Irish Bank may get annulment order from UK. Other thing to worry is the situation post Bankruptcy in UK as I heard that you are almost left penniless by UK banks once you are bankrupt even though you are working there.


 
The Sean Quinn annulment was a one off. The banks are not going to come after every bankruptcy in the UK (unless maybe you to owe €2 b)

You will not be left penniless in the UK. Part of what I do for a living is to make sure of that.

I am happy to give advice on a one to one basis dependant on circumstances but it is impossible to set out every scenario here. What ever you earn I have very few people who use me who have an IPA. I can't say anymore.

Steve


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## Steve Thatcher (1 Feb 2012)

Night owl said:


> Hi Steve. Thanks for your post. Honestly I believe that UK bankruptcy is the only viable option to get rid of all this debt once and for all but I am very worried when i read stories about how the people are left with only 10 pounds/month to spend after bankruptcy. As I've mentioned, I do have a job offer of around 3500 pounds/month and I can show that all this can be spent on expenses (as you know that sky is the limit if you want to spend!!!) but I am not sure what will be the court's reaction and probably you can share your experience with us that usually how much is "reasonable" expenditure, say if I am living in Manchester/Bristol (5 in the family)? and another worry is that after bankruptcy and IPA/IPO running through all 36 months, if I decide to leave UK another destination like, Nigeria or Middle east and will be unable to keep up with the payments, what will be the outcome??


 
The law here on this is very complicated and that is why people take expert advice on this. There are ways to produce your statement of affairs to utilise your income fully. if you move or leave a job the matter is still more complicated, but there are ways to deal with this.

Steve Thatcher


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## mcloving (1 Feb 2012)

Steve Thatcher said:


> Hello it is my understanding that a judgement obtained in one country can with the agreement of the court be recognised in another EU country for enforcement purposes.
> 
> Steve



Thanks, do you know of any examples of this happening?. 

Would the the bank chase after someone with 2000 euros debt etc or would they only be interested in people in debt for many hundreds  of thousands to millions etc.


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## 44brendan (1 Feb 2012)

Pursuing someone cross border is an expensive and time consuming process. In my experience it's rarely done. Generally, if the debt is reasonably large, a financial institution will first of all employ an investigator to obtain information about the financial circumstances of a debtor. Only in the event that the outcome of legal action was likely to produce a reasonable dividend would such action be progressed.
In most cases, for blower amouts the Institution will obtain judgement in Ireland and if the debtor has left the juristiction W/O the balance.


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## mcloving (1 Feb 2012)

44brendan said:


> Pursuing someone cross border is an expensive and time consuming process. In my experience it's rarely done. Generally, if the debt is reasonably large, a financial institution will first of all employ an investigator to obtain information about the financial circumstances of a debtor. Only in the event that the outcome of legal action was likely to produce a reasonable dividend would such action be progressed.
> In most cases, for blower amouts the Institution will obtain judgement in Ireland and if the debtor has left the juristiction W/O the balance.



What is judged as 'reasonably large'?


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## 44brendan (1 Feb 2012)

There is no standardised decision making process amongst banks. Generally they are not vindictive, in that they won't pursue a debt unless they can see an option of getting some money back. The ideal is to come to some agreement with the Bank that you can afford. If you intend skipping the country and you have debts of say 10/20K plus, then you may well be advised to seek UK bankruptcy. Less than this amount and the Banks are unlikely to pursue you abroad. There is no guarantee of this, and you are taking a risk by doing it.


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## mcloving (1 Feb 2012)

44brendan said:


> There is no standardised decision making process amongst banks. Generally they are not vindictive, in that they won't pursue a debt unless they can see an option of getting some money back. The ideal is to come to some agreement with the Bank that you can afford. If you intend skipping the country and you have debts of say 10/20K plus, then you may well be advised to seek UK bankruptcy. Less than this amount and the Banks are unlikely to pursue you abroad. There is no guarantee of this, and you are taking a risk by doing it.



Some cases studies of this would be of interest to many on this forum. Are any available?


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## 44brendan (1 Feb 2012)

Those best advised to give case studies will be ones that left the jurisdiction and can illustrate their own experiences. Otherwise, you make your own decision and accept the associated risks.


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## Night owl (1 Feb 2012)

44brendan said:


> Those best advised to give case studies will be ones that left the jurisdiction and can illustrate their own experiences. Otherwise, you make your own decision and accept the associated risks.



I have heard of some one who had a significant property portfolio including 6 houses, a restaurant and an office premises in Cork and then he left the country without informing the banks. To the best of my information, Banks are pursuing him for all the debts although all his properties are been repossessed by now. I heard he is also been charged of providing false income certificates and inflated incomes from his rentals...All this is unconfirmed..


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## elcato (1 Feb 2012)

> I have heard of some one who had a significant property portfolio  including 6 houses, a restaurant and an office premises in Cork and then  he left the country without informing the banks. To the best of my  information, Banks are pursuing him for all the debts although all his  properties are been repossessed by now. I heard he is also been charged  of providing false income certificates and inflated incomes from his  rentals...All this is unconfirmed


I drink in the same pub as you so


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