# New Central Heating System - how much should I budget?



## buyingabroad (1 Sep 2009)

Hi all,

We have storage heaters currently in our 4 bed semi and want to upgrade to a gas fired system.

We will be installing pipework, 15 rads, high eff boiler and a new hot water cyclinder as well.

What would be a reasonable amount to pay for this?

Installation shouldn't be too difficult as easy access to floor boards to run copper pipes.

Thanks for the help.

B.


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## DavyJones (2 Sep 2009)

Depends on where you are located. They won't use copper pipes under floor boards, they will be plastic. Joists shouldn't be notched but drilled, so plastic pipe is better to use.


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## buyingabroad (2 Sep 2009)

Located in Dublin for better or worse cost wise.....


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## DavyJones (2 Sep 2009)

In Limerick, you could probably do it for between €6000 - €7000, depending on proposed meter location. In Dublin it will no doubt, cost a few shillings more.


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## villa 1 (2 Sep 2009)

I'd agree with Davy, anything between 6 and 8k but watch out for cheap materials and boiler and make sure they don't use that dreadfull "garden hose type" plastic pipe connected directly up your radiators and hot water cylinder. That pipe needs to be hidden at all costs!!


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## buyingabroad (2 Sep 2009)

Thanks everyone for your help here. Two quotes received last week - one for €10k and the other €13k. My price expectation up to now was max €9k. The €13k price has all the automated controls for programming the various zones. Bit of a gap isn't there....

The €10k includes a Bosch Worcester CDI boiler. The €13k includes a glowworm. Any views on these?



villa 1 said:


> That pipe needs to be hidden at all costs!!



Don't understand what pipes you are talking about here, sorry. How do I check this out?


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## Sconhome (3 Sep 2009)

Presume villa1 means qualpex.

Push for a copper plumb through out. We have come across qualpex pipe in refurbishments, weeping around joints, speedi fittings used - leaking. These can weep long after your plumber is gone.

If your joist runs allow I would recommend plumbing is soldered joints and air pressure tested before commissioning. If you are troubled with joists and bridging use qualpex in complete runs, no joints hidden in the floor or inaccessible positions. You can use copper tails to the radiators, you can leave access to the floor void under the radiators.

Both would be considered good boilers, make sure output rating is high enough to handle the requirements of the house comfortably.


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## Mpsox (3 Sep 2009)

Bear in mind you need to use a certified installer and you should check with Bord Gais that whoever you use is

Secondly you should also check your insulation and see if it can be improved,


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## buyingabroad (3 Sep 2009)

Thanks everyone. I will let you know how I get on.


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## DavyJones (3 Sep 2009)

Sconhome said:


> Presume villa1 means qualpex.
> 
> Push for a copper plumb through out. We have come across qualpex pipe in refurbishments, weeping around joints, speedi fittings used - leaking. These can weep long after your plumber is gone.
> 
> ...



Qualpex, if used correctly is the best method, soldering copper is going to push the cost of the job through the roof. I dislike plastic fittings and always use compression brass fittings on plastic pipe.

Plastic pipe will never corrode, is faster and easier to install and cheaper than copper all round.


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## DGOBS (3 Sep 2009)

would also like to add, from your listed quotes:

the Worster CDI boilers are excellenton all fronts
won't even dignify the Gloworm with a response!


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## villa 1 (3 Sep 2009)

Pros   Qualpex   Ideal for hidden work, can be run easily between drilled floor joists, less joints. Will not corrode if in contact with soft acidic well water. Cuts labour costs. Unqualified handymen love it. Cheaper than copper, lightweight and fairly robust in comparison to copper. Less problems with water hammer.

Cons   Qualpex, if installed incorrectly will break down and leak, eg, radius bends too tight, pipe kinking, twisting between fittings. I've seen this type of pipe connected directly to boilers and even directyly off solid fuel stoves! Ouch!!These types of polyetylene, polybutylene plastic pipes have rendered many domestic plumbers totally inadequate when it comes to skillfull tasks like boiler house, hot press, and surface pipework. This pipe served the "tiger lash it in mentality" well. It's now time to insist on quality work. This type of pipe can, if incorrectly installed, cause constant airlocking problems if used on low pressure gravity supply systems.


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## DavyJones (3 Sep 2009)

DGOBS said:


> would also like to add, from your listed quotes:
> 
> the Worster CDI boilers are excellenton all fronts
> won't even dignify the Gloworm with a response!




What do you think of Viessmann?. A client insisted on one, comissioned it today and have to say, I am impressed. two flows and two returns form boiler. Primary circuit can be run at a higher temp for a shorter time, with cylinder stat wired directly back to it.


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## DavyJones (3 Sep 2009)

villa 1 said:


> Pros   Qualpex   Ideal for hidden work, can be run easily between drilled floor joists, less joints. Will not corrode if in contact with soft acidic well water. Cuts labour costs. Unqualified handymen love it. Cheaper than copper, lightweight and fairly robust in comparison to copper. Less problems with water hammer.
> 
> Cons   Qualpex, if installed incorrectly will break down and leak, eg, radius bends too tight, pipe kinking, twisting between fittings. I've seen this type of pipe connected directly to boilers and even directyly off solid fuel stoves! Ouch!!These types of polyetylene, polybutylene plastic pipes have rendered many domestic plumbers totally inadequate when it comes to skillfull tasks like boiler house, hot press, and surface pipework. This pipe served the "tiger lash it in mentality" well. It's now time to insist on quality work. This type of pipe can, if incorrectly installed, cause constant airlocking problems if used on low pressure gravity supply systems.



They are all interesting and fair points. this probably needs a thread of it's own but the amount of repairs we carry out on new installations is shocking, not just because a pipe is untidy but major system faults. And if you start adding in things like back boilers/stoves, you can forget about it.

I think the modern apprenticeship is good, I went through it myself, It does beg the question when the standard can be so low.

Another point on plastic pipe, when it heats, it gets wavey, no matter how well it is clipped. thats way you don't want it where it will be seen.


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## villa 1 (3 Sep 2009)

Not trying to move away from this genuine question, but i've done a lot of research into this problem.The reason for such large amounts of shoddy/incorrect workmanship has been caused by the general lack of apprentice training undertaken by employers during the tiger era. First year apprentices were trained by 2nd year apprentices and so on. Apprentices, especially in the domestic house building industry recieved most of their ""on the job training" from unqualified fellow apprentices. With little or no experience these apprentices were expected to install vartying types of work without the guidance of qualified craftsmen. " It does'nt matter what it looks like as long as water comes out of it".
Most apprentices/craftsmen are proud of their work but in many cases they did not get enough time to produce quality work. Builders and developers are the real villans. Gret it done and move on.


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## Sconhome (4 Sep 2009)

DavyJones said:


> What do you think of Viessmann?. A client insisted on one, comissioned it today and have to say, I am impressed. two flows and two returns form boiler. Primary circuit can be run at a higher temp for a shorter time, with cylinder stat wired directly back to it.



DavyJones, the plumber I use is raving about Viessmann and we are starting to spec them into our renovation works as an option on the Worchester system.


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## buyingabroad (26 Oct 2009)

Hi, has anyone else experience of Viessmann?

Thanks.


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## feileacan (25 Aug 2010)

help! advice on heating system needed. have decided on 2 solid fuel stoves+back boilers. space is 2,000 sq. ft, single storey; will also fit solar.question is how to heat the space without using rad.s? geo is too expensive. had thought of ufh but experts directly contradict each other on compatibility with stoves. house will be close to passive and advice on ventilation is also contradictory. hrv seems expensive too. i need a simple system!


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## pache (25 Aug 2010)

feileacan said:


> help! advice on heating system needed. have decided on 2 solid fuel stoves+back boilers. space is 2,000 sq. ft, single storey; will also fit solar.question is how to heat the space without using rad.s? geo is too expensive. had thought of ufh but experts directly contradict each other on compatibility with stoves. house will be close to passive and advice on ventilation is also contradictory. hrv seems expensive too. i need a simple system!


 
Underfloor is your only man here,combine this with 2 solid fuel stoves is an ideal system provided their installed correctly and your not shy about feeding the stoves!!!

Yes it can be done!!!successfully

Combined with solar its a beautyful job

Heafty enough capital outlay required.


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## villa 1 (26 Aug 2010)

feileacan said:


> help! advice on heating system needed. have decided on 2 solid fuel stoves+back boilers. space is 2,000 sq. ft, single storey; will also fit solar.question is how to heat the space without using rad.s? geo is too expensive. had thought of ufh but experts directly contradict each other on compatibility with stoves. house will be close to passive and advice on ventilation is also contradictory. hrv seems expensive too. i need a simple system!


 Whoever you get to install this system make sure that they are familiar with dual open vented systems coupled up to a solar hot water system. Many plumbers in this country have no clue as to how to install a dual system of central heating let alone linking two open vented solid fuel stoves together.
I hope that one /two of these stoves is running regularly as if not it will take forever to get the heat up in your floor area. Be carefull installing underfloor insisting on proper controlling for independant rooms and consideration into heat gains and outside temperatures. This system is not as straightforward as previously stated.


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## pache (26 Aug 2010)

This system is what i would consider, "very basic".


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## feileacan (29 Aug 2010)

thanks pache and villa.

plumber now steering me away from ufh. have read so many posts on subject that i'm also thinking money better spent upping spec on insulation if that's still poss. at this stage. will stick with solar for the DHW and compliance with building reg.s. should i do this, i have been advised that i will only need 1 stove +BB. am thinking of this fine wire HRV thing for ventilation. the stove would be running fairly regularly, though not all the time. head bursting with worry as hole in ground nearly full, decision time approaching fast and engineer to keep happy!


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## DavyJones (31 Aug 2010)

You could use a buffer tank to hold heated water for ufh. 

to be honest you are mad to do what you are doing with only solid fuel. Why bring that heart ache on to yourself?

Insulate is key, as much as you can afford and fit in place.


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## RUTLAND10 (22 Sep 2010)

im a plumber 14 years exp and evething villa1 has said is totally true 
qualplex is for handymen .
any good plumber will insist himself on copper and solder jointing on a central 
heating system
another problem with qualplex is although it durable and resists corrosion,
it also breeds and take oxygen into the system which in time will corrode the radiators .
they have designed new qualplex wit an oxygen barrier {a small ring of alluminium inside the tubing } but all in all if you get a plumber and he is using qualplex u may 
have a go at doin it yourself and save a few quid


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## RUTLAND10 (22 Sep 2010)

viesmann are a great boiler but are set up for continuos hot water installs
ie with the first 2 pipes as primary heating rad uf ect and second 2 direct ton hot water coil so find out wat sort off install


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