# Finance Committee meeting Minister for Finance and Central Bank this week



## skinnylegs (15 Jan 2018)

The Finance committee are meeting in public session twice this week re the ongoing tracker examination. On Tuesday at 2pm they meet with Paschal Donohue and then with Central Bank governor Philip Lane on Thursday at 9.30. As usual we need to email local TDs with relevant questions. Proceedings can be viewed on the oireachtas website.


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## Banking17 (16 Jan 2018)

Have we anybody in attendance


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## robe (17 Jan 2018)

Did this meeting happen ? Anything of interest?


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## SaySomething (17 Jan 2018)

@robe  yes it happened. It was pure and utter drivel. The minister couldn't even distinguish the difference between redress and compensation on more than one occasion. Rubbish.


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## skinnylegs (17 Jan 2018)

Totally agree SaySomething.
I do have some hope however that tomorrow's meeting with Philip Lane will be more informative, particularly if he is asked the right questions.


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## SaySomething (18 Jan 2018)

Reminder that Philip Lane (et al) will be in attendance at 9.30am this morning. I'm hoping it will be more enlightening than the great admonisher on Tuesday. Am in work so unable to monitor the proceedings. Would very much appreciate any updates at all from other forum members.


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## Wardy7 (18 Jan 2018)

I have tweeted relevant politians re: “prevailing rate”, again. Michael McGrath replied last night saying he would bring it up today!


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## TrackerThieves (18 Jan 2018)

https://beta.oireachtas.ie/en/oireachtas-tv/cr2-live/ in private session at the minute, expect it will start shortly


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## TrackerThieves (18 Jan 2018)

Philip lane started off with some strong words against the banks behaviour but followed that up by saying most cases have been identified and redressed. He also say the banks are paying 600m to customers while it's costing another 300m in extra costs to the banks for extra staffing, as if we should feel sorry for the poor banks


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## TrackerThieves (18 Jan 2018)

Numbers of redressed only up by 600 from October figures, still 13k to be compensated. Governor lane says these will all be compensated by June. He also says all the big issues have been resolved and all the group's they think should be included have been.


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## TrackerThieves (18 Jan 2018)

Was Micheal McGrath questioning
 of these figures to Philip lane that revealed they had only risen by 600. His initial statement made it seem like they were all redressed


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## TrackerThieves (18 Jan 2018)

Micheal McGrath has asked about the prevailing rate, Philip lane says
 the bank should have offered trackers but didn't, following this up with some bull about trackers don't have to be fixed to the ECB and if trackers were actually offered they would have been expensive trackers


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## Wardy7 (18 Jan 2018)

So we’re screwed??


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## Dan Murray (18 Jan 2018)

Surely, if there is ambiguity in terms of what "a tracker at the prevailing rate" means then under the CPC etc., such ambiguity should be interpreted in favour of the customer?


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## Thomas (18 Jan 2018)

If the central bank cannot get them to change it i strongly doubt the FSO or CPC will do so


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## TrackerThieves (18 Jan 2018)

51% of the 26k identified in this examination have been redressed and compensated. I don't think these figures includes the 7k identified before the central bank examination


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## TrackerThieves (18 Jan 2018)

Original 13k identified should all be paid by march and second lot of 13k should be paid by June. Both governor lane and derville Rowland are confident this is on track and will happen.


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## Redman (18 Jan 2018)

Anyone know if the individual banks are due to update of who have been included after this from the CB 

Redman


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## Banemore (18 Jan 2018)

Padraic Kissane this evening on matt cooper at 5.20 and was on radio 1 this afternoon aswell.


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## Wardy7 (18 Jan 2018)

And six o’clock news!


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## Dunned (18 Jan 2018)

Michelle Hennessy from the Journal has been tweeting updates. She tweets "Lane says the rate at the time (say in 2008) would have been high because bank funding was through the roof . The Central Bank agrees with lenders in their evaluation of the "prevailing rate".


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## Thomas (18 Jan 2018)

Doesn’t explain why prevailing rate has not fallen since then even though bank’s cost of funds has plummeted!

Did Padraic mention anything about the ptsb prevailing rate when he was on the radio - or is he on it later this afternoon?


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## IdesofMarch (18 Jan 2018)

Thomas said:


> Doesn’t explain why prevailing rate has not fallen since then even though bank’s cost of funds has plummeted!
> 
> Did Padraic mention anything about the ptsb prevailing rate when he was on the radio - or is he on it later this afternoon?



It did not fall because the margin (which is fixed) was set at 3.67% above ECB by AIB


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## Thomas (18 Jan 2018)

IdesofMarch said:


> It did not fall because the margin (which is fixed) was set at 3.67% above ECB by AIB



I was refering to PTSB where they happily increased it over a period of time (went from 1.1 to 1.68 to 2.25 to 3.25) but have not reduced it.  Does that mean that if someone (who has been given a 3.25% rate) fixed now for a year in PTSB and then were entitled to be offered a tracker at the end of the fixed peirod, as the cost of funds are now so low PTSB would have to offer a lower margin than the current 3.25%.


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## IdesofMarch (18 Jan 2018)

I see, what year did you come off your fixed rate.


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## Thomas (18 Jan 2018)

i broke out of the 3 year fixed rate period in December 2008 (when the prevailing margin was 1.68) but my 3 year period expired in March 2010 so they have offered me my tracker back at 3.25%


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## IdesofMarch (18 Jan 2018)

Thomas said:


> i broke out of the 3 year fixed rate period in December 2008 (when the prevailing margin was 1.68) but my 3 year period expired in March 2010 so they have offered me my tracker back at 3.25%



Thomas,

If you broke out of the fixed rate in Dec 08, then, by CBI logic, you must be offered the prevailing rate existing at this point in time. You state that PTSB prevailing tracker rate fixed margin in Dec 2008 was 1.68%. That is the rate that your tracker mortgage margin should be above the ECB base rate. The bank's stance of offering you the prevailing tracker rate fixed margin that existed in March 2010 is a nonsense and is in conflict with the CBI in it's assessment Therefore you should set out your case in writing to PTSB as you come within the broad parameters of the current CBI mortgage tracker investigation. Send a letter (registered) to PTSB setting out your situation. Request that your tracker mortgage be included in their current mortgage tracker investigation as you are impacted customer.


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## Wardy7 (18 Jan 2018)

That’s not the CBI stance on prevailing rate. They said today that they are in agreement with the banks interpretation of it.


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## Thomas (18 Jan 2018)

The issue is whether it’s the prevailing rate at the end of the fixed period or, as I broke out early from my fixed period, is it the prevailing rate when I broke out I.e break date rate. Case is with the FSO at present!!


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## IdesofMarch (18 Jan 2018)

Wardy7 said:


> That’s not the CBI stance on prevailing rate. They said today that they are in agreement with the banks interpretation of it.



Thomas case is different, he broke out of his fixed rate term early. Therefore, he is entitled to the prevailing tracker rate existing at the time of the break out, not the one prevailing at the end of his fixed term.


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## IdesofMarch (18 Jan 2018)

Thomas said:


> The issue is whether it’s the prevailing rate at the end of the fixed period or, as I broke out early from my fixed period, is it the prevailing rate when I broke out I.e break date rate. Case is with the FSO at present!!



You should win.


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## Thomas (18 Jan 2018)

Fingers crossed!!!


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## Wardy7 (18 Jan 2018)

Oh, ok. So did I!


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## Redman (18 Jan 2018)

Hi idesofmarch,we drew down 30 sept 08 fixed for 2 years,we had been offered 2 fixed options a variable and a tracker to choose from the tracker rate was 5.75%(4.25 ecb+1.5% margin at the time of drawdown.
10 days later aib stopped offering trackers for new customers not a word of this happening was mentioned to us when talking with them about us buying their product.
According to Bernard Byrnes the banks view of the prevailing rate is “that it is the rate that prevails at the time at which the product is offered and that is how we consider it”.So 1.5% was the prevailing rate at the time of offer should this rate apply to our mortgage,your thoughts would be appreciated

Redman​


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## meepman (18 Jan 2018)

If that is true, then when PTSB were offering their new tracker rates when the dsicounted tracker expired, they should have been offering the tracker rate that was valid when the loan was first taken out and not when the discounted tracker expired. 
In this case the wording 'discounted tracker rate' would then be valid too.


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## TrackerThieves (18 Jan 2018)

I'm not too familiar with the prevailing rate issues but from what governor lane said today he seems to have sided with the banks on the prevailing rate and I would imagine they will set out what these rates would have been at certain points in time. increasing from october 2008 onwards.

I believe the banks fully knew what they were doing in getting people off their trackers and how they went about it, disgraceful that the central bank appear to be letting them off the hook here.


Did the banks introduce artificially low fixed rates in the first place to lure people off their trackers?
Did they waive fees that would have normally been charged and select which customers(ie those with trackers) could switch free of charge? This thread from 2008 seems to suggest that
Those in the prevailing rate scenario, would it be worth looking at the how and why the banks got customers off the trackers in the first place if central bank side with the banks on the prevailing rate?


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## Dan Murray (19 Jan 2018)

TrackerThieves said:


> I believe the banks fully knew what they were doing in getting people off their trackers and how they went about it, disgraceful that the central bank appear to be letting them off the hook here.



Mr. Lane admitted yesterday that the Central Bank had to look long and hard at the prevailing rate issue.

If what he says is true, it follows that the position was unclear, otherwise put, there was ambiguity.

My understanding is that the Central Bank's own code is that where ambiguity exists, it should be interpreted in the consumers' favour.

The CB has interpreted this ambiguity in the favour of banks. In other words, this is a complete _non sequitur_ - which is shameful but not surprising.

It was pretty sickening to observe the self-congratulatory tone of the CB yesterday - the truth is that they were dragged kicking and screaming by the Finance Committee into action. The Regulator simply did not regulate - comments like we've been on top of this since 2008 are ridiculous.

There was one very interesting moment yesterday when Mr. Lane clearly did not even know the upper limit of available sanctions on banks yesterday and had to be rescued by Ms. Rowland. Quite a scary level of incompetence.


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## joe351980 (19 Jan 2018)

Thomas said:


> i broke out of the 3 year fixed rate period in December 2008 (when the prevailing margin was 1.68) but my 3 year period expired in March 2010 so they have offered me my tracker back at 3.25%



I hate the term 'broke' you didn't brake you're contract. You only activated a clause in your contract allowing you to end your fixed rate period. 
The most you can be penalised is the financial loss to the bank from Dec 08 up to March 10. It says this in black and white


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## TrackerThieves (22 Jan 2018)

Just thought i'd post these here if anyone was intrested
Comitee meeting thursday 18 Jan 2018
Video
PDF


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## delsalmon (22 Jan 2018)

Thomas said:


> i broke out of the 3 year fixed rate period in December 2008 (when the prevailing margin was 1.68) but my 3 year period expired in March 2010 so they have offered me my tracker back at 3.25%



Hi Thomas I am in a similar situation. Ptsb. Drew down Dec 07, fixed rate til Dec 09. But April 09 broke out early. 
Offered 3.25% but in April 09 it was 2.25%, and standardisation sheet from Dec 07 was calculated at 1.1%. 
Currently being investigated by Ptsb, I'll be taking a case with fso if not happy with the outcome. 
Can you keep me informed by pm how your case goes please?
Thanks


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## Thomas (22 Jan 2018)

Will do - mediator said timeline for the investigation section is 12-18 months (moved into investigations in Oct) so may be a while!!


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## delsalmon (22 Jan 2018)

God, that's a ridiculous time to have to wait for something that seems so clear cut. I'll give you a heads up on mine. I'm supposed to hear back by end of this month. Then it's off to fso if I'm not happy. Thanks


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## Wardy7 (23 Jan 2018)

I have already officially complained to PTSB about this issue. Dates are very similar. Fixed rate due to expire April ‘10, but came out early in Jan ‘09.

They came back to say all is in order. I’m currently on 3.25%.

An with Padraic Kissane so still playing waiting game


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## Suz2015 (23 Jan 2018)

Did anybody hear Padraic on the radio this morning? I missed it  What was update on PTSB?


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## Milo4444 (23 Jan 2018)

Does anyone know when UB are being called?


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## Miakk (23 Jan 2018)

Can someone tell me what station Padraic was on this morning or send me a link to the podcast?


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## core123 (23 Jan 2018)

Hi @Miakk he was on Morning Ireland on the Business news section around 7:50 am

PTSB wasn't really mentioned in the interview so that is a little worrying for us PTSB account holders - KBC, First Active, EBS and Ulster were mentioned as ones that have question marks against them


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## Thomas (31 Jan 2018)

PTSB are up before the Finance Committee on 6th February @ 4pm - KBC are on at the same time - should be interesting!!


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