# Interest in a "green"/enviromental thread on AAM - practical slant.



## Betsy Og (18 Oct 2006)

Just wondering if theres scope for this.

What I mean by "practical slant" is that I'm not looking for a forum for bawling about whales, seals, liberalising spamspamspam, British Nuclear Power/incompetence, more to do with how everyone can help the environment in day to day life.

I read "Saving the planet without costing the earth" by Donnachda McCarthy and found it very intereting and informative. The thing is now to implement it. I think the whole green/environmental scene is turning the corner from the dreadlock hippy lecturing "capitalists" thing to "reduce/re-use/recycle", the power of one campaign etc., i.e. doing not whinging.

Things I'd like to discuss and share info on would be, as a sample:

Domestic scale hydroelectric (I have the stream, now to harness it)
Domestic Windpower - probably open to more households
Biodiesel to run diesel cars, natural fuel with fewer emmissions. This is one that about to "go live", theres one station in Charleville selling it. Havent implemented it myself as yet due to unresolved technical issues but I expect it to become mainstream in the next 5 years or so.
Real Nappies !!  see [broken link removed]
where or how to shop to minimise plastic wrapping etc.
rainwater harvesting in Ireland & "grey" water systems
One simple example I've implemented is using a shaving brush and soap (dove!) instead of spray foam or gel so not accumulating those arosol cans, led me to go for roll on deo (even though its a plastic bottle but still some bit better).

On the one hand I appreciate that this is a financial website but solutions such as the above have positive financial effects (as well as environmental) and the site covers plenty of topics that are not exclusively financial e.g. cars, electronics. To date I think issues such as the above have gone into homes and gardens but that section is so popular that it gets swallowed up.

So whaddaya think??


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## ubiquitous (18 Oct 2006)

The volume of replies to your post will help gauge the level of interest in this subject. I suspect that the minor impact that environmental issues have made on AAM to date is hardly going to change all of a sudden although I may be wrong.

As things stand I am heavily sceptical of the whole "saving the enviroment" movement/industry in Ireland and actually believe that in some cases it is doing more harm than good.

A few examples:
1. Ireland prides itself on the plastic bag levy. Yet nobody in this country ever pauses to consider why it has not been adopted elsewhere, especially if it was such a success here. In fact when the British Govt examined a proposal to bring in their own levy, a study they commissioned found that Ireland's levy was not environmentally friendly! Why? - apparently there has been an commensurate increase  in the numbers of heavy-duty plastic binbags, scented nappy bags and other plastic bags, purchased by Irish households since the levy was introduced. We are apparently consuming almost as many plastic bags as we did prior to the ban - but sourcing them through different channels. Never mind the gratuitous production of paper bags that are prone to tearing, and which fall apart as soon as they get wet, meaning that they are absolutely useless as an option for reuse.

2. I fail to see how the laundry and re-use of soiled nappies are beneficial to either public health or the environment. No doubt somebody has dreamt up a similar wheeze for toilet paper - no thanks!

3. The whole idea of wind energy appears to be a grim joke. The countryside is filling up with windmills that generate modest levels of power some of the time, and no power some of the time. At the same time the ESB are forced to continue burning fossil fuels on a continuous basis, as if we had no wind energy infrastructure - otherwise we would have power blackouts every time the wind stops blowing.


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## Bamhan (18 Oct 2006)

This looks interesting
[broken link removed]

Reducing waste is one area I am particularly interested in.


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## Betsy Og (18 Oct 2006)

We are apparently consuming almost as many plastic bags as we did prior to the ban - but sourcing them through different channels. 

I'm sure we're consuming more of just about everything but if they levy wasnt there wouldnt we consume more - thats the question. I cant say I ever saw someone use 20 shopping bags in the old days when putting out the bin. On the issue of reuse of bags there werent many cases of people bringing a load of old plastic shopping bags into town to reuse them, they just got more.

2. I fail to see how the laundry and re-use of soiled nappies are beneficial to either public health or the environment. 

Its suprising how quick you fill a bin bags with the things. Maybe this works and maybe it doesnt but I think its worth a look. Those on the website seem to think so. We're talking BILLIONS of nappies a year in landfills.

3. The whole idea of wind energy appears to be a grim joke. The countryside is filling up with windmills that generate modest levels of power some of the time, and no power some of the time. At the same time the ESB are forced to continue burning fossil fuels on a continuous basis, as if we had no wind energy infrastructure - otherwise we would have power blackouts every time the wind stops blowing.[/quote]

Maybe you're right but if we're going to be one of payers under Kyoto then you'd think it makes sense to try to switch, plus the oil price volatility issue.

As a very simple example of how simple things can work then what about home composting. Surely making compost for you garden (or just making a rotting heap if you've no use for the stuff) is a far better idea than packing it into a plastic bag, transporting it around the county and dumping it in such quantities that it could cause an environmental issue. & if you pay by weight it saves you on your bin charge


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## liteweight (18 Oct 2006)

> As a very simple example of how simple things can work then what about home composting. Surely making compost for you garden (or just making a rotting heap if you've no use for the stuff) is a far better idea than packing it into a plastic bag, transporting it around the county and dumping it in such quantities that it could cause an environmental issue. & if you pay by weight it saves you on your bin charge



Composting is a good idea especially if you're a gardener. You get to save on buying in compost as well as helping the environment. Having said that, we currently have the 'brown bins' on trial. I thought it was a great idea until I started using them. They are only collected every two weeks, done in rotation with the grey bin. We are charged for this. Almost two weeks ago, we had curry for dinner, there were leftover, which I dutifully put into the brown bin. Two weeks on....it absolutely stinks, and when you open the lid you're accosted by flies. The weather has been cold lately so I can only imagine what it'll be like in the summer!  Even when empty the bin has a foul smell. It's only been emptied twice and each time I've had to drag a hose from the back of the house to clean it out. Because I can't reach in with a scrubber....it still smells when it dries off!!

I may follow the example of a good deal of my neighbours and just stop using it.


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## ubiquitous (18 Oct 2006)

Hi Betsy

In relation to plastic bags levy, I wonder why the New Labour govt in the UK decided that the Irish levy was not environmentally friendly and/or worth pursuing in the UK. I would have imagined that Tony Blair would have loved to bring in something similar in the UK were it possible and/or feasible for him to do so. It disturbs me to some extent that the levy received pretty much universal and uncritical support here, yet none of our neighbours in the EU think its a good idea. Are we right or are they?

I see your point about how billions of nappies fill binbags and landfills but there is an equally valid point that laundry and drying of billions of nappies will necessitate the consumption and ultimate release into the environment of vast quantities of harmful chemicals from washing powders. On top of that you have also high energy costs. 

Wind energy will only help reduce carbon emissions, and help us to comply with Kyoto, if we can reach a stage where it is generating enough energy on a consistent basis to allow the decommissioning of some of our fossil fuel-burning plants. It appears that we are nowhere near reaching this stage despite the fact that windfarms seem to be popping up all over the country.


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## ubiquitous (18 Oct 2006)

Betsy Og said:


> I cant say I ever saw someone use 20 shopping bags in the old days when putting out the bin.



I am a parent of two small kids and my wife reckons we were using *80* nappy bags per week until our kids were toilet trained.


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## Purple (18 Oct 2006)

ubiquitous said:


> Hi Betsy
> I see your point about how billions of nappies fill binbags and landfills but there is an equally valid point that laundry and drying of billions of nappies will necessitate the consumption and ultimate release into the environment of vast quantities of harmful chemicals from washing powders. On top of that you have also high energy costs.


I'm sure there are plenty of chemicals used in the production of nappies. There must be quite a bit of energy used as well.


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## Superman (18 Oct 2006)

As an architect, I do try and promote effective eco-friendly technologies.  I am fairly sceptical about stuff though so the stuff I would promote would be based around reducing energy usage.

So 1:
a. Insulate the house as much as you can.  
Avoid draughts, if possible - in particular chimneys (though it is possible to put in a device which closes the flue when not in use). Go for stoves instead.

b. Heat recovery ventilation is fairly effective - take heat out of utility room, kitchen and bathroom.  

c. Any time you have to heat water, you are wasting huge amounts of electricity.  So avoid this as much as possible by:
i. Using solar water heating (or at least providing pipework to install it easily at a future stage) for home heating and water for showers etc.
ii. Avoid using your tumble dryer - (consider using your garage to dry clothes - and include mesh covered opes to prevent wind blown rain getting in, while improving ventilation)

There's other stuff about layout and materials as well - but that's a start.


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## Leo (19 Oct 2006)

liteweight said:


> Almost two weeks ago, we had curry for dinner, there were leftover, which I dutifully put into the brown bin. Two weeks on....it absolutely stinks, and when you open the lid you're accosted by flies.


 
Doensn't seem to be clearly stated on the corpo site, but cooked food should not be composted. Wormeries are the way to go for this kind of material.


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## Betsy Og (19 Oct 2006)

with a dog and a compost bin we dont have food waste to bin anymore  - and the odd bit of food that the dog wouldnt eat (say, old suace jars) if you empty the contents into the middle of the compost bin where its well shielded by composting waste then I'd be happy enough that not a vermin risk, so far so god anyway.


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## nelly (19 Oct 2006)

yes its a great idea - energy saving, waste reduction etc are all increasingly important and relevant now more than ever.


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## Purple (19 Oct 2006)

Reduce is much more important than recycle


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## Bamhan (19 Oct 2006)

Leo said:


> Doensn't seem to be clearly stated on the corpo site, but cooked food should not be composted. Wormeries are the way to go for this kind of material.



You can put it in the green cone see link above.


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## Fingalian (19 Oct 2006)

Superman,
'Heat recovery ventilation is fairly effective - take heat out of utility room, kitchen and bathroom.'

Would it be possible to take heat out from a room that is using a woodburning stove and redistribute it to other rooms in the house? Do you have any more info on HRV? Thanks,
F


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## Betsy Og (19 Oct 2006)

Irish real nappies on this link:


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## liteweight (19 Oct 2006)

Leo said:


> Doensn't seem to be clearly stated on the corpo site, but cooked food should not be composted. Wormeries are the way to go for this kind of material.



Yes you're right, cooked food shouldn't be composted. I rang CC specifically to ask if the literature I'd been given was correct. It is...leftover cooked food, meat etc. but no ash of any kind, also no soil. Friends in England were supplied with wormeries by their local councils. I asked if CC would consider something like this instead of brown bin. Never heard of wormeries (at least the person I was talking to hadn't).

The problem I have now is that if I put the cooked left over waste in the grey bin, it also remains sitting outside for two weeks. At least I could wrap it in a plastic bag though!


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## Bamhan (20 Oct 2006)

We have that system of every second week for the bins for a few years now.
It is dreadful to have a full bin sitting there for over a week.

In Limerick City they collect the regular waste bin every week and supply clear biodegradable plastic bags for the recyclable waste and also collect these every week. Makes much more sense.


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## liteweight (20 Oct 2006)

Bamhan said:


> We have that system of every second week for the bins for a few years now.
> It is dreadful to have a full bin sitting there for over a week.
> 
> In Limerick City they collect the regular waste bin every week and supply clear biodegradable plastic bags for the recyclable waste and also collect these every week. Makes much more sense.



That's a much better idea! Why can't all the county councils do that!


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## ClubMan (21 Oct 2006)

ubiquitous said:


> As things stand I am heavily sceptical of the whole "saving the enviroment" movement/industry in Ireland and actually believe that in some cases it is doing more harm than good.


Skepticism is good - in this as in any context. This site and the book might be of interest to you and anybody else genuinely interested in "environmental" issues and prepared not prepared to just accept lip service and populist stances on the matter:

Official webpage for Bjorn Lomborg and The Skeptical Environmentalist


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## Betsy Og (23 Oct 2006)

Re skepticism and its value, I dont doubt it. I'm not one for dashing around clucking that the sky is falling in. Doom merchants wouldnt get much of a hearing from me.

All that said, what is the harm in people trying to do their bit so that they, personally, minimise their environmental impact? The problem I see with environmentalist thought is that the natural conclusion of it is that we should either like in a high rise block across the road from work, or it an earthen mound in the countryside.

So my focus is on realistic changes people can make, changes that dont run your life upside down or cost you a fortune. Changes that could be replicated in hundreds of thousands of households and then make a difference even if individually insignificant. Now neither you nor I can influence the population so I'd leave the crusading to others.

I think many people would make changes if they knew what to do and it was made accessible to them.

So, for instance, if I got a micro hydro electric unit going that ran my house I'd be delighted to share this knowledge with someone else interested. We wouldnt be singlehandedly saving the earth and claiming the high moral ground to pontificate a holier than thou view, but it would make a difference in terms of our personal contricbution to the environment (plus I'd hope to have the investment pay back after a few years).

I'm surprised in fact at the level of negativity to this thread. I dont mind arguing the views that certain steps may or may not be worthwhile but the vibe I'm getting is that its all just a waste of time... not to be encouraged. I thought at worst it would get the "another deluded idealist" reception, I wasnt expecting an almost "anti" reaction.


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## zag (25 Oct 2006)

Betsy - I agree with the broad thrust of what you are aiming for.

In terms of the plastic bag levy - I think it is a great idea and has worked very well in the shops.  The argument of whether or not other countries have adopted it is not relevant to whether it is a good idea or is working here as a way to reduce plastic consumption.  Pure observation tells me that people are now consuming a tiny fraction of the quantity of bags that they used to at the check-out.  It was not unusual to see people getting a single plastic wrapped product put into another plastic bag in the old days - this is very rare now.  It was not unusual (before I mended my ways) to come home from the shops with 10-15 bags.  Multiply that by the number of customers passing through a single large supermarket per minute and you can see the huge volume of bags that were being consumed.  General observation indicates that the problem described as 'witches knickers' where plastic bags were to be seen in many hedgerows is greatly diminshed.

The whole debate surrounding whether it will take more energy to do X than to keep doing the old Y is also not great in my view.  *IF* we accept/believe that at least some current practices are 'bad' (for any definition of bad there will always be some practice that each person regards as bad) then as individuals we ought to investigate ways to improve or change the practice.  It is inevitable that some of the changes will not work, or will not be as efficient, or will cause other side effects, but if we never move for change then we are stuck by definition with the current state and 'bad' practices.  We can't get every change right, but if we never try to change then we *know* the status quo will remain.

On the wind/hydro debate - there is an inherent unwillingness to move from existing insfrastructure for a number of reasons including the money already invested in these projects, but this in itself should not be used as a basis not to pursue other avenues *if* we accept that existing fossil fuel based methods are only going to become more expensive over time.  I ain't no hydro-what-not engineer, but I find it hard to believe that on an island nation we would not be able to deploy enough hydro and wind based platforms to ensure continuous supply.  I accept that there would always need to be an alternate supply for the time when we are becalmed for a few weeks, but in the same way there is also a need for an alternate supply when fossil fuel prices become prohibitive or supplies are serverly curtailed.

z


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