# Ombudsman puts case on hold due to appeal by Ulster Bank in similar case



## john_mcm (24 Aug 2022)

Hi Guys,

After 2 years of adjudication with the ombudsman they have came back to me today and said due to the similarities in my case to one in which they upheld in June 2021 and were subsequently served with high court proceedings by the financial institution (Ulster Bank) my case needs to be postponed until the outcome of the high court case is known as it may impact on my case.

This has been very disheartening response after so long and I'm just curious as to why it took them 2 years to realise that my case was similar to this other case?

Also is there a way to check if the case is listed with the high court on their site? Does anybody have any idea of timeframes for something like this? They were served in July 2021 so over a year at this stage. 

Thanks.
John


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## SaySomething (24 Aug 2022)

Was it a straight appeal on compensation awarded or something different John?

Not good news for any of us in adjudication tbh.


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## Brendan Burgess (24 Aug 2022)

Hi John

That is good news for you, even if it doesn't seem like it.

This is what must have happened. 

The Ombudsman found in favour of someone in a similar position to you. 
Ulster Bank appealed it to the High Court. 

So, it would be very likely that the Ombudsman would uphold your case. But there is no point in upholding it, only to have it appealed.

The Ombudsman wins over 90% of their cases in the High Court.  So your chances of winning have gone up from 50% to about 90%.

Brendan


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## Brendan Burgess (24 Aug 2022)

I am fed up trying to find cases on the Courts Service website, but here are the references if you want to find them yourself.  Even if you do find them, you won't get much information.






Brendan


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## SaySomething (24 Aug 2022)

Once judgement has been made you should be able to find it on courts.ie or baiilli.org but you can’t see a filing withott requesting a copy in person. 

When I say it’s bad news, it’s in the context of many years in the FSPO process and waiting longer.


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## Brendan Burgess (24 Aug 2022)

SaySomething said:


> When I say it’s bad news,



When you say it's bad news, you are wrong.

It is not bad news. 

Brendan


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## john_mcm (25 Aug 2022)

SaySomething said:


> Was it a straight appeal on compensation awarded or something different John?
> 
> Not good news for any of us in adjudication tbh.


Ulster bank in their opinion said we were not impacted by the tracker mortgage issue, we had a tracker of 0.75% above ECB so maybe they just wanted to push it to see if we would appeal because of the rate we were on but we have all the supporting documentation so we appealed that decision to the ombudsman - basically on tracker, fixed for 2 or 3 years wouldn't give tracker back, same as many others here.


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## john_mcm (25 Aug 2022)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Hi John
> 
> That is good news for you, even if it doesn't seem like it.
> 
> ...


Hi Brendan,

Yeah I was hoping that myself but just annoyed at the whole process with the ombudsman, received an email from them a couple of weeks before saying a final decision was being drafted so thought we were finally at the end only to be told now we have more waiting to do and now it depends on the outcome of a high court case but I get your point so hopefully they will win this also.


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## Brendan Burgess (25 Aug 2022)

It was Ulster Bank's policy to contest complaints all the way to the end with the Ombudsman. In many cases, the borrower just gave up.  If the borrower showed no sign of giving up, then Ulster settled just before the decision.

My only criticism of the Ombudsman in this issue is that they don't prioritise systemic complaints.  If they had 20 complaints from UB customers on this issue, they should have taken 3 of them and prioritised them and put the rest on hold.  But they should have been dealt with ahead of all the people with one-off complaints that had no implications for other people. 

In your case, if the Ombudsman upheld your complaint, then Ulster Bank would appeal it to the High Court. So you would be no better off.  You would have been elated for 30 days and then delated when Ulster Bank issued legal proceedings. 

Brendan


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## john_mcm (25 Aug 2022)

Brendan Burgess said:


> It was Ulster Bank's policy to contest complaints all the way to the end with the Ombudsman. In many cases, the borrower just gave up.  If the borrower showed no sign of giving up, then Ulster settled just before the decision.
> 
> My only criticism of the Ombudsman in this issue is that they don't prioritise systemic complaints.  If they had 20 complaints from UB customers on this issue, they should have taken 3 of them and prioritised them and put the rest on hold.  But they should have been dealt with ahead of all the people with one-off complaints that had no implications for other people.
> 
> ...


To be honest I didn't really know anything of the inner workings of the bank like most people I suppose until it lands on your door and you have no choice but to try and deal with them. They have been an absolute nightmare to deal with to be fair, been a tough few years.

That was my criticism too that if they had similar cases they should be grouped together rather than dealing with everyone individually and not getting any real answers for 2 years. 

As you said though it would have been worse to have the case upheld to then be told it is being appealed so hopefully the outcome will be a positive one and not take another 2 years. We'll see, thanks for the responses all.


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## JMexubbanker (29 Aug 2022)

Hi John
My case has been with the FSPO since 2018 and we were told a year ago we are inpacted by a case that was upheld and caught up with the court case also. As per usual radio silence from Ulster Bank.
I do think its a positive that if the similar case was upheld ours would likely be too, obviously every case is unique. Its a waiting game and interesting to see how UB will play it with them withdrawing from the Irish market.


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## Brendan Burgess (29 Aug 2022)

It should not matter that they are leaving the market. 

In fact, I thought it would have been a positive that they would have cleared all these up before moving them to ptsb. 

I presume that they won't be moved now. 

Brendan


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## Banking17 (10 Oct 2022)

Brendan Burgess said:


> I am fed up trying to find cases on the Courts Service website, but here are the references if you want to find them yourself.  Even if you do find them, you won't get much information.
> 
> View attachment 6556
> 
> Brendan


 I see UB appeal case listed for High Court tomorrow.  Wonder if any affected UB customers like I have any confirmation?


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## Brendan Burgess (10 Oct 2022)

@Banking17 

Well spotted. Looks as if it's going ahead tomorrow and not just down for mention.

IN COURT 29
MS JUSTICE BOLGER
AT 10.30 O'CLOCK
2018 925 S A B C CREDIT UNION LTD & ANOR -V- SAINT RAPHAELS GARDA CREDIT UNION LTD
2021-174-MCA-ULSTER BANK DAC -V- FINANCIAL SERVICES AND PENSIONS OMBUDSMAN;
2021-173-MCA-ULSTER BANK DAC -V- FINANCIAL SERVICES AND PENSIONS OMBUDSMAN;
2021-137-MCA-ULSTER BANK IRELAND DAC -V- FINANCIAL SERVICES AND PENSIONS OMBUDSMAN


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## john_mcm (11 Oct 2022)

That is good to hear, I suppose we will have to wait and see but it would be great if it did, will the outcome of these be listed anywhere?


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## Brendan Burgess (11 Oct 2022)

I understand that it's just a procedural issue today. 

Brendan


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## john_mcm (11 Oct 2022)

Brendan Burgess said:


> I understand that it's just a procedural issue today.
> 
> Brendan


Disappointing, what do you mean by procedural?


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## Brendan Burgess (11 Oct 2022)

john_mcm said:


> what do you mean by procedural?



It means I don't know what I am talking about. 

The case is actually going ahead today!

Brendan


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## john_mcm (11 Oct 2022)

Brendan Burgess said:


> It means I don't know what I am talking about.
> 
> The case is actually going ahead today!
> 
> Brendan


Thanks Brendan, happens to the best of us 
That is great news, any idea on how long it takes from a decision to it being made public or available?


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## Brendan Burgess (11 Oct 2022)

Hi John

I don't even know which issues are being challenged.

If there are three different issues the case could take a few days and it usually takes the Judge a few months to issue a decision.

Brendan


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## peemac (11 Oct 2022)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Hi John
> 
> I don't even know which issues are being challenged.
> 
> ...


Main issue seems that these are mortgages that were taken out before trackers arrived on the market. The customers then requested a move o a tracker, then they requested a move to a fixed rate and then they did not take up any of the options and reverted back to the standard rate that the original mortgage was on.

UB's argument is that you don't revert to the immediate previous rate. I can see some merit in their argument, but can't see it succeeding as a customer would have seen the move to a tracker as a permanent rate change whereas a move to a fixed rate is a change for just that period and that should then revert to the rate of the most recent permanent change when that period is up.

My money is on a  win for the Ombudsman


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## john_mcm (11 Oct 2022)

Yeah thought it might take a bit of time, thanks for the updates, much appreciated.


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## john_mcm (11 Oct 2022)

peemac said:


> Main issue seems that these are mortgages that were taken out before trackers arrived on the market. The customers then requested a move o a tracker, then they requested a move to a fixed rate and then they did not take up any of the options and reverted back to the standard rate that the original mortgage was on.
> 
> UB's argument is that you don't revert to the immediate previous rate. I can see some merit in their argument, but can't see it succeeding as a customer would have seen the move to a tracker as a permanent rate change whereas a move to a fixed rate is a change for just that period and that should then revert to the rate of the most recent permanent change when that period is up.
> 
> My money is on a  win for the Ombudsman


If that is the issue with these cases I am not sure how it would relate to mine as my mortgage was taken out as a tracker rate originally so may be not related to my case either way hopefully the Ombudsman gets the result.


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## Brendan Burgess (11 Oct 2022)

Ulster Bank says ombudsman made ‘serious errors’ in tracker compensation cases
					

Bank says contract terms agreed by mortgage customer did not provide for a return to a tracker rate




					www.irishtimes.com


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## Brendan Burgess (11 Oct 2022)

That report is updated now with details of all three cases.

Brendan


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## SaySomething (11 Oct 2022)

Interesting that Ulster Bank say that they want to rely on previous rulings. The FSPO maintains that they assess each case individually. It's going to be interesting to read the transcripts!


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## Banking17 (12 Oct 2022)

Any coverage or reports on today's proceedings


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## The Don (12 Oct 2022)

Banking17 said:


> Any coverage or reports on today's proceedings











						Ulster Bank tracker cases may affect ‘thousands’ of customers, court hears
					

Bank is appealing against three decisions of Financial Services and Pensions Ombudsman




					www.irishtimes.com


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## Banking17 (12 Oct 2022)

The Don said:


> Ulster Bank tracker cases may affect ‘thousands’ of customers, court hears
> 
> 
> Bank is appealing against three decisions of Financial Services and Pensions Ombudsman
> ...


Thanks Very Interesting.  A long way to go it appears.


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## Brendan Burgess (12 Oct 2022)

I have summarised the case in a new thread here: 






						Ulster - Summary of Ulster Bank's challenge to the Ombudsman decision
					

This is based on Joe Brennan's Irish Times report   https://www.irishtimes.com/business/2022/10/12/ulster-bank-tracker-cases-may-affect-thousands-of-customers-court-hears/  April 2004 took out a mortgage on a one year reduced rate which would default to the home loan rate after the end of Year...



					www.askaboutmoney.com


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