# Legal fees - Probate



## J.P. (16 Oct 2019)

Hi,
I’m the executor of my aunt's will. My aunt, who was unmarried,passed recently and she has left her estate to her four nieces / nephews (myself being one of them) in her will. My aunts estate has a total value of €1.05M , this consists of an apartment with a market value of €350,000 (which will be sold when probate is granted) and the remainder of her estate is in bank accounts. 

As I have never been through the process of probate, etc…... before and being somewhat overwhelmed by the whole process,  I approached my own solicitor about doing the necessary work involved and they provided me with a fixed fee quote in a Section 68 letter of €15,000 + VAT (which includes all outlays) to do the following work -

Process the grant of probate application
Do the conveyancing work re. the sale of the apartment when probate is granted
Do the Revenue CAT returns for the four beneficiaries of the will on distribution of the estate.
My preference is for my own solicitor to do this work, as I have always found them good & very professional - but my issue is that I have absolutely no idea if the fee quoted of €15,000 + VAT is a reasonable price or not for the scope of work outlined ? I want to be fair in all of my dealings as executor, but I also want to ensure that I’m being treated fairly in return.  Your views re. the legal fees in question would be appreciated.

Regards,

JP


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## HollowKnight (17 Oct 2019)

Just get more quotes and compare.


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## RedOnion (17 Oct 2019)

Shop around and get some quotes.

Have a look at the following thread about half way down to get an idea. When comparing fees, I generally look at the professional fees only - outlays will the same no matter who you go with, but some quotes might not include items you have to pay.





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						What Solicitor Should Charge For Uncomplicated Probate
					

Just wondering what a solicitor should charge for probate. Looking for a fixed fee, south Dublin or city centre. Its quite uncomplicated. House in joint names already, and accounts held by one parent need to be transferred to the other parent who is the sole beneficiary (1-3 accounts /...



					www.askaboutmoney.com


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## Barney Magoo (17 Oct 2019)

Have you considered a personal application? It is not so onerous really, I've just completed the process on a similar sounding estate.


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## noproblem (17 Oct 2019)

I think that's working out at 1.5% which is not dear I would imagine unless you want to do it yourself. Remember, your own solicitor knows the whole story of the case and understands fully the situation as well. There's a fair amount of work needing an experienced hand on this and you have it in what he's doing. I'd imagine you won't get it done much cheaper but might have your eyes opened by some of the quotes you may get. The devil you know and all that is appropriate in your case. I'd go with it, it's not that anyone has to put their hands in their pockets to pay for it so to speak.


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## Seagull (17 Oct 2019)

Does that fee include selling the property?


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## J.P. (17 Oct 2019)

Hi Seagull,

Yes, the fee includes doing the conveyancing work re. the sale of the property.


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## Clamball (17 Oct 2019)

I think if it includes selling the property it is good value, my husband is doing this for his mother’s estate presently and it is somewhere about €5 - €7 K without selling the property so another approx €6 K for selling the property brings it to roughly €12K and you are in and around this as well.   Shopping around will probably get you a more competitive quote so you could get a couple of grand off your quote with a bit of haggling.  My husband had fair deal in there as well, not sure if this was your aunts case too so that might add a bit of complication.


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## RedOnion (17 Oct 2019)

Clamball said:


> another approx €6 K for selling the property


6k for conveyancing??? 
Seriously?


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## gnf_ireland (17 Oct 2019)

J.P. said:


> My preference is for my own solicitor to do this work, as I have always found them good & very professional - but my issue is that I have absolutely no idea if the fee quoted of €15,000 + VAT is a reasonable price or not for the scope of work outlined ?


I went through something similar recently although I was not directly involved and could only push it so far. The family solicitor quoted nearly 24k for an estate of close to 2m, but the majority was a family farm. One benefactor - the deceased's wife, and nothing to sell either. I was astounded by this and felt it was a total ripoff.
I then went and got 5 quotes from different solicitors in the area, and they ranged from 6k to 50k, with the average being close to 12k.

I have to admit, I do not see how anyone can justify pricing of probate based on asset value, rather than work to be done. I will have to have a deal done with my own solicitor to make sure the probate price is agreed upfront, as I would not leave than experience to my next of kin when the time comes !


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## elacsaplau (18 Oct 2019)

Hi gnf_ireland,

That's scandalous and in my opinion probably unethical but legal!

The €50k from a stranger and the family solicitor charging €24k for what should be a very simple job!


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## elcato (18 Oct 2019)

elacsaplau said:


> The €50k from a stranger and the family solicitor charging €24k for *what should be a very simple job*!


In your opinion. As with everything there can be complications or the job is not that straightforward. As always, people can choose to do it themselves but I am more than prepared to pay to make sure the job is done correctly by a professional.


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## Bronte (18 Oct 2019)

Clamball said:


> I think if it includes selling the property it is good value, my husband is doing this for his mother’s estate presently and it is somewhere about €5 - €7 K without selling the property so another approx €6 K for selling the property brings it to roughly €12K and you are in and around this as well.   Shopping around will probably get you a more competitive quote so you could get a couple of grand off your quote with a bit of haggling.  My husband had fair deal in there as well, not sure if this was your aunts case too so that might add a bit of complication.


6 K for the conveyance is the highest I've heard of in a long time.


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## Seagull (18 Oct 2019)

My mother worked in the estates department for a large accounting firm. They used to give the option of asset based or time based fees.


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## Bronte (18 Oct 2019)

gnf_ireland said:


> I went through something similar recently although I was not directly involved and could only push it so far. The family solicitor quoted nearly 24k for an estate of close to 2m, but the majority was a family farm. One benefactor - the deceased's wife, and nothing to sell either. I was astounded by this and felt it was a total ripoff.
> I then went and got 5 quotes from different solicitors in the area, and they ranged from 6k to 50k, with the average being close to 12k.
> 
> I have to admit, I do not see how anyone can justify pricing of probate based on asset value, rather than work to be done. I will have to have a deal done with my own solicitor to make sure the probate price is agreed upfront, as I would not leave than experience to my next of kin when the time comes !



The fee used to be based on a percentage of the estate. That was banned. But it doesn't stop solicitors actually basing their quotes on the size of the estate.  

As regards your will.  You should inform your executors that there is no need for them to use the solicitor who holds the will to do the probate as it would be impossible for dead you to inform them of the deal you had done with your solicitor.  .


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## Bronte (18 Oct 2019)

J.P. said:


> Hi,
> Your views re. the legal fees in question would be appreciated.


If it's just one conveyance and collecting money from bank accounts it sounds simple enough so the fee sounds high to me. You need to shop around.  If you are good with paperwork then you can do it yourself and hire a solicitor to do the conveyance.  There are many threads on here of how posters managed it.


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## cremeegg (18 Oct 2019)

Bronte said:


> If it's just one conveyance and collecting money from bank accounts it sounds simple enough so the fee sounds high to me. You need to shop around.  If you are good with paperwork then you can do it yourself and hire a solicitor to do the conveyance.



You don't actually need a solicitor for conveyancing either. And although I have always thought it foolish not to use one, a €6,000 fee might make me think twice.


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## Bronte (18 Oct 2019)

cremeegg said:


> You don't actually need a solicitor for conveyancing either. And although I have always thought it foolish not to use one, a €6,000 fee might make me think twice.


I agree with you there, particularly if selling.  But I wouldn't advise it.  For 6K yes.  I'd prefer to pay the fee and be done with it.


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## mf1 (18 Oct 2019)

"You don't actually need a solicitor for conveyancing either.  "

In 35 years in practice, I've never seen any lay person attempt to do their own conveyancing. For very good reason. 

I wouldn't act for a purchaser trying to buy in those circumstances - I'd just end up doing the whole lot. 

I'd be as reluctant to act for a vendor selling to a lay conveyancer purchaser- the file would end up on my desk for years as they kept coming back with queries from the PRAI. 

And just to get back to the OP, the quote is on the high side for a small/family type firm but in the ballpark for any of the bigger firms.

Horses for courses.

mf


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## gnf_ireland (19 Oct 2019)

Bronte said:


> The fee used to be based on a percentage of the estate. That was banned. But it doesn't stop solicitors actually basing their quotes on the size of the estate.


Exactly - it does not stop them doing it - and I cannot see how the value of the estate has anything to do with the effort required to process the probate. The simple answer is the solicitors in this case are taking advantage of the person, just because the estate has a reasonable level of cash and because they are of the generation where solicitors are treated as people of esteem and privilege in the community they don't want to rock the boat. I have done all I can, including showing them the other quotes but they have agreed to proceed with the quote. Needless to say I have a lump bitten out of my tongue at this stage


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## gnf_ireland (19 Oct 2019)

Bronte said:


> As regards your will. You should inform your executors that there is no need for them to use the solicitor who holds the will to do the probate as it would be impossible for dead you to inform them of the deal you had done with your solicitor.


Agree, and I will instruct them to get 5 quotes before proceeding with the probate work.
As regard informing them - I have supplied a letter of wishes to the executors, and I can of course update that to show the details etc. But yes, you are right  - probably need to just instruct them to get 5 different quotes rather than trying to sort it out before I die. Ah the joys


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## gnf_ireland (19 Oct 2019)

elcato said:


> n your opinion. As with everything there can be complications or the job is not that straightforward. As always, people can choose to do it themselves but I am more than prepared to pay to make sure the job is done correctly by a professional.


@elcato  Yes of course it could be more complicated and the job not as straight forward - but maybe the quote should not start with the worst possible case and maybe treat difficulties as they arise
The 24k quote was provided once the full estate was assessed etc, and was the first time any sort of quote was provided. Given the detail of the estate, and a comparison I have with a similar sized estate where the person died intestate with no children so the estate had to be sold and divided amount 21 first cousins - the charge in that case of half this estate, with one beneficiary and no sale of any assets.

Most people, even on this site, do not want to hassle of doing it themselves. Most people off this site are not financially literate enough (in general) to be able to do it themselves. So yes, they will default and get a solicitor to do it for them.

The problem in this case is the family insisted on using the family solicitor (we have used them for years without an issue), and then get landed with a 24k bill. I personally think the solicitors should have to advise any family of some indicative quote before they start the work, as a benchmark.


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## Bronte (21 Oct 2019)

gnf_ireland said:


> Agree, and I will instruct them to get 5 quotes before proceeding with the probate work.
> As regard informing them - I have supplied a letter of wishes to the executors, and I can of course update that to show the details etc. But yes, you are right  - probably need to just instruct them to get 5 different quotes rather than trying to sort it out before I die. Ah the joys


What kind of things do you have the letter of wishes if you don't mind my asking.


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## elcato (21 Oct 2019)

gnf_ireland said:


> Yes of course it could be more complicated and the job not as straight forward - but maybe the quote should not start with the worst possible case and maybe treat difficulties as they arise


I'm not disagreeing with you but my comment was based on people using terms in this thread such as 'what should be a very simple job' and 'total ripoff' and 'taking advantage of'. Solicitors have souls too you know !


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## cbreeze (23 Oct 2019)

Before  a solicitor is chosen the OP should contact the local probate office and request the information pack which is provided for personal applicants.  I've been through the process myself and it is very straightforward.  The fees are fixed and you can pay by card - information is on the Courts Service website, plus the forms which can be downloaded. The OP would have to do a bit of research for the solicitors anyway so he/she might has well save the money.


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## gnf_ireland (24 Oct 2019)

elcato said:


> Solicitors have souls too you know !


I think you mean to say some solicitors have souls  I am not convinced all do - but probably no different to most professions !


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## gnf_ireland (24 Oct 2019)

Bronte said:


> What kind of things do you have the letter of wishes if you don't mind my asking.


Hi Bronte,
As the estate will be put into trust for my two children in the event both my wife and I pass away, the letter of wishes is to provide some guidance to the executors. We also have done another one for the nominated trustees. We know neither are mandatory to follow the details of the letters, but its more to give guidance to both on what our wishes would be. I plan to update them every 5 years (its just handing them to the solicitor and asking for the other one back!!)

There are four main elements to the executor one:
 - Instructions on what I would like to do with the family home - i.e. sell it or rent it out for future use by the girls.
 - My accountants details to support the closure/sale of the company, as well as historical tax items to consider
 - The request to get 3 quotes on any costs to be incurred by the estate greater than 1k
 - A password for shared drive account where I update a list of assets roughly once a quarter ! The file itself is also password protected and includes that password as well. The idea is the executors have a rough idea of the various assets and can track back through the bank statements as needed since the last time the file was updated. Otherwise, with everyone online (and potentially international) these days, it could be impossible to find assets

Nothing really too exciting, but more to make their role easier...


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## Thirsty (24 Oct 2019)

To be honest, as far as the letter of wishes go, you trust your executors with regards to your children, so you might as well trust them on financial decisions.

You can't control your affairs from beyond the grave.

Far better to write down your feelings on funeral services, what you would like done with your Lego Collection, momentoes to friends etc.


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## gnf_ireland (25 Oct 2019)

Thirsty said:


> you trust your executors with regards to your children


Absolutely not - the nominated guardians are trusted with regards to the children, not the executors 



Thirsty said:


> You can't control your affairs from beyond the grave.


As I said in the above note, the detail is more about providing information for them to make their jobs easier. The only real request is around the family home and what to do with that.



Thirsty said:


> Far better to write down your feelings on funeral services,


I seriously doubt anyone will go looking for a will prior to the funeral arrangements being made. I would hope most would wait a few days anyway, especially if both my wife and I were to pass away together !

The aim is not to control my financial affairs beyond the grave. It is simply to provide a few 'pointers' to the executors on what I would like done in certain cases, that they can take on board or not. 

Each to their own of course ! I have spoken to my executors, and both have said they would appreciate the 'assistance' from beyond the grave !


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## Bronte (25 Oct 2019)

Thirsty said:


> To be honest, as far as the letter of wishes go, you trust your executors with regards to your children, so you might as well trust them on financial decisions.
> 
> You can't control your affairs from beyond the grave.



That's my view of it too.  If I'm trusting the guardians with my children they can do what they feel is in the best interests of my children.  I'd rather they had to power to for example buy a bigger house for themselves if they are taking in my children etc.  I'm more interested that my children are well taken care of even if it means the guardians (sibling) aren't so great with money. 

But I do agree with GNF on listing the assets.  And past tax returns.  (actually I'll just give them my accountants details).


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## Bronte (25 Oct 2019)

gnf_ireland said:


> Hi Bronte,
> As the estate will be put into trust for my two children in the event both my wife and I pass away, the letter of wishes is to provide some guidance to the executors. We also have done another one for the nominated trustees. We know neither are mandatory to follow the details of the letters, but its more to give guidance to both on what our wishes would be. I plan to update them every 5 years (its just handing them to the solicitor and asking for the other one back!!)
> 
> There are four main elements to the executor one:
> ...


Thanks GNF.  

My view of the family home is that children can't stay in it and they have to live somewhere. So better to sell it.  I wouldn't be looking for 3 quotes for 1K costs. I'd make that 5K.  You get hardly anything for 1K !  And you're making the exector job more difficult (speaking as an executor !) I hope your executors are computer literate and that you don't forget to change the password on the instructions when you change it in real life !  But the list of assets and bank accounts etc is a good idea.


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## Thirsty (25 Oct 2019)

"anyone will go looking for a will prior to the funeral arrangements being made"

Letter of wishes is separate to your will; you can leave a copy with spouse / relatives etc.


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## gnf_ireland (25 Oct 2019)

Bronte said:


> If I'm trusting the guardians with my children they can do what they feel is in the best interests of my children. I'd rather they had to power to for example buy a bigger house for themselves if they are taking in my children etc. I'm more interested that my children are well taken care of even if it means the guardians (sibling) aren't so great with money.



In my case, I have separated the roles of executor, trustees and guardians. The executors are friends I trust to handle the estate and set up the trust for the children. Once that is done, that ask has been completed. Their role only kicks in if my wife is unable to perform the duties.

Given the potential size of the estate (like most people I am worth a lot more dead than alive), we were advised it was a good idea to split the trustees role from the guardian one to avoid potential issues in the future. All roles are provided by siblings, and the trustees have been informed to assist the guardians financially in any way possible, for the best interests of the children.



Bronte said:


> My view of the family home is that children can't stay in it and they have to live somewhere. So better to sell it.


This really depends on the size of the remaining estate, and at what age both myself and my wife may pass away at. If for example the girls were 15 and 17 when I pass away, there should be no reason to have to sell the house, as its likely they will have a strong emotional attachment to it. Its also very close to a number of universities, so no reason they should not wish to use if it they go to college in Dublin. If we were to pass away now (when the girls are 7 & 5), its potentially a different matter. That said, the level of life assurance both of us carry between us should mean there is absolutely no reason to have to sell the family home for financial reasons alone.



Bronte said:


> I wouldn't be looking for 3 quotes for 1K costs. I'd make that 5K. You get hardly anything for 1K ! And you're making the exector job more difficult (speaking as an executor !)


Fair enough, and its something I am likely to consider over time. The wishes can always be ignored anyway by the executors 
Its more to not accept a 50k probate bill from some solicitor, without a few other quotes to compare against !!



Bronte said:


> I hope your executors are computer literate and that you don't forget to change the password on the instructions when you change it in real life


Of course !! The executors have been selected carefully



Bronte said:


> But the list of assets and bank accounts etc is a good idea.


Glad I am doing something right


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## gnf_ireland (25 Oct 2019)

Thirsty said:


> Letter of wishes is separate to your will; you can leave a copy with spouse / relatives etc.



My wife is fully aware of all of this anyway, as we had a long chat about it at the time, and also had another one after one of our parents passed away recently. If both of us pass away, I would prefer the families focus on the girls needed during that time. If all of us pass away, then sure that will be the least of everyone's worries !!


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