# Inheritance theft, EPOA



## GoldWings (19 Aug 2021)

Hi.
I have 5 siblings, all aged 50 plus. Relationships are not great and eldest sibling is quite the del boy.

Father is 84. He initiated enduring power of attorney 6 years ago with me appointed. Before he went to the solicitor to initiate this, I asked him if we could include another sibling as attorney, which he did and that's fine. This other sibling is fair and I feel safer with two of us.

Before my father initiated enduring power of attorney, my father told us all that he made a will, appointed me as executive, to divide everything except the house, which he is leaving to me.
The house is ex council, hasn't been improved in quite some years and I would guess it's worth about 60k. He said he was leaving it to me so I would have a place to come and visit when he's gone (I'm out of my home town 28 years and religiously visit and stay with him every 2 to 3 weekends). (Mother died 19 yrs ago).

There's been a lot of jealousy about this. Eldest brother has said he is going to contest the will. Estate worth about 250k. I'm the only one that knows this as dad has shared with me when he knew his memory was fading. He told me what was where. I'm glad he did otherwise I wouldn't have known.

Regarding the EPOA, my father has been seen by a GP, deemed non compis mentis and he has been served with the papers. The notified parties (2 siblings) will get their papers in the coming days. I understand they will not object.

There has been a lot of drama over the years - WhatsApps, emails and so on about e.g. eldest brother coming over drinking with my father and getting him into a state that he wouldn't ordinarily get in to. My eldest brother shares the same name as my father, on paper. During Covid, when I couldn't come to visit, our sister just about mentioned, last minute,  that a) eldest brother decided to collect pension for dad, but wasn't transparent about it. b) seemed to get interested in dad's money affairs, as there's only a credit union book in the house. We think he may have been curious as to where dad was keeping his money ... he then reported dad's post office book stolen (I had it, was given it by dad for safe keeping). Luckily sister mentioned it and other brother able to intercept it, cancel it and sort that out.

That aside, as EPOA is in progress, I and another brother tried to take an inventory of items in the house and found that anything of value is gone. It was a big surprise. Mam's jewellery, items dad acquired from safe working (a beautiful clock, some gold medals with diamonds) etc. There wasn't a lot there in the first place, but I guess about 5k worth of items that could have been shared out nicely as momentoes.

It seems my sister acquired mam's wedding and her eternity ring. Dad has no recollection. And she didn't tell anyone that this was happening at the time. He, out of the blue one day about 18 months ago, offered me the eternity ring, but I said no, thinking to do this fairly at the appropriate time, and I was also taking into account his cognitive decline. I reckon this was on his mind as he must have recently given it to my sister.
I am pretty sure all other items have been removed by eldest brother. I think it's highly likely for various reasons. He lives across the road. Some of the items were from dad's workplace (brother has an obsession about this - known to others, but he doesn't realise it himself). Again, dad has no idea what happened the items. Personally I feel it's a form of elderly abuse to do this. I might also add, at one point this eldest brother has changed the locks on the doors. Swapped them out with his. You couldn't make it up. I rectified this. 

As I said, it's not worth a lot but there works have been some nice things to give to others as momentoes and they are all gone.

What can I do, what should I do. Should I seek advice, or just let it go. I have my memories with mam and with dad.  I've told the brother that's going to be attorney (EPOA) with me. He's very disappointed but not surprised.


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## ClubMan (19 Aug 2021)

howmuchunder said:


> What can I do, what should I do. Should I seek advice, or just let it go.


About what specifically?
There's an awful lot in your post so it's not really clear what you're referring to.

Perhaps this is relevant, but obviously reporting any alleged thefts or financial abuse will almost certainly lead to even more animosity and conflict in the family and - arguably more importantly - might cause stress for your father.


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## GoldWings (19 Aug 2021)

What can should I do about the removal of the items from the house, without the disclosure to others.

What are my options. 
Do nothing
Do something now 
Do something before the will is read
Do something after the will is read

Anyone any experience or advice to give, it's welcomed


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## ClubMan (19 Aug 2021)

I would consider:

Asking the siblings if they took property belonging to your father and to return it if they did
Consider reporting any alleged thefts as per the link that I posted
As POA you presumably want to (and have a responsibility to!) protect your father and his assets but dealing with this while avoiding conflict that might impinge on your father in his vulnerable state could be difficult.


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## Thirsty (19 Aug 2021)

Focus on what is important right now and thats your Dad, his health, safety and welfare are your no. 1 responsibility. The rest is just stuff.

Your father's will is not relevant at this time; he is still alive (thankfully).

Is your Dad still living at home or has he moved to residential care?


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## NoRegretsCoyote (19 Aug 2021)

ClubMan said:


> Consider reporting any alleged thefts as per the link that I posted


There is not a hope of a positive outcome from this. You probably don't have details, photos, or receipts of the items. Whichever sibling has the items will just claim that they were gifted them by your father. Guards will have zero interest in getting involved in a family dispute like this. Focus on looking after your father and try to forget the missing items.


Your brother will inherit about €40k=~(€250k-€60k)/5. Even if he contests the will and is successful it will only make him €12k=€60k/5 which will hardly cover legal fees. So he is probably bluffing here. Cross that bridge when you come to it. No one can steal a house.


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## ClubMan (19 Aug 2021)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> No one can steal a house.


They can - and seemingly have - changed the locks though.
And possibly pocketed the pension (although that's not clear).


Thirsty said:


> Focus on what is important right now and thats your Dad, his health, safety and welfare are your no. 1 responsibility. The rest is just stuff.


Financial abuse of an elder is not a trivial matter that can simply be ignored - especially by somebody holding POA.
It's not "just stuff".


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## elcato (19 Aug 2021)

Prevention is the best cure imo. Take anything that you feel may be of worth to the family out of the house now and store somewhere. To be fair, this is not uncommon in families. I think you should just accept that some siblings want stuff from the house for all sorts of different reasons. It's very little apart from nostalgia in the greater scheme of things. You need to make sure that you father's pension is not being touched but that may not be an issue here.


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## GoldWings (19 Aug 2021)

Thank you for the comments. I'm torn. Dad is number 1 priority for sure. He's still at home per his wishes and I'm setting up carers to call on him and ensure he's ok. 

I've no evidence at all, apart from the items are gone, and that would be the problem with reporting items. 

It's very sad, I know it happens and worse, but it's terrible it's going this way. Mam wouldn't have wanted this and dad either - his short term memory is bad.

Yes I'll secure everything else surely, especially with the EPOA in progress at the moment I'll be able to do that. 

I think it's probably best to leave it, but it's hard to swallow.


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## GoldWings (19 Aug 2021)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> There is not a hope of a positive outcome from this. You probably don't have details, photos, or receipts of the items. Whichever sibling has the items will just claim that they were gifted them by your father. Guards will have zero interest in getting involved in a family dispute like this. Focus on looking after your father and try to forget the missing items.
> 
> 
> Your brother will inherit about €40k=~(€250k-€60k)/5. Even if he contests the will and is successful it will only make him €12k=€60k/5 which will hardly cover legal fees. So he is probably bluffing here. Cross that bridge when you come to it. No one can steal a house.


 This eldest brother feels that the house should be his solely. .. I don't know how all this would play out. Would the other 'children' need of us need to get a solicitor between us or I guess it depends what element of the will he has a dispute with (I haven't seen it - must actually check it is there, other items were taken from the press where my dad said it was...) 
I also don't know what the costs could possibly be.  He hasn't been excluded from the will - I think he feels entitled (for no apparent reason) to the house.


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## ClubMan (19 Aug 2021)

Well the will is of academic interest as long as your father is alive so no point in worrying about that right now in my opinion.
You need to focus on keeping your father and his possessions safe right now and stop others taking stuff or maybe trying to move into the house in order to assert some sort of rights over and above those of the other siblings or what the will says.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (19 Aug 2021)

howmuchunder said:


> He hasn't been excluded from the will


As far as I know he would have to demonstrate that he had not been adequately provided for:



> If you (the child) have not been adequately provided for​If a child (either minor or adult) believes they have not been adequately provided for in their parent’s will, they can make an application to the court. The court will decide if the parent has "failed in his moral duty to make proper provision for the child in accordance with his means".
> 
> Each case is decided on its merits and the court looks at the situation from the point of view of a "prudent and just" parent. Anyone considering challenging a will on these grounds should get legal opinion before applying to the court.



I don't know how courts treat this in general but as it stands he would get 16% of the estate and a completely equal division would be 20%.


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## Peanuts (19 Aug 2021)

howmuchunder said:


> What can should I do about the removal of the items from the house, without the disclosure to others.
> 
> What are my options.
> Do nothing
> ...


Is there a possibility that he or other siblings will accuse you of stealing the items in question?


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## Thirsty (19 Aug 2021)

ClubMan said:


> Financial abuse of an elder is not a trivial matter that can simply be ignored - especially by somebody holding POA.
> It's not "just stuff".


The pension issue was resolved; the registration of EPOA will ensure that the financial abuse by a non-authorised person can't happen.

Missing household items might be upsetting to the OP; but at the end of the day it is just stuff.

What is important now is making the best of the time that is left.


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## Thirsty (19 Aug 2021)

howmuchunder said:


> This eldest brother feels that the house should be his solely.


It doesn't matter tuppence what he "feels".  

Don't let yourself get sucked into his story; totally irrelevant right now.


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## ClubMan (19 Aug 2021)

Thirsty said:


> The pension issue was resolved


Was it?
It's not really clear that it was.


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## Thirsty (19 Aug 2021)

ClubMan said:


> Was it?
> It's not really clear that it was.


The OPs questions are in relation to items being removed from the house not the pension issue which they say was prevented by another sibling.


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## ClubMan (19 Aug 2021)

Thirsty said:


> The OPs questions are in relation to items being removed from the house not the pension issue which they say was prevented by another sibling.


They don't say that.
They say that the report of the missing post office book was cancelled.
The status of the pension is not clear from the original post.


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## Thirsty (19 Aug 2021)

ClubMan said:


> They don't say that.
> They say that the report of the missing post office book was cancelled.
> The status of the pension is not clear from the original post.


This is the OPs question


howmuchunder said:


> What can should I do about the removal of the items from the house,


 In any event, I'm sure the OP can update if they have other questions.


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## ClubMan (19 Aug 2021)

Yes, and there's nothing to say that removal of stuff like the pension and post office book etc. is no longer a concern.


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## GoldWings (20 Aug 2021)

Hi again, thanks for the inciteful questions.

Yes it is/was a concern that I may be accused of taking the items. I have clarified with 2 brothers, (1 is the other attorney) the items that are missing. The other interesting point, is that I can recall my dad saying, the time he spoke to me about the will, that apart from the house, all other items to be divided equally, including money. So I think that may be interesting at a later point - maybe.

Regarding the pension - when this came to light (eldest brother collecting pension due to covid), thankfully another brother and the sister stepped in and took this over. They had been bringing him for years! Just with covid, the eldest brother out of the blue decided to sign the form and put himself down as the person to collect it.

The incident about the post office book was intercepted, cancelled and a new one was issued and I have it for safe keeping now. I will certainly gather everything together and put in safe keeping as soon as I am legally entitled to. That is my responsibility under EPOA.  There's another incident. Dad in early 2020, had been saying to sister to brother, that eldest brother was bringing him (dad) to the doctor for an appointment. Thankfully dad was able to keep mentioning it to them in conversation and to resist it, even though he didn't know what it was for. 'I'm not signing any form and not going to GP'. So when I was informed, I called the doctor to explain briefly the situation, that all decisions about dad should be communicated (we can all use email, texts!) and ask if there was an appointment made and who made it and for what. The doctor said he was not due any blood tests, but eldest brother told reception it was to bring dad for a blood test. Doctor told me then that the eldest brother did attend the appointment without dad. It turns out that eldest brother was attempting to (without consulting any sibling) become dad's carer!! This was around the same time as the post office book incident. It's the same GP that signed off on dad being compis mentis 2015 so would be aware of EPOA being initiated. I am not sure if this would have gone through (eldest brother being carer).

EPOA papers have been sent by registered post to the notified parties yesterday.

We are of course, concerned that eldest brother will attempt to move into the house for some reason or other (he lives minute walk from dad. He seems to work on rotation in different places in the world and this has been in place for 6 years that I can remember - he would be gone for weeks at at time, but it is still a concern he will attempt to move in... ) I have a few slots of care (free HSE) in place each day at the moment. And I intend to put in another mid day and evening slot (privately paid) as well as it can be lonely for dad and to ensure he is ok.

Eldest brother feels that he is entitled to the house as during the 70s 80s 90s he would have done bits and pieces around the house. He painted it also about 10 years ago. Dad pays him for all the work - but again, I have no proof apart from dad telling us that he pays (he gives anyone that does some work/messages etc a few quid) him. 

With all the above going on (it's heart breaking) and once EPOA in place, do you think I should seek advice to see if there is anything I can put in place to ensure dad is safe and brother cannot move in? (I will secure his finances any anything else that I can).


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## GoldWings (22 Aug 2021)

I've just been to visit dad's again and now see that the will is missing


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## ClubMan (22 Aug 2021)

howmuchunder said:


> Hi again, thanks for the inciteful questions.


I didn't think that they were that bad myself...


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## ClubMan (22 Aug 2021)

howmuchunder said:


> I've just been to visit dad's again and now see that the will is missing


Does that matter?
Surely the "master" copy is lodged with the solicitor?


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## GoldWings (22 Aug 2021)

ClubMan said:


> I didn't think that they were that bad myself...


Oops insightful


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## GoldWings (22 Aug 2021)

ClubMan said:


> Does that matter?
> Surely the "master" copy is lodged with the solicitor?


I seem to recall the solicitor saying she had a copy.
The initial solicitor dad made will with has retried and new solicitor is in the practice.
I had mentioned to her during EPOA conversations that I had been told about a will and that I was executor, but I didn't read the will. I was aware of its location as dad said where it was. I seem to recall she said she has a copy. 

Would this copy be valid?


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## Thirsty (22 Aug 2021)

It's most likely that the will your Solicitor holds is the original; but ask and put your mind at rest.

And pack up any other paperwork & bring it home.


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## GoldWings (22 Aug 2021)

Thanks and if the solicitor only has a copy for whatever reason, where do I stand? Anyone any experience?


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## ClubMan (22 Aug 2021)

howmuchunder said:


> Thanks and if the solicitor only has a copy for whatever reason, where do I stand? Anyone any experience?


You have power of attorney - ask the solicitor and inform them of any concerns that you have?


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## Thirsty (22 Aug 2021)

howmuchunder said:


> Thanks and if the solicitor only has a copy for whatever reason, where do I stand? Anyone any experience?


IANAL

I would be almost certain that its the original. If for whatever reason, your parent asked to have the original, they will have a paper trail showing that.

Check with solicitor tomorrow; don't borrow worries


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## GoldWings (23 Aug 2021)

ClubMan said:


> You have power of attorney - ask the solicitor and inform them of any concerns that you have?


 
I don't, not yet. The notified parties have been notified and there's 4.3 weeks left before registration. 
I have certain reservations about approaching the solicitor. It's a feeling I have from dealing with them. But I'm going to get independent advice from 'my' solicitor and see the right way to handle this. 
It's terrible and so stressful.


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## ArthurMcB (23 Aug 2021)

howmuchunder said:


> I can recall my dad saying, the time he spoke to me about the will, that apart from the house, all other items to be divided equally, including money.


Sorry if iv missed it from the above posts but what then is your dad saying will happen the house if money etc is being divided equally?


howmuchunder said:


> during the 70s 80s 90s he would have done bits and pieces around the house. He painted it also about 10 years ago.


Other than the paint job what specifically did your brother do to house during those 3 decades?



howmuchunder said:


> It turns out that eldest brother was attempting to (without consulting any sibling) become dad's carer!!


I agree thay all siblings should be consulted if one is proposing to be a carer. But to look at this another way - your brother wanted to be your dads carer and care for him - what is so wrong with this?



howmuchunder said:


> is anything I can put in place to ensure dad is safe and brother cannot move in?


Is prospect of your brother moving in with your dad really putting your dads safety at risk? Have you asked your dad if he is ok with his son moving in?



howmuchunder said:


> He seems to work on rotation in different places in the world


Out of curiosity, what type of work does your brother do?


Other than having done some work on the house and possibly looking after your dad and helping him every so often and living across the road - is there any other reasons why your brother might feel like he is, as you put it "entitled", to the house?

I appreciate that your dad is not in great health but is it possible to ask him and get clarity on his wishes for the house, ideally in the presence of 1 or more other siblings?


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## Thirsty (23 Aug 2021)

howmuchunder said:


> I don't, not yet. The notified parties have been notified and there's 4.3 weeks left before registration.
> I have certain reservations about approaching the solicitor. It's a feeling I have from dealing with them. But I'm going to get independent advice from 'my' solicitor and see the right way to handle this.
> It's terrible and so stressful.


Take things one step at a time; make a list of what you need to do, get help from your other siblings. 

You are doing the best you can; your Dad needs you now & this is your chance to say thank you in a practical way for all that he did for you and the family when you were growing up.

Don't let yourself get sucked into the drama from other folks & look after yourself as well.


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## ClubMan (23 Aug 2021)

howmuchunder said:


> I don't, not yet.


Sorry, my mistake.
I overlooked that the EPOA is only being put in place right now.


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## GoldWings (24 Aug 2021)

ArthurMcB said:


> I agree thay all siblings should be consulted if one is proposing to be a carer. But to look at this another way - your brother wanted to be your dads carer and care for him - what is so wrong with this?


Hi Arthur McB.
I won't go into it here, but basically my father does not trust this brother, and rightly so.


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## DeeKie (24 Aug 2021)

This happened to a friend of mine. She was legally responsible for looking after her aunt. She contacted everyone (suspected and not suspected) concerned, said that she legally had no choice but to report the matter to the Gardai if the items were not returned or their value. She said that she had some information about who took the goods (she did not but had a very strong suspicion). She gave two weeks grace to return the goods or value. It worked.


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## GoldWings (24 Aug 2021)

DeeKie said:


> This happened to a friend of mine. She was legally responsible for looking after her aunt. She contacted everyone (suspected and not suspected) concerned, said that she legally had no choice but to report the matter to the Gardai if the items were not returned or their value. She said that she had some information about who took the goods (she did not but had a very strong suspicion). She gave two weeks grace to return the goods or value. It worked.



My issue is that I may get back (if I get a response) that they were gifted. 

I checked yesterday and the will is now gone. The original. So I have booked time with an independent solicitor to ask for advice on the next steps.


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## DeeKie (25 Aug 2021)

GoldWings said:


> My issue is that I may get back (if I get a response) that they were gifted.
> 
> I checked yesterday and the will is now gone. The original. So I have booked time with an independent solicitor to ask for advice on the next steps.


Yes. But you won’t know until you ask. You have to ask. You don’t need a solicitor to tell you that.


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## GoldWings (25 Aug 2021)

DeeKie said:


> Yes. But you won’t know until you ask. You have to ask. You don’t need a solicitor to tell you that.



And what if the person that took the will says that dad revoked the will in their presence? That dad tore it up in front of me? Dad didn't, he would have said. But what if this happens? Anything is possible given someone would go so low as to take someone's will


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## Peanuts20 (25 Aug 2021)

GoldWings said:


> And what if the person that took the will says that dad revoked the will in their presence? That dad tore it up in front of me? Dad didn't, he would have said. But what if this happens? Anything is possible given someone would go so low as to take someone's will



You then may need to pursue a case of Undue Influence against the family member in question.


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## elcato (25 Aug 2021)

GoldWings said:


> And what if the person that took the will says that dad revoked the will in their presence? That dad tore it up in front of me?


but that has not been clarified, right ?


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## SparkRite (25 Aug 2021)

To the OP @GoldWings , try and stop worrying about the ' What Ifs ' and deal with, what *is* and what *has* happened.


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## GoldWings (25 Aug 2021)

SparkRite said:


> To the OP @GoldWings , try and stop worrying about the ' What Ifs ' and deal with, what *is* and what *has* happened.



Thanks.
I guess the reason I came on here was to see if there was any previous experience that would be in some way relatable.
I'm just trying to sound out the possibilities. That's my style. But yes you're right. I'll be very logical and factual when I ask the solicitor for advice.


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