# Euphony charging for elive



## potnoodler (13 Nov 2004)

beware folks the free lunch with euphony is over im afraid, my most recent bill states they have begun to charge from the 1st Nov.
all local and national numbers to ISPs meaning elive. Fun while lasted but time for a change again


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## ninsaga (13 Nov 2004)

Wow. this means that you have been charged in Nov for calls in Sept right? Would you mind confirming that as I have not received my Sept bill as yet.

Also, what is the dial up number that you have been using - is is a local/national number or an 1850 type number?

ninsaga


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## potnoodler (13 Nov 2004)

No it  was they will just begin to charge as of 1/11 at local rates, it appears in small print in the first page of the bill I'm surprised I spotted only I scrutinize all bills esp.the phone bills.
That is the reason for the post and I know lots of people will miss it and euphony are very slow in the billing process.
anyhow I was just using the local access number an 01 as opposed to an 1891


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## ninsaga (13 Nov 2004)

Thanks for posting this potnoodler. I'll check that out now when I get the bill. This will make a dramatic diff to my bill so it may be time to move on if that's the case. I'll wait until I get my bil though & ask them if they have an alternative.

Could be that they are about to launch their own Internet package. Up until now they are reliant on Elivefree.

cheers,
ninsaga


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## Dr Moriarty (15 Nov 2004)

*More bad news for Euphony customers...*

Yeah, I saw that note on my last bill (first bill for a full month), rang them up & they said any call to an ISP will indeed be charged from Nov. 1st onwards, whether it's a "real" local number or a non-geographic 189*-type...

...bang goes free dial-up access as per my earlier posts on this topic!  

But there's worse. I looked again at my bill, and in particular at the charges for other calls. You might remember me previously singing the virtues of [broken link removed] and their prefixes for calling international and mobile nos..? (can't find the post right now, but I'll come back & edit if I turn it up) Originally, they let you call Irish mobiles for 4c/8c a minute by dialling an 0818-prefix no. — Eircon's national rate 'non-geographic' no. — but then that was very quickly changed to 1520-932601, which is one of their lower-charged "premium" nos. — 15c/minute (incl. VAT), any time night or day. OK, I thought — not as great as 4c/8c a minute, but still better then the rest, especially for daytime calls...

Then I got my last Euphony bill, and a quick scan through the calls to that prefix revealed that they were being charged at significantly _more_ than that... :eek  

Tried ringing Euphony several times, stayed on hold for 20/25 mins at a time (well, at least the 01- call is free!). No luck.

Rang Eircom and got them (slowly, and painfully) to confirm 100% that calls to that 1520- nos. are charged by them at 12.1c/minute ex-VAT, i.e. 15c/minute incl. VAT.

Tried Euphony again, and finally got through. Got the person on the end of the line to go into my account and directed her by date and time to a couple of 1-minute calls to that number that I'd been charged 23c for (plus one aborted call of _3 seconds'_ duration for which I paid 5c!) Response was that "once your calls are routed through Euphony, you're charged for "other calls" (i.e. anything but ordinary local & national calls) at _their_ rates, not Eircom's...". And their rate for calls to 1520- nos. is 19.1c/minute ex-VAT — i.e. 23.1c/minute incl. VAT.

So — I pointed out that this was
(a) a surcharge of *90.5%* over the Eircom rate
(b) not mentioned _anywhere_ in their rate card or T&C
(c) a completely "hidden" mark-up on their part — especially since, when you dial that no., you hear a (Telestunt) voice prompt announcing that "calls to this number will be charged at 15c/minute including VAT...).
(d) wondered whether they applied similar "invisible" 90% mark-ups to any other 'non-geographic' nos. 1850? 1890?

At this, the young girl got very kerfuffled altogether and said she'd have to get a supervisor to call me back. I didn't want to get thick with her personally, so I reverted to the calm, soothing, amicable tone that is natural to me   , gave her the details again and said I'd look forward to hearing from her supervisor at his/her earliest convenience. Gave her my work number, too, because when telcom companies ring our house my wife usually screams abuse at them and bangs the 'phone down...!  

Still waiting — but if I don't hear back from them within the week, I feel a strongly-worded formal written complaint coming on (copied of course to Comreg/ASAI, the local press, "Uncle" Joe Duffy, etc. etc.)...

...I'll keep you all posted!

Dr. M.

_[Edit: Just found the 'let-out' clause on their rate card:

"This rate card is for guidance only and does not form part of any contract.
Tariffs for services supplied from outside Euphony may
change at short notice. This may result in the prices
charged differing from the operators (sic) advertised rates."

I'm still going to kick up a stink. And I think I'll send hard copy f.a.o. their [broken link removed] C.E. (looks like a right smarmy 'M.O'L II' sonofabitch to me...

Oh dear. There I go with the 'envy' thing again...!]_


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## ninsaga (15 Nov 2004)

*Re: More bad news for Euphony customers...*

Got the Pm as well Dr M - thanks.

OK so I yet to recieve the bill. Bit here is where the real problem is & I do intend to kick up some major crap about this.

The selling point is that the 1st hour of All Local & All National calls are for free - unlimited minutes per month.

It just so happens that teh eLivefree numbers are local & national. Euphony can certainly change their policies to bill you for these numbers - but not without notice. It is November - I have not received my Oct bill yet (normally arrives mid the following month).

So Dr M, just to be clear - which bill did you get which notified you of the change in policy - was it your October bill that yous obly received in the last few days?

ninsaga


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## zag (15 Nov 2004)

*Re: More bad news for Euphony customers...*

Does indeed seem a bit odd.

How can they get away with 'changing rates at short notice' ?  Or indeed no notice ?  Are they not regulated by comreg ?  Do they not have to publish ads in the national press, just like Eircom ?  Do they not have to have their rates approved for exactly this reason - to stop operators pulling a fast one on unsuspecting customers ?

I accept that any carrier must be allowed seek a change in rate on occasion, but I don't see how they can be allowed change rates under the terms they outline on their rate card - at that rate there would be spot pricing going on.  How much for a call to Canada today ?  Are local calls free this week or not ?  One rate for calling Cork at 13:45 another for calling at 13:52 ?

Sounds very bad indeed.

z


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## Dr Moriarty (15 Nov 2004)

*Re: More bad news for Euphony customers...*



> Dr M, just to be clear - which bill did you get..?



@ninsaga : Yup, October bill, dated 01/10/2004 but dropped through the letterbox last Friday. The bill was debited to my credit card account on the 4th...

@zag : my thoughts zigackly!

At the risk of boring the pants off yez all... D  ) — here's what I've just emailed to them (and will send by hard copy Monday a.m.)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dear Sir/Madam,

I recently received - after I'd already paid it - my second bill (my first one for a full month) since moving to Euphony's residential TalkNow package, and was rather alarmed to see calls to a 1520 "premium" Eircom number being charged to me at fully 90.5% over the advertised Eircom rate of 12.1c/minute ex-VAT (or 15c/minute incl. VAT).

After a few days (!) of trying to get through to your customer service no., I finally spoke to one of your reps in the UK, who divulged that you charge calls to these numbers at 19.1c/minute, or 23.1c/minute incl. VAT. I protested that this was not indicated anywhere in your rate card or T&C, and that it seemed to me to constitute a very dubious "stealth" surcharge indeed, and was referred to the small print of your rate card:

"This rate card is for guidance only and does not form part of any contract.
Tariffs for services supplied from outside Euphony may
change at short notice. This may result in the prices
charged differing from the operators _[sic]_ advertised rates."

In the interests of my further 'guidance', and as part of our (legal) contract, may I hereby request written confirmation from you as to the precise scope and extent of your surcharges on calls to other 'non-geographic' numbers? What's your mark-up on 1850- or 1890- numbers? Or calls to the emergency services, etc.?

I'll look forward to receiving your response.

Yours sincerely,
[etc.]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

F*** 'em all, I say...
I'll give them a week to respond in writing, then e-mail them a link to this thread and tell them that I've CC'd it all to Comreg, A.S.A.I. _et al_.
Jaysus, I might even ring Joe Duffy..!


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## ninsaga (15 Nov 2004)

*Re: More bad news for Euphony customers...*

Dr M - it even seems strange to me that you have paid the bill already.

I pay through DD & here is the normal flow of events.....

- For all calls in Sept - I will get my bill around mid Oct. The Date & Tax point on the top of the top of the bill will state 1/10/04- I will be advised that the DD will occur on or about 1/11. Maybe thes rules don't apply when you pay by CC for some reason. 

Were the dates on the call you made Sept or October calls? If your bill was dated 1/10 then these are most likely Sept calls which would also explain why the CC transaction occured on 1/11.

(Damn I can't locate my Sept bill anyway!)

The biggest case that can be put forward again is that they advertise free local & free national - which has always included elive free nos!
ninsaga


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## Dr Moriarty (15 Nov 2004)

*Re: More bad news for Euphony customers...*



> Were the dates on the call you made Sept or October calls? If your bill was dated 1/10 then these are most likely Sept calls which would also explain why the CC transaction occured on 1/11.



Well, the calls were all made in September, and the bill is headed "date and tax point 01/*10*/04", but it was delivered on 05/*11*/04, and the CC a/c had already been debited on 03/11. It says in the payment methods that "there will be a minimum of 14 days between our billing date and the actual charge to your credit card" — i.e. they back-date the bill...? (which comes in a UK pre-paid envelope, so there's no postmark stamp on it!)

I'm not really pushed about the dates, it's the sneaky overcharging I object to. Even the earlier calls to 0818 numbers are similarly marked up by about 80%~90%...


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## Dr Moriarty (16 Nov 2004)

*Update...*

From them, today by email...

_Dear Mr ******

Thank you for your recent email regarding your Euphony telephone account.
Letter has been posted to you today detailing rates to non geographic
numbers

Kind regards

N***** L****
Service & Product Support_

From me, in reply...

_Many thanks, N*****.

At your convenience, could I ask you also to confirm for me what the position is regarding "geographic" dial-up internet access (i.e. via an 01- or 061- number such as those provided by elivefree.net, among several others? My last bill had a note on the front of it indicating that "any local or national calls to ISP numbers will be charged for from 1st November 2004", but there is no mention of nor provision for this in the revised terms & conditions appended to my bill, nor is any indication given as to what rate these calls will be charged at... (is it included in the 'non-geographic' rates detailed in the letter now on its way to me?)

It's one thing to charge for calls to non-geographic numbers; it was made clear to me when I signed up for your TalkNow product that these calls would be charged 'separately' — although I was certainly given no idea of the undisclosed 90% mark-up applied on top of the providers' advertised rates! But it seems to me an entirely different matter to have your application forms and rate cards state that for my monthly fee I can have 'unlimited FREE local and national calls under 1 hour's duration', and then tell me retrospectively in a 'Customer news' note that you're now charging me — at rates undisclosed — for calls to 01-XXXXXXX or 061-YYYYYY...

This was a major selling point of your TalkNow product, from the perspective of those of your consultants with whom I was in contact prior to signing up for your service. Now it appears that the goalposts are to shift yet again, but where to...?

Incidentally, and as a non-specialist, may I venture that a lot of the stuff in your revised terms & conditions — call charges 'may be varied by us from time to time with or without notice [etc.]' (4.3) — seems to me to be on pretty shaky legal ground, from a Comreg/ASAI/Trade Descriptions Act point of view. Maybe I'm wrong about this.

I'll look forward to hearing further from you on this matter and, in the meantime, am grateful to you for your attention thus far. I hope I can continue to remain a customer of Euphony Communications (Ireland) Ltd.

Best wishes,

Dr Moriarty_


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## ninsaga (16 Nov 2004)

*Re: Update...*

Nice one Dr M...the eyes of the world are watching this.....

I still do not have the latest bill so I cannot take up arms as yet!

ninsaga


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## ClubMan (16 Nov 2004)

*Re: Update...*

This reminds me of the time that _eircom_ unilaterally and without any announcement that I noticed decided that 1890 numbers no longer qualified for their _Circle of Friends_ 10% discount even if they were registered. When I noticed that I was no longer getting any discount on my dial-up ISP calls I wrote to _eircom_ asking them for an explanation. Not for the first time in such circumstances they simply ignored my letter. :\


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## Dr Moriarty (16 Nov 2004)

*Re: Update...*



> the eyes of the world are watching this.....



Ah, I think that might be overstating it a tad, ninsaga...  

Apparently 78% of us haven't even bothered switching from Eircon yet!

Still an' all, this kind of thing brings out the [broken link removed] in me...  

Dr. M.


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## ClubMan (16 Nov 2004)

*Re: Update...*

*Apparently 78% of us haven't even bothered switching from Eircon yet!*

If my experience with _UTVtalk_ is anything to go by it's not surprising. Nearly two months on from signing up online and being told that it would take c. 10 working days I still haven't heard a sausage - other than email spam that they keep sending me... :\


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## Dr Moriarty (16 Nov 2004)

*Re: Update...*

Well now, in fairness I can't fault Euphony's "CustServ" on the promptness of their replies — this just in :

_Dear Mr ******

Thank you for your recent email. As from the 1st November all calls to ISP numbers will be charged for. If you are using a local/national dial up number to connect to the internet you will be charged 4c/min during peak times and 1c/min off peak/weekends. In some circumstances depending on what
dial up number your using if was possible for these calls to come under the free call entitlement on Talknow. This should not of happened as Talknow is a residential package and doesn't cover internet access. So as from 1st November these calls will be charged for at the local rate.
Charges for non geographic numbers can be charged differently depending on what number it is your calling and what provider your with. These will differ from the advertised rates. If any of these charges change or increase
we do try to notify you asap. Our consultants are aware of this so I apologise for you being misinformed

Kind regards

N***** L***
Service & Product Support_

And my own reply...

_Many thanks once again for your prompt reply, Nicola,

Two quick final points, if I may —
(a) Are those 1c/4c/min charges you refer to inclusive of   VAT? and
(b) In fairness, shouldn't your references to the charges for (residential) calls to ISP numbers as applied from 1st November read "have been charged for", not "will be charged for"? I only learned of them when my bill arrived on Friday 5th November...

I'll look forward to receiving full details of your other charges in due course.

Best wishes,

Dr Moriarty_

I'll post the details of the (sur)charges for non-geographic numbers as soon as I get them...


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## zag (16 Nov 2004)

*Re: Update...*

Their logic still doesn't hold true.

If their use of 'residential' means that only calls *to* residences (i.e. non-business listings) are covered then surely they would be charging for a lot more calls.

If their use of 'residential' means that only calls *from* residences (like your house) are covered then that doesn't inherently rule out calls to ISPs.

I think they're making it up as they go along.

As above, I think carriers should obviously be allowed to introduce charges where necessary, but I don't think this particular example is valid, and I don't think their notice period was sufficient.

z


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## ClubMan (16 Nov 2004)

*Re: Update...*

Oops! In relation to _UTVtalk_ see


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## Dr Moriarty (17 Nov 2004)

*I think they're making it up as they go along.*

I think you're dead right there, zag...!

I'm going to wait for that letter I was promised (with details of all their rates to non-geographic numbers), then take it further. Anyone care to confirm or contradict my 'non-specialist' hunch about the lawfulness or otherwise of those T&C, or the legality of announcing different terms of use in a "Customer news" note...?

Dr. M.


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## ninsaga (18 Nov 2004)

*Re: I think they're making it up as they go along.*

OK - so as mentioned already the honeymoon period is over with Euphony...so Dr M, what would you recommend now instead?

ninsaga


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## Dr Moriarty (18 Nov 2004)

*Re: I think they're making it up as they go along.*

ninsaga, depending on what's in that letter, I personally might stay with them for the time being. My family make a helluva lot of daytime local calls, and €9.99/month incl VAT is still a lot less than my average call charges with Chorus, who I left for them. _*** 'though if you make most of your calls after 6 or on weekends, Eircom or UTVtalk's all-in packages are probably the better option..._

If Euphony _don't_ mark up the charge to 1890 numbers, then Telestunt remains the obvious choice for international calls.

As for calls to mobiles (grrrrrr.....:mad ) — I've obviously now unblocked the 'phone to them and won't be using that 1520 prefix any more — 23c a minute, even if you don't get through?! :eek  — but I suppose Euphony's basic charges of 23c/17.5c/13.5c are no worse than Eircom's rates. My lot are all on Meteor leisuretime, so I've made the point to them that after 6pm it's actually cheaper for them to call mobiles from their own mobiles (13c) than from the landline...

I'll wait for another full month's bill to come before deciding whether it's worth buying pre-paid mobile minutes from Euphony : 100 'anytime' minutes for €17, 200 for €31, etc. Problem with that option is that unused minutes don't roll over — you use them or lose them. I'd _like_ to think we could keep the mobile calls to under 100 mins/month (that's an average of 3 mins 20 secs per day). :rolleyes 

Anyway, I reckon that come February there'll probably be a whole new array of options on the market...


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## cullenswood (18 Nov 2004)

*Re: I think they're making it up as they go along.*

Why what's happening in February?


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## Dr Moriarty (19 Nov 2004)

*Re: I think they're making it up as they go along.*

Deadline for local loop unbundling — see www.comreg.ie:

_Friday, November 05, 2004 
ComReg has issued a direction that sets the price for full Local Loop Unbundling at €14.65 per month._

Full text here (.pdf)


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## Dr Moriarty (2 Dec 2004)

*Re: I think they're making it up as they go along.*

Update no. 2  ...courtesy of FatherD.

Dr. M.


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