# HELP - Home after Separation



## TX1 (16 Nov 2011)

Hope someone can help. Me and my partner bought an apartment and were engaged shortly afterwards. We broke up almost 2 years ago and initially i left and moved back in with  parents. We were together 13 years and as she is the higher earner she asked if should could stay in the home. She has just had a child with her new partner and moved into his home. She has now rented out our apartment and i am we are paying 200 per month to cover any shortfall. I have no access to the account i am paying my share into. No idea how much the rent is. No idea what are mortgage currently is (tracker). No access to the apartment. I am also under the impression she has removed our contents which i joint own. Sofa (3000), TV (5000) etc. I also have never recieved back the engagement ring which i am still paying for as it was 5,000. I do not care about contents etc but recently my parents have decided to relocate to the west of ireland and i will be effectively homeless. I would like to move into my apartment but have been told by her she wont agree. Do i have rights and if i did would i have to pay mortgage on my own as she was the higher earner while we were together and bought the property. Any help/advce aprreciated.


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## ClubMan (16 Nov 2011)

Just to clarify - it seems as if you were engaged but never married in which case there is no (legal) separation issue involved here.

Are you a beneficial (part) owner of the property? Is your name on the deeds and/or mortgage for the property?

Would mediation to resolve the issues be an option here? 

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/e...ion_and_divorce/family_mediation_service.html

The engagement ring was presumably a gift so unless she wants to give it back I'm not sure that you have any rights there....


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## TX1 (16 Nov 2011)

Just to clarify - it seems as if you were engaged but never married in which case there is no (legal) separation issue involved here.


_Under __Section 44 of the Family Law (Divorce) Act 1996__ disputes about property between a couple whose engagement has ended are treated in the same way as disputes between a married couple who are separating or divorcing. This only applies to property in which either or both of them had a beneficial interest while they were engaged. It does not apply to property acquired after the engagement ended. _

Also, both our names are on the property as we were together 8 years when we bought it.

*The engagement ring was presumably a gift so unless she wants to give it back I'm not sure that you have any rights there.... *

*Gifts between an engaged couple*

_When two people who are engaged give gifts (including an engagement ring) to each other, there is a presumption that they are given on the condition that the gifts will be returned (if requested to), should the engagement end. If one of the engaged couple dies, however, it is presumed the gifts the deceased gave were given without any conditions. So, the surviving fiancé(e) can keep the gifts. It is possible to contest either of these presumptions in court if there is evidence to the contrary._
_These presumptions only apply to gifts given during the engagement and does not apply to gifts given before or after the engagement._

At at my wits end as i have no key, no access to the accounts for the property. The most i have been able to figure out is that i was paying 100 per month as well as her to cover any shortfall in mortgage. However, i have since learned it is rented for 750 but mortgage is 722 and due to drop to 700 next week as it is a tracker. Also i want to live in it if possible as i am due to be homeless soon and do i have a right to move back in????


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## ClubMan (16 Nov 2011)

TX1 said:


> Just to clarify - it seems as if you were engaged but never married in which case there is no (legal) separation issue involved here.
> 
> 
> _Under __Section 44 of the Family Law (Divorce) Act 1996__ disputes about property between a couple whose engagement has ended are treated in the same way as disputes between a married couple who are separating or divorcing. This only applies to property in which either or both of them had a beneficial interest while they were engaged. It does not apply to property acquired after the engagement ended. _


Thanks - wasn't aware of that but I suppose it makes sense given that the law has been catching up in recent years with the fact that not all relationships end up with marriage/civil partnership. On the other hand it seems a little odd given that engagement is not exactly an official publicly recorded status?


> *Gifts between an engaged couple*
> 
> _When two people who are engaged give gifts (including an engagement ring) to each other, there is a presumption that they are given on the condition that the gifts will be returned (if requested to), should the engagement end. If one of the engaged couple dies, however, it is presumed the gifts the deceased gave were given without any conditions. So, the surviving fiancé(e) can keep the gifts. It is possible to contest either of these presumptions in court if there is evidence to the contrary._
> _These presumptions only apply to gifts given during the engagement and does not apply to gifts given before or after the engagement._


Where does that come from?

If direct negotiation or mediation are not options then you probably need to engage a solicitor to start looking into the relevant issues...


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## TX1 (16 Nov 2011)

Both from the website you posted above. Thanks a mill clubman. The only thing i want to clear up i guess is if it is possible for me to occupy the premises as niether of us lives in it and both her and her new partner have a new home with their child and i am due to be homeless due to commuting issues next month unless i can move in. I have booked an appointment with FLAC so will keep you posted on the outcome


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## ClubMan (16 Nov 2011)

Duh! I suppose I should read what I post myself... 

If you cannot afford a solicitor then you may be entitled to legal aid if direct or mediated negotiations cannot solve the problems here:

www.legalaidboard.ie


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## burmo (16 Nov 2011)

Hi,

From recent reading, as far as I know legally both of you have the same right of access to the property. There is no issue getting a locksmith to open the door for you as you own the property.

It is possible to terminate rental agreements if the owner wishes to move in.


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## TX1 (16 Nov 2011)

Thx Burmo. I guess that is an option. Ideally i would try do it the right way and through a solicitor. If i were to do it that way then there would be no issue for her and her partner to do same while i am there. As the property is rented out and more than covers the mortgage payments she is reluctant for me to move in unless i pay 100%. Is this correct. I have no problem paying a larger proportion but not 100% as she is liable for the mortgage too. I want to be as fair as possible and not cause any trouble.


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## ClubMan (16 Nov 2011)

TX1 said:


> She has now rented out our apartment and i am we are paying 200 per month to cover any shortfall. I have no access to the account i am paying my share into. No idea how much the rent is. No idea what are mortgage currently is (tracker).





TX1 said:


> As the property is rented out and more than covers the mortgage payments


These two posts do not tally.


Also - is this correct or a typo?!?! 


TX1 said:


> Sofa (3000), TV (5000) etc.



And just to reiterate my earlier question - are you a beneficial part owner of the property with your name on the deeds and/or mortgage?


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## alexandra123 (16 Nov 2011)

If you wanted to live in the apartment, you should be paying the going rent for that area. If the rent covers the mortgage then you should be paying for it all. 

She should only help to pay the mortgage - if you could not rent it out or if their was a shortfall in the rent from someone renting if from you both. 

I think it is ok for you to pay the full cost if you were to live their. 

It is a different matter - in that you have been paying either 100 or 200 a month to her even though the mortgage is already been paid for by the sitting tenant.

Good luck !


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## TX1 (16 Nov 2011)

Clubman. 

The figures are correct. I was told mortgage was 850 and rent was 700. So 150 for shortfall and 50 for contingincies. I have since found out mortgage is 722 and rent is 750.

Yes i am on deeds etc.

Alexandra.

I was told i had to pay 50% as 50% of the debt was mine when i moved out. So basically i rented while she lived in it paying 100% rent on my new place and 50% off mortgage as i am on deeds etc and non payment could effect in the future. Maybe it was ill advised. Effectively i had to move back with my folks as i could not afford to do both i.e rent and pay mortgage. Does this mean i would be owed rent for the 1 and hald she lived there that i paid half of?


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## ClubMan (16 Nov 2011)

That makes no sense to me. If you were straight 50:50 owners of the property and both put up equal amounts of any money required to purchase it and of repayments to date then surely rental income and any shortfall to meet the mortgage repayments should have been split equally? So in effect you should both have been paying (750 - 722) / 2 = €14 p.m.?

How have you managed to deal with the rental income tax issues for the last couple of years? That would require you do this sort of apportioning of income/repayments/expenses etc.


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## TX1 (16 Nov 2011)

Clubman, it made no sense to me either and that is why i dug a little deeper. I have been paying 100 per month since it has been rented as i was told by her this was the shortfall and that she would pay 100 pm. After the tracker rates changed i delved a little deeper and finally asked the bank and was told the actual amount. I also asked the tenants how much they were paying and found out it was 750 not 700. Prior to it being rented out i was paying 50% while she lived in it and i lived with my folks! Basically i felt i was being taken for a ride. There was no bad blood with break up so i assumed honesty was part and parcel. I had no say in it being rented i was told it was and that i had to pay X amount etc. I have asked for keys, access to account that i was paying into (it is hers) and was told no that she was looking after it and not to worry etc.

Re: sofa etc yes the figures are correct. I was told they were in storage and they would be sold and split eventually but have since learned they are in her new place.


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## Magpie (17 Nov 2011)

you had a 5000 euro TV? Is that even possible...was it gold plated?


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## elcato (17 Nov 2011)

To be fair, the shortfall could well be more than the rent minus the mortgage. Management fees are usually 100 a month, not to mention the times when there is no tenant in or repairs, NPPR, advertisement so I think she may not be pulling any wool over your eyes there. Be aware also that you will probably have a tax liability for the two of you. You need to mediate somehow and then and use the fact that she owed going rent for the time she was living in it as a bargaining chip.


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## Mrs Vimes (17 Nov 2011)

To be honest, if she has been misleading you all this time as to how much rent and mortgage have been, as opposed to being straight up and giving you accounts, etc, I think you will need some outside help with sorting out a fair settlement.

There are mediators available, or a family law solicitor may be the way to go.


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## alexandra123 (17 Nov 2011)

I reckon you should cut your losss for the last 1.5 years and see it as a hard lesson learned and dont let it happen again in the future. 


You should just move in and pay the mortgage and dont hand over anymore money to her !


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