# garda procedure at speed trap



## theengineer (21 Jan 2009)

Does anyone know if someone who is stopped for speeding gets any paper work at the scene of the alleged offence. What is the procedure involved? A lady here was stopped and was suppose to be doing 80km p h in a 50 km zone.

She asked me, because she knows I have a law degree, however both her husband and I would be happy to see her face the music. I myself have a total dislike for speeding. I always feel sorry for the member of gardai who has to knock at the door of someone to say that a family member was killed due a road accident.

I would be delighted to find out the corect procedure if anyone knows it.


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## ney001 (21 Jan 2009)

two points  & Fine will be sent out by post in a couple of weeks - no paperwork at scene  (at least I didn't get any!)


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## theengineer (21 Jan 2009)

Thanks,


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## mercman (21 Jan 2009)

Normally they take the car details, and the driver personal details and check the licence and insurance details. If not to hand they give the mandatory 10 days to produce them. So if she was speeding she will be done !!!


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## theengineer (21 Jan 2009)

just thought of something, does the member have to produce a certificate of calibration for what ever speed detector was used?


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## theengineer (21 Jan 2009)

She might drive slower the next time!!! might learn to slow down.


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## MrMan (21 Jan 2009)

I wonder was it an appropriate speed limit for the area, it's not always cut and dried & it sounds like the usual carry on of Guards waiting in the 50km zone rather than out where the real speeding takes place.


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## ney001 (21 Jan 2009)

theengineer said:


> just thought of something, does the member have to produce a certificate of calibration for what ever speed detector was used?




theengineer........... indeed!


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## Moral Ethos (21 Jan 2009)

theengineer said:


> just thought of something, does the member have to produce a certificate of calibration for what ever speed detector was used?


Nope, in law it is assumed that the device used is calibrated correctly. It is up to you to prove it is not. An impossible task.


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## theengineer (21 Jan 2009)

That is a good point, I dont know exactly where this happened, but if it is a 50 km zone, she should drive at 50 or less, (Unless of course she was driving a govt minister)


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## theengineer (21 Jan 2009)

I myself know of many things that are often out of calabration, i wont mention airlines and their scales, etc.... I presume the gardai do have a certificate of calabration for the device! I presume this thing is tested before task starts, and on return to station.

OK it would need to be out a lot if she was detected doing 80 in a 50 zone.


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## theengineer (21 Jan 2009)

Moral Ethos said:


> Nope, in law it is assumed that the device used is calibrated correctly. It is up to you to prove it is not. An impossible task.


 

But in criminal law you are presumed innocent untill proven guilty.  If there is any doubt the accused must be left off. It is ages since I read anything about law, but points come back.


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## Padraigb (21 Jan 2009)

MrMan said:


> I wonder was it an appropriate speed limit for the area, it's not always cut and dried & it sounds like the usual carry on of Guards waiting in the 50km zone rather than out where the real speeding takes place.



So doing 80 kph in a 50 kph zone doesn't count as real speeding?


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## bond-007 (21 Jan 2009)

theengineer said:


> But in criminal law you are presumed innocent untill proven guilty.  If there is any doubt the accused must be left off. It is ages since I read anything about law, but points come back.


Unfortunately with speeding prosecutions, you must prove you innocence. The law was changed a few years ago to give the presumption of the detection device is working correctly. The accused must prove that it was not. Very hard to do if the Gardaí won't show you a calibration cert. 

It is a law that is worth challenging. I am surprised that no solicitor has challenged this law in a court.


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## Latrade (21 Jan 2009)

I'd also add that it's highly unlikely that even the least maintained and uncalibrated detector would be so off as to confuse 50 and below for 80 kph. 

It would only ever be an issue within a certain small percentage of the speed limit. I think maxium for a very dodgy detector could be out as much as 10%, but hardly more than that. 

In most cases it's a moot point.


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## gallogly (21 Jan 2009)

sounds like theengineer is looking for ideas on how to beat the speeding rap.


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## z103 (21 Jan 2009)

> I think maxium for a very dodgy detector could be out as much as 10%, but hardly more than that.


You 'think' or you know?
Why can't detectors be out by more than 10%? If it's not calibrated correctly, why can't it be out by a huge amount?


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## bond-007 (21 Jan 2009)

If they are not operated correctly they can generate huge errors. 
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-st...bjectid=21052905&siteid=115875-name_page.html


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## theengineer (21 Jan 2009)

gallogly said:


> sounds like theengineer is looking for ideas on how to beat the speeding rap.


 
Just intrested in how the whole thing works, also intresting to see what the courts are at. 


I know from my own point of view, all my test meters, etc need to be calibrated. I carry copies of the certs of calibration with me. And boy oh boy, calibrating things is a very expensive process.


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## bond-007 (21 Jan 2009)

I agree 100% with you. 

The whole speed enforcement system allows the Gardaí to trample on your constitutional rights with no comeback for the citizen.


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## theengineer (21 Jan 2009)

Latrade said:


> I'd also add that it's highly unlikely that even the least maintained and uncalibrated detector would be so off as to confuse 50 and below for 80 kph.
> 
> .


 


I tend to agree. 

It is intresting though, if these speed detectors are not calibrated, the state is going to get someone bringing this point up. 

It wont be me, my problem is i go too slow, and am proably a nuisance, just have attended too many funerals of children of friends, who died in single car crashes. Not a nice thing to do, that is why i do feel for the poor guard who has to knock on the door to deliver the bad news.


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## MrMan (21 Jan 2009)

Padraigb said:


> So doing 80 kph in a 50 kph zone doesn't count as real speeding?


 

Like my post said I wonder was the limit approriate for the area it was used in as there are many cases that I have seen where a 50km zone appeared for little reason and where a lower limit would be warranted in other cases.


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## Padraigb (21 Jan 2009)

MrMan said:


> Like my post said I wonder was the limit approriate for the area it was used in as there are many cases that I have seen where a 50km zone appeared for little reason and where a lower limit would be warranted in other cases.



No, you took a much stronger position. You said "it sounds like the usual carry on of Guards waiting in the 50km zone rather than out where the real speeding takes place. 		 		  		  		 		  		  		  		  		 			"


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## theengineer (21 Jan 2009)

MrMan said:


> Like my post said I wonder was the limit approriate for the area it was used in as there are many cases that I have seen where a 50km zone appeared for little reason and where a lower limit would be warranted in other cases.


 

yes, that seems to happen a lot through out the country. I am not sure where this happened,


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## theengineer (21 Jan 2009)

just thought of something else, anyone know does a police man, and woman need to produce id, when in this situation, or only when requested, Are there expiry dates on this id ?


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## theengineer (21 Jan 2009)

bond-007 said:


> Unfortunately with speeding prosecutions, you must prove you innocence. The law was changed a few years ago to give the presumption of the detection device is working correctly. The accused must prove that it was not.
> .


 
Anyone know when this was changed, statute number etc,


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## Marathon Man (21 Jan 2009)

Moral Ethos said:


> Nope, in law it is assumed that the device used is calibrated correctly. It is up to you to prove it is not. An impossible task.



"An impossible task"
I don't know about that.  Difficult I'll concede, but not impossible.  

There are a whole pile of questions here, even if incorrect calibration cannot be proven:  When was it calibrated?  When was it due for recalibration. Was it recalibrated within the manufacturer's recommended time period? Was it repaired?  Were original manufacturer's certified parts used? Was it recalibrated following repairs? Who calibrated it?  Were they trained?  Was the operator/garda trained?  

I've often wondered about these.  Frankly I'd be surprised if the validation trail held up.  Marathon Man - another Engineer!


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## theengineer (21 Jan 2009)

actually i forgot about the training part of it, " were they trained to use the equipment" well done marathon man, i think this was a big thing when the alchol measuring device was introduced to the stations a few years ago. I am mad with myself that i did not think of it. 

Even if it was within calibration it could have got knocked about enough to cause a problem. 

I found a pat tester once that passed lots of things, and discovered it was fauty, one of the guys left it fall, some circuit board got loose. 

Wow this speeding thing is getting intresting, i am still fot making the lady walk for a few weeks, but there are many issues involved, in what seemed to be so clear cut .


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## deadwood (21 Jan 2009)

The devices are regularly returned to the manufacturers for calibration and this is certified by them. (No, I don't know what this involves - they drop eggs out of a hot air balloon, or something)

These certs are sometimes requested in court.

Members using the device must be trained and are certified. You will often hear guards starting their evidence with "i am a trained operator of brand-x laser device...."

And no, an identity card doesn't expire - just the hairline in the photo!


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## Marathon Man (22 Jan 2009)

deadwood said:


> Members using the device must be trained and are certified. You will often hear guards starting their evidence with "i am a trained operator of brand-x laser device...."
> 
> And no, an identity card doesn't expire - just the hairline in the photo!


 
Well you've answered a few of the questions raised, however....to confirm that they have been trained properly, they should, besides stating in their evidence, show documentary evidence of the training process. e.g. when they were trained, who trained them, was the trainer certified, etc? Is their training up to date? These are questions that are asked in many industries.

Other questions: Is the software up to date? Has it been updated on this model?


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## gallogly (22 Jan 2009)

theengineer said:


> She asked me, because she knows I have a law degree, however both her husband and I would be happy to see her face the music. I myself have a total dislike for speeding. I always feel sorry for the member of gardai who has to knock at the door of someone to say that a family member was killed due a road accident.
> 
> I would be delighted to find out the corect procedure if anyone knows it.



you seem to be building up an arsenal of facts/questions that may be used to beat this speeding rap, and this does not tie in with your original statement above. 
Why dont you just ask the question outright ?


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## MrMan (22 Jan 2009)

Padraigb said:


> No, you took a much stronger position. You said "it sounds like the usual carry on of Guards waiting in the 50km zone rather than out where the real speeding takes place.                                                                                              "


 
My stronger position was in the entirity of the post, my second reply was to your specific question, i was explaining that sometimes speed limits are not appropriate for the area they are put up, would you not agree? I also firmly believe that speed traps tend to be in locations where people will either be caught slowing down or accelerating out of 50km zones rather than areas where people are zooming along and at their most dangerous. would you not concur that speed traps tend not to be in the best places to curb speeding but to simply just catch easy targets.


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## Caveat (22 Jan 2009)

Moral Ethos said:


> Nope, in law it is assumed that the device used is calibrated correctly. It is up to you to prove it is not. An impossible task.


 
Not an impossible task at all - it's quite straightforward - but expensive.

However getting them to supply the detector for independent testing is another matter.


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## theengineer (22 Jan 2009)

I did drive to the place this morning to look for myself, it was a place where i would expect the max speed to be 50km ph, there is a school near by. So if her speed was 80, she was driving dangerously. I had a chat with the lady in question and advised her to sit tight till she is contacted. I also pointed out to her that the speed limit was well signposted, and she needs to watch her driving in the future.

I now have done my good duty for the day.


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## deadwood (22 Jan 2009)

Marathon Man said:


> Well you've answered a few of the questions raised, however....to confirm that they have been trained properly, they should, besides stating in their evidence, show documentary evidence of the training process. e.g. when they were trained, who trained them, was the trainer certified, etc? Is their training up to date? These are questions that are asked in many industries.
> 
> Other questions: Is the software up to date? Has it been updated on this model?


Well, they're calibrated to read km/h. Unless the km has been made longer of unit of time has been shortened since the last calibration?

The training is quite thorough as any measure taken in this area (i.e. road safety - intoxylizers, speed detection etc.) is scrutinised minutely in court to exploit any loophole.

Of course,  a certificate of completion of training can be produced.

I won't go into the whole "shooting fish in a barrell" thing. It's been trashed out on every barstool and forum in the country.


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## Caveat (23 Jan 2009)

deadwood said:


> Well, they're calibrated to read km/h. Unless the km has been made longer of unit of time has been shortened since the last calibration?


 
Not the point - the sensors in any device can drift and lose accuracy.

The point of a calibration certificate is to verify the accuracy of the unit by comparing it against the reference readings of a certified standard, generally on an annual basis.


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## deadwood (24 Jan 2009)

I understand Caveat, just stirring a bit. The smiley face didn't have the desired effect, I guess.

If it hasn't happened already, i'm sure it's only a matter of time before an expert will have to go to court to outline the procedure.

It's refreshing to see the thread hasn't descended into the usual speed trap drivel.

I can only pitch in with my experience and don't claim to be an expert.


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## RSMike (28 Jan 2009)

I got done about two years ago for doing 65Km in a 50Km zone on a motorcycle, however, I was aware the speed trap was there as I had passed by earlier, so as far as Iam concerned my speedo was right on 50Km, however as I approached the speed trap a large van just ahead of me was accelearting away clearly breaking the limit, the Garda gun was pointed at me, but the van was also still in its view.
I could not believe they done me,,  it was only when I read later about tests done on these guns proving they nearly always pick the biggest target in their field of vision, that I realised what happened. I remember at the time I was done, thinking, why did they not stop  the van also.

Thought about fighting it, but how do you prove something like that, Just paid the fine and took the points / got penalised on my bike & car insurance,


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## derh50 (3 Oct 2009)

Does anyone know if the Gardai are supposed to wear florescent yellow slip when using Speed Gun. I was stopped recently - the Garda jumped out from behind a pole - in dark uniform. Impossible to see!


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## keithkarl200 (3 Oct 2009)

i don't recall where i seen it but the speed traps or equipment used is supposed to be tested every morning before it is used and the appropriate paper work has to be signed before it leaves


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## MANTO (3 Oct 2009)

Did she actually say she didnt break the limit or is she just looking for a loophole - she should face the music and get over it as i am sure if she knocked somebody down they wouldnt have gotten over it.... the zone is 50 for a reason!!


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## mercman (3 Oct 2009)

derh50 said:


> Does anyone know if the Gardai are supposed to wear florescent yellow slip when using Speed Gun.



I got done for speeding under the same circumstances last year. The Gardai can wear nothing else but their birthday suit and a hat to do you for speeding. In my case the Garda was lucky that I didn't mow him right over.


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## TLC (3 Oct 2009)

derh50   What a stupid attitude to take - grow up & drive responsibly


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## sparkeee (3 Oct 2009)

if she was speeding take the punishment,if not plead not guilty and bring up the question of faulty radar in court.


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## Bluebells (4 Oct 2009)

derh50 said:


> Does anyone know if the Gardai are supposed to wear florescent yellow slip when using Speed Gun. I was stopped recently - the Garda jumped out from behind a pole - in dark uniform. Impossible to see!



Able to hide behind a pole ? You wouldn't see a fellow like that if he turned sideways - no matter what he was wearing.


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## roker (5 Oct 2009)

Marathon Man said:


> "An impossible task"
> I don't know about that. Difficult I'll concede, but not impossible.
> 
> There are a whole pile of questions here, even if incorrect calibration cannot be proven: When was it calibrated? When was it due for recalibration. Was it recalibrated within the manufacturer's recommended time period? Was it repaired? Were original manufacturer's certified parts used? Was it recalibrated following repairs? Who calibrated it? Were they trained? Was the operator/garda trained?
> ...


 
I worked for many years as a Calibration Engineer (not on speed cameras) "Marathon Man" made some pertinent point. I would like to also know the accuracy of the camera because there should be an uncertainty ration of 4 to 1, ie if the camera is 1 mph accurate, the checked speed should be a minimum of 4 mph. Also if the camera was to be out of the certified calibration accuracy when checked, anyone back the last calibration date could have been falsely prosecuted. I think you will find the the calibration frequency would be months of even annually.
Daily calibration refers the car, it should be checked each day if it is being used to monitor speed, for example tyre wear can effect the accuracy.
If someone is blatantly speeding they should be prosecuted, but there is always doubt when only a few mph is quoted.


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