# Rich self-employed says he is getting a pension



## Brendan Burgess (22 Nov 2011)

A friend of mine, a wealthy farmer on good land in Tipperary, says that he will be getting a pension when he reaches 66. He is critical of it saying that many of his wealthy farmer friends are getting it.  He said that it is the non contributory OAP and everyone gets it - it's not specifically for farmers. 

I said that, as far as I know, the non-contributory pension is subject to a means test. From reading Citizens Information, this seems to be correct. 

He would have a valuable farm and other business interests which generate a substantial income for him. 



Brendan


----------



## WindUp (22 Nov 2011)

But the self employed can also qualify for the contributory pension cant they?


----------



## Brendan Burgess (22 Nov 2011)

WindUp said:


> But the self employed can also qualify for the contributory pension cant they?



I have never understood this. I don't think he has been doing anything active to qualify for it. 

Brendan


----------



## T McGibney (22 Nov 2011)

Brendan Burgess said:


> I have never understood this. I don't think he has been doing anything active to qualify for it.
> 
> Brendan



Has he not been paying self-employment PRSI?


----------



## WindUp (22 Nov 2011)

Farmers / Self Employed are PRSI  class S -
As long as a person has the required number of contributions; no reason they will not qualify for the contributory pension.

As far as I am aware , they do not qualify a person for the transitional state mension however (paid at 65 to 66)

*CLASS S BENEFITS:*

Widow's or Widower's (Contributory) Pension
Guardian's Payment (Contributory)
*State Pension (Contributory)*
Maternity Benefit
Adoptive Benefit
Bereavement Grant


----------



## Brendan Burgess (22 Nov 2011)

I got this clarification from my friend



> I applied or rather my accountants did to the State Pension  (Contributory),Dept of Social Protection and received a letter from them  confirming that I am entitled to to the full amount. I didnt think I had  said to you that this was Non Contributory and this clearly means that I  must have been contributing each year as I paid my taxes. Is this taken  out of PRSI or what? I am afraid I am a bit clueless about it but do  recall about 15 yrs ago discussing what I might be entitled to with my  then acountants who advised ensuring that the contribution, whatever it  may be, was paid. I assumed everyone who was self employed did this. Are  you saying that if you havent contributed (which I thought was compulsory  if you have an income) then you get no pension? Any of my friends and  acquaintances who are relatively well off and who are over 66 are drawing  the pension. I assume this applies to all the self employed equally  whether they are business people in Ballsbridge, professionals in  Portmarnock or tillage farmers in Tipperary.



Brendan


----------



## Brendan Burgess (22 Nov 2011)

So all self-employed people can qualify for a contributory OAP. 

I must check this out myself.


----------



## ajapale (22 Nov 2011)

Brendan Burgess said:


> So all self-employed people can qualify for a contributory OAP.
> 
> I must check this out myself.




Its been discussed on AAM many times over the years.



daltonr said:


> One of the benefits of Class S PRSI is the Old Age Contributory Pension  which according to OASIS currently (2007) stands at €179.30 per week and is not  means tested and I can have other sources of income. €179.30 per week is an annual income of €9,323.60


----------



## LDFerguson (23 Nov 2011)

Brendan Burgess said:


> So all self-employed people can qualify for a contributory OAP.
> 
> I must check this out myself.


 
Yes, I pay Class S and I'm looking forward to a State Pension.  I don't qualify for disability or too many other benefits though.


----------



## Brendan Burgess (23 Nov 2011)

I got a follow on email from my friend



> I am not eligible for the fuel allowance.
> 
> 
> But I am eligible for the free travel which  entitles me to hop on bus or train and go wherever I like, all day, every day!!  So with free travel and pension I can head to Dublin, say twice a week, have  lunch in Patrick Gilbauds and head home again by bus and train.
> ...


----------



## Brendan Burgess (23 Nov 2011)

LDFerguson said:


> Yes, I pay Class S and I'm looking forward to a State Pension.  I don't qualify for disability or too many other benefits though.



Hi Liam

Will it still be there by the time you retire?  I suspect it will be means tested by then.

Brendan


----------



## T McGibney (23 Nov 2011)

A worthwhile argument Brendan, just a pity to see it being couched in terms of 'rich farmer' bashing that merely adds to city dwellers prejudices about farming. 'Your friend' has paid for his pension, and is no more undeserving of it than Ray Burke or Mary Harney are of theirs


----------



## Purple (23 Nov 2011)

Brendan, does your friend know you are posting his emails on a discussion forum?


----------



## Brendan Burgess (23 Nov 2011)

T McGibney said:


> A worthwhile argument Brendan, just a pity to see it being couched in terms of 'rich farmer' bashing that merely adds to city dwellers prejudices about farming. 'Your friend' has paid for his pension, and is no more undeserving of it than Ray Burke or Mary Harney are of theirs



Hi Tommy

That is why I edited the title when I realised it was for all self-employed people. 

I have now deleted the posts relating to the farm retirment scheme as well, as they are no longer relevant.

Brendan


----------



## Brendan Burgess (23 Nov 2011)

Purple said:


> Brendan, does your friend know you are posting his emails on a discussion forum?



Yes


----------



## Black Sheep (23 Nov 2011)

Wasn't that farmer a lucky man that his accountant looked after him so well.
There huge lack of understanding of State Pensions and the qualifying conditions. 
As there no degrees in SW the advice is very scarce and everybody who pays PRSI at whichever rates should have a good look at what they are paying and what benefits they are entitled to. At present (which may change shortly) everyone who has paid sufficient class A or S contributions should get their State Pension at age 66.

Also available at age 66 is


Free travel (whether or not you have a State Pension)
Household Benefit .ie. Electricity, & telephone discounts + free TV license (non means tested)


----------



## Slim (23 Nov 2011)

Black Sheep said:


> Also available at age 66 is
> 
> 
> Free travel (whether or not you have a State Pension)
> Household Benefit .ie. Electricity, & telephone discounts + free TV license (non means tested)


Not quite so straightforward..http://www.citizensinformation.ie/e..._people/income_supports_for_older_people.html


----------



## Black Sheep (23 Nov 2011)

Not sure which part isn't straightforward


----------



## ClubMan (23 Nov 2011)

Black Sheep said:


> Not sure which part isn't straightforward


I presume that _Slim _was referring to the fact that you don't necessarily/automatically get all of those benefits at 66 and there are some qualifying conditions attaching to some of them? E.g.:



> *Household Benefits Package*
> 
> The Household Benefits Package includes the Electricity or Natural Gas Allowance, Free TV Licence and Telephone Allowance. If you are aged 70 or over, you qualify regardless of your income or who lives with you. The scheme may also be available to people aged 66 and over who get certain social welfare payments or whose income is below certain limits. Apply to the Department of Social Protection.


----------



## Hoagy (23 Nov 2011)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Hi Liam
> 
> Will it still be there by the time you retire? I suspect it will be means tested by then.
> 
> Brendan


 
Brendan,

Are you suggesting that the contributory pension will be means tested for PAYE workers as well, or just the self employed?


----------



## Black Sheep (23 Nov 2011)

Household benefit package *is *available to those aged *66* if they have a State Pension (or part thereof) as per the OP

I see no reason why State Pension should be means tested to self employed people and not to PAYE. Either it's means tested to all or none.  After all many pensions are awarded based on a combination of class A and S contributions


----------



## naughto (23 Nov 2011)

you get the Household benefit package as well if u are on* Invalidity Pension*


----------



## Protocol (25 Nov 2011)

Anybody suggesting means-testing of state pensions should bear in mind that there are two State Pensions:

the social insurance PRSI contributory pension (CSP)

the social assistance means-tested non-contributory pension
People seem to be suggesting that the CSP might be means-tested. But there alreay exists a means-tested SP, for those people who haven't paid enough PRSI.

My point is that a suggestion to means-test the CSP ignores the contributory principle, i.e. you paid your PRSI, so you are entitled to it.

If it is to be means-tested, then you would simply abolish it, and let everybody apply for the existing means-tested SP.


----------

