# Alcohol in every corner of the supermarket



## patspost (4 Feb 2008)

The other day I was in the supermarket and it struck me that at almost every corner, maybe the top or bottom of every other aisle there was an alcohol promotion.
While I am partial to an alcoholic beverage myself and feel that I am fortunate to be able to enjoy a drink responsibily this is not something that others can do.
I think that alcohol should be confined to a defined section of the supermarket only, this would put less temptation in the way of those who would like to avoid it.
I have no gripe with cheap booze or that, but I feel it should be retricted and that if you are nipping in for a bit of shopping you should not be bombarded with booze.
One supermarket before Christmas was doing a promo, half price bottle of wine when you spent over €xx on groceries, this is surely wrong.
Am I too sensitive about this issue, what do others think?


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## ClubMan (4 Feb 2008)

patspost said:


> Am I too sensitive about this issue, what do others think?


Yes.


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## Purple (4 Feb 2008)

patspost said:


> One supermarket before Christmas was doing a promo, half price bottle of wine when you spent over €xx on groceries, this is surely wrong.


Why is this wrong?


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## ClubMan (4 Feb 2008)

Some people have an obsessive compulsion to shoplift - maybe we should clear the shelves altogether to remove this temptation from them?


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## Calico (5 Feb 2008)

I've often thought the same to be honest & I do think alcohol should be sold separately to the food/groceries. Seems sensible given the nature of the product.


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## Simeon (5 Feb 2008)

Patspost! Looks like you're getting yourself into a lot of tight corners lately. Perhaps you need to stay in more often.


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## RMCF (5 Feb 2008)

I think its great that there are so many deals on alcohol these days.

Every now and again I avail of 3 for £10 on wine. But that doesn't make me a wino. 

I know where you are coming from, but we shouldn't have to stop selling and promoting alcohol just because we have a society that can't cope with it in moderation.

For people like myself it is a great deal. If however you can't go into a supermarket without being tempting to go overboard on alcohol shopping then perhaps you need to look at yourself and go and get help.


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## truthseeker (5 Feb 2008)

It comes down to personal responsibility. You can make alcohol very difficult to purchase and the people with alcohol abuse problems will find a way to abuse it regardless. Being on sale in every corner of a supermarket is not what causes alcohol abuse problems.


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## diarmuidc (5 Feb 2008)

Calico said:


> I've often thought the same to be honest & I do think alcohol should be sold separately to the food/groceries. Seems sensible given the nature of the product.


Why? to make it difficult to enjoy a glass of wine with your dinner?...


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## shnaek (5 Feb 2008)

Look, we all know that humans are mindless fools and when they see a bottle of alcohol they simply must have it - so thank God for the good people who try to take temptation from our path.


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## Sylvester3 (5 Feb 2008)

RMCF said:


> Every now and again I avail of 3 for £10 on wine. But that doesn't make me a wino.



It sure doesn't make you a wine connoisseur! Seriously I bought some cheap wine just before the holidays on a 2 for 1 deal and I haven't touched the second bottle. I'm keeping it in case I need to remove some varnish from the living room floor. It was disgusting - talk about tannins, I think it was made up of nothing but!


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## ClubMan (5 Feb 2008)

Sylvester3 said:


> It sure doesn't make you a wine connisseur!


A wha'?


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## Sylvester3 (5 Feb 2008)

ClubMan said:


> A wha'?



Its a misspelled french word.  it!


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## Calico (5 Feb 2008)

diarmuidc said:


> Why? to make it difficult to enjoy a glass of wine with your dinner?...



Well, it's not that. But, the OP is right, there is no alcohol-free place in the supermarket these days. It wasn't long ago when in most supermarkets the booze was still sold, but in a seperate off-license bit. I think that was a good compromise.

In general I abhor the idea of curtailing a person's freedom to choose, but the reality is that we are a nation of heavy drinkers and alchol can be an addictive substance which has ruined many lives. So I just think it's reasonable to believe that _maybe_ it shouldn't be as prevalent and promoted in supermarkets where most if not all people go for their shopping.

Having said that, maybe the new relaxed way will eventually help to foster a new drinking culture? I honestly don't know.....don't see much evidence of that yet though.


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## ubiquitous (5 Feb 2008)

Calico said:


> Having said that, maybe the new relaxed way will eventually help to foster a new drinking culture? I honestly don't know.....don't see much evidence of that yet though.



In fairness, the vast majority of people who drink alcohol in this country do so responsibly and in moderation. It is imho unfair to punish them for the overindulgence of a minority. In any society, you will always have a certain element who will abuse alcohol.

Around a decade ago, I spent a few weeks in India, where there is absolutely no drink culture and where probably 99.5% of people are total abstainers. Yet in some places I still saw "winos" hanging around the street, out of it.


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## MrMan (5 Feb 2008)

> In fairness, the vast majority of people who drink alcohol in this country do so responsibly and in moderation. It is imho unfair to punish them for the overindulgence of a minority. In any society, you will always have a certain element who will abuse alcohol.



Don't think the OP was looking to punish drinkers, just make it less in your face in supermarkets. I don't see whats wrong with having a seperate area and still having the deals, if your looking for drink you will know where to find it.


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## ClubMan (5 Feb 2008)

I don't see what's wrong with having alcohol or any other goods distributed throughout the store. One way or another those who want to use or abuse it will find it so I don't see what the point in corralling it into one spot is to be honest. In fact one could argue that putting it all in one spot might just give those who want to abuse it too much choice in one place. An argument as facile as the original one in my opinion.


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## ubiquitous (5 Feb 2008)

Does anyone have any sensible suggestions as to how such legislation could be enforced? Are we going to have yet more inspectors travelling from shop to shop at the taxpayer's expense? How will small shops and convenience stores comply if their retail space is limited? Imho, we have far too much regulation as it is - much of it of questionable value, and all of it very costly for the taxpayer.


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## Sylvester3 (5 Feb 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> Does anyone have any sensible suggestions as to how such legislation could be enforced? Are we going to have yet more inspectors travelling from shop to shop at the taxpayer's expense? How will small shops and convenience stores comply if their retail space is limited? Imho, we have far too much regulation as it is - much of it of questionable value, and all of it very costly for the taxpayer.



Prohibition! That will sort it out.


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## Berlin (5 Feb 2008)

As obesity is supposed to be more of a danger to our health these days than alcohol, we should also prohibit the sale of potatoes, as people might be tempted to make chips.


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## Purple (5 Feb 2008)

Sylvester3 said:


> It was disgusting - talk about tannins, I think it was made up of nothing but!


 I'm surprised that cheap wine has a high tannin content. Try opening the next bottle three of four hours (or even a day) before you drink it. That should help.


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## Calico (5 Feb 2008)

Don't you think the alcohol is different to all the other products that are sold in a supermarket though? I mean, lets be honest, alcohol is a drug. One that the vast majority of people enjoy responsibly yes, but a drug nonetheless, and one which is abused by a significant minority. I guess you can't please everyone though.


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## truthseeker (5 Feb 2008)

Not really. People also abuse food and overeat to alarming proportions, or abuse laxatives and suffer from eating disorders, people are addicted to cigarettes and caffeine.

I think that people have to be responsible for their own behaviour. I dont think the Supermarket should be held responsible for other peoples alcohol abuse.


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## ClubMan (5 Feb 2008)

Calico said:


> Don't you think the alcohol is different to all the other products that are sold in a supermarket though? I mean, lets be honest, alcohol is a drug. One that the vast majority of people enjoy responsibly yes, but a drug nonetheless, and one which is abused by a significant minority. I guess you can't please everyone though.


So is caffeine. Should we lock the coffee and tea bags away too to protect caffeine addicts from themselves and those who can moderate their intake from nothing at all? What about solvents? A small number of people abuse these too.


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## Calico (5 Feb 2008)

ClubMan said:


> So is caffeine. Should we lock the coffee and tea bags away too to protect caffeine addicts from themselves and those who can moderate their intake from nothing at all? What about solvents? A small number of people abuse these too.



Not really the same thing I don't think....


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## Sylvester3 (5 Feb 2008)

Purple said:


> I'm surprised that cheap wine has a high tannin content. Try opening the next bottle three of four hours (or even a day) before you drink it. That should help.



TBH, I left it out in the kitchen overnight after the first glass and it was a lot more palitable. It wasn't pleasant, but at least I didn't feel like I was varnishing my throat.


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## Purple (5 Feb 2008)

Sylvester3 said:


> TBH, I left it out in the kitchen overnight after the first glass and it was a lot more palitable. It wasn't pleasant, but at least I didn't feel like I was varnishing my throat.


Try warming it to a few degrees above room temperature next time then drink it with beef or game, it should be fine.


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## DrMoriarty (5 Feb 2008)

I'm in two minds — I'm all for adults taking personal responsibility, but I do sometimes feel uneasy when I walk with my young kids past 8-foot-high displays of slabs of beercans draped in Rugby (or GAA) colours in the lead-up to a match. This happens all the time in my local supermarkets (and no, I haven't bothered complaining!)

We no longer allow billboard advertising of tobacco products; we're pleased when supermarkets provide sweet-free aisles; we have advertising standards which prohibit messages implying that alcohol makes you smarter/cooler/more attractive to the opposite sex. Why not ask supermarkets to market alcohol a bit more responsibly, too? They make a lot of money out of it.



Purple said:


> ...drink it with beef or game, it should be fine.


What, so now you you want us to kill innocent little furry animals to go with the stuff...?!?


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## Sylvester3 (5 Feb 2008)

Purple said:


> Try warming it to a few degrees above room temperature next time then drink it with beef or game, it should be fine.



Ok, thanks for the advice.


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## ClubMan (5 Feb 2008)

Calico said:


> Not really the same thing I don't think....


No - but similar - which is why I mentioned them.


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## casiopea (5 Feb 2008)

In Ireland do all supermarket chains stock alcohol?  

Certainly here there are 2 major chains, one that sells alcohol (and its laid out somewhat similar to home with promotions etc around the store) and one that doesnt.  If you wish to avoid alcohol in the supermarket, for whatever the reason, you shop there.  Its a good solution to the problem - rarely does one supermarket have something that the other doesnt (with the exception of alcohol).  I know other countries have a similar model as well.


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## Calico (5 Feb 2008)

ClubMan said:


> No - but similar - which is why I mentioned them.



What about drugs like cocaine can cannibas? Should they be legalized and sold in supermarkets? Why/ why not?


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## MrMan (5 Feb 2008)

> Not really. People also abuse food and overeat to alarming proportions, or abuse laxatives and suffer from eating disorders, people are addicted to cigarettes and caffeine.



All above products are usually located in their own section, OP/calico weren't looking to ban it just not have it at every turn.



> So is caffeine. Should we lock the coffee and tea bags away too to protect caffeine addicts from themselves and those who can moderate their intake from nothing at all? What about solvents? A small number of people abuse these too.



Again straying from the OP/calico's argument.


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## truthseeker (5 Feb 2008)

MrMan said:


> All above products are usually located in their own section, OP/calico weren't looking to ban it just not have it at every turn.
> 
> 
> 
> Again straying from the OP/calico's argument.


 
You have taken my individual comment completely out of context - what I said was in direct response to the OP/Calicos comment "Don't you think the alcohol is different to all the other products that are sold in a supermarket though?"


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## ClubMan (5 Feb 2008)

Calico said:


> What about drugs like cocaine can cannibas? Should they be legalized and sold in supermarkets? Why/ why not?


Different discussion since I was referring to drugs that are already legal.

However personally I would have few objections to all such drugs being legalised, (quality) controlled, taxed etc. but I would obviously be in a minority in this view. In general I don't believe that what grown adults do should be circumscribed by law as long as what they do doesn't harm the person or property of other non consenting parties. Basically the same sort of views as outlined in this book.


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## ubiquitous (5 Feb 2008)

_Quote:
Not really. People also abuse food and overeat to alarming proportions, or abuse laxatives and suffer from eating disorders, people are addicted to cigarettes and caffeine._


MrMan said:


> All above products are usually located in their own section, OP/calico weren't looking to ban it just not have it at every turn.



Usually, yes (no more than alcohol) but always? No, especially when coffee for example is sold prominently in "buy one get one free"-type promotions.


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## MrMan (5 Feb 2008)

> Usually, yes (no more than alcohol) but always? No, especially when coffee for example is sold prominently in "buy one get one free"-type promotions.



Which is why I said usually, either way you usually don't have to navigate around stacks of coffee either. I'm not really backing up the OP just saying the point isn't as ludicrous as it is being made out.


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## Simeon (5 Feb 2008)

ClubMan said:


> Different discussion since I was referring to drugs that are already legal.
> 
> However personally I would have few objections to all such drugs being legalised, (quality) controlled, taxed etc. but I would obviously be in a minority in this view. In general I don't believe that what grown adults do should be circumscribed by law as long as what they do doesn't harm the person or property of other non consenting parties. Basically the same sort of views as outlined in this book.


Hmmmmm! Stocktaker/QC person wanted by large supermarket chain. Graduate of University of Life. Must be proficient in two of the following: Powerpoint, AK47, Glock. Attractive package, 3 ltr car, foreign travel, life insurance etc.


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## z106 (5 Feb 2008)

ClubMan said:


> No - but similar - which is why I mentioned them.


 
I doubt very much that abuse of caffeine is leading to too much anti-social behaviour on our streets.


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## DrMoriarty (5 Feb 2008)

...so _far_. 

Interesting comparative study here.


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## Purple (5 Feb 2008)

Simeon said:


> Hmmmmm! Stocktaker/QC person wanted by large supermarket chain. Graduate of University of Life. Must be proficient in two of the following: Powerpoint, AK47, Glock. Attractive package, 3 ltr car, foreign travel, life insurance etc.



Imagine the offers though, free adrenaline shot with every six pack of heroin.


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## ClubMan (5 Feb 2008)

qwertyuiop said:


> I doubt very much that abuse of caffeine is leading to too much anti-social behaviour on our streets.


How exactly is gathering all alcoholic products into one place in the store rather than having them dispersed around the place going to address the issue of alcohol fuelled anti-social behaviour then?


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## diarmuidc (5 Feb 2008)

Calico said:


> What about drugs like cocaine can cannibas? Should they be legalized and sold in supermarkets? Why/ why not?



They should but that's not the discussion here.

From your posts I take it you want a legal and, in moderation, healthy "drug" sold in specific shops at specific times, because some people are not responsible?


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## Calico (5 Feb 2008)

I don't believe that any drugs should be illegal. It makes much more sense to control and regulate them imo.

Regarding alcohol though, I just think we need to get real. If you think people's drinking habits aren't causing huge social problems then I think you're living in cloud cuckoo land. Most people have no issue with it but the fact is large amount of people do. So why do we have such a problem and what, if anything should be done?

Given the scale of the problem as I see it, one of things we could try would be to roll-back some of the extreme marketing and availabilty of alcohol that we currently see in supermarkets for example. I think that is a measured approach to helping to tackle what in my opinion is a serious problem. I also think there is an argument for raising the price of alcohol. But I don't consider myself a nazi about the whole thing. I don't particularly want to have to trapise to an off-license to buy a bottle either but I woudn't feel like making small adjustments like that was an attack on my rights as some seem to. I wish everyone drank responsibly and there was little of no problems with alcohol like we have with coffee. That's not reality though.

Horizon on BBC2 tonight was actually quite pertinent. They listed the top 20 drugs with alcohol coming in somewhere in the top 10 (can't remember where) above the likes of ecstacy, cannibas, tobacco and lsd. They were candid about its physical and mental effects, particularly binge drinking, the cheapness of it, it's availability & the awful social problems it causes. 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/horizon/broadband/index.shtml


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## z106 (6 Feb 2008)

ClubMan said:


> How exactly is gathering all alcoholic products into one place in the store rather than having them dispersed around the place going to address the issue of alcohol fuelled anti-social behaviour then?


 
You were attempting to draw a direct analogy with caffeine.

Not at all comparable in most peoples book.


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## REMFAN (6 Feb 2008)

ClubMan said:


> I don't see what's wrong with having alcohol or any other goods distributed throughout the store. One way or another those who want to use or abuse it will find it so I don't see what the point in corralling it into one spot is to be honest. In fact one could argue that putting it all in one spot might just give those who want to abuse it too much choice in one place. An argument as facile as the original one in my opinion.


 
Haha I think the OP when a little OTT when she said she's 'bombarded by booze'. Visions of an 12 foot wine bottle chasing the OP around the store screaming 'buy me!!!' came to mind


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## truthseeker (6 Feb 2008)

Calico said:


> Regarding alcohol though, I just think we need to get real. If you think people's drinking habits aren't causing huge social problems then I think you're living in cloud cuckoo land.


 
I absolutely agree with that - but I fail to see how gathering all the drink into one area of the supermarket is going to change it. A huge amount of alcohol abuse happens in pubs/clubs or as a result of people using off licences. So long as its for sale at all, anywhere, its going to be available for those who have an abuse problem.


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## shnaek (6 Feb 2008)

Also we must look at large countries with much greater populations than ours where alcohol is a lot cheaper than here, and where they have less social issues around it - such as France and Germany. Alas we cannot seem to take a mature view here in Ireland, and end up punishing everyone by making things much more expensive and less available, rather than tackling the source of the problem in the first place.
Our politicians and moral guardians blame the gun, and not the user of the gun.
Frankly it's pathetic.


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## ajapale (6 Feb 2008)

I have removed posts which are off topic and attack posters rather than posts.

ajapale
Moderator


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## ubiquitous (7 Feb 2008)

patspost said:


> The other day I was in the supermarket and it struck me that at almost every corner, maybe the top or bottom of every other aisle there was an alcohol promotion.
> ...
> I think that alcohol should be confined to a defined section of the supermarket only, this would put less temptation in the way of those who would like to avoid it.



I heard on Morning Ireland this morning, that this happens to be the policy of the National Off-Licence Association. To the OP, have you any connection with the off-licence trade?


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## MrMan (7 Feb 2008)

Has everyone else a connection with the supermarket trade?


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## ClubMan (7 Feb 2008)

MrMan said:


> Has everyone else a connection with the supermarket trade?


If you mean on this thread then no - I don't think so. Certainly not me anyway and I'm pretty sure not many or most of the other regular posters.


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## annR (7 Feb 2008)

You can argue that locating the alcohol all in one spot isn't going to fix society's problems with it, but personally I don't think it's appropriate for it to be piled high in your face either.   I can't remember seeing it stacked up on corners near the groceries but I would think it would be inappropriate to promote buying volumes of booze in a country which has a serious problem with it.


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## ubiquitous (7 Feb 2008)

annR said:


> I would think it would be inappropriate to promote buying volumes of booze in a country which has a serious problem with it.



A drinker can do more harm to themselves with a normal 700ml or 1 litre bottle of spirits than with a 24-case of lager. Should we ban normal-sized spirit bottles so?


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## truthseeker (7 Feb 2008)

annR said:


> You can argue that locating the alcohol all in one spot isn't going to fix society's problems with it, but personally I don't think it's appropriate for it to be piled high in your face either. I can't remember seeing it stacked up on corners near the groceries but I would think it would be inappropriate to promote buying volumes of booze in a country which has a serious problem with it.


 
Just to think this through a little - what if you were having a dinner party for 20 people and you were providing the booze - then it would be appropriate for you to be buying a large volume of booze all at once - even if that only came down to 2 glasses of wine or 2 beers per person. So realistically you cannot draw conclusions from someones supermarket trolley piled high with booze because you dont know what the purpose of it is.


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## diarmuidc (7 Feb 2008)

truthseeker said:


> Just to think this through a little -


Stop right there ! None of that crazy talk.


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## truthseeker (7 Feb 2008)

diarmuidc said:


> Stop right there ! None of that crazy talk.


 
Youre right - what was I doing thinking - down with that sort of thing!!!


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## annR (8 Feb 2008)

> So realistically you cannot draw conclusions from someones supermarket trolley piled high with booze because you dont know what the purpose of it is.


 
ehhh, I don't remember doing that.   I would not judge whether it was appropriate for individuals to be buying something.  I don't care if someone buys a shed load for their dinner party.  I'm looking at it on a society level.  I don't think it's appropriate to promote buying large volumes of it to as many people as possible given that overall alcohol is a problem in our society.



> A drinker can do more harm to themselves with a normal 700ml or 1 litre bottle of spirits than with a 24-case of lager. Should we ban normal-sized spirit bottles so?


 
Did I say that something should be banned?  no.  Are bottles of spirits on the edge of aisles being promoted with discounts etc?  no.


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## Calico (8 Feb 2008)

Primetime did a feature on the subject on the availability of  alcohol last night.  Showed teenagers getting served in most places, talked about how alcohol was available for sale at every turn & how it is sometimes cheaper than water....


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## truthseeker (8 Feb 2008)

annR said:


> ehhh, I don't remember doing that. I would not judge whether it was appropriate for individuals to be buying something. I don't care if someone buys a shed load for their dinner party. I'm looking at it on a society level. I don't think it's appropriate to promote buying large volumes of it to as many people as possible given that overall alcohol is a problem in our society.


 
Apologies AnnR - I didnt mean to infer that you personally were drawing conclusions - perhaps I should have worded that 'conclusions cannot be drawn' as opposed to 'you cannot draw conclusions'.

I dont agree that overall alcohol is a problem in our society - there are a minority of people who do not drink in a responsible manner and a minority of people who have an alcohol abuse or addiction problem. But I think it is unlikely that how the product is marketed will change those people.


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## Calico (8 Feb 2008)

truthseeker said:


> I dont agree that overall alcohol is a problem in our society - there are a minority of people who do not drink in a responsible manner and a minority of people who have an alcohol abuse or addiction problem.



 Try telling that to people who work in A&E departments, police officers, victims of drunk drivers, domestic abuse cases........


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## ClubMan (8 Feb 2008)

Calico said:


> Primetime did a feature on the subject on the availability of  alcohol last night.  Showed teenagers getting served in most places, talked about how alcohol was available for sale at every turn & how it is sometimes cheaper than water....


The issue of some retailers breaking the law by selling alcohol to under age customers is a different one to the issue of stocking, availability and pricing of alcohol.



Calico said:


> truthseeker said:
> 
> 
> > I dont agree that overall alcohol is a problem in our society - there are a minority of people who do not drink in a responsible manner and a minority of people who have an alcohol abuse or addiction problem.
> ...


Are you implying that these people are in the majority?!


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## truthseeker (8 Feb 2008)

Calico said:


> Try telling that to people who work in A&E departments, police officers, victims of drunk drivers, domestic abuse cases........


That is still a minority group within society.


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## Calico (8 Feb 2008)

ClubMan said:


> The issue of some retailers breaking the law by selling alcohol to under age customers is a different one to the issue of stocking, availability and pricing of alcohol.


   It's part of the wider debate - the more availability the harder to enforce age-limits.   


ClubMan said:


> Are you implying that these people are in the majority?!



 I was referring to the posters statment that there was no social problems with the consumption of alcohol.


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## Caveat (8 Feb 2008)

Calico said:


> I was referring to the posters statment that there was no social problems with the consumption of alcohol.


 
Who said that?


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## Calico (8 Feb 2008)

truthseeker said:


> I dont agree that overall alcohol is a problem in our society -


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## truthseeker (8 Feb 2008)

truthseeker said:


> I dont agree that overall alcohol is a problem in our society - there are a minority of people who do not drink in a responsible manner and a minority of people who have an alcohol abuse or addiction problem.


 
If you dont quote in full you can make dramatic differences to the meaning of what was originally said.


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## Calico (8 Feb 2008)

truthseeker said:


> If you dont quote in full you can make dramatic differences to the meaning of what was originally said.



I did quote you in full - see my previous post.  We're arguing over semantics here. You clearly don't agree that acohol is a problem because the majority don't abuse it.  I think you're completely wrong.


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## ClubMan (8 Feb 2008)

Calico said:


> Horizon on BBC2 tonight was actually quite pertinent.


If you think that _Horizon _is a good source of objective scientific information about issues then I feel sorry for you...


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## truthseeker (8 Feb 2008)

Calico said:


> I did quote you in full - see my previous post. We're arguing over semantics here. You clearly don't agree that acohol is a problem because the majority don't abuse it. I think you're completely wrong.


 
I do think that alcohol causes problems within society - but not an overall problem, overall would imply that the majority of people who drink have problems or cause problems because of alcohol - which is untrue. 

Certainly the problems caused are significant and are have an impact on more people than just the drinker but the point I was making is that it is a minority of people who abuse the stuff and the marketing of it is not what dictates the behaviour of these people.


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## Calico (8 Feb 2008)

truthseeker said:


> I do think that alcohol causes problems within society - but not an overall problem, overall would imply that the majority of people who drink have problems or cause problems because of alcohol - which is untrue.
> 
> Certainly the problems caused are significant and are have an impact on more people than just the drinker but the point I was making is that it is a minority of people who abuse the stuff and the marketing of it is not what dictates the behaviour of these people.



 Hmmm, if marketing makes no difference then I don't think drinks companies would waste their money on it. If the availability and cost makes no difference then what other factors explain the huge rise in binge-drinking etc? If there are other factors shouldn't we tackle these first before completely liberalising the sale of alcohol?   I can't agree with your definition of what is and isn't a problem - I think it would be a pretty sad state if we only considered those things that affected the majority as a problem worthy of tackling. Who's to say you won't take a turn tonight and end up in an a&e  department full of drunks?


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## ClubMan (8 Feb 2008)

Calico said:


> If the availability and cost makes no difference then what other factors explain the huge rise in binge-drinking etc?


A significant increase in the amount of disposable income and credit driven consumption in recent years would be one (two?) for example.


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## truthseeker (8 Feb 2008)

I dont disagree with you Calico that alcohol certainly causes problems and indeed the world would be a better place if people didnt damage themselves with an accident drunk that wouldnt have happened sober and thus filled up A&E departments unnecessarily.

I have never said (and in fact have clarified to you twice now but you dont seem to be taking it in) that only things that affect the majority are problem-worthy. I simply said, again, that OVERALL implies majority and the problems are with a minority - but that is NOT to say that alcohol does not cause problems and if you want to misread it as such then there is no more I can say to clarify it.

Binge drinking will happen no matter how the alcohol is marketed. As will alcoholism. This thread is aimed specifically at the notion of alcohol piled up in supermarket on every corner - all I am saying is that this, in my opinion, is not what causes problems with alcohol. If supermarkets were to ban the sale of alcohol outright and no advertising was done people will still use an off licence or pub to get it from. And the responsible drinkers will remain the responsible drinkers while the people with problems will still abuse it.

This country need a cultural shift in attitude to alcohol before the problems can truly be addressed.


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## Caveat (8 Feb 2008)

Calico said:


> Hmmm, if marketing makes no difference


 
What truthseeker said was that the marketing of it *does* *not dictate the* *behaviour of these people.*

Which is obviously true.

Of course marketing makes a difference in a general sense - everyone has to sell their products.

The problem is with the people and it is a problem of attitude/responsibility - the problem is not the product per se.

_Edit: crossed with Truthseeker_


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## Ceist Beag (8 Feb 2008)

I have to give Calico some support here in that I very much believe that supermarkets/petrol stations and the like are responsible for making alcohol more accessible to underage drinkers. I believe (and it's only my personal opinion) that young people feel it is far easier to walk into a supermarket and purchase alcohol than it is to do so in an off-license or a pub. Sure they could get around this by getting others to buy it for them if supermarkets weren't an option but it certainly is easier to get their hands on it now than it used to be.


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## truthseeker (8 Feb 2008)

Ceist Beag said:


> I have to give Calico some support here in that I very much believe that supermarkets/petrol stations and the like are responsible for making alcohol more accessible to underage drinkers. I believe (and it's only my personal opinion) that young people feel it is far easier to walk into a supermarket and purchase alcohol than it is to do so in an off-license or a pub. Sure they could get around this by getting others to buy it for them if supermarkets weren't an option but it certainly is easier to get their hands on it now than it used to be.


 
Dont dispute that in the slightest, it probably is easier, but again - that is not a function of it being piled high on supermarket corners but a function of supermarket having lax rules about checking IDs.


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## Caveat (8 Feb 2008)

I'm not saying that it's exactly difficult for young people to get their hands on alcohol these days - which needs addressing - but it certainly is my honest impression that it is more difficult now than when I was a teenager (80s)

I could drink in pubs and buy drink in off licences from the age of about 14 or 15 - most of my peers were the same and not once were we ever challenged about age/ID etc.


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## Cahir (8 Feb 2008)

From talking to my younger cousins it seems much more difficult to get served underage these days.

My first time drinking in a nightclub was at 15 and I was never once asked for ID in any pubs or clubs.  I don't think I looked over 18.  Only one of my friends was ever refused from a pub/club so we all just went to another pub for one and went back to the first one through a back door.  We had a lot less money than kids these days seem to but we still managed to go out every weekend on a tenner (and that included buying a band t-shirt in FM most weeks!).


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## diarmuidc (8 Feb 2008)

Calico said:


> I did quote you in full - see my previous post.  We're arguing over semantics here. You clearly don't agree that acohol is a problem because the majority don't abuse it.  I think you're completely wrong.


Most here are not arguing that there isn't a drink problem in Irish culture, what I strongly disagree with are your solutions.



Ceist Beag said:


> I have to give Calico some support here in that I very much believe that supermarkets/petrol stations and the like are responsible for making alcohol more accessible to underage drinkers.


Well that's already illegal. How about we enforce the laws we already have, before we go penalizing all drinkers.


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## ClubMan (8 Feb 2008)

diarmuidc said:


> Well that's already illegal. How about we enforce the laws we already have, before we go penalizing all drinkers.


Exactly - well said.


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## Ceist Beag (8 Feb 2008)

diarmuidc said:


> Well that's already illegal. How about we enforce the laws we already have, before we go penalizing all drinkers.



Absolutely - I'm just pointing out this is a problem, not suggesting supermarkets stop selling alcohol. But I would have some sympathy with law enforcers in this area as there are something like 4 times as many outlets selling alcohol now compared to before the law was changed. In the meantime we have to live with the consequences.


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## ubiquitous (8 Feb 2008)

Ceist Beag said:


> there are something like 4 times as many outlets selling alcohol now compared to before the law was changed. In the meantime we have to live with the consequences.



You have to ask why was the law changed in the first instance. There were several good reasons at the time increased competition and facilitating a burgeoning demand from people who did not want to drink in pubs. The consequences of this change are not all bad, in my opinion. In fact, I would worry far more about the misery caused by the surge in gambling in recent years than that caused by alcohol.


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## shnaek (18 Feb 2008)

Well, some may be happy to read that the IMO want sale of alcohol in supermarkets etc to be banned!
[broken link removed]


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## diarmuidc (18 Feb 2008)

shnaek said:


> Well, some may be happy to read that the IMO want sale of alcohol in supermarkets etc to be banned!
> [broken link removed]



Nanny State, here we come!


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## Protocol (18 Feb 2008)

I don't think the law actually changes to allow more off-licences.

What happened a few years ago was that licences were allowed to be transferred from any civil parish to any other civil parish.

Before that, a licence could only stay within the same civil parish.

So if a pub closed in Galway cith centre, the licence could only be transferred to a new pub or off-licence in Galway city centre.

But now, if a pub shuts anywhere, then the licence can be transferred to areas that are "under-pubbed".  I think this makes sense.

Also, a licence from an old pub can be transferred to a new off-licence anywhere.


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