# At festival, undercover member of the DS seized my stuff, what happens next?



## Keek

Hello folks,

A lil help would be really appreciated. I was at a festival over the weekend, enjoying festival life, I was smoking a Joint. An undercover member of the DS came over to me, He seized my stuff. He said that if I just gave it to him nothing more would be done, no trips to the station or searches etc. I did everything asked, gave my details etc.

He sized about €50 worth of stock, just smoke nothing else, and said that I should expect a court summons in the post. But not to worry to much about it "Standard Stuff", the details from there on in were vague.

What happens next, is this summons delivered to my door by lads in a squad car or through the post as normal. What is the usual procedure in these cases, simple fine to be paid in the court office and end of story or do I need to get my suit dry cleaned? 

i appreciate that ye do not have all the details, but just a few words on what to expect, and what's the norm in cases in simular to this would really put me at ease, it the not knowing what's goin on that worries me.


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## mathepac

*Re: Court Summons....festival life!*

Get your suit dry-cleaned.

Depending on the judge / court area you are in, expect to be fined and / or make a voluntary contribution to a registered charity and / or be instructed to attend a drug and alcohol awareness programme.

A word of warning - on criminal conviction for a drug-related offence, it most certainly is not end of story. Your future travel plans may be limited and you will be denied entry to certain countries including the USA and you may find future career options closed off to you.

I have no idea how court summonses are delivered.


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## j26

*Re: Court Summons....festival life!*

As mathepac said, your travel plans can be limited, so once you get the summons, get a solicitor.

As for delivery, it could be the gardai calling up, but I was summoned before (Road Traffic) and it was delivered by registered post.


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## ClubMan

*Re: Court Summons....festival life!*

Would it not be a good idea to consult with a solicitor *NOW *just in case? Rather than waiting until a summons is served?


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## Vanilla

*Re: Court Summons....festival life!*



> An undercover member of the DS came over to me, He seized my stuff. He said that if I just gave it to him nothing more would be done, no trips to the station or searches etc. I did everything asked, gave my details etc.


 
LOL. Did he show you his 'badge'? I might be a bit cynical but don't hold your breath for the summons...


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## superdrog

*Re: Court Summons....festival life!*



Vanilla said:


> LOL. Did he show you his 'badge'? I might be a bit cynical but don't hold your breath for the summons...


Exactly my thinking Vanilla , you were probably duped.


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## monkeyboy

*Re: Court Summons....festival life!*

Exact thing happeed to me years ago with my mates. From hazy ;-) memory of the time we saw a badge, or what looked like a badge to us at time 

We were never served a summons.

Legal experience aside but more "hands on experience", I would be very surprised if anything came of it.


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## Black Sheep

*Re: Court Summons....festival life!*

I know you have given only basic details but something about this doesn't add up. "He was an undercover member of the DS".  Did he show you any ID, badge, number and you gave him all your details!!!
Maybe this situation is not quiet as you appear to think it is


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## askU

*Re: Court Summons....festival life!*

this happened a friend of mine and he had attend a drug and alcohol awareness programme


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## ClubMan

*Re: Court Summons....festival life!*



Black Sheep said:


> I know you have given only basic details but something about this doesn't add up. "He was an undercover member of the DS".  Did he show you any ID, badge, number and you gave him all your details!!!
> Maybe this situation is not quiet as you appear to think it is


Or as _Vanilla _and _superdrog _put it earlier...



Vanilla said:


> LOL. Did he show you his 'badge'? I might be a bit cynical but don't hold your breath for the summons...





superdrog said:


> Exactly my thinking Vanilla , you were probably duped.


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## murphaph

*Re: Court Summons....festival life!*



Vanilla said:


> LOL. Did he show you his 'badge'? I might be a bit cynical but don't hold your breath for the summons...


My first thought too. Badge look like http://www.leehansen.com/clipart/Themes/Rodeo/images/sheriff.gif by any chance?


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## DavyJones

*Re: Court Summons....festival life!*

DS always work in pairs.


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## A_b

*Re: Court Summons....festival life!*

ha ha!! dying to hear how this one pans out. This is a typical festival joke. Never fails!!!


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## ClubMan

*Re: Court Summons....festival life!*

Maybe the original poster should report the alleged theft to the _Gardaí_?


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## Keek

*Re: Court Summons....festival life!*



DavyJones said:


> DS always work in pairs.



Yup there was two of them, both with valid badge in a wallet, a seperate Garda ID. And their wrist bands were Staff/Arena official bands, not just a regular camping/concert bands. They were the real deal. His Walkie Talkie fell outta his pocket when he was gettin his note book, It had a garda logo on the back of it.

The Garda pretty much told me in not so many words to ignore it. Obviously he can't say ignore it but he did say that the summons would only be sent once, they don't bother sending a 2nd time and gave a sly wink!!

Been told that when I get the summons, I can just go to the court office and pay the fine, and nothing would go down on the record, anybody care to shed some light?


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## murphaph

*Re: Court Summons....festival life!*

Did you get the Garda's name/number/station?


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## DavyJones

*Re: Court Summons....festival life!*



Keek said:


> Yup there was two of them, both with valid badge in a wallet, a seperate Garda ID. And their wrist bands were Staff/Arena official bands, not just a regular camping/concert bands. They were the real deal. His Walkie Talkie fell outta his pocket when he was gettin his note book, It had a garda logo on the back of it.
> 
> The Garda pretty much told me in not so many words to ignore it. Obviously he can't say ignore it but he did say that the summons would only be sent once, they don't bother sending a 2nd time and gave a sly wink!!
> 
> Been told that when I get the summons, I can just go to the court office and pay the fine, and nothing would go down on the record, anybody care to shed some light?



Defo shades then!
Are you sure you can assume so much from his demenour, after all you were probably stoned . Seriously, I think you have nothing to worry about. You won't have a "record" because of this.


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## Vanilla

*Re: Court Summons....festival life!*



ClubMan said:


> Maybe the original poster should report the alleged theft to the _Gardaí_?


 
Now _that_ I would like to see.


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## bond-007

*Re: Court Summons....festival life!*

They often tell people that there will be no summons and then out of the blue 6 months later a summons lands on the doormat. That's how they operate. 

Time to seek legal advice.


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## boisey

nothin much will happen,if its first offence more than likely you'll be handed an average fine.150 to 250 quid.told to behave yourself and that'll be it.


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## bond-007

Followed by years of grief when trying to enter the USA and various other nations.


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## ClubMan

*Re: Court Summons....festival life!*



Keek said:


> Yup there was two of them, both with valid badge in a wallet, a seperate Garda ID. And their wrist bands were Staff/Arena official bands, not just a regular camping/concert bands. They were the real deal. His Walkie Talkie fell outta his pocket when he was gettin his note book, It had a garda logo on the back of it.
> 
> The Garda pretty much told me in not so many words to ignore it. Obviously he can't say ignore it but he did say that the summons would only be sent once, they don't bother sending a 2nd time and gave a sly wink!!
> 
> Been told that when I get the summons, I can just go to the court office and pay the fine, and nothing would go down on the record, anybody care to shed some light?


Mustn't have been very good gear if you smoked it and still noticed all of those details. They probably did you a favour by taking it off you so.


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## Vanilla

If it really was the gardai, then you don't need to consult a solicitor now- all they will tell you to do is wait for the summons. At the court hearing, if it was a first offence, you have a chance that if your solicitor pleads on your behalf you will get the probation act which is a kind of first chance- it doesnt show as a criminal record and you won't have a problem travelling. But you really do need a solicitor to plead on your behalf to get this kind of verdict.

Before the summons arrives I've known people to plead their case directly to the guards and try to get them to let you off without a summons, I've never seen anyone succeed. Indeed sometimes it seems that if you do this in a case where they might not have bothered they definitely will. Justice must be done and be seen to be done and all that. One of the best things about the guards is that they are relatively immune to individuals pleading their case so everyone gets the same treatment.


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## ubiquitous

Vanilla said:


> One of the best things about the guards is that they are relatively immune to individuals pleading their case so everyone gets the same treatment.



Including themselves? 

You know the saying,... if you believe that, you'll believe anything...


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## Vanilla

ubiquitous said:


> Including themselves?
> 
> You know the saying,... if you believe that, you'll believe anything...


 
Hence the word 'relatively'.


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## Morley

What happens next?
this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnZb5wi_jsU
enjoy!!


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## z103

> Mustn't have been very good gear if you smoked it and still noticed all of those details.


Next time they might use a bong and get better value for money.


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## GoldWings

this happened to a friend of mine and he said: you'll get a summons by registered post in roughly 6 months time. postman will knock at the door - so if no-one there to sign your name...... 
if the letter is received, you'll have a court date alright - but you don't have to hire a solicitor - you can represent yourself. but if you are getting one, get one based in the town near where the festival was. you'll probably get a fine and have to do a drugs awareness  course and you'll more than likely get the probation act (not a record).


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## paddyjnr

boisey said:


> nothin much will happen,if its first offence more than likely you'll be handed an average fine.150 to 250 quid.told to behave yourself and that'll be it.


 And you wont be doing your Christmas shopping in NewYork next year!!!


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## mik_da_man

Not if they get the probation act - and as it was a relativley small amount i'd say that's what will happen. Once he gets a solicitor and dry cleans the suit


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## truthseeker

bond-007 said:


> Followed by years of grief when trying to enter the USA and various other nations.


 
Thats a bit morbid isnt it? Perhaps the OP has no interest in travelling to the US - plenty of people never do. Youre not missing much!

Also - the chances of him getting a drugs offence record and prevented from travelling are tiny! He will probably hear nothing or else just get the probation act.


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## csirl

> He sized about €50 worth of stock,


 
"Stock" indicates that the OP may be a dealer rather than a casual user, so maybe premature to assume will be probation. Would need to know what exact charges will be brought and whether the Gardai caught OP dealing.


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## JamesGG

That is the oldest Garda trick in the book "Give me it now and that'll be it"

Summons for 1) possesion
AND             2) possesion with intent to supply.

then again it is unlikey they were guards, I have never know gards to have vendor wristbands, and I know a lot of people who bring cuffs, torches, pens and notepads and take advantage of kids at these festivals. 

Learn from your mistakes!


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## DavyJones

JamesGG said:


> That is the oldest Garda trick in the book "Give me it now and that'll be it"
> 
> Summons for 1) possesion
> AND             2) possesion with intent to supply.
> 
> then again it is unlikey they were guards, I have never know gards to have vendor wristbands, and I know a lot of people who bring cuffs, torches, pens and notepads and take advantage of kids at these festivals.
> 
> Learn from your mistakes!



No chance of possesion with intent, If he only had a 50 bag. 
Also the word for weed,grass, doob,smoke,gear,stock etc changes yearly.it is no way indicates the OP is a dealer, certainly not with the amount involved. I'm not really down with the street talk anymore


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## truthseeker

DavyJones said:


> No chance of possesion with intent, If he only had a 50 bag.
> Also the word for weed,grass, doob,smoke,gear,stock etc changes yearly.it is no way indicates the OP is a dealer, certainly not with the amount involved. I'm not really down with the street talk anymore


 
Id agree with that DavyJones, 50 euro worth of "stock" is only enough for one person (passing the spliffs round etc..) for a weekend at a festival. Its not enough to be part of a supply chain.


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## monkeyface

A criminal conviction does not automatically preclude entry to the USA. The question asked when visiting the US is :


> "Have you ever been arrested or convicted for an offense or crime involving moral turpitude or a violation related to a controlled substance; or been arrested or convicted for two or more offenses for which the aggregate sentence to confinement was five years or more; or been controlled substance trafficker; or are you seeking entry to engage in criminal or immoral activities?"


 
Therefore, it depends entirely on whether the offence constituted "moral turpitude" i.e. fraud, larceny or an intent to harm persons or things. Some interesting examples: wilful tax evasion is a crime of moral turpitude but drunk or reckless driving or disorderly conduct is not; sodomy is but involuntary manslaughter is not. As far as I can gather controlled substance (including marijuana) is an offence that would preclude entry to the US other than by way of Visa.

http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/86942.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_turpitude

http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/86945.pdf (re controlled substance convictions incl marijuana)


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## DerUnkle

I would make sure you had legal representation as soon as you receive a summons. Myself and 2 friends were in the same situation several years ago. Out of the 3 of us only 1 got a summons, he turned up in court expecting a fine but the Nass court isn't that lenient and he recevied a record. He then had to get a solicitor go back to court and appeal to get the record overturned and it cost him 10k in fines + solicitor fees so be warned.


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## Seagull

*Re: Court Summons....festival life!*



Vanilla said:


> Now _that_ I would like to see.


There are some people that stupid.


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## bond-007

Very good.


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## JamesGG

DavyJones said:


> No chance of possesion with intent, If he only had a 50 bag.
> Also the word for weed,grass, doob,smoke,gear,stock etc changes yearly.it is no way indicates the OP is a dealer, certainly not with the amount involved. I'm not really down with the street talk anymore



they will throw enough mud hoping at least a bit will stick. Enough to pass spliffs is in gards opinion enough to "supply"!


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## DavyJones

If he gets convicted with intent I'll eat my PC. Its not what the Gardai think that matters It's what a judge will think.


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## Wexfordguy

Listen,its not the end of the world so dont panic.
You may or may not get a summons,tbh the cops have way more to be worrying about than people with 50 quids worth of smoke.
Dont dare approach a solicitor  untill you get a court date(IMO unlikely to happen).
If you do,try to bring about 150 quid in cash with you and offer to make a payment into the court poorbox.This will mean that you'll be dealt with under the probation of offenders act and you can walk free.
If you have no previous convictions,you'll
probably get the probation act anyway.
Most judges would be unwilling to impose a criminal conviction on an ordianry Joe for a bit of smoke.
I wouldnt worry about it,but just be more carefull about smoking in public.


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## Wexfordguy

JamesGG said:


> they will throw enough mud hoping at least a bit will stick. Enough to pass spliffs is in gards opinion enough to "supply"!


 
Rubbish.Intent to supply is a very serious charge.
In order to prove it they need to be able to prove it was more than the defendent could smoke or ingest in a reasonable time.
50 quid will get half an ounce of hash or a medium bag of weed,its a piffling amount and they would be aware of this.
IF he had half an ounce cut up into ten-euro deals THEN they could say he intended to sell it.


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## bond-007

Wexfordguy said:


> Listen,its not the end of the world so dont panic.
> You may or may not get a summons,tbh the cops have way more to be worrying about than people with 50 quids worth of smoke.
> Dont dare approach a solicitor  untill you get a court date(IMO unlikely to happen).
> If you do,try to bring about 150 quid in cash with you and offer to make a payment into the court poorbox.This will mean that you'll be dealt with under the probation of offenders act and you can walk free.
> If you have no previous convictions,you'll
> probably get the probation act anyway.
> Most judges would be unwilling to impose a criminal conviction on an ordianry Joe for a bit of smoke.
> I wouldnt worry about it,but just be more carefull about smoking in public.


You would not want to be before Portlaoise District Court on a possession charge. They have a special kind of justice in the Midlands.
Persons attending the electric picnic would be well advised to be aware of this.


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## Wexfordguy

bond-007 said:


> You would not want to be before Portlaoise District Court on a possession charge. They have a special kind of justice in the Midlands.


 
Regardless,the penalties are laid down in law,the penalties depend on whether it was summery conviction or conviction by indictment.Also the amounts involved and previous convictions if any.If you get a bad dose of "summary" justice you can lodge grounds for appeal and perhaps have any conviction overturned.


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## Deisce

Jaysus some of you civilians really don't have a clue. 50 quid is enough for one person for a day or two. I have friends who have been lifted at concerts and just got cautions on the spot. Especially when they plead that they need to travel with their jobs. We all work for a big american company with drug tests on entry ha ha.
I wouldn't worry about it. Like someone said if you get a good local solictor he will know judges and guards and may be able to advise you. Other than that you are in lap of gods.

I was doing alot worse at picnic but was a bit more careful. They give out giant skin packets in the goody bags handed out so its a bit rich picking people up for j's. I'd say you were blatantly doing it and it irritated them.


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## bond-007

> They give out giant skin packets in the goody bags handed out


Surely that is aiding and abetting a criminal offence?


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## dereko1969

depends on what is put into the skins, tobacco is not yet illegal so not aiding and abetting


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## bond-007

Maybe they would fall foul of the tobacco control regulations?


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## Bronte

Vanilla said:


> One of the best things about the guards is that they are relatively immune to individuals pleading their case so everyone gets the same treatment.


 Vanilla I'm LOL at this.  OP I imagine they confiscated so many drugs that day that they won't be bothered issuing summons', it was more a show of strength and a warning.  If they do issue a summons do not represent yourself (this is not a trivial matter), a good solicitor will be worth his weight in gold.


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## Keek

Hey Guys,

I just thought I'd give yis an up-date on my situation.

I got my Court Summons in this morning.

Now I got a new problem. Both surname and address is wrong.

Errors would be a 13 in stead of 3 with regards that address and the name was another surname altogher that sounds like my surname, for example, they called me Mr X Mongan instead of Mr X Mahon. _(Neither of the 2 examples are my real name or the name that appeared on the summons)_ 

The address is one thing that can be ammended in court on the day, but what about the wrong name? Has lady luck thought me a lesson or do I still need to get my suit drycleaned?

The summons is for me the post man delivered (registered post) to the proper address regardless of the wrong name and address. My Mum signed for it. _Cudda killed her!! Had to tell her it was concert tickets being delivered!!!!_ Lying to my mother, I deserve the book of the law being thrown at me!

Has any one of ye been in the same boat as me, wrong name and stuff on the summons, what happened in the end? Please share your experiences?


****Edit, in case ye were wondering, I'm being done for Possesion of a Controlled Substance and NOT Intent to supply, Thank God


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## JamesGG

Wrong name......hmmmm..... you could be onto a winner.


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## Pique318

Wong name, wrong address....if you get prosecuted as a result of that summons, then so could I !


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## ClubMan

Have you contacted a solicitor yet?


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## Guest106

DavyJones said:


> No chance of possesion with intent, If he only had a 50 bag.
> 
> DavyJones......you are wrong about the dealer advice.
> If he possesses more than he could use "immediately and personally" which is the interpretation followed by the courts based on the legislation, ( i.e. Sec 15 M.D.A. 1977) then he is regarded by construction of law as a dealer.
> 
> But he should do absolutely nothing until he hears further and hopefully he will not.


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## csirl

Usually the Judge will allow the case to proceed if there is a minor typo in the summons, if the recipient did receive it and it is clear that it can only be them.

If the summons is very wrong, there is always the possibility that the Gardai will investigate, get the correct details and re-issue the summons with the correct details. So does not necessarily eliminate the possibility of conviction.


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## bond-007

Unless it is a felony, they must reissue within 6 months of the alleged offence. As they are prosecuting by way of a summons in the district court it is not a felony.
It it was a felony they would go for the circuit court, and there is no time limit there.


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## Keek

Alright lads, spent the day looking up soliciors in the area, as I'm not from Naas, I didn't know which solicitors to look out for.

Been checking out local papers for court reports and looking up solicitors that do the "Criminal" sorta stuff, they all seem to be Property & Conveyancing, Family Law and Wills & Probate sorta stuff.

Have picked out 4 practises. So I'm gonna give them a ring in the morning and I'll keep ye posted. 

The few people I've told about this reckon that it'll be thrown out as it's a wrong name and not just a typo, but I'm waiting till after the court case to think about that, I'm cautious by nature! 

What sorta questions should I be asking them?


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## DavyJones

1John said:


> DavyJones said:
> 
> 
> 
> No chance of possesion with intent, If he only had a 50 bag.
> 
> DavyJones......you are wrong about the dealer advice.
> If he possesses more than he could use "immediately and personally" which is the interpretation followed by the courts based on the legislation, ( i.e. Sec 15 M.D.A. 1977) then he is regarded by construction of law as a dealer.
> 
> But he should do absolutely nothing until he hears further and hopefully he will not.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I beg to differ.
> I said no chance of a possesion with intent charge and I was right. He has received his summons, albeit to the wrong name and address. Nice one, the reefer gods are smiling down on OP.
Click to expand...


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## deadwood

Keek said:


> The summons is for me the post man delivered (registered post) to the proper address regardless of the wrong name and address. My Mum signed for it.


Mammy shouldn't be letting you out to concerts on your own. It's a good thing the guards found the gear before _she _did!

Get a solicitor on the job. (You could ask a solicitor you know/is recommended to put you in contact with a solicitor in the naas court area.)

Assuming you have no previous convictions, I wouldn't worry too much - _if _you're convicted. Penalties vary from judge to judge though.

How did the postman get the letter to you with a wrong name and address?


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## PaddyBloggit

Postmen are resourceful chappies (and lassies)!


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## extopia

Keek, get over yourself and get a good solicitor. If you don't know how to do this (and do it well), consider swallowing your pride and asking your parents for advice. I doubt your parents would be too shocked at having a son who smoked pot (just once, m'lud) in this day and age.

If you keep trying to play this out by yourself and get screwed in court, you've only yourself to blame.

The consequences of this are potentially very serious, depending on your level of ambition in the future.

So grow up, deal with it properly.


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## Keek

*extopia: *Cheers for the advice, sounded very patronising, but serious advice.

Don't worry, I' not some kid living a home, I gave him the address on my drivers licence which was my home address I'm alot older than you think I am!!! Parents are a bit of a drive away!

I will be getting onto a solicitor tomorrow morning as planned. Which means I'll be getting professional advice from now on folks.

G'Nite, G'luck... and wish me luck!

Mods feel free to lock this one up.  (The thread, that is.. Not me!)


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## Guest106

DavyJones said:


> 1John said:
> 
> 
> 
> I beg to differ.
> I said no chance of a possesion with intent charge and I was right. He has received his summons, albeit to the wrong name and address. Nice one, the reefer gods are smiling down on OP.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DavyJones
> You said 'no chance' of possession with intent charge.  Well there was every chance of such a charge.  You could have only one reefer and sell it which immediately would make you a dealer.
> The Gardai decided to lay the 'possession only' charge but could have laid the other charge.  There is a very long and tedious explanation in regard to the considerations to be taken on board when deciding the mode of prosecution and I'm not going to bore the pants off everybody by going into it here.  Some idea of what's involved could be gleaned by having a scan via Google using the term "de jure versus de facto".  A very rough explanation for this would be this: " what the law lays down versus what actually happens".
> As a matter of pure convenience and very much because of the prevalance of drug usage and the proliferation of possession offences, a high percentage of drug cases are dealt with via the Sec 3 MDA route (possession only) as opposed to the Sec 15 MDA charge (possession for sale/supply) even though a Sec 15 charge could be made.
> 
> Bond-007
> There are no felonies under the MDA Acts only offences with the DPP electing for mode of disposal in regard to summary prosecution versus trial on indictment in the Circuit Court.
Click to expand...


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## McCrack

1John

There are no felonies full stop, these were abolished by the Criminal Law Act 1997 as were misdemeanours, it's summary or indictable disposal.

I also absolutely disagree with you saying a S15 chrage could be laid for possession of one joint, that's absolutely ridiculas. Whilst there is no quantum laid down by the legislature as to what is a S3 or S15 common sense would say that a small bit of weed/hash (or any controlled drug) could and would not constitute sale/supply.


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## Guest106

McCrack said:


> 1John
> 
> There are no felonies full stop, these were abolished by the Criminal Law Act 1997 as were misdemeanours, it's summary or indictable disposal.
> 
> I also absolutely disagree with you saying a S15 chrage could be laid for possession of one joint, that's absolutely ridiculas. Whilst there is no quantum laid down by the legislature as to what is a S3 or S15 common sense would say that a small bit of weed/hash (or any controlled drug) could and would not constitute sale/supply.



McCrack
My position on the nonexistence of felonies is quite clear as stated by me in relation to the matter under discussion.  See my last comment to Bond-007.

As regards the drug quantity that qualifies for a Sec 15 (sale/supply) charge, there is no specific quantification specified under the legislation in regard to any particular quantity of illicit drugs nor could there be.  A great deal of discretion is allowed the judiciary in administering the law at the hearing of these cases.

In that regard there are two crucial points to be made:
(1) Sec 15 sub.sec (2) MDA 1977 makes reference to quantity but does not specify amount and then makes a second point for the guidance of judges allowing that the court may take into account  'such other matter as the court may consider relevant'.........end of quote.

Now what might that be ?   Well consider this:  If I had a spamspamspam cigarette (one only) and sold it to you  and we were detected then what offence (a) did I commit and (b) did you commit ?  The answer is contained in Sec 15 (2) above.
Having said that I would like to acknowledge this much, that if the persons detected were low level or first time offenders then nobody would quarrel with a Sec 3 (poss only) charge and in the real world that is what would probably happen ( Read up on 'de facto - de jure' for further clarification on this reasoning).  On the other hand if the participants were targeted criminals then the Sec 15 (sale/supply) could be considered and may even be laid.  I'll give you this absolute assurance, that career criminals in this jurisdiction have from time to time been charged with Sec 15 in circumstances where smaller fry would have been disposed of via Sec 3.

The legislation concerned needs to be carefully examined and thought through as it is cumbersome and frequently found to be confusing by those who may not be familiar with legal phraseology.  That's how lawyers make their money tho' so no quarrel from that quarter.


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## McCrack

Much of what you say is correct but again I'll reiterate that a S15 (sale/supply) is only applicable when a person sells or supplies for commercial gain, passing a joint to another person or dishing out some coke at a party etc will not come under this.

The authorities will look at the volume of the drug and the circumstances of its detection to decide whether it's simple possession or sale/supply.
Out of the two it normally boils down to the street value which determines which charge will be preferred. 

Now your point saying that known criminals with previous for drug offences found with a small amount of a controlled drug a S15 would be laid is not correct.
A Judge (or Jury) cannot know or take into any consideration an accused's history or previous convictions at any time up until the acquittal or conviction, these only become relevant when a Judge is considering sentence...innocent until proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt, trial in due course of law and all that.
If a S15 charge was laid (which it never would) on a person (hardened criminal or otherwise) who had possession of a small amount of a controlled drug it simply would not stick.


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## Guest106

McCrack
I note what you say but am of the view that a lot of what you offer is flawed.  Take for example your point about about 'commercial gain' which by the way is quite novel in that you are adding to the mix something that is not mentioned or alluded to in the legislation at all.  If I interpret you correctly you seem to be saying that a Sec 15 MDA charge MUST be tied to a largish quantity of the drug and I say NO to that proposition.  I allow that Sec 15 charges are usually related to the larger quantities but I am insisting that there are circumstances in which a small quantity of the drug could still attract the sale/supply charge.

Consider this scenario.  Just think of someone who has died as the result of having ingested a controlled drug (not too difficult, I think you'll agree) and if the supplier in that case were to be identified and there was evidence of a single supply only, then which charge (simple possession or sale/supply) would be entirely appropriate in those circumstances ? 

Also, I think you misunderstand me in regard to the reference to 'career criminals'.  I was referring to the considerations of the prosecutor (DPP) in deciding to lay a charge and would point out that the prosecutor will in countless instances be privy to information that has a persuasive value in the pre-charge situation but which will never get an airing during the trial.
As proof of this, I would out that many primary charges are accompanied by secondary charges that do not result in a conviction because the evidence at the hearing does not serve to convince the Judge or jury to the appropriate degree yet the charge(s) were still laid in the first instance.  

Furthermore, in a small but important number of cases  convictions have been obtained in sale/supply cases where merely traces of the drug(s) were found yet the evidence was good enough to convince the court. Such cases are fraught with difficulty and there would have been a strong reliance in them on the 'such other matter as the court may consider relevant' provision of Sec 15(2) MDA as alluded to in an earlier post.


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## Keek

Thought I'd give yis another update, and actually finish off this thread, no doubt there will be some body this time next year reading this thread wondering about the same things I was.

I appeared in court yesterday, was a pain in the This post will be deleted if not edited to remove bad language, waiting around for hours and I was no more than 45 secs in front of the judge when I eventually got called. I had a solicitor lined up well before the court date. You can get a solicitor on the day itself in the courthouse but I'd say get one before you get to court. My mate who got a solicitor on the day was charged €250, if you arrange it before hand like I did, you get the solicitor for €180.

Solicitor advised not to try get the case trown out because of the errors on the summons because all they had to do was change the details and I would be called for another date which would be not worth the effort, why delay the pain. I'm sure if it was a qoute day in court without a couple hundred people up for the same things they would have tried to get it thrown out.

Was fined €1,300 and got the probation act so record in still clean. Was happy enough as long as I wasn't convicted. And any way, the probation act is in the wrong name so if I was to get caught again, this probation will not show up. Still though, 2 weeks wages down the toilet. Some GAA club in Naas is getting a fresh supply of Lucozade, on me!!

All people who got caught with Spliff got probation act and a Minimum fine was 1,000, fine gets bigger with the quantitly that you are caught with.

Anyone who had something other than a spliff got a conviction was fined alot more.

6,368 views, I feel so popular!!!


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## allthedoyles

Well I believe they got the wrong guy here .......They need to look out for the suppliers


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## PaddyBloggit

Glad you survived it Keek!


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## bond-007

€1300 for a simple possession was very severe.


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## eggerb

Glad to hear it worked out in the end (allbeit, you are down a good few bob!). Thanks for posting an update. A lot of non regular posters, post for advice and never let those who contributed to the thread know the final outcome.


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## mathepac

Keek said:


> ...And any way, the probation act is in the wrong name so if I was to *get caught again*, this probation will not show up. ...


Lessons not learned then?


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## Caveat

bond-007 said:


> €1300 for a simple possession was very severe.


 
I was thinking that myself.  Difficult to compare "crimes" sometimes but to add perspective, you may not even receive this for a violent assault for example.


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## tyrekicker

Keek said:


> ...no doubt there will be some body this time next year reading this thread wondering about the same things I was.


 
Thanks for sharing Keek, ...this thread will no doubt help the next poor unfortunate who has their festival ruined by the shades...


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## DavyJones

€1300, thats crazy.


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## truthseeker

A very expensive spliff.


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## bond-007

Now had it been Deco and the lads from the council estate they would have gotten away with a €50 fine.


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