# My liabilities on a house willed to both of us.



## Snowdrift (27 Jun 2012)

Hi All,

New poster here, hoping that you may be able to offer advice on the following predicament.

Myself and my sister were willed our parents house following the death of our mother.
We’re joint executers of the will and probate and all other relative paperwork has been completed thankfully. 
I’m currently married myself and living a couple of hundred miles away from this house and have no intention of ever living there. My sister on the other hand is single and renting so has decided to move into the house, as I suppose she’s entitled to. I have no issue with this but I am a little concerned that I’ll still be liable for half the household charge, water charges, septic tank changes as well as being liable to pay this €200 charge for owned a second home. 
Can I get my solicitor to draw up something that would pass liability for all these expenses onto my sister as she’s living in the house? 
Also could I actually sign over “living rights” of the house to my sister with a stipulation that the property cannot be sold or rented out without my agreement?


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## Brendan Burgess (27 Jun 2012)

As the tenant, your sister should pay all these charges, although you are legally liable for them.

As the tenant, your sister should pay you rent for half of the house.

Alternatively, she should buy your half of the house from you. If  she doesn't have the money, you could issue her with a mortgage for the money she owes you. 

She would then owe you the money and you would have absolutely no liability for the costs associated with the house.

Brendan


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## Snowdrift (27 Jun 2012)

Thanks for your reply Brendan but I don't understand what you mean by "you could issue her with a mortgage for the money she owes you."  How could this be done?
Do you mean have a solicitor draft up an agreement where by she pays me half the current market value of the house over X number of years?  If this is what your getting at then would it not get very messy if she couldn't make repayments?


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## Brendan Burgess (27 Jun 2012)

You sell her the house for €100k, say. 
Now she owes you €100k, so all the worries you have over ownership have now disappeared. 
You can charge her interest or not as you see fit. 
You can agree the terms of payment as you see fit. 

Brendan


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## Snowdrift (27 Jun 2012)

Okay thanks for clarifying that Brendan.  Think that suggestion would need to be fleshed out with a solicitor in detail... 
Would love to hear if anyone else has any suggestions?


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## Black Sheep (27 Jun 2012)

As your sister has moved into the she no longer has rent to pay so should she not be paying at least some rent to you to cover your expenses and more. 
I also do not understand why you have allowed her to move in without drawing up an agreement. I can't see how she has a "right" to move in.

*"so has decided to move into the house, as I suppose she’s entitled to"*

 It appears to me that she got a lot more than her share of the house while you get nothing but the expenses, You need to have a serious talk with your sister


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## SarahMc (27 Jun 2012)

Black Sheep said:


> It appears to me that she got a lot more than her share of the house while you get nothing but the expenses, You need to have a serious talk with your sister


 
I agree, I think now whilst relationships are amenable, and before she gets too comfortable is the time for the conversation. Even if she sees this as only a temporary measure she should still discharge you of all expenses and pay even a token amount of rent.


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## burmo (28 Jun 2012)

Agreed. I've seen so many situations on this website like this turn nasty. Decide now, it would be the easiest thing for you to sell the house and split the money. And then if she decides to offer to buy your half that is what you can consider. If she is living there and stops paying rent due to any reason you will have a nightmare and resentment.


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## Snowdrift (28 Jun 2012)

Okay guys thanks for the replies.  On Brendans point regarding mortgage - what if she doesn't agree to this and refusues to sign up to any repayment scheme.
On the point of rent - can't see how she would have to pay rent on a property that she half owns?


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## Brendan Burgess (28 Jun 2012)

Then just insist on selling the house. 

You may have to go to the Court to get such an order though.

Brendan


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## huskerdu (28 Jun 2012)

Snowdrift said:


> On the point of rent - can't see how she would have to pay rent on a property that she half owns?



She only owns half the house, so she owes rent for the other half. 

The options are

1) you sell the house and split the money
2) You sell half the house to her
3) you allow her to live in the house and pay you rent ( or cover all household expenses in lieu of rent) 

If you and your sister disagree on which option is right, you can force a sale through a court order. 

It sounds like she is your only living close relative, and she will be your sister for the rest of your life and you most likely do not want to cause a row, which is a good thing. 

You and her need to sit down and draw up an agreement that she is renting the house from you, she pays the household expenses in lieu of rent and agree what happens in the future. 

You still own half the house and have rights to decide what happens in the future. 

What happens if she marries, or her boyfriend moves in ?
What happens if you lose your job and need the money ?
What happens if she moves out and rents it to her friends ?
What happens if she sublets a bedroom to someone ?
What happens if she is bad at getting things fixed and house is in bad condition ?
What happens if the roof needs to be replaced and she cant afford it ?

If you talk about things now, they are less likely to cause a row in the future, which is more important than whether you have to pay half the household charge.


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## putsch (28 Jun 2012)

Honestly OP you do sound very unaware of your options..............you need to be really firm and clear about what you are entitled to and what you want. Go and see a solicitor to get objective advice. Otherwise I can only see this descending into disaster!


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## Slim (28 Jun 2012)

No matter what way you look at it, unless you want to gift your sister half the house and that is your right, she needs to be paying you something.

Taking some assumptions: If the house is worth €200k, your half is obviously worth €100k! No challenge there. If sis was to remain renting at her current address, I assume she pays c.€400 per month. If you agree she buys you out at 0% interest over 20 years, she might pay you €417 per month to pay back €100k. If she rents the house off you, then the rent would probably be close to this amount as well and she would be liable for water, septic tank etc.

The idea that she can save rent by moving into the house only works if she is, in effect, downsizing from a more expensive/valuable property to your parents' home. In other words, there is no free lunch. If you were willing to accept €100k for the share in the house, you are better to get that now than accept a rent for years that is declining in real value rapidly over time. Might be best not to be your sister's landlord.


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## Eithneangela (28 Jun 2012)

+1 to all of the advice given. I've just come out of a situation where I was executor for my Mam's estate, the only asset being the family home. 9 of us, 1 brother living in the house. He did not maintain it, even to a minimum standard. I went to sell the house, had to pay a team of people a lot of money to clean out the place, dump a lot of stuff left lying around by my brother (he's a builder so you can imagine the stuff that was left lying around), got it all painted and carpeted ready for resale, and eventually sold it. However, no communication with my brother since (he seems to think I sold 'his' home), so left with bad blood in family, which is awful. So, please act forcefully, and act now!!


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## Snowdrift (28 Jun 2012)

Thanks everyone for the replies, much appreciated.  It does seem the best idea is for her to buy out my half of the house and given the current property market and the fact she is my sister, I could accept a very reasonable amount to sell my half.  However, she's single and only earning about €22k a year so don't think a bank would look at her for a mortgage.  May have to look at Brendan's suggestion of issueing a mortgage myself and hope that we don't run into trouble if she's unable to meet monthly repayments at any stage.  I guess a solicitor drawing up an agreement would have to have that point covered.


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## beffers (28 Jun 2012)

Wow. Tricky situation OP, I don't envy you. So many things to consider. Doing what is best for you financially, but not jeopardizing your long term relationship with your sister is not an easy task. Agree with everyone else that if your your sister lives in the house, she needs to be paying you something monthly. If you have your own home, I presume that you have rent or mortgage payments of your own. Why should one of you live rent free, but one of you doesn't? That's not fair.

Have you spoken to your sister about anything financial yet? Has she brought it up at all? If she hasn't, and she feels that she has an automatic entitlement to move into the house and live there without any sort of recompense for you, you need to nip that in the bud sooner rather than later.


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## burmo (28 Jun 2012)

Having a loan of that amount between a family member will be really difficult to manage... it could cause so much tension if she's late paying, get's injured or made redundant, etc. I think the best for you would be to act now and get the house sold and try to put it in a positive light to her that she will end with xxx euros to spend as she wishes.


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## Snowdrift (29 Jun 2012)

Yeah, I agree with beffers, it is a tricky situation!!
And yes burmo, you too are correct.  I would be hesitant about having a loan of that amount between family.  
Just so to think of all scenarios - could I gift my half of the house to her and what would be the implications of that?  Selling the property is not something I'm keen to push as I know my sister has a real attachment to the place.  Or, is there a way I could sign living rights for the property over to her with a stipulation that if it's ever sold, half the value would come to me?


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## Snowdrift (27 Jul 2012)

Hi All, Just said I'd update you all on the situation and how it has deteriorated over the past while.  After traveling to meet my sister and trying to sort the situation out, the relationship has broken down completely.  I've been told in no uncertain terms where to go and that while she owns half the house, nothing will be done without her agreement.  I've ended up having to refer the matter to my solicitor who has written to her giving my sister the option of buying out my share of the house or if not, getting a court order to have the house told.  He's given her 6 weeks to provide a letter showing mortgage approval otherwise we go to court to have the house sold.  Can't believe how my sister has acted in this situation.  Let others be warned, thread carefully when willed property with siblings.....


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## Padraigb (27 Jul 2012)

Ouch! Sorry it went so badly for you.


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## Snowdrift (31 Aug 2012)

Hi All - I have a bit of a follow up on this story and wanted to get some advice.  Sister has ignored letter from solicitor and it now looks like I'll have to take her to court in order to get an order for the property to be sold.  However, I've been aproached my someone familiar with the property who is willing to purchase my interest for a sum that I'm happy to accept.  My question is, can I simply sell my half of the property to this person and let them deal however they see fit with my sister?  Any advice would be welcomed.  Thanks.


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## Harry31 (31 Aug 2012)

I'm involved in a shared ownership of a house it's been going on 15 years & is a nightmare - people moaning about costs/work to be done etc. It's generally left up to 1 person to do the basic maintenance & it's unfair, frustrating and annoying, but if it isn't done the house would fall to bits. If I had a chance I'd sell it & get rid, it costs a fortune just to keep the place heated (has to be done otherwise it'd get damp as it's an old house & nobody living in it permanently).  If you can sell I'd advise do so & get rid!  Relationships go down hill quickly when shared houses involved! Sorry I can't give advice but wish you the best of luck


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## STEINER (31 Aug 2012)

Snowdrift said:


> Hi All - I have a bit of a follow up on this story and wanted to get some advice.  Sister has ignored letter from solicitor and it now looks like I'll have to take her to court in order to get an order for the property to be sold.  However, I've been aproached my someone familiar with the property who is willing to purchase my interest for a sum that I'm happy to accept.  My question is, can I simply sell my half of the property to this person and let them deal however they see fit with my sister?  Any advice would be welcomed.  Thanks.



I think you can sell your half to whoever you please.


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## huskerdu (31 Aug 2012)

Snowdrift said:


> Hi All - I have a bit of a follow up on this story and wanted to get some advice.  Sister has ignored letter from solicitor and it now looks like I'll have to take her to court in order to get an order for the property to be sold.  However, I've been aproached my someone familiar with the property who is willing to purchase my interest for a sum that I'm happy to accept.  My question is, can I simply sell my half of the property to this person and let them deal however they see fit with my sister?  Any advice would be welcomed.  Thanks.




You will have to ask your solicitor for more details on the ownership of the house. 

There are different legal ways of jointly owning a house. 
Here is a website that explains the differences. ( I am not involved in this website, I found it by googling, but it seems to explain the issues)
http://www.lawyer.ie/property/tenancies

If you are "joint tenants" , then you both jointly own the whole house, you dont own half of it to sell.  (in the same way that if you and your spouse own a house, you cant sell your half to someone else).


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## Snowdrift (31 Aug 2012)

Thanks very much for the replies guys.  Would I not be correct in saying though that if my sister could buy out my share in the house ,(in other words I'd be selling my half to her)then I would be equally entitled to sell my share to another interested party?


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## huskerdu (31 Aug 2012)

Snowdrift said:


> Thanks very much for the replies guys.  Would I not be correct in saying though that if my sister could buy out my share in the house ,(in other words I'd be selling my half to her)then I would be equally entitled to sell my share to another interested party?




No, it is not as simple as that. 

You either own the house as joint tenants or tenants in common. 

In either case, she can buy your share, as you are both agreeing to the deal, 

If you own the house as joint tenants, you cannot sell your share without her legally agreeing to it. This is a complete simplification of the situation and I am not a lawyer, so you need to know what the ownership situation is and you need proper legal advice from a lawyer who has seen the deeds of the house,


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## Snowdrift (3 Sep 2012)

Thanks so much for the replies, I really appreciate it.
Is there any logic to holding off pushing for a court order for sale?  
Some friends have advised that no matter how long my sister remains in the house, I can get a court order for sale at any stage.  They advised it may be more prudent to continue to pay NPPR charges and then if/should the property market pick up and/or I myself have real need for my share of the house then proceed with a court order for sale. As such, I'd be treating the property as an investment (albeit a risky one, given the situation) What would you guys think of that situation?


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## Firefly (3 Sep 2012)

Hi Snowdrift,

Sorry to hear about your problems!

Organising a mortgage with your sister will lead IMO to all sorts of trouble, particularly if relations are not good to begin with. Also if she cannot secure a mortage now from a bank, what makes you think you'll ever get the full repayments for her? What happens if the euro collapses? What happens if interest rates rocket and your own mortgage repayments shoot up leaving her a handy low rate? To many complications for me.

As regards trying to play it cute and hold out for when property picks up in value - the phrase "A bird in the hand" comes to mind. I'd be taking the money and running. By all means re-invest in property if you wish, but then you get to decide what/where to buy and to whom you rent it to.

If your sister does come up with the readies to buy your half, then unless ye both get it right (unlikely) then one of you will lose out on the price agreed vs what the house would fetch on the open market. It sounds to me, based on your earlier posts, that you'd be happy with a lesser amount. This sounds OK until you realise that you are giving your sister money belonging to you. Should property prices fall further then be prepared for endless moaning about how you fleeced her. If prices rise, things will be quiet. 

If your sister plays hardball and doesn't want to sell then I would advise her that you'll be moving into the house also (spend a few weekends in a row there and bring some mates). 

I would also remind your sister that any legal fees would be settled from the proceeds and that in these times there are plenty solicitors looking for work 

Finally, I would push selling the house as the only option if I were in your situation. 

Firefly.


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## Snowdrift (3 Sep 2012)

Thanks Firefly,

I'm afraid moving into the house with some friends at weekends is out of the question.  I guess my real problem is going to court.  I hate the thoughts that I have to drag the family name through the courts in order to have the house sold.


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## Firefly (3 Sep 2012)

Snowdrift said:


> Thanks Firefly,
> 
> I'm afraid moving into the house with some friends at weekends is out of the question. I guess my real problem is going to court. I hate the thoughts that I have to drag the family name through the courts in order to have the house sold.


 
That would certainly be unfortunate, but I would imagine it would be more difficult for your sister as she is living there. Still, I suppose she could put a spin/slant on the story seeing as you're not there to defend yourself. If it were me though I would push on with the sale. Short term pain and all that. 

I don't think anybody would find it unreasonable that you are only making sure you get what you have been left either.

Good luck!
F


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## Bronte (4 Sep 2012)

Snowdrift said:


> I'm afraid moving into the house with some friends at weekends is out of the question. I guess my real problem is going to court. I hate the thoughts that I have to drag the family name through the courts in order to have the house sold.


 
I think this is the wrong way to view it.  Do you want a solution,  if yes be legit and go the legal route. No shame in this.  In any case most people when they get a court date suddently wake up and settle.   Until you do this it seems based on your posts that your sister will not treat you seriously.  

I'm all for reasonable family compromises, including selling your half share for a bit less than it's value, but if that gets you no where then you have to be decisive. 

If you don't want this resolved then what you proposed about holding onto it as an 'investment' sounds like an ideal protracted family battle. Which will end in blood sweat and tears and a family forever divided.


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