# Chiropractor, osteopath, physio, or thai masseuse?



## Birdsall (14 Dec 2004)

My back is buggered and causing me quite a lot of grief. Local muscular pain like a shiving just under the shoulder blade when I bend down or roll over in bed. (No, it's not my wife.) Can anyone give me a clue as to which of the above flavours of back-quackery might be the best bet for some relief? Better yet a name of someone in Dublin. Happy ending not essential.


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## stobear (14 Dec 2004)

[broken link removed]


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## Birdsall (14 Dec 2004)

*.*

Thanks but that looks like a torture device.


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## stobear (14 Dec 2004)

*Re: .*

Actually this thing has saved me hundreds of euro on visit to various other 'treatments'.


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## wavejumper (15 Dec 2004)

*pain*

i can personally vouch for chiropractor, it is painless, immediate relief...if you listen to them you will have to kepp on going there forever...i'd go for for maybe...10 sessions.  after that you might as well take charge by finding out what causes the back pain and take corrective action by:

not doing what causes the problem.

go to a physiotherapist or better a yoga class and learn how to do regular excersises that relax the back.

only take painkillers to suppress a particular painful event, do not make it a habit. avoid altogether unless you really need it.

the chiropractor i went to is called advanced chiropractor, they are near ballsbridge, you'll find them on the yellow pages.

good luck.


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## ClubMan (15 Dec 2004)

*Re: pain*

Are there any statutory or non-statutory regulatory authorities in _Ireland_ for the types of treatment mentioned above?


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## Birdsall (15 Dec 2004)

*Re: pain*

Thanks for the feedback. I am still none the wiser as to the relative expertise of these professions. Isn't a chiropractor a spine cracker? My grief is sourced nowhere near my spine.....

How much does 10 (!) visits to Adv.Ch. cost? 

Stobear's contraption is looking like the cheap option I think. 

PS. Painkillers are great, I won't hear a word against them.


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## Murt10 (15 Dec 2004)

I went to a chiropractor, Joe Mc Grath Bsc DC MCC MBAAC in the Rathmines Chiropractic Centre, Guilstan Terrace, Rathmines Dublin 6 last year (Ph 4979273). 

The initial visit was E50 and it was E40 after that. The treatment is painless and it worked for me.


Murt


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## Marie (15 Dec 2004)

afaik "chiropractor" is another name for osteopath.  Osteopaths are highly-trained (4 years full-time, 5 part-time here in UK) and regulated and only practice after extensive training in anatomy and neurology.  I used to make welded-steel sculptures.  Imagine what that did to the spine of a 5'4" woman hefting I-beam sections round a studio 10 hours a day?  My osteopath in London used to have me straight again in two treatments on the frequent occasions when I was carried there (no exaggeration).

Though I now live 70 miles north-east of London I recently started another course of treatments.......this time for chronic back stress gathered over years in an emotionally-pressured environment.  This chronic complaint......which caused stiff painful hips, knees, ankles, wrists, lower back, combined with the fact I'm 15 years older......is taking longer.  

It is a costly treatment and the length depends on whether its chronic or acute (yours sounds acute, therefore quite quickly resolved).  In my experience it does work.  I am so impressed I'm contemplating undertaking the training myself to have a new skill to move forward with when I retire from present work in 3 years time.

Google to find out more as there are "national" trainings in most countries (but not, I think, yet in Ireland!).

Physiotherapy?  I've been referred on one occasion by my G.P. after a road traffic accident.  It's NHS.  I didn't see the same practitioner twice in a row.  None of the three people who manipulated me (and that's what it felt like!!!) seemed to give a toss how much pain, or what results.  I did not find the experience useful or illuminating and only three sessions were available after a month-long wait.

That's my tuppence worth.  Never ignore back pain.  It doesn't sort itself and may be serious.


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## ClubMan (15 Dec 2004)

*afaik "chiropractor" is another name for osteopath. Osteopaths are highly-trained (4 years full-time, 5 part-time here in UK) and regulated and only practice after extensive training in anatomy and neurology.*

I thought that chiropractors and osteopaths were different? Who regulates each of these? I don't doubt that these and others do training - I'm just wondering what sort of professional oversight applies to these areas.


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## Marie (15 Dec 2004)

Clubman, is this helpful (from the British Association of Osteopathy website - www.osteopathy.org.uk)

*Is osteopathy regulated? 
The Statutory Register of the General Osteopathic Council (GOsC) opened on 9 May 1998. The title "osteopath" became protected by law from 9 May 2000 when the transitional registration period ended. As a result it is a criminal offence, liable to prosecution, to describe oneself as an osteopath in the UK unless registered with the GOsC.

The GOsC regulates, promotes and develops the profession of osteopathy, maintaining a Statutory Register of those entitled to practise osteopathy. Only practitioners meeting the high standards of safety and competency are eligible to join this register. Proof of good health, good character and professional indemnity insurance cover is also a requirement.

What qualifications do osteopaths have? 
Osteopaths undertake four to five-year honours degree programmes underpinned by thorough clinical training.
* 

My own osteopath (whom I undertake a 4 hour round trip to London each week to see - there's a vote of confidence!) has practised for 35 years.  He is "an osteopath".  I've encountered geezers who did basic osteopathy training but offer all kinds of airy-fairy cranial whatsits and mumbo-jumbo and I would avoid them like the plague!

As with builders, doctors, accountants, therapists - there are some brilliant practitioners, some absolute duds, and most come somewhere in between.  I'm fortunate to have found someone exceptional.


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## Marie (15 Dec 2004)

That URL does work if you make sure to omit the ")" on the end!  The "Find an Osteopath" section lists 15 practitioners in Dublin


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## ClubMan (15 Dec 2004)

Thanks but I was wondering specifically about regulation/oversight in _Ireland_. I'm just a bit wary of professions which are not adequately regulated leaving open the possibility of quacks and charlatans setting up in business. What sort of professional qualification/certification should one look for in relation to practitioners of these professions?


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## sherman (15 Dec 2004)

I once asked my doctor to recommend a chiropractor.

He said he only knew of ONE good one and she had moved abroad by the time I asked him. He said he would be very reluctant to send me to another.

AFAIK chiropractors are unregulated and don't need medical (Irish recognised) qualifications.


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## ClubMan (16 Dec 2004)

*AFAIK chiropractors are unregulated and don't need medical (Irish recognised) qualifications. *

That is what I suspected but I am open to correction. I'm not saying that there are not good ones out there but without proper regulation/supervision/certification one could be getting a pig in a poke...


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## Elisabeth (16 Dec 2004)

Hi there,

I've been having problems with my lower back, shoulders and neck for years on end the only thing that works for me is acupuncture and lately Osteopathy. I have been seeing one since September and for the first time in years I'm painfree even when I'm under extreme stress. 
Have been to a few chiropractors but only got short term relief. An Osteopath concentrates on the whole body whereas in my experience Chiropractors work on the area where the pain is. That area is not necessarily the source of the pain though. 
I can only recommend Osteopathy then again have only been to one who was recommended to me. He is great.
E.


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## Marie (17 Dec 2004)

ClubMan - the basic qualification is BSc degree and they _must_ be State Registered to practice.  That applies to Ireland, too!  Some of the 8 training institutes in the UK are university based e.g. Middlesex.  As a PAM myself (Profession Allied to Medicine) I always introduce myself to a new patient by reciting my qualifications and State Registration and recommend this as a matter of course.  I agree with you - there are a lot of charlatains around who have read a couple of books or done an evening class........scary!

The General Osteopathic Council website lists 13 practitioners in Dublin.  Implicitly they must be qualified/State Registered to be on the GOC register.


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## Birdsall (17 Dec 2004)

I think I'll find one of the 13 and give them a try.
Thanks for the help.

The whole topic reminds me of a Sopranos (??) episode when somebody is told by the physio the Jets use that nobody knows anything when it somes to backs.


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## rainyday (17 Dec 2004)

> The General Osteopathic Council website lists 13 practitioners in Dublin. Implicitly they must be qualified/State Registered to be on the GOC register.


This is a UK-body, right? There is no Irish state registration for osteopaths, afaik?

Does the UK state registration offer any protections to the patient? Is there a regulatory environment that goes along with registration?

I would be cautious about osteopaths/chiropractors. I'd be inclined to fully exhaust standard medical channels (GP, specialist, physio) as a first priority.


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## Marie (18 Dec 2004)

Rainy - as you see from the excerpt from my post above on the General Osteopathic Council website, anyone (wherever they live!) is committing a criminal offence if they practice as an osteopath _unless trained by an accredited training institute and State Registered!_  This applies to _all_ state-regulated professions including art psychotherapists, who train in one of the 6 training institutes here (all offered within established universities) and then go off to/return to various other parts of the globe to set up as private practitioners.  Any complaint against me by a patient to my professional body is automatically investigated.  If it has foundation I am _struck off the register_.  If I continue to practice without State Registration...........or even if I allow my State Registration _to lapse_ - I am in breach of the law.

Of course this doesn't mean that charletans don't offer services to people in pain and some of them do damage.  _That's why there is State Registration and accredited trainings!_  So these people haven't a leg to stand on.

I'm not involved in the osteopathic profession apart from my own very positive experience.  The important point is that if a person has back problems (statistically 1 in 5 people do!!!!) there is an established reputable treatment.........so long as you make sure you've gone to the right shop and not bought from a street-vendor.


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## rainyday (18 Dec 2004)

> anyone (wherever they live!) is committing a criminal offence if they practice as an osteopath unless trained by an accredited training institute and State Registered!



Hi Marie - Unless I'm missing something really obvious, the text you quote from the website above specifically relates to practicing in the UK only, i.e. 



> As a result it is a criminal offence, liable to prosecution, to describe oneself as an osteopath *in the UK* unless registered with the GOsC.



So it has little real relevance for Irish osteopaths or their patients. There is nothing to stop me starting up an osteopathy practice here in Dublin tomorrow -  or am I missing something?


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## sueellen (18 Dec 2004)

"PS. Painkillers are great, I won't hear a word against them"

Be very careful about using painkillers as they can lead on to stomach problems.

I have also suffered with my back down thru the years and a friend gave me this advice because he found out too late about the stomach problems that they cause.


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## Marie (18 Dec 2004)

_*Hi Marie - Unless I'm missing something really obvious, the text you quote from the website above specifically relates to practicing in the UK only, i.e. 

Quote:
As a result it is a criminal offence, liable to prosecution, to describe oneself as an osteopath in the UK unless registered with the GOsC.*_

Rainy - It must be my lack of clarity and I'm puzzled as to what is so puzzling.  A reservation and anxiety was initially expressed initially by ClubMan and now by yourself in your recent posts, around how to distinguish a qualified from an unqualified osteopath.   Osteopathy is a State Registered profession with  accredited trainings and qualification (letters after name,  framed certificate displayed on waiting-room wall and they appear on the registration list of their professional body - wherever they live and irrespective of where they practice.

The concern you raise is whether the conduct of an osteopath practising outside the UK is regulated by the GOC.  The answer to that is "I don't know"!  There are regulatory bodies in all those countries which offer these professional trainings and presumably they follow the practitioner to wherever s(he) practises.  This is the case with my own profession.

C'mon Rainy.....visiting an osteopath is not an ordeal nor is it an act of faith.  It is a fast, practical, objective treatment for a physical problem not a rendezvous with a trained killer!!!!  That URL Sueellen has just posted is useful though it has an American ambiance.


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## ClubMan (18 Dec 2004)

* ClubMan - the basic qualification is BSc degree and they must be State Registered to practice. That applies to Ireland, too! Some of the 8 training institutes in the UK are university based e.g. Middlesex. As a PAM myself (Profession Allied to Medicine) I always introduce myself to a new patient by reciting my qualifications and State Registration and recommend this as a matter of course. I agree with you - there are a lot of charlatains around who have read a couple of books or done an evening class........scary!

The General Osteopathic Council website lists 13 practitioners in Dublin. Implicitly they must be qualified/State Registered to be on the GOC register.*

Thanks _Marie_ - I was just curious about this and wary of recommendations to people to avail of services that may not have been regulated or involve suitably qualified practitioners. I did not mean to sound like I was arbitrarily having a go at anybody or any profession in particular. I trust that you can appreciate my circumspection when it comes to certain treatments.


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## rainyday (18 Dec 2004)

Hi Marie - I think the key issue is that while osteopathy is regulated in the UK, afaik it is not regulated here. So I could set up practice as an osteopath tomorrow and start jumping about on patients' backs, and there is nothing the General Osteopathic Council could do about it.

I recall a former colleague with back problems who ended up in hospital for weeks (or possibly months) and required surgery to repair the damage caused by either an osteopath or a chiropractor - can't recall which to be honest.

Is there any reason why you wouldn't recommend the local GP as the first port of call for someone with back problems?


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## Marie (18 Dec 2004)

Rainy, ClubMan - You've raised a very interesting point I've never considered before as to the scope of registration which I'll try to think about through my own professional membership but which I reckon applies to osteopathy.  I can check this with my chappie when I next see him on 30th January.

I'm a State Registered PAM (Profession Allied to Medicine, as we used to be called) State Registered in the UK through the Health Professionals Council (HPC).  This must be renewed annually and requires that I have conducted a minimum number of art psychotherapy sessions during the previous year, that I continue to receive appropriate clinical supervision of my work, and that I am actively engaged in Continuing Professional Development.  In addition I have a _professional_ registration with The British Association of Art Therapists and publicly listed as a State Registered Art Therapist (available on-line and in reference section of libraries) so the public or any potential patient can check my status.  I have union membership (AMICUS).  I carry professional indemnity insurance.  Not all practitioners/therapists do so but I value protection and safety for myself and my patients for most contingencies which might arise.  It is _not_ a substitute for safe ethical working but _an integral aspect_ of self ethical working.

_All the above is consequent on being deemed competent after basic training which is currently a University M.A. (formerly Postgraduate Diploma)._ I couldn't be on either the HPC's list of State Registered practitioners, nor appear in the BAAT list of Art Psychotherapists, without this.

When recently I was planning to relocate back to Ireland and practise in Dublin I contacted my professional body (BAAT) for information.  In order to continue to be State Registered if I practised in Ireland (or anywhere else!) the requirements were (1) that I continue to receive clinical supervision, maintain minimum hours of practice, Continuing Professional Development and maintain code and ethics of the British Society of Art Therapists.

_However_ Ireland does not _have_ a professional category "Art Psychotherapist" or "Art Therapist" and practitioners work in less structured and defined arenas compared to the NHS and the education system in the UK.  Now that I think about it, it is not clear to me in all of the above whether in another country, under another legislation, State Registration or professional accountability in the country where one trains have the same authority.  I know that in the case of medics coming to UK and Australia from (for example) the Indian sub-continent they are required to transfer to the UK body (GMC) and there are conversion requirements.  There are also conversion requirements and a lot of kerfuffle with Clinical Psychologists moving from one legislature to another, and they, too, often require to undertake conversion trainings to fit standards.

So I do see the difficulties for the lay person seeking this kind of treatment in Ireland.  If there is no established "profession" there cannot be "professional standards" and protection.

Rainy I will certainly talk with Stephen Pirie (my osteopath) when I next see him and ask how this works.  He teaches on one of the trainings here.  I will also bring this up with BAAT.


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## karlp (14 Nov 2007)

Regarding Osteopathy and regulation in Ireland. 
There is no state register, but we have a voluntary register, the Irish Osteopathic Association, IOA, all of whose members are registered also with the UK state regulator the General Osteopathic Council. 

See www.osteopathy.ie

That means we have all been assessed and follow a code of ethics in line with European guidelines. The course is a four year degree or equivalent.

Chiropractors have a similar association and codes.

Both professions are trying to get government to accept us onto the Health and Social Care Professionals Bill that regulates twelve disciplines such as podiatry and physiotherapy in Ireland on a statutory basis.

Hope this clears up any confusion

Karl.
Treasurer IOA.


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## SNOWBALL (14 Nov 2007)

hi

just to clarify Osteopath is a different profession compared to chiropractor.If you want an expert go to osteopath.I have a number for girl in kells co meath who is very good.


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## Mers1 (14 Nov 2007)

Hi, 

In my experience I would steer clear of Chiropractors.  They can end up doing more damage to your back/neck etc which could cost in the long run.  I had two recommended to me, both took a full history but never took x-rays or asked if previous CT's/MRI's were done.  

Basically I had two prolapsed discs in my neck and one in my lower spine which I was unaware of but the manipulation served only to make my pain worse/possibly even exacerbate the problem.  It was only when I eventually decided to see an Orthopaedic specialist did I find out the extent of the problems with my back which had been there for years.  I was told I should never have gone to see a chiropractor.

In short if you have back pain best "take the bull by the horns" pay the €150 and go see a specialist. 

Thats my "tuppence" worth.


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## indebtedgal (15 Nov 2007)

i'm really confused, why is it ok to discuss osteopathy etc and not natural treatment for psoriasis? i've just returned from an appointment with an osteopath so i'm all in favour of them for the record. i guess i'm just finding it difficult to differenciate "medical issues" from general misc questions.


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## Gordanus (15 Nov 2007)

Marie said:


> I'm a State Registered PAM (Profession Allied to Medicine, as we used to be called) State Registered in the UK through the Health Professionals Council (HPC).  This must be renewed annually and requires that I have conducted a minimum number of art psychotherapy sessions during the previous year, .



There is no PAM in Ireland. The Dept of Health has been in talks with various non-statutorily registered professions for some years.  The only stat-reg professions are nurses and medical doctors; professions which have been running their own registration for years are physios & psychologists, but because it's not statutory, it is voluntary.

It doesn't matter what a British organisation says, it cannot say that something is a criminal matter if done in a different country, because that is a matter for that countries' legal system to define.   So you can call yourself almost anything in Ireland (bar a nurse or a medical doctor) and there is no law to stop you.


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