# Can't attend work on account of religion.



## MandaC (1 May 2008)

I just want to ask a straight question without starting a religious debate!

If a person takes a job which means travelling to different areas on a daily basis as and when required , what is the position if that person refuses to go at certain times because of their religion.

The reason I am asking is that the person has to attend prayers in Dublin at lunchtime every Friday, thus can not do any far calls on that day. The person is attending the prayer service through their own lunch time, so thats not an issue.  Its causing friction in the workplace as some of the other staff feel they are getting the short straw.  If a call comes in on a Thursday  for say, Limerick, Cork or Belfast which will possibly result in whoever deals with it being late back on Friday one person just wont go,  even though it could be their turn.   Can anyone suggest a solution.

  Can he just be told, its your turn, you have to do the call this week, or is it more complicated than that.


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## truthseeker (1 May 2008)

*Re: Cant attend work on account of religion.*

I dont know anything about employment law etc... but just wondering this - if the person wants to pray at lunchtime every friday - why does the location matter? Can they not pray at lunchtime anywhere?


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## becky (1 May 2008)

*Re: Cant attend work on account of religion.*

In short they have to be available for the full range of duties so if being on-call at lunch time is part of duties then they have to be available.

There was a case wheere a care attendant refused to get rosary beads for a nurse who was attending to a dying patinet. The attendant said holding the cross was offensive to her religion. The attendant lost the case.


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## MandaC (1 May 2008)

*Re: Cant attend work on account of religion.*

Turthseeker, thats a good point and I am not sure.  I think they want to go to their house of worship and there is not one everywhere.

The staff are not on call during lunch time, but if they are in Waterford at 12 o'clock then they cant really come back to Dublin to have their lunch and then travel back to Waterford.

Sometimes calls might come in that might involve  working away Thursday, staying overnight on Thursday and travelling back Friday afternoon.  The person will not do these calls either.

Contract allows for "mobility clause" (not sure if thats what its called)

All people involved are starting to get stressed!


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## rob30 (1 May 2008)

*Re: Cant attend work on account of religion.*

My feeling is that religion should fit around ones life, not dictate it. I know plenty of devout catholic who work Sundays and know that because of work they cannot attend mass. If you religion stops you from doing a job, that is your religions, not your bosses, fault.


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## becky (1 May 2008)

*Re: Cant attend work on account of religion.*

I thought you meant he wasn't availble to answer his phone because he was praying.

I don't expect people to travel back to their base for lunch but I'm presuming they are taking a break.

Your friend needs to spell it out and confirm that the sisuation cannot continue any longer and he will have to do his fair share of calls from now on. 

We've had it here as well and they were told where to go and we're in the public service and we never get way with that - the union didn't even back them.


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## aircobra19 (1 May 2008)

*Re: Cant attend work on account of religion.*

Whats in their contract?


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## truthseeker (1 May 2008)

*Re: Cant attend work on account of religion.*

I wonder if the specific religious event they attend on a friday in dublin is actually available to them on other days (or in other places)? It might be worth finding out the specifics of why friday lunchtime & dublin are so important - your friend could ascertain if there was an alternative that the employee could attend without compromising his/her faith?

Is it possible the person is using religion as an excuse in this situation?


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## MandaC (1 May 2008)

*Re: Cant attend work on account of religion.*

Theres no problem with contract, travel to different locations is included because of the nature of the job involved.  Its just the person is a bit closed off against any discussions and claims to be victimised any time a discussion is brought up.  Its probably something that has been bubbling away for some time but is now going to come to a head.  

I dont know much about religions, but should look into the fact that it might be an excuse.


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## gearoidmm (1 May 2008)

*Re: Cant attend work on account of religion.*

Can you say which religion it is?


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## becky (1 May 2008)

*Re: Cant attend work on account of religion.*



truthseeker said:


> I wonder if the specific religious event they attend on a friday in dublin is actually available to them on other days (or in other places)?
> 
> If there is let him find this out for himself.
> 
> ...


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## redstar (1 May 2008)

*Re: Cant attend work on account of religion.*

What would the position be if a devout Catholic needed time off to go to Mass on every Holy Day of Obligation (other than Sunday) and during Easter 'Holy' week ?

From here ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Day_of_Obligation#Ireland



> On Sundays and other holy days of obligation, the faithful are obliged to participate in the Mass.
> Moreover they are to abstain from those works and affairs which hinder the worship to be rendered
> to God, the joy proper to the Lord’s day, or the suitable relaxation of mind and body.



Most of those days are not Public/Bank holidays
ie

    * The Epiphany
    * The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary
    * All Saints' Day
    * The Feast of the Immaculate Conception


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## Caveat (1 May 2008)

*Re: Cant attend work on account of religion.*

Presumably their contract sets out hours/days of work etc and presumably they accepted the job based on this description - if they find that other committments (be they religious or otherwise) conflict with this agreement then they shouldn't have accepted the job, and technically I suppose may be in breach of contract.

I'm no expert though...


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## gearoidmm (1 May 2008)

*Re: Cant attend work on account of religion.*



redstar said:


> What would the position be if a devout Catholic needed time off to go to Mass on every Holy Day of Obligation (other than Sunday) and during Easter 'Holy' week ?
> 
> From here ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Day_of_Obligation#Ireland
> 
> ...


 
I suppose if you really felt strongly about it you could take them as holiday leave


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## DavyJones (1 May 2008)

*Re: Cant attend work on account of religion.*



rob30 said:


> My feeling is that religion should fit around ones life, not dictate it. I know plenty of devout catholic who work Sundays and know that because of work they cannot attend mass. If you religion stops you from doing a job, that is your religions, not your bosses, fault.


 

couldn't agree with you less. I'm sure you use the term "devout catholic" loosely. To some people religion is a way of life and a big part of who they are. 
If OP's mate can't tow the line they should find a job that allows them to live a lifestyle they want.


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## truthseeker (1 May 2008)

*Re: Cant attend work on account of religion.*

Im inclined to wonder why the person accepted the job if he/she needs this 'special' treatment because of his religion. Surely at the interview stage had they disclosed that they needed to worship every friday lunchtime in dublin and therefore couldnt travel thursday evenings or fridays they wouldnt have been offered the position? So he/she effectively mis-represented themselves at interview stage and are now not working according to their contract. 

Just conjecturing here as we dont know what religion is involved - but I find it very difficult to believe that even if the place of worship is not widely available, that the times of worship and prayers are not flexible - how does anyone else of the religion who doesnt work near the place of worship cope if friday lunchtime is the only option?


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## MandaC (1 May 2008)

*Re: Cant attend work on account of religion.*

Davy Jones, you are reading me wrong...its not my mate who has the problem , my friend has to supervise this person and trying to organise staff because of this issue is a nightmare.

A quick search has showed up that (a) Friday is relevant but (b) the exact location is not necessarily. 


I think that if the person needs to get a job that suits their life style a bit better


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## aircobra19 (1 May 2008)

*Re: Cant attend work on account of religion.*

I think you'd have to go right back to their contract and hold them to that. They signed that agreeing with its terms. I can't see any other way to approach it. How would someone of the same religion handle other careers, like being a pilot, or a doctor etc. Or indeed any shift work. Perhaps this is something for a HR person to earn their keep and find out.


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## becky (1 May 2008)

*Re: Cant attend work on account of religion.*

MandaC - Fridays are not relevant.  

There is no obligation on an employer/supervisor to accomdate religion at all.

#your frined can just say sorry its not working you wil have to do you fair share of calls form now on.  

If the enplyee doesn't like it as yu said they are free to get another job but they shoudl dop the calls until then?  

He really is taking the michael.


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## redstar (1 May 2008)

*Re: Cant attend work on account of religion.*



MandaC said:


> I think that if the person needs to get a job that suits their life style a bit better



But maybe the person can only do that type of work and, presumeably is not from a 'mainstream' (in Ireland anyway) religion, has little choice in the way of jobs ?
The person should have brought this up at the interview, but if rejected could possibly have claimed religious discrimination. Maybe thats why religion never came up at that time.

Flexibility from everyone involved is the only approach I'd recommend. 
For example, if other colleagues took turns to cover for that person on Thur/Fri, and that person then covered for his/her colleagues at other times ?


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## DavyJones (1 May 2008)

*Re: Cant attend work on account of religion.*

redstar, I think MandaC meant another job else where not a change of career. 
I aussume this guy is a Muslim, I do remember local mosque's being busy places on a friday. How do other Muslims cope? If there is no legal obligation to keep him and he worked for me, then I'd give him the road as he can't fulfill his duties.


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## truthseeker (1 May 2008)

Im still of the opinion that even if fridays are important - surely he could get up early, and go and pray at 7am or something, then come to work, religious obligations satisfied, or alternatively go after coming back to dublin on a friday evening.

i just dont believe for a minute that every person in this religion is free from 1-2pm on a friday to worship.


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## redstar (1 May 2008)

DavyJones
The phrase "I think that if the person needs to get a job that suits their life style a bit better" sounds like a career change to me  

Surely the same type of job/similar tasks/duties elsewhere would still bring the same problem ?


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## John Rambo (1 May 2008)

truthseeker said:


> i just dont believe for a minute that every person in this religion is free from 1-2pm on a friday to worship.


 
I don't know...I've heard Scientologists have to watch Top Gun every Tuesday at 3pm. It can play hell with rostering.


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## irishlinks (1 May 2008)

I think Friday at noon is the critical time for Muslims. The school in Ballyhaunis Co Mayo lets muslim pupils leave school to go to prayer service. 
I have worked in places with muslims before and never experienced any problems - but the job I was in did not involve travel more than a couple of miles.
Like an earlier person said - there must be Muslims in plenty of jobs that mean they are not able to get to a mosque on Friday - what do they do?
Also - the poster who mentioned Catholics and getting to mass on holydays - many if not all churches have evening masses and morning masses. There are that many churches in Ireland it would be easy to get mass on a holyday somewhere - so it's not a fair comparison.
Is there a requirement to pray in a mosque on Friday? Can they  just pray on their own?


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## MandaC (1 May 2008)

All very interesting replies.  What I meant by Friday being relevant is that its relvant for the persons religion.  The employer is not really willing to accomodate any longer.  They feel its getting in the way of productivity and effecting staff morale in general.  

As regards being flexible, dont think that this is really an option.  Another guy plays badminton every Thursday night and is not willing to do all the Thursday stay over's either, though is willing to do his share.  

As regards finding another job, person does not want to leave. 

Anyway, will post an update.


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## redstar (1 May 2008)

irishlinks said:


> Also - the poster who mentioned Catholics and getting to mass on holydays - many if not all churches have evening masses and morning masses. There are that many churches in Ireland it would be easy to get mass on a holyday somewhere - so it's not a fair comparison.



Thats my point - Catholics have no problem because of the availability of churches, frequency of masses.
Muslims do not have as much choice, so its harder to accommodate them.


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## MandaC (1 May 2008)

My point is, if you take on a job that clearly involves travelling throughout ireland, but you need to be in dublin on Friday lunch time, then you cant really do that particual job and may need to find something located in Dublin for the full week.

In reality, economy is starting to bite the employer, (like everyone else) and to keep up with competition, have to offer better service, better response time, better trained staff, etc.   there is no point in having someone on call in Dublin if a call comes in from Athlone.  If a client needs a service call on Friday in Ballygobackwards, its not enough anymore to try and push the call back to Monday.  When the calls come in, the staff just have to go.  Otherwise they could be all out of a job.

Hopefully it will work out!


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## Simeon (1 May 2008)

redstar said:


> Thats my point - Catholics have no problem because of the availability of churches, frequency of masses.
> Muslims do not have as much choice, so its harder to accommodate them.


Did the Prophet state that people of his persuasion should be Dublin-bound Friday afternoons?


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## pc7 (1 May 2008)

I was in Dubai last year during Ramadam and seen truck drivers pulling into the side of the road and praying, location didn't matter (I know we don't know the religion of the OP work colleague). I would hope that the law supports all workers equally and that they'll have to do their fair share of Friday runs


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## truthseeker (1 May 2008)

The person in question needs to prioritise, is it more important that they attend the Friday prayer session or that they earn a living?

Can they not find out the location of other prayer services on Fridays and attend the nearest if they are away with the job? There are surely more mosques than just in Dublin.


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## MandaC (1 May 2008)

Truthseeker, you might have a point and it might just be that the employee does not want to bother having to look up other places /

By saying, no I have to be in Dublin Friday lunch time, he has more or less got away with not having to make his own arrangements.

Might be just chancing his arm and will just have to make his own arrangements once its confirmed that he is employed on the same terms and conditions as the other  employees in the same positon.

I just wanted to check what the legalities were, and that would appear - what ever is in the contract of employment will apply, irrespective of religious commitments.

thanks!


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## NicolaM (1 May 2008)

That was more than a bit cheeky! Quite innovative of the employee, don't you think, suggesting a completely inequitable solution, which also reduces down his working week time commitment?
Hopefully the contract is quite clear on working hours and commitments, which need to be clearly pointed out. 
I think care needs to be taken that nothing in any way discriminatory is said, and that a record is kept of every conversation, and what it consists of however. Just in case. And if it comes to it, that any disciplinary procedure is followed to the letter, as per the company protocol.
Post back please!! It'll be interesting to see what happens here..

Nicola


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## shipibo (1 May 2008)

MandaC said:


> I just wanted to check what the legalities were, and that would appear - what ever is in the contract of employment will apply, irrespective of religious commitments.
> 
> thanks!



If you believe this will go down a legal route, be careful with your assertion above, it may not be that clear cut. 

Employee has offered alternative working conditions, and work conditions have got tighter lately due to economic downturn suggesting "custom and practice" has changed forcing employee to make a stance on religious grounds.


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## Brianne (1 May 2008)

In Ireland , where we have plenty of churches , catholics can easily usually attend Mass on holidays and even on Sundays. But even in the Public Sector, one attends church , secondary  to the demands of the rosters.However , we have always had Muslims working here, particularly in the medical profession and I have never heard that they had to attend the mosque on Friday. Like Catholics , I am almost certain , that in an ideal world they attend on their day of worship but equally like Catholics, if through unavoidable circumstances, they can't ,then as far as I know, they can pray elsewhere.
If one was that devout, why would one come to work and live in a Christian country?
Someone is chancing their arm and isn't it very handy not to be on the road in Friday traffic!
Sorry, I'm being cynical, but I've seen a fair share of Catholics try to pull fast ones like this.


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## ailbhe (2 May 2008)

Why not have him agree that he will travel on Thursday/Friday if there is a mosqu available

See here [broken link removed]

It pretty much covers every Irish city.
It will prevent him from arguing that he is being discriminated against although it still restricts where he can travel to. But it may aleviate the tension between the co workers and avoid the legal route.
If he refuses when there is a mosque near where he has to go then he is just being awkward.


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## truthseeker (2 May 2008)

Id be inclined to phone up the equivalent of the parish priest at the local mosque and ask exactly what the situation is regarding congregational worship on a friday, id bet you'll find that its not an absolute requirement and that if he missed the odd friday here and there he would still be welcome to heaven or whatever the place is.

its very easy to claim 'my religion' because if anyone disputes it the person in question can start making noise about discrimination. Leaving religion out of it for a minute, would it be acceptable for one employee to refuse to do certain hours because they wanted every friday lunchtime in dublin to do some kind of personal task - no.

I fully agree with Brianne - if one was that devout why live and work in a Christian country?


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## Caveat (2 May 2008)

I simply would not tolerate this as an employer.

From the sounds of it, the employee is not adhering to the T&Cs of their contract - if they are not permanent or still on probation etc, and can't come to a mutually agreeable compromise - get rid of them.

If they are permanent advise them they are in breach of their contract and issue a formal warning - any reason not to follow the above route?


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## mercman (2 May 2008)

I do know that religous Jews make a point of telling their employers of certain days of the year they will require holidays and if they have to leave early on Friday they make sure their employers know this prior to employment. I've seen this happening in Ireland and the UK. I am sure this Post should not become a religous hatred matter but perhaps they will next want to travel to areas where they can only get Halal meat sandwiches as well. I would say that in this case the employer would be within their rights to tell the person to find another job.


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## MandaC (2 May 2008)

The person has been in the job now over a year, but the issue has only come up now and again because it does not happen every Friday.    My friend is not prepared to do the job someone else is paid to do.

Neither is he prepared to mollycoddle anyone (it will ultimately be his head on the line) and just wants everyone to handle the calls as and when and where they come in and for everyone to just get on with the job in hand.  My friend would be a bit direct (as would I) in my thinking about this - this is your contract, this is the job, so I wanted to get other opinions on it.

I dont think the employer is out of line in trying to enforce the terms of the contract. 


Thanks for the responses.


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## dereko1969 (2 May 2008)

Brianne said:


> If one was that devout, why would one come to work and live in a Christian country?


little bit presumptive there, just because the person is a muslim does not mean they weren't born or brought up here.
having said that, the person signed up to a job, hasn't had to go to friday prayers every friday so i agree is chancing their arm and may be seeking to lodge a case for discrimination.


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## aircobra19 (2 May 2008)

truthseeker said:


> ...
> I fully agree with Brianne - if one was that devout why live and work in a Christian country?



That is completely irrelevent. 



Caveat said:


> ...the employee is not adhering to the T&Cs of their contract - ....If they are permanent advise them they are in breach of their contract and issue a formal warning - any reason not to follow the above route?



Thats the only issue IMO.


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## truthseeker (2 May 2008)

aircobra19 said:


> That is completely irrelevent.


 
Well actually it is relevant - if the person WAS born or brought up in this country they would have already found ways around this issue in the past.


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## TDON (2 May 2008)

Knowing a person that has worked in a company, where all were of this religion, I can tell you that it wouldn't work out for them in a Muslim company either.

The boss/owner and he alone, went to the Mosque on Fridays and while the "service" was an important part, I believe it was the almost the party like athmosphere of meeting up with friends & having a laugh that were more important (at least to this guy). The rest of the employees wanted to go also and were so resentful they couldn't, that there was an awful black cloud hanging around until the boss returned, with loads of other mates in tow, that he had met and invited back to have a look at his company. At which stage all the employees pretended to be happy again. (Smiled and laughed to his face and gave him daggers once he'd walked past). It didn't help that he gave off the air that he was of a higher status because he was in the privilidged position of being able to go to the Mosque & they weren't. Anyway, he just didn't care as he'd a business to run and couldn't let all of the rest of the employees go. 

The thing is business goes on regardless of religion. People want a service and if yours is not available they will go to the next person on their list. At least these guys knew which side of their bread was buttered.


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## zag (2 May 2008)

MandaC - you may want to hold back on the details a little here.  If I was the person your friend is concerned about I don't think I would be impressed that so much of my working and personal life was being discussed in a public forum if someone could identify me from your posts.  Feel free to keep discussing, but just be aware of giving out too much specific detail.


z


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## zag (2 May 2008)

I would be inclined to go down the contractual route and don't try discussing the religious aspect.  Each of the employees presumably signed the same contract which required that they be available 9-5 M-F (or whatever the hours are) and overnight at locations as required.  It should be pointed out to the individual concerned that they agreed to this contract and should adhere to the conditions.

They can bring in the religious aspect if they want, but unless there is some contractual recognition of religious observances your friend should indicate that they will *try* to accommodate them, but if this is not possible then the employee must attend for work as required by the contract.

What would happen if one of the employees decided they had to get their hair done every Friday in Dublin and the other had to get their poodle groomed every Friday also ?  Sure, it would be nice to accommodate them all, but that just isn't going to work.  Each employee should work to the contract and fit in other non-work requirements where possible.

As a matter of interest, what does the contract say about the overnight situation ?  Is this requirement written into the contract or has it just evolved for practical reasons so that people don't have to drive back from Galway at 1700 one day and then drive back there for 0900 the next day.

z


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## aircobra19 (2 May 2008)

truthseeker said:


> Well actually it is relevant - if the person WAS born or brought up in this country they would have already found ways around this issue in the past.



Its not relevant  because it doesn't help the OP in any way. Also this could be their first job, or perhaps they didn't work on a Friday in a previous job. Who knows, who cares. Its not like you can bring it up in a disciplinary meeting.


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## batty (2 May 2008)

zag said:


> I would be inclined to go down the contractual route and don't try discussing the religious aspect. Each of the employees presumably signed the same contract which required that they be available 9-5 M-F (or whatever the hours are) and overnight at locations as required. It should be pointed out to the individual concerned that they agreed to this contract and should adhere to the conditions.
> 
> They can bring in the religious aspect if they want, but unless there is some contractual recognition of religious observances your friend should indicate that they will *try* to accommodate them, but if this is not possible then the employee must attend for work as required by the contract.
> 
> ...


 
This to me is exactly the crux of the issue here - it is nothing whatsoever to do with a person's religion. Flexibility has go both ways for it to work.  what flexibility is the employee showing?

This person is actually discriminating aginst his colleagues IMO as they can't have a reciprocal arrangement with time off.

I'd love to tell my employer that i need Friday afternoons off as I need to get my roots done. if they refuse I'll claim they're discrimating against me because I'm blonde.


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## truthseeker (2 May 2008)

aircobra19 said:


> Its not relevant because it doesn't help the OP in any way. Also this could be their first job, or perhaps they didn't work on a Friday in a previous job. Who knows, who cares. Its not like you can bring it up in a disciplinary meeting.


 
Of course its relevant - the whole situation may be resolved before going near a disciplinary meeting by a little communication between the OPs friend and the employee about how the employee has dealt with this in other life situations and how best he may be able to deal with it now in a manner that suits all. If he is not willing to budge on it then its not unreasonable to 'wonder' why he would want to have taken the job in the first place.


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## FredBloggs (2 May 2008)

A little off subject but when Bob Paisley was manager of Liverpool he was chuffed at signing an Israeli international..... until someone asked him has checked if the player's religion allowed him play on Saturdays.   (he could but Paisley didn't know that when he was asked)

In more recent times there was a German International who refused to play soccer on Sundays.

To each his own I suppose but in the case mentioned by the op I definitely think the employee is in breach of his contract.


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## ClubMan (2 May 2008)

There is no statutory entitlement to time off work for religious reasons. It's purely a contractual matter between the employer and individual (or a matter for collective bargaining in some situations). If the two parties do not come to some arrangement and the employee cannot deal with the situation then presumably they must find alternative employment that better suits their needs?


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## annR (2 May 2008)

I think it needs to be thrashed out with the employee whether he agreed to make himself available for these trips during the interview/ contract signing phase and whether there are praying facilities for him in the places he is doing the trips - someone posted a helpful link earlier.  That's the only way to see whether he has a case or not.

From my understanding, the employee is not asking for time off work for religious reasons, but for extra consideration in that it just doesn't suit him to do the overnight calls on Thursdays.  I don't think that comparing religious matters to frivolous things like having your roots done is helpful.  Plenty of people get extra understanding from employers for perceived important stuff like health/family related stuff, but we're saying it's out of the question for religious matters?  I guess it depends what kind of employer you want to be and whether he's worth keeping.


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## Newbie! (2 May 2008)

The person concerned is obviously muslim and fridays at about 1:30 is their prayer time. In my opinion (and this is not to start a debate) muslims take their religion very very seriously and are often told by the mullahs at their mosque that they cannot pray in locations that are not religious nor can they postpone praying to a later time. Each of these options is only allowed in very few circumstances. Most muslims will do what their mullah tells them. 

Difficult case for employer and employee.


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## Caveat (2 May 2008)

Newbie! said:


> Difficult case for employer and employee.


 
Yes, but as stated, the job (apparently) entails being in certain locations at certain times of the week - bottom line is, if the employee cannot fulfill their obligations they:

a) Are probably in breach of their contract

b) Shouldn't have taken the job in the first place

The reason for them not fulfilling their obligations is irrelevant, no matter how important their religion (or anything else that proves to be a distraction) is to them.


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## ClubMan (2 May 2008)

Sounds correct (and reasonable/common sense) to me.


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## Brianne (2 May 2008)

Actually I feel my point is relevant. This is a country in which there is no provision for people to automatically be allowed off work for religious services.This is a country where the worker took a job which involves working away from his place of religion some days. The worker knows this , and this work duty is not one that can be done always by the same people , in the interests of fairness. Otherwise the employer is discriminating against the other workers. Its part of the jobs terms and conditions. Of course there is always room for compromise on special occasions but not at the constant expense of other workers.
This may be very distressing to a person of devout religious belief, whether a Christian, Jew, Muslim or other .My point is that is one was of such religious belief, then one would work in such a way as to fit work around religion. Last time I checked this society doesn't operate that way, we are in practice a secular society, and I still fail to understand how anyone of such devout views. if such is the case, would either choose to live and work here or choose to come here to work. 
The employer is quite within his rights to want the same work duties from this employee as is demanded from the other employees. Anything else is favouritism.


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## aircobra19 (2 May 2008)

I posted this earlier, I thought, but don't see it now. Maybe not. 



truthseeker said:


> Of course its relevant - the whole situation may be resolved before going near a disciplinary meeting by a little communication between the OPs friend and the employee about how the employee has dealt with this in other life situations and how best he may be able to deal with it now in a manner that suits all. If he is not willing to budge on it then its not unreasonable to 'wonder' why he would want to have taken the job in the first place.



From the first page of this thread. 



MandaC said:


> ....Its just the person is a bit closed off against any discussions and claims to be victimised any time a discussion is brought up. Its probably something that has been bubbling away for some time but is now going to come to a head. ...



IMO (and I've no expertise in this, its just my opinion) Legally the only stick you can use is the contract they signed. If you start talking about religion and why they moved to country with a different religion you are gift wrapping a discrimination case for them. Why they can't meet their obligations in the contract is none of your business IMO. 

If the person was making an effort to meet you half way, cover other people at the weekend instead, that would be different. You could consider other options. But that doesn't seem to be the case here. This person seem determined to make an issue of it, regardless of the conflict its causing in the office. You can only speculate why someone would take that approach. I'd be cynical of their motives tbh.


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## MandaC (2 May 2008)

In fairness to the employee, he did offer to work Saturday morning instead, but Saturday would not suit the majority of customers  or the business needs, so its not really a runner, eg a job might need two people on site at once, so going thursday, coming back friday and then going back saturday will lead to additional hotel bills for employer and also a second person having to work on a saturday who will possibly not want to do so, plus majority of customers sites may not be open.

The more it goes on, it would appear that  employee is bluffing a bit because people do not know much about his religion and are very wary of bringing it up.  To date once the issue was raised there was a kind of huff taken and issue was left unresolved and "went away" for a time.   

Person can be ok for the most part but can then just get very awkward over certain things (thats just his personality more than anything else) whereas with any of the other employees you could say "look I feel you are being a bit unreasonable over X,Y, or Z, and they might say , ok fair enough, or put forward alternative and acceptable proposals, but sometimes this person just gets awkward and refuses to budge on anything, once he digs his heels in.

If there are certain family occassion or religious occassion that any of the staff wanted to attend on a one off basis, its not an issue for the employer, once notice is given and adequate cover for the business is arranged on time.  However, having someone who can t potentially attend possibly one/two days out of a possible five is a nightmare.  

I think the way forward is to stick strictly to the facts of the employment contract/job and not enter into any debate about the religious side at all.  Its really none of the employers concern anyway, all they require is to be able to offer a prompt service to their customers.

I personally feel that the other employees have been discriminated against to date, by being stuck with the less preferential locations and times and have put forward that opinion.  I think thats partly why they are starting to voice their objections too.  If it were me, I would too.

The way I see it, if it does not get resolved soon, its going to lead to bigger problems with more people involved.

Thanks for all the responses and will let you know how it goes in due course.


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## television (2 May 2008)

I assume that person is a muslim who needs to attend a mosque on a friday. 

I would suggest that they go to any number of musques that are around ireland to attend friday prayer. 

Ask the guy about attending a mosque in where ever he happens to be working at the time. 

Sit down with him to discuss the mosques that are avalible to him around ireland. ring the islamic cultural centre clonskeagh to get details of these locations.


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## mercman (2 May 2008)

So he should be given time to travel to the Mosque, time for prayer, time for a chat and time to travel back to work. In my estimation that is about 2 hours at the Mosque and whatever time to get there and back. This bloke is trying to rewrite the rule books. And onto that he wants the company clients to work Saturdays to suit him. I think its Good Luck and Good Bye to him.


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## MandaC (2 May 2008)

Employer not willing at the moment to discuss anything to do with religion with him - in case its misconstrued in any way.  Have taken this advice from a number of posters on this site and its not bad advice.  

They have already said it's fine for him to make alternative prayer arrangments even if it means him taking longer lunch hour on the day, provided its worked up on the same day (just so the job is finished on the same day)  they are not going to get involved in his actual arrangments, they just want the times involved.


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## Complainer (3 May 2008)

It might be worth talking to the Equality Authority before taking any action to see if employer's actions could be considered discriminatory.


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## MandaC (3 May 2008)

Thanks for that, might not be a bad idea to give them a ring to ensure all in order.


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## Black Sheep (3 May 2008)

To me this sounds like a complete cop-out. Who would choose to travel the roads of Ireland on a Friday evening if they could off-load it on to someone else. 
Is there an actual prayer service taking place on Friday lunch time which is compulsory for him to attend?. Have you considered attending yourself
I think this person needs to be reminded that this situation operates on team work and everybody takes equal share of the good and bad shifts


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## Bronte (5 May 2008)

The workplace must be very close to the place of religious service, don't know how anyone could get from work to such a place and back in one lunch hour in Dublin traffic and have enough time to pray properly.


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## sparkeee (6 May 2008)

I think its good to see someone who has true beliefs,i had to give up my beliefs as i had to work sundays to pay the mortgage.


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## MandaC (6 May 2008)

I think some people are missing the point.  The fact that the person is muslim does not matter.  

If you read the article about Sainsbury's, Senior Muslims have more or less said that this is just people suiting themselves.

In this case it would appear to be the same.  I dont have to be mystic meg to know this person will find something else an issue later on.  If he were Irish, he would find a different set of excuses to be obstinate.   If he were English, a different set.  It just happens now that he has an excuse (relevant to him) and given that people are afraid of confronting anything that could be deemed racist/discriminatory he will exploit that gap in the market, so to speak, for as long as he will get away with it.

We have all had awkward people in jobs, be it that you couldn't change a light bulb without an electrician, looking for 7.5minutes off (time and a half) because they stayed back five minutes late, and so on.  

Company will seek legal advice as back up and will seek to enforce the terms of the contract.


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## theoneill (6 May 2008)

This religion / time off debate is silly, you should be no more entitled to time off work to worship God(s) than I should to worship the tooth fairy.


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## Thirsty (6 May 2008)

> Irish Catholic in pharmacy refuse to sell condoms


This is (or was at any rate) actually the case - when legislation was brought in during the 1980s to legalise contraception, Drs and pharmacists were allowed to opt-out on religious grounds.


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## csirl (6 May 2008)

> I assume that person is a muslim who needs to attend a mosque on a friday.
> 
> I would suggest that they go to any number of musques that are around ireland to attend friday prayer.
> 
> ...


 
I think its a very bad idea to get involved in any religious discussion with this employee, or any employee. 

Stick to the terms of the contract and if the employee tries to bring in his religion just give the stock reply that you have no interest in any employees private lives and do not want to get into a discussion about it, all you are interested in is the terms and conditions of the job.


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## ClubMan (6 May 2008)

Kildrought said:


> This is (or was at any rate) actually the case - when legislation was brought in during the 1980s to legalise contraception, Drs and pharmacists were allowed to opt-out on religious grounds.


But they would be self employed rather than employees surely? Different situation.


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## Purple (6 May 2008)

Soldier said:


> well in my opinion i feel it is relevant. i feel that our country is losing its culture because "we" as a country are trying to hard to make every other nationality, religion, race feel comfortable. And people are afraid to object because youll be classed as being a racist. Im sick of hearing take down that crib and cross at xmas time in a hospital or anywhere for that matter because it offends other religions. They are coming into this country knowing the religion is Catholic so either like it or lump it.


 Kind of ironic that you call it xmas and then complain about the loss of Christian identity. I do agree that we should not abandon our Christian traditions (in so much as they relate to our cultural expression) in order to placate those who choose to move here from other countries but I don’t think that should be linked to an anti-emigration or racist platform. However we do have to accept that in the modern world nationality can no longer be defined by a homogeneous racial or cultural identity. In this regard I support a version of the American oath of allegiance.


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## ClubMan (6 May 2008)

Purple said:


> Kind of ironic that you call it xmas and then complain about the loss of Christian identity.


Actually, in spite of people thinking that it's inappropriate or disrespectful, the word "Xmas" or variations on this theme have a long history dating back to times when it was deemed inappropriate or blasphemous to even mention the word "Christ".


> I do agree that we should not abandon our Christian traditions (in so much as they relate to our cultural expression) in order to placate those who choose to move here from other countries


What about placating those who are born and bred here but object to certain expressions of this "Christian tradition"?


> but I don’t think that should be linked to an anti-emigration


Yeah - what have people *leaving *_Ireland _got to do with this? 


> or racist platform.


The term "racism" is habitually misused by many people when they mean something else - e.g. xenophobia etc.


> However we do have to accept that in the modern world nationality can no longer be defined by a homogeneous racial or cultural identity. In this regard I support a version of the American oath of allegiance.


Hopefully without the "One nation under God" bit that a lot of people unilaterally tack onto the end...


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## Purple (6 May 2008)

ClubMan said:


> Actually, in spite of people thinking that it's inappropriate or disrespectful, the word "Xmas" or variations on this theme have a long history dating back to times when it was deemed inappropriate or blasphemous to even mention the word "Christ".


 Jasus, I didn’t know that.



ClubMan said:


> What about placating those who are born and bred here but object to certain expressions of this "Christian tradition"?


 Speaking as a non-believer it doesn’t bother me to see cribs etc at Christmas, just as seeing Lepricons around St. Patrick’s day or witches at Halloween doesn’t bother me; they all go with the event. Whatever brand of crazy people want to believe in is their own business. 



ClubMan said:


> Yeah - what have people *leaving *_Ireland _got to do with this?


 It’s not like you to spot typos. Thanks. I can’t edit your quote so I won’t bother to change my post 


ClubMan said:


> The term "racism" is habitually misused by many people when they mean something else - e.g. xenophobia etc.


 I agree. I was replying to Soldiers use of the term.


ClubMan said:


> Hopefully without the "One nation under God" bit that a lot of people unilaterally tack onto the end...


 It used to just say _"I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. America" _The _“under God”_ bit was added in the 1950’s.


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## aircobra19 (6 May 2008)

I think all of the above illustrates perfectly how fraught these issues are, and you are better avoiding all of the "noise" by keeping the frame of reference soley on the legal contract signed by the employee. The contract is there for exactly these kind of issues.


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## Purple (6 May 2008)

aircobra19 said:


> I think all of the above illustrates perfectly how fraught these issues are, and you are better avoiding all of the "noise" by keeping the frame of reference soley on the legal contract signed by the employee. The contract is there for exactly these kind of issues.



Agreed


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## Brendan Burgess (6 May 2008)

As this has become a Letting Off Steam issue, I have moved it and deleted the posts from newly registered users.

Brendan


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## MandaC (6 May 2008)

See what you mean.  That's exactly what I did not want to start when posing the question in the first place. 

If the mods think it has run its course, feel free to close. 

Stick closely to the terms of the contract. Thats advice enough.


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## Complainer (6 May 2008)

Purple said:


> Jasus, I didn’t know that.


Class....


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## Bronte (8 May 2008)

Is a Lepricon some kind of unicorn?  Though I must admit I've never seen either.


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## Yachtie (8 May 2008)

redstar said:


> But maybe the person can only do that type of work and, presumeably is not from a 'mainstream' (in Ireland anyway) religion, has little choice in the way of jobs ?
> The person should have brought this up at the interview, but if rejected could possibly have claimed religious discrimination. Maybe thats why religion never came up at that time.
> 
> Flexibility from everyone involved is the only approach I'd recommend.
> For example, if other colleagues took turns to cover for that person on Thur/Fri, and that person then covered for his/her colleagues at other times ?


 
This person is a Muslim as in Islam, Friday is the equivalent of Sunday for Christians. They can pray wherever they like, a trip to the mosque is not mandatory as long as they are facing Mecca. The direction can easily be established on one's own and I think this person is avoiding his professional duties by means of abusing his religious belief.


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## ClubMan (8 May 2008)

Bronte said:


> Is a Lepricon some kind of unicorn?


No - it's a rip-off skin disease.


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## Brendan Burgess (8 May 2008)

and on that note...


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