# Zappone appointment a step too far...



## Brendan Burgess (7 Sep 2021)

Zappone ‘given free reign’ over envoy job, says Opposition
					

Reaction: Documents show Katherine Zappone ‘seriously lobbied’ three FG members




					www.irishtimes.com
				




Now it seems that he wanted to make  her the Queen.

Brendan


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## Purple (7 Sep 2021)

It's a case study in how to turn a non-story into something that is very damaging by totally mishandling it.


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## odyssey06 (7 Sep 2021)

She seems to want the job so much maybe she could offer to do it for free?

I get the feeling she'd go on these committees, read these reports as a high hobby horse.


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## Leper (7 Sep 2021)

Purple said:


> It's a case study in how to turn a non-story into something that is very damaging by totally mishandling it.


Purple is right. This is a non story from the beginning. I can't help but get the feeling that it's a smokescreen to hide something else.


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## Purple (7 Sep 2021)

I didn't like her at first. Mainly because she came across as a hostile feminist only interested in 'wemmen's issues'.
I have to say I was impressed with her as a minister. She came across as competent, erudite and articulate. I'd have had no problem with her getting a UN job.


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## WolfeTone (7 Sep 2021)

Purple said:


> She came across as competent, erudite and articulate. I'd have had no problem with her getting a UN job.



I don't think anyone would. 
The problem is the manner in which she got the job. I'm guessing there may perhaps be a few others who consider themselves competent, erudite and articulate and may have considered applying for the post also?
But they wouldn't have been able to because it appears it was a done deal for people in high office to override the rules and regulations that they themselves sign off on.
I'm only speculating of course, I'm sure a reasonable explanation will be forthcoming as to why the post was not subject to the normal channels of Public Appointments.


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## odyssey06 (7 Sep 2021)

Get me Zappone!

Sounds like it should be a 1970s cop show, but no, it's another Irish public appointment stroke turned scandal.


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## Purple (7 Sep 2021)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Zappone ‘given free reign’ over envoy job, says Opposition
> 
> 
> Reaction: Documents show Katherine Zappone ‘seriously lobbied’ three FG members
> ...


Reign... good one!


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## SGWidow (7 Sep 2021)

I think Katherine Zappone needs to be called before the Committee.

There were more holes in Coveney's performance today than in a colander.

As bad as he was, Charlie Flanagan should be ashamed of himself for an appalling job as chair.


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## Purple (7 Sep 2021)

SGWidow said:


> I think Katherine Zappone needs to be called before the Committee.
> 
> There were more holes in Coveney's performance today than in a colander.
> 
> As bad as he was, Charlie Flanagan should be ashamed of himself for an appalling job as chair.


She's a private citizen now so can't be compelled to attend.


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## SGWidow (7 Sep 2021)

I know that.

That's why I said needs to be called - not must be compelled.

We all know that she won't be called/requested is because Charlie Flanagan will manage this. If you had seen the sham this morning, you would understand why I write this.


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## Brendan Burgess (7 Sep 2021)

SGWidow said:


> We all know that she won't be called/requested is because Charlie Flanagan will manage this



Yeah, you are dead right. He 

Cathal Berry   Independent
John Brady   Sinn Féin
Sorca Clarke  Sinn Féin 
Barry Cowen  Fianna Fáil
Charles Flanagan - Chair  Fine Gael
Gary Gannon  Social Democrats
James Lawless  Fianna Fáil
Brian Leddin  Green Party
David Stanton  Fine Gael

He will overrule the likes of Barry Cowen and Brian Leddin and the Sinn Féiners.

Brendan


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## SGWidow (7 Sep 2021)

I was just giving my opinion. I found Coveney's and Flan's performances appalling.

Others will have different opinions.

Earlier, I needed to correct the inference that Purple had implied that I said something that I hadn't.

It's good to tidy up loose ends........I think even Simon will agree with that......WITH THE BENEFIT OF HINDSIGHT!!!!

I watched the entire show this morning. I know who's on the committee!


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## Purple (7 Sep 2021)

SGWidow said:


> Earlier, I needed to correct the inference that Purple had implied that I said something that I hadn't.


Where did I do that?

It might be appalling but it's nothing new and it's distracting from the real issues our Government and Parliament should be concentrating on.


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## Duke of Marmalade (7 Sep 2021)

The real scandal is that the longer this drags out Ireland is being deprived of a Special Envoy on Freedom of Expression.


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## Purple (7 Sep 2021)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> The real scandal is that the longer this drags out Ireland is being deprived of a Special Envoy on Freedom of Expression.


I've lost for words...


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## WolfeTone (7 Sep 2021)

Political dynamics at play are interesting. MM dumped on Barry Cowen, but he is effectively powerless to take out Coveney without triggering a collapse of Government and an end to his own reign.
So Barry Cowen had a misdemeanour and lost his port folio, but Coveney stays on?
In whose interest is this if only his own selfish interest?


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## SGWidow (7 Sep 2021)

Actually, WT, this stuff is ideal for SF........they are the big winners in all of this........matter of time before SF hold the justice and defence portfolios!


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## deanpark (7 Sep 2021)

SGWidow said:


> Actually, WT, this stuff is ideal for SF........they are the big winners in all of this........matter of time before SF hold the justice and defence portfolios!


I'm no supporter of SF but I think its hypocritical of commentators in RoI saying stuff like this when we all gush about the positive shifts in NI that have seen SF in govt there with DUP.  Is it grand for Northies to have SF in charge and running ministries but we're too good for it?!


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## odyssey06 (7 Sep 2021)

deanpark said:


> I'm no supporter of SF but I think its hypocritical of commentators in RoI saying stuff like this when we all gush about the positive shifts in NI that have seen SF in govt there with DUP.  Is it grand for Northies to have SF in charge and running ministries but we're too good for it?!


Well Im not defending gushing ... about anything.

But it was a necessary part of the peace process in the North as part of power sharing.
None of that means they can be trusted if given free reign.
The N Ireland executive does not have the full scope of powers ROI government does, they are in a box.


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## peemac (7 Sep 2021)

A classic example of politicians not having the guts to stand up and stick to their guns 

Coveney should have stood his ground. Stated that this was a position with small payment and requiring a particular circumstance which Zappone filled and she was eminently qualified.

Maybe apologize for how it was brought to cabinet, but no apologies for the appointment.

Now sf want a "process" for a two bit part-time role that has a payment of about €20,000 a year. 

The cost of that "process" will probably be multiples of the fee for the position.

It will be very interesting to see what happens when/if sf get into government and how much cronyism surfaces.


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## deanpark (7 Sep 2021)

odyssey06 said:


> Well Im not defending gushing ... about anything.
> 
> But it was a necessary part of the peace process in the North as part of power sharing.
> None of that means they can be trusted if given free reign.
> The N Ireland executive does not have the full scope of powers ROI government does, they are in a box.


I think you mean free rein not "free reign".. an important distinction.  You're making it sound like they'll do a Taliban on the place... if they get elected then they'll have to stand for re-election - fair and square.


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## WolfeTone (7 Sep 2021)

odyssey06 said:


> But it was a necessary part of the peace process in the North as part of power sharing.



It was a necessary part of the peace process in the South too. Most people had moved on but constitutionally this State still recognised Britain as an occupying force. 
Britain also considered this States territorial claim over the North as a hostile act. Its why there was no official head of State visit between the two countries since partition. 

It is hypocrisy to laud the power-sharing government in the North but to pour scorn at the mere prospect of SF holding power in the South. 
The only way SF will get power in the South is if enough people vote for them. The only scorn that should pour is on those that try to deny the democratic will of the people.


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## WolfeTone (7 Sep 2021)

peemac said:


> Maybe apologize for how it was brought to cabinet, but no apologies for the appointment.



I don't think anyone is doubting the credentials of Zappone to perform the function. 
But an apology now would be very late in the day. It would only spark an inquiry into why the apology was not forthcoming in the first place. 
I pretty much hate this end of politics. Its pure media theatre, point scoring, mud slinging. But unfortunately it is the name of the game. They set themselves up to hold the highest standards of public office. There is little room to step out of that.


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## joe sod (8 Sep 2021)

The big surprise in all this is why did Coveny and Varadker feel so compelled to assuage zappone, she was an ex minister not even of the fine Gael party. I doubt if the shoe was on the other foot zappone would be helping them out. Why did they not just say NO


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## Purple (8 Sep 2021)

WolfeTone said:


> So Barry Cowen had a misdemeanour and lost his port folio, but Coveney stays on?


Well I think driving without a licence for years, and therefore no insurance, is a bit more than a misdemeanour. I also dislike the gombeen wing of FF so was happy to see him off back down to the parish pump.


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## Purple (8 Sep 2021)

WolfeTone said:


> They set themselves up to hold the highest standards of public office.


Unfortunately those people don't get elected. Our politicians are a reflection of the people who elected them, for good and bad.


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## Ceist Beag (8 Sep 2021)

WolfeTone said:


> It is hypocrisy to laud the power-sharing government in the North but to pour scorn at the mere prospect of SF holding power in the South.


With all due respect WT I don't think there are many in the Republic lauding the parties involved in power-sharing in the North. What has been lauded is the fact that power-sharing exists up there. However the parties involved in power-sharing in the North have behaved in a way that is absolutely not laudable. They have at times been an embarrassment and are very much a part of why people in the South would not want SF in power down here. I think you are mixing up praise for the institution with praise for the parties involved.


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## WolfeTone (8 Sep 2021)

Ceist Beag said:


> With all due respect WT I don't think there are many in the Republic lauding the parties involved in power-sharing in the North.



I know, I wasn't suggesting it was the parties themselves being lauded. An oxymoron in the political sphere. 
It is the existence of power sharing between two sworn enemies that is lauded. 
It's same in the South. We have a power sharing arrangement in place and I would be inclined to heap praise on the leadership of FF/FG if it weren't for my thinking that they are 20/30yrs behind mood of the people. 

It's nothing to do with any respective party. It's to do with political enemies/opponents taking pragmatic decisions to ensure political stability in the country - that is what is to be lauded.


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## peemac (8 Sep 2021)

WolfeTone said:


> I don't think anyone is doubting the credentials of Zappone to perform the function.
> But an apology now would be very late in the day. It would only spark an inquiry into why the apology was not forthcoming in the first place.
> I pretty much hate this end of politics. Its pure media theatre, point scoring, mud slinging. But unfortunately it is the name of the game. They set themselves up to hold the highest standards of public office. There is little room to step out of that.


Apology now is definitely too late. It should have been done and dusted the evening of the original cabinet meeting.

But I suspect that the cabinet minister who leaked the original story is not going to be on any FG/FF Christmas card lists. The next reshuffle will tell all


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## SGWidow (8 Sep 2021)

Could I ask everyone who has participated in this thread by posting or liking 2 questions please?

In relation to Zap being offered a job in March......

1. Do you believe it matters if Cov is telling the truth?

2. Do you believe Cov is telling the truth?

We don't have a survey system here - so I am just looking for Yes/No/Unsure answers here. I think the results will be informative. *Please just yes/no/unsure....*

For me, it's

1. Yes
2. No


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## Brendan Burgess (8 Sep 2021)

Could I ask a third question? 

Did no one get my joke in the first post? 

This was not intended to be a serious thread. 

Brendan


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## Brendan Burgess (8 Sep 2021)

And a 4th and 5th question. 

4. Is Coveney human and subject to human error? 
5. If he is subject to human error, should that disqualify him from being a government Minister?


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## Ceist Beag (8 Sep 2021)

And a 6th and 7th question

6. Do you believe this story warrants the amount of time and attention it has consumed (in political circles and in the media)?
7 (somewhat along the lines of what Peemac referred to above) Do you believe the resulting actions from all of this time and attention will leave us in a better place?


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## Duke of Marmalade (8 Sep 2021)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Could I ask a third question?
> 
> Did no one get my joke in the first post?
> 
> ...


Purple and I got the pun.  Joke might be a misrepresentation.


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## SGWidow (8 Sep 2021)

Well the early tallies scream what I suspected about yee lot!  

And, of course, I always suspected that straight answers to straight questions would be a bit of an ask.

Just my opinion! No more of it.

All this just helps the inexotable rise of SF. After all, we get the politicians we deserve....


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## Purple (8 Sep 2021)

My answers are;

Not really
Kind of, sort of, mostly, I don’t care
Eventually
Yes
No
No
No


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## Leper (8 Sep 2021)

When all is said and done . . . . . . the Catherine Zappone/Simon Coveney story got the same billing this week as soft plastic being now acceptable in Plastic Waste bins so let's hope that's the end of it.

But No! - When all is said and done, there's always a lot more said, than done.


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## peemac (8 Sep 2021)

I just read that the "salary" for this part-time appointment was in the region of €13,000. No wonder Zappone  withdrew when it became a political football.

€13K! - Before tax!

sf's Aongus O'Snodaigh spent 4 times that on Ink cartridges (paid for by the Tax payer) in  2007/8 and sf justified it saying that he "printed a lot". 


Pity FG / FF don't kick back at sf. "We were getting a year of representation at the UN for less than the price of 6 months ink cartridge use by Aongus O'Snodaigh"


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## Purple (8 Sep 2021)

peemac said:


> I just read that the "salary" for this part-time appointment was in the region of €13,000. No wonder Zappone  withdrew when it became a political football.
> 
> €13K! - Before tax!
> 
> ...


She may have been interested in the Diplomatic Passport for getting over and back. 
She may also have been interested in the role and the good that she thought she could do.


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## SGWidow (8 Sep 2021)

Purple said:


> She may also have been interested in the role and the good that she thought she could do.



Sure Purple,

She's bright enuff so that she is capable of influencing the hearts and minds at UN level and simultaneously intellectually challenged to the point that she didn't understand that she was being offered a concept.

I find the contributions to this thread depressing.


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## Seagull (8 Sep 2021)

13000 salary, but what are the travel and expenses benefits like?


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## Duke of Marmalade (8 Sep 2021)

WolfeTone said:


> I know, I wasn't suggesting it was the parties themselves being lauded. An oxymoron in the political sphere.
> It is the existence of power sharing between two sworn enemies that is lauded.
> It's same in the South. We have a power sharing arrangement in place and I would be inclined to heap praise on the leadership of FF/FG if it weren't for my thinking that they are 20/30yrs behind mood of the people.
> 
> It's nothing to do with any respective party. It's to do with political enemies/opponents taking pragmatic decisions to ensure political stability in the country - that is what is to be lauded.


sorry my dear Wolfie but @Ceist Beag caught you out completely


			
				Wolfe Tone said:
			
		

> It is hypocrisy to laud the power-sharing government in the North but to pour scorn at the mere prospect of SF holding power in the South.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## WolfeTone (8 Sep 2021)

You're a funny guy sometimes @Duke of Marmalade. 

The Sunningdale-ites still despair. How can it be that the moderates are squeezed out of power-sharing? 

It's called democratic mandates. 

Those 'extremes' are the reason why Sunningdale would never work. It doesn't seem to register with you but I will say it again. If you try to exclude extreme positions, those that hold significant quarter in the communities they come from, then any political agreement is already walking with one hand tied behind its back. 
Sunningdale failed because it had no political leaders to sell it to loyalist extremists. 
GFA is prevailing because Loyalist and Republicans were part architects of it. 

SF have travelled an imperfect road into constitutional politics. Pretty much like FF and FG before them. But now they are in the tent of constitutional politics by virtue of a democratic mandate, it is wholly hypocritical to pour scorn on their participation in government in the South on nothing more than some failed Sunningdale elitist view. 

Slow learners indeed.


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## Duke of Marmalade (8 Sep 2021)

@WolfeTone
I think that SF being part of this country's government would be an absolute disaster.  That is irrespective of any democratic mandate they might get (I will resist falling foul of Godwin's Law).
But I think SF sharing power (on and off) with Paisleyites in a glorified county council is preferable to their military wing lining up innocent Protestants and machine gunning them to death.
You call that hypocrisy.  Can you withdraw that slur, please.


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## WolfeTone (8 Sep 2021)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> But I think SF sharing power (on and off) with Paisleyites in a glorified county council is preferable to their military wing lining up innocent Protestants and machining them to death.



Yes of course it is. What that has to do with them being in power in the South i do not know?


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## Duke of Marmalade (8 Sep 2021)

WolfeTone said:


> Yes of course it is. What that has to do with them being in power in the South i do not know?


It was you who said supporting the first whilst opposing the second was hypocrisy.  It was you who made the linkage - stop wriggling.


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## WolfeTone (8 Sep 2021)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> It was you who said supporting the first whilst opposing the second was hypocrisy. It was you who made the linkage



Yes it is. 
What it has to do with Kingsmill (I assume that is the reference) I don't know. Please explain. The only inference I can take from it is that you think that if SF get into power in South it will lead to a return of such massacres? 
Is this really what you think?


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## SGWidow (9 Sep 2021)

The Irish Times view on Simon Coveney and the Zappone affair: a debacle of his own making
					

Many will see the episode as yet another glimpse into a club whose members look out for their own




					www.irishtimes.com
				




Neat summary of Coveney's 5 undisputed errors.

In addition of course, anyone that I respect with whom I have spoken on the fiasco doesn't believe his version of events.

Personally, I think - and I seem clearly and depressingly to be in the minority here - it's sad that people don't seem to care if Coveney is lying or not.


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## Ceist Beag (9 Sep 2021)

WolfeTone said:


> Yes it is.
> What it has to do with Kingsmill (I assume that is the reference) I don't know. Please explain. The only inference I can take from it is that you think that if SF get into power in South it will lead to a return of such massacres?
> Is this really what you think?


Wolfie you really have a habit of twisting views to suit your own argument - either that or you really fail to grasp the obvious. I'll try and spell it out.

1. SF in Government in the North is preferable to SF supporters toting guns and killing innocent people.
2. SF in Government in the North have performed pretty abysmally and show that they really lack the maturity to be a party in power.
3. Those of us watching on in the Republic can see this and a lot (the next election will tell us if there are enough) of us really fear seeing SF in Government down here given how they have performed up North.


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## Ceist Beag (9 Sep 2021)

SGWidow said:


> The Irish Times view on Simon Coveney and the Zappone affair: a debacle of his own making
> 
> 
> Many will see the episode as yet another glimpse into a club whose members look out for their own
> ...


In any walk of life people make mistakes. There is no doubt Coveney has made a pigs ear of this and there is also no doubt that his story has changed. However is it really a story that warrants his sacking or resignation? Do we really want to lose someone who has performed really well in his role outside of this one story? Obviously the opposition would love to take out such a high profile minister, for them it's not about what is best for the country here.
For those trying to equate this with Barry Cowan as well, it's a real apples and oranges comparison.


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## Peanuts20 (9 Sep 2021)

Ceist Beag said:


> In any walk of life people make mistakes. There is no doubt Coveney has made a pigs ear of this and there is also no doubt that his story has changed. However is it really a story that warrants his sacking or resignation? Do we really want to lose someone who has performed really well in his role outside of this one story? Obviously the opposition would love to take out such a high profile minister, for them it's not about what is best for the country here.
> For those trying to equate this with Barry Cowan as well, it's a real apples and oranges comparison.



totally agree, this is a non-story and there are far bigger fish to fry at the minute.  Zappone was largely useless as a minister and a TD (and her own constituents rapidly realised that) and FG made a complete manure heap of it but aside from that, it's an irrelevance. 

Sinn Fein better be cleaner then clean if and when they get into office


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## SGWidow (9 Sep 2021)

Can I take it - Peemac and Ceist Beag - that you don't care if Coveney lied at the committee meeting? If you do care that he lied (my belief, no more), please state this unequivocally.


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## Ceist Beag (9 Sep 2021)

What outcome do you want to see here SGWidow? Do you want to see him resign or be sacked? Care has a whole lot of different levels. I care if my team lose a game but I tend to get over it pretty quickly. I care if the dog chews my slippers but I can always buy another pair. So yeah I care that Coveney lied but I don't want to see him lose his job over it. What do you want to see happen?


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## SGWidow (9 Sep 2021)

My belief is that Coveney was lying.

I want our leaders to not tell lies whilst simultaneously requesting, as he did at the committee shambles, for us believe in his integrity. Now that's hyprocisy.

I believe this stuff matters because I believe that this type of behaviour just hastens - for reasons that should be obvious - the day when the Sinners will be able to say _tá ár lá tagtha......_

I believe that this is the last thing either of us wants!


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## Ceist Beag (9 Sep 2021)

So do you want him sacked then?


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## SGWidow (9 Sep 2021)

I think Coveney should do the honourable thing himself _and_ tell the truth _and_ show genuine integrity.

If he is sacked, _tiocfaidh ár lá _becomes _tagann ár lá _- again for reasons that should be obvious!


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## Purple (9 Sep 2021)

SGWidow said:


> I think Coveney should do the honourable thing himself _and_ tell the truth _and_ show genuine integrity.
> 
> If he is sacked, _tiocfaidh ár lá _becomes _tagann ár lá _- again for reasons that should be obvious!


Does that mean you think he should resign?


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## SGWidow (9 Sep 2021)

Jeepers Purple - there's a job in the Special Branch for you!


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## Purple (9 Sep 2021)

SGWidow said:


> Jeepers Purple - there's a job in the Special Branch for you!


The Blue Shirts (FG)had The Heavy Gang in the 70's. Maybe we could get that operational again.


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## WolfeTone (9 Sep 2021)

Ceist Beag said:


> 1. SF in Government in the North is preferable to SF supporters toting guns and killing innocent people.
> 2. SF in Government in the North have performed pretty abysmally and show that they really lack the maturity to be a party in power.
> 3. Those of us watching on in the Republic can see this and a lot (the next election will tell us if there are enough) of us really fear seeing SF in Government down here given how they have performed up North.



I must have missed this.

I actually really do not care about SF getting into government. I don't hold them in great light either for their performance in the North. But I really dont hold much light for any political party. It mostly one big circus, as this thread is identifying. 
At the end of the day once in power they tend to all be very similar. And that is my perception if SF get into power here. Some think the worst, personally I think they will just become part of the political furniture like the rest of them. 

I do take exception to the 'maturity' jibes. I think its infantile, arrogant and patronizing. At the end of the day it is the electorate who will decide and if the electorate give them a strong enough mandate then that is it. 
SF increasing popularity is good for a UI. Not because SF will deliver a UI, they won't. But because it will wake nationalist Ireland from its slumber and force FF/FG/SDLP into one All Ireland party, taking alot of SF votes with them, including perhaps my own.
At least that is my theory. 

And keeping on topic, Im sure Catherine Zappone agrees.


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## kinnjohn (9 Sep 2021)

Peanuts20 said:


> totally agree, this is a non-story and there are far bigger fish to fry at the minute.  Zappone was largely useless as a minister and a TD (and her own constituents rapidly realised that) and FG made a complete manure heap of it but aside from that, it's an irrelevance.
> 
> Sinn Fein better be cleaner then clean if and when they get into office


The sad part is SF does not have to be cleaner than clean, the bar is set a lot lower than that by the very people who want us to believe they hold themselves to a higher standard than SF,


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## Delboy (9 Sep 2021)

Peanuts20 said:


> totally agree, this is a non-story and there are far bigger fish to fry at the minute.  Zappone was largely useless as a minister and a TD (and her own constituents rapidly realised that) and FG made a complete manure heap of it but aside from that, it's an irrelevance.
> 
> Sinn Fein better be cleaner then clean if and when they get into office


The Media, Commentators and most Politicians I've heard speak on this mess all seem to think Zappone was some sort of genius and that she was more than qualified for the job ! To even suggest otherwise would suggest your a backward gombeen.


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## SGWidow (10 Sep 2021)

kinnjohn said:


> The sad part is SF does not have to be cleaner than clean, the bar is set a lot lower than that by the very people who want us to believe they hold themselves to a higher standard than SF,



This diminution of standards just gets cemented if FF deputies all vote confidence in Coveney and his fairytales. It really is a big mess.


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## Purple (10 Sep 2021)

SGWidow said:


> This diminution of standards just gets cemented if FF deputies all vote confidence in Coveney and his fairytales. It really is a big mess.


Diminution of standards? 
Are you suggesting that this is worse than Bertie's carry on? Of CJ Haughy? Or Cosgrave's Heavy Gang? Or the Galway tent? Or the issuing of the ESat licence? Or collecting the killers of serving Gardaí from prison? Or funding your party with backhanders from developers or bank robberies? Or spending €50k on printer ink? Or turning a blind eye to child abuse? Or locking up unmarried mothers? Or taking €30,000 in Covid payments meant for small businesses and keeping them in your Party account? Or claiming that your Party members take lower salaries when they don't?

Diminution of standards? Are you joking?


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## SGWidow (10 Sep 2021)

You are right, Purple. Diminution was the wrong word to use. What I should of said is something like continuation of very low standards. Me bad. Sorry. [See how it should be done? Make a mistake. Put the hands up. Say sorry. Move on. ----------------------NOT, try to defend the indefensible!!!!  ]


_We get the governement we deserve_

How can anyone seriously have confidence in this guy? Listen to what he said to Bryan Dobson at the end of July? *In my opinion,* he was lying through his teeth and had the audacity to do so in a tone suggesting that he was genuinely perplexed and frustrated that his integrity was being questioned. Note also the haughty way he tried to lecture Dobson. Not to be missed also is the clip from Zappo at the start - which given what we now know - is both _comedy gold_ and deeply depressing.









						News At One Friday 30 July 2021
					

News, sport, business and interviews presented by Bryan Dobson.




					www.rte.ie
				





_Oh what tangled webs we weave, when first we practice to deceive......_


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## SGWidow (10 Sep 2021)

Interesting tweet from Eric Eckhart

_Micheál Martin said on @morningireland he'll sanction Fianna Fáil TDs who refuse to vote confidence in FG's Simon Coveney but won't sanction Coveney who was caught red-handed in cronyism, misleading the Dáil committee & deleting messages on gov't business_

There's something really rotten in the body _pollythick_


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## Sophrosyne (10 Sep 2021)

SGWidow said:


> There's something really rotten in the body _pollythick_


It's the unchanging way of the world.

"We'd all like to vote for the best man but he's never a candidate". Kin Hubbard, 1868-1930. _US cartoonist, humourist and journalist._


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## kinnjohn (10 Sep 2021)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> @WolfeTone
> I think that SF being part of this country's government would be an absolute disaster.  That is irrespective of any democratic mandate they might get,


The only way to keep SF out of being part of this Country  Government
 Is for the established parties to hold one another to account,
I am just after reading today's news were the people right at the top of FF are making the case because the position was part-time it is a very minor offense,
 In  generations past, FF/FG/Lab have been famous for using Pull to get people into positions below their Qualifications into the public service on a part-time basis and then using the internal recruitment system to parachute them into the job they really were after without having to advertise or make it open to the public
I thought all that changed years ago But I suspect not,
I wonder how many of these part-time positions become a full-time position or a launching pad to other full-time positions, without advertising the positions at a later date to other well Qualified people,

The Established parties Including Labour who do not see anything wrong with the present appointment are leaving the door open to SF to awaken the public to how jobs were given out in the distant past,
and wondering is it still going on,


----------



## Duke of Marmalade (10 Sep 2021)

kinnjohn said:


> The only way to keep SF out of being part of this Country  Government
> Is for the established parties to hold one another to account,
> I am just after reading today's news were the people right at the top of FF are making the case because the position was part-time it is a very minor offense,
> In  generations past, FF/FG/Lab have been famous for using Pull to get people into positions below their Qualifications into the public service on a part-time basis and then using the internal recruitment system to parachute them into the job they really were after without having to advertise or make it open to the public
> ...


And whilst we are discussing SF, look at all the SPA jobs given to convicted terrorists in the North.


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## kinnjohn (10 Sep 2021)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> And whilst we are discussing SF, look at all the SPA jobs given to convicted terrorists in the North.


Back in the 1990s, I had a daughter who needed limb-sparing surgery after cancer, I was put in touch with victims of the trouble up north who had limb-sparing surgery as a result of the violence I traveled up there and I know from the conversations I had the came from different backgrounds,
My first thoughts were how lucky I was not to have been born into such a festering environment,
I remember thinking I would never vote for the UUP for allowing such a festering environment to develop,
I also remember thinking I would never vote for the DUP or SF/IRA because they were stroking the fire of hate, resulting in people going out and killing and injuring other human beings up the road from me,

I was glad to be back on this side of the fence so to speak, I care deeply about  high standards  in public office

in my lifetime I saw lots of low standards of TDs pulling strings and strokes getting people jobs,
one of the biggest strokes pullers was for TDs and  Co Councillors along with local union reps getting people  jobs part-time and then filling the full-time  positions limiting the applications to people already in employed including part-timers,

I am not sure you understand the memories that are being awakened by the present controversy and the bad light it is shining on the main political parties past down here,

I am just after seeing on RTE Mr. Martins statement A man I have great respect for I will quote you a section of it,
Are we seriously suggesting that the appointment of a part-time envoy in itself justifies a vote of no confidence in a Minister, I think that is not proportional or balanced,
Sadly he is out of touch with peoples view of FF past,
It reminds me of the last time FF was up every tree in a certain part of Dublin and could see no wrongdoing,


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## Duke of Marmalade (10 Sep 2021)

kinnjohn said:


> Back in the 1990s, I had a daughter who needed limb-sparing surgery after cancer, I was put in touch with victims of the trouble up north who had limb-sparing surgery as a result of the violence I traveled up there and I know from the conversations I had the came from different backgrounds,
> My first thoughts were how lucky I was not to have been born into such a festering environment,
> I remember thinking I would never vote for the UUP for allowing such a festering environment to develop,
> I also remember thinking I would never vote for the DUP or SF/IRA because they were stroking the fire of hate, resulting in people going out and killing and injuring other human beings up the road from me,
> ...


I was born and raised in the Orange state.  I guess that dulls one’s sensibilities.  I just find it hard to be scandalised by Zapponegate.


----------



## kinnjohn (10 Sep 2021)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> I was born and raised in the Orange state.  I guess that dulls one’s sensibilities.  I just find it hard to be scandalised by Zapponegate.


I was born the other side of the fence, Over the last 25 years lots of things that dull ones sensibilities got removed,
I want to keep it going in that direction,
The Zapponegate scandal was started by a FG Minister breaking cabinet Confidentiality to damage a rival Minister from the same party,
Nothing to do with SF except to give a dig out to a possible future leader of FG,

GOOGLE Minister rumbled in an extraordinary leak,

The question in peoples minds is how many more Zappongates scandals and taxpayers money get squandered  we never hear about where the main political parties cover up for one another,

SF thrives on awakening people whenever the main political parties get caught out still using pull and creating nonexistent jobs to reward their own, SF are getting two for the price of one out of Zapponegate,+ an added bonus from the Duke and others using your above quote find it hard to be scandalized by Zapponegate,,


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## SGWidow (11 Sep 2021)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> I was born and raised in the Orange state.  I guess that dulls one’s sensibilities.  I just find it hard to be scandalised by Zapponegate.



I guess our moral compasses point us in different directions. Personally, I think that a Minister clearly lying and lacking in integrity is a big deal. If your mileage varies, fair enuff.


----------



## joe sod (11 Sep 2021)

noproblem said:


> I remember reading about Boxer Moran from Athlone (I think) and how difficult he found it after losing his seat. It was very sad to read his story. Personally have no affiliation with the man, but always thought he was hard working and a people's person.


Boxer Moran was in the exact same position as K Zappone with regards to the last government, he supported the government the same as Zappone did and lost his seat in the last election. I wonder if Boxer Moran rang Coveney or Varadker from "Sean's bar" in Athlone, rather than "the piglet"  looking for a made up job with regard to the shannon , how would he be received ? He would not be entertained because he was not in the golden circle that Zappone was even though they are the exact same position politically


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## noproblem (11 Sep 2021)

joe sod said:


> Boxer Moran was in the exact same position as K Zappone with regards to the last government, he supported the government the same as Zappone did and lost his seat in the last election. I wonder if Boxer Moran rang Coveney or Varadker from "Sean's bar" in Athlone, rather than "the piglet"  looking for a made up job with regard to the shannon , how would he be received ? He would not be entertained because he was not in the golden circle that Zappone was even though they are the exact same position politically


He had no job after the election, couldn't collect social welfare as they don't qualify, and only for family and friends would probably have come to a bad end. He's an ordinary bloke, did his best and there's a good few in Dáil Eireann who do similar. Like every job, there's others there who for whatever reason always get elected and might not be as hard working. The majority of TD's today though, in my opinion, do a job that's thankless. As I say, it's my opinion, others disagree and that's fine, but getting personal and verbally attacking them should never be accepted in any walk of life.


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## kinnjohn (12 Sep 2021)

noproblem said:


> He had no job after the election, couldn't collect social welfare as they don't qualify, and only for family and friends would probably have come to a bad end. He's an ordinary bloke, did his best and there's a good few in Dáil Eireann who do similar. Like every job, there's others there who for whatever reason always get elected and might not be as hard working. The majority of TD's today though, in my opinion, do a job that's thankless. As I say, it's my opinion, others disagree and that's fine, but getting personal and verbally attacking them should never be accepted in an


Hi
I think this was the first poster on the tread about increasing the pension age If I am wrong I am sorry,
are you sure it is Boxer you are quoting,
not only do I know Boxer I also know some of the taxi drivers who worked for his taxi company He always made sure they were on the books correctly and paying PRSI,I knew Boxer as a hard-working  businessman long before he went into politics and a very hardworking politician even before he got elected,
Boxer would not be winging he would have known he was paying a total of 4 % payroll to the Government while the taxi drivers working in his company seen around 18.5% of payroll going to the Government falling to around 14% after the TROIKA arrived,

 Boxer  went out to serve his time as an apprentice carpenter in the building Industry knowing well most of the people he worked with started working at 14/15 or at a push16 years of age and will have worked and paid PRSI for 50/51 years by the time they reach 65 I know well he would not like to be connected with expecting them to work another two years before receiving the contributory pension,


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## joer (14 Sep 2021)

This whole Zappone mess is playing right in to Sinn Fein hands. It should be over at this stage but it rumbles on and on. 
The shinners are lapping it up, whether we like it or not.


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## Purple (14 Sep 2021)

joer said:


> This whole Zappone mess is playing right in to Sinn Fein hands. It should be over at this stage but it rumbles on and on.
> The shinners are lapping it up, whether we like it or not.


I heard Mary Lou on Morning Ireland getting her usual armchair ride of an interview.
Contrasted to the hatchet job they did on FG yesterday it's laughable how the Shinners have become the darlings of the unionised media.


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## SGWidow (14 Sep 2021)

You can't have it both ways, Purple!

Meaning you can't yourself be completely ambivalent about the skullduggery here and somehow expect standards generally to improve. That would be like expecting you to post outside the working week - it ain't going to happen!  [Just teasing.......a little]

Joer's central point is correct - the shower that benefits most from this are sinners.


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## Duke of Marmalade (14 Sep 2021)

I really want to be righteously angry with Coveney on this, after all he is responsible for the NI protocol.  But I just don't see the victims, or the egregious self enrichment or the naked nepotism that I demand of my scandals.  Now CJH knew how to do scandal.


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## SGWidow (14 Sep 2021)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> But I just don't see this, or that or the other that I demand of my scandals.



I get it. Repeatedly lying is not enuff for you. You want more and are not alone here. I'm amongst the outliers. 

May I ask some genuine questions? The code of conduct for actuaries presumably prescribes that actuaries act honestly and with integrity. Do you subscribe to such notions? Should a government minister have a lower professional standard?

Anyway, I written a song

_Oh when the sinners,
When the sinners.
When the sinners go marching in 
I don't want to be 
In that number
When the sinners go marching in_


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## Ceist Beag (14 Sep 2021)

SGWidow genuine question, how do you ever bring yourself to vote for anyone? You know well that every single politician who puts themselves up for election changes their story if/once elected. You call it lying, politicians no doubt call it a misunderstanding.


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## Purple (14 Sep 2021)

SGWidow said:


> I get it. Repeatedly lying is not enuff for you. You want more and are not alone here. I'm amongst the outliers.
> 
> May I ask some genuine questions? The code of conduct for actuaries presumably prescribes that actuaries act honestly and with integrity. Do you subscribe to such notions? Should a government minister have a lower professional standard?


I heard some 'wan on the radio running for the Blueshirts in Dún Laoghaire–Rathdown in the last election saying that politicians should have the same standards as 'Professionals' since, at their level, they were almost professionals. Thankfully she wasn't elected as that sort of elitist rubbish really gets to me.

Are you suggesting that actuaries don't tell lies? If they do and they are caught are the struck off?
What about solicitors? They've hardly covered themselves in glory in the last few decades. Do they get struck off if they are caught lying?
What about doctors? What does it take for them to get struck off their professional register? Writing prescriptions for themselves, using class A drugs, tax evasion etc are all dealt with without them being struck off.
Then there's the newer groups that now call themselves professional like Engineers and Teachers and Nurses and Architects. Are you seriously suggesting that they all adhere to their 'professional' code of conduct and that any who don't are struck off? Should every nurse that steals from a hospital (and that's a big chunk of them) get struck off? What about Teachers doing nixers and not paying their taxes? Should they be fired?


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## Purple (14 Sep 2021)

Ceist Beag said:


> SGWidow genuine question, how do you ever bring yourself to vote for anyone? You know well that every single politician who puts themselves up for election changes their story if/once elected. You call it lying, politicians no doubt call it a misunderstanding.


Politics is the art of the possible. In a representative democracy things are done through negotiation, not dictate. Therefore every one of them who wants to be effective has to compromise.


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## SGWidow (14 Sep 2021)

Good man, Purple.........in just before the lunch break - fair play!

Seriously, am happy to answer questions once Duke responds. There's too much evasion of questions here - in my opinion  I'm a FAFA gal......_first asked, first answered_


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## Duke of Marmalade (14 Sep 2021)

SGWidow said:


> I get it. Repeatedly lying is not enuff for you. You want more and are not alone here. I'm amongst the *outliers*.


True story.  It's a long time ago so my misdemeanour is probably covered by the statute of limitations.  But I was stopped by a Garda at Leeson St.  Bridge who asked was I aware that I had been in the bus lane.  I said "no".  He then asked me where I worked and advised me that people who work for banks should be honest (it was before the Anglo meltdown).  This guy was an *Out Liar* for sure.  I was ashamed and indeed my cover up was worse than the original offence of driving in the bus lane.  
But still I think we need a bit of proportion when it comes to Outing Liars - where are the victims, where is the greed etc.


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## Purple (14 Sep 2021)

SGWidow said:


> Good man, Purple.........in just before the lunch break - fair play!
> 
> Seriously, am happy to answer questions once Duke responds. There's too much evasion of questions here - in my opinion  I'm a FAFA gal......_first asked, first answered_


T'is a staggered lunch break but I'm not complaining.

It would be lovely if everyone behaved in an exemplary manner all the time but they don't.
Labour probably have the best record in that regard, followed by FG, then there's aa fair bit of open ground, then there's FF and then there's the child killers that we both want to keep out of office.


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## kinnjohn (14 Sep 2021)

I don't want to get involved in this discussion it saddens me to see how the main political parties including what is left of Labour set the bar so low and leave the door open so SF look good,
For the first time in my lifetime, FF under Michael Martin acted as the main Government party should and removed Ministers whose actions did not reflect what the Government under Michael Martin stood for,
The leader of the opposition Mary Lou leader soon found herself in the same position over Covid 19 grants worth 33K as Michael, Martin,

 Elisha McCallion apologized unreservedly for her poor judgement and resigned as a member of Seanad Eireann with immediate effect, Mary Lou also issued an apology saying she wished to acknowledge and apologise for these failures two other members of SF also resigned,

I was wondering could the Government and SF keep it up until the next General election well we know who won that contest,
Mary Lou Earned her armchair ride,
 Michael / LEO and Eamon are getting Their well-earned hatchet job,


Purple said:


> I heard Mary Lou on Morning Ireland getting her usual armchair ride of an interview.
> Contrasted to the hatchet job they did on FG yesterday it's laughable how the Shinners have become the darlings of the unionised media.



hatchet job


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## Duke of Marmalade (14 Sep 2021)

SGWidow said:


> I get it. Repeatedly lying is not enuff for you. You want more and are not alone here. I'm amongst the outliers.
> 
> May I ask some genuine questions? The code of conduct for actuaries presumably prescribes that actuaries act honestly and with integrity. Do you subscribe to such notions? Should a government minister have a lower professional standard?


I thought my response #87 answered these questions but for total clarity.

_The code of conduct for actuaries presumably prescribes that actuaries act honestly and with integrity._ *It does.*
_Do you subscribe to such notions?_* I do.*
_Should a government minister have a lower professional standard? _*No.*

I haven't been following the minutiae of this Kapponegate but I accept your assessment that Coveney has not lived up to this standard.
For me it is a question of the proportionality of any consequences for Coveney and indeed the proportionality of the reaction of the body politic and the media. 
So even accepting your assessment that he lied I personally do not think that he should be fired.  Even SF kept us guessing as to whether they thought he should be fired, finally deciding they had more to gain form the political theatre of a no confidence motion.

So a question from me to you.  Do you think sacking Coveney is a proportionate response?


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## SGWidow (14 Sep 2021)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> Do you think sacking Coveney is a proportionate response?



He should be sanctioned because he repeatedly told lies and has got other ministers involved in the porkies. For my sins, I did get under the bonnet on this one.

What are the range of sanctions available in respect of a minister lying and collaborating with other ministers in such lies?

As you will, no doubt, have worked out, I'm a very reasonable and sympathetic person - so I am coming to understand that perhaps I should be a little more proportionate and shouldn't call for Simon's head - just maybe his legs and arms. So I could live with his demotion. If was good enough for Coveney's old man, it's good enough for sincere Simon! [Did you know that apart from the reason old man Coveney got demoted - he (Hugh) also had money in those infamous off-shore accounts of yesteryear - a fact which Mr Integrity (Simon) strenoulsy denied. Trouble is, the off-shore money did show up alright.]

Yes demotion it is. More proportionate (but obviously less......clean-cut) than the guillotine but still serves the remove the smug faux-earnest halo worn by sincere Simon!

All this is just my opinion. It will be very interesting what savaging Purple will inflict on my feeble thoughts - presumably we'll all have to wait until the morning at this stage?!


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## Duke of Marmalade (14 Sep 2021)

@SGWidow I have from past engagements found you a clued in type of gal.  So I did try to meet you on Zapponegate but failed.  I think a suitable punishment for Simon would be 3 Hail Marys and 50 quid in the black babies' box.
Not that I am a fan of Simon's, as I say he way overplayed the green card on Brexit.


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## WolfeTone (14 Sep 2021)

SGWidow said:


> So I could live with his demotion.



There is the problem right there.

With respect I think you are absolutely right on the technicalities and the letter of the rules and standards.
But you have avoided the real politik of the situation, and that is, as it always is, strength in numbers. And the reality is that the cosy, inside nature of awarding this position is not the juicy stroke-pulling of multi-million euro contracts, home extensions and extravagant lifestyles of yesteryear. It was tokenistic.

Albeit in principle you are correct, Coveney has built a lot of political capital for himself and this episode is going to damage it but not derail it all.

And what punishment should he have to endure? That is subjective. Some want sackcloth and ashes, others just his arms and legs. The rest, a simple reprimand will do.
What is the appropriate penalty? The strength in numbers determines that.

That said, it is a gift for SF. And as the political opposition they are totally right to try exploit it to the max. Albeit, personally speaking I don't envisage much capital to be gained out of it.


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## SGWidow (15 Sep 2021)

WolfeTone said:


> But you have avoided the real politik of the sit-ya-ation



So I'm being charged with real politik avoidance? Thank God for that. If it was real politik evasion, I'd be in right hot water. [Sorry, the coffee is brewing....]


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## Purple (15 Sep 2021)

SGWidow said:


> Yes demotion it is. More proportionate (but obviously less......clean-cut) than the guillotine but still serves the remove the smug faux-earnest halo worn by sincere Simon!


I'd say your interest in this had as much or more to do with your personal dislike of Simon as it had to do with the substance of the issue but sure we're all guilty of that. 
In general when people are throwing stones at politicians (metaphorically, unless you're a Shinner) it's worth mentioning that they are a reflection of the public at large and the biggest gombeens are the ones that top the polls. We don't do accountability in this country, from the Churches to the public service, to doctors and teachers and builders and bankers to politicians.


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## kinnjohn (15 Sep 2021)

Purple said:


> I'd say your interest in this had as much or more to do with your personal dislike of Simon as it had to do with the substance of the issue but sure we're all guilty of that.
> In general when people are throwing stones at politicians (metaphorically, unless you're a Shinner) it's worth mentioning that they are a reflection of the public at large and the biggest gombeens are the ones that top the polls. We don't do accountability in this country, from the Churches to the public service, to doctors and teachers and builders and bankers to politicians.


Are you saying we should continue as before and let any gains in accountability slide back,

I think change  coming and people who hold views like you and I would be better served holding the main political parties to account
 when the present Government was formed Michael Martin was and  I suppose on paper still is head of the Government And FF knew their weakness was accountability in the public eye, and Michael set out to address

To outflank SF the new FF was all about accountability under Michael Martin as head when the present  government was formed,

Michael Martin has all but given up on the new FF  I suppose who could blame him he found it almost impossible to get enough ministers without having to dip into the old embedded Gombeen FF you correctly pointed out still get elected to make up the numbers,

now he seems to have handed the new accountable FF over to the Gombeens in FF and The gombeens in other political parties and in the process
allow Mary LOU to finish picking anything of the good off the carcass of FF, There is a very good chance SF will take the new accountable part of FF  to make up for their past history, and leave the Gombeens to FG,


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## SGWidow (15 Sep 2021)

kinnjohn said:


> Are you saying we should continue as before and let any gains in accountability slide back,



Well that was my impression. Seems to be confirmed by the following ad:

COMING SOON

To a cinema near You

From Purple

- the people who brought us _"Beatings will continue until morale improves"_

The new Autumn Blockbuster

*"Lying, lobbying and cronyism will continue until standards improve"*

Starring........


----------



## Purple (15 Sep 2021)

SGWidow said:


> "Lying, lobbying and cronyism will continue until standards improve"


Lying, lobbying and cronyism will continue until the electorate stop electing people who Lie, lobby and engage in cronyism. 
Unfortunately the alternative on offer at the moment is a bunch of pseudo-socialist populist apologists for child killers (and actual child killers). 
Given that unsavoury scenario I'll take smug Simon, even smugger Leo and as-limp-as-a-wet-hanky Michael.  I'd take Paul Murphy ahead of the Shinners. As far as I know he's never robber a bank, disappeared anyone or blown up any Nuns or children and he doesn't make apologies for those who do.


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## SGWidow (15 Sep 2021)

Purple said:


> Given that unsavoury scenario I'll take smug Simon, even smugger Leo and as-limp-as-a-wet-hanky Michael.  I'd take Paul Murphy ahead of the Shinners.



Agreed. [Broadly, one can say that the Sinners are the evil of two lessers here.]




Purple said:


> Lying, lobbying and cronyism will continue until the electorate stop electing people who Lie, lobby and engage in cronyism.



is a variation of your earlier



Purple said:


> When people are throwing stones at politicians (metaphorically, unless you're a Shinner) it's worth mentioning that they are a reflection of the public at large



which is, I believe, a variation, of my earlier



SGWidow said:


> After all, we get the politicians we deserve....



See - we have some points in common!


----------



## Purple (15 Sep 2021)

SGWidow said:


> Agreed. [Broadly, one can say that the Sinners are the evil of two lessers here.]


I like and and intend plagiarise it.


SGWidow said:


> See - we have some points in common!


I never thought otherwise.


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## SGWidow (15 Sep 2021)

By the way, the action is on Oireachtas TV right now


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## SGWidow (15 Sep 2021)

Sorry lads.....

Just listened to Simon's speech. Without doubt, he deserves to be sacked! Seriously, what a sickening, truly depressing speech. I know my sense of proportionality will be called into question but honestly his speech was beyond brutal.

As a by the by, some of the support acts (speeches) - on both sides - were pure class - genuine comedy gold.
[I'm afraid to mention who the best speaker in the debate was coz yee'll think I'm taking the biscuit - and I'm probably need to move on from the thread!]


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## Peanuts20 (16 Sep 2021)

meanwhile a former Sinn Fein councillor in Dublin is going on trial for murder and that drops down the news list whilst the focus is on Zappone. I'm a bit of a cynic


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## Ceist Beag (16 Sep 2021)

SGWidow said:


> Sorry lads.....
> 
> Just listened to Simon's speech. Without doubt, he deserves to be sacked! Seriously, what a sickening, truly depressing speech. I know my sense of proportionality will be called into question but honestly his speech was beyond brutal.
> 
> ...


Well I listened to it and I completely disagree with you (quelle surprise eh!). I think the anger in his voice was completely justified and I'm just glad this whole charade is now over. As for SF, they once again showed their true colours in (mis)using Dail privilege to throw the name of Simon Harris into the mix as well. What a shower...


----------



## Duke of Marmalade (16 Sep 2021)

Ceist Beag said:


> Well I listened to it and I completely disagree with you (quelle surprise eh!). I think the anger in his voice was completely justified and I'm just glad this whole charade is now over. As for SF, they once again showed their true colours in (mis)using Dail privilege to throw the name of Simon Harris into the mix as well. What a shower...


These votes of no confidence are so predictable and follow party lines.  However,  perhaps there is some meaning to how the Independents voted and as it happened I think 12 voted for Coveney.  I need look no further; that for me proves the whole thing was totally overblown.


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## Purple (16 Sep 2021)

Peanuts20 said:


> meanwhile a former Sinn Fein councillor in Dublin is going on trial for murder and that drops down the news list whilst the focus is on Zappone. I'm a bit of a cynic


You're not allowed to talk about that sort of thing. He is probably a good republican and that trumps all.

I used to agree with you but now I'm a big fan of the Shinners (and not being sent to a Uighurs style re-education camp when they get into office).


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## SGWidow (16 Sep 2021)

Let's agree to differ on Coveney's faux-anger vomit!

Let's agree also that Independents voting not to face the risk and expense of a GE is a very, very silly baramoter! [Think Christmas and turkeys.]

Three things now need to happen.......

1. The RCYC should send a letter to Coveney expressing its surprise about his handling of the whole affair. In particular, the letter should note the disappointment of members in the lack of skill by which he handled the _job for the girls_ and its botched cover-up. 

2. Leo should have stern words with Harris about leaking stuff

3. FG should be rebrand to something which better describes its modus operandi. I've heard "Snakes and Leakers" being mentioned.




ONLY REPLY IF YOU'RE NOT IN TOTAL DISAGREEMENT WITH EVERY I'VE WRITTEN


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## Duke of Marmalade (16 Sep 2021)

SGWidow said:


> Let's agree also that Independents voting not to face the risk and expense of a GE is a very, very silly baramoter! [Think Christmas and turkeys.]


Not your usual rational self.  Everyone knew there wasn't a turkey's chance at Xmas of this vote going the Shinners' way even if every Indo got on board.  But let us consider your argument that our TDs vote mainly on one criterion - what it does for their future electoral chances.  12 independents have decided that supporting Coveney would go down better with their constituents.  That says something.


SGWidow said:


> ONLY REPLY IF YOU'RE NOT IN TOTAL DISAGREEMENT WITH EVERY I'VE WRITTEN


At least triple negatives there.  Not sure if my post is in breach of the decree


----------



## SGWidow (16 Sep 2021)

Maybe my last post could have been written slightly better alright!
I had thought my "very very silly" provocation would get a bit of reaction! - the trouble being it wasn't the reaction I had anticipated - OUCH.......................... I guess I'd better measure twice before attempting similar assertions in the future!


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## WolfeTone (16 Sep 2021)

Ceist Beag said:


> I'm just glad this whole charade is now over.



I think it's far from over.

Carthy has played a blinder in opposition terms. They weren't going to win the no-confidence vote in the Dáil, and the end of this affair was all but nigh.
But now Carty has forced government to take disciplinary action against him (meaning the details of this affair will air again some time soon) or they let it slip quietly by, a defacto acceptance that Carty is right and has said nothing that has not been peddling in media circles for sometime. *_See Tom Lyons (The Currency) twitter feed of 07 September._

But media are somewhat hamstrung, unable to expose their sources. Instead, FG did it for them.
Miriam Lords piece in IT from 07 September exposes the sting operation within the FG ranks.

This is what parliamentary politics is all about - theatre. And this is stuff is turning into award winning theatre.
If you are not enjoying this political omnishambles then there is simply no pleasing some people.


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## SGWidow (16 Sep 2021)

WolfeTone

You make me laugh! That last para is a classic!


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## Peanuts20 (16 Sep 2021)

Purple said:


> You're not allowed to talk about that sort of thing. He is probably a good republican and that trumps all.
> 
> I used to agree with you but now I'm a big fan of the Shinners (and not being sent to a Uighurs style re-education camp when they get into office).


 You mean the Gaeltacht with a refresher on Peig Sayers and the patriotic poetry of Padraig Pearse?


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## joer (16 Sep 2021)

I really hope that this is the end of this boring saga . It's time to move on , to the next problem.
Will that be Simon Harris ( who leaked what) or Michael D ( will he or why wont he attend).


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## kinnjohn (17 Sep 2021)

Purple said:


> I used to agree with you but now I'm a big fan of the Shinners (and not being sent to a Uighurs style re-education camp when they get into office).


no need to send you to a re-education camp judging by your posts in the last year or two life seems to be doing the job just fine


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## Ceist Beag (17 Sep 2021)

WolfeTone said:


> I think it's far from over.
> 
> Carthy has played a blinder in opposition terms. They weren't going to win the no-confidence vote in the Dáil, and the end of this affair was all but nigh.
> But now Carty has forced government to take disciplinary action against him (meaning the details of this affair will air again some time soon) or they let it slip quietly by, a defacto acceptance that Carty is right and has said nothing that has not been peddling in media circles for sometime. *_See Tom Lyons (The Currency) twitter feed of 07 September._
> ...


You said I was being infantile in saying SF lack political maturity. Imho Matt Carthy just proved my point. You said this is classic opposition politics. I say we have a very different view of what we want and expect from our opposition politicians.


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## WolfeTone (17 Sep 2021)

Ceist Beag said:


> You said I was being infantile in saying SF lack political maturity. Imho Matt Carthy just proved my point. You said this is classic opposition politics. I say we have a very different view of what we want and expect from our opposition politicians.



Absolutely it is classic opposition politics. I'm not exactly sure what it is you expect out of Dáil Éireann but I suspect you have unreasonably high expectations. 
Very little is ever achieved in the Dáil. It's just theatre for the public. And this great theatre. 
In political terms Carty has played a classic opposition hand. Zapponegate is all but history now, but dissent and division in government is all too obvious now. FF have their own problems which is clear, but now faultlines in the FG leadership are being exposed. Right up at the very top.


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## joe sod (17 Sep 2021)

joer said:


> I really hope that this is the end of this boring saga . It's time to move on , to the next problem.
> Will that be Simon Harris ( who leaked what) or Michael D ( will he or why wont he attend).


The Michael D controversy over not attending the  Armagh ceremony will now take over. According to John Bruton this morning he is not free himself to make these decisions he is bound constitutionally to inform the government, he quoted a very clear line from the constitution saying this. According to Bruton the government wasn't informed, the president is not a free agent he is an instrument of the government..
Of course the last thing the government now needs is this but the fact that John Bruton has weighed in means they can't now ignore it.


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## SGWidow (17 Sep 2021)

joe sod said:


> The Michael D controversy over not attending the  Armagh ceremony will now take over. According to John Bruton this morning he is not free himself to make these decisions he is bound constitutionally to inform the government, he quoted a very clear line from the constitution saying this.



Did John Bruton acknowledge that his interpretation of the Constitution was very robustly refuted br Diarmuid Ferriter last night? If not, that's bad as he is not presenting the full story. Then again he was in charge of Snakes and Leakers and he's Dicky's brother.



Ceist Beag said:


> I say we have a very different view of what we want and expect from our opposition politicians.



We certainly do! I'd like mine to tell the truth and if they are going to deviate from this, to at least make the ruse potentially credible!!




WolfeTone said:


> It's just theatre for the public. And this great theatre.



I have a little anecdote from an unimpeachable source..........seriously, I believe this story to be true - henceforth to be known as a non-coveneyed story.
When Mary O'Rourke was a young lass her dream was to be an actress. Her dad, Patrick Lenihan, told her that acting in the traditional sense was a precarious profession and that she'd be better off seeking to preform in the greatest Irish stage of them all, Leinster House. "To help you get there, no harm to have a teaching qualification", the story goes.....


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## Ceist Beag (17 Sep 2021)

SGWidow said:


> I'd like mine to tell the truth and if they are going to deviate from this, to at least make the ruse potentially credible!!


You also like yours to distract government from the job at hand and engage in frivolous matters in the interest of political theater. But hey you continue taking the high ground here...


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## Firefly (17 Sep 2021)

joer said:


> I really hope that this is the end of this boring saga . It's time to move on , to the next problem.


I agree. Far more important things going on at the moment. Brexit, climate change and of course...Garth Brooks!


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## SGWidow (18 Sep 2021)

From today's IT......

Sir, – In his eagerness never to miss an opportunity to criticise Sinn Féin, Stephen Collins betrays a misunderstanding of parliamentary opposition.

Of course Sinn Féin, Labour and the Social Democrats do not have confidence in Simon Coveney as Minister for Foreign Affairs and Defence. By definition, members of the Government do not enjoy the confidence of the Opposition. In the words of former British prime minister Edward Stanley, “The duty of an Opposition is very simple . . . to oppose everything and propose nothing”, although a party in Opposition which aspires to govern may find it politically advantageous to propose legislation that illustrates the policies it intends to enact in government – something Sinn Féin, Labour and the Social Democrats have done repeatedly.

As Stephen Collins points out, “The challenge facing the Coalition now is whether it can deliver on serious issues like housing, the budget and climate change”, but it should hardly come as a surprise that the Opposition does not have confidence in the Government to deliver on anything. That’s precisely why they oppose them. Fianna Fáil’s abstention in the vote of no confidence in Eoghan Murphy in December 2019 (which had been tabled by the Social Democrats, who were also criticised at the time as pulling a “political stunt”) was a clear indication that they were in sufficient agreement with Fine Gael on policy issues that they felt able to give confidence and supply to a Fine Gael minority government, and ultimately to enter coalition with them. Perhaps that’s why nobody outside the two parties can tell them apart.

Meanwhile, the parties that make up the Opposition are not in coalition with each other. That Labour and the Social Democrats oppose the Government for some of the same reasons as Sinn Féin indicates some policy compatibility that might lead them to enter government in coalition with Sinn Féin in future. But to argue that an Opposition party makes itself the “patsy” of another by voting no confidence in a Government it opposes is nonsense. Of course Labour and the Social Democrats could have abstained on the vote to “make a point”, but they obviously preferred to make the point that they (unsurprisingly for members of the Opposition) have no confidence in the Government.

A motion of no-confidence is not a “cheap publicity stunt” or “one-upmanship”, but a completely normal part of a parliamentary democracy like ours and a valuable function of the Opposition. It is equally normal that, in the ordinary course of events, the Government will rely on its parliamentary majority to win that motion. There is nothing here to justify the sorts of histrionics in your columnist’s piece.

As for the fact that a number of Independent TDs, who ostensibly sit in Opposition to the Government, were nonetheless willing to vote confidence in Mr Coveney, that might only serve to illustrate another of Edward Stanley’s aphorisms: “Definition of an independent Member of Parliament, viz one that could not be depended upon”. – Yours, etc,

ALAN EUSTACE,

School of Law,

Trinity College Dublin,

Dublin 2.


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## kinnjohn (18 Sep 2021)

Firefly said:


> I agree. Far more important things going on at the moment. Brexit, climate change and of course...Garth Brooks!


you left one other very important item out your list, adding another 8.5% to PRSI to save their own skins come next General election, climate change Irish style,

I know well I should not have posted this but I know you are the kind of poster who will not take offense and enjoy a little banter sometimes,


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## Duke of Marmalade (18 Sep 2021)

SGWidow said:


> As for the fact that a number of Independent TDs, who ostensibly sit in Opposition to the Government, were nonetheless willing to vote confidence in Mr Coveney, that might only serve to illustrate another of Edward Stanley’s aphorisms: “Definition of an independent Member of Parliament, viz one that could not be depended upon”. – Yours, etc,


That is a clever quip from Mr Stanley.  But nonetheless, the fact that 12 Indos were willing to support Coveney rather than even abstain cannot be dismissed by clever word play.
On the more general message of Alan Eustace's letter my read is that it says "oppositions have no confidence in the government by definition".  So should the Dail session begin each working week with a vote of no confidence just to prove the oppposition are still in opposition?
But clearly there must be something more to a vote of no confidence rather than simply re-affirming what we all know. Especially in this day of instant judgement by social media SF in particular has recognised this exercise (with a foregone conclusion) as a nice piece of theatre suiting their agenda.  But they did keep us guessing as to whether they would pull the stunt this time, until I presume the call came in from Army Council HQ to proceed. 
Ironically the party least vulnerable to the stunt were FG (except for Harrisgate).   FF were put in an embarrassing position and suffered the most.  Labour were caught between a rock and a place of firm substance; they had to vote no confidence since as Mr Stanley rightly informs us by definition that is what oppositions do, but it definitely looked like they were Mary Lou's poodle which is why AK made a point of saying that we had more important things to do.
But yes Army Council HQ were right; SF has probably gained from the theatre; they certainly look like the only real opposition in town.


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## kinnjohn (18 Sep 2021)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> That is a clever quip from Mr Stanley.  But nonetheless, the fact that 12 Indos were willing to support Coveney rather than even abstain cannot be dismissed by clever word play.
> On the more general message of Alan Eustace's letter my read is that it says "oppositions have no confidence in the government by definition".  So should the Dail session begin each working week with a vote of no confidence just to prove the oppposition are still in opposition?
> But clearly there must be something more to a vote of no confidence rather than simply re-affirming what we all know. Especially in this day of instant judgement by social media SF in particular has recognised this exercise (with a foregone conclusion) as a nice piece of theatre suiting their agenda.  But they did keep us guessing as to whether they would pull the stunt this time, until I presume the call came in from Army Council HQ to proceed.
> Ironically the party least vulnerable to the stunt were FG (except for Harrisgate).   FF were put in an embarrassing position and suffered the most.  Labour were caught between a rock and a place of firm substance; they had to vote no confidence since as Mr Stanley rightly informs us by definition that is what oppositions do, but it definitely looked like they were Mary Lou's poodle which is why AK made a point of saying that we had more important things to do.
> But yes Army Council HQ were right; SF has probably gained from the theatre; they certainly look like the only real opposition in town.


don't forget a lot of Independents  were co councilors before they became independent TDs other have families in local politics where most local  politicians once elected need to master the art of Clientelism to get reelected for the most part the ones who master it  best get elected as TDs
 The Independent TDs I know are a cut above the rest practicing local government Clientelism  I cant see many raising their eyebrows at  Zappone appointment, voting the right way could e worth a few favors  you know,


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## Duke of Marmalade (18 Sep 2021)

kinnjohn said:


> don't forget a lot of Independents  were co councilors before they became independent TDs other have families in local politics where most local  politicians once elected need to master the art of Clientelism to get reelected for the most part the ones who master it  best get elected as TDs
> The Independent TDs I know are a cut above the rest practicing local government Clientelism  I cant see many raising their eyebrows at  Zappone appointment, voting the right way could e worth a few favors  you know,


Yes, that is a possible explanation - it does need explained not simply by quipping that you can't depend on them.
I am a tad nigh eve I know but somehow 12 deciding not even going for the safe abstain option but positively supporting him seems inconsistent with @SGWidow 's view that these were quite deplorable offences worthy of the sack and ending his career.  She sets a very high bar.


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## kinnjohn (18 Sep 2021)

there is no dividend in  abstaining on this Issue remember at the local level they possibly cut their teeth horse-trading with FF/FG,
If only Zappone had come up through local Government


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## Duke of Marmalade (18 Sep 2021)

kinnjohn said:


> there is no dividend in  abstaining on this Issue remember at the local level they possibly cut their teeth horse-trading with FF/FG,
> If only Zappone had come up through local Government


I am not beyond a bit of scepticism/cynicism of indos' motivations.  What I think we can glean is that this whole Zapponegate is a non event with their  constituents/  I doubt their email boxes were filled with demands for Coveney's head or even his arms and legs.


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## kinnjohn (18 Sep 2021)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> I am not beyond a bit of scepticism/cynicism of indos' motivations.  What I think we can glean is that this whole Zapponegate is a non event with their  constituents/  I doubt their email boxes were filled with demands for Coveney's head or even his arms and legs.


as the say re-election starts the day after getting elected, leaving skepticism/cynicism to one side I have seen skulduggery in action where political parties including FF/FG? SF and Independents  along with Union reps parachuted people into jobs through skulduggery, it never impacted or influenced my working life but I know people who benefited I also know people who lost out as a result, 

when they knock on my door for a vote again all will be asked and reminded of past skulduggery that I know about,

 depending on their answer I receive if they are as flippant as the Duke is they go to the bottom of the ballot paper,

 you do know they would rather you not vote for them than vote the full ballot paper putting them in the last few places,


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## Firefly (20 Sep 2021)

kinnjohn said:


> you left one other very important item out your list, adding another 8.5% to PRSI to save their own skins come next General election, climate change Irish style,


I think it's a great move...drive all those greedy, risk-taking self-employed capitalists into permanent jobs. That will really drive the economy forward! Pity the tax take will reduce though..


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## kinnjohn (20 Sep 2021)

Firefly said:


> I think it's a great move...drive all those greedy, risk-taking self-employed capitalists into permanent jobs. That will really drive the economy forward! Pity the tax take will reduce though..


My Daughter Works in Austria Self employed she pays around 25% social insurance it did not affect her choice of self-employed over direct employed,

one of the most Capitalist countries in the World USA self-employed pay the combined employee and employer amount along with 2.9% Medicare tax,

I am all for the pro-self-employed Capitalists system they have all over the EU, Ireland is an outlier when it comes to Social security contributions from the self-employed,
The result is Bogus self-employment status to people who don't contribute enough to pay their own social security  in Ireland, they would be better off in permanent jobs  and leave the Genuine self-employed capitalist who have no problem paying their way when it comes to the social security system as they do in other EU countries,

Most or all Genuine Capitalists would be against the social security system operating in Ireland  for the self-employed,

The Bedrock Of Genuine Capitalists System Is Founded On Paying Your Own Way,


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## joe sod (20 Sep 2021)

The silence from K Zappone is deafening not a word out of her since this started, she is keeping stum. She is the same as the Healy Raes , exact same strategy they similarly staying silent on the pub full of unmasked revellers in July. They have another thing in common the Healy raes had an American mother , it would be great tv when all this dies down to get her down to the Healy Rae pub in kilgarvan presuming they don't lose the license.


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## kinnjohn (20 Sep 2021)

joe sod said:


> The silence from K Zappone is deafening not a word out of her since this started, she is keeping stum. She is the same as the Healy Raes , exact same strategy they similarly staying silent on the pub full of unmasked revellers in July. They have another thing in common the Healy raes had an American mother , it would be great tv when all this dies down to get her down to the Healy Rae pub in kilgarvan presuming they don't lose the license.


I have no problem with K Zappone she has possibly seen what goes on and wanted part of the action, I have friends who benefited from cronyism
I also have friends who were the victim of cronyism,

I am happy to wait until the next election and ask them to please clarify why they voted for cronyism, if I am not happy with their explanation I can vote down the full ballot paper  putting anyone who thinks voting for cronyism is good right at the bottom of the ballot paper,


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## SGWidow (20 Sep 2021)

joe sod said:


> The silence from K Zappone is deafening not a word out of her since this started, she is keeping stum.



In the same vein, isn't Simon "I'm seriously considering it" Harris making some racket?!

His behaviour may well be related to the old aphorism that "it's only defamation if it's not true."


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## Delboy (20 Sep 2021)

Silence broken....very briefly








						Taoiseach backs Katherine Zappone’s decision to turn down invitation to appear before Oireachtas committee over special envoy role
					

TAOISEACH Micheál Martin has backed Katherine Zappone’s decision to refuse to appear before an Oireachtas committee over the botched effort to appoint her as a UN envoy.




					www.independent.ie
				





> In her response to the invitation, Zappone wrote: “I acknowledge receipt of the invitation to meet with the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Defence.”
> “I respectfully decline,” she said.


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## SGWidow (20 Sep 2021)

Now there's a surprise!


_"Thank you so so much for offering me this incredible opportunity. It will be such a privilege, and I will be so proud to serve Ireland again. I think the time is really ripe for a change too. Could you let me know time period appointment is for, and what are the next steps. And you know, I am working with UN FPA until mid or end of June."_

Given that the above clearly means that she wasn't offered a job presumably it's fair to surmise that _"I respectfully decline" _means that she is delighted to come before the Committee. At the very least, some sort of special needs assistant should check in with her to see if she really understands what the letter of invitation is saying and what her response seems to suggest.


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## Sunny (21 Sep 2021)

Why on earth would anyone appear in front of a committee if they didn't have to??  Have you seen these committees. For every 1 well briefed politician, there are 5 headline hungry idiots who think shouting outrage at a person is a productive use of anyones time.


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## SGWidow (21 Sep 2021)

Sunny said:


> Why on earth would anyone appear in front of a committee if they didn't have to??



because - in her own words.......



SGWidow said:


> _".....I will be so proud to serve Ireland again."_



Pretty much everyone thinks that if Coveney wrote a book with his version of what happened, it would go into the fiction (as opposed to non-fiction) section of my local bookshop. FG bent over backwards for her and she has been given a chance to validate the FG narrative (by validate, I mean, render less incredulous). She has chosen, understandably, not to do so thereby leaving the reasonable conclusions in all of this as they are. My guess is that she would like to be helpful to FG (she is not beyond spinning a yarn or a kilometre or two or three or four) but it would be impossible for her to corrorborate the FG fable without herself appearing like a complete idiot - and that, for someone who traded on being of a certain level of sophistication - would be a step too far for her.


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## SGWidow (21 Sep 2021)

For fear that my opinions weren't unpopular enough already, probably best to bring in Fintan to complete the job?! [It's kinda cold up here on the high ground and I needed some company!]

_Oh when the saints, when the saints, when the saints go marching in........._




Fintan O'Toole: Fine Gael thinks it is saintly when it is merely sanctimonious​
Party’s self-image as the paragon of propriety actually encourages bad behaviour​


Fintan O'Toole
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/...it-is-merely-sanctimonious-1.4679060#comments

Billy Connolly said that the problem with the Scots is not that they package goods with pictures of men in kilts striding through the heather. It’s that they buy them themselves.

The problem with Fine Gaelers is not that they makes sententious claims about their own exceptional probity. It’s that they buy them themselves. They genuinely mistake their own sanctimony for saintliness.

Last week the Minister for State at the Department of Foreign Affairs, Colm Brophy, was on Morning Ireland. The previous night, determined to put the sick into sycophancy, he told the Dáil that his boss and party colleague Simon Coveney “has exemplified all the things we like and admire in people in public life in this country”.

Brophy now widened the scope of his veneration. “What Fine Gael is and has always been,” he told Áine Lawlor, is “a party who [sic] respects the institutions of the State, we’re a party who believe in doing the right thing.” 

The context for this, let us remember, is a party some of whose senior members have been defying the Constitution by leaking information from ongoing Cabinet discussions, giving confidential Government documents to outsiders, and/or flouting the Freedom of Information and National Archives Acts by destroying records of the conduct of official business.

Politicians, of course, don’t just blow their own trumpets. They routinely exhale great fanfares of vanity.
So, nothing very unusual here. What is striking about Brophy’s encomium, though, is its evident sincerity.
​Impregnable certainty​Fine Gael fortifies itself with an impregnable certainty that it, and it alone, embodies the institutions of the State, exemplifies the spirit of selfless public service and invariably does “the right thing”.

Because its political ancestors established the State, it sees itself as the incorruptible guardian of its laws, procedures and conventions. It is, in its own eyes, the peerless paragon of propriety.

Collective self-images are formed less as an Us than as a Not Them. Fine Gael’s Other was Fianna Fáil. It was Éamon de Valera’s deviousness, and then it was Charles Haughey’s corruption. So long as Fianna Fáil could be trusted to do the wrong thing, Fine Gael could be the virtuous counterpoint to its evil twin.

There are two problems with this attitude. One is that it is at odds with reality. The other is that it actually encourages cavalier disrespect for proper standards.

'Never mind that when  was giving money to councillors in Dublin to vote for the rezoning of lands for lucrative development, some Fine Gael public representatives were up the front with their hands out.'  Photograph: Collins Courts
Since Fine Gael always does the right thing, it follows, in this mentality, that the right thing must be whatever Fine Gael feels like doing. Behaviour that would be disreputable if Fianna Fáil was at it undergoes a process of blue-washing. Filtered through this self-serving mythology, it comes out smelling of righteousness.

Never mind that one of the most egregious episodes of misgovernment in the history of the State – the awarding of the second mobile phone licence in the mid-1990s – had a Fine Gael minister, Michael Lowry, at its heart. (Touchingly, Lowry spoke in Simon Coveney’s defence last week, praising “his integrity and commitment, which has been ************************* over the years”.)
​Lucrative development​Never mind that when Frank Dunlop was giving money to councillors in Dublin to vote for the rezoning of lands for lucrative development, some Fine Gael public representatives were up the front with their hands out. 
Never mind that in the systemic corruption of planning processes throughout the country, Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil were often so deeply intertwined in bed with each other as to be in effect one body.

Never mind that, for a whole nine years, between 1986 and 1995, Fine Gael’s own party headquarters was routinely and illegally evading tax by giving staff under-the-counter cash payments as bonuses and overtime.

Never mind that the party in the same period repeatedly broke the law by arranging for outside companies to pick up some of its bills and claim them as business expenses.

By definition, these are all Fianna Fáil-style shenanigans. The party that always does the right thing could not possibly have indulged in such dodginess.

This has been the Fine Gael syllogism: this is bad behaviour; we never behave badly; ergo our misdeeds have nothing to do with us. 
​Reckless disregard​Hence both the reckless disregard for law and propriety that we have seen recently and the genuine hurt and puzzlement that anyone would think the party capable of illegality or impropriety. The saints go marching into the Dáil lobbies blinded by the light from their own halos.
But things have changed. Fianna Fáil is no longer Fine Gael’s convenient Other. Once the twins became conjoined in government, the contrast blurred into a distinction without a difference. Fianna Fáil’s supposedly greater perfidy no longer sheds a favourable light on Fine Gael’s misconduct. 

There is, however, a new Thou to be holier than. Increasingly for Fine Gael, the comfort of not being Fianna Fáil is being replaced by the self-satisfaction of not being Sinn Féin. Is that really the bar the party of the State wants to set for itself? 

It would be good to think that Fine Gael has been chastened by its recent experiences. Those is power need a good humbling every now and then. But as the song goes, it’s hard to be humble when you’re perfect in every way.


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## Duke of Marmalade (21 Sep 2021)

@SGWidow
Usual clever polemic from FOT.  The sanctimonious jibe is fair enough though one can almost understand how FG got there, FF and now SF make a low bar.  For me Labour score best for integrity.
But let's get back to proportionality.  Let me introduce the Marmalade scale of corruption.  As a benchmark I place CJH at 100 and further other readings are as follows:
Frank Dunlop  80
Michael Lowry 75
Ray Bourke 90
.
.
.
Zapponegate 5.

On the scale of sanctimonious hypocrisy, sure FG rate top.


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## kinnjohn (21 Sep 2021)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> @SGWidow
> Usual clever polemic from FOT.  The sanctimonious jibe is fair enough though one can almost understand how FG got there, FF and now SF make a low bar.  For me Labour score best for integrity.
> But let's get back to proportionality.  Let me introduce the Marmalade scale of corruption.  As a benchmark I place CJH at 100 and further other readings are as follows:
> Frank Dunlop  80
> ...


There is a reason you know why Labour is so low in the polls remember labour was at you know what party celebrating Cronyism
Labour always  part of FF/FG cosy cartels,


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## Firefly (21 Sep 2021)

.


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## Firefly (21 Sep 2021)

SGWidow said:


> For fear that my opinions weren't unpopular enough already, probably best to bring in Fintan to complete the job?! [It's kinda cold up here on the high ground and I needed some company!]
> 
> Fintan O'Toole: Fine Gael thinks it is saintly when it is merely sanctimonious​


Fintan O'Toole calling FG sanctimonious? Oh the irony!!


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## joe sod (21 Sep 2021)

Sunny said:


> Why on earth would anyone appear in front of a committee if they didn't have to??


That's fair enough if she was an outsider not of the parliament, but she was an insider those tds on the committee are her contemporaries, she was one of them and she played that game herself. She was well capable of preaching down from on high from her pulpit when she was there, in fact she wanted a new pulpit in New York, now she wants to retreat back to anonymity in New York and stay stum.
I predict that k zappone won't stay silent though, she will wait for a year or so until the controversy has gone then she will reappear in a soft focus interview with Miriam and tell how she was wronged and was the victim of misogyny and all the rest.


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