# Contributory pension



## asdfg (6 Nov 2018)

Don't know if this is in the right forum
I applied to get the contributory pension. I have 420 full rate social insurance contributions I need 520. Unfortunately I went on sick leave and have over 25 years of reckonable credits. I have been told I will not get the contributory state pension as I need 520 full rate social insurance contributions.
 I am very upset as I when  assumed I checked it out a few years ago I just needed 260 contributions. This was increased to 520 contributions with little or no advise as to how I could increase my contributions as I was on illness benefit I was not able to go back to work.
I am aware of the average rules that apply in order to qualify for the contributory pension
I have a few questions
 1. Is there anything I can do to        bring my 420 contributions up to 520 ?
2. Can I make voluntary contributions ?
3. Will I qualify for the state pension under the new total contributions approach expected from 2020 ? 
4. Under the new approach do I still need 520 full rate contributions?


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## Laramie (7 Nov 2018)

*"While the rules are complex, there are many people who easily meet the conditions. If you are now under 66, you should qualify for a State Pension (Contributory) if you have been: Employed or self-employed for most of your life Employed on and off for at least 10 years in total but have been receiving unemployment payments or illness benefits in the periods between employment or"*

This from the Citizens Information website suggests that if a person works but does not qualify with enough stamps of 520, then goes on illness benefit until their retirement age and gets multiple credits they do not qualify for a Contributory Pension. 

However if a person works and does not qualify with enough stamps of 520, then goes on illness benefit but returns to work for "a few months" before retirement will qualify for a Contributory Pension.

Is this correct?


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## Odea (7 Nov 2018)

How many paid stamps does a person in full employment receive in an average year?


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## Monbretia (7 Nov 2018)

One per week so 52, so basically they want you to have worked and contributed for  10 years to qualify for a pension.


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## Odea (7 Nov 2018)

My wife worked from circa 1969 to 1976 in about 3 different companies, 7 years total. She would not have payslips etc, just the name of the company that she worked for. She cannot remember if she paid any social welfare contributions. 

She left work when she got married in 1976 and worked in the family home as a mother to our children.

She went back to work in 1999 and worked until 2006, 7 years total, with a different PPS number to the one she had back in the 70's. 

Then went on illness benefit, currently.

So he has about 14 years working full time, with a large gap between her employment,  and 12 years credits over the last twelve years.

Next year she will be 66. Is there any likelihood that she will qualify for a full Contributory pension?


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## Early Riser (7 Nov 2018)

The answer to a somewhat related question in this Irish Times column is relevant to some of the queries that have been raised in the OP:

https://www.irishtimes.com/business...t-on-access-to-new-improved-pension-1.3684320

Sorry - answer here if you can't access the link :

_The review you refer to is a lookback project for people who have retired since April 2012 to see if they would fare better under the proposed new [broken link removed] to calculating the amount of pension they might receive.

 Unfortunately, it appears your wife will not be able to make the transition from non-contributory to contributory pension under this process. This is notwithstanding the extensive homecarer credits she might otherwise be eligible for.

 For all the improvements that the Total Contributions Approach promises for many people, there is still the first step threshold of 520 paid contributions over a working life to be reached. 

 Credited contributions – even if some were inadvertently or otherwise withheld – are irrelevant until this hurdle is crossed. Only then does the new homecaring credit of up to 20 years’ credited contributions for time spent out of the workforce rearing/caring for family come into the reckoning.

*Over threshold*
 Your wife had close to the 520 paid contributions over her working life but was not quite over that threshold. So, unless she retired before April 2012 when the minimum threshold was 260, she will not qualify for consideration under the new scheme as currently proposed by the Government. April 2012 was when the threshold was increased to 520.

 In short, if you are on a non-contributory scheme, you won’t come under the review.

 It is worth keeping an eye on this as these things have a habit of being amended before they finally pass into law. It could be that the 520 threshold is reduced though there is no current intention to do so.

 It’s a pity she was not aware of the impact of her shortfall slightly earlier, as, before April 5th, 2015, it would have been open to her to pay voluntary contributions which might well have brought her above the 520 threshold. That option is no longer available after April 2015 unless you already have the minimum 520 paid contributions, which is no good to you, or her.


Please send your queries to Dominic Coyle, Q&A, The Irish Times, 24-28 Tara Street, Dublin 2, or email dcoyle@irishtimes.com. This column is a reader service and is not intended to replace professional advice._


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## Odea (7 Nov 2018)

Early Riser said:


> For all the improvements that the Total Contributions Approach promises for many people, there is still the first step threshold of 520 paid contributions over a working life to be reached.



If my wife worked for 7 years back in the 70's, then a gap of 23 years working in the home, then went back to work for 7 years, would she not have more than 520 paid contributions during her lifetime? (14 years contributions).


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## Early Riser (7 Nov 2018)

Odea said:


> If my wife worked for 7 years back in the 70's, then a gap of 23 years working in the home, then went back to work for 7 years, would she not have more than 520 paid contributions during her lifetime? (14 years contributions).



It would seem to me that she would. She would have to establish this with Welfare. Sorry, I am unfamiliar with the process.



Odea said:


> She went back to work in 1999 and worked until 2006, 7 years total, with a different PPS number to the one she had back in the 70's.


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## noproblem (7 Nov 2018)

Monbretia said:


> One per week so 52, so basically they want you to have worked and contributed for  10 years to qualify for a pension.



You mean, to qualify for a minimum pension only.


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## Monbretia (7 Nov 2018)

Yes that just gets you in the door, the average then over working life determines the amount you get and you must meet some other conditions, it's all changing too  though.

Apply for your contribution record and when you get it  pop into a citizens information office and they will work it out for you.


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## Conan (7 Nov 2018)

The starting point is to check your PRSI history with the Dept of Social Protection. Their records office is based in Buncrana. If you have a PCP Card then you should be able to do it online under www.welfare.ie.
Under current rules you do have to have a minimum of 520 PAID contributions. This would get you at least the minimum State Pension of 40%. For women (mainly) who were out of the workforce minding children prior to 1994 they will get credits for those years, but again we await the details which are expected next year.
 There are changes due to happen in 2020 around the proposed move to a Total Contribution Approach (TCA) but we do not yet have clarity of the minutiae.


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## Lisboa (7 Nov 2018)

Odea said:


> She left work when she got married in 1976 and worked in the family home as a mother to our children.
> 
> She went back to work in 1999



Could she possibly be eligible for the Homemaker's Scheme from 1994(year it was introduced) until 1999 when she went back to work?
Homemaker's Scheme is designed to 





> ignore gaps when
> working out your yearly average of PRSI contributions
> for State Pension (Contributory).


.
I can't post the link to download the pamphlet as I have less than 10 posts, just Google for Homemaker's Scheme Ireland.


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## Lisboa (7 Nov 2018)

asdfg said:


> Don't know if this is in the right forum
> I applied to get the contributory pension. I have 420 full rate social insurance contributions I need 520.
> I have a few questions
> 1. Is there anything I can do to        bring my 420 contributions up to 520 ?
> ...



1. I would certainly call them and ask about all of your options. They may give you information that could be missed here on an internet forum.

2. Probably not, because -
To be eligible to make voluntary contributions you must:


Have at least *520 PRSI contributions* paid under compulsory insurance in either employment or self-employment
But again, call them, rules may be different for those on long term sick leave and/or a disability.

3. and 4. I believe the rules are still being finalised and edited. I guess we may not know the final criteria until Budget of October 2019?


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## shweeney (8 Nov 2018)

Lisboa said:


> Could she possibly be eligible for the Homemaker's Scheme from 1994(year it was introduced) until 1999 when she went back to work?
> Homemaker's Scheme is designed to .
> I can't post the link to download the pamphlet as I have less than 10 posts, just Google for Homemaker's Scheme Ireland.



homemakers scheme is only for the averaging to determine what level of pension you get, you still need 520 minimum contributions to qualify in the first place.


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## Lisboa (8 Nov 2018)

shweeney said:


> homemakers scheme is only for the averaging to determine what level of pension you get, you still need 520 minimum contributions to qualify in the first place.



His wife has (or believes should have) a record of 14 years worth of contributions, comfortably more than the 520 minimum.


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## Tintagel (8 Nov 2018)

shweeney said:


> homemakers scheme is only for the averaging to determine what level of pension you get, you still need 520 minimum contributions to qualify in the first place.



My wife returned to work in the year 2000. Between 2000 and next year 2019  (when she reaches age 66) she will have a mix of 19 years paid and credited contributions.   She also worked for about 8 years back in the 1970's. So in total she could have 27 years of paid & credited contributions over her working lifetime.

Is it possible when the "averaging" calculation takes place that she could end up with a lesser pension by including the 8 years from the 1970's.  Is it better not to include them?


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## Conan (8 Nov 2018)

Tintagel 
You cannot choose to ignore certain years. The averaging is based on total years in the PRSI system, from when she first took up employment to the December prior to her 66th birthday. So take the total years of paid and credited contributions and divide this by the number of years in the system from back in the 1970’s. This gives you the average number of contributions and depending on this figure she can determine what % of the full State Pension she will get (based on your information I guess circa 90%).


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## Early Riser (8 Nov 2018)

Tintagel said:


> My wife returned to work in the year 2000. Between 2000 and next year 2019 (when she reaches age 66) she will have a mix of 19 years paid and credited contributions. She also worked for about 8 years back in the 1970's. So in total she could have 27 years of paid & credited contributions over her working lifetime.
> 
> Is it possible when the "averaging" calculation takes place that she could end up with a lesser pension by including the 8 years from the 1970's. Is it better not to include them?



Has she got a copy of her Social Insurance record ? If so, are the years from back in the 1970s included ?


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## Keant1591 (9 Nov 2018)

Once you have 520 contributions, credited contributions will then be added but if you have less than 520 credited contributions will not be added. Your total contributions are divided by no of years from date of your first employment to the December before your 66th birthday. 
If not eligible for a full pension she might just fair out better getting qualified adult on your pension if you have one.


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## Keant1591 (9 Nov 2018)

There are also 2 bins in social welfare with p35s they were unable to process years ago. If you worked somewhere in the 70s and it is not showing up on your records they can check for you.


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## Early Riser (9 Nov 2018)

Keant1591 said:


> There are also 2 bins in social welfare with p35s they were unable to process years ago. If you worked somewhere in the 70s and it is not showing up on your records they can check for you.



But under the current averaging system, would someone with a big gap in contributions be better off if they weren't so assiduous in pushing Welfare to check out that second bin, in which they might have a different number attached to their name anyway ?


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## Keant1591 (9 Nov 2018)

early Riser - how would they be better off by not checking it under the averaging system if it was not there first employment or if they had less than 520 contributions showing up. There are names in the bin where digits are wrong on the handwritten p35s at the time etc, that’s why they are there.


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## Early Riser (9 Nov 2018)

Of course they have to have the the 520 paid contributions first - I was starting from that assumption.

Otherwise I am not so sure - it is a question.

Lets say someone worked (and paid social insurance) for a few years in the early seventies. Then the left insurable employment - perhaps a period abroad and/or a period home-making. They then return to work in the late nineties and are now retiring. If they get their PRSI record and it says that their first "stamp" was in the late nineties and they have a continuous record since, might they be better of if they just left it at that ? Or would they be better off if they got onto Welfare to hunt down their earlier 3-4 year record from the early seventies - which perhaps has a different number attached to it and which would leave a 20 years + contribution gap, diminishing their overall average ?


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## Tintagel (9 Nov 2018)

I agree with what you are saying Early Riser.

However in my wife's case, she will not have the 520 paid contributions since returning to work in the late 90's.

So she HAS to go back to previous employments from the 1970's to have these contributions included to bring her contributions over the 520. Unfortunately she had a different PRSI number then which she cannot locate. During that period she worked for four companies. Three of these no longer exist. *What can she do about that?*

Around about 1980 she decided to sign on for credits out in Dun Laoghaire. When she contacted them they could not locate any details for her under her original PRSI number so they allocated her a temporary new PRSI number. Then for some reason they never gave her a new permanent PRSI number but told her instead to sign using MY PRSI number?  So she signed on for about 5 years using my PRSI number.  *Was it normal for wives to use their husband's PRSI number during that time?*


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## Early Riser (9 Nov 2018)

Tintagel - I understand your points. Your wife really needs to establish her old records - she doesn't have her 520 paid contributions otherwise. Unfortunately I am unable to advise on how best to do so. Hopefully others can give you a steer on this.


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## Monbretia (9 Nov 2018)

Yes it was normal for a wife to use husbands prsi number, when I got married they changed my number to his and just stuck a W on the end for Wife!   Years later and they reverted again to individual numbers, don't think though I had the same one as original.


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## Kimmagegirl (9 Nov 2018)

Monbretia said:


> Yes it was normal for a wife to use husbands prsi number, when I got married they changed my number to his and just stuck a W on the end for Wife! Years later and they reverted again to individual numbers, don't think though I had the same one as original.


 Thank you. You have just jarred my memory.

I believe that I had an "Insurance" number back in the day. Then my husband's PRSI number. Then a different number PPS when I went back to work.

The problem I have is that I know my current number, I know my husband's number but I don't know my original number.

Is it possible under the current search system for the Department of Social Protection to track me back all the way to the 1970's if I don't know my original number?  I would have been single then?


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## Monbretia (9 Nov 2018)

I would imagine they would have a good try, I doubt many people have their original single name number, I certainly don't and worked for several years under whatever number that was.  However I have never checked up on whether a record of it exists or not, big employer who is still around so hopefully wouldn't be a problem anyway.


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## Keant1591 (9 Nov 2018)

The credits she signed for are no good if she does not have 520 paid credits which she doesn’t on paper yet. Has she any time to pay more? If not you need to get back to prsi with as much details as possible about where she worked in the past, they should be able to locate some details.


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## POC (9 Nov 2018)

When I got married I changed to my husband's PPS number with a W on the end. I was able to get a contribution record which included contributions under both numbers. 
I have now been changed back to my original PPS number (since the introduction of Public Service cards).
It is possible that the Department have all your records continuously, if they updated your records when you got married.


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