# Problem with unregistered landlord



## Raul (10 Sep 2008)

Hi,
My girlfriend is having trouble with her current landlord. He is not registered as a landlord and therefore no lease is signed. 

He asked one of them to move out 3 weeks ago because he needed somewhere to stay but both her and her housemate decided to move out because they are not too keen on living with him. 

He had been paying them rent relief himself but is now refusing to pay it for the last 10 months (he last paid in November 2007 for the previous year). 

She has found a place now also and is moving out a week earlier than she is paid up until.

He won't give her this last week rent back though even though he forced one of them to move out. He initially told the other girl that he would give her the money back if she moved out early but is now claiming she misunderstood him.

I think my girlfriend should tell him that she is going to seek advice from Revenue and the PTRB unless he pays both the rent relief and give her the last weeks rent back.

 Is this the right avenue to go down?


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## j26 (10 Sep 2008)

*Re: Problem with unregistered landlord. Need advice*

Yep,

She still has all the reliefs available from the PRTB, despite the fact that he's not registered.  The thing is it takes quite a while going through the PRTB, so the Revenue threat may be much more powerful.


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## Raul (10 Sep 2008)

*Re: Problem with unregistered landlord. Need advice*

I think we will threaten him with both just to be sure  Thanks for the reply


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## niceoneted (11 Sep 2008)

*Re: Problem with unregistered landlord. Need advice*

And report him too.


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## Towger (11 Sep 2008)

*Re: Problem with unregistered landlord. Need advice*



niceoneted said:


> And report him too.


 
Do dont need to report him, you just claim rent relief from Revenue. They dont need his PPS number, just give is Name, Address and the address of the house etc. They should be able to put 2 & 2 together.


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## ubiquitous (11 Sep 2008)

*Re: Problem with unregistered landlord. Need advice*



Raul said:


> He had been paying them rent relief himself but is now refusing to pay it for the last 10 months (he last paid in November 2007 for the previous year).



Hopefully the Revenue won't then ask your girlfriend why she aided and abetted her landlord's apparent tax evasion by accepting a bribe from him in lieu of claiming rent relief.


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## rmelly (11 Sep 2008)

*Re: Problem with unregistered landlord. Need advice*



Towger said:


> Do dont need to report him, you just claim rent relief from Revenue. They done need his PPS number, just give is Name, Address and the address of the house etc. They should be able to put 2 & 2 together.


 
I don't see any reason NOT to report him - based on the info supplied he has mistreated the friend. What do you have against reporting him? Why allow him a possibility of getting away with it?


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## Raul (11 Sep 2008)

*Re: Problem with unregistered landlord. Need advice*



ubiquitous said:


> Hopefully the Revenue won't then ask your girlfriend why she aided and abetted her landlord's apparent tax evasion by accepting a bribe from him in lieu of claiming rent relief.


 
That's a bit of a dirty dig isn't it? You telling me most people wouldn't do the same?

Thanks to all the others who replied with helpful answers.


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## Raul (11 Sep 2008)

*Re: Problem with unregistered landlord. Need advice*



rmelly said:


> I don't see any reason NOT to report him - based on the info supplied he has mistreated the friend. What do you have against reporting him? Why allow him a possibility of getting away with it?


 
The main reason is she doesn't really want to hassle or aggro but doesn't want to be ripped off either. I would be inclined to do what you are suggesting though.


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## ubiquitous (11 Sep 2008)

*Re: Problem with unregistered landlord. Need advice*



Raul said:


> That's a bit of a dirty dig isn't it??? You telling me most people wouldn't do the same?


Maybe they would. That's not the point. Your girlfriend has benefitted financially by facilitating and colluding in her landlord's tax evasion. In my book, that's fraud. Hopefully the Revenue won't raise these issues with her when she makes her report.


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## sam h (11 Sep 2008)

*Re: Problem with unregistered landlord. Need advice*



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ubiquitous* http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?p=704279#post704279
> _Hopefully the Revenue won't then ask your girlfriend why she aided and abetted her landlord's apparent tax evasion by accepting a bribe from him in lieu of claiming rent relief._
> 
> That's a bit of a dirty dig isn't it??? You telling me most people wouldn't do the same?


 
I don't think this was ment as a dig....there is a risk that revenue will not look too favourably on her as she obviously knew she was entitled to rent relief and yet allowed the landlord to sort this out directly with her.  It is something to bear in mind.


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## Raul (11 Sep 2008)

*Re: Problem with unregistered landlord. Need advice*



sam h said:


> I don't think this was ment as a dig....there is a risk that revenue will not look too favourably on her as she obviously knew she was entitled to rent relief and yet allowed the landlord to sort this out directly with her. It is something to bear in mind.


 
Ok sorry I thought it was a dig at her. Yep will keep in mind so. Thanks


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## RentDayBlues (12 Sep 2008)

*Re: Problem with unregistered landlord. Need advice*

How exactly will the Revenue know she accepted the cash? They wont! So she can now report him and claim back tax relief for the years she lived there. Unless there is a financial trail to show that she received this money from the LL, she's laughing. 

Not exactly the most honest policy but every cloud has a silver lining


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## z103 (12 Sep 2008)

*Re: Problem with unregistered landlord. Need advice*



> Maybe they would. That's not the point. Your girlfriend has benefitted financially by facilitating and colluding in her landlord's tax evasion. In my book, that's fraud. Hopefully the Revenue won't raise these issues with her when she makes her report.


How does the OP's girlfriend know that the landlord is evading tax?
Even if she did know for certain, so what? Is she under any obligation to inform the revenue?


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## ubiquitous (12 Sep 2008)

*Re: Problem with unregistered landlord. Need advice*



RentDayBlues said:


> How exactly will the Revenue know she accepted the cash? They wont! So she can now report him and claim back tax relief for the years she lived there. Unless there is a financial trail to show that she received this money from the LL, she's laughing.
> 
> Not exactly the most honest policy but every cloud has a silver lining



If the landlord is able to tell the Revenue that the tenant hasn't claimed rent relief for past years, and this is verified when the Revenue examine the tenant's tax record, this may well lead them to conclude that the landlord's story is credible, and the tenant is not to be trusted.

The old moral about people in glasshouses still applies sometimes.


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## theengineer (12 Sep 2008)

*Re: Problem with unregistered landlord. Need advice*

call into the local citizen information office, and they will have some info for you, and yes report him.


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## z103 (12 Sep 2008)

*Re: Problem with unregistered landlord. Need advice*



> If the landlord is able to tell the Revenue that the tenant hasn't claimed rent relief for past years, and this is verified when the Revenue examine the tenant's tax record, this may well lead them to conclude that the landlord's story is credible, and the tenant is not to be trusted.


I rented for years, and didn't know there was such thing as 'rent relief'. I never claimed it. I'm pretty sure that there are many people out there that still do not know about it.


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## ubiquitous (12 Sep 2008)

*Re: Problem with unregistered landlord. Need advice*



leghorn said:


> I rented for years, and didn't know there was such thing as 'rent relief'. I never claimed it.



Yes, but how many people know that you didn't claim it, and would be in a position to cite this fact in order to support their argument in a "one person's word against another" scenario"?


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## theengineer (12 Sep 2008)

*Re: Problem with unregistered landlord. Need advice*

The only party in trouble here in the unregistered landlord.


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## z103 (12 Sep 2008)

*Re: Problem with unregistered landlord. Need advice*



> Yes, but how many people know that you didn't claim it, and would be in a position to cite this fact in order to support their argument in a "one person's word against another" scenario"?


I see your point.


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## ubiquitous (12 Sep 2008)

*Re: Problem with unregistered landlord. Need advice*



theengineer said:


> The only party in trouble here in the unregistered landlord.


Indeed, but the tenant may wish to consider the effect if any, of s1078 TCA 1997:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/act/pub/0039/sec1078.html#zza39y1997s1078


> (2) A person shall, without prejudice to any other penalty to which the person may be liable, be guilty of an offence under this section if the person—
> 
> 
> ( a ) knowingly or wilfully delivers any incorrect return, statement or accounts or knowingly or wilfully furnishes any incorrect information in connection with any tax,
> ...


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## rabbits (12 Sep 2008)

*Re: Problem with unregistered landlord. Need advice*

As a tenant, you are entitled not to apply for rent relief and then apply for a number of back years in one go.


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## S.L.F (14 Sep 2008)

*Re: Problem with unregistered landlord. Need advice*



ubiquitous said:


> *knowingly aids, abets, assists, incites or induces another person to make or deliver knowingly or wilfully any incorrect return, statement or accounts in connection with any tax,*



I'm not an accountant nor a lawyer but what I take from this is that the person who helps a tax defrauder with returns or statement would be in trouble I don't see how the tenant would be in trouble for taking money from the landlord she would only have to pay tax on it...nothing more.

The landlord would be in far more trouble from the PRTB and revenue

At the most the tenant would have to pay a fine.


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## Bronte (17 Sep 2008)

*Re: Problem with unregistered landlord. Need advice*

The money the landlord gave back could be seen as a reduction in rent, can't see how revenue are going to prosecute the tenant who probably  has no assets etc.  And we'd be talking about a pittance amount.  Revenue are far more interested in undeclared landlords.  That's the person who's in real trouble.  What I don't get about this story is the fact the landlord moved in - particularly as he is male and the tenant's are female, am I missing something.


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## anjest (4 Nov 2008)

*Re: Problem with unregistered landlord. Need advice*

The revenue would have to prove that she knew without doubt that he was avoiding tax, and unless she has access to all his financial records she cant. She has no need to worry, he is the one up to his neck. Does not sound as though he is a particularly pleasant individual anyway so hit him with the revenu.
As to rent relief whether she applies or not is up to  her, and ae we talking here  about rent relief or tax crdits for rent.


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## Raul (9 Nov 2008)

*Re: Problem with unregistered landlord. Need advice*

I didn't realise this thread was still going  My girlfriend's ex housemate ended up reporting him anyway. My girlfriend now has a better house with cheaper rent so it worked out for her. I've answered some pretty old questions below about my opening post.



leghorn said:


> How does the OP's girlfriend know that the landlord is evading tax?
> Even if she did know for certain, so what? Is she under any obligation to inform the revenue?


 
Because he told her straight out when she asked about claiming rent relief.



Bronte said:


> What I don't get about this story is the fact the landlord moved in - particularly as he is male and the tenant's are female, am I missing something.


 
He needed somewhere to live after travelling. He was away for 2-3 years I think. His relative was collecting rent on his behalf. He knew for several months that he would be forcing one of them to move out but never informed them. I can see why he didn't in case he lost money because of it but it does show what type of person they were dealing with.


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## ajapale (9 Nov 2008)

Moved from  Management Companies etc
to Property Investment which is where Landlord/Tenant issues are discussed.

Have you looked at  Threshold National Housing Organisation in Ireland ?
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