# New symbol for Irish Milk...an Udder waste of money?



## StaroftheSea (16 Sep 2009)

Hi all,

I heard last night that there is a new initiative to identify Irish milk to consumers , so that they can "make an informed decision" when they go to the supermarket. This it is believed will help in promoting more sales of milk that has beeen produced here in Ireland.

Could I just assist in this worthwhile campaign by telling you all of another way I've noticed of distuingishing between Irish and non Irish (mostly Northern Irish) milk...the PRICE. I paid 1 60 in the local yesterday for Sunny Days (i think?) milk, compared to 2 50 for the same amount of locally produced milk, sitting beside it on the shelf.  90cent difference for those of you not great at the old maths, on a 2 litre carton. So for a fiver I can have 4 litres of local Irish milk, or 6 litres of dangerous foreign milk..(how do we know it even comes from cows? I mean what regulations do they have up there in the North anyway.....?)

I am a part time farmer myself, and I'm all for supporting local farm produce and enterprise, but surely we must realise that cost is the most critical factor for most people with most products.... A limp initiative like the one mentioned above will not I believe make a significant difference to the sale of Irish milk.....we already know which is Irish-it's the dear stuff.  ...and considering that I will drive out of my way to go to the petrol station with the cheapest petrol, which is usually only a few cent per litre cheaper, I am certainly not prepared to pay pay 90 cent more for a litre of milk.....I mean you wouldn't do it for the petrol......)

.....especially when there is not compromise in quality....


Second Point...
Isn't there already a very good system of labelling Irish produced meat in this country...i.e. the Quality Symbol.  This IMO is an excellent sytem which clearly identifies Irish products on the supermarket shelf ....

(said shelves can be very deceiving.....just look at Denny sausages for example or any of the pre packed hams or any prepacked sausages now that I think of it.....actually I defy anyone to go to the supermarket and find a pack of sausages with the Q sign on it... They didn't exist the last time I looked.....which means of course that the meat in those products hasn't been sourced in Ireland. another very interesting brand is 'Ballyfree'.... check it out. It's on almost every shelf in every supermarket and corner store in the country. It's products include everything from sausages to chicken to ham, in a variety of presentations.  It's name suggests Irish - 'Bally' is distinctly Irish, and 'Free' conjours up images of chickens and pigs happily wandering about on acres of green pasture somewhere down in the Golden Vale.....really happy animals like on the Shaun the Sheep cartoons.... The reality is much much different I fear.....the absence of the Quality mark being the giveaway.) 

...back to the point.....
....is it beyond the realm of reasonability to suggest that the milk producers could have adopted this system for identifying their Irish products? After all both meat and milk producers share a common goal.....i.e. to promote their products and make them clearly identifyable... So instead of confusing us more with various different symbols meaning this and that, we could have one universal symbol.....

I had a third point but I've forgotten it now......(had I been drinking Irish milk I probably wouldn't have.....but there you go....!

All opinions eagerly awaited!


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## MANTO (16 Sep 2009)

To keep it short and sweet, I agree, 

Since when has the country become so illiterate that we cannot read the label and see the products place of origin?


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## StaroftheSea (16 Sep 2009)

MANTO said:


> To keep it short and sweet, I agree,
> 
> Since when has the country become so illiterate that we cannot read the label and see the products place of origin?


 

I agree!, however it is important to remember that the quality Irish symbols have an important role to play, as packaging can be very deceiving,especially in the area of meat products....Ballyfree, Denny and many other Irish sounding brands demonstrate this....


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## Guest128 (16 Sep 2009)

Where do Denny sausages actually come from then? What about Clon sausages?


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## StaroftheSea (16 Sep 2009)

Good Question, and one which I can't answer fully. I can say that because the sausages lack the Quality symbol, all/some of the ingredients are not of Irish Origin.... (Denny labels a lot of its products with the Quality Symbol, but not it's sausages....I believe it would if it could.....)
I would surmise that some of the ingredients come from abroad, probably the fat content.. 
My friend works in a meat factory in the south east, where they make sausages for a well known Irish brand, and also for a supermarket chain.  his job includes opening the vacuum packed vats of pure white fat that comes in from Germany amongst other countries, and smelling it to test its freshness, before it gets passed down to the factory floor for use in BOTH brands of sausages.... He says 10 percent of these sausages are lean meat....except for a few spices flavouring etc the rest is pure fat.  He also told me that the only difference between the well known Irish brand's sausages, and the cheaper supermarkets sausages , is the flavours/spices etc added to the mix, the packaging........and of course the price....!


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## Guest128 (16 Sep 2009)

What well known brand? Do all sausages not have a pork percentage on them, usually from 50 - 70%?


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## mathepac (16 Sep 2009)

mikeljoe77 said:


> ... He says 10 percent of these sausages are lean meat....except for a few spices flavouring etc the rest is pure fat.  ...


A major constituent of sausages is a filler, usually breadcrumbs or corn-meal of some kind.


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## Caveat (16 Sep 2009)

FLANDERS` said:


> ...Do all sausages not have a pork percentage on them, usually from 50 - 70%?


 
But sometimes this only means 50-70% comes from a pig.  Doesn't mean it's going to be prime pork fillet or anything like it.

Reminds me of a well known burger manufacturer who proudly claimed: "100% Irish beef" - turns out it was 100% _Irish_ alright but not exactly 100% _beef_ - as we would imagine it.


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## Latrade (16 Sep 2009)

mikeljoe77 said:


> He says 10 percent of these sausages are lean meat....except for a few spices flavouring etc the rest is pure fat. He also told me that the only difference between the well known Irish brand's sausages, and the cheaper supermarkets sausages , is the flavours/spices etc added to the mix, the packaging........and of course the price....!


 
If, based on estimates, the fat content was so high (given the information there >80%) the saunsages would essentially shrivel to nothing when cooked as the fat melts. 

There is a large enough fat content, but nowhere near that high.


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## Guest128 (16 Sep 2009)

Caveat said:


> But sometimes this only means 50-70% comes from a pig.  Doesn't mean it's going to be prime pork fillet or anything like it.




90% hoof and snout!


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## mathepac (16 Sep 2009)

From a packet of 8 jumbo pork saussies in the fridge : Pork meat 57%, water, rusk, pork fat, seasoning, flavour enhancer, MSG, yeast extract, preservative, sodium sulphate, spice extracts, antioxidant, sodium ascorbate, colour : caramel. These are the headliners, Es and stuff are also listed.


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## olddog (16 Sep 2009)

mikeljoe77 said:


> .....I heard last night that there is a new initiative to identify Irish milk to consumers , so that they can "make an informed decision" when they go to the supermarket. This it is believed will help in promoting more sales of milk that has beeen produced here in Ireland......



So you didnt hear that milk in N.I. now retails in the range 89p - 109p per 2l then ?

Meanwhile producers north and south are being bled dry.


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## Latrade (17 Sep 2009)

olddog said:


> So you didnt hear that milk in N.I. now retails in the range 89p - 109p per 2l then ?
> 
> Meanwhile producers north and south are being bled dry.


 
Last I heard, around 60% of milk in shops came from the North. I think if you asked anyone where their milk came from, apart from a shrug and "the Spar" they wouldn't know it was imported. 

I think the labelling is a good idea.


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## MOB (17 Sep 2009)

The milk market  is regulated and rigged.  

Farmers in NI have been able to buy in quota from the UK and expand in scale.  Farmers in ROI cannot do the same.  Dairy farming is a business where you can enjoy significant economies of scale - so it is a big advantage to be able to expand.

For the 'liquid milk' market ( i.e. the stuff that ends up in cartons, rather than being processed into cheeses and other foodstuffs) farmers in NI auction their milk and when there is a surplus, the price can drop quite a bit.  Farmers in ROI are (mostly) on supply contracts where they have to produce the milk all year, including in winter when it is more costly to do so.  ROI sellers of NI milk can often buy their supplies at dumping prices.  The marginal cost to the NI farmer of producing this extra\dumped milk supply is (possibly) below the price they get for it; but it is often sold at below their average production cost per litre.

The NI milk is probably a little older and a bit more well-travelled by the time it gets on your shelf.   

We have good milk producers in ROI.  They are among the most businesslike and pragmatic of farmers.  If they could compete on a level playing field, they would do so and they would win, because if all other market distortions were removed,  a lot of the NI milk would be at a competitive disadvantage due to transport costs.

I support free markets, with appropriate regulation (my views on regulation would be that we need more than, say, the PD party might have said, and an awful lot less than, say, Labour or SF might say. )

For the reasons outlined, I will not buy NI milk.  It is certainly unfair to our farmers to support a market which is rigged against them and it is in any event probably the case that their milk is of slightly better quality.

Even without the new labelling. most NI milk will have a 'UK' label ( the little white oval on the packaging which also gives the number of the processing plant) but this is not foolproof.  There is a dairy ( at least there was a few years ago - I was involved in litigation at the time, hence my interest in this area; I am not a farmer or from a farming background)  supplying one of our large multiples which buys in milk from NI and packages it here: the milk is labelled as ROI origin.


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## bamboozle (18 Sep 2009)

MANTO said:


> To keep it short and sweet, I agree,
> 
> Since when has the country become so illiterate that we cannot read the label and see the products place of origin?


 

its not a case of being illiterate but moreso a case of smart packaging and labelling by the supermarkets, a good example being 'smoked irish salmon' and 'irish smoked salmon' same 3 words, only one of them relates to Irish produced/caught salmon, the other relates to salmon caught elsewhere but smoked in Ireland.
For what its worth i refuse to shop in Tesco as they are master of branding products to make it seem like they are of irish origin


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## bamboozle (18 Sep 2009)

Latrade said:


> Last I heard, around 60% of milk in shops came from the North. I think if you asked anyone where their milk came from, apart from a shrug and "the Spar" they wouldn't know it was imported.
> 
> I think the labelling is a good idea.


 

i agree, if we are to help this nation get off its feet again we have to do our bit and where possible buy Irish products to ensure we are supporting Irish jobs www.loveirishfood.ie


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## olddog (18 Sep 2009)

A slightly related matter

Noticed that Lidl are selling eggs labeled "Irish Organic eggs" but the producer stamp on the box is UK based

Hands up who knows the difference between

"Smoked Irish Salmon"

and

"Irish Smoked Salmon"


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## RonanC (18 Sep 2009)

olddog said:


> A slightly related matter
> 
> Noticed that Lidl are selling eggs labeled "Irish Organic eggs" but the producer stamp on the box is UK based
> 
> ...


 
"Irish" means the whole island of Ireland though. You will see a UK stamp on eggs from the North but there is a number (9) after the UK part to tell you that the eggs are from the North of Ireland, making them Irish.

You should see a code like this - 0 UK9 on your eggs 

0 = organic
UK9 = eggs from Northern Ireland


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## liaconn (18 Sep 2009)

Smoked Irish salmon means the salmon is from Ireland

Irish smoked salmon means the salmon is from anywhere and has been smoked in Ireland.

There was an interesting programme about this sort of thing on telly a couple of months ago. Its amazing how lax the labelling regs seem to be.


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## Complainer (18 Sep 2009)

MOB said:


> Farmers in ROI are (mostly) on supply contracts where they have to produce the milk all year, including in winter when it is more costly to do so.


There used to be an active market in buying or leasing quotas between farmers - does this not happen anymore?



MOB said:


> Farmers in ROI are (mostly) on supply contracts where they have to produce the milk all year, including in winter when it is more costly to do so.


Perhaps the ROI farmers shouldn't have been in such of a rush to float off the co-ops in the 80's to make a quick buck. If they had retained control of the distribution channel, they might be able to dictate terms (not that the consumer would benefit of course).


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## mathepac (19 Sep 2009)

I just bought a litre of milk for use with the brekkie. Its an Avonmore (I have no connection with them) carton and has two green-and-white logos "I love Irish food" and "The National Dairy Council Farmed in the Republic of Ireland".

In the same chiller cabinet were 2 litre containers from Thurles Creamry, Avonmore and Donegal Dream (?), none of which had the logos. 

This prompts a few questions -


Are the separate logos indicative of separate initiatives and could savings in cost and confusion be achieved by combining them?
If a carton has one logo but not the other, what does this mean?
If a carton has neither of the logos what does this mean?
If a milk processor has logos on some containers but not on others, does this mean it uses different production lines to avoid cross-contamination or is this just another "smoke and mirrors" job?
How come The National Dairy Council doesn't know the name of the country it purports to represent? (the country is called "Ireland" not "The Republic of Ireland")
What's the status of the "I love Irish food" logo, given that it is almost identical to one used to promote food produced in an English county and the one used to promote tourism in Belfast?


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## MOB (23 Sep 2009)

Complainer said:


> There used to be an active market in buying or leasing quotas between farmers - does this not happen anymore?.



There is a fixed total amount of quota in the ROI market.  If one farmer goes out of business, other farmers can certainly buy or lease his milk quota, but the industry cannot scale up much by this.  The NI farmers can buy in quota from the rest of the UK, where dairy farms have been going out of business at a steady rate for years and where quota is far more readily available as a result.  So, in liquid milk supply , they have a competitive advantage handed to them by a rigged market.



Complainer said:


> Perhaps the ROI farmers shouldn't have been in such of a rush to float off the co-ops in the 80's to make a quick buck. If they had retained control of the distribution channel, they might be able to dictate terms (not that the consumer would benefit of course).



Perhaps.  I doubt it; Pricing power rests mainly with the large retail multiples and I don't think any processor(s), whether farmer-owned or not,  have been able to alter this.  Perhaps the story would be different if all Irish farmers had united in a single Co-Op, as has happened in some other countries;  Mind you this still would not alter the fact that our industry cannot expand, while that in NI can.


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## wishbone (31 Aug 2010)

*don't assume since one size is Irish the udder is too!*

Aldi now receive their 1 litre milk from Arrabawn Dairies, which is great for us as we shop there and they also do a 'Super milk' range.  But we went there the other day and all of their Super milk was sold out, so we grabbed some 2 litre plastic cartons instead of the 1 litre.   As we queued I noticed the dairy council Rep Ireland green symbol was not on the container, and so looked at the code, NI !!  I went back with the milk and looked at the 1 litre cartons, IE symbol and the green label.  So I got that one instead.

Anyway it has taught me, never assume...now I see the subtlety in the article...Arrabawn Dairies in County Galway will now supply all 75 Irish Aldi Stores with its new Cowbelle Irish Milk one litre range

[broken link removed]


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## Complainer (1 Sep 2010)

wishbone said:


> Anyway it has taught me, never assume...now I see the subtlety in the article...Arrabawn Dairies in County Galway will now supply all 75 Irish Aldi Stores with its new Cowbelle Irish Milk one litre range
> 
> [broken link removed]


Awful pity they don't do skimmed milk. Low-fat is still a bit too much fat for me.


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## Boyd (1 Sep 2010)

Complainer said:


> Awful pity they don't do skimmed milk. Low-fat is still a bit too much fat for me.



I'm sure they sell water, pretty much the same thing


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## DB74 (1 Sep 2010)

Foreign water probably!


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## Protocol (16 May 2011)

I did a quick experiment in Tesco last night.

I checked several packs of ham.

Denny
Roscrea
Galtee
Shaws

All were processed / packed (?) in plant no 501, which is:

*
501​**Duffy Meats Ltd​**Shillelagh​**Wicklow​* 
I found the name of the plant from a DAFF website.


All are Kerry Group brands.

All have different addresses on the back, e.g.

Shaws, Consumer Services, Limerick
etc., etc.

but these are just marketing addresses.

The consumer thinks there is choice, but all 4 brands are made by Kerry Group in one plant in Wicklow.


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## bluemac (16 May 2011)

I'm a packaging designer, and from my point of view,

firstly a good logo/mark to make sure people know it is irish milk is a good idea.. Can only help some people pay that little extra..  very little cost implications... so that should not be an issue.

Love Irish Food is a nice mark but does look like other well know logos..  problem with this is you have to pay to use up €1000 - €5000 - upwards..

Guaranteed Irish mark (never put this on your pack it looks really bad and if you ask most people they have no idea what it is)

there are several other marks out there for irish meat ect..

they wont combine them as they are all different agency's etc...

best thing we could do is design a new identity for buying irish (all produce not just food so everyone understands it) and you could make it nearly  free to use for irish produce  (small say a small reg fee of €50 to cover costs per company)   


let me know if you want one... ;-)


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