# Moving abroad later in life



## billybobmac

Unsure as to where to post this, as not specific to any particular forum, but seeking some advice on whether it's a good idea to move abroad in our current situation.

We moved back to Ireland 15 years ago and started a family. We are both now unemployed following redundancies and with two kids under 10, a mortgage, and without professions. When we left school in the 80’s third level education was not as popular, as it was expensive and grants difficult to obtain. We did fine in US, worked constantly, and gained skills which found us work back here. However, now in our forties, these skills are no longer enough, customer care requires 2nd language and unskilled manufacturing jobs seem to have disappeared. We made some bad choices, became unfocussed and confused and now find ourselves without a lot of hope for getting work. We are hard working and very willing to work, but are becoming increasingly de-motivated and fear that if we leave things fester much longer, could also lose the house.

We are now toying with the idea of moving abroad. However, without any real skills and considering our age, is this a viable choice? We have no language skills, however, we are well travelled and we both have an interest in learning new languages. We haven’t had the house evaluated yet but it cost us 230,000 six years ago, and we reckon might fetch 200,000 (not a bad location).

Has anyone any experience in making such a risky move? We know our age prohibits us from Australia and US, but maybe one of the EU countries?

I’ve trawled the internet for advise, but it is mostly aimed at young people or older professionals. If anyone can advise us it would be appreciated.

Thanks, BB


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## Lou34

We are a couple both 37 who moved to Holland almost two years ago and have never looked back.  We are not university educated but have both secured good jobs.  Quality of life is excellent and services/health second to none plus only an hour flight from Ireland for those visits home.  Also Dutch is not required for the major international companies around Amsterdam, Rotterdam, The Hague and Utrecht as the main business language is English however it is always appreciated if you make the effort.  Job market is quite good we were both working within one month of arriving.


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## billybobmac

Many thanks for your encouraging response.  I hadn't considered northern Europe before, but have always loved Amsterdam, so will have to look into it now.

No offence to you though, 35 is still young.  In my experience in Ireland employers view that extra 10 years as a liability.  I'd be interested in hearing how mature applicants are treated in other countries.  We still have 20odd years of work left in us, but just can't get back into the market.  I have a temporary job now, and I feel sure that my contract would be extended if I was younger.


Thanks again for your positive reply, makes me wish we'd made the move years ago.

BB


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## Mommah

What ages are your children Billybob?

One option is to start your own business.
Something simple...cleaning company...ironing business...???
I lived in France for a while and they often look for couples to run chalets in the Alps. It is hard work, the money isn't amazing but a great environment.

You can usually get labouring work in the summer.


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## Guest105

While the vast majority of emigrants are in their twenties and thirties, they are now being joined by a growing numbers in their forties, fifties and older. 

According to Working Abroad statistics, 8% of those leaving are 46 and over. 

http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle...led-for-work-now-im-joining-them-2571291.html

billybobmac - you are not alone and you shouldn't consider yourselves too old to leave.   I am in a similiar situation, 40's, left for London in January. it's much more difficult when you older but if you have emigrated once it is easier to do it a second time.


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## billybobmac

Hi all

Thanks for the replies, it's encouraging to hear that we are not alone!  

We have two boys, age 9 and 5.  We are looking at Gibralter for work and living in Spain - that would be an ideal situation.  The plan is to sell the house and move over there as soon as possible, I understand we will be able to collect SW payments for a limited period but we want to work asap.   We will do the TEFL courses and hopefully get a start.

Shocking to find ourselves in this position - moving backwards instead of forwards!  Hopefully in Spain or Gibralter we won't be required to possess a degree for most jobs.

Thanks!
BB


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## bullworth

billybobmac said:


> Hi all
> 
> Thanks for the replies, it's encouraging to hear that we are not alone!
> 
> We have two boys, age 9 and 5.  We are looking at Gibralter for work and living in Spain - that would be an ideal situation.  The plan is to sell the house and move over there as soon as possible, I understand we will be able to collect SW payments for a limited period but we want to work asap.   We will do the TEFL courses and hopefully get a start.
> 
> Shocking to find ourselves in this position - moving backwards instead of forwards!  Hopefully in Spain or Gibralter we won't be required to possess a degree for most jobs.
> 
> Thanks!
> BB



I hope you know what you are doing as Spanish unemployment around the southern coast, Marbella, Malaga etc is rumored to be approaching 70%, Spanish youth unemployment is about 48% and their overall unemployment level is higher than ours!


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## Guest105

Agree with the above, the unemployment rate is shocking in Spain, it would be madness to even think of emigrating there at the moment, I know of a young Irish girl there with an honours degree in English earning €5 an hour teaching english.  

Billybobmacbilly - sometimes far off hills looks green but I really think as your kids are so young you or your partner would be better off availing of the third level educational opportunities for mature students in Ireland rather than thinking of emigrating to Spain at the moment. My kids are practically grown up with only one remaining in school and I have the hassle of commuting home every other week until such time as my partner is ready to join me here. The move over to Spain alone could cost you thousands not alone the hassle and stress of trying to sell your home.


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## txirimiri

billybobmac said:


> Hi all
> 
> Thanks for the replies, it's encouraging to hear that we are not alone!
> 
> We have two boys, age 9 and 5. We are looking at Gibralter for work and living in Spain - that would be an ideal situation. The plan is to sell the house and move over there as soon as possible, I understand we will be able to collect SW payments for a limited period but we want to work asap. We will do the TEFL courses and hopefully get a start.
> 
> Shocking to find ourselves in this position - moving backwards instead of forwards! Hopefully in Spain or Gibralter we won't be required to possess a degree for most jobs.
> 
> Thanks!
> BB


 
Unless you speak fluent Spanish or are unusually gifted in picking up languages in a short space of time, I would think very seriously before moving there. I lived in Spain for 4 years and, although it is a wonderful place, if you don't speak the language it is very very difficult to negotiate your way around the bureaucracy. If you are relying on the public health and education systems, you will find it entirely monolingual. The same goes for everyday living - you will be hard pressed to find anyone in an electricity company, post office, estate agent etc who speaks English. Unemployment rates are shockingly high in Spain, salaries are very low and welfare is pitiful. If you do end up entitled to welfare for a transition period, you won't be entitled to Irish welfare rates just because of your nationality and I doubt you would be able to live on Spanish welfare rates without additional support. Have a look at this link - the short term welfare rates for a married parent of two children are between €650 and €1400 a month depending on how many years of social security contributions you have  - and there is no rent allowance, no child benefit, no fuel allowance, no back to school allowance, no FIS ....    Most Spaniards in Andalucia rely hugely on a mixture of black market employment and family support, so the number of jobs that actually pay a living wage that someone could comfortably rent a decent place and raise a family on are minimal. There may also be complications if you are working in Gibraltar and living in Spain in terms of tax and social security - you need to check this out before you go. 

Sorry to be negative but it sounds to me like you are being seriously unrealistic about the feasability of a move. Would you advise a Spaniard who spoke no English, had never lived here and had no job sorted to move to Ireland in the current economic climate? If not, why are you doing the same thing the other way around.


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## txirimiri

Sorry - didn't post the link I referred to - here it is (in Spanish only!)

[broken link removed]


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## Mommah

Agree with above.
However if you can afford to try it out bear in mind the relocation costs.
FOr example....when I moved to France it cost me around €1000 to get my car taxed, NCT'd(had to change headlights) in France. This I had to do within 30 days of arrival.

The brits living around me seemed to to have to do this, but no irish/french company would insure me otherwise. 

So if you plan a trial...it will be costly...don't sell your house for at least 2 years. You need to be able to reverse out of it. Consider renting your house. 

Consider being a chalet couple maybe in Andorra, if Spain floats your boat.
Check out  for these types of jobs.

Your kids are a good age for a move although the 9 yr old will find it hardest. They say it takes 2 years for the kids to get fluent.
My 5 yo was pretty good after a year in school but my 3 yo opted out because she had one other english speaker in her class.

My friend teaches english in France and she also works as a cleaner...they cleaning pays better.


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## Bronte

Don't underestimate the language difficulties of learning a new language (this will not be an issue for your children) the Dutch in particular are very positive about speaking English.  In other countries International companies will look for English speakers.  There are so many people doing TEFL courses that I wouldn't advise that.  You will pick up a language faster and thereby get on better if you go to somewhere there are not other English speakers.  People who go to Spain tend to not learn Spanish as they mix with the other expats, another poster has pointed out the pitfalls of life if you don't have Spanish in Spain, nevermind the job scene there currently.  If you are willing to move and make the adaptations, necessary moving abroad can be a positive.  The first year is the hardest.  It only gets better after that, but you know that as you've done it before, so think back on that experience.  Use that experience.  Best of luck and don't let your age be a negative, the retirement ages are only going one way.  9 year old will have the most problems settling in so something to watch.  Move at the end of term so they have the summer to settle in and try and invest in intensive language courses for everybody, it will be worth the effort.


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## mtk

Firstly I am sorry you find yourself having to think of doing this.
I agree with others stay away from Spain - they are in more troublle employment wise than us.
what about UK - any insights anyone ? no language issues etc.


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## Bronte

Surely countries like Australia and those hit by all these natural disasters are going to need workers to rebuild.  They may open up their visa requirements.


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## dandy

Hi, my wife and I are thinking of moving to the UK and we are in our mid-fiftys, the language is a big help and work seems easier to get there than here at the moment. I know wages are lower there but so is the cost of living.


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## billybobmac

Thank you to all replies, and for knocking some sense into us.  I guess we knew the idea was a bit high-hoped, but we are seriously getting desperate.  Savings are fast diminishing to pay the mortgage but whilst still employed on a contract we can't expect relief on that.   However, we have ditched the idea of Spain, the difficulties far outweigh our current situation so recognise it would be madness.  Oz and NZ are too far for us to take such a risk at our age.  Dandy, the UK does look interesting, except I suspect we will face the same competition for jobs as here, regarding age and lack of qualifications.  We are considering taking a trip and talking to some agencies.  Seeking work online doesn't seem to be encouraged - basically don't even bother without a UK address!


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## WaterWater

http://www.escapeartist.com/Regional_Directory/

A few interesting articles here.

If you are interested in moving to Spain, have a look here

[broken link removed]


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## Bronte

If you are going the UK route would you be better off holding onto your savings and making a new life there with those.  Does it make sense to continue with the house in Ireland if you do that?  Have you enough savings to go to the UK for a couple of months to see how easy it is to get work?


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## Guest105

dandy said:


> Hi, my wife and I are thinking of moving to the UK and we are in our mid-fiftys, the language is a big help and work seems easier to get there than here at the moment. I know wages are lower there but so is the cost of living.


 

Hi dandy,  What part are you heading over to? if it is London you won't have to wait too long before you will both be in employment.  Things have slowed down somewhat here especially in the public sector but the private sector is still doing pretty good.  Wages are only lower in some catagories it really depends on what you are doing.  Yes the cost of living is also lower especially food but remember accommodation cost are high and you do have to pay council tax.  However for your money, you will get council services that work and a health service that's free at the point of access. The atmosphere is vibrant in London, I don't see any of the doom and gloom that is so pervalent in Ireland at the moment.   

Good luck with your move and be grateful whilst you are working in England that you won't be lumbered with an universal social charge or be hit with other indirect taxation in order to pay for the sins of the Irish political / banking system.


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## dandy

Hi Cashier, we were thinking of Windsor lived there for a couple of years in the mid ninties before returning home in 97 plenty of work around Slough
and London is only 40 mins on a fast train. As you say the doom and gloom here is really getting me down and there does not seem to be any real hope of things improving for at least 8 to 10 years.I am in the engineering game and should pick up something, not looking for huge wage just enough to have a comfortable life.As for services I can only see them going one way here as cutbacks kick in I really feel sorry for young people 
starting out here.


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## Guest105

Dandy, as soon as you have an english address you  will need to contact Newcastle to get your NI number reactivated.  I hope you were shrewd enough to keep an english bank account opened since you lived there before, it will be handy for getting a mobile contract and  potential employers will be asking you for it. If you haven't got one Lloyds TSB will give you a basic current account.  Like you I left England in the nineties to bring up a family in Ireland, I dont have any regrets though, Ireland was and still is a great place to bring up kids.  I am very happy to be back in London its like a new beginning all over again.  I would honestly go demented trying to cope with the unemployment problem at home. 

billybobmac - If you do consider going to the UK, do your research well.

Have your CV's and job references available 

Totaljobs.com is a very good website for jobseekers.

Here is some information on how to go about getting a  

The [broken link removed]is an Irish agency in London offering support services in housing, employment and welfare to newly arrived immigrants. 

It might work out better for you if your partner went over first to suss things out and then when your kids finish school in the summer you will both have a good inkling if this is the best move for you at this point in time.  If you need any further more information please pm me and I will be glad to help.


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## dandy

Cashier, Unfortunatley I closed my acc. with Lloyds as I never anticipated going back. Do I still need a permanent address to open a current and if so what else will they look for? Like you I am looking forward to this move as a new start as our kids are all grown up now and we will have the freedom to do as we please. Thanks for the tips.


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## AlbacoreA

As a kid my family moved around between countries so I'm not against doing it myself with my own family. I'm not yet at the point, of emigrating myself, but it wouldn't take much to get to that point. tbh I think the whole family would be better off.


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## Guest105

You don't need a permanent address maybe you have a friend or relative who will let you use their address or you will more than likely have a temporary address when you move over, there is some more info here for Lloyds http://www.lloydstsb.com/current_accounts/new_to_the_uk.asp

You will need proof of address when opening the account, most people get round this by arranging for their Irish bank account to be updated with their english address, if you only have online statements contact your bank and ask them to update your account with your new english address and arrange for a statement to be send to your address in England shortly before you arrive yourself. 

Try these as well, they offer a basic current account but there is a monthly fee [broken link removed]


Ps The Visa Debit card available with HBSC is very convenient and is accepted practically everywhere here


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## sarahanne23

We left Ireland recently and are now living in the UK. We are in our forties with a young children and it is not so bad here. There is a recesssion but it is not as bad as Ireland. There is life in the shops, restaurants and business seems to be carrying on as usual. We both have degrees and my husband took a job here first, got settled and I followed. It's not an easy move...but the language is the same.
I would not recommend Spain at all. I have lived there and unless you speak the language fluently it is hard to survive not to mention find work.
Be aware that you pay poll tax in the UK but you do not have to pay for medical care and you have no irritaing charges lile social charges, bin charges ...the list goes on. The cost of living is cheaper...houses are expensive in the nicer areas. There is a lot to do here..plenty of nice countryside if you keep away from the inner cities.
My advice is rent a house for a while, get both names on as many bills as possible....proof of address is so important. You can open a bank account once you have an address but you need a few bills e.t.c.
Sell your car in Ireland..if seriously planning on moving to the UK in the long term. Cars are much cheaper here. Watch out for schools and do your research carefully...you can read all the school reports on the Ofsted website...and remember Catholic good schools are oversubscribed.
The advantages are you are near Ireland if you want to go back...you are escaping the doom and gloom. 
Children, particularly young children adapt quickly to moving. We have now bought a house here and feeling more settled...it's not something you should do without thinking it through but if you plan it properly it can be done.
Best of luck in whatever you decide to do....


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## Bronte

Cashier that's some great advice and links for people setting up in the UK. Maybe bits of the posts could be made into a key post as so many people are emigrating.


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## Guest105

bronte . Thanks, I will work on a more structured post  over the next few days.


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## Lingua

Hi Billybob,
 came accross your post just browsing.  First of all I really think you have worked yourself into a right state and no longer able to think clearly. In this day and age mid 40s (in this context) is definately not what it used to be. If you go to many European cities you will find people of all ages having uprooted and remade their lives. One poster here recommended Holland which I agree with. Both Holland and Belgium have so many multinationals in their capitals that you couldnt possibly be out of place. Also in both these countries , especially holland, people rent their houses as they are owned by the government - and you can find accomodation to suit all budgets. (esp in Belgium)  Most people speak English, evening language classes are given in the 'communes' (state owned) for next to nothing. Schools and health care are excellent. Work can be found in bars or hotels as a way of getting on the ladder. Get a great CV done and present yourself as willing and friendly and your there!  And maybe  you could rent out your house here?
Good luck!


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## Lingua

Hi Billybob,
 came accross your post just browsing.  First of all I really think you have worked yourself into a right state and no longer able to think clearly. In this day and age mid 40s (in this context) is definately not what it used to be. If you go to many European cities you will find people of all ages having uprooted and remade their lives. One poster here recommended Holland which I agree with. Both Holland and Belgium have so many multinationals in their capitals that you couldnt possibly be out of place. Also in both these countries , especially holland, people rent their houses as they are owned by the government - and you can find accomodation to suit all budgets. (esp in Belgium)  Most people speak English, evening language classes are given in the 'communes' (state owned) for next to nothing. Schools and health care are excellent. Work can be found in bars or hotels as a way of getting on the ladder. Get a great CV done and present yourself as willing and friendly and your there!  And maybe  you could rent out your house here?
Good luck!


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## txirimiri

Good luck with it all Billybobmac, you sound as though between you and your partner you have fantastic experience and track record of employment - hopefully that will really stand to you at the interview stage, even without the third level qualifications.


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## Lamorna

Hi BillyBobMac,

I really feel for you. Half a dozen years ago (I was in my early 30's) I lost my job in Paris and after several months, I still had nothing, so I moved to the UK where I quickly found an 'entry-level' job (like you, I don't have a degree). I was studying p/t with the OU, and hoping to graduate by 2012, and then land a good job and get on the property ladder: the future was smiling at me!

Then, in 2008, along came the financial crisis. I've managed to remain employed by moving 'entry-level' jobs and putting up with being bullied. My salary is lower than what I made in Paris back in 2001, university fees have increased, food prices have increased, electricity bills have increased, my rent + council tax is 60% of my salary. I had to shelve my OU studies for 2 years while struggling to remain employed so I definitely won't have a degree by 2012.

So, like you, I'm looking to move countries once again, though not back to France, as the jobmarket has become worse since I left, and in France not having a degree is a huge handicap. I'm not that young either and can't do the warehouse and cleaning jobs I used to do in the past: my back just won't take it.

I gasp at the thought of packing my clothes, books, CDs, and DVDs _again_, and selling or donating my furniture and crockery _again. _You're very brave to be considering this option with 2 children on your hands.

If that can comfort you, in France, I've known, not just 40-something, but also 50-something who uprooted themselves and moved to a different country, because that's where the jobs were. One 50-something lady I met at my branch in 2008 was relocating to Dubai. She probably lost her job there around 2009 though: my 2 next-door neighbours in Paris, a French-American couple, also relocated to Dubai in 2008 (after graduating from a private business school in 2007 and looking for work in vain for a whole year); in 2009, they were back. Luckily for them, their parents were well off and could pay their removal costs, and their previous landlord hadn't managed to sell the flat, because of the recession, and agreed to give them another lease.

So you have to be careful when choosing your country of destination, especially with children in tow and a shrinking eggs nest. Another option is for one of you (usually the husband) to move abroad for work, and live stintingly in a bedsit, sending back as much money as he can to the other parent at home in Ireland. This could enable you to keep the house and continue pay off the mortgage, but it's hard on both of you: I've known several French people who did this, including some of my relatives, and basically, the fathers would travel back to France nearly every weekend if they were working in Germany, and only once a year if they were working in Africa or Asia.

If you do choose to relocate abroad, you could try and look for a 'bilingual' or 'international' school for your children. It would help them feel less isolated, as they would be with other expats' children (less risk of bullying as well), and they would maintain their level of English while learning another language. These schools are usually fee-charging, but some of them do have 'scholarships', or will agree to negotiate affordable fees with you.

One thing to be wary of is the exchange rates. When I moved to the UK, £1 would buy me about 1.45 euros. Now it's worth 1.11 euros, and it's made life very difficult for me: saving for retirement in France, or paying for French private health insurance is just impossible. I can imagine that an Irishman who had got a mortgage in Ireland back in 2007, and was paying it off their salary in sterlings in the UK, could be in difficulty now. Nearly happened to me as well: back in 2007, I was considering buying a rental property in France... So now I'm looking for a country which uses euros, although if Marine Le Pen gets elected in 2012, she wants to go back to the Franc...

I hope everything goes well for you, and once again, thumbs up for your courage!


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## Lamorna

Hi Lingua and Lou34,

You should create a thread about relocating to the Netherlands, you both seem very knowledgeable! 

Did you have to take the  Inburgeringsexamen, or a language exam? Can you recommend a Dutch language method which is geared towards such exams, _and_ includes relevant vocabulary/everyday situations, such as opening a bank account; getting a job contract and getting through the relevant paperwork with HR; using Excel 'in Dutch' etc.? I've started browsing 'bol.com' for DVDs and contemporary books which I could read.

What about the 'incentives' to get on the property ladder mentioned by Lou34 in another thread? One reason I relocated to the UK is that it was much, much easier to get a mortgage (and a job) than in France (especially Paris) at the time. Now I'm struggling to remain in work, so there would be no point in applying for a mortgage. 

Renting in the UK has been a real hassle so far and I'm really concerned I might get the same problems in the Netherlands. My current flat is in a building which was 'reconverted' from offices to bedsits, so the other tenants and I could not get BT to reconnect our landlines as for BT the flats 'do not exist' (i.e. are not in their database). We had to put up with squatters (heroine addicts) for nearly 8 months: the landlords never answered or returned none of our numerous phone calls (20 flats, 30 tenants...) and the police told us they couldn't do anything about it. Then, last year, we learnt that our landlords were not paying their mortgage and that the flats had been repossessed by the bank. They didn't kick us out, but they sure tried hard to make us leave (like insisting for months that we were several months behind with our rents; changing the locks to the letter boxes without giving us new keys; changing the doorcode without telling us...), they increased our rents, and we still don't have new rental agreements. I'm so tired of this, it's an additional reason why I want to leave the UK. If there are more tenants in the Netherlands, including 'natives', and not just aliens and students, possibly landlords and real estate agencies treat tenants with a little more respect?


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## Bronte

Where did Cashier's excellent post go?


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## Odea

Yeah! A lot of work went into that?


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## Greta

Bronte said:


> Where did Cashier's excellent post go?



Here:


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## Floyd01

Yes, it was a tough situation during recession, but nowadays many people are shifting to Dubai. It may be due to their job requirements. One can shift themselves safely without any confusion with the help of the international relocation services.


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