# Do AAM members support the PublicService union(s) threat to strike over pension levy?



## Purple (10 Feb 2009)

Do AAM members support the public sector union(s) in their call for strike action in protest against the pension levy?


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## sandrat (10 Feb 2009)

*Re: Possible public sector strike*

I don't see how it will get us anywhere. The whole country should be protesting at the balls the government has made of things

Seems the government is trying to distract from the state of the country by waging a war between public and private sector workers. What we really need to do is get together and wage a war against the government so that they actually sit down with something other than the back of an envelope and come up with a detailed well thought out plan where the figures add up that give people a heads up and what to expect for the next five years.

I think public sector workers accept that they need to feel the pain but feel that they are being picked on. The private sector workers feel they have already had pain and continue to have pain with paycuts and redundancies etc. However private sector companies are starting to pay out on the national wage agreement which has been frozen for public sector workers and so the war continues between the sectors. Lets not blame the workers, whether they be public or private sector, the every day honest worker getting up in the morning is not at fault. We need to make our politicians earn their money and not stand up for this makey uppy reactionary budgeting we need to get proactive and need to do yesterday.


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## Lex Foutish (10 Feb 2009)

*Re: Possible public sector strike*

Bang on, Sandrat, bang on! With a little help from a few of their media friends.

Divide and conquer................

Beidh lá eile ag an bPaorach! Ní neart go cur le chéile!


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## Padraigb (10 Feb 2009)

*Re: Possible public sector strike*


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## sandrat (10 Feb 2009)

*Re: Possible public sector strike*


Nothing bad has been said so far. Purple is just wondering if people agree with it. I managed to post without breaking the ceasefire so I think more AAMers can do the same. Clever bunch that they are!


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## z104 (10 Feb 2009)

*Re: Possible public sector strike*

I don't think the public sector workers have many friends at the moment so I do not see much support for a strike from the majority of people in the country.


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## Purple (10 Feb 2009)

*Re: Possible public sector strike*


It’s over tomorrow so we only have to be civil ‘till then.


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## Shawady (10 Feb 2009)

*Re: Possible public sector strike*



Purple said:


> Do AAM members support the public sector union(s) in their call for strike action in protest against the pension levy?


 
Just from my experience, most of my colleagues I spoke to are not interested in strike action.

I think the union CPSU represents lower paid workers and as Cowen himself said, he was open to tweaking the 'pension levy' so I imagine the CPSU feel he has left the door open to reduce it a bit for lower paid workers. There will probably be some sort of compromise before any actual strike.


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## S.L.F (10 Feb 2009)

*Re: Possible public sector strike*



Niallers said:


> I don't think the public sector workers have many friends at the moment so I do not see much support for a strike from the majority of people in the country.


 
I on the other hand think that 350,000 working people and their families will be supporting their strike


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## DeeFox (10 Feb 2009)

*Re: Possible public sector strike*

A possible strike will be a big distraction from the very real problems in the economy.  I think the unions won't have a huge amount of support - my friends who do work in the public sector all seem to agree that they are lucky to have jobs and that the cuts could have been worse.


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## Purple (10 Feb 2009)

*Re: Possible public sector strike*



DeeFox said:


> A possible strike will be a big distraction from the very real problems in the economy.  I think the unions won't have a huge amount of support - my friends who do work in the public sector all seem to agree that they are lucky to have jobs and that the cuts could have been worse.


 Agreed, my public sector friends expected bigger cuts.


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## rabbit (10 Feb 2009)

*Re: Possible public sector strike*

They did not get any cuts, unfortunately, to bring pay in to line with the private sector - never mind pay in other countries. What the public sector got was just being told to pay more towards their very generous pensions. Even after the "cuts" ( as some in the public sector may see it ) they are still not paying the full cost of their pension. The govt will be borrowing 7000 per year to pay for each public servant instead of 8000 per year. Who will be expected to pay that back ? Your children + my children.  My public sector friends expected bigger cuts.


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## Ciaraella (10 Feb 2009)

*Re: Possible public sector strike*

Speaking as a civil servant i wouldn't supoort strike action for all the people affected by the penison levy however I do think people on lower wages for example €20,000 have been hit too hard.


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## Purple (10 Feb 2009)

*Re: Possible public sector strike*

How many public sector employees are on €20’000 a year (or are you talking about part time/ job share people)?


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## NorthDrum (10 Feb 2009)

*Re: Possible public sector strike*

No, I wont support the strike action as I dont see what it aims to achieve. Last thing we need is this government to be forced to back track again.

Sandrat was spot on . . 

This has become public v private sector at the expense of constructive planning on all our parts to work out what we can do to get the country back on track. 

People just dont want to focus on how we get things moving again (lets focus on the least important parts of the problem like getting the bankers or blaming the govt for getting us into this mess, yep mightnt sort out the economy but it sure as hell makes us feel better).

Theres disagreements and distrust on all sides of the table, each side as ignorant as the other. I still dont think that the people of this country realise what sacrifices have to be made to get things on track. Some people publically announce that they will take "the hit" for the greater good and then hide behind excuses when it actually hits them.

Personally I think the best way around this is for the government to say that people can opt to be in or out of the pension scheme. Then its their own choice, problem solved . .


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## Ron Burgundy (10 Feb 2009)

*Re: Possible public sector strike*

I feel under the average industrail wage is fair. What is that 33K. Average TD is on 178k ( including expenses ) which is 5.3 times the AIW.

Never mind the "advisors" who are on over 200K

Oh and i'm not in the union so strike is outside my remit. But i'll be  off sick that day anyway!


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## Mpsox (10 Feb 2009)

*Re: Possible public sector strike*

If they do strike, then firstly it's a saving to the Government and country as they won't be getting paid
Secondly, it would be a good way of finding out how many of the public service we actually don't need and wouldn't miss.


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## Ron Burgundy (10 Feb 2009)

*Re: Possible public sector strike*



Mpsox said:


> *If they do strike, then firstly it's a saving to the Government and country as they won't be getting paid*
> Secondly, it would be a good way of finding out how many of the public service we actually don't need and wouldn't miss.


 
1st point is quite true.

But 2nd isn't as the work not done on the thursday will have to be done on the friday. Public offices will be hit most i believe. Social Welfare etc.


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## sandrat (10 Feb 2009)

*Re: Possible public sector strike*

i'm not in the union either but am on unpaid leave, what day are the proposing the strike for


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## Ron Burgundy (10 Feb 2009)

*Re: Possible public sector strike*

its Feb 26. I'll be off having an operation but i'd cross the picket line as i have no time for unions.


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## sandrat (10 Feb 2009)

*Re: Possible public sector strike*

hmm i'll be back on pay then but on holidays so what happens there?


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## Ron Burgundy (10 Feb 2009)

*Re: Possible public sector strike*

Not in the union so haven't a clue.


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## sandrat (10 Feb 2009)

*Re: Possible public sector strike*

i'm not either


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## michaelm (10 Feb 2009)

*Re: Possible public sector strike*



Purple said:


> Do AAM members support the public sector union(s) in their call for strike action in protest against the pension levy?


I do.  A one day strike and protest would be no harm to put a shot across the bow of the Government rather than just lie down and take it.  I don't expect them to undo it but the Government's expectations need to be managed to the effect that the public sector will not accept any further unilateral cuts.  I, I suspect like most public sector workers, would be opposed to any prolonged strike action.  

The Government are to blame here so I'm sure they are happy that many private sector workers and the media are distracted blaming public workers. Ten years ago I decided to move to the public sector, for less money, to avail of better conditions and better job security; others on AAM did the same.  It was open to all to get a public sector job over the last number of years but there was, until recent times, more money to be made (and less security) in the private sector.


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## csirl (10 Feb 2009)

*Re: Possible public sector strike*

One day strike will save the Government one days pay to each striker. A strike lasting a couple of weeks would do wonders for the exchequer.


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## Ron Burgundy (10 Feb 2009)

*Re: Possible public sector strike*



csirl said:


> One day strike will save the Government one days pay to each striker. A strike lasting a couple of weeks would do wonders for the exchequer.


 
It would also do wonders for those wanting to collect social welfare, needing passports, needing visas etc.


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## Purple (10 Feb 2009)

*Re: Possible public sector strike*



michaelm said:


> over the last number of years but there was, until recent times, more money to be made (and less security) in the private sector.


This is untrue. The public sector gets paid more than the private sector and the gap has increased, not decreased, over the last few years.


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## Ron Burgundy (10 Feb 2009)

*Re: Possible public sector strike*



Purple said:


> This is untrue. The public sector gets paid more than the private sector and the gap has increased, not decreased, over the last few years.


 
Very general statement to more.

Guy in a bank gets paid more than someone running the country ( not that both aren't overpaid in the 1st place !!! )


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## cole (10 Feb 2009)

*Re: Possible public sector strike*

I congratulate the government and it's media friends for their successful apartheid approach. They have deflected and buried the real problem by dressing it in a public/private debate.

I support a strike. I'm absolutely livid. 

Perhaps someone can explain this to me... I know a couple who are a consultant and nurse. The nurse is expected to pay 6-7% of her 40k salary in "pension" contributions whilst the consultant is not on his 250k salary.

Why should I pay more tax - because that is what it is - than doctors, dentists, solicitors and accountants all of whom earn more than I do?

Why should I pay more tax when 40% of the workforce pay none?

The government squandered the last decade. It leaves the bankers who caused a lot of this mess in charge. It's a shambolic approach to fiscal responsibility. I for one won't lie down and take it.


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## Purple (10 Feb 2009)

*Re: Possible public sector strike*



Ron Burgundy said:


> Very general statement to more.
> 
> Guy in a bank gets paid more than someone running the country ( not that both aren't overpaid in the 1st place !!! )


Yes, it is a very general statement. The trouble with the whole pay debate is that everyone can pick specific cased where someone on one side or the other is getting paid too much or too little. When an employee asks for a pay increase there should be too questions asked; 1) Do they deserve it/are they worth it and 2) can we afford it (we being the employer). If the answer to either question is no then there should be no pay increase. The reality is that at the present time the country cannot afford to pay social welfare, public sector pay or anything else at present levels. Who deserves what is now a moot point.


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## Ron Burgundy (10 Feb 2009)

*Re: Possible public sector strike*



Purple said:


> Yes, it is a very general statement. The trouble with the whole pay debate is that everyone can pick specific cased where someone on one side or the other is getting paid too much or too little. When an employee asks for a pay increase there should be too questions asked; 1) Do they deserve it/are they worth it and 2) can we afford it (we being the employer). If the answer to either question is no then there should be no pay increase. The reality is that at the present time the country cannot afford to pay social welfare, public sector pay or anything else at present levels. Who deserves what is now a moot point.


 
True and good post. But i say start at the top because the ones at the bottom always end up apying. Perhaps we should kick up once and for all.


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## DavyJones (10 Feb 2009)

*Re: Possible public sector strike*



Ron Burgundy said:


> its Feb 26. I'll be off having an operation but i'd cross the picket line as i have no time for unions.



Will nurses and doctors be on strike?


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## Ron Burgundy (10 Feb 2009)

*Re: Possible public sector strike*

I don't believe so, it is the CPSU that are striking on Feb 26. The nurses have been asked at the moment to put pressure on their local TD, but they have not ruled out striking.


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## NorthDrum (10 Feb 2009)

*Re: Possible public sector strike*

Out of curiosity are the goals of the strikers simply that the Pensions levy be cancelled?

If the government offered Public servants the choice of not being in the DB pension scheme (therefore no levy), would public workers accept it?


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## sandrat (10 Feb 2009)

*Re: Possible public sector strike*

i think it is more to do with the government not listening to the unions. The unions didn't agree to the levy so it follows that the unions must put a ballot to their members otherwise they arent very good at their job


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## Green (10 Feb 2009)

*Re: Possible public sector strike*



Purple said:


> Do AAM members support the public sector union(s) in their call for strike action in protest against the pension levy?


 
Yes.



sandrat said:


> Seems the government is trying to distract from the state of the country by waging a war between public and private sector workers. What we really need to do is get together and wage a war against the government so that they actually sit down with something other than the back of an envelope and come up with a detailed well thought out plan where the figures add up that give people a heads up and what to expect for the next five years.


 
What the Government is try to do is deny its own direct role through their policies in our current woes. They created a property bubble, with keen assistance from their builder chums. Naturally, the complete lack of interest by FF in any sort of proper planning since the 1960's has aided this too. 

Indeed, Dermot Ahern's response to RTE's Primetime (see link below) last week illustrates this point. He said “no one really is responsible. It just happened that we hit a wall. There are international factors”, did you ever hear such complete rubbish! 

[broken link removed]


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## ajapale (10 Feb 2009)

*Re: Possible public sector strike*



Purple said:


> Do AAM members support the public sector union(s) in their call for strike action in protest against the pension levy?


 
Purple,

The public service pension levy applies only to the public service. It does not apply to the ESB and other commercial semi state publlic sector organisations.

I suggest your question should read: Do AAM members support the public service union(s) in their call for strike action in protest against the pension levy?

This is a small but very important disctinction!

aj


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## Purple (10 Feb 2009)

*Re: Possible public sector strike*



ajapale said:


> Purple,
> 
> The public service pension levy applies only to the public service. It does not apply to the ESB and other commercial semi state publlic sector organisations.
> 
> ...


Fair enough, feel free to edit the title.


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## sandrat (10 Feb 2009)

*Re: Possible public sector strike*



Purple said:


> Fair enough, feel free to edit the title.


 
are you on strike? can you not do it yourself?


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## Mpsox (10 Feb 2009)

*Re: Possible public sector strike*

What I am finding interesting is the reaction of private sector staff in unions towards the public sector over the levy. I know people in Impact and SIPTU who work in the private sector and are furious over the public sector staff response on the levy because they have a concern that if the public sector staff " get away with this" (not my words, but what someone said to me over the weekend) then the Govt will only end up taxing private sector workers even more.


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## Purple (10 Feb 2009)

*Re: Possible public sector strike*



sandrat said:


> are you on strike? can you not do it yourself?


 OK then, I will!


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## sandrat (10 Feb 2009)

*Re: Do AAM members support the PS union(s) threat to strike over the pension levy?*

good lad


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## Purple (10 Feb 2009)

*Re: Do AAM members support the PS union(s) threat to strike over the pension levy?*



sandrat said:


> good lad


 Thanks


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## Shawady (10 Feb 2009)

*Re: Possible public sector strike*



Purple said:


> The reality is that at the present time the country cannot afford to pay social welfare, public sector pay or anything else at present levels. Who deserves what is now a moot point.


 
I'm surprised the social welfare issue has not been mentioned more in the media. It has been constantly stated that because governemnt revenue has dropped, we can not afford a public wage bill of €20 billion. Fair point.
However no one in the media seems to want to stick their neck out and say 'The social welfare bill is similar to the public pay bill - can we not afford that either?'

The introduction of the pension levy will be a stroll in the park compared to cutting dole and old age pension.


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## Dreamerb (10 Feb 2009)

*Re: Possible public sector strike*

No-one will cut the old age pension. Ernest Blythe is still remembered with disfavour for doing so back in 1924. 

I take it there's still no VAT on children's shoes either?


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## Purple (10 Feb 2009)

*Re: Possible public sector strike*



Dreamerb said:


> No-one will cut the old age pension. Ernest Blythe is still remembered with disfavour for doing so back in 1924.
> 
> I take it there's still no VAT on children's shoes either?


 
Yes, they will continue to do what is politically acceptable rather than economically necessary.


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## Shawady (10 Feb 2009)

*Re: Possible public sector strike*



Dreamerb said:


> No-one will cut the old age pension. Ernest Blythe is still remembered with disfavour for doing so back in 1924.
> 
> I take it there's still no VAT on children's shoes either?


 
I don't think they will cut old age pension either, considering they would not cut people on civil servant pensions.
However, the wage bill and social welfare make up approx €40 billion of total government expenditure. If they don't touch social welfare bill and take €900 million from wage bill, you have to wonder where the rest of the €15 billion cuts will come from


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## Towger (10 Feb 2009)

*Re: Possible public sector strike*



Shawady said:


> you have to wonder where the rest of the €15 billion cuts will come from


 
A crock of gold at the end of the rainbow. 

The IMF is paying us a visit in :



> QUESTION: Sorry I'm jumping around the world, but we know about the confusion yesterday with Ireland. I was just wondering if there is a mission planned for Ireland. I mean I guess the thing that really struck everybody was - pretty possible that Ireland, you know, could go to the Fund just because the economy is in such terrible shape. But I was interested if there's a mission at all planned, like an Article IV, a technical mission?
> MR. HAWLEY: Okay. Well, the next annual Article IV mission to review Ireland's economy is currently planned to take place in April.


 
It will be interesting to see what they report.


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## redstar (10 Feb 2009)

*Re: Do AAM members support the PublicService union(s) threat to strike over pension l*

On the issue of public sector unions using the strike weapon to force a Govt change-of-mind about the pension levy, I think that would be counter-productive.

a. The people most hurt by strike action are the public, including those already made redundant. I just cannot see how striking would help anything here.

b. The unions would be sending the wrong message to the rest of the country. Stopping work to complain about a pay reduction, and returning to their permanent, pensionable jobs the next day. Seems very selfish.
320000+ people have already made the ultimate sacrifice - unemployment.
Will we see mass marches from them ?

c. The effect on the economy  due to disruption to public services can only make a bad situation worse. 

As someone pointed out earlier, the public and private sector needs to unite against the real culprits - (ie  Govt, senior bankers, developers) who got us all into this mess.


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## gebbel (10 Feb 2009)

*Re: Do AAM members support the PublicService union(s) threat to strike over pension l*



Purple said:


> Do AAM members support the public sector union(s) in their call for strike action in protest against the pension levy?


 
I don't support the public sector union. I know it's a very bitter pill to swallow but I think they must take this on the chin. Of course the union have to be seen to fight back or else people will simply call them toothless and spineless. At the end of the day Public service employees have job security and  still will have an excellent pension when they retire. They are not being asked to take a pay cut, rather to pay more for this pension. That's not the same thing. The country is in dire straits. Expenditure has to be curbed fast. This is a good place to start.
I don't wish to antagonize Public Sector employees. I have 3 family members who are affected by this. Private sector workers are losing their jobs. Next could be their homes. Public service workers have no such worries. This will be their contribution to the mess we are in. A mess, granted, they didn't create but that's neither here nor there anymore.


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