# Redundancy query - Am I being treated fairly



## April76 (5 Mar 2008)

I have recently been notified that I am being made redundant and I was wondering if anyone had a similar experience or any advice. Here is my story…

The company I work for was bought over by another company in August.

This company already owned one of our competitor companies so they are merging the 2 companies together and downsizing staff.

At the beginning this was called a Transfer of Undertakings but as time went on it was more of a takeover.

I was notified that my position was at risk of redundancy last November and I was brought in to a 30day consultation period which ended up lasting 3 ½ months.

At my first consultation meeting I was advised that my position was at risk of redundancy as they may be outsourcing my department but no decision had been made yet, if they decided that they would outsource there was a possibility that I may be outsourced to that company.

If not then I would be made Redundant. If made redundant they were offering the statutory redundancy as this was the precedence in my company.

There were other people in both companies mine and the competitors at risk, I was aware that the competitors were getting 6 weeks for every year worked. When I queried why we were not receiving the same I was advised that the company that bought us was not a legal entity and so the each company would be treated separately even though as far as I was concerned I was an employee of the company that had bought us.

I also queried if my position was made redundant would there be any negotiation to improve the redundancy package and they advised that they would consult on all aspects.

One month later, I received a copy of the minutes of that meeting. In this letter it pointed out the questions I had raised but no answers to any of my questions. I did not hear anything from HR since then even though I emailed looking for an update in early January but I received no reply.

Finally last week I was called to a “further” consultation meeting and in that meeting they confirmed that they would be outsourcing my department therefore making me redundant and they were still offering me the statutory rate. When I advised them again that I was not happy with this as I was aware that colleagues in the other company (which by this stage we had all moved into the same office) were receiving a lot more and I would like this to be reviewed I was advised that this was my “concluding” meeting and I had been in consultation with them since November and had not to date out in any counter proposals. I could not understand this as I did not know that I was going to be made redundant until now therefore why would I begin to negotiate until I knew for sure.

I am also 7 ½ months pregnant and I asked them to consider this as at this stage as I would be unable to get employment else where until after the baby is born so my situation is different to others affected in the company.

I received my confirmation letter of termination and they said they had reviewed my situation but they thought the terms they were offering were fair and equitable. They are still offering the statutory but they are not capping it at €600.00 but to be honest my salary is not much more than this so it works out approx an extra €400.00.

I have worked for this company for 4 years and 3 months but they are calculating the redundancy based only on 4 years. Is that correct?

They are also giving me 4 weeks notice which I have to work.

I was just wondering had anyone had a similar experience or could give me any advice. I want to make sure what they are telling me is true and that all of the steps they have taken are correct. 

As I have never been in this situation and unfortunately I have no union to represent me I am unsure whether I should take this further or would I be wasting my time.

If there is nothing more I can to I will just have to accept it and move on but I would like to make sure before I do this.


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## Martinslan (5 Mar 2008)

April76, sorry to hear about your job loss. You are 7.5 months pregnant and the company want you to work your notice. Will this take you past your Mat. Leave start date. You can not be made redundant while on Mat. Leave. The company have to wait till you return. All your holiday and S.Hols etc add up during that time and must be taken into account when in your final pay out. As must the exra "Service". 
In relation to the "Service" 4years 3 months. What does the precidence say, some companyies have service defined as "less than 6 months do not pay" great than 6 months add a full year's Sevice. Other pay to the day, ie Service is calculated from your start date to your final date. As to your question is it fair, there is no easy answer to that question. It does seem odd that HR are not willing to do better in the new set up but that is up to you and the other employees to sort out with the new owners.


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## MugsGame (5 Mar 2008)

It sounds like you are being treated very badly! I'm afraid I can't comment authoratively on legality, but here are some thoughts



> I have worked for this company for 4 years and 3 months but they are calculating the redundancy based only on 4 years.



Statutory redundancy is one weeks pay, plus two weeks pay for every year worked. Partial years entitle you to a pro-rata payment. So 4 years 3 months plus 1 month notice period, plus maternity leave if applicable.

As to who your employer is
- Do you have written confirmation of a transfer of your employment to the new company?
- What company name is on your payslips?
- Do you have a contract with your current terms and conditions? What company name is on it?
- Has anyone else from your "old company" also been selected for redunancy? What redundancy package have they been offerred?

Discrimination is legal -- they do not have to give everyone the same redundancy package. However, they must be able to demonstrate that differences in packages were not caused by discrimination on any of the grounds named in the equality acts -- such as gender / pregnancy! In the absence of them being able to prove this, illegal discrimination would be assumed as the reason. I think they are on thin ice, but it sounds like they have got advice on this.

Finally
- Your position is being made redundant, not you. This is no reflection of your ability!
- You may justifiably feel unfairly treated, but I'd try to not to dwell on this or get stressed. Yes, you want to maximise your exit package, but your health and the health of your baby is far more important. Overall it sounds like you are better off leaving this employer!


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## ClubMan (5 Mar 2008)

There is a statutory redundancy calculator on www.entemp.ie - and maybe also www.employmentrights.ie .


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## April76 (5 Mar 2008)

Thanks for your replies, 

re maternity leave, in normal circumstances I would have been due to go on maternity leave at the end of April so I will be leaving one month early.

re the employer, we received emails from the new company welcoming us to their family and I have got several emails from them saying Dear employee but when they bought us they said our contract would remain the same  as with our old company and my payslips still have the old companies name on them. 

I am going to check up on the redundancy calculation.

Thanks,


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## gallon (5 Mar 2008)

Sorry to hear about your redundancy. Having went through the same experience I would say contact a solicitor familiar with contract law. Do not sign anything at all until advised by the solicitor no matter what, you could be signing away lots of money/entitlements.

The money for a solicitor may seem a bit but it is not as they will be helpful and at least deal with the company on your behalf making things slightly less stressful which is very important at this stage.


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## MugsGame (5 Mar 2008)

Has anyone else been made made redundant at the same time as you? Otherwise, it's suspicious timing, and would support a claim of illegal discrimination.

You can elect to go on maternity leave up to 16 weeks before the baby is due, which would push out your length of service. However you must give 4 weeks written notice of this, so if they've now given you 4 weeks notice of redundancy, it may be too late to start your maternity leave sooner thereby extending your service. But *I would submit these ASAP in case they become relevant:*
- a notice stating your intention to take your full 26 weeks maternity leave in 4 weeks time.
- a medical cert confirming your pregnancy (hopefully this was already done, which strengthens your case!)
- a notice stating your intention to avail of 16 weeks extra unpaid (no Maternity benefits) leave allowed for under the 2007 Act after your 26 weeks expires. 

As gallon says, don't sign anything else. If they refuse to accept the above notices, tell them you are "acting under legal advice" and have been "advised to submit them for the record" and would appreciate if the notices could be added to your HR file. Followup with an email including the notices and repeating your request to have them placed on your file. An attempt to extend your notional service by 26+16 weeks may encourage them to revise the package on offer! 


Do you have any accrued leave / holidays and how are these being handled? They probably don't extend your service, but they may give you some wriggle room.

Potentially you could even go on Health and Safety Leave now with full pay for 3 weeks if a doctor advsed this was medically necessary, e.g. because of stress caused by an imminent redundancy!


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## Sue Ellen (5 Mar 2008)

Sorry to hear you are being treated so badly at this important time in your life.

Just wondering if you could get advice/information on [broken link removed] or on/from http://www.ciboard.ie/

Try ringing either of the above for advice.

Hope things work out well for you and your baby.


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## MugsGame (5 Mar 2008)

[broken link removed] might also be able to help.


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## April76 (18 Mar 2008)

*TUPE :Redundancy and outsourcing question*

Mod Note: This supplementary question has been merged back with the main question

Hi

I have recently been made redundant as the company I worked for was merged with another company and they decided to outsource my role to an outsource provider.

My role is an instructor where I would do classroom courses and also elearning classes. 

Someone mentioned to me that under TUPE regulations they should have offered me a position with the outsource provider. Is this true?

Also I was wondering if they made me redundant can someone from the outsourced company or existing employees who have not been made redundant  come over here to do classroom courses.

Any advice would be welcome!


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## ajapale (18 Mar 2008)

*Re: TUPE :Redundancy and outsourcing question*



April76 said:


> ..... under TUPE regulations they should have offered me a position with the outsource provider. Is this true?



I don't think the there is any obligation on the employer to get the outsource provider to employ you.

Are you in a trade union? I know that on occasion arrangements like this have been negotiated between the T.U. and the employers.



April76 said:


> Also I was wondering if they made me redundant can someone from the outsourced company or existing employees who have not been made redundant come over here to do classroom courses.



Again, I don't know of any legislation that would prohibit such a practice.


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## dodo (18 Mar 2008)

Fairly does not come into with alot of companies,sad but true.I believe you are wasting your time to be honest.Take what is on offer and if they have a good sick pay scheme then maybe you could take full advantage of this and go sick for the last 4 weeks if their sick policy  allows for you to be paid.I know it is not  a good thing to do but if you feel they are not unfair then dont get mad get even I say.You are pregnant so you deserve the extra rest and hopefully you will get paid for it. nb Get your reference of them now and say you are looking for a job.


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