# Car stolen,scrapped without knowledge in recovery centre



## currymu (7 Feb 2005)

Hi,
My car was stolen from outside my house Sept 03..It was found by the guards and they contacted a North Dublin recovery centre to pick it up.

I went down to see it with my friend and appearance wise it looked fine.  They guy in the recovery centre said the chassis was out of sync and would not be on the road again as it could not be NCT'd. They were waiting on the insurance assessor to assess it.

I rang 2 days later to go and view it again but was told it was scrapped. I told them I wanted to see the car but they said it was physical scrapped, gone. I argued that:-
1) it was scrapped without my knowledge
2) I was not given the choice if i wanted to keep car
3) My personal belongings were removed without my consent (most of the stuff was stolen in the car)
They told me to contact insurance company which I did.  The assessor assessed it in miles eventhough it should have been kilometres.  Again they offered no help here.

Scrap company offered me €50 for the car but I managed to get €200...
Insurance company offered me €500 but I got an extra €500 for the incorrect assessment so €1000 in total.
I originally bought the car for £5000.


Aug 04 nearly a year later I see a girl driving the car. I get talking to her and she said she bought the car privately last Jan 04...

I rang the insurance company and they said there is nothing they can do...but did say I should investigate the recovery company!
I rang the recovery company for certificate of scrappage - they could not give me one. 
I rang the Motor Tax Office in Shannon and they were very helpful - they faxed me the Vehicle Licensing Cert.  My signature was forged on the form by the recovery company..
I rang Consumer Affairs - they said they could not deal with this type of query
I rang Motor Industry Ireland - they could not help as the recovery garage is not a member.

I would really like some advice on this matter as maybe there is nothing I can do so should just forget about it.


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## fatherdougalmaguire (8 Feb 2005)

Sounds like a criminal matter. See if the Gardaí are interested.


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## currymu (8 Feb 2005)

I did contact a detective after I met the girl driving the car Aug 04.  His exact words were - "This happens all the time" There is nothing I can do as I cant get the car back now anyway...


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## legend99 (8 Feb 2005)

*..*

Get Joe Duffy on the case. In fairness, report the car as stolen and tell the guards that the recovery place stole it. 
Cause they did like.


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## Marion (8 Feb 2005)

Hi legend99

They paid €200 for the car. They didn't steal it. They did, however, forge a signature.

Marion :hat


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## fatherdougalmaguire (8 Feb 2005)

> There is nothing I can do as I cant get the car back now anyway...



Strictly speaking you are still the owner and the recovery yard have committed identity fraud. I can't understand how no authority could not be interested in this case.


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## legend99 (8 Feb 2005)

*..*

I would maintain that is is robbery by fraud.

And isn't it great how the insurance company couldn't care less about the fact that they paid out a grand when they shouldn't have. 
and they moan about how premiums are high and its nto really their fault...


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## currymu (8 Feb 2005)

Apparently this happens all the time....
My car was easily repaired and easily sold again.  It was a German import with Right hand drive so they knew they would have no problem selling it.

I did change Insurance companies because of the way they handled the case...


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## EAMONN66 (8 Feb 2005)

contact the guards again and find out who authorised this crowd to be called out in the first place. do they have a contract with the guards?. if so , get on to whoever arranges it. the guards might be a bit jumpy after the tyre fiasco a couple of years ago. Get the name of the guard who called them and insist that he personally sorts it out. tell them you want full financial restitution (full omsp value of car at the time + whatever you had to pay in extra ins premiums since) and to see someone criminally prosecuted. .  if he wont help, tell him that you will be writing to his superintendant and the sunday world. and you wont let it lie.

if you dont feel up to telling off a guard, you could get a solicitor to contact him in writing for you. i would guess that you would be able to claim their fees from the thieves and it might also make the guards jump.

if that fails , i would get all my family to stand outside their yard with placards and invite joe duffy and all the papers to come along and take some pictures.


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## Marion (8 Feb 2005)

> They were waiting on the insurance assessor to assess it.



Who rang your insurance company?

If you rang the company in the first instance, then more than likely the assessor told the recovery centre that it was economically not viable and to scrap it. 

The recovery centre told you to contact the insurance company when you disputed the scrappage.

Does the insurer not have a right to property under the principle of subrogation?



> *
> *Subrogation*
> 
> Once an insurance company pays out compensation it becomes the owner of the item insured.  The rights the insured person had in relation to seeking compensation from a third party pass over to the insurance company.




I'm really sorry that you suffered a financial loss as a result of this mess.It isn't fair that you were put to the additional expense of buying another car when you had a perfectly good one prior to its theft.

But, it's best to tease out all the facts before one decides to go public with the case. 

Marion :hat


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## legend99 (8 Feb 2005)

*..*

If you went public, people wouldn't really care about the legal in and outs of it I'd say...they'd just all blame the guards and insurance company because people will always back the little guy who got done for the cash...


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## EAMONN66 (8 Feb 2005)

*Re: ..*

marion, i think the key issue is that nodody asked the insurance company for compensation, merely an assesment of possible damage, im sure the subrogation thing you mention does not allow an insurance company to give out a few quid for a substantially more valuable asset,assume ownership of that asset and give 2 fingers to the rightful owner


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## Tonka (8 Feb 2005)

*Collusion is rife .*

Marion is right. You must tease out all the facts in the correct sequence.

The fact remains that the Insurance company assessors and the 'recovery' company ...read robbery company.....frequently collude in this kind of fraud where the owner of a roadworthy or repairable car is defruaded of same. 

The Insurance sector comes under IFSRA . You should consider a formal complaint through IFSRA but only   once you have done what Marion said back there . 

A similar thing nearly happened to me a few years back when I bashed the nose of my car...thereby damaging bumper grill wing (a lot of parts basically) . Once I queried the bona fides of the loss adjuster he was taken off the list of approved adjustors by Hibernian because of his shystering , he was colluding with a garage in his area .

My subsequent angle was thet the Insurance company had a duty of care to me, its client,  to generally supervise the activities of loss adjusters and to ensure that my interests were represented as far as practicable .  As I was across the country from my normal base I relied completely on them to provide me with the names of reputable loss adjusters . In fairness to Hibernian they accepted that argument in the end .


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## Marion (8 Feb 2005)

Let's take it a step further...

The car was purchased for €5000. When?

What was the market value of the car at the time of its demise?

Marion :hat


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## currymu (8 Feb 2005)

Just to answer a few questions here:-

1) I used to deal with a broker so I rang them to tell them my car was stolen and it was picked up by a recovery company in North Dublin.  They said they would contact the insurance company which they did..
2) The broker mishandled paper work regarding the stolen car - instead of cancelling the policy - they sent me out a renewal form!! So just gave up on them after that...
3) I was now in direct contact with the insurance company.  Rang the assessor a couple of times but never got a call back.
Eventually I got through to him and told him car was scrapped....He didnt have a clue...and was not at all concerned.  
4) Rang the insurance company and told them I wanted to make a formal complaint that my car was scrapped and I was not informed.

I never did write in and complain which I so regret...

I did keep a diary of events as much as possible and names of people I dealt with along the way...

I paid 5000 Irish Pounds for the car in '98..It was a German import with all the extra's. The reg was 1993 which I know is old and people think I am lucky to have received €1000 in compensation...

I puchased another car for €7000...


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## Marion (9 Feb 2005)

Hi currymu

So, you received €1200 in total (not €1000) for the car -  €1000 from the insurance company and €200 from the recovery centre. A sum regarded as very fair by your friends. Also, the guards had your car delivered to the recovery centre and didn’t charge you. That was also a cash saving to you of maybe €100 - €200. Perhaps the insurance company also paid for this?

I can understand that you were/are annoyed that you had to go out and buy a car and perhaps get a loan and pay interest on this when prior to it being stolen you were happy driving it and had more than likely paid for it. You probably hadn’t planned to buy a replacement car at the time and it may have put a strain on your finances.

You feel hard done by (as we all probably would if we were put in the same situation - especially if we had not planned to replace the car for a few years and had decided to _run it_.)

But, as far as I can see, the only criminals in this case are the thieves who stole your car. 


Marion :hat


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## zag (9 Feb 2005)

Marion,

I think that currymu does have a legitimate concern and basis for a complaint.

1) car stolen - not in doubt
2) Gardai get someone to tow it away - maybe it was causing an obstruction and had to be moved
3) tow people tell currymu that his car is in a bad state and needs to be written off and they are *already* waiting on the assessor to arrive

Since when did they have the authority to call in the insurance company and/or assessors ?  The tow people did not own the car and had no claim over it unless there is some weird salvage law in place.

4) assessor tells the insurance company that it is a write-off and it is worth €200 as scrap

Did currymu not have to call the insurers first ?

What happens if I dent my car, call the insurance company and a series of events conspire that result in my perfect car being declared a write-off by some interested party ?  Can I be evicted from my car and told to hand it over, it belongs to the insurance company now, here's a cheque for €200, and your premium is going up next year by the way.

The fact that his signature was forged should be sufficient basis for some form of complaint - he was impersonated on an official document.

Think beef processing - ah sure sign whatever you want, statutory declaration, never mind that, just sign it and get on with it, we're just telling the government what they want . . .

Maybe there was a conspiracy to defraud in the car case, maybe there wasn't but there certainly wasn't transparency which enabled currymu to evaluate whether his car was salvagable or not.

z


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## legend99 (9 Feb 2005)

*..*

Isn't a big factor to find out how much the car was subsequently sold on for by the robbery agency?
You said you meet the girl driving it....did you ask her how much she paid/did you get a contact?


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## Marion (9 Feb 2005)

Hi zag



> Since when did they have the authority to call in the insurance company and/or assessors ? The tow people did not own the car and had no claim over it unless there is some weird salvage law in place.



They don't!  Currymu's insurance broker contacted they insurance company. In effect currymu via his insurance broker contacted the insurance company. The insurance company offered currymu €1000 which was accepted
Currymu further accepted €200 from the recovery company
Currymu is annoyed. But accepts the money. He accepted compensation and therefore handed over all rights in relation to the car to the insurance company. The car was 10 years' old and seemingly currymu got a fair price. It clearly doesn't compare with your "dent in the car" case study.

*With regard to the VRT certificate*:

*Currymu* are you positive that you did not sign the form and date it when you handed it over to the recovery centre when they paid you? If not why not?

What sections of the form were filled in by you when you handed it over?

*Legend99*

Why do you think that the price the girl paid is relevant? Salvage companies will buy scrap/written-off cars and hope to make a profit.

Marion :hat


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## currymu (9 Feb 2005)

Hi Marion,

The insurance company offered me €500 but because I rang back numerous times re the handling of the case and the incorrect assessment - it was increased to €1000.

First issue here is I cant go back out to the market and buy a car for €1000...

I fought with the recovery company to get the €200. Because I am female the guy in the recovery centre thought he would get away with €50 but I knew the parts were worth a lot of money.......

It was after all this arguing, fighting, complaining and getting nowhere that I accepted the the money.  It was also getting really stressful.....I also had no car which I really could not do without...


I have all the girls details and checked the car with the insurance company when it was re-insured....She bought it for over €1000 at someones house in North Dublin....It looks like it was sold on from the recovery company to some guy who subsequently sold it to this girl.....

I have a copy of the Vehicle Licensing Cert - I did not sign it.  It was faxed up to me by Motor Tax Office in Clare.  I told them what happened and they also agreed thats is normal for this to happen.  I just cannot understand this...

I would still be driving my car if I was giving the option by the insurance company/recovery company.  I wasnt given that option...As far as I am concerned both are wrong here but the recovery company are complete outright gangsters.............

They literally took the car - did it up and sold it on without batting an eyelid....

The only piece of paperwork I signed for was the €200 which was not the Vehicle Licensing Cert...


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## Marion (9 Feb 2005)

Hi currymu

First of all, I want to say that I am just discussing this issue with you and others on AAM to try and figure out what happened. 

When you rang the insurer (after you disputed the scrappage price with the recovery centre) did they tell you that they had arranged for the car to be sold to the recovery company? 

Or, did they tell you that you could do what you liked with the car once they paid you the €1000 and that they weren't involved in the scrap price? In other words, that they weren't claiming ownership of the car.

Marion :hat


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## Marion (9 Feb 2005)

I've googled the question "what happens if my car is a write off" and the following came up for 3 companies Axa, Quinn-direct, Allianz:



> Write Off
> This means that the cost of repairing the vehicle is more than it is worth at today's market value. Our assessor will look at the car and work out what it was worth before the accident, taking into account the mileage and condition of the car. The amount we pay you will be what the car was worth before the accident, less its scrap value and any excess that applies to your policy. If we decide your car is a write off, you decide what happens to it, including selling it for scrap.
> You should suspend your policy if you are not immediately putting another car on cover.
> Axa





> What happens if my car is written off?
> 
> We will pay you the market value of the vehicle at the time of the accident but not more than the value specified in the Schedule of Insurance.





> What happens if my car is written off?
> 
> If your car is written off, you will be paid its market value at the time of the claim.




From the above examples,it can be seen that companies approach the write-off issue differently. 

Marion :hat


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## 90210 (9 Feb 2005)

*Value*

First of all will you all stop fussing about Joe Duffy , Fraud , Robbery and the lot.


What was the make and model of the car and the litre , i want to get an independent value on this car , you say it was a 1993 and i presume the car has been recently stolen.

Send me the details including mileage and i will get the book price for you.




Firsly all the insurance company and recovery service did was to take your car and assess it.

The came up with a value for salvage and a value on the market price and gave you the lot.

OK , so you then walk away with your money in your pocket thinking my car was stolen and i received the market values.

No problem there as long as you where happy with the market and i say market value.


You then happenchance on someone driving the vehicle , so what , it is not your vehicle , somebody else bought it for a value and that has nothing to do with your situation , sour grapes boy.

The only issue you have is how the insurer conducted the sale of your property and how the signature on the vehicle licensing cert is forged.

That is a criminal offence , but where is the loss , the vehicle has not been stolen , no crime has been commited as you have received payment for you goods and the change of ownership is IMPLIED by your acceptance of the insurers offer. 

However i would ask them to clarify the issue about the signature but in essence you have received payment.So what are you looking for ? unless you where not happy with the values on offer in that case you should have lambasted the insurer for scrapping your vehicle , organised your own assessor , and asked the recovery company for a salvage off , written, from the buyer.


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## currymu (9 Feb 2005)

Hi Marion and all,
I really do appreciate all the discussion and advice re my car and wish I had wrote into this website earlier..

_When you rang the insurer (after you disputed the scrappage price with the recovery centre) did they tell you that they had arranged for the car to be sold to the recovery company?_  No they never told me this....the guy in the insurance company said the assessor should have rang me and the recovery company shouldnt have scrapped car without my knowledge or removed my personal belongings without my permission.....

_Or, did they tell you that you could do what you liked with the car once they paid you the €1000 and that they weren't involved in the scrap price? In other words, that they weren't claiming ownership of the car._  No this was not discussed either.


I rang the local Garda again yesterday evening and got talking to a really helpful Guard.  He said what happened was a "Civil Wrong" and he was going to speak with the recovery company this am. He said they do a huge amount of business with this company as they work 24hr..Nothing will happen out of this but at least it might shake up the recovery company a bit.....


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## Marion (10 Feb 2005)

Hi currymu

You are probably better off in the long term with your replacement car. You might never have felt safe driving your crashed car and it might have caused you a lot of grief in the long term. Who knows?

Regards

Marion :hat


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## zag (10 Feb 2005)

90210 - currymu was told her car was scrapped and physically not available any more - presumably because it was supposed to be a cubic meter of metal.  She was not given the choice of taking her chances with what remained of her vehicle.

Imagine you give a colleague a loan of a computer or a camera or something.  They come back to you and say terribly sorry, but it got broken, it must have been worth maybe €300 here you go, better not give me a loan of anything again.  You mumble, grumble and eventually tell them they should give you €400.  Settled.

You curse your luck, go out to the shops and shell out €800 for a new one because you need to have one.

Next day you see them with your computer or camera . . . would you not feel defrauded ?  Would you accept that it was alright because you settled for the original €400 ?

z


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## fatherdougalmaguire (10 Feb 2005)

What's disturbing to me in all of this is that the recovery yard is the winner through giving false information to both you and the motor tax people. They've made money on your back (whatever about your own pocket situation). I don't think it's a question of whether or not you are out of pocket. The recovery yard is a gangster and if it's a legitimate way to make money (tell someone their car is scrap and then sell it on to somebody else) then I'm packing in my job tomorrow.

Incidentally, my own tale to tell is our car was being robbed and the guys were caught in the act. Gardaí rang the recovery yard to get it towed away, Garda arrives at the door to tell us the story (it was about 1.30am). This was after the car was taken away. They could have told the fellons to push the poxy thing back to our house (about 60 yards) but instead they saw fit to haul someone out of bed and get it towed 1.5 miles away. Then we had to pay €120 because it spent a couple of nights in the yard.


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## Marion (10 Feb 2005)

You know,

It’s a big bad world out there! Having experienced the nonsense/stress which arises when one attempts to buy a car, I can see how the situation happened. Some salespeople have no integrity whatsoever. 


On one occasion when I didn’t succumb to the sale speak of a totally smarmy salesman, he rang and gave me an earful  about how I had "betrayed my county" and offered to drop   the price - at the time £200 (a substantial sum) to match my better offer. I declined! Why didn't he offer the correct price in the first instance? I don't like playing games and I don't like time wasters.

They will tell you that your car is worth X amount when in reality it is worth X+Y.

Currymu was put in a situation which she hadn’t experienced before. The insurance company telling her it was written off seemed to corroborate the recovery centre person’s story that it wouldn’t pass a NCT test. (She was told this prior to it being assessed.)

Maybe it won’t pass the NCT. Maybe the woman who bought it will find out when it’s to be tested that it is worthless. We don’t know! But, it's irrelevant.

Currymu could have stood her ground and insisted that she get her car back and have it independently assessed and repaired by a mechanic of her choice. But, the reality is - she didn’t. That's history now. She accepted an offer which she was pleased to accept at the time - €200. She had successfully negotiated €150 more than had been previously offered by the recovery centre. 

Dougal, I can only suspect that there is some policy in place which required the guards  to send the car to the recovery centre. They were probably only doing their job. Most public sector workers are covering their backs these days - there are so many policies in place to prevent litigation!

Marion :hat


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## 90210 (10 Feb 2005)

*Zag*

Zag your logic reasoning and comparison is better left alone.

I think you are all ignoring the fact that the querist is the owner of the vehicle and also most common law principles.

The insurer should have come back to him before they assessed the querist's property. I know if it was my car i would have kicked up a storm and taken the property back , but its a question of character.


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## zag (10 Feb 2005)

*Re: Zag*

marion/90210 - maybe there is a fundamental misinderstanding here.  I don't know if it is you or me who is misunderstanding the situation.  It may well be me.

The way I see it, before being given any choice about what to do with the car currymu was told the vehicle had been destroyed and was no longer a vehicle, but this was incorrect since the vehicle hadn't been destroyed.

If currymu was given a choice and agreed to have the vehicle destroyed then I would accept that a deal was done and currymu should stand by it and if the yard subsequently decided that the vehicle could be made workable again then good for them.

As I understand it currymu wasn't given that choice and was presented with a done deal - car destroyed here's your money.

I see this as fundamentally unjust because the car wasn't destroyed.

I know it's a tough world out there.  I don't expect that all traders and retailers are going to be honest.  I do think that currymu has been defrauded of her *obviously* working vehicle.

z

[edited to replace typo]


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## currymu (14 Feb 2005)

*Re: Zag*

Hi all,

Apologies for not responding earlier....

My biggest issue here is with the recovery company who scrapped car without my consent....They lied to my face and on the phone without any consience and I cant believe the got away with it...

My second issue is with the Insurance company who agreed it was wrong what the recovery company did but did nothing about it with them or the accessor...

Marion - maybe I am better off without the car but it kills me to think the recovery company made at least €700 selling it on..

I have no update from the Guard but will follow up with him...


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