# Delays in getting court date for traffic offence



## RainyDay (7 Jun 2007)

I reported a driver to Traffic Watch for an offence which occured in Oct 2006. I gave a statement at the nearest Garda station sometime last November, and the Garda told me around January this year that he had sent in papers requesting a court hearing. I haven't heard anything else since then.

Would this kind of delay be typical? Is there any risk of the prosection becoming invalid by this long delay?


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## Ravima (8 Jun 2007)

I saw one of these prosecutions some time ago. it was one word against the other and the main witness (the person who reported the matter) was called a 'common informer' by the court. this it seems is the correct legal term. however, it sounded bad and the prosecution was thrown out as in the words of teh judge there was not enough evidence to support a convinction.


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## Brendan Burgess (8 Jun 2007)

Hi Rainyday

I have reported quite a few traffic offences. I have given detailed statements twice. There was never any follow up. 

I suspect that they might call out to the guy and have a quiet word with him. They might then send the file to the DPP who will reject it if the driver denies it happened as it's your word against theirs. 

But it's still worth making the complaint. Even a visit to their house might make them a bit more careful in future.

Brendan


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## RainyDay (8 Jun 2007)

Ravima said:


> I saw one of these prosecutions some time ago. it was one word against the other and the main witness (the person who reported the matter) was called a 'common informer' by the court. this it seems is the correct legal term. however, it sounded bad and the prosecution was thrown out as in the words of teh judge there was not enough evidence to support a convinction.


Hopefully the pictures snapped on my mobile phone clearly showing the car (incl reg number) coming the wrong way down the 1 way street and mounting the path inches from a pedestrian might address any doubts about evidence. See picture, with reg number obscured.


Brendan said:


> Hi Rainyday
> 
> I have reported quite a few traffic offences. I have given detailed statements twice. There was never any follow up.
> 
> ...


The Garda told me that he had called in the driver and taken a formal statement from him under caution at the station. I would hope that even the inconvenience factor would be a substantial deterrent.

The Garda also stated that these cases don't go to the DPP. He was to submit a file to his Supt who decides whether to prosecute for dangerous driving. But interestingly, the Garda stated that even if the Supt decided not to prosecute, the Garda himself would summons the driver for driving the wrong way down the 1-way street. This comes within the Garda's own powers.

But back to the original question - are these kinds of delays typical, or does it seem like the Garda isn't following up as he had told me he would


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## z108 (8 Jun 2007)

The board wont let me view the picture or download it 

Maybe you could upload  and link from  http://imageshack.us


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## Brendan Burgess (8 Jun 2007)

Hi Rainyday

A very interesting picture. Did you get the pedestrian to make a statement as well? 

The rules of evidence regarding photos are unusual. They are often thrown out of court. 

Brendan


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## MugsGame (8 Jun 2007)

> See attached picture, with reg number obscured.



Tampering with evidence! What else could you have changed in the picture? 

I'd be swerving dangerously if some idiot with a camera stood in front of me to take pictures


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## RainyDay (8 Jun 2007)

sign said:


> The board wont let me view the picture or download it
> 
> Maybe you could upload  and link from  http://imageshack.us



I've added a link in the original post to the version of picture which I uploaded to boards.ie some time back. Seems like only my fellow mods could see the attachment.



Brendan said:


> A very interesting picture. Did you get the pedestrian to make a statement as well?


Unfortunately no, by the time I had finished taking my pictures, the pedestrian was gone. 


MugsGame said:


> Tampering with evidence! What else could you have changed in the picture?


What's your reg number again, Mugs?


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## ClubMan (8 Jun 2007)

RainyDay said:


> Hopefully the pictures snapped on my mobile phone clearly showing the car (incl reg number) coming the wrong way down the 1 way street and mounting the path inches from a pedestrian might address any doubts about evidence. See picture, with reg number obscured.


Nothing in the picture obviously corroborates any of the above as far as I can judge. For all we know the car might be stationary. Just pointing out an obvious flaw with such evidence. I'm sure that a lawyer/barrister could do even better. But, based on what _Brendan _says above, it's probably all moot anyway.


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## MugsGame (9 Jun 2007)

> What's your reg number again, Mugs?



I don't drive (Like I said, I'd be swerving *dangerously*!).


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## RainyDay (9 Jun 2007)

ClubMan said:


> Nothing in the picture obviously corroborates any of the above as far as I can judge. For all we know the car might be stationary. Just pointing out an obvious flaw with such evidence. I'm sure that a lawyer/barrister could do even better.



Any suggestions as to how the stationary car could have got into position half-way down the 1-way street without committing an offence?


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## Crugers (9 Jun 2007)

RainyDay said:


> Any suggestions as to how the stationary car could have got into position half-way down the 1-way street without committing an offence?


 
In reverse gear?


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## RainyDay (9 Jun 2007)

Crugers said:


> In reverse gear?


On the road in question (Richmond Avenue South), the entrance at the bottom of the hill is marked as no left turn for cars from 7 am to 9.30 am in the morning, so either

1) Driver drove the wrong way down the 1-way street
2) Driver reversed into the 1-way street against the 'no left turn' sign, but stopped half way up the hill
3) Driver reversed up the street before 7am, stopped half way up, waiting for about 1 hours 45 minutes 

So which option will the judge go for?


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## ClubMan (9 Jun 2007)

RainyDay said:


> Any suggestions as to how the stationary car could have got into position half-way down the 1-way street without committing an offence?


How do we know it's a one way street from the photo?


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## RainyDay (9 Jun 2007)

ClubMan said:


> How do we know it's a one way street from the photo?



What a dumb question! The picture won't stand on its own in court. If it is accepted, it will go with my statement giving the location of the incident. Why on earth would you expect any photo to include the 'no entry' sign (which is about 50 metres back up the hill) and the 'no entry' road marking (which is also about 50 metres back up the hill)?

If you are now suggesting to the court that

a) I reported an offence involving a navy BMW on a road (Richmond Ave South) which happens to be one-way, single-lane, tree-lined and hilly, and
b) I've now supplied a picture of a different BMW on a different single-lane, tree-lined, hilly road

I'm reasonably confident that any half-sensible judge will see common sense. But do feel free to keep nitpicking away if that makes you happy. It's great to have the opportunity to rehearse these arguments before the case comes to court.

If anyone else is still reading the thread, I'll restate my original questions;


Would this kind of delay (January since Garda told me he was submitting papers to request court date) be typical? 
Is there any risk of the prosection becoming invalid by this long delay?


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## ClubMan (9 Jun 2007)

RainyDay said:


> What a dumb question!


You might want to tone down the vitriol for your court appearance if it ever happens.


> Why on earth would you expect any photo to include the 'no entry' sign (which is about 50 metres back up the hill) and the 'no entry' road marking (which is also about 50 metres back up the hill)?


I didn't. I was just pointing out some obvious flaws with this picture as a piece of evidence. 


> If you are now suggesting to the court that


Are we in court already? 


> a) I reported an offence involving a navy BMW on a road (Richmond Ave South) which happens to be one-way, single-lane, tree-lined and hilly, and
> b) I've now supplied a picture of a different BMW on a different single-lane, tree-lined, hilly road


I never suggested any of that.


> I'm reasonably confident that any half-sensible judge will see common sense. But do feel free to keep nitpicking away if that makes you happy. It's great to have the opportunity to rehearse these arguments before the case comes to court.


No problem. Of course if you tire of what you call nitpicking then perhaps you shouldn't post such queries on a public discussion forum in the first place?


> If anyone else is still reading the thread, I'll restate my original questions;
> 
> Would this kind of delay (January since Garda told me he was submitting papers to request court date) be typical?
> Is there any risk of the prosection becoming invalid by this long delay?


Did you read the earlier comments in response to these queries?


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## RainyDay (9 Jun 2007)

ClubMan said:


> Did you read the earlier comments in response to these queries?



Can you be more specific?


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## efm (11 Jun 2007)

Jeez! this is like watching your parents fighting - two mods scoring points off each other


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## Towger (11 Jun 2007)

Rainyday,

I think Brendan is right and you will not get your day in court. I regularly see cars taking a chance going down that road. It can save a mile off their trip, too much of a temptation. I can remember when what road was two way and both lanes of traffic went through only one arch of the bridge at the bottom. Lethal.

BTW I don't think digital photos are submissable in court, or so I was told.


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## bond-007 (11 Jun 2007)

If the Gardai sent the papers to the court in Jnauary they are in plenty of time as the complaint must be made by the Gardaí within 6 months of the alleged offence.

My personal experience of this is as follows, I reported a guy in a fiesta that overtook my self and a lorry on a blind bend with a car coming the opposite way. I made a complaint straiaght away and then heard nothing for 2.5 months when a garda called to the house on the day after St. Stephens day to take my statement. Nothing then for 5 months. A witness summons arrived for me to attend court 2 months later. Went to Court in July and the accused failed to appear, case adjourned for 2 weeks, again accused failed to appear, case adjourned for 4 months. This was Kilkenny btw.

Finally in November, back to court again and guess what the accused was not there again. Judge got annoyed and struck out the case. Everyones time wasted.

Just my 2 cents.


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## Seagull (11 Jun 2007)

I'd have expected the failure of the accused to appear to lead to either a bench warrant, or that they would be found guilty in absentia, rather than causing the case to be struck out.


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## bond-007 (11 Jun 2007)

The accused was a foreigner apparently and the gardai could not locate him was the story given.


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## RainyDay (11 Jun 2007)

Towger said:


> I think Brendan is right and you will not get your day in court. I regularly see cars taking a chance going down that road. It can save a mile off their trip, too much of a temptation.


I don't get your logic. I don't see how the temptation to save a mile is relevant, given that the Garda was clear that he would summons the driver himself. Who are you suggesting will decide that I'm not going to get my day in court?


Towger said:


> BTW I don't think digital photos are submissable in court, or so I was told.


I'd be very interested in any hard information on this, preferably with references.


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## iwsf (15 Jun 2007)

delays , oh yes !! i am due to court as a witness following an assault. DPP is taking the idiot who assaulted me to court. The case has already been posponed 4 times ! the fith court appearance is in a few weeks. Impatient to be there.....


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## Towger (18 Oct 2008)

RainyDay said:


> I don't get your logic. I don't see how the temptation to save a mile is relevant, given that the Garda was clear that he would summons the driver himself. Who are you suggesting will decide that I'm not going to get my day in court?


 
Well RainyDay, you and Serial Complainer have a thing about Richmond Avenue. It is now over a year later, so did the Garda bother to do anything or are I are you still waiting for your day in court?

http://www.betterdrivingplease.com/...SearchUserName=SerialComplainer&AllTypes=true

My own pet peeve is the "Bus and Access Only" road down the side of the old EBS and Irish Times HQ (Fleet Street ?). Every day minute of the day, some Tom, Dick or Harry turns right on to it. Yet the Guards do nothing, I have even pointed it out to them as they waited for the cars to top, so they could cross the road.


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## RainyDay (24 Nov 2008)

RainyDay said:


> Hopefully the pictures snapped on my mobile phone clearly showing the car (incl reg number) coming the wrong way down the 1 way street and mounting the path inches from a pedestrian might address any doubts about evidence. See picture, with reg number obscured.
> 
> The Garda told me that he had called in the driver and taken a formal statement from him under caution at the station. I would hope that even the inconvenience factor would be a substantial deterrent.
> 
> ...



A result, after over two years! The Garda who handled the case called me today to tell me the case went to court on Thursday last, and I wasn't needed as witness as my photographs and statement were available. The driver was hit for a €500 donation to charity ([broken link removed]). I'd hope that the €500 plus time off to make a statement and attend court will make him think twice about taking a short cut next time.


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## Crugers (17 Dec 2008)

Towger said:


> My own pet peeve is the "Bus and Access Only" road down the side of the old EBS and Irish Times HQ (Fleet Street ?). Every day minute of the day, some Tom, Dick or Harry turns right on to it. Yet the Guards do nothing, I have even pointed it out to them as they waited for the cars to top, so they could cross the road.


 
Possibly because it is a handy shortcut to the rear entrance of Pearse Street Garda Station...

My pet one is cars turning right from Grantham Street across the continous white line down the centre of Camden Street and on into Charlotte Way... but there again it is a very handy shortcut to Harcourt Street with its quarter mile of 'loading bay' stretching from the entrance to Harcourt Square down to Copperfaced Jacks (convient or what?)


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