# better to be a single occuppier



## Frank (19 Nov 2014)

Why would anyone sign up as anything other than a 1 person household?

a 2 person household is net more expensive to 2 1 person households.

or my maths is shocking

No need to conserve water as the price is fixed.


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## Frank (19 Nov 2014)

Hard to beat €1.16 a week


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## Frank (19 Nov 2014)

More to the point the mansion with the steam room and swimming pool pays €160 a year 


Fair and equitable.


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## seánieboy (19 Nov 2014)

*unoccupied house and water charges*

i own my own house and i also own my mothers house since she passed away last year. 

now my mothers house is unoccupied and using no water. i cannot see anything saying that i will get this house conservation grant of €100 for this house and end up paying €125 for unoccupied house water.

 meaning i will be paying €60 for water on my own house of which i am using water every day and ill be paying double the price on my mothers house of €125 of which i use no water whatsoever . could anybody clarify this situation


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## Bronte (20 Nov 2014)

Frank said:


> Why would anyone sign up as anything other than a 1 person household?
> 
> a 2 person household is net more expensive to 2 1 person households.
> 
> ...


 
While on the face of it this might seem logical.  But these things have a nasty way of coming back to bite you.


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## flowerman (21 Nov 2014)

If even 20% of people dont sign up to IW or pay then IW collapses and so too does the goverment.Theres a few FG and Labour ministers and TDs suddenly only realizing that now with the figures they have thrown out there to Europe yesterday and today.20% non complience and its bye bye IW and FG/Labour.


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## Leo (21 Nov 2014)

How does 20% not paying result in the downfall of IW?


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## flowerman (21 Nov 2014)

Leo said:


> How does 20% not paying result in the downfall of IW?


 
Its there in the papers with the figures and was well talked about on VB last night.

The Labour minister admitted that it could quite possibly happen as they dont know how things will actually pan out come next April.


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## Leo (21 Nov 2014)

I can't see them being allowed fail, Gov will continue to heavily subsidise until penalties take effect.


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## Gerry Canning (21 Nov 2014)

Leo said:


> I can't see them being allowed fail, Gov will continue to heavily subsidise until penalties take effect.


 
If you read the leaflet sent by Irish Water the Charges to be levied are to be set By Energy Regulator after Consultation with the public.

Who then has given Government the power to set the charges?
Irish Water are supposed to be a stand alone entity?


It just gets messier and wafflier and untruthful as we go on.

You couldn,t make this up !


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## 44brendan (21 Nov 2014)

I absolutely understand and appreciate the charge system based on usage and number of occupants. However, while water "conservation" is touted as the main reason for this system of charging, the whole basis behind the need to introduce the charge has been touted as the poor infrastructure currently in place. Infrastructure is a capital and maintainence cost and has no direct relationship with water usage. 
While I agree that there is a need to repair the current system and ensure that it provides clean water to all, I don't see why this cost should be allocated to water usage. What is the actual cost to the state of 1 extra litre of water once the infrastructure is in place? Surely this cost must be extremely low and may not be worth the associated expense of metering every home, sending out bills etc!! Is water actually a scarce resourse in ireland or are we merely now paying the price of lack of investment in infrastructure over the years? What logical objection can householders have for paying for the infrastructure that provides water? Should tenants be forced to pay infrastructure costs relating to a property that they don't own? This in my view is where the difficulties lie.


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## Dermot (21 Nov 2014)

I see huge problems with non payment in the Local Authority area of Housing.  How can this be enforced as there are no penalties.  Irish water will not get 90+ % compliance. When this gets traction the non compliant numbers will only grow.
So once again it will be the compliant paying their share plus the non compliant sectors share through extra taxation.

It does not seem to be a very palatable recipe for the compliant.


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## Gerry Canning (21 Nov 2014)

Dermot said:


> I see huge problems with non payment in the Local Authority area of Housing. How can this be enforced as there are no penalties. Irish water will not get 90+ % compliance. When this gets traction the non compliant numbers will only grow.
> So once again it will be the compliant paying their share plus the non compliant sectors share through extra taxation.
> 
> It does not seem to be a very palatable recipe for the compliant.


 .............
I agree Dermot.

I cannot but think this new Regime is little more than yet another ham-fisted attempt to get Government temporarily out of their self imposed problem.
I just cannot see 90% paying and as you say, add in non-payers who do not own their homes ,it gets worse.
I am getting to the opinion , to not pay for the simple reason it will stop this can being kicked down the road.

Again as I said on other threads {you could not make this up}


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## flowerman (21 Nov 2014)

Dermot said:


> I see huge problems with non payment in the Local Authority area of Housing. How can this be enforced as there are no penalties. Irish water will not get 90+ % compliance. When this gets traction the non compliant numbers will only grow.
> So once again it will be the compliant paying their share plus the non compliant sectors share through extra taxation.
> 
> It does not seem to be a very palatable recipe for the compliant.


 
 ..


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## flowerman (21 Nov 2014)

Water is payed for through general taxation.

Some of the FG and Labour ministers have even said that on TV.So what does it take for the remaining people who dont see this to finally realize that this has been the case for so many years now.

Water was never free.We have allways paid for our water through our taxes

*People are saying no to being double charged/double taxed on it.*


Its funny how I see and hear Mr Kenny and Ms Burton standing up at leaders questions every day and they say that *they are listening to the people*,but they clearly are not listening when they choose to ignore that people wont be double taxed or double charged for water.

*FG and Labour choose to ignore that so they are purposely ignoring the people and not listening to them at all.*



It also doesnt help FG and Labour when they allow one of their TDs to stand up in the Dail yesterday afternoon and slag off Dublin people,opposition TDs and also mock the people who are protesting and compare them to ISIS.

All that pathetic carry on does is put another 10,000 protestors on the street on December 10th.

Does Enda Kenny and Joan Burton stand by those comments and think that this helps their own cause????

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPXLHbtMQio


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## Gerry Canning (21 Nov 2014)

flowerman said:


> Water is payed for through general taxation.
> 
> Some of thr FG and Labour ministers have even said that on TV.So what does it take for the remaining people to finally realize that this has been the case for so many years now.
> 
> ...


 Flowerman. 

Cannot but agree that up to now we pay for water/sewage via our taxes.

What was NOT made clear to us was that these extra taxes are to make up for an ongoing lack of expenditure on water/sewage over the years.

Had these Dial Twits clearly told us that we MUST pay extra to ensure future water/sewage and that Irish Water was the proper way to go , we could have come to an agreed/fair solution.

These Dial Twits have now ensured that any solution will now lack credibility and too many people (me included) cannot sfford to trust any self serving utterances from the twits.

I keep saying {you couldn,t make this up}


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## Dermot (21 Nov 2014)

44brendan said:


> Should tenants be forced to pay infrastructure costs relating to a property that they don't own? This in my view is where the difficulties lie.



Infrastructure is a cost in providing the water service as much as actually physically treating the water. I agree with the other points in your post.  What really annoys me about it all is that 

500 million will be spent on meters over the next 3 years or so

500 million or more will be spent on setting up and running Irish water between Consultants and salaries and bonuses in the first 7 years.

We are treating twice as much water going into houses and premises than we need.

At the proposed charges it will take about 8 years to cover the metering, the set-up costs of Irish Water and the extra salaries involved. Not a cent extra for infrastructure other than the subvention from Government and borrowed money.


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## flowerman (21 Nov 2014)

Gerry Canning said:


> Flowerman.
> 
> Cannot but agree that up to now we pay for water/sewage via our taxes.
> 
> ...


 
Yes you can if your surname is Kenny,Burton or Kelly.

And where is Phil Hogan after all this mess,getting very well paid over in Europe.


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## Leo (21 Nov 2014)

flowerman said:


> Water was never free.We have allways paid for our water through our taxes



Based on that argument, all those on private supplies or group schemes, or with private effluent treatment systems should have all their costs paid for from the general tax take.


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## flowerman (21 Nov 2014)

Well its the govement ministers who are now finally admitting to allready paying for water via our taxes,so they are making things worse for themselves and for FG and Labour as a whole.
This whole IW thing is so screwed up and so messed up thats its a complete joke now.And more and more people are seeing this to be the case.FG and Labour screwed up big time and have lost the peoples confidence,trust and vote now.

The only one who came out a winner is Phil Hogan,as he got sent off over to Europe on an even bigger pay packet.He must be laughing at us all from his big comfy leather clad office chair.



Right,I have to get ready to do the school run now.

Hope you all have a nice day.


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## Leo (21 Nov 2014)

Gerry Canning said:


> If you read the leaflet sent by Irish Water the Charges to be levied are to be set By Energy Regulator after Consultation with the public.
> 
> Who then has given Government the power to set the charges?
> Irish Water are supposed to be a stand alone entity?



I did read the leaflet, but I also understand the scope of the CER's remit. The Energy Regulator set what they saw as an equitable charge for the service within the framework of the existing legislation, and based on the cost of similar services across Europe, they were in line with what would be reasonably expected. Indeed, it could have been expected given the supposed state of our infrastructure that the charges would have been higher to get closer to covering overhaul costs.

What's happened now, is the government are bowing to pressure, and extending the capped billing period, and introducing reliefs. Who has given them the power to do so? The electorate have. You'll note they haven't done is alter the volumetric charges that the CER was tasked with setting.


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## Leo (21 Nov 2014)

flowerman said:


> Well its the govement ministers who are now finally admitting to allready paying for water via our taxes,so they are making things worse for themselves and for FG and Labour as a whole.



Well, currently every tax payer pays a portion of some people's water. The goal here was to make everyone pay for their own water. Somewhere along the line that's gotten lost.


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## huskerdu (21 Nov 2014)

Dermot said:


> Infrastructure is a cost in providing the water service as much as actually physically treating the water. I agree with the other points in your post. What really annoys me about it all is that
> 
> 500 million will be spent on meters over the next 3 years or so
> 
> ...


 

So true,


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## T McGibney (22 Nov 2014)

flowerman said:


> Water is payed for through general taxation.
> 
> Some of the FG and Labour ministers have even said that on TV.So what does it take for the remaining people who dont see this to finally realize that this has been the case for so many years now.
> 
> ...




Don't believe everything you hear on TV. Tens of thousands of country people already pay water charges - local scheme connection fees alone are approx €2k - and you expect them to pay, via their taxes, for your water as well.


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## Marion (22 Nov 2014)

I don't always agree with you, but I am on the same team on this issue.

Marion


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## flowerman (23 Nov 2014)

T McGibney said:


> Don't believe everything you hear on TV. Tens of thousands of country people already pay water charges - local scheme connection fees alone are approx €2k - and *you expect them to pay, via their taxes, for your water as well*.


 

No I dont expect people to pay for any service to my house.
I pay my taxes,as does my wife so we pay for our services to our house.

You see this is where FG and Labour are desperately trying to split the people of this fine nation,they will now say,do and use anything they can to try and turn the stem of peoples anger in their favour.

Funny how Mr Kenny and Miss Burton will not answer the key question of IW being privatized and also what the charges will be after a 4 year cap is lifted.They keep on avoiding those very important questions and facts.Enda Kenny is running scared and so too is Joan Burton.
Why wont they write it into legislation or put it to a vote of the people of Ireland (refarendum on IW)?????
Because they want to privatize IW and have allways wanted to do that from the word go.The water act they set up even provides for that to happen,so Enda Kenny is now purposely avoiding the key questions and he is running scared.

I see that silly FG backbencher had to widthdraw his shocking remarks and comments from the record of the dail,where he likened water protesters to ISIS and called Dublin people scum.

Enda Kenny wants to stand beside the orignial 1916 proclamation and use it as a publicity stunt for all the newpapers to take his photograph,well he had better remember that people in 1916 revolted for this nation of Ireland and its future.So he had also better understand exactly what that proclamation stands for and understand why people are now revolting and protesting against FG and Labour too.


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## Purple (24 Nov 2014)

I am in favour of a usage based charge rather that the new lower charge which is just a tax and will not have a behavioural impact.
People are annoyed that they have to pay an extra tax. I get that. 
Now let’s put this tax into perspective; it’s lower than the RTE tax we all pay and it’s not the removal of some fundamental human right.  We do not have the right to free water, just as we do not have the right to free food or free housing. The government is duly elected and is perfectly entitled to levy taxes. People are perfectly entitled to protest against those taxes but the organisers of the protests should stop being so dishonest about their motives.

Looney Left Alliance (People against reality, The Joooeeee Higgins Parts, Paul what’s his name etc.); They protest against everything that doesn’t involve the advancement of their Extremist ideology. 
Shinners: Populism and trying to create as much noise as possible to cover up the child sex abuse scandals their leader and party are involved in.
Trade Unions: Populism; looking to get members who will in turn pay subs and in turn generate the revenue to pay their €100,000 - €150,000 a year salaries.


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## Purple (24 Nov 2014)

flowerman said:


> No I dont expect people to pay for any service to my house.
> I pay my taxes,as does my wife so we pay for our services to our house.


Are you sure? You have to pay a awful lot of tax before you are actually covering all of the cost of the services the state provides for you and your family.



flowerman said:


> You see this is where FG and Labour are desperately trying to split the people of this fine nation,they will now say,do and use anything they can to try and turn the stem of peoples anger in their favour.


 I must have missed that bit.



flowerman said:


> Why wont they write it into legislation or put it to a vote of the people of Ireland (refarendum on IW)?????


 Maybe because they don’t want to trivialise our constitution.


flowerman said:


> Because they want to privatize IW and have allways wanted to do that from the word go.The water act they set up even provides for that to happen,so Enda Kenny is now purposely avoiding the key questions and he is running scared.


 I’ve heard plenty of government proeple (including Enda and Joan) say they they won’t privatise it and are willing to legislate to that end. 



flowerman said:


> I see that silly FG backbencher had to widthdraw his shocking remarks and comments from the record of the dail,where he likened water protesters to ISIS and called Dublin people scum.


 Yes, that was a stupid comment. He should have compared them to football hooligans; a small minority of scumbags who were there to cause trouble and intimidate politicians as they carry out their duties.



flowerman said:


> Enda Kenny wants to stand beside the orignial 1916 proclamation and use it as a publicity stunt for all the newpapers to take his photograph,well he had better remember that people in 1916 revolted for this nation of Ireland and its future.So he had also better understand exactly what that proclamation stands for and understand why people are now revolting and protesting against FG and Labour too.


 That’s just silly. This is about a small tax, not universal suffrage. 


Best regards,


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## flowerman (24 Nov 2014)

Purple said:


> Maybe because they don’t want to trivialise our constitution.
> *I’ve heard plenty of government proeple (including Enda and Joan) say they they won’t privatise it and are willing to legislate to that end. *
> 
> Yes, that was a stupid comment. He should have compared them to football hooligans; a small minority of scumbags who were there to cause trouble and intimidate politicians as they carry out their duties.
> ...


 

We all heard lots of prommises and lies from Enda,/FG and Labour back at election time and all they did in the end was tell us a pack of lies.

Funny that they can make sudden changes like that for various other things but amazingly they WONT make the matter of keeping IW in public ownership a constitutional matter,if they wanted to keep IW in public ownership then they would have made it happen from the very word go.But NO they want to privatise it and they are now running scared that they have been caught out.

The water act also allows for IW to be sold off with the ministers signature.Its there in black and white for all to see,and also recently well highlighted on RTE News and also on the VB show on TV3.
Why wont FG and Labour listen to the people and also immediately ammend the water act?Its because they have allways wanted it to be set up and sold off to private sector.



We now see that IW is telling lies about its costings and figures,now we have an extra 100 million euro of a cost that they eh forgot about??Nobody is going to fall for that excuse.
Nobody trusts IW,nobody trusts FG and nobody trusts Labour anymore because of this whole farce and all the lame excuses and blatant lies that have been told.



Also can I ask you this with regards your comments over it only being a *small tax*

Do you know what the cost will be for everyone in 4 years time when the cap is lifted?
Do you know how this small tax will affect lots of people from April next year and every year after that?
Do you know how the increased rates will affect the people accross this country in 4 years time?
If IW is privatised,do you know what the water price will be?



Look at what the CER has done with regards gas and electricity bills over the last number of years.Then have a look at how many families currently cant even pay to heat or power their homes and feed their kids properly as they cant afford to switch on the gas or electricity.Those people are fighting every single day to survive and live and do the best for their kids as the Credit Union and SVP reports have shown.


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## Leo (24 Nov 2014)

flowerman said:


> No I dont expect people to pay for any service to my house.
> I pay my taxes,as does my wife so we pay for our services to our house.



But that's not how taxation works. We all pay into a central pot that funds all services for everyone. So those already paying for their water are paying taxes that pay for other people's water.

A lot of us are paying taxes to give other peoples' children an education. All of us healthy people are paying taxes to support the health services. I don't have kids, thankfully I'm also healthy, wouldn't it be great if I could decide I didn't want to pay taxes to support those services? Well, it'd be great for me in the short term, not so good for the country in the long term though.

You do realise that saying you don't expect other people to pay for services provided to you is the greatest argument in favour of water charges?


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## Leo (24 Nov 2014)

flowerman said:


> Look at what the CER has done with regards gas and electricity bills over the last number of years.



You need to look at the wider market here. Our gas rates are in line with European averages, after the sell of of the Corrib field, we don't have any national assets that I'm aware of, so we're bound by the international market there. Our electricity rates are 20% higher than the European average, but we don't have nuclear power, and how much are we paying to subsidise the terms of former state employees (with average pay & pension of ~100k)?


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## Purple (24 Nov 2014)

flowerman said:


> The water act also allows for IW to be sold off with the ministers signature.Its there in black and white for all to see,and also recently well highlighted on RTE News and also on the VB show on TV3.



Well if it was on the Krusty the Clown show on TV3 then it must be true.


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## flowerman (24 Nov 2014)

Purple said:


> Well if it was on the Krusty the Clown show on TV3 then it must be true.


 
You can try and make little of my posts all you want Purple.Also thanks for avoiding my post in its entirety.

Fact of the matter is that it was on RTE News,RTE Primetime and also on TV3 and the actual document and its wording was put up on screen to show that all that needs to be done is for the minister to sign the document and that is IW privatised.Thats all that has to happen for IW to be sold off and for Irish people to be completely hung out on water rates.The backbenchers that FG and Labour cowardly sent onto the programmes to defend this and justify this were squirming in their chairs and had to eventually admit that 1 signature and IW could be privatised.

So why wont Enda and Joan immediately ammend this act and put it in the constitiution that IW can never be privatised??
Because Enda and Joan want it to be privatised,they allways wanted that to be the case and keep on worming their way out of answering the direct question they keep on being asked.


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## flowerman (24 Nov 2014)

It will be interesting to see how many people go to this large water protest in Dublin on Wednesday 10th December.
I know there wont be as many protesters as the last time,due to this protest being on weekday,but it will be interesting to see the numbers and then see if Mr Kenny and Ms Burton still say the same one liners,"we have listened to the people" or "we feel their pain".


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## flowerman (25 Nov 2014)

This simple and straight to the point 2 minute video about Irish Water,Enda Kenny and the massive waste of money sums it up perfectly for alot of people.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVjqFA7HNwU#t=121


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## Purple (25 Nov 2014)

flowerman said:


> This simple and straight to the point 2 minute video about Irish Water,Enda Kenny and the massive waste of money sums it up perfectly for alot of people.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVjqFA7HNwU#t=121
> 
> ...




You won't catch me suggesting that there isn't massive waste by the state and all of it's agencies and minions. The fact is that Irish Water is no worse than any other semi-state body and is probably better than many. The only think that makes it stand out is that it's new.


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## Purple (25 Nov 2014)

flowerman said:


> You can try and make little of my posts all you want Purple.Also thanks for avoiding my post in its entirety.



I was referring to Vinnie Browne, not you.
I'm not sure what I ignored. I agree that Irish Water shouldn't be sold off but to put such an undertaking into our constitution would trivialise it.


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## blueband (25 Nov 2014)

Purple;1409504 I agree that Irish Water shouldn't be sold off but to put such an undertaking into our constitution would trivialise it.[/QUOTE said:
			
		

> and to not put it in would give the green light to the government to sell it off at any time in the future....bit of a catch 22 there


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## flowerman (25 Nov 2014)

Purple said:


> *I was referring to Vinnie Browne, not you.*
> I'm not sure what I ignored. I agree that Irish Water shouldn't be sold off but to put such an undertaking into our constitution would trivialise it.


 
Fair enough,Im glad thats sorted.



Problem is that Enda Kenny has his "masterplan" and he doesnt want to do a u-turn on it.Joan Burton is hanging on for dear life and will go with what ever Enda says.Joan Burton will jump as high as Enda says to jump.

Both of them are acting in a rather cowardly manner now that its all come to everyones attention over the water act and its exact wording.

No wonder FG and Enda didnt want the matter or IW being set up debated in the dail last year.They tried to screw us over on setting up IW but now things have gone pear shaped on both FG and Labour and this farce of a water company.

Enda really needs to grow up and LISTEN to what he being asked to do.
Sign it into the constitiution that IW can never be sold off and that its allways to remain a public body.

Either do that or else scrap IW as its allready costing way way too much to ever be successfull.Then go and call a snap general election and see if he and FG sill have a mandate from the people to rule this country.

Because all that IW is,is yet another "jobs for the boys" company.
Its nothing to do with saving water or repairing the 42% of leaking pipe lines,its all about making some more rich people even richer.


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## demoivre (26 Nov 2014)

Is the government paying one adult households with water supply *or *waste water services net €20 per year if they register, or are my computations unbecoming of my username ?


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## flowerman (26 Nov 2014)

demoivre said:


> Is the government paying one adult households with water supply *or *waste water services net €20 per year if they register, or are my computations unbecoming of my username ?


 
Thats a gimmick to just get your signature and details.Then in 4 years time they will hammer you on price.
Why do you think so many people are telling FG and Labour where to go now with this whole farce?
Because Irish people are not stupid and can see right through Enda Kenny and Joan Burton.


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