# How long can a solicitor string out the completion of a deed of assent??



## NOAH (20 Apr 2010)

This is an ongoing saga and to me its becoming a bit of a joke but does not fill me with confidence in the legal profession in this country.

How long should it take to complete a deed of assent granting ownership of a property to 4 children?    Its been going on since January and today solicitor now says  land registry wants a form of application signed by all 4 before deed can be completed.  They are scattered to the 4 winds and it will only take one of them to lose form, hang on to form, never get form etc etc.

In the meantime the house cant be insured!!

Ah a lovely country.

noah


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## mf1 (20 Apr 2010)

Whats with the eye rolling tone? 

I don't believe that the house cannot be insured. The property is still held in the name of the deceased and ownership as such vests in the executor. 

If the beneficiaries want their names registered, let them sign the necessary form. Honest to goodness, it is beyond my understanding why people expect things to happen without their input. If they lose the form, let them find it. Presumably they  are not babies. 

Oh - and maybe just consider changing the heading from the solicitor bashing format to one more conciliatory. 

mf


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## NOAH (20 Apr 2010)

Ok,   look at the dates,    January 2010 and its now April 2010 and it is only now the solicitor is aware a form has to be completed and signed by all 4!!  Hello am I missing something!

Its the insurance companies who are refusing to insure the house!! 

Do you still think they dont have a gripe?


noah

ps the same solicitors were handed back the keys in October 2009 and told the deceased was going back to UK to die.  And they did.... nothing.


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## Ravima (20 Apr 2010)

why exactly is house 'uninsurable'?


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## mf1 (20 Apr 2010)

NOAH said:


> Ok,   look at the dates,    January 2010 and its now April 2010 and it is only now the solicitor is aware a form has to be completed and signed by all 4!!  Hello am I missing something!
> 
> Its the insurance companies who are refusing to insure the house!!
> 
> ...



Then. get. someone. else. to. deal. with. it. 

Take control of the situation, find out what you need to do, then do it. 

"  ps the same solicitors were handed back the keys in October 2009 and told the deceased was going back to UK to die.  And they did.... nothing "

What did you ask them to do?

mf


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## Mr. C.J.H. (20 Apr 2010)

NOAH said:


> Ok,   look at the dates,    January 2010 and its now April 2010 and it is only now the solicitor is aware a form has to be completed and signed by all 4!!  Hello am I missing something!



Yes, you don't seem to have a grasp that these things take time and the actual process of registration is outside the control of your solicitor; it is dependant upon Government agencies, which aren't known for their speed. Also you don't go into specifics about what has taken place in that time and what steps your solicitor has taken. I can assure you that 3 months isn't a particularly long time to carry out a transmission. 

Anyway, what is the huge hurry? Afterall, it is just a technicality, as the property does not have to be vested in your names to sell the property because the legal personal representatives would have the power of sale without transferring the property into the 4 names.



NOAH said:


> Its the insurance companies who are refusing to insure the house!!



That isn't your solicitors fault; and, to be honest,  doesn't really make any sense, because a legal personal representative i.e. an executor has the statutory power to insure the property. What reasons are the insurance company providing regarding their apparent refusal to insure the property?



NOAH said:


> Do you still think they dont have a gripe?



Probably not, no, but in the absence of more meaningful information one can't be absolutely categoric in that regard. 



NOAH said:


> ps the same solicitors were handed back the keys in October 2009 and told the deceased was going back to UK to die.  And they did.... nothing.



I think this shows your misunderstanding and lack of knowledge of what role the solicitor plays in these circumstances. A solicitor isn't some sort of caretaker so really they were probably just obliging you with even receiving the keys, the fact of the matter, and without wanted to be too insensitive, is that such information regarding the deceased's intentions is of absolutely no relevance or significance to the solicitor whatsoever. Such information does not of itself form instructions upon which a solicitor can act. 

I know that it can sometimes come as a shock to impatient beneficiciaries, who would often prefer to inherit their gifts pre-death, but alas they must wait until death as a Will speaks only from death and not a moment before. Then there is the thorny issue of complying with legal formalities.. God forbid a solicitor would take these seriously and delay the impatient beneficiaries.


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## nuac (20 Apr 2010)

Never heard of a house being un-insurable because it was not vested in the beneficiaries.

Agree with MF1's post.


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## NOAH (21 Apr 2010)

I did a bit more digging, the house can be insured but as the deeds are in the deceased name the fee is exorbitant,  near a 1000 euro,  if deed of assent completed, its about 400  and if one moves in it  is170.  They have very little money.

The solicitors were the executors of the mothers will and the deceased was the stepdad who was allowed to live in house until death.  The executor has retired but is still the executor.   I dont know why the deceased name was put on the deeds in the first place but it sure is mucking things up.

My main point which may not have been clear is  " Why is it only now the solicitor has realised that an application  form has to be completed to obtain the deed of assent"!!  If  they  did as asked back in January 2010 it would be processed by now.

Am I missing something or not making  myself clear!  A deed of assent costs about 85 euro and on speaking to another solicitor can be done within 24 hours.  They cant move from existing solicitor as executor can stipulate who deals with the matter.   The keys were handed in to the executors office for the reason stated.

They don't want to sell.

And I took up the wrong profession and too old now to change.

nearly 4 months to complete a deed of assent?

noah


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## mf1 (21 Apr 2010)

You got all your answers the last time you raised this issue in January/February. 

It is very easy to roll your eyes, talk about "lovely country"  etc.,etc., when what you are actually talking about is a messy situation involving (a) a mother (b) a step dad (c) 4 offspring spread to the 4 corners and (d) an uncle, a death some years ago, a more recent death of the holder of a life interest,  and recognition of the issues involving, frankly, beneficiaries who want it all done yesterday and at no cost. 

Of course, when  someone chooses to focus only on  "How long can a solicitor string out the completion of a deed of assent??" - it makes a great headline and deflects all the attention  away from the other significant issues. 

mf


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## Vanilla (21 Apr 2010)

NOAH said:


> I did a bit more digging, the house can be insured but as the deeds are in the deceased name the fee is exorbitant, near a 1000 euro, if deed of assent completed, its about 400 and if one moves in it is170. They have very little money.
> 
> 
> 
> noah


 
This sounds like utter nonsense. We insure houses all the time via brokers where we act in an estate and the only difference to the insurance company is whether or not the house is occupied. If you are really being told this by an insurance company I think you should change companies.


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## NOAH (21 Apr 2010)

@vanilla,  can you name a few companies or pm me.

@mf1,  thanks for replies but I cant for the life of me see why its messy.  And I would love to know where the complications set in.

1.  Mother leaves a will - bequeathes house/estate to offspring with proviso for second husband to take 30% or stay in house, he choose the latter.  The executor is aware of all this from the outset.  He now knows a deed of assent is required to complete his role.  The second husbands name goes on the house deeds and for the life of me I cant see why this was done.  The request was made in January  and it is only now solicitor makes them aware of a requirement to complete an application form to prepare deed of assent.  So basically if one of them refuses to sign the form there will never be a deed of assent completed!!

I am not in the will and I still think its a disgrace the way its been handled so far.

And in relation to my other posting, all the advice therin was followed, one of them met with solicitor, twice, furnished death cert for the stepdad, sent quite a number of emails.  And called in last week for the 3rd time and indicated if deed of assent was  not completed as agreed he would seek help of another solicitor.  



noah


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## mf1 (22 Apr 2010)

"So basically if one of them refuses to sign the form there will never be a deed of assent completed!!"

Read this and weep at the attitude of (some) clients. 

mf


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## NOAH (22 Apr 2010)

Its interesting that not one reply has come up with a logical, legal,  simple,  understandable,  believable,  realistic,  concise, and factual explanation on how long  it should take to complete a deed of assent.

I rest my case.


noah

@cjh  the executor is a retired partner of the firm that is completing the deed of assent.


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## Ravima (22 Apr 2010)

I fear that the insurance problem related to 'occupancy/unoccupancy'. if house was insured pre death, then the current insurers simply change title from 'Mr/Mrs X'  to 'Reps of the late Mr/Mrs X, deceased' or some similar wording.


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## lawrose (27 Apr 2010)

Noah - one of your questions is why was the stepdad ever put on the title to the property at all?

The answer is that he was entitled to be registered as "limited owner", i.e. the life tenant or the life interest.  The folio would state:
" Mr X of whatever address is Limited Owner.  Note. Mr Y and Mrs Z are trustees of the Settlement for the purpose of the Settled Land Acts..."  

(Y and Z will be the trustees named in the will.)

To register the successor(s) of a limited owner, i.e. the four children you mention, a Form 64 has to be lodged with the Land Registry along with the death certificate of Mr X.  Each party must sign the Form 64.  

As for why it's taken from January to April to complete this, I can't answer for someone else - so why don't they ask directly why it took so long.  Maybe the solicitor does have a reply - maybe they needed to get the executor/trustee in to check everything with them first.  Maybe it's pressures of work - we don't drop everything immediately to register successors of limited owners - UNLESS the clients have stated that it's extremely urgent and they need it done very quickly to facilitate something else.  No-one would imagine there was any great urgency to this matter unless specified.


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## j26 (27 Apr 2010)

Lawrose, are you aware that the law on limited owners has changed significantly since 1 December 2009.  Form 64 is no longer applicable, as legal title now vests in the trustees, and the limited owners legal ownership has been converted to an equitable interest only. It's a complex situation, particularly if no trustees were appointed, and if there is indeed a limited ownership involved, it would be astounding if it was ready for registration after 4 months.


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## lawrose (28 Apr 2010)

Yeah J26 - how could I forget the 143 page long Act that came in last year!!  Yikes!

You're correct of course - huge changes in trust law affecting limited owners, trustees and remaindermen.  I have a very complex issue on these matters on my desk at the moment and really struggling to get to the thorny issues!  My earlier post was a quote from the other side's solicitors letter - which was written a good while back.  We only now have instructions to proceed - and the law has changed in the meantime!  Back to the drawing board.


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## nuac (28 Apr 2010)

Agree the 2009 Act has made major changes.   PRA run very good seminars on it which are well worth attending.

Must confess that I never fully understood the rule in Shelly's case - and now it is gone!

The last time I remember such a sea change was when the 1974 Finance Act replaced the old death duty system with the current CAT etc system


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## rockofages (29 Apr 2010)

NOAH said:


> I did a bit more digging, the house can be insured but as the deeds are in the deceased name the fee is exorbitant,  near a 1000 euro,  if deed of assent completed, its about 400  and if one moves in it  is170.


I had similar difficulties. By a stroke of good luck I ended up using a broker in Cavan town who deals with Lloyd's who was able to insure the house essentially as a holiday home with addendum outlining the situation attached to the proposal form, and agreed by me and Lloyds. The cost was €270, whereas the next best I could get was €900. Most places wouldn't insure the house at all, including Axa who insured it when it was occupied.



			
				Ravima said:
			
		

> if house was insured pre death, then the current insurers simply change title from 'Mr/Mrs X' to 'Reps of the late Mr/Mrs X, deceased' or some similar wording.


I specifically asked in the local Axa office for them to do this in my case but they refused. They had no problem giving me a pro-rata refund tho for the remainder of the existing policy.


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