# Problem tenant wont quit, worried I might lose house



## WoriedLndlrd (30 Sep 2009)

Apologies for the long post, situation a bit complicated, but here are the facts:

  A new tenant moved into my house six weeks ago. A few days after he moved in, the bank informed me of an increase to the mortgage (don't want to get into the details of the mortgage, but basically I expected some increase but not an increase of this size).

  I can't afford to rent the house with the new mortgage (I don't have the money to make up the shortfall) so have to sell the house.

  Figured the best thing to do was to put up the house for sale immediately and let the tenant know the score as soon as possible, rather than wait until the new mortgage kicked in.

  Met the tenant about a week after he moved in, told him the situation. I felt it was fairest thing to return his deposit and month's rent in full so he could get a new place without being out of pocket. He seemed understanding. To keep it official, I gave him 28 days notice in writing anyway, which he was fine with, and reckoned he'd have a new place sorted out in a couple of weeks. Didn't register with prtb as figured a few days tenancy didn't count (previous tenants have been registered).

  The next day, he demanded a large sum of money to move out. When I declined, he said he'd smash everything in the house if I didn't pay. When I explained that if I had that much money, I wouldn't have to sell, he said he'd wreck the house so badly that I'd never be able to sell it. This went back and forth for about an hour, and eventually he seemed to accept that I genuinely didn't have the money he was looking for (not that his actions would be ok if I did have it--it's still extortion or whatever).

  The "For Sale" sign keeps disappearing from the house, and the auctioneer reports aggressive behaviour from tenant whenever he calls to house (these visits are arranged by me with tenant in advance, so don't understand what's going on there). I should point out that tenant has never physically threatened me, although he had a few of his mates in the room when he demanded the payoff money (but no direct threats to me).

  We've met and spoken several times, and each time he tells me he's moving out in a few days, and then changes his mind. The 28-day notice period expired last week. He says he'll move out over the weekend, but I don't expect that to happen. Obviously selling the house while all this is going on is pretty difficult (not that it would be a piece of cake if the house was empty, but it would definitely be easier).

  I really don't want to have to get the guards involved (don't want bad feelings) or get a solicitor involved (can't afford it), but am realizing that this guy may never move out until forced to do so—by the time that happens (I've read all the eviction posts) the bank will probably have repossessed the house anyway.

  [FONT=&quot]If anyone has any helpful suggestions, I'd really appreciate it.[/FONT]


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## sam h (30 Sep 2009)

*Re: Problem tenant, worried I might lose house*

Get you registration into the PRTB ASAP (€140 as it's late).

Yes they can be useless & pointless....but you won't be able to deduct the mortgage interest paid without this, especially as it looks like it could drag on.  

Have you followed all the correct steps, notice in writing, correct duration etc?  I wouldn't worry too much about his bad feelings.


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## WoriedLndlrd (30 Sep 2009)

*Re: Problem tenant, worried I might lose house*



sam h said:


> Have you followed all the correct steps, notice in writing, correct duration etc?



Yes, 28 days notice given in writing a week after he moved in. I believe 28 days is the correct duration for anything less than 6 months.


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## AlbacoreA (30 Sep 2009)

*Re: Problem tenant, worried I might lose house*

Did the tenant not have references ?


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## Bronte (1 Oct 2009)

*Re: Problem tenant, worried I might lose house*

You have to be very careful here. If you're lucky he will move out at the weekend. If he doesn't I would do everything to make his life as unpleasant as possible but always keeping within the law. You will find that going to the gardai will be of no use to you. But I would make a complaint to the gardai of his threat to wreck the house. A record of your complaint on this may be needed by you later but I agree that you should register with the PRTB and also start a case against the tenant based on the threats and non payment of rent etc. The tenant that made such an abusive threat to you should be barred from renting property, it is despicable behaviour. I hope you have all utilities transferred into his name.

In case he doesn't move soon you should meet with your bank and try and reschedule your loan repayments.


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## sadie (1 Oct 2009)

*Re: Problem tenant, worried I might lose house*

Go to the police station today and make a report and give the person's name and any other details you have. Report that he has threatened to smash up the place. And has tried to extort money off you.
In the event that he does do extensive damage at least they know who did it. If he does it and you haven't reported him threatening to do it in advance, you can't prove it was him that did it.
So get that report in now. The gardai may have some advice for you on how to handle it from their own experience. 

You can go to Citizens Advice for free legal advice so you know where you stand legally.


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## MonkeeMan (1 Oct 2009)

*Re: Problem tenant, worried I might lose house*

when he is out move into the house and change locks. when he comes back tell him he moved out like he told you and call the guards if he attempts entry. how are you to know he didn't move out when he said he would - it is just as if he had moved out and left some of his gear there.


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## Bronte (1 Oct 2009)

*Re: Problem tenant, worried I might lose house*

That's a very naughty idea Monkeyman and illegal.


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## JoeB (1 Oct 2009)

*Re: Problem tenant, worried I might lose house*

but is it illegal?

As Monkee says, the guy said he'd move out by Thursday for example... so on Thursday it's reasonable to assume he has moved out, and the landlord moves back in and changes the locks, then ring the tenant telling him the stuff he left is available to be collected..


How does a tenancy usually end?, is the tenant expected to sign something?..


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## Bronte (1 Oct 2009)

*Re: Problem tenant, worried I might lose house*

If you do evict the tenant he will probably take a case to the PRTB which will cost up to 20K (which was the last cost I saw a landlord ordered to pay for this but the award could be lower. Remember eviction is a serious matter. 

One can weight up whether this is a resasonable cost to doing what monkeeman suggested it and it could in certain cases be cheaper than having an unlet property for 2 years with no money to pay a mortgage and a tenant leaving the property seriously damaged. Not trying to scare the landlord here but that is obviously the worst case scenario.


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## WoriedLndlrd (1 Oct 2009)

*Re: Problem tenant, worried I might lose house*

Update: Just got a call from tenant's solicitor saying I was trying to illegally evict tenant and that I shouldn't contact tenant directly. It was a pretty bizarre conversation, got the impression that the solicitor knew his guy was chancing his arm. I guess I have to get a solicitor myself now. Although realistically I can't see the bank waiting for their mortgage payments while this is resolved.

By the way, I see that this has been included in a key post on landlord problems. As has been pointed out elsewhere, I'm one of those people who didn't set out to be a landlord, but kind of fell into it. Obviously, regret the whole thing now.


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## Bronte (2 Oct 2009)

*Re: Problem tenant, worried I might lose house*

Franky I find it strange a solicitor would telephone you. This is not normal. Do you have his name, number and office address? You ought to check if it is real. If it is then today you need to register with the PRTB. You need to have all your ducks in a row. At the same time as you send off the registration, (by registered post) you send off a complaint to the PRTB. Then you get a solicitor who is experienced in this area and then you need to send proper notice. Have you made the complaint to the gardai?


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## JoeB (2 Oct 2009)

*Re: Problem tenant, worried I might lose house*

Yes, sounds strange. If the solicitor requested that you don't contact the tenant then you must have the solicitors details, I'd check them as Bronte suggested. Ring the solicitor and ask him what's illegal about what you're doing? Why should you not contact the tenant directly? He should be able to provide detailed answers to these questions. The tenant signed the lease.. so he is your point of contact.

How did the solicitor say you were 'illegally' trying to evict tenant.. you served the correct notice as per the lease.. so how is that illegal?

If the tenant says he is moving out on Thurs, and he hasn't paid rent past that date then I feel you should just move back in.. why not? If the tenant did move out and the house remained empty would you never move back in?, waiting for a call from the tenant that may never come? So what is it you're waiting for?, for the tenant to nicely ring you and tell you he's left?...


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## Guest110 (17 Oct 2009)

*Re: Problem tenant, worried I might lose house*

I once heard of a farmer in Kells who had travellers on his land. He told them to leave but they wanted compensation - squatters rights.He gave them some time to get off the land and if they were not off the land by the time that he got back, that he was going to manure the land. 

Needless to say, they never moved off the land, but as soon as the manure touched their caravan, they were off on their merry way.

Can something like this not be done ????


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## 087nancy (17 Oct 2009)

*Re: Problem tenant, worried I might lose house*

I've had a lot of experience with solicitors in the last couple of years (custody,selling house,maintenance) and never,ever has the other person's solicitor rang me! I do have enough solicitor's letters to wallpaper my house however.


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## Setanta12 (17 Oct 2009)

*Re: Problem tenant, worried I might lose house*

I wouldn't regard any conversation with a solicitor without a letter as serious.

I also had problems tenants (duscussed elsewhere on this firum), I got in a 'friend' who stood over the tenants while they packed their belongings and they were gone in a 1/2  hour. I did have immediate difficulty afterwards where there was a break-in but none thereafter. 

Sc-mbags generally don't go to the PRTB.


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## Butter (17 Oct 2009)

Is it not much more likely that your tenant got his mate to ring you posing as a solicitor?  If he gave you his name, address and landline contact number I would check it out and see if it legitimate.  Somehow I doubt it!


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## nolo77 (17 Oct 2009)

Marg said:


> Is it not much more likely that your tenant got his mate to ring you posing as a solicitor? If he gave you his name, address and landline contact number I would check it out and see if it legitimate. Somehow I doubt it!


 
My first thought also!


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## delgirl (17 Oct 2009)

*Re: Problem tenant, worried I might lose house*



MonkeeMan said:


> when he is out move into the house and change locks. when he comes back tell him he moved out like he told you and call the guards if he attempts entry. how are you to know he didn't move out when he said he would - it is just as if he had moved out and left some of his gear there.


Yes, very naughty, but sometimes it works.  

A friend of mine, who was at her wits end with debts mounting up, did this after her tenant had fallen behind with 10 week's rent (he paid weekly) - she agreed a date with him to move out, sent him a registered letter, had proof of delivery of the letter, no response from the tenant.

She went to the house on the agreed date, he wasn't there, some of his belongings were, changed the locks, contacted his employer and he agreed she could drop his belongings off at his place of work.

The tenant was a public servant and was employed.  He just stopped paying the rent for no apparent reason.

By this stage she was down 10 week's rent and two skips to remove all the rubbish and damaged furniture from the house.  She had to find the money to pay the mortgage for 3 months until she got another tenant.

The law is totally biased in favour of the tenant and it's about time something was done to protect landlords who are themselves in finanical difficulties and are relying on their tenants to pay the rent on time to cover the mortgage repayments.

The PRTB is too slow - there should be a small claims court system which allows for such disputes to be heard quickly so as to minimise the loss to the landlord and to protect the tenant if they have a genuine complaint.


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## Complainer (17 Oct 2009)

*Re: Problem tenant, worried I might lose house*



delgirl said:


> She went to the house on the agreed date, he wasn't there, some of his belongings were, changed the locks, contacted his employer and he agreed she could drop his belongings off at his place of work.
> 
> The tenant was a public servant and was employed.


Something fishy about this story. No half-sensible employer is going to get involved in a dispute like this. Most public sector employers are very, very cautious on HR matters. I find the idea of the employer agreeing with the landlord hard to believe.


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## z107 (17 Oct 2009)

Tell the tenant that you went to a solicitor and they said it would be cheaper to pay him off. Say that you agree to his terms, because you're desperate at this stage.

However, you can't get his money until you sell the house. He'll have to move out before you sell it. Tell him you'll draw up a contract for him to sign.

Wait for him to move out, sell the house, and let him take you to court for his money.

Work on his greed as much as you can.


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## Yorrick (18 Oct 2009)

A threat to commit criminal damage is an offence under the Criminal Damage Act( not sure what year). Also the behaviour of the tenant might even amount to harassment which is also an offence.  Take a note of every conversation, interaction which you have with this gent. There is nothing wrong with you recording these conversations secretly. Also if you have the opportunity take  photographs of the house, internal and external in its present state. 
Notify your local Garda station that the tenant has made these threats to damage your property. If you don't get satisfaction at the station write directly to the Superintendent and and request a meeting. Get full details also from your estate agent about the hassle he ges wheen he calls

There is too much of this bullying by tenants going on.


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## delgirl (18 Oct 2009)

*Re: Problem tenant, worried I might lose house*



Complainer said:


> Something fishy about this story. No half-sensible employer is going to get involved in a dispute like this. Most public sector employers are very, very cautious on HR matters. I find the idea of the employer agreeing with the landlord hard to believe.


I think his boss was shocked by the fact that he hadn't paid his rent as he was in full-time employment and there was therefore no obvious reason for the non-payment.

She indicated also that the employer felt for the landlord who was herself falling into debt due to the tenant's actions and he therefore agreed to take the employee's belongings.


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## Complainer (18 Oct 2009)

*Re: Problem tenant, worried I might lose house*



delgirl said:


> I think his boss was shocked by the fact that he hadn't paid his rent as he was in full-time employment and there was therefore no obvious reason for the non-payment.
> 
> She indicated also that the employer felt for the landlord who was herself falling into debt due to the tenant's actions and he therefore agreed to take the employee's belongings.


If this is what happened, the employer was very naive. It was crazy to make a decision like this based on one side of the story. In fact, it was crazy for any employer to get anyway involved in this.


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## Redmond (18 Oct 2009)

*Re: Problem tenant, worried I might lose house*

Joe
I had a few criminal tenants over the years. I felt each time that I was being hijacked and brought into a nightmare with little legal prospect and disgusted that that was all the legal industry could offer with life savings at stake. Its a very lonely isolating experience, now imagine having that on a foreign property in a socialist country. Strangely the deal is rather the same. Generally, they buzz off at about month 6 provided you have taken some measures.

IN one case in Dublin, I applied enough pressure that the abusers buzzed off eventually. On the day of departure, having for 3 months believed the property was lost, I did a quick check and found they had left but a window left broken and I got in. Door locks had been changed.  I called police, detective came round. I explained problems. He said he had property himself and that same had happened and he could not use force, like force the door by breaking it. However, he did say he got lock smiths in when they were out and put their stuff in boxes outside and had a bouncer outside to ´´explain' the situation to the tenant when they returned. The tenant cannot enter again if door is jammed. Anyway the tenant left in my case on strength of strong legal letters. Turned out they had falsified refs and were in fact social security cases. The agent who gave me these tenants then appears before a hearing of the Auctioneers Society, there was a que out the door of people complaining against the agent. The young agent just sat at the hearing and refused to say anything all the time that the most serious questions were put to him. he has been in a fraud fo some kind with getting in bogus tenants. So they risked loosing dole-drink money if they were caught taking the social security money without passing it over to Landlord as rent allowance. Check with Social security in the area and explain, they will talk.

OK that was one case. Second case, involved professional fraudster operating internationally. IN fact, she had several apartments and landlords in absolute agony over occupation of several apartments in the same building including mine all unknown to each other. She was in fact the daughter of a well known statesman on the continent and had the strongest lawyers represent her in her crime. She was taking apartments and subletting them in europe to americans as 'short term lets'. Here is what happened. After a few months I was able to establish names of other abused landlords. They were all very reluctant to give information. Frightened of their lives of being charges with something illegal. I offered the apartment for sale and got the agent in to take photos then posted it on the net when the tenant was still in occupation. I explained what was going on to the agent. He was a decent sort of type and here is what he advised...........he was a letting agent and he was extremely alarmed that he might be taken for a ride by an abuser tenant.............He said the "key factor here is to show that you are not acting alone, this is what they thrive on".........what you have to do is hit them from several angles..............get many letters coming at them from different directions from different people.............make social security enquirees, advertise prop for sale............make sure they understand things are happening, that many people are watching...........have some phone calls made from surveyors for acsess................establish what times they are in and out.......this worked in the end, get prespective buyers to phone tenant seeking access. Eventualy the tenant got frightened that she would be caught on criminal terms and sentenced. You are still enitled to inspections. Write to their solicitor (under guidance from yours) and suggest you are thinking of making a complaint to law society for facilitating the crime similar,, copying in a few people on the letter head , e..g. residence group leaders in the solicitors home area ...do some research on the solicitor opposing you by net. A lot of them have their details on their websites. But clear this with yr solr first. IN fact you dont have to send the letters on, only just to the perpetrator and then ´´forget about the rest´´ , I mean the various heads of state you have copied in. Its terrible but your property has been hijacked and the cops use these tactics all the time. Also the water supply probably has contamination. Remind them of this.  Give a water sample to the councl and ask the to test it. Tell them it is contaminated and there is a good chance they will confirm it (even if it is completely sterile). All this is deeply cynical but you are dealing with criminals.

There is a lot of baloney in Ireland about ´´Illegal´´ when you are being trounced by an abuser.........there is very little enforcement in Ireland in favour of the abused and lots in favour of the abusers. Its not a level playing field, derelict one, so you must play it a bit. OK you cannot hire in the heavy gang but you can slowly build a fire under your abusers from several angles and it does work. I think that was the best advice I got from that letting agent on the continent and it worked. A key point is that once the situation gets legally heavy for your tenant, his friends, if they know there are many involved, they will buzz off from their friends quickly.

A word about physchotics. IN the physchotic mind of the criminal, they view the landlord as a person who is fair game if they the tenant have asked to give a  favour, or leniency or cooperation. They tend to have an invisible deep roted hate of authority figures and an opportunity to punish probably stems from abuse during childhood. They tend to be concerned by all round exposure as opposed to a one on one confrontation which is hidden and sometimes what crime is about. Visibility and consensus of wrong doing is a great fear.

Finally, go to cop shop. bring a greyish looking person in a suit as a background witness. Sarg will meet you and all chances are that he will say fairly quickly, sorry no chance, civil territory. However, do this: Arrive to station : use following words: I want to report a criminal threat. Desk cop will generally do a bit of pussyfooting asking you to understand this is not a criminal case and paperwork is slow and all that. Be specific and very short on words. WHen he refuses, ask him if that particular station is not available to report crime, is it actually closed?, could he recommend one which does accept crime report? Be polite. Short on words. But take no prisoners. Make sure he understand you have a witness who could be your solicitor lurking in the background in the grey suit. This will liven things up a bit. All going well, you could get your tenant a visit from police and a trip to Garda station to give a nice statement. You will also give one just as you said, you have been threatened with menacing behaviour, threats make no doubth about it. Dont underplay it. This tends to help the tenant understand that things are just not so simple.

If there is one piece of advice I got for operating in hostile territories and that is as follows:"walk the walk, talk the talk and dont show that you can be negotiated" And that can mean not hanging around to negotiate. This is YOUR property not some drifter who is out to get the whole world.


Finally, if all this is not showing good returns on investment, contact a security company that specialises in property. The bank does this for example. Basically, they will send in a bouncer to get a leg in the door. he then refuses to leave and occupies the bathroom on the first few days and reads a few mags and then tenant has to go to shop and eventually they make themsleves at home plus some body smells in living room, all the time staying overnight. It will cost a few grand anyway. The type of security people who do this have a certain special rapport with abuser tenants and often an abuser tenant can come to understand how well he sleeps and entertains for his new visitor. 

Now some might say that all this is not completely diplomatic but still to make an omlette you have to break a few eggs. Remember going to pussy foot tenants rights forums will give you advice on how to avoid confrontation with the legal system but nothing more. The faster you get yr tenant out, probably the lower is your overall cost. You dont have to get directly involved in this yourself, you can do it as a campaign at a distance. Perhaps indeeed it is better not to be seen by the tenant. A vital ingredient is social security who represent authorities. If the tenant is camming you, there is a good chance they are scamming others. A good piece of information is to have the date of birth and social security number of you tenant when you visit the local dole office and make sure you leave you phone number so they can get back to you.

When you get yr property back, go through it carefully and check if any special tricks have been left. IN my case, needles had been left concealed  in places that could have result in serious injury. Check if bills have been closed, what address was left to ESB. 

All this sounds awful but you cannot let it benignly unfold in front of you.

Good luck.


RB


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## Buddyg (19 Oct 2009)

*Re: Problem tenant, worried I might lose house*

Well done Redmond some of the worst advice I have ever read. 


Redmond said:


> Joe
> 
> IN one case in Dublin, I applied enough pressure that the abusers buzzed off eventually. On the day of departure, having for 3 months believed the property was lost, I did a quick check and found they had left but a window left broken and I got in. Door locks had been changed. I called police, detective came round. I explained problems. He said he had property himself and that same had happened and he could not use force, like force the door by breaking it. However, he did say he got lock smiths in when they were out and put their stuff in boxes outside and had a bouncer outside to ´´explain' the situation to the tenant when they returned. The tenant cannot enter again if door is jammed. Anyway the tenant left in my case on strength of strong legal letters. Turned out they had falsified refs and were in fact social security cases. The agent who gave me these tenants then appears before a hearing of the Auctioneers Society, there was a que out the door of people complaining against the agent. The young agent just sat at the hearing and refused to say anything all the time that the most serious questions were put to him. he has been in a fraud fo some kind with getting in bogus tenants. So they risked loosing dole-drink money if they were caught taking the social security money without passing it over to Landlord as rent allowance. Check with Social security in the area and explain, they will talk.


Illegal eviction. 15-20K for the tenant which you would have a hard time recovering in lost rent and damage. 





Redmond said:


> Finally, go to cop shop. bring a greyish looking person in a suit as a background witness. Sarg will meet you and all chances are that he will say fairly quickly, sorry no chance, civil territory. However, do this: Arrive to station : use following words: I want to report a criminal threat. Desk cop will generally do a bit of pussyfooting asking you to understand this is not a criminal case and paperwork is slow and all that. Be specific and very short on words. WHen he refuses, ask him if that particular station is not available to report crime, is it actually closed?, could he recommend one which does accept crime report? Be polite. Short on words. But take no prisoners. Make sure he understand you have a witness who could be your solicitor lurking in the background in the grey suit. This will liven things up a bit. All going well, you could get your tenant a visit from police and a trip to Garda station to give a nice statement. You will also give one just as you said, you have been threatened with menacing behaviour, threats make no doubth about it. Dont underplay it. This tends to help the tenant understand that things are just not so simple.


Falesly reporting a criminal offence is actually a criminal offence. Any 'criminal' tenant as you incorrectly call them will know their rights and will understand the civil nature of situation making the Gardai redundant. I suppose you see it as part of your campaign of terror that would only really work on good tenants.



Redmond said:


> Finally, if all this is not showing good returns on investment, contact a security company that specialises in property. The bank does this for example. Basically, they will send in a bouncer to get a leg in the door. he then refuses to leave and occupies the bathroom on the first few days and reads a few mags and then tenant has to go to shop and eventually they make themsleves at home plus some body smells in living room, all the time staying overnight. It will cost a few grand anyway. The type of security people who do this have a certain special rapport with abuser tenants and often an abuser tenant can come to understand how well he sleeps and entertains for his new visitor.
> 
> Now some might say that all this is not completely diplomatic but still to make an omlette you have to break a few eggs. Remember going to pussy foot tenants rights forums will give you advice on how to avoid confrontation with the legal system but nothing more. The faster you get yr tenant out, probably the lower is your overall cost. You dont have to get directly involved in this yourself, you can do it as a campaign at a distance. Perhaps indeeed it is better not to be seen by the tenant. A vital ingredient is social security who represent authorities. If the tenant is camming you, there is a good chance they are scamming others. A good piece of information is to have the date of birth and social security number of you tenant when you visit the local dole office and make sure you leave you phone number so they can get back to you.
> 
> ...


 
Another illegal eviction meaning more money out of your pocket. Unfortunately you seem typical of many of the landlords in this country and thankfully legislation is there to protect the home status of renters. Do you think the banks should send in the 'bouncers' if somebody falls  behind their mortage payments by 6 months?


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## murphaph (19 Oct 2009)

*Re: Problem tenant, worried I might lose house*



Buddyg said:


> Do you think the banks should send in the 'bouncers' if somebody falls  behind their mortage payments by 6 months?


Do you think a landlord with a €1000 per month mortgage renting a €1000 per month house should subsidise the accommodation for someone else?


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## Buddyg (19 Oct 2009)

*Re: Problem tenant, worried I might lose house*



murphaph said:


> Do you think a landlord with a €1000 per month mortgage renting a €1000 per month house should subsidise the accommodation for someone else?


 
Do you think a bank and its shareholders with €700 per month interest payments should subsidise the accommodation for someone else?


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## delgirl (19 Oct 2009)

*Re: Problem tenant, worried I might lose house*



Buddyg said:


> Do you think a bank and its shareholders with €700 per month interest payments should subsidise the accommodation for someone else?


This is a totally different situation, the bank is hardly likely to go bust because someone defaults on their mortgage repayments.

For landlords who rely on the rental income to cover their costs, it is devastating when tenants not only don't pay the rent, but refuse to move out to allow the landlord to find someone who is willing/capable of paying.


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## Buddyg (19 Oct 2009)

> This is a totally different situation, the bank is hardly likely to go bust because someone defaults on their mortgage repayments.


hahah no that would never happen. How about the 400 or so banks in the USA that went bust in the last year or the maybe all the Irish banks that rely on state support to stay in business. 

The two situations are comparable. The methods banks use to recover their money are fair and legal but the average Irish landlord prefers the cowboy approach and I enjoy nothing better than seeing them lose 20K for their disgusting actions.


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## murphaph (19 Oct 2009)

Buddyg said:


> hahah no that would never happen. How about the 400 or so banks in the USA that went bust in the last year or the maybe all the Irish banks that rely on state support to stay in business.
> 
> The two situations are comparable. The methods banks use to recover their money are fair and legal but the average Irish landlord prefers the cowboy approach and I enjoy nothing better than seeing them lose 20K for their disgusting actions.


You don't know much about the situation if you think illegal evictions are the norm buddy.

The PRTB leans heavily in favour of the defaulting tenant. They act at a snail's pace when someone decides to simply not pay their rent (and thereby begin stealing accommodation from their landlord who has no choice but to find the money to pay the bank).

Illegal evictions cost the landlord dear, so they are not common at all. Landlords end up spending thousands of Euro on legal fees trying to get thieving tenants out. I see you never answered my question about whether a landlord who is just keeping his head above water should go to work to pay the mortgage for someone else to live in, cost free? (ie, steal the accommodation from the landlord).


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## Buddyg (19 Oct 2009)

> I see you never answered my question about whether a landlord who is just keeping his head above water should go to work to pay the mortgage for someone else to live in, cost free? (ie, steal the accommodation from the landlord).


Your question was idiotic. 

Renting accomodation is a business so I don't care for bleeding heart stories any more than any other business owner.  Landlords should follow the rule of law in evicting non paying tenants and in recovery of money. If they don't like the current legislation they should have never got in the business. 
If they were more professional in running their business then they wouldn't feel the need to break the law. Most of them would be better off out of business.


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## murphaph (19 Oct 2009)

Buddyg said:


> Your question was idiotic.
> 
> Renting accomodation is a business so I don't care for bleeding heart stories any more than any other business owner.  Landlords should follow the rule of law in evicting non paying tenants and in recovery of money. If they don't like the current legislation they should have never got in the business.
> If they were more professional in running their business then they wouldn't feel the need to break the law. Most of them would be better off out of business.


Still evading the question then. I'll pose it again so....

Is it ok for a tenant to simply stop paying rent and expect the landlord to go to work and pay for the roof over the tenant's head?

Is it ok for someone to steal from a shop until the shopkeeper goes out of business?


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## sam h (19 Oct 2009)

> Landlords should follow the rule of law in evicting non paying tenants and in recovery of money. If they don't like the current legislation they should have never got in the business.


 
The problem is that it can take a complient landlord in excess of 6 months to get an non paying tenant out of a property.  The PRTB (which is there to govern the industry) is next to useless.  Even after 6+ months waiting to get rid of a bad tenant, they likihood of recouping rents and/or damages to the property is practically zero.

Luckily, most tenants are not bad, just as most landlords are fair.  It's alway the few bad apples who give entire catchments of groups a bad name.  I would agree with you on one thing, Redmonds advice is outrageous & should not be condonded


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## Buddyg (19 Oct 2009)

I told you it was an idiotic question or at least a rhetorical one. Of course it is not ok. 

Do you advocate a landlord breaking the law to recover monies owed?


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## murphaph (19 Oct 2009)

Buddyg said:


> I told you it was an idiotic question or at least a rhetorical one.


As idiotic as comparing a small time landlord to a large bank with government bailouts to back them up, no doubt. ;-)



Buddyg said:


> Of course it is not ok.


That's all you had to say like a good lad. 



Buddyg said:


> Do you advocate a landlord breaking the law to recover monies owed?


No, but I can understand a landlord who is about to lose his property to repossession using more direct tactics than relying on the absolutely useless PRTB (whom landlords totally fund ironically).


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## Buddyg (19 Oct 2009)

The PTRB is not useless. Landlords have a perception that it is because so many of them are in the wrong. They are in independant ajudicator and will find against tenants if they haven't paid rent. It may be a slow process but such is the nature of the legal process. 
Its the fault of landlords if they are running a business with zero contingency money for non paying tenants.


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## murphaph (19 Oct 2009)

Buddyg said:


> The PTRB is not useless.


Ever had to call on it? Ever registered a tenancy with them and waited for the confirmation? 



Buddyg said:


> Landlords have a perception that it is because so many of them are in the wrong.


Or in the right. 



Buddyg said:


> They are in independant ajudicator and will find against tenants if they haven't paid rent.


Eventually, maybe. However the landlord's property could well be gone by the time they get around to a judgement and then what happens when the tenant ignores the PRTB?



Buddyg said:


> It may be a slow process but such is the nature of the legal process.


It was sold to landlords as a fast track system and hence the €70 charge for every tenancy (and the repeating €70 charge every 4 years even when tenants don't move out)  was supposed to remove the problems from the slow legal system (the courts) and speed it up. It has totally failed to do that and all landlords would gladly return to the old system.



Buddyg said:


> Its the fault of landlords if they are running a business with zero contingency money for non paying tenants.


How much contingency should a business have to put aside? A years rent or more? Should a landlord really have €15,000 on standby to pay for the roof over a thieving tenant's head? 

The PRTB is a disgrace. If it could adjudicate cases in 6 to 8 weeks I would accept that. It doesn't even answer letters or confirm tenancy registrations in 6 to 8 weeks buddy, did you know that? It has nothing to do with the process being innately slow and everything to do with the PRTB being generally useless. An organisation that takes months to write a simple letter of confirmation has failed. Admit it.

Even in cases where landlords have been threatened with death/beatings by particularly nasty tenants the PRTB process designed to deal with extreme cases fails. There was a case on here where an elderly landlord was being bullied and threatened with a shotgun (a real one) and the PRTB REPLIED to his URGENT letter EIGHTEEN MONTHS LATER to BEGIN the proceedings against the tenant! Luckily in the mean time he'd been arrested for something else IIRC. But the PRTB are great lads aren't they.


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