# Award wining restaurant - complaint



## shaking (27 Mar 2009)

We recently went for dinner in an "exclusive" restaurant in Dublin.  Not somewhere we'd normally go but it was a special occassion and we had a voucher so we thought we'd treat ourselves.  

The evening was a disaster, there was a 45 min wait between courses, the beef was really tough and stringy and the monkfish dry.  A bottle of water and wine were left at the end of the table to pour ourselves and we barely saw a waitress all night.

When the bill came I opted to remove the 12.5% discretionary service charge which ended up with the manager quizzing me quite agressively. He started with is there a problem here, and went on to tell me everything I was saying was untrue.  Of the 5 tables sitting in our section 3 complained and the other 2 were only on starters.

I wrote to the owners complaining and got a letter back bascially saying sorry to hear that please come again and we'll do better.  The meal cost €147 for 2 courses for 2 and a half bottle of wine, should I just let it go?

Sorry about the long rant!


----------



## mercman (27 Mar 2009)

No, don't let it go. Write back immediately stating you want a refund with immediate effect. Otherwise just tell them that you will name and shame, and hopefully the other people that complained will do the same thing. A multitude of complaints is far more effective that a singular instance.


----------



## Caveat (27 Mar 2009)

How bad was the food?  If it was OK but poor for a 'top class' restaurant that's one thing, but if it was simply bad - poor quality, poorly cooked and with poor service, personally I wouldn't have eaten it or paid for it, and would have gone somewhere else while I could.

Agree with mercman too.


----------



## shaking (27 Mar 2009)

The portions were tiny which I suppose it normal enough for these types of places. The beef was 3 different cuts of beef, the fillet meant to be the star attraction was the smallest piece of beef I've ever seen it was a perfect circle and about the same size as my 3yr old niece's palm. Then there was a wafer thin square of corned beef and something that looked like a stock cube. The fillet took a bit of carving and was stringy. I probably should have sent it back but as we waited almost an hr for it I didn't want to sit for that long again.  I said it to the manager and he said that was fair enough, acknowledging the delay.  The Monkfish was of a bigger size but quite dry.

We were given a drink from the bar as an apology, we then ordered irish coffees instead of dessert. After a 30 min wait I cancelled the order and asked for the bill.  The couple at the table beside us had been waiting 40 mins for their bill when we left, I thought the gent was going to explode with annoyance.


----------



## TLC (27 Mar 2009)

You have every right to complain & get a refund (if they know anything about customer service - which, form what you've said they may not!).  Personally I would have complained about the wait - but I do understand that when you are having a special night out you don't want to do that.  I hope you get a full refund


----------



## shaking (27 Mar 2009)

Thanks for the responses, I've sent another letter off this morning will let you know how I get on.


----------



## mercman (27 Mar 2009)

Go for it. And name and shame the culprits who do not mind charging excessive amounts but fail in their offerings.


----------



## David_Dublin (27 Mar 2009)

You are always better off telling the waiter that your food is not up to scratch as soon as you get it, and send it back, rather than waiting til you get the bill. You didnt give them a chance to put it right. Some people in the trade take it that you're just looking for excuses not to pay a tip, these people are probably earning half what they used to and the waiting staff are probably doing their best. This can account for their behaviour, though it is entirely unacceptable.

Re waiting 45 mins between your meal, my wife and I like to have a good break so we can have a chat. We also like to be left alone, so it's horses for courses. When we go somewhere really nice we tell the waiter what interval we want between courses, or at least say dont be rushing out the main course straight after the starter.

It would drive me mad to wait 30 mins for a drink, or any length of time for the bill. Rather than sit there and stew I would go looking for someone. And I'd show my annoyance, they might not be so suprised to not get a tip if you did so. 

I feel for you. We rarely go out to very good places, and when we do there is such expectation. It's hard to take when it does not even come close to meeting that expectation.


----------



## sam h (27 Mar 2009)

Your best bet is always to complain at the time - to be fair small portions can be standard in those type of places, but the food should be beynd reproach.  

I understand this can ruin a night, but at this stage they have your money & you have memories (albeit, bad ones).  It would be worth calling back to talk to the manager & explain you didn't want to make a big issue on the night as it was a special occasion.  Their offer of compensation was in the form of Irish coffees, which never arrived, so you feel they still need to offer something to compensate for having your evening ruined.  Your best bet is to do this at a busy time.....obviously you start by having a discreet conversation, but if he isn't listening, you may need to speak abit louder.

We had a horrible evening in a well known (& expensive) Chinese restaurant.  We stood our ground & refused to pay the full amount as the food was inedible (the plates were brought back almost full) & the service was slow and rude.  At one stage she said she was going to call the police if we didn't pay & we simply offered her our phone to make the call - they charged half the bill & we haven't been back!!


----------



## MrMan (27 Mar 2009)

I don't see how anyone should expect a refund after eatin everything and drinking 2.5 bottles of wine.


----------



## shaking (27 Mar 2009)

I also like a bit of time between courses but a 45 min wait for your starter doesn't make sense. After our main course I mentioned the beef to the waitress in a very polite way Ii said I just wanted to make the chef aware of it. They brought us a complimentary drink. We then tried to order dessert on my 4th attempt I managed to get the waitress to come over that's when we ordered Irish Coffees. I don't think a 30 min wait for a drink is acceptable.

The gentleman at the table beside us asked for his bill four times and still hadn't got it when we left.  If the beef had been tough and that was the only problem I wouldn't be making an issue of it. But the fact is the waiting staff never came near us all evening, they didn't ask how our meal was and took so long to bring the bill that I had enough.  My original plan was to remove the 12.5% discretionary tip and leave 5%, even though it wasn't deserved. After the manager getting agressive we removed the tip all together.


----------



## shaking (27 Mar 2009)

MrMan we didn't eat everything there was plenty of food left on the plates and we had a half bottle of wine not 2.5. We would have had more had anyone being around to offer us a drink!


----------



## Smashbox (27 Mar 2009)

I have to agree that you should have done more on the night other than bring it up at the end when you took off the 12.5%... you should have alerted the staff/manager at every turn. Did you eat the food?

*crossed with previous posts!*


----------



## shaking (27 Mar 2009)

We complained after the main course which is when the problem started, we then complained again when we ordered dessert (drinks) and again when it didn't arrive. The only other time we could have complained was before the food arrived which would have been jumping the gun a bit!


----------



## Smashbox (27 Mar 2009)

If a place doesnt bring me the bill, I walk to the bar or go to walk out, they soon come running with it then.

If I had recieved such bad service, I would have walked out when I recieved the main and seen that it wasnt nice. I would have just left it and refused to eat it. 

I certainly wouldnt have attempted to order dessert or coffees


----------



## UptheDeise (27 Mar 2009)

In cases like these I don't think you are legally entitled to a refund. Hopefully though the manager will make good on your compliant and offer you a refund, probably in the form of a voucher. But would you go back there again though?


----------



## shaking (27 Mar 2009)

Smashbox I see where you're coming from, however it was a special occassion I didn't want to make a big deal. I let the waitress know about the beef, the manager then came up and gave us a drink as an apology.  I didn't want it to ruin our evening I tired numerous times to get the waitress' attention about dessert eventually did and we ordered after so long a wait I cancelled it.  They knew we weren't happy about the service and that none of the tables around us where either.

Maybe I should have done more on the night, I'm not used to eating in such establishments and I guess I was a bit unsure of the done thing - I guess I'll know what to do if it ever happens again.


----------



## Guest128 (27 Mar 2009)

What sort of place pre-adds service charge for *two* people


----------



## Dreamerb (27 Mar 2009)

Always better to complain as soon as a problem emerges, but the restaurant appears to have been most inept - a 30 minute wait for Irish coffees after they already knew there was a problem is very poor indeed.


----------



## David_Dublin (27 Mar 2009)

So what restaurant was it?


----------



## MelF (27 Mar 2009)

FLANDERS` said:


> What sort of place pre-adds service charge for *two* people


 
TGI Fridays do, although I doubt the OP is talking about there


----------



## Guest128 (27 Mar 2009)

MelF said:


> TGI Fridays do, although I doubt the OP is talking about there



I did not know that, I would nearly charge for my service of eating their slop!


----------



## MrMan (27 Mar 2009)

shaking said:


> MrMan we didn't eat everything there was plenty of food left on the plates and we had a half bottle of wine not 2.5. We would have had more had anyone being around to offer us a drink!


 sorry i read 2 and a half where you had actually said 'courses for 2 and a half bottle of wine'


----------



## fitzg (27 Mar 2009)

Originally Posted by *FLANDERS`*
_What sort of place pre-adds service charge for *two* people _

Avoca on Suffolk Street also adds a service charge, regardless of number of diners


----------



## Guest128 (27 Mar 2009)

fitzg said:


> Originally Posted by *FLANDERS`*
> _What sort of place pre-adds service charge for *two* people _
> 
> Avoca on Suffolk Street also adds a service charge, regardless of number of diners



Thanks for the tip, another spot I wont be visiting then!


----------



## meatmonger (27 Mar 2009)

left to their own devices the average tip left in an irish restaurant is 3%
that is a fact.  you pay them peanuts....

service added to bills is fine if the service is v good and warrants it, if it is not, then you are entitled to ask for it to be removed.  This is something that needs to be done more.

also, a restaurant can only really react to feedback on the night.  If a dish isn't good enough, it shouldn't be paid for.  A good restaurant will know this and deal with it there and then based on feedback.

If this restaurant has this shabby service and food for any period of time, a great thing happens, people stop going.  It also requires people to name and shame such restaurants.  Its a great democracy we live in.


----------



## tootsie (27 Mar 2009)

Some times you eat the food literally because you're sat there so long and you're starving.

 It's dificult though for an establishment to take your complain seriously if your plate is clean. Complain after the first bite. No point complaining about it when it's eaten and the chef can't see the problem.


----------



## David_Dublin (27 Mar 2009)

meatmonger said:


> left to their own devices the average tip left in an irish restaurant is 3%
> that is a fact.  you pay them peanuts....
> 
> service added to bills is fine if the service is v good and warrants it, if it is not, then you are entitled to ask for it to be removed.  This is something that needs to be done more.
> ...



Where did you get that 3% figure? 

Whatever the average works out as, in my experience working in and frequenting restuarants, people either pay a tip or dont. When they do it is usually around the 10 to 15% so the 3% figure, if not made up, is certainly misleading.

You are entitled to ask anything you want, but if the service is stated as being added and is not at the discretion of the customer then you are no entitled to have it removed no matter what the level of service.


----------



## mercman (27 Mar 2009)

David_Dublin said:


> but if the service is stated as being added and is not at the discretion of the customer then you are no entitled to have it removed no matter what the level of service.



How can you state that service charge is not at the discretion of the customer. One goes to a restaurant for food, not to give tips. I always used to give a tip and in the last fortnight I have stopped. Unless the service is exemplary they can get stuffed. Too many stories of the staff not getting the service charge so I have no hard feelings. If good, leave them cash otherwise and things might improve. Nobody is ever thanked for a tip so they just might remember you next time you go in for leaving nothing. The way things are restaurants should be happy with your custom.


----------



## meatmonger (27 Mar 2009)

David_Dublin said:


> Where did you get that 3% figure?
> 
> Whatever the average works out as, in my experience working in and frequenting restuarants, people either pay a tip or dont. When they do it is usually around the 10 to 15% so the 3% figure, if not made up, is certainly misleading.
> 
> You are entitled to ask anything you want, but if the service is stated as being added and is not at the discretion of the customer then you are no entitled to have it removed no matter what the level of service.


 
the 3% is an average.  indeed some leave 10%.  its an average from a study of IRISH restaurants in 2005 and it hasn't imporved since.

Consider not leave tips in restaurants that do not go to staff.  if in doubt, just ask.  and it the service is not up to scratch, have it removed from bill. simple.


----------



## Sherman (27 Mar 2009)

meatmonger said:


> the 3% is an average. indeed some leave 10%. its an average from a study of IRISH restaurants in 2005 and it hasn't imporved since.
> 
> Consider not leave tips in restaurants that do not go to staff. if in doubt, just ask. and it the service is not up to scratch, have it removed from bill. simple.


 
The staff get paid a wage don't they? I don't agree with this effective obligation to give them another 10-15% of the bill as a tax-free tip. I don't tip the bus driver in the morning, do I? I'll tip for great service, or where the atmosphere is good - I won't tip for derisory service which is all too common in Ireland.


----------



## meatmonger (27 Mar 2009)

Sherman said:


> The staff get paid a wage don't they? I don't agree with this effective obligation to give them another 10-15% of the bill as a tax-free tip. I don't tip the bus driver in the morning, do I? I'll tip for great service, or where the atmosphere is good - I won't tip for derisory service which is all too common in Ireland.


 
course they get paid a wage, not as much as the bus man,  €8.65 per hour mostly. their job is mostly thankless, and even thought of as beneath plenty irish people these days.  they don't earn enough to pay tax, so stop attacking them.  There is no obligation to tip and thats how it should be.  when you get pleasant service and they go beyond taking an order and putting a plate in front of you, then tip.  And, as another posted - if you never tip, never expect anything out of the ordinary.


----------



## MrMan (27 Mar 2009)

meatmonger said:


> course they get paid a wage, not as much as the bus man, €8.65 per hour mostly. their job is mostly thankless, and even thought of as beneath plenty irish people these days. they don't earn enough to pay tax, so stop attacking them. There is no obligation to tip and thats how it should be. when you get pleasant service and they go beyond taking an order and putting a plate in front of you, then tip. And, as another posted - if you never tip, never expect anything out of the ordinary.


 
Nobody has attacked waiting staff, many jobs are thankless so that doesn't make them any more deserving of tips than anyone else. should you also tip people at the deli counter? I always tip min 10% but that is purely from habit and my inability to look stingy (sad but true) but i will definitely be reassessing this habit as for one thing dining out has become a rare occurance and another thing is out of the ordinary service is not what I'm after, it is good food, polite service, and nice atmosphere. I don't see why I should pay a tip because the waiting staff have achieved their job description.


----------



## Caveat (27 Mar 2009)

I agree MrMan.

I usually tip (about 10%) but sometimes don't. The food and service have to be above average to get a tip from me and if it's below average someone will get an earfull.  

I complain a lot more now than I did, say 5 or 10 years ago -  and I mean valid complaints. I have left without paying on a few occasions due to poor food/service or when asked if I enjoyed my meal (when I didn't, particularly) I will tell them "not really" or equivalent.

I don't know why I haven't always had this attitude - I guess I'm getting less self-conscious as I get older.  I highly recommend complaining - it's very cathartic.

There's a way to do it too - just be matter of fact and polite and say it all with a smile - Irish people are generally bad at complaining IMO as they seem to either say nothing and silently seethe or else simply explode.

But that's another thread in itself


----------



## meatmonger (27 Mar 2009)

MrMan said:


> Nobody has attacked waiting staff, many jobs are thankless so that doesn't make them any more deserving of tips than anyone else.


 

the issue of "tax - free" and "i don't tip the bus driver" is an attack on many hard working and low-paid/thanked restaurant waiting staff.

if its not, then what is the relevance?

simply choose to go to places with nice friendly staff, and tip them accordingly when they do a good job, especially when over and above what they are supposed to do.


----------



## mathepac (27 Mar 2009)

Caveat said:


> ... The food and service have to be above average to get a tip from me and if it's below average someone will get an earfull. ... I have left without paying on a few occasions due to poor food/service or when asked if I enjoyed my meal (when I didn't, particularly) I will tell them "not really" or equivalent ...


Precisely.

If I want better than average, I'll stay at home, cook for myself and serve myself,  because I'm smarter (and bigger) than your average bear.



meatmonger said:


> the issue of "tax - free" and "i don't tip the bus driver" is an attack on many hard working and low-paid/thanked restaurant waiting staff.
> 
> if its not, then what is the relevance?
> 
> simply choose to go to places with nice friendly staff, and tip them accordingly when they do a good job, especially when over and above what they are supposed to do.


That's a right load of twaddle.

I don't tip checkout staff in supermarkets, I don't tip the newsagent who sells me my Irish Times and lottery ticket on Saturday mornings or the cashier who takes the money for my fuel fill, coffee and bagel on Sunday, the receptionist in the doctor's office, the ESB meter-reader or the guys who collect the bins. I don't tip airline pilots, ground or cabin staff, ships captains, train drivers, traffic cops, fire-fighters, ambulance technicians, lollipop ladies, security staff. librarians or road sweepers

So what is this thing with food and beverage servers that convinces them and their customers that they are worth more than the wages they get paid? 

Vive la France and "service compris" on the menu.


----------



## Caveat (27 Mar 2009)

meatmonger said:


> ...and tip them accordingly when they do a good job, *especially when over and above what they are supposed to do.*



I would say absolutely _*only*_ when over above what they are supposed to do.


----------



## David_Dublin (28 Mar 2009)

mercman said:


> How can you state that service charge is not at the discretion of the customer. One goes to a restaurant for food, not to give tips. I always used to give a tip and in the last fortnight I have stopped. Unless the service is exemplary they can get stuffed. Too many stories of the staff not getting the service charge so I have no hard feelings. If good, leave them cash otherwise and things might improve. Nobody is ever thanked for a tip so they just might remember you next time you go in for leaving nothing. The way things are restaurants should be happy with your custom.


There are plenty of places that say on the menu "a service charge of x% is applied to all..", this is particularly the case where groups of 6 or more are included. In this case the service charge is not at the discretion of the customer. A tip is always at the discretion of the customer.


----------



## Sherman (28 Mar 2009)

meatmonger said:


> the issue of "tax - free" and "i don't tip the bus driver" is an attack on many hard working and low-paid/thanked restaurant waiting staff.
> 
> if its not, then what is the relevance?



I've worked as a waiter in my time.  I've also worked as a kitchen porter in my time. Believe me, that is much, much harder work, often not as well paid as waiting tables, and no tax-free tips.  The belief among waiting staff that they are entitled to tips is what really bugs me, along with their whining about how they need tax-free tips to supplement their wages. What's so wrong with only tipping for very good service i.e. above and beyond what customers are entitled to expect from waiters doing their job competently? In my experience, for waiters in this country to give you merely ordinary service would be a massive step up in their service levels.


----------



## meatmonger (28 Mar 2009)

David_Dublin said:


> There are plenty of places that say on the menu "a service charge of x% is applied to all..", this is particularly the case where groups of 6 or more are included. In this case the service charge is not at the discretion of the customer. A tip is always at the discretion of the customer.


 

by law, even if this is written on the door / menu or anywhere else, you can ask for service charge to be removed at any stage. it is suggestive, not compulsory.  that is a fact of law and your right.  use it.

to simply sever a plate of food in front of someone does not require or deserve a tip.  its a process like flying on a plane, or buying a newspaper in a shop or a bus trip.  If you have special requests / are given extra help in sorting your meal, having wine/water poured for you just at the right time, are having your kids meal that you brought in with you heated up, are being given great recommendations on dishes / wines that you woulkd have missed otherwise, then it stops being just a process (like a KP simply processes dirty pots etc).  At this point the person deserves a tip, they have gone beyonf the process.


----------



## Sherman (28 Mar 2009)

meatmonger said:


> to simply sever a plate of food in front of someone does not require or deserve a tip.  its a process like flying on a plane, or buying a newspaper in a shop or a bus trip.  If you have special requests / are given extra help in sorting your meal, having wine/water poured for you just at the right time, are having your kids meal that you brought in with you heated up, are being given great recommendations on dishes / wines that you woulkd have missed otherwise, then it stops being just a process (like a KP simply processes dirty pots etc).  At this point the person deserves a tip, they have gone beyonf the process.



I agree.


----------



## MandaC (28 Mar 2009)

I also had a bad experience in an award winning seriously expensive restaurant.  I found a huge hair on my main course.   I know these things can happen, but at those prices, it should not have left the kitchen like that.   They apologised, (I was brought into the kitchen and the team of chefs were actually made apologise lined up like naughtly schoolboys), which I also found a bit odd and embarressing, but did not take anything off the bill, which was quite substantial.  I was served my main course when everybody else was long finished and getting their desert and I did not enjoy it and felt I had to wolf it down to "catch up".  I ended up leaving half it.   We were not even offered a complimentary drink.   I was a guest at a Birthday dinner, so did not want to cause a fuss and put a damper on the night for everybody else.


----------



## David_Dublin (28 Mar 2009)

mercman said:


> How can you state that service charge is not at the discretion of the customer. One goes to a restaurant for food, not to give tips. I always used to give a tip and in the last fortnight I have stopped. Unless the service is exemplary they can get stuffed. Too many stories of the staff not getting the service charge so I have no hard feelings. If good, leave them cash otherwise and things might improve. Nobody is ever thanked for a tip so they just might remember you next time you go in for leaving nothing. The way things are restaurants should be happy with your custom.





meatmonger said:


> by law, even if this is written on the door / menu or anywhere else, you can ask for service charge to be removed at any stage. it is suggestive, not compulsory.  that is a fact of law and your right.  use it.
> 
> to simply sever a plate of food in front of someone does not require or deserve a tip.  its a process like flying on a plane, or buying a newspaper in a shop or a bus trip.  If you have special requests / are given extra help in sorting your meal, having wine/water poured for you just at the right time, are having your kids meal that you brought in with you heated up, are being given great recommendations on dishes / wines that you woulkd have missed otherwise, then it stops being just a process (like a KP simply processes dirty pots etc).  At this point the person deserves a tip, they have gone beyonf the process.


that does not sound right to me. it is a % charge for service on the bill amount, i dont know how that can be discretionary.


----------



## meatmonger (28 Mar 2009)

David_Dublin said:


> that does not sound right to me. it is a % charge for service on the bill amount, i dont know how that can be discretionary.


 
"I am not happy with the service because of x,y,z, please remove the service charge"

does that sound more discretionary for you?  Its your right to have it removed.


----------



## meatmonger (28 Mar 2009)

MandaC said:


> I found a huge hair on my main course.
> 
> They apologised.
> 
> I was served my main course when everybody else was long finished and getting their desert and I did not enjoy it and felt I had to wolf it down to "catch up". I ended up leaving half it


 
Does that mean they took the meal away, you agreed they would cook it again, and they did?


----------



## mercman (28 Mar 2009)

meatmonger said:


> Does that mean they took the meal away, you agreed they would cook it again, and they did?



Did anyone ever hear of the 'Cottage Cheese Treatment' ??? I would never ever send food back to be recooked or accept an alternative. Best way of voting for a restaurant is never return.


----------



## Dublinchick (28 Mar 2009)

I'm afraid to ask, but what is 'cottage cheese treatment'?


----------



## MandaC (29 Mar 2009)

meatmonger said:


> Does that mean they took the meal away, you agreed they would cook it again, and they did?



I did not agree to anything.   My appetite was gone after the hair.  I did not even order desert.  As I said, I was a guest at somebody's Birthday party and rather than rock the boat for the person and on the night, I kept a low profile and made the decision to play this one down, which is totally unlike me.  Have not returned to that Restaurant.  I dont feel the price matched the standard.  For me anyway.  Between wine/coffee/the whole shebang, the spend worked out at €150-€180 per head, if not more.  Expensive for a hairy sea bass.  

My point is, like the OP, I felt they did not handle it correctly.  The stance was, same as OP, it wont happen again.    It hasnt because I havent been back. And have no intention of going.  Also, I was not paying the bill, so it would have been rude to interfere at that point.  I did see the bill afterwards and the charge was made.

I accept mistakes happen.  Kitchens have off days.  However, if you are spending €200 per person, it is not enough to say, sorry about that, it wont happen again. Agree with Mercman, vote with your feet.


----------



## Smashbox (29 Mar 2009)

Dublinchick said:


> I'm afraid to ask, but what is 'cottage cheese treatment'?


 
Exactly what you are thinking. I have heard horror stories of extra 'added' ingredients.


----------



## MandaC (29 Mar 2009)

No, in fairness, there was no such thing here as Cottage Cheese treatment.  The second main was fine.  The thought of the hairy sea bass had turned my stomach (temporarily) I might add.  Food is their business and they should have realised that.  My complaint is about how it was handled.  Being whisked into the kitchen to scold a team of chefs was downright weird.  Places that charge at that level should know how to deal with situations like this.   

For a Michelin Starred Restaurant, it was a major mistake.    Not good enough to say next time it will be better.


----------



## mercman (29 Mar 2009)

Smashbox said:


> Exactly what you are thinking. I have heard horror stories of extra 'added' ingredients.



And me too from somebody that was working in a kitchen when the Cottage Cheese treatment was provided. If you could think of the most disgusting things that could be done, well it happens If you knew what happens in kitchens you would never eat out again. And before this whole thing gets stuffed down my throat, it happens and let no one tell me not here or there or this or that.

It is very simple, if you purchased an article and it was broken, damaged etc, you would simply bring it back and ask for a refund or exchange. Restaurants feel they are above the law and the more expensive they are the least response or customer satisfaction they will offer. It's your money and don't forget that.


----------



## Smashbox (29 Mar 2009)

mercman said:


> And before this whole thing gets stuffed down my throat, it happens and let no one tell me not here or there or this or that.


 
I agree


----------



## meatmonger (29 Mar 2009)

mercman said:


> If you knew what happens in kitchens you would never eat out again.


 
they are all members of a middle eastern terrorist organisation as well.  chefing is just tying them over until the jihad.

PS.  to above post.  if a kitchen goes off and makes you another dish, you must have agreed to it.  if that has been presented perfectly, you must pay.  lining up the terrorsits to apologise is fairly mental.  indeed vote with feet. and name and shame


----------



## David_Dublin (29 Mar 2009)

meatmonger said:


> "I am not happy with the service because of x,y,z, please remove the service charge"
> 
> does that sound more discretionary for you?  Its your right to have it removed.


You have reliably informed that in law it is your right to have a service charge removed. I just said that it did not sound right to me. If the menu states that there is a service charge applied of x% to the bill, then it sounds to me like some sort of legal contract. Are you a solicitor/barrister? Are you sure about this?


----------



## meatmonger (29 Mar 2009)

David_Dublin said:


> You have reliably informed that in law it is your right to have a service charge removed. I just said that it did not sound right to me. If the menu states that there is a service charge applied of x% to the bill, then it sounds to me like some sort of legal contract. Are you a solicitor/barrister? Are you sure about this?


 
i work in this area. i am sure.


----------



## meatmonger (30 Mar 2009)

MandaC said:


> My complaint is about how it was handled. Being whisked into the kitchen to scold a team of chefs was downright weird. Places that charge at that level should know how to deal with situations like this.
> 
> For a Michelin Starred Restaurant, it was a major mistake. Not good enough to say next time it will be better.


 
I think for this story to have any credibility you need to name the restaurant.  So name the michelin star restaurant that lines its chefs up to be told off.

after all they charged you 180 euro, so....


----------



## bond-007 (30 Mar 2009)

Tipping should be discretionary. If the service is bad I don't tip or I will leave a 1 cent coin as a protest. I would certainly not want to patronise an establishment that adds on what they consider to be an appropriate tip regardless.

Vote with your feet.


----------



## David_Dublin (30 Mar 2009)

bond-007 said:


> Tipping should be discretionary. If the service is bad I don't tip or I will leave a 1 cent coin as a protest. I would certainly not want to patronise an establishment that adds on what they consider to be an appropriate tip regardless.
> 
> Vote with your feet.


Tipping is discretionary. A service charge is not a tip.


----------



## bond-007 (30 Mar 2009)

What is the difference?


----------



## David_Dublin (30 Mar 2009)

A service charge is a set amount outlined on the menu, it is a % amount applied to the total value of the bill and appears on the bill and contributes to the total of the bill. 

The customer does not decide what the rate is. Meatmonger would have us believe that the customer is entitled to have it removed if they so wish, ie effectively that whether you pay it or not is discretionary.

A tip is the amount you decide to pay. It is entirely discretionary, and the amount you tip is discretionary too.


----------



## bond-007 (30 Mar 2009)

What does this service charge cover? Who benefits from it?


----------



## David_Dublin (30 Mar 2009)

Ur guess as good as mine. In theory it should benefit the people who server you I suppose, same way as the tip. But perhaps it is shared more equitably than tips seem to be, including KPs and other behind the scenes people.


----------



## meatmonger (30 Mar 2009)

bond-007 said:


> What does this service charge cover? Who benefits from it?


 
a) vote with feet and don't go to places that charge service. personally i don't belive in it.  but i do know tipping is poor in general.

b) service charge is only "suggestive", by it is not compulsory like i said earlier in this thread.  but "I Guess" it covers the promise of a restaurant (that adds service charges) to go beyond the process of serving (like i desribed in detail in earlier posting).  If they do not pamper and suggest things and do all the things they promise to do, or if you are not happy for a good reason, then ask for it to be removed. simple.

c) Who Benefits?
Hopefully the staff, but unfort not always.  There is no law for a restaurant to have to distribute these charges to staff.  in fact, by law, service carge can be used as part of minimum wage payments.  this is a real shame in my view.  These service charges are then taxable, because the restaurant manages them.

If the staff pool together tips that are not part of a service charge, these are not taxable, and in theory they split as they see fit (and may or may not include the chefs/kps) but there is no guarantee that even these staff get all these tips, so the rule is ask - (do staff get tips?) if answer is no, consider tipping at all.

most decent and long term restaurants distribute all tips to their staff.
i don't believe in general all the service charges are distributed to staff.
best to ask.

you can even have the service charge removed and leave the"tip" in cash


----------



## bond-007 (30 Mar 2009)

> you can even have the service charge removed and leave the"tip" in cash


That is something those places are very reluctant to do?


----------



## meatmonger (30 Mar 2009)

bond-007 said:


> That is something those places are very reluctant to do?


 
its my belief that once you enter a restaurant that adds service they must deliever well above the normal standard service.  if this is not achieved, then you have the right to take it away.

i agree they would be reluctant to swop service charge for tip. but if you establish that the service charge is not going to staf, its an option.  personally i just wouldn't go back.


----------



## bond-007 (30 Mar 2009)

> personally i just wouldn't go back.


I would do the same. That is the only way to show those places.


----------



## mcaul (31 Mar 2009)

Couple of points on this.

Service charge is discretionery if you feel you have not received the level of service you expect from an establishment. 

Average tip of 3% is correct technically but it includes all sit in restaurant meals - I don't tip in mc donalds.  

A european court case approx 5 years ago gave an answer to bad restaurant meals. To cut the story short the court decided that the diner had to pay for the drinks & the raw material cost of the food & the utilities used. - Basically cost of drinks + 25% of menu cost.

If I have messing time, I'll try & find a link to it - was very interesting at the time.


----------



## meatmonger (31 Mar 2009)

mcaul said:


> Couple of points on this.
> 
> Average tip of 3% is correct technically but it includes all sit in restaurant meals - I don't tip in mc donalds.
> 
> ...


 
average of 3% was study of sit down irish restaurants by BDO Simpson.
not fast food outlets.

would like to see link


----------



## Sherman (31 Mar 2009)

Maybe the service given in Irish restaurants only merits a tip 3% of the time?


----------



## bond-007 (31 Mar 2009)

Very true. I am typically underwhelmed by the service in most Irish restaurants.


----------



## meatmonger (31 Mar 2009)

i agree with that.  merits on average only 3%

but even when service is very good / excellent, i see people leaving no / little tip and i feel embarassed.


----------



## Mel (31 Mar 2009)

I always thought a service charge for large groups was to compensate for the inconvenience of timing service for the large number. Which still makes little sense; if the restaurant is full then they are serving large numbers anyway, what difference who is at which table?  


meatmonger said:


> c) Who Benefits?
> Hopefully the staff, but unfort not always. There is no law for a restaurant to have to distribute these charges to staff. in fact, by law, service carge can be used as part of minimum wage payments. this is a real shame in my view. These service charges are then taxable, because the restaurant manages them.
> 
> If the staff pool together tips that are not part of a service charge, these are not taxable, and in theory they split as they see fit (and may or may not include the chefs/kps) but there is no guarantee that even these staff get all these tips, so the rule is ask - (do staff get tips?) if answer is no, consider tipping at all.
> ...


 
In my waitressing days, only cash tips were distributed - anything added to a cheque or credit/debit card went straight into the owner's pocket.


----------



## shaking (3 Apr 2009)

I received a resonse to my last letter to the restaurant concerned; their way of apologising seems to be to call me a liar and tell me to come back any time.  They said the gent beside us was Finnish and he didn't say his food was fine he said it was fin which " is high praise indeed in any Scandanavian language".  Seems strange to me that when he was asked about his meal and said it was fine, the manager said just fine? to which the response was yes just fine - doesn't sound like praise in any language to me.

Anyway I've sent off a last and final letter suggesting they look at their manager more closely if he won't even admit there were issues that night.  As for me I'll never darken their doorstep again but I'm sure that won't bother them!


----------



## mercman (3 Apr 2009)

And if it was that bad why not tell us where this eaterie is ??


----------



## NicolaM (3 Apr 2009)

I have had a similar dreadful experience in a well known very expensive restaurant in Dublin.
We were not offered a pre-theatre menu, even though it was available (we found out subsequently)
The waiter ignored my complaints (during, not after the meal), responding with a "hmmmm, that's the way it's  supposed to be served, " and nothing further, when the dish had quite obviously been incorrectly seasoned.

My main course arrived without half it's  ingredients, which then arrived towards the very end of my meal.

The staff were completely unapologetic, and I certainly will not go back to them again.
It is interesting behaviour in recessionary times, and bad for business.

I  put a review of the bad service up on menupages.ie.
I wonder if it has been removed!!

Nicola


----------



## David_Dublin (3 Apr 2009)

Why on earth are you protecting them, u should name them


----------



## meatmonger (3 Apr 2009)

these complaint stories have zero credibility unless the restaurants are actually named and shamed on this site.


----------



## David_Dublin (3 Apr 2009)

I know. And we're several days into this palaver!!


----------



## Caveat (3 Apr 2009)

AFAIK naming and shaming is generally not encouraged on this site, whatever the scenario.

In certain circumstances it might be permitted, but I would tread carefully.

_Shaking_, I would suggest sending a PM to one of the mods before you name anyone here.


----------



## meatmonger (3 Apr 2009)

I see jim langan, aer lingus, esb, ntl, vodafone, ryanair and everyone else named.

why on earth would you be worried anout naming a restaurant?

why is it different?

if so, close the thread.


----------



## Caveat (3 Apr 2009)

There may be a difference if something is a matter of fact/record.

I dunno - just trying to save the OP and AAM some potential hassle.

I'm personally not worried about anything - nothing to do with me.

I can't close the thread either (if you were talking to me there)


----------



## Padraigb (3 Apr 2009)

Caveat said:


> There may be a difference if something is a matter of fact/record...



It's not my call, either, but I think that is a sensible position. There is a qualitative difference between "I paid €300 and they never delivered my goods" and "I paid €300 and didn't like the food".


----------



## Leo (6 Apr 2009)

meatmonger said:


> why on earth would you be worried anout naming a restaurant?


 
In a word, defamation. So please do not name the restaurant or speculate as to which one it is.
Leo


----------



## meatmonger (6 Apr 2009)

so you can't have a complaint about a particular restaurant on this board?

thats me outta here

RIP


----------



## David_Dublin (6 Apr 2009)

effectively no reviews allowed too, that's a bit sad

i wont be contributing to any of these types of threads then

does that mean that if we find issue with a product of any kind that we cant post, we can only be shiny happy people posting positive things about products and services?

i think moderators need to understand defamation a little better than this


----------



## S.L.F (6 Apr 2009)

David_Dublin said:


> effectively no reviews allowed too, that's a bit sad
> 
> i wont be contributing to any of these types of threads then
> 
> ...


 
The problem comes with a man being good at his job is reasonably priced he gets work on a regular basis from various customers.

Now you have one of his competitors is useless at his job constantly over charges and does bad work.

Then the bad guy gets onto a board and starts telling lies other the good guy, now if someone started that nonsense with me I'd get straight onto my brief and start down the legal route.

For practically all posters on this site there is no comeback you post what you want say what you want to say and nothing will come back to haunt you, but this is Brendans site and the buck stops with him so when people start legal stuff its Brendan's house is on the line.

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showpost.php?p=342543&postcount=1


----------



## David_Dublin (6 Apr 2009)

There are countless sites on the internet that host contributor reviews of products & services as experienced by the contributor. I wonder how they avoid the dafamatory laws. I think the answer is in the understanding of what is defamatory, rather than applying rules where someone can only post nice things about specific products and services.


----------



## S.L.F (6 Apr 2009)

David_Dublin said:


> There are countless sites on the internet that host contributor reviews of products & services as experienced by the contributor. I wonder how they avoid the dafamatory laws. I think the answer is in the understanding of what is defamatory, rather than applying rules where someone can only post nice things about specific products and services.


 
That is true but some of those sites are hosted in the States to avoid any legal problems that might arise.

The big thing is if someone is going to be giving out about a restaurant, a business or an individual it would be nice to have their names and where they live.

Name the business then they should name themselves.


----------



## David_Dublin (6 Apr 2009)

S.L.F said:


> That is true but some of those sites are hosted in the States to avoid any legal problems that might arise.
> 
> The big thing is if someone is going to be giving out about a restaurant, a business or an individual it would be nice to have their names and where they live.
> 
> Name the business then they should name themselves.



That makes sense alright.


----------



## shaking (6 Apr 2009)

I totally see where you coming from S.L.F however I think it's a bit much to ask someone to name the place they're complaining about, this restaurant in my case, and then put their contact details in. God only knows who I'd have contacting me.


----------



## David_Dublin (6 Apr 2009)

I think the point is that the website owner has their details, not that they are public


----------



## S.L.F (6 Apr 2009)

shaking said:


> I totally see where you coming from S.L.F however I think it's a bit much to ask someone to name the place they're complaining about, this restaurant in my case, and then put their contact details in. God only knows who I'd have contacting me.


 
If it's the restaurants legal team asking for your solicitors address then you'd best leave the country.

This came up before a girl had a problem with a car she bought she said in a post that anybody who wanted to know the name of the dealership could PM her and she would tell them the name.

I'm not saying you should do this but this is how it was dealt with before.


----------



## S.L.F (6 Apr 2009)

David_Dublin said:


> I think the point is that the website owner has their details, not that they are public


 
Yes but again what details does Brendan have on 99.99% of people here all he has is an e-mail address that could be anywhere on this earth.

I think these last few posts should be moved to a different forum


----------

