# RTE People In Need Telethon - Why?



## rainyday (22 May 2004)

Cuchaillain posted in ;


> It was from Crumlin childrens hospital looking for €5 per month to build a new wing and new outpatient department. [...] But I do think the Government should be building the new wing etc and maybe us greatful parents helping to kit it out


Which brings me nicely to tonight's rant - the [broken link removed]. I fear I'm turning into Victor Meldrew, but this just turns my stomach.

Look at the board members;


> Bill Attley, Moya Doherty, Clare Duignan, Liam Farrell, David Harvey (Chairman), Margaret Heffernan, John Hogan, Angela Holohan, Pat Kinsley, Christy Maye, Ger O'Mahoney, Josephine Nolan, Willie O'Reilly, Gerry O'Sullivan, Fran Rooney, Des Whelan


I don't know all of these heads, but I do know that if they were genuinely concerned about helping out charities, Moya & Margaret could drop €4 million each into the hat without noticing any significant difference on their net worth, which would exceed the entire amount collected on the last telethon. If Margaret wanted to do something about poverty, maybe she would consider paying her shop girls in Dunnes an extra 50c per hour and risk taking home just a few less million herself this year. But no, they prefer to stick a pile of 2nd rate celebs on RTE chasing €20 donations from school kids & office workers with guilt-tripping coverage of the elderly and the disabled. Why the hell should the elderly & the disabled be dependent on charitable handouts for their care? 

If we, as a society, want to demonstrate any serious commitment towards caring for those in such difficult situations, then we need the state to fund these services as a matter of right, not a 'gift' handed down from Margaret Heffernan. Any here's the bad news people - If you are really concerned about these services, you are going to have to pay more tax to fund these services. I'm genuinely not trying to score a political point here - I'm just amazed that so many people are prepared to salve their conscience by dressing up in drag & collecting a few hundred quid for 'charadeee', but the idea of using your vote to change the system seems to be out of the question.


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## rainyday (22 May 2004)

Spacer replied;

"If you are really concerned about these services, you are going to have to pay more tax to fund these services."

I think the problem is that we already are - it's just that the money isn't going to the right places.

The 50 million spent on the electronic votig machines is a case in point. This amount would have made a right dent in the cost of a new wing in Crumlin Hospital, but instead it's gone to into someone's hip pocket and isn't coming back. 

This would be bad enough if it was an isolated incident, but it isn't. There are hundreds of smaller instances of such waste going on day after day which go to make up multiples of the 50 million wasted on this occasion.


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## Natchessmen (22 May 2004)

Rainy,

I have to agree, this is a throw-back to the Victorian Patronage system, where it was acceptable to run a sweatshop, mine or mill so long as you made some ostentatious contributions they'd name a road after you.  I'm not convinced that more tax is necessarily the answer (but accept it may be) The department of Health's budget has increased significantly over the last decade and the service has improved, but sadly not to the same degree.  

wrt to e-voting, assuming it is correctly validated and operational will it not save a sack-full of money in avoiding (double) paying folks to count the votes.  Any vote counters out there? What is the rate of pay? For how long? And what would you otherwise be doing?  are you getting paid anyway for your day job?


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## rainyday (22 May 2004)

> wrt to e-voting, assuming it is correctly validated and operational will it not save a sack-full of money in avoiding (double) paying folks to count the votes.


Don't want to drag thread off topic, but NO - the proposed eVoting system would NOT have saved man-power. Each voting machine requires a dedicated 'control operator' to sit beside the machine and enable it for each voter. 7,000 machines = 7,000 man-days. My estimate of 42 count centres x 50 counters x 2 days average comes to 4200 man-days. So the new, expensive system requires MORE man-power to run than the old system.


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## Natchessmen (22 May 2004)

Fair enough. *completely mad* but I accept what you are saying  now back the the programme.


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## rainyday (22 May 2004)

Yep - back to the main topic. The more I think about this, the more annoyed I get. [Isn't David Harvey (he of Crimeline fame) a fairly prominent FF member/supporter? I seem to recall him having a key role in running their Ard Fheis some time back]

The latest [broken link removed] is very light on detail about how the trust works, how many people are employed, what the admin costs are. It is slightly worrying that while the annual report claims that "grants are available for capital purposes only rather than the normal running costs of organisations", their [broken link removed] states "The Tallaght Travellers' Youth Service in Dublin received a grant from People in Need in 2000 that was *used to help with the running costs* of a homework club in the Traveller Centre in Ballycragh halting site" - makes it hard to really trust these people.

The point about 'we don't get value from public services' (whether you agree with it or not) is not relevant here. Many of the services being supported here also get state/health board funding, so there is no reason to think that we are getting better value from People in Need funding.

And the €8m raised in the last telethon is just a drop in the ocean in terms of what is required to bring our very basic services to the most needy in our society up to scratch.

This makes me mad. :mad


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## Bridget (22 May 2004)

*charities allow govt. to get away with it*

totally in agreement here.

But what's the way around it, bar telling the politicos off when they call?   Stop giving to charity altogether to force the govermants hand?  

It's like the 'voluntary contribution' to schools.  The middle-class are schools get more and more, while the schools in the poorer areas get more and more rund down.  totally unfair.


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## rainyday (23 May 2004)

*Re: charities allow govt. to get away with it*



> But what's the way around it, bar telling the politicos off when they call?


Vote for change. And I'm not just banging my Labour drum here. I'd rather see people voting PD's to privatise all hospitals (if that what they think will solve our health service problems), instead of throwing 20 euro in a bucket to salve their conscience.


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## daltonr (24 May 2004)

*Re: charities allow govt. to get away with it*

Rainyday,

I mean this sincerely, I hope Labour get in at the next general election.  I'll vote for them, and I'll give them a few years and then I'm coming on here to point out that we didn't get the change we voted for.  I know now we won't get that change.

Labour have been in government before.  You're old enough to remember.  We had Telethon's back then too.  We had bad value for public money, we had underfunded health services, and education, etc, etc, etc.

I've gotten off the Political Merry Go Round, I've realised I wasted my time by getting involved with FF and I wasted years inside it trying to achieve something.

Labour will get in, and then they'll engage in all the chicanery they can to stay in, and doing some good will play second fiddle as it always does.  At what point will you join me on the solid ground of reality?

-Rd


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## rainyday (24 May 2004)

*Re: charities allow govt. to get away with it*

Hi RD - I'm not claiming to have a magic wand to wipe away these issues with one fell swoop. I'm not saying it would be easy.

However, remember that Labour have only been in Govt as a minority partner, which clearly restricts their scope, power & authority. All Governments in yours & my lifetime have been led by FF or FG. My core point is that if people are REALLY concerned about the health service, they should NOT be throwing 20 euro in a People in Need bucket, they should be voting DIFFERENTLY TO THE WAY THEY VOTED LAST TIME to bring about some true institutional change.

So have you anything positive to suggest?


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## daltonr (25 May 2004)

*Re: charities allow govt. to get away with it*



> So have you anything positive to suggest?



Absolutely.  If you see a problem, put your effort into fixing it, not into getting people elected.  If all the foot soldiers that are littering our country with posters and leaflets were out volunteering with charities and community groups or handing out blankets and food, or even picking up litter instead of spreading it the country would be transformed almost overnight.

At least the people who volunteered for People in Need, and those who do other volunteer work are doing something useful.  Succesive governments have been derelict in their duties, and rather than waste time trying to elect a different set of wasters, they've decided to deal with the problems of the country themselves.  I salute them for that.

If you live in Dublin and care about homelesness, don't waste your time voting for people who say they care about the issue.  Just deal with the issue.  

Go out the next night it rains, find a homeless person, there's pleanty of them, and book them into a B&B.  Just do it once a year, perhaps on your birthday.  It was my Birthday last week and I'll be doing this the next night it rains.   

A while back I saw a guy sleeping in literally a flowing torrent of water just off Grafton St.   He didn't have time for elected Ireland to decide that he was more important than Equestrian Centers and Light Rail.  He needed help there and then.   McDonalds and a B&B was the best I could do for him.  I found out months later from another guy on the street that he was after going down hill a lot.   I've not been able to find him since.

Alternatively volunteer with some of the groups that actually assist people who really need help.  Yes donate some money next time a hospital or school runs a fund raiser, or better still organise a fund raiser yourself.  If you find it easier to donate time than money then that's useful too.

I'm not going to stop voting.  But I have stopped believing that voting will help people.  I've switched my efforts to volunteer and advocacy groups, rather than political parties.



> My core point is that if people are REALLY concerned about the health service, they should NOT be throwing 20 euro in a People in Need bucket, they should be voting DIFFERENTLY TO THE WAY THEY VOTED LAST TIME to bring about some true institutional change.



I'm sorry but I disagree.  This government can't be accused of not spending enough on Health.  Electing this government radically changed the amount being spent on health and things have improved somewhat, but if FG or Labour had been in power they would have done the same, no better, possibly a little worse.   Who's in power makes negligable difference.

Are Labour still touting compulsory Health Insurance?, if so, then they lose my vote when it comes to health.

If you see wrong, fix it, don't waste your energy electing someone else in the hopes that they might fix it.

If you have energy to spare give it to charitable organisations, not political parties.

I couldn't live with the shame if I devoted my effort to hanging up posters and handing out leaflets that people throw away without reading.   Think of the good I could have been doing!!!!

Is that positive enough?

For the record I did once organize a fundraiser for a currently sitting TD, and despite being in FF I still think he's a good guy.  He got bitch-slapped by Bertie for bad mouthing the party, so he must be doing something right.

-Rd


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## Bridget (25 May 2004)

*homelessness*

I'm sorry RD, I think that is the American way - rely on people to volunteer.  But at least they do have a healthy tradition of volunteering.  Homelessness is not going to be solved by booking someone sleeping rough into a B&B once a year, no matter how much better it makes you feel.

Problems like health system, education, homelessness need a systemic approach - and only the government can provice that.

I begin to think that one of the problems with Ireland is that we only ever seem to look to the US or the UK for their experience or solutions.  Why not look at Germany (compulsory health insurance seems to work there), or Scandanavia, or Kerala, or anywhere else?


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## XXXAnother PersonXXX (25 May 2004)

*.*



> Homelessness is not going to be solved by booking someone sleeping rough into a B&B once a year, no matter how much better it makes you feel.



If everyone did this, of course it would solve homelessness. Do the maths. Even if there were 1000 homeless people, you'd only need 365000 people booking them into B&Bs per year to solve the homeless problem.

Every bit helps.


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## rainyday (25 May 2004)

*Re: .*

Volunteering treats the symptoms, not the cause of the disease.


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## daltonr (25 May 2004)

*Re: .*

Rainyday



> Volunteering treats the symptoms, not the cause of the disease.<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>
> 
> I'm sure you're aware of pleanty of diseases for which we have no cure.  The best we can do is treat the sumptoms until a cure is discovered.
> 
> ...


<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->


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## Bridget (25 May 2004)

*homelessness & B&Bs*

XXXAnotherPersonXXX,
from the Focus Ireland website ([broken link removed]
____________________________________________________
There are currently 48,413 households on the housing waiting lists nationally and 5,581 people who are homeless. (According to the Housing Act definition)
_____________________________

This means you'd need 5581 X 365 = 2,037,065 people celebrating their birthdays by putting one person into a B&B.  Personally, if I were homeless, I wuldn't be too impressed , even if I did manage to  hang around the streets and find a birthday person each day.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
However, Focus Ireland includes three categories in their definition of homeless (O'Sullivan, 1996):

*&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Visible Homeless: those sleeping rough and/or those accommodated in emergency shelters or Bed and Breakfasts

*&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Hidden Homeless: those families or individuals involuntarily sharing with family and friends, those in insecure accommodation or those living in housing that is woefully inadequate or sub-standard

*&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp At risk of Homelessness: those who currently have housing but are likely to become homeless due to economic difficulties, too high a rent burden, insecure tenure or health difficulties.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So me and my 2 kids are staying with my mother, along with my two brothers and their wives and kids and it's only a small house and we're all being driven nuts, but none of us can afford a house, and the council waiting list is too long, my husband is a junkie/drunk/irresponsible git and contributes nothing.  So a night's holiday in a B&B is going to be a great solution. Yeah right.

The only solution is to BUILD LOTS MORE HOUSES!!!  Build low rise estates, make them affordable, good social mix, provide community facilities and transport, and bob's your uncle.  Can't understand why the government doesn't do this.  Could it be too simple?  (or are they waiting for us all to start emigrating again?....I do wonder.....)


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## Max Hopper (25 May 2004)

Bridget, I resent your assertion that my tax monies should give you a home. I cannot afford one at the moment, so why should I pay for yours before I pay for mine?


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## Max Hopper (25 May 2004)

> From our Labourite contributor, rainyday - -----------------------​*"Charity begins at home, not with a home."<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->               -Mam*


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## daltonr (25 May 2004)

My suggesting was not an attempt at a comprehensive plan to tackle homelessness.

BUT... by doing something for even that one person I did more good than spending 5 weeks hanging up posters and littering the country with leaflets that noone reads.
(In my opinion, others are entitled to theirs).

I didn't say that it would solve the problem.  I just that people who volunteer and actually do something are doing more good than the people who work to get their party elected in the vain hope that their party can solve these issues.

Rainyday has admitted that Labour as the Junior party is not going to cut the mustard, apparently they need to lead the government.  And if they fail then?  what will the excuse be??   They need an overall majority perhaps????

It's bunkum.  THe best government of the last 30 years was good because it HAD TO BE.  It was a FF government and it didn't even have a majority.   When you remove choice your remove governments ability to screw up.  And you get good government.



> So a night's holiday in a B&B is going to be a great solution. Yeah right.



If you're sleeping on the street and you're wet and cold, you don't have a long term plan, you only care about tonight.  So, someone checking you into a B&B, or giving you money for a hostel actually is solving your problem.

And it's no holiday.  You sarcasm is worrying, but it's probably typical, and you're just the kind of person the political parties pander to to get votes.

-Rd


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## Bridget (26 May 2004)

*good grief*

--------------
Bridget, I resent your assertion that my tax monies should give you a home. I cannot afford one at the moment, so why should I pay for yours before I pay for mine?
--------------

If there was a building programme for the whole population of Ireland, houses would be a lot cheaper to buy (demand & supply - though of course mansions in Dalkey would always command a premium); and those who can't/won't buy could rent them at fairly reasonable rates.  I don't think the Corpo rents are peppercorn.

I don't own a home yet either.....have been saving for years, but prices increase faster than my income!    :mad


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## rainyday (26 May 2004)

*Re: good grief*

Hi RD - Your solution is no solution. I'm not sure if you really were serious about proposing this as a solution to our social care problems.

You can't have well-intentioned amateurs mucking about to try to solve the many problems in our social care system. Do you expect untrained people to pop in to care for an Alzheimers patient or a severely handicapped child or a drug addict going cold turkey? Even with the best of attentions, attempts by volunteers to help out in such cases without adequete direction/control/supervision could be extremely dangerous. And these people deserve better than being dependent on charity from volunteers - they deserve an entitlement to a minimum level of service to be provided by the state.

It's artificial to pose a choice between political activity and volunteering. From my experience, those people who are politically active also tend to be those who are active in their communities in a range of volunteer roles. And of course, if the 'good guys' simply opt-out of political activity, that leaves the playing field clear for the 'bad guys' to take/keep control.

Yes, I sometimes get frustrated with the political system. Maybe for the next election I'll try harder to push my proposal for a no-postering pact or law. But I still haven't seen any sensible alternative to the current system.


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## Max Hopper (26 May 2004)

> If there was a building programme for the whole population of Ireland, houses would be a lot cheaper to buy...


So housing is a responsibility of the state? Like roads and policing service? Honestly, that is an absurd proposal. This is what happens when the "gummit" gets involved in homebuilding -<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->Ballymun


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## MaximumBoner (26 May 2004)

*ballymun*

More absurdity.

Ballymun is not the only council housing project in Dublin.
There's a lot of decent (council) houses out there. Some people cannot or will not be able to afford decent housing. It's only right that the state provide for them.


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## Bridget (26 May 2004)

*housing*

MaxHopper

if roads and policing are public services, why shouldn't housing be too?  Like health, sanitation, education?

More housing = more supply.  Housing can come in all sorts of categories - luxury, 'normal', affordable, council......   Don't see why a massive building programme wuoldn't bring the overall price down.   Especially for people starting out.


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## legend99 (26 May 2004)

*..*

The original point of this thread, knocking the Telethon and Moya Doherty etc....

Gives me the same feeling as when I see Bono banging on about drop the debt when at their Slane concert the licensed vendors inside the ground were flogging you burgers for about a fiver a go. Combined with the fact that you were stopped from bringing anything at all in so you had to rebuy even plastic bottled soft drinks inside.
Makes me sick to hear him preaching when he has the audacity to be involved in such a blatant rip off.....


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## Max Hopper (26 May 2004)

> There's a lot of decent (council) houses out there.


Really? Care to advise us of a council estate that is not 'down at the heel' and in which *you* would consider living? Face it, the great Socialist experiment of the 20th century failed. Miserably. And yet some will not learn from the past.<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->Private ownership (of anything) nurtures respect for the rule of law. As for the public services, well they are not so great, are they? We abuse the A&E services with injuries resulting from anti-social behaviour, education has over a 50% dropout rate in the first year of third level, council estates where you dare not venture into in the daytime, shall I continue? I am for privatisation of third level education, housing, intercity roads, health care, OAP priviledges, and so forth.<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->Consider this, reduce the social beneficence in Ireland, drop the 'effective' tax rate (direct + indirect = 60%+), and then you might have the dosh for a home in a few years.


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## rainyday (26 May 2004)

Ah privatisation - the great panacea of the far-right. One would have to wonder why;

- the privatised power markets in the US have allowed the power suppliers to hold the public to ransom and trebled their prices
- the privatised telephone market in Ireland is still monopolised by Eircom for home phones and duopolised by O2/Vodafone for mobiles
- Thatcher's great efforts at privatising public services in the UK in the 80's were soundly rejected by the UK votes in the 90's and the naughties.

Privatisation is just a cop-out. There is no reason (other than failures of culture, processes & management) why effective public services can't be provided by an effective public service. Privatising such services creates a cat-and-mouse game where the regulators attempt to create metrics to measure the services provided and the providers play the system to meet the metrics without really providing any service at all.


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## OpusnBill (26 May 2004)

*social housing*

Hey Max,

In reply to your posting, I would have to say that most (bar Ballymun and other high rise developments - thanks a million Neil Blaney TD) of the housing provided by the Corpo/public sector are actually finished to a better standard than the private sector equivalents and in the majority of cases they are well looked after by the tenants - in many cases there is a option to buy, which encourages the respect for the rule of law or even civic pride.

In any event I'd be happy enough to live in such a development - in fact I did so for 7 years.  I do accept that there are anti-social elements in some of these developments - Of course there are also anti-social elements in the private housing market as well (My experience is that I found more problems in the private sector, but I accept that this could be an unlucky sample, so it's more reasonable to say that the percentage is more or less the same across sectors. 

Your piece at the end about privatising everything is interesting - almost libertarian in its outlook - would you like to expound on it some more?  Personally, I think this approach would be bonkers, but as we live in a democracy, troll on down bro!  There is such a thing as society as well you know - your approach would end up in civil war within a very short timeframe.  On the plus side shares in proviate security would be well up!

By the way, third level education does not have a 50% drop out level in first year.  Where did you get that from?

Regards,

OpusnBill


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## MaxIdiot (26 May 2004)

*re*

You don't know Dublin very well do you Max?

Plenty of areas in Dublin that have nice council houses that are well looked after.

But, by your definition Dublin (& Ireland) is a kip anyway so I don't suppose it matters much.


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## Max Hopper (26 May 2004)

One by one, we will dissect the following sweeping generalisations.





> <!--EZCODE LIST START--><ul><li>- the privatised power markets in the US have allowed the power suppliers to hold the public to ransom and trebled their prices</li><li>- the privatised telephone market in Ireland is still monopolised by Eircom for home phones and duopolised by O2/Vodafone for mobiles</li><li>- Thatcher's great efforts at privatising public services in the UK in the 80's were soundly rejected by the UK votes in the 90's and the naughties.</li></ul><!--EZCODE LIST END-->


Power markets in the US? California, actually is of what you refer to. And the people of California emasculated capitalism in the 80s by way of a referendum that capped energy prices. No-brainer here then. Private operators simply stopped building generating capacity in order to remain profitable (we all understand *profit*, do we not?) Come the 'energy crunch' of the naughties, someone had to stump-up for the new gear and the shareholders were not up for losing their dividends. Hence the rubberband snapped and prices increased to backfill the gap in capital funding.<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->'last mile syndrome' or the 'access network'. No one to blame here, either. Ireland is an admittedly small place. And like so many low population islands, pays more for most everything. There is no ROI in Eircom. Recall the exhortations of Harney and Kane prior to the first flotation. Did anyone honestly evaluate the profitability of a telcom operating in a confined market? No, the punters were looking at a takeover bid from a British or continental telco. Any imbecile could see that the value of Eircom was in the physical plant. O'Reilly and Soros, did. And now we reap what we have sown. Live small, pay big. There is no incentive (profit, remember that word) for another telcom competitor to invest in Ireland.<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->UK and privatisation. So? Some politicos get the heave-ho. Please identify the strongest economy in Europe (hint: it is the 4th largest in the world).<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->Any more questions?


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## Max Hopper (26 May 2004)

Can't name any, can you? Just as well. You would most likely compromise your integrity by writing that you *would* live there. And I wish not to be responsible for your condemnation to hell for lying.


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## MaxIdiot (26 May 2004)

*re*

Kimmage for starters. I'd live there.
The outskirts of the city centre has plenty of both council owned and ex-council houses. Highly sought after housing. Very good quality too...having been in many of them.
Drimnagh has a lot of council houses too. My mother was brought up there and it has many very nice areas.

That's to name but a few areas.

Yawn...we're getting tired of your constant whining Max.


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## Max Hopper (26 May 2004)

Here ya go, 'herring breath' : [broken link removed]. Non- and late-completing (left and returned) is ca. 50%. But you were busy reading comics instead of working the maths exercises.<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->NB.





> ...both council owned *and ex-council* houses.


And in Kimmage? The public/private ratio would be? Serves to prove the point that private ownship creates a desirable environment.


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## MaxIdiot (26 May 2004)

*re*

>And in Kimmage? The public/private ratio would be? Serves to prove the point that private ownship creates a desirable environment.


But these are *all* ex council houses. 
Serves to prove there is nothing wrong with council housing I think is what you meant to say.

Interesting isn't it how you think Ireland is such a crap place full of begrudgers and people who don't care about each other when you yourself begrudge council housing to the needy.


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## sol (26 May 2004)

*...*

I see we have the second highest retention rate ahead of the US & UK & Germany. Interesting.


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## Max Hopper (26 May 2004)

*Vocabulary check on aisle 7! Aisle 7! Vocabulary check!*<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->[broken link removed]. And I am neither definition.


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## MaxIdiot (26 May 2004)

*re*

Interesting how you pull this vocabulary check out of your bottom whenever you're losing an argument.

Jsut becuse somone spills sumthin wrong doesn mean there argumint isn valad.


But then u r too bissy trollin to notice dat.


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## MaxIdiot (26 May 2004)

*re*

You clearly begrudge other people's happiness


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## Max Hopper (26 May 2004)

Good Sirs, it would be extremely ungentlemanly of me to engage you in a battle of wits as you are unarmed.


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## MaxIdiot (26 May 2004)

*re*

>Good Sirs, it would be extremely ungentlemanly of me to engage you in a battle of wits as you are unarmed.

I feel that your recent full frontal lobotomy might weigh in my favour and I never turn down an easy victory.

Perhaps then you'd rather turn your rather limited attention back to defending your poorly thought out point concerning council housing.


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## icantbelieveitstaken (26 May 2004)

*Re: re*

Unless MaxIdiot is piggy in disguise (assuming a more butch name eh piggy) you should read the thread on "Ireland is sinking" to learn that engaging with MaxHopper is futile at best and brings the thread quickley off topic and into the realm of personal attacks unless "herring breath" is a new complimentary slang.


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## OpusnBill (26 May 2004)

*school drop-outs*

Hey Max,

Er, I did read that Maynooth has the worst drop-out figure in the country of nearly 30% which is above the national average of 20% which is somewhat at variance at the 50% figure you quote.  

Rigggggggggghhhhht.   Can I ask if you speak to Elvis on a regular basis?

Drop out does not equate to late finishers by the way so you are being a little disengenous there..

I can expect a multi-coloured parade now I suppose :rolleyes   


Regards,

OpusnBill

PS Good one about the herring breath and the comic reference - I guess you'd follow the role model of Steve Dallas then....!


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## Max Hopper (26 May 2004)

Oh right! One is easily distracted when the conversation becomes tedious.<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->Council housing it is then. Where will all the funding come from to erect the housing? The contradiction which is Ireland does not provide for tax (VAT) relief for charitable organisations. Today, 42% of the new home price is taxes and fees. I would not expect the government to exempt itself, so housing prices would remain inflated. Back to the 'tax and spend' struggle? Undoubtedly. And where would all the 'champagne Socialists' who bought during the previous score of years be if housing prices 'got real'? Has that inequity been considered? Speaking of backlash and chaos, I submit that the masses would eject the socialist government that torpedoed their property values just as the British did the Thatcherites in the 90s and 00s.


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## OpusnBill (26 May 2004)

*comic aside*

Hi folks,

In case you're interested, my call name is a mix of two cartoon characters in a very popular US strip called Bloom County as is Steve Dallas.

Opus is a penguin, so the herring-breath reference makes sense (well it would if you read the strip!)

I'll waddle off now,

Regards,

OpusnBill


----------



## Max Hopper (26 May 2004)

More of a Milo Bloom type<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->


----------



## MaxIdiot (26 May 2004)

*re*

>Where will all the funding come from to erect the housing?

In case you weren't aware...council houses are being built all over Dublin as we speak.

>And where would all the 'champagne Socialists' who bought during the previous score of years be if housing prices 'got real'?

They are real Max...or do you believe in the bubble bursting too.


----------



## OpusnBill (26 May 2004)

*Comics*

Hi Max,

Cool - where did you get them?

Oh, the memories....!

Regards,

OpusnBill


----------



## Max Hopper (26 May 2004)

> >Where will all the funding come from to erect the housing?
> 
> In case you weren't aware...council houses are being built all over Dublin as we speak.
> 
> ...


Here are your answers, Bridget. Plenty of no- and low-cost housing everywhere. And the price? They are *real*,writes MaxIdiot, so just stop complaining.<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->NB. Opusnbill:


----------



## MaxIdiot (26 May 2004)

*re*

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 >Where will all the funding come from to erect the housing?

In case you weren't aware...council houses are being built all over Dublin as we speak.

>And where would all the 'champagne Socialists' who bought during the previous score of years be if housing prices 'got real'?

They are real Max...or do you believe in the bubble bursting too.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here are your answers, Bridget. Plenty of no- and low-cost housing everywhere. And the price? They are real,writes MaxIdiot, so just stop complaining.








I see you have difficulties differentiating between council houses and private houses max. That's a pity. I'm sure Bridget won't be fooled by your stupid commentary though.


----------



## Max Hopper (26 May 2004)

MaxIdiot:<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->My most sincere apology to the posters. I genuinely thought the fundamental issue was *housing* and that the taxpayers should provide same. The fine nuance of expecting the public to provide houses to give away rather than providing housing was somehow lost on my begrudging self. How embarassing! And of course all the products in Tesco should be given away, too.<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->My hat is off to you for always being fully cognizant of the ramifications to what you are proposing.


----------



## maxidiot (26 May 2004)

*re*

>My most sincere apology to the posters

It's probably about time.

>I genuinely thought the fundamental issue was housing and that the taxpayers should provide same.

It is.


>And of course all the products in Tesco should be given away, too.

I wouldn't have thought so no.

>My hat is off to you for always being fully cognizant of the ramifications to what you are proposing. 

What *am* I proposing Max. Please enlighten me?


----------



## Max Hopper (26 May 2004)

Ohh! No! Not yet! Wait for it. *Wait* for it. It will be so much sweeter!


----------



## MaxIdiot (26 May 2004)

*re*

Did someone just give this kid a lollipop?


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## rainyday (27 May 2004)

Hi Max (or should that be Min)

I think there are some sensible points hidden behind all that bluff & bluster, so let's try & dig them out.



> Power markets in the US? California, actually is of what you refer to. And the people of California emasculated capitalism in the 80s by way of a referendum that capped energy prices. No-brainer here then. Private operators simply stopped building generating capacity in order to remain profitable (we all understand profit, do we not?) Come the 'energy crunch' of the naughties, someone had to stump-up for the new gear and the shareholders were not up for losing their dividends. Hence the rubberband snapped and prices increased to backfill the gap in capital funding.


Lots of imagination used to back up a weak arguement here. The California electricity price cap came in in 1996 (not the 80's - See source and came after almost doubling of prices over the previous 17 years. In fact, there were price increases in 15 out of the previous 17 years. I presume that your capitalist outlook would expect the people of California to continue to hand over piles of their hard-earned to the directors & share-holders to Enron and the other power companies, but fortunately, the California law makers disagreed with you and brought in the cap. I can't find any reference to a referendum to bring in the cap, though the power companies did later buy the result of a referendum aimed to slow deregulatulation - from [broken link removed]



> In what is unarguably the highest price ever paid to buy an election, Southern California Edison, Pacific Gas and Electric and their allies spent $53 million to defeat professor Coyle's proposal to slow deregulation.



And I wasn't just referring to California, as it happens. Failure to regulate the quality of service in the deregulated market was one of the root causes in the recent massive power failure on the east coast. So the great God of capitalism failed the power consumers of the USA.



> 'last mile syndrome' or the 'access network'. No one to blame here, either. Ireland is an admittedly small place. And like so many low population islands, pays more for most everything. There is no ROI in Eircom. Recall the exhortations of Harney and Kane prior to the first flotation. Did anyone honestly evaluate the profitability of a telcom operating in a confined market? No, the punters were looking at a takeover bid from a British or continental telco. Any imbecile could see that the value of Eircom was in the physical plant. O'Reilly and Soros, did. And now we reap what we have sown. Live small, pay big. There is no incentive (profit, remember that word) for another telcom competitor to invest in Ireland.


I just love the 'no one to blame here' line. What do you expect - we just roll over and get screwed again & again while the great god of capitalism continues to transfer wealth from the average worker to O'Reilly/Soros et al? We were told that privatisation & competition would give better service & better prices to the consumer. Well prices keep going up & service keeps going down.


> UK and privatisation. So? Some politicos get the heave-ho. Please identify the strongest economy in Europe (hint: it is the 4th largest in the world).


You've answered the question that wasn't asked. The question that was asked was whether Thatcher's right wing agenda was good for the UK? Maggie divided Britain, North against South & rich against poor. The rich got richer, and the poor got stuck in the fast dwindling supply of council housing without any hope of decent education or jobs.



> Any more questions?


Yep - Are you in favour of school privatisation, where [broken link removed] (and then wonder why we have a growing obesity problem?

Or better still, just give us one example where privatisation of state services has worked to the benefit of the consumer?


----------



## Girth (27 May 2004)

*!!!!!!!!!!!!*

I am truly amazed at the amount of knowledge here on this thread but more astonished by the lack of wisdom.


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## purple (27 May 2004)

I'll say one thing for rainyday, while I might not agree with his politics he does put forward well constructed points (and backs them up most of the time) which is more than can be said for most of the contributors on this thread, (and me on occasion).
I think the point about the telethon is a valid one; the people of Ireland , through their government, should pay for the services needed by the most vulnerable in society. The telethon, if it takes place at all, should be an "as well as2 rather than an"instead of" event.
I agree with many of daltonr's earlier points, before this descended into a slagging match. To do something about a problem is always better than just giving out about it, and God knows we are good at that!


----------



## Max Hopper (27 May 2004)

And the privateer's response -





> The California electricity price cap came in in 1996 (not the 80's - See source and came after almost doubling of prices over the previous 17 years. In fact, there were price increases in 15 out of the previous 17 years.


*I've just washed my hands and simply can't do anything with them!* Mea culpa. Finger-slip. The 90s not 80s. And the legislators of California did not meddle in the energy sector unilaterally. The electorate brought forth numerous referenda on the issue. The 'gummit' simply pandered to the voters (it was not altruistically motivated.) Harkening back to your denunciation of the deregulation/price increase coupling, please explain the operation of ESB. We are facing yet another price rise by a state-controlled, regulated utility. Dearie me! How can that happen? Input costs change. Meteorological factors.<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->The review clearly notes -





> *Cumulative Effects*. By early 2001, California's restructuring plan was seen by virtually all observers as a failure.


But you chose to ignore the fact that in retrospect, regulation did, in fact, cause the problem(s).<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->Please substaniate this claim -





> And I wasn't just referring to California, as it happens. Failure to regulate the quality of service in the deregulated market was one of the root causes in the recent massive power failure on the east coast. So the great God of capitalism failed the power consumers of the USA.


A superior (and redundant) design of interconnect grid cannot be attributed to regulation.





> 'no one to blame here'


Sarcasm, my dears. A self-inflicted injury, 'own goal'. The avarice surrounding the first flotation of Eircom was palpable. I was asked my opinion of the initial flotation by several colleagues. My view remains resolute. The telcom market in Ireland is too small to support privatisation. Do not buy this dog of an issue.





> You've answered the question that wasn't asked.


It was pondered , but then forward-thinking social champions cannot be expected to remember what they said in the past.





> Or better still, just give us one example where privatisation of state services has worked to the benefit of the consumer?


OK. Water supply and wastewater treatment. Leaky pipes repaired *and* maintained. A private operator, faced with massive fines and penalties for carelessness, would not be as cavalier as the 'gummit' over the cock-ups at the 'new' (and still 'quirky') sewage treatment plant in Ringsend.<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->I am in complete agreement with the clauses in the Nice Treaty that provide for the costs of ameliorating the environment to be borne by the contaminator ('polluter pays'.) Privatisation must be accompanied by both potential reward and loss. And for the record, I reject any half-measure towards privatisation. Foisting a state monoply onto some of 'the boys' in the name of capitalism is merely cronyism. And we have only ourselves to blame for electing the goons that ignore our welfare and act selfishly.


----------



## Graham Taylor (27 May 2004)

*Do I not like this ?*

What are you guys on about ? Are the exams over and you have too much spare time on our hands or something ?

Do I not like this ? I think not. Or I think so. Whatever.


----------



## Gary Linekar (27 May 2004)

*football anyone?*

Graham,
It looks like someone who shall remain anonymous fanies himself as Oscar Wilde or something. Silly really.


----------



## Max Hopper (27 May 2004)

> the costs of ameliorating the environment to be borne by the contaminator ('polluter pays'.)


To clarify, I wish to make the observation of the EU's proclivity towards accountability. Bin charges spring to mind, but we pay for rubbish collection with PAYE taxes, I hear you cry. The increasing tendency to assess costs and charges to individuals rather than the state (and by extention, the Exchequer), supports the fundamentals of capitalism, not communalism.<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->But if putting a family up in a B&B on a wet night salves the conscience of the 'champagne socialist' in you, work away. Just do not expect that any good will come from it. Just as redistribution of (your personally obtained) wealth through the disbursement of hous*es* (not hous*ing*, which remains the property of the State) develops no self-respect in the recipients.<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->But hey, *Opinions are like assholes. Everybody has one. 
    — “Dirty Harry” .*​


----------



## zinger (27 May 2004)

*!!*

Quote”Harkening back to your denunciation of the deregulation/price increase coupling, please explain the operation of ESB.”

Do you have to ask such a self-evident question? , We all are well aware of the operation of the ESB, it’s the potential operation that’s under scrutiny.

 “We are facing yet another price rise by a state-controlled, regulated utility. Dearie me! How can that happen? Input costs change. Meteorological factors”.

Again another ridiculous jocular remark at the previous poster , did I hear you say something like sarcasm was an injury no wait it was “Sarcasm, my dears. A self-inflicted injury, 'own goal'.”

Anyone one has the remotest sense of operational management and financial astuteness would understand that a large operation such as the ESB require mammoth planning, forecasting, management, procedural process, union interaction, financial and legal management.
The price rise has been substantiated by ESB and as a matter of educating you by way of advice all these documents and accounts are fully accessible by you, Joe Public.


“The avarice surrounding the first flotation of Eircom was palpable. I was asked my opinion of the initial flotation by several colleagues. My view remains resolute. The telecom market in Ireland is too small to support privatisation. Do not buy this dog of an issue.”

The telecom market in Ireland at the moment has three major players in O2 and Vodafone and a third in Meteor, we also have the onset of 3G and broadband so I cannot see how you could advise someone that the market is too small or restricted.
You have to see Eircom as more of a landline supplier, but I am sure your colleagues could probably debate that all day long.
The problem with Eircom was not the commodity but the price of the share on offer, 
The price was disproportionate to the potential growth and the current condition of the company, and it was also during the height of the economic downturn, ergo they where a flop. Your argument about privatisation in the market is redundant, most investors where first time investors, looking for a good return on their Celtic Tiger funds. But the best market of all is the property market and while those that dipped and dabbled with stocks where left far behind by the bricks and mortar appreciations.



I am in complete agreement with the clauses in the Nice Treaty that provide for the costs of ameliorating the environment to be borne by the contaminator ('polluter pays'.) Privatisation must be accompanied by both potential reward and loss. 
Ok Max now you are getting tedious, can you concoct some clear concise points and substantiate them please as this is straight from the school of BS waffle "Privatisation must be accompanied by both potential reward and loss."
The idea of privatisation is to explicitly the sell off or part of a state sponsored body in the knowledge that they will become more profitable and streamlined and will make a greater contribution to the state and the economy. All business has risk, reward and loss and privatisation is no exception, but you are actually saying that loss must be an acceptable risk, which it is in every part of life.


Max your manifest seems to indicate that the state should pay for the various issues as above, but how to you think they receive their funding??.
Its all about accountability as you state and in relation to waste and bins charges like you said that you agree with the notion that the “polluter pays”, very contradictory considering you feel that the state should fund our growing mismanagement of household waste and not the polluter?

Res Ipsa Loquitur


----------



## Max Hopper (27 May 2004)

Lost the plot again, did we?<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->





> We all are well aware of the operation of the ESB, it’s the potential operation that’s under scrutiny.


ESB has the same external influencers as privately-held power company. But price increases (and I have yet to experience a decrease) by ESB are no more controllable than that of SoCalEd. Customers of public and private suppliers face the same price spiral. The distinguishing trait between them being that public utilities frequently turn to the Exchequer for a subvention or reduce or eliminate their budget contribution.<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->N.B. I am not moaning about ESB's price rises. I think they are warranted. And I for one am prepared to pay even more per kWH to shutter the peat-fired smokers in the BMW region.<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->





> A self-inflicted injury, 'own goal'.


Eircom *never* should have been floated. From the beginning the taxpayer and subscribers should have been protesting. But 'cute hoorism' reigned once more supreme in Ireland and the CWU members got their ESOP payout and voted FF. Again.<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->





> The telecom market in Ireland at the moment has three major players...


Correct. Partially. Three *dominant* players in the mobile market. And they are milking the cash cow (can you say 'highest ARPU in the EU?') for all it is worth. And the 'invisible hand of Adam Smith' was not unshackled when Eircom did float. ComReg is nothing more than a toothless Celtic tiger. None of the post-disposal codicils were immediately adhered to nor enforced (DSL, single billing, FNP, etc.). Eircom was permitted to sally forth unimpeded and unchanged.





> But the best market of all is the property market and while those that dipped and dabbled with stocks where left far behind by the bricks and mortar appreciations.


Famous last words? Lest we forget the first lesson of Commerce 101, an asset has no value until sold. Crow about appreciation, but remember that the profit realised upon selling is lost to the seller at the next purchase. Stocks do not operate under such onerous conditions. And before one believes that the property market can be 'timed' (sell high/buy back low) the inventory of available housing stock in Ireland at any given moment pales in comparision to the endless types of issues on the world bourses.





> very contradictory considering you feel that the state should fund our growing mismanagement of household waste and not the polluter?


Nope. My motto is 'to each his own'. I subscribe to the northern European methods of waste management. Privatise the collect, sorting, and sale of recyclable materials. A by-product of waste management privatisation is that we would all, overnight, receive multi-compartment bins for sorting our rubbish. Private enterprise will invest in the expectation of reducing labour costs. And if you do the sorting... they do not have to.<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->N'est pas?<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->*Greed is good.<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->— “Gordon Gecko”*​


----------



## Max Hopper (27 May 2004)

Missed this jewel -





> The problem with Eircom was not the commodity but the price of the share on offer


Caveat emptor


----------



## ConMan (27 May 2004)

*max*

Anyone else think this guy just talks pure drivel?


----------



## icantbelieveitstaken (27 May 2004)

*Re: max*

Not really, although Max does manage to distract people from his salient points by hiding them deep within a clever use of words, designed probably to gratify himself rather than provide clarity to his argument. 
Maybe Max has an piggy-phobia but at some point during this thread he resisted the urge to descend to personal attacks as before and actually began to provide an informative (if somewhat agressive) and interesting contribution to the debate.


----------



## ConMan (27 May 2004)

*re:max*

But when you wade through the forest of words his points are relatively lame.
I find his self gratification childish.


----------



## girth (27 May 2004)

*troll*

I think this guy fits in to the troll tag, absolute gormless waffle, I think zinger hit the nail on the head, this guy keeps on contradicting himself and going off into inane drivel, given that his use of the words are very much incognizant and contradictive I feel that it is someone gone berserk with Shift F7.


I mean just take this slice "but remember that the profit realized upon selling is lost to the seller at the next purchase." Yeah hello the seller has made the kill and the risk is gone and profit is in the bag, but the buyer takes all the risk and the potential profit which has been steady 10/25% in the Dublin Market for the 4 years and plus, however past history tells us that property has been a sound more consistent investment than stocks, stocks are unforgiving unlike property, when you loose you lose bad, too risky.

And what is with the “Greed is Good” tag when you are axing the “champagne socialites” on the previous thread, you truly are one incognizant crustacean on the butt hole of literature. Do you work, in what line, I am getting firm ideas here that you must be a first year student who has just done well in his CDVEC English exam? Yeah

A little knowledge is certainly a dangerous thing ! AAM


----------



## Max Hopper (27 May 2004)

C'mon, lads. Yez tink jez 'cuz he don't spick like uz youz should be makin' fun a him? Don't make a person iggrant cuz de talk dif'rnt. Jayzus!


----------



## Max Hopper (27 May 2004)

> Yeah hello the seller has made the kill and the risk is gone and profit is in the bag,...


And exactly where does the seller live after the sale? Is he enjoying a long dirt nap?<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->N.B. It is 'socialist', not 'socialite'.


----------



## ConMan (27 May 2004)

Do you talk like that in real life too?


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## ConMan (27 May 2004)

N.B. It is 'socialist', not 'socialite'. 


You have my vote for most annoying AAM-er of all time max. Well done.


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## Max Hopper (27 May 2004)

Aspiring to the top post in Dail Eireann and a burning desire to live in Dumcondra lead me to emulate [broken link removed].<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->The Peoples Choice.


----------



## Guest (27 May 2004)

NB: it's "people's choice" not "peoples choice".


----------



## Max Hopper (27 May 2004)

> And what is with the “Greed is Good” tag when you are axing the “champagne socialites” on the previous thread, you truly are one incognizant crustacean on the butt hole of literature. Do you work, in what line, I am getting firm ideas here that you must be a first year student who has just done well in his CDVEC English exam? Yeah


girth, are you angry that the educational system in Ireland failed you?<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->I have yet to contradict myself. Perhaps the need to post hastily conceived brickbats rather than considered opinion causes a loss in reading comprehension.<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->Talk amongst yourselves.


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## sol (27 May 2004)

*the seller*

the happy seller still lives in his own home. Obviously.


----------



## Max Hopper (27 May 2004)

Please look directly into the machine and read aloud definition number 3.


----------



## ConMan (27 May 2004)

I have yet to contradict myself


:rollin


----------



## sol (27 May 2004)

*..*

Don't know ho to use a dictionary do we? Its possessive...


----------



## Guest (27 May 2004)

>  Please look directly into the machine and read aloud definition number 3.

The possessive apostrophe 101:


----------



## ConMan (27 May 2004)

*re; possessive 101*

Your college buddies won't be impressed Max. You might be out of the fraternity now!!!


----------



## Max Hopper (27 May 2004)

Quite presumptuous and grammatically deficient of you to interpret my statement as possessive. I stand by the meaning as written. But you have diverted the thread tangentially.


----------



## zinger (27 May 2004)

*Max the Meek*

I stated :
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah hello the seller has made the kill and the risk is gone and profit is in the bag,...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Max stated: 
And exactly where does the seller live after the sale? Is he enjoying a long dirt nap?


Well Max have you ever heard of the theory of two residences or wait for this even 3,4 or 5 , I know that it is a hard thing to grasp coming from your background , you are showing your true colours now.


By the way on the awareness of your contardictions can i refresh your memory....
Max
“We are facing yet another price rise by a state-controlled, regulated utility. Dearie me! How can that happen? Input costs change. Meteorological factors”.

Zinger
Again another ridiculous jocular remark at the previous poster , did I hear you say something like sarcasm was an injury no wait it was “Sarcasm, my dears. A self-inflicted injury, 'own goal'.”

then Max Stated:
N.B. I am not moaning about ESB's price rises. I think they are warranted. And I for one am prepared to pay even more per kWH to shutter the peat-fired smokers in the BMW region.

Max , Oh Max it seems that you remark to Girth most probably has its origins in your own experiences and shortcomings


----------



## ConMan (27 May 2004)

*re:*

No. Wait. You managed to get 3 big words into that last one Max. I can see the forgiving faces on your buddies now. Your safe.


----------



## Max Hopper (27 May 2004)

Oh dear. It appears that armed conflict is about to erupt.





> Well Max have you ever heard of the theory of two residences or wait for this even 3,4 or 5 , I know that it is a hard thing to grasp coming from your background , you are showing your true colours now.


Certainly I have heard of the concept of slum ownership. Perhaps you can help Bridget out and post one of the numerous excess deeds you hold to her. And while your at An Post (yet another failed state operation), bung one my way.





> By the way on the awareness of your *contardictions{Sp?}* can i refresh your memory....


Tis quite refreshing to find another as aberrated as myself.





> Max
> “We are facing yet another price rise by a state-controlled, regulated utility. Dearie me! How can that happen? Input costs change. Meteorological factors”.
> 
> Zinger
> ...


Thick as shoeleather, that satirical style. Wot ya reckin?


----------



## ConMan (28 May 2004)

Do you take a lot of mind-bending, hallucinogenic drugs Max?


----------



## DaveYer (28 May 2004)

*Max Hopper!*

This is what happened when True Blue mated with hooper.


----------



## zebra 3 (28 May 2004)

*>>>>>>>>>>>*

Max one thinks you should quit while you are behind Zinger has wiped the floor with you.

Has anyone ever seen Rainman , he was excellent with numbers but oblivious to everything else.

I see a sequel coming on here , Max Babbit.....do you buy you undies in K mart.


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## Max Hopper (28 May 2004)

<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->Waay-haay! High fives all 'round! Oiy! Watch where yer spillin yer pint, yeh eejit!


----------



## ConMan (28 May 2004)

It's your round Max. Mine's a heino.

P.S Did you see some of the questions on that exam today??? That's Mrs Hunter is a real b*tch eh?


----------



## Max Hopper (28 May 2004)

He's being shown the !​<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->That's Mrs Hunter is a real b*tch eh?


----------



## ConMan (28 May 2004)

*re That's Mr's Hunter*

:rollin 


You're too easy Max...just too easy. Hook, line and sinker.


----------



## Max Hopper (28 May 2004)

[broken link removed]<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->Awesome! You possess all the brilliance of a small appliance bulb, ConMan.<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->Do you jump out from behind fences to frighten OAPs, too?


----------



## ConMan (28 May 2004)

Max...stop trolling the internet for funny little pictures and smiley faces and go back to class for pity sake.


----------



## ConMan (28 May 2004)

*re*

Here you go Max. Hrees a spelling mistake for you to play with. Go look up a dictionary and get back to me.


----------



## Max Hopper (28 May 2004)

He's being shown a second !​<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->...and go back to class for pity*'s* sake.<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->*Sage* advice from one that failed to heed his own.


----------



## ConMan (28 May 2004)

*re*

Wlel done Max. Glad to see you don't waste your days.

10 points for spotting the error(s) in this one.


----------



## Max Hopper (28 May 2004)

> _Go look up_ a dictionary and get back to me.


Bertie claimed to have 





> "looked up every tree in north Dublin"


 and the called look up other's garments.<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->But I look *in*, *at*, or *upon* books.<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->Prepositions, the bane of English speakers everywhere.<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->*Not worthy! Not worthy!*


----------



## ConMan (28 May 2004)

*re*

You bring new meaning to the word 'nerd' Max.

P.S Nice picture again. You college kids love that alternative humour, don't you?


----------



## Max Hopper (28 May 2004)

Frank Zappa cut an album that parodied the easily offended,<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->Apparently abuse of the English language *is* permissible in Ireland (well, in internet forums.)<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->ConMan penned





> You bring *{a}* new meaning*{s}* to the word 'nerd' *{a comma (**,**) belongs here in direct statements}* Max.


Either form is correct, but you receive -10 points for improper handling of nouns.


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## ConMan (28 May 2004)

*re*

:lol 


I tink u r on de rong forum Max. Check out alt.nerd.com

P.S I'm not offended at all Max. I'm just getting a buzz off you. I've never met a bigger nerd in all my life.


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## conman (28 May 2004)

*re*

Or you could check out this site.


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## Bridget (29 May 2004)

*grammar, Max?*

------------------------------
 And while your at An Post 
------------------------------

your = possessive

you're  = abbreviation of "you are"


But this is ridiculously off topic.


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## conman (29 May 2004)

*re: grammar, Max?*

I think you just got a RED CARD max.


:rollin


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## Maxbabbit (29 May 2004)

*Zapped*

Hello Max. Frank Zappa also stated that "Stupidity is the basic building block of the universe."

So i would say that makes you the Keystone of the Galaxy.



I beleive that there is unseen hand in the mind of Maxpower.


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