# When did Dunleary become Dún Laoghaire?



## ajapale (18 Jan 2008)

Does anyone know when (and why) Dunleary become Dún Laoghaire?

Almost everyone I know from the port borough formerly known as Kingstown refers to *Dunleary* pronounced "*done-leery*". When was the inelegant and difficult to pronounce *Dún Laoghaire* become current?

How would one go about changing it back to the perfectly acceptable Dunleary.


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## ClubMan (18 Jan 2008)

I presume you're talking about the correct _Irish _language pronunciation of _Dún Laoghaire_ as opposed to it being pronounced colloquially but technically incorrectly as "done-leery". I've never seen _Dunleary _written anywhere officially (e.g. signs, addresses etc.) but I could be wrong (worked out there for several years in the 90s). If you want to revert even further why not _Kingstown_?


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## ajapale (18 Jan 2008)

I suppose I have a few different questions.

Of all the towns and cities in Ireland why does Dunleary take its Gaelic form when writing in the English language. And when this transformation happen?

When speaking English a growing number of people are using the Gaelic pronunciation.


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## Sue Ellen (18 Jan 2008)

I've only ever seen it spelt as Dun Laoghaire or Dun Laoire.


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## Crugers (18 Jan 2008)

ajapale said:


> I suppose I have a few different questions.
> 
> Of all the towns and cities in Ireland why does Dunleary take its Gaelic form when writing in the English language. And when this transformation happen?
> 
> When speaking English a growing number of people are using the Gaelic pronunciation.


 

Careful now... You might be opening a *Ceannus Mor *of worms...


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## ClubMan (18 Jan 2008)

ajapale said:


> When speaking English a growing number of people are using the Gaelic pronunciation.


Even if this is true (evidence?) - so what?


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## gebbel (18 Jan 2008)

ajapale said:


> Does anyone know when (and why) Dunleary become Dún Laoghaire?
> 
> How would one go about changing it back to the perfectly acceptable Dunleary.


 
I would have thought that a poster who has the Irish "An Riocht" under his posting name be more than happy to stick with Irish place names over their anglicized versions?


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## Simeon (19 Jan 2008)

As were the indigenous burghers of Daingean Ui Chuis?


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## zag (19 Jan 2008)

If you believe the history books then Dunleary is the very old part of the area down by the Purty Kitchen/Salthill area, and as such is a different place than (although located within) Dun Laoghaire.  So Dunleary has not "become Dún Laoghaire".  I'm pretty sure there was never a borough called Dunleary, but I could be wrong.

As an aside, I remember the Boomtown Rats had a song called "How do you spell Dun Laoghaire ?" as a b-side for one of their singles.  Or it may have been called "How do you spell Dunleary ?" possibly.  It was a long time ago and the memory is not so good.

I've lived the best part of the last 40 years within a few miles of the harbour and worked in DL for many years and I think it is safe to say that very, very few of the people I know have ever pronounced it 'as gaelige' - Doon Layrah.  Almost everyone I know pronounces it Dun Leery.  Maybe it's just the people you meet who pronounce it the other way.

I have noticed that people have started calling it DL these days, but obviously this is only usefull in conversation with a person who knows the area or where the context of the conversation lends itself to understanding what DL is supposed to be.

z


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## GeneralZod (19 Jan 2008)

ajapale said:


> Of all the towns and cities in Ireland why does Dunleary take its Gaelic form when writing in the English language. And when this transformation happen?



I suspect the timing of the name change back to Dún Laoghaire in 1921 provides the clue to why there's no official anglicised version to go with the more native Irish version. The people involved probably wanted to compound the dig at the British/Unionists.


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## ClubMan (19 Jan 2008)

I always thought that "The Borough" was one of the last _Dublin _bastions for people who would be unlikely to be taking digs at the _British/Unionists_?


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## Guest127 (19 Jan 2008)

ajapale said:


> I suppose I have a few different questions.
> 
> Of all the towns and cities in Ireland why does Dunleary take its Gaelic form when writing in the English language.


 
Cobh also used extensively.

Kingstown and Queenstown definitely don't have the same _ Ring_ as Cobh and  Dun Laoghaire.


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## ajapale (19 Jan 2008)

Thanks for the many very high quality replies!

If I can summarise:

Dunleary changed its name to Kingstown in the early 1800's

Kingstown changed its name to Dún Laoghaire in 1921.

Since then most people pronounce Dún Laoghaire "Done leerey" when speaking English. Leaving only the occasional RTE newsreader who pronounes in the Gaelic fashion when speaking English.

There are other towns which have gone through similar changes notably.
Cobh (pronounced Cove) formerly known as Queenstown.
Ceannas Mór (is this Kells??)
Droighead Nua (Newbridge Co Kildare)
Dangean Co Offaly (Phillipstown, in the Kings County)
Portlaoise Co Laoise (formerly Marborough in the Queens County)

aj


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## GeneralZod (19 Jan 2008)

ClubMan said:


> I always thought that "The Borough" was one of the last _Dublin _bastions for people who would be unlikely to be taking digs at the _British/Unionists_?



It was named Kingstown in 1821 so entering into further supposition given the political upheaval of their times they were probably attracted to the symbolism of naming it back on the centenary. It would be interesting to know more about the councilors concerned. The only links I can find on the web suggest it was an unpopular decision at the time.


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## sherib (19 Jan 2008)

A small correction in the interest of accuracy. Portlaoise was known as Mar*y*borough in Queens County. My mother always called it that. It was the most planted county in Ireland I was led to believe. Farmers in County Laois were actively involved at the time of the Land League and Davitt.

[broken link removed]
[broken link removed]

County Laoghis became County Laois in English for simplicity I'd imagine. At one time it was called County Leix - but there's no 'x' in the Irish language.

I've always known Dun Laoghaire as that or as Dun Laoire. However, I have a vague recollection of receiving post from DLRCo.Council in the last 15 years with the address given as _Dunleary_. It musn't have caught on.


> Originally Posted by *ClubMan*
> _I always thought that "The Borough" was one of the last Dublin bastions for people who would be unlikely to be taking digs at the British/Unionists? _


I think you're right about that. Dun Laoghaire figured quite a bit in James Plunkett's book "_Strumpet City_" and would have supported that view.



> [broken link removed]
> _King’s County was made up of five kingdoms. It was formed at the start of the plantation of 1556 because the chieftains of Offaly and Laois were fighting against England. The Queen of England, Mary, and her husband, Philip, planted them. They did a survey on the lands and then decided to call the lands after themselves. Mary called Laois 'Queens County' after herself and Philip called Offaly 'Kings County' after himself. Kings County took in five ancient Irish territories_


_._


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## sherib (19 Jan 2008)

> More about Dun Laoghaire [broken link removed]
> 
> _Dún Laoghaire gets it's name from the Irish Translation, Fort (Dún) of Laoghaire. King Laoghaire was the ancient High King of Ireland before the Vikings arrived. When the English came they *renamed *the town Dunlary (Dunleary) to suit the English tongue. In 1821 it was renamed Kingstown by King George IV of England to honour his visit to the town that year. It remained Kingstown through Victorian times until in 1921, one year before independence, the town council voted to change the name back to the ancient Irish name Dún Laoghaire. The person most responsible for this was the Irish Martyr John Moran who was commemorated with the naming of Moran Park.</B>_


[broken link removed]
_The present name, Dun Laoghaire, was adopted again in 1920. This name was the Irish version of Dunleary meaning the fort of Laoghaire._


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## GeneralZod (19 Jan 2008)

This http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dun_laoghaire says it was 1921.


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## sherib (19 Jan 2008)

What's another year?

The first link above says 1921 too _"It remained Kingstown through Victorian times until in 1921, one year before independence,.." _
though I wouldn't have thought Wikipedia can always lay claim to accuracy.


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## GeneralZod (19 Jan 2008)

sherib said:


> What's another year?


Isn't that a Johnny Logan song title?



sherib said:


> The first link above says 1921 too _"It remained Kingstown through Victorian times until in 1921, one year before independence,.." _
> though



I only mentioned it since you did. 



sherib said:


> I wouldn't have thought Wikipedia can always lay claim to accuracy.



And your link is any more authoritative?


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## Guest127 (20 Jan 2008)

afaik most people in kells refer to it as kells and not as ceannanus mor. in fact don't know anyone who uses the irish name.


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## ajapale (20 Jan 2008)

[SIZE=-1]Is it Bagnalstown or Muine Beag? What do the locals call it?
[/SIZE]


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## gipimann (20 Jan 2008)

cuchulainn said:


> afaik most people in kells refer to it as kells and not as ceannanus mor. in fact don't know anyone who uses the irish name.


 
The only place I ever saw it was on Bus Eireann buses who always displayed Ceannanus Mor, never Kells!   Although they do display both now on the buses.


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## Gordanus (21 Jan 2008)

Lookit, it's always a good one for confusing the tourists! Along with our local pronunciations of Dorset St and D'Olier St.


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## Harlequin (21 Jan 2008)

ajapale said:


> [SIZE=-1]Is it Bagnalstown or Muine Beag? What do the locals call it?[/SIZE]


 
Locals call it Bagtown or B-town. Or Bagenalstown. I've never heard any of the people I know from there call it Muine Bheag. And when you get the train down, it's always called Bagenalstown by the announcer.


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## casiopea (22 Jan 2008)

ajapale said:


> Does anyone know when (and why) Dunleary become Dún Laoghaire?
> 
> Almost everyone I know from the port borough formerly known as Kingstown refers to *Dunleary* pronounced "*done-leery*". When was the inelegant and difficult to pronounce *Dún Laoghaire* become current?
> 
> How would one go about changing it back to the perfectly acceptable Dunleary.



I grew up there and am still a local when at home.  It was always written as Dún Laoghaire or Dun Laoire (never saw Dunleary before this post). The locals still refer to it in english as Dun Laoire.


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## ajapale (22 Jan 2008)

casiopea said:


> The locals still refer to it in English as Dun Laoire.


 
Out of interest how is "*Dun Laoire*" pronounced?


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## Caveat (22 Jan 2008)

cuchulainn said:


> afaik most people in kells refer to it as kells and not as ceannanus mor. in fact don't know anyone who uses the irish name.


 
Nor do I.

But I have to admit that _Kells_, in common with most of the other examples (e.g. Kingstown, Queenstown, Maryborough) sounds very English - which could well be the main reason for the change to the Irish form (?)


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## Purple (22 Jan 2008)

ajapale said:


> Out of interest how is "*Dun Laoire*" pronounced?


 Dun Laoire


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## casiopea (22 Jan 2008)

Purple said:


> Dun Laoire



LOL.  

The standard english pronunciation "done-lary"


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## ClubMan (22 Jan 2008)

ajapale said:


> Out of interest how is "*Dun Laoire*" pronounced?


_Sandycove._


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## ajapale (22 Jan 2008)

Strange OT discussion involving Portlaoise, Americans, Trains and Graphical representation of data moved here: OT: split from Dun Laoire thread.

aj
Moderator


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## oldtimer (24 Jan 2008)

And what about the Co. Cork town of Rath Luirc - also known as Charleville - and have seen postmarks 'An Rath.''


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## Caveat (25 Jan 2008)

oldtimer said:


> And what about the Co. Cork town of Rath Luirc - also known as Charleville - and have seen postmarks 'An Rath.''


 
Again, Charleville to me sounds very English - hence possibly the local preference for Irish form.


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