# Specialist Diploma - Six Sigma



## !RAY (25 Jul 2009)

Hi
i am looking to do the above course in the University of Limerick .The course is distance learning as i live in north dublin.Has anybody any experance of the course and the distance learning ,
Cheers 
Ray


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## Purple (28 Jul 2009)

If you want to work in mass production and love spread sheets, and are seeking like minded people, it's the thing for you.


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## sustanon (29 Jul 2009)

Couple it with a Lean Manufacturing course, or Kaizen techniques, then you are adding useful skills as a manufacturing engineer.


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## Purple (29 Jul 2009)

sustanon said:


> Couple it with a Lean Manufacturing course, or Kaizen techniques, then you are adding useful skills as a manufacturing engineer.



I've read up quite a bit on Kaizen techniques (or events) and lean manufacturing... how do they differ from "talking it through" and "common sense"?


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## sustanon (29 Jul 2009)

"people don't Listen", and "common Sense" is a myth


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## Mpsox (29 Jul 2009)

Purple said:


> I've read up quite a bit on Kaizen techniques (or events) and lean manufacturing... how do they differ from "talking it through" and "common sense"?


 
By and large they don't, been through a number of LSS projects and whereas the methodology is useful, it's nothing that common sense and some thinking that any competent manager should be able to do. To me they are just buzz words for the latest hot management topic, replacing things like JIT (just in time) and ISO 9000 as "must haves" for executives with more money then sense

Might look good on a CV if you want to get into consulting


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## Purple (29 Jul 2009)

Mpsox said:


> By and large they don't, been through a number of LSS projects and whereas the methodology is useful, it's nothing that common sense and some thinking that any competent manager should be able to do. To me they are just buzz words for the latest hot management topic, replacing things like JIT (just in time) and ISO 9000 as "must haves" for executives with more money then sense
> 
> Might look good on a CV if you want to get into consulting



Yea, that's my view as well. I can see the value of ISO 9000 as it establishes an audit trail without imposing a one size fits all structure.


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## Mpsox (29 Jul 2009)

Purple said:


> Yea, that's my view as well. I can see the value of ISO 9000 as it establishes an audit trail without imposing a one size fits all structure.


 
Problem with ISO 9000 and any of these techniques is that they can become more bother then they are worth. I remember working for a multinational and when we ended up having check sheets to control our checksheets, I lost any faith in it


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## krissovo (29 Jul 2009)

Its a very limited subject IMO, I am a green belt and I work in IT services so its a good as useless unless you want to move into manufacturing.  The course I did was two lots of two day sessions but I will not bother looking for my black belt.

I have done a number of these over the years Total Quality, Lean etc and none of them has increased my salary. Possibly made my CV stand out more but nothing more than that.  You still need experience or a qualification as this is only a "cherry" on top.


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## Purple (29 Jul 2009)

Mpsox said:


> Problem with ISO 9000 and any of these techniques is that they can become more bother then they are worth. I remember working for a multinational and when we ended up having check sheets to control our checksheets, I lost any faith in it



That's more to do with a bad quality engineer than doesn't understand the basic ISO requirments.


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## Mpsox (29 Jul 2009)

Purple said:


> That's more to do with a bad quality engineer than doesn't understand the basic ISO requirments.


 
Absolutely, but that is the problem with a lot of these "techniques", they're badly implemented and defeat the purpose for which they were intended


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## Diziet (29 Jul 2009)

While it is true that the mythical common sense will get you some way towards optimisation, an understanding of statistical methods and analysis gets you even further and prevents going down misleading avenues (I have done a lot of numerical analysis to support business decisions and the results were often not what a lot of the experienced managers expected. Which is why I was asked to produce rigorous analysis in the first place; they knew that there was enough complexity there that intuition, experience and common sense were not enough). Six sigma is a set of tools, which, if understood have a lot of scope for optimisation, increase in quality and cost reduction. But you can't blindly follow them - you have to engage the brain.

By the way, they are applicable to the software industry too, but you need to be selective and careful in the implementation. A qualification in itself will not get anyone a pay rise by default, and why should it? But demonstrating results as a result of learning new methods is a better bet for a pay rise any day.


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## Purple (29 Jul 2009)

Diziet said:


> While it is true that the mythical common sense will get you some way towards optimisation, an understanding of statistical methods and analysis gets you even further and prevents going down misleading avenues (I have done a lot of numerical analysis to support business decisions and the results were often not what a lot of the experienced managers expected. Which is why I was asked to produce rigorous analysis in the first place; they knew that there was enough complexity there that intuition, experience and common sense were not enough). Six sigma is a set of tools, which, if understood have a lot of scope for optimisation, increase in quality and cost reduction. But you can't blindly follow them - you have to engage the brain.
> 
> By the way, they are applicable to the software industry too, but you need to be selective and careful in the implementation. A qualification in itself will not get anyone a pay rise by default, and why should it? But demonstrating results as a result of learning new methods is a better bet for a pay rise any day.



The problem is that many people who think its great don't understand it. If you don't have the volume to give meaningful figures then a statistical analysis is useless.
I’m in low volume, high-end manufacturing. I had a customer in high volume manufacturing who thought 6-Sigma was great. It took 8 weeks and a green-belt project to show him that it was a waste of time


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## sustanon (29 Jul 2009)

ISO9000-2008 places a large emphasis on continual improvement aka Kaizen. There is no one size fits all solution. For me it was a massive investment in production equipment, allowing me to triple the output of my plant without increasing the headcount. Needless to say the owner is very happy, and I get a fat paycheck. however, I still see waste, we have a great continual improvement program that involves everyone, and has cash rewards.. still waiting to see how that pans out, but we dish out a $100 petrol card each quarter to the best suggestion. before you ask, the merit is not based on the monetary benefits of the suggestion, more for the creative thinking that gets applied.

We have a reasonable level of complexity in our products, but we also have a reasonable level of repetition. This is why a current installation of MRP software is proving disastrous. For me, simple is best, this is where 5S, Kaizen, lean flow, kanban, visual cues are all great. We're not a multinational, so we don't have these philosophies coming to us from a far away parent, which is the case in Ireland a lot of the time. My point to the OP is to gain the skills, you'll have them for life, but Manufacturing in Ireland is changing. there are plenty of opportunities to use these skills in home-grown operations, but "Home-grown" may not mean Irish....


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## Diziet (30 Jul 2009)

Purple said:


> I had a customer in high volume manufacturing who thought 6-Sigma was great. It took 8 weeks and a green-belt project to show him that it was a waste of time



So they thought it was all great (which part exactly, I wonder?) without actually doing the analysis. The whole point of the 6 sigma approach is the numerical analysis. But I agree that if it is used a a blind cribsheet it does not have much value. And a bit of training does not make one a good analyst - this takes experience and, as I said before, being critical and engaging the brain.


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## Purple (30 Jul 2009)

Diziet said:


> So they thought it was all great (which part exactly, I wonder?) without actually doing the analysis. The whole point of the 6 sigma approach is the numerical analysis. But I agree that if it is used a a blind cribsheet it does not have much value. And a bit of training does not make one a good analyst - this takes experience and, as I said before, being critical and engaging the brain.



The problem was that they were asking us to draw conclusions from small batch runs so the numerical analysis would have been next to worthless.


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## Diziet (31 Jul 2009)

Purple said:


> The problem was that they were asking us to draw conclusions from small batch runs so the numerical analysis would have been next to worthless.



Quite agree - which is where being critical and engaging brain comes in handy!


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## sunrock (2 Aug 2009)

There are numerous such courses around this or very similiar topics run by our institutes of technology or fas.What is your reason for wanting to do this course? What is your previous education in this area? Why not attend a course..I think drogheda and dundalk do these type of courses
Also.. what advantage do you think this type of qualification would be for you in the current job market?


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## !RAY (3 Aug 2009)

I can’t take the time off work to attend a course, I also work shift. I have an ordinary Degree in manufacturing Engineering. I also have gained a lean qualification from work. I am going to do the course to gain more experience in Six Sigma. I hope this will give me an extra edge if I need to change job. Six Sigma is been used in all sectors.


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## sunrock (3 Aug 2009)

People doing these courses usually do so to actually get a job....so your first priority is to keep  the job you have .Do you think this or a similiar qualification will give you any advantage in the workplace either in your own company or a different company. The answer is probably not. How much will the distance learning course cost? and who will pay for it? If I were you, I would just go to the bookshop or amazon on the internet and buy a good book on 6 sigma or lean manufacturing  etc and study it by yourself.


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## !RAY (3 Aug 2009)

Work will pay for the course. The course  is 4000 euro, and lasts 10 months. Every company is trying to cut costs, having done the Six Sigma program can only help. To first stay in the job I am in at the moment and if need be get another job. It is better to have the course done. I do know that if my company is recruiting and two people apply, they both have the same qualifications but one has experience in Lean  they will get the Job. You can buy a book on anything but it’s having the piece of paper that counts at an interview.


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## Complainer (3 Aug 2009)

A bit part of any six sigma training is working through a real-lift project in your work environment. You will need the support/agreement of your employer to do this.


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## !RAY (3 Aug 2009)

That will not be a problem. Every Employer likes something for nothing.


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## Complainer (3 Aug 2009)

!RAY said:


> That will not be a problem. Every Employer likes something for nothing.


In theory, yes. But will they support you when you want to bring in additional measurement steps that will take manpower to implement (for example)? Will they support you when you want to implement changes in the process to assess the impact? This is not a trivial matter.


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## !RAY (3 Aug 2009)

I have to say yes . Its going to be harder to get the buy in from the staff.People do not like change.


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## sunrock (3 Aug 2009)

Is this the distance learning course from limerick that takes 10 months and costs 4k?
Remember even if you do this course you could still fail to pass.Even if you get the cert or whatever,why do you think your employer will pay you more or promote you?
We are in a recession and firms are trying to cit costs.Is your company in the loop about your plans....I mean if they are encouraging this type of training maybe they could help you out? I presume you will have to fork out the 4k yourself. If your firm is willing to pay, then do an evening course at a local college...they all do variations of this type of training


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## !RAY (3 Aug 2009)

I work shift so its one early than one week late .i aim to do   the best job i can for my present employer .Nobody knows what tomorrow will bring ,so i wamt  to be as marketable as possable if i need to get another job, thats my only plan. i am very lucky that my employer will pay ,so as long as the company is in buisness we will both benefit from the new skills i learn .


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## Mel (3 Aug 2009)

Why are the responses to this post so negative? 
I don't see where Ray has suggested that his employer should/would pay him more for having this qualification? 
Sometimes this site puzzles me...
My own 2 cents is that the distance courses from UL are ok, they provide good material and the standard they expect is high enough to make it worth your while doing the course in the first place. 
Are people seriously suggesting that a course over a few days by a private body (which would probably cost nearly as much) or buying a book would provide the same benefit/educational value as 10 months interaction and discussion with fellow students, tutorials, assignments, practical project work and exams? 
These courses are generally subsidised by Enterprise Ireland so refundable to the company and/or the participant, and a lot of companies, even in these times, offer refund of fees on completion of a relevant course. 

The only advice I would give is to think about whether distance learning is for you - it's a long lonely slog, and generally outside of tutorials it's up to yourself to keep motivated. UL offer a discussion board with their courses which helps, but you are still geographically distant. Also, it may be worth having a chat with a supervisor/ hr as to what skills & qualifications they are specifically looking for over the next months/ years in terms of HR planning & strategy, or even in your own professional development.


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## !RAY (4 Aug 2009)

It does not matter how many qualifications i gain i will not be payed more and there is no chance of promotion in my company. I have talked to the CI manager in work .In my original post I asked had anybody any experience of doing a Distance learning course in Limerick, Support, study material ect.
Thanks Mel for the advice.


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## sunrock (4 Aug 2009)

Well if your employer is willing to pay,then by all means go for it.Its really up to you then if you want to put the work in.Maybe you could check if your local colleges are offering any courses.....it is usually one evening a week.Good luck


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