# Ryanair Industrial Action



## landlord (11 Dec 2017)

I see this as an unstoppable force (pilot unionization) heading towards an immovable object (Michael O’Leary)

I see the potential for industrial action in Ryanair at a higher level than it has ever been in the history of the airline. This is the first time the pilots have got together as a group displayed unity and said enough is enough. From experience I can say that IALPA (Irish airline pilots Association) is an extremely strong body and a major fight is on the way considering Mr O’Leary steadfast objection to ever  negotiating with unions. 
The Achilles heel for the pilots could be the vast number of contract pilots who may not “walk the line”....or perhaps I should say “may step over the (strike) line”. 
I would imagine the chances of Mr O’Leary ever negotiating with IALPA is around as high as Mr B Burgess ever admitting there is any value in Bitcoin. Sorry Brendan I had to get that one in.


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## TheBigShort (11 Dec 2017)

Well if he is true to his word, and they go on strike, then his only option is to sack the lot of them. I mean, its not as if its a difficult job and accordingly, wasnt that what was reported as being his advice to the employer of LUAS drivers?

http://www.thejournal.ie/oleary-luas-2803362-Jun2016/


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## MrEarl (12 Dec 2017)

TBF, unlike a Luas tram, I think there's more than just a lever for forward and backwards on a plane (they also have an up and down lever to the best of my knowledge, so a far more complicated job  )


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## Dan Murray (12 Dec 2017)

landlord said:


> I see this as an unstoppable force (pilot unionization) heading towards an immovable object (Michael O’Leary)



Nice one Landlord,

Who is the Captain here (pun intended)?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvRYd8U7qGY


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## Purple (12 Dec 2017)

TheBigShort said:


> I mean, its not as if its a difficult job and accordingly, wasnt that what was reported as being his advice to the employer of LUAS drivers?


Do you really think driving a Tram is of a similar difficulty level as flying a large passenger jet?


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## TheBigShort (12 Dec 2017)

Purple said:


> Do you really think driving a Tram is of a similar difficulty level as flying a large passenger jet?



Apologies, I should clarify, it was reported that O'Leary claimed that pilots have an easy job. 
Personally, I would consider flying an areoplane to require a deal more skill and knowledge than driving a tram.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business...-for-doing-a-very-easy-job-1.3229436?mode=amp


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## Purple (12 Dec 2017)

I don't like companies using short term contracts to control their staff.
I don't like the way Ryan Air treats their employees generally.
The problem is there seems to be no middle ground; it's one extreme or the other.
A Union dominated Ryan Air (think Aer Lingus until competition from Ryan Air forced them to change) is just as undesirable to me as what currently exists.


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## MrEarl (12 Dec 2017)

The growth in passenger numbers, year on year, supports the non union based business model that Ryanair employ...

Ultimately, people may not like to admit it, but we embrace the current business model by flying Ryanair.

Ryanair would struggle to hire or retain staff, if they didn't threat them reasonably well.  Despite hearing the odd "horror story" from an ex-employee of Ryanair (much the same as you might hear from the odd employee of another company), I don't get the impression that they are terrible employers and they don't seem to have a problem recruiting or retaining staff.

Granted, we've had recent reports of a mass exodus of pilots, but that's probably the first time in the existence of Ryanair that something like this has happened.  So, subject to Ryanair amending their pay scales to reflect what the market currently pays, doesn't life just go back to normal ?


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## Firefly (12 Dec 2017)

landlord said:


> I see the potential for industrial action in Ryanair at a higher level than it has ever been in the history of the airline.



I agree and look forward to higher prices and reduced routes.


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## Purple (12 Dec 2017)

Firefly said:


> I agree and look forward to higher prices and reduced routes.


Unfortunately you are probably correct; better pay but fewer jobs. That is the function of Unions though, to protect the haves from the have-not's.


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## TheBigShort (12 Dec 2017)

MrEarl said:


> Granted, we've had recent reports of a mass exodus of pilots, but that's probably the first time in the existence of Ryanair that something like this has happened. So, subject to Ryanair amending their pay scales to reflect what the market currently pays, doesn't life just go back to normal ?



Doesn't the exodus of pilots indicate poor pay and conditions, relative to their counterparts in other airlines?
Unfortunately, Ryanair have been pretty dogmatic over the years, in their refusal to engage with trade unions. Now that it appears the issue is being put up to them by their some of their employees, it would appear they are in an awkward spot - do they hold firm and try to beat the union or take a more pragmatic approach, engage, negotiate, and resolve the pertinent issue of pilot retention?


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## MrEarl (13 Dec 2017)

TheBigShort said:


> Doesn't the exodus of pilots indicate poor pay and conditions, relative to their counterparts in other airlines? ....



And that's why I said _"So, subject to Ryanair amending their pay scales to reflect what the market currently pays_, doesn't life just go back to normal ?

... strangely, you actually seem to have quoted it in your post just above, but then missed it.


As for the question about what Ryanair should do regarding the current issue and whether it should agree to negotiate with unions or not, that's a judgement call for the guys'n'gals at Ryanair.  There is good and bad to dealing with trade unions, but also with difficult employers, so I'd have mixed views on the entire subject tbh and haven't settled on my opinion as to what should happen in this case.  However, ultimately the way I see it is quite simple - treat your employees well and they will stay with you, work hard etc., then, everyone is happy


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## TheBigShort (13 Dec 2017)

Mr Earl, I wasnt disagreeing with you or trying to highlight any contradiction in your post. Merely developing the discussion from adjusting pay scales and life goes back to normal to factor in Ryanairs attitude to trade unions. 
Before payscales are adjusted, negotiation is required. Will Ryanair negotiate with a trade union? If yes, their policy in that regard is in tatters. If no, it looks like a strike, and if the advice offered to other employers with their striking crew is followed through this could get a lot messier before it gets better.
If there are better offers of employment from other airlines, it would appear, at this point anyway, pilots are in a very strong position.


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## Ceist Beag (13 Dec 2017)

MrEarl said:


> threat your employees well


Oh Mr O'Leary is well able to threaten his employees alright, not sure it will encourage them to stay with him though!


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## Firefly (13 Dec 2017)

I believe it is the captains, who are employees at Ryanair, who are calling the strike action. Whatever happens in the coming weeks, I would expect Ryanair to start hiring more & more captains from agencies going forward. This would have the effect of diluting the power of the current captains.


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## MrEarl (13 Dec 2017)

TheBigShort said:


> Mr Earl, I wasnt disagreeing with you or trying to highlight any contradiction in your post. Merely developing the discussion from adjusting pay scales and life goes back to normal to factor in Ryanairs attitude to trade unions.
> Before payscales are adjusted, negotiation is required. Will Ryanair negotiate with a trade union? If yes, their policy in that regard is in tatters. If no, it looks like a strike, and if the advice offered to other employers with their striking crew is followed through this could get a lot messier before it gets better.
> If there are better offers of employment from other airlines, it would appear, at this point anyway, pilots are in a very strong position.



OK, not how I read your post, but we are all good 

It seems to me that the airline industry is generally doing very well at the moment, so there are alternative jobs for many of the pilots, who might move.  Is it not easier to move to a better job, on better terms or with a perceived better employer, than go through a battle you may not even win ?

Ryanair have already made financial offers to try and resolve this, but to date I'm assuming the offers were simply not rewarding enough.  Perhaps it's time that Ryanair dug a little deeper ?


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## Firefly (13 Dec 2017)

MrEarl said:


> Ryanair have already made financial offers to try and resolve this, but to date I'm assuming the offers were simply not rewarding enough.  _Perhaps it's time that Ryanair dug a little deeper ?_



I think they will, in the short term, and then look to outsource even more. I think the pilots will win the battle but Ryanair will win the war...


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## Purple (14 Dec 2017)

Firefly said:


> I think they will, in the short term, and then look to outsource even more. I think the pilots will win the battle but Ryanair will win the war...


The bottom line is that the demand for pilots is increasing. Boeing said that the industry needs a half a million new pilots over the next 20 years to meet forecasted demand. At the moment the pilot only fly's the plane about 10% of the time (and 90% of crashes are due to pilot error) and both takeoff and  landing can be done by the autopilot but I don't see any pilotless passenger planes any time soon.
Therefore this issue won't go away. Most of that growth will be in Asia but it is a very labour mobile industry (obviously). If Ryan Air want to keep the Unions at bay they will have to throw lots of money at their Captains.


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## TheBigShort (14 Dec 2017)

Purple said:


> If Ryan Air want to keep the Unions at bay they will have to throw lots of money at their Captains.



A moot point really isn't it? I don't think the pilots on an individual basis would ever envisage a scenario where Ryanair would be throwing lots of money at them. 
This is a collective effort. Typically in line with most trade union movements. Triggered by a self-interest to protect their own self-worth, justified by their contribution to growing productivity and wealth. James Connolly and Adam Smith would be proud.


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## Leper (15 Dec 2017)

Money will resolve the situation in Ryanair. But, the history of yer man's treatment of all his staff resonates well with the pilots. They will not be walked on. If I were in O'Leary's boots I would be treading more carefully in future in dealings with his staff.

Trade Unions are necessary. If staff were treated properly at all times there would be no need for unions. History keeps repeating itself and while I support those who do not want trade union representation, I believe any employee outside of trade union membership needs to look at himself objectively.


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## Purple (15 Dec 2017)

Well Ryan Air blinked; they are recognising Unions.
Hopefully the Unions don't close this business, just like so many others.


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## Purple (15 Dec 2017)

Leper said:


> Trade Unions are necessary. If staff were treated properly at all times there would be no need for unions. History keeps repeating itself and while I support those who do not want trade union representation, I believe any employee outside of trade union membership needs to look at himself objectively.


So if employees have a good relationship with their employer and see that they have a common interest in the success of that business do you really think it's a good idea to bring in an outside organisation which has the dual interest of getting as many subscriptions as possible and has no real interest in the business or the employees as they are just more members, or customers, of their union?


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## TheBigShort (15 Dec 2017)

https://m.independent.ie/business/i...unions-in-major-shift-on-policy-36410701.html

After years of bluster and arrogance against trade unions, it doesnt appear to have taken too much to smash that hardline in the end.

Well done to the pilots who stood up and put themselves forward in the interests of just pay and conditions.


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## Purple (15 Dec 2017)

TheBigShort said:


> After years of bluster and arrogance against trade unions, it doesnt appear to have taken too much to smash that hardline in the end.


I hope the Union in question doesn't take such a antagonistic, confrontational and emotive tone with the company which employs their members. 

It is important to remember that the Union is not made up of the Ryan Air pilots, rather it is a separate organisation which makes its money by getting people to join it. Confrontation is its lifeblood. Balanced and civil engagement by all stakeholders in a business or organisation are its enemy.


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## TheBigShort (15 Dec 2017)

Purple said:


> I hope the Union in question doesn't take such a antagonistic, confrontational and emotive tone with the company which employs their members.



Lets hope its the end of Ryanairs years of antagonistic, confrontational and emotive bluster when it does finally meet with unions.


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## Purple (15 Dec 2017)

TheBigShort said:


> Lets hope its the end of Ryanairs years of antagonistic, confrontational and emotive bluster when it does finally meet with unions.


Agreed, bluster, ego and grandstanding from either side doesn't serve anyone.


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## Deiseblue (15 Dec 2017)

I've had to pinch myself , I must admit that I never thought that I'd see the day when Michael O'Leary would recognise a Union .
I'm absolutely thrilled & hope that all other groups within the Airline manage to organise - the baggage handlers immediately spring to mind .
I'm a bit wary of this olive branch & await the response of the Unions involved before celebrating too wildly .
But hey there's a spring in my step today !


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## MrEarl (15 Dec 2017)

Hello,

Agree that there's a place for trade unions and they do plenty of good ... but sadly, they also cause plenty of unnecessary problems when militant attitudes kick in.

Better legislation and infrastructure to support that legislation, would reduce the need for trade unions etc.


Getting back to Ryanair, I must admit I was expecting a running battle for a while before there was any sort of preliminary deal struct and while there's yet to be agreement on terms, the principal has been agreed with Ryanair agreeing to recognise unions.

Lets just pray that these unions don't turn Ryanair into a disaster like Alitalia etc.


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## blueband (15 Dec 2017)

Deiseblue said:


> I've had to pinch myself , I must admit that I never thought that I'd see the day when Michael O'Leary would recognise a Union .
> I'm absolutely thrilled & hope that all other groups within the Airline manage to organise - the baggage handlers immediately spring to mind .
> I'm a bit wary of this olive branch & await the response of the Unions involved before celebrating too wildly .
> But hey there's a spring in my step today !


Not really that surprising, even the great industrialist Henry Ford wowed he would engage with any workers union.....but he did!


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## Purple (15 Dec 2017)

blueband said:


> Not really that surprising, even the great industrialist Henry Ford wowed he would engage with any workers union.....but he did!


And their global market share has dropped ever since.


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## Leper (15 Dec 2017)

Purple said:


> So if employees have a good relationship with their employer and see that they have a common interest in the success of that business do you really think it's a good idea to bring in an outside organisation which has the dual interest of getting as many subscriptions as possible and has no real interest in the business or the employees as they are just more members, or customers, of their union?



Familiarity breeds contempt. I know there are fair employers who have the best interests of staff at heart. You have good and you have bad employers. If all employers were good you wouldn't need trade unions. If all employees were good you wouldn't need lots of litigation. One thinks the Yin and the Yan. And just for the record the biggest trade union in the country represents employers. They need "unions" too.

Hey! Purple do you think unions are for employers only?


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## TheBigShort (15 Dec 2017)

Just when it was time to light the cigar...

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2017/1215/927552-ryanair-industrial-action/

...its game back on, Ryanair 'cannot' meet until Wednesday, but request pilots to call off strike - scheduled for Wednesday.
Maybe its because their is no-one to cover for their legal and human resource staff until then?

From the outside looking in, I would recommend that the strike be called off. This is a game of give and take, today Ryanair gave more than anyone ever thought they would. If strike goes ahead, after the public statement accepting trade union representation, then it plays into Ryanairs hands as union instrangience and exactly the reason why Ryanair never engaged unions before.

On the otherhand, from the inside looking out (im taking liberties here admittedly), is this Ryanair trying to buy time? If the strike is cancelled, a meeting happens Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, then negotiations collapse, the union will have to serve notice again. Only this time any potential strike will be _after_ the hectic Christmas schedule, in which case Ryanair wont be in as vulnerable position.


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## johnwilliams (15 Dec 2017)

heard that about wanting the meeting wednesday (bit of a laugh)
if ryanair was serious about recognizing the pilots union and trying to prevent strike they would clear their schedules of every other meetings/ work through weekend ,and meet pilots straight away and get this sorted ,seems they are just playing games /giving pilots union runaround ,pilots need to keep pressure on/getting some sort of legal agreement from ryan air ,even at that ryan air will probably refuse to acknowledge union down road ,not sure about unions in other countries but will need to link to aircraft ground handling staff unions as well


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## MrEarl (16 Dec 2017)

TheBigShort said:


> ....
> 
> I would recommend that the strike be called off. This is a game of give and take, today Ryanair gave more than anyone ever thought they would. If strike goes ahead, after the public statement accepting trade union representation, then it plays into Ryanairs hands as union instrangience and exactly the reason why Ryanair never engaged unions before..



I would agree with this.

Ryanair had to swallow a lot of pride to make the announcement they have made, now it's time for the unions to make an important gesture too. 

It's going to be difficult enough trying to get any sort of working relationship up and running between the two sides, without the unions now trying to push Ryanair even further, at this early stage.

So, the question is, do the unions really want to get to the negotiating table with Ryanair, because if they do then there's an opportunity to meet this Wednesday and get the ball rolling.



johnwilliams said:


> heard that about wanting the meeting wednesday (bit of a laugh) ....



I don't see it as a laugh at all, I see it as Ryanair telling the unions if they want to talk then they cancel plans for a strike and come in on Wednesday to talk ... rather than stand outside on the picket, disrupting both the business and passengers alike.

I would expect that the unions are likely to lose significant public support, if they continue to press ahead with plans for their strike, having been offered the chance to meet.



.


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## Deiseblue (16 Dec 2017)

It smacks of brinkmanship on Ryanair’s part , simply arrange the meeting prior to Wednesday - difficulty solved.
You really can’t blame the Unions involved for being more than slightly suspicious of Ryanair’s motives given the outrageous comments on Unions by Mr. O’Leary.
Heartening to see that cabin crew representatives are straight out of the blocks seeking similar Union recognition.


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## cremeegg (16 Dec 2017)

In my 20s I worked in London with a weekly take home pay of £180. A flight home was £200. 

Difficult enough for me a carefree singleton, there were thousands of middle aged labourers on similar money separated from their families by the cost of travel.

I dont know how Air Lingus pensioners sleep at night, given the human misery that paid for their cushy jobs and fat pensions.

Tony Ryan, Seamus Brennan and Michael O Leary changed all that.


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## TheBigShort (16 Dec 2017)

My initial thought was to cancel the strike on foot of the public announcement that recognition would be given to unions. 
However, the notion that Ryanair cannot meet until Wednesday is ludicrous and smacks of intent to to engage in less than respectful tactics with the pilots representatives. 
A meeting to avert a strike should be arranged at the drop of a hat. Its not as if this issue came out of the blue.


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## TheBigShort (16 Dec 2017)

cremeegg said:


> Tony Ryan, Seamus Brennan and Michael O Leary changed all that.



And the pilots who flew the planes, the cabin crew, baggage handlers and maintaineance staff. 
They all played their part in making it the sucess it is.


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## Deiseblue (16 Dec 2017)

Ryanair have backed down again !
They have agreed to meet on Tuesday .
Union response awaited


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## peemac (16 Dec 2017)

cremeegg said:


> In my 20s I worked in London with a weekly take home pay of £180. A flight home was £200.
> 
> Difficult enough for me a carefree singleton, there were thousands of middle aged labourers on similar money separated from their families by the cost of travel.
> 
> ...


I somewhat disagree with that - Ryanair originally were a full service pricey airline losing millions.  They had a last throw of the dice and sent O'leary to texas to see what southwest were doing and if it could work here. They simply copied what southwest were doing - Ryans gave o'leary just 12 months to make it work. Frankly,  the Ryan family were about to call it a day, but O'leary succeeded in turning it around very quickly. 


So, yes, O'leary brought the low cost model to Ireland,  but it would have come at some stage. - Maybe it meant 2-3 years earlier than it would have happened. 

What o'leary did do was to refuse to allow unions ruin the business and base staff around a 9-5 Monday to Friday with overtime for every minute outside those hours and overnight stays in 4 star hotels. That meant massive cost savings which led to low fares and profits.

Unions don't have the power they used to and whilst o'leary will talk to them, he will give very little and will find plenty of ways to undermine them.

As for the aer lingus pensions - blame the unions that would have no issue closing an airline in pursuit of their greed.


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## Leper (17 Dec 2017)

What's going on now between Ryanair and IMPACT union (and likely recognition of other trade unions to follow) is nothing short of a teenage girly dispute over something minor in a school yard. Mr O'Leary dug a hole for Ryanair and over the years continued to keep digging. He did this because he could and left no stone unturned in his rejection of any kind of union representation for his staff. All appeared to be working for him until somebody stood up to him. The pilots could and did. Cabin crew, ground staff etc were left to stew without recognition and when all is said they were weak and replaced almost at a whim. Many others left Ryanair not accepting Mr O'Leary's regime. 

So Ryanair couldn't meet the union last week and tried to defer the meeting to next Wednesday (remember I said this is like a teenage girly argument earlier). Suddenly, Ryanair "capitulates" and now we have a meeting a day earlier. Imagine Mr O'Leary comes to the table 24 hours earlier. Who is kidding whom here? Does the management in Ryanair suddenly think that all is now forgotten? The family of unions almost silenced for years (mainly because of the recession) are now trying to let the general workforce know that they are there for them. I should point out here that much of the workforce feel screwed because of concessions given by them in recent years to try and get Ireland Ltd back on its feet due to the greed of bankers none of whom were on bread and water for any relevant time. 

All anybody has got to do is look at some of the posts on this forum (even this thread) to see the amount of adversity towards people being represented by unions or even people wishing they were represented by trade unions. We need trade unions. Even Mr O'Leary needs trade unions. Mr O'Leary has built an empire (and deserves praise for this). He's clapped himself on the back more often than anybody I know.  Not too many people want to talk with Mr O'Leary now (bullies need to be bullied) and Mr O'Leary needs to talk to people. Mr O'Leary is a bully (a likeable celebrity bully, but a bully nonetheless). He will try to be brash, but deep down he knows the game is up and now he is trying to save face. If he has any sense (and I reckon he has some) he will try to get the unions on his side. It can be done, but Mr O'Leary will have to grow up and recognise that the workplace is not a school playground.


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## Purple (18 Dec 2017)

TheBigShort said:


> And the pilots who flew the planes, the cabin crew, baggage handlers and maintaineance staff.
> They all played their part in making it the sucess it is.


You're joking, right?


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## TheBigShort (18 Dec 2017)

Purple said:


> You're joking, right?




About what?


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## Purple (18 Dec 2017)

Leper said:


> The family of unions almost silenced for years (mainly because of the recession) are now trying to let the general workforce know that they are there for them.


 I see a business (or businesses) which has just got a whole load more customers. The only thing I'm not sure about is if Union members are the customer or the product. 



Leper said:


> All anybody has got to do is look at some of the posts on this forum (even this thread) to see the amount of adversity towards people being represented by unions or even people wishing they were represented by trade unions.


Ask yourself why so many people who the Unions seek to represent dislike them so much.



Leper said:


> We need trade unions.


 Why? Any time there is real abuse they are useless. Pushing the government around is easy since the people they are negotiating with are on the same Unions. 



Leper said:


> Mr O'Leary will have to grow up and recognise that the workplace is not a school playground.


 Agreed. Maybe the Unions will as well.


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## Purple (18 Dec 2017)

TheBigShort said:


> About what?


The comment you made. I asked you if that was a joke.
How can you not understand that? 

Here's how it works; if someone quotes a post and comments below it the comment is about the post they just quoted. Got it?


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## TheBigShort (18 Dec 2017)

Purple said:


> Here's how it works; if someone quotes a post and comments below it the comment is about the post they just quoted. Got it?



Ok, the milk in your cornflakes was a bit off this morning, was it? 

To answer your initial question - no.


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## Purple (18 Dec 2017)

TheBigShort said:


> Ok, the milk in your cornflakes was a bit off this morning, was it?
> 
> To answer your initial question - no.


No cornflakes this morning (too much sugar) but your constant habit deflecting by answering a question with a question is rather irksome.


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## michaelm (18 Dec 2017)

The pilots had O'Leary over a barrel and he knew it so accepted the inevitable (not entirely unlike O'Leary fleecing the disorganised people who turned up in his newsagents one Christmas morning desperate for batteries).   I'd say he'll pack it in after this and just go racing every day.  He has done very well for himself aping the Southwest model.





Purple said:


> Ask yourself why so many people who the Unions seek to represent dislike them so much.


I despise my union, and have opted out of the 'political contribution', but I view it as a necessary evil.





Purple said:


> Here's how it works; if someone quotes a post and comments below it the comment is about the post they just quoted. Got it?


Snappish .  Sugar gets a bad press.


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## Firefly (18 Dec 2017)

cremeegg said:


> Tony Ryan, Seamus Brennan and Michael O Leary changed all that.



Very true. Those at the top of organisations make the tough decisions and get most of the rewards. Whilst the workers are important they tend not to influence the direction of the company.


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## Purple (18 Dec 2017)

Fears Grow O’Leary May Be Planning ‘Red Wedding’ Style Event


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## Sunny (18 Dec 2017)

Firefly said:


> Very true. Those at the top of organisations make the tough decisions and get most of the rewards. Whilst the workers are important they tend not to influence the direction of the company.



Sorry but those at the top make very few ‘tough’ decisions. They simply make decisions and they are well paid for it. And some actually deserve it. It is this delusional thinking that got this country into a mess. People at the top of business are not some sort of amazing gurus. Name me the last executive that paid a price for a poor decision without walking away with huge payout? Making thousands of people redundant while making millions yourself is not tough. Telling cabin crew that they want to move country if they want to keep their job is not tough. Telling low paid cabin crew that they will not get shifts if they don’t sell enough lottery tickets on a flight is not tough. Telling low paid cabin crew that we will charge you for resigning is not tough. It is exploitation. 

Unions are bloody useless because they have their noses in the trough like everyone else but in this case I hope the staff of Ryanair take Michael O’Leary and his management team and their sneering condesending and disgusting attitude towards employees to the cleaners.


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## Deiseblue (19 Dec 2017)

Well in fairness it must be said that Luas ,  Iarnrod  Eireann , Dublin Bus ,  Aer Lingus , ESB , other semi states & Bank employees don’t  feel that Unions are useless , from a very localised point of view the Unions & their members here in Waterford are solely responsible for restoring the Waterford Glass pensions.
I’m equally sure that the majority of public sector workers are glad to see that earnings will , hopefully, soon return to pre recession levels .
On a personal level in Bank of Ireland I enjoyed a 32.5 hour working week with any overtime recorded & paid for , 29 days annual leave , a DB pension scheme & a generous salary - all negotiated & mutually agreed by my Union & employer .
The consensus would appear to be that you are far better to be in a Union than not - I’m sure that the vast majority of Ryanair employees Europe wide would agree.
Even michaelm above who despises his Union knows it’s a necessity to be a member.
The great thing about the Ryanair cave in is that it will encourage more workers to organise - after all if Ryanair are prepared to recognise Unions then why can’t we ?
Unions are only useless if they don’t deliver for their members but I think that Irish Unions conclusively do.


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## Leper (19 Dec 2017)

Purple is at it again, but to be fair to him he is consistent. I wish he were a GAA referee. And he does more to recruit members through his posts here for trade unions than anybody else I know. OK! Let's ban unions, close them down, cease to gather their membership fees and everything else. Ryanair went down this street and suddenly nobody is talking with the airline and the airline has nobody to talk to either. Ryanair now sees the unions (well, at least the pilots's union) the only solution to problems created by Mr O'Leary. This is only the start, the cabin crews are next, ground staff to follow and all-in-all a more customer friendly airline to follow.

Thank you Mr O'Leary and of course, Purple; unions who have been fighting a losing battle for recruiting members for years (they were losing members bigtime) are about to see an injection of more members. The unions will have to respond too and be seen to represent their members.


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## Purple (19 Dec 2017)

Deiseblue said:


> Well in fairness it must be said that Luas , Iarnrod Eireann , Dublin Bus , Aer Lingus , ESB , other semi states & Bank employees don’t feel that Unions are useless , from a very localised point of view the Unions & their members here in Waterford are solely responsible for restoring the Waterford Glass pensions.


See that's why most people don't like Unions; They see Luas , Iarnrod Eireann , Dublin Bus , Aer Lingus , ESB and other semi states exploiting their position of power to gain very high wages and engage in disputes over the most trivial of things at the expense of the general public. They see retired bank employees whose pensions were and are funded by high bank charges and the vastly reduced wages and T's & C's of new employees, they see Public Transport companies putting a gun to the head of the general public over and over again.
Then they see Ryan Air management and they just see two sides of the same coin.

See the Unions did do a very good job with the Waterford Crystal Pensions, though they were also instrumental in the company closing in the first place. The fact is that there are times when they are necessary but they are too busy being angry and ideological and pseudo-political to be useful most of the time.

Maybe a Union run by Leper would work as he sees that there are faults on both sides (maybe there shouldn't be any sides, just an aim to run businesses in a sane and calm and balanced way) but a Deiseblue Union, that would be a disaster as the gloating ideological selfishness of such a Union would be like the ones that destroyed the British Car industry in the 60's and 70's.


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## Purple (19 Dec 2017)

Leper said:


> Thank you Mr O'Leary and of course, Purple; unions who have been fighting a losing battle for recruiting members for years


Is that graph inversely proportional to the success of the Irish economy?


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## Sunny (19 Dec 2017)

Never been in a Union and never needed one. I might have had disagreements with my employers about terms and conditions but I never once felt that they were exploiting me. However, I do know what Ryanair staff have to put up and I also know what current Aer Lingus staff have to put up and I have to say the culture of airlines to their staff is rotten to the core. I am all for cost savings and being able to compete in a competitive industry but if you can’t do that while treating your staff with a basic level of dignity then you don’t deserve to be in business. Inviting people to a business update and then announcing that they were losing their jobs as Aer Lingus did recently is disgusting. Telling an employee that they can either move base to another country or lose their job with no consideration given to the cost or trauma is disgusting. Telling cabin crew that they are nothing more than sales people and waitresses and belittling them while expecting them to know how to save someone’s life, put out fires, restrain drunk violent passengers is disgusting. Telling pilots they have an easy job is disgusting. No job is easy and anybody who does any sort of job to provide for their family deserve respect. Ryanair have never shown any and always seemed to treat their employees as nothing more than machine parts. So in this case, I will make an exception and welcome trade union involvement to give employees a voice. I wish them well.


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## Purple (19 Dec 2017)

Sunny said:


> Never been in a Union and never needed one. I might have had disagreements with my employers about terms and conditions but I never once felt that they were exploiting me. However, I do know what Ryanair staff have to put up and I also know what current Aer Lingus staff have to put up and I have to say the culture of airlines to their staff is rotten to the core. I am all for cost savings and being able to compete in a competitive industry but if you can’t do that while treating your staff with a basic level of dignity then you don’t deserve to be in business. Inviting people to a business update and then announcing that they were losing their jobs as Aer Lingus did recently is disgusting. Telling an employee that they can either move base to another country or lose their job with no consideration given to the cost or trauma is disgusting. Telling cabin crew that they are nothing more than sales people and waitresses and belittling them while expecting them to know how to save someone’s life, put out fires, restrain drunk violent passengers is disgusting. Telling pilots they have an easy job is disgusting. No job is easy and anybody who does any sort of job to provide for their family deserve respect. Ryanair have never shown any and always seemed to treat their employees as nothing more than machine parts. So in this case, I will make an exception and welcome trade union involvement to give employees a voice. I wish them well.


I agree Sunny, with the reservation that I hope the Unions don't close the business like they have so many others.


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## Leper (19 Dec 2017)

Purple said:


> I agree Sunny, with the reservation that I hope the Unions don't close the business like they have so many others.



It's the union that is keeping Ryanair flying these days. No Unions, No Fights, No Flights. Talk is preferable to the alternative.


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## Firefly (19 Dec 2017)

Sunny said:


> Sorry but those at the top make very few ‘tough’ decisions.



Hi,

Usually those at the top have the most to lose, in the case of Ryanair, the Ryan family would have lost a considerable amount on their investment. I agree that a lot of top executives often get away with a fortune even if they mess up. It's the owners I am referring to.


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## Firefly (19 Dec 2017)

Deiseblue said:


> Well in fairness it must be said that Luas ,  Iarnrod  Eireann , Dublin Bus ,  Aer Lingus , ESB , other semi states & Bank employees don’t  feel that Unions are useless , from a very localised point of view the Unions & their members here in Waterford are solely responsible for restoring the Waterford Glass pensions.



Hi Deise,

I note from your posts that you time & again _only_ relate to what's good for the employee. There are two other sides to the triangle, the owners and the customer. The customer is by far and away the most important. Without customers you cannot have owners and without owners you cannot have employees. 

If you look at the restrictive work practices across many of our mature organisations you will see how badly this affects the customer. Some organisations seem to be run for the benefit of the staff rather than the customer. I note you mentioned Waterford Crystal. Yes, the unions helped the pensioners, but look at all the jobs that were moved to eastern Europe whilst the company was still trading - do you think the cost of labour and terms & conditions had anything to do with it?

We have strong employment law and a high minimum wage. I cannot see any reason for a union, but to obtain pay/terms for employees that are not available in the wider market.

Firefly.


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## Deiseblue (19 Dec 2017)

Firefly , I can only reiteratethe primary function of Trade Unions which is to protect & enhance where possible  the terms and conditions of it's members , one man's restrictive practises are another man's hard fought for terms & conditions
As for the Glass it's demise was purely due to market forces - the demand for luxury items plummeted in the US allied to the appalling management decision to invest in Wedgewood , I felt really sorry for Tony O'Reilly who lost countless millions.
As for strong employment law I think I'm right in saying that Ryanair were able to bypass such legislation for decades.
You're surely not telling me that our employment laws would have ultimately had the same effect as Trade Unions in negotiating pay increases for Luas , Dublin bus & Iarnrod Eireann employees as well as ameliorating the pay cuts suffered by public sector employees , I would suggest that such a viewpoint is more than a trifle naive.
I wonder how the meeting with Impact ( surely not the most appropriate name for an organisation representing pilots ! ) is going ?


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## cremeegg (19 Dec 2017)

Deiseblue said:


> Impact ( surely not the most appropriate name for an organisation representing pilots ! )



Post of the week.


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## Firefly (19 Dec 2017)

Deiseblue said:


> I can only reiteratethe primary function of Trade Unions which is to protect & enhance where possible  the terms and conditions of it's members


A agree with that and it's why I'm usually sceptical when I hear unions wanting this or that to improve the lot for the customer.



Deiseblue said:


> You're surely not telling me that our employment laws would have ultimately had the same effect as Trade Unions in negotiating pay increases for Luas , Dublin bus & Iarnrod Eireann employees as well as ameliorating the pay cuts suffered by public sector employees , I would suggest that such a viewpoint is more than a trifle naive.


I am not and as you say, because of unions wages are higher than they otherwise would be. The point I am making is that these higher wages have to be paid by someone...either the owner gets  a lower return (and may have to reduce staff / staff hours, relocate or close down) or the customer pays through higher prices / lower services.

I'm not arguing that people shouldn't get a fair wage. I am arguing that a fair wage is the market rate.


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## Sunny (19 Dec 2017)

Firefly said:


> A agree with that and it's why I'm usually sceptical when I hear unions wanting this or that to improve the lot for the customer.
> 
> 
> I am not and as you say, because of unions wages are higher than they otherwise would be. The point I am making is that these higher wages have to be paid by someone...either the owner gets  a lower return (and may have to reduce staff / staff hours, relocate or close down) or the customer pays through higher prices / lower services.
> ...



You are assuming this is about wages but it’s not. Ryanair already tried buying off staff and failed. This is about years and years of disgraceful work practices, taking advantage of European legislation, treating employees like nothing more than parts and a sneering disrespectful attitude by their CEO and management team who thinks his employees should be lighting candles and worshiping him for their amazing jobs. So Suck on it Michael O’Leary. You aren’t exactly rushing to do media interviews now are you. And by the way I think Ryanair and Michael O’Leary are an amazing story but somewhere along the way they decided that their staff didn’t deserve respect. Well as I said earlier, everybody doing any sort of job deserves some respect and not to have to their efforts belittled.


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## Leper (19 Dec 2017)

I've heard it all now . . . . the unions are closing businesses. Great way to lose membership and loss to union coffers. Trade Unions are not self destructive, you know. Make no mistake about it . . . . Bad Management closes businesses. Bad managers blame the unions.


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## Firefly (20 Dec 2017)

Sunny said:


> You are assuming this is about wages but it’s not. Ryanair already tried buying off staff and failed. This is about years and years of disgraceful work practices, taking advantage of European legislation, treating employees like nothing more than parts


Would you have a link for this?




Sunny said:


> a sneering disrespectful attitude by their CEO and management team





Sunny said:


> So Suck on it Michael O’Leary



Pot / Kettle perhaps?



Sunny said:


> everybody doing any sort of job deserves some respect and not to have to their efforts belittled.



I agree. I think it's in the best interests of everyone concerned if the workers are treated correctly.


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## Firefly (20 Dec 2017)

Leper said:


> I've heard it all now . . . . the unions are closing businesses.


Hi Leper,

You are taking it out of context - I said "and may have to reduce staff / staff hours, relocate or close down". Closing down is always is the last resort. 

Firefly.


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## Deiseblue (20 Dec 2017)

In the context of working conditions two UK parliamentary committees are now going to investigate following damning allegations over employee working conditions.


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## Firefly (20 Dec 2017)

Deiseblue said:


> In the context of working conditions two UK parliamentary committees are now going to investigate following damning allegations over employee working conditions.



I'm glad to hear this to be honest. Again though, this will be conducted on legal grounds I would imagine and that's why employment law is so important.


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## Purple (20 Dec 2017)

Leper said:


> I've heard it all now . . . . the unions are closing businesses.


 Waterford Crystal closed because it couldn't react to changing market forces. That was largely due to Union intransigence and massively high wages. When the same thing happened to Newbridge Silver they could react and transformed their business.
I have seen competitors close because of the unwillingness of unionised employees to embrace new technology as my industry moved from manual to computerised manufacturing. Team Aerlingus closed because of the Unions. 



Leper said:


> Trade Unions are not self destructive, you know.


 Really? Is that why so few people in the private sector are in one?




Leper said:


> Make no mistake about it . . . . Bad Management closes businesses. Bad managers blame the unions.


 That's true but universally true; unions also close businesses. Weak management which is bullied by unions make decisions which close businesses as well.


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## Sunny (20 Dec 2017)

Firefly said:


> I'm glad to hear this to be honest. Again though, this will be conducted on legal grounds I would imagine and that's why employment law is so important.



Just because something might be legal doesn't make it morally right or acceptable. Employment law like tax law will never be able to cover all scenarios of people trying to take advantage. Look at how the employees and concession holders in Cleary's were treated when that was closed down. Telling cabin crew that they if want to be paid for the winter, they will have to move to a different country at their own expense isn't right but they are entitled to do it. Telling staff that they will charged an 'administration fee' for resigning is not right. Charging staff for airport ID's is not right. Not paying staff for working but not in the air is not right. Zero hour contracts are not right. Putting crews working away from their home base up in crappy hotels that they often have to organise themselves is not right. Threatening staff who don't sell enough is not right unless they are employed as sales people but they are not.

I was on a flight recently to the West Coast of the USA so obviously not Ryanair so all airlines are the same. The cabin crew were forced to eat their food during their break either standing up in the galley or sitting out on the crew seats in front of all the passengers as the airline had removed all the crew seating from the galley area. That is just a complete lack of respect and common decency. It's not even about money. The money they saved in fuel won't make a difference to the airfare charged. It is just an example of a company that thinks so little of their staff that they think they can treat them with such contempt.


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## Firefly (20 Dec 2017)

Sunny said:


> I was on a flight recently to the West Coast of the USA so obviously not Ryanair so all airlines are the same. The cabin crew were forced to eat their food during their break either standing up in the galley or sitting out on the crew seats in front of all the passengers as the airline had removed all the crew seating from the galley area. That is just a complete lack of respect and common decency. It's not even about money. The money they saved in fuel won't make a difference to the airfare charged. It is just an example of a company that thinks so little of their staff that they think they can treat them with such contempt.



Would you mind naming the airline in question?


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## Deiseblue (6 Jun 2018)

Ryanair sign up to cabin crew Union recognition in Italy .
Augurs well for widespread Union recognition within the company


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## Firefly (6 Jun 2018)

Deiseblue said:


> Ryanair sign up to cabin crew Union recognition in Italy .
> Augurs well for widespread Union recognition within the company



I'm happy for them to do whatever it takes to avoid a strike until I get back from the south of France


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## Sunny (6 Jun 2018)

Firefly said:


> I'm happy for them to do whatever it takes to avoid a strike until I get back from the south of France



Ah yes but it is the French Air Traffic controllers you need to worry about!!


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## Firefly (6 Jun 2018)

Sunny said:


> Ah yes but it is the French Air Traffic controllers you need to worry about!!



Very true. Remember when I was a kid we had to drive back from the Med to Roscoff via the Massif Central as the truckers were on strike and blocked the motorways....Plus ca change!


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## Deiseblue (30 Aug 2018)

Great to hear that directly employed cabin crew in Ireland are to be represented by Fórsa and Ryanair recognize Fórsa as being such employees representatives.
Baggage handlers next hopefully


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