# 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is broke.



## Mpsox (28 Jan 2010)

For a number of reasons I had to go and get the swine flu injection today at my local vaccination centre in my local HSE centre. 

On arrival, I was given a simple form to fill out by a very efficient and polite member of staff who was very helpful with anyone having issues. The form was very straightforward. From there I was taken to another room where another member of staff inputted the form onto a PC, wrote a reference number on it and then send me to the nurse who gave me the jab. I then had to wait 15 mins to see if I had a negative reaction, give my form to one of 3 other staff sitting at laptops in that waiting room who filled out a simple 5 line card and gave it back to me when my 15 minutes were up

Thinking about it going home (I'm an operations manager), it took 5 staff to "manage" the bureaucracy of a nurse giving the flu jab. I'm not giving out about the staff involved and this is not a public sector staff bashing post. They were all very nice, helpful and professional in all that they did, but 5 staff and 4 laptops to manage a queue of around a dozen people and manage the inputting of around 15 lines of data per person?

Simple things, (pre-print the reference number on the forms for example) could have eliminated chunks of this and if I had been asked to size this as a piece of business for tender, I'd have done it as a nurse and 2 staff at most 

If we assume for a second that the average pay of each bureaucrat was €25k, then including fringe and ancillary costs, it's costing the state at least €150kpa to administer the delivery of the flu jab in a small country town. Note this is just to administer it, not to actually stick the needle in.

HSE management have a lot to answer for as far as I am concerned, they are throwing our money away


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## Purple (28 Jan 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*

My wife is a GP. There is one full time and two part time doctors in her practice as well as one practice nurse (part time), so that’s two and a half “healthcare professionals”. For that they have tow clerical/receptionist support staff. They do all data input, day to day accounts, answer the phones, liaise with the HSE etc. 
In a private practice there would be a maximum of one bureaucrat/ clerical person doing the job of the 5 people you met today. Since margins are quite high amongst doctors they are not overly efficient so even at that I’m sure there is plenty of room for improvement.


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## Towger (28 Jan 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*

Several years ago I did some work for a section of our 'local government' as they could (not bothered to read the manual and give it ago) do to it them selves. To cut a long story short they had 12 people doing basically the exact same job as me, for less 'customers'.


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## PyritePete (28 Jan 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*

4 in HSE Clinic in Celbridge a few weeks back (not including 1 employee behind reception counter) 1 lady to return form back to, 1 doctor/nurse who gave jab and 2 nurses checking on patients post-jab. 

In fairness the place was jammed that day


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## Leper (28 Jan 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*

I think I can answer each question as I am one of those who works in the Swine Flu Clinics.

The clinics can be extremely busy. The actual jab while administered with a medic with qualifications is the easy bit, although for obvious reasons most talked about.

None of the staff in the clinics can say how many people will arrive at any one time. I experienced several hundred people arriving almost together and most had no appointment. Such is the nature of the beast. I am not saying that Crowd Control is necessary, but people want to pass through quickly and efficiently.

It is not a case of just giving everybody who shows up the jab. Each jab must be recorded. This is a Swine Flu jab not a prick from a safety pin. There can be serious consequences.

I think I have answered the general point. Now, let me have a rant of my own and in support of the much maligned public service backroom brigade. 

(a) I have to travel to the Clinic at my own expense. I use my car, but have to claim the minimum bus-fare to the destination as I do not get petrol or mileage expenses.

(b) My attendance at the clinic is not voluntary - I am instructed to attend and must attend. When I return to my permanent place of work I am behind in my work due to attending the clinics. I must make up for lost time at my own effort i.e no overtime etc. Medical Staff return to their permanent place of work and do not have to wade through arrears.

(c) The medical staff at the clinics are paid full subsistence for the day. I am not. They can claim for using their cars. Surely, a case of discrimination? But, no - I am support staff and can go an whistle Dixie.

There is no doubt, the Medics are the stars of the show - the support staff while they work their buts off (and without any thanks) are never recognised until something goes wrong.


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## Complainer (31 Jan 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*

I know it wasn't intended as such, but this really is more public sector bashing. 

Firstly, why are the admin staff suddenly 'bureaucrats'? You said yourself that these were "all very nice, helpful and professional", so why bash them as bureaucrats? They are really just clerical staff.

Secondly, of the five clerical staff that you moan about, two had nothing to do with you. There happened to be three staff ready to deal with customers, one of whom dealt with you. So pull back on your moaning by 40%.

Thirdly, there may well be a very good reason for non pre-printing the reference number on the paper form. Perhaps the reference number is related to the particular unit of vaccine that you were given. I can't be sure of this, of course, but neither can you - so don't be so quick to criticise when you really don't know what's going on.

I could do the same kind of moaning about most of my visits to Superquinn or Tesco, or most of my visits to my bank or insurance company, or most of my visits to the local hardware shop. All of these places have processes that could be improved, but being imperfect organisations with imperfect people, they are not perfect.

I'd love the see the queue with your 'nurse and two staff' when 15 people turn up at the same time for vaccination.


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## DonKing (1 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*



Complainer said:


> I know it wasn't intended as such, but this really is more public sector bashing.



No it's not. Most people just want to see an efficient public sector and are frustrated when they see bad work practices. Even the public sector unions have admitted that there's plenty of room for improvement and reform.  So lets get going with the reform!!


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## Purple (2 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*



DonKing said:


> No it's not. Most people just want to see an efficient public sector and are frustrated when they see bad work practices. Even the public sector unions have admitted that there's plenty of room for improvement and reform.  So lets get going with the reform!!



You may as well be talking the wall.


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## Bronte (2 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*



Complainer said:


> I know it wasn't intended as such, but this really is more public sector bashing.
> 
> Firstly, why are the admin staff suddenly 'bureaucrats'? You said yourself that these were "all very nice, helpful and professional", so why bash them as bureaucrats? They are really just clerical staff.
> 
> ...


 
This is a perfect example of a bureaucrat justifying bureaucracy.


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## Mpsox (2 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*



Complainer said:


> I know it wasn't intended as such, but this really is more public sector bashing.
> 
> Firstly, why are the admin staff suddenly 'bureaucrats'? You said yourself that these were "all very nice, helpful and professional", so why bash them as bureaucrats? They are really just clerical staff.
> 
> ...


 
Firstly I made it quite clear in my post that my issue was not with the staff concerned, it was with their management who had designed this operation. 

Secondly, I simply pointed out that as someone who manages operations for a living, I could see simple ways in which the process could be improved. I simply do not understand why it took 4 people on laptops to input data onto a system to produce a hand writen 6 inch square piece of paper. I run a data processing centre and based on the form concerned, I estimate it would take one of my staff 75 seconds to input the data on it and another 30 seconds to produce the relevant card

I fully agree with you that there are plenty of inefficiencies in the private sector, I've no doubt that if you came into my organisation and looked at things with an outside eye you would see things that I have missed. However my post was not about the private sector, it was about the HSE. Feel free to raise posts about inefficiences in the private sector if you want to. 

The public sector is not perfect, I'm disappointed that you cannot take constructive criticism for what it is.


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## Purple (2 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*



Bronte said:


> This is a perfect example of a bureaucrat justifying bureaucracy.



I wish I'd said that!


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## Complainer (2 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*



Bronte said:


> This is a perfect example of a bureaucrat justifying bureaucracy.


Pity that you can't express a relevant opinion without resorting to namecalling.



DonKing said:


> No it's not. Most people just want to see an efficient public sector and are frustrated when they see bad work practices. Even the public sector unions have admitted that there's plenty of room for improvement and reform.  So lets get going with the reform!!


There is no question of 'admitting' that there is plenty of room for improvement and reform. Of course there is plenty of room for improvement and reform in every organisation, public and private. Reform is a continuous process, and is never finished. There is no evidence of bad work practices from this post - just 'hurler on the ditch' opinions from someone who doesn't actually know what is going on.



Mpsox said:


> Firstly I made it quite clear in my post that my issue was not with the staff concerned, it was with their management who had designed this operation.


Management are people too, generally hard-working, concientious and professional people who do the best they can with the resources available to them. Generally, they know a bit more about the job in question than spectators, who breeze through for a minute or two and convince themselves that they are experts in healthcare.



Mpsox said:


> Secondly, I simply pointed out that as someone who manages operations for a living, I could see simple ways in which the process could be improved. I simply do not understand why it took 4 people on laptops to input data onto a system to produce a hand writen 6 inch square piece of paper. I run a data processing centre and based on the form concerned, I estimate it would take one of my staff 75 seconds to input the data on it and another 30 seconds to produce the relevant card


If you really do want to be constructive, stop exaggerating. It did not take four people to deal with you. Stick to the facts.



Mpsox said:


> The public sector is not perfect, I'm disappointed that you cannot take constructive criticism for what it is.


Indeed, the public sector like any organisation is not perfect and there is lots of room for improvement. I recognise constructive criticism when I see it, and this was not constructive. Try again without using derogatory terms like 'bureaucrats', without exaggerating the number of people involved, and when you actually understand what the form in question does, what systems are being used, what data is being validated etc etc. Then it just might be constructive.

At present, this is just 'hurler on the ditch' moaning, and of no constructive value.


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## Purple (2 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*

Can we take it that Complainer is an expert in the area of healthcare administration, since he deems himself qualified to not only rebut criticism of healthcare administrative practices from other posters but adjudicate whether such criticisms are constructive or not?
Mrs Purple is a doctor and has worked in both the public and private sectors of the health service and she agreed completely with the Mpsox’s first post when I showed it to her.

She’s be very disappointed when I show her Complainers post and she discovers that she doesn’t know what she’s talking about...


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## Towger (2 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*

Nope, but as it is more his area of expertise can he expain how it costs over 500k a year to run the motor tax renewal website while his local 'family run' [broken link removed] can operate a site of similar (arguably more) complex site for a fraction of the money?


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## Mpsox (2 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*



Complainer said:


> Pity that you can't express a relevant opinion without resorting to namecalling.
> 
> 
> There is no question of 'admitting' that there is plenty of room for improvement and reform. Of course there is plenty of room for improvement and reform in every organisation, public and private. Reform is a continuous process, and is never finished. There is no evidence of bad work practices from this post - just 'hurler on the ditch' opinions from someone who doesn't actually know what is going on.
> ...


 
So let's deal with facts then

Fact 1. Person 1 who I dealt with was the receptionist giving out the forms and managing the queue

Fact 2. The 2nd person I dealt with was the person who I gave the completed form to who input the details onto one laptop in one room. The form comprised my name, address, contact number, next of kin and their contact number. 

Fact 3. The 3rd person I dealt with was the nurse

Fact 4. The 4th person I dealt with was the person I dealt with in the waiting room who filled out the relevant handwritten card that I was given

Therefore it took 4 people to deal with me end to end. Those are facts.

The other 2 people sitting there in the waiting room were dealing with the 12 people (I counted them) who were given the injection in the 30 minutes or so I was waiting for. In effect, the last 3 people were processing an average of 1 person every 10 minutes. The card they gave me has only a few words to be filled in by hand

Can I just also say how absolutely delighted I am that you see there is room for improvement in the public sector. Perhaps you could make some constructive suggestions and I am sure lots of posters here would be glad to share their views

Lastly I have never said I was an expert in health care. However I am an expert in data management and back office processing (including in the health area)  and I stand over my belief that the process was inefficent.


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## becky (2 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*

I got my swine flu jab in my workplace.  There were no admin staff at the clinic, one doctor and three nurses.  I filled out my form and the nurse put a sticker on the form and gave me a card with a batch number on it.  It took me 10 minutes but I didn't hang around afterwards. 

I heard that 300 people were dealt with that morning.  Now, while I don't have access to the data there were about 20 people waiting when I arrived and left.


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## Firefly (2 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*



becky said:


> I got my swine flu jab in my workplace. There were no admin staff at the clinic, one doctor and three nurses. I filled out my form and the nurse put a sticker on the form and gave me a card with a batch number on it. It took me 10 minutes but I didn't hang around afterwards.
> 
> I heard that 300 people were dealt with that morning. Now, while I don't have access to the data there were about 20 people waiting when I arrived and left.


 
That sounds more like it


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## Firefly (2 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*



becky said:


> I got my swine flu jab in my workplace. There were no admin staff at the clinic, one doctor and three nurses. I filled out my form and the nurse put a sticker on the form and gave me a card with a batch number on it. It took me 10 minutes but I didn't hang around afterwards.
> 
> I heard that 300 people were dealt with that morning. Now, while I don't have access to the data there were about 20 people waiting when I arrived and left.


 
Do you have any info on how this was organised? Did the HSE drive this by contacting your employer, or did you employer contact a GP service etc?


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## Complainer (2 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*



Towger said:


> Nope, but as it is more his area of expertise can he expain how it costs over 500k a year to run the motor tax renewal website while his local 'family run' [broken link removed] can operate a site of similar (arguably more) complex site for a fraction of the money?



If you want me to be the sole defender of the public sector, you'll really have to start paying for this service. If you are genuinely interested in this issue, you might have to do a bit of digging yourself and see what is behind these costs. It might help though if you start comparing like with like. I really doubt if the Ormonde get 4 million unique visitors per annum? Funnily enough, the first page on the Ormonde site that I opened (http://www.onlinecinematickets.com/index.php?s=ORMONDE&p=tickets&perfCode=47463) is broken, with no option to enter the number of tickets required. The HTML has a huge number of failures on the WCAG validator, and there a loads of missing discriptive texts for the images used. Are you sure you want to hold this up as an example of shining private sector effeciency?



Mpsox said:


> Fact 1. Person 1 who I dealt with was the receptionist giving out the forms and managing the queue
> 
> Fact 2. The 2nd person I dealt with was the person who I gave the completed form to who input the details onto one laptop in one room. The form comprised my name, address, contact number, next of kin and their contact number.
> 
> ...


OK, so it wasn't the '5 people and 4 laptops' of your original rant? Nice to see that we are getting closer to the truth now.



Mpsox said:


> Can I just also say how absolutely delighted I am that you see there is room for improvement in the public sector. Perhaps you could make some constructive suggestions and I am sure lots of posters here would be glad to share their views


I've explained on several other threads why this would be a pointless exercise, and indeed, the level of analysis on this thread confirms my view on this. We might as well as posters to share their views on getting to the moon or curing cancer.




Mpsox said:


> Lastly I have never said I was an expert in health care. However I am an expert in data management and back office processing (including in the health area) and I stand over my belief that the process was inefficent.


Do you exercise this kind of 'drive by management' in your day job, where you come to definite conclusions about the effeciency of a process from a single user experience?


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## Purple (2 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*



Complainer said:


> We might as well as posters to share their views on getting to the moon or curing cancer.


I don’t think public service reform is as difficult as space travel or curing cancer. I’m not sure others think so either.


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## Mpsox (2 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*



Complainer said:


> OK, so it wasn't the '5 people and 4 laptops' of your original rant? Nice to see that we are getting closer to the truth now.


 
No, it was 4 people with 2 laptops and 2 other people with laptops doing work that could also easily and efficiently be done by any of the other 2 people who also had laptops. That's the truth


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## Mpsox (2 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*



Complainer said:


> Do you exercise this kind of 'drive by management' in your day job, where you come to definite conclusions about the effeciency of a process from a single user experience?


 
If I see a duck waddling down the road and it looks like a duck, waddles like a duck and quacks like a duck then I don't need to examine it in 50 different ways and a hundred different times to know that it is, in all probability, a duck


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## Latrade (2 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*



becky said:


> I got my swine flu jab in my workplace. There were no admin staff at the clinic, one doctor and three nurses. I filled out my form and the nurse put a sticker on the form and gave me a card with a batch number on it. It took me 10 minutes but I didn't hang around afterwards.
> 
> I heard that 300 people were dealt with that morning. Now, while I don't have access to the data there were about 20 people waiting when I arrived and left.


 
Just to add some fuel, but not to defend the HSE, it's not the same circumstances. Mainly because it's a more controlled environment where you know the flow or at least have a steady flow of people. In the public centres it could be 1 person turns up, it could be 100. 

It would have been difficult to predict the demand at the public centres, so I do have some sympathy.

Employers can engage in the vaccination programme, but they would need to contact an occupational physician rather than the HSE.


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## Complainer (2 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*



Mpsox said:


> No, it was 4 people with 2 laptops and 2 other people with laptops doing work that could also easily and efficiently be done by any of the other 2 people who also had laptops. That's the truth


I must share these pearls of wisdom with my local Tesco/bank/coffee shop. They often have multiple people doing front of house work, but when I walk past, I reckon they really just need 2 people. Easy, isn't it?



Mpsox said:


> If I see a duck waddling down the road and it looks like a duck, waddles like a duck and quacks like a duck then I don't need to examine it in 50 different ways and a hundred different times to know that it is, in all probability, a duck


True, you don't need to examine it in 50 different ways and a hundred different times. One examination would be enough. But you didnt do an examination. You did an experience. An examination would need some behind-the-scenes knowledge, which you don't have.



Latrade said:


> but not to defend the HSE


Ah go on - give it a try - just once. It doesn't hurt.


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## Firefly (2 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*



Latrade said:


> It would have been difficult to predict the demand at the public centres, so I do have some sympathy.
> 
> 
> Employers can engage in the vaccination programme, but they would need to contact an occupational physician rather than the HSE.


 
_After the initial demand was met I would have thought demand for the service would have been reasonably easy to determine, esp given that there are so many centres set up and the data so fresh?_


_Looks like a private job then_


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## Purple (2 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*



Complainer said:


> I must share these pearls of wisdom with my local Tesco/bank/coffee shop. They often have multiple people doing front of house work, but when I walk past, I reckon they really just need 2 people. Easy, isn't it?
> 
> 
> True, you don't need to examine it in 50 different ways and a hundred different times. One examination would be enough. But you didnt do an examination. You did an experience. An examination would need some behind-the-scenes knowledge, which you don't have.
> ...



You consistently argue that posters are not knowledgeable enough to criticise the HSE (or any public sector organisation). That’s fair enough but by the same standard you are not knowledgeable enough to defend them. The same argument can be made to counter criticism of any business, state body, politician or organisation.  

Maybe we should all just shrug our shoulders, keep our heads down and not comment on our betters. The last think this country needs is the public casting a critical eye over the institutions of state and their related organisations.


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## Firefly (2 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*



Complainer said:


> I've explained on several other threads why this would be a pointless exercise,


 
Have I this right correct - you say in the public sector "there is lots of room for improvement" but making any constructive suggestions would be a pointless exercise?


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## Latrade (2 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*



Firefly said:


> After the initial demand was met I would have thought demand for the service would have been reasonably easy to determine, esp given that there are so many centres set up and the data so fresh?


 
Well we don't know do we? This was one visit by one person at one point in time. An hour later it might have been chock full in there justifying the staff. 

From the HSE point of view, you've a certain population who may turn up for the vaccine. You don't know when, you don't know where. You have to allocate resources to each centre in advance in order to get them set up. 



Complainer said:


> Ah go on - give it a try - just once. It doesn't hurt.


 
Having just taken the quote out of context it's far too suggestive for me to even begin to reply to. 

Until the HSE meets my expectations of a health service being based on my extensive research of Carry on Doctor and Greys Anatomy, I will never defend it.


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## Firefly (2 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*



Latrade said:


> Well we don't know do we? This was one visit by one person at one point in time. An hour later it might have been chock full in there justifying the staff.


 
I see your point, but, given that this is running for months now, they should have a general idea of likely demand. 5 staff for 12 patients seems excessive to me. 

Also, as we are not dealing with repeat customers, with so many already having received their jabs, perhaps they should be scalling down the number of staff or consolidate etc?


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## Mpsox (2 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*



Firefly said:


> I see your point, but, given that this is running for months now, they should have a general idea of likely demand. 5 staff for 12 patients seems excessive to me.
> 
> Also, as we are not dealing with repeat customers, with so many already having received their jabs, perhaps they should be scalling down the number of staff or consolidate etc?


 
I booked my appointment on line using a simple web site. When I booked mine the night before there was plenty of available spaces on there accross the day. Therefore it should be relatively straight forward to forecast demand within certain parameters and staff accordingly. 

I accept there may have been a rush when the vacination was originally offered but try turing up at any other clinic in the HSE without an appointment and see how far you get. This could and should have been controlled better.

I do believe that some element of the resources used should be redeployed at this stage


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## Complainer (2 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*



Firefly said:


> Have I this right correct - you say in the public sector "there is lots of room for improvement" but making any constructive suggestions would be a pointless exercise?


Absolutely.

Just like constructive suggestions about how to design a new Toyota, or how to manage a hedge fund, or how to build a football stadium would be a pointless exercise.  There are two main reasons for this;

1) The people making the suggestions are speaking from a position of ignorance, in the literal sense of the word. They are outsiders to the business in question, just as I am an outside to drugs research or car design. They don't understand the legal obgliations, the political (big P and small p) environment, the resource constraints of the business in question. 
2) Even if AAM comes up with the 'magic bullet' solution to 'fix' the public sector, what's gonna happen with it.

We had the PR high-profile 'Ideas Campaign' earlier in the year, which produced a load of hot air, and some PR profile for the players involved.


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## Mpsox (2 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*



Complainer said:


> True, you don't need to examine it in 50 different ways and a hundred different times. One examination would be enough. But you didnt do an examination. You did an experience. An examination would need some behind-the-scenes knowledge, which you don't have.


 
Actually I have 20 years of data management experience and I don't need to be a qualifed doctor to know that it only takes a few seconds to process a one page form with a minimum amount of basic data on it.


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## becky (2 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*



Firefly said:


> Do you have any info on how this was organised? Did the HSE drive this by contacting your employer, or did you employer contact a GP service etc?


 
I work in the HSE.  There was a committee set up to orgianise it.


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## Mpsox (2 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*



Complainer said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> Just like constructive suggestions about how to design a new Toyota, or how to manage a hedge fund, or how to build a football stadium would be a pointless exercise. There are two main reasons for this;
> 
> ...


 
So in other words, the only people who know how to improve the public sector are..... the public sector. The rest of us don't have any knowledge, skills, experience, ideas or suggestions that in any way shape of from could contribute to the debate. Am I correct in my understanding of what you are saying?


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## Firefly (2 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*



Complainer said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> Just like constructive suggestions about how to design a new Toyota, or how to manage a hedge fund, or how to build a football stadium would be a pointless exercise. There are two main reasons for this;
> 
> ...


 
The difference is that you work in the PS and agree improvements could be made but think suggesting these would be pointless. That's much different to someone with no inner workings of something suggesting improvements.


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## Firefly (2 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*



becky said:


> I work in the HSE. There was a committee set up to orgianise it.


 
How do you know which employer the OP was referring to?


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## becky (2 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*



Firefly said:


> How do you know which employer the OP was referring to?


 
My understanding was the OP was a member of the public who attended a HSE run clinic for the general public.  

I was simply adding that there were clinics run by the HSE without the need for 5 admin staff.


----------



## Complainer (2 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*



Mpsox said:


> So in other words, the only people who know how to improve the public sector are..... the public sector. The rest of us don't have any knowledge, skills, experience, ideas or suggestions that in any way shape of from could contribute to the debate. Am I correct in my understanding of what you are saying?



Would you be surprised if I suggested that the best people to improve drug design processes are drug designers, or the best people to improve car design processes are car designers? What is it about public services that makes people think it is a spectator sport? Rants on AAM are not 'contribution to the debate'. They are rants on a bulletin board. 



Firefly said:


> The difference is that you work in the PS and agree improvements could be made but think suggesting these would be pointless. That's much different to someone with no inner workings of something suggesting improvements.


Just to be clear, I am pointing out that suggesting improvements to the public sector *here on AAM* is a pointless exercise, given the low level of understanding of public services that is repeatedly demonstrated on these thread.



Mpsox said:


> Actually I have 20 years of data management experience and I don't need to be a qualifed doctor to know that it only takes a few seconds to process a one page form with a minimum amount of basic data on it.


Actually, I have 28 years experience in data management, so nah-na-na-nah-nah. I know enough to know that you don't reengineer a process based on one user experience.


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## Firefly (2 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*



becky said:


> I was simply adding that there were clinics run by the HSE without the need for 5 admin staff.


 
Perfect, thanks for that.


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## Complainer (2 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*



becky said:


> I got my swine flu jab in my workplace. There were no admin staff at the clinic, one doctor and three nurses. I filled out my form and the nurse put a sticker on the form and gave me a card with a batch number on it. It took me 10 minutes but I didn't hang around afterwards.
> 
> I heard that 300 people were dealt with that morning. Now, while I don't have access to the data there were about 20 people waiting when I arrived and left.





Firefly said:


> That sounds more like it





becky said:


> I work in the HSE.  There was a committee set up to orgianise it.


Beautiful!


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## Firefly (2 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*



Complainer said:


> Beautiful!


 
I agree - this looks like a well run operation. How do we reconcile that with the original posters experience of "it took 5 staff to "manage" the bureaucracy of a nurse giving the flu jab" in her appointment? Hardly a consistent delivery of service is it?


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## Complainer (2 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*



Firefly said:


> How do we reconcile that with the original posters experience of "it took 5 staff to "manage" the bureaucracy of a nurse giving the flu jab" in her appointment?


Have you being paying attention on this thread at all? There wasn't 5 staff and there wasn't a bureacracy. I guess it proves what they say about the smelly stuff sticking, if you throw enough of it.


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## Mpsox (2 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*



Complainer said:


> Actually, I have 28 years experience in data management, so nah-na-na-nah-nah. I know enough to know that you don't reengineer a process based on one user experience.


 
Suddenly the reluctance to reform in the public sector all makes sense


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## Firefly (2 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*



Complainer said:


> Have you being paying attention on this thread at all? There wasn't 5 staff and there wasn't a bureacracy. I guess it proves what they say about the smelly stuff sticking, if you throw enough of it.


 
OK maybe not 5, but 4 - you get my drift (hopefully)


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## Purple (2 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*



Complainer said:


> Actually, I have 28 years experience in data management, so nah-na-na-nah-nah. I know enough to know that you don't reengineer a process based on one user experience.



But I'm sure that most people would accept that if you see a process that appears to be inefficient you should examine it to see if it can be improved.


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## Complainer (2 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*



Mpsox said:


> Suddenly the reluctance to reform in the public sector all makes sense


Right - every time a customer has an opinion, we should drop everything and change things to suit that customer. And then when the next customer has the opposite opinion, we should drop everything and switch it right back to the way it was. 

That's the kind of public service you expect - right?


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## Purple (2 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*



Complainer said:


> Right - every time a customer has an opinion, we should drop everything and change things to suit that customer. And then when the next customer has the opposite opinion, we should drop everything and switch it right back to the way it was.


 No, but the opinion should not be dismissed out of hand.


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## Firefly (2 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*

*Becky post #16*
I got my swine flu jab in my workplace. There were no admin staff at the clinic, one doctor and three nurses. I filled out my form and the nurse put a sticker on the form and gave me a card with a batch number on it. It took me 10 minutes but I didn't hang around afterwards. 
I heard that 300 people were dealt with that morning. Now, while I don't have access to the data there were about 20 people waiting when I arrived and left. 

*Becky post #33*
I work in the HSE

Hmm, sounds like a better service for HSE staff to me


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## Purple (2 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*



Firefly said:


> *Becky post #16*
> I got my swine flu jab in my workplace. There were no admin staff at the clinic, one doctor and three nurses. I filled out my form and the nurse put a sticker on the form and gave me a card with a batch number on it. It took me 10 minutes but I didn't hang around afterwards.
> I heard that 300 people were dealt with that morning. Now, while I don't have access to the data there were about 20 people waiting when I arrived and left.
> 
> ...



I could be that clinics vary and she happened to attend a well run one.


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## Firefly (2 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*



Complainer said:


> Just to be clear, I am pointing out that suggesting improvements to the public sector *here on AAM* is a pointless exercise, given the low level of understanding of public services that is repeatedly demonstrated on these thread.


 
Perhaps if you enlightened us with a process that you think could be improved we might increase our level of understanding. This couls include a description of the current process, any waste duplication etc and any suggestions.


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## Firefly (2 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*



Purple said:


> I could be that clinics vary and she happened to attend a well run one.


... at her place of work


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## Purple (2 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*



Firefly said:


> ... at her place of work



Yes, at her place of work... so what?


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## johnd (2 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*

Complainer

"Actually, I have 28 years experience in data management, so nah-na-na-nah-nah. I know enough to know that you don't reengineer a process based on one user experience.[/quote]


I'm amazed  - I thought from your postings you were a young man in his twenties. I can't believe you are probable middle aged.  

Why do you feel you have to defend the public sector ALL the time?


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## Firefly (2 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*



Purple said:


> Yes, at her place of work... so what?



I just found it funny that a clinic that appears to be run very well with little admin staff was found at a clinic for HSE's own staff, whereas the public clinic attended by the OP was heavily staffed by admin staff, with little work being done by each staff member (on that visit).


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## Firefly (2 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*



Complainer said:


> Actually, I have 28 years experience in data management, so nah-na-na-nah-nah.




9 women, each pregnant for 1 month, does not a baby make


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## Leper (2 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*

For years the Private and Public Sectors got along fairly well and worked in tandem.  Suddenly, the government, the media and the braindead of society decide that the Public Service alone should bear the brunt of the recession.  Get one thing straight, please, the Public Service did not cause the recession.  If you think things are cosy in the Public Service why don't you work there?  There were plenty of jobs going in recent years, but probably the money was not good enough for you.  Things have turned sour for you and believe it or not they have turned sour for us also. But, get off my back - I am not the conscience of the state.

I have loads of experts from the Private Sector trying to run my life.  Most of these people cannot run their own lives.  If they are so brilliant why is Ireland Ltd in such a mess? The rest of europe is coming out of recession, ours has hardly started. One inspired poster here seems to think HSE staff should not be vaccinated against Swine Flu.  Who do you think deals with hospital patients every day?


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## johnd (2 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*



Leper said:


> For years the Private and Public Sectors got along fairly well and worked in tandem.  Suddenly, the government, the media and the braindead of society decide that the Public Service alone should bear the brunt of the recession.  Get one thing straight, please, the Public Service did not cause the recession.  If you think things are cosy in the Public Service why don't you work there?  There were plenty of jobs going in recent years, but probably the money was not good enough for you.  Things have turned sour for you and believe it or not they have turned sour for us also. But, get off my back - I am not the conscience of the state.
> 
> I have loads of experts from the Private Sector trying to run my life.  Most of these people cannot run their own lives.  If they are so brilliant why is Ireland Ltd in such a mess? The rest of europe is coming out of recession, ours has hardly started. One inspired poster here seems to think HSE staff should not be vaccinated against Swine Flu.  Who do you think deals with hospital patients every day?



Believe me, I am tired of Public Sector  experts trying to run my life -  and I work in a semi-state company.  I know these people cannot run a state that is why Ireland Ltd is in a mess. Totally unaccountable to anyone or anything. I work with people who in any other sector would be out on their ear  but because its semi-state they are safe and know it.  The attitude of management is to simply move people into some corner and hopefully the problem will disappear. That problem is, I'm sure, right across all sectors but at least in the private sector they might get the sack. 

The poster who made the comments re HSE staff and the flu jab never suggested they shouldn't receive it. Simply that it appears the way they received the jab was better managed than that of their customers or to use the term favoured by HSE "clients or service users"


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## Mpsox (3 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*



Complainer said:


> 1) The people making the suggestions are speaking from a position of ignorance, in the literal sense of the word. They are outsiders to the business in question, just as I am an outside to drugs research or car design. They don't understand the legal obgliations, the political (big P and small p) environment, the resource constraints of the business in question.


 
So now we finally know why state financial regulation in this country failed, because the people involved were outside the business in question, didn't understand the legal obligations, the political environment, the resource constraints of the business in question.  Thank you for clarifying that for us. Most helpful


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## Firefly (3 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*



johnd said:


> The poster who made the comments re HSE staff and the flu jab never suggested they shouldn't receive it. Simply that it appears the way they received the jab was better managed than that of their customers or to use the term favoured by HSE "clients or service users"


 
Thanks, you beat me to it!


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## Bronte (3 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*

Actually the biggest issue in all this is the wasted cost of the jab and it's administration because the whole thing was a con job.


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## Towger (3 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*



Complainer said:


> If you are genuinely interested in this issue, you might have to do a bit of digging yourself and see what is behind these costs. It might help though if you start comparing like with like. I really doubt if the Ormonde get 4 million unique visitors per annum? Funnily enough, the first page on the Ormonde site that I opened (http://www.onlinecinematickets.com/index.php?s=ORMONDE&p=tickets&perfCode=47463) is broken, with no option to enter the number of tickets required. The HTML has a huge number of failures on the WCAG validator, and there a loads of missing discriptive texts for the images used. Are you sure you want to hold this up as an example of shining private sector effeciency?


 
Don't worry I am going to inquire into the breakdown of running costs of the site. To be honest it sounds like another PPARS, except the project is much smaller and easer to define, so the day to day running costs are lower. I am sure IBM have charged their standard Irish Government contract rates for the writing and maintaining the site. By the way the site does not get 4M hits a year, it brings in 4M euro in taxes. That is interesting is that Revenue have just brought ROS in house, which should save us a few bob. The era of the goverment outsourcing the development and running of websites to large multinationals seems to be starting to come to an end. 

I had no problems in selecting the number and actual position of seats for the Chipmunks. As for the graphics, it has a huge number and they are contently being updated, while the motor tax site is relatively static and has less complex interaction with the user.


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## Husker (3 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*



Towger said:


> By the way the site does not get 4M hits a year


 
Yes, it does.


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## DB74 (3 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*



Bronte said:


> Actually the biggest issue in all this is the wasted cost of the jab and it's administration because the whole thing was a con job.


 
In fairness, 17 people died in Ireland of Swine Flu, one of whom had NO underlying medical conditions. Nobody has died since the jab was introduced AFAIK.


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## Complainer (3 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*



Firefly said:


> Perhaps if you enlightened us with a process that you think could be improved we might increase our level of understanding. This couls include a description of the current process, any waste duplication etc and any suggestions.



No, ain't gonna happen. As I've stated before, I plant my seeds in fertile ground, not in the arid wastelands of AAM.



Firefly said:


> I just found it funny that a clinic that appears to be run very well with little admin staff was found at a clinic for HSE's own staff, whereas the public clinic attended by the OP was heavily staffed by admin staff, with little work being done by each staff member (on that visit).


How did you jump to the conclusion that the clinic that Becky attended was not a public clinic?



johnd said:


> I work with people who in any other sector would be out on their ear  but because its semi-state they are safe and know it.  The attitude of management is to simply move people into some corner and hopefully the problem will disappear. That problem is, I'm sure, right across all sectors but at least in the private sector they might get the sack.


This bears no relation to my experience of the public sector, which isn't that dramatically different to my experience of the private sector. But if your organisation is that bad, fix it - or fix the one corner/area/section that you work in. You are either part of the solution or part of the problem.


Mpsox said:


> So now we finally know why state financial regulation in this country failed, because the people involved were outside the business in question, didn't understand the legal obligations, the political environment, the resource constraints of the business in question.  Thank you for clarifying that for us. Most helpful


Wow, that's some leap. You weren't trying to steer the discussion off-course, by any chance, were you?



Towger said:


> Don't worry I am going to inquire into the breakdown of running costs of the site. To be honest it sounds like another PPARS, except the project is much smaller and easer to define, so the day to day running costs are lower. I am sure IBM have charged their standard Irish Government contract rates for the writing and maintaining the site. By the way the site does not get 4M hits a year, it brings in 4M euro in taxes. That is interesting is that Revenue have just brought ROS in house, which should save us a few bob. The era of the goverment outsourcing the development and running of websites to large multinationals seems to be starting to come to an end.


Maybe there is a mini-PPARS going on here, but there is certainly no hint of that from the information currently available. The fact that substantial money was spent does not mean that money was wasted. Do keep us informed of the results of your digging. And yes, it does get 4m unique visitors a year. I'm interested to hear your comment about Revenue - got any relevant links on this?



Towger said:


> I had no problems in selecting the number and actual position of seats for the Chipmunks. As for the graphics, it has a huge number and they are contently being updated, while the motor tax site is relatively static and has less complex interaction with the user.


That link to the Chipmunks show on *Saturday 06 February 2010 @ 12:10* doesn't allow me to select number of seats, so I can't progress any further. Can you see seat selection for that showing? Indeed there are huge numbers of graphics, but there really isn't any excuse for failing to include alt texts - just sloppy content management. I guess the motor tax site is relatively static, but it does support huge numbers of users and interfaces to the fairly complex vehicle licensing database and to LA revenue systems, so it isn't really a fair comparison at all.


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## Bronte (3 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*

There is only 4.5 million or so people in Ireland, surely 4 million of them don't need a tax disc?

There are places where there is car tax, the bill in sent in the post, one pays it and that's the end of the matter, one doesn't have a tax disc.  A lot less complicated than the Irish system, which sounds quite costly.


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## Firefly (3 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*



Complainer said:


> No, ain't gonna happen. As I've stated before, I plant my seeds in fertile ground, not in the arid wastelands of AAM.
> 
> 
> How did you jump to the conclusion that the clinic that Becky attended was not a public clinic?


 
That's your choice, maybe others may have a different opinion. Not sure about you, but I woudn't spend any of my time somewhere I thought was an arid wasteland. 

To make post #48 easier for you to understand where I made my conclusion, please see sentence 1 from post #16 and sentence 1 from post #33. I think it's a logical conclusion. However, I do stand to be corrected, naturally.


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## Complainer (3 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*



Firefly said:


> To make post #48 easier for you to understand where I made my conclusion, please see sentence 1 from post #16 and sentence 1 from post #33. I think it's a logical conclusion. However, I do stand to be corrected, naturally.



We obviously have very different understandings of 'logical'. To me, you jumped to a conclusion unsupported by evidence to support your arguement. Not unusual round here, mind you.


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## Firefly (3 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*



Complainer said:


> We obviously have very different understandings of 'logical'. To me, you jumped to a conclusion unsupported by evidence to support your arguement. Not unusual round here, mind you.


 
Let me rephrase then, I think it's a logical conclusion to draw from the information provided by Becky in her posts

Post #16 I got my swine flu jab in my workplace.
Post #33 I work in the HSE.


Becky is obviously the only one who can confirm


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## johnd (3 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*



Firefly said:


> Let me rephrase then, I think it's a logical conclusion to draw from the information provided by Becky in her posts
> 
> Post #16 I got my swine flu jab in my workplace.
> Post #33 I work in the HSE.
> ...



That was my understanding too, but like you Firefly I could be wrong


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## Complainer (3 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*



Firefly said:


> Let me rephrase then, I think it's a logical conclusion to draw from the information provided by Becky in her posts
> 
> Post #16 I got my swine flu jab in my workplace.
> Post #33 I work in the HSE.
> ...


But nothing she says suggests that she got her jab in a private clinic for HSE staff (the conclusion that you jumped to).


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## johnd (3 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*



Complainer said:


> But nothing she says suggests that she got her jab in a private clinic for HSE staff (the conclusion that you jumped to).



Becky,  are you out there? Please call in...


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## becky (3 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*



johnd said:


> Becky, are you out there? Please call in...


 

It was a clinic for HSE staff only, held in the workplace. Now there is no doubt in my mind that admin staff were involved but they were not sitting in the clinic.

Now maybe they were all on a coffee break when I attended.


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## Firefly (3 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*



becky said:


> It was a clinic for HSE staff only, held in the workplace. Now there is no doubt in my mind that admin staff were involved but they were not sitting in the clinic.
> 
> Now maybe they were all on a coffee break when I attended.


 
Thanks for the reply Becky.


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## johnd (3 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*



Firefly said:


> Thanks for the reply Becky.



ditto


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## Complainer (4 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*



Firefly said:


> Thanks for the reply Becky.


Ditto


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## Caveat (4 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*

 So, to recap then Firefly...


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## Firefly (4 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*



Caveat said:


> So, to recap then Firefly...


 
You'd have to go WAY back to post #48 for that


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## DB74 (4 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*



Bronte said:


> There is only 4.5 million or so people in Ireland, surely 4 million of them don't need a tax disc?
> 
> There are places where there is car tax, the bill in sent in the post, one pays it and that's the end of the matter, one doesn't have a tax disc. A lot less complicated than the Irish system, which sounds quite costly.


 
Some people may renew their car tax 4 times a year which means that they will visit the site 4 times in a 12 month period.

Personally I don't see why Motor Tax cannot be included in the cost of fuel. So those who do the most driving will pay the most tax.


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## Complainer (4 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*



DB74 said:


> Personally I don't see why Motor Tax cannot be included in the cost of fuel. So those who do the most driving will pay the most tax.


Great idea - same for 3rd party insurance. Isn't this the way it is done in Oz?


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## Firefly (4 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*

Moving along then..

Pricing motor tax into the cost of petrol has some merits IMO as the polluter pays etc. Those who voluntarily drive somewhere should pay for the upkeep on the road etc. The problem I see is that a lot of people commute long distances and spend long periods of time stuck in traffic, where public transport is not adequate, would have to pay a lot. Given these people probably bought new houses in the last few years are now in negative equity I think something like this would be the final straw. 

Not sure I agree with insurance costs included in the price of petrol as this would not deter people from driving dangerously.


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## Latrade (4 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*



Firefly said:


> .... The problem I see is that a lot of people commute long distances and spend long periods of time stuck in traffic, where public transport is not adequate, would have to pay a lot. Given these people probably bought new houses in the last few years are now in negative equity I think something like this would be the final straw...


 
Hmm, but maybe they'd all be so apoplectic with rage and the injustice of it all that we'd be so distracted we wouldn't spend our time counting the number and workload of staff in a HSE centre.

Just to close the loop.


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## Caveat (4 Feb 2010)

*Re: 1 nurse and 5 bureaucrats to give me a swine flu jab, no wonder the country is br*

lol


----------

