# Hike for bus and rail travellers



## thedaras (9 Dec 2011)

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/1209/transport-business.html

Would now be the time to go out (If you can afford it) and buy a load of tickets,as the prices are due to increase from January.


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## TarfHead (9 Dec 2011)

The 15% for bus fares is savage.


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## dereko1969 (9 Dec 2011)

TarfHead said:


> The 15% for bus fares is savage.


 
The 15% is easily avoided through buying a leapcard though or what people should really do if they pay over €1.90 for a bus fare is to stock up on a load of travel90s these will allow you to get on 2 or more buses once the last journey starts less than 90 minutes after the first.


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## thedaras (9 Dec 2011)

Bit confusing,you have to leave  a 90 minute gap,or it has to be less than 90 after your first bus ??

Here is what the website says;



> 10 Journey Travel 90 Adult €19.00
> 
> *Valid for 10 journeys of 90 minutes unlimited travel*
> Valid on Dublin Bus scheduled services including Xpresso (excluding Airlink, Nitelink, Tours, Special Events and Private Contract services)
> ...


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## dereko1969 (9 Dec 2011)

No you don't have to leave 90 minutes between journeys, it's once your second or last journey starts within 90 minutes of first using the card (you have to validate it at the card reader on the bus). I always thought it would only work on 2 bus journeys a colleague disagrees and the DB site is, as you've found, not great at explaining it! It does say unlimited so I suppose any number of buses could be used.

These tickets have variable expiry dates on them but I think most of the ones around at the moment are valid until 2014! so you could miss out on 2 price increases by buying a bunch of them now.


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## micmclo (9 Dec 2011)

Dwell times at some stops are crazy, queues of people lining up with cash fares
If hiking cash fares means people will be encouraged to go pre-pay I'm all for it
Well that's for Dublin bus though

I see Bus Éireann are hiking their fares too, I don't remember a pre pay option in Galway last time I was there


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## thedaras (9 Dec 2011)

Dublin bus have definitely not explained it very well..

My understanding of what is written on their website is that:
You can go on a bus journey, ten times ,up to 90 minutes each time??


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## TarfHead (9 Dec 2011)

I had a look at the [broken link removed]. For me, a Leap card will be the way to go, so long as it is offered at a discount to cash fares. The difference in my weekly spend will be 20c  but the tangible benefit is not having to queue for or to have to have the cash each time you need a ticket. I hate having to use the ticket machine with a €20 note and then having a load of coins as change.


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## thedaras (9 Dec 2011)

Hmm. Ive just heard that its only the cash fares that are increasing..
So there will be no point in stocking up on tickets.


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## roker (11 Dec 2011)

Think of all the people that do not live on a bus route, It cost them a fortune to run a 2nd car if both are working,


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## thedaras (11 Dec 2011)

roker 





> *I cost them a fortune*


Why do you cost them a fortune...only joking..


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## Berni (12 Dec 2011)

dereko1969 said:


> I always thought it would only work on 2 bus journeys a colleague disagrees and the DB site is, as you've found, not great at explaining it! It does say unlimited so I suppose any number of buses could be used.


When they first brought these out - many, many years ago - they were called a Transfer 90, and they only allowed 2 journeys.
When they were revamped into the Travel 90, you get as many journeys as you need, once the last one starts within 90 minutes of the first tag on.


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## Berni (12 Dec 2011)

micmclo said:


> Dwell times at some stops are crazy, queues of people lining up with cash fares
> If hiking cash fares means people will be encouraged to go pre-pay I'm all for it



Ironically, the more people move to the Leap cards, the worse the dwell time will be.
Tagging on on the right hand machine will get you charged almost the max fare (currently €2.20), to pay any less you have to go to the driver and have him issue your fare.


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## Complainer (12 Dec 2011)

Berni said:


> Ironically, the more people move to the Leap cards, the worse the dwell time will be.
> Tagging on on the right hand machine will get you charged almost the max fare (currently €2.20), to pay any less you have to go to the driver and have him issue your fare.



Yeah, awful pity they didn't go for the same tag-on tag-off process that applies on Luas and DART.


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## redstar (12 Dec 2011)

Berni said:


> Ironically, the more people move to the Leap cards, the worse the dwell time will be.
> Tagging on on the right hand machine will get you charged almost the max fare (currently €2.20), to pay any less you have to go to the driver and have him issue your fare.



Now that sounds like a really stupid process !! I cannot see how that helps the customer at all.

Why can't they tag-on/off like rail users ???


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## Sunny (12 Dec 2011)

Because there are thousands of bus stops. Do you really want them to put a machine at every one?


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## Complainer (12 Dec 2011)

Sunny said:


> Because there are thousands of bus stops. Do you really want them to put a machine at every one?



The smart card devices are already on the buses. I'm guessing that the limitation is that they are not location sensitive - so they have no GPS tracker or other technology that will let the smartcard reader know what stop they are at when the person tags on.


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## Sunny (12 Dec 2011)

Complainer said:


> The smart card devices are already on the buses. I'm guessing that the limitation is that they are not location sensitive - so they have no GPS tracker or other technology that will let the smartcard reader know what stop they are at when the person tags on.



Actually reading how the system works on Dublin bus makes no sense. From my understanding, you can only tag on the right side of the bus when paying the maximum fare. Otherwise you still have to get the driver deduct the correct fare from your card. Is this correct? Haven't seen it in use yet so am curious.


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## Complainer (12 Dec 2011)

Sunny said:


> Actually reading how the system works on Dublin bus makes no sense. From my understanding, you can only tag on the right side of the bus when paying the maximum fare. Otherwise you still have to get the driver deduct the correct fare from your card. Is this correct? Haven't seen it in use yet so am curious.



Yep, that's it - because the card reader on the right side has no location information.


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## Sunny (12 Dec 2011)

Complainer said:


> The smart card devices are already on the buses. I'm guessing that the limitation is that they are not location sensitive - so they have no GPS tracker or other technology that will let the smartcard reader know what stop they are at when the person tags on.



But you still need to tag off either on the bus when getting off or at the bus stop so it can calculate the fare so a Luas like system would be next to impossible to use.


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## Complainer (12 Dec 2011)

Sunny said:


> But you still need to tag off either on the bus when getting off or at the bus stop so it can calculate the fare so a Luas like system would be next to impossible to use.



No mention of 'tagging off' the bus on the instructions on leapcard.ie - the full 2.20 is charged if you tag on using the reader on the right side. If you want a lower fare, you have to use the driver's ticket machine.


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## Sunny (12 Dec 2011)

Complainer said:


> No mention of 'tagging off' the bus on the instructions on leapcard.ie - the full 2.20 is charged if you tag on using the reader on the right side. If you want a lower fare, you have to use the driver's ticket machine.



Yeah I know. It's just when people are saying that it is a shame that they didn't introduce the same system as the Luas, it's not practical. People tag on and off the Luas at the various stops. Since you can't expect Dublin bus to put a machine at every single stop, people would need to tag on and off on the bus but then you would have people getting off the bus competing with people getting on the bus to tag on and off. Think it works better for rail rather than buses. Years since I used buses in london. Is it the same there does anyone know?


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## Protocol (13 Dec 2011)

London buses and trams have a flat fare.

So you tag on the bus. But no tagging off.

*2011 fares*

2.20 cash / 1.30 Oyster / daily Oyster price cap of 4.00


*2012 fares*

2.30 cash / 1.35 Oyster / daily Oyster price cap of 4.20 / monthly bus pass = 72.20


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## Protocol (13 Dec 2011)

http://www.ov-chipkaart.nl/

The Dutch smart-card system seems to involve readers when exiting the bus.

So it seems you do tag-on and tag-off on the bus.

The fare is a fixed 79c per trip + a distance fee depending per km where you live.

Key point: the 79c is charged once, so if you switch to a different bus / tram during the same trip you are not charged the 79c again.

The Leap system doesn't allow that yet, but it will eventually.


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## terrontress (13 Dec 2011)

Sunny said:


> Yeah I know. It's just when people are saying that it is a shame that they didn't introduce the same system as the Luas, it's not practical. People tag on and off the Luas at the various stops. Since you can't expect Dublin bus to put a machine at every single stop, people would need to tag on and off on the bus but then you would have people getting off the bus competing with people getting on the bus to tag on and off. Think it works better for rail rather than buses. Years since I used buses in london. Is it the same there does anyone know?


 
I think the flat fare system which London operates is best all round. It takes away any ambiguity. If you're on the bus, you have had to tag on. If you go one stop or travel for an hour the cost is the same. The simplicity is its strength.


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## redstar (13 Dec 2011)

Complainer said:


> No mention of 'tagging off' the bus on the instructions on leapcard.ie - the full 2.20 is charged if you tag on using the reader on the right side. If you want a lower fare, you have to use the driver's ticket machine.



Like i said earlier - its a stupid system for Dublin Bus. Even if they cannot put readers at every stop, i'm sure they could have used a better system than the one they have implemented. How do other countries do it ? Dublin is hardly a major metropolis like, say, Toronto.


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## dereko1969 (13 Dec 2011)

redstar said:


> Like i said earlier - its a stupid system for Dublin Bus. Even if they cannot put readers at every stop, i'm sure they could have used a better system than the one they have implemented. How do other countries do it ? Dublin is hardly a major metropolis like, say, Toronto.


 
Any chance of a suggestion rather than a rant?

Virtually 95% of Dublin Buses are 1 door only - if the fleet was 2 door you could tag off at the rear door - they're not so you can't. If you were to tag off at the front (only) door you would be blocking people getting onto the bus leading to longer dwell times at the stops leading to longer journey times leading to fewer passengers. 

The only solution is a flat fare which given that DB are losing money hand over fist leads to real trepidation as to what level the flat fare should be set at, it's not as easy as you seem to think.


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## Mpsox (13 Dec 2011)

In fairness, they are only at the start of what I've heard mentioned is a 12 month roll out of the card, with capping, season tickets and free travel all to come, + Bus Eireann and the independent bus operators

As for a flat fare, fine in theory, but it would probably result in a fare rise for people travelling short distances.


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## Firefly (13 Dec 2011)

dereko1969 said:


> Virtually 95% of Dublin Buses are 1 door only - if the fleet was 2 door you could tag off at the rear door - they're not so you can't.



I noticed this was being implemented when I lived in Dublin. Seems absurd. Was there ever any official reason for this because it seems to be the norm everywhere else.


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## terrontress (13 Dec 2011)

I think the difference in London and Dublin in terms of bus journeys is that in Dublin people tend to take the bus for the entire length of the route. People get on in the city and off in Swords or Dun Laoghaire. In London, the bus routes are often longer but people only use short stretches of the journey instead of sitting on it the whole way.


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## dereko1969 (13 Dec 2011)

Firefly said:


> I noticed this was being implemented when I lived in Dublin. Seems absurd. Was there ever any official reason for this because it seems to be the norm everywhere else.


 
I've heard a couple of reasons - bus stops not correctly aligned so drivers fearful of being sued for people injuring themselves getting off buses at the rear doors - fear of people bunking onto the buses and not paying - the amount of time I saw our European brethren obediently waiting at the middle doors (where there was a sign saying exit by middle doors only) to be let off only to be shouted at by the driver to come up front!

I'd blame the drivers mostly, the buses were bought with double doors and then not used.


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## Firefly (13 Dec 2011)

dereko1969 said:


> I've heard a couple of reasons - bus stops not correctly aligned so drivers fearful of being sued for people injuring themselves getting off buses at the rear doors - fear of people bunking onto the buses and not paying - t*he amount of time I saw our European brethren obediently waiting at the middle doors (where there was a sign saying exit by middle doors only) to be let off only to be shouted at by the driver to come up front!*
> 
> I'd blame the drivers mostly, the buses were bought with double doors and then not used.



I've seen this too and it is quite embarrasing. A simple sign over the middle doors telling foreigners  in the most popular foreign languages would fix this...even better would be to use the bleedin doors!


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## Leo (13 Dec 2011)

Complainer said:


> The smart card devices are already on the buses. I'm guessing that the limitation is that they are not location sensitive - so they have no GPS tracker or other technology that will let the smartcard reader know what stop they are at when the person tags on.


 
The paper tickets issued when paying cash indicate what stage you're on and what stage you've paid up for. So the existing technology has location capacity, I presume manually updated by the driver as they move from stage to stage. Too much to expect them to integrate systems though.


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## redstar (13 Dec 2011)

dereko1969 said:


> Any chance of a suggestion rather than a rant?
> 
> Virtually 95% of Dublin Buses are 1 door only - if the fleet was 2 door you could tag off at the rear door - they're not so you can't. If you were to tag off at the front (only) door you would be blocking people getting onto the bus leading to longer dwell times at the stops leading to longer journey times leading to fewer passengers.
> 
> The only solution is a flat fare which given that DB are losing money hand over fist leads to real trepidation as to what level the flat fare should be set at, it's not as easy as you seem to think.



Well, this is letting off steam forum so I'm entitled to rant ! 

My initial post had a suggestion - tagon/tagoff, like rail.

As for dwell times, have you ever waited behind a passenger while they searched for their exact change ...

Also, their prepaid cards for lower-fare journies were quite good until they withdrew them. Now i have to carry 1.20 for every bus journey. Progress ?


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## TarfHead (13 Dec 2011)

Leo said:


> So the existing technology has location capacity, I presume manually updated by the driver as they move from stage to stage.


 
Aren't buses now 'location aware' (aka GPS) to support the real time information on some bus stops ?


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## Firefly (13 Dec 2011)

TarfHead said:


> Aren't buses now 'location aware' (aka GPS) to support the real time information on some bus stops ?



I thought that too. Funily the service seems to tell you (roughly) how long away the bus will be (which can only ever be an estimate with traffic etc) rather than where the bus actually is (which IMO would be better). I presume this is so the public can't see the usual bunching of buses going on.


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## dereko1969 (13 Dec 2011)

redstar said:


> Well, this is letting off steam forum so I'm entitled to rant !
> 
> *My initial post had a suggestion - tagon/tagoff, like rail.*
> 
> ...


 
It had already been pointed out what the difficulties in tagging off in a single door situation are before you made your ill-informed point. 

If you're paying 1.20 for your journey you should probably walk though you will get a discount if you use the leap card. It will entail talking to the bus driver though having a card should be quicker than fumbling for change.


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## Complainer (13 Dec 2011)

TarfHead said:


> Aren't buses now 'location aware' (aka GPS) to support the real time information on some bus stops ?



The buses are, but the smart card reader on the right side as you enter isn't (or that's my guess anyway).


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## cork (13 Dec 2011)

I think the tax relief scheme is completely inflexable.

What is you loose you job within the 12 months or if your hours are cut?

Committing to buy a ticket for a period of 52 weeks is too long.

Another point is that it is high time that competition was introduced on all bus routes.


Monopolys are bad - bloated + inefficent.


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## redstar (13 Dec 2011)

dereko1969 said:


> It had already been pointed out what the difficulties in tagging off in a single door situation are before you made your ill-informed point.
> 
> If you're paying 1.20 for your journey you should probably walk though you will get a discount if you use the leap card. It will entail talking to the bus driver though having a card should be quicker than fumbling for change.



Well, it seems a hi-tech solution is not suitable for Dublin Bus. The prepaid card solution was much better - no cash, no tagon/tagoff, no dwell time - simple for the customer.

BTW..Don't assume every one is in a position to walk for a 1.20 journey. Ill-informed comment i think


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## gipimann (13 Dec 2011)

dereko1969 said:


> I've heard a couple of reasons - bus stops not correctly aligned so drivers fearful of being sued for people injuring themselves getting off buses at the rear doors - fear of people bunking onto the buses and not paying - the amount of time I saw our European brethren obediently waiting at the middle doors (where there was a sign saying exit by middle doors only) to be let off only to be shouted at by the driver to come up front!
> 
> I'd blame the drivers mostly, the buses were bought with double doors and then not used.



It's simple really - the middle doors could never be used as exits because that's where the fold-up buggies are stored!


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## dereko1969 (14 Dec 2011)

cork said:


> I think the tax relief scheme is completely inflexable.
> 
> What is you loose you job within the 12 months or if your hours are cut?
> 
> ...


 
You can buy monthly taxsaver tickets.


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## STEINER (14 Dec 2011)

a 15% rise in some Dublin Bus fares is just outrageous in this day and age. A pure monopoly screwing the consumer.


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## dereko1969 (14 Dec 2011)

STEINER said:


> a 15% rise in some Dublin Bus fares is just outrageous in this day and age. A pure monopoly screwing the consumer.


 
Have you actually read anything in this thread or anywhere else for that matter on this subject?

Dublin Bus' subvention ie Government contribution has been cut by 8%, they've already cut employment numbers, overtime and brought in a better network design to cut costs. Where do you suggest they get the money to make up the shortfall?

The 15% is in part a way to penalise those who insist on continuing to use cash, it's very easy to avoid this penalty by getting a Leap card.
www.leapcard.ie


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## Oscaresque (14 Dec 2011)

dereko1969 said:


> The 15% is in part a way to penalise those who insist on continuing to use cash, it's very easy to avoid this penalty by getting a Leap card.
> www.leapcard.ie




I thought the leap card was only offering discounts on Dart and Luas but not Dublin Bus? I would love to be wrong on this.


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## dereko1969 (15 Dec 2011)

Oscaresque said:


> I thought the leap card was only offering discounts on Dart and Luas but not Dublin Bus? I would love to be wrong on this.


 
At the moment there's only a discount on the €2.30 fare on Dublin Bus, it's €2.20 with the Leap Card, but once the fare increases on January 1 there's discounts on all cash fares ranging from 6% to 11%.

See here for full details
[broken link removed]


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## Oscaresque (15 Dec 2011)

great thanks - every little helps!


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## dem_syhp (16 Jan 2012)

Has anyone else started to use the leapcard.   I did, 3rd of Jan and off I went.  But I noticed on my 3rd journey that I'd used more credit than I'd expected.  I logged on, and sure enough, on my first journey, I was charged twice - I had gone to the bus driver to pay, so it wasn't like I tagged on twice or anything crazy.  

I emailed in to them asking that I be refunded and was patiently awaiting the money to be put back on.  But a week later I got an email, to be refunded I need to call in to the office on O Connell Street.  But I don't work or live in town and don't go in very often (if I do it's a night for a few drinks when they're not open).  So would need to spend 4.80 to go in to town to collect my 1.70 that they've over charged me.  

It's the principle of it.  I don't see why I need to go out of my way when they can look at my log and see that at 8:32 on the afformentioned morning they charged me twice.   

Grr..


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## Berni (16 Jan 2012)

dem_syhp said:


> Has anyone else started to use the leapcard.   I did, 3rd of Jan and off I went.  But I noticed on my 3rd journey that I'd used more credit than I'd expected.  I logged on, and sure enough, on my first journey, I was charged twice - I had gone to the bus driver to pay, so it wasn't like I tagged on twice or anything crazy.
> 
> they can look at my log and see that at 8:32 on the afformentioned morning they charged me twice.



The problem here is that the system is set up to allow you to pay for your own fare, and a companion's, all out of your stored credit.

If you get issued a paper ticket for your fare, it means they've charged you for two, and you need to get the driver to refund you immediately. 

Otherwise you'll be entering the twilight zone of leap refunds, where it is always someone else's responsibility, and you'll be passed around the houses with no joy at all.


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## Oscaresque (19 Jan 2012)

I haven't had any issues yet but I can imagine arguing an issue could become a complete pain. It let me go 40c overdrawn into the deposit recently, which is very handy if you're running a little short and haven't topped up. 

One annoyance is if you top up online it can take up to 48 hours before you can get your money. In future I'll top up in cash at a payzone as you need to go to one anyway to activate your online top up.


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## TarfHead (20 Jan 2012)

I started using the Leap Card last week and, when it works, it's a good system. My issue is with my local station. The turnstiles have been out of order for nearly 3 months, and now the seperate Tag On/Off device has started to malfunction. This morning it displayed that my card had been verified which I assumed to be a valid Tag On. When I went to Tag Off at the other station, I was Tagged On, which means I've been charged 4.30 for a 2.10 fare.

Irish Rail are running a competition for us to tell them how much we love our local station. Perhaps they'd run a second competition for voting how much of a kip our local station is  ?


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## dereko1969 (20 Jan 2012)

Which station is that?


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