# B1 form late submission



## Jon_08 (13 Feb 2008)

Hi guys, 
Having a bad spill of luck over this week, and all down to a stupid accountant. 

Anyhows, I have a limited company, makes a reasonable turn over and employs only me. I had my accountant for two years, towards Sept/ Oct last year I started getting notices of unpaid VAT. I queried my accountant he said not to worry as the business was idle (not trading) for a year so there was nothing to declare, he said there would be no penalties etc and that he'll sort it.

This didn't sound right to me, I immediately decided to remove him as my accountant and get someone else. I informed him of my decision late Oct he was a bit snotty but got over it, I collected all my things when he told me to early Jan. 

I passed it on to my new accountant last week, and received his phone call yesterday. Unfortunately it was not good news..

It turns out my old accountant didn't file my end of year returns, I think its called my B1? This went from Mar06 to Mar07. The company only traded for 3 months in this time (earning about 7k). He missed the deadline, and didn't file it at all.

My new accountant has advised me that I've recieved a on the spot fine straight away, and €3 for every day its late... 2.5months ago!!! He has also advised me that i've lost my audit exemption and that I'll have to get my company audited for last year and this year. 

I'm not too happy to be honest, I gave my old accountant full rights as district of attorney. All documents were meant to go to him, he looked after everything and I just paid the bills. 

So, now I have to pay this fine, and get audited. 

Is there anything I can do in relation to my old accountant? surely he can't get away with this?

Also, how much will I be looking at for an auditor? The word itself makes my wallet feel a few grand lighter...

help me!!

PLEASE


----------



## Graham_07 (14 Feb 2008)

> This didn't sound right to me, I immediately decided to remove him as my accountant and get someone else. I informed him of my decision late Oct he was a bit snotty but got over it, I collected all my things when he told me to early Jan.


 
How did it take over 2 months to get the records after you told him you were moving ? 



> It turns out my old accountant didn't file my end of year returns, I think its called my B1? This went from Mar06 to Mar07. The company only traded for 3 months in this time (earning about 7k). He missed the deadline, and didn't file it at all.


 
What is in the letter of engagement you signed with him. That would set out the respective duties & responsibilities of each of you regarding the appointment. If there is a breach on his part then you may have a case.



> I'm not too happy to be honest, I gave my old accountant full rights as *district of attorney*. All documents were meant to go to him, he looked after everything and I just paid the bills.


 
I do not understand what you mean by the term district of attorney in relation to either accountant or auditor? Again, check what does your engagement letter say on duties.

Unfortunately, whether or not there is a breach of duty on his part, and whether or not you have any redress, company law is clear in relation to missed deadlines. The directors have a responsibility to ensure returns are filed on time. Loss of audit exemption is a consequence of late filing.

If your new accountant is also a registered auditor they would be able to give you an estimate of costs of having the accounts audited.


----------



## Joe1234 (14 Feb 2008)

Graham_07 said:


> How did it take over 2 months to get the records after you told him you were moving ?



Maybe the OP owed the old accountant money.  If so, I believe that the old accountant can withold info until any outstanding bills have been paid.  However, another scenario is that the old accountant was annoyed at being let go, and knowing that the companies office fees were increasing, held on as long as he could, so that the op would face bigger cro fines.


----------



## Jon_08 (14 Feb 2008)

He wasn't too happy at all. I didn't owe him any money. As I said paid invoices as soon as they were received. He was happy, and seems was getting paid for nothing.

I cant understand how an accountant to whom you impower is allowed to get away with such negligence.

Surely there's a penalty he should pay. I feel he should fit any unnecessary costs occured due to his mistake.

Is there someone I can get advise from on this? Ombudsman type of thing?


----------



## homer1 (14 Feb 2008)

Hi 

Sorry to hear that you were messed around. I agree with Graham07 have a look at your Letter of Engagement it should state clearly who has to do what. 

Altough the final responsability falls with the director of the company for sending in returns etc. An accountant has to take out PII insurance to cover themselves against claims, so you might have some recourse this way.

Also have you checked with his institute that he is allowed practise and can they not give you some help as to weather you can make a complaint against him.

Can anyone throw some more light on PII insurance.
Sorry not much more help I can give you but hope it works out as its tough enough for a small business to survive with out these type of problems.


----------



## Jon_08 (14 Feb 2008)

tough indeed! but, I have to admit this place is easing the burden.

Least I can get answers here.

Thanks a mill for everyones responses. I won't be taking this lightly, yes responsibility is on the directors, but I did pay him extra to take full control.

Hopefully I have some grounds to get a refund for any expenses caused...


----------



## lukegriffen (14 Feb 2008)

Is there anyway of knowing if B1s or annual returns are late ?  I know you can check ROS for due & overdue tax returns, but is it just a case of ringing up the Companies Office to find out if they've received  all appropriate returns / forms ?   If they send out a mail re. overdue forms/returns, will they  only send it to the accountant ?

I changed my accountant recently, so should i inform Revenue Commissioners or Companies Office to stop sending any communications re. my company to him ?


----------



## homer1 (14 Feb 2008)

Hi Luke

 if you go to the cro website and do a company search for your company and it will tell you when your next ARD is due you have 28 days from that date to get your paper work into the cro after 28 days its classed as late.

where ever you office is registered is where the forms will be sent so if your old accountant offices was also your registered office than you need to get the address changed but check with your new accounatant as I'm sure he has looked after this


----------



## Graham_07 (15 Feb 2008)

Jon_08 said:


> yes responsibility is on the directors, but I did pay him extra to take full control.
> 
> Hopefully I have some grounds to get a refund for any expenses caused...


 
I appreciate your difficulty and concern and hopefully you will be able to resolve matters. 

As others have said & per my original post. The engagement letter , the accountant's institute and possibly their Prof Indemnity Insce may all have a part to play in this. If they took on additional responsibilities and such are clearly set out in the engagement and if they have been negligent in those duties then there is a process with all of the accountancy institutes in Ireland through which one can register a complaint. 

Difficulties may arise if no engagement letter was issued. Then the lines of who was to do what may not be as clear. However PII companies do ask the question of accountants, when completing their insurance renewals whether they do issue engagement letters and if they do, a sample of such is often requested. So I believe that such letters have a part to play in claims.

What may be part of the problem is having all information passed on to an agent like this. Having ones R/Office at one's accountant etc. I know it's popular and relieves the company of a lot of brown harp embossed envelopes but I do not generally think this is a good idea. All correspondence should, in the first instance, be directed to the company. I know it's convenient etc. but the directors need and are obliged to have control. If an ARD reminder letter is sent to the company, at their RO and the directors read it, it's more likely to generate an immediate " oh what do we have to do here, must ring the accountants" than if that letter goes to the accountant who may be up to their elbows in other equally important stuff.  The directors in such cases are "out of the loop" and this may be seen as lack of care on their part in not being fully informed so as to be in a position to carry out their duties properly. I do not have any client's RO at my office. All correspondence goes to them. Where appropriate, I get copies, such as CT assessments, etc. and I keep tabs on them via ROS and CORE. That's my way of doing it and so far it has worked.


----------



## Graham_07 (15 Feb 2008)

Joe1234 said:


> Maybe the OP owed the old accountant money. If so, I believe that the old accountant can withold info until any outstanding bills have been paid. However, another scenario is that the old accountant was annoyed at being let go, and knowing that the companies office fees were increasing, held on as long as he could, so that the op would face bigger cro fines.


 
It would, in accountancy circles, not be uncommon for the incumbent accountant to ensure that any outstanding fees were paid to them before passing on any information to the incoming accountant. However, the Code of Ethics for Professional Accountants promulgated internationally by IFAC indicates that the fact itself that fees may be owing to the existing accountant is not a professional reason stopping another accountant from accepting an appointment. So even without records, if the OP had consulted with a new accountant he may have found out about the impending ARD through a simple by the incoming accountant and might have been better placed to get the records quickly and avoid the situation that has now arisen on having to be audited. 

Regarding the issue of holding on to records just so the OP would face biger CRO fines. That sort of conduct, to me, is a terribly poor reflection of any professionally qualified accountant, regardless of the conduct of the client. It's petty and not something to which I would ever subscribe.


----------



## Bill Struth (15 Feb 2008)

lukegriffen said:


> Is there anyway of knowing if B1s or annual returns are late ? I know you can check ROS for due & overdue tax returns, but is it just a case of ringing up the Companies Office to find out if they've received all appropriate returns / forms ? If they send out a mail re. overdue forms/returns, will they only send it to the accountant ?
> 
> I changed my accountant recently, so should i inform Revenue Commissioners or Companies Office to stop sending any communications re. my company to him ?


Annual return reminders are sent to the registered office of the company. Some reminders for late returns are sent to Directors homes. The CRO is not obliged to send reminders. If you are not getting these, then there is a good chance that the registered office in the CRO records is incorrect, perhaps a B2 has not been filed. You can check when the next B1 is due here:

[broken link removed]


----------



## Nostromo (15 Feb 2008)

You can complain about Chartered Accountants to the Chartered Accountant Regulatory Board.  The main page is at
http://www.carb.ie

and the complaints form starts at
http://www.carb.ie/complaints/step1.cfm


----------



## Joe1234 (15 Feb 2008)

Graham_07 said:


> the fact itself that fees may be owing to the existing accountant is not a professional reason stopping another accountant from accepting an appointment.



Correct.  The new accountant can accept an appointment but the old accountant can hold back the info until all outstanding fees have been paid


----------



## Joe1234 (15 Feb 2008)

homer1 said:


> if your old accountant offices was also your registered office than you need to get the address changed but check with your new accounatant as I'm sure he has looked after this



How can the accountant change the registered office.  Does at least one of the directors not have to sign the B2?


----------



## homer1 (16 Feb 2008)

Hi Joe1234

Yes you are correct, what i meant was for the op to check with new accountant about the registered office and the new accountant will take care of the paperwork and get the op to sign the B2 form to change the reg office address.

My apologies for not explaining my point to well


----------

