# We have lost the run of ourselves...



## BOXtheFOX (1 Oct 2007)

Just reading the Irish Independepent Fine Wine and Food Guide supplement.
One restaurant that was visited by a critic in Malahide was given a 4 star  value for money rating for an 8 course Tasting Menu that cost €130 per head.
Another critic visited the Macreddin village hotel and gave a 4 star value rating for his meal where his two year old child was charged €20 for a child lunch that consisted of mashed potatoes and chicken with gravy and a bowl of ice cream.
I have just returned from France where I had some really excellent Menu of the Day, three course meals for €12 per person. Splash out on the €14 menu and you got an even bigger choice sometimes with a pitcher of the local wine thrown in. 
With Ryanair flights at 1c........


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## Caveat (1 Oct 2007)

Obviously I'm not a food expert - but I'm no fool in this regard either.

I really think a lot of what you mention is a symptom of the more unsavoury side of the 'celtic tiger'. If something is expensive therefore it is desirable and must be of high quality. This extends to clothes, appliances, vehicles and even food.

I have eaten in very expensive restaurants before - sometimes they have been very good but often average and sometimes poor. Critics are one thing but a lot of people who eat in these places clearly haven't got a clue about good food - every single morsel tastes "absolutely gorgeous".

They think that people expect to hear this and they are too afraid/ignorant to say anything different. 

Yes, a lot of places are overpriced but the fools who patronise these establishments, regardless of their quality, annoy me even more.

(Not necessarily directed at the above mentioned by the way!)


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## Trafford (1 Oct 2007)

I always assume that the reasons for higher prices here is partly down to the higher cost of labour, and over heads generally.


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## Caveat (1 Oct 2007)

Trafford said:


> I always assume that the reasons for higher prices here is partly down to the higher cost of labour, and over heads generally.


 
If that was the case all restaurants would be expensive but you can still get good quality, low cost meals - only yesterday we had:

*3 people: 3 course meal (large portions, good food) + tea/coffee + 1 round of drinks for the princely sum of €80.*

Personally, I've spent twice that or more and had lower quality food and below average service.


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## Purple (1 Oct 2007)

As a rule restaurants don't make money selling food, they make it on the drink. Also consider that in a Michelin star eatery there will be huge waste. An eight course meal with expensive ingredients like Quail, monkfish or scallops (for example) could easily cost €30 or €40 before fixed costs and labour are calculated.
When deciding if €130 is good or bad value for a tasting menu you have to consider how educated the palette of the person eating the meal is. The same can be said of fine wine. Giving me a glass of 1978 Mouton Rothschild would be a complete waste as I wouldn't appreciate it's nuances but there are those who would. The same is the case with food.  
If you can't afford it then don't buy it but to say that you can get fed in restaurant A for €25 per person so therefore restaurant B is bad value because it charges €125 per person is like saying that a 5 series BMW is bad value because a Nissan Micra is cheaper.


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## MandaC (1 Oct 2007)

I had the "pleasure" of dining in one of our most expensive restaurants a couple of weeks ago.  I was most disappointed with the quality of the food, which was served luke warm.

As Caveat says, I also got the distinct impression from people there that "this is expensive, so its the best" but they had not really got a clue about food in general.

I dont mind paying for what I get, but there comes a point where you have to say theres no dinner worth that!!!


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## Purple (1 Oct 2007)

MandaC said:


> I had the "pleasure" of dining in one of our most expensive restaurants a couple of weeks ago.  I was most disappointed with the quality of the food, which was served luke warm.
> 
> As Caveat says, I also got the distinct impression from people there that "this is expensive, so its the best" but they had not really got a clue about food in general.
> 
> I dont mind paying for what I get, but there comes a point where you have to say theres no dinner worth that!!!


If you don't think it's worth it then don't go back. If it's busy then other people do. 
I don't eat in top restaurants very often (maybe three or four times a year), and haven't been in very many, but I've never got a bad meal in Patrick Guilbaud's. I can't afford to buy the best wines there, and wouldn't even if I could as I wouldn't appreciate them, but that doesn't mean they are bad value; it just means that I can't afford them.
Thorntons is also very expensive, Chapter One is considered to be cheap (one star, Thorntons has two) but are they good value? Try booking a table there. 

If people are eating there because they think that "this is expensive, so its the best" then they are fools, just as someone who isn't into cars but buys a Porsche to be seen in is a fool. That doesn't make Porsche bad value.

Expensive restaurants that don't offer consistently good quality don't last long. The Commons on St.Stephens Green closed the year after it received it's Michelin star. Another place that I considered vastly over-priced for it's mediocre offering was Cooks Cafe. It closed as well.

By the way, if you think Dublin is expensive try eating off the top of the menu in London. It's at least twice the price.


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## Caveat (1 Oct 2007)

Purple said:


> to say that you can get fed in restaurant A for €25 per person so therefore restaurant B is bad value because it charges €125 per person is like saying that a 5 series BMW is bad value because a Nissan Micra is cheaper.


 
I don't mean simply 'getting fed'.

What I'm referring to is the common scenario where the food and service in restaurant B is poor _*and*_ it's expensive - therefore it's bad value in comparison to the good food/service provided by restaurant A at a lower cost.

Your example is only a relevant comparison if e.g. BMWs were very uncomfortable, very unreliable and did not achieve their stated performance. Then they would indeed be bad value


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## Purple (1 Oct 2007)

Caveat said:


> I don't mean simply 'getting fed'.
> 
> What I'm referring to is the common scenario where the food and service in restaurant B is poor _*and*_ it's expensive - therefore it's bad value in comparison to the good food/service provided by restaurant A at a lower cost.
> 
> Your example is only a relevant comparison if e.g. BMWs were very uncomfortable, very unreliable and did not achieve their stated performance. Then they would indeed be bad value



I agree.
It's just the "Oh, €180 for your dinner, you're being ripped off" lot that get to me. €180 might to great value in one place, just as €15 in another place might be excessive.


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## Jock04 (1 Oct 2007)

Box,
The menu prices you quoted are hardly likely to be achieved at a top restaurant in Paris, therefore the comparison is fatally flawed.
I think your point though, maybe, is that so many people here are willing to pay such high amounts in restaurants?
Hey, there's been a boom. Lots of those damned working class types have come into money & are spending it. Their choice. You'll get very short shrift on here complaining about how people spend their money.


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## elefantfresh (1 Oct 2007)

Reminds me of Pulp Fiction "I just want to see what a $5 shake tastes like".
Hard to believe that people will pay 120e for a dinner all the same....


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## BOXtheFOX (1 Oct 2007)

I always felt satisfied and well fed after my "Menu du Jour". The €3 charge for a pitcher of the delicious local wine also went down well and no headaches like I sometimes get from the more expensive bottled stuff here.
I still think that charging €20 for a plate of mashed potato and chicken for a 2 year old, even if it was organic is over the top.
I agree with Caveat when he says that there are some people who think that expensive is best. A colleague of mine and his wife are flying in to Nice with Aer Lingus and paying over €200 for the privilege. Around the same time I am also doing the trip with Ryanair for just over €40. He could have gone with Ryanair but didn't. Why?


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## ubiquitous (1 Oct 2007)

He's not Des Geraghty by any chance?

[broken link removed]



> Mr Geraghty vehemently denies he has ever flown with Ryanair.


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## Purple (1 Oct 2007)

ubiquitous said:


> He's not Des Geraghty by any chance?
> 
> [broken link removed]


Typical unions trying to bully people into doing things their way.


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## MrMan (1 Oct 2007)

> Around the same time I am also doing the trip with Ryanair for just over €40. He could have gone with Ryanair but didn't. Why?



Probably for the reliability factor. Ryanair has so many scare stories of planes being delayed/postponed and there is also the no frills aspect. It doesn't necessarily point your colleague out as a snob. I don't like using Ryanair myself if I can get away with.


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## Caveat (1 Oct 2007)

Just please don't tell me the pretentious git is flying to Nice for a _meal?!  _


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## Purple (1 Oct 2007)

Caveat said:


> Just please don't tell me the pretentious git is flying to Nice for a _meal?!  _



...for a nice meal


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## elefantfresh (1 Oct 2007)

very nice


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## rabbit (1 Oct 2007)

Caveat said:


> Obviously I'm not a food expert - but I'm no fool in this regard either.
> 
> I really think a lot of what you mention is a symptom of the more unsavoury side of the 'celtic tiger'. If something is expensive therefore it is desirable and must be of high quality. This extends to clothes, appliances, vehicles and even food.
> 
> ...


 
well said


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## cole (1 Oct 2007)

Purple said:


> €180 might to great value in one place, just as €15 in another place might be excessive.


 
Can't for the life of me think of any €180 dinner that is great value. Perhaps if it incorporated a lot of gold leaf?


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## Purple (2 Oct 2007)

cole said:


> Can't for the life of me think of any €180 dinner that is great value. Perhaps if it incorporated a lot of gold leaf?


 Then it would be bad value for you, just like the bottle of Mouton Rothschild would be. That doesn't make it bad value for everyone. 
The problem here is that people are talking about things that they don't understand. If the ingredients cost €40 and the chef buys everything fresh every morning and throws out everything that is not used every evening then €180 would be required to tern a profit. If people buy the meal because they are into that sort of food and it's  their passion then good for them. If they buy it because it's expensive and they think it's the place to be seen then they are idiots but it's unfair to make sweeping statements as if their was some one size fits all measure of value for restaurants.


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## diarmuidc (2 Oct 2007)

BOXtheFOX said:


> I always felt satisfied and well fed after my "Menu du Jour". The €3 charge for a pitcher of the delicious local wine also went down well and no headaches like I sometimes get from the more expensive bottled stuff here.


I eat out quite a bit in France (I live in Nice) but to be honest the the wine you get for €3 in a resto is generally poor. You will get a 50cl pitcher of rose for €5 and it may be decent (depending on resto) but €3 is generally bad. Having said that, the value I get in wines when I go back to Ireland is shocking, especially in restaurants.



BOXtheFOX said:


> flying in to Nice with Aer Lingus and paying over €200 for the privilege. Around the same time I am also doing the trip with Ryanair for just over €40. He could have gone with Ryanair but didn't. Why?


The Ryanair route only opened in the last couple of weeks. Maybe he had booked before the route was announced.  Prices on the AerLingus route have been around the 200E mark for the past 1.5 years.


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## Caveat (2 Oct 2007)

Purple said:


> Then it would be bad value for you, just like the bottle of Mouton Rothschild would be. That doesn't make it bad value for everyone.
> The problem here is that people are talking about things that they don't understand. If the ingredients cost €40 and the chef buys everything fresh every morning and throws out everything that is not used every evening then €180 would be required to tern a profit. If people buy the meal because they are into that sort of food and it's their passion then good for them. If they buy it because it's expensive and they think it's the place to be seen then they are idiots but it's unfair to make sweeping statements as if their was some one size fits all measure of value for restaurants.


 
I agree.

I suppose it depends on whether or not you are a 'foodie'.
I would be prepared to spend a lot on a very good meal. Some may see this as frivolous but then again, I wouldn't dream of spending more than 10K on a car, or I would never buy a plasma/LCD - you put your own value on your personal tastes and comforts.

However, if an expensive or even moderately expensive restaurant served up a mediocre or worse, poor meal, I would be upset.

The worst offenders IMO tend to be the 'mid-range' places - you know, restaurants that have a few Bridgestone/Egon Ronay plaques etc and higher than average prices - you know they're not going to be amazing but you would still rightly expect a decent meal.

Consider the ubiquitous pasta/salmon dish. What you'll get is a suspiciously shallow dish, filled with *packet/dried* pasta, a few flakes of smoked salmon, in cream, with a few leaves of basil. And that's literally it.
No other ingredients or seasoning, and no thought or time invested.

The ingredient costs are minimal and a *child *could make it. 

It's perfectly edible but it's something I'd knock together after coming home from a night on the beer. If it cost under €10 I wouldn't mind (because it's not worth any more than that) but I will not pay €20 odd for a joke of a 'meal' like that. At the very least I would expect fresh pasta. You'll probably be given that awful powdered Parmesan as well.

It's this kind of thing that gets me.

And don't even get me started on these places failing in the remedial task of cooking a steak as requested - it's almost always overcooked...

(If I'm starting to sound like Michael Winner - shoot me)


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## Purple (2 Oct 2007)

Caveat said:


> I agree.
> 
> I suppose it depends on whether or not you are a 'foodie'.
> I would be prepared to spend a lot on a very good meal. Some may see this as frivolous but then again, I wouldn't dream of spending more than 10K on a car, or I would never buy a plasma/LCD - you put your own value on your personal tastes and comforts.
> ...



I agree with everything you have said.
In my opinion an expensive restaurant is anywhere that will cost over €80 per head for a meal, not including wine. These are usually good value. It's the places that you have described that are most likely to serve bad or mediocre food for €40+ a head, the sort of stuff that would be half the price and better in a good pub.  
(I also agree that it's very hard to get a properlycooked steak in Ireland, and don't get me started on how we over-cook pork.)


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## efm (2 Oct 2007)

Purple said:


> I agree with everything you have said.
> In my opinion an expensive restaurant is anywhere that will cost over €80 per head for a meal, not including wine. These are usually good value. It's the places that you have described that are most likely to serve bad or mediocre food for €40+ a head, the sort of stuff that would be half the price and better in a good pub.
> (I also agree that it's very hard to get a properlycooked steak in Ireland, and don't get me started on how we over-cook pork.)


 
I also agree. My experience to date has been that I have a much greater chance of having a dinning experience that I really enjoy at the top end of the market (ie over 80 euro a head). And for me the setting and service is also an important part of the dining experience. 

But that doesn't stop the search for the 80 euro per head meal at 20 euro per head prices!!


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## Caveat (2 Oct 2007)

efm said:


> But that doesn't stop the search for the 80 euro per head meal at 20 euro per head prices!!


 
I had such a meal on Sunday as per the above mentioned post.

The place is an absolute joy: shabby chic surroundings (& staff  ), unpretentious, relatively unsophisticated food - but natural, beautifully cooked, flavoured and presented.

E.g. An absolute *slab *of a steak, well hung and cooked to perfection, veg that is *not* overcooked, perfect roast potatoes, proper home made sauces (you can just tell), perfectly decadent deserts (accompanied by home made ice cream) etc etc...

All with friendly attentive service.

And no, I'm not telling you where it is...


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## Purple (2 Oct 2007)

I take it from your location that you are in Cork... am I correct?


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## Caveat (2 Oct 2007)

Purple said:


> I take it from your location that you are in Cork... am I correct?


 
Not even close Purple... 

BTW it isn't an anti Dublin 'Location' I was just sick of posters often assuming everyone else was from Dublin


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## BOXtheFOX (2 Oct 2007)

I agree with Caveat. I can knock up a pretty good pasta and stir fry myself so when I go out for a meal these dishes are given a miss. You can get great ingredients for a good stir fry in the large Chinese Supermarket on Drury Street. B.T.W.
Just another thing. While in France my wife brought one of her medical prescriptions with her. A pack of 24 tablets that cost €18 here were only €12 there. Another saving.
I must admit you can get a nice fillet steak in The Leopardstown Inn, haven't been there in a while but I feel a trip coming on......


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## Purple (2 Oct 2007)

BOXtheFOX said:


> I agree with Caveat. I can knock up a pretty good pasta and stir fry myself so when I go out for a meal these dishes are given a miss. You can get great ingredients for a good stir fry in the large Chinese Supermarket on Drury Street. B.T.W.
> Just another thing. While in France my wife brought one of her medical prescriptions with her. A pack of 24 tablets that cost €18 here were only €12 there. Another saving.
> I must admit you can get a nice fillet steak in The Leopardstown Inn, haven't been there in a while but I feel a trip coming on......


Part of the reason that things are cheaper in France is that they earn less and pay more taxes. This applies to prescription drugs in particular. That said food in general is much better in France but that's what their good at.
I would never order pasta in a restaurant, or any other dish that comprises cheap ingredients that can be disguised by a heavy sauce.


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## Purple (2 Oct 2007)

Caveat said:


> Not even close Purple...
> 
> BTW it isn't an anti Dublin 'Location' I was just sick of posters often assuming everyone else was from Dublin


Ah, so you are "down the counrty" so.


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## Caveat (2 Oct 2007)

Purple said:


> Ah, so you are "down the counrty" so.


 
Yep  

And another thing...

Indian restaurants tend to provide great value - it's difficult to get a bad Indian IMO.  It's rare that they would attract wider critical acclaim though partly, I think, for two reasons: Few critics possess the requisite objective criteria to evaluate Indian restaurants; and they are constrained by their own 'ethnicity' - there are no surprises or innovations.

Often though I get the impression that every meal is merely a variant from a central 'pot' - but I don't really mind when it tastes so good.

However, there is supposed to be an Indian in Ardee, Co. Louth that bucks this trend.


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## elefantfresh (2 Oct 2007)

Used to be an Indian on Sth Georges St called the East end or the West End - can't remember. It was a great shop - very nice food and very reasonable and the staff were just great. I think its gone now though. Dunno why.


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## Protocol (2 Oct 2007)

I have been in Paris 3 times in the last 18 months, and eat out twice a day while there.

While it is obviously possible to pay huge money for meals there, my main point is that there are many *more mid-market good value restaurants/bistros* over there.

Examples: we paid 15 euro for a 3-course lunch just off the Blvd. Montparnasse, in a restaurant called Wadja.  There wasn’t much choice, and the dishes were simple, but it was such good value.  See here:
http://www.timeout.com/paris/guidevenue/1497/Wadja.html

Similarly, look at the menu in the famous Chartier restaurant (e.g. soup for 2 euro, rump steak for 10.50):

http://www.restaurant-chartier.com/www/visit/atable.php

Here’s another one, the Polidor restaurant, with menus at 20 and 30 euro (increased recently), and wine at 2.50 for 50cl:

http://restaurantpolidor.info/lesmenus.htm


Another point: *steaks*.  While Irish beef is no doubt good quality, why are steaks here always 18-20-22 euro?  Whereas in central Paris, _steak frites_ are 11-13 euro?


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## Purple (2 Oct 2007)

Protocol said:


> While Irish beef is no doubt good quality, why are steaks here always 18-20-22 euro?  Whereas in central Paris, _steak frites_ are 11-13 euro?[/SIZE][/FONT]


 You can get a good steak in Kenya for less again, so what? Different countries have different cost bases.


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## BOXtheFOX (2 Oct 2007)

Purple said:


> Part of the reason that things are cheaper in France is that they earn less and pay more taxes. This applies to prescription drugs in particular. That said food in general is much better in France but that's what their good at.
> I would never order pasta in a restaurant, or any other dish that comprises cheap ingredients that can be disguised by a heavy sauce.


 
Because the French earn less and pay more taxes the drug companies charge them less but in Ireland because we earn more and pay more taxes the cost of drugs is dearer. So the price of drugs is linked to earnings and tax rates?
Maybe a good reason to retire to France for several months of the year and keep the higher pension and less tax deduction. My pension could go a lot further.


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## Protocol (2 Oct 2007)

The cost base in central Paris would be nearly as high as Dublin.

Their VAT is either 19.6 or 20.6%, similar to ours.

Their PRSI is higher than ours.

Wage rates may be different, but not hugely.

Overheads may be higher in Ireland.

Beer is actually dearer in Paris, up to 9 euro per pint.  Though you can get 500ml for 4 euro.

But, still, steaks are substantially dearer in Ireland?


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## Protocol (2 Oct 2007)

Here's how drug prices are set in Ireland.

The ex-factory price is linked to the prices in a few countries in northern Europe.

The 3 big drug wholesalers add a 17.64% margin when selling to retailers.  When selling to hospitals, the wholesale margin is 0% on large orders.

Then retail pharmacies add a 50% margin if selling to a private/DPS patient.

For medical cards, the retail margin is 0%.

I suspect the reason for our higher drug prices is the generous wholesale and retail margins.


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## Caveat (2 Oct 2007)

Protocol said:


> But, still, steaks are substantially dearer in Ireland?


 
Not the point maybe, but I'd be happy to pay the price if the alternative is French steaks - I've had many a good meal in France but never a good steak.


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## Caveat (2 Oct 2007)

elefantfresh said:


> Used to be an Indian on Sth Georges St called the East end or the West End - can't remember. It was a great shop - very nice food and very reasonable and the staff were just great. I think its gone now though. Dunno why.


 
There was a very good place around South William St? It was on a corner - can't remember the name but something typical like _Taj Mahal_ - the whole place was quite open plan and airy, with steps leading up from the reception to the dining area.

Don't know if it still exists but had a few great meals there about 10 years ago.


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## Cahir (2 Oct 2007)

Caveat said:


> There was a very good place around South William St? It was on a corner - can't remember the name but something typical like _Taj Mahal_ - the whole place was quite open plan and airy, with steps leading up from the reception to the dining area.
> 
> Don't know if it still exists but had a few great meals there about 10 years ago.



Eastern Balti House (also known as Eastend Tandoori)?  It was on the corner near Stephens Green Centre.  It's now Maloti and not as good as it was but still tasty.


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## Caveat (2 Oct 2007)

Cahir said:


> Eastern Balti House (also known as Eastend Tandoori)? It was on the corner near Stephens Green Centre. It's now Maloti and not as good as it was but still tasty.


 
That might've been it alright - sounds like maybe the same place that Elefantfresh was talking about?

BTW, any recomendations for a city centre Indian for when I'm in Dublin - you reckon this Maloti is still worth going to?


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## Cahir (2 Oct 2007)

Caveat said:


> That might've been it alright - sounds like maybe the same place that Elefantfresh was talking about?
> 
> BTW, any recomendations for a city centre Indian for when I'm in Dublin - you reckon this Maloti is still worth going to?



Maloti doesn't have as many veggie dishes as most Indians so it's not my favourite but it's still nice.  I prefer Jewel in the Crown, also on South William Street.  Don't make the mistake of going next door to A Taste of India, it's possibly the worst Indian in Dublin.

The one opposite Maloti (with the guy in the hat thing) is quite nice too but the portions are a little small.


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## Caveat (2 Oct 2007)

Thanks for that!

(& sorry BoxtheFox  )


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## Jock04 (2 Oct 2007)

Caveat said:


> Not the point maybe, but I'd be happy to pay the price if the alternative is French steaks - I've had many a good meal in France but never a good steak.


 

Hmmm.........did you horse it down, Caveat?


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## Caveat (2 Oct 2007)

Jock04 said:


> Hmmm.........did you horse it down, Caveat?


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## BOXtheFOX (2 Oct 2007)

www.*you**tube*.com/watch?v=7vU2kkJZYxs


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## rabbit (2 Oct 2007)

Purple said:


> .
> In my opinion an expensive restaurant is anywhere that will cost over €80 per head for a meal, not including wine. These are usually good value.


lol   € 80 for a meal is only good value to those who know not the value of € 80.     More than half the people in the world eat a months food for less than half that.


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## cole (2 Oct 2007)

Caveat said:


> BTW, any recomendations for a city centre Indian for when I'm in Dublin - you reckon this Maloti is still worth going to?


 
Try Tulsi on Bagott St, wonderful food and the lunch menu is very reasonable, about €11 for a 4 course meal. Now that _is_ value!


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## room305 (3 Oct 2007)

rabbit said:


> lol   € 80 for a meal is only good value to those who know not the value of € 80.     More than half the people in the world eat a months food for less than half that.



This is a fairly pretentious comment and deliberately misses the point Purple has been making in this thread.

Roman Abramovich might blow more on one single meal than I would spend on food in a year but that doesn't preclude him from getting good value for it. Value is a very subjective thing.


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## Purple (3 Oct 2007)

room305 said:


> This is a fairly pretentious comment and deliberately misses the point Purple has been making in this thread.
> 
> Roman Abramovich might blow more on one single meal than I would spend on food in a year but that doesn't preclude him from getting good value for it. Value is a very subjective thing.


 Spot on.


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## elefantfresh (3 Oct 2007)

> Roman Abramovich might blow more on one single meal than I would spend on food in a year but that doesn't preclude him from getting good value for it. Value is a very subjective thing.



Perhaps he should spend it on a decent manager!


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## Purple (3 Oct 2007)

elefantfresh said:


> Perhaps he should spend it on a decent manager!



Food for thought alright


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## Jock04 (3 Oct 2007)

Yeah, his last course of chicken piri-piri had gone a little stale & was causing him indigestion.


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## elefantfresh (3 Oct 2007)

> Yeah, his last course of chicken piri-piri had gone a little stale & was causing him indigestion.


Yes, he should Cech that out.


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## rabbit (3 Oct 2007)

room305 said:


> Roman Abramovich might blow more on one single meal than I would spend on food in a year but that doesn't preclude him from getting good value for it. Value is a very subjective thing.


 
You miss the point completely.   We are not talking about the value one individual  gets for their money.  Personaling that individual to be an extremely rich person like  Roman A.  is merely going off on a tangent.   We are talking about rip off Ireland, where often food which costs 20 or 30 euro elsewhere costs double that here.  Dine abroad, and you will see what I mean.   Not only that, but you generally get much better service in places like the States.


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## Purple (3 Oct 2007)

rabbit said:


> You miss the point completely.   We are not talking about the value one individual  gets for their money.  Personaling that individual to be an extremely rich person like  Roman A.  is merely going off on a tangent.   We are talking about rip off Ireland, where often food which costs 20 or 30 euro elsewhere costs double that here.  Dine abroad, and you will see what I mean.   Not only that, but you generally get much better service in places like the States.


 Take the meal for €80 per head in Dublin city centre (or Cork or Galway or Limerick), the same meal in Spain will be cheaper. That just tells us that income levels are lower in Spain. The same meal in Tanzania will cost less again. Does that mean that you get ripped off in Spain? Of course not. 
You can only judge value relative to those supplying the same sector operating in the same market.


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## ClubMan (3 Oct 2007)

Good man _Purple _- I don't have time for it these days but you are holding the fort well there.


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## rabbit (3 Oct 2007)

Purple said:


> Take the meal for €80 per head in Dublin city centre (or Cork or Galway or Limerick), the same meal in Spain will be cheaper. That just tells us that income levels are lower in Spain. The same meal in Tanzania will cost less again. Does that mean that you get ripped off in Spain? Of course not.
> You can only judge value relative to those supplying the same sector operating in the same market.


 
For one thing, we are all in the the same market now - the common market.   Paying 50 euro for a bottle of wine ( and from a surly waiter in Ireland ) that is 10 euro in France does not make it good value in Ireland ...unless you have lost the run of yourself.    The little bit of recession that will surely come will do no harm to those who think the world owes them a living.


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## Purple (3 Oct 2007)

ClubMan said:


> Good man _Purple _- I don't have time for it these days but you are holding the fort well there.


Thanks, you must be snowed under with ironing....


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## ClubMan (3 Oct 2007)

rabbit said:


> For one thing, we are all in the the same market now - the common market.


Yes - but there are still significant national/regional variations such as different tax regimes, different interest rate regions (e.g. eurozone and others), different cost bases (e.g. transport etc.), different supply/demand environments and so on that mean that prices still vary widely.


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## Purple (3 Oct 2007)

rabbit said:


> For one thing, we are all in the the same market now - the common market.   Paying 50 euro for a bottle of wine ( and from a surly waiter in Ireland ) that is 10 euro in France does not make it good value in Ireland ...unless you have lost the run of yourself.    The little bit of recession that will surely come will do no harm to those who think the world owes them a living.


So you think that rents are the same in rural Poland as they are in Dublin? What about insurance and labour rates? What about the tax on the wine, is that the same all over the EU? (hint: No it's not) What about the cost base of every supplier they have, are they the same in Dublin and every other place in Europe?
Why do you think that more restaurants fail here than any other business? Do you think it's because they are all "ripping us off"?
Go to London and have a nosh-up in a two or three star Michelin restaurant. When you get back you will think that Kevin Thornton is giving the food away. As I said, it’s all relative.
It's funny but I have never met anyone who owns a small business that thinks the world owes them a living.
By the way, a bottle of wine that costs €10 in France should cost about €30 here. The normal mark up for wine in a restaurant is about 100%. It’s often the only area that they make money so if you are looking for value you can get it by only drinking tap water and knowing that you are eating at cost.


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## ubiquitous (4 Oct 2007)

rabbit said:


> We are talking about rip off Ireland, where often food which costs 20 or 30 euro elsewhere costs double that here.  Dine abroad, and you will see what I mean.   Not only that, but you generally get much better service in places like the States.



If Irish restaurants were able to eliminate taxes and much of their payroll bills from their prices, as US restaurants do, their menus would be at least as cheap as their counterparts in the US. When dining in the States, don't forget the effect of the combination of tips and taxes on top of a price which initially looks low but ends up high by the time you pay the bill.



rabbit said:


> For one thing, we are all in the the same market now - the common market.



I haven't heard of the "common market" since the early '80s. Maybe it still exists? Once upon a time it was supposed to denote a place where taxes, laws, wage rates and (dare I say it) prices would be the same or at similar levels within its territory. As Morrissey once said "very nice, very nice, very nice. Oh but maybe in the next world".



> The little bit of recession that will surely come will do no harm to those who think the world owes them a living.


Be careful what you wish for. The last time we had a recession in Ireland the people who suffered most were the people who  could not afford to eat in any sort of restaurant.


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## Caveat (4 Oct 2007)

Regardless of external factors like tax, insurance etc, we are all guilty of adopting a cherry picking attitude to perceived 'value'.

Allowing for labour, materials, profit...whatever:

Should e.g. a Merc SL _really_ cost up to 300K?

It's arguably a better car in most respects than a Hyundai Coupé - but is it over _*15 times*_ better? Probably not.

Because food, like drinks and drugs, is a transient pleasure it can be difficult for some (who may regard food as little more than fuel) to understand that others may gain great pleasure from a luxurious, expertly cooked meal. And like the Merc owner, they are prepared to pay for it.

I too am prepared to pay (and have paid) €200 for a meal for two without wine. It's usually much better than a €50 meal for two - but again, probably not 4 times better. 

It goes without saying that 'value' cannot be measured and within reason, is completely subjective. 

I could almost guarantee for example that _rabbit_ has spent x amount of money on something that I would never dream of spending it on...


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## room305 (4 Oct 2007)

Caveat said:


> Regardless of external factors like tax, insurance etc, we are all guilty of adopting a cherry picking attitude to perceived 'value'.
> 
> Allowing for labour, materials, profit...whatever:
> 
> ...



Exactly, I consider a lot of this kind of stuff as essentially _price discrimination_. It's not so much that the Merc is 15 times better than the Hyundai, as someone is willing to pay 15 times more to have it.

Think of economy and first class on a British Airways flight. There's no way BA would justify the massive price differential on the basis of a few free drinks, extra legroom and more attention from the staff. So is it worth it? Is it good value? Obviously some people think so. As with the expensive Merc, a large factor of this is probably the exclusivity set by the price (can't imagine first class seats would command the same price if they were distributed randomly around the plane).

Although it is said to have a lot of societal benefits (i.e. costs are weighted according to those who can afford to pay more), people usually balk at outright price discrimination (exact same good, different price depending who is buying). Hence the rise of premium branding!


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## Bazoo (6 Oct 2007)

elefantfresh said:


> Used to be an Indian on Sth Georges St called the East end or the West End - can't remember. It was a great shop - very nice food and very reasonable and the staff were just great. I think its gone now though. Dunno why.



That was East End Tandoori. A fantastic place. Was very disappointed when it closed. It's now Darwins which does great food but not cheap. For the poster who was looking for a recommendation on an Indian, jaipur on George's Street is the best I've been to in Dublin. Lovely restaurant, great food, huge portions! Think they might have opened up another branch or two but haven't visited those.


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## Purple (6 Oct 2007)

room305 said:


> Exactly, I consider a lot of this kind of stuff as essentially _price discrimination_. It's not so much that the Merc is 15 times better than the Hyundai, as someone is willing to pay 15 times more to have it.
> 
> Think of economy and first class on a British Airways flight. There's no way BA would justify the massive price differential on the basis of a few free drinks, extra legroom and more attention from the staff. So is it worth it? Is it good value? Obviously some people think so. As with the expensive Merc, a large factor of this is probably the exclusivity set by the price (can't imagine first class seats would command the same price if they were distributed randomly around the plane).
> 
> Although it is said to have a lot of societal benefits (i.e. costs are weighted according to those who can afford to pay more), people usually balk at outright price discrimination (exact same good, different price depending who is buying). Hence the rise of premium branding!



Good post, sums it up quite well.


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