# Pregnancy and the work environment.



## AndyDub (12 Jul 2007)

My fiance is now close to 7 months pregnant. She works as a sales assistant in a shop... There are no seats in the premises to sit down and rest during the day except in the kitchen area. Also as the stock room is downstairs she has to make 30-40 trips down and up each day.
I've already sent her employer a letter from our consultant that she must be provided with frequent breaks... however he has done nothing about it and there is still nowhere to sit down. I've noticed that pregnant women in other shops just work the reg so they can sit down. I'm starting to get really annoyed about it at this stage as I feel that they are doing this to encourage her to jack it in or go on sick leave which would be unpaid. Any opinions on what to do? I read the employment act and didn't see anything to relate to specifically.


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## aircobra19 (12 Jul 2007)

AFAIK your terms and conditions don't change because you are pregnant. She could take her maternity leave early.


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## AndyDub (12 Jul 2007)

AFAIK the employer has to provide a healthy and safe place to work.


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## ClubMan (12 Jul 2007)

aircobra19 said:


> AFAIK your terms and conditions don't change because you are pregnant.


That's my understanding too. 


AndyDub said:


> AFAIK the employer has to provide a healthy and safe place to work.


Any use?


> *Pregnant employees*
> 
> An employer should carry out separate risk assessments in relation to pregnant employees. If there are particular risks to an employee's pregnancy, these should be either removed or the employee moved away from them. If neither of these options is possible, the employee should be given health and safety leave from work, which may continue up the beginning of maternity leave. If a doctor certifies that night work would be unsuitable for a pregnant employee, the employee must be given alternative work or health and safety leave.
> 
> ...


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## nelly (12 Jul 2007)

The employer must reassess her workstation (counter assistant so therefore counter) as risks and hazards are different for pregnant people.however if she has not gotten a letter from her doctor telling her she needs to rotate her job then why would her employer change the rules for her. She should be a bit more assertive to be honest ie request the employer for to avoid completely the sock room or limit to 1 hour max her work in the stock room (carrying no very heavy stuff mind) and the she is facing off stock and on register for the other part of the day 1/3 of the time on a chair at the register - this has to be backed up by a doctors recommendation if teh employer is uncooperative. Usually this is fear of change. 
Occupational health is a little different for pregnant folks as it is not an illness and so the employer has to for all intents and purposes "bend the rules" for one person on a team to comply with the law on the issue - as seen by the co-workers that is. Employers are wary of doing this as it can cause all sorts of rumblings among the other staff unless dealt with in a proper way. proper communication has to be paramount and the pregnant employee cannot be allowed to use her "condition" to slack off. (which i doubt she is as what gain has she when her sick leave, the alternative to work is unpaid leave)
There is law on the issue Pregnant employees regulations 2000. so if you feel upset then you should read up on these and know your rights.


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## ClubMan (12 Jul 2007)

nelly said:


> There is law on the issue Pregnant employees regulations 2000. so if you feel upset then you should read up on these and know your rights.


See here.


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## aircobra19 (12 Jul 2007)

AndyDub said:


> AFAIK the employer has to provide a healthy and safe place to work.



Wasn't aware of anything specific but this might help.

[broken link removed]
[broken link removed]


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## nelly (12 Jul 2007)

thanks Clubman. 
Just to add. most large stores have supervisors and SME have managers who may not be so aware of these laws and when it is introduced to them (in a non-confrontational way of course) are more than happy to comply. I suggest your girlfriend meets with the boss or supervisor and sets out her stall so to speak. An ounce of honey and all that. But the doctors note will always carry weight - she is fit to work, but with work tasks revised as appropriate.


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## AndyDub (12 Jul 2007)

Thank you all. We were hoping that the employer might adopt a commonsense approach, but unfortunately hasn't been the case. She was promised a chair last month (verbally) but none has materialised.


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## aircobra19 (12 Jul 2007)

I assume there isn't a union. 

I guess you just have lean a little more on them with a Doc's Letter, and perhaps put more pressure on them. Its probably just laziness it hasn't been sorted. Can she take a chair from the canteen?


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## AndyDub (12 Jul 2007)

aircobra19 said:


> .... Can she take a chair from the canteen?


no... apparently the boss doesn't want prospective customers to see the staff sitting down.


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## AndyDub (12 Jul 2007)

nelly said:


> thanks Clubman.
> Just to add. most large stores have supervisors and SME have managers who may not be so aware of these laws and when it is introduced to them (in a non-confrontational way of course) are more than happy to comply. I suggest your girlfriend meets with the boss or supervisor and sets out her stall so to speak. An ounce of honey and all that. But the doctors note will always carry weight - she is fit to work, but with work tasks revised as appropriate.


Its a small shop, with 4 people max working on any given day, so the manager definitely knows the story.


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## AndyDub (12 Jul 2007)

aircobra19 said:


> Wasn't aware of anything specific but this might help.
> 
> [broken link removed]
> [broken link removed]


 
actually those links are very interesting... Thanks AirCobra.


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## aircobra19 (12 Jul 2007)

AndyDub said:


> no... apparently the boss doesn't want prospective customers to see the staff sitting down.



IMO. That puts a completely different light on it. Its not something that haven't done yet. But something they have no intention of doing ever.


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## AndyDub (12 Jul 2007)

aircobra19 said:


> IMO. That puts a completely different light on it. Its not something that haven't done yet. But something they have no intention of doing ever.


 
I was thinking the same, but they would still have to make a reasonable effort to be accomodating. I know is she takes either health and safety leave or early maternity leave they wont pay her. Of couse the health of mother and baby is paramount so we might have to go that route anyway.


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## Nige (12 Jul 2007)

Andy,

she could take her maternity leave now (subject to giving notice to the employer). It would leave her less time after the birth, but it sounds like she should look at working elsewhere anyway.


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## ClubMan (12 Jul 2007)

AndyDub said:


> I know is she takes either health and safety leave ... they wont pay her.


Not according to the _CitizensInformation _link that I posted above.


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## cruchan09 (12 Jul 2007)

If an employee informs her employer that she is pregnant they must carry out a pregnant employee risk assessment. This assess the work carried out by the employee and its potential risk to her or her unborn childs safety. If changes in work practicses are needed to protect the employees or unborn childs safety then they must be implemented, or else the employee must have her working conditions changed and as a last resort health and safety leave may be required if changes in working conditions are not practicable. 

Under the maternity protection act the employer is also obliged to provide a place for a pregnant employee to sit or to lie down.

Im my experience changes in a pregnant employees working conditions in the retail  sector generally come down to allowing them to sit at the register; allowing frequent breaks; removing them from manual handling / excessive carrying; removing them from handling large volumes of cash and any other reccomendations made by her obgny. 

I would suggest that your finance make contact with the HSA (they normally take a keen interest in the flouting of the pregnant employee regulations) or her union if she is being treated this badly.


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## A-Z Safety (12 Jul 2007)

I am a health and safety consultant, should you want to give me a buzz send me a pm and ill give you my number

as the previous poster noted, the employer has a *legal obligation to carry out a comprehensive risk assessment on notification of an employee being pregnant. *was this carried out?

in addition the employer is obliged to carry out regular risk assessments to ensure all new risks/ changing circumstances are taken account of.

these risk assessments *must *be documented and copies supplied to your wife (which she should show to her doctor)

with regard to H&S leave-this should only be taken when an employee is unable to carry out any duties in the workplace, from reading this post your wife is able to carry out her duties, she is just looking for a chair while she does so.  in this case the employer is breaking the law. 

please feel free to pm me for my number and i will give you any help that i can in relation to this matter. alternatively you could make a complaint to the HSA who will not be shy about issuing information to this employer to set him straight on his responsibilities.

good luck and let us know how you get on
a-z safety statement


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## nelly (13 Jul 2007)

A-Z Safety said:


> from reading this post your wife is able to carry out her duties, she is just looking for a chair while she does so.  in this case the employer is breaking the law


The employer is not breaking the law by not providing a chair AFAIK. a chair was never there to begin with and an employer may argue that it is not suitable (not enough space for example). If the employee cannot do the job without modifications to the workspace then i would say she may fall into the  "not fit for work" which she was hired to do. Hense she should take a softly softly assertive approach before informing HSA etc. 
just my take


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## A-Z Safety (13 Jul 2007)

i completely disagree.

Irish Health and Safety Legislation is based around the principle of 'reasonably practicable'.

An employer needs to do what is reasonable in every circumstance.

Is it reasonable that this employer will not allow a heavily pregnant employee to sit at her workstation because he does not want his customers  to see his staff sitting at work.  it is unreasonable.

in addition is it reasonable for a heavily pregnant employee to travel to a stockroom whic is downstairs, at least 30 times a day? I assume these trips to the stock room involve carrying stock?  is this reasonable? absolutely not.  Under no circumstances should a pregnant lady, never mind a heavily pregnant lady be carrying stock, or carrying out any manual handling activity she does not feel comfortable with.

At this stage the employer could be prosecuted for failure to carry out both a Manual handling risk assessment as well as an on-going Pregnant employee risk assessment.  

Has your wife been given manual handling training? Then he could also be prosecuted under this heading as she is undergoing MH tasks throughout the day.

I would certainly be taking this action further, its ridiculous in this day and age and with the amount of legislation covering Pregnant Employees this is going on.


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## cruchan09 (13 Jul 2007)

Irrespective of the fact that your wife is pregnant best practice from an ergonomics and manual handling perspective would be to always offer employees the choice of sitting or standing when working if this is possible. Just look at the major supermaket chains were the guys on the registers have a choise, some will be sitting, some will be standing. Just because a piece of equipment was never there to begin with does not mean that it should not be provided when required............ahh sure nobody ever got their hand trapped in that machine so we dont need a guard - Ask Smurfit if that attitude goes down well with the HSA and the courts (€1m fine for two workplace accidents involving same machine).


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## A-Z Safety (13 Jul 2007)

crughan i completely agree with you

If you read the HSA guidance and also HSE guidance (best practice in Ireland) in reation to pregnant employees, the guidance will keep reminding the reader that each pregnancy is different, no two pregnant employees will feel the same. while one will feel quite comfortable working right up the the final few days before the birth, another may need to begin leave at 7  months.  

Because of these differences all tasks, adjustements to working practices, work stations and any necessary changes or controls which may need to be brought in are evaluated on the basis of a comprehensive risk assessment.  This risk assessment must be done in conjunction with the employee and reviewed regularly.

I really hope you both get this sorted out, Im sure you have enough going on with out this unreasonable so and so refusing to let your wife sit down. its ridiculous really it really infuriates me i have to say!


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## nelly (13 Jul 2007)

I suppose I am leaning towards more of the devils advocate as there are plenty advocating for the pregnant lady here - the suggestion that the boss does not want customers to see a pregnant lady on a chair is possibly bias but it does lead me to suspect that the boss is not well versed in H&S law and so needs to be introduced to it.
However, if you employ a person to go to the stock room 30 times a day and stand at a counter at the busy times serving customers (thinking of say a make up counter one cannot be on a chair when reaching to shelves etc,) well if as assessment says she should not be doing any manual handling or standing for periods, is she "fit for work"? the work she was hired to do. Shoud you employ someone else to do her job while paying her to be on "light duties" effectively costing the company double? 
Just a view from the other side.


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## AndyDub (13 Jul 2007)

nelly said:


> The employer is not breaking the law by not providing a chair AFAIK. a chair was never there to begin with and an employer may argue that it is not suitable (not enough space for example). If the employee cannot do the job without modifications to the workspace then i would say she may fall into the "not fit for work" which she was hired to do. Hense she should take a softly softly assertive approach before informing HSA etc.
> just my take


 
Not having any chairs on the shop floor is apparently 'head office policy'. 
Is the gist of your message that sales people should not get pregnant or people that want to have children shouldn't be sales people???... both wrong in my view and equal opportunity law would suggest otherwise dont you think?


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## nelly (13 Jul 2007)

AndyDub said:


> Not having any chairs on the shop floor is apparently 'head office policy'.


Might i suggest you request a reason for this policy - perhaps a risk assessmetn or safety statement before implying that there should be a chair provided wherever a pregnant person works.  


AndyDub said:


> Is the gist of your message that sales people should not get pregnant or people that want to have children shouldn't be sales people???...


 What i am saying is that people are in business to be in business and this means they must make decisions taking legal restraints - H&S too into consideration too. If there are rasonable reasons why chairs cannot be placed at counters then employees must take that on board too.  


AndyDub said:


> both wrong in my view and equal opportunity law would suggest otherwise dont you think?


I absolutely agree. 

just an asside: Another disadvantage to being preganant and out of the workforce for 6-8 months at a time is the fact that male collegues working teh same job who do not have to take this time can clock up this to get the edge over you at an interview for promotion etc. This is legal and to my mind also unfair to pregnant women who through no fault of their own have to take time off to have their children or a particularly tough pregnancy. So I add this just to say that life is not fair, it is what it is.


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## cruchan09 (13 Jul 2007)

Nelly, I take your point and as somebody who has previously provided a lot of consultancy to major retail chains the same question regarding 'fit for work' is often asked by them. However in this case the employee would appear to be 'fit for work', but her productivity is reduced. This is the exact type of scenario that the maternity protection legislation was designed for in order to prevent pregnant employees losing their jobs or having their pay and conditions reduced.

In reality putting a pregnant employee on h&s leave is fraught with dangers from an Equality and IR point of view. Pregnant employees in Ireland are 'bullet proof' and in reality any changes in their working conditions that can be made to accommodate them should be made. You would be a long time arguing to an equality tribunal that not providing a chair for a pregnant employee to sit on was a reasonable course of action, especially if her obgny stated the need for this in writing.

As you say in this case it would appear to be ignorance on the part of her manager or her parent company (I am guessing that they are UK or NI based on my experience) of her rights that may be causing the problems. I have come across worse cases of poor treatment of pregnant employees though....in one case I dealt with a branch manager had told a pregnant employee that pregnancy was a condition not an illness and to get over it and keep doing her job....not a very clever thing to say in this day and age.

Safety legislation can cause some smaller companies problems in scenarios such as this but it is there to protect all employees, not just pregnant ones. Always ask yourself, 'would I want my mother / sister / wife / gf treated in this way?


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## nelly (13 Jul 2007)

cruchan09, thanks for your reply which i do think has kinda put a blanace on what i suggested in earlier posts, ie Doctors note and a bit of a softly softly approach armed with the Preganncy H&S law knowledge.


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## aircobra19 (13 Jul 2007)

Could it be argued that this is constuctive dismissal?


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## cruchan09 (13 Jul 2007)

In my experience it could be, as I said earlier pregnany employees are 'bullet proof' under Irish legislation.


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## AndyDub (27 Jul 2007)

cruchan09 said:


> In my experience it could be, as I said earlier pregnany employees are 'bullet proof' under Irish legislation.


 
I might need that actually. Two days ago she had a consultants appointment, her assistant manager told her she'd have to change it at the last minute. Yesterday my fiance's maternity cover started work, coincidentally the shop manager said to my fiance that she should leave 2 weeks earlier (unpaid) before the official maternity leave starts, my fiance said no thanks as we need the money to pay the hospital, afterwhich he said she should change to a public hospital if she cant afford it. I am pretty sure he cannot say that, any opinions?


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## aircobra19 (27 Jul 2007)

Well you need to give "4 weeks' written notice" before you take it. 

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/c...conditions/leave-and-holidays/maternity_leave



> If you need further information about maternity leave you should contact the Equality Authority.
> If you have a dispute with your employer about maternity leave you may make a complaint to a Rights Commissioner using the [broken link removed]
> At least 6 weeks before your baby's due date you should apply to the Maternity Benefit Section of the Department of Social and Family Affairs for Maternity Benefit.
> 
> ...


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## cruchan09 (27 Jul 2007)

From the 1994 Maternity Protection Act:
*15.*—(1) For the purpose of receiving ante-natal or post-natal care or both, an employee shall be entitled to time off from her work, without loss of pay (this was not changed in the 2004 Maternity Protection Act)

It is unreasonable for your employer to ask you to change ante natal visits with little or no notice. However, you are supposed to give them two weeks notice in writing of all ante natal visits, so they could argue that they did not get this notice and that your visit was a surprise to them and they had not planned for your absence. Obviously they can ask you to do it as a 'favour' to them and if there was a good working relationship then this would not be such an issue. However in this case it sounds like the pregnant employee is being set up for a constructive dismissal. This is further shown by the request to take an additional two weeks unpaid maternity leave - that is constructive dismissal. You need to talk to your union rep or better still contact the Equality Authority about this ASAP. This has changed from a safety issue to an employment practices issue. Record details of all conversations and confrontations with management, and make sure you note any witnessess, the dates and any phrases used which you think are unacceptable (e.g. comments about your healthcare staus!).

Do not let them away with this.


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