# I don't think people understand seriousness of Ireland's problems



## RMCF (4 Nov 2009)

The last year of watching TV and discussions about our debt has been a real eye-opener, and indeed the last couple of weeks it has started to ramp up again with the impending strikes post-Budget.

Firstly, I appreciate that a lot of the trouble people have is the manner in which the banks and developers appear to have been saved without any repercussions for them. I'd be the 1st to cheer if I seen a few people banged up in jail, believe me.

But we have been seeing figures bandied around for over a year now, and indeed been told over and over how these are steadily getting worse. Yet it appears that not one single group in Irish society sees the need for them to take a hit, and a big hit at that.

We were told for 6 months that we would all have to take the pain, and many people sat on discussion progs and said they would take it. But everyone seems to be getting ready to fight, take to the streets or simply go on strike.

The Gov let public spending get out of control for many years, and it will have no option to reign it back in, and indeed make big cuts too. Private employees suffered this, but did not have the option of taking to the streets - they just had to go to the Benefits Office.

Does Irish society not realise the implications of this country going bust? That would be worse than the cuts that are coming, but many look like they will be happy to send the country into bankruptcy.


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## Joanne1 (4 Nov 2009)

I find all this talk about public sector strikes sickening.  How do they expect the economy to ever recover without cuts.  Likewise social welfare spending.

Not sure if people are unaware of risk of national bankruptcy or in denial or what the problem is..


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## DoctorEvil (4 Nov 2009)

I think that the problem is that the Govt is still in place.

So basically the people who let everything get to where it is are now the ones telling us that cuts are needed.

If we had had a general election I think the country would be more willing to take the pain.

Look I think all this talk of strikes is futile - the cuts will come and hopefully we can come out the other side.


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## truthseeker (4 Nov 2009)

DoctorEvil said:


> I think that the problem is that the Govt is still in place.
> 
> So basically the people who let everything get to where it is are now the ones telling us that cuts are needed.
> 
> ...


 
+1

People find the notion of the government who led us into dire straits being the ones to make the cuts unpalatable. A general election may not solve any practical problems (no matter who wades into this mess right now is going to have their hands full and may make no better a fist of it than the current gang), but it will certainly make people feel that they have a voice.

How would the people go about calling for a general election?


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## Howitzer (4 Nov 2009)

DoctorEvil said:


> If we had had a general election I think the country would be more willing to take the pain.


The only problem I have with that is that invariably the people who tell you excatly what cuts they would make aren't the ones who get elected. That's democracy for you.

It seems to me that a party who are completely in the s***ter but won't have to face the electorate for another 3.5 years would be more inclined to make the hard decisions.


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## Shawady (4 Nov 2009)

RMCF said:


> Yet it appears that not one single group in Irish society sees the need for them to take a hit, and a big hit at that.


 
This is the problem. I'm not trying to defend the union's stance but they are only doing what every other interest group is doing. Saying we need cuts but do it to someone else, not us!
There was someone on the Pat Kenny radio show last week discussing the possibility of cuts in child benefit and you swear the government were planning to throw people's kids on the streets. Even look at the response of minister's Cullen and O'Cuiv to the An Bord Snip report. Basically rubbishing the part that affects their department. Vincent De Paul said yesterday it would be immoral to cut social welfare, yet social welfare is the governments biggest bill.

I aggree with previous comments - this government has no credibility in looking for cuts. In fairness to Lenehin he was not a minister until 2007 but Cowen was Finance minister when a lot of ecnomists think the government's finances got out of control. Where is he now - the top job. It is hard to listen to him say 'We have to get real on spending'.


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## Purple (4 Nov 2009)

Shawady said:


> Vincent De Paul said yesterday it would be immoral to cut social welfare, yet social welfare is the governments biggest bill.


 I wouldn't mind what those well meaning fools say.

I agree with the OP and I agree that it’s hard to listen to Cowen, the man who bent over beside Bertie for all the vested interest groups over the last few years.
I do think that Lenehin is doing a very good lob (within the constraints of real-politic)


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## MOB (4 Nov 2009)

RMCF said:


> Firstly, I appreciate that a lot of the trouble people have is the manner in which the banks and developers appear to have been saved without any repercussions for them.



When we talk about the banks being 'saved' we need to look at what has happened and we need to look at what is likely to happen.  Firstl off, the banks are owned by shareholders.  Those shareholders have been almost completely wiped out.  So they have not been saved.   Of course, deposit holders and bond holders have been saved and I suppose there is some question as to whether the bond holders should have been saved.

Secondly, I don't know if it is ( yet) trus to say that bank management have been saved.  We are told that the days of silly bonus and salary levels are to be ended.  I think a lot of us have a hard time believing this.  A lot of us feel that the management have indeed been 'saved'.  I am reserving my opinion on this for at least 12 months.  I think we should all do likewise and save our anger unless it becomes clear that it is warranted.  It is, after all, still possible that the government - through NAMA - will finally put manners on the bankers.

Thirdly, we are told that developers have been saved.  This just isn't true - at least not yet.  It is, of course, possible that NAMA will be run in a way that is perceived to be 'soft' on developers.  I think that any government which does this will see a huge backlash.  The reality is that it is now politically easier to chase, and if necessary sink, developers than it is to somehow rescue them.   So I think we should reserve judgment here too.


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## lightswitch (4 Nov 2009)

Purple said:


> I wouldn't mind what those well meaning fools say.
> 
> I agree with the OP and I agree that it’s hard to listen to Cowen, the man who bent over beside Bertie for all the vested interest groups over the last few years.
> I do think that Lenehin is doing a very good lob (within the constraints of real-politic)


 

I do hope you never fall on hard times Purple.  There again instead of contacting the Vincent de Paul I guess you could eat your words, tasteless though they may be.


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## Purple (4 Nov 2009)

lightswitch said:


> I do hope you never fall on hard times Purple.  There again instead of contacting the Vincent de Paul I guess you could eat your words, tasteless though they may be.



When they are giving Christmas hampers to people earning over €50'000 a year, who have said they don't need them, then they are just that; well meaning fools. There are loads of great people doing great work with the worst off in our country but the VDP's policy of never saying no means that a large part of their resources are wasted.


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## liaconn (4 Nov 2009)

lightswitch said:


> I do hope you never fall on hard times Purple. There again instead of contacting the Vincent de Paul I guess you could eat your words, tasteless though they may be.


 
I agree. You may not concur with their views on social welfare payments, but they are not 'idiots'. I know people who give up large amounts of their free time to work for the V de P, including visiting people who have fallen on hard times, negotiating with banks for people who cant repay their mortgage, and sourcing santa presents for kids who wouldn't get anything otherwise. I don't see anything idiotic about that.
Also, they do say 'no'. I know of situations where people have been told that the VdeP will not provide expensive gifts for kids for instance.


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## Latrade (4 Nov 2009)

Sure, it'll all be grand in the end.


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## Green (4 Nov 2009)

I think the real title of this thread should be *I don't think people understand (the) seriousness of Ireland's problems and the linkage between these problems and our voting habits over the last fifteen years.*


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## Kine (4 Nov 2009)

Hey, Fitch have just downgraded Ireland's Sovereign Rating. Good times!*

*


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## Sunny (4 Nov 2009)

Kine said:


> Hey, Fitch have just downgraded Ireland's Sovereign Rating. Good times!


 

Quote from their press release:

"The Irish government's fiscal consolidation response to date has been impressive with cumulative savings of 5% of GDP implemented in 2009, and a planned further round of major spending cuts expected to be announced in December's budget," said Douglas Renwick, Associate Director in Fitch's Sovereign Group. "In addition, Fitch believes that NAMA is likely to be successful in stabilising and rehabilitating the banking sector, providing both solvency and liquidity support and mitigating pressures on the supply of new credit to industry and households."

As downgrades go, it was quiet a positive one.


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## Caveat (4 Nov 2009)

Latrade said:


> Sure, it'll all be grand in the end.


 
 Ha ha  Love it!

If you only knew how often I hear this on a daily basis. 

One of the many benefits of laid back rural life.


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## DerKaiser (4 Nov 2009)

liaconn said:


> I agree. You may not concur with their views on social welfare payments, but they are not 'idiots'. I know people who give up large amounts of their free time to work for the V de P, including visiting people who have fallen on hard times, negotiating with banks for people who cant repay their mortgage, and sourcing santa presents for kids who wouldn't get anything otherwise. I don't see anything idiotic about that.
> Also, they do say 'no'. I know of situations where people have been told that the VdeP will not provide expensive gifts for kids for instance.


 
What you've described there is targetted aid to those who really needed, and there's no doubt VdeP excel in this area.

I think they are being foolish by getting involved in the politics of the broader social welfare situation.

We need general expenditure cuts so that we do not run into a situation where those most in need of help could end up with nothing at all


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## Purple (4 Nov 2009)

liaconn said:


> I agree. You may not concur with their views on social welfare payments, but they are not 'idiots'. I know people who give up large amounts of their free time to work for the V de P, including visiting people who have fallen on hard times, negotiating with banks for people who cant repay their mortgage, and sourcing santa presents for kids who wouldn't get anything otherwise. I don't see anything idiotic about that.
> Also, they do say 'no'. I know of situations where people have been told that the VdeP will not provide expensive gifts for kids for instance.



If you are there on the 20th I'll give you the name and address of the person I am talking about.


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## Purple (4 Nov 2009)

DerKaiser said:


> What you've described there is targetted aid to those who really needed, and there's no doubt VdeP excel in this area.


 That's my point; they are not.


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## liaconn (4 Nov 2009)

Purple said:


> If you are there on the 20th I'll give you the name and address of the person I am talking about.


 
Bit unclear on this, but are you just using one example or are you saying that it is general practice in the Vincent de Paul to give hampers to people on good salaries??  Maybe I've picked you up wrong.


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## Towger (4 Nov 2009)

Would the last one out please turn out the lights.

As for the VdeP, I have relations who put may years into it but finally gave up after been sickened with the number of families they visited with large tvs and the latest playstations, but still claimed they could not put food on the table. That was in the early tiger years! 

This budget will (should be!!) mainly cuts, they also have a very big problem with most workers been taken out of the (PAYE) tax net. All thanks to Berties policy of raising the thresholds over the years, to take the lowest paid out of the system.


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## liaconn (4 Nov 2009)

Don't want to drag this off topic. I agree that there are people who spend their money carelessly and then look for handouts from charities or social welfare which would be better given elsewhere.  What I objected to was Purple's dismissal of the entire VdeP as 'idiots'.


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## Teatime (4 Nov 2009)

DoctorEvil said:


> I think that the problem is that the Govt is still in place.


 
I wish it were so but listening to the spoofing going on among FG & LAB TDs - I honestly think they dont have the heart to make the hard decisions.

I am worried now though. I think we're in too deep.


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## lightswitch (4 Nov 2009)

liaconn said:


> Don't want to drag this off topic. I agree that there are people who spend their money carelessly and then look for handouts from charities or social welfare which would be better given elsewhere. What I objected to was Purple's dismissal of the entire VdeP as 'idiots'.


 
Or even "well meaning fools"

I think Purple probably just mixes in a very small social circle.  Perhaps he should consider helping the V de P this year even if only to educate himself on how the other half live.


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## Purple (4 Nov 2009)

lightswitch said:


> Or even "well meaning fools"
> 
> I think Purple probably just mixes in a very small social circle.  Perhaps he should consider helping the V de P this year even if only to educate himself on how the other half live.



I've worked with them. I have also worked with other groups that help the homeless. I object to them giving Christmas hampers to people with a household income of €75'000 a year who have told them that they neither want nor need their help.
As for the "other half", it's more like the other 5%.


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## The_Banker (4 Nov 2009)

Granted, we are in hard times. Getting back to the original post I do believe Ireland is at a crossroads. Do we go down the road of high taxation or the road of unpalatable cuts.
The coming budget is probably one of the most important in the history of the state. I don't believe Ireland is as bad now as it was in the mid 80s but a bad budget now and we will get there.


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## csirl (4 Nov 2009)

DoctorEvil said:


> I think that the problem is that the Govt is still in place.
> 
> So basically the people who let everything get to where it is are now the ones telling us that cuts are needed.
> 
> ...


 
I agree with this. People would have a lot more buy in to the recovery plan and would be more willing to get behind it if there was a GA. 

People will also feel much better after venting their anger at wreckless politicians who are responsible for the mess. 

And I think the global community would give us more support. At the moment, Cowen & Co are giving the world the impression that they are totally out of their depth. As a result, few members of the global community are willing to invest in Ireland Inc.. A change of leadership would restore confidence in this country send a message to the International community that Ireland Inc does not tolerate incompetence.


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## lightswitch (4 Nov 2009)

csirl said:


> I agree with this. People would have a lot more buy in to the recovery plan and would be more willing to get behind it if there was a GA.
> 
> People will also feel much better after venting their anger at wreckless politicians who are responsible for the mess.
> 
> And I think the global community would give us more support. At the moment, Cowen & Co are giving the world the impression that they are totally out of their depth. As a result, few members of the global community are willing to invest in Ireland Inc.. A change of leadership would restore confidence in this country send a message to the International community that Ireland Inc does not tolerate incompetence.


 
Very much + 1


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## sunrock (4 Nov 2009)

Pundits have been saying that if the government don`t implement the necessary cuts the IMF will come in and dictate the necessary cuts to us.This was viewed with horror by the same pundits,but what difference does it make who authorises the cuts?
Calling for a general election is futile and wouldn`t change a thing even if no FF T.D. was returned......we would still be in the same position.
Does anyone remember back last year when the teachers unions were up in arms over the teacher pupil ratio.....they have gone very quiet on that issue,being more concerned now about looming pay cuts.
The unions and the public can protest all they want...it`s like letting off steam and then the cuts will come and then the same people will gather to protest the wave of cuts that will come after that.
Charley Haughey once said that if you were low in money....it didn`t mean you couldn`t enjoy yourself and that is true enough.However he also demonstrated that you could have an extravagant lifestyle if one had plenty of dosh


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## S.L.F (5 Nov 2009)

DoctorEvil said:


> I think that the problem is that the Govt is still in place.
> 
> So basically the people who let everything get to where it is are now the ones telling us that cuts are needed.
> 
> ...


 


csirl said:


> I agree with this. People would have a lot more buy in to the recovery plan and would be more willing to get behind it if there was a GA.
> 
> People will also feel much better after venting their anger at wreckless politicians who are responsible for the mess.
> 
> And I think the global community would give us more support. At the moment, Cowen & Co are giving the world the impression that they are totally out of their depth. As a result, few members of the global community are willing to invest in Ireland Inc.. A change of leadership would restore confidence in this country send a message to the International community that Ireland Inc does not tolerate incompetence.


 
Totally agree with both of these.

I want to see FF and GP gone.


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## Latrade (5 Nov 2009)

csirl said:


> I agree with this. People would have a lot more buy in to the recovery plan and would be more willing to get behind it if there was a GA.
> 
> People will also feel much better after venting their anger at wreckless politicians who are responsible for the mess.
> 
> And I think the global community would give us more support. At the moment, Cowen & Co are giving the world the impression that they are totally out of their depth. As a result, few members of the global community are willing to invest in Ireland Inc.. A change of leadership would restore confidence in this country send a message to the International community that Ireland Inc does not tolerate incompetence.


 
I think you give people too much credit (excuse the pun). There's just no evidence of any situation historically where anyone has been happy to put their hands in their pockets not without a personal incentive and not when there's just too many other people to calim are to blame for the situation.

It wouldn't matter if it were zombie Abe Lincoln or zombie This post will be deleted if not edited immediately in power asking us to take a hit, we'd be calling for their heads.

Simply, there's nothing in it for me, not directly. You can tell me all that stuff about in 5 years, 10 years, my kids, grandkids, but what's in it for me right now apart from less money? And that's what it boils down to.

National day of protest? National Day of Everyone Else But Me.

The sooner we all put aside our need to blame someone and just get stuck in the better. We can point the fingers once we're back to owning 4 properties and several cars.

As to the internation view of Ireland, well don't believe everything in the papers. Look how much we have to borrow every week to service debt, there's no way on earth we'd be loaned that much at this present time if people didn't have confidence in both the country and (shivers) the government's plans.

We're competing against America and other nations far bigger and a far safer bet, yet this tiny country is still able to go in and get the money (something we couldn't do before Feb 09).


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## Teatime (5 Nov 2009)

Latrade said:


> It wouldn't matter if it were zombie Abe Lincoln or zombie This post will be deleted if not edited immediately in power asking us to take a hit, we'd be calling for their heads.


 
 Zombie This post will be deleted if not edited immediately!?!?  He did rise from the dead once but I am not sure we'd call him  a zombie if he did it again.

Latrade, thanks for the giggle...


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## Firefly (5 Nov 2009)

Latrade said:


> zombie This post will be deleted if not edited immediately


 
Great name for a band!


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## Caveat (5 Nov 2009)

Firefly said:


> Great name for a band!


 
+1 

Project band featuring members of the This post will be deleted if not edited immediately & Mary Chain togther with Rob Zombie maybe?


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## BONDGIRL (5 Nov 2009)

how come we are talking about the vinny de paul here?


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## dewdrop (5 Nov 2009)

Comments regarding Vincent de Paul way over the top


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## starlite68 (5 Nov 2009)

let the IMF come in and make the cuts,..what do we have to loose at this stage!


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## Towger (5 Nov 2009)

starlite68 said:


> let the IMF come in and make the cuts,..what do we have to loose at this stage!


 
Thats what will end up happening, as it lets the gombeen men of the hook. It will allow them to keep their heads down for a year or two while the cuts are being made. After which they will rise like a phoenix from the ashes to start running the country again with a clean slate.


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## Shawady (5 Nov 2009)

Towger said:


> Thats what will end up happening, as it lets the gombeen men of the hook. It will allow them to keep their heads down for a year or two while the cuts are being made. After which they will rise like a phoenix from the ashes to start running the country again with a clean slate.


 
If the IMF come in are you saying the government just stay as they are? What would they be needed for?


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## Purple (5 Nov 2009)

dewdrop said:


> Comments regarding Vincent de Paul way over the top



When you've seen old women outside churches putting money box that they cannot afford to give in a collection and that money ending up with people who are far far better off than they are then you might change your mind.


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## Towger (5 Nov 2009)

Shawady said:


> If the IMF come in are you saying the government just stay as they are? What would they be needed for?


 
Well they did not last long in Iceland when the IMF came in. They would still be needed to 'govern' the country , they just don't have to make hard financial  decisions, so no blaming those FF/FGer for large paid cuts/tax increases.

BTW, I seem to remember a time in the 80's when we had no government, yet the countries unemployment reduced for the first time in years.


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## Shawady (5 Nov 2009)

Towger said:


> Well they did not last long in Iceland when the IMF came in. They would still be needed to 'govern' the country , they just don't have to make hard financial decisions, so no blaming those FF/FGer for large paid cuts/tax increases.
> 
> BTW, I seem to remember a time in the 80's when we had no government, yet the countries unemployment reduced for the first time in years.


 

Someone on AAM said months ago there will be riots on the streets yet.
They might be right.


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