# A good day for democracy



## come2ireland (13 Jun 2004)

FF shown increased & increasing arrogance does not pay (watch out Charlie)
FG coming back from the dead (good but ned to do more work)
SF (armalite & ballot box strategy works - Bad for us)
Large turnout (good)
But what about FG/Lab-DemLeft-oldSF/Independent Gov?
Will we pay more in taxes?
Will we have looney expenditure and then more taxes!
rates/property tax on houses over €200k
Certainly CGT of %40+ (Paye rate) But that may come in another FF/PD  anyway - excuse will be that they are bringing us into line with everyone else and at the PAYE rate its fair (and us and all our friends have cashed in our property gains so we'er ok)
Tax on Holiday Homes & Second Houses
And give the tenants more rights so we can screw the landlords for tax and they cannot sell for a period of 5 years due to increased tenant rights)

Any other prophecies?


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## Sean (13 Jun 2004)

Maybe a public health system that's as good as Spain or Portugals'?

No....unfortunately at the moment that seems to be just pure fantasy.


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## come2ireland (13 Jun 2004)

*celtic tiger money*

The value of a society must lie in the way we treat our old, our sick, destitute and our children.

Have we come far?

I don't think so.


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## rainyday (13 Jun 2004)

*Re: celtic tiger money*



> The value of a society must lie in the way we treat our old, our sick, destitute and our children.


Absolutely - but it doesn't look like you're prepared to pay the price of treating these people well. You don't get nuttin for nuttin.


> Will we pay more in taxes?
> Will we have looney expenditure and then more taxes!


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## come2ireland (13 Jun 2004)

*waste*

Value for money in expenditure -we are actually spending a lot per head
2 many passengers are being carried & 2 many vested interests (unions, phrma coms, consultants) and 
I don't include nurses or junior docs cause i think they are underpaid, underappreciated and overworked
I believe that micheal is the best hlth min so far but he is up against it


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## MOB (14 Jun 2004)

*Value of a society*

Two positions are juxtaposed above:

"The value of a society must lie in the way we treat our old, our sick, destitute and our children."

and

"Absolutely - but it doesn't look like you're prepared to pay the price of treating these people well. You don't get nuttin for nuttin."

There is a strange contradiction in the way we view our government.  Many of us resent the way the government "interferes" with us in the daily business of getting on with our lives.  On the other hand, many of us assume that the job of looking after the old, the sick, the destitute and our children is clearly one in which the state should have a major role.   I wholeheartedly agree that a society can be judged at least in part by the way its vulnerable are treated.  But it does not automatically follow that there shuold therefore be a large state apparatus to look after the vulnerable.  What is society but all of us?  Why on earth should we assume (for example) that taxation-derived state-disbursed funding is the best way to care for our aged?  In its present incarnation, it seems to me that state funding to care for the aged is a very blunt instrument indeed.  Local, community based organisations seem to me to do a far better job, where given the chance;  The job of looking after the old is the job of all of us - by contracting it out to the state via our tax bills, we are ghettoising the aged and making them feel useless long before their time.


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## rainyday (14 Jun 2004)

*Re: Value of a society*

Hi MOB - I think there are two seperate questions here;

- who funds the service
- who delivers the service

My rationale for a state-funded service is that this is the only way I can think over to ensure that a minimum level service is guaranteed as a right. While it's great to see community based services, should persons who just happen to live in an area where the community are not so community-minded be left to suffer?

I'd be certainly open to arguement as to why local organisations could deliver the service when they are funded by the state.


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## BigBlue (14 Jun 2004)

*election*



> SF (armalite & ballot box strategy works -* Bad for us)*



Who the hell is - us? 
Do you mean - you?

Evidently a large, and increasing section of the population are sick of the same old crap from FF/FG/PDs etc. and are voting for a new deal. If you don't like it that's *your* tough luck, so don't presume to speak for anyone but yourself, OK! 
The people have spoken, and SF are on the up.

I'm overjoyed to see SF sticking it to McDowell and the rest of his ilk (he's actually SF's best recruiter).


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## come2ireland (14 Jun 2004)

*shinners*

ah the shinners are out


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## come2ireland (14 Jun 2004)

*bug blu*

us = this who

Think murder is wrong
Believe in the rule of law
Do not want punishment beatings
Believe that placing a bomb that kills children is wrong
Believe that the shinner way as practised by north korea and the old USSR is a failure
Believe that a secret army should not be used foe leverage
............................................etc


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## XXXAnother PersonXXX (14 Jun 2004)

*.*

I'd quite be quite happy if I could opt out of paying tax all my life, and look after myself when I'm old (using all the 'tax' money)

Dole people certainly have never had it so good. One dole couple I know have just come back from two weeks holiday in Bulgaria.


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## zinger (14 Jun 2004)

*What*

I would rather a week in Mosney than a week in Bulgaria , blody dole spongers could have gone to at least a secular country rather than a third world pit.


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## BigBlue (14 Jun 2004)

*Come2Ireland (but only if you're a West Brit)*

Yes I'm a Sinn Feiner supporter. And today feeling more and more proud of it.

Sinn Fein now represent 14.5% (at latest count) of the Irish electorate. Fianna Fail have just 22%, and at the rate they're falling they'll be out polled by Sinn Fein within a few short years. 
FG are even shorter on the odds.

Sinn Fein are the main reason there's a peace process in this country, so all your ould claptrap is just water off a ducks back. The public are finally seeing through your middle class/builders/bankers/backscratchers black propoganda. They are voting with their feet. 
No armalites required! 

You're history, get outta the way.


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## David B (14 Jun 2004)

*.*

XXXAnother PersonXXX said:

"I'd quite be quite happy if I could opt out of paying tax all my life, and look after myself when I'm old"


So what would happen if you were involved in a substantial court case and lost all your wealth.  Then you were involved in an accident and had your hands damaged & amputated, so you could not work?

Who would look after you then?


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## oilean (14 Jun 2004)

*Re: .*

XXXAnother PersonXXX said:

"I'd quite be quite happy if I could opt out of paying tax all my life, and look after myself when I'm old"

One small question, 

what about schools, hospitals, street lighting, roads, gardai, water sanitation, sewage works, subsidised public transport, street sweepers etc

Do you think these are all free?


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## come2ireland (14 Jun 2004)

*bugbli*

Go on then, justify one bombing !

I bet you have never stood in a street after a bomb went off.

Armchair general


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## purple (14 Jun 2004)

*A good day etc.*

It is bad for democracy for one party to be in power for 18 out of 20 years. They havn't done a bad job overall despite what The Irish Times/RTE/The Labour party (as far as I can see they are all one in the same) may say.
A FG lead government with a minor role for the Pinko's would be the best option for the next time around. 
It would be worth the economic set backs to get rid of Bertie.


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## come2ireland (14 Jun 2004)

*i agree*

FF need to do time in opposition as do all political parties

Will Mary Louper decommission the EU army when she goes to Europe?

Maybe Gerry will take over European defence and Martin can be in charge of Internal Security

Beatings will continue until all agree


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## Elk (14 Jun 2004)

*Cannot support anyone who supports violence...*

I understand the need to vote for someone else other than FF/FG but it saddens me to see people turn to the likes of SF.

As Gandhi once said
" Democracy and violence can ill go together.
Evolution of democracy is not possible if we are not prepared to hear the other side."

I believe in debate but you cannot have a debate with threat of violence.  My only hope is that with growing power of SF that they might be forced to disarm their private army in order to enter into government with one of the larger parties.

Elk


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## Tommy (14 Jun 2004)

*Re: Cannot support anyone who supports violence...*



> Evidently a large, and increasing section of the population are sick of the same old crap from FF/FG/PDs etc. and are voting for a new deal.


The same could have been said for the Green Party, 15, 10 or 2 years ago. Now the Green light has dimmed as people realise they're not all they're cracked up to be, especially that their economic policies are crazy.  

Sinn Fein now have a very good chance to learn from the Greens' mistake but unless they adopt realistic economic policy positions and clean up their act in relation to the probity of people they are putting forward for election (social welfare fraudsters, former bombers etc), they will bite the dust in due course.



> I'm overjoyed to see SF sticking it to McDowell and the rest of his ilk (he's actually SF's best recruiter).


Should McDowell have stayed silent? I actually believe his suspicions (and in fairness they are only suspicions) are grave enough to warrant a comprehensive probe of SFIRA by the Criminal Assets Bureau. Time to act, Michael...


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## Tommy (14 Jun 2004)

*Re: Cannot support anyone who supports violence...*



> Sinn Fein are the main reason there's a peace process in this country



They are also the main reason where there was ever a need for a peace process in the first instance


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## CM (14 Jun 2004)

*..*

Too true Tommy !


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## Redbhoy (14 Jun 2004)

*Re: Cannot support anyone who supports violence...*

Nice one Tommy- and dont forget the 800 years of Oppression by our beloved neighbours. Ask anyone who lived in Northern Ireland from 1922-1969 was there a need for armed struggle!!!


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## come2ireland (14 Jun 2004)

*peace process*

SF IRA put back the peace process 20 years and that opinion comes from John Hume.

If they had not gone violent, the hard line unionists would have been exposed.
The British Gov would have been forced by in opinion to put democracy and civil rights in place and could not have hidden behind national security, etc


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## Elk (14 Jun 2004)

*"Armed struggle Talk"  .. Havent we moved on?*

Hmm a need for armed struggle.  How did Gandhi achieve independance for India?  Through armed struggle ? Nope!

Im sorry but using violence to achieve a political goal is wrong (no matter who's "side" you are on).  You cannot say that you are democrat and still have a gun in your hand for people who disagree with you.

It about time we looked to the future rather than dwelling on the past.


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## zinger (14 Jun 2004)

*@*

Sinn Fein as we all know are the political wing of the terrorist organisation known as the IRA , who commited many attrocities in the North and mainland UK. Politics and terrorist organistaionsin the same bed , you idiots just gave these guys more confiednce in there systems and beliefs whihc will do nothing for the peace process if it continues.

Yes "the political wing of the terrorist organisation known as the IRA".


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## Guest (14 Jun 2004)

*@*

Whataboutery is a futile exercise. Otherwise we may as well start asking Labour to account for Official IRA/SFWP/WP/DL arms. :\


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## gerry (14 Jun 2004)

*u lads*

this site is going to come in for some scrutiny when mary lulu becomes the first female tshock.

The colombian amigos may even call to visit


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## Colm (14 Jun 2004)

*...*

Redbhoy said: 
"Ask anyone who lived in Northern Ireland from 1922-1969 was there a need for armed struggle!!!"

Have you ever been to Northern Ireland?  My father lived here in N.I. (where I live) for most of those years.  BTW we're from a Belfast/Catholic background and would never even consider support for such murderous actions.


come2ireland said:
"If they had not gone violent, the hard line unionists would have been exposed.
The British Gov would have been forced by in opinion to put democracy and civil rights in place and could not have hidden behind national security, etc"

In my opinion, this is completely correct.


Tommy said:
"They [SF] are also the main reason where there was ever a need for a peace process in the first instance"

In my opinion, completely correct.


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## come2ireland (14 Jun 2004)

*sf*

I too come from the north, RC/Tyrone and I never heard anyone of my family ever say or make a remark trying to justify a bomb going off in a crowded street/shop or the shootig of someone in front of their childred.

Shinners are great at using societies laws but don't give their victims a second chance.

And I don't forgive Dem Left/Stickies/Labour either for the misery they have caused 3 generations on northern catholics and protestants - they are what they are


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## daltonr (14 Jun 2004)

*Re: sf*



> excuse will be that they are bringing us into line with everyone else



You didn't have a problem with that "excuse" when it was used in the context of citizenship.   

Don't sweat the SF result.  It will join the Spring Tide, and the PD's 16 seats (or was it 14) in the annals of Irish Politics.
This was a vote against FF, and SF benefited.  But we're not looking and a shift in Irish Politics.

*Unless SF realise the potential they have here, and cut their ties completely with the IRA, stop the double speak, develop some sensible policies, and continue the community work they do (minus the vigilante stuff). *  Then we might have something big.

It's about 50/50 right now whether we'll have FF/A.N.Other,  or a coalition of FG/Labour/Greens/The Kitchen Sink, in the next Government.

And whatever happens in the next Dail, I suspect FF will only be out for 1 term if that.  The Irish people have shown themselves to be surprisingly gullible over the years.

Of course when the Motley Coalition fails to deliver in all the areas that they've been criticising FF/PD, they'll have the excuse that they had to comprimise in order to keep all the government parties together.

Whatever!!!!   Wake me up when it's all over.



> The people have spoken
> RD would say they are all nuts
> But a least his shinner friends are doing well



They're not ALL nuts.  The result is the will of the people.  We'll see where it leads us.  See you all back here for the citizenship X case in a few years time.

BTW, suggesting that I have Shinner Friends is the most insulting thing anyone has ever posted about me on AAM.  Congratulations, I presume you were setting out to insult.
 

-Rd


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## come2ireland (14 Jun 2004)

*rd got sense 80% cant be all nuts*

I said they(charlie) will use that excuse (which is hard to argue against)

Yep, looks like FG/Greens - 1 trick pony/Lab-DLeft-sticky next gov unless charlie can pull a rabbitte our of a bag !!!
Mabye Pat will sell out yet again and join FF 

Still FF in opposition may teach them a little humility and remember the people


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## Tommy (14 Jun 2004)

*Re: sf*

In fairness, daltonr (for all his faults   ) has always criticised the Shinners on these pages.


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## come2ireland (14 Jun 2004)

*ok*

point taken


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## daltonr (15 Jun 2004)

*Labour Sell Out???  Surely Not!*



> Still FF in opposition may teach them a little humility and remember the people



FF have been in opposition many times.  The thing that pisses me off, is this belief that by voting in the opposition you'll somehow change things.   

After 1 term of Labour/FG and the general running of the country continuing as usual we get collective amnesia and FF get back in.



> Mabye Pat will sell out yet again and join FF



I can't see that happening next time.  I think He'd prefer to go to the country again rather than join FF in government.  In fact I think he'd probably prefer a few more years in opposition rather than join FF.

I think one change that has happened is that FF have finally killed off most of the "FF Family Votes".  Those who vote FF because their parents and grandparents did.

One FF activist on Live Line described FF as becomming a Brand rather than a party.  And as a former member I'd have to say that sums it up very well for me.

I'm just surprised this result didn't happen in the last general election.  But, I guess the electorate can only hate one party at a time.

-Rd


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## come2ireland (15 Jun 2004)

*rd comment?*

Yep, looks like FG/Greens - 1 trick pony/Lab-DLeft-sticky next gov unless charlie can pull a rabbitte our of a bag !!!


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## John (15 Jun 2004)

*../*

Well said Tommy, you took the words out of my mouth.
How anybody could support Sinn Fein is beyond me, after all the bombs, shootings and mayhems they and their followers have caused over the years.     The fact that so many Irish people seem to be fooled by them now is incredible, and makes me a little ashamed to be Irish.   Its a sad day for Irish democracy when a party is elected that has arms under the table.


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## BigBlue (15 Jun 2004)

*SF*



> Go on then, justify one bombing !
> I bet you have never stood in a street after a bomb went off.



C2I...my son, I was born in Belfast. 
One of the earliest memories I have is of being brought up the Falls to see the remnants of Bombay Street in 1969. Protestant mobs invaded the Catholic street and burned every single last house to the ground. 

That same month my best friend was shot dead by the B-Specials. He was in bed in the Divis flats when they drove throuigh the complex firing indiscriminately into the building. He was hit in the head. His name was Patsy Rooney and he was 10 years old.

Our house was in the city centre and I not only stood in the street after bombs, but before bombs and after bombs.

I don't need to justify any bombs in NI, for me it was part of a war to defend the Catholic people of Belfast and Derry against a State backed program of ethnic cleansing. War is dirty and mostly innocent people suffer, but contrary to your ideas that it was all unnecessary, and that the Stormont Government would have been reasonable eventually if they'd just been left alone and given their own sweet time...I say absolute rubbish. 
The catch calls remain to this day: 'Not an Inch' 'Croppy Lie Down' 'We Have and We Hold' 'For God and Ulster'.

It took men with guts and integrity, Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness, to lead the Republican movement away from war. If it wasn't for them it might still be going on. Ultimately it takes the men who fought the war to make the peace, and thats what they are doing...and doing so damn well they are making a holy show of the pot bellied red neck bribe taking yahoos of FF, and the hand wringing and pointless West Brits of FG.  They've run circles around them all for the last 10 years.

You all seem to forget that your beloved FF/FG are the product of your own civil war, and that both of them have blood on their hands too you hypocrites. Or have you forgotten the actions of your hero Michael Collins?!

As to the suggestion that this is all just 'a blip'. I can tell you that you've lost touch with the growth sector of Irish opinion...the youth. They've had it with your tiired old political trash. And besides that, SF is the only All Ireland Party with clout both North and South of the border. The combined mandate for SF would probably exceeed that of any other party in the whole island.

Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.


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## come2ireland (15 Jun 2004)

*not my ff*

its lucky Ghandi wasn't around, you'd probably have shot him.
PIRA ruined 3 generations of Irish youngsters
Progress would have been made in civil rights if they had not give the British the excuse to do nothing.

I agree with John Hume regarding SF and their contribution to NI.

Also, what gave SF the right to come south and murder our Gardai - answer that one


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## come2ireland (15 Jun 2004)

*and*

J

ustify the placing of bombs to kill and maim children





Daniel O'Connell, speaking about Irish Freedom said " thouh the cause was a just one, it was not worth the death of as ingle person"


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## daltonr (15 Jun 2004)

*Smoking Pipes*



> You all seem to forget that your beloved FF/FG are the product of your own civil war, and that both of them have blood on their hands too you hypocrites.



Nothing hypocritical about it.  I don't care if the IRA never disarms or disbands.  I do care that current SF members lie about their membership of the IRA and are as corrupt as any other party in the Dail, and more corrupt than most.

If FF or FG still had links to an illegal army and lied about it I'd be critical of them in the same way i'm critical of SF.




> Or have you forgotten the actions of your hero Michael Collins?!



Not a hero of mine,  although I respect *some* of the things he did.  I doubt he would have lied about his past in the way *some* prominent Shinners do.



> Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.



Would that be a Peace Pipe, or a Pipe Bomb?
It's so hard to tell with SF.

-Rd


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## custard bomb (15 Jun 2004)

*££*

I think Dalton R put it best when he said "And whatever happens in the next Dail, I suspect FF will only be out for 1 term if that. The Irish people have shown themselves to be surprisingly gullible over the years." 
followed by

 "Whatever!!!! Wake me up when it's all over."
Thanks for that fantastic contibution to the debate you are a fountain of knowledge and wisdom a pure example of whimsical nothings we have in our society today , your insight into the intelligence of the country is complex and well founded......Taxi for DaltonR


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## BigBlue (15 Jun 2004)

*SF*



> its lucky Ghandi wasn't around, you'd probably have shot him.



Grow up for fecks sake.



> PIRA ruined 3 generations of Irish youngsters



Tell that to my friend Patsy Rooney.
[broken link removed]



> Progress would have been made in civil rights if they had not give the British the excuse to do nothing.



HAH! Since when did the Brits need an excuse to do whatever the hell they liked!



> I agree with John Hume regarding SF and their contribution to NI.



I happen to know John, and I respect him, but he is ultimately a politician and has his own party to sell. You'll agree with anyone who'll support your own viewpoint.



> Also, what gave SF the right to come south and murder our Gardai - answer that one



SF don't have any arms and haven't murdered anybody.


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## G H (15 Jun 2004)

*BB?*

Quote by Big Blue "I happen to know John, and I respect him, but he is ultimately a politician". 

What does that mean ? , he is a decent guy however he is a polictician so expect anything bar integrity and candor?.

"SF don't have any arms and haven't murdered anybody."

Big Blue i feel that you should look through the SF candidates resume to see the criminal records and more prominently their IRA membership , Gerry Adams , Martin Ferris , Nicky Kehoe , Bobby Storey the list goes on an on.........

It seems that the anti governement / protest for Sinn Fein was mostly brought about by the lesser fortunate people in life, thank god that these people (SF) have no consequence in national government.


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## come2ireland (15 Jun 2004)

*bagblu*

Go on then,

Justify the placing of ONE bomb in a crowded street that will have children in it.

and don't say others do it so its ok


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## me (15 Jun 2004)

*answer com???????????? question*

please answer the justification question as I have never hear anyone from Sinn Fein give one - no rheroric or insults please


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## Elk (15 Jun 2004)

*SF supporters should grow up!*

Yes I am also interested in how one could justify the planting of one bomb.

Anyway we better be careful here or we might get our knees bashed in with nail ended baseball bats...

I saw a cartoon in a paper yesterday that, for me sums, SF up.  It was of SF playing in Euro 2004.  The SF intimidates the opposing player by whispering to him "You better let us win or there will be reprisals"


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## yes (15 Jun 2004)

*answer*

beatings will continue until morale improves


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## piggy (15 Jun 2004)

*Re: SF supporters should grow up!*

I probably don't know enough about this whole situation but my understanding of it would be as follows.

Yes...SF is supposedly largely made up of ex-terrorists and bombers. There is no justification for any of it, any of the bombings up the north and all the innocent lives that were snuffed out. Although I don't think that can be forgotten, I don't necessarily think it is the first thing I would focus on in relation to SF.
The political situation up the north is an ugly one at best. For whatever reason Gerry Adams & co chose to find a political solution to the problem up the north. There were a number of reasons behind this, I would imagine.
However, like it or not they are a part of the political future of the north, in much the same way as the loyalists are.
Down south, SF seem to have gained some support alright. I feel that they will always play a role in our politics. There's a lot of reasons not to want them there, I agree. But it doesn't alter the fact that they're there. 
Personally, part of their vote was protest...but not all of it. They will always receive a fringe vote. Logic would dictate that they get stronger, not weaker over the coming years.


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## daltonr (15 Jun 2004)

*Logic*



> Logic would dictate that they get stronger, not weaker over the coming years.



When people realise that SF have no chance of ever getting into government they will lose a certain amount of support. 

When SF are finally put on the spot by the media and forced to answer questions about their policies they will lose more support.  The media have a lot to answer for here.  Most interviews seem to degenerate into whether or no Gerry Adams is in the IRA.

A better question would be "What did Gerry Adams mean when he said that Ireland could learn a lot about education from CUBA?"

Ironically when McDowell said that the PD's needed to be radicaal or be Redundant, it was SF who took up that challenge.

Maybe you're in the wrong party Mick.

-Rd


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## come2ireland (15 Jun 2004)

*Oh GOD I agree with rd*

I hope this passes

Love the ITimes cartoon, if SF progresses, its not immigration we'll have but Emigration


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## Spacer (15 Jun 2004)

*..*

Cuba has a lot to be proud of in terms of its educational and health systems.  It produces more doctors per head of capita than most other countries.

On the flip side, it has an appalling human rights record, it's run by a dictator and it actively suppresses freedom of expression and practice of religion.

In short, it's the sort of place the Shinners have been trying to move away from.


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## come2ireland (15 Jun 2004)

*u mean "move to"*

but north korea would be more welcoming to them
especilly now that their club med  (libya) has rejoined the int community


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## Spacer (15 Jun 2004)

*..*

No , I mean move away from.

The lack of tolerence of religious minorties and the  suppression of civil liberties are (among) the raisons d'etre of the Shinners.

So it's interesting to hear them speak in such glowing terms of administrations that are similarly oppressive. 

Personally, I think it's typical of their double standards and "see-saw" outlook (i.e. taking the line that most suits their immediate objectives rather than applying any lone-term consistency).


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## oilean (16 Jun 2004)

*Re: ..*

I think whatever your feelings about the shinners are

The vote that they received may have been a vote aginast the current government (depending on your views)

But it was a vote for a party that most of the country would not admit in public 5 years ago

The stigma is not there anymore, is this not coming in out of the cold?
They are now acceptable amongst ordinary middle class voters


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## John (16 Jun 2004)

*s f*

Sinn Fein are broadly speaking NOT acceptable among most most people , especially better educated middle class voters.   Why would a party of bombers, kneecappers and arms smugglers make a good political party ?  If they gave up their weapons , then yes, ok, fair enough.


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## daltonr (16 Jun 2004)

*SF Loves Cuba*



> Cuba has a lot to be proud of in terms of its educational and health systems.



How the North survived a SF minister for Education I don't know.  Perhaps they're better off without the Assembly if it would lead to [broken link removed] kind of education.

-Rd


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## come2ireland (16 Jun 2004)

*c this article*

June 15 2004

Back room: Adams could fear Workers Party fate 
For Gerry Adams, the President of Provisional Sinn FeÂin, the past week must have been something of a prolonged, slow-motion punishment beating. 

All week he was confronted by an insistent message from all shades of American political opinion: put a permanent stop to IRA activities and turn the republican movement exclusively to politics. 

While nearly all political debate has focused on the need for the IRA to cease activities
little attention has been given to what political life would be like for Sinn Féin once the crutch of the IRA has fallen away.There can be little doubt that Gerry Adams has thought long and hard about this. And there can be little doubt that what he sees is not that attractive


[broken link removed]


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## very interesting (16 Jun 2004)

*very interesting article*

According to the 1999 document "Local Power - A National Right", Sinn Féin "supports the idea of a local income tax". Anyone who pays income taxes,take note. 

* According to the same document, Sinn Féin believes "there is widespread support for the introduction of a financial sector tax". Anyone working in the IFSC, take note. 

* According to the party's 2004 prebudget submission, Sinn Féin supports a policy of reducing prison numbers and of "stopping over-incarceration". Anyone worried that policing of crime is already too lax, take note.


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## BigBlue (16 Jun 2004)

*SF*

Justify a bomb on a street? Why do you think I need to?
Because I support SF?

When has SINN FEIN bombed anyone?

Some members of Sinn Fein were IRA members? 
So what? There was a war going on in the North and my community was under mortal threat. Not everyone sees them as mere terrorists.

Some of them have served sentences for their actions and paid their debt to society. 
Maybe they've changed their views about war too during their incarceration. I doubt you care what they believe...you'll think whatever you like anyhow, but just so you know many others have different views, and for good reasons. 

It is not Sinn Fein policy to plant bombs.
No Sinn Fein member is planting bombs anywhere, and if they did they would be acting contrary to Sinn Fein policy, which is of political engagement, not war. 

PS I think a Financial Sector tax is a bloody good idea and long overdue. Also, Sinn Fein is supported strongly in areas where the Gardai have proved themselves totally incapable of providing law enforcement and security to ordinary decent people.


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## come2ireland (16 Jun 2004)

*I C bugblu*

SF has no connection with the IRA


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## Bobby (16 Jun 2004)

*Income "Tax"*

-Sinn Féin "supports the idea of a local income tax".-

Many businesses in certain parts of NI already pay a local "income tax".  

Unfortunately this "tax" does not pay for any hospitals, schools, roads or anything public whatsoever!


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## come2ireland (16 Jun 2004)

*local tax*

they also collect in dublin


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## HUD (16 Jun 2004)

*Terrorism*

I find it infuriating that some people on this BB dare insinuate that every Irish person who votes for Sinn Fein is a supporter of terrorism, while at the same time vociferously defending the purity of other nationalities or religious groups which constantly equivocate over the *active* terrorism within their own community.

Osama Bin Laden encourages terrorist attacks in the name of Islam. Does that mean everyone who embraces Islam is a terrorist? 

Where exactly do you draw your superior moral line?

Double standards abound.


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## daltonr (16 Jun 2004)

*Financial Sector Tax*



> PS I think a Financial Sector tax is a bloody good idea and long overdue.



Why?  Because they are profitable?
How about Construction Firms?  They've practically been minting their own cash for a few years now, how about a special tax for them.

Or what about organizations that exploit the patriotism and ingorance of Ex-Pats to raise money.  How about a special tax on that.

Incidently there is a Levy on Banks at the moment, so whatever it is it isn't overdue.  It's here.

This is exactly the kind of stuff we need more discussion on.  SF won't last ten minutes when their true policies are discussed.  They'll join Joe (The Banks should all be owned by the state) Higgins on the Looney Fringe.

-Rd


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## come2ireland (16 Jun 2004)

*sf*

if you vote for sinn fein, you cannot ignore their past and their present.

Do you, for example, believe that the murderers of Garda Jerry McCabe should walk free?

SF do

Its not ala carte where you pick the bits that you like without taking responsibility for the rest


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## Spacer (16 Jun 2004)

*..*

"Osama Bin Laden encourages terrorist attacks in the name of Islam. Does that mean everyone who embraces Islam is a terrorist?"

No, it means that everyone who embraces Osama Bin Laden is embracing terrorism. 

Attempting to fuse religious persuasion with political idealism as a means of garnering support is a well-establihed trick that the Shinners in particular have sought to exploit in the past.

In a democracy, you are of course free to support who you like - but it helps if you know what they're about.


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## daltonr (16 Jun 2004)

*For the record*

For the record I've never had a problem with SF's past.  I've never said a bad word against those members of Sinn Fein who admit to having been members of the IRA, Such as Martin McGuinness for example.  Even those who said they were proud of what they did such as a local election candidate in my constituency.

My problem with Sinn Fein is the dishonesty.  There's the laughable dishonesty of Gerry Adams claiming to never have been a member of the IRA.  If he'll lie about things he doesn't need to lie about do you think he'd think twice about lying about more serious issues.

And there's the more sinister Dishonesty of SF calling "The Establised Parties" like Fianna Fail currupt, while SF is itself involved in actions that are far more corrupt.

I don't care if the IRA never disbands, or if it never destroys or hands over another bullet.   All I care about is that the people who go forward for election honestly have no ties with illegal gangs, and that those who want to put their pasts behind them at least do us the courtesy of owning up to their part in it.

SF are terrified to sever ties with their past because it's all that sets them apart and can be counted on for a big chunk of votes.  When they have to slug it out in honest politics they'll be sharing last place with the Socialist Party and Others.

-Rd


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## come2ireland (17 Jun 2004)

*the 3 amigos*

A sinn fein spokesman saidthey were dissapponted  the the Colombian 3 were not allowed to leave the country while their cases were being appealed

Were they on holiday or digging wells for the poor rural workers?


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## daltonr (18 Jun 2004)

*Columbia*

Are those 3 home yet?

Naturally they'll be paraded as heroes at various SF fundraisers.   Travelling on false passports in Farc country might seem dodgy to you and I, but to SF it makes them heroes.

Bloody passports, and governments and law's and stuff.  Sure why would a legitimate political party need to bother itself with such things.

-Rd


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## come2ireland (18 Jun 2004)

*teach a man to fish and he can feed ......oops wrong group*

BOGOTA, Colombia, June 7 (Reuters) - A car bomb exploded in the city of Medellin on Monday, injuring two pregnant women, a Catholic priest and five other people in an early morning attack authorities blamed on Marxist rebels.

Without providing evidence, police said urban guerrillas with the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, FARC, left a car packed with explosives in a parking lot in the center of the city, about 155 miles (250 km) northwest of Colombia's capital, Bogota.

It was the second blast in a major urban center since Saturday night, when another car bomb -- also blamed on the FARC -- injured seven people in the southwestern city of Cali.


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## BigBlue (18 Jun 2004)

*SF*

Daltonr, the financial services sector in this country are *obscenely* profitable and deeply corrupted, so yes, they should be tithed, and made to clean up their dirty act. And YES so should the building sector, you know well this has been suggested many times by political/economic commentators in the form of a tax on land banking. But with a corrupt FF/PD government in the back pockets of the developers - it won't happen.
I bet it will if SF get into power!
Roll on that day.

C2I...you cannot ignore the past *and present* of Sinn Fein? I don't! The past is one of political activism for the republican people of Ireland, the present is political activism for all the Irish people through the championing of a peace process that as been actively disrupted and frustrated by Unionism at every opportunity. Ian Paisley is still the bigotted git he always was, and the Protestant people of NI just voted him and his party into majority unionist party position at the last election. I grew up on a diet of his anti catholic ranting every night on UTV. If Paisley had his way we'd be back in 1968, when the protestant establishment still had the nationalist people under their thumb and the B-Specials enforced the police state apartheid system on them, and all was well in his fundamentalist proddy dreamland.

While a man like him exists, and is the favoured leader of the protestant population of NI...don't talk to me about Gerry or Martin, who are trying to work with him.


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## come2ireland (18 Jun 2004)

*big ian*

I think that Big Ian, Gerry, Martin and YOU are more alike that you might care to admit.

This is the generation that must pass before peace can blossom.

I'm not saying that the 4 of you are bad or good (not my right to judge) but you all are unfortunately a product of your environment.

Reared elsewhere, your paths may have been a lot different.


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## BigBlue (18 Jun 2004)

*SF*

By the way daltonr, 





> My problem with Sinn Fein is the dishonesty. There's the laughable dishonesty of Gerry Adams claiming to never have been a member of the IRA.



Are you sure about that? My understanding is that he never denied IRA memberhip in the 70's...and Martin McGuinness makes no such denial at all.

What they do deny is being members of the IRA NOW and aside from your 'suspicions' about that...do you have any evidence they are in the IRA now?
Please show it!

PS. Many killers of both civilians and security forces personnel have had to be released under the GF agreement. Johnny Adair murdered (and ordered the murder) of innocent catholics who had nothing to do with the conflict, yet he was released. It is distatsteful to me...but thats the deal, so I live with it.


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## BigBlue (18 Jun 2004)

*SF*

C2I your comments are pretty outrageous there. You sound like a rather arrogant, superior and self satisfied little man. Most people from NI who've lived in the Republic have heard your type of chauvinistic bile. "Ahhh, you bloody Northerners are all the same. Troublemakers. Stop taking our jobs down here. Go home."
In my opinion its nothing short of Racism, because if you made the same comment to Nigerian or a Moldovan thats exactly what it would be called. Thats what you are, face up to the fact.


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## Easyrules (18 Jun 2004)

*SF*

C2I, every human being is a product of the environment they live in. You are too. Your worldview is therefore limited by the prejudices and experiences you've been handed during your upbringing. Don't think you're better than anyone else.


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## come2ireland (18 Jun 2004)

*better than everyone else*

I don't think that but at some stage a conscience must come into play.

I still cannot understand how anyone can justify the bombing and maiming of children. (or not DENOUNCE it)

As for Adair, using his name justifies nothing.

I'm from the North but I don't go around killing Gardai so I can rob money.


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## EasyRules (18 Jun 2004)

*SF*

Well bully for you.


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## BigBlue (18 Jun 2004)

*SF*



> I don't think that but at some stage a conscience must come into play.



And where does conscience come from if not your taught and learned value system? How do Palestinian bombers justify killing Israeli children? Because they've been taught it is not only OK but is glorious in their twisted belief system. Conscience doesn't exist when environment overrides it. For instance your racism was probably taught to you by your own parents. 

You're from the North?
Where? 
Bundoran?!
You don't sound like anyone who ever lived under the threats of Adair or Paisleys henchmen! 
Ofcourse they mean nothing to you.


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## come2ireland (18 Jun 2004)

*who are they bugblu?*

BB,
You and your fellow travellers(easy and paisley,etc) 
would like to continue this tit for tat killing for how long?

You mention racism - your leaders have bragged that catholics will outnumber prods in 2016.
What do they plan then? apartheid? exetermination?

And if conscience does not exist, should we not strive to make it exist, for everybody's future.

Bundoran is the North West, dimwit.

Easy,
Yes, bully for me that I have not bombed or killed and I cannot accept others doing it either.


Your way and SF way and Paisleys way is more of the same - misery for all


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## Easyrules (18 Jun 2004)

*SF*



> You and your fellow travellers(easy and paisley,etc) would like to continue this tit for tat killing for how long



What killing exactly are you talking about you fool? 
The IRA is on ceasefire and has killed no-one. 
On the other hand, Loyalists have been killing *each other* with monotonous regularity.
Here are the statistics:  - *2004*
*2003*

As you can see from reading them the Protestant deaths are the result of ongoing feuds within their own gangs.
The couple of Catholic deaths were the result of feuds within the 'dissident' republican gangs which are not on ceasefire, or by Loyalist groups.

This link is an extract from the NI Police Commisioners report:Paramilitary Violence

As you can see from that report the number of Assaults (beatings) perpetrated by Loyalists since 2001 has averaged at *double* that of the Republican statistic.

Its a lamentable situation that any such beatings occur, but they are primarily the result of failed policing arrangements in NI. However, I'd like you to explain why you don't seem at all exercised by Loyalist beatings.

You are a victim of brainwashing by politicians in the Republic (like McDowell) who see the building public support for SF as a threat to their political future. Linking SF to those attacks is a handy way to smear them and frighten idiots like you who can't think for themselves.



> You mention racism - your leaders have bragged that catholics will outnumber prods in 2016.
> What do they plan then? apartheid? exetermination?



You really are scraping the bottom of your mental barrel, aren't you.
When *Nationalists* outnumber *Loyalists* the Nationalists will out-vote them, and a new political dispensation will arrive *democratically.*



> Bundoran is the North West, dimwit.


Thanks for the geography lesson, but I think the point just went right over your wee head. 
I'll explain it to you slowly.
You-aren't-from-North-of-the-border. 
You-are-more-likely-from-North-Dublin. 
Or-Bundoran. 
Get it now?


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## come2ireland (18 Jun 2004)

*easydope*

Its hard going explaining to you. I assumn you are a head strong tennager who need to see life a bit more

1. I hate Republican or Loyalist or any violence to any person.

2. As I have said here prev, I am from Tyrone and lived through the 60' & 70s so don't lecture or try to make fun of me. And I'll repeat this, after the civil marches were beaten by the forces of the state in form of the cameras, it was the beginning of the end of the Unionist Fascist State. The IRA by going to violence allowed them to carry on for 3 more decades and bred a level of hate in 3 generations of Irish young.

3. No one has the right to kill or maim anyone and it does bring tit for tat

4. SF will peak and fall back the way the Stickies did. Its a niche party and need to get rid of its secret army. You cannot have 2 armies in a democratic state.


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## Easyrules (18 Jun 2004)

*SF*

If you lived through the 60s and 70s in Tyrone then it is *your own* generation which you referred to as being mentally retarded. What does that say about you?

Your argument fades away when faced with a few statistics which counter your lofty self opinionated prejudices. 
You hate violence? Great. Is that worth wasting bandwidth and our time on? Whaddya want? A round of applause?

You're entitled to your views on where the Nationalist/Republican movement 'went wrong'. Maybe from rural Tyrone it all looked cozy down on the farm in '69 ,while we in Belfast were catching hell. But thats history. The present is much more interesting.

A lot of folk are in denial about the gains made by SF. Time will prove them wrong, because unlike C2I, a large proportion of the electorate is becoming daily less slavish to the doctrine of McDowell/FF and the PDs. 

Tiocfaidh ar Lá


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## come2ireland (18 Jun 2004)

*ah, you are a teenager !*

Thats OK, you've never really seen violence, except on TV.
When it happens to real people, its different.
Your opinion will change.

Have a nice day


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