# Originator Plus Direct Debits - should they be allowed?!



## sartay (1 Sep 2009)

Hi all, I may sound totally niave and ignorant here now but for the first time today I have become aware of the existence of Originator Plus Direct Debit mandates and I'm actually quite astounded by them!

By way of brief background, I signed up to a direct debit with a company a while back. I have a dispute with them over the service that I have received and don't want to pay the full amount owed as I didn't receive all the services that I was meant to. I called the bank today to cancel the direct debit until I get the issue sorted with the company. However, the bank have told me that I signed an Originator Plus direct debit mandate and as such the bank can't cancel the direct debit! I have to write to the company to ask them to cancel the direct debit! So basically, I have to write to a company that I am in dispute with to say "please please don't take money from my account"! The chances of that going smoothly and taking immediate effect are slim. I have also heard today that this particular company look likely to be going out of business as they let all their staff go this morning. So you can imagine how much of a chance I would have of getting a service dispute sorted and any cash refunded.

I guess why I am amazed is that basically by signing one of these things you are in effect giving a company complete access to your bank account. What happens in the cases of unscrupulous companies who take a load of money and run off with it? Rare I'm sure but how is it even allowed to be possible! Or in cases like mine where there is a genuine dispute over service - I don't have the power to withhold my payment.

Is there anyone else that thinks this kind of thing shouldn't be allowed?? Is there anything we can do about it?


----------



## callybags (1 Sep 2009)

I have never heard of this.

My attitude would be to insist the bank carry out your instructions and not pay the DD.

Put it in writing to them explicitly stating that you wish to cancel the DD.

Ask them to acknowledge receipt of you letter / email.


----------



## mathepac (1 Sep 2009)

As far as I can establish (subject to correction) there is no such thing as an Originator Plus Direct Debit Scheme according to the Irish Payment Services Organisation (IPSO) and your bank is obliged to carry out your instructions regarding the payment of direct debits  from your account -


----------



## sartay (1 Sep 2009)

I did insist with the bank when they told me. She initially said there was nothing they could do. I argued that I was shocked by that and asked what would happen in the company decided to apply to my account for a few thousand - how would I be able to stop that etc? Was my only option to close down my account etc? Finally she said that if I was able to come into the branch straight away I could sign a form and they could manually reject the direct debit. Which I have done. But they said that on an ongoing basis I have to keep checking my bank account and if I notice a payment has been taken, I have 24 hours to get down to my branch to sign another of these forms each time the company apply to my account! So its not exactly a long term solution.

I just find the whole thing ridiculous!

Thanks for that link macthepac - I came across that site earlier when I was googling and trying to learn about these types of direct debits. The bank were pretty adament that there is nothing they can do. It would be good to get some information in black and white about our rights. She said that a lot of the big companies like ESB and Bord Gais also use these types of mandate.


----------



## NovaFlare77 (1 Sep 2009)

sartay said:


> I did insist with the bank when they told me. She initially said there was nothing they could do. I argued that I was shocked by that and asked what would happen in the company decided to apply to my account for a few thousand - how would I be able to stop that etc? Was my only option to close down my account etc? Finally she said that if I was able to come into the branch straight away I could sign a form and they could manually reject the direct debit. Which I have done. But they said that on an ongoing basis I have to keep checking my bank account and if I notice a payment has been taken, I have 24 hours to get down to my branch to sign another of these forms each time the company apply to my account! So its not exactly a long term solution.
> 
> I just find the whole thing ridiculous!
> 
> Thanks for that link macthepac - I came across that site earlier when I was googling and trying to learn about these types of direct debits. The bank were pretty adament that there is nothing they can do. It would be good to get some information in black and white about our rights. She said that a lot of the big companies like ESB and Bord Gais also use these types of mandate.


 
Ask the bank for a copy of the mandate that you signed because i'm nearly 10000% certain that most mandates say that you just need to write to the bank to cancel it.


----------



## sartay (1 Sep 2009)

Another problem with the Originator Plus mandates is that they are not kept with the bank apparently! Or so I was told anyway. The originator keeps them. So the bank do not have the mandate. Another reason why I don't understand how something like this is allowed!


----------



## Towger (1 Sep 2009)

1. There are no mandates required by Originator Plus, that is what it is all about. The Originator (the company doing the DDing) has been given permission by the bank to direct debits without signed mandates being sent to your bank/branch. This is to save admin costs.

2. The reason the bank can’t stop them is a limitation to their computer system (or lack of knowledge of the person you were talking to, as I think they have gotten around to updating them at this stage),  but they are still liable when push comes to shove. Basically when a normal DD is performed against an account, a check against a table of allowed Originator Numbers is performed. If the Number is not found, an employee in the bank branch (the following morning) goes looking for the paper mandate. If not found the DD is bounced, if found the Originator Number is added to the table. When you tell a bank to stop a DD they delete the record/number from the table. With Originator Plus this table lookup is not performed, so the DD goes straight through. All that is need to block these DD is a flag or another table to mark an Originator Number as bad/blocked.

3. The rules are available on , calling it Direct Debit Plus, but is better know as Originator Plus.


----------



## sartay (1 Sep 2009)

Thanks for that Towger. I had a read through the guide on the landing page of that link. I'll send that info onto the bank then - seems like the woman I was speaking to definitely didn't have all the correct information. 

That's bad though - I spoke to a friend of mine and apparently she had this problem once before trying to cancel a gym membership. The bank kept telling her to sort it out with the gym - she said it took months to sort out.


----------



## 8till8 (2 Sep 2009)

Towger has it spot on, the bank passes the obligation of proof over the the direct debit originator. This is how companies can setup DD over the phone and they record the conversation where you accept the charges etc. However they are supposed to verify the customer identity first to make sure its not an impersonator.
You should write to the bank manager complaining about the incompetence of the branch staff, the bank must always carry out your instructions regarding outward payments on your account, even if they try and avoid the work.


----------

