# Why wont Gardai certify original passport?



## smiley

i want to open an a/c with sharewatch and need a certified copy of my original passport or driving licence. The cops refused to do it, saying they dont do this anymore. Anybody else had this problem? Its a pain as now i have to go off and find an accountant or solicitor, which i dont have and ask them to do it for me!


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## RiceCakes

smiley said:


> i want to open an a/c with sharewatch and need a certified copy of my original passport or driving licence. The cops refused to do it, saying they dont do this anymore. Anybody else had this problem? Its a pain as now i have to go off and find an accountant or solicitor, which i dont have and ask them to do it for me!



Sounds like you had the grumpy Garda in your local branch!!

When I recently opened my Rabobank account they needed a Garda stamped copy of my passport or driving license which the local Garda station did no problems.

By "certified" I assume stamping the copy and signing it would suffice ?

Think your local one was just annoyed you interrupted his cup of tea!!


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## smiley

yeh...all i wanted was a photocopy of the original stamped and signed! strange eh.


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## Foxtrot

I've had to do this a couple of times myself, and they were very suspicious each time. I also tried to get one once for my husband, who has a plastic Ukranian passport cover over his British passport (purchased in the Ukraine as a souvenier on a trip with the lads). The Garda point-blank refused to make a certified copy until I pulled it out of the cover and showed him that it was actually a British passport. I don't know why they haven't sent a notice around to all the stations- certified copies are required by the money laundering laws to open a lot of accounts, and none of the Gardai seem to have any clue about it.


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## RaboDirect

The Gardai should certify a copy of your passport or driving licence as they are a named authority that should do so. Occasionally some Garda stations are reluctant to do so. This link is the ML10 form that they should sign. 
[broken link removed] - Certificate of Identity. 

If your Garda station won't cooperate you can also have a chartered accountant, solicitor or your bank manager certify your ID. 

Hope this helps.

Regards,
RaboDirect


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## Sarsfield

You could contact the Garda Press & Public Relations office for clarification.



It's an iol e-mail address  

The Garda website is not a very professional effort.  What would PJ Stone think?


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## ubiquitous

RaboDirect said:


> If your Garda station won't cooperate you can also have a chartered accountant, solicitor or your bank manager certify your ID.



This is incorrect - a chartered accountant, or any other accountant, is NOT a recognised authority for this purpose. Neither, as far as I'm aware, is a bank manager.


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## Humpback

smiley said:


> Anybody else had this problem? Its a pain as now i have to go off and find an accountant or solicitor, which i dont have and ask them to do it for me!


 
I'd go back again to see if you can find another Garda on duty who might do this for you. I've done this frequently in my local Garda Station, and I've even gone into Pearse Street Station in town and had it done as well.

Also, get a few done at once if you do find a Garda will do it, it'll save trouble in the future.




			
				Foxtrot said:
			
		

> my husband, who has a plastic Ukranian passport cover over his British passport (purchased in the Ukraine as a souvenier on a trip with the lads). The Garda point-blank refused to make a certified copy until I pulled it out of the cover and showed him that it was actually a British passport.


 
Apart from the idiocy of having a Ukrainian cover on ones passport, are the Gardai actually qualified to certify a British passport? What would qualify a Garda to identify that a British passport is legitimate and not fake? I wouldn't have thought Gardai should be certifying any passport other than an Irish one.


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## MugsGame

ubiquitous said:


> This is incorrect - a chartered accountant, or any other accountant, is NOT a recognised authority for this purpose. Neither, as far as I'm aware, is a bank manager.



[broken link removed], you are wrong in this case.



> 50. NON FACE TO FACE: RESIDENT PERSONAL CUSTOMERS
> Personal Identity
> The following are some of the methods which are considered reasonable measures to
> establish evidence of personal identity. In this regard there are two options and a credit
> institution may use either option:
> Option One
> ?? A certified copy of a passport, drivers licence or identity form verified by Gardaí.
> Certification of passports/driving licences  should be by a suitable person. Suitable
> persons include:
> Gardaí Síochána/ Police Officers
> Chartered & Certified Public Accountants
> Notaries Public/Practising Solicitors
> Embassy /Consular staff
> Designated Bodies in Ireland or from a country listed in Appendix E.


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## ubiquitous

Thanks for correcting me, Mugs Game. Oddly enough when I was opening a stockbroker account recently, the stockbroker insisted the certification had to be by a solicitor or Garda. If I had known a Chartered Accountant would have sufficed I could have looked in the mirror!


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## Humpback

ubiquitous said:


> Thanks for correcting me, Mugs Game. Oddly enough when I was opening a stockbroker account recently, the stockbroker insisted the certification had to be by a solicitor or Garda. If I had known a Chartered Accountant would have sufficed I could have looked in the mirror!


 
Maybe the stockbrokers knew that you were a chartered accountant and therefore wanted to make sure that you'd get truely independent certification - i.e. not yourself or any of your accountant buddies?


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## ubiquitous

ronan_d_john said:


> Maybe the stockbrokers knew that you were a chartered accountant and therefore wanted to make sure that you'd get truely independent certification - i.e. not yourself or any of your accountant buddies?



They had no way at that stage of knowing my occupation. The request was made on a standard email which accompanied their application form. 

The IFSRA text above does not specify that the certification has to be done by an independent person.


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## smiley

There is no way i am filling in that ML10 form...when you read it your are actually certifing that you are not in the possession of a passport or driving licence! bonkers!

i am going to get onto the garda press office..something tells me the gardai in that station dont know what they are at!

i have emailed the press office..will let yee know what the situation is.


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## zag

smiley - unfortunately it seems that the way Garda stations are run in Ireland is very much down to the individuals in it.  I don't think your example is particularly rare.

I had a situation where I turned up at a station with my insurance details (as requested) to be asked which Garda it was that wanted my details.  I had no idea of course as I had been asked to come to the station, not report to a particular Garda.  My wife witnessed an incident and was contacted by a Garda for details.  There followed a series of voicemails back and forth for a few weeks - every time my wife got onto the station she was told - "Ah, sure that Garda is out today/on the road/in court"  All of these were no doubt true and the Garda probably was busy, but it meant that no progress was made for a few weeks because the individual wasn't available.  It seems strange that she couldn't have given the details on the record and be done with it.  I also had the same when trying to get some form signed/witnessed in a station - greeted by a - "Sure, I don't know who you are, I can't sign that . . ." as if I was asking for something out of the ordinary or illegal or bizarre.  I was just doing what it said on the form.  A subsequent attempt on a different day got the form signed no problems.  Makes you wonder about the value of having it signed/stamped/witnessed by a Garda.

z


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## Humpback

zag said:


> I also had the same when trying to get some form signed/witnessed in a station - greeted by a - "Sure, I don't know who you are, I can't sign that . . ." as if I was asking for something out of the ordinary or illegal or bizarre. I was just doing what it said on the form.


 
I've had this as well. The answer to that is that they're being asked to sign/certificate the copy to prove that it's an actual photocopy of the original passport or driving licence, rather than certifying who you are.

This was confirmed to me in Finglas Garda station recently where the Garda threw away the photocopy I'd made myself to make things easier for them and when back, made a new copy, and signed and stamped their copy.


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## Guest122

Garda in Donnybrook Station stamped and signed multiple photocopies of my Driving Licence about two weeks ago, no problem, no hassle, most polite and courteous.  May just depend on the individual Garda.

BB


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## liteweight

Irishtown Garda Station also made their own copy of my passport and then stamped it without any hassle.


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## Morgan 2.0

smiley said:


> i want to open an a/c with sharewatch and need a certified copy of my original passport or driving licence. The cops refused to do it, saying they dont do this anymore. Anybody else had this problem? Its a pain as now i have to go off and find an accountant or solicitor, which i dont have and ask them to do it for me!


 
I'm pretty sure they are oligated to do this for you, so long as your passport is in order and everything.

I've gotten about 6 of those things off my local garda station, so I don't see what the problem should be.


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## smiley

ok..this is the reply i received from the garda press office.

Hi 
I can not clarify why the Garda did not sign your form.I have spoken to Garda xxx xxx who is on duty at present in xxxxxx and he will call to you to your home to assist you.
Regards,​ 
xxx xxx,Garda
Garda Press Office.​

Quite ridiculous all of this! It is good of them to assist me, but if they had just done this simple task in the first place, there would be no need for all this.​ 
ps: i havent been at home yet, so i dont know if they have called to arrest me! ​


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## smiley

ok...went to a garda station in a different county...dublin..

the garda on duty didnt want to do this either...he started looking for the ml10 form but couldnt find one..so in frustration..he decided to photocopy the form, stamp and sign them....success!!

they must have been issued with some sort of directive not to certify original forms of 'id' like this..he mentioned the comissioner of oaths..i think i will go there in future.


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## Carrigbabe

defo a grumpy garda!
its part of his job to do it. if he wont do it, bring along a passport size photo of yourself & tell him you need an ML10 form to be filled in. 
Or just go to a different Station!


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## zag

Mrs Zag has just called from outside a Garda station where they refused to sign/stamp/certify/whatever her *original* documents.  I feel an email to the press office coming on.

Their reason for not certifying it . . . she didn't have the form with her stating why she needed it certified.  Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh.

I can accept they might have a problem when presented with a photocopy of documents since they can't vouch for the fact that the copy is correct, but when presented with the originals what on earth can the problem be ?

Ooooooooooooh, I'm mad now.

z


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## SarahMc

I think the issue may be the fact we finally have a resourced Garda Vetting Unit, so anyone working with children from GAA coaches to creche staff need to get docs certified to kick start the vetting procedure.  All Gardai have been made aware of this. This is a lot more serious than getting docs certified for selling shares/opening bank a/c and Gardai have become more cautious about certifying important documentation like passports and birth certs (rightly so if you ask me!)


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## jumper1

Hi had this problem a few months ago where i went to Garda Station to get a Photocopy of Passport Certified, bringing along Original Passport with me of course. 

The Garda said that due to the increase in the number of Forged Passports, Driving Licence's and other official Documents that have been recovered by the Gardai recently a decision was made not to Certify any official Document as they are not qualified to Authenticate them. With regard to my Passport i should go to the Passport Office and they should be able to help me.

Hope this helps


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## smiley

SarahMc said:


> I think the issue may be the fact we finally have a resourced Garda Vetting Unit,


 
....sorry, i dont quite understand what you mean?...is this unit at garda hq?


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## elcato

> I think the issue may be the fact we finally have a resourced Garda Vetting Unit


Is the this the canine and horse division ?


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## smiley

ha ha...funny...bit like some of the christmas cracker jokes i was reading at our cmas party last night!


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## dublinsense

Just call into a solicitor, i didnt want to travel all the way into my normal one and called into a random one - They Charged me 10Euro and i took 3minutes.


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## Carpenter

My wife got certified copies of our passports this week without any trouble, although the garda was a little unsure at first....


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## ulcercentral

I had to do this last year for a loan application - applied online. Anyway, my husband and I went into the station and asked for the copies to be stamped - we had the original documents (drivers licenses) and the copies already made and ready to be stamped and signed. The Garda on duty wouldn't do it, he said they no longer do this. I argued with him that they were listed on the loan documentation - showed this to prove it - and that this was why we were in asking in the first place.

I spoke with the institution in question about it - along with a miriad of other issues I had with them (another discussion in itself) - telling them that if the Gardai no longer do this then their docs should be updated. However, the person I was speaking with told me that this seems to be getting more and more common with applicants and that some have been told by Gardai that they are no longer doing these tasks due to their issues with the Garda Reserves being brought in - a silent protest of sorts 

Anyway, it seems to be down to the Garda and their mood on the day if you ask me!


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## Marathon Man

Recently I wanted to open an on-line (joint) account, copied the relevant documents and to the local Garda station went with my wife. Station was closed so went to the Divisional HQ. Garda at desk refused and said that the Gardai no longer do this and that I'd have to have it signed by a solicitor or commisioner for oaths. 

I decided to ask a few Garda acquaintences what the story is. Finally met them last night and they confirmed that the Gardai no longer witness these copies/documents.

So....I'm now going to email the Garda Press Office myself...

I have no intention of paying someone to facilitate me in opening a bank account. I don't think that this was the intention when the Money Laundering Act was enacted.


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## Joleen

I went to a garda station 2 months ago and they happily signed and stamped a copy of my passport which I needed to open an account - no questions asked. The policy could not of changed in 8 weeks!!!!


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## RaboDirect

This seems to be a recurring problem. Some Garda stations are helpful while others refuse to carry out their statutory obligations. The Gardai are members of the Financial Regulator's Anti Money Laundering Steering Committee. I have copied some text from Guidance Notes to Credit Institutions re the Criminal Justice Act 1994. 

*NON FACE TO FACE: RESIDENT PERSONAL CUSTOMERS
Personal Identity
*The following are some of the methods which are considered reasonable measures to establish evidence of personal identity. In this regard there are two options and a credit institution may use either option:​ 
*Option One*
_*A certified copy of a passport, drivers licence or identity form verified by Gardaí.*_
Certification of passports/driving licences should be by a suitable person. Suitable
persons include:
Gardaí Síochána/ Police Officers
Chartered & Certified Public Accountants
Notaries Public/Practising Solicitors
Embassy /Consular staff
Designated Bodies in Ireland or from a country listed in Appendix E.
See [broken link removed] (a good cure for insomnia!)​ 
The Guidance notes clearly state the obligations of the Gardai. Occassionally customers call us about particular Garda stations who will not cooperate and we generally call the Garda Fraud Office to notify them. ​


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## Bronte

Why do people need so many certified copies.  Can't they bring the original passport/ID to the bank they are opening the account with?


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## Joleen

Not if its an online account like Rabo or Nothern Rock. Even though they send the documents back to you would. You cannot send your original passport or driving licience to them in the post.


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## Towger

JoeFur said:


> You cannot send your original passport or driving licience to them in the post.



You can, I have done it with NR, no problems at all. Sent it registered and it came back in normal post. I am also sure they would be happy to copy it if you called in.

Towger.


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## muesli

I personally wouldn't risk sending my original passport in the post - always the chance of it getting stolen or lost..when opening bank accounts, I have used the Gardai at Pearse St a few times and never had a problem - I suppose its just a case of trying at a different time or a different station if one particular guard won't do it..annoying though !


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## RaboDirect

The vast majority of people do not need to have a photocopy of their passport or driving license verfied by the Gardai. We are required to establish your identity and we need two items to do this:

1. Photocopy of your driving license *or *passport 
AND
2. An *original* bank account statement issued within the last 6 months or a personal cheque drawn on your current account with your main bank.

If you cannot provide an original bank account statement or personal cheque then we require a certified copy of your passport or driving license. 

We are also obliged to request one proof of your address. You can do this by providing an original utilty bill, credit card statement, other bank statement, motor insurance certificate etc issued within the last 6 months. 

We do of course return all original documentation that you provide to us. Occassionally people do send us their passports but this is not recommended as this is a very valuable document which could get lost in the post. 

If you think you might have difficulty in gathering the required documentation the best thing to do is to call us (or any other institution you  are considering opening an account with) and we'll hopefully be able to assist you. 

I hope this post is of some help. The level of documentation required to open an account in Ireland is quite onerous compared to other juristictions.

RaboDirect


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## Towger

Do you have any problems with someone arriving at your door, instead of using the post?


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## RaboDirect

Towger said:


> Do you have any problems with someone arriving at your door, instead of using the post?



We don't operate a walk-in branch type service as we're not geared up for this. Our Customer Contact Centre operates from Mon - Fri 8am-8pm so this is how we prefer to handle customer queries. Sometimes people walk in off the street to our offices and we do of course facilitate them. The drawback here is that the person has to wait until a Customer Account Exec becomes free from the phones and this can sometimes take a while. So I'd suggest calling the Contact Centre first and take it from there.


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## Persius

RaboDirect said:


> The vast majority of people do not need to have a photocopy of their passport or driving license verfied by the Gardai. ...The level of documentation required to open an account in Ireland is quite onerous compared to other juristictions.
> 
> RaboDirect


 
And also varies depending on the institution.

Quinn Life required a certified copy of my passport when opening a fund with them. Opened Northern Rock account in approx 2001 with just standard copy of passport. A few months later they wrote back looking for a certified copy. In comparison, Rabo makes it quite easy to open an account (which I also did recently).


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## saibhreas

I tried to get copies of my passport and driving licence certified in Dundrum Garda station this morning (thanks to the great info on this site, I've decided to put some money in Dolmen's Green Effects fund, and they require this certification). I had the original documents with me, and had made the copies myself.

I was met at the counter by a nice young guard who looked all set to be helpful. Unfortunately he decided to check with an older bangharda, who came out and gave me a big spiel about how the Garda are no longer required to do this. 

She said that under the Criminal Justice Act of xxxx (unfortunately I didn't catch the date), the onus is now on financial institutions to 'establish your identity themselves'.  I asked if she had any idea how they do this, but she just repeated: 'they have to do it themselves'. She added that the banks are sending people to them every day of the week but that it's simply not a matter for the Garda since this Act was passed. She mentioned the ML10 form but said that's only for use if you lose your passport.

She was in no way grumpy - very courteous in fact. But very firm, and she seemed deadly sure of her facts. I'm afraid I just opened and closed my mouth like a goldfish a few times, and then walked away. Terenure Garda station isn't too far away from me, but I'm not sure if it's worth bothering to try them. I think I'll ring Dolmen on Monday and see what they suggest.


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## Kiddo

I had Rathfarnham Garda station sign and verify copies of my passport last year in order to take out a Tesco loan. The Garda I dealt with was really nice but she did mention that there has been a huge increase in people seeking verification of ID due to all the on-line banking facilities that have sprung up . The impression I got was that the Gardai feel they have better things to do...so maybe the Gardai as an organisation are fed up with all us Joe Soaps filing in to have our passport copies stamped.


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## saibhreas

Well in these days of shootings and stabbings and heaven knows what else, I can see where they're coming from.

Still, it's all very well to say that the onus is on the financial institutions to establish identity, but what seems to be happening in practice is that the onus is on the saver/investor to establish their own identity.  If I have to go to a solicitor and pay a fee to have my documents certified, well then _I _am doing the work of proving that I am who I say I am.  The financial institution is just sitting back watching the money roll in. 

Oh well! Some things never change.


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## gonk

saibhreas said:


> Well in these days of shootings and stabbings and heaven knows what else, I can see where they're coming from.


 
I can't. The requirement to verify customer's IDs and addresses is one imposed on the financial institutions by law, to prevent the crime of money laundering. The Gardaí are not doing the banks or their customers a favour by certifying copies of documents, they are fulfilling their duty to prevent crime. Anyone who's having difficulty getting documents certified would do well to remind the individual Garda concerned of these facts.


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## GeneralZod

I tried to get a photocopy of my passport certified today and was refused. The Garda said the local superintendent for the area issued them an instruction not to do it because they don't want their stamp going around on something that turns out to be fake. Fake passports are "easy" to get. He obviously wasn't going to budge  since he'd received an explicit order so I didn't push it. He asked me to tell all my friends, colleagues and relatives about it because they're tired of people coming in looking for it!


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## gonk

GeneralZod said:


> I tried to get a photocopy of my passport certified today and was refused. The Garda said the local superintendent for the area issued them an instruction not to do it because they don't want their stamp going around on something that turns out to be fake. Fake passports are "easy" to get. He obviously wasn't going to budge since he'd received an explicit order so I didn't push it. He asked me to tell all my friends, colleagues and relatives about it because they're tired of people coming in looking for it!


 
This Garda is talking rubbish. Financial institutions are required under money laundering law to get certified copies of ID documents. If the Gardaí are unable to detect false passports, how do they expect anyone else who might certify copies of them - such as bank officials or solicitors - to be able to? What this Garda is saying in effect is that money laundering law with regard to client ID is unenforceable. 

What the hell was all that taxpayers' money spent on biometric passports for if they're so easy to forge? If I was in your position I would write to the superintendent concerned and tell him or her that if they will not allow their subordinates to certify a copy of your ID, you will take a complaint to the Garda Ombudsman Commission.


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## Bronte

If a Garda refuses to certify your documents can you get them to write it down for you there and then that they are refusing to do so and the reasons for refusing coz I'd like that in writing before I would go to the Garda Ombudsman.  They might then think twice about it, it's easier to certify than write a reason for refusal.


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## Doc

your local bank should have no problem in certifying this- especially if it involves opening an account with another financial institution. 

If you're no longer living close to the branch you opened the account with, then this bank can call the branch closest to you and ask them to do this.

I've done this myself many times.


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## GeneralZod

Doc said:


> your local bank should have no problem in certifying this- especially if it involves opening an account with another financial institution.



I want it to set up a sharewatch account. Does the EU money laundering legislation allow a bank to certify it. I thought the list was a Garda, solicitor, notary public, or chartered/CP accountant.


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## lemeister

GeneralZod said:


> I want it to set up a sharewatch account. Does the EU money laundering legislation allow a bank to certify it. I thought the list was a Garda, solicitor, notary public, or chartered/CP accountant.


Presume it doesn't have to be a publicly practising accountant?  Is ACCA also recognised for this purpose?


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