# A very very difficult boss..what shall I do?



## puretone (21 May 2010)

Hello people,

I am facing this situation every day. I think I am handling well so far but things don't/won't change. At the end of the day I can only control the controllables..

Anyway in a nut shell, my relationship with my immediate boss has deteriorated significantly since January. It already hit the peak point in March, hence a third party HR consultant was brought in to mediate the issues by the big boss. (This is a small company and there is no HR person employed. I share an office with my boss.) 

At the meeting, we agreed on some bullet points we were going to work at. I believe I've been sincerely putting a lot of efforts into it to make the situation better since then. I made it clear though that I wouldn't want to talk about personal stuff at work with her and I would appreciate vice versa. She brings a lot of family/personal stuff into work and waste my time by talking to me about them (not interested at all) or being on the personal call out loud too long. I just wanted to be cordial and professional at work.

Now it's been a couple of month since the meeting and things have gone even worse. Her behaviour is unbelievable - unprofessional, vindictive and childish. Here go some examples. Most of them are basically the reasons that caused such a conflict in the first place. Now it just got worse.

1. She excludes me in her (work-related) outgoing emails by all means possible. I am the one who needs to action on those issues most of the times and I get to hear the final result only or from some other sources by forwarded emails or verbally.

2. We've had this long standing rule that she goes to lunch at 1pm or earlier and I go to lunch at 2pm. (One of us has to be present at the office all the time.) Now she just goes whenever she feels like (sometimes more then twice in different times) and however long she likes. It doesn't really bother me as long as she comes back before I go or she tells me in the morning if she has to go at my usual time but she never tells me any of this. On many occasions, she comes back a lot later than 2pm. She sometimes leaves work early and she just says 'bye' the moment she was leaving. Also when she can't come into work for some reason, she doesn't contact me but people in other irrelavent department. The same goes for her holiday. She doesn't tell me her holiday schedule. We cover for each other and I don't get to hear from her when she's booked a 2 week's holiday. I get to find out on the first day of her holiday (obviously!) or by hearing from somebody else. 

3. When I request holiday, she holds her approval for long without any good reason. 

4. She gives me tasks/projects in a short notice and tells me to do it by tomorrow or in a few days. If I ask some questions regarding those tasks, she lashes out at me in aggressive and confrontational manners. Once she gave me this unreasonable and impossible task without much details or deadline and suddenly told me she needed it in a few days. At that point I had to inform the big boss and he had to ask her why this had to be done and by a certain date and why she had to make me do things manually. Then he made the task much simpler using a downloadable spreadsheet. Without his involvement, I would have had to print off a load of paper and manually input all the figures for months long compared to a couple of hours actually taken!

5. She does not respond to my requests emails. Even after I politely ask her if that has been sorted, she answers abruptly and abrasively. And sometimes she says she doesn't remember so I have to prepare a new document.

6. I feel like I am walking on the eggshell when I ask her any questions due to her expected tsunami-like reaction.

7. She's sitting and waiting to catch me out with any tiny silly mistake. It actually happened yesterday that she went on an anger outburst on me for something trivial. OMG it should have been seen.

However I actually like what I do at work and have a good relationship with the rest of the people. I've believed as long as I excel at what I do - which I am trying really hard to perfect everything what I do - she wouldn't have much to criticise about me or my performance but alas, this annoys her even more and she tries to use her position/power to do things to me.

I was briefly considering moving on but from experience there is always somebody difficult in any workplace and no place is perfect. Since this is kind of an ideal job for my long-term career, I've been holding on to it. 

However today I've heard somebody committed suicide and part of the reason was the office bully. It makes me feel confused and disheartened that there will be light at the end of the tunnel or this is just walking into the even deepr toxic ocean?



I really appreciate any advice on my situation.
Thanks for reading a long story!


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## xxx (21 May 2010)

Start to write down everything, times dates etc, have backup emails.


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## puretone (21 May 2010)

Yep - I've been doing it actually. I only put the dates and a breif event but I'd better specify the time of the day? Though verbal abuse won't be ever evidenced but I will print off the emails...Thanks!


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## Caveat (21 May 2010)

You haven't really mentioned the stance/opinion of the "big boss" - is s/he reasonable? Do they know the full story with wagon woman or just that there are issues?

The obvious thing would be to approach them spelling out what you've said above - but I realise this may not be appropriate, depending on the circumstances.

+1 on the notekeeping/records etc


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## Kenbo (21 May 2010)

Sorry to hear your situation.A few pointers; keep a daily log with times, dates, and what was said and by whom in a lockable desk,record all instances of bullying and all outbursts,do not get involved in face to face confrontations.Inform her boss why you are doing this i.e. to protect yourself from the bullying.The more detailed the "paper trail" the better you can protect yourself.Also if your work is up to speed then no-one can have a complaint against you.Regarding the lunch breaks does her boss know about these absences from work? Keep all electronic files hidden on your P.C. A lot of work I know but they will be the only defense you will have if the situation goes further.Having a similiar incident at work myself.Very stressful, but as with all bullies when they realise that notes are being kept on an on-going basis their behaviour tends to change.Keep your cool at all times.Believe me she will soon give up.Good luck!


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## puretone (21 May 2010)

Caveat - The impression I get from my big boss is to keep out of the actual substance but try to keep it fair to both sides and not to affect the whole work atmosphere. 

Before the HR meeting, each of us had a chance to speak to him. Obviously I do not know what picture she painted to him. I said what I had to say and he concluded it's out of his zone and he didn't seem to want to be seen involved too much. That's probably why he called in this external HR expert.

He said he was trying to be neutral but well..sometimes being neutral is not really neutral because it implies you are condoning the bully.


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## elcato (21 May 2010)

Have you reported back to the HR consultant on how things are going ? Here's what I would do given your numbered points above.
1. When you finally get the forwarded email reply to all and bcc your (big) boss enquiring as to how come you were not on the original mail. Start the first time by giving her an out like 'I seem to have been mistakingly missed on the start of this mail trail.
2. Why does this matter ? If you go and take an hour when it suits you is that not OK too ?
3. I would assume a no reply is approval and let her know this for future reference OR I would just simply ask her for approval (you share the same office)
4. Unacceptable behaviour which should result in a report to your HR or big boss. As an aside why were you or her not aware of the excel spreadsheet or was a first time task ?
5 & 6. She may have genuinely forgotten now and then but it seems she is in need of some help (her domestics appear to be the problem here). See above
7. Any chance you may be on tenterhooks here and it may a reason for your overreaction ? Not being smart but just an outside observation that above scenarios can play on peoples minds although still not acceptable either.

Bottom line is you need to review the differences again via HR. One word of advice I would give would be to try and tackle one point at a time and see if you can get a bit of harmony in that.


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## puretone (21 May 2010)

Kenbo - thanks for your encouraging words. 

As a matter of fact, we will have a follow-up meeting with the HR person in Sep, I will carry on documenting all instances in details. I am a bit apprensive to inform her boss of my doing this though. I don't know it's just my impression that he doesn't want to be involved in it too much. He may have noticed that she's out too long at lunch break but that's it - I don't think he sees beyond it or even if he does, he doesn't seem to really care.

Yep I try to keep cool with her. I only talk with her on work matters in a cordial manner. Breathe in and out. Try to physically slow down. When her outburst happened yesterday, I however had to stand up for myself. I told her (it wasn't totally calm my bad!) that I do include her in all my outgoing emails as she's aware and I expect her to do the same. She was trying to ignore me but I know it was heard.


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## aristotle (21 May 2010)

Keep documenting, plus document how her actions etc made you feel at the time.

I would take her on to be honest, you have tried all routes so I think you should be much more assertive with her. Take no crap but in a calm reserved way.

Chin up, I know its wares you down this kind of office crap.


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## puretone (21 May 2010)

elcato -

1. Thanks - I will try that one next time. The only thing is that I don't want to inflict the person who forwards that email to me. On many occasions, I get told by somebody in the different department of what's happening unofficially. Or I call someone to enquire something then I get a bit embarrased that he's already informed by her. 

2. It is OK in general but when she comes back close to 3pm I am starving to death! 

3. Yep I ask her if it's still not done (I can see it's not done from the system). She shows too much of raw discomfort for that. Otherwise I take it as a yes.

4. I wasn't aware of that since it was a first time task for me. She may or may not know that and I believe as a boss if she hadn't known she could have at least asked around before telling me to do it forecefully - she specifically told me that I should go about manually.

5&6. I agree. She's very forgetful. So I try to log when I gave anything to her and to send the stuff by email if possible. But she doesn't give up blaming me by saying 'No I don't remember.'.

7. Maybe. I try not to overanalyse her behaviour. When things happen repeatedly though, I can't help wondering if she's being intentional or hence forming a certain opinion. Another colleague of mine in a different department is observing her behaviour impartially and says to me she's not doing any favour for herself and she's not being professional at all. The colleague also mentioned that my boss seems threatened by me as I have now reached a point where I can do all daily work perfectly without her involvement, much better than her (it's her words, not mine).

Thanks. I need to keep my side of bargain and I will keep your advice in mind.


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## puretone (21 May 2010)

aristotle - Thanks. Being assertive is one of the areas I am not great at. But I am working on it. In the past I've had a few disasterous confrontations with her and couldn't get the message through. The reason was that I felt like arguing with a 6 year old girl who had no logic but no fear either. 

At this point I am focusing on perfecting my work and limiting unncessary communication with her. I should really talk with her more often than email but I find it more comfortable and easier to keep track of all communications and make other people (my big boss, head of different depts if necessary) aware by cc'ing them what I am doing (trying really hard but not receiving the same).

Feeling much better after writing. Cheers.


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## Complainer (21 May 2010)

If she is bullying you, you need to call her on this, and make a formal complaint. Don't wait for September or for anything. Make a formal complaint of bullying today.

Why do you have to wait for her to return from lunch? Do you really, really have to have one out of two present? Can you reach agreement with her and your big boss that you each make your own arrangements for lunch, and use voicemail to catch up on urgent issues when you get back.

THe idea of being cc'd on every email seems crazy. I'd hate the idea of my reports copying me on everything, and I'd hate to have to copy them on everything. There has got to be a better way to split the work than this.


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## puretone (21 May 2010)

Complainer - Yes..I am thinking about that. By saying 'bullying' do I not need more grounds or is it enough? I find it still a bit cautious to expand further. However I won't wait till Sep to contact the HR person though.

We do get quite a fews calls/emails all day and need to pass instructions to other departments. We've been ok with this lunch time arrnagements so far and she's doing this to annoy me I think. The big boss wants us to alternate lunch time too so either of us is always present at the office.

She yells at me if I accidently leave her out in the email no matter how trivial it is. She wants to be on top of me and her overbearing supervision is pathetic. To protect myself, I cc her all the time though.


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## MANTO (21 May 2010)

Here is a piece of advice that will stop her in her tracks:


If she starts again, remain seated at your desk.
Do not approach her
Let her approach you
If she approaches you and acts in a threatening manner
Jump from your seat backing away from her (acting very frightened) and tell to please back off that she is frightening you. Tell her you feel intimidated by her behaviour.
MAKE SURE OTHERS IN THE OFFICE HEAR AND SEE
Watch her attitude change.


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## Black Sheep (21 May 2010)

Before you even contemplate a bullying complaint make sure you check out the "official" definition of bullying to be sure your situation matches the criteria.
I am aware of situations where bullying complaints were made by people who did clearly understand clearly the criteria.  The consequences for both parties were not pretty


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## Complainer (21 May 2010)

puretone said:


> Complainer - Yes..I am thinking about that. By saying 'bullying' do I not need more grounds or is it enough? I find it still a bit cautious to expand further. However I won't wait till Sep to contact the HR person though.


Only you can decide if it is enough. Check out www.hsa.ie for advice on what constitutes bullying.



puretone said:


> We do get quite a fews calls/emails all day and need to pass instructions to other departments. We've been ok with this lunch time arrnagements so far and she's doing this to annoy me I think. The big boss wants us to alternate lunch time too so either of us is always present at the office.


Is it necessary for the business to have one of you present? If you can work around this, you can eliminate one point of conflict.



puretone said:


> She yells at me if I accidently leave her out in the email no matter how trivial it is. She wants to be on top of me and her overbearing supervision is pathetic. To protect myself, I cc her all the time though.



Again, this is something that really needs to be negotiated with her and your big boss. cc'ing every mail to any manager is not standard practice in my experience.


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## puretone (21 May 2010)

Manto,

Hmmm that sounds like I will need a bit of acting skills. However I've got your point. The most difficult thing is that these things are happening in a confined space so nobody really sees it. Our office is all distant from one another, I am not sure if I can make others see it but I can make them hear if I raise my voice. Thanks for your advice.


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## MANTO (21 May 2010)

puretone said:


> I can make them hear if I raise my voice. Thanks for your advice.


 
Exactly, as well as making notes, speak to colleagues and make sure others know exactly what is happening. Just tell people the facts. Dont exaggerate an incident, dont leave yourself liable for slander but make sure your voice is heard. 

It may seem OTT but every time something happens, request a meeting with her boss. I am sure he will get sick of his time being taken up over these incidents and want to sort it out asap.


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## puretone (21 May 2010)

Complainer - 
1. I will check the link you posted. Thanks.
2. It is inconsiderate of her but it is not a major issue. I will def work around it.
3. Hmm..I don't know..maybe it's because I am working in a conservative sector where everything is rather hush-hush. The tone was already set by the big boss and intensified by my own boss. My boss seems quite scared of the big boss so she is overly premptive with me on many things. When I actually talk to the big boss about an issue with her, he gives me a bewildered look. Even then he still doesn't want to come across too involved or caring about the staff.


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## TreeTiger (24 May 2010)

Trinity College has an Anti Bullying Centre - here's a [broken link removed].  I believe they give advice over the phone.  It might be worth talking to someone there.  Good luck, no-one should have to put up with this stuff at their place of work.


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## rumble (24 May 2010)

Hi Puredrop

I sympathise with your situation, all you can do is your job and hope that she will get tired of being a b***h!  She seems to be very childish.  I have a similar problem but in this instance I am the office senior and a girl that I hired verbally abused me in front of our members in our office.  - A relation of mine lives next door and was partying all night and she saw fit to come in and blow off to me - I was routed to the spot as was everyone else and I told her very calmly that I did not want to hear anymore.  I stayed completely professional, spoke to her when I needed to etc.  Again like your boss she has personal problems - guy who beats her up - and we get told lies after lies, one minute she is not with him and the next we hear that she is.  
To cut a long story short, my boss asked me to meet with her, that the current situation was not working for her!, Told him I would - didn't actually know until after the meeting my boss told me that she told him that I was bullying her but she didn't mention this at the meeting.  My boss kept asking her if there was anything else but she didn't say, I think she thought I wouldn't agree to the meeting!  It was a tough decision for me but I am a professional and am here to work.
I have since heard from new employees that she has told them that she was bullyed by me - I have said this to my boss but he said that we have to allow for her cause she is MENTALLY UNSTABLE!! 
Now I am managing fine, I only speak to her regarding work relating issues and nothing personal at all.  She was told not to bring her personal issues into work but with new employees she is filling their head.  I am just hoping that it is just a matter of time. 
You have to remember that this is your job and it is her that has the issues not you.  You are right not to bring anything to your boss just yet and you could end of looking like a trouble maker.  So chin up and hopefully what goes around comes around. Take Care


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## shopgirl (25 May 2010)

Talking to your boss is the first thing you should do.  Be careful about the way you word things - don't say "I'm being bullied" instead say " I feel bullied" - no one can argue with how you feel.

Explain how you feel, and that you have done your best and are now not sure what else you can do and that you feel you really need to seek advice regarding employment law.  I'd be surprised if your boss doesn't do something when he hears those words.


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## number7 (25 May 2010)

Ok one thing at a time. You are entitled to a lunch break, if the arranged time is 2pm then I suggest that you wait until 2.10pm and then get up and leave and go for your lunch. 

When you return there will be trouble but dont back down, insist that you are entitled to your lunch break and you are also entitled to know what time it is at.

The following day repeat the process and keep going until it forces the issue.


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## Bronco Lane (26 May 2010)

puretone said:


> I made it clear though that I wouldn't want to talk about personal stuff at work with her and I would appreciate vice versa. She brings a lot of family/personal stuff into work and waste my time by talking to me about them (*not interested at all*) or being on the personal call out loud too long. I just wanted to be cordial and professional at work.


 
Talking about family stuff in work would be a normal thing. Certainly a very Irish thing in most offices I would have thought. Were you not coming across as being a bit unfriendly? _"not_ _interested at all" . _I am not sure what you mean when you say "on the personal call out loud too long".


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## Grizzly (26 May 2010)

puretone said:


> 5 Another colleague of mine in a different department is observing her behaviour impartially and says to me she's not doing any favour for herself and she's not being professional at all.


 
How did you arrange for this colleague to observe her? How does she do it because I thought that all your offices were distanced from each other?


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## puretone (26 May 2010)

Thanks all for taking time to respond to my post.

Bronco Lane - Yep it is normal to talk about family, hobbies and other personal stuff. I'm more of a listener than a talker and I am friendly enough I believe. It just reached a point where I found it beyond excessive. Just by being in the same office, I got to know what her extended family (her own family, her mother, in-laws, sisters, sisters children, childrens' friends, etc) were up to every day. When she's on the phone with her family/friends, I tend to leave the office (1) for her privacy; 2) distracting) if it lasts more than 15 minutes or so. Well also I got tired of listening to her reporting back to me after those long telephone conversations. The HR consultant adivsed us that we should feel comfortable to say to each other 'Sorry but I am not interested.' and this was one of our bullet points.

I might have come across rather abrupt in my post (saying 'not interested at all), but believe me I've had enough.

Grizzly - She's a head of another department and the one who gets (almost) always cc'ed in my boss's emails. She finds my boss's behaviour very unprofessional that I am not in those emails since I should be the person who's going to have to action on them.


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## elcato (26 May 2010)

Are you allowed listen to music via headphones in work ? This always sorts out any problems I have when I have either loud phone calls or sudden unofficial meetings around my workstation.


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## Grizzly (26 May 2010)

puretone said:


> Grizzly - She's a head of another department and the one who gets (almost) always cc'ed in my boss's emails. She finds my boss's behaviour very unprofessional that I am not in those emails since I should be the person who's going to have to action on them.


 
But if you are sharing this tiny office do you need to get an email? Can she not just ask you, considering you are only a few feet away? Does everyone send copies of their emails to everyone else?

Can the head of the other department not speak to your boss about you not receiving her emails?  

I don't think that it is good to see you and the head of the other department undermining your boss's behaviour. It looks like a bit of spying, bitching and backbiting going on. Not good.


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## IsleOfMan (27 May 2010)

From reading one of your earlier posts I thought that this was the problem?

"_Unfortunately, the head office has imposed a group-wide salary/bonus freeze in year 2009, meaning my qualification didn't make a single difference on my salary. I wasn't happy at all so I spoke to my big boss. He was very apologetic and sympathetic but he told me firmly that_ _he couldn't do anything about it for now as this was across the board. He said he would try at every board meeting but he couldn't guarantee when he could give me a pay rise. He said I deserved one and he wanted to give a nice one in March 09. _

_Since then my scope of work has grown a lot and so have my responsibilities. It was exciting initially but I began to resent it all. With the thought of not getting what I deserve in mind, I was unable to motivate my self. My direct boss is now teaching me how to do some regulatory returns she used to do, instead of getting the buzz from learning something new,_ _I am becoming very bitter and angry and it is upsetting me". _

I see that the boss you are complaining about was teaching you something new. Maybe she sensed your bitterness and attitude to your job and has given up on you because she has tried everything with you.

The more I read the more I think that this is just a case of *"me, me, me".*


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## puretone (27 May 2010)

This will be my last post regarding this issue. I'm focusing on what I think is the best for me and the situation. 

Grizzly - It's your judgement call. However, I do not think that's a bitching or backstabbing if that is one of few ways to find out whether she's coming in to work today or has taken a day off tomorrow or what doc I would be needing to prepare in the afternoon. It's informative and facilitating work-wise.

Parklane - When I posted that article a while back, I felt quite bitter and angry I had to admit. I was particularily in bad state at that point - that's why I probably posted it and I felt emotional. Anyway after reading all the posts and much consideration, I decided to stay on with the company and kept up positively. I showed more enthusiasm and eager in all tasks given. 

Patience paid off. I got a handsome payrise this March and I was told by my big boss at an individual pay review meeting that he made a case for me to the head office, though the pay freeze was still on at the manager level. I was happy and grateful for his input. When my boss found out about it, she didn't sound happy and demanded what I discussed with my big boss at the meeting. She got angry when I kept it brief.

All I can say is that those problems (excluding me in the emails, too much personal talks, lashing out at me for something trivial, telling me to consider moving on, etc) already existed at that time I posted or even well before. It carried on building up gradually and I couldn't take it any more. Enough was enough.

In a starnge way, I find the current situation rather liberating that I don't have to pretend to be buddy-buddy with her. I hope she accepts our new working relationship at some point in the future. Till then I will keep being cordial and professional to her.


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## SlurrySlump (27 May 2010)

puretone said:


> This will be my last post regarding this issue.


 
I think that the above sentence sums the situation up in many ways.

Recent posts getting to close to the bone?


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## ney001 (27 May 2010)

SlurrySlump said:


> I think that the above sentence sums the situation up in many ways.
> 
> Recent posts getting to close to the bone?



Unfortunately as with a lot of bullying threads the writer has a very one-sided view of what has been happening and I think that Parklane may have a point.  I am surprised that despite OP's 'professional' behavior and good work ethic etc that she would instruct somebody else to monitor this persons activities.  Sounds to me like getting the office on side and getting people to back you up.  If the person involved needs to be monitored then somebody (independent) should be instructed by your overall boss who reports back only to your boss - i.e not to you!.  Maybe this person is bullying you but you need to take a step back and look at your own behavior and how this could be construed!


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## SlurrySlump (27 May 2010)

puretone said:


> The colleague also mentioned that my boss seems threatened by me as I have now reached a point where I can do all daily work perfectly without her involvement, much better than her (it's her words, not mine).


 
You were employed to bring certain skills to the office. Your boss has her own set of skills that may or may not be similar to your own. Maybe she is good with clients you might be good with computers. 

At the end of the day she is your boss with presumably a lot more experience than you have. Haven't you only recently got your exams?. How can you say that you can now do her job better than she can?

You keep referring to the fact that you used to work for one of the big 4 accountancy firms. What experience have you head working in a smaller office environment. Did you come to this job with an attitude?

Finally, when working for one of the big 4 did they help you financially toward your studies, offer you study time off etc?


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## annR (28 May 2010)

I don't see that at all, I take the OPs comments in good faith.  If you are doing your best to be professional and cordial with someone in the office and don't want to listen to their personal life stories well I can certainly commiserate with that.  And the lunchtime thing if you just take the facts on that is unreasonable.


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## BOXtheFOX (28 May 2010)

puretone said:


> I just wanted to be cordial and professional at work.


 
Yet on the 21st May you made long and detailed posts at the following times.

12.56 p.m.   1.28p.m.   2.05p.m.  2.15p.m   2.52p.m.  3.22p.m.  3.36p.m 4.30 p.m.  4.41p.m

Let me guess. You weren't at work that day?


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## Greg Barry (28 May 2010)

Sorry to read your story.  This is still an all to common situation in the work place in Ireland.  I have been involved in a couple of cases like this in the past with friends and personally.  I can't add much to what has been said above but I just wanted to commend you on raising the issue at work and seeking soloutions.  that will stand to you in any future developments.  Good luck with this.


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## SlugBreath (28 May 2010)

Greg Barry said:


> This is still an all to common situation in the work place in Ireland.


 
Is it not a situation where people are confused about what bullying really is?


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