# Preloading your Credit Card before going on holidays



## Murt10 (14 Jul 2006)

Brendan said:
			
		

> 6) Load up your Credit Card before you go abroad and take out cash on it.
> 
> There is no cash advance fee.



Extremely dangerous. 

If your card is in pre-loaded and in credit, and you are probably talking about a couple of thousand for a family here, and if that money is fraudently taken from your account, the bank is not liable. You have to suffer the loss of the amount that the card was in credit for yourself. It could turn out to be the most expensive and least enjoyable holiday you have ever had, at least, I cannot imagine how I could possibly enjoy a holiday after finding out that someone had taken 2-3 grand off me. 

The interest that you will have to pay for taking out cash advances will pale into insignificance beside the potential loss you are leaving yourself open to.


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## Ron Burgundy (14 Jul 2006)

*Re: Holiday Money Tips*



			
				Murt10 said:
			
		

> Extremely dangerous.
> 
> If your card is in pre-loaded and in credit, and you are probably talking about a couple of thousand for a family here, and if that money is fraudently taken from your account, the bank is not liable. You have to suffer the loss of the amount that the card was in credit for yourself. It could turn out to be the most expensive and least enjoyable holiday you have ever had, at least, I cannot imagine how I could possibly enjoy a holiday after finding out that someone had taken 2-3 grand off me.
> 
> ...


i have to agree with this in principle, i like loading my CC when going to the states but i have been warned by bank officals that they are not liable for anything over the credit limit, that is extra money you put on to have it in debit.


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## Ron Burgundy (14 Jul 2006)

*Re: Holiday Money Tips*

one point i'd like to ask is if i have a CC with a lender and i don't want to preload before i go, is it an option to do on line transfers at 2 day intervals, that why you have the security of not losing the whole preloaded amount if the card is stolen.


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## ClubMan (14 Jul 2006)

*Re: Holiday Money Tips*

Depends on your bank. My bank (_PTSB_) take up to 5 working days for a transfer from a _Switch Current Account _to a _PTSB VISA CC _account if I recall correctly. It may be possible to speed it up with electronic transfers or something like that. As for transfers every couple of days perhaps you can set up a _DD _or something?


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## Ron Burgundy (14 Jul 2006)

*Re: Holiday Money Tips*

I recently moved to bank of ireland and i notice on the  banking 365 you can set up payments or transfers in advance so maybe that the way to go for me.


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## MugsGame (14 Jul 2006)

*Re: Holiday Money Tips*



> I like loading my CC when going to the states but i have been warned by bank officals that they are not liable for anything over the credit limit, that is extra money you put on to have it in debit.



Ron and Murt -- I am aware the banks claim this, but would like to see case law on it.

If after a debit transaction you have a debit balance (you owe the bank money), you've borrowed from the bank, and are protected by the Consumer Credit Act. The situation where after the transaction you still have a credit balance (you've preloaded the card) is greyer as the Consumer Credit Act does not apply. But I'm not convinced the bank can disclaim all responsibility for acting on fradulent instructions, despite T&Cs or what they tell you.


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## ClubMan (14 Jul 2006)

*Re: Holiday Money Tips*



			
				Ron Burgundy said:
			
		

> I recently moved to bank of ireland and i notice on the banking 365 you can set up payments or transfers in advance so maybe that the way to go for me.


 That sounds handy. Find out how long the transfer will take though.


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## ClubMan (14 Jul 2006)

*Re: Holiday Money Tips*



			
				MugsGame said:
			
		

> If after a debit transaction you have a debit balance (you owe the bank money), you've borrowed from the bank, and are protected by the Consumer Credit Act. The situation where after the transaction you still have a credit balance (you've preloaded the card) is greyer as the Consumer Credit Act does not apply. But I'm not convinced the bank can disclaim all responsibility for acting on fradulent instructions, despite T&Cs or what they tell you.


Isn't it the case that funds fraudulently taken from a current account (e.g. via _Laser _skimming) are covered in part or full? Why would a _CC _account be different?


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## CCOVICH (14 Jul 2006)

*Re: Holiday Money Tips*

A CC would be different (IMHO) as it is not really meant to be used in the manner we are discussing, i.e. kept in credit and used for withdrawing cash.


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## MugsGame (14 Jul 2006)

*Re: Holiday Money Tips*

Exactly ClubMan! But Ron and Murt's point is a mantra oft repeated by the banks. Not that the banks would have an interest in directing us towards more expensive foreign currency options...


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## ClubMan (14 Jul 2006)

*Re: Holiday Money Tips*

Can anybody quote their _CC _terms & conditions in relation to this point for analysis?


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## CCOVICH (14 Jul 2006)

*Re: Holiday Money Tips*

I don't have ts and cs to hand, but I researched this before (for this Key Post):



			
				CCOVICH said:
			
		

> Using the cash advance facility can be a useful way of accessing money when abroad if you pre-load your card, i.e. lodge money to put your balance in credit. There are no withdrawal fees (none charged by the card provider, however the ATM provider may levy a separate charge), and the foreign exchange rate is generally more competitive than changing cash at a bureau de change. You should be aware that you may be liable for any unauthorised withdrawals/fraud on the card while the account is in credit, so exercise caution if building up a credit balance on your credit card as a means of accessing cash.


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## Brendan Burgess (15 Jul 2006)

I wonder has anyone ever had a claim refused for a preloaded credit card? 

The terms and conditions quoted seem to me to be recommending the practice, but putting in a rider in case of careless use of the card. I would imagine that it would only be invoked if someone put in thousands of euro and had their pin number written on their card. 

Brendan


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## orka (16 Jul 2006)

Ulster Bank cc statements specifically ask you not to do load the cc but to ask for an increased limit instead


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## ClubMan (16 Jul 2006)

I can't see anything in the _PTSB ICE VISA _card terms & conditions (at the end of the [broken link removed]) that obviously limits the bank's liability in the case of cash having been preloaded into the account being used without authorisation. Other than the usual disclaimers where the cardholder doesn't retain his/her _PIN _securely etc.


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## Marion (16 Jul 2006)

Amex blue will not cover you for credit balances.

Marion


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## Brendan Burgess (17 Jul 2006)

Hi Marion

What does that mean? That they won't cover any fraud while it is in credit?

Brendan


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## Marion (17 Jul 2006)

Hi Brendan

I rang AMEX now to further explore this and I have, on this occasion, been told that the fact that the credit card is in credit in not relevant in the case of fraud.

The credit balance would be covered for fraud depending on the circumstances.

I also rang BOSi and was informed that if a card were preloaded that it would not be covered for fraud, and they also mentioned that if a card is preloaded it is flagged as suspicious under money laundering acts.

Marion


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## ClubMan (17 Jul 2006)

Marion said:
			
		

> depending on the circumstances.


Such as...?





> I also rang BOSi and was informed that if a card were preloaded that it would not be covered for fraud


 Unless this can be independently corroborated via the terms & conditions I would not take their word for this.


> and they also mentioned that if a card is preloaded it is flagged as suspicious under money laundering acts.


 I find this hard to believe. Surely this would only be the case of c. €13K or more was lodged and the normal money laundering flagging rules applied?


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## ubiquitous (17 Jul 2006)

Marion said:
			
		

> I also rang BOSi ... and they also mentioned that if a card is preloaded it is flagged as suspicious under money laundering acts.



I too find this hard to believe. The Garda Bureau of Fraud Investigation (who are responsible for processing reports made under anti-money laundering acts) would take a very dim view of any bank routinely flagging small amounts in this way.


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## CCOVICH (17 Jul 2006)

I don't find it hard to believe.

The €13k limit is a statutory obligation-regardless.

Before the Gardai are informed the bank in question will go through their own procedures-not every transaction will be reported as a matter of course.

But credit cards are not supposed to be routinely used in the manner we are discussing, i.e. keeping in relatively high levels of credit, and someone routinely doing this would certainly arouse my suspicions.


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## ClubMan (17 Jul 2006)

CCOVICH said:
			
		

> The €13k limit is a statutory obligation-regardless.
> 
> Before the Gardai are informed the bank in question will go through their own procedures-not every transaction will be reported as a matter of course.


 It may be flagged as a fraud or suspicious usage pattern risk by the bank's internal systems but for them to claim that it is flagged as a money laundering risk sounds to me like a porky designed to scare the customer into not doing this! Don't forget that the bank have a vested interest in discouraging people from doing this and encouraging them to use _CC _cash advances or _Cirrus/Maestro/Plus+ _withdrawals instead.


> But credit cards are not supposed to be routinely used in the manner we are discussing, i.e. keeping in relatively high levels of credit, and someone routinely doing this would certainly arouse my suspicions.


 Says who? No _T&Cs _quoted so far support this assertion.


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## CCOVICH (17 Jul 2006)

ClubMan said:
			
		

> Says who? No _T&Cs _quoted so far support this assertion.


 
Says me-like I said it would arouse my supsicions.


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## ClubMan (17 Jul 2006)

I was referring to this:


> But credit cards are not supposed to be routinely used in the manner we are discussing, i.e. keeping in relatively high levels of credit


I have seen nothing so far that authoritatively states this to be the case for any _CC _in particular or _CCs _in general.


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## CCOVICH (17 Jul 2006)

The term 'Credit Card' certainly suggests otherwise.


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## ClubMan (17 Jul 2006)

Hardly authoritative though?


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## CCOVICH (17 Jul 2006)

The _official_ name of the product?  Up to interpretation I guess.


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## NHG (17 Jul 2006)

There was a time, many many moons ago the I used to get interest on the amount that I had in cr on my cc - like everything else that disappeared - therefore there should be no problem to pre-load if they were willing to pay interest.


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## ClubMan (17 Jul 2006)

CCOVICH said:
			
		

> The _official_ name of the product?  Up to interpretation I guess.


 Not really. As with any financial product/agreement only the terms & conditions (subject to the law of the land) are authoritative and the final arbiter regardless of the name of the product. The point here is that this stuff is not a matter of interpretation - it's governed by the agreement and if that does not say that credit balances are a problem then they are not a problem.


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## CCOVICH (17 Jul 2006)

ClubMan said:
			
		

> Not really. As with any financial product/agreement only the terms & conditions (subject to the law of the land) are authoritative and the final arbiter regardless of the name of the product. The point here is that this stuff is not a matter of interpretation - it's governed by the agreement and if that does not say that credit balances are a problem then they are not a problem.


Not to labour the point, but surely ts and cs of use can be implicit (what I am referring to) as well as explicit/expressly stated?


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## ClubMan (17 Jul 2006)

I don't think so. The written _T&Cs _are normally attached to the _CC_ agreement and are the only ones that the customer explicitly signs up to. For a financial institution to vary or supplement these implicitly would surely be dodgy? Of course they may vary or supplement these explicitly from time to time by writing to the cardholder.

Anyway - take my own case in point: the _PTSB ICE VISA _card agreement and terms & conditions that I linked to earlier don't seem to have any specific limitations on having credit balances on the _CC _account or circumscribing the bank's liability in the case of fraudulent/unauthorised losses of such money. Does anybody disagree?


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## Murt10 (19 Jul 2006)

From todays Irish Indo

"Martin Warwick, head of Barclaycard's Fraud Operations, said Ireland's popularity with British visitors inevitably meant more cards being lost or stolen. 

"However, I'd remind cardholders that their card is still safer than carrying cash, as cardholders are not held liable for any losses from fraudulent activity," he said." 

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1655857&issue_id=14373


From what he's saying here, it would seem to me that the banks want you to preload your card rather than carry cash and if something goes wrong you will not be held liable for fraudulent activity. Mind you isn't this bloke from the same bank that the CEO said that he wouldn't allow his family to borrow money on their CC as it was too expensive


Murt


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## prech (19 Jul 2006)

Hi

There is not a hard and fast rule for this, it depends on the bank, they will review indivual cases and base result on merit of case, but will be stricter on certain type of frauds, if your card is used to withdraw cash from ATM there will be stricter policy than if your card was used to purchase something in a shop or online, also depends on Merchants security, ie a shop which has not got chip'n'Pin, they would quickly raise a chargeback and your money would be returned.

So in Short a question you should raise with your bank before taking out cc, although i doubt you would get a straight answer. 

i know A.I.B. and B.O.I. review it per case


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## ubiquitous (19 Jul 2006)

CCOVICH said:
			
		

> The €13k limit is a statutory obligation-regardless.
> ...credit cards are not supposed to be routinely used in the manner we are discussing, i.e. keeping in relatively high levels of credit,



The title of this thread is "Preloading your Credit Card before going on holidays"

Most people go on holidays only a few times a year, certainly not "routinely"

Very few people I know spend €13k on their holidays. There should rarely be a need for anyone to preload their card to €13k for holiday purposes. As the original poster said "you are probably talking about a couple of thousand for a family". 

Anyone who preloads their card with a couple of grand a few times a year is hardly likely to arouse money laundering suspicions.  Anyone who regularly preloads their card with sums up to €13k could certainly expect to be watched closely. There is a big difference between the 2 scenarios.


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## CCOVICH (19 Jul 2006)

Going on holidays a few times a year, for a few years, would suggest a routine, but again, that's open to interpretation.

As for ML, different banks etc. have different internal guidelines-it's not something I would be overly concerned about, but I do think that credits of a few thousand euro several times a year may raise certain flags. I'm basing this on experience-it's not speculation.

I'm not trying to engage in scaremongering-just want to inform people of *potential* risks.


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## johndoe64 (21 Jul 2006)

I have a BOI card top it up every week with a couple of K used for work, I have never had anybody ring or question it.


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## Guest127 (22 Jul 2006)

holidays or othwise I preload my card every so often . the one thing to remember though is that if you lose a card which is in credit, that such credit ( or preloaded amount) is NOT covered by the reporting of the loss of the card, only when the card is in debit are the cc providers liable. so if you lose a card on holidays, and the card is used to purchase xxxxx, then you lose any money you had in credit on that card. I agree with the poster who says that most people wouldn't spend €13,000 on holidays so I would be suspicious of such amounts being preloaded. definitely.


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## MugsGame (24 Jul 2006)

> the one thing to remember though is that if you lose a card which is in credit, that such credit ( or preloaded amount) is NOT covered by the reporting of the loss of the card, only when the card is in debit are the cc providers liable.



Says who? See my earlier post. I agree it's a potential risk. I expect for small amounts the bank would cover it without question, or they would lose my custom. For larger amounts, I'd exhaust all regulatory and legal avenues available to me. I really can't see a court ruling in favour of a large bank if 1) I could prove they acted on fradulent instructions, 2) I reported the fraud in a reasonable time, and 3) the terms and conditions don't even mention this situation. Please prove me wrong.


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## bond-007 (25 Jul 2006)

The banks would have very deep pockets and if they lost they would simply keep appealing until they got to the supreme court.  

I doubt that any normal person would have the funds to fight a bank all the way to the end of the line. The bank would have a vested interest in making sure you loose your case as the precedent would potentialy cost them millions.


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## fobs (26 Jul 2006)

> I doubt that any normal person would have the funds to fight a bank all the way to the end of the line. The bank would have a vested interest in making sure you loose your case as the precedent would potentialy cost them millions.


 
The Banks I would imagine would prefer to pay the money owed if it can be proved that it was stolen or used fraudulently as what Bank needs the adverse publicity of going to court against a customer?
Has anyone ever had this situation happen to them and what was the outcome. 
If it is not in the terms & conditions of the card and the provider allows you to preload the card I can only imagine they have to pay you back or include it in the T&C's!


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## Deisce (31 Aug 2006)

ll


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## ClubMan (31 Aug 2006)

cuchulainn said:


> holidays or othwise I preload my card every so often . the one thing to remember though is that if you lose a card which is in credit, that such credit ( or preloaded amount) is NOT covered by the reporting of the loss of the card, only when the card is in debit are the cc providers liable. so if you lose a card on holidays, and the card is used to purchase xxxxx, then you lose any money you had in credit on that card. I agree with the poster who says that most people wouldn't spend €13,000 on holidays so I would be suspicious of such amounts being preloaded. definitely.


The terms and conditions of my _PTSB VISA _card have nothing at all about such limited liability on the part of the bank. Maybe this applies to some card agreements. I don't think that it necessarily applies to all though.


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## mjbo (2 Sep 2006)

*Re: Holiday Money Tips*



Ron Burgundy said:


> I recently moved to bank of ireland and i notice on the banking 365 you can set up payments or transfers in advance so maybe that the way to go for me.


 
Came across this recently and used it very easily to transfer funds so that my CC was not carrying a large preloaded amount.


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## wonderlust (15 Feb 2010)

was speaking with somebody in Bank of Ireland Credit Card department about 6 months ago and they assured me that they had recently double-checked this with their Fraud department and in terms of being covered for fraud it is irrelevant if the card is preloaded with cash or not, you are covered.


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## Daddy (25 Feb 2010)

So much for topping up your credit card.

I did so recently as going abroad and t/f money in.

When I returned I t/f a lot of the money back out again and was charged nearly 12 euro for the privilege.


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