# Mortgage Arrears Term Extension - but ex won't sign paperwork



## Bear15 (23 Oct 2015)

Hi all, hope im in the right thread
I hope someone could give me any advice in relation to my situation.
Joint Mortgage, realtionship split 6 years ago, other party not paying mortgage since then and refusing to engage with bank moved to abroad.
I have engaged with bank for past 3 years.  Interest only offered to me on my sole salary and my sole signature for these 3 years which i accepted.
Repayments sustained on affordability for past 12 months. Term extension now offered and capitalisation of arrears  (arrears €6,000).
Bank now insisting other party (abroad) signs the term extension agreement to which there is no cooperation.

I have another party lined up to take the mortgage over with me. Bank have told me verbally that credit control have santioned same but await term extension document signed by myself and other party (abroad) or pay the €6000 to bring account back to normal in which case they will proceed with transfer. (original party has agreed to transfer of mortgage through solicitor).
I applied for a loan top up on an existing credit union loan for the arrears balance.  I have been refused this loan as arrears on mortgage.  Any suggestions or alternative options would be appreciated. Feeling backed into corner, cooperated with everything to date with bank, person waiting to take over mortgage and still getting no-where due to non cooperation of other party.
Many thanks in advance


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## Brendan Burgess (23 Oct 2015)

This seems like a pure bureaucratic paperwork issue.  The term extension is in your interest. It's in your ex's interest. It's in the lender's interest.  But there are boxes to be ticked which cannot be ticked. 

You are being responsible. He is not. The only thing you can do is to sign the forms.  Then put your ex's signature on the form. The lender won't care. Your ex won't care. 

Brendan


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## 44brendan (23 Oct 2015)

There are a number of issues in your post that you need to bear in mind.
The fact that you have a joint mortgage with an absentee joint owner. This is of primary concern as literally nothing can be done in respect of either the property or the mortgage without the co-operation of the co-owner.
positively the co-owner appears to be prepared to transfer the property upon payment of €6,000 by you to the bank. Mortgage cannot be transferred. A new mortgage will need to be issued by the bank in the names of the new parties. You have not mentioned whether there is positive or negative equity in the property. If negative equity exists will the new party be prepared to take that over? If positive equity exists why will the existing co-owner agree to relinquish his/her share?
There is no easy fix here. Best option is to sell the property, clear existing mortgage with proceeds/deal with the bank on negative equity issue and move on. Even selling the property is impossible without co-operation of joint owner.


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## 44brendan (23 Oct 2015)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Then put your ex's signature on the form. The lender won't care. Your ex won't care.


Have a re-think on this advice Brendan! By no means do this OP as you would open yourself up to all sorts of trouble! .


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## Bear15 (23 Oct 2015)

thank you for your replies
Brendan i would be nervous about putting the ex's signature on the form for fear of fraud but it has crossed my mind
44Brendan house is 100k in negative equity and my husband is willing to take over everything to get out of this mess.  Also on a tracker which bank have agreed to let us keep.  Selling is not an option for me as i will be liable for the shortfall of at least 100k and also bank wont agree to sale of property as ex will not agree to sell.
my understanding is if i pay the 6k everything will return to normal  and they will not need his signature on the term extension documentation and they will proceed with the transfer but i am very wary of same.  Bank will not issue confirmation in writing.  my husband and I told bank we are prepared to take on the term extension together (to be honest we dont have €6k) but theyre still insisting on the ex's signature even though its on my salary going forward!


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## 44brendan (23 Oct 2015)

Just to clarify position for you again Bear15. This house is in the joint names of both you and the current co-owner. The Bank can legally do nothing without the consent of both parties. They have no choice here. If you and your husband pay down this mortgage you will be initially reducing the negative equity in the property but in time will return the property to positive equity. However your husband will have no ownership interest in this property and you can still do nothing with it without the consent of the co-owner. This type of situation is a legal nightmare and can only be resolved with the consent of both existing owners.


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## Brendan Burgess (23 Oct 2015)

44brendan said:


> Have a re-think on this advice Brendan! By no means do this OP as you would open yourself up to all sorts of trouble! .





44brendan said:


> This type of situation is a legal nightmare and can only be resolved with the consent of both existing owners.



The reality is that there is no other way out of this legal nightmare.  This is not fraud in any real or moral sense. You are not forging a cheque. You are not claiming social welfare falsely. You are not committing someone to something to which they do not want to be committed. 

This has no negative implications for anyone. In fact, it has positive implications for all involved.  I don't recommend forging signatures, but this is a clear case where it's necessary.  Of course, if your ex co-operates and signs it voluntarily that would be better. But if he can't be got, then put his signature on it. 

Your husband should think carefully about whether he wants to sign up for a mortgage in negative equity.  That doesn't seem right to me. You might provide the full figures. 

Brendan


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## Bear15 (23 Oct 2015)

"However your husband will have no ownership interest in this property and you can still do nothing with it without the consent of the co-owner. This type of situation is a legal nightmare and can only be resolved with the consent of both existing owners"

understood 44brendan, the co-owner has sent a confirmation through his solicitor he consents to transfer the property, copy sent to bank, bank have consented verbally they will consider transfer on his application once either the arrears are paid or the term extension document is signed by me and co-owner.  would i be correct in saying that if i could clear the arrears outright and with co-owners consent to transfer it would be full steam ahead or am i still going no where and making matters worse

Brendan Burgess                                                                                                "You are not committing someone to something to which they do not want to be committed"
i agree as Im the one committing it is defintely, a bureaucratic paperwork issue.  The ex wants nothing to do with it.  The ex does not want to pay any monies and hence happy for my husband to take it over.  Husband has thought long and hard, its not right at all however we are desperate to move on with life and the stress its causing to us is almost unbearable.  We are both more than able to cover the mortgage repayments, he dosent own a property and going forward eventually the house may be worth more.  Keeping the tracker is also a bonus.


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## Bronte (25 Oct 2015)

44brendan said:


> Have a re-think on this advice Brendan! By no means do this OP as you would open yourself up to all sorts of trouble! .



My mother used to do this with my fathers cheques all the time for lodging, and other things too.  When I was getting a mortgage one time my OH was away and I needed his signature on something, I think it was a house insurance doc, but but sure now, I signed it anyway, paperwork sorted.  Sometimes you got to think outside the box.

Many posters on here down the years no doubt they finally realised if all that was needed was a signature that was impossible to get managed to get it signed anyway.


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## Bronte (26 Oct 2015)

What people are not realising about this persons problem is that she will solve the problem for the ex partner by taking this course of action.  If that person came back to Ireland the bank could go after him.  They could even go after him now, but the likelyhood is they won't.


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## cremeegg (26 Oct 2015)

Two thoughts on this thread.

The new husband should NOT put his name to the mortgage. This has nothing to do with the relationship between husband and wife, and everything to do with the husband taking on €100k in negative equity, for no reason. He will become €100k poorer overnight for no advantage to anyone except the bank.

If the paperwork goes through the ex will no longer be liable for the mortgage, will he continue to be a joint owner?


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## Brendan Burgess (26 Oct 2015)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Your husband should think carefully about whether he wants to sign up for a mortgage in negative equity. That doesn't seem right to me. You might provide the full figures.





cremeegg said:


> This has nothing to do with the relationship between husband and wife, and everything to do with the husband taking on €100k in negative equity, for no reason.



Hi cremeegg

I don't think you can be so definite in this situation. The answer is not clear. 

Option 1 - continue as is. 
The OP will continue with her full mortgage payments, anyway. In time, she will clear the negative equity and have a valuable asset.  The ex will continue to own half of the house. If she ever wants to move home or sell the house, she will find it very difficult without the ex's cooperation. She may have to buy him out. It's a terrible position to be in. 

Option 2 - Husband  takes over the mortgage 
He takes on a liability for a shortfall of €100k. It is mitigated a fair bit by the fact that it is a tracker mortgage. If he and his wife split up, he will be very sorry that he is fully responsible for the mortgage.  On the other hand, his wife is fully responsible for the full mortgage anyway and is making the full repayments.  At least they will be completely free from the OP's ex. 

The best outcome is that the ex pays an amount in settlement of the negative equity - but that is not going to happen. 

The second best outcome is that the lender allows the OP take over the mortgage on her own. I presume that this won't happen either given that she is in arrears. 

On balance, I think that the husband taking over the mortgage is the best thing to do. But, as I say, it's not at all clear. 

Brendan


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## Sarenco (26 Oct 2015)

Why would the husband want to take on the ex's liability under the loan if he has no interest in the mortgaged property?  Presumably if the ex won't sign a term extension, he won't have any interest in transferring his interest in the property to the husband (or the OP for that matter). 

If the husband takes on the loan obligations of the ex he won't simply be liable for the negative equity - he will be liable for the full amount of the loan - with no interest in the mortgaged property.

I think the OP would be mad to forge her ex's signature.  Besides everything else it's an offence.


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## Brendan Burgess (26 Oct 2015)

Bear15 said:


> I have another party lined up to take the mortgage over with me. Bank have told me verbally that credit control have santioned same but await term extension document signed by myself and other party (abroad) or pay the €6000 to bring account back to normal in which case they will proceed with transfer. (original party has agreed to transfer of mortgage through solicitor).



Bear - I have made an assumption that what is proposed is that your husband takes over both the title deeds and the mortgage and not just the mortgage. 

There is absolutely no reason why your husband should take over the mortgage without taking over ownership of the property.  That would solve nothing and would cause huge problems for your husband. 

Brendan


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## Rebuttal (26 Oct 2015)

How would he take over the title deeds without the ex's  consent ?


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## Brendan Burgess (26 Oct 2015)

Rebuttal said:


> How would he take over the title deeds without the ex's  consent ?





Bear15 said:


> (original party has agreed to transfer of mortgage through solicitor).



Whatever way the original party agreed to transfer the mortgage, I presume that they have agreed to transfer the deeds. 

I can't imagine that the OP is considering taking over the mortgage from their ex, while leaving her ex with ownership of the house. 

Brendan


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## Bear15 (28 Oct 2015)

Thank you for your replies

My husband intends to take over both the title deeds and the mortgage.  The ex has agreed to transfer the deeds. Letter from his solicitor confirming this.
The ex however is not signing the term extension and this is the problem. My husband and I dont have €6000 to cover the arrears balance (which the ex has run up).  The bank are insisting on the term extension document being signed by me and the ex before they will allow husband to take on the mortgage with term extension.

I did try to get a loan  for the €6000 as the bank did tell me if the arrears were paid they would then proceed with the transfer (no need for the term extension document) however i cannot get a loan from my credit union as the ICB has it recorded that i have mortgage arrears!

I feel the bank are being unnecessarily awkward, ive cooperated fully with all my dealings to resolve this situation and have laid a solution on a plate to them. Does anyone know if the banks have any leniency to oversee this part.  My husband and i have clearly told them that we are willing to take over the arrears and would even be willing to pay extra every month to incorporate the arrears into the remaining term of 27 years.

TIA


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## Waver (28 Oct 2015)

Can your husband get a  loan for the 6 thousand as presumably his ICB is not impacted?


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## Bronte (28 Oct 2015)

I don't understand why the ex is being so awkward on this especially if he's willing to sign the transfers.


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## Bronte (28 Oct 2015)

Bear15 said:


> house is 100k in negative equity and my husband is willing to take over everything to get out of this mess.  Also on a tracker which bank have agreed to let us keep.  Selling is not an option for me as i will be liable for the shortfall of at least 100k and also bank wont agree to sale of property as ex will not agree to sell.



Before you proceed Bear 15 can I just point out to you that the bank do not need your ex's or your's consent to sell.  If the mortgage is not being paid they will sell it. 

Is your husband aware of what he is taking on. 

Would you have the bank chase you for the 100K + if you defaulted.  They cannnot take into account your husbands earnings etc. 

I'm also worried that if your ex won't sign the term extension that he might not sign the transfer documents either.


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## Brendan Burgess (28 Oct 2015)

Bronte said:


> Before you proceed Bear 15 can I just point out to you that the bank do not need your ex's or your's consent to sell. If the mortgage is not being paid they will sell it.



Hi Bronte

Where are you getting this from? As it's a family home, they will need to get an order for possession which would take years. 

If the OP consents to have it repossessed, the Registrar will probably not grant the order without the ex's agreement, even though he has not paid anything for years. 

Brendan


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## 44brendan (28 Oct 2015)

It's in the bank's interest to get this sorted, particularly given the circumstances as outlined. Forget the 6k demand. They are getting a great deal if this loan is taken over by your husband. Your ex is also getting a good deal and should grab it with both hands. What is needed here is a professional who can point this out in clear terms to both parties. You are currently being messed around by both the bank and your co-owner which is extremely frustrating for you. bank need to be made aware that if this deal does not go through you are not going to be in a position to continue paying the mortgage as if co-owner does not co-operate you will get no benefit from doing so. have you a good accountant/solicitor who can intercede on your behalf?


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## Bear15 (28 Oct 2015)

Waver : thank you, that is a possibility however we need to have cash to pay solicitor etc if we ever get to the end of it.

Bronte :  thank you, my husbands more than aware, yes it is in the back of our minds if ex won't sign the term extension that he might not sign the transfer documents either.  We will need to have it in place that he signs first.

44Brendan : thank you, that is what i cant get my head around, they are getting a great deal.  I have a solicitor who has instructed the bank in relation to same but they harp on about the term extension.  Co-owner is playing games and has done from day one.  My husband is our only way out of the mess financially.


44brendan said:


> if this deal does not go through you are not going to be in a position to continue paying the mortgage as if co-owner does not co-operate you will get no benefit from doing so. have you a good accountant/solicitor who can intercede on your behalf?


I appreciate this advice.  I have a solicitor who has written to the bank so many times and they are practically ignoring the correspondance and also my solicitor has been dealing directly with a local representative for the bank and this person keeps harping on about term extension or arrears to be paid.  This person in the bank is claiming that the file is on the desk and that it is their job to come to resolution as quick as possible!!!!!

As of today i have now been told that they have made contact with ex and again sent documentation to ex by post as awaiting his signature as he claims he didnt get the documentation.  (He is clearly still messing about)
I was then told that the contents of the conversation could NOT be discussed with me & could only tell me that contact has been made directly by phone and documentation for term extension sent. When i asked if the ex continues to refuse to cooperate with the bank what are they going to do,  the response was "you are joint and severally liable and you will have to keep up the repayments (which i am doing) because if you dont the bank will not like it, it dosent look good for you,  The only other thing you can do is rent the property"

i told this person 1) it is a tracker mortgage and i cant rent (reply "you might have to")
                         2) this house is my family home which i have paid for and i have done nothing but engage with the bank and do what theyve asked to date. I have given a solution to which they will not proceed with until the term extension signed or arrears are paid. This person then replied well we will have to see will the documentation be signed,  we really need his signature as we cannot proceed unless he signs it!

I feel at this stage the ex and the Bank are as bad as each other :/


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## Bronte (28 Oct 2015)

You are really in a tight spot.  This new info is so important.  You must be so stressed.  Can you please do something else, give us the figures, roughly, also salaries, general type of employment,  need to figure out if this NE is worth walking away from and starting again.

For example could you and your hubby, could he get a mortgage on a new property etc.


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## Brendan Burgess (28 Oct 2015)

Bear15 said:


> I feel at this stage the ex and the Bank are as bad as each other :/



The bank is probably operating under Central Bank guidelines or some other contractual terms. They are not trying to be difficult. They are forced to be difficult. Your ex is choosing to be difficult. 

If you continue to meet the repayments, there isn't anything which the bank can do. They won't want to do anything if the mortgage is being paid in full.

You will end up after a few years having paid down the mortgage and your ex could reappear at any time and move into the house as he is still a joint owner of it.

Brendan


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## Bear15 (29 Oct 2015)

Bronte said:


> need to figure out if this NE is worth walking away from and starting again.
> 
> For example could you and your hubby, could he get a mortgage on a new property etc.


 
My husband is in a position to get a mortgage himself. We have thought of this option, the whole situation is all so stressfull that we are desperate to resolve it.  We want to protect our future also financially.  We just feel this is the only way out in that my husband takes over the whole thing.  We are both in good jobs with good salaries and can afford a decent mortgage together.

If my husband buys a house on his own he would be limited to the amount of mortgage available to him.  We really want to get a mortgage together.  Also the fact that we dont want to get into debt by having a second property/mortgage at present until we can resolve this issue first.

If he takes over the property with me, we keep the tracker, wait for a few years and hopefully house prices will rise we be able to sell and move on.  Where we live a present is suitable for commute and the mortgage repayment we currently pay is equivalant to what we would rent for.    In saying that if i could get rid of this property and free ourselves we would. (again the bank may not let us sell, if we did sell i would have the lump sum of approx €100,000 negative equity on my back as the ex is out of jurisdiction and the bank will still be requiring me to repay all.  Id prefer to own the property with €100,000 negative equity on it than to have no property and owe €100,000 regardless.



Brendan Burgess said:


> If you continue to meet the repayments, there isn't anything which the bank can do. They won't want to do anything if the mortgage is being paid in full.
> 
> You will end up after a few years having paid down the mortgage and your ex could reappear at any time and move into the house as he is still a joint owner of it.
> 
> Brendan


 
This is my fear Brendan about paying down the mortgage.  Then again where do i turn if i stop the repayments.

The ex is the one being difficult and causing this situation.  The bank know i can pay the mortgage so i am caught. The bank will come after me regardless as im living and working in the country "joint & severally liable"


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## 44brendan (29 Oct 2015)

Hi again Bear 15. In terms of Brendan B's comment that the Bank are not being obstructive I would tend to disagree with this as they should have no pre-conditions on the property being transferred into new joint names. Again I would point out that if this does not progress you must consider alternative options to maintaining the mortgage for the reasons already highlighted in earlier posts. The difficulty you now have is that you have no direct contact with the co-owner and the perception is that he is not prepared to play ball with the bank/yourself for whatever reasons!! I have dealt with a case very similar to yours and have an agreement in place fro a voluntary sale of the house plus a 20K settlement figure on negative equity of €100k. Deals can be done provided that you have the right advice. You need an experienced negotiator on your case. There are posters on this site such as Jim Stafford who may be able to either assist you directly on point you in the right direction.


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## Bear15 (29 Oct 2015)

44brendan said:


> Deals can be done provided that you have the right advice. You need an experienced negotiator on your case. There are posters on this site such as Jim Stafford who may be able to either assist you directly on point you in the right direction.


 
thank you 44brendan, i have no guarantee from the bank at all, they wont give it to my solicitor in writing in relation to my husband taking over mortgage it is only verbal so we are nervous.
I do have a contact number for the co-owner that i can ring however due to advice of my solicitor i have been told to not contact co-owner directly. (solicitor engaged due to co-owners previous behaviour). 
With regard to the similar case you are dealing with the settlement figure on negative equity can i ask has this persons credit been affected?  (my husband and i dont want to end up in financial difficutly in the future). This scenario sounds like a dream come true to me if it was an option for me Could you send me a link on how to contact Jim Stafford.

Many thanks


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## TLO (29 Oct 2015)

Bear15, I understand Jim Stafford's website to be www.frielstafford.ie ..


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## Brendan Burgess (29 Oct 2015)

44brendan said:


> I have dealt with a case very similar to yours and have an agreement in place fro a voluntary sale of the house plus a 20K settlement figure on negative equity of €100k. Deals can be done provided that you have the right advice. You need an experienced negotiator on your case.



With respect 44b, I think you are giving Bear false hope here. She can clearly afford the mortgage. Why would the bank do a deal? 

Bear, which lender is it? There is some, albeit remote, possibility that one of the lenders leaving the Irish market might do such a deal, but if you are with one of the main lenders it's highly unlikely that you will get such a deal. 

Brendan


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## Bear15 (30 Oct 2015)

[QUOTE="Brendan Burgess, post: 1450230, member: 1"

Bear, which lender is it? There is some, albeit remote, possibility that one of the lenders leaving the Irish market might do such a deal, but if you are with one of the main lenders it's highly unlikely that you will get such a deal.

Brendan[/QUOTE]

Hi Brendan, im with a main lender Bank Of Ireland


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## TLO (30 Oct 2015)

I've been thinking about Bear15's situation all day.  Can't get it out of my head.  Read the thread about 5 times.  The €6,000 arrears could be dealt with by unilaterally paying BOI an extra €166 per month over 36 months.  The real problem here is the ex.  Can't be trusted.  I'm wondering would it be possible for a good family law solicitor to apply to the court for a "Property Adjustment Order" that transfers the ex's beneficial interest in the property to Bear15 herself. Leave her husband out of it. The beneficial interest is probably valued at zero because of the negative equity.  The ex has made no contribution in over six years, if ever.  The ex has also emigrated.  If the Judge agrees to make the order, and it appears that the ex will consent to it, isn't that job done?  Without reference to BOI?  

In time, Bear15 could move the property into both names.  And continue to pay down the mortgage safe in the knowledge that the ex can't decide to move in at some point in the future.


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## Bear15 (2 Nov 2015)

Thank you TLO

Id prefer to leave my husband out of if i could because the ex cannot be trusted at all. I will look into the Property Adjustment Order, i will have to go back to my solicitor.

One thing that crossed my mind is do the bank consider a permanent rental income on a mortgage application? (ie rent from my husband)

The bank already told me i wouldnt qualify for a mortgage on my own last year. Rental income was never taken into account on the application (the application was an over the phone application on guide figures). This is how the affordability came about for 1 year with a view to term extension which is where i am at now.   It is Frustrating considering the amount they want me to pay on the term extension is based on my sole salary,  €100 less per month than the actual mortgage!

I am very grateful for your replies
Many thanks
B


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## Bear15 (10 Jan 2016)

Just back with an update.  co-owner signed paper work last week however the document has expired

1. Bank have held out for this signature for 4 months (in the mean time hounded me with letters).
2. They say they may still be able to use his signature.
3. I asked can i make a new mortgage application to take over the mortgage myself as my wages have changed and loans decreased etc i was told on my salary figure alone i would not qualify under the central banks terms. (totally dismissed without going through any figures)
4. I asked can i use a permanent rental income from my husband on the application - i was told no as it is the family home!
5. I was told the sustainable amount i am paying on the mortgage is now not enough as the mortgage is continuing into arrears because the document was not signed in time! the mortgage repayments have reverted back to the originial repayment €100 more (it is in my interest to get my husband to make up the difference!)
7. I was told that the only options i have available to me is the *(a)* term extension or pay the arrears an revert back to full repayments even though they told me under the guidelines i cant afford the mortgage on my salary. *(b)* Pay the arrears and opt for a trade down mortgage with my husband!
8. I was told until the arrears are cleared or term extension document signed the matter cannot be progressed.

*just to note :* The co-owner was back in the country, had contacted the bank to arrange a meeting in person.  The co-owner rang and was told by another person in the office no need to call in just send back in the term extension document. _(it had already expired)_

I passed this information back to the representative dealing with the case that this had happened, i was told that this was right, that there was no need for the co-owner to attend he just needed to send away the document.
I told of how disappointed i am with this as theyve tried for so long to get a meeting with the co-owner.  The co-owner has since left the country again, the reply was "your joking me, well with no cooperation we are caught, we really need to get a signed authority from the co-owner to nominate a person to deal with his affairs in his absence! 
(Is it just me or is this just unacceptable?)

i am just worn out.....


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## Brendan Burgess (11 Jan 2016)

I had a look at this again and note that you have provided no numbers.  Can you give the following information 

Value of property
Balance outstanding on the mortgage 
Interest rate as in ECB + 
Term remaining. 
Monthly repayment due
How much you are actually paying. 
Your salary or income 

BoI is subject to Central Bank guidelines, Data Protection and a host of other regulations. They can't simply do what is practical if they are not complying with these guidelines.  And from the bank's point of view, the mortgage is being paid, so they don't have any incentive to break the law to facilitate you. 

All you want is a term extension. To get it, you need the signature of your ex. He doesn't need to meet the bank. He just needs to sign the paperwork. Or, put it another way, the bank simply needs to get the document with his signature on it.


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## Bear15 (12 Jan 2016)

thanks Brendan, signature has been accepted so we are now on the road to resolution. 
Many thanks to everyone for all the replies. 

This thread really kept me positive at times that i was very low.
I am very thankful.


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