# Track and trace breakdown?



## Brendan Burgess (22 Oct 2020)

Back in early March a guy who was at a meeting which I was at, later notified the rest of us that he had been tested positive. 

That seemed obvious to me. 

If I get confirmed with Covid, I will let my close contacts know.  And I will probably go a bit beyond my close contacts too. 

What am I missing? I have heard politicians saying that it's unreasonable to ask people who have been confirmed positive to notify their close contacts.  Why is that unreasonable? 

Brendan


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## odyssey06 (22 Oct 2020)

I think there is a script that the tracers follow, to establish which of your contacts really need to get tested.
The issue with a 'lay' person notifying all the contacts is the demand it places on testing & local GPs.
If you notify your contacts I think they then have to go through local GP to arrange testing.

Also, could be wrong on this, I think the tracers played a role in setting up the tests for the contacts.


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## odyssey06 (22 Oct 2020)

ps another side point on the breakdown of tracing is that it makes our current test figures a little unreliable in terms of week on week comparison


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## joer (22 Oct 2020)

I think it is a great idea to get people to contact their close contacts. They will have a better chance of not missing anyone. From what I hear it can take a week for the HSE to contact people.


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## Brendan Burgess (22 Oct 2020)

Hi Odyssey

After my friend got Covid, I rang my doctor. 

He went through things with me and reckoned I should have a test.  So he put me into the system. 

I self-isolated.

Then the criteria were changed and I was told I would not have a test. 

That didn't put a huge burden on the doctor or the system.

Brendan


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## MaxGordon (22 Oct 2020)

Where are the rules regarding who is tracked and traced set out?

A month ago, a close contact of mine got Covid - I'd like to understand why I was not tracked and traced? How do we know the success of contact tracing? What does the data say? What percentage of contacts have, like me, not been contacted?


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## odyssey06 (22 Oct 2020)

Brendan Burgess said:


> He went through things with me and reckoned I should have a test.  So he put me into the system.
> I self-isolated.
> Then the criteria were changed and I was told I would not have a test.
> That didn't put a huge burden on the doctor or the system.
> Brendan



As an isolated case, not a great burden. Multiply it by 1000 people by all their contacts and it is a load.
They changed the criteria at the peak of first wave because the system was overloaded with more people (many of whom should have been tested) than they could handle.


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## odyssey06 (22 Oct 2020)

MaxGordon said:


> Where are the rules regarding who is tracked and traced set out?
> A month ago, a close contact of mine got Covid - I'd like to understand why I was not tracked and traced? How do we know the success of contact tracing? What does the data say? What percentage of contacts have, like me, not been contacted?



This is the HSE information on close v casual contacts.

I understand there's a lot of concerns re: schools, if the kids were wearing masks they are not being considered as close contacts even if they were in the same class for hours.
As someone who is pro-mask, I think that is presuming too much about their capabilities.
They are not effective PPE where you are spending hours in same room as an infected person.









						If you are a close contact of COVID-19
					

Find out what you need to do if you're a close contact of a person that tests positive for COVID-19 (coronavirus).




					www2.hse.ie


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## joer (22 Oct 2020)

But surely if they contact their doctor could he or she not just give them a ref number to go to a test centre.  That would take pressure off them


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## MaxGordon (22 Oct 2020)

Thanks odyssey06,

Interestingly, I have the app and didn't hear anything from either official channels?

What's the data saying here?


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## odyssey06 (22 Oct 2020)

MaxGordon said:


> Thanks odyssey06,
> Interestingly, I have the app and didn't hear anything from either official channels?
> What's the data saying here?



I haven't seen stats on % of followups. It is very strange you didn't receive a followup through either channel, as it predates the breakdown of the tracing. In your shoes I would like to know whether I had it or not.


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## MaxGordon (22 Oct 2020)

Of course, I got tested. I needed to know.

My only point here is to understand how leaky the system is.

Maybe my situation is the exception, maybe not - who knows?


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## demoivre (22 Oct 2020)

MaxGordon said:


> Of course, I got tested. I needed to know.



Were you asymptomatic and did a GP organize your test?


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## MaxGordon (22 Oct 2020)

I had mild symptoms and a GP organised my test.

The central point regarding the extent of leaks remains....


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## Purple (22 Oct 2020)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Hi Odyssey
> 
> After my friend got Covid, I rang my doctor.
> 
> ...


I love the talk about placing a massive burden on the GP.
You call your GP, they get €40 for taking the call. If you are not symptomatic they got €40 for 3 minutes on the phone. If you are then they got €40 for 3 minutes on the phone and then someone who get €16-20 an hour spending 10 minutes on the phone. The input from the GP is still negligible.


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## odyssey06 (22 Oct 2020)

Purple said:


> I love the talk about placing a massive burden on the GP.
> You call your GP, they get €40 for taking the call. If you are not symptomatic they got €40 for 3 minutes on the phone. If you are then they got €40 for 3 minutes on the phone and then someone who get €16-20 an hour spending 10 minutes on the phone. The input from the GP is still negligible.



I'd love to know where you are in Ireland that has GPs with lots of time on their hands.
A couple of calls = an appointment they could have had with another patient, something which only they can do.
GPs in my area are flat out as it is.
Dealing with e.g. a GAA club cluster would be a burden that would impact their ability to deal with other patients and best handled by dedicated contract tracers yes.


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## Purple (22 Oct 2020)

odyssey06 said:


> I'd love to know where you are in Ireland that has GPs with lots of time on their hands.
> A couple of calls = an appointment they could have had with another patient, something which only they can do.
> GPs in my area are flat out as it is.
> Dealing with e.g. a GAA club cluster would be a burden that would impact their ability to deal with other patients and best handled by dedicated contract tracers yes.


Maybe they should work a 39 hour week?
See Section 2 of this report which highlights the downright lies that the ICGP tells about working hours and workload. The notion that GP's are all working 50-60 hours a week and are at breaking point is pure fantasy. A GP can hire any number of locum doctors to work for them. Those doctors can see medical card and private patients. You can have a proctologist looking down your neck or a ENT doctor looking up your backside.
Don't get me wrong, most GP's are great and do a good job. Many work long hours and are doing their best to provide a good service. In that they are like everyone else.


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## joer (22 Oct 2020)

If people kept a diary with their contact list it might help everyone...


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## Leo (22 Oct 2020)

joer said:


> If people kept a diary with their contact list it might help everyone...



How many people are you meeting in close contact situations that you can't remember?


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## joer (22 Oct 2020)

Not that many but if there is a week or two week delay trying to remember ,when I have to remember, might pose a problem for some people even me.


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## Purple (22 Oct 2020)

joer said:


> Not that many but if there is a week or two week delay trying to remember ,when I have to remember, might pose a problem for some people even me.


The downside of being popular...


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## joer (22 Oct 2020)

Now that golf is gone my fan club is in major trouble..


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## Clamball (23 Oct 2020)

Once you have been deemed a close contact you have to self isolate for 2 weeks no matter if you test negative or not.  Being considered a close contact is a tough call.  So no wonder the HSE likes to decide.  Asking those who are Covid + to let their close contacts know this must be terrible if they are feeling unwell themselves or are placing an unwelcome burden on a contact etc.  

My friends 19 yr old contracted Covid about 3 weeks ago.  So she was confined to her bedroom, but the rest of the family, mother, father, siblings all had to self isolate for 2 weeks from date of result.  The kid with Covid only had to self isolate for 10 days post test, so she was free from her bedroom, and free to go back to college, 4 days before the rest of her family, who missed work, school, university etc.  It was really hard for them, their work places were not appreciative or sympathetic about the news.  They all had to be tested twice and luckily none came down with it.


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## Purple (23 Oct 2020)

Clamball said:


> It was really hard for them, their work places were not appreciative or sympathetic about the news. They all had to be tested twice and luckily none came down with it.


I don't get that from employers. It's better to have someone out for 2 weeks than risk the whole place being closed down.


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## Clamball (23 Oct 2020)

I think many employers are not very happy at all to have staff out and are perhaps helping to spread the virus.

It has just come home to roost with us.  My 21 yr old has a friend who works part time in a retail chain setting.  Her co-worker came to work ill and subsequently tested positive.  My 21yr old‘a friend was very concerned but the company told the co-worker not to list any of her co-workers as close contacts as they were all wearing masks.  My 21 yr’s old friend was so concerned she organised for a private test and has been found positive this evening.  I would say that employer has a lot to answer for, thinking that wearing a mask is the first line of defence and then putting a young employee under pressure not to list co-workers as close contacts.


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## Leo (27 Oct 2020)

Clamball said:


> My 21yr old‘a friend was very concerned but the company told the co-worker not to list any of her co-workers as close contacts as they were all wearing masks.



That employer could potentially be held liable for any other staff contracting the virus. Instructing a staff member to lie to the authorities is a failure in their duty of care to their staff.


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## Purple (27 Oct 2020)

Leo said:


> That employer could potentially be held liable for any other staff contracting the virus. Instructing a staff member to lie to the authorities is a failure in their duty of care to their staff.


It would be good to have a mechanism to make the employer criminally liable in such a circumstance.


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## Leo (27 Oct 2020)

Purple said:


> It would be good to have a mechanism to make the employer criminally liable in such a circumstance.



Yeah, the Attorney General suggested earlier in the year that people hosting groups in their homes could be liable is someone visiting their home contracted it. Hard to imagine similar wouldn't apply in a workplace where it might be seen as a more serious matter given the requirements for employers to provide a safe working environment.


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## Purple (27 Oct 2020)

Leo said:


> Yeah, the Attorney General suggested earlier in the year that people hosting groups in their homes could be liable is someone visiting their home contracted it. Hard to imagine similar wouldn't apply in a workplace where it might be seen as a more serious matter given the requirements for employers to provide a safe working environment.


Seems crazy that any employer could be that stupid.


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## Leo (27 Oct 2020)

Purple said:


> Seems crazy that any employer could be that stupid.



Employers are people too! But yes, agreed! Huge risk to take.


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