# Gayness 101 - a lighter look at our equally cherised children



## Betsy Og (24 May 2015)

Now that the serious business is out of the way, I confess myself to be pretty much totally ignorant of all aspects of gay life in Ireland today. So I can only go on what gets presented through the media/popular culture. 

So what is your typical bemused country yokel, of which I am one, to make of stuff like the following  - now before this kicks off this is meant to be light & fun, & I know you cant generalise about a diverse group of people & most gay people are indistinguishable in all respects from everyone else & some of this stuff has probably been used in homophobia & & & (hopefully that's enough clarifications, qualifications & what not so we can all learn something ), 

so again what are the yokels among us meant to make of:

Mincing - which I take it an unusual style of walking - I know this from watching Alan Carr. What up with that?
Drag Acts - the whole Rory O'Neill/panty bliss thing - is it just for the craic?, does he want to be a woman?, is the drag act the exclusive preserve of gay men (I cant recall seeing a drag act of woman being man).
Camp/campness - is this a word for 'theatrically gay' appearing men or situations, or if not then what is the sense of it?
Styles of speaking - probably the same question as the camp one - so why, in many films, do the gay character(s) speak in such a distinguishable manner - is this just for film or how widespread is this phenomenon.
Apparent separate "roles" in lesbian relationships - I wont use the terms as I gather they can be offensive, but you know what I mean. Again, is this occasional, the rule, only for films watched by mass audiences.

Anyways, you can see my level of toe curling cringe inducing ignorance, and without embarassing myself further, can anyone ...errr..."set me straight" on these and other such related matters. There's definitely a book on this topic, with an Irish flavour, a stocking filler for suspected No voters and Yes voters like myself who didnt need to know anything beyond equality for all/cherish all our children equally.


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## Vanilla (24 May 2015)

I understand you mean no offence, but sure, 'the gays' are just people, like you and me.


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## Latrade (25 May 2015)

Betsy Og said:


> Styles of speaking - probably the same question as the camp one - so why, in many films, do the gay character(s) speak in such a distinguishable manner - is this just for film or how widespread is this phenomenon.


 
You've hit on a good one with this. Unfortunately, the main goto in films and TV is for the gay character to be over the top comic relief. The writers have progressed a bit as it wasn't too long ago that a gay character was comic relief when the only "comedic" thing portrayed was their sexuality, they actually now do gay characters with story archs and character development. Like us heterosexuals, homosexuals come in all shapes sizes, styles, etc most of what is seen as "gayness" is exaggerated stereotype.

For balance, here's one of my favourite musicians, Bob Mould, on Letterman playing so loud that dust is shaken from the set:

http://www.stereogum.com/1735510/watch-bob-mould-literally-bring-down-the-house-on-letterman/video/

Bob, also gay, pretty much set the seen for 80's punk rock (leading to Nirvana) with Husker Du and all without a mince or lisp in sight.


This whole reply was just an excuse for me to post that vid.


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## Sol28 (26 May 2015)

There's many many ways to answer this. But without getting stand-offish, there are so many different types of gay and lesbian personas out there. As there are the straight personas - from the soccer yob, to the rugby D4 head, the working class howrya to the rural farmer eejit. And you know what, some of those straight personas also have gay men and women in them.

But to answer some specific questions - there are also drag kings - women dressed as men. And not all drag is gay. Panto Dames are generally straight. Shakespearean Theatre generally had men playing women characters as women were not allowed in theatre. Drag Artists have also been some of the original soldiers in the fight for equality. The stonewall riots in New York was lead by drag queens. Those riots are considered the birth of LGBT fight for acceptance. Panti Bliss has been one of the most respected members of the Yes Equality movement.

Camp is not solely the preserve of gay men. David Walliams is one of the campest men in Britain, Amanda Holden is not far behind in campness stakes, Bruce Forsythe could be added to that list. Campness (like drag) sometimes is used as a defence against homophobic abuse growing up (which anyone over the age of 30 suffered through in school). It can be a way of over exaggerating as a way of fighting back. But there are many many reasons for it. But because Camp and Drag are more obvious - it seems that every gay person must be one or the other.

Also - without being crude - it pays to advertise. As a guy who always has to come out (no one guesses I am gay) - I get tired of it. The presumption is straightness - in every new situation I ultimately have to come out. Which is damn tiring. The only place where I could meet a potential partner is in one of the gay bars - or more increasingly one of the gay sports/community groups. Despite the referendum result - I would dare not chat up a guy in a straight bar, I risk an insult - if not a physical attack. A small benefit of the Pre-Referendum movement was the wearing of the Yes Badge - Not many straight men (it seemed - i may be wrong) wore the badge (many straight women did). It was nice to be recognised by people on the street. I'll kinda miss wearing the badge!


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## Sol28 (26 May 2015)

Betsy Og said:


> Now that the serious business is out of the way, I confess myself to be pretty much totally ignorant of all aspects of gay life in Ireland today. So I can only go on what gets presented through the media/popular culture.



The other major impact of the referendum - is that the straight community actually have tried more and more to educate themselves and to break down stereotypes of LGBT life. The only way to get to know someone is to talk to them - and not to be scared of asking a question. Its just about how to frame the question without creating an insult.


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## Thirsty (27 May 2015)

> I would dare not chat up a guy in a straight bar, I risk an insult - if not a physical attack.


I can see what you say is absolutely true... but it's still the saddest thing I've seen in a long time.  All these 'facebook' heroes patting themselves on the back as if they were personally responsible for the outcome and yet the reality is completely different...we still have a long way to go.


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## Sol28 (27 May 2015)

Thirsty said:


> I can see what you say is absolutely true... but it's still the saddest thing I've seen in a long time.  All these 'facebook' heroes patting themselves on the back as if they were personally responsible for the outcome and yet the reality is completely different...we still have a long way to go.



We have bit of a way to go alright - however - I now would openly be on a date with a guy in a straight bar and not worry too much about it. As long as there wasn't too much of a PDA (Public Display of Affection). Legislation is a driver of social change - but attitudes take a long time to mature.

On a slightly different note - I was away in rural Achill Easter Saturday with a group of my outdoor sports friends. We were in the only bar in the village - at one stage 2 of the lads got up to dance to the country and western singer - a bit of a waltz type dance. To be fair the locals - while they initially looked - didnt really bat an eye. By the end of the night - every one of them was wearing a Yes Equality badge - including the old one armed man at the bar.

And many of them came up to us saying; "I have a cousin who...", "My neighbour is...", "My son is..."

Ireland is changing - slowly - but lots of change has happened - and a lot more is underway!


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## Purple (27 May 2015)

Sol28, your post about Achill reminds me of that film about the gay rights group who supported the miners during the strike in the 80's. Great movie; funny, uplifting and very sad.


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## Betsy Og (27 May 2015)

As regards straight men in regular pubs etc., I'd imagine attitudes are softening a little. But I do think its a scenario where education would help a lot - I'd say a lot of straight people (the like of myself) have no clue whatsoever - ignorance generally tends to breed fear (now I wouldnt put myself in that category), but you know what I mean. I hope the gay community dont retreat into the mist, the general population have extended the hand of friendship, so maybe time for the gay community to engage with the natives - how that is achieved on a practical level I dont know - while I'm all for gay pride parades etc, it probably wont command much widespread interest - maybe more of the Donal Og type documentaries.


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## Sol28 (27 May 2015)

Purple said:


> that film about the gay rights group who supported the miners during the strike in the 80's


Its called Pride. I havent seen it myself. Supposed to be a good film - but if you look at the Posters for the film when released in America - All references to gayness have been airbrushed off!! 



Betsy Og said:


> the general population have extended the hand of friendship, so maybe time for the gay community to engage with the natives



I mentioned above the Outdoor sports group that I am involved in. A primarily LGBT based (plus straight friends) sports group. We have covered the country - we have partaken in many many types of sports, we have socialised in straight bars and talked to local communities. We have broken down so many of the stereotypes by just going out there and living.

Here's a link to an article that was written by one of our straight members who just turned up and joined us. Its published on the mainstream Outdoor Sports magazine for Ireland - Outsider.

[broken link removed]


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## Marion (27 May 2015)

"But I do think its a scenario where education would help a lot - I'd say a lot of straight people(the like of myself) have no cluewhatsoever - ignorance generallytends to breedfear (now I wouldnt put myself in that category), but you knowwhat I mean. I hope the gaycommunity dont retreat into the mist,"

I recently did some work in a school with 2 transgender children who were very much part of the school community. They were identified by their chosen as opposed to given names and nobody treated them as being in any way different.

Gay is So passé 

Marion


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## Sol28 (28 May 2015)

Marion said:


> I recently did some work in a school with 2 transgender children who were very much part of the school community. They were identified by their chosen as opposed to given names and nobody treated them as being in any way different.



In my nieces class theres one girl in 1st year and 2 boys in 2nd year in Secondary school who are out - I think that's amazing. They will grow through their teenage years developing normally, they will also normalise inherent differences in sexuality amongst their peers. 

The biggest success of the Yes campaign was to allow the straight community to meet and have conversations with LGBT people. To realise that LGBT people are every bit as diverse as their straight counterparts. To discover that neighbours and colleagues were LGBT.


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## Gerry Canning (14 Jul 2015)

Sol28.

I (half) disagree .
The success of the YES campaign will be when we stop using  LGBT or STRAIGHT verbiage.

ie. People are People ,putting tags on them means they are different.

Me being a (grump) ! hate giving anyone a label..
So lets stop the PRIDE , PRIDE is now so  yesterday.? lets just be people. 
I like Marions post.
PS . I see the legislation on marriage is slowed.


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## Sol28 (15 Jul 2015)

Gerry Canning said:


> The success of the YES campaign will be when we stop using  LGBT or STRAIGHT verbiage.
> ie. People are People ,putting tags on them means they are different.
> 
> So lets stop the PRIDE , PRIDE is now so  yesterday.? lets just be people.



Gerry,

I actually agree with you, (mostly!)

The ultimate success is when no one has to come out - when they just talk about their boyfriend and girlfriend and no one notices the gender of the couple. Legislation is one way of driving this - and thankfully we are pretty much set up that way. Culturally we are not. To walk down a street hand in hand with a same sex partner still to this day draws unwarranted attention - even if its just a glance. And thats just in the city. Its a hell of a lot better - the vote has given people a mandate to hold their head up high.

So while people still feel shameful for being who they are - Pride is still needed to promote an acceptance of diversity, to celebrate our successes and to remember where people do not have the same freedoms. (see this video about how acceptable it is to hold hands with a same sex partner in Russia - check out the final scene!).

Ireland has been very progressive, We have enabled Transgender rights recently - the equality bill has just passed into the Seanad that will remove section 37. And now we are awaiting the legislation to enable same sex marriage. This is a great little country!


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## cremeegg (7 Sep 2015)

Sol28 said:


> ....I was away in *rural Achill *Easter Saturday with a group of my outdoor sports friends. We were in the only bar in the village - at one stage 2 of the lads got up to dance to the country and western singer - a bit of a waltz type dance. To be fair the locals - while they initially looked - didnt really bat an eye. By the end of the night - every one of them was wearing a Yes Equality badge - including the old one armed man at the bar.






Sol28 said:


> ...To walk down a street hand in hand with a same sex partner still to this day draws unwarranted attention - even if its just a glance.* And thats just in the city.*...



Your posts to this thread are well worth reading, but you don't really feel comfortable with Culchies do you?


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## Leper (8 Sep 2015)

I don't know Sol other than to read his posts here leading up to the Same Sex Marriage Referendum.  Homophobia didn't just cease to exist after the referendum, you know! 

Some homosexual people I know are openly "gay" in cities, but when they return to their "non" city addresses some return to the "closet" for the weekend. Homophobia like many other shortcomings in Ireland will take at least a generation to abate.  Ireland was always a haven of squinting windows, rumours, gossip etc. It didn't change on a Yes vote.


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## Gerry Canning (8 Sep 2015)

Leper,

Inclined to disagree,
Having been around for 6 decades and having grown up in (squinting) windows era, there is absolutely no doubt that the vast bulk of Homophobia has been washed away.
Doubtless there are still some idiots left but few enough..


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## Sol28 (9 Sep 2015)

cremeegg said:


> but you don't really feel comfortable with Culchies do you?



I am a culchie!!  and while I love living in the city - I also really enjoy escaping it too! 
Oh and I dont know how else you would describe Dugort in Achill as anything but Rural. Its hardly a modern metropolis! However the people there have been very welcoming to us over the years.



Leper said:


> Some homosexual people I know are openly "gay" in cities, but when they return to their "non" city addresses some return to the "closet" for the weekend.



I was one of those people! Still am to some extent - However I went home to Vote on the day and for the first time I walked down my main street with my head held high and less 'shame'. When I saw the high turnout in my town and the high yes percentage (both ~70%) - I was shocked - but oh so pleased. Yet still - when I go down home - there's still the unspoken policy of 'Dont ask - Dont tell!'. Even though now I am out to all my family (I only had the chat with my dad the week before the vote - and only just got him to abstain rather than Vote no. A Yes vote would have been step too far.)



Gerry Canning said:


> Doubtless there are still some idiots left but few enough..


Unfortunately there is still more than 'some' idiots. However - in a lot of circumstances you will get unwarranted attention from just a basic, simple display of affection. I don't mean its vindictive or nasty - but it makes you uncomfortable and in the words of Panti's Noble call speech - I still "Check Myself".

Its getting better, every step we take, small or large makes it better. I see 18-20 year olds who are so comfortable in their own skin that I am excited for their future - and my own aint looking too grim either.


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## Gerry Canning (9 Sep 2015)

Sol,

Of course you would still get {unwarranted attention} , I take this to mean people gawking? .
 Can I  suggest its still as a % much more common to see Boy & Girl as against LGBT couples. and that's part of life.

And therefore Since the % of LGBT is less , it is less usual to witness affection, ergo gawkable ?

I still think I am right ! (few nuff idiots left !)


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## Sol28 (9 Sep 2015)

Gerry Canning said:


> Can I suggest its still as a % much more common to see Boy & Girl as against LGBT couples. and that's part of life.


Totally accept the numbers game. Of course Boy/Girl is more common. And yes, in a lot of cases, its just gawking. And as time goes by there will be less gawking, as has happened with mixed race couples.

However - there is still a need to be aware of time and place for a same-sex PDA. I have known a number of people who have been physically attacked and ended up in hospital because of their sexuality.

However - the more visibility there is, the more common place this will become and the less gawking and comments will occur. I am not stating that all gay couples need to be totally OTT in terms of visibility, but neither should they need to hide their affection for their partner in a public place. No more and no less than any other couple. Our laws now allow that, and society has stated publicly they allow that by the vote. Now its down to the individual to not give a hoot one way or other. Going back to your point from a few posts back, that the day when we don't need to label everyone we will be truly equal.


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## Gerry Canning (11 Sep 2015)

sol28,
 I suggest those who were physically attacked were not attacked because of their sexuality .(that might be the excuse given)
They were attacked, because they are a minority and Thugs since time started  find any (difference/minority) an excuse to be Thugs.

I still contend the {idiots} are getting few + fewer + fewest !


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## Purple (11 Sep 2015)

Sol, if someone told you 20 years ago that you would be having this discussion in 2015, that the debate had moved on to this extent, would you have believed them?
I am very happy that it is now about the minority of people who are bigots and the nuances of how people are received in public.


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## Sol28 (14 Sep 2015)

Purple said:


> Sol, if someone told you 20 years ago that you would be having this discussion in 2015, that the debate had moved on to this extent, would you have believed them?
> I am very happy that it is now about the minority of people who are bigots and the nuances of how people are received in public.



Totally agree. We have moved so far. And while having a vote on equality is so wrong - the results were so right. By having the public voice their support - actually reinforced the progression we have made. Ireland is quiet a progressive country in so many ways - we can be quiet negative about ourselves. But we need to take pause and realise what we have achieved in so many areas.


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## Betsy Og (14 Sep 2015)

Anyone else a bit peeved by the referendum result being hijacked for other causes - thinking Roisin Ingle here. It's not that I dont have some sympathy for the mother, but on balance I think I have more for the child/foetus/....  Some I'm not too impressed with my Yes vote being nailed to another debate - that debate has its own merits, less keep them separate.

p.s. I'm learning more, I've recently added "gender fluid" and even "non-binary" to my vocabulary!


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## Purple (16 Sep 2015)

Betsy Og said:


> Anyone else a bit peeved by the referendum result being hijacked for other causes - thinking Roisin Ingle here. It's not that I dont have some sympathy for the mother, but on balance I think I have more for the child/foetus/....  Some I'm not too impressed with my Yes vote being nailed to another debate - that debate has its own merits, less keep them separate.


I agree completely.

By the way, bisexual doesn't mean some who pays for sex


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## Betsy Og (16 Sep 2015)

My favourite is "trysexual", would try anything 

I have views on paying for sex too, but good God fearing man that I am, I ...errr... "come to the debate with clean hands"


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## cremeegg (17 Sep 2015)

Betsy Og said:


> p.s. I'm learning more, I've recently added "gender fluid" ... to my vocabulary!



Is that something that you need to clean up after?

(sorry for mucking about in a thread that was initially quite serious)


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