# Have Just Bought a Site..... So How Much Is My Self Built Going To Cost?!?!



## Squirms (19 Nov 2010)

Hi everyone!!

I have just yesterday received confirmation that my site is officially SOLD- yippee!!

On the land (it is in Dublin 3) there is a derelict farmhouse with outhouse building and some interesting structures, such as an archway through to an internal courtyard etc etc. We wish to demolish all existing structures and build our house (and 3 others, which are none of my concern!). 

We then plan to build a 4-bed house, approx. 135m2 (with an attic conversion, the m2 of which has not been added to the above estimation). 

We have a few tradesmen in the family- painter & plaster, electrician, man-of-many-trades (!) etc and we intend to do as much of the work ourselves that we can. 

We would hope for a decent enough finish but are realistic. I would like hardwood floors in the hall, for example, but would not mind if they were in no other room... would like top of the line insulation, but would be ok with PVC windows.... etc.

I know there are a number of threads discussing the costs of self builds, but i have found (i may be incorrect, apologies if so) that they are quite dated and are PRE-demise of the economy! 

So, my question is, what kind of money are we talking, per m2??? 
Thank you so much!

L.


----------



## onq (20 Nov 2010)

We developed a price for a three storey house of circa 2,700 sq ft of around €100 per square foot.

This was do-able, with a bit of belt tightening perhaps €85 per square foot could be achieved, but you really need top watch your details, buildability, materials selection, etc.

Significant landscaping driveways boundary walls were excluded this was just the house to a plastered finish internally

This was for a builder making a profit, not one of the sackcloth and ashes brigade who buy into the current "we're all to blame and should ruin what business we have by doing unprofitable work and then go to hell in a handbasket" train of thought.

If you're getting work done for much less than €85 a square foot, you could be taking a risk that the builder will go bust.

You simply cannot persist with unprofitable work - it just runs up a debt that keeps on growing.


ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon                                                 as a defence or support -     in     and    of        itself  -         should       legal            action        be           taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in                                                 Real Life with rights to        inspect     and       issue         reports    on     the                matters    at           hand.


----------



## Troy McClure (20 Nov 2010)

onq said:


> If you're getting work done for much less than €85 a square foot, you could be taking a risk that the builder will go bust.
> 
> .


 
Thats a bit of a sweeping statement. They seem to be able to do it other countries but of course we're different...


----------



## onq (20 Nov 2010)

The sweeping statement is all yours, Doug Virginian(!) 
In India they can build it for perhaps a quarter or less than we can - but the subject site is in Dublin 3.
Compare anything you like in a given country, but don't compare different countries - builders live an work on one country usually.
And if you want to extol the virtues of rushing to the bottom after price - be my guest, you'll get what you pay for.

The price of materials has remained high for a long while.
Many people address the price of labour as a cost saving mechanism, using foreign operatives.
The trouble is, foreign operatives don't always know the necessary building practices for a climate and ground conditions like ours.

Last built work I did I called to site to witness the out-of-town workmen back filling foundation trenches with 6 inch (150mm) lumps of broken block with plaster still on them.
Plaster needs to be separated out, and backfilling is requried to be done with graded hardcore vibrated and consolidated in  6 inch (150mm) layers.
Building with  6 inch (150mm) lumps creates voids that could lead to later settlement and cracking of the slab, or reservoirs of water under the slab, which could lead to frost heave.
Persons who pay bottom of the market prices will not foresee this, nor will problems become evident for some time, but which the bird will have flown the coop.

==================================

As for builders going bust, I'm referring to the kind of story I've heard about anecdotally last year.
Main Contractor asked for up front payment for a 14 week job, did most of it and disappeared on week 9 - gone.
Plus we've had queries on AAM about people buying incomplete houses and certification, that kind of thing.

In my own profession I see people trying to get credit extended to their firms and taking on work that doesn't pay them to do it to keep going.
I know of one firm that offered to do work for free this year to get paid next year, trading on their credit facilities and eating into retained profits.
If their client turns to them and refuses to pay next year, they're gone, perhaps owing millions in personal guarantees.
That's what eventually happens when you're working for less than your break even point- its not worth it.

Better by far is to accept existing market conditions and let the business fold.
Perhaps to step out of the game for a while until sanity returns.
Maybe wait while there is a levelling of prices across the board.
Perhaps diversify into other products, industries or markets.
That way you can preserve your assets for the upswing.

If the cost of living and materials here comes down to whats in India we can build for what they build in India.
Otherwise beware of low quotations, based on the guide I've given above.

You may indeed be lucky and get a bargain from a firm that's looked ahead and trimmed prices to the bone and is sustainable at that level, but beware.
A guy working below his break even point is having to roll over an ever-increasing debt from one job to another and will eventually hit his limit.
The danger is it might happen on *your* job.

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon                                                  as a defence or support  -     in     and    of        itself  -         should       legal             action        be           taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in                                                  Real Life with rights to         inspect     and       issue         reports    on     the                 matters    at           hand.


----------



## Troy McClure (21 Nov 2010)

onq said:


> The sweeping statement is all yours, Doug Virginian(!)
> And if you want to extol the virtues of rushing to the bottom after price - be my guest, you'll get what you pay for.
> 
> Last built work I did I called to site to witness the out-of-town workmen


 
This mantra is still alive and well I see. The industry has a bit to go yet regardless of what people, who have a vestive interest in it, tell us. They like to say it's on the floor. It's not, and is no different than other walks of life. 
It goes nicely with the zenophobic sentiment for 'out-of-towners' as you call them. Alot of these foreign workmen are used to more advanced building technology's then most guys here. Many think we are a decade behind actually.
The old scare tactic of 'they bad - us good' is a bit outdated and people know should better than to believe this carrot. A due diligence should be done on everybody as there are shisters and chancers out there in the building industry in all professions and trades. Most of them are not 'out-of-towners' either...
Pretty much every country between here and India is still cheaper to build than here..


----------



## onq (21 Nov 2010)

I don't trade on mantras.
I told you what I told you from my own personal experience.
These weren't isolated cases either I just didn't want to be labelled as scare-monger.

I've recently seen some remedial work required where other out-of-town workmen did tiling in a bathroom and they've fallen off the wall because of poor preparation and workmanship.
Just because your fantasy of cheap good workman isn't being borne out by my experience, don't go into denial on me.

RE what you say about pricing you were given tight prices to begin with.
The top end of pricing was over €200 Euro a square foot in 2006-2007, so its actually come down a lot since then.

You may want to see prices down through the floor, but that's just you.
Other people realise that every business has to make a profit to stay afloat.
If not, at some point people will go off and work in other fields or in other countries taking their profession or trade with them.

As for Ireland being ten years behind, that is total, utter and complete nonsense.
Irish designers like O'Donnell and Twomey have achieved recognition in both Britain and America.

Irish buildings are in general built to a very high standard and some have achieved standards of excellence on a part with best practice internationally.
For example, the new Bórd Gáis networks building in Finglas is state of the art and will be BREEAM certified when completed, so check your facts before running this country down again.

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon                                                   as a defence or  support  -     in     and    of        itself  -         should        legal             action        be           taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in                                                   Real Life with rights  to         inspect     and       issue         reports    on     the                  matters    at           hand.


----------



## Troy McClure (22 Nov 2010)

The sooner those in the building industry adjust their work practises and overheads then the sooner the floor will be hit. Some builders I know are getting there quicker than others and making profit. They are just not clawing onto the past.
Others (most) are sticking with your mantra sadly and like you are using scare mongering to justify it. Such matter of fact statements as my first quote of yours just show a residual boom mentality still in the industry of 'listen to me, I know best'. Architects I know acknowledge it probably would be better to insulate inside and outside rather than filling cavity's, yet we insist on using this building method in the majority of house's. 
There is no reason it should cost more to build here over any other country in Europe. 
More taxi driver mantra please... ciao!


----------



## onq (22 Nov 2010)

One Irish builder who "adjusted his work practices" is about to come under scrutiny because his out-of-town operatives left site leaving him to deal with a latent defect in their work practices that has just become evident.

There are very few people making profits now in the building industry.
Individual trades and interior work are in demand because these are the things you can afford to do with some surplus income.
Larger things like extensions and new builds cannot be contemplated because you cannot do this on surplus income - you need credit facilities.

And our lying, zombie still banks cannot lend into the economy.
The most recent excuse was the flight of investor capital.
Next month it'll be mice eating the hard drives.
These incompetents are unbelieveable.

It seems reasonable to assume that there will be no economic recovery while this condition persists.
The banks have brought us down and taking on board their debt is keeping us down.

Still, at least your assertion in your last post above that -
"There is no reason it should cost more to builder here over any other country in Europe" 

- sounds more relevant than what you said in your previous post, namely that -
"Pretty much every country between here and India is still cheaper to build than here."

That sounds like the kind of in-depth analysis the banks were doing to big borrowers proposals back in 2007 ~ i.e. none at all.

Pretty soon you'll start asserting that:

"You should be able to build in Dublin for what it costs to build in Donegal".

You may at last enter the ballpark of the working reality that location, climate and the building regulations impose on people building here.
Then you will be in a position to offer comfort to those people in London who pay through the nose for building work compared to those living in Lancashire.

Location, location, location.

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon                                                    as a defence or   support  -     in     and    of        itself  -         should         legal             action        be           taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in                                                    Real Life with rights   to         inspect     and       issue         reports    on     the                   matters    at           hand.


----------



## Protocol (22 Nov 2010)

A farmhouse in Dublin 3??????


----------



## onq (22 Nov 2010)

Possibly a single storey shed on Eglington.

I cannot fathom his thought processes at all.

Better than trying to build a Calcutta shanty in Blackrock.

ONQ.


----------



## Shamrock (23 Nov 2010)

@squirms - We have recently gotten a quote for a TF house from a turn key company. It came in at circa €100 per sq ft plus VAT. This included everything apart from Landscaping and local fees etc. We were very happy with this quote as thought it would be a lot more for a turn key company. House is on the southside of Dublin.


----------



## onq (23 Nov 2010)

Thanks Shamrock for contributing to this thread.
[I should have pointed out that all the costs I noted above were also nett of VAT.]
Your comment suggests there is a level for profitable building work in Dublin, where the site I referred to is also located.

You'll still have to watch them like hawks.

Make sure they do things like -

- putting the vents are in the right places in the outer walls
- sealing the the structure inside and out to prevent thermal loss from wind penetration and interstitial condensation from water vapour from with.
- the MVHR vents do not breach the 30 minsutes fire resistance your 1st floor and garage [if you have one directly attached] both require under Part B.

The very best of luck with it.

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon                                                     as a defence or    support  -     in     and    of        itself  -         should          legal             action        be           taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in                                                     Real Life with rights    to         inspect     and       issue         reports    on     the                    matters    at           hand.


----------



## Squirms (25 Nov 2010)

Hi,

Ok, thanks for that. I had been advised that it would be possible for  E75 per square foot, assuming we did a good deal of the work ourselves,  new people in the trades and had excellent haggling skills..... and even  better "keeping on top of builders" skills"! E85+ sounds reasonable and  E100 per square foor, for turn key, is really inspiring Shamrock- so  thanks for that! 

@ Protocol, yep, farmhouse in Dublin 3. Circa. .1 hectare. Includes  farmhouse, number of outhouses, courtyard and green area. Not a huge  site but sizeable for the locality and very unusual. 

@ Troy; you believe it is possible to get top quality work for  considerable less than E85 per square foot then?? How much less and  please forward me the name of your contacts! 

Incidently, it is not necessarily cheaper to build a 4-bed house in  India. it may indeed be cheaper for me, if i took my euros- hard earned  in Ireland- there ($3,000 per annum approx.), but were i living and  working in India and earning the average wage associated with that  country, than i may not find the difference in price so stark! A 4-bed  house in New Delhi, in a good location, costs in or around E380k...


----------



## onq (26 Nov 2010)

Interesting to find out the New Delhi prices.

I'm sure you still get more house for your money.

However its interesting its still not 1/10th the price.

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon                                                      as a defence or     support  -     in     and    of        itself  -         should           legal             action        be           taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in                                                      Real Life with  rights    to         inspect     and       issue         reports    on      the                    matters    at           hand.


----------

