# Converting attic to rent out. Good or bad idea?



## qwerty5 (23 Jan 2018)

I just wanted to pick the brains of the users here to get any positive or negative opinions of this idea.

I'm thinking of converting our attic (bedroom and ensuite) and renting it out from Sunday evening -> Friday mornings. I live reasonably close to Dublin with good public transport so this would suit a professional or student.
I haven't priced it yet but I'm assuming a maximum of €20K and I'm also assuming I can rent it for €400pm including bills. We'd only rent to a single person.
If that was the case it'd have paid for itself in 4 and a bit years.
This extra money would be put against the mortgage.

Pros that I can see include.
Extra income after 4 years. That'd be like getting a €9K payrise before tax.
Extra room in the house, increasing the houses value.

Cons are
Loss of privacy.
If it's not rented out then it's not extra income.
I could get a nutjob. But it's a licensee agreement so I'd vet them and set up a proper contract.
We have a young daughter so there's her security to consider. But that's where the vetting comes in.
Increase in utility bills.
If the house value increased as a result of the work it'd mean an increase of LPT.

Are there any more pros and cons that I should be thinking about. Is it a good idea or something that you wouldn't touch with a barge poll. All opinions welcome.


----------



## noproblem (23 Jan 2018)

You have forgotten about Planning permission and insurance in the above and revenue (tax) might also have to be considered.


----------



## Thirsty (23 Jan 2018)

If you found renting wasn't suiting you, could you repay the loan without the rent?

If the answer to that is yes, then I'd say give it a roll.

Some things to consider - make sure your wi-fi signal is still strong enough at the top of the house and put in a booster if not; you'll need to include a study desk and you might like to think of putting in a small TV.

@noproblem - there's no tax to be paid, it's covered under 'rent-a-room' scheme.

PP not required, assuming you are going for velux windows at the back and you are not looking to have it classified as 'habitable space'.


----------



## Leo (23 Jan 2018)

Thirsty said:


> PP not required, assuming you are going for velux windows at the back and you are not looking to have it classified as 'habitable space'.



That would be illegal, it's either habitable or it's not. If renting it as accommodation it needs to be fully compliant with planning, building, and in particular fire regs.

You would also need to look into any additional restrictions your household insurance policy stipulate when part or all the property is let.


----------



## noproblem (23 Jan 2018)

Thirsty said:


> If you found renting wasn't suiting you, could you repay the loan without the rent?
> 
> If the answer to that is yes, then I'd say give it a roll.
> 
> ...




Wow, i'm amazed you say there's no PP required, thought the roof structure might have to be changed or at least strengthened to support an extra room and all that entails. As Leo says, the insurance needs to be checked and amended accordingly to include a paid tenant. As far as I know you may still need to inform revenue that you're availing of the rent a room scheme even though there's a good allowance before you have any tax to pay (at the moment). I forgot to mention the intrusion on your privacy and person being in your house even though you or your family may not be there, plus, you never know who anybody is anymore.


----------



## llgon (23 Jan 2018)

As no problem says you can never be sure who you'll get, vetting will only achieve a limited amount. 

20k budget may be a bit optimistic, depends on how much structural work needed. Complying with fire and building regs can add a lot of cost but well worth it. 

If renting to a student they'll only be there 8-9 months of the year. Would it be worth the hassle of trying to get someone else for the summer. 

Would you provide meals for a student? Would you be happy enough to share your kitchen with someone else?


----------



## Gordon Gekko (23 Jan 2018)

Tax is a moot point...rent a room relief would apply


----------



## LS400 (23 Jan 2018)

You can spend 20k and rent your room to earn €1100 tax free.

I buy an apartment for €200000, pay stamp duty, property tax etc etc, and on 11k income, I would still have to hand over half of that income..


----------



## Páid (23 Jan 2018)

LS400 said:


> You can spend 20k and rent your room to earn €1100 tax free.



Since 2017 it's €14,000 relief annually - https://www.revenue.ie/en/personal-...nd-and-property/rent-a-room-relief/index.aspx


----------



## LS400 (23 Jan 2018)

Páid said:


> Since 2017 it's €14,000 relief annually



And this is where the system is completely out of kilter. While its a great idea and windfall to rent out your room with little or no monetary investment, yet when you invest money into the system/agents/surveyors where people earn a living and pay their taxes, and yet on the same amount of revenue earned, you pay dearly.


----------



## Thirsty (23 Jan 2018)

"That would be illegal, it's either habitable or it's not. "

It is not illegal to convert your attic; planning permission is not required.

You cannot however refer to it as habitable space; you will see plenty of estate agents referring to a 'converted attic' but do not count it as a bedroom, never mind the double bed, built in wardrobe and en-suite in the photos.

Are you suggesting that anyone using their converted attic as a bedroom should be prosecuted?


----------



## Thirsty (23 Jan 2018)

"If renting it as accommodation it needs to be fully compliant with planning, building, and in particular fire regs."

Can you provide reference specifically to rent-a-room/licensee in private house?


----------



## Leo (24 Jan 2018)

It's rent-a-room, not rent a wardrobe! You can't class a non-habitable space as a room.

The building regs cover all the requirements in detail. TG-B covers the additional requirements for fire safety where a floor is above 4.5m above ground as would be the case for attic conversions in two-storey houses.


----------



## Thirsty (24 Jan 2018)

> You can't class a non-habitable space as a room.


I believe I've already said that; and you'll find that many attic conversions (my own included) do not meet the height requirement and so can't be called a bedroom; notwithstanding the fact that all fire regs / certifications have been signed off for it.   So whilst it can't be called a bedroom, there are plenty of homes where it is used for exactly that. 

I don't believe there are specific standards/regs which are applied for a licensee in a private house; unless you can point me to them?


----------



## Thirsty (24 Jan 2018)

> thought the roof structure might have to be changed or at least strengthened to support an extra room


Just spotted this in one of the earlier posts.  Yes this absolutely needs to be done.  Make sure you get RSJs and have all certified.  You still don't need planning permission.


----------



## noproblem (24 Jan 2018)

I'd imagine renting out a room in a 3/4 bedroom house,  then advising the renter that their room is in the attic which has been added on without planning will go down real good with your insurance co if something goes wrong?


----------



## llgon (24 Jan 2018)

Thirsty said:


> I believe I've already said that; and you'll find that many attic conversions (my own included) do not meet the height requirement and so can't be called a bedroom; notwithstanding the fact that all fire regs / certifications have been signed off for it.




If the conversion does not meet the regulated minimum height how can ALL fire regs/ certifications be signed off for it?


----------



## qwerty5 (24 Jan 2018)

Thread has gone a bit off the rails. Can we assume that I'll convert the attic legally in accordance with planning regulations.


----------



## Gordon Gekko (24 Jan 2018)

It’s worth remembering that a “rent-a-roomer” is analagous to a paying guest in your home; he/she can be in a tiny box room with only a bed in it and there are no regulations being broken.

Putting a rent-a-roomer in your attic is no different to putting one of your kids up there (or your wife!).


----------



## Thirsty (24 Jan 2018)

"convert the attic legally in accordance with planning regulations"

Thats the point I'm making, there's no planning permission required. You should however make sure that the structural requirements are met.

If anyone you ask to quote doesn't include RSJs and an architects cert, drop them.

@Gordon Gekko - presumably husbands can also use the converted attic?

@noproblem - again, if you use velux windows at the back and aren't concerned about call it 'habitable space', you don't need planning to convert your attic.

Your insurance policy covers the building and your contents. It does not extend to the renters belongings.

@llgon - find me the bit in the fire regs where it talks about minimum ceiling heights.


----------



## llgon (24 Jan 2018)

Thirsty you said that 'all fire regs/certifications' were signed off despite not having minimum ceiling height. I was referring to the certifications aspect of this comment, sorry for not being clearer. So could you explain how all certifications were signed off?


----------



## Thirsty (24 Jan 2018)

@llgon

1. Architect conducted their inspection before during and after the conversion
2. Architect prepared and printed documents.
3. Architect signed documents.
4. Architect gave documents to me.

Edit: typo


----------



## llgon (24 Jan 2018)

I'm confused. Haven't you stated that your conversion cannot be called a bedroom and that it is a non-habitable space? I don't understand this if it has been fully certified by an architect.

What documents did the architect sign and give you?


----------



## Gordon Gekko (24 Jan 2018)

I am far from an expert on this, but aren’t people talking at cross-purposes?

I can put a room up in my attic and stick one of my kids up there.

However, without planning permission, I can’t sell the house as having an extra bedroom or rent it out via a tenancy.

But for a “rent-a-room” scenario, isn’t it analagous to one of my kids sleeping up in the attic? The person is a licensee with no rights and no tenancy in place.

So why is planning relevant?


----------



## Thirsty (24 Jan 2018)

"So why is planning relevant"

It's not, that's the point I keep making.

Edit typo


----------



## llgon (24 Jan 2018)

Gordon Gekko said:


> The person is a licensee with no rights and no tenancy in place.



I believe this to be true but that doesn't make it right. Fire and building regulations are there for a reason. I wouldn't put either my kids or a lodger sleeping in a non-habitable space and I don't think anyone else should either. Just because you can't be prosecuted for it doesn't mean it's alright to do it.


----------



## Thirsty (24 Jan 2018)

Well my non-habitable space is very warm, spacious, private, quiet and comfortable.


----------



## llgon (24 Jan 2018)

And safe?

I'd love to know what documents your architect gave you.


----------



## Thirsty (24 Jan 2018)

Perfectly safe.


----------



## Leo (25 Jan 2018)

Thirsty said:


> I believe I've already said that; and you'll find that many attic conversions (my own included) do not meet the height requirement and so can't be called a bedroom; notwithstanding the fact that all fire regs / certifications have been signed off for it.   So whilst it can't be called a bedroom, there are plenty of homes where it is used for exactly that.
> 
> I don't believe there are specific standards/regs which are applied for a licensee in a private house; unless you can point me to them?



The building regs that apply to storage space are far less onerous than habitable space for obvious reasons, particularly in relation to fire protection and provision of a safe exit routes. The regs that apply here are the standard building regulations, it is illegal to use a non-habitable space as such.




Thirsty said:


> Your insurance policy covers the building and your contents. It does not extend to the renters belongings.



Your policy may well be void if using non-habitable space as a bedroom and you also need to note that some policies have restrictions in cover that apply when accommodating paying guests.


----------



## Thirsty (25 Jan 2018)

> Your policy may well be void if using non-habitable space as a bedroom


Rather than speculation why don't you check your home insurance policy and show me where says that, because of course you are more likely to have water damage, be burgled, have windows broken etc., 



> ... some policies have restrictions in cover that apply when accommodating paying guests.


 That would be the case regardless of the attic conversion and is easy to check.



> it is illegal to use a non-habitable space as such.


Show me where it says that?


----------



## Easeler (25 Jan 2018)

I think OP its not a great idea to have someone living in your atic, it sounds like a lot of hasel to me, if you built on a room on ground floor with separate bathroom might not be too bad, he or she would be confined to downstairs, but having a stranger with free roam of the house sounds like trouble to me.your own privacy would be seriously compromised.


----------



## Leo (25 Jan 2018)

Thirsty said:


> Show me where it says that?



It's all in the building regs. Why do you think the Priory Hall evacuation was ordered? If it wasn't illegal to ignore fire regs that would never have happened.


----------



## Thirsty (25 Jan 2018)

> but having a stranger with free roam of the house sounds like trouble to me.your own privacy would be seriously compromised


I can only assume @galwaypat that you've never lived in a house/flat share?


----------



## Easeler (25 Jan 2018)

O yes I did and had some great times and would highly recommend it to young people because it is an education in it self. It drove me on to get my own place at a young age. I presumed that the OP is a family home and  for me I think it would be more hassle than its worth.


----------



## Thirsty (25 Jan 2018)

You're bouncing backwards and forwards from insurance to building regs.



> It's all in the building regs. Why do you think the Priory Hall evacuation was ordered?


So, this was a block of apartments that were not inspected and were signed off as _meeting _the required regulations, even though the requirements were *not met*.  The issue, as I'm sure you recall was uncovered when the block was inspected prior to the local council signing off on a tenancy agreement.

To return, again, to the OPs question.

1. there's nothing stopping you from converting and letting out your attic or any other room in the house under the rent-a-room scheme
2. you do not need planning (subject to the notes I've made already)
3. you should make sure you get all the work properly inspected and signed off, discuss this with the builder.
4. on the insurance front; there is no exclusion from cover on the buildings side, your policy may have some restrictions regarding theft where there is no forcible entry. You should review your buildings sum insured when the work is completed.
5. if you can afford to pay the loan without the rent, then I would say go ahead.  If you don't like renting, you can stop anytime.


----------



## michaelm (25 Jan 2018)

It sounds like something you don't need to do.  I wouldn't rent a room unless it was a financial necessity.  The vast majority of attics will not have the height such that they would require PP as would-be 'habitable' spaces.  We, like many I'm sure, use such a space as a kids bedroom.  You would get the 13.5% VAT back over 2 years through your tax under the HRI scheme.


----------



## Early Riser (25 Jan 2018)

The FAQs on this link seem relevant to some of the discussion above:

http://www.atticconversions.ie/FAQ/FAQ/Navigation.html

Disclaimer - I know nothing about the company concerned.


----------



## Leo (25 Jan 2018)

Thirsty said:


> So, this was a block of apartments that were not inspected and were signed off as _meeting _the required regulations, even though the requirements were *not met*.



Exactly, they were evacuated because they did not comply with building regs. The exact same building regs that specify the additional fire insulation and exit criteria that must be met for habitable spaces with a floor more than 4.5m above ground level. These additional requirements do not apply to storage space.


----------



## DublinD (11 Feb 2018)

OP - get a full costing from a trustworthy company including up to full habitable regs. Do your maths then. No tax on rent a room below the threshold.

*You can do whatever you like with a crappy conversion including putting a bed in it...that doesn't mean it's technically legal and compliant. Don't mix that up!

Anything happens to a person living (i.e. Habitable space) in a "converted attic" without the proper regulations in place (fire doors etc..) then you become liable....your choice I guess


----------

