# Planning Levies & Contributions €15k excessive? abolished next year? staged payments?



## Shamrock (7 Sep 2011)

Hi folks, not too sure if this has been discussed recently but any views on the above fees. We have planning for a build in DLRCOO and fees are €15000 which seems extremly high.

I was chatting to somone who heard that these may be abolished next year as lots of people aren't paying them? Is there any substance to this? 

Finally, do councils accept stage payments over a certain period? Many thanks for comments/ suggestions.


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## hastalavista (7 Sep 2011)

Cant comment on if they will go or not, the issue seems to be that there does not seem to be any way of enforcing payment. They will hardly demolish....


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## Docarch (7 Sep 2011)

I seriously doubt they will abolish them - if anything, they may increase them!  

Regarding stage payments, if you contact the Bonds & Contributions section of the Council they will be able to tell you.  I certainly know that some Councils will accept payment in stages (by prior agreement) and others will not.  Not sure about DLRCC.


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## onq (7 Sep 2011)

I referred to high Council charges in a recent post.

They are certainly a disincentive to carry out development.

Councils abandoning levies in the middle of a recession - doubt it.

Councils accepting stage payments - that could be a fruitful subject for discussion.

ONQ.

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All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon                  as a defence or support - in and of itself - should   legal        action    be      taken.
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## Shamrock (7 Sep 2011)

Thanks very much for the prompt replies. It was very wishful thinking on my part to think fees may have/will be reduced. Is there any information available on different fees for each council as I presume the €15k figure would be much lower in other areas?


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## Docarch (7 Sep 2011)

I am not aware of any centralised/comprehensive list of levies/contributions county by county. Are you thinking of shopping around or moving your planning to a different county?  Only joking. 

E15K would be typical for a new build/one off house in many parts of the country. 

In one way you could consider yourself lucky. I came across a (very very) large house extension in Fingal CC area where, because it was not a new house (i.e. an extension), contributions were levied per m.sq. and they amounted to E 23K. The applicant appealed to An Bord Pleanala (ABP) and ABP judged that the Council had mis-calculated the levies and increased them to E 27K!

In that case the applicant tried to argue that because the extension to the house was larger than the original house that they should have been levied no more than the levies would be for a new house (in the case of Fingal this is also E 15K).


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## onq (7 Sep 2011)

Shamrock said:


> Thanks very much for the prompt replies. It was very wishful thinking on my part to think fees may have/will be reduced. Is there any information available on different fees for each council as I presume the €15k figure would be much lower in other areas?



Don't assume - check. 

The Planning Development Contribution Schemes for Dun Laoghaire Rathdown  County Council are listed [broken link removed].
The Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council Development Contribution Scheme (2010-2017), 2009 is effective in respect of decisions made from 1st January 2010.

As an aside, I got told a horror story this afternoon about one house where permission was sought and granted in Dun Laoghaire Rathdown County Council.
Got hit for the €15K levy plus a levy for the completion of the M50 plus a levy for the Luas Line Extension - something like €54K in total!
Blew the young couple's prospective €200K budget they had out of the water - they couldn't build the house.

Its time for the level of these levies to be reviewed - they are restricting development in a recession.


ONQ.

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All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon                   as a defence or support - in and of itself - should    legal        action    be      taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in                   Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on   the         matters    at      hand.


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## boomboom4780 (7 Sep 2011)

Fingal County Council charge 143euro per square metre! A new house build of 25,000 sq ft will be charged over 27,000euro in develpoment contribution levies which would include a small reduction for a biocycle I think.

In my opinion, it's a crazy amount of money to have to pay especially in these times but there's no way around it!


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## Complainer (7 Sep 2011)

onq said:


> Its time for the level of these levies to be reviewed - they are restricting development in a recession.


Do we really need to be encouraging development, given the vast amounts of empty property in the country?



hastalavista said:


> Cant comment on if they will go or not, the issue seems to be that there does not seem to be any way of enforcing payment. They will hardly demolish....


I guess they'll just do what the NPPR folks do when you don't pay that bill - they'll make sure that they'll get their pound of flesh (plus heavy penalties or interest) when the house eventually gets sold.


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## onq (7 Sep 2011)

boomboom,

Please check your figures.

25,000 sq ft is a mansion of 2,322.56 sq.m

It would cost approximately €5,000,000 to build at €200 per sq ft.

The levy would be €332,125 at a rate of €143 per sq m.

I agree that the levy is outrageous.


ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon                    as a defence or support - in and of itself - should     legal        action    be      taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in                    Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on    the         matters    at      hand.


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## boomboom4780 (7 Sep 2011)

Sorry Onq I added an extra zero there by mistake, oops!

I was suppose to refer to a house size of 2500 sq ft.


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## onq (8 Sep 2011)

Its easy to make that mistake, but I had to check to be sure.

I've designed and built a 15,000 sq.ft. house for a client and there is one 34,000 sq ft house in Ireland, apparently, so you can't be too clever about it


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## Troy McClure (9 Sep 2011)

I know we are paying just over 5k in carlow. It came down a couple of hundred from last year as it linked to build inflation index. I would say there is no chance of these fees going. What bugged us is that although these is a fee of 1,350 for water in the contributions there was no mention of the further 2k they just asked us for to connect to it!

As for the stage payments I can tell you in CW they will take in proposals and work with you on this. We have ours over 6 stage payments done at points in the build that were agreeable. You do get a sense that they are maybe afraid they will be last to be paid. I can tell you you will not get water connection without some arrangement been in place for fees.


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## Shamrock (12 Sep 2011)

Troy McClure said:


> I know we are paying just over 5k in carlow. It came down a couple of hundred from last year as it linked to build inflation index. I would say there is no chance of these fees going. What bugged us is that although these is a fee of 1,350 for water in the contributions there was no mention of the further 2k they just asked us for to connect to it!


 
Thanks Troy for the response. It pays (literally) to live outside Dublin then? So from above when you factor in water and gas connections etc figure will be more close to 20k? That sounds crazy.


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## onq (19 Sep 2011)

Its not Dublin per se, although yes, Dublin tends to be more expensive.

Any local authority can vote in a schedule of planning levies based on infrastructure supporting the area in which the house is to be built.


ONQ.

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All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon                     as a defence or support - in and of itself - should      legal        action    be      taken.
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## mummol (2 Oct 2011)

We got planning on friday and a 10k bill on Monday.  Levies.  We're on Carlow/Wicklow border and someone in Carlow had sizeably less for same size house within 3 miles of where we built.


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## onq (23 Oct 2011)

Hi mummol.
Thanks for the update.

Sounds like what I was saying.
Is the other house in an adjoining County?


ONQ.

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All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon                      as a defence or support - in and of itself - should       legal        action    be      taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in                      Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports  on     the         matters    at      hand.


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## fairygirl (23 Oct 2011)

Hi Docarch - where does it say that in Fingal it's 15K for a new residential build?

I can only see the price per metre quoted - 143 euro!!

We've put our planning application in the paper on Friday and 15K development contribution to Fingal County Council would be miles better than a price per square metre!

TIA


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## onq (24 Oct 2011)

Docarch may have been speaking in terms of average new builds.

The Fingal Levies are [broken link removed]
The explanatory booklet is [broken link removed]

Class of Public Infrastructural Development
€ per square metre of Residential Development

Class 1: Roads infrastructure & facilities.....................€69.84
Class 2: Water & Drainage infrastructure & facilities......€49.91 
Class 3: Community & Parks facilities & amenities.........€23.25
Total of Contributions Payable................................€143.00

I don't have the site owner's ability to post tables here so I hope this is legible enough.
These rates should come down commensurately with the reduction in house prices in Dublin.


ONQ.

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All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon                       as a defence or support - in and of itself -  should       legal        action    be      taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in                       Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports   on     the         matters    at      hand.


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## Docarch (24 Oct 2011)

Thanks ONQ 

I hope I was not misleading! At _one stage_ levies for a typical house in Fingal was around E15k. Some councils in the past capped the levies for new houses no matter what size the house was (this tended to be in the region of E15k).  However, in this economic climate, councils have changed their contribution levels and parameters over the years. 

At one stage levies in some councils were linked to the Tender Price Index (TDI) so say if you were levied E10k as part of your palnning permission in 2005 and you started building in 2006, if the TDI had (for example) increased 10%, you paid E11k. Once the TDI started falling, this link was dropped _very _quickly! 

I once queried this reversal with Dun Laoghaire Rathdown CC and the lady in the contributions section just laughed down the phone and said where else do you think we are going to get money!


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## onq (24 Oct 2011)

Yep, that's about the size of it.
And no you weren't misleading, I remembered that too 

Councils are supposed to look after the roads, but car tax is paid into Central Government.
Dun Laoghaire Rathdown is getting fairly built up and the erosion of employment uses means rates income is falling.

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon                        as a defence or support - in and of itself -   should       legal        action    be      taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in                        Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports    on     the         matters    at      hand.


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## Mickyq (9 Nov 2011)

*Amendment to permission granted pre Jan 2010*

Hi all,

I'm thinking of purchasing a property that is in need of total refurbishment but has been granted planning permission for the refurb and 80 sqm extension pre 1st Jan 2010.

However, I was hoping to amend the planning to not include the extension but focus on the existing dwelling only.  Development would require four new windows to the front and potentially a new roof.  If there was no actual extension to the property, would this fall under the contribution levy?

Please excuse my lack of planning knowledge, first time buyer and new to all trimmings associated 

Thanks,

MickyQ


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## onq (10 Nov 2011)

The extent of the demolition work to the property (the roof in the particular) may mean you need permission, particularly if its in Dun Laoghaire Rathdown.
I was asked to clearly define that roof renewal work in an application following the near total demolition of another property which was being "extended".

At the very least you should discuss the matter with your local planning officer.
To be sure you could seek a Section 5 Declaration (€80 Fee + 4 weeks).


ONQ.

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All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon                         as a defence or support - in and of itself -    should       legal        action    be      taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in                         Real Life with rights to inspect and issue  reports    on     the         matters    at      hand.


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## Mickyq (21 Nov 2011)

Hi ONQ,

thank you very much for your response, hadn't realised there was a Section 5 available from the planning office.  Given that this property is for sale with fpp granted, would the section 5 declaration suffice for the basis of amending the plans to not include an extension?  I've found out that the original plans include a new roof to the existing property.

Kind Regards,

Michael


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## onq (22 Nov 2011)

The section 5 Declaration is a means of getting a definitive from the local authority on whether something does or does not constitute exempted development.

From - http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2000/en/act/pub/0030/sec0005.html

_*5.*—(1) If any question arises as to what, in any particular case,  is or is not development or is or is not exempted development within  the meaning of this Act, any person may, on payment of the prescribed  fee, request in writing from the relevant planning authority a  declaration on that question, and that person shall provide to the  planning authority any information necessary to enable the authority to  make its decision on the matter._

In and of itself, it has no power to amend previously permitted plans.
It may offer clarity as to whether or not the omission of an extension would constitute development within the meaning of the act.

In your case the question to be asked is a different question, since what you're doing is the opposite of development, its leaving something out.

One question might be:

"If I chose to vary the permitted works, must this be ratified under the planning the development acts through the mechanism of a revised planning application?"

However, you could ask a totally different question.

List all the works you want to have carried out (minus the extension) and then ask -

"Does this constitute development under the planning and development act 2000 and in particular section 4(1)(h) or is it exempted development?"

If you have to seek permission, you could just get it for the works you want to do, omitting the extension.


ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon                         as a defence or support - in and of itself -    should       legal        action    be      taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in                         Real Life with rights to inspect and issue  reports    on     the         matters    at      hand.


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## Jaffacake (8 Jan 2012)

*development contribution*

Hi,
We are thinking of buying a 1900s cottage (not listed) that has many flat roof extensions that were added on pre-planning.  They would not conform to any building regulations at all and are in need of knocking down and replacing.
The original cottage is about 550sq feet and the rest of the house extends to 1300 sq feet in total. We would plan to remove everything and rebuild but keep the original cottage (the 3 walls and open up back,with a new roof, internal insulation and dig down to put in insulation under original floor.  
If we keep to original size will we have to pay a development contribution or would it be exempt because we are replacing something and restoring the original cottage.  We would be looking to create a near passive house too.
I have seen planning applications where people may be replacing an existing extension and rebuilding to a bigger size and most ony seem to pay the difference from original size to proposed size.  Any advice much appreciated.


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## lowCO2design (8 Jan 2012)

original cottage area - ok
i was under the impression that the demoished area is not subtracted from the proposed new build area as regards contributions.
I commend you for wanting to restore the old cottage and for building to the passive standard.
I can only speculate that maybe the other applications only applied for/informed the planners that they were for instance changing the roof structure and therefore the msq demolish/new build fees are not applied..
what part of country are you in as this may effect the way the contributions are applied/ enforced?


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## Runner1 (15 Feb 2012)

Just to provide some comparison, i work in the south east of England and contributions for a 3 bed house are approximately 5k sterling (Local Authority I work for do it by number of bedrooms rather than sq/m), suppose it just shows that its still a "rip off republic" in Ireland!


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## Docarch (16 Feb 2012)

Runner1 said:


> Just to provide some comparison, i work in the south east of England and contributions for a 3 bed house are approximately 5k sterling (Local Authority I work for do it by number of bedrooms rather than sq/m), suppose it just shows that its still a "rip off republic" in Ireland!


 
The other side of that is that most households in the UK pay significant council tax on an annual basis to their local authority.


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