# Private schools (hidden extra fees)



## anntionette (20 Nov 2019)

Im wondering does anyone know what the extras one might end up actually paying when looking at a private school? trips,extra curricular activities,summer camp, afterschool homework club. Im sure this all adds to alot more! I went to St Marys primary today rathmines lovely feel for the place but im wondering if im pushing myself too much financially if i think its just a bit more then yearly fee. I didnt want to embarrass myself and ask what the extras cost. Are they reasonable?  anyone experience of this? and am i in for any extra surprises? I do need to budget for this. and be realistic. Thanks in advance.


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## Purple (20 Nov 2019)

No harm in asking them. There will be plenty of parents there in the same boat.


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## Thirsty (20 Nov 2019)

Ask.


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## Firefly (20 Nov 2019)

In our experience, the extra-curricular activities cost about the same as what you would normally pay outside of school.  Some of these may be included in the fees also so check with the school.

In any case definitely ask..they're asked all the time & should be able to rattle them off.

One benefit we find is that the activities are run directly after school, in the school. This means a lot less driving to things later on!


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## PaddyBloggit (20 Nov 2019)

As the site says .... Ask about Money (always). Just because a person chooses to send their children to a private school, it doesn't mean that they don't ask about all the financial costs involved.

Sometimes, the school's website will give an indication of extra-curricular charges.


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## TarfHead (23 Nov 2019)

anntionette said:


> I didnt want to embarrass myself and ask what the extras cost.



I believe you would not be embarrassing yourself.  It is valid to seek all relevant information before committing to a decision.

For what it's worth, my son finished in secondary school this year, having spent six years in a private school.  I paid one fee at the start of the year and there were few reasons to pay anything else after that.  Transition Year is a different matter but much of that is optional.  Also, he started after the introduction of iPADs so that cost didn't affect us.


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## mtk (24 Nov 2019)

To give you some idea of the extra over fees we paid......
 ty was 600/700 extra for us 
other extras were PTA/ insurance/ trips to theatre etc. <100 I think 
other trips 400+ But optional 
others like  evening meal and supervised study were (also optional )  v. reasonable
other extra curricular like public speaking which we didnt avail of were  I think were in line with non school based charges

No harm in asking school as suggested by another poster as* schools will differ.*
One thing to ask yourself is what you expect to gain by going the private route and make sure they have it/you think you will get it!


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## lledlledlled (25 Nov 2019)

One point to consider is attending private school usually means your peers will have a higher lifestyle than average. There may be additional pressure (implied or otherwise) to keep up with people who have more disposable income than you. 
If you're already embarrassed by asking the school about potential additional costs, you may find it difficult to say No to your child when all of their friends are getting the latest xyz. 

You mention Rathmines so I assume you are based in south dublin. It shouldn't be difficult to find a good public school near you.


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## B.A.C. (25 Nov 2019)

Why are you considering going private?


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## Gordon Gekko (25 Nov 2019)

B.A.C. said:


> Why are you considering going private?



Especially in Rathmines!


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## Purple (25 Nov 2019)

lledlledlled said:


> One point to consider is attending private school usually means your peers will have a higher lifestyle than average. There may be additional pressure (implied or otherwise) to keep up with people who have more disposable income than you.
> If you're already embarrassed by asking the school about potential additional costs, you may find it difficult to say No to your child when all of their friends are getting the latest xyz.
> 
> You mention Rathmines so I assume you are based in south dublin. It shouldn't be difficult to find a good public school near you.


Plenty of people who send their kids to private schools have modest enough incomes.


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## Peanuts20 (25 Nov 2019)

Any primary or secondary school will ask for "contributions" . In non-private schools there may more discretion if a family cannot pay them. My kids go to the ordinary local school, I'd say between them for everything, from arts and crafts, school trips, tours, ad hoc activities etc it works out at €150 per head (not Dublin prices). Secondary school, especially for transition year and for international trips can be a lot more expensive


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## NoRegretsCoyote (25 Nov 2019)

Purple said:


> Plenty of people who send their kids to private schools have modest enough incomes.



I doubt it.

Median net income of a household with two adults with 1-3 children under 18 is €54k according to CSO. Take fees of €5k each for two kids. That's 18% of average household income on school fees alone.

Let's define "modest" as 60% of median or about €32k in net household income. Then two kids at fee-paying schools will be over 30% of net household income, or about 15% for one child.

I am not saying that there are *no *households with modest incomes paying school fees, but there are not very many.


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## lledlledlled (25 Nov 2019)

Purple said:


> Plenty of people who send their kids to private schools have modest enough incomes.



That's true, in fact i was one such kid. However, in comparison with most public schools, the majority of private school families would, on average, have higher incomes. In many cases, it is significantly higher. 

For example, many of my peers were children of doctors, solicitors, successful bankers etc., that was the norm. This was not the norm in the local public schools many of my friends attended. One point of note is that some of my friends who attended public schools did very well for themselves indeed. Personally, i think the attitude/value placed on education by a child's parents is more of a determining factor on a child's success in school/3rd level/career than the schools the child attends. Alas, there are no League Tables to prove my theory. 

Of the remaining private school families on modest incomes, many get into difficulties trying to keep up with the Joneses. That is an unfortunate reality.


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## Purple (25 Nov 2019)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> I doubt it.
> 
> Median net income of a household with two adults with 1-3 children under 18 is €54k according to CSO. Take fees of €5k each for two kids. That's 18% of average household income on school fees alone.
> 
> ...


"Modest enough"
Sorry, I took it that people would be able to understand that within the context of this discussion and not take their own version of what I didn't say to counter a point I didn't make.

I'll try again; many, if not most, of the families who send their kids to private schools make sacrifices to do so and are not buying their kids BMW's and skiing in Aspen or renting a Yacht in the Riviera each summer.
Rather than resenting such families we should thank them as they are subsidising the public school system by paying for a place for their children twice.


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## Pugmister (25 Nov 2019)

For junior schools outside of some excursions i dont think you should expect to pay too much more than the annual fee.

At second level things can be become more expensive if Mary's is anything like Michaels. After school study is the norm for all students in 5th and 6th year and school trips to foreign countries along with rugby tours should you be on the first team would be an annual occurance from 3rd year onwards.

Obviosuly teenagers also want to keep up with their peers which can become an additional expense in fee paying schools if designer clothing and top of the range sports equipment is the standard across all pupils.

When i was in school about 30% of students had their own car and drove to school by 5th year.


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## Steven Barrett (25 Nov 2019)

Purple said:


> Plenty of people who send their kids to private schools have modest enough incomes.



Agree but you tend to find those are people who send their children to private secondary schools. The OP is talking about primary school. 

There is a massive demand on secondary schools in South Dublin. There were 800 applicants for 120 spaces for the secondary school my son is going to next year. For the school we wanted our daughter to go to, there was over 1000 applicants for 120 spaces. We are way down the list so we are sending her to a private school instead. The Dept of Education has built plenty of primary schools but additional secondary schools are non existent.


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## Purple (25 Nov 2019)

Some people send their child to the final year of the private primary school in order to guarantee a place in the private secondary school.


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## Purple (25 Nov 2019)

Pugmister said:


> When i was in school about 30% of students had their own car and drove to school by 5th year.


When I was in school 3 kids drove to school in 6th year. One was the son of a mechanic and the other two were the children of drug dealers. Different times...


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## Gordon Gekko (25 Nov 2019)

I’m in no doubt that the average household income (or the the median) for people who send their kids to private primary schools is far higher than €54k.

I would guess €150k.

The fees are also higher; e.g. €8k vs €6k for the same school primary vs secondary.


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## Thirsty (25 Nov 2019)

Teachers salaries in fee-paying Dept of Ed regulated second level schools are paid by the state; this is not the case for private junior schools.

Hence the difference in costs.


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## Purple (25 Nov 2019)

Gordon Gekko said:


> I’m in no doubt that the average household income (or the the median) for people who send their kids to private primary schools is far higher than €54k.
> 
> I would guess €150k.
> 
> The fees are also higher; e.g. €8k vs €6k for the same school primary vs secondary.


27% of households in Ireland have no earned income as all so the average median income of working households in Dublin would be significantly higher that €45k.


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## TarfHead (25 Nov 2019)

Gordon Gekko said:


> I’m in no doubt that the average household income (or the the median) for people who send their kids to private primary schools is far higher than €54k.
> 
> I would guess €150k.



I'm firmly on the left-hand side of that bell curve . One more year and I drop out of the sample altogether.


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## Firefly (25 Nov 2019)

Gordon Gekko said:


> I’m in no doubt that the average household income (or the the median) for people who send their kids to private primary schools is far higher than €54k.


I would go along with this bit. There are rich kids in both private &  public schools, but most in private schools who have to make sacrifices (and that's the majority in my experience) are probably from the "_Squeezed Middle_".



Thirsty said:


> Teachers salaries in fee-paying Dept of Ed regulated second level schools are paid by the state; this is not the case for private junior schools.


Yip that's correct, the teachers in my child's primary school are paid from fees.



B.A.C. said:


> Why are you considering going private?


A decent question and one that should be considered carefully. There are no guarantees in any case...it really depends on the child and the class / school. For primary schools I would advise trying to find out how nurturing the school is. I would recommend asking for a meeting with the principal to get the vibe. One thing we loved hearing was that the teacher swapped the kids around every week or so to encourage mixing.

For us, secondary school will come in less than the price of a new Ford Focus. In Dublin though it's probably the cost of a 3 Series so it's probably more of a consideration.


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## Hurling Fan (25 Nov 2019)

Purple said:


> "Modest enough"
> Sorry, I took it that people would be able to understand that within the context of this discussion and not take their own version of what I didn't say to counter a point I didn't make.
> 
> I'll try again; many, if not most, of the families who send their kids to private schools make sacrifices to do so and are not buying their kids BMW's and skiing in Aspen or renting a Yacht in the Riviera each summer.
> *Rather than resenting such families we should thank them as they are subsidising the public school system by paying for a place for their children twice.*



I would look at it differently to be honest .... the taxpayer is subsidising fee paying schools and the taxpayer has no choice in the matter.  I think if people want to send their children to fee paying schools they should pay for it all themselves without any payment from the tax payers coffers.


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## Purple (25 Nov 2019)

Hurling Fan said:


> I would look at it differently to be honest .... the taxpayer is subsidising fee paying schools and the taxpayer has no choice in the matter.  I think if people want to send their children to fee paying schools they should pay for it all themselves without any payment from the tax payers coffers.


If they sent their children to non fee paying schools then it would cost the taxpayer more at the State would be paying the full cost instead of half of it (or less).


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## Steven Barrett (25 Nov 2019)

Hurling Fan said:


> I would look at it differently to be honest .... the taxpayer is subsidising fee paying schools and the taxpayer has no choice in the matter.  I think if people want to send their children to fee paying schools they should pay for it all themselves without any payment from the tax payers coffers.



The State would want to do a better job in providing schools to go to. 

My kids are at the age where there's a lot of talk about secondary schools. I know of loads of parents who live in the area and can't get their son into the local secondary school as their national school isn't deemed a feeder school. These schools are closer than my son's school which is deemed a feeder school. Another parent sends his kids to an Irish school in the area, which isn't a feeder school for the nearest Irish secondary school either! There are lots of parents with children in 6th class who are still looking for secondary schools for their children. 

Estates have been built all over South Dublin over the last 20 years with thousands of new families. How many new secondary schools? 1

I live in Kilternan which has a population of just over 1,000. Under the area development plan, it will increase to about 12,000, the same size as Castlebar. No plans for a secondary school.


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## Hurling Fan (26 Nov 2019)

Purple said:


> If they sent their children to non fee paying schools then it would cost the taxpayer more at the State would be paying the full cost instead of half of it (or less).



I don't think anyone will dispute the fact the children that go to fee paying schools have some advantages over children who don't.  Smaller class sizes, more sports facilities etc.  Why should families that can't afford to send their children to fee paying schools subsidise the families that can.  I agree with SBarrett - our education system is over stretched as it is and I feel that money could be put to much better use in other areas.  

Purple I know you feel people who use fee paying schools are saving the country money, but sometimes it not all about money - I feel the tax payers money going into fee paying schools is a high cost, especially in the name of equality for all the country's children.


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## TarfHead (26 Nov 2019)

Hurling Fan said:


> Why should families that can't afford to send their children to fee paying schools subsidise the families that can.  .. I feel the tax payers money going into fee paying schools is a high cost, especially in the name of equality for all the country's children.



Can you call that out please ? Specifically what you mean by _subsidise_ and _equality_ ?


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## NoRegretsCoyote (26 Nov 2019)

Purple said:


> 27% of households in Ireland have no earned income as all so the average median income of working households in Dublin would be significantly higher that €45k.



Most households with no earned income are headed by pensioners or students.

That's why I specifically quoted two-parent families with 1/3 children under 18......

And it's *all *income, so includes benefits as well as earned income.


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## EmmDee (26 Nov 2019)

Hurling Fan said:


> Why should families that can't afford to send their children to fee paying schools subsidise the families that can.  I agree with SBarrett - our education system is over stretched as it is and I feel that money could be put to much better use in other areas.



It's the other way around. All pupils (public or private) have their teachers salary paid by the state - and are all entitled to that. In public schools the state also has to pay capital costs whereas capital costs are paid by the fees / contributions in private schools. So in effect private school fees are subsidising the state. If all private schools were to be turned over to state hands, the cost of education to the State would dramatically increase - or the pot would be shared out over many more schools.


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## Purple (26 Nov 2019)

Hurling Fan said:


> I don't think anyone will dispute the fact the children that go to fee paying schools have some advantages over children who don't.  Smaller class sizes, more sports facilities etc.  Why should families that can't afford to send their children to fee paying schools subsidise the families that can.  I agree with SBarrett - our education system is over stretched as it is and I feel that money could be put to much better use in other areas.
> 
> Purple I know you feel people who use fee paying schools are saving the country money, but sometimes it not all about money - I feel the tax payers money going into fee paying schools is a high cost, especially in the name of equality for all the country's children.



I'd suggest that there is a bigger difference between a non fee paying school in blackrock and a non fee paying school in Ballymun that there is between the fee paying and non fee paying school in Blackrock. I  suggest that the board of management of the non fee paying school in blackrock will still have accountants and solicitors and well connected people  and will still get sponsorship for their sports teams and raise lots of money at school fairs and sponsored walks etc. 

There are two types of schools; those where you get slagged for doing your homework and those where you get slagged for being thick.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (26 Nov 2019)

EmmDee said:


> It's the other way around. All pupils (public or private) have their teachers salary paid by the state - and are all entitled to that. In public schools the state also has to pay capital costs whereas capital costs are paid by the fees / contributions in private schools. So in effect private school fees are subsidising the state. If all private schools were to be turned over to state hands, the cost of education to the State would dramatically increase - or the pot would be shared out over many more schools.



This argument goes round and round in circles depending on your prejudices.

If the state decided to stop paying teacher salaries in fee-paying schools two things would happen:

Some schools would go fully fee paying (probably north of €10k a year)
Some schools would go fully public (I think Kilkenny College did this in 2014)
My own guess is that you would end up with about 10 fully fee-paying schools in Ireland.

But this is just a guess, and no one has a firm idea. So claims that fee-paying schools *cost *save the taxpayer money are purely speculative.


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## Leper (26 Nov 2019)

Just my thoughts:- Send your children to fee paying or non fee paying schools? I believe if the child has talent it will be nurtured and become visible in any school. Therefore, I believe paying for the same education that can be obtained "free" elsewhere is a waste of money. 

If the child has no talent, I see less point in paying for education. Mind you, this does not mean the child will not be successful in life. It  just means that the child is probably not suited to academia. 

In Cork, I would put the results in non paying secondary schools up against those of paying schools anyday. But, then again there's the rugby . . . and many over-hope their sons will don the red of Munster eventually; a likely pipedream when all is said and done.


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## Steven Barrett (26 Nov 2019)

Leper said:


> Just my thoughts:- Send your children to fee paying or non fee paying schools? I believe if the child has talent it will be nurtured and become visible in any school. Therefore, I believe paying for the same education that can be obtained "free" elsewhere is a waste of money.



I know the point you are making but I wouldn't wholly agree with it. If a bright child is in a disadvantaged school, they will find it difficult to progress. There are a lot of other factors outside the education system that will cause this. This child can be removed from the disadvantaged school and go to a free school that is not disadvantaged and shine. Parents have the biggest influence on how a child will do.

And by the way, I went to a fee paying school and some of the teachers there were shockingly bad. One of them reminded us constantly that he hated us and was only teaching for the long holidays. He has only retired in the last few years. I went to The Education Centre for 6th year, where all the teachers are paid from the fees. The difference in teaching was like night and day. Things made sense, teachers explained things clearly and really pushed you to succeed. 



Leper said:


> But, then again there's the rugby . . . and many over-hope their sons will don the red of Munster eventually; a likely pipedream when all is said and done.



That's another issue. Club rugby is decimated by the schools. In theory, kids are supposed to be allowed to play for both, pressure is put on them to play with their school. And if they are in the first team squad, they won't have time to play for both anyway. Fringe players too tend to stay with the school. If your son is good at rugby, he'll almost certainly get a better level of coaching at school level too than a load of dads shouting at you.


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## Purple (26 Nov 2019)

There are plenty of fee-paying girl's schools and even a few co-ed fee paying schools.
Just as all black people aren't drug dealer, all Travellers aren't criminals, all immigrants aren't scroungers/terrorists, all men aren't rapists and all attractive women aren't gold diggers  so it is the case that all people who send their kids to fee paying schools/ went to fee paying schools are not snobs or rugby fanatics.

Bigotry is bigotry, no matter what group you are looking down on and inverted snobbery is still snobbery.


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## Purple (26 Nov 2019)

It is also worth noting that most schools in Ireland are private schools but most of those private schools are fully State funded. We are discussing the minority of private schools which are partially State funded.


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## TarfHead (26 Nov 2019)

Leper said:


> In Cork, I would put the results in non paying secondary schools up against those of paying schools anyday. But, then again there's the rugby . . . and many over-hope their sons will don the red of Munster eventually; a likely pipedream when all is said and done.



Better chance of playing for Munster if you attend Blackrock College, e.g. Carbery, Conway, Loughman


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## EmmDee (26 Nov 2019)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> This argument goes round and round in circles depending on your prejudices.
> 
> If the state decided to stop paying teacher salaries in fee-paying schools two things would happen:
> 
> ...



That is a fair point - and I agree. There are two routes a school could go.

But I guess I was pushing back against the argument often made that public schools are subsidising private schools and that if only the state didn't pay teachers' wages in private schools then everything would be fine and there would be loads more cash to go around - I think it's a false assumption (quite apart from the other discussion regarding legality etc etc)


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## Firefly (26 Nov 2019)

Leper said:


> Just my thoughts:- Send your children to fee paying or non fee paying schools? I believe if the child has talent it will be nurtured and become visible in any school.


Maybe, but in a better school that will be nurtured even further. That doesn't have to be private by the way, but the smaller classes & extra funds in private schools will help you would imagine.



Leper said:


> Therefore, I believe paying for the same education that can be obtained "free" elsewhere is a waste of money.


It's not just the education though. There's a great scene in Goodwill Hunting (the bar scene if you want to cehck it out) where Matt Damon slags off a student from Harvard saying he can get just as good an education in the public library. That may well be true, but it's all the stuff around the edges that some parents want for their kids. In other words, it's the environment. Certainly for some, sending their kids to a private school is all about the cachet, but for most, in my opinion, it's the smaller class sizes, activities and if I'm being honest, being in a school where doing well is "normal" and not being slagged for doing so as Purple highlighted in some schools.  



Leper said:


> In Cork, I would put the results in non paying secondary schools up against those of paying schools anyday.


I would disagree to be honest. There are very good non paying secondary schools for sure, but there are some in Cork I wouldn't dream of sending my kids to. 



Leper said:


> But, then again there's the rugby . . . and many over-hope their sons will don the red of Munster eventually; a likely pipedream when all is said and done.


That may have been the case in your day , but it's less & less now. In fact, one of the 2 private secondary schools in Cork has made a massive move into GAA in recent years.


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## Purple (26 Nov 2019)

TarfHead said:


> Better chance of playing for Munster if you attend Blackrock College, e.g. Carbery, Conway, Loughman


Tadgh Beirne and Nick McCarthy didn't go to Blackrock then?


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## Leper (26 Nov 2019)

I'm sticking to my guns i.e. in Cork exam results are almost the same in fee paying and non fee paying secondary schools. Of course, that does not mean that later the employment that is attained is on a par to each. I have to admit the fee paying students for whatever reason seem to be more successful getting into the coveted jobs.  

Firefly is right though that there has been success in the paying schools of Cork competing in hurling.  But, just ask the hurling students there if they have access to all the facilities and accolades the rugby players  have. 

Let's take the issue of some of the schools that Firefly wouldn't dream of using. I would argue that a top performing student there would be head and shoulders above the equivalent in fee paying schools in many ways, not just academia. I can only guess where some of these schools are but I've worked with former students of these schools and I can categorically say that they  deserve any success they've earned. They've done it the hard way.


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## TarfHead (26 Nov 2019)

Purple said:


> Tadgh Beirne and Nick McCarthy didn't go to Blackrock then?



Clongowes & Michaels, I believe.  And Belvedere 'supplied' Downey, Keatley & Hart.
I guess there's a theme developing here


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## Leper (26 Nov 2019)

I must admit my rugby awareness of which schools our top players attended is scant.


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## Purple (26 Nov 2019)

Leper said:


> I must admit my rugby awareness of which schools our top players attended is scant.


In fairness why would you know about fee paying schools in Dublin?


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## TarfHead (26 Nov 2019)

Leper said:


> I must admit my rugby awareness of which schools our top players attended is scant.



Well, in fairness, you've a better chance of knowing the Leinster schools attended by Munster players, as against the South African ones attended by the rest of the squad


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## Leper (26 Nov 2019)

Just Some MoreThoughts:- Are all our secondary schools merely focused on exam results? Do any of our schools prepare the student for the "real" world? Is there enough focus on 3rd Level education in our secondary schools? Are trades dismissed by secondary schools?


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## Firefly (26 Nov 2019)

Leper said:


> I'm sticking to my guns i.e. in Cork exam results are almost the same in fee paying and non fee paying secondary schools.



I didn't want to bring up league / feeder tables as these are not a holistic assessment of a school or a student, but as you've mentioned exams, I will mention it in this context. 

The link below will download a PDF from the Irish Times for the feeder schools in 2018 (something to read in the sun!)


			https://www.irishtimes.com/polopoly_fs/1.3719470.1543903379!/menu/standard/file/fs.pdf
		


I'm not sure how many schools there are in Cork in total, but the 3 private schools in Cork city are placed 1, 3, 5 in Cork county. The top non paying schools are almost as good, so you are correct for these schools, but further down the list the % who go to 3rd level (and in particular those who go to university) really drops off.

Those same 3 private schools in Cork city come in at places 3,5,14 nationally. The highest placed non paying school in Cork city is 17 if you include Glanmire in the city, or else 21. 









						The top 100 schools in the country have been revealed | JOE.ie
					

The top 100 schools in the country have been revealed




					www.joe.ie
				






Leper said:


> Of course, that does not mean that later the employment that is attained is on a par to each. I have to admit the fee paying students for whatever reason seem to be more successful getting into the coveted jobs.


I agree. It's hard to pinpoint the exact reasons for this. I think it's a plethora of things that can be grouped as _environmental _- parents, school & peers. 



Leper said:


> Let's take the issue of some of the schools that Firefly wouldn't dream of using. I would argue that a top performing student there would be head and shoulders above the equivalent in fee paying schools in many ways, not just academia.


Head and shoulders above the equivalent? In what way?

In any case, even if you are right, I suspect that a lot of parents wouldn't like to take a chance. 



Leper said:


> I can categorically say that they  deserve any success they've earned. They've done it the hard way.


Agree 100%...fair play to those who do it the hard way, but as a parent, why risk it if you can avoid it?


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## Firefly (26 Nov 2019)

Leper said:


> Just Some MoreThoughts:- Are all our secondary schools merely focused on exam results?


I'm glad you brought this up as it seems to be very important for a lot of schools & parents. Way too much so in my opinion.



Leper said:


> Do any of our schools prepare the student for the "real" world?


I know you're away Leper in the sun, but in case you didn't see this in the news it's really worth a read!!








						Dublin bar advertises for 'experienced snowflake' as co-owner says he was inspired by complaints from millennials
					

A DUBLIN café bar owner has said his exasperation with millennials "who can barely tie their laces" led him to post a joke job ad seeking to recruit an "experienced snowflake".




					www.independent.ie


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## Steven Barrett (26 Nov 2019)

Leper said:


> they  deserve any success they've earned. They've done it the hard way.



Any kid that does well in school deserves it no matter what school they went to. The teachers in both fee paying and non fee paying schools come from the same pool of teachers. The child has to work hard to achieve good results no matter where they go to school.


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## Purple (26 Nov 2019)

Leper said:


> Just Some MoreThoughts:- Are all our secondary schools merely focused on exam results?


 Yes, particularly in more affluent areas.



Leper said:


> Do any of our schools prepare the student for the "real" world? Is there enough focus on 3rd Level education in our secondary schools?


 It would be useful if students were thought how to make a tax return, cooking and general dietary education and other practical life skills.



Leper said:


> Are trades dismissed by secondary schools?


 Yes, particularly in more affluent areas. Speaking as a Tradesperson I can say that educational snobbery in this country is remarkable and young people will be encouraged to do a useless degree in a subject the student has no real interest in rather than a Trade for which they may have an interest and an aptitude. The result is we generally get a lower calibre of student going into trades and, particularly in my area (engineering), a low calibre of tradesperson. 
Thankfully countries such as Poland and Lithuania have excellent trade schools which have a high prestige and produce excellent tradespeople.


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## Firefly (26 Nov 2019)

SBarrett said:


> Any kid that does well in school deserves it no matter what school they went to. The teachers in both fee paying and non fee paying schools come from the same pool of teachers.


The teachers may come from the same pool but in disadvantaged areas they have to deal with larger class sizes as well the difficulties kids from disadvantaged areas can typically face. The Deis program is trying to address some of these issues, but compared to going to a private school, a kid who does well coming from a disadvantaged area deserves more credit in my opinion.


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## Firefly (26 Nov 2019)

Purple said:


> Yes, particularly in more affluent areas. Speaking as a Tradesperson I can say that educational snobbery in this country is remarkable and young people will be encouraged to do a useless degree in a subject the student has no real interest in rather than a Trade for which they may have an interest and an aptitude. The result is we generally get a lower calibre of student going into trades and, particularly in my area (engineering), a low calibre of tradesperson.
> Thankfully countries such as Poland and Lithuania have excellent trade schools which have a high prestige and produce excellent tradespeople.



No reason today that anyone going into a trade with their head screwed on couldn't do very well for themselves. I know someone well who went into a trade straight after school & retired in his 30s


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## Purple (26 Nov 2019)

Firefly said:


> No reason today that anyone going into a trade with their head screwed on couldn't do very well for themselves. I know someone well who went into a trade straight after school & retired in his 30s


I agree, but they generally don't.
A good tradesperson should earn over €60k a year and can earn far more than that.


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## Purple (26 Nov 2019)

Firefly said:


> The teachers may come from the same pool but in disadvantaged areas they have to deal with larger class sizes as well the difficulties kids from disadvantaged areas can typically face. The Deis program is trying to address some of these issues, but compared to going to a private school, a kid who does well coming from a disadvantaged area deserves more credit in my opinion.


DEIS schools have much more resources and smaller class sizes than private schools. The problem is that the parents generally have a lower educational level and so cannot help their kids as much with homework and there is no culture of educational attainment. Kids from poor rural backgrounds generally do far better educationally than their urban counterparts. That tells us that the problem is mainly cultural which makes it far harder to fix. 
There's a lot of BS talked about sending kids to grind schools but the child of a teacher or someone with a generally high level of educational attainment has that same advantage at home.


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## Thirsty (26 Nov 2019)

> All pupils (public or private) have their teachers salary paid by the state


Only for Secondary schools.


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## Gordon Gekko (26 Nov 2019)

It is less about the school and more about the domestic environment and whether it’s conducive to achievement.

In a private school, it’s the case that more families are pulling in the same direction and, quite simply, “have a plan”.


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## noproblem (26 Nov 2019)

There's the important factor of parents to take into consideration also.  Sadly, an awful lot of them are rather loud when results are not what they feel they're entitled to, but not half as interested when it comes to helping their children achieve the result, or have the home environment in place to do so.


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## Firefly (26 Nov 2019)

Gordon Gekko said:


> It is less about the school and more about the domestic environment and whether it’s conducive to achievement.


I think there are 3 pieces to the puzzle....home, school & peers. The school will largely determine the peers, so if responsible parents who encourage education at home pick the right school, they really have the main bases covered. Of course, you can only bring a horse to water and if the kid has no interest whatsoever in school then it won't matter a jot...but at least as a parent can say you did your bit!


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## misemoi (26 Nov 2019)

I genuinely think it's 60% minimum home life. Having parents who are focused on education, even if they have a very low level, is key. I am from a disadvantaged rural background, my parents had no opportunity for education beyond primary school but they directed and enabled their children to achieve degrees and masters, or support for a trade if that was what we wanted. Very little spent on grinds and attending what is probably a Deis school now. We thrived because we had the right environment at home, and navigated the variety of quality of teachers. I do believe that career success after this is based on personality and soft skills, innate or learned.


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## Leper (27 Nov 2019)

Firefly said:


> I think there are 3 pieces to the puzzle....home, school & peers. The school will largely determine the peers, so if responsible parents who encourage education at home pick the right school, they really have the main bases covered. Of course, you can only bring a horse to water and if the kid has no interest whatsoever in school then it won't matter a jot...but at least as a parent can say you did your bit!



I'm learning fast on the subject and I feel it is a pity this forum wasn't live when ours started school. "Three pieces to the puzzle . . . home school and peers." And I'd have some difficulty arguing the points with Firefly and I'd lose the debate handsomely. But, I'm having a Detective Colombo moment (minus the cigar and trench coat). Would I be right in saying?:- If we had (a) Good learning home environment (b) Teachers in school doing their job properly (c) All students buying into acquiring good education standards that now there would be no need for private schools, no need for grinds etc


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## Firefly (27 Nov 2019)

Leper said:


> I'm learning fast on the subject and I feel it is a pity this forum wasn't live when ours started school. "Three pieces to the puzzle . . . home school and peers." And I'd have some difficulty arguing the points with Firefly and I'd lose the debate handsomely. But, I'm having a Detective Colombo moment (minus the cigar and trench coat). Would I be right in saying?:- If we had (a) Good learning home environment (b) Teachers in school doing their job properly (c) All students buying into acquiring good education standards that now there would be no need for private schools, no need for grinds etc



I think you would always have private schools and grinds but they wouldn't have 1/2 the demand for them.


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## Steven Barrett (27 Nov 2019)

Firefly said:


> The teachers may come from the same pool but in disadvantaged areas they have to deal with larger class sizes as well the difficulties kids from disadvantaged areas can typically face. The Deis program is trying to address some of these issues, but compared to going to a private school, a kid who does well coming from a disadvantaged area deserves more credit in my opinion.



It's not an either or, a private school or a disadvantaged school. Most secondary schools are just normal, so it doesn't apply to the majority of most kids. But for a kid who goes to a disadvantaged school and disadvantaged background, they have so much more to battle against than just sitting the Leaving Cert, so in those circumstances I would agree.


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## Leper (27 Nov 2019)

Some interesting thoughts from S Barrett although I'm wondering what is meant by "Most secondary schools are just normal, . . ." Does normal mean a school with some good teachers and not so good teachers? Are all teachers in private schools more dynamic in their approach to educating students?

Firefly thinks we "would always have private schools and grinds" - But, if all teachers were doing their jobs properly, surely we wouldn't need private schools and grinds? Anything else suggests that the teaching fraternity have lots to lose by doing the job properly.


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## Firefly (27 Nov 2019)

Leper said:


> Firefly thinks we "would always have private schools and grinds" - But, if all teachers were doing their jobs properly, surely we wouldn't need private schools and grinds? Anything else suggests that the teaching fraternity have lots to lose by doing the job properly.



I think it's less to do with the quality of the teaching to be honest. A teacher will try to bring the class on as a whole. A weak student may still want grinds to pass but a strong student may want grinds to get a course with very high points.


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## Firefly (27 Nov 2019)

SBarrett said:


> Most secondary schools are just normal, so it doesn't apply to the majority of most kids.


Instead of trying to teach a class of 30, the teacher in a private school will only have to teach to a class of 20 or so. The same kid, from the same family, putting in the same effort would expect to do better in a smaller class would they not?


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## lledlledlled (27 Nov 2019)

Firefly said:


> Instead of trying to teach a class of 30, the teacher in a private school will only have to teach to a class of 20 or so. The same kid, from the same family, putting in the same effort would expect to do better in a smaller class would they not?



In the private school I attended, class sizes were minimum 30


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## NoRegretsCoyote (27 Nov 2019)

Firefly said:


> Instead of trying to teach a class of 30, the teacher in a private school will only have to teach to a class of 20 or so. The same kid, from the same family, putting in the same effort would expect to do better in a smaller class would they not?




Little to no evidence that class sizes matter.

Everyone forgets the biggest factor influencing outcomes is not teacher quality, or home life, or school resources but *the IQ of the students*.

Much of that is set in the womb, if not at conception.


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## Thirsty (27 Nov 2019)

> Everyone forgets the biggest factor influencing outcomes is not teacher quality, or home life, or school resources but *the IQ of the students*.


On the contrary, research would indicate that IQ is towards the bottom of the list.


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## Purple (27 Nov 2019)

Firefly said:


> Instead of trying to teach a class of 30, the teacher in a private school will only have to teach to a class of 20 or so. The same kid, from the same family, putting in the same effort would expect to do better in a smaller class would they not?


Class sizes of 18-24 are optimal but raising it into the low 30's has little impact.


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## Firefly (27 Nov 2019)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> Everyone forgets the biggest factor influencing outcomes is not teacher quality, or home life, or school resources but *the IQ of the students*.


Even if that were true, my point was made in reference to taking the same kid into a larger vs smaller class.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (27 Nov 2019)

Firefly said:


> Even if that were true, my point was made in reference to taking the same kid into a larger vs smaller class.




It is true.

Also, little to no evidence that class sizes make a difference.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (27 Nov 2019)

Thirsty said:


> On the contrary, research would indicate that IQ is towards the bottom of the list.




You have two classes of students at the start of the year. One has an average IQ of 120, the other 80.

Assign a bad teacher to the high-IQ class and a good one to the low-IQ class.

Which one will get better grades at the end of the year?


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## Thirsty (27 Nov 2019)

> Which one will get better grades at the end of the year?



a. 'Average' IQ is set at 100.
b. An IQ of 120 is considered above average.
c. An IQ of 80 would be considered to be someone with a learning difficulty.

Leaving that aside, a pupil with good parental support will do well.


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## Purple (27 Nov 2019)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> It is true.
> 
> Also, little to no evidence that class sizes make a difference.


Will the student with an IQ of 110 and is dyslexic who had parents who are both teachers and attends a good school in a middle-income area do better than a student with an IQ 120 and is dyslexic who had parents who both left school functionally illiterate and have addiction issues and attends a school in a lower-income area? I think we all know the answer.


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## TarfHead (27 Nov 2019)

Grade or academic achievement is a narrow definition of what secondary school can be.

A private school can offer more in the area of extra-curricular or co-curricular activities. The school my son attended ran plays, a musical and an a wind band.  And that's in addition to field games.  And the voluntary activity in co-operation with Vincent De Paul.  Many public schools provide many of these activities, but I guess few many offer as many as fee-paying schools can.

My nephew attended the same school and picked up one instrument for the first time, in first year.  He has completed two years in the National Youth Orchestra and is now studying music at third-level.  That talent may not have been nurtured in another school.

There was a news item yesterday about a commemorative coin for Philip Lynott.  It was hosted by the school he attended in Crumlin and I was struck by the performance of the school orchestra.  So an orchestra is not the preserve of the privileged.


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## Gordon Gekko (27 Nov 2019)

TarfHead said:


> There was a news item yesterday about a commemorative coin for Philip Lynott. It was hosted by the school he attended in Crumlin and I was struck by the performance of the school orchestra



Yes, but the average age of the school orchestra members is 26 because they’ve stayed back so many times, so I wouldn’t give them too much credit!


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## Purple (27 Nov 2019)

Gordon Gekko said:


> Yes, but the average age of the school orchestra members is 26 because they’ve stayed back so many times, so I wouldn’t give them too much credit!


That's very inappropriate and quite offensive.

I like it


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## EmmDee (28 Nov 2019)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> You have two classes of students at the start of the year. One has an average IQ of 120, the other 80.
> 
> Assign a bad teacher to the high-IQ class and a good one to the low-IQ class.
> 
> Which one will get better grades at the end of the year?



The point about learning difficulties was made above. But I'd also add that IQ probably has less impact on grades in Junior and Leaving cycles. They aren't IQ tests. Practical work and exam / study strategy has a much greater effect. And an engaged / enthusiastic teacher (public or private) will help a lot with that. And in fact, the more recent public schools often have a younger teaching base and can be more engaged.

The advantage of a private school isn't really the quality of teachers - they have all been through the same training and are interchangeable (many young teachers on part time or temporary contracts will interchange between public and private schools) - but it is often seen in the choice of subjects and the potential to do more specialist subjects. A private school will often have more "teachers per pupil" numbers but that doesn't mean small classes for the main subjects but may mean some subjects will be supported which may not have large classes. And in doing that, they may help kids find subjects that engage them (my daughter did Classics for the leaving as an example)

Additional extra-curricular work (i.e. grinds) will always have a function in a system with an emphasis on a single examination at the end of the cycle which determines entry into 3rd level. Whether as assistance to help students who are weak, students who need to hit above average grades or even as a reassurance mechanism (this was the case for me I think). There are negatives to the Leaving Cert and the clearing system that is the CAO but I have a lot of exposure to the US and UK systems where it isn't anonymous and there are application forms and interviews for each University and I have to say I think that is a much more biased system (did your parents go the college, what is your background, decisions made on non-defined criteria etc) - and there are the equivalent of grinds there to assist in SAT scores but also to assist on application process.

All systems have pros and cons - but overall, if a student is of reasonable / average ability and there is a sense of expectation at home (doesn't have to be overly manic about it) they will probably be fine no matter which school they go to. I would emphasise the extra-curricular side f things though. It provides structure and gives them a purpose. And if a public school didn't have a lot of these, there are other ways of adding that to the mix - local clubs and societies can provide that if the school didn't


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## Purple (28 Nov 2019)

EmmDee said:


> The point about learning difficulties was made above. But I'd also add that IQ probably has less impact on grades in Junior and Leaving cycles. They aren't IQ tests. Practical work and exam / study strategy has a much greater effect. And an engaged / enthusiastic teacher (public or private) will help a lot with that. And in fact, the more recent public schools often have a younger teaching base and can be more engaged.


The Leaving Cert is more a test of how good your memory is than what your IQ is.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (28 Nov 2019)

EmmDee said:


> The point about learning difficulties was made above. But I'd also add that IQ probably has less impact on grades in Junior and Leaving cycles. They aren't IQ tests.



Of course they aren't IQ tests. But, on average, kids with higher IQs get better school grades. A hundred years of psychological research suggests that there is a general cognitive ability factor, and it influences achievement in all academic domains. There are exceptions at either end of course, but it's a pretty strong predictor.



Purple said:


> The Leaving Cert is more a test of how good your memory is than what your IQ is.



It's a test of application as well as general cognitive ability. But if you don't have the mental horsepower no amount of rote learning will get you through. A motorbike can't pull a laden trailer.


My overall point is that parents should relax because neither they, nor schools, make a huge difference.


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## Purple (28 Nov 2019)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> It's a test of application as well as general cognitive ability. But if you don't have the mental horsepower no amount of rote learning will get you through. A motorbike can't pull a laden trailer.


If you are really really good at remembering stuff you'll do well no matter how thick you are and if you are really really smart and no good at remembering stuff you'll do badly.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (28 Nov 2019)

Purple said:


> If you are really really good at remembering stuff you'll do well no matter how thick you are and if you are really really smart and no good at remembering stuff you'll do badly.



But being "able to remember stuff" is a pretty large part of being "smart".


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## Purple (28 Nov 2019)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> But being "able to remember stuff" is a pretty large part of being "smart".


No it isn't.
Knowing Boyle's law (just knowing it well enough to know that it's about gas and volume and pressure) and Google are all you need to know if you want .  There are people who know Boyle's law but wouldn't think to use it to solve a particular problem.
So knowing PV=K means you have a good memory.
Knowing that Boyle's law can remove moisture from a gas circuit of a medical device at room temperature in a vacuum chamber (but not knowing the equation is PV=K) means you are smart.
When the Brits got outsmarted by an uneducated "darkie" they called it "native cunning" since they confused  knowledge with intellect.
Some years ago the head of the Engineering Faculty in UCD told me to never confuse education with qualification.


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## Firefly (28 Nov 2019)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> My overall point is that parents should relax because neither they, nor schools, make a huge difference.



Not sure about this to be honest. We moved one of our kids to a new school this year.....doing "fine" in the old school but we weren't fine. Since moving to the new school....a spring in the step every morning (and I know as I do the drops!). Confidence is up and as we check the homework, the standard is definitely up as well. So I think the right school can make a difference.


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## Steven Barrett (28 Nov 2019)

Firefly said:


> Instead of trying to teach a class of 30, the teacher in a private school will only have to teach to a class of 20 or so. The same kid, from the same family, putting in the same effort would expect to do better in a smaller class would they not?



That's not true. Private schools don't have small classes. They are about the same as public schools.


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## Firefly (28 Nov 2019)

SBarrett said:


> That's not true. Private schools don't have small classes. They are about the same as public schools.



There are less than 15 in my child's class. The classes in the secondary school are between 20-22. Maybe the classes in Dublin are larger..


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## Purple (28 Nov 2019)

Firefly said:


> There are less than 15 in my child's class. The classes in the secondary school are between 20-22. Maybe the classes in Dublin are larger..


It's much harder to manage a large group of culchies, especially at a young age before they have been civilised.


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## Firefly (28 Nov 2019)

Purple said:


> It's much harder to manage a large group of culchies, especially at a young age before they have been civilised.



 I guess!


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## Steven Barrett (29 Nov 2019)

Firefly said:


> There are less than 15 in my child's class. The classes in the secondary school are between 20-22. Maybe the classes in Dublin are larger..



Varies from school to school I guess. 

I have found that they usually have 25ish in each class. But then there might be 3-4 classes in a year. The school my daughter will be going to has 2 classes of 25. The other public and private schools we were looking at all have 120 pupils per year (not sure how many classes but I don't imagine there's 6-7, the schools weren't that big!).


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## Ger1966 (3 Dec 2019)

To get back to Antoinett's initial question - I've no experience of paying privately for primary - but below is what my extras were for my daughter who (thankfully) is in 6th year now. 

Parent Teachers Association                    20
5th year ambassador program                  5
Burren Field Trip                                    200 (she's doing Biology for LC, so apparently some sort of a field trip is required)
Essential Guidance Learners Record       10.50
Hockey Finals Bus                                    15
Lunch                                                     104.80 (she normally brings in lunch with her, but sometime we tell her to get lunch in school)
Music Lessons Charges                          350
Photocopying 1/2 year charge                 11
SCT Rugby Bus / Tickets                            8.50
Student Diary Planner                              12
Year 5 Hamlet trip                                      7
Yearbook                                                  25

Most of these "extras" would have been accrued during the second part of 5th year.


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## Steven Barrett (3 Dec 2019)

School league tables are out








						Private schools keep grip on high-points college courses
					

Feeder Schools list: Dominance of fee-paying sector likely to spark debate on €90m in State subsidies




					www.irishtimes.com


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## anntionette (3 Dec 2019)

SBarrett said:


> That's not true. Private schools don't have small classes. They are about the same as public schools.


...on my tour of a Dublin private school last week with the Principal,  in second class, class size they try for 22 but can go up to and max at 26. which i think they regularly do go to when i pushed for an answer of last few years numbers. In general class sizes are a few smaller then public schools but not by so many. In Dublin anyway.


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## anntionette (3 Dec 2019)

Ger1966 said:


> To get back to Antoinett's initial question - I've no experience of paying privately for primary - but below is what my extras were for my daughter who (thankfully) is in 6th year now.
> 
> Parent Teachers Association                    20
> 5th year ambassador program                  5
> ...



Very helpful. Thank you.


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## Thirsty (3 Dec 2019)

94 posts and only one answers the actual question asked - is this a record for the number of off-question posts?


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## anntionette (3 Dec 2019)

Thank you. I'm very impressed at all the  replies. Interesting views. Surprised tho that no one (well i don't remember seeing any reference) to the private school business contacts/ connections you make going thru the private school system. I thought that was a biggie? I didn't go to private school but my partner did. and well i can tell you thats how he got into the current 'good' job. Ireland is still very much who you know, obviously that should change but its the nature of this small country. Also his dad told me that of all his 4 children, my partner needed the private schooling ethic of all the other kids working hard as he was a messer and would have been expelled (for stupid things) but for the fact he was between 2 other siblings who were there and behaved. They gave him chance after chance and eventually he realized he had to work hard to keep up with his friends or be left behind. My dad in law reckons it was worth every penny for that child. *B*oth parents were all over the home aspect and were great parents. But if you've got a difficult kid in their teenage years who can be easily lead, this could be the making of them. - Wisdom from the father in law. And they struggled to pay all these fees they don't have a penny or a spare house to leave their kids but gave them the best education they could afford. That's what id like to do for my kids now. And  i've definitely got one messer! And as has been said there will be sacrifices to be made. we dont have 12k laying around to pay for 2kids every year, but ill keep working to make it happen. I cant believe how stressful worrying about their education can be! and there only 4 and 7! and to answer someone who asked why primary school? because believe it not they will not get into secondary private if they dont start sooner then 6th class. everyones trying to get in at 5th and 6th class  but that gap is closing very quickly the last couple of years as more people are sending their children to private. so all im doing is getting in a year or 2 earlier and taking the stress out of it for me and them as they will have all their friends made and be settled in by starting secondary. or maybe im mad!


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## anntionette (3 Dec 2019)

Thirsty said:


> 94 posts and only one answers the actual question asked - is this a record for the number of off-question posts?


It was a very interesting read tho.


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## Ger1966 (4 Dec 2019)

Hi Anntionette, I get where you're coming from about putting them into primary school in 2nd or 3rd class in order to secure a place in secondary by default.  Does the secondary school have a "siblings" rule i.e. if a child already has a brother / sister in the school then he/she will automatically get a place? 

If so, would you consider just sending child #1 to the primary school in order to get them into the "secondary system" and then use the sibling rule to secure a place for child #2? It could save you ~€24K (assuming you were planning to send child #2 from 3rd class @ €6K per year). I know this might be seen as treating your kids differently, but if your main reason for doing this is just to secure a place in the secondary school, why would you pay on the double to achieve it?

My last child is nearly finished secondary school, but I must admit that my wife and I found it a struggle to put our 3 kids through private school, so I'd urge you to think long and hard about this. See this thread for more info:




__





						Got a credit union loan to finance secondary and college fees, after remortgage refused
					

I have amended the title to reflect the outcome - Brendan   Age: 48 Spouse age: 49 Annual gross income from employment or profession: €47K Annual gross income of spouse: €38K  Type of employment self - Private Sector IT Type of employment spouse - Public Sector  Rough value of home: €850000...



					askaboutmoney.com


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## Steven Barrett (4 Dec 2019)

Thirsty said:


> 94 posts and only one answers the actual question asked - is this a record for the number of off-question posts?




Obviously not a lot of experience with private primary schools. 



anntionette said:


> I cant believe how stressful worrying about their education can be! and there only 4 and 7! and to answer someone who asked why primary school? because believe it not they will not get into secondary private if they dont start sooner then 6th class. everyones trying to get in at 5th and 6th class  but that gap is closing very quickly the last couple of years as more people are sending their children to private. so all im doing is getting in a year or 2 earlier and taking the stress out of it for me and them as they will have all their friends made and be settled in by starting secondary. or maybe im mad!



Just been through it. My son is starting 1st year next year. Luckily we had a place in a decent school but just last week, he got accepted into our first preference. My daughter is in 3rd class and we have paid the deposit for a place in a private school after we realised she has no hope in being accepted into the public school we wanted her to go to. 

I think that the big additional costs coming in secondary rather than primary, hearing of trips to China, New York and skiing in the winter!! Certainly not compulsory mind. 

Before pressing the button for private primary school, look into the application process for the secondary school. As Ger said, the sibling rule will parachute child 2 to the top of the list. Unless you have a particular private school in mind, if you register an interest in a few, they will get a place in at least one.


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## EmmDee (4 Dec 2019)

SBarrett said:


> I think that the big additional costs coming in secondary rather than primary, hearing of trips to China, New York and skiing in the winter!! Certainly not compulsory mind.



Not that common - a small number of schools have done things like these though by no means are they universally taken up. By and large, the trips to places like Africa / Far East are connected to charity groups and are fund-raised (at least partially)

The school our kids went to had trips to Europe generally - but they weren't "whole of class" trips. They were connected to subjects. So there was a Geography trip in 5th year for example. There was a more general trip in Transition Year to Italy. Again not universal and I don't think there was any discussion about why someone may or may not go - it was pretty low key


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## anntionette (4 Dec 2019)

Ger1966 said:


> Hi Anntionette, I get where you're coming from about putting them into primary school in 2nd or 3rd class in order to secure a place in secondary by default.  Does the secondary school have a "siblings" rule i.e. if a child already has a brother / sister in the school then he/she will automatically get a place?
> 
> If so, would you consider just sending child #1 to the primary school in order to get them into the "secondary system" and then use the sibling rule to secure a place for child #2? It could save you ~€24K (assuming you were planning to send child #2 from 3rd class @ €6K per year). I know this might be seen as treating your kids differently, but if your main reason for doing this is just to secure a place in the secondary school, why would you pay on the double to achieve it?
> 
> ...



Thanks Ger, thats an idea i'd not thought of and a good one. 

I also read your attached thread on your struggle to put a financial plan in place to pay all the different fees.  Its an eye opener when you see the road ahead and theres more then 1 child to consider and someone loses their job or other financial hardship rears its head. Its a long term commitment when you start on this road. I hadn't considered that. well done tho you'r on the home stretch now!


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## Ger1966 (5 Dec 2019)

Thanks Anntionette.

I'm not really on the home stretch yet .... there's still 3rd level to fund, but that's cheaper than 2nd level.

As an aside, I sometimes ask myself "Was it worth it?" and I can't honestly say it was. I can't help but think that my pension fund would be a lot bigger if I didn't have to pay secondary school fees. Without doubt, our kids have made lovely friends, but I'm sure they'd have met equally as nice kids irrespective of the school they went to.  Are they "academically smarter" as a result of their time in a private secondary school? I don't know!  At the end of the day, when the examiner is marking their Leaving Cert paper he/she doesn't know whether the student went to a €6K per year school or a public school. They're marked on the answers that they submit and not on the "school tie" they're wearing .... and that's a good thing.


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## misemoi (5 Dec 2019)

Interesting that your fil mentioned that they made the choice between private school and a potential second property. This is what's in my mind. Having rented for years while deciding where to settle, I'm of the belief that while my parents sacrificed for our third level, that for my kids a property or a large contribution to one will be required. I want them to have the choice at least to stay in Dublin. So I'd make the opposite choice of allocation of our income at the moment. Knowing that friends can be made at 3rd level too, and that if you're the type of person who can leverage contacts then you will do that anyway. Also in the knowledge that one of my children will probably want to work in a not very well paid field. It's a minefield!


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## dereko1969 (5 Dec 2019)

I recently went to a Boot Camp held in St Mary's Rathmines for a few months and was surprised at how grubby the changing rooms and facilities were given the cost of going to school there. I suppose that's teenage boys and keeping the place in decent nick would be tricky but it was in worse nick than my own ordinary secondary school.
Having gone to that ordinary school I don't think too much of the old school tie helping you out with contacts, maybe it will but it won't keep you in a job if you're not up to it, maybe back in the day but not now.
Depending on where you live, Templeogue or Coláiste Éanna (my old school) might be better bets, no idea what Synge Street is like now.
Nothing I've heard about St Marys would indicate it's any better than Terenure or High School which I presume would be at similar cost levels, or Gonzaga, Michaels, St Andrews which presumably would be more - though I'm totally out of touch.
Where do you live?


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