# Missing A.S.U. phone recordings



## TrackerThieves (10 Jan 2018)

I have an ongoing tracker case with EBS/AIB which has a number of other issues. I did a Subject access request back in December 2017 on my mortgage account.
From this i identified 14 possible calls i was interested in getting recordings of. I filled out a form with exact dates and times identified in the documents received.  I recieved a CD containing 5 calls with a letter stating "Please find enclosed a CD with the calls you requested". When i questioned with the S.A.R.S. team where the missing calls where they, i was told there's no record of them or they just aren't there and passed the blame to the A.S.U. as they put the CD together. I asked them to follow up to where they were.

I received a registered letter this week stating "In relation to your initial request and the 5 calls you received on CD, we have received confirmation that these are the only calls that can be located on our system in relation to the 14 you requested."

After checking my documents again 6 of the missing 9 are definitely phonecalls between myself and an arrears support unit member and all where between dates in 2015-2016, the other 3 i am not to sure if they were calls or other correspondence. So is possible that i am only missing 6.

This is taken from the code of conduct on mortgage arrears
63.      A lender must maintain records of all communications with borrowers in mortgage arrears and in pre-arrears. Such records must be readily accessible and capable of being reproduced in legible form and in a timely manner. Such records may include contemporaneous notes of meetings.
64.      A lender must maintain recordings of all Arrears Support Unit telephone calls made to or from a borrower in relation to his/her arrears or pre-arrears.
65.      All records required by, and demonstrating compliance with this Code, must be retained by the lender for six years. In addition, all records relating to a borrower must be retained for six years from the date the relationship with the borrower ends.

Is it Acceptable that these calls are not available and what can be done?
Has anyone had similar experiences?


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## EbsLoannotrafor (11 Jan 2018)

Yes , I requested back ( ebs) when I went from tracker to  fixed  and when I told I had no tracker option so had to fix . Conveniently these key calls can’t be found( it was a number of years ago ) but I had the date etc . Unacceptable that more recent 2015 -2016 are missing , can this be reported to the regulator??


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## maunie (11 Jan 2018)

This makes very interesting reading. I'm BOI and have requested my calls log from arrears team. I've only requested it last week so I'm not very intrigued as to what will happen..


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## IdesofMarch (12 Jan 2018)

TrackerThieves said:


> I have an ongoing tracker case with EBS/AIB which has a number of other issues. I did a Subject access request back in December 2017 on my mortgage account.
> From this i identified 14 possible calls i was interested in getting recordings of. I filled out a form with exact dates and times identified in the documents received.  I recieved a CD containing 5 calls with a letter stating "Please find enclosed a CD with the calls you requested". When i questioned with the S.A.R.S. team where the missing calls where they, i was told there's no record of them or they just aren't there and passed the blame to the A.S.U. as they put the CD together. I asked them to follow up to where they were.
> 
> I received a registered letter this week stating "In relation to your initial request and the 5 calls you received on CD, we have received confirmation that these are the only calls that can be located on our system in relation to the 14 you requested."
> ...



TrackerThieves,


The Code of Conduct on Mortgage Arrears Provides that "A lender must maintain recordings of all Arrears Support Unit telephone calls made to or from a borrower in relation to his/her arrears or pre-arrears." and that "All records required by, and demonstrating compliance with this Code, must be retained by the lender for six years. In addition, all records relating to a borrower must be retained for six years from the date the relationship with the borrower ends."

If the Bank insist that they cannot retrieve the particular telephone conversations that you require, make a complaint to the Central Bank of Ireland in relation to this. On another front, get your telephone or mobile telephone service provider to provide a log of your calls on the particular dates in question, this will show that you were in fact in contact with the EBS.


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## IdesofMarch (12 Jan 2018)

EbsLoanototrafor said:


> Yes , I requested back ( ebs) when I went from tracker to  fixed  and when I told I had no tracker option so had to fix . Conveniently these key calls can’t be found( it was a number of years ago ) but I had the date etc . Unacceptable that more recent 2015 -2016 are missing , can this be reported to the regulator??




see above post, provisions 61 to 65 of the CCMA 2013 refers.


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## maunie (12 Jan 2018)

Very interesting. Another way the banks are trying to wrong us


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## TrackerThieves (16 Jan 2018)

at the min there are 2 calls confirmed as not available/missing and being 2 disputed, They say they were not calls but documents i have they are clearly calls.  I have spent the week going through my documents and have identified a number of other calls to request and i expect some of these will not be available/missing too.

on a side note has anyone ever been contacted by an Arrears support member from a mobile number and should this have ever happened?


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## MrEarl (17 Jan 2018)

maunie said:


> Very interesting. Another way the banks are trying to wrong us



To be fair, the calls may have been deleted by accident, there's nothing to prove that these calls have been deliberately erased ... none of us are perfect after all 

That said, in the absence of the call recording having been made available, I expect that the borrower's word will have to be accepted as to what was said on the call.


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## IdesofMarch (17 Jan 2018)

MrEarl said:


> To be fair, the calls may have been deleted by accident, there's nothing to prove that these calls have been deliberately erased ... none of us are perfect after all
> 
> That said, in the absence of the call recording having been made available, I expect that the borrower's word will have to be accepted as to what was said on the call.



Mr Earl, you have highlighted the knub of the issue, if a debtor can prove a call was made on a particular date or time and the bank or F.I. cannot retrieve same (as required by CCMA), the alleged contents of the call must favour the borrower's account of same.


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## MrEarl (18 Jan 2018)

IdesofMarch said:


> Mr Earl, you have highlighted the knub of the issue...



One does one's best


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## maunie (18 Jan 2018)

I am Anxious about getting my recordings of my calls from arrears team in BOI
I've a feeling some of mine will strangely disappear also.,
For the record.. I missed one payment in 10 years


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## TrackerThieves (19 Jan 2018)

MrEarl said:


> To be fair, the calls may have been deleted by accident, there's nothing to prove that these calls have been deliberately erased ... none of us are perfect after all


I strongly suspect it has been on purpose, Would like to discuss with Padraic and get confirmation on a number of things first



IdesofMarch said:


> Mr Earl, you have highlighted the knub of the issue, if a debtor can prove a call was made on a particular date or time and the bank or F.I. cannot retrieve same (as required by CCMA), the alleged contents of the call must favour the borrower's account of same.


Is this in the code of conduct or some sort of legal reverence?


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## maunie (19 Jan 2018)

While I'm BOI customer I'd like to share what happened to me so far
I typed a letter to data protection and asked them to forward my info on my arrears of my mortgage 
Yest my letter was returned to me saying I didn't sign my letter..
A delay tactics me thinks


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## MrEarl (19 Jan 2018)

maunie said:


> While I'm BOI customer I'd like to share what happened to me so far
> I typed a letter to data protection and asked them to forward my info on my arrears of my mortgage
> Yest my letter was returned to me saying I didn't sign my letter..
> A delay tactics me thinks



Some of the conspiracy theories are just incredible....

An unsigned instruction doesn't get acted upon, and rightly so. There is a very long list of things that we can all point to the Banks as doing, or having done, wrong.  However, this isn't one of them.

Perhaps you should ask yourself if the delay has been caused by you not signing your own letter ? 


.


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## Palerider (19 Jan 2018)

maunie said:


> While I'm BOI customer I'd like to share what happened to me so far
> I typed a letter to data protection and asked them to forward my info on my arrears of my mortgage
> Yest my letter was returned to me saying I didn't sign my letter..
> A delay tactics me thinks



What have we become, who do we blame when there is nobody else to blame except ourselves.


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## maunie (19 Jan 2018)

Palerider said:


> What have we become, who do we blame when there is nobody else to blame except ourselves.


Just to clarify
Every time I wrote to the tracker redress about my case I never once signed a typed letter. I simply typed a letter and put my name on the bottom of it and there was never an issue with it but thanks for your thoughts


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## TrackerThieves (26 Jan 2018)

Just an update, after making some further phone recording requests, I have received a number of new calls but the the number of missing calls has now increased. There were also 3 calls made by an A.S.U. case manager that were made on a system he knew wasn't been recorded, these are not included the figures below. all requested calls were over a 2 year time period and 5/6 missing and 3 non recorded calls took place in the same 9 month period.
Recieved = 13
Missing = 5
Disputed = 1


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## TrackerThieves (28 Dec 2018)

The number of missing call recordings confirmed missing is now 23 (all calls are from a 9 month period from 2014-2015)
13 with the EBS arrears support unit - 5 with me, 5 with Padraic Kissane and 3 with a third party called Moneybloom
10 with AIB RCMU department - 4 with me and 6 were with Moneybloom.

I have a separate EBS document with details and notes of each call. I now have records of about 10 AIB calls that they spent months telling me there were no records of. After getting information from a different department that these calls existed, they have now provided dates and notes but still no recordings. There's also missing documents and records requested in relation to both accounts. There's also no records of documents from a 2008 tracker mortgage application. There are also missing records and documents from 2008 for another EBS customers subject access request that was done in relation to our tracker case. As there were so many requests that they could not provide the sar's team took it upon them selves to make a complaint on my behalf.

I am in the process of taking cases with both the data commissioner and the FSO.
There is also a number of other more serious issues during this same period that I will be asking the FSO to investigate.


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## cmalone (28 Dec 2018)

Similar issue with bank of ireland. They claimed data protection access request must state times/ dates etc of calls. Provided this and no response.

Complained to Data Protection Commissioner and they initially claimed that no call records and records of any calls and follow up was by way of temporary notes/ post its/ etc.

 when I further complained - and advise ODPC that call centre staff always referred to my previous calls via the bank’s system, the bank mysteriously ‘found’ over 160 calls - 2 years later !

Don’t trust or accept anything the bank says... they are just denying basic records in an attempt to frustrate your valid queries on account. Risk that records held will be altered / deleted by the time they eventually are forced to produce by the Data Protection Commissioner. 

Multiple current active cases against the bank by the ODPC.


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## moneymakeover (28 Dec 2018)

I also was unable to retrieve phone calls from Bank of Ireland

I know the exact time of the call

It's mentioned in the notes of the SAR

But they say cannot be retrieved


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## cmalone (29 Dec 2018)

How old are the BOI calls ?

It depends who you ask at the bank. I got multiple written and phone denials from different people claiming to represent the bank
 - branch manager,
- regional area manager
- consumer  Affairs (FSPO Team),
- customer complaints team
-  Data Access Request Team, etc.

Reported to Data Protection Commissioner and similar denials were made by the bank. A year later (after a second ODPC investigator was assigned to case) and over 160 call recordings have been produced.  The bank’s ivs/ Ivr system records calls via your mobile / telephone number. Mystery how a regulated bank could deny any calls exist and then produce so many ...

The bank’s call centre staff (over 30 month period of denial) confirmed in the evidence that previous calls were recorded and who I spoke with on each call. The staff apologied for the ‘unorthodox conduct’ of management...

The Data Protection Commissioner’s Office has multiple related investigation cases ongoing against BOI.


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## TrackerThieves (14 Jun 2019)

EBS
Second EBS complaint has completed. This was actually initiated by the Sar's team in relation to missing ASU recordings. 5 calls that were missing for 18 months were found during this provess but others that had  not been requested were found to be missing. 11 asu recordings still outstanding and confirmed missing. 

AIB
There were another 10-12 AIB rcmu call recordings from a similar period and involving the same 3rd party as some of the missing ebs calls. These had been specifically requested and repeatedly denied that they were even on record, after exhausting all avenues for months with the Sar's team, I was then informed that they were on record from a different department and provided with a log of correspondence. The only item from this log they could provide was a signed 3rd party declaration with an apology for not providing previously all calls, everything else was unavailable. Official complaint ongoing last number of months and only spoke with someone very recently and calls could still not be found. However last week I received a final letter in relation to this complaint and calls have been found and will be posted out shortly.


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## TrackerThieves (14 Jun 2019)

Although my case was initially only a tracker case, documents showed a number of other issues and I now have a couple of separate cases. I have been dealing with AIB/EBS in relation to these for the past few years and I have become used to dealing with them. I would advise anyone facing similar issues or is taking FSPO or DPC cases to do the following. 

Make all data requests by letter or by e-mail. 
Scan all replies or any other letters sent or received. Camscanner is excellent for doing this. Take screenshots of e-mails if making data requests by email, you may need to send them later. 
I would advise not making requests for different topics in the same e-mail. It will be clearer and easier to provide documentary evidence later when requested by the FSPO or DPC or anyone else. 
If a data request is ignored or reply is vague, request again and follow up till answered satisfactorily. 
Set up a Dropbox acount and start saving all documents as soon as you receive them. Put them in easy to find folders. A document that seems unimportant now may become important later. 
Be patient and expect delays but at the same time don't let things go


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