# Architect Cost for Protected Building Work.



## Stevoster (7 Jun 2011)

Hi there,

First of all I have to say that the sticky about questions to ask your architect is brilliant.

Now, I didn't want to hijack the earlier post on architect cost so started new one - apologies for any duplication here. I need to get some work done on a protected building (basically it was converted to two apartments and I want to recombine it to family home). I called a conservation architect and was told his fee would be 12.5% of the cost of the building work.

Is pricing in this manner normal? It strikes me that there is a disincentive on his part to keep costs down, the more it costs the more he gets paid. Secondly does this sound reasonable feewise? Depending on how sticky teh planners are I reckon it is a small enough job (maybe 40k). 
I know exactly what I want done so creative input isn't really a feature so I would be paying 5k to liaise with planning, select appropriate materials and handle the contractors. Am I missing something here? Planners said I don't strictly need a conservation architect but it would help my case. 

As an aside (and I don't want to rock any boats here) - if I do my research into materials and use regular contractors for non specialise work like, say, removing a new partition wall and specialist contractor for something like cornice replication can I (in theory) do this myself? Given my limited building experience I'm guessing not but.... would love to get an opinion.

Thanks,
Stevo.


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## Peter Sweeny (7 Jun 2011)

You should be able to get a more competitive rate then 12.5% plus VAT, however make sure your professional has experience with this type of structure. Paying 12.5% for an experience professional is better then paying c.5% for a professional who learning the finer points of conservation as he goes.


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## onq (7 Jun 2011)

This is a listed building.

Listing means inter alia that otherwise exempted work isn't exempted.
Therefore you will need your "conservation architect" to obtain planning permission.

Having jumped through the hoops on obtaining planning permission on several protected buildings over the past 20 years it takes far, far longer than with a conventional application, including; -

- the photographic record
- the justification for the work and 
- the method statement

The last job I did like that dragged on over 18 months and included

- liaisons with the planners
- discussions with the neighbours
- further information, including 1/10 scale drawings of interiors
- clarification of further information
- you name it.

Not knowing what is involved can mean you fail to value the work that is required but I'd say 12.5% of a €40K job is well undervalued.

=============================

Some people misunderstand the nature of the percentage fee calculation.
Reduce the amount of work and the fee drops commensurately.
It works for and against the professional.

But on small works, with the hugely increased liability of having to oversee a cheap tender builder who could be a total chancer, plus negotiate a permission, and certify, well, I would be very wary of the service you'd be getting for anything under 12.5%.

My real world experience is that the people who might sympathize with you and most begrudge the €5K fee for all this work spanning several months could would see no irony in themselves being on €120K per annum - i.e. earning _twice_ that _per month_ themselves, for relatively little responsibility.

=============================

A word on not engaging a professional.
Self-building on a Protected Structure could seriously affect the value of the building if it goes wrong.
Read all of Peter Sweeny's post above, not just the first line, because he talks a lot of sense.


ONQ.


[broken link removed]

           All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be           relied                      upon                                                                                                                 as   a                 defence       or                support    -            in               and       of                    itself     -                                should                           legal                              action                  be                              taken.
           Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to                    advise        in                                                                                                                        Real          Life          with               rights      to                      inspect             and                   issue                             reports             on                the                                           matters            at                             hand.


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## Stevoster (8 Jun 2011)

Thanks guys. Very much appreciate the replies. Might see if I can somehow align the interests in cost control by other measures but might not be so bad if it gets the job done. Sounds considerably messier than I had thought! Cheers.

Starting to get worried now about some work that has already been done on the house. Can't find any planning applications for the building at all but there is a modern looking kitchen extension (possibly more recent than 1963) and an attic conversion (definitely post 1963). House changed hands last in 1970s. Would I be able to see from the deeds / particulars of sale if this work was done subsequently? 

If the EA gets back and says they were all done pre 1963 (or pre the building getting protected status) how the Dickens can I verify this? Or more importantly, how can planners verify (or dispute) this? I don't want to buy something that could land me in trouble before I so much as hammer a nail! Any tips? 

Cheers,
Steve.


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## onq (8 Jun 2011)

Plenty of tips Steve, but there is only so much advice I can offer online.
The difficulty is that some of this may be privy matters which are normally kept confidential and some are simply too particular to the site.

For example I recently had to supply proof to a planning authority that the house a client had bought

(i) had been split into 3 no. Units pre-'63 and
(ii) had the benefit of the encroachment of the rear yard onto what seemed to be a private right of way for more than twenty years previously.

Not easy and it took a lot of head scratching before I developed a method that was acceptable to all parties.

In your case the normal way to get into this is to raise queries in your solicitor's Requisitions on Title.
As part of the Requisitions on Title you should be seeking some or all of the following: -


 Opinion of Compliance with Planning Permission
 Opinion Exemption from Planning Permission
 Opinion of Compliance with Building Regulations
 Opinion of Compliance with Building Bye-Laws (if they applied that that area)
Be careful who you accept Opinions from and check the veracity of the author in each case, even going so far as to check with the relevant School of Architecture if they claim qualification or the RIAI if they claim to be Registered.
In particular find out where they were qualified and or Registered  on the date the Opinion was issued and if their PI Cover extends that far back, assuming they are still with us.
All the issues you mention really arise with the date of listing of the building  because prior to this it may have been deemed to be exempted even if  post-'63 if it was unlisted, depending on where the extension or work is located.
So its important to put a date on the work and a date on the listing and if it was prior to the Planning and Development Act 2000, the TYPE of Listing.

Hope this helps.

ONQ.


[broken link removed]

           All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be            relied                      upon                                                                                                                   as   a                 defence       or                 support    -            in               and       of                     itself     -                                should                            legal                              action                  be                               taken.
           Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to                     advise        in                                                                                                                          Real          Life          with               rights       to                      inspect             and                   issue                              reports             on                the                                            matters            at                              hand.


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## Superman (9 Jun 2011)

One way to get your interests and the architect's more aligned would be to use a set fee.
Or to fix the percentage fee at a certain stage (e.g. before the work starts on site, based on QS price etc.).


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## onq (9 Jun 2011)

While I agree with Superman in primciple, you also have to agree set out all the work stages, understand what's involved and agree a reasonable fee. otherwise people are working for nothing again.
Plus if you set a fixed fee for a defined workload, than expect to be charged extra if you later increase the workload by making changes that effect finished plans or worse, partly executed work.
With fees and costs so tight these days, and the likelihood of follow-on work so scarce, such changes can no longer simply be "absorbed" to chase goodwill.

ONQ.


[broken link removed]

           All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be             relied                      upon                                                                                                                     as   a                 defence       or                  support    -            in               and       of                      itself     -                                should                             legal                              action                  be                                taken.
           Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to                      advise        in                                                                                                                            Real          Life          with               rights        to                      inspect             and                    issue                              reports             on                 the                                            matters            at                               hand.


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