# The effective tax rate for a retired couple on €50k?



## Protocol (14 Feb 2022)

I just did the income tax return for my retired parents.
Income = 49.5k.

Guess the effective rate of tax and USC?


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## Shirazman (14 Feb 2022)

Protocol said:


> I just did the income tax return for my retired parents.
> Income = 49.5k.
> 
> Guess the effective rate of tax and USC?



Around 8%?


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## Protocol (14 Feb 2022)

You are good.

7.2%

They get:

2 full medical cards
2 free travel passes
free TV licence
35 pm / 420 pa off the electricity bill

Such a great country.

Other countries might provide more benefits, but would charge more than 7.2% tax on nearly 50k income.


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## jpd (14 Feb 2022)

Can't see many elderly people voting for that


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## Marc (14 Feb 2022)

It’s why it’s so frustrating when some people say that there is no point in paying into a pension because your tax rate in retirement is going to be 40%.

For many people it simply isn’t


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## ClubMan (14 Feb 2022)

Marc said:


> It’s why it’s so frustrating when some people say that there is no point in paying into a pension because your tax rate in retirement is going to be 40%.
> 
> For many people it simply isn’t


I presume you mean this hoary old debate?





						Key Post - My pension pot has reached €800k - should I stop contributing ?
					

I am starting a new role in a company that does not have a pension scheme. They will offer a PRSA as they are legally obliged to do but they is no offer of contribution. I am aged 51 and I have other pensions that mean that all my future income will be at the higher rate of tax. Am I correct in...



					www.askaboutmoney.com


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## Marc (14 Feb 2022)

ClubMan said:


> I presume you mean this hoary old debate?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes exactly. Just checked 26 likes on my post and interestingly no defamatory remarks from the usual AAM trolls even though it’s about tax. Maybe they were having their bridge repaired that day


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## fayf (14 Feb 2022)

Protocol said:


> You are good.
> 
> 7.2%
> 
> ...


A very interesting calculation !, and If they both have private pension income, and income stays the same, they will have an extra €200 tax credits in 2022, (personal credit & paye credits both up by €50 each for 2022)they should edge the effective rate, to just under 7%, allthough the €5 state pension increase, will eat into some of that


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## NoRegretsCoyote (14 Feb 2022)

Protocol said:


> Other countries might provide more benefits, but would charge more than 7.2% tax on nearly 50k income.


It's a while since I looked at the numbers but €50k is inside the top 25% of incomes for retired households.




Marc said:


> It’s why it’s so frustrating when some people say that there is no point in paying into a pension because your tax rate in retirement is going to be 40%.


There are maybe a few unusual cases where someone is near the SFT but this is not the case for the vast, vast majority of people. They will get relief at the higher rate and draw down at the lower rate.

Ireland's income tax system is unusually progressive, moving from zero to low to high marginal rates very quickly. This is the reason why tax-relieved pension contributions almost always make sense.


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## ClubMan (14 Feb 2022)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> There are maybe a few unusual cases where someone is near the SFT


For anybody else who, like me, didn't know what this bit of jargon meant, I think it's this...








						Lifetime limit on pension fund
					

Individuals have a maximum lifetime limit on the amount of their retirement benefits from all sources (except State pensions)...



					www.pensionsauthority.ie


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## PebbleBeach2020 (15 Feb 2022)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> It's a while since I looked at the numbers but €50k is inside the top 25% of incomes for retired households.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


But only if your combined income for retirement is under the threshold for higher tax (i.e. €70800 is it?)


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## ClubMan (15 Feb 2022)

PebbleBeach2020 said:


> But only if your combined income for retirement is under the threshold for higher tax (i.e. €70800 is it?)


Up to €73,600 for a married/civil partnership couple with two incomes?





						How your income tax is calculated
					

Tax on income you earn from employment is deducted directly from your salary (pay). Find out how this tax is calculated.




					www.citizensinformation.ie


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## NoRegretsCoyote (15 Feb 2022)

PebbleBeach2020 said:


> the threshold for higher tax (i.e. €70800 is it?)


CSO finds that mean nominal household income for a two-person household with one person over 65 is €38k.

They don't have distributions but very few will be >€70k.


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## bitethebullet (15 Feb 2022)

Am i right in saying no tax is paid for a married couple up to 36K presently? If they are over 65


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## Marc (15 Feb 2022)

Yes, if you are 66 then you have an €18,000 income tax exemption and pay no PRSI


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## ClubMan (15 Feb 2022)

Marc said:


> Yes, if you are 66 then you have an €18,000 income tax exemption and pay no PRSI


Just for reference purposes:





						Older people's tax credits and reliefs
					

Special taxation arrangements apply to people aged 65 and over. Find out more.




					www.citizensinformation.ie


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## Purple (15 Feb 2022)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> CSO finds that mean nominal household income for a two-person household with one person over 65 is €38k.
> 
> They don't have distributions but very few will be >€70k.


Wow, €700 a week with no mortgage, a medical card, free travel etc. That's a very comfortable income.


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## noproblem (15 Feb 2022)

Brilliant, we must be the best country in Ireland


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## 50andOut (15 Feb 2022)

I always have used this as a reference to see a rough idea of expected average income against various levels of my potential ARF Value:









						But Pensions Get Heavily Taxed in Retirement, Right?...Wrong! - The Pension Store
					

Did You Decide Against Starting A Pension Because of The Income Tax You Pay in Retirement? The Actual Amount You Would Pay Is Way Less Than You Think.




					www.thepensionstore.ie


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## jpd (15 Feb 2022)

noproblem said:


> Brilliant, we must be the best country in Ireland


I presume young(er) people don't use Askaboutmoney - or else we might be in trouble


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## Ndiddy (15 Feb 2022)

Marc said:


> It’s why it’s so frustrating when some people say that there is no point in paying into a pension because your tax rate in retirement is going to be 40%.
> 
> For many people it simply isn’t


Also frustrating when the often-repeated argument gets pulled out that when someone is "young", they should solely concentrate on saving for a deposit/pay down mortgage and wait to fund pensions later when more comfortable.  Definitely seeing the snowball benefits now of having saved consistently in a pension even on 20% rate for the last 15 years!


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## Shirazman (15 Feb 2022)

Protocol said:


> They get:
> 
> 2 full medical cards
> 2 free travel passes
> ...



Let's be fair to them:-  they probably have to pay a fair whack of LPT on their bijou detatched five bedroom house somewhere in the leafy suburbs!


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## Purple (15 Feb 2022)

Ndiddy said:


> Definitely seeing the snowball benefits now of having saved consistently in a pension even on 20% rate for the last 15 years!


We're seeing the massive growth in Stock Markets due to quantitative easing over the last decade. My pension fund value about doubled during that time.


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## Deiseblue (15 Feb 2022)

Shirazman said:


> Let's be fair to them:-  they probably have to pay a fair whack of LPT on their bijou detatched five bedroom house somewhere in the leafy suburbs!


It seems decidedly unfair that despite looking forward to holidays in New York , Cadiz , Seville , Porto and Heidelberg in the coming year that will keep us out of the country for 5 months that we get no rebate on LPT tax !!!
As pensioners on DB pensions plus contributory old age pensions this is an outrage !
Seriously though it really is a great country for some pensioners and we are extremely lucky and grateful.


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## Shirazman (15 Feb 2022)

Deiseblue said:


> It seems decidedly unfair that despite looking forward to holidays in New York , Cadiz , Seville , Porto and Heidelberg in the coming year that will keep us out of the country for 5 months that we get no rebate on LPT tax !!!
> As pensioners on DB pensions plus contributory old age pensions this is an outrage !



It's jaw dropping that Motormouth Doherty hasn't yet promised to refund LPT - plus interest -  to every homeowner over the age of 55!    

Talk about a missed opportunity!


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## noproblem (16 Feb 2022)

jpd said:


> I presume young(er) people don't use Askaboutmoney - or else we might be in trouble


I think you're wrong with that presumption. I would have thought that the majority of people using AAM were young people, very few over 85'ish using it


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## Protocol (16 Feb 2022)

What really gets me going is that the State/taxpayer gives 35 pm / 420 pa off the elec bill of my parents, even though they have 500k in financial assets!!!

We charge them too little tax, and then we give them cash off their bills, even though they have half a million in financial assets!!!

Such a country.

And yet if you read the media, you think these people are "vulnerable elderly"!!!!


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## jpd (16 Feb 2022)

And another € 200 to come in a few weeks - honestly, you couldn't make it up - no one would believe you.


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## Purple (16 Feb 2022)

I'm glad to see more people noticing how cossetted, privileged and entitled the elderly are but most of all it's their ingratitude that is most galling.


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## Shirazman (16 Feb 2022)

Protocol said:


> What really gets me going is that the State/taxpayer gives 35 pm / 420 pa off the elec bill of my parents, even though they have 500k in financial assets!!!
> 
> We charge them too little tax, and then we give them cash off their bills, even though they have half a million in financial assets!!!
> 
> ...



Yep.  

Isn't it bizzare that a State that pays incessant lip service to the principle of "equality" is quite happy to discriminate legislatively in favour of the elderly?

Not to mention the media who appear to revel in the impression that every elderly person is a frail, penniless 90 year old who can't walk 12 paces without a zimmerframe and is doubly incontinent (although they prefer not to focus on that bit!)

And then, to add insult to injury, if they make it to 100 years of age - at which point they have parasited off the rest of us for 35 years, if not longer! - the buggers get a tax-free present of €2,500 from the President!


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## noproblem (16 Feb 2022)

Sad to read what children think of their parents in their final years. One thing's for sure, whatever they have, or they get, they've bloody well earned it. Pitiful though to see the thoughts of some that they've reared.


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## Purple (16 Feb 2022)

noproblem said:


> Sad to read what children think of their parents in their final years.


How do you know that is what people think of their parents?
Mine are in their 70's and costing the State a fortune in medical costs but they are grateful for all the hand-out's they get. They have the free travel but they don't use it. When they are visiting expensive restaurants they use a taxi. If they are not drinking they use one of their expensive cars.

Anyway, if it was their final years there wouldn't be a problem but they hang around for decades!



noproblem said:


> One thing's for sure, whatever they have, or they get, they've bloody well earned it.


How do you know they did? There was more tax evasion in the 70's and 80's and probably more welfare fraud. There was far more corruption and lots of them got to buy their Council house at a massive discount.


noproblem said:


> Pitiful though to see the thoughts of some that they've reared.


I've no real problem with all the hand-out's and the unearned pensions that retirees get. I'd just like them to say thanks once in a while. A pit of gratitude goes a long way.

Here's an example; If you are a pensioner I suggest the next time you have your dinner delivered by some poor young fella on a bike with a deliveroo bag on his back you should apologise for stealing his future to pay for your retirement and thank him with a good tip from your unearned pension...

Then apologise again because you wouldn't increase the retirement age so he won't get a State pension...

Then show him your house and apologise again because your generation screwed things up so badly that he's never own a house...

If it's raining you can also apologise for ignoring Climate Change until it was too late...

Etc...


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## Shirazman (16 Feb 2022)

noproblem said:


> Sad to read what children think of their parents in their final years. One thing's for sure, whatever they have, or they get, they've bloody well earned it. Pitiful though to see the thoughts of some that they've reared.



As the author of some of the comments that you're criticising, permit me to point out that I'm an OAP with far too much money for my needs plus a couple of hard working kids in their mid-30s who may never own their own home.       In the next few years I'm going to get a "free" Medical Card although I have private healthcare, which my kids can't afford (so we pay it for them).

And I haven't "bloody well earned my wealth" - I inherited most of it from the sale of my hard-working parents' home after their death.   And I am not alone - my siblings, plus quite a few of our long-standing friends are exactly the same situation.


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## Deiseblue (16 Feb 2022)

I worked in a furniture factory specialising in the manufacture of TV cabinets where half the workforce were missing a finger or two or the most common injury finger tips , the only plus was that you left work high on the fumes of French Polish !
I then worked in a brewery on a Guinness bottling line where bottles regularly shattered showering us with glass , again there was a saving grace as we got free drink.
Following that I worked in a Flour Mills where my job as an electrician's helper was to note the voltage of motors that were as high as 50 feet from the ground without a safety harness.
Following that I worked in the intensive heat of tomato glasshouses which was backbreaking,  miserable work.
Finally I got a more comfortable,  less honest job in the Bank of Ireland.
I am grateful to have a decent occupational pension plus the contributory OAP but equally I feel like most of my mates who worked similar jobs that we are totally worth it .


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## Purple (16 Feb 2022)

I started working part time in a factory when I was 14, full time at 17. I worked 65 hours, over six and a half day a week. I’ve had the top of my finger cut off and sewn back on plus many other injuries. I still think young people have it harder today and working hard doesn’t mean you paid for your State pension.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (16 Feb 2022)

Shirazman said:


> I'm an OAP with far too much money for my needs plus a couple of hard working kids in their mid-30s who may never own their own home.  In the next few years I'm going to get a "free" Medical Card although I have private healthcare, which my kids can't afford (so we pay it for them).


My own parents a similar age. They and their friends all worked hard and paid double-digit mortgage rates in their 20s and 30s of course, paying a lot of tax along the way too.

But the massive increase in house prices and decline in rates in the 90s saw them all pay off mortgages easily by age fifty, then as sixty hit they all started to retire many with DB pensions. None of them worked full-time past 63, some dip their toe back in with part-time work here and there.

They have the guts of 20 years life expectancy still - and fair play to them - but their effective tax rate really is very low given their means, and the household benefits package that kicks in at 70 is ridiculous and completely superfluous to their needs. 

I don't complain about my own lot, but I have friends in their 30s who pay 70% of their gross income in mortgage, childcare, tax, pension contributions, and health insurance combined. 

Something is not equitable here.


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## Protocol (16 Feb 2022)

noproblem said:


> Sad to read what children think of their parents in their final years. One thing's for sure, whatever they have, or they get, they've bloody well earned it. Pitiful though to see the thoughts of some that they've reared.



I fully acknowledge what my parents and their generation faced (born approx 1940-1950):

my mother studied for the LC by candlelight in late 50s
she had to pay to train to be a nurse - I repeat, the apprentice nurse *paid *to receive training
high interest rates on mortgages in 1970 and 1980s
high income tax rates in late 70s, into 80s

However, I still make the point that given the benefits they receive *now*, paying 7.2% direct income tax on 49.5k is too low *now*, we can't as a society afford that now.

Does any other country charge such low direct tax, and then pay 35pm of elec bill, even though the people have 500k financial assets?

*I would love if we could afford this now, but we can't.*

We have a large public debt, and okay the public debt interest bill is not too bad, but we are living in a slowly ageing society, with increasing healthcare and pension and LT care costs.

I accept that it is politically very difficult to remove these benefits:

GP card for all over 70
HBP for all over 70: free TV licence, 35 pm off elec
Free travel pass for all over 66
Medical card for many over 70, softer means test than under 70

However, we could at least charge them a bit more income tax, that is my suggestion.


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## ClubMan (16 Feb 2022)

Some people seem keen to have elderly taxation policy driven by a single anecdotal example where a (possibly unusually) well off couple paid c. 8% overall. Sigh...


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## Protocol (16 Feb 2022)

There are tens of thousands of people like this.


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## ClubMan (16 Feb 2022)

Protocol said:


> There are tens of thousands of people like this.


Any data to support that assertion?
And are they all paying only 8% tax?


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## fayf (16 Feb 2022)

I


ClubMan said:


> Some people seem keen to have elderly taxation policy driven by a single anecdotal example where a (possibly unusually) well off couple paid c. 8% overall. Sigh...


fully agree, the average income and assets of pensioners, across the country, would on average, be a lot lower, then the very selective examples given. Yes, likely to be  tens of thousands like it, but hundreads of thousands - NOT like these examples.

If you have worked and contributed to the social welfare system over several decades, you usually ( depends on contributions)get a non means tested contributory state pension of about 14 k a year. Other private pensions, were saved by those people(by their choice) over many years for non DB workers at least.

Every individual in the state can earn 18k a year free of PAYE, so this also applies to pensioners, and there is zero logic here, that that should change for the pensioner demographic, especially as the state pension is taxable income for pensioners, along with any other income they have.

PRSI stops when you reach 66, that knocks off 4% of the PAYE income portion - of pensioners, overall tax rate. Again here, there is zero logic to say that this should change, as the PRSI contribution clock stops, just after 65, a traditional retirement age.

As for the household package, i agree there is a valid arguement, for means testing that going forward. Its a pittance when you look at the overall big picture, but should probably be looked at.

Medical card at 70, is not automatic,(GP card is) that was changed years ago, it is means tested, and those who qualify have to have an income of under 55k (including assessment of savings, first 72k is disregarded for a couple), this being queried, is really, beyond belief.









						Medical card for over 70s
					

If you are 70 or over you may qualify for a medical card based on your income.




					www2.hse.ie


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## fayf (17 Feb 2022)

_Ireland overall effective tax rates for 2002, 2012 & 2022, they have dropped by an average of about 5% for all double income couples earning more than 30k per year. However with inflation over 20 years,  it has of course gone up, in real terms.
Singling out pensioners as a scapegoat, is illogical, and its not the problem. Assuming, there is a problem, then perhaps all tax rates, have to go up, for everyone, across the board.






						Effective Tax Rates after Budget 2022 and Why Ireland remains a low tax country | Social Justice Ireland
					

Central to a thorough understanding of income taxation in Ireland are effective tax rates. These rates are calculated by comparing the total amount of…




					www.socialjustice.ie
				



_


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## ClubMan (17 Feb 2022)

To be fair, I wouldn't put too much store in what a biased lobby group like Social Justice Ireland have to say. I'd prefer more objective data/info.


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## fayf (17 Feb 2022)

Just a google lookup, to see effective tax rates overtime, i have no affiliation to any lobby group !

In any event, the point is, effective rates, are very similar,  apart from the 4 % PRSI part, for everyone, if you are 27 or 77 years old. 

Some have argued pensioners pay too little tax, pensioners pay quite similar effective rates to everyone else, when PRSI is taken out, and people who are working, who are able to max pension contributions, would have lower than average, effective rates than someone who is not contributing.


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## Protocol (17 Feb 2022)

ClubMan said:


> Any data to support that assertion?
> And are they all paying only 8% tax?




Before I go looking for data, my parents are completely average and typical: a retired teacher and a retired housewife.

There are thousands upon thousands of them.

I live here, I know there are thousands upon thousands of people like this.

The more substantive issue is: can we as a society afford to charge such low direct tax rates, while being so generous with benefits?

I think the answer is no.

SF think the answer is yes.

I don't propose to cut any benefit, for pragmatic political reasons.

I propose to charge a bit more income tax (easier to implement).


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## Protocol (17 Feb 2022)

fayf said:


> Just a google lookup, to see effective tax rates overtime, i have no affiliation to any lobby group !
> 
> In any event, the point is, effective rates, are very similar,  apart from the 4 % PRSI part, for everyone, if you are 27 or 77 years old.
> 
> Some have argued pensioners pay too little tax, pensioners pay quite similar effective rates to everyone else, when PRSI is taken out, and people who are working, who are able to max pension contributions, would have lower than average, effective rates than someone who is not contributing.



Yes, other than the PRSI, there are three differences:

(1) 18k / 36k income tax exemption - I suggest we abolish this
(2) age tax credit - I suggest we abolish this
(3) don't have to pay DIRT - I suggest we abolish this


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## ClubMan (17 Feb 2022)

Protocol said:


> Before I go looking for data ... There are thousands upon thousands of them.


Ok, so all anecdotal so? Thanks for clarifying.


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## ClubMan (17 Feb 2022)

Protocol said:


> (2) age tax credit - I suggest we abolish this
> (3) don't have to pay DIRT - I suggest we abolish this


The whole €240/€490 and DIRT on basically nothing?
That should pay off the national debt in no time.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (17 Feb 2022)

ClubMan said:


> by a single anecdotal example


You can look up the numbers yourself if you like.

A well-off couple like this pays a 7% effective tax rate.

€70k per annum is above average household income even for a working age household and nearly double what is typical for a retired household.

When you take into account asset position - almost always a mortgage paid off - this is a very financially comfortable household.

They pay lower tax simply because of their age, and at 70 start getting household benefits that they don't need.

It's not equitable, not least because the people paying for it today won't be able to get the same treatment in 30 years due to population ageing.


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## Purple (17 Feb 2022)

Protocol said:


> Yes, other than the PRSI, there are three differences:
> 
> (1) 18k / 36k income tax exemption - I suggest we abolish this
> (2) age tax credit - I suggest we abolish this
> (3) don't have to pay DIRT - I suggest we abolish this


And given that the vast majority of us haven't paid, or won't pay, enough PRSI during their working life to come anywhere near funding their State Pension the retired should continue to pay full PRSI.


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## fayf (17 Feb 2022)

Protocol said:


> Yes, other than the PRSI, there are three differences:
> 
> (1) 18k / 36k income tax exemption - I suggest we abolish this
> (2) age tax credit - I suggest we abolish this
> (3) don't have to pay DIRT - I suggest we abolish this


All income tax payers, have an income tax exemption limit up to 18k/36k, so abolishing that, will impact most young workers, and some partime workers, many of whom, are currently outside the income tax net, as they earn under 18k per annum. Its not an excessively high amount, its less then the minimum wage, and its globally common,  to have a low floor exemption amount, and its extremely unlikely this will be changing. 

Tax policy, cannot cherrypick certain demographics, because some people find their effective rate, offensive. Some of the examples are at the perfect cusp of just under certain limits, and the fact their mortages is paid off has nothing to with tax policy. 

There is certainly a good arguement to be made on the DIRT exemption,  there is a certain logic to that, particularly those who have substantial amounts. Same for the household package, which should probably be means tested, along the lines of the medical card limits.

Age tax credit is €490 a year, for a couple, both over 65, its not excessive, less than €5 per week per person, and it was reduced from €650 per couple, around 2011, and has stayed at the level, so actually has lost value in real terms, over those 11 years.


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## Purple (17 Feb 2022)

fayf said:


> All income tax payers, have an income tax exemption limit up to 18k/36k, so abolishing that, will impact most young workers, and some partime workers, many of whom, are currently outside the income tax net, as they earn under 18k per annum.


Most minimum wage earners live in medium to high income households. Taking them out of the tax net is not good social policy.


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## Protocol (17 Feb 2022)

fayf said:


> All income tax payers, have an income tax exemption limit up to 18k/36k, so abolishing that, will impact most young workers, and some partime workers, many of whom, are currently outside the income tax net, as they earn under 18k per annum. Its not an excessively high amount, its less then the minimum wage, and its globally common,  to have a low floor exemption amount, and its extremely unlikely this will be changing.



"All income tax payers, have an income tax exemption limit up to 18k/36k"

That is false. The exemption applies only to people aged 65 or older.






						Exemption limits
					

This page explains exemption limits on certain taxes.




					www.revenue.ie


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## Purple (18 Feb 2022)

Protocol said:


> "All income tax payers, have an income tax exemption limit up to 18k/36k"
> 
> That is false. The exemption applies only to people aged 65 or older.
> 
> ...


And once you're 66 you stop paying PRSI.


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## fayf (18 Feb 2022)

Protocol said:


> "All income tax payers, have an income tax exemption limit up to 18k/36k"
> 
> That is false. The exemption applies only to people aged 65 or older.
> 
> ...


Apologies, i didn’t see an “and” between the two criteria, i assumed it was an “either”

“
If you are not married or in a civil partnership, you are exempt from Income Tax (IT) where: 


your total income is less than the exemption limit
you are 65 or older.”

So, if this is correct it would be effectively 17k exempt, for under 65’s , as the ‘2022 tax credits of €3,400 mean, zero income tax is due up to 17k, so only gives over 65’s a €200 annual tax advantage, which is not really very significant.


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## Purple (18 Feb 2022)

fayf said:


> So, if this is correct it would be effectively 17k exempt, for under 65’s , as the ‘2022 tax credits of €3,400 mean, zero income tax is due up to 17k, so only gives over 65’s a €200 annual tax advantage, which is not really very significant.


And 2% USC, and no PRSI.


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## noproblem (18 Feb 2022)

Purple said:


> And 2% USC, and no PRSI.


We get the message Purple, fairly obvious where you stand as regards  older people, and your perception of what they should have, or not have.


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## Purple (18 Feb 2022)

noproblem said:


> We get the message Purple, fairly obvious where you stand as regards  older people, and your perception of what they should have, or not have.


I've no problem with older people but I do have a problem with treating rich people as if they are poor. That also applies to high income earners getting children's allowance, free third level fees etc.


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## Purple (18 Feb 2022)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> You can look up the numbers yourself if you like.
> 
> A well-off couple like this pays a 7% effective tax rate.
> 
> ...


My parents are well off. My father still has aa substantial income. He also has a private pension, an Irish State pension and a small UK pension. My mother gets her State pension. Their household income is well into the hundreds of thousands. They worked hard all their lives blah, blah blah and now they are very comfortable in their old age. 
I don't think they need a Medical Card, free travel and fuel allowance, lower tax rates and higher allowances etc. because they don't need them I don't think they should get them. 
I won't need that either and don't think I should get any of it. 

I think that money would be better spent elsewhere... like on child poverty or mental health services. That must make be ageist or whatever other makey-up word there is now for hurting people's feelings.


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## noproblem (18 Feb 2022)

Purple said:


> That must make be ageist or whatever other makey-up word there is now for hurting people's feelings.


You could try the word "ignorance"


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## Sophrosyne (18 Feb 2022)

@Protocol, the thread title is about effective *tax *rates for over 65s.

All other things being equal, there is very little difference in the effective rates of income tax and USC paid by couples with a combined income of €50,000, who are under or over 65 - a little over 2%.

I assume that at least one of your parents is over 70 in order to receive the Household Benefit Package, which is not means tested.


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## Purple (18 Feb 2022)

The State Pension 


Sophrosyne said:


> @Protocol, the thread title is about effective *tax *rates for over 65s.
> 
> All other things being equal, there is very little difference in the effective rates of income tax and USC paid by couples with a combined income of €50,000, who are under or over 65 - a little over 2%.
> 
> I assume that at least one of your parents is over 70 in order to receive the Household Benefit Package, which is not means tested.


The State Pension age is 66 so "Retired" is anyone who is over that age. Those over 70 are also retired for the purposes of this conversation.


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## Purple (18 Feb 2022)

noproblem said:


> You could try the word "ignorance"


No, that's not it either.
Assuming entitlement based only on your age, now that would be ignorant.


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## Sophrosyne (18 Feb 2022)

Purple said:


> The State Pension age is 66 so "Retired" is anyone who is over that age. Those over 70 are also retired for the purposes of this conversation.



Well for the purposes of clarity,  it does make a difference for people who are under 70.


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## Purple (18 Feb 2022)

Sophrosyne said:


> Well for the purposes of clarity,  it does make a difference for people who are under 70.


True.


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## Shirazman (18 Feb 2022)

noproblem said:


> You could try the word "ignorance"



An alternative, less judgemental, and far more intelligent term to use would be "well informed".


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## Purple (24 Feb 2022)

I'm happy to see some logical and rational proposals starting to creep into the discussion about how we will fund our aging population. This proposal to means test home help is fair and reasonable. Expect outrage from the most entitled group in society.


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## Shirazman (24 Feb 2022)

Purple said:


> I'm happy to see some logical and rational proposals starting to creep into the discussion about how we will fund our aging population. This proposal to means test home help is fair and reasonable. Expect outrage from the most entitled group in society.



Yep, I'd support it 100%.    The missus and I are getting so much free money from the gubberment (aka the Hard Working Irish Taxpayer - HWIT) that we'd hardly miss the few bob.

Mind you, irrespective of whether we are asked to contribute towards the cost of home help or whether the HWIT will continue to fund it for us, I reckon that there will still be a huge problem in recruiting enough people to work as home helps.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (24 Feb 2022)

Protocol said:


> You are good.
> 
> 7.2%
> 
> ...


For a lot of pensioners on €50k a year the value of the above for two people is more than the €300 a month they pay in tax. Not all, but certainly many.


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## Purple (24 Feb 2022)

Shirazman said:


> Mind you, irrespective of whether we are asked to contribute towards the cost of home help or whether the HWIT will continue to fund it for us, I reckon that there will still be a huge problem in recruiting enough people to work as home helps.


Those roles will be filled by all those immigrants, coming over here to "steal" the jobs we are unwilling to do or don't have the skills to do.


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