# Buying a diesel car nowadays



## Roro999 (27 Dec 2022)

Are many people I wonder still buying new diesel cars or are people turning they're backs on buying new ? Most car manufacturers seem to be phasing them out. I'm in the market to replace my diesel car but am wondering am I mad to buy a new diesel


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## joe sod (27 Dec 2022)

Is the new diesel car priced competitively compared to hybrids or petrol , and can you get one quickly ? I thought the supply of new cars was still very constrained due to covid and now the Ukraine war hitting component manufacturing ?


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## Roro999 (27 Dec 2022)

I would have to investigate how it's priced versus hybrids or petrol.  Sorry, by new I mean upgrading to a car post 2020 from a 161 and not span new.


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## Roro999 (27 Dec 2022)

But I guess question still applies are people shying away from diesels nowadays ?


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## MrEarl (27 Dec 2022)

Given the way the market is going, and the way that the current "Green" Government is likely to push it, I wouldn't even consider a diesel car, tbh. 

If I were to buy tomorrow, I'd most likely look for a Hybrid (petrol and battery) model, as that still gives me a good level of security regarding easy refuel etc.


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## Brendan Burgess (27 Dec 2022)

Will diesel cars have a problem with range in a few years?  As the demand drops, will petrol stations stop offering diesel? 

This will happen gradually, but I am not sure when. 

The motorways will probably be ok given that they have so many pumps in the large service areas.

And maybe the rural areas will be ok, as I assume most tractors are diesel. But do farmers have their own diesel tanks? 

Brendan


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## ClubMan (28 Dec 2022)

Brendan Burgess said:


> And maybe the rural areas will be ok, as I assume most tractors are diesel. But do farmers have their own diesel tanks?


Well, it's illegal to use "green" agricultural diesel in a non agricultural vehicle...


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## Banemore (28 Dec 2022)

My wife and I are looking at options of changing one of our two diesel cars this year comming . Not one of the garages we have been to have recommended, a petrol or electric car for our driving it was all diesel accross all companies with the exception of Toyota . Hyundai are bringing out a new diesel engine for 2025 and is in the making.We will have a mix of electrical, petrol and diesel cars going forward for all types of driving.Diesel will be required for busses and trucks so it's going no where soon .


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## joe sod (28 Dec 2022)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Will diesel cars have a problem with range in a few years?  As the demand drops, will petrol stations stop offering diesel?
> 
> This will happen gradually, but I am not sure when.
> 
> ...


Doubt it as diesel will still be needed for commercial vehicles, vans and trucks and they are not going electric (well marginally at best). I think you would be ok with a relatively small diesel car but not an SUV as that seems to be the next target of the greens however they are powered due to their size in cities , on roads and parking spaces


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## michaelm (28 Dec 2022)

Roro999 said:


> Are many people I wonder still buying new diesel cars or are people turning they're backs on buying new ?


When I come to replace my 5 year old diesel, probably in 5 years time, I expect I'll buy another new diesel.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (28 Dec 2022)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Will diesel cars have a problem with range in a few years? As the demand drops, will petrol stations stop offering diesel?


Unlikely as there's no substitute (yet) for diesel for HGVs, agricultural and most other machinery.

I checked the CSO numbers and in the first 10 months if 2022 a full 27% of new vehicles licensed were diesel only. People clearly anticipate there will still be a secondary market for diesel cars in the 2030s.


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## PebbleBeach2020 (28 Dec 2022)

Electric cars are as bad on the environment as diesel. The battery productive and disposal are disgraceful but the environmentalists and greens will never admit to that. 

Diesel cars here and I don't see purchasing habits changing anytime soon tbh


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## Zenith63 (28 Dec 2022)

PebbleBeach2020 said:


> Electric cars are as bad on the environment as diesel. The battery productive and disposal are disgraceful but the environmentalists and greens will never admit to that.


They won’t admit to it because it has been proven to be incorrect time and time again by the worlds’ scientific community. Example white paper on the subject: https://theicct.org/publication/a-g...ombustion-engine-and-electric-passenger-cars/. If you have other data from reputable sources by all means post it.



PebbleBeach2020 said:


> Diesel cars here and I don't see purchasing habits changing anytime soon tbh


7 years from Saturday will be your last opportunity to purchase a new diesel car, I’m sure you’ll be able to buy secondhand for at least 10 years beyond that, whether you’ll be allowed take it into an urban area remains to be seen.

Having said that it wouldn’t worry me too much buying a diesel today in-terms of access to fuel and resale value, five years from now I’d be much more cautious.


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## michaelm (28 Dec 2022)

Zenith63 said:


> 7 years from Saturday will be your last opportunity to purchase a new diesel car


I'd say they'll reverse engines on that one once the Greens fade away.


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## Mamamia22 (28 Dec 2022)

I intend to buy a nearly new diesel just before they become illegal and will continue to drive it until I’m 6 feet under. I’ve no intention of standing around waiting on my car to recharge to make it from A to B. 

I have no faith in the longevity of a car battery. I have heard enough scare stories to put me off. Also the fact that the electricity used to power them is mostly based on fossil fuel makes the whole thing a nonsense. I’m also not buying Solar panels as they are gone too expensive. Based on my experience with phone and laptop lithium batteries they don’t age well. If they can’t get them right for a small item like a phone then how long will they remain efficient in a car without needing to be replaced ?


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## Zenith63 (28 Dec 2022)

michaelm said:


> I'd say they'll reverse engines on that one once the Greens fade away.


It’s EU law. Thank goodness cause I think you’d be bang on otherwise.


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## Firefly (28 Dec 2022)

Mamamia22 said:


> I have no faith in the longevity of a car battery.


I buy older cars (6-8 years old) so the thoughts of having to replace the battery costing several thousand would put me right off. Which begs the question, will electric cars depreciate heavily in their latter years as their batteries come close to replacing?


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## Firefly (28 Dec 2022)

Mamamia22 said:


> I’m also not buying Solar panels as they are gone too expensive.


I was actually thinking of buying a few solar panels and diverting all the electricity generated into the national grid, to offset my emissions from my petrol/diesel


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## Mamamia22 (28 Dec 2022)

Firefly if you have the spare cash to do something like that then fair play. Most don’t. Solar is gone too expensive to install. I probably should have done it years ago but won’t now.


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## Banemore (28 Dec 2022)

As I said before Toyota were the only company not to recommend a diesel ...no longer making a diesel.But what's the thinking of the Yaris cross 1.5 petrol with a power train electric motor and 3 cylinder petrol engine with 15 years guarantee on ..it boosts 50++ mpg .Has anyone experience of this ...feed back appreciated.


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## losttheplot (28 Dec 2022)

Banemore said:


> As I said before Toyota were the only company not to recommend a diesel ...no longer making a diesel.But what's the thinking of the Yaris cross 1.5 petrol with a power train electric motor and 3 cylinder petrol engine with 15 years guarantee on ..it boosts 50++ mpg .Has anyone experience of this ...feed back appreciated.


I don't think 'company' is the word you should use. The recommendations are from individual dealers. Some will recommend what suits them rather than you.


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## bstop (28 Dec 2022)

The car industry are struggling to source enough batteries to fit to their new cars. I doubt if it will be possible to buy a new battery in 10 years time unless it comes fitted into a new car. As for recycling old batteries, that is not being planned for.


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## Frank (29 Dec 2022)

Diesel will be around for a while yet. 

Petrol doesn't work for anything above a small van, as much as Eamon Ryan won't admit it diesel medium to heavy goods vehicles are the back bone of the transport system.

So the car driver will be ok to get fuel for a while. 

They will likely be taxed out of making sense though.


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## MrEarl (29 Dec 2022)

Banemore said:


> As I said before Toyota were the only company not to recommend a diesel ....


The car sales people have a conflict of interest - almost all car manufacturers have diesel cars already made, that the need to sell; or factories kitted out to manufacture diesel cars, so they want to keep selling those vehicles for as long as they can, before they are compelled to re-tool or close those factories.


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## joe sod (29 Dec 2022)

MrEarl said:


> The car sales people have a conflict of interest - almost all car manufacturers have diesel cars already made, that the need to sell; or factories kitted out to manufacture diesel cars, so they want to keep selling those vehicles for as long as they can, before they are compelled to re-tool or close those factories.


But technology changes are driven by investment and private capital rarely by government . The car and oil industries and all the associated technology came from private industry. I doubt a government mandated technology change is actually going to happen because governments do not control the technologies. Therefore if the car industry and energy industries do not have the electric cars , electric grid and clean energy all ready to go in 2030 its just not going to happen.
The Ukraine war (destruction of car component manufacturing facilities) and the covid factory disruptions have also put a huge spanner in this 2030 timeline


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## michaelm (29 Dec 2022)

Zenith63 said:


> It’s EU law.


I think the EU effective ban is due to come into force in 2035.  I expect that we will push out our 2030 aspirations to 2035.  Methinks the rules are designed to eliminate the sale of all new fossil fuel cars, so both diesel and petrol.


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## fungie20 (29 Dec 2022)

Mamamia22 said:


> I intend to buy a nearly new diesel just before they become illegal and will continue to drive it until I’m 6 feet under. I’ve no intention of standing around waiting on my car to recharge to make it from A to B.
> 
> I have no faith in the longevity of a car battery. I have heard enough scare stories to put me off. Also the fact that the electricity used to power them is mostly based on fossil fuel makes the whole thing a nonsense. I’m also not buying Solar panels as they are gone too expensive. Based on my experience with phone and laptop lithium batteries they don’t age well. If they can’t get them right for a small item like a phone then how long will they remain efficient in a car without needing to be replaced ?



You're a not very well informed and sound like a dinosaur. Modern EV can go over 350km in one go. We live a small country perfectly set up for them. Most people charge at home overnight. Also I'd estimate approx 95%+ of journeys for the overwhelming majority of people are below 150km daily. Even if you're doing a long journey, there are DC chargers that can give hundreds of km in a matter of minutes.

The battery longevity is non issue, there are Tesla's with hundreds of thousands of km on them. Not to mention LFP batteries that have capacity for multiples more charge cycles. Newer battery cells will also blow this out of the water.

Comparing laptop batteries to EVs is comical and shoes how misinformed you are.

In terms of electricity source, that's a function of the grid, it is however getting "greener" each year. Fact is, it's possible to run a EV in purely renewable manner, it's impossible to do this for diesel and petrol vehicles.


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## MrEarl (29 Dec 2022)

joe sod said:


> But technology changes are driven by investment and private capital rarely by government . The car and oil industries and all the associated technology came from private industry....


Yes, in an open market, but that's not what we're dealing with here - various countries legislating against fossil fuels etc.

Not wanting to upset you, or anyone else reading this, but we've a global warming issue to deal with, and it ain't going away, so the motor industry (and other industries) will be forced into line, over time.


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## joe sod (30 Dec 2022)

For what its worth I have no problem with the ban on sale of new diesel cars and SUVs after 2030 but petrol is a different story. I very much doubt the technology for full electric will be up and running by 2030, therefore I foresee the continued sale of new petrol and petrol hybrids well after 2030 due to where the car industry will be at in 2030. Maybe the car industry and consumers needs to be prodded back in the direction of smaller cars in general and away from SUVs. Many of the small cars today are now larger than the family saloons from the 1990s which is obvious when you still see an odd one on the roads today


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## roker (30 Dec 2022)

fungie20 said:


> You're a not very well informed and sound like a dinosaur. Modern EV can go over 350km in one go. We live a small country perfectly set up for them. Most people charge at home overnight. Also I'd estimate approx 95%+ of journeys for the overwhelming majority of people are below 150km daily. Even if you're doing a long journey, there are DC chargers that can give hundreds of km in a matter of minutes.
> 
> The battery longevity is non issue, there are Tesla's with hundreds of thousands of km on them. Not to mention LFP batteries that have capacity for multiples more charge cycles. Newer battery cells will also blow this out of the water.
> 
> ...


I saw on the NEWS they where queuing on the garage filling station to charge up, plus the number of charging points is limited to the supply line to the total area


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## Mamamia22 (30 Dec 2022)

I’m not standing my dinosaur bones for an hour in the rain and cold midway through my journey waiting for my car to charge. I’m in a rural location and charging points are very few and far between. I’m not paying for an expensive install at home to use fossil fuel derived electricity. That would just be daft. I’ve just heard of an EV going on fire in a friends driveway. Tricky to put out apparently plus the cost of the fire brigade. Not nice during Christmas hols. The car is written off and lucky house didn’t catch fire  into the bargain. I’ll stick with the tried and trusted. Leave the virtue signalling to the young and foolish. Plenty of them about. I’m sure TSLA will recover in time.


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## Leo (3 Jan 2023)

PebbleBeach2020 said:


> Diesel cars here and I don't see purchasing habits changing anytime soon tbh


It's only 7 years since diesels made up 71% of new car sales here, that share has been dropping since and the numbers available for 2022 so far show only 27% were diesel.


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## Leo (3 Jan 2023)

Mamamia22 said:


> Solar is gone too expensive to install. I probably should have done it years ago but won’t now.


And electricity is cheaper...


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## Blackrock1 (3 Jan 2023)

Mamamia22 said:


> I intend to buy a nearly new diesel just before they become illegal and will continue to drive it until I’m 6 feet under. I’ve no intention of standing around waiting on my car to recharge to make it from A to B.
> 
> I have no faith in the longevity of a car battery. I have heard enough scare stories to put me off. Also the fact that the electricity used to power them is mostly based on fossil fuel makes the whole thing a nonsense. I’m also not buying Solar panels as they are gone too expensive. Based on my experience with phone and laptop lithium batteries they don’t age well. If they can’t get them right for a small item like a phone then how long will they remain efficient in a car without needing to be replaced ?


you had managed to fit an awful lot of misinformation in one post, bravo.


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## RichInSpirit (3 Jan 2023)

I am very surprised that non of the car manufacturers have produced a diesel electric hybrid.
Best of both worlds, no range anxiety and greenish.


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## T McGibney (3 Jan 2023)

Blackrock1 said:


> you had managed to fit an awful lot of misinformation in one post, bravo.


Care to elaborate?

There are only 2 claims of fact made in the post

the electricity used to power (electric vehicles) is mostly based on fossil fuel.
the batteries don't age well.


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## Blackrock1 (3 Jan 2023)

RichInSpirit said:


> I am very surprised that non of the car manufacturers have produced a diesel electric hybrid.
> Best of both worlds, no range anxiety and greenish.


there are some, mercedes do them for sure.






						Mercedes E 300 de: long-term test review | Auto Express
					

Final report: We say a fond farewell to our fuel-sipping Mercedes E 300 de




					www.autoexpress.co.uk


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## Blackrock1 (3 Jan 2023)

T McGibney said:


> Care to elaborate?
> 
> There are only 2 claims of fact made in the post
> 
> ...


not really, its the standard misinformed stuff around standing around to charge trying to get from A to B, worries about the longevity of car batteries etc. The most vocal anti EV posts come from people with zero experience of them, then peppered with stories about cars they heard that caught fire or someone was waiting 11 hours to charge somewhere.


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## RichInSpirit (3 Jan 2023)

Blackrock1 said:


> there are some, mercedes do them for sure.



Didn't know that! That's brilliant!


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## Blackrock1 (3 Jan 2023)

RichInSpirit said:


> Didn't know that! That's brilliant!


just linked a review of the E class


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## T McGibney (3 Jan 2023)

Blackrock1 said:


> not really, its the standard misinformed stuff around standing around to charge trying to get from A to B, worries about the longevity of car batteries etc.


People worrying about things like that doesn't constitute misinformation though. 


Blackrock1 said:


> The most vocal anti EV posts come from people with zero experience of them, then peppered with stories about cars they heard that caught fire or someone was waiting 11 hours to charge somewhere.


They didn't make any claims of such a nature though.


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## Leo (3 Jan 2023)

RichInSpirit said:


> I am very surprised that non of the car manufacturers have produced a diesel electric hybrid.











						Diesel Hybrids: Why They Don't Make As Much Sense As You Think
					






					www.businessinsider.com


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## Peanuts20 (3 Jan 2023)

T McGibney said:


> Care to elaborate?
> 
> There are only 2 claims of fact made in the post
> 
> ...



No part of a car will last forever. In the same way as engine's need replacement parts or in some cases, replacement in it's entirety, we should expect that at some stage, we may need to swap out an electric car battery as well. 

If anything, the fact that there are fewer mechanical things in electric cars to break/replace is a bonus

There is however, potentially a bigger issue then the use of fossil fuels to generate the electricity needed for charging and it's the use of other minerals such as lithium as part of the battery. That is a finate asset that the car and battery companies need to move away from this resources


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## T McGibney (3 Jan 2023)

Peanuts20 said:


> No part of a car will last forever. In the same way as engine's need replacement parts or in some cases, replacement in it's entirety, we should expect that at some stage, we may need to swap out an electric car battery as well.


Most cars don't need replacement engines until they're approaching normal end-of-useful-life. When someone buys a new car, they'd be rather alarmed to be told to expect that at some stage it may need a replacement engine.



Peanuts20 said:


> There is however, potentially a bigger issue then the use of fossil fuels to generate the electricity needed for charging and it's the use of other minerals such as lithium as part of the battery. That is a finate asset that the car and battery companies need to move away from this resources


Agreed.


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## michaelm (3 Jan 2023)

Peanuts20 said:


> There is however, potentially a bigger issue then the use of fossil fuels to generate the electricity needed for charging and it's the use of other minerals such as lithium as part of the battery. That is a finate asset that the car and battery companies need to move away from this resources


Hopefully, when I come to replace my next diesel around 2040, I'll have skipped the heavy battery based electric cars and be able to get a green-hydrogen fuel-cell electric.


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## Laughahalla (3 Jan 2023)

Saying that a disproportionate amount of EV's catch fire compared to ICE cars is beyond parody.
In the USA
For every 100,000 ICE cars sold in a year there will be 1500 car fires.
For every 100,000 BEV cars sold in a year there will be 25 car fires.








						Gas vs. Electric Car Fires [2022 Findings] | AutoinsuranceEZ.com
					

Auto fires result in hundreds of fatalities every year and millions of car recalls. Click here to see hybrid, gas, and electric car fire statistics.




					www.autoinsuranceez.com
				




The point about pollution. There is no tail pipe in a BEV car. If you are walking or cycling or live next to a busy road, would you prefer a BEV to drive past you or a diesel/petrol spewing smoke out of its backside and into you and your kids lungs.

The point about using fossil fuels to power them. - Solar and wind power is growing at a good pace. As of right now this minute, 55% of Ireland's power is being generated by wind energy  https://www.windenergy.ie/live/ https://www.smartgriddashboard.com/#all/generation

I see lots of houses installing solar too. If every house had solar we would have very little reliance on imported fuel.

But to the point about Diesel's, I bought a lowish mileage 5 year old one recently that I'll keep until it falls apart. ( I will use this for the mythical car journey from cork to Antrim without stopping that I'll never do). I don't foresee my next car purchase  to be diesel, petrol or hybrid. We already have an 9 year old EV that does us for 80% of our needs ( School, , sports, shops, work) . Only need to charge it once or twice a week.


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## Mamamia22 (3 Jan 2023)

I can’t find the post but there’s a long one on here about owning an EV. The extraordinary planning of journeys and time spent queueing at charging points having coffees and reading the paper etc was off putting. Until charging is as fast and obtainable as a 5 min diesel fill I won’t be joining the EV club anytime soon. The recent story I heard about one spontaneously going on fire is a legitimate one. Car companies love coming up with new models with x, y and z features. They are v good at getting people to part with their hard earned cash. I’m not immune. I bought one with keyless go the last time. Another bad idea /Gimmick. I see EV as just another marketing tool right now. While people are still flying by jet engine in their millions on a daily basis I see no benefit to the planet. One look at flight radar tells me the extra cost/hassle is just virtue signalling. Persuade me otherwise.


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## Blackrock1 (3 Jan 2023)

T McGibney said:


> People worrying about things like that doesn't constitute misinformation though.
> 
> They didn't make any claims of such a nature though.


read subsequent posts by the same poster.


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## Blackrock1 (3 Jan 2023)

Mamamia22 said:


> I can’t find the post but there’s a long one on here about owning an EV. The extraordinary planning of journeys and time spent queueing at charging points having coffees and reading the paper etc was off putting. Until charging is as fast and obtainable as a 5 min diesel fill I won’t be joining the EV club anytime soon. The recent story I heard about one spontaneously going on fire is a legitimate one. Car companies love coming up with new models with x, y and z features. They are v good at getting people to part with their hard earned cash. I’m not immune. I bought one with keyless go the last time. Another bad idea /Gimmick. I see EV as just another marketing tool right now. While people are still flying by jet engine in their millions on a daily basis I see no benefit to the planet. One look at flight radar tells me the extra cost/hassle is just virtue signalling. Persuade me otherwise.


I cant believe you have to goto a petrol station and wait around flammable liquid to refuel your car, i just plug mine in once a week at home and never have to leave my driveway to refuel.....

The fire story is an anecdote and not statistically relevant.

and as for the end of your post, why bother doing anything to decrease carbon emissions if thats the case?


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## Blackrock1 (3 Jan 2023)

T McGibney said:


> Most cars don't need replacement engines until they're approaching normal end-of-useful-life. When someone buys a new car, they'd be rather alarmed to be told to expect that at some stage it may need a replacement engine.
> 
> 
> Agreed.



Car batteries are generally represented to last circa 200,000 miles or 15-20 years. They will degrade in this time for sure, but most ICE engines do as well. I think thats plenty long enough, you dont see very many 15-year-old cars on the road any more.


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## T McGibney (3 Jan 2023)

Blackrock1 said:


> Car batteries are generally represented to last circa 200,000 miles or 15-20 years. They will degrade in this time for sure, but most ICE engines do as well. I think thats plenty long enough, you dont see very many 15-year-old cars on the road any more.


Replacing an ICE car battery is no big deal as they're not expensive. There are plenty of 15-year-old cars on the road.


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## Laughahalla (3 Jan 2023)

Our main driver is an 9 year old EV , Almost zero maintenance. Drives like new

EV won't suit everybody at the moment but they're getting longer and longer range each year and no doubt they'll have a longer range than ICE cars in a few more years.





						Electric cars with the longest range in km (miles) | myEVreview
					

Electric cars with the longest range in km (miles)




					www.myevreview.com


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## Blackrock1 (3 Jan 2023)

T McGibney said:


> Replacing an ICE car battery is no big deal as they're not expensive. There are plenty of 15-year-old cars on the road.


I wasnt referring to an ice battery I was referring to the engine.


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## Zenith63 (3 Jan 2023)

T McGibney said:


> Care to elaborate?
> 
> There are only 2 claims of fact made in the post
> 
> ...


Misinformation isn't just the statement of untrue facts though, it can be using a fact/statistic incorrectly or in a misleading way, surrounding a fact in misleading information so as to change the implication of the fact, confusing causation/correlation and a bunch of other things.


Fact: the electricity used to power (electric vehicles) is mostly based on fossil fuel
Misinformation: the electricity used to power them is mostly based on fossil fuel makes the whole thing a nonsense
Small ICE engines convert ~30% of fossil fuels burned into motion, large centralised power stations convert ~60% (edited my incorrect 90% figure here sorry!) of fossil fuels burned into electricity and EVs convert over 90% of that electricity into motion.  There are a bunch of scientific studies out there that have proven that even on some of the most polluting coal-burning electricity grids EVs release less CO2 than ICE cars over their lifetimes.  Even ignoring CO2 though, ICE engines burn fossil fuel in places where people walk/work/live, centralised power stations typically do it around far less people and this really matters because the likes of particulate matter and NOX emissions are highly localised, just a few meters makes a big difference to your exposure.




Fact: cars catch fire
Misinformation: I’ve just heard of an EV going on fire in a friends driveway. Tricky to put out apparently plus the cost of the fire brigade. Not nice during Christmas hols. The car is written off and lucky house didn’t catch fire into the bargain. I’ll stick with the tried and trusted.
The clear implication is that you should stick with tried/trusted ICE cars because EVs are a fire hazard.  However a study from the US insurance industry shows that electric cars catch fire at a rate of 25 per 100k sales while petrol/diesel catch fire at a rate of 1529 per 100k and hybrids 3474 per 100k.  If you would prefer to own a car that won't catch fire on you the data suggests you need to steer well clear of anything with petrol/diesel on-board.




Fact: Modern EV batteries degrade over time, at a rate of ~1% per year
Misinformation: I have no faith in the longevity of a car battery. I have heard enough scare stories to put me off.  Based on my experience with phone and laptop lithium batteries they don’t age well. If they can’t get them right for a small item like a phone then how long will they remain efficient in a car without needing to be replaced?
The clear implication being that EV batteries age at similar rates to phone/laptop batteries, which we all know tend to last 5 years or so before you start thinking that a new battery would make life much easier.  The reality is there are thousands of different types of lithium-ion batteries out there using different form factors, chemistries, management systems etc; some of these might only survive a single charge cycle over a couple of weeks, others are designed to last thousands over many years.  Another example of the comparison issue here would be e-cigarettes, many use the 18650 lithium battery and last 6 months, Tesla use ~8000 18650 lithium batteries in their EVs but don't need to replace them every 6 months.
To throw in a real-world example, I have an 8 year old Nissan Leaf.  Basically the first generation of modern electric vehicles and Nissan made some poor decisions in-terms of lithium battery chemistry and how use/charging is managed, really doesn't get much worse than the older Nissan Leafs.  But the battery is still at >80% of its useable capacity.  So even this worst-of-the-worst EV is not going to need a battery replacement before the rest of the car has fallen to pieces.  There are certainly batteries failing and getting replaced in EVs, just as the odd ICE engine needs to be replaced, but it is misinformation to imply that the average person is in any way likely to experience this just because their iPhone is toast after 4-5 years.


Sorry for the length of that and sorry for dissecting your posts @Mamamia22, I know this is just stuff you've read and are repeating without malicious intent.


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## PGF2016 (3 Jan 2023)

Mamamia22 said:


> I see EV as just another marketing tool right now. While people are still flying by jet engine in their millions on a daily basis I see no benefit to the planet. One look at flight radar tells me the extra cost/hassle is just virtue signalling. Persuade me otherwise.


There's a 1.5km road between the estate I live in and a local primary school. It's bumper to bumper every morning before the start of school. There are kids walking for 15 minutes every day to and from school breathing in toxic fumes along that road. 

Can you see how the planet would benefit if fossil fuel cars in this scenario are replaced all over the world?


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## PGF2016 (3 Jan 2023)

Clean energy, EVs, better living standards due to less fossil fuel pollution, less noise. Ah yes. Those good old Victorian standards of living. Thank you Tesla.


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## T McGibney (3 Jan 2023)

PGF2016 said:


> Clean energy, EVs, better living standards due to less fossil fuel pollution, less noise. Ah yes. Those good old Victorian standards of living. Thank you Tesla.


Yep. Clean alright. For you.








						Child labour, toxic leaks: the price we could pay for a greener future
					

Our mission to create cleaner living using natural resources could itself cause widespread environmental harm, scientists now warn




					www.theguardian.com
				












						Millions die as most Indians still cook with wood and dung
					

Over two-thirds of Indians still burn wood and dung-based fuel for cooking, leading to a million deaths a year from indoor pollution




					earthjournalism.net


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## Mamamia22 (3 Jan 2023)

I walk my kids to school through those fumes in all weathers, wear wet gear etc. Most parents are too lazy to get out of their cars and prefer to waste time and fuel whilst they eagerly flick at their phones rather than chat with their kids while they walk. I see them happily bumper to bumper like sheep inhaling the fumes into their cars without realising it. The same parents who like to check on their step count using their expensive lithium fuelled watches. I figure the toxins from exhausts are less concentrated outside in the open air. Maybe I’m wrong but I prefer to walk. I don’t believe the filtration system in a car removes all those toxins. We are living in a messed up world. However Im not about to shell out for the cost of a new EV and the fixtures required in my driveway plus solar panels right now. I recycle as much as I can but wonder if it’s actually worthwhile as most of the stuff is shipped long distance somewhere. I don’t buy unnecessary stuff I don’t need. I wear clothes until they have holes.  I don’t go to Lanzarote for a long weekend etc. I won’t be pushed into an EV by expensive marketing and biased studies until I’m ready to thanks. Remember the emissions scandal. Be careful on the data from car manufacturers.


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## T McGibney (3 Jan 2023)

deleted


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## Blackrock1 (3 Jan 2023)

Mamamia22 said:


> I walk my kids to school through those fumes in all weathers, wear wet gear etc. Most parents are too lazy to get out of their cars and prefer to waste time and fuel whilst they eagerly flick at their phones rather than chat with their kids while they walk. I see them happily bumper to bumper like sheep inhaling the fumes into their cars without realising it. The same parents who like to check on their step count using their expensive lithium fuelled watches. I figure the toxins from exhausts are less concentrated outside in the open air. Maybe I’m wrong but I prefer to walk. I don’t believe the filtration system in a car removes all those toxins. We are living in a messed up world. However Im not about to shell out for the cost of a new EV and the fixtures required in my driveway plus solar panels right now. I recycle as much as I can but wonder if it’s actually worthwhile as most of the stuff is shipped long distance somewhere. I don’t buy unnecessary stuff I don’t need. I wear clothes until they have holes.  I don’t go to Lanzarote for a long weekend etc. I won’t be pushed into an EV by expensive marketing and biased studies until I’m ready to thanks. Remember the emissions scandal. Be careful on the data from car manufacturers.


so instead you will endeavor to buy as new a diesel at the last opportunity and drive it as long as you can, how virtuous.
Humour me for a moment, what kind of annual mileage do you do that makes an EV so unsuitable?


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## Mamamia22 (3 Jan 2023)

It will be a second hand car purchase. I don’t intend to buy after that. One car to last for retirement. I do around 15000km or so. It’s not about suitable. I’m not paying an EV premium, plus EV drivewayset up, queuing for recharge hassle, plus/ minus Solar panels just to suit an agenda.


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## Blackrock1 (3 Jan 2023)

Mamamia22 said:


> It will be a second hand car purchase. I don’t intend to buy after that. One car to last for retirement. I do around 15000km or so. It’s not about suitable. I’m not paying an EV premium, plus EV drivewayset up, queuing for recharge hassle, plus/ minus Solar panels just to suit an agenda.


I’m not sure why you keep bringing solar panels into the discussion and I’d suggest of you do 15k per annum 90 odd percent of your charging would be done at home. Anyway an ev is a much more pleasant drive than a diesel.


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## Mamamia22 (3 Jan 2023)

The world plans to burn more than 8 billion tonnes of coal in 2023. More than any previous year in history. Coal is cheap and readily available. It doesn’t depend on sun or wind. Germany is reopening coal fired electricity plants. Renewables are too expensive to set up and not a priority right now with debt so high, healthcare in crisis and war still ongoing. With rising unit costs of electricity EVs are down the list of priorities in my view. At least you know at the diesel pump where you stand. Most are dreading their winter utility bills right now.


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## joe sod (4 Jan 2023)

Zenith63 said:


> Small ICE engines convert ~30% of fossil fuels burned into motion, large centralised power stations convert ~90% of fossil fuels burned into electricity and EVs convert over 90% of that electricity into motion


That's not correct the efficiency of thermal power stations is between 35 and 40% , maximum maybe 50%.
It's impossible to get that high efficiency from fossil fuels because there is always waste heat generated in any energy conversion due to entropy and the laws of thermodynamics.
Yes electric cars are very high efficiency due to the fact that there is no energy conversion because its stored as electric energy. The problem is getting it into the battery in the first place, its never going to be 100% renewables,  the only renewable sources we have that are dependable were built in the 1920s and 1950s the hydro power stations and they maybe can get to 85% efficiency


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## Zenith63 (4 Jan 2023)

joe sod said:


> That's not correct the efficiency of thermal power stations is between 35 and 40% , maximum maybe 50%.
> It's impossible to get that high efficiency from fossil fuels because there is always waste heat generated in any energy conversion due to entropy and the laws of thermodynamics.
> Yes electric cars are very high efficiency due to the fact that there is no energy conversion because it’s stored as electric energy. The problem is getting it into the battery in the first place, its never going to be 100% renewables,  the only renewable sources we have that are dependable were built in the 1920s and 1950s the hydro power stations and they maybe can get to 85% efficiency


Sorry I took that figure from memory, creating a bit of misinformation myself!  GE/EDFs latest combined cycle gas power station is 62% efficient, a long way from the 90% I quoted.

This just goes to show why we should not trust our memory, intuition or ‘doing your own research’ on stuff like this; studies of real data by disinterested experts/scientists is what matters. All of these that I’ve seen show that even on some of the dirtiest electricity grids, EVs significantly reduce CO2 emissions over their lifetimes, for example:

"While there are emissions from making and using electric vehicles, when you take into account all the factors they are much, much cleaner than a gasoline vehicle," David Reichmuth, a senior engineer at the Union of Concerned Scientists, told Insider. "They're not perfect. They're just much, much better."

The International Council on Clean Transportation (ICCT) estimates that a medium-sized EV registered in the US in 2021 will pollute 60-68% less over its life than a comparable model burning fossil fuels. Its analysis assumed that EVs will use increasingly clean electricity over time.


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## Blackrock1 (4 Jan 2023)

Mamamia22 said:


> The world plans to burn more than 8 billion tonnes of coal in 2023. More than any previous year in history. Coal is cheap and readily available. It doesn’t depend on sun or wind. Germany is reopening coal fired electricity plants. Renewables are too expensive to set up and not a priority right now with debt so high, healthcare in crisis and war still ongoing. With rising unit costs of electricity EVs are down the list of priorities in my view. At least you know at the diesel pump where you stand. Most are dreading their winter utility bills right now.


renewables are too expensive and not a priority? i think we are probably finished here !


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## Peanuts20 (4 Jan 2023)

I've a 15 yr old and an 11 yr old kid. Reality for the 11 yr old is  that she will probably never drive a gear shift and she is unlikely to ever fill a car from a petrol/diesel pump. In 10/15 years time, petrol pumps and stations as we know them will have gone the way of Xtravision.


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## Blackrock1 (4 Jan 2023)

Peanuts20 said:


> I've a 15 yr old and an 11 yr old kid. Reality for the 11 yr old is  that she will probably never drive a gear shift and she is unlikely to ever fill a car from a petrol/diesel pump. In 10/15 years time, petrol pumps and stations as we know them will have gone the way of Xtravision.


im not even sure if my 4 year old will ever drive a car we could have moved to self driving at that stage.


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## PGF2016 (4 Jan 2023)

Mamamia22 said:


> It will be a second hand car purchase. I don’t intend to buy after that. One car to last for retirement. I do around 15000km or so. It’s not about suitable. I’m not paying an EV premium, plus EV drivewayset up, queuing for recharge hassle, plus/ minus Solar panels just to suit an agenda.


EV premium? In your case would an EV not make financial sense? Lower fuel costs (even without solar panels), lower servicing costs, lower tolls. The hassle you mention queuing to recharge is probably not a concern with your yearly mileage. And if time is so precious you'd save time by never having to refill at a petrol station again. On those cold winter mornings you could heat the car remotely without leaving your house. 

Come to think of it. Using filthy petrol stations and scraping ice of windscreens in the winter sounds like something from the Victorian age.


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## joe sod (4 Jan 2023)

Peanuts20 said:


> I've a 15 yr old and an 11 yr old kid. Reality for the 11 yr old is  that she will probably never drive a gear shift and she is unlikely to ever fill a car from a petrol/diesel pump. In 10/15 years time, petrol pumps and stations as we know them will have gone the way of Xtravision.


Things never advance that quickly, making bold predictions like that are bound to be unfulfilled.
Yes there will probably be less petrol stations and many more electric cars and hybrids but this transition is going to happen much slower than many commentators think or say.

You can't legislate for massive technology and infrastructure change. Look at the health and hospital crisis now , surely they could solve that much easier than converting the entire energy and transportation infrastructure that has taken 100years to put in place .

What were you doing in 2013   ,your lifestyle is not that much different in 2023, yes you have a few nicer gadgets but that's the height of the change. People think updating a smartphone or  zoom meetings is the same technology change as overhauling the entire energy infrastructure of the world,  they are completely different things and levels of difficulty


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## Peanuts20 (5 Jan 2023)

joe sod said:


> What were you doing in 2013   ,your lifestyle is not that much different in 2023, yes you have a few nicer gadgets but that's the height of the change. People think updating a smartphone or  zoom meetings is the same technology change as overhauling the entire energy infrastructure of the world,  they are completely different things and levels of difficulty


My life is very different from where it was 10 years ago. 10 years ago, I commuted into the office daily in a diesel car, bought DVD's and CD's, used a digital physical camera, stored images on DVD's and discs and used a physical card or cash for paying for things. Nowadays, I work from home, stream movies and music, store everything in the cloud and pay for things using my mobile phone. 

Some countries are further ahead then we are,   Almost half the cars sold in Sweden in August was PHEV/BEV and the technology is only going to get better and the % is only going to increase.


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## Blackrock1 (5 Jan 2023)

Peanuts20 said:


> My life is very different from where it was 10 years ago. 10 years ago, I commuted into the office daily in a diesel car, bought DVD's and CD's, used a digital physical camera, stored images on DVD's and discs and used a physical card or cash for paying for things. Nowadays, I work from home, stream movies and music, store everything in the cloud and pay for things using my mobile phone.
> 
> Some countries are further ahead then we are,   Almost half the cars sold in Sweden in August was PHEV/BEV and the technology is only going to get better and the % is only going to increase.


In 2022, *79.3 percent of all new cars sold in Norway were 100 percent battery-electric powered vehicles*.


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## joe sod (5 Jan 2023)

Blackrock1 said:


> In 2022, *79.3 percent of all new cars sold in Norway were 100 percent battery-electric powered vehicles*.


Norway only has a population of 5 million and is one of the richest countries in the world from selling its oil and gas. It is not a comparison to Europe or even the rich world. Norway does alot if things that nobody else does due primarily to its sheer wealth and very low population


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## Blackrock1 (5 Jan 2023)

joe sod said:


> Norway only has a population of 5 million and is one of the richest countries in the world from selling its oil and gas. It is not a comparison to Europe or even the rich world. Norway does alot if things that nobody else does due primarily to its sheer wealth and very low population


even so, it shows what can be done with the right planning and incentives, things are only going one way and itll happen relatively quickly imo.


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## Itchy (5 Jan 2023)

Blackrock1 said:


> even so, it shows what can be done with the right planning and incentives, things are only going one way and itll happen relatively quickly imo.



The FT is reporting today that:



> Battery electric is now the second most popular power-train among UK new car buyers, supplanting diesel for the very first time.








						Subscribe to read | Financial Times
					

News, analysis and comment from the Financial Times, the worldʼs leading global business publication




					www.ft.com
				




Irish car stats: https://stats.beepbeep.ie/

Diesel market share fell 20%, Petrol fell 6%, BEV increased 81%. 

However, 57% of all sales in 2022 were either Petrol or Diesel so there's a way to go despite the rapid trends. Ireland's car market is also very heavily driven by trends in the UK, which are noted above.


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## joe sod (5 Jan 2023)

As regards the UK electric car sales, there were a total of 267,000 pure electric cars sold last year, yes that's a big number but it's still a small fraction of the total number of passenger cars on UK roads,  32.5 million passenger vehicles.
What's really happening is that new car sales have dropped considerably since the start of the pandemic therefore the age of cars is getting older because new cars have become so expensive and unaffordable.

Basically we have the Cuba effect where people will have to keep older cars on the road much longer due to the lack of capacity in producing new cars.
Established car companies have been starved of capital so cannot afford to spend huge sums of money on new factories to produce all those electric cars like they could in the 60s and 70s for new production models.  It's a very capital intensive but low profit business. Tesla itself is now in bother and its share price is down 70% this year, can't see massive increase in production coming from there either.

It doesn't matter what the government says must happen by 2030 if the car companies don't have those facilities up and running the cars won't be produced. There will be alot of backtracking and reevaluation come 2030

The car companies won't have the manufacturing capacity,  the energy companies won't have the generation or grid infrastructure in place. The government won't have the money due to the massive commitments they already have and the debt burden will be rolling over at much higher interest rates in a few years. Corporation tax has peaked .Just look at the hospital and health crisis now, do you seriously believe that this government can deliver on all these zero carbon promises


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## MrEarl (5 Jan 2023)

In real terms, Ireland is no where near the level of car sales, that it needs.

"SIMI said that Petrol accounted for 30.2% of new car registrations, Diesel 26.8%, Hybrid 19.3%, Electric 14.9%, and Plug-In Hybrid 6.8%.

Petrol remains the most popular engine type for 2022, despite a decline in its market share last year from 32.2% in 2021, while hybrid, electric and plug-in hybrid continued to gain market share in 2022 and now account for 41% of the market.

A total of 15,680 new electric cars were registered in 2022, an increase on the 8,650 registrations seen in 2021 and 3,440 in 2019."

Sourced from the article, below:









						2022's top selling car models, along with the nations favourite car colour revealed
					

New car registrations for 2022 totalled 105,250, a marginal 0.3% increase on 2021 but down 10.1% on the pre-pandemic outcome in 2019.




					businessplus.ie
				




Acquisition cost and lack of supporting infrastructure, are the two key problems - both of which the Government could influence quickly, and significantly, if it was serious about getting people to move over to EVs / Hybrids. The pressure on motor manufacturers to supply cars, ranks, thereafter...


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## MrEarl (5 Jan 2023)

Hi,

Serious question - would people here be confident in buying a 3-4 year old EV or Hybrid?  If so, what life expectancy on the battery?


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## Zenith63 (5 Jan 2023)

MrEarl said:


> Hi,
> 
> Serious question - would people here be confident in buying a 3-4 year old EV or Hybrid?  If so, what life expectancy on the battery?


I have an 8 year old Leaf, the battery ‘state of health’ or life is at 85%, 70k kilometres on the clock. The original Leafs (and even the later ones to a certain extent) have very poor battery chemistry and management, a ‘modern’ EV will last significantly better than mine has even.

I’d have zero concerns buying a 4-5 year old EV, I have done a couple of times and know plenty who have. To be honest I’d be more confident than buying a petrol/diesel because you can easily read-out the condition of the battery from the computer. Getting a sense of the condition of the timing chain or head gasket in a petrol/diesel is much more difficult.

Note most EVs come with an 8 year warranty on the battery/powertrain.


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## Firefly (5 Jan 2023)

Zenith63 said:


> To be honest I’d be more confident than buying a petrol/diesel because you can easily read-out the condition of the battery from the computer.


That's a great point


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## Firefly (5 Jan 2023)

MrEarl said:


> "SIMI said that Petrol accounted for 30.2% of new car registrations, Diesel 26.8%, Hybrid 19.3%, Electric 14.9%, and *Plug-In Hybrid 6.8*%.


I'm surprised it's this low...I would have thought plug-in hybrids would be the current sweet spot for those in urban areas with range anxiety


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## losttheplot (5 Jan 2023)

MrEarl said:


> Hi,
> 
> Serious question - would people here be confident in buying a 3-4 year old EV or Hybrid?  If so, what life expectancy on the battery?


I have a 4 year old Hyundai Kona. 95,000 kilometres. Full charge is still giving approx 450km like it did 4 years ago.


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## bish123 (5 Jan 2023)

I bought a new diesel car  years ago which I am planning to keep for another 5 years. Hopefully we settle the debate by than. 

Personally, I put Green & Vegan in same category as novelty notions with some benefits but even bigger marketing spin around it. The biggest element in carbon footprint is production of new car. If EV encourages people to dump cars just because they are diesel and buy a new one, it's hardly beneficial for the environment. Therefore the best thing anyone could do is not to waste food and buy car every few years just because they can afford.


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## RMGC11 (6 Jan 2023)

bish123 said:


> The biggest element in carbon footprint is production of new car.


I was under the impression that particular myth has long been dispelled: https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/electric-vehicle-myths#Myth2 
Unless your driving your car very little miles every year - an EV is much better from an emissions standpoint.


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## bish123 (6 Jan 2023)

RMGC11 said:


> I was under the impression that particular myth has long been dispelled: https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/electric-vehicle-myths#Myth2
> Unless your driving your car very little miles every year - an EV is much better from an emissions standpoint.


This myth buster compares production + lifetime carbon footprint of EV versus ICE car. While agreeing to the benefits of EV, I am pointing to marketing spin (including articles like this) that is encouraging everyone to sell thier existing diesel/ petrol cars and buy a new EV. There is plenty of evidence that the best way to save environment is to use your car longer (petrol, diesel or EV) than buying a new one every few years. I see a lot of EV cars in estate which have replaced the 3-4 old cars because they want to reduce thier carbob footprint.  
https://studyfinds.org/keeping-old-cars-help-environment-more-than-new-electric-cars/








						Manufacturing a car creates as much carbon as driving it
					

Making a new car creates as much carbon pollution as driving it, so it's often bettrer to keep your old banger on the road than to upgrade to a greener model




					www.theguardian.com
				




*Ireland stands second (after Austria) with shortest life span of car with average age of 8.6 years, while EU average is 11.8.* The production of a new medium size car adds 17tons of CO2 to environment which is equivalent to three years worth of electricity and gas at average home. In my opinion, for an average punter, the best way to save environment is to keep existing car longer. I don't see any awareness campaign from media, mythbusters or government on encouraging it. On contrary, they are encouraging to buy new EV cars to get more tax.


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## T McGibney (6 Jan 2023)

bish123 said:


> Ireland stands second (after Austria) with shortest life span of car with average age of 8.6 years, while EU average is 11.8.


I think this is a misrepresentation of the situation.

According to cartell.ie


> The average age of a private car in Ireland, both native and imported, is now 8.8 years. The average age of an imported car in Ireland stands at 9.4 years. An indigenous Irish vehicle’s average age is currently 8.6 years. So while levels of car ownership have increased in Ireland so too has the length of time that people are holding onto their cars.



This suggests to me that the lifetime of an average Irish car is double the average age, because to arrive at an average age of around 9 years, every brand new car will need to be matched by an old car circa 18 years old. So the average lifetime will be around 18 years.

If there are actually a lot of 9 year old cars being scrapped, let me know and I'll buy one of them.


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## Firefly (6 Jan 2023)

bish123 said:


> Ireland stands second (after Austria) with shortest life span of car with average age of 8.6 years


Nice to know I am above average for once


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## Leo (6 Jan 2023)

joe sod said:


> Tesla itself is now in bother and its share price is down 70% this year,


Tesla's share price largely reflected hype over substance. It made little sense that what was effectively a low volume startup was worth more than most of the rest of the market combined.


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## Leo (6 Jan 2023)

bish123 said:


> If EV encourages people to dump cars just because they are diesel and buy a new one, it's hardly beneficial for the environment.


When someone trading in a 3-year old car for an EV, that 3-year old car does not get scrapped.


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## Leo (6 Jan 2023)

T McGibney said:


> because to arrive at an average age of around 9 years,


FYI, this is the average age of all cars still on the road that are flagged as imports rather than the age they were at import.


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## T McGibney (6 Jan 2023)

Leo said:


> FYI, this is the average age of all cars still on the road that are flagged as imports rather than the age they were at import.



According to cartell.ie


> The average age of a private car in Ireland, both native and imported, is now 8.8 years. The average age of an imported car in Ireland stands at 9.4 years. An indigenous Irish vehicle’s average age is currently 8.6 years.


All circa 9 years.


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## Roro999 (6 Jan 2023)

As the OP I decided to buy a hybrid petrol.


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## bish123 (6 Jan 2023)

Leo said:


> When someone trading in a 3-year old car for an EV, that 3-year old car does not get scrapped.


Yes, it doesn't but overall if the whole market is skewed towards getting rid of thier car earlier (1st hand, 2nd hand and so on) that would ultimately lead to cars getting to scrappage earlier. Sources for average age of cars on the road in EU 
https://www.aut.fi/en/statistics/in...e_age_of_passenger_cars_in_european_countries
https://www.statista.com/statistics/974713/passenger-car-average-age-europe/


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## Zenith63 (6 Jan 2023)

Bilmodeller
					

Finn den bilmodellen som passer deg.




					www.hyundai.com
				




Hyundai have stopped selling petrol/diesel/hybrid and plug-in-hybrids in Norway.


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## Itchy (6 Jan 2023)

Roro999 said:


> As the OP I decided to buy a hybrid petrol.



As a single car household, we went with the petrol/hybrid two years ago. For all the analysis we did, it would have been the best of both worlds. In fact, its the worst of both worlds. Definitely regret not getting the EV. In the market for a second car now and will likely go for an older leaf/ioniq.


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## MrEarl (7 Jan 2023)

Roro999 said:


> As the OP I decided to buy a hybrid petrol.



Congrats - mind me asking what car you bought, and what influenced the decision, regarding make? 



Itchy said:


> As a single car household, we went with the petrol/hybrid two years ago. For all the analysis we did, it would have been the best of both worlds. In fact, its the worst of both worlds. Definitely regret not getting the EV. In the market for a second car now and will likely go for an older leaf/ioniq.



Why, what's the issue with the hybrid? As things stand, I think I'd be opting for a petrol-battery hybrid, were I in the market, tomorrow.


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## Blackrock1 (7 Jan 2023)

MrEarl said:


> Congrats - mind me asking what car you bought, and what influenced the decision, regarding make?
> 
> 
> 
> Why, what's the issue with the hybrid? As things stand, I think I'd be opting for a petrol-battery hybrid, were I in the market, tomorrow.


Poor electric range and all the downsides / maintenance of owning an ice car , they are a gimmick really.


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## Roro999 (7 Jan 2023)

MrEarl said:


> Congrats - mind me asking what car you bought, and what influenced the decision, regarding make?
> 
> A Kia and 7 year or 150 km warranty.


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## bstop (7 Jan 2023)

Blackrock1 said:


> Poor electric range and all the downsides / maintenance of owning an ice car , they are a gimmick really.


Add in also a lot of extra complex equipment and electronics to control switching between electric and petrol drive. I would not have confidence in a mechanic being able to diganose and repair this type of equipment in an efficient and economical manner.


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## IrishHusk (7 Jan 2023)

I was talking to someone in the tyre business over Christmas and he mentioned that electric vehicle tyres are quite expensive in comparison to ICE tyres. For those who have electric vehicles did you see an increase in the price for new tyre's when replacing them.


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## bstop (7 Jan 2023)

Why I’ve pulled the plug on my electric car
					

As I watch my family strike out on foot across the fields into driving rain and gathering darkness, my wife holding each child’s hand, our new year plans in rui




					www.thetimes.co.uk
				




“Can’t help you, pal. You’ve got a software issue there. I’m just a car mechanic. And this isn’t a car, it’s a laptop on wheels.”


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## Zenith63 (7 Jan 2023)

IrishHusk said:


> I was talking to someone in the tyre business over Christmas and he mentioned that electric vehicle tyres are quite expensive in comparison to ICE tyres. For those who have electric vehicles did you see an increase in the price for new tyre's when replacing them.


They are heavier so you’ll be going for the higher weight-rated tyres, I’m sure it makes a difference but I didn’t my really notice the difference so must be minimal enough. While you can buy EV specific tyres, there’s no need to do you’re buying fairly off-the-shelf stuff.


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## llgon (7 Jan 2023)

IrishHusk said:


> I was talking to someone in the tyre business over Christmas and he mentioned that electric vehicle tyres are quite expensive in comparison to ICE tyres. For those who have electric vehicles did you see an increase in the price for new tyre's when replacing them.



Tyres definitely more expensive but have found them to last a lot longer. 50k km on the clock, rear tyres replaced at 45k, still a bit to go on original front tyres.


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## peemac (8 Jan 2023)

Interesting conversation and it came to mind when I saw a 2016 What Car guide. (edit - Winter 2016 showcasing 2017 models)  

They were saying that Nissan Note at 100 mile range was a very good range and ideal for town driving.
They literally fell over the fact that a Tesla gave them 200 miles in real world driving on one charge.
Average range was about 75 miles

2023 and any range under 200 miles / 350 km would be considered poor.

Next generation batteries due later this year are set to have 500+ mile ranges and 1,000 charges before any discernable fall off (that's 500,000 miles!!!) and these are being developed by general motors.

It won't be governments that push ev into being the default choice - it will be the technology and price. Cost of production is expected to fall below ice cars fairly soon and then soon after they will be cheaper to produce. Some say substantially cheaper.

So in 2026/7 when I expect to change car, I reckon an ev will be the more sensible and cheaper option.


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## joe sod (Monday at 9:08 AM)

peemac said:


> Next generation batteries due later this year are set to have 500+ mile ranges and 1,000 charges before any discernable fall off (that's 500,000 miles!!!) and these are being developed by general motors.


That will be great if it happens however the big car companies including GM are struggling to get capital and funding look at their share prices over the last decade,  they have recovered a little over the last year as investors get out of stocks like Tesla.
The ESG movement where people only invest in ethical investments is also a factor starving the big auto makers of funding for electric cars

The fact that interest rates have risen significantly and are still rising and that money is flowing out of technology stocks is not conducive to rapidly evolving technologies in my opinion.  None of the big tech companies went near it when they were awash with money, Apple had a brief look a few years ago but went away from it


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## Blackrock1 (Monday at 9:14 AM)

bstop said:


> Why I’ve pulled the plug on my electric car
> 
> 
> As I watch my family strike out on foot across the fields into driving rain and gathering darkness, my wife holding each child’s hand, our new year plans in rui
> ...


hatchet piece by an idiot to be honest, he isnt even trying to hide his bias.


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## Leo (Monday at 9:24 AM)

T McGibney said:


> All circa 9 years.


Ah, I misread your 'arriving' at and thought you meant they arrived in the country at that age


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## Leo (Monday at 9:30 AM)

bish123 said:


> Yes, it doesn't but overall if the whole market is skewed towards getting rid of thier car earlier (1st hand, 2nd hand and so on) that would ultimately lead to cars getting to scrappage earlier. Sources for average age of cars on the road in EU


I'd suggest the NCT has a more significant bearing on when cars are scrapped here. It's no surprise that fatality rates are higher in those countries with significantly older cars.


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## RedOnion (Monday at 9:33 AM)

joe sod said:


> That will be great if it happens however the big car companies including GM are struggling to get capital and funding look at their share prices over the last decade, they have recovered a little over the last year as investors get out of stocks like Tesla.The ESG movement where people only invest in ethical investments is also a factor starving the big auto makers of funding for electric cars



GM have absolutely no trouble getting funding. The share price doesn't matter unless they're trying to issue new shares. They're currently buying back shares, reducing the amount of capital they have.

They also have no issue raising funds under ESG rules, by issuing 'Green' bonds. GM, Ford, Toyota, Honda have all issued investment grade sustainable bonds in the last year.


----------



## Itchy (Monday at 11:33 AM)

MrEarl said:


> Why, what's the issue with the hybrid? As things stand, I think I'd be opting for a petrol-battery hybrid, were I in the market, tomorrow.



For us, were in a regional town where we do most of the driving. If we drive to Dublin its a ~100km round trip and we have a 1st gen PHEV so the real range is only 20km (9kWh) . Roughly, 60% of our driving <20km, 90%<100km (by no. of trips rather than by distance), maybe 4/6 long drives a year i.e. West Cork/Connemara c. 350km.  We do c. 18k km p.a. 

On a kWh basis, the difference between the electrical vs. petrol cost is minimal. Our electrical capacity in the car is such that there is no incentive to adjust our lifestyle e.g. avail of night rates etc. Our capacity to enjoy those benefits is limited by the size of the battery anyway. If we had a BEV we could benefit from a "full tank" at low night rates, no point in that with a small battery (Say 75kWh vs. 9kWh in the PHEV). We do plug in at home and we do drive in EV mode for most of our driving but on an economic basis, there is no advantage or its small. (Considering buying the home charger on top of the car basically removes any economic benefit given our low mileage). 

Practically this means that you have to remember to plug in all the time (so doesn't happen sometimes i.e. you get distracted). The marginal benefits of plugging in don't incentivise us to be disciplined about it! With BEV you can charge to 80% and just manage it over the week, topping up now and again. The great thing is that our (my) time visiting the petrol station is significantly reduced, topping up by 20km every time you get home is great. A BEV would have pretty much eliminated going to the garage at all i.e. charge at home as needed and use of public charging on long journeys.

Regarding the extent of public infrastructure, that turned out not to be an issue. It's a nice to have realistically. I don't use it anymore given the price of electricity, there used to be a parking benefit also but not anymore. No marginal benefit for us. My father is driving an etron and living in West Cork. He travels up maybe once a month. So he doesn't have the greatest range out there (c. 300 km) but he's stopping in Cashel for half an hour, using Ionity, and back on the road. It's low hassle, rarely full and very low trade off for the benefits of having the EV the rest of the time. On the downside, Ionity is basically more expensive than petrol/diesel for the range you get. Again, trade off is worth it, using it twice a month or so. He has the night rate the rest of the time. 

We have none of the maintenance benefits that you get from owning a BEV. In fact, as mentioned previously, there is additional complexity. In our car there was a problem with the A/C. The system is used with the electrical system AFAIK. So last summer the car refused to drive in EV mode when the temperatures were very high as the battery couldn't be cooled sufficiently. No major hassle but it wasn't functional for a few days (Would we have had no car if it was a BEV, not sure?).

Agree with @Blackrock1, overall its a gimmic. Even if I upgraded to a higher range PHEV, it wouldn't be worth it. I would still have all the downsides i.e. maintenance, complexity, limited economic benefits. The BEV makes so much sense for our car use. A PHEV could be worth it if you have very high frequency, low distance trips and you require the facility to travel long distances but do so rarely. We have low frequency, low distance trips. If we committed to hiring a car when we needed to go West, we would only need a range of 200km in a battery to meet all our driving needs, 99% of the time.


----------



## joe sod (Monday at 1:44 PM)

RedOnion said:


> GM have absolutely no trouble getting funding. The share price doesn't matter unless they're trying to issue new shares. They're currently buying back shares, reducing the amount of capital they have.
> 
> They also have no issue raising funds under ESG rules, by issuing 'Green' bonds. GM, Ford, Toyota, Honda have all issued investment grade sustainable bonds in the last year.


Good points there, yes the green bonds will provide some funding.  However even with all this funding etc battery technology will hit a wall because of physical constraints with regard electrical energy storage.
Currently lithium ion batteries have an energy density of 0.26kWh per kg of battery compared to diesel which has an energy density of 12 to 14 kWh per kg.
That's a factor of 100 times which is an enormous gap to bridge,  its down to the fundamentals with regard to the energy density associated with chemical and electrical energy and the energy stored in hydro carbon bonds.
Of course the finest minds working in this area know all the constraints but if you can increase the storage capacity of a battery marginally we'll then there is alot of money and great job for you. This is where the money is and this is where the politics is.


----------



## PGF2016 (Monday at 2:30 PM)

joe sod said:


> Currently lithium ion batteries have an energy density of 0.26kWh per kg of battery compared to diesel which has an energy density of 12 to 14 kWh per kg.
> That's a factor of 100 times which is an enormous gap to bridge


Why does the gap need to be bridged?


----------



## peemac (Monday at 6:11 PM)

joe sod said:


> That will be great if it happens however the big car companies including GM are struggling to get capital and funding look at their share prices over the last decade,  they have recovered a little over the last year as investors get out of stocks like Tesla.
> The ESG movement where people only invest in ethical investments is also a factor starving the big auto makers of funding for electric cars
> 
> The fact that interest rates have risen significantly and are still rising and that money is flowing out of technology stocks is not conducive to rapidly evolving technologies in my opinion.  None of the big tech companies went near it when they were awash with money, Apple had a brief look a few years ago but went away from it


Its a standalone company that GM have invested in and recently was reversed into a SPAC and has $450m cash.  
https://ses.ai/our-history/ 

Honda & hyundai are also investors.

Prototypes are due this year and  batteries for full car testing next year with full commercial production by 2025.

If they get to 700km as a standard range and quick recharge (they are looking at wireless charging - park and go), you can easily see EV's being the predominant vehicle by 2027


----------



## waterman (Monday at 9:24 PM)

PebbleBeach2020 said:


> Electric cars are as bad on the environment as diesel. The battery productive and disposal are disgraceful but the environmentalists and greens will never admit to that.
> 
> Diesel cars here and I don't see purchasing habits changing anytime soon tbh





Zenith63 said:


> They won’t admit to it because it has been proven to be incorrect time and time again by the worlds’ scientific community. Example white paper on the subject: https://theicct.org/publication/a-g...ombustion-engine-and-electric-passenger-cars/. If you have other data from reputable sources by all means post it.
> 
> 
> 7 years from Saturday will be your last opportunity to purchase a new diesel car, I’m sure you’ll be able to buy secondhand for at least 10 years beyond that, whether you’ll be allowed take it into an urban area remains to be seen.
> ...



If you're interested search on the internet for images of how much copper gets extracted from an open cast mine, none of these are in Europe. Now I know copper is used in a multiple of industries and in regular ICE cars too however with the high DC voltages in electric cars you need heavier cables for the power. A second search worth doing is the mining of the materials for the car batteries e.g cobalt. So while we all might like to believe we're doing amazing work for the environment driving electric cars. What it takes to get it here and the damage being done to other areas of the world is a story we do not see. Just some food for thought.


----------



## bstop (Monday at 9:28 PM)

Britain’s EV revolution risks coming unplugged
					

When large numbers of electric cars first went on sale a few years ago buyers complained of “range anxiety” — the fear that the battery would run out of charge before they reached their destination




					www.thetimes.co.uk
				




“Will I be able to recharge? Will chargers be available and working when and where I need them? Those are the questions new car buyers are increasingly asking themselves and may well act as a barrier to buying new EVs,” 

It’s not hard to see why. Over Christmas and new year newspapers and websites published photographs of long queues of angry drivers waiting to plug in at charging stations. At Gretna Welcome Break Services, dozens of Tesla drivers trying to get to and from Scotland queued for three hours.


----------



## PGF2016 (Monday at 9:34 PM)

waterman said:


> So while we all might like to believe we're doing amazing work for the environment driving electric cars. What it takes to get it here and the damage being done to other areas of the world is a story we do not see


I think this had been discussed many times on here. I doubt there is anyone unaware of the environmental damage caused by the manufacture of EVs. 

I still think they are preferable to ICE and the fossil fuel industry.


----------



## Purple (Tuesday at 3:42 PM)

PGF2016 said:


> I think this had been discussed many times on here. I doubt there is anyone unaware of the environmental damage caused by the manufacture of EVs.
> 
> I still think they are preferable to ICE and the fossil fuel industry.



Until recently if you drove an EV in this country is was partially powered by turf. At the moment it's powered by coal, oil (about half of the total) and gas with around 11% from renewables (source). Oh, and around 40% of the power we generate in our stations in lost in the transmission network.

If we do all drive EV's then all we'll need is the electricity generation infrastructure to "make" all that extra power. I'm open to correction but I think we'd need to double our generation capacity if we were to replace all our ICE vehicles with EV's.
They are a great idea but until we have a sustainable clear power supply then they aren't really solving the problem as you are using the same fuel, you're just burning it in a power plant rather than in the car (and losing that 40% through the transmission network).


----------



## Zenith63 (Tuesday at 5:35 PM)

Ah please @Purple statements to that effect have been made so many times on AAM, numerous times in this thread alone, and refuted with readily available data/studies. Let’s not take yet another useful thread into pointless circular discussions that will inevitably end up closed by the moderators.


----------



## bstop (Tuesday at 6:32 PM)

Electric vehicles: carmakers put the brakes on costly revolution
					

British and European manufacturers are slowing down production of electric cars and vans because they are too expensive for the vast majority of motorists, a government agency has said.The Advanced Propulsion Centre, which disburses taxpayer money to help push the automotive industry to a zero-emiss




					www.thetimes.co.uk
				




Battery powered car experiment starts to wobble.


----------



## Blackrock1 (Tuesday at 6:48 PM)

bstop said:


> Electric vehicles: carmakers put the brakes on costly revolution
> 
> 
> British and European manufacturers are slowing down production of electric cars and vans because they are too expensive for the vast majority of motorists, a government agency has said.The Advanced Propulsion Centre, which disburses taxpayer money to help push the automotive industry to a zero-emiss
> ...


Is the article not about a decrease in production in the uk ?


----------



## joe sod (Tuesday at 8:33 PM)

Some good points made above about green bonds financing electric car research and manufacturing for the big auto makers like GM, they are forecasting 400,000 electric cars by 2024 but they manufactured almost 3 million cars in 2019 (pre covid figures) . I am sceptical about forecasts by big organisations regarding what they expect to do about the "green transition" .
Afterall it is in their interests to give the most optimistic forecasts regarding this transition as that is what everyone wants to hear. However at the end of all these forecasts there is a "cautionionary note" that they can only be held accountable for historical figures from the past but not for forecasts about the future.

I remember at the beginning of 2020 especially around Davos in January 2020 when Greta Thurnberg was in attendance , there were all these announcements by the huge financial funds like Blackrock and the Norwegian Sovereign fund that they were divesting themselves of their fossil fuel investments, it got big headlines and contributed to the further slump in oil prices back then.
Lo and behold when you google how this divestment is now proceeding

"Blackrock tells UK 'no' to halting investments in coal ,oil and gas"
"Can Norway's $1.3 trillion oil fund actually give up oil"
As the saying goes words are cheap


----------



## bstop (Tuesday at 10:09 PM)

BritishOTE="Blackrock1, post: 1803510, member: 98970"]
Is the article not about a decrease in production in the uk ?
[/QUOTE]

This is not just a UK phenomenon, the centre said. It is now expecting electric vehicle production across Europe to be 1 million units lower than expected at 12 million, thanks to the impacts of the rising cost of living, inflation and the vehicles’ affordability.


----------



## Purple (Wednesday at 8:01 AM)

Zenith63 said:


> Ah please @Purple statements to that effect have been made so many times on AAM, numerous times in this thread alone, and refuted with readily available data/studies. Let’s not take yet another useful thread into pointless circular discussions that will inevitably end up closed by the moderators.


I'm a big fan of EV's. If I was buying a new car I'd get one. They aren't the problem. 
Our electricity generation infrastructure is the problem. How the power is generated that goes into our EV's is not in dispute.


----------



## Purple (Wednesday at 8:04 AM)

Blackrock1 said:


> Is the article not about a decrease in production in the uk ?


What British companies make EV's?
There are foreign owned companies making cars in the UK but what British ones are there?


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## Blackrock1 (Wednesday at 8:40 AM)

Purple said:


> What British companies make EV's?
> There are foreign owned companies making cars in the UK but what British ones are there?


 Who said there were British companies making cars? As i said its about a decrease in production in the UK.


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## Blackrock1 (Wednesday at 8:41 AM)

Purple said:


> I'm a big fan of EV's. If I was buying a new car I'd get one. They aren't the problem.
> Our electricity generation infrastructure is the problem. How the power is generated that goes into our EV's is not in dispute.


The % of renewables on the grid is only going one way, the grid will have to be upgraded to accommodate and that is also happening, whats your point? that we just wait until all of that is done to move to EVs?


----------



## fidelcastro (Wednesday at 9:24 AM)

PGF2016 said:


> There's a 1.5km road between the estate I live in and a local primary school. It's bumper to bumper every morning before the start of school. There are kids walking for 15 minutes every day to and from school breathing in toxic fumes along that road.
> 
> Can you see how the planet would benefit if fossil fuel cars in this scenario are replaced all over the world?


yes, if the parents stopped driving their kids to school, and the kids walked/cycled.  Just because in Eire its the common way, doesnt apply to the rest of the world.


----------



## fidelcastro (Wednesday at 9:26 AM)

Mamamia22 said:


> The world plans to burn more than 8 billion tonnes of coal in 2023. More than any previous year in history. Coal is cheap and readily available. It doesn’t depend on sun or wind. Germany is reopening coal fired electricity plants. Renewables are too expensive to set up and not a priority right now with debt so high, healthcare in crisis and war still ongoing. With rising unit costs of electricity EVs are down the list of priorities in my view. At least you know at the diesel pump where you stand. Most are dreading their winter utility bills right now.


yes, you know you are riching those lovely despots of the world, saudi, qatar, ruzzia...


----------



## Purple (Wednesday at 10:17 AM)

Blackrock1 said:


> Who said there were British companies making cars? As i said its about a decrease in production in the UK.


The headline said it.


----------



## Purple (Wednesday at 10:22 AM)

Blackrock1 said:


> The % of renewables on the grid is only going one way, the grid will have to be upgraded to accommodate and that is also happening, whats your point? that we just wait until all of that is done to move to EVs?


Well keeping your existing car for the moment would probably be a good idea from an environmental point of view considering the carbon footprint of the manufacturing process for EV's, particularly those using batteries made in China, and the current fuel mix of our electricity generation network. If you are buying a new car then an EV is the best option. If you are buying a replacement car then a second hand car is the best option. 
At some stage in the future we'll start using more reliable green energy from France but at the moment there are no plans to build any reliable green energy generation capacity in Ireland, rather we will continue to rely on wind power.


----------



## Purple (Wednesday at 10:29 AM)

fidelcastro said:


> yes, you know you are riching those lovely despots of the world, saudi, qatar, ruzzia...


Yep, we should be building more Nuclear power stations. That is the only reliable green energy we have. Instead we poison the air with the by-product of coal and oil power stations and kill thousands of people. It has been estimated that 8.7 million people die every year from the pollution caused by burning fossil fuels but we are frightened of nuclear power. Madness.


----------



## Blackrock1 (Wednesday at 10:52 AM)

Purple said:


> Well keeping your existing car for the moment would probably be a good idea from an environmental point of view considering the carbon footprint of the manufacturing process for EV's, particularly those using batteries made in China, and the current fuel mix of our electricity generation network. If you are buying a new car then an EV is the best option. If you are buying a replacement car then a second hand car is the best option.
> At some stage in the future we'll start using more reliable green energy from France but at the moment there are no plans to build any reliable green energy generation capacity in Ireland, rather we will continue to rely on wind power.


There are 100s of wind and solar projects in various stages of development and lots of battery storage facilities also in the works to smooth out the peaks and troughs linked to those renewable sources. Fear not.


----------



## Purple (Wednesday at 11:09 AM)

Blackrock1 said:


> There are 100s of wind and solar projects in various stages of development and lots of battery storage facilities also in the works to smooth out the peaks and troughs linked to those renewable sources. Fear not.


They won't work. If the wind isn't blowing then none of the turbines turn and battery storage is expensive, environmentally damaging and short term. Pumped storage is a better solution at the moment but wind and batteries won't get us through those weeks that we often get in January and February when the sky is clear and the air is still. 
In a grid powered by wind and solar there needs to be 40% extra redundant capacity that can be turned on when required. Fossil fuel stations are the only option for that. That is why the oil companies are all pushing wind and solar. Nuclear power doesn't need that extra capacity and so perfectly complements wind and solar.

So, EV's are great if you are buying a new car but they only really become environmentally friendly when they are powered from a grid that has a nuclear & renewable energy mix. Maybe the interconnector to France will be the solution and will complement the nuclear we currently consume that is generated in Wales.

In the meantime the most environmentally friendly thing I can do is keep my second hand diesel car and use it as little as possible.


----------



## RichInSpirit (Wednesday at 11:19 AM)

Why I’ve pulled the plug on my electric car
					

As I watch my family strike out on foot across the fields into driving rain and gathering darkness, my wife holding each child’s hand, our new year plans in rui




					www.thetimes.co.uk
				




Interesting piece from UK EV owner.


----------



## Blackrock1 (Wednesday at 11:46 AM)

Purple said:


> They won't work. If the wind isn't blowing then none of the turbines turn and battery storage is expensive, environmentally damaging and short term. Pumped storage is a better solution at the moment but wind and batteries won't get us through those weeks that we often get in January and February when the sky is clear and the air is still.
> In a grid powered by wind and solar there needs to be 40% extra redundant capacity that can be turned on when required. Fossil fuel stations are the only option for that. That is why the oil companies are all pushing wind and solar. Nuclear power doesn't need that extra capacity and so perfectly complements wind and solar.
> 
> So, EV's are great if you are buying a new car but they only really become environmentally friendly when they are powered from a grid that has a nuclear & renewable energy mix. Maybe the interconnector to France will be the solution and will complement the nuclear we currently consume that is generated in Wales.
> ...


we are unlikely to have a nuclear plant on the island, what we will have is a lot of renewables, a lot of storage and some flexible ccgt to support.

i agree with your final sentiment in principal but the less tailpipe emissions we have the better imo.


----------



## Purple (Wednesday at 11:50 AM)

RichInSpirit said:


> Why I’ve pulled the plug on my electric car
> 
> 
> As I watch my family strike out on foot across the fields into driving rain and gathering darkness, my wife holding each child’s hand, our new year plans in rui
> ...


That's already been discussed.


bstop said:


> Why I’ve pulled the plug on my electric car
> 
> 
> As I watch my family strike out on foot across the fields into driving rain and gathering darkness, my wife holding each child’s hand, our new year plans in rui
> ...



That article is a bit of a Jeremy Clarkson style rant. It serves him right for buying a F-Pace. They are rubbish. EV's are the future but without a massive increase in our power generation capacity and an almost total shift away from hydrocarbons they aren't the solution.

It's a bit like the way we have high environmental standards in the EU for food production and as a result only produce about one third of the food we could produce so we import the rest of what we need from countries with much lower environmental standards. In that case we've just exported our pollution. It's similar with EV's.


----------



## Purple (Wednesday at 11:53 AM)

Blackrock1 said:


> we are unlikely to have a nuclear plant on the island, what we will have is a lot of renewables, a lot of storage and some flexible ccgt to support.


Unfortunately I have to agree with you. 


Blackrock1 said:


> the less tailpipe emissions we have the better imo.


Yes, which is why EV's are a good thing but they are not a solution on their own. If you do moderate mileage then the most environmentally thing you can do is keep the car you have. If you are buying an EV then find our where the battery is made. If it's made in China then don't buy the car if your purchase is for environmental reasons.


----------



## joe sod (Wednesday at 12:05 PM)

Blackrock1 said:


> There are 100s of wind and solar projects in various stages of development and lots of battery storage facilities also in the works to smooth out the peaks and troughs linked to those renewable sources. Fear not.


The limits of battery power as regards cars don't magically disappear when they are used for grid storage,  as I pointed out above the best batteries can only store a factor of 100times less power than diesel can. At full drawdown battery storage can only last just over an hour. No advances in technology are going to change that . Its a physical constraint of electrical storage not a technology issue thats why hydrogen is still the gold standard  .
The backbone of the grid is still and will be conventional power stations . I have heard anecdotally that the remaining peat power station in the Midlands is actually now being powered by diesel in order to avoid power cuts during peak periods. 
As regards solar , some of the best tillage land in wexford is now being covered in these due to the subsidies, they can never be used for growing crops after these go in due to all the concrete and wiring needed for each individual panel. This is when we need to be growing more crops ,not less to make up for the Ukraine shortfall. The whole thing is barmy


----------



## Purple (Wednesday at 12:30 PM)

Blackrock1 said:


> what we will have is a lot of renewables, a lot of storage and some flexible ccgt to support


As pointed out by @joe sod, battery storage is good for levelling out the peeks and troughs in a single day but of no use when the wind doesn't blow for days or weeks. Therefore we'll end up with the same of more CCGT (Gas and Oil) plants we have now unless we generate or import Nuclear power.
With two interconnectors we'll still be very vulnerable to sabotage or accidents. At the moment we have only one and no large scale LPG storage capacity.


----------



## Blackrock1 (Wednesday at 12:41 PM)

joe sod said:


> The limits of battery power as regards cars don't magically disappear when they are used for grid storage,  as I pointed out above the best batteries can only store a factor of 100times less power than diesel can. At full drawdown battery storage can only last just over an hour. No advances in technology are going to change that . Its a physical constraint of electrical storage not a technology issue thats why hydrogen is still the gold standard  .
> The backbone of the grid is still and will be conventional power stations . I have heard anecdotally that the remaining peat power station in the Midlands is actually now being powered by diesel in order to avoid power cuts during peak periods.
> As regards solar , some of the best tillage land in wexford is now being covered in these due to the subsidies, they can never be used for growing crops after these go in due to all the concrete and wiring needed for each individual panel. This is when we need to be growing more crops ,not less to make up for the Ukraine shortfall. The whole thing is barmy


what do you mean at full drawdown batter storage can only last an hour?


----------



## Blackrock1 (Wednesday at 12:45 PM)

Purple said:


> As pointed out by @joe sod, battery storage is good for levelling out the peeks and troughs in a single day but of no use when the wind doesn't blow for days or weeks. Therefore we'll end up with the same of more CCGT (Gas and Oil) plants we have now unless we generate or import Nuclear power.
> With two interconnectors we'll still be very vulnerable to sabotage or accidents. At the moment we have only one and no large scale LPG storage capacity.


how likely is it that wind doesnt blow for weeks and we have no power generated from solar plants? 

even during december where we had a cold snap and very low wind speeds, even on the worst days there was wind generation:








						Wind Generation in Ireland December 2022 and full year
					

No records were broken in December for wind generation in Ireland or for the year as a whole. While wind output for 2022 was higher than 2021 it didn’t reach the record year of 2020 in term of either GWhs generated or share of demand reached but it was, however, the second highest year for both.




					www.linkedin.com


----------



## joe sod (Wednesday at 1:49 PM)

Blackrock1 said:


> what do you mean at full drawdown batter storage can only last an hour?


At full constant load like a power station. If you Google the poolbeg  battery facility it says it can provide 75MW for up to 2 hours, it covers 1.5 hectares, that's a hell of alot of battery. 
The small Midlands power station in edenderry is rated  at 130MW maximum output , Moneypoint has an output of 905MW.
You can see from those figures that no battery facility can replace conventional power stations


----------



## Blackrock1 (Wednesday at 2:16 PM)

joe sod said:


> At full constant load like a power station. If you Google the poolbeg  battery facility it says it can provide 75MW for up to 2 hours, it covers 1.5 hectares, that's a hell of alot of battery.
> The small Midlands power station in edenderry is rated  at 130MW maximum output , Moneypoint has an output of 905MW.
> You can see from those figures that no battery facility can replace conventional power stations


you still aren't being clear as to what point you are making and no one ever said a batter would replace a conventional power station, it is for storage not to replace production. Battery technology will improve over time as well.

anyway this thread has gone the way of the rest about EVs we are back to talking about nuclear power.... or why renewables cant work,


----------



## Purple (Wednesday at 2:30 PM)

Blackrock1 said:


> how likely is it that wind doesnt blow for weeks and we have no power generated from solar plants?
> 
> even during december where we had a cold snap and very low wind speeds, even on the worst days there was wind generation:
> 
> ...


The SEAI data gives renewables at 11.6% of the total enegry we used in 2021. Wind made up 50.9% of that with Solar accounting for less than 2% so the SEAI date says that wind generated less than 6% of what we consumed in 2021.
That's the total energy we used, not the electricity we generated. It includes home heating, transport, industry etc. Those are the figures that matter. That's the energy we need to replace with something other than hydrocarbons. Are we going to have 20 times as many wind and solar farms?
Nuclear requires an average of 0.3 m2 per MWh generated. Dense Wind farms, where turbines are close together, require 8 m2 per MWh, farms where agriculture is carried out between them can require close to 200 m2 per MWh. Solar requires around 20 m2 per MWh and that's probably higher in Ireland.


----------



## Purple (Wednesday at 2:34 PM)

Blackrock1 said:


> you still aren't being clear as to what point you are making and no one ever said a batter would replace a conventional power station, it is for storage not to replace production. Battery technology will improve over time as well.


It can only store power for hours. It is useful for level loading but not as a reserve of back-up power.


Blackrock1 said:


> anyway this thread has gone the way of the rest about EVs we are back to talking about nuclear power.... or why renewables cant work,


The attraction of EV's is that they are better for the environment. They are if the power they consume is generated using clean sources. Given that renewables contribute around 30% to the existing generation capacity and 40% of the power generated is lost in the transmission network it is debatable as to whether EV's are any better for the environment than ICE's.
I'm a strong believer in climate change and I do regard it as the biggest threat the world faces so I with the above wasn't so.


----------



## Firefly (Wednesday at 3:33 PM)

One benefit for EVs over ICE cars is that they move the harmful emissions away from urban areas to sparsely populated areas (where the power generators are located), so you would imagine that lots fewer people would die from / suffer from respiratory illnesses.


----------



## Purple (Wednesday at 3:50 PM)

Firefly said:


> One benefit for EVs over ICE cars is that they move the harmful emissions away from urban areas to sparsely populated areas (where the power generators are located), so you would imagine that lots fewer people would die from / suffer from respiratory illnesses.


Burning solid fuels in domestic fires produce more harmful emissions than car exhausts in Ireland. Car exhaust produces far more greenhouse gases.


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## Blackrock1 (Wednesday at 4:58 PM)

Purple said:


> Burning solid fuels in domestic fires produce more harmful emissions than car exhausts in Ireland. Car exhaust produces far more greenhouse gases.


diesel particulates arent great for the lungs and unfortunately due to government policy we had an outsized no of diesels on the road.


----------



## Blackrock1 (Wednesday at 5:01 PM)

Purple said:


> The SEAI data gives renewables at 11.6% of the total enegry we used in 2021. Wind made up 50.9% of that with Solar accounting for less than 2% so the SEAI date says that wind generated less than 6% of what we consumed in 2021.
> That's the total energy we used, not the electricity we generated. It includes home heating, transport, industry etc. Those are the figures that matter. That's the energy we need to replace with something other than hydrocarbons. Are we going to have 20 times as many wind and solar farms?
> Nuclear requires an average of 0.3 m2 per MWh generated. Dense Wind farms, where turbines are close together, require 8 m2 per MWh, farms where agriculture is carried out between them can require close to 200 m2 per MWh. Solar requires around 20 m2 per MWh and that's probably higher in Ireland.


are we going to have 20x wind and solar farms, i would say yes we are.


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## T McGibney (Wednesday at 5:04 PM)

Blackrock1 said:


> are we going to have 20x wind and solar farms, i would say yes we are.


Where can they be put without causing serious environmental despoilation?


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## Zenith63 (Wednesday at 5:09 PM)

Purple said:


> The attraction of EV's is that they are better for the environment. They are if the power they consume is generated using clean sources. Given that renewables contribute around 30% to the existing generation capacity and 40% of the power generated is lost in the transmission network it is debatable as to whether EV's are any better for the environment than ICE's


Purple can you please be specific about what you think is debatable? There are umpteen scientific studies that show the tipping point for when EVs are cleaner than ICE vehicles was surpassed years ago in places like Ireland. I don’t understand what you think is debatable unless you feel you know more than these researchers?

Some articles to get started - 









						Are electric cars all that green? Yes, this chart shows you how
					

A common misconception is that electric vehicles aren't much cleaner than normal engines, but the ICCT says this isn't true.




					www.weforum.org
				






			https://www.transportenvironment.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/TEs-EV-life-cycle-analysis-LCA.pdf
		


An online tool where you can compare using the latest data from Ireland’s grid and use a Chinese made battery for comparison - 








						How much CO2 can electric cars really save?
					

To answer this question we have developed a tool that compiles all the most up-to-date data on CO2 emissions.




					www.transportenvironment.org


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## Purple (Wednesday at 6:02 PM)

Zenith63 said:


> Purple can you please be specific about what you think is debatable? There are umpteen scientific studies that show the tipping point for when EVs are cleaner than ICE vehicles was surpassed years ago in places like Ireland. I don’t understand what you think is debatable unless you feel you know more than these researchers?
> 
> Some articles to get started -
> 
> ...


I'm aware of those studies but what I don't see is an allowance for the energy loss through the transmission grid. That needs to be factored in for the comparison to be meaningful. Assume a conservative 30% loss, and wind is a far more dispersed method of generation and is generated further away from population centres so for wind that figure could be much higher. That means that EV's need around 140% of the power they consume to be generated. That matters. 

Petrol cars only convert around 25% of the energy stored in the fuel into energy so that's bad but how efficient are the power stations that generated the 70% of the electricity that comes from hydrocarbons?

I've not seen the full data and it seems that most of the information is coming from people with a dog in the fight.



If we can move to renewables and have a surplus of power then energy loss doesn't matter but at a global level we are increasing our energy consumption faster that we are decarbonising it. Therefore it doesn't matter whether we use our limited amount of renewable energy to light and heat our homes or to run our cars. Either way it's used up and the majority of the rest is generated by burning Hydrocarbons. Therefore decarbonising the energy grid is what really matters.  



Zenith63 said:


> An online tool where you can compare using the latest data from Ireland’s grid and use a Chinese made battery for comparison -
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The information linked from that article is very interesting. There are lots of assumptions, and how could there not be in a forward looking article, but it does seem optimistic. 
The table showing Life-cycle carbon intensity of electricity sources is also very interesting. 
gCO₂e per KWh for Coal is 997. For Gas it's 434. For Onshore wind it's 12 (offshore is 14) but for Nuclear it's 5. Nuclear is by far the most environmentally friendly method of energy generation.  

For most of us who want to make a change to help the environment reducing your meat consumption by 50% would have a bigger impact than getting rid of a perfectly good petrol or diesel car and buying a new electric one. But if you do need a new car (as opposed to a second hand one) then by all means do buy an EV.

If it's the environment you are concerned about then* Reduce *your meat consumption, *Reuse *your existing car and *Re-cycle *your bicycle. 
If all you do is buy an EV even though your existing car is working fine then you are just virtue signalling.


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## Blackrock1 (Wednesday at 7:55 PM)

T McGibney said:


> Where can they be put without causing serious environmental despoilation?


How do you define environmental despoliation ?


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## T McGibney (Wednesday at 9:15 PM)

Blackrock1 said:


> How do you define environmental despoliation ?



Is it not a self-evident concept? 

Put it this way, every time there is word of windfarm development in (1) a scenic area, or (2) close to existing population settlements, there tends to be uproar.


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## Blackrock1 (Thursday at 8:57 AM)

T McGibney said:


> Is it not a self-evident concept?
> 
> Put it this way, every time there is word of windfarm development in (1) a scenic area, or (2) close to existing population settlements, there tends to be uproar.


we have plenty of suitable locations for wind farms and plenty of scope for offshore wind as that tech improves, put it this way people would prefer to have a wind farm proximate to them than a nuclear or coal plant.


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## Purple (Thursday at 9:08 AM)

Blackrock1 said:


> we have plenty of suitable locations for wind farms and plenty of scope for offshore wind as that tech improves, put it this way people would prefer to have a wind farm proximate to them than a nuclear or coal plant.


I'd have no problem with a Nuclear plan near me. I'd have a big problem with a coal plant. I think wind turbines are beautiful but I wouldn't like to hear one or have it casting an shadow flicker on my house.


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## T McGibney (Thursday at 10:40 AM)

Blackrock1 said:


> we have plenty of suitable locations for wind farms


Okay, list three of them that are sufficiently suitable so as to be unlikely to be protested or objected to by either local residents or conservationists.



Blackrock1 said:


> put it this way people would prefer to have a wind farm proximate to them than a nuclear or coal plant.


Red herring.


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## Blackrock1 (Thursday at 10:43 AM)

T McGibney said:


> Okay, list three of them that are sufficiently suitable so as to be unlikely to be protested or objected to by either local residents or conservationists.
> 
> 
> Red herring.


List three locations suitable for wind farms? you do realise there are dozens of windfarms in various states of development with planning etc?


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## T McGibney (Thursday at 10:46 AM)

Blackrock1 said:


> List three locations suitable for wind farms? you do realise there are dozens of windfarms in various states of development with planning etc?


I know that. You claimed "we have plenty of suitable locations for wind farms" .  (I'd assumed you had meant currently undeveloped locations.) If your claim is correct, surely you must know of at least three examples that won't be protested?


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## Blackrock1 (Thursday at 11:07 AM)

T McGibney said:


> I know that. You claimed "we have plenty of suitable locations for wind farms" .  (I'd assumed you had meant currently undeveloped locations.) If your claim is correct, surely you must know of at least three examples that won't be protested?


i think you are being argumentative for the sake of it, lets put it this way, do you think there won't be any more windfarms developed outside the ones currently in the pipeline? If yes, you are wrong, if no what point are you trying to make?

People object against everything, but stuff still gets built.


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## T McGibney (Thursday at 11:18 AM)

Blackrock1 said:


> i think you are being argumentative for the sake of it, lets put it this way, do you think there won't be any more windfarms developed outside the ones currently in the pipeline? If yes, you are wrong, if no what point are you trying to make?


No, it's an obvious point about windfarms that their development attracts protests and objections, and this clearly inhibits their rollout. You claimed that, notwithstanding this, "we have plenty of suitable locations for wind farms". I'm just wondering where at least some of these locations are?


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## Itchy (Thursday at 11:36 AM)

joe sod said:


> At full constant load like a power station. If you Google the poolbeg  battery facility it says it can provide 75MW for up to 2 hours, it covers 1.5 hectares, that's a hell of alot of battery.
> The small Midlands power station in edenderry is rated  at 130MW maximum output , Moneypoint has an output of 905MW.
> You can see from those figures that no battery facility can replace conventional power stations



While not in widespread use, vehicle to grid technology is in development. The technology is in current production models, see Nissan Leaf and Ford F-150. 877 Nissan Leaf's were sold in 2022 in Ireland, assume 50kWh batteries that 43 MW potential battery capacity in the existing fleet. If we get to a stage that half of the annual new car purchases have 50kWh batteries with V2G, that's 2500 MW battery capacity connected to the grid p.a. That's a long way out but not unobtainable. Even if car batteries connected to the home provide the power for peak use within that home, that is a substantial reduction in the demands on the power grid.


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## Blackrock1 (Thursday at 11:39 AM)

T McGibney said:


> No, it's an obvious point about windfarms that their development attracts protests and objections, and this clearly inhibits their rollout. You claimed that, notwithstanding this, "we have plenty of suitable locations for wind farms". I'm just wondering where at least some of these locations are?



you are being awkward for the sake of it and not making a whole lot of sense. I'll leave this discussion where its at.


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## T McGibney (Thursday at 11:40 AM)

Blackrock1 said:


> you are being awkward for the sake of it and not making a whole lot of sense. I'll leave this discussion where its at.


No, I'm not. You made a claim and are clearly unable to substantiate it so you've attacked my motive in questioning it.


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## Brendan Burgess (Thursday at 11:55 AM)

That's all folks


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