# Lame attempt to fluff us up for an atm withdrawal tax



## z104 (3 Sep 2010)

I thought it was lame of Dermot Ahern to link the free use of cash machines to withdraw your money and the abduction of bank staff.

He basically said that banks hold money so people can use the atm machine to withdraw cash instead of using credit cards of laser cards to pay for items.


I get the feeling he was fluffing us up to expect a new atm withdrawal tax but using a discusting exuse.


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## colin79ie (3 Sep 2010)

Don't we already pay a tax on our 'ATM' cards?

Also, aren't we charged a fee by the bank for each withdrawl?

So rather than the banks holding large amounts of cash for 'our cash withdrawl needs' (apparently we are the biggest cash users in Europe), we should not put money into banks in case we need a bit of cash back out again? 

That's it, I'm taking the stuffing out of the mattress to avoid yet aother tax.


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## shnaek (3 Sep 2010)

So they continue to treat us like a bunch of idiots. No change there.


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## Firefly (3 Sep 2010)

As the business correspondent on rte pointed out last night, the majority of cash in branches is to serve the commercial sector, which do not use ATMs and introducing an ATM charge would have little impact on the volume of cash in the branch.

If Ahern & Co really wanted to end tiger kidnapping perhaps they could introduce a special sentence of 20 years (no early release) for tiger kidnappings instead?


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## pixiebean22 (3 Sep 2010)

As it stands, you can pay a fixed fee per year or a fee per atm withdrawal (think it's 15c or something like that)


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## theresa1 (3 Sep 2010)

The reason I dont use my atm card is because of the €2.50 Government charge per year so I already dont use the hole in the wall and now he want's the bank's to charge as well. I dont have my own credit card because of the €30 Government charge but share a card so I only pay €15. I dont have a laser/debit card again because of the €2.50 Government charge. I dont have a cheque book -again the Goverment charge.

It's all the public's fault these robberies -nothing to do with the worst Government ever in power.


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## DB74 (3 Sep 2010)

theresa1 said:


> The reason I dont use my atm card is because of the €2.50 Government charge per year so I already dont use the hole in the wall and now he want's the bank's to charge as well. I dont have my own credit card because of the €30 Government charge but share a card so I only pay €15. I dont have a laser/debit card again because of the €2.50 Government charge. I dont have a cheque book -again the Goverment charge.


 
What do you do when you want to buy something?


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## theresa1 (3 Sep 2010)

Good question - I pay bill's for my mother online and she pay's for these with Cash to me so this is how i get cash. My mother also does not use atm,laser again for the same reason's as me and share's the credit card charge with me.


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## liaconn (3 Sep 2010)

Maybe I'm thick, but how is an ATM charge going to stop thugs from holding bank officials hostage?


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## z104 (3 Sep 2010)

liaconn said:


> Maybe I'm thick, but how is an ATM charge going to stop thugs from holding bank officials hostage?


 

Dermot Ahern certainly thinks you (we) are thick anyway.

I think a better way to stop these kidnappings is to stop the revolving door and give proper sentences to repeat offenders. When these guys are caught I bet you will hear that they had 20 or 30 previous convictions!


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## pixiebean22 (3 Sep 2010)

Give proper sentences full stop.


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## TarfHead (3 Sep 2010)

Is this just something he thought of on the spot, e.g. was this idea in his head at 10am yesterday morning ?

It suggests it was, cos it's daft !


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## Shawady (3 Sep 2010)

Ahern on just on radio one. He is not planning an ATM fee but wants incentives for people to use their laser card for more transaction, thereby reducing the need for large sums of money in banks. He wants us to become "a less cash society".
He stated that irish people take on average €6,500 a year from bank in cash, whereas in Denmark the figure is €500.


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## censuspro (3 Sep 2010)

Rather than punish the bank robbers by introducing minimim mandatory sentencing for this type of crime, the govt wants to pubish sonsumers for using ATM machines.


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## Graham_07 (3 Sep 2010)

Shawady said:


> He wants us to become "a less cash society".



I thought that  government measures were already well on the way to achieving this.


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## liaconn (3 Sep 2010)

Shawady said:


> Ahern on just on radio one. He is not planning an ATM fee but wants incentives for people to use their laser card for more transaction, thereby reducing the need for large sums of money in banks. He wants us to become "a less cash society".
> He stated that irish people take on average €6,500 a year from bank in cash, whereas in Denmark the figure is €500.


 

 I don't see how €500 a year could cover all the minor purchases (a newspaper, a sandwich, a box of disprin, a couple of bits from Tesco) that people make in a year. Do Danes use laser cards for this kind of stuff as well I wonder, or are they just super organised at buying everything in bulk?


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## Towger (3 Sep 2010)

Shawady said:


> Ahern on just on radio one. He is not planning an ATM fee but wants incentives for people to use their laser card for more transaction, thereby reducing the need for large sums of money in banks. He wants us to become "a less cash society".


 
Was that the same Ahern, who does have any bank accounts?


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## Shawady (3 Sep 2010)

It is the same Ahern that only a few months ago was complaining about the high amount of money people have in savings and now he is complaining about people taking cash out of the bank to spend it.

@Liaconn. I aggree is €500 a low amount. It is a tenner a week which seems paltry and you can hardly ever get €10 from an ATM anyway.


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## Staples (3 Sep 2010)

It's a bit like forcing people to ditch their cars without improving public transport.

If the government wants to do something constructive, they should faciliate the introduction of electronic alternatives to cash - maybe someting like an electronic purse that would operate like a Luas card.


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## theresa1 (3 Sep 2010)

Incentives Mr Ahern - ok let's start with the removal of the following charges - credit,laser/debit card,atm,writing cheque's Government stamp duties in December's Budget - let's see what happens then shall we.


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## RonanC (3 Sep 2010)

Two main reasons Irish people use ATM's alot is

1. Many places refuse to accept Laser or Credit card payments - such as, take aways, hair dressers, small local shops, food stalls, fast food outlets and so on. 

2. A lot of ATM's will only give you minimum of €50 which means you have to withdraw this amount, and therefore the amount everyone withdraws over a weekend increases dramatically. In Germany, if you wish to withdraw €50 from an ATM, it will give you the €50 in change, ie; 2x€5, 2x€10 and 1x€20. It is still the same €50 but it also means you can withdraw €10 if you wanted.


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## Complainer (3 Sep 2010)

Firefly said:


> If Ahern & Co really wanted to end tiger kidnapping perhaps they could introduce a special sentence of 20 years (no early release) for tiger kidnappings instead?


Do you really think that tiger kidnappers do a reasoned 'cost-benefit' type analysis before deciding whether to proceed with their adventures?


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## dereko1969 (3 Sep 2010)

liaconn said:


> I don't see how €500 a year could cover all the minor purchases (a newspaper, a sandwich, a box of disprin, a couple of bits from Tesco) that people make in a year. Do Danes use laser cards for this kind of stuff as well I wonder, or are they just super organised at buying everything in bulk?


 
I was in Finland recently and noticed a much higher use of laser cards for transactions where we would normally use cash - pubs, newsagents etc

My mother recently was the victim of shoulder surfing and had her laser card stolen and significant amounts spent on it over a weekend, she's gone back to using cash, at least with cash if it's stolen that's it, with a laser or credit card you can have significant multiples stolen.


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## liaconn (3 Sep 2010)

It would be very hard to keep tabs on your finances if you were using your laser for bits and pieces several times a day. How often have you taken €100 out of the ATM in the morning and at 3pm realised 'Janey, I've only a tenner left. What have I bought?' and started going back over your purchases to account for the €90 you've spent. You wouldn't get that reality check if you were just passing your laser card over the counter ten times a day.


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## Firefly (3 Sep 2010)

Complainer said:


> Do you really think that tiger kidnappers do a reasoned 'cost-benefit' type analysis before deciding whether to proceed with their adventures?


 
I think they would if long sentences were involved. For crime to pay it has to outweigh the probability of getting caught and the fine for getting caught. My point refers to the latter.


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## Complainer (3 Sep 2010)

Firefly said:


> For crime to pay it has to outweigh the probability of getting caught and the fine for getting caught.


I think you are overestimating the amount of reasoned thinking that goes into these decisions.


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## Firefly (3 Sep 2010)

Complainer said:


> I think you are overestimating the amount of reasoned thinking that goes into these decisions.


 
On the contrary, we're talking about organised crime here where reasoned thinking and meticilous planning are the norm. If, for example, mandatory life sentences were handed down for these crimes, I think it would make it a lot more difficult for these crime gangs to recuit


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## pixiebean22 (3 Sep 2010)

Have to agree with Firefly, in particular the most recent tiger kidnapping seemed very well organised and the fact that the culprits used a 10 D car (as reported) would suggest that they're not a couple of idiots using an old banger and going in with tights over their heads.


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## Arabella (3 Sep 2010)

Most places take debit/credit cards these days. So as time goes on ATMs will be surplus to requirements. Who wants to carry a purse of notes/heavy coins about.


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## Complainer (3 Sep 2010)

pixiebean22 said:


> Have to agree with Firefly, in particular the most recent tiger kidnapping seemed very well organised and the fact that the culprits used a 10 D car (as reported) would suggest that they're not a couple of idiots using an old banger and going in with tights over their heads.


Have you considered the possibility that they used a stolen car? Does stealing a 10D car show their intelligence?



Firefly said:


> On the contrary, we're talking about organised crime here where reasoned thinking and meticilous planning are the norm. If, for example, mandatory life sentences were handed down for these crimes, I think it would make it a lot more difficult for these crime gangs to recuit


 
Have these long sentances worked anywhere else? The last time I dug around on this, the infamous '3 strikes and then life' policy in California has failed miserably to reduce crime levels.


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## Firefly (3 Sep 2010)

Complainer said:


> Have these long sentances worked anywhere else?


Good question and tbh I'm not sure of the answer. I think tiger kidnapping is relatively new so not sure on the data available. Also, if we had to look elsewhere for evidence on everything we'd never pioneer anything. We introduced the smoking ban ahead of most of our European neighbours for example. 

Why not give it a whirl and see what happens? In my book the worst that can happen is that some scumbag who has psychologically destroyed a family gets put away for an awefully long time.


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## Marietta (3 Sep 2010)

I would be embarrassed to use my laser card to buy just one  sandwich or a bar of chocolate from a supermarket, I mean the time it takes the transaction to be completed sometimes takes ages and then I have to put up with the signs and grunts of those behind me.

The banks put in ATM's to eliminate queues within the bank now they are considering charging another tax so what will happen, people will start going into the banks again to take out their few bob.  I think it is a pretty lame idea and as someone else posted above the best option is to impose 20 and 30 years custodial sentences to those bullies who carry out tiger kidnappings and only then will that eliminate the problem.  Zero tolerance should mean zero tolerance.


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## roker (3 Sep 2010)

If they charge for withdrawing money, people will want cash payment so that they do not put money in the bank, the black economy will thrive.


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## Complainer (6 Sep 2010)

Firefly said:


> Good question and tbh I'm not sure of the answer. I think tiger kidnapping is relatively new so not sure on the data available. Also, if we had to look elsewhere for evidence on everything we'd never pioneer anything. We introduced the smoking ban ahead of most of our European neighbours for example.
> 
> Why not give it a whirl and see what happens? In my book the worst that can happen is that some scumbag who has psychologically destroyed a family gets put away for an awefully long time.



I've had my fill of 'give it a whirl and see what happens' policies. Check out the article by Frank McDonald in the Irish Times about the cost and damage done by McCreevy's 'give it a whirl' decentralisation policy. Personally, I'd prefer to see a well thought out policy based on local and international best practices, rather than just 'give it a whirl'. Your estimation of "the worst that can happen" is short-sighted. The most obvious flaw is that you ignore the extra cost of keeping people in prison for life, and the 'lost opportunity' of this prison place for other purposes.

Let's have some well considered policies. It would make a pleasant change.




roker said:


> If they charge for withdrawing money, people will want cash payment so that they do not put money in the bank, the black economy will thrive.


Very true.


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## Latrade (6 Sep 2010)

Without being privaledge to the mindset of a criminal, I would hazard a guess that the length of a jail sentence is no part of the decision. The main cost benefit analysis is quick bucks Vs getting caught. Increase the detection (and security of staff): reduce the crime rates. You could have a 100 year mandatory sentence, but if only 1 in 10 (I've no idea, I just made that up) kidnappers are ever caught, it makes no odds. 

Some banks still have poor security, especially in smaller branches, some still don't provide adequate training, policies and protection for their keyholders. Instead of addressing that side, it's stick another cost on everyone else. As pointed out, it's not the ATM customers that are using/generating the large volume of cash stored. 

I've no problems with eventually moving to "cash free", but it'll take a while to get there. We don't even have something as simple as an Oyster Card system and so public transport still require the cash handling. And you can't penalise people for using cash, when they haven't set up a full system of cash free options first. I like the toll and parking systems electronic systems, I wish there were more like it. Until there is, you can't penalise.


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## Firefly (6 Sep 2010)

Complainer said:


> I've had my fill of 'give it a whirl and see what happens' policies. Check out the article by Frank McDonald in the Irish Times about the cost and damage done by McCreevy's 'give it a whirl' decentralisation policy. Personally, I'd prefer to see a well thought out policy based on local and international best practices, rather than just 'give it a whirl'. Your estimation of "the worst that can happen" is short-sighted. The most obvious flaw is that you ignore the extra cost of keeping people in prison for life, and the 'lost opportunity' of this prison place for other purposes.


 
I knew my "give it a whirl" would invoke a response. Perhaps what we need instead is another expensive, dust-gathering report full of best practices sitting on a shelf somewhere.

I think the extra cost and "'lost opportunity' of this prison place" would be quite low as a result of very harsh sentencing in the first place.


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## Complainer (6 Sep 2010)

Firefly said:


> I knew my "give it a whirl" would invoke a response. Perhaps what we need instead is another expensive, dust-gathering report full of best practices sitting on a shelf somewhere.


Just in case of any confusion, that's not what I was recommending either.



Firefly said:


> I think the extra cost and "'lost opportunity' of this prison place" would be quite low as a result of very harsh sentencing in the first place.


I genuinely don't get what you're saying here.




Latrade said:


> Some banks still have poor security, especially in smaller branches, some still don't provide adequate training, policies and protection for their keyholders.


Indeed, why aren't the banks using timer-based or remote-control access systems so that the branch staff are just not able to get at large volumes of cash at short notice. This would remove the incentive for this kind of attack completely.


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## Firefly (6 Sep 2010)

Complainer said:


> I genuinely don't get what you're saying here.


 
The point I was making is that IMO very harsh sentencing would act as a deterrent....fewer tiger crimes would be committed, therefore less prison places would be required.


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## Complainer (6 Sep 2010)

Firefly said:


> The point I was making is that IMO very harsh sentencing would act as a deterrent....fewer tiger crimes would be committed, therefore less prison places would be required.




Again, you are making assumptions about a logical process being involved in the planning of these crimes. But regardless, tiger crimes make up a small section of the prison population, so even if the detterent worked in this area, there will still be no shortage of candidates waiting for the space being taken up by the tiger guys.


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## Firefly (6 Sep 2010)

Complainer said:


> Again, you are making assumptions about a logical process being involved in the planning of these crimes.


 

_Please see my 2nd sentence in post #25. Probabilty of getting caught plus sentencing. _



Complainer said:


> But regardless, tiger crimes make up a small section of the prison population, so even if the detterent worked in this area, there will still be no shortage of candidates waiting for the space being taken up by the tiger guys.


 
_Doesn't this mean that there is no additional cost in putting tiger kidnappers behind bars as these spaces would be used anyway? With a limited number of cells we're down to who should get put away. IMO a tiger kidnapper should be above someone who doesn't pay their ESB bill._


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## Complainer (8 Sep 2010)

Firefly said:


> _Doesn't this mean that there is no additional cost in putting tiger kidnappers behind bars as these spaces would be used anyway? With a limited number of cells we're down to who should get put away. IMO a tiger kidnapper should be above someone who doesn't pay their ESB bill._


Depends on the approach taken. If we want to build extra spaces for the tiger guys, then indeed there are extra costs. If we allow the tiger guys to take spaces used by others, there is no incremental cost. There is the opportunity cost of others not being imprisoned. So do we really want keep one in for a long, long time, or keep five guys in for shorter periods. I'm not an expert on this of course - but I would suggest that we really need some expert views before we make changes.


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## Firefly (8 Sep 2010)

Complainer said:


> Depends on the approach taken. If we want to build extra spaces for the tiger guys, then indeed there are extra costs. If we allow the tiger guys to take spaces used by others, there is no incremental cost. There is the opportunity cost of others not being imprisoned. So do we really want keep one in for a long, long time, or keep five guys in for shorter periods. I'm not an expert on this of course - but I would suggest that we really need some expert views before we make changes.


 
I agree with all of this. If it were me, I'd lock them up at the cost of other lesser crimes such as not paying the ESB bill.


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## z104 (8 Sep 2010)

I'd be happy with 

1 kidnapper for 20 years instead of 240 non payment of TV license for a month each

The biggest threat of doing real harm is the kidnapper.


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## Complainer (8 Sep 2010)

Firefly said:


> I agree with all of this. If it were me, I'd lock them up at the cost of other lesser crimes such as not paying the ESB bill.


I don't think there are too many people in Mountjoy for not paying their ESB bill.


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## Firefly (8 Sep 2010)

Complainer said:


> I don't think there are too many people in Mountjoy for not paying their ESB bill.


 
True, and (unfortuantely) there aren't too many tiger kidnappers either.


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