# Is it worth doing an MBA?



## Chiggles (23 Jun 2008)

Hi 

My brother is a civil engineer with 9 years post qualification experience. He is very good at his job and is very well paid (70k) but very disillusioned with the industry (not the economic climate - the industry in general). 

He likes the day to day job but not the deadlines or the builder/developer clients.

He is considering a career change and would like to be able to build on his management experience to date.

Would an MBA be a good route to go? If so, what kind of careers would see an engineering background as beneficial?

Thanks


----------



## Chiggles (26 Jun 2008)

no opinions?


----------



## newirishman (26 Jun 2008)

Some points here from my side:
Learning new stuff to enhance your knowledge is always a good idea. An MBA is _in general_ always useful (although some way say no), of course it depends what you make of it and if you interested enough to keep going for the time you need to finish.
I am slightly irritated about what you write about "but not the deadlines or the builder/developer clients". A management career usually involves a lot of deadlines, and liaising with many stakeholders in a business (employers, banks, client, etc.).
As for your last question - I think an engineering background is always beneficial when heading for a management career.


----------



## Chiggles (26 Jun 2008)

hi

thanks for the reply. I probably didn't explain the point properly. Hes always going on about his firm (not him) being bullied into unreasonable deadlines. I am in the same industry (qs) and dont find this to be the case.

perhaps its because builders see me as someone that can save them money and him as someone that spends it for them!

My main concern here is that hes chucking away a good career.


----------



## jrewing (27 Jun 2008)

He doesn't have to chuck it away... to hedge his bets he could for example do a distance MBA such as with Manchester Business School (which I am doing). This involves doing your reading / assignments evenings and weekends, and spending one week per semester at a workshop in Manchester. Exams can be taken in Dublin.

This will allow him to continue working full-time and broadening his options at the same time. They run branches of the MBA specifically for Engineering Managers, and another for the people in the Construction industry. Perhaps taking the former will allow him to widen his focus.


----------



## amgd28 (27 Jun 2008)

In short. I would advocate passionately towards him doing an MBA. 
I started an MBA in 2004 (part time IEMBA in Smurfit). At the time, I had recently been appointed a chemical plant manager (background chemical engineering) and saw the MBA as a way to move successively up the corporate ladder.........so far, so predictable

What actually happened is that the MBA and more importantly the interaction with sharp, experienced people from all walks of business opened my eyes to what was possible outside of the narrow confines of what I had previously considered.

I started to look at areas where I thought my existing and newly learned skills could be applied in other, higher growth sectors and mapped out what I could do to maximise my return for the effort of the MBA.

When I finished the MBA, I had a number of options in front of me, and the most appealing was to start a business. Long story short, I quit my role in the chemical firm and set up a healthcare technology company, and haven't looked back.
I bounce into the office every day.

Not saying this is everyone's cup of tea, but the options in front of me just exploded while I was doing the MBA.

Caveat is that you need to make everything happen yourself. Nobody is going to tap you on the shoulder to transform your career - you need to pilot the change yourself. There are lots of people who have done MBA's whose career has not changed - these are invariably people who trundled along in the MBA and have since waited for the change to come along rather than forcing it through themselves


----------



## jwestave (2 Mar 2009)

any more opinions would be great...


----------



## Bob_tg (2 Mar 2009)

My view is that for someone with a technical background, it can be a good rounding in terms of management/finance.

However, I'm not sure about the economics of the full-time MBA.  I can't see how taking a year or two out plus the direct cost of the MBA can be recovered with earnings.  Perhaps an "executive" or part-time MBA is the solution.


----------



## wexford dude (3 Mar 2009)

I was a site engineer/senior site engineer for eight years.I moved into civil engineering at the end of 07 - I could see the writing on the wall for apartment blocks, retail, industrial etc.I understand the frustrations your brother experiences - it can be very annoying trying to plan various stages in an organised manner and then have some genious insist that one particular aspect of the project gets finished immediately even though it may not be on the projects critical path.Also dealing with utility providers ESB, Bord Gais can leave one feeling like ''Rainman''.Because of the hands on nature of site engineering I know a number of lads that changed career and became stone masons, shuttering carpenters, tradesman etc.This may also be a possibility if he enjoys working with his hands.
I myself have considered changing career but have not come across a definite path.The Green sector looks interesting but the money appears quite poor.If he is going to change he needs to target a specific area and work the course around it.amgd28 makes a v good point that you will only get out of it what you put into it.If he does a course for the sake of doing a course it may not get him anywhere.Also the cost of doing the course full-time like Bob_tg says may take years to recoup assuming that the course actually leads to more profitable employment.
Personally I am considering moving abroad to the tax-free areas.The benefit would be that I would come home with a lump sum (hopefully) in 3 - 4 years and then review the whole situation.I think it would make any transition alot easier when you have a solid financial platform.
Also I would like to hear from anyone from a civil/site engineer background who has completed a post grad course and changed their career.


----------



## riddles (3 Mar 2009)

Hi all,

I completed a certificate in programming a long time ago.  I took on a Management Role in a multi-national and have about 6 years IT Management experience.  I would like to move into mainstream business management or at least increase my options.  I have spoken to some institutions regarding distance learning (Liverpool and Leicster Uni.) and they have been quite positive that based on experience I would be considered onto an MBA.

Is there any views on having an MBA but no degree - is this odd?

Regards,

R


----------



## whackin (3 Mar 2009)

I lecture on an MBA course, and from what I know from the participants it is a very enriching experience. It's not that you learn new things from books, but you actually learn from your classmates. Your perspectives evolve and you find new ways of looking at problems and opportunities. It is tough but worth it, seems to be the general consensus. 
I'm not sure personally that distance modes offer the richness of classroom based MBA groups though.


----------



## bankrupt (3 Mar 2009)

Is the MBA becoming completely devalued as a qualification?  I have certainly met and worked with some dimwits who have them.   Whackin seems to suggest that the MBA is an expensive networking course rather than rigorous academic study?


----------



## camel (3 Mar 2009)

I would imagine networking is an extremely valuable facet of business life and very encouraged within an MBA. Personally I don't see the MBA qualification as being devalued, if for no other reason than the high cost of entry. 

I don't have one myself but would love to have the resources to do it....but there's a recession on don't ya know!


----------



## Mommah (4 Mar 2009)

I would say YES YES YES.
An MBA is a great qualification for a technical specialist. I don't know if one gets the same added value for accountants or other business trained professionals. 

I did one 14 years ago, it was a radical choice in my industry (healthcare) at that time. It is expensive. I would counsel against distance education as it is the interaction with your peers which is so important.

I took a year out to do it or you could do 2 year part-time.

Personally if you are from a technical/specialised background like I was I would advise going for a general MBA rather than a specialised on eg healthcare focused for healthcare professionals. 

The idea is to broaden your horizons...not mix with more of the same heads. I am from healthcare and had engineers,actuaries, accountants etc in the class....it was HARD work....challenging to work and be graded in groups, but relevant to real-life situations.

It doesn't matter a jot if you don't have a primary degree, if you have good life experience.

Regarding cost effectiveness, I had 10 years much increased salary compared to my peers, so overall yes it was cost effective for me.
After 10 years my peers from my primary degree achieved the same grade as me without the MBA.

I stayed in the same industry and moved up the ladder, but not beyond managing in my speciality. (my choice)

I'm a SAHM now and still find the knowledge I gained in my MBA very useful.


----------



## Bob_tg (4 Mar 2009)

Mommah said:


> Regarding cost effectiveness, I had 10 years much increased salary compared to my peers, so overall yes it was cost effective for me.
> After 10 years my peers from my primary degree achieved the same grade as me without the MBA.


 
Mommah - From a pure financial perspective, are you sure?

If you add the cost of your direct fees and course costs (let's presume 20k) to the missed net salary for the year you were out of work (let's assume 40k), that might come to around 60k cash down for the 10-year period.  

Can you confirm these estimates?  If they are vaguely correct, are you saying that you recovered more than this 60k (~100k gross salary or an average of 10k per annum) in the 10 years after you completed the MBA?  And that any gain you made in salary was completely down to the MBA? 

Additionally, you may have had an 'early mover' advantage.  Would you think the value of the MBA from 10 years ago has not significantly diminished in value as more and more people have gone down this route?


----------



## Mommah (4 Mar 2009)

In today's money, the salary difference between my peers and my MBA'd self is €20k pa gross.

I worked in a very structured industry so it is easier to compare.

The cost when I did it (1995)including living was $20k net.
I have friends who worked abroad with me and saved the same amount and "blew" it on travelling.
My savings were definitely invested more productively.

I definitely had early mover advantage.

Even though I have been a SAHM for a few years. 
My hubby who is a techical person, was promoted up into a management grade....and I believe alot of it was because of our discussions of his work related issues...which were very much informed by my MBA training.
So 2 management careers for the the price of one MBA...being a man of course he earned much more than me. 

So if I were to factor both our promotions in....


----------



## camel (4 Mar 2009)

[broken link removed]

Would it be better to do a distance MBA with a more prestigious college than to do a 'local' MBA?

Manchester Business School is ranked 25th by FT.
Smurfit 98th.


----------



## Mommah (5 Mar 2009)

My bias would be a local MBA for a few reasons.

1. They tend to be cheaper than the "prestigious" universities.

2. The interacton with classmates is more intensive. ( i would check out the caliber and make up of classmates... re diversity of professional background )

3. The usefulness of those classmates as future contacts is greater.


----------



## cork (5 Mar 2009)

I am also pretty disillusioned with my job.

Considering a part time PHD.

There seems to be a complete lack of jobs at the moment. In a perfect world - I  would prefer not to go back to study but the job is seriously getting me down.


----------



## Mommah (5 Mar 2009)

Be very careful about doing a PhD if you are disillusioned with your area.
A PhD usually makes you more specialised and more niche.
It rarely broadens your appeal.

No matter how exciting the topic for you PhD you will be pig sick of it by the end of the ?5 years.

Perhaps you are considering changing to an academic environment using your PhD...but if the practical application of your skills is so deathly dull....academia probably will do your head in too.


----------



## help_me (7 Mar 2009)

I am in mid 30's thinking of babies, working in IT.

I wanted to do MBA in finance last year but due to unavoidable circumstances I pushed it for next year.

Now that the financial market is crashed. 
I little nervous abt taking the steps toward to MBA finance ( even general MBA).
But I still want to get into Finance is MBS (Finance) a better options?


----------



## LouisCribben (7 Mar 2009)

This is an interesting thread.
A lot of people who have posted here think doing an MBA is a good thing.

I'm wondering why someone with an MBA is more valuable to an employer, or more likely to be successful if they start their own business.

Doing an MBA doesn't increase you IQ. It doesn't change your personality which is to a large degree fixed from birth. What does it give you ? Does it get you thinking in a different way about business ?

Some say it gives you contacts, surely that's not a good enough reason to do one.

If you take 2 very positive people with the same personality, same intelligence, same education, same everything.
One does a MBA, the other doesn't. In what way would the MBA make you more competent ?

In what way will the person with an MBA have more to offer than the person who hasn't. In what way would it make you more like to succeed if you start a business ?

I work in an IT organisation. I see people rise up the management ranks, without an MBA. Most of it is down to a combination of ambition, personality, hard working, professional competence. Being smart comes into it too obviously. Also being physically tall seems to help !

Most people who start a business obviously dont have an MBA, would they they better off if they did ?


----------



## Afuera (7 Mar 2009)

LouisCribben said:


> I'm wondering why someone with an MBA is more valuable to an employer, or more likely to be successful if they start their own business.


Some interesting questions there LouisCribben. As a current MBA student who is about 1/3 of the way through the course maybe I can give you my take on it.



LouisCribben said:


> Doing an MBA doesn't increase you IQ. It doesn't change your personality which is to a large degree fixed from birth. What does it give you ? Does it get you thinking in a different way about business ?


It has definately changed my thinking about business anyway. I come from an IT background and I think it's very easy to get locked into a particular departamental mindset as you progress in that field. The MBA allowed me to take a step back and opened me up to the other important functions that make up the company. It's hard to appreciate the importance of Marketing, HR, Finance, etc. in a company unless you have had to look at the specific issues each of them faces and the value they add.



LouisCribben said:


> If you take 2 very positive people with the same personality, same intelligence, same education, same everything.
> One does a MBA, the other doesn't. In what way would the MBA make you more competent ?


As I said above, I think that being forced to look at business in very broad terms does add something to your competency. The added advantage of being surrounded by smart people from all walks of life (bankers, lawyers, entrepreneurs, engineers, consultants, etc), with great experiences already behind them, also greatly encourages this process of reevaluating your own approach. 



LouisCribben said:


> In what way will the person with an MBA have more to offer than the person who hasn't. In what way would it make you more like to succeed if you start a business ?


Notwithstanding the access to a wide network of alumni, I think the other key differentiating factor is that they would have a demonstrable level of credibility. This can certainly make in difference in the search for funding, partners, etc.



LouisCribben said:


> Most people who start a business obviously dont have an MBA, would they they better off if they did ?


I'm not sure this can be answered in general terms. For some businesses I don't think it makes much difference.


----------



## Mommah (7 Mar 2009)

Interesting question and I liked afeura's response.



LouisCribben said:


> I'm wondering why someone with an MBA is more valuable to an employer,


 
I feel I was more valueable to my employer as I had a broader range of skills than other managers who were promoted directly because they were technically excellent. Being a manager requires a different skill set to being a good technician. I was better equiped to instigate professional performance management systems, with out engaging the ire of the unions. I say identified less with my speciality and more with the organisation as a whole and I particularly identified with clients as the most important stakeholders.(unusual in my industry where staff are usual seen as the most important)

I was well equiped to manage budgets effectively and creatively.
(not that that was rewarded!)
I understood better how to grow staff within the organisation and how to network effectively with other organisations, universities etc to offer a better service to our clients.



LouisCribben said:


> or more likely to be successful if they start their own business.


I think the US is better at offering MBA programmes that appeal to the entrepreneurial personality. One of my classmates launched her own film business and one friend who did an MBA in the US...he launched an international software company, which seems to be successful. But in  general my classmates and myself were cogs in the corporate machine.




LouisCribben said:


> Doing an MBA doesn't increase you IQ. It doesn't change your personality


 
Neither does learning to read and write, but it offers you useful tools to deal with the problems you encounter. 



LouisCribben said:


> Some say it gives you contacts, surely that's not a good enough reason to do one.


Not as a stand alone reason, but it is an important part of doing the MBA.
So if I needed advice or direction on a marketing or IT issue, I would have people I know well who are specialists in these areas, to ask for direction.




LouisCribben said:


> Most people who start a business obviously dont have an MBA, would they they better off if they did ?


 
Most business start-ups fail.
Would an MBA reduce the failure rate? 
Probably because fewer people would have started half cocked.
Should all entrepreneurs be forced to do MBAs? No, they are too expensive, but there are reasonable mentoring systems in place for budding entrepreneurs who seek them out.


----------



## camel (7 Mar 2009)

Fair played to Afuera and Mommah for the detail in their answers, but I think the response can be much less verbose.

Someone with an MBA has formal training and proof of intention/ambition. I might have the same level intelligence as my local GP, but I don't have his training. Mommah's 'read and write' comment also sums it up.

And I certainly would imagine doing an MBA would broaden the mind beyond the organisation in which one currently works (institutionalisation!).


----------



## LouisCribben (8 Mar 2009)

I suppose one key reason people who do an MBA do well is because they are driven, they show this by enrolling in a costly MBA program and seeing it through.
They have to be driven to begin with.


----------



## jp2009 (7 Jul 2009)

Hi,

What are people's views are on someone doing an MBA with an accountancy background? A lot of people seem to think MBAs are more suitable for people with science/engineering backgrounds. I come from an accountancy background but am sick to death of it! I am looking for a complete career change but I don't know to what yet. I am wondering if an MBA will help me 1) find an area I would like to work in and 2) give me the skills to move into that area?


----------



## Mommah (7 Jul 2009)

I think you could choose something better.
There was one or two accountants in my class and I really got the impression that they knew most of the stuff already. Of course they did gather some new information, but really, for them I don't feel the return on investment was as good as for the others.


----------



## lazing (7 Jul 2009)

I weighed up doing an MBA at one point, and decided that I couldn't justify the financial / time commitment and expense.  Instead I did CIMA - which has many strategic aspects and accountants are respected in Ireland to almost the same degree as an MBA.

You do not necessarily get the project-based interaction with peers that an MBA would offer, but CIMA touches on Law, IT, strategy, finance and accounting.

I would very much recommend CIMA, and perhaps going into some form of consultancy for a couple of years to get the project experience.


----------



## jp2009 (8 Jul 2009)

I have to say I did CIMA and did not really find I learnt a whole lot from it. I learnt what I needed to pass the exams and that was about it. Once they were finished it all went out the window! I suppose you get out of it what you put into it though as they say.


----------



## neoliberal-X (11 Jul 2009)

My Bro is a Chem engineer working for a large multinational pharma. He did an MBA and since then he has had promotion on top of promotion! 

I think he reckons it helped him speak the language of all the Senior managment and the yuppie BComms that ponce in and out of things, you know the lingo - it is mostly nonsense but if you cannot speak it it can get you in Board rooms.


----------

