# Fathers not declaring their full income



## lexi35 (11 Mar 2008)

I am in a difficult situation at the moment & i am at a loss of what to do so any help or opinions are greatly appreciated.
I was with my child's father for 6.5 years. We bought a house on the affordable housing but he never moved in as i found out he was cheating on me. So i was left to pay everything on my own. Im trying to have his name removd from the house which he agreed to, but he is now demanding money & i cannot afford that.

He earns €650 a week cash in hand but he works for his father who owns his own company. His father has him down for earning only €350 a week. I dont think i can prove this because im sure all cash is well hidden. Does the judge just go on what he has in front of him usually? His father has a huge house with another he rents, my ex is driving around in a €16k car & is renting a 2 bed apartment in Lucan im guessing €1200 at least a month (he shares this with his girlfriend)

My child also started school this year.
I pay a mortgage of €1000 a month i pay a minder €120 a week, car finance, bills, my childs sports etc.

I earn a good wage so im just scraping by but i need maintenance from my childs father. I have kept my word & i allow him to take his child 1-2 nights at the weekend. Also what visitation rights would he have? 
I have recieved some money over 5 years but it was never enough & it was all cash in hand. What will happen there? Could i request that it is backdated? 

Am i being unreasonable?

Does anyone know what may happen or has anyone been in a similar situation?


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## Black Sheep (12 Mar 2008)

You appear to be literally left Holding the baby so maybe it's time to get a bit tough. 

*Both* parents (whether married or not) have a duty to provide for their children. If he has not been supporting his child, of course you can claim for arrears

Regarding visitation rights he has absolutely none, only those that you agree to.  See *treoir.ie*


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## Card (12 Mar 2008)

I don't believe you should tie in visitation rights with the issue of maintenance surely its the child who enjoys the visitation rights and as they have no control over the issue of maintenance why should they lose out on vistation rights?


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## wicklowlass (12 Mar 2008)

with regards to back dating maintenance in my experience it is very hard to prove and work out a set amount from the judges perspective . on the other hand if you kept a record of the dates you received maintenance something might be done. normally you could expect to receive anything between 50 to 100 euro per week per child. 

im not saying  you cant claim arrears but it would be easier for calculation purposes if you had a record of what you received. also, arrears  can only be backdated for 3 years. 

you shouldnt worry about proving his income as, from experience only recently in the district court, a mother was awarded 100 e for two children , and the fathers wage was proven on pay slips to be 350 per week.

with regards access, it is alot easier of you both agree to access taking place, rather than denying access ( not that im implying you would ) but the judges always like to see an amicable decision around , its whats best for the child that matters.  if you withdraw or decide not to allow access , the judge can award access to the fater , as long as he has had contact or visitation to the child prior to applying to the court, as in the eyes of the court it is best for the child to have some contact with their fatrher thn none at all. 

hope this is of some help and that you get a solution to your problem soon


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## BountyHunter (12 Mar 2008)

Hi Lex35,
First off I think you need to talk to the housing authority with regarding getting his name off the house, and even a solicitor, I’m not an expert but that’s what I’m guessing. If you can prove that you’ve been paying the mortgage by yourself this would help your case, I’m not familiar with the affordable housing system but are you entitled to claim TRS? If so are you? If not this can be backdated.

I think you’ll find it hard to prove he gets paid some money into his hand to be honest, you’ll find his dad’s books will show no discrepancies. Also I would say the car is not in his name, if it still is in his name you’ll find when he gets wind that you’re taking him to court for maintenance he will put it in someone else’s name.
I’m not sure why you mention him renting an apartment, he has to live somewhere too, doesn’t he? 
Your ex’s father’s house has nothing to do with you, your ex and your child, again not sure why you mentioned this, a judge wont want to know anything about his dad’s affairs, and just to look at it from a wider angle, I’m not sure if his dad ever see’s the child but if you were to stop visitations and your ex’s dad applied for grandparents access, his assets be they money, cars, houses etc do not come into it, i.e. a judge will not take that into account, that’s my experience..
At the moment your ex has no rights to his child, but the courts will decide what visitations he will get, your ex will then probably seek joint guardianship of the child, one of the implications of this is that say for example you want to take the child on a foreign holiday you will need his permission to do so, and the same for him, if a judge gives him guardianship he will need your permission if he wants to take the child abroard.

Since you’ve no records of him paying you any money over the years it’ll be hard for a judge to determine what money is to be backdated, but he will decide on a figure. I’m sure the figure you tell the judge will be different than the one your ex will give? How come you haven’t taken him to court yet? As one of the posters already mentioned you might expect any amount from 50 to I think a max (I’m open to correction) of 150 a week.
The judge can backdate to when the child was born (I’m open to correction on this) , and will more than likely put a ridiculous deadline on when this money has to be paid or else your ex will get locked up for a few days, maybe this will put a smile on your face?
The judge will probably decide that your ex will pay for 50% of the child’s school expenses, doctors bills etc, I’m not sure if this can be backdated though.
Do you get single parents allowance? How much is that (I have no idea)?
Can you claim crèche allowance? Again I have no idea how much that is.

You might find that depending on how much maintenance the judge decides that your ex may in fact give up work altogether as it won’t be worth his while to work, especially if he can get paid into his hand from his dad, its not unheard of, in this case you may find that you wont get the money you were expecting.

Basically this is could develop into a very bitter situation, you feel hard done by financially and he’ll feel hard done by the courts (if he does get jail time for not meeting the deadline for the backdated money, it has happened) all the while the child is growing up in the middle of this….

BountyHunter.


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## wicklowlass (12 Mar 2008)

yes the maximum in court is 150 per child, access can be granted to the grandfather, and with regards to the dad getting jail , i dont want to divulge too much about my personal life but from a very recent experience, a man paying 150 a week for two children, lost his job and contributed 50 euro per week form the jobseekers allowance he received, and also kept up his visitation to the children each weekend despite only having 130 euro per week to live on pay bills etc, and as soon as he regained employement resumed paying the 150 euro but was subsequently brought to court and told to pay the arrears or go to jail for 3 to 30 days. 

hardly fair? but yes he could face jail if he cannot come up with money he owes you. in the sitution i have mentioned about the dad had one hour to come up with the cash. dont think it would be good for anyone if the child couldnt see his/her dad as they were sent down.


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## csirl (13 Mar 2008)

I'd advise going to court and getting the maintenance issue formalised and seeking to have it deducted at source from his salary. Until then, if you are taking cash from him, tell him to lodge it directly into a bank account you have set up in the childs name and that you, as guardian, have access to. That way the bank records will show how much money is being paid. If he refuses, send him a letter by registered post, setting out that you want the money paid into the account and giving the account details and informing him that the bank account records will be used as the official record of his payments. If after that he still gives you cash without lodging it, remind him that you are regarding it as a gift to yourself, not a payment for the child as he has not followed the instructions & there is no record of him paying.


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## BountyHunter (13 Mar 2008)

csirl said:


> If after that he still gives you cash without lodging it, remind him that you are regarding it as a gift to yourself.


Ah spoken like a true pro...

What makes you think if the OP sets up a bank account her ex wont lodge any money into it? He hasnt really been given a chance to prove himself yet in this regard, the OP hasn't stated that she's always asking her ex for money and he always refuses...

BountyHunter.


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## wicklowlass (13 Mar 2008)

why go for an attachement of earnings summons ??? maybe dad has no problem paying an amount and maybe if an agreed amount was arrangery one could be alot happier all around as mum would know what she was getting each week and dad would know what he had to pay . instead of going and getting the money straight out of his earnings, and as soon as this little child gets older and realises a judge has ordered money directly from his dads wage he will more than likely think that dad would not cough up money towards his chid which may not neccessaily be the case? 

and dad needs a house too? or is he meant to live at home with his parents for the rest of his life just because he has a child?


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## csirl (14 Mar 2008)

> What makes you think if the OP sets up a bank account her ex wont lodge any money into it?


 
True, worth giving him the chance. But the form guide isnt good. A mother shouldnt have to ask the father for money, he should be volunteering it.


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## truthseeker (14 Mar 2008)

csirl said:


> True, worth giving him the chance. But the form guide isnt good. A mother shouldnt have to ask the father for money, he should be volunteering it.



Very true but unfortunately in this situation a lot of the time (not all of the time), the father is not interested in contributing as much as he should be financially.

Even when the fathers are decent about making contributions there are a lot of incidentals that just fall to the person that the child lives with because they are there - it would sound petty to tot up all the small items like pharmacy items, sweeties, reading material, small toys, juices etc... that money might be spent on in the course of an average week but these things are not free and people do of course buy them for their children.

OP - I would strongly advise you sort out some sort of diary of payments, I had a friend in a similar position and the diary of payments was taken seriously by a judge.


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## BountyHunter (14 Mar 2008)

truthseeker said:


> it would sound petty to tot up all the small items like pharmacy items, sweeties, reading material, small toys, juices etc... that money might be spent on in the course of an average week but these things are not free and people do of course buy them for their children.


 
Forgive me for asking a stupid question but I thought thats what the maintenance was meant to be spent on?? If not truthseeker, then what in your opinion should maintenance be spent on??

Also when the father has the child does he not have to pay for these incidentials??

BountyHunter.


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## wicklowlass (15 Mar 2008)

thank you bountyhunter !!!!! thats what i was thinking , if maintenance is ont spenty on these items what are they spent on? 

i take my step kids each weekend, we pay 100 euro maintenance for two children per week , but also but goodies clothes, toys, have treat days, go to play centres, the whole hog !!!! we dont complain!!


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## jomarie (15 Mar 2008)

Every case is different. I am very lucky my childs father more than supports my child and also very willing pays for any treats that he gives her, or places he takes her. That is entirely up to him. Mothers do have to pay for every day things, and €50 - €100 doesn't always go very long way.


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## truthseeker (15 Mar 2008)

BountyHunter said:


> Forgive me for asking a stupid question but I thought thats what the maintenance was meant to be spent on?? If not truthseeker, then what in your opinion should maintenance be spent on??
> 
> Also when the father has the child does he not have to pay for these incidentials??
> 
> BountyHunter.



BountyHunter - what I meant was that even when the father (or parent who doesnt have physical custody of the child) is good about making contributions that a lot of the time that is based on half creche fees/half medical expenses/half clothes allowance etc... but that if a person were to add up all the little incidentals that money gets spent on they often find that the maintenance payments dont cover this and the person with physical custody does indeed end up spending more. 

Yes - if the child was spending 50% of the time with the father Im sure the father would be paying these incidentals but for the most part I see fathers who only spent small amounts of time with the child - in the childs own home and dont take them out and spend money on them at all - Im not for a minute saying that that is the case for everyone, but just based on the 8 or 9 friends I have who have a child and are not with the childs father - I only see one situation where the father actually shares time and money equally - all other cases the mother seems to be left to invest the most time AND money. That is not to say that that is the case for everyone though - I am purely basing this opinion on my own experiences.


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## wicklowlass (15 Mar 2008)

both parents are meant to contribute to the cost of the child not just the person who does not have physical custody


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## carrielou (21 Mar 2008)

The matter of maintenance throught the courts is not a simple and straightforward as is seems, as I have learnt over the past five years.  Have 3 children with a partner whom I was with for 11 years, separated 5 years ago.  He did not turn up at 1st court, judge said he had to pay 255 a week.  He decided he would only pay 200, cash, never handed to me by him only dropped off, couple of times distastefully.  court made an order on him eventually for previous 26 wk payment, got half it.  Solicitor advised taking a case in circuit court, barristers etc.  Eventually got there but judge would not hear case on some technical hitch which his barrister showed through some previous case!  He got away with 13,000 euro, i had to pay my own cost.

Not easy guys, district court only allow 26 weeks to go back for maintenance


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