# First time buyer and bidding



## balkanhawk (18 Aug 2007)

Hello all,

Me and my girlfriend are hoping to buy our first place together. We have spotted a lovely 3 bed end terrace duplex and its current asking price is €375k. We went to view it today and the estate agent (EA) told us that the current owner cannot afford the mortgage on it and will "take a hit" on the asking price. I thought that this was a bit unusual for a EA to say but he has been in the business a long time. We viewed a similar property in the estate that is on the market "EXCESS €350k". This place needed a lot of work, is mid terrace and the street it is on is not near as nice.
I typed the address into google and i spotted that the asking price had recently been dropped from €385k to €375k.
We are both leaning towards the €375k one but are unsure what to bid?? Any help would be appreciated.


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## ang1170 (18 Aug 2007)

First thing to do is decide in your own minds what you can afford, and keep this figure in mind when bidding: don't be tempted to go over it, as there are always other houses.

What it's worth is another matter: it all depends on how many similar houses in the location come up for sale, and how much they're selling for.

As FTBs in a weak/falling market you're in a strong position: make the most of it.

Without knowing anying about it, my inclination would be to put in an offer 10-15% below the current asking in the current market, unless that's way below any similar house that's sold in the past couple of months. If/when it's rejected, make the point that it's a serious offer, you're FTBs with mortage approval (i.e. you can close quickly with no conditions) and ask what is the lowest they'd be willing to go. I wouldn't move your first offer until they move the asking price. If they won't move this, leave it a couple of weeks and see will they move then: keep asking what their lowest price is.

One last thing: don't believe a word the EA tells you!

Good luck!


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## Maine (20 Aug 2007)

balkanhawk said:


> Hello all,
> 
> Me and my girlfriend are hoping to buy our first place together. We have spotted a lovely 3 bed end terrace duplex and its current asking price is €375k. We went to view it today and the estate agent (EA) told us that the current owner cannot afford the mortgage on it and will "take a hit" on the asking price. We are both leaning towards the €375k one but are unsure what to bid?? Any help would be appreciated.


 
Try 325k to 330k as starting and tell EA you are somewhat stretched at that level however can do deal quickly. You may have to go 10k higher to do the deal.

Remember in a slow market the EA will lean heavily to getting the deal done and therefore will tend to favour the buyer with information to get the deal done. In a sellers market EAs must get sellers so big prices are the marketing strategy, in a slow market there are no shortage of sellers but you got to make buyers count.

Also remember the vendor will expect you to go €10k higher than your opening offer to finalize so bidding a price creates an expectation on their side.


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## MrMan (20 Aug 2007)

Rather than not believe a word the EA tells you, you should listen carefully as he seems to pretty much tell you that a deal may well be done. The other dupex being offered at €350k should be your guide because in my experience it is often the case that houses in good order don't sell for a great deal more than those in need of some repair in the same areas. His price has dropped by €10k so offer c.€340,000 (on the €375k duplex). and state that you really want that one but you may have no other option but to go for the other as it is closer to you budget, see what reaction you get as he seems to be ready with the info. If you start too low and they don't even consider your offers you will end up bidding up and up and then they will feel that you may go as high as they want. If €340,000 is rejected outright ask what is their realistic selling point and then make a compromise offer if you feel it is worth it.


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## balkanhawk (22 Aug 2007)

Hi,
Thanks for the help. My girlfriend and i sat down and went through the figures together and came up with a maximum mortgage figure. I plan to place a bid of around €340-5 to test the waters. Ill keep you posted on the outcome.


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## balkanhawk (11 Sep 2007)

Hello all,
We placed an offer of of 345k and the estate agent blew a fuse. Said it was a 'disgraceful offer'. I was quite taken aback by this. We asked if he would take the offer to the seller and he said he is legally obliged too. He called back the next day to say that the seller was 'disgusted' by this offer. We left it for a week and arranged a few more viewing. He called us back to inform us of another property nearby.
During this call we raised our offer to €352. He said 'great' and said that the seller is panicking because there is no interest. He believes she will take the offer. We are awaiting to hear back.
If this offer is refused should we leave it on the table and carryon looking? We can go higher and it is a dream property.
Advice would be great?


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## Bob the slob (12 Sep 2007)

I wouldnt buy anything off someone that spoke to me like that.  Plenty of more houses and nicers EA's out there.  Tell him that too, see what he thinks.


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## ein (12 Sep 2007)

MrMan said:


> The other dupex being offered at €350k should be your guide because in my experience it is often the case that houses in good order don't sell for a great deal more than those in need of some repair in the same areas. .


 
yes, but that was in a market on a high, now the quality stands out and holds its own against doer-upers. A good looking home gets more interest thus higher prices, in most cases.

Ein


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## bacchus (12 Sep 2007)

balkanhawk said:


> We placed an offer of of 345k and the estate agent blew a fuse. Said it was a 'disgraceful offer'. ....
> that the seller was 'disgusted' by this offer. ....
> said that the seller is panicking because there is no interest.



This EA seems to be very unprofessional and is talking too much.....
€345k is not a ridiculous offer considering the lack of interest in the property.
As usual, the price a property is worth is only what somebody is wiling to pay.
Stick to your offer of €345k. You are in a strong position


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## MrMan (12 Sep 2007)

> I wouldnt buy anything off someone that spoke to me like that. Plenty of more houses and nicers EA's out there. Tell him that too, see what he thinks.



He sounds ignorant, but the important thing here is the property, if you really want it I wouldn't leave it behind just cause the EA has no manners.



> yes, but that was in a market on a high, now the quality stands out and holds its own against doer-upers. A good looking home gets more interest thus higher prices, in most cases.
> 
> Ein



I read back over and realised it was a mid terrace against an end aswell, but there still should only be maybe €10k between them.


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## AppleSun (12 Sep 2007)

personally i'd agree with the EA... if i had my property on for 375k  and you went in 30k below i'd be disgusted also!!!

if she's struggling with the mortgage then i would assume 375k isn't much over what she has her mortgage for...

anyway hope ya get it..


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## Howitzer (12 Sep 2007)

balkanhawk said:


> Hello all,
> We placed an offer of of 345k and the estate agent blew a fuse. Said it was a 'disgraceful offer'. I was quite taken aback by this. We asked if he would take the offer to the seller and he said he is legally obliged too. He called back the next day to say that the seller was 'disgusted' by this offer. We left it for a week and arranged a few more viewing. He called us back to inform us of another property nearby.
> During this call we raised our offer to €352. He said 'great' and said that the seller is panicking because there is no interest. He believes she will take the offer. We are awaiting to hear back.
> If this offer is refused should we leave it on the table and carryon looking? We can go higher and it is a dream property.
> Advice would be great?


 
Ho hum. I don't see how an offer 2% higher than your original offer can go from "disgraceful offer", "disgusted", to "great", that the seller will accept the offer. I guess unemployed actors have moved on from being waiters to the Real Estate game.

I'd have offered less on the 2nd offer.


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## MrMan (12 Sep 2007)

> Ho hum. I don't see how an offer 2% higher than your original offer can go from "disgraceful offer", "disgusted", to "great", that the seller will accept the offer. I guess unemployed actors have moved on from being waiters to the Real Estate game.
> 
> I'd have offered less on the 2nd offer.



The differnece could quite possibly have been the mindset of the vendor after all they have the final say, an extra 2% isn't going to increase the coffers of the EA considerably so I can't see why he would be 'acting' in this instance. Offer less on your second offer and you may not be taken seriously at least i would be crossing you off of my list as a potential purchaser.


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## Howitzer (12 Sep 2007)

MrMan said:


> The differnece could quite possibly have been the mindset of the vendor after all they have the final say, an extra 2% isn't going to increase the coffers of the EA considerably so I can't see why he would be 'acting' in this instance. Offer less on your second offer and you may not be taken seriously at least i would be crossing you off of my list as a potential purchaser.


 
I don't really buy into this idea that only someone willing to continually up their bids is a serious purchaser. A serious purchaser is someone willing to sign the cheque and complete the sale. A really serious purchaser is someone who wants to get the property for the best price possible, not nesessarilly in the quickest time possible. 

It's not the value of your offer which determines whether you are serious, it's the manner in which you negotiate the deal. Someone flip flopping from disgusted to ecstatic over 2% isn't serious in my book, and mind sets like that don't change in the course of a couple of days.

My opinion is that the "oh that's a ridiculous offer" flip flop to "oh that's a great offer" is just a mechanism of speeding up the deal, getting the buyer to the point where they're essentially bidding against themselves and happy the to sign asap even though there are no other bidders. Here's an example.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NSnShgwG3U


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## kkelliher (12 Sep 2007)

I can never figure out why people increase their offers by so much each time. Its only playing into the hands of the EA and the seller.

I purchased my house and the bidding went up in €1000 at a time and I did end up buying it. If you go up in more than that your just inflating the price


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## MrMan (12 Sep 2007)

The original offer came in 30k below asking and was point blanl refused a lower subsequent offer from the same person to me would seem like a waste of time and someone who might only be trying to push the buttons of an EA. The EA has to have confidence in a purchaser to be able to go through to the signing of contracts and your described actions would seem to me somewhat unstable. 



> My opinion is that the "oh that's a ridiculous offer" flip flop to "oh that's a great offer" is just a mechanism of speeding up the deal, getting the buyer to the point where they're essentially bidding against themselves and happy the to sign asap even though there are no other bidders. Here's an example.



Try this scenario  vendor states I'm not interested in anything below €x so don't even consider them, many weeks pass and vendor is starting to have their eyes opened to the possibility of a drop in their valuation, but they do not relay this info to their EA, subsequently the EA receives offer of €x - €30k and thinks that the vendor will say 'Were you not listening to me, that is an insulting offer' , but when they actually go back to the vendor they may say we would be interested at a little bit more than that, which leads to the change in EA behaviour/persona.

A little long winded, but not a totally unlikely scenario.





> I can never figure out why people increase their offers by so much each time. Its only playing into the hands of the EA and the seller.
> 
> I purchased my house and the bidding went up in €1000 at a time and I did end up buying it. If you go up in more than that your just inflating the price



It really all comes down to different strategies, some people bid high to try and blow the competition away, I have seen on many occassions where bids of €500 and €1000 have lead to a slower process which has in turn attracted extra bidders.


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## Howitzer (12 Sep 2007)

I should have prefaced my comments with: In the current market.

There is no competition to blow away with high bids. When there are more sellers than buyers you should keep your bid static and let the sellers expectations drop to your level, THEY then run the risk that you will find a extra seller and bid on a lower priced property, reducing your bid on the first property further.

In a falling market you kind of have to assume that you've just entered Bizarro World.


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## thomasmc01 (12 Sep 2007)

It is one of the jobs of the EA to keep relations between a vendor and potential buyer calm and relaxed, even if they never meet. It is massively counter productive to agitate a situation by saying the vendor is 'disgusted' etc..Ask the EA who the vendors solicitor is cos you want to infom them of difficulties in negotiations. Regarding offers I would be of the mind to be slow to increase offers in the current market.


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## ein (12 Sep 2007)

Howitzer said:


> Ho hum. I don't see how an offer 2% higher than your original offer can go from "disgraceful offer", "disgusted", to "great", that the seller will accept the offer. I guess unemployed actors have moved on from being waiters to the Real Estate game.
> 
> I'd have offered less on the 2nd offer.


 
Well if they have I wish they would act like sales people

Ein


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## ang1170 (13 Sep 2007)

balkanhawk said:


> If this offer is refused should we leave it on the table and carryon looking? We can go higher and it is a dream property.
> Advice would be great?


 
Short answer: yes.

You're in a very strong position (ANY buyer is in this market).

If they try and get you to move higher (which they will) just say that you're very interested, your offer is still on the table, you can close quickly if needed, and you're looking at other properties (you can remind the EA there are plenty available) in the meantime.

If they don't bite, leave it a couple of weeks, ring up and ask what their lowest price is, and then make a decision (Camry's criteria are very good for this) on whether to bargain to close the deal or walk away.

Try and keep business-like and professional (unlike the EA) and emotion out of it: plenty of time for that when you get the keys to your new home (whether this or another one).


Remember:

- it's real cash you're playing with
- there's plenty of choice out there


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## balkanhawk (13 Sep 2007)

Thanks for all of your advice. The EA called back and said that *'as he expected she will not take anything less than the asking of 375k'*. This annoyed me as it was at odds with his previos comments.
He has been pushing another property in the estate that that is the same and is asking for 360k. He thinks it will go for 350k. There are now 5 of these houses on the market ranging in asking price from 350k-395k
Should we view it even though we are set on the one we have the offer on?
We are renting a place from a relative so we are not in a rush. I am inclined to sit and wait while viewing other properties. Our current offer is 352 and we can go to near the asking price but the market isnt inspiring confidence in us at the moment.


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## New_Buyer (13 Sep 2007)

balkanhawk said:


> Thanks for all of your advice. The EA called back and said that *'as he expected she will not take anything less than the asking of 375k'*. This annoyed me as it was at odds with his previos comments.
> He has been pushing another property in the estate that that is the same and is asking for 360k. He thinks it will go for 350k. There are now 5 of these houses on the market ranging in asking price from 350k-395k
> Should we view it even though we are set on the one we have the offer on?
> We are renting a place from a relative so we are not in a rush. I am inclined to sit and wait while viewing other properties. Our current offer is 352 and we can go to near the asking price but the market isnt inspiring confidence in us at the moment.



I think you are very brave buying a place at the moment.
But if you intent to I think you should continue to offer well well below the asking prices for any property you bid on.
There is so much out there out the moment that you have plenty of choice and eventually ye will get something


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## ang1170 (13 Sep 2007)

balkanhawk said:


> Thanks for all of your advice. The EA called back and said that *'as he expected she will not take anything less than the asking of 375k'*. This annoyed me as it was at odds with his previos comments.
> He has been pushing another property in the estate that that is the same and is asking for 360k. He thinks it will go for 350k. There are now 5 of these houses on the market ranging in asking price from 350k-395k
> Should we view it even though we are set on the one we have the offer on?
> We are renting a place from a relative so we are not in a rush. I am inclined to sit and wait while viewing other properties. Our current offer is 352 and we can go to near the asking price but the market isnt inspiring confidence in us at the moment.


 
I'd say there's absolutely no reason not to view the other house. It'll give you a better idea of what else is out there, and you never know, you may actually end up prefering it.

Just going by what you say, I'd be amazed if you didn't get what you're looking for at your current offer price (and maybe even lower) within the next couple of months.


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## balkanhawk (14 Sep 2007)

Thanks, i think our offer is decent for the current market but its hard to know which way it will go in the future. The next interest rate decision will be important for everyone. Fingers crossed


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## Palantir_Use (15 Sep 2007)

Strangely, I made an offer on a 3-bed semi 5k under the asking price, and the vendor accepted it even before I put down the phone ... makes me suspect that I could have gone lower.

PS - asking price was 225k ...

If you're worried about the next interest rate decision ... fix your mortgage for a while ...


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## mercman (15 Sep 2007)

Remember one important fact. The EA makes his money on commision. The higher the price the more he earns. This is a buyer's market. Believe it or not. If this one fails there will be another property that you fancy. Give him your price and pick a time and date that this price is good until. After that wait. Do not worry, if they do not come back to you and they want to sell, yopur price is going south. Tell him you have an offer on another property  but would prefer this one and watever price you choose is your price. The property market is full of liars and unfortunately if you want to play the game, play them at their own sport. Good Luck.


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## New_Buyer (15 Sep 2007)

Palantir_Use said:


> Strangely, I made an offer on a 3-bed semi 5k under the asking price, and the vendor accepted it even before I put down the phone ... makes me suspect that I could have gone lower.
> 
> PS - asking price was 225k ...
> 
> If you're worried about the next interest rate decision ... fix your mortgage for a while ...



In the current market you would probably have had an offer of €200k accepted.


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## balkanhawk (16 Sep 2007)

New_Buyer said:


> In the current market you would probably have had an offer of €200k accepted.




I dont think things are that bad. Buyers just have a bit more room to negotiate in the current climate.


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## Steve D (16 Sep 2007)

balkanhawk said:


> I dont think things are that bad. Buyers just have a bit more room to negotiate in the current climate.


 

Yes, things are that bad and worse! many vendors have dropped prices by much more than that and still cannot sell:


http://irishpropertywatch.5gbfree.com/ipw_myhome_report14_100907.html

http://www.irishpropertywatch.com/


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## balkanhawk (19 Sep 2007)

Very interesting article!! I havent contatcted the EA in a while but one of his colleagues left me a voice mail about a different property. He said 'it may be easier to buy'. I think we may view this place even though we are set on the first property. I guess it will give the impression that we are looking and are not 'desperate'. Any thoughts?​


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## MrMan (20 Sep 2007)

> Remember one important fact. The EA makes his money on commision. The higher the price the more he earns.



So if he drags another 10,000 grand out he pulls in another €100 to the company and maybe 10/20 euro to himself so I don't think its the EA you need worry about .




> He said 'it may be easier to buy'



which suggests also easier to sell. This sales process sounds like it is being hindered by an over ambitious vendor that is in no hurry to sell (yet). The EA probably knows that he is being asked to get too high a price , but the vendor has the last say so there is little the EA can do.




> Yes, things are that bad and worse! many vendors have dropped prices by much more than that and still cannot sell:
> 
> 
> [broken link removed]
> ...



It is also important that one takes a balanced look at the market, do not base your opinions on doom mongers or the boomers opinions as they tend to concentrate on a particular area and use this as the general gospel for all areas. There are many different markets within the property market and some research into your area and type of property alone is needed not a general sweep of the marketplace


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## batty (20 Sep 2007)

I'd suggest just sitting tight for the moment.  It's very unlikely that somebody will come in at the asking price or just below.


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## comanche (20 Sep 2007)

mercman said:


> Remember one important fact. The EA makes his money on commision. The higher the price the more he earns.



Altough the EA makes their money on comission its not the single sale that makes them their money, its the turnover - the need to turn over houses as quickly as possible. 5k extra on a house is not the extra effort to an EA (@ a very generous 2% comission thats 100e), they would much rather get as many houses sold as possible - thats where it all adds up


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## oceanclub (20 Sep 2007)

Apple* said:


> personally i'd agree with the EA... if i had my property on for 375k and you went in 30k below i'd be disgusted also!!!
> .


Eh, what? Business is business. There's price drops going on. Be annoyed, sure.. but "disgusted"?


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## balkanhawk (27 Sep 2007)

Went to view the other property on Monday. It was OK but was no as nice as the previous one. We then noticed that the nicer property had dropped their asking price to €365k from €375k. Our last offer was €352. 
I then got a phonecall from the EA who showed us the 2nd prop asking if we were interested. I told him that we were more interested in the first property but that we would consider it if the other one fell through.
10 minutes later the EA who is dealing with the orig property called me. I was expecting it as both EAs work in the same office. 
He said that she will not take anything less than €365 and it is pointless offering anything lower than that. Sounds familiar. He said that the market is warming up and they have sold more houses in the last 3 weeks than they have in the last 3 months. He also said they three couples have viewed the house this week alone and we may loose it. i said that we will not go to €365k. I am tempted to raise the offer a few thousand.

Any opinions?


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## comanche (28 Sep 2007)

balkanhawk said:


> Went to view the other property on Monday. It was OK but was no as nice as the previous one. We then noticed that the nicer property had dropped their asking price to €365k from €375k. Our last offer was €352.
> I then got a phonecall from the EA who showed us the 2nd prop asking if we were interested. I told him that we were more interested in the first property but that we would consider it if the other one fell through.
> 10 minutes later the EA who is dealing with the orig property called me. I was expecting it as both EAs work in the same office.
> He said that she will not take anything less than €365 and it is pointless offering anything lower than that. Sounds familiar. He said that the market is warming up and they have sold more houses in the last 3 weeks than they have in the last 3 months. He also said they three couples have viewed the house this week alone and we may loose it. i said that we will not go to €365k. I am tempted to raise the offer a few thousand.
> ...


 
My opinion - you are being played by EA, not for his profit, but because vendor wont drop price. EA is using all usual tricks to try and get you to up your price. Same trick as all salemen, ever had a carsales man try this on with you, exactly the same trick the EA is using - thats his job.

Why won't they vendor drop their price - cos they think they can get more!

What you have to do is persuade the EA & vendor that your offer is final and then they may take your offer seriously and either they accept it or not.. If not you have to just forget about it and more on. There's plenty of houses out there!

Try not to get too attached - I think you are. 

Good luck


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## ang1170 (28 Sep 2007)

comanche said:


> My opinion - you are being played by EA, not for his profit, but because vendor wont drop price. EA is using all usual tricks to try and get you to up your price. Same trick as all salemen, ever had a carsales man try this on with you, exactly the same trick the EA is using - thats his job.
> 
> Why won't they vendor drop their price - cos they think they can get more!
> 
> ...


 
I'd agree with a lot of this, but not the bit about saying your current offer is final and "take it or leave it": I don't think this is a good strategy.

I'd just say "the offer's on the table"; "I'm in no hurry"; "there's plenty of choice out there"; "I can close quickly" and "prices seem to be falling": stuff like that.

That way, you're putting pressure on them to move rathar than being pressured yourself, and avoiding killing the negotiation by saying "take it or leave it" (in which case you risk loosing it right now, or loosing credibility if you subsequently decide to up your offer).

The only way you can loose it now is if someone comes in at a higher offer: it's up to you to judge how likely this is vs. how badly you want this particular one.

As previously said: try and keep emotion out of it and rember it's real cash you're negotiating with.


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## balkanhawk (28 Sep 2007)

Thanks, we have remained quite emotionally unattached from this property but i wonder if the market is picking up as the EA said??

My girlfriend wanted to say that this is our 'final offer' but i was more inclined to say 'it still stands' or what was quoted in the last reply.

I am waiting for the EA to come back and say there is another 'bid' that is higher than our own.

Cheers for the advice.


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## andynui (28 Sep 2007)

The market has most definatly not picked up. The ERSI say by the end of the year prices will be down 15%.  Take a look at the graph on http://daftwatch.atspace.com of unsold houses on the market.  It keeps going up and up and up. If no more houses were put up for sale, it would take a year to sell all the ones currently for sale.  Hold your nerve. Its like poker, and you need to call his bluff. I bet if you withdraw your offer, the asking price will suddenly drop, and you could get it for less than E352.  The lower you can get it, the less years your gonna be paying off your mortgage.


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## dodo (28 Sep 2007)

Is it worth you getting a friend who is up for annoying the EA, asking really how low will seller go and so on, even get him to drop into seller to see if ea is telling the truth,  also some people  drop a note in the door


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## Marie (29 Sep 2007)

To be honest if someone pestered me by 'dropping a note' of an already-rejected offer into my letterbox when I was paying an Estate Agent to sell my property (because I didn't want to conduct the sale myself, or have things dropped in my letterbox!!) I would not sell to that person..........so I'm not sure if that advice would produce the desired result in every case.

Recently I offered a sum close to the asking-price for a property which though generally considered to be overpriced, requiring costly renovation, is unique and which I was keen to live in for a number of reasons.   It was rejected and another bidder offered the full asking-price.  However it fell through as he had not done his research (I had!!!) on the cost of renovation and planning restrictions that were in force, due to its historic importance.  It went back on the market and the Estate Agent contacted all those originally interested.  Again I made a serious sensible offer which was again rejected and for a second time the property 'sold' quickly.  However, as they say, "it's not over till the fat lady sings"..........or translated into property-language, until this potential purchaser signs the documents and signs the cheque.  If that house comes back on the market I am still interested but would be dropping my offer considerably as interest rates are rising and property is not moving locally.  This is a case of a not very intelligent, greedy vendor who doesn't know a reliable safe buyer when they see one and is in this case NOT being guided by the Estate Agent who are aware the property is overpriced.

There is sound advice for you in most of the above posts.  If you want that house, if it moves you and you want it to be your home then you want to buy THIS one not another one down the road.  A few thousand pounds this way or that is irrelevant.  You've done your research and know the asking prices and selling prices locally.  Make your judgement.  Finding a home is too important and too huge an expense for game-playing.........and you'd better believe this, Estate Agents have many, many 'buyers' and 'vendors' who are playing games which they are well aware of.


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## balkanhawk (4 Oct 2007)

Hello all, in the end we didnt have to get a friend to call. We actually forgot to call the EA over the weekend. We planned to raise our offer to get things moving on Monday but the EA left a voicemail saying that she was desperate to sell and would accept our original offer. Just paid the booking deposit today, We are delighted as we thought it would go for 10k higher!! Hopefully everything will go smoothly with the purchase.


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## comanche (5 Oct 2007)

balkanhawk said:


> Hello all, in the end we didnt have to get a friend to call. We actually forgot to call the EA over the weekend. We planned to raise our offer to get things moving on Monday but the EA left a voicemail saying that she was desperate to sell and would accept our original offer. Just paid the booking deposit today, We are delighted as we thought it would go for 10k higher!! Hopefully everything will go smoothly with the purchase.



Well done & congrats! 

So what was the original asking price & what did you get it for again?


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