# Irish Bankruptcy in the UK



## needtoknow

Hi all.
Can any one help me PLEASE. I moved to the UK last year and was made Bankrupt late last year. The Question i have is when can i go back to ireland. How long do i have to wait. No where can i find a definate answer. My Official Receiver said that she cannot advise me but i can go where i want.????? and seek legal advice on the matter. I'm Affraid that if i did return to Ireland that my Bankruptcy would be Annulled. I do want to remain in the UK but finding it impossable to find a job. Being 50 years old dose not help. I have been offered work in Ireland but terrified to go. Any one out there please, that can help.
Cheers,
Needtoknow


----------



## Gerry Canning

Write to the Official Receiver and have her state you are DISCHARGED from Bankruptcy.Cutely, she cannot ADVISE you BUT as she said you can now go wherever you want.
IN SHORT WELCOME BACK HOME.
YOU ARE NOW IN A GREAT POSITION , take the job NOW !!!!!... I am sure of this advice.


----------



## needtoknow

Thanks Salmom 9077
You said you are sure in what you have said. How sure are you???. As i said i don't want to rock the boat. The way my luck is for the last few years is S**te and all i want now is to fly flags in front of the receiver and the chances of my Bankruptcy being reversed. 
Thanks so much for your reply
Cheers


----------



## Bronte

If I were you I'd contact Steve Thatcher who posts on this website.  He is a solicitor in the UK that handles Irish bankrupts.  I presume he will charge you for the advice but better to pay for it and do it right.  

My understanding of UK bankruptcy is that once you've gone though the process and are discharged you can move back.  That's what a few of the big developers have already done.  It seemed to be about a 15 month process.


----------



## needtoknow

Thanks Bronte for the advice. I will contact Steve Thatcher.
Cheers.


----------



## Steve Thatcher

You just need to keep the OR informed of your change in circumstances. That would include a new address. I haven't known anyone who has moved back have a problem at all.

Steve Thatcher
Www.helpwithdebtuk.com


----------



## needtoknow

Thank you so much Steve. I did my bankruptcy myself. Knowing now what i know i should have used you. As I said i am terrified if i do return to Ireland that they may think it is Bankruptcy tourism. Also in Verifying a foreign National Bankrupts COMI Part 2 February 2010: Section 43.0.17 Action to be taken where the veracity of the stated comi is in doubt.
Second Paragraph States;
Particularly, in cases where the bankrupt notifies the OR that he/she has returned to the other country before obtaining their discharge from Bankruptcy an immediate application should be made on the grounds that the relocation was transitory and designed to take advantage of Insolvency Legislation more advantageous to the debtor.
This sounds to me that if i do tell them that i have returned to Ireland this would happen.
Please tell me not so. All said if you said its OK then Its OK.
Ps; I sent you an email today also through your Dublin office as recommended by one of the responses to my post.
Thanks Steve
Needtoknow


----------



## Bronte

needtoknow said:


> . As I said i am terrified if i do return to Ireland that they may think it is Bankruptcy tourism.


 
You are allowed to do bankruptcy tourism also called forum shopping, it's not illegal. You've not lied to the UK authorities, you've established your COMI there legitimately etc so I don't think you should worry. If you're a very high profile person who possible has a lot of creditors angry at you than maybe it would be an issue, but based on all the high flying developers who were already able to come back and even live in their own mansions (bought by son in law etc) I'd say you have nothing to fear. 

What debts have you discharged, perhaps a mortgage of 300K and credit cards and overdrafts, presumably your common or garden bankrupty (not by English bankruptcy standards - I'd say the Irish are a lot highter in the debt stakes). So if you're just a regular bankrupcy there shouldn't be anything to be worried about. 

However if you've been hiding assets, and swan back into town owing a lot or people money (and I don't mean the banks), and walk back into the big house and swanky car, then maybe just maybe someone might do something but noone who is genuinely bankrupt has anything to fear.

Could you for the sake of others perhaps outline what you had to do to become a bankrupt. How difficult was the procedure and how much it cost you. Interesting to note that you now realise that you should have hired a professional, someone like Steve Thatcher. His fee is not so onerous.  I heard a snipet on the radio about bankrupty the other day and the professionals are now apparently meeting the Irish off the planes and arranging accommodation etc (anyone else hear that and could they tell me which program it was?)


----------



## needtoknow

Again Thank you Bronte for all your advice. Legend.
Needtoknow


----------



## Bronte

needtoknow said:


> Again Thank you Bronte for all your advice. Legend.
> Needtoknow


 
And do please consider doing up a post on how you went bankrupt, it really would be of help to people.  You just colour it a bit so you can't be identified, go from the beginning, what made you decide to go, did you give up a job, how did you find accommodation - everything.


----------



## Cantalia

Hello, re the discharge/release after 12 months, do you have to file a fresh affidavit at that point detailing again your income and outgoings?


----------



## needtoknow

Hello Cantalia. I don't know that answer. I am unemployed and was never asked to fill a statement of income. I think and hope if I am still unemployed on discharge they can't do anything after that. 
Dose anyone out there know.
Needtoknow


----------



## DonJuan30

No. After 12 months of being declared bankrupt, and once you have not had an income payments order put in place by the receiver, you are discharged from Bankruptcy. Anything you earn after that cannot be touched, and you do not need to file anything about your income and outgoings at this point.


----------



## Steve Thatcher

Cantalia said:


> Hello, re the discharge/release after 12 months, do you have to file a fresh affidavit at that point detailing again your income and outgoings?



No you don't if the OR wants he can ask you to complete an income and expenditure form again. He only has the 12 months of the bankruptcy to put an income payments order in place and so if you dont have enough income when you go bankrupt to do this, he sometimes does it as the end to see if circs have changed.
More often than not, if the OR has finished with you after a couple of months, you will never hear from him again.

Steve Thatcher
www.helpwithdebtuk.com


----------



## Cantalia

Does anyone know, or have experience of, how muck is a single man allowed to earn in London before an IPOwould be put on his income, then you are stuck with that for three years???  Thanks for help.


----------



## Cantalia

That should be "how much"!


----------



## Steve Thatcher

Cantalia said:


> Does anyone know, or have experience of, how muck is a single man allowed to earn in London before an IPOwould be put on his income, then you are stuck with that for three years???  Thanks for help.




As posted on your other thread, between £1800 and poss £2,200 depending on all your circs.

Steve Thatcher
www.helpwithdebtuk.com


----------



## Jim Stafford

I set out below what is guided on the UK insolvency service web site on reasonable living expenses.

*What expenses are allowable as 'reasonable domestic expenses'?*
As well as your normal monthly expenses, which include rent or mortgage payments (which are reasonable for the area you live in and the size of
your family), food, heating and lighting, clothing etc, here are some examples of things that *may *also be treated as part of your reasonable domestic needs:


TV licence, TV and video hire 
Household insurance
Car tax and insurance (if the trustee decides your car is 'exempt property' and allows you to keep it)
AA/RAC or similar membership (if you still have your car)
Membership of a professional body, needed for your job (unless your employer pays for this)
Prescriptions, dental treatment or opticians
Payment under a maintenance order or Child Support Agency assessment
Mobile phone (a reasonable monthly cost) 
Dry cleaning
 
This is not meant to be a complete list, and other expenses could be considered.

The following are examples of expenses which are likely to be disallowed (unless there are special circumstances):


Gym membership, any sports expenses or club membership
Additional pension contributions to enhance a pension
Private healthcare insurance
Money for gambling, alcohol or cigarettes
Satellite TV
Excessive mortgage payments
 
Note: the official receiver will always consider your views about what is 'reasonable' or necessary spending for your circumstances.

Jim Stafford.


----------



## Steve Thatcher

Jim's posting is very helpful, as it shows the heads of claim which you can utilise.

I also have access to the figures which accompany each head of claim

Steve Thatcher
www.helpwithdebtuk.com


----------



## Annette25

For attention of Steve Thatcher please

1.	If a couple file for Bankruptcy in the UK and for example the husband bases his COMI (Centre of Main Interest) there, can his spouse remain in Ireland where she has permanent part-time employment?

2.	Husband was born in the UK, would this make any difference to filing for Bankruptcy? (Moved to Ireland in the 1970’s and returned to the UK in 1984 until returning to Ireland in 1997).

3.	Previously had a National Insurance Number (still have N. Insurance Card) from living and working in the UK from 1984 until 1997. (Married in the UK in 1985 and 3 children born there, now adults). 
Have Barclay’s Bank Account, but statements now registered to Irish address. Can the same National Insurance Number be reactivated and Bank Account changed to an English address again?

4.	If some of the debts are in joint names, again can just the husband base his COMI in the UK or would both have to reside in the UK for a period of time? Is there any way around this?

5.	Will your Irish Revenue Debt be cleared if you file and are successful obtaining Bankruptcy in the UK?

6.	Left the UK in 1997 owing €1,500 to HM Revenue, would this have any effect on filing for Bankruptcy in UK?

7. Some of my debt is with 3 other people, where we had a company that went into liquidation a few years ago. Can I file for bankruptcy with my share of the debts. We had given personal guarantees when getting the loan from Bank of Ireland.


----------



## Steve Thatcher

Hi Annette see below



Annette25 said:


> For attention of Steve Thatcher please
> 
> 1.	If a couple file for Bankruptcy in the UK and for example the husband bases his COMI (Centre of Main Interest) there, can his spouse remain in Ireland where she has permanent part-time employment?
> 
> She can , but she will not be able to go bankrupt. Noth must establish an habitual residency in the UK to avail of bankruptcy
> 
> 2.	Husband was born in the UK, would this make any difference to filing for Bankruptcy? (Moved to Ireland in the 1970’s and returned to the UK in 1984 until returning to Ireland in 1997).
> 
> No. He would need to re-establish his comi
> 
> 3.	Previously had a National Insurance Number (still have N. Insurance Card) from living and working in the UK from 1984 until 1997. (Married in the UK in 1985 and 3 children born there, now adults).
> Have Barclay’s Bank Account, but statements now registered to Irish address. Can the same National Insurance Number be reactivated and Bank Account changed to an English address again?
> 
> Yes
> 
> 4.	If some of the debts are in joint names, again can just the husband base his COMI in the UK or would both have to reside in the UK for a period of time? Is there any way around this?
> 
> See 1 above
> 
> 5.	Will your Irish Revenue Debt be cleared if you file and are successful obtaining Bankruptcy in the UK?
> 
> Yes
> 
> 6.	Left the UK in 1997 owing €1,500 to HM Revenue, would this have any effect on filing for Bankruptcy in UK?
> 
> None at all
> 
> 7. Some of my debt is with 3 other people, where we had a company that went into liquidation a few years ago. Can I file for bankruptcy with my share of the debts. We had given personal guarantees when getting the loan from Bank of Ireland.



You would write off the amount of debt stipulated on the PG, or if it was unlimited, the whole amount of the debt. The other two parties will remain liable either for a set amount or the whole amount

Steve Thatcher
www.helpwithdebtuk.com


----------



## Annette25

Dear Steve,
Thank you so much for the answers to all my queries.


----------



## Annette25

F.A.O. Steve Thatcher
Dear Steve,
If a single man has €36K left on his mortgage which is his residential home, and files for bankruptcy in the UK. Is the OR likely to take his residential home off him. It was valued at €80K for the House Propety Tax which has just come into effect in Ireland.


----------



## munchy

In response to Annette's Q no 3, about NI number, I also lived in UK back in the  1990s and had to apply for a reminder of my old NI number to be sent to  me so that I could carry on using it. Officially they really push for  every UK worker to have the same number throughout rather than getting a  new one.


----------



## Annette25

Thanks Munchy, but we have our old NS cards with us, so we know our original nos.


----------



## Bronte

Annette25 said:


> If a single man has €36K left on his mortgage which is his residential home, and files for bankruptcy in the UK. Is the OR likely to take his residential home off him. It was valued at €80K for the House Propety Tax which has just come into effect in Ireland.


 
So there is equity of at least 45K to pay his debts, I cannot see why the OR wouldn't want that.  And I cannot see how the OR would have any interest in what value was put on a house by an individual for an Irish property tax.


----------



## Steve Thatcher

Annette25 said:


> F.A.O. Steve Thatcher
> Dear Steve,
> If a single man has €36K left on his mortgage which is his residential home, and files for bankruptcy in the UK. Is the OR likely to take his residential home off him. It was valued at €80K for the House Propety Tax which has just come into effect in Ireland.




Yes a single man with a house in his sole name, when he goes bankrupt will have that property vested in the OR. It is the equity that the OR wants. Someone will have to get the money to buy out the OR at some point. If not he can put a charge on it or the OR can at the extreme apply for am order for sale

Steve Thatcher
www.helpwithdebtuk.com


----------



## Bronte

Steve Thatcher said:


> If not he can put a charge on it or the OR can at the extreme apply for am order for sale


 
Steve does he normally put a charge on the property rather than ordering it to be sold. By charge I presume you mean a judgement mortgage? 

Have you any case where you saw him ordering a property to be sold. It seems this option is rarely used.  Would it be where the equity is very low what would his thinking be.


----------



## Steve Thatcher

Bronte said:


> Steve does he normally put a charge on the property rather than ordering it to be sold. By charge I presume you mean a judgement mortgage?
> 
> Have you any case where you saw him ordering a property to be sold. It seems this option is rarely used.  Would it be where the equity is very low what would his thinking be.



He would normally put a charge on, and by that it would be what we call a charging order. It would mean that when the property is eventually conveyed all the equity at that point however great it is would go to the bankruptcy estate, even if the bankrupt had been discharged many years before. Not a judgement mortgage

I have not seen a case where the OR has tried for an order for sale in Ireland. I suspect that it would be the OR's preference to try to do a deal, ie, see if someone connected with the bankrupt would buy out his interest. There would be an element of commerciality about dealing with this property.

Of course, if the OR did nothing, ie get a charge or order for sale or a deal after three years, it reverts to the ownership of the bankrupt again.

Another issue would be that someone has to pay the mortgage during all this or the bank could take possession. They would then sell. Redeem the mortgage and send the balance of the proceeds to the OR

All in all very complicated

Steve Thatcher
www.helpwithdebtuk.com


----------



## Annette25

Thanks Steve for reply, I will pass on reply to the fella, who asked me to put forward his query.


----------



## Annette25

F.A.O. Steve Thatcher,
Hi Steve,
I was listening to an interview you did on 01/11/2012 with BBC about Kilkenomics and Ireland's economy. You stated it costs the irish €5,800 to go bankrupt in the UK, but on watching all your videos on Youtube you state it costs £700. I thought if you move to the UK and set up your COMI there it costs you £700. I am confused about the different prices. Obviously if yourself helps with different areas in the bankruptcy you state for for an extra small fee you do this. Annette


----------



## Bronte

Anette, Steve is a professional and has to be paid accordingly.  So there will be his professional fee and then some expenses that pertain to going thought the bankruptcy, so I imagine a professional fee of about 5K and other costs of 700 GBP.


----------



## Bronte

Steve Thatcher said:


> He would normally put a charge on, and by that it would be what we call a charging order.


 
This has not come up on AAM before.  Only instalment orders and judgement orders.  I presume that this 'charging order' is a UK concept, it may not exist in the Irish jurisdiction.


----------



## Steve Thatcher

Annette25 said:


> F.A.O. Steve Thatcher,
> Hi Steve,
> I was listening to an interview you did on 01/11/2012 with BBC about Kilkenomics and Ireland's economy. You stated it costs the irish €5,800 to go bankrupt in the UK, but on watching all your videos on Youtube you state it costs £700. I thought if you move to the UK and set up your COMI there it costs you £700. I am confused about the different prices. Obviously if yourself helps with different areas in the bankruptcy you state for for an extra small fee you do this. Annette



Hi Annette and for anybody who picks up this link
The £700 is simply your court fee.
If you want to do all this yourself, filling the forms, getting the court set up, going to court, maybe doing a witness statement, making sure your comi is right and that you are habitually resident, that you will not be liable to an income payment order, that your property is being dealt with as you think, that the OR will be OK with you, that you can answer any question that comes your way, that you know when you can leave or any of a million other questions...
 then £700 is all you pay

If you want to be represented then there is a fee. Brendan may tell me off but frankly you asked the question

I charge £3000 plus vat plus £700 for the court fee per person.

That's it. You get a 20 yr qualified solicitor. Nobody knows this process like me. I have written off €1.5 billion in irish debt in four years.

I dont think my you tube videos are confusing but these are the fees and facts.

If I have now done something wrong on the forum, no doubt this will be deleted

Steve Thatcher
www.helpwithdebtuk.com


----------



## Annette25

Hi Steve,
Thanks for clarifying costs for me.
It is not an option for me to go to the UK to file for bankruptcy with my husband as I have a permanent job but my husband does not as he is a self employed plasterer by trade.
Some of our debts are in joint names and some are in my husband's name only. I do not have any debts in my own name.
Listed as our debts:
Repossession of Van €11,215.00 (husband's debt)
House Sale – Vat, Interest, Penalties €47,567.00 (husband's debt)
Bank of Ireland Loan (Local Branch closed down)- changed from Business A/c Overdraft		€23,700.00 (joint names)
Ulster Bank Business A/C Overdraft	€10,000.00 (joint names)
Ulster Bank Personal A/C Overdraft	€5,000.00 (joint names)
Principal Private Residence €19,500 (joint names and in equity)
Residential Investment Property (buy to let) €123,867.61 in negative equity, similar house for sale in same estate for €55K.
Liabilities under Letters of Guarantee husband company director with 3 others now in liquidation, husband's ¼ share) €79,142.50
Total debt €320K.
If husband filed for bankruptcy in UK after setting up COMI there, I was told debt would fall onto me.
If we file for joint bankruptcy in Ireland we would probably stand to lose our principal residence, which we do not want.
Any suggestions on what our best options are would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## omega42

@Steve Thatcher

First of all fair play to you for your activity on this forum, yes u may get biz out of it but the amount of free advice you give out is more than what I say you receive.

Now on to my questions 

My history

Property is shared ownership with the council bought for €140K worth about €30k now, I have moved out and offered keys back to council.

I have about €12K in unsecured debt and OH about €9k

I currently on invalidity pension and OH not working.

If we moved to the north would we be candidates for Bankruptcy?
How long would it be from when we move up to when we return to the south?
If I move up north I will be able to continue getting my pension and get it paid into a northern account. would I still have to get a National insurance number if I'm unable to work? 
I won't be in a position to make the move until next summer is there anything we can be doing in the mean time to help us along?


----------



## Steve Thatcher

Annette25 said:


> For attention of Steve Thatcher please
> 
> 1.	If a couple file for Bankruptcy in the UK and for example the husband bases his COMI (Centre of Main Interest) there, can his spouse remain in Ireland where she has permanent part-time employment?
> 
> No, only the man would be able to file for bankruptcy. Th elide would not have established her comi in the uk. There may also be problems in that situation with whether the husbands comi had truly moved
> 
> 2.	Husband was born in the UK, would this make any difference to filing for Bankruptcy? (Moved to Ireland in the 1970’s and returned to the UK in 1984 until returning to Ireland in 1997).
> 
> No, it is the re establishing the comi which is key not where you were born
> 
> 3.	Previously had a National Insurance Number (still have N. Insurance Card) from living and working in the UK from 1984 until 1997. (Married in the UK in 1985 and 3 children born there, now adults).
> Have Barclay’s Bank Account, but statements now registered to Irish address. Can the same National Insurance Number be reactivated and Bank Account changed to an English address again?
> 
> Yes
> 
> 4.	If some of the debts are in joint names, again can just the husband base his COMI in the UK or would both have to reside in the UK for a period of time? Is there any way around this?
> 
> Both
> 
> 5.	Will your Irish Revenue Debt be cleared if you file and are successful obtaining Bankruptcy in the UK?
> 
> Yes
> 
> 6.	Left the UK in 1997 owing €1,500 to HM Revenue, would this have any effect on filing for Bankruptcy in UK?
> 
> No, it too would be written off in the bankruptcy
> 
> 7. Some of my debt is with 3 other people, where we had a company that went into liquidation a few years ago. Can I file for bankruptcy with my share of the debts. We had given personal guarantees when getting the loan from Bank of Ireland.



I suspect your debt was joint and several, hence you would not be liable for any of that debt and they would be jointly left responsible for the whole


I hope this helps

Steve Thatcher
Www.helpwithdebtuk.com


----------



## cerys

*Irish bank account when bankrupt in UK*

Hi,
I hope someone can answer this. My husband and I will be going through the bankruptcy system in the UK later this year. Our current account in Ireland is with a bank that we do not owe any money to. I know they freeze your current account in the UK and advise your creditors in Ireland, but will we still be able to use this Irish current account when bankrupt. I'm currently on maternity leave and it's our only way out of a terrible mess!! We've had a terrible few years. I still will need a bank account for my wages when I return.
Regards


----------



## suarez

cerys said:


> Hi,
> I hope someone can answer this. My husband and I will be going through the bankruptcy system in the UK later this year. Our current account in Ireland is with a bank that we do not owe any money to. I know they freeze your current account in the UK and advise your creditors in Ireland, but will we still be able to use this Irish current account when bankrupt. I'm currently on maternity leave and it's our only way out of a terrible mess!! We've had a terrible few years. I still will need a bank account for my wages when I return.
> Regards



AIB and Permanent TSB are OK with allowing undischarged bankrupts to open / keep open basic bank accounts - once you don't owe them the cash. In the Statement of Affairs when petitioniong for UK bankruptcy - you are asked to provide details of all bank accounts (including statements for previous 12 months)  - both closed and open - in Ireland and the UK. I'm not sure if the OR writes to the Irish banks that aren't creditors.


----------



## virgo2011

*Can I go bankrupt in NIrl?*

Hi all,

I'm going to direct my question to Steve! Is it possible to go bankrupt in N . Irl? If yes I am assuming that UK bankruptcy rules apply. Also steve Do u help people going up to N.  Irl as I would be looking for your help.

Thx
V


----------



## Jim Stafford

It is possible to go bankrupt in NI, and the general UK bankruptcy rules apply.

However, the process of going bankrupt is much more rigorous than the mainland UK.  All NI bankruptcy applications are heard by one judge, Master Fiona Kelly, and she is very sceptical of anyone with a former ROI address attempting to apply for a "quick" bankruptcy.

In order to go bankrupt in NI you need to convince the court that you have made a "genuine" move to NI i.e. that your change of Centre of Main Interests ("COMI") is genuine.

I heard the story of one couple who attempted to go bankrupt, and she asked the husband to leave the court and asked the wife what restaurants they went to in NI, and then asked the husband back and asked him what restaurants they went to and apparently they gave different answers and she refused their application.

Applications on the mainland UK are not subject to the same level of scrutiny.

Whilst bankruptcy is still a valid option for some people, you should really consider a PIA/DSA or informal scheme of arrangement with your creditors.  Some of the banks are now doing realistic debt forgiveness deals.

Jim Stafford


----------



## no_moolah

Jim Stafford said:


> I heard the story of one couple who attempted to go bankrupt, and she asked the husband to leave the court and asked the wife what restaurants they went to in NI, and then asked the husband back and asked him what restaurants they went to and apparently they gave different answers and she refused their application.


 
Wow that's shocking ! Someone posted on here before to say that she wouldn't let them leave during the bankruptcy to move back to ROI.


----------



## suarez

I read in another post that Steve T was advising people against declaring bankruptcy in NI - due to Master Kelly's unique interpretation of the bankruptcy legislation.


----------



## madeabadcall

*Advice from Steve Thatcher & others needed please..*

Hi Steve, firstly fair play for all the advice you give on this forum. I'm sure its much appreciated by all. I still have a draft of an email I almost sent you 3yrs ago when I thought I'd have to go the UK route, but I didn't send it and battled through with the bank, but it looks like I'm running out of road now!

I've just sent an Standard Financial Statement to my bank plus other related documents, but I'm concerned when they look at my whole situation they may appoint a rent receiver to take over my buy to let properties as I'm paying them as much as I can, but I know they will want more. Or they may force me to sell everything off, but of course then I'll have a massive negative equity debt which I wont be able to pay off. So I'll have to look at the bankruptcy option. 

My question is, once they appoint a rent receiver to me, is this a legal process, and if it is, does that mean that it is too late to set wheels in motion for bankruptcy in the UK?

If they decide that the properties are to be sold, in which case they would have to apply through the courts, again would this mean that as I have been entered into the Irish legal process, it is too late to avail of the UK option?

I'm waiting to hear back from them, and in the meantime I've a few scenarios running through my mind causing me some sleepless nights. Professional advice given to me so far has been to declare myself as being insolvent and apply for bankruptcy in Ireland, but I think the UK would be a better fit for me. 

Advice would be appreciated! Thanks.


----------



## suarez

Hi Madeabadcall

The answer to both questions is 'no' - it wouldn't affect you declaring bankruptcy in the UK. 
If they want to have the properties sold - the bank does not have to apply through the courts - you can simply 'voluntarily surrender the properties' or you could use an Irish solicitor / insolvency specialist to sell them on the your / bank's behalf, while you go about organising your Centre of Main Interest in the UK. The solicitor / auctioneer fees for selling the properties would be deducted from the selling price and added to the shortfall - which is then written off in UK bankruptcy.
The advantages of the UK system over the Irish system are obvious. The UK system also offers an IVA system whereby - if someone was prepared to offer a lump sum to you - you could offer it to the banks and have everything written off without any discharge period.


----------



## madeabadcall

*Advice from Steve Thatcher & others needed please..*

Appreciate the advice Suarez. If the bank forces me to sell everything I think I should have time to go the UK route before it gets to the stage of having to make an agreement with them about what to do about the negative equity debt after all the fees are paid off. I just don't want them hitting the Irish Bankruptcy button before I hit the UK Bankruptcy one. 

Although I think I have to tell them when I have moved to the UK, so I suppose there is the possibility that they could try to rush things to get me bankrupted in Ireland while I am establishing my COMI in the UK??


----------



## Time

Nope. No bank will bother bankrupting a debtor in Ireland unless they are 100% there are assets that can be realised to cover all the debts.


----------



## suarez

time said:


> nope. No bank will bother bankrupting a debtor in ireland unless they are 100% there are assets that can be realised to cover all the debts.



+1

As Time has written - the bank will not bother bankrupting you in Ireland. Why would they bother going to the expense? I remember having the same unfounded fears as you. Overthinking everything is par for the course. If the bank forces you to sell everything or if an Irish solicitor / Insolvency company can convince the banks that they will organise the sale of your properties -it will take at least the time you need to spend in the UK to have them sold. Another option is to voluntarily surrender the properties and move to the UK. We found the optimum approach for us was to have a solicitor / insolvency arrange everything while we moved to the UK.


----------



## madeabadcall

Excellent, thanks to you both for the replies. I can relax a little so while I'm waiting to hear what the bank want to do with me.


----------



## Steve Thatcher

madeabadcall said:


> Excellent, thanks to you both for the replies. I can relax a little so while I'm waiting to hear what the bank want to do with me.



Sorry for the delay, I have been pottering about on a canal boat.

the way i usually tackle this is for you to start taking the rents for as long as you can get away with to help fund the UK move. Ok after about three months they appoint a rent receiver. So what. It doesn't alter your plans in any way. In the UK you simply ask to voluntarily surrender the properties. It's good evidence of UK comi.

No Irish bank will spend the time or money bankrupting you.

What ever you do with the property don't feel pressurised into selling it before you come over. Many operators are saying it needs to be done. It does not, it is a way for some law firms to feed at the fees trough one last time!

Steve Thatcher


----------



## madeabadcall

Thanks for the info Steve. I'm waiting to see what the bank come with, and then I'll make the decision on what I'm going to do next. 

I can transfer to our London office and I have friends in London who will sort me out for a bed while I'm looking for permanent accommodation, it's just leaving my wife and what will be our newborn baby behind is the killer. They won't be coming with me unfortunately. 

We also have a family home which is also in negative equity and also in my name only, the same as the Buy to Lets. I'd like to think we could keep it if I go the UK route, but I know this is unlikely. My wife made the good point of how could you stand in front of a judge in a London court and say your COMI is London and you will be there for the foreseeable, and still be trying to keep a family home in another country.

On another note, I know I sound paranoid, but could the OR somehow check to see if I'm flying home each weekend or fortnight, and use it against me to say I'm not really committed to being in the UK?


----------



## suarez

Re. transfer to London office - be mindful of the dangers of incurring an Income Protection Order that can last 3 years if your net income exceeds costs by as little as £20. An IPO effectively extends your discharge period by 2 years.
The OR could see your flights home if you book them using your bank accounts. Better to get your wife to book your flights home as the OR has no right to check your wife's account.
I'd talk to an Irish solicitor / insolvency company re. your home and in particular which jurisdiction is more likely to leave you remain in your home (especially if it's likely that an IPO will be granted against you in both jurisdictions - 3 years in the UK (plus 6 month COMI) versus 5 years in ireland.


----------



## DebtCert

Given that you want to keep your family home and that being separated from your family will clearly be difficult, you should be considering a Personal Insolvency Arrangement or PIA. You get to keep the house and stay home with your family.


----------



## madeabadcall

I think if I transfer to the London office, I'll just take whatever pay cut necessary to ensure I don't get IPO'd. I think I read Suarez where you were slightly over the threshold and it looked like they were going down this route with you, but you managed to convince them otherwise. It'd be a bit of a nightmare scenario if the UK option was an extra 2yrs.

Flights booked by my wife makes sense. I'd have to come home regularly with a new baby at home. 

Re family home, I think we'd be prepared to walk away from it if it meant prolonging the pain in a major way. The thing about going bankrupt in Ireland vs UK is that I would be on a much reduced salary in the UK for 1.5yrs or so, but in Ireland it'd be 3yrs. However in Ireland if I get hit with an IPO we'd be living on not much more than the dole for 5yrs minimum as the allowable expenses are low enough, and a large chunk of my salary would be taken away each year leaving us on very little to live on.

Better to take the quicker (albeit more painful) hit and try and start over again we think.     

But the other reason I don't think I would want to go down a 5 year option in Ireland is that it'd kill me if everything was taken off me, we're scraping by with almost no extra income each month as we're still paying back the bank through an IPO, and meanwhile property prices are continuing to rise and I know that if given some space by the bank, I'd have already exited negative equity and could have sold everything off and got out unscathed. 

That would be tough to deal with.


----------



## suarez

We weren't over the threshold - so managed to avoid the IPO. 
My primary reasons for choosing the UK option is the same as yours - i.e. get it over with as soon as possible.
I would seriously advise you to contact a Dublin based solicitor / insolvency expert re. selling your properties on behalf of the bank - as the advantages are surprising.
We returned to Ireland 3 weeks after being declared bankrupt as we were legally entitled to it - so we were there just over for 6 months in total - i.e. you don't have to spend 18 months over there away from your wife and child.
I would seriously consider the full and final lump sum IVA settlement - especially if you decide to sell all of your properties. I've met people recently who will only pay a fraction of what they owe (i.e. 10,000 on half a million debt). Another poster on AAM paid 40000 in full and final settlement on 4 million i.e. 1 percent IVA. The advantages of the IVA are that there is no discharge period, no chance of an IPO and no limit on the money you can earn in London. The money needs to come from a 'family member' or friend who makes it a pre-condition of the lump sum that the residual is written off and it's legally water tight in the UK. (One can always pay it back in time)


----------



## Steve Thatcher

suarez said:


> We weren't over the threshold - so managed to avoid the IPO.
> My primary reasons for choosing the UK option is the same as yours - i.e. get it over with as soon as possible.
> I would seriously advise you to contact a Dublin based solicitor / insolvency expert re. selling your properties on behalf of the bank - as the advantages are surprising.
> We returned to Ireland 3 weeks after being declared bankrupt as we were legally entitled to it - so we were there just over for 6 months in total - i.e. you don't have to spend 18 months over there away from your wife and child.
> I would seriously consider the full and final lump sum IVA settlement - especially if you decide to sell all of your properties. I've met people recently who will only pay a fraction of what they owe (i.e. 10,000 on half a million debt). Another poster on AAM paid 40000 in full and final settlement on 4 million i.e. 1 percent IVA. The advantages of the IVA are that there is no discharge period, no chance of an IPO and no limit on the money you can earn in London. The money needs to come from a 'family member' or friend who makes it a pre-condition of the lump sum that the residual is written off and it's legally water tight in the UK. (One can always pay it back in time)



Great advice from Saurez as usual.
UK sound s best
Don't worry about being away from family and the court's interpretation of that. Has never been a problem for me.
Do your comi time, let the OR deal with you then pop home.
Having a business transfer is great for comi purposes.

Steve Thatcher


----------



## madeabadcall

Thanks Suarez and Steve. I thought I had to do 6 months in UK to establish COMI, then another 12 months over there during bankruptcy, and only after I was discharged could I return home. So I was looking at 18 months in total. What you both have said puts a completely different spin on things from my point of view if it could be just 6 or 7 months in total. I cant wait to tell my wife...this really is a major thing for us.

Suarez, I will seriously consider the IVA route. My folks or brother would help me out I'm sure, depending on the size of the amount needed.

The stress is literally lifting a little as I type this. I'm away to give my heavily pregnant and patient wife some good news!

Thanks again to you both.


----------



## DebtCert

suarez said:


> I would seriously consider the full and final lump sum IVA settlement - especially if you decide to sell all of your properties. I've met people recently who will only pay a fraction of what they owe (i.e. 10,000 on half a million debt). Another poster on AAM paid 40000 in full and final settlement on 4 million i.e. 1 percent IVA. The advantages of the IVA are that there is no discharge period, no chance of an IPO and no limit on the money you can earn in London.



You can have all of these benefits under a PIA without having to set foot outside the country. It doesn't have to last 6 years. That is the maximum term. It can be as short as a few months if you are offering a lump sum via the sale of the BTLs.


----------



## Time

And the banks have a veto on that. I wouldn't waste my time having to go begging the banks.


----------



## suarez

DebtCert said:


> You can have all of these benefits under a PIA without having to set foot outside the country. It doesn't have to last 6 years. That is the maximum term. It can be as short as a few months if you are offering a lump sum via the sale of the BTLs.



The advantage of being in the UK when applying for the IVA is that if the banks refuse the IVA after the properties have been sold - one can immediately petition for bankruptcy. Whereas, if the bank refuse the lump sum PIA after the properties have been sold - one has to start building up the 6 month UK COMI from scratch.


----------



## madeabadcall

Based on what Suarez has said, maybe there is a possibility that a lump sum of €10k to €15k might be accepted in an IVA situation in the UK  to clear my circa €500k debt once all properties are sold off. I think I could raise this from friends and family. 

I'd be delighted if that would clear my debt under a PIA in Ireland... but as they know my earnings, it'd make more sense for them to extract as much as they can from me over a 5 year period I think. Then again if I'm forced to sell my family home, renting a family home wouldn't be cheap and there may be very little surplus each month, if any..


----------



## DebtCert

Time said:


> And the banks have a veto on that. I wouldn't waste my time having to go begging the banks.



It isn't a veto as such. It is a threshold requiring 65% of creditors by value to approve it.  That compares to the 75% required in E&W to approve an IVA.


----------



## DebtCert

suarez said:


> The advantage of being in the UK when applying for the IVA is that if the banks refuse the IVA after the properties have been sold - one can immediately petition for bankruptcy. Whereas, if the bank refuse the lump sum PIA after the properties have been sold - one has to start building up the 6 month UK COMI from scratch.



No need to sell the properties first. Make their sale part of the PIA proposal so they get sold and the sale proceeds handed over IF the PIA is agreed.  Your PIP gets a protective certificate which keeps you safe from creditor actions. 70 days from getting the protective certificate you will get a 'yes' or a 'no' to the proposal. That's the law. 3 out of 4 arrangements are getting agreed though the numbers are still low. 

If it is a yes then happy days. If it is a no, bankruptcy either here or in the UK is the next logical step. I can't see how it could be good advice anymore to tell anyone to go straight to bankruptcy.


----------



## Time

> I can't see how it could be good advice anymore to tell anyone to go straight to bankruptcy.


It is when you know full well that the banks will exercise their veto.


----------



## DebtCert

Again, 75% being agreed is evidence to the contrary.


----------



## DebtCert

madeabadcall said:


> Then again if I'm forced to sell my family home, renting a family home wouldn't be cheap and there may be very little surplus each month, if any..



You can't be forced to sell your home under either a DSA or. PIA. You keep your home. You can't be sure of keeping it in bankruptcy. Making a payment from your income is possible but it doesn't have to happen. If you are offering up the BTLs and bringing in a lump sum from a third party then you have a good chance of getting an accelerated arrangement. It's possible you could be in and out in a few months.


----------



## madeabadcall

Thanks DebtCert. I'll know more about what to do when the bank gets back to me with what they deem to be my options. I'd then be best speaking with a PIP for them to advise on what to do next. It'd be very interesting to see what size lump sums they might accept to clear a €500k negative equity debt. My mortgage is not with BOI.

A solicitors firm I met recently told me there should be no need to go to the UK, that there would be good options here, and they would put me in contact with a PIP when I hear from the bank. So I'll wait and see..

Thanks again.


----------



## octoberice

suarez when you returned to Ireland after 3 weeks did to inform the OR, or what was the procedure you took.


----------

