# Man caught doing 208km/h on motorway jailed for three months



## Brendan Burgess (7 May 2016)

*Man caught doing 208km/h on motorway jailed for three months*


*In late January on the M7 motorway between Monasterevin & Kildare where speed limit is 120km. The road was wet & temperature was 4•c with plenty of traffic.*


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## RichInSpirit (8 May 2016)

I wonder what kind of car he had.


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## Romulan (8 May 2016)

I do a good bit of driving around Dublin, outside of the M50 and speeding is on a steady upward curve.
Try driving the N4 at 80KPH and watch all the cars fly past you.
Ditto N7 at 100KPH.

It is also now a given that at least one car will be running the lights when you get your green.
I've had people go nuts behind me because I have not done the same.

And I regularly see people looking down at mobile phones, N4, N7, N3, M50 and everywhere else.
Not unusual to see people coming onto the M50 at busy times using a mobile or indeed driving down the "middle lane".


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## twofor1 (8 May 2016)

208 Km/h is some speed to be driving.

But many common, even family cars have top speeds near or exceeding that.

AFAIK, in Ireland;

Double Deck buses are required to have speed limiters fitted and set at 64 Km/h, their maximum permitted speed.

Trucks are required to have speed limiters fitted and set at 90 Km/h, their maximum legal motorway speed.

Coaches are required to have speed limiters fitted and set at 100 Km/h, their maximum legal motorway speed.

Why are cars not obliged to have speed limiters fitted and set at 120 Km/h, their maximum legal motorway speed ?


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## Delboy (8 May 2016)

Why isn't he named?


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## Romulan (8 May 2016)

You should be able to opt into speed limiters for cheaper insurance.

Unfortunately speed limiters do not work with "Baby on Board" stickers, cars pulling trailers and L drivers on motorways.
They seem to work exceptionally well though for those who prefer the "middle lane", as well as locking them into the lane like a train on a track.

And the RSA need to redo the "Give cycles a wide berth" ads and clarify that this does not give you a license to overtake on bends and continuous white lines.
Something else that has become increasingly common - law of unintended consequences methinks


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## losttheplot (8 May 2016)

Pity the offenders licence can't be changed to make him eligible to only drive cars with a 1L engine. The embarrassment of having to come down from a high powered Audi / BMW to a Micra or the like would probably be more effective than any fines for some people.

Why not have fixed speed cameras at all the entry and exit points on the motorway or at each bridge over the motorway. So if there is a distance of 10km between two cameras, and you cover that in less than 5 minutes, you've been speeding (you can cover 2km per minute at 120km/h). Chances of being caught speeding is too low, most people will slow down for the speed camera and speed up again when out of sight.


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## twofor1 (8 May 2016)

Romulan said:


> Unfortunately speed limiters do not work with "Baby on Board" stickers, cars pulling trailers and L drivers on motorways.



In my experience, with the exception of the occasional foreign registration who might have a higher limit, and the odd cowboy (Milk trucks mostly) who risk heavy penalties by tampering with the speed limiter, generally, Trucks and Coaches on our motorways, speed wise anyway, are compliant.

The same could be the case with cars, if speed limiters were mandatory.


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## Brendan Burgess (9 May 2016)

losttheplot said:


> Pity the offenders licence can't be changed to make him eligible to only drive cars with a 1L engine.



That is a brilliant idea.  When people apply to get their license back for work reasons, it should be conditional on driving a less dangerous car. 

But why a 1L  engine? 

What's wrong with a Fiat 500 ( I presume that they are 500 cc.) 

Brendan


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## Gordon Gekko (9 May 2016)

Devil's advocate...it can be hard to hold the modern car back. 140kph can feel like 80kph. Our motorway network is better and our cars are better. And look at Germany...conservative, but no speed limit on the autobahn.


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## thedaddyman (9 May 2016)

N4 never ceases to amaze me as it is a blackspot for speed cameras. I know so many people who've been caught there yet any time I am on it and sticking to 80, cars zip by me. not sure 80 is appropriate on all of it though which is another story. I was driving a country road yesterday in Waterford with a speed limit of 100 which was far more dangerous.

Tootling down the m8 on Saturday in the passenger seat and over a 10 minute period we passed 5 people on the phone. It especially annoys me to see people in expensive new cars holding the phone, most of them come with blue tooth as standard these days

There was some cases recently in Kilarney as well where a judge fined some boy races €4k-€5k each for their antics, maybe it's the beginning of a clamp down.


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## PGF2016 (9 May 2016)

Gordon Gekko said:


> it can be hard to hold the modern car back



Sorry but it's not hard to hold the modern car back.


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## Gordon Gekko (9 May 2016)

PGF2016 said:


> Sorry but it's not hard to hold the modern car back.



Sorry, but travelling at 120kph in a modern car on a modern motorway is a world away from driving 20 years ago.


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## pinkie123 (9 May 2016)

Romulan said:


> You should be able to opt into speed limiters for cheaper insurance.
> 
> Unfortunately speed limiters do not work with "Baby on Board" stickers, cars pulling trailers and L drivers on motorways.



Whats wrong with pulling a trailer??


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## PGF2016 (9 May 2016)

Gordon Gekko said:


> Sorry, but travelling at 120kph in a modern car on a modern motorway is a world away from driving 20 years ago.



That's true. But it's not what you said in the previous post. You said it was hard to hold modern cars back. 

The speed limits on motorways are too low but 208 kmph on a cold and wet road is ridiculous and should be punished heavily.


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## twofor1 (9 May 2016)

pinkie123 said:


> Whats wrong with pulling a trailer??



I’d guess what Romulan is referring to is the fact that most cars / jeeps etc towing trailers appear to be oblivious to the 80Km/h speed limit that apply to them on motorways.

Page 114 here;

http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Learner Drivers/Rules_of_the_road.pdf


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## peno (9 May 2016)

But where is the consistency on prosecutions.

http://www.limerickpost.ie/2014/10/08/speeding-limerick-beauty-queen-praised-for-honesty/

Is the extra 20 kph worth 3 months in Jail


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## Gordon Gekko (9 May 2016)

PGF2016 said:


> That's true. But it's not what you said in the previous post. You said it was hard to hold modern cars back.



I'm saying the exact same thing?!

If travelling at 120kph in a modern car on a modern road feels like you aren't travelling at that speed, it's fair to say that modern cars are hard to hold back.


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## pinkie123 (9 May 2016)

twofor1 said:


> I’d guess what Romulan is referring to is the fact that most cars / jeeps etc towing trailers appear to be oblivious to the 80Km/h speed limit that apply to them on motorways.
> 
> Page 114 here;
> 
> http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Learner Drivers/Rules_of_the_road.pdf



Fair enough, I do agree. I regularly tow and I consider 80 high with my precious cargo - it's unbelievable the speed people do with animals in a trailer. Do they not realise the consequences if you have to brake.


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## Purple (9 May 2016)

I see people on the M50 on the phone just about every day.

I was behind a woman two weeks ago on the same road who was on Facebook. I often see drivers looking up/down/up/down etc as they text while driving.

Just about every day I see busses breaking the speed limit, changing lanes without indicating and pulling into and out of stops without indicating.

The Gardai seem to be exempt from using their indicator as well.  


We are not great at practicing best practice on our roads.


It can be hard to keep within the speed limit on inter-city motorways, especially the empty one between Dublin and Waterford, but there’s no way anyone is not going to realise they are over the speed limit when they are doing 208kmph (130mph).

In my experience the worst offenders for speeding and aggressive driving are middle aged men in SUV’s, not boy-racers or BMW/Audi drivers.


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## MrEarl (10 May 2016)

Brendan Burgess said:


> That is a brilliant idea.  When people apply to get their license back for work reasons, it should be conditional on driving a less dangerous car.
> 
> But why a 1L  engine?
> 
> ...




Sure why not go the rest of the way and just restrict the driver to cycling ... if he needs to carry samples for work, he can have a basket on the front of his bike and a carrier on the back of it 




Gordon Gekko said:


> Devil's advocate...it can be hard to hold the modern car back. 140kph can feel like 80kph. Our motorway network is better and our cars are better. And look at Germany...conservative, but no speed limit on the autobahn.



I agree.

In reality, we have a few problems when it comes to driving on Irish roads:

- Our road speeds are not appropriate for our motorways and modern cars. Both cars and motorways are constructed to facilitate higher speeds and our legislators need to attend to this. The problem is made worse by the fact that we have motorways with speed limits below the 120km limit, for no good reason (i.e significant parts of the M50).

- Some drivers appear unable to comprehend the simple concept of how overtaking works on a Motorway (or any road with more than one lane, for that matter).  It's very simple, drivers are not supposed to cruise along in the outside lane, it's for overtaking.  People "sitting" in the outside lane frustrate others and provoke them to use one of the inside lane to overtake, with the problem further inflamed by those overtaking drivers then doing higher speeds in the inside lane, simple to overtake the offending vehicle.

Notwithstanding the above, I would have concerns that a significant percentage of our drivers do not have the appropriate skillsets or the correct mindset, to be trusted on a motorway with no speed limit and thats before we get down to how well their cars are maintained (i.e. tyre tread depth, as one example).

I'm all for having laws, but lets have sensible laws if we are going to be expected to obey them....


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## MrEarl (10 May 2016)

While we are at it,  here  is the current list of penality points for the various offenses...

There are numerous penalties on that list, where the penality has no reflection on the severety of the offence !

*Obvious examples:*

Failure to act in accordance with a Garda signal = 1 point
Driving a vehicle on a motorway against the flow of traffic = 2 points
Failure to stop when so required by a member of the Garda Síochána = 2 points
... so, by current rules I could drive down the motorway in the wrong direction, ignoring a Garda trying to discourage me at the initial stage and then ignoring the Garda further when they order me to stop and still only get 5 points !

Then such small penalties for learner drivers driving without a fully licenced driver in the car, or people driving with tyre treads below the legal limit etc.

Is it any wonder with this type of stuff that people ignore the rules of the road ?

Absolute madness, in my view !


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## Cervelo (10 May 2016)

I was always under the impression that when a Motorway ran through a city i.e. a ring road that the normal rules were normally ignored by most drivers.
I have witnessed this on many European Motorways and in the States, that when outside city limits most people only use the outside lane for overtaking but when they reach city limits they use whatever lane is moving the fastest, a perfect example of this is French Motorways and the Paris Ringroad.


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## Romulan (10 May 2016)

I'd say that there is more speeding on the N roads with the 80/100 limits than the M roads.
Motorways tend to be more "settled" even with a 100 limit.

I am however always puzzled by those on the N4 who speed on the 80 stretch and then drop speed when the reach the 120 section.
I think they are a cross over with those that stay in the overtaking lane regardless when they hit the M4 and then switch at the last minute
to take the J6 exit.


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## thedaddyman (11 May 2016)

It was scary to watch prime time last night about written off cars, especially the one that had been formally "written off" twice, was still on the road and they were able to get  insurance for it. There are an awful lot of bangers on the roads and maybe because the cars themselves are largely worthless, the quality of the driving of them seems to leave a bit to be desired. Guy I work with has a 98 something with so many dents in it it's scary

Having said that, and speaking as someone who drives over 1000km most weeks as a commuter, the real scary guys for me are most Audi drivers and many BMW and VW Passat drivers. If I am on the left lane on the M-Way home on the limit via cruise control, if I am going to get passed at speed then 4 times out of 5 it will be by a driver driving one of those cars. I don't think the test gives drivers of powerful cars the skillset to drive them and an enhanced licence should be required before you can drive anything above a 1.4


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## twofor1 (11 May 2016)

Have to agree re the Audi and BMW's, if I am in the outside lane doing 120 Kph, overtaking slower vehicles in the left lane, the car up my This post will be deleted if not edited to remove bad language often with headlights flashing, will usually be an Audi or BMW.

Why are cars capable of ridiculously high speeds, even a basic 1.3 Toyota Corolla has a top speed of 180 Kph, that's 60 Kph more than the maximum motorway speed limit in this country, many bigger cars are capable of nearly double the maximum motorway speed, seems daft to me.


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## MrEarl (11 May 2016)

thedaddyman said:


> It was scary to watch prime time last night about written off cars, especially the one that had been formally "written off" twice, was still on the road and they were able to get  insurance for it. There are an awful lot of bangers on the roads and maybe because the cars themselves are largely worthless, the quality of the driving of them seems to leave a bit to be desired. Guy I work with has a 98 something with so many dents in it it's scary



I agree with you there.

But what are we doing to remove those cars from the roads ? ... it strikes me that there is little or no enforcement, when it comes to some of the "bangers" we seen being driven around.  Dare I ask if the Gardai are checking the cars the traveling community are using for example, to ensure they are road worthy, NCT'd, insured etc ?  I have personally seen a number of cars coming out of some well know traveler community locations, which do not look safe.



thedaddyman said:


> Having said that, and speaking as someone who drives over 1000km most weeks as a commuter, the real scary guys for me are most Audi drivers and many BMW and VW Passat drivers. If I am on the left lane on the M-Way home on the limit via cruise control, if I am going to get passed at speed then 4 times out of 5 it will be by a driver driving one of those cars. I don't think the test gives drivers of powerful cars the skillset to drive them and an enhanced licence should be required before you can drive anything above a 1.4



When overtaking, obviously people have to accelorate.  By default, if people are driving at the speed limit, then the person overtaking is going to go faster and ideally, significantly faster to complete the manoeuvre quickly.  That said, I take the point about breaking the speed limit here obviously.

Lets then ask ourselves, what sort of cars are more suited to overtaking at higher speeds - cars with large powerful engines such as Audis, BMWs, Mercs etc. which have all been designed or made in Germany, with motorway driving in mind... or SUVs and small Nissan Micras etc ?

I would suggest that peole know their cars, by virtue of driving them.  Thats relevant experience when it comes to driving them and is important when knowing about how your car reacts to breaking, accelorating, turning etc.  

Having said that, I would immediately support the concept of having an enhanced licence before permitting people to drive higher powered cars, but I think the limit would be more suited to over 2ltre engines, not 1.4ltrs as you suggest.  We need to be practical here, think about engine size for comfortable journeys where you have a family of five in a car for example.



twofor1 said:


> Have to agree re the Audi and BMW's, if I am in the outside lane doing 120 Kph, overtaking slower vehicles in the left lane, the car up my This post will be deleted if not edited to remove bad language often with headlights flashing, will usually be an Audi or BMW.
> 
> Why are cars capable of ridiculously high speeds, even a basic 1.3 Toyota Corolla has a top speed of 180 Kph, that's 60 Kph more than the maximum motorway speed limit in this country, many bigger cars are capable of nearly double the maximum motorway speed, seems daft to me.



My comments about some of the cars you mention above refer.

As for your question about why we have cars with more powerful engines, why don't you ask yourself why we don't have laws appropriate to the type of cars readily available in today's market and required by consumers ? ... Ireland's failure to legislate correctly for driving (ref: the points system above, not just speed limits) seems "daft to me".  I find myself wondering if we would have ever progressed from the horse and cart, if we applied the same reasoning as you seem to be applying in your comment above


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## MrEarl (11 May 2016)

For all of the money the Government takes from drivers on VRT, Road Tax, VAT on fuel etc.....

* We do not have a well maintained road network (aside from primary roads, or parts of Kerry where a certain politcal family get things done)
* We do not have appropriate laws or enforcement of same
* We do not appear to be taking appropriate action to improve the problems we all know exist

All that said, I hold the Government responsible and not the Gardai.  It's very clear that the Gardai are under resourced and have to focus their efforts on wherever they are needed most - which in truth, should not have to be policing the speed limit on a motorway, checking NCTs & Road Tax etc.

I suppose we must remember that we have a small country with limited financial resources and we would be better off spending our limited funds on paying politcans who refused to form a government for ten weeks, then giving a few of them payrises by making the ministers in any new category we can think up


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## twofor1 (11 May 2016)

Good afternoon Mr. Earl, apologies I am unable to use the quote or link functions.

I don't agree with your suggestion that we have laws appropriate to the types of cars readily available in today's market.

In my opinion 120 Kph is the appropriate maximum speed limit for our motorways, just because that BMW might safely travel at a higher speed in other countries, does not mean it can travel safely at a higher speed on the M8 here.​


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## Purple (11 May 2016)

The speed limit on the M50 is set at 100kmph because of the junction frequency. There is just too much traffic entering and exiting the road to have a higher limit.

It is factually accurate to say that a 5-series BMW is safer to drive at 140kmph than a Nissan Micra at 120kmph. The 5-series will have s shorter stopping distance and will be designed to drive at or above that speed in general usage.

I drove a crocked Citroen AX many years ago. There’s no way it was safe at 120kmph and yet it was legal to drive at that speed so yes, the car type has a bearing on what speed the driver should go at. That said speed limits are just that; the maximum speed you should drive at. There’s no law saying you can’t drive on a motorway at 60kmph (although there should be as that’s much more dangerous to other road users than driving at 160kmph).


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## Jazz01 (11 May 2016)

agree with most posters, but regardless of what car is being driven - it's the attitude of the person driving that is usually the problem, not the car. Granted, the car may be a "banger" / not suitable for higher speed driving, BUT the driver should be aware of such limitation of the car. We can blame the government, lack of gardaí enforcement , but in the end, each & every driver makes the decision when they exceed the recommended speed limit, drive through red lights, cut into a lane, jump a queue of traffic etc etc etc


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## MrEarl (12 May 2016)

Jazz01 said:


> .....it's the attitude of the person driving that is usually the problem, not the car. ....



Very good point !

(although quality of the car, experience of the driver, road quality etc. are also contributing factors I'm sure you would agree )


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## MrEarl (12 May 2016)

twofor1 said:


> Good afternoon Mr. Earl, apologies I am unable to use the quote.....



Hello,

If you press the "Quote" button on the bottom right hand side of each person's comment, you can quote then in your post.  Simply then press the "Insert Quotes" botton on the bottom left hand side of the box you are typing your new comment in.

Once the quote appears in your posting box, simply delete the parts you don't want where necessary 

Otherwise, you just type and post as usual.




twofor1 said:


> I don't agree with your suggestion that we have laws appropriate to the types of cars readily available in today's market.
> 
> In my opinion 120 Kph is the appropriate maximum speed limit for our motorways, just because that BMW might safely travel at a higher speed in other countries, does not mean it can travel safely at a higher speed on the M8 here.​




While I appreciate that you do not agree with me and I respect your opinion, can you please expand a little more on your comments ?


Why do you not think that laws should not be influened by the type of cars available in today's market (which are used by a significant number of drivers) ?    ... obviously, the quality of the road, experience and skills of the driver are other considerations here btw.
Why do you think 120km is the appropriate speed limit and not 150km, or 80km ?
Also, why would a car which has probably been designed for motorway driving, possibly be safer at a higher speed in other countries, than in Ireland (assuming we focus on just motorways for a moment) ?


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## Seagull (12 May 2016)

MrEarl said:


> Why do you not think that laws should not be influenced by the type of cars available in today's market (which are used by a significant number of drivers) ?    ... obviously, the quality of the road, experience and skills of the driver are other considerations here btw.
> Why do you think 120km is the appropriate speed limit and not 150km, or 80km ?
> Also, why would a car which has probably been designed for motorway driving, possibly be safer at a higher speed in other countries, than in Ireland (assuming we focus on just motorways for a moment) ?



My view would be
1. You need to legislate to the worst/average car on the road, not for the high performance cars. You also need to legislate based on the average driver. You need to assume 60 year olds in micras, rather than Lewis Hamilton in a Ferrari.
3. Because of the standard of Irish driving, especially on motorways

And I'm afraid I'm skipping 2. I don't know what research the speed limit is based on. I'm presuming there's more behind it than someone sucking it out their thumb.


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## PGF2016 (12 May 2016)

Is motor way driving a problem in Ireland from a safety perspective? I would have thought the majority of fatalities happen on secondary roads.


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## cremeegg (12 May 2016)

Purple said:


> I see people on the M50 on the phone just about every day.
> 
> I was behind a woman two weeks ago on the same road who was on Facebook. I often see drivers looking up/down/up/down etc as they text while driving.



This is the reality of driving today. What we need is to mare it safer, self-driving cars, road trains. Big fuel efficiency gains too.


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## Jazz01 (12 May 2016)

MrEarl said:


> although quality of the car, experience of the driver, road quality etc. are also contributing factors I'm sure you would agree



yip - agree on that.. contributing factors indeed


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## twofor1 (13 May 2016)

MrEarl said:


> Why do you not think that laws should not be influened by the type of cars available in today's market (which are used by a significant number of drivers) ?    ... obviously, the quality of the road, experience and skills of the driver are other considerations here btw.
> Why do you think 120km is the appropriate speed limit and not 150km, or 80km ?
> Also, why would a car which has probably been designed for motorway driving, possibly be safer at a higher speed in other countries, than in Ireland (assuming we focus on just motorways for a moment) ?



1. Our laws should be appropriate to what is safe, nothing else.
No matter how many safety features you have in a car, it still has to be driven, and drivers make mistakes.
It is also worth pointing out that not everyone has that high spec modern car. You cannot have one law for the 06 Micra and another for the 161 BMW.

2. After many years of driving, and bearing in mind our roads, cars and drivers, I think 120 Kph is the appropriate maximum speed on our motorways. I would not feel safe travelling any faster in a car, anyone that wants to travel faster than that should maybe fly. That’s my opinion, I accept others might differ.


3. It’s not all about the car, in my experience, the standard of driving on our motorways is appalling.
Many appear to be totally unfamiliar with the rules of the road regarding motorways; joining / exiting, lane discipline, overtaking and in particular braking distances for motorway speeds.
Other countries appear to have a far higher standard of motorway driving so are possibly safer at higher speeds.


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## pauric (13 May 2016)

The fact that you can obtain a full license without ever have driven on a motorway needs a serious looking at.

I guess it would be difficult for regional counties which don't have motorways to be able to test this but it needs reviewing.

I drive a BMW and often flash the idiot infront of me driving in the overtaking lane while not overtaking. Even if he is doing 208kmph he has no right to be there. Most of these clowns however are driving below the speed limit. I end up having to undertake them and then I continue to drive in the left lane.

It has nothing to do with what car I drive, I would flash him/her if I was driving a Micra also


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## twofor1 (13 May 2016)

pauric said:


> The fact that you can obtain a full license without ever have driven on a motorway needs a serious looking at.



Without doubt some motorway driving under supervision would be beneficial for learners, and going forward would definitely help to resolve our poor motorway standards.

However a lot of the bad driving is been done by the older experienced drivers, some of whom have never seen motorway rules. When I did my test the rules of the road didn’t mention motorways because there weren’t any here. The first of the motorways started to appear here, I think in the mid-eighties.

 I made it my business though to familiarise myself with motorway rules, if all the other supposedly experienced drivers were to do the same, our motorways could be a lot safer.


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## MrEarl (13 May 2016)

Seagull said:


> My view would be
> 1. You need to legislate to the worst/average car on the road, not for the high performance cars. You also need to legislate based on the average driver. You need to assume 60 year olds in micras, rather than Lewis Hamilton in a Ferrari.
> 3. Because of the standard of Irish driving, especially on motorways
> 
> And I'm afraid I'm skipping 2. I don't know what research the speed limit is based on. I'm presuming there's more behind it than someone sucking it out their thumb.



I am of the view that the "worst" cars on the road need to be removed, permanently.  There is no place for 60 year old micras on the roads, imho.

In part, this can be done by scrappage deals from time to time, but in part this needs suitable and constant enforcement.  The days of being able to buy a "banger" need to go immediately - this means stopping their sale at the source (i.e. put a stop to the likes of the travelers selling them on the edge of the Malahide Road, near Darndale for example) and having the existing ones removed from their owners (if they won't trade them in against safer cars, then simply force them to be scrapped).

I agree entirely about the point on the average driver and hte standards of Irish driving.

I see this as requiring a couple of things, we need to:
- force all drivers to pay closer attention to the rules of the road, maintanance of their vehicles etc.  In simple terms, we need to force drivers to keep high standards
- raise the standard for new drivers (this means more tuition, more testing and I would also propose, an advanced driving licence for those wishing to use motorways)




PGF2016 said:


> Is motor way driving a problem in Ireland from a safety perspective? I would have thought the majority of fatalities happen on secondary roads.



So would I, although I have not seen any statistics.

Day or night also play their part (with sadly, a lot of drivers being killed on the roads late at night)




twofor1 said:


> 1. Our laws should be appropriate to what is safe, nothing else.
> No matter how many safety features you have in a car, it still has to be driven, and drivers make mistakes.
> It is also worth pointing out that not everyone has that high spec modern car. You cannot have one law for the 06 Micra and another for the 161 BMW.
> 
> ...



You are obviously correct about drivers making mistakes, but thats always going to be a risk.  It is not influened by the speed a driver travels at and sadly, a person can be killed in a car due to a mistake, while traveling at quite alow speed (perhaps 50kms for example).

We also agree about the type of car people drive.  My comments above about removing the "bangers" is relevant here, although only one consideration.  I also think certain small engine cars should not be permitted on motorways (and this must be enforced) - by extension, I believe you can have different laws, for different cars.

While I respect your opinion on how safe you would be happy to drive, you say it yourself, others will differ.  But how we do we decide on whats safe and whats appropriate, do we rely on one person's opinion, or do we follow the German autobahn system etc ?  Also, how do we ensure that what was once appropriate remains appropriate (periodic reviews must play a part) ?

We also agree about the standard of driving (on motorways, but also elsewhere).  I refer you to my comments above, in respect to the previous poster.  More and more I am growing convinced that motorway driving must have different laws, requiring advanced driving tests and licences along with only certain categories of vehicles.  Advanced tests and licences, requiring a driver to have X years driving experience may help improve standards, but enforcement is equally essential (drivers on mobile phones, cars without safe typres etc.)




pauric said:


> The fact that you can obtain a full license without ever have driven on a motorway needs a serious looking at.
> 
> I guess it would be difficult for regional counties which don't have motorways to be able to test this but it needs reviewing.
> 
> ...



I agree with you on the point about licences and refer to my suggestion above - two types of tests and licences, the advanced only permitting use of motorways.  We have enough motorways nationwide, to facilitate regional testing centres for an advanced motorway licence system.

Like you, I flash "idiots" in front of me and consider them a danger to us all.  By holding up the outside lane, the are increasing the risk of accident or occasional road rage, be their actions through individual stupidity or deliberate intention.  You have said it yourself (and I appreciate the honesty, as we all know it happens every hour, not alone every day), it puts you in a situation where you use a lane to the left for overtaking and thats taking a risk.


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## Purple (16 May 2016)

MrEarl said:


> Like you, I flash "idiots" in front of me and consider them a danger to us all. By holding up the outside lane, the are increasing the risk of accident or occasional road rage, be their actions through individual stupidity or deliberate intention. You have said it yourself (and I appreciate the honesty, as we all know it happens every hour, not alone every day), it puts you in a situation where you use a lane to the left for overtaking and thats taking a risk.


It is illegal to undertake. I agree that the person in the wrong lane is the root cause of the problem but you don't compound their stupidity by doing something illegal yourself.
If you are driving in the correct lane and there is a slower driver in an outside lane then it's ok to just stay where you are and go past them but if you change lanes, i.e. maneuver left, to pass them then you are joining them in the "dangerous idiot" club.


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## twofor1 (16 May 2016)

Purple said:


> If you are driving in the correct lane and there is a slower driver in an outside lane then it's ok to just stay where you are and go past them ...........



That’s news to me.

I agree with most of your post, but have to disagree with this.

The rules of the road re motorway overtaking are clear – _‘’Overtake only on the right’’_, the only exception being when traffic is moving in slow moving queues.

Page 145 here;

http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Learner Drivers/Rules_of_the_road.pdf

If some ‘’idiot’’, on a 120 Kph motorway decides to drive at 100 Kph in the outside lane, he/she is wrong to do so, but to overtake on the left, even if already in the left lane is also wrong, dangerous and illegal.


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## Gordon Gekko (16 May 2016)

Is that overtaking though?


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## twofor1 (16 May 2016)

Gordon Gekko said:


> Is that overtaking though?



I won’t argue with you, but my guess is a garda or judge would consider it as overtaking, even if in the left lane.


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## Gordon Gekko (16 May 2016)

twofor1 said:


> I won’t argue with you, but my guess is a garda or judge would consider it as overtaking, even if in the left lane.



I don't know the answer, but I would have thought that overtaking implies some form of manoeuvre. If I'm driving on an empty l motorway in the left lane at (say) 120kph and I come across a car in the overtaking lane which is travelling at 60kph, what should I do? And does simply continuing on constitute "overtaking"?


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## Joe_90 (16 May 2016)

I understand that passing someone on the left hand side is "undertaking" although the "rules of the road" say that you should only overtake on the right unless the traffic on your right is a slow moving queue when you can overtake on the left.

There are parts of the M50 where there are 4 lanes with the left most lane being an exit lane, I understand that this exit lane is a lane to itself.


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## Ceist Beag (17 May 2016)

I have a feeling we're revisiting a previous thread on overtaking vs passing on the left here!


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## Purple (17 May 2016)

Ceist Beag said:


> I have a feeling we're revisiting a previous thread on overtaking vs passing on the left here!


That's what I was thinking.
My general answer is to imagine a driver on the outside (far right) lane doing 30kmph on the motorway. Should all the traffic in the other lanes slow down to ensure they don't pass him? (answer: of course they shouldn't!).


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## Purple (17 May 2016)

Gordon Gekko said:


> I don't know the answer, but I would have thought that overtaking implies some form of manoeuvre.


 Yes, of course it does. If you read the rules of the road it mentions maneuvering when laying out how to overtake another vehicle. And yes, I've clarified this with two Gardai and a district court judge.


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## Leo (17 May 2016)

twofor1 said:


> The rules of the road...



Don't rely on the Rules of The Road as published by the RSA as the definitive guide to the Road Traffic Acts. In particular, look for where they use the word 'should' versus 'must'. Where they use 'must', what follows is generally prescribed by law, where they use 'should', their advice is usually based on interpretation and what they consider reasonable.


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## MrEarl (17 May 2016)

Hello,

In appreciation of the point regarding it being wrong to overtake in the left lane (exception noted from the posts above), then do we agree that people driving continuously in the overtaking lane (particularly those doing below the speed limit) are then essentially driving dangerously - given then may cause an accident, by preventing others from using the motorway correctly ?


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## Purple (17 May 2016)

MrEarl said:


> Hello,
> 
> In appreciation of the point regarding it being wrong to overtake in the left lane (exception noted from the posts above), then do we agree that people driving continuously in the overtaking lane (particularly those doing below the speed limit) are then essentially driving dangerously - given then may cause an accident, by preventing others from using the motorway correctly ?


Absolutely. Any time you force another car to make an unnecessary maneuver you are driving dangerously.
I can't say I have never driven behind someone and flashed them to pull over when they are in the overtaking lane.
There are still some stupid people who refer to a "fast lane" rather than an overtaking lane.


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## vincentgav (3 Jun 2016)

PGF2016 said:


> Is motor way driving a problem in Ireland from a safety perspective? I would have thought the majority of fatalities happen on secondary roads.



You would have thought that based on what, your own guess? Driving at 208kmh is a safety issue, wasn't that obvious? Isn't that clear? It probably was to most people.


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## PGF2016 (3 Jun 2016)

vincentgav said:


> You would have thought that based on what, your own guess? Driving at 208kmh is a safety issue, wasn't that obvious? Isn't that clear? It probably was to most people.


I've based my observation on the fact that it's very rare that deaths on motorways are reported in the news and that most reports are of deaths on secondary roads. That's anecdotal evidence.

Of course driving at 208kmh is a safety issue. Did I say otherwise?

Interesting that you picked my post out of an old thread.


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## T McGibney (3 Jun 2016)

Of course motorways are far safer than ordinary single-carriageway roads. That's why we've built them in the first instance and a good part of the reason why our road casualty stats have dropped sharply in the past decade.

It's also worth noting again that the majority of German motorways have no speed limit whatsoever and their road casualty rates are lower than ours. So it's quite possible that driving at 208kmh in a given set of circumstances may well not be a safety issue at all.


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## AlbacoreA (3 Jun 2016)

I decided to look it up...



> On speed-unrestricted stretches, an advisory speed limit(_Richtgeschwindigkeit_) of 130 kilometres per hour (81 mph) applies. ......
> 
> ....A 2008 estimate reported that 52% of the autobahn network had only the advisory speed limit, 15% had temporary speed limits due to weather or traffic conditions, and 33% had permanent speed limits.[


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## twofor1 (3 Jun 2016)

T McGibney said:


> It's also worth noting again that the majority of German motorways have no speed limit whatsoever and their road casualty rates are lower than ours. So it's quite possible that driving at 208kmh in a given set of circumstances may well not be a safety issue at all.



I have never been on the Autobahn, how many lanes does it have in each direction ? I’m guessing it is more than the 2 lanes that we have for the vast majority of our motorway network.

If that is the case, is it fair to make comparisons ?


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## T McGibney (5 Jun 2016)

twofor1 said:


> I have never been on the Autobahn, how many lanes does it have in each direction ? I’m guessing it is more than the 2 lanes that we have for the vast majority of our motorway network.
> 
> If that is the case, is it fair to make comparisons ?


You're asking based on a guess?


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## twofor1 (5 Jun 2016)

T McGibney said:


> You're asking based on a guess?



What's wrong with that ?


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## T McGibney (7 Jun 2016)

twofor1 said:


> What's wrong with that ?



Because at the very least, I'd expect you to at least do some basic research before you question the fairness of the comparison I made.


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## twofor1 (7 Jun 2016)

T McGibney said:


> It's also worth noting again that the majority of German motorways have no speed limit whatsoever and their road casualty rates are lower than ours. So it's quite possible that driving at 208kmh in a given set of circumstances may well not be a safety issue at all.



I accept it might be safe to drive faster in Germany, but do not think it is fair to make comparisons between German and Irish motorways.

I have never been on a German motorway, I have been on several other European motorways, I am a frequent user of Irish motorways. In the past I have heard of other persons experiences of German motorway driving and recently I looked up German motorways on line, so for the following reasons, I think it is unfair;

It seems to me that some of the German motorways are two lane but a lot are three or more lanes in each direction, with the exception of maybe 30/40Km of the M50 which has a 100Kph limit anyway, I think all of our motorways are two lane, (one lane for driving and an overtaking lane.)

It seems to me that there is a far higher police presence on German motorways than we have here, and the rules of the road on German Motorways appear to be enforced.

It seems to me that German drivers understand and generally adhere to motorway rules of the road. In Ireland many appear to be clueless regarding motorway rules re-entering / exiting, lane discipline, overtaking, braking distances for motorway speeds, and see a speed limit as a target that must be at least achieved, regardless of weather conditions traffic volumes etc.

The thought of raising speed limits here, in my opinion is frightening, and I think would increase motorway injuries and fatalities substantially.


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## T McGibney (7 Jun 2016)

twofor1 said:


> I do not think it is fair to make comparisons between German and Irish motorways....
> 
> I have never been on a German motorway







twofor1 said:


> with the exception of maybe 30/40Km of the M50 which has a 100Kph limit anyway, I think *all of our motorways are two lane*, (one lane for driving and an overtaking lane.)



They're not.



twofor1 said:


> It seems to me that there is a far higher police presence on German motorways than we have here, and the rules of the road on German Motorways appear to be enforced.... It seems to me that German drivers understand and generally adhere to motorway rules of the road.
> 
> ...
> 
> I have never been on a German motorway



No comment necessary.


> The thought of raising speed limits here, in my opinion is frightening, and I think would increase motorway injuries and fatalities substantially.



There we disagree.  Which we're respectively entitled to do.


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## twofor1 (7 Jun 2016)

I have never been to Mars either, but could tell you lots about it, .


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## MrEarl (8 Jun 2016)

twofor1 said:


> .....The thought of raising speed limits here, in my opinion is frightening, and I think would increase motorway injuries and fatalities substantially.



At this stage, I have to be honest and say that the thoughts of you being on a motorway at the same time as me, are frightening 

I am reading your posts and find myself wondering how you can possibly form such rigid views on things that by your own admission, you know nothing about or have never experienced (i.e. German motorway lanes, German police enforcing laws etc).


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## trasneoir (8 Jun 2016)

twofor1 said:


> I accept it might be safe to drive faster in Germany, but do not think it is fair to make comparisons between German and Irish motorways.


My 2c based on a few visits: they are not that dissimilar.
Near the cities, three lanes. Traffic is usually 60-120% of the road's capacity, same as the M50
Between cities, two lanes, mostly with worse/older surfaces than ours. Traffic is 30-60% of capacity, rather than our 10-30% outside the pale.

The general standard of German driving isn't dramatically better, except in the bottom 10%. There's plenty of driver error, they bunch up closer than I'd consider sensible, but there seems to be fewer profoundly incompetent drivers. They use horns and lights more than we do, both defensively and to scold bad behavior.

Germans' lane discipline is a little better. When roads are below capacity traffic stays to the right, and the (fairly regular) experience of a 911 or supersaloon whizzing past at 180kph+ encourages people to check their mirrors twice before changing lanes to overtake.


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## Purple (8 Jun 2016)

trasneoir said:


> My 2c based on a few visits: they are not that dissimilar.
> Near the cities, three lanes. Traffic is usually 60-120% of the road's capacity, same as the M50
> Between cities, two lanes, mostly with worse/older surfaces than ours. Traffic is 30-60% of capacity, rather than our 10-30% outside the pale.
> 
> ...


I have been to Germany and driven on German roads and I agree with the above.


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## twofor1 (8 Jun 2016)

trasneoir said:


> The general standard of German driving isn't dramatically better.......
> 
> Germans' lane discipline is a little better........



One of the reasons it is better, and I accept not dramatically better in your and Purple's experience is because motorway lessons are compulsory for learners in Germany, and should be compulsory here.

_‘’ A certain number of practical and technical lessons has to be completed again depending on the type of vehicle. Obligatory lessons include a minimum number of lessons each driving on: the motorway Autobahn; rural areas, and in the dark.’’_

http://www.techinsider.io/germanys-autobahn-vs-us-highways-compared-2016-3

In Ireland learners are not allowed on motorways, pass their test and off they go up the M1 or whatever having never had any experience of entering / exiting / overtaking etc or any experience of driving or braking distances for motorway speeds.


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## Leo (9 Jun 2016)

twofor1 said:


> In Ireland learners are not allowed on motorways, pass their test and off they go up the M1 or whatever having never had any experience of entering / exiting / overtaking etc or any experience of driving or braking distances for motorway speeds.



You can't test for every scenario, pulling out of a side road or regular overtaking on a single or dual carriageway use the same skill set. Just because they are permitted to drive on motorways once qualified doesn't mean they should do so if they are not confident enough in their abilities. Just like you can legally drive at 100kph on some pretty brutal roads doesn't mean that you should. There's an underlying theme in much of the Road Traffic Acts that state that while it is permissible to do certain things, you should only do so if you do not put yourself or others in danger. 

No one is ever taught to enter a road like the Naas road and immediately pull into the second lane and cruise there to save themselves some minor inconvenience of having to be aware of other traffic entering at subsequent junctions. A lot of people who I see doing this aren't new drivers.


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## twofor1 (10 Jun 2016)

Leo said:


> No one is ever taught to enter a road like the Naas road and immediately pull into the second lane and cruise there to save themselves some minor inconvenience of having to be aware of other traffic entering at subsequent junctions. A lot of people who I see doing this aren't new drivers.



I agree, have a look at #40 on page 2 of this tread.

Not only do we need to train our learners on motorways, we also need to enforce the rules, as many of the supposedly experienced drivers, either through ignorance or arrogance appear to be clueless regarding motorway rules.


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## Gordanus (12 Jun 2016)

If I am driving in the nearside lane of a 3 lane motorway and realise that I am about to 'undertake' a middle-lane hogger, I thought that what I am supposed to do is go into the second overtaking lane in order to overtake them. Which I do, but I'll generally get their attention while behind them by flashing lights at them.  

It's frightening to have the current situation with so many middle-lane hoggers who don't seem to realise that they are in an overtaking lane.  

I would have thought that this is well covered in the Rules of the Road.


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## Gordon Gekko (12 Jun 2016)

What is also pretty annoying is when you're in the overtaking lane and passing a number of other vehicles, and someone comes up behind you travelling faster and flashing their lights. They really don't like you completing your manoeuvre safely.


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## twofor1 (12 Jun 2016)

Going back to an earlier discussion re; should our motorway speed limits be increased, I have been giving it some more thought.

9 European countries have a higher maximum motorway speed limit than we have, 12  have the same 120Kph that we have, and 6 have a lower limit.

http://www.theaa.ie/aa/motoring-advice/driving-in-europe/speed-limits.aspx

What would we gain, given our relatively short motorway network, if we increased our motorway speed limit to the 130Kph that some have ?

100 Km at 120Kph takes 50 minutes.

100 Km at 130Kph takes 46 minutes.

A saving of 4 minutes for each 100 Km travelled on a motorway.

Dublin to the outskirts of Cork city for example is motorway from Naas, assuming you could maintain 130Kph for the entire 220 Km’s of motorway, you would save less than 9 minutes, is it really worth it ?

My opinion is no, it is not worth the additional risk, (even if minimal), that comes with higher speeds.


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## losttheplot (12 Jun 2016)

To be honest, I think the debate on speed limits is a little pointless, they are so poorly enforced that little notice is taken of them. You could extend this to all our road rules - parking, overtaking, roundabouts etc. When they are enforced there's public outcry that it's unfair ( I was only a little bit over the speed limit, I only parked there for a minute etc)


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