# We have all been massively wronged and should protest



## onq (15 Apr 2010)

*We have all been massively wronged and should protest* 

 You know, I remember a case back in the  1980's or 1990's of a woman caught shoplifting a pair of shoes who was  sent to prison for 4 years - she was a mother of four children IIRC.

Here we are in a society where an entire sector has been shut down,  livelihoods destroyed, people mired in unpayable person debt - through  the actions and inactions of the government, the financial regulator and  the banks.

Not one person has been charged with any offense, although it is  manifestly clear that a major and grievous wrong has been committed and  that some people have profited hugely out of it.

Very few main players have been fired, although some have walked and  some have fled because of it.

Massive provision is in the accounts of Anglo for the thefts of millions  of Euros by these people.

And yet, here in good old repressed Ireland, not one person is marching  in protest.

The Big Boys in Europe class us with the O'Med group otherwise known as  the Piigs.

Portugal, Italy, Ireland, Greece and Spain.

Lovely, just bleedin' lovely.


The Greeks are laughing at us, having run up debts of €300 Billion they   are getting bailed out - we are going to have to pay 800 million a year   to help them - US!

  This is a country that used the good offices if Goldman Sachs to hide a  growing debt using the same financial instruments that got us all into  this mess.

 They got a sweet deal at low interest rates because they TOOK TO THE  STREETS and have a prime minister who faced down Germany.


 We're all just too _Middle Class_, to march although for how much   longer remains to be seen.


We're all just too _Middle Class_, to march although for how much  longer remains to be seen.

Many families I know are one major bill away from not being able to put  food on the table.

And of course I know so many once-triving businesses - apart from  architects - that are going under.

And of course, don't mention the suicides, because we wouldn't want to upset anyone now would we?

I think we need to protest about this - anyone up for a march or even a  protest?

How does 1:00 pm next Saturday outside Government Buildings sound?

ONQ.


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## callybags (15 Apr 2010)

> through the actions and inactions of the government, the financial regulator and the banks


 
and the people who borrowed the money.



> Massive provision is in the accounts of Anglo for the thefts of millions of Euros by these people.


 
Theft?  That's a strong accusation when no court case has yet been heard.



> think we need to protest about this - anyone up for a march or even a protest?


 
I don't see what good could come of a protest.


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## VOR (15 Apr 2010)

I admire your stance and understand where you are coming from. I want people jailed and thrown out of their homes. That might sound harsh but I want to see sheriffs kicking in front doors and tossing people out. People should see a consequence to their actions and if that means their son can't go to Gonzaga I am fine with that. He can live with the parents in a 3 bed semi in Ballygobackwards that his father built. You can guess who I would have in my top 5. But I think "wronged" is the wrong word. I just want to see justice served by our courts and our leaders. 

I would however ask you to consider a different stance. Firstly,  government buildings will be closed on Saturday so I don't see the  point. They never listen anyway and you'll only get a couple of thousand there at best. 

How about starting with something that only takes 2 minutes. Why not post a list of email addresses for the TDs and senators. Then have a standard template outlining what "we the people" demand. And that is that those who acted illegally are brought before a court and jailed where necessary. Also that those who refuse to pay back the billions are thrown from their houses and jailed. I'll send it to the TDs in my area and to every minister. Thats' about 19 emails. If you get 10,000 people to do that it is a good start.


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## onq (15 Apr 2010)

Oh no, let's not accuse anyone of anything.

Let's forget that government should be accountable.
Let's not voice our utter disgust at the mess we're in today.
Let's not spotlight our former banking whores  recently taking holy orders.

Really?

I don't think so.

The same people who "advised" Joe Public he was under borrowed aren't lending.
In many cases they are actively driving people into bankruptcy by pursuing payments.
What happens when that occurs - familes broken up, homes repossesed, children alienated?
Will you think its okay to protest then perhaps, when its wayyy too late to influence events for the better?

Think again.

Think long and hard before whitewashing the wrongs that have been done to us.

ONQ.


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## onq (15 Apr 2010)

VOR said:


> I admire your stance and understand where you are coming from. I want people jailed and thrown out of their homes. That might sound harsh but I want to see sheriffs kicking in front doors and tossing people out. People should see a consequence to their actions and if that means their son can't go to Gonzaga I am fine with that. He can live with the parents in a 3 bed semi in Ballygobackwards that his father built. You can guess who I would have in my top 5. But I think "wronged" is the wrong word. I just want to see justice served by our courts and our leaders.
> 
> I would however ask you to consider a different stance. Firstly,  government buildings will be closed on Saturday so I don't see the  point. They never listen anyway and you'll only get a couple of thousand there at best.
> 
> How about starting with something that only takes 2 minutes. Why not post a list of email addresses for the TDs and senators. Then have a standard template outlining what "we the people" demand. And that is that those who acted illegally are brought before a court and jailed where necessary. Also that those who refuse to pay back the billions are thrown from their houses and jailed. I'll send it to the TDs in my area and to every minister. Thats' about 19 emails. If you get 10,000 people to do that it is a good start.




VOR,

I'm with you - I don't only give good advice, I know when to recognise it and take it.

However I have already posted the list 

Its in the thread entitled *Re: Draconian Measures in the Banks - 90 day foreclosure limit?*

[broken link removed]

I'll post the whole page I think.

ONQ.
http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?p=1024974


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## Sunny (15 Apr 2010)

But what is protesting going to do? The Greeks don't protest, they riot and look at them. They are going be begging for money from the EU including us within the next two weeks. You make it sound like it is a good thing that they are getting bailed out. Its not!

It doesn't achieve anything apart from making you feel better for a hour or two.


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## onq (15 Apr 2010)

*We have all been massively wronged and should protest *

*List of Dáil Deputies in alphabetical order but see below for a cut  and paste list of e-mail addresses, both from *[broken link removed]

I have reproduced and relevant information below in this post.

There is the first list which related names to e-mails - ignore this.

Go to the second list at the bottom of that page of this post and highlight all of them.

Copy and paste that entire list of e-mail addresses into the first header line of your e-mail client and hit the "return" key.

A few seconds may elapse after which all 164 TD's noted below should appear on separate lines.

Write your message and hit "send", although perhaps VOR or someone else may suggest an appropriate text in this thread - what you send is your choice.

You may have to override a security protocal that prevents you sending more than 50 e-mails at once - just do that, it should default to the normal security protocol the next time.

It may be that we will achieve nothing, or that we will be misunderstood, or villified or perhaps even ridiculed by our peers.

But I believe that government should be held accountable and that we should voice our serious concerns about our country, our livelihoods and our childrens future.

Demanding show trials or turfing executive and non-executive directors, chairmen, and former regulators - never mind current and former taoiseagh onto the streets may be a pipe dream.

But we should let this government know the depth of feeling out there against the situation we find ourselves in and our current inability to pay back our debts through lack of gainful employment.

FWIW

ONQ.


From: [broken link removed]


1. Mr. Bertie Ahern bertie.ahern@oireachtas.ie 
2. Mr. Dermot Ahern dermot.ahern@oireachtas.ie 
3.  Mr. Michael Ahern michael.ahern@oireachtas.ie 
4. Mr. Noel Ahern noel.ahern@oireachtas.ie 
5. Mr. Bernard Allen bernard.allen@oireachtas.ie
6.  Mr. Chris Andrews chris.andrews@oireachtas.ie 
7. Mr. Barry Andrews barry.andrews@oireachtas.ie
8.  Mr. Seán Ardagh sean.ardagh@oireachtas.ie 
9. Mr. Bobby Aylward bobby.aylward@oireachtas.ie
10.  Mr. James Bannon james.bannon@oireachtas.ie
11.  Mr. Sean Barrett sean.barrett@oireachtas.ie 
12. Mr. Joe Behan joe.behan@oireachtas.ie
13.  Mr. Niall Blaney niall.blaney@oireachtas.ie
14.  Ms. Aíne Brady aine.brady@oireachtas.ie
15.  Mr. Cyprian Brady cyprian.brady@oireachtas.ie
16.  Mr. Johnny Brady johnny.brady@oireachtas.ie
17.  Mr. Pat Breen pat.breen@oireachtas.ie
18.  Mr. Tommy Broughan thomas.p.broughan@oireachtas.ie
19.  Mr. John Browne john.browne@oireachtas.ie
20.  Mr. Richard Bruton richard.bruton@oireachtas.ie
21.  Mr. Ulick Burke ulick.burke@oireachtas.ie
22.  Ms. Joan Burton joan.burton@oireachtas.ie
23.  Ms. Catherine Byrne catherine.byrne@oireachtas.ie
24.  Mr. Thomas Byrne thomas.byrne@oireachtas.ie
25.  Mr. Dara Calleary dara.calleary@oireachtas.ie
26.  Mr. Pat Carey pat.carey@oireachtas.ie 
27. Mr. Joe Carey joe.carey@oireachtas.ie
28.  Ms. Deirdre Clune deirdre.clune@oireachtas.ie
29.  Mr. Niall Collins niall.collins@oireachtas.ie
30.  Ms. Margaret Conlon margaret.conlon@oireachtas.ie
31.  Mr. Paul Connaughton paul.connaughton@oireachtas.ie
32.  Mr. Sean Connick sean.connick@oireachtas.ie
33.  Mr. Noel J Coonan noel.coonan@oireachtas.ie
34.  Mr. Joe Costello joe.costello@oireachtas.ie
35.  Ms. Mary Coughlan mary.coughlan@oireachtas.ie
36.  Mr. Simon Coveney simon.coveney@oireachtas.ie
37.  Mr. Brian Cowen taoiseach@taoiseach.gov.ie
38.  Mr. Seymour Crawford seymour.crawford@oireachtas.ie
39.  Mr. Michael Creed michael.creed@oireachtas.ie
40.  Mr. John Cregan john.cregan@oireachtas.ie
41.  Ms. Lucinda Creighton lucinda.creighton@oireachtas.ie
42.  Mr. Ciaran Cuffe ciaran.cuffe@oireachtas.ie
43.  Mr. Martin Cullen martin.cullen@oireachtas.ie
44.  Mr. John Curran john.curran@oireachtas.ie
45.  Mr. Michael W. D'Arcy michael.darcy@oireachtas.ie 
46. Mr. John Deasy john.deasy@oireachtas.ie
47.  Mr. Jimmy Deenihan jimmy.deenihan@oireachtas.ie 
48. Mr. Noel Dempsey noel.dempsey@oireachtas.ie
49.  Mr. Jimmy Devins jimmy.devins@oireachtas.ie
50.  Mr. Timmy Dooley timmy.dooley@oireachtas.ie
51.  Mr. Andrew Doyle andrew.doyle@oireachtas.ie
52.  Mr. Bernard Durkan bernard.durkan@oireachtas.ie
53.  Mr. Damien English damien.english@oireachtas.ie
54.  Ms. Olwyn Enright olwyn.enright@oireachtas.ie
55.  Mr. Frank Fahey frank.fahey@oireachtas.ie
56.  Mr. Frank Feighan frank.feighan@oireachtas.ie
57.  Mr. Martin Ferris martin.ferris@oireachtas.ie
58.  Mr. Michael Finneran michael.finneran@oireachtas.ie
59.  Mr. Michael Fitzpatrick michael.fitzpatrick@oireachtas.ie
60.  Mr. Charles Flanagan charles.flanagan@oireachtas.ie
61.  Mr. Terence Flanagan terence.flanagan@oireachtas.ie
62.  Mr. Sean Fleming sean.fleming@oireachtas.ie
63.  Ms. Beverley Flynn beverley.flynn@oireachtas.ie
64.  Mr. Eamon Gilmore eamon.gilmore@oireachtas.ie
65.  Mr. Paul Nicholas Gogarty paul.gogarty@oireachtas.ie
66.  Mr. John Gormley john.gormley@oireachtas.ie 
67. Mr. Noel Grealish noel.grealish@oireachtas.ie
68.  Ms. Mary Hanafin mary.hanafin@oireachtas.ie 
69. Ms. Mary Harney mary.harney@oireachtas.ie
70.  Mr. Sean Haughey sean.haughey@oireachtas.ie
71.  Mr. Brian Hayes brian.hayes@oireachtas.ie
72.  Mr. Tom Hayes tom.hayes@oireachtas.ie
73.  Mr. Jackie Healy-Rae Jackie.Healy.Rae@oireachtas.ie
74.  Mr. Michael D. Higgins michael.higgins@oireachtas.ie
75.  Ms. Máire Hoctor maire.hoctor@oireachtas.ie
76.  Mr. Phil Hogan philip.hogan@oireachtas.ie
77.  Mr. Brendan Howlin brendan.howlin@oireachtas.ie
78.  Mr. Paul Kehoe paul.kehoe@oireachtas.ie
79.  Mr. Billy Kelleher billy.kelleher@oireachtas.ie
80.  Mr. Peter Kelly peter.kelly@oireachtas.ie
81.  Mr. Brendan Kenneally brendan.kenneally@oireachtas.ie
82.  Mr. Michael Kennedy michael.kennedy@oireachtas.ie
83.  Mr. Enda Kenny enda.kenny@oireachtas.ie
84.  Mr. Tony Killeen tony.killeen@oireachtas.ie
85.  Mr. Séamus Kirk seamus.kirk@oireachtas.ie
86.  Mr. Michael P. Kitt michael.kitt@oireachtas.ie
87.  Mr. Tom Kitt tom.kitt@oireachtas.ie
88.  Mr. Brian Joseph Lenihan [broken link removed]89.  Mr. Conor Lenihan conor.lenihan@oireachtas.ie
90.  Mr. Michael Lowry michael.lowry@oireachtas.ie
91.  Ms. Kathleen Lynch kathleen.lynch@oireachtas.ie
92.  Mr. Ciarán Lynch ciaran.lynch@oireachtas.ie
93.  Dr. Martin Mansergh martin.mansergh@oireachtas.ie
94.  Mr. Micheál Martin micheal.martin@oireachtas.ie
95.  Mr. Pádraic McCormack padraic.mccormack@oireachtas.ie
96.  Dr. James McDaid jim.mcdaid@oireachtas.ie
97.  Mr. Thomas McEllistrim tom.mcellistrim@oireachtas.ie
98.  Mr. Shane McEntee shane.mcentee@oireachtas.ie
99.  Mr. Dinny McGinley dinny.mcginley@oireachtas.ie
100.  Mr. Mattie McGrath mattie.mcgrath@oireachtas.ie
101.  Mr. Michael McGrath michael.mcgrath@oireachtas.ie
102.  Mr. Finian McGrath finian.mcgrath@oireachtas.ie
103.  Mr. John McGuinness john.mcguinness@oireachtas.ie
104.  Mr. Joe McHugh joe.mchugh@oireachtas.ie
105.  Ms. Liz McManus liz.mcmanus@oireachtas.ie
106.  Ms. Olivia Mitchell olivia.mitchell@oireachtas.ie
107.  Mr. John Anthony Moloney john.moloney@oireachtas.ie
108.  Mr. Arthur Morgan arthur.morgan@oireachtas.ie
109.  Mr. Michael Moynihan michael.moynihan@oireachtas.ie
110.  Mr. Michael Mulcahy michael.mulcahy@oireachtas.ie
111.  Mr. Denis Naughten denis.naughten@oireachtas.ie
112.  Mr. Dan Neville daniel.neville@oireachtas.ie
113.  Mr. M. J. Nolan mj.nolan@oireachtas.ie
114.  Mr. Michael Noonan michael.noonan@oireachtas.ie
115.  Mr. Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin caoimhghin.ocaolain@oireachtas.ie
116.  Mr. Éamon Ó Cuív eamon.ocuiv@oireachtas.ie
117.  Mr. Seán Ó Fearghaíl sean.ofearghail@oireachtas.ie
118.  Mr. Aengus Ó Snodaigh aengus.osnodaigh@oireachtas.ie
119.  Mr. Darragh O'Brien darragh.obrien@oireachtas.ie
120.  Mr. Charlie O'Connor charlie.oconnor@oireachtas.ie
121.  Mr. Willie O'Dea willie.odea@oireachtas.ie
122.  Mr. Kieran O'Donnell kieran.odonnell@oireachtas.ie
123.  Mr. John O'Donoghue john.odonoghue@oireachtas.ie
124.  Mr. Fergus O'Dowd fergus.odowd@oireachtas.ie
125.  Mr. Noel O'Flynn noel.oflynn@oireachtas.ie
126.  Dr. Rory O'Hanlon rory.ohanlon@oireachtas.ie
127.  Mr. Batt O'Keeffe batt.okeeffe@oireachtas.ie
128.  Mr. Jim O'Keeffe jim.okeeffe@oireachtas.ie
129.  Mr. Edward O'Keeffe ned.okeeffe@oireachtas.ie
130.  Mr. John O'Mahony john.omahony@oireachtas.ie
131.  Ms. Mary O'Rourke mary.orourke@Oireachtas.ie
132.  Mr. Brian O'Shea brian.oshea@oireachtas.ie
133.  Mr. Christy O'Sullivan christy.osullivan@oireachtas.ie
134.  Ms. Jan O'Sullivan jan.osullivan@oireachtas.ie
135.  Ms. Maureen O’Sullivan maureen.osullivan@oireachtas.ie
136.  Mr. Willie Penrose willie.penrose@oireachtas.ie
137.  Mr. John Perry john.perry@oireachtas.ie
138.  Mr. Seán Power sean.power@oireachtas.ie
139.  Mr. Peter Power peter.power@oireachtas.ie
140.  Mr. Ruairí Quinn ruairi.quinn@oireachtas.ie
141.  Mr. Pat Rabbitte pat.rabbitte@oireachtas.ie
142.  Dr. James Reilly james.reilly@oireachtas.ie
143.  Mr. Michael Ring michael.ring@oireachtas.ie
144.  Mr. Dick Roche dick.roche@oireachtas.ie
145.  Mr. Eamon Ryan eamon.ryan@oireachtas.ie
146.  Mr. Trevor Sargent trevor.sargent@oireachtas.ie
147.  Mr. Eamon Scanlon eamon.scanlon@oireachtas.ie
148.  Mr. Alan Shatter alan.shatter@oireachtas.ie
149.  Mr. Tom Sheahan tom.sheahan@oireachtas.ie
150.  Mr. P. J. Sheehan pj.sheehan@oireachtas.ie
151.  Mr. Sean Sherlock sean.sherlock@oireachtas.ie
152.  Ms. Róisín Shortall roisin.shortall@oireachtas.ie
153.  Mr. Brendan Smith brendan.smith@oireachtas.ie
154.  Mr. Emmet Stagg emmet.stagg@oireachtas.ie
155.  Mr. David Stanton david.stanton@oireachtas.ie
156.  Mr. Billy Godfrey Timmins billy.timmins@oireachtas.ie
157.  Mr. Noel Treacy noel.treacy@oireachtas.ie
158.  Ms. Joanna Tuffy joanna.tuffy@oireachtas.ie
159.  Dr. Mary Upton mary.upton@oireachtas.ie
160.  Mr. Leo Varadkar leo.varadkar@oireachtas.ie
161.  Mr. Jack Wall jack.wall@oireachtas.ie
162.  Ms. Mary Wallace mary.wallace@oireachtas.ie
163.  Ms. Mary Alexandra White marya.white@oireachtas.ie
164.  Dr. Michael J. Woods michael.woods@oireachtas.ie​ List of Email addresses for  TD’s of the 30th Dáil as a group:​ taoiseach@taoiseach.gov.ie,  bertie.ahern@oireachtas.ie, michael.ahern@oireachtas.ie,  noel.ahern@oireachtas.ie, bernard.allen@oireachtas.ie,  chris.andrews@oireachtas.ie, barry.andrews@oireachtas.ie,  sean.ardagh@oireachtas.ie, bobby.aylward@oireachtas.ie,  james.bannon@oireachtas.ie, sean.barrett@oireachtas.ie,  joe.behan@oireachtas.ie, john.browne@oireachtas.ie,  aine.brady@oireachtas.ie, cyprian.brady@oireachtas.ie,  johnny.brady@oireachtas.ie, pat.breen@oireachtas.ie,  thomas.p.broughan@oireachtas.ie, niall.blaney@oireachtas.ie,  richard.bruton@oireachtas.ie, ulick.burke@oireachtas.ie,  joan.burton@oireachtas.ie, catherine.byrne@oireachtas.ie,  thomas.byrne@oireachtas.ie, niall.collins@oireachtas.ie,  pat.carey@oireachtas.ie, joe.carey@oireachtas.ie,  deirdre.clune@oireachtas.ie, dara.calleary@oireachtas.ie,  margaret.conlon@oireachtas.ie, paul.connaughton@oireachtas.ie,  sean.connick@oireachtas.ie, mary.coughlan@oireachtas.ie,  michael.creed@oireachtas.ie, joe.costello@oireachtas.ie,  simon.coveney@oireachtas.ie, brian.lenihan@oireachtas.ie,  seymour.crawford@oireachtas.ie, noel.coonan@oireachtas.ie,  john.cregan@oireachtas.ie, lucinda.creighton@oireachtas.ie,  jimmy.devins@oireachtas.ie, mary.hanafin@oireachtas.ie,  john.curran@oireachtas.ie, michael.darcy@oireachtas.ie,  john.deasy@oireachtas.ie, jimmy.deenihan@oireachtas.ie,  ciaran.cuffe@oireachtas.ie, noel.dempsey@oireachtas.ie,  timmy.dooley@oireachtas.ie, andrew.doyle@oireachtas.ie,  bernard.durkan@oireachtas.ie, damien.english@oireachtas.ie,  michael.fitzpatrick@oireachtas.ie, frank.fahey@oireachtas.ie,  frank.feighan@oireachtas.ie, martin.ferris@oireachtas.ie,  michael.finneran@oireachtas.ie, olwyn.enright@oireachtas.ie,  charles.flanagan@oireachtas.ie, terence.flanagan@oireachtas.ie,  sean.fleming@oireachtas.ie, beverley.flynn@oireachtas.ie,  paul.gogarty@oireachtas.ie, john.gormley@oireachtas.ie,  martin.cullen@oireachtas.ie, micheal.martin@oireachtas.ie,  noel.grealish@oireachtas.ie, eamon.gilmore@oireachtas.ie,  mary.harney@oireachtas.ie, brendan.howlin@oireachtas.ie,  brian.hayes@oireachtas.ie, tom.hayes@oireachtas.ie,  Jackie.Healy.Rae@oireachtas.ie, michael.higgins@oireachtas.ie,  maire.hoctor@oireachtas.ie, philip.hogan@oireachtas.ie,  sean.haughey@oireachtas.ie, paul.kehoe@oireachtas.ie,  billy.kelleher@oireachtas.ie, peter.kelly@oireachtas.ie,  brendan.kenneally@oireachtas.ie, michael.kennedy@oireachtas.ie,  enda.kenny@oireachtas.ie, eamon.ryan@oireachtas.ie,  tom.kitt@oireachtas.ie, michael.kitt@oireachtas.ie,  conor.lenihan@oireachtas.ie, michael.lowry@oireachtas.ie,  kathleen.lynch@oireachtas.ie, tom.mcellistrim@oireachtas.ie,  martin.mansergh@oireachtas.ie, minister@dfa.ie,  padraic.mccormack@oireachtas.ie, jim.mcdaid@oireachtas.ie,  ciaran.lynch@oireachtas.ie, shane.mcentee@oireachtas.ie,  dinny.mcginley@oireachtas.ie, mattie.mcgrath@oireachtas.ie,  michael.mcgrath@oireachtas.ie, finian.mcgrath@oireachtas.ie,  brendan.smith@oireachtas.ie, john.moloney@oireachtas.ie,  joe.mchugh@oireachtas.ie, liz.mcmanus@oireachtas.ie,  olivia.mitchell@oireachtas.ie, john.mcguinness@oireachtas.ie,  arthur.morgan@oireachtas.ie, michael.moynihan@oireachtas.ie,  michael.mulcahy@oireachtas.ie, denis.naughten@oireachtas.ie,  sean.ofearghail@oireachtas.ie, mj.nolan@oireachtas.ie,  michael.noonan@oireachtas.ie, caoimhghin.ocaolain@oireachtas.ie,  eamon.ocuiv@oireachtas.ie, batt.okeeffe@oireachtas.ie,  daniel.neville@oireachtas.ie, aengus.osnodaigh@oireachtas.ie,  darragh.obrien@oireachtas.ie, charlie.oconnor@oireachtas.ie,  kieran.odonnell@oireachtas.ie, john.odonoghue@oireachtas.ie,  fergus.odowd@oireachtas.ie, noel.oflynn@oireachtas.ie,  rory.ohanlon@oireachtas.ie, willie.odea@oireachtas.ie,  jim.okeeffe@oireachtas.ie, ned.okeeffe@oireachtas.ie,  john.omahony@oireachtas.ie, maureen.osullivan@oireachtas.ie,  sean.power@oireachtas.ie, brian.oshea@oireachtas.ie,  christy.osullivan@oireachtas.ie, jan.osullivan@oireachtas.ie,  willie.penrose@oireachtas.ie, john.perry@oireachtas.ie,  mary.orourke@Oireachtas.ie, peter.power@oireachtas.ie,  ruairi.quinn@oireachtas.ie, pat.rabbitte@oireachtas.ie,  james.reilly@oireachtas.ie, alan.shatter@oireachtas.ie,  dick.roche@oireachtas.ie, eamon.ryan@oireachtas.ie,  trevor.sargent@oireachtas.ie, eamon.scanlon@oireachtas.ie,  michael.ring@oireachtas.ie, pj.sheehan@oireachtas.ie,  sean.sherlock@oireachtas.ie, tom.sheahan@oireachtas.ie,  roisin.shortall@oireachtas.ie, emmet.stagg@oireachtas.ie,  david.stanton@oireachtas.ie, billy.timmins@oireachtas.ie,  joanna.tuffy@oireachtas.ie, noel.treacy@oireachtas.ie,  mary.upton@oireachtas.ie, michael.woods@oireachtas.ie,  jack.wall@oireachtas.ie, mary.wallace@oireachtas.ie,  marya.white@oireachtas.ie, leo.varadkar@oireachtas.ie,​


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## elefantfresh (15 Apr 2010)

Whilst I agree with a lot said above, I do have to point out that in my opinion a lot of people took on debt that they should not have. 
For example, I didnt max my mortage. I drive a 10 year old car when many of the (2) cars in the driveways were brand new. I don't have a 48" plasma - i'm still stuck in cathod ray tube land!People lived on credit for too long.
Yes, there has been disastrous behaviour from our "betters" but at the same time, people have to take a certain amount of personal blame for debt also.


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## truthseeker (15 Apr 2010)

elephantfresh - I agree with your post, but I have said on here before - many people thought that because the banks were willing to give them money, that that was a nod that it was OK for them to borrow at that level. The general public wouldnt be financial experts, they would assume the people in the bank are.

Sure, personal responsibility is so important, and I, like you, drive a 10 year old car, have a small mortgage, a small tv, and have never lived on credit. But I have friends and family who made bad financial decisions, not because they were being greedy, but because the bank told them it was ok to borrow this amount - and they felt that if the bank says its ok, it must be ok.

The banks were actually phoning people and offering them loans over the phone - people were getting letters saying 'you have been pre approved for a loan of $$$ or a credit card with limit of $$$' etc - not everyone is savvy enough to make the right decisions when they are being encouraged like mad by their bank to take risks.


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## Firefly (15 Apr 2010)

The banks are going to do whatever they can to make the most money they can. The issue IMO is the lack in independance from political influence regarding the Financial Regulator and also the lack of investigation & enforcement by the Financial Regulator.

If the FR was truely independent of the government, then all the tax-breaks for builders wouldn't have meant diddly squat if the builder couldn't put up the necessary funds. Limiting the banks to only provide mortgages based on the old system (2.5 + 1.5) of salary would have kept house prices in check. Prohibiting 100% mortgages and cold-calling customers advising of loans would have avoided unecessary consumer debt. 

IMO the FR was influenced by government policy of the day rather then putting the banking customer's interest at the forefront - as what is being advocated by the new FR re Quinn Insurance. Therefore the group ultimatly responsibility IMO lies with Bertie Ahern, with Brian Cowen and Charlie mcCreevy just beneath as Taoiseach and ministers for Finance.


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## haminka1 (15 Apr 2010)

OMG and what do you plan to do?
a mass whinging session? and when the elections come, everyone's going to vote FF anyway


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## Mpsox (15 Apr 2010)

Firstly, and in fairness, there have been other protests on this already, Joe Higgins outside Anglo springs to mind

Secondly, what will the protest actually achieve?. Standing outside the Dail when there is no one in it is a bit Father Tedish, "down with that sort of thing" . What is the goal of your protest?

I'm not in disagreement with the main thrust of your arguement, although I do believe in many cases, people got into difficulty through their own stupidy and greed, regardless of what the banks did and if the current crisis hadn't happened, they would have got into difficulty in the future when interest rates inevitably rose. I have sympathy for a lot of people in difficulties, but not all of them.

Interestingly I'm researching my family history at the minute and one saga is in 1904 where local farmers physically fought the police to prevent landord evictions on a farm. They had a goal, (no evictions by a British Landlord) and eventually they won, albeit at the price of some of my ancestors doing time in prison. I'm not condoning or recomending violence, what I am saying is don't protest for the sake of it or because it makes you feel better, demand something instead. For example, a protest demanding that no bank evictions/seizing of property for 3/4 years for mortgage holders in arrears where the mortgage holder has lost his/her job would be far more benificial.


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## csirl (15 Apr 2010)

The best protest is to vote out ALL the Government TDs at the next election. Just think of the message it would send if not even one retained his/her seat. If you must vote for a particular party (and I cant understand why you would in the current climate), then vote for one of the candidates who isnt a sitting TD.


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## z107 (15 Apr 2010)

There have been protests. There are at least three that I know of for Nama.
Unfortunately, they've haven't had such a great uptake or have been hijacked by other interests (such as political parties).

There's another protest on 24 April about calling for a general election
http://www.thepropertypin.com/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=29545

All we need is more people to get that critical mass.


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## cork (15 Apr 2010)

We are a country of protest - we would win a gold medal in the blame world games.

What potests have there been aganist Alan Greenspan?

The Irish are so inward looking. People were aware of the loans given by banks and house prices.

The Irish were stupidified by house prices for years.


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## DeeFox (15 Apr 2010)

I was listening to Eamonn Keane earlier and he had a guest on (I didn't catch her name) and she was saying that more people had taken to the streets to protest about fox hunting than had about Nama.  Fox hunting is very specific thing and most people have fairly clear views about it - this makes it easier to protest about.  The problems in this country are widespread and I would only be in favour of a protest that had a clear agenda and message rather than a general protest where people are just saying they are not happy with the state of the country.


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## mtk (15 Apr 2010)

you are right all the boards and senior man managment of the banks should have been fired at the very least .

ALL Aib's RISK commitee is still there except sheehy

Makes me laugh and cry


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## NOAH (15 Apr 2010)

I thought George Lee was standing as a protest and look what he did,  got himself a free car parking space for life.

Ireland is a place where the motto is pulling strokes it always was and always will be.  I'll be back here after the next election saying I told you so.

We deserve everything we get for the people we elect and I for one will not help an electorate that dug its own grave.

noah


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## Teatime (15 Apr 2010)

csirl said:


> The best protest is to vote out ALL the Government TDs at the next election. Just think of the message it would send if not even one retained his/her seat. If you must vote for a particular party (and I cant understand why you would in the current climate), then vote for one of the candidates who isnt a sitting TD.


 
Surely the time is ripe for a new political party? Not a PD or Libertas effort but a new party with new people.


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## Mpsox (16 Apr 2010)

Teatime said:


> Surely the time is ripe for a new political party? Not a PD or Libertas effort but a new party with new people.


 
So what are you going to call your party?


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## Latrade (16 Apr 2010)

Mpsox said:


> So what are you going to call your party?


 
P Diddertas.


I'll get me coat.


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## Yorrick (16 Apr 2010)

*We have all been massively wronged and should protest* 

"You know, I remember a case back in the 1980's or 1990's of a woman caught shoplifting a pair of shoes who was sent to prison for 4 years - she was a mother of four children IIRC."



If we are going to have a rational discussion please use facts.
There is no way a woman was sent to prison for four years for stealing a pair of shoes in the 1980s/1900s. 10000 pairs of shoes maybe. but not a pair.

If you can give me evdence of this I will believe it but otherwise it is more exagerating typical of a Joe Duffy caller.


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## DerKaiser (16 Apr 2010)

umop3p!sdn said:


> There have been protests. There are at least three that I know of for Nama.
> Unfortunately, they've haven't had such a great uptake or have been hijacked by other interests (such as political parties).
> 
> There's another protest on 24 April about calling for a general election
> ...


 
What mandate would such a protest have?

Anywhere up to a million people could join it and still not signify that a majority want an election.

We voted in the current crop of TDs and it's up a majority of them to decide whether we should have an election or not before the 5 years term is up


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## DerKaiser (16 Apr 2010)

elefantfresh said:


> Yes, there has been disastrous behaviour from our "betters" but at the same time, people have to take a certain amount of personal blame for debt also.


 
A certain amount of it, but I've come to realise that the ordinary guy on the street had no hand in INBS and Anglo's disasterous loan books.  

The ordinary guy on the street realised enough was enough by the end of 2006 when it came to fueling house price incrases, but Anglo and INBS continued with their cowboy lending practices for almost 2 further years running up much of the €22bn hole in that period.

I'd say over 90% of the mortgage holders who went in over their heads will ultimately honour their debts and a lot of us have to live with that and accept that as our own personal punishment.  It's the additional taxes we will end up paying for the craziness that went on in Anglo and INBS from 2006 to 2008 is what we have every right to be bitter about.


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## csirl (16 Apr 2010)

One problem with street protests is that they tend to be hijacked by professional protesters from small minority left wing groups such as Socialist Workers Parties. It really annoys the hell out of most protesters when the see the news footage or pics in the paper with a load of large SWP banners held up by the probably less than 20 SWP protesters who may attend out of a total of e.g. 10,000 protesters. What's worse is when the SWP people give interviews to the press giving the impression that they organised the protest and the attendees are their supporters instead of the reality being that they hijacked the protest to the disgust of most attendees.


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## VOR (16 Apr 2010)

csirl said:


> One problem with street protests is that they tend to be hijacked by professional protesters from small minority left wing groups such as Socialist Workers Parties.



So true. I saw the same thing happen with a demo outside a headshop. Sinn Fein turned up. In the end there were 4 SF protesters outside the shop and the school association's parents were at the other side of the road.


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## Teatime (16 Apr 2010)

Mpsox said:


> So what are you going to call your party?


 
The skinned rabbits and a mouthful of teabags party.


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## Sunny (16 Apr 2010)

Teatime said:


> The skinned rabbits and a mouthful of teabags party.


 
I used to be in a band with that name...


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## Teatime (16 Apr 2010)

Sunny said:


> I used to be in a band with that name...


 
Welcome to the party.


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## Mpsox (16 Apr 2010)

Teatime said:


> The skinned rabbits and a mouthful of teabags party.


 
I think Pat Rabbitte might have an issue with that. Barrys or Lyons tea bags? It's important that you give the right answer if you want my vote.


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## Teatime (16 Apr 2010)

Mpsox said:


> I think Pat Rabbitte might have an issue with that. Barrys or Lyons tea bags? It's important that you give the right answer if you want my vote.


 
Lyons tea only. If I get elected, I will have Barrys and all it's tea drinkers destroyed. Please subscribe to my newsletter...


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## Firefly (16 Apr 2010)

Teatime said:


> Lyons tea only. If I get elected, I will have Barrys and all it's tea drinkers destroyed. Please subscribe to my newsletter...


 
And I was -> <-  close to joining


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## Complainer (16 Apr 2010)

I absolutely agree that we need to do more, but I don't see much value in organising protests. I find it hard to take this 'we need a new party' stuff seriously either. Unless you have a core group who are prepared to dedicate their every waking hour and lots of moolah to their new cause for a couple of years to get it off the ground, it's not going to happen. And if it does happen, it will end up going down the swannee with the Greens and PDs after a few years.

If you want to change things, pick your battles. Pick the one key issue that you care passionately about, and see what it takes to get a result. Get involved with existing lobby groups or community groups. If you want to focus on one geographical area, get involved in your residents assocation, or a local political party - if you can get one person elected locally, that could be very important when it comes to changing the government.

Less drama, more hard work.


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## Mpsox (19 Apr 2010)

Teatime said:


> Lyons tea only. If I get elected, I will have Barrys and all it's tea drinkers destroyed. Please subscribe to my newsletter...


 
bang goes any votes from the Real Capital of Ireland, including mine, I'll have to take my vote elsewhere I'm afraid


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## Latrade (19 Apr 2010)

Complainer said:


> Less drama, more hard work.


 
This is the nutshell for everything and everyone from TDs down. If we applied a bit more of that principle we might just see it out of this ok.


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## Ancutza (19 Apr 2010)

The real nutshell of all that has gone in Ireland over the last number of years is that we, as a nation, are very un-inclined to protest. The bankers, developers and their mates in government know this.  Why wouldn't they? They are, after all, irish too and understand the national psyche.

What's going to happen is that the tax-payer is going to say nothing, remain disgruntled and forfeit their kids future by staying at home and grumbling on the sofa, to their family, their friends, the dogs in the street, but nothing will happen.  It's all going to be sucked-up by the lot of you.  Your choice, but I for one am very glad that I'll raise my kids abroad where they won't be born to a financial millstone around their neck.

I'm very unhappy and sad that my parents will have to cope in the 'new' ireland in their twilight years where my other 4 siblings will be unable to help them as they might wish because of what has gone on.  They're strapped too.  I'll do my best but it won't be enough.

If you were french you'd be already on the streets setting light to things and the government would have to listen to you.


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## Complainer (19 Apr 2010)

For anyone who does want to do the street protest thing;



> *Make the Banks Pay: Protest for  proper taxing and regulation of the banks*
> 
> 
> Type: [broken link removed]  - [broken link removed]
> ...


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## D8Lady (19 Apr 2010)

I think we're sort of too polite to protest. 
But here's one for you, its even got its own video, released today: 
Saturday April 24, noon, Call for an election.

So if you're in Merrion Square Dublin at noon, do the election protest, have a spot of lunch, then nip around the corner to Anglo Irish Bank in time for the Make the Banks pay protest. 

Hope the protests don't clash - boom boom!


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## NorthDrum (20 Apr 2010)

D8Lady said:


> I think we're sort of too polite to protest.
> But here's one for you, its even got its own video, released today:
> Saturday April 24, noon, Call for an election.
> 
> ...



No no no no no no . .

Now is not the time for a general election . .Definitely not . . Whether anybody likes or hates FF, they have done remarkable work over the last year and I wouldnt trust anybody other then Lenihan to run public finances right now. . Any new person will have to start from scratch and learn the ropes in a time when Ireland is in a vital time of restructuring . .

Also, it would give the unions/public service crys for their own cause , a boost . . FG and Labour would pander to their every whim and we would be left with a complete mess, as a procrastinating government fumbles around trying to find its feet, while blaming the previous government for the mess . .

Oh yes, FF have to pay and should be made to pay for their mistakes of the past, but dont make a huge mistake trying to rectify another . . They are actually the first government who can do whats right for the country without considering public opinion and right now thats exactly what we need (not a weak/lame FG/Labour trying to please everybody). .

No no no no . . An election would do this country NO good right now . . Only thing it would do is satisfy the desires of many to see the back of FF. . This nation needs to grow up . . The nation voted these guys into power. They are finally making headway in this crisis and people still think that getting rid of them now will achieve something? All I can say is GROW UP PEOPLE . . Right now, giving the stage we are at as a nation, getting rid of FF is an emotional desire by most, not based on rational line of thought of whats actually the best course of action for our country nationally and internationally . .


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## Purple (20 Apr 2010)

> -A Financial Transactions Tax


 How would that possible benefit Ireland?



> -Regulate the markets properly


 I agree with that but that doesn’t necessarily mean more regulation or even different regulation. It means competent arms-length regulation where we are not playing musical chairs between the Dept. Of Finance, the Central Bank and the Financial Regulator.



> -Out of the shadows: Bring transparency to the banking system


 Sounds good but what does it mean?



> -Protect workers and jobs from predatory practices


 Sounds good but what does it mean? (It is just phrase for stopping the “race to the bottom”; the Union/Labour Party double-speak for stopping the poorest in the world from having the same chances we have?



> -Protect public finances and shut down tax havens


 We are a tax haven so that will not help us. I’m all in favour of protecting public finances but that involves cutting public spending.



> -Give consumers the protection and information they need


 Sounds good but what does it mean?


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## csirl (20 Apr 2010)

> Whether anybody likes or hates FF, they have done remarkable work over the last year


 I suppose you could put it like that.....it is remarkable what they've done.



> They are actually the first government who can do whats right for the country without considering public opinion


 You must be joking. FF is the ultimate parish pump follow public opinion,  look after own supporters party. 



> No no no no . . An election would do this country NO good right now .


 Wrong wrong wrong. An election is exactly what the nation needs right now. We need to put in place a government who will be there for the next 5 years with a mandate to from the people to fix the problems. A new government would give an enormous boost to the confidence of the nation - people will be a lot more willing to knuckle down and make sacrifices for a government that they support and have confidence in than one that is unpopular and in paralysis. I can see a huge surge of confidence and energy following a general election. And I bet we'll see an increase in foreign investment following a election - investors are currently afraid to touch Ireland as there is so much uncertainty over the government and whether or not it has the support of the people. They will not invest until they get stability.


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## z107 (20 Apr 2010)

> No no no no . . An election would do this country NO good right now . . Only thing it would do is satisfy the desires of many to see the back of FF. .


Sounds pretty good to me!

Really, all the 'politicians' need to be cleared out, and a fresh start made, before they do more damage.
The election process is flawed and needs to be fixed.


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## Purple (20 Apr 2010)

csirl said:


> Wrong wrong wrong. An election is exactly what the nation needs right now. We need to put in place a government who will be there for the next 5 years with a mandate to from the people to fix the problems. A new government would give an enormous boost to the confidence of the nation - people will be a lot more willing to knuckle down and make sacrifices for a government that they support and have confidence in than one that is unpopular and in paralysis. I can see a huge surge of confidence and energy following a general election. And I bet we'll see an increase in foreign investment following a election - investors are currently afraid to touch Ireland as there is so much uncertainty over the government and whether or not it has the support of the people. They will not invest until they get stability.



Do you really think a FG/Labour coalition government, led by Enda Kenny and elected on a groundswell of anger from Public Sector employees who will have an expectation of a reversal of pay cuts will be stable or have a cohesive plan that has any chance of working or attracting international capital?


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## Latrade (20 Apr 2010)

Purple said:


> Do you really think a FG/Labour coalition government, led by Enda Kenny and elected on a groundswell of anger from Public Sector employees who will have an expectation of a reversal of pay cuts will be stable or have a cohesive plan that has any chance of working or attracting international capital?


 
I agree to some extent, I will be shot for saying this but Labour are starting to make some sense of late. Far more reasoned policies. Does that mean I trust them, not sure, but the do seem to be the only party that's taken advice and getting down to specifics. 

However, now really isn't the time for a general election. It isn't just our own confidence but international confidence. We have to accept our reliance on overseas investment and exports to survive. Any uncertainty is bad at the moment.

Governments have a mandate from the moment they're elected. That mandate covers everything and every scenario during that term. This government has the mandate.

Second, the UK. It's a disaster waiting to happen and they've managed to put off the hounds with a "fake" budget. But it's unlikely that government will be in place to implement it and if they do scrape in, they won't implement it. That uncertainty isn't helping and hasn't helped the UK. All measures taken have been on the basis of the upcoming election. That's what will happen here. We have an election and important, immediate things will be postponed until after. 

Part of what's seeing us through right now is the FF plan (well what's there in some form or other) and the fact that FF have up to 2 years left. If that were to change soon, it would impact us quite dramatically. 

Hate them, like them, the people under the current system voted them in and they have the mandate until the term expires. I don't see anything coming from FG that would convince me they would be doing anything differently.


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## z107 (20 Apr 2010)

> Do you really think a FG/Labour coalition government, led by Enda Kenny and elected on a groundswell of anger from Public Sector employees who will have an expectation of a reversal of pay cuts will be stable or have a cohesive plan that has any chance of working or attracting international capital?


No. I don't think such as government has any chance.

Ireland is in a hole at the moment, and we need intelligent people with fresh ideas to dig us out. Not the current load of corrupt, incompetents and crap we have.


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## NorthDrum (20 Apr 2010)

csirl said:


> Wrong wrong wrong. An election is exactly what the nation needs right now. We need to put in place a government who will be there for the next 5 years with a mandate to from the people to fix the problems. A new government would give an enormous boost to the confidence of the nation - people will be a lot more willing to knuckle down and make sacrifices for a government that they support and have confidence in than one that is unpopular and in paralysis. I can see a huge surge of confidence and energy following a general election. And I bet we'll see an increase in foreign investment following a election - investors are currently afraid to touch Ireland as there is so much uncertainty over the government and whether or not it has the support of the people. They will not invest until they get stability.



You think investors are afraid to touch Ireland because of our government or the instability of their tenure? ? If anything foreign investors have more confidence in our existing government then we would all like to believe.

You speak of Stability, yet dont factor in that a general election midway through a 5 year term does not exactly inspire confidence nor does it suggest a stable economy . . What if we elect a complete lame duck of a government and end up with another election in 2 years ? You assume a new rainbow government will only bring positives  (dont worry, I address this assumption at the bottom of the thread).. 

We really and truly could be in the exact same position as Greece right now. Whether you agree or disagree with FF, they have managed to take us from the brink of collapse, to at least being remotely credible and arguably the best of the PIIGS. . 

You obviously dont understand international sentiment, particularly when the actions our government have taken over the last year to get our books in order have been highly received (and shown up the likes of UK who have procrastinated over making required cuts).

I cant believe people think voting in FG/Labour will definitely be a change for the better . . We are in a completely differant environment to the one that existed 3+ years ago . . So far, in terms of how FF have managed the crisis, I believe it could of been far far worse . . Labour wouldnt even try to push public service reform (so we would be left with a bloated expensive public service) and FG would simply procrastinate over what to do, while constantly reminding us it was FF who got us in this mess.

And no , Im not a FF supporter, although I would sooner vote for them based on their achievements over the last year,  then FG/Labour who we all know will simply walk into the Dail with populist agenda's that may not necessarily be for the greater good of the country..  Right now, we need FF, as they are making tougher, more important decisions to rectify our countries problems then a "populist" government would do.

Never ceases to amaze me how people can be so narrow minded in discussing politics . . Criticism where its due and credit where its due . . The opposition deserve criticism with how poorly they have been over the last few years. . Hell, they were so poor they couldnt even get in the last elections . . I dont see how ANYBODY could confidently say that they believe an alternative government will be better for the country.

I know people who think an "anything but FF" approach to voting is acceptable. . Its disgusting , ignorant and basically shows most people have learned nothing since they blindly voted in successive FF governments . . If anything, we deserved EVERYTHING that has happened to us over the last 2 years, if we believe voting for ABFF (anybody but Fianna Fail) is a way forward for our country . . 

I cant begin to try to express my disgust at this close minded approach to politics. Its the culture of politics we need to change, not necessarily the party . .We need to vote for a better politician .  . We have to vote for accountability. We have to vote for morals . . We have to demand these things and whether or not its FF or FG or Labour we will have a better government . . 

"Ah , but FG/Labour will represent change to the culture of the dail" . .

Really ..................................

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/1010/politics.html

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article6991207.ece


Sounds more like more of the same to me . . . . Assumption is the mother of all feck ups . .


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## cork (20 Apr 2010)

Latrade said:


> I will be shot for saying this but Labour are starting to make some sense of late. Far more reasoned policies.



Gilmore can't even say if he supports the Croke Park Deal.

Kenny went on national radio purposing an alternative to NAMA without any costings.

We need strong government not those 2 jokers.


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## csirl (20 Apr 2010)

> If anything foreign investors have more confidence in our existing government then we would all like to believe.


 
I have to disagree based on speaking to colleagues overseas. A view has developed that there is no point in doing business with a government that could be thrown out at any time (1 breavement could do it) and almost certainly wont be in power for the forseeable future. 

In times of crisis you need stability and public support. The current government has neither and this impacts on everything they do. 

You also totally discount public confidence. We cannot install public confidence in our economy with the current government. Public confidence and support encourages people to start in business, expand their business, increases consumer confidence and spending etc etc. This alone yield a couple percentage points of growth per annum.



> Right now, we need FF, as they are making tougher, more important decisions to rectify our countries problems then a "populist" government would do.


 
FF has proven that it doesnt have the appetite for the tough decisions that are necessary. It picks the low lying fruit such as public service wages, stealth taxes, squeeze the middle ranking PAYE worker. It has a 100% flunk rate on the decisions that are needed to get our country going i.e.

1. Take the hit on Anglo NOW - dont throw good money after bad.
2. Significant reform of the health service (eliminate admin waste).
3. Significant reform of SW with an emphasis on protecting the temporary unemployed person and reducing payments to those who are able, but have no intention of working.
4. Cleanout of banking executives - why on earth is the government negotiating with the executives who got us into this mess? They should be negotiating with the owners i.e. the shareholders and saying clean your bank up and sack the incompetents or you wont be in the guarantee.
5. Meaningful reform of the public sector i.e. eliminating the unnecessary through compulsory redundancies rather than the broad brush cut the everyones wages so that those who do a meaningful job suffer to keep those who dont employed.


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## Complainer (20 Apr 2010)

umop3p!sdn said:


> Ireland is in a hole at the moment, and we need intelligent people with fresh ideas to dig us out. Not the current load of corrupt, incompetents and crap we have.


Who are these 'intelligent people with fresh ideas'? How do you propose to put them into positions of power?


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## z107 (20 Apr 2010)

> Who are these 'intelligent people with fresh ideas'? How do you propose to put them into positions of power?


This is exactly what we need to examine, as it is the root cause of our problems.

Consider how TDs are currently elected. It's no surprise we are in the mess that we're in.


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## Complainer (20 Apr 2010)

umop3p!sdn said:


> This is exactly what we need to examine, as it is the root cause of our problems.
> 
> Consider how TDs are currently elected. It's no surprise we are in the mess that we're in.


So you don't have any proposals then?


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## Shawady (20 Apr 2010)

Purple said:


> Do you really think a FG/Labour coalition government, led by Enda Kenny and elected on a groundswell of anger from Public Sector employees who will have an expectation of a reversal of pay cuts will be stable or have a cohesive plan that has any chance of working or attracting international capital?


 
Purple, do you honestly think if there was an election tomorrow, Fianna Fail would be removed from power just because of the pay cuts in the PS? There is a lot of anger out there and there are many issues. FF were struggling in the polls before they cut a cent from PS workers.
I am not impressed by Enda Kenny at all, but it is worth remembering that Bertie Ahern was one of out most popular leaders ever and look what he presided over.


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## z107 (20 Apr 2010)

> So you don't have any proposals then?


I propose that we find a new, better way of electing TDs.


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## cork (20 Apr 2010)

csirl said:


> 5. Meaningful reform of the public sector i.e. eliminating the unnecessary through compulsory redundancies rather than the broad brush cut the everyones wages so that those who do a meaningful job suffer to keep those who dont employed.




Eamonn Gilmore lacks the bottle for public sector reform.

Is Sean Sherlock is the only person in labour who is not pandering to the Unions?


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## Firefly (20 Apr 2010)

If FG & Labour form the next government, would the last person to leave the island please turn off the lights?


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## Complainer (20 Apr 2010)

umop3p!sdn said:


> I propose that we find a new, better way of electing TDs.


But you have no particular suggestion as to what that 'new better way' might be?

To be honest, I go back to my earlier point of 'less drama, more hard work'.

If you want to change the Govt, start with your local TD. Get off your backside and do what it takes to get your choice of TD elected.


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## Shawady (20 Apr 2010)

Firefly said:


> If FG & Labour form the next government, would the last person to leave the island please turn off the lights?


 
Would a FG/Lab government be any worse than what we have had the last decade?
The last time they were in government from 94 to 97, I don't remember the country going down the tubes. The opposite in fact - I've read respected commentators state that this is when we experienced a genuine boom in our economy.
I've no loyalty to any party by the way. I just find it strange that after the mess FF have made, that many people would vote them back in rather than give the opposition a chance.


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## z107 (20 Apr 2010)

> But you have no particular suggestion as to what that 'new better way' might be?
> 
> If you want to change the Govt, start with your local TD. Get off your backside and do what it takes to get your choice of TD elected.


The first step is for people to realise where the problem is. Then we can find ways to fix it.

The 'local TD' is part of the problem. You should get off your backside and think up new ways we can elect TDs. Unless of course you're happy with the current situation (or want to approach your local TD )


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## Complainer (20 Apr 2010)

I honestly think this is a distraction. Changing the way we elect TDs would involve referenda, and it is not something we should rush into. This would take 2-5 years, with the best will in the world. To be honest, I don't see that the problem is 'the way we elect TDs'.  I don't think there is any significant appetite for this kind of change, but by all means, get out there and provide some leadership on the issue. But don't expect to make this kind of change happen with a few AAM postings. It is going to take a lot more than that. How badly do you want this to happen?


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## Latrade (20 Apr 2010)

Shawady said:


> Purple, do you honestly think if there was an election tomorrow, Fianna Fail would be removed from power just because of the pay cuts in the PS? There is a lot of anger out there and there are many issues. FF were struggling in the polls before they cut a cent from PS workers.
> I am not impressed by Enda Kenny at all, but it is worth remembering that Bertie Ahern was one of out most popular leaders ever and look what he presided over.


 
In effect, this may be where the PS/CS has a lot of power in that if they were united they could shift the balance in the next election. There are certainly plenty of days I wish I had the power to elect or not my own employer. So in a nut shell could FF be voted out for the pay cuts, if you had the entire PS/CS vote against them, maybe.

As to my points on Labour, it's an observation of late that in interviews their approach has been more reasonable and less rhetoric. Again, not a statement that I trust them, I'm fully aware it's their advisors and spin machine, but compared to say FG, Labour are moving in a direction away from trying to score political points (not totally away) and onto providing ideas. 

Quinn interviewed yesterday said some interesting things, specific things too. I find it slightly ironic among my more hardened PS/CS friends that they consider their contracts of employment sacrosanct, yet feel the contracts of employment for bankers should be torn up and ignored (pension arrangements etc). Quinn was fairly reflective that they would look at the rewards for senior bankers irrespective of contracts and that there is a reality that pay cuts for the PS would also have to be a reality. 

Am I totally convinced? No. Are they starting to make me listen? Yes. Gilmore has gained them a greater platform in the public and they aren't missing the opportunity like FG and Kenny did. I want a bit more substance, but I'm seeing the "green shoots" of hope that we may, with some time have a possibility of an opposition.


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## Firefly (20 Apr 2010)

Shawady said:


> The last time they were in government from 94 to 97,


 
It's a long time ago though. I think Labour would set us back competitively and as for Enda...everytime I see him, I think about The Breffmeister from The Apprentice !


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## Shawady (20 Apr 2010)

Latrade said:


> In effect, this may be where the PS/CS has a lot of power in that if they were united they could shift the balance in the next election. There are certainly plenty of days I wish I had the power to elect or not my own employer. So in a nut shell could FF be voted out for the pay cuts, if you had the entire PS/CS vote against them, maybe.


 
Fair point but I would not be surprised if at the next election some PS/CS employees still vote FF, given the nature of party loyalty in this country. 
I think if FF are voted out it will be more to do with getting us into this mess than the steps they are taking to get us out of it.


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## Shawady (20 Apr 2010)

Firefly said:


> It's a long time ago though. I think Labour would set us back competitively and as for Enda...everytime I see him, I think about The Breffmeister from The Apprentice !


 
I agree re: Enda. I can't believe he is the most capable leader FG can put forward. FG claim that he is a good manager of people rather than a charismatic leader. This is probably just spin but as I said in another post, Bertie consistently scored high in approval polls when in office and he will prob go down as one of our worst leaders.


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## NorthDrum (20 Apr 2010)

csirl said:


> I have to disagree based on speaking to colleagues overseas. A view has developed that there is no point in doing business with a government that could be thrown out at any time (1 breavement could do it) and almost certainly wont be in power for the forseeable future.
> 
> In times of crisis you need stability and public support. The current government has neither and this impacts on everything they do.
> 
> ...



Regarding foreign investors, I think we will agree to disagree on that point . . While I wont pretend to be an economist (or anything of the sort), I work in financial services sector and the word on the ground (certainly the one's I'm hearing and reading in foreign media outlets), is that there is a positive sentiment towards Ireland.

Remember we have been mentioned in the same brackets as Greece, yet so far we havent even come close to their crisis. . Nothing to sing and dance about, but the decisions our government took were really well considered, especially as it involved protecting bondholders (one of the reasons this was done was so these guys will reinvest in Ireland).

I think you are missing my point . . Part of the public anger at the government is that they are bailing out investors . . Do you think these investors would prefer a happy Ireland, but no refund of their investment ? Like it or not, Ireland is a country that honors its debts and protects investors in time of crisis . . Im not saying I agree with this ideology, but as an investor you could only be happy.

As far as public confidence in Ireland. What country in the world has a happy government or happy public ? You forget that most countries are dealing with their own crisis . . Snap elections are not a solution to civil unrest in our situation. . I still dont see how you think a new government (3 years into a term) will convince people Ireland has solved its civil unrest, it could very well lead to more elections over less terms as the new government rolls back on promises it was never going to be able to keep. We need the problem stabilized and then we can pick the right government for the future. Right now, people voting while angry will make rash decisions and ask very little of their T.D.'s ("just dont be like FF) . . 

Right now, we need to get the collective heads down and dig Ireland out of this crisis . . When the dust has settled, then you go after the dodgy politicians and the rogue bankers who have gotten away with too much for too long . . I think that Ireland, as a nation, needs to grow up and earn the right to be run fairly . . I think a new Ireland can be created on an election born out of anger, but not right now. . People need time to assess what happened and why . . Then you demand that your local TD show the principles that you feel is right for the country . .Doesn't matter what TD it is .  . Say that the only way they will get your vote is by showing moral leadership and transparent plans. 

That aside, I dont necessarily disagree with your 5 points, but what makes you so sure that FG or labour will implement these reforms ? Again, my point isnt that people should vote FF, its that they should demand this off whoever they are voting for . . Whatever anybody thinks of FF, they were the majority party for the guts of two decades, so you need only look at the electorate if you want to point fingers . . 

I simply dont have confidence in our society/electorate and I believe they need to grow up and start making rational, educated decisions based on whats good for the country (not just whats good for them). But we simply are not at that stage yet. With that in mind, I believe we would end up voting in a populist government with a completely backwards agenda that's all about just not being FF. . One year down the road (if they last that long), after listening to them make excuses on why they couldnt make any progress on their promises (its all FFs fault for leaving this mess. . Waffle waffle waffl), we would be looking for a new government . .

Having an election and voting in the very weak opposition in power (without any real expectation other then that they wont be FF) is like jumping into bed with a bird who looks like your ex girlfriend (who cheated on you) just in spite of your ex . .
*
Yes we need change . . But the most important change needs to be in the attitudes and morals of the electorate . .*


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## Purple (20 Apr 2010)

Shawady said:


> I think if FF are voted out it will be more to do with getting us into this mess than the steps they are taking to get us out of it.


 Yes, I agree. Much of the ranting about what FF are doing now seems to have more to do with deflected anger at peoples own stupidity over the last few years. What Bertie and many of the existing bunch of mutton-heads did is tantamount to treason but that’s no reason not to look what they are doing at the moment in a rational way. I would vote for any party that was going to make Brian Lenihan minister for finance. I would vote against any party that would put Bertie in charge.

I have voted against FF in the last few elections. I would vote for them if there was an election tomorrow.


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## csirl (20 Apr 2010)

Returning a government that hasnt worked and isnt working = 0% chance of change.

With every other combination of parties there is % chance that there will be change for the better - I admit for some parties, it may be a small percentage (and for others it may be a large one), but a small percent chance is better than no chance.


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## NOAH (20 Apr 2010)

@purple

Could you explain your post a bit more???   Are you not aware that it was FF that led us into this crisis?  And why vote for a crowd that screwed you?  That is perverse and if that is the normal approach we are doomed.  A minister for finance is a figurehead!  Are you then saying if lenihan goes to fianna gael you will vote fianna gael???

lost


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## NorthDrum (20 Apr 2010)

csirl said:


> Returning a government that hasnt worked and isnt working = 0% chance of change.
> 
> With every other combination of parties there is % chance that there will be change for the better - I admit for some parties, it may be a small percentage (and for others it may be a large one), but a small percent chance is better than no chance.



You just dont seem to get it . . You are advocating change for the sake of it . . Like "sure we cant do much worse can we!" . . Seriously, people need never wonder how we are in such a state . .

Lenihan has been the only shining light in the Dail for many a year (I include the opposition in that) . . Hes actually the only politician whose hand I would dearly love to shake. I think he has bee superb and gets better the longer he is in that position . . Only for him, I think we would be sitting with Greece as the basketcase of Europe.

That aside, Im not talking about returning the same government, Im just not ruling out FF because the name is a dirty word . . As a nation, if we really want to learn from our mistakes we need to accept that we all made mistakes and one of them was not thinking of the greater good of the country . . If we truely want change, it shouldnt be just a change of party, it has to be a change of culture  . .


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## Purple (20 Apr 2010)

NOAH said:


> @purple
> 
> Could you explain your post a bit more???   Are you not aware that it was FF that led us into this crisis?  And why vote for a crowd that screwed you?  That is perverse and if that is the normal approach we are doomed.  A minister for finance is a figurehead!  Are you then saying if lenihan goes to fianna gael you will vote fianna gael???
> 
> lost


FF are a party made up of people. If the people change then then the nature of the party changes. The same applies to most other parties. Policies and the ability of the people in a position to run with them are what matters. 
BTW, the finance minister is far more than a figure head.


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## cork (20 Apr 2010)

Firefly said:


> It's a long time ago though. I think Labour would set us back competitively and as for Enda...everytime I see him, I think about The Breffmeister from The Apprentice !




It was FG who were largely in -control of Local Government during the Celtic Tiger.

Zonings and planning permissions were given - to ghost estates and unwanted houses in the middle of no-where.


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## csirl (20 Apr 2010)

NorthDrum said:


> You just dont seem to get it . . You are advocating change for the sake of it . . Like "sure we cant do much worse can we!" . . Seriously, people need never wonder how we are in such a state . .
> 
> Lenihan has been the only shining light in the Dail for many a year (I include the opposition in that) . . Hes actually the only politician whose hand I would dearly love to shake. I think he has bee superb and gets better the longer he is in that position . . Only for him, I think we would be sitting with Greece as the basketcase of Europe.
> 
> That aside, Im not talking about returning the same government, Im just not ruling out FF because the name is a dirty word . . As a nation, if we really want to learn from our mistakes we need to accept that we all made mistakes and one of them was not thinking of the greater good of the country . . If we truely want change, it shouldnt be just a change of party, it has to be a change of culture . .


 
No, you just dont get it. You forget that the government is at fault for having us in this crisis to begin with. If someone else had been in power in recent years, then any comparisons with Greece would be irrelevant.

I think you are displaying classic victim of bullying denial behaviour. You know you are getting a raw deal, but your confidence has been damaged so much that you think that you dont deserve any better or that you cannot survive without the bully. 

Believe me, we can do a lot better.


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## Complainer (20 Apr 2010)

cork said:


> It was FG who were largely in -control of Local Government during the Celtic Tiger.
> 
> Zonings and planning permissions were given - to ghost estates and unwanted houses in the middle of no-where.


I'm sure the party is very proud of your ongoing attempts to deflect responsibility away from Fianna Fail, but most people will see through these feeble attempts. 

FG didn't set planning policy - that came out of Dept Environment under FF ministers. FG didn't appoint the members of An Bord Pleanala, who repeatedly overruled any attempts by local authorities to hold back on development. FF appointed these people.


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## Purple (20 Apr 2010)

csirl said:


> If someone else had been in power in recent years, then any comparisons with Greece would be irrelevant.



 The only thing the opposition said after successive give-away budgets over the last ten years was "you should have given away more". Nobody from FG or Labour said "Hang on there, can we afford these massive increases in public sector numbers and pay" or "Can we afford these tax breaks that cause the pro-cyclical bubble that fund the massive increases in government spending that buys off all and sundry?" They may have wheezed on about fairness the odd time, particularly the self-serving double spread from Labour, but they never questioned if all that money should have been thrown around. Do you really think a government headed by a dunder-head like Enda Kenny and populated by smoked-salmon socialists, motivated by both resentment of the new rich who got their hands dirty for a living and their own upper middleclass angst and guilt, would have done anything differently? An FG with Alan Dukes and a Labour Party with Dick Spring and Ruairi Quinn (prior to the Democratic Left reverse takeover) may have been different but not that shower.


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## Purple (20 Apr 2010)

Complainer said:


> I'm sure the party is very proud of your ongoing attempts to deflect responsibility away from Fianna Fail, but most people will see through these feeble attempts.


 Yes, it's all Fianna Fail's fault... them and the bankers and developers... God forbid any of us accept responsibility for our own actions. Get rid of them and all will be well. They are our very own wicker man. 

I think I see your strategy now:
In order to fix the problem we first have to fix the blame. We then punish those that are to blame and hey presto the problem has gone away. Brilliant! 

You’re not wearing a pair of ruby-red slippers by any chance?


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## csirl (21 Apr 2010)

The moral hazard needs to apply to politics in Ireland - you mess up, you lose power.


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## cork (21 Apr 2010)

csirl said:


> No, you just dont get it. You forget that the government is at fault for having us in this crisis to begin with. If someone else had been in power in recent years, then any comparisons with Greece would be irrelevant..




The banks in many other countries have the same trouble with banks.

Alan Greenspan was seen as vital - He made errors.

Many people in this country are little Irelanders failing to look at whats happened abroad.

The part played by many Irish in bidding up property also deserves attention.


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## NorthDrum (21 Apr 2010)

csirl said:


> No, you just dont get it. You forget that the government is at fault for having us in this crisis to begin with. If someone else had been in power in recent years, then any comparisons with Greece would be irrelevant.
> 
> I think you are displaying classic victim of bullying denial behaviour. You know you are getting a raw deal, but your confidence has been damaged so much that you think that you dont deserve any better or that you cannot survive without the bully.
> 
> Believe me, we can do a lot better.



Others have already replied to your unusual stance, I fear this is a windup (I certainly hope it is!) . .


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## csirl (21 Apr 2010)

Am I the only person who regards cronyism, gombeenism and corruption as being wrong?



> They may have wheezed on about fairness the odd time, particularly the self-serving double spread from Labour, but they never questioned if all that money should have been thrown around. Do you really think a government headed by a dunder-head like Enda Kenny and populated by smoked-salmon socialists, motivated by both resentment of the new rich who got their hands dirty for a living and their own upper middleclass angst and guilt, would have done anything differently? An FG with Alan Dukes and a Labour Party with Dick Spring and Ruairi Quinn (prior to the Democratic Left reverse takeover) may have been different but not that shower.


 
I think we are approaching a watershed moment where the dymanics of Irish politics changes forever. While its a FG/Lab government is a likely outcome of the next election, I think this will only be a temporary partnership for the term of the government. The election after the next will almost certainly be FG v Labour, with FF relegated to 3rd place. Civil war politics will finally be dead and we'll mirror what happens in most western democracies i.e. centre right v centre left as being the big parties battling for power in most elections. 


With regard to a FG/Labour coalition government. I'm optimistic, that true to form, the champagne socialists will be more concerned about their mercs and perks than actually implementing policies, so their impact will be minimal. I'm not a fan of Enda Kenny - but remember that we've got Jukka Brother Cowen in charge right now - would be difficult for anyone to do worse and given such a poor impression of the country to overseas investors.


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## Purple (21 Apr 2010)

csirl said:


> Am I the only person who regards cronyism, gombeenism and corruption as being wrong?



No.


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## lightswitch (21 Apr 2010)

csirl said:


> Am I the only person who regards cronyism, gombeenism and corruption as being wrong?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

No, I regard it as being wrong too.  It is unfortunatly rampant and I would not presently be optimistic of seeing the end of it any time soon.


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## Purple (21 Apr 2010)

csirl said:


> The moral hazard needs to apply to politics in Ireland - you mess up, you lose power.


 That's a good point.


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## Sunny (21 Apr 2010)

The question, 'does the opposition want to be in Government at the moment' needs to be asked as well. I think the answer is no. 

FF is a dead man walking no matter what happens between now and the general election. FG and Labour know this and are prepared to wait. 

There has to be a minimum of one TD for every 30,000 people. If the opposition want an election so badly, could they not easily all resign their seats and force an election?


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## NorthDrum (21 Apr 2010)

csirl said:


> Am I the only person who regards cronyism, gombeenism and corruption as being wrong?
> 
> .



No, but you dont seem to understand that its not limited simply just to FF. . To suggest that getting rid of FF means we will have none of that is simply naive at best. Look across the water and you will see other parties (OMG - Non FF parties screwing Joe Public .. How so?) taking liberties with their positions, in fairness some British MP's took the complete **** . . Its political culture that has to be tackled, not one party.

Why are you so convinced that FG/Labour government will be so different ? You didnt reply to my comments on Gilemore and a few other FG'rs rolling back on their paycuts so I assumed you were simply an FG supporter looking to throw spanners anywhere people question the oppositions credibility.

Also, you wouldnt actually comment properly on why you felt things would of been different had things been under labour/FG (despite the fact they spent more time demanding that the government actually spend more money in the good years, as opposed to question how they were raking in so much revenue). There is nothing to disproove the theory that this country would be even further in a hole, had the opposition been in power. . Nothing, yet you presume this to be fact . .

Basically you speak of the way most of us would like politics to be, but you dont seem to actually think of how it can be done, making the very large assumption that anybody but FF will be more accountable and honest . . I would hazzard a guess that "we are not FF" will be a majority of the marketing done by opposition for the next election and that should be enough for you and a large amount of people which is really a bad incitement of our society and how its failed to learn anything at all from this crisis. . 

I want more from my TD, I want more accountability, I want more honesty, I want more transparency, long term national planning and most of all I want confidence in them. . . We have received neither off our government or opposition (pander to the crowd, PR stunts etc). . We dont need new parties, we need new politicians, leaders and people who inspire . . Not many of the current crop do much for me . . . I will follow a politician who can lead the lines with integrity and make the tough calls when its needed . . I dont want 2nd last ("well its better then FF"), I want the best of the best leading our country and while many many people have the attitude that you *appear* to be displaying , it will never happen . .


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## Complainer (21 Apr 2010)

Sunny said:


> There has to be a minimum of one TD for every 30,000 people. If the opposition want an election so badly, could they not easily all resign their seats and force an election?


Tell that to the people of Dublin South who have been down one TD for much of the current Dail term. It is not possible to force an election through resignations.


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## Sunny (21 Apr 2010)

Complainer said:


> Tell that to the people of Dublin South who have been down one TD for much of the current Dail term. It is not possible to force an election through resignations.


 
Why not? The constitution says there must be at least one TD for every 30,000 people in the Country. If every opposition TD resigned their seat, there wouldn't be enough TD's, the Dail would not be able to sit and there would have to be an election.

Would be maddness but if Gilmore and Kenny want power and think they could a better job, then why not? They claim the Government has lost it's mandate anyway.


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## Shawady (21 Apr 2010)

Funny enough, if there was election tomorrow the person it could suit the most is Brian Lenihan. FF would be removed from office, he could get the treatment he requires and have time to recover. Let someone else take over FF until close to the next election in 2015, and be back in as leader just in time for the centinary celebrations for the Easter rising in 2016.
Maybe I'm making it sound too simple.


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## Complainer (21 Apr 2010)

Sunny said:


> Why not? The constitution says there must be at least one TD for every 30,000 people in the Country. If every opposition TD resigned their seat, there wouldn't be enough TD's, the Dail would not be able to sit and there would have to be an election.


The constitution has nothing in it about a Govt being forced into an election. The requirement for one TD per 30k applies to the planning and allocation of TDs. The Govt have left Dublin South and half of Donegal down one TD for long periods without any problem. At various times due to population changes, the one TD per 30k limit was way out. 

There is nothing in the constitution that can force an election in this way.


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## Sunny (21 Apr 2010)

I didn't say there was a Constitutional requirement for an election. However, the Dail could not function with only roughly 80 TD's. I have it on good authority that any attempt to pass new laws would be unconstitutional in that situation. No different to half the Dail been wiped out in a plane crash. The Dail could not function and would have to be dissolved and elections held.

When was the requirement for one TD per 20,000 to 30,000 of the population broken?


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## csirl (21 Apr 2010)

> Also, you wouldnt actually comment properly on why you felt things would of been different had things been under labour/FG


 
Anglo would have been wound down if FF werent in power. 



> Basically you speak of the way most of us would like politics to be, but you dont seem to actually think of how it can be done, making the very large assumption that anybody but FF will be more accountable and honest . . I would hazzard a guess that "we are not FF" will be a majority of the marketing done by opposition for the next election and that should be enough for you and a large amount of people which is really a bad incitement of our society and how its failed to learn anything at all from this crisis. .


 
Your whole argument is essentially....."you might as well vote FF because the opposition are just as corrupt". We know with 100% certainty what FF is like. You cannot say with 100% certainty that an alternative government would be as bad as FF - you cannot even say with 100% certainty what alternative government may be elected. Even if there is only a 1% chance that an alternative will be better, then this is better than 0% chance. FF will not change unless they are voted out - why would they?


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## Complainer (21 Apr 2010)

Sunny said:


> However, the Dail could not function with only roughly 80 TD's. I have it on good authority that any attempt to pass new laws would be unconstitutional in that situation.


Any chance you would ask your 'good authority' specifically which article(s) of the constitution would be breached in such a case?



Sunny said:


> When was the requirement for one TD per 20,000 to 30,000 of the  population broken?


[broken link removed]


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## NorthDrum (21 Apr 2010)

csirl said:


> Anglo would have been wound down if FF werent in power.
> 
> Your whole argument is essentially....."you might as well vote FF because the opposition are just as corrupt". We know with 100% certainty what FF is like. You cannot say with 100% certainty that an alternative government would be as bad as FF - you cannot even say with 100% certainty what alternative government may be elected. Even if there is only a 1% chance that an alternative will be better, then this is better than 0% chance. FF will not change unless they are voted out - why would they?



Anglo winding down would cost us exactly how much ? Im not sure what that would cost, but how much do you think it would of cost us to wind it down ? Are you sure it would be cheaper (including the knock on effects) to the country or are you just presuming it would because it was an unpopular decision to save them?

Secondly, I never said vote for FF . . I said vote for the right candidate and demand more from your politicians. . You assume its anybody but FF which is plain silly no matter what fictitious stats you write down. .

Lastly, you still refuse to accept that there were plenty of things that could of been done to make things worse, including spending more money during the good years which is what the opposition demanded. You dont seem to want to acknowledge this FACT or the fact that FG tried a PR stunt to appear to be with the little man and then rolled back on it a year later or that there were councellors from your beloved Non FF party who also had a huge part to play in the property bubble . . .

You just assume that any other party will be better or that it couldnt be made worse by a populist party . . . I dont know why I even reply, these kind of debates remind me why I have no confidence in the electorate and why we will probably always be stuck with sub standard politicians . .


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## D8Lady (21 Apr 2010)

One could argue that NAMA legislation should have triggered an election based on Article 27 of the constitution: 

"Article 27 
A majority  	of the members of Seanad Éireann and not less than one-third of the  members  	of Dáil Éireann may by a joint petition addressed to the President by  them under  	this Article request the President to decline to sign and promulgate as  a law  	any Bill to which this article applies on the ground that the Bill  contains  	*a proposal of such national importance that the will of the people  thereon ought  	to be ascertained." 


*


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## D8Lady (21 Apr 2010)

I want an election becuase after all that has happened, the following comments were made in the Dáil this afternoon:

On RTE 

"Fianna Fáil backbencher Ned O'Keeffe has criticised the decision to  give Financial Regulator Matthew Elderfield extra resources and has  praised his predecessor Patrick Neary.

 Speaking in the Dáil this afternoon, Deputy O'Keeffe said there was  nothing worse than financial over-regulation, which he claimed brought  about mischief and blackguarding.

 He asked what Mr Elderfield would do with the proposed complement of  700 staff in his office claiming there were not that many bank branches  in Ireland.

The Cork East TD said Mr Neary was a decent and honourable man who  initially had to operate without staff or legislation.

 Mr O'Keefe defended AIB, which he claimed had served the agricultural  sector better than any other bank.

 He told TDs that he held shares in a number of institutions including  AIB and he wanted to see it owned by the people and not the State."

I don't want 2 more years of this muppetry - with apologies to Kermit The Frog.


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## Sunny (21 Apr 2010)

Complainer said:


> Any chance you would ask your 'good authority' specifically which article(s) of the constitution would be breached in such a case?
> 
> [broken link removed]



why don't you read the constitution? It doesn't say that there has to be one td per 30000 in one area. It's based on the national population. Therefore you can't have 80 Tds serving a population of 4m people. So again when was this breached?


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## bogle (21 Apr 2010)

D8Lady said:


> ... in the Dáil this afternoon:
> 
> On RTE
> 
> ...




Beam me up, Scotty!!!


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## Complainer (21 Apr 2010)

Sunny said:


> Therefore you can't have 80 Tds serving a population of 4m people.


The constitution doesn't say that you can't have 80 TDs. There is no obligation on Govt to call bye-elections. I wish there was, but there isn't.

You're going down a rathole.


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## Sunny (21 Apr 2010)

Complainer said:


> The constitution doesn't say that you can't have 80 TDs. There is no obligation on Govt to call bye-elections. I wish there was, but there isn't.
> 
> You're going down a rathole.


 
Yes it does....If we have a population of 4m people, we can't have only 80 TD's. Thats one TD per 50,000. I am sure they could get away with a small margin caused by changing population but I would like to see the Judge who said that a law passed by 80 TD's was consitutional. If not, FF could arrange accidents for every opposition TD and never call a by-election. Make life easier.

1° Dáil Éireann shall be composed of members who represent constituencies determined by law. 2° The number of members shall from time to time be fixed by law, but *the total number of members of Dáil Éireann shall not be fixed at less than one member for each thirty thousand of the population, or at more than one member for each twenty thousand of the population.* 
3° The ratio between the number of members to be elected at any time for each constituency and the population of each constituency, as ascertained at the last preceding census, shall, so far as it is practicable, be the same throughout the country. 
4° The Oireachtas shall revise the constituencies at least once in every twelve years, with due regard to changes in distribution of the population, but any alterations in the constituencies shall not take effect during the life of Dáil Éireann sitting when such revision is made. 
5° The members shall be elected on the system of proportional representation by means of the single transferable vote. 
6° No law shall be enacted whereby the number of members to be returned for any constituency shall be less than three.​ 

Good luck trying to get the President to sign in any law if half the seats in the Dail were not filled. Donegal East, Dublin South and Waterford all have 3 or more seats filled even taking into account the empty seats at the moment. The Dail cannot sit if every opposition TD resigned. An election would have to be called. 

You said the one TD per 30,000 requirement was regulary breached. When?​


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## csirl (22 Apr 2010)

The Constitution provides for the number of seats in Dail Eireann. It does not have any obligation on having TDs physically present in these seats - otherwise a lot of our laws would be invalid as the Dail chamber is rarely full. If all the opposition TDs resign, their seats still exist, so it would not invalidate the Dail. And there wouldnt be a general election - the vacant seats would be filled by by-elections.


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## csirl (22 Apr 2010)

> Anglo winding down would cost us exactly how much ? Im not sure what that would cost, but how much do you think it would of cost us to wind it down ? Are you sure it would be cheaper (including the knock on effects) to the country or are you just presuming it would because it was an unpopular decision to save them?


 
It would have been let go bust as its not systemic. Cost = zero. 



> Secondly, I never said vote for FF . . I said vote for the right candidate and demand more from your politicians. . You assume its anybody but FF which is plain silly no matter what fictitious stats you write down. .


 
I dont think its silly. TDs of all parties follow the party line. We have one of the most "whipped" parliaments in the world. All TDs will vote for the parties policies, so it doesnt matter which individuals members of any party get elected. 



> You just assume that any other party will be better or that it couldnt be made worse by a populist party . . . I dont know why I even reply, these kind of debates remind me why I have no confidence in the electorate and why we will probably always be stuck with sub standard politicians . .


 
To be honest, people who will blindly vote sub standard candidates or a particular party no matter how big a mess they make are a sad reflection on the electorate. As are people who vote for populist parish pump parties rather than those who put forward policies. I'm tired of populist parish pump politics and tired of this blind loyalty to certain parties "because my grandfather fought with them in the civil war". 

As I said earlier, where's the moral hazard? If you mess up, you deserve to get the boot full stop. I'm tired of excuses.

P.S. Where's the personal responsibilty? Your core argument is still that the opposition would have done just as bad a job, so you might as well vote for the current government. You know the old say...."If my granny had etc........she'd be my grandfather". The facts are that the opposition werent in power and didnt make a mess of things - It was the Government and each and every individual member needs to take personal responsibilty for their part. If I were a Government TD, I'd be ashamed to stand again for election - it just wouldnt be the right do to after the failures. Irish politicians have no moral backbone.


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## Firefly (22 Apr 2010)

csirl said:


> It would have been let go bust as its not systemic. Cost = zero.


 
Everyone with deposits with Anglo would lose them. Alternatively, under the banking guarantee, the Government (aka taxpayer) would have to stump this amount


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## cork (22 Apr 2010)

Agree. It is amazing that so many TDs have so little understanding of the costs of leaving Anglo sink.

The Labour Party have little understanding of economics apart from Sean Sherlock.


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## Mpsox (22 Apr 2010)

There are some very simple truths that I am not sure everyone in Ireland has grasped.

The Govt are to blame, but not solely to blame, the real "Golden Circle" of the banks, regulators, developers, local councils, unions all have to take their share of the blame as well. In addition, many people in Ireland got greedy and thought the good times would never end. I've no sympathy for anyone who spent a fortune on credit on plasma TVs, 4x4s etc and now are struggling to pay it back and I've even less sympathy for gamblers who bought buy to let properties on 100% mortgages, sometimes interest only. They gambled, they lost, they need to deal with it. 

There is no way out of this current mess without it costing the nation billions, whatever the option, whether it is NAMA, closing Anglo, nationalising the banks, whatever, it's going to cost billions. The opposition can "oppose" all they like, where are their properly costed alternatives?. I'm not aware of them and if they are there, then they suck at getting their message across

The only way to pay for all of this is to raise taxes now and into the future. I don't believe any of the opposition parties have had the ***** to come out and actually say exactly how they would do this, what the impact on my income tax bill and on indirect taxes would be. Shame on them. The Govt reduced the tax take by too much and spent too much money on unearned pay rises, how many of us can truthfully say we didn't agree with it?. Let's be honest, we all liked having more in our paypacket

If we want to transform the Dail and do away with parochialism in it, then the only way to do that is to give local Councils more power, including the means to raise funding, probably via property taxes. Having said that, I think it is important that those who are in the Dail do not lose touch with the views and issues people have "back home".

The probability is that many of the people who got us into this mess will never face criminal charges because they may not have actually broken the law. That's the Govt's fault for not having adequate regulation in place. It should be a cardinal aim of all political parties to prevent a reoccurance and shame on all the politicians from all sides who were too scared to stand up and support the regulator over Quinn. We shouldn't forget what the buffoons who got us into this mess have done, nor should we not try to convict them, but let's not become obsessed by it. We need to get on with more important things like our childrens future


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## Purple (22 Apr 2010)

+1 Mpsox


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## Complainer (22 Apr 2010)

Sunny said:


> You said the one TD per 30,000 requirement was regulary breached. When?


Is there any chance we could stick to the real world for this discussion. What I actually said was "At various times due to population changes, the one TD per 30k limit was way out" and I gave you one particular example. Dublin South is due to take some space from Dun Laoghaire, as DL loses one TD this time round. Feel free to check out other constituency boundary changes or changes to number of TDs to see where the ratios have been breached.


Sunny said:


> 1° Dáil Éireann shall be composed of members who represent constituencies determined by law. 2° The number of members shall from time to time be fixed by law, but *the total number of members of Dáil Éireann shall not be fixed at less than one member for each thirty thousand of the population, or at more than one member for each twenty thousand of the population.*
> 3° The ratio between the number of members to be elected at any time for each constituency and the population of each constituency, as ascertained at the last preceding census, shall, so far as it is practicable, be the same throughout the country. ​


​ Read the words. 'total number of members' and 'members to be elected'. This has nothing to do with resignations. Resignations have no impact on these articles.


Sunny said:


> Good luck trying to get the President to sign in any law if half the seats in the Dail were not filled. ​


​ Good luck in trying to get Mary Mc to go against her Fianna Fail gene pool. Don't hold your breath waiting for that to happen.


Sunny said:


> An election would have to be called. ​


​ You can keep repeating it as often as you like, but it has no basis in reality.



cork said:


> Agree. It is amazing that so many TDs have so little understanding of the costs of leaving Anglo sink.
> 
> The Labour Party have little understanding of economics apart from Sean Sherlock.


Right, so the one party that highlighted the potential risk to the State of covering irresponsible lending BEFORE the guarantee was put in place is the one you single out for 'little understanding of economics' (excluding your local hero of course). How does that make sense? I suppose you prefer the Clowenomics approach of creating pyramid schemes and praying that the bubble doesn't burst?



Mpsox said:


> The only way to pay for all of this is to raise taxes now and into the future. I don't believe any of the opposition parties have had the ***** to come out and actually say exactly how they would do this, what the impact on my income tax bill and on indirect taxes would be. Shame on them.


Shame on you for not bothering to Google. From [broken link removed] (albeit 18 months old)


> - A new 48% tax rate should be introduced for those earning over €100,000.


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## Mpsox (22 Apr 2010)

Complainer said:


> Shame on you for not bothering to Google. From [broken link removed] (albeit 18 months old)


 
world has changed a lot in 18 months and I'd lile to think that they would have revisited polices since then.As I said, shame on them for not getting their message across, after all, they are the ones looking for my vote, or perhaps they have a reason for not stating this too publicaly . Maybe I am becoming too cynical in my old age


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## Complainer (22 Apr 2010)

Mpsox said:


> world has changed a lot in 18 months and I'd lile to think that they would have revisited polices since then.As I said, shame on them for not getting their message across, after all, they are the ones looking for my vote, or perhaps they have a reason for not stating this too publicaly . Maybe I am becoming too cynical in my old age


Or maybe you are falling into the trap that you accuse others of falling into - blaming everyone else and not taking personal responsibility?


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## Firefly (22 Apr 2010)

mpsox said:


> we need to get on with more important things like our childrens future


 
+1


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## Mpsox (22 Apr 2010)

Complainer said:


> Or maybe you are falling into the trap that you accuse others of falling into - blaming everyone else and not taking personal responsibility?


 
Quite possible, after all, I also happily took my tax reductions and increase in value in my house and didn't complain about it at the time. Hindsight is indeed wonderful.


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