# Planning refused - Ribbon Development



## sheridnd (27 May 2010)

Hi All,

I have been refused planning and would like to get some thoughts on what my next actions might be.

The proposed site is family owned land and it has existing houses located at both ends of the site. Around 5 houses at one end and 1 house at the other. The site is just outside a urban town boundary (20 metres or so) it is fully serviced (i.e. water, sewerage etc. the local town bus going up and down the road!) from the town.

There is one point of refusal ribbon development. (where 5 or more houses exist on any one side of a given 250 metres of road frontage)

In the refusal it says that this is a rural area. What is the exact definition of a rural area? does it make any difference that it is fully serviced by the town? Does ribbon development apply just to rural area’s?

Could it be argued that the proposed site is infill? Which seems to be a exception for ribbon development the proposed site has road footage of over a 100 metres is this to much to be considered infill?

What next? On what points could I best put my case forward? is it worth getting some expert advice?

Thanks


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## RKQ (28 May 2010)

sheridnd said:


> the proposed site has road footage of over a 100 metres is this to much to be considered infill?


 
Get professional advice, its difficult to answer this query without seeing the site. 

It strikes me that 100m road frontage is very wide! Can you reduce the width of your site to 35m or 40m, leaving a vacany plot or field of 65m or 60m?

The Development plan with show the Urban boundary. Having a serviced site doesn't make it an urban site. Rule of thump - look for speed limit sign. Which side of the speed limit sign is your site on?

A serviced site with mains sewerage _might_ have an advantage over a septic tank. An Bord Pleanala prefer serviced sites but its proximity to an urban area could be a disadvantage - ABP like clearly defined, clearly separate towns & villages. 


Points you could put my forward:-

Local connection to area - family, community.
Fully serviced site - no rise to groundwater.
Proximity to urban area - substainable - no need to rely on car transport.
Revised site width to 40m, leaveing clear "break" of 60m in ribbon development argument.
Seek experienced professional advice from an Arch Technician, Architect or Engineer, experienced in making Appeals.


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## sheridnd (28 May 2010)

The speed limit on the road in front of the site is 50 mph. The official urban boundary is actually around 30 metres from the site so it falls just outside it. On the refused application the site was 40m in size leaving 60m free just wondering if increasing it to the full road footage would help. Who best to talk with a planning consultant for advice? any recommendations...


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## onq (30 May 2010)

Hi sheridnd,

I am assuming this is a recent refusal from the Council and you are thinking of applying again.

If it is not, disregard Option B) below.

It it is and you are thinking of Appealing read Option B) below.

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*
A) Going in for Planning Again*

Some history of the process whereby the planning application was lodged etc would be of help in forming an opinion of what to do.

This is a situation where there may be a need for a horse for a course.
Some local knowedge may be acquired from your local elected representative.

Depending on the balance of the Council, your family's level activity politically or otherwise and which way you're aligned, this may act in your favour or not - it can be a twoedged sword.
Plus if its a development plan thing - Ribbon Development PLUS its outside the town boundary - there may be a situation that even a well connected family may find difficult to recover from.
I suppose I should qualify that and confirm I'm not suggesting a corrupt planning process should be availed of, but I have seen plans "interpreted" quite legally to favour a "well-loved" applicant.

Local knowledge from an unregistered architect may help you get the lay of the land for very little outlay.
Many such will not charge for an initial consultation and may well have been operating in the locality for twenty years or more.
They have a low key, relatively low cost approach, get on well with Council officuals and may have a good track record with difficult planning permissions.
Given the several positive things stacking in your favour, I think you might at least have a fighting chance if you talked to someone like that, asuming there was some leeway in the Development Plan.

However, the complications of the planners requirements may be beyond the unregistered architect's expertise or experience.
There may be for example an issue of good modern design which might be beyond the unregistered architect's ability.
Then in such a case an MRIAI/ Registered architect with a track record of good design may be useful.
The MRIAI/ Registered architect may cost proportionately more in terms of fees, due to:
(i) the additional work on design and presentation required by the planner
(ii) what the architect may be bringing to the table and 
(iii) the additional workload to achieve a result.​However, even going with an MRIAI who is a good designer may not swing the ball your way if there is a planning issue involved that cannot be overcome by good design alone.
The fact is that there is always someone affected by the positioning of a town boundary and might just be that unfortunate person.
This suggests that the involvement of a planning consultant may be required and this in turn he/she will need careful selection.
Normally a planning consultant doesn't take on small jobs like this, but in the current climate all are hungry for work.

However the last thing you need is an arrogant "big gun" from outside the area wading into a rural planning matter and getting up everyone's noses.
Again, as with the architects, start off with someone with local knowledge and/or experience of this kind of application in similar locations - this may give him an edge.
Obviously if this needs greater resources/greater expertise you may soon be entering an arena where it will be cheaper to buy another site than employ the professionals you might need.

Alternatively on the longer term, the town is likely to continue to grow, with Ireland being the most fertile country in the EU in 2007!
Waiting for the next development plan review - which can occur withing the 5 year life of the plan - may be an option.
A relaxation of the ribbon development prohibition may follow the moving of the boundary to include your site.

Eespecially if you lobby for it!!!


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*B) Appealing this Refusal Decision.*

If you are still within the time period for making an appeal you should take advice from a competent person about lodging a 1st party appeal [you appeal this decision] and see if you can get the decision reversed.

If you are told you are unlikely to succeed in getting the decision reversed but you don't want a planning history of a refusal on the site you should take advise from a competent person about Appealing and then withdrawing the application from before the Board of Appeal [not sure if this can still be done - think it can].

Either way the phrase "you should take advise from a competent person" is what you need to focus on.


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If you think you need more advice post here and if we can help we will, but at some point you'll need to consult a competent person.

If you are within the 4 week Appeal Period you need to get your skates on re making an Appeal as noted above at *B)*.

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon                              as a defence or support - in and of itself -         should       legal        action    be      taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in                              Real Life with rights to inspect and issue       reports    on     the         matters    at      hand.


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## sheridnd (1 Jun 2010)

Hi ONQ,

Many thanks for the response. 

We are currently within the 4 week appeal period but I'm not going to lodge an appeal taking on your advice I'm going to try to chat with a local area architect/engineer for some advice. I then hope to set up a meeting with the planner to see if the issue can be addressed to there satisfaction depending on the outcome/atmosphere of the meeting I may look for additional advice. Will reapply and see how it goes at that point if refused again may have to appeal. 

By the looks of things I'm looking at a good few months of trying to get it resolved. 

Thanks again


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## onq (1 Jun 2010)

You're very welcome, sheridnd.

No matter where a boundary is drawn someone is always affected by the boundary - that's just the way it is.
Even if its drawn in open country, the townscape gets built up to it eventually and the situation you're in develops.

This gets dealt with on a case by case basis, depending on services, access, road and entrance geometry and speed limit.
The fact that you're within the Urban Speed Limit area weighs in your favour, as does the proximity to the town boundary, as does your local connection.

I think a softly, softly approach is always best at first, because you can always turn up the volume later on if you get stonewalled.

But even then I'd advise working around the problem somehow.
Perhaps negotiating an entrance to your site across the adjoining land to allow it to enter the road within the urban area may allow some leeway in interpreting the development plan.

As well as people who are affected by the town boundary, there may beprecedents set by An Bórd Pleanála and past interpretations by the local planner, both of which could provide loopholes for you.
The well-resourced Planning Consultant might know of the former, while the local building professional may know of the latter.

Don't be afraid to talk to successful local engineers who specialise in house plannings either - if they have the knowledge you need, that's who you need to talk to.
Heck, if the Council porter knows the score, cultivate him/her!

Because the name of the game is finding the knowledge or "in" you need to achieve your ambition legally.
Nuggets of knowledge often crop up in unlikely places.



Best of luck and maybe you'll post back here to let us know how you get on.
Also to tell us where - if anywhere - you found the information you needed for this.
AAM is operating a free public resource and I'd like to see it grow for everyone's benefit.

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon                               as a defence or support - in and of itself  -         should       legal        action    be      taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in                               Real Life with rights to inspect and issue        reports    on     the         matters    at      hand.


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