# Homeowners have to pay management charge



## kevinc (3 Jan 2020)

[broken link removed]

Seems mad that the 6 house owners have to pay the management fee. I know its becoming more normal but still mad.


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## Easel (3 Jan 2020)

Why do you think it's mad? Who do you think should pay it?


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## RedOnion (3 Jan 2020)

kevinc said:


> [broken link removed]
> 
> Seems mad that the 6 house owners have to pay the management fee. I know its becoming more normal but still mad.


Who else would pay it? Someone who isn't benefitting from it?


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## Zenith63 (3 Jan 2020)

It looks like there are common areas, like the underground carpark, an OMC seems like a good way to ensure these are properly maintained to me? Assuming the OMC is properly handed over to the owners, then this really shouldn’t be a big deal and the annual fee is likely to be very small.


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## so-crates (3 Jan 2020)

It is a single structure containing a mix of different sized individual properties. The "house"s are not separate standalone structures. The whole building is managed, why should the "house" owners(? - I suspect everyone will actually be leaseholders actually) benefit at the expense of the "apartment" owners? Essentially these are all apartments just some of them are rather large, multi-level apartments.


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## kevinc (3 Jan 2020)

Zenith63 said:


> It looks like there are common areas, like the underground carpark, an OMC seems like a good way to ensure these are properly maintained to me? Assuming the OMC is properly handed over to the owners, then this really shouldn’t be a big deal and the annual fee is likely to be very small.


€800 annual fee is the equivalent to €80,000 extra on the purchase price. That's the way people should think about it. I think people should avoid houses with management's charges where possible (and consequently avoid common areas that can't be taken over by the council.)

Basically the house owners are on the hook for the sinking fund for the apartments. Plenty of other developments like this in dublin pulling a a similar scam with houses and apartments are both paying management changes.


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## Blackrock1 (3 Jan 2020)

A lot of new estates are private , it was a condition of planning so there are mgt fees


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## Palerider (3 Jan 2020)

kevinc said:


> [broken link removed]
> 
> Seems mad that the 6 house owners have to pay the management fee. I know its becoming more normal but still mad.



It is far from mad, these fees take care of insurance, common areas, grass cutting and disposal, cleaning of common areas etc, don't buy there if you don't like it but if you do then pay the charges, they keep values up for everyone in the development.


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## kevinc (4 Jan 2020)

Palerider said:


> It is far from mad, these fees take care of insurance, common areas, grass cutting and disposal, cleaning of common areas etc, don't buy there if you don't like it but if you do then pay the charges, they keep values up for everyone in the development.



I never will.
For a house: common areas ie parkland and grass cutting should be the responsibility of the council and always was. Insurance for 3rd party liability on common areas are also usually council responsibility. So the management charge is really a subsidy for the apartment owners as clearly they have genuine common areas eg halls, common roof, underground car park maintenance etc.

or have i missed something?


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## RedOnion (4 Jan 2020)

kevinc said:


> So the management charge is really a subsidy for the apartment owners as clearly they have genuine common areas eg halls, common roof, underground car park maintenance etc.



In the example above, are the underground spaces not used by the house owners?
Are you familiar with the development?


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## llgon (4 Jan 2020)

so-crates said:


> Essentially these are all apartments just some of them are rather large, multi-level apartments.



Agreed, looking at the photo of the front of the building it's difficult to see how any of the units can be described as houses. 



kevinc said:


> So the management charge is really a subsidy for the apartment owners as clearly they have genuine common areas eg halls, common roof, underground car park maintenance etc.
> 
> or have i missed something?



As well as the underground spaces that RedOnion has mentioned I would guess that the Management Company are responsible for the roof and external walls of the whole building.


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## cremeegg (4 Jan 2020)

kevinc said:


> €800 annual fee is the equivalent to €80,000 extra on the purchase price.



Interesting, where are you getting that figure of €80,000 from. I think it is quite wrong.


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## kevinc (12 Jan 2020)

cremeegg said:


> Interesting, where are you getting that figure of €80,000 from. I think it is quite wrong.



You'd need to lodge €80k in the bank earning 1% interest a year (and you cant even get that now) to pay the €800 management charge "forever."

when you buy the freehold you buy "forever"

So €800pa is equivalent to €80k extra on the property price. ie €700k plus €800pa is almost equivalent to €780k and no man charge.


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## kevinc (12 Jan 2020)

RedOnion said:


> In the example above, are the underground spaces not used by the house owners?
> Are you familiar with the development?


No, not familiar. Just have a problem with the idea of management charges on "houses" and/or green areas.


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## RedOnion (12 Jan 2020)

kevinc said:


> No, not familiar. Just have a problem with the idea of management charges on "houses" and/or green areas.


I did wonder if you had even seen them when you were talking about green areas... 

It's a really bad example to have a discussion about management fees on 'houses'. These share a roof area with the apartments. Common underground car park. All properties have an external storage unit. Shared outdoor lighting. Etc.

Have a look for a better example if you'd like a discussion.


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## cremeegg (12 Jan 2020)

kevinc said:


> You'd need to lodge €80k in the bank earning 1% interest a year (and you cant even get that now) to pay the €800 management charge "forever."
> 
> when you buy the freehold you buy "forever"
> 
> So €800pa is equivalent to €80k extra on the property price. ie €700k plus €800pa is almost equivalent to €780k and no man charge.


Apologies. You are correct.


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## Leo (13 Jan 2020)

kevinc said:


> when you buy the freehold you buy "forever"



Yes, but on the flip-side, when you buy free-hold you also take on all maintenance costs.


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## kevinc (13 Jan 2020)

RedOnion said:


> I did wonder if you had even seen them when you were talking about green areas...
> 
> It's a really bad example to have a discussion about management fees on 'houses'. These share a roof area with the apartments. Common underground car park. All properties have an external storage unit. Shared outdoor lighting. Etc.
> 
> Have a look for a better example if you'd like a discussion.



Knockrabo?  Fairways? Farmleigh Park? All have houses with a hefty management charge. Looks like all you get in return in the grass cut (and technically insurance on the private common areas). The bins get collected in Knockrabo, but they increased the man charge by 200 to cover that.


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## kevinc (13 Jan 2020)

Leo said:


> Yes, but on the flip-side, when you buy free-hold you also take on all maintenance costs.


you take on most maintenance costs with these houses with management charges too? I just don't like man charges ( as you can tell!).


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## Leo (14 Jan 2020)

kevinc said:


> you take on most maintenance costs with these houses with management charges too? I just don't like man charges ( as you can tell!).



That's fair enough, it's up to any prospective owner to evaluate whether the upkeep and maintenance covered by the management charge is worth it. Some developments likely offer better value than others. I haven't seen enough information on the extent of the services or level of the charges for this development to have any sense of value. 

Private developments where houses fund an OMC are nothing new, in developments such as this one where there is shared underground parking, it is the only solution as a local authority will never take those in charge.


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## RedOnion (14 Jan 2020)

Firstly, I agree with the overall view that you shouldn't be paying a management fee and getting nothing in return, however none of the estates you've mentioned are your typical estate of 3 bed semi-detached houses, with a small green area.


kevinc said:


> Knockrabo? Fairways? Farmleigh Park? All have houses with a hefty management charge.


I'm not familiar with all of these, but doesn't Knockrabo have 'facilities' available to residents that need to be paid for? A gym, library, coffee shop? I've never been in around it (although in familiar with the site from before it was developed), but I got the impression that the grounds would take a bit more upkeep than the council sending in a contractor for a few hours to cut the grass?

Fairways - essentially a private 6 acre park to be maintained. Plus shared parking spaces.

Farmleigh Park. The one built at peak Celtic tiger? You think the council are going to maintain those acres of paved driveway, the fountains, the entrance gates, etc?

When a developer pitches something as being better than your typical council managed estate, then someone's got to pay for the upkeep of that standard. The council aren't going to take it on, nor should they.


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## kevinc (14 Jan 2020)

RedOnion said:


> I'm not familiar with all of these, but doesn't Knockrabo have 'facilities' available to residents that need to be paid for? A gym, library, coffee shop? I've never been in around it (although in familiar with the site from before it was developed), but I got the impression that the grounds would take a bit more upkeep than the council sending in a contractor for a few hours to cut the grass?



I'm not sure if those facilities have actually been built yet, and whether the change will increase if they are built.



RedOnion said:


> Fairways - essentially a private 6 acre park to be maintained. Plus shared parking spaces.


Didnt the council already take over the park there? So houses paying management charge for what exactly?



RedOnion said:


> Farmleigh Park. The one built at peak Celtic tiger? You think the council are going to maintain those acres of paved driveway, the fountains, the entrance gates, etc?


So, an extra 600 pa ( 60k) for a few fountains. The council should look after roads/footpaths. I'm not aware of any gates that open/close there. 



RedOnion said:


> When a developer pitches something as being better than your typical council managed estate, then someone's got to pay for the upkeep of that standard. The council aren't going to take it on, nor should they.


Seems very overpriced for the supposed services.


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## Leo (15 Jan 2020)

kevinc said:


> Seems very overpriced for the supposed services.



So don't buy there. Those choosing to buy into these developments will get their say on value for money via their OMC.


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