# New State Savings 4 Year "Solidarity Bond" Term Deposit



## Lightning

Details are starting to emerge about the new NTMA/An Post, 4 year term deposit product, which will be called, "Four Year Solidarity Bond". 

It looks like it will pay 4.10% AER Gross subject to DIRT. 

According to The Sunday Tribune:



> It will carry the same terms as the exiting 10 year bond. It is expected to be priced at the same rate as it's 10 year equivalent, which is returning *4.1% before DIRT.*





> Full detail will be announced by the NTMA in January.



(There are many other threads on this forum discussing the safety of NTMA products, which are worth reading).


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## camlin90

> It will carry the same terms as the exiting 10 year bond. It is expected  to be priced at the same rate as it's 10 year equivalent, which is  returning *4.1% before DIRT.*


*

*Doesn't sound right - 10 year NSB is paying the equivalent of 5.43% before DIRT at present.

4.1% net I presume?... which would be a good deal but the other bonds would have to be re-priced.

Was thinking of throwing something into the 3 year bond - but if the above article is right, need to get in now before the rates drop - decisions decisions


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## Lightning

Yeah, it is far from clear. We will have to wait and see what the NTMA announce in January.


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## theresa1

I'm closing my AIB Direct 1 year reward fixed rate a/c and thinking of opening a 4 year Bond as i will have about €140,000 and this is over the €120,000  so i cant go with cert or 3 year bond. I also have a premium demand and easy access reward account I will probably close and may put more into the 4 year bond or go with a cert?


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## mcriot29

Old post


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## theresa1

Repayment instructions - state savings account,external bank account or cheque. I would be interested to hear what people went for and why?


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## Lightning

External current account rather than another State Savings account. After 4 years it prevents you forgetting about the deposit by receiving the lump sum back!


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## theresa1

CiaranT said:


> External current account rather than another State Savings account. After 4 years it prevents you forgetting about the deposit by receiving the lump sum back!



Might go with the cheque option.


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## The Ghoul

I have recently purchased a 4 year Solidarity Bond with 20k. It was a choice between this or prize bonds. I didn't consider the 10 year Solidarity Bond and I can't buy any additional savings bonds or certs which I think are the best State Savings products.

I expect savers and investors (aka the "rich" ) to be hit hard in December's budget. If DIRT increases again most of the State Savings products are at least partly or fully protected from this.


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## theresa1

Would love to hear what repayment instruction you choose and why?


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## jpd

What makes you think they won't tax State saving accounts?


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## The Ghoul

I didn't fill in section 6 or 7 of the form - I presume that this means they wil open a "linked State Savings account" and pay my interest into that.

The repayment options seem like much of a muchness to me, I don't really see why someone would pick one over the other.


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## Eithneangela

+1. Any saver in State Bonds is going to be hit in the budget - maybe by the removal of Dirt free interest or something like that. It's just wise to be cautious about moving big money around the State sector before the Dec budget.


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## The Ghoul

Eithneangela said:


> +1. Any saver in State Bonds is going to be hit in the budget - maybe by the removal of Dirt free interest or something like that.


Highly unlikely in my view. My thoughts here
http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showpost.php?p=1290034&postcount=42

DIRT will likely increase, it is an easy target and any increase will slightly affect existing solidarity bonds as while the bonus is tax free, the "coupon" is subject to DIRT.


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## Lightning

Eithneangela said:


> +1. Any saver in State Bonds is going to be hit in the budget - maybe by the removal of Dirt free interest or something like that.



As The Ghoul said, that is very unlikely.

The NTMA are pushing State Savings products via heavy advertising campaigns at the moment. The state wants more of the national debt to be financed from domestic sources to help try and keep yields low. 

The government/NTMA wont want to dis-encourage domestic financing of the national debt.


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## theresa1

The Evening Herald on Monday had a large advert for State Savings and I have heard plenty of radio ads.


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## jpd

Maybe I'm being overly cynical but a big push to collect State Savings before the budget, including products with a fixed term of 3-4 years, and the budget has to reduce the deficit by € 3.5 billion .....


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## Lightning

theresa1 said:


> The Evening Herald on Monday had a large advert for State Savings and I have heard plenty of radio ads.



Yeah, huge advertising campaign via The Irish Times in recent weeks as well. The NTMA are really pushing domestic investment in our national debt.


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## The Ghoul

I was just looking at how much is in NTMA State Savings.
Dec 2010: 12,680 million
Dec 2011: 14,063 million
Jun 2012: 14,904 million

So, an increase of 841 million in the first 6 months of this year after an increase of 1383 million in the whole of 2011.

Also, the total has was 7,021 million in 2007 and 9,287 million in 2009.


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## kennyb3

The Ghoul said:


> I was just looking at how much is in NTMA State Savings.
> Dec 2010: 12,680 million
> Dec 2011: 14,063 million
> Jun 2012: 14,904 million
> 
> So, an increase of 841 million in the first 6 months of this year after an increase of 1383 million in the whole of 2011.
> 
> Also, the total has was 7,021 million in 2007 and 9,287 million in 2009.



Hardly surprising given the lower of deposit rate elsewhere. It's just money moving sidewards.


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## theresa1

CiaranT said:


> External current account rather than another State Savings account. After 4 years it prevents you forgetting about the deposit by receiving the lump sum back!




I was thinking cheque payment would be the best option - in say 2-3 years time you might have closed that external current account.


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## Lightning

theresa1 said:


> I was thinking cheque payment would be the best option - in say 2-3 years time you might have closed that external current account.



Just change the mandate if you close the current account.


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## theresa1

Also it can be paid into any kind of bank account,building society or credit union.


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## theresa1

The Deposit Account Plus would be a good option for NTMA to add to the form section 7. I think I'll go with the cheque option and then every year when I get my annual interest I can just hand it back in and get a new bond or lodge it to my bank account . Getting the cheque would save me possibly having to pay for a bank draft.


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## theresa1

The Ghoul said:


> I didn't fill in section 6 or 7 of the form - I presume that this means they wil open a "linked State Savings account" and pay my interest into that.
> 
> The repayment options seem like much of a muchness to me, I don't really see why someone would pick one over the other.




- I went with the cheque option in the end. I also opened my account in a local post office and i must say it was a very pleasant experience - they took photocopies of my passport,bank statement, tax credit statement and no messing about - issued receipt - told me welcome letter sent out in 10 days or so.


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## theresa1

Just to give people a 'timeline' on how the process went for me:-

Lodged cheque in local post office and took out 4 year Bond - 5 Nov 2012
Received 'welcome letter' in the post - 26 Nov 2012 (just over 3 weeks)

'Welcome letter' itself was dated - 20 Nov 2012

It included my personalised lodgement card which I can now use to purchase additional 4 year or 10 year Bonds or make lodgements to my new State Savings Account.

I wonder if They have still opened a State Savings Account for me when I choose the option of getting a cheque each year with my 1% interest. Maybe they have?

It's a pity you cant use the card to purchase 5 1/2 year certs or 3 year Bonds.


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## The Ghoul

I also got my card and welcome letter today (26th Nov) with the letter dated the 20th. I had lodged the money on 22nd Oct. 

I think the card will be convenient for buying more bonds. I wonder do you still have present ID and proof of address etc. when using the card.


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## theresa1

The Ghoul said:


> I also got my card and welcome letter today (26th Nov) with the letter dated the 20th. I had lodged the money on 22nd Oct.
> 
> I think the card will be convenient for buying more bonds. I wonder do you still have present ID and proof of address etc. when using the card.




No simply present yourself at a post office.


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## kennyb3

Won't start a new thread, am buying saving certs for the first time.

Just on the ID can I go to a post office and get it verified there? I don't have to send it off do I? 

If i do have to send it off will a copy do? (wary of sending passport/drivers licence via post).

Can I give the application form and cheque to them at the post office too or do these have to be sent?


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## The Ghoul

You can do everything in the post office. Bring your cheque/cash and your ID/documents to the counter, documents will be photocopied by the clerk. If you don't have the application already filled in you can do it there and then

If buying a new cert/bond I always do it in the post office as I'm not sure how I'd prove my ID etc. if applying by post.

When reinvesting I always do it by post as I don't have to provide ID. Reinvesting is a trivial process as NTMA State Savings will write to you in advance of the maturity date with a reinvestment form and a freepost envelope.


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## kennyb3

The Ghoul said:


> You can do everything in the post office. Bring your cheque/cash and your ID/documents to the counter, documents will be photocopied by the clerk. If you don't have the application already filled in you can do it there and then
> 
> If buying a new cert/bond I always do it in the post office as I'm not sure how I'd prove my ID etc. if applying by post.
> 
> When reinvesting I always do it by post as I don't have to provide ID. Reinvesting is a trivial process as NTMA State Savings will write to you in advance of the maturity date with a reinvestment form and a freepost envelope.



Perfect, thanks that covers everything.

Exactly what i was hoping to hear.


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## Ship_da_loot

Just bought some saving certs myself yesterday. I elected to go for the 3 year saving bonds. Any thoughts if this was a good idea or not? Pretty late now anyway if it was... LOL#

Pretty straight forward procedure in the Post Office. The clerk did mention that there's loads of people buying them. I'm presuming this is in responese to predicted DIRT rises and deposit rates falling?


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## theresa1

I took out a small 10 year bond today using my card  -time 1-2 minutes as the girl looked up my details - i didn't need to show ID as previously stated. I wasn't asked about my repayment option so i guess they will go with what i filled out for the 4 year bond i.e. in my case a cheque payment.

I wonder could they manage different repayment options for each type of bond - 4 or 10 year and even individual bonds?


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## The Ghoul

I've also started buying 10 year solidarity bonds with my state savings card and Visa debit card. Super easy process  I'm going to buy them after each salary payment (every 2 weeks) However I don't plan on keeping anymore than about 10% of my total savings in 10 year solidarity bonds.


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## theresa1

In my letter from State Savings dated November 2012 when I bought a 4 year bond it stated a statement will be issued in January and July each year which will show all of my holdings of the bond. Anybody get one of these recently or are they running late like with the issuing of the saving certs?


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## theresa1

"I wonder if They have still opened a State Savings Account for me when I choose the option of getting a cheque each year with my 1% interest. Maybe they have?"

To answer my own question - yes they have. Each time you purchase a 4 or 10 year bond the money goes into your State Savings Account and shows as a 'Receipt' and then on the same day it shows 'Transferred to your bond' and the particular bond number reference.

I finally got my statement yesterday showing my holdings of my bonds and a statement for my State Savings Account.


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## theresa1

Got my first Annual Statement of Account as at 28 May 2013 in the post today. Luckily I had stuck in another €3,000 on the same day 28 May beating the recent rate cut so it was not on the Annual Statement.

Very clear statement - it gives a maturity value based on the current principal amount remaining in the account until the maturity date and it states the maturity date for each certificate and 4 and 10 year solidarity bonds that i hold.


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## theresa1

theresa1 said:


> Just to give people a 'timeline' on how the process went for me:-
> 
> Lodged cheque in local post office and took out 4 year Bond - 5 Nov 2012
> Received 'welcome letter' in the post - 26 Nov 2012 (just over 3 weeks)
> 
> 'Welcome letter' itself was dated - 20 Nov 2012
> 
> It included my personalised lodgement card which I can now use to purchase additional 4 year or 10 year Bonds or make lodgements to my new State Savings Account.
> 
> I wonder if They have still opened a State Savings Account for me when I choose the option of getting a cheque each year with my 1% interest. Maybe they have?
> 
> It's a pity you cant use the card to purchase 5 1/2 year certs or 3 year Bonds.



- Got my cheque in the Post today for 1st years Interest - no delay.


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## theresa1

theresa1 said:


> I took out a small 10 year bond today using my card  -time 1-2 minutes as the girl looked up my details - i didn't need to show ID as previously stated. I wasn't asked about my repayment option so i guess they will go with what i filled out for the 4 year bond i.e. in my case a cheque payment.
> 
> I wonder could they manage different repayment options for each type of bond - 4 or 10 year and even individual bonds?




- Got a cheque in the post today for my 1% interest. I will be due another 7 cheques next year for various purchases of bonds in 2013.

This made me think another reason why they might have dropped the annual 1% interest might simply be down to the cost for post,issuing cheques etc. to people who requested this payment of method like me.


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## The Ghoul

Theresa, that could well be the case. I now have lots of SB bonds (the card encourages frequent purchases) with some worth as little as 50 euro. I have often thought that having lots of low value state savings accounts is inefficient from NTMAs point of view - lots of post, admin, forms, freepost envelopes for reinvestment for small amounts etc.

Also, I have 100k worth of prize bonds so win regularly (50 quid prizes which I put into SBs) and chose the option of getting a cheque. Every cheque comes with paper, a brochure etc.

I'm not sure what is happening with my annual SB interest - can't remember what I wrote on the form originally or what the arrangement is. I think it is going into an account but will have to look into how to get at it.


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## theresa1

I reckon it's going into the State Savings Account that was set up for you (AER 0.25%). I would ring them and get the balance and maybe change option of payment in future to external bank a/c or cheque payment. You will need to complete 'An Application for Repayment Form' to get the money which would be by cheque unless over the phone they can give you other options.


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## The Ghoul

Thanks theresa1, I will do that.


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## theresa1

I got two statements in the post today dated Feb 10, 2014.

Money lodged in Dec 2013 and Jan 2014.

"Since the introduction of the new issue 4 National Solidarity Bond, a single statement will be issued for each new purchase by way of acknowledgment."

"A full statement of your entire National Solidarity Holdings will be issued twice a year."


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## Ryan

If you open an account with a few thousand and add to it over the 4/10 years, odes each addition count as a new bond?


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## theresa1

Ryan said:


> If you open an account with a few thousand and add to it over the 4/10 years, odes each addition count as a new bond?




Minimum purchase is €50 but yes each time you make an individual lodgement you are buying a new individual bond. You are not adding to anything but opening a new bond each time with your new lodgement.


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## Ryan

Thats a bit of a nuisance. Say if you put in a monthly amount over the 4 years, you effectively have almost 50 different bonds.


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## theresa1

Anyone have any idea why the maximum direct debit payment per month is €1,000?


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## theresa1

Sorry but another question - anybody use An Post mybills.ie to purchase 4 or 10 year solidarity bonds?

The reason I ask this question is that I am fed up constantly taking out money from local ATM and then when I have say €3,000 in cash going along to my local post office to purchase a new bond.

If I use my visa debit the max is €1,500 and If I set up a direct debit i can only do €1,000 max per month.

I was thinking of getting a cheque book for the sole purpose of purchasing bonds but maybe i might try the mybills option with a bank account.


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## theresa1

I have used the one-off payment option on mybills.ie and it works well. Also I recently got my Annual Statement of Account. When i look around at the rates on offer I just keep sticking away more money into the 10 year bonds.


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## Daddy

I swee where your coming from but10 years a very long time and interest rate increases are more than likely starting sometime in 2015.


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## georged3rd

*Calculating interest*

To confirm, with the 10yr NSB at 2.66% AER on an initial investment of 55K does that equate to €1463 in interest every year? 55k * 0.0266
So after 10yrs the total value will be 55k + (1463*10) = 55k + 14,630 = €69,630? I must be going wrong somewhere here.


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## The Ghoul

georged3rd said:


> To confirm, with the 10yr NSB at 2.66% AER on an initial investment of 55K does that equate to €1463 in interest every year? 55k * 0.0266
> So after 10yrs the total value will be 55k + (1463*10) = 55k + 14,630 = €69,630? I must be going wrong somewhere here.


After 10 years, 55,000 put in the NSB would be worth 71,500, the initial amount plus 30%.

This works out at 2.66% AER. The reason you got only 69,630 is you don't seem to have compounded the interest (which you should if working from an AER figure)

Also, you need to leave the money in the full terms to get 2.66% AER. See page 2 of this document
http://www.statesavings.ie/Downloads/Brochure3.PDF


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## georged3rd

Thanks, appreciate the help. 

I found a compound interest calculator online confirming your figure also; http://www.moneychimp.com/calculator/compound_interest_calculator.htm

With the mybills.ie method of buying 4 or 10yr NSBs I assume that the account number you enter is your existing NTMA NSB account number (assuming you already have an NSB) and that any purchases (one-off or regular) are just grouped under that same account number but the start date is that of the payment date. Correct?

I assume that if you entered an account number for an older NSB issue (e.g. 2nd issue or 3rd, rather than the current 4th issue) even if the maturity date for that older NSB is not up yet, that it automatically gives you a 4th issue bond, right? To think otherwise would be wishful but just thought I'd check.


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## The Ghoul

That is correct, any purchases made now will be issue 4 and will mature 10 years from the date of purchase. There is no way to purchase issues 1, 2 and 3. The only way that I can see to acquire older issues is to inherit them - existing accounts can be transferred to a beneficiary without having to encash them.

I haven't use mybills.ie myself yet but it would be normal when buying State Savings products to be asked for an existing account number (if any) presumably to allow cross referencing and make things more efficient.


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## theresa1

Just got another Statement for My State Savings Account which lists my last 2 purchases for issue 3 and my interest repayments so far.

Any purchases for issue 4 will not be on this Statement and of course no annual interest as it does not apply for issue 4.


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## theresa1

I have used the one-off payment option on mybills.ie and it asks for your account number. This is actually your reference number which would be on the back of your personalised NSB card.

Each bond actually has it's own account number so your most important number is your reference number but State Savings also call this an account number sometimes which can cause confusion, another example it's on the direct debit mandate.


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## theresa1

I just got my Annual Statement of Account and it gives Interest amounts from Issue 4 of the 10 year bond. It has a Issue column beside each bond giving it's number for the 10 year bonds but it does not have this for the 4 year bonds.

Can someone check your Statements. I previously had a statement sent out which did not mention 2 bond's. It seams like somebody uses an excel spreadsheet to put together your statements but does not always get it right - that's how it seams.


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## theresa1

theresa1 said:


> I'm closing my AIB Direct 1 year reward fixed rate a/c and thinking of opening a 4 year Bond as i will have about €140,000 and this is over the €120,000  so i cant go with cert or 3 year bond. I also have a premium demand and easy access reward account I will probably close and may put more into the 4 year bond or go with a cert?



I just got a letter in the Post as my 4 years is nearly up -as well as the yearly interest (no longer available with 4 and 10 year bonds) I'll be getting a maturity bonus of aprox. €16,000.

Actually wish now in hindsight I had gone with a 10 year bond -anyway I've done well so I cant complain. I'm now thinking a 5 year Cert maybe even go the 10 year bond this time but rate obviously not as attractive as before.

If I re-invest the €120,000 limit does not apply. Any thoughts?


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## dub_nerd

I have a four year maturing as well. Reinvesting it would make a couple of tenths of a percent more than I can get from a deposit account or Notice Saver with Rabo. At those rates I don't consider it worthwhile tying it up again for years.


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## messyleo

dub_nerd said:


> I have a four year maturing as well. Reinvesting it would make a couple of tenths of a percent more than I can get from a deposit account or Notice Saver with Rabo. At those rates I don't consider it worthwhile tying it up again for years.


 But state savings is tax free is it not, so it's actually a bit more than Rabo etc.


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## dub_nerd

Yes, as I said -- a couple of tenths of a percent more.


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## messyleo

dub_nerd said:


> Yes, as I said -- a couple of tenths of a percent more.



Apologies, I just checked and didn't realise the 4 year was only 0.5% apr - I knew the 5 year was 1% so assumed 4 year would only be a little less, and thus better than a lot of rates at the moment. Not sure why anyone would go for the 4 year option vs 5 year at double the interest rate.


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## dub_nerd

No worries. I expect it means the five year is probably due for a chop pretty soon.


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## boe

Off topic a little but you can now purchase the 5 years certs and 4 and 10 year bonds online from statesavings.ie. As long as you already have an account and have provided all the documentation, you are good to go. The only limit is with respect to the max you can withdraw from your bank account - €5k with AIB for example. You get your bond/cert in the post within a dew days.


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## theresa1

On maturity form I got it says purchase will not be taken into account when calculating your maximum holdings. If however using new funds you subsequently purchase or seek to purchase further products in the same issue, then the total held in that issue will be reckonable when calculating your maximum holdings.

4 year and 10 year bonds are now issue 6 so if I use my maturing total which is aprox. €163,000 and put it in a 4 year I wont be able to get any more 4 or 10 year bonds in issue 6. If i get a 5 year issue 22 then i could still get 4 and 10 year bonds? I hope someone get's my point. it's not very clear and when I phoned them the last time I hadn't a great experience.


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## The Ghoul

theresa1 said:


> On maturity form I got it says purchase will not be taken into account when calculating your maximum holdings. If however using new funds you subsequently purchase or seek to purchase further products in the same issue, then the total held in that issue will be reckonable when calculating your maximum holdings.
> 
> 4 year and 10 year bonds are now issue 6 so if I use my maturing total which is aprox. €163,000 and put it in a 4 year I wont be able to get any more 4 or 10 year bonds in issue 6. If i get a 5 year issue 22 then i could still get 4 and 10 year bonds? I hope someone get's my point. it's not very clear and when I phoned them the last time I hadn't a great experience.


I think I get your point you want to reinvest your 163k into a 5 year cert (normal limit 120k) even though the 163k is from a maturing 4 year bond. You can then buy a new 4 year bond with another 120k. I would say that yes, you can do this.

See part 1.3 (b) of the below document
https://www.statesavings.ie/Downloads/SCSpecificConditions.pdf


> 1.3 There is no limit on Savings Certificates in Issue 22 that are held as a result of:
> (a) transfers to you in accordance with condition 17 (Death of a Holder) of the General Terms and Conditions; and/or
> (b) investment by you of proceeds on the maturity of your other Products.


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## theresa1

That's helpful The Ghoul and would I be correct in saying that the 4 year bond and 10 year bond although both numbered issue 6 are separate so let's say I did go with a 4 year bond I could still do a 10 year bond for 120K?


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## The Ghoul

That's right - limit is 120k per product, per issue - 4 year and 10 year are different products.


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## theresa1

boe said:


> Off topic a little but you can now purchase the 5 years certs and 4 and 10 year bonds online from statesavings.ie. As long as you already have an account and have provided all the documentation, you are good to go. The only limit is with respect to the max you can withdraw from your bank account - €5k with AIB for example. You get your bond/cert in the post within a dew days.



- I just purchased some prize bonds -over €100 -it only gave me an option of paying via debit card which in my case would be a limit of €1,500. Nothing about paying via bank account?


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## boe

theresa1 said:


> - I just purchased some prize bonds -over €100 -it only gave me an option of paying via debit card which in my case would be a limit of €1,500. Nothing about paying via bank account?


I meant the max you can spend on your card rather than a bank transfer. AIB limit on debit card transactions is €5,000.


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## Lightning

Irish 2 year yields are now -0.5%. 

The NTMA say they keep rates in line with deposit rates and sovereign yields. 

The NTMA rates are, again, out of line with deposit rates and sovereign yields. 

Will the NTMA cut State Savings rates again?


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## The Ghoul

Fill yer boots 

I have around 120k in savings certs (17th issue) maturing in 2017/2018 hopefully I don't have to pay the NTMA to reinvest!


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## theresa1

theresa1 said:


> On maturity form I got it says purchase will not be taken into account when calculating your maximum holdings. If however using new funds you subsequently purchase or seek to purchase further products in the same issue, then the total held in that issue will be reckonable when calculating your maximum holdings.
> 
> 4 year and 10 year bonds are now issue 6 so if I use my maturing total which is aprox. €163,000 and put it in a 4 year I wont be able to get any more 4 or 10 year bonds in issue 6. If i get a 5 year issue 22 then i could still get 4 and 10 year bonds? I hope someone get's my point. it's not very clear and when I phoned them the last time I hadn't a great experience.



Well my 5 Year Savings Certificate is about to mature and I've got my maturity form and another big decision. 5,4 or even 3 years I'm looking at. 10 years is a no. Thoughts? Not interested in shares or J & T via Raisin Bank. Either way Inflation will probably eat up my interest. The 5 years flew in but the paperwork is just as bad.


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## Ryan

I want to move money from KBC into State Savings but having to lock it away for so long is putting me off. Eventually the money is a house deposit and I dint know when that opportunity will arise so would need to be able to access the money


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## NoRegretsCoyote

Ryan said:


> I want to move money from KBC into State Savings but having to lock it away for so long is putting me off. Eventually the money is a house deposit and I dint know when that opportunity will arise so would need to be able to access the money


You can access the money at any point you just forfeit most of the interest.

Have a look here.


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## Marc

We broke down the terms in each prospectus so that you can assess how much interest you’ll earn if you break each certificate type early.

Analysis here 









						How Do I Get The Best Return On My Savings? - Everlake
					

We strongly advocate that longer-term investments should be arranged via pensions and stock-market linked investment accounts.




					globalwealth.ie


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