# E6.75 for a glass of wine. Rip off?



## jake108 (17 Oct 2006)

I was in the newly renovated bar and restaurant in The Ardenode Hotel last week. A group of us were waiting for dinner and I went to the bar and ordered a club orange and a glass of white wine (Pinot Grigio). I was charged E9.25 for both drinks. E2.50 for the orange and E6.75 for the glass of wine. We all agreed that it was an absolute rip off and voiced our opinion to the bar manager. We then cancelled our table and went elsewhere. I've since spoken to several people who also agree that it is way to much for a glass of wine. (The bottle in question was E30). Isn't an average price E4.50 -E5.50??


----------



## ClubMan (17 Oct 2006)

*Re: E6.75 for a glass of wine. Rip off??*

As ever....

If the price list said €6.75 (whether one bothered to consult it or not beforehand) then there is no ripoff. A high price perhaps (depends on the wine, premises etc.) but not a ripoff. If you the price list said something else and you were being charged a higher price then it was a ripoff.

Simple really.


----------



## Guest124 (17 Oct 2006)

jake108 said:


> I was in the newly renovated bar and restaurant in The Ardenode Hotel last week. A group of us were waiting for dinner and I went to the bar and ordered a club orange and a glass of white wine (Pinot Grigio). I was charged E9.25 for both drinks. E2.50 for the orange and E6.75 for the glass of wine. We all agreed that it was an absolute rip off and voiced our opinion to the bar manager. We then cancelled our table and went elsewhere. I've since spoken to several people who also agree that it is way to much for a glass of wine. (The bottle in question was E30). Isn't an average price E4.50 -E5.50??


 
-I would call that a rip-off!


----------



## coleen (17 Oct 2006)

a glass of wine in the brehon hotel in killarney is 6.50 It is a 4* hotel but I thought it was expencive because the wine was not a top of the range one but as quoted already if that was the price on the price list you have no argument really.


----------



## ClubMan (17 Oct 2006)

BroadbandKen said:


> -I would call that a rip-off!


How so? I can see that some people might consider it a high price but unless the price charged does not match the price list which can be checked before making a purchase then it's not a ripoff. They could charge €100 for a glass of plonk and as long as they said so up front there is still not ripoff.


----------



## Guest124 (17 Oct 2006)

http://www.azcentral.com/home/wine/articles/0513singleglass0513.html


-above is a U.S. article but interesting none the less.

That Hotel should really put up it's price as by your logic once you are told up front the price you cant be ripped off!


----------



## ClubMan (18 Oct 2006)

BroadbandKen said:


> That Hotel should really put up it's price


Do you mean increase or display the price? The latter is a statutory requirement under [broken link removed]. 


> as by your logic once you are told up front the price you cant be ripped off!


 Precisely. If the price is displayed (as required under the legislation) then you can't claim to be ripped off if you decide of your own volition to purchase unless they charge a higher price. If you decide to do so without bothering to check the prices first then that's your own problem. Still no ripoff though.


----------



## Cowzer (18 Oct 2006)

ClubMan said:


> How so? I can see that some people might consider it a high price but unless the price charged does not match the price list which can be checked before making a purchase then it's not a ripoff. They could charge €100 for a glass of plonk and as long as they said so up front there is still not ripoff.


 
_*Of course*_ charging that amount for a glass of wine is a rip-off, by any sensible definition, the issue of whether or not you were wise enough to study the price list before ordering the wine is an entirely separate matter. Let's call a spade a spade and a rip-off a rip-off! We all know booze is mark-up heaven for restaurants and hotels, that's where the bulk of their profits come from (that and desserts, apparently!).

Well done for walking out, if a few more followed your example we might be ripped off a little less. And no, my name isn't E Hobbs


----------



## ClubMan (18 Oct 2006)

Cowzer said:


> _*Of course*_ charging that amount for a glass of wine is a rip-off, by any sensible definition


No it's not. It's a ripoff if the price was not displayed as required by law or was in excess of what was displayed. 


> the issue of whether or not you were wise enough to study the price list before ordering the wine is an entirely separate matter.


 No it's not! Anybody who enters into a contract to buy something without bothering to check the price first can't claim that they were ripped off when they are eventually charged a price that was clearly displayed for them to check in the first place.


> Let's call a spade a spade and a rip-off a rip-off!


 That's calling a spade a fork. To call a spade a spade we might call it a high price. Maybe.


> We all know booze is mark-up heaven for restaurants and hotels, that's where the bulk of their profits come from (that and desserts, apparently!).


 Totally irrelevant.


> Well done for walking out, if a few more followed your example we might be ripped off a little less. And no, my name isn't E Hobbs


 I agree. About the walking out bit of the prices were not acceptable to the punter in question. Not about the ripoff bit.


----------



## jdwex (18 Oct 2006)

jake108 said:


> a glass of white wine (Pinot Grigio). ....and E6.75 for the glass of wine. We all agreed that it was an absolute rip off and voiced our opinion to the bar manager.



Not enough information to say whether it was a rip off (or more accurately, bad value).


----------



## jake108 (18 Oct 2006)

jdwex said:


> Not enough information to say whether it was a rip off (or more accurately, bad value).


 
Apologies. When I said rip off I actually meant bad value. Even with the price on the menu I would still call it a rip off (bad value). We called the bar manager over (before even touching the wine) and voiced the fact that we thought it to be a crazy price for a glass of wine. He said he would pass it on to the owner. There were 6 of us booked in for dinner so we put our point across and left..never to return!


----------



## jake108 (18 Oct 2006)

Just reading back over Clubman's post. My God you really have a bee in your bonnet!! Why get so defensive with everyone? People are allowed an opinion!


----------



## orka (18 Oct 2006)

I think the issue with Clubman's comments is that he defines ripoff as trying to essentially steal money from you by charging more than a listed price whereas the vast majority of people define a ripoff as really bad value - 'Ripoff Ireland' generally refers to unnecessarily high prices, not charging more than list price, 'insurance is a ripoff' generally means that people consider the prices quoted to be unnecessarily high not that the insurance company charges you more than they quote. I'm not sure of the exact dictionary definition (not sure that there is one) but given the general acceptance of it meaning unnecessarily expensive, I think it is a bit pedantic of Clubman to wheel out 'what, you were charged more than the listed price?' every time someone tries to have a discussion of something being expensive.


----------



## bogwarrior (18 Oct 2006)

orka said:


> I think the issue with Clubman's comments is that he defines ripoff as trying to essentially steal money from you by charging more than a listed price whereas the vast majority of people define a ripoff as really bad value - 'Ripoff Ireland' generally refers to unnecessarily high prices, not charging more than list price, 'insurance is a ripoff' generally means that people consider the prices quoted to be unnecessarily high not that the insurance company charges you more than they quote. I'm not sure of the exact dictionary definition (not sure that there is one) but given the general acceptance of it meaning unnecessarily expensive, I think it is a bit pedantic of Clubman to wheel out 'what, you were charged more than the listed price?' every time someone tries to have a discussion of something being expensive.



yeah, I agree. In most contexts people use the phrase rip-off to mean 'bad value'.  I wouldn't consider a Ryanair flight advertised as costing 1 euro a rip-off, even though I know its really going to cost me at least 20euro when taxes and charges are added.  Is that a rip-off (charging above the advertised price), or does the small print and little asterix beside the price let ryanair off the hook?  I do consider a pub putting up the price of a pint by 50c on the weekend of a big sporting fixture or concert to be a rip-off, even if they do advertise the price change.  
Clubman is correct in the sense that if you think you're getting bad value, its up to you to complain, and to walk away if you're not satisfied -well done to the original poster in this regard.


----------



## ubiquitous (18 Oct 2006)

orka said:


> I... whereas the vast majority of people define a ripoff as really bad value ...



Are you sure that this is the case? Have you any evidence ? Its pretty easy in any discussion to cite "the vast majority" in support of one's position - its usually less easy to justify such sweeping statements. 

On the face of it, the strong success of the Irish luxury hotels sector in recent years would seem to indicate that places like the Brehon and the Ardenode are well justified in their pricing policies - the bottom line is that people are willing to pay the prices they charge. As the taximan says, you can't get fairer than that.


----------



## ubiquitous (18 Oct 2006)

orka said:


> I think it is a bit pedantic of Clubman to wheel out 'what, you were charged more than the listed price?' every time someone tries to have a discussion of something being expensive.



In fairness, Clubman's gripe seems to be about what he sees as inappropriate or careless use of the term "rip off". As far as I can see, the nub of his argument is that there is a big difference between something being expensive and something being a ripoff.


----------



## Taximan (18 Oct 2006)

To dissect the posters comment in such a riducusly anal way is worrying from an administrator IMO it adds nothing to the discussion and is juvenile. It was oblivious to people the point the poster was making.

Where are you getting your def of Rip-off? What you are describing is stealing IMO.

What % of people in Ireland today check a price list at a bar pre-ordering!


----------



## Ron Burgundy (18 Oct 2006)

*Re: E6.75 for a glass of wine. Rip off??*



ClubMan said:


> As ever....
> 
> If the price list said €6.75 (
> 
> ...


 
it should be but isn't always, i know of a number of venues that the prices are not listed on a wall as they should be by law or in the form of a menu either. 

i do agree it was a rather high price, but 3.35 for a diet coke in the four seasons ain't cheap either ( and there was no list of prices in the ballroom, which was open later than the main bar and therefore has a different licence, therefore seperate prices need to be listed )


----------



## Vanilla (18 Oct 2006)

> To dissect the posters comment in such a riducusly anal way is worrying from an administrator IMO it adds nothing to the discussion and is juvenile. It was oblivious to people the point the poster was making.


 
I think your point stands more chance of distracting people from the OP's main point because of the poor spelling and, I'd imagine, wrong choice of words than ClubMans point!


----------



## Humpback (18 Oct 2006)

I love these threads. As usual on this kind of topic, I wholeheartedly agree with Clubman regarding the difference between high prices and rip offs. 



			
				jdwex   said:
			
		

> Not enough information to say whether it was a rip off (or more accurately, bad value).


 


			
				jake108 said:
			
		

> When I said rip off I actually meant bad value.


 
But you can't really say either whether it's good or bad value. You can make such a comment purely for yourself, but that can't be made as a generality.

What might be good value for me, might be expensive for you. If someone is charging €6.95 or whatever in the most opulent surroundings with amazing views of whereever and the best service in the world, it might be excellent value.

If a small hotel in the back of beyonds is slopping out the same wine and throwing it to you at your table while you're looking out the window at the bottle bank, then it's not.



			
				Ron Burgundy said:
			
		

> but 3.35 for a diet coke in the four seasons ain't cheap either ( and there was no list of prices in the ballroom, which was open later than the main bar and therefore has a different licence, therefore seperate prices need to be listed )


 
Did you report these illegal practices to the Office of Director Of Consumer Affairs? No point complaining here if you didn't take it up with the people who can actually do something about it.


----------



## Purple (18 Oct 2006)

jake108 said:


> I was in the newly renovated bar and restaurant in The Ardenode Hotel last week. A group of us were waiting for dinner and I went to the bar and ordered a club orange and a glass of white wine (Pinot Grigio). I was charged E9.25 for both drinks. E2.50 for the orange and E6.75 for the glass of wine. We all agreed that it was an absolute rip off and voiced our opinion to the bar manager. We then cancelled our table and went elsewhere. I've since spoken to several people who also agree that it is way to much for a glass of wine. (The bottle in question was E30). Isn't an average price E4.50 -E5.50??


I'd guess you'd get 6 glasses max from a bottle of Pinot Grigio. Therefore they make €40.50 on the bottle rather than €30. That's an extra €10.50. However the bottle might not be used so you would have to allow for wastage. There is also a labour cost in supplying wine by the glass, extra glasses used etc. So €6.75 per glass, while on the high side, is not a rip off (or an excessively high price).

In my opinion a major cause of what people think of as our “Rip-off” culture is the low prices that people see in Spain and Portugal. I have attached a list of minimum wage rates for some western countries below. The figures given are for gross monthly income, without overtime, for someone on the minimum wage. Therefore the disparity is greater than suggested below since out direct taxes are much lower than most northern European countries. The % of people on the minimum wage is also important (in Spain it’s over 10%) as is the distribution of wealth. 
What really matters as a measure of how expensive things are is purchasing power (Big Mac index, Starbucks coffee index etc). If you look at that then Ireland is not that expensive.
Personally I would rather live in a country that tries not to economically disenfranchise it’s poor, even if that means a glass of wine is a bit more expensive than it might be.

International comparison of monthly statutory national minimum wage rates, January 2003 Country 

 Luxembourg
 1,369		 260
 Netherlands
 1,249		 237
Belgium
 1,163		 221
France
 1,154		 219
UK
 1,105		 210
Ireland
 1,073		 204
USA
 877		 142
Spain
 526		 100
Portugal
 416		 79

Source: Eurostat. 

If you look at here you will see that we are ranked 8th out of 22 in a European study of real purchasing power. That would lead me to conclude that there is no real "Rip off" (or more correctly, profiteering) culture in Ireland. I agree with ClubMan’s definition of a rip off and think that the phrase is used far too loosely.


----------



## ashambles (18 Oct 2006)

Ahh pedantry - isn't it great...

"Rip-off" is just slang and as such the definition will be loose and subject to regional variations. 

http://www.answers.com/topic/rip-off

Lists various definitions from overpriced product to theft, some sources give only theft as their only definition.

But by judging from people posts here the current Irish usage agrees more with using the word as describing an overpriced product, and uses stronger words for more serious deception. 
With a slang word like this there's little point in telling everybody they're wrong - the current usage is always the correct usage even when you don't like it.


----------



## ClubMan (18 Oct 2006)

ubiquitous said:


> In fairness, Clubman's gripe seems to be about what he sees as inappropriate or careless use of the term "rip off". As far as I can see, the nub of his argument is that there is a big difference between something being expensive and something being a ripoff.


Precisely. No matter how often people do the _Alice in Wonderland _thing and try to redefine "ripoff" to mean "high prices" I will disagree. If some people find that pedantic then that's their problem not mine. They are free to overlook my posts (see my signature). I object to the personal attacks on me earlier in this thread and they are obviously in breach of the posting guidelines. As ever when I am attacked in this way I will leave it to another, more objective in the context, moderator to deal with them. Feel free to challenge my opinion just don't get personal.


----------



## ClubMan (18 Oct 2006)

ronan_d_john said:


> I love these threads.


I don't - but I'm like a moth to the flame and can't help myself. Ignorance and gross misuse of language just irks me I suppose.


----------



## ClubMan (18 Oct 2006)

Taximan said:


> To dissect the posters comment in such a riducusly anal way is worrying from an administrator IMO it adds nothing to the discussion and is juvenile.


And what do these personalised comments add to the discussion then? Personally I find name calling much more juvenile than somebody merely challenging others' opinions and setting out their own arguments.


----------



## Cahir (18 Oct 2006)

€6.75 isn't hugely expensive for a glass of wine, particularly in a hotel - although I'm not sure what part of the country the Ardenode Hotel is in so maybe it's seen as expensive for there.

Just be thankful you got a glass from a proper bottle instead of one of those crappy little quarter bottles.


----------



## ClubMan (18 Oct 2006)

*Re: E6.75 for a glass of wine. Rip off??*



Ron Burgundy said:


> it should be but isn't always, i know of a number of venues that the prices are not listed on a wall as they should be by law or in the form of a menu either.


Yes - lack of price lists on display is in breach of the law. Certainly in public bars - I'm not sure about private venues/ballrooms etc. Either way the lack of a price list should at least alert people that they might want to check the prices in advance of making a purchase. One way or another you either accept the price and make a purchase or reject it and go elsewhere. If you accept the price then there is no ripoff (unless you are missold something - e.g. given _Dutch Gold _when you actually ordered _Erdinger _or something like that). If you make a purchase without even checking the prices then that's your own problem.


----------



## bankrupt (18 Oct 2006)

ClubMan said:


> Precisely. No matter how often people do the _Alice in Wonderland _thing and try to redefine "ripoff" to mean "high prices" I will disagree. If some people find that pedantic then that's their problem not mine. They are free to overlook my posts (see my signature). I object to the personal attacks on me earlier in this thread and they are obviously in breach of the posting guidelines. As ever when I am attacked in this way I will leave it to another, more objective in the context, moderator to deal with them. Feel free to challenge my opinion just don't get personal.



I have always used the term "rip-off" to also mean "excessively expensive," i.e. not just in the sense of a scam or wholly illegal activity.  I regard the expression as slang so don't believe that it has a completely fixed meaning as ClubMan does.  Looking it up on a few websites reveals that others share this view too:

http://www.answers.com/topic/rip-off
http://www.usingenglish.com/reference/phrasal-verbs/rip+off.html

[broken link removed]

Wikipedia goes so far as to declare that a rip-off is not a scam (I disagree with this interpretation): 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rip-off

There are of course also plenty of sites that have the same narrow definition as ClubMan (i.e. a scam/illegal act).  Perhaps we need another term?


----------



## Sunny (18 Oct 2006)

Taximan said:


> To dissect the posters comment in such a riducusly anal way is worrying from an administrator IMO it adds nothing to the discussion and is juvenile. It was oblivious to people the point the poster was making.
> 
> Where are you getting your def of Rip-off? What you are describing is stealing IMO.
> 
> What % of people in Ireland today check a price list at a bar pre-ordering!


 
A taximan debating so called 'Rip Off Ireland'!   Alot of people consider taxi fares unfair especially lugguage and airport charges (not anymore I know) and would use the words 'rip off' to describe them. Is this fair use of the phrase? (Apologies if you are not actually a taximan!)

Clubman is right. There is no harm drawing attention to these places that charge higher than normal prices and then leaving it up to indivduals if they are willing to go there and pay it. If you do pay it, who can blame the business for charging that price.


----------



## ClubMan (18 Oct 2006)

ClubMan said:


> And what do these personalised comments add to the discussion then? Personally I find name calling much more juvenile than somebody merely challenging others' opinions and setting out their own arguments.


_Taximan _apologised to me by _PM _for the earlier personalised comments so I am happy to accept that and put it behind us.


----------



## daltonr (18 Oct 2006)

> Ignorance and gross misuse of language just irks me I suppose.


 

Clubman, your views on the definition of the word is widely known, and you've made this point repeatedly. Now for the sake of ending it once and for all, can you explain to everyone who disagrees with you... 

On what logical grounds can you argue against a particular usage of a word, when that use of the word is commonly accepted slang that virtually everyone (including you) understands.

I understand why you don't like the word, you want everyone to stick to one narrow meaning. Of course your meaning, like most other words originated in slang, and became popular and accepted. Perhaps we shouldn't be using Rip-off to describe exploitation, since that was once slang.

You also agrued against the use of the word scum to describe a certain portion of the population. This is also slang, and is as easily understood as any other word in the english language.

As a result of you focusing in on whether or not slang is acceptable in AAM threads, every argument about excessive charges turns into a thread about slang.

Can you accept that your views on slang and language constitute a letting off steam issue. You could start a Letting Of Steam thread about the use of slang, and let people who use slang in their common speach get on with discussing the things they want to discuss. You can even make your anti-slang thread a sticky if you want.

You are not going to single handedly roll back the evolution of the english language, and why should you be able to. A common and widely accepted, and documented use of the word Ripoff is excessively priced or poor value. Is fighting that really the most worthwhile use of your intelligence and energy?

Would you tolerate a normal AAM poster dragging every thread about a particular issue off onto the same tangent that has been rehashed again and again and again?

I'm sure there is a poll feature on this BBS.  Set up a poll to see if this new definition of rip-off is acceptable to the majority.

-Rd


----------



## ClubMan (18 Oct 2006)

daltonr said:


> Clubman, your views on the definition of the word is widely known, and you've made this point repeatedly. Now for the sake of ending it once and for all, can you explain to everyone who disagrees with you...
> 
> On what logical grounds can you argue against a particular usage of a word


See my repeated posts on this issue.


> You also agrued against the use of the word scum to describe a certain portion of the population.


Did I? When was that? I don't recall.


> As a result of you focusing in on whether or not slang is acceptable in AAM threads, every argument about excessive charges turns into a thread about slang.


When/where?


> Can you accept that your views on slang and language constitute a letting off steam issue.


Why are you diverting this thread about alleged ripoffs into one about my views on language?


> Would you tolerate a normal AAM poster dragging every thread about a particular issue off onto the same tangent that has been rehashed again and again and again?


See above.


> I'm sure there is a poll feature on this BBS.  Set up a poll to see if this new definition of rip-off is acceptable to the majority.


We (the moderators) deliberately decided early on after the move to _vBulletin _not to enable the poll feature.


----------



## ubiquitous (18 Oct 2006)

This thread has run its course. Time to close it??


----------



## daltonr (18 Oct 2006)

> This thread has run its course. Time to close it??

Agreed.  A couple of simple questions and the only answer was more questions.   You're not going to get anywhere with this thread.

-Rd


----------



## bankrupt (18 Oct 2006)

ClubMan said:


> See my repeated posts on this issue.



I am genuinely curious as to why you insist that "rip-off"  cannot also mean "over-priced."  I did do a search but have only found posts from you giving your definition rather than your reason for having such a rigid view.

I don't understand why you think differing definitions of this slang term can be considered "gross misuse of language?"

B.


----------



## car (18 Oct 2006)

I hear the renovated ardenode is quite celubrious, I may be wrong on this as its been a while since I was there, but AFAIR theres nowhere within walking distance for an alternative.  
If the prices are high because the hotelier is trying to get as much profit out of customers as possible, and his prices are exceeding a "value for money based on quality of surroundings" argument etc, then can he be adjudged to be "ripping off" the customers who are restricted from going elsewhere due to location and so have no alternative but to pay his prices if they want to drink wine?

This is despite the OP saying he did leave and go elsewhere.


----------



## orka (18 Oct 2006)

ubiquitous said:


> This thread has run its course. Time to close it??


 
But the thread as originally intended hasn't run its course. All the OP wanted was a discussion on whether 6.75 is expensive for a glass of wine (did anyone genuinely think it was about being overcharged compared to a list price?) and instead he had his english usage criticised. 
I don't know the hotel or where it is but I wouldn't consider E6.75 madly excessive and have happily paid more in the past. But fair play to the OP for talking with his feet (too slangish?) if he felt it was overpriced for the wine quality and the standard of the hotel.


----------



## ragazza (18 Oct 2006)

Gosh, to those who dont think that 6.75 is expensive for a glass of wine, I think I've lived in spain too long! Here you would get a bottle of very nice crianza for that price, and a reserva for not much more.

I was in a bar here last week with my brother, and ordered 3 glasses of wine. The bill came to E4.50 and my brother could not believe that that was the total price and not per glass!

If I drank wine at 6.75 a glass it would stick in my throat, knowing I could have similar quality in nice surroundings for a quarter of that here.


----------



## Cahir (18 Oct 2006)

ragazza said:


> Gosh, to those who dont think that 6.75 is expensive for a glass of wine, I think I've lived in spain too long! Here you would get a bottle of very nice crianza for that price, and a reserva for not much more.
> 
> I was in a bar here last week with my brother, and ordered 3 glasses of wine. The bill came to E4.50 and my brother could not believe that that was the total price and not per glass!
> 
> If I drank wine at 6.75 a glass it would stick in my throat, knowing I could have similar quality in nice surroundings for a quarter of that here.



True, but there's a huge excise duty on wine here and none in Spain, have a look here for 2005 figures


----------



## ragazza (18 Oct 2006)

Cahir said:


> True, but there's a huge excise duty on wine here and none in Spain, have a look here for 2005 figures


 
Yes, but at the end of the day what you personally are paying is much more expensive for exactly the same product! 
Whether the money is going to excise duty or mark-up in restaurants - the end result is that the product is (very much) more expensive, which is why I couldnt enjoy it the same way.


----------



## orka (18 Oct 2006)

I go to London a fair bit on business and the pub we go to there charges £4.50 or £5.50 (E6.50/E8) per glass depending on which of their wines you pick (choice of 4 in each of red and white which is an improvement on the white plonk/red plonk choice you get in a lot of places).


----------



## Swallows (18 Oct 2006)

No, it seems to be standard in hotels. I paid €8.50 for a glass of white wine and diet coke in Galway. I have also paid a similar amount at another hotel.I was mighty glad to get it as well I might add. You expect to pay for this at a hotel, after all they have to pay for staff to serve, and you will be enjoying it in nice surroundings. I would not be happy to get a cheap glass of wine at a good hotel.Where's the point in going out? buy in a bottle instead. They have overheads to pay.


----------



## Guest127 (18 Oct 2006)

there's only 23c difference tax on a bottle of red wine between the republic and Uk.in Cahirs post. not in the final price obviously, judging by the number shopping in newry already. pretty mean glasses if you got 6 out of a bottle. 5 decent ones.


----------



## Purple (19 Oct 2006)

ragazza said:


> Yes, but at the end of the day what you personally are paying is much more expensive for exactly the same product!
> Whether the money is going to excise duty or mark-up in restaurants - the end result is that the product is (very much) more expensive, which is why I couldnt enjoy it the same way.


 That's a meaningless comparison. A meal in a restaurant in Dar Es Salaam in Tanzania is cheaper than a meal in a restaurant in Geneva, so what? What matters is relatively how much of our disposable income does it cost.
The glass of wine in Spain may still be cheaper in real terms but a direct price comparison tells us nothing.


----------



## ragazza (19 Oct 2006)

Purple said:


> That's a meaningless comparison. A meal in a restaurant in Dar Es Salaam in Tanzania is cheaper than a meal in a restaurant in Geneva, so what? What matters is relatively how much of our disposable income does it cost.
> The glass of wine in Spain may still be cheaper in real terms but a direct price comparison tells us nothing.


 
Its your comparison which is absolutely meaningless.
The meal in Dar Es Salaam is not going to be exactly the same product as a meal in Geneva, obviously.
But a glass of wine , for example, 'Cune' is the exact same product whether it is in Spain or Ireland. Obviously there are shipping, excise costs etc, but for it to be 4 time the price in Ireland, does not denote good value to me.


----------



## Sunny (19 Oct 2006)

ragazza said:


> Its your comparison which is absolutely meaningless.
> The meal in Dar Es Salaam is not going to be exactly the same product as a meal in Geneva, obviously.
> But a glass of wine , for example, 'Cune' is the exact same product whether it is in Spain or Ireland. Obviously there are shipping, excise costs etc, but for it to be 4 time the price in Ireland, does not denote good value to me.


 
and the restaurant and wine shop in Ireland needs to pay rent, insurance, wages etc that are higher here than in Spain. And if they make a good margin on the prodcut after all those things by selling it at a price that someone is willing to pay, then good luck to them


----------



## Purple (19 Oct 2006)

ragazza said:


> Its your comparison which is absolutely meaningless.
> The meal in Dar Es Salaam is not going to be exactly the same product as a meal in Geneva, obviously.
> But a glass of wine , for example, 'Cune' is the exact same product whether it is in Spain or Ireland. Obviously there are shipping, excise costs etc, but for it to be 4 time the price in Ireland, does not denote good value to me.


I have has top class meals in Dar Es Salaam, although I have never been to Geneva. The point is that the selling price of the wine has to cover the overheads of the Hotel. If labour, rent, utilities, insurance etc is half the price in Spain then the multiple that the hotel in Ireland has to sell the glass of wine for a higher price. That’s not a rip-off it’s just a higher cost base economy. People who make comparisons like this do not understand business.


----------



## ragazza (19 Oct 2006)

I'm talking about percieved value - even though there are obviously other costs incurred with regard to buying a glass of wine in Ireland and the same glass of wine in spain - if I'm paying 4 times the price for the exact same product, it doesnt seem good value to me, thats all.

Also, even worse value when the identical bottle of wine is 3 times more expensive in an off-licence in Ireland than in an off-licence in spain.


----------



## michaelm (19 Oct 2006)

daltonr said:


> I understand why you don't like the word, you want everyone to stick to one narrow meaning.


There seems little profit in arguing this one daltonr.  You'll just have to accept that periodically some newbie will come trip-trapping their way onto AAM and unwittingly use the slang term 'rip-off' to describe perceived excessive pricing, said newbie will inevitably receive a pedantic lesson in the use of Queens English.


----------



## Megan (19 Oct 2006)

orka said:


> I go to London a fair bit on business and the pub we go to there charges £4.50 or £5.50 (E6.50/E8) per glass depending on which of their wines you pick (choice of 4 in each of red and white which is an improvement on the white plonk/red plonk choice you get in a lot of places).


I was in London in August and we went into a pub/restraunt for lunch in Serbiton. A glass of wine was £4.50 and if you bought two you could finish the bottle. It was a bit early in day for me to take them up on this offer.


----------



## daltonr (19 Oct 2006)

> You'll just have to accept that periodically some newbie will come trip-trapping their way onto AAM and unwittingly use the slang term 'rip-off' to describe perceived excessive pricing,


 
Well it's official.  'Family Guy' used the term Ripoff to describe excessive pricing.  And there is no higher authority than that.
-Episode: 8 Rules for buying my teenage daughter.

Finally an end to the nonsense.

-Rd


----------



## Purple (19 Oct 2006)

daltonr said:


> Well it's official.  'Family Guy' used the term Ripoff to describe excessive pricing.  And there is no higher authority than that.
> -Episode: 8 Rules for buying my teenage daughter.
> 
> Finally an end to the nonsense.
> ...



I agree. Why didn't you clear this up earlier?


----------



## daltonr (19 Oct 2006)

> I agree. Why didn't you clear this up earlier?


 
I'm sorry, I only saw the episode last night.   All hail Netflix.com
Funnily enough in the commentary the writers etc, made no mention of their controvercial stance on the issue.

-Rd


----------



## franmac (24 Oct 2006)

Did a bit of a pub crawl in Kilcock last week and visited three (there are five in the town) and the difference in the price of a round of three drinks was amazing concerning one particular place. 
Our first place charged 10euro for a pint of guinness. coca cola. small bottle red wine. Very nice pub with a couple of wide screens to watch the football
Next pub the same drinks cost 11.40 and the place was not as comfortable as the previous one and had very few people in it and no atmosphere (and no wonder)
The third one charged 10.15 and it has a very friendly/local atmosphere and very comfortable seating arrangements.

Some publicans are just pure greedy.


----------



## ClubMan (24 Oct 2006)

franmac said:


> Some publicans are just pure greedy.


And some emptors don't caveat.


----------



## Firefly (24 Oct 2006)

On this morning's Metro the food critic visited the Herbert Park Hotel where he was charged 6.50 for a pot of tea....would have expected breakfast for that!
Firefly.


----------



## BillK (24 Oct 2006)

Accuracy does not equal pedantry.


----------



## franmac (24 Oct 2006)

ClubMan said:


> And some emptors don't caveat.


 
Can you tell me what that means. I don't see two of those words used very often.


----------



## michaelm (25 Oct 2006)

BillK said:


> Accuracy does not equal pedantry.


Indeed.  Next you'll tell us that two positives can't make a negative, yeah right.


----------



## Purple (25 Oct 2006)

franmac said:


> Can you tell me what that means. I don't see two of those words used very often.



"Caveat emptor" means buyer beware. He's saying that not all buyers are wary of where and how they buy.


----------



## WaterWater (25 Oct 2006)

I went to one restaurant for lunch earlier this year on St.Stephens Green where the tables were all set with the nice linen tablecloth, good cutlery and two wine glasses on the table. Not feeling like a bottle of wine I ordered a glass. Well what a laugh! From the backroom came this small wine glass, the type we used to get free with a tenners worth of petrol back in the eighties. I was gobsmacked as the generous and sparkling glasses were whipped off the table and replaced with this thing that contained a couple of mouthfulls. Size matters!


----------



## ClubMan (25 Oct 2006)

Did you complain?


----------



## jake108 (25 Oct 2006)

Purple said:


> I'd guess you'd get 6 glasses max from a bottle of Pinot Grigio. Therefore they make €40.50 on the bottle rather than €30. That's an extra €10.50. However the bottle might not be used so you would have to allow for wastage. There is also a labour cost in supplying wine by the glass, extra glasses used etc. So €6.75 per glass, while on the high side, is not a rip off (or an excessively high price).
> 
> In my opinion a major cause of what people think of as our “Rip-off” culture is the low prices that people see in Spain and Portugal. I have attached a list of minimum wage rates for some western countries below. The figures given are for gross monthly income, without overtime, for someone on the minimum wage. Therefore the disparity is greater than suggested below since out direct taxes are much lower than most northern European countries. The % of people on the minimum wage is also important (in Spain it’s over 10%) as is the distribution of wealth.
> What really matters as a measure of how expensive things are is purchasing power (Big Mac index, Starbucks coffee index etc). If you look at that then Ireland is not that expensive.
> ...


 

This post will be deleted if not edited immediately! Sorry I asked!!


----------



## jake108 (25 Oct 2006)

orka said:


> But the thread as originally intended hasn't run its course. All the OP wanted was a discussion on whether 6.75 is expensive for a glass of wine (did anyone genuinely think it was about being overcharged compared to a list price?) and instead he had his english usage criticised.
> I don't know the hotel or where it is but I wouldn't consider E6.75 madly excessive and have happily paid more in the past. But fair play to the OP for talking with his feet (too slangish?) if he felt it was overpriced for the wine quality and the standard of the hotel.


 

Thank you Orka. I was just wondering what people thought.


----------



## ClubMan (26 Oct 2006)

jake108 said:


> This post will be deleted if not edited immediately! Sorry I asked!!


Don't worry - the truth doesn't really hurt that much.


----------



## ClubMan (26 Oct 2006)

orka said:


> But fair play to the OP for talking with his feet (too slangish?) if he felt it was overpriced for the wine quality and the standard of the hotel.


But he didn't! He didn't forego the purchase of the wine in question and was obviously prepared (whatever about being content) to pay €6.75 for it. Because that's exactly what he did. As far as I can see he did not apprise himself of the price in advance which is not a good idea and is obviously a recipe for (possibly bad) surprise when presented with the bill. Obviously checking price lists in a licensed premises seems like some sort of whacky idea to some people but maybe they just like surprises and/or moaning about being ripped off (sic.) or something. Fair enough he did forego eating a meal in the establishment which is another matter.


----------



## MHSpurs (26 Oct 2006)

Deffinite RIP OFF!

Dont see any argument there.


----------



## Purple (26 Oct 2006)

MHSpurs said:


> Dont see any argument there.


 Or is it that you don't see any that you agree with?


----------



## ClubMan (26 Oct 2006)

MHSpurs said:


> Deffinite RIP OFF!
> 
> Dont see any argument there.


None so blind as those who will not see...


----------



## WaterWater (26 Oct 2006)

Is there a standard size or measure of wine glass that is used in the industry? It seems you can order a pint or half pint of beer and a small or large glass of spirit that is regulated but when you order a glass of wine what is the measure that you should expect?


----------



## Purple (26 Oct 2006)

According to this  link it's 10g or 12.7mL. I don't know how a bar is meant to calculate this as alcohol levels in wine vary quite a bit.


----------



## jake108 (27 Oct 2006)

ClubMan said:


> But he didn't! He didn't forego the purchase of the wine in question and was obviously prepared (whatever about being content) to pay €6.75 for it. Because that's exactly what he did. As far as I can see he did not apprise himself of the price in advance which is not a good idea and is obviously a recipe for (possibly bad) surprise when presented with the bill. Obviously checking price lists in a licensed premises seems like some sort of whacky idea to some people but maybe they just like surprises and/or moaning about being ripped off (sic.) or something. Fair enough he did forego eating a meal in the establishment which is another matter.


 
Live and learn Clubman. This was a place that I would visit regularly and always with large groups of people. We all agreed that it would be our last visit. Last year I paid E21.50 for a Bacardi and Coke in the South of France. The place was fabulous. Great views, wonderful service. Basically I paid for the experience. I felt E6.75 for a glass of wine in a very AVERAGE hotel was not worth it. Just my opinion. And for the record, I feel the majority of Irish people would feel the term "rip-off" and "over-priced" have the same meaning. Think Eddie Hobbes and "Rip Off Republic"! It was about how we are being overcharged (ripped-off) for entertainment, wine, amongst others.


----------



## ClubMan (27 Oct 2006)

jake108 said:


> Last year I paid E21.50 for a Bacardi and Coke in the South of France.
> 
> ...
> 
> And for the record, I feel the majority of Irish people would feel the term "rip-off" and "over-priced" have the same meaning.


By that reasoning your _French _round of drinks was a rip-off too so?


----------



## ClubMan (27 Oct 2006)

jake108 said:


> This was a place that I would visit regularly and always with large groups of people.


And you were not au fait with the prices that they charged? Seems odd...


> Last year I paid E21.50 for a Bacardi and Coke in the South of France. The place was fabulous. Great views, wonderful service. Basically I paid for the experience.


Roughly how would you apportion the total price between drinks themselves, service, views, experience/ambiance in each case? 


> I felt E6.75 for a glass of wine in a very AVERAGE hotel was not worth it. Just my opinion.


Fair enough - not worth it in your opinion perhaps. But not a rip-off as you originally asked in the thread title. Especially since the prices were presumably clearly on display for you to read before deciding to make a purchase. Not bothering to do so and making a purchase on spec is your own decision and any surprise at the price that arises after the fact cannot be called a rip-off. If you didn't like the prices why didn't you decline when after the drinks were poured by before you paid over the money?


> And for the record, I feel the majority of Irish people would feel the term "rip-off" and "over-priced" have the same meaning.


Your _French _drink sounds like a rip-off judged by that criterion. 


> Think Eddie Hobbes and "Rip Off Republic"! It was about how we are being overcharged (ripped-off) for entertainment, wine, amongst others.


Not everybody buys into _EH's _world view.


----------



## jake108 (31 Oct 2006)

Ok Clubman. Get a life!!


----------



## Purple (31 Oct 2006)

jake108 said:


> Ok Clubman. Get a life!!



If you don't think that those posting here have a life why do you visit?


----------



## ClubMan (31 Oct 2006)

jake108 said:


> Ok Clubman. Get a life!!


You're not related to _Oscar Wilde _or _Dorothy Parker _by any chance?


----------

