# Unions on the run now.Would you now pass the picket?



## thedaras (23 Mar 2009)

Its been anounced that IMPACT have not got a mandate to go ahead with the proposed strike on March 30th.
It has also been said that they will try another tact to change the rules to allow the 65% vote to get a mandate to strike. fianna fail and lisbon come to mind
Turlough O Sullivan, is correct in saying that lots of workers understand that the last thing their companys need is this strike.
Are we finally getting some perspective. I feel it would be acceptable now to pass the picket as it was not voted for.
Can you imagine the airport closing down ,due to the proposed strike.what in the name of God will this achieve?
What message are the Union leaders giving to their members? How can a "Leader " suggest a strike ,when its clear that its the last thing we need.
Hopefully Union "leaders" will do the responsible thing.
Have these leaders taken a salary cut or freeze?
We badly need to protect our jobs and not put them in jeopardy.
OK,letting off steam over for the day


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## Mpsox (23 Mar 2009)

IBOA have also decided not to support it

[broken link removed]

I'm no lover of unions but I think it was good here to see someone spell out the reasons why the national strike was called in the first place (because I think a lot of people are under the mis-impression that it is a "general day of protest") and why they currently see no reason to join in.

Clearly seems to be some splits in ICTU around all of this


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## Ron Burgundy (23 Mar 2009)

i work in a public office and am not in a union. I kept my desk open during last thursdays 1 hr stopage. I had a number of customers who came in and crossed the picket line. Business and life goes on was the message i got from them.


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## Howitzer (23 Mar 2009)

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0323/partnership.html


> A spokesperson for IMPACT said that the vote did not necessarily mean that IMPACT members would not take part in Monday's strike.
> The union's executive will meet tomorrow to examine the rule requiring the two-thirds majority to see if the executive has any discretion to approve the action.


So much for democracy then. Why have a vote atall if that's what you're going to do?

Seen together with the GRA's actions on behalf of it's members I really do worry where this is leading.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/young-gardai--struggling-to--pay-mortgages-1682427.html


> He said it was a great source of anger to the GRA that the Government has not called on lending institutions to "give people a break, either by allowing them a way out of fixed rate payments or by writing off 20pc of the mortgages".
> The GRA has now stepped in to negotiate directly with lending institutions in a bid to alleviate the hardship being felt by its members.


A Garda representative body negotiating with an organistaion that it's members may be investigating for fraud - that's just not on.


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## dockingtrade (23 Mar 2009)

thedaras said:


> Have these leaders taken a salary cut or freeze?


 
Off topic but I have made this point several times and it is publically rarely brought up.

What Are the top union guys on? 120K plus per year 
How many boards to do the sit on (which would have overseen expenses and pay for executives)

And the big one for me Is when a certain siptu leader refers to FF or FG as right wing FF/FG fair enough but those with pictures of Jim Larkin on their wall etc, proclaims to be  democratic socialist left.... I d love to know what the founders of the union movements would think of union leaders on 6 figure salaries. I have no issue with with anyone earning huge money (when justified) and am not a supporter of the govt but how can they say one thing, and be on right wing executive pay!! If they belive in thier manifesto, they should be on avg industrial wage... with expenses.

Why arent the memebers of unions questioning this??


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## Ron Burgundy (23 Mar 2009)

because they are sheep. I raised it with members here in my office and no one could give me a proper answer on the salary of the tops guys and what they do for that money.


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## Purple (23 Mar 2009)

Congratulations to all union members who showed the integrity and patriotism to act in the best interests of the Irish people.
I hope the rest of us, unionised and non-unionised, and public and private sector, show the same maturity ad intelligence when we have to make decisions that may hurt us but are for the greater good


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## Sunny (23 Mar 2009)

Ron Burgundy said:


> because they are sheep. I raised it with members here in my office and no one could give me a proper answer on the salary of the tops guys and what they do for that money.


 
I have to agree. Its amazing the lack of scutiny that these Unions face from their members. I actually tried to find out some details but as a non-member it is impossible to get information. I am not sure what information the members get. For example I have obtained accounts from a couple of different unions through regulatory filings but since most if not all use holding companies, it is impossible to get a break down of expenditure. Are there any members out there who have access to their Trade Unions accounts?


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## dockingtrade (23 Mar 2009)

Ron Burgundy said:


> because they are sheep. I raised it with members here in my office and no one could give me a proper answer on the salary of the tops guys and what they do for that money.


 
stop paying the fees, form another union. Can ye have a vote of no confidence.


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## becky (23 Mar 2009)

Docking - I remember seeing the INO offical for a region being advertised at a General Manager salary level.  It didn't state which region though as a General Manager in Galway gets more than the GM in Limerick.  Depending on which region its anything from €70K - €150 pa. 

Some might say nice work if you can get it.


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## Ron Burgundy (23 Mar 2009)

dockingtrade said:


> stop paying the fees, form another union. Can ye have a vote of no confidence.


 
I'm not in the union so i couldn't care less where they waste their money. All they do is complain about having to take the day off or about the one hr stopages.......they vote for strike and then they don't want to do it ( only voted that wat cause others were )


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## dockingtrade (23 Mar 2009)

becky said:


> Docking - I remember seeing the INO offical for a region being advertised at a General Manager salary level. It didn't state which region though as a General Manager in Galway gets more than the GM in Limerick. Depending on which region its anything from €70K - €150 pa.
> 
> Some might say nice work if you can get it.


 
thats just for a region? F.. Hell.


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## becky (23 Mar 2009)

I honestly would not work for it myself but ya its a good enough wage.


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## Green (23 Mar 2009)

dockingtrade said:


> Off topic but I have made this point several times and it is publically rarely brought up.
> 
> What Are the top union guys on? 120K plus per year
> How many boards to do the sit on (which would have overseen expenses and pay for executives) *they should be on avg industrial wage*... with expenses.
> ...


 
Do you seriously think David Begg or Jack O'Connor would work for the average inductrial wage? I presume the members are not questioning this as they are happy with the remuneration that there officials are on.



Ron Burgundy said:


> because they are sheep. I raised it with members here in my office and no one could give me a proper answer on the salary of the tops guys and what they do for that money.


 
Again, did it occur to you that members are not questioning this as they are happy with the remuneration that their officials are on? 



becky said:


> Docking - I remember seeing the INO offical for a region being advertised at a General Manager salary level. It didn't state which region though as a General Manager in Galway gets more than the GM in Limerick. Depending on which region its anything from €70K - €150 pa.
> 
> Some might say nice work if you can get it.


 
Why do'nt you apply for the job so?


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## Green (23 Mar 2009)

dockingtrade said:


> stop paying the fees, form another union. Can ye have a vote of no confidence.


 
You cannot form another union as you would not get a negotiating licence...well technically i suppose you could but as no one would negotiate with you it wouldn't be much of a point.


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## Green (23 Mar 2009)

Ron Burgundy said:


> I'm not in the union so i couldn't care less where they waste their money.


 Really? but you went around the office asking members what the top guys in the union were on. Sounds like I guy who is interested to me...


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## Ron Burgundy (23 Mar 2009)

YOBR said:


> Do you seriously think David Begg or Jack O'Connor would work for the average inductrial wage? I presume the members are not questioning this as they are happy with the remuneration that there officials are on.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Yes but how can you be hapy if you don't know the figure ?? Ignorance is bliss........


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## Green (23 Mar 2009)

Sunny said:


> I have to agree. Its amazing the lack of scutiny that these Unions face from their members. I actually tried to find out some details but as a non-member it is impossible to get information.


 
I'm not surprised that you could not get information, why should unions give information to non members?


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## Green (23 Mar 2009)

Ron Burgundy said:


> Yes but how can you be hapy if you don't know the figure ?? Ignorance is bliss........


 
Becuase you can base your opinion on output and results.


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## Sunny (23 Mar 2009)

YOBR said:


> Becuase you can base your opinion on output and results.


 
So you don't know what the head of your union is paid?


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## Howitzer (23 Mar 2009)

YOBR said:


> You cannot form another union as you would not get a negotiating licence...well technically i suppose you could but as no one would negotiate with you it wouldn't be much of a point.


This isn't entirely correct. Being an official Union with a negotiating license is really just for show. Ultimately a Union represents a number of people. If that number is large enough, or their importance large enough, then employers, and Labour Courts, listen to them.

At some point there were no Unions - then there were Unions. These weren't offical Unions with licences and seats at the negotiating table with Bertie and the boys. They were common people who stood up for their rights.


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## Sunny (23 Mar 2009)

YOBR said:


> I'm not surprised that you could not get information, why should unions give information to non members?


 
Because these guys are trying to close the entire Country down and I want to know everything about them. I am not a member but their actions impact on me.


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## Ron Burgundy (23 Mar 2009)

YOBR said:


> Becuase you can base your opinion on output and results.


 
No you can't. How can you know if something or someone is value for money if you don't know the figure being paid to them is ???


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## Green (23 Mar 2009)

Sunny said:


> So you don't know what the head of your union is paid?


 
No, I didn't say that nor was I saying that payment was the only relevant issue. I was reacting to the incorrect inference that union members were "sheep" and "ignorant" being fleeced (to continue the agricultural theme) but a fat cat leadership who they slavishly followed.


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## dockingtrade (23 Mar 2009)

YOBR said:


> Do you seriously think David Begg or Jack O'Connor would work for the average inductrial wage?


 
Why not!!! These are democratic left wing socialists, walk the walk and all that. 

I would say union members who are losing their jobs and lower paid workers taking pay cuts are definitely not happy with the money these guys are on. Does the vote today tell you anything?? How would someone go about airing dissatisfaction with their leadership???


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## Green (23 Mar 2009)

Sunny said:


> Because these guys are trying to close the entire Country down and I want to know everything about them. I am not a member but their actions impact on me.


 
That is your opinion, which you are entlitled to but I would not see the unions as "trying to close the entire country down". And in that scenario I see not relevance in knowing what they are paid.


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## Howitzer (23 Mar 2009)

YOBR said:


> No, I didn't say that nor was I saying that payment was the only relevant issue. I was reacting to the incorrect inference that union members were "sheep" and "ignorant" being fleeced (to continue the agricultural theme) but a fat cat leadership who they slavishly followed.


I'll have to quote myself but when Union leaders ignore their own rules and the democratic wishes of their own members something isn't quite right.



Howitzer said:


> http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0323/partnership.html
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Green (23 Mar 2009)

Ron Burgundy said:


> No you can't. How can you know if something or someone is value for money if you don't know the figure being paid to them is ???


 
I'm not the one questioning value for money. For the reasons I said earlier.


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## dockingtrade (23 Mar 2009)

YOBR said:


> fat cat leadership


 
Are the union leaders in this country , when you add up expenses, salaries, directorships "FAT CATS". The whole fat cat culture needs to be scrutinized!! Union leaders fall under that!


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## Sunny (23 Mar 2009)

YOBR said:


> No, I didn't say that nor was I saying that payment was the only relevant issue. I was reacting to the incorrect inference that union members were "sheep" and "ignorant" being fleeced (to continue the agricultural theme) but a fat cat leadership who they slavishly followed.


 
So how much does your union leader get paid?


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## Green (23 Mar 2009)

dockingtrade said:


> Why not!!! These are democratic left wing socialists, walk the walk and all that.
> 
> I would say union members who are losing their jobs and lower paid workers taking pay cuts are definitely not happy with the money these guys are on. Does the vote today tell you anything?? How would someone go about airing dissatisfaction with their leadership???


 
Do you seriously expect someone to tak a job of head of ICTU for about 38k a year, seriously do you?


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## Ron Burgundy (23 Mar 2009)

Don't forget Union Leaders were mentioned in the recent report on Fás. They we also flying 1st class and wasting money left, right and centre with the top boys in Fás.


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## Green (23 Mar 2009)

Sunny said:


> So how much does your union leader get paid?


 
Commensurate with the activities and responsibilities of their job.


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## Sunny (23 Mar 2009)

YOBR said:


> Commensurate with the activities and responsibilities of their job.


 
 Ok then


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## dockingtrade (23 Mar 2009)

again .... What do they preach, of what political persuasion are they??? Who do they attack??

And I said avg Inds wage , plus expenses.


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## Green (23 Mar 2009)

Sunny said:


> Ok then


 
Reality is that I know the figure because I pay my subs. You have no right to know as you are not a member. As they say on American Express Card "membership has its priviligies!.


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## dockingtrade (23 Mar 2009)

YOBR, out of interest do you think they deserve 6 figures,  and are they doing a good job at the moment


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## Howitzer (23 Mar 2009)

YOBR said:


> Reality is that I know the figure because I pay my subs. You have no right to know as you are not a member. As they say on American Express Card "membership has its priviligies!.


Do you realise what you sound like? You're talking about Union membership. Workers rights, solidarity, representation - do these things mean nothing to you?


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## Ron Burgundy (23 Mar 2009)

YOBR said:


> Reality is that I know the figure because I pay my subs. You have no right to know as you are not a member. As they say on American Express Card "membership has its priviligies!.


 
But if i wanted to join a union have a not a right to know beforehand to see if its value for money and i figure i agree with in relation to what is done.

being paid 4 times the salary of those you work for is not on as far as i;m concerned.


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## Green (23 Mar 2009)

Howitzer said:


> Do you realise what you sound like? You're talking about Union membership. Workers rights, solidarity, representation - do these things mean nothing to you?


 
Yes. Why should you get something that I have to pay for? Would you go into a shop in the morning and buy a coffee and a paper and then turn around and give it to me? Unions provide services to their members.


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## Purple (23 Mar 2009)

Union Leaders pay;

David Begg	€136’000 (ICTU)
		  €36’000 (Aer Lingus, _paid into central union coffers_)
		  €?	(Central Bank)
		  €?	(ESRI)

Peter McLoone	€155’300 (IMPACT)

Jack O’Connor  €120,671 (SIPTU)

Feel free to add to the list. If anyone knows what boards they are on and how much that pays it would be good.

Source


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## Green (23 Mar 2009)

dockingtrade said:


> YOBR, out of interest do you think they deserve 6 figures, and are they doing a good job at the moment


 
I think you can infer from my earlier comments, my views on this.


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## Green (23 Mar 2009)

Purple said:


> If anyone knows what boards they are on and how much that pays it would be good.


 
But apart from informational purposes, what other purpose does it serve?


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## Ron Burgundy (23 Mar 2009)

YOBR said:


> Yes. Why should you get something that I have to pay for? Would you go into a shop in the morning and buy a coffee and a paper and then turn around and give it to me? *Unions provide services to their members.*


 
But is it value for money ??


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## Purple (23 Mar 2009)

YOBR said:


> But apart from informational purposes, what other purpose does it serve?


It lets us know what these jokers get as part of the golden circle that they belong to.


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## Ron Burgundy (23 Mar 2009)

YOBR said:


> But apart from informational purposes, what other purpose does it serve?


 
To show that they themselves are Fat Cats........how can you stand up for some one on 25k when you earn 155k yourself ???? where is the motivation ?? If they are social leaders take the 33k NIW.....


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## Howitzer (23 Mar 2009)

YOBR said:


> Howitzer said:
> 
> 
> > Do you realise what you sound like? You're talking about Union membership. Workers rights, solidarity, representation - do these things mean nothing to you?
> ...


Jim Larkin must be turning in his grave.

This is where we're at all right. Unions for which workers rights, solidarity and representation have no place.


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## Green (23 Mar 2009)

Ron Burgundy said:


> But is it value for money ??


 
What is value for money in this context? Invariably, we as individuals have different motivations, issues and interests in a union context. The question of whether individual members is satisfied with the service they receive is really a matter for each to consider.


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## Green (23 Mar 2009)

Howitzer said:


> Jim Larkin must be turning in his grave.


 
Why do you say that?


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## Green (23 Mar 2009)

Ron Burgundy said:


> To show that they themselves are Fat Cats........how can you stand up for some one on 25k when you earn 155k yourself ???? where is the motivation ?? If they are social leaders take the 33k NIW.....


 
Are you suggesting that you have to earn the same as the people you represent in order to understand them?


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## Ron Burgundy (23 Mar 2009)

YOBR said:


> What is value for money in this context? Invariably, we as individuals have different motivations, issues and interests in a union context. The question of whether individual members is satisfied with the service they receive is really a matter for each to consider.


 
X% of salary for what ?? That is the question i ask, what does the union do for the money you give them.

No one could give me a decent answer.

Eh its like insurance.

Eh sure eveyone else is in it.

Eh but i might need them some day.


BA ba ba ba sheep who don't have a clue why they give these people their money.

My mother lost her job a few years ago though the business she worked in burning down. The thoughts after it were that the union ( SIPTU ) were useless, pointless and a waste of money. That was something said by all the workers and in the end it was an local counciller that got them a proper settlement.


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## Green (23 Mar 2009)

Ron Burgundy said:


> To show that they themselves are Fat Cats........how can you stand up for some one on 25k when you earn 155k yourself ???? where is the motivation ?? If they are social leaders take the 33k NIW.....


 


Howitzer said:


> Jim Larkin must be turning in his grave.
> 
> This is where we're at all right. Unions for which workers rights, solidarity and representation have no place.


 
So you think you can enter any club without paying the membership. If that is the case, then maybe i'll pop into Total Fitness on the way home. i'm not a member but according to you that's ok... might pop into the Dail bar too, not a member either but sure what harm..


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## Ron Burgundy (23 Mar 2009)

YOBR said:


> Are you suggesting that you have to earn the same as the people you represent in order to understand them?


 
Why yes, how do i know the needs of someone on 25k when i earn 155k and live a different life with no finanical worries. Do you think that these guys have a clue how the average person lives when they get paid 4 or 5 times the average industrial wage ??


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## Sunny (23 Mar 2009)

YOBR said:


> So you think you can enter any club without paying the membership. If that is the case, then maybe i'll pop into Total Fitness on the way home. i'm not a member but according to you that's ok... might pop into the Dail bar too, not a member either but sure what harm..


 
Total Fitness isn't involved in negotiations on where to spend my taxes.


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## Sunny (23 Mar 2009)

Purple said:


> Union Leaders pay;
> 
> David Begg    €136’000 (ICTU)
> €36’000 (Aer Lingus, _paid into central union coffers_)
> ...


 
Thanks Purple. At least we now have a base. Wonder what the expenses look like!


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## Ron Burgundy (23 Mar 2009)

YOBR said:


> So you think you can enter any club without paying the membership. If that is the case, then maybe i'll pop into Total Fitness on the way home. i'm not a member but according to you that's ok... might pop into the Dail bar too, not a member either but sure what harm..


 
But before you sign up to total fitness you of course will ask what do i get for my money ? Also will you get a vote on hoe total fitness is run ???

Oh and the dail bar is nothing special.........


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## Sunny (23 Mar 2009)

Ron Burgundy said:


> But before you sign up to total fitness you of course will ask what do i get for my money ? Also will you get a vote on hoe total fitness is run ???
> 
> Oh and the dail bar is nothing special.........


 
But then if you get a vote, will total fitness try and discard that vote if you don't vote the way they want you to.


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## Purple (23 Mar 2009)

Sunny said:


> Thanks Purple. At least we now have a base. Wonder what the expenses look like!


Indeed, and what hotel/ hair salon/ travel and dining expenses did they incur when they were on the Polit Bureau over the last 10 years.


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## Green (23 Mar 2009)

Ron Burgundy said:


> That is the question i ask, what does the union do for the money you give them.
> 
> No one could give me a decent answer.


 
Why don't you look at their website and see what services they provide. The fact that people don't give you an answer that satisfies your individual burden of proof does not means that they are not satisfied with the services they recieve.


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## dockingtrade (23 Mar 2009)

dockingtrade said:


> Are the union leaders in this country , when you add up expenses, salaries, directorships "FAT CATS". The whole fat cat culture needs to be scrutinized!! Union leaders fall under that!


 
YOBR any comment on the fat cat culture and the union leader being part of this culture they are so critical off


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## Green (23 Mar 2009)

Ron Burgundy said:


> Why yes, how do i know the needs of someone on 25k when i earn 155k and live a different life with no finanical worries. Do you think that these guys have a clue how the average person lives when they get paid 4 or 5 times the average industrial wage ??


 
Did it ever occur to you that they might have started out at this level?


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## Green (23 Mar 2009)

Sunny said:


> Total Fitness isn't involved in negotiations on where to spend my taxes.


 
Neither are the unions...


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## Ron Burgundy (23 Mar 2009)

YOBR i haven't seen one comment here in favour of the unions.....shall we vote ( but if we lose we can always try something else )


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## Green (23 Mar 2009)

Ron Burgundy said:


> But before you sign up to total fitness you of course will ask what do i get for my money ? Also will you get a vote on hoe total fitness is run ???
> 
> Oh and the dail bar is nothing special.........


 
Yes, you can ask about value for money, but it might be different things to different people. No I wouldn't expect you get a vote.


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## Ron Burgundy (23 Mar 2009)

YOBR said:


> Neither are the unions...


 
Well they were before they let the talks collapse. Taxes are spent on public sector wages ??


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## Green (23 Mar 2009)

dockingtrade said:


> YOBR any comment on the fat cat culture and the union leader being part of this culture they are so critical off


 
Yes, and this is my last comment. 

You get what you voted for. The people of Ireland have voted consistently voted for the parties that introduced Social Partnership and in the last two elections voted in the party that brought in benchmarking


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## Green (23 Mar 2009)

Ron Burgundy said:


> Taxes are spent on public sector wages ??


 
Well you don't say! I didn't know that..


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## Ron Burgundy (23 Mar 2009)

But according it IMPACT if we don't like the results of a vote we can change the rules to suit ourselves


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## Purple (23 Mar 2009)

Sunny said:


> Total Fitness isn't involved in negotiations on where to spend my taxes.


And it doesn’t claim to have a social agenda to help the poor. 
The unions pushed for Benchmarking while forwarding an agenda which was against direct tax increases. This meant that Benchmarking had to be paid for through indirect taxes. Indirect taxes disproportionately affect the poor so in practice union policy was to  redistribute wealth upward from the poor to the middle classes (their members). At the same time they continued to spout their disingenuous clap-trap about helping the poor. What a bunch of complete and utter hypocrites.


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## dockingtrade (23 Mar 2009)

YOBR said:


> Yes, and this is my last comment.
> 
> You get what you voted for. The people of Ireland have voted consistently voted for the parties that introduced Social Partnership and in the last two elections voted in the party that brought in benchmarking


 

whats that got to do with fat cat union leaders


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## Green (23 Mar 2009)

dockingtrade said:


> whats that got to do with fat cat union leaders


 
Everything, I would say.


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## Green (23 Mar 2009)

Purple said:


> And it doesn’t claim to have a social agenda to help the poor.
> The unions pushed for Benchmarking while forwarding an agenda which was against direct tax increases. This meant that Benchmarking had to be paid for through indirect taxes. Indirect taxes disproportionately affect the poor so in practice union policy was to redistribute wealth upward from the poor to the middle classes (their members). At the same time they continued to spout their disingenuous clap-trap about helping the poor. What a bunch of complete and utter hypocrites.


 
Yes, but the people voted twice for benchmarking, they must have liked the idea.


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## Ron Burgundy (23 Mar 2009)

YOBR said:


> Yes, but the people voted twice for benchmarking, they must have liked the idea.


 
Some did.....mayde those who got it and does who would vote FF evenn if Bertie shot their mother

Now Mr. Begg go earn your wages.......


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## Purple (23 Mar 2009)

YOBR said:


> Yes, but the people voted twice for benchmarking, they must have liked the idea.



Maybe it was because the alternative also supported the Polit Bureau (Partnership) and would have included Joan Burton?

BTW, does anyone know if the Labour Party gets funding directly from the unions?


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## dockingtrade (23 Mar 2009)

YOBR said:


> Everything, I would say.


 
im lost on your responses to this.

Ok , do you see the top union leaders (left wing socialist) as FAT CATS?
when you add all their income up (considering the unemployment rate and state of the economy)


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## Green (23 Mar 2009)

Purple said:


> Maybe it was because the alternative also supported the Polit Bureau (Partnership) and would have included Joan Burton?


 
Come on, give the electorate some credit, maybe they just liked the idea, you know the way the Irish electorate like to scruitinise the detail in the various party political manifeto's rather than just vote along civil war lines, or are influenced by gombeens who canvass on local issues or who "sort out" planning for them. No, we have a sophisticated electorate who know their own minds, just look at all the intelligent comment on AAM for evidence


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## Green (23 Mar 2009)

dockingtrade said:


> im lost on your responses to this.
> 
> Ok , do you see the top union leaders (left wing socialist) as FAT CATS?
> when you add all their income up (considering the unemployment rate and state of the economy)


 
It very simple, the Irish people through their voting choices have copperfastened the social partnership process (and the positions of unions in it) over the last 20 years. The fat cats issue is a red herring..


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## Ron Burgundy (23 Mar 2009)

YOBR said:


> It very simple, the Irish people through their voting choices have copperfastened the social partnership process (and the positions of unions in it) over the last 20 years. *The fat cats issue is a red herring.*.


 

But its the union leaders saying the fat cats should pay. Is someone on 155k plus expenses one of the fat cats or salt of the earth working man ??

Did they take a pay cut ??


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## dockingtrade (23 Mar 2009)

YOBR said:


> The fat cats issue is a red herring..


 
Astonishing comment


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## Purple (23 Mar 2009)

YOBR said:


> It very simple, the Irish people through their voting choices have copperfastened the social partnership process (and the positions of unions in it) over the last 20 years. The fat cats issue is a red herring..



So you won't answer the question...
That leaves people free to draw their own conclusions


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## Sunny (23 Mar 2009)

YOBR said:


> It very simple, the Irish people through their voting choices have copperfastened the social partnership process (and the positions of unions in it) over the last 20 years. The fat cats issue is a red herring..


 
Not really since no politcial party came out against social partnership or benchmarking so just because you voted for FF doesn't mean you voted in favour of social partnership or benchmarking.


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## Green (23 Mar 2009)

Sunny said:


> Not really since no politcial party came out against social partnership or benchmarking


 
Regardless of what a political party thinks does not negate the citizens need to think! 

[/quote=Sunny;834564] so just because you voted for FF doesn't mean you voted in favour of social partnership or benchmarking.[/quote]

Actually, yes it does. However, I could agree that you might have been voting for FF for other reasons aside from benchmarking.


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## Purple (23 Mar 2009)

YOBR said:


> Sunny said:
> 
> 
> > so just because you voted for FF doesn't mean you voted in favour of social partnership or benchmarking.
> ...


Eh?


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## becky (23 Mar 2009)

Purple said:


> BTW, does anyone know if the Labour Party gets funding directly from the unions?


 

I have no offical source but do rememer someone telling me that a portion of my union sub goes to the ICTU.


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## Green (23 Mar 2009)

http://www.ictu.ie/about/affiliates.html

These are the unions affiliated to ICTU


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## room305 (23 Mar 2009)

Howitzer said:


> http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0323/partnership.html
> 
> So much for democracy then. Why have a vote at all if that's what you're going to do?



Worth remembering that Impact balloted for industrial action, not necessarily for a strike. I spoke to several members who despite voting yes, were not in favour of a strike, only some lesser form of industrial action.

I'd say if the ballot was for a strike the number voting in favour would have been much lower.


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## DonDub (24 Mar 2009)

thedaras said:


> Its been anounced that IMPACT have not got a mandate to go ahead with the proposed strike on March 30th.
> It has also been said that they will try another tact to change the rules to allow the 65% vote to get a mandate to strike. fianna fail and lisbon come to mind
> Turlough O Sullivan, is correct in saying that lots of workers understand that the last thing their companys need is this strike.
> Are we finally getting some perspective. I feel it would be acceptable now to pass the picket as it was not voted for.
> ...


 
Interesting to see that Impact are going to try and find a way around their own rules,to ensure that strike goes ahead - now that's what I call integrity...........as for leadership - most of the union top brass only respond to the 'he who shouts loudest'  types - usually  those who are most cushioned and protected. I have no doubt that they will continue to subvert the national interest - as that is what is deemed neccessary to do their bidding.

It is vomit inducing to observe the queue of Irish 'leaders' waiting to kick the majority of citizens where it hurts - Cowen et al in FF, the prime culprits in the making of this disaster. The so called social partners (or 'socialist' partners) - the champions of 'jobs and money for the few', at the expense of the many- no matter what the cost. 

We need an election now, to sweep this lot into oblivion. All we need is the Greens to have the moral courage to pull the plug, and the opposition to come up with a radical manifesto for a New Ireland. That's not too much to ask for.....is it........?


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## Shawady (24 Mar 2009)

I am a member of Impact and voted No on the ballot so would be very annoyed if the union tried to find some way around the 66% rule. I would most probably leave the union.
To be honest, I'm surprised as many as 65% voted yes as the vibe I got from a lot of my colleagues was they had no appetitie to strike.
Most people I talk to are very critical of the government but also of the union's performance in recent months and personally I am not impressed with McCloone.
I don't think an all out strike will look good internationally even though I have no faith in the current government and am going to use future elections to voice my protest.


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## Sunny (24 Mar 2009)

Shawady said:


> I am a member of Impact and voted No on the ballot so would be very annoyed if the union tried to find some way around the 66% rule. I would most probably leave the union.
> To be honest, I'm surprised as many as 65% voted yes as the vibe I got from a lot of my colleagues was they had no appetitie to strike.
> .


 
Most people who are against the strike probably just didn't vote. Wasn't the turnout around 50% or something so really less than 40% of all impact members voted for industrial action.
Problem now though is that will people cross a picket?


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## Caveat (24 Mar 2009)

Sunny said:


> Problem now though is that will people cross a picket?


 
Do you mean colleagues or the general public?

Personally, I would be delighted to pass pickets on this occasion. In fact I may just go out of my way to do so. Might even get an 'inflammatory' T-shirt printed.


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## Sunny (24 Mar 2009)

Caveat said:


> Do you mean colleagues or the general public?
> 
> Personally, I would be delighted to pass pickets on this occasion. In fact I may just go out of my way to do so. Might even get an 'inflammatory' T-shirt printed.


 
I mean colleagues. Fair play to you but I can understand why some people would be reluctant to cross one. Especially younger members of staff. 
Also I presume they don't get paid for the day if they go on strike?


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## Shawady (24 Mar 2009)

Sunny said:


> I mean colleagues. Fair play to you but I can understand why some people would be reluctant to cross one. Especially younger members of staff.
> Also I presume they don't get paid for the day if they go on strike?


 
As far as I know you don't get paid for the day if you strike but you also don't get paid if you take an annual leave day.
We were informed this when the CPSU strike was on last month. Because we were in a different union, it was ok to come into work and pass the picket but if people felt uncomfortable about that and took a day's leave, they would not be paid.


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## Shawady (24 Mar 2009)

Sunny said:


> Problem now though is that will people cross a picket?


 
If Impact press ahead and go ahead and strike I imagine there would be a lot of anger among people that voted No.


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## Caveat (24 Mar 2009)

Sunny said:


> Fair play to you but I can understand why some people would be reluctant to cross one. Especially younger members of staff.


 
Just to be clear - the proposed strike will not affect my workplace. I meant I was intending on calling into strike affected public offices and stirring it a bit!

Strikers won't be paid. Someone else was saying that strikers will only get an allowance from the union if the strike is 'protracted' - more than 3 days maybe?  This allowance is I think about €150 pw.


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## Sunny (24 Mar 2009)

Shawady said:


> If Impact press ahead and go ahead and strike I imagine there would be a lot of anger among people that voted No.


 
I agree so I am willing to bet that the Union will take the cowardly approach and while not officially calling for strike action, will strongly encourage people to strike. Could be quiet divisive for them if they are not careful.


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## Shawady (24 Mar 2009)

Sunny said:


> I agree so I am willing to bet that the Union will take the cowardly approach and while not officially calling for strike action, will strongly encourage people to strike. Could be quiet divisive for them if they are not careful.


 
There was a guy from ICTU on the 6 o clock news last night basically making that point; that if all other unions strike it would be expected of Impact members to also strike. It would make a mockery of the ballot and would reflect negatively on Impact.


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## jhegarty (24 Mar 2009)

I must get up early that day so I can cross a few pickets before work.


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## becky (24 Mar 2009)

Shawady said:


> As far as I know you don't get paid for the day if you strike


 
You should never get paid when you are not available for work as a result of industrial action.




Shawady said:


> you also don't get paid if you take an annual leave day.
> quote]
> 
> This is only true if you are a member of the union involved. If you are a non union member or a member of another union who is not in dispute the employer has no authority to deduct wages. If you are a member of the union and have next monday booked off for example your wages will be/should be deducted unless the union inform the employer otherwise.


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## Shawady (24 Mar 2009)

becky said:


> You should never get paid when you are not available for work as a result of industrial action.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## dockingtrade (24 Mar 2009)

no strike no pay problems


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## becky (24 Mar 2009)

Shawady said:


> becky said:
> 
> 
> > You should never get paid when you are not available for work as a result of industrial action.
> ...


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## Ron Burgundy (24 Mar 2009)

becky said:


> Shawady said:
> 
> 
> > Its seems that the employer was not approving the days leave here, so you would have been absent without leave and in this case it would be in order for the employer to deduct wages.
> ...


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## becky (24 Mar 2009)

Ron Burgundy said:


> becky said:
> 
> 
> > Indeed but if i go to my building and it is locked because service officers etc are off what am i to do......i made the effort and will expect my pay. I am not a union member ans will attend work.
> ...


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## Dreamerb (24 Mar 2009)

Ron Burgundy said:


> BUT i have a problem in that my wife is pregnant and her 1st scan is due on monday. I feel if no leave is sanctioned i will have to miss the scan or go awol.


This may depend on your personnel section, but I think many people would view that as "bona fide" leave because it's for a particular purpose on a pre-determined day that's not really in your control. If you booked time off a while ago, it should be straightforward - if not, they may look askance at it. Speak to line manager / personnel officer for clarification, and have a back up plan (maybe it's possible to compromise on a half day? At worst you will have to take unpaid leave, as just going awol is likely to be a disciplinary offence).

I agree with Becky on both fronts.


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## Ron Burgundy (24 Mar 2009)

Dreamerb said:


> Ron Burgundy said:
> 
> 
> > This may depend on your personnel section, but I think many people would view that as "bona fide" leave because it's for a particular purpose on a pre-determined day that's not really in your control. If you booked time off a while ago, it should be straightforward - if not, they may look askance at it. Speak to line manager / personnel officer for clarification, and have a back up plan (maybe it's possible to compromise on a half day? *At worst you will have to take unpaid leave, as just going awol is likely to be a disciplinary offence).[/*quote]
> ...


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## Dreamerb (24 Mar 2009)

If you're available for work - actually available, not hoping-you-can't-get-in-so-you-can-go-to-the-scan  - then you should be entitled to be paid for the day. I'd be rather surprised if there are no contingency arrangements to ensure the building is open, though not knowing where you work I've no idea what type of plans your organisation / Department has.

I can't see how access to your building would be in the direct control of the unions.


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## Ron Burgundy (24 Mar 2009)

If the members of staff who open up etc that is how the building would not be open.

I shall wait and see.


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## Dreamerb (24 Mar 2009)

Ron Burgundy said:


> If the members of staff who open up etc that is how the building would not be open.
> 
> I shall wait and see.


In the vast majority of organisations, there'd be keyholders at senior level who would be given the responsibility of opening up in such a situation. If that's your scan-attendance policy, I fear you may need to re-think .


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## bamboozle (24 Mar 2009)

Purple said:


> Congratulations to all union members who showed the integrity and patriotism to act in the best interests of the Irish people.
> I hope the rest of us, unionised and non-unionised, and public and private sector, show the same maturity ad intelligence when we have to make decisions that may hurt us but are for the greater good


 
+1...i hope union members show some perspective and keep Ireland open for business, I have international clients due to fly here on Monday...wont exactly be a good first impression


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## Ron Burgundy (24 Mar 2009)

bamboozle said:


> +1...i hope union members show some perspective and keep Ireland open for business, I have international clients due to fly here on Monday...*wont exactly be a good first impression*


 
Could be the last as well.......


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## Shawady (24 Mar 2009)

Ron, Will your scan be affected by the strike if it is a hospital?


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## Ron Burgundy (24 Mar 2009)

We have been told it won't but who knows.


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