# Ulster bank to write off shortfall in some agreed sale cases



## Bronte (27 Apr 2015)

They're going to write off debt for those who are eligible for social housing apparently.

2000 customers initially.

This is about time.  The sooner we get people sorted the sooner the country can get back on it's feet.


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## Brendan Burgess (27 Apr 2015)

Here is the press release: 

*Engagement is Key to Solving the Arrears Impasse*

*Fair Solutions to Keep Customers in their Homes*

Today (27th April 2015), Ulster Bank launched a new customer communication, specifically designed to help and to encourage customers in arrears on their home loan to engage with the Bank. Ulster Bank believes that the remaining people in home loan arrears who are not yet on an arrangement with their home loan provider, can be helped if they can be persuaded to engage. This set of commitments will be sent to Ulster Bank customers in arrears on their home loan (who are not already in an arrangement) to remind them how they can engage with Ulster Bank to stay in their home.

As well as a number of clear commitments reiterating how the bank has been and will continue to help the customer and treat them fairly, the easy-to-read leaflet reaffirms how customers can arrange an appointment over the phone or face-to-face and that Ulster Bank will help you at any stage – even on the day in court, should the customer decide that they want to engage at that point 

Ulster Bank employs 350 people, both in the field and in centres in Dublin and Edinburgh, who are highly experienced with ongoing training, to support customers. As a consequence of this support, the number of Ulster Bank customers in arrears of 90 days or more has decreased month on month for the past 25 months – a trend not seen elsewhere in the industry. Ulster Bank has helped 12,000 customers out of arrears and back to an up-to-date position on their home loan and an additional 10,000 customers are in arrangements. In the same period that these 22,000 customers were helped, only five personal insolvency proposals were vetoed by Ulster Bank due to the specific circumstances. These figures demonstrate that the Bank’s open and flexible approach is working.

There is a cost to living in a home, whether a home loan payment or rent. While the majority of Ulster Bank’s customers recognise this, some 2,000 customers neither contribute to their home loan nor discuss this issue with Ulster Bank despite efforts via letter, telephone and in person.  In these situations, the Bank has no choice but to pursue the legal route as a last resort.  However, the primary intent of this activity remains to encourage meaningful reengagement to help the customer. It is hoped that our commitments will help to reduce the numbers of customers in the legal process. 

Ulster Bank Chief Risk Officer, Stephen Bell said:

_“Ulster Bank’s primary objective has always been to help our customers in difficulty come to a fair, affordable solution which allows them to remain in their homes and the communities which they have chosen. We firmly believe that through engagement, a solution can be found for the vast majority of customers who are in arrears and we are trying to encourage this in every way we can._

_“For the 22,000 customers that have already come out of home loan arrears or are in an arrangement, these commitments are not new, but for those who are not reading the letters or answering the phone to our help, I appeal to them to engage with us.  We will not seek to repossess your home if you engage with us and we can agree a solution or outcome. We will also look sensitively at your expenditure to ensure that you maintain a reasonable standard of living. But if you do not engage, we have no choice but to go down the legal route. The choice rests with the customer but we want to make sure that they know how we could help them to stay in their home._

_“While we are seeing increases in repossessions through vacant and abandoned properties, we do not want to see an increase in forced repossessions. We hope that people in difficulty find our commitments to be clear, comforting and chose to accept our help. However, it is vital that our approach is fair for all customers – both those maintaining their home loans and those who are in difficulty. We encourage any customer in financial difficulty to engage with us as early as possible so that we can work together to find the right solution but also to know that it's never to late to make contact.”_


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## Brendan Burgess (27 Apr 2015)

Here is the leaflet they will be sending out


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## Bronte (27 Apr 2015)

Must say I'm very impressed with this.  Looks a very logical well thought out strategy.  And their figures on arrangments, they say, they are beating the industry norm.

BB you now have confirmation that 2000 customers of Ulster are paying zero.   It is those people who are causing the SVR's to remain high.  Not the only issue of course but it is important to point it out.

The core message is engage and they will endeavour to work out a solution.  What could be fairer than that.


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## Brendan Burgess (27 Apr 2015)

1) it's astonishing that 2,000 people have paid nothing in over two years and this is a goodish effort to get them to engage
2) The leaflet is too vague and could not be relied upon.

"We will work with you to agree a fair process".  All banks say that. It doesn't mean anything.  it's vague.  I have been campaigning for the lenders to agree how the shortfall will be dealt with as part of the agreement to sell or surrender the house. Only AIB does this at present.  And AIB specifies that very clearly. This might be what UB means, but it's not what they are saying. If you are dealing with any bank, you should not agree to the voluntary sale of your home, without a written agreement on how the shortfall will be dealt with. 

"We will not pursue the residual debt" needs to be clarified. That is very different from "We will write off the residual debt".  UB should clarify that they will write off the debt as part of the agreement to sell the home.


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## Gerry Canning (27 Apr 2015)

Strikes me
1. Ulster are now making this welcome effort  because Repo/Legal etc is such a slow runner in the Irish system.
2. Ulster pragmatically accept that this cohort of customers are not worth chasing for residual debt.
3. It appears that Ulster will be open to sensible solutions for everyone else (fingers crossed).I share Brendans concerns on (We will work with you) etc,
4. Other Banks (particularly BOI) will do the sums and if this Ulster effort costs Ulster less than Repo route, they too will take the least costly option for them.
5. Brontes comments on these 2000 keeping the SVR high is interesting.

We now have AIB & Ulster in the frame for sorting this , so come on the rest and see can we finally get Real Movement .


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## Delboy (27 Apr 2015)

At least it's something. I agree that anyone agreeing to forfeit a house should have the residual debt details spelled out well in advance of any final agreement. At the very least, it would speed things up. 
Lets just hope that any Government announcements in the coming days on Mortgage arrears don't scupper plans like this from the outset!


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## Brendan Burgess (27 Apr 2015)

What does "Qualify for social housing mean?" 

According to Citizens Information 

_*Eligibility*

To be regarded as eligible for social housing you must satisfy the income criteria.


You must also show that you do not have suitable alternative accommodation._


A single person (in Dublin, Cork or Galway)  has a net income threshold of €35,000 to qualify for social housing.

Does this mean that a single person earning under €49,000 gross will automatically have the shortfall written off?

Brendan


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## Gerry Canning (27 Apr 2015)

Yes Brendan,

That is what it must mean.

Bottom line seems to be that a pragmatic decision has been taken to move on these non paying accounts.
It gives a clear line to get rid of these acs versus costly litigation etc.

By inference, even people above that threshold will probably get realistic options (I hope!) and everyone gets closure.


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## michaelg (27 Apr 2015)

This could be a huge game changer, I'd happily surrender a property once i know the bank will not bother me any more.


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## Sarenco (27 Apr 2015)

I think it's fantastic to see that one of our major lenders is making such a public commitment to the adoption of a realistic and pragmatic approach to resolving this issue.  Hats off to Ulster Bank!

I just hope our Government doesn't introduce some new mechanism to further delay the resolution of this problem.


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## Sarenco (27 Apr 2015)

Some interesting comments from Mr Noonan on the Ulster Bank initiative and SVR rates.  Looks like we're getting some movement at long last.

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/...nders-to-discuss-mortgage-rate-cuts-1.2190683


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## 44brendan (27 Apr 2015)

Am I missing something here?? I've read both the Press Release and the Leaflet and neither make any reference to a agreement to W/O residual debt. Is there a 2nd release? Furthermore such an offer must be more restrictive than "appears on the tin". I.e. While a mortgage holder may meet the income threshold for Social Housing he/she /they could have substantial unencumbered assets.
Not wanting to throw cold water on anything but this headline offer appears to be overly simplistic!!


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## Mrs Vimes (27 Apr 2015)

I think it's important to remember how incredibly incompetent Ulster Bank's Arrears Support Unit are.

Just as an example, when I was in MARP they spent about a month ringing me looking for my husband and another man with the same surname as him and a completely random first name, never ringing when I told them he would be home and refusing to talk to me even though I am named on the account with him. When they eventually got to speak to him they were thoroughly obnoxious and insisted that he was in arrears and had been ignoring them for months. I had been ringing them, writing to them, submitting SFS after SFS because they would lose them all and paying the agreed amount every month without fail.

What I'm saying is that I don't believe they have any idea how many people have been ignoring them and how many people they have been ignoring.

I did get a nice few quid out of them for the above incident, which was just one of many - in total I'm nearing the €6,000 mark and even though we've been on full repayment for about a year they are still finding ways to mess up!



Brendan Burgess said:


> Ulster Bank employs 350 people, both in the field and in centres in Dublin and Edinburgh, who are highly experienced with ongoing training, to support customers.



This bit gave me a good laugh, though. I have never come across a bigger bunch of ill-trained idiots than Ulster Bank's ASU - and I've dealt with a lot of idiots!


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## Mrs Vimes (27 Apr 2015)

People who don't engage with UB get social housing, people who do engage with them for any length of time will be accommodated in their nearest psychiatric hospital.

Yes, I am bitter


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## michaelg (27 Apr 2015)

true, UB customer service is woeful, ive had similar experiences


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## Sarenco (27 Apr 2015)

44brendan said:


> Am I missing something here?? I've read both the Press Release and the Leaflet and neither make any reference to a agreement to W/O residual debt. Is there a 2nd release? Furthermore such an offer must be more restrictive than "appears on the tin". I.e. While a mortgage holder may meet the income threshold for Social Housing he/she /they could have substantial unencumbered assets.
> Not wanting to throw cold water on anything but this headline offer appears to be overly simplistic!!


 
Whatever about the headline, I assume any lender would want to retain the ability to recoup their losses from any windfalls (Lotto wins, large inheritances, etc.) that might arise after the resolution has been finalised.  I would have thought that an agreement on the part of UB not to pursue any residual debt for as long as the borrower's circumstances do not materially change is a reasonable position.  Ultimately the Statute of Limitations would presumably make the distinction between an agreement not to pursue a debt and a formal write-off of that debt somewhat academic.

In addition to the income thresholds, my understanding is the availability of alternative accommodation is also a relevant consideration in determining eligibility for social housing.


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## RichInSpirit (27 Apr 2015)

Agree thoroughly with Mrs. Vines. I spent a day trying to get through to Ulster Bank a few years ago. The phone wasn't answered. So I don't take them that seriously any more.


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## Bronte (28 Apr 2015)

Mrs Vimes said:


> I have never come across a bigger bunch of ill-trained idiots than Ulster Bank's ASU - and I've dealt with a lot of idiots!


 
As a long standing Ulster bank customer I can totally agree with this, and it's not just the ASU.  Received compensation twice that in no way helped to compensate me for dealing with the mind blowing people that are called customer service.

Guess this means this is just another lovely public relations exercise.


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## Monbretia (28 Apr 2015)

Most of the highly experienced lending staff  in UB went or were encouraged to go in the last big purge due to cost and much lower cost employees hired since who to be fair to them have practically no real life experience of budgeting/debts/finance in general.  A few QFA exams doesn't prepare you for that sort of job.   That's not much good to customers but that's the reality.


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## MC D (7 May 2015)

I wouldn't wish dealing with the ulster bank arrears centre in Scotland on my worst enemy . Never have a came across a more incompetent lot.


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## Ravima (7 May 2015)

Make sure you keep ALL letters from UB as they DON'T keep copies!!!! I have a letter, that the Mortgage Dept say does not exist!!


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## Kine (8 May 2015)

Agree with the above sentiment - 3 years of dealing with UB were enough to drive me batty. The stories I could tell.....

But I wont go on a rant, not worth the aggravation

And yes, keep ALL correspondence, key in me defending my case. Dates, times of calls, keep a log.


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## michaelg (8 May 2015)

the new rules only apply to your PPR or in other words your home .


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