# My FIREBIRD HEATPAC BOILER 90/120 is not working



## Armer84

Hello, i am new to posting and was wondering if anyone an help me. I have a firebird heatpac 90/120 boiler. The boiler fires up for about 10 mins then cuts out, I have bled the boiler with an Allen key and the oil flows freely out, I have left the timer on constant and after about 15-20 mins the boiler fires up (rads heat up) but then cuts out after about 15 mins then it stays off and doesnt restart.

I only got a service 9-10 months ago so I shouldn't see why there should be a problem, I have ran out of oil a couple of times in the past few years but just bled the valve with an Allen key on the boiler and there was never a problem after that, also there doesn't seem to be any visible problems so I just can't figure out why my boiler is acting up like this.

I have tried the reset button (beside thermostat) on numerous occasions but it only helps fire it up the once and it doesn't do anything after that once it cuts out, I try this the next day and the same thing happens again. 

If you have any ideas let me know thank you


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## Shane007

It sounds like your circulating pump has either failed or it is only barely circulating. The boiler is going out on the high limit thermostat (this is the one that is re-set by removing the black screw cap and pressing the white button, located beside the boiler thermostat). The heat cannot get away from the boiler because of the pump failure which eventually trips the high limit stat. It will only re-set once the temperature within the boiler has fallen below 110C.

You will need to change the circulating pump. I would also look closely at the pump valves either side of the pump. These quite often leak/weap onto the pump itself and can be responsible for the pump failure in the first place.


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## Armer84

Would I be able to change the circulating pump myself, I have checked the firebird manual but doesn't really show any diagrams to help you with anything, where exactly is the pump and valves etc in the boiler if you could explain that would be great, thank you so much for your reply, it's being wrecking my head the last 2-3 weeks but don't want to spent money on a technician unless I have to . . .


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## Shane007

It really depends on how handy you are but it is not a difficult task. The pump should be located close to the boiler. If you have an outside boiler, it maybe located inside the boiler casing at the back. Remove the casing panel to give access. You MUST isolate safely the electrical supply and test all cables to ensure they are not live with a multimeter or similar. Do not assume that the earth or neutral is not live. Once this is done, turn off the isolating valves either side of the pump. If they are the slot type, turn the slots so they are perpendicular to the direction of the pipe, rather than in line with the pipe. Loosen the large nuts on both sides of the pump. Remove the live, neutral and earth cables. Put the cables into the correct terminals of the new pump and reinstate the pump. Use new pump washers, but get rubber washers rather than the fibre ones that come with the pump. Finally turn the slots back in line with the direction of the pipe.

Before going out and purchasing a new pump, check the boiler only gets hot from cold. Check that the heat is not coming out of the flow pipe of the boiler. If the flow pipe is hot into the rads then it may not be the pump. It may get hot for a small section of the pipe immediately from the boiler but not into the radiators.


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## Shane007

I forgot to mention that sometimes if the pump valves have been leaking onto the pump, the valves can be seized onto the pump making them very difficult to remove. They then have to be heated with a blow torch to remove. This then really should be done by a plumber as the system will have to drained to change the pump valves.


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## Armer84

It's an outside boiler and the pump is on the bottom right hand side at the back of the boiler, there is a flathead screw on the top. Will I be able to purchase the pump in a plumbing store or will I get another service just to be sure. Thanks


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## john martin

i would say unless you are fairly handy or confident at this task you should consider getting a service man in.


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## Armer84

I'm fairly handy and want to do it myself but if I change the pump will it work properly, would I get the pump in woodies as I want to try and sort this in the morning. Thank you


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## Shane007

I don't think Woodies sell circulating pumps. It is a reasonably easy task to complete unless you get a bit of hardship undoing the pump valves. Try to purchase a decent pump, such as a Grundfos.

Just remember there are two valves to turn off, one either side of the pump. 

The most important thing is to ensure & guarantee safe isolation of the electrical supply. Getting a bit wet never harmed anybody but electrical current can kill.

Also ensure installing the pump to circulate in the correct direction. There is an arrow embossed on the side of the pump to show this. If the pump is on the flow the arrow should be pointing away from the boiler and if the pump is on the return, it should be pointing towards the boiler. In a Firebird Heatpac, the flow will be from the top of the boiler and the return will be from the bottom of the boiler.


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## Armer84

Do you reckon it's definitely the pump, I tried turning the heating on today, it fired up automatically from the constant switch for bout 15 mins again, I opened 3 rads downstairs but the rad nearest the boiler was the only one with air in it, I went upstairs to the cylinder and the qualpex coming from the attic was throbbing with strong burses or water going through it, it was also very hot, can I not just turn off the power/water in the house before I change the pump, you were saying something about the 2 valves are these not the 2 3/4 inch pipes going in and out of the pump, one more thing, if I got a serviceman to come out he would obviously have to go and get a new pump before finishing the service which would be more money again because the grundfos pump isn't cheap thanks for this you've been so helpful Shane . .


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## Shane007

From the information you originally gave, it sounded like pump failure that was tripping the high limit stat.
From this new information, it could be no water in the boiler that is causing the overheating and then tripping of the high limit.
This could also account for new symptoms that you are describing. Turn off the system and let it cool down.
If there is a leak somewhere, water could have drained from the boiler.

I think it is time to get a service man out. Without seeing the issue, it is difficult to determine the exact cause remotely. I personally carry Grundfos circulating pumps with me and so would any decent service guy. They are a regular replacement item so it should not be two call outs.


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## Armer84

The cylinder is full (seems full)but what I like to mention is that I have the water upstairs cut off from the mains temporarily because I need to get connection for where it branches off from underneath the sink, but this has been like this the last couple of weeks and the heating was fine and why I didn't think this wasnt a problem before was because the oil delivery man said that the boiler should fire up even if the rads aren't open so what do you reckon mate .


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## Shane007

You have lost me a bit here. First tip is never take advice from an oil delivery man with regard to boilers & heating systems!

Is your system sealed or open vented, i.e. do you have a little tank in the attic along with your big tank or do you just have one tank?

If you system is sealed, there should be a pressure gauge somewhere on the system that will indicate the current pressure within the system.
If your system is open vented, go up to the attic and look into the expansion tank and see if there is water in this. 
If your mains water is turned off and you have a small leak on your heating system, the water will have drained from the system and not topped up.

Get back to me once you have done this.


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## Armer84

I'm not at home tonight, basically there is no water going up stairs (toilet and taps are out) the heating was still working and the cylinder seems full, but your probably losing water from somewhere and this could be the cause of it, I think there is just one big tank beside the chimney breast it's a small low lying attic with not much room, it's an outside boiler with an open vent on top with a grill on flange, sorry for all hassle this shane


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## Shane007

As I said, you will need to confirm which system you have, either sealed or open vented. When you are home, get into the attic and look for a small 45 litre tank with a hockey stick shaped pipe going over the top of it. If you do not have this, then you have a sealed system.

If system is sealed, check in the hot press for an expansion vessel. This will be red in colour and looks like a red metal ball, about football sized. You will have a filling loop or an automatic filling valve also. This is where the pressure gauge will be sited. Check the pressure on the gauge and check to see if it is reading 1 bar when the system is cold.


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## Armer84

I will check that and get back to you, will I buy the pump or will I leave it, also the heating was left on a timer and the oil has run out in the past so I don't know if that would damage anything because it would be trying to fire up but there would be no oil going to the boiler, the heating has had no problems before while the water has been cut off from underneath the sink and the cylinder has always been full so that's why I think it's a tricky one to figure out. Thanks


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## Shane007

The problem has nothing to do with the oil. Do *NOT* run the boiler unless you want to purchase a new boiler also. Running a boiler without water in it could split the boiler. Turn it off immediately.
Don't purchase a new pump until you determine that there is water in the system. I think there is low water volume within the system and once you re-fill the system and fix the leak, all will be ok. You probably will not require a new pump.


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## Armer84

Cheers I will check that tomorrow and I will get back to you, thanks for everything, really appreciate it .


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## Armer84

I sorted out the water for upstairs the two tanks in the attic where empty the filled up with water and the boiler was working for 30 mins then just wouldn't fire up.all the rads where hot and where working fine. There was no hot water coming out of the taps I dont think it was leaving the cyclinder there was nothing at all coming out of the hot taps I don't know if this could effect the boiler or not  a few rads where air locked I don't know if this can happen to the cyclinder also .


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## Shane007

As you have two tanks in the attic, I am assuming that one is the f & e tank for your heating system. If this ran dry and it cannot refill as the mains is turned off, then you definitely have a leak. The boiler probably still has a low water content. Do not run the heating until this issue is sorted. Th

The second cwst running dry is not so much a concern as this probably went dry due to flushing of toilets, etc.

In my opinion, this is beyond a DIY fix and you should now call in a plumber and he can sort all issues out, both with heating and your mains.


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## Armer84

The 2 tanks are full and there is water going through every pipe in the house, there is just no hot water going to the taps in upstairs bathroom, them 2 tanks were empty yesterday and are full today, I have pressed the reset button on the cylinder and it's on the + symbol also, when I try to fire up the boiler it's starting for a few seconds and as soon as its try's to fire up it's making a strange sound and not firing at all now, have you any ideas, I will get a plumber in if I can't resolve this thanks .


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## Armer84

Good morning, the 2 tanks are full in the attic, and all the system is full if water everywhere in the house, the problem now is that the boiler is not even firing up now, so at least we can say there is a new problem because this hasn't happened before, the boiler might just need a service part, probably something to ignite the flame inside the boiler because it's turning on but it's just not firing up now at all (rads won't heat up). There was no hot water coming from the taps anywhere even when I had the heating on for about 20 mins, the cylinder was very hot and the 2 tanks upstairs were full but there was still no hot water, this isn't really bothering me at the moment, my priority is to get heating back on, everything seems to be working inside, I think it's the boiler, obviously now the water upstairs has made a difference because it used to fire up for a few mins before I connected the water and now it doesn't fire up at all, it keeps making that fan sound when you press in the red button but won't kick in and you can do it every minute or 2 same result, have you any ideas Shane if not I'll just go with the plumber, thanks for all this .


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## Shane007

If the boiler is going to lock out, then it is a burner issue and not a circulation problem. It is also not gone out on the high limit stat.
If gone to lock out, then problem could be a number of things, i.e. photocell, oil pump, nozzle, solenoid coil, motor, etc. No way of knowing unless I was standing in front of the burner, seeing, listening and checking with my test equipment.

As I said it is time to call out somebody. There may be other issues with your overall heating system and it is best to get a professional to inspect and remedy. You could be causing more damage to the system by trying things that should not be without knowledge and experience. The boiler itself maybe air-locked. Did you open the air vent to release the air when you refilled the system. (This of course will be nothing to do with burner lock out)

Get somebody for your area listed here: http://www.ofteconline.com/locatecompanyIreland.asp


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## villa 1

Shane007 said:


> If the boiler is going to lock out, then it is a burner issue and not a circulation problem. It is also not gone out on the high limit stat.
> If gone to lock out, then problem could be a number of things, i.e. photocell, oil pump, nozzle, solenoid coil, motor, etc. No way of knowing unless I was standing in front of the burner, seeing, listening and checking with my test equipment.
> 
> As I said it is time to call out somebody. There may be other issues with your overall heating system and it is best to get a professional to inspect and remedy. You could be causing more damage to the system by trying things that should not be without knowledge and experience. The boiler itself maybe air-locked. Did you open the air vent to release the air when you refilled the system. (This of course will be nothing to do with burner lock out)
> 
> Get somebody for your area listed here: http://www.ofteconline.com/locatecompanyIreland.asp


 
I have been following this thread and fair play Shane you have been informative.
I would be very carefull using the Oftec link though as I am fairly sure that not all oftec service technicians are qualified Plumbers and they will not be in a position to solve heating/plumbing problems. Some plumbers should stay a mile clear of gas/oil fired appliances as well!! Just a thought.


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## Shane007

Yes of course, I have come across many OFTEC registered technicians and you are correct, they know nothing about heating systems and some even know less about burners!!! A certain company churned many of them in a few days turnaround.
As with everything, ask the questions on the initial phone call to them, "are you experienced in overall heating system probems or do you only fix burners, etc.?"


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## Armer84

No problem Shane thanks for everything you didnt have to write to me and I really appreciate everything you've done, I will get a technician in soon as, talk to mate . . .


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## Shane007

No worries. Glad to help. I hope all ends well.


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