# Wearing the Poppy



## Trafford (6 Nov 2007)

Should poppies be on sale and worn in Ireland in memory of ex-servicemen and women who lost their lives in armed conflict?

I think it is a lovely and fitting reminder of the human sacrifice to see people (mostly on UK TV channels) wearing the poppy. A gentleman over from the UK today visiting our office is wearing one on his lapel, and it struck me how nice an idea it is. Subtle, yet so symbolic.


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## Caveat (6 Nov 2007)

Although it's very much associated with Britain, It's not (I don't think) an exclusively British thing.  With that in mind, I don't see why we in Ireland shouldn't commemorate.  

I'd imagine it would be viewed very much as a political statement on this island though as the only people here I ever see wearing the poppy are UUP/DUP members.


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## ClubMan (6 Nov 2007)

Trafford said:


> Should poppies be on sale


If people want to sell them.


> and worn in Ireland in memory of ex-servicemen and women who lost their lives in armed conflict?


If people want to buy/wear them.


> I think it is a lovely and fitting reminder of the human sacrifice to see people (mostly on UK TV channels) wearing the poppy.


With at least one high profile exception.


> A gentleman over from the UK today visiting our office is wearing one on his lapel


That's usually where they're worn as far as I know.


> and it struck me how nice an idea it is. Subtle, yet so symbolic.


Only now? Did you never see them before this?


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## Graham_07 (6 Nov 2007)

As an alternative, Irish solution, would a tricolour lapel pin do the job, and is also wearable at any time.  
[broken link removed]


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## ClubMan (6 Nov 2007)

Trafford said:


> Should poppies be on sale and worn in Ireland in memory of ex-servicemen and women who lost their lives in armed conflict?


I presumed that you meant specifically those _Irish _people who had fought/died in the _UK _armed forces - and this is already done as far as I know (i.e. the _Royal British Legion _has some sort of presence in _Ireland _and sells/distributes poppies for this purpose). However you seem to be suggesting that maybe the _Remembrance Day _poppy could become a more general commemorative emblem for members of the _Irish _armed forces? I can't see this happening to be honest.


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## Jock04 (6 Nov 2007)

ClubMan said:


> I presumed that you meant specifically those _Irish _people who had fought/died in the _UK _armed forces - and this is already done as far as I know (i.e. the _Royal British Legion _has some sort of presence in _Ireland _and sells/distributes poppies for this purpose). *However you seem to be suggesting that maybe the Remembrance Day poppy could become a more general commemorative emblem for members of the Irish armed forces? I can't see this happening to be honest*.


 
Me neither.
Developing a mock Home Counties accent, travelling over there once a fortnight to support their soccer teams, watching their TV, even taking up cricket is one thing. Wearing a paper flower for a week or so is something else.


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## ClubMan (6 Nov 2007)

Just to clarify - I don't really care what emblems people choose to wear, including this one, but cannot see it being adopted on a more general basis in this country for lots of reasons...


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## Seagull (6 Nov 2007)

The poppy does not only represent the UK. You'll find it worn in many countries that were involved in the war, although you might argue that most of these are members of the British commonwealth. It is also worn in the US, but not as widely.


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## SarahMc (6 Nov 2007)

The only places in Ireland I have seen poppies for sale (for a donation) was in lobbies of COI churches.  I think it is still quite a sectarian issue here.


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## ClubMan (6 Nov 2007)

That's where I saw them too - at the annual ecumenical service in the _CoI _church in the graveyeard where my father is buried. Not sure that this necessarily evidenced any sectarianism?


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## z103 (6 Nov 2007)

> Just to clarify - I don't really care what emblems people choose to wear, including this one, but cannot see it being adopted on a more general basis in this country for lots of reasons



How about a swastika? or a 'tax is theft' pin?
Such emblems can encourage patriotism.


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## ClubMan (6 Nov 2007)

leghorn said:


> How about a swastika? or a 'tax is theft' pin?
> Such emblems can encourage patriotism.


As I said - I personally don't care what emblems people choose to wear.


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## Guest124 (6 Nov 2007)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Poppy

Red or white I wouldnt be caught dead wearing one!


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## slamdunkin (11 Nov 2007)

I always thought that is was in rememberance of those who died in all conflicts that the British were involved in.

So in essence you would be page homage to the Black and Tans, the Parachute regiment etc.

Not something I would particularly care to do if I am being really honest.


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## Guest124 (11 Nov 2007)

slamdunkin said:


> I always thought that is was in rememberance of those who died in all conflicts that the British were involved in.
> 
> So in essence you would be page homage to the Black and Tans, the Parachute regiment etc.
> 
> Not something I would particularly care to do if I am being really honest.


 
- Excellent post!


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## Caveat (12 Nov 2007)

slamdunkin said:


> conflicts that the British were involved in.


 
Incorrect.

The wearing of the poppy is _most closely associated_ with the British and British conflicts but it is an international emblem and refers to all nationalities/conflicts.

The tradition actually started in the USA.


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## Purple (12 Nov 2007)

Caveat said:


> Incorrect.
> 
> The wearing of the poppy is _most closely associated_ with the British and British conflicts but it is an international emblem and refers to all nationalities/conflicts.
> 
> The tradition actually started in the USA.


Are you sure it started in the USA? I thought it was first observed by King George V of the United Kingdom on 7th November, 1919. I'm open to correction though.
Slamdunkin is correct; it also commemorates British troops that died in Ireland. That makes it very contentious.
That said I think it is shameful that we don't do something to remember the Irish men who dies in both wars.


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## Caveat (13 Nov 2007)

Purple said:


> I thought it was first observed by King George V of the United Kingdom on 7th November, 1919.


 
My understanding was that while he was responsible for dedicating and naming the day in the UK, the tradition of selling poppies, as a charity for for needy ex servicemen and to commemorate the 'fallen', had already begun in the states in 1918 with Moira Michael (?), inspired by the poem "In Flanders' Fields".


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## slamdunkin (13 Nov 2007)

Purple said:


> Are you sure it started in the USA? I thought it was first observed by King George V of the United Kingdom on 7th November, 1919. I'm open to correction though.
> Slamdunkin is correct; it also commemorates British troops that died in Ireland. That makes it very contentious.
> That said I think it is shameful that we don't do something to remember the Irish men who dies in both wars.


 
When we start to properly commemorate those who actually tried to free this country from British imperialism (sounds OTT sound its the only term I could think of!) then I am sure we could think about a way to commemorate Irishmen who needed a job or fooled into believing that if they did this then All-Ireland would autonomy - I include members of my own family in that.

I'll step down off my soapbox now and get back ot the subject in hand. I think what Caveat meant was it is used in Canada - dont think its the US - its mostly worned in Commonwealth countries. Full details here - interestingly I note that its states _"Because the poppy honours soldiers in the British Army, in Northern Ireland it is worn primarily by members of the Unionist community"_ that kind of the point I was making in my first post.


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## Caveat (13 Nov 2007)

slamdunkin said:


> When we start to properly commemorate those who actually tried to free this country from British imperialism (sounds OTT sound its the only term I could think of!) then I am sure we could think about a way to commemorate Irishmen who needed a job or fooled into believing that if they did this then All-Ireland would autonomy - I include members of my own family in that.
> 
> I'll step down off my soapbox now and get back ot the subject in hand. I think what Caveat meant was it is used in Canada - dont think its the US - its mostly worned in Commonwealth countries. Full details here - interestingly I note that its states _"Because the poppy honours soldiers in the British Army, in Northern Ireland it is worn primarily by members of the Unionist community"_ that kind of the point I was making in my first post.


 
I'm not being picky but - see your link - the poem that it and my previous post refers to was by a Canadian, but, it was the *American* woman (who Wikipedia do not seem to mention) Moira Michael, who took inspiration and started the tradition in the U.S.

Whilst primarily the poppy is worn in British/Commonwealth countries, it most certainly _*is also worn in other countries*_ - including, to this day, the USA.

On your other point, presumably those commemorated together with British soldiers and those of other nations are members of e.g. Islamic Jihad, the Nazi Party, the IRA...to name a few examples.  Don't think anyone is excluded.


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## slamdunkin (13 Nov 2007)

Caveat said:


> I'm not being picky but - see your link - the poem that it and my previous post refers to was by a Canadian, but, it was the *American* woman (who Wikipedia do not seem to mention) Moira Michael, who took inspiration and started the tradition in the U.S.
> 
> Whilst primarily the poppy is worn in British/Commonwealth countries, it most certainly _*is also worn in other countries*_ - including, to this day, the USA.
> 
> On your other point, presumably those commemorated together with British soldiers and those of other nations are members of e.g. Islamic Jihad, the Nazi Party, the IRA...to name a few examples. Don't think anyone is excluded.


 
actually I think they are excluded - its for their forces only afaik - so you would be commemorating those how killed my g-g-grandfather - to which I say bboooooooo!!!


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## Trafford (13 Nov 2007)

slamdunkin said:


> *When we start to properly commemorate those who actually tried to free this country from British imperialism (sounds OTT sound its the only term I could think of!) then I am sure we could think about a way to commemorate Irishmen who needed a job or fooled into believing that if they did this then All-Ireland would autonomy - I include members of my own family in that.*
> 
> I'll step down off my soapbox now and get back ot the subject in hand. I think what Caveat meant was it is used in Canada - dont think its the US - its mostly worned in Commonwealth countries. Full details here - interestingly I note that its states _"Because the poppy honours soldiers in the British Army, in Northern Ireland it is worn primarily by members of the Unionist community"_ that kind of the point I was making in my first post.


 
We have the annual Wolfe Tone commemeration, the rememberance day, events every Easter in rememberance of the 1916 rising, plus I'm sure I've see gatherings on the news of people commerating hunger strikers, all of whom are being remembered for their fight for Irish freedom. Apart from the rememberance day ceremonies, I don't think there is anything which includes those who fought for Irish freedom from Germany, as was the case when war broke out in 1914.


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## slamdunkin (13 Nov 2007)

Trafford said:


> We have the annual Wolfe Tone commemeration, the rememberance day, events every Easter in rememberance of the 1916 rising, plus I'm sure I've see gatherings on the news of people commerating hunger strikers, all of whom are being remembered for their fight for Irish freedom. Apart from the rememberance day ceremonies, I don't think there is anything which includes those who fought for Irish freedom from Germany, as was the case when war broke out in 1914.


 
I dont remember Irish freedom being under threat Germany - Britain on the otherhand!!

I'm stepping out of this topic now unless specifically asked to clarify an issue


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## Caveat (13 Nov 2007)

slamdunkin said:


> its for their forces only afaik


 
Who do you mean by "their"?

If you mean British/commonwealth forces then you are incorrect.

From your own link:



> _is a day to commemorate the sacrifices of members of the armed_ _forces and of civilians in times of __war__,_


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## Trafford (13 Nov 2007)

slamdunkin said:


> I dont remember Irish freedom being under threat Germany - Britain on the otherhand!!
> 
> I'm stepping out of this topic now unless specifically asked to clarify an issue


 
Well, Germany are at war with us (as we were part of British Empire) so we (British Isles) were under threat of being invaded by Germany and annexed to them I suppose.


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## Rovers1901 (14 Nov 2007)

I thought the Germans were our "gallant allies"...!!

As for wearing the poppy, I don't feel any need to associate myself with the British army so i choose not to wear one.


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## Caveat (14 Nov 2007)

Rovers1901 said:


> As for wearing the poppy, I don't feel any need to associate myself with the British army so i choose not to wear one.


 
Right. Ok.


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## GeneralZod (14 Nov 2007)

It takes a certain amount of courage to wear a poppy in the Republic of Ireland given the hostility of an element to it. 

It is not an exclusively British thing and doesn't imply disloyalty to the present more democratic set-up. As has been pointed out poppies are sold at CofI churches amongst other places on Remembrance day. It's a way of honouring our ancestors that fought in WWI & II. For me that's personal and natural. Both my church and former school have memorials to the parishioners and past-pupils that died in WWI & WWII. I spent many a lunch break standing beside it and couldn't help noticing it!


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## stir crazy (15 Nov 2007)

slamdunkin said:


> I always thought that is was in rememberance of those who died in all conflicts that the British were involved in.
> 
> So in essence you would be page homage to the Black and Tans, the Parachute regiment etc.
> 
> Not something I would particularly care to do if I am being really honest.



Good Post.

I am firmly against the promotion of symbols which exclude others.
There was a debate on the radio sometime last week about this very thread topic. As Its' a free country I dont have a problem with anyone wearing the symbols they wish but I resented the way the host (perhaps it was Orla Barry or some similar sounding name for a female host) implied that the Irish people need to grow up because were not all wearing poppies.  She used the words 'grow up' so it appears to me theres perhaps a media agenda. Ok this is just my perception. You can take it or leave it.

Then some dude got on the airwaves and started saying stuff like how people wear the Easter Lily therefore he wears the Poppy. This gave the game away to me during this debate that  a significant number of people wear the poppy exactly for controversial reasons and because they dont honor the sacrifices of the founders of our republic. It has definitely become a symbol of claimed moral superiority, Britishness and exclusiveness in my view which will be tolerated but not worn or fully accepted by a large majority of Irish people. If we want to remember our citizens we can do it our own sovereign  way without triumphalism.
And why exclude German victims ? We are supposed to be one european union. We can if we wish also remember on a human level those citizens on all sides of all conflicts whose lives were tragically wasted without claiming superiority of victimhood. This would include all european victims of war, including children barely 15 years old conscripted into the German nazi army under a repressive dictatorship of the time. This is my view. I'm sure someone might have a problem with it


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## The_Banker (16 Nov 2007)

On the subject of symbols....
I wore a Glasgow Rangers Jersey (which might be considered symbolic) during 5 aside soccer last Wednesday night at the local astro turf pitches in Cork. I got lots of abuse from the people I played with and from people playing soccer in the surrounding pitches.
All the abusers wore Man Utd, Liverpool, Arsenal, Spurs and Chelsea jerseys. Funny that.


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## stir crazy (17 Nov 2007)

The_Banker said:


> On the subject of symbols....
> I wore a Glasgow Rangers Jersey (which might be considered symbolic) during 5 aside soccer last Wednesday night at the local astro turf pitches in Cork. I got lots of abuse from the people I played with and from people playing soccer in the surrounding pitches.
> All the abusers wore Man Utd, Liverpool, Arsenal, Spurs and Chelsea jerseys. Funny that.



I agree its all the height of stupidity and I would only wear a jersey  for fashion reasons. This is probably why most people who dont care or know what symbols are about would wear them. (lack of taste is another matter completely) However I dont think whichever football jersey you wear is on the same level of significance as the poppy.I am not aware of any football club which ever attempted to justify the killing of anyone and when you buy a football jersey it does not fund sectarian acts. It pays for footballers overinflated salaries and keeping the grounds etc while the poppy as far as I am aware directly funds ex servicemen who have killed people.

But what do you think about the poppy specifically? why didnt you wear a celtic jersey + poppy if you wanted to make a statement ?


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## slamdunkin (18 Nov 2007)

The_Banker said:


> On the subject of symbols....
> I wore a Glasgow Rangers Jersey (which might be considered symbolic) during 5 aside soccer last Wednesday night at the local astro turf pitches in Cork. I got lots of abuse from the people I played with and from people playing soccer in the surrounding pitches.
> All the abusers wore Man Utd, Liverpool, Arsenal, Spurs and Chelsea jerseys. Funny that.


 
nothing funny about it really, if you think about it - you wore a shirt, in Ireland, a predominantly Catholic country, of a club that had a policy for over 100 years of not employing Catholics, not to mention singing about killing them every second weekend and its support hold at its core anti Irish sentiment! 

Then you are surprised when you get a reaction to it!

Anyway - thats all off topic


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## Purple (19 Nov 2007)

I don't know which is worse, this:


The_Banker said:


> I wore a Glasgow Rangers Jersey


or this:


stir crazy said:


> I would only wear a jersey  for fashion reasons.


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## Purple (19 Nov 2007)

Caveat said:


> Who do you mean by "their"?
> 
> If you mean British/commonwealth forces then you are incorrect.
> 
> From your own link:


Poppies are sold in Ireland and the UK by the British Logion. They are sold exclusively to remember fallen Commonwealth soldiers. When you wear a poppy in this country you are making a statement of connection with Britain and a statement of disconnection with this republic. That may not be how it should be but it is how it is. 
I have thought about this quite a bit recently and think we should do more to remember our dead from the two World Wars but we should not do so by funding or supporting an organisation that helps the men who kept the natives in their place all over the British Empire (and continue to do so).


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## ajapale (19 Nov 2007)

That looks like a good place to end the discussion.


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