# The Great Game II - the Irish Property Empire abroad



## edo (21 Sep 2006)

Hi Folks

Just spent the previous evening with a mate of mine who is thinking (actually more accurately salivating!) over the prospects of buying a piece of the property action abroad. 
Just a few observations to kick off this thread:  

I'll put my cards on the table first. The one piece of bricks and mortar that I do own is in Greece , a 2 bed apartment in Athens which I bought under the spell of a young Greek lady when I lived and worked there in the late 90's! (96-99). It has worked out ok - its in a good location - practically paid for - 2 years on the loan left and the rental income pays for all , including the management fees - been lucky on tenant turnover - the same couple been there for last 5 years - good tenants. I probably could take serious capital appreciation if I sold up now , but I'll probably hang on to it - it not costing me anything - I like Athens , the big dirty overgrown smog ridden 6 1/2 million filled megalopolis that it is , one of those places that gets under your skin - and when the industry Im in here in Ireland is finally outsourced to the Far East I can always go back into the tourism and teaching english game there.

With that out of the way:

Im amazed at the amount of investing Irish People are doing right around the world . From penthouses in China to igloos in the Artic - a lot of them risking far more than myself and it would seem very very little knowledge of the countries and more particularly the cultures into which they are investing in apart from what it says in the glosssy brochures produced by the Selling Agents.

In Particular what I find telling is the widespread attitude that what has heppened in Ireland over the last decade or so is just bound to happen in nearly every other country in the world whose standard of living (or maybe more accurately cost of living !) has not reached the dizzy heights that ours has. Eastern Europe ,the Med , the Middle East , the Far East - all just waiting to have their version of the Celtic tiger and we , the Irish Landlord class (isn't it amazing how easily that can be said now , without invoking images of Davitt and Parnell famine and evictions etc etc) will be housing them all!.

It is as if the whole country has read _Francis Fukuyama's The End of History_ and has assumed that everybody will now buy into the Anglo Saxon laisse faire liberal democracy path that apparently triumphed over all others the fall of the Soviet Union in the early 90s. And that all these countries will be lucky enough to have same miraclous alignment of economic good luck that we had since then. 

I dont know about that - thats why Im fishing around for others opinions:

a few examples:

Poland:

 Everybody seems to be getting in know in anticipation of a big takeoff. Well the poles have been waiting the bones of 20 years and they are voting with their feet. A President and Prime minister far more concerned with homosexuality and the death penalty and other imaginative policies, a brain drain that is making Irish Emigration over the last 50 years look like small potatoes - the brightest and best of their young are leaving at an alarming rate - and their birth rate is falling - I don't know but it sure is starting to look like in Ireland in the 50's not the pre-tiger 80's.


Hungary - once the bright star of post communist eastern europe - nows looks like is going to take over from Slovakia as the economic basket case of eastern europe - serious structural issues that will take a long time to resolve - how long do you intend investing for and will rental yield to the natives keep you covered in the meantime?

Dubai - Yeah the clean shiny heart of Middle Eastern Business - the switzerland of the levant - or wasnt that what they used to call Beirut? - A Petro absolutist monarchy in a great neighbourhood with lots of stable mature democracies as Neighbours - Saudi, Iran , Iraq - well maybe I could be wrong but I just dont see the word stability and certainty anywhere in the Future of that region at the mo.

I could go on and on - but I have to do some work now - just kicking around a few thoughts - would welcome any rebuttals and thoughts from others on the issue


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## room305 (21 Sep 2006)

I happen to work with a lot of Polish guys and property comes up in conversation regularly. They are amazed by the amount of Irish people asking them about buying in Poland. Many Irish seem under the impression that Poland will become the new Ireland and property will take off in the same way. Thing is, property is so over-priced in Poland now it is almost impossible to see it going much further. Most Polish people who live and work in Warsaw or Krakow cannot afford to buy there. So who or what is going to fuel even further appreciation?

Demographics are poor as well. One of the guys here said that last year only one child was born in his village. Five or six years ago that figure would have been thirty. None of them seem particularly optimistic about Poland's economic future.

As for Dubai? Apart from quite a few hapless investors overlooking the lack of a double-taxation agreement and therefore thinking they won't have to pay any tax on capital appreciation - the Dubai stock market is trading at below 2004 levels and seems very weak. Doesn't sound like a healthy economy to me.

Now don't even get me started on all those people buying in Turkey ...


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## Howitzer (21 Sep 2006)

Here's some more great stats from the Polish Central Statistics Office.

Population is projected to fall from 38 million in 2005 to 35.6 in 2030. The number of over 65s will go from 5 million in 2005 to 8.5 in 2030.

[broken link removed]

Unemployment is currently (June 2006) 16%.

[broken link removed]


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## phoenix_n (21 Sep 2006)

yeah looked at the polish market, wroclaw to be exact. i do think there is money to be made to be honest in property there if you choose correctly. you can get for example a 3 bed flat for around 135K in the centre square there.(the best area) [broken link removed] last one in list.

With polish soon to be able to work in Germany and thus getting better wages property prices will go up.


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## room305 (21 Sep 2006)

phoenix_n said:


> With polish soon to be able to work in Germany and thus getting better wages property prices will go up.



Markets are forward discounting mechanisms. I would say the price of Polish property now equates to what Polish people will be willing to pay once they are on better wages. It may go up some from here but not much, I would say the risk/return ratio is quite high with fairly limited upside.


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## baby_tooth (21 Sep 2006)

room305 said:


> Markets are forward discounting mechanisms. I would say the price of Polish property now equates to what Polish people will be willing to pay once they are on better wages. It may go up some from here but not much, I would say the risk/return ratio is quite high with fairly limited upside.


 

so apply that logic to ireland.

the market is not so simple as that.
elastaticity.
the in/efficiency of entry/barrier taxations visavie stamp duty.

markets are a crude reflection of information assymetry, vested interests, cost inefficiencies and so on. the more external interference the worse the market becomes at predicting future, 

eg: propery markets way off....capital markets closet to the ball...


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## Duplex (21 Sep 2006)

http://www.google.com/trends?q=spanish+property

Its hotspot hop scotch, from Spain (see above) to Hungary to Florida to Bulgaria to Turkey to Dubai now Poland, Latvia. Once the hot spot is no longer the subject of heardonomics it becomes a place where bewildered 'investors' wonder at why they still cant sell their 'investment' after it's being on the market for a couple of years. It not as if this type of speculative mania hasn't happened countless times before, but I suppose its a first for the Irish. 

The words learning, curve and steep spring to mind.


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## Duplex (21 Sep 2006)

This is typical coverage of the housing crash in the US.  




> USA Today 21 September 2006
> 
> The vanishing act of speculators is accelerating the decline in home sales this year. That's making life hard for home sellers but giving buyers a bonanza of choices. It's also a stark reminder of the cyclical nature of real estate.
> Though it's too early to say how far the market will fall, short-term real estate investors are learning how hard it is to make money — any money — once For Sale signs begin hanging in yards for months. Sellers cut prices, and builders hand out swimming pools to entice hesitant buyers.
> ...


http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/housing/2006-09-20-flipping-usat_x.htm


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## ecstatic (21 Sep 2006)

Interesting mate u bought in Greece no economic prospects of sort not much research there.

"Demographics are poor as well." - What planet are you on mate its the youngest labour force in europe. Go check out country to the city migration and see what the migration really is. 

Go ask IBM DELL and countless other corporates with R&D centres in Poland what they make of the place. Why did unemployment drop from 20% to 15.7% in two years (maybe they all migrated ! )

Why is it that every top computer programming competiition in the world out of the top 10 places Warsaw university scores generally 3 people in the top 10 ???

Go look at your macroeconomic statistics Poland is growing around 5%-6% with mortgage growth of 60%. Latvia growing at 10% with 7% inflation. Yields do exist in these places i know i scored close to 10% 2 years ago in Warsaw. 100% in two years has been made out there by anyone in that long. Was 40% more if you were in 3 years ago.

Now look around: Spain a bigger property boom as ireland and a similiar basket case back in the 70's. 

Billions is been pumped in at the moment go do a reading on the currencies the future is very bright for Poland.

Hungarys core problem is that the currency is completly overvalued the dogs on the street could tell you that until they intervene there going nowhere. 

I dont see Czech Republic mentioned and from what i remember 1997 17 thousand would have got u an apartment that would sell for minimum 350K now. 

People will always make mistakes in life but those who do there research will make money anywhere full stop.

By the way u can get 70 metre flat in wroclaw for around 80K.


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## phoenix_n (21 Sep 2006)

ecstatic said:


> Interesting mate u bought in Greece no economic prospects of sort not much research there.
> 
> "Demographics are poor as well." - What planet are you on mate its the youngest labour force in europe. Go check out country to the city migration and see what the migration really is.
> 
> ...


 
Agree. Yep on the 80K flat but i am/was looking at the market square. very familiar as currently am over here!!!


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## room305 (21 Sep 2006)

Oh dear ecstatic, am I to take it that you are heavily invested, indeed leveraged, into a global property boom?

I'm was only relaying what I've been told by the Polish workers in my office. Funnily enough, they are the young, highly educated types who you seem to think will fuel property prices to even more stratospheric heights in Poland in years to come.

Strange, that they seem so intent on finding work here and in the U.S. instead of Poland. 

Still, I'm sure if capital appreciation continues to run at 20% for another few years, they'll all start running back to avail of the smaller wages and more competitive jobs market.


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## Howitzer (21 Sep 2006)

ecstatic said:


> "Demographics are poor as well." - What planet are you on mate its the youngest labour force in europe. Go check out country to the city migration and see what the migration really is.


 
I was going to post that link to the Polish CSO figures as I assumed I posted it a different thread after reading your post, but no there it is just above yours. Do people only read what they want to hear these days?


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## phoenix_n (21 Sep 2006)

Howitzer said:


> I was going to post that link to the Polish CSO figures as I assumed I posted it a different thread after reading your post, but no there it is just above yours. Do people only read what they want to hear these days?


 
Yeah i am reminded of some quote. You can bring a horse to a fountain but you can't make it drink it.


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## coinfused (21 Sep 2006)

phoenix_n said:


> Yeah i am reminded of some quote. You can bring a horse to a fountain but you can't make it drink it.


 

"You can bring a horse to water but a pencil must be lead"
Stan Laurel


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## ecstatic (21 Sep 2006)

"Oh dear ecstatic, am I to take it that you are heavily invested, indeed leveraged, into a global property boom?"

I think everyone on the planet is!

Polish people are quite pessimistic not so unlike the Irish people who also were harping on about a property crash circa 1990 and we all know who laughed last there  

Say around 2 million people have left so far leaves 40 million people quite a large country dont u think ? 

Was it not on BBC recently that thousands of these people were homeless in London ? How long will that last ? 

Polish people love owning property have a chat with them. 

When will they ever buy in Ireland / London ?

Its still growing faster than ireland and its not driven by consumer growth its driven significantly by investment growth. All cycles come and go its the timing that counts. 

We all know how far consumer growth gets you reference the US dollar slide of late even on the back of increased interest rates! 

Differing types of growth. 

The european experiment is proven and works it is attempted to be repeated in south america (mercusor (not very successful)) and in asia (cannot remember the name off hand! ). 

People dont copy things unless they work !


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## Calina (21 Sep 2006)

ecstatic said:


> I think everyone on the planet is!



Actually no they're not. Quite a few billion have enough trouble finding sufficient food to feed themselves and their families never mind looking for the next quick rich scheme. As for the rest of your comment, I don't get what point you're trying to make but it could be because text talk annoys me and I don't have much time for people who type u instead of you. 

Whether Poland represents the next property boom or not, the issue that is outstanding is the vast quantity of debt that many Irish people have amassed in "buying" their property out foreign. Debt brings problems, particularly when the cost of that debt is rising.


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## Duplex (21 Sep 2006)

Don't you guys remember what happened in Ireland when we joined the EEC.  Why house prices rocketed and unemployment and emigration nosedived.  Sorry scratch that, unemployment rocketed as did emigration and house prices fell in real terms for a decade and a half. But hey I like the first version better so I'm sticking with it.


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## ecstatic (21 Sep 2006)

"I don't get what point you're trying to make but it could be because text talk " -- reference the text talk please. 

The brackets would signify basic algebra that one would learn in school.

On an aside note equities in which the EBRD and European Bank invested last year in Poland returned 60%. 

This is contra to a lot of other booms that occur around the planet.


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## ecstatic (21 Sep 2006)

Duplex: 

House prices did rocket in the 80's mate when ireland joined EU.

My father bought a house for 12 K  / 15K in 1980 and sold it for 112k - 120K in 1990. Thats quite an increase !

This is seven years after joining the EU when he bough the house.


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## Calina (21 Sep 2006)

ecstatic said:


> "I don't get what point you're trying to make but it could be because text talk " -- reference the text talk please.



Your tendency to replace "you" with "u", as outlined above. 

Either way you haven't addressed the point I've made. The issue here is not where people are buying property - because that does not really matter. The issue is how much debt they have taken on to fund those purchases at a time when that debt is becoming more expensive.


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## Glenbhoy (21 Sep 2006)

ecstatic said:


> Duplex:
> 
> House prices did rocket in the 80's mate when ireland joined EU.
> 
> ...


And inflation was??
One small point, not overly relevant, but I think Ireland actually joined the Common Market back in '73.


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## room305 (21 Sep 2006)

Ecstatic, your ideas would be very persuasive if it wasn't for the fact that the boom in Polish property has already happened. You are not buying to piggyback onto capital appreciation due to rising wages, you are buying property that has already appreciated astronomically and hoping to sit it out while the wages of Polish workers play catch-up.

The fundamentals were sound but for now most people involved in buying property in Poland are doing so based on the "greater fool theory".

As for the Polish buying in Ireland? Lots of them have.

This foreign property mania is great if you get in ahead of the pack but by the time it makes a roadshow or an RDS expo I think the game is up.

As an aside. If I was a developer I'd simply pick a country that's off everyone's radar. Laos or Surinam or something. Buy some cheap land and build a big complex of luxury apartments. Then I'd offer a bunch of free penthouses to all the main property sellers here. Then I'd let them hype the place so they could flog their penthouses to the gullible Irish.

Hell, given the rate people here are buying at, this mightn't be a bad idea for some countries to adopt themselves ...


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## paddyd (21 Sep 2006)

Its probably important to note that some of us are speculators, and some take a longer view. Eastern Europe is definitely a longer view. The 20% CapAp days are gone.
I have a 'longer view' in Budapest, but have travelled a lot there over the years and love the place.
Oh, and if I hear another person talking about the walls of the country caving in just because some skin-heads are causing some trouble outside the Government buildings ONE - MORE - TIME! 
Don't people realise that an ecomony is stronger than any of that? Especially with the amount of foreign investment Hungary has.
Incidently, Hungary is the econimic center of Eastern Europe. Its neither Poland not Czech, nor anywhere else.

Don't believe the hype when buying, and do the research.


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## room305 (21 Sep 2006)

paddyd said:


> Its probably important to note that some of us are speculators, and some take a longer view. Eastern Europe is definitely a longer view. The 20% CapAp days are gone.



The current prices reflect an expectation of continuing double digit growth. When this recedes the speculators will exit the market. Some with large wads of cash, some with their fingers very badly burnt. Anyone taking a longer view would be well advised to sit back and look to enter the market after the others have fled, when prices will be much lower.


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## baby_tooth (21 Sep 2006)

ecstatic said:


> Duplex:
> 
> House prices did rocket in the 80's mate when ireland joined EU.
> 
> ...


 


but only in nominal terms.

what was the average wage in each year and tell me the ratio of one to another.

I know there is an increase but not to that extent of a straight out 100k increase.


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## bearishbull (21 Sep 2006)

Some of the prices being quoted for poland are more than properties in vastly wealthier germany etc. I  have also heard demographics arent great for long term in poland. Just because an economy is growing and is likely to grow for many years doesnt mean property prices will rise hugely. Most of these countries have lots of property built already and plenty of room to build at low cost. Many poles may move to the other european countires permanently when the working restrictions are lifted. Prices in poland seem priced for perfection. Theres always money to be made in any market but buying property in an expo in rds is not the way to make money.


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## bogwarrior (22 Sep 2006)

while living abroad from the 97 until last year (ie during our property price explosion) I can't recall ever seeing 'rds property expo' style events promoting buying property in Ireland (I was in the states and australia).  I did see events for property in Dubai, Spain etc.  Does anyone know if Irish property was ever promoted in this way to (non corporate) foreign investors?

The only foreigners I can ever remember buying property here were the Dutch and Germans buying cottages and small farms in the south and west back in the 80's.


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## soma (22 Sep 2006)

bogwarrior said:


> Does anyone know if Irish property was ever promoted in this way to (non corporate) foreign investors?



Not at all. One of the reasons the UK currently has a 'soft landing' (which I do not believe will hold), is that alot of international money has flowed in, particularly to London.

This has most certainly not happened in Ireland, which makes a laughing stock of the old property bull adage that "we're like London, Paris & NY now".


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## Remix (22 Sep 2006)

bogwarrior said:


> Does anyone know if Irish property was ever promoted in this way to (non corporate) foreign investors?


 
Not picking on these houses in particular because this mother-of-all-ripoffs in being perpetrated at all levels but can you imagine an Irish agent trying to sell these properties at these prices to Dutch or German investors.

[broken link removed]

They would laugh in their face and with tears streaming down their faces would be unable to stop themselves laughing for the rest of the day !


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## Duplex (22 Sep 2006)

Remix said:


> Not picking on these houses in particular because this mother-of-all-ripoffs in being perpetrated at all levels but can you imagine an Irish agent trying to sell these properties at these prices to Dutch or German investors.
> 
> [broken link removed]
> 
> They would laugh in their face and with tears streaming down their faces would be unable to stop themselves laughing for the rest of the day !


 
I'm not so sure Remix; some of those Dutch guys smoke a lot of them 'happy cigarettes' If you could find a Dutch guy off of his head on wacky backy he might be willing to take a Glasthule micro cottage for €500,000 seriously.


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## bogwarrior (22 Sep 2006)

Remix said:


> Not picking on these houses in particular because this mother-of-all-ripoffs in being perpetrated at all levels but can you imagine an Irish agent trying to sell these properties at these prices to Dutch or German investors.
> 
> [broken link removed]
> 
> They would laugh in their face and with tears streaming down their faces would be unable to stop themselves laughing for the rest of the day !



yes, at current prices of course you're not going to get small-scale foreign investors coming here.  But going back 6-7 years, when property prices were half ( or less) of current prices, I don't recall a great clamour from abroad for Irish property, unlike the big advertising push for overseas property we now have here and in the UK.  That said, 7 years ago Hans and Jan were probably spending their money on tasty shares in Baltimore Technologies and Pets.com.

Maybe, by the time low interest rates cira late 2001 started to feed the housing frenzy in many countries, the smart money saw that Irish properties prices were already too high.  That didn't stop prices increasing further.....


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## BigM (22 Sep 2006)

Remix said:


> can you imagine an Irish agent trying to sell these properties at these prices to Dutch or German investors.
> 
> [broken link removed]


 
Very true - but I presume Bogwarrior meant was Irish property ever advertised to foreign markets in the pre-boom dark days, when you could buy a 5-bed detached period in Blackrock with acre garden for less than 100k?
Answer is still probably the same - no, since we were a complete basket case and the Europeans probably felt they were already subsidising us enough via EU funds without propping up our ailing property market.


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## Remix (22 Sep 2006)

Sorry didn't know Bogwarrior was referring to pre-boom days because he opened with



> while living abroad from the 97 until last year (ie *during our property price explosion*) I can't recall ever seeing 'rds property expo'


 
Remix

_"Fortune, goodnight. Smile once more; spin thy wheel"_


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## bogwarrior (22 Sep 2006)

BigM said:


> Very true - but I presume Bogwarrior meant was Irish property ever advertised to foreign markets in the pre-boom dark days



sorry, should have made it clearer - I meant around 1998-2001 ie when our economy was going up, unemployment was low, rental yields were high (i recall queueing up for the privilege to rent an apartment, there was a real shortage), we were committed to the euro and property prices were far lower than they are now ( I think this is what George Lee calls Celtic Tiger 1).

What would a rundown 1 bed cottage in Glasthule cost then?? (I remember new 3 bed apts in Christchurch going for around 80K (punts) in 98).  And why weren't foreigners flocking here to buy, the same way we're encouraged to snap up properties in Budapest, Sofia, Warsaw etc?  Weren't our fundamentals better back then, compared to Hungary or Polands now?

Maybe, we had laws which didn't encourage outside investors?
Or maybe, as you say BigM, the Europeans knew our 'form' and kept well clear


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## BigM (22 Sep 2006)

bogwarrior said:


> And why weren't foreigners flocking here to buy, the same way we're encouraged to snap up properties in Budapest, Sofia, Warsaw etc? Weren't our fundamentals better back then, compared to Hungary or Polands now?


 
Got to remember that back around 2000 Germany and France weren't exactly awash with cash. The reunification had cost them a bundle, property market in Germany has already nearly bankrupted several of the large State banks so they might have been a bit wary of investing in property at all! (and of course, our 'form' - "Those crazy Irish", as I've heard several German bankers describe us over the years )


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## JohnBoy (22 Sep 2006)

i think that the investing psychology of different nations plays a large part in these decisions. the Irish mania for all things property realted is now an accepted fact but not all nations get their kicks out of buying property abroad. you will probably find that there is a much stronger equity culture amongst many of the continental Europeans than there is in Ireland (the Spanish being a notable exception). for sure lots of Europeans dream of buying a holiday/retirement home in southern Europe but these same people would probably baulk at the thought of relying upon poperty to fund their retirement.

in fixed income banking in Europe the dull issues are described as being fit for Belgian dentists because these people have been the traditional buyers of solid (if unexciting) corporate bond isues. in much the same way anyone wanting to sell overseas property to individual investors is better off trying the Irish & English as they have a strong bias towards property.


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## joe sod (22 Sep 2006)

I agree fully with your analysis Edo, Ive been thinking the same thing myself. I do not believe eastern europe will be the next ireland, many people here in the late 90s did not believe ireland would be the next ireland. We were extremely lucky in the nineties that global economic forces were all lined up in our favour. However we had to wait nearly 80 years after independence and 25 years after joining the EU for this to occur. IT is worth remembering that a few big multinationals reduced irelands unemployment rate from 10% in 1997 to 4% in 1999. It will take an awful lot more to turn polands rate around simply because poland is a much bigger country. Secondly the high tech boom was on and these companies were in bullish mood. They are not in bullish mood now and if they move to poland it will be for negative reasons (to reduce costs) rather than the positive reasons which encouraged them to move to ireland. Michael O Leary jokingly commented on the irish fascination with investing in property there facilitated by ryanair ( they should be selling to the poles now not buying from them). The only property in eastern europe still worth investing is farmland but this is restricted and is difficult for foreigners to buy


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## paddyd (25 Sep 2006)

Irish property was not advertised abroad for one simple reason: where would you advertise? In the late 90's, as Joe sez above 'people here in the late 90s did not believe ireland would be the next ireland.'. Where would you find some Frenchman, German, English even who would ever come to ireland to buy property? and island cut off from the rest of the continent. These people (particularily the Italians), don't even buy THEIR OWN property! they rent.

Remember we were/are the only country in the EU (perhaps the world) during the same period (90's-now) where the entire country is now cash rich, and we needed to do something with all the cash; so we bought more property here, and we bought more abroad.

we're not buying property because we are all propery experts; we buy it because we have a wad burning a hole in our pockets, and having a property portfolio was the dish du jour!
Very few of us were ever even a landlord in our own country, let alone the far reaches of turkey, or china, or wherever.

Most places are still appreciating, so we are all still making money, but its by pure luck in 99% of the cases!


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## hmmm (25 Sep 2006)

paddyd said:


> Remember we were/are the only country in the EU (perhaps the world) during the same period (90's-now) where the entire country is now cash rich, and we needed to do something with all the cash; so we bought more property here, and we bought more abroad.



We've maybe caught up somewhat with our fellow Europeans, but we are cash rich only because we are borrowing like crazy. It's all very well going on a mad binge with the credit card, but at some stage you will have to pay it back.


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## Afuera (25 Sep 2006)

paddyd said:


> Where would you find some Frenchman, German, English even who would ever come to ireland to buy property? and island cut off from the rest of the continent. These people (particularily the Italians), don't even buy THEIR OWN property! they rent.


 
Don't know where you got that impression about low home ownership in Italy. Any articles I've seen have shown them with a similar percentage to us at around 80%:


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## paddyd (25 Sep 2006)

As was mentioned here about David McWilliams article yesterday regarding Hungarian property, its pinch of salt time. 

I lived in Italy over the past 6 years, working for an italian/irish company, in Rome. Believe me, their peoperty market is unbelievablly 'italian'. (btw I love the italians)

For example: the property market is very mature, very expensive. (maybe this is what the telegaff guy was referring to. Purchasing power is very low, italians don't get paid like we do

Only couples (and mostly married people) buy property there. However, the average age of marriage is 34-35 in italy (highest in euroland), hence everyone is still living with their parents. They call them 'mamino' , mammy's boys.

You must purchase an apartment in a new build as part of a co-op, so you need 50 committed buyers; if one leaves, the co-op needs to be re-formed. There is no compulsion for the builder to every complete the building on time. Deadlines mean little to the builders. Stefano, the guy i rented with, bought his place with his wife a few years before I arrived, and then the builder asked for another 25% from everyone, or he wouldn't finish the build. It was 4 years in total! He was living with his parents with his wife for 2 years after getting married, in their apartment, before he rented.

I doubt the place has changed in the past few years.

Of course, on the plus side, you can spend your cash on clothers, shades and the latest Alfa


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## liteweight (25 Sep 2006)

Many Irish feel the need to buy in sunnier climates with a view to spending a lot of time there upon retirement. They pay the upkeep on these house for a long time before they actually take up residence. Norwegians, Swedish, Dutch and German, tend to hold on to their retirement funds and prefer to rent in the South of Spain for the winter months. Rents are much cheaper when a property is taken long term and out of the peak season. In this way they have the best of both worlds, i.e. they hold onto their cash and still manage to live in the sun during the coldest months in their own country.


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## paddyd (25 Sep 2006)

good point lightweight, and of course Germany (in particular) has a much older demographic population than ireland.


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