# Interesting Use Cases and News about Cryptos/Blockchain Technology



## Negotiator

I'm going to post any interesting articles or use cases here that I come across. Post the link to your source if possible and please refrain from discussing Crypto price speculation as I want to focus on the use case and technology side of things here.


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## Negotiator

https://www.coindesk.com/intel-thinks-blockchain-power-next-generation-media-manager/

Intel sees potential opportunities in copyright protection using timestamps.

_"Blockchain technology is used to document and verify attributes of digital content that are relevant to copyright protection. Such attributes may include, for instance, an identifier for the author of the content, a timestamp to indicate when the content was created, and a measurement that can subsequently be used to detect copying or modification of the content."_


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## Negotiator

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/cointel...uct-first-blockchain-property-transaction/amp

_"Even though according to the WSJ the Lantmäteriet already functions in a “highly digitized and paperless” system, the time from signing a contract to registering a sale can take between three to six months.

With the Blockchain system, “it could be hours,”Jörgen Modin, chief solutions architect at ChromaWay, tells the WSJ. Modin added that the buyer and seller don’t even have to be located in the country for the deal to go through"

_
Sweden seems to be very proactive with regards Cryptos and Blockchain. They are even looking for companies to put forward proposals on creating a national cryptocurrency!


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## TheBigShort

Negotiator said:


> https://www.coindesk.com/intel-thinks-blockchain-power-next-generation-media-manager/
> 
> Intel sees potential opportunities in copyright protection using timestamps.
> 
> _"Blockchain technology is used to document and verify attributes of digital content that are relevant to copyright protection. Such attributes may include, for instance, an identifier for the author of the content, a timestamp to indicate when the content was created, and a measurement that can subsequently be used to detect copying or modification of the content."_



Let me get this straight, is what is being said here is that effectively blockchain could be used to eliminate copyright disputes? That to all intents and purposes there could be a time when there is no requirement to copyright anything as long as the creator of something records it on a blockchain?

For example, if I am a musician, and I write a particular piece of music, or riff, that subsequently appears on a hit song that makes a wad of cash for some record company and gives a platform to someone else to launch a sucessful career on the back of my work, then using blockchain technology I would be able to prove the origins of that music to be mine without the cost of a lengthy court battle where a big record company could crush me with legal challenges and costs?

Or am I totally reading that wrong?


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## Duke of Marmalade

Negotiator said:


> I'm going to post any interesting articles or use cases here that I come across. Post the link to your source if possible and please refrain from discussing Crypto price speculation as I want to focus on the use case and technology side of things here.


Will some kind moderator please move this thread to Don't Askaboutmoney.


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## Negotiator

Yes that's how I read it Shortie. It gives undisputable proof by way of a timestamp. I would imagine it could apply to trademarks even more so.


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## Negotiator

[broken link removed]
_
"Blockchain technology is being used in the medical industry to help patients take full control of their healthcare records as well as provide access to flexible telemedicine services. Patients can even pay in cryptocurrency.

Medicalchain, a blockchain platform that enables the transparent exchange of medical records by patients and doctors, has partnered with London based The Groves Medical Group to pilot a blockchain programme in its four medical centres.

The pilot is the first application for Medicalchain’s platform and will commence in July 2018. The pilot will allow Medicalchain to gather feedback from doctors and patients, which they will use to refine the programme before its global launch.

Groves’ registered patients will be able to create a free wallet, which will hold and manage access to their health records. GP video consultations will also be available to patients, offering the flexibility to see their doctor at a time and place suited to their needs. The medical group supports 30,000 registered patients and 1,000 private patient families.

The platform will then give patients the option to pay for services using cryptocurrency, with users being incentivised to pay for telemedicine services with Medicalchain’s MedTokens."


_
Think about how this could be used if you were abroad and you had a Medical emergency and the hospital could get instant access to your entire medical history.....could save your life!


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## Negotiator

Duke of Marmalade said:


> Will some kind moderator please move this thread to Don't Askaboutmoney.



Afraid you might learn something about Blockchain technology Duke and that there might be more to Cryptos than a speculative price bubble?


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## TheBigShort

https://youtu.be/3PcR4HWJnkY​
Here is Elizabeth Stark from Lightening Labs that I mentioned elsewhere. She talks for 15mins. Im not sure if I follow everything she says but common sense would suggest that she at least knows what she is talking about.

So between her and Paul Krugman, when it comes to blockchain and cryptos, im inclined to pay more attention to her.
But thats just my take.


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## TheBigShort

Negotiator said:


> Think about how this could be used if you were abroad and you had a Medical emergency and the hospital could get instant access to your entire medical history.....could save your life!



Even more so now that lots more people are more mobile in their jobs, moving to different countries and cities. I can see how this would be very useful for a lot of people.


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## Negotiator

TheBigShort said:


> https://youtu.be/3PcR4HWJnkY​
> Here is Elizabeth Stark from Lightening Labs that I mentioned elsewhere. She talks for 15mins. Im not sure if I follow everything she says but common sense would suggest that she at least knows what she is talking about.
> 
> So between her and Paul Krugman, when it comes to blockchain and cryptos, im inclined to pay more attention to her.
> But thats just my take.



Interesting insights into the future of Lightening Network. I like the idea of multi-chains/crosschains using the Lightening Network as it opens up a lot of new possibilities for collaboration between companies. Perhaps an example might be how you could trade your Tecso Loyalty Tokens for Ryaniar Air Mile Tokens via the Lightening Network. I also wonder if it's possible if 2 exchanges open up a payment channel on the Lightening Network, could they then trade all their tokens between each other instantly and for zero fees (again using multi-chains/crosschains). 

Ivan on Tech (one of my favourites for learning the technical details in simple terms) covers a bit about the Lightening Network too. He's worth keeping an eye on on YouTube if you don't already follow him. https://www.youtube.com/user/LiljeqvistIvan


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## Negotiator

TheBigShort said:


> Even more so now that lots more people are more mobile in their jobs, moving to different countries and cities. I can see how this would be very useful for a lot of people.



Exactly, Millenials are expected to travel to dozens and dozens of countries in their lifetimes and it will only increase. Not to mention medical tourism which is an industry that is exploding due to high cost of healthcare in the western world and we all know where that's headed!


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## Gus1970

I am afraid in this case i will have to disagree with you. Currently lightning network does not have a routing algo that can guarantee your transaction can complete. 

I am an old technologist and simplicity is very important to me. Bitcoin decided to go towards making something very complex that can’t actually work. I am more for onchain scaling but a healthy competition is ensured by the many coins that are currently experimenting with scaling solutions


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## Negotiator

Gus1970 said:


> Currently lightning network does not have a routing algo that can guarantee your transaction can complete



Do you think this issue will be overcome Gus or is it too big a problem to crack?  I am not a software engineer so have no clue about the inner technical details of this but I would have faith in the engineers working towards a solution. I agree though that there is an abundance of competing technologies that will ensure some really good solutions emerge eventually.


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## Gus1970

Negotiator said:


> Do you think this issue will be overcome Gus or is it too big a problem to crack? I am not a software engineer so have no clue about the inner technical details of this but I would have faith in the engineers working towards a solution



I am not 100% sure. I have liquidated 30% of my btc into bch monero and zcash for this reason early in the year when it became apparent that the scaling debate was over and the forever 1mb people had won. 

Routing is a very complex problem (that bitcoin does not have) but that is introduced by lightning. It could work if we had mega hubs with million of channels but this would mean a government could disrupt everything by taking down one or 2 of them


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## Gus1970

Early in the year should read earlier last year


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## Negotiator

Gus1970 said:


> I am not 100% sure. I have liquidated 30% of my btc into bch monero and zcash for this reason early in the year when it became apparent that the scaling debate was over and the forever 1mb people had won.
> 
> Routing is a very complex problem (that bitcoin does not have) but that is introduced by lightning. It could work if we had mega hubs with million of channels but this would mean a government could disrupt everything by taking down one or 2 of them



Does Segwit not help with the scaling issue and lightening network somewhat?   Although I think it's only running at about 30% of transactions currently. 

By the way I'm not a Bitcoin maximalist at all.....quote the opposite as I believe new cryptos have the advantage of building better tech!


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## tecate

Gus1970 said:


> I am afraid in this case i will have to disagree with you. Currently lightning network does not have a routing algo that can guarantee your transaction can complete.


Hi Gus1970.  I have an interest in tech but i'm not a technologist per se.  Can you clarify why Lighnting Network won't offer a solution to the scaling problem in laymans terms?


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## Negotiator

https://www.coindesk.com/peter-thiel-bitcoin-will-one-online-equivalent-gold/

_"Peter Thiel has once again endorsed bitcoin, which he recently argued is tantamount to digital gold.

And much like gold, the billionaire co-founder of PayPal conjectures that the cryptocurrency is destined to be a store of value rather than a means of payment.

"It's like bars of gold in a vault that never move," he told a CNBC reporter during a conversation at the Economic Club of New York last week, adding:

"It's sort of hedge of sorts against the whole world falling apart."

He also struck a bullish tone on bitcoin in particular - versus other cryptocurrencies - suggesting that the largest cryptocurrency by market capitalization will maintain its position.

"There will be one online equivalent to gold," he reportedly claimed, "and the one you'd bet on would be the biggest."

Despite his prediction, Thiel did not express complete confidence in bitcoin, and speculated that there is a 50 to 80 percent chance that it will have no value in the future. Nonetheless, he also noted that on the flip side, there is a 20 to 50 percent chance that it will increase in value.

"Probability weighted, it's good," he told CNBC.

Thiel's investments suggest he may be even more bullish on bitcoin than he lets on. As previously reported by CoinDesk in January, Founders Fund, of which Thiel is the co-founder, recently purchased between $15 million to $20 million worth of bitcoin across several of its funds.

He has also publicly stated that he believes critics are "underestimating" the cryptocurrency."


_
Hard to argue with a Billionaire who has a track record in fintech!


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## Sunny

Negotiator said:


> _
> Despite his prediction, Thiel did not express complete confidence in bitcoin, and speculated that there is a 50 to 80 percent chance that it will have no value in the future. Nonetheless, he also noted that on the flip side, there is a 20 to 50 percent chance that it will increase in value.
> 
> "Probability weighted, it's good," he told CNBC.
> _
> Hard to argue with a Billionaire who has a track record in fintech!



Hard to argue with that logic alright. So basically he is suggesting that people should invest in a product where there is up to an 50-80% chance that it is worth nothing but there is a 20-50%  chance it will be worth *something* (the variables can't be 'no value' and 'increase in value') because probability weighted, it is good.....Wow. Remind me not to invest in paypal anytime soon.


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## Duke of Marmalade

Sunny said:


> Hard to argue with that logic alright. So basically he is suggesting that people should invest in a product where there is up to an 50-80% chance that it is worth nothing but there is a 20-50%  chance it will be worth *something* (the variables can't be 'no value' and 'increase in value') because probability weighted, it is good.....Wow. Remind me not to invest in paypal anytime soon.


You beat me to it, _Sunny_. Wow, what a statement.


Negotiator said:


> _"It's sort of hedge of sorts against the whole world falling apart."_
> Hard to argue with a Billionaire who has a track record in fintech!


I suppose if you are a billionaire your financial worries do focus on the "whole world falling apart".  Why bitcoin would be the saviour in that situation beats me.


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## Sunny

Duke of Marmalade said:


> I suppose if you are a billionaire your financial worries do focus on the "whole world falling apart".  Why bitcoin would be the saviour in that situation beats me.



I love the _'It's a sort of hedge of sorts'_ line.........


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## TheBigShort

Duke of Marmalade said:


> Why bitcoin would be the saviour in that situation beats me.



That's a fair point. But as of today it is an option nonetheless. I suspect the development of private, out-of-monetary system money, is at the embryonic stage. It may still fall flat on its face, but the potential to have this as an option is clearly developing track. Currently bitcoin is lead option in that regard. That said, other currencies/coins/technologies are apparently coming on-stream that may replace bitcoin.
The point being, the way we transact financially with one another is changing in my opinion.

Just as aside, it occurs to me that there is a sense amongst the ABC's that holders of bitcoin are risking everything! This notion is reflected in another thread 'Taxes on Cryptocurrency'.
The reality I suspect is somewhat very different. From my own perspective I went on a speculative spurge of just under €3,000 and in the timeframe that I bought and sold, bitcoin went up 400%. I was able to benefit by a near 100% profit as its price began to decline. My total remaining stake in bitcoin is around €600. Hardly the stuff of religious fanaticism is it?

Ironically, given BB's dogged views on this and his on going spreadbet (unless he has now taken his own advice and cashed-in), I would hazard a guess that the poster most exposed to losing money on bitcoin is BB!


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## Firefly

TheBigShort said:


> My total remaining stake in bitcoin is around €600. Hardly the stuff of religious fanaticism is it?



I would have thought, for all your postings and arguments, you would have more skin in the game!


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## Negotiator

TheBigShort said:


> Just as aside, it occurs to me that there is a sense amongst the ABC's that holders of bitcoin are risking everything! This notion is reflected in another thread 'Taxes on Cryptocurrency'.
> The reality I suspect is somewhat very different. From my own perspective I went on a speculative spurge of just under €3,000 and in the timeframe that I bought and sold, bitcoin went up 400%. I was able to benefit by a near 100% profit as its price began to decline. My total remaining stake in bitcoin is around €600. Hardly the stuff of religious fanaticism is it?



Well said, I'm in a similar situation but it was with alt coins and the numbers are a bit different. If I lost every cent on on current holdings I would still be sitting on a tidy profit. Even if I had lost everything on my initial capital invested it wouldn't have made any material difference to my finances. 

I don't think anyone (including crypto enthusiasts) would consider crypto trading/investing anything other than extremely risky. Yes some people put more money in than perhaps they should but that's the same with everything. A well known Irish broadcaster practically his life savings into the banks because they were a blue chip safe investment.....he pretty much lost everything, go figure! 



TheBigShort said:


> I would hazard a guess that the poster most exposed to losing money on bitcoin is BB!



If this is true, the irony of it!


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## Negotiator

Sunny said:


> Hard to argue with that logic alright. So basically he is suggesting that people should invest in a product where there is up to an 50-80% chance that it is worth nothing but there is a 20-50%  chance it will be worth *something* (the variables can't be 'no value' and 'increase in value') because probability weighted, it is good.....Wow. Remind me not to invest in paypal anytime soon.



He never suggested that anyone puts any money into cryptos. He was merely giving his opinion what he thinks about it. The percentages he mentions suggest it's a very risky trade.....that's hardly surprising to anyone!


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## Duke of Marmalade

Negotiator said:


> _"Peter Thiel has once again endorsed bitcoin, which he recently argued is tantamount to digital gold.
> 
> And much like gold, the billionaire co-founder of PayPal conjectures that the cryptocurrency is destined to be a *store of value *rather than a means of payment.
> 
> "It's sort of hedge of sorts against the whole world falling apart."
> 
> Despite his prediction, Thiel did not express complete confidence in bitcoin, and speculated that there is a 50 to 80 percent chance that it will have no value in the future.
> Hard to argue with a Billionaire who has a track record in fintech!_


Does this billionaire genius not realise that "store of value" and 80% chance of having no value in the future are a contradiction in terms.  He clearly sees it as  a hedge against a scenario where the "whole world has fallen apart" and out of the nuclear debris come the bitcoin community hugging their Smartphones and QR codes.  He probably has Zimbabwean dollars against the unlikely event that that currency dominates all else.  When you are a billionaire you develop all sorts of worries.

Seriously folks.  At least I have an answer to the next person who asks me should s/he invest in bitcoin.  Answer:  "Well, one of its biggest fans, PayPal billionaire, says there is an 80% chance its future value will be zero but it could be a hedge against the whole world falling apart - fill your boots if that's what you are looking for"


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## Sunny

Negotiator said:


> He never suggested that anyone puts any money into cryptos. He was merely giving his opinion what he thinks about it. The percentages he mentions suggest it's a very risky trade.....that's hardly surprising to anyone!



You said hard to argue with a fin tech billionaire. Well you are right. Simply pointing out that he is saying that there is more chance of it having zero value than any value. Hardly a ringing endorsement. Even rich people talk tripe. Look at Trump.


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## Negotiator

Duke of Marmalade said:


> and out of the nuclear debris come the bitcoin community hugging their Smartphones and QR codes



The image of this made me laugh! 

By the way he said 50-80% chance.....you were only taking the higher number. 

As I mentioned before I'm not a major fan of Bitcoin at all....I don't hold any and pretty much never have. I'm just not in the camp of it going to zero or anywhere near that. However I defo don't rule out the possibility of it, I just don't think it will.


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## Negotiator

Sunny said:


> Even rich people talk tripe. Look at Trump.



Agreed!


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## Duke of Marmalade

TheBigShort said:


> My total remaining stake in bitcoin is around €600.


B/S I don't think that is going to save you if the whole world falls apart and somehow bitcoin is the only game in town.


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## Gus1970

Duke of Marmalade said:


> Does this billionaire genius not realise that "store of value" and 80% chance of having no value in the future are a contradiction in terms.



Risky investment means that there is a non trascurable possibility that it’s value decreases sharply. For Thiel this risk is between 50 and 80%

On the other hand, risky investments have potentially very high returns and in fact old bitcoiners have easily made 100x (reads 10,000%)

It’s straight forward maths, what’s the issue?


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## Firefly

Duke of Marmalade said:


> He clearly sees it as  a hedge against a scenario where the "whole world has fallen apart" and out of the nuclear debris come the bitcoin community hugging their Smartphones and QR codes.


....desperately searching for an internet connection!

Tinned food would be a better "investment"


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## Sunny

Gus1970 said:


> Risky investment means that there is a non trascurable possibility that it’s value decreases sharply. For Thiel this risk is between 50 and 80%
> 
> On the other hand, risky investments have potentially very high returns and in fact old bitcoiners have easily made 100x (reads 10,000%)
> 
> It’s straight forward maths, what’s the issue?



Frightening if people can't people don't understand investments enough to see the problem if someone says this 'is a store of value' while in the same sentence say that 'there is 50-80% chance it will be worth nothing' and then tops that it off that there 20%-50% chance it will be worth *more*.  That is not straight forward maths. That's not even maths.


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## Sunny

Firefly said:


> ....desperately searching for an internet connection!
> 
> Tinned food would be a better "investment"



Or Brennans Bread......


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## TheBigShort

Firefly said:


> I would have thought, for all your postings and arguments, you would have more skin in the game!



Why? 
Im interested in the whole concept behind cryptocurrency and can see its usages. But as stated, ad nauseum, it is highly volatile. It would be stupid to risk more than im prepared to lose. 
Having said that, its potential to rise further is clearly there so all options are on the table.


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## Firefly

TheBigShort said:


> Why?
> Im interested in the whole concept behind cryptocurrency and can see its usages. But as stated, ad nauseum, it is highly volatile. It would be stupid to risk more than im prepared to lose.
> Having said that, its potential to rise further is clearly there so all options are on the table.



If I had put so much effort into something as you clearly have it would want to me worth my while. It is highly highly unlikely that Bitcoin will increase tenfold from its current price anytime soon and even if it did you'd only be "in" for 6k, which is still hardly something to write home about. Fair enough if you're into the Blockchain technology side of things from an academic interest I suppose.


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## TheBigShort

Duke of Marmalade said:


> B/S I don't think that is going to save you if the whole world falls apart and somehow bitcoin is the only game in town.



Who is talking about the "whole world falling apart" other than yourself?
I am conscious of the debt-levels of individuals, corporations and banks and governments in Western societies that I think are simply unsustainable. I am conscious of money-printing and financial scams perpetuated by the international banking system. All of this signals to me of instability in the monetary system. That instability has the potential to manifest itself in many ways - devaluation of currency, inflation, proxy wars, trade wars, break up of EU (or partial), increased spending on 'defence', etc, etc. 

In such circumstances _the option _to hold money outside the monetary system is a brilliant idea.


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## TheBigShort

Firefly said:


> If I had put so much effort into something as you clearly have it would want to me worth my while. It is highly highly unlikely that Bitcoin will increase tenfold from its current price anytime soon and even if it did you'd only be "in" for 6k, which is still hardly something to write home about. Fair enough if you're into the Blockchain technology side of things from an academic interest I suppose.



Equally, the effort put into detracting bitcoin no? The amounts matched on betfair for bitcoin to fall, or bitcoin price end on 2018 are paltry. 
I have a 100% profit in a short space of time on bitcoin. I accept is volatility and am not willing, at this point, to risk what I am not prepared to lose.
I would say this is consistent with most people who hold bitcoin - differing from the urban myths or house re-mortgages and millionaire pizza sellers. 
And even if my €600 goes to €6,000 tomorrow, id would€6,000 considerably more preferable to €600. 
Apologies to Negotiator, I feel I have inadvertently taken this topic off track.


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## Duke of Marmalade

TheBigShort said:


> Who is talking about the "whole world falling apart" other than yourself?


B/S you are not paying attention


Negotiator said:


> _"Peter Thiel has once again endorsed bitcoin, which he recently argued is tantamount to digital gold.
> 
> "It's sort of hedge of sorts against* the whole world falling apart*."_


This is Peter Thiel, financial and intellectual giant, haven't you heard of him? 

I wouldn't have dared bring up the prospect of Armageddon in polite company, but when such a colossus of wisdom alludes to the possibility I thought it was fair game.


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## TheBigShort

Duke of Marmalade said:


> B/S you are not paying attention



Granted, I give you that one! 

But it all boils back down to the concept of decentralised money. A concept that is taking root. Currently manifesting itself in cryptocurrencies, of which bitcoin is the market leader. 
I dont think it is going away anytime soon.


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## Negotiator

TheBigShort said:


> Apologies to Negotiator, I feel I have inadvertently taken this topic off track.



Don't worry Big Short it was inevitable. In hindsight the Peter Thiel story was going to attract the 'hot air brigade' to the conversation! 

I'll post another news story about the tech side of things to try to reset the conversation!


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## Sunny

Negotiator said:


> Don't worry Big Short it was inevitable. In hindsight the Peter Thiel story was going to attract the 'hot air brigade' to the conversation!
> 
> I'll post another news story about the tech side of things to try to reset the conversation!



Hot air? You posted the rubbish without even understanding what it said which says it all really. If you don't want people to point out how it doesn't make sense, then don't post it. Then we won't have any hot air. Actually most of your posts are just rehashes and links to what other people think. And you call others the 'hot air brigade' We can use the internet ourselves so save yourself the bother the next time you read some tripe after some vague google search and don't bother sharing it.


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## Duke of Marmalade

Gus1970 said:


> Risky investment means that there is a non trascur*able *possibility that it’s value decreases sharply. For Thiel this risk is between 50 and 80%


trascura*b*_*ile*_ as in La Donna e Mo*b*_*ile*_


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## Negotiator

Sunny said:


> Hot air? You posted the rubbish without even understanding what it said which says it all really. If you don't want people to point out how it doesn't make sense, then don't post it. Then we won't have any hot air. Actually most of your posts are just rehashes and links to what other people think. And you call others the 'hot air brigade' We can use the internet ourselves so save yourself the bother the next time you read some tripe after some vague google search and don't bother sharing it.



Fair enough Sunny but don't feel the need to participate in this thread if that's how you feel.


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## TheBigShort

Sunny said:


> Hot wair?



In fairness Sunny, I read the Negotiators post not so much as your comments were hot-air, but that you, The Duke, BB, and others consider bitcoin to be hot-air, hence 'hot-air brigade'.

In the meantime, my Twitter feed is advertising 'IBM Blockchain'.
In not sure what it is all about, a glossy ad with swirly electric blue lighting etc.
Im thinking, are IBM losing the run of themselves with all this blockchain nonsense, or is one of the biggest, and best known computer companies adopting a new technology to suit its business needs.
And if they can do it for their business needs, why cant it be done for everyone elses business needs, including perhaps, but not restricted to, a payments system that requires no over-arching central authority to verify money? 
Is this possible?


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## Firefly

TheBigShort said:


> In the meantime, my Twitter feed is advertising 'IBM Blockchain'.



You must be the most efficient civil servant in the country


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## TheBigShort

Firefly said:


> You must be the most efficient civil servant in the country



Why so?

Just so we are clear.

1) im not in work today, nor since last Wednesday. 
2) My hours of work are variable encompassing 24/7 shift patterns.
3) Unsocial hours worked (7pm-7am) are creditable with time off in lieu.

After that, lets try keep on topic? Any opinion on IBM Blockchain?


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## Duke of Marmalade

TheBigShort said:


> And if they can do it for their business needs, why cant it be done for everyone elses business needs, including perhaps, but not restricted to, a payments system that requires no over-arching central authority to verify money?
> Is this possible?


No


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## TheBigShort

Duke of Marmalade said:


> No



Well at least its a pretty decisive answer from Duke without resorting to exaggerated claims of fanaticism or the 'flat-earth' arguement.
I would however like to point you to a concept called 'cryptocurrency' that currently works off blockchain and is probably best pronounced in 'bitcoin' as, at a very minimum, potentially evidence that such a system could emerge.


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## Firefly

TheBigShort said:


> Any opinion on IBM Blockchain?



Not yet, but IBM are known for working on longer term projects / ideas, so if they have an offering in this space it is a good news story for blockchain in fairness.


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## Gus1970

Sunny said:


> That is not straight forward maths. That's not even maths



I have a phd in maths, and worked in and around it for the last 24 years


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## Gus1970

Duke of Marmalade said:


> La Donna e Mo*b*_*ile*_


La donna e’ mobile

Beyond the spellchecking, do you have anything else?


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## TheBigShort

Gus1970 said:


> I have a phd in maths, and worked in and around it for the last 24 years



Yeh, but you are not a Nobel prize winning economist...


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## Sunny

Gus1970 said:


> I have a phd in maths, and worked in and around it for the last 24 years



Ok but I still don't want to date you....

How does what he said make sense then? There is a 50-80% chance that it will be worth zero. There is a 20-50%, it will increase in value. I don't have a PHD in maths and even I can spot some problems there.....You said it was straightforward maths so sorry if I am just being stupid here...


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## ant dee

Are we sure it not the reporter's fault, cherry picking some lines for clickbait purposes and not realising it makes zero sense?
Because those quotes sound like drunken mumbling.

If I were to fill in the blanks, I would say Peter Thiel mentioned odds somewhere there, something along the lines:
"on the flip side, there is a 20 to 50 percent chance that it will increase  _X times_ in value."
Making it a fat-tail bet.
Or maybe he just said a bunch of silly stuff in front of a reporter.

In any case, the article makes no sense at all and it deserves to be made fun of!


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## Duke of Marmalade

Gus1970 said:


> La donna e’ mobile
> 
> Beyond the spellchecking, do you have anything else?


Well actually it goes a tad beyond spellchecking.  It is about the meaning of words in the English language.  "Store of value" does not allow for a non transcurabile possibility of having a future value of zero.  That would be true in Italian or any language for that matter.  How were your language skills at school?

As a professional mathematician I thought you would be appalled by the numerical diarrhoea that bitcoin miners churn out in search of easy riches.


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## TheBigShort

ant dee said:


> In any case, the article makes no sense at all and it deserves to be made fun of!



Which, the comments attributed to Thiel, or just the article itself which you have, quite rightly imo, cast doubt over its veracity?


----------



## Duke of Marmalade

Negotiator said:


> _"Peter Thiel has once again endorsed bitcoin, which he recently argued is tantamount to digital gold.
> 
> And much like gold, the billionaire co-founder of PayPal conjectures that the cryptocurrency is destined to be a store of value rather than a means of payment.
> 
> "It's like bars of gold in a vault that never move," he told a CNBC reporter during a conversation at the Economic Club of New York last week, adding:
> 
> "It's sort of hedge of sorts against the whole world falling apart."_


It has been easy to poke fun at this offering but there are interesting takeaways.  I can now see three consituencies with *wants*.  Quite distinct wants but each constituency is capable of convincing itself that bitcoin is the holy grail.

Constituency A.  (a minority of) Billionaires.  These guys have no possible financial worries from a personal point of view.  Whilst the rest of us harbour various mundane fears on the financial security front the billionaire fears only the complete meltdown of everything. (They certainly don't want the complete meltdown of everything as some in Consituency C below might want.)

Constituency B.  The criminal classes.  These guys hanker for a store of value beyond the glare of the central authorities.

Consituency C.  The disciples of Shortie Syndrome.  These guys want an alternative to the corrupt central banking fiat.

Interesting that none of these constituencies are really interested in bitcoin as a medium of exchange or even of long distance transfer.

Of course, the price of bitcoin today is totally decided by a fourth constituency The Speculators.  But when the bubble bursts The Speculators will melt away.  That leaves the above three constituencies.  Could it be the case that "they *want *it to be therefore it *shall *be".

With these thoughts in mind I am coming to the view that perhaps the price of bitcoin will not go to zero so I tend not to agree with Mr PayPal's 50% - 80% chance that it will.

I stick by my earlier prediction that the price of bitcoin will be around pi^.5 (1.77) by end year (are you impressed _Gus1970_?)  but it might stay around that level.

Of course I have not altered my view that its *value *is zero, which I would have thought was obvious to any thinking person or mathematician for that matter.


----------



## TheBigShort

Duke of Marmalade said:


> Consituency C. The disciples of Shortie Syndrome. These guys want an alternative to the corrupt central banking fiat.



Far from wanting it to happen, just aware that it _may _happen, to lessor or greater degrees. Which probably brings us to Constituency D: The Comfortable Classes. These people are good hard-working educated people. They command good salaries, and in many respects are pillars of society. They heard of the Great Recession, but probably think the whole thing was over-blown, the media after all, love nothing more than good hardship stories.
For sure, they had to pay some more taxes, and business was tight for a period. They delayed upgrading the car for a year or two. Settled for just one two-week holiday and dropped the some of the Ryanair weekend breaks to Milan and Barcelona. They even discovered that when the dishwasher brokedown you could pay to get it fixed instead of buying a brand new one.
These are good people. They will never be in constituencey A, but that is not the aim, the aim is keep as far away from constituency B as possible. They know the system works for them in that way.


----------



## Firefly

TheBigShort said:


> Which probably brings us to Constituency D: The Comfortable Classes. These people are good hard-working educated people. They command good salaries, and in many respects are pillars of society. They heard of the Great Recession, but probably think the whole thing was over-blown, the media after all, love nothing more than good hardship stories.
> For sure, they had to pay some more taxes, and business was tight for a period. They delayed upgrading the car for a year or two. Settled for just one two-week holiday and dropped the some of the Ryanair weekend breaks to Milan and Barcelona. They even discovered that when the dishwasher brokedown you could pay to get it fixed instead of buying a brand new one.


Dropping the cleaner to once a week was the hardest part!


----------



## Gus1970

Sunny said:


> How does what he said make sense then? There is a 50-80% chance that it will be worth zero. There is a 20-50%, it will increase in value. I don't have a PHD in maths and even I can spot some problems there.



There is no problem there. 
Can you point it out to me?

I will give you similar example:
There is a 90% chance that the returns on your bet on Watford to beat Liverpool will go to zero

But if your bet is successful you will multiply your money by X


----------



## Duke of Marmalade

Gus1970 said:


> La donna e’ mobile
> 
> Beyond the spellchecking, do you have anything else?


If you are going to make pompous references to mathematics at least try and get your spelling correct.


----------



## Gus1970

Duke of Marmalade said:


> As a professional mathematician I thought you would be appalled by the numerical diarrhoea that bitcoin miners churn out in search of easy riches.



On the other hand i am extremely impressed by a system that is able to work and self regulate only running on maths


----------



## Gus1970

Duke of Marmalade said:


> If you are going to make pompous references to mathematics at least try and get your spelling correct.



You have replied to that message twice already, i see you growing inpatient to my lack of response.

English is not my first language, honestly writing here is starting to feel uncomfortable for me


----------



## Duke of Marmalade

_Gus1970 _The following is the Math behind bitcoin:

_nonce=0
Start Loop: nonce = nonce+1
x=sha256(block)
if x >difficulty  loop
 end loop and award yourself 12.5 bitcoin_

the loop these days runs billions of times so as to time the prizes at one every 10 minutes

Some people are impressed by this "math".  I myself, a mathematics amateur, find it disgusting.  I presume you as a professional also find it so.

Apologies if your use of the Italian originated mathematical term was not a pompous gesture.


----------



## Firefly

A disturbing "use case" for blockchain:

https://www.theguardian.com/technol...se-imagery-bitcoin-blockchain-illegal-content

And a worrying note from the researchers..

_“Our analysis shows that certain content, eg, illegal pornography, can render the mere possession of a blockchain illegal,” . “Although court rulings do not yet exist, legislative texts from countries such as Germany, the UK, or the USA suggest that illegal content such as [child abuse imagery] can make the blockchain illegal to possess for all users.”

“Since all blockchain data is downloaded and persistently stored by users, they are liable for any objectionable content added to the blockchain by others. Consequently, it would be illegal to participate in a blockchain-based systems as soon as it contains illegal content,” the researchers wrote._


----------



## Gus1970

Duke of Marmalade said:


> Some people are impressed by this "math".  I myself, a mathematics amateur, find it disgusting.  I presume you as a professional also find it so.



It’s not about how complex something is or looks like being, it is about the problem that it solves.

A famous compatriot of mine once said: “simplicity is the ultimate sophistication”


----------



## Gus1970

Duke of Marmalade said:


> the loop these days runs billions of times so as to time the prizes at one every 10 minutes



BTW it is called brute force algorithm, there is nothing wrong with it from a mathematical point of view, as it is the most efficient way to solve the problem


----------



## Duke of Marmalade

Gus1970 said:


> There is no problem there.
> Can you point it out to me?
> 
> I will give you similar example:
> There is a 90% chance that the returns on your bet on Watford to beat Liverpool will go to zero
> 
> But if your bet is successful you will multiply your money by X


The sample space is {0,> current price, 0<current price}.  Mr PayPal would appear to be giving the third of these events zero probability which is not a credible model.  Watford v Liverpool is a discrete sample space so intermediate results like “Watford sort of win” are ruled out.


Gus1970 said:


> BTW it is called brute force algorithm, there is nothing wrong with it from a mathematical point of view, as it is the most efficient way to solve the problem


but it sure ain’t Bella The problem by the way is how to make the competition last 10 minutes. I can think of easier solutions and I don’t understand why the problem was set in the first place.


----------



## Gus1970

Duke of Marmalade said:


> I can think of easier solutions and I don’t understand why the problem was set in the first place.



Go on shoot, i’ll make a pull request early in the morning


----------



## Duke of Marmalade

Gus1970 said:


> Go on shoot, i’ll make a pull request early in the morning


Very easy.  The whole thing is time stamped.  So last valid block before the 10 mins are up would seem fine to me and would save an awful lot of electricity.


----------



## Gus1970

Ok, before I write the code, please answer a couple of questions,
1) what makes a block valid?
2) how do boxes agree it's valid?


----------



## Gus1970

Nodes was auto corrected into boxes (sorry)


----------



## Duke of Marmalade

Gus1970 said:


> Ok, before I write the code, please answer a couple of questions,
> 1) what makes a block valid?
> 2) how do nodes agree it's valid?


In the early days the difficulty level was very very low compared to today.  The cryptography ensures that validation of a block is relatively easy.  The difficulty level has been increased by the protocol not to reinforce integrity but to regulate the release of bitcoin as with the spectacular rise in the price more and more CPU power entered the game in search of riches out of nothing.  Satoshi would certainly have done things differently if he knew then that bitcoin would increase in price from 5,000 BTC per pizza to $10,000 per BTC.


----------



## Gus1970

Duke, it seems you grasp the self regulating bit in proof of work, satoshi designed it and knew it would be antifragile.

Now can you answer my 2 questions so i can write some code that improves it based on your suggestions and do a pull request?


----------



## Duke of Marmalade

Gus1970 said:


> Duke, it seems you grasp the self regulating bit in proof of work, satoshi designed it and knew it would be antifragile.
> 
> Now can you answer my 2 questions so i can write some code that improves it based on your suggestions and do a pull request?


Oh, I would have to refer to my _Antonopoulos _bible to answer that.  Can you not put a bit of effort in yourself?


----------



## ant dee

Duke of Marmalade said:


> Antonopoulos


Speaking of whom, he refers to the accumulated proof of work on the bitcoin blockchain as a 'monument'.

The hashing is important because is ensures that certain amount of energy is used (wasted?? not in his opinion...) upon adding each block.
And each further block, adds more cumulative work (energy) on the chain, moving the security of the past transactions further towards 'immutable'.

In the early days the whole system would collapse with just one of todays ASIC mining machine working against it.
Of course the whole market cap back then would struggle to cover the miner's electricity bills...

The 10-min average target is (as well as controlling a set inflation rate) to ensure the network reaches consensus upon finding a block, and reduce the forks.
Make sure  the nodes communicate the new block to the network before new blocks are found.
Some times you get small forks like that, usually they are resolved in 2 blocks. Highly unlikely scenarios have seen 6 block forks.


Satoshi surely did not know everything and could hardly predict 9 years into the future.
It is pointless to speculate on what Satoshi would do. For all we know he is still around making pull requests.
Bitcoin works like it is now, and we have many developers working on improving it.



Duke of Marmalade said:


> Very easy. The whole thing is time stamped. So last valid block before the 10 mins are up would seem fine to me and would save an awful lot of electricity.


Ah, great idea... All we need is a central location and a central entity to confirm the last block before the timestamp, cant wait for the pull request!


----------



## Duke of Marmalade

ant dee said:


> Ah, great idea... All we need is a central location and a central entity to confirm the last block before the timestamp, cant wait for the pull request!


Ok, _ant dee_, I admit to being a bit out of my depth at this stage.  Nonetheless, my sense is that the enormous size of the loops is not in any way necessary to achieve the two objectives of maintaining the integrity of the blockchain and eliminating inflation. But if you tell me I have got that wrong, I haven't the energy to dive further into my Antonopolous, so I will accept your word.


----------



## ant dee

Duke of Marmalade said:


> Ok, _ant dee_, I admit to being a bit out of my depth at this stage.  Nonetheless, my sense is that the enormous size of the loops is not in any way necessary to achieve the two objectives of maintaining the integrity of the blockchain and eliminating inflation. But if you tell me I have got that wrong, I haven't the energy to dive further into my Antonopolous, so I will accept your word.



Surely Satoshi wanted us all to mine with a couple of devices at each house. I doubt the ASICs were foreseen.

You aren't wrong, in the sense that it might work fine with half the hashpower.
But immutability is a moving target.
If miners stop adding up hashpower:

some (very rich!) bad actor can start collecting his own
secretly mine his own valid chain with whatever transactions he chooses
and at some point when he surpasses the accumulated proof-of-work
he will broadcast his valid chain
and since it will be longer it will invalidate the original one
So, electricity used in hashpower is never wasted, it just might be an overkill in security.


----------



## Negotiator

ant dee said:


> some (very rich!) bad actor can start collecting his own
> 
> secretly mine his own valid chain with whatever transactions he chooses
> 
> and at some point when he surpasses the accumulated proof-of-work
> 
> he will broadcast his valid chain
> 
> and since it will be longer it will invalidate the original one



Whilst this is theoretically possible, once discovered wouldn't the value of BTC drop to practically zero and effectively be a waste of time and money by the bad actor?


What about Quantum computing, do you think this will become an issue for Cryptos that are not quantum proof?   If so, when do you think it might become as issue?


----------



## ant dee

Maybe the bad actor wants only to crash bitcoin.

About quantum computers i am not sure. There are cryptography upgrades to make something quantum-proof.
And I hear that, basically you have one shot to break something with quantum.
After that, everyone knows it is out there, and they upgrade.
It is just as easy to hack central banks and military bases, if you have a quantum computer.
Arguably the surprise attack will be wasted hacking Satoshi's coins.


----------



## Negotiator

ant dee said:


> Maybe the bad actor wants only to crash bitcoin.



I never thought of that.......it would make for the greatest short trade in history!


----------



## TheBigShort

ant dee said:


> Maybe the bad actor wants only to crash bitcoin.



Governments?

Thinking with my conspiratorial hat on (I rarely take it off ), it wouldnt be beyond the notions of governments to use bitcoin as a tool to manipulate fiat currency markets, would it?
All unofficial of course.


----------



## TheBigShort

Some of the predictions above are typically outlandish.

However, going beyond the noise, the concept of one world currency has already been in train for a considerable time, some 50 years ago apparently.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/apr/24/imf-populism-nationalism-sdr-reserve-currency

With that in mind, what would a world currency look like? How would it operate? Who would be in-charge, or what would back it?

Clearly the Euro is flawed, a one-glove-fits-all approach applied to a cohort of disparate economies pulling and moving in all directions.
So perhaps, it is simply a pipe dream, but not really ever practical?

Unless of course....such a world currency was decentralized? Out of the control of governments and central banks interference? Sovereignty resting in the holder of the currency?

Perhaps a world currency would simply be an internet currency? But local fiat currencies in place in sovereign jurisdictions?

I don't know, but it is interesting to watch all this develop, interesting times ahead.


----------



## Negotiator

TheBigShort said:


> I don't know, but it is interesting to watch all this develop, interesting times ahead.



It sure is gonna be fascinating to watch.....I've been stockpiling the popcorn for a while now, wouldn't miss it for the world!


----------



## RichInSpirit

Negotiator said:


> What about Quantum computing, do you think this will become an issue for Cryptos that are not quantum proof?   If so, when do you think it might become as issue?



Are Quantum computers real or just theoretical as of yet ?


----------



## Negotiator

RichInSpirit said:


> Are Quantum computers real or just theoretical as of yet ?



No, my understanding is that it's years down the road before it would even become an issue for cryptos that are not quantum proof.


----------



## RichInSpirit

I speculate that there's at least one person in the world that can do the hashing etc in their head. The human brain could still be better than any computer that exists.


----------



## Duke of Marmalade

The Congregation of Faith in the Vatican today in its Easter message said it was considering using blockchain to monitor the issuance of indulgences.  Whilst simony - the sale of indulgences - has long since been eradicated, the Vatican has expressed concern in recent years with the supply of indulgences. In a welcome development nuns as well as priests will be permitted to act as nodes though miner nodes will be restricted to bishops.

The overall supply has not yet been decided. Father Alonso Xabi, a leading authority on the subject, estimates that given the World's 700 million catholics the protocol should set the limit at about 200 bn years in purgatory.


----------



## TheBigShort

Always looking for an angle to make a quick buck those Roman Catholics. It wouldnt surprise me if they are still trying to peddle that after-life stuff...what they call it?, oh yeah...the Resurrection


----------



## MrEarl

Hello,

I see [broken link removed] that some of the Russian hotels intend to accept payments in Bitcoin during the FIFA World Cup.

It will an interesting experiment, not least to see what sort of volumes are transacted (assuming we ever get to hear).


----------



## Negotiator

MrEarl said:


> Hello,
> 
> I see [broken link removed] that some of the Russian hotels intend to accept payments in Bitcoin during the FIFA World Cup.
> 
> It will an interesting experiment, not least to see what sort of volumes are transacted (assuming we ever get to hear).



Sepp Blatter might be the first to take them up on the offer! 

Might suit certain people who don't want to give their credit card details to a Russian hotel not to mention the exchange rates and associated bank charges etc. Will be interesting to see the volumes indeed.


----------



## Negotiator

*Dr. Rolf Werner Head of Central Europe at Fujitsu joins the IOTA Foundation*

https://blog.iota.org/welcome-rolf-werner-to-the-iota-foundation-13822ea8b281


Another heavyweight joins the IOTA Foundation adding to the long list of key industry players getting involved in the machine to machine economy. When the Trinity Wallet is released after Beta testing, it will be one of the best available. You will be able to see how slick the Tangle actually is by transferring IOTAs without any transaction fees and will only take a minute to complete (instantaneously once the network matures).


----------



## Negotiator

Ivan makes a good point that you can't have Blockchain Technology without Cryptocurrencies. Watch from 2:20 up to 6:50

https://youtu.be/QVXHj5dOoww


----------



## Negotiator

*China Launches a $1.6 Billion Blockchain Fund*

https://coinwrath.com/china-launched-a-1bln-blockchain-fund/


Ya gotta hand it to the Chinese government.....a blanket outright ban on Cryptos and then they plough $400m of their own cash into Cryptos and allow a Crypto fund of $1.6bn. I wonder if they'd pump that sort of twine into something if they thought it was just 'hot air!'


----------



## Duke of Marmalade

Negotiator said:


> *China Launches a $1.6 Billion Blockchain Fund*
> 
> https://coinwrath.com/china-launched-a-1bln-blockchain-fund/
> 
> 
> Ya gotta hand it to the Chinese government.....a blanket outright ban on Cryptos and then they plough $400m of their own cash into Cryptos and allow a Crypto fund of $1.6bn. I wonder if they'd pump that sort of twine into something if they thought it was just 'hot air!'


”_digitized_ _sovereign_ _currency_” this is the antithesis of bitcoin.


----------



## Negotiator

*It's estimated that by 2025, there will be 100 Billion global IoT devices, sending data and transferring value in the new Machine-to-Machine reality. As everything becomes a "smart device" in the coming Economy of Things, what will be the underlying protocol that makes this all work?

Terry Shane, Founder of the bIOTAsphere in Toronto, and CEO of Refined Data Solutions explains why IOTA is the only Distributed Ledger Technology available today, that can achieve the scale and utility required.

If you are hoping that blockchain-based solutions were going to solve for this, Terry suggests that you might want to think again about where to place your bets.

This presentation was delivered as a keynote speech at the Blockchain Opportunities Summit, held in Toronto, Canada.*

https://youtu.be/0KDRc23Vj7w


An excellent presentation by Terry Shane. This guy has a pretty decent ability to see around corners and sees IOTA as a potentially major player (the only player at the moment in fact) in the machine to machine economy.

100 Billion connected devices is no small number. The second part of the presentation is the most interesting as he goes through potential use cases etc.

This is beyond Blockchain folks so anyone who wants to stay stuck in the past, I'm warning you this video may be seriously harmful to your health!


----------



## MrEarl

[broken link removed]



> Bithumb, South Korea’s largest cryptocurrency-to-fiat exchange and the world’s 6th largest digital currency trading platform ........ has installed cryptocurrency-accepting kiosks across the country, at restaurants, cafes, stores, and malls.



So, the USA has ATMs where you can buy cryptos, South Korea now have terminals where you can pay for various small goods in twelve different crypto currencies, online giants such as Expedia and Microsoft accept Bitcoin as a form of payment, and little old Dublin even has a crypto cafe... this worthless oul crypto coin stuff might just take off yet !


----------



## Negotiator

> In South Korea, the largest hotel booking platform and second biggest e-commerce platform have started to integrate cryptocurrencies due to their partnerships with Bithumb. Soon, the majority of restaurants and cafes in Seoul will be equipped with cryptocurrency kiosks, as seen in the photograph shared by Ver.



Interesting article. South Korea are generally ahead of the possy when it comes to technology.


----------



## Brendan Burgess

Duke of Marmalade said:


> ”_digitized_ _sovereign_ _currency_” this is the antithesis of bitcoin.



Duke 

Why do you have to ruin all these guys' faith with cold logic?  It's really cruel. 

Brendan


----------



## MrEarl

Brendan Burgess said:


> Duke
> 
> Why do you have to ruin all these guys' faith with cold logic?  It's really cruel.
> 
> Brendan




Hello,

I'm so glad that Mr. Burgess and the Duke weren't around, back when early man was trying to find ways to make fire.... because if they had been, then I reckon we'd only be able to thank them for the cold, rather than the _cold logic_ that they now offer us 


.


----------



## Negotiator

https://www.finder.com.au/first-iota-electric-vehicle-charging-station-going-live-in-netherlands


More real use cases for IOTA and the machine to machine economy. No other Crypto at the moment can perform micro payments as efficiently as IOTA.


----------



## Páid




----------



## Negotiator

IOTA Ecosystem finally up and running. Watch the community stats explode over the coming months. This is Blockchain 3.0 in the form of The Tangle.....watch this space! 


https://ecosystem.iota.org/


----------



## tecate

Negotiator said:


> IOTA Ecosystem finally up and running. Watch the community stats explode over the coming months. This is Blockchain 3.0 in the form of The Tangle.....watch this space!


I've not been following closely - find it hard to even have the time to follow BTC adequately.  Have these developments been priced in with IOTA do you think or is there dtsti value there?


----------



## Negotiator

tecate said:


> I've not been following closely - find it hard to even have the time to follow BTC adequately.  Have these developments been priced in with IOTA do you think or is there dtsti value there?



Difficult to answer Tecate but I don't think everything is priced in because only the hardcore IOTA followers will be up to date with all the developments in this tech. I've been involved in IOTA for over a year and have seen it run up from 30c to $5.50 in a short period of time when there was a misunderstanding that Microsoft were partnering with IOTA. People find it hard to get their head around IOTA and The Tangle but once they do they tend to get very enthusiastic about it.

IOTA is doing an incredible amount of work in the background but the work they are doing won't be visible for some time. They have big companies banging their door down to collaborate. However the biggest challenge they have right now is switching off the coordinator as soon as possible (may take another year to two before they can) as this allows the FUDsters to accuse it of not being decentralized. But it's an essential piece of kit until the network reaches a certain amount of volume. All cryptos with new protocols had to go through this in some shape or form in it's early days ie- BTC/ETH etc

If this gets adopted as the standard for the IoT industry then it's going to be absolutely massive in my opintion. It will make ETH look small in comparison. So to answer your question, I honestly think there is a massive amount of upside for IOTA but needless to say it's not without it's (very high) risks!


----------



## Negotiator

PS - If you want to get a round up of IOTA's developments each week then follow this German dude on his YouTube channel here (he has an english version also). It's very informative and will save you trawling through all the news for the week.


----------



## tecate

@Negotiator : Just doing a preliminary read up on IOTA.  Seems impressive.  What competition does it face in terms of alternative coins/projects?  Clearly, it's fundamentally different to Ethereum & BTC with it not having miners or fees.


----------



## Negotiator

tecate said:


> @Negotiator : Just doing a preliminary read up on IOTA.  Seems impressive.  What competition does it face in terms of alternative coins/projects?  Clearly, it's fundamentally different to Ethereum & BTC with it not having miners or fees.



Hi Tecate, 

The closest competitor is IoT Chain which is effectively Chinese so probably will target mostly Chinese companies. I don't know a whole lot about it but I probably should research it more and maybe put a few Bob into it as a hedge. It doesn't have to be an either or too because it's going to be a massive industry (circa 75 Billion connected devices in the foreseeable future). There another Crypto beginning with W but I forget the name of it. It's not really a competitor though.

That said IOTA is light years ahead in this space. When QUBIC is fully launched it's going to be a game changer. IOTA is still early and ugly right now but it's rapidly developing.

Follow Limo at TheTangleBlog.com and you'll be brought up to speed pretty quickly. Check out some of the interviews with the founders particularly David Stønsebø.

It's completely different to BTC and ETH but solves a lot of the problems they have with regards scaling and fees etc hence why it's considered Blockchain 3.0 (it's actually blockless and doesn't have a chain per se).

It has it's fair share of detractors and Doom and gloom merchants because it's so radical and disruptive not to mention vested interest from miners etc.


----------



## tecate

Thanks for the info Negotiator.  I need to go and do some homework now.  IOTA certainly seems interesting enough to warrant that at the very least.


----------



## Negotiator

tecate said:


> Thanks for the info Negotiator.  I need to go and do some homework now.  IOTA certainly seems interesting enough to warrant that at the very least.



No worries Tecate. Here's a good starting point: [broken link removed]  but there's plenty of good guides and articles on Medium too. Let me know if you have any questions.


----------



## tecate

@Negotiator: Have been doing some gentle research on this (still plenty to do).  I just wondered if I could bounce a few points off you.

IOTA does seem to be a progressive project but it's led me to look at what the potential downsides may be (in a constructive way as I may buy in if I can account for them).

A few things that popped up here;

https://www.media.mit.edu/posts/iota-response/

- MIT suggest that IOTA went down for 3 days and needed the intervention of 'the coordinator'.  They say this proves that IOTA can't be decentralised as it needs the coordinator.
I watched an interview with David Sonstebo in which he explained many decentralised crypto needed a similar steer initially before becoming properly decentralised.
Any idea how the system went down? What do you think of the criticisms re. lack of decentralisation?

- IOTA Dev's removed funds from IOTA accounts?
I guess once the coordinator is withdrawn, this will no longer be possible?

- They make the point that it's not strictly fee free as the user has to confirm 2 other transactions.  Surely, this isn't a big deal?  You wouldn't need to leave a machine running all day to achieve this? Does it not all happen together in a very short space of time?

- The biggest deal was made by MIT of IOTA rolling its own hash function without rigorous testing...and their discovery of a vulnerability.

You think that whilst the coordinator is still in play, it's acceptable to follow this practice...and that by the time the coordinator is taken away, there won't be anything to worry about as it will have been fully tested?


----------



## Negotiator

tecate said:


> @Negotiator: Have been doing some gentle research on this (still plenty to do).  I just wondered if I could bounce a few points off you.
> 
> IOTA does seem to be a progressive project but it's led me to look at what the potential downsides may be (in a constructive way as I may buy in if I can account for them).
> 
> A few things that popped up here;
> 
> https://www.media.mit.edu/posts/iota-response/
> 
> - MIT suggest that IOTA went down for 3 days and needed the intervention of 'the coordinator'.  They say this proves that IOTA can't be decentralised as it needs the coordinator.
> I watched an interview with David Sonstebo in which he explained many decentralised crypto needed a similar steer initially before becoming properly decentralised.
> Any idea how the system went down? What do you think of the criticisms re. lack of decentralisation?
> 
> - IOTA Dev's removed funds from IOTA accounts?
> I guess once the coordinator is withdrawn, this will no longer be possible?
> 
> - They make the point that it's not strictly fee free as the user has to confirm 2 other transactions.  Surely, this isn't a big deal?  You wouldn't need to leave a machine running all day to achieve this? Does it not all happen together in a very short space of time?
> 
> - The biggest deal was made by MIT of IOTA rolling its own hash function without rigorous testing...and their discovery of a vulnerability.
> 
> You think that whilst the coordinator is still in play, it's acceptable to follow this practice...and that by the time the coordinator is taken away, there won't be anything to worry about as it will have been fully tested?



Good questions Tecate, you got to some of the biggest issues facing IOTA very quickly (although there a number of others too). I'll answer your queries one by one....

- MIT suggest that IOTA went down for 3 days and needed the intervention of 'the coordinator'.  They say this proves that IOTA can't be decentralised as it needs the coordinator.
I watched an interview with David Sonstebo in which he explained many decentralised crypto needed a similar steer initially before becoming properly decentralised.
Any idea how the system went down? What do you think of the criticisms re. lack of decentralisation?

The whole MIT saga through up a lot of misinformation at the time and caused all sorts of panic. However there were very valid issues that MIT raised with IOTA in relation to security. In my opinion, neither IOTA nor MIT handled the whole situation very well (the usual ego clashes between 2 very smart guys/teams). That said, IOTA patched up the security vulnerabilities and updated the software promptly before anyone really became aware of the issue. It was afterwards that a row effectively broke out in public but if you look deeper you will see that there are vested interests involved (surprise surprise!) as some of the same guys were working on a competing Crypto called Enigma if I remember correctly (you might want to double check this though).

With regard the Coordinator (COO for short) being turned off for 3 days, this wasn't related to the security vulnerability that MIT highlighted. It was related to the IOTA Foundation (IF for short) seizing IOTA that was being used by addresses that had already sent IOTA ie- reusing addresses. It's a bit technical but basically addresses should only be used once when sending (receiving is fine multiple times). 

So the IF did this to prevent IOTAs being stolen or 'double spent' from effected addresses. Whilst this was known by any savvy holders of IOTA, not everyone understood it and overlooked the issues. Bear in mind this was last year and amid a Crypto frenzy so people were not taking the time to understand how it worked. These issues will all be solved with the new Trinity Wallet and various upgrades etc so it's really just an issue right now because we're at the early stages. 

With regards the criticisms of it not being decentralized, firstly it's a very valid question and we would all prefer if the COO didn't need to be in place. However it's a necessary evil to allow the network to grow and mature enough before it is removed but rest assured it will be removed at some stage down the road. The founders won't give a date but my guess is that it will happen within the next couple of years. It is worth mentioning however that the network can function perfectly without it but it just leaves it vulnerable to a 33% attack if the network isn't big enough and enough Nodes running etc. For me it's not a major issue. but needless to say that it will be great when it's removed. As you mentioned, similar systems were required for other protocols in the early days.


- IOTA Dev's removed funds from IOTA accounts?
I guess once the coordinator is withdrawn, this will no longer be possible?

I mostly answered this above but yes I think it wouldn't be possible once the COO is removed as far as I know.


- They make the point that it's not strictly fee free as the user has to confirm 2 other transactions.  Surely, this isn't a big deal?  You wouldn't need to leave a machine running all day to achieve this? Does it not all happen together in a very short space of time?

You're absolutely right, it really is no bid deal. You simply confirm 2 previous transactions and it can even be done by your phone.....piece of cake. In fact that's one of the great things about IOTA, the network will be helped by eveyones mobile phones when they are sending micro transactions......the more transactions the more secure the network becomes. There are light nodes (ie- your mobile phone or pc/wallet) and full nodes so you defo don't need to run a machine all day to create a transaction. In fact it generally takes no more than a minute or two to confirm and complete a transaction and this should get faster as time goes on. 




- The biggest deal was made by MIT of IOTA rolling its own hash function without rigorous testing...and their discovery of a vulnerability.

You think that whilst the coordinator is still in play, it's acceptable to follow this practice...and that by the time the coordinator is taken away, there won't be anything to worry about as it will have been fully tested?

There is no getting away from this. Many industry experts say that this is a MAJOR NO NO to roll your own crypto. However this is revolutionary tech and they felt it was best to go down this route. I don't understand all the technical details but if I understand it correctly it is mostly to do with Hardware using less energy with Ternary systems and because they are specifically going after IoT devices it is essential that they use the bare minimum power to use IOTA on the tangle. The IOTA founders are involved in JINN processors (although it's a bit vague exactly how) as these will need to be used (or something similar) for everything to run as efficiently as possible. Think of how perhaps a parking meter accepting payment from an electric vehicle will need to run for years on a very low amount of power etc. Another example might be a shipping container running for months constantly running data over The Tangle. 

Again I've kind of answered most issues related to the COO above but I definitely won't be worried when they take it away because they will only do it when they know it's ready to be removed. They also mentioned before that it might end up being a gradual process where they removed it for periods of time and increase the intervals while it's removed over time.


Hope this gives you a bit of food for thought but you're looking in the right areas while doing your research. Hopefully you will be convinced by the end of it but a project like this is very high risk as you know but it is very exciting to be a part of it. They are making good progress though and going about everything in the right way. The Founders are not exactly the best people to push and market this technology in my opinion but they are building a great team that will make the IF a lot more polished with regards dealing with big corporates and the general public.

I wouldn't be surprised if IOTA slips back to the circa $1.50 range over the coming weeks but Qubic is beginning to emerge and when that is launched coupled with the new Trinity Wallet I would expect there to be a fairly big surge in price so watch out for that. However this is really a 3 to 5 year play in my opinion!

Happy IOTA'ing!


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## MrEarl

Negotiator said:


> ....
> 
> Happy IOTA'ing!



That's gotta go in your auto-signature here on AAM


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## tecate

@Negotiator : Cracking response - thanks for the insight, getting me further up to speed.

Personally, I'm not bothered about a long lead time to fruition.  That's how BTC panned out for me.

However, others are making the point that time needed to be market ready is highly relevant.  The suggestion is that another project may not carry as many advantages but that being much quicker off the mark will mean that gets adopted rather than IOTA. Kind of like the VHS/Betamax scenario.  Not quite sure what to make of that argument..


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## Negotiator

tecate said:


> @Negotiator : Cracking response - thanks for the insight, getting me further up to speed.
> 
> Personally, I'm not bothered about a long lead time to fruition.  That's how BTC panned out for me.
> 
> However, others are making the point that time needed to be market ready is highly relevant.  The suggestion is that another project may not carry as many advantages but that being much quicker off the mark will mean that gets adopted rather than IOTA. Kind of like the VHS/Betamax scenario.  Not quite sure what to make of that argument..



It's a very good argument about a competitor getting there first but here's how I look at it.....

Cryptos as we all know is full of Cowboys and IOTA have gone through a painstaking process to set up their foundation in Germany. This gives them maximum credibility when dealing with big corporates. Furthermore IOTA are at the forefront of a number of official organizations like the IoT Alliance and Mobility on the Blockchain Initiative (MOBI). These organizations have some of the major players in their for fields and it's already bearing fruit for IOTA with the likes of BOSCH, Fujitsu, Volkswagen and many others collaborating with IOTA. 

So all in all I think IOTA are already way ahead of the Possie. Bear in mind that a standard protocol needs to be created so this is exactly what IOTA needs to do to get the major players on board. Make no mistake about it, it's a monumental task bit it could also be a monumental project if they can crack it..... think 75 Billion connected devices preinitiali using this technology in the next decade or so!


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## Negotiator

PS- You're clearly an early adopter so it will be interesting to discuss more about IOTA with you as you learn more about it. Sometimes the IOTA community can be a little over-enthusiastic/biassed about IOTA (of which I'm guilty myself at times! ) so on only discusses the upside. That said there is a brilliant community around IOTA..... Clearly visible on Reddit and Discord etc


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## Negotiator

MrEarl said:


> That's gotta go in your auto-signature here on AAM



Haha....good idea Mr Earl. I tried to do it but don't know how. Is it somewhere in Profile Page or something?


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## tecate

Negotiator said:


> PS- You're clearly an early adopter so it will be interesting to discuss more about IOTA with you as you learn more about it.


Be careful what you ask for! I'm not at a point of parting with my grandchildren's inheritance but it's the first 'altcoin' I can genuinely express some interest in. Therefore, loads of questions on the way...




Negotiator said:


> Sometimes the IOTA community can be a little over-enthusiastic/biassed about IOTA (of which I'm guilty myself at times! ) so on only discusses the upside. That said there is a brilliant community around IOTA..... Clearly visible on Reddit and Discord etc


Yup, group think is a very dangerous trap that any of us can fall in to.  That's why I see greater value sometimes in discussing crypto (well BTC really) here rather than elsewhere.  I might get frustrated with Brendan et Al's viewpoint at times but it makes for a more thought out perspective as if everything is questioned, you're made think it all through.


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## Negotiator

tecate said:


> Be careful what you ask for! I'm not at a point of parting with my grandchildren's inheritance but it's the first 'altcoin' I can genuinely express some interest in. Therefore, loads of questions on the way...



Lash the family silver up on Ebay and put the farm up on Daft..... It's time too go balls deep on IOTA! Hahaha 

No problem at all, if I can answer I will. 





tecate said:


> Yup, group think is a very dangerous trap that any of us can fall in to. That's why I see greater value sometimes in discussing crypto (well BTC really) here rather than elsewhere. I might get frustrated with Brendan et Al's viewpoint at times but it makes for a more thought out perspective as if everything is questioned, you're made think it all through.



I agree, it's good to be among so many Crypto sceptics as it certainly makes you question things more deeply and be more objective etc. That said I wish there was more meaningful discussion around Cryptos on the technology and use case side as it always seems to centre around speculation and the whole value argument. 

Anyway, hopefully we'll make a few million along the way! 





Happy IOTA'ing!


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## tecate

Negotiator said:


> Lash the family silver up on Ebay and put the farm up on Daft..... It's time too go balls deep on IOTA! Hahaha


Happenstance but I did find myself balls deep proportionately in BTC for a couple of months - it wasn't fun! (First world problems)  That said, I'm still considering a substantial investment in IOTA ..but not one that will give me sleepless nights.



			
				Negotiator said:
			
		

> Hopefully we will make a few million along the way!:-D :-D :-- :-D :-D :-D :--


Stranger things have happened (oops, that's me feeding in to the speculative side of things...)


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## Brendan Burgess

Christies is having an interesting seminar in London: 

Here are some of the topics. I would probably attend if it were in Dublin. 

*Exploring Blockchain — 
Is the Art World Ready For Consensus? *

*Keynote Speaker: The Blockchain Landscape in the Art World *

*Panel discussion: Blockchain in the Art World – Digital Art 

Moderator: Jason Bailey, artnome.com
Masha McConaghy, BigchainDB/Ocean Protocol
Matt Hall, Cryptopunks
John Zettler, The R.A.R.E. Network
Yehudit Mam, DADA.nyc
*
*Panel Discussion: Blockchain in the Art World – Tokenisation and Securitisation 

Moderator: Frédéric de Senarclens, Art Market Guru
Marcelo Garcia Casil, Maecenas
Niccolò Filippo Veneri Savoia, Look Lateral
Marco Abele, TendSwiss*


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## Negotiator

*Are Irish businesses ready for a blockchain world?*

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/work/are-irish-businesses-ready-for-a-blockchain-world-1.3483176


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## Negotiator

It's oh so quiet.....shh.....shh......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Z5nmFcBGvY


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## Negotiator

@tecate This is for you.......Someone has created an all in one thread for IOTA which makes it much easier than trawling through all the different websites and resources looking for updated info about IOTA. Hope it helps.   https://www.reddit.com/r/Iota/comments/8kfrxk/iota_allinone_thread/ 

We didn't quite get down to $1.50 but still had some buying opportunities. Trinity Wallet heading into BETA soon and an update on QUBIC capabilities only 2 weeks away so keep an eye out for that!


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## tecate

@Negotiator :  Thanks for that.  Still working my way through it.  It's like peeling the layers off an onion though.  Now that I've started to get in to IOTA, I feel that I have to check out a whole host of rivals also - before I could justify taking a punt.  
I'm not in a position to put money down in any event until next month at the earliest ...so I guess I have time.


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## Negotiator

tecate said:


> @Negotiator :  Thanks for that.  Still working my way through it.  It's like peeling the layers off an onion though.  Now that I've started to get in to IOTA, I feel that I have to check out a whole host of rivals also - before I could justify taking a punt.
> I'm not in a position to put money down in any event until next month at the earliest ...so I guess I have time.



Very wise decision Tecate, you are obviously going about it the right way. I honestly don't want to persuade you one way or the other, just a heads up etc. Let me know if you have any questions though.

Another little update/announcement from IOTA this morning was confirmation that Ledger will support Trinity Wallet integration which will be very welcome indeed. This will offer a hardware wallet option for IOTA.


PS- A little teaser video in relation to QUBIC, more info revealed on June 3rd........ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUjBvawdcW8


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## MrEarl

> When one of the largest banks on the globe announces a game-changing project everyone needs to sit up and take notice. Japan’s Mitsubishi Financial Group, easily one of the top five banks in the world, is going to create its very own cryptocurrency....




 Japan Banking Giant Mitsubishi Bank to Launch Cryptocurrency in 2019


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