# student nurses... are you kidding me?



## panathon (10 Feb 2011)

It makes my blood boil, many groups have a right to protest about pay cuts, about potential job losses, about bad contracts, about recession effects BUT people who have not even achieved their degree yet protest about not being paid. I don't know any other group that gets paid to achieve a degree - it's called internship (which stretches to after achieving a degree in many careers) or work experience or free unpaid fieldwork to ensure you are capable of the bookwork, and practical work you have studied for.

It dilutes the protests that are important and necessary. Get your qualification and then give out about pay conditions. We all have to do it.


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## Guest110 (10 Feb 2011)

Totally agree with your comments. Being paid 80% of the current base rate salary is huge for a person still in college. 

We dont have the money anymore to feed all these types of things. Everyone has taken a cut, we all have to feel the pain !


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## Deiseblue (10 Feb 2011)

alexandra12 said:


> Totally agree with your comments. Being paid 80% of the current base rate salary is huge for a person still in college.
> 
> We dont have the money anymore to feed all these types of things. Everyone has taken a cut, we all have to feel the pain !



They are not actually in college during their 4th year but on a mandatory 36 week placement in a hospital.

The protest seems to have had an immediate effect as FG said they will urgently review the position if elected to Government.


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## Bronte (10 Feb 2011)

My understanding too is that they are working and therefore should be paid. This degree is only a relatively new way of becoming a nurse. Prior to this nurses trained on the job and were paid from day 1. I just caught a glimpse of the protest and I thought for very young people in a health profession some of them looked decidedly unhealthy.


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## alaskaonline (10 Feb 2011)

I wouldn't want to swap with any of them.


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## Prokofiev (10 Feb 2011)

They are doing hours that otherwise would be done by fully qualified/paid nurses...therefore they should get paid. As one of the students interviewed on the news said...it's what they were promised...that's why the nurses adopted the 4 year degree approach in the first place. they're being shafted if they get no pay.


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## Mpsox (10 Feb 2011)

panathon said:


> . I don't know any other group that gets paid to achieve a degree - it's called internship (which stretches to after achieving a degree in many careers)
> .


 
Plenty of people do, for example, when I was in UL studying for a degree, I spent 2 6 month work placements in 2 different companies over the duration of the course and got paid for it as did everyone else in my year. Why should employers get staff for free?, after all, student nurses do many of the tasks that a full time nurse does. Would you expect apprentice electricians or carpenters to work for nothing for a number of years whilst they qualify.?


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## Sunny (10 Feb 2011)

Of course they should get paid but 80% of the base salary is too high. Mpsox, I used to work for a company that hired plenty of UL students and they did real jobs and were paid well for students but were not paid 80% of a normal employees salary. Maybe you were just lucky!


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## Complainer (10 Feb 2011)

The current policy is to reduce the payment to zero after a number of years. Along with the growing enthusiasm from employers for 'internships' and the FAS WPP scheme, this is making sure that many people won't have any hope of earning a living wage until they are over 25 approx. So it is back to Mammy and Daddy to keep funding them. Nice work, FF.


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## alaskaonline (10 Feb 2011)

Sunny said:


> Of course they should get paid but 80% of the base salary is too high.


 based on what?



Sunny said:


> they did real jobs


 are you saying student nurses don't?


Sunny said:


> of a normal employees salary.


 what's a "normal" salary?




> So it is back to Mammy and Daddy to keep funding them


 let's hope they all have Mammy's & Daddy's who can financially look after them


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## Mpsox (10 Feb 2011)

Sunny said:


> Of course they should get paid but 80% of the base salary is too high. Mpsox, I used to work for a company that hired plenty of UL students and they did real jobs and were paid well for students but were not paid 80% of a normal employees salary. Maybe you were just lucky!


 
I've no idea if I got paid 80% of a normal employees salary, all I knew was that I was a student and getting paid for it which was great !! I presume it was less.

I've no arguement that the 80% could be reduced, I don't know the full job difference between a fully qualified nurse and a student, other then that I'd imagine a fully qualified nurse has certainly more responsibility and possibly works under less closer supervision.

Plenty of other examples of students/apprentices getting paid, accountants are one group that spring to mind


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## Sunny (10 Feb 2011)

alaskaonline said:


> based on what?
> 
> are you saying student nurses don't?
> what's a "normal" salary?
> ...


 
Based on the fact there is a training cost for the hospitals that has to be factored in. Based on the fact that they are not qualifed and despite saying that they do all the work of a qualified person, this is not true as there would always be a qualified person with them and who has to take all the responsibility. Based on the fact that Ireland is almost unique in making any sort of payments in this area to student nurses and we are broke.

Not sure how you can read from my statement that I said student nurses didn't do real jobs. My point was that many employers take on students but give them menial tasks that add nothing to their experience. They are simply there to do the grunt work that normal employees don't want to do. My last employer made sure that students were given proper roles for the time they were with the company and paid them a proper wage (well above minimum but not 80% of the salary of a full time colleague). That's what I meant about real jobs.

A normal salary is just another word for base salary of the permanent employees. 

They survive three years of college without getting paid. I don't see difference between the classroom and the workplace. Like I said, they should be paid if they are carrying out proper duties. I don't have a problem with it. I just think it is a very expensive form of training.


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## Sunny (10 Feb 2011)

Mpsox said:


> Plenty of other examples of students/apprentices getting paid, accountants are one group that spring to mind


 
I agree but accountants normally (and apprentices probably) get nowhere near 80% of salary of qualified colleagues.


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## Complainer (10 Feb 2011)

Sunny said:


> I just think it is a very expensive form of training.


It is actually a very cheap form of labour, and the hospitals would pretty much shut down overnight without this cheap labour.


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## Yorrick (10 Feb 2011)

The worst point is that we are training them for hospitals in the U.K. U.S.A. Canada etc while the H.S.E. spends millions "saving" money by hiring agency nurses


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## alaskaonline (10 Feb 2011)

Yorrick said:


> The worst point is that we are training them for hospitals in the U.K. U.S.A. Canada etc while the H.S.E. spends millions "saving" money by hiring agency nurses



you hit the nail on its head. that's the real problem here!


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## Shawady (10 Feb 2011)

When I studied science in the DIT back in the 90's I remember the Med Lab Science course was a 3 year course but the 3rd year was spent in the hospital and they got paid for it. I think it was something like £150 a week at the time which felt like a fortune to the rest of us poor students.

Up until recently only someone with a med lab degree could work as a med lab scientist but they have changed it. They are now allowing graduates from other science backgrounds (microbiolgy, biochemistry etc) to work as med lab scientists but they only earn 80% of the salary in the first year. I presume after 12 months, there is so assessment that they can do the job. This has been in operation for at least 8 years.
Maybe that is where the 80% figure is coming from. A harmonisation of hospital training?


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## Newbie! (10 Feb 2011)

Mpsox said:


> Plenty of people do, for example, when I was in UL studying for a degree, I spent 2 6 month work placements in 2 different companies over the duration of the course and got paid for it as did everyone else in my year. Why should employers get staff for free?, after all, student nurses do many of the tasks that a full time nurse does. Would you expect apprentice electricians or carpenters to work for nothing for a number of years whilst they qualify.?


 

Doctors??? they get paid incredibly well to do their year's internship. Nurses work under relatively similar pressures and workloads. Yet again, Doctors being considered superior to Nursing staff.


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## Jetblue (10 Feb 2011)

I'm not taking sides on this but I would be like to be educated a little on the following points if somebody out there with the relevant information and experience wouldn't mind.

What was wrong with the old system of nurse training? Why was it transferred from the hospitals to the colleges and made a degree?
Who benefitted most from the change? Who made money from the change?

I would be grateful for some insights into these points!
Thanks!


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## pinkyBear (10 Feb 2011)

Hi there, I am from a Nursing background, and now work in IT. When I was training we worked on the wards full time and had 12 weeks collage a year. I trained under the old system.  We were paid a pittance at the time! But that was OK, because we were training.

It is my view, that these pre-qualified should be treated as interns (as we treat our student programmers), while they know the basics, they have not worked on a ward full time and should not be given 80% of an SN's salary!  

Over the years I have met Doctors who, to get experience in a field, and  to gain contacts in a field worked for free... 

In terms of the old system, while it was very good, its primary focus was not on education but practice... That sounds great, however nurses should be upto date with research methods and patient care - so the degree has merit in my opinion.  The reality is though, with the new system, the nursing staff now have the education and it is that year working that gives them the practical experience managing a ward on a day to day bases..

P...


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## moondance (10 Feb 2011)

Sunny said:


> Based on the fact that Ireland is almost unique in making any sort of payments in this area to student nurses and we are broke.


 
I'd just like to point out to the above poster that nurses and midwives training in the UK get their college fees paid by the NHS *AND* get a bursary of £508 per month for the full 3 years of their degree including holidays.


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## Complainer (10 Feb 2011)

pinkyBear said:


> Over the years I have met Doctors who, to get experience in a field, and  to gain contacts in a field worked for free...


These kinds of situations restrict access to those who can afford to work for free, i.e. those who have a nice rich mammy/daddy/wife/hubby who will support them through the internship. This again furthers economic inequality - so only those who can fund the internship will get the chance at the consultancy post.


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## pinkyBear (10 Feb 2011)

Complainer said:


> These kinds of situations restrict access to those who can afford to work for free, i.e. those who have a nice rich mammy/daddy/wife/hubby who will support them through the internship. This again furthers economic inequality - so only those who can fund the internship will get the chance at the consultancy post.



Not necessarily - from my experience alot of those doctors funded themselves via credit cards - no parent or spouse to support them! Most of the interns I meet (I too was an intern) have second jobs that they do during the weekend (I too worked a week end job nursing to sustain me). Also in programming, you have the concept of opensource contributors - these are programmers who contribute for free to open source projects that big organisations such as facebook would use. They do this to get experience and their name "out there" - rather than just having on their CV, I was unemployed for 2 years. They can name a project they contributed to... 

P..


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## Newbie! (10 Feb 2011)

As far as I know, and I may be wrong.........Nurse training became a Level 8 degree a number of years ago and students are now educated within the NUI's. Like student doctors, they complete pre-clinical studies within a university and then they do clinical rotations out in the Universties' affiliated hospitals. 

Who benefits?.... the student, the University, the HEA, the hospitals....

Again, I may be wrong so please feel free to correct me...


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## Sunny (10 Feb 2011)

moondance said:


> I'd just like to point out to the above poster that nurses and midwives training in the UK get their college fees paid by the NHS *AND* get a bursary of £508 per month for the full 3 years of their degree including holidays.


 
Students here get their fees paid and not all student nurses get a bursary.


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## Newbie! (10 Feb 2011)

Complainer said:


> These kinds of situations restrict access to those who can afford to work for free, i.e. those who have a nice rich mammy/daddy/wife/hubby who will support them through the internship. This again furthers economic inequality - so only those who can fund the internship will get the chance at the consultancy post.


 
I thought that all medical internships were allocated via a national competition and all positions are paid internships. I didnt think you could _choose_ an internship place and not get paid?


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## pinkyBear (10 Feb 2011)

Newbie! said:


> Who benefits?.... the student, the University, the HEA, the hospitals....



newbie, you ask a very interesting question! I trained as a nurse the "old way" I have a nursing certificate. From day 1 we were on the wards caring and working with people. During my time as a student, my work was assessed in every ward I worked on. It was in my interest to do the best I could. 

When the degrees came in, there were less staff on the wards, and more care attendants, and the care attendant took over the role of a student nurse. Now I am not berating a care attendant's role, as there are some incredible staff.. But the reality is on the wards, the care attendant may/not have the full insight into patient care in comparison to a 3rd year student nurse. 

My nursing friends often find, that with the newly qualified staff, very often the leave nursing after the degree, as they are collage educated and less exposure to ward work means they can often be disappointed with the work they have to do when qualified...!

I am not dissing education at all, I think education is really important...


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## Newbie! (10 Feb 2011)

pinkyBear said:


> newbie, you ask a very interesting question! I trained as a nurse the "old way" I have a nursing certificate. From day 1 we were on the wards caring and working with people. During my time as a student, my work was assessed in every ward I worked on. It was in my interest to do the best I could.
> 
> When the degrees came in, there were less staff on the wards, and more care attendants, and the care attendant took over the role of a student nurse. No I am not berating a care attendant's role, as there are some incredible staff.. But the reality is on the wards, the care attendant may/not have the full insight into patient care in comparison to a 3rd year student nurse.
> 
> ...


 

Good point. On the flip side, could it be true that weaker students will never make it as far as clinical studies as they are easily identified in the earlier stages of the programme?


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## Complainer (10 Feb 2011)

pinkyBear said:


> Not necessarily - from my experience alot of those doctors funded themselves via credit cards - no parent or spouse to support them! .


Sorry if this is a shock to you, but not everyone has (or can get) credit cards and credit limits. That's a bit of a 'Let them eat cake' response.


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## pinkyBear (10 Feb 2011)

Complainer said:


> That's a bit of a 'Let them eat cake' response.



Given that I did it myself, without a credit card, and nothing only a second job to feed me! I'd hardly say its a "let them eat cake response". 

The reality is many student nurses actually work agency themselves, as relief care  attendants...  
P..


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## lou2 (10 Feb 2011)

It's important to note that students nurses do clinical placements from first year. These are obviously unpaid as these placements are part of their training. They don't just arrive on a ward for the first time for their rostered placement. Those on internship are doing the job of a newly qualified nurse. A qualified nurse is taken off the ward and replaced by a nurse on internship. They are a member of staff. They are a member of staff. They do shift work, night duty etc. Why then should they not get paid? They are not asking to be paid for their clinical placements when they are not part of the staffing quota, just for their internship when they are working as a nurse as part of the team. Seems fair enough to me.


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## annet (10 Feb 2011)

*this makes me so mad*

Oh I just had to put my two-pence worth into this. 

What's most insightful is that the IMNO agreed to unqualified student nurses being used to replace and do the work of qualified staff nurses on wards! Maybe, the students should have a bigger gripe with the union...me thinks! 

Last year, the INMO also proposed that newly qualified nurses should do some sort of a two year internship after qualification to stem the vast numbers who end up being jobless or those who are having to emmigrate. And for this two year internship, these newly qualified nurses under INMO proposals would receive a much lower rate of salary than is currently being paid to other staff nurses for the same work.  I wonder would any of the students who are currently protesting have any difficulties working for lesser amounts of money as another staff nurse, given they'd also be qualified, and doing the same work with the same level of responsibility.  This is the sort of crap that their own union comes out with. 

I dont know much about how this degree course operates in Ireland, but I also presume the student nurses are required to work a nine month placement as part of their course requirements.  I would also presume, that they also have some learning outcomes that must also be achieved in order to pass that last clinical placement. So in other words, if they dont do this placement....or they dont pass that placement....they dont get their degree....and if they dont get their degree....they are ineligible to register with An Bord Altranais as a fully qualified staff nurse.   Internships only apply if and when you actually get your qualification....that's the way it works in medicine!

The thing is no other student in the medical or paramedical profession receives 80% of their salary for a placement that is a mandatory component of the course and for qualification.  

Of course, if these students want to fully reimburse the €90,000 that it costs the taxpayer to put them through their four year degree programme, they'd be quite welcome to their 80% of a staff nurse salary for their nine month placement, in return for reimbursing us the cost of their training.


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## cork (10 Feb 2011)

Nurses campaigned for academic qualifications.

They now moan not getting paid during internship  periods.

They want their bread buttered on both sides.


About  reimbursing  the €90,000?

Funding like this does not even warrant mention.


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## Leper (10 Feb 2011)

We are largely getting a one sided argument here. Nursing used to be a 3 year course and it was extended out to 4 years just for the sake of (a) Filling the respective university/hospital course and (b) To replace nursing staff on holidays/career breaks/flexitime-hours/reduced hours etc.

We are being told that it takes €90,000 to train a nurse plus what it costs mom and dad to keep the student in 'college.'

Student Nurses are paid €12.36 per hour gross Basic Wages during their placement. They must work the hours appropriated to them and in the hospital appointed. Please note the hospital can be anywhere within the university greater area e.g a nursing student in Limerick can be ordered to work in say Nenagh hospital. The nurse must fund the travel, accommodation etc and be expected to work split attendances etc.

When a nurse qualifies from university he/she must emigrate to find work. I understand the UK is crying out for our highly trained nurses.

Our Training Hospitals do not employ nurses that they trained. I challenge anybody on here to supply truthful info about Training Hospitals that employed its own qualified nurses. I can say this because I know the truth.

Nurses and Student Nurses must report for duty in the ward at least 20 minutes before commencement time to ensure an easy handover. Also, they must remain in the ward 20 mins extra and unpaid on finishing the day/night to hand over to the next nurses.

This is fairly cheap labour for the responsibility even student nurses have. I should point out that a Student Nurse even on his/her first day in the ward will make more responsible decisions than any other profession.

Please people, know what you are talking about


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## annet (10 Feb 2011)

*I am a Nurse*



Leper said:


> We are largely getting a one sided argument here. Nursing used to be a 3 year course and it was extended out to 4 years just for the sake of (a) Filling the respective university/hospital course and (b) To replace nursing staff on holidays/career breaks/flexitime-hours/reduced hours etc.
> 
> We are being told that it takes €90,000 to train a nurse plus what it costs mom and dad to keep the student in 'college.'
> 
> ...


 
I am a Nurse. The €90,000 figure is what it costs us the taxpayer....not mom and dad! And remember, nurses do actually get a qualification that is transferrable to most parts of this world! And if people cant afford the expense of going to college to do nursing....well dont go!

I too came out with a university based qualification....and I also done unpaid placements all over the place throughout all my years in uni. I had to travel between sites, and no transport was laid on either. We also worked f/t hours throughout my years at college, and that was in addition to attending college, doing essay's, exams etc. We worked w/e's, night-shifts, bank holiday's, christmas, easter and the new year and we didnt get paid one £ in a salary for any of it.   In our final unit, we also done f/t hours on clinical placement for months prior to our graduation. 

Our main means of financial support throughout our training was a minimal bursary with focus on the minimal, and many of us did manage to survive on it, and we done this, through not living beyond their means, not taking out mortgages as students, and by budgeting accordingly. We also had to pay for accomodation, and for travel between different sites across the health district. Most of us also done agency on our day's off as HCA's. And tbh, agency did become virtually impossible towards the end of our training with the demands of placements....and many of us had no other option but to give it up....and focus on our training and final exams. 

Yes I wont lie, it was difficult juggling placements, college and agency....but we fully recognised that we were getting a qualification out of it.... 

And after my year qualified, only one or two out of a intake of 120 managed to get work as a staff nurse in any hospital within our health district. 

But, I suppose it comes down to your own views and attitudes, and whether you believe that having put you through uni, you then have some automatic right to expect a job to be there for you in the hospital where you trained.

Furthermore, this is being phased in over a couple of years. So many of these student nurses who are currently protesting wont actually be affected by any of this. Those who will be affected are those who just put in their CAO application....and when they put it in they knew full well that in all likelihood that payment wont be there for their fourth year of placement. 

This really riles me up.


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## thedaras (10 Feb 2011)

It is absolutely untrue to say this is largely a one sided argument,as far as I can see there are at least 20 posts which are for them being paid or neutral or just giving or looking for information,just because you dont like the rest of the posts does not make it one sided.Next thing it will be said its PS bashing.
Why are we training so many at a cost of 90k if as you say, they must emigrate to find work? waste of our tax payers money and the student numbers must be drastically reduced if this is the case.
My god imagine complaining about having to report for duty 20 mins before commencement time,for a change over !Next thing you know we will be told it takes them an hour to get the bus in and they are not happy about it.
You say they make more responsible decisions than any other profession>where did you get from??
Are you telling us that a student nurse makes more responsible decisions than doctors etc,that they are allowed make these decisions on the first day on a ward,that they are not fully qualified to do so?
Do they work this time with no supervision? I certainly hope not!
As far as I recall Nurses themselves wanted the 12 hour shifts which they complain about so much now!


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## Leper (10 Feb 2011)

thedaras, most of your argument is pretty puerile. Nearly every nurse I know works an extra 40 minutes per day extra without being compensated. Nobody is complaining about the time it takes to get a bus, come on, be fair, it is not too difficult even here. What if the nurse arrived 20 minutes after the due time each day and left 20 minutes before the due end time.  Then we would have a different argument from you.  

Nursing through its nature is pretty uncompromising and the profession has no place for the underskilled. Let's compare like with like. Nurses are on the wards from the moment they begin work. Doctors (or should I say NCHDs - Non-Conhsultant Hospital Doctors) work hard also, I wont take that from them. The NCHDs dont supervise nurses. Ask most consultants and even the NCHDs and you will see that it is NCHDs receive instruction from the nurses (except for the Consultant's Registrar, of course). Let's not devalue the work of student nurses.

Don't forget, we are talking about student nurses here. They are being trained and they work hard and for €12.36 per hour. 

I never said anything about Public Service V Private Sector either.

Let's get to your other point i.e the cost to train a nurse (€90,000+). Clearly, it is not good value for money and because we are sending the vast majority of our student nurses abroad, this is a bad investment and no return is obtained. Therefore, let's stop training nurses now. But, the universities want to train nurses and whether we need them or not they will continue to train nurses for no jobs in Ireland.


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## micmclo (10 Feb 2011)

Was there even a need to make nursing a degree subject with graduate salaries?
What was so wrong with the old way when nursing was treated like a vocation and they trained like an apprentice.


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## lou2 (10 Feb 2011)

Yes there was a need to make nursing a degree subject. The nature of healthcare has changed rapidly over the past 2 decades. Advances in treatment modalities, an increase in specialites etc. Nurses are the core healthcare profession. They are the only healthcare professional with the patient 24/7. The profession of nursing had to advance to meet the needs of those whom they care for. I am very familiar with both the traditional system of training and the 'new' system of training. A graduate nursing profession is required to meet healthcare needs in modern society.

With regard to the original argument re students nurses pay...other posters have talked about other students on internships not being paid...to the best of my knowledge none of these are actually replacing a staff member in full.


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## orka (10 Feb 2011)

pinkyBear said:


> Over the years I have met Doctors who, to get experience in a field, and to gain contacts in a field worked for free...





Complainer said:


> These kinds of situations restrict access to those who can afford to work for free, i.e. those who have a nice rich mammy/daddy/wife/hubby who will support them through the internship. This again furthers economic inequality - so only those who can fund the internship will get the chance at the consultancy post.


Doctors train/get experience/gain contacts for many years post-initial college education so this is not necessarily an internship situation - and I think is unlikely to be. It's much more likely to be to gain experience with a particular specialist in a field that the new(ish) doctor is specialising in him/herself.  There's not so much difference between one internship (which for doctors is only the first year post-college) and the next that would make it worth being unpaid. Anyhoo, doctors typically work on 6-24 month contracts until they become consultants so could easily work (and be very well paid) for 12 months (or 5 years) and then work with a reknowed specialist for 6 months for free (if that's what the deal was) and not have to tap mummy and daddy for living expenses at the age of 30...


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## lionstour (10 Feb 2011)

panathon said:


> It makes my blood boil, many groups have a right to protest about pay cuts, about potential job losses, about bad contracts, about recession effects BUT people who have not even achieved their degree yet protest about not being paid. I don't know any other group that gets paid to achieve a degree - it's called internship (which stretches to after achieving a degree in many careers) or work experience or free unpaid fieldwork to ensure you are capable of the bookwork, and practical work you have studied for.
> 
> It dilutes the protests that are important and necessary. Get your qualification and then give out about pay conditions. We all have to do it.


 

That makes my blood boil actually. You want them to be slaves do you. Tend to your kids and elderly parents 40 hours a week and get nothing for it? Are you for real?


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## Delboy (10 Feb 2011)

Mpsox said:


> Plenty of other examples of students/apprentices getting paid, accountants are one group that spring to mind



when i had my business degree completed, and whilst studying for my finals in accountancy, I got £80 per week back in 97...working a full week.
After getting my finals and moving to a full time job in Dublin in 98, i went up to the princely sum of £250 per week!!!

they should never have turned nursing into a 4 yr degree course...made no since to me at the time but it's what the unions wanted


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## thedaras (10 Feb 2011)

Delboy, you have summed it up really well;" its what the unions wanted"..along with 12 hour shifts..


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## lionstour (10 Feb 2011)

thedaras said:


> Delboy, you have summed it up really well;" its what the unions wanted"..along with 12 hour shifts..


 

headline shock

UNION IN CAMPAIGN TO DEFEND THE PAY OF ITS MEMBERS.

So the unions have the cheek to fight for the right of people to get paid a fair days pay for a fair days work.  They do the same things as qualified nurses they work as hard.  Not paying them would be exploitation.


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## lionstour (10 Feb 2011)

Delboy said:


> when i had my business degree completed
> 
> .....................made no since to me at the time but it's what the unions wanted


 
Well from someone who qualified in Business it would nt make much sense to you.


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## Complainer (10 Feb 2011)

orka said:


> Doctors train/get experience/gain contacts for many years post-initial college education so this is not necessarily an internship situation - and I think is unlikely to be. It's much more likely to be to gain experience with a particular specialist in a field that the new(ish) doctor is specialising in him/herself.  There's not so much difference between one internship (which for doctors is only the first year post-college) and the next that would make it worth being unpaid. Anyhoo, doctors typically work on 6-24 month contracts until they become consultants so could easily work (and be very well paid) for 12 months (or 5 years) and then work with a reknowed specialist for 6 months for free (if that's what the deal was) and not have to tap mummy and daddy for living expenses at the age of 30...



But why should anyone work unpaid? This is pure exploitation.


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## Deiseblue (11 Feb 2011)

12 hour shifts must be extremely wearing however nurses who work such shifts can avail of quite a bit of leisure time in that they are likely to work a 3 day on 4 day off rota one week followed by a 4 day on 3 day off rota the next.

I do of course realise that a lot of nurses worker much longer hours on an overtime basis and others work a 7.5 hour day on a rostered 5 day basis.

Shift work is indeed difficult but I warrant that quite a number of the nurses who work such shifts feel that they are more than compensated by the time off.


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## Leper (11 Feb 2011)

I note some on here compare working for an Accountant as an "apprentice" and the miserable wages (if you can call them that) acquired to a student nurse in a hospital ward.  

If I am to be remembered on this site (say in a hundred years time) please let it be for saying that Accountants are the most miserable people from which to abstract money including the pay they give to their trainees. I'm not finished yet, I can say the same for solicitors.

Two wrongs never made a right.  Also, for the record nurses work different shifts not only 8pm to 8am, 8am to 8pm, 9am to 6pm etc etc.


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## orka (11 Feb 2011)

Complainer said:


> But why should anyone work unpaid? This is pure exploitation.


I will start by saying I know lots of doctors and have never heard of anyone offering to or actually working for free.  However, the upside of some training/experience could be huge so I could understand someone doing it - it might be working for free for a year but it would pay off 10 times over throughout a future career.  Imagine a doctor who wants to be an IVF specialist being given an opportunity to work with IVF pioneer Robert Winston (not sure if he works anymore but you get the idea) - but it's on a research project with a tight budget - they're happy to have an extra doctor working but can't afford to pay him and could manage without if necessary.  The CV enhancement would be huge - it could add 100s of thousands to future career earnings.  Exploitation?


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## Complainer (11 Feb 2011)

orka said:


> Imagine a doctor who wants to be an IVF specialist being given an opportunity to work with IVF pioneer Robert Winston (not sure if he works anymore but you get the idea) - but it's on a research project with a tight budget - they're happy to have an extra doctor working but can't afford to pay him and could manage without if necessary.


The scenario of the pioneer not being able to pay the extra doctor is not credible to me. Every employer/researcher could do with extra staff. That doesn't mean that working for free is a good idea.


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## pinkyBear (11 Feb 2011)

orka said:


> I will start by saying I know lots of doctors and have never heard of anyone offering to or actually working for free.  However, the upside of some training/experience could be huge so I could understand someone doing it - it might be working for free for a year but it would pay off 10 times over throughout a future career.  Imagine a doctor who wants to be an IVF specialist being given an opportunity to work with IVF pioneer Robert Winston (not sure if he works anymore but you get the idea) - but it's on a research project with a tight budget - they're happy to have an extra doctor working but can't afford to pay him and could manage without if necessary.  The CV enhancement would be huge - it could add 100s of thousands to future career earnings.  Exploitation?



Hi Orka, I knew a doctor who wanted to specialize in ophthalmology (eys) and she worked free - for your exact reason, and yes it does pay pack. Programmers work for free too doing opensource projects in the hope that the projects they are working on becomes successful and they can move on to better things...
P..


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## thedaras (11 Feb 2011)

Can anyone answer this question?
Do "student" Nurses work independently during this fourth year of "Training"?

What I am trying to establish is, Is there is a fully "qualified " nurse rostered for say and 8 to 8 shift,,is she then replaced by "trainee" nurse ?

Or does the "fully qualified" nurse,have to remain with the "trainee?

Reason I want to know is ,if the "Trainee" must be Shadowed by a "qualified "nurse are we are paying both of them a wage?


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## pinkyBear (11 Feb 2011)

from what I can recall, now things could have changed so I am open to correction. Student Nurses that are still in collage are considered supernumery, they will shadow a nurse, and do light duty. 

During the 4th year, they are not considered supernumery and will part take in active running of the ward, there are certain tasks like drug rounds, drug administration that must be done by two nurses. 

P..


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## pinkyBear (11 Feb 2011)

Complainer said:


> The scenario of the pioneer not being able to pay the extra doctor is not credible to me. Every employer/researcher could do with extra staff. That doesn't mean that working for free is a good idea.



Hi Complainer, I appreciate what you are saying, however you think it is not  a good idea to work free, but medicine and computing are international careers, and if I don't "work for free" on an open source project to maintain my skill. I effectively place myself out of the running for a job - both nationally and internationally!  
I know loads of people (my brother) that worked as interns for free, to gain experience and contacts.  Its all about whats on the CV...

Its very prevalent - we may not want to do it, but market forces are market forces, and it has to be done. 
P..


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## Complainer (11 Feb 2011)

It is a 'catch-22' situation. As long as people are willing to work for free, there will be employers ready to exploit it. This naturally favours those with more resources.

If people stop working for free, employers will need to take a different approach.


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## pinkyBear (11 Feb 2011)

Complainer said:


> If people stop working for free, employers will need to take a different approach.


Easier said than done! In terms of careers that are international, not doing internships, and managing your CV is not an option. 

Most young people (I am vein enough to include myself in that bracket!) have the skill set to work abroad if needs be, and thats a good thing.

Ireland is not a stand alone country, and not every one is a teacher - or works in the public sector (and I am not about to start public sector bashing/ and I would hope that this thread doesn't kick off that "tired" battle), Ireland is part of a global community and there are loads of jobs that require internships to get the contacts, and the experience.

Part of it complainer, is getting access to contacts too! And we have to do what we have to do...
P..


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## Firefly (11 Feb 2011)

Complainer said:


> It is a 'catch-22' situation. As long as people are willing to work for free, there will be employers ready to exploit it. This naturally favours those with more resources.
> 
> If people stop working for free, employers will need to take a different approach.



It's only for a limited time period though. In this case the doctor calcuates that it's worth his/her interest in the longer term to forego renumeration now for later. Similiar to students going to college to get degrees, similair to apprentices in the plumbing/carpenter trades, similiar to university graduates (with top grades) working for "relative" pittance for accountancy practices for a number of years...all done on the calculation that it's better to take the hit on pay now.


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## lou2 (11 Feb 2011)

I'm glad to see that the government are looking at this issue again and are now looking at some level of remuneration for their internship.


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## annet (11 Feb 2011)

*staff nurses*



thedaras said:


> Can anyone answer this question?
> Do "student" Nurses work independently during this fourth year of "Training"?
> 
> What I am trying to establish is, Is there is a fully "qualified " nurse rostered for say and 8 to 8 shift,,is she then replaced by "trainee" nurse ?
> ...


 
The staff nurse as the fully trained member of staff is the person who will be held professionally and legally accountable for whatever may arise on the ward....

And there must alway's be qualified staff nurses on any unit.....fourth year students are not allowed to manage a ward! Patient care involves the delegation of workload to junior colleagues.....


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## Complainer (11 Feb 2011)

lou2 said:


> I'm glad to see that the government are looking at this issue again and are now looking at some level of remuneration for their internship.


This is the old FF trick of being the Government and the opposition at the same time. Don't fall for their games.


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## pinkyBear (11 Feb 2011)

The reality is politicians can promise what they want, and don't believe a word of it, any government can only do what they can pay for!


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## Leper (11 Feb 2011)

thedaras said:


> Can anyone answer this question?
> Do "student" Nurses work independently during this fourth year of "Training"?
> 
> What I am trying to establish is, Is there is a fully "qualified " nurse rostered for say and 8 to 8 shift,,is she then replaced by "trainee" nurse ?
> ...


 
1. Yes.
2. Yes, the trainee nurse is not supernumery.
3. Employing student nurses saves the hospital on wages.  Note that an agency nurse to replace a staff nurse will cost more than a staff nurse's wages.

Just thought:- My earlier post might have offended you, it was never meant to.


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## thedaras (11 Feb 2011)

None taken Leper;but cheers for that.

If the situation is that the trainees go in and do a full days work,replacing existing staff,and not under supervision,then I would agree that they should be paid.

I'm amazed that the Nurses union is allowing this though.
Because in effect they are taking work/pay from fully qualified nurses??


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## thedaras (11 Feb 2011)

Quote:
Originally Posted by thedaras  


> Can anyone answer this question?
> Do "student" Nurses work independently during this fourth year of "Training"?
> 
> What I am trying to establish is, Is there is a fully "qualified " nurse rostered for say and 8 to 8 shift,,is she then replaced by "trainee" nurse ?
> ...



So here are the answers to my question;



annet said:


> The staff nurse as the fully trained member of staff is the person who will be held professionally and legally accountable for whatever may arise on the ward....
> 
> And there must alway's be qualified staff nurses on any unit.....fourth year students are not allowed to manage a ward! Patient care involves the delegation of workload to junior colleagues.....


And this one;

Posted byLeper:


> 1. Yes.
> 2. Yes, the trainee nurse is not supernumery.
> 3. Employing student nurses saves the hospital on wages. Note that an agency nurse to replace a staff nurse will cost more than a staff nurse's wages.


So which one is correct?? Im lost!


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## becky (11 Feb 2011)

thedaras said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by thedaras
> 
> 
> ...



They both are really.  You would not staff a ward with only 4th year trainees so in that sense there has to be qualified nurses on the ward as well.

Equally, during the time when there are no 4th year nurses, you would not staff a ward with only newly qualified nurses.

It's called skill mix and the CNM/Director of Nursing has to ensure there is a good skill mix in place.


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## Delboy (11 Feb 2011)

lionstour said:


> Well from someone who qualified in Business it would nt make much sense to you.



and that means what????


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## micmclo (12 Feb 2011)

I strolled over to www.inmo.ie
And not a article on this issue on the front page

If all Liam Doran can come up with is "slave labour", maybe it's time to sack him and get a better union rep, well he wasn't working for free.

Or resigning from the union and getting better representation
It's your union subs who pay these so get the best reps that you can


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## Deiseblue (12 Feb 2011)

micmclo said:


> I strolled over to www.inmo.ie
> And not a article on this issue on the front page
> 
> If all Liam Doran can come up with is "slave labour", maybe it's time to sack him and get a better union rep, well he wasn't working for free.
> ...



I'm sure INMO members will take your views on board ! 

Or perhaps now that the INMO organised protest has led to a review of the situation perhaps they consider that the subs are well worth paying ?

After all ,one must ask the question - would the position have been reviewed without union representation ?


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## micmclo (12 Feb 2011)

Nursing is a vocation and not a graduate job.
Lose the care assistants and let nurses go back to what they were originally were.
It's the doctors job to dispense medication. Nurses are there to care, make beds, do the lower work

But they got rid of the vocation idea, made it a graduate degree and now graduate salaries are expected.
Nursing is a vocation, if you want top money go study and get the points to be a doctor and be prepared to work the 36 hour shifts

If not, there are nurses from the Philippines who can do your job better then you


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## Leper (12 Feb 2011)

micmclo said:


> Nursing is a vocation and not a graduate job.
> Lose the care assistants and let nurses go back to what they were originally were.
> It's the doctors job to dispense medication. Nurses are there to care, make beds, do the lower work
> 
> ...


 
What a stupid post and also racist.  Surely a case for being deleted by the Moderators?

It is also an insult to the Nurses back up people.  Moderator, please delete!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## micmclo (12 Feb 2011)

Can you point me to the part where I was racist? Ease up on the exclamation marks, one is enough unless you are an attention seeker

Why do nurses have backup people as you put it? Why are there care assistants to do the tasks nurses once did but now nurses are higher paid?
This can all be looked at


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## lou2 (12 Feb 2011)

First of all micmclo, by and large doctors don't dispense medication, pharmacists do. Nurses administer medication, doctors prescribe it (although some nurses do also). Your post with regard to nursing being a vocation is outdated. Nursing is a career. It's a profession. It's a job. Yes those who enter it should really want to do it and should be interested in caring for patients but this doesn't make it a vocation. Also to suggest that caring is the 'lower work' is ignorant beyond belief. Ask any patient who has been looked after by a caring nurse...I doubt they would class their work as 'lower'. One final point...being caring and having a degree education are not mutually exclusive.


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## Leper (12 Feb 2011)

1. Why should the Care Assistants (and/or do you mean Attendants?) be lost? Nursing is a caring professon, why should they return to what they once were when they were the most exploited people in hospitals?

2. Nurses administer medication. Is there a reason whythey should not?

3. Of course salaries are expected, do you think they should work for nothing?

5. Nurses from the Phillippines - who ever said they can do the job of an Irish nurse better than an Irish nurse? If this is not racism, I dont know what is. But, I think your are under the impression that foreign nurses get paid less than Irish nurses in Ireland. If so, you are wrong.

Your point on NCHDs (hospital doctors) doing 36 hours shift. They get paid a far higer rate than the nurses. Also, hospital doctors are not expected to work continuously for 36 hours. The hospital doctors have sleeping quarters in every hospital and if they are sleeping during their shifts they get paid. Nurses dont sleep on the job.

And exclamation marks - I'll use as many as I like - Thank You.


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## micmclo (12 Feb 2011)

Leper said:


> But, I think your are under the impression that foreign nurses get paid less than Irish nurses in Ireland.  If so, you are wrong.



But I didn't post that.
But it's been posted a few times in this thread that it costs €90,000 to train a nurse through college.
Cutting back on training places and if there is a shortage bringing in trained nurses no matter where they are from is an instant money saver.


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## Leper (12 Feb 2011)

Miclmlo, While I am a supporter of free speech.  You are digging deeper while still in a hole.  The same could be said about any profession.

1. Why train Irish doctors when we can use foreign doctors?

2. Why train Irish nurses when we can use foreign nurses?

3. Why train Irish accountants when we can use foreign accountants?

4 Why train Irish engineers when we can use foreign engineers?

5. Why train Irish shop assistants when we can use foreign shop assistants?


Add in any profession/trade/employment title you wish and I am sure you will keep digging. Let's be fair here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (knew you'd like the !!!!!)


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## Deiseblue (12 Feb 2011)

micmclo said:


> But I didn't post that.
> But it's been posted a few times in this thread that it costs €90,000 to train a nurse through college.
> Cutting back on training places and if there is a shortage bringing in trained nurses no matter where they are from is an instant money saver.



Do I think your suggestion that nurses from the Phillipines can do a better job than Irish nurses racist - no.

Idiotic - yes.

Nurses are nurses no matter what their nationality is & one nationality is as likely to do a professional job as another.


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## Sunny (13 Feb 2011)

This thread has run its course I think.


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## Leper (13 Feb 2011)

Yep, time for us all to have a pint together


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