# What is the obsession with protecting Ulster Bank jobs?



## Brendan Burgess (19 Feb 2021)

If ptsb can take over all the home loans and service them with the existing staff, then that is what would be best for customers. 

Keeping jobs for the sake of keeping jobs is terribly inefficient. 

Brendan


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## Brendan Burgess (19 Feb 2021)

Paschal meeting the Financial Services Union.


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## Monbretia (19 Feb 2021)

Well I think in general it's a good idea to protect anyones job if possible, highly unlikely these days that any bank will keep on staff just for the craic, if they can get rid of them they will but no harm to try and absorb some of them with the loans if practical.    There won't be many replacement jobs out there for the bulk of the staff made redundant.


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## Johnno75 (19 Feb 2021)

Brendan Burgess said:


> If ptsb can take over all the home loans and service them with the existing staff, then that is what would be best for customers.
> 
> Keeping jobs for the sake of keeping jobs is terribly inefficient.
> 
> Brendan


Listening to the Chief Executive of Ulster Bank on Radio 1 this morning, it sounds like the amount of staff ultimately transferring to any purchasing organisation will be minimal, notwithstanding any indications made at this stage to the contrary.

The reality is that UB staff will most likely be offered voluntary redundancy over the coming months and years. No acquiring entity will have any interest in taking staff under the Transfer of Undertakings Regulations. 

Even though, for example, it’s apparently “agreed in principle” that AIB’s proposed acquisition of the loan book will see staff from UB transferring to AIB, I ultimately see the number of employees transferring to AIB as minimal.


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## Brendan Burgess (19 Feb 2021)

What really annoyed me was the Trade Union representative saying on Morning Ireland something along the lines of

"Consumers are very well protected in this country.  So we must make it the absolute no. 1 priority to protect jobs."

Brendan


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## Brendan Burgess (19 Feb 2021)

Many of the Ulster Bank staff are going to do very well out of this.

There will be a generous voluntary redundancy programme. They will avail of this and move on to new and often better jobs. 

Brendan


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## Monbretia (19 Feb 2021)

Brendan Burgess said:


> They will avail of this and move on to new and often better jobs.



Maybe those based in Dublin, there will be slim pickings jobwise in rural towns for ex bank staff.


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## Johnno75 (19 Feb 2021)

Jobs will be protected to the minimal extent possible from the banks’ perspective i.e. not at all. That’s the reality. It’s not popular to say this, but on any asset sale of this nature, the staff are merely numbers on a page. UB’s focus now is to wind down and get gone out of Ireland. Any purchaser will seek to minimise acquiring financial obligations - it’ll come down to redundancy.

It will start as a voluntary redundancy scheme. Then if there are staff left over, it will be compulsory. 

Any residual staff left who happen to fall within the TUPE regulations and who are obliged to be taken on by the acquirer (eg any remaining UB loan servicing staff who may transfer to AIB as part of the loan sale) may then transfer, if at all.

It’s likely that any redundancy scheme offered by a seller is done on better terms than any purchaser will offer down the road.


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## PGF2016 (19 Feb 2021)

Jayom75 said:


> It’s not popular to say this, but on any asset sale of this nature, the staff are merely numbers on a page.



It might not be popular to say it but it should be said more often. People need to realize this and prepare for it by ensuring they are always employable elsewhere and also by saving a rainy day fund to cope with a loss of salary.


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## ArthurMcB (19 Feb 2021)

Has to be a balance between need to protect customers versus need to protect society re job losses.


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## EasilyAmused (19 Feb 2021)

Brendan Burgess said:


> They will avail of this and move on to new and often better jobs.
> 
> Brendan



Do bank tellers have transferable skills, in general? I always regarded it as one of those “institutionalised” professions, where it’s a job for life. 



Monbretia said:


> Maybe those based in Dublin, there will be slim pickings jobwise in rural towns for ex bank staff.



Are there many Ulster Bank branches in rural Irish towns?
I’m from Cork and larger towns like Mallow have an UB branch but smaller rural towns, e.g. Charleville., do not. 
Maybe it’s different in Ulster counties. Apparently there is only one bank in Ballyjamesduff (pop. 2,600), an Ulster Bank.


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## Monbretia (19 Feb 2021)

EasilyAmused said:


> Are there many Ulster Bank branches in rural Irish towns?


Well I'm calling anything outside the main cities rural    Tralee & Killarney both have UB branches for example.

As for transferable skills, yes to another financial type scenario as many would be QFA for what that is worth but there is not exactly a boom in financial type jobs, there is a lot of young staff there and a fair old turnover of them in recent years so they have a better chance of picking up something as a lot would be college graduates.  Some of the long timers will be most hit, yes they will get the biggest package but if you're hovering around the 50ish mark and not in a main city then good luck with finding work at all not to mind a better job!   Too experienced/qualified for many jobs according to employers and I always found that when you were old enough to be a parent of the interviewer you were on a hiding to nothing!     50ish is very young to be on the scrap heap, again possibly my own personal experience is colouring my view of this but I wasn't alone among my colleagues in that bracket and my experiences in the past.

The standard answer used always is sure you could pick up something like the local shop or the till in Tesco but you quickly find that Tesco etc has more than enough people looking for jobs than someone who never worked a till in their life, it just doesn't happen.


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## Freelance (19 Feb 2021)

EasilyAmused said:


> Are there many Ulster Bank branches in rural Irish towns?
> I’m from Cork and larger towns like Mallow have an UB branch but smaller rural towns, e.g. Charleville., do not.
> Maybe it’s different in Ulster counties. Apparently there is only one bank in Ballyjamesduff (pop. 2,600), an Ulster Bank.


Ulster Bank at one point had close to 200 branches in the Republic and has already reduced this to 88 branches by rounds of closures in 2013, 2014, 2015 and 2017. In Cork currently there are 2 branches in/near the city (Patrick St and Douglas), 2 cashless Mortgage Centres (Winthrop Street and Wilton, and three branches in the County (Midleton, Mallow and Bandon). Closures in recent years include South Mall, Blackpool, Carrigaline, Ballincollig, Fermoy. Some of the northern counties were harder hit as they were Ulster Bank’s traditional heartland and had longstanding UB branches or Sub Offices in villages as well as towns.

You are correct about it being the last bank branch in Ballyjamesduff. Ironically, the closure of that branch will help copper fasten the position of the post office, especially given that over 30% of its population are non nationals who tend to use FX services a lot. 

And I'd agree with Montbretia; whatever about the bright young things and those close to retirement any staff who are in or around 50 and based outside of Dublin/Cork/Limerick/Galway will find it difficult to pick up another job on anything like the same T&Cs, especially as the majority of these will have little in the way of formal qualifications apart from a Leaving Cert. But that is the same in many wind-up situations and a hell of a lot better than the way of the likes of the way Debenham's staff were treated for example.


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## time to plan (20 Feb 2021)

Some of this discussion reminds me of Norman Tebbit in 1980s Britain. If you’re 50 and have spent your life working in a bank in a  small town, maybe you haven’t got great prospects. It’s a Trade Union’s role to stand up for you. Fine to disagree with them but to be annoyed seems to be missing the point that the people most affected by these will be those who will lose their jobs, particularly those who won’t easily walk into another one.


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## Brendan Burgess (20 Feb 2021)

But if those jobs are no longer required?  Why should branches be kept open? 

The world changes. Businesses change. By your reasoning, we would still have horse drawn carriages instead of cars out of sympathy to the carriage men. 

Those most affected will be mortgage holders and other customers and they should be prioritised. 

The employees who have worked their all their lives will get generous redundancy and generous pensions.

Brendan


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## SGWidow (20 Feb 2021)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Those most affected will be mortgage holders and other customers and they should be prioritised.



Hi Brendan,

Frankly, the blunt statement that someone having to switch his mortgage is more impacted by this decision than someone losing his job, is absurd.

For example, if I have a tracker mortgage, ultimately it will be switched somewhere else on the same terms and conditions - i.e. very minimal impact. If I lose my job, there could be all sorts of negative repercussions for my family and I.

Honestly, apart from the deficit in logic, I think that you are being insensitive to those who may be justifiably anxious and are trying to come to terms about what the future holds.


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## Monbretia (20 Feb 2021)

Of course the branches aren't going to be kept open just to keep staff in jobs but a bit of sympathy and understanding of their plight wouldn't go astray!     

It's not as cut and dried as saying they will better jobs/generous redundancy/generous pension.    I don't know what the deal negotiated for staff this time will be but many could be a good few years off pension and 'generous' is subjective.    I suppose it varies depending on lifestyle, I have a defined benefit pension, the Rolls Royce of pensions we were always told by our employer and it only kicked in last year but all I'll say is it's lucky I'm cheap to run!

Jobs won't be kept for the sake of it, banks don't do that!   When First Active and Ulster Bank merged there were no compulsory redundancies other than branches that were closed beforehand and where the staff could not be redeployed elsewhere.    What happened was a redundancy package was offered to all staff with FA staff being prioritised but some UB staff got it too so while I don't know the actual numbers I doubt overall staff numbers increased much if at all, many UB staff were refused it so definitely they didn't keep staff they didn't want.


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## Leper (20 Feb 2021)

SGWidow said:


> Hi Brendan,
> 
> Frankly, the blunt statement that someone having to switch his mortgage is more impacted by this decision than someone losing his job, is absurd.
> 
> ...


1. I couldn't have put it better myself. And I commend SGWidow for the post. 
2. "you are being insensitive to those who may be justifiable anxious and are trying to come to terms about what the future holds."

People are entitled to their opinions, but if I had made myself look "not good" in a recent interview with Joe Duffy I'd be trying to quench the flames rather than add petrol. 

2nd Rule of Media Training:- Where sympathy is needed save the aggression for another day.


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## Brendan Burgess (20 Feb 2021)

Folks

The guy from the trade union was on to say that the consumers are well protected and that the priority must be the workers.

This is just wrong. 

The sad reality is that the company is closing down. Banking is changing. Banking is going online. There are going to be fewer people needed.

The workers are going to be very well looked after in terms of redundancy payments. 

There are plenty of jobs and yes, some of them will have to retrain.

But mortgage holders are losing a valuable competitor in the Irish market, and this should be the government's priority.

Brendan


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## Leper (20 Feb 2021)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Folks
> 
> The guy from the trade union was on to say that the consumers are well protected and that the priority must be the workers.
> 
> ...


Nobody is arguing with you Brendan. These are trying times for people who hitherto had well paid employment and they are trying to come to terms through no fault of their own with losing their main means of income.

Remember I said before - It's all about presentation. Curt posts of "terribly inefficient" and "just wrong" are up there with you blaming radio presenters for low take-up of Senior Loans.

Some empathy at this stage with the UB workers wouldn't go astray.


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## time to plan (20 Feb 2021)

Brendan Burgess said:


> But if those jobs are no longer required?  Why should branches be kept open?
> 
> The world changes. Businesses change. By your reasoning, we would still have horse drawn carriages instead of cars out of sympathy to the carriage men.
> 
> ...


Why shouldn’t UB just auction off the mortgages to whichever fund will squeeze those who can’t switch the most? That’s business after all, and you can’t argue with the free market! What’s the obsession with UB mortgage customers?

But I’m being facetious of course. It’s great to be passionate about protecting consumers. But there’s really no need to be annoyed about those who are passionate about protecting workers, in my opinion. It doesn’t need to be an either / or. 

And I really have to disagree that a mortgage customer is more affected than a worker. If a worker can just find another job, then a mortgage customer can just switch. And if you can see why it will be hard for some customers to switch, I’m sure you can also see that it will be hard for some workers to find another job


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## Sunny (20 Feb 2021)

So a trade union official goes on the radio and says protecting jobs has to be the priority. Shock and horror. This leads to dramatic claims that there  is an obsession with saving jobs. There is never an obsession with saving jobs when there is no need anymore and we see that in numerous examples in recent years. Banks have shred thousands of jobs since the crisis. That doesn't mean that if there is a way to protect some jobs by selling viable parts of the business then that should be the priority. This has always been the way and there is even legislation in place. Comparisons to horse drawn carriages are just ridiculous. 

We then have people commenting that branch staff have no transferable skills like they are simpletons. When I said that this was offensive, my post was deleted and was told that my post was stupid and offensive. And Brendan is perfectly entitled to say as much and delete it. 

But I find this entire thread offensive to staff involved. Talk about lack of transferable skills, generous pensions and redundancy payments. The only people who know what the impact is on individuals are the staff involved.  Talk about the closure of ulster bank and the impact on consumers but threads like this do nothing for AAM. It is just a baseless rant.


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## SGWidow (20 Feb 2021)

Well said Sunny,

Some of the comments are very disappointing indeed. I am afraid of saying anything stronger lest my post be culled.


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## EasilyAmused (20 Feb 2021)

Neither the Ulster Bank employees nor customers will benefit from the bank exiting the country but the latter will have it a lot easier. 
For the most part the existing UB customers will have to do nothing. Their mortgages and accounts will be taken over by another bank with the same interest rates, terms and conditions. Sit back and relax, someone else is doing the work. Done and dusted, nothing to see here.
Entirely different story for the employees. Yes, they’ll have the safety net of a redundancy payout, but they won’t be getting served up a new job.  There will be no seamless transfer where they are guaranteed to retain their current salaries and T’s&C’s. They’ll have to pound the pavements and put the effort in. Many bank branch staff are “frontline workers” and have not experienced the current WFH revolution. Most of those 2,800 staff will be forced from a pre-Covid work environment to a post-Covid work environment through job losses, double the upheaval people experienced during Lockdown 1.
I’m not saying my heart bleeds for them. Given the choice I’d prefer to be a UB customer than a UB employee.


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## Freelance (20 Feb 2021)

We would all hope if not expect that Nat West will behave honourably in regard to both staff and customers, but sadly this cannot be taken for granted. Arguing whether staff or mortgage customers should be a higher priority for the Government makes little sense. Staff are protected by a large body of employment legislation that has been considerably strengthened over the last 50 years. It often works out well, but sometimes it doesn’t (e.g. Debenhams or Clerys). Likewise, customers (and in particular consumers) of financial institutions are protected by a large body of consumer protection legislation enacted over the last 40 years, and again this works well but not always (e.g. tracker mortgages). It is entirely appropriate that various representative and advocacy bodies such as the Unions and the Fair Mortgage Rates Campaign are vocal in respect of their sectional interests, while the Government (including its operational and regulatory arms) must take an overarching view and be alert to the rights and needs of all parties and must be prepared to act in whatever it proves necessary.


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## 24601 (20 Feb 2021)

Brendan Burgess said:


> There are plenty of jobs and yes, some of them will have to retrain.



Whatever about anything else you're saying - which is undoubtedly true notwithstanding the Thatcherite undertone and delivery - I'm not so sure this is the case. None of us know what the long term impact of COVID will be on the jobs market but I'd hazard a guess that it won't be positive, and it certainly won't be positive for the UB lifers living outside of places like Cork & Dublin in the long run. They may get some mileage out of their "generous" packages but for some of them it'll be a long and uncertain road to retirement. Also, I don't think there's an "obsession" with protecting Ulster Bank jobs specifically, I just think that most people have empathy for others losing their jobs.


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## Peanuts20 (21 Feb 2021)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Many of the Ulster Bank staff are going to do very well out of this.
> 
> There will be a generous voluntary redundancy programme. They will avail of this and move on to new and often better jobs.
> 
> Brendan



Firstly the true number of jobs at risk here is likely to be around 4-5000, not the 2800 quoted previously. This is because all of the banks' 3rd party suppliers will also have to cut back. These range from cleaners and security to IT and service firms. ISS for example have a major property support contract that will no longer  be needed. Tasks like Cash in Transit, cheque clearing, IT support, ATM maintenance are all outsourced to 3rd party providers these days by all of the banks and all of those providers will cut back as a result. . Even the union will loose at least €250k a year in membership revenue and will have to cut back as a result.

The majority of staff in UB these days (especially in branches) are not massively well paid. Key roles were long sent overseas and a lot of staff would be on less then €30k per year. Based on Bank of Irelands previous package (as an example), someone with 10 years service on a 30k salary would walk away with €35k before any tax. Hardly a life changing sum for people who will probably never work in the industry again.


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## fidelcastro (21 Feb 2021)

Well said Peanuts. Unless you are wearing their shoes, speculation re generous redundancy packages smacks of jealousy. The lack of empathy is shocking.
Of course if the reverse was true, same individuals would be first to vent on the airwaves.
A clerk in UB desk isn't a 'well paid' position. Perhaps in 1980.


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## EasilyAmused (21 Feb 2021)

fidelcastro said:


> A clerk in UB desk isn't a 'well paid' position. Perhaps in 1980.



I remember back in “Ireland of the 80ies” being “in the bank” was one of the most respected middle-class professions there was. 
Then someone would emigrate to the USA to discover that the same position stateside  did not pay well. 
A rung above minimum wage. If you did well in WalMart you might progress to Bank of America.

A couple of decades later and banking profession here has followed the American example.


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## Leper (26 Feb 2021)

I hopped on a double-decker yesterday for Cork's city centre to pay my first visit to my bank in over ten years and also conduct my first cash lodgement in that period. Perhaps the bookies being shut contributed to the lodgement? I was the only customer on the bus and found a ten spot under the seat. My luck is in and I felt better as a result of the find. 

Anyway, I digress. I arrived at the bank and the teller informed me I could lodge the money in the "atm" round the internal corner. Not having a clue about the "new" technology available I went to the machine and it was extremely easy to use; a trained seal could do it! But, a member of staff approached anyway and asked if he could help. My transaction was almost completed and we got talking. I suggested the obvious i.e. he was literally talking himself out of a job.  He agreed, but stated the bank would find another position for him. "I don't think so" says I, but I wished him well and suggested he stay on first name terms with his union rep. 

His answer gobsmacked me. "I don't believe in joining a union" says he. "Suit yourself" says I "but, if I were you, I'd be joining asap." Perhaps the title of this thread is correct and I'm living in some favourable time capsule?

As I left the bank a guy in a tea-cosy hat similar to Jack Nicholson in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest and looking pretty dishevelled asked me for a few pence for a cup of tea. I gave him the aforementioned tenner and his face lit up like he had just received his 2nd dose of the Covid vaccine. I must get out more often, but Mrs Lep's Zoom meeting with the girls has just started and she needs me to somebody fix somebody's sound on a laptop 140 miles away.


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## PGF2016 (26 Feb 2021)

Leper said:


> I hopped on a double-decker yesterday for Cork's city centre to pay my first visit to my bank in over ten years and also conduct my first cash lodgement in that period. Perhaps the bookies being shut contributed to the lodgement? I was the only customer on the bus and found a ten spot under the seat. My luck is in and I felt better as a result of the find.
> 
> Anyway, I digress. I arrived at the bank and the teller informed me I could lodge the money in the "atm" round the internal corner. Not having a clue about the "new" technology available I went to the machine and it was extremely easy to use; a trained seal could do it! But, a member of staff approached anyway and asked if he could help. My transaction was almost completed and we got talking. I suggested the obvious i.e. he was literally talking himself out of a job.  He agreed, but stated the bank would find another position for him. "I don't think so" says I, but I wished him well and suggested he stay on first name terms with his union rep.
> 
> ...


@Leper - I'm intrigued. A genuine question - why did you think about joining a union to protect a job that is being automated? Why not suggest he update his skills to ensure he is employable and valuable to an employer?


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## Leper (26 Feb 2021)

PGF2016 said:


> @Leper - I'm intrigued. A genuine question - why did you think about joining a union to protect a job that is being automated? Why not suggest he update his skills to ensure he is employable and valuable to an employer?


Apologies for the delay in replying. Mrs Lep's Zoom Meeting with the girls ran over by only three hours. The guy was well dressed (suit and tie etc) and sounded like somebody who didn't need advice (he's used to giving advice). I reckon he was doing a part-time 3rd Level Course not on financial subjects anyway just for the entitlement to bring it up during an interview for promotion. Also, I reckon if he lost in his bank shares portfolio, he wouldn't complain either. This guy is the business. He probably thinks he was a bit young to seek constant companionship too. I should point out he sounded extremely helpful and I wish him only the best of luck in his future job outside of the banking sector.


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## Purple (2 Mar 2021)

Leper said:


> I was the only customer on the bus and found a ten spot under the seat.


Was it the kind you snort, sheet or spend?


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