# LUAS - Is that it?



## daltonr (11 May 2004)

I've noticed the Luas on the streets a Dublin a few times recently.   I'm a little worried.

It's tiny.  Originally I couldn't understand why they didn't just build QBC's along the proposed routes, and a few more routes besides, and throw a hundred new busses at it.  Surely that would have gotten as much volume as Luas, and it would have been cheaper and more flexible (Busses can be diverted, can drive around accidents, holes, roadworks etc).

I assumed there was a really good reason, but given the cost of building Luas, and the disruption, and now the relatively small size of the vehicle.  I'm worried that there wasn't a good reason all along.

So,  speak up if you know.
Why didn't they just use QBC's and LOADS of busses.  This isn't the wisdom of hindsight people were asking this before Luas started.

Any ideas?

-Rd


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## Guest (11 May 2004)

Is this any use? Not sure how many carriages each tram will use...

[broken link removed]

Looks like in the future everybody will drive the EU standardised motorised vehicle and each tram will carry an equal number of men and women!


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## daltonr (11 May 2004)

> 235 People



This must include London Tube like stuffing of people.  Judging by the size of the Trams I saw.  

Anyone know what a double decker will take?



> Tallaght Square to Middle Abbey Street: 38 minutes



I'll try driving this next weekend at 2 or 3 in the morning to see how long it would take on a QBC.  Roughly.

For accuracy, I'll speed past all the bus stops like the real busses do.   

More later.

-Rd


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## nogser (11 May 2004)

A double decker takes 98 people (13) standing if my memory from Saturday night is working properly.

Nogser


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## elderdog (11 May 2004)

Rd

You are correct

The Luas is indeed a big mistake

For what has been spent strengthening the streets to take the massive weight of the trams thousands of busses could have been purchased and QBCs / new bus only roads put in and still had most of the Luas budget left over.

Of course busses are more flexible as to how they can be routed ( handy if the next pope visits Knock etc etc ) and can adapt to changes due to real world events ( road works, crashes etc )

I believe the present tram idea dates back to before large diesel engines were made to operate as clean as they do ( & getting cleaner by all accounts )

Luas is expensive, inefficient and very disruptive

( Your standing room allocation on board is 21 inches X 21 inches )


eDog


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## Guest (11 May 2004)

> ( Your standing room allocation on board is 21 inches X 21 inches )

Not 21" x 21" x 21" I hope! :eek


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## sueellen (11 May 2004)

daltonr,

You normally residing in Waterford an' all and despite your trips around the mad roundabouts in the Sqr. it obviously hasn't sunk in that there ain't no QBCs from Tallaght to Abbey St!  

The buses constantly have to pull in/out into the traffic and this delays them.  People regularly spend 1.5/2 hours gettin' from town to Tallaght especially when the lads hold a function in the Castle and block Dame St.


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## piggy (11 May 2004)

The LUAS has been a huge waste of time and more importantly money (did we go over the billion mark yet?).

However, now that we have it it will serve a purpose and will I'm sure be useful.

As for the bus argument, yes...they would have helped alright.
However, what Dublin desperately needs is an underground system. Unfortunately we don't have politicians with the foresight to see this.


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## daltonr (11 May 2004)

> You normally residing in Waterford an' all



Actually I've been in Waterford for 2 years, spending weekends in Dublin.  Prior to that I spent 6 years in Dublin.



> and despite your trips around the mad roundabouts in the Sqr. it obviously hasn't sunk in that there ain't no QBCs from Tallaght to Abbey St!



And my point was that for the price of Luas you could have built such a QBC quite easily.  i.e. in place of tracks you just have Tarmac.   And in places where tarmac already exists, you don't have to dig it up and plant tracks.

It would appear that 3 double decker busses would carry 60 to 70 people more than a Luas Tram.   

-Rd


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## Elcato (11 May 2004)

Isn't the point of the luas rather than buses is the 'lecky' is more efficient in the long run and is 'invoirenmentally furiendely'. I think it looks great and will be a success.


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## daltonr (11 May 2004)

> 'invoirenmentally furiendely'.



Possibly true.  Although you'd have to wonder given how long it's taken, how much it's cost, and how much disruption it's caused if we can afford that kind of 'invoirenmentally furiendely' thinking.  I mean QBC's and Buses would have been more 'invoirenmentally furiendely' than Cars.  And would it have been that much dirtier than Luas in the long run????



> I think it looks great and will be a success.



QBC's would have been a success.  We'd have had them quicker, and there would have been less disruption.

Given the €50 odd million cut in social welfare, have we got our priorities right?   It seems that the difference between 100 million and 1 billion is insignificant if we're spending it on certain projects, but the 20 or 30 grand is impossible to find for others.

I don't know.  I despair.

-Rd


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## Tommy (11 May 2004)

> the 'lecky' is more efficient in the long run and is 'invoirenmentally furiendely'.


 ...not if (as at the moment) we have to burn millions of tonnes of coal at Moneypoint every year in order to generate the 'lecky'


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## sueellen (11 May 2004)

I have never been enthusiastic about LUAS either because I firmly believe we should have gone for the underground option but that's history now.

On the point of QBCs on the Tallaght/Abbey St./Connolly route they would never have made the effort to provide them because:
1.  The major mistake of the Madcowroundabout (which is bad enough with trams never mind buses
2.  Where would a QBC have gone on places like Greenhills Rd/Crumlin Rd because don't forget everyone agrees the present rambling route for the LUAS takes up far too much travelling time.

I on the one hand look forward to the arrival of LUAS becuase I have had enough of struggling in traffic but on the other hand I also think that it will make the traffic worse.  Where it presently goes thru the Belgard Rd. junction it causes the traffic to build up and don't forget its still only testing.

BTW does anyone have any info on the new orbital bus corridor that they're working on on the Belgard Rd.  Looked at the SDCC site a while ago but could not find anything sunstantial about it.  Am I right in thinking that it will mainly service Tallaght/Clondalkin/Lucan?


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## Protocol (12 May 2004)

*Luas bashers*

The Luas tram system for Dublin will be a *huge success*.

The trams will be busy, the demand will be strong.  Other communties will start demanding that the trams be *extended to their areas*.

All over Europe cities are building or extending their light rail/tram networks:

Manchester
Edinburgh
Nottingham
Freiburg
Paris
Bordeaux
Geneva
Barcelona

to name but a few.

Light rail is clean, quiet and fast.  It helps *urban* *regeneration*.  It is popular with customers and commuters.

Yes, the Luas was expensive (€690m).  That includes *two depots*, 40 trams and a lot of diversion *of underground utilities*.

There is one problem with the Luas: it will be a victim of its own success, and the trams will be too packed. The 26 trams on the Tallaght line are shorter at 30m long while the 14 trams on the Sandyford lines are longer at 40m.

At 5-min peak frequencies, I can see the Tallaght trams being packed by the time they reach Heuston. Maybe there should also be short workings from Heuston to Connolly.

I suggest buying the extra 10m module to fit to the Tallaght trams to bring them up to 40m long. BTW, the longest trams in the world are about 45m.

Also, I suggest a move to 4-min frequencies peak, and 10-min off-peak.

I repeat, the trams will be a welcome success.  Roll on the 26th June.


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## Maceface (12 May 2004)

*How negative everyone is (and wrong)*

Firstly, last week on Pat Kenny, there was a guy who was talking about building a metro and saying that we should do it. He was giving his reasons why, and there was a discussion about the costs and how it would compare to the Luas, and to QBCs. 
He talked about the running costs of these (not the setup costs as these are once off) I don't remember the exact figures he gave, but it was something along the lines of 5000 per passenger per year for a bus (98 passengers * 5k = 0.5million to run a bus per year - insurance/tax/diesel/wages/wages for back office/upkeep of QBC/depreciation costs of bus etc etc).
For the Luas, the running costs are something like 1k per passenger (as the Luas can hold about 200-250 passengers), and for the metro, it is something like 500 per passenger.
So, ignoring the metro, and looking at these figures, 

The Luas can transport 5000 people per hour into town.

Assuming a bus takes 98 passengers (a figure someone else used), you would need 50 buses.

I would believe the insurance costs of a bus are substantially higher as they are using the same road as cars (even if it is their own lane).  Luas has its own dedicated road (for the most part).
You would need to pay twice the number of drivers for buses, and need 2 actual buses compared to the one tram. (actually, it will be closer to 4 to 1 - see later)

Anyways, load of figures, but if you think about it, it is substantially cheaper to run the Luas - once it is setup.

It is much greener than diesel from buses.
It is quicker to get people into town - and because of this, you will only need about 13 Luas trams (and drivers) per 50 buses.
It is quieter, and while some people will see the negative in this, it is a positive to anyone living near the line.


I am not bothering to talk about the setup costs as this is irrelevant. Over the course of 100 years, the cost of the Luas line is tiny - and there is no reason why this wouldn't run for 100 years).


Another negative I heard was about the MadCow Roundabout. 
I know this roundabout extemely well, and anyone who travels it will know that the lights can be synched to a stage where the tram will cross the on/off ramps and main road when the lights are normally red.

I agree that this will be a huge success - at least as big as the Dart. Look at the uproar and inconvience when this closed at the weekends.

Plus, one final thing - it gives the city a huge boost and I have to say I think we are getting there and becoming quite a modern city, with that, the M50 extention, the M1.
Just remember what it was like 20 years ago!

Nation of begrudgers is right.


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## Guest (12 May 2004)

*How negative everyone is (and wrong)*

> Just remember what it was like 20 years ago!

Not to mention 50+ years ago when we already had a fully fledged tram system up and running!


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## piggy (12 May 2004)

*Re: How negative everyone is (and wrong)*

I don't think it's anything to do with negativity or begrudgery.
Just because we've spent close to a billion euro on a new transport system doesn't mean we need to praise Jebus for it.

Recognising that something will be beneficial to transport problems and recognising that it was the wrong thing to do in the first place are two different things.

The fact of the matter is, Dublin is growing (outwards) and logically what we need is an underground system. We're going to need it in the future regardless...so why not have spent that billion euro investing in it instead. I have no idea how much an underground system would cost, however, if the LUAS is anything to go by multiply it by 5 to find out it's real cost.


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## nogser (12 May 2004)

*Re: How negative everyone is (and wrong)*

On LINE B Sandyford from the RPA





> We are scheduled to carry passengers in June 2004 - end of.



Good bad or indifferent it is nearly here.  The arguements of Luas vs Metro for this line don't really count as the line is built to take metro trains when/if the upgrade comes. 

I'm happy anyway as I live 5 mins from a station so I'd like to thank you all for paying your taxes and building me a nice public transport system near my house and not yours.

Nogser


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## Elcato (12 May 2004)

*Re: How negative everyone is (and wrong)*



> QBC's would have been a success. We'd have had them quicker, and there would have been less disruption.


On the Harcourt street line this would have been the same as we still would have to build the old/new bridges relay foundations etc. Probably a bit dearer for the tallaght line but we still would have to have put new roads in place (re: Maryland old canal, middle lane of Nass road).
Regarding cost, nobody has mentioned the amount of employment it has created. 
I was not a fan of luas at the start but I'm coming around to the idea now that I see an end result.


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## shnaek (12 May 2004)

*Re: How negative everyone is (and wrong)*

Dublins traffic problems will never be solved as it has been allowed to grow outwards instead of upwards. Take a look at LA - because that's what Dublin is going to be like. Until teleportation is commonly available


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## purple (12 May 2004)

*near your house*

Not to mention how the close proximity to the line will push up your house price. Well done! 
It's nice to see someone get capital appreciation due to infrastructural investment that isn't a farmer.
If anyone gives out about your good fortune, just smile at them.


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## Bridget (12 May 2004)

*traffic in Dublin*

One solution put forward in the 1970s was to pave over the canals and make a dual carraigway instead.  The Luas is MUCH better!

Am a little concerned about the proviso that cyclists should stay off the tram-only roads eg Upr Abbey St.  Seeing I've been wrestling with Luas lines for the last year - and the amount of popholes and scattered gravel - I don't how why I shouldn't travel on those roads.  Any cyclist who hasn't learnt to take the lines at 45 degree angle yet isn't a road cyclist!  But in favour of Luas, we got my daughter's free reflective jacket for cyclists from the Luas yesterday - saved me €17.

Luas very busy this morning - anyone notice them?


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## Maceface (12 May 2004)

*Re: traffic in Dublin*

I got my jacket yesterday as well. A bit disappointed that they mentioned Luas on the back, but it is free!


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## Max Hopper (13 May 2004)

Coming from A'dam, the LUAS is a hopeless drop in the ocean. What I am concerned about is why after 20 years of CIE's failings to provide Park 'n Ride areas for DART stations, the RPA barrels ahead with the same concept. 

Let's project fowards to a rainy October morning in 2004 at the Sandyford 'end of the stick'. All the northbound commuters (Foxrock, Galloping Green, Blackrock, Dun Laoghaire, you get the picture) are funnelling into the industrial estate. Not that the planning permission for the estate was brilliant either, what with two single-lane accesses from the N11. But did the morons at the RPA allocate, design, contemplate, or even recognise that the southern terminus has no parking? Now all the good commuters will forego the tram today and queue on the N11 into town. A couple more days like that and ridership will be in the toilet.


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## OpusnBill (13 May 2004)

*Luas jacket*

Bridget and Maceface,

When did you order the jackets?


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## Maceface (14 May 2004)

*Re: Luas jacket*

I think I ordered mine about 2 weeks ago.
There was a message on this site about it, and I reckon I would have sent away about 4 days after that.


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## nogser (14 May 2004)

*Re: Luas jacket*



> But did the morons at the RPA allocate, design, contemplate, or even recognise that the southern terminus has no parking?



I cycle past this daily and all the available space between the terminus and the first stop coming from Sandyford has been laid out for parking.

Nogser


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## maxhopper (14 May 2004)

From Brennan's 'The Pocket Rocket' official website : *The Pocket Rocket*

```
<snip>
```
which will serve commuters from Sandyford to St. Stephen’s Green. It will contain a wash plant, sanding plant, wheel turning lathe and workshop as well as a small control centre for the trams servicing this line. Park and Ride facilities for 90 cars will be available adjacent to the depot with additional spaces provided at the nearby Stillorgan stop.

```
</snip>
```

And the LUAS site: *L*ow tech *U*nder planned *A*mateurish *S*treetcar

[broken link removed] *=* [broken link removed]  

Regardless of what your eyes deceive you into believing, there has been *no* planning.


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## Observer (18 May 2004)

*Re:  Re: LUAS - Is that it?*

Luas will be brilliant for those fortunate enough to live close to a line.  Otherwise it will have little overall impact in terms of reducing traffic.

Also, I can't agree that it looks great.  In fact the overhead power lines and supports are dog-ugly, angular, obtrusive eye-sores.   I can only imagine what the environmentalistas would be saying if that infrastructure was mooted for, say, mobile telephony or ESB power distribution.  Frank McDonald would get a month's worth of Irish Times articles out of it.  But once it's for public transport, it's great.  And if it takes road space away from the hated "private car", green canonisation beckons.  Never mind the logic, feel the ideology.

As was perfectly obvious to the Victorians, rapid transit systems belong underground in city centres.


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## temptedd (18 May 2004)

*Re:  Re: LUAS - Is that it?*

I agree about the bad asthetics of the Luas lines and supports. They look dreadful and are swinging off protected structures, such as some of the old and beautiful buildings around Stephens Green.  I really resent looking up at the stars through a mesh of ugly webs of steel cables. 

Between the Luas and the dreadful development laws allowing blocks of apartments on every blade of grass or concrete patch they can find, they are tearing the guts out of our city and we're sitting back and letting them. Every election candidate that hits my door is going to get an earful.


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## Salla (18 May 2004)

*looking up...*

temptedd:

when was the last time you saw the stars from Dublin - even before the Luas?  

We are one of the worst light polluters on the planet.  

Unnecessary upward glare has been the subject of a big campaign by iguzzini.com, a light fitting manufacturer.


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## daltonr (18 May 2004)

*Re: looking up...*



> are tearing the guts out of our city and we're sitting back and letting them.



It's happening in all our cities.  There's a very good series on Radio 1 on Sundays about this.  Galway is another good example of bad planning (Apparently, I haven't seen it myself recently).

-Rd


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## legend99 (18 May 2004)

*..*

I lives in Cork...but what does anyone who lives any distance away from the northside DART have to benefit them...nothing????
Aren't both LUAS lines on the Southside??? Bizarre....read some stuff for these guys and they seem to have good points.

In addition, Cork has been crying out for approval of the re-opening of the Midleton main line train line. Been waiting for decision for months and months, well over a year......strangely enough it looks like the decision is going to be positive and come out just a few weeks before the local elections...isn't that a stroke of luck now wouldn't you think.....


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## Elcato (18 May 2004)

*Re: ..*



> but what does anyone who lives any distance away from the northside DART have to benefit them...nothing????


The northside has the benifit of an arrow system (which is similar) which snakes into the likes of Drumcondra, Clonsilla and Blanch on its way out to leixlip/Maynooth. It also has the benifit of extending the dart to Malahide and Balbriggan on the way to Drogheda. Granted not ideal but still more than the Southside had.


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## legend99 (18 May 2004)

*..*

The LUAS at peak times will have a tram every five minutes...how often are those Northside stations served by Arrow Trains...once an hour....once every 2 hours??


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## mollser (18 May 2004)

*Re: ..*

in my experience, the Northside also has a far superior road network, to easily facilitate the introduction of QBC's. Almost all of the radial routes on de NS are capable of carrying 4 lanes of traffic. This is not so on the southside, with the exception of Stillorgan N11 and Blackrock road. Anything west of these to Tallaght are small narrow roads, not capable of handling continuous bus lanes.


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## temptedd (19 May 2004)

*Re: ..*



> temptedd:
> when was the last time you saw the stars from Dublin - even before the Luas?



Every clear night on my cul de sac in the centre of Dublin.


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## Kevin the Gerbil (19 May 2004)

*And the last time you had a clear night was ?*

?


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