# Solicitor appointed himself as executor to my mother's will



## Dublinlass (4 Sep 2012)

Hi,

My mother made out her will recently and asked if I would be the Executor. She showed me the will because I will be the Executor. 

Everything will be divided equally. The problem we have is that the Solicitor is at the bottom of the will stating that they will deal with the estate. My mother said that she did not ask for this. 

I told her that I could deal with it myself and she said that she is happy for me to do this. Is it possible for it to be taken out of the will or should I just leave it?

Many thanks
Dublinlass


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## mf1 (4 Sep 2012)

Why is it there at all? Did your mother agree to it? Ask for it? Is it possible that she does not actually understand what she is doing? Or that she was brow beaten into it? 

Your mother should make a new will - she can go back to the original solicitor and ask for the will to be re-printed and re-executed showing her preferred choice of executor. At no charge.  

Or go to another solicitor, if she does not want to go back to the first solicitor? 

Or just copy out the will to the letter  save only for the appointment of the solicitor as executor and sign it in front of two non benefitting witnesses.  

mf


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## Dublinlass (5 Sep 2012)

Hi mf,

To be honest I dont think that mam understands what she's doing. They must have asked her if she wanted them to deal with it and knowing mam she would just have agreed without fully understanding. You see Dad used to deal with everything. 

Thanks for giving me a few options. I will let mam know.

Thanks for taking the time to reply


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## elcato (5 Sep 2012)

> Or just copy out the will to the letter  save only for the appointment  of the solicitor as executor and sign it in front of two non benefitting  witnesses.


Is this legally binding ? Can someone just write a will and get two witnesses without any legal rubber stamping ?


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## mf1 (5 Sep 2012)

elcato said:


> Is this legally binding ? Can someone just write a will and get two witnesses without any legal rubber stamping ?



Yes. It is. So long as it's done right! And yes, there are a myriad of things that can go wrong. 

But here, the OP has an original will. They can just write/print it out again - save for the reference to the solicitor as executor- appoint whoever else is to be the  executor. 

Have testator/ix sign and have the signature witnessed by two people. The new will revokes the old will. 

Mind you, now that you say it, I often find that my own clients do not seem to be able to sign forms correctly even where you stand over them  and point!

mf


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## Vanilla (5 Sep 2012)

mf1 said:


> Mind you, now that you say it, I often find that my own clients do not seem to be able to sign forms correctly even where you stand over them and point!


 
Picture the scene: client is signing a statutory declaration. Solicitor points to blank space after explaining document and client indicates willingness to sign. 

'Sign here.' She points in general area- client has ample room to manoevre.

Client points to line where Commissioner for Oaths signs ( just because there is a line). 'Here?'

'No, over here.' Solicitor points to large blank area again. 

Client moves biro towards line as if magnetically attracted.

'Anywhere around here.' Solicitor tries again.

Client signs on line and looks up to check they are right.  

'Fine, fine.' Solicitor gives up.

This happens at least one in five times...what is it about people and lines?


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## mercman (5 Sep 2012)

OP, MF has made a very good point. Have the will rewritten and signed again. The solicitor appears to beacting like a vulture ready to piounce on fees. Perhaps you should agree a fixed percentage of fees now to avoid any confusion in the future.


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## mf1 (6 Sep 2012)

Thanks, Vanilla, for making me laugh!

And mercman, you might just re-read OP's last post where she says ..........

"To be honest I dont think that mam understands what she's doing. They must have asked her if she wanted them to deal with it and knowing mam she would just have agreed without fully understanding."

before you go off on one :

"The solicitor appears to be acting like a vulture ready to piounce on fees."

Reminds me of one of those funny comments: every morning  I get up and take my exercise, you know the one, jumping to conclusions!

mf


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## Bronte (6 Sep 2012)

Elcato anyone can do their own will, the problem is most people are bound to get it incorrect meaning the will is invalid. Eason's used to sell DIY wills. 

In relation to the lines on documents, my solicitor puts a post it type stickly on the location and an X in pencil. 

I suppose if documents had a line under which was written purchaser signs here, or will maker signs here (rather than testator) it would be hard to go wrong. Or in pencil write the name of the person. Mr X signs here. There must be something wrong with the design of legal documents if so many people get it wrong. Who don't the legal eagles make the documents fool proof ! Mercman probably has a view on why !

For the sake of about 100 Euro I don't understand why people will not use a solicitor. The cheapest legal service is will making. Credit unions used to have a solicitor for this if I remember correctly. The reason it is cheap is that generally the solicitor who holds the will ends up doing the probate which is amongst the most lucrative legal work. 

From Vanilla or MF1(a couple of years ago on here) as far as I know it is not best practice from the Law Society for a solicitor to appoint themselves as executor, they might clarify this?

Dublinlass all your mother has to do is go back to the solicitor and say she wants the solicitor's clause taken out of the will as she never wanted it in the first place.


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## mercman (6 Sep 2012)

mf1 said:


> before you go off on one :
> 
> "The solicitor appears to be acting like a vulture ready to pounce on fees."
> 
> ...



Now that is a bit rich. It's common knowledge that the legal profession go milking when it comes down to probate issues. The set fees are off the wall and in 99% of cases require very little legal work. How many threads are there on AAM where there have been issues with the legal profession concerning wills and estates ? 

So I'm not off on one. It's the paranoia of the legal profession when somebody queries a fee.


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## mf1 (6 Sep 2012)

You're missing the point, mercman. 

Read the posts. No-one queried fees in this thread.

mf


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## T McGibney (6 Sep 2012)

mercman said:


> Perhaps you should agree a fixed percentage of fees now to avoid any confusion in the future.



...so if the client experiences a windfall, or asset values inflate,  in the meantime, the agreed legal bill increases sharply? Any solicitor would love clients like this


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## Bronte (6 Sep 2012)

T McGibney said:


> ...so if the client experiences a windfall, or asset values inflate, in the meantime, the agreed legal bill increases sharply? Any solicitor would love clients like this


 
I've yet to see a solicitor charge the same probabe fees for a house worth 30K versus a house of 10million, even if it's the same work.  I think that's the issue.  

I think Mercman's point is that the solicitor is ensuring that he does the probate in the future as it is a good fee earner, and that it would be a better world if the client could agree now to pay that probate fee so that no dispute arises later.  It cannot be done of course but I think that is his point.  No doubt he'll correct me if I misunderstand him.


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## mercman (6 Sep 2012)

I don't think I'm missing the point. In most cases when wills are being written fees are never discussed. Most people find it quite difficult whilst writing their own will. The fees part normally comes into play after the deceased beneficiaries look at costs, and are only challenged by a non legal executor.


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## T McGibney (6 Sep 2012)

mercman said:


> In most cases when wills are being written fees are never discussed. Most people find it quite difficult whilst writing their own will. The fees part normally comes into play after the deceased beneficiaries look at costs, and are only challenged by a non legal executor.



You are 100% correct here. I've seen cases where people availed of 'cheap' will drafting only for their next-of-kin to be savaged by crazy probate fees after their demise.


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## Dublinlass (6 Sep 2012)

Hi all,

Mam's going to go back to the solicitor and tell them that she wants the solicitor's clause taken out of the will as she never wanted it in the first place. 

Thanks


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## Vanilla (6 Sep 2012)

Bronte said:


> In relation to the lines on documents, my solicitor puts a post it type stickly on the location and an X in pencil.


\

Even in person? Won't someone please think of the planet?!

There is nothing in Law Society 'best practice' about a solicitor being an executor. I've personally adopted a policy of explaining to clients who ask for me to be the executor about costs and moving wills. In general I find that people who make the decision that they want a solicitor to be executor are less concerned about costs than they are about having someone independent 'arbitrate' the estate after they are gone.

In the above case though, the OP's post is a bit confusing. Is the solicitor actually the executor or the OP. Is it the case that the OP is actually the executor but the will has a clause stating that the estate must be dealt with by 'XY" solicitors? I have seen these clauses before and I don't agree with them. I find it hard to believe that a testator would want to state that in a will and it sounds as if it was prompted by the solicitor. Of course it is possible that it was suggested, explained and agreed but I still don't agree with them from a personal point of view.

I wouldnt agree with a DIY will in any circumstances as there is too much potential to go wrong- many solicitors are doing 'free' wills this month- albeit with a voluntary donation to charity- so that could be an option.

@mercman- I couldnt see how someone making a will could 'agree' fees in advance with a firm of solicitors. A will speaks from death, the executor has charge of the will after that. What is part of the estate ( and therefore what work is necessary) is only determined at the valuation date. This is likely in many cases to be substantially different from when the will is made.


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## Bronte (6 Sep 2012)

Vanilla said:


> \
> 
> Even in person? Won't someone please think of the planet?!
> 
> .


 
No not in person, if I'd signed incorrectly printing more documents would also cost.  And in my effort to save the planet and bearing in mind my own very cost conscious solcitor (true) I sent back the documents with said post it's in place so they could be reused  Which I'm positive they would be.


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## Dublinlass (28 Sep 2012)

Hi all, i rang solicitors office and spoke to her secretary and she told me that there is no need to take it out as its just a request. The exact wording is as follows:- "I request that the firm of ............. be retained as Solicitors to administer my estate".            

Does this mean that i dont have to deal with them if i dont want to?

Many thanks


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## Bronte (1 Oct 2012)

Dublinlass said:


> :- "I request ".
> 
> Does this mean that i dont have to deal with them if i dont want to?


 
I don't think it's right a secretary giving you legal advice, also she shouldn't be discussing your mother's will with you.  

The legal eagles will have to clarify if 'I request' means a request or it has to be implemented.  Personally I think it's the latter. 

 Far easier for transparency and for your mother's wishes to have the clause removed.


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## Dublinlass (2 Oct 2012)

Thanks Bronte 

Would anyone know if 'I request' means a request or does it mean that it has to be implemented?  

many thanks


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## Vanilla (2 Oct 2012)

I haven't seen that wording before. In general if it went to court, the court will look at the ordinary meaning of the word, so 'I request' is simply a request, not an order or prerequisite. When I draft wills if the testator wants to express a desire, but allow the executor to change if required, I usually draft it more along the lines:' IT is my wish that....but I do not make a specific direction in that regard.'

In order to be sure, perhaps you could ask the solicitor to put it in writing, or change the will.


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## Dublinlass (4 Oct 2012)

Thanks Bronte


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## Bronte (4 Oct 2012)

Dublinlass said:


> Thanks Bronte


 
And what about Vanilla who is the expert?


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## Vanilla (4 Oct 2012)

Bronte said:


> And what about Vanilla who is the expert?


 
Thanks Bronte.


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## Dublinlass (5 Oct 2012)

So sorry Vanilla. Had a quick look at this site on my phone and thought the last post was from Bronte 

Thanks Vanilla and everyone for their feedback on this. 

Much appreciated


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## polar (7 Oct 2012)

Have it removed if possible. The lawyer is simply setting themselves for administration fees of between 5 to 10k. If it is not your mother's last wish that this lawyer should be her executor, then she should make a new will repudiating all former wills.


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## polar (7 Oct 2012)

Secretaries are not trained lawyers and as such are prohibited from giving legal advice. Anyone in my practice doing so would be reprimanded. Redraft the will


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## Dublinlass (17 Oct 2012)

Thanks Polar and Equal for coming back to me on this.  Much appreciated


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## NOAH (15 Nov 2012)

"problem we have is that the Solicitor is at the bottom of the will stating that they will deal with the estate" 

 Now the way I read the role of the executor is that they deal with all aspects of the will and can if they wish appoint a solicitor to deal with the estate or bits of.  Now any good solicitor would know that this is the case so why did they add in that bit at the end?

and this is the bit that has me really intrigued and the answers,  " I request that the firm of ............. be retained as Solicitors to administer my estate". 

The legal interpreation of a request is  .. a request is never a request ..  unless it is in .. writing.  In other words  a request in writing is not a wish, an expectation, a maybe,  if this happens,  and so on.  

It is in fact an order, a command,  an instruction or whatever you may wish to call it  and  it is legally binding. 

The simple answer and the correct answer to the OP was "  Tear up that original will, draw up a new one with the request bit  removed"  

END OF


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