# Moved to Germany 3 years ago, paid 10yrs+ PRSI in Ireland, what pension do I get?



## murphaph (27 Sep 2012)

Hello all,
I am looking at my pension situation at the moment. Here are some basic facts about me:

-34 years old next month
-started insurable employment in Ireland (according to my E301 form) on the 30/11/1998
-left insurable employment in Ireland on the 15/2/2009
-I think that's 529 contributions in Ireland
-Travelled for a year or so, settling down in Germany and returning to insurable employment here in Berlin in early 2010

I discovered from a friend here that he pays voluntary NI contributions in the UK to "keep up" his UK pension. I googled around and it seems that this is not possible in Ireland, though the DSP seem to quote "European rules" as the reason:


> Under EU legislation it not possible for a person to be subject to the social insurance systems of two or more member states at the same time. This means that you cannot pay Voluntary Contributions in Ireland at the same time as you are in insurable employment, self-employment, receiving credited contributions or paying Voluntary Contributions in another EU member state.


http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Topics/PRSI/Pages/volcons.aspx

Does anyone know if this is BS? Surely if the UK allows it then it isn't contrary to any EU laws?

Assuming I can't make voluntary contributions, what will happen to my 10 yrs of PRSI contributions in Ireland?

Do I need to have them added to the German system? Do I need to do anything before retirement?

Quite confused and would hate to think that 10 years work would count for nothing (hoping it doesn't). It is unlikely that I'll return to employment in Ireland as life has taken me this way. Any help appreciated.


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## Janet (27 Sep 2012)

You're assuming that your friend is doing everything "by the rules" - it's always possible that they are paying NI contributions without having officially told anyone in the UK that they don't live there (still using a parent's address, for example).

At any rate, based on what this page  from citizens information has to say, if you worked in another EU country you would be able to transfer your credits over to Ireland, which means the opposite should also be possible.  I know there is a form (an E-something or other), you can get to transfer PRSI credits to Germany although I haven't gotten around to doing it either.  It might be better to contact the Rentenversicherung in Berlin and ask them.

Have you read this TT thread  as well?


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## Janet (27 Sep 2012)

Also check out this thread: Does state contributory pension discriminate against early starters/ broken record?  - there's a link to a social welfare page where you can request a statement of your pension entitlements.


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## gipimann (27 Sep 2012)

Just to clarify that the link in the thread mentioned above is to request a statement of a person's contribution record, not their pension entitlements.


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## murphaph (27 Sep 2012)

Janet said:


> Also check out this thread: Does state contributory pension discriminate against early starters/ broken record?  - there's a link to a social welfare page where you can request a statement of your pension entitlements.


Hi Janet,
Yes I already saw that page and sent off my request. Not sure if that's the same as an E301 (which i already have and which took several weeks to arrive)

I don't think my pal is breaking any UK rules. Even the Deutscherentenversicherung states (in English) on their website that a German citizen or someone who has contributed to the German system (for a minmum period, think 5 years) can continue to voluntarily contribute if they so wish.

The German state pension is not exactly an attractive ROI and I wouldn't be too keen on putting in one penny more into it than I have to but the Irish one is quite generous IMO (at least at present) so I'd be more than happy to continue paying voluntarily into it, but apparently we're not allowed to (even though 2 large EU countries don't seem to have problem with their citizens doing exactly that when they move abroad within the EU).

Do you know if at the end of the day I'll (and you too I suppose!) receive 1 or 2 pensions? (assuming i don't work anywhere else in between).


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## Janet (27 Sep 2012)

At the moment I think that I'll get two pensions - but it's looking like the Irish one isn't going to pay out an awful lot if they take my contributions (made over 17 years or so) and use them against an average which is worked out over my full working life (which, based on starting at 16 (for PRSI purposes) will be 50 years or so).  But I have to admit that I haven't spent much time figuring this stuff out yet.  If I can get a better and/or an earlier pension here by transferring my contributions over, I'll do it.  But from what I can see, if I transfer my contributions, I'm not transferring the contributins as such, just the number of months/years.  Which would mean that instead of having to have paid in for x number of years here, I'd only have to pay in for x minus the years I paid in in Ireland.  I'm not sure if that means that I'd still also have access to an Irish state pension or not though.

I also need to figure out what to do with the two other pensions I have going in Ireland.  As in, when I worked, there was always the possibility of starting a separate pension and, being a sensible girl, I always did it.  Just like I started a Riesterente in Germany a couple of years ago.  But starting them is easy, as is letting the money go into them automatically every month.  It's the tidying up the other end of it I need to concentrate on.  Because if I'm not able for it now, I don't really see that I'm going to be any more able for it in 25 years.  

Am interested to see if anyone else can shed any light on this, too but will have to get my head down and do a bit of gruntwork on figuring out exactly what I have first, I think.


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## murphaph (27 Sep 2012)

I am also pretty convinced now (after reading the document from the DRV in the link below) that I will (assuming nothing changes and I work here in Germany until retirement) get 2 pensions. 

I (like you) have reached the minimum contributions (520) to be automatically eligible for a contributory pension in Ireland, regardless of other EU contributions. We get the Irish pension in its own right, so to speak. At current rates (lol) I would be entitled to €92 pw (10-14 contributions average per year of working life-it is based on when you entered insured employment AFAIK, not simply at age 16) from Ireland.

I would then be entitled to a German state pension based on their criteria (complicated points based system that can't easily be summarised here) which would take into account my salary, months worked and contributions paid. 

You must make at least 5 years contributions to the German system to be eligible for any pension but contributions in any other EU (and some other) states can be used to gain this eligibility, but not to "top up" your German pension (same rules apply in Ireland AFAICS)

I've also got a private pension that was compulsory at the firm I worked most of my time in Ireland for, which I'm also curious about (contributed to that for about 8 years). That will be an interesting one too.

[broken link removed]


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## Janet (27 Sep 2012)

I think I'm going to try and find a day to go to the DRV and just ask them about it in person.  I should get that certificate of contributions in Ireland first.  Knowing my luck my dad probably kept me on the books for the times I was in Germany as a student, keeping my wages for himself and I'll be disqualified from everything on the basis of clearly having been unable to be working in both countries at the same time (drama queen pessimist? Moi? Never!)


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## murphaph (29 Jun 2014)

Reviving an old thread here as things have changed a bit..

@Janet: the changes announced to pensions in Ireland will probably work out in your favour. By the time you retire, the averaging mechanism will have been replaced by a "total contributions" mechanism. A full contributory pension will be due to anyone who makes 30 years worth of contributions (52 contributions being 1 year), regardless of how that was achieved. Anything over that and there's no benefit, anything less and it's pro-rata so assuming your 17 years were all "complete" (ie, 52 contributions) then you'll get 17/30 of a full contributory pension, which is probably better than the averaged result because you started working as a teenager.

In my case it seems it will reduce my expected pension by a tenner a week by my calculations, ho hum.

I am currently excluded from paying voluntary PRSI contributions in Ireland (I have rental income there but am not subject to PRSI as I'm non-resident and it is forbidden to make contributions, even voluntarily, as I am socially insured in another EU state, though this "EU" rule still seems shady to me or Germany wouldn't allow it either) BUT...

I intend leaving socially insured employment before Irish retirement age (around 60 if everything works out) and living from my rental income and private pension fund alone until my German state pension kicks in and later on my Irish one. 

I wonder then, could I leave my employment in Germany, briefly return to Ireland at age 60 and become liable for PRSI on my Irish rental income (not socially insured elsewhere and not non-resident) and then return to Germany, continuing to pay PRSI Class S voluntary contributions to boost my ultimate pension entitlement a bit? Any takers on this question?


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## Jim2007 (29 Jun 2014)

murphaph said:


> Any takers on this question?



By the time we get to pension age they will have had enough pension reform and austerity that you'll just end up with one pension based on your total contributions in the EU/EEA states


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## Black Sheep (29 Jun 2014)

Unless you have a crystal ball it would be impossible to say what will happen to pensions as we know them at present. There have been many changes to pensions in the past couple years and many more to come in the next few years.

At present your eu contributions would be taken into consideration to boost your Irish pension but what affect that would have in the far distant future is unknown. Only a couple of years ago, with those contributions (and the eu ones) you could expect over a half rate pension.   Not anymore!


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