# Why are those with free travel allowed to use it during rush hour?



## Brendan Burgess (21 Jun 2018)

I don't really understand how this is even being discussed, so what am I missing? 

OAPs have a free travel pass.  I support it fully. It's a great idea and I know lots of people who use it extensively. 

But they should not be allowed to use it during peak times. They can plan their journeys to travel at other times.  Workers have no choice but to travel at rush hour. 

And, of course, OAPs are not banned from traveling whenever they want. They would just have to pay for it during rush hour. 

Didn't this used to be the case? 

Brendan


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## mtk (21 Jun 2018)

Brendan Burgess said:


> I
> And, of course, OAPs are not banned from traveling whenever they want. They would just have to pay for it during rush hour.
> 
> Didn't this used to be the case?
> ...


yes before 2006 on buses no free peak travel


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## Brendan Burgess (21 Jun 2018)

And I also see that it can't be used on the Dublin Bus Nitelink services or the Dublin Bus Airport Services. 

But I think that it can be used on Aircoach? 

Brendan


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## Delboy (21 Jun 2018)

The genie is out of the bottle here. No Govt takes anything off of OAP's. So when FF allowed unrestricted travel as a vote buying exercise back in 2006, that was case closed.
I don't know why someone like Robert Watt would even bring this up as his political masters will not touch it with a barge pole. But calls for him to resign/be fired are over the top nonsense/hype of the worst kind.


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## Brendan Burgess (21 Jun 2018)

In the UK, local buses are free. 

https://www.ageuk.org.uk/informatio...ents/free-bus-pass-and-transport-concessions/

But on the trains, they get a 30% discount. 

Brendan


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## Purple (21 Jun 2018)

This is just a drop in  the ocean when viewed in the context of the handouts OAP's get.
I'd rather see the removal of the over 70's medical card and the extra tax free allowances they get.


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## Brendan Burgess (21 Jun 2018)

Hi Purple 

I fully support allowing free travel for OAPs. I think it's very liberating and a great idea. 

But it's a question of the pressure it puts on travel at peak times.  If there are OAPs going out for a jaunt on buses which are full which have to leave workers behind, then I would support restrictions. 

Of course, if the data show that there are very few OAPs on buses at peak times, then there would be no need for such a change.

Brendan


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## Opus2018 (21 Jun 2018)

Hi Brendan,

I also vaguely recall that the travel pass for OAPs was extended slight back years ago in the morning.  The reason?  It was to allow use by people to get them to mass on time!  Who brought it in?  Mr. C.J. Haughey!

Also am I right in thinking along with free travel itself can't an OAP bring along someone with them for free too?  Not overly pushed on this in case of securing access, but one would wonder about the possibility of abuse.  Having said that, I don't know what the take up level is though.

Overall, no real difficulty with the point that you are making.  However, if an OAP needed access at peak times to get to a medical appointment say, then again I wouldn't see that as an issue.

Best,

Opus2018.


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## Brendan Burgess (21 Jun 2018)

Opus2018 said:


> can't an OAP bring along someone with them for free too?



An OAP may bring their designated spouse or partner. 

A disabled person may bring someone else with them for free - they don't have to be designated.

"a specified carer for a person getting Constant Attendance Allowance or Prescribed Relatives Allowance from this Department (you may get a single status card only, if you are under age 66)"


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## dereko1969 (21 Jun 2018)

One of the issues is that many hospital appointments would necessitate peak-hour travel.

The main issue though is the fact that only 50% of free-travel card holders are OAPs, the rest are on disability and for other reasons.

Anyway they should be to ascertain from the PSC LEAP-enabled cards how much of an issue it actually is.


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## odyssey06 (21 Jun 2018)

Now that we have LEAP enabled cards, it should be possible to assign the benefits at a more granular level e.g. OAPs and other pass holders with a limited credit amount which can be used during rush hour, automatically topped up per month; but unlimited at other times.


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## dereko1969 (21 Jun 2018)

You could only do that when the entire PT system is LEAP enabled, don't think that's the case yet. Not going to fly anyway.


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## Purple (21 Jun 2018)

Ye can take nothin' from the Pensioners; they all vote.


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## Darthvadar (21 Jun 2018)

This idea that people who have free travel have no need to travel at peak times is absolute bull, if you'll pardon the expression.

There was a restriction before 2006, but people with disabilities have been 'getting out there' more in recent years, and making a significant contribution to our communities through working, volunteering, and educating ourselves. It's important that we can do all the things we need to do when we need to do it, not when it suits someone else for us to do so. Also, when the economy was booming, there was a need for the fitter, stronger older people to 'don the green jersey' and take on lots of jobs that needed to be done, but couldn't be filled. Lots of people worked way beyond age 65, and continue to do so.  There are a lot of grandparents who are unpaid/low paid childminders, allowing parents to go to work. They often need to travel to and from the children they care for.

There are people with disabilities who attend college, rehab centres, volunteer placements, and work, yes, work... Lots of people with FTPs ARE working!. Some in part time Rehabilitative roles, some full time, some volunteering, but mostly on low incomes if they still have Free Travel.

I haven't even mentioned hospital, dentist, chiropodists, doctors appointments etc. We have no control over clinic times. Then there are a lot of us who have significant disabilities, and myself included, who function much better early in the morning. I tend to do all of the things I need to do to function around early peak times. Things like shopping, getting prescriptions, going to the library, etc. 

And that doesn't include carers who don't/can't live with the person they care for. They have FT to enable them to travel to and from the person they care for, and allow them to do shopping, and other errands etc. for the person they care for. Tell the person being cared for that they have to wait until after peak times to get out of bed, to shower, to eat, and drink, not to mention use the toilet!. Will you wait until off peak to have your first toilet visit of the day?.

So no, I don't support off peak only travel. Surprisingly, disabled people like to have lives, too. Oh, and the suggestion of paying fares on-peak, remember, living with a disability is far more expensive, so FT is a very small contribution to those additional costs.

Darth.


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## emeralds (21 Jun 2018)

[broken link removed]


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## RETIRED2017 (21 Jun 2018)

Brendan Burgess said:


> I don't really understand how this is even being discussed, so what am I missing?
> 
> OAPs have a free travel pass.  I support it fully. It's a great idea and I know lots of people who use it extensively.
> 
> ...


I suspect whoever brought this up in the first place  lack common since I suspect most card holders  avoid rush hour unless the need to travel at that time, there are lots of people making a good living out of providing services to people using the free travel card,
I payed into the Prsi fund all of my life (47 years) seeing over 19% taken in payroll   PRSI in the 1980 until the usc came in around 2010 when it dropped to 14.75%

I suspect you have forgotten the people now retired  taxed under PAYE on low wages payed  very high taxes most of there life
When you get a chance check it out for your self,

Socialist love Capitalist gone wrong who see nothing wrong with taken more from the people who paid into the system all of there life so it can be Squandered I think it is lack of common since that causes it,

I often wonder Is it people who got away without paying there way in the first place who have a problem understanding and are unhappy and think they are more important than other people for lots of reasons and the travel pass ts there flavor of the month at present,


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## Brendan Burgess (21 Jun 2018)

Hi Darth 

The free travel for the elderly is not allowed during rush hours in most other jurisdictions which have free travel. 

Some restrict it for the elderly, but have no restrictions for those with a disability. 

If a disabled person or elderly person is working and they want to take public transport to work, then they can afford to pay for it.

The point made by Robert Watt was that we should have  a discussion on the issue.  It's about the best way to use a congested infrastructure. 

Brendan


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## Brendan Burgess (21 Jun 2018)

RETIRED2017 said:


> I suspect you have forgotten the people now retired taxed under PAYE on low wages payed very high taxes most of there life
> When you get a chance check it out for your self,



Hi Retired 

We have a €200 billion national debt as our legacy. 

We have €200 billion more of unfunded pension liabilities. 

The amount paid in tax and PRSI was not enough to fund the very high pensions and benefits paid in Ireland.

Brendan


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## Darthvadar (21 Jun 2018)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Hi Darth
> 
> The free travel for the elderly is not allowed during rush hours in most other jurisdictions which have free travel.
> 
> ...




Thank you for taking the time to reply, Brendan.

Think we'll always differ on this one.

The 'Other Juristrictions' argument doesn't wash with me. I live, and function, and deal with the cost of living in this juristriction. To me, it falls into the 'If he sticks his hand in the fire will you?', argument. 

Many disabled people have not had the educational, and career opportunities that non-disabled people have. Supports like SNAs, access to scribes, etc. have only happened recently. As a result, many, many people can only do the most 'menial' or unskilled jobs, and so are on very low incomes. As there are vastly increased costs involved with being disabled, they may well be really struggling.  So no, they may not 'be able to afford it'. 

Yes, we should discuss the congestion issue, but not at the expense of scapegoating disabled people. And for many reasons, those people who are disabled often have to travel at peak times, too!. 

Darth.


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## RETIRED2017 (21 Jun 2018)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Hi Retired
> 
> 
> Brendan Burgess said:
> ...


This is where you have it all wrong and where common since comes in I know about the 200 billion I know about the unfunded pension As I said above it is people who think stopping the bus pass will sort it who are causing the problem ,
When you get a chance have a look at your posts and others on the USC where you and others were  trying to get it done away with it looked like it was yours and others first time to have to pay it on all of your income you did appear to know  I and all PRSI A1 paid a USC surcharge all of our life and when it was extender to others you were up in arms about it,

When you look at how much extra it brought in you can see how many free loaders there are I think it is time to get off the back of people who payed a very high surcharge all of there working life ,

If everyone paid the same surcharge leveled  on the  PRSI A1 taxpayer and there employer they would not be feeling  hard done by the USC,I have paid my way forget about looking at the bus pass and start looking at why the USC brought in so much extra revinue,


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## noproblem (21 Jun 2018)

I'll be collecting my pension next year and looking forward to it. However, i'll have to agree with the motion that free travel for OAP's at peak time can be done without. I live in the West of Ireland, just 5kms from a good railway station and have had conversations with older people over the past few years as to what they get up to in order to pass the time. One example is, a few of them take the train once a month to Heuston station and have their lunch, a little tipple, in a very nice pub/restaurant in Parkgate street, then they ramble down once again to Heuston and take the train home again. Nice way to spend a few hours and all free apart from the lunch, tipple. Other days it's Galway on the bus, or maybe Sligo or wherever. Good for them but taking the peak times out of it won't hurt too many in my opinion and should be done. So what if they/me tend to vote, we won't all vote against a Goverment that does it. Fair is fair and the pension ain't too bad, more so if you multiply it by 2.


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## RETIRED2017 (21 Jun 2018)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Hi Retired
> 
> We have a €200 billion national debt as our legacy.
> 
> ...


Well you did not seam so happy when you posted about changing the tax relief from 40% to 20% on pensions
The problem which I suspect you know already is some like myself and my employer have paid in a large amount of money in PRSI over 40 years others had to pay very little for the same pension tinkering with the bus pass is not going to solve this

People who were used of paying in very little will see big changes the chickens are on there way home to roost there will be a little wailing and crying like we had with the usc it just will take some longer than others most would be supporters of doing away with the bus pass in rush hour for all the good it is going to do them


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## RETIRED2017 (21 Jun 2018)

noproblem said:


> I'll be collecting my pension next year and looking forward to it. However, i'll have to agree with the motion that free travel for OAP's at peak time can be done without. I live in the West of Ireland, just 5kms from a good railway station and have had conversations with older people over the past few years as to what they get up to in order to pass the time. One example is, a few of them take the train once a month to Heuston station and have their lunch, a little tipple, in a very nice pub/restaurant in Parkgate street, then they ramble down once again to Heuston and take the train home again. Nice way to spend a few hours and all free apart from the lunch, tipple. Other days it's Galway on the bus, or maybe Sligo or wherever. Good for them but taking the peak times out of it won't hurt too many in my opinion and should be done. So what if they/me tend to vote, we won't all vote against a Goverment that does it. Fair is fair and the pension ain't too bad, more so if you multiply it by 2.



I am retired and i meet the type you are on about some paid in a lot others paid in very little good luck to them you will find for the most part the people who did not have to pay in much would be like your self they would not vote against the government if they took away the bus pass in rush hour

 The people who paid in a lot in PRSI in the most part would vote against the Government and the Government  keep looking over there shoulder to see if they are happy ,


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## noproblem (21 Jun 2018)

Hmm, I paid in quite a bit so don't really see where you're going with your assumption. Then again, it's a lot easier for me to live in the west than someone in a city or so we're told. I'd love to see the details  confirming that though.


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## RETIRED2017 (21 Jun 2018)

noproblem said:


> Hmm, I paid in quite a bit so don't really see where you're going with your assumption. Then again, it's a lot easier for me to live in the west than someone in a city or so we're told. I'd love to see the details  confirming that though.


Do you walk the five km to the railway  station ,I suspect there are not many rush hours in your neck of the woods so no problem' voting for something  when it will not affect you ,

I would expect in your neck of the wood people who can no longer drive because of age and cost/health and depend on the goodness of others to help them get to places out of  there walking range sad to see the goodness of others in short supply in some quarters i think it is the penny looking down on the halfpenny syndrome,

You will not have to look very far to see they same people on about the bus pass in rush hour would cut your pension if they could get away with it seeing you paid quite a bit PRSI rather than close loop holes in the system I wonder why,

It is going to be a very nice day so better go enjoy the Sun and the well earned not so  free bus pass when I take all of the prsi i paid into account,


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## JohnJay (22 Jun 2018)

I imagine most people who hold a free travel pass dont use public transport at rush hour unless they really have to. Who would wedge themselves on to an over crowded bus if they could wait an hour and travel in comfort?


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## RETIRED2017 (22 Jun 2018)

JohnJay said:


> I imagine most people who hold a free travel pass dont use public transport at rush hour unless they really have to. Who would wedge themselves on to an over crowded bus if they could wait an hour and travel in comfort?


Common since would tell you that there is something else driving this it is seeing more and more tax legal loopholes being closed and looking around to see who you can blame,


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## RETIRED2017 (22 Jun 2018)

Delboy said:


> The genie is out of the bottle here. No Govt takes anything off of OAP's. So when FF allowed unrestricted travel as a vote buying exercise back in 2006, that was case closed.
> I don't know why someone like Robert Watt would even bring this up as his political masters will not touch it with a barge pole. But calls for him to resign/be fired are over the top nonsense/hype of the worst kind.


I think Robert Watt  is top man in the department responsible for reform i suspect he is going to have to close some more tax legal/PRSI  loopholes to keep the show on the road he is just trying to take the bad taste of what is coming down the line next and looks like it is working a treat,calls for him to resign is just what the doctor ordered so he can move against other lobby groups who had the ear of Government until now saving the bacon of his Political Masters,

The problem with reform in Ireland as we seen with the USC is the hit everyone  to pay for loopholes left in the system like usc on all income you can be sure we will see more smart people blaming bus pass at peak times and not able to see the real reason they are asked to pay more so others pay less for the same service,


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## Bronte (24 Jun 2018)

I very much doubt older people travel at peak times. Like why would you.


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## odyssey06 (24 Jun 2018)

You would think the government for leap usage would have some idea of how rush hour usage there is ... would have been more helpful if they had released that info.


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## RETIRED2017 (24 Jun 2018)

odyssey06 said:


> You would think the government for leap usage would have some idea of how rush hour usage there is ... would have been more helpful if they had released that info.


Question Why are those with free travel allowed to use it during rush hour

Answer because if it was  stopped it would allow the transport Providers to raise additional revenue from people who we as taxpayers already paid for when the need to travel at peak times,

the only good thing is some of the people who would like to see this brought in  are high tax payers who will be paying tax for a service not provided and love the Idea it is called cutting off your nose to spite your face ,

 Quote not stop them from travelling taxpayers pay once and the people needing to travel at peak hour pay again very good idea if you like paying high taxes ,


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## noproblem (24 Jun 2018)

RETIRED2017 said:


> Do you walk the five km to the railway  station ,I suspect there are not many rush hours in your neck of the woods so no problem' voting for something  when it will not affect you ,
> 
> I would expect in your neck of the wood people who can no longer drive because of age and cost/health and depend on the goodness of others to help them get to places out of  there walking range sad to see the goodness of others in short supply in some quarters i think it is the penny looking down on the halfpenny syndrome,
> 
> ...



I told you where I lived, but i've family, friends, close relatives and others who live where rush hour is indeed rush hour (in the Irish sense) and yes they do avail of the free pass, like I said I don't begrudge them but please, don't belittle anyone for not being in a rush hour commute. A little respect goes a long way and begrudgerry will get you nowhere.


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## qwerty5 (25 Jun 2018)

RETIRED2017 said:


> Answer because if it was  stopped it would allow the transport Providers to raise additional revenue from people who we as taxpayers already paid for when the need to travel at peak times,



Is that a bad thing? I don't think any of our transport providers are rolling in money. You make money while you can and that subsidizes the quieter times.

My current provider leaves people behind each morning at their bus stops as demand outstrips capacity. It's a private operator, I don't know why they can't provide more buses .

In fairness I haven't noticed a large amount of older people so it's not filled up by OAPs.


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## odyssey06 (25 Jun 2018)

noproblem said:


> I told you where I lived, but i've family, friends, close relatives and others who live where rush hour is indeed rush hour (in the Irish sense) and yes they do avail of the free pass, like I said I don't begrudge them but please, don't belittle anyone for not being in a rush hour commute. A little respect goes a long way and begrudgerry will get you nowhere.



Where does begrudgery come into it? We're talking about a scarce public resource - road space and public transport - where demand outstrips supply. It seems reasonable to consider if steps can be taken to reduce demand on those rush hour routes where this is the case, and probably many routes serving hospitals could be exempted as during morning rush hour if they are out of town then the commuter flow would be in other direction.


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## Sunny (25 Jun 2018)

There might be an argument for not allowing free travel passes to be used to reserve seats during peak hours but I would be reluctant to say they can't travel on public transport during peak time. Where do we draw the line? Do we stop them travelling where there are large events on because of increased demand? Do we tell them that if they want to get a flight or another train, then they need to make sure they don't arrange one for a certain time because they won't be able to get to the airport/train station? The free travel pass is brilliant for older people and I think the benefits far outweigh the cost. If there are savings to be made, it would be on fake passes, unnecessary companion passes, the complete abuse of the pass based on disability (amazing how many perfectly fit young people who are able to get on a bus with a pass and their 'companion')...Sometimes think that drug addiction is now classed as a disability...

There were over 1300 passes confiscated last year. Would think it was safe to assume that this is only a small percentage of the problem...


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## Purple (25 Jun 2018)

Sunny said:


> The free travel pass is brilliant for older people and I think the benefits far outweigh the cost. If there are savings to be made, it would be on fake passes, unnecessary companion passes, the complete abuse of the pass based on disability (amazing how many perfectly fit young people who are able to get on a bus with a pass and their 'companion')...Sometimes think that drug addiction is now classed as a disability


My parents are well off and they get free travel. Occasionally my mother drives my father down to the LUAS in her Merc so that he can go into town and eat fine food and drink expensive wine with his equally or more well off friends. If they are both going they get a taxi. Why on earth should they get free travel (or a GP medical card)? Disability includes people with mental health issues, including young people. Is an addict getting to an AA or NA meeting less worthy of support than an older person being given a free pass that they don't need?


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## Purple (25 Jun 2018)

odyssey06 said:


> Where does begrudgery come into it? We're talking about a scarce public resource - road space and public transport - where demand outstrips supply. It seems reasonable to consider if steps can be taken to reduce demand on those rush hour routes where this is the case, and probably many routes serving hospitals could be exempted as during morning rush hour if they are out of town then the commuter flow would be in other direction.


The reason busses are so busy is because of the incompetence and corruption of the generation which is now retired. Not only did they bankrupt the country and then look after themselves at the expense of their children by protecting their pensions through higher taxes on those children but they presided over the disastrous planning that means their children and grandchildren need to commute for hours each day. Then they want to ride for free on the same busses and trains while complaining about young people etc. 
As a generation our pensioners, in general, are the worst generation this country has ever produced and those now in their 20's and 30's are probably the best. They are the generation who have freed us from bigotry, racism and homophobia. They are less corrupt and more tolerant than my generation and mine is less corrupt and more tolerant than the one that came before. 
Pensioners should have a bit more respect for their betters and choose not to further damage their children; take the bus/train later or, even better, pay for their ticket if they can afford to. Their children and grandchildren are already paying their pensions (in the knowledge that they'll never enjoy the same sort of pensions) is that not enough?


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## T McGibney (25 Jun 2018)

One of the richest men in my own county, a large factory owner, often parks his Rolls Royce near my office and heads off to Dublin on the free bus.  I wish I was exaggerating.


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## Sunny (25 Jun 2018)

Purple said:


> The reason busses are so busy is because of the incompetence and corruption of the generation which is now retired. Not only did they bankrupt the country and then look after themselves at the expense of their children by protecting their pensions through higher taxes on those children but they presided over the disastrous planning that means their children and grandchildren need to commute for hours each day. Then they want to ride for free on the same busses and trains while complaining about young people etc. As a generation our pensioners, in general, are the worst generation this country has ever produced and those now in their 20's and 30's are probably the best. They are the generation who have freed us from bigotry, racism and homophobia. They are less corrupt and more tolerant than my generation. Pensioners should have a bit more respect for their betters and choose not to further damage their children; take the bus/train later or, even better, pay for their ticket if they can afford to. Their children and grandchildren are already paying their pensions (in the knowledge that they'll never enjoy the same sort of pensions) is that not enough?



That's a bit generalistic isn't it. It is the now retired generation who were mainly beaten, sexually abused and neglected by Church and State hence the tribunals of today. Not kids of today. It is the now retired generation who faced forced emigration before the era of Skype and the internet never to return and lost all contact with families at home. Now people choose to travel. It is the now retired generation who worked through the 1980's with high interest rates and income tax rates of up to 65%. Not every pensioner today is the same as your parents and are enjoying large pensions. My parents certainly aren't. My parents and grandparents also didn't bankrupt this country and I willing to guess that most people here would say the same so I have no idea what yours for a living for you to make statements like that. My parents worked just as hard to provide opportunities for me that I am now doing for my daughter. I have no idea how you can rank generations but I certainly wouldn't belittle challenges that older generations had to overcome to get us this point.


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## Sunny (25 Jun 2018)

T McGibney said:


> One of the richest men in my own county, a large factory owner, often parks his Rolls Royce near my office and heads off to Dublin on the free bus.  I wish I was exaggerating.



Maybe he just believes in saving the environment!!


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## T McGibney (25 Jun 2018)

Sunny said:


> Maybe he just believes in saving the environment!!


Hardly given the size of the Rolls. 

It probably costs a tenner to start it.


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## RETIRED2017 (25 Jun 2018)

T McGibney said:


> One of the richest men in my own county, a large factory owner, often parks his Rolls Royce near my office and heads off to Dublin on the free bus.  I wish I was exaggerating.







Remember he pays 10.75% of total payroll in PRSI  for every 10  people he employed he cut a check for another persons wage and sent it to the government along with paying his own prsi ,

He would want to be using The bus it is costing him more than the Rolls Royce ever will,


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## RETIRED2017 (25 Jun 2018)

T McGibney said:


> Hardly given the size of the Rolls.
> 
> It probably costs a tenner to start it.


I bet The person looking out at him starting it up cost more for the same amount of time


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## RETIRED2017 (25 Jun 2018)

Purple said:


> My parents are well off and they get free travel. Occasionally my mother drives my father down to the LUAS in her Merc so that he can go into town and eat fine food and drink expensive wine with his equally or more well off friends. If they are both going they get a taxi. Why on earth should they get free travel (or a GP medical card)? Disability includes people with mental health issues, including young people. Is an addict getting to an AA or NA meeting less worthy of support than an older person being given a free pass that they don't need?


As far as I am concerned the bus pass is not free  you told me on another post you were paying PRSI for over 30 years so you  know how much was taken in total each week from payroll In my own case it was around 18% ,


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## RETIRED2017 (25 Jun 2018)

Purple I would agree totally it is the people in ther 20's 30's  are probably the best   you will notice it was this generation who came out in support of the people already retired,[/QUOTE]
Leo is in his late thirties


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## Purple (25 Jun 2018)

RETIRED2017 said:


> As far as I am concerned the bus pass is not free  you told me on another post you were paying PRSI for over 30 years so you  know how much was taken in total each week from payroll In my own case it was around 18% ,


My PRSI pays your pension, not mine. At least it pays for part of it. The money raised in PRSI also has to cover disability allowances, welfare and other costs. It comes nowhere near to covering the cost of a pension. Unless you earn an average of €100,000 a year for 40 years then you wouldn't fund the cost of your State pension, even of all of your contributions went towards your pension, which they don't. Therefore lets stop with the whole "I paid PRSI for 40 years; I paid for my pension" lark because for the vast majority of us we didn't and we won't.
The employer's PRSI contribution is for State redundancy payments, not our pensions.


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## PMU (25 Jun 2018)

Is this really an issue? And while there are calls for Mr Watt to step down https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/calls-for-robert-watt-to-be-fired-after-suggesting-ban-on-free-bus-holders-from-public-transport-in-rush-hour-37032725.html for proposing that the free travel pass should not be used during rush hours, surely he should be asked to step down because it is inappropriate for a senior public servant to propose a policy initiative without any evidence to back it up?
Evidence-based policy making is concerned with public policy goals being established based on rigorous examination of evidence, rather than on prejudice, sentiment or cherry-picking.  Mr Watt's proposals appear to be based on prejudice. It is my understanding that the tag-on terminals in buses can be interrogated to determine the use of the travel pass, so it would not be a major or expensive task to determine what proportion of passengers use the travel pass in rush hours; it is a widespread problem; is limited to certain routes, etc. With this evidence, which should not be too difficult to obtain, you can then decide if this is a problem and, if so, what is the best way to alleviate it.

Furthermore MR Watt's proposal assumes that a journey of a retiree is of a lower utility than that of other passengers. This may or may not be so, but similar thinking is not used in determining the allocation of funds between other passenger types in spending on public transport.


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## T McGibney (25 Jun 2018)

PMU said:


> Is this really an issue? And while there are calls for Mr Watt to step down https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/calls-for-robert-watt-to-be-fired-after-suggesting-ban-on-free-bus-holders-from-public-transport-in-rush-hour-37032725.html for proposing that the free travel pass should not be used during rush hours, surely he should be asked to step down because it is inappropriate for a senior public servant to propose a policy initiative without any evidence to back it up?



What a load of codswallop.

The idea that a senior executive in any organisation be fired for suggesting or proposing a cost-saving measure in their employer organisation is utterly laughable and if acted upon would quite rightly precipitate both an astronomical damages claim for unfair dismissal, and a flight of their senior management colleagues from that organisation for fear of the same punishment being meted out to them in the future.



PMU said:


> Furthermore MR Watt's proposal assumes that a journey of a retiree is of a lower utility than that of other passengers. This may or may not be so, but similar thinking is not used in determining the allocation of funds between other passenger types in spending on public transport.


The consumption of a service by a non-paying customer is axiomatically of a lower utility than that of another, paying, customer.


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## Purple (25 Jun 2018)

Asking for someone to sacked for offering an opinion, sounds a bit harsh!
If he had proposed an increase in the OAP would the same people be calling for his head?


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## Purple (25 Jun 2018)

PMU said:


> Furthermore MR Watt's proposal assumes that a journey of a retiree is of a lower utility than that of other passengers. This may or may not be so, but similar thinking is not used in determining the allocation of funds between other passenger types in spending on public transport.


What other passenger types get to travel for free?


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## odyssey06 (25 Jun 2018)

Maybe all public transport should be free - except during rush hour!

I pay my taxes, why should I have to pay for funding public transport AND paying for fares?


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## Purple (25 Jun 2018)

odyssey06 said:


> Maybe all public transport should be free - except during rush hour!
> 
> I pay my taxes, why should I have to pay for funding public transport AND paying for fares?


There's a cost associates with providing public transport, it's not like water!


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## odyssey06 (25 Jun 2018)

Purple said:


> There's a cost associates with providing public transport, it's not like water!



I don't get the bus into town to drink water! Either I'm in there working or I'm having dinner or drinks, the government can't lose between income tax, VAT, excise, commercial rates etc


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## noproblem (25 Jun 2018)

T McGibney said:


> One of the richest men in my own county, a large factory owner, often parks his Rolls Royce near my office and heads off to Dublin on the free bus.  I wish I was exaggerating.



Just wondering if you counted his money or have access to his bank accounts? I'm saying that because there were a fair few of those Rolls Royce people around during the Celtic Tiger years and other times too and know what? They hadn't a brass farthing to rub together, never did either. There's a fair few of them still doing the rounds with most of them if not all in the rush hour areas where they can always find a donkey or two who has moved east along with themselves. Not too many of them down the west these days, we tend to spray the weeds with quare stuff down here now so they're dying out and "they" know better than hang around anyway. We can smell them a mile away every bank holiday when they make their way wesht to (hide) get away from the hectic travveckin they're at .


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## RETIRED2017 (25 Jun 2018)

Purple said:


> My PRSI pays your pension, not mine. At least it pays for part of it. The money raised in PRSI also has to cover disability allowances, welfare and other costs. It comes nowhere near to covering the cost of a pension. Unless you earn an average of €100,000 a year for 40 years then you wouldn't fund the cost of your State pension, even of all of your contributions went towards your pension, which they don't. Therefore lets stop with the whole "I paid PRSI for 40 years; I paid for my pension" lark because for the vast majority of us we didn't
> 
> The employer's PRSI contribution is for State redundancy payments, not our pensions.




Employers contribution  go into the PRSI fund very hard to take posters at face value,


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## noproblem (25 Jun 2018)

Of the €70 million can you tell us what %'age is used at peak times and by exactly who? Is it old age pensioners, disabled people, other free transport recipients or maybe even our very own public representatives who use it and can collect the cost back from the taxpayer as well, that's free transport too? Might be an idea to start with them and see their reaction and how it goes down?  Just saying like.


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## Purple (25 Jun 2018)

RETIRED2017 said:


> Employers contribution go into the PRSI fund


Yea, but it covers far more than your pension.

State Pension (Transition)
State Pension (Contributory)
Widow’s, Widower’s or Surviving Civil Partner’s (Contributory) Pension
Guardian’s Payment (Contributory)
Invalidity Pension
Occupational Injuries Benefits
Treatment Benefit (Dental or Optical)
Jobseeker’s Benefit
Illness Benefit
Carer’s Benefit
Maternity Benefit
Adoptive Benefit
Health and Safety Benefit
The employers contribution is paid by them, not you. Out of the 10.75% they pay the only thing they get, if it's worth anything really, is 0.75% towards our national training fund.


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## RETIRED2017 (25 Jun 2018)

Purple said:


> My parents are well off and they get free travel. Occasionally my mother drives my father down to the LUAS in her Merc so that he can go into town and eat fine food and drink expensive wine with his equally or more well off friends. If they are both going they get a taxi. Why on earth should they get free travel (or a GP medical card)? Disability includes people with mental health issues, including young people. Is an addict getting to an AA or NA meeting less worthy of support than an older person being given a free pass that they don't need?


 Back in 2006 when the extended the free travel total cost  around 2 to 3 million per year it is costing us around one euro per year per person,

We may need to make a collection if  the bank of mom and dad cant afford 50 cent each,


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## RETIRED2017 (25 Jun 2018)

noproblem said:


> Of the €70 million can you tell us what %'age is used at peak times and by exactly who? Is it old age pensioners, disabled people, other free transport recipients or maybe even our very own public representatives who use it and can collect the cost back from the taxpayer as well, that's free transport too? Might be an idea to start with them and see their reaction and how it goes down?  Just saying like.


 Google Brennan lifts Restrictions from free travel passes , you will see in twelve years the cost including all the extra people went up from 58m to 70 million there are a lot more poeple using it including your good self next year hopefully,

 you can see it is not the rush hour free travel that is driving this judging by some posters,


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## PMU (25 Jun 2018)

T McGibney said:


> The idea that a senior executive in any organisation be fired for suggesting or proposing a cost-saving measure in their employer organisation is utterly laughable and if acted upon would quite rightly precipitate both an astronomical damages claim for unfair dismissal, and a flight of their senior management colleagues from that organisation for fear of the same punishment being meted out to them in the future.


 It was a Fine Gael senator that proposed Mr Watt be sacked, so perhaps you should address your concerns to the senator concerned.  I suggested that this was the wrong reason -  that public servants should propose policy changes based on evidence.  And we should expect senior public servants to do so.   What has been proposed is not really an evaluatable proposal; it's just prejudice.


Purple said:


> What other passenger types get to travel for free?


Cyclists.  Cyclists don't pay for their use of road infrastructure.


T McGibney said:


> The consumption of a service by a non-paying customer is axiomatically of a lower utility than that of another, paying, customer.


  Cyclists travel for free, so by your standards their travel is of a lower utility value.  But we spent about 30 million in the last three years on cycling infrastructure and about eight million planned for this year on - by your standards - travel by people whose trips are of a lower utility to society than those trips of paying passengers in public transport and motor vehicles.


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## RETIRED2017 (25 Jun 2018)

noproblem said:


> Just wondering if you counted his money or have access to his bank accounts? I'm saying that because there were a fair few of those Rolls Royce people around during the Celtic Tiger years and other times too and know what? They hadn't a brass farthing to rub together, never did either. There's a fair few of them still doing the rounds with most of them if not all in the rush hour areas where they can always find a donkey or two who has moved east along with themselves. Not too many of them down the west these days, we tend to spray the weeds with quare stuff down here now so they're dying out and "they" know better than hang around anyway. We can smell them a mile away every bank holiday when they make their way wesht to (hide) get away from the hectic travveckin they're at .


I think the Rolls Royce is in Cavan or close to Cavan,

I don't think you will find the donkeys have moved west by the look of things if the come west try getting them into a Cookery school sure that diet of envy doing them any good if you see them on the fern hill leave them there they will be at home among the ferns,


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## noproblem (25 Jun 2018)

One thing i'll guarantee you and that is, no politician or civil servant will bring in any bill taking away or restricting the free travel pass. I'll put my Rolls Royce on that even though I might agree it should be done. As modern and fair minded as some would have you think Varadkar is, he's still stuck in reverse and as yet an unelected Taoiseach. It's always the unexpected that brings down politicians and parties.


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## RETIRED2017 (25 Jun 2018)

Purple said:


> Yea, but it covers far more than your pension.
> 
> State Pension (Transition)
> State Pension (Contributory)
> ...



 What did you say employers contribution was used for in post 46


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## Purple (26 Jun 2018)

RETIRED2017 said:


> What did you say employers contribution was used for in post 46


My mistake. For the 10.5% tax they paid employers used to get 50% back on redundancy payments they made. I think it was reduced to 25% then Joan Burton got rid of that. Now they get nothing; they pay into an insurance fund but get nothing back. Then again it's not pay related either as the benefits you get aren't related to the amount of insurance you pay. 
Since State employees can't lose their jobs who would pay for their redundancy is moot.


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## Leo (26 Jun 2018)

PMU said:


> Cyclists don't pay for their use of road infrastructure.



Non-national road infrastructure is funded by the Local Government fund, the only cyclists not contributing to that are those who pay no motor tax on other vehicles they own, pay no property tax, and make no contribution towards the Exchequer (source of ~16% of Local Government fund)


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## T McGibney (26 Jun 2018)

PMU said:


> It was a Fine Gael senator that proposed Mr Watt be sacked, so perhaps you should address your concerns to the senator concerned.



No. It was your comment here to which I responded.



PMU said:


> Cyclists travel for free, so by your standards their travel is of a lower utility value.  But we spent about 30 million in the last three years on cycling infrastructure and about eight million planned for this year on - by your standards - travel by people whose trips are of a lower utility to society than those trips of paying passengers in public transport and motor vehicles.



What are you on about? Neither cyclists nor motor vehicle users travel for free on public transport.


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## T McGibney (26 Jun 2018)

noproblem said:


> Just wondering if you counted his money or have access to his bank accounts? I'm saying that because there were a fair few of those Rolls Royce people around during the Celtic Tiger years and other times too and know what?



I don't need to. The guy is one of Ireland's richest and most prominent beef barons.  And I've never known anyone else in Cavan, from Sean Quinn in the west to the Kingspan Murtaghs in the east to drive a Rolls.


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## RETIRED2017 (26 Jun 2018)

T McGibney said:


> I don't need to. The guy is one of Ireland's richest and most prominent beef barons.  And I've never known anyone else in Cavan, from Sean Quinn in the west to the Kingspan Murtaghs in the east to drive a Rolls.


Hi I got it out of you I suspected who you were on about The amount of Employers  PRSI he pays would run twenty Aiirforce one jets for the last forty years good to know he is enjoying his free travel seeing he paid for it for fifty years bet you don't resent him sipping fine wine after using his free travel,


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## RETIRED2017 (26 Jun 2018)

noproblem said:


> One thing i'll guarantee you and that is, no politician or civil servant will bring in any bill taking away or restricting the free travel pass. I'll put my Rolls Royce on that even though I might agree it should be done. As modern and fair minded as some would have you think Varadkar is, he's still stuck in reverse and as yet an unelected Taoiseach. It's always the unexpected that brings down politicians and parties.


There is another reason there will be no change
Begrudgers are not great people at going into battle on behalf of other Beggrudgers,


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## KOW (26 Jun 2018)

I remember in the early 90,s driving for Dublin Bus and often been on routes 19, 10, and the 22. Pension aged people  would get on the bus and ask could they use their pass at rush hour as they were attending hospital appointments at the Mater etc. A number of times I was actually shown an appointment card. If an inspector got on the bus it was common practice to give him the heads up.


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## PMU (26 Jun 2018)

T McGibney said:


> No. It was your comment here to which I responded.


I think it reasonable in this day and age to expect public policy to be evidenced-based to help in making the right choices. Otherwise you are just deciding resource allocation and other public policy issues on moral, sentimental, cronyism, cherry-picking, superstitious, prejudicial and other non-objective grounds, none of which are likely to produce efficient outcomes. It is reasonable to expect objective decision making in the public service at all levels.



T McGibney said:


> Neither cyclists nor motor vehicle users travel for free on public transport.


Cyclists are similar to holders of the free travel pass in that they do not pay for use of transport infrastructure at point of use. By your standards that “the consumption of a service by a non-paying customer is axiomatically of a lower utility than that of another, paying, customer” their journeys also have a lower utility value. So why single out one group over another?



Leo said:


> Non-national road infrastructure is funded by the Local Government fund, the only cyclists not contributing to that are those who pay no motor tax on other vehicles they own, pay no property tax, and make no contribution towards the Exchequer (source of ~16% of Local Government fund)


Cyclists do not pay for the use of public infrastructure at point of journey, the same as travel pass holders, but they also impose a cost on other travellers by reducing the available road space, particularly at rush hours.  It's unreasonable to focus on travel pass holders and not on others who also impose externalities.

All commuter journeys are for economic reasons or leisure or some mix thereof. We don't distinguish between the utility value of indicvidual passenger journeys, whether they do or do not pay at point of use. Singling out one class of transport users, ie. travel pass holders, as a problem, is just prejudice. And even if it is a problem there is no reason to believe that banning the use of the travel pass at peak hours is the only or optimum solution.

Resource allocation is a common business problem. If there is a real problem here, and the public sector is unable or unwilling to produce an evidence-based solution, it need just go the the enterprise sector and buy in a solution. You see, there usually is a way to engineer a solution to a problem, but we are not particularly good at it in at the level of public policy in this country.


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## T McGibney (26 Jun 2018)

PMU said:


> I think it reasonable in this day and age to expect public policy to be evidenced-based to help in making the right choices. Otherwise you are just deciding resource allocation and other public policy issues on moral, sentimental, cronyism, cherry-picking, superstitious, prejudicial and other non-objective grounds, none of which are likely to produce efficient outcomes. It is reasonable to expect objective decision making in the public service at all levels.



The guy made a suggestion. Get over it.



PMU said:


> Cyclists are similar to holders of the free travel pass in that they do not pay for use of transport infrastructure at point of use. By your standards that “the consumption of a service by a non-paying customer is axiomatically of a lower utility than that of another, paying, customer” their journeys also have a lower utility value. So why single out one group over another?
> 
> 
> Cyclists do not pay for the use of public infrastructure at point of journey, the same as travel pass holders, but they also impose a cost on other travellers by reducing the available road space, particularly at rush hours.  It's unreasonable to focus on travel pass holders and not on others who also impose externalities.
> ...



All irrelevant. Again, cyclists don't enjoy free travel on public transport.


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## Leo (26 Jun 2018)

PMU said:


> Cyclists do not pay for the use of public infrastructure at point of journey, the same as travel pass holders, but they also impose a cost on other travellers by reducing the available road space, particularly at rush hours. It's unreasonable to focus on travel pass holders and not on others who also impose externalities.



That's a complete misunderstanding of how public infrastructure is funded. Even those who pay for full price tickets getting on the bus aren't paying the full cost of the provision of that service. And more motor tax receipts are spent on the subvention to Irish Water than on local road infrastructure.


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## Purple (26 Jun 2018)

PMU said:


> Cyclists do not pay for the use of public infrastructure at point of journey, the same as travel pass holders, but they also impose a cost on other travellers by reducing the available road space, particularly at rush hours. It's unreasonable to focus on travel pass holders and not on others who also impose externalities.


Does the State give them free bicycles?
The cyclists during rush hour are almost all going to work. If they weren't cycling they would be driving or competing with the freeloading pensioners. Most cyclists also have cars and so pay for a road infrastructure they are not using. Therefore they are saving the rest of us money. 
They reduce overall carbon emissions and if you hit one it does very little damage to your car!


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## Purple (26 Jun 2018)

Leo said:


> That's a complete misunderstanding of how public infrastructure is funded. Even those who pay for full price tickets getting on the bus aren't paying the full cost of the provision of that service. And more motor tax receipts are spent on the subvention to Irish Water than on local road infrastructure.


Yep, but some people just don't like cyclists. They seem to be okay with Irish Rail running services which cost €550 per passenger journey but people who cycle are the target of their ire.


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## Leo (26 Jun 2018)

Purple said:


> ep, but some people just don't like cyclists.



True, and quite often the same people who complain about all the extra traffic on the roads in bad weather when a portion of cyclists decide to use the car instead.


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## RETIRED2017 (26 Jun 2018)

Purple said:


> Does the State give them free bicycles?
> The cyclists during rush hour are almost all going to work. If they weren't cycling they would be driving or competing with the freeloading pensioners. Most cyclists also have cars and so pay for a road infrastructure they are not using. Therefore they are saving the rest of us money.
> They reduce overall carbon emissions and if you hit one it does very little damage to your car!


I happen to have good time for cyclist I still  cycle myself if fact i cycle more now since I retired rather than use the bus from time to time as I already said Having paid PRSI for 47 years I don't need people who Begrudge me using the free pass having paid PRSI A1 for 47 years with only a five month break back around 1984  I am not a freeloader Begrudger's are used while the are useful and no one cares about them and the are not good at looking after them self spend all there life looking to see who they will Begrudge next some even begrudge the people who  cleaned there bum before they were able to clean it them self there life is a vicious circle,
What about the cyclist with a bus pass who for safety reasons do not use it in rush hour or when it is raining ,
What about the person with a bike and a bus pass and can no longer cycle but is still able to use the bus,


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## Eithneangela (26 Jun 2018)

Emulating James Joyce? 

As a Class A PRSI Contributor for 40 years, I was delighted to get my bus pass recently. However living in a village a bit away from the nearest town which has limited public transport, my pass gets no usage, which I would say is representative of quite a number of us oldies. The problem is really only in major urban centers and I think it reflects the balance between the advantages of city living versus the lack of many public services in rural areas.


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## RETIRED2017 (26 Jun 2018)

From a Dub Brendan Behan
Critics are like eunuchs in a harm they know how it's done, They've seen it done every day but they are unable to do it themselves[/QUOTE]

They is no problem if you look at some of the first posts you will see it is about the free pass not stop them from travelling just get them to pay twice,
The would rather see a service that is working well and cost effective stopped Watch the same people getting taxed more over the next few years there is an old saying begrudgers only get to suck the hind tit,


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## RETIRED2017 (26 Jun 2018)

Purple said:


> Ye can take nothin' from the Pensioners; they all vote.


We all have a vote and some know how to use it, when Dublin  people who should know better want to shaft other Dublin people further down the pecking  order like trying to dictate when the can travel on a bus you know yourself the type of TD you will finish up with,

 These TD'S Will decide how much extra tax you will be paying next time around,and the people you are trying to throw off the bus will still be travelling on it get real ,


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## Leper (26 Jun 2018)

Why is it? . . . . . . When we are ahead of the rest of the world regarding some services to our elderly there's always somebody who throws a spanner in the works like this thread. I spent the majority of my life working for the Public Service trying to prevent whatever I could prevent (my own title, self inflicted Clerical Prevention Officer). 

It's no big deal to allow our elderly travel free on the goddamn buses and trains. Why put obstacles in their way?

Exasperated . . . . I flippin' well give up!


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## odyssey06 (26 Jun 2018)

Leper said:


> Why is it? . . . . . . When we are ahead of the rest of the world regarding some services to our elderly there's always somebody who throws a spanner in the works like this thread. I spent the majority of my life working for the Public Service trying to prevent whatever I could prevent (my own title, self inflicted Clerical Prevention Officer).
> 
> It's no big deal to allow our elderly travel free on the goddamn buses and trains. Why put obstacles in their way?
> 
> Exasperated . . . . I flippin' well give up!



Not as exasperated as the people sweating on packed DARTs and buses in summer, or left standing in the rain at the bus stop as a full bus flies by in winter.

The real obstacle is that there aren't enough buses and trains and trams to meet peak rush hour demand. 

It's like rolling out free GP care to the under 6s without taking steps to have more GPs to support it.

Maybe other countries don't over promise and actually deliver the services to meet the demand?


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## Gordon Gekko (26 Jun 2018)

With the caveat that I only use public transport if I’m heading out after work, I don’t think I’ve ever seen an OAP at rush hour; I suspect that this is a non-issue. Why on earth would people who can generally choose what time to travel at choose the worst possible time to travel at?


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## RETIRED2017 (27 Jun 2018)

Gordon Gekko said:


> With the caveat that I only use public transport if I’m heading out after work, I don’t think I’ve ever seen an OAP at rush hour; I suspect that this is a non-issue. Why on earth would people who can generally choose what time to travel at choose the worst possible time to travel at?



why on earth would people who are in favor of the 40% tax break costing around one billion be trying to do away with it, The free pass is the thin end of the wedge

Some who depended on others to clean there bum when they were not able to resent them using the free pass

A rush hour bus /train could be a train or bus service travelling up from the commuter belt it may  only be half full  it is possible you could get people with a free pass travelling on it there may not be another bus or train for another few hour's and the need to get to Dublin for an appointment these are the only people you would be stopping travelling or having to pay again to travel on  a half full bus  it must be very easy to pass exam's year's ago

tax payers have already paid for them travelling ,


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## Purple (27 Jun 2018)

RETIRED2017 said:


> as I already said Having paid PRSI for 47 years I don't need people who Begrudge me using the free pass having paid PRSI A1 for 47 years with only a five month break back around 1984 I am not a freeloader


I've already pointed out to you that you paid PRSI for those who were retired at the time, not to fund your retirement. I've also pointed out that your contributions came nowhere near covering the cost of your pension.
I have no problem with the State giving handouts to people who cannot provide for themselves. I do have a problem with people regarding those handouts as a right rather than a privilege and I do have a problem with the State giving welfare to people who don't need it. That includes, but is not limited to, medical cards for all under 6's and over 70's, free third level education and children's allowance.  If you can provide those things for yourself (or your children in the case of education) then the State should not be providing it for you. They should be keeping that money and spending more on those who really need it. 
The sense of entitlement from some pensioners in this thread is staggering.


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## Purple (27 Jun 2018)

Eithneangela said:


> The problem is really only in major urban centers and I think it reflects the balance between the advantages of city living versus the lack of many public services in rural areas.


It also reflects the difference in price of housing between rural and urban areas. As things stand the spend per person on public services in rural areas is far higher than the spend per person in urban areas. That is reflected, in part, by the much lower cost of living in rural areas since you are being subsidised by your urban friends and relatives.


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## Grizzly (27 Jun 2018)

I picked up my free travel pass last February. I have only used it a few times. I have a car and my wife has a car. I would only use it where I have to travel in to the city centre where the cost of parking is very high.
I would not use it at rush hour because I have no reason to. I may use it on the train for a day trip to somewhere this summer but that's about it.
I am an early riser but since I am retired I like to have an early breakfast followed by another mini one an hour or so later, then I start moving at about 10.a.m.


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## Deiseblue (27 Jun 2018)

In the unlikely event of remaining , as Bob Dylan would have it , forever young I would hope to live long enough to pick up the free travel pass in a couple of years & be thankful to a Country that confers such a boon on pensioners .
I regularly travel at peak times despite the fact that I haven’t worked in over ten years having availed of early retirement as I have many social engagements & I  would hope to continue to travel as heretofore on the free pass as & when I want & the fact that this may discommode other commuters really doesn’t bother me - we all have our own lives to live .


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## Purple (27 Jun 2018)

Grizzly said:


> I am an early riser but since I am retired I like to have an early breakfast followed by another mini one an hour or so later, then I start moving at about 10.a.m.


Are you, by any chance, a Hobbit?


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## Purple (27 Jun 2018)

Deiseblue said:


> In the unlikely event of remaining , as Bob Dylan would have it , forever young I would hope to live long enough to pick up the free travel pass in a couple of years & be thankful to a Country that confers such a boon on pensioners .


I have a problem with the State giving welfare and handouts to those who don't need it while those that really do need help could do with more. To each according to their needs and all that. In the sccheme of things free travel is a drop in the ocean but it is indicative of the culture of entitlement in this country from all sectors of society.


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## Niall56 (27 Jun 2018)

Robert Watt does get the bus to work from the north side to work and I was once on a full bus that drove past his stop, but I don't recall there being any pensioners on the bus or any morning rush hour bus to be honest.

When I go home to Munster, it alarming at how many young able-bodied people seem to have bus passes, presumably on disability grounds. I don't mean to stereotype but I sometimes get a bus that travels through a council estate where there is not a single paying passenger.


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## RETIRED2017 (27 Jun 2018)

Purple said:


> I've already pointed out to you that you paid PRSI for those who were retired at the time, not to fund your retirement. I've also pointed out that your contributions came nowhere near covering the cost of your pension.
> I have no problem with the State giving handouts to people who cannot provide for themselves. I do have a problem with people regarding those handouts as a right rather than a privilege and I do have a problem with the State giving welfare to people who don't need it. That includes, but is not limited to, medical cards for all under 6's and over 70's, free third level education and children's allowance.  If you can provide those things for yourself (or your children in the case of education) then the State should not be providing it for you. They should be keeping that money and spending more on those who really need it.
> The sense of entitlement from some pensioners in this thread is staggering.


Around 18.5 % in total was taken in PRSI from payroll along with very high taxes lots would have finished up being spent on your good self now it is my turn ,Eaten bread is soon forgotten,
I am glad it was spent on you don't feel so bad about paying back a little,


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## Purple (27 Jun 2018)

RETIRED2017 said:


> Around 18.5 % in total was taken in PRSI from payroll along with very high taxes lots would have finished up being spent on your good self now it is my turn ,Eaten bread is soon forgotten,
> I am glad it was spent on you don't feel so bad about paying back a little,


I'm sure that some of it was spent on me but if so then it wasn't spent on your pension and my taxes in turn are being spent on the next generation.
Given that I've been working full time since I was 17 and part time (paying PRSI and PAYE) since I was 14 and I've never claimed welfare or any other benefit I don't think you spent too much on me.
.
The employers PRSI is a tax on the employer. Employees PRSI is a tax on the employee. The hint is in the name. If you think about it you'll see it.


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## Monbretia (27 Jun 2018)

Niall, a lot of those able bodied could have it because they are getting carers allowance for someone as well as the possibility that they are on a disability payment themselves.  The carer is entitled to a free travel pass and can use it at any stage without travelling with the person being cared for.  

To be honest I think that one should be curtailed a bit to where the pass is actually only for use in connection with the cared for person but I suppose that's another one that is impossible to implement.

My father is 87 and has never once availed of free travel as living in the country with an area that has one bus service per week it is of no use to him really.   He can no longer drive but it still is of no use if he wanted to get to doctors or hospital appointments.


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## Purple (27 Jun 2018)

Monbretia said:


> The carer is entitled to a free travel pass and can use it at any stage without travelling with the person being cared for.


 That's crazy. 



Monbretia said:


> To be honest I think that one should be curtailed a bit to where the pass is actually only for use in connection with the cared for person but I suppose that's another one that is impossible to implement.


 Absolutely.


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## dereko1969 (27 Jun 2018)

Only about 50% of those with free travel passes are OAPs, so all this talk about OAPs is missing the point that we now have over 900,000 free travel pass holders. The money being paid out to the transport companies has stayed the same as it was when 500,000 people had free travel passes.
So when people talk about not seeing OAP at rush-hour that's not the issue it's all the other holders travelling at that time that are increasing demand on an under-funded service.


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## Deiseblue (27 Jun 2018)

Monbretia , am I right in thinking that only those carers for certain categories can avail of free travel when traveling alone ?
Those in receipt of elther short or long term constant attendance allowance as a result of industrial related injuries can facilitate free travel for their carers but the majority of carers cannot access solo free travel


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## noproblem (27 Jun 2018)

On reading the above I see there's a good lot of elderly people who are not able to avail of free travel because of the place they're living and other reasons. I feel it's time they were now given a certain amount of cash each month to make up for this. Standards need to be maintained and why should the people with big salaries and other workers be the only ones able to enjoy themselves? It's quite obvious from reading this forum that they will never get old or any other silly human related problems. OAP's should rise up and fight this. Oh, I forgot they can't rise up, bone and arthritic problems, etc. I propose the unemployed rise up and fight for those that cannot.


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## RETIRED2017 (27 Jun 2018)

noproblem said:


> On reading the above I see there's a good lot of elderly people who are not





noproblem said:


> On reading the above I see there's a good lot of elderly people who are not able to avail of free travel because of the place they're living and other reasons. I feel it's time they were now given a certain amount of cash each month to make up for this. Standards need to be maintained and why should the people with big salaries and other workers be the only ones able to enjoy themselves? It's quite obvious from reading this forum that they will never get old or any other silly human related problems. OAP's should rise up and fight this. Oh, I forgot they can't rise up, bone and arthritic problems, etc. I propose the unemployed rise up and fight for those that cannot.


 For a Minute I thought you were going to say from reading the above there are some  who would Qualify they just need to apply  ,


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## Monbretia (27 Jun 2018)

Deiseblue said:


> Monbretia , am I right in thinking that only those carers for certain categories can avail of free travel when traveling alone ?
> Those in receipt of elther short or long term constant attendance allowance as a result of industrial related injuries can facilitate free travel for their carers but the majority of carers cannot access solo free travel



I couldn't swear to it that all on carer's allowance are entitled to it but that was my understanding as I actually queried the trainer on it during a training course as it sounded like madness to me!   

This from welfare also makes it look like getting carers allowance is one of the qualifying criteria -

*3.2 ELIGIBILITY FOR FREE TRAVEL?*
An applicant will qualify for Free Travel, if s/he is legally resident and living permanently in the State (i.e. on an all-year-round basis) and is aged 66 or over and has completed the SAFE registration process. If the applicant is under age 66, in addition to *permanently*residing in the State and is registered for the Public Services Card, s/he must satisfy *any* of the conditions below;


be a recipient of one of the following payments;
Invalidity Pension
Blind Person's Pension
Disability Allowance (DA)
Carer's Allowance (you may get a single status card only, if you are aged under 66)


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## Purple (27 Jun 2018)

noproblem said:


> On reading the above I see there's a good lot of elderly people who are not able to avail of free travel because of the place they're living and other reasons. I feel it's time they were now given a certain amount of cash each month to make up for this. Standards need to be maintained and why should the people with big salaries and other workers be the only ones able to enjoy themselves? It's quite obvious from reading this forum that they will never get old or any other silly human related problems. OAP's should rise up and fight this. Oh, I forgot they can't rise up, bone and arthritic problems, etc. I propose the unemployed rise up and fight for those that cannot.


You're dead right, sure you lot bankrupted the country when your generation ran it and when the wheels fell off the first thing you did was throw your kids in front of the bus to ensure that you didn't get hit so why not go all out and take even more?


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## RETIRED2017 (27 Jun 2018)

That good Dub Shane Ross is set to provide more buses and new services to bring them home from the pub no point in providing buses unless you give them more money so spend on drink,


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## noproblem (27 Jun 2018)

Purple said:


> You're dead right, sure you lot bankrupted the country when your generation ran it and when the wheels fell off the first thing you did was throw your kids in front of the bus to ensure that you didn't get hit so why not go all out and take even more?



We'll hopefully get a good long run at spending your lots entitled inheritances as well. Maybe that's your big problem, it sure isn't that you're worried about taking care of them. Also, never forget that all the money the country lost with the Celtic Tiger aftermath wasn't really lost at all. It's alive and well in closely knitted mattresses up and down the country. Believe me, any amount of it is out there. The only ones who lost were the very same ones who would do the exact same things again and i've absolutely no sympathy whatsoever for them and there's not an awful lot of them pensioners.


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## RETIRED2017 (28 Jun 2018)

The people who lost the most and will never ever see it back are the people who held bank shares some are going around with a chip on there shoulder still.  I know some they feel bad when the see people who used to have less than them now having more or think they have more,

There are lots of other groups doing very well plenty of money around ,

Then there are people who entered the workforce in the last 10 years on away lower income and doing a better job than the people of purple vintage who are overpaid since the Celtic tiger.  some feel trapped because the will not be getting much of a wage increase until the people who started in the last 10 years catch up,

then you have the people from the Celtic tiger years who know other people from the same era getting large wage increases and know they will not be getting the same and it is eating then up ,

Then you have people like myself retired who had very little starting out in life. my parents before me would have worked if they could find work until they got the old age pension if the lived long enough to receive  and enjoy it.  possibly the first time in there life they felt they had money they made the best of what they had and enjoyed there final years.  grateful  for the old age pension just like myself others would like to take it away thinking it will make then feel better sad people I say and getting sadder by the day,


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## Purple (28 Jun 2018)

RETIRED2017 said:


> The people who lost the most and will never ever see it back are the people who held bank shares some are going around with a chip on there shoulder still. I know some they feel bad when the see people who used to have less than them now having more or think they have more


 If you could afford to have a large amount of bank shares then you were hardly poor and are hardly poor now. If you were holding most of your wealth in them close to your retirement then you were an idiot. Either way I've little sympathy for such people. 



RETIRED2017 said:


> Then there are people who entered the workforce in the last 10 years on away lower income and doing a better job than the people of purple vintage who are overpaid since the Celtic tiger. some feel trapped because the will not be getting much of a wage increase until the people who started in the last 10 years catch up,


 Absolutely; my generation were part of the problem. They voted you guys into power again and again. 



RETIRED2017 said:


> then you have the people from the Celtic tiger years who know other people from the same era getting large wage increases and know they will not be getting the same and it is eating then up ,


 That was always the case and always will be. 



RETIRED2017 said:


> Then you have people like myself retired who had very little starting out in life. my parents before me would have worked if they could find work until they got the old age pension if the lived long enough to receive and enjoy it. possibly the first time in there life they felt they had money they made the best of what they had and enjoyed there final years. grateful for the old age pension just like myself


 Your parents sound like the people who should be getting the help and support from the State. My problem is the State giving money to people who don't need it. In essence they take it and then give it back, minus there administration charge. What's the point in that?



RETIRED2017 said:


> others would like to take it away thinking it will make then feel better sad people I say and getting sadder by the day,


 If that was their motivation then yes, absolutely. I just want to see the State's scarce resources given to people who need the help most. The fact that pensions are taxable is good but why is children's allowance not taxable? I've a 6 figure income and so does my ex-wife and the State gives us €6,720 tax free a year in welfare payments. We'd have to earn over €14'000 a year to increase our net income by that much. That's just nuts. There should be no universal benefits. Free travel and free GP care for people who need it. Children's allowance for people who need it. Free third level for those who need it (like there always was) and use to money saved to give more to those at the bottom. 

I begrudge entitles rich people who think they are special simply because they have been here longer. We have done a dreadful job of running this country for decades. Your generation more so. Those in their 20's and 30's will never enjoy the pension and perks that you do. I might but it's unlikely. We are still mortgaging the next generation's future to subsidise ourselves now. We are getting them to pay for our mess. I think that's deplorable. I begrudge that and I begrudge the attitude that sees things like free travel as an entitlement that has been earned. There is a collective responsibility on all of us to stop screwing up out children's future.


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## IdesofMarch (28 Jun 2018)

The rise of the right wing!


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## inflation (28 Jun 2018)

IdesofMarch said:


> The rise of the right wing!



So taking universal benefits off the rich in order to redistribute them to the poorer in society is now right wing, interesting.


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## Monbretia (28 Jun 2018)

Purple said:


> If you could afford to have a large amount of bank shares then you were hardly poor and are hardly poor now.


 
Bit harsh!  The bulk of my savings were in bank shares as that's how bonuses in general were paid and I bought some with my SSIA, I was never rich by any stretch of the imagination but am considerably poorer now!   I know lots of bank staff in similar situations, the nest egg is gone.   

I was not near retirement when it happened but to be honest even if I were I don't think it would have occurred to me to change them.  The only shares I have ever owned were bank shares obviously because of my employment so not exactly a seasoned investor, I was conservative as it happened and there is no denying they were considered 'safe'.


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## fistophobia (29 Jun 2018)

In a true meritocracy there should be no rewards for failure. For that is what is being rewarded.
We live in a socialist utopia.


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## RETIRED2017 (29 Jun 2018)

Purple Said you could afford to have a large amount of bank shares then you were hardly poor and are hardly poor now. If you were holding most of your wealth in them close to your retirement then you were an idiot. Either way I've little sympathy for such people.

 I never bothered with bank shares just for the record I was talking about people I know,
I amassed as big as pension pot as possible while enjoying life to the full the job now is to enjoy spending it within my means the free pass which I paid for with PRSI under PAYE is part of that plan


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## RETIRED2017 (29 Jun 2018)

( Purple said  My problem is the State giving money to people who don't need it. In essence they take it and then give it back, minus there administration charge. What's the point in that )
The point is they have already taken it  now the are giving it back minus the administration charge they also need to retake it back from they people who the spent it on some  want to pocket it but that is not how it is going to work whether you like it or not,


( Purple Said Free third level for those who need it (like there always was) and use to money saved to give more to those at the bottom.)
It was/is full of loop holes  not open to  PAYE Workers  Not A Word From Robert Watt reform is his job ,

 (Purple said I begrudge entitles rich people who think they are special simply because they have been here longer. We have done a dreadful job of running this country for decades. Your generation more so. )
Not correct My generation Of PAYE Workers Paid most of the tax and levies away higher than now and got the least back until the retire  I suspect you don't want to know   My travel Pass and pension is well paid for up front The Message to Mr Watt  it's  now payback time ,Mr Watt look at the mess you and other made trying to reform how we pay for water or should I say don't pay ,

Now that is something for him to think about if the bus is full and he is Waiting for the next bus,


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## Odea (29 Jun 2018)

RETIRED2017.  I am enjoying reading your posts but it is really difficult to follow your points.  Can you use a few more commas and full stops and spacing?  Thanks


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## Purple (29 Jun 2018)

Odea said:


> RETIRED2017.  I am enjoying reading your posts but it is really difficult to follow your points.  Can you use a few more commas and full stops and spacing?  Thanks


I'm thinking of reading Ulysses to get into the swing of things. Failing that I might email a link to this thread to Senator Norris and ask him to explain it to me.


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## Purple (29 Jun 2018)

RETIRED2017 said:


> ( Purple said  My problem is the State giving money to people who don't need it. In essence they take it and then give it back, minus there administration charge. What's the point in that )
> The point is they have already taken it  now the are giving it back minus the administration charge they also need to retake it back from they people who the spent it on some  want to pocket it but that is not how it is going to work whether you like it or not,
> 
> 
> ...



It doesn't matter how many times you say otherwise, the fact remains that pensions and welfare are paid for out of current taxation so you, just like me, contributed nothing to your State pension. Even if there was a fund unless you were a single earner with no children and earned an average of €100,000 a year for 40 years and everything you paid in went into your pension fund you still didn't pay for your State pension. 
The reality is that people entering the workforce will work longer that you and get far less for the PRSI they pay.
They will pay your your pension but won't get the same in return when they retire because they current structure is unsustainable, which is because we are living longer than the current system allows for. It that fair?  

There's no getting around that fact that there is a €440 billion shortfall in the State pension pot (or the pot that would be there if it wasn't funded from current expenditure). If you'd paid for your own pension would that be there? 

And while you live off them you want to take their seat on the bus as well!


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## Black Sheep (30 Jun 2018)

I still fail to see the saving in an OAP travelling on a bus at 10am instead of 8am.
Wasn't that Robert Watts job, to see where savings could be made?


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## llgon (1 Jul 2018)

Black Sheep said:


> I still fail to see the saving in an OAP travelling on a bus at 10am instead of 8am.



Buses 7.30-9am full, with say 10% OAPs travelling with pass, some needing to travel at this time, others not.  Leaving other passengers stranded at bus stops.  

10am buses less than half full.  

Need to increase earlier services by 5-10% to accommodate all passengers, these buses of no use for remainder of day.

Seems to be simple enough.


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## Sophrosyne (1 Jul 2018)

That may or may not be the case, but who knows? No current published statistics to back up Robert Watts's statement.


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## llgon (1 Jul 2018)

Black Sheep couldn't see how savings could be made. While the figures I used are purely speculative the purpose of my post was to show how. I think that case is clear.

AFAIK Robert Watt just called for a discussion on the issue, what statement did he make that needs statistics to back up?


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## Black Sheep (1 Jul 2018)

Lots of OAP's on our route are travelling to 8 and 9am hospital appointments. Perhaps the hospitals need to have a look at their systems.


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## Sophrosyne (1 Jul 2018)

llgon said:


> Black Sheep couldn't see how savings could be made. While the figures I used are purely speculative the purpose of my post was to show how. I think that case is clear.
> 
> AFAIK Robert Watt just called for a discussion on the issue, what statement did he make that needs statistics to back up?


He called for a discussion based on _one_ pensioner he knew who used his bus pass during the morning rush hour to meet his friends.
That is hardly enough to form the basis of a discussion.
For a meaningful discussion on transport usage and associated costs, he needs to bring facts & figures to the table, not just about free travel passes but anything else under his purview.


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## llgon (1 Jul 2018)

Sophrosyne said:


> No current published statistics to back up Robert Watts's statement.



So the statement you referred to is about the one pensioner? What statistics do you want about Paddy?


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## Protocol (1 Jul 2018)

A contribution from Cathal Guiomard, DCU

http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.ph...ght-for-them-to-keep-all-day-free-bus-passes/


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## Sophrosyne (1 Jul 2018)

llgon said:


> So the statement you referred to is about the one pensioner? What statistics do you want about Paddy?



Of course I do not want stastistics about Paddy!

A business discussion about _anything _has to be based on facts and stastical evidence. If he had said that he had statistical proof of excessive use of bus passes during rush hours that would be one thing. But he didn't.

I'm not so much concerned about bus pass usage, but rather the expectation that people would take time out of busy schedules to attend discussions based on nothing more than anecdotes.


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## llgon (1 Jul 2018)

I think it's obvious that there's a bit more to it than an anecdote.



Sophrosyne said:


> No current published statistics to back up Robert Watts's statement.



Your post is an example of the illogical reaction his comments generated given that you have clarified since that all his 'statement' was was a call for a discussion along with an anecdote.


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