# Was stopped at garda check point without having insurance



## Khayam (15 Dec 2019)

I got stopped at checkpoint 14-12-19 at 11:45pm in  i was not aware of my insurance is expired as it was my second car  but on my first car am comprehensively insured.garda told me if i failed to present insurance cert the time he stop me i will get the court summon. 
Just wondering if i get my car insured by next working day and present to local garda station will i still get summon.
Is there any loop hole for this situation


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## SparkRite (15 Dec 2019)

Who is the registered owner of the car you were stopped in?


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## gianni (15 Dec 2019)

Khayam said:


> I got stopped at checkpoint 14-12-19 at 11:45pm in  i was not aware of my insurance is expired as it was my second car  but on my first car am comprehensively insured.garda told me if i failed to present insurance cert the time he stop me i will get the court summon.
> Just wondering if i get my car insured by next working day and present to local garda station will i still get summon.
> Is there any loop hole for this situation



I wouldn't have thought insuring it after the fact will suffice.


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## llgon (15 Dec 2019)

I would recommend you remove time and date from your post as this could identify you. I don't think there's any loophole for your situation.


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## mathepac (15 Dec 2019)

You were not insured in that car when you were stopped. You need a solicitor, judges don't take kindly to uninsured drivers even if it was a mistake.


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## DirectDevil (16 Dec 2019)

OP has not clarified SparkRite's question.
If OP does not own the car he was driving he might be insured in two ways ;
1. The car being driven might have open driving insurance and or
2. The insurance on OP's first car may have a driving other cars extension [DOC].

A DOC extension will not insure you to drive another vehicle if you are the owner of that other vehicle.

To confirm what others have said, it is an offence not to have current motor insurance whilst driving in a public place.
Not being aware that the insurance had expired would not provide a defence.


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## Buddyboy (16 Dec 2019)

Also, on DirectDevil's point 2 above, some, possibly all, "driving other car" extensions have the wording "you are insured (3rd) party to drive another vehicle, provided the vehicle is insured."
So, as the vehicle wasn't insured, you may not be covered even if you have a DOC extension on your own policy.


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## DirectDevil (16 Dec 2019)

Buddyboy said:


> Also, on DirectDevil's point 2 above, some, possibly all, "driving other car" extensions have the wording "you are insured (3rd) party to drive another vehicle, provided the vehicle is insured."
> So, as the vehicle wasn't insured, you may not be covered even if you have a DOC extension on your own policy.



Very interesting.

Just to clarify - the vehicle being driven and for which you seek indemnity under a DOC extension must itself have current motor insurance.


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## SparkRite (16 Dec 2019)

DirectDevil said:


> Very interesting.
> 
> Just to clarify - the vehicle being driven and for which you seek indemnity under a DOC extension must itself have current motor insurance.


I have heard of this, but only anecdotally. A few years ago a mate got stopped driving his sisters car and had to produce proof of insurance. He did showing the DOC indemnity,cops never asked or looked for whether there was any other cover on the car. 
In all my years driving and have changed insurers many times, always had DOC, have never seen that condition written anywhere within any of my policies. 
I have only ever heard of it, but no doubt some policies will have it written within its t&c's. It's just mine haven't.


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## Buddyboy (16 Dec 2019)

Right, did a bit of googling ('cause I'm like that ).
Both Liberty and Aviva specifically state that the other car has to have a separate insurance policy in force. To be fair, most other insurers didn't refer to it.  But still, it could be buried in their documentation.






						Insured to Drive Other Vehicles? - Liberty Insurance Ireland
					

Visit the Liberty Insurance help centre to find the answers to your customer care needs. Click here to find out if you're insured to drive other vehicles.




					www.libertyinsurance.ie
				



"there is a current insurance policy in place in another person’s name that covers the other car"





__





						Car Insurance Benefits
					

With Aviva Car Insurance, you get a number of extra benefits, such as breakdown rescue cover, as standard. Get a Car Insurance quote online today.




					www.aviva.ie
				



"a current certificate of insurance has been issued and remains in force on the Private car being driven under the Driving other cars cover provided;"

In any event, I think the point is moot, as, based on the OPs post, I read it that they have two cars ("my second car"), which wasn't insured. Therefore as he owned the car,  ("if I get _my car _insured by the next working day") DOC's doesn't apply.

My advice would be to get insurance, present it to the guard and explain the case.  And be prepared to hire a solicitor.


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## SparkRite (16 Dec 2019)

That is what I found as well. The vast majority of them do not stipulate such conditions. 

Moot point or not, it could transpire that he 'sold' the car the day before.


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## mathepac (16 Dec 2019)

IME, DOC cover alway stipulates that the other car is insured, sometimes comprehensively, "provided it is not owned by or rented to the insured".

I don't think my comprehensive insurance for my Toyota Avensis will cover me to drive a €400k Bentley, even 3rd party!


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## Ravima (16 Dec 2019)

you need to read the DOC wording on your policy as not all are the same and there are exceptions in many cases. In any event, you cannot avail of the DOC if you own the car you are driving. 

Some exclude cars that as others have said are not insured elsewhere. This condition is to ensure that the car being driven is somewhat roadworthy and not a heap of scrap pulled from a ditch for the occasion. Others exclude cars owned by spouses and partners. Some cover you comprehensively whilst using DOC, whereas most are TP only. 

Re maththepac, if you have DOC on your Avensis Policy, then you can drive that Bentley!


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## SparkRite (16 Dec 2019)

Ravima said:


> This condition is to ensure that the car being driven is somewhat roadworthy and not a heap of scrap pulled from a ditch for the occasion.



This is not correct, "a heap of scrap pulled from the ditch" as you put it may well have insurance. 



Ravima said:


> Re maththepac, if you have DOC on your Avensis Policy, then you can drive that Bentley!



While as I said before I personally have never had a policy stating that a car being driven under DOC must have its own insurance I have had some policies with engine size restrictions, mostly 2.5L but one, if I remember correctly as low as 2.0L.
So really no blanket statements can be made.


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## Ravima (16 Dec 2019)

lets agree to disagree.


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## Palerider (16 Dec 2019)

DirectDevil said:


> OP has not clarified SparkRite's question.
> If OP does not own the car he was driving he might be insured in two ways ;
> 1. The car being driven might have open driving insurance and or
> 2. The insurance on OP's first car may have a driving other cars extension [DOC].
> ...



Op, This sums up your position very well.

As for the driving other cars extension, on my policy I can drive any other cars third party only, an extension of my own policy once the other car is insured and once my car is not being used at the same time.

My adult kids (under 26( have driving other cars on the same basis as above but limited to less than 2.0 liter engine size.

Check your policy wording is the message.


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## LS400 (17 Dec 2019)

Khayam said:


> i was not aware of my insurance is expired as it was my second car



His/Her car, his insurance, No defense. Person was not insured at the time he was stopped. There will be a summons. Getting Insurance after will not alter this.

On open driving, you cannot drive a Bentley or anything like it. There is Engine size and value restrictions.


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## Ravima (17 Dec 2019)

_On open driving, you cannot drive a Bentley or anything like it. There is Engine size and value restrictions._

and this is where we get confused. OPEN DRIVING means that persons within certain age brackets, with full licences and with Policyholder's permission can driver POLICYHOLDER'S car. 

Driving Other Cars (DOC) is where the POLICYHOLDER can drive any car not belonging to him, subject to policy terms as previously mentioned.

Too many people confuse OPEN DRIVING and DOC


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## mathepac (17 Dec 2019)

Ravima said:


> and this is where we get confused. OPEN DRIVING means that persons within certain age brackets, with full licences and with Policyholder's permission can driver POLICYHOLDER'S car.


on the POLICYHOLDER'S insurance.



Ravima said:


> Driving Other Cars (DOC) is where the POLICYHOLDER can drive any car not belonging to him, subject to policy terms as previously mentioned.


and is covered by the POLICYHOLDER'S insurance.


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## Leo (18 Dec 2019)

mathepac said:


> on the POLICYHOLDER'S insurance.



So in this case the policy holder is the car owner, not the driver. Open Driving is an alternative to having to have named drivers on your policy to enable then drive your car. No requirement for the driver to have a policy in their name. This can't apply in the OP's case. 



mathepac said:


> and is covered by the POLICYHOLDER'S insurance.



This is Driving Other Cars, and is the situation being discussed above. The policy in effect is that of the driver, not the owner. Coverage for Driving Other Cars is usually restricted to 3rd party cover, but some like Axa will offer limited comprehensive cover with a cap of €50k for damage to the car. Restrictions on the car itself usually state it must be a passenger car not owned or leased to the driver (likely rules this out for the OP) or not owned by or in the custody of the motor trade. Some insurers will insist that the car must also be insured by the vehicle owner. Some will restrict cover to 25-70 year olds, some restrict engine size for younger drivers. There are no restrictions on make, model or value of the car.


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## Drakon (18 Dec 2019)

Every car needs it’s own insurance, no matter what. 

Once Car_A is insured, the policy holder can legally drive it. If Khayam has DOC as part of his own car’s insurance policy (most policies do), he can legally drive Car_A so long as he has permission to do so, and so long as his own car is not in use.


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## RedOnion (18 Dec 2019)

Drakon said:


> Every car needs it’s own insurance, no matter what


That's not true, as already discussed above.


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## Drakon (18 Dec 2019)

SparkRite said:


> The vast majority of them do not stipulate such conditions.



To stipulate it is superfluous. It would be like saying the car needs to have four wheels. 

This is because all cars need their own insurance. 

If the insurance on my wife’s car has expired, then I am no longer legally able to drive it under my own insurance’s DOC. 
The last day of her policy, yes, but the day after, no.


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## Drakon (18 Dec 2019)

RedOnion said:


> That's not true, as already discussed above.


Just because it’s been discussed above doesn’t make my fact untrue.
Unless things have changed since 2015 when I was discussing the matter with McCarthy Insurance Group in Fermoy.


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## RedOnion (18 Dec 2019)

Drakon said:


> Just because it’s been discussed above doesn’t make my fact untrue.
> Unless things have changed since 2015 when I was discussing the matter with McCarthy Insurance Group in Fermoy.


Similarly to you saying something doesn't invalidate the written terms and conditions of insurance policies.

That was probably a condition of your policy.

My wife and I have different policies / insurers.

Mine has a condition that the other car must be insured.
My wife's policy doesn't.



Drakon said:


> so long as his own car is not in use.


I've never seen this condition anywhere. I've seen a condition that nobody else is driving on your policy at the time.


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## Drakon (18 Dec 2019)

Step back and think about it. 
A car insurance policy covering two operating vehicles at the same time?

My vehicle is six years old and worth about €25k. My insurance is €800 pa.
Do you think this policy for one vehicles could simultaneously be used for a second vehicles at the same time. Or a third/fourth/fifth?


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## Leo (18 Dec 2019)

Drakon said:


> If Khayam has DOC as part of his own car’s insurance policy (most policies do), he can legally drive Car_A so long as he has permission to do so, and so long as his own car is not in use.



The OP stated this was their second car suggesting they own it, DOC does not cover other cars you own. 

Here is RSA's Ts&Cs for Dirving Other Cars: 



> *Driving Other Motor Cars *
> We will cover You only under the terms of Section 1 of this Policy, provided Section 2 is operative on your policy schedule, while You are driving any private motor car with the owner’s permission, providing:
> 
> the car is not owned by You, Your employer or Your business partner
> ...



AXA's:



> *Driving other cars *
> This cover will also apply if you are driving any other car which your certificate of insurance covers you to drive. If you are covered to drive other cars, it will be shown in section 5(b) of your certificate of insurance. This cover only applies if:
> 
> you do not own the car or you have not hired the car under a hire-purchase agreement;
> ...




There is no condition that the other car must be insured by its owner, the confusion may lie in AXA's condition that the driver must maintain active insurance on their own car to allow them drive other cars under the policy.


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## Drakon (18 Dec 2019)

A car does not necessarily need to be insured by its owner. However, it needs to be insured (by someone).


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## SparkRite (18 Dec 2019)

Drakon said:


> Every car needs* it’s own* insurance, no matter what.


Fleet cover, Garage (plates) cover, Garda fleet etc. all covered but not individually (its own).



Drakon said:


> To stipulate it is superfluous. It would be like saying the car needs to have four wheels.


To stipulate it is far from superfluous, if a condition exists it is imperative that it be stated.



Drakon said:


> A car does not necessarily need to be insured by its owner. However, it needs to be insured (by someone).


99.9% of privately owned cars are and must be insured by their registered owner as who else would have an 'insurable interest'?

I am getting the distinct impression that you are just picking these T&C's 'out of thin air'.

As I have stated before, making blanket statements/assumptions are extremely 'foolhardy' when pertaining to indemnity policies.

To sum up, if a policy states " You may drive other cars, provided that ....blah...blah....." Then once those provisions are satisfied it is reasonable
to expect that you are indeed covered.


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## Drakon (18 Dec 2019)

SparkRite said:


> Fleet cover, Garage (plates) cover, Garda fleet etc. all covered but not individually (its own).



You’re the only poster that has gone off on a non-privately owned cars tangent.



SparkRite said:


> 99.9% of privately owned cars ...



Welcome back!



SparkRite said:


> ...who else would have an 'insurable interest'?



Common example:

In 1995 Johnnie and Mary get married, and they have two children, Bridget and Jonjo. 

Two decades later... and I’ll focus on  Bridget as an example. She’s working and buys an Opel Corsa. €3,000 of her own money.  However,  she’s a young driver and her insurance premium is €1,500 per annum. Instead her daddy Johnnie insures her car in his name, and has her as a named driver. The premium is €950.

Let’s have a recap here:
Car Owner: Bridget
Insurance Policy Owner: Johnnie
Main Car Driver: Bridget


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## RedOnion (18 Dec 2019)

Drakon said:


> Two decades later... and I’ll focus on Bridget as an example. She’s working and buys an Opel Corsa. €3,000 of her own money. However, she’s a young driver and her insurance premium is €1,500 per annum. Instead her daddy Johnnie insures her car in his name, and has her as a named driver. The premium is €950.
> 
> Let’s have a recap here:
> Car Owner: Bridget
> ...


Which is called "fronting". Which is illegal.


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## SparkRite (18 Dec 2019)

Drakon said:


> In 1995 Johnnie and Mary get married, and they have two children, Bridget and Jonjo.
> 
> Two decades later... and I’ll focus on Bridget as an example. She’s working and buys an Opel Corsa. €3,000 of her own money. However, she’s a young driver and her insurance premium is €1,500 per annum. Instead her daddy Johnnie insures her car in his name, and has her as a named driver. The premium is €950.
> 
> ...



Again you are mistaken.

(real)Car owner: Bridget
Registered Car Owner: Johnnie (Daddy)
Listed Main Driver (Policy Holder): Johnnie (Daddy)
(real)Main Car Driver: Bridget

This is know as 'fronting' and is a 'very dangerous game to play'.
Insurance companies are well wise to this.

So as I said above (generally in ALL cases) only the registered owner can be the policy holder.

You may argue all you like and employ condescension in your replies if you feel the need to,
but it will in no way change the fact that you are in error, that is if you wish to stay legal, which if not, opens up all
sorts of possibilities.
Which I will not discuss.


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## Drakon (19 Dec 2019)

Possibly. 
However, every car needs ti have its own insurance. Or at least that was the case in 2015.


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## Drakon (19 Dec 2019)

I’m trying to envision this no car insurance required scenario that’s being suggested. 

A car and its owner have no insurance. Therefore the car displays no valid insurance disc. The car is borrowed by the owners brother, who has insurance on his own SUV, which is in the shop for repairs. 

The brother can drive this car around legally?

Nah!


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## Drakon (19 Dec 2019)

Ravima said:


> lets agree to disagree.


Aye. Thus we can agree on.


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## RedOnion (19 Dec 2019)

Drakon said:


> Possibly.
> However, every car needs ti have its own insurance. Or at least that was the case in 2015.


No. It depends on the policy.

As an example, here's a thread on Liberty insurance from 2014, responded to by a liberty agent:





						Drive other vehicle's? - Boards.ie
					






					www.boards.ie
				




"There is no requirement for the other vehicle to be insured, "

I have written confirmation from my insurer from 2015 confirming the circumstances I was insured to drive other cars.

Or I could say I had a chat with a broker, and what I said he said applies to every policy in the country...


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## Drakon (19 Dec 2019)

Well if it’s on social media then it must be true. Conveniently there is no mention of the matter of an insurance “disc”.


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## RedOnion (19 Dec 2019)

Drakon said:


> Well if it’s on social media then it must be true


It's an official communication channel for Liberty insurance, and holds a lot more weight to me than a conversation you had with a broker in 2015!


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## Drakon (19 Dec 2019)

Given the severity of being convicted of driving without insurance, I’d discuss such matters orally with a professional rather than any social media channel. 

Personally I’d regard the latter as opinion, not advice.


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## Leo (19 Dec 2019)

Drakon said:


> Given the severity of being convicted of driving without insurance, I’d discuss such matters orally with a professional rather than any social media channel.



Why even post here if you have such disregard for the content posted by a verified business account on Boards?


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## Sunny (19 Dec 2019)

If it helps, was ringing around for quotes today and asked Aviva what happen. I would be covered third party if I was driving around in a car belonging to someone else that wasn't insured.


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