# Tracker victims at the Oireachtas Finance Committee 9.30 am today



## Brendan Burgess

The Oireachtas Finance Committee next Thursday at 9.30 am will be hearing from Padraic Kissane and some of the customers who lost their trackers.

Watch it at this link: http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/watchlisten/watchlive/committeeroom2/

Brendan


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## notabene

Hopefully that will get good attention


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## Miakk

Have affected customers been invited already and/or is there any  way for others to participate?


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## MrBanks

Ulster bank overcharged me circa 500€ a month since 2008. I am livid with Ulster Bank and am happy to go on air, radio whatever to tell my story and help others.


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## Brendan Burgess

notabene will be one of the victims appearing tomorrow, so well worth tuning in folks.

Brendan


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## Wardy7

Can't wait! We've been advised that this meeting is specifically rate issue!


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## Brendan Burgess

Wardy7 said:


> We've been advised that this meeting is specifically rate issue!



Hi Wardy 

Do you mean that it is only about ptsb and AIB  customers who got their trackers back but on a higher rate than they were expecting? 

That may have been the original intention, but nota bene has elbowed her way in to talk about the plight of the 1,000 people who lost their Ulster Bank trackers and later switched to another lender.  Ulster Bank denied that they were impacted up until early this year. 

Brendan


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## Wardy7

I know @notabene story is very complicated but isn't part of it rate?

Maybe it has changed but I was given this information only yesterday evening?

Looking forward to it regardless. I have great faith in @PadKiss & also Michael McGrath is supporting us very well (IMO)!


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## Brendan Burgess

They are all about rates in one way or the other. 

But I took it that you meant the people who got their trackers back but at 3.65% instead of, say, 0.8%. 

Brendan


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## Wardy7

I did! That's me.

I thought that was one of the elements of notabene's case too though.

At least we haven't long to wait for this hearing and 19th too.


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## Suz2015

What's on the 19th?


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## Wardy7

It's the turn of the Central Bank to appear in front of the Finance Committee.  Should be very interesting!


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## notabene

**blushes** thanks @Brendan Burgess


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## notabene

@Wardy7 they wouldn't return original tracker rate in 2008. but no sign of any rate being returned at present, my contract stipulates the tracker rate in it.


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## Suz2015

Thanks @Wardy7 No end in sight for us rate issue people, too many years of our lives wasted on this, time for the Banks to do the right thing (feeling hopeful).


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## SaySomething

Best of luck today @notabene & @PadKiss along with the other tracker affected customers speaking today. Thus far there's an Oireachtas press release from yesterday and coverage on Today FM & Newstalk news bulletins this morning. The Irish Examiner are now running a story based on these news bulletins. I suspect that once the hearing takes place it is going to be a top news story. 

I'm in work all this morning and not able to tune in. Would really appreciate any updates other members can post as I can check for updates periodically.


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## Lightening

Yes good luck to all those speaking at the Oireachtas this morning! I will be tuning in!


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## robe

Yes good luck all .
Especially with the ptsb rate issues.


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## Brendan Burgess

You will be able to watch it here at 9.30 

http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/watchlisten/watchlive/committeeroom2/


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## Wardy7

Did I read somewhere along the way that it usually takes a few minutes before we can start watching?

Yep! Still in private session!


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## Wardy7

Stories are harrowing


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## Brendan Burgess

Padraic Kissane introduces four victims


Thomas Ryan  ptsb customer who had a stroke    Ryan vs. *ptsb* court case  - Went to High Court - a tape discovered
Appeals Panel rejected their appeal for compensation

Niamh Byrne  - *Ulster Bank* - ECB +.85% - would return after fixing. Switched in 2009 to AIB.  Won at FSO in  €25k but did not get her tracker back.   I had won cases

Helen Grogan - PhD in Biology.  1% tracker with EBS.  2008 switched to *ptsb *for cheaper discounted rate.  But  2.25% after discounted period.  FSO found in favour of ptsb    Has attended ptsb'#s AGMs

Hazel Melbourne - *ptsb -* Customer Appeals Panel rejected their claim in total.
Padraic asserts that they are on the wrong rate - but does not explain why.


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## Brendan Burgess

Pearse Doherty

Thanks them on behalf of the party and on behalf of all the other people affected.

Do you have confidence in the Central Bank?   One bank will not meet the deadlines.Another has told us that they know that some have lost their rates but have not put them back.

Padraic: I had a meeting on Tuesday with them. They arrived late, but they are doing good work now. The CB grasps it. It is taking time but I have faith in the CB.  They are our only hope. They are presenting here on the 19th. They are prevented from saying what they would like to say.

[ it looks as if only two Sinn Féin and one FG senator present]

Pearse: Should the government put pressure on the state owned banks

Padraic: It's up to the banks - there is an enforcement action by the CB into Ulster Bank.

Pearse: I am struggling with what the banks told us recently. There are more affected than we thought.  But what do we do about it? You have confidence in the Central Bank. But the banks are not fixing it? What do we do?

Padraic:  If the CB hasn't got the powers, then you could give them. I am not certain that the CBI doesn't have the powers.

Pearse: What about the FSO?   Should they deal with complaints now?  They have been refusing because the banks are still dealing with trackers.

Padraic: A couple of issues.  I have improved confidence in the new FSO - Ger Deering. Better than the previous FSO.  The average uphold was 10% when I was at 75% - if they did not know how to present it, they had very little chance of success.   But you are probably better off to wait for the CB review to finish.

Pearse: What is wrong with the internal appeals process? Which banks are getting it right and which are getting it wrong? 

Padraic: ptsb - 100% of the serious cases to the Independent Review Panel have been resolved - largely to the satisfaction of the customer.  only 1 of the Customer Appeals Panel was successful.

Hazel Melbourne:  reads a statement.  We struggled for 6 years and then got a letter to say it was their error.  We were unsuccessful in our appeal because we did not show that the losses were caused by the bank's failure. How can they have an appeals process which is not independent.  There should be an independent process.  [ BB's comment: There is. She can go to the FSO or the court now that her appeal is rejected????]


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## Wardy7

notabene said:


> @Wardy7 they wouldn't return original tracker rate in 2008. but no sign of any rate being returned at present, my contract stipulates the tracker rate in it.



Sorry @notabene i had mixed you up with Helen!


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## Brendan Burgess

Chairman invites others to speak:

Thomas Ryan:  Why is there a ptsb employee on the panel?

Pearse:  How did you decide to go to the court on this one? Very risky?


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## Lightening

Had no idea the customer appeals panel almost 100 percent against the customer! Shocking!!


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## Brendan Burgess

Niamh Byrne 

In 2008 when the fixed period ended, I was put on an SVR which I challenged for 9 months. 
In May 2009 I was on a variable 3.85% but aib had 2.5% rate - I had no choice,so I switched. 
There was no discussion of trackers in the media at the time. 
In 2012, I saw that Ulster were allowing tracker holders to move their tracker mortgage to a new house
Went to the FSO - asked how long it would take - they told 5 months
Finished in DEc 2014. Delayed 5 times as FSO needed clarification from Ulster Bank. 
By the FSO's standards, I had a victory. They gave me €25k but did not give me back my tracker. 

When it hit the media the following autumn, I did a data protection order on the bank. Internal emails showed that if I had been a customer I would get a tracker back.  For Ulster Bank, the Ombudsman was a no lose situation. If I won, they would not have to give me back my tracker. 

I went back after the bank. I wrote to them every week last year - 40 times. I had a meeting with Ulster in December.  They spent the meeting telling me to stop writing to them.  In January 2017 they deemed me as impacted. 

I know my case is more complicated because I switched banks. 

I wrote to the CB saying that they were not adhering to the CB guidelines. 

So I applied to the FSO again.  They told me in June that they had not got my online complaint as there were problems with the system. But they won't do anything until the examination is finished.

Last week, Ulster told you that there were 1,000 customers like me who had switched who had not been told. 

It's 9 years and 2 months since this happened. 

I am watching my mental health. 

A brilliant performance.


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## Brendan Burgess

Senator Rose Conway Walsh (FF Senator Horkan now present as well.)

Have any of you gone to the Gardaí? 

Kissane: I am only interested in getting people back their trackers.

RCW: What do we need to do to allow class actions? 

Niamh: I went to the Gardai and the Office of Director Enforcement. But they told me that the burden of proof was too high. Unless I had a whistleblower saying that it was deliberate.


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## Lightening

"The bank of you"(KBC) lies


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## Brendan Burgess

Lightening said:


> Had no idea the customer appeals panel almost 100 percent against the customer! Shocking!!



That was Padraic's experience. 

7% were fully upheld and about 18% more partially upheld. 

Brendan


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## Brendan Burgess

Helen Grogan

I took out a 1% tracker with AIB

ptsb were offering a 0.8% tracker - I went into ptsb and they told me that it had been reduced to 0.6% for one year. I switched but after a year, they put me on 2.25%

[Lesson - turn off your phones before any committee meeting.]

They gave me options - a variable rate of less than 2.25% - so I took the SVR.


The ptsb rate went higher than anyone else's.

I started a complaint and went to the FSO.  They found against me as Special Condition 9 allowed them to charge me what they like. My case is that they sold me an .8% tracker with a one year discount.

I have since switched from ptsb.

I have been overcharged by €40k. And will pay a total of €70k too much by the end of the mortgage.

I am coming up to retirement soon and will still have a mortgage when I retire.

Great emotion. 

When I heard about Padraic's cases, I realised that I was not on my own.


They changed the meaning of what a tracker mortgage is. I knew what a tracker meant, they didn't. 

Brendan


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## Brendan Burgess

FG Senator on now. ( I missed the last 10 minutes.)

Padraic saying that the last Ombudsman didn't do a good job.

Senator: Are you saying that the CB is not using the powers it has?

Padraic: They are still of a receptive nature. They need to be directive


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## Brendan Burgess

Chairman wrapping up - We will bring your stories from today to the Central Bank next week. 

Padraic; I have staff from the banks with tracker problems. I have staff from the accountancy firms and staff from the legal firms who have tracker problems. 

Brendan


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## Brendan Burgess

Pearse 

There is a bill since 2005 to facilitate class action. That would help. 

Will it be more than 20,000 

Padraic: I have cohorts who are deemed not affected. If they are admitted, it will be over 30,000


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## Lightening

cohorts identified by Padraic are over 30,000


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## Lightening

Finally class action on the horizon


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## robe

A very well done and thank you to Padraic and the 4 speakers this morning .


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## BlueSky

Well done and huge thanks to everyone who attended ( and thanks for updates here).


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## justo

Well done all - thanks for sharing your experiences under the banks' control. I think your actions today are an important step in making sure the banks are held accountable.


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## moneymakeover

Full credit to Padraic and the customers today.

It seems like the tracker movement is gaining more and more momentum.

Fair play in particular to notabene


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## Gen360

Big, Big thanks to everyone who appeared this morning. Very important, let's hope they're listening.


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## SaySomething

Well done to everybody who presented today. And agreed in particular to @notabene who is not a client of Padraic Kissanes. She was drafted in at very short notice and was fantastic.


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## Lightening

Yes well done to all!! Everyone spoke very well! We are at a standstill with all the banks and this situation must not be allowed continue. The Central Bank has to sanction if this situation does not change immediately. Get on with getting this resolved now.


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## Lightening

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/20...-tracker-customers-address-finance-committee/


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## MsBinky

Wasn't able to watch it live,  is there a playback option does anyone know?


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## notabene

Thanks for all if the lovely comments, we were thinking of all of you in this situation in there


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## Sarenco

Congrats to all who appeared today but I am baffled at the free pass being given to the Central Bank for this ongoing farce.


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## SaySomething

Sarenco said:


> Congrats to all who appeared today but I am baffled at the free pass being given to the Central Bank for this ongoing farce.


The Central Bank appears on 19th (this day next week) before the Finance Committee. Time to make submissions if you haven't done already.
They did respond to press queries last Friday stating that they are constrained by legislation and cannot force the banks to resolve affected customers pre 2013. It'll be interesting to hear what they say on Thursday.


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## Mauritius

I watched the whole thing live and there is nothing stronger than people speaking out: real lives, real distress, the ongoing stress and anxiety caused by this. These are the voices that need to be heard. I have done a big news interview for the Sunday Independent on how KBC nearly destroyed me over the last few years. It will be out this weekend. I have come out the other side and I no longer fear the banks.  I will tell them exactly what I think of them.  The jokes they made with each other when I went in for a meeting with them....  Admitting "off the record" that there was a tracker issue but forever denying it in writing.  
We must all rise up against the banks and tell of our own personal real life impact.  I've never spoken publicly about my still unresolved tracker dispute against the arrogant, ruthlessly greedy KBC bank. People will be shocked by the content but the time has come for it to be heard.


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## ragdal

Well done all. Very brave. Hopefully, as Padraic stated, this will be a landmark moment


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## moneymakeover

@SaySomething 
Is there a link to where it is reported that central Bank said to press that they cannot force banks to restore customers affected pre 2013?


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## tonymac

I have just seen the people who were in front of the dail committee today and my god, youre heart would go out to them, theyre so brave to go there to explain their lositions to the committee. Adequate financial compensation is the least that should be offered to these and many peolle affected by this issue especially people who lost their homes due to the rampant overcharging by the banks. People like the ones on six one today for starters should be told that their mortgages are fully paid up and this should be followed up by the useless consumer protection bodies such as the ombudsman and central bank. People in banks responsible for this should be prosecuted and jailed but that of course would be doing the decent thing which up to now hasnt been done by the state authorities which is another matter entirely. This overcharging is a serious national scandal and its time it was treated as such. Ive been involved in the SVR gouging scandal mainly but this issue serious as it is is well behind whats going on here although im quite sure if research was done on the SVR overcharging issue some people lost their homes here too due to paying over the european normal rates Im listening to Hazel Melbourne now and shes so brave to go on tele to tell her story. I was on six one myself a few weeks ago and spoke about trying to get MIR kept which is the least the state could do to compensate people on excessive SVRs who have done more than their share to get the dasterdly banks profitable again and more attractive for sale. I have heard Padraig Kissane speak at a few meetings ive been at on this threads issue and he is doing wonderful work on the tracker issue and deserves huge credit.


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## SaySomething

@moneymakeover 
From the Irish Examiner on Friday last:

The Department of Finance said last night that the Central Bank has powers to compel lenders to redress customers, but only dating to 2013 legislation.

It added: “The Central Bank does not have statutory powers to compel lenders in respect of failures that occurred prior to the introduction of the Act.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/central-bank-urged-to-intervene-on-trackers-460511.html


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## Brendan Burgess

Hi SS

I have had this argument for over 10 years with the Financial Regulator and later the Central Bank.

Every senior executive must meet the standards of fitness and probity.

They have probably told the senior executives already, that they would not regard someone who does not treat customers fairly does not meet their standards of probity. 

Most of the cases of lost trackers would not have a chance in court if it were based on the strict legal interpretation of their contracts. The CB has told them to go beyond this and the banks have all agreed to do so. 

Brendan


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## SaySomething

@Brendan Burgess totally agreed. I believe the Central Bank are to publish an update next week on Mon/Tues in advance of their hearing. 

I hear Séan O’Rourke is to cover this again tomorrow morning. All we can hope right now is that the increased public awareness brings more results.


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## Onceagain

Well done to everyone today and Padraic Kissane for keeping the fire burning.


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## MrBanks

Well done to all for speaking out it isn't easy to do. And to Padraic Kissane. Where would we be without his help.


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## Stitcher

Say something, what act is that? What was the gist of it?


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## TrackerThieves

Thank you to everyone that appeared today on behalf of all of us and to Padraic and his staff for standing up to the banks over the last few years. I found a lot of similarities with my own case while listening to the 4 cases today and how the banks treated them. Even though my case is with a different lender the tactics are the same . Even though the people responsible may be gone and no longer at the banks the treatment still going on today is shameful. Amazing how often the paperwork or recorded calls are not available when it suits them. There seems to be momentum building and politicians that genuinely seem willing to help, hopefully we are finally getting somewhere but sadly may be still a long way to go for some of us.


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## Lightening

Conor Pope The Irish Times;

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.iri...-mortgage-scandal-is-about-1.3253996?mode=amp


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## Lightening

Thomas Ryan's statement in particular outlined in the Irish Independent;

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.ind...rtgage-rate-scandal-victims-say-36220624.html


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## Miakk

Thank you to Padraic & all who put themselves forward.

Having been given the run around by the bank and then the FSO, I could completely relate to Helen Grogan’s words:

“The one thing is the rage and frustration and anger that I was ripped off by the bank and duped by the bank, into thinking I had a product I could count on. That’s the thing about this.”

“It took me a couple of years to get over the fact that the ombudsman had found against me.”

Ms Grogan added: “Isn’t it such a disgrace that we are all made to feel responsible for making a silly or stupid decision or not getting the right advice or letting the banks ride roughshod over us.”

...it still smarts when I think of the bank’s and the ombudsman’s comments (in writing) that I should have got independent legal advice before fixing my tracker- as if that was the standard, as if that excuses what was basically misselling by the bank (as before I would sign the fixed rate paperwork I specifically requested a product that would retain my tracker). Silly me, UB & the FSO maintained it was all my own fault!!!  How dare they.


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## Lightening

These four brave individuals have taken a huge step in going public! It has had a huge impact! I was on the luas last night and people were talking about it! What the banks have done to ordinary people in this country. This is what we need to do! I'm waiting till I see what the CB will do and if they have grown a pair, if not I'm not going to be behind the door!


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## Bronte

Brendan Burgess said:


> Hazel Melbourne:  reads a statement.  We struggled for 6 years and then got a letter to say it was their error.  We were unsuccessful in our appeal because we did not show that the losses were caused by the bank's failure. How can they have an appeals process which is not independent.  There should be an independent process.  [ BB's comment: There is. She can go to the FSO or the court now that her appeal is rejected????]



I think the comment that the client can appeal to court is way too blase.  I had a case, not tracker and not a serious issue for me, but I got legal opinion from a barrister that I'd a 1/3 chance of success.  It effectively meant nothing as even with a 99% chance there was no way I'd go to the High court.  Ordinary people can not to to court because we do not have the money to pay for good legal advice and gthe banks will throw all their money against us.  They have all the top legal firms in their paybook in addition - those legal firms are not going to act against their bread and butter - the constant stream of cases the banks contest.  Evidence of this BB has seen first hand as he goes into court and sees court case after court case going on for years and years.

(A senior judge in the last week mentioned how effectively people in Ireland do not have access to the court system because of the prohibitive costs - nothing to do with trackers/banks - just in general)


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## Bronte

Brendan Burgess said:


> I went back after the bank. I wrote to them every week last year - 40 times. I had a meeting with Ulster in December.  They spent the meeting telling me to stop writing to them.  In January 2017 they deemed me as impacted.
> 
> I know my case is more complicated because I switched banks.
> 
> I wrote to the CB saying that they were not adhering to the CB guidelines.
> 
> So I applied to the FSO again.  They told me in June that they had not got my online complaint as there were problems with the system. But they won't do anything until the examination is finished.
> 
> .



Well done Niamh Byrne.

I'm an Ulster bank customer, about 10 years ago I got a phone call from a manager in my branch to tell me that they'd been overcharging me.  It's not a normal mortgage.  I was refunded around 10K.  I'd never have known only this person spotted it and I'd been sending emails about my interest rate.  When my 'mortgage' ends I will hire someone like Padraic Kissane to check the mortgage for the entire term in order to see if I've been correctly charged all along.  I advise anyone with mortgages to do the same. 

In relation to the ignorant response of Ulster to Niamh in telling her to stop writing to them.  Just who do they think they are.  I've had my own letter writing to them and I've come to the conclusion the staff are specifically trained to avoid answering letters correctly. 

I also went to the FSO (previous office) , no surprises I lost, though I did get compensation (twice, small beans). 

And I don't at all understand how this saga can carry on for so many years and still not be sorted.  Does anyone think that if a CEO of the bank had this kind of issue it wouldn't be sorted within 24 hours.


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## Bronte

Yes RTE has a playback option.  It mightn't be available immediately after the show though.  Try again today.  You can also write to RTE, they are very polite to deal with.


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## Bronte

Brendan Burgess said:


> That was Padraic's experience.
> 7% were fully upheld and about 18% more partially upheld.
> 
> Brendan



It's a numbers game for the bank.  Wear you out, allow a percentage and win win for the banks.  How many were so desperate or destitute they gave up long ago.  Bet anything the banks have statistics on how to beat the customers.  Like an actuary running the percentages.


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## Bronte

Brendan Burgess said:


> Chairman wrapping up - We will bring your stories from today to the Central Bank next week.
> 
> Padraic; I have staff from the banks with tracker problems. I have staff from the accountancy firms and staff from the legal firms who have tracker problems.



Me personally I think the Central Bank are a disgrace.  They left this go on for years and were anything but pro active.  They failed bank customers and they failed Irish society.  Even if they are doing 'something' now, is this the best they could have been.  Small people up against the might of AIB or Ulster.


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## Bronte

Irish examiner

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/mortgage-expert-30000-people-will-be-hit-by-scandal-460858.html

The tracker mortgage scandal will, “without a shadow of a doubt”, affect more than 30,000 customers before the authorities get to grips with the matter, far higher than the 15,000 currently estimated by the Central Bank.

Mr Kissane, who has been advising hundreds of customers since the tracker scandal broke, said: “It is financial abuse on a grand scale, contrived to deceive customers of their contractual rights.”


========

_Well said Padraic.  You who have been working tirelessly for years to help broken people.  With your relatively small office taking on the biggest most powerful endless deep pockets banks for years on behalf of the little people_


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## Bronte

Padraic is dead right too about the banks being a cartel.  About their arrogance and condescension. 

Padraic I especially like this:

_The had been stalling, stonewalling and obfuscation by the banks since the scandal broke, he added.

“Their slogans are lies and full of marketing nonsense,” he said. “The integrity of financial services has been destroyed.”
_
As Padraic and the customers affected now know, all there is is greed. No humanity.  None whatsoever. And in the face of desparate people and suicides too.  I've no doubt that some posters who came on here for help committed suicide, I read their stories and they were in many cases broken people.  I never thought they'd win against the banks, but it's way too late for many.


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## MrBanks

The banks are bricks and mortar.  It is the people that agreed to do this that have questions to ask themselves in the dead of night. I would hate to be one of those people in the banks that has been part of this. Even in a small way.  How can they sleep at night and look their own children in the eyes.


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## Brendan Burgess

Niamh was interviewed for Newstalk Breakfast and I commented on it at around 8.15 this morning.

Helen Grogan recorded an interview for the Pat Kenny Show on Newstalk which will be coming up soon.

Padraic will be on Seán O'Rourke.

Brendan


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## Lightening

On now newstalk now


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## Wardy7

On a lighter note......

10th wedding anniversary next Thursday, 19th (hoping that's a good omen as it's when the CB appear in front of Finance Committee!)

Starting his speech, hubby stood up, uttered the following words & sat back down:

"I don't know what a Tracker mortgage is " (mimicking the tv ad)

The irony of it!! Who knew where we'd be & what we'd be fighting for today!!


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## SaySomething

Front pages of the Irish Daily Mail & Irish Examiner today.


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## Wardy7

Listening now to Helen.


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## MrBanks

On Sean O’Rourke show now.


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## robe

WlR at the moment


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## Bronte

The Taoiseach

http://www.independent.ie/irish-new...veals-he-has-a-tracker-mortgage-36223946.html

_Taoiseach Leo Varadkar revealed he holds a tracker mortgage as he angrily warned that the deadline was yesterday for Irish banks to repay people who they had wrongly taken off such mortgages._

Too little too late, empty words.


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## Bikini Widow

Well done to all who spoke out yesterday, it has resulted in the first semi forceful Fine Gael comment I have seen on this entire debacle.  Obviously would love to see action behind the words.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-new...veals-he-has-a-tracker-mortgage-36223946.html


Many thanks,
BW


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## MrBanks

Bikini Widow said:


> Well done to all who spoke out yesterday, it has resulted in the first semi forceful Fine Gael comment I have seen on this entire debacle.  Obviously would love to see action behind the words.
> 
> http://www.independent.ie/irish-new...veals-he-has-a-tracker-mortgage-36223946.html
> 
> 
> Many thanks,
> BW



Agree completely. Need to keep going. The Journal are hopefully going to run story about our woes with Ulster Bank. The shouts are getting louder.


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## Lightening

Im pretty certain I heard John MCGuinness near the end of the talk on Thursday state "that the Central Bank have the tools to get this sorted and that if the Central Bank need more tools to get this resolved all they have to do is ask the Oireachtas for those tools. (Not exact words but to that effect)

All eyes will be on the Oireachtas on the 19th to see will the Central Bank impose new deadlines/sanctions. I can't imagine they will not do this!  A change in the law to allow Class action is also needed now.


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## Tedtalk

Well done to the customers yesterday, Padraic and Brendan for their work and this platform which has taken this scandal to another level (correctly) over the last two days!!


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## LadyHB

Just to add my thanks to everyone who has worked so hard to bring attention to this mess. Sharing personal stories took a lot of courage. It really feels there's a lot of momentum behind it right now which we have to try and maintain. I nearly cheered when I saw Varadkar's comments today. It's encouraging at least.  I for one, am going to steel myself once again to send more letters.


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## Chazza80

Thanks so much to all yesterday. What courage! And to Padraic Kissane and his lovely staff who listen to my woes and frustrations every few weeks. Well done and thank you.


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## Brendan Burgess

I just listened back to Helen Grogan on the Pat Kenny radio show this morning.  She was excellent in explaining what is a complicated story. 

She has also spoken at the ptsb AGM and it's a pity more victims don't come forward and tell their story. 

When ptsb sees Helen and Ulster Bank sees Niamh, they know that they have a real battle on their hands.

Brendan


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## Mark Watson

Central bank will not bear its teeth against the banks. It is a well known fact that dog does not eat dog. These lads work and socialise together and we are regarded as collateral damage. 

Our economic power is not concentrated so we rely on elected representatives. Unless they are willing to make decisions about interest levels and deadlines no one else in my opinion will. 

So make demands that when interest is calculated daily on our mortgages so should the damages 12% compound per day will sort it. Damages up to the day of re-numeration being settled not to the time our rates where given back. Is it time that those who are able to speak out became demanding on our behalf and I admire their courage. Lets look on the redress as unapproved overdrafts that the bank have with us and see the fees and interest multiply.


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## Lightening

Brendan I am itching to get the teeth in as is many others I'm sure from all the banks. There are many people quite capable of speaking sure haven't we years of practice going around and around in our heads in my case since 2009.

If you look at my posts I didn't even sleep last night am so angry

Believe me KBC won't know what hit them when I get going!

Holding off to see CB and KBCs next move.


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## MrBanks

Lightening said:


> Brendan I am itching to get the teeth in as is many others I'm sure from all the banks. There are many people quite capable of speaking sure haven't we years of practice going around and around in our heads in my case since 2009.
> 
> If you look at my posts I didn't even sleep last night am so angry
> 
> Believe me KBC won't know what hit them when I get going!
> 
> Holding off to see CB and KBCs next move.



I didn't sleep the whole of Thursday night. Am livid with Ulster bank. I had to take a chill today as it is not good for my health.  Everyone now can play a role however small. Behind or front of scene. If Ulster Bank don't redress me before Christmas I am going to camp outside their offices.


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## Sligolive

I think compensation levels @ over 50% rather than 20% should be the norm regarding customers who were were adversely impacted.......20% is not a sufficient penalty for the banks.


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## moneymakeover

I listened to Helen Grogan this morning .. I thought you were excellent.. very composed.

I thought Pat Kenny was excellent .. demonstrated very good understanding of the details.

I think Helen would agree he managed to get to the heart of the story.. a "tracker girl"


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## MrBanks

Padraic on newstalk with Ivan Yeats hard shoulder.  You can listen back on newstalk.com. He was on at 5pm so part 2.


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## moneymakeover

It's fantastic that the numbers of customers mean we can take on the banks.

What if only one customer was affected? 

Banks can do what they want.

It makes one question the justice system in this country.


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## Stitcher

Niamh and the other impacted customers gave a great account of issues to the Oireachtas committee yesterday
You were all absolutely great. 

Check out the full video of the proceedings at www.Oireachtas.ie,  playback,  committees. Oct 12. Finance committee.  
I have looked at it again and it is so powerful. Hopefully we can take this all the way.  

It starts about 37 mins in. 

The publicity today on radio and in papers was so powerful too.

Can't believe that Leo has a tracker!! HE Knows what WE have been deprived of.

It is so powerful.

http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=37016&&CatID=127


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## moneymakeover

Angry that people have been treated do badly


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## Jespie1

We have great momentum going here with very brave people front and centre


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## Leighlinboy

One of the better days in the history of this saga , serious media exposure in last few days , míle buíochas to everyone who shared their stories , Padraic and Brendan stressed the need for these individual stories , papers and media really ran with them !! Hope this head of steam leads somewhere , central bank we are all watching ur next move !


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## roan

SaySomething said:


> They did respond to press queries last Friday stating that they are constrained by legislation and cannot force the banks to resolve affected customers pre 2013. It'll be interesting to hear what they say on Thursday.



I find this statement alarming!

Is this a get out clause for the CENTRAL BANK to do nothing??And, sit on their hands!


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## SaySomething

It’s not alarming. They stated the same at their last Oireachtas hearing. There’s a legislatory issue.


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## moneymakeover

This is the quote



> The Department of Finance said last night that the Central Bank has powers to compel lenders to redress customers, but only dating to 2013 legislation.



From
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/central-bank-urged-to-intervene-on-trackers-460511.html


Is this limit on the central bank only in relation to "redress"?

Does the central bank have the power to restore people to tracker? Dating back to pre 2006?

Does the central bank have the power to tell ptsb to put Helen Grogan back on a 0.8% tracker? And she has since left ptsb.


Does the central bank have the power to tell Ulster bank to put notabene back on her original tracker? And she is no longer a Ulster customer.

Or will the central bank say something like: we know you're right. We can't do anything. You will have to go to court.


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## Brendan Burgess

Stitcher said:


> Can't believe that Leo has a tracker!!



I would guess that half of the TDs have mortgages. 
And half of them would be trackers. 
There might even be one or two who have lost their trackers. 

Brendan


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## roan

Quote"The Department of Finance said last night that the Central Bank has powers to compel lenders to redress customers, but only dating to 2013 legislation.

It added: “The Central Bank does not have statutory powers to compel lenders in respect of failures that occurred prior to the introduction of the Act" unquote

In other words the Central Bank is toothless!!


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## Threadser

Lets hope the media coverage this week will encourage more of those affected to speak up, get angry and get emailing TDs. There were 602 BOI customers including me identified as affected by this in Dec 16th. I have been wondering have the other 601 been waiting patiently all year to get some information from the bank or are they similarly annoyed and frustrated by the lack of action. I haven't seen any of their stories in the media. There are thousands of others affected across all banks and now is the time to speak up, put the pressure on and let the regulators. banks and TDs know that we have had enough and we want action. 20,000 people plus cannot be ignored if everyone gets involved.


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## MrBanks

I really don't know. The only thing is if the highest office in the country  (Leo) is telling them to do the right thing there, does the political pressure outweigh the lack of legislation.
P.s anyone interested in going on Pat Kenny? Message me and will put you in touch.


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## SaySomething

John McGuinness in the Irish Times today, moots the suggestion that the banks have their licences restricted until they resolve the issue: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ire...icted-over-mortgage-scandal-td-says-1.3255688

In relation to the Central Bank's ability to push the banks to redress... It's clear that for some it's a clearcut breach of contract situation. For others it's an obvious breach of the CPC (consumer protection code), and for others it's a little more grey.

For all, we are now hamstrung within the Tracker Examination Programme with nowhere to turn until the banks redress.

Now if the CB had said, right anybody who is affected pre 2013 can now go to the Ombudsman or legal route, then we'd know where we stood. That leaves the post 2013 cohort to be dealt with under the Examination and the rest to pursue our cases directly. 

Instead, we are powerless in the face of an Examination that is dragging on far too long.


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## SaySomething

Um why does the Central Bank say this in its documentation in May 2016? 

_The Statute of Limitations does not apply to the Central Bank’s powers to enforce compliance with 
regulatory requirements including those relevant to this Examination and does not negate lenders’
obligations to comply with the relevant regulatory requirements set out by the Central Bank._​
https://www.centralbank.ie/docs/def...tgage-examination-clarifications-5may2016.pdf


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## Stitcher

Can someone enlighten me about the 2013 legislation? Is there a link to it somewhere?  My issue with bank was in 2009.


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## SaySomething

Stitcher said:


> Can someone enlighten me about the 2013 legislation? Is there a link to it somewhere?  My issue with bank was in 2009.


Make a cup of tea. This will take some time. 
*Central Bank (Supervision and Enforcement) Act 2013*
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2013/act/26/enacted/en/print.html


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## Mauritius

Most issues were in 2008/2009.  This was the period when the banks made a conscious decision to use any way they could to get people off tracker rates.


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## robe

Is it just me or is the absence of these stories in the Sunday papers a bit strange ??


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## Lightening

robe said:


> Is it just me or is the absence of these stories in the Sunday papers a bit strange ??



Was also thinking the same thing!!


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## Brendan Burgess

Hi robe

It's not strange at all.  Sunday papers often avoid a news item which they feel has been covered before. And no one can doubt that the issue got great coverage this week.

Brendan


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## SaySomething

robe said:


> Is it just me or is the absence of these stories in the Sunday papers a bit strange ??


Features are often commissioned early in the week. The hearing was on Thurs.


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## Mauritius

I had my story is one of the main Sunday newspapers. All done, written, proofed, photo of me outside the bank etc.... ready to go but pulled by the editor at 8pm on Saturday night. The banks in this country still wield all the power.


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## Threadser

Mauritius said:


> I had my story is one of the main Sunday newspapers. All done, written, proofed, photo of me outside the bank etc.... ready to go but pulled by the editor at 8pm on Saturday night. The banks in this country still wield all the power.


 That is shocking. Did the editor give you a reason why it was pulled?


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## Mauritius

I wasn't informed. I found out when I bought the newspaper and it wasn't in it.  What happened to me if fairly shocking, like many of the real life accounts during the week. It is still not resolved and I think the newspaper was afraid of the bank taking legal action.


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## Lightening

I don't get it!! Thought the journalists wanted our stories!! The Faces behind the Tracker scandal!


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## Mauritius

That's what happened to me. I gave the my story. First time I ever spoke out about it.  I think the editor was so shocked by the bank's treatment of me he doubted if it was true!! Ripped off big time....


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## Gavin77

Mauritius I'm sorry to hear that. For you to speak up speak out bring all the details to the forefront of your mind and processing it all again is hard in itself. Then putting it out there for all to read takes guts. Then you do it and it's pulled! Am I shocked that it was pulled no. Not that's it's the same but I spoke at the city west meeting for the radio. The reason I spoke was i had heard kbc in the oireachtas saying how they want to hear if people are suffering. When I phoned them many years ago when things were spiralling i had many ph calls... one with them telling me if I can't afford my morgage there's plenty of opportunities for me to better myself. Ect ect. I spoke about these conversations, that whole part of the interview was cut and they just played the end. 
It just goes to show the constant boundaries that exist.


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## Mauritius

Yes you're right, Gavin77. I had to dig up the past nine years and go through it all again. I was motivated by the same reason as you. When KBC completely blanked the Oireachtas Finance Committee, I decided the time had come to speak out, even though a large part of me doesn't want the country to know my personal business. I weighted it up and decided that the country needed to know what a terrible, greedy, arrogant lot they are, hiding behind their cute little slogans like "The Bank of You."  Don't fall for it! They don't care about "You." All they care is about making money out of 'you' - as much as possible. Maybe it wasn't the right time for my story to come out. Perhaps the editor did me a favour. But I am so sick of this and how it is dragging on and on and how nobody seems to have the power or ability to get it sorted out. The banks are still winning.


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## MrBanks

Maybe it will still run? I know a lot in media are waiting on the what happens with the Central Bank on Thurs. This will generate a lot of interest again then.
I did also find the zero articles in the Sunday papers bit strange though.


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## moneymakeover

Can you get another paper to print the story?


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## notabene

If anyone is willing to speak to the Daily Mail, they are looking for case studies for the paper as they have started a tracker campaign - their reporter covering it is lovely.


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