# danske bank re-possesion letter



## horatio1 (28 Feb 2014)

Hi,
   Brief history, We self built around 5 years ago with a mortgage from the then NIB. My partner lost her job but we managed to keep up full payments through my wage and savings , redundancy etc. Luckily she got a new job on a reduced wage and as the redundancy savings went we struggled but kept up with the repayments.

  About two and a half years ago she became pregnant and we went on interest only for an initial 6 months which was carried on for another year or so. At that time we got a new case officer who we met with and he asked us to pay the interest plus € 100 off the capital which again we struggled with but managed. He said that this was a stop gap while they were putting together a long term policy for people in mortgage arrears.

  Last year he called us into his office and talked us through what he advised would work for both parties. His offer was to park half the 280k mortgage( no interest accruing) which would leave us paying € 650 pm. We said we would struggle with this but that we would reduce the only other debt we had a credit union loan which we had already reduced previously by another € 50.

  We sent in all the forms, pay slips , etc and waited to hear from me. I mailed him before christmas and he rang me to say that all was in hand and that he would be back to me in the new year. I had mailed him a few times with no reply or out of office and rang his direct line 6-8 times this week with no reply so i resumed he was on holidays.

  This morning we received a letter from a different individual at the bank saying having assessed our application they were not in a position to offer us an alternative payment arrangement because other unsecured debts and monthly household expenditure are being prioritised over the home loan repayment.

    It goes onto say we are now outside of MARP. That we should get advice on Voluntary surrender of our property or trading down. They state if we can not do this and arrears remain they will initiate repossesion proceedings will commence.

    They then say " however if you can afford to pay € 890 I will be able to resubmit your application to the credit committee". They finish by saying we will be liable for any shortfall between the sale price and the outstanding loan.

    I rang through and asked to speak to our original officer and was told he no longer works for them. I asked to speak to the new person and he is on a day off. I have arranged that he will call me on Monday at 9am.

    Just looking for some advice on what to do , my partner hasnt stopped crying since she read the letter .We have never missed a payment on this loan throughout the process and engaged with them at all times but it looks like they are now trying to either squeeze money from us that isnt there or that they just want it off the books.

Thanks in advance


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## 44brendan (28 Feb 2014)

This appears to be an unusual situation, where on the face of it there was some level of miscommunication in dealings with the Bank. Your summary indicates that you have been co-operating with the Bank at all times and understood that an agreement had been reached. Your best bet know is to document the engagement with the Bank exactly as it happened and your understanding that an agreement had been reached. It is certainly not your fault that internal communications were problematic. Send this by registered post to your new account manager and emphasise that all times you have adhered to Bank requests for information and repayment agreements. The subsequent letter received from the Bank appears to be incorrect with MARP process as it indicates that you were in some way deficient in supplying information. In the event that an alternative repayment agreement cannot be reached you are entitled to appeal both internally and to the Bank Ombudsman. Given the circumstances as outlined above you appear to have a good case for appeal if the Bank do not give you an opportunity to agree a realistic repayment structure!!


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## 44brendan (28 Feb 2014)

Forgot to point out that you must use the internal process first before you can approach the Ombudsman!


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## Gerry Canning (28 Feb 2014)

Sorry to hear of your plight.

A few things.
1. Will Bank still hold to offer park half mortgage on the k280?
2. That offer was on a phone call.Can you get/ask for copy of that call?Please get it.
3. Looks like Bank have changed their position from one of 650 a mth and park rest .
4. Now it seems 890 or else?At a push can you manage that?

From your thread ,offer of 650 per mth was made subject to usual documentation.

You may have to play hardball on this one.
Do you have any good local financial contact.?

Your case sounds far from hopeless but you DO need a good finance person.
.


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## ang1170 (28 Feb 2014)

horatio1 said:


> Just looking for some advice on what to do , my partner hasnt stopped crying since she read the letter .We have never missed a payment on this loan throughout the process and engaged with them at all times but it looks like they are now trying to either squeeze money from us that isnt there or that they just want it off the books.



I've been dealing with Danske in MARP for about two years now. Your case is far from hopeless, but you should follow the advice above, and document clearly the sequence of events, emphasising you have always kept to the agreed payments.

My experience is that they will back down, especially if you frame all correspondence with a view to how it would be seen in any subsequent legal proceeding (e.g. emphasise their lack of response and/or engagement in contrast to your own efforts).

My experience is also that over the past couple of years practically every one we've dealt with has left. More recently, in the past couple of months, they have gone quiet (no surprise that there's no sanction for banks not engaging with customers in the Central Bank code, but that's a separate issue).

Best of luck with this - do not loose heart. Follow the advice above, and if you are in a position to meet what they originally proposed to you, it should be possible to make it all work out.


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## horatio1 (1 Mar 2014)

Thanks so much for the good wishes and advice. Spent most of this morning documenting our contacts with the bank and came across an e mail from original officer which I had forgotten he sent. I have pasted below with names removed.



As discussed this morning we will proceed on basis onf monthly commitment of €650 towards the mortgage payment. 

There are a few admin requirements as mentioned which I would appreciate if you could attend to.  Can i ask to to please provide the following;? 

- Credit Union statement showing reduced monthly repayments 
- Joint account statements showing Canada life policy payments ( This was on joint account statements last year,- i presume that is still the case) 
-Payslip for X( I think Y wages are mandated to the account and show on statements, if not please provide a payslip for Y also) 
- Copy fire policy which was renewed in June 

If you have original hard copy of the Strtandard Financial statement, please forward same. I will send out blank hard copy in the post which you can sign and return with the other documents in the envelope provided. X also needs to sign 2 sections of Use of Information form which I will also send out- we already have Y signatures on a current version of the form. 

I appreaciate that there apopears to be a lot there but it's mostly housekeeping stuff  & we can proceed with the application in the meantime. 

 all of the above documents were sent and that was the last we heard from him. I have another 3 mails from me requesting a progress update and 6-8 calls to his direct line last week.

 while I know the above mail does not constitute a direct offer, I think it was fair to presume that he was being very positive about it being accepted.

 anyway I am going to speak to the new guy Monday and request a face to face meeting to try and resolve it. As advised here I will be seeking professional advice before that meeting. A relative has recommended new beginning . Is that an option I should explore?

Thanks again


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## Brendan Burgess (1 Mar 2014)

You really need to complete the             Standard Format for mortgage arrears Case Studies  to get a full answer. 




> Last year he called us into his office and talked us through what he  advised would work for both parties. His offer was to park half the 280k  mortgage( no interest accruing) which would leave us paying € 650 pm.  We said we would struggle with this but that we would reduce the only  other debt we had a credit union loan which we had already reduced  previously by another € 50.



I don't know what the status of this is.  Is the guy you met entitled to reach an agreement with you?  I suspect that he agreed to make a submission to the credit committee, who would make the final decision.  




> This morning we received a letter from a different individual at the  bank saying having assessed our application they were not in a position  to offer us an alternative payment arrangement because* other unsecured  debts and monthly household expenditure are being prioritised* over the  home loan repayment.


Do you want to keep your house? If so, why are you prioritising your unsecured debts?  I think that Danske Bank and the other banks are absolutely right to seek repossession when people are prepared to pay their unsecured debtors over their home loan. 

You probably have a cheap tracker. Danske have facilitated this by putting it on interest only. From the limited information provided, you don't seem to have responded to this by cutting out your unsecured creditors. 

Are you living within the Insolvency Service's Reasonable Living Guidelines? 

Brendan


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## ang1170 (1 Mar 2014)

I'm sure the OP can respond to this themselves, but my reading of what they said is that they did everything asked of the bank, and that they've turned round and taken a previous offer off the table, have asked them to surrender their home and declared them out of the MARP process.

Whilst there's definitely two sides to every story, based on my own experience of dealing with Danske over the past two years, I'm inclined believe the OP.

It is not the case that Danske behave in a reasonable way. They are not as bad as some, but my experience is they do not pay attention to the information provided and do not respond in a timely way (as they are required to do). My experience is that they refused reasonable offers, only accepting them when it is pointed out in excruciating detail the fact that everything has been done that was asked, and their position lacked any logic from their own position. 

Dealing with them is a very draining process: my sympathies and support are with the OP, as everything they say rings true.

As for paying off unsecured creditors, my experience is that they are extremely challenging to deal with: it took us weeks of "negotiation" and going through three levels of hierarchy to get a term loan we had rescheduled to a term that brought the repayments to an affordable level in our case (this was from one of the big two banks). It's very easy to call someone out for prioritising unsecured loans, but not so easy to do so in practice. Did Danske ask them to do this before throwing the OP out of the MARP process? Or give them a chance to do so when asked? Again, my reading of what the say is that they did everything that was asked of them.

I've some 20+ years of business experience and I find it challenging to deal with the banks on this issue, so I can only add to the advice to the OP to try and get someone to help in dealing with them.


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## Brendan Burgess (1 Mar 2014)

ang1170 said:


> As for paying off unsecured creditors, my experience is that they are extremely challenging to deal with: it took us weeks of "negotiation" and going through three levels of hierarchy to get a term loan we had rescheduled to a term that brought the repayments to an affordable level in our case (this was from one of the big two banks). It's very easy to call someone out for prioritising unsecured loans, but not so easy to do so in practice. .



I think that is the problem.  Up to now the CCMA has made it very difficult for mortgage lenders to do anything.  Borrowers were being pressurised by the unsecured creditors. 

So the OP has to stand up to the unsecured creditors and tell them that they wish to keep their home and so they will be paying their mortgage.


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## horatio1 (1 Mar 2014)

Thanks Brendan/ Ang1170 for replies.

Brendan , wasn't aware of that form so I will complete it .

 Some clarification re the unsecured debt. The only other debt we have is a CU loan for around 20k at present. Our original repayment on this was € 600 pm. (Interest plus capital). We had reduced this a couple of times and were paying around € 350 at the time of the meeting with the officer. We were coming under pressure from the Cu around the arrears. 

  During the meeting it came up about the size of the repayment on the CU loan when you consider the size of the capital compared to the mortgage loan. At that time we were paying € 600 pm to the bank and felt that was all we could afford. He said he would crunch some figures and get back to us.

   It was on that phone call that he thought it was necessary to go to the €650 pm . We agreed that the only place this could be found was to reduce the Cu loan by another € 50. At no point was it ever suggested that we should stop paying the CU loan. 

   We renegotiated with the Cu to repay the interest plus a capital amount per month of a total of € 300 pm. We forwarded the new agreement as requested to the officer. 

   Brendan , we had never been in a position where we were unable to pay our debts in full. At all times during this process we have tried to find soloutions that would keep both institutions happy. Naively ( and probably why I need advice from a F.A.) I presumed that the CU would be able to come after us for what is owed to them. The only person we had spoken to about our situation was the Danske officer and he had never suggested non payment of the CU loan.

  When you say " cut out your unsecured creditors " do you mean simply stop paying and there is nothing the CU can do about it? Of course we want to stay in our house and will do anything to do so. 

  With regard to the reasonable living guidelines, I had not looked at them as up to Friday I believed and I think it is fair to say had been led to believe that we were coming to the end of a resolution process. I can tell you that after the repayments on both loans, child care/ after school for 2 kids and normal household expenses there is nothing left. There are no holidays, no eating out etc.

  Tbh we took out a mortgage that we could just about afford, our financial situation worsened and we have tried to keep our head above water . We have contacted the bank at the first sign we began to struggle, remained in contact and never missed a payment at the agreed rate due.

   Even if we voluntarily surrender or are re-possessed I would expect there to be an outstanding debt of around 80k which we would be liable for. With both of us luckily working we won't qualify for social housing so we would have to rent paying 800 to 1000 per month which is not affordable so I suppose we are heading for insolvency. It really is a very depressing situation .


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## horatio1 (2 Mar 2014)

As requested Brendan, hope I have completed correctly

Income details
Net monthly (i.e. after tax) Income self: € 550 pm private sector
Income history: 7 years at present pay rise or reduction both unlikely
Net monthly income partner/spouse: € 400 pm private sector 
Income history:  4 years as above
Amount of child benefit received € 260
Amount of Mortgage Interest Supplement received n/a

Personal circumstances so we can calculate your reasonable living expenses 
The Insolvency Service has published Guidelines for reasonable living expenses based on the family size, whether or not you need a car for work, childcare costs and other exceptional circumstances. By filling in this information, we (or you ) can calculate what your reasonable monthly living expenses should be. 
 two adult family
Do you need a car for work or do you use public transport? car 65 km from work
Number of children 0- 2 years old: 1
Number of 3 years old children: 
Number of 4 - 11 years old: 1
Number of 12 - 18 years old:
Monthly childcare costs:  € 400
Montly spend on special circumstances: e.g. exceptional healthcare costs



Home loan  300k
Lender: danske
Amount outstanding: 285
Value of home: 200- 210k
Interest rate:  tracker 1.38%
Monthly repayment  € 1276 but on agreed rate of € 600
Amount in arrears  In dispute as the Bank are saying we came off the € 600 rate last year though the advisor told us to keep paying this amount while it was being sorted

Summary of discussions and agreements with the bank : given in other posts


Credit Union 
Amount of shares 4k
Amount of loan outstanding 20k
Monthly repayment originally € 600 now reduced to € 300
Term left 10 years


Other loans and creditors - delete those which don't apply to you


Other savings and investments 

Do you expect any lump sums in the medium term future? 
Redundancy, inheritances, injuries awards.  No


How important is retaining the family home to you?  very
Which of the following best describes your situation?



I really want to keep the family home even if it means having a large mortgage and negative equity for years to come.


Any other relevant information

What is your preferred realistic outcome? 
Paying ahat we can afford off the mortgage now and warehousing the rest until our circumstances improve


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## Brendan Burgess (3 Mar 2014)

Horatio - is that your net income per month or per week? 

As I suspected, you have an extremely cheap tracker, which you are putting at risk by going into arrears.  If your home is repossessed, do you think you will be able to rent a similar property for €890 per month? 

The interest on your mortgage, which is the true cost, is €4,000 a year or €350 per month.  It is madness to be putting it at any risk. 

You have to be tough with the CU and tell them that you are prioritising your home as you need to keep a roof over your head.   Tell them, in writing, to set the shares against the loan, to reduce the loan to €16,000. Pay the interest only on this amount which should be around €100 per month. And absolutely no more. Your priority is to keep your home and the cheap tracker.  Remind them that you have already put your home at risk by prioritising them over your home. 

Unfortunately, the Credit Unions are much rougher than the banks and will hound  you, but you have to stay firm. Respond to them in writing. Tell them that you acknowledge the debt in full and will not oppose them if they get a judgement against you, but stress in every contact, that you are now prioritising your home.


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## Bronte (3 Mar 2014)

horatio1 said:


> Net monthly (i.e. after tax) Income self: € 2383 monthly private sector
> Net monthly income partner/spouse: € 1733 monthly private sector
> Amount of child benefit received € 260
> Total monthly income: € 4376
> ...


 
That credit union loan is going to cost 36K over the 10 years. Credit unions can be negotiated with. You need to force them into this. The 4K should be subtracted from the loan amount. And then you need to agree to a repayment that allows you to pay your mortgage. Mortgage will have to be prioritised over the credit union. How do you force the CU, by telling them you are going to pay the mortgage, and I'd be pushing for zero interest going forward and a low capital amount. 

Another problem going forward is having no savings, so if the car needs replacing it could be a problem. I'm assuming the minimum amount to live on doesn't take into account this aspect of people's financials. If you are struggling down to the penny, a washing machine breaking down can cause hugh problems.

What is the interst rate on the CU loan?
What is the term of the home loan and what are your ages?
Awaiting clarity on the incomes?


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## horatio1 (3 Mar 2014)

Bronte said:


> That credit union loan is going to cost 36K over the 10 years. Credit unions can be negotiated with. You need to force them into this. The 4K should be subtracted from the loan amount. And then you need to agree to a repayment that allows you to pay your mortgage. Mortgage will have to be prioritised over the credit union. How do you force the CU,
> 
> What is the interst rate on the CU loan?
> What is the term of the home loan and what are your ages?
> Awaiting clarity on the incomes?



Thanks again for replies
Sorry guys error on my part those are net p.week incomes .
Will have to check on your other two questions bronte.

  Haven't received the call from the officer this morning but will start the above negotiations with Cu . Will be slightly embarrassing as I have a close relation on the board of the CU but better to be embarrassed with a roof over our heads.

Thanks again for all the advice and I feel a lot more hopeful than I did when I received the letter last Friday.


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## ClaireM (3 Mar 2014)

horatio1 said:


> Will be slightly embarrassing as I have a close relation on the board of the CU but better to be embarrassed with a roof over our heads.



As Credit Unions are community or workplace based this is a very common problem. Lots of people don't feel comfortable cutting their Credit Union payments and continue to pay the credit union while cutting the mortgage payment.


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## Bronte (3 Mar 2014)

horatio1 said:


> Thanks again for replies
> Sorry guys error on my part those are net p.week incomes .
> .


 
Post modified to reflect the actual monthly income of € 4376

Mortgage 1276 + childcare 400 + CU 300 = 1976 from 4376 = 2400. The minimium insolvency for a family of 2 adults and 2 kids is around 2K. But that has the infant amount included so the childcare in other words, and Horatio you stated you were below the minimum?  And you're actually only paying €600 towards the mortgage.  

Horatio what is the monthly expenditure other than the 2 loans and childcare?


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## ang1170 (3 Mar 2014)

Bronte said:


> That's a very informative post Ang1170. Very helpful, might be good in a key posts on how to deal with banks.


 
Thanks for that; I fear if I turned it into a more general piece, it would end up as a just a long rant about the banks, Central Bank and government!

I think unless you are in this position, it is very hard to appreciate what it is like, particularly if you assume that the banks are just acting in a business-like way to protect their own interest. 

I've many years’ experience in business, and I find them extremely difficult to deal with. I can only imagine what it's like if you are not used to anything like this. Far from treating customers in a business-like fashion, they are all too willing to use threats and intimidation to get the fastest "solution" possible (ironically, not necessarily in their own interests).

To get back to this particular thread, my advice to horatio would be:

1. Establish if it is viable for you to retain the house. Looking at the numbers you’ve provided, it looks like you should.

2. Make some estimate of what you can afford to pay the CU: ideally this will be at least the interest and some capital. Make a proposal to them, based on Brendan’s suggestion of offsetting shares against the amount owed, and extending the term. Point out that all the positive points you’ve made here: you’ve always paid them on time, you want to pay them in full and your proposal would do that, you have to prioritise secured loans etc. etc. Point out what will happen if they don’t accept: you’ve little control over the outcome, but they risk ending up with nothing.

3. If they reject, ask them to make an alternative proposal. 

4. Repeat steps 2 and 3 until you reach agreement. If you can't, I would just start paying them what you can afford, telling them that this is what you are doing. I don't know what would happen in that circumstance: maybe others could comment.

5. Repeat steps 2 to 4 with Danske. My starting point would be the offer they made to you on the phone (if you can afford it).

I’d keep repeating to Danske the fact you’ve done all that’s been asked, you cannot meet the original terms due to circumstances beyond your control, you’re trying to reach agreement, you will not surrender your home when you believe an equitable arrangement is possible. If they persist in asking for this, ask them to justify their position (the Central Bank code of conduct obliges banks to document why they believe a proposed solution is/is not sustainable). 

Keep copies of all correspondence. Try and avoid phone calls: if any are made, summarise them in writing immediately afterwards, and send these written notes to the bank, stating that it is your record of the call, and that unless you hear to the contrary within five working days you take it that they agree with it as an accurate record.

As I mentioned before, write all correspondence with an eye to how it will read to some third party who may have to decide the merits of the case at some later point (i.e. polite, clear, reasonable, repeating the positives such as willing to co-operate etc. etc.).

Best of luck with this!


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## Brendan Burgess (4 Mar 2014)

I have moved Ang's general post and some follow up comments here: 

How to negotiate with banks on your mortgage arrears


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## horatio1 (5 Mar 2014)

Thanks to all who have contributed to the thread. I will update when I have reached an agreement with the bank.


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