# Is it possible to have church marriage and not civil marriage?



## catherined (1 Aug 2008)

Hey there, I was wondering if anyone knew if it was possible to have a church marriage and not a civil one, meaning you'd be married in eyes of church but not civil so not legally recognised.  Have insurance reasons why I don't want legal wedding but do want to be hitched to my man.  What u think?


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## DavyJones (1 Aug 2008)

I don't know but i'd say not.  Why don't you have a blessing?


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## eileen alana (1 Aug 2008)

It dosen't matter whether you get married in a registry office or in a church, you have to legally sign the registry in both cases.   

Did you really think that by marrying in a church ceremony you wouldn't be married in the eyes of the State........?


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## DavyJones (1 Aug 2008)

eileen alana said:


> It dosen't matter whether you get married in a registry office or in a church, you have to legally sign the registry in both cases.
> 
> Did you really think that by marrying in a church ceremony you wouldn't be married in the eyes of the State........?



I think the OP was asking if you can have the church cermoney and not to sign the registry, so in practice being married in the eyes of God and not the state.
But I may be wrong.


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## jhegarty (1 Aug 2008)

ask a priest ?


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## catherined (1 Aug 2008)

Hey DavyJones, you are quite right, dont want it legal, just want the blessing I suppose...too much legal stuff if we go down state recognised route.  I would like the day out, want to be hitched but don't want the legal side of things...just don't know anyone who's ever done this or even if I can get the church "on side" with the idea?  Maybe I have to go ask to find out.  I've googled but nothing came up, maybe my search words weren't great...


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## catherined (1 Aug 2008)

Actually did you know that pre-nups are not legal in this country, as unromantic as they are...if a couple get together with a past (baggage), it would sometimes be of great benefit to have it.  The laws need to change in this country around marriage.

Yeap think I'll go talk to the priest...it's been a while I can tell you.  Thanks for your replies, greatly appreciated.


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## miselemeas (1 Aug 2008)

Excerpt from citizensinformation.ie which may be of assistance:
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/c...nships/getting-married/getting_married_abroad
​ 
I_f you or your partner are an Irish citizen(s) and are thinking of getting married outside of Ireland, you should realise that the legal validity of your marriage is governed, in part, by the laws of the country in which you marry. In most, if not all cases, the legal formalities abroad are very different to those in Ireland. For example, a church marriage abroad is usually a purely religious ceremony __with no legal effect. Because it is not recognised in law in the country in which it takes place, it cannot be regarded as a legal marriage in Ireland. This is the case even though a marriage in the same church or denomination in Ireland can be legally binding.

_Looks as though you might be having a holiday abroad thrown in!  Good luck.​


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## DavyJones (1 Aug 2008)

catherined said:


> Actually did you know that pre-nups are not legal in this country, as unromantic as they are...if a couple get together with a past (baggage), it would sometimes be of great benefit to have it.  The laws need to change in this country around marriage.
> 
> Yeap think I'll go talk to the priest...it's been a while I can tell you.  Thanks for your replies, greatly appreciated.




Your dead right, keep all your money for yourself . I can't see any reasonable priest refusing to give your realationship a blessing. although the wording of the cermony will probably be different.


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## catherined (1 Aug 2008)

Loving the "Excerpt from citizensinformation.ie" thanks, maybe a holiday is on the cards!

As for mones for myself...could be a case of keep my debt away from someone else!?  I believe once you get married it's all tied up together...see maybe I could start a trend?!


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## rmelly (1 Aug 2008)

catherined said:


> Hey DavyJones, you are quite right, dont want it legal, just want the blessing I suppose...too much legal stuff if we go down state recognised route. I would like the day out, want to be hitched but don't want the legal side of things...just don't know anyone who's ever done this or even if I can get the church "on side" with the idea? Maybe I have to go ask to find out. I've googled but nothing came up, maybe my search words weren't great...


 
Is this thread a joke or are you being serious?


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## eileen alana (1 Aug 2008)

I was thinking the same thing, its quite ridiculous. It's a bit like having the icing without the cake.


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## terrysgirl33 (1 Aug 2008)

I would have thought that going through the whole trappings of marriage without getting married would constitute fraud?  What is it about the legal route that you object to?  Historicly marriage was about property and money, and only incidentaly about romantic love, but the legal side was/is an integral part of this!  What does your partner think about this?

On another note, is it likely that you will get a priest to give you a blessing, so that you are not married and can continue to 'live in sin'?  A kind of pretend wedding?


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## Ash 22 (1 Aug 2008)

You can't have your cake and eat it!


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## TreeTiger (1 Aug 2008)

Reminds me of the recent Sharon Collins story  
Herself and PJ Howard had a public do in 2005 celebrating their "marriage" after attending a church in Italy to pledge themselves as a couple.  I believe they referred to each other as husband and wife but he, at least, confirmed in writing to his solicitor that they were not married.


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## Brianne (1 Aug 2008)

I may be wrong in this but I think that in pre divorce Ireland , if one was granted a church annulment, then in the eyes of the church , one was free to marry again in the Catholic church even though one was still married in the eyes of the state provided there were no impediments to further church marriage laid down in the terms of the annulment.However, I very much doubt if the Catholic church would facilitate you in what you propose.


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## ClubMan (1 Aug 2008)

Brianne said:


> I may be wrong in this but I think that in pre divorce Ireland , if one was granted a church annulment, then in the eyes of the church , one was free to marry again in the Catholic church even though one was still married in the eyes of the state


Correct as far as I know. Unless the couple also went for a state annulment. 


> However, I very much doubt if the Catholic church would facilitate you in what you propose.


I would be surprised too. (The original poster never explicitly said _Catholic Church _by the way).


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## ClubMan (1 Aug 2008)

catherined said:


> I don't want legal wedding but do want to be hitched to my man.  What u think?





catherined said:


> dont want it legal, just want the blessing I suppose...too much legal stuff if we go down state recognised route.  I would like the day out, want to be hitched but don't want the legal side of things...


This makes very little sense to me. Marriage is basically a contract but you seem to be looking for some sort of gentleman's agreement?


catherined said:


> Yeap think I'll go talk to the priest...it's been a while I can tell you.


If you are not even a regular observer of your (?) faith then I doubt that the clergy will entertain this sort of thing. And maybe not even if you are!


rmelly said:


> Is this thread a joke or are you being serious?





eileen alana said:


> I was thinking the same thing, its quite ridiculous.


I would not disagree with you two.


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## Diziet (1 Aug 2008)

Remember that it is quite possible to marry but keep your financial affairs completely separate, and that includes debts. If this is the reason, then you need advice on the finances, not some hair brained scheme of being half married.


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## WaterSprite (1 Aug 2008)

Diziet said:


> Remember that it is quite possible to marry but keep your financial affairs completely separate, and that includes debts. If this is the reason, then you need advice on the finances, not some hair brained scheme of being half married.



I agree that this seems to be the OP's prime motivator (OP, perhaps you could confirm?)  

Sprite


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## mathepac (1 Aug 2008)

Brianne said:


> ... I think that in pre divorce Ireland , if one was granted a church annulment, then in the eyes of the church , one was free to marry again in the Catholic church ..


Not necessarily, and not necessarily in post-divorce Ireland.

The church lawyers might decide as a result of their investigations, having spoken to witnesses and taken testimony, that either or both parties are unsuited to or incapable of entering into a marriage contract.


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## Ann1 (2 Aug 2008)

Catherined , the simple answer to your question is  No.  My daughter recently started planning her wedding and the priest (catholic) gave her all the required civil forms she had to fill out . He explained  to her that the church could not marry anyone until they received confirmation from the state that the couple was in fact free to marry. Gone are the days when the local priest (or minister)  read the  marriage  banns  at  Sunday  mass


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## Brianne (2 Aug 2008)

Brianne said:


> I may be wrong in this but I think that in pre divorce Ireland , if one was granted a church annulment, then in the eyes of the church , one was free to marry again in the Catholic church even though one was still married in the eyes of the state provided there were no impediments to further church marriage laid down in the terms of the annulment.However, I very much doubt if the Catholic church would facilitate you in what you propose.



 Mathepac,my post states 'provided there were no impediments to further church marriage etc.

Is OP having a laugh? Does she think of the significance of a church wedding or is just looking for a day out? A practising catholic would think that the church wedding is the one of significance, or has she been going to too many bridal fairs? And if she is not a practising catholic , well is she just looking to have a fancy dress event in the right setting?
Maybe, she should try out a rabbi or a iman while she's at it.


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## ney001 (2 Aug 2008)

If OP just wants the day out and wants friends etc to attend her 'wedding' why not have a fake wedding - she'll get her day out, her friends think she's married, nobody need know anything different except for bride and groom.  Obviously you wouldn't be able to do this in a church but how about hiring a venue and an actor to carry out a fake 'civil ceremony'.  Depends how much you want to have the wedding day or appear to be married.


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## rmelly (2 Aug 2008)

ney001 said:


> If OP just wants the day out and wants friends etc to attend her 'wedding' why not have a fake wedding - she'll get her day out, her friends think she's married, nobody need know anything different except for bride and groom. Obviously you wouldn't be able to do this in a church but how about hiring a venue and an actor to carry out a fake 'civil ceremony'. Depends how much you want to have the wedding day or appear to be married.


 
Don't be putting more ideas in her head...


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## ney001 (2 Aug 2008)

rmelly said:


> Don't be putting more ideas in her head...



Feck it what harm would she be doing? - seems to be she just want's to have a big day and wear a frock - live and let live!


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## di74 (3 Aug 2008)

Don't get this - don't want to be legally hitched but want a wedding.... you say it's been a while since you've seen a priest yet still want to go through a church wedding????
Just throw a big party if that's what you're after....


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## catherined (3 Aug 2008)

Surprised by feedback.  does it seem that silly to do that, why do people get married at all sure...isn't the main reason to show that you are committed to the other person, off the market, in love and that.  

Maybe, and I don't know, but most of you are singles or married without history, there are little people in the picture on both sides and we live separately, so do the day to day living separately.  we can do the whole hog thing when they grow up a bit and then we can be selfish, maybe in 10 years we could commit, the full monty, and all will be okay.  

Why get married now?  He is my bit of fluff and I wants him and wouldn't mind the show of commitment sooner than later.  That's not a silly idea to me.  It's all we can give each other at the moment.


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## catherined (3 Aug 2008)

actually you know, maybe a mock wedding is the way to go...a fake wedding, excellent idea...thanks guys....must google that.


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## ney001 (4 Aug 2008)

catherined said:


> actually you know, maybe a mock wedding is the way to go...a fake wedding, excellent idea...thanks guys....must google that.



More power to you, best of luck!


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## ClubMan (4 Aug 2008)

Just make sure the groom also knows that it's a sham.


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## eileen alana (4 Aug 2008)

I doubt if he is as scattered as his bride to be..


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## Bronte (5 Aug 2008)

Strange as it seems wasn't there a case about 10 years ago when a load of Irish people got married in Lourdes and were not married 'civily' and they had to bring in legislation to rectify it as they were not legally married. 

OP be aware that if you do not marry legally neither of you have legal rights or more importantly as you specifically mention this you are not legally committed to each other.  You may be married in the eyes of the Church but that's no good to you here on earth.   Why don't you and he go to Vegas, get married in secret and keep it a secret for 10 years.


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## jhegarty (5 Aug 2008)

Bronte said:


> OP be aware that if you do not marry legally neither of you have legal rights or more importantly as you specifically mention this you are not legally committed to each other.  You may be married in the eyes of the Church but that's no good to you here on earth.   Why don't you and he go to Vegas, get married in secret and keep it a secret for 10 years.




I though that was the whole point of what the op wanted


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## truthseeker (5 Aug 2008)

catherined said:


> Surprised by feedback. does it seem that silly to do that, why do people get married at all sure...isn't the main reason to show that you are committed to the other person, off the market, in love and that.


 
Thats a good question - why DO people get married? I thought it was about making a legally binding committment to each other - what do other people think?



catherined said:


> Maybe, and I don't know, but most of you are singles or married without history, there are little people in the picture on both sides and we live separately, so do the day to day living separately. we can do the whole hog thing when they grow up a bit and then we can be selfish, maybe in 10 years we could commit, the full monty, and all will be okay.


 
If you love each other and wish to be married why not just do it and join both households? 



catherined said:


> Why get married now? He is my bit of fluff and I wants him and wouldn't mind the show of commitment sooner than later. That's not a silly idea to me. It's all we can give each other at the moment.


 
If all you are after is a committment ceremony you could ask respected family members and friends to officiate at a ceremony for you two, stating the reasons you want to be together and good wishes etc.... A sort of series of blessings from close friends and family, call on people to say a few words, followed up by a ring exchange ceremony or something like that?

I mean I think a committment ceremony is a nice idea but I dont understand what the reasons are for not just getting married if you love each other and want to be together.

I also dont really get the idea of a fake wedding - why would you want people to think you are married if youre not really? Maybe Im missing something.


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## ney001 (5 Aug 2008)

truthseeker said:


> Thats a good question - why DO people get married? I thought it was about making a legally binding committment to each other - what do other people think?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




My reading of this is that OP wants her day out that's all - obviously doesn't want the legal/financial commitment but wants to be seen as being married in her friends eyes etc.  Maybe I'm wrong here but I think she just wants to dress up for the day, feel special blah blah blah.  I am assuming that she and boyfriend feel the same i.e don't want actual marriage - but they want their friends to think they are married??


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## csirl (5 Aug 2008)

I know of 2 couples who have done this - one for similar reasons to the OP, the other because one of the pair had been legally married (but not in church) before and was not yet divorced. In the case of the couple where one was not yet divorced (the "husband") most of the brides family and friends were and still are unaware that the wedding was church only with no civil component - bride is one of these types with airs and graces who would not like to admit to marrying someone who was married before and wanted to give her family & friends the impression that she is married.

The important thing to remember is that a church marriage is not a legal marriage. The couple cannot tick the "married" box in any state forms, claim tax credits, inheritance or any of the other rights of legally married people. 

Though in most cases, Church weddings an Civil weddings are done simultaneously at the same venue, they are not the same. The State only recognises the Civil component. 



> Strange as it seems wasn't there a case about 10 years ago when a load of Irish people got married in Lourdes and were not married 'civily' and they had to bring in legislation to rectify it as they were not legally married.


 
France is one of a number of countries where you are not allowed have a simultaneous Civil and Church wedding. Couples in France have to go to the Registry Office for a separate ceremony if they want the marriage legally recognised. Something all couple marrying abroad have to watch out for - just because you arrange a priest and church and sign some fancy forms in a foreign language, it does not mean that you are legally married - this is the reason why most get married in a quiet civil ceremony in Ireland before departing.


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## ciars (5 Aug 2008)

miselemeas said:


> Excerpt from citizensinformation.ie which may be of assistance:​
> 
> http://www.citizensinformation.ie/c...nships/getting-married/getting_married_abroad​
> 
> ...


 

This relates to if the Civil and Church part of the wedding is abroad. As with the majority of people would have a civil ceremony in their home country to be legally bound under the law of that country. 

We had our civil ceremony here in Ireland and church ceremony in Italy. The Bishop of the town in Italy needed proof of a civil ceremony. Aparently this is also quite common.


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## csirl (5 Aug 2008)

I predict that in c.50 years time there will be a load of inheritance and probate cases involving spouses and children of Irish people who "married" abroad but were unaware that church weddings abroad have no legal standing and that they or their parents were not legally married.


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## miselemeas (5 Aug 2008)

Bishop Pat Buckley could be your man!

http://www.bishoppatbuckley.co.uk/


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## Thrifty1 (5 Aug 2008)

csirl said:


> I predict that in c.50 years time there will be a load of inheritance and probate cases involving spouses and children of Irish people who "married" abroad but were unaware that church weddings abroad have no legal standing and that they or their parents were not legally married.


 
Some do, i got married in church in Dubrovnik, we signed the registry at the civil offices there the day before and our marrige is valid here too.


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## truthseeker (5 Aug 2008)

csirl said:


> I predict that in c.50 years time there will be a load of inheritance and probate cases involving spouses and children of Irish people who "married" abroad but were unaware that church weddings abroad have no legal standing and that they or their parents were not legally married.



Well it depends where you get married abroad, some predominantly catholic country will have the civil ceremony tied up with the religious ceremony, for countries that dont the couple usually do the registry office bit a couple of days before the church bit. Most people researching a wedding abroad would be aware of this.


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## Paulone (6 Aug 2008)

Agree with all the posters who ask why the OP wants to be able to describe herself as 'married' yet not do it legally.

Got married myself recently and the true nature of what it means is made quite clear - you contract a marriage and, totally aside from the romantic thing of being in a committed relationship (which I'm sure is the OP's situation), the marriage contract changes your legal status with regard to a variety of things - i.e. next of kin, inheritance, rights surrounding any children, all of which is an official recognition of the permanence you both intend to have about being together.

I didn't need a piece of paper to prove my emotional commitment to my partner and family, but we thought that it was better for all involved to change our status in a way we thought would better protect eachother and the children.

The GROIreland website explains all the new rules about the event called marriage in this country and, knowing the position of most churches in these things, I doubt they would entertain someone trying to describe what is essentially an unofficial commitment as a 'marriage'.

The OP probably has her own reasons why she doesn't want to change her legal status and it sounds like she wants to organise a religious commitment ceremony. Good luck finding a priest to do that, but there may be members of more obscure churches or individuals who would.


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