# 20 cigarettes up 50cent.



## Brendan Burgess

cccc


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## Concrete

I think this should be 50 cent, not 20 cent.


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## Brendan Burgess

Thanks. Corrected


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## Steven Barrett

€15 for a packet of cigarettes. I started smoking around 1992 and they were £2 for 20. That's an inflation rate of 6.3% over that 29 year period. Kind of the expected return of a pension


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## PebbleBeach2020

bought a carton of smokes in EU airport this week flying home. 60 euro, so 6 euro a box compared to the 15 euro a box here.


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## Sue Ellen

I was in total shock when he mentioned €15 for a packet of cigarettes, I had thought they were €12 at the moment and that was bad enough.    I just cannot understand why anyone is still smoking when they are so expensive


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## Sunny

Sue Ellen said:


> I was in total shock when he mentioned €15 for a packet of cigarettes, I had thought they were €12 at the moment and that was bad enough.    I just cannot understand why anyone is still smoking when they are so expensive



I would be very surprised if the numbers of people smoking correlates in anyway to the number of cigarettes sold in Irish retail outlets so at this stage, not sure price rises have any impact


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## noproblem

In some ways I feel sorry for smokers. I don't smoke anymore, was a heavy smoker for the best part of 35+ years and they're not something that someone can give up easily. 

The goverments over the years have really targeted them for massive hikes and they're now a crazy price. I live in a small village in the west of Ireland and not many buy fags in the shops, because they can be bought for less than half price off black market sellers who are all over the place. If you're a smoker you'll find them easily enough. 

I'm well aware of the danger cigarettes pose for people and the long term dangers involved. Thing that gets me though with the smokes, is that no one goes home after smoking too many of them and wrecks the house, beats up kids and spouses and causes mayhem. However, a lot of people do the above after drinking too much, yet there's no increase on alcohol at all. Does the tax on cigs just show that it's a tax collection exercise and not a health prevention one? Why not tax the daylights out of drink? It causes absolutely terrible problems in this country, far, far, worse than any cigarette will ever do. Just a thought.


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## gianni

Sunny said:


> I would be very surprised if the numbers of people smoking correlates in anyway to the number of cigarettes sold in Irish retail outlets so at this stage, not sure price rises have any impact


A tobacco survey from 2019...commissioned by Revenue and the National Tobacco Control Office (never heard of it)...state:

15% of cigarette packets are illegal 
9% are legal but non Irish duty paid 

Suggests that 3/4 packs have duty paid on them in Ireland.


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## Sunny

gianni said:


> A tobacco survey from 2019...commissioned by Revenue and the National Tobacco Control Office (never heard of it)...state:
> 
> 15% of cigarette packets are illegal
> 9% are legal but non Irish duty paid
> 
> Suggests that 3/4 packs have duty paid on them in Ireland.



I would think both numbers but especially the 9% are completely underestimated.


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## Pinoy adventure

Sunny said:


> I would be very surprised if the numbers of people smoking correlates in anyway to the number of cigarettes sold in Irish retail outlets so at this stage, not sure price rises have any impact



I’d have too agree.the illegal trade of cigarettes is booming in Ireland and I can only imagine what money is being made on them.


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## Paul O Mahoney

Sue Ellen said:


> I was in total shock when he mentioned €15 for a packet of cigarettes, I had thought they were €12 at the moment and that was bad enough.    I just cannot understand why anyone is still smoking when they are so expensive


Addiction and they do help our type,  smoke filled rooms , and writing with wine


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## deanpark

Steven Barrett said:


> €15 for a packet of cigarettes. I started smoking around 1992 and they were £2 for 20. That's an inflation rate of 6.3% over that 29 year period. Kind of the expected return of a pension


I used to get them duty free for about £10 stg for a carton of 200 in the mid to late 90s. I think they were c.£12 when european duty free ended in 1999(?). I quit in 2001 as they were too pricey!!


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## Paul O Mahoney

deanpark said:


> I used to get them duty free for about £10 stg for a carton of 200 in the mid to late 90s. I think they were c.£12 when european duty free ended in 1999(?). I quit in 2001 as they were too pricey!!


That had to be outside the EU , because all duty free died in the early 90s was gone due to Maastricht 1....and living and working in the UK in mid 90s , I can't recall £10 for 200, they were £2 for 10


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## Leper

Regarding fags, for years all our Finance minister has done is increase the take from ciggies bought abroad hence enhancing their coffers at the expense of ours.


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## deanpark

Paul O Mahoney said:


> That had to be outside the EU , because all duty free died in the early 90s was gone due to Maastricht 1....and living and working in the UK in mid 90s , I can't recall £10 for 200, they were £2 for





Paul O Mahoney said:


> That had to be outside the EU , because all duty free died in the early 90s was gone due to Maastricht 1....and living and working in the UK in mid 90s , I can't recall £10 for 200, they were £2 for 10


Duty free until 1999 as I said....


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## NoRegretsCoyote

Sunny said:


> I would think both numbers but especially the 9% are completely underestimated.


I knew a guy who got paid to go around pubs and collect empty cigarette boxes from Temple Bar on a Saturday night. They were doing some kind of analysis of the origin and whether they had the excise stickers.

You can also cross-reference survey data about smoking rates with excise duty paid.


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## Purple

Sue Ellen said:


> I just cannot understand why anyone is still smoking when they are so expensive


It turns out that it's addictive. Who knew!


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## silverfox239

Wow thats a crazy price for a box of 20


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## Steven Barrett

I hope this turns younger people off starting in the first place. They just look at the price and stigma associated with smoking and don't ever start. 



gianni said:


> A tobacco survey from 2019...commissioned by Revenue and the National Tobacco Control Office (never heard of it)...state:
> 
> 15% of cigarette packets are illegal
> 9% are legal but non Irish duty paid
> 
> Suggests that 3/4 packs have duty paid on them in Ireland.


 Are these normal cigarettes with no duty paid on them or counterfeit ones? I could never understand people smoking counterfeit cigarettes just because they are cheap. Cigarettes are full of poisons as it is. Imagine what else you are putting in your body with counterfeit ones?! You might as well drink lead paint.


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## Sunny

Steven Barrett said:


> I hope this turns younger people off starting in the first place. They just look at the price and stigma associated with smoking and don't ever start.
> 
> 
> Are these normal cigarettes with no duty paid on them or counterfeit ones? I could never understand people smoking counterfeit cigarettes just because they are cheap. Cigarettes are full of poisons as it is. Imagine what else you are putting in your body with counterfeit ones?! You might as well drink lead paint.



True but then people don't seem to fear sticking a pill in their mouth and snorting powder that comes from the local reputable drug dealer..!


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## Steven Barrett

Sunny said:


> True but then people don't seem to fear sticking a pill in their mouth and snorting powder that comes from the local reputable drug dealer..!


There's no choice in that matter


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## Leper

Nice sentiment Steven, but some people think they look chic/cool with a cigarette in their hand. Others have a fag instead of eating in the belief that smoking keeps them looking good. When all is said and done it's all about appearance.

Yourself, Purple, me, and any other contributor here will have no effect of trying to get people kicking the habit or indeed starting I regret to say.

After all is said and done there's always a lot more said than done. The price of fags doesn't matter because they can get them at cheap prices from anybody travelling abroad.


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## Sunny

Steven Barrett said:


> There's no choice in that matter



Well there is. Don't take them. Ecstasy for example has questionable addictive attributes so in the majority of cases, it is someone choosing to take a pill of unknown origin rather than someone needing to feed an addiction. People will take risks. If you offer them a packet of 20 cigarettes from your local shop at €15 a pop or the same 'box' at €8 from a stranger behind some stall, they will nearly always choose the €8 option. Make drugs legal and offer them safe alternatives at twice the price of sourcing them in the black market, they will go for the black market source. 

I think there is a real sense of denial around the issue of illegal cigarettes. Just look at recent custom finds. Like narcotics, these reflect a tiny % of what makes it in to the market and they are going somewhere. Even the idea that doing a survey involving going around picking up cigarette boxes to identify illegally sourced tobacco shows this. Over 30% of smokers now use roll your own cigarettes so they don't leave empty boxes lying around. I know smokers who might buy one box in a shop when they are caught short but will source another 5 boxes by other means. 

By the way, I have no issue with raising the price. I just don't think the price in anyway influences smoking levels anymore. The smoking ban which was a health policy did more for smoking in this Country than any taxation policy ever did or has since.


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## Purple

Fatness kills more people than smoking and is far more costly to the State to treat. 
I've no problem increasing the price of cigarettes but where are the fat taxes?


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## vandriver

Sugar tax?


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## Purple

vandriver said:


> Sugar tax?


16-26 cent per litre. Hardly punitive.


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## odyssey06

Purple said:


> Fatness kills more people than smoking and is far more costly to the State to treat.
> I've no problem increasing the price of cigarettes but where are the fat taxes?


Of course an early death is a personal tragedy.

But viewed solely through the cold equation of the cost, it also means the State doesn't have to pay out pension costs, nursing home care, and all the other costs that hit 80 somethings for example. Thin people who don't smoke are what'll bankrupt the social security system in the long run!


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## LS400

In my Business, of 12 Staff, 6 Smoke, none of them buy cigs from the shop..

When I gave up the fags, a packet of 20 cost €8.50. I gave them up then because they were so expensive. It was always a Packet of fags and bar of chocolate every morning best part of a tenner there abouts.

The one thing to keep me off the fags, was the build up of €70 every week in a biscuit tin, taped around so as not be tempted to open up. The greatest pleasure i got, was to empty that out when full, with kids excitedly counting out the spoils. This i tell them is what would have been handed over to the shopkeeper..

We've been to the far east, America and many short breaks on this tin, which to this day, I continue to donate.


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## PebbleBeach2020

LS400 said:


> In my Business, of 12 Staff, 6 Smoke, none of them buy cigs from the shop..
> 
> When I gave up the fags, a packet of 20 cost €8.50. I gave them up then because they were so expensive. It was always a Packet of fags and bar of chocolate every morning best part of a tenner there abouts.
> 
> The one thing to keep me off the fags, was the build up of €70 every week in a biscuit tin, taped around so as not be tempted to open up. The greatest pleasure i got, was to empty that out when full, with kids excitedly counting out the spoils. This i tell them is what would have been handed over to the shopkeeper..
> 
> We've been to the far east, America and many short breaks on this tin, which to this day, I continue to donate.





LS400 said:


> In my Business, of 12 Staff, 6 Smoke, none of them buy cigs from the shop..
> 
> When I gave up the fags, a packet of 20 cost €8.50. I gave them up then because they were so expensive. It was always a Packet of fags and bar of chocolate every morning best part of a tenner there abouts.
> 
> The one thing to keep me off the fags, was the build up of €70 every week in a biscuit tin, taped around so as not be tempted to open up. The greatest pleasure i got, was to empty that out when full, with kids excitedly counting out the spoils. This i tell them is what would have been handed over to the shopkeeper..
> 
> We've been to the far east, America and many short breaks on this tin, which to this day, I continue to donate.


fair play, what a great thing to do.


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## Purple

odyssey06 said:


> Of course an early death is a personal tragedy.
> 
> But viewed solely through the cold equation of the cost, it also means the State doesn't have to pay out pension costs, nursing home care, and all the other costs that hit 80 somethings for example. Thin people who don't smoke are what'll bankrupt the social security system in the long run!


I agree. Smokers pay lots of tax and then die younger.
Fat people live longer and their health conditions are often chronic rather than fatal. They cost the state a fortune. Upwards of €2 billion and rising.


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## Steven Barrett

Purple said:


> Fatness kills more people than smoking and is far more costly to the State to treat.
> I've no problem increasing the price of cigarettes but where are the fat taxes?


There's nothing wrong with having a takeaway or a bar of chocolate. As long as it is in moderation. So who is to going to keep count of the amount of takeaways that someone has? Then you throw in the lobbying that organisations such as McDonalds and Dominoes will carry out on the govt.


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## SparkRite

Leper said:


> Yourself, Purple, me, and any other contributor here will have no effect of trying to get people kicking the habit or indeed starting I regret to say.


Strongly disagree with this. As a parent I think my actions and guidance, during their formative years, had _at the very least some effect_ on their choices.



Sunny said:


> Over 30% of smokers now use roll your own cigarettes so they don't leave empty boxes lying around.





Sunny said:


> The smoking ban which was a health policy did more for smoking in this Country than any taxation policy ever did or has since.





Purple said:


> Fatness kills more people than smoking and is far more costly to the State to treat.





odyssey06 said:


> Thin people who don't smoke are what'll bankrupt the social security system in the long run!





Purple said:


> Fat people live longer and their health conditions are often chronic rather than fatal. They cost the state a fortune. Upwards of €2 billion and rising.


Would love to read some of the reports that led to the above statements.


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## deanpark

LS400 said:


> In my Business, of 12 Staff, 6 Smoke, none of them buy cigs from the shop..
> 
> When I gave up the fags, a packet of 20 cost €8.50. I gave them up then because they were so expensive. It was always a Packet of fags and bar of chocolate every morning best part of a tenner there abouts.
> 
> The one thing to keep me off the fags, was the build up of €70 every week in a biscuit tin, taped around so as not be tempted to open up. The greatest pleasure i got, was to empty that out when full, with kids excitedly counting out the spoils. This i tell them is what would have been handed over to the shopkeeper..
> 
> We've been to the far east, America and many short breaks on this tin, which to this day, I continue to donate.


I used Allen Carr's book 'Easy Way to Stop Smoking' which was amazing - what a great thing to have done in 2001 and its saved me 20 years of grief, coughs, smelly clothes/ breath and expense.


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## Purple

SparkRite said:


> Would love to read some of the reports that led to the above statements.


Here's one and we are amongst the fattest in Europe.
I was wrong about the cost, it's actually €4.3 billion.


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## Sunny

SparkRite said:


> Would love to read some of the reports that led to the above statements.



Here is another one



			https://www.hse.ie/eng/about/who/tobaccocontrol/research/half-year-update-2021.pdf


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## SparkRite

Purple said:


> Here's one and we are amongst the fattest in Europe.


Maybe I missed it, but I did not see any mention of Ireland.


Purple said:


> I was wrong about the cost, it's actually €4.3 billion.


Not 'actually, ' it was purely a projected figure made 8 years ago.


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## Leper

After every Budget we all come on here pontificating that our Smokers deserve all the  taxes they are getting. It's the same old arguments and yet it appears smoking is alive and well and there's no chance of the habit every being wiped out. I never smoked even one cigarette and never had I the desire to do so. Right! Ol' Lep is one of the lucky ones. People who are overweight somehow get dragged into the argument along with those who love their soft drinks, chocolate and sweets.

Realistically, does anybody here believe that we'll see a day when nobody lights up a cigarette? If you do, when do you think it'll happen?


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## Purple

SparkRite said:


> Maybe I missed it, but I did not see any mention of Ireland.
> 
> Not 'actually, ' it was purely a projected figure made 8 years ago.


The was a study carried out by UCC 3 years ago that estimated the cost at €4.6 billion so yes, the €4.3 billion was wrong. I stand corrected. 
I know that Cork people in general can't be trusted but these are academics. There may even be a few intellectuals involved.


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## Purple

Leper said:


> People who are overweight somehow get dragged into the argument


And that's no easy task!


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## SparkRite

Sunny said:


> Here is another one
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.hse.ie/eng/about/who/tobaccocontrol/research/half-year-update-2021.pdf


Interesting that, nice to see the downward trend, pity it's such a small survey/poll.


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## Purple

SparkRite said:


> Interesting that, nice to see the downward trend, pity it's such a small survey/poll.


Yes, rates of smoking are declining steadily in this country. Good news. 
All the more a reason to focus on obesity rates, which are increasing.


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## SparkRite

Leper said:


> Realistically, does anybody here believe that we'll see a day when nobody lights up a cigarette?


No, smoking, in many shapes, has been around since the year dot (whenever that was).
So I reckon no members of AAM will be around if/when it ever stops.


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## Purple

SparkRite said:


> No, smoking, in many shapes, has been around since the year dot (whenever that was).
> So I reckon no members of AAM will be around if/when it ever stops.


It is interesting that 50 years ago in general rich people were fat and smoked while the poor were thin and didn't smoke. Now it's the other way around.


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## Pinoy adventure

Did the tax on alcohol go up too ??


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## Purple

Pinoy adventure said:


> Did the tax on alcohol go up too ??


No.


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## SparkRite

Purple said:


> The was a study carried out by UCC 3 years ago that estimated the cost at €4.6 billion


That's a 'total lifetime cost', which is what exactly?


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## Purple

SparkRite said:


> That's a 'total lifetime cost', which is what exactly?


You are right, the annual cost is €1.13 billion but it's increasing at a staggering rate (no pun intended). The rate of childhood obesity here is very high and fat kids almost always grow into fat adults.


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## SparkRite

Purple said:


> It is interesting that 50 years ago in general rich people were fat and smoked while the poor were thin and didn't smoke. Now it's the other way around.


Yep, but the rich non-smoking 50 year olds are even fatter and the thin smokers are that way because they can't afford grub.


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## Purple

SparkRite said:


> Yep, but the rich non-smoking 50 year olds are even fatter and the thin smokers are that way because they can't afford grub.


I do my shopping in Dunnes near Finglas (Charlestown) or Tesco in Finglas and it really is shocking to see people waddling around the shop with a trolley full of pizzas and processed food and, in many cases, no vegetables at all. I don't know how they can afford it and I really don't know how that nonsense it's cheaper to eat processed food than fresh food gets any traction.


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## SparkRite

Purple said:


> You are right, the annual cost is €1.13 billion but it's increasing at a staggering rate (no pun intended). The rate of childhood obesity here is very high and fat kids almost always grow into fat adults.



There is no doubt that as a country our diet leaves a lot to be desired and obesity is on the increase. 
But, I don't understand what is meant by :-


> New _safe_food funded research into the cost of childhood overweight and obesity on the island of Ireland* has estimated the total lifetime cost to be *€7.2billion (€4.6 billion in the Republic Of Ireland and £2.1 billion in Northern Ireland).


 BTW where did you get the €1.13 billion from, please?


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## SparkRite

Purple said:


> and it really is shocking to see people waddling around the shop with a trolley full of pizzas and processed food and, in many cases, no vegetables at all.........


Laziness is my guess.


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## Purple

SparkRite said:


> But, I don't understand what is meant by :-


I suppose from the time they are a chubby cheeked baby to when they waddle off this mortal coil. 



SparkRite said:


> BTW where did you get the €1.13 billion from, please?


Here


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## Purple

SparkRite said:


> Laziness is my guess.


You're not allowed to say that. It's because they are from a socially deprived area. They are not deprived of takeaway's all the same.


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## SparkRite

Purple said:


> Here



A fair bit of estimation and guesstimation in that small doc.
So the only direct cost to the state in healthcare per anum is €398million and the rest is indirect € pick,a, figure. They chose €728 million.

Either way it reads a lot better than €4.6 billion ( total lifetime cost ? )


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## Purple

SparkRite said:


> A fair bit of estimation and guesstimation in that small doc.
> So the only direct cost to the state in healthcare per anum is €398million and the rest is indirect € pick,a, figure. They chose €728 million.
> 
> Either way it reads a lot better than €4.6 billion ( total lifetime cost ? )


This suggests that it was €1.1 billion in 2012 but that's a total cost to the country. The problem's got bigger since then.


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## Kimmagegirl

I know someone who whinges and whines because they can't afford a holiday in the sun.....but smokes 20+ cigarettes a day. About €5500 a year in cost. Her daughter would love to go to University but the mother has no money to send her.


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## Purple

Kimmagegirl said:


> I know someone who whinges and whines because they can't afford a holiday in the sun.....but smokes 20+ cigarettes a day. About €5500 a year in cost. Her daughter would love to go to University but the mother has no money to send her.


Yep, lots of that going around


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## Firefly

Kimmagegirl said:


> I know someone who whinges and whines because they can't afford a holiday in the sun.....but smokes 20+ cigarettes a day. About €5500 a year in cost. Her daughter would love to go to University but the mother has no money to send her.


That's heart-breaking, not the holiday obviously, but the education.


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## time to plan

Sunny said:


> True but then people don't seem to fear sticking a pill in their mouth and snorting powder that comes from the local reputable drug dealer..!


The pill is probably safer than the cigarette.


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## time to plan

The availability of eCigarettes and vaping is so widespread now that it can’t be along before countries start looking at banning tobacco product like cigarettes. If you step back, it’s odd that such a highly addictive poisonous substance is legally available in the corner shop.


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## seamus m

Are vape only people now or always classed as smokers


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## noproblem

Leper said:


> Realistically, does anybody here believe that we'll see a day when nobody lights up a cigarette? If you do, when do you think it'll happen?


Tomorrow. Read again tomorrow and you'll better understand my answer


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## noproblem

Kimmagegirl said:


> I know someone who whinges and whines because they can't afford a holiday in the sun.....but smokes 20+ cigarettes a day. About €5500 a year in cost. Her daughter would love to go to University but the mother has no money to send her.


Don't forget the coffee


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## mathepac

Purple said:


> I don't know how they can afford it and I really don't know how that nonsense it's cheaper to eat processed food than fresh food gets any traction.


It's more evidence of the "instant gratification" thing.  Stick the box/packet/bag in the oven or microwave for 5 to 20 mins and bingo, tear into it, no prep and only packaging to dispose of and maybe some cutlery to wash.  No long and tiresome prep, 2 to 3 hrs cooking, and massive washup and drying.  Collapse in the sofa with insta-grub or after it and get on with real life, e.g. X Factor, Coronation St, Love Island.

The illegal drugs win out for the same reason. Drinking enough to get any kind of "buzz" takes time. Drink with benzos or other CNS depressants and you're flying sooner; take heroin, skunk, cocaine, crack and you're off to the races quicker and may still be able to "enjoy" a drink.

Are grossly obese health care staff (non-medics) a thing or is it just me that notices them?


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## Purple

mathepac said:


> It's more evidence of the "instant gratification" thing.  Stick the box/packet/bag in the oven or microwave for 5 to 20 mins and bingo, tear into it, no prep and only packaging to dispose of and maybe some cutlery to wash.  No long and tiresome prep, 2 to 3 hrs cooking, and massive washup and drying.  Collapse in the sofa with insta-grub or after it and get on with real life, e.g. X Factor, Coronation St, Love Island.
> 
> The illegal drugs win out for the same reason. Drinking enough to get any kind of "buzz" takes time. Drink with benzos or other CNS depressants and you're flying sooner; take heroin, skunk, cocaine, crack and you're off to the races quicker and may still be able to "enjoy" a drink.


I'd love to disagree with you but I can't. 


mathepac said:


> Are grossly obese health care staff (non-medics) a thing or is it just me that notices them?


I've noticed it too.


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## time to plan

Purple said:


> I've noticed it too.


It is noticeable, in part I think because it seems incongruous - we expect healthcare workers to be healthy. Worth considering that there are 'risk factors' in working patterns such as night work that correlate with obesity. See: https://dmsjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13098-020-0524-9


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## Purple

I know a really over weight GP that chain smokes. Not the person you'd go to for health advice.


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## JD2021

Have to admit I'm a smoker and have tried everything.  Just an observation I've made, I buy the 30/ 34 packs.

Firstly a certain brand are infamous for reducing pack content whilst not reducing price, a month ago they reduced a 35 pack to 34 , this not the first time on other pack sizes.

The budget, presumably increases a pack of 20 × €0.50 cent and I always understood increase whilst immediate is not intended to affect current / old stock, its applicable to new stock (open to correction), I mentioned this as my local shop had prices increased the next morning and I know they don't restock until Fridays.

But more intriguing they and other outlets have actually increased the now 34 pack by a full €1 , that can't be right or is it. Might seem trivial for non smokers, but just thought I would mention this, it seems more like gouging on top of the tax increase.


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## noproblem

What's a 34 pack?


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## odyssey06

Purple said:


> I know a really over weight GP that chain smokes. Not the person you'd go to for health advice.


I thought smoking suppressed appetite... I have a pet theory its one of the reasons for rise in BMIs


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## SGWidow

noproblem said:


> What's a 34 pack?



Almost 6 six-packs


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## noproblem

SGWidow said:


> Almost 6 six-packs


?


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## Sophrosyne

Let’s say everyone gave up smoking, fast foods, alcohol, sugary drinks & driving what would be the “old reliables” for tax hikes in the budget?


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## noproblem

Sophrosyne said:


> Let’s say everyone gave up smoking, fast foods, alcohol, sugary drinks & driving what would be the “old reliables” for tax hikes in the budget?


Condoms


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## peemac

gianni said:


> A tobacco survey from 2019...commissioned by Revenue and the National Tobacco Control Office (never heard of it)...state:
> 
> 15% of cigarette packets are illegal
> 9% are legal but non Irish duty paid
> 
> Suggests that 3/4 packs have duty paid on them in Ireland.


I suspect that will rise greatly now that duty free is available between Ireland and Britain including the ferries - anyone for a day trip to Holyhead? or a cheap €20 return to Manchester? 

I go to Britain 4/5 times a year, herself is a smoker, so I'll pick up a carton on each trip (might try and sneak another carton too). I suspect a huge number of others will do the same thing


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## Purple

Sophrosyne said:


> Let’s say everyone gave up smoking, fast foods, alcohol, sugary drinks & driving what would be the “old reliables” for tax hikes in the budget?


We’d need billions less for Health, though giving their track record they’d just spend it anyway and we’d still have waiting lists and rubbish services.
We’d also have to increase the retirement age to about 75!


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## Purple

odyssey06 said:


> I thought smoking suppressed appetite... I have a pet theory its one of the reasons for rise in BMIs


No it’s thyroid problem. 

Thyroid problems could solve world hunger. It seems you can eat a healthy diet and get loads of exercise but still be 70kg overweight if you’ve a thyroid problem.


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## odyssey06

Purple said:


> We’d need billions less for Health, though giving their track record they’d just spend it anyway and we’d still have waiting lists and rubbish services.
> We’d also have to increase the retirement age to about 75!



Yes older retirement and/or billions more for pensions, nursing homes, housing supports...


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## JD2021

noproblem said:


> What's a 34 pack?


JPS do a 34 pack, it was 35 until a month ago, reduced to 34 and price the same, they've done this on 30 packet, reduced to 29, now 27 and price the same. Other brands do 30 packs, pall mall etc.


----------



## JD2021

Purple said:


> No it’s thyroid problem.
> 
> Thyroid problems could solve world hunger. It seems you can eat a healthy diet and get loads of exercise but still be 70kg overweight if you’ve a thyroid problem.


I'm one (Graeves Disease) and no it doesn't quite work like that, I don't put on weight at all but have a  cholesterol number over twice the norm and this despite a strict diet. It's a horrible illness and whilst controllable,  I am on 4 different medications daily to control side affects which include high blood pressure, Cholesterol,  increased heart rate .


----------



## noproblem

JD2021 said:


> JPS do a 34 pack, it was 35 until a month ago, reduced to 34 and price the same, they've done this on 30 packet, reduced to 29, now 27 and price the same. Other brands do 30 packs, pall mall etc.


Thanks for that, thought it was a joke. Never heard of that in my life, need to get out more. Seems so long ago now since we used to get the non boarders to buy I cigarette at a time for us. People now say they were the good old days, were they fcek!  Young lads and girls think they have it rough these days? God love the little darlings.


----------



## arbitron

Purple said:


> It seems you can eat a healthy diet and get loads of exercise but still be 70kg overweight if you’ve a thyroid problem.



There no "it seems" about it - that's exactly what can happen with thyroid dysfunction. Ask any endocrinologist.


----------



## JD2021

noproblem said:


> Thanks for that, thought it was a joke. Never heard of that in my life, need to get out more. Seems so long ago now since we used to get the non boarders to buy I cigarette at a time for us. People now say they were the good old days, were they fcek!  Young lads and girls think they have it rough these days? God love the little darlings.


Lol, no stay were you are, its a mad world out there


----------



## Cervelo

noproblem said:


> Seems so long ago now since we used to get the non boarders to buy I cigarette at a time for us.


I started smoking at thirteen (41 years ago) I used to hear stories that the shops used to sell a single cigarette and a match 
For me you had to buy a pack of ten and IIRC a pack Benson & hedges was about 30 pence back then

I'm off to Spain at the end of the month for the winter but will be back for Christmas and there will be more than a couple of cartons in the suitcase that will be with me


----------



## JD2021

arbitron said:


> There no "it seems" about it - that's exactly what can happen with thyroid dysfunction. Ask any endocrinologist.


It very much depends,  Hypo or Hyperthyroidism two very different things , I'm on the Hyperthyroidism side and near impossible to put on wait, however cholesterol levels through the roof, one of numerous side effects of the particular disease I have


----------



## JD2021

Cervelo said:


> I started smoking at thirteen (41 years ago) I used to hear stories that the shops used to sell a single cigarette and a match
> For me you had to buy a pack of ten and IIRC a pack Benson & hedges was about 30 pence back then
> 
> I'm off to Spain at the end of the month for the winter but will be back for Christmas and there will be more than a couple of cartons in the suitcase that will be with me


Enjoy , and I'm ashamed to admit I used to purchase those single cigs in my local newsagents


----------



## twofor1

When I was 16 / 17 in the 1970’s I was in 5th & 6th year secondary school, there was a designated smoking area in the school grounds where 5th & 6th year pupils could smoke at break times. Unbelievable in today's world.

The local shop sold single cigarettes, Gold Bond and Broad Leaf were, I think 2p each, Carrolls, Major and Rothmans (Like the pilots smoked) were probably 3p each.

I used to spend my bus fare on cigarettes and walk to school, very believable for a 16 year old.

Gave them up a long time ago now.


----------



## arbitron

Purple said:


> Ah, no.
> Most of the extra weight gained in hypothyroid individuals is due to excess accumulation of salt and water. Massive weight gain is rarely associated with hypothyroidism. In general, *5-10 pounds of body weight may* be attributable to the thyroid, depending on the severity of the hypothyroidism
> If you are 70Kg overweight it's because you've a bad diet and don't exercise and you're just making excuses.



You reckon that "It seems you can eat a healthy diet and get loads of exercise but still be 70kg overweight if you’ve a thyroid problem."

And you can. Not everyone - some people with hypothyroidism never gain weight. But some do.

As your Google search shows, and indeed as you quoted: ""

Rarely does not mean never and it certainly isn't as rare as we imagine.

If someone is 70kg overweight it may well be because they gained a few kilos from hypothyroidism and then their lifestyle/genes/medication did the rest.

You are wrong if you think it is all down to diet, exercise, and making excuses. The science is very clear, you are just repeating misinformation.

Life is short, biology is complicated, pious snarking is not good for anyone. And this is a thread about tax on cigarettes.


----------



## Purple

@arbitron , yes, this is a thread about taxes and cigarettes so let's agree to disagree on the weight gain thing. It's something that I know quite a bit about but we are straying into medical issues. 

If we are taxing cigarettes because they are unhealthy why have we only got token taxes on things that are also very unhealthy and cost the State far more in net terms? Where's the meaningful sugar tax?


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

twofor1 said:


> When I was 16 / 17 in the 1970’s I was in 5th & 6th year secondary school, there was a designated smoking area in the school grounds where 5th & 6th year pupils could smoke at break times. Unbelievable in today's world.
> 
> The local shop sold single cigarettes, Gold Bond and Broad Leaf were, I think 2p each, Carrolls, Major and Rothmans (Like the pilots smoked) were probably 3p each.
> 
> I used to spend my bus fare on cigarettes and walk to school, very believable for a 16 year old.
> 
> Gave them up a long time ago now.


Happy times but not a clue the damage that was being done. 
Myself and a  friend used to roll old holborn sell them at break, if we ran out of papers we used the Gideon Bible pages as a substitute,  great marketing move.

But it would be interesting to see the figure for tax revenue that tobacco raises, it can't be huge, I think the increases now is to try and get people not to start.


----------



## joe sod

gianni said:


> A tobacco survey from 2019...commissioned by Revenue and the National Tobacco Control Office (never heard of it)...state:
> 
> 15% of cigarette packets are illegal
> 9% are legal but non Irish duty paid
> 
> Suggests that 3/4 packs have duty paid on them in Ireland.


I doubt that is correct, it's in their interests to understate the black market cigarette market because if they counted it fully they would undermine the whole rationale for having extremely high tobacco taxes.
Now with duty free cigarettes available just from a trip to the UK the black market is about to get much bigger. A pack of 200 from UK airport duty free works out at between 5 and 6 pounds a pack now. It hasn't been noticed yet due to the covid travel restrictions since brexit


----------



## Sophrosyne

Paul O Mahoney said:


> But it would be interesting to see the figure for tax revenue that tobacco raises, it can't be huge, I think the increases now is to try and get people not to start.


See page 23 of this paper by the Tax Strategy Group

Table 2: Tobacco Products Tax Yield [excise & VAT] from 2005 to 2021


YearCigarettesOther Tobacco ProductsTotal2005€1,054m​€26m​€1,080m​2006€1,071m​€32m​€1,103m​2007*€1,155m​€37m​€1,192m​2008*€1,132m​€40m​€1,171m​2009*€1,155m​€61m​€1,217m​2010€1,101m​€59m​€1,160m​2011€1,057m​€69m​€1,126m​2012*€990m​€83m​€1072m​2013*€955m​€109m​€1064m​2014*€881m​€102m​€984m​2015*€938m​€145m​€1082m​2016*€973m​€124m​€1098m​2017*€1241m​€156m​€1397m​2018*€646m​€103m​€749m​2019*€1011m​€125m​€1136m​2020*€1040m​€161m​€1201m​2021*#€1092m​€170m​€1262m​


*Rate Change

#2021 figures are current Revenue forecasts.

The main driver for excises increases is health.

“The Revenue Commissioners have expressed a view that increases in excise may not lead to increased yields, as higher cigarette prices in Ireland could reduce demand due to greater incentives to purchase non-Irish duty paid tobacco products as well as to substitute to other products, such as e-cigarettes. Therefore, the above yield projections could be significantly affected by demand elasticity.”

The paper also mentions that according to the latest survey (2019) by IPSOS MRBI, carried out on behalf of Revenue, 24m packs of cigarettes consumed in the State were illicit. This equates to an exchequer loss of circa 242m.

This does not include non-Irish duty paid tobacco products, which is reckoned to be 8-9%. Though I suspect that figure is too low.


----------



## Sophrosyne

I would like to see an equivalent report on the cost savings to the health service consequent to the smoking ban & increased excise duties.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Sophrosyne said:


> See page 23 of this paper by the Tax Strategy Group
> 
> Table 2: Tobacco Products Tax Yield [excise & VAT] from 2005 to 2021
> 
> 
> YearCigarettesOther Tobacco ProductsTotal2005€1,054m​€26m​€1,080m​2006€1,071m​€32m​€1,103m​2007*€1,155m​€37m​€1,192m​2008*€1,132m​€40m​€1,171m​2009*€1,155m​€61m​€1,217m​2010€1,101m​€59m​€1,160m​2011€1,057m​€69m​€1,126m​2012*€990m​€83m​€1072m​2013*€955m​€109m​€1064m​2014*€881m​€102m​€984m​2015*€938m​€145m​€1082m​2016*€973m​€124m​€1098m​2017*€1241m​€156m​€1397m​2018*€646m​€103m​€749m​2019*€1011m​€125m​€1136m​2020*€1040m​€161m​€1201m​2021*#€1092m​€170m​€1262m​
> 
> 
> *Rate Change
> 
> #2021 figures are current Revenue forecasts.
> 
> The main driver for excises increases is health.
> 
> “The Revenue Commissioners have expressed a view that increases in excise may not lead to increased yields, as higher cigarette prices in Ireland could reduce demand due to greater incentives to purchase non-Irish duty paid tobacco products as well as to substitute to other products, such as e-cigarettes. Therefore, the above yield projections could be significantly affected by demand elasticity.”
> 
> The paper also mentions that according to the latest survey (2019) by IPSOS MRBI, carried out on behalf of Revenue, 24m packs of cigarettes consumed in the State were illicit. This equates to an exchequer loss of circa 242m.
> 
> This does not include non-Irish duty paid tobacco products, which is reckoned to be 8-9%. Though I suspect that figure is too low.


 That's a lot more that I would have imagined by a long way, I thought younger people weren't smoking as much as we did.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Sophrosyne said:


> I would like to see an equivalent report on the cost savings to the health service consequent to the smoking ban & increased excise duties.


Well I admire the questioning thought,  but I doubt very much that data has never been looked at , afterall this is the HSE who really don't understand analysis of any kind and I doubt they ever will.


----------



## Sophrosyne

I'm not sure whether it is people taking up smoking or existing smokers paying more.

As to the health data, I can only find reports detailing smoking habits, but nothing on how governmental strategies have impacted the health service.

The benefits of giving up/not starting are widely commended, so then surely there must be some evidence of savings, otherwise what's it all for?


----------



## SparkRite

.


----------



## SparkRite

Paul O Mahoney said:


> That's a lot more that I would have imagined by a long way, I thought younger people weren't smoking as much as we did.


Interpolation of the table above would signify that a lot less people are using tobacco today than 16 years ago.


----------



## Sophrosyne

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Well I admire the questioning thought, but I doubt very much that data has never been looked at , afterall this is the HSE who really don't understand analysis of any kind and I doubt they ever will.


I just don't get that. It is one of my pet irritants; not just in the HSE.

Analysis, costing, planning, innovation, etc., depend on appropriate reliable data.

"I'd say" or "In my opinion" of itself, is worthless unless it is proved.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Sophrosyne said:


> I'm not sure whether it is people taking up smoking or existing smokers paying more.
> 
> As to the health data, I can only find reports detailing smoking habits, but nothing on how governmental strategies have impacted the health service.
> 
> The benefits of giving up/not starting are widely commended, so then surely there must be some evidence of savings, otherwise what's it all for?


Edit Double post.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Sophrosyne said:


> I just don't get that. It is one of my pet irritants; not just in the HSE.
> 
> Analysis, costing, planning, innovation, etc., depend on appropriate reliable data.
> 
> "I'd say" or "In my opinion" of itself, is worthless unless it is proved.


Oh I agree and even when I had nothing to do after getting out of hospital I decided to analyse cancer in Ireland and see where we were in various areas, cancer is a serious disease but the lack of data, that improved post 1995 with the setting up of the Cancer register but it's so understaffed theres only so much they can do, of course all data prior gone. 

Even during the pandemic the data released here and submitted to ECDC doesn't match exactly its about 95/6 
% accurate and they weren't sending data or gathering it for months. 

I find it incredible that they don't use data to create budgets,  or strategically plan its maddening and isn't going to change


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

SparkRite said:


> Interpolation of the table above would signify that a lot less people are using tobacco today than 16 years ago.


Probably the only way to get a figure. Increasing prices is one thing but actual impact of price rises also needs to be understood.


----------



## Sophrosyne

Paul O Mahoney said:


> I find it incredible that they don't use data to create budgets, or strategically plan its maddening and isn't going to change


So do I.

Lobby our local representatives? Sometimes it works. I have had some success over the years.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Sophrosyne said:


> So do I.
> 
> Lobby our local representatives? Sometimes it works. I have had some success over the years.


I'm afraid my 4 are as useless as an astray on a bike. 
When in Tallaght I used to breakout and one day Trevor Sargent was in the reception area, he had nothing to do with health but I launched anyway, in my dressing gown and hooked up to a drip, he simply out listened me.


----------



## RetirementPlan

Paul O Mahoney said:


> I find it incredible that they don't use data to create budgets,  or strategically plan its maddening and isn't going to change


How did you conclude that they don't use data to create budgets or strategically plan?


----------



## Purple

RetirementPlan said:


> How did you conclude that they don't use data to create budgets or strategically plan?


The shambolic state of the Health Service, despite very high levels of funding would lead me to believe that there is a lack of strategic planning. 
The alternative is hard to contemplate as it would involve wilful waste and deliberately causing suffering. I prefer to assume incompetence rather than malice.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

RetirementPlan said:


> How did you conclude that they don't use data to create budgets or strategically plan?


They don't and if they do the data is wrong,  simple example when I was sick I was treated in 4 hospitals,  in Tallaght I had my bloods done every morning, I had to go to StJames to have my stem cells harvested and on arrival bloods were taken again. Each hospital set up a new unique hospital number for me and I was classified as a patient in each. If the HSE had no other patients at that time I know they would have reported 4 patients, ie me in 4 separate hospitals, if they used that data for anything they would be overstating by a factor of 4.

The mother in law died in July and since then we have received 9 letters from the HSE advising her of up coming appointments in 3 hospitals. 

I could go on, but the evidence of how the HSE creates/uses data is shambolic.


----------



## Purple

Paul O Mahoney said:


> They don't and if they do the data is wrong,  simple example when I was sick I was treated in 4 hospitals,  in Tallaght I had my bloods done every morning, I had to go to StJames to have my stem cells harvested and on arrival bloods were taken again. Each hospital set up a new unique hospital number for me and I was classified as a patient in each. If the HSE had no other patients at that time I know they would have reported 4 patients, ie me in 4 separate hospitals, if they used that data for anything they would be overstating by a factor of 4.
> 
> The mother in law died in July and since then we have received 9 letters from the HSE advising her of up coming appointments in 3 hospitals.
> 
> I could go on, but the evidence of how the HSE creates/uses data is shambolic.


That must be a large part of the reason the HSE states that they have a quarter of a million patients on waiting lists. They probably have a quarter of that. 
I see Fintan O'Toole cynically using sick children to score cheap political points in the Irish Times again. His complete lack of integrity is literally stomach turning.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Purple said:


> That must be a large part of the reason the HSE states that they have a quarter of a million patients on waiting lists. They probably have a quarter of that.
> I see Fintan O'Toole cynically using sick children to score cheap political points in the Irish Times again. His complete lack of integrity is literally stomach turning.


I actually had an opportunity to ask someone in the HSE that exact question about and while she weren't talking directly she said as much, people are referred to multiple locations and counted. The INMO take these numbers too.

We've drifted off topic,  I'm going out now for a fag, bought in Spain last week. €8 a packet and their health system seems to operate fine with that price.


----------



## Purple

Paul O Mahoney said:


> I actually had an opportunity to ask someone in the HSE that exact question about and while she weren't talking directly she said as much, people are referred to multiple locations and counted. The INMO take these numbers too.


The INMO know the numbers are incorrect but use them anyway because they care more about leveraging more money from the State than the sick and vulnerable.


----------



## RetirementPlan

Paul O Mahoney said:


> They don't and if they do the data is wrong,  simple example when I was sick I was treated in 4 hospitals,  in Tallaght I had my bloods done every morning, I had to go to StJames to have my stem cells harvested and on arrival bloods were taken again. Each hospital set up a new unique hospital number for me and I was classified as a patient in each. If the HSE had no other patients at that time I know they would have reported 4 patients, ie me in 4 separate hospitals, if they used that data for anything they would be overstating by a factor of 4.
> 
> The mother in law died in July and since then we have received 9 letters from the HSE advising her of up coming appointments in 3 hospitals.
> 
> I could go on, but the evidence of how the HSE creates/uses data is shambolic.


Honestly, this says nothing about how they do or don't plan strategically. It's a fair bet that the HSE folks who add up patient numbers are only too well aware that the same person will be registered in multiple hospitals, and they don't simply add up the number of patients at each hospital to come up with a total number of patients.

The only thing this experience tells you is that we don't have an integrated patient management system running across all hospitals.

Here's their strategic plan btw: https://www.hse.ie/eng/about/who/qid/strategic-plan-2019-2024/


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

RetirementPlan said:


> Honestly, this says nothing about how they do or don't plan strategically. It's a fair bet that the HSE folks who add up patient numbers are only too well aware that the same person will be registered in multiple hospitals, and they don't simply add up the number of patients at each hospital to come up with a total number of patients.
> 
> The only thing this experience tells you is that we don't have an integrated patient management system running across all hospitals.
> 
> Here's their strategic plan btw: https://www.hse.ie/eng/about/who/qid/strategic-plan-2019-2024/


I'll ask how do they eliminate that double counting, because I know for a fact their systems aren't aligned and some systems are from the early 90s. 

But let's give them the benefit of the doubt and say they are aware of dublication and account for it what does that render the data used for input into planning either operationally or strategically,  in 2 words redundant and comprised. I mean this is room 101 stuff when planning. 
I'll leave it at that as we are way off topic now.


----------



## Purple

Paul O Mahoney said:


> I'll ask *how do they eliminate that double counting*, because I know for a fact their systems aren't aligned and some systems are from the early 90s.


That's the crux of it. If they can eliminate the double counting then there's an integrated patient identification system somewhere. If Joseph Heller was still alive he's be suing for plagiarism.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Purple said:


> That's the crux of it. If they can eliminate the double counting then there's an integrated patient identification system somewhere. If Joseph Heller was still alive he's be suing for plagiarism.


Who's Joseph Heller? , and I'm not joking


----------



## SparkRite

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Who's Joseph Heller? , and I'm not joking


----------



## Purple

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Who's Joseph Heller? , and I'm not joking


Catch 22


----------



## Purple

The best Heller quote; Some years after Catch 22 was published a journalist said to him that he hadn't written anything as good since. He said "I know, but who has?".

Anyway, back to the bickering...


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

I did now I've more knowledge,  he was a serial short story writer too, I write short stories


----------



## Purple

RetirementPlan said:


> It's a fair bet that the HSE folks who add up patient numbers are only too well aware that the same person will be registered in multiple hospitals, and they don't simply add up the number of patients at each hospital to come up with a total number of patients.


Really?
According to the HSE 1 in every 7.65 people in this country is waiting for a first outpatient appointment and in total 1 in every 5.5 people is waiting for an appointment. That's 908,000 people waiting for an appointment. One in every 5.5 people in this country is sick enough to need hospital treatment. 

From the link above _“Those of us who work in healthcare have proven that even in the most unprecedented of challenges, we can deliver solutions. It is now beyond time for those in leadership positions to do likewise,” said IHCA president Prof Alan Irvine."_
He should be laughed out the door. Is he seriously suggesting that the President of the IHCA isn't in a leadership position? Does he think we forgot that they held out for 14 years in their negotiations for a new contract (with god only knows how much suffering and death caused directly by them).


----------



## RetirementPlan

Paul O Mahoney said:


> I'll ask how do they eliminate that double counting, because I know for a fact their systems aren't aligned and some systems are from the early 90s.
> 
> But let's give them the benefit of the doubt and say they are aware of dublication and account for it what does that render the data used for input into planning either operationally or strategically,  in 2 words redundant and comprised. I mean this is room 101 stuff when planning.
> I'll leave it at that as we are way off topic now.


That's my point though. You didn't 'ask how do they.......'. You came out with broad generalised criticism simply because you don't know how they do things. TBH, I've no idea how they do their planning, but it's just a tad unfair to criticise them based on your personal lack of knowledge of their planning processes, rather than based on anything they do or don't do.

Funnily enough, you'll find that they are fairly well aware of the dangers of redundant data, which is why they've been working in the Individual Health Identifier for a few years now. 




__





						Individual Health Identifier (IHI)
					

Context for the Individual Health Identifiers Programme providing the background to the EHR programme.




					www.ehealthireland.ie
				



They're not big eejits sitting over there waiting for the experts on bulletin boards to tell them what to do. They know the problems, and they're working hard to address them, within all the usual limitations of funding and staffing and competing priorities.


Purple said:


> Really?
> According to the HSE 1 in every 7.65 people in this country is waiting for a first outpatient appointment and in total 1 in every 5.5 people is waiting for an appointment. That's 908,000 people waiting for an appointment. One in every 5.5 people in this country is sick enough to need hospital treatment.
> 
> From the link above _“Those of us who work in healthcare have proven that even in the most unprecedented of challenges, we can deliver solutions. It is now beyond time for those in leadership positions to do likewise,” said IHCA president Prof Alan Irvine."_
> He should be laughed out the door. Is he seriously suggesting that the President of the IHCA isn't in a leadership position? Does he think we forgot that they held out for 14 years in their negotiations for a new contract (with god only knows how much suffering and death caused directly by them).


Are you saying those outpatient figures are wrong?

I'm not sure what your beef is with IHCA, but about one in five consultant posts, over 700 posts were vacant this time last year, so probably the same or worse this year. Just in case you think that the consultants got some amazingly sweet deal that has them chomping at the bit to get on board.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

RetirementPlan said:


> That's my point though. You didn't 'ask how do they.......'. You came out with broad generalised criticism simply because you don't know how they do things. TBH, I've no idea how they do their planning, but it's just a tad unfair to criticise them based on your personal lack of knowledge of their planning processes, rather than based on anything they do or don't do.
> 
> Funnily enough, you'll find that they are fairly well aware of the dangers of redundant data, which is why they've been working in the Individual Health Identifier for a few years now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Individual Health Identifier (IHI)
> 
> 
> Context for the Individual Health Identifiers Programme providing the background to the EHR programme.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ehealthireland.ie
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They're not big eejits sitting over there waiting for the experts on bulletin boards to tell them what to do. They know the problems, and they're working hard to address them, within all the usual limitations of funding and staffing and competing priorities.
> 
> Are you saying those outpatient figures are wrong?
> 
> I'm not sure what your beef is with IHCA, but about one in five consultant posts, over 700 posts were vacant this time last year, so probably the same or worse this year. Just in case you think that the consultants got some amazingly sweet deal that has them chomping at the bit to get on board.


You seem to have a narrative and ply totally unreliable links, ie produced by the HSE, the same organisation that to a dog on the street , who can add, can see beyond the claptrap. 

Health in all its facets in this country simply isn't fit for purpose.  I wish it was but its not.

You seemingly have data to hand and I'll pose this rather broad question,  indicate or show one year in the last 20 where the HSE has stuck to budget and fulfilled its duty to the citizens of our country.

The health system saved my life,  mind you €320k was paid out from HI to cover that,  yes they aren't all ejiits either but the proof is there to be seen a budget in the billions almost 20 and yet it is what it is, dominated by people who wouldn't find a job elsewhere. And I'm not talking about the frontline, 40% of budget is frontline and 60% is bad data, and other incurables.

If they were doing the right job and a population of 5m there should be nobody sick, or a least an avenue of getting better would be available,  its clearly not and hasn't been for decades


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Paul O Mahoney said:


> You seem to have a narrative and ply totally unreliable links, ie produced by the HSE, the same organisation that to a dog on the street , who can add, can see beyond the claptrap.
> 
> Health in all its facets in this country simply isn't fit for purpose.  I wish it was but its not.
> 
> You seemingly have data to hand and I'll pose this rather broad question,  indicate or show one year in the last 20 where the HSE has stuck to budget and fulfilled its duty to the citizens of our country.
> 
> The health system saved my life,  mind you €320k was paid out from HI to cover that,  yes they aren't all ejiits either but the proof is there to be seen a budget in the billions almost 20 and yet it is what it is, dominated by people who wouldn't find a job elsewhere. And I'm not talking about the frontline, 40% of budget is frontline and 60% is bad data, and other incurables.
> 
> If they were doing the right job and a population of 5m there should be nobody sick, or a least an avenue of getting better would be available,  its clearly not and hasn't been for decades


My view and still off topic


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

[broken link removed]

And this is pre- pandemic.

17% surge in .....outside of predicted figures .......and on and on.

Your narrative is worthless , and I question why you are here,  because when a  new poster arrives they aren't as well armed as you. 

The plot thickens


----------



## Cervelo

Paul O Mahoney said:


> I'm going out now for a fag, bought in Spain last week. €8 a packet


Forget the state of the HSE since when are a packet of cigarettes €8, the last time I bought them they were €50 for 200 or €5 a pack
That was in March 2020, was there a price increase or does it depend on where you buy them??


----------



## Leper

Cervelo said:


> Forget the state of the HSE since when are a packet of cigarettes €8, the last time I bought them they were €50 for 200 or €5 a pack
> That was in March 2020, was there a price increase or does it depend on where you buy them??


It depends on where you buy them. Airports are usually dearer. But, John Player Blue is the brand most go for so prices will vary, but not by much in the TABAC shops.


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## Paul O Mahoney

Leper said:


> It depends on where you buy them. Airports are usually dearer. But, John Player Blue is the brand most go for so prices will vary, but not by much in the TABAC shops.


Camel blue, good smoke unless you get a gift of the menthol version and its like brushing your teeth.


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## Cervelo

I don't smoke cigarettes myself anymore, lost the desire after the smoking ban kicked in and finally stopped when I stopped drinking 
The cigarettes I buy are for Mrs C and I really do wonder why she bothers, she smokes Silkcut Silver and I can honestly say I get more satisfaction out of sucking the butt of a pencil than those things


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## RetirementPlan

Paul O Mahoney said:


> You seem to have a narrative and ply totally unreliable links, ie produced by the HSE, the same organisation that to a dog on the street , who can add, can see beyond the claptrap.
> 
> Health in all its facets in this country simply isn't fit for purpose.  I wish it was but its not.
> 
> You seemingly have data to hand and I'll pose this rather broad question,  indicate or show one year in the last 20 where the HSE has stuck to budget and fulfilled its duty to the citizens of our country.
> 
> The health system saved my life,  mind you €320k was paid out from HI to cover that,  yes they aren't all ejiits either but the proof is there to be seen a budget in the billions almost 20 and yet it is what it is, dominated by people who wouldn't find a job elsewhere. And I'm not talking about the frontline, 40% of budget is frontline and 60% is bad data, and other incurables.
> 
> If they were doing the right job and a population of 5m there should be nobody sick, or a least an avenue of getting better would be available,  its clearly not and hasn't been for decades


'A narrative'? Everyone has a narrative. I've no idea why you reckon that information about the Individual Health Identifier project is 'totally unreliable'. You complain about them not having an identifier, and then you complain when they publish information about the project to implement and identifier. There's a bit of a narrative going on there.

I'm not going to do your research for you, so if you want to check out budgets, you can do your own digging. The problem with health budgets is that people tend not to stick to the budget when they get sick. This frontline/back office split is nonsense. They all have their job to do. The people who run the payroll and run the training courses and buy the sutures are all essential to the service, along with those who actually deliver the service.

The idea that 'there should be nobody sick' isn't exactly realistic, based on experiences all over the world.


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## Purple

RetirementPlan said:


> The people who run the payroll and run the training courses and buy the sutures are all essential to the service, along with those who actually deliver the service.


No argument there. The problem is that due to duplication of process and massive structural inefficiencies there is far too much of that work that 'needs' to be done. The people working in the Public Health system have know about this for generations so projects to fix it are, understandable, not taken seriously by those members of the general public who have taken 10 minutes to think about it.


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## time to plan

RetirementPlan said:


> That's my point though. You didn't 'ask how do they.......'. You came out with broad generalised criticism simply because you don't know how they do things. TBH, I've no idea how they do their planning, but it's just a tad unfair to criticise them based on your personal lack of knowledge of their planning processes, rather than based on anything they do or don't do.
> 
> Funnily enough, you'll find that they are fairly well aware of the dangers of redundant data, which is why they've been working in the Individual Health Identifier for a few years now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Individual Health Identifier (IHI)
> 
> 
> Context for the Individual Health Identifiers Programme providing the background to the EHR programme.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ehealthireland.ie
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They're not big eejits sitting over there waiting for the experts on bulletin boards to tell them what to do. They know the problems, and they're working hard to address them, within all the usual limitations of funding and staffing and competing priorities.
> 
> Are you saying those outpatient figures are wrong?
> 
> I'm not sure what your beef is with IHCA, but about one in five consultant posts, over 700 posts were vacant this time last year, so probably the same or worse this year. Just in case you think that the consultants got some amazingly sweet deal that has them chomping at the bit to get on board.


Financially, Hospital Consultants do have an amazingly sweet deal, certainly compared to the NHS Consultant contract. I think the problem is that the Irish public health system is an unattractive place to work, regardless of the deal.


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## Purple

time to plan said:


> Financially, Hospital Consultants do have an amazingly sweet deal, certainly compared to the NHS Consultant contract. I think the problem is that the Irish public health system is an unattractive place to work, regardless of the deal.


The irony is that the Consultants resistance to change is aa big part of the reason that it's unattractive.


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## Paul O Mahoney

Purple said:


> No argument there. The problem is that due to duplication of process and massive structural inefficiencies there is far too much of that work that 'needs' to be done. The people working in the Public Health system have know about this for generations so projects to fix it are, understandable, not taken seriously by those members of the general public who have taken 10 minutes to think about it.


Every hospital has accounts departments, purchasing departments and so on, a classic example of the mess is a few years ago the HSE was moaning about the fact that Health Insurance companies weren't paying them for private patients like me, they said it was owed €600m, the health insurance people said we pay once we get the claims, further investigation found that some hospitals were years behind in sending claims.

The Government then mandated the insurance companies pay €300 million in December of that year, call it payment on account and it was a temporary measure,  it still going on.
My statements for all my hospital time were years after I left, left in 2009 last bill for all my treatments October 2012. 

But all visits to Consultant were paid in the year they happened, as the consultant actually went to the effort of actually sending in the claims.

And let's not mention public hospitals charging more for private patients or charging for 2 nights on a trolley while getting chemotherapy.


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## Purple

Paul O Mahoney said:


> And let's not mention public hospitals charging more for private patients or charging for 2 nights on a trolley while getting chemotherapy.


My son was in hospital earlier in the year (2 patient number in the one hospital). He was admitted through A&E after an elective procedure was screwed up. They asked for his private insurance details. I told him to refuse to give it and say that he wanted to be treated as a public patient. That practice of conning sick people into giving their insurance details so they can be charged as private patients is deplorable and is nothing short of theft.


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## Paul O Mahoney

Purple said:


> My son was in hospital earlier in the year (2 patient number in the one hospital). He was admitted through A&E after an elective procedure was screwed up. They asked for his private insurance details. I told him to refuse to give it and say that he wanted to be treated as a public patient. That practice of conning sick people into giving their insurance details so they can be charged as private patients is deplorable and is nothing short of theft.


Hope the lad has recovered, even the Health Insurance companies are advising that route and I don't blame them.  Policy prices have soared way beyond inflation the younger population subsides older policy holders and it's just allowed to go on.


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## Purple

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Hope the lad has recovered, even the Health Insurance companies are advising that route and I don't blame them.  Policy prices have soared way beyond inflation the younger population subsides older policy holders and it's just allowed to go on.


Thanks, he has. If health insurance was the only place younger people were subsidising the old they'd be well able to afford their policies.


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## RetirementPlan

Purple said:


> No argument there. The problem is that due to duplication of process and massive structural inefficiencies there is far too much of that work that 'needs' to be done. The people working in the Public Health system have know about this for generations so projects to fix it are, understandable, not taken seriously by those members of the general public who have taken 10 minutes to think about it.


Honestly, it doesn't really matter whether some in the general public decide 'not to take projects seriously' or not. The projects will progress regardless. People can choose to moan endlessly if that's what they want to do, and many of course will. The most likely outcome of the moaning of course, is that the best people involved in the projects with choose to move elsewhere, where they can do their work with less moaning. Be careful what you wish for.



Paul O Mahoney said:


> Every hospital has accounts departments, purchasing departments and so on, a classic example of the mess is a few years ago the HSE was moaning about the fact that Health Insurance companies weren't paying them for private patients like me, they said it was owed €600m, the health insurance people said we pay once we get the claims, further investigation found that some hospitals were years behind in sending claims.
> 
> The Government then mandated the insurance companies pay €300 million in December of that year, call it payment on account and it was a temporary measure,  it still going on.
> My statements for all my hospital time were years after I left, left in 2009 last bill for all my treatments October 2012.
> 
> But all visits to Consultant were paid in the year they happened, as the consultant actually went to the effort of actually sending in the claims.
> 
> And let's not mention public hospitals charging more for private patients or charging for 2 nights on a trolley while getting chemotherapy.


Yes, many hospitals continue to have accounts departments, because the kind of financial reporting to HSE, DOH and engagement with insurance companies is extensive. It's not unusual for any organisation in any business or sector that has a few hundred staff to have an accounts department or finance staff of some description involved.
HSE has centralised lots of the 'big ticket' procurement, though of course some local procurement continues. Medics continue to have responsibility for choosing particular devices, particular equipment, particular consumables - some of which will be covered by central agreements and some of which won't. 
There are indeed many problems in our health services, just as there are in every health service around the world. Check out this week's C4 Dispatches episode of you want to see some of the large debates going on over there.


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## Purple

RetirementPlan said:


> Honestly, it doesn't really matter whether some in the general public decide 'not to take projects seriously' or not. The projects will progress regardless. People can choose to moan endlessly if that's what they want to do, and many of course will. The most likely outcome of the moaning of course, is that the best people involved in the projects with choose to move elsewhere, where they can do their work with less moaning. Be careful what you wish for.


Really? That's the best you can come up with?
People don't moan, they just look at a long, expensive and tragic track record of failure are gobsmacking incompetence by those who have consistently failed to implement meaningful reforms which actually improve efficiency and they conclude that this will be no different.
I wish that the 'best people' were good enough to get the job done..


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## Leper

Purple said:


> Really? That's the best you can come up with?
> People don't moan, they just look at a long, expensive and tragic track record of failure are gobsmacking incompetence by those who have consistently failed to implement meaningful reforms which actually improve efficiency and they conclude that this will be no different.
> I wish that the 'best people' were good enough to get the job done..


Fair enough! Let's cease paying professionals to assist people shedding the smoking habit. The practice hasn't worked.  Whoever wants to smoke, let them smoke within the restrictions that currently operate. Even reduce the price of the box of fags and let the state regain whatever taxes are being lost by smokers purchasing ciggies from abroad. And perhaps we can regain more tax by selling cheaper than the countries selling @ €50.00 for ten pack of twenty.

We've tried everything else, now let's try something different.


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## Peanuts20

Purple said:


> My son was in hospital earlier in the year (2 patient number in the one hospital). He was admitted through A&E after an elective procedure was screwed up. They asked for his private insurance details. I told him to refuse to give it and say that he wanted to be treated as a public patient. That practice of conning sick people into giving their insurance details so they can be charged as private patients is deplorable and is nothing short of theft.


I was checking in Number 1 child for a day procedure in CUH a couple of years ago, got asked if I had medical insurance and made the mistake of saying yeah, Got sent to the other side of the hospital to fill out some forms. Did we get anything extra for that? No.


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## Purple

Leper said:


> Fair enough! Let's cease paying professionals to assist people shedding the smoking habit. The practice hasn't worked.  Whoever wants to smoke, let them smoke within the restrictions that currently operate. Even reduce the price of the box of fags and let the state regain whatever taxes are being lost by smokers purchasing ciggies from abroad. And perhaps we can regain more tax by selling cheaper than the countries selling @ €50.00 for ten pack of twenty.
> 
> We've tried everything else, now let's try something different.


We've succeeded in reducing the proportion of people who smoke in Ireland. The money spent in this area has been shown to be a good investment both societally and economically. Why would we stop doing something that's working?


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## Paul O Mahoney

Peanuts20 said:


> I was checking in Number 1 child for a day procedure in CUH a couple of years ago, got asked if I had medical insurance and made the mistake of saying yeah, Got sent to the other side of the hospital to fill out some forms. Did we get anything extra for that? No.


When I was sick our daughter who was 8 at the time fainted when she came in to see me, on the way down she bumped her head and my wife brought her to the A&E on site. About a year later we get a bill for €120 and was told that if we didn't pay it immediately we would be perused via the courts, I happened to be in the hospital the following week for a CT scan and brought the threat/bill with me, after the CT scan I found the accounts department and asked why I was only aware of this now and why the legal threats. 

She explained that they were late getting the bills out and after 90 days the policy was to issue bills with that text. She asked then was I going to pay , and I asked her to put my hospital number in her system and pull up my details,  she did that and the blood physical left her face.
Then I asked her to see the notes on the day of my daughter needing to see a doctor in A&E and there is was she didn't present to A&E a registar had referred her to A&E therefore no charge was due. She became flustered and said that she'd look into it. She asked for the invoice back but I said "I keep it for my memoir" .

They try and extract as much money as they can and no matter what from people with health insurance and if they get it wrong its your problem.


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## Paul O Mahoney

Purple said:


> We've succeeded in reducing the proportion of people who smoke in Ireland. The money spent in this area has been shown to be a good investment both societally and economically. Why would we stop doing something that's working?


No/less revenue. People's health has always been second to money in this country and I fear always will.


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## Purple

Paul O Mahoney said:


> No/less revenue. People's health has always been second to money in this country and I fear always will.


I think the people involved all mean well but they just aren't capable of doing the job properly.


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## Sophrosyne

Purple said:


> We've succeeded in reducing the proportion of people who smoke in Ireland. The money spent in this area has been shown to be a good investment both societally and economically. Why would we stop doing something that's working?


I’m not suggesting you are wrong; you could very well be totally correct on this.

I’m not a smoker & I am not in any way advocating smoking.

We are told of the harmful effect of smoking such as heart attack, coronary heart disease, COPD and other respiratory disease, various cancers, etc.

But, are they caused solely by smoking?

The reason I am suspicious is because of conversations I had over the years with various consultants attending my father.

They said that smoking often masks other irritants and conditions that lead to the above diseases and often clinicians don’t look beyond smoking.

The smoking ban, which at the time was a huge measure and a world first, together with increased excise duty should certainly have had some measurable effect on the number of people presenting with these diseases due to smoking.

I have seen studies of smoking habits which only tell us so much, but not how that, _of itself_, has reduced incidents of coronary and respiratory diseases and cancers.

Were it successful, surely we would be bombarded with pre- and post-smoking ban comparative statistics?


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## SparkRite

Sophrosyne said:


> The reason I am suspicious is because of conversations I had over the years with various consultants attending my father.
> 
> They said that smoking often masks other irritants and conditions that lead to the above diseases and often clinicians don’t look beyond smoking.


Excellent point.
Make you wonder alright.


Sophrosyne said:


> Were it successful, surely we would be bombarded with pre- and post-smoking ban comparative statistics?


After 17+years you would think so.........hmm.


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## Leo

Sophrosyne said:


> Were it successful, surely we would be bombarded with pre- and post-smoking ban comparative statistics?


There's some analysis out there.


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## tomdublin

Purple said:


> I really don't know how that nonsense it's cheaper to eat processed food than fresh food gets any traction.


I don't understand why people believe it either as it's a complete myth.  Lidl, Aldi and Tesco are giving away fruit and vegetables for next to nothing (e.g. large bags of apples, carrots and potatoes for 49 cents).  Healthy staples such as beans, wholegrain rice and tinned tomatoes are also very cheap.  Obese citizens gorging on frozen fish fingers is a social and cultural problem, not the result of economic circumstances.


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## Purple

tomdublin said:


> I don't understand why people believe it either as it's a complete myth.  Lidl, Aldi and Tesco are giving away fruit and vegetables for next to nothing (e.g. large bags of apples, carrots and potatoes for 49 cents).  Healthy staples such as beans, wholegrain rice and tinned tomatoes are also very cheap.  Obese citizens gorging on frozen fish fingers is a social and cultural problem, not the result of economic circumstances.


I can easily feed a family two teenagers, a 12 year old and myself for €60 a week. At a stretch I could do it for €50 or a little less. 
Chicken thighs in a slow cooked curry (take the skin off and bones out before serving), Bean Chilli, Dahl, slow cooked pasta sauces, all dirt cheap and tasty. Pizza made from scratch is also really cheap and nicer and great fun to do with the kids. You can get a pizza stone on Amazon for €15. If you can read and tell the time you can cook. If you say you can't but want to and feed your kids processes rubbish you're just lazy and don't care enough about them to bother.


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## Odea

Both myself and my wife can easily live well on less than €30 per week for food.  In fact we had to stop using the €10 off a €50 spend in Dunnes Stores voucher because we couldn't spend enough.  After a while you can have so many bottles of bleach, dishwasher tabs etc.

We now get a €5 off a €25 spend and that is working well.

To think that people are spending that amount of money in a day on cigarettes and more.  What fools.

We are having a birthday get together for our 18 year old grand daughter shortly.  We visited all of the supermarkets over this week including M & S. to have a look at their party offering stuff.  We topped up on the "special offers" in each store when we saw them and as a result have a well stocked fridge and freezer that will more than keep us going.

I will have difficulty spending my current €5 off a €25 spend from Dunnes Stores this week as a result.


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## Purple

Odea said:


> Both myself and my wife can easily live well on less than €30 per week for food.  In fact we had to stop using the €10 off a €50 spend in Dunnes Stores voucher because we couldn't spend enough.  After a while you can have so many bottles of bleach, dishwasher tabs etc.
> 
> We now get a €5 off a €25 spend and that is working well.
> 
> To think that people are spending that amount of money in a day on cigarettes and more.  What fools.
> 
> We are having a birthday get together for our 18 year old grand daughter shortly.  We visited all of the supermarkets over this week including M & S. to have a look at their party offering stuff.  We topped up on the "special offers" in each store when we saw them and as a result have a well stocked fridge and freezer that will more than keep us going.
> 
> I will have difficulty spending my current €5 off a €25 spend from Dunnes Stores this week as a result.


I usually spend far more because I can afford to and I like cooking but when things were tighter I adjusted my spending accordingly. Nobody was hungry.


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## Odea

We love cooking from scratch. No problem with buying fillet steaks on a regular basis.  We trim a bit of meat off the edges and add to a stir fry. Huge bag of already mixed stir fry veg in SuperValu or Aldi, less than €2.  Add in a Chinese sauce. Beautiful meal for very little outlay.

I also love mince meat. Mince stew, spagetti bolognese, burger, chilli con carne, lasagna.   You can get several days out of €6 worth of mince.  

Same with a roast chicken.

All for about €30 per week for two people. 

Dunnes Stores have their 20% off wine sale at the moment. Our usual bottle of preferred red reduced down to €6.80.  Stocked up now until next Easter.  

Such a pity we can no longer use our €10 off voucher against the wine though. 

......and not a cigarette in sight.


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## tomdublin

Purple said:


> If you say you can't but want to and feed your kids processes rubbish you're just lazy and don't care enough about them to bother.


Adults are entitled to stuff themselves with rubbish food but not their children.  Bad nutrition fuels poor educational attainment, the reproduction of social disadvantage and by extension of crime, poverty and anti-social behaviour.   There is a strange tolerance here of irresponsible parenting and an unwillingness to hold parents to account who in effect are abusing their children.


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## Sophrosyne

Increased Carbon Tax means increased fuel costs, which in turn means the cost of everything else is increased.

Even those who live very frugally will find the cost of food, cleaning, grooming, clothing, household goods, domestic fuel and petrol & diesel have increased.

This is on top of already rising fuel costs.

The last thing the economy needs right now is higher prices.

Ireland’s price index for household consumption expenditure, at 136.1, is the second highest in the EU after Denmark.

The price indices for Germany, France, Italy & Spain, for instance, are 108.2, 114.01, 101.2, & 95.5 respectively. The UK is 119.1.


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## Purple

Sophrosyne said:


> Increased Carbon Tax means increased fuel costs, which in turn means the cost of everything else is increased.
> 
> Even those who live very frugally will find the cost of food, cleaning, grooming, clothing, household goods, domestic fuel and petrol & diesel have increased.
> 
> This is on top of already rising fuel costs.
> 
> The last thing the economy needs right now is higher prices.
> 
> Ireland’s price index for household consumption expenditure, at 136.1, is the second highest in the EU after Denmark.
> 
> The price indices for Germany, France, Italy & Spain, for instance, are 108.2, 114.01, 101.2, & 95.5 respectively. The UK is 119.1.


Increased Carbon Tax only means higher prices if we keep using hydrocarbons to generate out power. Thankfully it's looking like the EU will designate Nuclear as a Green Power source. We may finally embrace the only dependable and sustainable green energy.


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## Sophrosyne

Purple said:


> Increased Carbon Tax only means higher prices if we keep using hydrocarbons to generate out power. Thankfully it's looking like the EU will designate Nuclear as a Green Power source. We may finally embrace the only dependable and sustainable green energy.


But when will that happen?


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## Purple

Sophrosyne said:


> But when will that happen?


God only knows.


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## joe sod

time to plan said:


> Financially, Hospital Consultants do have an amazingly sweet deal, certainly compared to the NHS Consultant contract. I think the problem is that the Irish public health system is an unattractive place to work, regardless of the deal.


I think there are factors outside the HSE why these highly paid professionals choose not to work in Ireland but in London, Australia or Canada. There is a lack of the cosmopolitan nightlife and leisure activities that they find outside Ireland. They pay higher tax in Ireland than elsewhere due to our "progressive" taxation system where high earners pay the bulk of the tax. There is a lack of investment opportunities compared to the UK or Canada where high earners can invest money tax free like the personal savings accounts that the UK has.


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## Purple

joe sod said:


> I think there are factors outside the HSE why these highly paid professionals choose not to work in Ireland but in London, Australia or Canada. There is a lack of the cosmopolitan nightlife and leisure activities that they find outside Ireland. They pay higher tax in Ireland than elsewhere due to our "progressive" taxation system where high earners pay the bulk of the tax. There is a lack of investment opportunities compared to the UK or Canada where high earners can invest money tax free like the personal savings accounts that the UK has.


Yep, our very high marginal tax rates on moderate incomes are a major disincentive to work and work is what creates wealth. It also seems that  doctors like money just as much as the rest of us.


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## SparkRite

Anybody notice that fags were increased by 50c in the last budget?


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## Pinoy adventure

Just back from holidays and bought a pack of 200 for $27 USD.


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