# Irish Times School League Table



## Mel

Yesterday's Times sold out very quickly - is there a link to an online version of the league table, or will it be a while before they make it available online?


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## Thirsty

Personally I wouldn't waste my energy on it.


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## Complainer

Thirsty said:


> Personally I wouldn't waste my energy on it.



Indeed - unless you are interested in a list of those schools who's parents can afford to send them to 3rd level.


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## camel

Thirsty said:


> Personally I wouldn't waste my energy on it.



Why not exactly? Do you this it is factually incorrect?


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## Complainer

camel said:


> Why not exactly? Do you this it is factually incorrect?



It is a list that ranks schools by the percentage of their pupils that go on to third level. This does not measure the capability of the school. This measures the capability of the parents to fund third level.


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## PaddyBloggit

or a plethora of grinds after school!


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## Bronte

Complainer said:


> It is a list that ranks schools by the percentage of their pupils that go on to third level. This does not measure the capability of the school. This measures the capability of the parents to fund third level.


 
Don't get this, surely a child that goes to a school where more children go to 3rd level than another school is a school more likely to have one's own child go to 3rd level, if that is what the parents and child want.  

Is 3rd level not free for those who have no resources and who are able to get the points?


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## camel

Complainer said:


> It is a list that ranks schools by the percentage of their pupils that go on to third level. This does not measure the capability of the school. This measures the capability of the parents to fund third level.



Yeah I'm confused by that comment also.

Ok registration fees are very high and all that, but are you saying that someone from a 'lower ranked' school who does get the points required for a course, will not go due to financial reasons.

I would have thought it would be overwhelmingly for academic reasons (influenced by genes and environment) that people do or don't go onto third level. So points gained in the leaving cert...which does reflect in some way the ability of individual schools.


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## Complainer

Bronte said:


> Don't get this, surely a child that goes to a school where more children go to 3rd level than another school is a school more likely to have one's own child go to 3rd level, if that is what the parents and child want.





camel said:


> Yeah I'm confused by that comment also.
> 
> Ok registration fees are very high and all that, but are you saying that someone from a 'lower ranked' school who does get the points required for a course, will not go due to financial reasons.
> 
> I would have thought it would be overwhelmingly for academic reasons (influenced by genes and environment) that people do or don't go onto third level. So points gained in the leaving cert...which does reflect in some way the ability of individual schools.



Many people cannot afford to go to 3rd level education. For some people, they just can't afford to have no income for 3-4 years. They need to get out and work (or in the current environment, get onto social welfare) as soon as they leave school. For some people, if they don't have reasonable transport access to the college, they can't afford the car or to live away from home. For some people, they can't afford the outrageous registration fees that are just fees by another name. For many low earners, they won't qualify for grants but they still can't afford the fees.


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## ontour

Complainer said:


> For some people, they just can't afford to have no income for 3-4 years.



I went to college and had two jobs which paid my college and living costs.  Probably didn't have the best social life or gain the full benefit of the colleges extra curricular activities but I got the education I wanted.


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## Thirsty

*1. Inaccuracy*
In previous years (and I have little reason to believe this year is any different) these so called lists were inaccurate, didn't count those who went to private colleges (such as the Royal College of Surgeons), didn't count those who went to Universities abroad and didn't count those who deferred their 3rd level place.  

It totally ignores those who choose to train, go straight into work, serve apprenticeships etc., as if they were less valid choices than 3rd level education.

*2. Irrelevance*
The single biggest influence on a child's education is their parents; if parents were educated to 3rd level, children are more likely to do so also.

*3. Misleading*
Chasing down these so-called 'league tables' fools parents into thinking that they are looking at the right parameters in terms of the best school for their child.


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## camel

Complainer said:


> Many people cannot afford to go to 3rd level education. For some people, they just can't afford to have no income for 3-4 years. They need to get out and work (or in the current environment, get onto social welfare) as soon as they leave school. For some people, if they don't have reasonable transport access to the college, they can't afford the car or to live away from home. For some people, they can't afford the outrageous registration fees that are just fees by another name. For many low earners, they won't qualify for grants but they still can't afford the fees.



Me too onTour (several jobs).
..and I just went to a run of the mill local country secondary school.

I'm not arguing that a lot of people cannot afford to go onto 3rd level for whatever reason. My contention is that if the individual has made the effort to get the requisite points, they will make the effort to continue education if that's the path they choose. Placing the individual in an environment of like minded people obviously does have a positive effect on the outcome, surely there's not a debate there!

Thirsty, 
These journalists are not publishing academic research, they are just gather semi-relevant data and presenting it. It is fact based (I think), just because it doesn't cover all your bases doesn't make it irrelevant. It's a narrow snapshot. Again no debate. The OP might be a millionaire and maybe it's highly relevant to them, you don't know that.

Parents can use these lists as indicators. You guys shouldn't be so black and white about it. It's just more information, parents and students can decide for themselves how to use the info.


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## eastbono

From someone whose childrens secondary school appeared in the 200s this is my story. Daughter 1 did a plc and then did a degree in dcu 2:1 and post grad in cambridge and is now working in uk... Daughter 2 did degree in ucc  1st class )and now doing phd there as well. and daughter 2 got bursuary in year one and money each year after that and a prize (will not mention as could be identified) on completion of her degree... we never paid for grinds... daughter1 worked her way through college but daughter 2s course did now allow for that because of times etc but now she is sponsored  for her phd. and this is all from a local community school... imo school does not matter it depends on ability and parents attitude.

Okay we did have to pay reg fees every year and give money for books but that was our investment in our children and I suppose we are lucky we had the money for this.


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## camel

eastbono said:


> ... imo school does not matter it depends on ability and parents attitude.



Oh come on, of course environment has a big role to play. The school itself is very important, peers, teacher quality, equipment, ambition, etc.


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## RonanC

These "top" fee paying schools know exactly how to get their students the required leaving cert points, but can anyone prove they are better educators when compared to schools lower down the list?


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## Mel

I think the point that was made on the radio when announcing these results, was that the top 10 were all either fee-paying or gael scoils, and had parents who were particularly concerned with education. Personally, the school is chosen, but I'm interested in whether it has moved on the table. I understand the league criteria aren't perfect, but the facts speak for themselves.


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## Complainer

Mel said:


> , but the facts speak for themselves.


No, they don't. 

If you're suggesting that these league tables show which schools are better, you're wrong. They don't measure the quality of the school. They don't measure the students abilities when they entered the school, so they can't show how much of their development was down to the school. They don't measure how many students get grinds. They don't measure how many parents have web access or access to other resources. They don't measure the quality of the school. They measure the social and financial standing of the parents of kids attending that school


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## Mel

You're putting words in my mouth to support your argument. I'm not having one. Only leaving cert results count when entering third level. In that regard the results speak for themselves. Environment, interest of parents, expectations of peers and teachers, and yes, i'm sure grinds play their part. But there are lots of factors that influence exam results. I went to an ordinary country secondary school that is in the top 50. I never had a grind in any subject.  But i have a higher than usual level of education.


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## ontour

Complainer said:


> They measure the social and financial standing of the parents of kids attending that school



Complainer,  You are absolutely correct about what such a league table doesn't tell you.  Unfortunately you are equally wrong about the financial standing.  There are people from a diverse range of financial backgrounds,  like there is in non-fee paying schools. It tells you about parents willingness to invest in education regardless of how easily they can afford it.

What do you mean by social standing?


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## camel

ontour said:


> Complainer,  You are absolutely correct about what such a league table doesn't tell you.  Unfortunately you are equally wrong about the financial standing.  There are people from a diverse range of financial backgrounds,  like there is in non-fee paying schools. It tells you about parents willingness to invest in education regardless of how easily they can afford it.
> 
> What do you mean by social standing?



+1. Although I don't think any amount of debate will sway the narrow-minded on this thread. I'm out...


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## Complainer

Mel said:


> You're putting words in my mouth to support your argument. I'm not having one. Only leaving cert results count when entering third level.


The results may speak for themselves, but they certainly don't speak for the quality of the school. They don't measure where the inputs came from. They don't measure the level of the pupils when they started school. They don't measure grinds or parental involvement. 



ontour said:


> Complainer,  You are absolutely correct about what such a league table doesn't tell you.  Unfortunately you are equally wrong about the financial standing.  There are people from a diverse range of financial backgrounds,  like there is in non-fee paying schools. It tells you about parents willingness to invest in education regardless of how easily they can afford it.


Not true. For many families, the idea of €3k-€5k per child per year, on top of the many existing costs of education is completely unmanageable and unattainable. It is not within their wildest dreams.

Nor should it be - they should be entitled to get the best education for their child in their local public school. And many of them do. One of the ironies of the Celtic Tiger flood to private secondary schools was that some of the public schools were left with great pupil teacher ratios, leaving lots of time for good old-fashioned teaching by good old-fashioned teachers.


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## ontour

Complainer said:


> Not true. For many families, the idea of €3k-€5k per child per year, on top of the many existing costs of education is completely unmanageable and unattainable. It is not within their wildest dreams.



What is not true?


There are many parents that make significant sacrifices to send their child to a private school.
There are children from underprivileged backgrounds that get scholarships to private schools.
There are wealthy parents that send their children to public schools.
I am not saying that there are not people that can not afford private schools.  I am not saying that private schools are better than public schools.

There are many things that people can not afford and there are basics such as health and education that everyone should have access to.  This does not mean that you should target parents who choose to use their earned and taxed money to pay for education.  If no state funding was put in to private schools, the fees would rise substantially and would undoubtedly make them the preserve of the rich.  Like the process for planning permission, there are ways that can ensure that private schools provide accessibility to those without the financial means to pay the fees.


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## Mel

Why is this a public v private debate? 
I could probably stretch to a private school - it would actually cost less than childcare has each year so far. Unfortunately where I live the 'top' schools take in children based on relationships to past pupils, and there seem to be a handful of places available to 'new' families. 

I didn't even waste my time and energy to apply.

However, among the other possibilities, all public, there are some who rank highly and some who don't. Some move up the list each year, some drop. The one I chose didn't always rate high up on the list, but has moved up consistently over the past 6 to 8 years, and has gained a great reputation. I'm not wealthy, far far from it. But education is a priority for me; I am happy to forgo nights out, holidays and luxuries to pay for extra tuition or whatever is needed. The parents I know who will send children to the same school are of the same mindset. Not many are wealthy, the children are not spoiled with every latest accessory, but they are being supported in getting a good education from where they will have the best choices.


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## Firefly

Mel said:


> Yesterday's Times sold out very quickly - is there a link to an online version of the league table, or will it be a while before they make it available online?



Hi Mel,

Were you able to get a link to this list by any chance? 

The recent Sunday Times list for Ireland is here: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00681/The_top_400_seconda_681535a.pdf 

Thanks,
Firefly.


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## Firefly

Complainer said:


> If you're suggesting that these league tables show which schools are better, you're wrong. They don't measure the quality of the school. They don't measure the students abilities when they entered the school, so they can't show how much of their development was down to the school. They don't measure how many students get grinds. They don't measure how many parents have web access or access to other resources. They don't measure the quality of the school. They measure the social and financial standing of the parents of kids attending that school



I actually agree with all of this. However, the problem is that none of the items you have listed here are measured by anyone. With such an absence of information, parents (rightly) use the information they have which are the league tables. If you assume child A and child B have the similiar intellect and background, then if child A goes to a "top" school and child B to "bottom" school as per the leagues tables, then on average you would expect child A to get more points. 

I agree that points are not the be all and end all, but as long as LC points are the measure used to gain access to 3rd level and the therefore the official measure of education, then they are the top but not only priority for both students and parents.

As for the social standing on the behalf of parents..I agree. A lot of people send their children to private schools so they can try and impress their friends. But then again, they could spend their money on worse things. 

Finally, the "top" schools as per the league tables tend to be "good" schools by almost any other measure also. This goes for both the private and public ones.


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## BazFitz

Approximately 95% of my year went to university, placing the school at the top of the league tables for that particular year.  The average Leaving Certificate result in our year was 510 points.  These are certainly impressive statistics, but they don't tell the full story.

300 people sat the entrance exam in 6th class.  Of those 300, the top 60 candidates were invited back for interview.  Of those 60, 30 were invited to attend the school.  In order to attend the school, the students' parents had to be in a position to pay the substantial fees.  Two places were made available for students whose parents couldn't afford the fees (on the basis of those students' academic ability).  

What goes on in these schools is nothing more than selective breeding.  By harvesting kids with the best chance of doing well academically (i.e. intelligent kids from middle to upper middle class backgrounds), it's inevitable that the schools will top the league tables.


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## mammyof2

ontour said:


> There are people from a diverse range of financial backgrounds, like there is in non-fee paying schools. It tells you about parents willingness to invest in education regardless of how easily they can afford it.


 
Am I the only person that finds it depressing that the assumption is that if parents who hypothetically could afford to choose not to send their children to fee-paying schools, they are not willing to 'invest in education'?

My parents could probably, if pushed, paid the necessary fees to send me to a private school. However, they, like many others, objected on principle to a two tier education system and believed strongly in public education. They also made the judgement - not entirely correctly in my opinion - that the publicly funded school that was available for me to attend was of a sufficiently good academic standard to allow me to reach my potential. They invested financially, logistically and with their time in all sorts of ways to support the type of education they wanted for me from the moment I was born until the moment I left college. I am, and will continue, to do the same for my own children, whether or not I choose or am in a position to pay for private secondary school education for them!


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## eastbono

camel said:


> Oh come on, of course environment has a big role to play. The school itself is very important, peers, teacher quality, equipment, ambition, etc.



What I was trying to say was that it does not matter if your child goes to a fee paying school or a bog standard community school. If your child has the ability and the parental support school does not matter... both my children had an irish teacher for leaving cert who said openly to them that he was only doing his time for his pension....what do you mean by equipment.. and ambition... do you mean ambition of the school... most schools attach themselves to the coat tails of the bright and ambitious pupils. By the way I could not say a bad word about the school my children went to... they did well out of it but I feel if there had not been encouragement from us their parents it would have been a different story and I dont mean us as pushy parents... they were left their own devices as to study etc but were encouraged to study.


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## ontour

mammyof2 said:


> They invested financially, logistically and with their time in all sorts of ways to support the type of education they wanted for me from the moment I was born until the moment I left college.



Exactly, sending your child to a private school is only one way a parent may choose to invest in their child's education and as I have pointed out this may be of benefit to some children and a hindrance to others.

Parents invest in lots of ways, for example, I know a lot of parents who drive their children to a school in the next town because that school has a better choice of subjects and better facilities.  It can be equally said that the opportunity to do this is not available to all parents as they may not have the time or finances to transport their child on a daily basis.

Trying to find the lowest common denominator in the name of equality does not serve society or the economy well.


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## liaconn

My parents sent my sister to a private school because they felt she would benefit from smaller classes and myself and my brother to a public school because we were happy there and were able to keep up in a big class. All three of us have degrees because my parents were able to guage the type of school that would suit us and were able (with difficulty) to pay the fees for private education where necessary.

However, I would never judge a school simply by the number of its students who go on to university. If I had a very creative child I would want a school that would offer a high standard of teaching in Art or English or a very active drama department. If I had a non academic child who was brilliant at sports I would want a school that was successful in that area. 
There are so many other ways to measure how your child will develop in a particular school. Not every child is suited to University.


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## Complainer

ontour said:


> Trying to find the lowest common denominator in the name of equality does not serve society or the economy well.



Is this meant to imply that the State schools should not be expected to provide a decent level of education for all?


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## csirl

Where these league tables come into their own is where you have a number of schools in the same area, who's students are almost indentical in terms of socio-economic background. In my area, there is one particular school that has ranked significantly lower than the average and another that ranks significantly higher. Prior to the publication of league tables, the parents in the area would not have been able to differentiate between the two. All schools tell applying parents that their students do well and go onto third level etc. etc., but its difficult to verify without data. These league tables have been useful in slaying some myths about various schools performances in my area.


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## ontour

Complainer said:


> Is this meant to imply that the State schools should not be expected to provide a decent level of education for all?



No, not true, you are endeavouring to read between the lines rather than take what I said at face value.

I believe the state should provide a much higher level of education than it does now.  If I had my way I would divert half of what is currently spent on child benefit in to the schools.  Schools would provide meals for the students and would have after school activities including sports, further education etc.
If some schools had to be amalgamated to make this practical, so be it.  Make Child Benefit work for children!


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## Mel

Firefly said:


> Hi Mel,
> 
> Were you able to get a link to this list by any chance?
> 
> The recent Sunday Times list for Ireland is here: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00681/The_top_400_seconda_681535a.pdf
> 
> Thanks,
> Firefly.


 
Thanks for this; do you by any chance know if it is an older list, or the latest? It looks similar to what I've seen before. It's based on 2008/2009 results, but maybe there is a delay in releasing the statistics?


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## Complainer

csirl said:


> These league tables have been useful in slaying some myths about various schools performances in my area.


Unfortunately, they have perpetuated the myth that 'performance' equates to students getting places in universities.



ontour said:


> No, not true, you are endeavouring to read between the lines rather than take what I said at face value.
> 
> I believe the state should provide a much higher level of education than it does now.  If I had my way I would divert half of what is currently spent on child benefit in to the schools.  Schools would provide meals for the students and would have after school activities including sports, further education etc.
> If some schools had to be amalgamated to make this practical, so be it.  Make Child Benefit work for children!



Sorry if I misunderstood. I wasn't sure what was meant by your 'lowest common denominator' report, and to be honest, I'm still not sure.


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## Firefly

Mel said:


> Thanks for this; do you by any chance know if it is an older list, or the latest? It looks similar to what I've seen before. It's based on 2008/2009 results, but maybe there is a delay in releasing the statistics?



Hi Mel,

Yes, I don't see 2009/2010 results on the site - they were in the paper a few weeks back alright. I have this at home - if there's a particular school you are interested in PM me and I'll dig out the info.

Here's a summary by region of the top schools for the past 7 years. 

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00681/Ireland_s_top_secon_681534a.pdf

Interesting to note the consistency of some schools. If sending your children to university is your number 1 priority then I think these tables are as good as we have. If not, then the Dep needs to get its thumb out to report on schools with the best arts/crafts/sports etc facilities. Interesting that a lot of the fee paying schools have a deep history in sports, granted for a narrow selection of sports...then again that's probably true of all schools.


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## Firefly

Thirsty said:


> *1. Inaccuracy*
> In previous years (and I have little reason to believe this year is any different) these so called lists were inaccurate, didn't count those who went to private colleges (such as the Royal College of Surgeons), didn't count those who went to Universities abroad and didn't count those who deferred their 3rd level place.



I don't have access to the Irish Times league table, but the Sunday Times League Table here: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00681/The_top_400_seconda_681535a.pdf

States:

These are the top 400 schools ranked by the average proportion of pupils gaining places in autumn 2008 and 2009 at one of the nine
universities on the island of Ireland, main teacher training colleges, *Royal College of Surgeons*, National College of Art and Design or *any
English,Welsh or Scottish university or equivalent.
* 
So they may be a better guide than the Irish Times tables.


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## Firefly

Complainer said:


> ...For many families, the idea of €3k-€5k per child per year, on top of the many existing costs of education is completely unmanageable and unattainable. It is not within their wildest dreams.
> 
> Nor should it be - they should be entitled to get the best education for their child in their local public school. And many of them do. One of the ironies of the Celtic Tiger flood to private secondary schools was that some of the public schools were left with great pupil teacher ratios, leaving lots of time for good old-fashioned teaching by good old-fashioned teachers.



23 of the top 50 schools as measured by % going to 3rd level by the Sunday Times list for 2008/2009 are public schools, so there is plenty good schools available for people who cannot afford private schools. Granted, if you are hell-bent on sending your children to the best schools by this measure, there are only 2 public schools in the top 10....http://www.timesonline.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00681/The_top_400_seconda_681535a.pdf


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## Firefly

BazFitz said:


> Approximately 95% of my year went to university, placing the school at the top of the league tables for that particular year.  The average Leaving Certificate result in our year was 510 points.  These are certainly impressive statistics, but they don't tell the full story.
> 
> 300 people sat the entrance exam in 6th class.  Of those 300, the top 60 candidates were invited back for interview.  Of those 60, 30 were invited to attend the school.  In order to attend the school, the students' parents had to be in a position to pay the substantial fees.  Two places were made available for students whose parents couldn't afford the fees (on the basis of those students' academic ability).
> 
> What goes on in these schools is nothing more than selective breeding.  By harvesting kids with the best chance of doing well academically (i.e. intelligent kids from middle to upper middle class backgrounds), it's inevitable that the schools will top the league tables.



I find this story refreshing actually...(whether private schools are good/bad is a different discussion), 

There are plenty private schools in Dublin but to get into this one you have to be smart. It sounds like a completely open competition to those who can meet the fees and isn't based on whether your siblings/parents/grand parents went to the school as is quite common in private schools.


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## AlbacoreA

Is there a chart anywhere of the schools by their leaving cert results?


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## ontour

Firefly said:


> I find this story refreshing actually...(whether private schools are good/bad is a different discussion)



I would not get too excited, BazFitz can correct me but I would speculate that there is a feeder primary school attached to this secondary school and it has high fees.  Otherwise there is 30 students or one class in each year which I think is unlikely.

There are many public schools where demand exceeds available places and they appear to set a variety of criteria from geographic area to ethnic diversity to family connections.  Selective entry is not the preserve of private schools.


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## Firefly

ontour said:


> I would not get too excited, BazFitz can correct me but I would speculate that there is a feeder primary school attached to this secondary school and it has high fees.  Otherwise there is 30 students or one class in each year which I think is unlikely.



You could be right. I'm not to familiar with Dublin schools (public or private) so wouldn't know. 



ontour said:


> There are many public schools where demand exceeds available places and they appear to set a variety of criteria from geographic area to ethnic diversity to family connections.  Selective entry is not the preserve of private schools.



That's true. At least with the public schools it doesn't/shouldn't come down to who you know. In the private school system it does in many cases, along with the ability to pay the fees.


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## AlbacoreA

Considering the way the catchments and criteria of public schools change I wouldn't be too sure that who you know and the ability to pay fees comes into it.


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## liaconn

Firefly said:


> You could be right. I'm not to familiar with Dublin schools (public or private) so wouldn't know.
> 
> 
> 
> That's true. At least with the public schools it doesn't/shouldn't come down to who you know. In the private school system it does in many cases, along with the ability to pay the fees.


 
But public schools can't select based on academic ability, whereas private schools can.


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## Thirsty

> But public schools can't select based on academic ability, whereas private schools can



Secondary schools (fee paying or non-fee paying) cannot base intake on academic ability, the enrolment criteria can however include religion and church attendance, catchment area, parents or siblings attending the school etc.,  

Whilst many schools in both sectors have so-called 'entrance exams' they cannot base their admissions on it.


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## Firefly

Thirsty said:


> Secondary schools (fee paying or non-fee paying) cannot base intake on academic ability, t*he enrolment criteria can however include religion and church attendance, catchment area, parents or siblings attending the school etc.,  *
> 
> Whilst many schools in both sectors have so-called 'entrance exams' they cannot base their admissions on it.




This to me is a polite way of saying that, given a choice, the school can discriminate based on someone's religion, where they live and who they know....but not on the child's ability...a bit mad. I think there should be elite schools in the bigger cities for highly intelligent children. Rather than having them sit there bored whilst the rest of the class pick up basic concepts to them, it would be better to put them together and they might achieve great things in such an environment.


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## liaconn

Thirsty said:


> Secondary schools (fee paying or non-fee paying) cannot base intake on academic ability, the enrolment criteria can however include religion and church attendance, catchment area, parents or siblings attending the school etc.,
> 
> Whilst many schools in both sectors have so-called 'entrance exams' they cannot base their admissions on it.


 
I always assumed that fee paying schools could hold entry exams and interviews to choose pupils.


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