# Proposal to cut public spending



## ATC110 (22 May 2020)

John Moran, Former Secretary General Department of Finance, talks about the need to cut public spending without affecting capital expenditure and alludes to cutting public sector pay.

Finally an ex-senior civil servant making the case for prudent decisions.

[broken link removed]


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## Deiseblue (22 May 2020)

John Moran is not a senior civil servant and hasn’t been since 2014 !
An extremely interesting interview where he pointed out that everything should be on the table including continuing borrowing at the current low rates although noting that this will adversely effect future generations.
He also questioned election promises to protect current ages at which people receive the old age pension.
He also appeared to question whether current income tax rates could be maintained ?
He certainly referred to possibly cutting public sector pay but seemed to suggest that unlike the private sector and particularly the small business sector the public sector had the benefit of strong unionised voices .
He also pointed out that the current Government and any upcoming Government have said that they won’t increase income tax or reduce public spending.
It should be interesting to see if the 2% reimbursement of Public Sector pay in October next as agreed on 2019 will be paid.


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## Purple (22 May 2020)

Deiseblue said:


> 2% reimbursement of Public Sector pay in October next as agreed on 2019 will be paid.


The Public Sector Unions will stop any cuts to pay for their members. They will continue to exploit the poor and vulnerable in order to maintain their income.
I find the invention of new phrases to describe pay increases fascinating.


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## Sunny (22 May 2020)

Rosjohn said:


> Shine lights, clap hands but don't give those health workers their agreed payrise!



Ah it has already started...….Sure lets ignore economic reality and lets give them 20%. Or is that not enough appreciation for doing the job they chose they do and were trained to do. It is a bloody tough job but they are not heroes.

By the way, shining lights and clapping was always ridiculous. Just like having pilots on the Late Late Show for flying a plane with PPE from China.


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## Deiseblue (22 May 2020)

In fairness Sunny the only reimbursement of previously foregone pay on the cards is the previously agreed 2% in October next .
I think the current public perception of nurses and doctors is that they are risking their lives in combating Covid-19 and that indeed they are heroes , this is a view that is also generally shared across the media whether by way of TV , radio or papers and social media.


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## Vanessa (22 May 2020)

Sunny said:


> Ah it has already started...….Sure lets ignore economic reality and lets give them 20%. Or is that not enough appreciation for doing the job they chose they do and were trained to do. It is a bloody tough job but they are not heroes.
> 
> By the way, shining lights and clapping was always ridiculous. Just like having pilots on the Late Late Show for flying a plane with PPE from China.


Maybe we should be asking why we werent able to source PPE if not in Irelqnd at least in the EU.
In any case its important to give Covid survivor Turbridy his time in the sun


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## Sunny (22 May 2020)

Deiseblue said:


> In fairness Sunny the only reimbursement of previously foregone pay on the cards is the previously agreed 2% in October next .
> I think the current public perception of nurses and doctors is that they are risking their lives in combating Covid-19 and that indeed they are heroes , this is a view that is also generally shared across the media whether by way of TV , radio or papers and social media.



Well if the media say it, it must be true. It makes good reading but that is all. We all have relations who are doctors and nurses. It is a tough job but fighting viruses like this is what they are trained to do. It is what they are paid the do. The scandal isn't what they are paid. It is that they are expected to their job with no and sub standard equipment and facilities. 

While everyone was clapping for the NHS and HSE staff, did anyone clap for the low paid care staff going into Nursing homes and being completely ignored by the HSE and Government until it was to late. Was anyone clapping for all the other people who continued to go into work stacking supermarket shelves with zero protection to see TD's decide it was too dangerous for them for to sit in the Dail for two hours but it was ok for other people.

Was anyone clapping the people trying to work and mind and educate their children so we have some sort of economy to come back. Clap the small business owners who are trying desperately to stay afloat. Was anyone clapping the delivery drivers, the bus drivers, the people who have lost their jobs. Was anyone clapping the children who have been stuck isolating for nearly three months. Was anyone clapping the social workers, the homeless shelters, the abuse shelters

If you want to care healthcare workers heroes, then that's fine. But there are lots of heroes out there. And they all deserve a bit fat reward. That's not how reality works though.


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## Deiseblue (22 May 2020)

I agree with you totally , there are innumerable people out there doing sterling work for which they should be admired and thanked - personally I thank the postman , the bus driver , the supermarket staff , cafe staff and all others for making our life bearable at this hugely trying time.
My greatest admiration is for those doctors and nurses who are risking infection and possible death every day and yes I believe that they are heroes , would you agree that my perception is generally shared by the majority of the Country currently?


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## Sunny (22 May 2020)

Deiseblue said:


> I agree with you totally , there are innumerable people out there doing sterling work for which they should be admired and thanked - personally I thank the postman , the bus driver , the supermarket staff , cafe staff and all others for making our life bearable at this hugely trying time.
> My greatest admiration is for those doctors and nurses who are risking infection and possible death every day and yes I believe that they are heroes , would you agree that my perception is generally shared by the majority of the Country currently?



No idea and does it really matter what people think of them? We are borrowing 30,000,000,000 this year and that is not worse case scenario. So I don't think it is disrespectful to maybe just think that people might just want to wait before jumping and down for their 2% payrise promised or not until we actually have a functioning economy.


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## Purple (22 May 2020)

Sunny said:


> No idea and does it really matter what people think of them? We are borrowing 30,000,000,000 this year and that is not worse case scenario. So I don't think it is disrespectful to maybe just think that people might just want to wait before jumping and down for their 2% payrise promised or not until we actually have a functioning economy.


If there was a list of people who deserve a pay increase I wouldn't put doctors who earn hundreds of thousands a year and nurses, with an average pay of over €54,000 a year (over €70,000 if you factor in the value of their pension) at the top of the list. Most are working hard and doing all they can now but these are the same people who have resisted reform for decades and are a key factor in why our health service is so shambolic, despite one of the highest per capita spends in the world.


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## odyssey06 (22 May 2020)

Deiseblue said:


> I agree with you totally , there are innumerable people out there doing sterling work for which they should be admired and thanked - personally I thank the postman , the bus driver , the supermarket staff , cafe staff and all others for making our life bearable at this hugely trying time.
> My greatest admiration is for those doctors and nurses who are risking infection and possible death every day and yes I believe that they are heroes , would you agree that my perception is generally shared by the majority of the Country currently?



And yet if you think about it the people who faced the highest risk of death, and suffered the highest death toll, were the people just trying to survive in nursing & care homes.
Maybe the money should be going as much as possible on keeping people in their own homes.


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## Deiseblue (22 May 2020)

Sunny said:


> No idea and does it really matter what people think of them? We are borrowing 30,000,000,000 this year and that is not worse case scenario. So I don't think it is disrespectful to maybe just think that people might just want to wait before jumping and down for their 2% payrise promised or not until we actually have a functioning economy.


Of course it matters what people think of them given the thread title -  the huge admiration for their efforts to date means it's inconceivable that any Government would impose cuts on wages particularly as the Government and their successors have stated that income tax rates will remain unchanged and public spending will not be cut.
Nobody is jumping up and down looking for the 2% - I merely wondered whether or not it would be paid ?
Guess we'll simply have to wait to what happens in terms of the economy re-opening


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## ATC110 (22 May 2020)

Deiseblue said:


> the public sector had the benefit of strong unionised voices .



Therein lies the problem



Deiseblue said:


> It should be interesting to see if the 2% reimbursement of Public Sector pay in October next as agreed on 2019 will be paid.


"Reimbursement".... Surely even the shameless PS unions will cancel this 2% increase


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## Leo (22 May 2020)

odyssey06 said:


> And yet if you think about it the people who faced the highest risk of death, and suffered the highest death toll, were the people just trying to survive in nursing & care homes.



Some of what you hear from those going into these homes really calls into question the notion of some of these carers as heros!!


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## Deiseblue (22 May 2020)

ATC110 said:


> Therein lies the problem
> 
> 
> "Reimbursement".... Surely even the shameless PS unions will cancel this 2% increase


I am hopeful that the current crisis will emphasise the benefits of Union membership , I have always found that you are far better off being in a Union than not.
The 2% in question has been negotiated and agreed by the current Government - who knows at this juncture whether or not they will pay it or enter into negotiations with the Unions.


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## ATC110 (22 May 2020)

Deiseblue said:


> I am hopeful that the current crisis will emphasise the benefits of Union membership , I have always found that you are far better off being in a Union than not.



The purpose of the public service is not to benefit those supposed to be delivering the service



Deiseblue said:


> The 2% in question has been negotiated and agreed by the current Government - who knows at this juncture whether or not they will pay it or enter into negotiations with the Unions.


Hopefully they just won't pay it for obvious reasons, no discussion or negotiation necessary


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## Deiseblue (22 May 2020)

And the purpose of Unions is to protect and where possible enchance the terms and conditions of it's members.
Let's not be naive here - they'll either pay the 2% or negotiate .


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## ATC110 (22 May 2020)

Deiseblue said:


> And the purpose of Unions is to protect and where possible enchance the terms and conditions of it's members.



Regardless of how this affects the public and the indebtedness of the country. 

There's an opportunity now for the government to introduce emergency legislation to dissolve the public sector unions for the common good.


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## Deiseblue (22 May 2020)

Yeah , I would 'nt hold your breath - an absolute pipe dream.
It's everyone's right under the constitution to join a Union.
You might also like to reflect on the impact an all out strike would have on any tentative economic recovery


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## Purple (22 May 2020)

Yes, Unions have never hesitated to put a gun to the head of the poor and the vulnerable in order to blackmail the government of the day into giving their members even more.


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## Sunny (22 May 2020)

Deiseblue said:


> Yeah , I would 'nt hold your breath - an absolute pipe dream.
> It's everyone's right under the constitution to join a Union.
> You might also like to reflect on the impact an all out strike would have on any tentative economic recovery



Ha ha. Couldnt have summed up what is wrong with public sector trade unions any better than that post.


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## Deiseblue (22 May 2020)

Sunny said:


> Ha ha. Couldnt have summed up what is wrong with public sector trade unions any better than that post.


Thanks , I think it is vital to point out that banning Unions is a pipe dream as the right to join a Union is enshrined in the Irish Constitution.
In the hugely unlikely event that the Government adopt an anti Union stance then it is only reasonable to point out that massive industrisl action may follow.


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## ATC110 (24 May 2020)

Deiseblue said:


> Thanks , I think it is vital to point out that banning Unions is a pipe dream as the right to join a Union is enshrined in the Irish Constitution.
> In the hugely unlikely event that the Government adopt an anti Union stance then it is only reasonable to point out that massive industrisl action may follow.



The public service is not an "industry"


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## Deiseblue (24 May 2020)

Pedantic much ?
Job action or employee action if you prefer !


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## Purple (25 May 2020)

ATC110 said:


> The public service is not an "industry"


And unions don't represent "working class" people. They represent middle to higher income employees in what are protected sectors of the economy. It is usually the very "working class" people they were set up to represent that end up suffering the most due to their actions. The irony that their members can usually buy private health insurance to get around the shambolic state the Unions keep the Public Health System in should not be lost on anyone.


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