# Subject choices for 13 year old in secondary school with a leaning towards architecture/engineering.



## kitty81 (29 Sep 2020)

I couldn't find a more appropriate thread for this so apologies if I am in the wrong area.

My 13 year old has had a sample of all the 'choice' subjects in secondary school and has to make her selection at the end of this week.

All along she was choosing not to do a language, which was fine by us, but now we are hearing that a third language is a requirement for alot of colleges.

Obviously its a bit early to determine if she will even go to college, although, she has maintained for a few years now that she would like to do architecture/engineering.

Can anyone help shed some light for us. Shes our eldest so learning on the job now!


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## Sue Ellen (29 Sep 2020)

Hi,



This Irish Times (2015) article might help also but things change so much these days that 5 years is a long time.

You could also have a look over on


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## Early Riser (29 Sep 2020)

A third language is a requirement for many college courses (particularly in NUI colleges) - but it is not required for most college courses.

You can explore more here:




__





						Subject Choice
					

subject choice minimum subjects module




					www.qualifax.ie
				







__





						Minimum Subject Requirements
					

Qualifax - National Learners' Database of course and career information. The site has a listing of all courses in Ireland.




					www.qualifax.ie


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## Mousehelp (29 Sep 2020)

There are 13 level 8 (hon degree) architecture related courses in Dublin and only 2 require a modern language. 
15 level 8 engineering Courses in Dublin and none require a modern language.
Be mindful also that a science subject is required by some level 8 engineering  and HL matHs required by most.


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## Arnie Hammer (30 Sep 2020)

Technical graphics is a nice subject for someone with an engineering interest and is easy points if you are good at it. Not all schools offer it.

For architecture at third-level freehand drawing ability is pretty useful. Art as a subject might help this but it is not easy points.


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## huskerdu (30 Sep 2020)

She should do the subjects she's interested in and likes doing. 
Research how many courses require a modern language and help her decide if it is necessary. 
After that, encourage her to do the subjects she likes.  

Doing a subject like Art, because it might be good to learn to draw to be an architect is a mistake. Leaving Cert Art is difficult, very technical and you have to have a real love for it to get through the course and do well.


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## EmmDee (30 Sep 2020)

kitty81 said:


> All along she was choosing not to do a language, which was fine by us, but now we are hearing that a third language is a requirement for alot of colleges.



This is said in a lot of schools. But it's not completely true though I understand why it's said. Many courses outside the "technical / science" area do require a language. Not choosing a language at this early stage is cutting out a lot of options they might want to have in 5 years time. So the school advice is about keeping options open - which I understand.

However, as stated, most science / engineering / technical courses don't require a language. But, for example, Architecture in UCD requires a language. Only sciences / engineering don't. So they need to understand that a choice at this stage can cut out a lot of options.

However, I would say that it is feasible to not do a language initially but take one on during transition year (in or out of school) and be ready to join a leaving cert program


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## Zenith63 (30 Sep 2020)

I was in a similar position many years ago but was aiming for Computer Science.  I did the research others have suggested and discovered I didn't need the third language for CS in any of the colleges I wanted to attend, and could also safely drop Irish down to Ordinary level (I am very poor at languages generally) and focus on the other subjects.  I took Technical Drawing/Graphics, Applied Maths, Physics and Accounting and ultimately really enjoyed school because I wasn't doing any subjects I didn't enjoy or thrive at.  One caveat though is that I was 100% focussed on Computer Science, if somebody were less sure and wanted options this may not have been the best approach.

I regret not having a European language regularly, but reaslitically the way languages are taught in Ireland I would not have come out of the Leaving Cert speaking the language, I'd come out of it with a mediocre result in a subject I had to dedicate significant time to, to the detriment of others.  If my kids end up in a similar position I'll be inclined to find a way to allow them learn to speak another language, be that travel or afterschool activities.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (30 Sep 2020)

Zenith63 said:


> I regret not having a European language regularly, but reaslitically the way languages are taught in Ireland I would not have come out of the Leaving Cert speaking the language, I'd come out of it with a mediocre result in a subject I had to dedicate significant time to, to the detriment of others.



Agreed. Even a B in higher French/German in the Leaving Certificate wouldn't get you further than working in a kitchen in one of those countries. You would have to do serious extra learning to actually live and work functionally.

Education is good, and learning languages is good even if it provides no practical benefit. I wouldn't remove it from the curriculum, but they are not for everyone.

Personally I kept French but I dropped all science subjects for LC as I knew I didn't want to do anything science-related. I did subjects that I found interesting and I did well and that was right for me.


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## Purple (30 Sep 2020)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> Education is good, and learning languages is good even if it provides no practical benefit. I wouldn't remove it from the curriculum, but they are not for everyone.


The former Dean of Engineering in UCD once told me to never confuse education with qualification. He said qualification was what you did for a few years whereas education was what you did all your life. Nice man. 

Do subjects you like in school and remember that if you are curious your education never stops.


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## Early Riser (30 Sep 2020)

Maybe kids are different now but when I was 13 my idea of career choice was poorly formed and speculative. Even those with more definite ideas at that age may change them by 18 (or 28 for that matter). In my opinion it is not a great idea to narrow subject choice at 13 on the basis of a current belief about future career. However, if a student has a difficulty or lacks apptitude for a particular area I don't see a point in struggling through second level with it unless it is an essential subject.
So I would choose on the basis of aptitude, interest and keeping options open.


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## kitty81 (30 Sep 2020)

I am so grateful for all your helpful replies. I will explain this to her and ultimately leave it to her to decide. She is very interested in technical drawing already, with the teacher specifically asking her if she was going to choose it as she has done well so far during the taster classes.

She loves art and again quite good but I am aware of friends growing up who spent an awful lot of time at it. I assume it would be a requirement for architecture.

She has always tried to figure out how things work and her Dad is very like that too so she hasn't licked it off the ground!

All that being said, I am in no way expecting her to stick to this choice as the years go on. I appreciate that it may change and I suppose that's the concern, by not choosing a language now is she limiting her options

Thanks again everyone, I really appreciate all opinions.


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## Sue Ellen (30 Sep 2020)

One thing I forgot to mention above is that having watched a few people do different types of engineering the one thing that struck me was their ability or understanding for maths.  Their courses appeared easier for them because they coped well with the maths side of things.  A few of them also mentioned when I questioned them about this that the people who struggled most in their classes were the ones who found maths hard.

Certainly wasn't something that would have suited this bimbo


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## EmmDee (30 Sep 2020)

kitty81 said:


> She loves art and again quite good but I am aware of friends growing up who spent an awful lot of time at it. I assume it would be a requirement for architecture.



It's not - in fact art has very little relation to architecture. Art might be better suited to Design. Architecture requirements for UCD are : "O6/H7 in English, Irish, Mathematics, a third language and two other recognised subjects" (https://www.myucd.ie/courses/architecture/architecture/). So art would qualify as one of the two other subjects in terms of calculating points but it is not a requried subject for Architecture. But a third language is a requirement (this is the critical point for your kid probably)

That section of the UCD website will list the requriements for any course (all the other colleges haev similar but to be honest, requriements are quite similar)

I agree with the points above - the kid will have to do Maths English & Irish. They should ideally have a science / technical subject and a language if they want to keep all options open. But being able to do subjects that they like is a big benefit so definnitely try to include at least a couple of subjects they really like.

The other thing to remember is that Engineering (and other sciences) don't require a language but they do require a "laboratory science" (which doesn't include technical subjects like material science or technical drawing). This means that if they want to keep open both Archictecture and Engineering, they will need to plan to do a science and a language for the Leaving Cert.

I'm not sure if any of this is helping - it sounds complicated but I find if you work back from potential college courses it can clarify i.e. If I need a language to apply to college I will need to do a language for the Leaving Cert. That means I must do a language for the Junior Cert OR I plan to take one up before the LC


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## Peanuts20 (30 Sep 2020)

Are they doing the new Junior Cert Technology course in the school?. My 13 yr old girl is doing it and loves it. she's been sawing, soldering, cutting and designing things, their project for the junior Cert seems to involve building a robot.

I'd also encourage them to do something completely different as well, tastes change and 13 is young to be pigeon holing yourself,. Also it broadens the horizon


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## NoRegretsCoyote (30 Sep 2020)

EmmDee said:


> It's not - in fact art has very little relation to architecture.



I've talked to a few people who've studied architecture.

They all say that freehand drawing ability is very important.


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## Purple (30 Sep 2020)

EmmDee said:


> It's not - in fact art has very little relation to architecture. Art might be better suited to Design. Architecture requirements for UCD are : "O6/H7 in English, Irish, Mathematics, a third language and two other recognised subjects" (https://www.myucd.ie/courses/architecture/architecture/). So art would qualify as one of the two other subjects in terms of calculating points but it is not a requried subject for Architecture. But a third language is a requirement (this is the critical point for your kid probably)
> 
> That section of the UCD website will list the requriements for any course (all the other colleges haev similar but to be honest, requriements are quite similar)
> 
> ...


Irish isn't required in TU Dublin (Bolton Street) which, according to a friend who studied the subject in UCD, is the best school of Architecture in Ireland.


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## Early Riser (30 Sep 2020)

According to the RIAI website, there are currently 5 accredited primary degree programmes for someone seeking to pursue professional registration as an Architect. As far as I can see, UCD is the only one of these that requires a third language. The others are Waterford, Limerick, Cork and TUD (formerly DIT).

According to Qualifax, there are currently 1360 courses accessible via third level CAO that do not require a third language, while there are 185 that do. Perhaps she should have a look at both of these before deciding.


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## so-crates (30 Sep 2020)

Architecture and engineering have very different focuses and engineering in particular covers a range of different professions. Start with a review of current course requirements, they do vary considerably.

In general, for engineering, Honours Maths/Applied Maths/Physics - the nice thing is that they have good cross-over as subjects so one can help the other along and all three are either useful or, in the case of honours maths, required for some courses. Even if it isn't a course requirement, higher level maths I would say should be considered necessary, maths is a cornerstone of engineering of all shades and if you struggle at higher level maths in school you will struggle more with it in third level.

Actually it isn't a bad idea to group subjects by cross-over areas anyway, and try and pick a grouping that plays to your strengths.

Other than that, technical graphics is a good choice, chemistry if she is interested in chemical engineering would also be useful. 

The best idea though is to go with what she enjoys and wants to engage with. If she likes biology, that covers the science angle if a science is required. If she enjoys history, she should do it, same for geography, business whatever. At the end of the day, she will do better in school if she feels engaged with her subjects. 

I would ask her to think seriously about dropping a third language though, if it is a struggle then it is probably the right choice but it isn't something that should be done lightly, she is picking subjects for her Junior Cert here, not her Leaving Cert. If languages really don't work then at least she gave it a try and can drop it for the Leaving. Rolling forward into the future, in 2027 she may be thinking of doing a year abroad under the ERASMUS scheme. I know there are courses across Europe delivered in English (especially in STEM) but having even the foundation of a European language will help with such an undertaking.


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## Steven Barrett (30 Sep 2020)

Why do you need a language in the leaving for a course that is conducted in English?


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## EmmDee (30 Sep 2020)

SBarrett said:


> Why do you need a language in the leaving for a course that is conducted in English?



Very literal view of subjects and education - it's the class of learning (i.e. learning syntax, vocabulary, nuances etc). Mathematics is almost a language in itself for example.

Why require Irish? Why require Maths if you're doing arts - it's not about the specific knowledge


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## dereko1969 (30 Sep 2020)

SBarrett said:


> Why do you need a language in the leaving for a course that is conducted in English?


Old fashioned "notions" I'd guess (as a UCD alumni, I can say this), I wonder was it an attempt to keep out those Tech ruffians!


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## kitty81 (30 Sep 2020)

Certainly plenty of food for thought and I'm glad it was brought to my attention about languages and the potential limit on her choices by not choosing one! Just to add, it wasn't the school who highlighted this, which I find extordinary considering the impact it could have! 

To date, she definitely has a graw for all things logic. She doesn't do ifs or buts!  Don't ask her to explain what a poet was thinking when writing a poem or choosing a certain word etc.....her response is no one knows except the poet! But ask her about numbers and she'll work it out. 

I guess I feel everything (right now!) is pointing towards anything but languages but to keep her options open she'll need to take one on. Or be prepared to take one on eventually. 

Trying to justify having to choose a language when it's something she has no desire to use is hard. And if I'm honest, I don't really understand the logic either! But it is what is is.

My younger child could want to be hairdresser one day and an Olympic athlete another so not as clear cut! But maybe that will make decisions on subject choices much easier.


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## kitty81 (30 Sep 2020)

Peanuts20 said:


> Are they doing the new Junior Cert Technology course in the school?. My 13 yr old girl is doing it and loves it. she's been sawing, soldering, cutting and designing things, their project for the junior Cert seems to involve building a robot.
> 
> I'd also encourage them to do something completely different as well, tastes change and 13 is young to be pigeon holing yourself,. Also it broadens the horizon


Yes , so far she really enjoys it and says she finds it really fun!  All I ever want for her is to at least 'like' her job when she gets there. 

Not to be like her mother who hates hers


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## Mousehelp (30 Sep 2020)

There are very few schools that don’t have a foreign language Compulsory for junior cert. I’d image it’s compulsory in her school. Only exception would be students who are exempt due to a learning difficulty.


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## kitty81 (30 Sep 2020)

EmmDee said:


> It's not - in fact art has very little relation to architecture. Art might be better suited to Design. Architecture requirements for UCD are : "O6/H7 in English, Irish, Mathematics, a third language and two other recognised subjects" (https://www.myucd.ie/courses/architecture/architecture/). So art would qualify as one of the two other subjects in terms of calculating points
> 
> The other thing to remember is that Engineering (and other sciences) don't require a language but they do require a "laboratory science" (which doesn't include technical subjects like material science or technical drawing). This means that if they want to keep open both Archictecture and Engineering, they will need to plan to do a science and a language for the Leaving Cert.
> 
> I'm not sure if any of this is helping - it sounds complicated but I find if you work back from potential college courses it can clarify i.e. If I need a language to apply to college I will need to do a language for the Leaving Cert. That means I must do a language for the Junior Cert OR I plan to take one up before the LC





Mousehelp said:


> There are very few schools that don’t have a foreign language Compulsory for junior cert. I’d image it’s compulsory in her school. Only exception would be students who are exempt due to a learning difficulty.



I would have thought it should be compulsory but I've checked and double checked and its not compulsory for anyone in the school! 

For this reason, I find it bizarre that it is not highlighted to us, how it can impact the students down the road!


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## Mousehelp (30 Sep 2020)

Did she choose a language in first year? Often, the subject choices don’t include the language as it’s a given that they will continue this through to at least JC. 
I’ve taught in a lot of schools and they all had a compulsory language to JC. excluding a language at JC would  be very limiting for the students for LC and hence college courses.


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## kitty81 (30 Sep 2020)

Mousehelp said:


> Did she choose a language in first year? Often, the subject choices don’t include the language as it’s a given that they will continue this through to at least JC.
> I’ve taught in a lot of schools and they all had a compulsory language to JC. excluding a language at JC would  be very limiting for the students for LC and hence college courses.



She has only started in first year and the students get to try out all subjects for the month of September before making their choices.

The choice are then laid out in 3 choice groups and she can avoid any language across the three choice groups. 

The 'core' subjects she must do are English, Irish, Maths, History, Geography and Science 

I understand now how including a language as a compulsory would be beneficial to her but she can avoid taking one at all


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## Mousehelp (1 Oct 2020)

Ok. Very unusual. I know one school where science for JC is not compulsory but not aware of any where a language was an option.


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## Jim2007 (1 Oct 2020)

SBarrett said:


> Why do you need a language in the leaving for a course that is conducted in English?



Because your understanding and ability to communicate in English will be improved by your understanding of other languages.


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## Jim2007 (1 Oct 2020)

A thirteen year old knows very little of life and by the time she is eighteen her views on life maybe completely different and not having a third language could be very limiting.  A good mix is better than a concentration at this stage.  

From 13 to 16 by daughter wanted to be a vet, today she is a graphic artist.  And to our amusement, she spends 45 hours a week speaking French, a language she hated in school... but the cool company she wanted to join only speak French.

I hated languages in school and was happy to see the back of Irish when I went college.  I then studied accounting and was assigned to an Irish speaking partner - four years of accounting and finance through Irish!  Followed by 30 years doing it through a Swiss dialect that has no written format!  But never in English.

You never know how life will turn out, so don’t let her limit her options too early.


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## Ceist Beag (1 Oct 2020)

kitty81 said:


> Certainly plenty of food for thought and I'm glad it was brought to my attention about languages and the potential limit on her choices by not choosing one! Just to add, it wasn't the school who highlighted this, which I find extordinary considering the impact it could have!
> 
> To date, she definitely has a graw for all things logic. She doesn't do ifs or buts!  Don't ask her to explain what a poet was thinking when writing a poem or choosing a certain word etc.....her response is no one knows except the poet! But ask her about numbers and she'll work it out.


Just on the career choice of architect, I would have said that the attributes mentioned above don't really fit the mould of an architect. Sounds more like computer programmer or accountant or something but an architect is much more a creative type of career, one where ifs or buts are very much part of the thinking. Others have said art is not a requirement for architecture and maybe from a purely technical point of view you don't need to be good at drawing but I would have thought from a mental point of view it is very important to think artistically and to be open minded on the possibilities. 
Structural engineer on the other hand might be more in line with someone who thinks very logically.
As for languages, my own view would be that learning a language is beneficial not only for the language itself but moreso for changing the way you think about things. That said, if she really doesn't like it then she probably shouldn't pursue it - however bear in mind that 13 years old is still a very young age to be making such choices.


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## Purple (1 Oct 2020)

Ceist Beag said:


> Just on the career choice of architect, I would have said that the attributes mentioned above don't really fit the mould of an architect. Sounds more like computer programmer or accountant or something but an architect is much more a creative type of career, one where ifs or buts are very much part of the thinking. Others have said art is not a requirement for architecture and maybe from a purely technical point of view you don't need to be good at drawing but I would have thought from a mental point of view it is very important to think artistically and to be open minded on the possibilities.
> Structural engineer on the other hand might be more in line with someone who thinks very logically.
> As for languages, my own view would be that learning a language is beneficial not only for the language itself but moreso for changing the way you think about things. That said, if she really doesn't like it then she probably shouldn't pursue it - however bear in mind that 13 years old is still a very young age to be making such choices.


Yep, seems more suited to Engineering. Architecture is much more of a creative field. I agree with other posters that Art would be a great help.


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## kitty81 (1 Oct 2020)

Interesting that architecture isn't considered a 'logical' career choice given her preferred subjects and probably over time something we need to at least discuss with her. To be fair, when I think about it more, she loves the computer drawing bit of it but maybe hasn't considered that she needs to come up with that idea to begin with!


On the plus side, after explaining that she might limit her own choices by excluding a language she is going to choose one. Now to decide which original subject choice gets the boot! All she knows is Tech Graphics is staying

Thanks again for all contributions - it has been really helpful making a decision with her


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## Steven Barrett (2 Oct 2020)

EmmDee said:


> Very literal view of subjects and education - it's the class of learning (i.e. learning syntax, vocabulary, nuances etc). Mathematics is almost a language in itself for example.
> 
> Why require Irish? Why require Maths if you're doing arts - it's not about the specific knowledge



Ah Irish, a subject taught in schools for 14 years and causes more stress for children than benefit. How can children spend that many years being taught a language yet generation after generation finish school unable to speak it. It should be optional.


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## Zenith63 (2 Oct 2020)

SBarrett said:


> Ah Irish, a subject taught in schools for 14 years and causes more stress for children than benefit. How can children spend that many years being taught a language yet generation after generation finish school unable to speak it. It should be optional.


Or teach us to speak it, not to write letters/poems/essays in it.  Such a waste of time the way it is currently taught.


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## Purple (2 Oct 2020)

SBarrett said:


> Ah Irish, a subject taught in schools for 14 years and causes more stress for children than benefit. How can children spend that many years being taught a language yet generation after generation finish school unable to speak it. It should be optional.


Or the people who claim to be able to teach it should take a long hard look at themselves. In what other field could such a staggering record of failure be countenanced?


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## Steven Barrett (2 Oct 2020)

Zenith63 said:


> Or teach us to speak it, not to write letters/poems/essays in it.  Such a waste of time the way it is currently taught.



Agree 100%. It is pointless teaching kids about poetry in a language they don't understand or can't converse in. They end up learning off phrases by heart and just sticking it down on the page. 

See how Jim learnt Irish, learning it through talking in it day in day out. Not by reading a book about a grim life of death and starvation on the Blaskets. 



Jim2007 said:


> I hated languages in school and was happy to see the back of Irish when I went college.  I then studied accounting and was assigned to an Irish speaking partner - four years of accounting and finance through Irish!


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## phoenix53 (3 Oct 2020)

https://www.riai.ie/careers-in-architecture/how-to-become-an-architect - this might help.  

Points very high.  622 this year for TU.  Its all about supply and demand.  Low number of places, high demand, high points.  An interview also seems to be part of the selection process.

Personally, I would say she is too young to be deciding her future at this stage.

Having just got another child passed the Leaving Cert, I would say the broader their subject choice at Junior Cert Level, the better.  My son has been a lawyer, economist, teacher and has finally decided to go down the Finance route with Accountancy in his mind at the moment.  This may change as they can specialise in year 3 of his degree.

The Junior cert should be used, in my opinion, to take as broad a selection of subjects as possible.   This leaves them in the best place possible, when selecting subjects for their Leaving Cert.   If they don't know what they want to do when they leave school, they can take the subjects they most enjoyed from Junior Cert and sit them for their Leaving Cert.  It is so much easier to study subjects you enjoy rather than muddle your way through Leaving Cert doing subjects you hate because you kept your subject selection too narrow at Junior Cert level.

I would be in favour of the idea of taking a language at least until Junior Cert.


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## Jim2007 (3 Oct 2020)

SBarrett said:


> Ah Irish, a subject taught in schools for 14 years and causes more stress for children than benefit. How can children spend that many years being taught a language yet generation after generation finish school unable to speak it. It should be optional.



Kids are like everyone else, if they don’t see s use for a language they don’t bother learning it either.  English teachers here in Switzerland will tell you that it is the easiest subject to teach because every kid in the class sees that it is useful to them.    And they can use it immediately on the internet so they get positive feedback.


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## Mousehelp (4 Oct 2020)

phoenix53 said:


> https://www.riai.ie/careers-in-architecture/how-to-become-an-architect - this might help.
> 
> Points very high.  622 this year for TU.  Its all about supply and demand.  Low number of places, high demand, high points.  An interview also seems to be part of the selection process.
> 
> ...



these 622 points are not from the LC alone but from a combination of the LC, a portfolio and an interview. Points did go up this year, like pretty much every course, due to the inflated grades but actually dropped last year.


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## Purple (5 Oct 2020)

Jim2007 said:


> Because your understanding and ability to communicate in English will be improved by your understanding of other languages.


Will it though?
I don't speak any other languages, being on the dyslexic/dyspraxic/thick spectrum, but I rarely find myself unable to comprehend or articulate a concept or topic due to limits in vocabulary. For someone like me the bandwidth taken up attempting to learn a second language would far outweigh the advantages of having a broader course choice in 3rd level as it would have a significant negative impact on my other subjects in school. Thankfully my Leaving Cert was 30 years ago and so any study I may choose to do now I do as a mature student.

On a more general note it should be a criminal offense to tell a child that their school days are the best days of their life. Nothing could be further from the truth and they should be reminded of that on a regular basis.


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