# Anger with the Property market and rent increase !!



## frenchresident (7 Mar 2003)

I just want to express my anger with the property market in this country and the greed it generated over the last few years.

My wife and I have been renting a 2 bedroom appt over the last 4 years in  Raheny and the rent has been increased every single year without any improvement made to the appt. We received the annual lease renewal last week informing us that the rent is put up an additional €40

We're expecting in 3 month time and my wife who's irish just lost her job. She may not get redundancy from the company since it was a small company. I'm earning a descent salary (50k€) and we're still struggling with our savings.

What's wrong with the system ? We don't drink, don't smoke, do go out to the restaurant. We just spend time with friends.

I'm really p..... off !!!! >: >: >: 
I'm originally from France (Paris) and my friends can't believe Dublin is more expensive than Paris. For everything.

We even compare prices between supermarket in Dublin and Paris to shop for small items and clothes.

Sorry to bother you with this thread but I really wanted to express my anger. We might end leaving Ireland because of the cost of living.


----------



## Repaymentator (7 Mar 2003)

Try negotiating the price. Rents are actually going down. Your
landlord is chancing his arm. www.daft.ie is a good site. Check
it every week to get a feel for the direction rents are going in.

[Edited by Marion to provide link]


----------



## MAC (4 Jun 2003)

*Increasing rents....*

Hi Frenchresident,

Sorry to hear your plight. I have to confess that I'm on the other side of the fence here as a landlord. However as Repaymentor says rents are heading south so I think the landlord is risking losing a what appears to be a good loyal tenant for the sake of greed.

I am surprised especially when the landlord has done nothing to upgrade your flat over your period of occupancy. My view, and I suspect more and more landlords are coming to the same opinion is that if you get good tenants (and the vast majority are fine), you look after them. This makes sense not only from an altruistic perspective but also because they stay longer, they keep the place better and you can offset the improvements against your tax bill - so it really doesn't make sense to scrimp on the maintenance.

BTW - your wifes redundancy should be impacted by the size of the company. There are statutory entitlements too - check out the governments OASIS site and if necessary contact the Dept of Enterprise and Employment (or whatever they're called now). 

Best of luck with the new arrival!
MAC

PS. Excellent suggetsion about daft.ie


----------



## Frenchresident (4 Jun 2003)

Hello to all !!

Thanks for the suggestions.

In fact, the landlady decided to sell the appt and we have to be out within 3 weeks. She knows she won't get the rate she used to and 3 appts in the same block have been sold for 240k, 280k and 270k, so it's a better deal for her trying to put it on the market rather than lose money and we're now paying the consequences. I heard something on Radio1 this morning about rent in terms of minimum lenght but I missed the story. 

Anyway, we've been on daft.ie for the last 2 month as I expected this would happen and we're checking actively but I don't think rents have come down much.

As for my wife, she's been to the Dept of Enterprise and Employment and has seen a counsellor and knows what to expect.

My anger bypassed my patience and I had to express the feeling. this group is a very good support and we appreciate the help.

Regards


----------



## rainyday (4 Jun 2003)

Hi FrenchGuy - Sorry to hear of your difficulties. Would you like to tell us how things would be different in France, just for the sake of discussion?


----------



## MAC (4 Jun 2003)

*If you still p***ed off..*

Here's the article

www.rte.ie/news/2003/0604/TENANTS.html

MAC

PS. It's still the subject of a lot of resistence by the IPOA so don't get too carried away


----------



## Bearish (4 Jun 2003)

*Re: If you still p***ed off..*

Frenchresident your landlord is probably selling the appartments before this new legislation becomes law!


----------



## Joey (4 Jun 2003)

*Big Crash*

Probably wants to get it sold off before the big crash.

I can hear it (listen...) it's not that far away now...just like a BIG tidal wave .....


----------



## CutehoorfromCavan (4 Jun 2003)

*The tidal wave*

I've heard the tidal wave will hit us all next Tuesday. 

This is obviously why your landlord is selling up. He must be heading off to somewhere altogether more pleasant where people eat snails, test nuclear bombs on small pacific islands, and plant tall trees along the edge of motorways for invading German soldiers to march along.


----------



## Not for censorship (5 Jun 2003)

*But*

Could that last comment be deleted on the basis of being gratuitously offensive?


----------



## Frenchresident (5 Jun 2003)

*Rent regulation in France*

Hi rainyday

There are strict regulations in France in terms of rent for the tenant and the landlord in order to protect the consumers

[broken link removed]
www.insee.fr/en/home/home_page.asp

If what happens now in Dublin would have happened in France, There would be major strikes and economic consequences.
Rents in Paris city or suburb are much lower than in Dublin.

BTW, comments made earlier don't affect me personally. 
Irish ppl can enjoy a retirement place in the South of France with cheap wine and sun. The irish are always welcome by the french.

Some of our irish friends consider moving to France and work from home with broadband access as cheap as €15/month

Everything comes to an end and we'll bounce back. It's just one of this difficult time.


----------



## MAC (5 Jun 2003)

*Not so Bearish*

Joey / Bearish,

Being part of the existing landlord fraternity I wouldn't too pessimistic. I think the combination of the new legislation should flush out those with something to worry about and the buy to let entrants over the past 12 months have suddenly realised that it's not "free  money".

So with a chunk of landlords will move out of the market this should stablise and dare I say it, drive rents higher as the supply reduces within the Dublin area ie. 4 miles of so from O'Connell St.

In any event, landlords who are in the market for 5 years or more have plenty of equity and their costs are well covered.

MAC


----------



## rainyday (5 Jun 2003)

*Re: Not so Bearish*

Hi FrenchRes - Thanks for the info & links. Am I correct in interpreting this as meaning that rent increases are limited to a published index value (referred to as the 'buildings index') in these threads?

It's interesting to note that such restrictions operate successfully in France.


----------



## Frenchresident (5 Jun 2003)

*Re: Not so Bearish*

Correct.

Rules apply differently between Paris and the country but this is to protect both landlords and tenants.


----------



## Bearish (5 Jun 2003)

*Re: Not so Bearish*

Mac,

I agree that anyone who bought 5 years ago is well insulated from any price falls due to the equity they will have built up. My point is that this new legislation combined with falling rents may well lead to some landlords deciding to take the profits built up in investment property. I know I would if I were a landlord. Particularly given the market is at its peak and CGT is at 20%. The increased supply of property created by landlords selling up combined with record housing output could push prices down rather quickly.

As for decreased rental supply driving rents higher, the legislation is supposed to stop landlords doing just this!


----------



## Delboy (5 Jun 2003)

*New tenancy laws*

I agree with you Bearish that the new tenancy laws could push some landlords out of the market. All the extra red tape and the extra rights for tenants could be the final nail in the coffin, esp. with all this talk of house price bubbles. Some might think it an ideal time to get out.
But may I put on my devils advocate hat and advance a theory of my own on why some of them may quit. The new laws carry an obligation that all landlords register with their local autorites each year, all the properties they own in that area. Now if the Revenue have any cop on, they'll look at this list, compare it to tax returns, and also to rents in the areas for which they're registered.And they'll clean up on tax arrears, penalties and interest IMHO.
Because it's my opinion that a large amount of landlords are'nt paying tax. I have lived in a lot of houses in Dublin and most of the time the rent is collected in cash.
My current landlord (a builder per chance) called last night and took over 2k in rent, all cash. We're not allowed a rent book, and cannot claim rent relief under his name. In return we pay less than the going rate for the area (lucky us!!!). This has been the case for the past number of years according to some of the lads who have lived there. I claim rent relief under a landlord I had 5 years ago and have never changed (says a lot about the revenues systems), so I'm not too pushed. He causes no problems and we only see him when the rent is due and as the house is in good nic, it suits us.

But this guy owns several houses and will buy several more if he keeps getting cash in hand. This is why first time buyers cannot afford to compete. And I'm sure some of his cash goes to pay feela on his sites in cash so the Revenue is losing out in several ways. It's like the landlord days of a hundered years ago

Why won't the government chase these people down. Why are they afraid of them ?????? Is it beacuse they are the main funders and fund raisers for the political parties of this country.............


----------



## Mags (5 Jun 2003)

*Re: Not so Bearish*



> As for decreased rental supply driving rents higher, the legislation is supposed to stop landlords doing just this!



Except that the legislation pins acceptable rent increases to market rental rates rather than an index so if decreased supply drives up vacant possession market rates, landlords can increase existing tenants' rents to match.


----------



## rainyday (5 Jun 2003)

*Re: New tenancy laws*

Hi Delboy - I really think it's a bit rich for you to blame the Government when you are quite happy to conspire with your landlord to evade tax.

If you were genuinly concerned about tax evasion, you would

- report your landlord to Revenue today
- not conspire (i.e. get reduced rent for cash payments) with your landlord to evade tax.


----------



## Tommy (5 Jun 2003)

*Re: New tenancy laws*

Any landlord that thinks they can get away with evading tax on rental income by receiving this income in the form of cash is fooling themselves.

The Revenue do not need any sort of tenancies register to tell them who is renting property and who is not. They already have enough information at their disposal to chase all suspected cases of tax fraud.

1. All property ownership details are recorded, and are available for public (and Revenue) inspection in the Land Registry

2. All property purchases and sales contracts are subject to stamp duty. As part of this process, all relevant details must be submitted to the Revenue Capital Taxes Division in Dublin Castle before legal ownership changes hands.  

At present, the Revenue are clearing a large backlog of cases of suspected evasion with non-resident and offshore accounts etc. According to recent media articles, the attention is now switching to investigating whether "hot money" is or was being used to finance holiday home investments abroad. 

It is fairly obvious, to me anyway, that in the next few years, an investigation will be launched into suspected irregularities in the domestic property sector. It actually suits the Revenue to leave this sit for a number of years as this means extra money for them in the long run due to punitive interest charges and time-related penalties. When that day arrives, the Revenue won't have to even leave their offices to obtain the information that they need.

Finally, Delboy, I hope you realise that by giving large amounts of cash to your landlord, you may be leaving yourself open for proceedings for non-payment of rent if they are not providing you with some receipt for monies paid. Be careful.


----------



## Bearish (5 Jun 2003)

*Devils in the Detail*

Mags,

How the new legislation defines market rents will laregly dictate whether landlords can substantialy increase rents. I presume increases will be linked to the rental component of the CPI.


----------



## Mags (5 Jun 2003)

*Re: Devils in the Detail*

Today's Irish Times has a couple of articles about the bill details of which were announced by the Minister yesterday.  Market rate is defined as the sum required for "vacant possession having regard to the other tenancy terms and the letting values of the dwellings of similar size, type and character and located in a similar area".  No mention of indices - the other article has the Opposition and tenants representatives complaining about this aspect of the legislation.

How could you have market rent being anything other than, curiously enough, market rent?  If it were linked to initial rent plus an index, there'd be loads of different 'market rents'.  How could this work?  To give tenants real security of tenure, landlords have to be able to charge market rent - otherwise they'd want the tenants out so they could start again (at real market rent) with new tenants.


----------



## Delboy (5 Jun 2003)

*Landlords*

Rainyday - I don't think I'm being a bit 'rich' at all in my attitiude. I have only recently moved into the house and was told the story by the people I share with (some of whom have been there for years).While my rent might be slightly lower than the rates for the area, it's still not bloody cheap. I'm not conspiring with anyone to evade tax.

As for reporting my landlord to the Revenue - I am of the understanding that no annonymous 'tips' can be made to them. I'd have to give my name and details. Now I'm just after completing my 5th move in 18 months and am finally in an area that I like and thats handy for work/socialising etc. I don't think the governement have the stomach for catching these people out - like I said a lot of landlords I have known operate in what appear to be a dodgy manner. So why report 1 when there's hundreds possibly at the same craic

Thanks for the warning Tommy. However, I think it would be a very ambitious landlord that would go to law over non payment of rent which in fact had been paid when he's not above board himself. A lot of people have lived at 1 stage or another in this house. The landlord would be faced by many witnesses who'd explain how the situation was when they were there.
And as the landlord built this house himself, there are no purchase/sale contracts involved (maybe on the land he used to build them perhaps)

I too believe that a crack down might be imminent on landlords, Tommy. It just annoys me to see it taking so long. I know the revenue's hands are full at the moment but the country is short cash at present and guess who'll be putting up for this come the budget - PAYE workers.


----------



## rainyday (5 Jun 2003)

*Re: Landlords*



> I have only recently moved into the house and was told the story by the people I share with (some of whom have been there for years).



So a little bit of tax evasion is OK, or tax evasion for a short period is OK because other guys have been doing it for years? Some very suspect moral logic there...



> am finally in an area that I like and thats handy for work/socialising etc.



So tax evasion is OK if it facilites your commuting or socialising? Some more very suspect moral logic there...



> While my rent might be slightly lower than the rates for the area, it's still not bloody cheap.



I didn't say it was cheap, but the fact remains that the reduction (large or small) which you enjoy is the fruits of tax evasion.



> I'd have to give my name and details.



Probably, but why would this be a problem for you? Any information you give to Revenue will be treated in strictest confidence & your landlord will never know who shopped him.



> I don't think the governement have the stomach for catching these people out



You could well be right here, but they also don't have the evidence for catching these people out, until people like you are prepared to stand up & be counted.



> So why report 1 when there's hundreds possibly at the same craic



How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time. How do you catch hundreds of tax-evading landlords? One at a time.

My own opinion is that you lose your right to complain about tax evading landlords as long as you are happy to play their game. You're either part of the solution or part of the problem - IMHO, you are choosing to be part of the problem.

Regards - RainyDay


----------



## Bearish (5 Jun 2003)

*Re: Devils in the Detail*

Mags,

I would have imagined that the rental component of the CPI measures market rents. Surely there needs to be some objective measure of rental trends in the market place against which to compare a particular rent increase. Without such a measure how can someone claim their rent has increased by more than market rates?

Somehting else just occured to me. Suppose market rates drop, as they are now. Can a tennant claim that a landlord by maintaining the previous years rental level is charging in excess of the market rate???


----------



## Delboy (5 Jun 2003)

*Landlords*

I admire your attempts at picking holes in everything I've said Rainyday. We could all got though every line of what everyone says here and surely find someone who disagrees with something.
I do not codone tax evasion beacuse I live in an area that suits me.Never meant to insinuate it ,if thats the way you read it. I do not condone tax evasion because 'it has been going on for years' before I moved in either.It's just the situation I find myself in. 

You seem keen to tear holes in my arguments about the way landlords carry on. Have you never rented accommodation ? Have you never suspected 1 of your previous landlords of dodging tax ? Do you have a personal aquaintance who is a landlord and not paying full tax ? Have you reported anyone you suspected?
Do you not think that major tax evasion is going on? Maybe it's been a while since you rented and have forgotten how things were

Anyway,I thought this was a discussion board? I just posted my experiences and views on rent and landlords and wanted to know what other posters views were.


----------



## Mags (5 Jun 2003)

*Re: Devils in the Detail*



> Surely there needs to be some objective measure of rental trends in the market place against which to compare a particular rent increase



Bearish, the details of the bill were unveiled yesterday.  There is no indexation involved so saying 'but, but, but...surely, surely, surely...' isn't going to change anything.  The objective measure you seek will have to come via dispute resolution with the Private Residential Tenancies Board.

As I mentioned, the opposition are saying there isn't enough protection for tenants.  Some quotes:

The Green party environment spokesman, Mr Ciaran Cuffe, said the Bill did not go far enough. He said rent increases should be capped at 5 per cent above inflation to strike a balance between the rights of tenants and landowners.
The Sinn Féin TD, Mr Arthur Morgan, said rent increases should be index-linked and not market driven. "The failure to address rent regulation and issues regarding affordability will seriously undermine the security of tenure provisions," he said.
The Socialist Party TD, Mr Joe Higgins, said the Bill failed to address "extortionate rents" charged by landlords.
Criticising the measure to set rents at market rates, Mr Higgins said that the "entire control over the levels of rent is placed exclusively in the hands of the landlord class".

Unless there are amendments to the bill, this is what will be brought into legislation.

With regard to your second point, presumably yes, a reduction could be forced (probably via the PRTB) at the yearly rent review if open market rents dropped - "Rents limited to open market levels and only reviewed yearly, at most, if there is no substantial change in the accommodation"


----------



## ClubMan (5 Jun 2003)

*Re: Landlords*

Seems to me that _Rainyday_ has a point - surely complaining about tax evasion but directly or indirectly facilitating it or turning a blind eye to it is a bit hypocritical?


----------



## rainyday (5 Jun 2003)

*Re: Landlords*



> I admire your attempts at picking holes in everything I've said Rainyday.



Thank you very much  



> I do not codone tax evasion beacuse I live in an area that suits me.Never meant to insinuate it ,if thats the way you read it. I do not condone tax evasion because 'it has been going on for years' before I moved in either.



Your actions (enjoying a reduced rent via your landlords tax evasion) speak louder than your words.



> It's just the situation I find myself in.



True, but I note your extreme reluctance to attempt to resolve the situation by reporting your landlord.



> Have you never rented accommodation ?



Yes - 1990-1994



> Have you never suspected 1 of your previous landlords of dodging tax ?



No - all payments by cheque through a reputable property management agency.



> Do you have a personal aquaintance who is a landlord and not paying full tax ?



Not that I know of or suspect.



> Have you reported anyone you suspected?



Yes, though not a landlord.



> I just posted my experiences and views on rent and landlords and wanted to know what other posters views were.



And you got my views, loud & clear. To be honest, the fact that your landlord evades tax and you enjoy a rent reduction doesn't really surprise me - I guess it's happening all over the country. What really surprises me is that you have the neck to complain about the Govt/Revenue not doing anything about it while you continue to enjoy your reduced rent and refuse to report your landlord. That's good old-fashioned oirish hypocracy, IMHO.


----------



## Delboy (5 Jun 2003)

*Rents*

Well Rainyday, if you think €390 for a single room about 45 minutes walk from town is below market value, that's fine. I think it's expensive as I said earlier. Especially as I;m trying to save a deposit

I am taking no part in any collusion....I saw an ad, looked at the room and was given it. To me it would be in or around the avergae rent for that area and I was the one looking up to recently. I was told by the other people in the house that it was cheaper than what was available beacuse the landlord does'nt bother them too much and does'nt put the rent up too often.
Now his reasons for not putting the rent up on a regular basis could be many, 1 of which may be because there is no rent book and no rent relief been claimed under his name. Another could be that he does'nt want the hassle of arguing with tenants on a regular basis for a hunderd euros or so a month extra.
As for this kind of thing happening all over the country....I don't think so. We've all heard of the huge rent increases over the last 4 or so years. Landlords by large, are'nt worried by the tax man, they just want extra rent.
So I go ahead and report my landlord. Hardly find it suspect that a new tenant has moved in ahd he's got the tax man on his behind. And the end result is that I'm left looking for another house to live in...again. We're not all as lucky as Rainyday to have had only to rent for 4 years. I'm now in my 10th.

Maybe a few more years renting (esp in the last 4-5 with rent increases of 10-15% every year) might have  hardened your attitude to Landlords Rainyday :b


----------



## rainyday (5 Jun 2003)

*Re: Rents*



> Well Rainyday, if you think €390 for a single room about 45 minutes walk from town is below market value, that's fine. I think it's expensive as I said earlier.



Hi Delboy - I didn't say that it was below market value, you did - in your original post



> My current landlord (a builder per chance) called last night and took over 2k in rent, all cash. [...] In return *we pay less than the going rate* for the area (lucky us!!!).



Is your story changing slightly now that it's been subject to some scrutiny.



> We're not all as lucky as Rainyday to have had only to rent for 4 years. I'm now in my 10th.



Agreed - but to me, this has no relevance on the morality of tax evasion. It doesn't become moral if you've hit hard time, are homeless, or are struggling to get a deposit together. It's wrong - plain & simple.



> So I go ahead and report my landlord. Hardly find it suspect that a new tenant has moved in ahd he's got the tax man on his behind. And the end result is that I'm left looking for another house to live in...again.



I'd be a fiver that you'll be long gone from the house (at your own behest) before Revenue get round to taking serious action against the landlord.



> Maybe a few more years renting (esp in the last 4-5 with rent increases of 10-15% every year) might have hardened your attitude to Landlords



I'm not sure what I said that gave the impression that I don't have a 'hard attitude' to landlords. Surely my explicit encouragement to report the landlord for tax evasion makes it clear that I'd be very happy to see a tax-evading landlord being caught. I'm not in any way condoning the landlords action. 

I'm just pointing out that you are actively supporting his tax evasion by paying your rent in cash.


----------



## Delboy (5 Jun 2003)

*Rents*

changing my story when subject to scrutiny !!!!!!!
Your not as good yet as say the Gestapo or RUC, Rainyday, to make me change my story under questioning :evil 

I'll repeat..... I was told by the people I share with that the rent is cheaper beacuse it's cash,no rent book etc. That's their view. Mine is and has been, that I am paying in or near the market value regardless of what way the landlord is behaving. And I believe my rent is expensive.
I've never indicated anything else in this thread.

And your belief that it will take revenue some time before they act on any tip-offs, blows your line that I should report the landlord out of the water. I intend staying in this house for a long time as moving house is a rotten experience. 

So if it takes Revenue so long to act, it just proves my original point that they have no stomach for taking on Landlords and that tax evasion in this area will continue for some time yet (unless Tommy is proved right which I hope he is).....................

Anyone else out there have a view on this.....


----------



## rainyday (5 Jun 2003)

*Re: Rents*



> Mine is and has been, that I am paying in or near the market value ... I've never indicated anything else in this thread.



With the exception of your post where you said "In return we pay less than the going rate for the area"


----------



## Bearish (5 Jun 2003)

*Lobbying*



> There is no indexation involved so saying 'but, but, but...surely, surely, surely...' isn't going to change anything.




As this legislation has yet to be made into law I see no reason why amendments can't be included to make the whole process of comparing market rental levels somewhat objective. In fact I'll be getting onto my local TDs to get them to lobby the minister. I reckon any tenant tired of continual rent increases should do the same. I bet there are a whole lot more tenants then landlords, so if I was a politician I know who I would listen to!


----------



## Elcato (5 Jun 2003)

*Re: Rents*

Did you ask the landlord for a rent book when you moved in. What proof do you have that you have paid rent ? I presume you have a receipt. You can back claim rent relief as far as I know so there's no immediate need to apply if you think you are getting a good deal. If you agreed with the landlord not to apply for the relief in exchange for 'cheaper' rent then you are colluding in tax evasion I'm afraid. I do have sympathy for your plight but I have to agree with Rainyday on this one. If the landlord hasn't given you a rent book then request one. If he then explains that he''ll bump up the rent then play along and report him.


----------



## Mags (6 Jun 2003)

*Lobbying*



> I see no reason why amendments can't be included to make the whole process of comparing market rental levels somewhat objective. In fact I'll be getting onto my local TDs to get them to lobby the minister



What will you lobby for Bearish?  How do you get around the conundrum that if the current tenant is paying less than the market rate (perhaps as a result of years of paying initial rent + an index), the landlord will want him out so that he can get a new tenant at market rate?  So you're sacrificing security of tenure for the indexed rent - do you think that's worthwhile?  Do you not think the PRTB will provide a forum for deciding what is an acceptable market rent?  Do you think that landlord's are entitled to charge the supply/demand driven market rent?


----------



## Mags (6 Jun 2003)

*Lobbying*

And BTW:



> I bet there are a whole lot more tenants then landlords, so if I was a politician I know who I would listen to!



politicians will listen to whoever gives them the best chance of getting elected - that may be the disgruntled masses or it may be the monied landlords.

[and before the apostrophe police get on my case, I know landlords (plural) shouldn't have an apostrophe - don't know how that slipped in]


----------



## Tommy (6 Jun 2003)

*Re: Rents*



> And your belief that it will take revenue some time before they act on any tip-offs, blows your line that I should report the landlord out of the water.





> So if it takes Revenue so long to act, it just proves my original point that they have no stomach for taking on Landlords



Both these statements are totally untrue. 

Any tip-off to Revenue will of course take time for them to process because they will need to assemble evidence (including presumably the landlord's 2002 tax return - not due for filing until 31/10/03) before they take action. This delay does not necessarily mean that such tip-offs are pointless.

Neither does it mean that they "have no stomach for taking on Landlords" - any more than you could say that if the Gardai spend 12 months gathering evidence on a top criminal, that means that they have no intention of prosecuting him.

Finally, as I said earlier, the Revenue actually have a vested interest in delaying proceedings against errant taxpayers - as the longer the delay, the bigger the interest and penalties charged to the taxpayer on arrears if and when a tax default is proved. If the Revenue had clamped down on Bogus Non-Resident Accounts in 1990 they would have collected a small fraction of the amounts collected in the past year or so, because in most cases settled recently, the interest charges have outweighed the original tax owing.


----------



## Delboy (6 Jun 2003)

*Rents*

Rainyday - I have made clear that the comment 'we pay less rent...' was what was said to me by the other people in the house. 
I have explicitly stated that I don't believe the rent to be either cheap or out of kilter with the area.

Elacto - I think you need to read more of this discussion before you make any comments about my collusion with the landlord. I have only moved in a few weeks. There are people who have been there for several years. I can't just walk in and take over the house !!!! I would'nt be long there if I tried that.
I don't know of anyone who when offered a room in a house they've viewed, then ask if there is a rent book and is the landlord tax compliant !!!!! Anyone who is currently renting or who has been renting over the last few years has just been thankful to get a room with all the hassle, q's of people etc. involved.

Tommy, I agree with most of what you say but must take issue with 1 point. if the revenue knew in 1990 that there were bogus non-resident accounts they should have moved in then. Holding off for a number of years so as to build up penalty and arrears seems like a very odd policy to me. It just encourages a wider belief that tax evasion is possible and is worth the risk. 
Tax evasion needs to be tackled from day 1 in whatever sector so as not to encourage others to try the same thing in others


----------



## Tommy (6 Jun 2003)

*Re: Rents*

My reference to the BNRA's was simply to illustrate a point which countered the erroneous argument you made earlier. 

How on earth can the Revenue act on a tip off about someone allegedly making a false tax return in advance of the deadline for that person to submit the return?


----------



## rainyday (6 Jun 2003)

*Re: Rents*

Hi Delboy - You'll be worried if the Revenue act immediately, 'cos you might get thrown out of your house, and you'll be worried if they don't act for a year or two, 'cos then there is no point in investigating.

I think you've clearly demonstrated the classic oirish double-think of ensuring that it's always *their* fault, regardless of what the problem is, or whoever *they* are - No need for any personal responsibility. Denial is NOT a river in Egypt.


----------



## MAC (6 Jun 2003)

*Rents on the way up?*

Couple of points - Delboy, you're landlord is obliged to provide a rent book, what's he going to do if you request one? Kick you out? Any landlord with any common sense would see where that is likely to lead to.....does he accepts cheques?

On another point Bearish said "The increased supply of property created by landlords selling up combined with record housing output could push prices down rather quickly." As I stated before I think some of the Buy To Let lads will get out now they've reaslised it's not "free money". I also think that some of the non-revenvue compliant lads will head for the hills... This will have the effect of reducing supply (WITHIN DUBLIN CITY) and ergo rents will be re-enforced (yields will increase in the house price drops at the same time). The overall market will lift and therefore landlords will be complying and meanwhile the sprawl will continue out by Kildare / Louth etc. Bottom line is that govt. intervention tends to cause more problems than solutions.

This post will be deleted if not edited immediately, this is depressing!!!!!!

MAC


----------



## Sean (6 Jun 2003)

*.*

"Denial is NOT a river in Egypt"

That's quite funny actually; - I'll have to remember that one...


----------



## Delboy (6 Jun 2003)

*DeNial*

If your from Cork, DeNial is a river in Egypt !!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Bearish (6 Jun 2003)

*Market Index*

Mags,

As for rental levels I do believe they should be dictated by the market, not government. However in order for the proposed legislation to work The need some objective measure of what is happening to general rental levels in the MARKET. Just as we have the CPI or ERSI house price index to compare against increased prices when buying a retail product or a house, so too should there be a measure to compare particular rental changes against. Otherwise how can you objectively say that a particular rent increase is generally above or below changes in the market. I suspect that the legislation is primarily there to protect the more vulnerable in society who will never own their own home And there will always depend on the rental sector. Young professionals such as myself are more than capable of knowing what is going on in the market and haggling with our landlords. If the haggling isn’t to our satisfaction then we can move somewhere else. Older people and those on lower incomes with families are more vulnerable and are not as mobile. It would be easier for these people to have a simple reference rate against which to judge whether their landlord was being fair in imposing rent increases. That way if market rates are increasing 5% then the landlord can reasonably ask for a 5% increase, but not a 15% increase. It seems logical to me anyway.



> As I stated before I think some of the Buy To Let lads will get out now they've reaslised it's not "free money". I also think that some of the non-revenvue compliant lads will head for the hills... This will have the effect of reducing supply (WITHIN DUBLIN CITY) and ergo rents will be re-enforced



There is an oversupply of rental accommodation in Dublin at the moment. Just look at any area on Daft.ie to see the supply out there. As a result rental levels in general are falling. I agree this trend will cause some new buy to let landlords out of the market. Until this over supply is eliminated rents will continue to fall to a level where they meet demand. I can’t see the reasoning for you to believe that rental levels will then go back up in the short-term unless you believe there will be increased demand. Previously landlords enjoyed the combined effect of Irish graduates getting good jobs in Ireland and renting out for a few years before buying a house as well as foreign workers coming to Ireland and renting accommodation. Both these trends are in decline. There is less immigration into the country as a result of the downturn in the economy and the majority of new graduates are finding it difficult to get good jobs and are therefore going abroad or living at home with their parents. Both factors are likely to increasingly lead to softening in demand for rental accommodation. Therefore I cant see rents i9nn general increasing in the short to medium term.


----------

