# Job interview for SNA. Is religion relevant?



## BetsyClark (8 Aug 2014)

Hi

I've a job interview for a SNA position at a local Catholic school. The letter of invitation to the interview contained a document describing the school's Catholic ethos etc.

What are the chances that my religious views will be brought up at interview?

Has any one any experience of job interviews at Catholic schools who can advise?

Thanks

Betsy


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## moneybox (8 Aug 2014)

I don't think they will bring up your religious views as such but to be in with a good chance of gettign one of these 'prestige jobs' it helps to be well in with the local priest, by that I mean helping out in the parish, going to mass, givng out Holy Communion etc etc


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## Leper (8 Aug 2014)

Your religious views will not be relevant at the interview.  Your ability to do the job in a professional manner is the only relevant aspect of what you will go through.  It is likely that you will be competing against people who have already worked in the school in a temporary capacity so you will have to be on your game.  Best of luck.


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## noproblem (8 Aug 2014)

Can someone explain what knowing the priest, or, being "in with the priest" has to do with the job of SNA? Does he give the job, what power has he got? I believe he has nothing to do with the actual giving of the position. If I'm wrong, could you give a link to his involvement?


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## Protocol (8 Aug 2014)

The priest will be on the BoM, as representative of the owner of the school.

As a member of the BoM, he will play a part in the hiring process.


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## monagt (8 Aug 2014)

> Your religious views will not be relevant at the interview,



Not sure if this is a fact, the religious ethos of schools is protected under equality legalisation.


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## Bronte (8 Aug 2014)

monagt said:


> Not sure if this is a fact, the religious ethos of schools is protected under equality legalisation.


 
Which means you could be fired for being a homosexual etc.  Equality Irish style.


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## Brendan Burgess (8 Aug 2014)

Leper said:


> Your religious views will not be relevant at the interview.  Your ability to do the job in a professional manner is the only relevant aspect of what you will go through..



I thought this up until yesterday. I had lunch with a friend of mine who chaired the interview panel for a primary school teacher in a Catholic primary school.  

He says that his job is to protect the Catholic ethos and he is allowed by the legislation to take that into account.  

He asked their strongly favoured candidate about how important spiritual matters were to her. They hedged about a bit before she advised them that she was an atheist.  The panel unanimously agreed afterwards that she could not be offered the job, although she was otherwise, the outstanding candidate for it. 

I don't know if the same applies to SNAs, but I would imagine it does.


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## monagt (8 Aug 2014)

> Which means you could be fired for being a homosexual etc. Equality Irish style.



As BB would say No,No,No.

The legalisation protects instances such as, all girls schools can refuse boys and vice versa, islamic schools can refuse christians and vice versa.

Others areas such as those you mentioned are protected, race, colour, ethnicity, sexual orientation, travelling community, religion, etc, and these protections are set out in detail.


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## Bronte (8 Aug 2014)

You go in modestly dressed, with wedding ring on if you are married.  You do not say you are an athesit/protestant, or that you support same sex marriage, or agree with living in sin.

In other words you play the game.  I have a sibling working in education and health.  

Once you're in, you can pretty much be yourself.  But woe betide you if you have views that are at major variance with Catholic teaching.


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## Purple (8 Aug 2014)

Bronte said:


> But woe betide you if you have views that are at major variance with Catholic teaching.


 Good job I'm not a teacher so!


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## michaelm (8 Aug 2014)

Bronte said:


> But woe betide you if you have views that are at major variance with Catholic teaching.


I'd have thought it was incumbent on the interview panel that they ensure that the successful candidate would be comfortable with the ethos of the school and happy to promote same (whether or not religion has any place in schools being a different argument).


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## Nige (8 Aug 2014)

monagt said:


> As BB would say No,No,No.
> 
> The legalisation protects instances such as, all girls schools can refuse boys and vice versa, islamic schools can refuse christians and vice versa.
> 
> Others areas such as those you mentioned are protected, race, colour, ethnicity, sexual orientation, travelling community, religion, etc, and these protections are set out in detail.



Unfortunately you are wrong.  At present, the exemption from the equality legislation for schools would allow them to fire a homosexual teacher on the basis that it impacts on the school's religious ethos.


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## Brendan Burgess (8 Aug 2014)

Are there any primary schools for the children of atheists?


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## Sunny (8 Aug 2014)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Are there any primary schools for the children of atheists?


 
They don't need an education. They are damned. 

Where does Enda Kenny send his kids to learn about the force?

http://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/yourview/is-taoiseach-a-heretic-274097.html


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## ali (8 Aug 2014)

Not aware of any designated with Atheist status. But Educate Together is the best practical option. The children learn about world religions in an informational rather than indoctrinational (is that a word?) I am an atheist and my kids go to E.T.


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## monagt (8 Aug 2014)

> Unfortunately you are wrong. At present, the exemption from the equality legislation for schools would allow them to fire a homosexual teacher on the basis that it impacts on the school's religious ethos



This is an exemption to the Act............same as the others mentioned.

The Acts relate to discrimination based on the following 9 grounds: Gender, Civil Status, Family Status, Age, Race, Religion, Disability, Sexual Orientation, Membership of the Traveller community.


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## Sunny (8 Aug 2014)

monagt said:


> This is an exemption to the Act............same as the others mentioned.
> 
> The Acts relate to discrimination based on the following 9 grounds: Gender, Civil Status, Family Status, Age, Race, Religion, Disability, Sexual Orientation, Membership of the Traveller community.


 
No there isn't. Ruairi Quinn talked about repealing the exemption to equality legislation but I don't think he ever did it. Am open to correction. 


http://www.irishtimes.com/news/soci...l-its-gay-teachers-in-the-classroom-1.1687355


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## Nige (8 Aug 2014)

monagt, I can't tell if we are agreeing or disagreeing.

However, to reiterate to the OP, at present a school can discriminate between potential employees based on their religion or any other issue (such as family status, homosexuality etc) that could be deemed to impact on the school's ethos. 

While there is legislation planned to amend the act, it doesn't protect non-faith or other faith employees.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/law-change-will-protect-position-of-gay-teachers-1.1848231


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## noproblem (8 Aug 2014)

Protocol said:


> The priest will be on the BoM, as representative of the owner of the school.
> 
> As a member of the BoM, he will play a part in the hiring process.



It's the chairman of the BOM who is present at the interview, along with the Principal and a member of the advisory panel. If the priest isn't the chairman of the BOM, he's not at the interview. He may be a member of the BOM, as will others, some catholics, some not. He will have no more say than any other member, they will see to that.


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## monagt (8 Aug 2014)

> monagt, I can't tell if we are agreeing or disagreeing.


  - > Yes 

The area is a mine field and the Act needs to be redrawn rather than amended in the light of our new social makeup.
Should Irish Travellers have special status under the act? What about Roma or other ethic groups?
Can we force an Islamic Madrasa to accept homosexual teachers or students?
Can we force a Catholic School to accept Muslims?
Freedom for one may not be a freedom for the other so a delicate balance is needed.

And you are correct, a school can discriminate based on its ethos. (I neither agree or disagree)


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## Bronte (8 Aug 2014)

monagt said:


> As BB would say No,No,No.
> 
> The legalisation protects instances such as, all girls schools can refuse boys and vice versa, islamic schools can refuse christians and vice versa.
> 
> Others areas such as those you mentioned are protected, race, colour, ethnicity, sexual orientation, travelling community, religion, etc, and these protections are set out in detail.


 
Well you're totally wrong there Monagt. You can be fired for being homosexual, for being pregnant without being married (that would of course only apply to females), living with a married person would also be grounds for dismisal. And since about I think, 90% of primary schools are Catholic that restricts your choices of job, unless you do what most do, pretend to conform, and don't be blatent about your homosexuality or whatever. 

It's also the case that a Minister, I think Quinn, recommended that all teacher trainees do religion as part of their studies, in order to get a job. So much for religious freedom.


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## Gerry Canning (8 Aug 2014)

If the Principal wants you , I would think you would get the job.From experience it is naturally strongly loaded in the principals gift to select.
Just don,t be silly and say you are a teapot worshipper.
I would think most of us carry at least a lingering catholic ethos (hopefully the better parts!)


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## monagt (8 Aug 2014)

> Well you're totally wrong there Monagt.............................



Have you the data to support these statements? Can you post a link?

Religion, I agree, should be out of schools and into religious classes outside of school system.
"Catholic system restricting job choices" - much like many other countries which does but of course does not make it right but we "are where we are" and until society changes we are stuck with it.

So go for the job, put on the persona required to get it and good luck with your interview.


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## Janet (8 Aug 2014)

Fintan O'Toole wrote an article touching on this topic a while ago. I can't find the other article he refers to but I do remember reading it at the time - about the requirement for those doing teaching degrees to take religion. There was quite a lot of discussion on boards (on the atheism forum) about it, too.

From the Irish Times in June: Church won’t have to kick out the awkward teachers because it won’t let them in
"I’ve raised here recently the extraordinary situation in which State-funded teacher training colleges are telling their students that their degrees will be of limited use unless they also take a diploma in “faith formation” for Catholic or Protestant schools. In effect, public universities are colluding in a system of open discrimination in which atheist, Muslim, or Orthodox would-be teachers have to sign up to become missionaries for faiths to which they do not belong if they are to be eligible to work in the bulk of taxpayer-funded teaching jobs.

Astonishingly, last Friday, Minister for Education Ruairí Quinn endorsed this message, telling The Irish Times that “Teachers seeking to maximise their job prospects would be advised to study religious education”.


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## monagt (8 Aug 2014)

> Astonishingly, last Friday, Minister for Education Ruairí Quinn endorsed this message, telling The Irish Times that “Teachers seeking to maximise their job prospects would be advised to study religious education”.



Better to tell them to learn another language!


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## T McGibney (8 Aug 2014)

Janet said:


> In effect, public universities are colluding in a system of open discrimination in which atheist, Muslim, or Orthodox would-be teachers have to sign up to become missionaries for faiths to which they do not belong if they are to be eligible to work in the bulk of taxpayer-funded teaching jobs.




No they don't, no more than French or Spanish teachers aren't required to become "missionaries" for France or Spain, or economics teachers are required to believe 100% of the economic theories that they will learn. 

Their job is to learn and impart a syllabus, not dump their own personal identity or beliefs.


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## Purple (8 Aug 2014)

T McGibney said:


> No they don't, no more than French or Spanish teachers aren't required to become "missionaries" for France or Spain, or economics teachers are required to believe 100% of the economic theories that they will learn.
> 
> Their job is to learn and impart a syllabus, not dump their own personal identity or beliefs.



No that's incorrect.

An Economics Teacher can be fired for being homosexual, or not hired in the first place for being an atheist. 
This is not about the subjects they teach. It is about how the individual would or could influence the ethos of the school.

There should be no state funded religious schools. Period.


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## T McGibney (8 Aug 2014)

Purple said:


> No that's incorrect.
> 
> An Economics Teacher can be fired for being homosexual, or not hired in the first place for being an atheist.
> This is not about the subjects they teach. It is about how the individual would or could influence the ethos of the school.



That doesn't contradict anything I said above.

Fwiw, the provision within Section 37 in relation to sexual orientation is soon to be scrapped and good riddance. That said, I've yet to find a case of a teacher who has been sacked for being gay and there are plenty of openly gay teachers.


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## noproblem (8 Aug 2014)

T McGibney said:


> That doesn't contradict anything I said above.
> 
> Fwiw, the provision within Section 37 in relation to sexual orientation is soon to be scrapped and good riddance. That said, I've yet to find a case of a teacher who has been sacked for being gay and there are plenty of openly gay teachers.



You are correct to a point. Just go into an interview for a primary teacher position, tell the interview panel that you're gay and see what happens. One thing's for sure, you will not get the job. If the person looking for the position did their homework, they would be aware of certain rules and regulations in regard to the placement. Some people would say they don't care if their child was taught by a gay teacher, others wouldn't tolerate it. We don't want to open a debate about gays, etc, but there are rules and regulations and people will never agree on all of the rules. Just like the 10 commandments, some think they're silly, others don't. But, it's surprising the amount of Irish people in particular, who like to have a God on their side when things go wrong, even though they've convinced even themselves that religion is insignificant to their lives. I wonder what all those that don't believe think is going to happen in the end, where did they stop the God in their lives, what made it happen and why? Personally, I don't have a problem with religion in our schools one way or the other, but where would we be education wise without the priests and nuns in the 1st place? Just like parents that were/are bad people, there were only a small section of clergy that were bad. We would do well to remember who we are sometimes. We can have very short memories when it suits us, or is convenient.


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## T McGibney (8 Aug 2014)

Go into an interview for a primary teacher position, tell the interview panel that you're _not_ gay and see what happens. 

The vast majority of interviewers don't care tuppence about a candidate's sexual orientation or personal political beliefs -and they don't want to know, either.


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## dereko1969 (8 Aug 2014)

noproblem said:


> You are correct to a point. Just go into an interview for a primary teacher position, tell the interview panel that you're gay and see what happens. One thing's for sure, you will not get the job. If the person looking for the position did their homework, they would be aware of certain rules and regulations in regard to the placement. Some people would say they don't care if their child was taught by a gay teacher, others wouldn't tolerate it. We don't want to open a debate about gays, etc, but there are rules and regulations and people will never agree on all of the rules. Just like the 10 commandments, some think they're silly, others don't. But, it's surprising the amount of Irish people in particular, who like to have a God on their side when things go wrong, even though they've convinced even themselves that religion is insignificant to their lives. I wonder what all those that don't believe think is going to happen in the end, where did they stop the God in their lives, what made it happen and why? Personally, I don't have a problem with religion in our schools one way or the other, but *where would we be education wise without the priests and nuns in the 1st place?* Just like parents that were/are bad people, there were only a small section of clergy that were bad. We would do well to remember who we are sometimes. We can have very short memories when it suits us, or is convenient.



They haven't gone away you know.....

If we had a State that in any way had any pretence to being a proper Republic we would have a secular educational system and would have had it since the foundation of the State. It was cheaper and easier to leave it to those with a vested interest in providing sectarian education (and healthcare too).

Those who want religious education should pay for it without any capitation grants or teacher payment from the State.

It would be nice if, in this decade of commemoration, that we actually finally became a proper Republic.


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## T McGibney (8 Aug 2014)

dereko1969 said:


> Those who want religious education should pay for it without any capitation grants or teacher payment from the State.



Why?


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## monagt (8 Aug 2014)

> Those who want religious education should pay for it without any capitation grants or teacher payment from the State.





> Why?



Why should the state teach religion to children of an Atheist couple?

As far as they are concerned its complete nonsense......


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## T McGibney (8 Aug 2014)

monagt said:


> Why should the state teach religion to children of an Atheist couple?
> 
> As far as they are concerned its complete nonsense......



If you want to go down that road, why should the State teach children about evolution, anthropogenic global warming, the necessity to fluoridate water, or any other random subject, if their parents think it's complete nonsense?


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## monagt (8 Aug 2014)

> If you want to go down that road, why should the State teach children about evolution, anthropogenic global warming, the necessity to fluoridate water, or any other random subject, if their parents think it's complete nonsense?



Evolution??

No, I don't want to down any road, what a person chooses to believe is his/her business and if they choose to believe that evolution is nonsense, then thats OK with me.

I do think that France has the separation of State from Religion right.


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## T McGibney (8 Aug 2014)

monagt said:


> Evolution??
> 
> No, I don't want to down any road, what a person chooses to believe is his/her business and if they choose to believe that evolution is nonsense, then thats OK with me.



But should parents be allowed dictate that their kids not be taught evolution, if they request this? Common sense would suggest not, but that seems to be the logical extension of what you want in relation to the teaching of religion in schools.


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## Sunny (8 Aug 2014)

Talk about threads going off topic......


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## noproblem (8 Aug 2014)

I do believe the debate has now run its course. Some listen, some don't.


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## monagt (8 Aug 2014)

> I do believe the debate has now run its course. Some listen, some don't.



+1 Better to close thread


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## BetsyClark (9 Aug 2014)

Back on topic (lively debate I started!)

The parish priest is indeed the Chair of the BOM and conducted the interview along with the principal and an independentwoman. The interview was held in a meeting room in the church. There was no mention of my views / catholic ethos etc.

Fingers crossed

BC


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## monagt (9 Aug 2014)

> There was no mention of my views / catholic ethos etc.



As people thought, "don't ask, don't tell", an Irish solution to an Irish problem.

Best of luck on the job.


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