# fianna fail in trouble



## joe sod (4 May 2007)

Everything seems to be going wrong for fianna fail now, the media seems to have really turned against them now. What with the "property crash" program a few weeks ago and now being slagged off on "the state of us" program.


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## ninsaga (4 May 2007)

....spoken like a true Fine Gael'r


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## Marcecie (4 May 2007)

joe sod said:


> Everything seems to be going wrong for fianna fail now, the media seems to have really turned against them now. What with the "property crash" program a few weeks ago and now being slagged off on "the state of us" program.



Well I have never voted for a party always for a person that has done some good in my county. This time I was hoping for a solid election run up to see what each party has to offer and so far all I am getting is Bertie and his money problems. It is hard to blame the media when he is so evasive and keeps changing his replies--- money for renovation/stamp duty, given to him and not given to him but to Celia etc.
 After almost 1 week of election talk I still do not know much about policies for FG, when are they removing stamp duty, how many gardai have they priced for etc.
 And as for FF, they were not touching stamp duty very definite about that, so that has changed, what is going to change next.
  The Greens were increasing corporation tax to 17.5% now that is dropped.
Dont get me started on PD shower.
I never liked Pat Rabbitt but of all of them he has been clear when outlining his proposals.
So unless this election run up improves I will again end up voting for a person not a party.


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## shesells (4 May 2007)

Fianna Fail will never be in trouble until the day after polling day. History teaches us Bertie isn't called Teflon for nothing. FF can screw the country and still get elected....but hey, the US electing Bush proves that there is at least one more stupid nation!


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## DrMoriarty (5 May 2007)

If Bertie gets the boot this time, I suppose he can always fall back on the book sales...

[broken link removed]


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## joe sod (5 May 2007)

Why do all fianna failers pronounce fine gael as like "fine" in "fine weather", they must be schooled on this from the central organisation, the same way sinn fein used to refer to the police as securocrats. Its a bit childish really surely they should know the proper pronounciation by now. They are like trigger in "only fools" always calling rodney dave.


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## KalEl (5 May 2007)

joe sod said:


> Why do all fianna failers pronounce fine gael as like "fine" in "fine weather", they must be schooled on this from the central organisation, the same way sinn fein used to refer to the police as securocrats. Its a bit childish really surely they should know the proper pronounciation by now. They are like trigger in "only fools" always calling rodney dave.


 
I don't think I've ever heard anyone saying "Fine Gale"...reckon your imagining it! Blueshirt paranoia...


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## shesells (5 May 2007)

Don't know where you've been KalEl - it's common place among FFers


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## Z100 (5 May 2007)

KalEl said:


> I don't think I've ever heard anyone saying "Fine Gale"...reckon your imagining it!



  You've never heard it pronounced _'Fine _Gael'?!?!


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## shanegl (6 May 2007)

I always thought they pronounced it "feen" gael, rather than fine, or "feena".


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## xavier (7 May 2007)

Marcecie said:


> After almost 1 week of election talk I still do not know much about policies for FG, when are they removing stamp duty, how many gardai have they priced for etc.


 
Time will tell - but I don't think this is an accident.


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## KalEl (7 May 2007)

Bushfire said:


> You've never heard it pronounced _'Fine _Gael'?!?!


 
No, I haven't...generally it's Fin-eh Gale rather than Fine Gale
Find it annoying when people say Cumawn na Gale rather than come-en too


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## Grumpy (8 May 2007)

I still trust Good Oul Bertie.
There is a very simple, straight-forward answer for him getting suitcases full of cash from businessmen while Minister of Finance.
Just as soon as his legal team spend a few days working on his simple answer,  he will tell us....again.
Also, of course, there was a very different culture in 1994.
Even God, at the time, was still working (with his legal team) on the first draft of the Ten Commandments.


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## pinkyBear (14 May 2007)

I am not sure if anyone will agree with me, but my mum and I weer chatting last night, and we were both thinking that Fianna Fail were not really going all out to win the election. 

My mum was saying in the past, what they would do when things were going down hill were to let the election "slide" and FG would go in.. 

Things would get so bad the FF would be reelected like white knights - comming to save the country!


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## Budgie (14 May 2007)

I think its going to be the Bertie and Pat show after the election.  FG will be left swinging in the wind despite pre-election pacts etc.  Nothing like the sniff of power for Labour to abandon previous promises for "the good of the country".


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## Purple (14 May 2007)

Budgie said:


> I think its going to be the Bertie and Pat show after the election.  FG will be left swinging in the wind despite pre-election pacts etc.  Nothing like the sniff of power for Labour to abandon previous promises for "the good of the country".


 I would be very surprised is Pat went into government with Bertie. He seems to be a man of his word and he has been very clear in his opposition to the idea.


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## Megan (14 May 2007)

Purple said:


> I would be very surprised is Pat went into government with Bertie. He seems to be a man of his word and he has been very clear in his opposition to the idea.


Do you think if Fianna Fail don't do well in the election could Bertie be gone and Brian Cowan be elected leader. Maybe Pat would then do business with Fianna Fail and still be a man of his word. Didn't he say he wouldn't work with Bertie - not that he wouldn't work with Fianna Fail.


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## Teabag (14 May 2007)

Bushfire said:


> You've never heard it pronounced _'Fine _Gael'?!?!



Yeah, I have always wondered about that - a lot of people call them 'Fine' Gael (i.e. sounds like Fyne or Fyan) and I think it sounds awful.

Anyone know why this is ? It tends to be older people from outside the Pale.


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## Teabag (14 May 2007)

Megan said:


> Do you think if Fianna Fail don't do well in the election could Bertie be gone and Brian Cowan be elected leader. Maybe Pat would then do business with Fianna Fail and still be a man of his word. Didn't he say he wouldn't work with Bertie - not that he wouldn't work with Fianna Fail.



Cowen took Bruton apart today during the Radio 1 lunchtime show. The discussion was about finances and budgets and how FF/FG/Lab were going to pay for their respective promises. Cowen had Bruton in a spin. He is a grumpy man but I think he would make a good FF leader. I used to think Bruton was a good politician until today. Totally out of his depth.


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## RainyDay (14 May 2007)

Budgie said:


> I think its going to be the Bertie and Pat show after the election.  FG will be left swinging in the wind despite pre-election pacts etc.  Nothing like the sniff of power for Labour to abandon previous promises for "the good of the country".


No Labour member who canvassed in the 97 election (after the FF/Lab deal of 92) will be voting for an FF/Lab deal again. They still bear the scars of the public backlash on that occasion. In practical & policy terms, a Labour/FF alliance makes a lot of sense. However, given our historical context, it is extremely unlikely that this will happen. FF will be talking the the PDs and/or Greens and/or Independents and/or Shinners before they come to Labour. Given the current poll results, there is a reasonable chance that the FG/Lab alternative Govt will be a realistic option, and no Labour leader or member would go to FF first in such circumstances.

Of course, the dream scenario for Labour would be an FF/FG coalition, creating a right/left dynamic in Irish politics, like every other country in Europe (instead of the current Civil War dynamic). How many generations will it be before this comes about?


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## shesells (14 May 2007)

Teabag said:


> Cowen took Bruton apart today during the Radio 1 lunchtime show. The discussion was about finances and budgets and how FF/FG/Lab were going to pay for their respective promises. Cowen had Bruton in a spin. He is a grumpy man but I think he would make a good FF leader. I used to think Bruton was a good politician until today. Totally out of his depth.


 
Sorry, but I thought Cowen showed himself up as being an arrogant bully today. I'm no FF fan but I'd take Bertie over the Bully any day!!


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## Vanilla (15 May 2007)

RainyDay said:


> Of course, the dream scenario for Labour would be an FF/FG coalition, creating a right/left dynamic in Irish politics, like every other country in Europe (instead of the current Civil War dynamic). How many generations will it be before this comes about?


 
What? Can FF be described as right and FG as left definitively?


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## gianni (15 May 2007)

Latest Millward Brown opinion poll  showing FF losing even more ground...


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## Purple (15 May 2007)

Vanilla said:


> What?  Can FF be described as right and FG as left


I thought that traditionally FF were left of centre and FG were right of centre. Garrett the good brought FG to the left but I think Enda is from the more traditional wing of FG. I would not like to see a left/right split in Irish politics as it is overly simplistic and divisive. For example on many social issues Labour and the PD's would be close but on economic issues they are not. I agree with Rainyday that FF and FG are like different sides of the same coin and Labour are, in reality, the only real major opposition from an ideological point of view.


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## RainyDay (15 May 2007)

Vanilla said:


> What? Can FF be described as right and FG as left definitively?



No - What I meant was that FF/FG would live on the centre and right of centre, leaving the left to Labour, with the Greens & Shinners snapping at our heels.


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## Purple (15 May 2007)

RainyDay said:


> No - What I meant was that FF/FG would live on the centre and right of centre, leaving the left to Labour, with the Greens & Shinners snapping at our heels.


I don't see a huge difference between FF, FG or Labour. 
If Labour get in how will they deliver better value for money? I don't see how it can happen without reforming the structures within the civil and public service. I don't see how that can happen without taking on the unions and I can't see Labour doing that. To be honest that's the main reason why I wouldn't vote for them; I think they will increase the amount of money that the exchequer pours into the black hole that is public spending. If I thought for a minute they would be better than the current government, and lets face it's not a big ask, I would be glad to see them in power. I think that Labour under Dick Spring were a positive force for liberal social change the last time they were in government.


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## room305 (15 May 2007)

Purple said:


> If Labour get in how will they deliver better value for money? I don't see how it can happen without reforming the structures within the civil and public service. I don't see how that can happen without taking on the unions and I can't see Labour doing that. To be honest that's the main reason why I wouldn't vote for them; I think they will increase the amount of money that the exchequer pours into the black hole that is public spending.



So you'll vote for a party that has overseen rampant inflation in public spending, on the basis that the opposition _might_ do the same?


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## Purple (15 May 2007)

room305 said:


> So you'll vote for a party that has overseen rampant inflation in public spending, on the basis that the opposition _might_ do the same?



Yep, well kind of; I will vote for them because I fear that the alternative will be worse. Better the devil you know and all that.


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## auto320 (15 May 2007)

The devil we know has a leader who took money from people and then appointed one of them to a state job. I used to vote with blind loyalty for them until the Haghey stuff began to surface, now it seems that this is an ethos within the party. Give me honesty any day instead of this third-world carry on. Swallowing the line that things will somehow be worse if we kick out these scammers shows a certain naivety, but it is understandable enough -- I fell for it myself in the past. Not this time though!


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## jasconius (15 May 2007)

I concur with you Auto.
Besides after ten years in power FF have become stale, arrogant and defensive. They have lost touch with the people.
They have presided over a period in Irish history where we all know the price of everything and the value of nothing.
The two biggest factors controlling the economy are not under the control of FF ie interest rates and EU legislation. They have milked the property cow until she is dry - is it something approaching 40% of all construction spend is garnered back to the goverment in taxes? 
Look at what is happening in Spanish property prices and then look at the drift away of manufacturing jobs in Ireland.
Very soon we will be under enormous pressure to harmonise corporate tax rates across Europe.
I don't see a thickness of a Euro note between FF and FG in their manifestos - first-time buyers, standard rates of tax and tax credits - but for me FF have been sticking their nose in the trough for far too long without looking at the wider picture of globalisation and its pitfalls.

Time for a change lads - but who do I plump for?


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## Purple (16 May 2007)

jasconius said:


> Time for a change lads - but who do I plump for?


 
It's hard to disagree with you and if it wasn't for the fact the a vote for FG is a vote for Pat Rabbitt I would be voting for FG.
They are the only party that has talked about competitiveness and inflation (with the notable exception of Brian Cowan). I just don't think these factors will be major considerations for the Labour party when they are formulating spending plans and I think that Labour will be able to force their agenda through if (and most likely when) they are in power. I have a lot of respect for most of Labour's front bench (except for Liz McManus) and consider them far more able than most of FG's front bench so it's not that I think they are fools, I just don't think they will be able to control spending or get value for money on the spending they do.


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## Vanilla (17 May 2007)

Purple said:


> It's hard to disagree with you and if it wasn't for the fact the a vote for FG is a vote for Pat Rabbitt I would be voting for FG.


 

I'd be more worried about the possibility of Sin Fein linking up with FF. Is this a possibility?


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## pinkyBear (17 May 2007)

> Is this a possibility?


 
A frind of mine thinks it is..however he believes as they become more mainstream their policies will be watered down...

But I too dread the day it happens  - will pack my bags..


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## room305 (17 May 2007)

Vanilla said:


> I'd be more worried about the possibility of Sin Fein linking up with FF. Is this a possibility?



I would say it definitely is. I mean what is all the guff about "incompatible economic policies"? FF know that economic policies can easily be amended. Bertie has already indicated he could do a deal with the Greens and they have pretty much the same economic stance as Sinn Fein.

If the provos do manage to connive a way into government, I'll be joining pinkyBear in fleeing the country.


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## Firefly (17 May 2007)

It will be very interesting to see what happens the stock market if SF get into government...now where did I put dem der share certificates....


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## The_Banker (17 May 2007)

Firefly said:


> It will be very interesting to see what happens the stock market if SF get into government...now where did I put dem der share certificates....


 
I would think the Irish Stock Market is more influenced by International events rather than events at home... Maybe the banks will take a minor hit but they will soon recover.
Now that the Northern Issue has been put to bed Sinn Fein will concentrate more on economic policies. Up until a few years ago Sinn Fein were a single issue party with a few marxist policies thrown in for good measure but now that they have entered the mainstream they will slowly start to water down the marxist ideology. They have already started with corporation tax. They will go the way of Sinn Fein The Workers Party/New Agenda/Democratic Left which morfed into Labour.
At some stage in the future I can see a split in Sinn Fein. The split will come along economic grounds rather than a traditional 'republican' split.
The day will come when Sinn Fein will enter government in the south. And when they do they will be as main stream as all the rest of the parties...


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## room305 (17 May 2007)

The_Banker said:


> ... Maybe the banks will take a minor hit but they will soon recover.



Even after o'Caolain nationalises them?


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## The_Banker (17 May 2007)

room305 said:


> Even after o'Caolain nationalises them?


 
That will not happen. Sinn Fein will soon realise that the time for revolutionary talk is over. Pat Rabbitt wanted to nationalise Banks when he was in the Workers Party. I can remember a Workers Party Ard Fheis in Corks City Hall in the late 80s when Kathleen Lynch, Pat Rabbitt and Phoineas De Rossa were calling each other 'comrade' and delegates were wearing Ché T shirts... Now they are as mainstream as FF/FG..
Once they get a taste of power they will like it and will soon change there policies to ensure re election...
Irish history is littered with this scenario....


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## shesells (17 May 2007)

I really feel we need a change. 3 hours in traffic a day, high taxes (stealth taxes rather than visible ones), ridiculous medical charges, housing unaffordable for so many....Bertie and his crew have had ten years and every one of these issues has got worse.

The only hope for change is to vote FG, so that's what I'll be doing. I respect Enda Kenny for having the guts to stand up and say that he will deliver, or fall on his own sword. I'm going to hopefully give him that chance.


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## ang1170 (17 May 2007)

shesells said:


> The only hope for change is to vote FG, so that's what I'll be doing. I respect Enda Kenny for having the guts to stand up and say that he will deliver, or fall on his own sword. I'm going to hopefully give him that chance.


 
I think that's an excellent use of a vote: some people would even pay cash to see Enda fall on his sword.....


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