# can you suggest dropping price on sale agreed house



## Deleted 15555 (26 Sep 2007)

We sale agreed a house in June (early) and put ours on the market immediately but no luck not even a viable offer. It will leave us really really strapped if we have to rent but we can (mortgage approved) but we have three very small children and really don't want the financial burden of it all - We have waited over two months now for the person who is selling their house (documents to be sorted because of seperation issue) - Do we have any right to go back and say its not at market value now - to give us more cash - it seems like an awful way to do business but I am not sure if the house was put on the market now that it would really sell even the current climate - we are currently not even getting calls on our house and there is only approx 6 other three bed semi's in the town we live in which are comparable.

Thanks


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## doberden (26 Sep 2007)

You have to think of your family.  If you feel that you have paid too much for the house you are buying and this is going to cause you difficulties then I would certainly try to re-negotiate the price.  In the current market prices are dropping quickly so sellers need to move quickly to ensure they go from sale agreed to sold in a short time frame.


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## efm (26 Sep 2007)

At what stage is the contract process? Have contracts been signed by both parties? Contact your solicitor and get them to confirm what your options are re pulling out of sale.  

If contracts haven't been exchanged then you should be able to pull out without financial penalty - but your solicitor should be able to give a definitive answer.

My opinion, and if I was in your position, I would pull out, leave your  house on the market and when you go sale agreed with your own house then start looking - with three kids moving to rented accomodation would be a nightmare and not worth it.  With regard to the moral niceties of doing business this way? I wouldn't worry about it (my opinion!)


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## GarBow (26 Sep 2007)

Is this not comparable to a vendor requesting more money if the house prices had increased over the two months. Not the way to go IMO, but you could chance your arm.


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## LUFC (26 Sep 2007)

So you've gone sale agreed on a house, which is taking time to go thru due to a seperation. In the meantime you have your current home for sale but have no offers.
I might be reading post wrong but do you not need to sell your own home before you can complete sale for new home? otherwise you will be paying two mortgages (new home & current home)??


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## GarBow (26 Sep 2007)

> So you've gone sale agreed on a house, which is taking time to go thru due to a seperation. In the meantime you have your current home for sale but have no offers.
> I might be reading post wrong but do you not need to sell your own home before you can complete sale for new home? otherwise you will be paying two mortgages (new home & current home)??


 
I think that SBW is saying that rather than sell there existing house they could rent it out instead. But only comfortably be able to afford this if the vendor of the new house were to drop the agreed price due to market values.


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## Bronte (27 Sep 2007)

If contracts are not signed there is nothing to stop you renegotiating the price.


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## IFT (27 Sep 2007)

edit...


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## Ret45 (27 Sep 2007)

If you have not signed contracts then i would be honest with the vendor and explain your position - you have not been able to sell your house and have been caught in the market downturn, you are worried about the financial implications of paying for mortgages for two houses, you are seeking allowances of X amount on the price agreed six months ago. If they say no you can still go ahead with the purchase (they will not be keen to put the house back on the market) or you can reevaluate the situation. If you are open about the situation they will be more likely to strike a deal imo.


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## bungaloid (27 Sep 2007)

I would say two things. Firstly, your primary ethical responsibility is to your family not the the seller. Secondly, if you buy a house in a falling market but delay selling your own then you are guaranteed to lose money. And I mean REAL HARD CASH which you never recover. A lot of wealth is being destroyed in the housing market right now and people with young families should take care not to take the brunt of that.


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## ang1170 (27 Sep 2007)

I'd agree with this. In the absense of a signed contract you have absolutely no legal responsibility to the vendor at all.

Stand back and think what you're doing: try a mental picture of taking a pile of €50 notes out and counting them out as you hand them over, and all to save the embarassment of re-negotiating?

It may sound tough, but do yourself a favour and put your family first.


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## Deleted 15555 (28 Sep 2007)

Thanks for all the advice - the vendor is holding up the whole process - because of the separation agreement - and now it turns out the vendors solicitor is not returning calls - holding up the process even further - given todays figure its worrying.

I haven't even managed to get calls on the house - given the present market and yes we can rent it but it would make it really really tight. So obviously I want to pay as little as possible - I also have a 92% mortgage on the new property how would this work if I paid less for it????? or was able to negotiate a new price.

Thanks for all the advice.


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## terrysgirl33 (28 Sep 2007)

Have you signed contracts yet?


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## Deleted 15555 (28 Sep 2007)

No contracts have been signed - there is no sign of them at all yet, this is part of the problem.


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## Deleted 15555 (28 Sep 2007)

can anyone suggest a price then we have agreed 450k ?


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## Ret45 (28 Sep 2007)

Sounds like you won't be in the new house this side of Christmas so you should be thinking of a 10-15 % drop in price. I would be seeking a revised price of 410 k subject to having keys by Christmas and telling them that you will only be prepared to pay 390 k if it drags on into 2008.

If you can't sell your house would you not be better off holding off buying another and staying put for another six months? - gives you more time to find a buyer for your house, and means you are not caught paying high and selling low. You could end up with two houses losing value that you can't sell and with possible interest rates rises that could get expensive, particularly if the rental market slows down and you can't get a tenent for your house. A pessimistic scenario I know but we are in a period of sharp house price falls right now and all the old assuptions need to be revised.


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## decembersal (28 Sep 2007)

ERSI are saying that house prices will have fallen by 15% by the end of this year - this might be a bit of an indicator?


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## gonk (28 Sep 2007)

Ret45 said:


> If you can't sell your house would you not be better off holding off buying another and staying put for another six months? - gives you more time to find a buyer for your house, and means you are not caught paying high and selling low.


 
This is very good advice. If I were in your situation I would pull the plug now on the proposed house purchase and take your own off the market. The vendors' marriage situation is unfortunate, but it's not your problem.

Any further falls in house prices shouldn't make any difference, _as long as you're buying and selling at around the same time._ You could even benefit, if the new house you buy is worth more, but has fallen in percentage terms the same as your current house, the price difference between the two will narrow, costing you less to move.

If you proceed with this deal at the agreed price, you will very likely lose a substantial amount of money.


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## Deleted 15555 (28 Sep 2007)

we can afford to rent our own - so I presume this is the best scenario given the current market. The house is one that we have really wanted for a long time there are only three of them and a family member owns one (next door) so I guess we need to keep this in mind too.


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## gonk (28 Sep 2007)

SBW said:


> we can afford to rent our own - so I presume this is the best scenario given the current market. The house is one that we have really wanted for a long time there are only three of them and a family member owns one (next door) so I guess we need to keep this in mind too.


 
Well in that case, and to come back to your original question, I think you would be perfectly justfied in seeking a reduction in the agreed price.

You say you agreed the deal in early June, so it's now almost four months later. This is well beyond the norm of six to eight weeks from sale agreed to completion. You still haven't even received contracts yet, so the delay is all on the vendors' side and now they're not returning your calls. 

I wouldn't be in the least embarassed to ask for a price cut in all the circumstances . . . .


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## Deleted 15555 (28 Sep 2007)

The vendors solicitor apparently is not taking the calls - ok so I was thinking 5% what do you think - given the current market and this mornings figures approx 15%


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## gonk (28 Sep 2007)

SBW said:


> The vendors solicitor apparently is not taking the calls - ok so I was thinking 5% what do you think - given the current market and this mornings figures approx 15%


 
Hard to say - that 15% figure is a national average and there's scope for a lot of variation in different localities.

Best bet would be to ask advice from the estate agent who's marketing your own house. 

The other question is just how badly you want to buy the house. There's no point going looking for a price cut if you aren't genuinely prepared to walk away if the vendors call your bluff and won't agree.

You could also put it to them that if they don't exchange contracts and complete within a specific timeframe at the agreed price, you will either walk away or reserve the right to renegotiate the price downwards.


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## whizzbang (28 Sep 2007)

SBW said:


> The vendors solicitor apparently is not taking the calls - ok so I was thinking 5% what do you think - given the current market and this mornings figures approx 15%



Where about is the house, prices of second hand places in Dublin dropped 8% in Q2 this year. Could end up being more than 15% in some areas.


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## Trustmeh (28 Sep 2007)

SBW said:


> The house is one that we have really wanted for a long time there are only three of them and a family member owns one (next door) so I guess we need to keep this in mind too.


 
You dont play poker much do you?  I would hope that the vendor doesnt have this info, cause if they know how bad you want the house they will say no to a lower price and call YOUR bluff. At best you might light a fire under them and be in before christmas. Personally If I was prepared to walk away I would certainly chance it in this climate. Whatever is holding this deal up is the vendors problem and he will be sweating losing you believe me.

You are buying with your heart and not your head. This is OK when its your family home and you plan to lie there for 7+ years.


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## Sal92 (28 Sep 2007)

well you have to be in the mind of the seller as well. Maybe they will not sell below a certain figure and if they don't get this they won't sell. You are assuming all sellers are desperate when this may not be the case.


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## Trustmeh (30 Sep 2007)

Im not assuming the seller is desperate. I personally do NOT believe that there are hardly any desperate sellors in Ireland and that is why the housing market is not and will not crash.  
Why should there be many desperate sellors? High unemployment? yeah, not here.  Global recession, not yet at least. AIB or BOI having a run...not likely. Oversupply of houses - where exactly? I dont see a skyline clouded by empty high rises...at least not in most of the country. Foreign emigrants running for sunny shores in droves - still not happening. Rental return getting lower and lower ... not the direction we have seen it heading so far.

If you are alluding that if this buyer puts in a low offer it will not be accepted because the sellor isnt desperate YET? So are you saying she shouldnt even  try and instead offer closer to asking? That is the problem with buyers - not even trying to get a good price.

Desperate or not, if you dont TRY to get a good price the sellor will happily sell at asking.


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## Afuera (1 Oct 2007)

yankinlk said:


> Why should there be many desperate sellors? High unemployment? yeah, not here.  Global recession, not yet at least. AIB or BOI having a run...not likely. Oversupply of houses - where exactly? I dont see a skyline clouded by empty high rises...at least not in most of the country. Foreign emigrants running for sunny shores in droves - still not happening. Rental return getting lower and lower ... not the direction we have seen it heading so far.


You don't need many desperate sellers in a market to get a large discounting of prices. Since prices are set at the margin, if you've a small pool of buyers, and a large pool of sellers, only the most desperate will actually have any success in securing a sale. The OP seems to be very keen on this property in question here though and they realize that there are only 3 of them so it gives the seller an advantage. If the OP could find an alternative property that they would be happy with they could then let the sellers fight against each other to see who wants to sell more.

Regarding your analysis of the economy in Ireland, the rental yield is more important than the rental return when weighing up how sound an investment property is. This has been getting progressively worse over the last few years.
The steady increase in the amount of private debt in Ireland and the frequent use of remortgaging to withdraw equity suggests that things may not be as rosy with the economy as you feel they are. Based on those figures, it appears that high inflation is causing some parts of society, at least, to struggle.
I'd also like to point out that, just because your anecdotal experience does not know where the empty properties are located in Ireland it does not mean that they're not out there. The CSO's figures have a breakdown on a county-by-county level, if you're interested enough in actually checking out the facts.


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## Deleted 15555 (1 Oct 2007)

This will be a family home for 7+ years and hopefully more !! I went to the EA and she ate me - told me it wasn't a very nice thing to do and how would I feel if I was the person selling - also said if I had sold my house at the asking price this wouldn't be an issue. needless to say I was very upset about the whole thing - we do really want this house this is the problem..... its a perfect house for us and has great potential e.g attic conversation etc etc My Husband dosen't now want to go an re neg the price he is afraid we will loose the sale..... and no I don't play poker ... but I didn't need to answer that anyway did I  !


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## gonk (1 Oct 2007)

SBW said:


> I went to the EA and she ate me - told me it wasn't a very nice thing to do and how would I feel if I was the person selling - also said if I had sold my house at the asking price this wouldn't be an issue.


 
Well, she would say that, wouldn't she! How the vendors feel is irrelevant - there can be very little doubt that if they have to put the house back on the market now, they will have to reduce the price in order to get a sale. One could also say, if they had completed the sale in a timely way a price reduction wouldn't be an issue because the deal would be done and dusted.

If you really have your hearts set on this particular house, then I guess you'll just have to swallow it, but don't let that EA make you think you're doing anything wrong in attempting to renegotiate the price. If the vendors and their solicitors hadn't been dragging their heels for so long the question wouldn't even have arisen.


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## Trustmeh (1 Oct 2007)

Afuera said:


> Regarding your analysis of the economy in Ireland, the rental yield is more important than the rental return when weighing up how sound an investment property is. This has been getting progressively worse over the last few years.



Maybe it was getting worse, but now rental yeild is getting better...every day the prices come back and the rent continues to rise.



Afuera said:


> I'd also like to point out that, just because your anecdotal experience does not know where the empty properties are located in Ireland it does not mean that they're not out there. The CSO's figures have a breakdown on a county-by-county level, if you're interested enough in actually checking out the facts.



Empty properties or empty high rises? Im sure there are loads of empty houses out there, but I dont think there are many empty rental properties.


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## Trustmeh (1 Oct 2007)

SBW said:


> My Husband dosen't now want to go an re neg the price he is afraid we will loose the sale..... and no I don't play poker ... but I didn't need to answer that anyway did I  !



And the EA is the best poker player around. Hes playing a hand of cards with OPM, other peoples money.  He doesnt care about your needs - just his clients and his commision. If the deal falls through (which is a high possibility if you try to negotiate) then POOF there goes your deposit/his commision.

If you want to lower the price then you have to take the chance of walking away.


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## DerKaiser (1 Oct 2007)

I think you need to look at this in a very cold way.  You seem to have developed an emotional attachment to the new house which is not good.


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## Afuera (2 Oct 2007)

yankinlk said:


> Maybe it was getting worse, but now rental yeild is getting better...every day the prices come back and the rent continues to rise.


True, the trend has changed very recently.



yankinlk said:


> Empty properties or empty high rises? Im sure there are loads of empty houses out there, but I dont think there are many empty rental properties.


The CSO does not make a distinction. Empty properties can easily be added to the rental supply so I'm not sure why they need to be kept separate. If yields continue to get better you'll see more rental supply being added. While yields are low it makes more sense financially to sell up and lock in gains, so I think this is what we are seeing happening right now.

I agree that the OP sounds very attached to this property, which unfortunately is not going to help their cause. I suggest they take a step back and look for alternative properties so that the EA will not pick up on their desperation for this one property. Business is business, so don't let the EA guilt you into paying more than you should/are comfortable with.


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## jazzhead (2 Oct 2007)

as gonk says, if they have to put house up for sale again they would have to reduce price, dont let ea pressure u, the house is not worth original price in todays market, imo u would be mad not to  reduce offer


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## AppleSun (2 Oct 2007)

hmmm.. ok i understand that with you not selling your house that things will be tight...

a couple of things....

1. does your mortgage approval state that your other mortgage must be drawn down prior to mortgage for new house? if so then renting and keeping old mortgage is not an option unless you get that changed.

2. Why go sale agreed on a house when you aren't really in the position to buy it? (until you sell your own)

3. If you were sale agreed on your property now and buyer came back to you and told you they wanted you to drop the pricve by 20-30k due to market conditions.. what would you say to them? would this make it tighter for you to buy the new house??? what i'm saying is the sellers of ur new house may not be able to afford to reduce the price if they have gone sale agreed/signed contracts on a trade up....


pay what you think the house is worth to you....


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## Carolina (2 Oct 2007)

You need to consider you alternatives, look for other houses you can afford or decide if you can stay in your existing house and then present these alternatives to the vendor or his agent as their problem. 

'I would love to buy this house but the problem is that prices have fallen and I can't sell my house now so I think I may have to pull out ( or buy another a house I can afford with a realistic price). I am so sorry.' 

Then you wait for them to call you back. Over time they come to terms with their loss and become rational. This won't happen in 1 hour or 1 day. The longer you wait in a falling market the stronger your hand. You never have to actually suggest that they drop the price. You should be willing to go through your alternative choice for it to be credible.

As an aside, I once bought a house in a rising market from a divorcing couple and it took a year to complete as they had two solicitors and couldn't agree anything. They couldn't even get it together to gazump me. So, even if you were to offer asking price, your deal may be far from completing.

I can't believe you feel bad for the estate agent.


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## Deleted 15555 (2 Oct 2007)

The EA is related to me so genuinely he dosen't have anything to gain from the sale - he is getting very little on the sale I know this for a fact I I bought the house off the vendor well before it went to the market. I knew this before this issue ever arose. He has said he has never had to re-negotiate the price of a house. The house is approx between 50k and 20k cheaper than any other houses which are similiar to it in the area at the moment so maybe we are getting a good price on it - I don't know -..... its a tough one for me - and for me we did have a gentlemans agreement when we went sale agreed. What about getting a survey done on the house and if anything then comes up on it going from there...


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## plant43 (2 Oct 2007)

Why did you go sale agreed on a house that you haven't even had a survey done on?


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