# Baptism - yes or no?



## haminka1 (18 Mar 2010)

We wanted to have our baby girl baptized but with all the mess and scandals surrounding Catholic church at the moment we just really don't know if this is the right decision. There is so much hypocrisy and immorality in the organization that I literally feel disgusted at the thought of condemning my baby to become a part of it. 
At the end of the day, should baptism be really about giving your child a cold head wash and then throw a big party where on both occasions your baby is barely aware of what is going on? Or should it be a personal decision to become a part of a church by an individual who is mature enough to make the choice?


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## Sol28 (18 Mar 2010)

You need to ask yourselves the questions

Are we religious
Do we attend mass/service
Will we bring them up in the spirit of the church
Can we seperarte the church and faith from the actions of some individuals
If the answer to ALL of the above is not YES - then you should not baptize your child. If you are doing it for a day out, or because its the done thing to do then you are perpetuating a lie.

If you are religious but do not liek your current church - well why not switch to an alternative flavour of your religion. One where the beliefs match your own.

I object to people who do not attend mass and have no interest in the church - turning up for the ceremonial aspects. 

Myself, I am anti-religion because it seperates people and is inherently bigoted. I have recently opted out of the church by using the facilities of Countmeout.ie


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## Complainer (18 Mar 2010)

Some good discussion around the school-related impacts of this issue on;

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=134195


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## haminka1 (18 Mar 2010)

Complainer said:


> Some good discussion around the school-related impacts of this issue on;
> 
> http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=134195



i'm aware of this and that's also a moral problem for me ... be hypocritical or give my kid a better education? however, what if they stuff her head with nonsense before she can think for herself? the church seems to go on offensive instead of practicing some repentance and humility ..
plus, is the abuse really dead?


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## The_Banker (18 Mar 2010)

Sol28 said:


> You need to ask yourselves the questions
> Are we religious
> Do we attend mass/service
> Will we bring them up in the spirit of the church
> ...


 
I would answer a definate no to all 4 questions... But my missus (who would answer no to 2 of these questions wants baptism...

Could lead to lots of arguing.


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## Complainer (18 Mar 2010)

haminka1 said:


> i'm aware of this and that's also a moral problem for me ... be hypocritical or give my kid a better education? however, what if they stuff her head with nonsense before she can think for herself? the church seems to go on offensive instead of practicing some repentance and humility ..
> plus, is the abuse really dead?


Wait until she comes back and looks you in the eye and says 'Dad, you're not holy'! 

We're in a similar situation, as the Missus would take a far more traditional approach to these things to me. So we opted for the parish school for reasons outlined on this thread. I won't lie, but I won't actively block or disparage the stuff that they are covering at school, and they have picked up on my different views on these things.


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## truthseeker (18 Mar 2010)

haminka1 said:


> however, what if they stuff her head with nonsense before she can think for herself?


 
This says it all really haminka1 - if you think what the church teaches is nonsense - then why bother with a baptism?


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## Caveat (18 Mar 2010)

+1

What is your main fear about not baptising?


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## haminka1 (18 Mar 2010)

truthseeker said:


> This says it all really haminka1 - if you think what the church teaches is nonsense - then why bother with a baptism?



i don't think teaching about faith is nonsense - i think their current attitude and defense of the abuse cover-up /Mgr. Dooley anyone?/ is nonsense and arrogant


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## haminka1 (18 Mar 2010)

Caveat said:


> +1
> 
> What is your main fear about not baptising?



that i may be depriving my baby of better education at a really good school nearby


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## gunnerfitzy (18 Mar 2010)

haminka1 said:


> i'm aware of this and that's also a moral problem for me ... be hypocritical or give my kid a better education?



It is because of this that I feel more and more parents baptise their children. Were the RC church to cease managing our primary schools I think there would be a significant drop in baptisms.

I don't wish to appear cynical but it is my opinion that the church is very happy to this to continue.

The most important question is do you want your child to be brought up in the RC faith?

There are other questions whose answers may have a bearing such as:

1. The imposition of a religion on a new born baby?

2. Do you believe that the institution of the church has failed or just individuals?


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## MrMan (18 Mar 2010)

haminka1 said:


> i'm aware of this and that's also a moral problem for me ... be hypocritical or give my kid a better education? however, what if they stuff her head with nonsense before she can think for herself? the church seems to go on offensive instead of practicing some repentance and humility ..
> *plus, is the abuse really dead?*



Of course it isn't dead, and just like you should keep vigil with your child around a priest, you should also realise that uncles, aunts, teachers, coaches, basically anyone with access to your child could be an abuser. the liklihood is that those people are not abusers as is the liklihood that your parish priest is not.


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## MrMan (18 Mar 2010)

haminka1 said:


> i don't think teaching about faith is nonsense - i think their current attitude and defense of the abuse cover-up /Mgr. Dooley anyone?/ is nonsense and arrogant




Have you spoken to your PP? Not all priests fall into line with decisions made by the Vatican. It is important to realise that when discussing the attitudes of the RC and the Vatican that we don't account for the attitudes of all priests.


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## mathepac (18 Mar 2010)

haminka1 said:


> ... At the end of the day, should baptism be really about giving your child a cold head wash and then throw a big party where on both occasions your baby is barely aware of what is going on? ...


If you believe that is the totality of what baptism is about then maybe you should give it a miss.


haminka1 said:


> ... Or should it be a personal  decision to become a part of a church by an individual who is mature  enough to make the choice?


Parents make lots of strategic decisions with wide-ranging implications for their children, who are too young to make those decisions for themselves, because that is what parents are supposed to do (where to live, what schools / doctors to attend, etc.); good parents will make those decisions based on what is for the child's long-term benefit, based on the parents' own life experiences.


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## haminka1 (18 Mar 2010)

MrMan said:


> Have you spoken to your PP? Not all priests fall into line with decisions made by the Vatican. It is important to realise that when discussing the attitudes of the RC and the Vatican that we don't account for the attitudes of all priests.



Well, you see no big protests from the ordinary priests and the bosses are having a field day pretending everything is fine even though more and more cover-up is discovered Europe-wide.
That's why I have a big problem having my baby baptized without her making the choice by and for herself. I was baptized myself because my Granny couldn't stand the idea of having a little pagan in the family while my Mum and Dad were rather relaxed and kept saying that it's entirely up to ourselves what we do with our beliefs, so when she had the chance to baby-sit she grabbed the pram and ran to her church to give me a shower before my parents could say anything about it.


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## haminka1 (18 Mar 2010)

mathepac said:


> If you believe that is the totality of what baptism is about then maybe you should give it a miss.



mathepac, baptism shows that the person is recognizing the teachings of the particular church and wants to be an active participant. a few weeks old baby can hardly make the decision. 

Parents make lots of strategic decisions with wide-ranging implications for their children, who are too young to make those decisions for themselves, because that is what parents are supposed to do (where to live, what schools / doctors to attend, etc.); good parents will make those decisions based on what is for the child's long-term benefit, based on the parents' own life experiences.[/QUOTE]

I believe that faith isn't something parents should decide for their baby - I was baptized as a Catholic and acknowledge beliefs of the church, that's why I was thinking Catholic baptism - however, I don't believe the common practice to decide for your baby is the right one.


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## annR (18 Mar 2010)

So why were you thinking of having your baby baptised at all then?



> We wanted to have our baby girl baptized but with all the mess and scandals surrounding Catholic church at the moment we just really don't know if this is the right decision.


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## annR (18 Mar 2010)

mathepac said:


> if you believe that is the totality of what baptism is about then maybe you should give it a miss.
> 
> Parents make lots of strategic decisions with wide-ranging implications for their children, who are too young to make those decisions for themselves, because that is what parents are supposed to do (where to live, what schools / doctors to attend, etc.); good parents will make those decisions based on what is for the child's long-term benefit, based on the parents' own life experiences.


 
+1


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## Mpsox (18 Mar 2010)

Sol28 said:


> You need to ask yourselves the questions
> Are we religious
> Do we attend mass/service
> Will we bring them up in the spirit of the church
> ...


 
As a practicising Catholic I would agree with much, if not all of this( bar the last paragraph obviously enough , ) but that's a discussion for another day.

Personnally, I don't consider the church to be simply a building and the clergy, to me it is a sense of community and baptism is a welcoming cermony into that community. 

Interestingly, in my parish, when we baptised my own daughter, virtually all of the pre-planning for the cermony did not involve a priest or anyone from the clergy, instead all of this was done by a lay person as the parish has a team of volunteers who do this.


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## Towger (18 Mar 2010)

Just do what a former neighbour of mine did. He got the child baptised COI, despite being RC, an altar boy and the granny being a daily attendee. 
The advantages were getting the child easily into the local COI school and for obvious reasons the clergy are far less lightly to have undesirable tendencies. Oh and don't forget none of the 1st holy communion "how much money did you make" carryon.


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## haminka1 (18 Mar 2010)

annR said:


> So why were you thinking of having your baby baptised at all then?



tradition, which makes it a condition for a better educational standard over here


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## Caveat (18 Mar 2010)

haminka1 said:


> tradition, which makes it a condition for a *better educational standard* over here


 
This isn't accurate at all.  _Standard _of education has nothing to do with it. Easier access to available education - arguably, yes.


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## MrMan (18 Mar 2010)

Towger said:


> Just do what a former neighbour of mine did. He got the child baptised COI, despite being RC, an altar boy and the granny being a daily attendee.
> The advantages were getting the child easily into the local COI school and for *obvious reasons the clergy are far less lightly to have undesirable tendencies.* Oh and don't forget none of the 1st holy communion "how much money did you make" carryon.



You might want to explain that one.


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## haminka1 (18 Mar 2010)

Caveat said:


> This isn't accurate at all.  _Standard _of education has nothing to do with it. Easier access to available education - arguably, yes.



i'd beg to differ


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## Caveat (18 Mar 2010)

haminka1 said:


> i'd beg to differ


 
As you wish, but if you are going to differ maybe you should offer an explanation for your claim - or at least confirm what you are claiming.

Are you saying that by baptising your baby (RC, COI or whatever) you will ensure a better *standard* of education for them?  and if so, why?


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## annR (18 Mar 2010)

Mpsox said:


> Personnally, I don't consider the church to be simply a building and the clergy, to me it is a sense of community and baptism is a welcoming cermony into that community.


 
Mpsox, how do you feel then about people who are a reluctant part of that community as they are baptising their kids to get them into the school.  Does that not make you question the role that community has in our society?


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## MrMan (18 Mar 2010)

haminka1 said:


> Well, you see no big protests from the ordinary priests and the bosses are having a field day pretending everything is fine even though more and more cover-up is discovered Europe-wide.
> That's why I have a big problem having my baby baptized without her making the choice by and for herself. I was baptized myself because my Granny couldn't stand the idea of having a little pagan in the family while my Mum and Dad were rather relaxed and kept saying that it's entirely up to ourselves what we do with our beliefs, so when she had the chance to baby-sit she grabbed the pram and ran to her church to give me a shower before my parents could say anything about it.



Protesting isn't really what priests do is it? They believe that they must carry out the word of God and they believe that they will be tested throughout their lives, this may be considered a serious test of their faith, either way its not cut and dried.
Your descriptions of baptism would suggest that you have absolutley no respect for the process so why even consider it? If you view baptism and the church with disdain then just carry on without them.


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## haminka1 (18 Mar 2010)

Caveat said:


> As you wish, but if you are going to differ maybe you should offer an explanation for your claim - or at least confirm what you are claiming.
> 
> Are you saying that by baptising your baby (RC, COI or whatever) you will ensure a better *standard* of education for them?  and if so, why?



the nearest school is catholic and is far better than the ET school - most ET schools are full of kids from immigrant families with poor English and as such the whole standard suffers as these kids have to learn English first thus delaying others as well


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## haminka1 (18 Mar 2010)

MrMan said:


> Protesting isn't really what priests do is it? They believe that they must carry out the word of God and they believe that they will be tested throughout their lives, this may be considered a serious test of their faith, either way its not cut and dried.
> Your descriptions of baptism would suggest that you have absolutley no respect for the process so why even consider it? If you view baptism and the church with disdain then just carry on without them.



MrMan, where did I show any disrespect to baptism? Yes, for a baby it's ultimately nothing but an unpleasant cold shower. For a mature person though, it's the expression of their beliefs and belonging to an organization representing these beliefs.


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## Complainer (18 Mar 2010)

haminka1 said:


> most ET schools are full of kids from immigrant families with poor English


Nonsense.


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## haminka1 (18 Mar 2010)

Complainer said:


> Nonsense.



that's the experience shared by my colleagues who are non-Irish and their kids attend these schools because they are not catholic


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## annR (18 Mar 2010)

I'm starting to feel like I can't win - baptise the child and send her to an RC school and I'm a hyprocrite, send her to ET and I'm compromising her education, send her to a Gaelscoil and I'm an elitist snob.  Oh yeah or fork out for a private school.  Hmmm what to do.  Newsflash Haminka, there isn't a perfect solution.


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## Complainer (18 Mar 2010)

haminka1 said:


> that's the experience shared by my colleagues who are non-Irish and their kids attend these schools because they are not catholic


That is not my experience based on family, friends and workmates with kids in ET schools.


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## mathepac (18 Mar 2010)

annR said:


> ...  Newsflash Haminka, there isn't a perfect solution.


+1 Very succinct - it's I was what I trying to say earlier.


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## haminka1 (18 Mar 2010)

Complainer said:


> That is not my experience based on family, friends and workmates with kids in ET schools.



may depend on where you live


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## Complainer (18 Mar 2010)

haminka1 said:


> may depend on where you live


Perhaps you should have been clear in your original comment that this referred to your particular area, instead of referring to 'most ET schools'?


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## haminka1 (18 Mar 2010)

annR said:


> I'm starting to feel like I can't win - baptise the child and send her to an RC school and I'm a hyprocrite, send her to ET and I'm compromising her education, send her to a Gaelscoil and I'm an elitist snob.  Oh yeah or fork out for a private school.  Hmmm what to do.  Newsflash Haminka, there isn't a perfect solution.



believe me, i know - but that's my feelings. are they yours as well?


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## Mpsox (18 Mar 2010)

annR said:


> Mpsox, how do you feel then about people who are a reluctant part of that community as they are baptising their kids to get them into the school. Does that not make you question the role that community has in our society?


 
Personnaly, I would never have an issue with a child being baptised, regardless of what the parents do or do not believe in and regardless of their motivation in getting the child baptised. Why would I? After all, it is not the parents being baptised, it's the child. 

I grew up in the country and our local NS was almost all RC but the local COI kids went there as well and there was never any issue about it. Indeed I have family members who are Christian Scientists and they've never faced any issues in relation to getting their children into RC managed schools. I've never come accross a situation where a child was refused admission to a local RC managed school because they were not baptised, indeed, in my own local school there are kids attending who are not Christian, not to mind being RC/COI or whatever, and that is in a major rural town.

Having said that, and before someone jumps down my throat, I accept it probably happens elsewhere, in particuler in areas where the infrastructure has not kept pace with the growth in population in a specific area. The Church educated half the country over the last 100 or so years, but times have changed and I wouldn't have an issue if the RC lost control over a large chunk, if not all of the management of schools.


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## MrMan (18 Mar 2010)

haminka1 said:


> MrMan, where did I show any disrespect to baptism? Yes, for a baby it's ultimately nothing but an unpleasant cold shower. For a mature person though, it's the expression of their beliefs and belonging to an organization representing these beliefs.



Either way you have summed things up nicely yourself, so if you feel that the church and baptism is an 'expression of their beliefs and belonging to an organization representing these beliefs'. then you should go ahead with the baptism, and if you feel otherwise then it makes perfect sense to forego a ritual that would only be cosmetic to you and your child.


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## johnd (20 Mar 2010)

Mpsox said:


> A
> 
> 
> 
> Interestingly, in my parish, when we baptised my own daughter, virtually all of the pre-planning for the cermony did not involve a priest or anyone from the clergy, instead all of this was done by a lay person as the parish has a team of volunteers who do this.



I'd put 100 to 1 that it was women involved and that it is mostly women who do the cleaning,the flowers and the sandwich making. Despite everything we have learned over past 20 years these biddies are still running after the priests and fussing over them. They actually think the priests appreciate them and their work. In truth most priests probably regard them as a bit of a joke.


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## Bronte (22 Mar 2010)

Sol28 said:


> Are we religious
> Do we attend mass/service
> Will we bring them up in the spirit of the church
> Can we seperarte the church and faith from the actions of some individuals


 
And don't forget in relation to point 3 this would mean that for example understanding your seemingly innocent newborn baby actually has original sin, and baptism cleanses this and later in life should your child have sex outside marriage he would be committing mortal sin and must never take contraception nor have sterilisation.  He would also have to believe in immaculate conception and the fact that the mother of Christ had a virgin birth and what this means for all other women who give birth is that they are basically dirty, in the past women were routinely 'churched' to become clean again.   And let's not mention divorce or the mornning after pill.  What an amazing organisation to be part of.


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## Sol28 (22 Mar 2010)

Exactly Bronte, And some people belief in all that... ahem.... crap! Thats why i suggested that if you dont believe in your version of the church - why not bring them up in the spirit of another church. If RC - go COI or unitarian, where the dogma is not against your own personal beliefs. And if your not religious, and do not follow the rules - well then DO NOT baptize your child - its a farce!


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