# Should dogs be kept on lead in Public Parks



## liaconn (22 Feb 2010)

I was in Bushy Park with my nephew (aged 4) on Saturday morning feeding the ducks. A dog who looked like a bulldog came running up to him and started jumping around him. My nephew was screaming and I was terrified as well. The owner, who was several yards away just very mildly called 'Oscar, Oscar' having absolutely no effect. Eventually I shouted at him in a fury to call the dog off at which stage he made slightly more effort and called him away (not bothering to apologise or even look at me in the process). My understanding is that dogs are meant to be on a lead in the park. Does anyone know if I'm right?


----------



## truthseeker (22 Feb 2010)

You'd have to check the park rules, but Im nearly sure that the answer is Yes, they have to be on a lead in a public place.
I know Marlay Park have it explicitly stated in the rules, and a park ranger will drive over and tell you to leash the dog if its off leash - they have a dog park where owners are free to de-leash the dogs, but not in the park itself.

I feel your pain, badly behaved dogs off leash is a particular pet hate of mine - it drives me nuts.


----------



## JP1234 (22 Feb 2010)

As far as I know they should be kept "under control" which would indicate to me being on a lead ( how else can you control a dog in a public place!)  I agree they should be on a lead when out in the public, whether it be parks, beaches or just out for a walk. Our dog is never off the lead once she is outside except in our enclosed back garden. She is a nervous animal and I have lost count of how many times she has been startled by unleashed dogs running up to her - while the owners blissfully look on!


----------



## Sunny (22 Feb 2010)

Majority of times they do. Some area allow dogs off leashes but I can't imagine that Bushy Park is one. Also some breeds of dogs also need to be muzzled.


----------



## liaconn (22 Feb 2010)

What really upset me was that my nephew stepped back in fright and could have fallen into the pond. I really think in areas where there are children and water, dogs should *have* to be on a lead and not free to run off and bound up on small kids.


----------



## truthseeker (22 Feb 2010)

I think they do HAVE to be on a lead in Bushy Park - but you just experienced an irresponsible owner who ignored the rules. Unfortunately in this country where control of dogs is not enforced there are many irresponsible owners who just let the dogs do what they like.


----------



## liaconn (22 Feb 2010)

I've emailed Dublin City Council recounting the incident and asking for clarification on the rule re dog leads. If they confirm that dogs must be on leads anywhere in the park I'm going to suggest that they put a *BIG *sign up at the pond reminding dog owners of this, as some of them are obviously too stupid/thoughtless/self absorbed to work out for themselves that this is not a good place to have dogs running free and leaping around small kids (and nervous of dog adults like myself). This happened to me before in the same place and that time the dog owner told me his dog was 'entitled' to be off the lead so I needn't be giving him dirty looks. Again, not one word of apology or concern re an obviously terrified child.


----------



## WaterWater (22 Feb 2010)

Maybe take a picture of the dog with it's owner and pass it on to the park warden who will have a quiet word in the owner's ear next time they come in to the park.


----------



## liaconn (22 Feb 2010)

Actually, I thought of that afterwards and wish I'd done it.


----------



## Yachtie (22 Feb 2010)

Never mind the park rules, as a dog owner, I would never let our dog off the lead. He is as friendly as they get and really a big cuddly pup (8 yr old lab) but not everyone would see him that way and there are people who are scared of dogs for their own reasons.

I think you are wasting your time contacting the council or the park rangers. It's down to the owner who is most likely aware of the park rules yet choses to ignore them.


----------



## MelF (22 Feb 2010)

liaconn said:


> I was in Bushy Park with my nephew (aged 4) on Saturday morning feeding the ducks. A dog who looked like a bulldog came running up to him and started jumping around him. My nephew was screaming and I was terrified as well. The owner, who was several yards away just very mildly called 'Oscar, Oscar' having absolutely no effect.


 
Are you sure you're not overreacting a little? Sounds like the dog was only being playful and your nephew most likely picked up on your 'terror'.


----------



## truthseeker (23 Feb 2010)

MelF said:


> Are you sure you're not overreacting a little? Sounds like the dog was only being playful and your nephew most likely picked up on your 'terror'.


 
So what if the dog was only being playful? The point being made is that the dog was not under control of its owner. 
It doesnt matter if the dog was snarling, barking, wagging its tail or sitting giving the paw - the dog was not under its owners control in a public place.

Because an owner cannot predict the behaviour of every person their dog encounters then they cannot predict theirs dogs reaction to each person it encounters. An unpredictable situation can lead to confusion for the animal and a possible attack.


----------



## Caveat (23 Feb 2010)

Practically all the dogs I see in parks are off their leashes. These are in parks where I know it isn't permitted BTW.


----------



## liaconn (23 Feb 2010)

MelF said:


> Are you sure you're not overreacting a little? Sounds like the dog was only being playful and your nephew most likely picked up on your 'terror'.


 
This is the kind of insensitive attitude that annoys me - 'ah shure he's only playing' as a child screams his head off in fright.

The point is that some people are afraid of dogs and, as truthseeker said, some dogs are unpredictable which is why, presumably, there are laws and regulations regarding where they can and cannot be let off the leash. My nephew started screaming the minute the dog bounded up at him (he was nearly as big as my nephew) and was not picking up on my terror. Even if he was, why does this excuse the adult who owned the dog failing to deal with the situation or to apologise for any upset he had caused, particularly as he was the one in the wrong and it was a little 4 yr old who was distressed. I got an email back from Dublin City Council who have confirmed that, after 11am, dogs must be on a lead everywhere in the park. Presumably this particular moron decided to ignore that.

As we were walking back home along the river path a girl passed us holding her dog by the actual collar. She laughed when she saw me looking and said 'I have to hold him like this. He loves children and is inclined to jump up at them'. That is the kind of common sense attitude that all dog owners should have not the stupid 'don't worry, he won't hurt you. He just likes jumping all over strangers and enjoying himself'.


----------



## Latrade (23 Feb 2010)

We have a nearby small park with a small running track. I use it occasionally. Same thing, council bans dogs being off the lead, but none of those who walk their dogs observe it. It's a great motivation to keep running with a pack of hounds following you, plus the additional hurdles of avoiding dog droppings adds to the cardio workout (seriously, what do these people feed their dogs, it's like an elephant enclosure).

But it's good to note that the person mainly responsbile for letting their dog of the lead is the the ex-mayor of the area and current member of the LA, or I should say he's the one I see most frequently. He doesn't even bother to call the dog back after it chases you or bounds up to you or tries to jump at you. I was humoured at his anger when for the 4th time in 10 minutes his dog ran at me and jumped up at me he threatened to call the gardai when I kicked the dog in the un-neutered region. 

Yup, it was animal cruelty, but then if a farmer can shoot a dog for worrying their sheep, I can use a size 12 Asic to enjoy my run to the local bylaws.

I would also say those extendable leads do not mean the dog is under control as very often even on footpaths I've seen owners allow their dogs to charge at people. As the french don't say: "votre chien, ma botte"

As an aside, the same ex-mayor also parks their car on the footpath in our estate (largely because their garage is full of old election posters) meaning that all pedestrians have to cross the road at a blind corner.


----------



## MelF (23 Feb 2010)

liaconn said:


> This is the kind of insensitive attitude that annoys me - 'ah shure he's only playing' as a child screams his head off in fright.
> 
> The point is that some people are afraid of dogs and, as truthseeker said, some dogs are unpredictable which is why, presumably, there are laws and regulations regarding where they can and cannot be let off the leash. My nephew started screaming the minute the dog bounded up at him (he was nearly as big as my nephew) and was not picking up on my terror. Even if he was, why does this excuse the adult who owned the dog failing to deal with the situation or to apologise for any upset he had caused, particularly as he was the one in the wrong and it was a little 4 yr old who was distressed. I got an email back from Dublin City Council who have confirmed that, after 11am, dogs must be on a lead everywhere in the park. Presumably this particular moron decided to ignore that.
> 
> As we were walking back home along the river path a girl passed us holding her dog by the actual collar. She laughed when she saw me looking and said 'I have to hold him like this. He loves children and is inclined to jump up at them'. That is the kind of common sense attitude that all dog owners should have not the stupid 'don't worry, he won't hurt you. He just likes jumping all over strangers and enjoying himself'.


 
Believe me it works both ways. While I always have my dog on a leash, I'm sick to the teeth of other people's little darlings running up and patting (ie whacking) my dog on the head and pulling at his ears while the parents look on adoringly. I wouldn't blame a dog for lashing out in some cases yet if he did there would be hell to pay. Just try and keep in mind that not all dogs are out to get you!


----------



## truthseeker (23 Feb 2010)

Gggggrrrrrrr - the 'ah shure he is only playing' or 'dont worry, he wont go near you he just barks cos he is excited' attitude really annoys me.

A dog went for me last year when I was out walking up the mountains in a Coillte site. The owners didnt even budge from where they were sitting. The comments of 'oh she just likes to play guard dog' did nothing for me while I had a snapping, snarling dog charging me. Im only sorry I didnt wait in the carpark and take their reg and report them for it.

Im not even afraid of dogs - but irresponsible owners do my head in.


----------



## truthseeker (23 Feb 2010)

MelF said:


> Believe me it works both ways. While I always have my dog on a leash, I'm sick to the teeth of other people's little darlings running up and patting (ie whacking) my dog on the head and pulling at his ears while the parents look on adoringly. I wouldn't blame a dog for lashing out in some cases yet if he did there would be hell to pay. Just try and keep in mind that not all dogs are out to get you!


 
But as the dogs owner, and an adult, it is your responsibility to (a) walk away from other peoples children and/or (b) tell them (and their parents) not to touch the dog.

You can speak to a child or walk away. You cant do that with a dog not under control.


----------



## MelF (23 Feb 2010)

My point is that parents of excitable children can be just as irresponsible as owners of excitable dogs - surely there is an onus on both to ensure that a situation doesn't end in tears for everyone?


----------



## truthseeker (23 Feb 2010)

MelF said:


> My point is that parents of excitable children can be just as irresponsible as owners of excitable dogs - surely there is an onus on both to ensure that a situation doesn't end in tears for everyone?


 
But an excitable child is not likely to bite you or your dog - I would hope 
You can always move off with your leashed dog. Its a lot harder to move off from a dog out of control.

A child is not an unpredictable animal. A dog is.


----------



## Latrade (23 Feb 2010)

To be completely facetious: how many reports are there of children or people being attacked by dogs? How does that compare to the amount of reports of dogs being attacked by unrestrained toddlers?


----------



## seriams (23 Feb 2010)

I was thinking about this recently as my dog loves to be off the lead and once I have treats on me, I'm in control. I wait until very late at night or very early morning to take him out because he does get excited when children are around. But wouldn't it be great if there were public areas where dogs are accepted off leash? I'd love to take him for a run in the local forest however plenty signs up to say leash required.


----------



## Jim Davis (23 Feb 2010)

Whinge whinge whinge. Sounds like parents of little Naoise and Fionn are worried that the dog might bite their little angel. Meanwhile they have their kids screaming at the table beside you and the parents don't say a word because "I won't raise my children that way" or "don't tell me how to raise my child"

Build a bridge


----------



## liaconn (23 Feb 2010)

I agree with Truthseeker. It's very easy to say to a child 'no no don't do that. He doesn't like it' and walk away if necessary. You can't reason with a dog so it is entirely the owner's responsibility to make sure he's not annoying or scaring people. Also, the law is that the dog should be on a leash so any owner who ignores this is automatically in the wrong. In any case, what kind of an idiot would let an excitable dog run around a pond jumping at small kids?


----------



## MelF (23 Feb 2010)

Latrade said:


> To be completely facetious: how many reports are there of children or people being attacked by dogs? How does that compare to the amount of reports of dogs being attacked by unrestrained toddlers?


 
That is facetious, as my point (again) is that some parents can be completely clueless and quite happily let their children poke and prod at animals without any regard for the fact that they are indeed animals. I'd be interested to find out how many of these attacks are provoked by a finger in any eye or a tug at a tail!


----------



## liaconn (23 Feb 2010)

Jim Davis said:


> Whinge whinge whinge. Sounds like parents of little Naoise and Fionn are worried that the dog might bite their little angel. Meanwhile they have their kids screaming at the table beside you and the parents don't say a word because "I won't raise my children that way" or "don't tell me how to raise my child"
> 
> Build a bridge


 
What on earth is your point? Because some kids are badly behaved in restaurants then its okay for dogs to jump at kids in public parks and scare them and for parents to be worried about this?

What a stupid post!


----------



## MelF (23 Feb 2010)

liaconn said:


> I agree with Truthseeker. It's very easy to say to a child 'no no don't do that. He doesn't like it' and walk away if necessary. You can't reason with a dog so it is entirely the owner's responsibility to make sure he's not annoying or scaring people. Also, the law is that the dog should be on a leash so any owner who ignores this is automatically in the wrong. In any case, what kind of an idiot would let an excitable dog run around a pond jumping at small kids?


 
Completely agree that this scenario is unacceptable and even if the dog was harmless the owner should have apologised for the upset. I'm merely pointing out that not all dogs are out to attack children - in my experience sometimes the opposite is the case!


----------



## truthseeker (23 Feb 2010)

MelF said:


> That is facetious, as my point (again) is that some parents can be completely clueless and quite happily let their children poke and prod at animals without any regard for the fact that they are indeed animals. I'd be interested to find out how many of these attacks are provoked by a finger in any eye or a tug at a tail!


 
I do agree that youve got irresponsible parents in this scenario - BUT (and its a big but!!), a dog owner is still responsible for their dog and that includes dealing with unpredictable situations like children wanting to poke the dog or pull their tail.

That doesnt excuse irresponsibility of parents with excitable children, but the bigger responsibility surely lies with the person in control of an animal.


----------



## Latrade (23 Feb 2010)

MelF said:


> That is facetious, as my point (again) is that some parents can be completely clueless and quite happily let their children poke and prod at animals without any regard for the fact that they are indeed animals. I'd be interested to find out how many of these attacks are provoked by a finger in any eye or a tug at a tail!


 
To be facetious again then: does it justify a child being mauled or killed by an unrestrained dog because a curious child pulled it's tail?


----------



## MelF (23 Feb 2010)

Of course not, but I completely disagree with the suggestion that all dogs (most of whom are calm and domesticated and not rabid crazy animals) spontaneously attack children for no reason.


----------



## truthseeker (23 Feb 2010)

MelF said:


> Of course not, but I completely disagree with the suggestion that all dogs (most of whom are calm and domesticated and not rabid crazy animals) spontaneously attack children for no reason.


 

They dont. But the point is, there has NEVER been a reported incident of an unrestrained child attacking, mauling or killing a dog, dog owner or child. But there have been reports of unrestrained dogs doing all of the above.

In short - dogs have the capacity to be dangerous animals, children dont.


----------



## VOR (23 Feb 2010)

Latrade said:


> does it justify a child being mauled or killed by an unrestrained dog because a curious child pulled it's tail?


 
+1. Or indeed a child suffering a broken leg after colliding with a running dog.


----------



## liaconn (23 Feb 2010)

Also, a lot of elderly people like to walk in the park and many of them aren't too steady on their feet. I know if a dog bounded up at my father or tripped him up, it could have serious consequences. The bottom line is, a public park being used by all age groups is not a suitable place for dogs to be running free (or permanently left on fully extended leads as you see all the time in Marlay Park).


----------



## truthseeker (23 Feb 2010)

Those extendable leads are the worst invention ever - talk about telling your dog that HE is the pack leader!!! The mind boggles.

The local DSPCA does dog training classes with some (possibly) famous dog trainer - the first thing he tells people is to bin the extendable lead.


----------



## liaconn (23 Feb 2010)

I agree. I hate them. So many people just don't have the cop on to use them properly. I even saw a woman in Marlay let her dog run around a group of kids on roller blades with the lead fully extended.


----------



## Ciaraella (23 Feb 2010)

It's down to the dog owners to be responsible and know how to deal with their own dogs. I have two, one small, wouldn't hurt a fly, very calm around children so she is left off the lead except near roads. The other is very sweet natured but excitable and medium sized and so is kept on the lead around people and other dogs. I rarely walk them in public parks because i hate keeping her on the lead (seems a very miserable way for a dog to walk, just my personal opinion) so i walk them in fields and waste ground near where i live where the only other walkers tend to be similarly thinking people who like to let their dogs run around off the lead. Not rocket science, just experience and responsibilty. I would never leave a dog loose around children when there is water regardless, this is just plain dangerous.


----------



## truthseeker (23 Feb 2010)

Ciaraella said:


> I rarely walk them in public parks because i hate keeping her on the lead (seems a very miserable way for a dog to walk, just my personal opinion)


 
I would disagree with this. Dogs are pack animals and the pack has a leader. A leashed dog is playing 'follow the leader' which is actually a very important bonding process for the dog which fulfills a natural instinct and need. A leashed walk imposes boundaries for the dog, which is a very important educational process for the dog as well.


----------



## Ciaraella (23 Feb 2010)

truthseeker said:


> leashed walk imposes boundaries for the dog, which is a very important educational process for the dog as well.


 
True, but also boring imo. Dogs love to sniff and roam through bushes and trees and i love watching them enjoy it. I have two very nosy terriers and would rather take them somewhere they can roam about. Of course i can only do this because i put in the time training them so they will come back when i call them, and i make the effort to take them somewhere appropriate.


----------



## Teatime (23 Feb 2010)

I remember growing up in a small town during the 70s/80s and there were dogs roaming about everywhere and children were completely used to them. We had a lab and a setter ourselves. I dont remember any dog attacks in our area - if anything the dogs were more afraid of us and maybe dogs were more comfortable with people and less inclined to overexcited playfulness. I remember riding a big St Bernard like a horse in the local park and chasing burst footballs with it and the big lump knocking us to the ground and drooling all over us...fun times...until Mr King brought out Cujo (?)...Things have certainly changed in recent years and more and more people are afraid of dogs which is kinda sad. I live in a rural area and the local dogs are mostly free to roam and I am completely comfortable with that but I realise other people aren't.


----------



## truthseeker (23 Feb 2010)

Teatime said:


> I remember growing up in a small town during the 70s/80s and there were dogs roaming about everywhere and children were completely used to them.


 
I can remember the same, dogs roaming about in a dublin estate. But I also remember a number of attacks, and one particularly vicious dog who for some reason loved me and hated my sibling so on our shared paper route I had to do the vicious dogs house.

I always assumed it was due to the number of attacks and complaints that rules and regulations in this area were tightened up. Certainly I rarely see a loose dog in an estate these days.


----------



## liaconn (23 Feb 2010)

I remember being absolutely terrified walking to my friend's house because a dog used to frequently come shooting out of one of the neighbour's house yapping ferociously and running at me. I still get an automatic feeling of fear on the rare occasions when I now walk past that house, even though it was years and years ago and the dog and owner are now long gone.


----------



## truthseeker (23 Feb 2010)

Yeah, I had houses or roads I wouldnt go down as well. My poor mother, god rest her, had a fear of dogs and ended up with terrible anxiety if she had to go to the shops alone in case a dog went for her, she used to have these long convoluted routes so she wouldnt have to pass a loose dog.

I dont think people realise how much of an impact it has on someone.


----------



## Caveat (23 Feb 2010)

Teatime said:


> I remember growing up in a small town during the 70s/80s and there were dogs roaming about everywhere and children were completely used to them. We had a lab and a setter ourselves. I dont remember any dog attacks in our area - if anything the dogs were more afraid of us and maybe dogs were more comfortable with people and less inclined to overexcited playfulness. I remember riding a big St Bernard like a horse in the local park and chasing burst footballs with it and the big lump knocking us to the ground and drooling all over us...fun times...until Mr King brought out Cujo (?)...Things have certainly changed in recent years and more and more people are afraid of dogs which is kinda sad. I live in a rural area and the local dogs are mostly free to roam and I am completely comfortable with that but I realise other people aren't.


 
On the other hand...

We had a dog during the 80s - he appeared to be absolutely fine in the garden (enclosed) and when visitors called etc but we couldn't ever let him out on the street as he would treat all other dogs/animals/people with aggression - not necessarily always go for them, but it did happen.  As a result he was basically a house dog that was always walked on a leash and never ever taken off it.

Looking back, probably simply poorly trained (although he was certainly obedient in the house).

My point is , you can never tell - we only knew about his 'street' behaviour when it was too late and were shocked to see him 'in action' as it were.  Thankfully no real damage done.


----------



## Leper (23 Feb 2010)

I'm with Caveat here. You cannot trust a dog.  The dog owner is obliged to have total control over the dog in public.  I stress the words total control.  A dog 30 metres distant and off the leash is not total control.  Personally, I think many dog owners should themselves be kept on a leash.


----------



## TreeTiger (23 Feb 2010)

Here are the Dublin City Council bye laws in relation to the control of dogs:
[broken link removed]

From part of it :



A person      in charge of a dog in an area specified in the First Schedule * to these Bye-Laws ... shall keep the dog on a sufficiently strong chain or leash, not exceeding two metres in length if a fixed leash, or ten metres if retractable, while in that area, except during the following times when the dog may be unleashed in such areas   (but excluding   the North Bull Island and any other such area for which a Special Amenity Area Order is made) provided that such dog must still be under the effectual control of the person-in-charge of the dog in accordance with the Control of Dogs Acts, 1986 and 1992:
      January & December:   8.00 a.m. - 11.00 a.m.
        4.00 p.m. -   5.00 p.m.

  February & November:   8.00 a.m. - 11.00 a.m.
        4.30 p.m. -   5.30 p.m.


* The First Schedule includes
    Any - (a)  park, ... which is under the control of the Corporation.


----------



## batty (23 Feb 2010)

I think some people think that dogs are furry humans -forget that dogs are pack animals.  

Nobody can guarantee their dog's behaviour if the dog feels threatened/stressed/in danger.


----------



## Complainer (23 Feb 2010)

I've had problems with an unleashed dog running out in front of my bike on my commute. I had fairly sharp words with the owner last time, so hopefully it won't happen again.


----------

