# Small Ltd Company - Accountant Costs?



## TTI (22 Jul 2013)

Hi,

I'm looking for an estimate of typical accountant fees for a small Ltd company that will only have less than two dozen transactions per year. No employees planned for first year.  Any ideas of a ballpark figure?


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## dublin66 (23 Jul 2013)

I would suggest €700 plus vat - this would cover statutory account, abridged accounts and corporation tax/CRO returns.

It would exclude vat and paye which, if the accountant was doing this, would be extra.

I'm sure some people will think that this is too dear and some people too cheap - ball park figure as far as I'm concerned.


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## TTI (23 Jul 2013)

That is around the ballpark I'm also thinking, thanks. Any other perspectives?


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## Joe_90 (23 Jul 2013)

Preparation of annual accounts,
Preparation and submission of CT1,
Preparation of Form 11, for one or two directors.
Preparation and submission of B1 together with abridged accounts to CRO.
Preparation and submission of Form 46G
Misc CSO returns.

€700 + VAT is a very reasonable quote for this work.


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## TTI (23 Jul 2013)

How do calls about questions typically work, i.e. a query about a taxable expense. 

Would that typically be a chargeable call or would that be included in the 700 euro?


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## Palerider (23 Jul 2013)

If you keep it as simple as you have outlined you should pay no more than a couple of hundred plus VAT, I have a Ltd Co in that space, similar transactions and pay that, I keep everything in order, nice and tidy, it limits time input on the part of your Accountant but I do not use him for anything else so no queries etc, see how you get on but open to p.m. me if you want to and I'll pass on his details, I actually never met him he was referred by another Accountant, excellent guy to work with.

You can of course do this yourself as well, does not need to be an Accountant.


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## TTI (23 Jul 2013)

Palerider said:


> If you keep it as simple as you have outlined you should pay no more than a couple of hundred plus VAT, I have a Ltd Co in that space, similar transactions and pay that, I keep everything in order, nice and tidy, it limits time input on the part of your Accountant but I do not use him for anything else so no queries etc, see how you get on but open to p.m. me if you want to and I'll pass on his details, I actually never met him he was referred by another Accountant, excellent guy to work with.
> 
> You can of course do this yourself as well, does not need to be an Accountant.



Hi, thanks for sharing. I have no problem keeping all transactions, etc. myself and giving them in a digital format. Do you know how much you are paying?  Where is your Accountant based?


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## Palerider (23 Jul 2013)

As I indicated I paid a couple of hundred plus VAT, he is in Dublin.


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## TTI (23 Jul 2013)

Palerider said:


> As I indicated I paid a couple of hundred plus VAT, he is in Dublin.



Sorry, I did read what you wrote in the prior post. I guess I was clarifying whether you meant 300-400 vs 700 + VAT


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## DB74 (23 Jul 2013)

Palerider said:


> If you keep it as simple as you have outlined you should pay no more than a couple of hundred plus VAT, I have a Ltd Co in that space, similar transactions and pay that, I keep everything in order, nice and tidy, it limits time input on the part of your Accountant but I do not use him for anything else so no queries etc, see how you get on but open to p.m. me if you want to and I'll pass on his details, *I actually never met him* he was referred by another Accountant, excellent guy to work with.
> 
> You can of course do this yourself as well, does not need to be an Accountant.



You never met your accountant, ever?

How is he supposed to know who you are? He is obliged to verify your identity by retaining a copy of a valid photo ID and proof of address under the Money Laundering Act.


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## Palerider (23 Jul 2013)

Of course he verified my i.d. but yes I never met him in person, I was introduced to him by referral from another Accountant.


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## mandelbrot (23 Jul 2013)

Palerider said:


> Of course he verified my i.d. but yes I never met him in person, I was introduced to him by referral from another Accountant.



Interesting. So are you getting:
a set of full statutory accounts, 
abridged accounts filed to CRO,
a corporation tax return,
a personal income tax return,

ALL for 200+VAT??

If so I'd be very interested to know who this accountant is please!


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## Palerider (23 Jul 2013)

No Corporation tax was payable in year one, I do my personal taxes myself, he completed a simple set of accounts for me with the abridged set sent to me and since forwarded by me to the CRO, he was terrific.

That Ltd Company is a small affair just like the O.P's, it is not worth my while paying any more than a nominal amount annually, I could do the accounts myself but that would take time better spent on other pursuits, it took a number of weeks to get done but I ain't paying top money and could be patient. 

I've had bigger Accountancy bills in the good times with another company I was a Director of and I negotiate very hard, I have never been satisfied paying that bill each year. I admit to not seeing the value in accountants bills running to €1000's for a basic set of accounts to be prepared when at that point I also used a paid book-keeper that ran off everything required up to trial balance. This referral was made by the previous Accountant I used when I said I could not afford their charges for this still new baby company. 

Simple message - small limited company directors who have a vanilla requirement need to have a vanilla solution, a hard neck, negotiate hard and shop around.


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## mandelbrot (24 Jul 2013)

Palerider said:


> No Corporation tax was payable in year one, I do my personal taxes myself, he completed a simple set of accounts for me with the abridged set sent to me and since forwarded by me to the CRO, he was terrific.
> 
> That Ltd Company is a small affair just like the O.P's, it is not worth my while paying any more than a nominal amount annually, I could do the accounts myself but that would take time better spent on other pursuits, it took a number of weeks to get done but I ain't paying top money and could be patient.
> 
> ...



I don't understand the reference to no corporation tax being payable; a return still has to be filed for the accounting period? 

Anyway I digress, the point is you are proposing a solution that isn't most people's cup of tea, and isn't what the OP asked for as far as I can see. Just because you are experienced enough in business and happy to complete your own tax return without recourse to professional advice doesn't mean the OP is!

Even at the no frills level you're talking about, your accountant is either working for peanuts, or cutting corners. If it was me I'd be concerned either way, as both possibilities involve unnecessary risk for you/your company.


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## DB74 (24 Jul 2013)

How do you verify someone's identity if you have never met them!

I have to say I've never met an accountant (or anyone else TBH) who will recommend a competitor to a client because they are cheaper:

Client - "your fees are too expensive, can you reduce them?"
Accountant - "no sorry I can't reduce my fees, but if you go to Mr.Y down the road, he can do the exact same work for less than me"


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## capnhand (24 Jul 2013)

[FONT=&quot]The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot. 

It can't be done. 

If you deal with the lowest bidder, it's well to add something for the risk you run. 

And if you do that, you will have enough money to pay for something better.[/FONT]


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## mandelbrot (24 Jul 2013)

I think Palerider just doesn't rate the job that accountants do, and that's an opinion that he/she is totally entitled to.

However, even starting from that perspective Palerider, you should be able to appreciate that the idea of a false economy applies at least as much to professional services as it does to any other product/service...


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## Palerider (24 Jul 2013)

TTI said:


> Hi,
> 
> I'm looking for an estimate of typical accountant fees for a small Ltd company that will only have less than two dozen transactions per year. No employees planned for first year. Any ideas of a ballpark figure?


 
This is what the O.P asked for, I provided my response which is exactly what he asked about, there is no reference to personal tax returns in the post.

There was no Corporation tax payable, this is different to submission of a  Corporation tax return, a nil return was submitted 

It seems some people are bordering on incredulous about this, why ?, I am satisfied as is my service provider and paid promptly including VAT, all above board, I reckon there was at most two hours straight work in my returns, who here gets €100 an hour ?

I never could get a handle on fees requested from Accountants, too much ambiguity and a lot of waffle, I got a significant deduction each year over eight years because frankly those fees could not be justified, that was a business of which I was a Director for 8 years, the first 4 with one firm and the second four with another when they would not negotiate their fee. The savings were into the €1000's in professional fees, it is step ladder coming down from years one through year eight.

I require the most basic of services done right to keep me compliant. I got that, I think the O.P would do well to seek out referrals to similar cost consious qualified people who can assist him in his start up, there are many qualified and part qualified Accountants out there many of them keen for work, as the services required become more complex then re-visit what is needed and tender for that as well at that point.


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## STEINER (24 Jul 2013)

Any accountant should charge a fee note based on the actual hours worked for the client, based on the charge out rates per hour for whatever the accountancy/audit staff member worked on.  Outlay eg. CRO filing fees, newspaper ads, is also charged.  The firm where I trained as an accountant didn't separately charge clients for postage or stationery.

An accountant's fee note reflects the hours worked using his/her knowledge and expertise based on experience/qualifications.  It always pays to shop around for the best value in any professional services.  Given the thousands of accountants around it is just a fact of business that fees differ from one to the other.


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## Sumatra (24 Jul 2013)

Hi Joe, I sense a slight eye brow rise there. How many hours should be involved in preparing and delivering such accounts?


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## DB74 (24 Jul 2013)

I can tell you here and now that there is no way any human being could possibly, in the space of 2 hours:

1. Prepare a file which would pass an inspection by any of the 3 main accountancy bodies
2. Prepare a CT return (either manual or computerised)
3. Produce a set of financial statements PLUS a set of abridged accounts, all proofread so that they are compliant with all references to Companies Acts etc correct

The smallest of sole traders takes about 4-5 hours from start to finish by the time you have dotted all the "t's" and crossed the "i's" so it is next to nigh on impossible for a limited company to take less than that - non-accountants may not like it or believe it but that is the reality


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## mandelbrot (24 Jul 2013)

DB74 said:


> I can tell you here and now that there is no way any human being could possibly, in the space of 2 hours:
> 
> 1. Prepare a file which would pass an inspection by any of the 3 main accountancy bodies
> 2. Prepare a CT return (either manual or computerised)
> ...


 
+1 to all of that, but just to add...

it's Palerider who asserted that it could be done in 2 hours - I'm pretty sure the accountant is not charging €100 an hour!

But even at a billing rate of €30-€40 per hour which a small sole practitioner working from home may be willing to take on work for, I struggle to see how all of the t's could be crossed or i's dotted, inside of one working day's hours, for all of the work you are _supposed_ to do for a Ltd Co. assignment.


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## Palerider (24 Jul 2013)

Apologies to those responders that seem unsatisfied and continue to question the facts here, you will have to trust me.

The work was done to the standards expected, it is a small company that appears to mirror the O.P's company in terms of tranactions etc. my accounts were submitted to the CRO after I signed off and checked them, the work undertaken meets all of my requirements and keeps me compliant, I could not be more satisfied.

All commentary on my experience detracts from what the O.P asked all of us on the forum, I will leave it to others to comment further, I have nothing more of value to add to the O.P on this particular thread.


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## DB74 (25 Jul 2013)

I suppose the point that I (and others) are trying to make is that cheapest doesn't necessarily mean best. It doesn't necessarily mean that the job is done right or is fully up to the standards required by statute or the standards as laid out by the various accounting bodies.

As an example, if you want to build an extension and 3 builders quote you approx €20K and 1 guy quotes you €5K, in reality who gets the €5K guy to do the work? The answer is pretty much no-one because the €5K guy is more than likely cutting corners and who wants to have problems with their extension down the line when the builder is long gone.

I have seen accounts filed in the CRO with Balance Sheets that don't balance, accounts filed with no notes whatsoever, stuff you wouldn't believe.

I actually did a set of accounts for a company where the previous year's accounts had been filed by an accountant who *made up* a fictitious auditing firm and filed audited accounts under this made-up name. This was discovered when we wrote to them requesting professional clearance and the letter came back as undeliverable. When I looked up the auditing firm on the internet there was no record of them anywhere ever! I even looked up a firm of accountants in the small country town where they were "based" and they had never heard of them at all, even though they were supposed to be on the same street as the legitimate accountants.


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## curlyeng (5 Mar 2014)

{sorry to resurrect an old post} I resonate and support where you are coming from here Palerider. Behind the effective costs you have attained with your accountant, is a capability to keep it simple. So far any accountants I have worked with make things more complicated. I will PM you as I would appreciate your recommendation.


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## curlyeng (5 Mar 2014)

It seems there is no functionality for PMs for new users. I have been a longtime lurker here here but this is the first time I needed to comment. If you see this Palerider I would be delighted if you are open to making contact.


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## GonzoOpera (30 Apr 2014)

Joe_90 said:


> Preparation of annual accounts,
> Preparation and submission of CT1,
> Preparation of Form 11, for one or two directors.
> Preparation and submission of B1 together with abridged accounts to CRO.
> ...



I've been quoted €1,200 + VAT for that


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