# Alcohol Minimum Pricing



## Majka.21 (5 Jan 2022)

Any thoughts on the introduction of the new Alcohol Minimum Pricing that has just come in?

The Vintners Association seem pretty pleased with themselves.


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## Firefly (5 Jan 2022)

Majka.21 said:


> Any thoughts on the introduction of the new Alcohol Minimum Pricing that has just come in?
> 
> The Vintners Association seem pretty pleased with themselves.


Might eventually get round to brewing my own now...


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## odyssey06 (5 Jan 2022)

There was a thread on it in the Depths - as a new poster you may not have access to it.

Parking the pros and cons  - I am very much opposed to it ... to consider its side effects.

Will it lead to supermarkets discounting other products instead?

Day trips to Newry to fill the boot?


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## Steven Barrett (5 Jan 2022)

As a recovering alcoholic said today on twitter, cost made him give up the drink. The cost to his family, friends and his integrity. The cost of a bottle didn't bother him in the slightest. 

The new law is an absolute nonsense and the timing of it couldn't be worse, at a time of high inflation. a tray of beer will now cost €42 when you could get it for €20 before. It will hit lower earners harder but then, most of them aren't going to vote for FG/FF anyway. 

I am for looser drinking laws, not tightening them. Be able to buy a beer in a cafe if you want. Be able to buy alcohol at whatever time you want. We had family up for dinner on Sunday and had to make two trips, one to do the food shopping and another to the off licence when it opened at 12:30. It in no way altered the amount of alcohol drunk that day, it just inconvenienced me.


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## ashambles (5 Jan 2022)

I'm happy enough to wait and see, any example of a scientifically supported non-populist political move is welcome.  This clearly won't win votes, indeed probably will help SFF to win the next election, and won't generate revenue. But maybe it'll save a few lives.

Prices for cans of beer and cider have been clearly problematic - mainly due to an idiotic attempt to avoid alienating the dumb vote when applying general increases to other excise duties. Up to now I'd have suggested wandering into your local Aldi at around 12 to figure out why having cheap bottles of 2L strong cider is a problem. No problem at all for someone to drink themselves to death for a few euro a day. 

Maybe it will drive people to different alcohol, drugs, to thieving, or to Newry (though a reminder to the distance challenged - not all of Ireland is within a short drive to Newry).

But "the" science says MUP may help.

E.G. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1360-0443.2011.03763.X 



> Longitudinal estimates suggest that a 10% increase in the minimum price of an alcoholic beverage reduced its consumption relative to other beverages by 16.1% (P < 0.001). Time–series estimates indicate that a 10% increase in minimum prices reduced consumption of spirits and liqueurs by 6.8% (P = 0.004), wine by 8.9% (P = 0.033), alcoholic sodas and ciders by 13.9% (P = 0.067), beer by 1.5% (P = 0.043) and all alcoholic drinks by 3.4% (P = 0.007).


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## odyssey06 (5 Jan 2022)

@ashambles 

Alcohol consumption dropped in Ireland over the same period British Colombia had MUP. I can't access the full text of the linked study to see how well it accounted for general reductions in alcohol consumption.

There is no evidence MUP lead to a reduction in alcohol related harms in BC since its introduction... 

During the periods studied, in British Columbia, *the number of deaths rose and fell, and hospitalisations rose every year*









						FactCheck: Is minimum unit alcohol pricing "proven" to work?
					

Health Promotion Minister Marcella Corcoran Kennedy made a big claim about the effectiveness of the government’s alcohol policy, this week. We tested it.




					www.thejournal.ie


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## Ceist Beag (5 Jan 2022)

Steven Barrett said:


> The new law is an absolute nonsense and the timing of it couldn't be worse, at a time of high inflation. a tray of beer will now cost €42 when you could get it for €20 before. It will hit lower earners harder but then, most of them aren't going to vote for FG/FF anyway.


All I can say to that Steven is that we have a very unusual sense of what things should cost if you honestly think €42 for 24 cans of beer is expensive. €20 for a slab or beer is just wrong imho. It makes an absolute joke of the Drink Sensibly campaign if you could then go out with 24 cans for just €20. It's the way of the world these days, buy a chicken for less than half the hourly minimum wage, 8 cans of beer for one hours wage, we've completely lost the run of value. Anyways, I digress, simply put I fully agree with the MUP.


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## michaelm (5 Jan 2022)

It gives the policy makers the appearance of doing something, but costs nothing.  I don't expect that it will make much difference to consumption or problem drinkers.  The no purchase of alcohol before 10:30am (12:30pm on a Sunday) is a similar nonsense . . although perhaps it has saved countless lives and I'm just ignorant of the facts.


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## Peanuts20 (5 Jan 2022)

Studies of the impact of MUP in Scotland showed an 8% fall in alcohol sales with the fall greater in houses that were buying the most. That's a good thing in my view.

an interesting study here also








						How minimum alcohol pricing policy affects men and women differently
					

Minimum alcohol pricing targets men’s drinking habits more effectively than women’s, a new study has concluded.




					www.heraldscotland.com


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## 24601 (5 Jan 2022)

It's a disgrace. The reality is that it won't really impact the middle class or rich and will devastate many poor families with problem drinkers/alcoholics. There will also be a significant level of cross border shopping for alcohol, so you can be sure that when the prohibitionists point to a fall in alcohol consumption as a result of MUP that this will be totally overstating the efficacy of the policy.


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## MrEarl (5 Jan 2022)

I think it's a bad move...

* Those on low incomes will most likely sacrafice other things, to pay for booze, rather than reduce the quantity that they purchase.

* There's a serious risk that more expensive alcohol will encourage people to look for alternatives, with illegal drug sales quite likely to benefit. Younger people are of particular concern, as I believe that the can already buy the likes of cocaine easily, and at quite cheap prices.

* It'll probably increase crime, with addicts who can't afford to buy enough alcohol, turning to petty crime (shop lifting, house burglaries, muggings) to help fund their addiction.

* It'll push more custom across the boarder, so cost Ireland revenue and probably jobs.

* Manufacturers, Distributors and Vendors will all benefit from minimum pricing, as will the Government through increased tax on increased prices.  None of the increase goes towards helping those with alcohol problems.


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## arbitron (5 Jan 2022)

If people are going to NI, how much would you have to be drinking to make any significant saving? Is it a bit like driving to the petrol station in the next town to save a few pennies?


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## Protocol (5 Jan 2022)

Ceist Beag said:


> All I can say to that Steven is that we have a very unusual sense of what things should cost if you honestly think €42 for 24 cans of beer is expensive. €20 for a slab or beer is just wrong imho. It makes an absolute joke of the Drink Sensibly campaign if you could then go out with 24 cans for just €20. It's the way of the world these days, buy a chicken for less than half the hourly minimum wage, 8 cans of beer for one hours wage, we've completely lost the run of value. Anyways, I digress, simply put I fully agree with the MUP.



Please note that 50cl cans of beer start at 29 cent in German supermarkets.

If low price is the problem, causing harm to society, then German society should be collapsing under the weight of so much alcohol-fuelled harm. It's not.

Price isn't the problem, and price isn't the answer.


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## Leper (5 Jan 2022)

Within the past hour I've returned from my Dunnes Stores Off Licence. Outside of my presence, it was empty of life. There was even no reason to have the cash till there manned and it wasn't. No slabs of stout or lager were visible (there's no point as few are are going to pay €40+  for something they could buy for €23.00 last week).

Bottom Line (my opinion):- No need to employ fulltime Off Licence staff. The area where slabs were once on view will become just another pyramid for crisps or soft drinks or whatever.

. . . and my neighbour from eastern europe will still bring his white van to France a couple of times per year and load up with cheap wine which he has been doing for years anyway.  I reckon many contributors here will be doing the same shortly.

. . . and nobody has grasped the nettle of Ireland's alcohol problems  and how to resolve them. I'll provide my opinion tomorrow. Perhaps it needs a separate thread? Drink Aware Ireland certainly hasn't come up with the solution.


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## Protocol (5 Jan 2022)

Beer from 29 cent in Germany


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## ArthurMcB (5 Jan 2022)

Would MUP be seen as a positive thing for the drinks companies?


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## odyssey06 (5 Jan 2022)

ArthurMcB said:


> Would MUP be seen as a positive thing for the drinks companies?


Not for whoever was supplying own brand \ yellow pack beer and spirits to supermarkets here.

In the short term, there should be a bump in the profits of the major big brands, who won't have to offer so many discounts, and have seen most of their cheaper (on RRP) competitors disappear. 
Depends on what happens with consumption going forwards though. Given that off licence associations were in favour of it, and no major drinks companies lodged serious objects, they seem to think they'll be alright from MUP.


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## ashambles (5 Jan 2022)

odyssey06 said:


> @ashambles
> 
> Alcohol consumption dropped in Ireland over the same period British Colombia had MUP. I can't access the full text of the linked study to see how well it accounted for general reductions in alcohol consumption.
> 
> ...



Not sure how much weight I'd give to a journal.ie factcheck, but I'd be inclined to be dubious.

One bit of fact checking stood out as I couldn't see how the error mentioned would get past even a cursory peer review - so I fact checked their fact check.
From the journal.ie
"You might assume, then, as the authors do, that if a 1% change in prices was negatively associated with a 3.172% change in wholly alcohol-related deaths, then a 10% rise in prices is associated with (or would lead to) a 31.72% fall in wholly alcohol-related deaths."

The journal either didn't understand or misrepresented what they're reading because when I checked the source document it said that a 10% rise would lead to 31.72% fall 95% CI +/- 25.73% p <0.05. Possibly hyping on the of part of the report writers to try to mention that useless figure, but ignoring the CI in the "fact" check was worse.  The journal used that to imply the report writers were making basic maths errors. But in reality the journal were making basic reading errors.



			http://www.beveumenys.cat/_Adm/upload/docs/BeveuMenysDoc622.pdf


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## lukegriffen (5 Jan 2022)

when they removed alcohol from supermarket loyalty points & vouchers i reduced the amount i bought, and this will probably reduce it further (i didn't drink much to begin with).  but it will be interesting to see if there's a bigger selection of wine at 12%, which would suit me. Most wines seem to be 13 or 14%.  the hospital stats would be most interesting, to see if there's any reduction in a&e admissions due to alcohol


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## MrEarl (5 Jan 2022)

lukegriffen said:


> the hospital stats would be most interesting, to see if there's any reduction in a&e admissions due to alcohol


And an increase in admissions due to other types of substance abuse.


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## odyssey06 (5 Jan 2022)

lukegriffen said:


> when they removed alcohol from supermarket loyalty points & vouchers i reduced the amount i bought, and this will probably reduce it further (i didn't drink much to begin with).  but it will be interesting to see if there's a bigger selection of wine at 12%, which would suit me. Most wines seem to be 13 or 14%.  the hospital stats would be most interesting, to see if there's any reduction in a&e admissions due to alcohol


I'm curious as to whether there would be more of a push to discount 'premium' lower alcohol wines due to MUP. 
When I started drinking red wine 12.5% was standard, lately due to climate change it has creeped up to 13%+

I suppose there's more scope with white wines, red wines at that % are thin on the ground and sometimes taste that way too 

Tesco have this Italian red for €7 which is 11.5%. I found it too light tbh, maybe one for lunch or chilled in summer.





						Ca De Lago Cabernet Sauvignon - Tesco Groceries
					

Cabernet Sauvignon - Red Italian Wine




					www.tesco.ie
				




Similar story with their Isla Negra range reduced to €7.50 which are 12%





						Isla Negra Cabernet Sauvignon 75Cl - Tesco Groceries
					

Cabernet Sauvignon




					www.tesco.ie
				




More promising, from Eurospar is the Angelica Chianti which iirc was 12% and very nice, I think that is €9.99.


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## MrEarl (5 Jan 2022)

I know I'm digressing a bit here, sorry, but if you are open to trying a non alcoholic white wine, give this one a try :
Leitz Eins Zwei Zero (Riesling)​There's also a sparkling version, which is also quite good

(We probably need a seperate thread for non alcoholic wines, and maybe one also for beers, and spirits)


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## joe sod (5 Jan 2022)

arbitron said:


> If people are going to NI, how much would you have to be drinking to make any significant saving? Is it a bit like driving to the petrol station in the next town to save a few pennies?


maybe it doesn't make sense when you add up all the costs just for the alcohol, but it will be the tipping point to actually travel north for other things. You might use getting alcohol as the excuse but combine it with a night out in Belfast where you can go and see live music and stay out until 1am in the pubs if you like. 

As for Scotland bringing in MUP in 2018, they set it at 50p a unit equivalent to 60c in euros here but we set it at 1 euro a unit that is just way too high, Why have they set it at such a high level almost twice the level of Scotland? that is just lunacy. It won't affect the champagne parties in Iveagh house, no cheap beer or even Prosecco at that only the finest Moet champagne and all at our expense


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## Gordon Gekko (5 Jan 2022)

MrEarl said:


> if you are open to trying a non alcoholic white wine


Sorry Mr Earl, I don’t understand…what’s a non alcoholic white wine?


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## Interest% (5 Jan 2022)

Is Alcohol a drug? Just curious to know. Before when i used to smoke, one time i was in a kinda swanky bar, I had a snotty nose person who was drinking wine comment at me when i came in from the smoking area for having disgusting drug addiction.


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## mathepac (6 Jan 2022)

Interest% said:


> Is Alcohol a drug?


Yes alcohol is a drug, an intoxicant, a central nervous system depressant, like spamspamspam and heroin.


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## Baby boomer (6 Jan 2022)

As has been pointed out many times before, the Mediterranean countries with low alcohol prices don't seem to have a problem with excessive drinking.  Apart from the tourists who go there from high-alcohol-priced countries like Ireland and UK!

Our alcohol culture is a far more complex issue than a simple price/consumption/abuse relationship.  The same idiot politicians that championed this measure will be first in the queue when it comes to the obligatory photo-op with visiting heads of state being brought for their pint in an "authentic" Irish pub.  Go figure.


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## Steven Barrett (6 Jan 2022)

Ceist Beag said:


> All I can say to that Steven is that we have a very unusual sense of what things should cost if you honestly think €42 for 24 cans of beer is expensive. €20 for a slab or beer is just wrong imho. It makes an absolute joke of the Drink Sensibly campaign if you could then go out with 24 cans for just €20. It's the way of the world these days, buy a chicken for less than half the hourly minimum wage, 8 cans of beer for one hours wage, we've completely lost the run of value. Anyways, I digress, simply put I fully agree with the MUP.


When something used to be €20 and is now €42, they have just doubled the price. That makes it expensive. Don't know what minimum wage has got to do with it either. When I get an Indian takeaway for my family, that is a half days work for someone on the minimum wage. Do I think about it like that? No.



Baby boomer said:


> Our alcohol culture is a far more complex issue than a simple price/consumption/abuse relationship.  The same idiot politicians that championed this measure will be first in the queue when it comes to the obligatory photo-op with visiting heads of state being brought for their pint in an "authentic" Irish pub.  Go figure.


We have to move away from the pub culture. Irish drinking culture is around spending hours in a dark room drinking. We have to move away from that. 

There was a young guy in my office from South Africa who had little interest in drinking or going to the pub. He said that there isn't many places to meet people in Ireland outside the pub. There are a few activity places but not much. That is what Irish culture is built on and we will only move away from it if we open it up. 


*Btw, the MUP has absolutely no impact on me. I'm a hipster craft beer drinker and you won't get anything for near €1...or €2 for that matter.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (6 Jan 2022)

If you want to tackle excessive drinking then excessive drinking, not moderate drinking.

Here's an idea. Everyone gets an allowance of 10 units a week or whatever that they can buy at the retail price. After you've used up your allowance you pay a much higher price. (And all of the difference to the Exchequer, not into the retailer's margins like with MUP).

This way sensible drinkers get to drink sensibly at current cost, and excessive drinkers have to pay heavily for the social harms that they cause.

It's not impossible to operationalise, sale points of alcohol are already pretty well regulated.


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## Leper (6 Jan 2022)

For the past four years I've spent a minimum of 5 months per year in the south of Spain. The supermarkets open at 8.00am seven days per week and alcohol can be bought at 8.01am. I've bought cans of Levante, San Miguel, for 0.30c each and paid even less for shop brands. A bottle of wine equivalent to the stuff we paid €6.00 last week can be bought  for 0.50c/€1.00 in Spain.

The only time I saw some Spanish teenagers drunk is when they are leaving night clubs around 3.00am - 6.00am. My Spanish neighbours give wine to their young teenage kids during lunch and dinner. Usually, the teenagers mix their red wine with Coca-Cola and other soft drinks like Lemon, White Lemonade. I've never seen these teenagers drunk. They've learned from their parents how to drink alcohol properly. Alcohol consumption is no big deal to them.

The same Spanish teenagers see drunken lager louts from the UK and Ireland making nuisances of themselves in public. The Spaniards learn from this. The local mayor has banned the drinking of alcohol on public roads and beaches. The local police enforce the laws and hey! - they're being allowed to do what they are paid to do. The Policía Local prosecute transgressors. There's no point in telling the Policía that drunken display by my son is out of character so please don't prosecute. 

Go to Cork's College Road and see drunken displays by educated 3rd Level students almost nightly and sometimes during the day. Newspaper reports indicate that our Gardaí don't want to prosecute such students because of the implications of a court appearance and likely being banned from entry to USA etc. That problem area of Cork now has some landlords prosecuted for the drunken transgressions of their student tenants. The good people who reside fulltime in the College Road area are fed up with drunken students for years. Talk to any student who has had to go to court for being drunk and disorderly and you'll find that he was the only person in the group for prosecution and others had representations made to ensure no prosecution for the chosen few. 

Enter Ireland's Alcohol Aware people and they decide that us decent law-abiding people must pay more for alcohol because of those who abuse the laws. Is this the answer to Irelands Alcohol Problem? They think so - I don't.


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## Peanuts20 (6 Jan 2022)

We have a cultural issue when it comes to drink in this country. Similar to what another poster said about Spanish behaviour, I've sat in restaurants in the south of France and watched teenagers come in, sit down and have a meal and leave with no adults with them. Here, they are more likely to be making a nuisance of themselves half cut on the street. So MUP, whilst not a solution in itself, is, in my view, one step in the right direction. As has happened in other countries, it will lead to a reduction in alcohol consumption and may migrate consumption away from home drinking and back towards pubs. So it's good news for the vintners, bad news for the offies

Some people have mentioned more cross border shopping, yes, that will happen but for a lot of people (most people to be honest), we live too far from the border to make it worth our while. And yes, it may lead to a rise in other substance abuse as well but all of those things are not reasons to try this. What is disappointing about it is that it is being done in isolation. If it was coupled with increased investment in support for those with alcohol problems, greater policing of anti-social behaviour etc, I'd be more in favour. But its a start in tackling our issues.


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## Cervelo (6 Jan 2022)

Leper said:


> For the past four years I've spent a minimum of 5 months per year in the south of Spain...


Have to agree with you there Lep re the Spanish attitude towards drinking, like you I've yet to see a really drunk Spaniard on my travels
I see then drinking and drinking what seems like quite a lot but they don't drink pints only glasses of beer or bottles 
(though I believe the real reason for that is a pint doesn't keep cool during the summer)
When I got here last year and was catching up with people I was told a story of an English guy who came to stay for six months
By the end of month one he was banned from the three local pubs so he went to the shops instead for his beer
After month two the local Mayor summoned his landlord to the town hall for a discussion
And by the end of month three he was gone!!

I personally think putting the price of drink up is not the answer, the answer is changing our attitude to drink and our tolerance of the people who abuse it. The Spanish drink and probably drink as much as we do if not more but you just don't really see it out on the streets like in Ireland


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## Steven Barrett (6 Jan 2022)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> If you want to tackle excessive drinking then excessive drinking, not moderate drinking.
> 
> Here's an idea. Everyone gets an allowance of 10 units a week or whatever that they can buy at the retail price. After you've used up your allowance you pay a much higher price. (And all of the difference to the Exchequer, not into the retailer's margins like with MUP).
> 
> ...


Will never work and would be impossible and very costly to monitor. 

And I already think we live in a nanny state before letting the state know about my alcohol consumption. It's only Google, Apple and Dunnes Stores that are allowed to know that.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (6 Jan 2022)

Steven Barrett said:


> Will never work and would be impossible and very costly to monitor.


Not really it could be anonymised a bit like with the Covid cerficiates. You show your QR and ID and there's a pass/fail. You could have IT safegauards in place so that it is anonymised and deleted weekly, etc. There's only a few thousand (already-licenced) points of sale for alcohol. If you don't anyone to know your consumption you just pay the higher price.


I agree a huge political challenge but it's technically feasible!


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## Steven Barrett (6 Jan 2022)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> Not really it could be anonymised a bit like with the Covid cerficiates. You show your QR and ID and there's a pass/fail. You could have IT safegauards in place so that it is anonymised and deleted weekly, etc. There's only a few thousand (already-licenced) points of sale for alcohol. If you don't anyone to know your consumption you just pay the higher price.
> 
> 
> I agree a huge political challenge but it's technically feasible!


How much would it take to create the IT programme. 

And you know it's never gonna happen


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## Baby boomer (6 Jan 2022)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> Not really it could be anonymised a bit like with the Covid cerficiates. You show your QR and ID and there's a pass/fail. You could have IT safegauards in place so that it is anonymised and deleted weekly, etc. There's only a few thousand (already-licenced) points of sale for alcohol. If you don't anyone to know your consumption you just pay the higher price.
> 
> 
> I agree a huge political challenge but it's technically feasible!


But think of the potential for, ahem, creative redistribution of the quotas for teetotalers.


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## losttheplot (6 Jan 2022)

I wonder will it be the next generation where we'll see the affect of minimum pricing. Whether it will be a positive or negative one, I don't know. Maybe cans of lager will be an option along side other recreational substances available from dealers


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## Leo (6 Jan 2022)

Steven Barrett said:


> How much would it take to create the IT programme.
> 
> And you know it's never gonna happen


Agreed, it would require hundreds of millions and be a security and privacy nightmare. It might be possible somewhere like Sweden with a very limited alcohol retail environment, but not where we have north of 12,000 outlets.


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## Leo (6 Jan 2022)

losttheplot said:


> Maybe cans of lager will be an option along side other recreational substances available from dealers


Does anyone really think that lots of people who can can't afford €40 for a slab of cans are going to instead splash out €100 for a score (1.75g) of cocaine or ~€20 for a gram of spamspamspam? Why switch a habit you can no longer afford for one that costs more? Note Ireland is one of the most expensive countries in Europe for illicit drugs. 

Has minimum pricing in other jurisdictions led to any significant uptick in the consumption of illegal drugs?


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## losttheplot (6 Jan 2022)

Leo said:


> Does anyone really think that lots of people who can can't afford €40 for a slab of cans are going to instead splash out €100 for a score (1.75g) of cocaine or ~€20 for a gram of spamspamspam? Why switch a habit you can no longer afford for one that costs more? Note Ireland is one of the most expensive countries in Europe for illicit drugs.
> 
> Has minimum pricing in other jurisdictions led to any significant uptick in the consumption of illegal drugs?


I jokingly meant dealers may start supplying cheap alcohol ( homemade stuff).


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## NoRegretsCoyote (6 Jan 2022)

Leo said:


> It might be possible somewhere like Sweden with a very limited alcohol retail environment, but not where we have north of 12,000 outlets.


Yes but MUP is only really binding for off-sales, and there are a little less than 2,000 off licenses in existence.

The technical challenges aren't that high compared to the normal penetration of IT systems across all areas of life.


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## Leo (6 Jan 2022)

losttheplot said:


> I jokingly meant dealers may start supplying cheap alcohol ( homemade stuff).


It wouldn't surprise me, wasn't tainted illicit ethanol suspected as the cause of death of a couple in Cavan last year?


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## losttheplot (6 Jan 2022)

Leo said:


> It wouldn't surprise me, wasn't tainted illicit ethanol suspected as the cause of death of a couple in Cavan last year?


That would be one worry, some chancer selling bottles of paint stripper.
MUP may change the drinking patterns of teenagers who haven't really started yet. They may even buy alcohol free stuff just for the image of drinking, like vaping, but in cans


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## Steven Barrett (6 Jan 2022)

losttheplot said:


> That would be one worry, some chancer selling bottles of paint stripper.
> *MUP may change the drinking patterns of teenagers who haven't really started yet. They may even buy alcohol free stuff just for the image of drinking, like vaping, but in cans*


Unlikely. The ban on below cost selling was only removed in Ireland in 2005. Before that, drink wasn't that cheap and it didn't stop teenagers then from buying drink or robbing it from their parents drink cabinet.


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## peemac (6 Jan 2022)

Duty and vat on the duty of a slab of Guinness = €16
Price of a slab of Guinness pre- xmas €15


It was this type of below cost promotion that meant there was no real option left.

Proposal was supported by all main parties incl sf


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## odyssey06 (6 Jan 2022)

peemac said:


> Duty and vat on the duty of a slab of Guinness = €16
> Price of a slab of Guinness pre- xmas €15
> 
> 
> ...


It was 15 euros to clear stock because MUP was coming in. You can hardly argue MUP was needed for a special offer available for about 5 percent of the entire year.

If the concern was below cost selling this could have been remedied at the stroke of a pen at any point in the last few years.


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## peemac (6 Jan 2022)

odyssey06 said:


> It was 15 euros to clear stock because MUP was coming in. You can hardly argue MUP was needed for a special offer available for about 5 percent of the entire year.
> 
> If the concern was below cost selling this could have been remedied at the stroke of a pen at any point in the last few years.


2 for €30 in Nov & Dec 2020. Consistent sub €20 offers year round.


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## joe sod (6 Jan 2022)

There seems to be alot of opposition to this MUP now, very few people seemed to be aware it was coming in a few days ago. Has the government seriously underestimated the opposition to this . Is this the one Nanny state measure too far that has finally pushed people over the edge . What happens at the end of the year when they try and increase carbon taxes again on fuel prices . They keep telling us that the inflation is just "transitory" yet they are the very ones that are ensuring that inflation stays endemic with all these new restrictions and taxes


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## deanpark (7 Jan 2022)

I think its a great initiative. It makes drink prohibitively expensive for young people and will inexorably  lead to reduction in consumption. Theres no more disgusting and sad sight than a gang of late teens/ 20 somethings coming out the supermarket with a few bottles of vodka and a box of 20 bottles and/ or a slab. Up to now dirt cheap- not so anymore. Its tough but the state needs to force a change in habits much the same as smokers have been hounded for past 30 years and then it banned in pubs etc. Well done for this brave move!!


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## deanpark (7 Jan 2022)

Btw I have young teenagers and am happier that drink will be much more expensive when they start out socialising. 4-5 euro bottles of wine in Lidl  and tge other supermkts. Its just gross and the drinks industry / supermkts should be ashamed of itself for punting this poison at dirt cheap prices. E g. Lidl sponsoring Ladies GAA to put a nice healthy image on itself while selling cheap imitation Smirnoff to teens... its madness.


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## Leper (7 Jan 2022)

deanpark said:


> Btw I have young teenagers and am happier that drink will be much more expensive when they start out socialising. 4-5 euro bottles of wine in Lidl  and tge other supermkts. Its just gross and the drinks industry / supermkts should be ashamed of itself for punting this poison at dirt cheap prices. E g. Lidl sponsoring Ladies GAA to put a nice healthy image on itself while selling cheap imitation Smirnoff to teens... its madness.


Teenagers can now buy wine at €7.20 per bottle (not a great increase in price from €6.00). Those of us who know something about alcohol consumption will inform you the affects for drinking too much wine are worse than from stout/beer. 

And us law abiding, responsible people who used to pay €7.00 for a bottle of wine must now pay €11.00 for the same brand. To me it looks like the innocent are being punished for the guilty.

Earlier on this thread somebody said nobody saw this coming. I did. Some months ago alcohol items were removed from supermarket tokens. That was another detrimental attack on household spending. Once again the innocent bore the brunt.


----------



## NoRegretsCoyote (7 Jan 2022)

peemac said:


> Duty and vat on the duty of a slab of Guinness = €16
> 
> 
> Price of a slab of Guinness pre- xmas €15



I don't think there is below-cost selling here.

Alcohol: 12L
Strength: 4.3%
Excise rate: €22.55 per hectolitre of alcohol
VAT: 23%

12*4.3%*€22.55*1.23=€14.31

Have I missed anything?


----------



## odyssey06 (7 Jan 2022)

deanpark said:


> I think its a great initiative. It makes drink prohibitively expensive for young people and will inexorably  lead to reduction in consumption. Theres no more disgusting and sad sight than a gang of late teens/ 20 somethings coming out the supermarket with a few bottles of vodka and a box of 20 bottles and/ or a slab. Up to now dirt cheap- not so anymore. Its tough but the state needs to force a change in habits much the same as smokers have been hounded for past 30 years and then it banned in pubs etc. Well done for this brave move!!


No more disgusting and sad sight? I think you have a look in the mirror if that's your view of young people.

Do you find it even more disgusting to think that in France and Spain and Germany there are €3 wines and 50c beers?

Consumption has reduced over the previous decades, and alcohol here was already among the most expensive in the EU. If higher prices was the answer we'd already have solved it.

Your claims about LIDL selling 'dirt cheap' 'poison' is complete nonsense, utterly without merit or foundation. You'll have to explain how LIDL's version of Smirnoff is anymore 'poisonous' then the branded product. And the branded product is affected by this also as it can no longer be discounted - which it was. Is that 'poison' too?
And you know the Smirnoff sold in pubs, which you seem unconcerned about. You realise pubs and off licence associations were in favour of this move. Don't they sell 'poison' too?


----------



## deanpark (7 Jan 2022)

odyssey06 said:


> No more disgusting and sad sight? I think you have a look in the mirror if that's your view of young people.
> 
> Do you find it even more disgusting to think that in France and Spain and Germany there are €3 wines and 50c beers?
> 
> ...


I know you've got 3,500 + posts and want to get into a big drawn out debate. They're my views. Not interested in yours particularly. I believe the measure will drive down alcohol consumption. Good for society. Tough on pockets.


----------



## Cervelo (7 Jan 2022)

odyssey06 said:


> If higher prices was the answer we'd already have solved it.


This is it in a nutshell, higher prices just means it's more expensive to purchase and consume 
If I remember correctly putting up the cost of a packet of cigarettes never really had an effect on smokers consumption
The only thing that really had an effect on consumption was the smoking ban and it changed a lot of peoples views on smoking including my own
and I feel that they should have continued the momentum and gone for a nationwide ban a few years later 

Could something similar be done with alcohol or do we just leave thing the way they are??


----------



## odyssey06 (7 Jan 2022)

Cervelo said:


> This is it in a nutshell, higher prices just means it's more expensive to purchase and consume
> If I remember correctly putting up the cost of a packet of cigarettes never really had an effect on smokers consumption
> The only thing that really had an effect on consumption was the smoking ban and it changed a lot of peoples views on smoking including my own
> and I feel that they should have continued the momentum and gone for a nationwide ban a few years later
> ...


Our overall consumption is falling, we don't need measures to reduce it at an overall level, and the correlation between overall consumption and alcohol impacts are weak if at all.
I think the equivalent of the smoking ban for drinking was more robust drink driving laws?
_I'm not sure about an overall smoking ban, I think it would just drive it underground, I know NZ have looked at age limits but they have far more control over their imports - that's a topic for another thread._

Some jurisdictions have banned big rounds in pubs, you can only buy 2-3 drinks at a time. That might slow things down a bit if there's a "binge" concern.
Or, if there's a concern about certain age groups, then 18-21 year old could buy off sales but say no spirits.
Some jurisdictions allow under 18s to drink in pubs and restaurants but only wine or beer i.e. at a younger age than off sales.
If there's a concern about anti social behaviour and alcohol, then how about policing it like our eu neighbours?
All of these would be more targeted than this measure.

An anti-alcohol measure cheerleaded by pubs which lines the pockets of makers and sellers of alcohol?
To me it is anti-competitive  as much if not more than it is anti-alcohol, though it has cheerleaders on that side also. They can't all be right.


----------



## Cervelo (7 Jan 2022)

odyssey06 said:


> Some jurisdictions have banned big rounds in pubs, you can only buy 2-3 drinks at a time. That might slow things down a bit if there's a "binge" concern.
> Or, if there's a concern about certain age groups, then 18-21 year old could buy off sales but say no spirits.
> Some jurisdictions allow under 18s to drink in pubs and restaurants but only wine or beer i.e. at a younger age than off sales.
> If there's a concern about anti social behaviour and alcohol, then how about policing it like our eu neighbours?
> All of these would be more targeted than this measure.


I'd be thinking somewhere along these lines so restriction rather than ban might be the way forward, not a time restriction but a restriction on where alcohol can be purchased and consumed.
I've no problem with alcohol and a person drinking themselves silly, I've done more times to myself than I can remember but I've always had an issue with alcohol been consumed at concerts and sporting events where there are huge crowds and the chances of antisocial behaviour increase


----------



## joe sod (7 Jan 2022)

How have the government managed to get this by the EU anti competition laws. Scotland got slapped down by the EU court back in early 2016 when they tried to introduce back then.
Of course because the UK left the EU they were able to ignore the ruling in 2018.
Have the government zealots simply ignored this ruling?


----------



## odyssey06 (7 Jan 2022)

joe sod said:


> How have the government managed to get this by the EU anti competition laws. Scotland got slapped down by the EU court back in early 2016 when they tried to introduce back then.
> Of course because the UK left the EU they were able to ignore the ruling in 2018.
> Have the government zealots simply ignored this ruling?


The ruling was a bit of a kick to touch... 
They said MUP was anti-competitive in a way that excise was not. 

The European court ruling said: "The Court of Justice considers that the effect of the Scottish legislation is significantly to restrict the market, and this might be avoided by the introduction of a tax measure designed to increase the price of alcohol instead of a measure imposing a minimum price per unit of alcohol... The court states that it is ultimately for the national court to determine whether measures other than that provided for by the Scottish legislation, such as increased taxation on alcoholic drinks, are capable of protecting human life and health as effectively as the current legislation, while being less restrictive of trade in those products within the EU."

The Scottish courts approved it, saying they did not consider that it breaches EU law... but it's not clear to what extent 'measures other' were assessed.









						Supreme Court backs Scottish minimum alcohol pricing
					

Scotland is set to be the first country in the world to establish a minimum price per unit of alcohol.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## dereko1969 (7 Jan 2022)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> I don't think there is below-cost selling here.
> 
> Alcohol: 12L
> Strength: 4.3%
> ...


Cost of production/ingredients?


----------



## NoRegretsCoyote (7 Jan 2022)

dereko1969 said:


> Cost of production/ingredients?


Sure there is some subsidy in the supply chain!

But it's not below the actual tax component from what I can tell.


----------



## dereko1969 (7 Jan 2022)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> Sure there is some subsidy in the supply chain!
> 
> But it's not below the actual tax component from what I can tell.


No but there's a massive difference between below cost and below Tax component!


----------



## noproblem (7 Jan 2022)

Turn on RTE 1 and there's a big "chat" going on about this subject.
 Personally, I think drink isn't dear at all, and would love if they did the same with pricing alcohol as they did with cigarettes. An awful lot of what's wrong in Irish society today has its roots in booze.


----------



## ArthurMcB (7 Jan 2022)

noproblem said:


> An awful lot of what's wrong in Irish society today has its roots in booze.


Such as?


----------



## Bocking14 (7 Jan 2022)

noproblem said:


> Turn on RTE 1 and there's a big "chat" going on about this subject.
> Personally, I think drink isn't dear at all, and would love if they did the same with pricing alcohol as they did with cigarettes. An awful lot of what's wrong in Irish society today has its roots in booze.


Booze is the symptom not the cause, which is embedded immaturity in Irish society . 

The cost of bottle of wine in Spain is €1-€3 yet they don't have the problems with alcohol which Ireland does


----------



## noproblem (7 Jan 2022)

ArthurMcB said:


> Such as?


I really am surprised you have to ask, so below are a few examples. 
Road deaths, domestic violence, depression, anxiety, marriage breakdown, child neglect, elder abuse, money fraud, fighting and social disquiet on estates/towns/streets, public disorder, etc. That's for starters.

I agree too with Bocking 14's post. Irish people and drink do not make for good relationships. Martina Devlin (I think) has a piece in todays Irish Indo. It shows the concern we should all be having with regards to drink and drunken behaviour in Irish society today.


----------



## joe sod (7 Jan 2022)

noproblem said:


> Turn on RTE 1 and there's a big "chat" going on about this subject.
> Personally, I think drink isn't dear at all, and would love if they did the same with pricing alcohol as they did with cigarettes. An awful lot of what's wrong in Irish society today has its roots in booze.


yea I caught the end of it today, that just proves that this issue is not going away and people are angry about it. Everytime people  go to buy some beer or wine they will be reminded of the government introducing this . If the government was thinking they could sneak this in without people noticing well that has failed. Its actually gaining momentum rather losing it. Strangely people did not seem to realise the effect on prices until they saw it with their own eyes on Tuesday. Methinks the government will be forced into reducing the MUP price down from a euro back to 70 or 80c . The silence from government is deafening though they are still hoping that this goes away and people go back to focussing on corona (not the beer but the other corona)


----------



## Bocking14 (7 Jan 2022)

noproblem said:


> Road deaths, domestic violence, depression, anxiety, marriage breakdown, child neglect, elder abuse, money fraud, fighting and social disquiet on estates/towns/streets, public disorder, etc. That's for starters.


Alcohol tends to be used as an excuse by people for these behaviours in an attempt to absolve themselves of personal responsibility and in mitigation pleas in court - "my client was under the influence.." as if someone spiked their drink. 

Same with vices in general, "I have an addiction" as if it's not their fault. I've yet to hear someone saying " I am weak/I couldn't resist the temptation/I was bad/wrong". They try to separate themselves from their own decisions and behaviour, as if they're extrinsic to them.


----------



## mathepac (7 Jan 2022)

Bocking14 said:


> Alcohol tends to be used as an excuse by people for these behaviours in an attempt to absolve themselves of personal responsibility and in mitigation pleas in court - "my client was under the influence.." as if someone spiked their drink.
> 
> Same with vices in general, "I have an addiction" as if it's not their fault. I've yet to hear someone saying " I am weak/I couldn't resist the temptation/I was bad/wrong". They try to separate themselves from their own decisions and behaviour, as if they're extrinsic to them.


Maybe save the commentary on matters psychological to those qualified to comment and the same with recognizing the differences between physical and psychological dependency.


----------



## ArthurMcB (7 Jan 2022)

So to be clear, you are saying two things.

1. The list below are all things that you interpret as currently being wrongs in Irish society.

2. The root cause of all of these things is alcohol.



noproblem said:


> Road deaths, domestic violence, depression, anxiety, marriage breakdown, child neglect, elder abuse, money fraud, fighting and social disquiet on estates/towns/streets, public disorder, etc. That's for starters.



You really think that child neglect is currently a significant issue in Irish society? How? Where? It happens im sure but i dont think its the issue you suggest.

You really think that public disorder is currently a significant issue in Irish society? How? Where? For what cause? More pertinently, you believe it to be rooted in alcohol consumption?

Elder abuse? Really? A significant issue in Irish society at the moment. And rooted in booze? This is too sweeping and isnt really correct. 

You have just listed things that can and do, unfortunately, happen in all societies all the time.

These are not currently, as you say, wrongs in Irish society. And, more importantly, you cannot and should not blame alcohol consumption for all of these things. Sure it may be a factor in some cases but its just lazy to make the statement that you made, below.
"An awful lot of what's wrong in Irish society today has its roots in booze"

I mean how does "money fraud", in all its ugly forms and guises, have its roots in alcohol?

Again, you just listed bad stuff and ascribed it all to booze.


----------



## Bocking14 (7 Jan 2022)

mathepac said:


> Maybe save the commentary on matters psychological to those qualified to comment and the same with recognizing the differences between physical and psychological dependency.


It's an observation not an opinion.

Maybe save yourself the bother of replying to something obvious you don't want to acknowledge.


----------



## noproblem (7 Jan 2022)

ArthurMcB said:


> So to be clear, you are saying two things.
> 
> 1. The list below are all things that you interpret as currently being wrongs in Irish society.
> 
> ...


What's more, I take none of it back, but could add a lot more. You have an opinion, and obviously have never seen what I have. Long may that continue and I sincerely hope it does. However, for others it's different. There's hardly a family in this country that hasn't been affected by booze, seriously affected. That's my lot, i'm not here to derail the original post.


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## ArthurMcB (7 Jan 2022)

noproblem said:


> obviously have never seen what I have


You cant say this. I have no idea what you have seen. Nor you, me.

I dont need or expect you to take back your opinion. I just think its too broad and is patently lazy to ascribe loads of bad things that can happen ...to alcohol. But thats fine, its your opinion. 

Lots of people have seen the ill effects of alcohol and it does cause damage. But alcohol alone doesnt crash the car or pick the fight.


----------



## noproblem (7 Jan 2022)

ArthurMcB said:


> You cant say this. I have no idea what you have seen. Nor you, me.
> 
> I dont need or expect you to take back your opinion. I just think its too broad and is patently lazy to ascribe loads of bad things that can happen ...to alcohol. But thats fine its your opinion.


Ok, good night.


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## Leper (8 Jan 2022)

Some of the posts here wouldn't be astray during Prohibition in the USA. Just to throw in a few words that alcohol never injured or killed anybody, but the abuse of alcohol did. The important words are "abuse of alcohol."

The vast amount of people who drink alcohol were never hurt nor never hurt anybody. These are the innocent people who are being hurt by the recent minimum pricing laws. Once again the majority are being dictated to by the minority. A bottle of cognac that cost €19.99 last week in Aldi was priced at €30.00 yesterday. That kind of price rise is punitive for everyone.

Nobody is denying that alcohol is another drug. We've seen that exposure to alcohol at a young age in other countries reduces alcohol abuse. We've never tried that in Ireland and (in my opinion) we have abuse of alcohol in spades. Perhaps it's about time that parents grasped the nettle and shared a bottle of wine occasionally with their teenagers? Alcohol is on a pedestal in Ireland, but who put it there?

As an observation I've noticed some conservative posters on this forum agreeing with me on the minimum pricing laws. From reading their other posts on financial advice etc I note all of them are well educated and deservedly financially sound. There is no sane reason for the price hikes that happened other than pandering to people who have taken to running the lives of good people.


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## Gordon Gekko (8 Jan 2022)

Firstly, we need to shatter this myth that alcohol is a bad thing. Just because some people are lushes, why should everyone else suffer? Do we shut down or regulate steakhouses because some people are gluttons and end up morbidly obese?

I meet my Dad for a few pints once a week, perfectly healthy. Mrs Gekko and I share a bottle of wine on occasion and shoot the breeze, perfectly healthy. I meet my mates for a pint, perfectly healthy. Hell, sometimes we have pints after work and bond a bit, perfectly healthy.

Minimum pricing just makes it harder for people on lower incomes to do those things and makes their lives less enjoyable.

Find another way to deal with the alcos and the lushes. We’re throwing the baby out with the bathwater with this nonsense. And playing into the hands of Sinn Fein/IRA with what’s more electoral suicide. And to top it all off, the money goes to the retailers! You couldn’t make it up.

Other than a few loonies from whatever’s booze’s equivalent of ‘ASH’, who asked for this? Who wanted it?


----------



## RetirementPlan (8 Jan 2022)

Gordon Gekko said:


> Firstly, we need to shatter this myth that alcohol is a bad thing. Just because some people are lushes, why should everyone else suffer? Do we shut down or regulate steakhouses because some people are gluttons and end up morbidly obese?
> 
> I meet my Dad for a few pints once a week, perfectly healthy. Mrs Gekko and I share a bottle of wine on occasion and shoot the breeze, perfectly healthy. I meet my mates for a pint, perfectly healthy. Hell, sometimes we have pints after work and bond a bit, perfectly healthy.
> 
> ...


There is no safe level of alcohol consumption.








						There is no safe level of alcohol, new study confirms
					

The international medical journal The Lancet published a study showing that any level of alcohol consumption, regardless of the amount, leads to loss of healthy life.




					www.euro.who.int


----------



## odyssey06 (8 Jan 2022)

RetirementPlan said:


> There is no safe level of alcohol consumption.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There is no safe level of X.  We could play that game all day. If its so unsafe ban it.
Except it isnt really unsafe either.

What does it actually mean?
The risks associated with low and moderate drinking are insignificant... there is an increase in some cancer risks but the risk is low to begin with.
And it may be beneficial for those with heart disease.

The risk does not warrant public health concern or MUP.

And besides you cant live forever.


----------



## Gordon Gekko (8 Jan 2022)

RetirementPlan said:


> There is no safe level of alcohol consumption.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


With respect, that’s horse manure.


----------



## Bluefin (8 Jan 2022)

If alcohol is so unsafe why where off-licences considered essential retail during the first/second waves of the Covid19 pandemic by our government and NPHET were we had the greatest number of deaths?


----------



## mathepac (8 Jan 2022)

Bluefin said:


> If alcohol is so unsafe why where off-licences considered essential retail during the first/second waves of the Covid19 pandemic by our government and NPHET were we had the greatest number of deaths?


Money, tax & excise income for the government, and the belief that as many retail outlets as possible must remain open in the pandemic.


----------



## mathepac (8 Jan 2022)

RetirementPlan said:


> There is no safe level of alcohol consumption.


Correct, because alcohol is an intoxicant, or a poison, the hint here being the root "toxin".  

There is no way to gauge a safe blood-alcohol level in advance of consumption and even with the same person, differing levels of consumption can have similar effects or outcomes, at different times, evidence that alcohol has both psychological and physiological influences.


----------



## Bocking14 (8 Jan 2022)

Bluefin said:


> If alcohol is so unsafe why where off-licences considered essential retail during the first/second waves of the Covid19 pandemic by our government and NPHET were we had the greatest number of deaths?


Because preventing access to alcohol in Ireland would make Mad Max look like a romantic comedy


----------



## Gordon Gekko (8 Jan 2022)

mathepac said:


> Correct, because alcohol is an intoxicant, or a poison, the hint here being the root "toxin".
> 
> There is no way to gauge a safe blood-alcohol level in advance of consumption and even with the same person, differing levels of consumption can have similar effects or outcomes, at different times, evidence that alcohol has both psychological and physiological influences.


So what’s your view on me meeting my Dad for a few pints and a chat?

Or Mrs Gekko and I sharing a bottle of wine and having a chat?

Or me meeting a few colleagues for a couple of pints on Friday evening?


----------



## mathepac (8 Jan 2022)

Hopefully you, your family and friends can avoid intoxicating yourselves to the degree that you need to impose additional costs on the public health services on the nights in question and longer-term, due to acute and/or chronic substance abuse problems.


----------



## Gordon Gekko (8 Jan 2022)

mathepac said:


> Hopefully you, your family and friends can avoid intoxicating yourselves to the degree that you need to impose additional costs on the public health services on the nights in question and longer-term, due to acute and/or chronic substance abuse problems.


You’re kidding, right?

On the nights I have four pints with my Dad, or the nights Mrs Gekko and I share one bottle of wine, or the Friday nights I have three pints with my colleagues?

April 1st is months away…


----------



## mathepac (8 Jan 2022)

I tend not to joke about people knowingly poisoning themselves, potentially creating extra work for the emergency services, Gardai, ambulance, and fire service.  Given the impossibility of predicting outcomes with measured alcohol consumption for known consumers and the generalized nature of your sarcastic inquiry, the best I could do was wish for the best possible outcomes for your family, colleagues, those you encounter and the emergency services.


----------



## Tickle (8 Jan 2022)

Gordon Gekko said:


> You’re kidding, right?
> 
> On the nights I have four pints with my Dad, or the nights Mrs Gekko and I share one bottle of wine, or the Friday nights I have three pints with my colleagues?
> 
> April 1st is months away…


Ye miserable sh!te, are you not spending more than 7 euro on a bottle of wine for Mrs Gekko?


----------



## Gordon Gekko (9 Jan 2022)

Tickle said:


> Ye miserable sh!te, are you not spending more than 7 euro on a bottle of wine for Mrs Gekko?


Usually €20ish for domestic consumption.

But the point is that there are Mr & Mrs Gekkos all over Ireland who relax and chat over a €7 bottle of wine. 

There is nothing wrong with a few drinks. Or more accurately, there’s as much wrong with gobbling a couple of steaks off the BBQ.


----------



## mathepac (9 Jan 2022)

Gordon Gekko said:


> There is nothing wrong with a few drinks. Or more accurately, there’s as much wrong with gobbling a couple of steaks off the BBQ.


Nonsense.  Alcohol (or beverage alcohol as its known in some jurisdictions) is a poison and you need excise licences to sell it and the sale, purchase or consumption on or off premises is restricted to certain age groups.  These restrictions do not apply to steaks.  It is illegal to sell alcoholic beverages to someone who is already intoxicated by alcohol consumption, this restriction does not apply to steak as steak is not an intoxicant.


----------



## iamaspinner (9 Jan 2022)

From the HSE website:

Alcohol and cancer

Alcohol is a carcinogen. This means it causes cancer.

The less you drink, the lower your risk of developing alcohol-related cancer.


----------



## Gordon Gekko (9 Jan 2022)

iamaspinner said:


> From the HSE website:
> 
> Alcohol and cancer
> 
> ...


So is BBQ’d food.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/food/articles/barbecue_cooking_risks


----------



## Cervelo (9 Jan 2022)

Don't forget about processed food






						Does eating processed and red meat cause cancer?
					

Eating processed and red meat can cause bowel cancer. But, however much you eat, cutting down will reduce your risk.




					www.cancerresearchuk.org
				




And sure while we're at it should we talk about Dupont Teflon and C-8


----------



## iamaspinner (9 Jan 2022)

Gordon Gekko said:


> So is BBQ’d food.
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/food/articles/barbecue_cooking_risks


I know, but many people drink alcohol everyday, whereas they don't have bbq's that often.


----------



## iamaspinner (9 Jan 2022)

Cervelo said:


> Don't forget about processed food
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Don't forget asbestos!


----------



## Cervelo (9 Jan 2022)

iamaspinner said:


> Don't forget asbestos!


Exactly and the list goes on and on and on!!!
Bottom line  "We're all dying. The world's just a hospice with fresh air"


----------



## Gordon Gekko (9 Jan 2022)

Cervelo said:


> The world's just a hospice with fresh air"


I thought that was Sachs Hotel?


----------



## Cervelo (9 Jan 2022)

Gordon Gekko said:


> I thought that was Sachs Hotel?


No, That was more commingle referred to as "Jurassic Park" back in the day


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## ArthurMcB (9 Jan 2022)

iamaspinner said:


> From the HSE website:
> 
> Alcohol and cancer
> 
> ...


Sausages are a carcinogen. Should we ban sausages?


----------



## iamaspinner (9 Jan 2022)

ArthurMcB said:


> Sausages are a carcinogen. Should we ban sausages?


I thought the discussion in this thread was around alcohol...

Btw, I've never seen people behave like c*!#s after eating bbq meat or sausages.


----------



## mathepac (9 Jan 2022)

Gordon Gekko said:


> Or more accurately, there’s as much wrong with gobbling a couple of steaks off the BBQ.


And as predictable, the pointless "whataboutery" contributions and unhelpful contributors start from here, as sure as night follows day.


----------



## ArthurMcB (9 Jan 2022)

iamaspinner said:


> Btw, I've never seen people behave like c*!#s after eating bbq meat or sausages


And if you did would you blame the sausages?


----------



## iamaspinner (9 Jan 2022)

ArthurMcB said:


> And if you did would you blame the sausages?


I'd be worried about what they'd be doing to me.


----------



## joe sod (9 Jan 2022)

iamaspinner said:


> I'd be worried about what they'd be doing to me.


do you mean the sausages or the people that ate the sausages ?


----------



## iamaspinner (9 Jan 2022)

The sausages and the people after eating them!


----------



## RetirementPlan (9 Jan 2022)

Gordon Gekko said:


> You’re kidding, right?
> 
> On the nights I have four pints with my Dad, or the nights Mrs Gekko and I share one bottle of wine, or the Friday nights I have three pints with my colleagues?
> 
> April 1st is months away…


This puts you just into the 'increasing risk' category of drinking (subject to a few assumptions);









						Increasing Risk Feedback Video
					






					www.youtube.com
				




According to the HSE, hazardous drinking can cause the following problems:


accidents or injuries
hangovers
having less energy
feeling low or depressed
increased anxiety
risk-taking
problems with sleeping
having unsafe sex
memory loss due to blackouts
In the longer term, you may also experience problems like:


strained relationships due to arguments or fights
impact on friendships, family, work or studies
impotence (problems getting or keeping an erection)
weight gain
financial problems
high blood pressure
liver disease
digestive problems
heart disease
several Cancers

As with all health issues, not everyone will experience these problems, and certainly not all these problems, but that's the end result.

Disclosure: I'm not too far away from you, probably one less night of drink a week, which puts me in the low risk category, rather than increasing risk.


----------



## Tickle (9 Jan 2022)

iamaspinner said:


> I thought the discussion in this thread was around alcohol...
> 
> Btw, I've never seen people behave like c*!#s after eating bbq meat or sausages.


A&E's around the country full of gluttons who overdid it at 3 am on Sunday morning. Sausage related accident's and violence on the streets and in the home. We should have a MUP of €1.70 for your average size sausage.


The comparison with BBQ steaks and sausages are an utter farce. The accute and chronic effects of binging on BBQ'd meats compared to alcohol abuse on our health system, our relationships and our society (anti-social behaviour, wanton destruction, litter), are not even in the same league. Beyond comparison I would say. It's a really unhelpful argument being put forward by those arguing against MUP.


----------



## odyssey06 (9 Jan 2022)

Tickle said:


> A&E's around the country full of glutens who overdid it at 3 am on Sunday morning. Sausage related accident's and violence on the streets and in the home. We should have a MUP of €1.70 for your average size sausage.
> 
> The comparison with BBQ steaks and sausages are an utter farce. The accute and chronic effects of binging on BBQ'd meats compared to alcohol abuse on our health system, our relationships and our society (anti-social behaviour, wanton destruction, litter), are not even in the same league. Beyond comparison I would say. It's a really unhelpful argument being put forward by those arguing against MUP.


The effects you describe - A&E, accidents and violence on the street - how much of that is pub and nightclub related?
And won't be affected by MUP?
Weren't A&Es quieter with pubs and nightclubs closed?

It's entirely reasonable to compare the health risks of low to moderate consumption of alcohol with other risks such as processed foods, or red meat, especially when one of the arguments put forward for MUP is to reduce overall alcohol consumption. Even though the association of overall alcohol consumption with alcohol related harm is weak to non - existent.


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## Bluefin (9 Jan 2022)

iamaspinner said:


> I thought the discussion in this thread was around alcohol...
> 
> Btw, I've never seen people behave like c*!#s after eating bbq meat or sausages.


This is totally inappropriate language and an awful way to describe people who drink too much.. 

I'm this thread is not clised.


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## iamaspinner (9 Jan 2022)

Bluefin said:


> This is totally inappropriate language and an awful way to describe people who drink too much..
> 
> I'm this thread is not clised.


I never said all who drink too much or too little behave like that!

Of course it is a very complex issue.

Perhaps my comment has been misunderstood.

I posted information from the HSE around alcohol so that it could be taken into account in the context of this thread's discussion, which is entitled "Alcohol Minimum Pricing". But then we went into the comparison rabbit hole.

In my humble opinion, it doesn't help this or any debate to compare pears and apples, e.g. alcohol v sausages, cigarettes v red meat or asbestos v bbq.


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## Powderfinger (9 Jan 2022)

Tickle said:


> A&E's around the country full of glutens


I take it they're not coeliacs?


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## Leyla59 (9 Jan 2022)

I wonder would another government be willing and able to reverse this Nonsense? Which Parties put it into place anyway? Where can I see how my local TD voted? Can somebody explain please.


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## odyssey06 (9 Jan 2022)

Leyla59 said:


> I wonder would another government be willing and able to reverse this Nonsense? Which Parties put it into place anyway? Where can I see how my local TD voted? Can somebody explain please.


FF, FG, SF and Labour all voted for this, and I think the Social Democrats.
The only people I'm aware of speaking out against it is economist Sean Barrett who I think was a senator at the time and voted against it.


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## joe sod (9 Jan 2022)

Leyla59 said:


> I wonder would another government be willing and able to reverse this Nonsense? Which Parties put it into place anyway? Where can I see how my local TD voted? Can somebody explain please.


all the opposition parties are now basically left wing and are all in favour of alcohol control and other nanny state initiatives. Wasn't Roisin Shorthall the first to instigate this a decade ago.
Its interesting though how times have changed, a century ago the control of alcohol was a conservative church led initiative with the pioneer association being a huge movement in Ireland. Also in the US it was the Republicans that introduced prohibition with the Democrats firmly against it, because it was essentially anti libertarian.
Now we have Scotland bringing in MUP but the Tories in England rejecting it, in Northern Ireland I think SF in favour but the DUP against. However surely SF will not be able to resist playing the populist card now if they see how unpopular it is here. Maybe they will jump ship and abandon MUP in the North aswell in order to benefit from it here


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## Tickle (9 Jan 2022)

odyssey06 said:


> The effects you describe - A&E, accidents and violence on the street - how much of that is pub and nightclub related?
> And won't be affected by MUP?


How much is caused by drink bought from off licenses and supermarkets? Far, far, far more than BBQ food. It's a ridiculous comparison.


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## Baby boomer (9 Jan 2022)

Let's agree (solely for the purposes of argument, mind) that alcohol is entirely A Bad Thing and must be Severely Discouraged by government policy.  The question arises as to whether MUP is a particularly good or efficient way to do so.  

I say it isn't because:
- It will have absolutely zero effect on the pub trade because they are already above MUP level.  If proof were needed, note that the publican lobby (normally so vocal against anti alcohol measures) has enthusiastically cheerled MUP.    Bear in mind also that the Irish pub is th main transmission medium of our alcohol culture.

- It will have little effect on the chronic alcoholic who will somehow or other find the money to keep on drinking.  

- It transfers about €100m per annum from consumers to supermarkets.  Nothing will go towards education, treatment or other harm reduction measures.  

- It will lead to increased cross border and duty free purchases.  And possibly an increase in illegal importation.  

- It smacks of targeting "the poor" who, unlike their betters, can't really be trusted with personal responsibility.  Apparently. 

- It is an infantilising measure that further transfers social control from the citizenry to the Government.


It does have one major advantage though - it allows our policians to preen their egos because Something Had To Be Done and they did it.  It is the very epitome of badly thought out public policy and reflects very poorly on our elected representatives and on us the electorate who keep electing them.


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## Leyla59 (9 Jan 2022)

I have some relatives in Germany and somebody mentioned above the cheapest 0.5 cans are about 30 cent. That is correct. I think if a politician there would propose something like MUP he would be laughed at. Here in our Banana Republic it doesn't seem to be a big problem to artificially double the price for a bottle of beer.  And in comparison the price for Alcohol was never really cheap here.


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## Bocking14 (9 Jan 2022)

I haven't see so much confirmation bias laid bare in one place. 

It's easy to see who consumes alcohol and who doesn't in this thread.


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## Bocking14 (9 Jan 2022)

Leyla59 said:


> I have some relatives in Germany and somebody mentioned above the cheapest 0.5 cans are about 30 cent. That is correct. I think if a politician there would propose something like MUP he would be laughed at. Here in our Banana Republic it doesn't seem to be a big problem to artificially double the price for a bottle of beer.  And in comparison the price for Alcohol was never really cheap here.


Germany is a sophisticated, mature society


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## odyssey06 (9 Jan 2022)

Bocking14 said:


> I haven't see so much confirmation bias laid bare in one place.
> 
> It's easy to see who consumes alcohol and who doesn't in this thread.


Really? I don't smoke, I would prefer to live in a universe in which it was never discovered ... it doesn't mean I necessarily agree with all restrictions on smoking OR consider that all anti-smoking measures will pan out in practice...

So an interesting thought experiment is: would MUP have made sense for tobacco? Only a small proportion of the extra price (VAT) going to the government, the rest going to retailers and producers of tobacco products. Purchasers of expensive cigars unaffected, consumers of shag or roll your own (?) tobacco most affected. People who consumed 'on sale' tobacco in 'coffee shops' unaffected.

So why does it make sense for alcohol...


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## Bocking14 (9 Jan 2022)

odyssey06 said:


> Really? I don't smoke, I would prefer to live in a universe in which it was never discovered ... it doesn't mean I necessarily agree with all restrictions on smoking OR consider that all anti-smoking measures will pan out in practice...
> 
> So an interesting thought experiment is: would MUP have made sense for tobacco? Only a small proportion of the extra price (VAT) going to the government, the rest going to retailers and producers of tobacco products. Purchasers of expensive cigars unaffected, consumers of shag or roll your own (?) tobacco most affected. People who consumed 'on sale' tobacco in 'coffee shops' unaffected.
> 
> So why does it make sense for alcohol...


I take a similar approach being able to separate what suits me selfishly and what's for the greater good but the vast majority of people do not.

The politicians who get elected being a case in point - the national poll-topper also being the most corrupt but gets elected on what they can do for "me".


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## odyssey06 (9 Jan 2022)

Bocking14 said:


> I take a similar approach being able to separate what suits me selfishly and what's for the greater good but the vast majority of people do not.
> 
> The politicians who get elected being a case in point - the national poll-topper also being the most corrupt but gets elected on what they can do for "me".


And in this case, at least some are acting out of what they can do for publicans... the LVA et al visited the Dail 20+ times to lobby for MUP.


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## roker (9 Jan 2022)

odyssey06 said:


> There was a thread on it in the Depths - as a new poster you may not have access to it.
> 
> Parking the pros and cons  - I am very much opposed to it ... to consider its side effects.
> 
> ...


Will you not pay customs filling the boot from the North?


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## roker (9 Jan 2022)

deanpark said:


> I think its a great initiative. It makes drink prohibitively expensive for young people and will inexorably  lead to reduction in consumption. Theres no more disgusting and sad sight than a gang of late teens/ 20 somethings coming out the supermarket with a few bottles of vodka and a box of 20 bottles and/ or a slab. Up to now dirt cheap- not so anymore. Its tough but the state needs to force a change in habits much the same as smokers have been hounded for past 30 years and then it banned in pubs etc. Well done for this brave move!!


If they cannot buy it they will brew it


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## roker (9 Jan 2022)

Steven Barrett said:


> When something used to be €20 and is now €42, they have just doubled the price. That makes it expensive. Don't know what minimum wage has got to do with it either. When I get an Indian takeaway for my family, that is a half days work for someone on the minimum wage. Do I think about it like that? No.
> 
> 
> We have to move away from the pub culture. Irish drinking culture is around spending hours in a dark room drinking. We have to move away from that.
> ...


It's to do with closing times, everyone tanks up before the pub closes


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## odyssey06 (9 Jan 2022)

roker said:


> Will you not pay customs filling the boot from the North?


You have a generous allowance, it is treated as EU at present, although you'd probably exceed it if you tried to fill the boot with spirits.

_If your purchases are within the limits set out below, they will usually be regarded as being for your personal use. If you exceed these quantities, you may have to demonstrate that the goods are for your personal use._


Spirits (for example whiskey, vodka and gin)
10 litresIntermediate products that contain 22% alcohol or less (for example        sherry or port)
20 litresWine (of which only 60 litres can be sparkling )
90 litresBeer110 litres


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## noproblem (9 Jan 2022)

roker said:


> It's to do with closing times, everyone tanks up before the pub closes


Why?


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## Baby boomer (9 Jan 2022)

Bocking14 said:


> Germany is a sophisticated, mature society


Indeed.  Perhaps that's because they treat people like adults who are expected to take responsibility, rather than schoolkids who need to be nannied.


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## Tickle (9 Jan 2022)

odyssey06 said:


> So why does it make sense for alcohol.


Just spitballing, but perhaps it is more price elastic than tobacco?


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## NoRegretsCoyote (10 Jan 2022)

Tickle said:


> Just spitballing, but perhaps it is more price elastic than tobacco?


On average, yes.

But people forget that willingness to pay varies hugely by individual. Those who crave alcohol the most are most likely to pay for it and prioritise it over other expenditure.

Price-based measures only take you so far and in the case of MUP can be really badly targeted.


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