# illegal clamping, change in paid parking requirement, incorrect meters, no notice



## NicolaM (18 Apr 2009)

I would appreciate any opinions.

There is on street parking outside where I live.
This is pay parking for certain hours, which have always been Monday to Friday, 08.00-18.30. The parking meter will not take money outside these hours.

However, the clampers have just been round,  and clamped everyone on the street. It appears like the street  signs have been changed to  pay parking Monday to Sunday, 07.00-0000.
It is not clear when the signs were changed.
The parking meter still says the exact same hours, and only accepts money for the original hours.

Anyone know what the legal position with this is?

1)Is it illegal for the clampers to clamp when the meter for the road has different times to the (new) signs on the road,  and won't  accept money for other times 
The clampers told  my boyfriend that the only thing that counts is the road sign, not the meter.

2)Should  residents of the area been informed of the change of paid parking times, in advance, in writing. This changw is a big deal for people who live in this road.

Thanks in advance

Nicola


----------



## Purple (19 Apr 2009)

*Re: ?illegal clamping, change in paid parking requirement, incorrect meters, no notic*

If you can't put money into the meter then it stands to reason that you shouldn't be clamped.


----------



## jhegarty (19 Apr 2009)

*Re: ?illegal clamping, change in paid parking requirement, incorrect meters, no notic*

Go to the newspapers on this. Everyone loves stories about over zealous clampers.


----------



## NicolaM (19 Apr 2009)

*Re: ?illegal clamping, change in paid parking requirement, incorrect meters, no notic*

Thanks.
Good idea, I have just emailed Joe Duffy, some of the newspapers, DCC and my local councillor.

I can't understand why the residents of the area were not contacted in writing re this. I also can't understand why this can be unilaterally imposed by the council.

There is also no good reason for the hours to have changed, as further down in the same road, it is still Mon-Fri parking (which stops people parking and commuting, which is the supposed purpose of the Mon-Fri pay park zoning).

The cynic in me says that this is purely a revenue gathering exercise. 
It makes life  quite difficult for people who live here, as we can't park our cars outside in the evenings or weekends any more now.

To purchase a permit (if it is allowed) is €400 per annum, as I own an apartment, as opposed to  a house (€40 per annum for a permit). 
However, no one even had a chance to apply for one, as we weren't notified of the change in advance.

The signs have been changed by some sticky white plastic with altered hours which were stuck on the original signs.

Does anyone have any idea of the legalities behind this?

Thanks  in advance

Nicola


----------



## Complainer (19 Apr 2009)

*Re: ?illegal clamping, change in paid parking requirement, incorrect meters, no notic*

I'm no expert, but I don't think the sign carries any legal weight on its own. It is a matter of local authority bye-laws. Get onto your local council on Monday morning, and check what has changed. With the local elections coming up, you may well find that your local councillors will be keen to get involved in something like this. Check out how  the clamping fee appeals system works.

Is this in Dublin? Is there any basis for the 10-times difference in charge for apartments over houses?


----------



## NicolaM (19 Apr 2009)

*Re: ?illegal clamping, change in paid parking requirement, incorrect meters, no notic*

Hi
Yes, it is in Dublin, Dublin 8.
I imagine the higher fee for apartments is to discourage people getting permits.
It's an awful lot of money, on top of paying for a mortgage, and seems to discriminate against apartment owners, who are not actually wealthier than house owners. 
I wonder if the councillor be interested.
By the way, we weren't actually clamped, but a whole rake of our neighbours were. I have emailed DCC to see why we were not informed about the changes, and why they have changed the pay parking to 7 days a week, 07.00-00.00.
I am really annoyed that DCC can do this unilaterally and without consultation, and as above, I think this is just a revenue generator, as opposed to anything that benefits the community

Nicola


----------



## Complainer (19 Apr 2009)

*Re: ?illegal clamping, change in paid parking requirement, incorrect meters, no notic*



NicolaM said:


> I imagine the higher fee for apartments is to discourage people getting permits.
> It's an awful lot of money, on top of paying for a mortgage, and seems to discriminate against apartment owners, who are not actually wealthier than house owners.
> I wonder if the councillor be interested.


Most councillors will be very interested at the chance to be seen to be addressing an issue like this for residents, particularly given the imminent elections. The councillor should follow up on the lack of communication with residents, and the discrimination against apartment owners.


----------



## NicolaM (19 Apr 2009)

*Re: ?illegal clamping, change in paid parking requirement, incorrect meters, no notic*

Thanks for that Complainer. Excellent points that I could use.

I seem to have emailed my local TD by accident , rather than a local counsillor....
I don't think that he would be interested in this local stuff.

May I ask a rather embarrassing question?
Would anyone have a strategy for the best way to chose a councillor to contact..My area seems to be heavily represented by Sinn Fein, who I suspect might be very good in this type of case, but I do not and would not vote Sinn Fein.

Do people usually chose a counsillor from the party they normally vote for, or chose someone because they represent the nearest area towhere they live, in circumstances such as this?

Nicola


----------



## Complainer (19 Apr 2009)

*Re: ?illegal clamping, change in paid parking requirement, incorrect meters, no notic*



NicolaM said:


> May I ask a rather embarrassing question?
> Would anyone have a strategy for the best way to chose a councillor to contact..My area seems to be heavily represented by Sinn Fein, who I suspect might be very good in this type of case, but I do not and would not vote Sinn Fein.
> 
> Do people usually chose a counsillor from the party they normally vote for, or chose someone because they represent the nearest area towhere they live, in circumstances such as this?
> ...


Don't agonise too much about your choice. I'd suggest calling the one from the party you normally support, but just call one. Or even call/email all of them (seperate emails of course) and see what happens.


----------



## woodbine (19 Apr 2009)

*Re: ?illegal clamping, change in paid parking requirement, incorrect meters, no notic*

approach ALL your local councillors. You don't have to vote for them, but you can get them to work on this issue. 

i'd be hopping mad if it were me.


----------



## NicolaM (19 Apr 2009)

*Re: ?illegal clamping, change in paid parking requirement, incorrect meters, no notic*

Thanks all,
Will try the group email thing (sending each one separately) and see what happens....

I'm glad ye think I have a point. It just feels like when DCC impose something that there'll be no coming back from it.
I'll see what response I get

Nicola


----------



## NicolaM (20 Apr 2009)

*Re: ?illegal clamping, change in paid parking requirement, incorrect meters, no notic*

Well..
I guess none of the newspapers or Mr J Duffy are interested in my plight so far 

DCC have forwarded my complaint to the Parking Enforcement division, so I'll see what they say

Nicola


----------



## NicolaM (21 Apr 2009)

*Re: ?illegal clamping, change in paid parking requirement, incorrect meters, no notic*

My boyfriend spoke to DCC today (while trying to organise a €400 parking permit, ouch), and was told that DCC do not notify people in advance of changing parking times/zones.

Could this possibly be correct and lawful? (given the fact that this leads to unexpected clamping, and inability to park without a permit, with no notice to organise one)

There is a deafening silence from the TD and councillors that I contacted.
Great.

Nicola


----------



## Complainer (21 Apr 2009)

*Re: ?illegal clamping, change in paid parking requirement, incorrect meters, no notic*



NicolaM said:


> There is a deafening silence from the TD and councillors that I contacted.
> Great.


Try phoning them. It's a bit harder to ignore.


----------



## NicolaM (23 Apr 2009)

*Re: ?illegal clamping, change in paid parking requirement, incorrect meters, no notic*

One of the counsillors has phoned me back.

DCC apparently held a ballot about changing the parking regulations on my street.

They *ONLY* invited people who live in houses in the street, and who are on the electoral register to attend...ie completely excluded anyone who has bought an apartment.

This means that apartment owners are now forced to pay €400 a year for a permit, whereas the house owners, who were allowed to vote, only pay €40.

No wonder the apartment owners weren't invited, as we all would have voted against this plan to change the parking.

This is complete discrimination to my mind.

There is also no recourse to get the parking  changed back to what it was previously, according to the parking enforcement officer.

Apparently there will be a ballot in the summer to try and get the parking by laws changed, but this will not help with this situation.

Can anyone suggest anything else I can do?
I think this is just incredible discrimination.

Nicola


----------



## NicolaM (24 Apr 2009)

*Re: ?illegal clamping, change in paid parking requirement, incorrect meters, no notic*

Slight update...
According to Citizens Information, onstreet parking costs approx €25 for a year (_varies with location_..) http://www.citizensinformation.ie/c...nd-parking/parking_fines_and_vehicle_clamping
This includes Cork city..I checked last night.
I really do not believe that there is a nearly *20 fold *difference in cost of living between Cork City and Dublin city, so I cannot see how DCC can justify this.

I have had a further response from another councillor, who has said that blocks of apartments are excluded from on-street parking.


I have also got the name of a parking enforcement officer, and emailed him personally to see what he says.

I really cannot believe that apartment owners are legally excluded from consultation processes, purely by reason of owning an apartment as opposed to a house. I suppose I do have the benefits of having paid €20,000 already to buy a parking space, and I also have the pleasure of paying nearly €3,000 a year in management company fees (for a one bed apartment).
There are a lot of benefits associated with owning an apartment, it appears.

Fair dues for the various councillors following up on this for me though.

Nicola


----------



## Complainer (24 Apr 2009)

*Re: ?illegal clamping, change in paid parking requirement, incorrect meters, no notic*



NicolaM said:


> I have had a further response from another councillor, who has said that blocks of apartments are excluded from on-street parking.


I think I see where they are coming from. I guess that DCC are taking the view that the apartment development should provide parking for the apartment dwellers, and that the street parking should be reserved for others who don't have the luxury of an on-site parking spot.


----------



## keithrf900 (25 Apr 2009)

Have you been clamped on the street you mention?


----------



## Purple (26 Apr 2009)

*Re: ?illegal clamping, change in paid parking requirement, incorrect meters, no notic*



Complainer said:


> I think I see where they are coming from. I guess that DCC are taking the view that the apartment development should provide parking for the apartment dwellers, and that the street parking should be reserved for others who don't have the luxury of an on-site parking spot.


 Yep, they are obliged to provide "adequate" parking within the development. When I lived in an apartment in Dublin 8 there was less than one parking space for each apartment.


----------



## NicolaM (26 Apr 2009)

The 'luxury of off street parking' notion is a funny one. 

My 'luxury' car space cost me _€20,000_ (imagine), and whatever interest that will accrue over the term of my mortgage. There is barely enough room to park in it, as the developer squeezed as many spaces as they could into a relatively small place. My car has already been damaged on several occasions in the car park, as people have had very little space to maneuver their cars. Even opening the car door can be a problem as the spaces are so tight.
I can't see much 'luxury' in this.

The majority of apartments have more than one resident, and some have families. Therefore there is an undersupply of car spaces available on-site, as alluded to by Purple.

It's interesting that apartment owners seem to have less rights, and more disadvantages than house owners.

I have to pay nearly €3,000 per annum in mgt company fees as I mentioned above, and now we have to pay an extra €400 per annum to be able to park on the street outside. That's a lot of money.

This on a background of having to buy a one bedroom apartment, because I couldn't afford anything bigger...like a house. 

I wasn't clamped Keithrf900, but many of my neighbours were.


Nicola


----------



## NicolaM (28 Apr 2009)

This is the (shortened) reply I received from the parking enforcement officer



*Following receipt of a request from a local resident for a review of the operational hours of the xxxx scheme, the Council conducted a ballot of residents/permit holders ........  The majority preference was to amend the operational hours from 08:00-18:30 Monday to Friday to 07:00-24:00 Monday to Sunday.  

As you reside in xxxx, a building consisting of more than four housing units, located in a heavy demand zone, you were not included in the ballot of residents/permit holders in accordance with established Council practice, as you are not entitled to a resident’s parking permit.  
The carrying out of ballots of eligible residents and permit holders is the standard procedure for ascertaining the views of residents with regard to the operation of residents’ parking schemes and is considered to represent the most efficient and straightforward method of liaison in these circumstances.  All houses and all permit holders on this street were notified of the alteration to the scheme by letter dated 22nd January 2009.  

The position with regard to the cost of purchasing residents’ parking permits is that the standard resident’s parking permit fee is set at €40 per annum.  However, in the case of qualifying residents of apartments or converted houses comprising more than four housing units, with off road parking, the annual fee is €400.  This higher fee was introduced to ensure that on-street parking in controlled parking areas, which is extremely limited in supply, is only availed of by qualified apartment dwellers who actually require street parking.  However, in accordance with Bye-Law 22 (5) (e), you are not eligible for a resident’s parking permit, as indicated above.


The City Council, as the road authority, is not obligated by statute to carry out ballots of residents when introducing or amending parking controls on streets in the City.  However, it is the Council’s policy to conduct such surveys in order to ensure local support when such schemes are initiated in residential areas or when the operational hours of existing schemes are altered. *

My local councillor has also emailed me back essentially saying that I can do nothing.

So the answer after all this to-ing and fro-ing and emailing and phoning appears to be: tough.
I bought an apartment, and I have been excluded from important decisions that affect the neighbourhood, as have all my neighbours.
The views of residents are important....if you live in a house.
DCC seem to be of the opinion that we are entitled to a parking permit, as they have just charged us for one. I would be loath to challange the statement above saying that we are not, in case they decide to revoke the permit.
Also that DCC appear to have no onus to inform apartment owners of changes, whereas they contacted all the house owners in writing to inform them of same.

This whole situation is completely unsatisfactory, but there does not appear to be any legal way to challange it.

I feel completely disenfranchised.

Nicola


----------



## Guest128 (28 Apr 2009)

*Re: ?illegal clamping, change in paid parking requirement, incorrect meters, no notic*



Purple said:


> When I lived in an apartment in Dublin 8 there was less than one parking space for each apartment.



How did that work out, surely there was chaos?


----------



## NicolaM (28 Apr 2009)

Ho ho..
After checking in a little more detail, it appears DCC are correct, and we are not actually entitled to a permit. I wonder what is going to happen to the permit application..rejected, no doubt.

The rent for a car space my area is €120+ per month *(€1440+* per annum, minimum...)

AS I type, the road outside has *one* car parked on it (which is not especially untypical, there are usually several spaces available, and always have been, so there is not a rush on spaces there, despite the way the area has been zoned by DCC, as it is right on the border between high and medium demand areas).

Has anyone any suggestions as to where to take this from here..or am I barking up a dead tree?
(The road across the bridge from me, ie across the road, is medium density, and they can get parking permits)


Nicola


----------



## jacobean (28 Apr 2009)

Apartment owners have always been excluded - I imagine it's something that may have to be looked into in the future as more and more people choose (or have to) live in apartments.  I personally feel discriminated against by my home choice.  

I think going back it was assumed a parking space would come with your apartment but we know with more recent apartment blocks parking was sold separately.  Not everyone could afford to purchase and in some cases some weren't even given the option.

Where I live we campaigned via DCC to get some pay & display parking into the area.  Our road should be a relatively quite cul-de-sac but due to free parking 24-7 we've continuous visitors to the area).  The pay and display lasted for probably three months when it got removed - a social housing neighbour complained to our local councillor that they had been housed in an apartment and it wasn't their fault it didn't come with parking - low and behold the meters were removed and we were told it was unlikely to be put back if we went through the process again.

So while I've no solution for your problem my suggestion is to get friendly with your local councillors/tds and ask why you are being treated differently to other owner occupiers in the area - smacks of discrimination to me.


----------



## jhegarty (28 Apr 2009)

Local elections are coming up.


----------



## Guest128 (28 Apr 2009)

NicolaM said:


> The rent for a car space my area is €120+ per month *(€1440+* per annum, minimum...)



That sounds quite expensive....i'm renting an underground space in Chapelizod for exactly half that price. Where approximately is this in D8 (as D8 stretches along Conyngham Road which isnt that far from Chapelizod i'm surprised at the 50% difference)


----------



## mathepac (28 Apr 2009)

jhegarty said:


> Local elections are coming up.


But they don't change council officials, they only meaningful correspondent NicolaM has had...


----------



## NicolaM (28 Apr 2009)

Mathepac,
Do you have any suggestons as to whom I can (reasonably)canvess. (I don't think the counsillors really are interested, TBH)
Any suggestions very gratefully received!

Nicola


----------



## mathepac (29 Apr 2009)

I wish I knew, as I've followed this thread in astonishment and reading the letter reproduced above I had visions of Nicky Campbell on the BBC's Watchdog talking about clampers in England.

I never knew councils had those kinds of powers. Maybe when Joe Duffy gets over his broken leg you might send him a copy as well as repeating the background information.


----------



## Purple (29 Apr 2009)

*Re: ?illegal clamping, change in paid parking requirement, incorrect meters, no notic*



FLANDERS` said:


> How did that work out, surely there was chaos?


People who didn't have spaces didn't have cars. I had a bike.


----------



## NicolaM (29 Apr 2009)

FLANDERS` said:


> That sounds quite expensive....i'm renting an underground space in Chapelizod for exactly half that price. Where approximately is this in D8 (as D8 stretches along Conyngham Road which isnt that far from Chapelizod i'm surprised at the 50% difference)



I'm down by Portobello/Harold's Cross area, it's fairly pricey here 


Also, as per Jacobean, not every apartment owner bouight a car space, as they were so expensive. Also the apartment occupancy exceeds the number of car spaces available, even though there aren't many apartments at all in the building.

Nicola


----------



## NicolaM (15 May 2009)

So..It has come to pass.

DCC have indeed refused us the parking permit as we are in an area of 'high demand'.

Every evening, the road outside is clear of cars. One car last night. None this morning. It's pretty much like this every day, as the only people that would park here in the evenings are people living in the apartments who don't have a car space (ie not large numbers, as it is a very small development)

I have started taking pictures to prove that there is low demand for parking on my road, with a view to sending the pictures to the parking enforcement department.

I just can't think of any way forward now: Any more suggestions greatfully recieved. There has been no further response from any of the counsillors I contacted.

Nicola


----------



## Complainer (16 Jul 2009)

Nicola - It looks like those cute hoors in Cork might have found a way round this, by referring the council to the Ombudsman - see [broken link removed] for more details, and see what you can do.


----------



## TheBlock (17 Jul 2009)

Don't know if this is possible but could you ask a freindly neighbour (House owner) to get a parking permit for you? I know it doesn't reslove the actual problem, but might be better than nothing.


----------



## NicolaM (19 Jul 2009)

Hi Complainer, thanks for flagging that, I appreciate it.
I have given up on this though. I spent hours trying to get on to people, and get something done, but no one else living here did anything. 
In fact, they mostly even ignored the emails I sent them from the various politicians etc, stating what could (or more realistically) couldn't, be done.
As I look from my window this morning, there are NO cars parked outside, same as every other day..Area of high demand, surely not.

Nicola
Ps I sent you a PM


----------

