# Buying Site subject to planning permission from farmer- what questions to ask



## Kitekat (10 Oct 2010)

Hi, 

I am looking at a site subject to planning permission. 

I would have to make a road into it and the farmer has said that he has a right of way through the field below out to the main road.  

What information do I need to get of the farmer i.e. I presume he will have to give me a site map setting out the boundaries and the right of way.  

Also, how do I find out about access to water and services in the area.


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## j26 (10 Oct 2010)

Question one is that right of way.

Is he sure that you will have the benefit of it? Is it registered in the Land Registry? Who'd be responsible for maintaining it, putting down the road etc?


After that, then talk services etc, and also question have there been any other planning applications on the site?  Have they been approved or rejected?  If rejected, for what reasons (you might not get the kind of house you want).



A more general question is - do you really want to buy a landlocked site and depend on someone else for your right of way?  Look at the number of threads here about rights of way being at issue, and have a hard think.  People can get very irrational about their land.


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## ajapale (10 Oct 2010)

Hi KiteKat,

What does your solicitor advise?

aj


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## Kitekat (10 Oct 2010)

AJ,

 I haven't spoken to a Solicitor as I am only considering the site at the minute. If we decided to buy the site of course we would be getting a Solicitor to carry out land registry searches and checking the right of way etc.

J26- thanks for your reply. Yeah we are only considering it at the minute and we will have to decide if the right of way is too risky.


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## ajapale (10 Oct 2010)

I think you should consult a good rural based solr with experience with the kind of transaction you propose before you begin.


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## onq (10 Oct 2010)

Kitekat said:


> Hi,
> 
> I am looking at a site subject to planning permission.
> 
> ...



Kitekat

If you're not an experienced developer and you intend doing this all by yourself you're stepping into a minefield of possible problems.
At the bare minimum you should retain professionals to furnish reports in relation to the basic legal issues and planning feasibility studies.
Many's the tale of foreign visitors being taken for a walk around a field the farmer "owned" and doing a deal only to find they didn't own all the land.
It is crucially important you identify all the issues pertaining to the land and site that will affect your permission, planning, access, services, etc and address them.

For a straightforward job, typically this may involve an architect experienced in such developments and a solicitor.
The solicitors input will be required to investigate confirm the farmer's rights to the title and passage across the field, etc.
The architect is needed to advise on planning and development plan issues in relation to this field and help you come up with a proposed design.
You will also eventually need a site assessor to look at the land and drainage - most often an engineer - but don't get him to design your new dwelling.
Engineers deal with structures, civil works, services, access and drainage - in general they are not trained to competently design buildings of quality like houses.

If planning difficulties are anticipated, you may need a specialist planning consultant to help formulate the arguments which you may later have to put before an Bórd Pleanála in a Plannign Appeal.

Please read the Self-Build FAQ here; -

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=126261

If you decide to appoint an architect please read the What to ask your architect at our first meeting FAQ here; -

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=131450

If you decide not to follow the above advice and wish to pursue matters on your own, you should; -


look at the local development plan [available at the planning counter]
read the relevant plan maps
find your proposed site on them
find out the zoning, any listings, etc.
read the development plan and special objectives in the area
While at the Planning Counter, ; -

Ask to see the area planning maps and 


Look for planning permission precedent in the area near your site.
If there are none, you may be in a bit of difficulty.
If there are applications but only refusals you are in difficulty.
If there are permissions, suss out what difficulties arose during the planning process.
Armed with this knowledge ask to talk to a planning officer.
If they agree to talk to you, put your questions to them.
They may direct you to; -


 the roads engineer in relation to sightlines and access
 the parks section in relation to preservation of hedgerows
 environmental services regarding water supply, surface water disposal and foul drainage
 conservation office in relation to any listed views, prospects of building your development may affect.
 At this point you may wish to bring in a professional or two.

However as you don't own the site, they may not talk to you.

You have two options -(i) retain building and legal professionals to prepare feasibility reports
(ii) enter into a contract to purchase subject to permission and ask to speak to the planner again, showing proofs of your legal interest.​You really have to make sure you're getting what your getting.
While you can go through the planning investigation process to some degree, you need a solicitor to advise on the conveyance.
Get everything in writing and make sure its cl;early written out for you.
Ask for advice in plain English if you do not understand what you're being told.

Feel free to ask more questions here.

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon                      as a defence or support - in and of itself - should       legal        action    be      taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in                      Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports  on     the         matters    at      hand.


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## Kitekat (11 Oct 2010)

Thanks very much for your most detailed reply. It is very helfpul.


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## Neg Covenant (11 Oct 2010)

Do not agree anything in writing until your solicitor has a look at it.   Normally people agree something in principle and pay a booking deposit to an Auctioneer (to hold in trust and not to be given to the seller).   The solicitor can check out the legal parts after that.

In your case you need to know about practical aspcts of construction and planning, therefore an architect or engineers would be more use.   

However, if the farmer does not have an appropriate right of way then there is no point investigating it.   Farmers often make a mistake of thinking that a right of way they have for the benefit of field A can be used for house built in field B.   Another issue can be that your planning might need you to adjust the entrance onto the public road for sight-lines etc.   A right of way may not be sufficient for that.

I would therefore ask for a solicitor to give you a preliminary view on the right of way before engaging an architect/engineers to advise you on the practical aspects.


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## onq (11 Oct 2010)

You're very welcome Kitekat and I'll venture a few more words.
I'm not trying to frighten you off per se, just to make you fear the possible consequences of not knowing enough to avoid the many potential pitfalls.

+1 what Neg Covenant has posted.

"Subject to Contract - Contract Denied" should head all written correspondence until you go forward.

Neg's point about the differing kinds of ROW's is very important and one I hadn't considered in any depth before.
I don't know much about possible kinds but the kind of wording favoured by developers is something along the lines of [and this NEEDS TO BE CHECKED BY A SOLICITOR]; -

_..."a right of way at all times and for all purposes both over under and through the land from point A to point B, for the lessee, his agents, assigns, invitees and successors in perpetuity, including the right to pass and repass with vehicles, all services, potable, foul and surface water, whether piped or through other ducts or means..."_

I'm sure you could add to that, but you get the gist.

My understanding [and I'm happy to stand corrected on this] is that a right of way like the one described above effectively means that you own the land except that you cannot obstruct it or build on it.
The farmer may have nothing like this established, merely a limited right ot pass over the land and when I say "limited" I mean as discussed below.

A farmer may have a ROW across a field, or he may only have access into that field.
He may have this ROW and a similar ROW down a private lane from one field to another for the purposes of carrying out his business as a farmer.
This can include driving cattle, sheep, horses, or whatever down the lane to the field and vice-versa, as well as his occassional use of a vehicle or the vet or the animal undertaker [whoever takes carcasses away] or combine harvestors or tractors associated with his business.

This right of way might be limited to these things soecifically or to the farming use in general or to him only or to him and his assigns within the meaning of his associated business use.
It might not be established in law but only through customary practice and it may be a private ROW for him alone, not the general public and it may not be a general vehicular ROW.
This is why it is important for you to get your solicitor to look at these issues and see what actual right of way has been established by the farmer and whether it is negotiable.

-------------------------------------

In addition the general noise and nuisance could be a huge difficulty for other farmers and they might take out injunctions to stop you building.
Coming to the nuisance is no defence, and this could cause delays through reduced working hours and more costly specialist low-noise equipment.
[I've recently seen an "quiet" Kango, for example"!)

-------------------------------------

On a cautionary note, the site sounds too remote for any kind of settlement policy to cover it, unless there is an existing ruin on the site.
Even those ruined houses only get you so much unless you are a returning emigrant or linked to the area in terms of providing employment or having lived there for a while.

If the farmer was selling me a piece of his own farm, zoned, with precedent in the area for on site services or piped services and established road access - fine.
But a farmer selling me a piece of land and telling me he has a "right of way" to get to it? That cause me concern, because you're not even directly off a public roadway.

 May I respectfully caution you to be very careful on this one, Kitekat.
Even if the ROW is proven, transferable and suitable for your ongoing and initial building needs, there remains the planning process to go through.
This will include proving the land is suitable both to build on, doesn't flood, and can be used for both a septic tank/treatement system, and a soakaway.

It seems there is a long road ahead of you and best of luck with it.
If this is your first one, I'd suggest you keep professionals between you and the deal.
You owe this farmer nothing and its very easy to be sucked in by a good salesman with local knowledge.
He can seem to be the wisest person on the planet - and he may be - but once the deal is done he might talk the money and walk away.
All that marvelllous "help" he was going to get/give you to widen the laneway after selling the ROW and field may disappear if its not part of a contract.

In summary, my advise would be to appoint professionals and thenl -


 Carefully define the deal.
 Make any deal subject to planning.
 Include all measures required by the local authority.
 Get all rights signed into the contract and witnessed before parting with a deposit.
 Do some background checks on the solicitor and building professionals before appointing them.
Do some checks on the farmer/landowner to see what his history in the area is to inform you about him.
  That way at least you're not flying by the seat of your pants, an easy mark seen coming a long way off by the landowner
One useful test will be to tell him that you're appointing so and so to advise you even if its a bluff and see if there's a change in attitude.


ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon                       as a defence or support - in and of itself -  should       legal        action    be      taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in                       Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports   on     the         matters    at      hand.


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## Kitekat (11 Oct 2010)

To Neg Covenant and ONQ.  Thanks for your help. Planning Permission is subject to Section 47 but both myself and my husband are from the area and the local Planning Office have confirmed that we would qualify (we are within 2 D.E.Ds of the site).  There are houses built on either side of this field so I'm hoping that planning won't be a problem.  There is one field then between the proposed site and the main road where the right of way is meant to be through.   The farmer in question owned alot of land in the area which is now developed on. If we do proceed we will definitely be agreeing the sale subject to planning.  I'm just worried that we will spend money on Solicitors fees, Architects fees and the planning process and then come accross and obstacle but I suppose thats the risk you take.


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## onq (12 Oct 2010)

Ehrm, nope.

Those are the measures you take to minimize the risk.
You pay professionals to assess the position and discover the potential risk.

Professionals are not "yes men" - its their job to evaluate a proposal and advise you on it - good or bad.
Its quite clear you're uneasy about this situation and you've had a lot of sound advice here that should help define the causes of unease.

Now you really need to retain some professionals to assess the site, the legals, the planning [beyond what you have already done] etc. before you go much further.

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon                        as a defence or support - in and of itself -   should       legal        action    be      taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in                        Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports    on     the         matters    at      hand.


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## RKQ (13 Oct 2010)

Kitekat said:


> . I'm just worried that we will spend money on Solicitors fees, Architects fees and the planning process and then come accross and obstacle but I suppose thats the risk you take.


Pre-planning meetings with the local Planner are free and should identify all planning problems. If this meeting is positive then talk to a local Arch. Technician, Building Surveyor or Architect & your Solicitor.

Talk to your future neighbours or local people - you might pick up some snippet of information that may help you. They might throw some light on the right of way, their access to their homes, past planning applications, agreements on steralisation of land, etc


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## TheRed (13 Oct 2010)

V awkward arrangement laying a drive through another farmer's field and making an entrance. I think you will have difficulties securing planning permission. 

Your best chances lie with selecting a site opening onto a local road with good sightlines in either direction or up a private and existing boreen where existing houses are already located.


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