# Neighbours building into my garden



## capperdown

sincere apologies if this question has been asked before - i have looked at previous but couldnt find answer to my specific problem.

I live in a semi detatched bungalow.  My neighbour is building an extension and asked my dad (landlord) if he could knock down the wall separating our bungalows at the back and build a new one.  (this was just a boundary wall with nothing either side of it originally).  My dad agreed stating that as long as he kept his extension on his side he did not mind.

Now the extension is up, the wall that has been rebuilt is not a separate boundary wall like before but the wall to his extension and is where the old wall used to be but back roughly 3 inches (round about half the width of the old wall).  Therefore the new wall is actually the side of his extension.  The roof that has been put on overhangs our house with guttering 11 inches.  He assured my dad that there would be no guttering on this wall so dad assumed the roof would be flat and agreed.  No agreements were signed or plans shown to us dad just agreed in good faith that he would keep to his side.

I hope you follow all that.  Do we have any options?  Can we get him to move back?  We do not want 11 inches of his property hanging over us (about 15 foot long) and have asked to see the plans, building is nearly complete at this stage.


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## sydthebeat

get him to build a parapet wall on your side so that there is no overhang at all...

your father was very fair to him, its the least he can do!!!


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## j26

Get onto the Council and tell them that it's being built and is overhanging your property.  I'm guessing it doesn't have planning permission.

They will investigate, and initiate proceedings if necessary, but be warned, it may take a while.


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## capperdown

thanks syd.. parapet wall, i'm not sure what this means.. building another wall to cover the guttering would mean it would start half way up my bedroom window. i wish i could draw a picture !!


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## capperdown

Thanks J26
i believe it has planning permission of some sort as the plans have been passed. I have requested to see them through the council. Do you mean that he may not have permission to build this particular structure? even if he has plans passed is he in breech of these being that the guttering etc is attached to my outside bedroom wall and overhangs right up the garden?


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## woodbine

if it's got planning then you can view the plans by 

a] calling to the council planning office in person

or

b] check to see if the council have an eplan system (online) where you can view all applications.you don't even need a planning number, just the townland and surname should do.


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## venice

I had a similar problem a few years ago. I got verbal agreement and then the neighbour complained. I should have been more clear and understand where he was coming from. Unless its a huge extension or it is taking up most of his garden then he probably does not need planning permission. It is a very gray area, i got a lot of advice from builder friends and could not get a straight answer either way. If its a proper dividing wall then an extension can be build on your side using the same wall saving you 3 or 4 thousand euro. (i.e it should not devalue your property). Anyway as far as I know once its up there is not a lot you can do. If the extension is not finished then you can refuse him permission to enter your garden to plaster/seal the wall making his extension useless. Nasty, but if you are been messed around ?????


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## David_Dublin

Get the council to have a look at it. Forget getting involved in suggesting that they build a parapet or anything else. If you dont resolve this, ie force them to make good, then you will have trouble yourself selling your own home when the time comes and you dont need that hassle. Whether they had planning for their build or not, they dont have the right to build in your property so I would get onto this asap.


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## venice

I had a similar problem a few years ago. I got verbal agreement and then the neighbour complained. I should have been more clear and understand where he was coming from. Unless its a huge extension or it is taking up most of his garden then he probably does not need planning permission. It is a very gray area, i got a lot of advice from builder friends and could not get a straight answer either way. If its a proper dividing wall then an extension can be build on your side using the same wall saving you 3 or 4 thousand euro. (i.e it should not devalue your property). Anyway as far as I know once its up there is not a lot you can do. If the extension is not finished then you can refuse him permission to enter your garden to plaster/seal the wall making his extension useless. Nasty, but if you are been messed around ?????


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## venice

There is no point in getting the council involved if he did not need planning permission in the first place. He does have the right to build a dividing wall if he got verbal permission. That’s where it gets messy, your word against his. It is unbelievable that there is no law or rules as it is a very common problem..


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## tosullivan

fair enough he has the right to build a dividing wall, but not to move it in another 3 inches...he is now moving the boundaries...

as for the overhanging roof, not sure where that stands, but if your neighbour has a tree and a branch grows over your fence, you are entitled to cut that back.  And thats just a branch, never mind a structure.

Seeing as its your dads house, what does he think?  Do you have any financial involvement in the house?

If it was me, I wouldn't be happy about it.  One thing that I hate is people, especially neighbours taking liberties like this


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## j26

capperdown said:


> Thanks J26
> i believe it has planning permission of some sort as the plans have been passed. I have requested to see them through the council. Do you mean that he may not have permission to build this particular structure? even if he has plans passed is he in breech of these being that the guttering etc is attached to my outside bedroom wall and overhangs right up the garden?



AFAIK you need planning permission to build within a metre of a party wall, and it can be hard to get even if you apply  Even if he applied, I'd be very, very surprised if permission was granted to overhang neighbouring property, so there's a more than fair chance he's not building in accordance with the plan submitted.
A friend of my wife works in planning and was called out recently to a house near us.  The person is building a shed using the party walls, and this is a major issue for the Council.

Is the new wall three inches on your side or his side of the old boundary?  It's a bit hard to work out from your post.


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## j26

tosullivan said:


> Seeing as its your dads house, what does he think?  Do you have any financial involvement in the house?



The occupier can object, it doesn't have to be the owner.


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## venice

But if the dividing wall is 6 inches wide then 3 inches will be in both gardens. As for the overhang again you can stop him putting this up which he needs to do to seal the wall but once it’s up it’s up. By overhang I am talking about a cement lentil type thing, not gutters. If you then try to remove it he can sue you for damaging his property. 

You only need permission to build upon a party wall, not near a party wall


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## Towger

venice said:


> There is no point in getting the council involved if he did not need planning permission in the first place. He does have the right to build a dividing wall if he got verbal permission. That’s where it gets messy, your word against his. It is unbelievable that there is no law or rules as it is a very common problem..


 
That is true. But it over hangs his properity, he has every right to get it knocked.


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## venice

Legally nobody has the right to damage another persons property even if it overhangs. If its in place then the courts are the only option which is expensive and could go either way. i am not saying its fair but...


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## j26

venice said:


> You only need permission to build upon a party wall, not near a party wall






			
				Planning and Development Regulations said:
			
		

> The extension of a house, by the construction or erection of an extension (including a conservatory) to the rear of the house or by the conversion for use as part of the house of any garage, store, shed or other similar structure attached to the rear or to the side of the house.
> 1. (a) Where the house has not been extended previously, the floor area of any such extension shall not exceed 40 square metres.
> (b) Subject to paragraph (a), where the house is terraced or semi-detached, the floor area of any extension above ground level shall not exceed 12 square metres.
> (c) Subject to paragraph (a), where the house is detached, the floor area of any extension above ground level shall not exceed 20 square metres.
> 2. (a) Where the house has been extended previously, the floor area of any such extension, taken together with the floor area of any previous extension or extensions constructed or erected after 1 October 1964, including those for which planning permission has been obtained, shall not exceed 40 square metres.
> (b) Subject to paragraph (a), where the house is terraced or semi-detached and has been extended previously, the floor area of any extension above ground level taken together with the floor area of any previous extension or extensions above ground level constructed or erected after 1 October 1964, including those for which planning permission has been obtained, shall not exceed 12 square metres.
> (c) Subject to paragraph (a), where the house is detached and has been extended previously, the floor area of any extension above ground level, taken together with the floor area of any previous extension or extensions above ground level constructed or erected after 1 October 1964, including those for which planning permission has been obtained, shall not exceed 20 square metres.
> *3. Any above ground floor extension shall be a distance of not less than 2 metres from any party boundary.*
> 4. (a) Where the rear wall of the house does not include a gable, the height of the walls of any such extension shall not exceed the height of the rear wall of the house.
> (b) Where the rear wall of the house includes a gable, the height of the walls of any such extension shall not exceed the height of the side walls of the house.
> (c) The height of the highest part of the roof of any such extension shall not exceed, in the case of a flat roofed extension, the height of the eaves or parapet, as may be appropriate, or, in any other case, shall not exceed the height of the highest part of the roof of the dwelling.
> 5. The construction or erection of any such extension to the rear of the house shall not reduce the area of private open space, reserved exclusively for the use of the occupants of the house, to the rear of the house to less than 25 square metres.
> *6. (a) Any window proposed at ground level in any such extension shall not be less than 1 metre from the boundary it faces.*
> (b) Any window proposed above ground level in any such extension shall not be less than 11 metres from the boundary it faces.
> (c) Where the house is detached and the floor area of the extension above ground level exceeds 12 square metres, any window proposed at above ground level shall not be less than 11 metres from the boundary it faces.
> 7. The roof of any extension shall not be used as a balcony or roof garden.



http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2001/en/si/0600.html#partii

It would seem not if there are windows, or multi-storey involved.

To the OP - see if there are any points that might be relevant here.


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## eimsRV

OP,

I'm not too sure on the legal aspect but my aunt is in a similar situation. She rang the council and they said they would send out an inspector to make sure the other party was complying with the planning rules. However she was told it would take 6 to 8 weeks for the inspection. So she went to her local counsellor who arranged for an inspector the next day! He checked the building and put a stop to all work immediately. She was then able to send in her appeal, and the neighbour has applied for retention planning. Still a decision isnt due till the new year.

So if you have a good counsellor in your area get on to them. It cant hurt to get it checked out!

Hope it works out!


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## PaddyBloggit

Local elections next year ..... use the leverage .... get 'em on the case!


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## capperdown

Thank you all for your posts.. really useful.. i am going to try to answer some of the questions you had in order as i read them.

Woodbine - yes he had planning permission to build an extension. I have requested to view thse to see if what he has built is the same as what he submitted. I suppose this is the best starting point. Thank you.

Venice - Yes it is a HUGE extension - doubling the size of his bungalow at the back up my garden's boundary with his. 

H U G E..... | new wall with  11 inch
.EXTENSION| overhang  (dividing wall now 15 ft long roughly up gdn)
_His house_|_My House_

All seals and plasterwork has been done unfortunately. Thanks for suggestion tho - I wouldnt be nasty anyway  
I thought there were rules for boundary/party walls?

David D - Will get council involved once i see plans for breech if applicable i guess?

To Sullivan - Dad is furious and wishes he'd never agreed to boundary wall being knocked down as now instead of small boundary wall we have huge half a bungalow.  Dad is just a pensioner and didnt realise this neighbour would take advantage.  I hate it too!! 

J26 - If it is not in accordance with the plan submitted what could happen? and regarding the 3 inches, the old wall was approx 6 inches across and i have 3 inches left at my side of his extension.  His wall is right on the line.

Venice - he knocked party wall down completely.##Towger - i hope we can get it knocked or at least moved!!  He has a window at the end looks right onto where i sunbath in the summer 

J26 - Thanks for Regs 2001 - very useful!!!

Paddy and eimsrv - good idea about the counsellor - will do that !!


thanks everyone again please let me know anything you think would help given these replies.


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## tosullivan

*Planning and Development Regulations, 2001* 
_The extension of a house, by the construction or erection of an extension (including a conservatory) to the rear of the house or by the conversion for use as part of the house of any garage, store, shed or other similar structure attached to the rear or to the side of the house.
1. (a) Where the house has not been extended previously, the floor area of any such extension shall not exceed 40 square metres.
(b) Subject to paragraph (a), where the house is terraced or semi-detached, the floor area of any extension above ground level shall not exceed 12 square metres.
(c) Subject to paragraph (a), where the house is detached, the floor area of any extension above ground level shall not exceed 20 square metres.
2. (a) Where the house has been extended previously, the floor area of any such extension, taken together with the floor area of any previous extension or extensions constructed or erected after 1 October 1964, including those for which planning permission has been obtained, shall not exceed 40 square metres.
_

_*Sorry for butting in on your thread, but I just wanted to get clarification on one of the points above*_

_*I have an extension on my house that I applied for PP for before and it is roughly 22sq m.  Does this mean if I was to put a "sunroom" to the back of my house that I didn't need PP for, it could only be a max. size of 18 sq m?*_


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## David_Dublin

Good luck - if they are building on your land or their building overhangs your land then plans mean nothing, whether they had planning or needed planning is not relevant, they are not entitled to build on or overhanging.


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## capperdown

what steps do i take?
solicitor?


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## capperdown

thanks for replying by the way, im so stressed out just want help


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## j26

I'd be going to the Council in relation to the planning issue, and getting a solicitor to deal with the encroachment issue.

The solicitor will probably write a letter asking them to make good the damage, and threaten proceedings, while the Council can pursue your neighbour on any planning violations.


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## capperdown

i live in northern ireland - is there height restrictions on an extension? its well over 4 metres tall.  does it not have to be away from the boundry. god i hate this

thanks


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## j26

capperdown said:


> i live in *northern ireland* - is there height restrictions on an extension? its well over 4 metres tall.  does it not have to be away from the boundry. god i hate this
> 
> thanks



Ah, sure that's a whole different legal jurisdiction, so the advice on laws in the Republic is irrelevant, but I'm sure the issues of encroachment would still apply, and the Northern Ireland Planning legislation is probably some way similar on extensions.

UK planning is probably stricter than here, so get on to your local Council asap.


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## 3CC

Just a point to remember in all this. Planning permission is just that - permission from the Planning Authority. The developer still has to meet lots of other requirements e.g. building regulations, fire regs, and (as relevant in this case) property ownership issues.

If this chap has built in your dad's property without your dad's permission, he will need to remove it. On the other hand, if you dad has given permission, then it stays. It seems that in this case, the neighbour was not very clear on his intentions and dad gave permission on that basis.

If I had to be in one of these positions, I would not like to be the guy who has built on someone else's property without definite permission.

I think a solicitor's letter would sort this very quickly. This is not really a planning issue.


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## venice

N Ireland may be a completely different story however if not, like 3CC said if you Dad gave permission even verbal and its already built then I think it stays. Best thing you can do is threaten legal action if he does not make good your garden, get him to properly landscape it etc. Otherwise take your chances and go the legal route but be prepared for the fact that although you may be morally right, you could lose. Search the internet and you will find nothing in black and white so its down to the Judge and I think its unlikely he will order him to knock the extension. please note that i am saying this without seeing the extension so you may well have a strong case...Good luck anyway


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## tosullivan

3CC said:


> Just a point to remember in all this. Planning permission is just that - permission from the Planning Authority. The developer still has to meet lots of other requirements e.g. building regulations, fire regs, and (as relevant in this case) property ownership issues.
> 
> If this chap has built in your dad's property without your dad's permission, he will need to remove it. On the other hand, if you dad has given permission, then it stays. It seems that in this case, the neighbour was not very clear on his intentions and dad gave permission on that basis.
> 
> If I had to be in one of these positions, I would not like to be the guy who has built on someone else's property without definite permission.
> 
> I think a solicitor's letter would sort this very quickly. This is not really a planning issue.


 put it this way, if it were me building I would want the permission in writing.  Verbal means nothing


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## venice

"if it were me building I would want the permission in writing. Verbal means nothing"

So would I but hine sight is great


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## capperdown

hind sight is 20/20  we are really kicking ourselves now and that's hard to deal with.  at the time the building commenced the property didnt actually belong to me or our dad.  it belonged to our uncle who was in a nursing home with alzheimers.  anyway we are going to see the plans this morning. im prepared that i will just have to live with it but would compromise if he would take the guttering down and make the roof go to his side.  he is not a very compromising neighbour though.  We have coucillor in our area involved and he is putting pressure on.. so we are doing everything we can at this point.  solicitor has advised to get a surveyor and sue for tresspass but has advised that this may not change anything either.

A recent case solicitor had like this.  the neighbour overhung to such an extent the woman could not open her bedroom window fully!! they sued and the Judge ordered that the neighbour had to put in a concealed gutter which helped and got £2000 compensation!  although he had to pay the court costs as well which were £10000 but it doesnt change the fact that building is still there.


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## krissovo

capperdown said:


> but it doesnt change the fact that building is still there.



Nothing that an out of control JCB would not cure


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## Wolverine

Would your dad & you not call in to the neighbour and discuss this with him, people are very quick to run to the council / solicitor etc.  You will have to live beside this neighbour after this.
If i am understanding you correctly, it's the overhanging facia / Guttering that is the issue only, then see what the neighbour says before you go gung-ho looking for a fight, causing stress on many levels.

Sorry - Didn't see your last post OP - Ignore all of the above.
Even if he is difficult, might be no harm chancing talking to him first.


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## capperdown

krissovo said:


> Nothing that an out of control JCB would not cure


 
I have been thinking of nothing else!!


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## capperdown

Wolverine, regarding talking to him we have tried.  I wrote him a nice note which he ignored. Then dad rang him thinking he hadnt got the note. He told us it wasnt his problem and hung up.

We are reasonable people and the last thing we want is to have to go to court but he is being very unreasonable.

We saw the plans this morning and he has built 11 inches outside where his plans say he should have built his wall. Now the planning office have referred this to their enforcement team. 

Has anyone any knowledge of what the enforcement team can/may do?

i see they are moving back into their property this evening. Does it make any difference if they are now occupying the property?


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## capperdown

mad... i just was walking up that side of my garden and i actually hit my head on their guttering!!


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## tosullivan

capperdown said:


> mad... i just was walking up that side of my garden and i actually hit my head on their guttering!!


 Now I'd be fuming......I wonder what this joker would say if you parked your car in his drive?


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## tosullivan

capperdown said:


> Wolverine, regarding talking to him we have tried. I wrote him a nice note which he ignored. Then dad rang him thinking he hadnt got the note. He told us it wasnt his problem and hung up.
> 
> We are reasonable people and the last thing we want is to have to go to court but he is being very unreasonable.
> 
> We saw the plans this morning and he has built 11 inches outside where his plans say he should have built his wall. Now the planning office have referred this to their enforcement team.
> 
> Has anyone any knowledge of what the enforcement team can/may do?
> 
> i see they are moving back into their property this evening. Does it make any difference if they are now occupying the property?


I would say that them occupying doesn't make any difference but hopefully the enforcement division give him his just desserts

If they don't then Homebase have a 10% sale on sledge hammers


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## capperdown

i wonder would i be within my legal rights to knock down a wall that was built on my land? or at least chip the rendering off it!!


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## capperdown

thanks tosullivan   i was thinking of going to the papers with a photo of me hitting my head against it on the front cover!! haha (only joking) can you believe this joker is teaching children in our community!!


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## venice

Legally you cannot damage someone else’s property. So obviously knoching the wall would do this. He would sue you and win


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## capperdown

is it his wall when on my property?


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## venice

If its a proper dividing wall then its both your wall so you could use it if you were to extend, however it does not sound like a proper dividing wall, there should be no guttering hanging into you garden, definitely not. It should be one straight wall down the middle with capping on top. It’s obvious what happened here. An elderly man who owned the house wall in long time care and the next door neighbour took advantage.  You need to get professional advice, it sounds like you have a strong case. I would say the building will stay but you may be compensated


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## tosullivan

venice said:


> If its a proper dividing wall then its both your wall so you could use it if you were to extend


 lets just say capperdown's family decide to extend similar to his neighbour.

Now his extension won't be able to use the full width due to his neighbours guttering hanging into their garden.

Capperdowns guttering starts at the neighbours guttering and then their extension inside this...

This is the problem I see and have seen on a house at the back of mine...


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## capperdown

exactly tosullivan. If we wanted to do the same thing we would not be able to. 
I really want to set the ball rolling in taking some sort of action. im impatient i suppose. my father is waiting, he wants to sort stuff out amicably. he sees going to enforcement department as enough for now and he is going to contact the neighbour directly himself again in writing. maybe he's right. all i know is i have to stop thinking about it or i will be going to B&Q for those sledge hammers then i will be in an even worse position!!


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## tosullivan

maybe you should tell the neighbour you have gonbe to the enforcememnt division and that if they continue building it might cost them more to take it down rather than rectifiying it now


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## capperdown

did you see the guy on telly the other night who demolished his neighbours whole house with a digger.... ahhhhthe satisfaction!! lol ha ha

well thank you everyone for your suggestions.  to sullivan yes, that's what we did. we told him we had gone to enforcement.  the building has not passed building control and now he has to do something about it.  Is there time limits given on making corrections to building works?


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## babyspice

am wait a sec now, if ye didnt own this house when all this work was being done, then surely its nothin got to do with ye now, you shouldnt have bought or moved in or whatever the situation was into the house unless you were happy with the man next doors building..


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## baldyman27

Stick a for sale sign on the bit that's in your garden.


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## septemberpri

Interested to know - what was the outcome of this?


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## mylittlepony

Just read this now wonder what the outcome has been Hmm.


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## JoeB

Could the OP plant trees near the offending wall?, with a view to roots damaging the wall, by accident of course.

Or what about an aggressive ivy?, that works its' way into the render etc, and damages the wall that way?

Surely if the wall is on the OPs land he is free to drill holes in it etc?

What about undermining the wall, by digging a trench in the OPs garden, and filling with water? Can the OP dig a trench right to the boundary, even if that extends under the wall?


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## rockofages

The law is the law. Verbal agreements mean nothing. Building beyond the boundary of your property into someone else's simply isn't allowed.

There are two types of house extension: those that need planning, and those that don't.

If it needed planning then he is not in compliance simply the local authority would not have agreed to him building on your side.

If it was an exempted development then certain rules apply, and one is that said development must be within the curtilage of a house. (Aside: There's a minor technicality with the deifnition of the word curtilage in ROI so replace it with the word boundary).

An exempted development simply cannot be built on or beyond the boundary line.

The planning enforcement section of your Local Authority will take care of this. Complaints are free and anonymous.

That's the situation in ROI. The UK is different and the laws are a better worded and defined. Your first stop would still be the Local Authority planning enforcement section I'd imagine.


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## JoeB

Yes, but even if it's decided that the building is in breach of planning, or that planning was not required but that the building is in the wrong place,on someone elses land... it still isn't clear what can be done about it...

Knocking down the building is too severe in many cases, so once it's up it may stay.. but how can alternative compensation be agreed? It's tricky I think...


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## rockofages

Where it's built in someone else's garden there is no real alternative to pulling it down. The LA would have no grounds to grant retention unless part of the garden was sold to the offending party first.


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## JoeB

Yeah.. but it's only one inch or so into his garden (if at all)... and even then that may be hard to be sure of, due to limitations of maps... it's the overhang of the guttering etc which is larger, of about 11 inches or something... so pulling it down is pretty extreme...


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## rockofages

If it crosses the boundary it crosses the boundary and there is no remedial solution. The boundary has to be moved or the structure has to be removed.

No LA is going to sign off on building 1mm on someone else's land.


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## RKQ

rockofages said:


> If it crosses the boundary it crosses the boundary and there is no remedial solution. The boundary has to be moved or the structure has to be removed.
> 
> No LA is going to sign off on building 1mm on someone else's land.


 
100% agree. Its very black & white IMO. If you build over the boundary then you must expect & accept the consequences - have it removed / demolished / cut back to your side.


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## JoeB

Yes, I agree... but I'm playing devils advocate... how is the boundary itself located to within 1mm? I have heard on this site that boundarys can be hard to locate exactly, so if it's only one inch it may be hard to be sure.

I agree that if the boundary is marked by a wall for example, and the wall is agreed to be centered on the boundary, and if the building is clearly 'moved over' in relation to the boundary marker (the wall), then it might be easy to prove.. however if it is only maps or the like, then I think there could be problems... is it not the case that some boundarys are not located, on the ground, to closer than about a few feet or so...


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