# Burst pipe who's responsible - Landlord / Tenant?



## shootingstar (9 Jan 2010)

If the tenant in my house decides not to put her heating on or she goes away for a few days etc (whatever the situation) and supposidly the pipes burst because they have froze, would I be responsible for the repair? 

Just to clarify there is nothing in the contract relating to this?


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## jhegarty (9 Jan 2010)

Unless the lease require that the heating it on , I don't see how you can hold the tenant responsible.


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## pudds (9 Jan 2010)

imho yes...... unless you had advised her to leave the heating on during this cold snap.


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## mathepac (9 Jan 2010)

IMHO, the landlord is responsible for maintaining the infrastructure of the property (tenants would likely assume that stuff like electrical wiring and pipework hidden in the walls is up to scratch). Tenants cannot insure themselves against loss or damage caused to the property by frozen or thawing pipework - this is in the landlord's property insurance.

Was there a note or an instruction / discussion outside the lease with the tenant along the lines of "if you go away for a few days ensure the heating is left on (at your own expense) in order to protect the landlord's property from poorly insulated water pipes?"


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## shootingstar (9 Jan 2010)

I have not had any conversation with them about it at all. It just got me thinking this morning when our own pipes had froze. 

I accept that I would be responsible if something happens and shes at home with heating on maybe, but my Q was if she was away for few days etc or didnt have her heating on (which I know is highly unlikely) would I then be liable? 

Should I have a conversation with her just in case?


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## tvcabinet (9 Jan 2010)

Have almost the same problem our tenants pipes have frozen up, I have supplied them with water (bought a new bin which I put in 40 litres of clean tap water from a neighbours house) both for cleaning and 40 litres of bottled water but don't see what more is possible till things thaw out. I'm not too sure where the mains pipes are or indeed where the offending bit is and wouldn't know how to go about digging the ground up to find them.


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## elcato (11 Jan 2010)

Its neither the landlord nor the tenants fault. It's the government's fault


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## MANTO (11 Jan 2010)

What tenant in their right mind is going to leave the heating on if they go away for two weeks and then foot the bill????


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## Mr Tayto (11 Jan 2010)

> to put her heating on or she goes away for a few days


 
A tenant isn’t obliged to leave any heating on - Why should they, as under current building regs, if followed, the house should be capable of taking care of itself, all pipes exposed to the elements should be adequately protected.


Does this not make sense


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## shootingstar (11 Jan 2010)

thanks for the replies...

I dont even know where the pipes are or if their correctly insulated . I've always lived on my own up until recently & never even thought about burst pipes etc.. i've been lucky to never have had to deal with a catastrophy like such. 

Will make an app with her to visit the house this week to have a look (well Mr SS will have to have a look).  I rarely hear from her, thank god but im half expecting a call.. dont know why... call me paranoid!


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## onq (11 Jan 2010)

Mr Tayto said:


> A tenant isn’t obliged to leave any heating on - Why should they, as under current building regs, if followed, the house should be capable of taking care of itself, all pipes exposed to the elements should be adequately protected.
> 
> 
> Does this not make sense



Nope, it doesn't.

Buildings in use take care of themselves.
Buildings with no one in them tend to get colder.
Insulation merely slows down the rate of loss of heat.
Unless the house is built near to a passive house standard it may not generate any heat from ambient sources.
This is because overcast skies with no wind and dropping soil temperatures means there is little ambient energy around to heat the house.
Unless some backgroundheating is on constantly - for example  underfloor  heating - the house will get colder and colder.
Attics by definition are unheated spaces and you will find several threads here dealing with problems of condensation and tank insulation.
Even under the current regulations, the water tank relies on heat rising from below to keep it from freezing.

Re the OP it would be useful to reach an agreement re this with your tenant.
Equally I am surprised that some general term about tenants having to maintain the property in good condition doesn't cover this kind of thing.
I would expect this to apply even while she's away in a cold snap, especially where the risk of burst pipes arises.

ONQ.


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## canicemcavoy (11 Jan 2010)

shootingstar said:


> I have not had any conversation with them about it at all. It just got me thinking this morning when *our own pipes had froze*.


 
Um, so hang on. You want to hold a tenant responsible for a problem in your property, that you yourself never foresaw?


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## shootingstar (11 Jan 2010)

onq said:


> Re the OP it would be useful to reach an agreement re this with your tenant.
> Equally I am surprised that some general term about tenants having to maintain the property in good condition doesn't cover this kind of thing.
> I would expect this to apply even while she's away in a cold snap, especially where the risk of burst pipes arises.
> 
> ONQ.



Im inclined to agree with this. Although if she did go away how would I even prove that. 

Do I write to her maybe advising her how to protect the property in this cold snap if it is vacant for a period of time? And if she doesnt then she "may well become responsible"... (note* i said MAY WELL). Again, Im going to pop down this week to her and have a look at the piping system. 

Her contract is due for renewal in Feb. Im certainly going to add a paragraph relating to same.


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## dewdrop (11 Jan 2010)

Are you running the risk  of having a vacant house. Surely the onus is on you to have proper insulation.


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## galwaytt (11 Jan 2010)

onq said:


> ....Buildings in use take care of themselves.....
> Buildings with no one in them tend to get colder....Insulation merely slows down the rate of loss of heat.........Unless some backgroundheating is on constantly ..... the house will get colder and colder....Attics by definition are unheated spaces and you will find several threads here dealing with problems of condensation and tank insulation.
> Even under the current regulations, the water tank relies on heat rising from below to keep it from freezing.......


All true.



onq said:


> ....Equally I am surprised that some general term about tenants having to maintain the property in good condition doesn't cover this kind of thing.
> I would expect this to apply even while she's away in a cold snap, especially where the risk of burst pipes arises.
> 
> ONQ.


Actually, there is. Or should be. The tenant has a Duty of Care to the property to treat is as if it's their own. This prevents them abdicating responsibility for issues such as this, through such actions.

A typical wording would be thus:

_"_
_1.1. *To keep* the furniture and contents specified in the attached Schedule hereto (and not to allow same to be removed from the premises) and interior of the premises including the glass in the windows, all locks, sash-cords, electric, gas and other fittings and installations and all additions thereto, and all drains, sanitary fittings, appliances and *pipes in good and tenantable repair order and condition *(damage by fire only excepted), *and to keep the Landlord effectually indemnified against all claims in respect thereof, and to pay for any damage done thereto and, normal wear and tear excepted, shall, when necessary, effect such redecoration or painting to the premises and contents so as to keep same in the condition that the premises and contents are now in*._
_1.5. *To pay to the Landlord the sum of* *€ xxx as security deposit* *for* the payment of rent and *compliance with the covenants and conditions herein *which deposit subject to such payment and compliance shall be refunded on the expiration of the tenancy; *in* *this regard, the Tenant specifically agrees and covenants that on the expiration of the tenancy*, that all rents shall be paid up to date, and *the premises and contents shall be in the same condition as they are now in* (normal wear and tear excepted) – and the contents shall be in the rooms in which they are now situate – for the Landlord to immediately relet the premises again without need to carry out any additional cleaning or works or repairs therein._

_*The Tenant further agrees and covenants that* if on the expiration of the tenancy any such cleaning or works or repairs need to be effected before the Landlord is in a position to relet the premises, then *the cost of said works or cleaning or repairs, as are necessary can be deducted by the Landlord from the security deposit provided for herein, and if such deposit is not sufficient to provide for the payment of said repairs*, cleaning or works, *the Tenant agrees to pay the balance due to the Landlord on demand*, and agrees that if not paid when demanded, these additional sums shall be recoverable by the Landlord from the Tenant as liquidated damages._

These are the terms of a 'standard' rental contract. 



shootingstar said:


> Im inclined to agree with this. Although if she did go away how would I even prove that.
> 
> Do I write to her maybe advising her how to protect the property in this cold snap if it is vacant for a period of time? And if she doesnt then she "may well become responsible"... (note* i said MAY WELL). Again, Im going to pop down this week to her and have a look at the piping system.
> 
> Her contract is due for renewal in Feb. Im certainly going to add a paragraph relating to same.


See above. Nothing to stop you writing a polite note to the tenant now, to keep the house heated, to prevent damage.



dewdrop said:


> Are you running the risk of having a vacant house. Surely the onus is on you to have proper insulation.


There is no legal requirement to provide a particular thermal standard of accomodation. Some property to let is atrocious, some brilliant, and range for G to A on the BER scale. All are available, and all priced respectively. Neither one end of the spectrum, nor the other, are a gaurantee that you won't run into the problem the OP has mentioned....nor that you won't. 

With regard to insulation, do remember it keeps heat to one side, cold to the other. If the tenant leaves the house, unheated, there's nothing to keep in, and damage of some form is inevitable. What home*owner* would do that, in this weather ? I'd wager, none. And so, by dint of being a tenant, and expected to act in a responsible manner, the same standards should apply.

It is a fact, that in these harder times, that some tenants are in a financial pickle. This I do not doubt. But some are taking drastic chances e.g. not switching on heat at all. This is an unfortunate situation, but doesn't absolve them of their responsibilities.

Finally, there is always insurance.


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## galwaytt (11 Jan 2010)

...sorry, don't know what happened with the font sizes in my response above.........can't seem to get them the same.......??.....


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## shootingstar (11 Jan 2010)

shootingstar said:


> If the tenant in my house decides not to put her heating on or she goes away for a few days etc (whatever the situation) and supposidly the pipes burst because they have froze, would I be responsible for the repair?
> 
> Just to clarify there is nothing in the contract relating to this?





shootingstar said:


> I have not had any conversation with them about it at all. It just got me thinking this morning when our own pipes had froze.
> 
> I accept that I would be responsible if something happens and shes at home with heating on maybe, but my Q was if she was away for few days etc or didnt have her heating on (which I know is highly unlikely) *would I then be liable? *
> Should I have a conversation with her just in case?





canicemcavoy said:


> Um, so hang on. You want to hold a tenant responsible for a problem in your property, that you yourself never foresaw?



Kindly point out exactly where I clarified I wanted to hold my Tenant responsible???? I have been asking Q's in here not making statements as such...! 



dewdrop said:


> Are you running the risk  of having a vacant house. Surely the onus is on you to have proper insulation.



Hi dewdrop, I honestly think the property is well insulated. Again, I think Im probably being too paranoid as she hasnt even contacted me at all about pipes etc. Im just worrying because our pipes froze. Mr SS cleared them within a half hour but not the point I know! 

There seems to be 2 opinions to this topic, both I appreciate but am inclined to sway towards the fact that if she neglects (<-- used very lightly so dont slaughter me) the property then she should be liable.. Nothing that a conversation with her wont sort out. I've arranged to pop to her Thurs.


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## kiwifruit (11 Jan 2010)

Could you please clarify,that you intend that your tenant puts the heating on in the rented property while she is away on holidays? And do you also want her to foot the bill for this?  I have property rented and I think its landlords like yourself that give landlords a bad name... Its quite reasonable to ask her to put the heating on for a couple hrs a day while she is away, but that you will contribute to the heating bill for the time she is away!!Thats reasonable.. Its seems from your post you are just covering yourself from any expense. You rent property  which means you have a responsibilty to the property and the tenant.  If your contract is up in Feb and you ask her to foot a heating bill while she isnt there,there are hundreds more properties that she can move to and maybe you will have to foot the heating bill for the rest of the winter yourself as the place will be vacant!!!!!!!
Dont be greedy, check out the water pipes and the insulation yourself and put a rubber ball in the water tank in the attic,this keeps the water moving which in turn makes it less likely to freeze.

Thanks for reading,
Kiwi


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## onq (11 Jan 2010)

galwaytt said:


> ...sorry, don't know what happened with the font sizes in my response above.........can't seem to get them the same.......??.....



I've had similar problems when copying and pasting.

I paste into notepad, then copy and paste here.

Unfortunately all the formatting is lost.

Click on the "advanced" tab...

FWIW

ONQ.


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## onq (11 Jan 2010)

kiwifruit said:


> <snip>
> Don't be greedy, check out the water pipes and the insulation yourself and put a rubber ball in the water tank in the attic,this keeps the water moving which in turn makes it less likely to freeze.



How does this rubber ball keep the water moving?

ONQ.


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## onq (11 Jan 2010)

shootingstar said:


> <snip>
> There seems to be 2 opinions to this topic, both I appreciate but am inclined to sway towards the fact that if she neglects (<-- used very lightly so dont slaughter me) the property then she should be liable.. Nothing that a conversation with her wont sort out. I've arranged to pop to her Thurs.


I'd have a close read of your rental agreement contract before hand.

I'd also advise having a brief chat with your solicitor about the legals of all this before you broach the subject.

Know where you stand in relation to the law before requesting someone to fulfil obligations in a matter like this - no points for being clueless or relying on the free advice given here.

ONQ.


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## shootingstar (11 Jan 2010)

Good sound advise ONQ. I have a meeting tomorrow afternoon with solicitor on another matter i'll take along my contract & speak to him before I approach Tenant. Will let ye know the legalities of it


Greedy - I am never... Careful - I am always


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## pjmcke (11 Jan 2010)

Shootingstar,
I have to agree with an earlier poster suggesting that this attitude gives landlords a bad name.
Why dont you not renew her contract after febuary and then see what the rental value of your property is in a new contract with new tennants. 
Consider youself lucky you have a tennant.


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## canicemcavoy (12 Jan 2010)

galwaytt said:


> With regard to insulation, do remember it keeps heat to one side, cold to the other. If the tenant leaves the house, unheated, there's nothing to keep in, and damage of some form is inevitable. What home*owner* would do that, in this weather


 
I'm not sure if you didn't read the original post, but the original poster *himself *did this:



> It just got me thinking this morning when *our own pipes had froze*.


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## Leo (12 Jan 2010)

galwaytt said:


> ...sorry, don't know what happened with the font sizes in my response above.........can't seem to get them the same.......??.....


 
Resized. You can edit the post and click on the 'Go Advanced' button which will give you options to change fonts and sizes.
Leo


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## MANTO (12 Jan 2010)

My presumption is..and i may be wrong.. you would be thinking of having the boiler timed to come on at certain times while the Tenant is away..

What happens if there is a gas leak and nobody in the property to shut the boiler down? Then who is to blame? 

(Presuming its GFCH)


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## onq (12 Jan 2010)

Manto, you aer perfectly correct of course, but you could take things too far in trying to foresee every eventuality.

The tenant has no liability in terms of a gas leak AFAIK -  that's what insurance is for.

ONQ.


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## galwaytt (12 Jan 2010)

kiwifruit said:


> Could you please clarify,that you intend that your tenant puts the heating on in the rented property while she is away on holidays? And do you also want her to foot the bill for this? I have property rented and I think its landlords like yourself that give landlords a bad name... Its quite reasonable to ask her to put the heating on for a couple hrs a day while she is away, but that you will contribute to the heating bill for the time she is away!!Thats reasonable..


 
I'm sorry, but that position is completely wrong.  If you were 'sharing' a house, then yes, that avenue may work, but in a formal landlord/tenant situation, it does not.  As a tenant, you have responsibilities, including a duty of care to take reasonable care of the property.   To leave an unheated house, in these temps, would be nothing short of negligent.

Whilst you are a contracted tenant, the property is your responsibility from one end of the lease to the other (book-ended).  You cannot dip in and out of your contract as the whim, or holiday brochure takes you......


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## galwaytt (12 Jan 2010)

Leo said:


> Resized. You can edit the post and click on the 'Go Advanced' button which will give you options to change fonts and sizes.
> Leo


 
..tks !


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## nad (12 Jan 2010)

There seems to be 2 opinions to this topic, both I appreciate but am inclined to sway towards the fact that if she neglects (<-- used very lightly so dont slaughter me) the property then she should be liable.. Nothing that a conversation with her wont sort out. I've arranged to pop to her Thurs. 


Shootingstar are you for real

Are you saying because the tenant might not have left the heating on whilst she was away from the property she would be responsible,

please clarify,

IMHO, you as landlord is responsible,
and i think that posting this thread on here, makes me Feel sorry for the tenant to have a landlord like you,who has no problem collecting the rent,But then tries to wriggle out of his own responsibilities, pure GREED is what it seem's to me, it's landlords like you shootingstar that give the rental buisness a bad name,be thankful you have a tenant in the current climate,because come Feb you might not,
and finally put the boot on the other foot for a moment and if you was the tenant would you HONESTLY BELIEVE that that because you might not have left the heating on whilst you was out of the property that YOU AS TENANT was responsible for a burst pipe,


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## Bronte (13 Jan 2010)

I had this same problem about 10/15 years ago.  Tenant's went away for xmas and I visited to find the water like rain coming through the house.  The insurance paid for the damage to my house but not the tenant's contents (they naturally never returned after collecting their stuff)  I had a light/heater installed in the attic that apparently has solved the problem ever since but I don't know about this unusual severe winter what would have happened if the heat had not been on.  

When I travel to Ireland I leave the heat on in my own home at a low temperature constantly as I don't want the house to freeze, but I do this as it's my own home.  I wouldn't really expect a tenant to do so, but if I knew a tenant was leaving during severe weather I would (and did 2 xmas's ago) pay for some oil to keep the house at a minimum temperature in their absence.  I don't want the hassle of an insurance claim.  

In relation to Galwaytt's lease, I don't' think it's reasonable for a tenant to be responsible for the pipes freezing over.


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## MANTO (13 Jan 2010)

onq said:


> Manto, you aer perfectly correct of course, but you could take things too far in trying to foresee every eventuality.
> 
> The tenant has no liability in terms of a gas leak AFAIK - that's what insurance is for.
> 
> ONQ.


 
I agree ONQ, you could come up with a hundred scenarios if you really wanted to. 

Would it not be sufficient / reasonable for both parties to come to an agreement where by:

Tenant goes on holidays & notifies LLord
Llord agrees to call to property and turn on heating at regular intervals
Tenant agrees to pay the bill once heating is not left on constant.

Both parties interests are covered and i dont think it is unreasonable for the Llord to play their part to protect their interests (property)?


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## shootingstar (13 Jan 2010)

Right.....!!

Sought legal advise on this. 

Landlord is responsible for burst pipes and Landlords insurance wil cover same. Landlord is entitled to deduct the excess on the policy from tenants deposit. Tenant is oblidged to inform Landlord if the property is going to be vacant for a period of time during such weather.

Just to clarify... Im female not male! As one poster suggested


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## MANTO (13 Jan 2010)

shootingstar said:


> Sought legal advise on this.


 
Excellent,

So just to clarify, If say, I am your tenant and i advise you i will not be in the property for the first two weeks in January as i am going on holidays, am I still Liable for excess even though i have formally (in writing) advised you the property will be vacant?


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## chrisboy (13 Jan 2010)

shootingstar said:


> Right.....!!
> 
> Sought legal advise on this.
> 
> ...



Landlord is responsible for burst pipes but you can deduct excess from deposit??

Surely not if its landlords responsibility? Sounds a bit contradictory to me..


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## MANTO (13 Jan 2010)

Thats exactly what i was thinking, now i could accept if you DID NOT notify your LLord the premises would be vacant during a cold snap like the one we just had, then the LLord could take the excess as they had no knowledge of the premises being vacant and therefore could do anything to prevent freezing..

But being THEIR property and THEY are legally required to insure the property - how can this be liability if the tenant????


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## chrisboy (13 Jan 2010)

What if you decide to go for the cheapest possible policy with a 1000 euro excess?


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## shootingstar (13 Jan 2010)

chrisboy said:


> Landlord is responsible for burst pipes but you can deduct excess from deposit??
> 
> Surely not if its landlords responsibility? Sounds a bit contradictory to me..



Enclined to agree, yes it does sound contradictory however...
I can only tell you what was said to me by my solicitor today. As mentioned in an earlier post, I was visiting my solicitor for a total different reason and I kinda threw in the Q at the end of our meeting so it was a very brief conversation. 

I got my answer and hopefully we wont have to endure these artic weather conditions again! Who knows!


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## DavyJones (13 Jan 2010)

I have seen more burst pipes in the last four weeks then in my whole career, saying that I was only a child in the 80's, when the last big frezze hit.

We have seen pipes burst in all buildings, commerical and domestic. Yesterday I was in a public building where pipe work was insulated with heavy lagging and the installer can not be blamed, I was in a house last week, where every inch of pipework was lagged and the pipe burst.

The biggest factor to burst pipes in attics was the lack of heating. We have been to many vacant rental properties where they burst, simply because there was no heat on.


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## onq (13 Jan 2010)

DavyJones said:


> <snip>
> The biggest factor to burst pipes in attics was the lack of heating. We have been to many vacant rental properties where they burst, simply because there was no heat on.



I wonder how keeping on heat in empty buildings to prevent water damage will site with our somewhat evangelical green Environment Minister?

ONQ.


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## onq (14 Jan 2010)

chrisboy said:


> Landlord is responsible for burst pipes but you can deduct excess from deposit??
> 
> Surely not if its landlords responsibility? Sounds a bit contradictory to me..



It sounds like the solicitor was addressing two different scenarios - that having been said I didn't ask the question or receive the reply.

If the tenant informs the landlord then he can take steps to heat the place.

If not and the place suffers a burst pipe, the landlord's cover will sort it and he is entitled to recover the additional premium from the tenant.

I inferred from this that if the landlord knew and did nothing, he might be in a bit of a cleft stick, but perhaps that wasn't the solicitor's intent.

ONQ.


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## Marion (14 Jan 2010)

For how many hours exactly will the tenant have to have the heat on? And, at what temperature exactly to cope with with the specific conditions?

I think it is unrealistic to expect the tenant to be responsible. 


Marion


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## Bronte (14 Jan 2010)

I would not agree with a landlord getting the excess on the landlord's insurance policy.  This can't be right.  

If a tenant was liable for freezing pipes in any way then there would be insurance policies for this but there aren't as far as I know.  There is tenant's content insurance but not tenant's house policies for fire/water/freezing etc because those are the landlord's responsibility.

This has been an extraordinary winter, an extreme event so there is no way any tenant could be liable for it.  Any landlord who would do so, well shame on them.


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## shootingstar (14 Jan 2010)

I most definitely will be deducting the excess from them if it bursts after what i saw yesterday! By law I can do this... 

Im the most quiet, reserved person - anyone who is my friend would tell ye this. I hate confrontation... honest! My opinion of this whole thread is ill go with what my solicitor tells me to do & will follow his advise very carefully if something happens in the house whether its immoral or not! My reason 
being....http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=66919 - this is a thread I posted before....  

I called to check the piping system yesterday WHAT A SIGHT!!! (im changing the topic a little bit here so bare with me)

1. - The house is stinking, I MEAN STINKING!

2. - There is a car port after being errected out the back which is in full view to the front of the house, this guy is no builder let me tell you - its horrendous & they did not seek permissing to errect such a structure. 

3. - There are 2 dogs & kennels out the back. First I knew of it

4. - Rent has been late EVERYTIME to the point my solicitor has written to her. i stopped chasing her. Even though she gets RA

5. - The garden has not been maintained at all, its completely *full *of dog poop

6. - The gravel has weeds growing up through it. I clearly stated in the contract I would maintain this but it was the tenants duty to inform me of same.

7. - The rubbish in the kitchen is right up beyond the counter top!!!  I checked to see if she had dustbins outside, nothing! There is black bags of rubbish torm open outside! IMHO this will draw rats

8. - There was 5 children in the house... wait for it.... she told me they were all hers. My understanding was she had 3 kids. all of whom I wrote on the PRTB forms. She forgot 1 *and *she has a brand new baby there now too

9. - There is a car abandoned at the side of the house on top of the sleepers (curbing) this has actually caused the sleeper to move, which I might add are bloody heavy to do... anyway.... not really a big issue, just unsightly 

10. - My timber decking out the back is partially burnt, as in bits broken off a burnt

11. - I bought a beautiful antique cast iron stand alone letter box which I can honestly say im so proud of and people have often commented on it. It requires a key to open which she has. There a note on it stating "postman, box bust please leave post in tin on ground"... devastated 

I did not discuss anything with tenant as I was teary eyed & had a lump in my throat. 

So for those of you who called me greedy / bad attitude / shame on me & such... I will most likely be serving that tenant notice along with her 5 children to find alternative accommodation. And whatever it costs me to get the house back to "renting standards" I will be deducting from her deposit. Ill give her notice tomorrow for the 25th feb. That should give her enough time to get out. Thats when her lease is up. 

I bought that house on my own as a single parent. I worked 3 jobs (honestly) and the day i moved in I had 32p in my bank. My mum gave me a loan of 5k to furnish it. It was one of the happiest but toughest times of my life. To see my beautiful house destroyed in such a short period of time was so upsetting yesterday....


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## galwaytt (14 Jan 2010)

MANTO said:


> Excellent,
> 
> So just to clarify, If say, I am your tenant and i advise you i will not be in the property for the first two weeks in January as i am going on holidays, am I still Liable for excess even though i have formally (in writing) advised you the property will be vacant?


 
Yes. You going on holidays is irrelevant. The building is still leased to you. You are not suspending the lease whilst you're away. If you're logic was true, and factoring in risk to the building, then people who take longer holidays rather than shorter ones would end up paying higher rent. Or people who take skiing holidays over summer holidays would have to pay higher rent. Or, people who work nights (building unattended), would have to pay higher rents. Which, of course, is nonsense.



MANTO said:


> Thats exactly what i was thinking, now i could accept if you DID NOT notify your LLord the premises would be vacant during a cold snap like the one we just had, then the LLord could take the excess as they had no knowledge of the premises being vacant and therefore could do anything to prevent freezing..
> 
> But being THEIR property and THEY are legally required to insure the property - how can this be liability if the tenant????


 
You're confusing the issue: Insurance is not a 'catch-all' for all eventualities. It is also encumbered with responsibilities, negligence being one of them. If you go away, don't tell anyone, turn off the heat, and we get the weather we just have, there's only party negligent: the tenant.   And for that, you're liable.

ShootingStar - sounds like plumbing is just 1 of your issues! Looks like when that lease goes up (next month), that you won't be renewing. Don't forget the tenant is also legally liable to hand back the property in the condition you gave it to him, in. If it costs €€ to fix, the tenant is fully liable for all costs - that's what your security deposit is for.


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## MANTO (14 Jan 2010)

I am not confusing any issue - the issue raised was - who is responsible for freezing pipes - as Bronte pointed out (as a Landlady) - there is no policies available for tenants to take out insurance againt another persons property - that alone should answer the question,

Shootingstar - you obviously have a lot more issues than the orignal thread suggested - my heart honestly goes out to you and i hope your solicitor can do everything in their power to help you.


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## Bronte (14 Jan 2010)

Shooting star your issue is not what this thread was about.

You are in serious trouble, this is going to cost a lot more than the deposit so you need to think about that now.

Your tenant, from your description, is what we all dread, the tenant from hell.  Therefore you need to thread very carefully.  If you give notice do you think she will leave, probably not.  You should look up other threads on this very topic on here.  I also recommend you to contact the Irish property owners body for advice, and make sure that you comply with all the PRTB rules on the tenant.  Start with taking pictures etc.  I've had a similar tenant and I got rid of them by giving them back the deposit !  You should never furnish your house with anything that would upset you should it be damaged.  Good solid servicble and unbreakable stuff.

Best of luck as you're going to need it.


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## S.L.F (14 Jan 2010)

MANTO said:


> as Bronte pointed out (as a Landlady)


 
A landlord doesn't have sex (I'm sure some of the wags here will be getting onto me about that) they can be either male or female.


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## S.L.F (14 Jan 2010)

shootingstar said:


> So for those of you who called me greedy / bad attitude / shame on me & such... I will most likely be serving that tenant notice along with her 5 children to find alternative accommodation. And whatever it costs me to get the house back to "renting standards" I will be deducting from her deposit. Ill give her notice tomorrow for the 25th feb. That should give her enough time to get out. Thats when her lease is up.


 
SS you probaby drive a big fancy car and live the life of luxury on the backs of your down-trodden tenants who work so hard to bring you their rent with cap in hand. 

***Anyway back to reality***

From having seen the state of my flat after being vacated by tenants I believe the deposit should be at least 3 months rent rather one that would stop people messing about with us


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## Bronte (14 Jan 2010)

S.L.F said:


> A landlord doesn't have sex (I'm sure some of the wags here will be getting onto me about that) they can be either male or female.


 
I always quote myself as a landlord. To me a landlady is a digs situation, where you live in the house with the person from whom you are renting.

I agree with you about the 3 months deposit, more in keeping with our European neighbours where long term leases are more common.


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## MANTO (14 Jan 2010)

S.L.F said:


> A landlord doesn't have sex (I'm sure some of the wags here will be getting onto me about that) they can be either male or female.


 
Whats with the pettiness; 

Anyway: 

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/landlady 

*1. *A woman who owns and rents land, buildings, or dwelling units


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## webbs (14 Jan 2010)

If thats the case if you want 3 months rent then it should be held over by a third party and an independent assessment be taken out (at the landlords expense) of the condition of the property. Maybe then the tenant would also get back any interest that is owing to him from the deposit!!
There are far too many landlords who withhold the deposit or portion of it when the tenant has left the property in the same condition as at start (bar any reasonable wear and tear). 
The problem is that good landlords are then tarred with the same brush in the same way that landlords look on tenants with an inherent distrust because of poor tenants


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## DavyJones (14 Jan 2010)

S.L.F said:


> A landlord doesn't have sex



 who'd want to be a Landlord then?


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## S.L.F (14 Jan 2010)

MANTO said:


> Whats with the pettiness;
> 
> Anyway:
> 
> ...


 
That is exactly what I said to a woman one day (owns about 10 houses) and she said to me a landlady runs a boarding house or a pub, she lets out property so as far as she's concerned (and me too) she's a landlord.

So's my wife...


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## S.L.F (14 Jan 2010)

webbs said:


> If thats the case if you want 3 months rent then it should be held over by a third party and an independent assessment be taken out (at the landlords expense) of the condition of the property. Maybe then the tenant would also get back any interest that is owing to him from the deposit!!
> There are far too many landlords who withhold the deposit or portion of it when the tenant has left the property in the same condition as at start (bar any reasonable wear and tear).
> The problem is that good landlords are then tarred with the same brush in the same way that landlords look on tenants with an inherent distrust because of poor tenants


 
I agree but the property would have to be totally repainted before it is returned and done by a professional not some botch job.


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## sam h (14 Jan 2010)

> webbs              *Re: Burst pipe who's responsible - Landlord / Tenant?*
> If thats the case if you want 3 months rent then it should be held over by a third party and an independent assessment be taken out (at the landlords expense) of the condition of the property. Maybe then the tenant would also get back any interest that is owing to him from the deposit!!


Webbs, you make an excellent point.  As far as I know, this happens in many other countries, the money is held independently or in an interest yielding account. I have no problem with this as I always keep the deposit separate as I don't consider it to be mine.   

I'd be happy to pay an independent assessor to check over a property if the tenant has the onus to return the property in the condition it was given.  My sister rented in Brussels and she scrubbed and painted as if her life depended on it as there were 3 months rent at stake.  The LL checked all the paintwork (has to be a specific make and colour so she can match it).  There could be nothing hung on the walls.  The floor was checked for paint splatter.  Oven, fridge, bathrooms, floors, beds etc had to pristine or replaced.

Anyway, Shootingstar, my heart goes out to you, you always feel more emotionally attached to a place you have lived in, but you can't.  Make sure your notice follows the letter of the law. Write a list of what needs to be done in order for go get her deposit back (TBH, if everything else gets done, the excess on your insurance will be the least of your problems).  Try not to get upset.  Be professional and up front with her and see where you stand after.  

As per another tread, I'm getting so dismayed with the whole thing.  People reckon LL's have loads of money and they are fair play.  We've worked very hard to manage to buy another place - I always saw it as a pension, but now I'm not so sure.  My yield was only about 1.5% last year (previous tenants trashed the place & cost a small fortune just to get it back in order).  I still had to pay tax on that.  I have to pay the NPPR again in just 2 months.  I'd make well more than that in the bank.  In the absence of any capital appriciation it's just not worth it.  But, I have managed to re-rent so I'll give it another year and see where I stand.

PS - take you antique letter box out of there, she probably just lost the key.

Good luck


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## MANTO (14 Jan 2010)

S.L.F said:


> That is exactly what I said to a woman one day (owns about 10 houses) and she said to me a landlady runs a boarding house or a pub, she lets out property so as far as she's concerned (and me too) she's a landlord.
> 
> So's my wife...



oh ok... i didnt realise the Dictionary is wrong!


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## Bronte (15 Jan 2010)

webbs said:


> If thats the case if you want 3 months rent then it should be held over by a third party and an independent assessment be taken out (at the landlords expense) of the condition of the property. Maybe then the tenant would also get back any interest that is owing to him from the deposit!!


 
I would absolutely love such a system.  Where I am is exactly how it operates (not the interest bit !) and basically the tenant is responsible for everything, all apartments etc are pristine on letting and leaving.  And I mean pristine.  They even measure how high the hedge is when you go in and it has to be the same when you leave.  Independant assessment is paid for by the tenant or split 50/50.  It's more in the interest of a tenant to have the assessment paid for by his professional rather than the landlord's.

Re the landlady thing, having been a landlady myself in another life I forgot about the pub landlady.  I prefer being a landlord, much easier.


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## webbs (15 Jan 2010)

Bronte said:


> I would absolutely love such a system.  Where I am is exactly how it operates (not the interest bit !) and basically the tenant is responsible for everything, all apartments etc are pristine on letting and leaving.  And I mean pristine.  They even measure how high the hedge is when you go in and it has to be the same when you leave.  Independant assessment is paid for by the tenant or split 50/50.  It's more in the interest of a tenant to have the assessment paid for by his professional rather than the landlord's.
> 
> Re the landlady thing, having been a landlady myself in another life I forgot about the pub landlady.  I prefer being a landlord, much easier.



I disagree with your comment about it being in the interest of the tenant to get the tenant to pay for an independent assessor. 
I think it should be the other way around - if the money is held by a 3rd party then the assessor should be paid for by the landlord, surely its more in their interest it is that persons business after all. For example if i hire a car I dont pay for someone else to check that it is in the correct condition the hirer does.
The other issue I have and this is a tricky one is the condition of the property on leaving, as having rented plenty of properties usually for a period of upto a maximum of 3years then I believe that if it is normal wear and tear (including decoration) then it is the landlords responsibility to make good every few years or so. 
I think that many landlords forget (especially those who just have a single buy to let property) that it is a business they are running and not a service. They are charging someone for a product and its upto them to price it accordingly. You dont pay extra in a hotel room for decoration or because you have used their chairs etc it is included in the price and is an overhead of the hotel as it should be for landlords


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## S.L.F (15 Jan 2010)

Bronte said:


> I would absolutely love such a system. Where I am is exactly how it operates (not the interest bit !) and basically the tenant is responsible for everything, all apartments etc are pristine on letting and leaving. And I mean pristine. They even measure how high the hedge is when you go in and it has to be the same when you leave. Independant assessment is paid for by the tenant or split 50/50. It's more in the interest of a tenant to have the assessment paid for by his professional rather than the landlord's.


 
That's the way it is done in Germany too, I was told by someone that in you don't get a kitchen there you have to provide one yourself and the walls can be whatever colour you want as long as they are white the next people move in and they paint it whatever colour they want and then when they leave they paint them back white again.

Sounds like the way to go.


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## S.L.F (15 Jan 2010)

webbs said:


> I disagree with your comment about it being in the interest of the tenant to get the tenant to pay for an independent assessor.
> I think it should be the other way around - if the money is held by a 3rd party then the assessor should be paid for by the landlord, surely its more in their interest it is that persons business after all. For example if i hire a car I dont pay for someone else to check that it is in the correct condition the hirer does.
> The other issue I have and this is a tricky one is the condition of the property on leaving, as having rented plenty of properties usually for a period of upto a maximum of 3years then I believe that if it is normal wear and tear (including decoration) then it is the landlords responsibility to make good every few years or so.
> I think that many landlords forget (especially those who just have a single buy to let property) that it is a business they are running and not a service. They are charging someone for a product and its upto them to price it accordingly.
> There is a flip side to your theory, the only time an assessor would be needed would be if there was a disagreement between landlord and tenant, neither would be happy with choices made by the other.


 
If it has to be someone independant then the costs would have to be 50/50 or the person who calls the assessor pays.



webbs said:


> You dont pay extra in a hotel room for decoration or because you have used their chairs etc it is included in the price and is an overhead of the hotel as it should be for landlords


 
A hotel is a poor choice of comparison as you stay in a hotel for a short period of time (most people for a few short days) most rental properties are rented for months at a time the difference in prices for the 2 is large.

A hotel will cost you from about €80 upwards where as you can get a reasonable place in Dublin to rent for about €16 a day.


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## webbs (15 Jan 2010)

S.L.F said:


> That's the way it is done in Germany too, I was told by someone that in you don't get a kitchen there you have to provide one yourself and the walls can be whatever colour you want as long as they are white the next people move in and they paint it whatever colour they want and then when they leave they paint them back white again.
> 
> Sounds like the way to go.



We dont have the same culture as them in that renting has been seen as a long term thing in the likes of Germany, Netherlands etc whereas buying is the culture here and the UK and despite the current climate I cant see this changing that dramatically.
Until we have the same protection for tenants from landlords as in the likes of Germany then its unlikely to happen. There is obviously two camps here with distrust on both sides. Ask pretty much anyone who has been a renter over a few properties and they will always go into a new place with a sense of distrust and of resignation that the landlord will do the best to screw us out of our deposit at the end, and am sure the feeling is similar for landlords in distrusting tenants


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## S.L.F (15 Jan 2010)

webbs said:


> Until we have the same protection for tenants from landlords as in the likes of Germany then its unlikely to happen.


 
In fairness it must be pointed out to you that the law is biased in favour of tenants in this country, even if a landlord gets a judgement in their favour the chances of an ex-tenant having anything of value is slim.

Not a day goes by without me worrying about what a tenant can do to my flat and having no real legal recourse to deal with them afterwards.

The PRTB only works if both parties are prepared to play ball if someone has been given proper notice to quit and decides they don't want to move a landlord can't evict them, no matter what the tenant does to his property or how long they haven't been paying rent.

Landlords in this country have a bad deal.


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## S.L.F (15 Jan 2010)

webbs said:


> Ask pretty much anyone who has been a renter over a few properties and they will always go into a new place with a sense of distrust and of resignation that the *landlord will do the best* to screw us out of our deposit at the end, and am sure the feeling is similar for landlords in distrusting tenants


 
That is totally unfair for the majority of landlords, I have never held money over even when the place has been filthy.

Regarding trust I meet all my new tenants and ask for a reference but rarely check it because  lets face facts anybody can write a piece on a paper, I perfer to go by my gut instinct on what people are like if I just don't like someone they won't get the place.

I've been a LL for 7 years now and am sorry I allowed 1 couple to let the place against my instincts (cost me hundreds to fix everything afterwards)


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## webbs (15 Jan 2010)

S.L.F said:


> That is totally unfair for the majority of landlords, I have never held money over even when the place has been filthy.



I couldnt agree more that it is unfair on vast majority of Landlords and likewise with tenants the vast majority look after the properties very well. But it only takes one bad landlord to make a renter wary the next time and vice versa

I did most of my renting in London and would say that you would be in the minority if you did not withhold some deposit if the place was filthy. 
Several times I have had some of the deposit withheld from me and I always leave the place immaculate, the last renting place we cleaned what we thought was everywhere, scrubbing skirting boards the lot  and when landlord checked he said there was dirt on the picture rail and therefore we had obviously not kept the place well and would deduct money for a cleaner to come in. 
Yet when we had moved in we had had to clean the oven and kitchen units as they were filthy and had told the landlord that, yet no joy, and as is often the case a tenant needs the deposit for his next place so cannot get into a protracted dispute over a £100 or so.

I completely see where you and other good landlords are coming from but what I said above is an example of why I would say that Ireland will remain country of home owners rather than renters


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## sam h (15 Jan 2010)

Webbs, I'd have been back so fast with my marigolds & mop.  There's no way I'd let a landlord with-hold the deposit if the place was left clean.  You probably should have followed that up with PRTB.

While I ask for a place to be left as they got it, it very rarely is but once the place isn't trashed, I always give back the deposit.  I would expect that the presses, oven, fridge etc will have to be cleaned.


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## S.L.F (15 Jan 2010)

sam h said:


> Webbs, I'd have been back so fast with my marigolds & mop. There's no way I'd let a landlord with-hold the deposit if the place was left clean. You probably should have followed that up with PRTB.
> 
> While I ask for a place to be left as they got it, it very rarely is but once the place isn't trashed, I always give back the deposit. I would expect that the presses, oven, fridge etc will have to be cleaned.


 
I think that fact that webbs said £100 would mean (s)he is (was) in a diferent country while renting that property.

When I was renting one of my LLs would have you leave the property then he'd inspect it (within 24 hours) and give you back the deposit when he'd meet you afterwards, it is what I do now.

It gives me a chance to have a really good look at the place and if I have any problems I'll call them and get them to fix the problem with me there.

If someone wants their deposit back faster I'll write them a cheque and then inspect it any problems I'll cancel the cheque if need be.


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## DGOBS (17 Jan 2010)

Back to the OP, why not just have a frost stat installed to your property, in event of very cold weather it will over-ride the heat controls and heat the property......to answer a simple question on how to avoid the problem.


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## S.L.F (17 Jan 2010)

DGOBS said:


> Back to the OP, why not just have a frost stat installed to your property, in event of very cold weather it will over-ride the heat controls and heat the property......to answer a simple question on how to avoid the problem.


 
That's fine for inside the house but if the pipes freeze out side it won't help


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## DGOBS (17 Jan 2010)

SLF the OP had asked how to overcome the issue of the tenant going away and
maybe not leaving a low heat setting on, hence frozen pipe inside.

No one is suggesting that a house heating system would stop external pipes from freezing.........I wish as just spent 2 weeks with no water!


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## shootingstar (17 Jan 2010)

Just to update you all... 

After sitting down and weighting up the pros & cons I decided to hand deliver a letter to the tenant. Explaining everything... 

I gave them a chance to clean up the place & an inspection would be inevitable with good notice of same. 

Can you believe I cant afford to kick them out just yet. I rented out my home this time round because I couldnt afford the mortgage (came out of my job Jan 09 and seriously struggling to find work since, can you believe!!).. Yes they've been late with rent but I managed to get it off them so my mortgage has never been late thank god... 

Bad situation to be in guys


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## S.L.F (18 Jan 2010)

DGOBS said:


> SLF the OP had asked how to overcome the issue of the tenant going away and* maybe* not leaving a low heat setting on, hence frozen pipe inside.!


 
It's just an extra expense for something that might work but by the same token it might not work.

My pipes in the attic froze recently and I didn't know such a thing existed so thank you, as soon as I have some spare cash I'll get one installed.



DGOBS said:


> I wish as just spent 2 weeks with no water!


 
The waters been frozen once and has been cut off twice now for ourselves


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