# rights as next of kin



## merzie (2 Aug 2007)

hi would anybody be able to advise me on the following issue. my 17 yr old daughter had a baby last week, the father is not around , she lives with me at home, the baby took ill and is in hospital, i am my daughters next of kin and when i asked for information on the babies illness i was told they could only give that information to the mom and dad, when i said she is still a minor and my responsibility, i was told it made no difference, my daughter doesn't really understand whats going on. Do i Have any rights in this case


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## Marianne S (2 Aug 2007)

Maybe your daughter could ask the hospital to specify you as a second contact person


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## merzie (2 Aug 2007)

she has already been ask who her next of kin is and she said me so i dont understand, she has no one else, i tried to get this across to the staff nurse but she made me feel like an interfering gran and thats not the way it is at all


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## Marianne S (2 Aug 2007)

They might have wanted to know who your daughter's next of kin is for a different reason.Your daughter is the baby's next of kin so she would need to broach the subject with the hospital herself. She should tell them that you are also to informed about the baby's condition. I hope everything works out ok


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## csirl (3 Aug 2007)

This is an interesting one. By law a 17 year old cannot have custody of a child as a minor cannot have reposibility for another minor. Though it appears that the HSE generally has disregard for this.

Question is where who does have the responsibility - (can any family law experts help out with some aspects of this?)

There are 3 possibilities:

1. The father - is he over 18? Does he have to apply to court for custody? May be issues over statutory rape if your daughter was under 17 when became pregnant and father was over 18.

2. The Grandparents - A parent automatically owns all their under 18 childrens possessions, so you may be automatically entitled to custody? Any family law experts clear this up?

3. The State - where nobody has custody of a child, it automatically goes to the state as a ward of court. State may have custody.

One thing is clear is that your daughter, as a minor, cannot legally have sole custody.


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## csirl (3 Aug 2007)

> i was told they could only give that information to the mom and dad,


 
Hospital is giving out incorrect information as mom and dad may not have custody for a variety of reasons.


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## ClubMan (3 Aug 2007)

Does the hospital's patient charter say anything about this matter?


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## Vanilla (3 Aug 2007)

Custody is not an issue here. It's a bit of a red herring. Nobody has disputed custody of the infant, nobody has alerted the Health Board that the infant is in any need of other care. The infant is with her mother and she is being well cared for. Presumably the father is not questioning that. Therefore the issue of custody simply doesnt arise.

The OP wants to be involved in discussions about treatment of or just given information about the baby. On a very practical level the staff are dealing with the babies mother. Now she is a minor and if you wanted to get very technical/legal with the staff you could start by stating that you do not consider her sufficiently mature to make decisions about the baby by herself and that you want to be involved in all discussions about this. However unless you are in the hospital with your daughter at all times, how are the staff going to be able to do this- or do you feel that they shouldn't discuss anything with your daughter unless you are there? Most hospitals are very careful to respect the patient's privacy, in this case I'd imagine they are trying to respect your daughter's privacy.

As ClubMan says the hospital charter will often have some generalised rules in relation to this too. So on a very practical level- if your daughter finds the information confusing and wants you to be there for all discussions she can just say so to the staff and you should inform them that your daughter is a minor and not, at least right now, in a position to give informed consent to any treatment without your input.


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## ClubMan (3 Aug 2007)

Most or all hospitals also have a specific staff member to deal with customer charter issues so perhaps give them a shout to clarify the issue?


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## aircobra19 (3 Aug 2007)

merzie said:


> she has already been ask who her next of kin is and she said me so i dont understand, she has no one else, i tried to get this across to the staff nurse but she made me feel like an interfering gran and thats not the way it is at all



Perhaps theres someone else you could contact in the hospital to find out what the hospital policy is and how you can satisfy their policy.


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## TDON (3 Aug 2007)

I'd agree with Vanilla. Whilst I know mine is a different situation, it is non the less an analogy. My mother is seriously ill, with so many different complaints, resulting from the treatment, of the original illness. Therefore, when we go to see the hospital for visits to her consultant, it is up to me to go with her and listen and take everything in. Also, she doesn't remember things as well as she used to, so I also give the consultant any information he requires. There is never a problem and no one ever gives me grief that I go along and go in for all her tests (including some I really don't want to!) with her. I think they are being unreasonable, but maybe at some stage someone they knew got into trouble and they are just covering their ass. Perhaps if you went in with your daughter, the way I do with my mother, for all discussions and have your daughter say, "this is my mother, I want her here", you will find out more. Not only that, but the staff will recognise you and be more helpful (fingers crossed) and forthcoming in the future.

Hope the baby is well again soon and it all works out.


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## aircobra19 (3 Aug 2007)

You'll find bureaucracy gone made in hospitals these days often at the expense of common sense and not in the patients best interest. You meet a lot of tin pot dicators too. So you need to find out what the policy is and statisfy it. They can't refuse you then, when you quote their own policy back to them. 


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## ClubMan (3 Aug 2007)

To be fair the issue of patient privacy is more than just a question of bureaucracy gone mad. By their nature rules about privacy/security will always invonvenience some people since that's the whole point - to prevent those who are not entitled getting certain info. It should not be that difficult to establish what the rules are and then work within them as the previous poster suggests and as outlined in other posts above.


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## merzie (3 Aug 2007)

Vanilla said:


> Custody is not an issue here. It's a bit of a red herring. Nobody has disputed custody of the infant,[/html] nobody has alerted the Health Board that the infant is in any need of other care. The infant is with her mother and she is being well cared for. Presumably the father is not questioning that. Therefore the issue of custody simply doesnt arise.


 
The OP wants to be involved in discussions about treatment of or just given information about the baby. On a very practical level the staff are dealing with the babies mother. Now she is a minor and if you wanted to get very technical/legal with the staff you could start by stating that you do not consider her sufficiently mature to make decisions about the baby by herself and that you want to be involved in all discussions about this. However unless you are in the hospital with your daughter at all times, how are the staff going to be able to do this- or do you feel that they shouldn't discuss anything with your daughter unless you are there? Most hospitals are very careful to respect the patient's privacy, in this case I'd imagine they are trying to respect your daughter's privacy.

As ClubMan says the hospital charter will often have some generalised rules in relation to this too. So on a very practical level- if your daughter finds the information confusing and wants you to be there for all discussions she can just say so to the staff and you should inform them that your daughter is a minor and not, at least right now, in a position to give informed consent to any treatment without your input.


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## merzie (3 Aug 2007)

Vanilla is right, its not a matter of custody, my Daughter is young but capable of caring for the child with the support of myself. We Have a very special relationship we could be called soul mates, she thrusts me and has told the doctor that she would like me to be the other person to be informed of the childs health issues. I am with her in the hospital most of the day but missed the doctor today, when i rang up to ask about the childs progress and other related issues i was dealth with is a snappy and very blunt manner. My Daughter was very upset as she only gave birth and is very emotional. I understand the parental rights thing but what i can't understand is that im my daughters parent and she along with the baby need my help and support , she is turning to me to help find out more and i can't, i never felt so helpless,


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## csirl (3 Aug 2007)

> Vanilla is right, its not a matter of custody, my Daughter is young but capable of caring for the child with the support of myself.


 
The fact that your daughter is very capable of caring for the child is not an issue. The simple fact is that, in the eyes of the law, your daughter is a minor and therefore is not allowed to have custody of another minor (your grandchild). I think it comes from the various Childrens Acts or one of these international treaties transposed into Irish law (can someone confirm?) - children should not have responsibilities of adults. 

In this particular case, it may be just a matter of explaining to the hospital staff that your daughter is a minor who is in your custody (as you are parent), so any information due to the babies "parents" should also be given to you. The hospital staff may not be aware that your daughter is a minor (I know it would be written in the notes etc., but the staff on duty in the ward may not be aware as I doubt they memorise the d.o.b. of everyone they come across).


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## csirl (3 Aug 2007)

P.S. you get similar problems where the parents of a child are not married - even when they are cohabiting. Some hospitals etc. will not give info to the father unless they have received permission of the mother or the father has gone to family law court and was granted guardianship. Where guardianship and custodys are not automatic under law, it is always better to get them formally granted.


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## Vanilla (3 Aug 2007)

csirl said:


> P.S. you get similar problems where the parents of a child are not married - even when they are cohabiting. Some hospitals etc. will not give info to the father unless they have received permission of the mother or the father has gone to family law court and was granted guardianship. Where guardianship and custodys are not automatic under law, it is always better to get them formally granted.


 

I don't agree with this at all. If it's working there's no need to 'fix' it. Applications to court are necessary only where there is disagreement. In some circumstances I might recommend an unmarried father to seek guardianship but that's it.

The hospital doesnt care who has 'custody'- it is entirely outside their remit in these circumstances. It is only where there is an actual custody dispute that it might come into the equation. Guardianship would be more relevant and only where the father of the baby is concerned.


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## merzie (4 Aug 2007)

thank you all for your replys i am glad it is getting a debate. Thankfully the baby got the all clear today. We did ask for the hospital policy and we were put on  to the liasons officer and she agreed that i should be informed of the childs health issues. She said its just in some cases the young mother might not get along with her parents and would prefer them not to be involved, also when it comes to results of any tests it would only be confirmed to the childs mother. But i might have sorted my problem out but it still doesn't solve the issue of who would be joint custodian to the baby if the mother does'nt  get along or have support of her parents


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## Thirsty (4 Aug 2007)

Merzie, you will find a lot of useful, accurate, information and support from Treoir, the website is www.treoir.ie.


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## merzie (5 Aug 2007)

Kildrought said:


> Merzie, you will find a lot of useful, accurate, information and support from Treoir, the website is www.treoir.ie.


 
Hi 
I checked this website out its very useful, it answers alot of questions regarding birth certificates , Parental rights , If anyone else had any doubt regarding these issues, this site will help, thanks Kildrought


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