# How can there be so many uninsured motorists ?



## MrEarl (26 Dec 2016)

Hello,

Can someone please explain to me how there is apparently over 150,000 motorists in Ireland with no insurance cover ?


As I understand it, every car owner is on a register.
Also, as I understand it, when someone tries to pay their road tax, the need their motor insurance policy.
So, am I correct in understanding that:

We also have over 150,000 private motorists driving around with no motor insurance (if it's less, then how did they pay their road tax, without a current motor insurance policy) ?
Ireland in the 21st centuary is unable to run a simple electronic comparison to check the register of car owners with a list of motor insurance policies, to see who does and who does not have motor insurance, then take the obvious follow up action ?

What am I missing here ?


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## amtc (26 Dec 2016)

Eh...they didn't pay their road tax...

I'm aware of people photocopying both.


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## Monbretia (26 Dec 2016)

You don't need motor insurance to pay your road tax online anyway, don't know about if you go into the office.  You can put in any random numbers and it works, it is not linked to any system that will check.   I do it all the time because I can't be bothered going to find the policy number (I am renewing 3 monthly usually, for 3 different family cars), I put in the correct company and rough renewal date but just stick in 123456 for policy number.  You could just as easily click any company and put in any renewal once it's in the future.

Was advised of this 'fault' in the online system years ago by a garda!


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## Brendan Burgess (26 Dec 2016)

The road tax is a bit irrelevant. 

Surely the Gardai should be able to check the car registrations numbers against the insurance details. 

Anyone who is driving without insurance - car is confiscated, end of story. 

At the same time, we would have to take the cost of uninsured drivers onto the public purse and not just charge the insured drivers for it. 

And a huge cut in personal injuries and legal fees. 

Brendan


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## Monbretia (26 Dec 2016)

But there is no central register of car insurance policies and car registrations, if there was it could have been linked to the motor tax system.


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## twofor1 (26 Dec 2016)

A work colleague of mine recently got a fine and three penalty points in the post for no NCT.

He was not stopped, his car was photographed by one of the Garda vans on a public road and they knew there was no current NCT registered to that car, hence the fine and points.

Why can’t the same tactics be used for insurance ?

Surely it is not an insurmountable task to oblige all insurers to notify a central body of all registrations with current insurance policies.

I know there are reasons why there might not be an insurance policy registered to a specific car, in that case one should have to prove  insurance was in place, otherwise the  points / ban will apply.

When you think about it, the M50 can photograph tens of thousands of cars a day and apply fines where appropriate, why can’t the Garda ?

I accept this would not solve the problem completely as there are many cars out there with current insurance policies on them, but are being driven by a person not covered under that policy.


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## odyssey06 (26 Dec 2016)

There is already an industry wide database of no claim bonuses. The data would be available with some relatively minor work...

Why do we pay tax and insurance if both are legally required? Why not subsume one into the other...

Plus one wonders how many criminals are already using cloned plates. We need the IT solution for the average evader but dont always assume the reg is reliable.


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## mathepac (26 Dec 2016)

There was new legislation before the Seanad in the lead up to Christmas aimed at clearing the way for Garda use of automatic number plate recognition (ANPR) cameras  and roadside drug screening tests amongst other issues (20 kph speed-limit is one).

See Oirish Daily Mail Page 2 21/12/2016 (free copy courtesy of Supervalu otherwise I would't read the rag)

I wrote to Sean Molony and the Minister's Office seeking clarification on a number of technical issues but have so far received no responses (surprise surprise). Neither Molony nor anyone in the Minister's office seem competent to comment on such matters as demonstrated by the article itself.

There should be no issue merging two data-bases (or extracts / excerpts from them) to high-light registered vehicles which are uninsured or registered vehicles which are untaxed or unNct'd or other other anomalies, e.g. duplicated reg nos, duplicate VIN's, no registered owner, etc. Slightly tougher are the unregistered vehicles, or illegally imported vehicles with false plates. It is the simplest of simple jobs once data access is granted.

Similarly the holes in the motortax.ie system are very easily plugged. It just needs will and ignore the unions because there is too much at stake.

BTW all of the work I describe above could be undertaken and completed without ANPR legislation or equipment once the data-access issues are resolved. There is no in-car technology needed to resolve 99% of the problems of safety, lack of licences, revenue, illegal drivers, etc.


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## Brendan Burgess (26 Dec 2016)

odyssey06 said:


> Why do we pay tax and insurance if both are legally required? Why not subsume one into the other...



Interesting idea. Make the insurance companies collect the road tax. It would be very efficient.


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## RichInSpirit (27 Dec 2016)

Why so many uninsured drivers?
1). Maybe because some people can't afford insurance.
2). Because the odds of getting caught aren't too high.
3). Rebellious behaviour against authority and perceived inequality in society.
(I always have insurance myself, but I do understand some people not having it )


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## Delboy (27 Dec 2016)

Subsume road tax into the cost of fuel. Extra 1 or 2c per litre. Simple.

Insurance. I'm heading home to the West for a few days soon. When I'm down the local having a few pints, I bet I could walk out to the car park and high % of the older cars in particular won't have insurance. (But it's just as rampant IMO in parts of Dublin etc). There is no policing off the issue.

A high % will also drive home with a few beers on board, turning down offers of a lift. The nearest Gardai stations are over 20 miles away in any direction. If there is a checkpoint set up on a rare occassion anywhere nearyby, all in the pub will know about it within 5 minutes. But thats for a different thread


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## The Edge (27 Dec 2016)

RichInSpirit said:


> Why so many uninsured drivers?
> 1). Maybe because some people can't afford insurance.
> 2). Because the odds of getting caught aren't too high.
> 3). Rebellious behaviour against authority and perceived inequality in society.
> (I always have insurance myself, but I do understand some people not having it )



Yep. Motorists are treated as a cash cow by government. The current system is manifestly and very obviously unfair. It fails at a basic level.


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## mathepac (27 Dec 2016)

Treated as cash cows by private enterprise as well. If I didn't know the alternate routes, visiting my brother & his family could have cost me €12.80 in tolls for the return journey. It's a struggle for me to keep my car on the road so avoiding tolls, parking charges, parking fines and speeding / driving fines are my priorities. The outrageous part for me is we pay for enforcement of the law but we don't get it if the 150,000 figure is correct.


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## llgon (27 Dec 2016)

Delboy said:


> Subsume road tax into the cost of fuel. Extra 1 or 2c per litre. Simple.



I don't think it would be that simple. At least an extra 30c per litre I reckon, sending everyone in border areas to the North, a scenario that successive governments have been avoiding with their fuel taxation policies.


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## The Edge (27 Dec 2016)

mathepac said:


> Treated as cash cows by private enterprise as well. If I didn't know the alternate routes, visiting my brother & his family could have cost me €12.80 in tolls for the return journey. It's a struggle for me to keep my car on the road so avoiding tolls, parking charges, parking fines and speeding / driving fines are my priorities. The outrageous part for me is we pay for enforcement of the law but we don't get it if the 150,000 figure is correct.



Yes except that the tolling system strictly speaking isn't private enterprise. State contracts. Which I'm sure were all done in the proper manner, Ireland being well-known internationally for its lack of corruption. Ho ho ho. Merry Christmas!


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## mathepac (28 Dec 2016)

I was thinking of relocating to Lagos to avoid corruption.


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## MrEarl (28 Dec 2016)

Delboy said:


> Subsume road tax into the cost of fuel. Extra 1 or 2c per litre. Simple.



Must admit, I rather that suggestion to the one above where road tax would be collected as part of insurance premiums.  Also, it would mean those using more fuel, would pay more road tax, which seems a reasonably fair way to apply road tax.


Interesting that the general concensus is that there's a fairly straight forward technical solution to tracking down most, if not all, of the uninsured drivers and yet we don't do it (whether it's comparing the ownership of vehicles with insurance records, motor tax records etc).  

I can't beleive the people who designed the Motor Tax website set it up in such a way as to permit people to submit dummy numbers into the system and still renew their roadtax, its just facilitating those doing wrong.

Hopefully the minister with responsibility might take a lesson or two from this discussion thread....


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## MrEarl (28 Dec 2016)

mathepac said:


> ......I wrote to Sean Molony and the Minister's Office seeking clarification on a number of technical issues but have so far received no responses (surprise surprise). Neither Molony nor anyone in the Minister's office seem competent to comment on such matters as demonstrated by the article itself.



What Minister did you write to ?

Did you send a follow up referrring to your original communication and calling for a response ?  ... I found on a previous occassion that doing this, with a copy of my correspondence to a couple of the opposition TDs quickly got me the response I was waiting for


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## mathepac (28 Dec 2016)

MrEarl said:


> I can't beleive the people who designed the Motor Tax website set it up in such a way as to permit people to submit dummy numbers into the system and still renew their roadtax, its just facilitating those doing wrong....


Data protection, EU waffle, interdepartmental demarcation, laziness, don't care, "not our job Boss".

When you handed your insurance cert into the individual in the L.A. motor-tax office, s/he could check it was current by looking at the date and for the vehicle you wanted to tax by looking at reg no. I know, simplistic version, but bear with me.

To check validity online, motortax.ie would need the insurance companies to turn over their clients' motor-insurance details to a 3rd party. They can't do that or won't do that. They can do it in the UK and other jurisdictions, but not here, why not - unions / demarcation? Or was it a Government decision to allow uninsured cars to be taxed, maximising revenue while ducking an enforcement opportunity?


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## MrEarl (28 Dec 2016)

mathepac said:


> Data protection, EU waffle, interdepartmental demarcation, laziness, don't care, "not our job Boss".



Afraid you forgot one of the more regular Irish ones when you posted the list of possible reasons above ... "eh, we're a bit thick and not capable of foresight or joined-up thinking"  

I don't think validating a specific insurance policy number would be a breach in data protection, would it ?  ... sure, if there was a recognisable link provided by the insurance company to the individuals identidy then there's a breach but thats not what would be happening here, only the insurance policy number (which I believe is a random number) would be confirmed as being valid and active. The insurance companies would not be releasing details of individuals names, level of cover, DOBs etc.

Bottom line - with circa 150,000 uninsured motorists, this is a massive problem and something the government should have put right already (but in keeping with most other things, they probably won't do a single thing to fix the problem, they'll just kick the can down the road and leave it for someone else to fix )


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## Gordon Gekko (28 Dec 2016)

If you can verify someone's VAT number online without breaching data protection rules, then surely it can be done for someone's insurance number?


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## Monbretia (28 Dec 2016)

You'd probably need the insurance companies as well to go with a standard format for the policy numbers, set number of digits etc and obviously different ones for each company, at the moment there is no reason there could not be duplication same as there was with bank account numbers but the sort code differentiated them.  Maybe a sort code type system for the company and then the policy number.


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## Joe90 (28 Dec 2016)

A fair amount of that figure could be older people now in care, but who haven't disposed of  their vehicles, and younger people who have emigrated with the intention of returning. Plenty of crashed cars on blocks still as well....


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## RichInSpirit (28 Dec 2016)

I was asking one of my visiting uk "outlaws" about the UK situation on uninsured cars and he said there's about 2 million over there. So it's not only an Irish thing.


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## mathepac (29 Dec 2016)

According to https://data.gov.uk/dataset/driving-licence-data, there are

Driving licence holders  38,558,731
Provisl Licence holders    7,769,398
Total Licensed Drivers   46,328,129 in GB as of May 2016 (excludes NI which reports separately)

According to http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...w-many-uninsured-drivers-are-on-the-road.html

in 2013 there 1,200,000 uninsured drivers on the UK's roads. That would give a % of uninsured drivers as 2.59%

If someone wants to mess with other data-sets (finding them first of course) feel free to do so.

According to RSA we have a total of  2,764,069 licence/permit holders as of Dec 2015 of whom 150,000 are estimated to be uninsured. This gives a percentage of uninsured drivers of 5.43%, a situation that on the surface appears to be twice as bad as GB.


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## MrEarl (30 Dec 2016)

RichInSpirit said:


> ....So it's not only an Irish thing.



Putting aside Mathepac's great bit of research for a moment, the fact that there are issues outside of Ireland with motorists not having insurance ranks second to what goes on here in Ireland


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## trasneoir (30 Dec 2016)

Delboy said:


> Subsume road tax into the cost of fuel. Extra 1 or 2c per litre. Simple.


Not so simple. This would shift the balance of the tax burden from private individuals to industry - a tuck/van/taxi/rental burns a lot more diesel per year than a commuter car. It would also tend to promote cross-border fuel shopping and smuggling.




The Edge said:


> Yep. Motorists are treated as a cash cow by government. The current system is manifestly and very obviously unfair. It fails at a basic level.


A few years ago I would have agreed, but then I saw LA. 
Single-commuter cars, and the landscape they create, are a blight and an economic disaster.  
I can't think of a better way to discourage their ownership and use than tax.


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## MrEarl (3 Jan 2017)

trasneoir said:


> Not so simple. This would shift the balance of the tax burden from private individuals to industry - a tuck/van/taxi/rental burns a lot more diesel per year than a commuter car. It would also tend to promote cross-border fuel shopping and smuggling. ....



Shifting the balance of the tax burden onto those who use the roads more, seems entirely appropriate to me and while in many cases that might impact on commercial travelers, it is not exclusively hitting them.

As for the point about fuel smuggling, additional resources would be freed up if we changed how motor tax is collected and administered.  These resources could be redirected to work with customs and excise to combat the fuel smugglers.  

I would expect that currency differences, proximity to petrol stations in N.I. and the UK tax system would limit the cross-border fuel shopping you refer to.


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## The Edge (6 Jan 2017)

trasneoir said:


> A few years ago I would have agreed, but then I saw LA.



I've only spent a day in LA and was as part of a holiday so can't really comment but everything I've read/heard confirms the stereotype. 



trasneoir said:


> Single-commuter cars, and the landscape they create, are a blight and an economic disaster.



Completely agree. 



trasneoir said:


> I can't think of a better way to discourage their ownership and use than tax.




Tbh, Kuala Lumpur in Malaysia and some Chinese and Indian cities make LA look like paradise. But I'm not sure if I agree with your view that tax is the best or only way to discourage their ownership....it doesn't seem to have worked in Ireland, where the obsession with single-commuter car ownership and the status symbology around driving a decent motor is as strong as ever.


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## trasneoir (7 Jan 2017)

The Edge said:


> But I'm not sure if I agree with your view that tax is the best or only way to discourage their ownership.


I'm not sure either, but I know that when you reach into somebody's pocket you usually get their attention 

We've got a really destructive habit, and almost nobody notices the full extent of the harm/cost. I know people who spend 500-600 hours per year commuting, and their only cost that they _notice _is the cost to their wallet. Not their time, not the infrastructure, not their health. We need them to notice, and we want it to sting enough that they do something about it.

I totally accept that there might be more effective/targeted ways to charge people - I like road pricing and congestion charges. There's also lots we could do to make the alternatives more attractive, obvious, and widely available.


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## odyssey06 (8 Jan 2017)

We shouldn't forget the absolute joke penalties handed out for not having insurance... How can you not give someone a custodial sentence for this???

_Uninsured driver reversed towards garda patrol car: A young man who stopped in the middle of a dual carriageway, switched off his car lights and reversed towards an oncoming garda patrol car has been given a three-month suspended sentence for a second no-insurance offence... Judge McHugh imposed the suspended sentence and disqualified him from driving for four years for having no insurance, and convicted and fined him €250 for the driving without due care and attention offence._
http://www.herald.ie/news/courts/uninsured-driver-reversed-towards-garda-patrol-car-35348501.html


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## DirectDevil (12 Jan 2017)

There is always a practical problem about verifying valid insurance in relation to the driver of a vehicle as distinct from the vehicle itself.

I am stopped by a Garda doing a random check. I produce a current certificate of insurance and my equally valid current licence. The Garda will see those as being in order and send me on my way. The trouble is that I may not be insured. Suppose that I deliberately misrepresented a material fact to obtain the motor insurance. I have not really got valid insurance and when my misrepresentation is eventually discovered it will be voided by the insurer.

My point is that there is a superficial randomness about insurance checks and they are not all that they are cracked up to be.

On the wider point, my experience is that there are two general classes of uninsured motorists. There are those who knowingly and deliberately commit the offence. There are those who commit the offence unknowingly and innocently. In the latter case although there may be no valid insurance it is possible for such a driver to be acquitted of the offence of driving with no insurance.

On a side point, I as quite disturbed to see a recent report that around 8,000 people were driving whilst disqualified. Every one of those must, by definition, also be driving without insurance as motor insurance is not valid if the driver is disqualified.


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## MrEarl (13 Jan 2017)

DirectDevil said:


> ....On a side point, I as quite disturbed to see a recent report that around 8,000 people were driving whilst disqualified. Every one of those must, by definition, also be driving without insurance as motor insurance is not valid if the driver is disqualified.



Is it fair to assume that those 8,000 who have been disqualified are also on a list somewhere ? ... if so, then surely that list could easily be obtained and random spot checks done on an ongoing basis, to see who is and who is not obeying the law.



This entire situation regarding so many drivers behind the steering wheel of a car while banned, or the thousands driving without insurance is just typical of all thats wrong with Ireland... just about anything you care to name is flawed or corrupt !


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## DirectDevil (16 Jan 2017)

odyssey06 said:


> We shouldn't forget the absolute joke penalties handed out for not having insurance... How can you not give someone a custodial sentence for this???
> 
> _Uninsured driver reversed towards garda patrol car: A young man who stopped in the middle of a dual carriageway, switched off his car lights and reversed towards an oncoming garda patrol car has been given a three-month suspended sentence for a second no-insurance offence... Judge McHugh imposed the suspended sentence and disqualified him from driving for four years for having no insurance, and convicted and fined him €250 for the driving without due care and attention offence._
> http://www.herald.ie/news/courts/uninsured-driver-reversed-towards-garda-patrol-car-35348501.html



Some people just cannot help themselves in their rigid insistence on being utterly indifferent to what is required of them.

This reminds me of a classic case with which I had some dealings a few years ago. The driver of the car had no insurance or road tax [pre NCT days] or driving licence . He was hopelessly drunk. What did he do ? He drove right up the back end of a marked Garda squad car that was stationary, in broad daylight, at a red traffic light. He subsequently failed the attitude test by completely ignoring the court date for the hearing of the multiple summonses. He turned up in court alright but only after the Gardaí found him, arrested him and put him before the court. He was remanded in custody pending trial but got no jail time in the end by way of punishment.

Some of these people just do not care and you would have to meet them to believe how bad their attitude is.


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## odyssey06 (16 Jan 2017)

Yeah... before we look at new measures i am not convinced full use is being made of whats already available.


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## mathepac (16 Jan 2017)

I firmly believe that most of the problems in this area are because of lack of enforcement using existing laws and technology. Rocket science it is not!


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## losttheplot (16 Jan 2017)

That's Ireland. Where we make rules and create legislation to solve all our problems but there's uproar if the rules are ever enforced. "It's not fair, I was only a little bit above the speed limit...I only parked there for two minutes...insurance was only a few days out.....etc"


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## odyssey06 (16 Jan 2017)

Thats because there is an expectation that the rules arent going to be enforced... so people ignore them. Chicken and egg... if we had less rules but actually enforced them, then people would know not to break the rules.


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## Delboy (17 Jan 2017)

The law that was brought in last year about smoking in the car with kids present. 2 penalty points. A lot of talk at the time about whether it would work but the do gooders insisted we needed it.
There has been ZERO cases brought under this. Unenforcable say the Gardai.


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## losttheplot (17 Jan 2017)

We should have a feedback loop for new legislation after say 2 yrs, or another suitable timeframe. A check on the effectiveness of the change. No doubt some politician will claim if there have been no convictions then people have got the message.


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## KayKew (14 Apr 2017)

DirectDevil said:


> On the wider point, my experience is that there are two general classes of uninsured motorists. There are those who knowingly and deliberately commit the offence. There are those who commit the offence unknowingly and innocently. In the latter case although there may be no valid insurance it is possible for such a driver to be acquitted of the offence of driving with no insurance.



Yes Direct Devil - you are right!  I belong to the second category.  After about 25 years driving, without a single claim on my insurance policy, having never driven uninsured etc. I was stopped at a garda checkpoint recently and was absolutely stunned to discover that I had unknowingly let my insurance policy lapse by about 2 months.  I really couldn't believe it and went home convinced I would find the insurance disc and certificate there somewhere.  In fact I have no recollection of receiving renewal notification in the post, as I have done every year so far, but apparently it was sent out.  I am now 'facing the music'.  My insurer has refused to insure me.  My broker has advised me to send them 3 letters of refusal from other insurers, assuming they won't insure me either, which has turned out to be the case. My most recent insurer will then be obliged to give me a quote, but I dread to think how high it might be. As it stands, I may well get a summons, have to appear in court for the first time in my life and be fined up to €5000 and get 5 penalty points.


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## MrEarl (15 Apr 2017)

KayKew said:


> ....In fact I have no recollection of receiving renewal notification in the post, as I have done every year so far, but apparently it was sent out. ......



That is a very unusual thing to have had happen - with brokers earning on renewals, insurance companies trying to secure your repeat custom etc. I would have expected you to not only receive the written quote to renew, but also a few follow up phone calls, text messages and emails over the course of the 4 week period running up to the expiry date (and possibly even a few days past that date).  I know I certainly get plenty of reminders every year and to the best of my knowledge, so does everyone that I know who has various forms of insurance.

Out of interest, did your (former) insurance company or your broker indicate that they tried to contact you, to remind you to renew ?


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## Monbretia (15 Apr 2017)

I get my renewal by post each year but have never got phone calls/texts/emails from the company running up to the renewal date and I always leave it until the last minute to renew or move.

I look after my father's car insurance with a different company and they send the renewal and one reminder a few days before the date, again no calls/texts/emails etc.

I'm not sure every company works like that, I have never come across it.  In fact I often think my car insurer couldn't care less whether I renew with them or not, very much a take it or leave it attitude I find.


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## MrEarl (15 Apr 2017)

Hello,

For me, that is bad business and very strange - the likes of 123.ie, Chill.ie etc all "hound" you to renew ....


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## delfio (15 Apr 2017)

Kaykew

That's very tough luck, maybe if your get yourself a good solicitor, it might help on the court day, fingers crossed you get sympathetic judge.

If your renewal quote is in the thousands, consider renting a car, might be cheaper.


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## KayKew (15 Apr 2017)

MrEarl said:


> Out of interest, did your (former) insurance company or your broker indicate that they tried to contact you, to remind you to renew ?


Yes MrEarl - my broker said that renewal notices had been posted out approx. 4 weeks before the renewal date and a week or so after it.  There was also an email sent approx 1 week after the renewal date - but as I had never received such reminders by email before, and did not have the renewal date in my mind, I did not go looking for that email and didn't see it until I went searching back through all emails after being stopped at the checkpoint.  I know it may seem far fetched, but there are still some people out there who have limited or sporadic internet access and who may not actually use email etc on a regular basis.  As for the renewal notices sent by post, I still have had no success at all in finding either of them, despite having such notices from earlier years still in my files (I mean the kind of files that are kept in a filing cabinet!!). 

What may have happened, at least in relation to the first renewal notice, is that at around the time it was sent out, one of my dogs suddenly developed an extreme behaviour problem called 'separation anxiety', which I know probably sounds laughable to those of you not familiar with it, but it is actually quite serious, as it essentially means the dog can no longer be left unattended in the house.  Basically when I went back at work after the Christmas holidays, she started to literally go berserk and really tear the place asunder. 

On one such occasion, a person who had dropped in to check on things while I was at work discovered two whole shelves of books pulled out and several books, including a very large encyclopedia, shredded and spread all over the floor etc. along with a lot of other paperwork that had been in the room.  It was an unbelievable mess. On that occasion or possibly on a subsequent similar occasion, some tidying up took place while I was still at work, which, now that I look back, may have resulted in an unopened envelope being put up 'out of harm's way', where, to date, I haven't been able to find it.  As to the second letter, I really do not have any recollection of ever seeing it, and as it would have been telling me my insurance had expired, I would definitely have paid attention to it and acted on it immediately. 

While all of this is true, I am slightly worried that if I mention it to the judge in a court, he/she may think I am treating him/her like an idiot, with an excuse similar to the classic 'the dog ate my homework'!! 

When/if I get a quote from my most recent insurance company, I will post that information here for general interest.  I also would hope to let participants on this thread know what the outcome of my court appearance is, whenever that happens.  If nothing else, perhaps I will succeed in terrifying anyone who might potentially commit the same oversight that I did into taking precautions such as posting notices all over their house (out of reach of dogs) with the renewal date written out in very large print, putting stickers on the steering wheel of the car, tying knots in handkerchiefs (remember those??), putting their watch (things people used to use to tell the time in the 'olden days') on the other wrist etc.

Thank you to those who responded to my post, and particularly those of you who expressed some sympathy with me and my plight.  With the best will in the world, people do sometimes make genuine mistakes and forget things and even though the consequences must be faced, a bit of humanity along the way does help!


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## mathepac (16 Apr 2017)

"The dog ate my homework" A diary, a desk calendar, a wall calendar with anote in red capitals "GET CAR INSURANCE QUOTE"  two weeks prior to renewal might be a more practical and useful reminder than knots in hankies.

For important matters like this I have long ago ceased to rely on prompts from others to take action.


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## KayKew (16 Apr 2017)

Wall calendar now up.  Unless I can see things right in front of me, and clearly visible, I tend to forget they are there and even a diary might not work (I would probably lose it) but I will try that and the desk calendar idea too.  Thanks mathepac.


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## delfio (16 Apr 2017)

mathepac said:


> "The dog ate my homework" A diary, a desk calendar, a wall calendar with anote in red capitals "GET CAR INSURANCE QUOTE"  two weeks prior to renewal might be a more practical and useful reminder than knots in hankies



Everyone has their own system for remembering things, very hard these days to keep track of everything, emails, text messages, smart phone alerts, I look at them and I say I must remember to do that and that then it goes straight out of my mind while dealing with the next distraction.  I missed my house insurance renewal a few years back for a whole month due to being preoccupied with other stuff going on. Nothing is easy anymore even though there is no excuse for it.


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## DirectDevil (19 Apr 2017)

Just an additional observation.

Motor insurance policies are annual contracts. Unless there have been recent changes I have always understood that insurers are not required to invite renewal of a policy or to even issue a renewal notice. That being the case it is easy enough for a person to overlook the matter. Not everybody has all singing and all dancing reminder gizmos 

I rather fear that OP may be the victim of a systems blip and that he may well not have received his renewal notice (i.e. not actually sent out). It is surprising to realise how highly systemised operators can fail in basic paperwork.


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## dereko1969 (19 Apr 2017)

DirectDevil said:


> Just an additional observation.
> 
> Motor insurance policies are annual contracts. Unless there have been recent changes I have always understood that insurers are not required to invite renewal of a policy or to even issue a renewal notice. That being the case it is easy enough for a person to overlook the matter. *Not everybody has all singing and all dancing reminder gizmos *
> 
> I rather fear that OP may be the victim of a systems blip and that he may well not have received his renewal notice (i.e. not actually sent out). It is surprising to realise how highly systemised operators can fail in basic paperwork.


Yes but they all do have the little paper disc in the window of their car with the end-date on it.......


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## mathepac (19 Apr 2017)

@DirectDevil, Incorrect. Some insurers offer biennial contracts and,  according to this source, http://www.citizensinformation.ie/e.../motor_tax_and_insurance/motor_insurance.html

"Renewing your motor insurance

Under Non-Life Insurance (Provision of Information) (Renewal of Policy of Insurance) Regulations 2007 (SI No. 74/2007) *your motor insurance company must issue your insurance renewal notice not less than 15 working days before the date of expiry of your insurance policy. It is also required to include with the notice your no claims discount certificate*. You will need this certificate if you want to renew your motor insurance with a different insurance company."

The OP is not a victim, just a person who relies on others for reminders of important events.


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## DirectDevil (20 Apr 2017)

mathepac said:


> @DirectDevil, Incorrect. Some insurers offer biennial contracts and,  according to this source, http://www.citizensinformation.ie/e.../motor_tax_and_insurance/motor_insurance.html
> 
> "Renewing your motor insurance
> 
> ...



Thanks for that.

Link http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2007/si/74/made/en/print

Is that requirement mandatory for every possible renewal scenario ?


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## mathepac (20 Apr 2017)

No idea I'm afraid. I don't read SIs where I can avoid it, not being a leagal eagle or sparrow even.


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## KayKew (28 Apr 2017)

A further update on the renewal notice situation.  Having been given the very clear impression from my insurance broker that a renewal notice had been sent out a month before my renewal date, and following on at least one or more phone conversations with them in which I clearly referred to having looked all over the house for that renewal notice but having found no sign of it and repeated my home address more than once to make absolutely sure they had sent it to the right address etc.  it has now turned out that they never sent me any renewal notice in the post.  

This only became clear when I asked them to send me a copy of all renewal notices sent to me, and was told that they had sent nothing by post, but only sent me a single renewal reminder by email, a month before the renewal date, and a second one a week after my insurance had expired.  I didn't see the second email until after I had been stopped at the garda checkpoint, when I went searching for any sign of any communication from my broker around the time renewal was due.  I still have found no sign at all of the first email they say they sent me.  

I have looked in the Junk mail box etc. and while I found no sign of it there either, interestingly I did find two emails from other insurance companies I had contacted after being stopped at the checkpoint, and both of these messages (one from Quote Devil and one from coverinaclick.ie) had been treated as spam and were due to be deleted, without my ever having seen them, were it not for the fact that I was looking for any emails from my insurance broker.  The brokers say that I must have opted to receive renewal notices by email rather than in the post, but I find this really hard to believe as I sometimes have great difficulty getting an internet connection at home and do not at all necessarily check all emails on a regular basis (hence my discovery of the email that was sent a week after my insurance had expired).  How can it be proven one way or the other that I would have made such a request?  

Anyway - that's the situation as it stands at the moment.  My last insurance premium before all of this was €355.  By last Wednesday, after many inquiries to various insurance companies over more than a week, the only quote I could get was €2950, which I have now paid, having been advised that the only other quote I was going to be offered, if I produced three letters of refusal for my last insurer, was likely to be between €5000 and €10000.  I have written the renewal date for next year up on my wall chart. Better start saving now!!


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## losttheplot (28 Apr 2017)

Would it be worth contacting the insurance ombudsman about not receiving the notice.


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