# Building a house: Using a 'non' architect (found on net) for design



## z101 (15 Feb 2010)

We are looking at building a house and like a design by a company we found on the net. 

They are not architects but seem to have a lot of experience in drawing up their designs and going for planning even producing a book of designs.

One problem is, due to a change made last year, such people cannot sign off for stage mortgage drawdowns anymore. 

Does anyone have experience with such a company as there seem to be alot such companies out there? 

Is not been an RIAI architect a problem?

Any pointers?


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## mf1 (16 Feb 2010)

1. You can do whatever you like. If you are spending your own money ( not the bank's) and you never intend to sell. 

2. If, however, you are borrowing money from a bank then they will not release funds unless the work is certified. Certificates can be from a number of qualified, insured people. Anyone certifying, though, will need quite a bit of involvement - you cannot expect someone to take the risk of certifying without being properly paid.  

3. If you are ever selling then your purchaser will need to know that the works have been carried out in compliance with planning permission and building regulations. They will need Certificates. You will not be able to sell without certificates.

mf


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## Complainer (16 Feb 2010)

mf1 said:


> 1. You can do whatever you like. If you are spending your own money ( not the bank's) and you never intend to sell.


Not true - You are legally obliged to comply with building regulations regardless.


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## threebedsemi (16 Feb 2010)

Read the other posts regarding the benefits of using an architect to design your home to your specific needs and with the specifics of the site in mind before making a decision. Architects fees have reduced dramatically in the past year, and while they will always be greater than the ready-made alternative, even a reasonable architect will add much more value to your home that the cost of their fees.
Ensure that whoever lodges the planning application, and the person who carries out the site suitability testing re. effluent treatment, has adequate professional indemnity insurance in place.
DO NOT assume that you will never have to sell the house, I can't count the number of people who I have met in the past year who ignored planning conditions and building regulations at the time of building, and are now oblidged to 'cross that bridge' because they have come to it.


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## z101 (16 Feb 2010)

There seem to be lots of people such as architectural technicians doing design and drawings for planning submissions.

It goes without saying that regulations have to be met as you wont get planning permission if not. Just because perons is not in RIAI does not suggest conditions wont be met.

Regulations are constantly changing... Do the regulations at the time of planning permission apply or when you go to build, which could be 2 years later.?


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## Complainer (16 Feb 2010)

Ceatharlach said:


> It goes without saying that regulations have to be met as you wont get planning permission if not.


Not true. Building regs and planning regs are actually fairly seperate. Planning regs are much more general, and don't really go into any detail as to what happens inside the building. Building regs (well the Technical Guidance Documents) are fairly prescriptive. They both have separate enforcement processes.



Ceatharlach said:


> Just because perons is not in RIAI does not suggest conditions wont be met.


Just because the nurse is not a doctor, etc etc etc.


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## z101 (16 Feb 2010)

Again..Just because perons is not in RIAI does not suggest conditions wont be met. 

I dont see your point complainer. Are you suggesting the job would not be done properly if they are not an RIAI architect? Not everything is a conspiracy..


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## threebedsemi (16 Feb 2010)

Planning legislation is completely different from Building Regulations leglislation, and they are comprised of different suites of Statutory Instruments.  Planning officials are not oblidged to check for building regulation complance.
The building regulations in force at the time of lodgement of the planning application are generally those which are applicable to the building applied for, with some allowances and 'transitional arrangements' usually in place. Current regulations will not be applied retrospectively.
Planning drawings will not usually indicate complance with the building regulations, nor are they oblidged to. While some elements of the building reglations will be evident from planning drawings (such as fire escape windows from bedrooms- Part B, and perhaps disabled access/facilities and stair design - Parts M and K) it will not be possible to ascertain if the building complies with the rest of the building regulations from these drawings. 

Thus the advice often given here to invest in a decent set of working drawings and building specification post planning.  Refer to the self-build section of this forum for some good advice in this regard.

Regarding getting 'drawings done up' there is no law stopping someone from doing them up themselves if they feel that way inclined. You generally get what you pay for, and it is rather staggering that people (and im speaking of the irish nation in general here) expect to have a house (the largest investment of ones life) designed for half they price that they are going to spend on a couch for said house.


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## Complainer (16 Feb 2010)

Ceatharlach said:


> I dont see your point complainer. Are you suggesting the job would not be done properly if they are not an RIAI architect? Not everything is a conspiracy..


Do you reckon there is any difference between the quality of design you will get from a qualified, skilled architect, and the quality of design that you will get from a technician (bearing in mind that in the day job, the technician almost certainly works under the supervision of a qualified architect).


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## z101 (16 Feb 2010)

I know where your coming from, but I have spoken with some people in the know including an employed architect who feel there are other options other than using an architect that does not mean incompetence or lact of understanding of what is required.


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## z101 (16 Feb 2010)

Not every architect is a member of the RIAI. Allowing for the vista of Irish house designs out there already, if you were talking about a bespoke design I would agree. But we are not.


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## lawrose (18 Feb 2010)

I think if you are going to choose a design out of a book, you need to make sure that the design suits the site.  Orientation should be a major consideration.  The design you like might not be suitable for your site at all.

Personally I find there are good architectural technicians and good architects - and a few bad ones in each group too.  The best thing is to ring a few of each, get ideas of costs, make sure they are agreeable to coming out to view the site first - that's pretty essential in my opinion.  

As for Certs of Compliance, the Law Society "prefers" that architects or engineers are used.  However, in practice, many architectural technicians with more than 10 years experience (and with the necessary professional indemnity insurance) prepare certs, which are usually accepted by banks and any future purchasers solicitors.  It might help if the Architectural Technician is a registered RIAI member themself (there is a separate member group for technicians in the RIAI).

I know from personal experience that any technicians I've come across seem equally knowledgeable as architects in relation to Building Regs, etc.


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## onq (18 Feb 2010)

threebedsemi said:


> Planning legislation is completely different from Building Regulations leglislation, and they are comprised of different suites of Statutory Instruments.  Planning officials are not oblidged to check for building regulation complance.
> The building regulations in force at the time of lodgement of the planning application are generally those which are applicable to the building applied for, with some allowances and 'transitional arrangements' usually in place. Current regulations will not be applied retrospectively.
> <snip>



+1 what threebedsemi says and I'd like to add to this if I may.

People apply for permissions on a certain date.
The design should reflect the regulations in force at that time and for the foreseeable future insofar as they may need to be accommodated at planning stage.

A common consequence of this is the requirement for larger toilets, level or ramped approach, 15mm threshold, and minimum door and hallway dimensions for main entrance and internal room access.

Some of these requirements are too small to show up on planning drawings [the 15mm threshold)].
Some can be changed on site using Section 4 (1) (h) provisions [internal changes].
But the larger toilet is a difficulty that may need a complete re-jig of the plans.

You may have to move the house back on a tight site to achieve the ramped approach.
This latter consequence is not exempted development.

So, permissions should reflect the current and foreseeable regulations.
Some regulations have their applicability tied back to application dates.
However we are in a period where people who have obtained permission are wating for years before carrying out the development and this could create problems later on.

On the day you go to site, which could be up to 4 years later, you need to do a complete assessment of what Building Regulations apply to your permission on that date.

If in doubt, consult your local building control officer and in general work to the latest, current standards where you can do so, because it will tend to improve the quality, usability saleability of your  property going forward.

For what its worth

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent persons should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at hand.
My best advice is that you should retain a competent building professional to advise you on these matters.


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## onq (18 Feb 2010)

Ceatharlach said:


> We are looking at building a house and like a design by a company we found on the net.
> 
> They are not architects but seem to have a lot of experience in drawing up their designs and going for planning even producing a book of designs.
> 
> ...



Houses aren't cars or pieces of furniture.
There is no "shop" to stop at which ticks all the boxes.
If you're building a new house you owe it to yourself to build what YOU want, not just some "everyman" house that may or may not suit you.
This is where your competent designer comes in.

Other posts have mentioned orientation and other questions arise


Does the design adequately address with the views from your site?
Does it balance this with the need to avail of solar gain and energy conservation?
Will it make a good impression on the approach?
Does it comply with local development plans requirements.
Is it in a scenic area with design guidelines in the development plan .
Is it in an architectural conservation area zoning.
Do you know if these things apply?

If the answer to these things is "I'm not sure" then you need the advice of a competent building professional.

Others have commented on whether you should use an architect or a technician to design your building.
There is a degree of overlap between architects and technicians when it comes to house design.

It really depends on the level of design input you want.
Many technicians churn out drawings of other peoples designs.
A significant portion of them go on to become architects themselves.
Some architects whose design ability is the least of their endowments.
They may be better at wooing clients, or running a multidisciplinary project.

The really important thing is that you should "get on with" with person you retain.
I mean you should understand each other and communicate well, not go out for pints.

Although that can sometimes help - or so I'm told!

------------------------------------

HOWEVER...

Some of the websites I have looked at showing "pattern plans" suggest that the person behind it is a CAD draughtsman.

Two years in a CAD course inPearse College followed by twelve months in an architects practice copying construction details from architectural technicians and they set up a firm with "plans".

I would be very wary of using a "pattern plans" house on any level.
I would not trust the interpretation of local planning or building regulations to someone trained as a draughtsman.
Ask to see evidence of formal qualifications, always ask to see examples of their built work AND talk to their former clients to learn about the service offered particularly in dealnig with issues arising during the build.
Steer well clear of people who don't take their own work to site or who leave it to the contractor to determine the compliance of the building - defects that aren't discovered cannot be acted upon -  this means the design is never improved.

------------------------------------

This may not be the yes/no answer you requried, but private house design is a complex matter.
Even a brief gander at "Room Outside" or "Grand Designs" will show you this, but the rewards are fantastic.

The difference in cost of materials between a habitable "shed" and an award winning house might be 25-50%.
[depending on whether or not you let yourself get carried away with the copper roof (!)].
Typically the structure is only part of the the cost - usually 30%.
A possible costs breakdown might be; -

30% Structure
30% Services
30% Fit-Out
10% Design
So you can see pushing the boat out will only affect total cost so much.
Don't deny yourself the opportunity to do something unique with your money.
You'll be paying out good money for bricks and mortar [or timber frame] anyway.
Theres nothing to stopp you from taking the high road  doing something amazing!

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent persons should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at hand.
My best advice is that you should retain a competent building professional to advise you on these matters.


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## z101 (18 Feb 2010)

Thanks ONQ for your thorough as always answer. We really like what we are looking at and the company has a lot of experience with local planners, builders/tradespeople and a lot of one off house's built in the area (and nationwide). They can produce a tonne of testimony's and references needed. Changes are beens made as per our needs. We dont want to pay 8-10k on an architect I am afraid however.


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## onq (18 Feb 2010)

You're welcome for the advice.
You've dodged all the questions I've asked.
This suggests you are "theirs" because of a price.

My "price" for my advice is that you answer the following questions:



What's their going rate?
Do they conduct periodic inspections?
Will they supply compliant workign drawnigs?
Will they certify not only monies due but that the work is compliant?
What do you think you getting for the money you're paying?

ONQ.


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## z101 (20 Feb 2010)

I wont discuss what they are charging.
They will do inspections to both ensure compliance and for payments. They supply compliant working drawings (is there a belief that can only be suplied by actual arctitect?), and I have check with a couple of builders who have been around for years and continue to be pretty busy due to their reputations. They say they are an excellent company to work with. I am getting what we want and require for our money.


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## mf1 (20 Feb 2010)

"Will they certify not only monies due but that the work is compliant?"

"As for Certs of Compliance, the Law Society "prefers" that architects or engineers are used. However, in practice, many architectural technicians with more than 10 years experience (and with the necessary professional indemnity insurance) prepare certs, which are usually accepted by banks and any future purchasers solicitors. It might help if the Architectural Technician is a registered RIAI member themself (there is a separate member group for technicians in the RIAI)."

+ 1. 

You will not be able to get a mortgage, or organise drawdowns, or ever sell without adequate certification. 

mf


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