# Weather Disrupts Bus Services



## DublinTexas (1 Jan 2010)

Seriously, our government tells us that we all should prepare for the weather changes due to the “global warming” and our own government can’t even get public transportation up and running in the capital because of some minor snow. 
Weather in Dublin, Temperatures below 0 C everywhere, some icy conditions and some snow, no public transport.

Weather in Stockholm, temperatures around -7 degrees with light snow shower, public transport working fine.

Weather in Munich, temperatures around -5 degrees with heavy snow, and you guessed it, public transport working fine.

If the roads are so bad, why not put some of the resources our government has onto the street to clean them up and make them safe? 

How can we be so unprepared for a weather change that our government warns us for years now, unless some dimwits in the government thought that “global warming” means it gets warmer only? 

We were always a banana republic but seriously, we are getting more and more like a 3rd world country every day.


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## RonanC (1 Jan 2010)

+1 Your totally right. 

I couldnt believe that a major road close to where I live was like a skating rink at 3:00 in the afternoon! The Councils are blaming a lack of funds for the lack of gritting on our roads. 

So the question is, what exactly are we paying road tax for?


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## micmclo (2 Jan 2010)

You pay zero in road tax, same as everyone, hurray 

Any tax you do pay isn't ringfenced to the roads, it goes to general funding and can be spent anywhere
And it seems the councils have very little left, many council are millions in debt


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## DublinTexas (2 Jan 2010)

Isn’t it wonderful, the road tax goes to the general budget despite its name, just like the 10€ we have to pay for the pleasure of leaving the country goes into the same pod.

Councils could stop wasting millions very easy but no, instead they continue to disappoint the people living in their areas by not being able to provide basic services. Instead they waste money for example to ensure not private competition can collect glass waste from home.

Well today Dublin Bus seems to be able to provide some services, even if it’s limited in some area due to conditions in housing estates and high level areas. However their definition of high level is seriously funny.

In any case, our government better starts investing in some snow plows, street gritting equipment and a plan to deal with this kind of weather because according to their own propaganda about “global warming” this weather will become a regular feature and I seriously don’t think that people are going to be happy if we have to shut down the country regular because of conditions other countries might call a light snow fall.


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## Complainer (3 Jan 2010)

DublinTexas said:


> Isn’t it wonderful, the road tax goes to the general budget despite its name


There is no 'road tax' in Ireland. I guess you are thinking about motor tax. The vast majority of taxes are not ring-fences, i.e. the Govt spends where it thinks fit, which seems fairly sensible to me in principle.

I guess that a bit part of the problem for Dublin Bus is that a lot of their routes go through/along housing estates which would not normally be gritted by the council.

There are some practical questions to consider here. We rarely get this kind of extreme weather, so there is a real question about how much we should invest in preparing for this kind of weather. Do we really want to spent a huge amount of money to prepare for these unusual events? In Stockholm, it would obviously make sense to be fully prepared for these conditions, but we are not Stockholm.


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## RonanC (3 Jan 2010)

from the Citizens Advice website



> The revenue from this tax is used to maintain and upgrade the road network in Ireland.


 
So should we equally fail to prepare for flooding like we do for cold weather? I am fed up as a taxpayer paying for services that are not provided.


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## Galwaygirl (3 Jan 2010)

> So should we equally fail to prepare for flooding like we do for cold weather? I am fed up as a taxpayer paying for services that are not provided


 
I didn't see much evidence of being prepared for floods in North Galway, our regional road was closed for over 2 weeks and many national roads around Galway were impassable for a week or so. 

My own local road is constantly a mesh of potholes which are repaired by dumping a mix of gravel and tar into them which lasts until the next lot of bad rain. During 2009 they were 'repaired' 4 times and only when the craters were almost 2 ft wide and 6 inches deep!

absoultely agree about being fed up paying for non services!


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## RonanC (3 Jan 2010)

Galwaygirl, thats what I mean, we fail to prepare as a nation for floods but with the recent devastation seen in Cork and Galway and other counties, flood prevention will be at the top of the list for a lot of politicians. Preparing for poor weather in general should be at the top of everyones lists. 

There was a couple of cm's of snow in Dublin but for some reason there was no gritting and public transport came to a complete standstill.


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## Teatime (3 Jan 2010)

Complainer said:


> There are some practical questions to consider here. We rarely get this kind of extreme weather, so there is a real question about how much we should invest in preparing for this kind of weather. Do we really want to spent a huge amount of money to prepare for these unusual events? In Stockholm, it would obviously make sense to be fully prepared for these conditions, but we are not Stockholm.


 
+1

I think the councils (Galway/Clare/Limerick at least) have done alright in keeping the main roads ice-free. Some of the conditions this Xmas were extraordinary with rain turning to sheet ice on impact with roads, even gritted roads. I've had a few slow trips on dodgy roads but it was ok. To be honest I would rather 3/4 weeks of this weather every year than 3/4 weeks of cold wet weather. I think if councils were overspending on gritters and grit, people would be complaining about that.


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## Firefly (4 Jan 2010)

RonanC said:


> I couldnt believe that a major road close to where I live was like a skating rink at 3:00 in the afternoon! The Councils are blaming a lack of funds for the lack of gritting on our roads.


 
The guys working in the council are paid from 9-5, so any gritting should be done during this time. The only variable cost then should be grit and petrol/diesel. Surely we can afford this?


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## Complainer (4 Jan 2010)

Firefly said:


> The guys working in the council are paid from 9-5


Unless of course, those guys have left the council and haven't been replaced due to the embargo;

see [broken link removed]


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## Caveat (4 Jan 2010)

I've no complaints re gritting/road conditions etc near me - living in a rural area the potential is probably worse for untreated roads but no real problems. Maybe we've been a bit lucky. 

Public transport almost completely unaffected - but mainly because we virtually don't have any.


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## JP1234 (4 Jan 2010)

We set off from Derry yesterday at 9am and managed to drive to Wexford without encountering any real ice or snow, the only time we did was when we stopped off in Liffey Valley. Even when we hit Wexford Town there was no evidence of disruption that we had heard so much about. We left Derry so early as we had expected the journey to take all day given the reports on Met.ie and AA Roadwatch, as it was we were back in our house by 3pm!


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## Firefly (4 Jan 2010)

Complainer said:


> Unless of course, those guys have left the council and haven't been replaced due to the embargo;
> 
> see [broken link removed]


 
Maybe he should ask his buddy in Tipp North  if they have some spare capacity


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## liaconn (4 Jan 2010)

Firefly said:


> The guys working in the council are paid from 9-5, so any gritting should be done during this time. The only variable cost then should be grit and petrol/diesel. Surely we can afford this?


 

If it snows during the night, there would be chaos if no gritting took place until 9am after everyone's already hit the roads to get to work/school. Gritting needs to take place in the early hours of the morning, where possible.


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## gipimann (4 Jan 2010)

liaconn said:


> If it snows during the night, there would be chaos if no gritting took place until 9am after everyone's already hit the roads to get to work/school. Gritting needs to take place in the early hours of the morning, where possible.


 

A relative of mine works for a local authority and has been called in most days to grit roads - the call to start can be anytime from 3am to 5am (7am if he's lucky!).


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## Firefly (4 Jan 2010)

liaconn said:


> If it snows during the night, there would be chaos if no gritting took place until 9am after everyone's already hit the roads to get to work/school. Gritting needs to take place in the early hours of the morning, where possible.


 
If the roads were gritted well during the day (based on accurate forecasts) would this not suffice?


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## Complainer (5 Jan 2010)

Firefly said:


> If the roads were gritted well during the day (based on accurate forecasts) would this not suffice?


Not if it snows again!

Here's the reality of a gritting operation;

[broken link removed]


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## Latrade (5 Jan 2010)

Complainer said:


> Not if it snows again!
> 
> Here's the reality of a gritting operation;
> 
> [broken link removed]


 
You're being unreasonable again. 

It's unfair to introduce stuff like facts into a opportunity to bash the government, LAs and the PS. Sure, it's completely unprecidented, sure the forcasts couldn't and didn't foresee the extent and scale of the freezing, sure councils actually were out gritting it was just so cold that the gritting couldn't work, sure along with the UK and most of Europe there's huge demands on salt and as such everywhere is struggling for stock, I mean despite all that there were civil servants sat on their backsides doing nothing over Christmas living up that perk called "annual leave" and where were the TDs?


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## Sunny (5 Jan 2010)

Latrade said:


> You're being unreasonable again.
> 
> It's unfair to introduce stuff like facts into a opportunity to bash the government, LAs and the PS. Sure, it's completely unprecidented, sure the forcasts couldn't and didn't foresee the extent and scale of the freezing, sure councils actually were out gritting it was just so cold that the gritting couldn't work, sure along with the UK and most of Europe there's huge demands on salt and as such everywhere is struggling for stock, I mean despite all that there were civil servants sat on their backsides doing nothing over Christmas living up that perk called "annual leave" and where were the TDs?


 
Have I missed something? Where did anyone criticise public sector workers or accuse civil service workers of sitting on their backsides? Now you are the one starting the whole thing up again. It's like a version of Godwin's law at this stage


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## MOB (5 Jan 2010)

I really don't know if those who grit our roads are more or less efficient than those who grit the roads in Stockholm or Munich and I don't want to even start that argument.  Nor for that matter do I want to have a go at our planners or our politicians.

What I do think needs to be pointed out - over and over again - is that we have chosen to organise ourselves in this country in a certain way.  

We have chosen to have a preponderance of semi-detached housing estates in the suburbs, with relatively low population density in our city centres.

Within those housing estates, we have decided that an "organic" (no -don't ask me how it looks organic; truly I don't know) street layout, so that there are curves and cul-de sacs all over and a relative dearth of main\spine distributor roads on which public transport services ( and gritting services) can be easily concentrated.

We have chosen to allow people build on their land in rural areas, leading to a very dispersed settlement pattern.  I should say that I do not necessarily oppose this policy: I merely make the observation that having chosen this way of organising our lives, we must accept the consequences.  

Let us assume, for the sake of argument, that our public sector workers are in fact at least as good and efficient as those of Stockholm or Munich;  the reality is that we are asking them to work in a physical environment where they simply cannot deliver the same level of service to the citizenry.   This is not the fault of politicians:  we have exactly the sort of dispersed country that we wanted;  if there is a serious change of public opinion on the wisdom of past planning policy, this may change ( over the course of perhaps two generations).  But we weren't codded into our present situation.  As a people, this is exactly what we asked for.


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## Latrade (5 Jan 2010)

Sunny said:


> Have I missed something? Where did anyone criticise public sector workers or accuse civil service workers of sitting on their backsides? Now you are the one starting the whole thing up again. It's like a version of Godwin's law at this stage


 
Not really, it's just a small attempt (operative word) at humour given the disposition of the natives to start looking for heads to roll and people to blame for any issue. Tongue in cheek like. Given the PS and CS have been the whipping boys/girls for the last 18 months I thought I'd throw it in. If people seriously take it up as bait to have a go at the PS or CS then they probably need this inability to travel to take the time out to reflect on themselves.


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## Sunny (5 Jan 2010)

Latrade said:


> Not really, it's just a small attempt (operative word) at humour given the disposition of the natives to start looking for heads to roll and people to blame for any issue. Tongue in cheek like. Given the PS and CS have been the whipping boys/girls for the last 18 months I thought I'd throw it in. If people seriously take it up as bait to have a go at the PS or CS then they probably need this inability to travel to take the time out to reflect on themselves.


 
Fair enough but the way things have been, you were asking for trouble!


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## liaconn (5 Jan 2010)

MOB said:


> I really don't know if those who grit our roads are more or less efficient than those who grit the roads in Stockholm or Munich and I don't want to even start that argument. Nor for that matter do I want to have a go at our planners or our politicians.
> 
> What I do think needs to be pointed out - over and over again - is that we have chosen to organise ourselves in this country in a certain way.
> 
> ...


 

I know what you're saying MOB but, in fairness, I don't think 'we' chose a lot of these things. They were forced on us by corrupt politicians, developers and Co Councillors in many cases. Most of us would have preferred much stricter and properly enforced planning regulations that wouldn't see so many people scattered around outer suburbs or living in isolation while City Centres and Towns remain largely unpopulated and turn into 'no go' areas at night time.


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## Bronte (5 Jan 2010)

liaconn said:


> I know what you're saying MOB but, in fairness, I don't think 'we' chose a lot of these things. They were forced on us by corrupt politicians, developers and Co Councillors in many cases. Most of us would have preferred much stricter and properly enforced planning regulations that wouldn't see so many people scattered around outer suburbs or living in isolation while City Centres and Towns remain largely unpopulated and turn into 'no go' areas at night time.


 
And who didn't lobby a county coucillor when refussed planning permission to get the son or daughter the one off house miles from nowhere which was then sold on and another house built etc etc etc ?

I was on the M8, M7 and M50 on the 1st January.  One inch of snow and some ice and Ireland comes to a standstill.  Particulary where the Limerick and Cork road joined together and from there going towards Dublin.  These are not any roads, they are the main arteries in a wealthy country.  There is absolutely no reasonable explaination why there should be chaos on primary routes.  I saw no grit nor gritters in our long ardous journey, with trucks (and other lunatics at speed) passing out on the icy fast lane spraying snow and ice on the tailbacks in the 'very' slow lane and where there were 3 lanes being passed on both sides (middle lane, a long tailback, being by then relatively clear due to traffic) by those in a hurry and with no care as to their own safety or the safety of others.  I don't know how there weren't more accidents.  There are not too many main roads in Ireland but surely keeping all main roads to and from Dublin to the other major cities clear isn't beyond the capabilities of those in charge. 

As for the excuses of Dublin Bus, by pass the housing estates in an emergency weather situation is that too difficult.  

I dread to think what would happen if there was 2 inches of snow.


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## Firefly (5 Jan 2010)

Complainer said:


> Not if it snows again!
> 
> Here's the reality of a gritting operation;
> 
> [broken link removed]


 
Good point and with MOB's addition (post 21) I think it's impossible to grit all roads well, esp those small, rural ones. Best we can hope for is that the cities and major roads are gritted, but alas this does not seem to be the case. The roads leading into Cork city this morning from Mallow and Carrigaline were treacherous.


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## MOB (5 Jan 2010)

liaconn said:


> I know what you're saying MOB but, in fairness, I don't think 'we' chose a lot of these things.



I think we did.  For example, I can't recall any county councillor ever seeking election ( and certainly I can't recall one ever getting elected) on a platform of stamping out one-off rural housing. 

It is also clear that in Dublin\Greater Dublin Area, houses remain hugely more popular than apartments, with apartments being by far the hardest hit sector in terms of unsold housing stock.  Even well built, spacious apartments are quite hard to shift.  That is what 'we' as a nation choose.


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## nmesisca (6 Jan 2010)

jaybird said:


> You try driving a double decker on black ice....Dublin Bus drivers don't get paid nearly enough for that! It was ONE day that all services were cancelled, an unprecendented event due to extreme conditions, every other day has had almost full services with minor diversions.



how is 1 inch of snow "extreme" conditions exactly?
if a driver cant cope with that I really dont think I would want to employ him/her.


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## csirl (6 Jan 2010)

jaybird said:


> You try driving a double decker on black ice....Dublin Bus drivers don't get paid nearly enough for that! It was ONE day that all services were cancelled, an unprecendented event due to extreme conditions, every other day has had almost full services with minor diversions.


 
At the moment, the route I live on is running at about 50% capacity. I live in Dublin City. All the roads the bus uses are clear and have been for days. There is no reason for having reduced capacity on the route.


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## MOB (6 Jan 2010)

nmesisca said:


> how is 1 inch of snow "extreme" conditions exactly?
> if a driver cant cope with that I really dont think I would want to employ him/her.



I may be wrong about this - but I think that short of snow being an actual physical obstacle (i.e. needing snowploughs to clear the road) the big problem on the road is ice, whether from frost, frozen rain or compacted snow.  Ice is at its most dangerous when it is just around melting point ( i.e. when you can have black ice).    And even an inch of snow is enough to produce that ice layer we all know and love........

I would bet that our typical cold snap - where there is a very slight thaw most days - probably produces more dangerous driving conditions than you would see in those countries where the snow stays powder-dry and the temperature never gets above freezing over the winter period.


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## truthseeker (6 Jan 2010)

MOB said:


> I would bet that our typical cold snap - where there is a very slight thaw most days - probably produces more dangerous driving conditions than you would see in those countries where the snow stays powder-dry and the temperature never gets above freezing over the winter period.


 
Totally agree with this, in my own estate, by far the most dangerous times have been during and after a bit of a thaw. The day before xmas eve it rained a little onto twice refrozen ice and the footpaths and roads became absolutely lethal, I fell myself, the xmas ham thats Id just collected went spinning across the carpark like it was rocket propelled, and it was like a comedy watching people trying to get from car to home - the only way was to walk in the shrubbery where there was a small bit of grip.

By contrast, New Years Eve night I walked quite comfortable along on the freshly fallen snow with no slippage at all.


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## Firefly (6 Jan 2010)

truthseeker said:


> the xmas ham thats Id just collected went spinning across the carpark like it was rocket propelled


 
Yeah, and pigs might fly


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## damson (6 Jan 2010)

Where my brother lived (rural Scotland 5 years ago), the council left piles of grit at intervals along isolated rural roads and my understanding is that it was down to the locals to use them as required.


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## The_Banker (6 Jan 2010)

All buses in Dublin stopped now.. It appears the various radio shows are now devoting hours to it as Dublin is affected.
No such coverage when it was just Donegal, Galway, Sligo and Leitrim that was affected.
Ireland certainly ends at the edge of The Pale!


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## Bill Struth (6 Jan 2010)

The_Banker said:


> All buses in Dublin stopped now.. It appears the various radio shows are now devoting hours to it as Dublin is affected.
> No such coverage when it was just Donegal, Galway, Sligo and Leitrim that was affected.
> Ireland certainly ends at the edge of The Pale!


 Yawn.

 Wake us up when you're finished eh?


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## Lex Foutish (6 Jan 2010)

The_Banker said:


> All buses in Dublin stopped now.. It appears the various radio shows are now devoting hours to it as Dublin is affected.
> No such coverage when it was just Donegal, Galway, Sligo and Leitrim that was affected.
> Ireland certainly ends at the edge of The Pale!


 
I'm here in Utopia, having a pint of Beamish, and thinking of all those poor craters in Dublin, huddled around their pints of Guinness, contemplating what life in the capital will be like, if they get a second inch of snow! 

Will they be able to drive arind their rindabites? Will buses be abandoned on the streets? Will it be the end of civilisation as we know it?


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## haminka1 (6 Jan 2010)

OK, let's face it - Ireland simply isn't able to cope with snow or any kind of wintry weather - neither is the government ready nor the drivers. i was standing at a roundabout today and the van in front of me was skidding like hell, zigzaging all over the road. i don't know how far this guy had to go and had gone but if he had any longer journey ahead, i'm sure the van did not make it - summer tires, for god's sake!
and overloaded up to the hilt, i'm sure of that. 
if this kind of weather becomes regularity with the global warming, there will be no excuse for the government for not stocking up on salt, grit and decent machinery and winter tires becoming a must for every car - most of the countries in Europe made it a law for every driver to have a set of winter tires and put them on in october or november.


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## BillK (6 Jan 2010)

If it's any consolation, the area of England in which I live had 1000 schools closed today. Mind you, there were over two inches of snow on the drive so I guess that's some excuse.

I can remember walking to school in Coventry in the winter of 1947 when the snow was feet deep; I can also remember going to work in the winter of 1962/3 when it was also a bit deep.
I wonder if it's fear of the compensation culture or just the need to sensationalise everything by the media.


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## haminka1 (6 Jan 2010)

BillK said:


> If it's any consolation, the area of England in which I live had 1000 schools closed today. Mind you, there were over two inches of snow on the drive so I guess that's some excuse.
> 
> I can remember walking to school in Coventry in the winter of 1947 when the snow was feet deep; I can also remember going to work in the winter of 1962/3 when it was also a bit deep.
> I wonder if it's fear of the compensation culture or just the need to sensationalise everything by the media.



walking to school? some kids would actually have to walk some 1 km /or 1 mile/ to school! you can't really expect them, what about their carefully laid layers of fat from Sunday McDonald's lunches!
also, how many of them have actually seen decent winter shoes in their lives? and no, uggs are no decent winter shoes ...


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## RonanC (6 Jan 2010)

If today's weather was bad, imagine what the following could do to us if it continues on it's current path, currently north of Scotland - It is coming down from the Arctic and is building all the time. If that hits us we could see feet and not cm's of snow

[broken link removed]


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## boaber (6 Jan 2010)

damson said:


> Where my brother lived (rural Scotland 5 years ago), the council left piles of grit at intervals along isolated rural roads and my understanding is that it was down to the locals to use them as required.



I was in NI over Christmas and some of the local councils had left grit boxes at the entrances to some estates for this very purpose


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## liaconn (6 Jan 2010)

haminka1 said:


> walking to school? some kids would actually have to walk some 1 km /or 1 mile/ to school! you can't really expect them, what about their carefully laid layers of fat from Sunday McDonald's lunches!
> also, how many of them have actually seen decent winter shoes in their lives? and no, uggs are no decent winter shoes ...


 
Oh my Gawd! Walk to school, are you serious??? Their Ugg boots might get dirty and as for the effect on their GHD straightened hair!!! Anyway, why did mummy and daddy buy that big huge SUV, if not to park in clearways and on double yellows so that their little darlings won't have to walk an inch more than necessary?


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## csirl (6 Jan 2010)

Again, Dublin Bus lets us down. Standed 100,000s of commuters in Dublin City Centre today by pulling all its services with no warning just before evening rush hour. Bus Eireann buses seemed to be coping well with the conditions, but DB wouldnt run buses along the very same city streets that BE was driving along. Weather was bad, but all the main arteries were driveable.


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## RonanC (7 Jan 2010)

They could have moved the Ice Skating from Smithfield in Dublin up to O'Connell Street this afternoon thats how bad things were there. Dublin Bus would have put the safety of all passengers, other road users and their drivers at risk and I think they made the right decision.


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## Latrade (7 Jan 2010)

RonanC said:


> They could have moved the Ice Skating from Smithfield in Dublin up to O'Connell Street this afternoon thats how bad things were there. Dublin Bus would have put the safety of all passengers, other road users and their drivers at risk and I think they made the right decision.


 
+1 No way buses could have made it on my route. This despite being landed with a 10 mile walk to get home.


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## Sunny (7 Jan 2010)

Yeah, I wouldn't blame Dublin Bus for their decision but I still don't think every route needed to be stopped. A limited service could have operated in places. For example, aircoach and Swords Express operated.


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## Latrade (7 Jan 2010)

Sunny said:


> Yeah, I wouldn't blame Dublin Bus for their decision but I still don't think every route needed to be stopped. A limited service could have operated in places. For example, aircoach and Swords Express operated.


 
I suppose the problem for Dublin Bus is that those other services stick to major roads, whereas a lot od DB services divert through some estates etc. I can only speak from what I saw yesterday and the Malahide Road (especially up to Marino and then past Clare Hall) would have been way too dangerous for a bus.

I'm sure some limited service could have been provided, but not sure how big that service could have been.


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## Sunny (7 Jan 2010)

Latrade said:


> I suppose the problem for Dublin Bus is that those other services stick to major roads, whereas a lot od DB services divert through some estates etc. I can only speak from what I saw yesterday and the Malahide Road (especially up to Marino and then past Clare Hall) would have been way too dangerous for a bus.
> 
> I'm sure some limited service could have been provided, but not sure how big that service could have been.


 
I agree but yesterday was chaos and while I am not blaming Dublin Bus I am just not sure what sort of contingencies are in place for things like this. Maybe there is nothing that can be done but Dublin is so reliant on bus services that there should be some sort of plan of action. Even if we closed all the main routes into Dublin for a hour or 2, gritted them and then got traffic going again. There would be chaos but at least people would have a way home to the main areas.


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## Latrade (7 Jan 2010)

Sunny said:


> I am just not sure what sort of contingencies are in place for things like this.


 
I think the simple asnwer is: none whatsoever.

Not entirely sure what contingencies could be in place bar regular gritting through the day, which would be a start. 

I know it's a lame excuse to play the "unprecidented" card, but it'll be a month soon without any true thaw. Yesterday was snow, hail, sleet lying on ice then getting compacted by vehicles. You'd probably have needed several inches of grit down to prevent that.

Looks like we're due more over the weekend, heading over from East.


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## Teatime (7 Jan 2010)

RonanC said:


> If today's weather was bad, imagine what the following could do to us if it continues on it's current path, currently north of Scotland - It is coming down from the Arctic and is building all the time. If that hits us we could see feet and not cm's of snow
> 
> [broken link removed]


 
How can you make a large snowfall out of this picture?

To be honest I am hoping for a decent snow on higher ground because I'll be climbing this weekend, its magic up there.


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## RonanC (7 Jan 2010)

There is snow in that weather front but it is due to miss us, but there is a lot of snow due on sunday coming in from the east (batlic air)


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## Bronte (7 Jan 2010)

I'm missing something, why can't buses travel if cars and trucks can?  If it's a case of housing estates being too difficult can't they bypass them and take an alternative route leaving people to have a bit of a walk home but a lot closer than having to get home from city center.  Does Dublin Bus not have contingency plans for 2 cm of snow and some ice?


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## liaconn (7 Jan 2010)

I agree that Dublin Bus put up a poor showing yesterday. The bus I was on was suddenly pulled off the road mid route and everyone just had to get off and find another way of getting home. In fairness, though, given how quick people are nowadays to scream 'compensation' you can understand how DB might be very nervous of even taking the slightest risk of a skid or slide. There would be bound to be someone on the bus claiming whiplash and looking for a big handout.


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## truthseeker (7 Jan 2010)

liaconn said:


> given how quick people are nowadays to scream 'compensation'


 
Would you stop with your south dublin ways - its 'COMPO' they shout


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## liaconn (7 Jan 2010)

lol.


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## Ceist Beag (7 Jan 2010)

For anyone travelling by bus this evening, this is from dublinbus.ie

Due to the deteriorating conditions and in the interest of safety last departures outbound and inbound will leave at 20:00hrs on all services.  Dublin Bus would encourage all customers to travel as early as possible.  Both DART and Luas will honour Dublin Bus Tickets after 20:00hrs.


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## birdy (7 Jan 2010)

[quote To be honest I am hoping for a decent snow on higher ground because I'll be climbing this weekend, its magic up there.[/quote]

That probably would not be adviseable, mountain rescue teams have been on the radio, asking people not to go hill walking etc, as well as putting themselves at risk you are also putting the recuse services at risk, its very easy to trip & fall in this weather & accourding to the guy from Kerry, if you fell,its on hard ground so it easier to injure yourself. 

Go for a walk in your nearest park & enjoy that


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## haminka1 (8 Jan 2010)

Teatime said:


> How can you make a large snowfall out of this picture?
> 
> To be honest I am hoping for a decent snow on higher ground because I'll be climbing this weekend, its magic up there.



teatime, unless you are really well equipped and very experienced, don't try any climbing + getting there might be challenging at the moment
add to that that mountain rescue teams over here may not be as experienced and equipped to deal with a potential rescue situation if need arises ...


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## Bronte (8 Jan 2010)

jaybird said:


> you're missing the fact that a double decker bus is a lot bigger, less stable, and harder to control on ice. Plus carries a lot of passengers, with no seat belts. Would YOU drive a double decker bus on sheets of ice, on slopes and hills and windy roads? No, but you expect others to do it so as not to put you out.
> Buses cannot drive when it is not safe to do so. Its not rocket science. And as for contingencies, what exactly do you expect Dublin Bus to do when its not safe to drive buses? lay on some helicopters for you?


 
Well isn't a truck bigger? Why is a bus less stable, what if you go really slowly and carefully on the main routes with passengers only on the bottom wouldn't that be ok? I presume a double decker is worse than a normal bus, how about using normal buses if they are safer?

Where I am we have an inch of snow and -6 today but I've brought the kids to school all week and I've not heard of any public transport not working so I don't see how Dublin Bus is any different, this doesn't happen in Stockholm, Minneapolis, Bonn etc.

What if this continues for another 3 weeks, does it mean no public transport and no schools open?

Instead of a helicopter how about an army truck to do the bus routes, I'm sure people wouldn't mind as long as they could get to and from work. 

At least there should be some solutions or even a plan of what do do when there is 'some' snow and ice. You'd think it was the ice age instead of 2 cm of snow.

I was in the West and South over xmas and there was snow and ice for days on end (by now nearly 3 weeks in some places) but I don't recall any city buses stopping in Sligo, Galway, Limerick or Cork, why is Dublin different? I would have thought with the volume of traffic day and night that if the buses and cars are constantly on the roads it would keep them clear?


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## DublinTexas (8 Jan 2010)

What is more amazing is that our government did nothing to prepare.

With mid-term weather forecast still being more a prediction game than a 100% guarantee it is still amazing to hear that the European Center for Mid-range Weather Forecasts gave about a month warning that we are going to see a very heavy snow fall. 

So our government would have had weeks to ensure that we stockpile the salt/grid needed, that our gas reserves are filled up and that plans are made to utilize the army (isn’t this a reason why we keep an army) where needed.

In true reactive fashion it takes them days of snow and heavy criticism by public to finally get the National Emergency Response Committee into gear, nearly 2 weeks since the deadly snow/ice combination started bringing down our country.

I can understand that Dublin Bus has no choice to abandon some areas because the local council is unable to keep secondary routes free of ice because it’s too dangerous but why was this not planned better?

Anything in which our government has it’s dirty fingers is a reactive business, we live from emergency (floods) over emergency budget (because we can't see the obvious) to emergency (snow/ice). 

What makes it even worse is that the failure of our government to provide adequate services (for which I pay a large share of my salary) is having major effects on private businesses which are struggling anyhow due to the depression we find ourselves in.

With no traffic possible restaurants will get no business (which they need), shopping is keep to a minimum (thanks goodness I always keep a 2 week emergency supply) and other parts of our economy can’t get their vital supplies.

Sure in true reactive fashion the CER gives us a 8% decrease in Gas bill, after the current emergency is expected to be over. What a relief….


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## Teatime (8 Jan 2010)

haminka1 said:


> teatime, unless you are really well equipped and very experienced, don't try any climbing + getting there might be challenging at the moment
> add to that that mountain rescue teams over here may not be as experienced and equipped to deal with a potential rescue situation if need arises ...


 
Thanks for the concern folks but I am experienced and fully equipped and I know the mountains. I have already climbed one mountain during the cold snap (900m+). Winter climbing is my favourite.

But yes, I wouldn't advise anyone inexperienced to go exploring higher ground and I would encourage people to donate to Mountain Rescue.


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## markpb (8 Jan 2010)

Bronte said:


> Well isn't a truck bigger? Why is a bus less stable, what if you go really slowly and carefully on the main routes with passengers only on the bottom wouldn't that be ok? I presume a double decker is worse than a normal bus, how about using normal buses if they are safer?



Buses have to pull into busstops  at the end of the road where the slush collects and it's dangerous to brake and accelerate. They carry passengers who are walking about, climing up and down stairs and standing between seats which means any sudden motion could cause injuries. They can't simply switch to single decker buses because there are only about 30 of them left in the city.



> Where I am we have an inch of snow and -6 today but I've brought the kids to school all week and I've not heard of any public transport not working so I don't see how Dublin Bus is any different, this doesn't happen in Stockholm, Minneapolis, Bonn etc.



I don't see how anyone can rationally compare a city which rarely gets heavy snowfall with a city which regularly gets lots of snow. Buying the requirement amount of heavy machinery to keep streets clear during heavy snowfall would (rightly) be criticised as a waste of money in Dublin. The only point I will concede is that the local authorities should have had larger stocks of salt and grit but even that is a moot point when you consider they're using 2-3 normal supplies of salt each day. 



> Instead of a helicopter how about an army truck to do the bus routes, I'm sure people wouldn't mind as long as they could get to and from work.



You're assuming the army have 1,200 trucks (which can hold 94 people each) and 94 drivers all standing around doing nothing and can be taught routes and 
 sent out with a few days notice.  



> I would have thought with the volume of traffic day and night that if the buses and cars are constantly on the roads it would keep them clear?



The opposite is true. After a heavy snowfall, the heavy trafficed routes were like bottles because of the effect of thousands of cars impacting the snow and ice. 

What should have been done is
- the DoT/DoEHLG should have had its own reserves of grit and salt to be distributed to areas running out
- the government should have convened an emergency group meeting to make sure the authorities had proper plans to tackle the affected areas
- in Dublin, the city councils should have focused their gritting efforts on hills, ramps and humback bridges. Fairview was effectively shut down because of the canal bridge even though the rest of the road was fine. Ditto for the M50 at several points. 
- the local authority and gardai should have had a plan for rolling road closures in order to effectively grit the roads at short notice during the day. They couldn't do it properly on Wednesdsay because of the congestion caused by everyone trying to leave early.


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## RonanC (8 Jan 2010)

This is an amazing satellite image of UK and Ireland from NASA

[broken link removed]


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## Eanair (8 Jan 2010)

> I don't see how anyone can rationally compare a city which rarely gets heavy snowfall with a city which regularly gets lots of snow.



Indeed. I was just talking to a colleague in Amsterdam, where they're experiencing the same problems for similar reasons.

On the point around the buses, aren't Dublin buses rear-wheel drive? That's got to make it more difficult to drive and control them in snow/ice.


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## cork (8 Jan 2010)

DublinTexas said:


> What is more amazing is that our government did nothing to prepare.
> 
> ….




It is the reponsibility of local government.

We have about 129 local government bodies.

Their planning, organisation & management is a disgrace.


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## jdwex (8 Jan 2010)

Very few of us are prepared on an individual basis either - perhaps we should all have winter tyres for our cars 

I think house owners /business owners should be made legally responsible for keeping the pavements in front of them free of ice and snow- its the case in other countries


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## truthseeker (8 Jan 2010)

jdwex said:


> I think house owners /business owners should be made legally responsible for keeping the pavements in front of them free of ice and snow- its the case in other countries


 
How does that work in the case of (perhaps) elderly people, who wouldnt be able to shovel away the snow/ice?


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## liaconn (8 Jan 2010)

Or people who are away on holidays when it snows, or sick in bed? If you don't own the area outside your gate and can't for instance claim the right to keep that space free for your car, why should you be held legally responsible for it when it snows?  I agree there is a social responsibility to try and keep the path clear if you're able to do so, but I don't think it should be a legal requirement.


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## jdwex (8 Jan 2010)

truthseeker said:


> How does that work in the case of (perhaps) elderly people, who wouldnt be able to shovel away the snow/ice?



In at least one other country they still are responsible, and have to make arrangements for someone else to do it if they are unable.
From bbc web site


> The US city of Boston is equally tough. The mayor's website states people have a personal responsibility to remove snow from "the full paved width of the sidewalk or a minimum of 42 inches wide". Fines can reach as much as $250 (£154) for each day the snow is left.
> 
> There are also strict regulations in Germany, Austria and Switzerland. Most German towns have a "street cleaning statute". Snow-shovelling requirements are spelled out in detail, even down to the minimum width of the cleared area and the time during which you must keep the snow cleared.



AND
[broken link removed]



> Should somebody slip in the snow, the council will only assume liability if the pavement is faulty. Ice and snow are the householder’s responsibility and if you are away for the weekend, unwell or unable for whatever reason to clear your own snow it remains your obligation to see that the job is done.
> 
> Commercial options usually involve contracting gardeners (who switch between hoes and snow shovels according to the season). Neighbours, family or friends can also be recruited though the council insists that a formal declaration with details of the nominated shoveller is lodged with them.


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## DublinTexas (8 Jan 2010)

cork said:


> It is the reponsibility of local government.
> 
> We have about 129 local government bodies.
> 
> Their planning, organisation & management is a disgrace.


 
And most of these local governments are not needed anyhow; we should have more direct democracy with a good public service rather than layers of layers of red tape adding no value. But that is a different story.

Well the army is now out providing assistance and the government seems to be doing something, but still if this weather continues and the salt stocks are really gone by Sunday than next week we all can stay at home and enjoy a cold winter day.

Fact is that they had enough advance warning that this was likely to happen and they could have planned in advance instead of doing their reactive mode again.

With no salt as of Sunday and next week’s possible supply only ½ of what they got this week with new snow as of Sunday we are all going to have fun next week.

Time to stock up on food (with roads not cleaned no supply to supermarkets), candles (because we might get power cuts), water (because our reservoirs are about to run dry) and blankets (because the gods only know what our gas reserve is).

Welcome to civilization the Irish way ®


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