# Abolishing use of cheques?



## cinders55 (30 Apr 2010)

Sorry if this has been asked already, I did a search first but didn't find any reference to my query.   I know that most shops and stores have long since stopped accepting cheques but is it true that their use is to be phased out completely before the end of the year?   If it is true, how will elderly people for example, who don't have access to online banking etc., pay bills by post?   Some of them, just like my own father, aren't physically able to even use the Post Office services.   It may sound like a stupid question when most of us use cheques once in a blue moon, but I'm concerned about this unstoppable push towards all things electronic.   When there's a power cut in our house, the online banking bites the dust!


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## Towger (30 Apr 2010)

2016, so six years left. The other answer is "direct debit".


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## Mpsox (30 Apr 2010)

There are no plans to abolish cheques this year. The 2016 date is a target date and there are no industry plans in place to meet this target

The UK are planning on abolishing cheques by October 2018, subject to suitable alternative methods of payment being in place

In Ireland (North and South), the overall volume of cheques expected to be issued this year is approx 180 million,


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## Towger (30 Apr 2010)

Mpsox said:


> no industry plans in place to meet this target


 
Just like the SEPA targets


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## z107 (30 Apr 2010)

The sooner they are phased out the better. They are a complete nuisance.
The credit card levy should instead be applied to cheque books to hasten their demise.



> If it is true, how will elderly people for example, who don't have access to online banking etc., pay bills by post?


They can get access to online banking. I know of an elderly person who went to free computer training and got a second hand computer. They are now able to do online banking. They don't have to try to make their way to the post box.


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## cinders55 (30 Apr 2010)

*Abolishing use of cheques*

Thank you all for the clarification, it's helpful to have this information.   Just on the subject of the elderly, I'm glad for the person mentioned who did a course etc., but they were obviously sufficiently well to avail of the opportunity.   I am more concerned about those who are not well enough through vision impairment and/or immobility for instance; the loss of independence that these problems inflict on people is hard enough to bear without having to surrender their financial independence as well, I know what I'm talking about here!   Direct debits are fine for recurring charges but they don't take care of the once off transactions.   Cheques may be a nuisance indeed but they don't require a power supply to issue, they don't suffer from system breakdown and it's hard to hack into them as well!   I do my own banking online all the time but even I don't want to lose the flexibility of writing a cheque for kids birthdays for example; the Banks have gone to such lengths to drive us off their premises that regularly having to stand in line for a bank draft is a grim prospect.   I just don't think it has been properly thought through yet or are we heading back to, rather than moving away from cash?   Better times ahead for the muggers and burglars perhaps?!!!


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## z107 (30 Apr 2010)

> Cheques may be a nuisance indeed but they don't require a power supply to issue, they don't suffer from system breakdown and it's hard to hack into them as well! I do my own banking online all the time but even I don't want to lose the flexibility of writing a cheque for kids birthdays for example; the Banks have gone to such lengths to drive us off their premises that regularly having to stand in line for a bank draft is a grim prospect. I just don't think it has been properly thought through yet or are we heading back to, rather than moving away from cash? Better times ahead for the muggers and burglars perhaps?!!!


We are moving towards a cashless, and chequeless society. It is happening. We should not ever have to queue up in banks any more. For your kids birthday, you could just transfer money directly to their account, and save the stamp.
As for 'system breakdowns' - our local branch lost 8 cheques we sent to them a couple of weeks ago. They've left the burden on us to follow up and get people to reissue the cheques.


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## TarfHead (30 Apr 2010)

umop3p!sdn said:


> The sooner they are phased out the better. They are a complete nuisance.


 
I pay my childcare provider by cheque. And tradesmen doing work in the house.

Should I have a wad of cash on hand just because cheques are '_a complete nuisance_' ? What about the security risks of withdrawing and maintaining large amounts of cash ?

Surely encouraging (by closing down the main alternative) cash payments to trademen is facilitating tax evasion ?

Something like the M-Pesa system in Kenya could be an alternative, but I haven't heard of anything in Europe, let alone Ireland.


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## z107 (30 Apr 2010)

> I pay my childcare provider by cheque. And tradesmen doing work in the house.
> 
> Should I have a wad of cash on hand just because cheques are 'a complete nuisance' ? What about the security risks of withdrawing and maintaining large amounts of cash ?


No, just transfer the money directly from your bank account to their bank account. Simple.


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## TarfHead (30 Apr 2010)

umop3p!sdn said:


> No, just transfer the money directly from your bank account to their bank account. Simple.


 
How ?

- going to a bank branch and filling out a form.
 -using the bank's online service which could take at least one week (using 365 Online) for the funds to arrive.

Are either of those 'simpler' than writing a cheque ?


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## z107 (30 Apr 2010)

Well Tarfhead, I suppose that's yet another disadvantage to bailing out banks. When bad banks aren't allowed to fail, you end up with rubbish, backward service.
If it can take week for an electronic funds transfer, this country desperately needs new banks.


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## Complainer (30 Apr 2010)

TarfHead said:


> -using the bank's online service which could take at least one week (using 365 Online) for the funds to arrive.


They'll still have it in their account quicker then you writing a cheque, them posting it or travelling to branch, and then waiting for it to clear.


TarfHead said:


> Are either of those 'simpler' than writing a cheque ?


Yes, for your creche, if you set up a standing order recurring payment on your electronic banking.


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## paddi22 (30 Apr 2010)

I volunteer with the elderly and there is no way that 99% of the older people i work with can handle online banking. 
• Many can hardly afford to pay their bills, never mind a laptop and broadband
• A lot have no family or younger folk to show them how to do it
• A lot wouldn't even know where to go to get a course
• Because of disabilities or arthritis a lot can't manage a mouse or touch pad
• They wouldn't have a clue how to update software, browsers, virus protection
• Because of impaired vision or deafness, a lot of the banks websites aren't suitably accessible, also a lot of the older folk would need to know how to use screen readers etc

I understand the need for banking to go online, but cheques really are a lifesaver for some sections of society


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## TarfHead (30 Apr 2010)

Complainer said:


> Yes, for your creche, if you set up a standing order recurring payment on your electronic banking.


 
Last week's amount, this week's and next week's are each different amount. Score Cheque  !


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## Complainer (30 Apr 2010)

TarfHead said:


> Last week's amount, this week's and next week's are each different amount. Score Cheque  !


Easily managed with online banking, or better still, change the business model and agree a standard weekly or monthly fee.


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## ontour (1 May 2010)

By the time that cheques are abolished, payments using mobile devices will be as pervasive as mobile phone calls are today.  The iPhone is there already as many providers of microfinance in developing countries.

I wonder of there is any estimate of the tax lost to non declared transactions such as child minding or tradespeople or any products or services now sold for cash.  It could form a significant part of the economic recovery !


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## markpb (1 May 2010)

TarfHead said:


> -using the bank's online service which could take at least one week (using 365 Online) for the funds to arrive.



If I do an online EFT from my Halifax account before midday, it will be in the other persons (Irish) bank account before 9am the next day.


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## Mongola (2 May 2010)

I think this is ridiculous! I am not old and have full access stop a computer but i do like to have the choice to how I decide to pay! I do use cheques, they are handy if I don t have any cash on me. I do not pay in shops with them but for example the last time, i had to make an emergency stop at my doctor, no cash on me so paid by cheque. Why are we forced into a fully computerised and electronic world???

_I understand the need for banking to go online, but cheques really are a  lifesaver for some sections of society 		. _
I could not agree more with Paddi22!!

I would imagine and hope that by then, they will have a system in place that will allow flexibilty for the elderly or for those like me who still believe in having the choice of how I decide to pay!


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## roker (2 May 2010)

I Have just paid my car insurance via check. I avoid Direct Debits because of past problems, and on line banking because of security issues. They are so clever now, I almost got caught a couple of months back when the hackers managed to intercept the bank page and throw up an identical page but asking for extra information. When I phoned the bank they said I had a virus, even though I keep my software up to date.


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## z107 (2 May 2010)

> They are so clever now, I almost got caught a couple of months back when the hackers managed to intercept the bank page and throw up an identical page but asking for extra information. When I phoned the bank they said I had a virus, even though I keep my software up to date.


This is akin to someone stealing cheques out of your cheque book - or other cheque fraud.

In your case you _almost_ got caught.

Remember cheques can bounce, be stolen and go missing (like what happened to me a couple of weeks ago). They're also a pita to administer. 

When customers pay electronically in our company, it's all automated. They automatically get their product and the VAT invoice is created and the payment goes into our accounts system. When people say they want to pay by cheque, it really throws a spanner in the works. Everything has to be done manually, and we still have to find a way of getting the cheque into our bank account. This involves either wasting half the day visiting our (not so local) bank branch, or posting them the cheques so they can lose them. Even then, if they don't lose the cheques, we have to wait yet more time, in case the cheque bounces.


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## TSThomas (2 May 2010)

paddi22 said:


> I volunteer with the elderly and there is no way that 99% of the older people i work with can handle online banking...



Don't forget telephone banking...

In my own line of work, cheque payments do indeed bounce (regularly) which creates additional headaches in sending demands (etc.), not to mention those filled in incorrectly & must be returned. EFTs work flawlessly though.


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## TarfHead (2 May 2010)

markpb said:


> If I do an online EFT from my Halifax account before midday, it will be in the other persons (Irish) bank account before 9am the next day.



Do Halifax allow you to send money on the fly ?

Cos BOI don't. They require you to register the beneficiary which you can't access until you activate it via an activation code sent to you by post. So if I have to pay a tradesman, I need their bank details, wait 3/4 days to activate them on 365 Online, then pay the amount which could, depending on the time frame, take another day or three to arrive in their bank account.

Versus 30 seconds to write a cheque and I don't have to think about it any more.

And from the cheque recipient's perspective, with online banking they have to actively monitor the bank account to make sure the funds arrive, and that's when the payment arrives with a correct narrative.

And if I register each and every person to whom I might ever need to give a cheque to, my online account is going to get (even !) slower as the list of beneficiaries lengthens.

The principal advantage of cheques, for me, is the €12.50 MSD for each book of 25. Given that there is not yet a viable alternative, they're a necessary evil.


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## Complainer (2 May 2010)

TarfHead said:


> Do Halifax allow you to send money on the fly ?
> 
> Cos BOI don't. They require you to register the beneficiary which you  can't access until you activate it via an activation code sent to you by  post. So if I have to pay a tradesman, I need their bank details, wait  3/4 days to activate them on 365 Online, then pay the amount which  could, depending on the time frame, take another day or three to arrive  in their bank account.


NIB certainly allow you to set up payees (Irish or international) on the fly. The only danger is that you enter a wrong digit, and the money goes astray. I usually do a low value test payment with new payees, and confirm that it has been received before making regular payments.



TarfHead said:


> Versus 30 seconds to write a cheque and I don't have to think about it  any more.
> 
> And from the cheque recipient's perspective, with online banking they  have to actively monitor the bank account to make sure the funds arrive,  and that's when the payment arrives with a correct narrative.


But with the cheque, you have to physically post or deliver it, and the recipient has to physically post it or deliver it to their bank, complete a lodgement slip, and confirm that payment has been cleared before drawing on the those funds.


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## markpb (3 May 2010)

TarfHead said:


> Do Halifax allow you to send money on the fly? Cos BOI don't. They require you to register the beneficiary which you can't access until you activate it via an activation code sent to you by post. So if I have to pay a tradesman, I need their bank details, wait 3/4 days to activate them on 365 Online, then pay the amount which could, depending on the time frame, take another day or three to arrive in their bank account.



Absolutely. Log in, enter recepient details, enter password, complete transfer, job done. 30 seconds. And like I said, if you did it before midday, they'd have it the next day. Don't mistake lazy Irish banks for bad banking in general.

On a side note, I miss Halifax already


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## candyflipper (28 May 2010)

Cheques are better.  

Look what happens to folks who try to wire money in the SEPA area.. they're _falsely_ told that it's free, then intermediary banks take money directly out of the wire itself.  The consumer has no control over this, and no way to stop it from happening.  They simply discover that less money showed up at the other end.  They then must pay 25€ simply to trace the money, to get a record of what happened, and discover which bank took the money.  Sure, you know how much _your_ bank will take, but you cannot know how much the other bank will take, or any of the banks inbetween, because it's not simply based on the bank.  Banks have different fees for different clients and account types.  Wires are totally vulnerable to money grabs.

With a cheque, the postman (and anyone else who passes the check along to the recipient) cannot snatch some of the money.  You know the full amount will make it to the intended recipient.


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## ontour (28 May 2010)

candyflipper said:


> You know the full amount will make it to the intended recipient.



Unless of course it gets lost in the post, or stolen from your postbox, or the recipient loses the check or their bank will not process a non bank or foreign cheque and puts it in their internal mail.  At the end of all this the recipient could lose a huge chunk of the money between fees, charges, commissions etc. They will potentially also lose the value of the cash between when you send it and when the cheque is credited to their account.

Like most things in life there are Pro's and Con's to each method of payment.


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## candyflipper (28 May 2010)

ontour said:


> the recipient could lose a huge chunk of the money between fees, charges, commissions etc.


All those fees are only possible on the recipients end of the transaction, and the recipient understands and accepts the terms of their own bank.  Eg. The sending bank cannot send less than the amount on the check.  And there's no opportunity for an intermediate bank to take some undisclosed fee either.  There are no surprises here.

BTW, aren't cheque deposits generally free in most UK banks? 


ontour said:


> They will potentially also lose the value of the cash between when you send it and when the cheque is credited to their account.


Only a cashier's cheque makes it possible to lose access to the money while it's in transit (which is also the case for wires, which ironically can take weeks sometimes).  

With normal cheques, the sender has access to the money up until the point of cashing -- which means they are still getting interest on the money until it actually moves, at which point the interest starts for the recipient.


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## Crugers (29 May 2010)

candyflipper said:


> Cheques are better.
> 
> Look what happens to folks who try to wire money in the SEPA area..
> 
> With a cheque, the postman (and anyone else who passes the check along to the recipient) cannot snatch some of the money. You know the full amount will make it to the intended recipient.


 
AFAIK your Irish Euro cheques can't be used for 'foreign' payments, SEPA or not...


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## DrMoriarty (29 May 2010)

Correct. And, for amounts under €50,000, the banks at both ends of the transaction can only apply the same fees as they would for a 'domestic' ETF (usually somewhere between nil and €0.50).

I doubt whether I write more than three or four cheques a year, and I only ever step inside a branch when I need to lodge one. But that suits me, and may not suit others. From a consumer point of view, is it really too much to ask that banks continue to provide the option, until a viable alternative is as widely available?


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