# UK Resident – Ireland Ordinarily Resident – which Tax Form?



## JamesUK (10 May 2006)

I moved to the UK in August 2004, and submitted tax returns for that year, during which I was considered resident in Ireland. Now I wish to submit returns for my 2005 Irish income, for which year I’m now considered to be ordinarily resident (as also will be for 2006 and 2007). 

Up to and including 2004, an accountant submitted my self-employed returns electronically, but now I wish to do my own returns (mainly rental income). Should I use Form 11, or should I use a different form, now that I’m resident in the UK, and ordinarily resident in Ireland?

I emailed Revenue about this (and other related questions) about a week ago, but no response so far. Last year I had responses to two emails within a few days, though a third email was never answered (the latter email was probably poorly constructed). So I kept this recent email as clear and simple as possible.

I notice the Revenue web site says (under Customer Service Standards): “We will reply to 80% of items in clear and comprehensive terms within 20 working days”, also “Demand for services can be very high from January to March and during October each year.”

I intentionally didn’t phone, because its expensive from the UK, but mainly because I like to have a written record of answers (avoids having to remember what someone said). However, if necessary I will phone, but maybe I should wait until the 20 days are up?

James


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## bazermc (10 May 2006)

There is no special form for non residents as far as i know - Use form 11 there is a box at the start where you specify your residence status etc...

have done returns for americans with irish property and i used a form 11 and it was processed correctly by revenue and an assessment raised correctly

Unfortunately you cannont rely on revenue to dish out correct advise but however should you rely on there advice and it later transpires to be incorrect they will not be held responsible etc............

FYI in relation to your exposure to irish income tax as a non resident but ordinarily resident - Section 821 provides that should your non employment income not exceed €3,810 no Irish tax liability will arise


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## JamesUK (11 May 2006)

Thanks bazermc.

I see the questions about residency on Form 11. I also looked at the short version, Form 11E, but as it omits these questions, I will use Form 11.

Form 11 has the following three tick boxes:

13. Not domiciled in the State

I haven't abandoned the idea of ever returning to Ireland, so I'm still domiciled in Ireland.

14. A citizen of Ireland not ordinarily resident in the state

Having left in 2004, I'm ordinarily resident for 2005, 2006 and 2007.

15. Non-resident

As well as ordinarily resident, I will also be non-resident for 2005, 2006 and 2007, and subsequent years, until I return.


Should I only tick box 15, or both 14 and 15?


(A table in Revenue's Res1 booklet outlines how combinations of the above affect tax treatment. In spite of their good efforts, I still found this confusing. Is this information explained better in any commercially available books?)

James


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## bazermc (11 May 2006)

Hi James

Dont use form 11e as this is for paye individuals

in relation to your situation re residence 
domicile is a common law concept based on your permanent home - as you intend to return to Ireland at some stage it is unlikely that you have abonded your domicile of origin and therefore remain Irish domicile

in relation to being ordinarily resident for the tax year you must have been resident for the previous 3 tax years? and as you said you will remain ord res for 3 years after becoming non resident 

you would then tick box 15 only but write beside it that you are ordinarily resident in Ireland
question 14 relates to non ord resident individuals who get a portion of credits based on the irish income over worldwide income

revenue information booklets are not great and they do not tend to update them for finance act changes etc....

basically an individual who is ordinarily resident in Ireland is taxed as though he was resident in Ireland with the exception of income derived from:

(i)    a trade or profession no part of which is carried on in Ireland, or
(ii)    other foreign income which is less than €3,810 per annum, or
(iii)    an office or employment all of the duties of which are carried on outside Ireland (apart from incidental duties).

If an individual is domiciled in Ireland, not resident but ordinarily resident in Ireland, he will be taxed as an Irish resident domiciled individual, subject to the specific exceptions listed above.

Hope this helps
B


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## Pegasus (11 May 2006)

What about not domiciled, not resident but ordinary resident.
If they take a salary from an Irish co. what tax credits , lower rate band etc are they entitled to?


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## JamesUK (12 May 2006)

bazermc,

Thanks for your helpful comments about Form 11. 

You suggest writing beside tick box 15 that I'm ordinarily resident in Ireland. I don't know if the Revenue staff extracting data from tax forms are obliged to heed such comments. Would it be better to tick the 'Expression of Doubt' box on page one, and make this comment on an attached covering letter?

The following is another question I put to Revenue in my recent email (still no reply): "Are published Irish Income Tax Rates, Exemption Limits, and Personal Tax Credits applicable to me, or do different rates apply when Ordinarily Resident?" 

I suspect Revenue may tax me on every cent of the rental income (after expenses), unless they treat me differently during the initial three Ordinarily Resident years (2005-7), but I cannot find any online Revenue document which explicitely states this. All I found were the following tantalising statements:

*Tax Briefing – Issue 42 (pert-2)*
[broken link removed]
_Rental Income & non-resident landlords_ (page 35 – Acrobat page 22)

“ .. refief will be given for any personal allowances to which the non-resident landlord is entitled and tax will be charged at the marginal rate.”

No mention of Exemption Limits.


*Tax Treaties - United Kingdom*
http://www.revenue.ie/services/tax_info/dtas/uk.htm
_Article 22 Personal Allowances_
(1) Individuals who are residents of the United Kingdom shall be entitled to the same personal allowances, reliefs and reductions for the purposes of Irish tax as citizens of Ireland not resident in the Republic of Ireland. 


In a post to AskAboutMoney on 15-01-2002, Tommy (www.mcgibney.com) said:

"I enquired to the Tax Office about what happens your tax credits after [the years you are deemed to be tax-resident here] and they told me you are not entitled to any tax credit after you become "tax non-resident". However I think they are wrong and that as an Irish citizen you are entitled to part of your tax credits as follows:

Personal tax credits x A/B
where A = your total income taxable in Ireland
and B = total "world" income from all sources, including Irish income.

This could be worth fighting for, as a fair bit of money may be involved when you are away for a few years."

However, I don't have the stomach for a fight with Revenue!

James


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## bazermc (12 May 2006)

Hi James

The reason why i suggest writing on the form is that there is no box for ticking if you are non resident but ordinarily resident such as yourself. Making an expression of doubt would mean there is doubt which there is not as revenue expect you to engage professional advice and if still in doubt make a genuine expression of doubt - which this is not.

Where non-residents are assessable on income arising in Ireland they are not entitled to any personal allowances or reliefs except in the special circumstances. A citizen of Ireland or a citizen, subject or national of another member state of the European Union is entitled to a partial credit based on the Irish income over worldwide income. As there is no space/area for this on the form 11 you will need to prepare a seperate computation detailing this with a letter drawing the revenues attention to it. This area is specifically provided for in Irish tax legislation and have used it before. Your example is quite correct and revenue have in fact stated in the briefing that the landlord may be entitled to credits however they do not elaborate on it Its under the heading landlord not landlord and agent. I feel you will be entitled to partial credits. 

The double taxation agreement between Ireland and the UK provides that Ireland has taxing rights over Irish property therfore a credit for Irish tax paid will be allowed against your UK tax bill on the Irish rental income.


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## JamesUK (12 May 2006)

bazermc,

Thank you for making that point. As you say, there is no doubt about my residency status. It's my own doubt about how to handle tick boxes 13 - 15 on page 3 of Form 11, but I accept that isn't what the 'Expression of Doubt' tick box is for. I trust that your experience is that written comments are acceptable in this case (and possibly in some other areas of the form - perhaps if not overused). It's unfortunate that there is no area on the form for Additional Information. From your comments about engaging professional advice, do I conclude that Revenue would not welcome voluntary attachments giving additional information (i.e. where not specifically requested)?

Thank you for also pointing out that I will be entitled to partial credits, but that I need to make my case in a separate letter. My UK self-employment income (or profit) for the recent UK tax year was extremely low, so that the A/B ratio will be close to the maximum (1.0), and very much worth following up. Do I understand that this applies to Personal Tax Credits only, and not to Exemption Limits (which presumably don't apply)? Is the relevant Irish tax legislation available to read online? I would like to word my letter appropriately.

The areas I need to declare in both UK and Irish tax forms are relatively few, i.e. income and savings, and so in theory, completing the forms should be easy. Where the complexity arises in my mind is as follows. The tax year in Ireland is 1st Jan to 31st Dec 31, and since about 2000 (as I was self-employed), I established this as my accounting period also (for simplicity). The UK tax year and my accounting period here are both 6th Apr to 5th Apr, so the two tax and accounting periods are out of sync. The Irish year 2005 tax form and the UK year 2005/6 tax form are now both due. (I registered as self-employed in UK from 6th Apr 2005, and though I'm resident in UK since late 2004, I did not work here until after 6th Apr 2005. I'm hoping UK won't ask me to complete a tax form for year ending 5th April 2005.)

I don't know which tax form to complete first. In respect of the double taxation agreement between Ireland and the UK, I cannot get my head around what appears to be a chicken and egg situation. Both tax authorities indicate they want me to declare any income and savings which arise in both countries. Yet, I feel I cannot declare to one with accuracy, until I have declared to the other first and received it's assessment. For country X to award me credits for tax paid in country Y, this requires me to have completed my assessment for country Y first. And vice versa. Also, because of the 'sync' issue, when each authority looks at my figures for the other country, they will be looking at figures which apply to different periods.

Any advice on these issues would be much appreciated.

James


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## bazermc (12 May 2006)

Hi james 
In relation to the form 11 - you need to by law make a complete true and full return if the form 11 is not sufficient to do this you would be obliged to attach additional info
The relevant legislation is avaialble for free on the revenue website as pdf downloads the relevant section for you is section 1032 and 821 TCA 1997 both in tca part 2, here are the links:
[broken link removed]
[broken link removed]
[broken link removed]

with regard to income tax exemption this will be assessed by looking at your total income which revenue have stated by way of precedent that "total income" includes worldwide income which makes it therefore useless this is it anyway:

Revenue Precedents
Residence: Are the exemption limits are available to a person who is not resident in Ireland (TCA97 s187 and s188)? Yes. “total income” for these purposes includes income arising outside the State which is not chargeable to tax in the State.

therefore you will only get a personal credit as restricted 

In relation to your double taxation issue
firstly your irish tax return for 2005 is not due to be filed till 31 october 2006 (you can file early mine is well done at this stage) the uk tax year just ended so i reckon that return is not due till after xmas ie at least 9 months 
this allows you to do the following to get around the chicken and egg situation
Firstly draft your uk return self employed income everything apart from irish rents do not file this return yet. next prepare your irish return using draft uk figures to arrive at your personal credit as restricted according to the formula submit that return for filing and annoy revenue every day till the get an assessment raised but give them a month at least before doing so after that tell them its urgent as you have a uk return to file and you need the irish tax liabiliy comfirmed so you can claim a credit in the uk
once an assessment is raised you can finish off your uk return and file that 
the 3 months between our tax years should help given that the irish return will be due first
in relation to your income you should apportion that as if it accured equally to arrive at uk income for 2005
so say for example your uk profits for ye 5/4/06 where €12K and you started trading in april 2005 i wouild take 9/12 of €12K being €9K

lastly have you engaged a uk accounant i would recommend doing so
if you still unsure about your irish return you could go back to your old irish accoutant unless you had a falling out!!!!

Hope this helps
B


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## JamesUK (15 May 2006)

bazermc,

ALL of this discussion has helped my understanding, and has brought clarity to the subject.

I understand the relevant TCA 1997 sections I need to study are:
Part 34, Provisions Relating to the Residence of Individuals, Section 821
Part 45, Charging and Assessing of Non-Residents, Chapter 1, Section 1032

I believe you are saying Exemption Limits will not apply to me, because a Revenue precedent is 'useless'. Why is this?

Thanks for your proposed plan of action, it appears to resolve the 'chicken and egg' situation. Also, I will re-calculate my UK Profit & Loss account, so that my UK accounting period matches my Irish accounting period (1st January to 31st December), though for my first UK trading year this will be a nine month period (April to December 2005 - I had no UK income before April 2005, in which month I registered as self-employed). For UK tax returns, the latest date for both the tax form and tax due is 31st January. However, to avail of UK Revenue's help with calculating the tax due, the form should be returned by 31st September (to guarantee the calculation is done by 31st January). 

For reasons which are not relevant to the current thread (that is, the reasons I've not been very successful in my work this past few years - clue: skills and age), my UK Profit and Loss account for 2005/2006 will show a small loss. Thus, I should have no tax to pay on my UK income (other than minimum self-employed National Insurance, which I already pay monthly by DD). Also, I may not have to pay UK tax on my Irish rental income, unless the UK tax rate for rental income is higher than the Irish rate, in which case I may have to pay the difference as tax here, but my UK income for this period being below the UK exemption limit may help also. 

So, I was hoping to save money by not engaging an accountant here, but by manually completing the tax form, with UK Revenue's help. However, paying an accountant would save me a lot of time and grief, so I'll reconsider that option. In choosing a UK accountant, ideally they should be familiar with the UK & Ireland Double Taxation Agreement. Any suggestions as to how I would find an appropriate accountant?

Likewise, I was hoping to save money by not continuing with the Irish accountant I used while resident in Ireland, but by manually completing Form 11. No, I haven't fallen out with him, so that's still an option. To compose the separate computation you suggest (re the A/B formula for partial Personal Credit), he would need to be familiar with the relevant TCA sections. Of course he probably is, but I was disappointed he didn't offer any advice about such issues when last we spoke. 

One advantage in using an Irish accountant is that my returns might be filed online (unless this facility is for residents only), so I will get the assessment quicker, without me having to chase Revenue. Re your suggestion to write Ordinarily Resident opposite tick box 15 on the form, does the online system provide an area for such comments?

Thanks again for your help and comments.

James


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## ubiquitous (15 May 2006)

James, 

In the above discussion you have not made any mention of the whole issue of how you are affected by the Irish Revenue's treatment of non-resident landlords, specifically the obligation to appoint a "collection agent" in this country to deduct 20% tax on rents received and your tenant's obligation to deduct tax at source if you have not appointed a "collection agent".

Unless you are fully aware of and compliant with these and other relevant rules, then your attempts to save money on your Irish accountant's fees could backfire spectacularly. Be careful out there!


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## JamesUK (15 May 2006)

ubiquitous,

Your point is a very relevant and important one. 

I left Ireland in August 2004, and was deemed tax resident in Ireland for 2004. As my agent did not collect the tax., I declared my rental income in my 2004 returns, as I will again in my 2005 returns. The question is, will Revenue be happy with that method of declaration.

This subject is important to me, and also to other non-resident landlords, so if I may I will discuss this further in a separate thread (under a new subject title) later this afternoon. Please look out for that, and comment further then, if you wish.

James


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## ubiquitous (15 May 2006)

James,

You are technically breaking the law by not observing the rules in relation to appointment of a collection agent and deduction at source and remittance to Revenue of 20% tax on rents. 

You really need to sort this out urgently. Failure to do so could leave you in a very vulnerable position were the Revenue to probe your affairs in any detail.


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## JamesUK (15 May 2006)

ubiquitous,

As promised, I've started another thread this afternoon:

*"Non-Resident Landlord - Management Agency refuses to collect Tax"* 

I would like to move the discussion about rental tax collection there, as others will be interested, and the subject of this thread is different. Hope you won't mind continuing with your welcome comments in the new thread.

Thanks,
James


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## bazermc (15 May 2006)

Hi James

Hope you enjoyed reading the TCA its painfull stuff!

re. the income tax expemtion this may be avalaible, take a read of section 187(2) although the section does not stipulate whether a non resiendent may avail of such exemption revenue have stated by precedent (see earlier comments) that it is available however they will look at "total income" which means irish income plus worldwide income even if not taxed in ireland so in looking at your total inome for 2005 tax year you will look at irish rent, uk trading profits or bank interest earned & dividends received etc... should that figure be less than €5.210 if single or €10.420 if married then the income tax exemption will apply as you noted you will probably have a trading loss for 2005 this would be nil income for the purposes of "total income"  marginal relief is also available if you are slightly over the threshold
unfortunately the uk trading loss may not be offset against the irish rent - i.e loss relief, however this may be available on your uk tax side i have no experience of this but imagine that it is available given the similiarities between uk and irish tax i.e a irish trading loss can be offset against irish rental income etc...

regarding using revenue on line (ros) for the last tax year, 2004, this was not available for non residents i have not started doing returns for 2005 so am not sure if that is still the case may be no harm to ring ros and ask them perhaps you could let me know what they say
number 1890 201 106

in terms of engaging a uk accoutant i would be more inclined to engage a tax specialist he/she should be qualified a chartered tax adviser the institute should be able to provide you with a listing of there members 
[broken link removed]
any CTA worth his/her salt will know the Ireland/UK DTA

dont forget your accounting loss/profit may not be the taxable loss/profit due to adjustments addbacks etc...

i wil post my comments re tax deduction on rents paid to non resident in the new thread

B


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## JamesUK (16 May 2006)

bazermc,

If I understand correctly, you are now hopeful that I 'may' obtain both partial personal credit AND exemption limit relief. If so, it may be wise to employ the services of an accountant in Ireland to ensure this happens. Or, would you recommend I employ a Chartered Tax Adviser in Ireland also?

Looking at a previous post, I may have appeared somewhat mean by seeking to save money on accountant fees. Or, maybe I was simply being 'penny wise, but pound foolish'! If you look at my income, you will see why I was attempting to save money (from every possible angle):

2004 Irish Income [Resident]
Self-employed Income: €630
Rent Profit: €4,100
Savings Interest: €100

2005 Irish Income [Non-Resident, Ordinarily Resident]
Rent Profit: €10,100
Savings Interest: Nil **

2005 UK Income 
Self-employed Profit: Possible small Loss 
Savings Interest: Nil **

** I excluded Irish SSIA and UK ISA accounts, as both are tax free. (Please don't tell me that's not how the opposing tax authorities will view it!) 

I've nothing else to declare - no Pension contributions, Dividends, CGT, etc. So, at face value my two sets of accounts for 2005 are very simple. The complexity arises because of the DTA (and, as discussed in another thread, the complexity of processing rental income tax as a non-resident landlord).

You said: "don't forget your accounting loss/profit may not be the taxable loss/profit due to adjustments addbacks etc..." Could you please explain (by example) what 'adjustments addbacks etc' might typically be, as my initial UK profit/loss figure needs to be as accurate as possible, before I submit my Irish returns.

I separated the discussion on how rental income tax should be declared/paid into another thread, because I considered it to be a different and interesting topic for others. But now it may impact on our discussion here about Form 11. In the other thread, you quoted "In this case, (section 1034 TCA 1997) the agent will be assessed in the name of the non-resident landlord in the same manner as the non-resident would have been assessed if resident in Ireland." On first reading, this suggests the agent completes some tax form in my name, and maybe I don't need to complete Form 11 at all. If so, this will impact on the suggested plan of action (i.e. deferring submission of UK returns until Irish returns are assessed).

Re Revenue Online (ROS), I'm not planning on using it myself, but my Irish accountant used it in 2004 (I was technically resident that year) and previous years.

I checked the web site you referenced, and found about three CTAs in Chichester (where I live). Though none of them mentioned DTAs in their speciality list, they might be knowledgeable about same.

This discussion is a learning process for me. Once I've understood the rules and my options, I will then need to start the ball rolling.

Thanks,
James


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## bazermc (16 May 2006)

Hi James

If you want to engage a tax consultant in ireland i would recommend that he or she be a member of the Irish Taxation Institute it is the equiv of the UK chartered tax adviser qualification


on looking at your income you appear to be able to avail of the income tax exemption - the ssia income i suspect would be excluded although i have not seen written confirmation from revenue on this matter that is the government top up of 25% as that is not taxable income however you would need to include the deposit interest earned on the ssia from the bank/building society in your income calculation 

re. accounting profits differing from taxable profits
although the starting point for calculating your tax liability is profit per accounts there are specific expenses that are not allowable for tax these are contained in section 81 TCA 1997 
For an item of expenditure in the accounts to be deductible it must be:
•Revenue and not capital in nature.
•Incurred wholly and exclusively for the purposes of the trade.
•Not specifically disallowable in law.
examples include depreciation drawings or salary of the owner i.e you, client entertainment, purchase of a capital asset, the list goes on it is neccessary to go through every expense heading and pick out what is dissallowed and add it back thereby increasing your taxable profits or converting a loss back to a profit
on the other side there may be income that is included in your profits that is not taxable such as interest on overpayment of tax etc...this would need to be deducted
on the other hand as you receive no deduction for the cost of asset employed you can write off assets over 8 years in ireland not to sure what it is in uk could be 5 these are called capital allowances again only certian assests qualify for such treament it is section 284 in the tca
the same is true if your rented property in ireland was provided with furniture you would not claim that in the one year instead you would write it off over 8 years - 12.5%
it is because of these rules that most people engage an accountant or if there are affairs are complex a tax specialist

re tax collection by agent
you still need to complete a tax return however if your agent is collecting rent on your behalf they would also need to do so but the issue here is that your agent has to confirm to revenue that they are acting as an agent under section 1034 and not just merely a management company
i may seem really simple to me but the best way around this is to have your rent diverted to a family member or friend in ireland you trust and then have them send it on to you it goes through their bank account first and then onto yours a day later - simple no need to deduct tax etc...however your friend/family would need to submit a yearly return
the hope of the legislature in bringing in this section was to ensure nonresidents pay tax if tax due on there irish rents it is not workable in demanding a tennant to deduct tax and pay it over to revenue its just not workable

regarding engaging a tax specialst near you i would recommend giving them a call and explain your situation and the implications of the double taxation agreement if they have no idea of what you are talking about say goodnight and hang up

hope this helps
Barry


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## JamesUK (17 May 2006)

bazermc,

Apologies for going over some of the same ground again, but I would like to check my understanding in relation to Form 11 and how Irish Revenue will apply rules to my UK and Irish income with regard to any Personal Credit and Income Exemption Limit. Then we should be able to put this thread to bed, unless other non-resident landlords would like to have an input, which I would welcome!

(I am not concerned in this thread with which UK Revenue rules will apply – I can get advice on that here in the UK.)

*Form 11, Question 15: Non-Resident*

I should tick this box, as I’m Non-Resident, but write Ordinarily Resident beside it.

Then, the following will apply (quoting your post on 11/5): 

_an individual who is ordinarily resident in Ireland is taxed as though he was resident in Ireland with the exception of income derived from:_

_(i) a trade or profession no part of which is carried on in Ireland, or_
_(ii) other foreign income which is less than €3,810 per annum, or_
_(iii) an office or employment all of the duties of which are carried on outside Ireland (apart from incidental duties)._

_If an individual is domiciled in Ireland, not resident but ordinarily resident in Ireland, he will be taxed as an Irish resident domiciled individual, subject to the specific exceptions listed above._

(The wording in Section 821 TCA 1997 I downloaded is different, but you probably have access to a more recent ruling.)

*Form 11, Question 14: A citizen of Ireland not ordinarily resident in the state*

I should leave this box un-ticked. You said on 11/5: “question 14 relates to non ord resident individuals who get a portion of credits based on the irish income over worldwide income.”

So our discussion about the A/B income ratio only applies to this category?

After 2007, I will no longer be Ordinarily Resident, but Non-Resident and still domiciled. After 2007, therefore, should I tick both box 14 and 15? 

Does ‘citizen’ here mean domiciled?

*Personal Credit*

Much of our discussion concerned a partial Personal Credit, which may apply because of a precedent, but that I should apply for it in a separate letter.

Having re-read the thread, I’m now confused as to which rule applies, and in which years it applies. 

Am I correct in the following interpretations?

1. While Non-Resident but Ordinarily Resident (2005 – 2007), tick box 15. Section 821 TCA 1997 applies to me, and is automatically applied – I don’t need to write requesting it.

2. When Non-Resident and not Ordinarily Resident (2008 and later) tick both box 14 and 15. The partial Personal Credit rule will apply (A/B income ratio), and I will need to request it in writing.

*Exemption Limit*

Do the same interpretations apply as for Personal Credit above?

*SSIA*

Re your comment on SSIA deposit interest. Because I will still be ordinarily resident in April 2007 (and for 2005 and 2006), I will meet Revenue residency requirements for the SSIA, and so will be able to sign the SSIA4 declaration. When I was resident (up to 2004), my accountant said I didn’t need to declare SSIA deposit interest for those years, and so I assume that advice applies to all years during which I meet Revenue’s SSIA residency requirements. When the SSIA matures in 2007, a tax of 23% will apply to growth on the account, so maybe that growth (interest) will have to be declared in the returns for 2007.

*Tax Collection Agent*

You may be keeping up with the other thread, “Non-Resident Landlord - Management Agency refuses to collect Tax”, and so I don’t wish to discuss it too much here. However, you may have read towards the end, how Ham Slicer finally convinced Casiopea (who receives rent directly from tenants) that he is not breaking the law, but that others are. 

Likewise, though I receive rent via an estate agent (management company), I am probably not breaking the law either, but my estate agent is:

_Where an agent, resident in the State, is appointed by the non-resident landlord to manage the property and the agent is collecting the rents, the rents must be paid gross to the agent. The agent is then chargeable to tax on the rents as Collection Agent for the landlord and is required to submit an annual tax return and account for the tax due under Self Assessment._

Since I already have an agent appointed to manage the property, this agent is responsible for tax collection, and I should not need to appoint another for this purpose. I don’t wish to ask any family member or friend to undertake the responsibility and chore of collecting the tax and submitting a yearly return.

Both Casiopea and I declare and pay the correct tax due on our rental income, and though the process of tax collection is not that required by Revenue, it is others who are not complying with tax law. 

If others reading this have comments about Tax Collection Agents, please add you comments to the other thread, “Non-Resident Landlord - Management Agency refuses to collect Tax”, or to a new thread. Thanks.

James


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## bazermc (18 May 2006)

JamesUK said:
			
		

> bazermc,
> 
> *Form 11, Question 15: Non-Resident*
> 
> ...



Goodluck
B


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## JamesUK (19 May 2006)

Bazermc,

Thanks for your patience, and for being so generous with your time on this thread.

My understanding is still a little fuzzy, in relation to which reliefs (if any) I need to specifically request in writing. Otherwise, I believe you have provided me with all the information I require.

So now, I will see about engaging an accountant or tax consultant in Ireland, one who will ensure I benefit from all reliefs available to me (as far as that's possible, given that Revenue have the final say). Likewise, I'll look for an accountant or tax consultant in the UK.

Finally, you may be interested in what Revenue said to another non-resident landlord. This is paraphrased (and to be confirmed for him by Revenue in writing), as posted yesterday in the other thread (_Non-Resident Landlord - Management Agency refuses to collect Tax_):

_"The obligation to deduct tax rests with the tenant or letting agent not the landlord so there is no penalty that could be levied on you. Given the fact that you have been returning the Rent for income tax purposes it would be very unlikely that Revenue would go after the tennant or letting agent as Revenue are not at a loss."_

This 'unofficial' ruling appears to cover my situation also, so there is no need for me to appoint a Collection Agent.

Bazermc, thanks again for all your help. I trust other readers benefited also.

James


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## JamesUK (22 May 2006)

Today, Revenue finally replied to my original email of 2nd May. The Revenue web site says: “We will reply to 80% of items in clear and comprehensive terms within 20 working days”, and today is ... 20 days later!



> Dear James,
> As you are ordinarily resident you are liable on income and gains from all sources. You do need to complete a Form 11. You would be liable to Irish tax on world income with the following exceptions:
> 
> Atrade or profession which is carried on outside Ireland
> ...


 
With the above, and Bazermc's input, I now have the information I need.

James


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## och aye (21 Nov 2008)

Im an Irish person. Bought a new house in ireland in  may 2007, have an irish mortgage and savings in irish bank. 
Moved to UK  to work for a company and now paying tax in uk.
I return hoem regularly.

Can I get mortgage relief on my mortgage?
Do I make irish tax return?....which form?
Do I make a uk tax return or just allow my company to deduct income tax?
Can I get rent a room relief on my home in ireland? 

Thanks. Hope someone can clarify


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## JamesUK (21 Nov 2008)

och aye,

According to Irish Revenue, upon moving to the UK, you are Ordinarily Resident in the UK for the 1st three years, then Non-Resident thereafter. Did you complete a UK form to declare your residency and domicile status? If you like, I can get the form name and number for you.

_Can I get mortgage relief on my mortgage?_
If you mean UK relief on the Irish mortgage, best phone UK Revenue - they are very helpful.

_Do I make Irish tax return?....which form?_
Only if you have Irish income, e.g. savings interest from Irish banks, rental income. The normal form.

_Do I make a UK tax return or just allow my company to deduct income tax?_
I presume you pay UK tax as a PAYE employee. If you have Irish income, this should be declared to UK Revenue, so you may need to complete the 'Foreign Pages' section of the UK tax form. I may be able to advise you further, as I do this.

_Can I get rent a room relief on my home in ireland? _
If you are working and living in the UK, then you don't normally live in your Irish house (even if you return home regularly), so your Irish home is not your principal residence and room relief would not be available.

James


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## och aye (21 Nov 2008)

Hi Jamesuk

Many thanks.
No I did nt complete  a uk form to declare residency as I intended only to stay for short period.
I understood that if I have been resident in Ireland for previous  three years I would be regarded as an Irish resident for tax purposes,  ( ie resident, ordinarly resident, domiciled not sure of proper tax title )
I wish to avail of Irish tax relief on Irish mortgage as I presume reliefs are higher, esp for first time buyers)
Yes will have Irish income, Irish bank interest, some dividends, rent a room or short term nightly budget rate income from rooms. I probably need to show this on an Irish tax return ( maybe Form 11, self emplyed income?)

Yes I pay UK tax as a paye employee.

Just an idea: if i made a tax return on F11 on my irish and uk income, how would my uk tax be paid to uk revenue?

Thanks
och aye


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## JamesUK (21 Nov 2008)

och aye,

When I moved to the UK in 2004, I discussed some tax issues on this forum. I received some good advice, but also 'opinions'. Problem is telling these apart, as you don't want to make mistakes, which could be costly. You need reliable information, either from revenue themselves, or from an accountant. 

Would you be happy to discuss this briefly by phone?

I am not an accountant, just a tax payer!

James


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## och aye (27 Nov 2008)

Hi James

Many thanks. Sorry about delay in replying but ive been away.

Thanks for offer of phone chat which I be glad to do but I need to get a number of basics sorted with revenue, paye status etc. and then we caan chat.
I see what you mean by getting different views, can be confusing.

It does appear that   you can get rent a room if you are ordinarly resident in ireland but resident and working in uk....irish house is still your home.
Not sure yet if I can get mortage relief on my irish mortgage from my irish bank? I think I can on same basis it is possible.
Also if you are PAYE it is treated different than self employed re reliefs.

So basically Im 
Ordinarliy resident in ireland - i can make irish tax return
resident and working ( paye ) in uk
want to know can I get irish mortgage relief against my uk income ?
want to know can i get rent a room relief on my irish house ( home)
Not sure re treatment of national ins
or pension payment s
or isa ac/s



Thanks again

och aye


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## JamesUK (27 Nov 2008)

och aye,

_It does appear that you can get rent a room if you are ordinarly resident in ireland but resident and working in uk....irish house is still your home._

I'm surprised at this - thought you had to be actually living in the house with the room to rent!

_Thanks for offer of phone chat which I be glad to do but I need to get a number of basics sorted with revenue, paye status etc. and then we caan chat._

A chat earlier may benefit you - I can tell you of my experience with same, and ISAs - but please don't phone until next week - busy for rest of this week!

James


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## och aye (27 Nov 2008)

Hi James

Thanks 

Great, Im busy busy too.

cheers

och aye


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## ajapale (20 Jun 2009)

temp mod bump


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