# Landlord Rights? - PRTB Dispute



## emma09 (14 Sep 2010)

We got tenants in 2005. As we were first time Landlords, didn't really knew how the system worked.

We found out 3-4 months later that Tenants were sub-lettting.  Our property was well looked after and they seem nice people so we didnt say much. 

Then tenants had arguements with each other and one of them left and another guy took over - so we had him as "main person" as point of contact for paying rent / bill etc. 

Everything fine for next 2 years. We increased the rent every year as whatever the going rate was that time. 

Everything OK.  Fast Forward to June 2009.   We got Reduced Rent (about €400 less) from the Tenant in our Bank Account for the month.

Few days later arranged to meet up at the house and speak to the Tenant. He had lots of papers infront of him. He had been touch with Social Welfare / Healthboard.  He was really aggressive. His wife standing in one corner - speaking in her language to the husband.  Both were very aggressive towards me and my husband.

Anyway, tried to ask what happened.  If everything OK.  they told us we were Greedy, Liars, taking too much money off them. and called us all sorts of names.  I was pregnant at the time, I got very upset and cried ( I know, I shouldnt have!) Anyway, we asked what happened?  We were prepared to be flexible with the rent - and had realised finances for people had changed quite a bit for everyone in 2009 - including my husband, who had lost Job since January of 2009. 

After, we all calmed down, the Tenant told us that he had lost Job in January 2009 and the rest of the tenants (whom he was subletting, had gone back to their country - Eastern european).  We said, OK, we understand, why you are upset.  Lets talk on mutually agreeable figure.  He started shouting again!

We tried to reason with them, that they had a lease agreement with us and strictly speaking cannot do anything about it.  The agreement was from January 2009 - January 2010.  

We explained, we are paying Fixed Interest Rate mortgage - a much higher rate than a lot of people paying in 2009, but we couldnt do anything as we had agreement with our Bank. 

They didnt wanted to hear anything and wanted to terminate the contract.  I thought, we had good realtionship with the Tenants and since they are not happy with the Rent and things are tight for them.. lets agree on finishing this agreement and asked them if they wanted to vacate?  and they said YES. So, we said, give us sometime before we can find another Tenant to replace them.  So, we both agreed, *verbally *for the end of the month - 30th June.  It was first week of June, when we spoke. 

They left within 2-3 days and left the keys with neighbours.  Later on, few months later, we got a call from Threshold telling us that we need to pay him back Deposit?  My husband tried explaining to them what happened and that we were left without Tenants for few weeks - had to clean up the place as they left the place in a mess and few things broken.  They didn't wanted to hear this and told us about Tenants Rights.  

My husband half heartdly agreed to paying part of the Deposit back on condition that we wanted to speak to the Tenant Face-to-Face - it never happened.  In the meantime, we have had our own financial problems and to be honest, we left it and didnt hear from them for the last few months. 

Today, we got a letter from PRTB asking us to attend a "Hearing" and we are both worried sick about this.  I cannot believe this is happeneing to us.  We tried our best to look after this Tenant.  He was so nice and polite in the first couple of years.  Always offered us cup of tea.. drink etc.. and all of a sudden due to difficulty paying in rent - he has turned completely opposite.  We know we haven't done anything wrong.  We were prepared to lower down the Rent, as everyone was doing in middle of 2009.  We did not ask him to leave the house in 2-3 days ( he obviously had planned it).  Now we are being told that we are the guilty party.  

The only thing we are guilty of is that we do not have any paper proof of all this.  

I can't find any bank statements to prove that he didnt pay us the full amount in the last month. 

We paid for PRTB in the first couple of years but we didnt pay in 2009 - quite frankly we did not have the money.  All the rent money went towards paying for Mortgage/insurance misc. costs etc.

Now, we are going to be prosecuted for not paying for PRTB - who we all know is there to offer help to TENANTS and not to Landlords. 
Its all such a mess.

What can we do?


Ted his deposit back.


----------



## simplyasking (14 Sep 2010)

Do not worry. Obviously your tenant has brought a case against you withe the PRTB for witholding their deposit.
Ok a couple of questions.
1. Did you have a new lease created and signed each year ?
2. You should get copies of the bank statements from your bank proving the payments that were made to your account.
3. Did you have the tenancy registered with the PRTB - if so you should have a regsitration document.

Once you have all of the documents collected together go to the letter you have received from the PRTB and you will see that as part of it is your chance to put your side of the story to the PRTB. 

Your old tenants will receive a copy of all the documents you send into the PRTB 
and you will be given a chance to attend a hearing at which both sides can give their side of the story. A couple of months later the adjudicator will make his determination and both parties at that stage can appeal to the board of the PRTB.

All of this can take upto 12/18 months depending on various factors outside of your control.

Best thing though is to collect together all of documents you can that relate to this tenancy / deposit issue.


----------



## emma09 (14 Sep 2010)

thanks. 

But you see, that's where the problem is.  I do not have papers with me.   I should be able to find Lease agreements which were signed each year - January of each year. 

I have tried to find bank statements but cannot find anything going back May/June last year.  When I rang the bank, they are charging us a lot of money for duplicate statements.  They only have facility to go back 6months online. 

I am hoping that the board will take our word against the Tenants.  As even they wouldn't have any other papers - same as us.  Lease agreement.

We did not TERMINATE the contract in writing.  I hope this will work in our favour?  But I am not sure, as PRTB seems to work for Tenants and also, the fact we didn't pay for their services last year... it may go against us.. 
so worried...


----------



## pixiebean22 (14 Sep 2010)

Unfortunately, if you didn't pay for their services last year the tenancy was not registered, were you paying all the other costs associated with legally calling yourself a landlord?  I understand registration fees are high but the whole point of registering with the PRTB is for help in these kind of situations, where things go wrong between tenant and landlord.  I hope that if you are currently renting out the property that you are doing everything by the book. 

I would suggest that you pay to get duplicate statements for the relevant months.  A reduced rent repayment and no notification of this to you as landlord will work in your favour and may result in a decision in your favour.

As far as I know, their word and your word don't come into, the PRTB will make decisions based on the facts that are available to them so that is why you should try your best to get the statements.


----------



## Maggs065 (14 Sep 2010)

Why can't you get a bank statement for the month (or week) that the reduced rent was lodged? You may have to pay a few euros for it - but shouldn't be much for a specified short period.


----------



## emma09 (14 Sep 2010)

Thanks again.  Well, we didnt pay for PRTB again this year.  We just do not have the spare money.  Every month, I am counting my cents for doing grocries and paying mortgage, life / health insurance etc... I have been saying since the start of this year.. anytime, I have spare cash, I must pay for PRTB.. but I never have funds to give them the cheque. 

Again, if PRTB is there to help both Landlord and Tenants than half the  money should be given by Tenants and the other half by Landlord as difficulties can arise from both sides.  Anyway, that's another arguement... 

the fact is that we did not give anything in writing to terminate.  We got reduced rent without any knowledge and we were left short of few hundered euros in June 2009. 

Tenants were agressive.  They did bit of damage and took few small things.. cups/plates etc... with them.  They took our Xmas tree with them. 

They left the keys with neighbours and left us - from where I see, we do not owe them anything.  It took us few weeks.. nearly a month to get another Tenant and get the property back in order to rent out again. 

The Tenant made abusive phone calls and left messages on my husband's voice mail  My husband went to Garda Station and reported that, hopefully they will have some record of this and PRTB will look into this. 

I hate conflicts... and at the moment, still worried, if they want us to pay the Tenant.  We do not have the money......


----------



## sam h (14 Sep 2010)

Had you registered these tenants prior to 2009 as from briefly reading your post, they seem to be rolling tenants.

If so, the PRTB only needs to be paid every 4 years if it is with the same tenants (you should have notified them when the others moved out, but you don't have to pay for this if some of the original tenants remain)

Get as much of the paperwork togeather as possible.

I have in in my lease if ANY of the tenants move out or new ones move in, they must notify me immediately, but I still get people swapping around, can be hard to stay on top of especially if you have no real need to be in the house on any sort of regular basis.


----------



## pixiebean22 (14 Sep 2010)

emma09 said:


> Thanks again. Well, we didnt pay for PRTB again this year. We just do not have the spare money. Every month, I am counting my cents for doing grocries and paying mortgage, life / health insurance etc... I have been saying since the start of this year.. anytime, I have spare cash, I must pay for PRTB.. but I never have funds to give them the cheque.
> 
> Again, if PRTB is there to help both Landlord and Tenants than half the money should be given by Tenants and the other half by Landlord as difficulties can arise from both sides. Anyway, that's another arguement...
> 
> ...


 
Tenants are already paying rent, in most cases rent is ridiculously high (even in the current climate), and on top of that to be expected to pay prtb fees is unrealistic. You have the privilege of owning two properties (I assume you own two properties and are not renting a property out and living in rented accommodation yourselves) if you can't afford the legalities that go with being a landlord then don't rent it out, simple. 

I wouldn't worry too much, get the statements, get something from the gardai in relation to the report you made, give the PRTB as much information as possible. Just be up front and honest, that's all you can do. May I ask what you did with the deposit when you found out the house was empty?


----------



## emma09 (15 Sep 2010)

Sam H - is that right that we dont have to pay PRTB for 4 years?  I didnt know that.  We paid the first year.. but after that..the same Tenants with us  for 3.5 years?  
So, am I OK with not paying PRTB when I still had the same Tenants? 

Can you confirm this, please. 

Thanks


----------



## simplyasking (15 Sep 2010)

SamH is correct once you register a tenancy you do not have to re register it again for another 4 years assuming the same tenants are living there. If there have been changes in the tenants names you are supposed to inform the PRTB of the changes (without paying an additional fee)


----------



## emma09 (15 Sep 2010)

Thanks.  I am not sure who exactly was on the Lease when we first rented out as my husband dealt with the guys (Tenants).  Will check and let PRTB know. 

Another problem.!!


Can anyone tell me who pays for this damage.  Our new tenant.. have accidentally broken washing machine door!

We got a text message over the weekend telling us that washing machine door wouldn't open.  Next day my husband went to have a look and the guy had actually broken the door by pulling it too hard. 

He is a young guy and didn't realise you had to wait for couple of minutes after the wash cycle - before you open the door!

Now, we are left with another expense of repairing?  or are we?  

This does not come under normal wear & tear?? 

Any suggestions, please


----------



## WindUp (15 Sep 2010)

poor fellow should leave his laundry to his mother--- i'd expect him to pay for the damage-- what would happen if he accidentally broke a window--


----------



## pixiebean22 (15 Sep 2010)

I think it is the tenant's place to pay up but the deduction should be made from his deposit as this is why deposits are provided.

I would wonder what you plan to do if tenant disputes paying for the broken door, as you've said before you're not registered with the PRTB.


----------



## emma09 (15 Sep 2010)

Pixibean... I dont know what I will do. We got these Tenants through Estate Agents.. hopefully they will speak to him and will get it sorted out for us. I am guessing this is his first Tenancy and maybe he will listen to the Estate Agent.. and own up to his mistake? Wishful thinking on my part!!

Anyone know of any good & CHEAP repair guy?!!!


----------



## AlbacoreA (15 Sep 2010)

Deposits shouldn't be used mid tenancy IMO, only at the end. I'd make the tenant pay the bill. Unless it was a fantastic tenant, then I'd pay for it to keep them happy. use common sense.


----------



## AlbacoreA (15 Sep 2010)

Last time door broke on our washing machine I ordered the hinge from the web via UK cost about €20 and I fitted it in about 30 mins.


----------



## emma09 (15 Sep 2010)

could u pm me the name of the website, please?  I would have thought it would cost us more than that... ??


----------



## AlbacoreA (15 Sep 2010)

I'd have to look at home. I just search for on the machines model name and door hinge or similar. I assume they all wouldn't be the same price or as easily


----------



## AlbacoreA (20 Sep 2010)

I couldn't find it. 

I was something like the following though...( I can't say with confidence it was one of these though)

http://shop.ukwhitegoods.co.uk
http://www.espares.co.uk

Search for the part there. I suspect the main part of the cost of repair is the labour though. Not the parts themselves.


----------



## emma09 (2 Nov 2010)

Ok, I am back to the original problem. 

We attended the hearing with the Tenant. 

We got a letter today telling us not only we owe them deposit (even though he never paid us deposit), we also owe him 300 euros in damages??   Damages for what?

He rang us and threatened us. 
He stole things from our property. 
He damaged the property. 
He left without handing us the key. 

Now, PRTB are saying if we want to appeal this decision, WE NEED TO PAY 40Euros for this service.  What the.... ???

Seriously, I do not have 10 euros spare at the moment and now they are expecting us to pay 40Euros to appeal the decision?  If again, they take Tenant's side.. we will end up paying for more damages....

What do I do now?


----------



## z107 (2 Nov 2010)

Is it possible to bypass the PRTB (who are just for tenants) and use your own solicitor?


----------



## emma09 (2 Nov 2010)

But then I would need to pay Solicitors??


----------



## z107 (2 Nov 2010)

Well maybe you should just sell up then.

Renting a house should be like running a business. Both have overheads, compliance costs and hassle.


----------



## AlbacoreA (2 Nov 2010)

TBH on the face of it deposit + 300 seems cheap to be able to start afresh.

You've very little power legally anymore as a landlord. Its completely in the tenants favour.


----------



## Marietta (2 Nov 2010)

emma09 said:


> thanks.
> 
> I have tried to find bank statements but cannot find anything going back May/June last year. When I rang the bank, they are charging us a lot of money for duplicate statements. They only have facility to go back 6months online.


 

Hi Emma 09,  I think I saw a thread somewhere here where you can request your bank statements under freedom of information and get them free of charge.


----------



## Marietta (2 Nov 2010)

emma09 said:


> Seriously, I do not have 10 euros spare at the moment and now they are expecting us to pay 40Euros to appeal the decision?


 

Seriously Emma, I don't mean to be condescending but I dont think you can really afford this property.  The masses who bought investment properties during the bubble are really being stung at the moment. For many I guess it was a very unwise decision.


----------



## elcato (2 Nov 2010)

I would cut my losses here and come to some arrangement to pay up. On the plus side you got three years of good rent for the property. You can write the loss off to tax so in effect you are not that bad off. This moves the monkey off your back in terms of stress. You have the deposit of the new tenant to give to them at this stage.


----------



## AlbacoreA (2 Nov 2010)

I think you have to balance, the annoyance of paying up vs the stress of keeping this going. I'd write it off as experience and move forward.


----------



## elcato (2 Nov 2010)

> Seriously Emma, I don't mean to be condescending but I dont think you can really afford this property.


To be fair she probably cant afford to sell.


----------



## AlbacoreA (2 Nov 2010)

I think the best option would be to settle with the existing client. Then put a lot of effort into renting the house out properly. Rather than the random way its been handled up to know.


----------



## PaddyW (3 Nov 2010)

Why should you have to pay him back a deposit he never gave you? Did he have written evidence that he paid a deposit?


----------



## alaskaonline (3 Nov 2010)

I would agree regarding the solicitor point someone made here. I understand you can't afford it but maybe your situation falls under the Free Legal Aid Service? Not sure but worth checking out before dismissing it.

2nd) you should be able to get the necessary bank statements for the time frame this tenant lived in your property. If it costs a few bobs, then so it'll be - it's worth it, I think.
3rd) police report. If tenant was reported, the Gards have it on file and can give you a copy or reference number.

Did you do all this at this stage? I've seen you opened your threat in September. At the end of the day (I'm trying not to be too naive here), the PRTB would have to show you proof before demanding the money - did they show you any documents proving the old tenants points/argument? Surely they can't act on hear' say?

For the time being regarding the new tenant - don't be so foolish again by not filing up all useful legal documents such as bank statements, rent contracts, termination agreements etc.!


----------



## round1 (3 Nov 2010)

In your first post you referred to paying part of the deposit back. Now you are saying no deposit was paid ?. A tenant is entitled to prompt return of all or part of the deposit and the PRTB can rule for compensation to be paid if this is not done. You said you left things for a few months so you walked yourself in to this.


----------



## emma09 (3 Nov 2010)

Ok, I will start again. 

We got original Tenant but didnt realise that original Tenant was sub-letting to this Tenant we are having dispute with. 
Current Tenant had dispute with the original tenant and the original Tenant wanted to leave... and we gave him his deposit back.  This guy was his sub-tenant... and we didnt get any deposit from him.  We never had that on the paper.  It is our own stupidity we never changed that on the lease.  

The current tenant told us that he wants to rent the place with his friend and wife/girlfriend and if its OK for him to keep couple of extra guys.  We said.. naively.. OK.. as long as we are getting the Rent plus the house is kept clean.  

At some stage he did make a fuss about not giving him an up-to-date lease document with correct names but we argued, we couldn't keep up with guys coming and staying with you for 2-3 months at a time... so, we left the lease with people staying with him the first year.  We neve amended and copied and signed each year with original names.. our fault.. I know.  But things were OK .. he was fine about it.. 

He told us. .he gets the deposit from the guys .... and its really helps him pay the rent. We were OK with that. Never questioned .. how much he was getting.. as we were "not being greedy"... we thought we were being nice to him!

He lost his job.  Feel sorry for him. He couldnt keep up the payments and his friends/sub-tenants left the country and he was left to pay the rent all by himself.  

Things were tight for us too.  All he had to do was talk to us and speak about reducing rent or tell us, he wanted to vacate and get a cheaper property.  Everything would have been OK.  Its just so frustrating, just because he is a tenant he can walk paying us ONLY HALF of the last month's rent he was there.  And now is expecting us to give him the Deposit which HE NEVER GAVE US.  
Not only that, now PRTB are asking him to pay extra 300 for compensation.. .for what>? 

We did not evict him.  He wanted to leave.  We asked him to give us some time before we can fix the place plus find another Tenant.  He didnt even wait until the month to leave.  He left within 2-3 days.  Now he is claiming we evicted him.  He has no paper-proof of that.  It was only verbal discussion.  But PRTB are telling us that we were wrong to do that as he was our tenant for 3years.. he should have been given longer notice.. something like.. 84 days.. I think.  We didnt give him notice.  He asked to leave.  He left within 2-3 days.  But now we are at fault?????

If I could sell.. I would.  The place is in minus 150K.  I dont have the funds to make up this kind of negative equity. 

Yes, I have learnt my lesson the hard way.  Next time, a tenant will be a tenant and not a friend and will not be let away with small damages to MY PROPERTY.  It will be strictly business.. all in paper.  Yes, I was naive and that is the only thing I am guilty of. 

I gave  new bedsheets / new dishes / new cutlery.  His microwave broke.  Gave him a new one - even though not in contract.  He wanted couple of lamps.. gave him that.  Never questioned - just thought, he is nice guy and talks to us nicely and generally has the house clean.  Lets keep him happy!  Gave him drinks/choclate for xmas and everything.  And he stole our tree the last year he was there.... how mean was that??????


----------



## AlbacoreA (3 Nov 2010)

As soon as you start changing the story you start losing credibility. All this is just not important however. The only question really is, will going the legal route and challenging the PRTB and the tenant be cheaper than paying off the tenant. 

Though for €40 I think its well worth appealing it back to the PRTB. But get someone else to explain it to them. Because your explanation is very unclear, and full of unnecessary details.


----------



## Greta (4 Nov 2010)

AlbacoreA said:


> Though for €40 I think its well worth appealing it back to the PRTB. But get someone else to explain it to them. Because your explanation is very unclear, and full of unnecessary details.



I agree that the explanation is unclear and hard to understand. However, from what I can figure out, the deposit amount was written in the lease and remained there after the change of tenants, even though the second tenant did NOT pay any deposit. So, in other words, the tenant did not pay the deposit but his lease said he did. If this is so, I don't see much point appealing to PRTB - all the tenant has to do is show his lease (with the words "deposit of x amount to be returned at the end of the tenancy"), which is presumably what he did show to the PRTB already. 

300 euro that the PRTB demands as compensation for the tenant doesn't seem worth fighting about to me, it seems easier to pay it and be glad the PRTB don't demand anything higher.

After all, the tenant could have just stopped paying rent and stayed in the house for up to 2 years, before he could be evicted Compared to that, what happens seems a relatively minor issue. 

By the way, the important thing now is to register the current tenancy with the PRTB (if it is not already done) - otherwise the interest on the mortgage is not tax-deductible.


----------



## alaskaonline (4 Nov 2010)

OP - just for understanding purposes:

The main tenant paid deposit
the sub tenant did not pay deposit

the main tenant is on the contract
the sub tenant is not on the contract (due to constant changes)

the sub tenant left and wants a deposit back, correct?


----------



## emma09 (4 Nov 2010)

Main Tenant = A
Sub Tenant  = B

Main tenant (A) paid the deposit and subletted (without our knowledge/permission) to Sub Tenant (B). 

A & B both had arguement and Main Tenant (A ) Left. 

We paid back the deposit to Main Tenant (A) and kept the sub-tenant (B) with us without taking any deposit. 

Sub-Tenant (B) was put on Contract - but he further sub-letted and constantly changed. 

Now Sub-Tenant (B) - who never paid deposit ... but has his name on the contract - wants the deposit back - but he never gave us anything. 
He tells us that he gave the Deposit to Main Tenant (A) , but we paid him back originally. 

Our fault, when we re-did the Lease, we forgot to DELETE the deposit part of the lease and left it as it was for the Main Tenant (A).  
I know its our word against his.. but its still not fair.  

I agree with some other posters, that it is our fault.  We should have kept paper work in order.  I am afraid, if we appeal, we may end up paying even more damage costs. 

But my problem at the moment is.. we cannot afford to pay 1500 Euros. 

What we are planning to do is.. offer PRTB 20Eur a month for next year or two or more... I dont care... if they accept it.. fine... if not.. .tough. 

If they bring us to court.. they will reallise, we genuinely don't have any money left with us after paying... mortgages and bills etc.

But I cannot afford more than 20Euros.. lets see what they say to our proposal.


----------



## Greta (4 Nov 2010)

Emma, it won't help you to dwell on what is "fair" and what isn't. It's not merely your word against the tenant's (tenant B) - he has it IN WRITING in the lease that you also signed that you hold his deposit. While he may be dishonest, you have been very careless, and this is the price you have to pay for it.

It doesn't seem wise to let the PRTB bring you to court - as you will be faced with legal costs then. If the PRTB doesn't accept your offer of 20 euro per month (I'd be surprised if they did, but I don't really know much about their practices), you'd be better off trying to raise the required amount somehow and pay them. Can you not borrow it - maybe from a credit union, bank loan, overdraft? 

It is usually possible for people to survive when their income reduces by more than 20 euro per month. Maybe you'll benefit from filling out the questionnaire in the "Makeover" section of this forum, to see where you could make savings.

And do get hold of 70 euro to register the new tenancy with the PRTB!

At the moment my feeling is that you are still dwelling on the "not fair" issue, rather than going all out to find the required money, pay up and put this behind you.

While I appreciate that finding this money is really hard for you at the moment, you only have to read some other threads on this forum to realise that things could have been much much worse for you.


----------



## Berni (4 Nov 2010)

I would agree with Greta, that you would be better off borrowing the money and putting a line under this. 

The PRTB are unlikely to accept a claim of inability to pay, particularly on the money related to the supposed deposit. 
They have accepted his assertion that he gave you the deposit. Therefore, you should still have that money available, as it wouldn't be yours to spend. Not having it would lead to questions around why you have spent the tenant's money, which you were holding in trust.

That he didn't give you a deposit and you have to find the cash from your own funds is very unfortunate, but not something they are likely to entertain.


----------

