# Separation Advice



## Anotherguy (20 Feb 2021)

Hi all

My marriage isn’t going great and despite exhausting all the options to save it appears we have reached the end.

We have had discussions and agree in principle to separate amicably with both children going to live with their mother.
I have a very close relationship with my children and I want to continue have a fair share of my parental responsibilities i.e. having them over agreed days, maintainance payments etc.

We bought a house 2 ½ years ago with the Help-To-Buy (HTB) scheme and apart from this financial commitment we have no other assets.
The HTB scheme stipulates at least one of the owners has to live in the property for 5 years after which period we can sell without needing to pay anything back to Revenue.  If the house is sold or rented within the 5 year period there is a "clawback" amount we have to pay back to Revenue.
Aside from the house we have agreed to clear the remaining debt of less than 5000 Euro soon as possible.
We have 2 children aged 8 & 13 and both work full time.
My mother lives with us and supports with every day chores, taking the children to school which also allows both of us to work full-time.

I understand that we have to complete an Affidavit of Means but beyond this point I don’t know which approach to consider for separation.

Looking at my situation (I think) the main sticking point is what to do with the house and what would be the best approach that it is fair to both parties? I have no problem with legally paying support to my children


Thanks for your time


----------



## Thirsty (20 Feb 2021)

I'm sorry for this trouble in your life; separation / divorce is very tough on everyone.

The Help to Buy conditions aren't really relevant just yet.

Settlements will vary as every family's situation is different. So the following is very much a general guidance. First and foremost in any settlement will be the welfare of the children.

Your children are still at primary/secondary school, so I would expect they will continue to live in the family home until the youngest child is 18 / 23 if in full time education. Often the settlement terms will include the requirement that the house is sold at that point & the proceeds divided.

Your wife will continue as their primary carer & so will also remain in the family home.

Where your mother will live is something you'll have to work out between you.

You will need to pay child maintenance, which is based on both parents income & outgoings. 

Given that your youngest child is 8 years old & therefore you could be looking at 15 years before the property might be sold; it would be worth considering if your wife could afford to buy out your share in 3 years time.

Two bits of advice at this point; lockdown has been incredibly tough on everyone. On the assumption that there is nothing untoward going on (violence / addiction etc) I would consider looking at marriage counselling if you can.

If you do decide to separate, then hasten slowly. Get the maintenance & access in place, focus on making your children feel secure. Leave the hare sit for a year.


----------



## Anotherguy (20 Feb 2021)

Hi Thirsty

Thank you for taking the time to advice. It is very helpful to me. I totally get your last point but it is getting to a point where perhaps separation is the only workable solution. All that said never say never.
There has never been any kinda of animosity or violence in the marriage and essentially is boiling down to the fact that we have grown into 2 different people.

As a general guide about the house does it mean that I have to pay a certain amount towards the mortgage until such time the terms of the house come to an end? I know this would be separate to child support.
As for my wife buying out my share in 3 years I am not sure that will be possible and if I was a betting man unlikely to be the case from a financial point of view.

Would there be an option of selling the house now if my wife is amenable to the idea, or is this not the case when underage children are involved? Please understand I am in no way looking for an easy way out here, just want to understand what are all the options if any?

Either way I plan to move out and my mother would be living with me. She is dependent on my support financially and healthcare etc.

Indeed my first priority is to ensure child support and access to them is sorted out before taking any further steps

once again thank you for your help


----------



## Thirsty (20 Feb 2021)

If the family home is sold where will your children live?


----------



## Anotherguy (20 Feb 2021)

Hi Thirsty

It would be against my better judgement to leave my children in more turmoil if the family home was to be sold and not something I would consider as my choice at all.

On the mortgage front is it usually the case that the payment is split in half or does this depend on what legally binding agreement we reach? We don’t have any other assets

Many Thanks


----------



## Thirsty (20 Feb 2021)

So if you want 50% of the equity if / when the family home is sold, then you'll need to pay 50% of the mortgage.

There's nothing to stop you reaching other arrangements; but so long as your name is on the mortgage, you'll likely not be able to get another mortgage to buy somewhere to live yourself.

Just to point out, I am not a lawyer, at some point you will have to get the legal stuff done & you should take advice at that time.


----------



## Anotherguy (20 Feb 2021)

Many Thanks Thirsty

You’ve been very helpful in giving general guidance to have some idea of what to expect. Of course formal legal representation will be the only way forward for everyone’s benefit if or when it gets to that point

Regards


----------



## phoenix53 (21 Feb 2021)

Hi Anotherguy.  I'm sorry you find yourself in this position.  Its a very difficult time for everyone.  I've experience  seeing this happen within our extended family.  

I agree with Thirsty, the children's welfare is of the utmost importance.  However, I would also say that so is yours and your partners.  For children to see one parent struggle, particularly, when it comes to accommodation, is heartbreaking.  It can cause worry and anxiety that if it can be avoided should be.  I don't know what the answer is,  but just don't think you don't matter in all of this, you do.
Do your best to keep it amicable.  Don't try and bleed each other dry either emotionally or financially.  Seek mediation (before you get into the big bucks advice) and then seal it legally.

I see it is more complicated with your Mum having to be considered.  I think, rightly or wrongly, that your first priority is you, your partner and your children.  Mum will need to slot into the outcome.

Wise advice from Thirsty, hasten slowly.


----------



## Anotherguy (21 Feb 2021)

Thanks Phoenix53,

My children are the utmost priority and I would like to be as supportive as I can be so that they are secure financially and have a roof over their heads.

Feelings aside for now, I am trying to look at my situation logically with the kids safety in mind. It makes sense that the only way to ensure your kids are secure is to be fair to my wife and myself. I really don’t have any animosity against her but just the sadness of a failing marriage. This is really a turning point where I feel if there isn’t a change in the relationship will only end up damaging everyone much worst.

My mother isn’t really an issue because expenses towards her is my problem if and when formal separation occurs.  I have no problem shouldering this responsibility even though it won’t be a walk in the park. Up to this point we have been sharing expenses and support for our family including my mother jointly 50/50 and it has worked great. Namely my mother looking after the children and the house whilst both of us having the freedom and worry-free to work full time including the unmeasurable quality time of the grandma experience for the kids.  This has been a winner for all parties involved.

Many thanks


----------



## robert 200 (21 Feb 2021)

Hi Anotherguy ,
I was in a similar position to yourself many years ago. The best advice I received at the time was that I simply couldnt afford to separate .

No judge is going to agree to the sale of your home with  an 8 + 13 year old living there. You will be forced to continue making contributions to
the mortgage and pay maintenance for your children.

Based on your remaining finances you will probably end up renting a flat and your children will be reluctant to visit .

My advice is to sit down with your wife and agree a 5 - 7  year plan whereby  you could purchase an apartment  ( a safe distance from your home )
and maintain a reasonable standard of living for yourself .

This worked for me , it wasnt easy at the time but the end result was worth it for all parties .

I wish you well


----------



## Anotherguy (21 Feb 2021)

Hi Robert200

Thanks for the advice especially going through this yourself.

In terms of your solution what do you mean by buying an apartment and cut a 5-7year deal? How does this differ from me continuing to pay an agreed amount of mortgage and child support, move out and rent an apartment? Wouldn’t it be the same thing in terms of accommodation type for my children to come and visit?

I am just trying to get as much information so I have an understanding of what different ways to to go about it

Many Thanks


----------



## robert 200 (21 Feb 2021)

Hi Anotherguy

The 5 - 7 year deal is to enable you to buy an apartment or try and accumulate some finances for yourself going forward . If you can afford to pay a mortgage , pay your mother , pay maintenance , pay rent and still have enough for your own living expenses then go for it  ( I couldnt )

Robert


----------



## Anotherguy (21 Feb 2021)

Thanks Robert

I see what you mean but given my age in mortgage terms I would need to have considerate amount of savings to be able to buy another apartment. In 5-7yrs time my chances of being approved a mortgage are pretty slim I would think (I would be in my late 40s by then).


My mother would be living with myself and the only hope I have going the legal route is that the share of financial responsibilities is fair and of course keeping the focus on the welfare of the children.

Considering Thirsty’s guidance above would the court’s view be that I pay full mortgage of my family home and child support too or would the mortgage payments be based on a deal me and my wife agree on?

Regards


----------



## Anotherguy (18 Mar 2021)

Hi there,


I have taken some of the advise here on board and so far we are making the best of the terrible situation of going our separate ways. 



Thankfully we have been in communication trying to figure out what the terms of the separation in principle may look like in draft before we approach the respective solicitors to progress this further. That includes the welfare of the kids, mortgage payments, child maintenance and child access.  Thankfully we have no other assets to work out. 



One question that’s on my mind is what would happen if I have to move out before a legally binding separation agreement is in place? Would this action affect my legal stand in relation to the ownership of the house? Please understand this is not a selfish financial gaining question but rather me trying to have an idea of what would be the potential issues that may arise.



Thank you in advance


----------



## Thirsty (19 Mar 2021)

If you can maintain a reasonable level of cordiality; the best advice is to stay there for now.

Agree some ground rules while you are in this position, give each other space.

Talk to your children together, they will know something is up. Keep it simple and don't make promises you can't keep.


----------



## Anotherguy (19 Mar 2021)

Thank you Thirsty

We are already doing most of what you have suggested and talked to the kids that we need to give space to one another as parents and discussed the possibility of me moving out.For now we are living in separate rooms and it seems to be going fine. I don’t want to rush things either but I suppose preparing for a worst case scenario if things go south is something I worry about.

All that said, I wanted really to get an idea that if I have to move out before a legal agreement is formalised will this be seen as me “deserting” the family

many thanks


----------



## Thirsty (19 Mar 2021)

These days not so much; it's a rather old fashioned view point.

There are always those who will advocate that staying put strengthens your case; and whilst it gives leverage, I'm not seeing parents being penalised.

In any event, nothing you agree has legal standing without court orders.


----------



## Anotherguy (3 Apr 2021)

Apologies for reopening this thread but somehow the previous one is locked. 

As things go we seem to have hit a stumbling block which is money (alway money). We are still living under the same roof whilst I plan to move out.

I wanted to get a general idea of what would be an approximate reasonable child payment figure based on affordability when:

Myself:
Earn €3200 take home
Rent €1250+bills
Pay mortgage of family home €650
Pay pension and health insurance
Broadband & mobile
Average Car & related costs
Money to live on (basic on a budget)
My parent also will be living with me (parent dependent on me and was awarded permission to stay in the state on such grounds for the last 5 years)
No other income

Spouse:
Currently working full time earning €2200 take home but looking to go part-time and earn €1200 take home (could work more but chooses not to)
She’ll live in the family home with 2 kids aged 7 & 12.
Broadband & mobile
Average Car & related costs
Money to live on (basic on a budget)

I would have the kids minimum 2 nights a week (spouse’s choice) although offered to have them more often (I would have them 24/7 if I could). 
School holidays I would have them longer i.e. full 1 or 2 weeks.
Extra expenses split 50/50 and pay as they come. 


I’m in no illusion that I will need legal advise but any general guidance would be appreciated


----------



## Brendan Burgess (4 Apr 2021)

The thread was closed for two reasons unrelated your posts.

1) Someone else added their case to your thread - I have now deleted their posts and the replies to them

2) Others went into an irrelevant off-topic rant. 

Folks

If you want to reply to this thread , reply only to the OP's questions.

And stay on topic.

Brendan


----------



## Thirsty (4 Apr 2021)

I understood from earlier posts that your mother helped out in regards to childcare.

So when you and your mother leave; one adult will have to fill in the space of three. Reducing work hours is to your children's benefit.

If your former wife continues working full-time, you will have to add additional childcare costs.

Have a read of this, it was published in relation to Insolvency, but it gives a guideline as to what is viewed as reasonable living expenses.

[broken link removed]

Your affidavit of means will require actual figures; do up a spreadsheet for yourself.

Splitting 'other expenses' is a guaranteed path to rows in the future.  Factor in as much as you can for now; maintenance can always be reviewed.

Edit to add: access is a separate item, don't conflate the two.


----------



## Anotherguy (4 Apr 2021)

Thanks for your reply

Link you sent isn’t found

My mother has been helping and factoring in childcare would be part of the affidavit but my point has always been that I’m willing to shoulder some of these costs by means of having the children more often. In my view this would be a two fold benefit whilst reducing costs and keeping some normality for the children for all concerned. I am lucky that I can change my working hours to enable greater flexibility.

I see what you mean regarding “splitting of extra expenses” and yes I have already started a spreadsheet outlining all my projected expenses once I move out.


----------



## Thirsty (4 Apr 2021)

I've updated the link to the main site, you should be able to find the doc yourself with a search.


----------



## Anotherguy (4 Apr 2021)

Thank you


----------

