# We need to move but can't afford the costs of moving



## Brendan Burgess (8 Feb 2004)

Originally posted by Potential Mover:

We desperately want to move house because of a dreadful landlord that we have next door.

To get something better we would probably need to spend about 400,000 (good quality family house) but I think the stampt duty would be about 30,000 on this. I understand the extras (solicitor, estate agent ............) would be about 20,000. 50,000 just to move before we get in and have to possibly decorate. That's an outrageous amount of money just to move and that we cannot possibly afford. So here we are stuck in a house that we want to get out of!

Will this Government ever look at situations like ours and possibly take pity on people or is that too much humanity to expect? 

MAC replied:

 Hi Potential Mover,


For what it's worth I fully agree, 30k of stamp duty for an ordinary house is crazy and inhibits movement in the market. In the UK I think stamp duty is something like 1% so you can calculate the difference.

Sorry about your plight but I think the answer is that the govt. are extremely unlikely to change this situation.

MAC


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## Brendan Burgess (8 Feb 2004)

Hi Potential Mover

We included this point in our Pre Budget submission - that stamp duy should only be paid on the extra cost of a house. So if you move from a 300k house to a 400k house, you should pay stamp duty on the 100k.

The biggest cost of moving is stamp duty. To buy a 2nd hand house for €400k will cost you 7.5% or €30k. If you buy a new house, there will be no stamp duty. 

The other costs should be:
Auctioneers fees selling house:  €5k
aDvertising selling house           €1k
Solicitors fees on sale              €1k
Solicitors fees on new house     €1k
Movers                                  €1k

Total extras                            €10k

So if you buy a new house, you could move for as little as €10k before decoration. Which is only around 2% of the value of the house. This is nothing in the context of the recent increases in house price rises. 

By the way, what's so bad about your next door landlord? Is there any way to deal with him?

Brendan


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## daltonr (16 Feb 2004)

> Will this Government ever look at situations like ours and possibly take pity on people



No



> or is that too much humanity to expect?



Yes.

But when they knock on your door prior to the upcoming elections and tell you that they are working to reduce the cost of houses.  Point out that they are lying and tell them to get off your property.  You paid enough for that privilage.

The AAM proposal is completely sensible, but I think we all know in our hearts it hasn't a snowballs chance in hell of 
happening.

Have you thought about moving abroad?  Drastic I know, but 
it might be an option.

-Rd


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## potentialmover (17 Feb 2004)

Thank you all for your helpful replies.

It is soul destroying to think that the Govt. only want to make more easy money and could not care less about the plight of the ordinary everyday folk but such is life in Rip off Ireland these days.

Our landlord only thinks about money and constantly puts young tenants (loud music lovers, no concept of keeping the house clean, noisy partygoers, never put out rubbish and so on and so on).  We have tried on many occasions to sort the situation out but he keeps on saying that its between us and the tenants.  I would stress that some of the tenants have been very nice and we have had no problems but generally find that a lot of tenants could not care less about the property.

The Gardai have helped out on occasions and eventually we might go down the road of the district court route but would prefer not to have to do so.

Once again thank you for your help and concern and by the way Mr. Burgess best of luck with your campaign - I saw the details on teletext this evening.


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## darag (19 Feb 2004)

i know it probably wouldn't be popular but i'd much prefer
them to completely scrap stamp duty and replace it with
a property tax - something small like .25% of the property
or whatever.  even if it was revenue neutral it would improve
the market by not punishing people for trading their property.
also i dunno why someone who owns a property worth three 
quarters of a million say but earning 30k should pay a half 
the tax that someone who doesn't own anything but earns 
10k more per annum than them.


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## daltonr (19 Feb 2004)

[/quote]i'd much prefer them to completely scrap stamp duty and replace it with a property tax[/quote]

I'd agree with this, I'd have a few reservations about double charging, I.e. Local authorties putting levies on new builds, and the owners then having to pay property tax as well.  But that could be worked out.



> something small like .25% of the property
> or whatever



I wonder if linking it to property value is a good idea.  Would it be better to link it to the size of the plot of land, or the size of the building.  Property values fluctuate, and unless you actually sell the house the value is just an opinion.  Not a good basis for tax.

Linking to the plot of land would encourage more dense housing.

Whatever the alternative something has to be done.  It makes no sense that some people can't afford to trade down to a smaller house, which is the case at present.

Of course given that in our area the annual Bin charges are €400, and that is not solely being used for waste management some would argue that we already pay a tax to local authorities.

If past experience is anything to go by, we'll end up with Stamp Duty, Bin Charges, AND a Property Tax.

-Rd


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## darag (20 Feb 2004)

hi daltonr, actually yes, perhaps some more objective
measure like floor area and/or site size would be better. 
however there must be some link to the value of the 
property; it simply wouldn't be fair to have someone in a 
relatively poor rural area in a house worth 70k paying more 
than someone with an 800k three bed in ballsbridge.


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## Rose (20 Feb 2004)

*>*

Could you tell me where the houses are for 70k - all right they maybe only worth 70k or less  but you will not get an autioneers or sellers asking for less than double that amount.


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## daltonr (20 Feb 2004)

*Re: >*

Like anything else I suppose it'd be very hard to find a solution that's fair.  If people are paying Income Tax, PAYE, PRSI, Health Levy, Car Tax, VRT, Bin Charges, Development Levy on New Builds, VAT, Stamp Duties, etc, etc, etc....

It's hard to justify the fairness of another recurring property tax, attempting in some way to use the location or size of a property as a proxy for wealth.

No, the more I think about it, we need better value for money on existing taxes, not new taxes.

Changes along the lines proposed in the AAM budget submission are needed, where Stamp Duty is only paid on the difference in value between the house sold and the house bought.  

The problem with taxes is that it's much easier to raise them than to find savings in existing spending.  Giving in to tax rises without a fight makes government lazy.  

-Rd


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## suehim (25 Feb 2004)

*Sue to landlord next door*

Look into sueing the landlord next door for the cost of your move.
I'm sure a solicitor could advise you on this one.
If he makes it impossible for you to live there then you should really be entitled to the cost to you of getting some peace


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## MAC (25 Feb 2004)

*I wouldn't bother....*

Don't really think this is worth persuing....

MAC


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## Tommy (25 Feb 2004)

*Re: I wouldn't bother....*



> Changes along the lines proposed in the AAM budget submission are needed, where Stamp Duty is only paid on the difference in value between the house sold and the house bought.



In order to be "revenue-neutral", ie to neither raise or reduce the amount of Stamp Duty collectable, surely Stamp Duty rates would have to increase to compensate - thus negating the purpose of the entire exercise.



> Giving in to tax rises without a fight makes government lazy.


Is it possible to resist any tax rises that occur (eg stamp duty on credit cards), except by illegal evasion?


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## daltonr (26 Feb 2004)

*Re: I wouldn't bother....*



> Is it possible to resist any tax rises that occur (eg stamp duty on credit cards), except by illegal evasion?



First of all you can't illegaly evade the CC tax, they've gotten clever enough now to pick your pockets rather than ask for tax.


But to answer your broader question.  Personally, I don't think so, If a government is willing to put up with the fallout then you can't stop it.  A case in point being the Credit Card Tax.  But that's no reason not to kick up a fuss.  

When stupid or unfair taxes are introduced the legislators need to be challenged.  I've not heard one media interview asking Charlie to justify the CC Tax and it's obvious deficiencies.  Not one question in one interview.  

I've not heard one journalist force Mary Harney to reconcile her pronouncements on shopping around and competition, with her governments tax on shopping around for a Credit Card.

I don't like advocating breaking the law, and as yet I haven't gone down this road, but I would have to admit if you want to get a government to listen and repeal a tax or another law, the the only way to do it is civil disobedience, e.g. Poll Tax in Britain.

I am firmly of the opinion that "normal" channels such as deputations, petitions, lobbying, etc, are just ways of keeping people humoured while the government gets on with doing what it likes.  A day of civil unrest or even the threat of it achieves more than a decade of lobbying, as Farmers, Gardai, Consultants, Nurses, Train Drivers, Teachers, and numerous other groups have discovered over the years.

We haven't reached the point in this country where consumers will go on strike and cause trouble.   But if things keep going in the way they are.....?

I have 100% the opposite opinion of "engaging in the political process" now as compared with then I was in college.  I know rebellion should go in the other direction.

Attending strategy meetings before a general election can have a very sobering effect.

-Rd


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## Tommy (26 Feb 2004)

*Re: I wouldn't bother....*



> if you want to get a government to listen and repeal a tax or another law, the the only way to do it is civil disobedience



I have never seen the likes of ICTU's David Begg undertaking civil disobedience, and yet so much of current govt policy seems to be dictated by the trade unions and other social partners.



> A day of civil unrest or even the threat of it achieves more than a decade of lobbying, as Farmers, Gardai, Consultants, Nurses, Train Drivers, Teachers, and numerous other groups have discovered over the years.



Why then do the likes of the IFA, IBEC and the trade unions spend millions each year on maintaining elaborate PR and lobbying machines?

The threat of civil unrest can often work against a particular interest group by alienating public support for their cause - Joe Higgins' bin protest, ASTI & ILDA are useful examples.


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## fatherdougalmaguire (26 Feb 2004)

*Re: I wouldn't bother....*

Can someone please explain stampy duty to me?

More importantly, can somebody please please justify it?

I'll piggy-back this by making some uneducated assumptions. For a start, I assume that (residential) stampy duty has always been around. It might have been a reasonable and excusable amount when property prices were a fraction of peoples take home pay. However, now that the reverse prevails, how can it be justified?


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## rossie (26 Feb 2004)

*stamp duty on new houses*

So new houses are free still from stamp duty? - I thought I read somewhere that the government had plugged that gap, but I'm probably mixed up with something else. Is there a limit to the value of the house that qualifies?

How do the authorities classify a "new house" for stamp-duty purposes? Does it have to be a house built by a registered builder or something? What if I buy a new bungalow from a farmer/part-time builder which he has built on a plot of his own land? - is that treated the same?

Thanks.


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## daltonr (26 Feb 2004)

*Re: stamp duty on new houses*



> Why then do the likes of the IFA, IBEC and the trade unions spend millions each year on maintaining elaborate PR and lobbying machines?



Obviously there's a difference between an organisation that has millions to spend and an individual who doesn't.   The fact that these wealthy organisations still have to resort to causing trouble shows how effective an individual with no money or connections would be if they tried to do it by the book.

A considerable amount of those millions goes into keeping the public on side so that they don't get pissed off when you drive tractors through their streets.

I don't know if Joe Higgins alienated anyone who wasn't already alienated.  The nearest equivalent would be the The Poll Tax in the UK which brought down a Prime Minister.  Do you think she'd have just agreed to drop the tax if they had politely lobbied her?  Maybe a petition would have done the trick.

You are right though, there is a much better way to get things changed, but unfortunately it's not open to most of us.
If you have enough money you may be able to get certain laws changed, tax incentives introduced, mantained and expanded.  I guess the fact that Joe Higgins and numerous others went very swiftly to jail over the Bin Charges, but nobody went to Jail at all over say.... The Beef Tribunal probably explains it all.

Oh!  I tell a lie, I think the journalist who broke the Beef Tribunal Story may have spent some time in jail.

-Rd.


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## <A HREF=http://pub145.ezboard.com/baskaboutmoney.s (26 Feb 2004)

*Re: stamp duty on new houses*



> So new houses are free still from stamp duty? - I thought I read somewhere that the government had plugged that gap, but I'm probably mixed up with something else. Is there a limit to the value of the house that qualifies?



New properties bought by owner occupiers are exempt from SD if they have a DoE floor area certificate (basically as long as they're under 125sqm). There is no price limit although the floor area condition will probably have an impact on the effective max price that qualifies.



> How do the authorities classify a "new house" for stamp-duty purposes? Does it have to be a house built by a registered builder or something? What if I buy a new bungalow from a farmer/part-time builder which he has built on a plot of his own land? - is that treated the same?



As far as I know it's the TRANSFER into the new owner's name that attracts SD so even if you build one yourself the SD issue arises (or not in the case of exemption) when the legalities are dealt with.

[broken link removed]


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## nochance (27 Feb 2004)

*Is it just me.*

Is it just me or did i read this thread as someone looking for help/advice.  Now the thread has been hijacked by a bunch of eejits too dumb to stay on topic, having an argument about absolutely nothing to do with the first post.
Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeze


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## sueellen (28 Feb 2004)

Actually no chance potential mover's question was answered elsehwere hence their thank you post above.

Brendan Burgess, _founder of askaboutmoney_ has copied the post to 'Other Financial Issues' to enable all to discuss the subject of stamp duty separately.

The thread has appeared to stay on topic 'stamp duty' and it would be appreciated by all if you could refrain from name calling such as 'hijacked by a bunch of eejits'


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