# Cutbacks by Lenihan



## ccbkd (8 Jul 2008)

What are your opinions on same, no pay increases for Ministers , Civil Servants and Judges, a review of Tribunal costs which was an obvious one but did need to be kicked into touch also it seems consultantcy fees to be slashed which will of course will have an adverse affect on private sector, no major mention of a curbing of NDP which will be a relieve to construction sector, It looks like 2009 will be a helluva tight year!!


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## fredg (8 Jul 2008)

"we all need to tighten our belt".....
that'll be next,cant wait to hear what IBEC and SIPTU have to 
say on all these cutbacks.would'nt say they'll be delighted.
2009 is gonna be interesting no doubt alright.
F


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## dockingtrade (8 Jul 2008)

the govt should issue licenses for Incenerators or Biosgas plants (make power from our sh&t). This would give much needed employment and wouldnt cost them a penny. Tax take goes up, utility bills go down (hopefully) more dispossable income for everyone VAT take goes up.


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## leesider29 (8 Jul 2008)

well decentralisation has been knocked on the head, about time it was a shambles anyway. Ministers, judges etc not receiving their raises, maybe they should take the 3% cut like they are saying to other departments. Seriously though the biggest problem and black hole is the HSE and that needs to be tackled immediately.

They still seem to be saying that capital projects will not be affected but I have heard that for example on the N8 motorway project all weekend and late shift work has been stopped and a good few have been let go........not great news for the construction industry yet again. Seems like they will be delivered but possibly not on time.


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## Brianne (9 Jul 2008)

Does anyone else think that to cut the overseas aid having already raised the allowances for public sector workers for mileage etc is just the lowest of the low? I am a public sector worker and lots of my colleagues would go along with all the necessary measures such as pay freeze etc if same is applied to all sectors, across the board , from the top down.
The decentralisation plans resulted in huge increases in travel claims , the electronic voting machines are still being stored, the likes of Iarnroid Eireann(heavily subsidised by taxpayers) are still spending fortunes telling us they're getting there;my point is that there is a lot  of excess fat in the system that could be cut without taking aid from some of the poorest people on the planet.


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## aircobra19 (9 Jul 2008)

I thought decentralisation wasn't going to cost any money with all the money they'd get from selling buildings etc. Now its cost cutting to get rid of it? No specifics about how much this will save. Vague as usual. 

I think they need to look at the value for money they get for every euro spent especially on building projects where we seem to be paying far more than we should.


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## ubiquitous (9 Jul 2008)

Brianne said:


> Does anyone else think that to cut the overseas aid having already raised the allowances for public sector workers for mileage etc is just the lowest of the low? ..



No, actually. There are serious governance issues in many of the third world countries that receive Irish overseas aid. It is only right that great care is taken in allocating this expenditure including being willing to make cutbacks if the money spent is not yielding the equivalent value compared to other government spending.


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## aircobra19 (9 Jul 2008)

You only have to look at Zimbabwe


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## jimbob1234 (9 Jul 2008)

Brianne said:


> Does anyone else think that to cut the overseas aid having already raised the allowances for public sector workers for mileage etc is just the lowest of the low? I am a public sector worker and lots of my colleagues would go along with all the necessary measures such as pay freeze etc if same is applied to all sectors, across the board , from the top down.
> The decentralisation plans resulted in huge increases in travel claims , the electronic voting machines are still being stored, the likes of Iarnroid Eireann(heavily subsidised by taxpayers) are still spending fortunes telling us they're getting there;my point is that there is a lot of excess fat in the system that could be cut without taking aid from some of the poorest people on the planet.


 
brianne - we have had this discussion before. its not a pay freeze, you will still get your increment this year. a pay freeze is when your salary stays the same, this is what happens in the private sector (the real world). so please stop calling it a pay freeze , its just a deferring of the new bench marking. the public sector have no idea what a pay freeze is


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## p45 (9 Jul 2008)

I think 100 million for a new National Theatre in the docks shou,d go for a hop.


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## aircobra19 (9 Jul 2008)

jimbob1234 said:


> brianne - we have had this discussion before. its not a pay freeze, you will still get your increment this year. a pay freeze is when your salary stays the same, this is what happens in the private sector (the real world). so please stop calling it a pay freeze , its just a deferring of the new bench marking. the public sector have no idea what a pay freeze is


 
Because no one in the Public Sector has ever worked in the Private. 

Are these not proposals rather than facts?


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## badabing (9 Jul 2008)

leesider29 said:


> well decentralisation has been knocked on the head, about time it was a shambles anyway. Ministers, judges etc not receiving their raises, maybe they should take the 3% cut like they are saying to other departments. Seriously though the biggest problem and black hole is the HSE and that needs to be tackled immediately.
> 
> They still seem to be saying that capital projects will not be affected but I have heard that for example on the N8 motorway project all weekend and late shift work has been stopped and a good few have been let go........not great news for the construction industry yet again. Seems like they will be delivered but possibly not on time.



Decentralisation is not knocked on the head. Theres talk about some postonement. Alot of the offices are built already.


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## aircobra19 (9 Jul 2008)

Or land bought, but buildings not built. No idea of costs or savings as usual. Someone lend them a calculator...


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## Purple (9 Jul 2008)

The problem of course is that the HSE and various government and public sector bodies will cut the highest profile areas. For example when the HSE imposes cuts on a hospital they close wards rather than trying to cut admin and supplier costs. That way headlines are generated and idiots protest about the government closing wards so no pressure is put on the hospital to streamline its management and admin functions and put pressure on suppliers to generate and pass on efficiencies. This problem occurs all across the public sector.


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## csirl (9 Jul 2008)

I cant see how the public sector pay bill can be cut by 3% without a reducing staff numbers. Given the age profile of the public sector, it will be difficult to achieve this through natural wastage in 1 year.


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## jimbob1234 (9 Jul 2008)

aircobra19 said:


> Because no one in the Public Sector has ever worked in the Private.
> 
> Are these not proposals rather than facts?


 

are what just proposals ?  it has never been suggested that the public sector is to get no increments this year. the suggestion is to postpone benchmarking. that is not a pay freeze so why call it one


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## Sunny (9 Jul 2008)

Lets not start the whole Private V Public sector debate again. Its been done to death.

Yesterdays announcement was a PR exercise. There was no detail so I guess we will have to see what the various ministers are going to do to see how realistic their aims are.


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## aircobra19 (9 Jul 2008)

jimbob1234 said:


> are what just proposals ? it has never been suggested that the public sector is to get no increments this year. the suggestion is to postpone benchmarking. that is not a pay freeze so why call it one


 
None of what you are saying is definate. Even if very likely. So they are just proposals at this stage. They only said that 3% would be cut from the wage bill. Not how that was to be achieved. Targeted redundancies is mentioned for the HSE and that (and a real recruitment freeze) is more likely how they'll do it. Rather than going near the agreed benchmarking. However they could pospone indefinately any outstanding benchmarking. I didn't see any mention of increments. Where are people getting that from?


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## jimbob1234 (9 Jul 2008)

public sector workers get increments every year, this is nothing to do with the new bench marking. these increments are still going ahead so the term "pay freeze" is a joke. the 3% will probably be achieved by cutting of contract workers and recruitment freeze. i just want to get the point across that a public sector worker will earn more this yr than last and more nxt year than this yr regardless of this debate. thats the way their increments work. the increments range from 800 to 2500 per year

any outstanding benchmarking is the whole moving up of the public sector salary scales (yet again)


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## Guest117 (9 Jul 2008)

Sunny said:


> Lets not start the whole Private V Public sector debate again. Its been done to death.


 

Jimbob1234 - Listen to Sunny - I agree with a lot of what you say abt public sector but don't want every thread to be a rehash of an old thread


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## jimbob1234 (9 Jul 2008)

i was wanted to emphasize an incorrect message that an earlier postermade,  who said that they "were a public sector worked who was in favour of a pay freeze", its just totally false.  thats it, enough said


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## csirl (9 Jul 2008)

> public sector workers get increments every year,


 
My neighbour, who's a civil servants says that he no longer gets increments - is at the top of his scale. Increments are only paid in the early years - when you reach the top of the scale you get nothing except for the Partnership increases given to all workers. Also says that the only civil servants who get paid overtime are clerical staff in low paid jobs. Middle and senior management are forbidden from being paid overtime even if they work extra hours - something about being officers of the State who are obliged to be available to work whatever hours are necessary to get the job done.

This seems to suggest that a reduction of overtime would have to hit customer service as it mainly applies to the clerical staff who process forms and deal with the public.


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## aircobra19 (9 Jul 2008)

jimbob1234 said:


> public sector workers get increments every year, this is nothing to do with the new bench marking. these increments are still going ahead so the term "pay freeze" is a joke. the 3% will probably be achieved by cutting of contract workers and recruitment freeze. i just want to get the point across that a public sector worker will earn more this yr than last and more nxt year than this yr regardless of this debate. thats the way their increments work. the increments range from 800 to 2500 per year
> 
> any outstanding benchmarking is the whole moving up of the public sector salary scales (yet again)


 


jimbob1234 said:


> i was wanted to emphasize an incorrect message that an earlier postermade, who said that they "were a public sector worked who was in favour of a pay freeze", its just totally false. thats it, enough said


 

I don't think so. Increments are not automatic across all areas of the Public sector. Some grades are capped so get no increases unless they move grade, which they can't if theres no new positions. Sometimes the increments have to be approved based on performance reviews etc. People can be stuck on the same salary for years, usually its the lower grades. In effect there can be a "pay freeze" depending where you are and what grade you are on.


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## csirl (9 Jul 2008)

> I think 100 million for a new National Theatre in the docks shou,d go for a hop.


 
I'd agree that this, along with some other non-essential projects in the arts, sport & community areas will feel the brunt of the cuts at budget time.


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## QED (9 Jul 2008)

There are as yet no details on Health and Education Cut-backs . . . Sorry 'Cost Savings'.

I think these will be announced on a Friday evening during summer when Dail is in recess and everyone (who can afford it) is on holidays.

I'm was a passive Fianna Fail supporter but I am angry at the lack of a strong Opposition to really challenge these PR announcements and get democracy working.


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## aircobra19 (9 Jul 2008)

QED said:


> ....I am angry at the lack of a strong Opposition to really challenge these PR announcements and get democracy working.


 
Too true.


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## becky (9 Jul 2008)

Statement by Mary Harney, T.D.
Minister for Health & Children
Budgetary consolidation in 2008
8 July 2008

The Minister for Health and Children, Mary Harney T.D. said today (Tuesday 8 July, 2008) : " The budgetary consolidation measures decided by the Government today will ensure that we can continue on a sound fiscal basis which will support economic growth and provide for improved public services into the future."
"Within the Health Group of Votes, the 2008 Budget provided for an additional €1.16 billion expenditure in 2008 bringing the total to €16.156 billion."
"A total of €144.35m is to be saved within the health sector this year."
"The intention is that this amount will be saved through a combination of the following:
(i) savings of €85m in 2008 arising from the new nursing home support
scheme, the Fair Deal, which has still to be implemented. The
balance of the Fair Deal provision of €110 will be applied as set
out below.
(ii) savings of €38m in 2008 arising from the slower than expected
roll-out of the package of new developments provided for in the
December 2007 budget;
(iii) savings of €21.35m to be identified in administrative costs across
the Department and all agencies other than the HSE to include
payroll, advertising, procurement, consultancy; and in other
schemes within the Department of Health & Children (Vote 39) and
the Office of the Minister for Children (Vote 41).
These savings will not affect the provision of health services to patients and clients or the HSE capital plan in 2008."

Services for Older People – nursing home support
The Minister intends to submit the Fair Deal legislation, which is currently being finalised, to Government for approval to publish as soon as possible. The cost of the scheme will be provided for in 2009.
Sanction has now been received from the Department of Finance for
(i) the spending of €13m from the Fair Deal provision of €110m on
200 extra contract beds and
(ii) the use of a further €12m of these moneys for enhanced
subvention arising from increases in the cost of nursing
home fees.
These measures will assist older people and their families in advance of the completion and implementation of legislation on the Fair Deal.
The HSE has confirmed that it is aiming to deliver the National Service Plan submitted by the Board last November within its approved pre-Budget allocation.
The HSE has already started to roll out some of the new service developments funded in Budget 2008 and included in the Addendum to the Service Plan submitted by the Board in January 2008. Following a review of its overall financial position it now plans to commence the remaining developments next month.
ENDS

Press Office
Department of Health & Children


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## jimbob1234 (9 Jul 2008)

aircobra19 said:


> I don't think so. Increments are not automatic across all areas of the Public sector. Some grades are capped so get no increases unless they move grade, which they can't if theres no new positions. Sometimes the increments have to be approved based on performance reviews etc. People can be stuck on the same salary for years, usually its the lower grades. In effect there can be a "pay freeze" depending where you are and what grade you are on.


 
When a person reaches the top of their scale they get long term service increments, this is for people who cant move grade and have reached the top of their scale


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## aircobra19 (9 Jul 2008)

You said every year. You might be waiting 5 or 6 yrs for long term service increments. Theres probably conditions attached too.


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## Welfarite (9 Jul 2008)

csirl said:


> I cant see how the public sector pay bill can be cut by 3% without a reducing staff numbers.


 

I think there is a subtle difference between talking about pay bills and "payroll costs" as Brian L put it. Doesn't  "payroll costs" include overtime? What was the Prison Services and Garda overtiome bills for last year? And is travel expense included in "payroll costs", does anyone know?


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## csirl (9 Jul 2008)

> And is travel expense included in "payroll costs", does anyone know?


 
Travel expenses are under a different sub-head to payroll in the Book of Estimates.


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## becky (9 Jul 2008)

aircobra19 said:


> You said every year. You might be waiting 5 or 6 yrs for long term service increments. Theres probably conditions attached too.


 
Most LSI are granted after 3 years and are granted in the same way as a normal incremenet.  I am on a scale with 2 LSI's and due the last increment in 2011.  After that I will receive the national pay awards unless I get a promotion to a different scale.


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## shnaek (9 Jul 2008)

All this talk of public sector pay rises is taking focus off more serious things the government should be doing to get our economy out of trouble. Trimming here and there is all well and good, but as someone mentioned before - look at health. It eats a huge portion of the annual budget. We have moved from regional health boards, to a centralised health board, and now there's talk of going back to regional again. How much does this messing alone cost? Let alone the fact that whether it's regional or central matters not a damn - we still have a god-awful health service. 

Decentralisation was a mess. The sooner it dies the better.

Public transport vested interests need to be tackled in order to have any hope of convincing people to use the unreliable, over-priced, poor quality, strike ridden(if you live in Cork) "service". And as an island nation we need excellent road and rail transport, and ports which are efficient and modern. These are the things that make a difference. Concentrating on saving is fine, but unless we address our real problems then this economy hasn't a hope of getting off it's knees any time soon.


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## Howitzer (9 Jul 2008)

And people wonder why it cost the hundreds of millions for PPARS, and in the end it still didn't work as a payroll system. 

I've read the last dozen or so messages in this thread and I can't decipher for the life of me the beast that appears to be public sector pay - how what you do equates to what you get paid. There just doesn't appear to be any correllation. Expenses here, grades there, long service, short service.

I say stick all public sector employees into a big room with a fan at the bottom, ala The Crystal Maze, throw the wages in, turn on the fan and whatever you can grab you keep. Then if we could introduce some sort of Logans Run type scenario to reduce the numbers then all the better.


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## jimbob1234 (9 Jul 2008)

i have a friend whos girlfriend is a teacher and she is on less money than my friends  sister who qualified at the same time. she has called and written to the payroll department countless times and cant get a reason or an answer to why this is. imagine that, the people that run the payroll cant say what the issue is . they cant even look after their own people, so how can they be expected to provide services for us mere mortals


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## Brianne (9 Jul 2008)

xxx


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## ubiquitous (9 Jul 2008)

If you wish to report any offensive post, you can do so by clicking on the red-outline triangle at the top right hand corner panel of the post panel.


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## Brianne (9 Jul 2008)

I say stick all public sector employees into a big room with a fan at the bottom, ala The Crystal Maze, throw the wages in, turn on the fan and whatever you can grab you keep. Then if we could introduce some sort of Logans Run type scenario to reduce the numbers then all the better.


_*Logan's Run*_ is a novel by William F. Nolan and George Clayton Johnson. Published in 1967, it depicts a dystopian future society in which population and the consumption of resources is managed and maintained in equilibrium by the simple expedient of demanding the death of everyone upon reaching a particular age, thus avoiding the issue of overpopulation. The story follows the actions of Logan, a Deep Sleep Operative or "Sandman" charged with enforcing the rule, as he "runs" from society's lethal demand.

Howitzer, your comment is neither funny nor useful,it is offensive. If you suggested this about another group in our society, you would probably be banned.


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## Brianne (9 Jul 2008)

xxx


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## Purple (9 Jul 2008)

Brianne said:


> I say stick all public sector employees into a big room with a fan at the bottom, ala The Crystal Maze, throw the wages in, turn on the fan and whatever you can grab you keep. Then if we could introduce some sort of Logans Run type scenario to reduce the numbers then all the better.
> 
> 
> _*Logan's Run*_ is a novel by William F. Nolan and George Clayton Johnson. Published in 1967, it depicts a dystopian future society in which population and the consumption of resources is managed and maintained in equilibrium by the simple expedient of demanding the death of everyone upon reaching a particular age, thus avoiding the issue of overpopulation. The story follows the actions of Logan, a Deep Sleep Operative or "Sandman" charged with enforcing the rule, as he "runs" from society's lethal demand.
> ...


 Right so, you're first on the list.


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## rmelly (9 Jul 2008)

maybe mix in a bit of 'The Running Man', 'Escape from New York', 'Hard Target' etc to make a bit more interesting - motion detector driven machine gun turrets, mine fields, cluster munitions, lasers, booby traps, quick sand, piranhas etc.

And RTE could broadcast it under their public service broacasting remit.


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## aircobra19 (9 Jul 2008)

Howitzer said:


> And people wonder why it cost the hundreds of millions for PPARS, and in the end it still didn't work as a payroll system. .....


 
What about the private sector companies and consultants involved in that too. IBM, SAP, Deloitte, Blackmore Group Assets.  


Howitzer said:


> I've read the last dozen or so messages in this thread and I can't decipher for the life of me the beast that appears to be public sector pay - how what you do equates to what you get paid. There just doesn't appear to be any correllation. Expenses here, grades there, long service, short service.....


 
Its hardly rocket science. Theres similar types of wage structures in the private sector too. Its just varies a lot more. It varies across the public sector, too between agencies etc. In my experience what people get paid is more to do with what they can negociate than the work they do. Thats just how the world works.


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## Purple (9 Jul 2008)

aircobra19 said:


> What about the private sector companies and consultants involved in that too. IBM, SAP, Deloitte, Blackmore Group Assets.


 All of whom have lost money and sacked people in order to recover...


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## aircobra19 (9 Jul 2008)

Purple said:


> All of whom have lost money and sacked people in order to recover...


 
Do you have links to that. Seems like poor business to get 50 million+ and not make some money on it.


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## Purple (9 Jul 2008)

aircobra19 said:


> Do you have links to that. Seems like poor business to get 50 million+ and not make some money on it.



Google "IBM cut jobs", "SAP cut jobs", "Deloitte cut jobs" etc


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## aircobra19 (9 Jul 2008)

I'm not finding any thing that links job cuts to that project. In fact I found one that SAP has 100 new jobs. http://www.rte.ie/business/2008/0617/jobs.html


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## Complainer (10 Jul 2008)

jimbob1234 said:


> i was wanted to emphasize an incorrect message that an earlier postermade,  who said that they "were a public sector worked who was in favour of a pay freeze", its just totally false.  thats it, enough said


Unless you are equipped with telepathic powers, you don't know what that poster is or isn't in favour of in relation to pay - your understanding of 'pay freeze' (i.e. including increments for those who qualify) may well be different from her understanding of 'pay freeze'.


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