# EIR Landline Talk over Fibre not secure?



## Graftgirl (16 Nov 2020)

*Last night my landline rang from a number I did not recognise(from up the country 043) I answered but it had already been picked up by my answering machine so when I tried to pick up during the call neither people on the other end could hear me.
I was surprised to realise after a minute of trying to answer the caller on the other end that I recognised my neighbour's voice (2 houses up the road from me) who I have since confirmed was answering a call from his elderly father up the country, his fathers number including the county code came up on my phone and not my neighbours number,  we are shocked at the level of instability and the total lack of security, could this indicate my landline number is being intercepted or hacked in some way, I need an explanation of this as I don’t feel I can speak now over my landline now as it does not seem like a secure means of communication.
After discussing this with my neighbour he confirmed that he was using "Messenger" and his father also was using "Messenger" both gentlemen were speaking to each other over their mobile phones, I do not have or have ever used "Messenger" and this came in through my Fibre broadband landline handset so I'm baffled.
Would anybody be able to shed some light on this for me, I also want people to be aware of the lack of security, it was fairly benign in this instance but imagine if you were discussing something personal/sensitive that you wouldn't like others to hear and then realising your calls could be heard clearly by others!
I have logged a fault/error with Eir, haven't called them yet as I need to brace myself for spending an hour on the phone trying to get through. *


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## fidelcastro (16 Nov 2020)

I think there is something about the POTs system and not hanging up allows you to hogg the telephone.  
Your line may also  be "spit" /shared with your neightbours.
Old stuff.  If concerned , stick to the digital format viz  GSM phone, the POTs system is crap and obsolete 20th century stuff.


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## SparkRite (16 Nov 2020)

fidelcastro said:


> I think there is something about the POTs system and not hanging up allows you to hogg the telephone.


Long long time ago, showing your age now.
Not relevant here anyway:-


Graftgirl said:


> this came in through my Fibre broadband landline handset so I'm baffled.



Another puzzling factor is:-


Graftgirl said:


> both gentlemen were speaking to each other over their mobile phones,



I'm assuming that the neighbour (not relevant what the other person was using) was using his WiFi when calling via 'messenger' and not GSM as there would be no potential 'crossover' otherwise with the OPs IP line.

@Graftgirl how long have you had your landline through IP, if only recently have you actually checked that your correct landline number has been properly assigned? Have you tried by simply calling your number from your mobile?


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## Graftgirl (16 Nov 2020)

Hi Thank you for your replies, yes it came in over my fibre broadband so VOIP, what's very strange is that my neighbour was on his mobile talking over messenger, we have never actually spoken over my landline, he doesn't have that number!  we both noted this this morning whilst speaking about it. We dont have the same provider, I am with EIR, he is with Vodafone. I got through to EIR they think its strange and can't explain it but are going to monitor it for 24hrs.
I am left feeling unfortunately that I do not trust the phone now, surely this is a data breach and breaks standards especially in the age of GDPR etc.

Now while I said both men were on their mobile phones, his fathers number did come in from a landline number, I would have to verify that further but my neighbour did say that  both men were using "Messenger"
EIR say that if my neighbour had the same internet provider that it would be some bit explainable i.e same SIP passwords used or something but as he is with Vodafone they dont see how this is possible either.
The landline number is with us 16years but we moved the landline to IP just over 2 years ago, first with sky and Eir for the past 8 months approx.
many thanks for your help. Sorry it was EIR we got the fibre with first about 3ish years ago, then moved to SKY and now back to Eir since approx. April this year.


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## SparkRite (16 Nov 2020)

SparkRite said:


> Have you tried by simply calling your number from your mobile?


Have you tried this today and if so is your neighbour affected at all by an incoming call to your landline?

While you may be with different 'providers' both Vodafone and Eir use the same network.



Graftgirl said:


> Now while I said both men were on their mobile phones, his fathers number did come in from a landline number, I would have to verify that further but my neighbour did say that both men were using "Messenger"


I explained how this could be a potential cause above, :-


SparkRite said:


> using his WiFi when calling via 'messenger' and not GSM as there would be no potential 'crossover' otherwise with the OPs IP line.





Graftgirl said:


> surely this is a data breach and breaks standards especially in the age of GDPR etc.



GDPR does not apply in this instance.


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## Graftgirl (16 Nov 2020)

SparkRite said:


> Have you tried this today and if so is your neighbour affected at all by an incoming call to your landline?
> 
> *Yes I can call my landline from my mobile fine, I wouldn't know if my neighbour or anyone else can hear my call if it was happening, my neighbour had no evidence that I could hear his call between him and his father so if I don't hear from someone to tell me otherwise I won't know.*
> 
> ...


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## jpd (16 Nov 2020)

If your neighbour was using wifi in his house, then his call was routed over his broadband connection not over the wireless connection (3G, 4G)


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## Graftgirl (16 Nov 2020)

jpd said:


> If your neighbour was using wifi in his house, then his call was routed over his broadband connection not over the wireless connection (3G, 4G)


I will need to check that with him for sure, he said he was on his mobile so I assumed it was WIFI, I don't have any experience of "Messenger"
I would think its very strange what has happened wether it was wifi or his mobile data, either way its not explainable, its made me think that my connection is not secure or possibly even hacked!
And his dad's number(the number that Called me) was a landline number but my neighbour told me they were both using messenger, again I am not fully understanding how this "Messenger" works, I'm imagining its like WhatsApp but his dad was using it via a landline number so I don't know how that works.


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## SparkRite (16 Nov 2020)

jpd said:


> If your neighbour was using wifi in his house, then his call was routed over his broadband connection not over the wireless connection (3G, 4G)


Indeed it was, as I said above.

But still doesn't explain the callers ID appearing on the OPs phone and the 'crossed line'. Even if the neighbour was inadvertently logged in on the OPs WiFi the call should not present on the land line.



Graftgirl said:


> he said he was on his mobile so I assumed it was WIFI,


Strange, I, and I suspect most people, would assume if someone said they were using a mobile phone, then that usage would be routed via the mobile network.
However calls via 'messenger' (unlike 'whatsapp' ) are not using end to end encryption or AFAIK any encryption whatsoever.



Graftgirl said:


> *People should be very wary discussing anything over the phone.*


Not being smart, but that has been known that for years.


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## Graftgirl (16 Nov 2020)

SparkRite said:


> Yes, as I said above.
> 
> But still doesn't explain the callers ID appearing on the OPs phone and the 'crossed line'. Even if the neighbour was inadvertently logged in on the OPs WiFi the call should not present on the land line.


Yes its really bizarre, I really want to get to the bottom of what's going on, there is a reason or a Log of some sort somewhere of what's happened, because its so unusual I want to find out what's happening. This is not a neighbour I am regularly speaking to over the phone either, although I did send a WhatsApp message to a group that we are both in yesterday, doesn't explain anything either but its all I can think of.
And I want to add that we have NEVER spoken over my landline.


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## SparkRite (16 Nov 2020)

Graftgirl said:


> I am not fully understanding how this "Messenger" works, I'm imagining its like WhatsApp but his dad was using it via a landline number so I don't know how that works.



That makes two of us.


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## Graftgirl (16 Nov 2020)

Ok so my neighbour has just confirmed he was using "Messenger" on his mobile phone over the WIFI in his house, internet provided by Vodafone.


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## jpd (16 Nov 2020)

That means his call was broken up in to little packets of 0's and 1's and sent from his phone to the broadband router using WiFi and then over the broadband connection to his father and similarly his father's reply was sent as packets back to the broadband router and then over Wifi to his phone.

It would seem as if his packets of 0's and 1's somehow got mixed in with your broadband router.

Is he by any chance connecting to your WiFi and not his? - in this case the call is being processed by your router and as it is an IP phone router could be heard?

The other possibility is that the broadband connections are getting mixed together - although that would seem highly unlikely


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## jpd (16 Nov 2020)

You should be able to log in to your router and see what devices are connected to it

Presumably, you have secured the Wifi with a password?


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## jpd (16 Nov 2020)

SparkRite said:


> Not being smart, but that has been known that for years.


Ask Graham Dwyer for his opinion


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## joer (16 Nov 2020)

Report this pronto and take time of the problem. And get your neighbour to do the same .....


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## SparkRite (16 Nov 2020)

jpd said:


> Is he by any chance connecting to your WiFi and not his? - in this case the call is being processed by your router and as it is an IP phone router could be heard?



I mused on this earlier and even if he was using the OPs Wifi, any end to end call over WiFi/DSL using whatever app, should not present as a VOIP call on the  OPs 'landline'.



SparkRite said:


> But still doesn't explain the callers ID appearing on the OPs phone and the 'crossed line'. Even if the neighbour was inadvertently logged in on the OPs WiFi the call should not present on the land line.


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## Graftgirl (16 Nov 2020)

jpd said:


> You should be able to log in to your router and see what devices are connected to it
> 
> Presumably, you have secured the Wifi with a password?


Yes password protected, we use a Netgear Orbi.


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## Graftgirl (16 Nov 2020)

jpd said:


> That means his call was broken up in to little packets of 0's and 1's and sent from his phone to the broadband router using WiFi and then over the broadband connection to his father and similarly his father's reply was sent as packets back to the broadband router and then over Wifi to his phone.
> 
> It would seem as if his packets of 0's and 1's somehow got mixed in with your broadband router.
> 
> ...



Thank you for your reply, I can't see how it would be possible as we have a password protected network, we use a Netgear Orbi.


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## Páid (16 Nov 2020)

I don't think it's a problem with your or your neighbours WiFi. I think it's entirely possible though if Messenger and your VoIP provider use the same insecure protocol (SIP or another). 

I'm not an expert in this area but you should be reporting this to EIR or Comreg.


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## Páid (16 Nov 2020)

This explains the problem https://www.pcmag.com/news/voips-big-security-problem-its-sip?amp=true


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## SparkRite (16 Nov 2020)

Páid said:


> This explains the problem https://www.pcmag.com/news/voips-big-security-problem-its-sip?amp=true



That certainly explains a problem with SIP if hacking is taking place, which I very much doubt is the situation here.

However none of the big VOIPs use SIP any more, not even 'messenger' which despite my previous post to the contrary, FB now claim they are in fact using full end to end encryption. If they can be believed is for another day, as they say.


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## Páid (17 Nov 2020)

SparkRite said:


> That certainly explains a problem with SIP if hacking is taking place, which I very much doubt is the situation here.


For it to happen at all means that some unsecure prototol was being used in common i.e. by both Messenger and EIR's voip.

Please do not underestimate EIR's incompetence when it comes to security.


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## Leo (17 Nov 2020)

jpd said:


> You should be able to log in to your router and see what devices are connected to it



Yep, an alternative is to use an app like Fing on your mobile device.


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## Graftgirl (17 Nov 2020)

Páid said:


> I don't think it's a problem with your or your neighbours WiFi. I think it's entirely possible though if Messenger and your VoIP provider use the same insecure protocol (SIP or another).
> 
> I'm not an expert in this area but you should be reporting this to EIR or Comreg.


Hi Páid, thanks for your input, yes when I spoke with the Eir Technical dept they did suggest that changing a SIP password was something they would do anyway just in case but they said as we were not on the same network that it was very unlikely to be the reason it happened. 
I am considering escalating this matter to make an official complaint as it is some breach of privacy to think you are having a phone call between 2 people but there are possibly others involved and what happened on my line is proof that it happens.


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