# Question re: husband making will



## max (22 Sep 2009)

Does a will made by one party to a marriage have to be witnessed by the other (provided they are both alive and not separated/divorced)? ie Is it possible for the husband to make out a will and not let the wife know contents of same? I'm thinking it may be possible, if wife is not stipulated as executor/witness, from reading the basics about wills online...


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## mathepac (22 Sep 2009)

max said:


> Does a will made by one party to a marriage have to be witnessed by the other  ...


No, and a beneficiary of a will cannot be a witness.


max said:


> ... Is it possible for the husband to make out a will and not let the wife know contents of same? ...


Yes.


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## mf1 (22 Sep 2009)

A will is a private document. It does not come into force or effect until death. A spouse can choose to show their own will to their spouse but they don't have to. If a solicitor is making wills for spouses, the two parties should be seen separately, their instructions taken separately and their wills prepared and executed separately. If, after they have made their wills, they choose to show each other their wills, that is their prerogataive. 

There is no obligation at all, and whatsoever, for one spouse to be involved in their spouse making a will. 

Spouses do have legal obligations to their spouses when making a will and their solicitor should point out these legal obligations. If a testator chooses to ignore the solicitor's advice, the solicitor can choose not to act any further or follow the instructions and keep a careful note on file of the client's firm, clear, instructions. 

mf


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## Charley (23 Sep 2009)

Didn't realise that...  I thought that a spouse was automatically entitled to 2/3rd of the estate with a 1/3rd going to any children from the marriage.    

Does that only apply then if there's no contradictory Will made by the deceased spouse?


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## mf1 (23 Sep 2009)

If there is no will, the 2/3 - 1/3 rule applies.

If there is a will, then the legal right share of a spouse is 1/2 if no children and 1/3 if there are children. 

mf


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## max (25 Sep 2009)

Ya just someone whom I regard as reliable told me a couple years ago that wife had to witness will, went on about some famous court case 15 years ago where a wife contested a will because she was not present. 

I'm thinking of willing a medium sized farm I have to a nephew, rather than son, for various reasons, mainly this son doesn't work on the farm or have much interest (he is mostly away working anyway) and the nephew is much more involved (the nephew will probably inherit a larger farm himself also). How common would this be in Ireland and would the son have sufficient grounds to be successful challenge under succession act? (have already taken legal advice but would just like to see what folks on this forum have to say ;-))

Talking to the son about this will probably leave me without peace til the day I'm laid to rest, so wasn't going to mention anything to him.


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## MOB (25 Sep 2009)

Max,
You are clearly contemplating making a will which you do not want either your wife or your son to know about, and you are canvassing opinions  - with very limited facts given - as to whether there is likely to be trouble.   You don't need a lawyer to answer this.  In fact, you don't really need any body to answer this.   You already know the answer.  Without all the facts, it is impossible to give a useful opinion.   It does seem a safe bet  that your plans may well cause a rift between branches of the family which will persist into the next generation.   Only you know whether this is justified taking into account all the facts of your case.


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## Bronte (25 Sep 2009)

Any parent who is going to disinherit a child in favour of a nephew would want to have very serious reasons for doing so.  The only reason I could think of is if the son was a scoundrel and waster.  This is a personal opinion.


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## max (25 Sep 2009)

How about trouble-maker (within family - nothing with law/gardai), disrespectful to me and my wife, and worst of all ungrateful for what we have done for him in raising and educating him?


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## mathepac (25 Sep 2009)

Parents "raising and educating" children are simply discharging their responsibilities, IMHO; expectations of gratitude may often lead to disappointment.


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## so-crates (25 Sep 2009)

But equally expectation of inheritance may lead to disappointment. 
However it wouldn't be unnatural for a son to expect to benefit over a nephew, I think, max, you need to at least discuss this with your wife and certainly take professional legal advice.


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## eggerb (25 Sep 2009)

max said:


> ... have already taken legal advice but would just like to see what folks on this forum have to say ;-))


 
What did the legal advice say?


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## senni (25 Sep 2009)

Max Max Max

How old is your son....If he is under 30 years of age ? Do you remember how old you were when you really felt like an adult or how old you were when you really understood what our parents did for us..

Maybe the day he marries and has his own children he may mature and understand all you did...

Please think this through as this " will " could break him...is this what you want ? 

Do you really want to leave all that torture behind you for generations ? Give him a chance ( unless there is more than you are saying )


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## buyingabroad (25 Sep 2009)

Dad, is that you?


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## max (26 Sep 2009)

senni, he is about the age your talking about, and anyway I'm not gonna leave him completely bereft as I do plan on giving him some other stuff besides the land mentioned. And also it wouldn't break him if I were even to leave him nothing, as he is well-qualified to provide for himself. It's just that I don't think he would give a s#@#e about the land if it were his, the nephew would be better use of it.

Who normally acts as witness in a will? Would the solicitor do as one of the requisite witnesses? This is something which exercises me, because I don't really want work to get out until I'm 'done n dusted', if ya know what I mean?!


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## max (26 Sep 2009)

senni, he is about the age your talking about, and anyway I'm not gonna leave him completely bereft as I do plan on giving him some other stuff besides the land mentioned. And also it wouldn't break him if I were even to leave him nothing, as he is well-qualified to provide for himself. It's just that I don't think he would give a s#@#e about the land if it were his, the nephew would be better use of it.

Who normally acts as witness in a will? Would the solicitor do as one of the requisite witnesses? This is something which exercises me, because I don't really want work to get out until I'm 'done n dusted', if ya know what I mean?!


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## Darthvadar (26 Sep 2009)

max said:


> Who normally acts as witness in a will? Would the solicitor do as one of the requisite witnesses? This is something which exercises me, because I don't really want work to get out until I'm 'done n dusted', if ya know what I mean?!


 
When my mother and I made our wills, our solicitor and his secretary witnessed them...


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## Bronte (28 Sep 2009)

max said:


> How about trouble-maker (within family - nothing with law/gardai), disrespectful to me and my wife, and worst of all ungrateful for what we have done for him in raising and educating him?


 
He's still your son.  He will always be your son.  You are trying to punish him for his behaviour.  I'm sure if you do what you want in the will, as is your right, than you will suceed but at what cost?

I don't know of any family where a child doesn't at some stage break their parents hearts, being a parent can be a thankless task, but we are the parents and we have to rise above it.  

You just go to a solicitor without anyone else and the solicitor will do the will for you and will also have it witnessed.


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## max (28 Sep 2009)

buyingabroad said:


> Dad, is that you?





Bronte said:


> He's still your son.  He will always be your son.  You are trying to punish him for his behaviour.  I'm sure if you do what you want in the will, as is your right, than you will suceed but at what cost?



It isn't really all about punishment b, its just that he hasn't shown any intention of doing anything for this in return, and as I said before above he won't make use of a farm anyway, he doesn't know how to farm and doesn't have any intention of learning. It'll probably be sold off by him and proceeds used to finance the 'shades n sunscreen' lifestyle


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## mathepac (28 Sep 2009)

max said:


> It isn't really all about punishment ...


It is precisely about punishing him for his failure to adopt the lifestyle and perhaps value-system you espouse and want for him.


max said:


> ... its just that he hasn't shown any intention of doing anything for this in return ...


and also punishing the perceived lack of gratitude and reciprocation displayed by him for all the benefits showered on him.


max said:


> ...  It'll probably be sold off by him and proceeds used to finance the 'shades n sunscreen' lifestyle


You seem to be having difficulty accepting all your hard work and all that you value materially being gone out of the family after you die and used to subsidise a life-style you evidently despise. Your new will sounds like a powerful need to control other peoples' lives after you die as you apparently failed to control and shape them while alive, otherwise known as punishment or revenge.

I find it very sad as well as damaging and divisive.


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## WaterSprite (28 Sep 2009)

Mathpac - I have to disagree & take issue with your post.  For one, OP was asking a legitimate question about the requirements of witnessing will.   Commenting on his desire to "control" other people's lives is irrelevant to his query and is extraordinarily judgmental. 

Secondly, grown up children have no right to their parents' assets, either morally (IMO) or legally.  OP is entitled to do what he likes with his property (subject to spousal rights of course).  It isn't about punishment, it's just not giving something to someone who isn't entitled to it.  That you believe a child has some entitlement is your opinion and your business. The only thing that may be unfair is if OP's son is counting on the inheritance and it blindsides him when the time comes.  

I don't eye my parents' money waiting for them to shuffle off - they could leave it to a dogs' home and it would be completely up to them.

OP, you also have to be aware that your wife can (and by the sounds of it, will) leave her share of your estate to your son if you pre-decease her.  To my mind, that also deals with the "blindsiding" question as your son will not be left with nothing.


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## Bronte (29 Sep 2009)

max said:


> It isn't really all about punishment b, its just that he hasn't shown any intention of doing anything for this in return, and as I said before above he won't make use of a farm anyway, he doesn't know how to farm and doesn't have any intention of learning. It'll probably be sold off by him and proceeds used to finance the 'shades n sunscreen' lifestyle


 
But you do seem to want to punish him, you want him to be like you and your wife, careful and hardworking. Has he not done anything in his life that you could praise? You mention he has an education and a job, do you not think that that's a great achievement?

In relation to the farm, I understand you are a farmer, you love being a farmer, you have done this all your life, I know the attachment to the land is very strong but it is not for everyone, you are judging your son on this. He has to make his own choices even if they are not your choices, you are disappointed that he doesn't love the land the way you do and you are comparing him to your favourite nephew in this respect which is unfair. I don't know all the details and I hope I'm not being too personal, but by educating him for a career how did you hope he could be a farmer? You and your wife have done your best for your boy, don't disappoint him and make him bitter for the rest of his life by disinheriting him. Is there someone you could talk to about this, about the anger you have towards your son, I think you should discuss it with someone trusted and neutral.


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## Kate10 (29 Sep 2009)

I have to say like Water Sprite I'm really surprised that so many people seem to feel that the son has some right to his father's property.  In my family (a very close loving family) we were always told that we would get our education and that's it!  My parents have some property, but as far as I'm concerned they are entitled to do whatever they want with it.  If they chose to give it to another sibling over me, I'm sure it would be for their own reasons.  My relationship with them and love for them is not based on what they can/will give me.  They've given me more than enough in educating me/looking after me/being great parents etc.

To the OP - yes you can make your will with your solicitor without telling anyone else.  If you want to leave your son out of your will you will have to discuss this with your solicitor.  Your will will be open to challenge in the courts after you apss away- your son could apply to the court to have your will set aside on the grounds that you have not properly provided for him.  Given your son's age and that he presumably went to third level education, and assuming you have otherwise previously supported him financially, he may have no grounds for this sort of application, but this hasn't stopped people trying it before!  Talk to your solicitor about the specific circumstances and decide where to go from there.

Kate.


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## senni (30 Sep 2009)

Whos to say the nephew will not sell the farm either.... I bet you he will.  Leave it to your son but put conditions on it.


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## max (30 Sep 2009)

What kind of conditions - would they include restricting subsequent disposal of land?...didn't know that's possible


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## truthseeker (1 Oct 2009)

I think its disgraceful that people are making moral judgements about the OP and his decision who he wishes to will his assets to.

What difference does it make why he wants to leave it to a nephew over a son? Its his business and his asset.

Why should anyone be entitled to the assets of their parents? If parents choose surely they are entitled to sell their assets before death and go and live the life of reilly for their remaining years and leave nothing behind!!!

I find it extraordinary that people believe the son is entitled to anything - he was fed and watered and by the sounds of things has a good education - why should his father be responsible for funding his lifestyle on into adulthood?

As for rifts in the family, I would bet if the son inherited and then sold the farm there'd be a rift anyway - you cant be expected to write your will in such a way as to avoid other peoples moods after death - let them rift if thats what they want to do.
And as for the son being bitter for the rest of his life if he is disinherited - well thats his problem, he shouldnt believe he has an automatic entitlement to his parents assets after death.
I dont think the OP sounds angry with his son, I think he just doesnt want to waste a good asset on him.

OP - I suggest you get a good solicitor (and maybe consult another one if you feel your current one is not giving you enough detail), and make your will as watertight as you can.

Also - use a neutral executor - myself and my sibling are suffering with an executor who blames us for problems in my fathers life and in an effort to punish us has dragged his heels for nearly 3 years now executing my fathers will. If I have learned anything from this its that you should never use an executor who may have personal feelings towards the beneficiaries as they can use their power to make life hard for the beneficiaries and cause a lot of stress. When you will someone something I assume you dont want them to face years of stress and information like getting blood out of a stone!!!


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## max (1 Oct 2009)

mathepac said:


> It is precisely about punishing him for his failure to adopt the lifestyle and perhaps value-system you espouse and want for him.
> and also punishing the perceived lack of gratitude and reciprocation displayed by him for all the benefits showered on him.
> You seem to be having difficulty accepting all your hard work and all that you value materially being gone out of the family after you die and used to subsidise a life-style you evidently despise. Your new will sounds like a powerful need to control other peoples' lives after you die as you apparently failed to control and shape them while alive, otherwise known as punishment or revenge.
> 
> I find it very sad as well as damaging and divisive.



As stated previously, I have already told him my will is 'open to revision' but this hasn't really triggered any concern in him. The relationship anyway is already bad enough between us two, I don't think I'll be backing down, after all I did rear the lad and he doesn't seem to appreciate this whatsoever.

The verbose tone of your final paragraph might suggest that perhaps you have been 'disinherited' yourself, mathepac?


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## mathepac (1 Oct 2009)

max said:


> ... The verbose tone of your final paragraph might suggest that perhaps you have been 'disinherited' yourself, mathepac?


Sorry to disappoint your amateur psychological profiling aspirations, but if you read through previous threads on wills / inheritance / probate costs / etc, you will see you are wide of the target.


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## max (1 Oct 2009)

truthseeker said:


> Also - use a neutral executor - myself and my sibling are suffering with an executor who blames us for problems in my fathers life and in an effort to punish us has dragged his heels for nearly 3 years now executing my fathers will. If I have learned anything from this its that you should never use an executor who may have personal feelings towards the beneficiaries as they can use their power to make life hard for the beneficiaries and cause a lot of stress. When you will someone something I assume you dont want them to face years of stress and information like getting blood out of a stone!!!



I can enpathise with your issues, truthseeker. 3 years seems an enormous length of time however, given an executor can only 'drag her/his heels' for 1 year max and can be prosecuted if nothing initiated after this time. 

In saying that many genuine issues can arise such as unpaid tax liabilities, probate office, mortgaged titles, etc. The executor may also liquidate/dispose assets, at their behest, and depending on circumstances terms of will, from memory, prior to transfer to beneficiaries. An executor can have decisions to make in how the will in executed and thus, in fulfilling their legal obligations.

Here's a question for the legal eagles on here - who (as in relation to disponer) is the most popular/common executor of a will?


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## Bronte (2 Oct 2009)

max said:


> As stated previously, I have already told him my will is 'open to revision' but this hasn't really triggered any concern in him. ?


 
Why would anyone do this?


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## truthseeker (2 Oct 2009)

Bronte said:


> Why would anyone do this?


 
A variety of reasons, the one that springs to mind is that perhaps the son had seen an earlier version and passed comment to the tune of himself being the inheritor and his father was just setting him straight.


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## max (2 Oct 2009)

Bronte said:


> Why would anyone do this?



And to see if he cares I guess!


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## Bronte (2 Oct 2009)

max said:


> And to see if he cares I guess!


 
Are you playing with your son?  

Do you not think he loves you?


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## truthseeker (2 Oct 2009)

Bronte said:


> Are you playing with your son?
> 
> Do you not think he loves you?


 
My parents reminded us on more than one occasion that the will could be changed if they so wished - usually in response to some smart teenager comment to the tune of 'well ill get it all when youre gone anyway' - I dont see anything wrong with it tbh - children shouldnt feel they have an automatic entitlement to their parents estate.


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## max (2 Oct 2009)

If a parent has to do something like that with his/her children it means only one thing IMO - the r'ship is not in good shape! 

A good parent-child r'ship shouldn't come down to this, but unfortunately it has and does.

These actions could also be construed as parent trying to 'buy' themselves a positive r'ship with child in their final years, as manipulative, and that's what they do and will see it. The way I feel is I have done a huge amt for mine and haven't received any gratitude or even acknowledgement whatsoever, only more criticism/insults/disrespect. What alternatives are there?


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## Bronte (2 Oct 2009)

What kind of gratitude do you want?  I don't mean that question in a facetious way.  Can you articulate what you feel is lacking in your relationship with you son?  Do you think there is a way to resolve this?  Maybe you the parents are the punchbag to whatever your son feels is wrong with the world.


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## max (2 Oct 2009)

I'd say we're both bringing issues to the table, which have led to the present situation. It has never been positive between us since his late teens, nothing in particular occurred that I could think of, just gradual distance and separation, and the beginning of 'critical evaluation', if you want to call it that, by him of me. That distance has increased and now it's more hate than any other emotion I feel from him, no matter what I do there's something wrong. My own father died when I was young so that's probably impacting considerably. And the son has his own probs as well, been through a fair amount. At present he doesn't like what he sees when he looks and talks to me and vica versa. Just don't like. There's other stuff as well, just too detailed to post on a public forum such as this tbh.


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## MOB (2 Oct 2009)

Max,

Don't even think of the will as something that you can discuss with your son.  It is not a useful tool for stimulating dialogue with him.   It is not an appropriate vehicle for altering or mending your relationship with him.   Your will only matters when you are dead.  Try to imagine what things will be like when you are gone.  Decide how much you care about what happens after your death (I am not being facetious;  some people don't really care all that much).   Then decide what sort of will you want.  Then make the will and forget about it.

Find some other way to improve the father\son relationship (if that is what you want).


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## truthseeker (2 Oct 2009)

max said:


> I'd say we're both bringing issues to the table, which have led to the present situation. It has never been positive between us since his late teens, nothing in particular occurred that I could think of, just gradual distance and separation, and the beginning of 'critical evaluation', if you want to call it that, by him of me. That distance has increased and now it's more hate than any other emotion I feel from him, no matter what I do there's something wrong. My own father died when I was young so that's probably impacting considerably. And the son has his own probs as well, been through a fair amount. At present he doesn't like what he sees when he looks and talks to me and vica versa. Just don't like. There's other stuff as well, just too detailed to post on a public forum such as this tbh.


 
Max - my own relationship with my parents, particularly my father, was fractured. I was extranged from both of them before they died (as was my sibling). The will had remained unchanged, but quite honestly I couldnt have cared less if it had been changed. My sibling shouts loudly now about THE INHERITANCE and how there is ENTITLEMENT etc... I do not feel the same way. Whenever the estate is finally sorted out I am happy to receive whatever I receive, but had the will been changed before their deaths I wouldnt feel bitter or badly about it either. I do feel badly about the fracture of the relationship - but thats not something an inheritance changes. My feelings about the situation in life remain the same no matter what the will does or doesnt say.

Sometimes relationships break down and there is not much that can be done about it. In my own case there was a very specific issue that caused the break down.

I dont believe in the rubbish bandied about about blood ties being the strongest etc.. Sometimes your own blood are the people who treat you the worst and if thats how it goes you have to move on in your own life.


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## sam h (2 Oct 2009)

truthseeker said:


> Why should anyone be entitled to the assets of their parents? If parents choose surely they are entitled to sell their assets before death and go and live the life of reilly for their remaining years and leave nothing behind!!!


 
TBH, the best piece of advice in this whole thread!!  Enjoy it while you can!!

I am always amazed how kids assume they will be left their parents home & bank account.  It is not an entitlement & the rise in property prices over the last decade ment people were inhertiting substanial amounts.  I knew of a few people who were sole beneficiaries & hey presto, they have a semi in the suburbs worth close to €1m.  

I have also know of someone who borrowed money against an expected inheritance.  The best/saddest was the was a guy rang a solicitors office to check if he had been left anything - his mother had died just hours before!

OP, do whatever you feel is for the best, you are the only one who knows all the facts, though I do think you should discuss it with your wife as she may end up in the middle of an almighty mess if you go before she does.  She also may have a legal right over the land in some way.


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