# LIDL price variance IRL v France



## getoffthepot (14 Jul 2005)

LIDL are selling a tower fan in Coolock for 24.99, same fan in France was 16.99 when I was there last week.
6 x 500ml tonic water in France was 1.29 - 2.99 in Coolock.
Freeway 2 litre Coke 42c. 79 c here.(330ml cans of freeway coke were 17c not available here) 
Pistachio nuts 1.29 in France 2.99 here

We are being screwed.


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## Vanilla (14 Jul 2005)

Same with Aldi- the prices in France are far lower than here. I was over there a few months ago, and dropped in to Aldi to get some confectionary- I cant remember exactly the difference, just that it was far cheaper. I suppose transport costs come into it- it must be cheaper to transport to mainland europe than to here?


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## ubiquitous (14 Jul 2005)

Some possible reasons...
Transport costs
Wages
possibly VAT - 21% v ??
Rates & govt levies
Insurance
Regulatory costs


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## CGorman (14 Jul 2005)

Just to let you know, France has just gotten rid of the law against below cost selling, so theres no point compareing grocery prices between them and us.


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## CGorman (14 Jul 2005)

ubiquitous said:
			
		

> possibly VAT - 21% v ??



Its 19.6% in france - heres the VAT rates for everywhere - [broken link removed]


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## Humpback (14 Jul 2005)

ubiquitous said:
			
		

> Some possible reasons...
> Transport costs
> Wages
> possibly VAT - 21% v ??
> ...


 
Another reason, and Dell have stated this publically, is that they charge more in Ireland than other European countries because they, companies, know that the Irish consumer is going to pay the higher prices.

Why charge less, when they know that they'll get more from Irish consumers who'd rather have than have not, despite the price.


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## getoffthepot (14 Jul 2005)

ronan_d_john said:
			
		

> Another reason, and Dell have stated this publically, is that they charge more in Ireland than other European countries because they, companies, know that the Irish consumer is going to pay the higher prices.
> 
> Why charge less, when they know that they'll get more from Irish consumers who'd rather have than have not, despite the price.


 I also believe this is the answer and it applies to most catagories of goods sold in IRL.


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## stobear (14 Jul 2005)

Isn't it relative anyway, if Aldi and Lidl are supplying goods cheaper than Supervalu, Tesco etc, then we feel like we are getting a deal? If people will pay the prices, then they will be charged those prices


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## ubiquitous (14 Jul 2005)

> Another reason, and Dell have stated this publically, is that they charge more in Ireland than other European countries because they, companies, know that the Irish consumer is going to pay the higher prices.



Where did they say this?

Afaik, computers are no dearer here than in the North for example.


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## Carpenter (14 Jul 2005)

Stobear is right, but I say thank goodness we have Lidl and Aldi here, otherwise our own "domestic" operators would have upped the ante considerably in relation to price inflation.  Until Aldi and Lidl gain a more significant market share high prices in general are here to stay.


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## secondtime (14 Jul 2005)

It's the same with Lidl and Aldi in Spain, the difference can even be 100%.  Eg a very yummy selection of chocolate cakes that sell in Lidl here for €1.39 each and are only 0.69 in Lidl in Torrevieja in Spain


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## Grumpy (14 Jul 2005)

10 - 15% is understandable, any more is a rip-off .
Its a bitter disappointment.
I went out of my way to back Lidl/Aldi against the cartel that operated before they came.
Don`t feel as much loyalty now.


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## Samantha (15 Jul 2005)

If you think they are a huge difference between Lidl/Aldi France and Lidl/Aldi Ireland, the difference is even bigger with Lidl/Aldi Germany.


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## TigerNow (15 Jul 2005)

to be honest food prices in Spain are very cheap compared to here anyway, no matter whether you are in Lidl or another chain. 

In relation to Germany, it may be due to the fact that both Lidl and Aldi have a huge ammount of shops there, so they are in more competition to each other than here, and they are also in big competition with other discount chains that exist in germany, which do not exist here ( I cannot remember the names of these chains but there are several which are even cheaper than Aldi and Lidl and are very widespread there). Also Germans are a lot more price-conscious that us Irish, which is why we will happily pay a lot more for the same thing and not question it. On the flip side to this, in regard to Spain, wages generally in Spain are a lot less than here, so it is bound to be the case that groceries etc are cheaper there than here ( I have found that clothes however are no longer that cheap there, but that is a different story ) 
Perhaps it is also a bit of a snobbish thing here . I know several people who will never admit to shopping in Lidl, but who I know shop there regularly. Silly attidute but it does exist. 

I have to agree with Carpenter and Stobear. Without the entry of these to the Irish market, we would be paying a lot more than elsewhere for groceries, as Tescos, Dunnes, etc only brought down their prices due to competition from these German chains. So, okay we are paying more than in Spain , but we would be paying a lot more again if they were not here and we were still relying on the UK and Irish chains !!


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## bacchus (20 Jul 2005)

I suggest you get a Ryanair flight to France or Spain, do you shopping, and flight back  
Shopping becomes fun, and you can even make a week-end out of it


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## CGorman (20 Jul 2005)

bacchus said:
			
		

> I suggest you get a Ryanair flight to France or Spain, do you shopping, and flight back
> Shopping becomes fun, and you can even make a week-end out of it



The perfect plan.. except for the bloody taxes and charges at Dublin Airport that seem to make a 99c flight cost €20 each way!


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## Mumha (20 Jul 2005)

Lidl here charge €6.99 for a six pack of Bergadlier German beer and is only 2.59 at Lidl in Torrevieja, Spain


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## podgerodge (20 Jul 2005)

Mumha said:
			
		

> Lidl here charge €6.99 for a six pack of Bergadlier German beer and is only 2.59 at Lidl in Torrevieja, Spain



Yep, saw the 6 pack of Bergadlier beer in Lidl Ventimiglia, Italian Riviera for 1.99!!


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## RainyDay (20 Jul 2005)

getoffthepot said:
			
		

> I also believe this is the answer and it applies to most catagories of goods sold in IRL.


Does it apply to your employer or business?


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## daltonr (22 Jul 2005)

>> Does it apply to your employer or business?

Not mine.  But I don't see the relevance of your point either way.

According to Eddie Hobbs a recent comparisonson of a Basket of Groceries in Ireland and in Europe even allowing for ALL of the usual excuses VAT, Rates, Insurance, Transport, Labout, etc, etc, etc,  and on the other side the Lower Corporation tax.
The extent of the "Premium" being charged in Ireland was still over 20%.

Check out the first episode of Rip Off Republic for more details.

The Overcharging issue is often dismissed on these boards as "Shop Around", or "they charge those prices because we pay them" ergo no Rip-Off.  Well it's not that simple.   Virtually all of the reasons why we have a high cost of living here compared to other countries is the way our country is being run.

Bottom line folks,   I've been saying it here for it seems like years now.   Your taxes are high,  your cost of living is high, your public services are poor, your general customer service is poor.    You are rapidly heading for European style Taxation and American style public services.

What other country in the world would look at neighbours like ours, some of the most vibrant and exciting places on earth, and take the worst from all of them?

We've been sold a pup.

-Rd


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## ubiquitous (22 Jul 2005)

> According to Eddie Hobbs a recent comparisonson of a Basket of Groceries in Ireland and in Europe even allowing for ALL of the usual excuses VAT, Rates, Insurance, Transport, Labout, etc, etc, etc, and on the other side the Lower Corporation tax.
> The extent of the "Premium" being charged in Ireland was still over 20%.



Did Eddie include the UK in this analysis? After all the UK is the part of Europe from which we import the majority of consumer goods. The folks at www.rip-off.co.uk argue, with some justification, that its not all sweetness and light over there either. As someone who visits the North at least once a month and England or Scotland at least once or twice year, I refuse to accept that goods there are on average 20% cheaper. In fact on average, I would guess that overall prices are the same, maybe a couple of percentage points dearer here but no more.

On that basis, Eddie's analysis is flawed from the outset, unless of course if his definition of "Europe" starts at Calais. Then we are left with the other economic phenomena that are a feature of the continental economies but not (at least currently) of ours or the UK-  high direct taxation of individuals and unemployment. We had our fill of this phenomena in the 1980s and early 1990s. Is Eddie really suggesting that we return there?


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## BlueSpud (22 Jul 2005)

Quoting alcohol price comparrisons is not a good idea, the tax differentials screw up things too much.

They must love Ireland, the cash they make per store must equate to a few stores in other countries.


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## daltonr (22 Jul 2005)

As far as I know it wasn't Eddie's analysis, it was someone elses report.
I assumed he was talking about Euro Countries.



> I refuse to accept that goods there are on average 20% cheaper. In fact on average, I would guess that overall prices are the same, maybe a couple of percentage points dearer here but no more.


 
I don't travel to the UK as often as you but I was astonished at the value for money I got for a meal in a pub in Glasgow at lunch time.   Even allowing for  the exchange rate the an equivalent meal in Ireland would have been about 30% more expensive.

-Rd


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## Grumpy (22 Jul 2005)

Thats it in a nutshell, daltonr.
Except, its a pup we never ordered and will overpay for anyway.
The solution is a political one.
Who says voting is a waste of time?
Did anyone not vote to achieve  the present state of affairs?


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## daltonr (22 Jul 2005)

> Did anyone not vote to achieve the present state of affairs?


 
Some people did and do vote for it.  But not in a ballot box.  Their vote is cast every year in the Fianna Fail tent at the Galway races.   And in their other "chats" with ministers and TDs.   Some votes are cast by lobby groups who seem to have a particular ability to "get to" FF Back benchers.

Those who vote at the ballot (including me) have been taking a democratic placebo.

One of two things will happen at the next election.  FF will win thanks to their SSIA trick or a lack of an opposition.  They'll see it as an endorsment for more of the same.

or,  Labour/FG/A.N Other will win.  Raise taxes, Raise Spending, no service improvements will follow, they'll be kicked out after 1 term.

Repeat to fade.

-Rd


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## getoffthepot (22 Jul 2005)

RainyDay said:
			
		

> Does it apply to your employer or business?



I don't believe it does. I'm in the Alcohol busines and we are screwed by the Irish Government with exhorbitant duty and vat rates.


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## RainyDay (22 Jul 2005)

getoffthepot said:
			
		

> I don't believe it does. I'm in the Alcohol busines and we are screwed by the Irish Government with exhorbitant duty and vat rates.


So how does your employer set the ex-vat ex-duty price of your products? Do you honestly believe that they don't set the price as high as they believe the market will bear?


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## daltonr (23 Jul 2005)

> So how does your employer set the ex-vat ex-duty price of your products? Do you honestly believe that they don't set the price as high as they believe the market will bear?



That's completely off the point.   The scenario you need to be considering in this country is a publican (or any other businessman) who is also a local counsilor or who's brother or best friend is a local counsillor and who blocks another business from opening up in the area.

In that situation the price that the market will bear is being artificially inflated by exploiting peoples needs and denying them competition.

You'd think to listen to you sometimes that Ireland is some sort of haven of competition and free market economics and the only one consumers have to blame is themselves.   If that genuinely is your belief then you are WAY more naive than I would have assumed from your otherwise well informed posts.

-Rd


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## RainyDay (23 Jul 2005)

Thanks for your advise on what I need to consider, but if it's OK with you, I'll let my original question to getoffthepot stand - How exactly does his employer or business set their ex-vat, ex-duty prices?


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## getoffthepot (23 Jul 2005)

RainyDay said:
			
		

> Thanks for your advise on what I need to consider, but if it's OK with you, I'll let my original question to getoffthepot stand - How exactly does his employer or business set their ex-vat, ex-duty prices?


Cannot answer this in relation to my business as to do so properly would reveal who my employer is and I am not prepared to do that.


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## ubiquitous (23 Jul 2005)

Why not? After all nobody here can personally identify you or anything.

Btw, the entire Irish alcohol industry (brewers, distillers, distributors and publicans) have been screwing the country for generations so, given that you work in the sector, your original "we are being screwed" complaint about Lidl (especially on the pricing of tonic water and soft drinks) now appears a bit hollow to say the least. Especially as Lidl have been brave enough to bypass the notorious Diageo/Heineken/Irish Distillers cartel and introduce their own cheaper drinks brands in recent years...


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## RainyDay (23 Jul 2005)

getoffthepot said:
			
		

> Cannot answer this in relation to my business as to do so properly would reveal who my employer is and I am not prepared to do that.


OK, so I don't blame you for not walking into my trap, but I'll make the point I was going to make once you confirmed that your employer (like almost every business I know) operates market pricing, i.e. sells at the highest price the market will bear, without damaging his long term relationship with his customers. So I reckon your employer is part of rip-off Ireland, and that's what pays your salary. You reckon my employer is part of rip-off Ireland and that's what pays my salary. Are we both right, or both wrong?


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## daltonr (23 Jul 2005)

> Thanks for your advise on what I need to consider, but if it's OK with you, I'll let my original question to getoffthepot stand



It's not ok with me because you're dodging the issue and trying to put the blame for the current state of affairs back on the consumer  when you go on to make the following point.



> but I'll make the point I was going to make once you confirmed that your employer (like almost every business I know) operates market pricing, i.e. sells at the highest price the market will bear, without damaging his long term relationship with his customers. So I reckon your employer is part of rip-off Ireland, and that's what pays your salary. You reckon my employer is part of rip-off Ireland and that's what pays my salary. Are we both right, or both wrong?



Are you going to address the point I made above or are you going to keep singing from the PD Hymn sheet????    You still refuse to address that fact that Irish consumers in a wide range of areas are faced with a combination of 

1. Cartels and Monopolies
2. State Sponsored Restriction of Competition
3. State Underfunding of Consumer and Competition Authorities
4. Rising Indirect taxes which are ultimately passed on to the Consumer

A surprisingly low number of businesses in Ireland operate market pricing in a free market.   Bury your head in the sand if you like,   at least your consistent in not facing up to the lack of value for money accross all areas from Taxes to High Street Prices.

-Rd


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## RainyDay (23 Jul 2005)

I'm pretty stunned that you seem to think I'm under some obligation to listen to you, or pay attention to you, or read your posts, or more particularly respond to your posts. I'll continue to respond to whatever posts or points that I choose to.

The words Pot, Kettle & Black keep springing to mind as you choose to ignore the issue about why all consumers reckon every business is a rip-off except their own.


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## daltonr (24 Jul 2005)

> I'm pretty stunned that you seem to think I'm under some obligation to listen to you


 
You're not under any obligation to listen to me, but since you injected yourself into the discussion I'd have thought common decency would suggest you should at least answer a straight question.



> The words Pot, Kettle & Black keep springing to mind as you choose to ignore the issue about why all consumers reckon every business is a rip-off except their own.


 
I don't know why you think I ignored your question. I answered it immediately. I said my business doesn't fit your theory. I also said that claiming businesses only charge the price that the market will bear needs to be considered in the context of those same businesses being involved in price fixing, or political influence of shut out competition.



> I'll continue to respond to whatever posts or points that I choose to.


 
Of course it's a free country and a free board. if you want to avoid the tricky questions for fear of your "There's no problem" view falling apart, that's fine.

Don't worry about it it's not all that important if we agree on whether there's value for money in Ireland. What's poor value for me might be great value for you. That's Cool.

Interesting as this is, I won't be around for the next few weeks so I'll have to leave it here.

-Rd


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## RainyDay (24 Jul 2005)

daltonr said:
			
		

> I don't know why you think I ignored your question. I answered it immediately. I said my business doesn't fit your theory. I also said that claiming businesses only charge the price that the market will bear needs to be considered in the context of those same businesses being involved in price fixing, or political influence of shut out competition.


The question you're ignoring (possibly from fear of devestation your 'US good, Ireland bad' mantra) is why would someone who works in the drinks industry spout off about rip-off Ireland by criticising price differences between Lidl Ireland & Lidl France rather than focussing on their own industry? But I really would be interested in hearing how you set prices in your own business too.


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## getoffthepot (24 Jul 2005)

RainyDay said:
			
		

> why would someone who works in the drinks industry spout off about rip-off Ireland by criticising price differences between Lidl Ireland & Lidl France rather than focussing on their own industry?



Why I spouted off ?

Alcoholic beverages are not a basic requirement like groceries for one.
Secondly - The high prices in the the drinks industry are primarily due to the greedy publicans and extremely high taxes. 

I am entitled to spout off (I prefer 'highlight') when I see obvious price differences in the market as is everyone else.

The fact that you have targeted me because I have done so will not stop me or anyone else doing so. I don't have control over how my employer sets prices but it does not mean I am wrong to highlight the vast difference others (in this case Lidl) charge(s) for the same item in 2 countries.


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## RainyDay (24 Jul 2005)

Ok - I appreciate that 'spouting' may have been a bit harsh, and I'm not so much aiming my comments directly at you, more so at the general population who moan about rip-off Ireland without doing any kind of realistic analysis.

Why on earth would you expect Lidl to have similar prices here and in France? Even if you don't allow for market pricing, their cost bases would be entirely different. Labour costs are different. Property costs are different. Transport costs are different. Taxes & customs are different. Just about everything that goes into the price of the product is different. So the prices are definitely going to be different. You can't expect Lidl to pay staff Irish wages (which reflect Irish property costs, Irish food costs etc) and charge French prices. 

And while I understand that you don't personally control your employer's pricing, you're not objecting strenuously when the results of that pricing arrives into you bank account each moth. This isn't a criticism - I'm exactly the same myself. But it's a bit hypocritical to moan/spout/highlight about market pricing in one sector while accepting the fruits of market pricing in another sector. 

And let's not kid ourselves that only the publicans & the Govt make money in the drinks industry - the suppliers and the distributors do quite nicely too thank you very much. And do you really consider "tower fans, tonic water, freeway coke and pistachio nuts" to be some of life's essential items. They are no more or less essential than a bottle of beer.


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## Guest127 (24 Jul 2005)

of course everyone selling a product tries to get what the market will stand. Michael O'Leary being no exception, except that he does also offer 'cheapies' in order to fill the seats in order to be able to up the ante as the planes etc fill up. good business. publicans dont run cartels but its as close as damit as a cartel when all pubs in the one area charge the one price for their products and the government are quite happy about this with Mary Harney spouting about 'shopping around' when the government themselves restrict the number of licences available. take the esb as an example of no competition.government money earner or public service or a little bit of both? as for petrol. I see that there is now going to be an objection to tesco every time they apply to open an garage forecourt. competiton obviously is too hot for the petrol retailers. back to drink. of course publicans are getting away with murder on the price of soft drinks and water where there is no government tax except vat. as for the price of beer etc most pubs charge €3 for a bottle of beer while the multiples can sell leading brands for €24 for 24, which is a straight markup of 200%. and as for the likes of Diageo who increase their prices year in year out but cry foul if the government add anything to the price at budget time ( which they havn't to the best of my knowledge for at least 4 years) but that doesn't stop diageo from their annual increase to which the publicans add another few cents and of course the govenment win automatically with vat being collected on the increased price. vicious circle. it doesn't stop me from going to the pub but by choice I now go less often and enjoy a drink at home more often. And I have replaced uncle arthur with beamish partly because its cheaper and to misquote another add ' I cant believe it's not Guinness' 
Cheers


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## CCOVICH (24 Jul 2005)

cuchulainn said:
			
		

> most pubs charge €3 for a bottle of beer



Christ man, where are you living?  In Dublin bottles cost around €4.50.


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## Guest127 (25 Jul 2005)

probably an age thing then. I dont usually buy bottles, but usually stick to draft beer or stout depending on mood,company, weather etc.  beamish costs €1.69 for a 500ml can in Dunnes/Tesco and pigsback have coupons for €1 off a six pack. so call it €1.50 for as near as  no difference a  pint of plain. And I usually get my bottles in Newry/Crossmaglen/Armagh as they are all 'localish'


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## jem (27 Jul 2005)

Well I was in Wales and England all last week.
If anything our experiance gave lie to the falicy of Rip off Ireland in fact the opposite was the case, a few examples:
Train trip up mount snowdon family ticket STG£68 = €100 ouch!!
Cup of tea and a small sandwich - STG€6.5= €9.4 ouch,
Snack box- STG 4.50= €6.52
loaf of bread stg0.5= €0.72
pint of lager stg£2.75= €3.98
In cheshire oaks discount village simular to brand central but with well over 100 shops the cheepest decent pair of trousers I could get was stg £29= €42 brand central suits for you cheeper for same pair.
With regard to our so called 2nd rate health service and everything better else where reading the papers over there would wake you up for example in the Liverpool ecco story about one doctor who was meant to have a max of 1200 patients he actually had 1900/2000 cant remember which because of a shortage of gp's there is a waiting lict for appointments of a week unless you are seriously ill and then would be better to go to hospital, also storys of trollies being uses as beds , same as her but in far greater numbers , cancelled operations etc etc.
This rip off Ireland  saying is a joke.there is one reason why we have relativly high prices here , wage costs there would be an easy way to bring down prices , cut wages, I cant see this happening though, can you???


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## CGorman (27 Jul 2005)

Thank god someones sticking up for good old Ireland!


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## Guest127 (28 Jul 2005)

I've said this before ( and being slagged for it) if Newry etc was so cheap ( and you would think from  the number of D reg cars passing through dundalk every weekend that everything in it was free)and the 'free state' as the norn iron citizens refer to us was so expensive then how come 3 shopping centres thrive in dundalk? why are utv building a shopping centre in dundalk as big as the quays or buttercrane in newry? why is irelands biggest 'discount' village going to be sited in dundalk? because its like everything else. some items are cheaper in the south/ some in the north. not everything in ireland is rip off as jem and cgorman agree. unfortunately some things are but we are a nation of talkers so we talk up the bad points and sometimes down the good.


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## Grumpy (28 Jul 2005)

Nice to see people standing up for the country and not driven just by money.
Fair play/competion in business would be something few might complain about.
       State businesses don`t make sense to me.They make more sense as a monopoly but then their considerations are political and not commercial.
    I accept the recent study that our prices are 20% above the norm/average after all legitimate differences are taken into account.I don`t know anyone who considers it there right and duty to pay this 20% extra, but I do know many who consider it their right and duty to receive it.


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## ubiquitous (28 Jul 2005)

> I accept the recent study that our prices are 20% above the norm/average after all legitimate differences are taken into account.



On what grounds? Much of the anecdotal evidence here indicates that prices here are not much different than in the UK for example. There is not much evidence either that prices in the likes of Paris or Berlin are any cheaper than in Dublin, except perhaps for property. 

Btw, dont fool yourself that monopolies and cartels are solely an Irish phenomenon. The consensus in France and Germany is that their economies have been all but strangled in the past decade by restrictive practices and excessive government regulation.


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## Guest127 (31 Jul 2005)

next week aldi have a HP printer for €79.99. The exact make and model in is the index catalogue for £84 sterling.


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