# Private versus Public Sector? Disillusioned



## Cyrstal (2 Nov 2005)

Anyone feel that they were short changed with the career path they took? I think I was hood winked by the loads of sh*t hot private companies and the 'milk runs' they did to the colleges...I left college, all fired up and went into the private sector, I was made redundant from first job and have spent a number of years contracting....I am so sorry now that I didn't go into the public sector when I left college, the security of it!! A good pension, lots of holidays....anyone else feel like this??? Now if you want to get a permanent job in the public sector, you'd have to start at the bottom of the scale, and you very rarely see full time permanent positions....


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## mts (2 Nov 2005)

Almost the opposite happened me, left college and went into the public sector and was seriously disillusioned for years with crap pay when everyone else it seemed was earning buckets at the height of the celtic tiger. Now 10 years on I think I am in the best job I could possibly be in. As you say security, pension, holidays, flexi time, family friendly work practices and at last I am reasonably well paid after a few promotions and pay rises.


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## ClubMan (2 Nov 2005)

Cyrstal said:
			
		

> Anyone feel that they were short changed with the career path they took? I think I was hood winked by the loads of sh*t hot private companies and the 'milk runs' they did to the colleges...


Are you genuinely blaming these companies mainly or solely on all of the career decisions that you made during your working life to date? What about free will and individual responsibility?


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## D8Lady (2 Nov 2005)

Hi Crystal, 

Know what you mean. I slogged through college, went through a number of IT start-ups, redundant twice, fired once (and proud of it!).Genuine Celtic cub. Am now contracting. I have no idea if job will last for another 2 months. Pension is a PRSA, no employer contribution. 

Or I could have played it safe & gone for what would have been a very cushy number. 

So much for risk & reward.


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## ClubMan (2 Nov 2005)

D8Lady said:
			
		

> So much for risk & reward.


Are you saying that contracting is not working out for you - e.g. that it's not giving you the level of job security and income that you need? If that's the case then why not get another (permanent) job or make a career move if necessary? Nobody owes any of us a job or a living in case anybody assumes that this is the case. I've been through tough jobs (e.g. my current one!) and redundancy myself but I don't consider anybody else to blame for things that I don't like but put up with.


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## z107 (2 Nov 2005)

> I am so sorry now that I didn't go into the public sector when I left college, the security of it!! A good pension, lots of holidays....anyone else feel like this???



I've never worked in the public sector, but from what I've heard about it, I'm reasonably sure that I'd hate it. I hate the idea of being rewarded purely based on how long you've been somewhere. The idea of grades and scales sicken me. I suspect it would suck the very soul from me.

I'd rather no pension, holidays or security than work for the public sector. I suppose enjoying the work I do probably counts for a great deal.


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## moneygrower (3 Nov 2005)

I'm in the public sector and thinking of leaving. It can be draining because things move so slowly and information seems to go from the top down but rarely from the bottom up. I agree there is security and the hours are very reasonable though it's not much fun having loads of holidays when you can't afford to go anywhere. I have seem friends absolutely stretched to the max by private companys trying to squeeze the last drop out of their young ambitious employees and get burnt out.  Public sector burnout is a different kind of thing, more to do with grinding inefficiency and no recognition or support for doing what needs to be done rather than sticking to your job description.


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## ClubMan (3 Nov 2005)

When it comes to work related stress people should remember that too little (hypostress) is as bad as too much (hyperstress) - both are a form of distress - and the ideal is eustress which is the level of stress under which the individual is motivated and performs best. Any form of distress can lead to problems such as disillusionment, depression etc.


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## Cyrstal (3 Nov 2005)

ClubMan said:
			
		

> Are you genuinely blaming these companies mainly or solely on all of the career decisions that you made during your working life to date? What about free will and individual responsibility?


 
Of course I'm not blaming any of these companies for my career moves in the past, the point I was trying to make was that there was no equivalent drive/information provided from the public sector side of things....OF COURSE I am responsible for all of my actions...

Thanks to the rest of you guys for responding, I suppose the grass is always greener.....


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## ClubMan (3 Nov 2005)

OK - so the alleged problem is that the public sector organisations were not doing active recruitment (maybe there were no jobs to fill at the time?) and not that you were "hood winked" by private sector companies as you originally claimed?


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## ajapale (5 Nov 2005)

Im reopening this thread having removed some of the off topic stuff.

I would ask contributers to stay with the topic raised by Crystal.



> .I am so sorry now that I didn't go into the public sector when I left college.



Thanks
aj


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## MOB (5 Nov 2005)

Crystal,

I have no actual public sector work experience, but I have done a lot of work for public sector clients, so I have a reasonable familiarity.  I would make the following observations:

1.    It is not necessarily true that you have to start at the bottom of the scale.   It is quite normal for new recruits to start a few steps up the scale, commensurate with thier private sector experience.

2.   "Job security" is often a red herring.  People who think that they need job security often really need financial security.   A public sector job is only one way of getting this security.

3.    A genuine, sustained and focussed effort to create financial security will produce results.  If it is financial security you crave, don't sell yourself short by "settling" for the public service.   You can find this security some other way.

4.  Work\life balance, a strong interest in politics or a desire to be of service to the public are, in my view, far better reasons to join the public service.  Also, if you just don't particularly care about money (nothing wrong with that), public sector pension arrangements mean that you don't really have to take responsibility for your long term finances.

I hope this is just a phase you are going through, and that things will improve and let you get some perspective on the current situation.


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## ClubMan (5 Nov 2005)

I don't agree with _ajapale's _synopsis/identification of the key point of the original post and feel that this is just as important in terms of discussing the overall issue:


> Anyone feel that they were short changed with the career path they took? I think I was hood winked by the loads of sh*t hot private companies and the 'milk runs' they did to the colleges...


This is a fairly sweeping statement and seems to attribute at least some blame on these companies for the individual's current situation and disillusionment.


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## RainyDay (6 Nov 2005)

Hi Mob - Very insightful post - Can I query a couple of points?

Is it possible that your info about starting up from the bottom of the scale is a bit out of date? I understand that this was often the case a few years ago, particularly in certain depts (Health for one), but that more recent directives from Dept of Finance insist that all new starters start on the bottom of the scale?

And in relation to the bigger question of financial security, would you care to share any general principles or approaches that would allow your average PAYE worker on say €50k or €60k to achieve true financial security?

Best regards - RainyDay


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## onekeano (6 Nov 2005)

ClubMan said:
			
		

> I've been through tough jobs (e.g. my current one!)



and there we were thinking that you spent all you day on AAM in your handy number! ...... 

Roy


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## MOB (7 Nov 2005)

Hi Rainyday,

"Is it possible that your info about starting up from the bottom of the scale is a bit out of date?"

Certainly possible; indeed, as it happens, most of my experience with the public sector is in the Health area.   However, I keep an eye on the jobs pages and I have a fairly strong recollection of seeing more than one public sector job advertised in recent times, where it was clear that starting salary would not necessarily be the bottom of the scale.   I will keep an eye out and let you know if I see more.

As regards ways in which to build financial security, it is true that my perspective is bound to be different from that of a P.A.Y.E. person on €50k\60k.  Such wealth as I have is largely property based, and although I made no effort to accumulate until late '01\early '02, I do not believe that the Irish market today offers the same opportunities as it did just a few short years ago.  Because of my work, I was already very experienced in the property market before I committed any investment to it, so my experience is atypical.  Nevertheless, it is perfectly possible for Crystal to thoroughly research a market before committing investment to it.  And, now that I think of it, except for one venture, my actual cash investment in property has been relatively modest and could probably have been done on a modest income (though it would have meant doing nothing else) - I have been able to get adequate yield and value increase to allow me leverage up each time I wanted to buy something

I do believe that a sustained and focussed effort to create wealth will produce results, but I am not so sure that remaining as a PAYE worker is tha way I would choose.  How to do this while remaining a P.A.Y.E. worker on €50\60k?  I don't have direct experience, so perhaps not the best to say;  but my initial thoughts would be:

1.  Obviously, someone on €50k\60k needs to find a way of earning extra money; Off the top of my head, Crystal could give grinds, better yet, use your computer skills to organise a formal service for grinds (monthly fees instead of per-grind; SMS reminders to parents and children; formal testing of groups of grind students as part of service etc. etc....) and recruit a few teachers, getting a mark-up on their charges;  offer home users after hours I.T. support via the notice board on your local Super Valu;  set up an automated system for processing all the paperwork needed for a work permit application (when the new law is passed) and get a big market share on this work [o.k. this is really more suited to a lawyer, and I am thinking about it, - but an I.T. person could do this with legal support];  start selling on Ebay; 

2.  The "extra" money has to be regarded as untouchable and banked.

3.  When the extra money mounts up, you go looking for investment.  For me that means property.  I like UK property;  I think I like Berlin and Poznan - I am going over to check.  But I am biassed by my experiences, and I would not recommend that a novice investor go further than the UK.  Perhaps Crystal might prefer to buy into a franchise and take control of his\her finances by becoming self -employed once he\she has built up an adequate financial stake.   Again, just giving an example off the top of my head, Juice bars are still in an early growth phase in Ireland;

4. The other old reliable for the PAYE worker in many parts of rural Ireland is to build a house.  If you buy a site, build a house for yourself and sell it after a year or two, the profits are tax free.   The stress and hassle of housebuilding is immense, but the potential is there to build in excess of €100k equity within two years.   I think that the owner of Ballymore homes started his career by selling his house for working capital and moving into rented accommodation;  not a move you could recommend to everybody, but a useful illustration nonetheless.


5.   I used to drive an '89 vehicle; I recently upgraded to a '00 vehicle.  I do have indulgences in my life, and can afford them; but I am constantly amazed at the degree to which people on relatively modest incomes will sacrifice their financial possibilities in order to drive a new-ish car.  If you need to build assets, you need to start by analysing what expenditure in your life is essential and what is discretionary.  Then you need to choose.  Deferred gratification is not very fashionable, but I am a firm believer.


I think Crystal is self employed anyway, but perhaps one of these "self employed I.T. contractor" types who is an employee  in all but name and employment rights.  I think (I hope) that some sharper focus on making money is going to help Crystal.  

Anybody else got any ideas to break Crystal out of this rut?


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## legend99 (7 Nov 2005)

earning 50 or 60k to my mind isn't exactly a bad salary unless you have a specialist qualification such as med or dent.
So what salary(in PAYE terms) do people consider good???


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## Brendan Burgess (7 Nov 2005)

Can we keep the thread to the original subject please as it is an important subject. 

Brendan


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## Cyrstal (8 Nov 2005)

Thanks a million for all the suggestions. I have tried to make money in other ways, have bought shares and own some property....and there's also the lotto  


This article was on the _Irish Independent_ yesterday, stating the Public Sector is better paid than the private? Just seems difficult to get into the Public Sector!!

*Public sector pay is 120pc of private sector salaries* 
Monday November 7th 2005 


Average earnings for workers in the public sector are over €43,000 a year. This compares with €33,500 in the private sector. 


Earnings gap widened significantly after payment of benchmarking awards 
PUBLIC sector pay is on average around 120pc of private sector earnings, having risen from 113pc in the past five years, Davy Stockbrokers calculate. 
In their weekly market comment, Davys say last week's figures from the CSO indicate that average earnings in the public sector are now more than €43,000 a year. This compares with €33,500 in the private sector. 
"Moreover, these crude comparisons take no account of the superior pension entitlements available to the public sector," chief economist Robbie Kelleher says. 
The gap between the two has widened significantly since the payment of the benchmarking awards, even though these were supposed to help the public sector catch up. The final instalment of the average 8.9pc increase was paid last June. 
According to CSO figures, this has spurred public sector pay from 113pc of private sector average earnings in 2000 to around 122pc at present. To put it the other way, private sector earnings have fallen from 82pc to 77pc of public sector pay. 
"The current national partnership deal expires in June 2006 and already there is considerable jockeying for position," Davys say. "Included in these early skirmishes are proposals for a 'Benchmarking Two' exercise. On the basis of recent trends, we hope that the next benchmarking exercise is a good deal more rigorous and transparent than the first." 
Those trends include a general rise in disposable income - even if the public sector's is rising faster - leading Davys to increase their forecasts for personal consumption and, therefore, for economic growth. 
"Significant increases in earnings and employment have been augmented by income tax reductions, at a time when consumer price inflation remains relatively subdued," the brokers say. 
"Most of these positive influences are likely to be sustained. An exceptionally buoyant set of Exchequer returns to October suggested the Minister for Finance will have significant leeway to reduce taxes again in next month's Budget." 
Ireland's high personal savings rate - boosted by the SSIA special accounts - gives consumers scope to increase their spending in coming years. "We now expect national income (GNP) to grow by 5pc in each of the next two years." 

Brendan Keenan


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## Bamhan (8 Nov 2005)

I think it depends on which area of the public sector you are interested in.
I work in the public sector and for my particular job I need a degree and a postgraduate qualification in order to earn the type of salary mentioned in the article above.
It isn't that hard to get into the lower paid jobs but the higher paid jobs often require that you have a significant amount of experience and qualifications in particular areas.

In any sector I imagine it is necessary to begin your career in a lower paid job and then move up the salary scales as you gain experience.

In my case I was attracted to the particular job I do and was not overly influenced by the fact that it was within the public sector.
I think if you simply choose a job, no matter what the job for the security aspects then you may not find it fulfilling and rewarding.
There are vast differences in the types of jobs available within the public sector and not everyone is suited to each and every one.


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## casiopea (8 Nov 2005)

Cyrstal said:
			
		

> Anyone feel that they were short changed with the career path they took? I think I was hood winked by the loads of sh*t hot private companies and the 'milk runs' they did to the colleges.......



This is a very interesting thread.  I can identify with Crystals point.  The private companies sell themselves very heavily on these milk runs,  I remember many evenings with free drinks (the fastest way to a students heart) and previous graduates now working for said company professing how much they earn and how we should all apply.  I easily attended 20 of these events in my final year and did many many interviews (including some that involved flying back and forth from London) when in retrospect I should have been concentrating on my finals and waited until I finished my exams.  Only recently a good friend of mine from my class in college was saying something similiar to crystal, she said she felt she hadnt "read the small print" which I thought was a good way of putting it.  I think its hard when you're 21 to see through what is in essence just a sales pitch, I remember people in my class feeling like failures because they hadnt been successful on the milkruns. The one piece of useful advice I was able to give my brothers and sisters coming up behind me was to ignore the milkruns.

While I identify with Crystals point, I do feel the problem is more that we "didnt read the small print" as oppose to being "cheated". For me I can see many advantages that the private sector has allowed me to date, unfortunately, I can see as I get older how the public sector is a lot more attractive to starting a family etc.  If I were to have a regret it would not be that I joined the private sector but rather that I dont have a "trade".  I think while Business/IT can be great careers, I do envy people that have a trade doctor/nurse/teacher/lawyer/architect/plumber for me, they have a freedom that an IT boffin/consultant/contractor /business developer/management consultant/sales person(*) will never have, they arent as dependent on celtic pussy cats, markets, company quarterly profit margins as we are.  If I leave work for 4 or 5 years to bring up my family I cant go back and do what I do now....however if I were a teacher/lawyer etc. I could.  A bit of a simplified analogy I know.

casiopea.

(*) I do appreciate that for some sales is a "trade", that a good sales man should be able to sell anything from crisps to combine harvestors.


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## buzybee (8 Nov 2005)

I felt a failure when I didn't get a job with the milkruns in college. I had a 2.2 Hons degree in business.  The public sector were not recruiting then.  I got temping work for about a year, and then got into a large financial company. Trained to be an accountant.  I would not like to work in the public sector, unless I could work with figures (either as an accountant or accounts assistant).

I didn't think we were 'short changed' at all with the milk runs.  Everyone knows that the private firms pay good money with opportunities for promotion, but you have to work very hard.  On the other hand, if you get into a public sector job, you have straight hours, extended leave, and a permanent job.  The public sector is all very well, if you get the promotions.  But what if you are about 40, and still a Grade 3 in the public sector.  This may be ok for people who want to work part time or spend time raising children.  But for people who are working full time, watching younger colleagues getting the promotions, this can be depressing.

The thing with the public sector is that 'everyone knows everyone elses business.  Eg. if you are 40 and there 15 yrs at the same level, all your colleagues will know that you didn't ever get promoted.  (Maybe I am a bit sensitive here, but I would feel a little bit ashamed).  On the other hand, if you are with a private company for years, and have been passed over for promotion, you can always move to another company, and former colleagues won't know whether you got promoted or not.

Regarding the post about having a 'trade' i.e. training for a specific job, I can understand this.  I would not urge younger siblings to stay away from the milk run.  People still have enough time to get a permanent Clerical Officer job in their 20s and work their way up. However I would definitely urge younger siblings to TRAIN FOR A PARTICULAR JOB, INSTEAD OF DOING A DEGREE IN BUSINESS/MANAGEMENT.  The general management experience (which the milk runs give) is fine while you have a job.  But if you get made redundant/take time out to have a family, it can be quite hard to get back into a similiar type job at the same level again.  This would also apply for the sales/marketing/broad financial jobs.  

When I finished college I got into a financial company, with good promotion etc.  I started doing accountancy exams, as I knew the financial jobs are scarce outside Dublin. When I got made redundant, I had to go back to work as an accounts assistant (with a massive pay cut).  I didn't have the experience which other accountants had built up thru the years, e.g. Debtors Creditors etc.  It is only now, 3 yrs later,  that my pay is getting back on track.  Sometimes I wish I had done accountancy straight from college, as I would be earning more money now, and could work anywhere in Ireland.  

I did work experience and temping in the public sector.  One place was nice, as I dealt with figures but I didn't like the general admin.  I would imagine having to do general admin (lots of repetitive work) could be very boring. Of course this would depend on the nature of the department.  Another deciding factor was 'dealing with the general public'.  I found in my public sector jobs, that the general public could be very rude and stressful to deal with. (even so called 'respectable' people would treat us like we could do nothing right)  I find that dealing with other companies (reception/sales/accounts staff) is much easier as they are doing a job and are not rude.


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