# Dilemma with tenant



## Moon light (11 May 2017)

Hi, I am hoping for some advise on this issue,

A tenant moved in July 14, I increased the rent marginally one year later, Looking back I should have increased it to market value but I didn't as felt sorry for her, Looking back house was mess also but she pleaded with me and I let her remain in it. How foolish of me...

Now house is absolutely filthy -  I understand that it is up to me to replace carpets and paint the walls, but do I have to have whole house deep cleaned, replace every single blind and curtain, get mantelpiece fixed, fix doors & completely redo the garden outside as it has been trashed,
Neighbours are also telling me that she has a lodger, I asked her and she did say that a sibling of hers does live there from time to time.
I am quite stressed over this and to top it all of she is also now paying 500 below market rent,
I just want to take back my house, redo it up, bring it back to its former glory and re-let it again,
I wouldn't be so annoyed if she was keeping it well but it upsets me to see the state of it,
I am on the verge of serving her an eviction notice as I want to do renovations to the house, Upgrade heating system, insulate attic, put down all new floors throughout, paint whole house, Put up new blinds, fix up garden, maybe put in new kitchen, Will this suffice as renovations ?
The eviction notice says that I have to offer the house back to her !!! Seems like there is nothing to protect the landlord here, Is there anyway around not having to offer the house back to her seeing as she has wrecked it, I am literally going to have to spend thousands on doing it up,

Also she wants to me sign a rent allowance form which I won't do due to the state of the house, She has also said that if I sign the rent allowance form, she will let me increase the rent by €125, I advised her this was illegal as I am only allowed to increase the rent by 4% and I am not in a position to do any increase until the 2 yrs are up which is July 17 and I have to give 90 days notice also so the new rent increase won't come into effect until Oct 17,
Is that right?
The last lease that was signed was in July 15, is there anyway I can terminate the tenancy in July 17 with the 90 days notice or does she have right to a part 4 tenancy ?

Sorry for all the questions but if someone can advise me I would appreciate any help/opinions,

tks


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## odyssey06 (11 May 2017)

If you are now 500 below market rent, after you properly renovate it, isn't there a chance the tenant will now be priced out of it?
Or will have found somewhere cheaper during the renovations?

Also, take photos of the place prior to any renovations. 
Do you have a case to retain the current deposit and seek another new - hefty deposit?
Is there anything to stop you looking now for a fresh deposit of 3 months? 6 months?
That might also deter the new tenant from returning.

If the place is as badly wrecked as you say it is, regardless of RPZ rules, would you have a case for eviction?


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## Moon light (11 May 2017)

I think I do have a case for eviction but how do I know for sure ?
Should I get an estate agent out to look at it and see what they advise ?
Yes I think she would be priced out of it if I increased the rent to market levels, but then again who knows,
If I carry this through and issue the notice, can I get into trouble and be fined over this, ?


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## odyssey06 (11 May 2017)

I'd recommend having a read of this... it covers grounds for eviction, retention of deposits, distinguishing between "damages" and "normal wear and tear".
https://www.irishlandlord.com/faq/managing/

I think you definitely need to take photos... you can just say you want to be able to show 'before' and 'after' for the renovations so you don't raise the suspicions of the tenant.
Any estimate of damages to be used for grounds for eviction or retention of deposit needs to come from an independent professional... maybe a surveyor would be better than an estate agent? Im not sure.


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## SqueezedMiddle (12 May 2017)

Just pray she doesn't decide to stop paying rent and just stay.
She can do that and you will be literally years getting her out.
It's not a good time to be a landlord.


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## Moon light (12 May 2017)

Thanks for all replies, Am I right in saying that she has a right to the house for 4 yrs since July 14, ?
tks


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## odyssey06 (12 May 2017)

Moon light said:


> Thanks for all replies, Am I right in saying that she has a right to the house for 4 yrs since July 14, ? tks



My reading of this says yes:
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/if_your_landlord_wants_you_to_leave.html

You would need to act at the end of the 4 year cycle to prevent another one starting.

btw have there been complaints from neighbours about anti social behaviour - if the behaviour is severe?
If you can get complaints from neighbours that would strengthen your case for eviction.


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## Setanta12 (12 May 2017)

Start process to get rid of her.  String out the renovations for a few months if you can.  Look for an address to send post to.  Send all communications to her by registered-post, even if at current address - you need this for the PRTB which will come later in the process.  Do everything by letter of law (read, re-read, read third time PRTB website and give extra days to all deadlines/windows in processes outlined there )

You will take a financial hit. But the pain is better now.


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## Moon light (12 May 2017)

Tks Setanta - I will triple read everthing,
Do you think I should issue eviction notice myself or should I go through an estate agent, ?
Does anyone think my list of renovations are adequate ?
Odyssey the neighbours have just told me there is a lodger that's all - no anti social behaviour,
and I don't think they will speak up against her even though they are telling me to see if I can evict her,
She is not going to find another hse to rent at the price she has my house for, with 5 kids, a husband and a lodger, will she get a social house or end up in a hotel room, does anyone know? I am concerned about this as I don't want to see her homeless,


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## delfio (12 May 2017)

You are too kind . The Council will have to house her seeing she has a husband and five kids. The lodger will have to fend for her/ himself.

It's your property, you got to look after your own interest, so don't be feeling guilty.


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## Bronte (14 May 2017)

My view on this is that OP should jet the woman stay. The place is wrecked. So what. You'll have to pay for it anyway. So I'd do a lease with the increased rent, with that extra money being not rent, but a fee for the replacement of the damage. Take pictures and discuss with tenant. Then set that money aside to pay for the renovations when she leaves. I'd run that by the PRTB if I were you. In writing. 

VERY hard to get a women with so many kids out. You don't want to go down that road and if you make her cross she might stop paying you rent altogether.


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## Moon light (18 May 2017)

Tks so much everyone for all your advise, So I got an estate agent out to look at the house and he said it was a disgrace, and that I should move on getting her out as she has no respect for it and by leaving her there, I am allowing it to get into a worse condition than its already in.
I am now very much thinking of sending the eviction notice advising that I am renovating the house,
The estate agent is saying that because there is a lease in place since July 15, the tenant has a right to the house until July 17 and a further 3 mths which will be Oct 17, does anyone know if this is correct as I haven't read this anywhere,
Also I am unable to find the lease and I don't know if the tenant has hers either,


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## SqueezedMiddle (18 May 2017)

So she has wrecked your house and you have to let her stay.
You must be joking


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## odyssey06 (18 May 2017)

Between two and three years tenancy, you must give 8 weeks notice, unless you are evicting on grounds of anti-social behaviour:
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/e..._your_landlord_wants_you_to_leave.html#la1b6d


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## Sarenco (18 May 2017)

Well, you will have to decide whether you are going to seek to terminate the tenancy on the grounds that:

(a) your tenant has failed to fulfil her obligations to maintain the property in good order; or 

(b) whether you wish to proceed on the "substantial refurbishment" ground (in which case your tenant has a right of first refusal if the property becomes available for letting within 6 months of the termination/resolution of an RTB adjudication).

The former entitles you to terminate the tenancy with 28 days' notice, although the notice can only be issued after a warning notice has issued giving the tenant a "reasonable opportunity" to remedy the breach.

The RTB website contains sample notices of termination:-
https://www.rtb.ie/dispute-resolution/dispute-resolution/sample-notices-of-termination

Either way, I would suggest that your agent needs to brush up on his understanding of the residential tenancy legislation!


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## Thirsty (18 May 2017)

As we have seen else where the best reason to give for termination is that you need the property for yourself or a family member.

You won't be able to relet for 6 months; but that might be preferable to a bad tenant overholding.


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## Sarenco (18 May 2017)

I'm not convinced that's the right option here Thirsty.

Moon Light would then have to give 56 days notice of termination and take property off the rental market for 6 months, assuming her tenant actually left at the end of the notice period (or risk the current tenant looking to re-let the property or subsequently making a complaint to the RTB).

I would have thought the "breach of tenant obligations" ground would be the better way to go.

Unfortunately, I suspect it's probably inevitable that this is going to end up going to adjudication with the RTB and, ultimately, it will wind it's way through the Courts until an eviction order is secured and enforced by the Sheriff.  That will take months so the shorter the notice period at the outset the better (termination for breach of tenant obligations only requires 28 days' notice).


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## SqueezedMiddle (19 May 2017)

And a woman and her kids with long faces pictured on the front of the indo with a headline like.

Cruel landlord evicts poor family.

TV3 will probably also make a TV doc about you.

At least a writeup in the journal .

Seriously though, this is why a lot of my friends don't let to people with kids.  It's the potential for undeserved bad press should they need to evict them.


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## Moon light (19 May 2017)

Seems like there is not much in favour of the landlord in these situations, I have certainly learnt my lesson and won't be letting to such a big family again, if I wait until her part 4 tenancy is over - do I still have to give a reason for not renewing her tenancy ?


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## Thirsty (19 May 2017)

> I suspect it's probably inevitable that this is going to end up going to adjudication with the RTB and, ultimately, it will wind it's way through the Courts until an eviction order is secured and enforced by the Sheriff.


exactly - which is why it's better to say it's for your own/family use; at least with the 6 months vacancy you have a known fixed loss.  Not an unknown, and increasing-by-the-day loss.

The 'own use' termination cannot be contested.


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## Sarenco (19 May 2017)

Thirsty said:


> The 'own use' termination cannot be contested.



Of course it can!

Envisage this scenario -

Moon Light gives her tenant 56 days' notice of termination citing the "own use" ground.  56 days come and go and the tenant fails to vacate the property, saying she has nowhere else to go.  So, Moon Light has to seek a Determination Order from the RTB.  The average processing time for such cases is approximately 5 months, this is from application received to Determination Order issued where no appeal is received.

So Moon Light now has her determination order but her tenant still fails to vacate the property.  So now she has to go to Court.

Where the terms of a Determination Order have not been complied with within the specified timeframe, Moon Light can opt to enforce their own Determination Order through the Circuit Court (which is costly).  Alternatively, she can apply to the RTB to initiate enforcement proceedings against her tenant.  Needless to say this all takes time.

After all that, the tenant could still subsequently dispute the grounds upon which the tenancy was terminated!  In other words, she could complain to the RTB after she is evicted that Moon Light did not in fact require the property for her own use.

The whole process is so long-winded that opting for the root with the shortest possible notice period at the outset seems like the better option to me.


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## Sarenco (19 May 2017)

Moon light said:


> Seems like there is not much in favour of the landlord in these situations, I have certainly learnt my lesson and won't be letting to such a big family again, if I wait until her part 4 tenancy is over - do I still have to give a reason for not renewing her tenancy ?



You can terminate the tenancy without giving any grounds before a further Part 4 tenancy comes into existence by serving a notice of termination providing the minimum notice period required under the Act (in line with the tenancy occupation), with the notice period set to expire on or after the end of the Part 4 tenancy cycle. 

You need to be careful with the notice period here - it's very easy to get it wrong so err on the side of caution.


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## SqueezedMiddle (19 May 2017)

Moon light said:


> Seems like there is not much in favour of the landlord in these situations, I have certainly learnt my lesson and won't be letting to such a big family again, if I wait until her part 4 tenancy is over - do I still have to give a reason for not renewing her tenancy ?



You have to give a reason but it can be anything you like in that case.


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## Sarenco (19 May 2017)

SqueezedMiddle said:


> You have to give a reason but it can be anything you like in that case.



Well, the stated reason for the termination of the tenancy in those circumstances could simply be "the fact that the landlord is entitled to terminate the tenancy before a Further Part 4 tenancy cycle commences and by providing the minimum notice period applicable pursuant to the Residential Tenancies Acts 2004 to 2016".


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## Moon light (19 May 2017)

Bronte I took your point on board about leaving her and charging "extra" not as rent but to do the house up at the end of the part 4 tenancy and putting this in writing with the RTB, but I am concerned about this as could come back to bite me in someway shape or form at the end of the tenancy,

Maybe I should give her a chance to remedy the property, does this mean that she must rectify blinds, curtains, mantelpiece, garden, doors, skirting boards, and its up to me to do carpets and paintwork.
Do I give her 28 days to do this, ?

If she fails then can I give an eviction notice based on her not keeping the house properly ?


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## Thirsty (19 May 2017)

> Of course it can!


You misunderstand me.  The landlord says, I need property for my own use.  The tenant cannot contest this statement.  They can still attempt to over hold, but they have no defence.  We've had this discussion here before on AAM, owner does not need to declare the property as PPR or even stay over night in it. 

If landlord says, you didn't adhere to your lease/condition of property, the tenant can attempt to disprove that assertion.



> give her a chance to remedy the property


Leopard doesn't change its spots. Wasting your time in my opinion.


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## Sarenco (19 May 2017)

Thirsty said:


> The tenant cannot contest this statement.


Sure she can.  It may be extremely difficult to do so successfully but that's a different point.

Moon Light's goal is surely to secure vacant possession and re-let the property in the shortest time possible - assuming the tenant does not remedy the breach.


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## SirMille (19 May 2017)

You need it for yourself.

Give notice.
If the tenant fails to vacate
Simply let yourself in and go to bed.
She will soon move out.
Try walking around naked, that'll help!


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## Moon light (19 May 2017)

lol...tks SirMille - believe me I wouldn't go to bed in there, the state of it, mould everywhere from no ventilation,
am so confused - literally don't know which is the best action to take,


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## Moon light (19 May 2017)

and yes Sarenco - that is my goal - to secure vacant possession and re-let the property in the shortest time possible - assuming the tenant does not remedy the breach,


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## Sarenco (19 May 2017)

Moon light said:


> mould everywhere from no ventilation,



In that case, you need to act promptly or you could have a case for damages on your hands.

I think the obvious thing to do is to issue a formal notice to your tenant to rectify the issues identified by your agent within a reasonable timeframe (28 days sounds about right).  Include a schedule of all the items that need to be tackled by the tenant (disregard normal wear and tear).

At the end of the 28 days, carry out a further inspection and if things haven't improved (take photos) issue a 28 day notice of termination for failure to maintain the property in good order.

Unfortunately securing vacant possession is probably going to take some time but the sooner you start...


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## Ceist Beag (26 May 2017)

OP, have a read of this thread which suggests all you need do is say you are selling your property to evict the tentant. If you advertise it for a short period it seems you can then withdraw the ad and put it back up for rent.
I'm not arguing whether it is right or wrong to do so but if you read that thread there seems to be no real suggestion that the landlord was wrong to do what they did there.


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## Moon light (1 Jun 2017)

Tks Ceist Beag - the thought of putting it up for sale has actually gone through my mind, get rid of completely and be done with the stress of it all,


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