# New build in Wexford - est of costs???



## selfbuildwx (8 Dec 2010)

Hi all, I am new to this.
I am hoping to start building early next year hoping planning etc goes according to plan.
Will be looking at building a traditional farmhouse style build 2 storey with single storey extension, approx 2300 sq feet.
However I haven't a clue of the likely costs of this.
I realise that it cannot be exactly answered without plans and more detailed information, but I have no idea of a guide to go on.
Would be very grateful if there is anyone out there who could give me some guidelines so I can figure whether my house is far too unrealistic to meet budget.
Thanks.


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## wexford7 (8 Dec 2010)

Hi selfbuildwx,

I have recently built a 3300sq ft dormer, timber frame house. I haven't the total breakdown as of yet, but to give you a general idea here it goes. I have managed to get within my 200k budget with some furnishings.

Solictors - 2900
Co. Council - 2000
ESB Network - 1644
Windows - 10000
Treatment plant - 3540
Well Drilling & Pumps - 2600
Kitchen - 7000
Builder total - 140000
Plumbing - 15000
Architect Tech - 2000 (BER Cert incl)
Spent extras on Insulation etc.  

Its a basic breakdown, haven't the full breakdown here with me, have it at home on my laptop. But the house is insulation far better than todays regs, plumbing includes oil burner, back boiler stove, emersion, Solar panels, all rads, and bathroom suites. Also spent extra on putting footpaths around the house, and hiring JCB for a week or so on the external ground work. Thankfully I was given a site, so was able to get 100% mortgage. Started work in April, moved in last week, before the snow arrived. Obviously as i've mentioned its a basic breakdown.


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## selfbuildwx (8 Dec 2010)

Thanks a million for the reply Wexford7.

You have given me somewhat of a guideline to go by.

We have also been given the site, as well as having plumber/electrician and machinery etc to hand so hopefully that will give us a bit of room to keep costs down somewhat.

Best of luck with your new home.


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## wexford7 (8 Dec 2010)

Many Thanks for the well wishes.

Just a few pointers.. its well worth the money on extra insulation. Also spent extra on gransite window cills for the front of the house. Ordinary concrete ones at the back. have noticed in recent days cracking on the concrete cills already due to heavy frost. Well worth looking into. Having read through this website and boards.ie I picked up loads of ideas. Large utility room, extra sockets etc, large walk in airing/hotpress etc. Best of luck with the upcoming build.... let us know how you get on...


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## bluemac (8 Dec 2010)

wow great cost e.g
my well cost me about 4k to drill and 1k for pumps in and installed


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## selfbuildwx (8 Dec 2010)

I really appreciate all the info.
The more I can get the better idea I will have going forward, as its really just a minefield I think - so all pointers/guides re the cost are welcome.

Bluemac - thanks for the additional details re the well.

Wexford7 - thanks for the pointers re the sockets/utility & especially the cills.


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## wexford7 (8 Dec 2010)

Thankfully I'm in realitive good area. The well is 65ft down, water is safe enough to drink, but has high levels of manganese, which leaves stains on the washing and sinks etc. Will have to fork out another 1300 for a filter for that. My parents well which is around 50yards away, was hand dug 50years ago and is only 20ft deep, still going stong today with clearer water...

Cost me €900 for local man to fitt the well pump and pressurised tank. BARGAIN.


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## demoivre (8 Dec 2010)

The [broken link removed] might give you some guidelines on basic cost. There is however a massive difference in the prices of different types of kitchens, tiles, bathroom fittings, light fittings, curtains etc. - the sky is the limit in my experience !


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## bluemac (8 Dec 2010)

just looked my costs up well was 5k pump 1k
windows 33k
UFH system €8k boiler €12k pipes €3k hot tank €3k extras
€23k block work
14k roofing wood structure and tiles put up/on
tiles... dont even ask they are like bangor blue (have some spare ridges like ones on corination street if any one wants to buy some)
Roughly electircs with wire (no finishings) €14k
fround work stone concrete digger ect €20k

having said that its a big house and site.. but the costs above you can account for... its really the box of nails the piece of wood.. that all add up to your 3k  a month bill from your local supplier.


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## onq (8 Dec 2010)

wexford7 said:


> Hi selfbuildwx,
> 
> I have recently built a 3300sq ft dormer, timber frame house. I haven't the total breakdown as of yet, but to give you a general idea here it goes. I have managed to get within my 200k budget with some furnishings.
> 
> ...



The above list totals €200,594.00, which for what you got seems an excellent price.

I'd be interested to learn what the Arch Tech did for you for the €2,000.00

Also you've nothing included for the electrics, lighting and insulation.

I'd be interested to know what kind, location and depth of insulation and what construction was used, timber, hollow block, cavity?

Have you put in a driveway, boundary treatment and entrance and roughly what did they cost?

Finally, were all those figures inclusive or exclusive of VAT?

Even with all that filled in, it still seems like a great price.

TIA

Best of luck with it.


ONQ.


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## selfbuildwx (8 Dec 2010)

Bluemac just wondering what size house you built?? Cost seems very reasonable.

Onq what would your guide cost per sq foot be?

Demoivre - thanks for the link, I will take a look through it.


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## wexford7 (9 Dec 2010)

ONQ,

Just to answer some of your questions, best I can. 
Firstly I make the above prices out at €186,684.00.....

Architect drew up the design and submitting to council, did the percolation testing, signed off on the different stages and is going the BER cert, it might be abit more than 2000, as its not really coming out of the 200k mortgage, its coming from savings. The site itself is 0.75 acre on a flat land, doesn't require much work, driveway or entrance, fair enough is not done yet, the drive at the moment is just hardcore, for now we plan to get some pebble filling. Now on to the tech bit. Electrics, Lighting, standard insulation came within the builders price. Spent an extra few grand on upping the grade of insulation. 100mm xtraterm in the floor. Its a timber framed house, the builder is a carpenter by trade, so he done all that, he then contracted out the other trades... Anyway there is 100mm of spray on insulation (recyled newspaper, can't think of the right name), then there is 1inch insulated plaster board, this on all external walls. Internal walls we used 100mm xtraterm sound and heat insulator. In the roof there is 140mm glass fibre glass, with again 1inch insulated plaster board. 

Some prices included VAT, some prices were Cash deals  Cash is king. We could have saved alot more. I said earlier it was a dormer, however its more a bungalow than anything, just with the attic converted. Might as well do the converting at this stage, rather than down the line, when we won't have the money. We spent extras on tiles, flooring and stoves....


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## bluemac (9 Dec 2010)

Roughly the house is 5200 sqft with outbuildings those cost were only a section of the costs. I did a lot of the work myself..  not yet finished and expect the costs to be around €440 plus the site costs. did plans myself, but got sign off each stage which costs 1500 for 6 visits  I budgeted 380k including site costs...  so was very far off... I had no idea..   I think the main thing when doing a budget if you are building yourself over 2 years add 3k a month for contingency.  and add at least 20% to your costs. then you may be close.


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## selfbuildwx (9 Dec 2010)

Bluemac, thanks again for the reply.  I'm getting an average of about 85 per sq ft for your build, which again sounds reasonable.

Thanks for the info, including the pointers on the contingency back up, and best of luck with the rest of your build.


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## onq (10 Dec 2010)

wexford7 said:


> ONQ,
> 
> Just to answer some of your questions, best I can.
> Firstly I make the above prices out at €186,684.00.....



Yes, sorry, you're quite correct wexford 7 - oops!

I think I added in a ballpark extra 14,000 - I estimated the addition cost for landscaping, path and insulation. I should have noted that - apologies for any confusion.



> Architect drew up the design and submitting to council, did the percolation testing, signed off on the different stages and is going the BER cert, it might be abit more than 2000, as its not really coming out of the 200k mortgage, its coming from savings.


€2,000 would be very light for a comprehensive service, percolation test and certification.


> The site itself is 0.75 acre on a flat land, doesn't require much work, driveway or entrance, fair enough is not done yet, the drive at the moment is just hardcore, for now we plan to get some pebble filling.


Hardcore might be easier to negotiate in the snow and ice, but its nasty stuff to fall on.


> Now on to the tech bit. Electrics, Lighting, standard insulation came within the builders price.


Sounds a good price if it included the electrics - did he supply a qualified sparks for that price?


> Spent an extra few grand on upping the grade of insulation. 100mm xtraterm in the floor.


This gives 0.15 or so it seems to say here.
[broken link removed]
0.15 isn't "additional" afaik, its required with U/F heating.


> Its a timber framed house, the builder is a carpenter by trade, so he done all that, he then contracted out the other trades...


Are you saying this isn't from a timber frame supplier?
What engineer signed off on the structural load calculations and certified the frame design?


> Anyway there is 100mm of spray on insulation (recyled newspaper, can't think of the right name),


I'd be interested to learn more about this - I have had poor experience in a fire emergency with blown fill insulation in a fire situation in an attic. 

Typically blown fill insulation can settle - I'm not familiar with spray on  stuff, but I'd say there's room for operator error, but the little  research I did a while back on recycled paper products suggested it was  generally not as good as HD board in terms of u-value or Rockwool  products in terms of fire-proofing.

On the fire issue, he details around opes and the ceiling wall junction must be done correctly if there is a sleeping occupancy upstairs to prevent the passage of fire but also cold smoke, fumes and carbon monoxide, which are silent killers. This is one of those must-have details, its not optional and must be done right on site.


> then there is 1inch insulated plaster board, this on all external walls.


25 mm board usually used around opes on block builds.
Whatever about Rockwool and fibreglass insulation, I'd be a little concerned about the recycled paper and also how you prevent water vapour getting at it through every services penetration - are you using a services duct?


> Internal walls we used 100mm xtraterm sound and heat insulator. In the roof there is 140mm glass fibre glass, with again 1inch insulated plaster board.


Does this insulation follow the line of the roof as per TGD F?
http://www.environ.ie/en/Publicatio...ng/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad,1647,en.pdf
p. 28, Diagram 11, Detail D.

Because 140 mm + 25 sounds light and adding more quilted insulation above the ceiling will fill up the 50mm air gap - again there are details needed to avoid penetration of the structure by water vapour and cavity ventilation details at eaves and ridge to be followed. Perhaps you should ave a chat to your architect about these.


> Some prices included VAT, some prices were Cash deals  Cash is king. We could have saved alot more. I said earlier it was a dormer, however its more a bungalow than anything, just with the attic converted. Might as well do the converting at this stage, rather than down the line, when we won't have the money. We spent extras on tiles, flooring and stoves....


Still a good price though.

My advice would be for you to ask your architect - not your builder - to check out the stuff above and see if there are any other compliance issues that may need to be addressed.

He should then discuss them with you and it would be best to take any required remedial measures now, while its cost effective to do so.


ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon                                                       as a defence or      support  -     in     and    of        itself  -         should            legal             action        be           taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in                                                       Real Life with   rights    to         inspect     and       issue         reports    on       the                    matters    at           hand.


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## Troy McClure (11 Dec 2010)

And some would have you believe it cant be done.....


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## RKQ (12 Dec 2010)

onq said:


> €2,000 would be very light for a comprehensive service, percolation test and certification.
> .


 100% agree but not too surprised. 
Lots of qualified Techs in Wexford, struggling for survival. 
How 2K covers costs - Certification, site inspections, Soil Test, P.I insurance, Tax / VAT, heating, electricity, car expenses etc beats me.......


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## onq (12 Dec 2010)

Troy McClure said:


> And some would have you believe it cant be done.....



It can be done by someone going out of business, and applauded by people who:

- didn't have to put their earning potential on hold to get their qualification and 

- don't understand the difference between what you charge out and what goes in to your back pocket after the cost of running a business is taken out.

In the present case, I suspect it will be a negative amount.

And given the issues I have raised above merely en passant, I suspect there may be areas of the house where compliance with the requirements of the Building Regulations may be difficult to prove.

Sure its all a great laugh to people getting things donefor a great price, until it comes time to get the work certified, or - if bent certs are issued - until they get checked by a competent professional and found wanting.

  ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied  upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be  taken. 
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to  advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the  matters at hand.


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## Troy McClure (15 Dec 2010)

Of course it couldn't be right. The fear mongering trick again. There are trades people and architects who are debt free with low overheads and run a tight ship. Because most others have huge debts ran up over the boom years to pay off, or high lease rentals on shiney premise's is their problem. One of these groups cant compete with the other. TOUGH!
I work with an architect who has left a practice to go it alone from home as he feels the firm is going under due to their overheads and work practice's. He is doing fine and is chargeing far less than what was been billed for him. Oh! and he is compliant in every way required.

I suppose the next thing is to call the bottom of the housing market.. You sound like a Fianna Fail'er man.


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## onq (15 Dec 2010)

I have a track record on this site and elsewhere of offering impartial, competent, professional advice for free. Are you suggesting your architect colleague has found a way to better that?

Didn't think so.

Then you should begin to realise that if you reject people who expect to be paid a living wage for their work  just because it suits your argument and if you accuse people of fear  mongering when all they're doing is point out out areas of possible  non-compliance - you may appear lacking in credibility.

I'm not calling the market, in fact speculating on house prices is expressly forbidden on AAM, so I'm not being drawn into that either.

But I totally endorse your architect colleague's strategy.
I have operated as a sole trader for over a decade and I recommend it.
However if he intends to offer a professional service then he needs to watch his pricing and his fee agreements.
There are plenty of potential bad debtors out there who are only too happy to prey on building professionals who are down on their luck and drive them into debt by expecting them to finance them with short [or long!] term loan arrangements on fees.

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied   upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be   taken. 
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to  advise in  Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the  matters at  hand.


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## RKQ (16 Dec 2010)

Troy McClure said:


> The fear mongering trick again. There are trades people and architects who are debt free with low overheads and run a tight ship.


 
A home office requires heating, electricity a computer, printer and photocopier, a fax a desk, a filing cabinet etc. Your former collegue will need same and his / her fee will include certain "running costs"

P.I insurance is a certain amount as is Employers Liability insurance or Public Liability insurance. Petrol or Diesel is quite expensive whether you drive a "2000" or "2010". 

I don't believe in excessive fees. I do however believe that a business needs to make a profit to survive. I need to make a living, I run a very tight ship but alas I can not compete with "below cost" selling. I also believe that when you start your own business it is very easy to under charge. Many new business' fail because of this. It is very easy to mis-calculate income v's real expenditure = net profit (or loss)


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## Troy McClure (16 Dec 2010)

onq said:


> Then you should begin to realise that if you reject people who expect to be paid a living wage for their work just because it suits your argument and if you accuse people of fear mongering when all they're doing is point out out areas of possible non-compliance - you may appear lacking in credibility.
> 
> I'm not calling the market, in fact speculating on house prices is expressly forbidden on AAM, so I'm not being drawn into that either.
> 
> .


Your the one lacking in credibility. The architects I work are not on here subtly touting themselves in the guise of free advice. I guess it's accidental your website address is at the bottom of your post. They are fully compliant with many years experience, hard working, and are turning a profit at levels you seem incapable of understanding. They are busy enough not to have the time to be on forums every second day. 
They are not dishonest or lacking acumen just because you can’t reconcile yourself to them. They certainly wouldn't talk to people in an air of condescendion that's in the last couple of posts, which is best consigned to the dinosaurs that cling to the boom years mentality.

Only in Ireland!!


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## onq (16 Dec 2010)

RKQ said:


> A home office requires heating, electricity a computer, printer and photocopier, a fax a desk, a filing cabinet etc. Your former collegue will need same and his / her fee will include certain "running costs"
> 
> P.I insurance is a certain amount as is Employers Liability insurance or Public Liability insurance. Petrol or Diesel is quite expensive whether you drive a "2000" or "2010".
> 
> I don't believe in excessive fees. I do however believe that a business needs to make a profit to survive. I need to make a living, I run a very tight ship but alas I can not compete with "below cost" selling. I also believe that when you start your own business it is very easy to under charge. Many new business' fail because of this. It is very easy to mis-calculate income v's real expenditure = net profit (or loss)


 
The real problems begin and end with the accounts.

- not charging VAT when you should [you should be so lucky!]
- charging VAT and living off it instead of making timely returns
- forgetting to provide for your income tax return at year's end
- not factoring in costs that used to be paid for by your employer

paper
ink
electricity
heating
lighting
P.I. cover
Employee cover [you should be so lucky again!]
upgrading your car insurance
upgrading provision for fuel, tyres, wear, tear, extra depreciation and servicing on you mode of transport.
- the appointment of a chartered accountant [negotiate him down]
- the formal negotiation and agreement of an overdraft or loan facility that may be identified by your business plan as being needed.
- the formulation of a business plan.
- business laptop/PC plus printer
- business software with license [Microsoft sued - was it two years ago - €70,000 or so for not having *all* the "seats" covered]
- upgraded house insurance to cover business risks, including replacement of drawings if lost or damaged.
- pension contribution
- etc - and yes this is not an exhaustive list.

All of this is common sense stuff, but seldom gets done properly by persons moving from contract of emplyment to sole tradership status.

Ballparking you'll be lucky to see half your turnover after deducting all your business costs.

Unless that figure pays the bills, you'll go under in around 18 months depending on your savings/severance package.

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken. 
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at hand.


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