# Has Anyone found Danske to be forcing loans into default?



## UnderClass (30 Jun 2014)

Danske has recently placed my outstanding loans into default and are going all out to sell underlying properties.

One of five loans went into arrears for 3 months (for the first time ever) for small amounts (less than 1,500 in total). Because I hadn't cleared the arrears, they called in that loan at month 3 + 6 days. A month later the remaining loans (all of which were being fully serviced) were called in.

Theres been no contact from Danske by phone to discuss this at all.

Is this part of Danske's accelerated attempts to leave Ireland? Has anyone else experienced similar treatment?


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## Brendan Burgess (30 Jun 2014)

Hi UnderClass 

You need to take legal advice on this immediately. 

The contract presumably allows this. 

It raises very interesting questions for borrowers with multiple loans with the three banks who are trying to leave the market.  The borrowers need to be especially careful about not going into arrears. 

Brendan


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## Commercial (30 Jun 2014)

Hi Underclass.
I am dealing with all of the banks and since January Danske are showing that they are not waiting around to get loans resolved. I have cases, where we are negotiating with them and in the background they are appointing receivers and taking legal action. They seem to want out and in a hurry.
Have you tried to contact Danske directly? I find that they will still be wiling to speak to you and try and get the issue resolved. However, I would call them asap, as they are not hangin around in taking action.


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## UnderClass (30 Jun 2014)

Thanks for responses Brendan and Commercial.  I was wondering if my experience was shared by others, ie as soon as a small problem arose ( much of which was due to Danske shutting current accounts and delays/ teething problems that occurred as a 'normal' consequent of having to make alternative arrangements) Danske escalate to next levels WITHOUT any contact other than rainstorms of letters- i.e. no attempt on their part to get things discussed.

Its like the in the old cowboy movies from years back, set in the old wild west where the crooked banker calls in a loan from the sharecropper, knowing he cant pay, so that he can sell on to the railroad company.


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## Brendan Burgess (30 Jun 2014)

Presumably these are all on investment properties and not home loans. This behaviour would not be allowed under the Mortgage Arrears Code.

Are they more aggressive on tracker mortgages than SVRs?

Although you are not protected by the Mortgage Arrears Code, these loans are still subject to the Consumer Protection Code and in particular, [broken link removed]

This applies to "“*personal consumer*” means a *consumer *who is a natural person acting outside his or her business, trade or profession;" . If you are a professional landlord with no other business, you are not a personal consumer. If you are a teacher with 5 buy to lets, you are a personal consumer.


*8.3* 
Where an account is in *arrears,* a *regulated entity* mustseek to agree an approach (whether with a *personal consumer* or through a third party nominated by the *personal consumer* in accordance with Provision 8.5) that will assist the *personal* *consumer* in resolving the *arrears*. 

*8.9* 
In respect of a mortgage, where a third full or partial repayment is  missed and remains outstanding and an alternative repayment arrangement  has not  been put in place, a *regulated entity* must notify the *personal* *consumer*, on paper on another *durable medium*, of the following:


the potential for legal proceedings and proceedings for  repossession of the property, together with an estimate of the costs to  the *personal* *consumer* of such proceedings;
the importance of seeking independent advice, for example from MABS; and
that, irrespective of how the property is repossessed and disposed of, the *personal* *consumer* will remain liable for the outstanding debt, including accrued interest, *charges*, legal, selling and other related costs, if this is the case.
*8.12* 
Where *arrears* arise on an account and where a *personal* *consumer *makes an offer of a revised repayment arrangement that is rejected by the *regulated entity*, the *regulated entity* must formally document its reasons for rejecting the offer and communicate these to the *personal* *consumer*, on paper or on another *durable medium*.


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## UnderClass (30 Jun 2014)

Not Home loans.


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## Butter (30 Jun 2014)

Are the mortgages tied to each other? If only one went into arrears how can they call the others in as well? This seems heavy-handed if there are no arrears on the other loans. I don't have much advice for you but based on my previous dealings with Danske bank you need to have everything in writing & do not rely on what people tell you on the phone. Keep all records & push them. I found them difficult to deal with & disingenuous even before they wanted to pull out of Ireland. Good luck!


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## UnderClass (1 Jul 2014)

Butter said:


> Are the mortgages tied to each other? If only one went into arrears how can they call the others in as well? This seems heavy-handed if there are no arrears on the other loans.


Don't all banks operate like this- i.e. they 'pool' accounts and take an overall view of all borrowings? They call in loan 1, and if it is not cleared this then allows them to declare default and trigger calling in loans 2,3,4 & 5 as well. If they are not allowed to do this, I'd love to see something in writing so that I could try to challenge them. However I'm not very hopeful about such a challenge as I could see huge costs arising with great uncertainty about getting anywhere.

People in my position simply dont have the wherewithal to match the Banks in legal challenges as they could mount a legal 'war of attrition' that would quickly wipe out the personal borrower through legal fees, and they know that unfortunately.


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## Brendan Burgess (1 Jul 2014)

If you complete a Case Study you might get some ideas

Information required for mortgage arrears and negative equity questions


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## UnderClass (2 Jul 2014)

Thanks for the invite to supply a detailed questionnaire Brendan.  Right now I'm more than a little bit paranoid about leaving an internet trail that could identify me to Danske.

My rationale for coming on here was to see if I was alone in how I am being dealt with, OR if there is a systemic approach being adopted.  I fell that the questions I have already raised, and my responses to them, while trying to help me resolve this problem, cannot be seen as simply self- serving.. I have stated a set of circumstance that others may equate with, and therefore find some succour in a group such as this one.   

Completion of a  detailed questionnaire that could identify me is of questionable value at this stage.

If my reticence is seen as intransigence, I apologize- that is not what I intend.  However, THE BANKS have powers and abilities to use/misuse corporate funds to pursue both appropriate and venal actions in (at best) equal measure, that are targeted on the weak and those unable to afford the outrageous costs of legal representation and argument.  The targets of their actions, i.e  WE THE PEOPLE, on the other hand would appear to have NO powers.

A forum such as this one, is all that I have.

Hence my username:  UnderClass.


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## serotoninsid (2 Jul 2014)

UnderClass said:


> People in my position simply dont have the wherewithal to match the Banks in legal challenges as they could mount a legal 'war of attrition' that would quickly wipe out the personal borrower through legal fees, and they know that unfortunately.


Take them on as a lay litigant.  I believe there is a group established that informally provides support to that end.  Can't recall the details of it off the top of my head right now.  By all accounts, there are numerous people representing themselves in property/loans/mortgage related cases right now.


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## UnderClass (2 Jul 2014)

serotoninsid said:


> Take them on as a lay litigant.  I believe there is a group established that informally provides support to that end.  Can't recall the details of it off the top of my head right now.  By all accounts, there are numerous people representing themselves in property/loans/mortgage related cases right now.



Thanks for that. And indeed, its hopeful that there are avenues for such self- representation in these greatly liberated and enlightened times. 

One hopes that the sentiments "That every man who is his own lawyer, has a fool for a client", highlighted by Henry Kett in 1814 as lazy thinking that would become simply accepted by Members of the Judiciary no longer applies in 2014.

Otherwise, my substantive points remain both undisturbed and non- addressed.


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## Butter (2 Jul 2014)

Perhaps I am naive but I cannot imagine in a court case that a judge would rule that five properties have to be sold under duress because one loan had three months of arrears on it. But I totally understand that the threat of that action means you have to look into your legal defence & that there are costs attached to that, unless you try to do it yourself as suggested. 

What do your mortgage contracts actually state about the tie-in between the different mortgages? Is there an explicit statement that if you hold more than one mortgage and one is in arrears that they can all be called in? Have you managed to clear the arrears on that one loan?

I took a case against NIB (as it was at the time) to the FO. At that time a few similar cases were also being brought against them. I know for a fact that at least one person in the bank then was reading the posts on AAM about those cases. I can only assume that others were too. Whether that is still the case now with depleted numbers working for the bank in Ireland - I don't know. 

I'm sorry I don't have better answers for you - the situation you're in sounds crazy & my previous experience with Danske was an eye-opener. I wish you the best of luck.


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## 44brendan (2 Jul 2014)

Many loan agreements include a "cross default clause". This means that if one loan goes into arrears the Bank can can in all other loans in the name of the same borrower. Check your loan documentation for such a clause. If its not there the Bank does not have a legal case to call in the other loans not in default!


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## Gerry Canning (2 Jul 2014)

Underclass; 
If what you state on your opening Thread is fact; it means Danske are out to get you in any event.

Strongly suggest fill out the detailed Questionnaire as per Brendan.You can tweek things a bit to make it hard to ID you; at this stage though, Danske have nuff for doing ,without trawling AAM , if they are looking in AAM ,we have their attention!
 It will not change Danskes methods should you be identified.
It appears Danske are being thuggish. 
What I  get from my viewing of AAM threads is some
1.Very good and genuine advice.
2. Some advice that goes off on a rant.
BUT ;
What I find on AAM is that the advice given, is generally of good quality.
It costs you nothing and can inform you of your options.


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## serotoninsid (2 Jul 2014)

UnderClass said:


> Thanks for that. And indeed, its hopeful that there are avenues for such self- representation in these greatly liberated and enlightened times. .


The sarcasm isn't lost on me.  If these were 'liberated and enlightened times', then there would be substantive resources made available by the state to lay litigants.



UnderClass said:


> One hopes that the sentiments "That every man who is his own lawyer, has a fool for a client", highlighted by Henry Kett in 1814 as lazy thinking that would become simply accepted by Members of the Judiciary no longer applies in 2014.


Fair enough but my view would be given the scenario you describe, what have you got to lose by trying.  As it stands, you are defeated.


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## Hailey1 (26 Jul 2014)

*http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=187881*

Yes I am happy to discuss with you


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## Fin Crusader (17 Dec 2014)

Underclass, check whether your investment properties were on the variable home loan rate or fixed home loan rate that then reverts to the variable home loan rate. If this is the case, you may have been overcharged by Danske Bank from February 2009 to November 2011.( see Brendan Burgess excellent detailed thread on the matter). If this is the case and the overcharged amount exceeds the loan arrears on the date the receiver was appointed over the property, you have a very strong case. You can either go to the F.S.O. or to the High Court. Even if the overcharged amount is not enough to cover the mortgage arrears but reduces the gap significantly you have a case. Best of luck. Root out those original Mortgage agreements. 

Do not forget! you have only till February 2015 to complain to the  Financial Services Ombudsman or institute legal proceedings.


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## Lone Star (7 Jan 2015)

Fin Crusader - that's an interesting point you made above regarding the reverting to home loan rate in (Changes made without permission in  2009) . I wonder if anyone here has any detail on cases where summary judgements were halted in their tracks using the fact of a 25 year interest only loan without provision for payment of capital was in place. This is cited in Patrick O'Riordan's CPD talk in 2013 (see below) - recent defences against bank claims - successes and failures as an item to check for in defending against a bank. My background:  Voluntary sale of an investment  property managed to the very end and presented to purchaser in pristine condition - and netting the bank an extra 30,000 had they brought in receivers cuts no mustard as they ruthlessly pursue a 120,000 judgement on someone they KNOW has no means to pay and a judgement is a waste of their money and the individual's mental and physical health  and a judgement on their ppr for 12 years. ( I did my best and spent 6 years living like a hermit to keep teh house paid for - until basicalli I couldnt keep going - bank staff were shocked at how i managed it and had kept payments up for so long without fail) hey ho that's life and I'm not giving up on this without a fight. Be very grateful for any info on the 'provision for reypayment of capital' as a defence. (have others lines of defence also - and not the wishy washy wooly ones  )  Thanks, Lone Star


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## Fin Crusader (8 Jan 2015)

Lone star, was your investment property mortgage on the variable home loan rate or the fixed home loan rate that then reverted to the variable home loan rate., also look a Donna and Robert Millar v Danske bank on the courts website. The judgment was issued on the 30/09/2014 by Judge a Hogan reference no 422/2014. What stage legally are you at ?


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## Lone Star (8 Jan 2015)

Filing a replying affidavit following a fight for a adjournment. Investment property was 'Variable Annuity and Endowment Rate'  - replaced in Feb 2009!! as a "Home Loan Rate"  (Will check all my figures today...however on first viewing - rates don'e seem to have been impacted upwards. but i was literally looking for these documents at 3 am after reading your posts on same. I'll take a look today at Millar V Danske - Thank you!!


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## Fin Crusader (8 Jan 2015)

That's good news, you most likely have been overcharged by Danske Bank from the period February 2009 to November 2011, what basically happened was that Danske Bank change the terms and conditions of your loan without your permission. They re designated home loans as investor loans. When the ECB subsequently cut interest rates, Danske bank passed on these reductions ( 3 separate .25% reductions totalling .75% ) to people who had a home loan as their principle private residence but not to investment loans. Check your original mortgage agreement on your investment loan, if it says home loan you have a case. State in your affadavit that Danske bank breached contract with you in this regard, as they failed in their performance of the contract.

IMPORTANT! ,Lone Star, don't forget you only have till February of 2015 to start legal proceeding against Danske bank for Breach of contract in relation to this overcharging. ( 6 years statute of limitations from February 2009 ). If you are not back in court before February 2015 you must lodge certain papers and get a reference number from the Central Office, Four Courts, so that your case in relation to this issue does not become statute barred. My advise to you is go to a solicitor immediately, he will know what to do. When these particular papers are lodged you have another 12 months before legal proceeding actual have to commence, however you have satisfied the statute of limitation by instigating legal proceedings by lodging these papers. Hope you understand.

In your affadavit don't forget to include that you believe the variable rate term in their mortgage clause is ambiguous. In November 2011, after losing a number of cases with the FSO about the change of name of home loan mortgages to investment mortgages, Danske bank drew a line in the sand and upped the rates between .2% and .95%, depending on what variable mortgage you had with them, so that once again the home loan rate would be the same as the investment rate. see courts.ie,judgments, issued on 30/09/2014,case no 422/2014.

Talk to me in conversation mode, so that I might advise you in private.


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## Lone Star (8 Jan 2015)

original contract / offer letter terms it as 'Investment Housing Loan'... Their letter in Feb 2009 refers to it as  'Variable Annuity and Endowment Rate' - replaced in Feb 2009!! and changing it to a "Home Loan Rate".


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## Fin Crusader (8 Jan 2015)

Have you got the mortgage agreement, not the offer letter, check the variable rate clause in it, if it says variable home loan rate you have a case. If you got the letter in February 2009 you have a case. Lone Star have you any of the original mortgage brochures that National Irish Bank or Danske issued prior to 2009 ? In these brochures the bank describes what a variable rate loan is. This will also strengthen your case with regard to collateral contracts.


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## Lone Star (8 Jan 2015)

It's one in the same from what I have on file. I'll double double check now. Trying to figure out how to talk in conversation mode...my 3 hrs sleep is catching up on me. I'll do this affidavit today/night if it kills me!


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## Lone Star (8 Jan 2015)

Fin Crusader said:


> Have you got the mortgage agreement, not the offer letter, check the variable rate clause in it, if it says variable home loan rate you have a case. If you got the letter in February 2009 you have a case. Lone Star have you any of the original mortgage brochures that National Irish Bank or Danske issued prior to 2009 ? In these brochures the bank describes what a variable rate loan is. This will also strengthen your case with regard to collateral contracts.



No don't have a mortgage Agreement on file. (My former Solicitor is gone - i can check their offices in case) Only have what is an offer letter with all the details integrated - which is all i ever seem to have had but kept on record. It does refer to variable home loan rate (as does most correspondence to date) and re the variable rate - A discount of ).24% for the duration of the loan on National Irish Bank's variable mortgage rate is cited under the schedule. 

Other than that, I'm pressing ahead with what i have. Would be interesting to see if I have any case against them..


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## Fin Crusader (8 Jan 2015)

Take your time with the Affadavit, it is important to encompass every law , code of practice,, statutory instrument, and code of conduct that you believe the bank have breached. When are you back up in court ?


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