# Ryanair proposed takeover of Aer Lingus



## Humpback (5 Oct 2006)

Not getting into the nitty gritty on this, but after reading this quote, I'm wondering if the Chairman of the Board of Aer Lingus actually really understands what it means to be floated on a stock exchange at all.

Speaking of the takeover approach by Ryanair, John Sharman, chairman of Aer Lingus group, said: 





> This approach is unsolicited, wholly opportunistic and significantly undervalues the group’s businesses and attractive long-term growth potential.


 
How can this be undervaluing the Aer Lingus business, when the government in it's wisdom valued the company at €2.20 per share. Ryanair have valued it at a 30% premium to that, which indicates that it was actually the government which undervalued Aer Lingus in the first place.


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## ninsaga (5 Oct 2006)

Lets just say that they did work through the unions, esot, trade commissions, etc & that Aer Lingus did sell to Ryanair for what ever price.... will it realy be the best thing for the Irish traveller/consumer? Without serious competition from a big player such as Aer Lingus.... who knows what stunts Ryanair might pull if they are the main player.

I don't think its the best thing for us. I would prefer to see Willie Walsh 7 co making a pitch for Aer Lingus.

ninsaga


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## Meccano (5 Oct 2006)

ninsaga said:


> Lets just say that they did work through the unions, esot, trade commissions, etc & that Aer Lingus did sell to Ryanair for what ever price.... will it realy be the best thing for the Irish traveller/consumer? Without serious competition from a big player such as Aer Lingus.... who knows what stunts Ryanair might pull if they are the main player.


 
Ryanair running a long-haul service out of Ireland? I doubt it.
Or, if it did happen, it'll be the same pile 'em high sell 'em cheap version they do on short haul.

Ok for back-packers and students, and no doubt a whole new class of 99cent air travellers would emerge. But if you don't fit into those categories - your only choice is to toddle off to London for your long haul flying.

And you won't be going to London on a cheapo Ryanair flight. One of his first moves will be to flog the LHR slots, probably recouping him a large chunk of his outlay in one stroke.
It'll be Stansted - and the M25.


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## smiley (5 Oct 2006)

totally hilarious...the chairman totally made a plonker out of himself...he and the government sold the airline at a price...now he says the airline is worth more than the price they floated at....

you must admit its great crack to stand back and watch this carry on...

the government now look like proper twits...

and what are what the hell are siptu on about? They also agrred to float the company..and now they want the government to but it back!!!!

its getting better by the hour!!

go on michael oleary!!


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## DrMoriarty (5 Oct 2006)

It guts me to say anything in praise of Michael O'Gecko, but this has me in stitches. What odds would _you_ have given, 15 short years ago..?  

He should be made President. Of Nigeria, or Sierra Leone, or somewhere...

(_After_ he becomes CEO of Ireland, Inc., naturally!)


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## ClubMan (5 Oct 2006)

Meccano said:


> But if you don't fit into those categories - your only choice is to toddle off to London for your long haul flying.


_Aer Lingus _are not the only long haul operator working out of _Dublin _- e.g. _AA, Continental, __Delta, US Airways _and _Aer Transat _to _North America_, for example.


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## Guest127 (5 Oct 2006)

aer lingus currently have 400,000 seats advertised on their website at bargain rates. the sale price advertises as flying up to 13th feby. one of the destinations ( one I would be interested in for a weekend break) is palma majorca. but when you dial in the dates it says that the flights to palma majorca stopped in october 2006.   bit like a butcher advertising cheap christmas toys?  to be fare    most of the other destinations appear to available


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## Meccano (5 Oct 2006)

Clubman, I guess so, as long as you feel confident in those US airlines long term unfailing commitment to providing DIRECT access to International routes ex-Ireland forever more, come hell or high water.

I don't.

You can also forget all those new routes East-Bound that Mr.Mannion was about to launch. Who'd be bothered now? No previous interest shown!

cuchulainn, there's a good chance Aer Lingus won't even exist next February! You're an optimistic chap to book that far in advance.
Micko will probably scrap a lot of the services as quick as he can.

Whoever advised 'de guvmint' about the flotation really DO have egg on their faces. I can understand Cullens and Bertie's desire for a succesful flotation - didn't want a repeat of Eircom - but it seems to me that too many people really believed all the negative hysteria about the company...you remember "Aer Lingus is useless - worthless - give it away....." etc etc and they fell over themselves to do exactly that. Give it away.

But the truth is out now - Micko is ready to punt 1 billion to get it. Thats the best vote of confidence the company ever had, and from a 'business genius' too. 
So I guess that shoots down the past detractors in flames. Too late unfortunately.

The tax payer has been shafted. The fat cats will get more cream. Irish tourism will suffer. Business will suffer. Punters will have no choice. Competition will dissapear. 
Grand job so.


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## ClubMan (5 Oct 2006)

Meccano said:


> Clubman, I guess so, as long as you feel confident in those US airlines long term unfailing commitment to providing DIRECT access to International routes ex-Ireland forever more, come hell or high water.


Do you expect *any *commercial company (including _Aer Lingus _- whether or not _Micko _gets his hands on it) to give such a guarantee?


> Micko will probably scrap a lot of the services as quick as he can.


Pure speculation.


> Whoever advised 'de guvmint' about the flotation really DO have egg on their faces. I can understand Cullens and Bertie's desire for a succesful flotation - didn't want a repeat of Eircom - but it seems to me that too many people really believed all the negative hysteria about the company...you remember "Aer Lingus is useless - worthless - give it away....." etc etc and they fell over themselves to do exactly that. Give it away.


Yeah - the Government should have forced us all into this one given the share price performance since _IPO_. What a rip off!


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## Meccano (5 Oct 2006)

ClubMan said:


> Do you expect *any *commercial company (including _Aer Lingus _- whether or not _Micko _gets his hands on it) to give such a guarantee?


Perhaps not, but I'd have trusted Aer Lingus (in the proper hands) to hang on to the very bitter end - as they did for years, even when everyone else was pulling out.
Wouldn't it be fun now if Ireland and the US were ever to have a little 'tiff', and the US Government were to apply some minor 'economic sanctions' on us? 
'Discouraging' US carriers from operating our transatlantic services for a while would be a quite effective method, no? 
Absence of STRATEGIC THINKING Clubman. 
Maybe you should stand for election. FF or PD?. 



> Pure speculation.


 So was the notion of Ryanair buying Aer Lingus 48 hours ago! 



> Yeah - the Government should have forced us all into this one given the share price performance since _IPO_. What a rip off!


They've proven they couldn't organise a p*** up in a brewery.


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## Guest127 (5 Oct 2006)

few  points: the price was obviously too low so howsabout the companies getting millions for the advice paying back the difference ie  so many shares @ 2.80 minus shares at 2.20 and the difference to be refunded to the government out of their fees. No chance of course.  if willie walsh had been given his head a few years ago and then a/l floated the share price would probaby have been nearer to €5 but bertie was too busy counting the interest he was saving on loans to bother about little things like that.
agree that michael probably will have little time for the dubai routes. shouldnt forget that a lot of the bigger state airlines now have a discounted airline to compete with ryanair so he might turn the tables on them and put a/l in to compete with them. wouldnt that be fun. and we shouldnt forget that ryanair dont compete with aer lingus on a good few routes but are still ok pricewise if you book early. gas if he used the heathrow slots for his bigger and newer boeing jets. wouldnt think airbus industries are too happy either as aer lingus appear to favour them over boeing. plenty of fun in the days ahead. wonder if paddy power are giving odds?


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## ClubMan (5 Oct 2006)

Meccano said:


> Wouldn't it be fun now if Ireland and the US were ever to have a little 'tiff', and the US Government were to apply some minor 'economic sanctions' on us?
> 'Discouraging' US carriers from operating our transatlantic services for a while would be a quite effective method, no?
> Absence of STRATEGIC THINKING Clubman.


Strategic thinking? Paranoid delusions more like...


> Maybe you should stand for election. FF or PD?.


Huh?! 


> They've proven they couldn't organise a p*** up in a brewery.


In case you didn't notice I was being facetious.


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## Meccano (6 Oct 2006)

Maybe YOU didn't notice so was I?
I'll try to emote more in future. 

Cuchullain, I really doubt if O'Leary would want to serve LHR. Honestly, all messing aside, its just a no-brainer that he'll avoid the hassle with delays that is part and parcel of ops in there. It just doesn't fit the Ryanair shorthaul model. 
And even more importantly, selling the LHR slots will recoup around 250 Million of his expenditure on the company - effectively buying him 25% at the 1 Billion euro capitalisation mark. No doubt he'll find ways to strip out a few more assetts, recouping the other 250M for the second 25% required to give him a majority stake. 
Effectively getting him the company FOR FREE.

I had to laugh at his comments this morning - he sat there with a straight face and said he'd not only keep Aer Lingus separate, but UPGRADE their long-haul business class product. What a joker!!

By the way, lest we forget, Ryanair have previously bought out a smaller competitor with promises of running them parrallel to the Ryanair mainline.
The companies name was 'Buzz'. Anyone remember it? 
O'Leary stripped what he wanted out of it, and wound it up within months. Another annoying competitor squashed and eliminated.
Watch this space.


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## CGorman (6 Oct 2006)

Meccano said:


> The tax payer has been shafted.



??? Whilst it's quite unclear whether Ryanair will succeed in a full takeover - if they did the gov. (e.g. the taxpayers) will get far in excess of €500m. How does that constitute being "shafted"? The figure would likely be much greater as any takeover is unlikely to be achieved at €2.80 a share - more like €3+.



Meccano said:


> You can also forget all those new routes East-Bound that Mr.Mannion was about to launch.



Well the plan is to run Aer Lingus as a seperate brand and indeed as a seperate company. I'd imagine most existing short haul flights would be brought under the Ryanair brand (with all it's cheap and cheerlessness to bout) whilst the Aer Lingus brand would be positioned as a pure long haul carrier (cheap and cheerless with a dash of humanity such as a glass of water or even a scone on flights lasting over 7hrs!!) To me this would be the logical method.

Rather than shy away from new long haul routes by Mr. Mannion, i'd expect Ryanair to pursue a far more aggressive expansion plan. At very least Aer Lingus would set up a long haul base outside Ireland within the coming years - use those Heathrow slots for non-ireland routes if that's allowed. Or even use an existing Ryanair airport such as Gironia or Frankfurt to split ground overheads.

Obviously all commentry is based upon a quite uncertain positive outcome in the takeover attempt. IMHO, I think the whole thing is a no brainer for O'Leary - if he wins that's perfect, if not then he can slowly sell off the 20% over the next year or so at a decent profit - Ryanair has bought in between €2.20 and €2.80 or so... probably an avg. price of €2.45 or so and even before the takeover attept the share price looked like it would hit well above that based purely on the firms own figures and potential. Also Ryanair has garnered yet more publicity...


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## CGorman (6 Oct 2006)

Meccano said:


> The companies name was 'Buzz'. Anyone remember it?
> O'Leary stripped what he wanted out of it, and wound it up within months. Another annoying competitor squashed and eliminated.



I don't think the two operations are comparable. Buzz was a very new, loss making, poorly run firm that did'nt own a single plane and was eventually sold for scarcely €20m. Buzz was always a financially sound deal on paper - it was a no brainer from that perspective.

By contrast Aer Lingus is a long established brand name with actual ownership of 39 aircraft operating 60 routes - with an initial takeover price of €1.5bn and thats more likely to be near €2bn if a deal is to happen. Also Aer Lingus is far better run today than Buzz ever was and it's actually a decent profit maker to bout. 

O'Leary is an "empire builder". He thrives on the thought of conquering aviation. He knows the Ryanair model is and will continue to work on cheap short haul - it's just a simple join up the dots game and as he said himself (AFAIK) "just try not to f**k it up".

Aer Lingus offers him the chance to conquer a completely new market. Mannion is an expert in long haul and it's quite obvious the Ryanair model would need significant tweaking to work in long haul. So IMHO, this is truely an attempt to create an empire - a strong Irish avation giant. You might think me mad, but I can see the day Ryanair are launching such routes as Beijing-Tokoyo, or Cape Town-Johannasburg!! Admitably the timescale is decades away and rests on the assumption that they dont "f**k up" before that - but I truely believe that's the sort of growth O'Leary believes Ryanair could eventually have.

It's worth nothing O'Leary intends to retire in 2008 - but that doe'snt mean Ryanair will just stop.


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## Meccano (6 Oct 2006)

CGorman said:


> ??? Whilst it's quite unclear whether Ryanair will succeed in a full takeover - if they did the gov. (e.g. the taxpayers) will get far in excess of €500m. How does that constitute being "shafted"? The figure would likely be much greater as any takeover is unlikely to be achieved at €2.80 a share - more like €3+.


De guvmint SOLD more than 50% of the companies shares at launch - for 2.20 euro. It appears O'Leary has bought 19% at an average of about 2.50 euro per share and is still buying at 2.80 per share. That means De guvmint has thrown away between 15% and 25% of the TRUE value they could have achieved. I read somewhere that O'Leary is expected to pay up to 3.20 per share to gain a controlling stake. 
The loss to taxpayers is therefore in the region of 150M to 350M euro.



> Well the plan is to run Aer Lingus as a seperate brand and indeed as a seperate company. I'd imagine most existing short haul flights would be brought under the Ryanair brand (with all it's cheap and cheerlessness to bout) whilst the Aer Lingus brand would be positioned as a pure long haul carrier (cheap and cheerless with a dash of humanity such as a glass of water or even a scone on flights lasting over 7hrs!!) To me this would be the logical method.
> 
> Rather than shy away from new long haul routes by Mr. Mannion, i'd expect Ryanair to pursue a far more aggressive expansion plan. At very least Aer Lingus would set up a long haul base outside Ireland within the coming years - use those Heathrow slots for non-ireland routes if that's allowed. Or even use an existing Ryanair airport such as Gironia or Frankfurt to split ground overheads.
> 
> Obviously all commentry is based upon a quite uncertain positive outcome in the takeover attempt. IMHO, I think the whole thing is a no brainer for O'Leary - if he wins that's perfect, if not then he can slowly sell off the 20% over the next year or so at a decent profit - Ryanair has bought in between €2.20 and €2.80 or so... probably an avg. price of €2.45 or so and even before the takeover attept the share price looked like it would hit well above that based purely on the firms own figures and potential. Also Ryanair has garnered yet more publicity...


To quote Clubman - This is PURE SPECULATION.
Tsk Tsk.

By the way Clubman, on the subject of 'paranoid delusions' did you know that the US government once (late 70's) blocked Boeing from selling spares to Aer Lingus because they had done business with Gaddafi's Libya in breach of a US trade embargo?
Betcha didn't know that, eh, eh!?


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## Purple (6 Oct 2006)

Meccano said:


> The loss to taxpayers is therefore in the region of 150M to 350M euro.


Think of all the E-Voting machines they could have bought for that!


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## Sunny (6 Oct 2006)

Meccano said:


> Cuchullain, I really doubt if O'Leary would want to serve LHR. Honestly, all messing aside, its just a no-brainer that he'll avoid the hassle with delays that is part and parcel of ops in there. It just doesn't fit the Ryanair shorthaul model.
> And even more importantly, selling the LHR slots will recoup around 250 Million of his expenditure on the company - effectively buying him 25% at the 1 Billion euro capitalisation mark.


 
Protection of the Heathrow slots is written into the company's articles of associaton. Realistically, if the government retain 25% of the company, the slots can't be sold without their permission. Why this is the case I don't know. Could never understand the hang up about getting access to that airport. There are other major hubs that are much easier to use when having to get connecting flights and if the demand is there for the DUB-LHR route, some airline will always provide it.


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## Humpback (6 Oct 2006)

It may be a possibility that Ryanair and Michael O'Leary are looking at the JetBlue model from the US and the possibility of applying it to Aer Lingus. Set up as a low cost carrier, but with a premium service.

This, to me, would make absolute sense. Short-haul Aer Lingus flights would be rebranded as Ryanair. Long-haul flights remain branded as Aer Lingus, working on a JetBlue model.

Not that Aer Lingus is too far away from the JetBlue model at this stage anyway.


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## Humpback (6 Oct 2006)

Sunny said:


> Protection of the Heathrow slots is written into the company's articles of associaton.


 
Did anyone hear our Transport Minister in the Dail yesterday saying that because the Articles of Association of Aer Lingus couldn't be changed, that there were protections in place?

Yet again a ridiculous pronouncement by a key player in this saga who hasn't a clue what they're talking about. If Michael O'Leary is up against Martin Cullen and John Sharman (from OP comments), then he's got absolutely nothing to worry about.


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## Humpback (6 Oct 2006)

Meccano said:


> And even more importantly, selling the LHR slots will recoup around 250 Million of his expenditure on the company -


 
Hasn't it been discussed here before that it's quite unlikely that slots in Heathrow are not actually a saleable commodity?


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## Sunny (6 Oct 2006)

ronan_d_john said:


> Did anyone hear our Transport Minister in the Dail yesterday saying that because the Articles of Association of Aer Lingus couldn't be changed, that there were protections in place?
> 
> Yet again a ridiculous pronouncement by a key player in this saga who hasn't a clue what they're talking about. If Michael O'Leary is up against Martin Cullen and John Sharman (from OP comments), then he's got absolutely nothing to worry about.


 

To be fair to Martin Cullen, anyone wishing to change the articles of association would need more than 75% of the vote, so as long as the government don't sell up, they still have a significant say in the company. Not saying it can't be done but it is not an easy thing to do. And to be fair, I don't think Ryanair give a damn about selling LHR slots (if they can be sold as you say).  They would be quiet happy to let Aer Lingus fly away into the place. It must be profitable considering the hoo ha over it!


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## AJC (6 Oct 2006)

Sunny said:


> Could never understand the hang up about getting access to that airport. There are other major hubs that are much easier to use when having to get connecting flights and if the demand is there for the DUB-LHR route, some airline will always provide it.


 
Very Dublin based mentality. Other than AerLingus there are no airlines flying ORK-LHR or SNN-LHR

And no one living anywhere near either airport would want to fly via Dublin


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## ashambles (6 Oct 2006)

On the news at one it said Ryanair are calling this Operation Bargepole .  Find the talk of a white knight a little surprising, the Gov aren't going to sell their ~30%, Ryanair probably have over 20% by now, so why would a white knight come in for the remaining 35%? 

I assume that the ESOT will prefer to let Ryanair become the majority shareholder than sell their shares in mass to any white knight and pay tax on it (as it would be over the 12700 a year limit for ESOTs)


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## MugsGame (6 Oct 2006)

Initially I'd assumed there was no way this buyout would pass the relevant competition authorities. However, Ryanair don't compete with Aer Lingus on long haul routes, so there may be a creative solution that would satisfy the regulators (e.g. a breakup of Aer Lingus!). 

Ryanair [broken link removed]: 





> Aer Lingus has little future on routes from Ireland to Europe.



Obviously the usual posturing from Ryanair, but if they really believe that, it suggests they are primarily interested in the long-haul routes, as speculated earlier in the thread.

Either way, it seems like a win win for O'Leary. If he gets Aer Lingus he gains a long-haul brand, gets immense bargaining power in Dublin airport, slots in LHR, and significantly weakens the unions in Irish aviation. If the deal falls through, dealing with the hostile takeover distracts the company management from growing the business and competing with Ryanair. 

It could all backfire though; there is a third possibility. Aer Lingus is now "in play". Is there another airline with cash on the balance sheet that would benefit from a long-haul brand, and would be more attractive to the unions and the regulators?


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## Eurofan (6 Oct 2006)

It would appear that O'Leary is deadly serious about this. Quite a good analysis today in the FT of the whole situation.

Had to laugh this afternoon though as i came across the Sunday Biz Post from the 24th Sept while tidying up. O'Leary is displayed on the Business section on the "last day before the Aer Lingus flotation" talking up the fact that he will expand dramatically from Dublin and go head to head to Aer Lingus (naturally helping to create some negative sentiment about the EI shares).

Most interesting though was his comments about going long-haul. He admited it didn't really fit in with the Ryanair model but that he was very interested in it and was "considering the possibility of a brother or sister airline run seperately from Ryanair to operate long-haul routes".


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## ubiquitous (6 Oct 2006)

MugsGame said:


> Initially I'd assumed there was no way this buyout would pass the relevant competition authorities. However, Ryanair don't compete with Aer Lingus on long haul routes, so there may be a creative solution that would satisfy the regulators (e.g. a breakup of Aer Lingus!).



Indeed. Another might be an order compelling Ryanair and/or Aer Lingus to sell or concede some of their existing routes to a competitor. A strategy along these lines was used in the UK to permit Morrison supermarkets to buy Safeway. One obvious candidate for any such deal might be Easyjet.


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## daltonr (6 Oct 2006)

> Minister Cullen also said that Ryanair had not dealt with the implications for the bilateral agreement between Ireland and the US. This requires that any airline designated by Ireland to provide transatlantic services must be majority owned and controlled by Irish nationals. 'There is a serious risk that the merged entity would not meet that requirement,' he said.


 

Hasn't the government put more than 50% of the airline on the open market. How can they control the situation from here to ensure that a majority of it remains in the hands of Irish Nationals?

Has the government jeopardised the bilateral agreements with the US? Or am I misunderstanding what Minister Cullen has said?

Anyone want to take odds on the Irish government buying Ryan Air's stake in the company at a nice profit for Ryan Air, and a nice loss for the Tax Payer?  And the government once again being the majority stake holder, defeating the whole point of the floatation.

-Rd


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## Eurofan (6 Oct 2006)

daltonr said:


> Anyone want to take odds on the Irish government buying Ryan Air's stake in the company



Precisely zero.

I reckon O'Leary is deadly serious about this whole thing and no matter how it plays out he will profit from it. Buying the shares back would be a complete farce. There's egg on the governments face at this stage and i see only one way for them to play this out and come up smelling of roses.

A 'White Knight' appears on the scene. With Mannions background i reckon there's rather frantic calls to Emirates this weekend (though from rumours i've heard they were interested anyway).

The government agrees to sell them their 28% in return for certain guarantees regarding the brand/staffing/heathrow slots etc. etc.

The esot recommends selling to Emirates too which in the face of working for O'Leary the staff overwhelmingly vote for.

With approx 40% of the airline Emirates can seek the remainder of the shares on the market, O'Leary offers to sell his stake (at a healthy profit) rather than enter a bidding war for the remaining shares.

Bertie et al can happily announce how they not only saved Aer Lingus from the evil Micko but have secured the brand/jobs/slots for the future and made and extra €500+ million for the country into the bargain.

Anything else and we won't see Bertie back in government next year.


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## daltonr (7 Oct 2006)

If Martin Cullen is right (I know a stretch, but stay with me).... If Martin Cullen is correct, then your Emirates plan can't work, because the majority of the company must stay in Irish hands, or the agreement between Ireland and the US is breached.

The only way I can see the majority being guarenteed to stay in Irish hands is if it is owned by the government.

Why the hell did they sell more than half if they knew about this treaty?

-Rd


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## dats_right (7 Oct 2006)

Good thread. Martin Cullen strikes again! How is the man allowed to constantly get away with costing the Irish tax payer so much money? The man has the opposite of the midas touch. If he was employed in any industry the closest he would get to the boardroom would be to clean it! The man has no brains. There is something seriously wrong with this country when he is sitting at the cabinet table. 

This Government has time and time again shown its contempt for the Irish people and has increasingly behaved with shocking arrogance. This fiasco involving the 'give-away' of a very valuable state asset i.e. Aer Lingus is just another in the long list of government blunders.


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## CGorman (7 Oct 2006)

Todays Irish Independent claims a few big international Funds (Eton Park among them) have now built up a 25% stake in the firm.

Doing the simply maths:

Ryanair: 20%
Funds: 25%
Gov: 28.3%
ESOT: 9.6%
Others: 17.1%

So Ryanair needs another 30% to hit a majority. The investment funds and other private investors are solely motivated by profit (unlike unions/gov.) and currently hold approx. 42.1%. Basically it looks very possible that O'Leary could aquire the 50+% he needs.

So a deal that looked almost absurd, if not shocking a few days ago could well occur quite soon.


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## Meccano (7 Oct 2006)

To all of you who are betting the Government will block O'Leary by refusing to sell their 28% remaining share-holding - read this: FT.com


> "The Dutch government said on Thursday that it would accelerate discussions with _(cargo airline)_ *TNT* to cancel the “golden share” it holds in the mail and express company, following a ruling by the *European Court of Justice* that the construction was *unlawful*.
> The court said the mechanism, which had *given the state a veto on mergers and takeovers, “restricted the free movement of capital”.*
> _Published: September 28 2006_


Oh dear oh dear....this looks to me like Ducksy O'Leary will appeal to the EU Court of Justice to force de guvmint to sell up! Game over!

Emirates was always tipped to be the future owner of Aer Lingus - among a certain group 'in the know' anyhow. 
I reckon that was the reason the whole project was pushed out with such indecent haste in the end, and why Mannion was appointed to do it (ex Emirates guy). 
But I guess Emirates were going to take a 'softly softly' approach - so as not to scare the public, de guvmint, or de workers when they made a pass. 
Nobody expected O'Leary to come kick the door down before the gentle-folk at Emirates had even put their hand up!

As Eurofan has said, I wouldn't be at all surprised if someone from de guvmint and Aer Lingus isn't crying down the phone at this very moment to Sheik Maktoum, BEGGING for help.

Its hilarious now though, listening to all and sundry boo-hooing about the loss of 'wonderful' Aer Lingus, when it has heretofore been everyones favourite whipping boy. The same 'meeja' hacks who queued up to berate it as a dud are now wistfully praising it as 'an Internationally recognised Global Brand and a symbol of Irish excellence in the aviation business'....puke.

Sic Transit Gloria Mundi.

FF are DEAD in North County Dublin.

PS. 'like JetBlue' - eh?? 
They don't do international long-haul! Maybe thats your point!?

PPS. Slots - 'why is Dublin - London so important?' 
Possibly because its Europes busiest air route, and is arguably THE WORLDS busiest air route ! 
Since a large number of the punters on the Dublin - London route currently choose LHR, it'll be a pity for them when the slots are either (a) Sold, or _way less likely_ (b) used to set up some kind of Long-Haul cheapo service ex LHR by Ducksy.

Like I said earlier - the Ireland (DUB, SNN and CRK) to LHR punters will soon be getting more familiar with Stansted and the M25 car park.


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## rabbit (8 Oct 2006)

Well done and best of luck to all at Ryanair.   We were all held hostage by the inefficient, overpaid and underworked people at Aer Lingus for so long in the 70's and 80's etc.


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## ninsaga (8 Oct 2006)

rabbit said:


> We were all held hostage by the inefficient, overpaid and underworked people at Aer Lingus for so long in the 70's and 80's etc.



......... do you still therefore believe this to be the case in 2006?


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## rabbit (8 Oct 2006)

ninsaga said:


> ......... do you still therefore believe this to be the case in 2006?


 
No, they are not as inefficient, overpaid and underworked as they were decades ago, thanks to the competition from Ryanair etc and the management of Willie Walsh etc. Remember the days 25 years ago when we paid £££ to fly to London, when money was money ( a reasonable house was £ 15,000 ) ?

In my opinion, Aer Lingus are caught between being a dynamic, efficient low cost operator like Ryanair and being a friendly, premium airline. Comparing the last few times I flew with each, the Ryanair staff were nicer / fliendlier, and the Ryanair flights were more punctual.

You have to hand it to O'Leary and his team.  A great Irish success story.    They are still expanding their number of hubs abroad etc.


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## Meccano (8 Oct 2006)

rabbit said:


> No, they are not as inefficient, overpaid and underworked as they were decades ago, thanks to the competition from Ryanair etc and the management of Willie Walsh etc. Remember the days 25 years ago when we paid £££ to fly to London, when money was money ( a reasonable house was £ 15,000 ) ?
> 
> In my opinion, Aer Lingus are caught between being a dynamic, efficient low cost operator like Ryanair and being a friendly, premium airline. Comparing the last few times I flew with each, the Ryanair staff were nicer / fliendlier, and the Ryanair flights were more punctual.
> 
> You have to hand it to O'Leary and his team. A great Irish success story. They are still expanding their number of hubs abroad etc.


 
I heard a statistic just recently, that the Dublin based Ryanair Cabin Crew have a total of 11 Irish people in their number. The rest are foreign - mainly East Europeans.
While I have no grudge against the foreign workforce you have to ask - where are the Irish? Why have they all left? Do I really need to answer that question for you?
Not that it matters much to anyone getting a cheap ticket I guess - just an observation.

I'm sure those E.European crews are VERY friendly. No doubt they're ecstatic just to have a job in The Rich West.

The young lady who died on a recent Ryanair flight probably found the cabin crew VERY friendly too - right up to the point when she collapsed and they neglected to provide the doctor (who happened to be a passenger on board) with the equipment she needed for her recussitation efforts. Apparently they didn't know it was even there.


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## rabbit (9 Oct 2006)

You or I do not know the full facts of what happened to the lady who died on the flight, so are unable to comment on it.   The Ryanair staff are well paid , and even if they were paid 142,000 per annum like the ESB workers at Ringsend the poor lady would still have died.

I very much doubt the statistic you "heard" is true anyway, that there are only 11 Irish Ryanair cabin crew.   I have flown with them quite a bit, but then maybe  all the foreigners  working for Ryanair put on Irish accents ? lol


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## rabbit (9 Oct 2006)

ninsaga said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit* [broken link removed]
> _We were all held hostage by the inefficient, overpaid and underworked people at Aer Lingus for so long in the 70's and 80's etc._
> 
> ...


 
Saw an interesting statistic in the paper today. Ryanair has 3 times more planes than Air Lingus, carries four times more passengers than Air Lingus, but yet Air Lingus has 13% more staff than Ryanair. 

OK, I know there are complicating factors eg some Air Lingus flights are long haul etc etc but still ....

A friend travelled Ryanair to England some years ago, and who happened to be the person who checked his boarding card / ticket at the time ? Michael O'Leary himself, who when he had helped check the passengers on to the plane got on it himself to travel to England, and who sat a few seats back.   Great company, great leader.


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## MugsGame (9 Oct 2006)

> yet Air Lingus has 13% more staff than Ryanair.


Meaningless comparison -- Ryanair outsource all of the ground-crew functions.


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## ubiquitous (9 Oct 2006)

Meccano said:


> Pay peanuts - get monkeys.



I don't think its very smart, or appropriate, to use this analogy to describe immigrant workers, especially in the context of patronising comments such as: 



Meccano said:


> I'm sure those E.European crews are VERY friendly. No doubt they're ecstatic just to have a job in The Rich West.


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## Meccano (9 Oct 2006)

rabbit said:


> You or I do not know the full facts of what happened to the lady who died on the flight, so are unable to comment on it.


The issue is not what the unfortunate lady died off - which indeed we can't say - but rather a question of what equipment was on board that may have helped save her life, or at least assisted the nurses on board in their recussitation efforts. This we can *indeed* comment on. Airlines are required to carry certain items on board in their First Aid Kits, which the nurses requested, yet the Ryanair cabin crew did not provide.
When this was queried after the event Ryanair commented as follows:



> Ryanair said all of its aircraft were stocked with two security-sealed first-aid kits, as required under the regulations. A spokeswoman said the first-aid kits on the Treviso-Dublin flight did contain four sets of latex gloves and two masks *but she could not explain why the two nurses had not been provided with them.* Irish Independent, 26-09-06


 
There are three possibilities: either the equipment wasn't on board - in which case Ryanair was breaking the law and was grossly negligent, or their cabin crew didn't know how to find such a basic piece of emergency equipment, or maybe they just didn't understand the request to provide it?

Institutional negligence? Poor training? Language difficulties? Well, at least they're friendly and ...er...helpful.......



> The Ryanair staff are well paid ......


Evidence please.....
Perhaps the absence of Irish crew from the Dublin base gives a hint on their pay and conditions?



> I very much doubt the statistic you "heard" is true anyway, that there are only 11 Irish Ryanair cabin crew.


I said *DUBLIN BASED RYANAIR CREW* - just for your clarification. You are free to doubt it, just as I am free to doubt you. Its a free country - O'Leary isn't in charge yet.



> Originally Posted by *Ubiquitous*
> I don't think its very smart, or appropriate, to use this analogy to describe immigrant workers, especially in the context of patronising comments


Point taken. No offence meant because it refers to ALL employees, not just 'immigrants' as you've taken it. 
But anyhow, I'll remove it to prevent further misinterpretation.
I guess that means you should do the same if you're really offended.


----------



## Sunny (9 Oct 2006)

But didn't the doctor who treated that poor woman come out and say that he was giving out about the entire airline industry who don't carry the suitable equipment on short haul flights. As far as I can remember he actually praised Ryanair cabin crew and also the pilots for diverting the aircraft and getting them on the ground so quickly.

There are plenty of other things that can be used to beat Michael O Leary and Ryanair about the heads with and I will gladly join you but I don't think using this poor womans tragedy to place some blame on Ryanair cabin crew or Ryanair is appropriate.


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## Meccano (9 Oct 2006)

Sunny said:


> But didn't the doctor who treated that poor woman come out and say that he was giving out about the entire airline industry who don't carry the suitable equipment on short haul flights.


Have you got a link to that comment? 
If the quote is true (after we see the link) I'd have to say the -nurse/doctor - is in fact wrong, since, as Ryanair themselves said, the recussitation equipment is ALREADY meant to be on board all aircraft! 



> As far as I can remember he actually praised Ryanair cabin crew and also the pilots for diverting the aircraft and getting them on the ground so quickly.


Well, the pilots certainly did a good job. As usual.



> There are plenty of other things that can be used to beat Michael O Leary and Ryanair about the heads with and I will gladly join you but I don't think using this poor womans tragedy to place some blame on Ryanair cabin crew or Ryanair is appropriate.


I'm certainly not "using it to beat Michael O Leary and Ryanair about the heads" - perish the thought!
I'm using it to beat Rabbit about the head! _Just kidding._

That report is in the public domain. Rabbit said _(rather patronisingly actually)_ that he found Ryanair cabin crew to be 'friendly'. My point is there's more to the job of CCM than just being 'friendly' and this unfortunate event proves it.

Anyhow, this is indeed rather a side track, so why not drop it?


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## Meccano (9 Oct 2006)

My Oh My - it just got FAR more interesting!

The Ryanair pilots have now lodged a PAY CLAIM with the LRC, looking for PARITY with their new colleagues in Aer Lingus! 
Hah! Ducksie will be apopleptic at this - and I'm sure his Ryanair Shareholders (the BIG ONES) will now be asking him just WTF he's up to.

Just hilarious stuff.
Read it and weep....RTE News Flash


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## rabbit (10 Oct 2006)

MugsGame said:


> Meaningless comparison -- Ryanair outsource all of the ground-crew functions.


Fact is, Ryanair has 3 times more planes than Air Lingus, carries four times more passengers than Air Lingus, but yet Air Lingus has 13% more staff than Ryanair.


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## rabbit (10 Oct 2006)

Meccano said:


> My Oh My - it just got FAR more interesting!
> 
> The Ryanair pilots have now lodged a PAY CLAIM with the LRC, looking for PARITY with their new colleagues in Aer Lingus!
> Hah! Ducksie will be apopleptic at this - and I'm sure his Ryanair Shareholders (the BIG ONES) will now be asking him just WTF he's up to.
> ...


 
'Ryanair pilots would have to take a pay cut to align themselves with their equivalent opposite numbers in Aer Lingus,' a statement from the airline said.

If only RTE was as efficient as Ryanair, instead of gobbling up taxpayers / licence payers money as well as enjoying a near monopoly, just like Air Lingus in the bad old days.


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## Meccano (10 Oct 2006)

> Fact is, Ryanair has 3 times more planes than Air Lingus, carries four times more passengers than Air Lingus, but yet Air Lingus has 13% more staff than Ryanair.


Rabbit, you're forgetting to count the thousands of contract slaves - sorry, workers - that Ryanair needs to keep the show on the road.

The unionised workforce was the reason everyone believed O'Leary wouldn't touch ALT with a bargepole. 
Hence the shock and awe when he did. 
But now the back lash is happening.

Perhaps Aer Lingus will become Ryanairs Poison Pill.

Can't wait to see what happens when the Ryanair pilots join IALPA to form a pilots 'Super Union' in the states new Private Monopoly Carrier!!

In the past O'Liary could play the two off against each other - keep HIS jets flying if the Aer Lingus unions were to threaten strike.
Now what happens WHEN THEY ARE ALL ON STRIKE TOGETHER?
The country grinds to a halt! 
DOHHHHHHHHHH!!!!


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## Purple (10 Oct 2006)

Meccano said:


> Now what happens WHEN THEY ARE ALL ON STRIKE TOGETHER?
> The country grinds to a halt!
> DOHHHHHHHHHH!!!!


Why would the country grind to a halt?
I fly about 50 times a year. About 40 of those flights are not with Aer Lingus or Ryanair. 
Personally I avoid using Ryanair whenever I can as I try to fly in and out of where ever I am going on the same day and the cattle car type waiting areas in Ryanair dominated airports are a big turn off. That said I see no reason why Ryanair should not be allowed to buy Aer Lingus. They both compete with other airlines and do not compete with each other on many routes.


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## Meccano (10 Oct 2006)

Purple said:


> Why would the country grind to a halt?
> I fly about 50 times a year. About 40 of those flights are not with Aer Lingus or Ryanair.


Tell us where you fly, and who with. Are you talking about European destinations, UK in particular?

I can guarentee you that as soon as Ryanair controls Aer Lingus they will start a war of attrition, starting with all Europe/UK competition into Dublin, with the aim of turning it (and later Cork and Shannon) into an exclusively RyanairLingus dominated base. 

Transatlantic routes will follow within weeks. The only competitioin he has there are lame duck legacy US carriers.

It's the very ESSENCE of the Ryanair model to *COMPETE AGGRESSIVELY *to drive out competitors. Its the nature of the beast.

Of course it'll be dressed up in the usual garbage about 'great deals for the consumer' (perhaps so, in the short term) 'we're promoting competition' etc.
But their eventual complete domination of Irelands air routes will be very very BAD for consumers, and competition in the long term.

Yes, yes, I know you'll say it won't happen - he's such a great guy, we can _trust_ him - but the history of O'Learys behaviour has ALWAYS been to attack and eliminate ALL competition. Buzz, easyjet, GO, and lately Alitalia - all have been driven out of Dublin by Ryanair - or swallowed up and dismantled.

Ryanairlingus will have 70% to 80% of traffic into London from day one. 
After a year - it'll be 99.9% on that specific route. No question.
Then the squeeze really comes on - government and consumers held to ransom by a private monopoly.
Do you think O'Leary will continue to allow 'de guvmint' to dictate to him when he has the countries only air transport links in his hands? 

In that future monopolistic scenario the country is LITERALLY at the mercy of O'Leary - or even his unions in a strike scenario.



> Personally I avoid using Ryanair whenever I can as I try to fly in and out of where ever I am going on the same day and the cattle car type waiting areas in Ryanair dominated airports are a big turn off. That said I see no reason why Ryanair should not be allowed to buy Aer Lingus. They both compete with other airlines and do not compete with each other on many routes.


Well if the above scenario doesn't even vaguely worry you - party on.

At the moment, if you have a ticket dispute with Ryanair and O'Leary tells you to 'feck off' - you CAN!
What will you do when there's NO ONE ELSE to 'feck off' to? Swim?


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## Glenbhoy (10 Oct 2006)

Meccano said:


> Buzz, easyjet, GO, and lately Alitalia - all have been driven out of Dublin by Ryanair - or swallowed up and dismantled.


Do alitalia not fly into Dublin anymore?  Shame, they were normally much cheaper than aer lingus too.


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## Meccano (10 Oct 2006)

Yep, they're gone.
And an interesting point derives from your assertion about them being cheaper than Aer Lingus.
If thats true - they should've been full all the time, eh? And making LOADSAMONEY!

What went wrong?

[broken link removed]


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## Glenbhoy (10 Oct 2006)

Meccano said:


> Yep, they're gone.
> And an interesting point derives from your assertion about them being cheaper than Aer Lingus.
> If thats true - they should've been full all the time, eh? And making LOADSAMONEY!
> 
> ...


I found them cheaper in general, as i also find iberia cheaper when flying to madrid (pre-ryanair starting up soon).  That doesn't mean that it's always the case, nor does it mean that flights are always full.  I have flown with both aer lingus and al italia back and forward from Italy many times on half full flights, and often wondered why there was a need for so many flights, ah well, one less half full unprofitable flight can only be good for the environment eh?


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## Purple (10 Oct 2006)

> It's the very ESSENCE of the Ryanair model to COMPETE AGGRESSIVELY to drive out competitors. Its the nature of the beast.


 anyone in business who doesn't want to put their competition out of business is going to fail.


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## ludermor (11 Oct 2006)

I always find when people type in *bold *or CAPITALS it really gets their point accross.


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## Guest127 (11 Oct 2006)

heads Mick wins/ tails Mick wins. The pilots could lose big time if he decided to dump his shares and the price plummets. unlikely. but from his point of view: pilots have 2%, union 12-15% government ( you and me, by the way ) have 25%. so effectively no other airline can take a controlling interest. and as a major shareholder if they profits dip.... and divies are not up to scratch.... he can cause a rumpus at the agm and ask why the airline is overstaffed and under worked ( his opion as a shareholder, naturally) and what are the board going to do about it? great craic altogether. and he hardly had to lift a finger for the government and a/l walked strainght into it blindly. Gas.


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## rabbit (12 Oct 2006)

Meccano said:


> Now what happens WHEN THEY ARE ALL ON STRIKE TOGETHER?
> The country grinds to a halt!
> DOHHHHHHHHHH!!!!


 
A good argument for not having unions at all there.   What happens when the ESB goes on strike ( like a decade or 2 ago ) ?  The country grinds to a halt!   What happens when ESB do not go on strike ( like nowadays ) ?   The ESB workers are still  massively overpaid by you and me, Joe citizen, because they blackmailed the state, and the weak Irish govt gave in.  Thank God O'Leary should be able to stand up to the unions.   If an airline ever went on strike, govts should make it easy for any other airlines with spare capacity to fly the routes immediately, so the country does not grind to a halt.


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## Meccano (12 Oct 2006)

rabbit said:


> A good argument for not having unions at all there.


Good arguments aside - how do you plan to get rid of them?



> Thank God O'Leary should be able to stand up to the unions.


He doesn't have any unions - but he's about to acquire some. I predict a steep learning curve for all sides!



> If an airline ever went on strike, govts should make it easy for any other airlines with spare capacity to fly the routes immediately, so the country does not grind to a halt.


Competing airlines are always free to make such moves - no encouragement necessary beyond the fact of an 'open field'.
However, maybe you haven't noticed it - but there's an aviation boom on at the moment. Nobody has dozens (hundreds?) of spare aircraft sitting around doing nothing but hoping for strikes to provide some work.

Any more bright ideas?


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## ClubMan (12 Oct 2006)

Meccano said:


> However, maybe you haven't noticed it - but there's an aviation boom on at the moment. Nobody has dozens (hundreds?) of spare aircraft sitting around doing nothing but hoping for strikes to provide some work.


Don't know about dozens or hundreds but there is presumably some spare capacity? For example, I went on a package recently served by charter airline _eirjet _and because they could not fill the slots with their own planes/crews we actually went out with _Slovakia Air _and back with _Icelandic Air_.


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## Meccano (12 Oct 2006)

ClubMan said:


> Don't know about dozens or hundreds but there is presumably some spare capacity? For example, I went on a package recently served by charter airline _eirjet _and because they could not fill the slots with their own planes/crews we actually went out with _Slovakia Air _and back with _Icelandic Air_.


What does _'couldn't fill the slots with their own planes'_ mean exactly?

If they hired-in it was probably because eirjets own a/c was unserviceable for tech reasons, or they had crewing shortages.

If it was a 'package holiday' with eirjet then it was a chartered aircraft, and the airline was contracted with the tour operator to provide the service. 

Have you any idea how much it costs airlines to hire in like that? 
It's EXPENSIVE. 
VERY EXPENSIVE! 

The fact that two different hire-in operators were used just shows how difficult it is to locate spare capacity these days. 
Which is why it is so expensive.

But, in your case eirjet HAD to do it - contractual commitment! Do it, or get sued...and never get another charter booking from the tour operator.

What makes you think it'll happen when NOBODY has any legal responsibility to provide a flight?

If some airline does the passengers 'a favour' by running a few flights - if they can squeeze some out of their own schedule - be prepared to get royally screwed (hire-in rates) by the airline, and be prepared to FIGHT for the 'privilege' of buying a seat.


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## Sunny (12 Oct 2006)

As mentioned above, will people stop writing in capitals to get their point across. It's VERY annoying when trying to read


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## AJC (12 Oct 2006)

ClubMan said:


> Don't know about dozens or hundreds but there is presumably some spare capacity? For example, I went on a package recently served by charter airline _eirjet _and because they could not fill the slots with their own planes/crews we actually went out with _Slovakia Air _and back with _Icelandic Air_.


 

Currently speednews.com lists 533 passenger aircraft available to lease...


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## Guest127 (13 Oct 2006)

asaik eirjet used iclandic air a fair few times over the summer on flights back from crete/rhodes. didnt sound like a last miniute arrangement to me when I heard it.


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## ClubMan (13 Oct 2006)

It was in our case. The original eirjet plane/crew got stuck in _Verona_ and wasn't available for the _Faro-Dublin _route.


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## Meccano (13 Oct 2006)

AJC said:


> Currently speednews.com lists 533 passenger aircraft available to lease...


 
Speednews? Never heard of them - but hey, lets take a look.
US based company. 
Looks like majority of the aircraft operators on the site are US based! Surprise!
Then there are the African carriers. Love them!
And the Asian carriers - all these guys are of course available at the drop of a hat.......not!

Their website search function is crap. Select 'all' in every category except the type of transaction you require - Lease being the appropriate one - yet it still throws up aircraft For Sale etc.

Best of all - the most common commercial type flying around europe is the Boeing 737. Select Boeing 737 from the drop down list, and -800 from the 'type' list (same aircraft Ryanair currently operates).
Result - 4 aircraft available! That'll make a big dent in Ryanairs shortfall, eh!

Looking through the names of the operators on that site its patently obvious that this is a 'fishing' site. A shop window for putative lessors. 
Just because an aircraft is listed, that don't mean its available.

By the way - my car is for lease. I'm asking 10 grand per hour, without a driver, 15 grand per hour with 'crew'. And I can only let you have it for 3 hours tomorrow morning because I have to take me granny to the doctor in the afternoon.
No cheques accepted.


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## daltonr (13 Oct 2006)

> By the way - my car is for lease. I'm asking 10 grand per hour, without a driver, 15 grand per hour with 'crew'. And I can only let you have it for 3 hours tomorrow morning because I have to take me granny to the doctor in the afternoon.  No cheques accepted.



Tut Tut.
Attempting to screw a profit out of your fellow man like that.   And to be in such an environmentally unfriendly business as car hire,  I don't know what to think.
http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showpost.php?p=295408&postcount=58

-Rd


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## Meccano (13 Oct 2006)

You lookin' or buyin' mister?


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## Guest127 (13 Oct 2006)

CM: Makes sense in a roundabout way. If they had an agreement with iclandic air for cyprus/rhodes and they had a problem elsewhere it would make sense to approach them first to see if they could dig them out.


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## rabbit (14 Oct 2006)

Meccano said:


> By the way - my car is for lease. I'm asking 10 grand per hour, without a driver, 15 grand per hour with 'crew'. And I can only let you have it for 3 hours tomorrow morning because I have to take me granny to the doctor in the afternoon.
> No cheques accepted.


 
Deal.    Sounds good value, do you take visa ?


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## Meccano (18 Oct 2006)

rabbit said:


> Deal. Sounds good value, do you take visa ?


Cash only thanks.
Incidentally, would you be interested in a bridge I have for sale in London?

I hear Denis O'Brien has splashed out on 2.1% of the shares in Aer Lingus. Apparently says he supports the pilots bid to block O'Learys takeover.
Anyone remember those adverts a few months back where O'Leary taunted O'Brien as a tax evader? 
Payback is sweet.

Ducksy will be spitting nails. Teach him to keep his big mouth shut - or stick to insulting those who can't kick back - like poor ould Bertie.


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## Purple (18 Oct 2006)

Mr O'Brien has such a good record as a patriotic Irishman I'm sure he's not in it for himself. Or maybe the hot weather in Portugal has made him light headed


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## daltonr (18 Oct 2006)

> Anyone remember those adverts a few months back where O'Leary taunted O'Brien as a tax evader?
> Payback is sweet.


 
I have an image of O'Leary, O' Brian, The Government and a various Unions all huddled over a giant Monopoly board.

The government keeps getting it's ass kicked selling off cards when it doesn't need to, and then regretting it afterwards.   Everybody knows when you have all the cards in a set you shouldn't sell them unless you're broke.

Next to go will be the Electric Company.
Far too few people going directly to Jail in this game though.
They must be using loaded dice.

-Rd


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## Purple (18 Oct 2006)

daltonr said:


> I have an image of O'Leary, O' Brian, The Government and a various Unions all huddled over a giant Monopoly board.
> 
> The government keeps getting it's ass kicked selling off cards when it doesn't need to, and then regretting it afterwards.   Everybody knows when you have all the cards in a set you shouldn't sell them unless you're broke.
> 
> ...



Denis is playing on a different board and the unions are playing out of the same pot as the government...


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## Guest127 (18 Oct 2006)

and holding the winning cards: Michael O'Leary! average purchase price around €2.50. for his 19.2%. no other airline can get a controlling share - winner, if a/l performs well and share price goes up -winner , if share price plummets steps in and purchases more shares at lower price -win again,  and if board thinks they can have a nice easy agm, hey this is fun  he must be thinking.  old saying , keep your friends close and  your enemy closer. and he has managed that. and he couldn't buy this publicity.


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## Meccano (18 Oct 2006)

Yes, who knows what motivates Denis - but Payback could well be one of those motivations.

Sorry cuchulain, but Ducksy is beginning to look like he's on an outside bet now.

Government - 25%
ESOT - 15%
Pilots Pension Scheme - 2.4%
Denis - 2.1%

Total = 44.5%

By my reckoning that leaves the pilots to collect just 5.5% and Ducksy to find another 30%. It could get very interesting - but my guess now is O'Bleary will see the numbers going against him and do a rapid sell-off in the hope of creating maximum damage to both Aer Lingus and its share-holders. 
At that point we'll see O'Liary's performance boils down to nothing more than corporate vandalism and sabotage.


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## Guest127 (18 Oct 2006)

but if he does sell off at say 2.50 how much will the pilots pension fund have lost? and who will buy?


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## Meccano (18 Oct 2006)

cuchulainn said:


> but if he does sell off at say 2.50 how much will the pilots pension fund have lost? and who will buy?


Well if I was an Aer Lingus pilot or pension fund trustee I'd probably ask you - how much would the fund lose if O'Liary gets his mits on it?
Hint - more than a few million here or there.

Who will buy? If he can't find buyers then he can't sell, eh?

The irony is that if Ducksys move had been made by almost any other company or individual there would have been far less reaction. The guy is so loathsome he ultimately militates against himself. He has become self-defeating. Maybe Micko will finally be seen as the liability he has really become.


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## Guest127 (18 Oct 2006)

thought pensions funds were ring fenced again companies raiding them?


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## rabbit (18 Oct 2006)

Meccano said:


> The guy is so loathsome he ultimately militates against himself. He has become self-defeating. Maybe Micko will finally be seen as the liability he has really become.


 
lol He is far from loathsome or a liability. He heads one of Irelands most successful companies, one which was built from nothing in the dark days of the eighties. Remember when a seat cost £ 200 to London with Aer Fungus ? And that was when £ 200 was £ 200, and some houses were £ 10,000 to 20,000 in the country ?

Fact is, Ryanair has 3 times more planes than Air Lingus, carries four times more passengers than Air Lingus, but yet Air Lingus has 13% more staff than Ryanair. Who is creating airline hubs on the continent ? Good old Mick O'Leary and Ryanair. Go on Mick, show the continentals what us Irish can do. A real success story. And a decent man to boot , judging by comments from his friends and neighbours.


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## Purple (19 Oct 2006)

rabbit said:


> lol He is far from loathsome or a liability. He heads one of Irelands most successful companies, one which was built from nothing in the dark days of the eighties. Remember when a seat cost £ 200 to London with Aer Fungus ? And that was when £ 200 was £ 200, and some houses were £ 10,000 to 20,000 in the country ?
> 
> Fact is, Ryanair has 3 times more planes than Air Lingus, carries four times more passengers than Air Lingus, but yet Air Lingus has 13% more staff than Ryanair. Who is creating airline hubs on the continent ? Good old Mick O'Leary and Ryanair. Go on Mick, show the continentals what us Irish can do. A real success story. And a decent man to boot , judging by comments from his friends and neighbours.


and he lives in Ireland and pays his taxes here...


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## Sunny (19 Oct 2006)

Purple said:


> and he lives in Ireland and pays his taxes here...


And trade unions hate him. Good enough for me to like him!


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## Meccano (19 Oct 2006)

rabbit said:


> *He is far from loathsome or a liability.*
> He heads one of Irelands most successful companies, one which was built from nothing in the dark days of the eighties. Remember when a seat cost £ 200 to London with Aer Fungus ? And that was when £ 200 was £ 200, and some houses were £ 10,000 to 20,000 in the country ?


Errr...this is 2006, there are dozens of LoCo carriers in the market. Ryanair wasn't even the first - not even in Ireland. He didn't invent the concept - he had to be shown it and then arm-twisted into improving it. 
And why whine about 20 year old history? You're like a broken record! Sure wasn't it *market forces* back then which dictated prices - same as now. I thought you were a capitalist?



> Fact is, Ryanair has 3 times more planes than Air Lingus, carries four times more passengers than Air Lingus, but yet Air Lingus has 13% more staff than Ryanair. Who is creating airline hubs on the continent ?


What that has to do with the loathsomeness of O'Leary I fail to see. Are you making a direct link between a CEO's loathsomeness and his succesfullness?



> Good old Mick O'Leary and Ryanair. Go on Mick, show the continentals what us Irish can do. A real success story. And a decent man to boot , judging by comments from his friends and neighbours.


Neighbours? Friends? Well I'm not a millionaire farmer or member of the landed gentry or the 'horsey set'. Maybe you are?

I know plenty of people who admire O'Leary as a ruthless business man - but I know nobody who likes him, and his admirers all say they wouldn't want to work for him.



> And trade unions hate him. Good enough for me to like him!


Ergo you must've liked Polands Communist military dictatorship - because the unions hated it (and brought it down, followed closely by the rest of the Communist edifice). You've got funny tastes in heroes. And strange logic too.

Ducksy is indeed a liability. Demonstrably.

If Richard Branson had bid for Aer Lingus - no resistance.
If BA had bid for Aer Lingus - little or no resistance.
If Emirates had bid for Aer Lingus - welcomed with open arms.

O'Leary makes the bid - Universal resistance. 

Result - he'll have to keep upping the offer - costing his company more money - and fight tooth and nail to gain every inch of ground, and even if he gets control the fallout over the next two years will destroy Aer Lingus, damage Ryanair, create a monopoly at Dublin Airport and lead to massive political damage to this and future governments.

Loathsome - *and* a liability.


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## Purple (19 Oct 2006)

> create a monopoly at Dublin Airport


 Like the Dublin Airport Authority?


> Ergo you must've liked Polands Communist military dictatorship - because the unions hated it (and brought it down, followed closely by the rest of the Communist edifice). You've got funny tastes in heroes. And strange logic too.


 Stretching it a bit there aren't you? If Hitler didn't like Mushrooms does it make me a Nazi if I don't like them either?


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## Sunny (19 Oct 2006)

Meccano said:


> Ergo you must've liked Polands Communist military dictatorship - because the unions hated it (and brought it down, followed closely by the rest of the Communist edifice). You've got funny tastes in heroes. And strange logic too.


 
Are you seriously trying to compare Lech Walesa with Jack O'Connor and his SIPTU coherts who spend their members subs on a fleet of mercedes cars for their representatives. Long live socialism


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## Meccano (19 Oct 2006)

Purple said:


> Like the Dublin Airport Authority?


By that standard then the IAA are a monopoly too then.
For your info - I oppose monopolies.



> Stretching it a bit there aren't you? If Hitler didn't like Mushrooms does it make me a Nazi if I don't like them either?


Ooooh dear, breaking Godwins Law means game over for you Purple. 
Byeee. 



> Are you seriously trying to compare Lech Walesa with Jack O'Connor and his SIPTU coherts who spend their members subs on a fleet of mercedes cars for their representatives. Long live socialism


Eh, no. I'm simply pointing out the stupidity of forming your opinions on the basis of what *other people* like or dislike.
Try thinking for yourself.


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## Sunny (19 Oct 2006)

Meccano said:


> Eh, no. I'm simply pointing out the stupidity of forming your opinions on the basis of what *other people* like or dislike.
> Try thinking for yourself.


 
And try not to get your knickers in a twist. Not every post on this thread has to be a serious written piece with important points in CAPITALS and in *bold. *Maybe I should make better use of the different faces in future to make sure people understand what it is said tongue in cheek and what is serious. 

And you are bordering on peronal attacks there as well so be careful


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## ludermor (19 Oct 2006)

Meccano,
You remind me of the people protesting against the gasworks in Rossport.


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## Meccano (19 Oct 2006)

ludermor said:


> Meccano,
> You remind me of the people protesting against the gasworks in Rossport.


Is that bordering on a personal attack?
Careful sonny!


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## ludermor (19 Oct 2006)

Well that depends on your opinion of the protestors


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## Humpback (19 Oct 2006)

Meccano said:


> Is that bordering on a personal attack?
> Careful sonny!


 
For you I would have thought such a comparison would have been a badge of honour?


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## Meccano (19 Oct 2006)

ronan_d_john said:


> For you I would have thought such a comparison would have been a badge of honour?


Nah, I'm not in the habit of lying down in the public road to protest gerbil emasculation etc.


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## MOB (19 Oct 2006)

I don't want to add petrol to a fire, but the naked hatred of Michael O'Leary displayed in some of these postings is really quite nasty.  The suggestion that Mr. O'Leary is oging to end up with Aer Lingus egg on his face is frankly laughable.  Surely we can at least acknowledge that, as a businessman, Mr. O'Leary is in the first rank when it comes to making a profit.


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## Humpback (19 Oct 2006)

MOB said:


> I don't want to add petrol to a fire, but the naked hatred of Michael O'Leary displayed in some of these postings is really quite nasty. The suggestion that Mr. O'Leary is oging to end up with Aer Lingus egg on his face is frankly laughable. Surely we can at least acknowledge that, as a businessman, Mr. O'Leary is in the first rank when it comes to making a profit.


 
I totally agree. We're dealing with the CEO of a company who'll do whatever necessary to squeeze money out of customers, or to squeeze waste out of it's processes and procedures. 

Consequently, I don't see how anyone could feasibly expect that MOL hasn't fully assessed all of the risks involved in this takeover bid, and mitigated against those risks.

While the government, the Unions, and Aer Lingus management never saw the approach of Ryanair coming, I would fully expect that most of the 
manoeuvrings recently in the AL saga would have been forseen as possible or expected by MOL and his advisors.

As a primary basis for saying this, you've got probably the most experienced US investment bank with regards to airlines backing MOL and Ryanair, Morgan Stanley. A bank who turned down flat any invitations to get involved in the AL float.


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## Purple (19 Oct 2006)

> Ooooh dear, breaking Godwins Law means game over for you Purple.
> Byeee.


 Well done. How can argue with such logic?


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## rabbit (19 Oct 2006)

Meccano said:


> What that has to do with the loathsomeness of O'Leary I fail to see. Are you making a direct link between a CEO's loathsomeness and his succesfullness?
> 
> Neighbours? Friends? Well I'm not a millionaire farmer or member of the landed gentry or the 'horsey set'. Maybe you are?


 
Mick O'Leary aint loathsome in everyones eyes, far from it. I'm not a millionaire farmer or member of the landed gentry or the 'horsey set' either, and even if I was, what has that to do with it ? There are three pubs in his local village ... he left 500 euro in each of them to buy everyone drink when his horse won last Paddys day I think it was. You did not have to be a millionaire farmer or member of the landed gentry or the 'horsey set' to qualify, far from it. Another friend I know had his ticket checked by Mick O'Leary on a plane one..... this act by the head of an airline who is humble enough to " muck in " and help out before catching the same plane to England himself says it all, when you compare it to the performance by the parasites in Air Fungus and the unions in years gone by.


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## Meccano (20 Oct 2006)

years gone by...click.....
years gone by...click.....
years gone by...click.....
years gone by...click.....


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## Meccano (20 Oct 2006)

MOB said:


> I don't want to add petrol to a fire, but the naked hatred of Michael O'Leary displayed in some of these postings is really quite nasty.


Micko's a big boy - his colourful language shows he can handle a bit of rough and tumble, eh?
Furthermore, any man who gets lambasted as a liar and a bully by a High Court judge needs no defending by mere mortals such as you MOB. 
Save your tears for a more deserving cause.



> Surely we can at least acknowledge that, as a businessman, Mr. O'Leary is in the first rank when it comes to making a profit.


So was Gordon Gecko. Another of your heroes?

All Hail Profit!
Bow down before the Mighty Dollar!
A mans worth is naught but his posessions!
All Hail Profit!

God, what a race of microbes we've bred!


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## MOB (20 Oct 2006)

I am almost sorry I posted.  I have no particular sympathy for Michael O'Leary, as I don't really know him and am not by any measure in any of his peer groups.  I know he is well liked in his community, and his business achievements are of course a matter of public record - that's really about it.  

My comment was prompted by previous contributions such as:

"Result - he'll have to keep upping the offer - costing his company more money - and fight tooth and nail to gain every inch of ground, and even if he gets control the fallout over the next two years will destroy Aer Lingus, damage Ryanair"

It is comments such as this which I find to be nonsensical.  There is simply no way that someone of Michael O'Leary's calibre hasn't already measured his risks, including the possibility of a "white knight" such as Denis O'Brien.

I made no comment good bad or indifferent as to whether I approve of what one might call naked capitalism, as exemplified by Ryanair.  I certainly have views on the issue, but they are not relevant to the point I was making.

I am not remotely concerned about defending Mr. O'Leary or any other highly successful businessman - nor do they need my defence.   It does bother me that there seems to exist such naked hatred.  Frankly, I think it is very bad indeed for people to hate in this way.   I am not being glib about this: negative emotions such as hatred are akin to toxins accumulating in the environment, and I firmly believe that they do long term damage.   It certainly won't bother Michael O'Leary that some people seem to hate him (though perhaps it should) but it does no good at all to the people doing the hating.


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## rabbit (20 Oct 2006)

MOB said:


> I am not remotely concerned about defending Mr. O'Leary or any other highly successful businessman - nor do they need my defence. It does bother me that there seems to exist such naked hatred. Frankly, I think it is very bad indeed for people to hate in this way. I am not being glib about this: negative emotions such as hatred are akin to toxins accumulating in the environment, and I firmly believe that they do long term damage. It certainly won't bother Michael O'Leary that some people seem to hate him (though perhaps it should) but it does no good at all to the people doing the hating.


 
Well said.   I agree 100 %   I think perhaps part of it at least is begrudgery.    If a relatively young person is very successful  ( and Michael O'Leary was young by any standards when he took over the loss making Ryanair and turned it around, and his success as a businessman is on public record ) in Ireland unfortunately the tendency is for begrudgery from some quarters.   Ironically sometimes the criticism is from people who have beneffited from low fares  and / or people in the tourism industry, which has boomed as a result of low fares.


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## Meccano (20 Oct 2006)

Begrudgery? Hatred?
The Irish have developed it to an artform!

Speaking as an outsider - I observe that the Irish national psyche has a truly pathetic streak of deep seated self hatred, manifested in the love of money above any basic humanity, and delight in seeing a fellow human being squirm. 

The Germans call it Schadenfreude - but the Irish have refined it to the nth degree. 

Strangely, this behaviour is inexplicable by the masses, and is in fact unconsciously engaged in by them. They cannot define it, or articulate it - they simply know the feeling to be viscerally satisfying. 

I consider it to be the very essence of a communal 'Post Colonial Hangover' - spectacularily demonstrated in this thread by sentiments which frame Mr.O'Leary as a form of rebel leader fighting to rescue Irish honour from the craven 'Continentals'(?), a man of the people who showers beneficent gifts on the plebs, and a sad preoccupation with a historic abuse that the heroic 'Il Duce' has saved his people from. 

Given their masochistic mentality, the Irish will forever be (to paraphrase Micko) 'nothing but a small regional grouping'.

Getting rather off-topic I guess, but O'Leary and O'Gara's naked ambition and greed - bolstered by this uniquely Irish schadenfreude - are fascinating social phenomena, don't you think.


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## rabbit (21 Oct 2006)

Meccano said:


> Begrudgery? Hatred?
> The Irish have developed it to an artform!


 
Exactly. Many Irish begrudge success stories like Michael O'Leary and Ryanair, probably Ireland most successful company grown over the last few decades.
Some Irish think the world , EC or whoever owes us a living. It was not this mentality - or indeed a trade union mentality - which made Ryanair the success it is today.    A success for all concerned.    Passengers, shareholders , staff I know who work there , staff who work in the tourism industry fuelled by cheap flights etc etc.  Or maybe you would just prefer to stand up for the underworked , inefficient and overpaid  Air Lingus employees of the 70's and 80's ?   Those days are gone in todays world.    Ryanair has 3 times more planes than Air Lingus, carries four times more passengers than Air Lingus, but yet Air Lingus has 13% more staff than Ryanair.  Thank God for Ryanair, which helped destroy the monopoly of Air Fungus.  I have no connection with any airline, apart from enjoying much lower airfares nowadays than in the early eighties, for example.    I have also noticed staff more pleasant on Ryanair flights rather than Air Lingus - perhaps this will change if Air Lingus staff also have shares in their airline now.


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## Meccano (21 Oct 2006)

rabbit said:


> A success for all concerned. Passengers, shareholders , staff I know who work there , staff who work in the tourism industry fuelled by cheap flights etc etc.


Laughable stuff....you've got some imagination. Ryanair is a sweatshop employer. 
The terrible working conditions in the company are known worldwide. Most of their employees are contract workers - he runs a 'virtual airline' and uses the low number of* permanent* staff to spin his propoganda about inefficiencies at other companies. 
Only 11 Irish cabin crew work in Dublin now - the rest are East Europeans who get no 'roster' but are told they are on permanent standby duty at the airport - they have to show up every morning at 6AM to see if there is any work for them. They are thus effectively non-permanent too. 
There is no such thing as a guarenteed day-off, they are on permanent standby. Days off are notified last minute by phone.
The Irish pilots based in Dublin are all leaving - and being replaced by Brazilians who are allowed stay here only as long Ryanair will sponsor their work-permits. They are paid nothing during their months of training and then they're financially bonded afterward for 50K - this makes them effectively slave labour. They *can't leave* unless they pay up the 50K, they *can't stay* without Ryanairs approval for the work permit, and they receive *no salary* during training - they are in the same situation as the Share-Croppers in the US depression in the 30's. 
This is the company who threatened to fire any staff member who plugged their mobile phone in at the office (stealing electricity!) and who's boss advised them to steal pens from other offices or hotel rooms so he didn't have to supply them.
They sack workers summarily if they attempt to form any kind of union - usually picking the 'ring leaders' to make an example of. They have been succesfully sued by same employees for unfair dismissal.
Ryanair recently fought yet another lengthy high court battle with several of their pilots, which they again lost. During his judgement, the Judge rejected as *baseless and false* the evidence of Ryanair director of personnel Mr.Eddie Wilson and considered Mr.Warwick Brady to have given *false evidence*. 
*Perjury*, in plain language! I'm still waiting for the DPP to take it further!
Ryanairs costs were about 1 million euro.

Oh, and lets not forget the passengers! Especially the lady who won 'free flights for life' from Ryanair and was then told to take a hike when she tried to claim her flights! She ended up in the courts too, and won!

And don't forget about the wheelchair-bound passengers who were turned away and told they weren't wanted because Ryanair refused to carry them and their wheelchairs. 
Another court case - which Ryanair lost yet again. 
But hey - no problem - they simply put a 'wheelchair levy' on all tickets to cover the cost, so now you pay! They even call it a 'wheelchair levy' just so the money grubbers out there know who to blame for the expense! 

As you can see, Ryanair have a terible time in the courts - they always seem to pick the wrong horse. On the other hand - sweating your victims through the high court (and maybe an appeal or two) is usually a good enough scare tactic to make sure you keep the vast majority of them annoying croppies lying down. 
And whats a few million on lawyers fees when you have billions in the bank and the victim only has a 1 bed apartment in Swords? If it keeps the rest on their knees, its money well spent.

While they'll waste a fortune pursuing under represented and isolated staff members through the courts, the salaries are rotten and there are no pensions provisions. 

But heck - he leaves 500 euro behind a bar in Mullingar for the clientele to get p***ed and that shows he's a great guy?
Maybe if you drink in O'Learys local in Mullingar! Maybe if you're easy bought, and have zero scruples!

You call this a good deal? Ryanair a great employer? What utter tosh! Get real!

[broken link removed]



> Or maybe you would just prefer to stand up for the underworked , inefficient and overpaid Air Lingus_[sic]_ employees of the 70's and 80's ? *Those days are gone in todays world*.


Yeah...so I keep reminding you. Funny how it doesn't sink in. 



> Ryanair has 3 times more planes than Air Lingus_[sic], _carries four times more passengers than Air Lingus_[sic]_, but yet Air Lingus_[sic]_ has 13% more staff than Ryanair.


Whats does this have to do with the price of cheese?
QANTAS has double the number of aircraft as Ryanair....does that mean something to you? Because if its just willy waving - you lose.

By the way, it's AER Lingus - with an 'E'.
Seriously, how credible are your opinions when you can't even spell the name of the Irish National Carrier?


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## rabbit (22 Oct 2006)

The Irish National Carrier is now Ryanair.   It has 3 times more planes than Aer Fungus ( call it what you like in whatever language you speak )_, _carries four times more passengers than Aer Fungus , but yet Aer Fungus has 13% more staff than Ryanair.


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## rabbit (22 Oct 2006)

Meccano said:


> QANTAS has double the number of aircraft as Ryanair....does that mean something to you?


 
So what? Nobody mentioned Australia, or Qantas, or the population difference between Ireland and Australia, or the vast size of Australia etc etc. 

Anyway, from the Qantas website :

OPERATIONAL STATISTICS - QANTAS GROUP
Passengers carried : Half-year ended
31 December 2005
Half-year ended
31 December 2004
Qantas Domestic 9,762,000 Qantas International 4,776,000​ 
Ryanair carry 35 million passengers this year, and it is increasing rapidly each and every year. Maybe you would prefer if Ireland did not have success stories like Ryanair.   Maybe you begrudge the many Ryanair staff who have shares in Ryanair.      Maybe you would prefer the Ireland of the 50's or 80's.​


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## Meccano (22 Oct 2006)

You seem to have difficulty understanding english...is it your native tongue? 
If not, I sincerely apologise to you.

Let me try again.

As much as possible, Ryanair does not employ permanent staff.
They have as many, if not more staff than Aer Lingus, but they choose to twist that fact to fool unwary people (such as yourself, unfortunately).

The truth is that Ryanair have many hundreds more employees than they care to admit to. 
For example, only 20% of their pilots are in permanent positions - the rest are contractors whose numbers they choose to ignore. 
So do you.

Perhaps if you consider the fact that *aircraft do not fly themselves* - nor do passengers board themselves, feed and water themselves, clean the cabins, load and unload bags, or fuel the aircraft - you would realise that *logically* if they have more aircraft *they must have the employees to operate them!* Doh!

If you call Ryanair a 'success story' I would say - keep it! 
The world is better off without ignorant shysters, liars and bullys who think money is the be all and end all, and that they can use it to allow them to break the law as it pleases them and crush anyone who stands against them. 
That to me is tyranny, not good business. There are many other LoCo carriers in europe who provide a friendlier and better service than Ryanair. Aer Lingus for instance.

PS...Please stop using Capital Letters and Large Text. Its already been pointed out (by Sunny) that this equates to shouting.

PPS. The Irish National Carrier is still Aer Lingus. And thats the fact.

PPPS. QANTAS is a Long Haul carrier. Ryanair is a high frequency cattle car operation. Hence the difference in passenger numbers, and also the reason why Ryanair will shut down Irelands long haul services if it gets control of the National Carrier. I realise subtleties like this may be difficult for you to understand if you aren't familiar with airlines and flight operations - or can't correctly spell certain airlines names.


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## rabbit (22 Oct 2006)

Meccano said:


> PS...Please stop using Capital Letters and Large Text. Its already been pointed out (by Sunny) that this equates to shouting.


I copied and pasted the statistics from the Qantas website, which included a four worded heading in capital letters - big deal.

To get back to the point, Ryanair, being Irelands largest airline, carries much more passengers than Aer Fungus. Four times more actually. It has three times more planes. Where do all the people "work" in Aer Fungus ? It still has a sizeable catering department for example, even though it buys in all of its sandwiches etc.     I do not care when I travel if the people I come across in airlines, in bus companies, in taxies, in fast food restaurants are permanent or  franchisees or independent or black or white.  As long as they do the job properly and safely.    Ryanair has a 100% safety record, unlike Aer Lingus.   Ryanair is by all accounts more efficient.   Ryanair is chosen by more and more consumers each year.  Ryanair has a healthier track record re. shareholder satisfaction.   Ryanair was not bailed out by the Irish taxpayer time and time again.

 Ah well I suppose, the civil service mentality - like begrudgery - is hard to erase from work practices completely.


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## rabbit (22 Oct 2006)

Meccano said:


> Ryanair will shut down Irelands long haul services if it gets control of the National Carrier.


Not if its profitable. I realise subtleties like this may be difficult for you to understand if you aren't familiar with airlines and flight operations, basic economics and common sense in todays world.   In fact there has been speculation than trans-atlantic services  would be expanded, and possibly linking up with south west airlines, to the mutual benefit of both airlines, who would help feed each other.


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## Meccano (22 Oct 2006)

> Where do all the people "work" in Aer Fungus ?


Why do all the people who work for Ryanair not appear in their reports?



> It still has a sizeable catering department for example, even though it buys in all of its sandwiches etc


Aer Lingus has Fully Catered long-haul Business Class and Economy service which requires daily catering for over 2,000 passengers. 
Ryanair has no Business class - Cattle Class only - no catering required. 
Guess you missed that important difference. 



> Not if its profitable.


Quote from O'Leary in last weeks newspapers *"We don't do long-haul".*
From the horses mouth.

You seem preoccupied with the number of aircraft Ryanair has as a measure of its success.
The measure used by airlines is *yield.*
Yield is measured in RPK's. Look that up.

QANTAS Yield in RPK's 10% + and increasing.
Ryanair Yield in RPK's 5.5% and falling.

QANTAS profit 2005 - 775Million USD
Ryanair Profit 2005 - 459 M USD

Ryanair doesn't even feature on the list of Top Ten airlines by Total Scheduled Passenger-Kilometers Flown in 2005 or Top Ten Total Scheduled Freight Tonne/Kilometers Flown in 2005.

*It is 31st in the world by fleet size.*

Ryanair is a medium sized fish in a small UK/Ireland/European Short Haul passenger market - it is limited by its model to always remaining a niche market player in a very limited market. Its ultimate growth prospects are thus terminally stunted. Its only hope for further growth is to destroy all competition until it becomes a monolithic monopoly dominating that marketplace. A prospect which gives any sane person a shiver of utter disgust.


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## rabbit (22 Oct 2006)

Meccano said:


> Why do all the people who work for Ryanair not appear in their reports?


The people who work for Ryanair do appear in their reports. All employees do pay prsi etc and are accounted for. Unlike Aer Fungus, all employees in Ryanair do actually work efficiently and earn their money.




Meccano said:


> Aer Lingus has Fully Catered long-haul Business Class and Economy service which requires daily catering for over 2,000 passengers.
> Ryanair has no Business class - Cattle Class only - no catering required.
> Guess you missed that important difference.


 

I never saw cattle on an aeroplane. I think the reason Ryanair staff are generally thought of as friendlier and better than Aer Fungus is because many Ryanair staff have shares in Ryanair, and are pround to be part of a rapidly growing, successful and efficient Irish company. 





Meccano said:


> Quote from O'Leary in last weeks newspapers *"We don't do long-haul".*
> From the horses mouth..


He is correct. Ryanair at present do not do long haul. However, their longest route is increasing, and no businessman or company rules out what may happen in the future. In the event of Ryanait taking over Aer Lingus, do you seriously think he would close the north Atlantic routes if they were profitable, and if they were helping to feed his European hubs ?




Meccano said:


> You seem preoccupied with the number of aircraft Ryanair has as a measure of its success.


No I am not. I merely pointed out how much more successful Ryanair is compared to Aer Lingus, in terms of size, number of passengers carried, efficiency, shareholder satisfaction , growth etc etc


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## jdwex (22 Oct 2006)

rabbit said:


> I think the reason Ryanair staff are generally thought of as friendlier and better than Aer Fungus is because many Ryanair staff have shares in Ryanair, and are pround to be part of a rapidly growing, successful and efficient Irish company.


In all seriousness I don't know where you got that one from. Most ofthe Ryanair cabin crew I have spoken to wouldn't be too complimentary of MOL.


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## rabbit (22 Oct 2006)

jdwex said:


> In all seriousness I don't know where you got that one from. Most ofthe Ryanair cabin crew I have spoken to wouldn't be too complimentary of MOL.


 LOL Do you fly Ryanair and ask the cabin crew what they think of the head of their company ? How many Ryanair employees have you questioned on their leader, and is that quantity a representative sample do you think ? 
Besides, MOB and the rest of his team at Ryanair answer to their shareholders and customers at the end of the day. 
Morale and attitudes within Ryanair between cabin crew and their leader / chief executive is important, but what people want is cheap and efficient and safe air travel when it comes to short haul routes.  They had enough of paying Air Fungus £ 200 to fly to England in the 70's and 80's , when money was money. 
As I said, the reason Ryanair staff are generally thought of as friendlier and better than Aer Fungus is because many Ryanair staff have shares in Ryanair, and are pround to be part of a rapidly growing, successful and efficient Irish company. They have a vested interest ....hence one of the reasons for the rapid growth in Ryanair over the years. If you give someone a share of the business, they will usually work harder and be more efficient. That is why capitalism works and communism does not. 
It is one of the reasons our semi-state companies generally - and I say generally - do not make money, and are more often than not poor value for the consumer as well as their shareholder - you and me. Its fine however if you are one of their overpaid and underworked employees. 
Statistics show the public sector is well overpaid compared with the private sector. Ask Eddie Hobbs, he touched on that subject on TV there recently.


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## jdwex (22 Oct 2006)

rabbit said:


> LOL Do you fly Ryanair and ask the cabin crew what they think of the head of their company ? How many Ryanair employees have you questioned on their leader, and is that quantity a representative sample do you think ?
> As I said, the reason Ryanair staff are generally thought of as friendlier and better than Aer Fungus is because many Ryanair staff have shares in Ryanair, and are pround to be part of a rapidly growing, successful and efficient Irish company.


 
I have met plenty of cabin crew socially. As for the second paragraph - it is hogwash.


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## rabbit (22 Oct 2006)

jdwex said:


> I have met plenty of cabin crew socially.


 
Good for you. If they cry in their beer about their boss, why do they not go work for another boss ?  Or set up an airline themselves ? 
Any Ryanair people I met held their company and boss in high esteem. Ryanair is a successful Irish company, grown from nothing over a few decades. We could have done with more of them. Remember the days of the Aer Lingus monopoly? Fair play to Ryanair.


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## Meccano (22 Oct 2006)

Most of what rabbit says is indeed hogwash. Recycled and endlessly repeated hogwash, straight from the hog pen of Ryanair HQ. 
He can repeat it as often as he likes, but the whole world knows what life in Ryanair is like for its employees, and rabbits hilarious and hysterically repeated denials merely serve to emphasise his myopia.

You don't have to be an employee to be a victim of Ryanairs ill treatment - simply try getting a refund.

Anyhow, enough of his nonsense. Its getting boring and repetitive.

I've read several of the Sunday newspapers now, and even those which are usually pro-O'Leary have analyses declaring the pendulum is swinging against his takeover bid succeeding.
I forecast that my own prediction will come to pass - he will sit on 20% and use it to frustrate and sabotage the long-haul expansion plans Aer Lingus had for next year. He will additionally dump capacity into the Irish market in an attempt to 'bust' Aer Lingus on the shorthaul market.
personal invective removed by aj


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## ajapale (22 Oct 2006)

Thread closed.

LOS is for discussing current affairs, sports etc. Please try to keep it rational/polite.


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