# Greenan Open Fund investment



## AntoCOD (10 Aug 2020)

Hi,

I've recently changed job and had to do something with my pension from my previous company. I wanted something not very risky and my financial advisor recommended putting it all into the Greenman open fund j series.
I've no knowledge of investments so am very much been guided by him on this.
However I'm nervous especially due to covid-19 as it's a fund interesting in retail in Germany. And also as it's all my eggs in one basket as it were.

Has anyone any advice?

Thanks,
Anto


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## LDFerguson (10 Aug 2020)

The Greenman Open fund is a good fund but I wouldn't recommend that anyone puts their entire pension fund into any single asset class, e.g. property in this case.  I'm assuming that your financial advisor is recommending that you invest in this fund via an Aviva policy.  Aviva have other fund choices and you should be able to invest in the Greenman fund along with other funds offered by Aviva, within the one policy.


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## Marc (10 Aug 2020)

This is an appalling recommendation

i would strongly recommend seeking another adviser


Marc Westlake
Chartered Certified and European Financial Planner
www.globalwealth.ie


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## Gordon Gekko (10 Aug 2020)

AntoCOD said:


> Hi,
> 
> I've recently changed job and had to do something with my pension from my previous company. I wanted something not very risky and my financial advisor recommended putting it all into the Greenman open fund j series.
> I've no knowledge of investments so am very much been guided by him on this.
> ...



Your “financial advisor”, and I use the term in the loosest possible sense, is a scoundrel.

That is an appalling recommendation that should be reported to the Central Bank.

Ask this “advisor” for a detailed breakdown of all commission payable to him/her in respect of this “investment”.

Incredible; scum of the earth stuff. People like that should be driven out of financial services.

The worrying thing is the number of people who don’t come to a site like AAM and get pointed in the right direction. Shocking.


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## AntoCOD (11 Aug 2020)

Marc said:


> This is an appalling recommendation
> 
> i would strongly recommend seeking another adviser


Thanks Marc. This advisor was recommended to me. What is the best way to source a different one? It's hard to know to be honest.
Anto


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## AntoCOD (11 Aug 2020)

LDFerguson said:


> The Greenman Open fund is a good fund but I wouldn't recommend that anyone puts their entire pension fund into any single asset class, e.g. property in this case.  I'm assuming that your financial advisor is recommending that you invest in this fund via an Aviva policy.  Aviva have other fund choices and you should be able to invest in the Greenman fund along with other funds offered by Aviva, within the one policy.


Thanks, I'll do that as a first step.
Anto


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## Steven Barrett (11 Aug 2020)

Whatever about the fund (not something I recommend so I don't read up on where the properties are invested), you need to know the way this product is priced. I seriously think it should be looked at. 

You set up your pension with Aviva. The broker can get paid a commission by Aviva for this. 
But now Aviva have created this self directed option using Cantor Fitzgerald, where you can go off and invest in other funds and products. The likes of Greenman, Blackbee and other structured products are available through this self directed option so the advisor gets paid a second commission for selling these products too. 

of course, Brokers can do this too through the regular self administered pension structures but the charges are a bit more transparent under these schemes.

Steven
www.bluewaterfp.ie


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## Dave Vanian (11 Aug 2020)

@Marc @Gordon Gekko @SBarrett 

You've all given a thumbs down to the original advice.  

Have any of you got any comments to make about the fund itself? 

What do you think should @AntoCOD do instead?


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## Swayam_989 (11 Aug 2020)

It all depends on the risk profile of @AntoCOD. There are funds with all the pension providers within the range of lowest risk to highest risk possible. 

If he is conservative but still want a decent growth on the investments, a mix between risk 3 & 4 funds would be the ideal choice for a longer term. Exposure in gold could be taken as a diversification tool ( Gold fund only available by Aviva & Zurich). 

The fund performance of all the funds in the Irish market based on various risk levels can be viewed at http://funds.irishtimes.com/


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## Steven Barrett (11 Aug 2020)

Dave Vanian said:


> @Marc @Gordon Gekko @SBarrett
> 
> You've all given a thumbs down to the original advice.
> 
> ...






SBarrett said:


> *Whatever about the fund (not something I recommend so I don't read up on where the properties are invested)*,



I have absolutely no idea where the OP should invest their money. I don't know who they are, what their circumstances are, what their attitude to investment risk is, what they need, what other assets they have. It is impossible to recommend (and professionally negligent) an investment strategy without at least getting some information from the poster first. 


Steven
www.bluewaterfp.ie


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## Marc (11 Aug 2020)

*Investment Under consideration: Greenman Open Fund



ISSUER: Greenman Investments SCA

SEDOL: BKMDZ78

ISIN: LU2074594297

Legal Structure           SICAV

Domicile                      Luxembourg



Diversification*


When constructing a portfolio, investors are seeking to take advantage of the non-correlation between different asset classes to reduce portfolio volatility and risk profile. In a multi-asset class portfolio, the differing risk reward parameters of cash, fixed interest securities, property and equities have long been used to provide superior risk adjusted returns.

Because of this, our due diligence process is constantly on the lookout for new opportunities for investment which are uncorrelated with other asset classes.


*What is Greenman Open Fund*


An alternative Investment Fund (AIF) promoted by an Irish company, predominantly via Friends First Self-directed Pensions investing in German “Strip-mall style” retail parks predominantly in food retail.
* 

Is it a unique investment option?*

No, because other commercial property vehicles exist, it is necessary to compare this with the alternatives in order to assess which is the best investment option.


*Limitations*


Gearing – the fund borrows to invest which has the effect of increasing the investment risk and therefore potential gains and losses for investors

Charges – in global terms this is a relatively small fund and therefore has higher charges than comparable alternatives

Diversification – The fund only invests in Germany where our preference is to invest globally

Daily priced – no, the fund is *quarterly priced* and has lockins

* 

Risk Warnings


Liquidity risk*

Investments in the fund should be considered illiquid.

The fund intends to use a substantial portion of the funds to purchase direct property investments with gearing

Such an investment is essentially illiquid. Therefore the fund may not have access to liquid assets to make any payment to shareholders unless additional subscriptions can be attracted or a property sold.

Accordingly, delays may occur in redemption payments. In order to increase the funds liquidity, the Manager will seek to hold “adequate” cash to match redemptions which will result in “cash drag” reducing performance potential
* 

Investment risk*

It should be remembered that the price of the Shares and the income (if any) from them can go down as well as up and that, on the redemption of their Shares, investors may not receive the amount that they originally invested. The volatility in the value of investments may be reduced by investing as part of a diversified portfolio with adequate liquidity.

The return on the investment will be dependent in large part upon the ability and expertise of the investment Adviser to source and price the investments. The pricing of a property is dependent upon the quarterly valuations provided by the valuer and these are a matter of opinion until a property is sold.

*Opinion*

Given the availability of lower cost, larger, more liquid and more globally diversified commercial property investments we see no reason to favour this fund over the alternatives.

www.globalwealth.ie


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## Gordon Gekko (11 Aug 2020)

Dave Vanian said:


> @Marc @Gordon Gekko @SBarrett
> 
> You've all given a thumbs down to the original advice.
> 
> ...



Somewhat analagous to suggesting that someone doesn’t shoot themselves in the face only to be asked “well what would you do differently?”

Well I wouldn’t shoot myself in the face, i.e. be hoodwinked by a crooked broker for starters.

I’d go and talk to someone reputable, e.g. Steven who’s namechecked above.


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## LDFerguson (11 Aug 2020)

@Gordon Gekko I don't know the original poster or his broker, but I'm a bit surprised by your responses to this, to be honest.  Steven has pointed out the possibility that a broker could be paid by both Greenman and Aviva for putting someone in this fund.  A broker can also choose to be paid by only one, e.g. to reinvest commission from Aviva and take commission from Greenman.  

Every single one of the pension companies that distribute through brokers - Irish Life, Zurich Life, Aviva, Standard Life, New Ireland - offer a choice of charging structures on every single pension product.  If a broker wants to take obscene loads of commission, s/he can, to the detriment of the client.  The reason that so many possible charging structures exist is that many brokers choose to offer a better deal to their client with a view to forging a long-term relationship, rather than gouging every single client for every cent commission they can earn.  That's why the good charging structures exist at all.  Because of demand for them.          

Why do you assume that the OP's broker is a "scoundrel" and a "crooked broker" engaging in "scum of the earth stuff"?  

If the OP had said that the broker was double-dipping on commissions, or had given enough information in the first post to enable us to conclude that he had been recommended a fund that was contrary to his needs or wants and the information provided in the fact-finding, then I'd agree with you.  Bad brokers do no favours to anyone in the industry.  But there's not enough information in the posts to conclude this.


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## EmmDee (11 Aug 2020)

Dave Vanian said:


> Have any of you got any comments to make about the fund itself?



On a quick scan, it's difficult to find an up to date prospectus for the fund - hard to give comments. It's not on their website and anything I can find is from the initial offering.


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## AAAContributor (11 Aug 2020)

Perhaps the OP can clarify if this pension from his previous company represents 100% of his total pension assets, what those assets are currently invested in and also if they could provide their age range? The OP's comment "it's all my eggs in one basket" would suggest that the proposed Greenman investment would represent 100% of the pension assets. If this is the case, I think that most readers of this thread would rightly conclude that the proposed recommendation is dubious and rightly questioned the motives of the adviser. Compensation incentives may have influenced the advice but more info is needed.


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## Gordon Gekko (11 Aug 2020)

LDFerguson said:


> @Gordon Gekko I don't know the original poster or his broker, but I'm a bit surprised by your responses to this, to be honest.  Steven has pointed out the possibility that a broker could be paid by both Greenman and Aviva for putting someone in this fund.  A broker can also choose to be paid by only one, e.g. to reinvest commission from Aviva and take commission from Greenman.
> 
> Every single one of the pension companies that distribute through brokers - Irish Life, Zurich Life, Aviva, Standard Life, New Ireland - offer a choice of charging structures on every single pension product.  If a broker wants to take obscene loads of commission, s/he can, to the detriment of the client.  The reason that so many possible charging structures exist is that many brokers choose to offer a better deal to their client with a view to forging a long-term relationship, rather than gouging every single client for every cent commission they can earn.  That's why the good charging structures exist at all.  Because of demand for them.
> 
> ...



Punter wants a low risk investment and gets ‘Greenman’, a leveraged German commercial property fund that happens to pay big juicy commissions.

All of it!

I stand by my comments.


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## LDFerguson (11 Aug 2020)

Gordon Gekko said:


> ...that happens to pay big juicy commissions.



Irish Life, Zurich Life, Aviva, Standard Life and New Ireland also pay "big juicy commissions".  What are your thoughts on these companies and any brokers that advise people to invest with them?


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## AntoCOD (11 Aug 2020)

Thanks all for your comments, I appreciate them.
I think I need to have a proper look into what I've done with this investment and not just go with what the advisor has invested for me.

I know I should have questioned alot more but to be honest I just trusted him as a qualified professional with expertise in this field.

Anto


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## Gordon Gekko (11 Aug 2020)

LDFerguson said:


> Irish Life, Zurich Life, Aviva, Standard Life and New Ireland also pay "big juicy commissions".  What are your thoughts on these companies and any brokers that advise people to invest with them?



Liam, with respect, I think that you’re missing the point.

Upfront or trail commissions are okay if they’re properly disclosed to the client and if the investment solution proposed is appropriate.

But on what planet is the following okay:

“Hello Mr Broker, I’d like something that’s ‘not very risky’ for my pension fund; just to let you know, I’ve no knowledge of investments.”

“No, problem, I have this leveraged German property fund that’s quite remunerative for me; you should put it all in that.”

All of it. Into the Greenman leveraged property fund. German retail property. All of it. Yes, all of it.


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## Gordon Gekko (12 Aug 2020)

AntoCOD said:


> I just trusted him as a qualified professional with expertise in this field



That was your big mistake. Of course there are good brokers out there. Steven and Liam, for example, based on their posting history.

However, and this is merely my own view, most are as dishonest as they are stupid. Chancers and charlatans out to rape and pillage and fill their boots insofar as they can. The world of the financial broker is a swamp in which clients must tread very carefully.


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## LDFerguson (13 Aug 2020)

Gordon Gekko said:


> That was your big mistake. Of course there are good brokers out there. Steven and Liam, for example, based on their posting history.
> 
> However, and this is merely my own view, most are as dishonest as they are stupid. Chancers and charlatans out to rape and pillage and fill their boots insofar as they can. The world of the financial broker is a swamp in which clients must tread very carefully.



I thank you for your comments on my AAM posts.  But I disagree with your post in general.  I could counter with my own opinion that, having been in the life & pensions business for over 30 years, I have met scores of brokers and most of them are professionals trying to provide a good service and make an honest living.  The smaller outfits in particular have a strong motivation to do a good job - referral business.  Anyone that's been in the business for more than a few years knows that repeat and referral business is the strongest form of advertising you have.  If you rip a single customer off, they might not know immediately but they'll know in a few years' time when their fund values are rubbish.  You've just chopped down an entire family tree of potential referrers, along with their friends and colleagues.  Increasing regulation has also raised the standard and got rid of some of the chancers. Are there still dodgy, incompetent, greedy and/or downright dishonest brokers out there?  Hell yes.  Would I agree with your statement "*most* are as dishonest as they are stupid"?  No.  But then this would be merely my opinion based on anecdotal evidence of my own experience, against your opinion, also presumably based on your own experience.


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## Extraspin (6 May 2021)

can’t get nav returns for each year from Greenman. Anytime I check their website they are maintaining everything is ok and quarterly distributions are being met. They have maintained that 2020 had returns of 5% but when digging deeper I discover it’s more like 2%. Has anyone any experience with this fund or this company.


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## Coffeeortea (11 May 2021)

Extraspin said:


> can’t get nav returns for each year from Greenman. Anytime I check their website they are maintaining everything is ok and quarterly distributions are being met. They have maintained that 2020 had returns of 5% but when digging deeper I discover it’s more like 2%. Has anyone any experience with this fund or this company.


I’m in this investment since April 2020 and to date I have seen a 1.6% fund value increase and have had returns paid back to me of just over €2,000. I’m told there will also be an additional bonus of 1% paid in Jun/Jul which means my total return is 1.6% fund growth plus €2,508 in dividends or as they call them distributions. I can see this as I have access to my account and its clearly laid out. This means my return is 6.61% for 15 months and in line with what I was told it would do. Another thread mentioned 8% returns, I was advised between 5 to 6%. I’m in the option that pays out dividends but there is another option that rolls the dividends up if I recall which means the fund growth would be higher.


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## Shirazman (11 May 2021)

Coffeeortea said:


> I’m in this investment since April 2020 and to date I have seen a 1.6% fund value increase and have had returns paid back to me of just over €2,000. I’m told there will also be an additional bonus of 1% paid in Jun/Jul which means my total return is 1.6% fund growth plus €2,508 in dividends or as they call them distributions. I can see this as I have access to my account and its clearly laid out. This means my return is 6.61% for 15 months and in line with what I was told it would do. Another thread mentioned 8% returns, I was advised between 5 to 6%. I’m in the option that pays out dividends but there is another option that rolls the dividends up if I recall which means the fund growth would be higher.



I'm very interested to read that you have (online?) access to your account.    Did your broker arrange this for you?  I ask because I have to ask my broker for statements and would much prefer to have my own access. 

In the 3 years since I invested in Greenman, the value of my capital investment has fallen by 1.2%; however, I have received quarterly distributions (and bonuses) worth about 13% of its original value.   Of course, as the distributions are taxed at 41% the net value to me is only 7.8% of the value of the investment.     But overall I'm quite satisfied with the performance of my Greenman investment to date.


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## Marc (11 May 2021)

We really like UCITs funds which are priced daily and publish their price publicly and can also provide audited accounts.

Then you know what you hold, what it costs and what it’s worth.

Given that, why would you buy this fund?









						In Search of the Perfect Investment Portfolio - Everlake
					

Many investors find it difficult to achieve returns offered by the markets due to a misunderstanding of investment risk, costs and taxes.




					globalwealth.ie
				




Marc Westlake
Chartered Certified and European Financial Planner
www.globalwealth.ie


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## Gordon Gekko (11 May 2021)

Shirazman said:


> I'm very interested to read that you have (online?) access to your account.    Did your broker arrange this for you?  I ask because I have to ask my broker for statements and would much prefer to have my own access.
> 
> In the 3 years since I invested in Greenman, the value of my investment has fallen by 1.2%; however, I have received quarterly distributions (and bonuses) worth about 13% of its original value.   Of course, as the distributions are taxed at 41% the net value to me is only 7.8% of the value of the investment.     But overall I'm quite satisfied with the performance of my Greenman investment to date.


I’m sorry, but this Greenman stuff is just being flogged by brokers because it pays them juicy commissions.

It’s a German property fund with leverage designed to make money for the promoters and for its distributors, who are mainly old school “wanna buy a watch” brokers.

If my adviser showed me Greenman, I’d look for a new adviser.


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## jpd (11 May 2021)

is this a re-run of the recent blow up in German property plays?


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## Shirazman (11 May 2021)

Gordon Gekko said:


> *If my adviser showed me Greenman, I’d look for a new adviser.*



What's the point?   I'm currently on my fourth.    And at this point I'm fed up of the lot of them.   

By far the best return that I got from any investment that I've ever made came from the 10 year National Solidarity Bond (1st issue) - and I selected that all by myself without any input from QFA!


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## Shirazman (11 May 2021)

Marc said:


> We really like UCITs funds which are priced daily and publish their price publicly and can also provide audited accounts.
> 
> Then you know what you hold, what it costs and what it’s worth.
> 
> Given that, why would you buy this fund?



Because my *****y QFA recommended it.    

Incidentally, who is or are "we"?


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## Gordon Gekko (11 May 2021)

A QFA is meaningless. It’s the most basic of qualifications. You should be dealing with CFAs, CFPs, tax consultants, etc.


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## Shirazman (11 May 2021)

Gordon Gekko said:


> A QFA is meaningless. It’s the most basic of qualifications. You should be dealing with CFAs, CFPs, tax consultants, etc.



And what guarantee would I have the next professional adviser with a fancy acronym that I deal with will be any better than the previous ones?

Answer: absolutely none.  Or, to quote Steven "I don't give guarantees".


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## Marc (12 May 2021)

My guess is that you are going to sales brokers who are paid a commission for selling you a product when what you are seeking is objective advice










						Choosing an adviser How to choose an adviser
					

One of the most important financial decisions an individual investor can undertake is in selecting the right adviser. The following checklist may help guide you in making the right choices




					joom.ag
				




There is no fiduciary standard in Ireland, as there is in the USA for example.

Financial planners have to hold themselves to higher standards and in my view one way is setting out clearly their investment philosophy






						Insights - Everlake
					

Insights, expertise and thoughts on Financial Planning in Ireland, including our Expert Guides to help answer your financial questions.




					globalwealth.ie


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## Steven Barrett (12 May 2021)

Coffeeortea said:


> I’m in this investment since April 2020 and to date I have seen a 1.6% fund value increase and have had returns paid back to me of just over €2,000. I’m told there will also be an additional bonus of 1% paid in Jun/Jul which means my total return is 1.6% fund growth plus €2,508 in dividends or as they call them distributions. I can see this as I have access to my account and its clearly laid out. This means my return is 6.61% for 15 months and in line with what I was told it would do. Another thread mentioned 8% returns, I was advised between 5 to 6%. I’m in the option that pays out dividends but there is another option that rolls the dividends up if I recall which means the fund growth would be higher.



In that period, a global index of stocks is up 50% and the S&P 500 is up 53%. This is way above the long term average return that would be expected for an equity fund, but then, I don't make any predictions on returns and will always welcome these high returns...as long as investors know that there will be bumps in the road too.





Marc said:


> My guess is that you are going to sales brokers who are paid a commission for selling you a product when what you are seeking is objective advice
> 
> There is no fiduciary standard in Ireland, as there is in the USA for example.
> 
> *Financial planners have to hold themselves to higher standards *and in my view one way is setting out clearly their investment philosophy


A lot of them don't though Marc. I've seen lots of cases of double commission plays from CFPs. In a bid of boost their number, the FPSB have also allowed tied agents to be CFPs. They eat what they kill and can only earn an income from selling products to people. It is near on impossible for someone to identify who is just going to try to flog them something and who is working on their behalf. The easiest way to do it is ask the advisor if they will work on a fee basis.


Steven
www.bluewaterfp.ie


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## Marc (12 May 2021)

Stephen you are absolutely correct it’s the payment mechanism that is to blame.

The Central Bank looked at this recently and under intense pressure from the financial services industry in Ireland and contrary to international regulatory standards didn’t ban commissions on the sale of investment products.

And only yesterday I met a doctor who was being pushed (not too strong a word) to buy an ARF against his long term interests









						Physician heal thyself - Everlake
					

The GMS Pension is administered by Mercer and most Doctors and GPs will contact Mercer for advice on their retirement options. We believe that such an important decision warrants objective Independent Financial Advice.




					globalwealth.ie


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## Steven Barrett (12 May 2021)

Marc said:


> Stephen you are absolutely correct it’s the payment mechanism that is to blame.
> 
> The Central Bank looked at this recently and under intense pressure from the financial services industry in Ireland and contrary to international regulatory standards didn’t ban commissions on the sale of investment products.
> 
> ...


Did a review recently and was asked to look at whether is was a good idea to transfer his DB benefits to a buy out bond. Upon looking into it, it was an old DB with indexation in retirement in the rules. If he went into a DC environment, he would have to get returns of 17% per annum to match what he was giving up. Yet lots of his colleagues did. And you get bet your bottom dollar that they got paid a hell of a lot more from the commission they earned to give bad advice than the fee I earned to save someone tens of thousands. 

The Central Bank needs to ban commissions on products. Simple

Steven
www.bluewaterfp.ie


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## Coffeeortea (12 May 2021)

Steven Barrett said:


> n that period, a global index of stocks is up 50% and the S&P 500 is up 53%. This is way above the long term average return that would be expected for an equity fund, but then, I don't make any predictions on returns and will always welcome these high returns...as long as investors know that there will be bumps in the road too.



Hi Stephen, Thankfully a good portion of my portfolio was able to partake in that gain after dropping earlier in the year. My Greenman fund is a small percentgae of my overall portfolio (about 9% from last update) and held in a pension so I dont pay 41% tax as someone mentioned. I'm aware of the leverage from the suitability document. This was explained to me along with with low rates this is locked into with the capacity for repayment. The 4 main tenants that  help fund these are the biggest retailers in Europe in the food sector, so unless we all stop eating they should pay the rent  I was pleased to see it do what the adviser said it would do over the last year. He is a CFP and looked after our family for years and came from a recommendation I saw on this page many years ago.


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