# What to do if building considering carbon neutral requirement by 2013



## z101 (1 Dec 2009)

As title suggests we are wondering what to do about the carbon neutral requirement which is been increased next year upto 2013. I assume if one is to build a house now they should make it carbon neutral as it will inevitably need to be anyway.
Build Cost is a big issue for us and I fear alot of the technology needed is expensive and probably in early days development wise. I believe there are SEI grants but what should people be looking at to make up these requirements? I like wood build houses but believe noise internal and external is an issue. I also believe we are well behind in Ireland than other EU countries, so is there any use in bringing in outside companies who are ahead of Irish suppliers? Would this drive up costs?
Any feedback welcome..Thanks.


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## onq (1 Dec 2009)

Kingspan showed their carbon neutral The Light House  in London a while back.

This showed that merely insulating and sealing isn't enough.

Here is an article you may find useful.

[broken link removed]

I share your concerns regarding wood houses.

I am also concerned with the contradictions inherent in the building regs as they are currently written.

Finally I am becoming more and more of the opinion that most people will simply not maintain their systems adequately - particularly the filters.

FWIW

ONQ.

[broken link removed]


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## z101 (1 Dec 2009)

Hi onq
In your key post you used the expression, 'timebomb waiting to go off'

Are these regulations effectively impossible. I am guessing the condradictions you refer to are making regulations impossible to concur with?
Whats is (or will be) the way forward with this?


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## onq (2 Dec 2009)

"Time Bomb" is a bit of hyperbole, but its basically common sense.

Local Authorities are obliged to inspect 12% of buildings. One eighth, that's all. We've seen roofs blowing off buildings because of poor design and detailing

I've yet to year of the HSA talking a self-builder to court for not complying with his HSA obligations as the Contractor.

The Part B and Part F discrepancies are potentially lethal

Some people will only service their septic tank when it begins to smell - wasn't that the reason they weren't allowed by the local authorities for years?

What makes the DOEHLG  think they'll service their filters in their new mech vent systems every three months?

Then there's the protection of a ventilation duct passing through a fire rated floor.

You'll hear a lot nowadays about the "life of buildings." Sixty years. Why is that? My block built house is fifty years old and is still going fine.

Is it the timber frames? Sixty Years? Tudor frames lasted hundreds of years.

But you see where I'm coming from?
People who think they're investing for life coming face to face with reality in 60 years time.

I find that quite frightening - do these 60-year buildings go quietly, in the night?
Over time, bit by bit, sagging like us humans?
Or do they collapse with a bang?
No one seems to know.

BTW, I'm more than delighted for people to contradict me and offer contrary advice - with proofs preferably 

FWIW

ONQ.


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## RKQ (2 Dec 2009)

When it comes to "Airtightness" & "carbon neutral" construction we are behind our European neighbours. Look to Sweden or Germany - they are years ahead of us and they have managed quite easily.

Do not fear the future or new technology. 
I agree if you use a new technology like MVHR then you must get used to changing or cleaning the filters. Its not a difficult job - I'd say if you have seen a dirty filter, its disgusting and difficult to forget. This vision would ensure regular cleaning.

Timber frame has been very popular in Scotland & England for decades. Its possible that there are timber frame houses over 60 years old, in the UK.

IMO the greatest sin is the Governments continued failure to train Certifiers ( Architectural Technicians, Engineers, Architects). This is left to the Certifier via Local Authority seminars, CPD, personal research & study, Homebond conferences etc.

For example, Airtightness is a Building Regulation now but not one Builder, Blocklayer or Carpenter has been trained by the Government. These individuals have been trained on site by the Certifiers. 
Who can say small domestic extensions comply with these Regulations if the works are not being inspected?


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## z101 (2 Dec 2009)

I imagine alot of this escapes alot of people who are building. It sounds like not only is the technology behind here but we dont even have the expertise to put it in place.
Will this see people going to places like sweden or germany to source not only product but the expertise to fit them, so as to fill these requirements? What should people do in the now?


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## onq (2 Dec 2009)

Ceatharlach said:


> I imagine alot of this escapes alot of people who are building. It sounds like not only is the technology behind here but we dont even have the expertise to put it in place.
> Will this see people going to places like sweden or germany to source not only product but the expertise to fit them, so as to fill these requirements? What should people do in the now?



I'm not suggesting Ireland is backward in this - far from it: the rate of chage of knowledge in Irish building is enormous and the building professionals are pacing it well enough.
For builders, the ground rules are changing so fast at a time when we are building so little that the normal route of percolation of knowledge down through the ranks cannot apply.
There will be little or no gradual take up of knowledge in the contruction sector because we're simply not building enough houses for enough bodies to work on to learn the new standards

For building professionals, the piecemeal legislative approach isn't useful in terms of construction or certification - too many slightly different standards to apply.
Where's the benefit in taking two turns of the crank legislation - its surely wiser to just adopt reach the Cabon Neutral standard and work to it across the board.

At Plan Expo 2009 I call on the DOEHLG to firstly adopt a definitive standard, and then to instruct one of these large six-figure-salaried Senior Grade 1 Civil Servants we hear so much about these days.
I asked that he/she be given the task of establishing a worked example taking account of all the building regulations on a simple building - like a house - this would have huge benefits for sel-builders.

That way we can all choose to either adopt said worked example as a way forward or choose another method, knowing how the various regulations must interact.
We'd all have a level playing field for whatever regs standards are finally adopted with the benefit of a well understood set of details for building work.

FWIW

ONQ.


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## onq (2 Dec 2009)

RKQ said:


> <snip>
> For example, Airtightness is a Building Regulation now but not one Builder, Blocklayer or Carpenter has been trained by the Government. These individuals have been trained on site by the Certifiers.
> Who can say small domestic extensions comply with these Regulations if the works are not being inspected?



Airtightness is one means of compliance, but it conflicts with the permanent ventilation requirement for habitable rooms under Part F of 6,500sqmm.

They are mutually exclusive and I agree with your comment and wish to state that the government have not done enough to prepare the industry bottom up.

They have merely issued top down demands in the form of revised building regulations which remain inconsistent to this day.

Its probably time I wrote a letter to the Minister to determine what his officer's position is.

I've left if for a while in deference to the whole Lisbon Treaty thing and the Green's internally difficult position.

FWIW

ONQ.


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## onq (2 Dec 2009)

Apropos of nothing but a brief review of how we got here, its a little bemusing too how fashion in the building standards change, isn't it.

We live in a reasonably well-designed and well-built 1960's house.
It had an open plan living room and warm air ducts under the fireplace and around and under the stairs, which distributed warm air to the bedrooms.
All the rooms had storey-height curtain rails which meant that if the house was used as intended, you would get through a lot of firewood, but you'd be very snug.

Since the Stardust, the great emphasis was on fire safety, so the idea of a design relying on wafting hot air around through open plan areas would not have a much appeal, particularly over three stories.
Insulation was put in cavities in walls, and was not expected from curtains: the attic was once again explored and converted.
Fire resisting construction and compartmentalised space planning were the order of the day, with big halls and rear wow factor conservatories.

Then for an oh-so-brief period [it seems now] we were preoccupied by the ozone layer, flourocarbons and acid rain, prompting the start of the green revolutions.
In the last few years we have seen rapid change riding roman on the twin steeds of sustainability and low carbon units.

<there's a Trekkie pun in there somewhere...>

We're only now catching our breath while wrapped in ever increasing layers of insulation, and we're told that's not enough, we need to be able to existing on no external power - carbon neutral buildings.

But now that people are asking technical questions, we're beginning to codify and better understand Building Physics.


People are wondering if the BER rating scheme should apply to older properties at all.
Former "experts" are finding out the truth behind the old saying that Lime Mortar needs to "breath" for a solid masonry building to stay healthy.
Laypeople are wondering if all this sealing is good for us as humans and whether hermetically sealed houses can accommodate two point four kids and their dogs without a huge diminution of quality of life.
Questions are being raised about our dependance on the hugely embedded energy products in the concrete industry and they're hitting back with titanium oxide admixtures that chemically "wash" carbon out of the air [where does it go, BTW?]
Those who study embedded energy are thinking that massively insulating a house now might be less beneficial to the planet that just using some process or fuel which actively traps carbon - one we may have to invent.
Over in the airline industry, arguments are being prepared about how all those smoke trails are actually cooling the planet [using the clear skies over America in the days after 9-11 to help form a baseline study!]
 For someone who's technicaly trained and who's spent his career dealing with such issues this might be an exciting time.
However I think there is a danger that laypersons are becoming confused.com with a disastrous set of end results in sight.

Freedom with no direction or oversight always leads to disaster - ask any Banker.
Wherever the construction industry goes from here, we're living in interesting times.

FWIW

ONQ.


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## z101 (2 Dec 2009)

If you were to ask John Gormley one key question about this what would it be?


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## onq (3 Dec 2009)

Dear John,

Is this about sustainability for Ireland or sustainability for the Green Party after Fianna Fáil.

ONQ.


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