# Cost of retrofitting a house to A energy rating



## Haille (26 Jan 2021)

I have a large 4 bedroom dormer bungalow built in 1989. I was wondering how I go about improving the energy rating to A standard.The cavity walls have 2 inch insulation, Attic is insulated.I have double glazed teak windows with oil fired heating and open fireplace with back boiler.As the front of the house is sandstone external insulation on the front is not an option,Though the back and sides of the house could be insulated externally. I also have the option of dry lining internally also.Was considering installing heat pump and maybe solar panels.Just wondering is it possible to bring this house to A level given that there is no floor insulation.If anybody has done a similiar job any advice with regards to the above.Can one combine external insulation with dry lining. ?Trying to figure estimated cost with use of possible grants.


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## aam514 (26 Jan 2021)

Have a look a SuperHomes.ie (I have no affiliation, just something I found)


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## Haille (26 Jan 2021)

Thanks


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## Micks'r (26 Jan 2021)

Haille said:


> I have a large 4 bedroom dormer bungalow built in 1989. I was wondering how I go about improving the energy rating to A standard.The cavity walls have 2 inch insulation, Attic is insulated.I have double glazed teak windows with oil fired heating and open fireplace with back boiler.As the front of the house is sandstone external insulation on the front is not an option,Though the back and sides of the house could be insulated externally. I also have the option of dry lining internally also.Was considering installing heat pump and maybe solar panels.Just wondering is it possible to bring this house to A level given that there is no floor insulation.If anybody has done a similiar job any advice with regards to the above.Can one combine external insulation with dry lining. ?Trying to figure estimated cost with use of possible grants.



Do you want to have an A rated house on paper or make your house much more comfortable and easier to heat ... given that you mention using a heat pump, I'm assuming the latter.

There are a number of things that you can do to move your house up on the BER scale towards an "A" rating but not necessarily make much of a difference to how easy it is to heat the house and this is especially true for dormers. So be careful with where you choose to invest. 

For example, dormers are notorious for excessive heat loss by convection (air leakage) and therefore no amount of extra insulation, whether external or internal, will address this significant heatloss mechanism, yet on paper it can improve the BER rating considerably.


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## Haille (26 Jan 2021)

Many thanks for that.While there are 2 big bedrooms upstairs.One of the bedrooms is not a conventional dormer room in that I have 4 block walls in one bedroom with very large window . The 2 nd bedroom is a conventional dormer with studded walls and side attic space which is a cold area.I have insulated this bedroom roof and the studded walls of the bedroom.It is the side storage space that is the problem.


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## Branz (26 Jan 2021)

EWI and IWI don't work well.
Why are the floors not insulated?
How do you know?
As noted earlier, bungalows are a ... to get right as a retro.
In round numbers, 80k, with maybe 1,800 savings based on the estimated improvement in U values and improved airtightness.

look at cases studies on the s homes site referenced earlier
Don't get fixated on grants, they don't benefit you.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (26 Jan 2021)

Moving from a D to an A rating means getting energy consumption down by 75% to 85%.

That's a lot.

There are (I believe) limits to what you can achieve unless it's new build.


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## Haille (26 Jan 2021)

Many thanks.Back in the late 1980’s floors were not insulated .It was a self build.The standard cavity wall insulation at the time was 1 and a half inches. My architect recommended 2 inch which is what I used.If only he had recommended proper insulation back then.


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## Leo (27 Jan 2021)

Find your house type on this guide and review the detail on the options available with projected costs and payback period. 

Note that while it may be possible to bring your existing house up to an A rating, it might cost so much you never recoup the expenditure in savings. A decent B might make a lot more financial sense in the long run.


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## Haille (27 Jan 2021)

Many thanks


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## Haille (27 Jan 2021)

Many thanks Leo for the above guide. A number of questions My house is an 1989 self build bungalow.There is a 2 inch insulation in the cavity wall.It was suggested in the guide to pump the remaining cavity with insulation and then add external insulation or dry lining on the inside.Which is best option? Is it best to get an overall survey of my house or should  I contact companies directly myself.As regards dry lining would it be better to get a local carpenter to do this rather than getting somebody suggested by surveyor .Would it work out cheaper.As I am retired I have time to make contacts myself directly


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## Coldwarrior (27 Jan 2021)

Haille said:


> Which is best option?


External is generally better, though more expensive. The main benefits are you don't lose interior space and (if installed correctly) there's less cold bridges leaking heat compared to internal insulation (though this may be less of a factor in a bungalow)


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## Coldwarrior (27 Jan 2021)

Haille said:


> As regards dry lining would it be better to get a local carpenter to do this rather than getting somebody suggested by surveyor


If the installer isn't very familiar with internal insulation and there's inadequate ventilation then dry lining can cause mold problems on the wall behind the dry lining, leading to poor air quality so I'd go with someone who installs internal insulation as their day job.


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## Micks'r (27 Jan 2021)

Coldwarrior said:


> External is generally better, though more expensive. The main benefits are you don't lose interior space and (if installed correctly) there's less cold bridges leaking heat compared to internal insulation (though this may be less of a factor in a bungalow)


Just to add to above
EWI is far superior to IWI
- no loss in thermal mass (important for low grade heating systems such as heat pumps)
- zero risk of interstitial condensation / mould within the wall build-up
- specified properly, it can greatly reduce heatloss through uninsulated concrete ground floors
- no impact to internal wall finishes / fittings etc

Needs to be done properly though to get full benefit and also best in conjunction with a window upgrade.


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## Micks'r (27 Jan 2021)

Haille said:


> Many thanks Leo for the above guide. A number of questions My house is an 1989 self build bungalow.There is a 2 inch insulation in the cavity wall.It was suggested in the guide to pump the remaining cavity with insulation and then add external insulation or dry lining on the inside.Which is best option? *Is it best to get an overall survey of my house* or should  I contact companies directly myself.As regards dry lining would it be better to get a local carpenter to do this rather than getting somebody suggested by surveyor .Would it work out cheaper.As I am retired I have time to make contacts myself directly


Without a shadow of doubt, it is best to get the survey done first. You could easily spend 30+k on so called "improvements" and not reap the benefit, especially on a dormer. I've seen it happen a lot. Make sure your surveyor is independent.


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## Leo (27 Jan 2021)

Haille said:


> As I am retired I have time to make contacts myself directly



Along with the above, there are various grants available including via the SEAI or your local authority (example).

The SEAI Deep Retrofit program looked great for significant jobs, but we're still waiting for the next iteration of that despite all the political talk of ambitious retrofit targets.


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## Cricketer (27 Jan 2021)

Micks'r said:


> Make sure your surveyor is independent.


Is there a register of quality, independent surveyors @Micks'r? What should I look for in a surveyor?


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## Micks'r (27 Jan 2021)

Cricketer said:


> 1. Is there a register of quality, independent surveyors @Micks'r?
> 2. What should I look for in a surveyor?


1. No, not that I'm aware of.
2. Qualifications (such as engineer, registered air tightness tester, passive house consultant for example). Experience in testing for air tightness, trained in use of thermal imaging equipment, in involvement in successful retrofit projects, in addressing the whole house as a system rather than discrete components, You are looking for somebody who can more or less guarantee that they can pinpoint & prioritise the weaknesses and where / how to invest in order to get the best bang for buck (not only financially but also comfort/wellbeing wise).


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## Micks'r (27 Jan 2021)

Leo said:


> Note that while it may be possible to bring your existing house up to an A rating, it might cost so much you never recoup the expenditure in savings. A decent B might make a lot more financial sense in the long run.


While I agree with the jist of this in pure financial terms and it is a good point but it's not apples to apples, there is another angle which I think is important to mention. Not all the benefits of a deep retrofit can be measured in euros and cents. I'm talking here about the real but unmeasurable comfort dividend to be enjoyed by doing a proper job.
When a house has poor heat retention properties, it is generally "under-heated" by the occupants because it is perceived to be wasteful, i.e. the house on average is generally on the cool side of comfortable and also the outside weather conditions are readily noticeable inside. On the other-hand, after a proper deep retrofit job, the house is generally always comfortable for very little energy input and the outside weather conditions are not felt inside. This benefit is real but not easily measured in euros / cents as payback.


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## Leo (28 Jan 2021)

Micks'r said:


> I'm talking here about the real but unmeasurable comfort dividend to be enjoyed by doing a proper job.



True, you can't put a value on smug, but it is important for people to understand that it is not always possible to achieve a payback, and the further you want to get towards an A1 on an old house, the more likely you are to be wasting money.



Micks'r said:


> When a house has poor heat retention properties, it is generally "under-heated" by the occupants because it is perceived to be wasteful, i.e. the house on average is generally on the cool side of comfortable and also the outside weather conditions are readily noticeable inside.



I currently live in a G rated house, I don't suffer in the cold because of some notion that heating is wasteful. If the OP brings the house up to a B standard, there should be no problems whatsoever in maintaining a comfortable environment.

The key point is knowing what you really want to achieve and when to stop. To go from a B to an A rating, the OP may have to spend another €20-30k, they may not get much return from that in terms of comfort, and the payback period could be 40 years or more depending on occupancy.

I'd advise anyone considering a deep retrofit to try seek advice from someone independent and who isn't more interested in making a sale.


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## jpd (28 Jan 2021)

Some people might put a monetary value on their efforts to save the planet and consider the extra € 20-30K well worth it in moral, if not monetary, terms


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## shweeney (28 Jan 2021)

Micks'r said:


> When a house has poor heat retention properties, it is generally "under-heated" by the occupants because it is perceived to be wasteful, i.e. the house on average is generally on the cool side of comfortable and also the outside weather conditions are readily noticeable inside. On the other-hand, after a proper deep retrofit job, the house is generally always comfortable for very little energy input and the outside weather conditions are not felt inside. This benefit is real but not easily measured in euros / cents as payback.



I believe this was one of the issues seen with the recent Deep Retrofit scheme - the monetary & CO2 savings weren't as high as expected as people who were previously walking around in jumpers and thermal socks, were now wearing t-shirts indoors and leaving the heating on for longer.


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## Leo (28 Jan 2021)

shweeney said:


> I believe this was one of the issues seen with the recent Deep Retrofit scheme - the monetary & CO2 savings weren't as high as expected as people who were previously walking around in jumpers and thermal socks, were now wearing t-shirts indoors and leaving the heating on for longer.



Another issue is in pre-Covid times, many houses were unoccupied for much of the day. So even in winter, heating was only on for a few hours in the evenings as traditional heating systems have fast heat up times. Upgrade those to use heat pump technology and the heating must be left on much longer to bring the house up to temperature.


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## Micks'r (28 Jan 2021)

Leo said:


> True, you can't put a value on smug, but it is important for people to understand that it is not always possible to achieve a payback, and the further you want to get towards an A1 on an old house, the more likely you are to be wasting money.


I really don't understand your comment about "smug".
I was just trying to point out that there is more to it than just payback. End of. 
That comment says more about you than me!


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## Micks'r (28 Jan 2021)

Leo said:


> I currently live in a G rated house, I don't suffer in the cold because of some notion that heating is wasteful. If the OP brings the house up to a B standard, there should be no problems whatsoever in maintaining a comfortable environment.
> 
> The key point is knowing what you really want to achieve and when to stop. To go from a B to an A rating, the OP may have to spend another €20-30k, they may not get much return from that in terms of comfort, and the payback period could be 40 years or more depending on occupancy.
> 
> I'd advise anyone considering a deep retrofit to try seek advice from someone independent and who isn't more interested in making a sale.


I think the key point is knowing what you will get. A lot of people have no problem in spending 30+k on a new car which will rapidly depreciate, the difference of course being that they can test drive a new car and know what they are buying. This isn't possible with a deep retrofit so is a lot more difficult to understand the quality of what you are buying.


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## Leo (28 Jan 2021)

Micks'r said:


> I think the key point is knowing what you will get. A lot of people have no problem in spending 30+k on a new car which will rapidly depreciate, the difference of course being that they can test drive a new car and know what they are buying. This isn't possible with a deep retrofit so is a lot more difficult to understand the quality of what you are buying.



True, but a car is tangible, you spend your money and you immediately get that shiny thing you spent your money on. Spend on on a deep retrofit and you pay a lot of money up front to have the same house, just slightly more comfortable with savings taking decades to achieve. We've been conditioned to value to immediate hit over delayed gratification.


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## Haille (28 Jan 2021)

Yes I think I will try and get an independent survey first.Difficult to find. I looked at Superhomes.ie who organize a complete package but wondering if the initial survey is really independent as they have a complete package. I also looked at An Post who it seems offer loans for retrofit, the scheme has the backing of the woman quantity surveyor who use to be on Room to Improve.The only problem is you cannot seem to access the info unless you avail of their loans.. May concentrate on insulation first before deciding on heat pump. We are both in our early 60's retired . We have the same oil burner dating back to 1989.It is still working at 90 % efficiency. Wondering if a heat pump will make the house much warmer? Maybe cheaper to run but as one would have to replace all radiators for heat pump it is a big outlay. Will remain open minded as our oil boiler will perhaps run out at some point. My original good plumber has a similiar oil boiler told me to ignore all the hype around condenser boilers as he has come across condenser oil boilers that have only lasted 10 years and not 31 years .


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## Cricketer (28 Jan 2021)

Haille said:


> We have the same oil burner dating back to 1989


I can trump that. Ours is mid-60s vintage and still going strong. All things considered, should I bother changing it at all?


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## Leo (28 Jan 2021)

Haille said:


> Wondering if a heat pump will make the house much warmer?



No, it won't. Only more insulation and better air-tightness will help a home retain more heat. If you don't have those at a level where your existing gas or oil boiler rarely needs to be on, a heat pump will cost you way more to run.


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## Micks'r (28 Jan 2021)

Leo said:


> No, it won't. Only more insulation and better air-tightness will help a home retain more heat. If you don't have those at a level where your existing gas or oil boiler rarely needs to be on, *a heat pump will cost you way more to run*.


and will not be up to the job during extreme bouts of weather


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## Haille (22 Feb 2021)

I have sent  e mails to a number of people looking for quotations for a full Technical Assessment  and air tightness test  to see if it is possible to bring the dwelling heat down to 2 Watts/Kelvi/m2. with a view if it is possible to install a heat pump. My house is a large 4 bed dormer bungalow with an adjacent granny flat and garage.I have only got 1 reply back so far from a person living 4 miles away. He quoted me €1000 +vat. Is this expensive? How long does the test take?  I am awaiting other replies.Just wondering what an average quotation is?


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## Micks'r (22 Feb 2021)

Haille said:


> I have sent  e mails to a number of people looking for quotations for a full Technical Assessment  and air tightness test  to see if it is possible to bring the dwelling heat down to 2 Watts/Kelvi/m2. with a view if it is possible to install a heat pump. My house is a large 4 bed dormer bungalow with an adjacent granny flat and garage.I have only got 1 reply back so far from a person living 4 miles away. *He quoted me €1000 +vat. Is this expensive?* How long does the test take?  I am awaiting other replies.Just wondering what an average quotation is?


Wow, thats quite expensive, imo. My surveys which include testing for airtightness take generally 6 hours from start to finish.


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## Pkmwgs (6 Mar 2021)

Hi hallie, i have a similar 4 dormer bungulow selfbuild at around 1998. I have slowly upgraded it. I installed a 6kw wind turbine about 13 years ago and used most of this energy for hot water. Then i installed 4 solar thermal tube panels. Very good input between march to september. Doubled up on floorjoists in attic and insulated to 300mm . Uped insulation in creep spaces and put new seals on my pvc double glazing. Then iretrofitted an mhrv system for better quality air. I removed open fire and installed a stove. I am lucky enough to be able to do it all myself, but it was hard work running everthing through existing house. It has made an enormous difference. I think you should definitely insulate really well first and then think about other technologies. Hope this long winded post is of use.


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## Haille (13 Mar 2021)

Many thanks Pkmwgs


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## oilmoney (31 Mar 2021)

@Micks'r I would be interested in contacting you about getting a survey done as you seem to talk a lot of sense on the topic here.  


Micks'r said:


> Wow, thats quite expensive, imo. My surveys which include testing for airtightness take generally 6 hours from start to finish.


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