# League of Ireland Football - Why don't you attend?



## The_Banker (28 Aug 2008)

Everyday day over the last 6 months we have heard about the financial trouble faced by League of Ireland football clubs. 
Dublin City and Kilkenny City have gone to the wall and a host of other clubs are in severe financial difficulty. These include Galway United, Waterford United, Cobh Ramblers, Sligo Rovers, Shelbourne and indeed my own club Cork City is now facing into the abyss of extinction.
There are all sorts of reasons for the financial failure of Irish clubs but ultimately it leads back to the lack of crowds at games.
People support GAA, Rugby and the Irish National soccer team in vast numbers but for some reason the crowds are just not there for League of Ireland football.
More Irish people support English Soccer Clubs and spent fortunes going for weekend soccer breaks to the likes of Old Trafford and Anfield yet cheer when the English National side is beaten.

Therefore, this question is aimed at sports followers on ABM. Why do you not support the LOI clubs? If the authorities that be understood why the Irish people are not supporting Irish domestic football then maybe they could do something about it.


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## briancbyrne (28 Aug 2008)

I find the quality and more so style of play very hard to watch


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## ClubMan (28 Aug 2008)

The_Banker said:


> Therefore, this question is aimed at sports followers on ABM. Why do you not support the LOI clubs?


 Some of us do!


briancbyrne said:


> I find the quality and more so style of play very hard to watch


When did you last attend?


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## MrMan (28 Aug 2008)

I support an english club side and don't watch loI soccer. I don't think the standard would bother me all that much cause i enjoy watching junior soccer, 6 aside anything but to support a LoI side I think it would have to be from my local area or at least away from the city. I think a few more rural clubs like a Clare/Tipp team would capture the imagination and take away the perception that it is basically a Dublin league.


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## ClubMan (28 Aug 2008)

That perception would be incorrect - only 4 of the 12 _Premier Division _and 2 of the 10 _First Division _clubs are _Dublin _based. Admittedly there are indeed large tracts of the country not represented in the _eircom League _at the moment.


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## The_Banker (28 Aug 2008)

ClubMan said:


> Some of us do!


 
Yes, I know your a supporter of the Bohs..!


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## ClubMan (28 Aug 2008)

I think that there are a few others too.


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## Welfarite (28 Aug 2008)

I was involved for a number of years with a LOI side on the administration end. While I am not in touch with current practices, based on my past experiences I would count the following as some of the reasons LOI football is not supported:

1. Lack of glamour
2. Lack of publicity
3. Lack of professional standards in administration.
4. Lack of facilities

Running a LOI club is like any other business. If one had to present a business plan to a bank, they would ensure that all the building blocks were in place. Few LOI clubs would tick all the boxes required to convince the bank that their "business" will be a success.

The OP says lack of crowds are ultimately the reason for financial failure of clubs. I disagree. Most successful football clubs do not rely on "gate money" as the mainstay for financing themselves.


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## Mpsox (28 Aug 2008)

I'm a Corkman living in Carlow who used to live in London and now lives in Carlow

Growing up I went to Ramblers or Flower Lodge on occassions, but living 20 miles from the city with a Dad who was not into soccer it was difficult

When I moved to Dublin I used to go to UCD on occassions, if the weather was good. Frankly the old Belfield was a a dump and was not an attraction for anyone to go and watch a game. Not sure what the new one is like

I don't go now as there are no clubs to go to in the Carlow region, simple as that. In addition, if you go outside the top clubs in the Premier division, from what I've seen of kildare and Wexford Ys, the standard is pretty poor, so why pay good money to stand in the rain watching bad football for clubs I have no affinitiy for or ties to.

However I am going to London on Sept 20th to watch a game. C'mon Leyton Orient !!!!!!!!!!!

And before anyone asks, that comes from living for 10 years within half a mile of the ground.


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## DavyJones (28 Aug 2008)

I don't follow English football, but have been drawn into Monday night football on RTE(atleast until the rugby season starts). Which I think will do great things for the game.


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## ClubMan (28 Aug 2008)

Welfarite said:


> I was involved for a number of years with a LOI side on the administration end. While I am not in touch with current practices, based on my past experiences I would count the following as some of the reasons LOI football is not supported:
> 
> 1. Lack of glamour


Bohs have had the _News of The World _dancers on the pitch at half time a few times this season in case that piques your interest - or anything else belonging to you! 


> Running a LOI club is like any other business. If one had to present a business plan to a bank, they would ensure that all the building blocks were in place. Few LOI clubs would tick all the boxes required to convince the bank that their "business" will be a success.


_Mick Wallace _(of _Wallace Construction _and _Wexford Youths_) spoke a lot of sense on _Newstalk _last night in saying that _eircom League _clubs really should have business plans, non football revenue streams and a budget making sure that they live within their means. 


> The OP says lack of crowds are ultimately the reason for financial failure of clubs. I disagree. Most successful football clubs do not rely on "gate money" as the mainstay for financing themselves.


Exactly.


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## MrMan (28 Aug 2008)

ClubMan said:


> That perception would be incorrect - only 4 of the 12 _Premier Division _and 2 of the 10 _First Division _clubs are _Dublin _based. Admittedly there are indeed large tracts of the country not represented in the _eircom League _at the moment.



I realise that and it more than likely has come from the success of the Dublin teams aswell. I do think people want to support locally and it is nice to go watch a match in the flesh and can be great for kids too but the biggest stumbling block i would see is lending support to your nearest team as they would most likely be a rival in another sport.


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## DavyJones (28 Aug 2008)

MrMan said:


> I realise that and it more than likely has come from the success of the Dublin teams aswell. I do think people want to support locally and it is nice to go watch a match in the flesh and can be great for kids too but the biggest stumbling block i would see is lending support to your nearest team as they would most likely be a rival in another sport.




What about Limerick 37 or FC?  (don't know if they dropped the 37 yet!)


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## ClubMan (28 Aug 2008)

MrMan said:


> I realise that and it more than likely has come from the success of the Dublin teams aswell.


None of the major competitions last year were won by _Dublin _teams:

_eircom League Premier Division Championship (Drogs), First Division Championship (Cobh), FAI Cup (Cork), FAI League Cup (Derry), Setanta Cup (Drogs) 
_


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## csirl (28 Aug 2008)

I go to the occasional LOI game. There are many reasons why a lot of people don’t. Game needs reform along the following lines:

1.      The FAI lacks professional organisation. Their officials may be full time and well paid, but as far as organisational ability goes, they lack a lot. The league has a very amateurism feel from an organisational point of view and could benefit from expertise from outside the FAI.

2.      Standard of players. Apparently the top clubs in LOI pay their players c.100-150k per annum. This equates to 200-250k per annum when you take into account that the income is tax free. There are a lot of Eastern European, Scandinavian and African full International players who would bite you hand off for this level of wage. How many of the Belgian players we saw playing Liverpool last night would be on this pay? Team managers need to consider whether or not they are getting good value for money for their wages. I’m not saying Irish players should all be replaced (on the contrary – see point 3), but if you are going to pay these wages, get the right players.

3.      Many clubs are in a boom bust cycle. They spend crazy money trying to win league, get promoted, qualify for Europe etc. and if the plan fails and sometimes when it doesn’t, they end up going bust. Teams would be better spending a more affordable amount of money and getting more value for their spend. Investing a lower amount in top quality coaching to develop local talent and spending the wage budget more wisely (see 2 above) would get better results long term.

4.      The fixtures are very very repetitive. Same small number of clubs playing same fixtures. Too many extra competitions i.e. Leinster senior cup, league cup etc. LOI would be better having just 1 division of 16-18 clubs with home and away fixtures. I understand why there is all this talk about trying to reduce the number in the top flight & have a higher standard of play, but there is a limit to what you can do with a small league. Playing the same teams week in week out is incestuous and doesn’t improve standards.

5.      They need to seriously consider advocating an All-Ireland league to build up a bigger critical mass. 

6.      The teams need to identify more with their local area. I get the impression that a lot of LOI clubs are sort of detached from their potential fan base.


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## MrMan (28 Aug 2008)

They are still 37 alright but I'm not from Limerick so tis hard to pick up some interest. i think when its more of a local thing you have a better chance of encouraging friends to go aswell and once you get a band of supporters going it would make for a good night out. To be honest I'd feel like a blow in at a Lim 37 game, I know that sounds stupid considering I follow a brit team, but thats kind of instilled in us from a young age.


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## Slaphead (28 Aug 2008)

I was allways a Utd fan and never had a local LoI side, being from Wexford and all. When we were kids we tried to have an intrest in Wateford Utd & Bray, we even we to see Kilkenny City a few times, which was tough for yella bellies but thats how desperate we were.
I moved back last summer after 11yrs abroad and while i had heard about the Wexford Youthsi didnt give it a whole lot of tought. I did planon going to a few games but i've enjoyed it so much ive now been at most home games and find myself more concerened about how they're getting on than Utd! Were 2nd last in div1 but loving every minute of it. I think the youths thing is unique though, what with it being local and amateur. Were in the league cup final now and i cant wait for it.

As for the standard of football ppl keep complaining about, rubbish. You'll see as entetaining football as 90% of the trash in the premiership in your local jnr league. I was planning on making my first trip to Old Trafford this season but now i dont think ill bother.


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## MrMan (28 Aug 2008)

ClubMan said:


> None of the major competitions last year were won by _Dublin _teams:
> 
> _eircom League Premier Division Championship (Drogs), First Division Championship (Cobh), FAI Cup (Cork), FAI League Cup (Derry), Setanta Cup (Drogs)
> _




Ok then traditionally sucessful, say to random punter 'name 3 LoI teams', pats, bohs and shamrock rovers will feature in most answers.


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## ClubMan (28 Aug 2008)

csirl said:


> Apparently the top clubs in LOI pay their players c.100-150k per annum. This equates to 200-250k per annum when you take into account that the income is tax free.



No it's not!


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## ClubMan (28 Aug 2008)

MrMan said:


> Ok then traditionally sucessful, say to random punter 'name 3 LoI teams', pats, bohs and shamrock rovers will feature in most answers.


Just to clarify - I don't disagree with you on the perception front. I'm just trying to balance some of the perceptions with actual facts.


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## csirl (28 Aug 2008)

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *csirl* http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?p=696428#post696428
> _Apparently the top clubs in LOI pay their players c.100-150k per annum. This equates to 200-250k per annum when you take into account that the income is tax free._
> 
> ...


 
It is tax free - professional sports people in Ireland are allowed to reclaim the tax on their salaries for up to 10 years. LOI soccer players are the biggest beneficiaries of this rule.

Ok I concede I may have got the maths wrong - more like 100-150k equates to 150-210k, but still very high wages.


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## Caveat (28 Aug 2008)

A mate goes to LOI matches regularly - the one refreshing aspect of the game, he says, is the general enthusiasm on the field and the relative lack of divers when compared with the premiership.


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## MrMan (28 Aug 2008)

ClubMan said:


> Just to clarify - I don't disagree with you on the perception front. I'm just trying to balance some of the perceptions with actual facts.



sorry, was in defensive mode.


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## MrMan (28 Aug 2008)

Caveat said:


> A mate goes to LOI matches regularly - the one refreshing aspect of the game, he says, is the general enthusiasm on the field and the relative lack of divers when compared with the premiership.



You sure its not Gaelic Football he was comparing with!


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## GON10 (28 Aug 2008)

Used to all the time when I was young and naive till I discovered the GAA


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## Sunny (28 Aug 2008)

Its not just soccer that struggles for punters through the gates. Its the same with every sport. As Irish people we love telling ourselves that we are the best supporters in the world but only when it suits us. Look at GAA. How many Championship games this year were sell outs? Alot of the provincial games held in provincial venues weren't close to being sold out so people can't blame the cost of travelling to Croke Park. Its not exactly a struggle to get a ticket to a Munster Magners league game either. Connaught rugby supporters marched in Dublin to save their team and yet if the half the amount of people who marched turned up to watch them, there wouldn't be a problem. 

If teams are looking for a template to copy on how to attract crowds, I would suggest they look at Leinster Rugby. I know they get alot of stick but they have gone from getting no-one through the door in Donnybrook to having close to full houses on freezing winter evenings. They turned it into a social occasion and have used clever marketing to sell their product. I have 4 friends who had no interest in rugby up to two years ago but are now season ticket holders. They still know nothing about the rugby though!


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## thomasmc01 (28 Aug 2008)

are we suffering from proximity to uk, with any above average irish player aspiring to playing in either scotland or english league. question..would irish players settle for a chance in say the 1st. or even 2nd. division in england against a premier league spot here..more sure of income, better chance of being spotted, better buzz etc..because of this talent drain i personally find the quality of the game poor here. it is weird to say that i have been at more games in manchester and london than i have in terryland in galway where i live, its a pity....oh and heres a controversial one for ya..imagine (please dont hurt me) if hurling and gaelic football didnt exist...how good would soccer be then both club and country, how better would the olympic team be, imagine our rugby team then...we are almost unique in one way that the vast majority of our sports people play sport hardly known outside the country...so internationally we probably should be quite proud..probably


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## DavyJones (28 Aug 2008)

Sunny said:


> If teams are looking for a template to copy on how to attract crowds, I would suggest they look at Leinster Rugby. I know they get alot of stick but they have gone from getting no-one through the door in Donnybrook to having close to full houses on freezing winter evenings. They turned it into a social occasion and have used clever marketing to sell their product. I have 4 friends who had no interest in rugby up to two years ago but are now season ticket holders. They still know nothing about the rugby though!



Imagine what it would be like if they ever won anything of worth . 

I do think rugby is different to soccer as most national players play for home teams.


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## ClubMan (28 Aug 2008)

csirl said:


> It is tax free - professional sports people in Ireland are allowed to reclaim the tax on their salaries for up to 10 years. LOI soccer players are the biggest beneficiaries of this rule.


*Some *_eL _players will be able to avail of this but not all. Not all _eL _players are full time professionals for a start. To  say that _eL _player wages are tax free is simply wrong. Players must pay their tax on an ongoing basis as normal. *Some *of them may eventually qualify for a tax refund under the scheme mentioned above.


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## Sunny (28 Aug 2008)

DavyJones said:


> I do think rugby is different to soccer as most national players play for home teams.


 
Good point. Maybe there is a lesson there. Instead of calling on players playing below the Championship in England or not playing at all in some cases, domestic based players should be used. It would increase the profile of the domestic game if nothing else.


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## MrMan (28 Aug 2008)

Sunny said:


> Good point. Maybe there is a lesson there. Instead of calling on players playing below the Championship in England or not playing at all in some cases, domestic based players should be used. It would increase the profile of the domestic game if nothing else.



The other difference is look at how well the home teams have done in rugby, most notably munster. Its difficult to take a uniform approach to sports. Just look at soccer in the most basic form here, junior. In Tipp and clare where I played pitches were and still are fields hired from farmers generally not very suitable for games, little or no changing facilities and very little back up from the county boards. i remember us getting fined for not having rope erected around the perimiter of the pitch (to hold back the crowds). Things like that aren't very progressive and don't help clubs stay going or get off the ground. I think a good junior league structure would filter through to better support for the LoI.


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## csirl (28 Aug 2008)

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *csirl* http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?p=696441#post696441
> _It is tax free - professional sports people in Ireland are allowed to reclaim the tax on their salaries for up to 10 years. LOI soccer players are the biggest beneficiaries of this rule._
> 
> *Some *_eL _players will be able to avail of this but not all. Not all _eL _players are full time professionals for a start. To say that _eL _player wages are tax free is simply wrong. Players must pay their tax on an ongoing basis as normal. *Some *of them may eventually qualify for a tax refund under the scheme mentioned above.


 
ALL LOI players, including part-timers, can claim the refund of their tax. The only way wages would not be tax free is if the player plays more than 10 seasons. And in such cases, tax refund covers the 10 years in which the player received the highest salary. Like most sports, only a small minority of players would spend more than 10 years in the Eircom League. Time spent playing professionally in other countries does not count towards the 10 years - only time playing in Eircom League.

The impact of this should not be underestimated - up to 41% of gross salary refunded - gives LOI clubs a huge advantage over similar sized clubs in other countries when signing players.


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## NickyK (28 Aug 2008)

I used to always go but stopped a few years back. The year after Waterford were beaten in the Cup Final. We had a great team, Daryl Murphy, Rennie, Frosty etc. I went to the first match of the season and prices had gone from 10 euro to 15 to sit in the stand.
A bit OTT and crowds went from 2000 @ 10 euro to 200 @ 15. Ever since then WUFC has gone from bad to worse.


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## csirl (28 Aug 2008)

> I used to always go but stopped a few years back. The year after Waterford were beaten in the Cup Final. We had a great team, Daryl Murphy, Rennie, Frosty etc. I went to the first match of the season and prices had gone from 10 euro to 15 to sit in the stand.
> A bit OTT and crowds went from 2000 @ 10 euro to 200 @ 15. Ever since then WUFC has gone from bad to worse.


 
Very good point - teams can be short sighted when it comes to gate prices.

While reducing the price will reduce the take at the turnstyles, this can be more than compensated by with increased sales of programmes, merchandise, food etc. and increased advertising revenue from sponsors.


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## Jock04 (28 Aug 2008)

This is something I've always felt strongly about.

Some very good points have already been made, re pricing, alternative sports etc. But to me, the biggest hurdle is Irish soccer fans generally looking for instant success. There seems to be no kudos in telling your mates on a Monday morning about how good/bad/indifferent your favourite Irish team were, it's all about how you flew to Manchester or London to watch the big boys (or more likely, watched them on Sky Sports).

Surely at least half a dozen clubs here could attract crowds of 20K + for their home matches? And if you could offer half-decent extras like food & drink, programmes etc, that would be a very respectable income. 2 to 3 years of that level of income could see Irish clubs buying in a decent quality of player, 4 to 5 years could see at least a decent UEFA Cup run....maybe even qualification to the Champions League! 
Yes, it really could happen. If Celtic & Rangers can generate that level of income, attract quality(ish) players & compete on te European stage, I really can't see how Ireland couldn't grow at least 1 club of a similar standing.
The main barrier I can see to this is impatience for the glory nights from the supporters. But I really don't think it would take too long before some of the really big clubs were coming here to play on a regular basis. It could have been Bohs making Liverpool struggle last night, and soccer fans from all over the island would have wanted to be there.

I think there's probably an issue too, in that a lot of the population have relocated elsewhere in Ireland for work reasons. They can still go & see their county at Croker once a year (well, some of them!) but they'll be damned if they'll put their hand in their pockets to support a soccer team from Dublin/Galway/Cork/wherever they call home now. And God forbid you might follow a team not from your home town whether you still live there or not. The Old Firm in Scotland have thrived because most of the country will get behind one of them, even if the fans may have a soft spot for their local team too.
Money will bring success, support Irish football!


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## TarfHead (28 Aug 2008)

A few years ago or more, my brother persuaded me to join him at a Shelbourne V Derry FAI Cup semi-final in Tolka Park.

The match ended 0-0 and there were a total of 3 corners in the game.

Never again


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## MrMan (28 Aug 2008)

Ya corners are what its all about!


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## RMCF (28 Aug 2008)

As a season ticket holder for an EL club, I know where the OP is coming from.

I love watching live football, and I really enjoy the social side of attending your local team for a home game.

I will admit that sometimes the football is poor, but it can also be very good. I am realistic and know that I will see better skill levels from the likes of Arsenal, Utd, Real Madrid, Barca, Milan, Munich etc, but hey these guys are on £50k - £130K PER WEEK.

And believe me, so many of the English Premiership games now bore me senseless (you see I don't believe the Sky hype when they say that every game is great, especially when its rubbish). If you watch football a lot (be it Eircom League, Serie A, EPL, La Liga etc) then the proportion of good good/excellent games to the number shown is very low. I have watched so many awful Liverpool v Man Utd or Chelsea v Liverpool games that I never get excited any more.

I do have a lot of friends who would ask me "why do you go watch that rubbish" - but thats only their opinion and I have seen some fantastic games over recent years in the EL. And its so sad to see local bars packed to bursting point when Liverpool play Man Utd, and the passion that these fans have for their football, well English football anyway. And they then HATE England so much its almost laughable.

To finish on, I think the problem we have here is Ireland is our love of English/Scottish football. It is so ingrained in our culture now its hard to shift. It will be handed down from father to sons and it will continue. Plus our football is not seen as sexy. The players are obviously not as good but they are paid so much less than the competition. And I would agree that are facilities are not good, and people these days are very discerning and will not go and sit/stand in the rain. They expect the best for their money.


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## Rovers1901 (29 Aug 2008)

There's a number of problems with the LOI and people's attitudes to it and I honestly don't know how some of them are ever going to be addressed.

The LOI clubs & the FAI can do their bit by investing in facilites (stadia / training facilities / youth set ups) etc and by marketing the product a lot better (simple things like making sure the TV gantry faces the stand that is full rather than the one that is empty) and by involving local communities a lot more and identifying with their communties a lot more, something which was sadly lacking until recently. It should be a stated goal of the FAI that all u21 international players ply their trade in Ireland. It's embarassing that even our u17s are made up of foreign based players.

As for the Irish "sporting" public.... I honestly don't know if any of the above would make a blind bit of difference. A number of generations have been completly lost to LOI football and there's probably no getting them back. The tired old "football's rubbish/ how can you watch that sh*te" cliche will always be thrown out by them no matter what. And guess what, I agree that compared to the standard in the Premiership the standard would not be as high. It's obvious that it couldn't be. But being a football fan is not about deciding to follow Utd becuase they're good, it's about identity and passion and pride. That's why they're called MANCHESTER utd or Liverpool or whatever. I'm not from Manchester or Turin or Madrid, I'm from Dublin so my football club is from my town in my country and while we might never win the European Cup, at least when we do play in Europe we'll be representing my town and my country and most of all MY CLUB. I won't have native Mancunians/Scousers/Cockneys making snide remarks about Paddy blow ins (and they do...read their fanzines/message boards).

The LOI needs to be revitalised and the recent (and no doubt there's more to come) upheavals in club finances might be the wake up call to clubs and players to sort their acts out as regards wages and general spending. That's what I hope anyway and an All Ireland League a few years down the road could be a real shot in the arm too.

But depressing things like Cork filling Turners Cross last year for the visit if Sunderland and only adding a couple of hundred to their gate when the news broke of their examinership makes me wonder what's the point.


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## ubiquitous (29 Aug 2008)

Sunny said:


> Its not just soccer that struggles for punters through the gates. Its the same with every sport. As Irish people we love telling ourselves that we are the best supporters in the world but only when it suits us. Look at GAA. How many Championship games this year were sell outs? Alot of the provincial games held in provincial venues weren't close to being sold out so people can't blame the cost of travelling to Croke Park. Its not exactly a struggle to get a ticket to a Munster Magners league game either.



I think you're being unduly negative. 20,000 would be a pretty standard attendance at most meaningful provincial championship games this year (apart from finals that attract much more). In many cases, this represents a substantial share of the total population (and in Ulster the GAA population, as it is delicately termed) within the competing counties.


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## MrMan (29 Aug 2008)

> But being a football fan is not about deciding to follow Utd becuase they're good, it's about identity and passion and pride. That's why they're called MANCHESTER utd or Liverpool or whatever. I'm not from Manchester or Turin or Madrid, I'm from Dublin so my football club is from my town in my country and while we might never win the European Cup, at least when we do play in Europe we'll be representing my town and my country and most of all MY CLUB.


Some people follow teams based on success there's no denying that but the majority of 30 somethings that follow an English team have been doing so since the early 80's when madia exposure wasn't major and united weren't the all conquering team they are now. Your point is lost on those that don't have a local team, I am far more comfortable cheering on a team across the water than I would a Dub or Limerick team. I would be as much a blow in to St Pats as I would united or Liverpool. I also think that the 'ye support english teams but not england' argument is the LoI followers version of 'how do ye watch that crap'. 
If you want things to be so local then surely your team should also only field local players so that your team can represent your town and your country.



> I won't have native Mancunians/Scousers/Cockneys making snide remarks about Paddy blow ins (and they do...read their fanzines/message boards).



Supporters can be narrow minded in every country.


The LoI won't improve by taking pot shots at supporters that follow teams abroad, they need to find ways of making them duel supporters and get them to the grounds, funnily enough a recession might be the best time for it. If the teams price their gates right they might start encouraging people out of cheap curiousity.


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## Sunny (29 Aug 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> I think you're being unduly negative. 20,000 would be a pretty standard attendance at most meaningful provincial championship games this year (apart from finals that attract much more). In many cases, this represents a substantial share of the total population (and in Ulster the GAA population, as it is delicately termed) within the competing counties.


 
I am not denying that they still get decent crowds for the Championship games (I won't mention league attendances) but the fact remains that very few GAA games apart from the All Ireland Finals and Dublin games are sell outs. 22,000 people attended the Munster semi-final between Cork and Kerry in Pairc Ui Chaoimh. That was in their own backyard. Put them two teams in Croke Park on All Ireland Final day and they would be giving out about lack of tickets in a 80,000 stadium. 

Its not a criticism of the GAA, it is a criticism about the majority of the Irish sporting public. We all love to show our support but only when it suits us.


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## z106 (29 Aug 2008)

Teh league of ireland isn't sexy enough.

That's teh main reason I reckon.


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## micmclo (29 Aug 2008)

I don’t realy have all the details but I have heard that greyhound racing in Ireland had poor attendances for a long time. Probably had a negative image too, as being the preserve of hard-core gamblers.
They spent huge money on improving facilties, the racetrack in Galway for example is fantastic!
You can have a meal, a few drinks and a few bets all in a very enjoyable evening. I’m sure the FAI could learn something from Bord na gCon

Football clubs are selling a product after all. The dedicated fans will have no problems going to dodgy facilites but it’s going to be hard to attract new supporters. 

Maybe then need to try more marketing approaches like giving a free tickets to every household in the area for a pre-season game. Let them meet the players or ask questions.

I don’t know much about marketing but they definitely don’t want to do the same as the publicans do. Raise prices and sit back and complain about poor business but never try something new.



qwertyuiop said:


> Teh league of ireland isn't sexy enough.
> 
> That's teh main reason I reckon.


 
Sums it up realy


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## ubiquitous (29 Aug 2008)

Sunny said:


> Its not a criticism of the GAA, it is a criticism about the majority of the Irish sporting public. We all love to show our support but only when it suits us.



I think you will find the same applies in other countries. Btw, there's no shame in showing our support when it suits us. The days when men could routinely abandon their wives and families for days/weekends on end, to go to matches is long gone and no harm.


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## Sunny (29 Aug 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> I think you will find the same applies in other countries. Btw, there's no shame in showing our support when it suits us. The days when men could routinely abandon their wives and families for days/weekends on end, to go to matches is long gone and no harm.


 
I am sure it is but other supporters don't try and bask in the glory of being called the best supporters in the world in the way that we do. 

I don't get your last comment. Somebody popping down to their local LOI or GAA game at the weekend is guilty of abandoning their families? Thats a ridiculous comment


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## Rovers1901 (29 Aug 2008)

Mr Man, my comments were directed primarily at those from urban areas which do have a LOI alternative and most of our major urban areas have longstanding traditional clubs- Dublin, Waterford, Sligo, Derry, Dundalk,Limerick, Athlone, the various incarnations of Cork etc. I accept your point about someone from an area that doesn't have a club being consdiered a blow in if they were to simply adopt another club....BUT this is a problem common to every country I would say. Only in Ireland does the "blow in" adopt a foreign club with such gusto as here in Ireland.

As for the local thing, I was talking about identifying with your club not the players. I don't care if they're from Mongolia or even Cork....

I was a kid in the 80s and the exposure to English/Scottish football was, relatively speaking, just as great: it was on TV, all over the papers and the only football magazines that I would have bought would have been Shoot etc.

Little things like the RTE news announcing the results of English/Scottish football before mentioning the LOI is what really gets me down. Our international side will never prosper properly unless we can sustain a successful league relative to our size. 

We're a joke.


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## csirl (29 Aug 2008)

> Originally Posted by *ubiquitous* http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?p=696959#post696959
> _I think you're being unduly negative. 20,000 would be a pretty standard attendance at most meaningful provincial championship games this year (apart from finals that attract much more). In many cases, this represents a substantial share of the total population (and in Ulster the GAA population, as it is delicately termed) within the competing counties._


 
GAA teams play only a handful of championship games per season. A LOI team plays 40+ games a year in various competitions, so the support is more thinly spread over a greater number of games. Statistics of total annual attendance are more meaningful.

e.g. a LOI team that averages 5k for 20 home games = 100,000 in total has a higher annual attendance that e.g. a GAA team that averages 20k for 4 home games.


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## Sunny (29 Aug 2008)

By the way, Pats drawing AC Milan in the UEFA cup draw today wouldn't do the league any harm either!


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## ubiquitous (29 Aug 2008)

csirl said:


> GAA teams play only a handful of championship games per season. A LOI team plays 40+ games a year in various competitions, so the support is more thinly spread over a greater number of games. Statistics of total annual attendance are more meaningful.
> 
> e.g. a LOI team that averages 5k for 20 home games = 100,000 in total has a higher annual attendance that e.g. a GAA team that averages 20k for 4 home games.




I didn't dispute that. What you say supports my point: sports attendances in this country are quite respectable, given our small population. I merely used the GAA as an example.




Sunny said:


> I am sure it is but other supporters don't try and bask in the glory of being called the best supporters in the world in the way that we do.



How many Irish people do you know who really "bask in the glory of being called the best supporters in the world"? You might hear this sort of drivel on RTE, that doesn't mean its true, or it even means anything. And how do you know that other nations don't go on and on with similar drivel?


Sunny said:


> I don't get your last comment. Somebody popping down to their local LOI or GAA game at the weekend is guilty of abandoning their families? Thats a ridiculous comment



I didn't say that. I was merely responding to your criticism of supporters who only "support when it suits them". 

What I said that was people who may be fanatical supporters of a particular team or sport may not be able to attend many games, for a variety of reasons, mainly kids & family. Their infrequent attendance does not mean that they are are not supporters.


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## ClubMan (29 Aug 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> I think you will find the same applies in other countries. Btw, there's no shame in showing our support when it suits us. The days when men could routinely abandon their wives and families for days/weekends on end, to go to matches is long gone and no harm.


In my experience plenty of females attend _eL _games too you know. I would imagine that the same applies to _GAA_, rugby etc. events?


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## ClubMan (29 Aug 2008)

csirl said:


> e.g. a LOI team that averages 5k for 20 home games = 100,000 in total has a higher annual attendance that e.g. a GAA team that averages 20k for 4 home games.


I don't think that *ANY *eL club averages 5K at games on a regular basis! _Cork _and _Derry _might come close from time to time. _Bohs _would probably be next but only when we're doing well (and even then there were only about 2K at at the _Bohs v Drogs _league game last Tuesday).


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## ubiquitous (29 Aug 2008)

ClubMan said:


> In my experience plenty of females attend _eL _games too you know. I would imagine that the same applies to _GAA_, rugby etc. events?



Yes, but 20 or 30 years ago it was quite common for married men to make a point of attending every match, fleadh cheoil, agricultural show, cockfight etc because their wives were at home patiently minding a clutch of children. In contrast, the poor wives rarely got out of the house, except to Mass and Bingo. (If you ever look at the crowd scenes in the old All Ireland Gold games from the 70s & 80s on TG4, there is a noticeable preponderance of males, usually with Sunday suits and furry caps  )

In the meantime, times have changed and today's fathers have more responsibilities at home than many of their own dads had. Hence less of them are getting to matches or other outings week-in-week-out.


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## MrMan (29 Aug 2008)

> Only in Ireland does the "blow in" adopt a foreign club with such gusto as here in Ireland.



Well if you notice the number of united jerseys around the world plus the following of the premier league in scandanavia, asia, rest of europe I would say that the level of support is pretty widespread for 'blow ins'. 



> Our international side will never prosper properly unless we can sustain a successful league relative to our size


I don't see the connection here, surely a nation of our size can't sustain a league that will produce and keep international class players. Our international side hasn't faired all that badly in the last 20 years to be fair


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## Rovers1901 (29 Aug 2008)

My point is not that the LOI will ever be of a standard capable of retaining all our international players, my point is that we should have a league of sufficient financial and professional attraction that players choose to stay here until they are ready to make the step up to the bigger leagues. Only the very best players should have to go to England ie the truely world class.

A 15 year old should be able to stay in Ireland and be trained by Irish coaches with Irish clubs and then if he is truely decent the bigger clubs will step in and pay the money and Irish football will benefit.

People in the rest of Europe (ie Nordic countries, Holland etc) have a big interest in the English football BUT they actively support their local clubs. Compare the crowds at a Stockholm derby match with a Dublin derby match.

WTF is wrong with us that we can't support our own league as well as having an interest in the bigger leagues?


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## The_Banker (29 Aug 2008)

Sunny said:


> By the way, Pats drawing AC Milan in the UEFA cup draw today wouldn't do the league any harm either!


 
Pats got Hertha Berlin.

This may not be a big enough draw to ensure a bumper crowd.


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## Rovers1901 (29 Aug 2008)

The_Banker said:


> Pats got Hertha Berlin.
> 
> This may not be a big enough draw to ensure a bumper crowd.



No doubt if they drew Portsmouth they would have packed it out!!

Tough draw for Pats when you see some of the other teams left. They don't really stand any chance of beating Hertha over two legs but should get decent TV money from the German stations.


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## csirl (29 Aug 2008)

> A 15 year old should be able to stay in Ireland and be trained by Irish coaches with Irish clubs and then if he is truely decent the bigger clubs will step in and pay the money and Irish football will benefit.


 
Well said. We still have too many teenagers going to Britain, many to teams that arent even Premiership level. LOI should be capitalising on the number of LOI players who have transferred to bigger clubs in recent years having served their apprenticeships in the LOI. They should be trying to persuade underage team managers and parents that their sons would be much better and happier playing in the LOI in their late teens and then making the move abroad if they are good enough. Playing in the LOI is no longer a barrier to getting into the Premiership and its possible that it may be more beneficial than playing for the reserves or youth team of some lower league English team.


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## MrMan (29 Aug 2008)

csirl said:


> Well said. We still have too many teenagers going to Britain, many to teams that arent even Premiership level. LOI should be capitalising on the number of LOI players who have transferred to bigger clubs in recent years having served their apprenticeships in the LOI. They should be trying to persuade underage team managers and parents that their sons would be much better and happier playing in the LOI in their late teens and then making the move abroad if they are good enough. Playing in the LOI is no longer a barrier to getting into the Premiership and its possible that it may be more beneficial than playing for the reserves or youth team of some lower league English team.



They could also look at the loan deals that the top clubs use when 'blooding' youngsters. Would it be good if we could raise our level/profile so that the premier teams saw the LoI as a good base for some of their younger players to get a season of playing out of and possibly still pay their wages. United send players to antwerp in belgium and to lower divisions in england so maybe it could be done here aswell.


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## Betsy Og (29 Aug 2008)

To paraphrase Mrs. Doyle and the pensioners on the "terrace" in the Fr. Ted Over 75 tournament.

I dont attend  ....... because ......... wait for it.......

Its sh1t ..Ahhhhhhh

Ok, that was a very immature comment but I'm in giddy Friday mode. However, like it or not, thats what most Irish people think. I used to go to a few Cork City games and enjoyed them, I no longer live there or where they play (i.e. not living in Dublin, Derry etc.). I was saddened to hear they are in trouble.

I havent read the rest of the thread but I recently read an article in the Indo that basically said that most clubs were living in fantasy land paying wages they cant support. Ironically enough Cork City were top with average home crowd of (if I recall correct) 13,000 whereas nearly all others were in the 2k to 6k bracket. So I think clubs need to cut their cloth to measure - the 'build it and they will come' strategy doesnt seem to be working. I'm not a soccer man in general, dont even have a particular Premier league team though have a general interest in the league, but I do think its a pity that, for example, Cork is packed with fanatical Man U supporters who wouldnt cross the road to watch Cork City.


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## MrMan (29 Aug 2008)

> but I do think its a pity that, for example, Cork is packed with fanatical Man U supporters who wouldnt cross the road to watch Cork City.



I suppose to look at it in a wider context people see it as entertainment and they pay for the level of entertainment they want. Going to old trafford etc is a weekend away a bit of an experience so people might think that is worth it. To suggest we should plug into the irish soccer scene for some form of loyalty could extend to going to the cinema to watch Irish movies only, only having the irish tv stations at home which would boost ratings and prob feed back into more homegrown talent. The thing is we have our hard earned cash and we want value for money, until the LoI can properly market a product that offers the more laid back supporter value it wont really kick on at all. And going by recent revelations on the financial side the LoI seems to be going backwards if anything.


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## csirl (29 Aug 2008)

This may seem contraversial, but another way of improving domestic soccer would be to have Ireland join with some other small western European countries to have a combined top division.

UEFA are the biggest barrier to this - have a thing about domestic leagues having to be based in 1 country only. This perpetuates the strenght of English, Spanish & Italian football and is biased against small and medium sized countries. If you got all the small countries in Europe and aggregated them into bigger leagues, then these bigger leagues could be a good as the Premiership. Champions League could be the top teams in each of these bigger leagues. The classic example is why isnt there a Scandanavian League instead of leagues in the individual nordic countries?

An appropriate league for us might be with Northern Ireland, Scotland, Belgium, Luxembourg and Netherlands with each getting a pro-rata number of teams in a 20 team league. Would mean Ireland would have 2-3 genuinely world class teams. 

I dont think FIFA would have any objections, they've already done this in Australia/New Zealand. 

With modern cheap air travel, it should be possible. A sample "Atlantic League" could be (for demonstration purposes - I may be wrong on who the best teams are in each country).

Netherlands: Ajax, PSV, Rotterdam, Utrecht, Vitesse Arnham, Feyanoord.
Belgium: Anderlecht, Brugges, S. Liege, Mechelen,
Luxembourg: 1 team based in Luxembourg city.
Scotland: Celtic, Rangers, Hearts, Aberdeen, Dundee Utd.
N. Ireland: Linfield.
Ireland: 2 x Dublin teams plus Cork City.


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## micmclo (30 Aug 2008)

csirl said:


> UEFA are the biggest barrier to this - have a thing about domestic leagues having to be based in 1 country only. This perpetuates the strenght of English, Spanish & Italian football and is biased against small and medium sized countries.



Cardiff, Swansea and Wrexham are Welsh teams and they play English teams ever week


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## ClubMan (30 Aug 2008)

Er - or closer to home: _Derry City _in the _eircom League_?

Or _Monaco _in the _French League_.


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