# Termination of tenancy and the Private Residential Tenancy Act 2004



## modestus (14 Jun 2005)

The situation with regard to the Private Residential Tenancies Board is a total mess as they have not yet managed to regiter Landlords not cash the fees paid to them last December 2004.What does a Landlrd do if he is bona fide selling the property and has given the correct legal notice to terminate the tenancy and the tenants elect to go to the PTRB purely as a delaying tactic -the mess could go an for months and lead to chaos 
The PTRB are so inefficient it would take 12 months to "legally" get the nod to remove the tenants.
I think from a practical and reasonable point of view if the proper notice has been served change the locks and take your chance of being sued for Forcible Entry /Trespass 
I would think this is now becoming a major issue with tenants and I would be greatful for the views of other Landlords on the matter


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## Open_Window (14 Jun 2005)

To be honest, thats life or more ingrossingly, the comprimise this givernemnt is so good a formulating. 

You have to wait 8 months in Dublin for a driving test, thats cost you money on the higher insurance.. what can you do?

People can wait over 10 years on the housing list and get nothing.

You might have to spend 5 years saving for a deposit, while paying rent jsut to buy a place, what can you do.. the prices go up, the rent goes up and you save less and less if your wages don't go up as fast (wages in Ireland have not risen anything near as fast as house prices or rental cost fact!)

So to be honest, you have little to compalin about, be glad you are part of the landed classes.

Enjoy your two gaffs! Why not use one as a holiday home ;-)


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## delgirl (15 Jun 2005)

Agree with you modestus - it's a tricky situation.  Although, tenants have so many rights anyway, irrespective of whether the PRTB is functioning efficiently or not.

If a tenant refuses to move out after you've given notice, AFAIK you have to go get a court order and cannot change the locks or remove their property from the house.

I currently have someone in a property who was let in by the tenants on a 'short term, I have nowhere to live basis' and who is now terrorising the legal tenants and extorting money from them and I can't get him out!  My solicitor tells me I have to go to court even though this man is not even on the lease (I would have thought that he had no legal right to stay there) and was allowed to live there temporarily.

I'm going to lose my valued tenants if I can't get this man out as they're terrified of him and at the same time, they won't let me involve the Gardai as they've been threatened with violence if they tell anyone, including me!

I ran it by the Guards and they are telling me it's a civil matter and they can't get involved.  

So whose house is it anyway???


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## Purple (15 Jun 2005)

If a tenant doesn't want to move out the best thing to do is to offer to pay them off. It will cost you less in the long run than involving the courts and paying a solicitor and it taking two or three years to get your property back.
Offer him a few grand to shag off and see what he says.
The PRTB is a joke, another waste of taxpayer’s money. There are plenty of laws to protect the rights of a tenant, and rightly so. 
Just ask yourself how many court orders, how much time and how much money it would take to get a gang of bailiffs or Guards or whoever to come with a court order to smash the door in and carry the chap out kicking and screaming. Forget about the legal system and see what it will take to get him out. Don't do anything illegal mind you!


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## delgirl (15 Jun 2005)

> If a tenant doesn't want to move out the best thing to do is to offer to pay them off.


Never occurred to me to pay someone to leave a property - surely this would encourage others to do the same thing?  Maybe he'd do it again to the next landlord and the next...


> It will cost you less in the long run than involving the courts and paying a solicitor and it taking two or three years to get your property back.


Understand where you're coming from though, we've been through this before in London and it cost us dearly - 6 months unpaid rent, lost buyer of property, tenants trashed the house before they left, court order and baliff's costs, etc. 


> There are plenty of laws to protect the rights of a tenant, and rightly so.


I agree with you, but where do the rights of the property owner come in?


> Forget about the legal system and see what it will take to get him out. Don't do anything illegal mind you!


 A fellow landlord has offered some 'muscle' to 'persuade' this person that he really wants to leave, but I'm not by nature an agressive person and don't really want to go down that route.
I hand delivered a letter to him today - notice to quit - so I'm hoping/ praying that he might just decide that it's not worth the hassle and leave.


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## ClubMan (16 Jun 2005)

delgirl said:
			
		

> I ran it by the Guards and they are telling me it's a civil matter and they can't get involved.



Sounds odd to me - surely terrorising people and extorting money from them is a criminal rather than civil matter? And if you drew the _Gardaí's _attention to this and they suspect that there is a criminal angle to it then they are surely obliged to act appropriately?



> A fellow landlord has offered some 'muscle' to 'persuade' this person that he really wants to leave



Hang on - is this the same guy above engaging in terrorism and extortion or somebody else?


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## modestus (16 Jun 2005)

I agree with Purple and Clubman -forget about the Court system and PRTB as neither work efficiently -if the person is behaving in a criminal manner change the locks -give new keys to the good tenants and if the criminal tenant goes to court you have plenty of examples of his threatening criminal behaviour -the case would be thrown out -you have to be pragmatic and get on with preserving your right of ownership if you have given the notice to quit -peole like that do  not bother to go to Court in the end because they know they are out of order


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## modestus (16 Jun 2005)

By the way I understand that the Courts have no jurisdiction anymore in disputes between Landlord and Tenant -if you evict them they can always complain to the PRTB but it may take 12 to 18 months to even get an acknowledgement from the PTRB as they do not answer letters or e mails -nor do they cash Landlord's  cheques for registration of tenancies


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## ClubMan (16 Jun 2005)

modestus said:
			
		

> I agree with Purple and Clubman -forget about the Court system and PRTB as neither work efficiently -if the person is behaving in a criminal manner change the locks -give new keys to the good tenants and if the criminal tenant goes to court you have plenty of examples of his threatening criminal behaviour -the case would be thrown out -you have to be pragmatic and get on with preserving your right of ownership if you have given the notice to quit -peole like that do not bother to go to Court in the end because they know they are out of order



Not sure what I said that you're agreeing with but I didn't give the same advice as you did above.


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## modestus (16 Jun 2005)

Sorry about that Clubman was not involved in the discussion -my mistake


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## casiopea (16 Jun 2005)

Delgirl,
I really hope he quits, what a horrible situation to be in.  

Your post earlier about paying him might encourage him to go on and do this to someone else is something that has always really worried me.  I had a terrible tenant (long boring story)   after going through the ordeal the thing that shocked me most was there was nothing I could do to forewarn other landlords after.  She has moved on some landlord out there is probably trying to deal with her or doesnt know what he/she  has let themselves in for.  I contacted Ombudsman, the bank, small claims, managment companies (to see if they had a "black list"), the Gardai, no one could take her details to prevent her renting again.  

I dont mind paying tax on rent and I dont mind paying PRTB but in return I would like to see some better protection for landlords as right now there is nothing. This is something that is working and in place in other countries.

Good luck again,
cas.


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## delgirl (16 Jun 2005)

> I dont mind paying tax on rent and I dont mind paying PRTB but in return I would like to see some better protection for landlords as right now there is nothing.


 Agree with you there casiopea, I'd also like to see some sort of protection for both sides.

Unfortunately, the situation I'm in at the moment is somewhat tricky as the tenants are terrified of this guy and he doesn't even know that I know he's intimidating them.

I fear if he found out that I know what's going on and have had a word with the Gardai, he'd quite probably do something nasty to them.  Can't go into too much detail for obvious reasons, but am trying to get him out by other means - hand delivered notice to quit yesterday and heard yesterday evening he wasn't too happy about it.  What goes around comes around springs to mind!

The worst thing about this problem is that I'm a really good landlord - I care very much about my tenants, my properties and do my best to keep everyone happy.  My faith in human nature is being severely tested.


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## d2x2 (16 Jun 2005)

hey delgirl,

What would that person do if your tenants told him they were moving out? 

Case 1- Would he stay? In that case he would have to sign a lease with you.Is he willing to do that or will he start packing up?

Case 2- Would he leave? 

If you get on with your tenants why not come up with a scenario where they tell the guy that they are moving out, which might get him moving. Play pretend for a while until he is out anyway. Let your regular tenants stay or move back in after a few days if it comes to that.


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## delgirl (16 Jun 2005)

Thanks for the suggestions D2x2.

He was trying to force the tenants out so that he could have the house for himself and wanted to move his mother and 'some friends' in.

If the tenants leave, I don't think I'll be able to get him out at all.  The mother and friends will move in and who knows what could happen then.

He asked me already if he could have a lease if the others move out and I've said no, so hopefully he realises that even if he manages to force them out, he won't get the house and will just give up and move on.

I'm not looking forward to our next encounter with him - he's admitted to the tenants that he's a career criminal with a history of drug dealing, grand theft auto, etc. and has quite a few 'unsavoury friends' who would be only too willing to get out their baseball bats at his request.

I wish he'd just go crawl back under whatever rock he came out from and leave the rest of us to get on with our lives.


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## d2x2 (3 Aug 2005)

Best suggestion I heard recently on this topic was to offer the bad tenant money for moving out and a reference too!


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## Purple (3 Aug 2005)

Hi delgirl, Have you any news on this topic?
If your legal tenants do move out it is very important that you do not accept any rental payments from him. You do not want him to claim that he was just taking over the tenancy and payments from him to you would substantiate this.
Go back to the Gardai and if you can involve a local TD or councillor. Report his threats and intimidation. Can your tenants back you up with statements to the police?


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## delgirl (4 Aug 2005)

Have been on holiday - just got back yesterday and the situation is:

We decided to use the softly softly approach and told him that we were possibly planning to sell the house in the near future and were concerned as he had a wife and small child that we wanted to give him 2 months notice to make sure he was able to find another place to live.

Gave a pretty terse notice to quit on 12th June and he's moving out on Friday or Saturday this week.

He's asked for a reference and I'm going to give him one tomorrow that states the absolute basics - he lived in the property from X date, paid a contribution towards the rent and the house and garden are clean and tidy.

So hopefully he'll be gone by the end of the week and my legal tenants can get on with their lives again.


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## Purple (4 Aug 2005)

Good to see things are finally coming to a conclusion, it sounded like a nightmare.

If I was you I would go to the house when he is leaving and only give him the reference when he is outside the door. I wwould also change the locks the minute he is around the corner.


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## delgirl (6 Aug 2005)

Thanks Purple - I was so ecstatic that he was leaving, I didn't even thing about the locks!!!

He's paid a holding deposit on a house and had to have the reference in advance - otherwise the agency wouldn't give him the lease - so I gave it to him on Thursday.

My tenant is over the moon and is going to call me as soon as he's gone!


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