# Vulture fund,civil bill



## Open air (16 Apr 2017)

Hey guys,,looking for some advice.We took out a mortgage in 2006 with BOSI.We ran into difficulty around mid 2011,my wife became very ill and had to receive alot of hospital care, chemo and trips abroad to see specialists.Our income collapsed as we were both unable to work.The arrears built rapidly as BOSI.were very slow to grant moratorium's or interst only periods.Around the end of oct  2013 we started making regular payments again,approx €330 p/m,should of been paying €700.We kept increasing these payments,as of the 1/1/15 we have paid €520 p/m,full payment is €690.So we have paid every month since oct 2013.Tanager took over our loan in april 2014.Our outstanding on mortgage is €188,000,our arrears balance is €22000.They have never really engaged with us,,to be honest we have had to contact them.My wife cant return to work due to her condition,,i am her carer and have a small business that i run on the side to help with bills.They rang us last mont and offered us a €50,000 euro discount on our mortgage if we could buy them out,we cant..They served us with a civil bill for possession this week and we now have a court date,,where to next,,any advice appreciated.


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## Brendan Burgess (16 Apr 2017)

Start by reading this Key Post 

*Advice for people facing court repossession proceedings*

If you have a mortgage of €188,000 on a tracker rate of 1%, then the annual interest is about €2k a year. 

If you are paying €6,000 a year, that means that you are reducing the mortgage by €4,000 a year. 

Based on our experience in observing court proceedings, it's very unlikely that they will get an order for possession any time soon if ever. 

The problem is that while the balance on your mortgage is reducing, the arrears balance is increasing all the time. 

They will argue, with some justification, that your mortgage is not sustainable. The problem for you is that the alternatives are not sustainable either. 

1) Show up in court, ideally with your wife, and tell the Registrar the full story.  You get an automatic adjournment on the first appearance, but you should show up anyway.   Do not bring a solicitor. You will do much better on your own. 

2) Keep a record of all your efforts to engage with Tanager.  Show that you have been trying, but they have been refusing. 

3) They will have to certify that they complied with the Code of Conduct on Mortgage Arrears.  If they have not engaged, then they are not complying.  

4) You can argue that your mortgage is sustainable. You are gradually reducing the the balance outstanding. Perhaps at some stage, your business or earnings will improve and you will be able to resume full repayments. 


Longer term, you should see if it's at all possible to get family help to clear the arrears, or, at least, resume full repayments. 

How much is the house worth?   With your arrears record you won't get a mortgage elsewhere. But could you sell it to a family member or friend and rent it back? 

There is also the possibility that you might qualify for the mortgage to rent scheme.  A housing agency would buy your house and rent it back to you.  The local authority would probably give you a Housing Assistance Payment to help you with the rent.   But I don't think you should be investigating this for some time. 

Brendan


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## Open air (16 Apr 2017)

It,s hard to value the house.we are in a rural area,and our house was built in council acre site in the 1950's.In the 70's a family member built on the other half of the acre site.my house was adapted by a local authority grant for my wife,and there was a extension put on.So even though ther is no physical boundaries on the site,,according to the folio map we are built 12 metres inside the other family members property.So i reckon it would probably never be sellable to a outsider without some demolition or compensation being paid to the other family member,,ive tried to explain this to them ,but to no avail.What ya think?


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## Brendan Burgess (16 Apr 2017)

Open air said:


> my house was adapted by a local authority grant for my wife



Make sure you tell the Registrar this. 



Open air said:


> So even though ther is no physical boundaries on the site,,according to the folio map we are built 12 metres inside the other family members property



Make sure to tell the Registrar this as well. 

Tell the Registrar that you intend to fully pay your mortgage but that you need time.  And that Tanager will get more money by waiting. 

An alternative to consider is to agree a voluntary surrender or voluntary sale at a huge write off of the mortgage. And then try to get someone to buy it. 

Brendan


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## lukas888 (16 Apr 2017)

Hi Open Air,
I was involved in a similar situation regarding
a property built partly on a neighbour's folio.
The bank involved placed the building on the market in 2010, the estate agent sold it on two separate occasions but once the purchasers Solicitors got involved it never went through.Not knowing the full details i think you are in a strong negotiating position.


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## Open air (16 Apr 2017)

Some guy from a self help group the other day told me to stop paying them,,,(go's against everything i believe),,and he said to take no more phone call's (even though they dont make too many),to get everything in future in writing and signed by a named person.He also thought that tanager has some issue with loans they took .?Any thoughts?


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## Brendan Burgess (16 Apr 2017)

Open air said:


> Some guy from a self help group the other day told me to stop paying them



This is just rubbish.  They are presumably a Freeman type group who think that you can defeat the bank with spurious legal arguments. Adopting this approach is probably the best and quickest way to lose your home. 

If you pay what you can, you will be able to stand up proudly in court and tell the Registrar that who will do everything in her power to keep you in your home by making life difficult for the lender.  If you try to win a legal argument, you will lose the support of the Registrar. 

Brendan


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## Brendan Burgess (16 Apr 2017)

Open air said:


> He also thought that tanager has some issue with loans they took .



There are some issues, but they usually just delay the process by requiring the lender to reissue proceedings.  In your case, they have probably issued them correctly. 

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/thread...curities-against-distressed-borrowers.194913/


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## Open air (16 Apr 2017)

Thank you lukas,,,i hope so too! Thanks brendan i thought as much. I imagine the boundary issue's are a big plus in my favour so?


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## lukas888 (16 Apr 2017)

Agree fully with Brendan as regards Freeman
Etc,but i do think you should explore the folio
Situation it could be very important.Discuss the possibility of your neighbour issuing a Lis
Pendens.


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## Open air (16 Apr 2017)

Would this be issued before or after my own court appearance?


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## lukas888 (16 Apr 2017)

To register a Lis Pendens is an easy process
But you really need to discuss the benefit of
It with your Solicitor.You will absolutely need
Your neighbours cooperation.


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## Brendan Burgess (16 Apr 2017)

Should the Lis Pendens not be kept in reserve until the lender gets an order for possession, if ever? 

The Registrars and Judges don't warm to borrowers who try to use legal tactics to avoid orders. 

Brendan


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## Gordon Gekko (16 Apr 2017)

Brendan is right; the truth is the best way to win this one. Keep paying, appear in Court every time, respect the Court and emphasise that you are doing your best. This is a house that has been adapted for use by someone who was stricken with a medical condition. 

I would be shocked if an order is granted in a case like this.


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## lukas888 (16 Apr 2017)

Yes probably best kept in reserve,but it is a legitimate avenue for the debtor to pursue notwithstanding any 
court bias.


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## Open air (16 Apr 2017)

The neighbour is my dad,,,so to be fair keeping him on side is the easy part!.Ya as brendan says ill walk in keep the head high,,ive done no wrong,and we have broken are backs with last 35 consecutive monthly mortgage payments.Disappointed to be heading down this route,,but what can ya do! Thank you guys for all ye're input


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## Debtfree (16 Apr 2017)

Hi there I am so sorry to hear of you and your family being placed in this awful situation. It might be useful to look at the central banks website and look at the mortgage arrears Resolution process steps and check that the bank fulfilled each part of the code. I think you will find they have not.  It particularly in relation to notifying you in writing of the details of the appeal process. Also tanager as a credit servicing firm also had to fulfil the consumer protection code for servicing firms so check the consumer protection code for credit servicing firms on the same website also. Show you are committed to paying and working out a solution with the bank and I hope you get the outcome you need.


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## Open air (17 Apr 2017)

They only solution that tanager put forward was to make full mortgage payment and put 200 on top to clear arrears.The official line was because you are not making full payments we cant do anything for you.


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## Thirsty (17 Apr 2017)

Leaving aside the 'don't pay' - which is terrible advice - I would 100% agree with ensuring everything is in writing and stop any further phone conversations. Make it clear that you are engaging but that it must be in writing.

Many of these companies have a high staff turnover, and you cant be sure that matters are correctly recorded.


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## Open air (17 Apr 2017)

I do get the feeling that they have not a clue when you ring them.


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## Brendan Burgess (17 Apr 2017)

Thirsty said:


> I would 100% agree with ensuring everything is in writing and stop any further phone conversations.



I have heard this recommended several times and I have yet to hear any rationale for this.

From my extensive experience attending the repossession hearings, the Registrars love hearing the borrowers saying that they did everything they could, but the bank made it difficult.  I can see no advantage in allowing the lender to tell the Registrar that Mr Air refused to take any calls and insisted that all contacts would be in writing.

And the staff in the bank might change. You might well get someone who might be flexible with you.

So take calls and make calls. And follow up each call with an email summarising the content of the call.


Brendan


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## Gordon Gekko (17 Apr 2017)

I have attended repossession hearings.

The Registrar is hugely sympathetic when people are paying something.

However, she is always on the look out for people who are paying ducks and drakes or acting the maggot. Someone who refuses to take calls is viewed with sceptism.

Part of the process is getting the Registrar on your side; in Dublin certainly, my sense is that she wants to be. So pay something, go to Court every time, and engage with the bank. The banks are so badly organised that they'll generally shoot themselves in the foot for you.

But under no circumstances should you follow that crazy advice to stop paying and be obtuse around communication methods.


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## Open air (17 Apr 2017)

Ya good advice,i should of been on the emails as back up a long time ago


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## newtothis (17 Apr 2017)

Brendan Burgess said:


> I have heard this recommended several times and I have yet to hear any rationale for this.



The rationale is simple: it acts as a record of communication if it is all written. This may come as a surprise, but banks involved in cases like this will say pretty much anything on the phone, including telling flat out lies, and then later deny it. I take the point that refusing to take phone calls may seem to not cooperating completely, but if you want to avoid this you've little option. A possible compromise is to summarise any phone conversation in writing, send it to them and say if you haven't heard back in 10 working days to say differently you'll take it that they agree it's an accurate record of the conversation.

Regardless of how it's done I can't emphasise enough to keep records of all communications.


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## Thirsty (17 Apr 2017)

"...rationale for this."

The following is from personal experience

1. Regular staff turnover, Joe says he has no record of Mary's previous agreement.

2. You absolutely must have a paper trail.

3. Few people deal well with stressful situations at the best of times; you will quite possibly either forget or mishear what is said to you.

4. Some (and I stress *some*) bank staff have little or no training. I'm personally aware of a case where a terminally ill person was hounded with phone calls and details of the medical condition were on file and were known.

5. Whoever is ringing you most likely has no authority to settle anything.


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## newtothis (18 Apr 2017)

Thirsty said:


> 3. Few people deal well with stressful situations at the best of times; you will quite possibly either forget or mishear what is said to you.



I'd say it's a stronger case then that: it is next to impossible anyone, not just a few, to focus on a conversation and keep notes at the same time, especially on the phone. For the same reason, if by chance you do get a meeting (vulture funds seem more willing to have these then banks) make sure you bring someone along with you to take notes. I've just seen (partial) minutes for a meeting I was at two months ago that are completely at odds with what was actually said. I'd already sent a summary of the meeting the day after it happened that went uncontested at the time, which makes it difficult for them to make these stick.

That brings up another point: do not underestimate the lender's level of incompetence - use it to your advantage; the better your own records are and level of preparedness, the more you will show this up to any third party who gets involved.


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## Brendan Burgess (18 Apr 2017)

newtothis said:


> A possible compromise is to summarise any phone conversation in writing, send it to them and say if you haven't heard back in 10 working days to say differently you'll take it that they agree it's an accurate record of the conversation.



which is exactly what I said... 



Brendan Burgess said:


> So take calls and make calls. And follow up each call with an email summarising the content of the call.



Apart from the bit about saying "If I have not heard back from you..." 

If you are trying to get a deal, don't make it complex and legal.  Talk to people. Follow up with a summary of the conversation by email. Let them challenge your summary if it's incorrect. 

Brendan


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## Gordon Gekko (18 Apr 2017)

It's important to realise that the Registrar's Court doesn't lend itself to minor points or "he said/she said". My take on it is that the Registrar is under huge pressure in terms of time and volume of work. The borrower has a limited window to demonstrate bona fides, so it's best to focus on:

- The fact that the borrower is making payments.
- The fact that the borrower is showing respect for the Court and for the process by showing up every time.
- The fact that the borrower is engaging with the bank.
- Defending any spin put forward by the bank (e.g. describing a matured loan as "arrears").

My overriding view is that the Registrar wants to be on the side of the borrower but displays professional scepticism around the fact that the borrower may be a spoofer. The aim of the borrower should be to wash that away.


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## Brendan Burgess (18 Apr 2017)

Gordon Gekko said:


> My overriding view is that the Registrar wants to be on the side of the borrower but displays professional scepticism around the fact that the borrower may be a spoofer. The aim of the borrower should be to wash that away.



That is a really good summary of my experience in circuit courts in Dublin, Wicklow and Meath and ties in with descriptions from other courts.


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## TLO (18 Apr 2017)

Hi Open air and everybody

Just to point out that Open air appears to meet the main criteria for a "no-veto" PIA, that is, being in mortgage arrears on the family home as of 1 January 2015.  

A "no-veto" PIA may be worth exploring.  A potential proposal could involve adjusting the mortgage balance to the approximate value of the property, adjusting the term of the mortgage and the repayments to fit Open air's proven repayment capacity of €520 a month.  Although it is an involved process, the big advantage is that the agreement of the lender is not needed, it gets imposed on the lender by a judge.  Also, one of the first steps when applying for a PIA is the obtaining of a protective certificate.  This would halt Tanager's civil bill for repossession allowing time for the PIA to be formally proposed.


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## Open air (18 Apr 2017)

Thank' s guys for ye're advice.I have a family member who is mortgage free and has  a big savings amount.He is retiring next year and will be getting a 70,000 lump sum from work.He said to offer them 30-40 k and see if they would accept it as a final settlement and i could pay him back over a few years.I said i would,but to be honest im afraid they would laugh at me down the phone.I wouldnt borrow it to pay arrears as i wouldnt manage both payments at the same time.What ye think?,,given circumstances with boundaries and the like,,would they look at it or just laugh it off


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## newtothis (18 Apr 2017)

Open air said:


> .....or just laugh it off



I'd advise you to step back and think about that last statement: if all you're worried about is being laughed at then things are going well for you! What's the worst that can happen if you made the offer? You have absolutely nothing to loose (though don't give any indication there may be more forthcoming if they ask how it's being funded.).

I'd also advise trying to get someone to act for you, by the way, as any advice you get here is necessarily general in nature.


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## Open air (18 Apr 2017)

Well there would not be more forthcoming,,,,that is the max he said he would give if we wanted.When you say someone else to act for me what do you mean?


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## Gerry Canning (18 Apr 2017)

Agree with advice given ....
1. Stop taking phone calls , they are recorded and can be taken out of context .
2. Keep everything in writing .
3. Continue to pay what you can reasonably afford . Don,t be too (miserable) on your own outgoings.

With the site place issue , I can,t see Tanager coming out without @ least  a large haircut.
I would think Tanager hasn,t complied fully with consumer mortgage appeal processes.
You say a rural site with k188 mortgage . k188 seems more than it might be worth.
I understand your stress but from what I see you are in a strong negotiating position .
a. Tanager will have site issues = house hard to sell.
b. Your case is not being properly looked @ by Tanager, looks like just going through the motions .
b. Rural area = probably hard to sell at a price near to k188.
c. Avoid the Freeman type people.

Strongly agree , go to court and tell the truth .Let us know how you get on , please.
Good luck.


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## Open air (18 Apr 2017)

Thanks gerry i will keep ye all posted,,thanks for opinion.All of the opinions given have helped hugely


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## Open air (10 Jul 2017)

All done today guys,automatic adjournment for 3 months.From hearing other cases in the court today,,tanager are on slippery ground!


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## Brendan Burgess (10 Jul 2017)

Hi Open air 

Was it not the same for all lenders? Did they grant any orders for possession? 

Brendan


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## Open air (10 Jul 2017)

No orders handed out brendan,he said he was sick of the vulture funds feeling that they did not have to go through the same procedures as the regulated banks.He is not a vulture lover,firm but very fair,you couldnt ask for more.He really made people feel comfortable in the court


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## Open air (10 Jul 2017)

Sorry one handed out i think,but i think the property was vacant


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