# Hourly pay cut



## Missladycakes (2 Feb 2020)

Hi

Need to ask about rules on receiving a pay cut.

My kid has been working since they were 16, they are now 18.5.   Their current job has been for 17 months and is part time.  Original contract was for 6 months and they never received another one after that.  The first week they were paid 6.15 per hour but they were told that was just for training for a week.  They contacted the employer and agreed to adult minimum wage after the first week of training.  

Fast forward to today.  Their employer has given them a verbal warning.  They close at 10pm at night.  During their shift they were told by other staff members that they had to work until 11pm.  They messaged the owner letting them know they couldn't stay as they had plans.  He proceeded to give my kid a verbal warning.  Then today they were told that their wages was being cut and put to 18 year old pay, which is 8.80 ph, they were on 9.80 per hour and of course the Minimum wage was going to 10.10 as of the 1st.   Now just so you know a staff member quit just before Christmas and my kid worked two weeks with only 2 days off to help the employer out.  They had to make the schedule themselves with the one other person left working with them. They cover shifts all the time.  When my kid asks for time off (usually only 1 day) they get grief, they have to constantly remind their employer of the day off and they also have to arrange another staff member to cover them.  My kids employer wanted to know why they were taking the day off.  My kid said it was personal.  The employer started harassing my kid to get the information but they wouldn't tell them as it is very private matter.  Clearly you don't have to tell your employer whey you need to take one day annual leave.  Especially when you have earned the time off and gave 3 months notice.  

Googled changing of hours and employers have to give 24 hours notice to change work times unless it's an emergency such as another member of staff was sick.  In this instance that was not the case.  The employer just decided to change closing time and didn't even inform my kid. No where on the premises is the schedule posted.    

As for the pay cut.  What's the law on this? I can't seem to find anything concrete?  While I know the employer doesn't have to give my kid the Minimum wage increase as they are 18, can they legally cut my kids wage to the 18 year old rate?  My kid is the longest person working there aside from the cooks.  My kid arrives early, is never late and even goes to work then they are sick.  All to avoid grief.  

Please help and my kid is ready to quit but is also saving to buy their first car.

Thanks


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## Clamball (2 Feb 2020)

Your kid is working a minimum wage job for a very poor manager.  I would recommend he gets another job and leave this one.  

There are plenty of good employers out there who appreciate someone who would work 12 out of 14 days to help out when short staffed.


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## Puzzled.com (2 Feb 2020)

Clamball said:


> Your kid is working a minimum wage job for a very poor manager.  I would recommend he gets another job and leave this one.
> 
> There are plenty of good employers out there who appreciate someone who would work 12 out of 14 days to help out when short staffed.



Thanks appreciate that.  They have applied for a few but nothing has come through.   The manager is the owner.  There is so much more to this story and they way they are treated but I'm just looking for law advice to see how they stand.


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## messyleo (2 Feb 2020)

Do they have a contract? If the rate of pay is not specified in teh contract there is probably not much recourse given the employer's attitude - unfortunately for your child :-(


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## Missladycakes (2 Feb 2020)

Trying to locate contract, I do recall it being very short.  They have a screen shot of the employers wife stating "we always start at the minimum wage." Their first pay was in cash and lower rate as training.  The next playslip that they can find is September 2nd and it's 9.50 per hour.  Apparently they sent the others to the incorrect email. These show the minimum adult rate at the time.  So can they reduce it from that?
But if rate isn't stated in the contract can they reduce the rate?


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## DeeKie (3 Feb 2020)

Missladycakes said:


> Trying to locate contract, I do recall it being very short.  They have a screen shot of the employers wife stating "we always start at the minimum wage." Their first pay was in cash and lower rate as training.  The next playslip that they can find is September 2nd and it's 9.50 per hour.  Apparently they sent the others to the incorrect email. These show the minimum adult rate at the time.  So can they reduce it from that?
> But if rate isn't stated in the contract can they reduce the rate?


They cannot unilaterally change the contract like that, regardless of whether it is written down.


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## Missladycakes (3 Feb 2020)

DeeKie said:


> They cannot unilaterally change the contract like that, regardless of whether it is written down.


Hi,

Thanks for the comment.  Where would I find information on that?  Or how did you figure that out?

Thanks


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## Leper (3 Feb 2020)

Reading between the lines I reckon the employer wants to get rid of your kids. Certainly, he is not recognising their value.  I bet the employer is short of the mark upstairs. A meeting with himself and his wife probably will confirm this. 

But, if it were my children:- I'd pull them out of this employment instantly and without notice. I bet the employer will negotiate then. And if they wanted to return to the employment I'd want money upfront from him. Don't worry about recommendations from him, I reckon they would not be worth the paper on which they'd be written.


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## Purple (3 Feb 2020)

Your child has a contract with their employer. It may not be written down but that doesn't matter.
The employer cannot change their terms and conditions of employment without their consent and they certainly cannot change their rate of pay. The employers behaviour is, from what you have said here, utterly outrageous. 
If your child has been working the hours you have outlined for more than 6 months, i.e. when they were 17 years old, then their employer was breaking the law.


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## Missladycakes (3 Feb 2020)

Thanks for the comments guys.  My kid has been working there for 18 months.  He has also done something else illegal to another member of staff but that there business to say.  It's just heart breaking as they work hard and well.  Plus they just saved enough for a car and if my kids employment stops then no car.  So they are kind of stuck until something else comes up.
We are waiting on the payslip to see if it's reduced and there they are going to ask for the reason why in writing.  I'll keep you all posted.
Thanks


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## Purple (3 Feb 2020)

You might consider contacting the WRC.
The notion that employees can or should employed at the whim of their employer is, thankfully, a thing of the past and, more importantly, illegal.


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## Missladycakes (3 Feb 2020)

Hi, I spoke with a lady from WRC and she said he cannot reduce my kids wage.  They also don't have to raise it to 10.10 from 9.80 due to their age. But that isn't as bad as going down to 8.08.  Waiting on payslip on Friday to see what actually occurs.  Also she never got any "terms or employment" which is against the rules.   And they also have to give 24 hours notice to change work times, which didn't occur. 
Advice given was to log everything dates, times and if any other staff member was there.

I'll update on Friday.

Thanks


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## Purple (4 Feb 2020)

Missladycakes said:


> Hi, I spoke with a lady from WRC and she said he cannot reduce my kids wage.  They also don't have to raise it to 10.10 from 9.80 due to their age. But that isn't as bad as going down to 8.08.  Waiting on payslip on Friday to see what actually occurs.  Also she never got any "terms or employment" which is against the rules.   And they also have to give 24 hours notice to change work times, which didn't occur.
> Advice given was to log everything dates, times and if any other staff member was there.
> 
> I'll update on Friday.
> ...


Legally the employer must give an employee written terms and conditions of employment within 3 months of starting. If they don't get them they have an additional 3 months to ask for them. After that time they accept custom and practice within the workplace. Do remember that all the legislation protects the employee and not the employer (and rightly so as it is not an equal relationship) so not having them in writing only strengthens the position of the employee.


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## Leper (4 Feb 2020)

I am not God, but I bet your children will never get a written copy of terms of employment from this employer. Even if they do I'll bet further that it won't be worth the paper on which it is written. 

My Advice:- Get your kids out of there. Try and convince them to return to education and get a 3rd Level qualification. They can always work parttime elsewhere.


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## Missladycakes (6 Feb 2020)

Update

My kid is in secondary school doing the leaving cert so no convincing to return to school there.

Payslip shows hourly rate has been reduced from 9.80 to 8.08, against the law.  Wages in bank confirms this.

A letter was typed and given to the employer asking for the following:
A) Reasons for reduced hourly rate, 
B) Statement of terms of employment 
C) Copy of contract.  
Withing 10 minutes of the employer receiving the letter the employer sent a whatapps message saying "You can take tomorrow off as well please, Thanks"  I'm actually stunned that they would now punish my kid for asking for information that they are legally allowed to ask for.  A reply was sent asking why and the response was "Because not busy".    Finally my kid was told not to message via whatapp that all work related conversation are to be in person (even though employer sent the message first!) and that is would be discussed on Saturday when the shift starts. 

Question as my kid has to go to work on Saturday and then discuss it with the employer can it be recorded??  Otherwise there is no proof of conversation.  I know a telephone conversation can be recorded once one party agrees to it but I can't find anything else.

Thanks


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## PaddyBloggit (6 Feb 2020)

Missladycakes said:


> My kid is in secondary school doing the leaving cert so no convincing to return to school there.



What doe this mean? They are going to do the Leaving Cert or they aren't?

My advice ... get your son to walk away from the job. It isn't worth it. He may win a battle but could lose the war.


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## Missladycakes (6 Feb 2020)

My kid is in school doing the leaving cert, currently taking mock exams.   I mean't "no need to convince to return to school" as they're in school.

Just bought a car so the walking away isn't a great option, although I have said this myself.  Employer actually told my kid that work is more important than study!! 

BTW it's a girl. Funny how most think my kid is a boy.


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## PaddyBloggit (6 Feb 2020)

Your daughter (I guess when someone says kid, I automatically think of a boy) needs out of this negative situation. Educationally, she is facing an important couple of months , months that will determine the course of her life/her career/her work.

For the sake of it, I'd be telling the employer where to stick his job. He'll have your daughter's card marked now and it's less and less work that she'll get from him. Surely there are other jobs that she can take on?

Your daughter's main focus should be on study/her exams.... time enough in the future to deal with awkward employers.


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## Clamball (7 Feb 2020)

Your kid has a bad boss.

Bad boss will make it miserable for your kid to carry on working there no matter what the pay.

As a parent you need to step up and be a good parent during the leaving cert year.
Tell your kid to stop work
Pay your kids car loan until June
Get you kid to focus on the leaving and help her to stay relaxed, rested and stress free in her down time.

This is not what you came here to be told and I understand you may not want to hear this, but I think you are focussing on the wrong thing.

The boss is a bad boss
You need to be the parent


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## Missladycakes (7 Feb 2020)

Clamball said:


> Your kid has a bad boss.
> 
> Bad boss will make it miserable for your kid to carry on working there no matter what the pay.
> 
> ...



Hi,
I thank you for being up front and I agree with you on all pointsBut it’s not that simple.   I’m disabled and can’t afford to pay for the car loan. If I could I would have done it a long time ago. 

She’s making official complaint with WRC regarding all of it.  If she walks away he wins and she’s not one to let that happen.  
Meanwhile she has applied for other PT jobs and us studying away.  

I’ll keep you updated


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## Missladycakes (7 Feb 2020)

UPDATE

Spoke with WRC and here is what I have learnt.

A)  Against the law to reduce hourly rate - she can make official complain but it takes years to sort out.
B) Term of employment should have been given after she started working there.  However now that it has been requested her employer can take up to 2 months to give it to her????  Even though he never gave her one in the first place.  She can make a complaint via Industrial Relations.  The act changed in March 2019 and a copy must be given within 5 days but not if you already work there.
Also note he can now change the terms of employment to suit himself as it wasn't given in the first place. She doesn't have to sign it.
C) Can she record or have someone present during meeting?  That depends on what is in her terms of employment (Which he never gave her!)  She can request information regarding his procedure for grievance but there is no time limit for supplying it.  
D) He must give 24 hours notice to lengthen or reduce her hours - she can make an official complaint but again it takes forever.

Data commissioners has confirmed she cannot record meeting unless she asks and gets written confirmation. She can take the minutes of the meeting but it will be seen as hearsay.  

So there you go.  She will complain but he probably won't be in business by the time anything happens and she will not be working there either.


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## niceoneted (7 Feb 2020)

Contact the WRC.


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## niceoneted (7 Feb 2020)

my post crossed with you


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## Purple (7 Feb 2020)

Missladycakes said:


> UPDATE
> 
> Spoke with WRC and here is what I have learnt.
> 
> ...


Get her to write contemporaneous notes. Sending herself an email is a good way of doing that as it is time stamped.
Get her to communicate with her employer in writing (text or email). If her employer replies verbally then outline what they said in a text or email reply to her employer. If they don't deny it then they are accepting it.
She can leave her job and still take a case to the WRC. 
I don't like employers who abuse their employees. I don't like internships or other things like that which are an excuse to under pay people.


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## Setanta12 (7 Feb 2020)

No bad job is worth the stress it brings. Kid doesn't need it in exam year.

Sell car and use proceeds to pay loan until the Summer and then with another job try pay rest. No insurance costs with no car.   Get kid to approach other employers even if they are not advertising on the off-chance they may need someone in weeks/months to come.

One way or the other, this employer/employee relationship is burned. Good lesson to learn early.  Also huge incentive to study!


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## Missladycakes (7 Feb 2020)

Purple said:


> Get her to write contemporaneous notes. Sending herself an email is a good way of doing that as it is time stamped.
> Get her to communicate with her employer in writing (text or email). If her employer replies verbally then outline what they said in a text or email reply to her employer. If they don't deny it then they are accepting it.
> She can leave her job and still take a case to the WRC.
> I don't like employers who abuse their employees. I don't like internships or other things like that which are an excuse to under pay people.



Thanks for that.  
He won't accept any messages from whatapps as he has before and they don't have a work email to message him on.  She liked Whatspp as you were told when it had been read.  We shall see what tomorrow brings.

(Had to google contemporaneous notes!)
Thanks


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## Missladycakes (7 Feb 2020)

Another update

Terms of employment was left in the work place for her.  She collected them and its dated January 24th 2020 on date of commencement.  This should be date of commencement of employment!   It state the new rate of 8.08 per hour.  Hours of work 3, not entirely sure of this one as she works 5 hours per day if not more and states normal start time 18.00 and finish time 21.00 again not the hours she works.
The grievance and disciplinary procedure are just has link to work place bullying??

She will not be signing it but has highlighted areas and sent it back with questions.

Thanks


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## Christig (8 Feb 2020)

She'd be better off babysitting, especially now she can drive herself.


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## Purple (9 Feb 2020)

Contact the WRC.


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## Missladycakes (9 Feb 2020)

UPDATE

She was asked what's all this paper work about.  She was told no more paperwork or text only talking.  He spoke to her for 45 minutes at the end of her shift about how he's not making enough money, he has bills, business is bad etc. (Food industry always suffer in January, he owns another one, he must know this!)  He said either 4 hours per week at 9.80 or 9 hours per week at 8.08. (Her contract was for 12)  Now keep in mind she's there 18 months, the longest of all counter staff members.  No one else has hours reduced or pay reduced.  It suited him to have her hours/days increased to 12 out of 14 days over the Christmas when a staff member left.  He then said her old contract will expire on the 24th of February and she will have to sign a new one with the new rate or she has a week to leave???  Now I know from googling that you can't force and existing employee into a new contract, you can't reduce pay without both sides agreeing to it etc.  She came home deflated and worn out.  She let him do all the talking as she's knows from previous experience he doesn't' listen to what you have to say anyway.  At the end she informed him that this conversation wouldn't have been necessary and the paperwork wouldn't have been given had he just left her pay as it was.  Finally she told him she wouldn't be signing anything with a reduced pay and if he gave her paperwork it would be brought home to read first.

Oh he asked her "who have you been talking to?" and she said WRC.  He then told her it was a breach of her contract to speak about her job outside of her job.  WOW!  Seriously scaring her so she doesn't talk with WRC. Oh my.

I think she will end up giving her two weeks notice and sell her car just for peace.  Something she had saved very hard for.  I just think it's horrible that he can do this to her.  She also will still be putting forward a complaint against him so it doesn't do it to someone else.


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## Missladycakes (9 Feb 2020)

Purple said:


> Contact the WRC.


Have been onto a few times.


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## Setanta12 (10 Feb 2020)

Missladycakes said:


> Oh he asked her "who have you been talking to?" and she said WRC.  He then told her it was a breach of her contract to speak about her job outside of her job.



He will deny he ever said this. 

Have the WRC been keeping record of your calls or are they anonymous calls to the WRC? It sounds to me like this is definitely a case of constructive dismissal and calls ot the WRC might be persuasive evidence.

One way or the other, your kid must leave.


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## beautfan (10 Feb 2020)

Tell her to keep looking for another job. WRC is fine and dandy but it will be ages before anything significant happens and then possibly feck all. 

While she's there put up and shut up. She needs to pay for the car. 

If she wants to stay with the, oh what he did was illegal,  fine. 

In my opinion life is too short. And I am saying this as a HR person.


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## Seagull (11 Feb 2020)

What's the going rate for constructive dismissal? She definitely has a case.


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## Purple (11 Feb 2020)

Seagull said:


> What's the going rate for constructive dismissal? She definitely has a case.


Not that much for a low earner who hasn't been working there that long.


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## Missladycakes (29 Feb 2020)

Update, She got a new job and starts next week.  She gave her two weeks notice.  Ended up working an extra weekend as one of the staff members had a family emergency.  He is currently interviewing and it appears one other member is quitting too.  

Thanks for all the advice.


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## Missladycakes (29 Feb 2020)

Purple said:


> Not that much for a low earner who hasn't been working there that long.





Purple said:


> Not that much for a low earner who hasn't been working there that long.



She was there for 19 months


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## josh8267 (29 Feb 2020)

Great news,


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## Purple (1 Mar 2020)

More than a year. Good


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