# Private vehicle classed as commerical



## mc-BigE (21 Feb 2006)

Hi,
Been wondering about this one for a while now, A Fellow worker has his SUV classed as commercial since new, and insured privately. I’ve had numerous heated discussions about this with him, but he is convinced he is doing nothing wrong.

Every year he takes his back seats out (which it's designed to do) and drives it to his local DOE Garage, were for 40 euro, they give him a DOE certificate so he can get the SUV taxed, once the SUV is taxed, he then gets his car insured as a private rear seated vehicle and drives away.

Is this legal???

If he has a crash will his insurance company not pay out because the SUV has commercial tax?


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## RS2K (21 Feb 2006)

It's illegal.

The Revenue will want a pound of flesh if they hear of rear seats. A commercial cannot have any afaik.

His insurance is probably void also. I hope he never hits anyone and has to find out.


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## extopia (21 Feb 2006)

Yeah. He doesn't know what he's doing. He thinks he's saving money but in reality he's p*ssing it away on invalid tax and (probably) insurance. And if he's reclaiming VAT on "commercial" expenses in a de facto private vehicle he could also be done for tax fraud.


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## mc-BigE (22 Feb 2006)

Thank God someone else thinks like me!
Just to clarify, this person bought the SUV as a Private Car i.e. VRT/VAT fully paid up when new, but he then clicked the commercial box on the form he got for taxing it and went to get the SUV weighed with the rear seats removed, not cut out , just removed as they were designed.

To be fair, it’s not just his fault, why did the person who weighed the SUV allow it in? Why does his Local DOE Garage give him a new DOE Certificate to get the car taxed every year since 2002? 
Why doesn't his insurance company ask for NCT cert? i.e. Private car. and not accept that the car is just taxed?

I think this is a much wider issue on how individuals are trying to Screw the Government (TaxPayer),but the Government are making it easy for people to do this.

If one suspects a Private vehicle is commercially Taxed, how does one Report it to the authorities, Revenue or Police? or DOE


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## RS2K (22 Feb 2006)

mc-BigE said:
			
		

> Thank God someone else thinks like me!
> Just to clarify, this person bought the SUV as a Private Car i.e. VRT/VAT fully paid up when new, but he then clicked the commercial box on the form he got for taxing it and went to get the SUV weighed with the rear seats removed, not cut out , just removed as they were designed.
> 
> To be fair, it’s not just his fault, why did the person who weighed the SUV allow it in? Why does his Local DOE Garage give him a new DOE Certificate to get the car taxed every year since 2002?
> ...



A little more complex then.

If the correct VAT and VRT was paid day 1, and the SUV is insured as a  private car, the only error/fraud is in realtion to road tax and NCT avoidance.

To tax a vehicle as a commercial it must not have back windows nor the abilty to have back seats fitted afaik. Removing and refitting them is irrelevant.

This vehicle would appear to be rightly be taxed as a passenger vehicle.

If you suspect this sort of fraud it should be obvious from the tax disc. If you feel very strongly about it report it to the Revenue.


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## mc-BigE (22 Feb 2006)

RS2K said:
			
		

> This vehicle would appear to be rightly be taxed as a passenger vehicle.


 
The Vehicle is definitely Taxed as Commercial i.e. 254 a year not 540(I think) for a 2 litre SUV.

I'm not comfortable grassing on a fellow worker, but I can't see why the Government cant find a way to stop individuals getting private vehicles tested in a DOE garage and not an NCT garage.
This would "catch it at the bud" so to speak.


If the vehicle has glass side rear windows, it shouldn't be allowed to get Commercial Road Tax. End of story.


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## mc-BigE (23 Feb 2006)

also the SUV is due to be NCTd by law now as a private vehicle, so how can he do that?

looks like its going to get very complicated for him when a garda stops him and doesn't see an NCT cert. displayed. and his insurance company should start asking for NCT cert also, or will they???


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## RS2K (23 Feb 2006)

The Gardai don't enforce NCT cert. display afaik.

Ins. co's don't require sight of NCT cert. either.

Road tax people couldn't care less once it's got a DOE cert.


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## mc-BigE (23 Feb 2006)

going off thread here slightly, but can you get penalty points for not displaying NCT cert?

Also some insurance companies will ask in their policy if the car is NCT'd , i got a new quote from an insurance company last year and that was one of the questions asked in the policy, but I suppose one more little lie wouldn't hurt!


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## RS2K (23 Feb 2006)

mc-BigE said:
			
		

> going off thread here slightly, but can you get penalty points for not displaying NCT cert?
> 
> Also some insurance companies will ask in their policy if the car is NCT'd , i got a new quote from an insurance company last year and that was one of the questions asked in the policy, but I suppose one more little lie wouldn't hurt!



1/. I don't know. Do a google search for penalty point offences.

2/. "One little lie" can certianly invalidate any policy of insurance. There is an assumption of "upmost good faith" and failure to disclose any "material" fact contravenes this principal. A claim on such a policy can be refused if the whole truth is discovered.


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## mc-BigE (23 Feb 2006)

No sign of that NCT offence on their website www.transport.ie/upload/general/7262-0.pdf

So, it looks like a loop hole to me, as long as he doesn't crash!


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## mickk (4 Mar 2006)

If he had done the same thing to avoid hefty vrt then the saving might be worth the risk of getting caught but because it is already a private suv it is only a saving of less than 300 euro a year. In my opinion deff not worth the risk. Watch out for the spring/summer customs spot checks like last year specifically to confiscate both irish driving english reg cars and commercials who replace back seats after vrting for 50 euro... 
Last year they seized there and then over 300 high end vehicles avoiding vrt. (Some of the vrt was so over the top the cars were never collected!!)


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## s2000 (5 Mar 2006)

Those double cab jeeps are commercials with back seats right? This must be the only exception.


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## racso (6 Mar 2006)

They can be both commercal or private as it depends on the person buying it as is the same with the ones that just sits two people. It all depends if the person buying it wants to use it commercially or have them as a fashion accessory like Mr. Beckham and his Ford f150


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## mc-BigE (6 Mar 2006)

Regarding Double cab pickups, i thought the government clamped down in that in 2002/2003? ie classed as private only, not commerical? am i wrong?


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## pat 2800 (6 Mar 2006)

The end is neigh !!!

The DOE laws have changed. From last November rear seat belt and seat points MUST be welded up permanently to pass the DOE.This directive was issued to all doe test centres by dept environment.
I was taxed commercially but now have to pay a whopping 1070 euro on an old jeep.ABSOLUTE RIP OFF !!!
The tax on this jeep in the UK is £175, the maximum road tax available.Why do we have to pay so much more ??
I would pay it if I could see the money being used on my local roads which are ridden with potholes and non existent verges, but the council claim constantly that there are no funds available.


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## mc-BigE (6 Mar 2006)

Well my work colleague mentioned at the beginning just got his suv DOE'd for another year back in January, so it hasn't filtered down this neck of the woods yet.

I agree Pat 2800 , the road Tax /VRT situation in Ireland is crazy, but that’s the law.

I personally would love to do it, but I would be worried when its time to fill out the insurance accident claim form.
Question 1: what class is your vehicle!

I would also like if I didn't have to pay income tax as well


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## mc-BigE (9 Mar 2006)

pat 2800 said:
			
		

> The end is neigh !!!
> 
> The DOE laws have changed. From last November *rear seat belt and seat points MUST be welded up permanently to pass the DOE*.This directive was issued to all doe test centres by dept environment.
> I was taxed commercially but now have to pay a whopping 1070 euro on an old jeep.ABSOLUTE RIP OFF !!!


 
Just as a matter of interest how would that work with double cab pickups?
do the rear seat /seat belts have to be removed and welded up for it to be classed commerical. whats the point in buying one then? if its commerical?


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## mc-BigE (3 Apr 2006)

Just a quick update, i sent an email to the DOE website about this and this was their reply, xxxxx is the DOE man yyyyy is me:


xxxxx wrote:
Dear Mr. yyyyy,
I refer to your recent communication in connection with your motor tax
enquiry.
At the outset, I might explain that under the Finance (Excise Duties)
Act, 1952, the basis of assessment for motor tax purposes is governed
by
the construction of a vehicle and the use to which it is put. In order
to avail of the goods (commercial) motor tax rate, a vehicle (e.g jeep
or SUV) must be used commercially at all times and adapted for the
carriage of goods. The necessary adaptations are that all seats and
seat
belts to the rear of the driver's seat must be removed, seat belt
connections and anchor points must be welded over and the goods
carrying
area must be greater than the seating area. Otherwise, the vehicle
must
be taxed as a private vehicle. In addition, if such a vehicle is being
used commercially but also required to transport passengers, then it
must be taxed at the higher rate i.e taxed privately.
In view of the fore-going, the vehicle you describe would not satisfy
the criteria to be taxed commercially.
On the insurance issue, there is no insurance database. At present, it
is understood that insurance companies automatically give private and
domestic insurance cover for small vehicles. Any futher queries on
this
issue might be addressed to the Insurance Section of the Department of
Public Enterprise which is the relevant Government Department on this
matter.
Yours sincerely,
xxxxx,
Motor Tax Policy Section. 


my reply back was:

>>> xxxxx 29/03/2006 16:48:26 >>>
Thank you for your reply, very useful infomation, but can you clarify
one point, if one buys a cab crew pickup vehicle, because it carries
passengers but would also have a commerical area greater then seating
area,does this qualify for commerical road tax.
Also is there a regulating body, that regulates DOE Garages, as this
seems to be the place were vehicles, which clearly don't qualify, are
currently getting DOE certificates like the one on the vehicle i was
going to buy back in Jan2006?
Kind Regards & thanks again for info.
Xxxxx

His second reply:

Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 10:23:28 +0100
From: "xxxxx" <xxxxx@environ.ie>
To: <yyyyy@yahoo.ie>
Subject: Re: Motor Tax enquiry

Mr. yyyyy,

On the question of crew cabs, the situation is that the carriage of
employees is permitted in a goods taxed vehicle (say a crew cab)
provided they are employed by the registered owner of the vehicle, the
carriage takes place in the course of their employment and the vehicle
is ordinarily used for the conveyance of goods in the course of
trade/business. The ultimate decision as to whether a vehicle is to be
taxed at the goods rate or not rests with the local motor tax office -
who must be satisfied that the tax disc for which an application is
being made is the appropriate disc for the vehicle in question. 

The regulatory body governing DOE testing in garages is the Vehicle
Standards Division of the department of Transport, 25 Clare Street,
Dublin 2.

Sincerely,

xxxxx,
Motor Tax Policy.


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## Keentoinvest (14 Apr 2006)

Quick question

I have placed a deposit on a commercial jeep. The garage brings them in and converts them. VRT  is avoided making it cheaper to buy.

While considering going through the bank and buying it over 4 years I have decided to buy it through the company instead which saves having to buy it out of taxed income.

Question 1. Does anyone have any tips on the cheapest bank/method to pay this back over the 4 years. The garage has offered financing which i have no doubt is vastly more expensive than shopping around.

Question2. Can the company sell it to me personally at a discounted price at the end of 4 years?


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## bskinti (14 Apr 2006)

The Gardai don't enforce NCT cert. display afaik.

Afraid your wrong,look at any local newspapers and not having a valid nct cert ,saw person get €500 fine plus €300 for no tax,
   Pick ups with rear seats are taxed as commercial but VRT was changed in 2003 to same rate as private vehicle


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## bond-007 (18 Apr 2006)

The NCT offence is only ever used as a filler offence. You will never see it on its own always as part of a no tax/insurnace combo.


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## s2000 (18 Apr 2006)

Hi. I have got an insurance quote for my soon to arrive Toyota Hilux and it says I will be able to use it for social/domestic and pleasure purposes. So, I can use my commercial Hilux for work (carrying my goods) and private use. Is this thread ONLY talking about tax and not insurance? Thanks, Adrian


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## Japnuts (27 Apr 2006)

Rules changed in November 2005 to eliminate the loopholes described in this thread.

Light commercial vehicles must have the rear seats, rear seatbelts, and rear side windows removed, the mounting points must be welded over, and a flat load floor must be fitted which blocks the rear passenger footwell.

Crewcabs do qualify as a commercial for road tax, but must be used commercially. They used to qualify for the lowest rate of VRT, a flat rate of €50 per vehicle, but this has now changed and most now require a payment of 13.5% of the OSMP (Open Sale Market Price) of the vehicle here in Ireland.


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## mc-BigE (27 Apr 2006)

Japnuts said:
			
		

> Rules changed in November 2005 to eliminate the loopholes described in this thread.
> 
> Light commercial vehicles must have the rear seats, rear seatbelts, and rear side windows removed, the mounting points must be welded over, and a flat load floor must be fitted which blocks the rear passenger footwell.


 
Is there a link to this anywhere on the Government website or DOE website etc.

thanks
E


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## Japnuts (27 Apr 2006)

I dont think so, I had to obtain a written letter from the Central vehicle office in order to clarify the issue for our customers.


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## s2000 (29 Apr 2006)

Here's an interesting quetion about crew cabs..... I am buying one so interesting to me anyway! 

You buy a crew cab commercially via your comapny and claim the VAT back. But you use it for private use also and pay the 5% BIK as a result. Can you really claim the VAT back in this case as it's not only a company expense but a private vehicle too (by virtue of the fact you are paying the BIK proving you are using it personally). Thanks everyone. Adrian


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