# Heating Systems for new build



## bettyboop (25 Mar 2009)

Hi

I am about to start building a house and am really confussed at this stage at what kind of system to go for.
I am hearing good and bad feedback from every system possible when i think i have decided i get a bad review an stuck again.

Anyone got any advice.

Its a 2500sqft two story horse in the west of ireland. I was really considering underfloor heating but not sure on the best way to heat these. 
Also i definitely want a solid fuel fire in my sitting room.

All advice greatly welcomed........


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## Oilean Beag (25 Mar 2009)

This guy wouldn't recommend underfloor heating

http://www.independent.ie/national-...-says-tearful-poll-ally-of-cowen-1684806.html


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## berlininvest (25 Mar 2009)

I would be very interested in this too as a family member is building a similar sized dormer house, and can't decide whether to put in UF heating or rads.

Even if he does decide on that, he is not sure whether to use geothermal or oil or an air heat pump or what.

Like you, he keeps hearing different stories about each method.


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## kemosabe (26 Mar 2009)

In my very humble opinion I would avoid using underfloor with oil & would pair it with either a ground source or air source heat pump. Although the key is to insulate, insulate, insulate your house & make sure all areas where drafts can escape such as doors, windows, service pipes etc are taped because the more efficient your house is, the less it will cost to heat no matter what system you use.


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## clonboy (26 Mar 2009)

hi i just did a 2 storey of that size in east clare
put in oil and a condeser oil burner, adding 2 externally mounted solar tube panels, fitted a triple coil SS tank. will have a waterfros stanley solid fuel stove with boiler in kitchen and used insulated slabs on the external walls, not moved in yet but the oils cheap now and have it on the lowest setting,, house is really warm, and yet to insulate the attic..

why complicate things is what i say


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## krissovo (26 Mar 2009)

clonboy said:


> hi i just did a 2 storey of that size in east clare
> put in oil and a condeser oil burner, adding 2 externally mounted solar tube panels, fitted a triple coil SS tank. will have a waterfros stanley solid fuel stove with boiler in kitchen and used insulated slabs on the external walls, not moved in yet but the oils cheap now and have it on the lowest setting,, house is really warm, and yet to insulate the attic..
> 
> why complicate things is what i say



How is the stove connected to the system?  The stove I imagine would be an open system and the boiler a closed system.


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## clonboy (26 Mar 2009)

thats only a q my plumber could answer sorry


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## krissovo (26 Mar 2009)

No Problem, thanks.

Interested as that is a very similar system to what I am looking at.  I would use a "cheap" oil boiler until the cost of *insert fancy, expensive eco friendly system here *comes down and then I would replace that.


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## kemosabe (27 Mar 2009)

clonboy said:


> hi i just did a 2 storey of that size in east clare
> put in oil and a condeser oil burner, adding 2 externally mounted solar tube panels, fitted a triple coil SS tank. will have a waterfros stanley solid fuel stove with boiler in kitchen and used insulated slabs on the external walls, not moved in yet but the oils cheap now and have it on the lowest setting,, house is really warm, and yet to insulate the attic..


 
Krissovo, Im just wondering how much cheaper the above system would be to install than the "_* fancy, expensive eco friendly system*_" you refer to ? I have been quoted about 11,500 euro to install an air to water heat pump with all the underfloor plumbing on a 2,500sq foot storey and a half house ( UVH on both levels).This would provide all the heat & hot water in the house without any requirement for a back up system.
Im not asking this queston in a sarcastic way, I am genuinely curious as I cant imagine a system with a condensing oil burner, with 2 solar tube panels & a solid fuel stove boiler comes cheap ? Or does it ?


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## clonboy (27 Mar 2009)

let me see, todate i have paid 3100 for the oil burner, grant vortex, and the ss tank 300 litre triple coil. including the balanced flue kit and two circulatiing pumps, oil tank i got free.

i have paid out 4k on plumbing materials, pipes, insulation fittings, and 3 shower trays.

i paid the plumber 2500 euro to date, and thats with the heating fired up now.

i paid 1200 stg for the stanley stove,  yet to buy sanitary ware and install that, pipes are ran outside for the solar panels, which i have yet to buy , allthough i am approved for the grant which was 1500 if i recall.

thats me in a nutshell i guess. PS, my sewers etc weere done by a separate guy with my foot paths and i got free wavin pipes,


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## ClickityClic (27 Mar 2009)

I build a new two-storey house three years ago and have been living here for the past two years.  I installed a Firebird oil-burning boiler in my kitchen and the house is very well insulated.  The boiler controls the water-heating and the central heating. (Rads) I have had two fills of oil in two years.  I eventually decided that the true and tested way was the way to go.  And I'm not sorry


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## kemosabe (27 Mar 2009)

Thanks Clonboy,
Thats very helpful so about 2-3k in the difference. I hear what you are saying clickity, I suppose every system is different & it is really down to personal choice & heat requirements.


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## Goldie (27 Mar 2009)

Kemosabe,

I would be very interested in getting the detail of that quote, i have a very similar size house and the same heating set-up and have rec'd a quote for a few grand more. What make air to water heat pump and can you give the name of the installer?

Thanks,

Goldie.


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## kemosabe (27 Mar 2009)

No Problem Goldie,
The company is Energy Master in Listowel, Kerry. The make of the pump is a Daiken, Altherma. The quote I mentioned above includes supply *only* from energy master & underfloor installation from our plumber. Energy master will supply & install if you require but it worked out a bit more expensive for us. They have a good web site.
Hope that helps.


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## Goldie (28 Mar 2009)

Hi Kemosabe,

Thanks for that. I have dealt with Energy Master previously, have only heard good things about them. Can you confirm is the €11.5k total cost of supply from Energy Master and including cost of installation and materials from plumber? If so that is fantastic and beats any quotes i could get by about €4k! 

Are you installing a HRV system? If so from whom - Energy Master?

Cheers,
Goldie.


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## kemosabe (28 Mar 2009)

Hi Goldie,
I am awaiting a further quote from Energy Master so its difficult to give a definite answer yet. My builder has included all underfloor & whichever heat pump system I source in his quote. I was initially quoted about 8k from EM for supply & install.
Yes I am looking at an EM HRV system at present. Its an Itho HRV, an impressive system but at 7k its a bit rich so I will keep looking.
Im not sure if you are aware but Daiken have released a new version of the Altherma heat pump. This new version is more efficient, cheaper to supply & install than the older version. It incorporates the outdoor unit & the indoor hydro box into one unit. EM will have these heat pumps available soon so worth checking out.
Can I ask you what heat pumps & HRV are you considering ? Also what experiences of HM have you heared ? For example quality ? Price ? Pre-sales service ? After sales service ? Or any relevant info ?


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## Goldie (30 Mar 2009)

Hi Kemosabe,

I am also looking at the Daiken altherma pump. Thanks for letting me know about the never version - i wasn't aware of that.

EM have installed a geo system for a family member and also an air to water pump in a house of a friend. Good pre and post sales reports from these people - some concern on running costs though but it is proving difficult to get very accurate information on this and also compare like with like. 

I have had extensive pre sales queries with one EM employee and have found them very good so far - we are still negotiating on price! I am also looking at their ITHO HRV system but most ikely on a supply only basis and get my plumber to install as he has experience.

PM me if you want any more specific info that we are not allowed discuss on an open forum- i think we have very similar requirements.

Cheers

Goldie.


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## kemosabe (30 Mar 2009)

Hi Goldie, 
I just sent you a PM. Hope I sent it correctly. Let me know if you dont get it.


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## Goldie (30 Mar 2009)

Thanks. Have received it and replied - but i'm not sure i've done it correctly. Let me know if you don't receive it.


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## rebellad (31 Mar 2009)

kemosabe said:


> Hi Goldie,
> I am awaiting a further quote from Energy Master so its difficult to give a definite answer yet. My builder has included all underfloor & whichever heat pump system I source in his quote. I was initially quoted about 8k from EM for supply & install.
> Yes I am looking at an EM HRV system at present. Its an Itho HRV, an impressive system but at 7k its a bit rich so I will keep looking.
> Im not sure if you are aware but Daiken have released a new version of the Altherma heat pump. This new version is more efficient, cheaper to supply & install than the older version. It incorporates the outdoor unit & the indoor hydro box into one unit. EM will have these heat pumps available soon so worth checking out.
> Can I ask you what heat pumps & HRV are you considering ? Also what experiences of HM have you heared ? For example quality ? Price ? Pre-sales service ? After sales service ? Or any relevant info ?



Kemosabe, EM will be installing the Altherma for me in a few weeks and I was wondering where did you hear about the new version. As far as I know I am getting the seperate indoor and outdoor unit and was wondering should I get back onto EM to see if I can change it.


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## kemosabe (31 Mar 2009)

Hi Rebellad,
It was EM themselves who advised me of the new `monobloc` system. As far as I can remember they have the system now in stock & are just conducting their own efficiency tests. I would def go back to them.
Do you mind me asking have you spoken to many people with the system ?


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## rebellad (1 Apr 2009)

Thanks kemosabe, I will give them a call later on. I was speaking to 3 people who have it in, 2 were very happy after initial teething problems and the other was still a bit sceptical about it.


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## kemosabe (1 Apr 2009)

Grand,
I have spoken to three people with the system (1 with rads), & 1 person with a similar system. All are very happy with the systems & would put them in again if they were doing it again.


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## Garboaks (5 Apr 2009)

Hi

I am in the middle of a 3500 sqft new build and it's getting close to deciding what heating system to use. I am looking at under floor heating on the 2 floors with a hrv system and a air to water heat pump. My head is melting with every company giving out about the next. Can anyone give me some solid feedback on the best company to use. any info greatly appreciated.


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## kemosabe (5 Apr 2009)

Hi Garboaks,
Im not in a position to recommend anyone as you are ahead of me in the build. I have not started yet & so the company I have been dealing with has only assisted me with information & quotes. Sorry. What heat pumps have you looked at ?


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## Garboaks (5 Apr 2009)

Hey kemosabe,

the quotes I am getting are nearly all Daikin except 1 which is for Master therm. I have never heard of master therm.


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## DavyJones (5 Apr 2009)

Garboaks said:


> Hey kemosabe,
> 
> the quotes I am getting are nearly all Daikin except 1 which is for Master therm. I have never heard of master therm.




what kind of money are you being quoted?


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## Garboaks (5 Apr 2009)

So far they range from 44k down to 24k for the full system- UFH,HRV,Air Source pump. The problem I am having is that four companies are quoting me for identical system, same make and model for everything yet there is 20k between dearest and cheapest.  Have been told by the competition that some of the smaller companies (the cheapest prices) might not be around in another couple of months.


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## kemosabe (6 Apr 2009)

Dear God, 
 It would seem to me that 44k is obscene money for that system. Check out Energy Master in Kerry. They are a fairly established company & their quote would be very competitive with what you have detailed above. I have no connection with this company at all but have done a bit of research on them, through this site & other avenues. Reports I have got have been positive. I cant see how there can be such a difference in the prices you have received. That is shocking !


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## Garboaks (6 Apr 2009)

I Know the figures are crazy. The big thing I find you dont get any kind of a guarantee its all just estimates. It feels like such a gamble.


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## deadlyduck (6 Apr 2009)

We completed the build of a 3000 sq ft house last year and used a system supplied by energymaster- a CTC air-to-water system [EcoAir and EcoEl, 6kW rating]. We have UFH on the ground and first floor. 

Here's my tuppence worth:


We only use electricity as an energy source and have 24/7 hot water and (after some period of getting used to the system) a very satisfactory ambient temperature in the ground/ first floor.
The average ESB bills since we moved in are approx €200 per month although this is typically €150-ish per month in the warmer months and €300-ish in the Nov/Dec/Jan/Feb months. Annual electrical costs for EVERYTHING should come in at approx €2500 (80 cents per square foot)
I'd strongly recommend ensuring that you insulate to the 'nth degree'- I can't remember the depth of insulation we put in the floors but it was more than the minimum (possibly 250mm?). We used a well-regarded brand by Kingspan with a foil backing.
It's very important to use either concrete or equivalent on the upper floor. Anything else is less effective at distributing the heat. On the first floor, we used EasyScreed from Jerry Beade  and are happy with the results.
Floor material- if wood, make sure that you glue (don't use nails!)it directly to the concrete/ screed and use the 'right glue' (expensive- a tub cost approx €130 at the time). Putting a wooden floor on battens will result in an air gap between the warmed concrete and the wood- this will make it very difficult/ inefficient to heat the wood.
If I was doing it again, I'd probably put in solar panels on the roof (I've no clear understanding of the lifespan or efficiency of the various systems) and would almost certainly put in a HRV system- our budget didn't extend to that at the time. If you didn't want to actually install solar panels now but would like the option of doing so later, you could check out the requirements for installing piping from the roof to the hot water tank/ heat pump. Then, later, it would be a very neat job to install solar panels and connect same to the piping.
Our system, including the extra cost for insulation and screed (these elements came to approx €5000) came to approx €27000 net of a grant which was ballpark €4000.

A word of caution- we had difficulties with Energymaster primarily in relation to the work they undertook outside of the house (the work they did inside the house was exemplary). Originally we wanted a borehole based geothermal system (which proved impossible for geological reasons) and they proposed a 'compact ground based' geothermal system (basically a compact array of pipes which look like oversized towel warmers and which are buried approx 6-8 feet under the surface). However, they didn't  measure/investigate the site adequately (apart from a cursory initial visit/ sales call) and when it came to the installation of the array there wasn't sufficient space/ soil quality was bad and the trenches kept collapsing. This set our build back quite a bit while an alternative solution was devised. We almost lost the grant due to their delaying and ultimately had to ask my builder to "have words with them". 

In the end , however, we are happy with the system


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## kemosabe (7 Apr 2009)

Very Interesting DeadlyDuck,
Can I ask, Do you have stats in every room or just in every room upstairs with down stairs counted as one Zone ? Do you have the night rate metre ? If so, What way do you operate your system ? For Example how many hours is the heat pump on each day & at what times etc ?
Thanks


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## deadlyduck (7 Apr 2009)

Yes- we have stats in all rooms both upstairs and downstairs. They are each set for 19 degrees but the heatpump overrides that to 18.5 degrees at present. We find that the ambient temperature is very agreeable at this setting.

We have only just installed the night rate metre (1 week ago)- we originally wanted it and were told by our electrician that it was 'too late'..... untrue.

With the nightrate, we block the compressor during the day (a setting on the heatpump allows this) and allow it to operate during the nightrate hours. This means that our water is heated during the nighttime only. If required, we can use the electric element to heat during the day but at present we aren't doing that as the average temperature to date is approx 45-50 degrees. If we needed a lot of watrer for showers/baths/washing machine etc we can switch the heating element on as required.

On average, the compressor is operating for anything between under 2 hours a day (relatively rare) to up to 9 hours (also relatively rare). I'd guess an average of 4 hours-5 hours per day is about right. Since the switch to nightrate, I've been tweaking the settings so it hasn't really been bedded down yet.


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## kemosabe (7 Apr 2009)

Thanks For the reply,
So just to make sure, am I right in thinking you are going to have the heat pump operating during day time hours for space heat & then at night time for hot water ?


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## deadlyduck (8 Apr 2009)

The circulation pump (which pumps the water through the UFH) operates as required without restriction.

We've blocked the compressor (basically the outside fan unit) during the daytime hours in order to save using expensive day-rate electricity. 

Our heating is based on the hot water running through the UFH pipes. therefore, once the water is hot enough from the night time heating, I don't need to use the compressor during the day. (It's the compressor that's expensive to run- the heat pump itself is cheap, I think)
I noticed yesterday, which was cold down here, that I needed to use the compressor during the day to heat the water as the temperature of the water had dropped significantly- this would have an impact on running costs but it's too early to say whether it's a problem or not. The house wan't 'cold' per se but I wanted to have warmer water in the taps.


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## kemosabe (9 Apr 2009)

So do you heat your house at night time & use the floors as a type of storage heaters thus keeping the house warm through the next day ? Is that not uncomfortable at night time.


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## deadlyduck (11 Apr 2009)

Not uncomfortable - remember that the stats control room temperature so we 
regulate the bedroom temperature using those.
We basically heat a volume of water at night which is then used to 
supply the heat to the rest of the house by day.
Stats help to `regulate` the valves which open\close to let more\less
water flow through.


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## Buildright (15 Apr 2009)

I think someone needs to make the point that you don't need a hi-tech heating system costing over €20k and costing €1500 a year at present prices. It seems people spec their houses by selecting a massively oversized heating system. Do you really need 3000 square foot, wouldn't you be better build 2,500 square feet but build it to an appropriate standard.

A properly designed and built house will need a tiny heating system. Electric underfloor in wet rooms and kitchen would be more than sufficient.

Good solar orientation and clever use of daylight along with continuous insulation with no cold bridges and Heat recovery Ventilation with a small post heater is the only option. Building anything else doesn't make sense especially with projected energy increases of 7% per annum. 

Instead of getting an Engineer or Surveyor supplied stock house plans, get your building designed to suit your site and your lifestyle and one that is future proofed. I despair when I see the standard of design and construction that people are prepared to accept in this country. We pay above the odds for concrete buildings with plastic insulation or shoddy timber inner leaf's, the design is focused on providing an impressive elevation to the road but doesn't address the path of the sun or the views.
Then we install a huge heating system which goes cold after 2 hours. For 5%-8% extra you can have a Passive house, with light, comfort, natural materials and a responsive heating system for when you need it. A Passive house with no heating will maintain 16 degrees in winter in Ireland.


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## quack13 (29 Jul 2009)

Just wondering how any of you guys got on with your _daikin_ altherma systems?

I am looking at such a system at the moment. I have been quoted for the 2 piece unit (indoor & outdoor) and the monobloc unit - which is slightly cheaper.

Has anyone here used the monobloc unit?

Has either unit got any particular advantages over the other?


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## olddog (31 Jul 2009)

Some threads on ASHPs to be found at :

http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=78


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## magtape (1 Aug 2009)

Hi Guys
My friend installed a Danfoss air to water heatpump from ES Therm in Wexford and he is very happy with it as his complete ESB bill for Jan Feb was €200.
I had reccomended them to him as they installed a stove for me before and we were very happy also.


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