# Original House Title Deeds Lost



## Miranda (9 Apr 2009)

Would any one know how long it takes and the costs involved for the Land Registry to duplicate Title Deeds when photocopies of most of the original Title Leasehold  and subsequent Freehold Docs (applied for using photcopied original Title) are to hand, searches have been done and property never changed hands? Thanks.


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## nuac (9 Apr 2009)

If the title is registered with absolute title in the PRA you can rely on the folio and normally would not need the prior title deeds.


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## j26 (9 Apr 2009)

It sounds like an unregistered title (registered in Registry of Deeds rather than Land Registry).

In that situation where the original deeds are lost you need the best available evidence of the deeds - certified copies, and memorials of their registration in the Registry of Deeds.  Searches in respect of all parties on title will also be needed.

If the originals are lost, and you're relying on copies, but still want to register the title, it can be gotten around by means of some affidavits as to how they were lost, whether they have been pledged as security for a loan, and either an indemnity indemnifying the state against loss from registering on the basis of the copies (i.e. you take the financial risk) or defective title insurance (a couple of hundred quid).

As to time, well it depends - an investigation of title can take weeks or years depending on the complexity, and how well the solicitor has prepared the case.

The PRA fee is €85, but there will be outlay and solicitors fees which will make it a whole heap more expensive.

If it's registered in the Land Registry and it's a copy folio that's gone missing, don't worry, just get another copy.  If it's a land certificate, just sit on it for a while - the problem will go away on 31/12/09 when land certificates are abolished.


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## murphaph (12 Apr 2009)

We own a property that's registry of deeds and we have all the deeds going back to the early 1900s but can we get this property registered with the land registry and if so, how much does it cost roughly? (sorry for hijacking thread but it's quite similar).


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## juke (12 Apr 2009)

murphaph said:


> We own a property that's registry of deeds and we have all the deeds going back to the early 1900s but can we get this property registered with the land registry and if so, how much does it cost roughly? (sorry for hijacking thread but it's quite similar).



You can - but there's really no need. Unless you live in a county that requires compulsory registration* or there is a defect in your title, personally I would consider it an unnecessary expense. Registry of Deeds title is more "cumbersome" but fine.

Costs: 

Land Registry 85
Copy folio & map 25 (the final document you get from the land registry once registration is complete - and effectively your new deed)
Searches - budget 100-200, but could be as low as 70.
Commissioners fees c 20
Architect's fee to draw up a suitably acceptable map ?
Legal - based on time spent - min. 500 plus vat. (2 hours) more if there are problems.

Time - how long is a piece of string, unfortunately. I've had a few take 5-6 years, others a few months. The Land Registry have introduced a more fast track system where a solicitor certifies title as good - but I have never had cause to use it, so I can't comment more.

* only compulsory on next transaction - eg if you sell, a new purchaser must register the deeds in the Land Regsitry.


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## murphaph (13 Apr 2009)

Cheers for the detailed reply. It's in South County Dublin, do they require land to be registered?


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## juke (13 Apr 2009)

Not at the moment


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## murphaph (13 Apr 2009)

Thanks juke. Looks like more hassle and expense than it's worth. We'll keep our bundle of deeds safe


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## mjkearns (15 Apr 2009)

If there are bundles of copies of documents available it sounds like the title is a Registry of Deeds title rather than a Land Registry title. With a Land Registry title you will not have a bundle of documents. If a Land Certificate has issued it is the only valuable document. I rather doubt that this is the situation given that a multiplicity of documents is mentioned.

I think you should consider consulting with your solicitor and apply for first registration of your title in the Land Registry. This would achieve two things - you would dispense with the need for these bundles of documents and the worry of losing them and once registration in the Land Registry is completed you will have your title registered as a freehold folio with absolute title. The process is not overly complicated but it can be slow. The only proof thenceforth that you will need with reference to your ownership of a copy of the folio. It can be downloaded from landdirect.ie if you have an account with the Property Registration Authority for a fee of €2.50 or you can obtain an officially issued copy folio with filed plan (i.e. map of your property) attached by applying for it an paying a fee of €25.00. A copy folio is not an intrinsically valuable document and if you lose it you need not panic. You can order as many copies as you want at any time from the Land Registry!


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## Etna (9 Jul 2009)

Our title deed was lost (not by us) and it has now been reconstituted. Has anyone any experience of selling or buying a house with a reconstituted title deed. Does it raise any issues or make it more difficult to complete sale.  

Also as its a Registry of Deeds title would it be possible to transfer to Land Registry as the Land Registry seems to offer a State guarantee to title.  Not sure if I am I right there, have been reading PRA website and that is my understanding of what I read.


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## j26 (9 Jul 2009)

Etna said:


> Our title deed was lost (not by us) and it has now been reconstituted. Has anyone any experience of selling or buying a house with a reconstituted title deed. Does it raise any issues or make it more difficult to complete sale.


 
It is a minor defect on title, but if the title has been reconstructed correctly, then it should not be a major issue.  A Statutory Declaration by you or the solicitor who searched for the original deeds and setting out the searches that were made will help a prospective purchaser as it will ease the way to registration in the Land Registry should a purchaser want or need to do so.  From next year registration will be compulsory in all counties bar Dublin and Cork.



Etna said:


> Also as its a Registry of Deeds title would it be possible to transfer to Land Registry as the Land Registry seems to offer a State guarantee to title.  Not sure if I am I right there, have been reading PRA website and that is my understanding of what I read.


It can be done, and is often used to cure minor defects such as lost deeds.  There are 2 ways to do it;
1. Present the entire title and get the Land Registry to investigate it.  At the moment at least 30 years goo title should be shown (this will be reduced to 15 when the newconevancing bil comes into law)
2. If it's a straightforward title and there is a conveyance for value that is less than 5 years old for less than a million euros, get the solicitor to certify title, and it is registered without further investigation.

Option 2 has the advantage of being much faster - if should be done in a couple of months, whereas a full investigation can take years (depending on the circumstances of the case).


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## Etna (12 Jul 2009)

Thanks for that reply. Have been told that it would cost €1,000 to transfer from Registry of Deeds to Land Registry and they would probably only grant Possessory Title for 20 years. Not sure what that means but it sounds like squatters rights to me and would make a sale difficult if not impossible.

I am trying to get a guarantee that we have suffered no loss through our title deed being lost, that the reconstituted deed is as good as the original, but to me that fact that Land registry would grant Possessory Title for 20 years before granting full title seems to point to a definite loss.

We bought this house newly built in 1982 and in 2002 finished paying off the mortage.  We tried to get our original deeds back for the last 7 years and only discovered last year that they had been missing from 1992.


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## j26 (13 Jul 2009)

Etna said:


> Have been told that it would cost €1,000 to transfer from Registry of Deeds to Land Registry and they would probably only grant Possessory Title for 20 years.
> 
> ... fact that Land registry would grant Possessory Title for 20 years before granting full title seems to point to a definite loss.



I don't know who told you that The Land Registry generally tries to give absolute title - that's the reason that investigations can take so long.  Possessory title is usually only given in extreme circumstances.


Do you still have the original mortgage deed? That can constitute a good root of title, and when the new legislation goes through, it will be old enough (>15 years) to be considered as sufficient for registration.  Hang off a year or so (unless you are planning to sell), and it should be fine.


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