# Period between death and probate



## rockofages (27 May 2009)

My father left me as Executor of his will, something which is already proving difficult!

I have not taken out probate yet (still waiting on Death Certifiicate) and already there is an attempted land grab going on. One particular beneficiary is claiming that their share of my late father's estate became their's the day he died.

Can someone tell me who legally owns the estate between death and probate? I would have thought it still legally belongs to my father.

TIA.


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## mf1 (27 May 2009)

Everything belongs to the estate of your late father. There can be no formal vesting of any property until Probate is extracted. 

When you talk about "land grab" what precisely are you referring to?  Is it taking possession?  Trying to sell? 

There are insurance issues - as in as executor you are responsible for preserving and insuring the estate. There are income issues - any profit rightly belongs to the estate.

There are some estates where it can be very useful to employ  a solicitor - the mere fact of an outside professional and the occasional stiff letter asserting the legal situation can work wonders that don't work quite as well when its a lay executor. 

Mind you some beneficiaries are dreadful bullies and it is sometimes easier just to get on with the Probate, grit your teeth against  downright antagonism and rudeness and vest everything as quickly as possible. The job of executor can  be very unrewarding!

mf


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## rockofages (27 May 2009)

Thanks for the helpful reply mf.

I am doing everything to the letter of the law and upholding my responsibilities as the Executor; insurance sorted, property secured, etc.

By land grab I mean one of the beneficiaries is claiming he is now part owner of the family home and dictating what I can and can't do (for example, he says I'm not allowed stay overnight as I don't have his permission to do so).


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## Vanilla (28 May 2009)

As long as you understand that by taking on the role of executor ( you don't have to, whether named or not) you are opening yourself up to personal liability against all claims on the estate, whether they be from beneficiaries or the state ( income tax, CGT, DSW re the deceased and CAT re the beneficiaries), claims from creditors etc. 

By then doing a personal application it's frankly dangerous for you, especially when there are already problems. When you employ solicitors to do this they have safeguards in place to protect the executor ( who is their client, not the deceased nor the beneficiaries) and the necessary expertise to deal with problem beneficiaries and to obtain all clearances.

For you I don't see the benefit in saving money and opening yourself up to these liabilities. For the beneficiaries it's great, money saved from the estate ( depending on wording of will on how costs of estate are to be applied) and they still have all their protections by law to be able to pursue you.

I genuinely would advise anyone not to take on the role of executor without solicitors guidance where there are problems in the estate.


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## Bar101 (28 May 2009)

Having done it several times I would certainly agree with Vanilla that being an Executor can be a thankless task and often unrewarding.

However doing it yourself can save substantial sums of money as Solicitors can often charge a lot of money to settle estates.

If you plan to do this yourself then I suggest the following....
1. get a quote from a solicitor for acting as Executor (go to an expensive one)
2. write to all the beneficiaries clearly stating that all assets of the estate belong to the estate until probate goes through and that you as executor have sole control over those assets. 
3. state that you had planned to execute probate your self (without pay - but with any receipted expenses) but that following "objections" you are now considering handing this over to a solicitor (state estimated cost which will of course reduce everyones share). 
4. state that you will be selling the house and that any corrective work required will also come out of any monies in the estate. Also point out that as vacant possession is required it is not your intent to rent out the house but you may stay there in the short term to ensure the property is protected.
5. Commit to regular updates on the status of the estate but remind them that it will not be settled over night. Request their immediate comments / withdrawal of objections.

The petty objections / complaints will often go away when it is clearly spelled out what the cost of those objections will be to the pockets of those involved.


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## hitbit (29 Jun 2009)

Dont be foolish. You can be held responsible for so so much. Get a solicitor. It will cost you no more than €1,500 and he will deal with the Probate Court, Revenue Commissioners etc. You can deduct his/her fees from the estate.

hitbit


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## mf1 (29 Jun 2009)

hitbit said:


> Dont be foolish. You can be held responsible for so so much. Get a solicitor. It will cost you no more than €1,500 and he will deal with the Probate Court, Revenue Commissioners etc. You can deduct his/her fees from the estate.
> 
> hitbit



Where did you come up with a figure of 1.5K? If a solicitor is ultimately  to be held responsible for everything that can go wrong in a Probate, why does 1.5K seem reasonable to you? 

mf


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## mathepac (29 Jun 2009)

hitbit said:


> Dont be foolish. You can be held responsible for so so much. Get a solicitor. It will cost you no more than €1,500 and he will deal with the Probate Court, Revenue Commissioners etc. You can deduct his/her fees from the estate...


Your information is incomplete.

Even if represented by a solicitor, an executor is open to being sued by dissatisfied beneficiaries or by the Revenue for unpaid or underpaid taxes. In fact the beneficiaries and the Revenue don't care who the solicitor is, their remedy is to sue the executor.

The pricing you quote is bargain basement and I'm not sure if it includes outlays and VAT.


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## j26 (29 Jun 2009)

rockofages said:


> Can someone tell me who legally owns the estate between death and probate?


In actual fact, legally, the property vests in you.
You hold it on trust for the beneficiaries of the will until you can divest yourself of the legal interest by assent or deed.
If anyone claims that the property automatically became theirs on death you are entitled to (and in all likelihood, obliged) to tell that person to go away (feel free to use stronger words that suit your purposes)



rockofages said:


> By land grab I mean one of the beneficiaries is claiming he is now part owner of the family home and dictating what I can and can't do (for example, he says I'm not allowed stay overnight as I don't have his permission to do so).


If he will ultimately be the beneficiary under the will, I'd go a bit easy, but if he is only one of several people due to inherit, I'd ask him to start paying rent in respect of the other beneficiaries shares - that should put a few manners on him.


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## rosemartin (29 Jun 2009)

watch getting a solicitor they have no respect for you in your breavement,  they generally charge a percentage of the total estate as a fee, by this i mean if the deceased left 10,000 in cash but the property they owned was worth say 200,000 the solicitor will charge  a percentage of 210,000, usually the fee is around 3per cent which could leave very little cash, all the advice above is correct, you can do it yourself and the probate office is very helpfully,  I would avoid a solicitor as i am speaking from personal experience,  if you do decide to get one get the fee sorted out at the start, if they don't give you one walk away and find another


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