# Despondent about redundancy package



## Futureguy (8 Nov 2019)

Hi all,
I’m just after finishing my first consultation am after being let know my role is being made redundant. 

To say I’m upset by the package they are giving (large multinational) is an understatement.
19 years service. No issues with performance ever.

I’m the last person in Ireland. Everyone else that has left the business has received 2 statutory and 4 weeks.

I’m offered 2 weeks statutory plus the difference between the 600 cap and my weekly earnings why’s accounts to about an extra week per year. So I’m getting 3 weeks, everyone else has received 6 weeks.

I have no worlds. Does anyone have advice on how to position myself to perhaps negotiate this.


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## Peanuts20 (8 Nov 2019)

Firstly an employer has no obligation to pay you anything above and beyond statutory. However if they have changed the terms that I suggest your first step should be to ask for a copy of their redundancy and HR policies to understand what has and has not changed. Length of service and performance is not relevant in a case like this. I think a simple question as to why this change has occurred, when it occurred and why you were not informed of this might also be good


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## Steven Barrett (8 Nov 2019)

Did they tell you why there is a difference between your payment and everyone else?


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## elcato (8 Nov 2019)

Is redundancy not capped at 2 years wage ? That said 3 x 19 weeks is not 104.


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## misemoi (8 Nov 2019)

Sorry to hear this. Unfortunately employers can change severance terms. However, if you are the last employee and everyone else got extra, I'd write to them requesting that they pay you the same. You've nothing to lose. At this stage it might be payroll in another office in a different country processing it, so they might not be familiar with what happened in the past.


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## Easel (8 Nov 2019)

I feel your pain on this one. It is very unfair, especially after 19 years. Do you have any leverage to help negotiate? I would be exploring every option available considering the difference in the figures. Given your length of service a very large portion of the ex gratia payment (assuming 4 weeks) will be tax free. 

I would contact the WRC and see what they say




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## elcato (8 Nov 2019)

This happened in a company I worked for when they had a second round of redundancies. The second group of which there were 2 negotiated a better deal because of the precedence of the earlier redundancy package so negotiate on that basis.


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## Brendan Burgess (8 Nov 2019)

Why did you not accept redundancy earlier when it was being offered? 

If they asked you to stay to tidy up affairs, did you not do an agreement with them on the terms? 

What level are you at?  Were you the MD or were you security? 

Brendan


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## Futureguy (8 Nov 2019)

Hi all thanks for the volume and quality of response.

I am the last Irish worker. There were 450 in 2008, 70 in 2011, 7 in 2016 and now just me working from home. I performed a different business function to the 7 so my role was kept.

They say the redundancy package is on a case by case basis and reflects the length of service and salary of the employee.

Even in UK, where the redundancy is capped at 12 years service (1 year salary), that package would be far superior to what I’ve been offered. I’m essentially being offered about 30% less than any UK employee in the last 10 years and 100% less than every single Irish employee.

1 sick day in 8 years, ************************* disciplinary record, lead by example with integrity at all times.  I just cannot understand it  It’s a big multinational.

As an aside, the WRC have been completely incompetent.


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## Futureguy (9 Nov 2019)

19 years of loyalty and to be screwed over like this is unbelievable.  To put into context, as I did the actual maths. Any other Irish employee would be looking at nearly treble the lump sum. Any other UK employee would be getting 50% more.


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## Brendan Burgess (9 Nov 2019)

As I have already asked:



Brendan Burgess said:


> Why did you not accept redundancy earlier when it was being offered?


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## Futureguy (9 Nov 2019)

Brendan Burgess said:


> As I have already asked:


It wasn’t offered to me. In relation to the other query, I was middle management.


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## mtk (9 Nov 2019)

Firstly I see where you are coming from .
If you have a boss you get on with I would simply state how you feel and what others got. 
Also was there ever any conversation or email during these last 11 years where you were promised  "something "? If yes that would be crucial to mention ASAP


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## Futureguy (9 Nov 2019)

I don’t think any conversation would hold weight unfortunately.

A question - is a potential future redundancy package a “benefit” of employment?


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## Thirsty (9 Nov 2019)

Kick up a fuss - you've nothing to lose. 

Threaten to sue for unfair dismissal.

There's an old saying, 

when the law is on your side; pound the law
when the facts are on your side; pound the facts
when neither are on your side; pound the table.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (9 Nov 2019)

The legal route might be fruitful.

If the firm no longer has a presence in Ireland they won't be interested in tooling up for a WRC hearing.

They might be more inclined to settle.


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## Futureguy (9 Nov 2019)

Thirsty said:


> Kick up a fuss - you've nothing to lose.
> 
> Threaten to sue for unfair dismissal.
> 
> ...



that’s the thing -  can’t they simply pull the Ex Gratia and leave me with just the statutory?


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## Leper (9 Nov 2019)

Have you a union/association to represent you? If not, you're sunk! Sorry!


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## Futureguy (9 Nov 2019)

Leper said:


> Have you a union/association to represent you? If not, you're sunk! Sorry!



nope.


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## Thirsty (9 Nov 2019)

"That’s the thing - can’t they simply pull the Ex Gratia and leave me with just the statutory?"

I believe that would be considered retribution and I think you would certainly have a case; employers aren't entitled to bully their employees.

I take it you have a written offer at this point?


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## Futureguy (9 Nov 2019)

Thirsty said:


> "That’s the thing - can’t they simply pull the Ex Gratia and leave me with just the statutory?"
> 
> I believe that would be considered retribution and I think you would certainly have a case; employers aren't entitled to bully their employees.
> 
> I take it you have a written offer at this point?



yep I got it written along with a breakdown.


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## Thirsty (9 Nov 2019)

Then reply back that you want what everyone else got & see what happens.


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## mtk (10 Nov 2019)

Thirsty said:


> Then reply back that you want what everyone else got & see what happens.



and put all the arguments in there.

2)do they need you do something in work over next few weeks/months?

3) could you ask for  anything else outplacement /garden leave/ retraining ?

fyi the legal route can be stressful.


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## Ceist Beag (11 Nov 2019)

On what basis are they making you redundant now? As you are working from home it cannot be on the basis of rental costs. Is anyone else in the company performing a similar role to yours? If I were you I would certainly look for some expert advice on the matter and not take this lying down. The important thing would be to do as much homework before you go back to them - equip yourself as best you can in order to best argue your case.


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## Sunny (11 Nov 2019)

I am sorry but there is not much you can do. You have lost your position of strength if they don't need you to carry out any business functions anymore. I was in a similar situation to yourself but I insisted on negotiating my redundancy package at the same time as everyone else and as they needed me for the winding up of the business, I negotiated a golden handcuff in the form of extra redundancy but only if I stayed until the end. Not much use to you I know. You have nothing to lose by making your feelings clear and don't be afraid to contact seniors in the multinational company to make them aware but legally, you don't really have a case. It stinks though and is bad form but to be fair to the company, there might be things outside their control. I know in banking for example, regulators in some Countries are clamping down on redundancy payments that might be deemed excessive. On the flip side, you could take a case and the company might settle to avoid PR but as they are leaving Ireland, they probably don't care......


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## DeeKie (12 Nov 2019)

At a minimum put your complaint in writing and send it to the most senior person responsible for the Irish business. Keep your tone firm, reasonable and say that you simply wish to have the same as others. Put in every argument that you can think of that is not made up.


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## Futureguy (13 Nov 2019)

DeeKie said:


> At a minimum put your complaint in writing and send it to the most senior person responsible for the Irish business. Keep your tone firm, reasonable and say that you simply wish to have the same as others. Put in every argument that you can think of that is not made up.



I am the most senior person in Ireland. I have a letter sent to HR and am awaiting a response.


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## galwegian44 (14 Nov 2019)

My sympathies FutureGuy on the loss of your job.

I was in a similar position to yourself with a large US multi-national working from home as the last employee. Fortunately for me, I received the exact same package as my colleagues despite a difference of 12 years between the first offering and my own offer. In the interim I wondered if I might be fobbed off at the end with an inferior package but the HR person stated that the company had set a precedent in Ireland with the first offering.

I don't believe that legally they were obliged to offer me the same package (circumstances had changed) but there is nothing to be lost in arranging a meeting and stressing that a precedent was set with the first offer of 2 statutory + 4 weeks. Prepare well, be calm but forceful and see where you get. Talk to the most seniot HR person you can get access to.

Best of luck.


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## Futureguy (14 Nov 2019)

galwegian44 said:


> My sympathies FutureGuy on the loss of your job.
> 
> I was in a similar position to yourself with a large US multi-national working from home as the last employee. Fortunately for me, I received the exact same package as my colleagues despite a difference of 12 years between the first offering and my own offer. In the interim I wondered if I might be fobbed off at the end with an inferior package but the HR person stated that the company had set a precedent in Ireland with the first offering.
> 
> ...



thanks all for the comments. I took some professional advice and have clearly stated to them there is clear precedent with every redundancy package offered in Ireland.

They started the most recent meeting stating there are not negotiating and left the meeting stating they will discuss again with business. I dissected every argument for giving me the reduced package and they have no real answer. They are just doing their job. 

I now play a waiting game. Whether they are fobbing me off or not, I don’t know but if I get an unfavourable response, I meet with one one the top solicitors in employment law who will lay out a clear path for me.


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## JoeRoberts (14 Nov 2019)

If you are the only person to receive this level of payment then it is highly unusual.
Precedence is very strong in this area so if you take a case you have a v good chance of getting an equal package.

You would need to contact the WRC, I don't think a solicitor will be of much benefit considering the cost.
Advise the company that you intend following the WRC route to get the same package as the others - if they are winding up the company ( legally closing it ) they won't want this hanging over them.
See below for a taste of how the WRC views the reasonableness of ex-gratia settlements. There are industry norms that create precedence but in your unusual case your company is not following it's own norm. Something doesn't seem right.









						Anne O'Connell Solicitors, AOC Solicitors, Solicitors in Dublin, Specialists in Employment Law
					

Anne O'Connell Solicitors, AOC Solicitors, Solicitors in Dublin, Specialists in Employment Law




					aocsolicitors.ie


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## Futureguy (15 Nov 2019)

JoeRoberts said:


> If you are the only person to receive this level of payment then it is highly unusual.
> Precedence is very strong in this area so if you take a case you have a v good chance of getting an equal package.
> 
> You would need to contact the WRC, I don't think a solicitor will be of much benefit considering the cost.
> ...



It is hugely comforting to see that this is taken seriously. Out of over 400 workers in Ireland who have served the company across a number of areas, I am the only one getting a package that is not 2+4 weeks.
I have make my points very clear to the business and they have agreed to review the matter.


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## Bronte (15 Nov 2019)

Futureguy said:


> It is hugely comforting to see that this is taken seriously. Out of over 400 workers in Ireland who have served the company across a number of areas, I am the only one getting a package that is not 2+4 weeks.
> I have make my points very clear to the business and they have agreed to review the matter.


 I wouldn't threaten legals until you see what they come back with.  We had situation a bit like yours.  We sent a carefully worded email with the arguments and mentioned we had visited a top law firm (I had with the kids for half an hour costing €100 without opening a casefile) and just casully mentioned it in the email. Waited for their response and they consulted their lawyers and one of the top three accountancy firms and they paid us what we were looking for.  But we were on stronger labour rights than you have.  This is a very hard time for you and it's absolutely not to the firms credit that they would hang you out to dry when you hung on to suit them until the end.  Your stress levels must be unbearable. I know others who fought too.  Many do succeed.  And don't forget, thing will look better later no matter how bad they look right now.  Best of luck.  

You've done some good too. Any employee reading this should take note to get the redudancy package deal in writing in the event they are asked to continue after everybody else has left.  And never ever rely on oral conversations or assumptions based on what others got.


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## Futureguy (15 Nov 2019)

Yeah I have l have learned a huge lesson here and hope people realise that, no matter how much you trust your employees, get everything in writing.

I’ll wait and see what happens Monday. They don’t realise the poor position they are in in some regards.


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## Futureguy (16 Nov 2019)

Can anyone recommend a top employment law solicitor in either Cork, Limerick or, preferably, Dublin?


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## NicolaM (16 Nov 2019)

Richard Grogan.


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## Futureguy (17 Nov 2019)

I think a lot of their case as to how they can treat me differently is that they were bought by an investment group in 2017 and changed name, that they are a new company, and since I am the first and only employee in Ireland to be made redundant in this new company, there is no precedence.

I did tell them very clearly last week, however, that a UK employee received the same package in 2019 as did all other in UK since 2007. I’m also sure that someone let go in another European office this year also got the same as their counterparts let go in the last decade in the same location. I’m also pretty certain that the fact they are a new company has no legal ground in this matter.


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## Sunny (18 Nov 2019)

Be careful about the precedence argument. There is nothing to stop redundancy packages being changed. I work in financial services and have seen packages go from 2+6 to 2+4 to 2+2 in the same company. Pretty sure the packages in Aer Lingus got progressively worse over the years as well. Precedence is an argument but I wouldn't be relying on it from a legal point of view. I would state your case that you remained with the company until the end and missed out on other employment opportunities in the meantime on the assumption that you would get the same package as your colleagues.


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## dereko1969 (18 Nov 2019)

Futureguy said:


> I think a lot of their case as to how they can treat me differently is that they were bought by an investment group in 2017 and changed name, that they are a new company, and since I am the first and only employee in Ireland to be made redundant in this new company, there is no precedence.
> 
> I did tell them very clearly last week, however, that a UK employee received the same package in 2019 as did all other in UK since 2007. I’m also sure that someone let go in another European office this year also got the same as their counterparts let go in the last decade in the same location. I’m also pretty certain that the fact they are a new company has no legal ground in this matter.


Would TUPE law not kick in there with regards to precedent on redundancy payments?


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## Futureguy (18 Nov 2019)

Hi all thanks for your advice.

I have agreed in principle on an improved offered, pending some small extras. While it is not the same as all Irish employees, it is better and suits us. I do get the sense that fighting for any more would be a waste of time and the excess won would be eaten up by tax and solicitors. It would also be hugely stressful for me at a time where I need to focus on retraining and getting a new job.


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## Sunny (19 Nov 2019)

Best of luck.


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## Bronte (20 Nov 2019)

Futureguy said:


> Hi all thanks for your advice.
> 
> I have agreed in principle on an improved offered, pending some small extras. While it is not the same as all Irish employees, it is better and suits us. I do get the sense that fighting for any more would be a waste of time and the excess won would be eaten up by tax and solicitors. It would also be hugely stressful for me at a time where I need to focus on retraining and getting a new job.


I would agree with you there.  Not worth it. But well done you on the improved offer.  You're at a time of high employment in Ireland so the timing couldn't be better.  You never know what's around the corner.  Let us know later how you get on.


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