# shared sewer



## decodiva (24 Feb 2010)

our neighbours kitchen waste sewer extends into our garden and goes into the main sewer on our side of the garden.we are ready to pour foundations for new extension but just encountered this problem.the neighboours are refusing to move their waste pipe to their side .we want to move access to our  sewer to far side of new extension as all of the waste etc will be moving in new design.
we have offered to re route their waste pipe to their side and to pay for this work.
they are still refusing.
so i suppose my question is if the neighbours pipe stays under our extension and if there is a problem with it down the road ,can they access their pipe from what will then be my dining room and if yes who is liable for costs of same.
thanks


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## onq (24 Feb 2010)

Is this a private sewer or a public sewer?

ONQ.


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## raven (24 Feb 2010)

This sounds similar to the issue which I encountered:
http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=132674

Think it depends also on whether there is a legal wayleave in place, to access it and so on. It might be on your title, you would need to check with your solicitor.
I'm not sure what the scenario is if there is no wayleave, - there might be implicit consent, - you would need to talk to your solicitor.
As omq says, - it seems to make a big difference if its a public or private sewer, - if its public you have far less options.


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## DBK100 (24 Feb 2010)

decodiva said:


> .we want to move access to our  sewer to far side of new extension as all of the waste etc will be moving in new design.
> we have offered to re route their waste pipe to their side and to pay for this work.
> they are still refusing.
> so i suppose my question is if the neighbours pipe stays under our extension and if there is a problem with it down the road ,can they access their pipe from what will then be my dining room and if yes who is liable for costs of same.
> thanks



                  decodiva,
This is certainly a matter that should have been dealt with before now. During the design process the positions of all drainage should have been determined, then worked with, worked around, or prompted a design change.

You can alter and reposition your drains as you wish, however you simply cannot alter a neighbour's drains without their permission. Encountering a neighbour, who does not wish to accommodate your requirements, for whatever, is not at all uncommon and should have been anticipated. 
It does seem from your post that you don't have any building professional advising you.

It would be entirely unacceptable to have the only access point to resolve problems such as blockages located in your dining room floor. You must comply with all requirements of the Building Regulations in this respect.
Refer to Technical Guidance Document H (Drainage and Waste Water Disposal) for information on access to relieve blockages and also on construction of foundations & walls over drains.

Having a man-hole or access chamber to a foul drain located within your house would also be highly undesirable for you and would be a major problem for new owners if you ever sold on.
Can you imagine the potential consequences if you were away on holiday and a blockage occurred? Your neighbour would be left with no means of clearing the blockage and your house could be in quite a state when you returned.
[broken link removed]

Your neighbour has an easement over your property with respect to this drain, which will be owned in common. This is a legal right. I would strongly advise you to take professional advice *now.*
If your neighbour is refusing to accommodate you, it is highly likely that they are aware of their rights and will be watching closely what is happening.

Do not take a chance on this matter.
  TAKE PROFESSIONAL ADVICE -


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## jhegarty (24 Feb 2010)

DBK100 said:


> Your neighbour has an easement over your property with respect to this drain, which will be owned in common.




How do you know this ?


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## DBK100 (24 Feb 2010)

jhegarty said:


> How do you know this ?



I am making one or two assumptions:

1) that it is in fact a private drain and not a public sewer. If it were a public sewer the Op would have found the information they require here:
http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=132674
and would not be likely to pose this question.

2) that the neighbour's drainage which is passing under the Op's property is long established (i.e. the neighbour obviously hasn't recently come in and installed his drainage), or if the houses are within a more recent development, they have been constructed with the drainage layout described by the Op.


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## decodiva (24 Feb 2010)

it is a public sewer and the water works board have advised that best practice would be to have our neighbours have access to the sewer on their property


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## decodiva (24 Feb 2010)

we have professional architect design our plans so thought all was ok?


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## DBK100 (24 Feb 2010)

Very, Very confusing:

Thread title: "_shared sewer_".
Then:
"_my question is if the neighbours pipe stays under our extension and  if  there is a problem with it down the road..._"
Versus
"_it is a public sewer and the water works board have advised that..._"

So, is it a *Private Drain* within your neighbour's property,  becoming a *Common Private Drain* when it enters your property, or is it  in fact a *Publicly Owned Sewer*??

Did the "water works board" / Local Authority really give you there  approval to build over a publicly owner sewer & give you guidance on  how to go about it??
See this thread in relation to minimum distances from a public sewer:
http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=132674

Do you really have an RIAI registered architect involved who has only  ascertained the location of a public sewer (or private drain) impacting  on the works when you are about to build over it??
This should have been one of the first things picked up by the architect  at initial survey / feasibility stage.

You need to clarify the status of the drain / sewer and *do seek  proper advice on this matter as soon as possible.*

See here for explanation of what is a *Public Sewer* and what is a *Private Drain*:
http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...&gl=ie&sig=AHIEtbSQ8QsN45TKBM6Uj2qIsF2SsFie5w


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## onq (24 Feb 2010)

decodiva said:


> it is a public sewer and the water works board have advised that best practice would be to have our neighbours have access to the sewer on their property



Decodiva,

I'm sorry to hear this but you may have major problems proceeding with the work.
The issue arises as to whether your new build is to be built over the public sewer or near to it.
Others have referred to this thread http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=132674
Post #5 therein states the current position for works in Dublin City Council's functional area. This is based on a law which covers the country.

==============================
_
"6. BUILDING CLOSE TO A PUBLIC SEWER.

*In order to protect the public drainage infrastructure on or adjacent to a site, the following conditions will apply:

 6.1. * *No building may be constructed over the line of a public sewer; as per the Public Health Act 1878. **The Local Sanitary Authority requires a minimum clear distance of three metres to be maintained between sewers and all structures on site, including basement and foundations. Details of overhanging structures such as balconies must be agreed with the Local Sanitary Authority. This minimum clear distance will be increased if the sewer is greater than 3m deep or is greater than 375mm in diameter. See GDSDS Technical Documents on New Developments for more information.

 6.2. * *Foundation layout shall be submitted for the written approval of the Local Sanitary Authority, to show that no extra building load will be placed on the sewer.

6.3. A sewer condition survey (CCTV) of the sewer shall be carried out at the Developer's expense both before and after construction, to the requirements of the Local Sanitary Authority. Any damage to the sewer shall be notified to the Local Sanitary Authority and rectified at the Developer's expense. For further information and guidance see the Greater Dublin Strategic Drainage Study, Volume 2, New Development Policy.* _*"*

-----------------------------------

This Quotation

Please note all the instances of "*shall*" in this passage, whether it is to do with building over a public sewer or near to it.
"Shall" means the requirement mandatory, not optional/ discretionary.
Item 6.2 above seems to arise in relation to building "near" a public sewer, given the prohibition in Item 6.1 previously.

Local Authority

In relation to the document itself the only comfort I can offer is that it is Version 6.0 and it stated to be a draft on the cover - see the original thread for the link.
It may therefore not have in and of itself, force of law, but I have been rold by DCC that this is their working reference.
You should consult with the local authority Environmental Services Section and discuss this matter in full with them - before proceeding.

Competent Advice

Evidence of rights of way, easements and wayleaves is not always visible to the eye.
Issues that are not visible on the ground. or are hidden or are undergound can be most difficult to evaluate.
Even highly qualified and experienced persons can come across something which falls outside their experience from time to time.
Protection for members of the public and achieving competence in specialist matters - and building over drains is not normal - rests not with titles or qualification per se.
Competence can rest on whether the person offering advice has been diligent and researched the issue properly i.e. asked all the questions of the relevant persons and consulted the relevant legislation.
It also rests on the experience of the person you ask and having a meeting on site with an experienced person from the Council may yield the best resolution - after all, they are the ones who'll need access to the drain.

Legal Advice and Wayleaves

You should seek *competent* legal advice in relation to the private drain on your site.
I stress the word "competent" here because I ran into a lot of difficulty once due to relocating an existing drain on a site
There was a lot of agremenet about what to do with the drain no agreement as to how best to resolve matters legally between the parties.
We had differing opinions from the client's own solicitor and a Senior Counsel whom he queried and from whom we obtained a Counsel's Opinion.
My own reading of The Law of Easements and Profits á Prendre, which deals _inter alia_, with waleaves, rights of way and easements, suggested 4 resolutions.
You need definitive competent advice on the legals and relying on the local authority may not be the best way forward, expecially if you are in dispute or likely to be - take legal advice.


FWIW

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent persons should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at hand.
My best advice is that you should retain a competent building professional to advise you on these matters.


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## onq (24 Feb 2010)

DBK100 said:


> Very, Very confusing:
> (snip)
> See here for explanation of what is a *Public Sewer* and what is a *Private Drain*:
> http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...&gl=ie&sig=AHIEtbSQ8QsN45TKBM6Uj2qIsF2SsFie5w



Link leads to empty frames in my browser, DBK100 - as you say "very confusing" 

ONQ.


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## DBK100 (25 Feb 2010)

Try this, it will open it as a pdf:
[broken link removed]*private*%20*drains*%20*information*%20*leaflet*.pdf 
_Private Drains Information Leaflet._
Earlier link seems to work for me. Opens it as a google preview.

DBK100
http://www.mesh.ie


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## onq (25 Feb 2010)

DBK100 said:


> Try this, it will open it as a pdf:
> www.corkcity.ie/media/*private*%20*drains*%20*information*%20*leaflet*.pdf
> _Private Drains Information Leaflet._
> Earlier link seems to work for me. Opens it as a google preview.



Still can't see the preview panes contents in the original link.

It may be a firefox settings thing or an Internet Explorer preference thing.

Links with spaces [%20] don't seem to translate very well on this forum's html so its copy and paste job for the one above.

Luckily on the top left of the page the original link led to is an 82kb download link which I could click on and read the document.

Not confusing at all! 

ONQ.


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## DBK100 (25 Feb 2010)

Thanks ONQ, It must be a browser thing.
Anyway, if you type _Private Drains Information Leaflet _into google,
the PDF link comes up first to the Cork City PDF.

DBK100
http://www.mesh.ie


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## raven (25 Feb 2010)

onq said:


> Still can't see the preview panes contents in the original link.
> 
> It may be a firefox settings thing or an Internet Explorer preference thing.
> 
> ...



This is a very good document, a rare state document that actually has some clarity - clears up a lot of things for me as well.


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## igy (25 Feb 2010)

raven said:


> This is a very good document, a rare state document that actually has some clarity - clears up a lot of things for me as well.



Indeed, my parents have had to (along with other owners) force legal action on other users of their shared drain who wouldn't contribute to repair costs, perhaps if more people were aware of these issues it wouldn't have been such a hassle
It's almost a shame they didn't have the option of just blocking the drain at the point those people's waste entered it.


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## decodiva (30 Mar 2010)

Thank you to all for replying to my post.Thankfully my neighbour s have agreed to allow us to move their drain access to their garden.i am afraid to ask the council which type of sewer we have in our back  garden but presume it not a mains as we were granted full planning permission by planners and drainage engineers from the council have ok'd the new move of pipes.
Thankfully common sense seems to have triumphed !
Again many thanks for the advise!


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## picorette (31 Mar 2010)

I trust that you are aware that if you are changing access to a public sewer, then you have to inform the Local Authority and that they have to inspect and approve the completed work.


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