# Becoming a solicitor- via FE1 route - starting in 2011



## cmalone (26 Aug 2011)

Heard my nephew (40!) saying he wants to start doing this FE1 course to ultimately become a solicitor... is this not crazy and a potential waste of time. He's current mid mangt in public service...

any thoughts...


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## PaddyBloggit (26 Aug 2011)

I know of person who achieved honours in her degree when she qualified as a solicitor but she failed to get a job.

She's now a teacher having gone back to college to retrain.

I think he's mad but each to their own madness.

By all means do the study but tell him to hold onto his job ....


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## eastbono (26 Aug 2011)

If he can hold onto his job and if the course if part time tell him to go for it. Otherwise he is living in a dream world. If he can do it part time and it is good for his job he can apply for refund of fees etc.


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## cmalone (28 Aug 2011)

*Law*

Yes he can keep job and do part-time for the exams- they to complete professional training- he would need to take 2 years off. He would not get refund of fees from initial part (c. 5000 euro or less- with trax relief). He would get 'minimum' wage type salary and hopefully (if he got a law firm for apprenticeship) firm would pay for fees...


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## One (29 Aug 2011)

I did the FE1 exams while keeping the job I was in at the time. But there are hurdles between passing the FE1 exams and qualifying as a solicitor that are out of your nephew's hands. The first hurdle is trying to secure an apprenticeship with a solicitor which is very very difficult. The second is coping with a large pay cut while he is in Blackhall place and serving his apprenticehip. After Blackhall place, there is going to be a lot of difficulty getting a well paid job. 

I have a lot of friends who are solicitors and you should hear what they have to say about the profession, about the current job market and the stress levels of that vocation. If your nephew has friends or family who are in the legal business and are willing to help and advise them he is in a much stronger position than if he knows nobody in the legal profession. But honestly, look into securing an apprenticeship before sitting the FE1 exams and see first hand how difficult that is. Don't just take advice from the internet.


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## staff (29 Aug 2011)

I am not a solicitor but I work for a fairly large firm (not one of the big 5) where we used to have anything up to 7 or 8 apprentices at any one given time.  Right now we are down to 1 and once that person qualifies that will probably be it for the forseeable future anyway....... and they certainly wont be keeping that apprentice on as a qualified solicitor.


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## PaddyBloggit (29 Aug 2011)

*Pay halved for most solicitors, survey finds*

More here:

[broken link removed]

It might make your nephew think twice before deciding to head off in that direction.


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## One (30 Aug 2011)

My last comment would be to suggest to your nephew to get an opinion on this from the solicitor your family deals with most often (that is of course if you deal with the same one). Or just go and ask two or three solicitors who are successful as solicitors what they think. I guess I am saying that whatever he does, he should just be well informed about it first. This country will eventually improve again and do better economically, but just it is best to be aware of what is involved before embarking on the course.


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## mf1 (30 Aug 2011)

As a practicing solicitor...............

There is not currently enough  work for the profession anyway. Most offices (especially the smaller ones) are struggling and it's hard to see how the economy can afford to keep the larger offices running - think NAMA, HSE work..........

Its all about cutting back, trimming costs etc.,etc.  

I could not encourage a friend or family member to enter the profession unless they had independent means and did not need to earn a living.  

mf


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## cmalone (30 Aug 2011)

*feedback*

Thank you all for valuable advice and feedback- any suggestions for an alternative area of study - besides the law!

thanks


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## Purple (30 Aug 2011)

A law degree with a masters in business is a very good general base qualification.


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## McCrack (30 Aug 2011)

I'm an apprentice solicitor at the minute. I wouldn't discourage anybody wanting to enter the profession but like another poster has said you need to be very informed what you're getting into. It's not a career you just decide overnight you want to do. 

There are a lot of considerations particularly that your nephew is 40. Whilst this isn't a negative (I've come across many at that age or older enter the profession particularly the Bar) it might be a consideration if he has commitments such as family, mortgage etc.

The entrance exams are difficult and the training expensive although there are grants and the Law Society operate a bursary to help.

Apprentices are on minimum wage (many don't get paid at all) and many don't get paid while attending the professional course which is 6 months and then another 3 month stint in Blackhall.

There is the difficulty of getting a traineeship, it took me many years working in law offices in various capacities to finally get one. If your nephew has no connections in the profession this is going to be a big obstacle. 

Finally there are the prospects of a job once qualified, really the most dedicated and competent will succeed. It's a graft to qualify and a graft once practising. There will always be work for good solicitors. I work in a small practice but we specialise and market ourselves (as best we can within the advertising regulations) in a particular area and we are good at that and thankfully have plenty of work. 

Direct your nephew to the qualification process on the Law Society website, it has good information from apprentices and newly qualified solicitors sharing their experiences.

(O and finally I should say it's personally rewarding if you have a genuine interest in it, for me it's getting a good result for people, if it's an illusion of financial gain as the media like to portray of lawyers, look somewhere else)


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## onq (9 Sep 2011)

Hi cmalone,

Your nephew must be bored with his job in the public service!
Who in their right mind would abandon a permanent and pensionable for the legal profession right now!
mf1 and Mc Crack have given you and up-to-the-minute commentary there, while purple has suggested a slightly different route.

Personally, I think that if your nephew has a management degree or significant management experience he could build on that and move into the private sector.
That should be excitement enough to last him the rest of his life!

Older businesses are facing intense challenges to persist in the face of the continuing economic situation, which will involve going through a process of change management and redundancies.
Skills in personnel management and employment law will be an advantage to such firms.
New business start ups are happening all the time and they need gray(ing) heads on the boards to advise them.

Many of the below management courses have a law component, whether it be contract law or employment law.
Here are some options for him to consider if he chooses to take this advice.

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*Smurfit Business School*

Your nephew - assuming he has some capital behind him could contact the Smurfit Business School in Carysfort Avenue. 

According to a talk I attended there last year one graduate - a barrister - who achieved the MBA is now employed by NAMA.
However another lad who did the course fount it didn't slingshot him up the career ladder as he had hoped.
Over €30,000 for a one year MBA might be a bit steep for some to find out it didsn't deliver the results.
It was described as being a very intensive course with a lot of extra-curricular work.
You can basically forget about weekends and home life for the duration.

Smurfits appears to have maintained its world standings and its alumni network is considerable.
In the current challenging economic climate there is no certainty that graduates will walk straight into a job when they finish.

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*Trinity*

Alternatively, Trinity also runs some well- respected courses in the up-to-€10,000 range. Here is some information on one I looked at recently

_"...the postgraduate diploma in Project Management for your attention.    _ 
_Entry Requirements:  An honours degree (level 8) in Engineering or related subject, or a suitable professional qualification (a B.Sc. Surveying will be considered if the candidate is working in an engineering environment).    _

_A candidate without a relevant level 8 degree may be interviewed to establish his or her suitability for the course .  _

_On-line application is currently open on: [broken link removed]   Current application deadline: 31 August.  The application fee is non-refundable.    _
_Once the on-line application is made, please note that submission by post of (hard-copy) supporting documentation will be requested by PAC in Galway.   _
_In addition to degree transcripts, certificates and CV, two professional letters of reference (not academic) will be required.   _
_Please note – there is no need to fill out the online academic reference form, as for diploma courses, two professional references on company letter-head are required.   _

_EU fees for 2011-12 are: 5,750. Non-EU fees: 11,500.    Student levies of 85 euro also apply.   Academic fees are deductible for income tax purposes.    _
_EU fees are payable in two instalments: 1st September and 1st February.  _

_Our diploma courses are one-year, part-time Continuing Professional Development (CPD) courses aimed at those in full-time employment in Ireland.  All our diploma courses are graded at level 9 on the National Framework of Qualifications.    _

_Lectures are held on Friday evenings from 7.00 - 10.00pm and Saturday mornings 9.30am - 12.30pm over two twelve-week terms.  Course dates:   _

_Friday 30 September 2011 - Saturday 17 December 2011  _
_Friday 20 January 2012 – Saturday 7 April 2012 (there may be no lectures Easter weekend).   There are two exams in May.  _

_For general information on application procedures see:  [broken link removed]  _

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*Bluebrick and Springboard*

Alternatively, Bluebrick.ie and the associated [broken link removed] are also useful places to start.
A post graduate course is not cheap to pursue at circa €5,400, but it takes you to a Level 9 NFQ with good standing and an overview of the profession he has already developed a skillset in.
For people on Jobseekers for 6 months, such courses are offered FREE. I post that here for what its worth in case other readers can avail of it.

As with Trinity, a Fetac Level 8 degree under his belt already would be a distinct advantage, but Springboard also operate a Recognition of Prior Learning [RPL] process, so people with commensurate experienced can be accredited and avail of the courses.
Some professional bodies will not recognize this RPL process, but the post-graduate qualifications appear to be [broken link removed] [National Framework Qualifications] accredited.

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*Fás/ Solas*

Fás ran a Fetac Level 6 course in Management last year delivered by the  which is a broad-based course at a level those without formal qualifications can attempt.
The course - S29Z -offered the core modules of Business Management, Finance and Employment Law and was a very good way of testing one's ability or gaining recognition for prior learning.
The course currently offered by BMI the Diploma in Business Management, may not be exactly the same course, but  seems to offer the same kinds of modules - he should check this.

In my case, despite having maintained my professional competence over the years by attending courses, seminar and undertaking self-directed study, I found it to be a challenging course.
The employment law section in particular required a high degree of extra-curricular online study just to get your head around some of the emerging bodies of law, like [broken link removed] and [broken link removed].
The course was also full-time, two days a week, with four 105minute sessions per day (one and three quarter hours each) two fifteen minute breaks and half hour for lunch.

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*Summary*

The point I'm making is that leaving a civil service middle management position to move to a full-on learning course like the Smurfit MBA might be too much, too soon.
Undertaking a middle-level broad-based course would be a useful means of easing back into academic studies and achieving a result, as opposed to hitting a wall.

No courses or qualifications offer job security.
I think your nephew might therefore be well-advised to consider a part time MBA such as those noted above and maintain his position while achieving it.
After that, he may be able to avail of a "sabbatical" or "career break" option from his civil service position, which could allow him to dip his toe into the water yet hold a reserve position.

I hope this brief trawl through the options assists in his deliberations.
There are a lot of ways forward for a guy turning 40.

Without suggesting he avails of it, it may be worth noting that the cut off point for seeking permanent residency (as opposed to a temporary permit or working visa) in some countries (Canada, Australia) is 44 as of this time last year - I haven't checked recently.

ONQ.


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## brenda24 (19 Sep 2011)

I am absolutely astounded by your post. My advice would be-don't do it. I qualified as a solicitor last year and was unable to secure work. The latest statistics from the Law Society state (and I think they're probably a gross underestimation) that there are 1,100 unemployed solicitors in Ireland. Aside from the huge financial sacrifices of undertaking the training, there is no suggestion of there being a demand for more solicitors in the near future. There is already a dearth of work for those currently practising.


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## Stumblebum (3 Jan 2012)

Hello all, I wonder could you offer me some advice?

I currently work in construction project management in the public sector and have a master's degree in quantity surveying (though I'm unchartered). 

I was thinking about going back and giving the FE1s a go this year, as I really enjoyed the law component of my previous studies and I hear that a quantity surveyors with legal qualifications are cleaning up at the moment. Is there any truth to this? Would my background help me to get a training contract at a specialist firm? 

As an alternative, I was also considering applying for the Diploma in Arbitration in UCD, would anyone recommend this?

I have no major financial commitments and for now job satisfaction is a much higher priority for me than income. I realise how valuable a permanent job in the public service is these days but the absolute lack of career progression is unbearable to me at this stage.


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