# Building our house - where to start?!



## Mooples (4 Dec 2012)

I'm new to this - I've been browsing through different topics but as you can see it's my first post. So apologies if I'm putting this in the wrong place or if this has been done to death.

As the title suggests, we're about to start the ball rolling on getting our house built. We are getting the site from a family member (yet to be picked, we're hoping our architect will help us pick the most suitable one)

From what I have researched so far, everything seems to be so chicken and egg! I can't get an idea of a budget without knowing the design etc of house, I need an architect for that, yet any I've spoken to can't really give me an idea of their fees without knowing what the budget of the house is. Most have said they work on a percentage of costs fee basis. 

It feels so daunting going into a relationship with a professional not knowing what the bill will be. And also, if we decide on high spec insulation for example, this will mean higher fees for the architect, similarly if we choose underfloor heating or an expensive kitchen? And also, if the architect is looking after the tendering process, don't they have a vested interested in picking a non-cheap option so that their fee will be higher? I'm a bit confused by it all! 

We are not expecting it to be cheap to hire a professional to help design etc our dream home but I just find the whole process very daunting, despite the fact that everyone I've spoken to has pointed me in the direction of the RIAI guidelines etc. If anyone has any advice for me, I'd really appreciate it.

We have yet to decide whether or not we're going to go direct labour or get a contractor. Eeek! Very confused....


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## Dr.Debt (4 Dec 2012)

Been there, done that and understand your frustration and unfortunately I dont believe there is any quick-fix answer for you........

I see building a house like a spectrum. There is a whole range of options, costs and outcomes when approaching a house build

The safest option on one side of the spectrum involves getting the best Architect you can find, giving him a well thought out brief and letting him get on with the fabulous design and supervision of your build. This option will most likely give you the best outcome and by far the highest cost !!

On the other side of the spectrum, you engage your wife's mother's brother's nephew who you believe is good at drawing and charge him with drawing up your plans. You will then decide that you know about as much about building as any Architect Builder and Engineer and you start to build the house with direct labour. This will give you the worst possible outcome and probably the lowest build cost

There are hundreds of other ways of approaching the task which fall in between these two extremes of the budget. This will involve skimping on some or all of the following - Architect, Engineer, Building Materials, Supervision cost or Workmanship.

So obviously the goal is to strike the optimum balance between the final outcome and the overall cost and that's not easy
especially if money is tight as it usually is


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## kkelliher (4 Dec 2012)

Unless you have an endless pot of money or access to same you simply need to set a budget. You then tell the architect what this is and let him base his fee on this figure (remembering that his fee must fall within the budget and not in addition to it). He can then design a house based on your budget. If the design is too small you will then be able to increase in line with an increased budget etc. a good quantity surveyor will be a great benifit in respect to costings

You should also be able to find an architect to propose a lump sum fee in any event. I work with clients alot of whom have agreed lump sum fees in advance without any % link. Shop around but i would be supprised if any architect would turn down work if approached for a lump sum fee in todays climate.

Based on alot of experience sorting out post contract disputes, if you know little about building you need to spend alot of time thinking about the direct labour route as it wil need alot of your time, professional supervision and costs

Best of luck with your project and dont rush to site. Spend as much time as you can possible spend working though each and every aspect and cost before you engage any builder


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## Mooples (5 Dec 2012)

Dr.Debt said:


> On the other side of the spectrum, you engage your wife's mother's brother's nephew who you believe is good at drawing and charge him with drawing up your plans. You will then decide that you know about as much about building as any Architect Builder and Engineer and you start to build the house with direct labour. This will give you the worst possible outcome and probably the lowest build cost



Thanks for your reply. THIS is exactly what I don't want! 

The below is what I am leaning towards at the moment, and please feel free to tell me if it's a stupid idea...

Get an architect to draw up plans, get it through to planning stages, etc. Do the best research that I can, using local word of mouth recommendations, to find the individual tradespeople to carry out the work. My brother is a builder but lives to far away to build the house for us, but he did say he would be available to advise on the ordering of materials and to help with timetables etc. 

I would like the architect then to do regular site visits to oversee the work and make sure it's all up to speed and being done correctly and to sign off on each stage. 

This way, I'd probably end up paying the architect in the region of €15k, but would save on paying a project manager/contractor. 

Opinions welcome on this please!

Thanks


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## Mooples (5 Dec 2012)

kkelliher said:


> (remembering that his fee must fall within the budget and not in addition to it).


 
See this was what I wasn't sure of. If our budget was €250k, does that mean his fees are included, so thanks for clarifying. 



kkelliher said:


> Based on alot of experience sorting out post contract disputes, if you know little about building you need to spend alot of time thinking about the direct labour route as it wil need alot of your time, professional supervision and costs.


 
I'm self employed and work from home, so I do have a good bit of spare time. I'm wondering if I'd be biting off more than I can chew though. I do love a challenge, in saying that!



kkelliher said:


> Best of luck with your project and dont rush to site. Spend as much time as you can possible spend working though each and every aspect and cost before you engage any builder


 Good advice, thank you!


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## Mooples (5 Dec 2012)

I clearly need to get used to the quoting thing - apologies for the messy post above!


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## Dr.Debt (5 Dec 2012)

If neither you or your spouse are familiar with construction, and you don't intend to be on site daily and you dont plan in getting your hands dirty and taking an active management role in the project, then I would avoid direct labour completely.

I would instead go the route of Architect - Appointing a main contractor - Architect supervising main contractor. Main contractor responsible for hiring the trades and responsible for the end result


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## Mooples (5 Dec 2012)

Thanks for the reply. I wouldn't say we are familiar with construction, but we wouldn't be alien to it. The house is being built on a family farm so other family members would be more familiar than we are. We'd both like to be on site daily I'd say. Re getting hands dirty, would definitely like to muck in as much as possible and rope family into it too!


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## Leo (5 Dec 2012)

Mooples said:


> I clearly need to get used to the quoting thing - apologies for the messy post above!


 
Fixed that for you. 

To intersperse your comments with quoted text, just make sure each passage of quoted text starts with the 'QUOTE=username;xxxxx' (enclosed in square brackets) and ends in '[/QUOTE]'.


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## Mooples (5 Dec 2012)

Cheers for that


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## bren1916 (6 Dec 2012)

We built a fair sized extension recently and a few thoughts;

1. Engage an Architect to design/draw up plans/submit to planning etc (maybe meet a couple and choose who you feel good about...

2. Put finished design out to tender to General Building Contractors (i'd say 5 and choose one based on cost/previous work) you will still have lots of decisions to make re finishes/furnishing etc

3. Employ Arch to make periodic site visits/inspections (keeps the builder honest) and can act as a buffer between you & builder if needs be

Hope this helps..

Brendan.


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## kkelliher (6 Dec 2012)

bren1916 said:


> you will still have lots of decisions to make re finishes/furnishing etc


 
If you want to have the best Contract price, as stated previously spend the time and have every item possible selected prior to going to tender. This way you are getting the best achievable price on every item in a competitive situation which you will not necessarily have after appointing a contractor.

When this is done properly the value of variation on the price should be minimal. You will generally always have some changes due to actual details not invisaged at the start but if every item is specificed and clear then the scope for variatiosn is reduced.

I have just completed two projects both of which are circa 1 million domestic projects and in both the variation % over the contracted value is 3-4%. If you spend the time pre contract you will save money in the long run.


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## Mooples (6 Dec 2012)

Thanks for the feedback everyone. The architect I most like the sound of and look of porfolio wise is so slow to reply to my emails re appointments etc. I'm wondering if he's like this now before he even has the job, what he'd be like to actually work with! But he sounds lovely, and has a great reputation. Also, I'm taking it as a good sign that he's busy...


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## kkelliher (6 Dec 2012)

Communication is key in a building project therefore if you wish to use him you should discuss this with him well in advance of engaging his services


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## Superman (8 Dec 2012)

One thing you are forgetting is the construction drawings.
The way Part L [the insulation section] of the B.Regs is nowadays, it is effectively impossible to construct a building without every detail of a house worked out and understand in a holistic sense. 
A further problem with direct labour is that there is noone who is responsible for build quality - other than yourself. It can be quite difficult trying to get electricians to build to best practice for airtightness if you aren't certain you know what that is.


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