# Paid about half quoted price for kitchen. Now they want more before they fit it.



## Noilheart (24 Aug 2013)

I have ordered a new kitchen from xyz Ltd  and they are supposed to fit next week. 

I have twice received a letter from them stating that I will have to pay a certain amount when they arrive to fit the kitchen otherwise they won't be fitting it.  I have already paid  about half the quoted cost of the kitchen incl appliances. 

The problem is I am finding they are not very informative  when it comes to my end of things, such as -  have the appliances I ordered arrived at their store yet? Emails not replied to etc. Or what to do about old pipework. 

I called in there today and while the people I spoke to were polite and tried to be helpful they could not confirm that they have the appliances I ordered as the warehouse was closed. 

I think they are a bit too forward with money demands but I have no guarantee that I will get the goods ordered. 

Just wondering if anyone here had dealings with them previously.


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## Sue Ellen (24 Aug 2013)

Pay by credit card and check with your provider about financial security provided before doing so.


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## Skybox (24 Aug 2013)

Have you not signed some sort of order or agreement with them?  I did with my kitchen fitters. 

So far you have paid a 50% deposit, which is standard, and they have reminded you twice that the kitchen won't be fitted until it's fully paid for. This seems fair enough and is my experience using a different company.  (I used credit card to pay the deposit. )

As for the appliances, their whereabouts at the moment is really not an issue. Asking about them seems like an unusual query for me and not something the shop staff would readily know. Obviously if they don't show up with the kitchen next week that's a problem, but there's no reason to assume the worst right now. 

I'm not sure there is a real problem here?


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## Noilheart (24 Aug 2013)

Hi Sue Ellen, thanks but  I do not have a credit card, only a debit card.


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## Noilheart (24 Aug 2013)

Hi Skybox,

I did sign a docket, but the appliance model numbers or brand is not shown on it.  There is a lady there who is in charge of ordering the appliances and she gave me a docket showing the  model numbers and brand names of the ones I want.  I called in there today and she could not confirm that she had the appliances I ordered and said she would ring me later, but did not do so.   I am not happy about this as the fitting date is on Tuesday and they expect me to part with thousands on the day.  I need the assurance that the apppliances I ordered will be available.  Particularly the cooker, as I previously tried to order it from DID but they said it would be months before they could get it in from England.


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## Padraigb (24 Aug 2013)

It looks simple enough to me: when they bring the kitchen for installation, the appliances should also be brought. When you verify that, you should be prepared to pay the amount requested. If the appliances are delayed, you should delay the appropriate part of the contracted price.


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## Noilheart (24 Aug 2013)

The appliances are not due until Wednesday, they want all the money (bar about €500) on Tuesday.  I want confirmation, before I pay out any more money, that the appliances I ordered are available.   I have previously had bad experience with Mastercare where they tried to fob off a different model washing machine on me.  I think it doesn't add up that they cannot, at this late stage, tell the the position.


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## Sandals (25 Aug 2013)

Noilheart said:


> I think it doesn't add up that they cannot, at this late stage, tell the the position.



I would agreed. A fool and their money are easily parted. Better to sort issues now (if they are going to be any) than after they'v the money. 

Equally I would have no problem in any company requesting even 100% of the money before delivery. Previously we ordered a full unit of doors from a joinery which were fully glazed. I was to pay the monies owed the day before delivery or the morning of (if I wanted to see the units before transport). I went in the day before expecting to see the units all made. However no glass, they had no problem in driving me to another factory to check the glass etc. I drove myself and all glass correct on measuring etc. 

Ask to speak to manager etc for peace of mind.


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## Noilheart (25 Aug 2013)

Thanks Sandals.  I did speak to the manager when I called in on Saturday but he did not seem to know anything about my kitchen.  I will try yet again tomorrow.


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## eggerb (26 Aug 2013)

Only pay them when you see the appliances are the ones you ordered. I know of somebody who had problems with Tierney Kitchens having paid the full amount. They had a lot of chasing to do ... emails not answered, faxes missing, calls not returned etc.


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## mercman (26 Aug 2013)

At this point in time, let them deliver your kitchen and appliances. Then pay them and if they don't fit it, get somebody else to fit it. There are plenty of people / tradesmen well capable to fit kitchens, who simply have no work.

I'd prefer to get someone else to fit my kitchen rather than have o new kitchen at all.

Without scaring you, but this entire sounds a bit smelly. Print off all of this thread and send it to your solicitor' cos I do think you're going to need their services (and not to install the kitchen).

Make a comprehensive note of times and dates and conversations you have had with these people.


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## TTI (26 Aug 2013)

Having family in that line of business myself, that sounds most strange. And no, you won't be paying for the kitchen in full before it is completed to your satisfaction...


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## Noilheart (26 Aug 2013)

Hi Mercman,

Sorry but  I don't understand where you're coming from.. this is not a question of them not fitting the kitchen, but it is a matter of whether they have the correct appliances. Its a bit early to even think of solicitors.


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## mercman (26 Aug 2013)

I'm coming from the angle that if you pay for the appliances and they don't deliver, you're going to be out of pocket. I know nothing about the company you have stated so it is wrong to cast aspersions against them, but you have paid a large proportion for the kitchen already. As you have not got a Credit Card, you wouldn't have any 'Insurance' if things go wrong. 

They decided to sell you the appliances, but payment is required first !! A bit strange IMO, especially in these times.


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## Noilheart (26 Aug 2013)

TTI said:


> Having family in that line of business myself, that sounds most strange. And no, you won't be paying for the kitchen in full before it is completed to your satisfaction...



There is an amount of €517 which they say is finally due on completion of the kitchen, but that is only a small fraction of what the kitchen is costing so its not much of an insurance if things go wrong.


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## Noilheart (26 Aug 2013)

mercman said:


> I'm coming from the angle that if you pay for the appliances and they don't deliver, you're going to be out of pocket. I know nothing about the company you have stated so it is wrong to cast aspersions against them, but you have paid a large proportion for the kitchen already. As you have not got a Credit Card, you wouldn't have any 'Insurance' if things go wrong.
> 
> They decided to sell you the appliances, but payment is required first !! A bit strange IMO, especially in these times.



Ok i see what you mean now.  I dont want to cast aspersions against them yet either, but they have communicated very poorly with me and not addressed my concerns. Phonecalls, emails, etc go unanswered.  Even calling in there on Saturday was no good really.  I asked for an invoice and the ones they sent is quoting the kitchen I picked initially and not showing the one I subsequently changed to.   I am feeling very jittery about tomorrow now as there seems to no co-ordination between the staff there.  And this is so important to me, but they seem to have a kind of Celtic Tiger attitude where only the big people matter and my kitchen is only €7,000 +


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## mercman (26 Aug 2013)

Noilheart said:


> its not much of an insurance if things go wrong.



And this is the point I've been trying to make, 

I'd say you might be best advising them that you'll pay for the appliances when they are on your property. Simple as that.


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## mercman (26 Aug 2013)

Noilheart said:


> my kitchen is only €7,000 +



That's a lot of wedge in these times. As I said yesterday this sounds a bit smelly. I really do think that if there is no show tomorrow, you'd be best to advise your solicitor, and without any delay.


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## bren1916 (26 Aug 2013)

Let us know if there's any issue after the install tomorrow.

IMO talk of solicitors etc at this stage where they haven't even arrived to fit it is a bit much....


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## Noilheart (26 Aug 2013)

Just checked the figures, the kitchen is to cost 7,315 euros, I have paid 4,471 euro,  but I have received no proper invoice, only statement and assertive letter saying all but 517 euro must be paid when fitters arrive.  Sent several emails this morning, no reply.  They are arriving tomorrow and want 2,327 on the spot according to their most recent "communication".  I Really want just to cancel and be done with them.  before I get too caught up with them.


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## Noilheart (26 Aug 2013)

bren1916 said:


> Let us know if there's any issue after the install tomorrow.
> 
> IMO talk of solicitors etc at this stage where they haven't even arrived to fit it is a bit much....



I feel it will be a mini-miracle at this stage if things go anyway smooth.  Oh I agree, talk of solicitors it a bit too early, but may have to to get my money back.


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## Brendan Burgess (26 Aug 2013)

Noilheart

This is very simple.

When you signed a contract for the kitchens, it would have specified when payment is due. 

If it specified all but €517 before they deliver, then that is what you should pay. That is your contract. End of story.

If the contract specified that it was not to be paid until the it was installed then you should not pay anything more. 

Kitchen suppliers and window manufactures are having difficulty these days getting paid, even after they have installed. 

As I understand it , kitchen manufacturers manufacture to order.  They would have no business manufacturing something other than your ordered. 

It is unusual of you to ask to see them in the shop.  How would you feel if they asked to see your bank statement to make sure that the money was in your account? 

It sounds as if you are a difficult customer, and so they probably should oblige you and show them to you.  

You can pay with a debit card. You have the same protection as credit card companies.


> They are arriving tomorrow and want  2,327 on the spot according to their most recent "communication".  I  Really want just to cancel and be done with them.  before I get too  caught up with them.



Ah, so is that the real issue? You have changed your mind the week before the kitchen is due to be installed. And you want to stick them for the cost of manufacturing them to your specification? 


Brendan


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## Noilheart (26 Aug 2013)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Noilheart
> 
> As I understand it , kitchen manufacturers manufacture to order.  They would have no business manufacturing something other than your ordered.
> 
> ...



Brendan,  I cannot let you get away with saying I am a difficult  customer, you know very little about me, so please do not get so  personal.  I pay all my bills and am an upstanding customer in many  businesses. 
I did not ask to see the cabinets they have manufactured as  you would know if you bothered to read my thread.  What I did want was  confirmation that the appliances, particularly the cooker, would be  available for installation on Wednesday.  It was not forthcoming despite  calling  in, phoning, emailing. 
And you make another nasty accusation about me wanting to stick them for the cost of manufacturing......really!  Nothing could me further from the truth, I am a genuine customer dearly longing for my first kitchen since 1984!  Have some respect for me please. Must it so often to come to people getting insulted when they have a problem they want to discuss on this website?

Anyway, there have been developments due to the intervention of my daughter.   Will up date when all is known.   And thank you all for the information that was helpful.


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## Brendan Burgess (26 Aug 2013)

Hi Noilheart

Apologies - I missed the point about the appliances. I thought it was the whole kitchen.

But there is something very odd about your story. Would you not agree? 

You have not answered my question. What did the contract say about payment? 

It strikes me as very odd that you want to cancel a kitchen "and be done with them" the day before it's due to be installed.  Especially after you have paid €4,471 which you will presumably lose. 

If I order something, I assume that what I order will be delivered.  I don't check with them the previous week to make sure it's in stock. 

If your contract specifies that you will pay the balance on the day installation begins, and they ask for it in advance, that would worry me and  I would refuse to pay. But I wouldn't want out of the deal. 



> And you make another nasty accusation about me wanting to stick them for  the cost of manufacturing......really!  Nothing could me further from  the truth,





> I Really want just to cancel and be done with them.  before I get too caught up with them.


So what are you proposing?  That you will just walk away from the money you have already paid?  That you will pay for the cabinets but not the appliances? 

As I say, there is something odd about the story - maybe "incomplete" is a better word. 

Maybe it's not odd to want to see the appliances a week before they are due to be installed.  But it's odd to want to cancel it because they won't show them to you.

You are very critical of a named company. I have to be very careful, that they are not defamed by you. So I have to point out the oddness or incompleteness of your story.

I look forward to the update. 

Brendan


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## fraggle (26 Aug 2013)

Noilheart,

I suspect you have invested a lot of money and emotion into this kitchen. You come across as a bit 'uptight' about it. Worry about what ifs. That is understandable.

To XYZ Ltd it is just another kitchen. Perhaps their communications are poor in this instance. But I would not assume that it is all going pear-shaped. I know 2 people who have kitchens from them and no issues.

Just go with it. All other customers, and I assume they have many happy ones, had to go through this. The kitchen will arrive, and so will your appliances. If something is amiss then sort it out when it happens!

I hope you enjoy your new kitchen!


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## Noilheart (26 Aug 2013)

Brendan,


Apologies accepted.     I do not agree about my story being "odd", but what I do think is odd (in the sense of unexpected of a man in your position)   you are not reading my posts properly before replying.  I most certainly did not request to "see" the appliances, that would be a bit much and I am not an unreasonable person, I simply requested confirmation that they would be available so that I could happily hand over the money when the arrived.  I have paid all money they have asked for so far.  

My story is incomplete to you , due to shortage of time or energy to give an exact blow by blow account.  I got so fed up with their lack of communication that I did want to cancel because of the terror of what it would be like to deal with them if anything did actually go wrong.  

My Terms & Conditions states that if the kitchen is cancelled after manufacture then customer is liable for the full amount.  Aside from the fact that contract terms are not supposed to put customers at a disadvantage (and I would be at a disadvantage if I pay over full money for the appliances and it turned out appliances not available),  I would like to point out to you that I have paid for the cabinets almost in full and the amount outstanding of €2,327 plus the hold-over of €517 constitutes most of the cost of the appliance money, and they would not confirm to me until late today that the appliances would arrive on Wednesday. Hence my terror at having money demanded without due communication.   They have been in touch with us and   I am trying to keep the faith with them, but so far all I will say about them is that they need a lesson in timely customer communication.


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## Noilheart (26 Aug 2013)

Oh thank you fraggle for your kind comments, yes I got very uptight when I was constantly drawing a blank when I tried to get them to confirm that my appliances would be available, they were so vague.  I had other questions about piping and emailed and rang but totally ignored.     Yes they certainly have fallen down in their customer communications with me and it is spoiling the thoughts of new kitchen, but I am trying to keep the faith with them. We actually sent a cancellation request in the end, and they then began to actually engage with us.


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## Brendan Burgess (27 Aug 2013)

Hi Noilheart

PadraigB, who must have read your posts properly, gave you the solution to your question. 



> It looks simple enough to me: when they bring the kitchen for  installation, the appliances should also be brought. When you verify  that, you should be prepared to pay the amount requested. If the  appliances are delayed, you should delay the appropriate part of the  contracted price.



That is very normal. 

I think you have made it difficult for yourself by asking if the appliances arrived.  Maybe "odd" is the wrong word - "uptight" is better .


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## seantheman (27 Aug 2013)

Noilheart said:


> I Really want just to cancel and be done with them. before I get too caught up with them.


 
Nothing to stop you doing this, just dont plan on getting your deposit back.


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## dubgem (27 Aug 2013)

Brendan Burgess said:


> I think you have made it difficult for yourself by asking if the appliances arrived.  Maybe "odd" is the wrong word - "uptight" is better .



Seriously?  I think asking whether appliances have arrived is perfectly acceptable customer behaviour, and not in any way "odd" or "uptight".  I do find it strange, and cause for concern, that the company cannot answer this question.


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## T McGibney (27 Aug 2013)

dubgem said:


> Seriously?  I think asking whether appliances have arrived is perfectly acceptable customer behaviour, and not in any way "odd" or "uptight".  I do find it strange, and cause for concern, that the company cannot answer this question.



Any product provider or wholesaler using Just In Time processes won't receive product until imminently before the scheduled date/time for delivery to the end customer.


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## Sandals (27 Aug 2013)

Noilheart said:


> The appliances are not due until Wednesday, they want all the money (bar about €500) on Tuesday.  I want confirmation, before I pay out any more money, that the appliances I ordered are available.



This is the problem in the first sentence.

I still think your well within your rights to know that the appliances are exactly the ones ordered. I recently had a dispute over an oversized family fridge freezer one came with ice/water dispenser and one didnt. (which I posted here about), I wanted the ice one and low and behold the other one was delivered. Had to drive half an hour and demand it was collected the next day as they wanted to leave it in my house till next one could be delivered which was going to be weeks. They only collected as I said fine ill leave it outside my back door as its a danger to my children, which was true.


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## Sandals (27 Aug 2013)

Brendan Burgess said:


> I don't check with them the previous week to make sure it's in stock.



I always do and always will as I find some places the level of customer service has deteriorated as they reduce staff numbers.


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## Vanilla (27 Aug 2013)

Just as I was beginning to wonder if anyone actually read what the OP posted! +1 Sandals and dubgem

Calling the OP 'uptight' is really offensive and I'm amazed at some of the posts here, Brendan especially. 

Sounds to me as if OP is being careful and right to be.


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## dub_nerd (27 Aug 2013)

I agree. I've had several experiences in the last two years of companies claiming an item is in stock and then waiting literally months for it to be delivered. The OP here is clearly quite willing to pay when they know the goods are available as promised. It is a pity there is not some standard mechanism for placing money in escrow in such circumstances, so that both buyer and seller are protected. Frankly I see no reason why taking a supplier at their word should be the default option -- too many are untrustworthy.


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## Brendan Burgess (27 Aug 2013)

As this thread is potentially defamatory of a named company, I have removed the name of the company from the opening post. 



The heading implies that they are being unreasonable, whereas it seems that they are just seeking payment in line with their contract
"I think they are a bit too forward with money demands but I have no guarantee that I will get the goods ordered." Nor has anyone who orders goods for later delivery.
Vague allegations which we can't substantiate " I dont want to cast aspersions against them yet either, but they have  communicated very poorly with me and not addressed my concerns.  Phonecalls, emails, etc go unanswered."
Despite not wanting to cast aspersions on them, she says "  I Really want just to cancel and be done with them.  before I get too caught up with them."
Noilheart is complaining about a service _*before *_she has received it. At least her previous complaints about her hairdresser, her plasterer, Mastercare, her carpetfitter and her friend's painter were made *after* the service was delivered.


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## Vanilla (27 Aug 2013)

Brendan Burgess said:


> At least her previous complaints about her hairdresser, her plasterer, Mastercare, her carpetfitter and her friend's painter were made *after* the service was delivered.


 

Well caught Brendan, imagine someone using a website called 'askaboutmoney' to complain or seek advice about various services or, indeed, a financial institution. I haven't taken the time to trawl through their previous threads but great to see you have, and you have spared the rest of us the forensic examination. 

Noilheart, I for one think you are absolutely right to be careful and I think it is a disgrace that you are being called 'uptight'. Continue to be careful and ignore the naysayers.


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## Brendan Burgess (27 Aug 2013)

So Vanilla

I take it you see nothing at all odd with someone wanting to break a contract a few days before it is delivered because they are alleged not to have communicated? 

Or you see nothing wrong with a misleading heading about a named company? 

I think that this is very odd behaviour.  

And do check out the previous threads. She has made a series of complaints and has taken offence at  anyone who dared to question the fairness of her complaints.

It's one thing to complain about unnamed companies but it is unfair to a named company to complain about them when there doesn't seem to me to be any grounds for complaint. 

Brendan


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## mercman (27 Aug 2013)

It will be interesting to see how the fitting went today, to start with.


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## Luternau (28 Aug 2013)

It did seem slightly OTT to me. The issue was not with the kitchen, only the appliances. It would seem reasonable to withold payment for them until delivery (though people pay lots of companies for these in advance of delivery all the time-so doing so is nothing groundbreaking) Were they not delivered, or be different to the ones ordered you simply don't pay and refuse delivery of them.

Speculating if, what, when, in advance of performance of a contract is just that-speculation. Its interesting to learn there was previous questioning of service levels or whatever elsewhere. Once, twice sure, that can happen but repeatedly, that does point to a trend of being difficult or very unlucky!!!

All that said, I hope the delivery/fitting went/goes well and that the OP could come back on here and publically recommend the company. That would be a fitting and fair way to close off.


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## Grizzly (28 Aug 2013)

Vanilla said:


> Well caught Brendan, imagine someone using a website called 'askaboutmoney' to complain or seek advice about various services or, indeed, a financial institution. I haven't taken the time to trawl through their previous threads but great to see you have, and you have spared the rest of us the forensic examination.
> 
> Noilheart, I for one think you are absolutely right to be careful and I think it is a disgrace that you are being called 'uptight'. Continue to be careful and ignore the naysayers.



I couldn't agree more. What a disgraceful way to treat a poster on this forum. Lots of companies have folded while taking deposits. I am sure that this is not the case with this company but it has happened in the past. It is not unreasonable for the OP to want to know if the expensive goods have arrived before handing over payment.
Another one lost to "Boards"?


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## dubgem (28 Aug 2013)

Grizzly said:


> Lots of companies have folded while taking deposits. I am sure that this is not the case with this company but it... is not unreasonable for the OP to want to know if the expensive goods have arrived before handing over payment.



Well put Grizzly, an excellent point.


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## mercman (28 Aug 2013)

This is the point I tried to make albeit in a roundabout fashion. And I reiterate the point that no aspersions should be made against this company concerned, but in reality in these times cognizance has to be made of the wider marketplace.


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## T McGibney (28 Aug 2013)

It was highly unfair of the OP to name the company and then proceed to cast aspersions on them in the manner they did.


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## Brendan Burgess (28 Aug 2013)

Grizzly said:


> Lots of companies have folded while taking deposits. I am sure that this is not the case with this company but it has happened in the past. It is not unreasonable for the OP to want to know if the expensive goods have arrived before handing over payment.



Hi Grizzly

She has already been asked a number of times about the payment terms and she has not answered the question. 

As Luternau has pointed out 



> people pay lots of companies for these in advance of delivery all the time-so doing so is nothing groundbreaking)



If she has already paid for the appliances, she is raising a complete red herring as she can do nothing about it.  She has parted with her money for them and the only issue is the fitting of the kitchen units. She should pay for them in accordance with her contract - not before or not after. 

If she has not paid for the appliances, and the ones she has ordered are not delivered, of course she should not pay for them. 

I will stress yet again, that she is complaining about something before it has happened.  To me that is completely unreasonable. And doing it about a named company is potentially defamatory. 

This is not Joe Duffy.  The customer is not always right and reasonable.  If customers are unreasonable, they will be challenged. 



> Another one lost to "Boards"?


I suspect that she would be challenged in exactly the same way on boards.


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## irishmoss (28 Aug 2013)

But from my reading of it she will have paid for the appliances AND the kitchen bar €517 euros before she sees anything ! The OP is dead right to ascertain what she has ordered is what she is going to get ! That's all she was doing but being ignored by the company

You haven't read the post correctly Brendan and your response is quite unfair


QUOTE>>If she has not paid for the appliances, and the ones she has ordered are not delivered, of course she should not pay for them


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## nai (29 Aug 2013)

Op - I don't think you were being unreasonable either, but I hope by now all is sorted.

I too would be more than a little annoyed if someone arrived to fit a kitchen that has been order weeks ago, took out the old kitchen and then left you without the correct appliances.
So - I agree - you were correct to push the suppliers on whether the goods were available or not.

To the other dissenters who think you are being unreasonable - i don't agree with you - the OP has every right to query the availability of a critical item - this is a cooker which the OP knows had a long lead time when she tried to order directly, so if the kitchen supplier doesn't have it, there is no chance of them placing a rush order and delivering/fitting on time.

The closest analogy I can think of is if you order a car with a Leather seat upgrade and the car is delivered without any seats at all - pretty useless, similar to a kitchen without appliances.


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## Brendan Burgess (29 Aug 2013)

nai and others

She still has not told us what the payment terms agreed in her contract were. 

She is right to check on the morning of delivery, that all the correct items are there. I have had the wrong stuff delivered on two occasions and when I pointed it out they were taken back and the right stuff was delivered.  This happens a lot. It's annoying, but we don't live in a perfect world. 

It's up to her if she wants to check if the appliances have arrived in stock.  The company should have responded to her calls and emails. 

She probably should have specified in her contract that the appliances be delivered ahead of the installation, so she could check them. 

She is not right to imply in her thread title that the supplier was demanding money earlier than agreed. This is what caught my attention as I assumed it was true and this company was trying to get money in early as they were in difficulty.  
She was not right to name the company. 
She is certainly not right to try to cancel the kitchen a few days before it was delivered. 


There seems to be an assumption that the customer is always right and reasonable and that the supplier is always wrong and unreasonable.


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## bren1916 (29 Aug 2013)

_"I will stress yet again, that she is complaining about something before it has happened. To me that is completely unreasonable. And doing it about a named company is potentially defamatory. 

This is not Joe Duffy. The customer is not always right and reasonable. If customers are unreasonable, they will be challenged". 
_

Brendan, I agree entirely with your sentiments above. We have also heard from only one side (customer).

Since the kitchen was to be installed last Tuesday, am I the only one thinking the lack of further information from the OP seems quite strange?


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## irishmoss (29 Aug 2013)

Why would you think it strange, there's no obligation to report back?

>>
Since the kitchen was to be installed last Tuesday, am I the only one thinking the lack of further information from the OP seems quite strange?[/QUOTE]


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## STEINER (29 Aug 2013)

There is no obligation to report back, but it is surely a matter of courtesy that after seeking advice here, the OP should post how things went with the supplier, whenever she gets a moment.  Maybe she is wrecked with food prep, baking and cooking!


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## Ceist Beag (29 Aug 2013)

Brendan I agree with your general point that the OP should operate within the contract signed and that there should not be an assumption here that the company has done anything wrong. It would be good if the OP could come back and wrap up this thread now that the installation date has passed.
However I find it very disappointing that once again you cannot make an argument without name calling and then failing to apologize for same. A point can be made without resorting to insulting the other party.


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## bren1916 (29 Aug 2013)

irishmoss said:


> Why would you think it strange, there's no obligation to report back?
> 
> I find it strange as if I were in the OP position and the install had not gone according to the agreed contract, I'd have let you all know by now!
> 
> Similarly, if the kitchen had gone in and the appliances delivered as per agreement, perhaps I would not 'report back' myself..


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## Kimmagegirl (29 Aug 2013)

Ceist Beag said:


> However I find it very disappointing that once again you cannot make an argument without name calling and then failing to apologize for same. A point can be made without resorting to insulting the other party.


 
I also thought that this was awful as well. Going back over a person's history to use it against them. I wasn't surprised though.


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## nai (29 Aug 2013)

Brendan Burgess said:


> nai and others
> 
> She still has not told us what the payment terms agreed in her contract were.
> 
> ...




Brendan - I agree with you about the title - but on this forum you can edit titles as you see fit - why not do that ?

Anyway - my thoughts - in this case the supplier is/was being unreasonable.

OP has stated that they have not responded to emails or phone calls
Calling into the company & speaking to manager also was to no avail
Document that she was shown by person responsible for ordering was for a different kitchen than the one she confirmed order on.

OP is not disputing that she has to pay - she was questioning whether she has any comeback if they don't deliver - big difference.

Also - she has not tried to cancel - I take it that she made a throwaway remark on an internet forum that she's sick of the carry on and would like to cancel.


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## Vanilla (29 Aug 2013)

Ceist Beag said:


> However I find it very disappointing that once again you cannot make an argument without name calling and then failing to apologize for same. A point can be made without resorting to insulting the other party.


 


Kimmagegirl said:


> I also thought that this was awful as well. Going back over a person's history to use it against them.


 
Brendan you addressed a post to me but I really have nothing further to add than what I have already posted. I don't feel the need to go through the OP's post history. The above posters have summarised my feeling on this thread.


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## irishmoss (29 Aug 2013)

Oh dear what a sexist remark ! 




			
				STEINER;1. said:
			
		

> Maybe she is wrecked with food prep, baking and cooking!


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## shoegal (29 Aug 2013)

I agree with Vanilla and her summary, I usually stay away from any kind of "observational commentry" on posts but I have to say I too am disheartened (but as another poster said - not surprised) by the heavy handedness of some of these responses, the OP is not "uptight", they are investing a lot of money in a fundamental part of their house and want to be sure they are getting what they specified before handing over the cash. I don't see how this is in any way odd. Hopefully the kitchen arrived safely with all the correct appliances and the OP is happily enjoying their new room. I'm sure they'll post back at some stage to let us know how it went.


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## Brendan Burgess (29 Aug 2013)

This is a decidedly odd story. 

It's defamatory - which is a huge concern for me. 
She complains about a service before it is delivered. 
She won't answer the question about paying for it.
And because of this, she wants to cancel the contract. Maybe this is a throwaway comment, but I have to deal with what she writes. 

I can't apologise for classifying this as "odd". It is not normal.   

If this had been a first time poster, a moderator would have hit the delete button immediately.  We don't allow defamatory comments. 

If a Frequent Poster with a record of balanced comment, makes a factual type post, we tend to take it at face value.  

I  checked her previous posts to see what sort of poster she has been.

Whether you like it or not, she has a record of questionable complaints. And then complaints about posters who dared question her complaints.  The plasterer one is the most revealing if you care to look at it. Not only is she unhappy with the plasterer, but in her own words "He was recommended by someone who was recommended here on askaboutmoney and I feel let down by the site." 

There is no pleasing some people.


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## geri (6 Sep 2013)

Hi,
How did you get on?
Geri


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## SparkRite (6 Sep 2013)

STEINER said:


> *There is no obligation to report back*, *but it is surely a matter of courtesy that after seeking advice here*, the OP should post how things went with the supplier, whenever she gets a moment.  Maybe she is wrecked with food prep, baking and cooking!



Couldn't agree more! Basic manners also.

While there was a bit of "flaming" in this thread there was also some good advice and to that end I think an update is not too much to expect.


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## Luternau (6 Sep 2013)

I would say an update is unlikely.

While some disagree, Brendan nailed it when saying it was an odd thread/and also possibly defamatory. Despite him asking for information on the terms of the contract, none was given. 

Best to note the poster name an adjust advice according to thanks received!


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## Bronco Lane (7 Sep 2013)

Luternau said:


> I would say an update is unlikely.


 
The OP has treated AAM as her personal way of finding out information for her needs but very seldom, if ever, has offered suggestions, help or advice to other people when they have a query. One way traffic.....


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## Padraigb (7 Sep 2013)

But those of us who like to offer guidance or advice need some people to come here seeking help.


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## Noilheart (7 Sep 2013)

geri said:


> Hi,
> How did you get on?
> Geri


 Hello Folks,

 My cooker was not available at the fitting date and will not be available for 3 weeks approx.  Waited in on the day with no update from kitchen co. but the supplier rang me directly late in the evening and  offered a loan of a cooker a step down from the one ordered  and threw in a small coffee machine to make up for delay.  He had such a great manner I  just couldnt quibble with that.    However the worktop fitting had gone ahead without the cooker and the loaned cooker was installed the next day (same dimensions as ordered one) and is quite lower than the worktop.  The worktop is higher than I expected and not a terribly comfortable height.      It is normal for them to send a snagger out  and when he called I didn't like his initial attidude, wanting to put me on the back foot with some of the snags, and had to stand up for myself.    

Brendan, I have no problem telling you the terms and conditions of payment, (now irrelevant) give me a chance,  I've been very busy lately.    
 “A booking deposit of 45% must be made to  secure a fitting date. A further 45% must be made on morning of delivery, and the final 10% to be paid on signing off kitchen.  Any laser payments will have to be made the day before as the maximum amount we cana take per day is €1,500. Please note if paying by credit card a 2% charge will apply.”     The contract  also states  “Please note all appliances must be on site prior to fitting date or this will incur a call out charge to fit them at a later date which will incur a minimum charge of €100.” !!        Turns out that had I known the problem and not already paid kitchen co. for the cooker  I could have  gone to a nearby electrical chain myself and got the cooker on time for suitable fitting with worktop.

When I first posted, I was frustrated with the lack of communication and the fact that I needed someone to appear in charge of co-ordinating the installation, that was not happening.   For instance,  I was lucky to realise the day before that existing pipework would not accommodate a dishwasher for instance; couldn't get an answer on whether to remove the old ducting from cooker hood and redecorate wall.   

 I didnt want to update this thread just yet as difficulties arose and I was going to wait until fitting was finalised.   And I have been very busy.    Just trying to catch up with all the posts.   But......!   I am taken aback by the amount of comments on the thread and feel I must make a reply, not least to defend myself against the goading hard line taken by Brendan,  who has tried to discredit me on the site.     I also understand “defamation” can only occur if untruths are broadcast, and that has definitely not happened in this case.  There was poor communication and I felt I would like to cancel due to frustration.  The customer is not always wrong Brendan.     Poor service and bad workmanship are sadly very common, and if the payment is made beforehand then complaining can be a waste of time.   Your attitude is not helping businesses or consumers.     I have sympathy for companies wanting to get paid for work done, in this case almost full payment was made before anything was supplied and fitted.


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## mercman (7 Sep 2013)

OP, Very well put and said. 

I don't believe you were out of order. More often than not, the consumer launching a complaint is right. People fail to realise that for a housewife changing a kitchen can be a very stressful event.


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## Brendan Burgess (8 Sep 2013)

Noilheart said:


> Brendan, I have no problem telling you the terms and conditions of payment, (now irrelevant) give me a chance,  I've been very busy lately.
> “A booking deposit of 45% must be made to  secure a fitting date. A further 45% must be made on morning of delivery, and the final 10% to be paid on signing off kitchen. ...



Hi Noilheart

Thanks for the update. 

So it is confirmed that they were simply asking you to pay them in line with the contract? No more, no less. Not ealier, not later. 

I consider "paid about half quoted price for kitchen. NOw they want more before they fit it" to be misleading. 

Have you paid in full yet?  Or are you still holding back the 10%? 




> Turns out that had I known the problem and not already paid kitchen co.  for the cooker  ...


So, am I right in saying that you had paid in full for the cooker and you had paid 45% of the fitting cost? 




> My cooker was not available at the fitting date and will not be  available for 3 weeks approx.  Waited in on the day with no update from  kitchen co. but the supplier rang me directly late in the evening and   offered a loan of a cooker a step down from the one ordered  and threw  in a small coffee machine to make up for delay.


That is a pain.  Which would seem to justify your suspicions at the start.  When were you told that it was not available before fitting? I would have cancelled the fitting and told them to wait until they had everything on site. 

It is not acceptable if they started fitting on the Tuesday without all the appliances being in place.  I would be very annoyed with this.  If it was an unusual appliance and I knew that there might be delays, I would not let them go ahead without everything being in place. But it's easy to be wise after the event.



> the loaned cooker was installed the next day (same dimensions as ordered  one) and is quite lower than the worktop.  The worktop is higher than I  expected and not a terribly comfortable height


I presume that they gave you drawings in advance of the fitting?  Is it in compliance with the specifications?  

I presume you discussed the height of the worktops in advance?  I know very little about kitchens. But are the worktops not a standard height?  I am sure you can specify them to be higher or lower, but I would have thought that this would be discussed in advance.  If I was changing my kitchen, I would expect either the workstops to be the standard height, or I would expect the kitchen designer to say something like the following: 

"Your current worktops are higher than average - do you want to keep that height?"

You have good grounds for complaint, if the worktops are not the standard height or if they are different from the spec. 





> I am taken aback by the amount of comments on the thread and feel I must  make a reply, not least to defend myself against the goading hard line  taken by Brendan,  who has tried to discredit me on the site.     I also  understand “defamation” can only occur if untruths are broadcast, and  that has definitely not happened in this case.


I was certainly not "goading" you.

You named a specific company in a highly critical, but vague, manner. 
We have now verfied, three weeks later, that the title was misleading. 

Taking this together with the cancellation comment, I felt you were being extremely unfair to a named company.  There was absolutely no basis for you to cancel your kitchen.  It may have been an over-reaction or it may have been a throwaway comment, but your comments would be coming up on Google for years to come when they search by that company name.  If you make those comments, you will be asked to justify them - that is not goading. 



> The customer is not always wrong Brendan.


Noilheart - I belive in balanced and fair comment. I don't believe that the customer is always wrong. Nor do I believe that they are never wrong. 

If a new poster makes vague, but serious allegations about a named company, I  delete them.

As you were a long time poster, I took your comments at face value, left the comments there, and asked you to justify them. That is not goading.


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## Brendan Burgess (8 Sep 2013)

Our primary concern is fairness for the sake of fairness, but defamatory posts obviously put me personally at risk, which is why I am especially careful about them.

But, in this case, Noilheart, you have put yourself at great risk as well, as the company involved would be able to identify you clearly from the details in your post. 

Removing the company's name protects you and me. 


Brendan


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## IsleOfMan (8 Sep 2013)

Noilheart said:


> Hello Folks,
> 
> My cooker was not available at the fitting date and will not be available for 3 weeks approx.



Your suspicions were absolutely correct. I see that if you had wanted to fit your own appliance after kitchen fitting they would have charged you a fee. Maybe you can charge them a fee for a late fitting?


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## IsleOfMan (8 Sep 2013)

I think that the name of the kitchen company should be re-instated in this thread and let everyone see that they did not provide the kitchen appliance on the date of fitting but were happy to take the payment for it.


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## Brendan Burgess (8 Sep 2013)

Hi Noilheart

I think your experience could be useful to others.  

Naming the company may be useful.

If you wish to start a new thread to document your experience in a factual manner , as specifically as possible , I will delete this thread, and replace it with the other one. 

But no vague allegations.  Just facts.  

For example  - replace " The worktop is higher than I expected and not a terribly comfortable height"    with  " The worktop is 3" higher than what was specified" . 

The key issues seems to be the non delivery in time of the cooker. The payment issue seems to be a complete red herring. 

I will bring the post to the attention of the company and ask them if they wish to respond. 

Brendan


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## SlurrySlump (8 Sep 2013)

I don't think that the original thread should be deleted. It should stand. Let everybody see how this woman was belittled.


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## Luternau (9 Sep 2013)

I am glad all seems to have turned out reasonably ok -barring the height issue, which should be standard unless you specified othewise? If not, you should not settle for anything other than standard height. (barring issues with you floor levels which may not have been known. 

Re this;


Noilheart said:


> He
> The contract  also states  “Please note all appliances must be on site prior to fitting date or this will incur a call out charge to fit them at a later date which will incur a minimum charge of €100



This is a term to discourage people buying appliances from other sources. Obviously, if you order appiances from them and the appliances are late, they would not charge this. It would be uncollectable as why would you pay for their own delay/error etc? Incompetence should never be rewarded.

As such, mentioning this term is either ;

A. To continue to think/claim they are taking advantage (I saw a gesture of good will on behalf of a supplier which counts for lots)
B. To put more weight to the argument you were going to be left at a loss from the outset ( where no reason to think this existed-a feeling/hunch is not a reason)
C. That you really did not understand the contract you entered/contracts in general-which is something everybody should be -before signing or paying money over.

I think some posts were not fair on you but equally, some of your posts could have been clearer. That said, I hope everything works out and if its not as agreed, keep pursuing them!


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## Luternau (9 Sep 2013)

IsleOfMan said:


> I think that the name of the kitchen company should be re-instated in this thread and let everyone see that they did not provide the kitchen appliance on the date of fitting but were happy to take the payment for it.



An alternative (plus a goodwill gesture) was offered and the customer (OP) was happy to accept this as an interim. It gets down to the contract and it probably says the kitchen supplier has no liability for 3rd party suppliers-of which supply of appliances would be such.


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## SlurrySlump (9 Sep 2013)

Luternau said:


> An alternative (plus a goodwill gesture) was offered and the customer (OP) was happy to accept this as an interim.



Was it not the supplier of the appliances who offered this and not the kitchen installer.?


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## dereko1969 (9 Sep 2013)

mercman said:


> OP, Very well put and said.
> 
> I don't believe you were out of order. More often than not, the consumer launching a complaint is right. *People fail to realise that for a housewife changing a kitchen can be a very stressful event*.


 
Sorry, but have we gone back to the 50's?


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## Brendan Burgess (9 Sep 2013)

dereko1969 said:


> Sorry, but have we gone back to the 50's?



I think that is a bit unfair. Woman were still the sole occupants of kitchens up to the mid-60s or thereabouts. 

Brendan


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## Luternau (9 Sep 2013)

SlurrySlump said:


> Was it not the supplier of the appliances who offered this and not the kitchen installer.?



 Yes, I believe so. The OP accepted this offer and seems happy enough with it so it's hardly a point to contest.


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