# Ryanair buying Boeing 737 Maxs



## Tintagel (4 Dec 2020)

I see that Ryanair are purchasing extra Boeing 737 max planes.  Didn't fill me with confidence I have to say. Still not sure that I want to play Russian roulette yet.


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## Leper (4 Dec 2020)

I'm sick of the cold, the rain and Covid.  When restrictions cease here + Spain, first chance, Boeing 737 Max or anything with wings (even Red Bull) I'm off to the sun for 13 weeks at least. I'll take my chances.


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## DublinHead54 (4 Dec 2020)

The investigation into 737 Max found issues with the culture, training, safety etc. I would hazard a guess that Boeing and the 737 Max is not an outlier in the airline industry and thus given the spotlight on the 737 Max and subsequent changes and safety test should provide some additional confidence in flying on a plane.


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## joer (4 Dec 2020)

We have a holiday booked for May , perhaps been optimistic but that is me. I hope to be going whether by 737 Max, Beoing or carrier pigeon , I will take my chance...


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## Black Sheep (4 Dec 2020)

Like many others I'll be on the first plane out to my favourite haunts in sunnier climes and have no problem with the 737 Max. It has to be the safest aircraft on earth after all that publicity.


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## roker (4 Dec 2020)

Dublinbay12 said:


> The investigation into 737 Max found issues with the culture, training, safety etc. I would hazard a guess that Boeing and the 737 Max is not an outlier in the airline industry and thus given the spotlight on the 737 Max and subsequent changes and safety test should provide some additional confidence in flying on a plane.


finding tools in the fuel tanks is definitely a culture thing, someone has a grudge


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## horusd (5 Dec 2020)

Whilst there is a wee bit of concern, given this aircrafts history, and the somewhat peculiar safety review process, I will fly on it. I will be more confident when it's flying for a year or so sans anything unforeseen. My issue is more with independent regulation in the US than anything else.   Hopefully for everyone, it proves to be the safest plane in the air.


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## Tintagel (5 Dec 2020)

horusd said:


> My issue is more with independent regulation in the US than anything else


I hope that Trump did not rush the safety certificate through the system in his quest to create more havoc before he leaves office.


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## Saavy99 (5 Dec 2020)

Tintagel said:


> I hope that Trump did not rush the safety certificate through the system in his quest to create more havoc before he leaves office.


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## Itchy (5 Dec 2020)

horusd said:


> Whilst there is a wee bit of concern, given this aircrafts history, and the somewhat peculiar safety review process, I will fly on it. I will be more confident when it's flying for a year or so sans anything unforeseen. My issue is more with independent regulation in the US than anything else.   Hopefully for everyone, it proves to be the safest plane in the air.



European regulators conducted their own review also. The independence issue in the US is a valid concern.



			https://www.easa.europa.eu/newsroom-and-events/press-releases/easa-lays-out-its-proposed-conditions-return-service-boeing-737


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## joe sod (5 Dec 2020)

People that are afraid of flying on this airplane are probably more afraid of the vaccine because it was rushed through in their opinion . Therefore they wont be flying on it  until they get vaccine which they wont be getting anyways.


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## roker (16 Dec 2020)

even if the symptoms re occur, unlike the last crash the pilots are trained how to get out of this dangerous situation


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## joer (16 Dec 2020)

That does not fill me with confidence ........as much as I would like to get flying again...


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## Eureka101 (16 Dec 2020)

What ive learned from the 737 Max investigation is that the aircraft is not designed from the ground up like the Airbus A320 but that it’s a 50 year old design which has had modern engines specially developed to keep the 737 design in service. It seems these measures have significantly changed the handling characteristics of the aircraft which in turn have required further modifications to compensate. It appears to me that the 737 Max is a compromised aircraft but if the regulators deem it safe then who are us non experts to disagree?


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## roker (17 Dec 2020)

As I understand it, the fault was the pito tubes which gives the air speed, there is only 1 where as most aircraft have 2. the software of the flight control couldn't handle the pito tube failure in auto and the pilots had not been trained to handle it in manual


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## SparkRite (17 Dec 2020)

roker said:


> As I understand it, the fault was the pito tubes which gives the air speed, there is only 1 where as most aircraft have 2



Pitot tubes were not the cause of the Max's problems. All modern airline jets have at least three active/measuring pitots along with static pitot(s) all with inbuilt redundancy.

The main problem of the 737Max was seen to be the 'MCAS' ( Manoeuvring Characteristics Augmentation System ).
This system was deemed necessary as with the new engine design and their placement being in a more forward position than that of previous generation 737s the climb characteristics were changed. To help alleviate and therefore hopefully not necessitate a different type rating for pilots the MCAS was implemented in the hope that the aircraft would appear, to the flight crew, to behave the same/similar as say, the 738/739's.

MCAS was designed to use only one of the two AoA ( Angle of Attack ) sensors and would operate *multiple* times, when a potential stall was signalled.
This has now been changed in that the software has been modified and now uses both AoA sensors, not one. The MCAS also now only activates once and AFAIK its flight authority has also been decreased.

Poor implementation of what was seen as a safety system and even poorer and or non existent pilot training has been cited as the root of the 737Max's tragedies.

PS. I have deliberately 'simplified' the above as it gets quite technical and would be even more boring to read. But the 'jist' of the cause I hope comes across.


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## Zebedee (18 Dec 2020)

Was there a cut off switch to disable the MCAS?


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## SparkRite (18 Dec 2020)

Zebedee said:


> Was there a cut off switch to disable the MCAS?


There was no simple on/off switch to disable MCAS, if that's what you mean.
Rather the PIC had to disable the semi/automatic horizontal stabiliser (rear wings) trim to remove MCAS from the equation of pitch control and then manually adjust the stab trim.
Even knowing this takes time (many pilots were not even aware of MCAS) and depending on how far out of trim the aircraft is , its speed and its altitude the time this takes may not be enough to allow a recovery to stabilised flight.


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## Zebedee (18 Dec 2020)

Thanks for your response. That’s interesting.


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## roker (20 Dec 2020)

thanks sparkRite, you  obviously have more technical details. My assumptions was what I extracted from the news and we know how accurate that can be. but wasn't the crux of the problem wrong speed info from the pitot causing a stall condition?


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## SparkRite (20 Dec 2020)

@roker Don't mind the news, we all know how 'accurate' they can be.

The problem was that MCAS could detect what it saw as an approach to a stall situation and take remedial action ( uncommanded ) by pitching the nose down. Remember, a lot more than just low airspeed can result in a wing stall.

The MCAS read different variables from different sources which included, wing config., thrust setting, COG., speed and AoA. It read only one of the two AoA sensors ( albeit this alternated on each start-up ) and so without any cross reference from the second AoA sensor the MCAS could inadvertently command a pitch down in an attempt to reduce the AoA. In the early stages of development, accelerometers were employed to measure change in pitch, but proved to be unreliable at low speeds and slow changes in attitude and so were abandoned. 

While every 737 pilot has been trained to deal with what is called a 'runaway stabilizer' situation which is a condition that gives similar results to MCAS misbehaving, unbeknownst to pilots Boeing had changed the functionality of the two switches, at the back of the throttle quadrant, which may be used to deal with the above situation.
Before implementing MCAS switching off one ( or both, depending on the circumstances) pitch control could be operated electronically by use of the toggle switches on the left of each control yoke. But with the MAX and MCAS, Boeing insisted that BOTH switches be off without explaining the complete function of each switch. This removed the use of the electric yoke toggle switches and so the only option to change stabilizer trim was to use a hand crank on the trim wheels.
If Boeing had kept the functionality the same as the NG's, then just turning off the right hand stab trim (autopilot ) switch would have disabled the STS ( speed trim system) and MCAS but the pilot would still have electric trim control. Unfortunately, as we know, this was not the case.


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## horusd (21 Dec 2020)

@SparkRite .... I understood about one sentence of that....


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## Leper (21 Dec 2020)

horusd said:


> @SparkRite .... I understood about one sentence of that....


I understood every word and sentence; I've just completed James Joyce's Ulysses for the 3rd time.


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## SparkRite (21 Dec 2020)

horusd said:


> @SparkRite .... I understood about one sentence of that....




Believe or not I actually tried my best to dumb it down, ( and I genuinely don't mean that in a condescending way ).

The danger is that if it is dumbed down too much then it is wide open to misinterpretation and contradiction.
Upon re-reading what I posted, there are still many generalisations and too little specific info.
But I did say previously,  that it could become quite 'technical' which I tried to avoid, but apparently failed miserably. 

Ah sure, one can only try.....


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## horusd (21 Dec 2020)

@SparkRite .  I notice, as the years go on, when I phase out after reading around the 3rd sentence of techie stuff, that wotever God made me for, it wasn't this.... And, as I'm a complete atheist, all I can suppose is that me skills (wotever they is) lie in "other areas." . Ulysses I kinda love @Leper . Though I think it is better spoken out than read.


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## Eureka101 (21 Dec 2020)

SparkRite, in a nutshell, would you be comfortable flying on a 737 Max?


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## SparkRite (21 Dec 2020)

Eureka101 said:


> SparkRite, in a nutshell, would you be comfortable flying on a 737 Max?


Absolutely I would.

I don't remember another airliner being scrutinised as much . Even the DC10's with its propensity to part company with its rear cargo door didn't get the same deep analysis or grounding and AFAIR the 737 classics with their 'rudder hard-over' problem escaped comparatively lightly.
Both were involved in multiple crashes with loss of life.


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## RedOnion (21 Dec 2020)

SparkRite said:


> But I did say previously, that it could become quite 'technical' which I tried to avoid, but apparently failed miserably.


You did a great job. I understood all the words.

Just not when they were put together...


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## horusd (22 Dec 2020)

RedOnion said:


> You did a great job. I understood all the words.
> 
> Just not when they were put together...


I'm not ALONE!


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## Carnmore (22 Dec 2020)

Leper said:


> I'm sick of the cold, the rain and *Covid*.  When restrictions cease here + Spain, first chance, Boeing 737 Max or anything with wings (even Red Bull) I'm off to the sun for 13 weeks at least. I'll take my chances.



Getting away from Covid...Are you aware of the rules in Spain? They're even more absurd than in Ireland-masks are required on the beach and walking on the prom


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## Leper (22 Dec 2020)

Carnmore said:


> Getting away from Covid...Are you aware of the rules in Spain? They're even more absurd than in Ireland-masks are required on the beach and walking on the prom





Carnmore said:


> Getting away from Covid...Are you aware of the rules in Spain? They're even more absurd than in Ireland-masks are required on the beach and walking on the prom


I am well aware of the restrictions that are in use in Spain. They are not "absurd" they are in place to protect lives. Even if you are in a restaurant you must wear a mask when you are not eating. Masks must always be worn outdoors also. The regulations are being enforced by the local police and on the spot fines are rightly being dished out. Movement is only permitted within the immediate area you reside. Some restrictions were eased to allow people travel outside the immediate are during the Christmas and New Year period. I postponed my usual amount of visits during 2020.


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## Carnmore (22 Dec 2020)

Leper said:


> I am well aware of the restrictions that are in use in Spain. They are not "absurd" they are in place to protect lives. Even if you are in a restaurant you must wear a mask when you are not eating. Masks must always be worn outdoors also. The regulations are being enforced by the local police and on the spot fines are rightly being dished out. Movement is only permitted within the immediate area you reside. Some restrictions were eased to allow people travel outside the immediate are during the Christmas and New Year period. I postponed my usual amount of visits during 2020.



That sounds like such fun! In my opinion they are absurd and that would not be "getting away from covid" rather to a place even more depressing than Ireland.

This time last year I was in the Canary Islands but won't be going back until common sense prevails again, if ever.


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## horusd (22 Dec 2020)

Carnmore said:


> Getting away from Covid...Are you aware of the rules in Spain? They're even more absurd than in Ireland-masks are required on the beach and walking on the prom


I'm in Spain. Masks req.d in public places and  public spaces indoors, shops etc. Not required on actual beaches, but are required walking on proms etc. This seems a reasonable balance in my view.


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## Leo (23 Dec 2020)

horusd said:


> This seems a reasonable balance in my view.



Some people find life-saving measures absurd.


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## Saavy99 (26 Dec 2020)

737 Max: Air Canada flight in unscheduled landing after engine issue
					

The plane with three crew landed safely after rerouting on a flight from the US to Canada.



					www.bbc.com
				




This is not going to inspire confidence, another set back.


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