# Why are things so bad for physiotherapists just now?



## ajapale (5 Mar 2007)

Anecdotal evidence points to physiotherapists having rough time finding employment in the Republic (and the UK) over the last year or so.

Does anyone know why this might be the case? For school leavers contemplating a career would people reccomend physiotherapy as a profession?

aj


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## ClubMan (5 Mar 2007)

Can you link to some of this anecdotal evidence maybe?


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## Oilean Beag (5 Mar 2007)

Two friends of mine graduated as Physio's . One in ireland in 2005, took her 6 months to find a temp job. Still not permananent as far as Im aware. The other graduated from the UK in 2006 and has only just got a part time job this January. 

Full time permanent positions seem to be like gold dust & extremely hard to get.


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## ajapale (5 Mar 2007)

ClubMan said:


> Can you link to some of this anecdotal evidence maybe?





mprsv1000 said:


> .......she cannot find work ( very little in the physo field ) would we get any benefits?..........


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## bleary (5 Mar 2007)

Ucd have had a 30% decrease in applications for course in physiotherapy due to perceived poor job prospects 

[broken link removed]


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## liteweight (5 Mar 2007)

They need to call themselves something more glamorous like Osteopath or Chiropractor. They seem to be in vogue at the moment. I think the perception of a physiotherapist is that of someone who deals with sport injuries.


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## tallpaul (5 Mar 2007)

Surprised at this. My wife has occasion to use a physiotherapist and the woman is jammers all day every day. She seems to have a very profitable business. Perhaps there is a surfeit of physios in the Dublin area??


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## rob30 (5 Mar 2007)

The NHS in the UK is in the red so there are hiring bans on new staff. Student nurses there are in dire straits. The UK was good at mopping up the excess from Ireland. A lot of irish physios are private, works damn hard to make some money. Only people willing to pay are young people with money and a sports injury, granny with a bad knee just has to rot on some waiting list it seems unfortunately.


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## gearoidmm (5 Mar 2007)

liteweight said:


> They need to call themselves something more glamorous like Osteopath or Chiropractor. They seem to be in vogue at the moment. I think the perception of a physiotherapist is that of someone who deals with sport injuries.



And the perception of osteopaths and chiropracters is what?  Physios do far more than deal with sports injuries and given the training and study they have to do to call themselves physiotherapists, they would be very insulted by this comparison.


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## liteweight (6 Mar 2007)

gearoidmm said:


> And the perception of osteopaths and chiropracters is what?  Physios do far more than deal with sports injuries and given the training and study they have to do to call themselves physiotherapists, they would be very insulted by this comparison.



What comparison? I don't doubt that physios deal with far more than sports injuries. What I said was the perception, IMO, is that this is what they are most used for. Or, indeed, for someone who has broken a limb etc.


I don't want to start a debate re osteopath versus physio. Both study for a long time and do admirable work. Amongst my friends however, three attend an osteopath for back pain. They didn't even consider a physio. As I said, osteopaths, chiropractors, are in VOGUE, not better.


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## Brianp (6 Mar 2007)

liteweight said:


> Amongst my friends however, three attend an osteopath for back pain. They didn't even consider a physio. As I said, osteopaths, chiropractors, are in VOGUE, not better.


 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3684096.stm

Makes for an interesting read.


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## liteweight (6 Mar 2007)

Interesting indeed! But one swallow and all that....!


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## peno (6 Mar 2007)

Must say I have first hand experience of this.

I had terrible back pain to the point I was waking at 5 in the morning and being unable to go back asleep with the pain. I had to go down and sit upright on the sofa to try sleep that way.

I went to the physio about 5 /6 times and had various things done all of which failed. I stopped attending the physio and at the same time joined a gym. After 3 or 4 sessions in the gym the pain went and I no longer suffer with it.


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## legend99 (6 Mar 2007)

There were articles a few months back going over the lack of jobs for the last year or two of physio grads. Can't remember which paper it was in but it was some negative vibe....


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## Brianp (6 Mar 2007)

Can remember hearing Occupational therapist experiencing the same problem


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## Welfarite (6 Mar 2007)

Perhaps if the HSE employed more physios, they would be able to free up more beds in the hospitals by getting patients onto their feet quicker?


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## mprsv1000 (6 Mar 2007)

Its the same here in the U.K in Coventry University only 12% of physio graduates found full time employment last year many are working as physio assistants doing the work of a physio at a fraction of the cost. They are also reducing the intake for physio courses next year. While there is real a need for more physio's the NHS has a jobs freeze so when someone leaves they do not fill the position and with fewer senior physios they cannot supervise the juniors so this also makes it harder to recruit.

Also on my girlfriends course (qualifies this year) about 10% are from Ireland and all are moving home as there is no work here so this will put added pressure on jobs in Ireland. we'll have the best qualified burger flippers in the world...  there's a flip side to everything...

Also as an aside I had a really bad back last year and after a few weeks of physio tried a chiropractor who sorted it out in one go...(the missus wasn't to impressed...sleeping with the enemy and all that...)


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## Marie (6 Mar 2007)

ajapale said:


> Anecdotal evidence points to physiotherapists having rough time finding employment in the Republic (and the UK) over the last year or so.
> 
> Does anyone know why this might be the case? For school leavers contemplating a career would people reccomend physiotherapy as a profession?
> 
> aj


 
aj the reason is 'cuts' justified by selective use of 'evidence-based research' through which health services managers in Ireland and UK axe specialisms.  My advice to any young person with an interest in physiotherapy or any of the other PAM's (Professions Associated with Medicine as they used to be known as) is to train, enjoy it, and practice privately.

During decades of working as a sculptor fabricating and welding sheet steel every day in my studio I had frequent need of an osteopath and have a wonderful practitioner in London.  Recently I went to a local osteopathic practice (Colchester) for treatment for long-standing ankle pain.  It was no help whatever due to his youth and inexperience.  I went to my GP who referred me to a local physiotherapist.  He diagnosed repetitite strain injury and 8 x 20 minute sessions later I can now walk without pain or a limp.


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## rob30 (6 Mar 2007)

I know of a back surgeon who goes to a chiropractor, swears by them!


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## nelly (7 Mar 2007)

liteweight said:


> , osteopaths, chiropractors, are in VOGUE, not better.


I agree that similar therapists are earing into traditional physio ground. 
If physio's are prepared to set up private practice and work evenings and weekends then sports clubs would be interested in them - I know of one massage therapist who went on to do the ITEC diploma in sports rehab and is now working a few days a week private practice and then evenings in the local GAA club seeing their folks at a discount - and is in business for the last few years now. She has a steady stream of clients from this, but yes often unsociable hours. I went to her for RSI wrist and shoulder pain and got relief and never thought of a physio TBH and I did not have to take time off of work. I just never thought of a physio.


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## imogen (7 Mar 2007)

My understanding of the problem based on radio news items is that the ISCP (professional association for physiotherapists in Ireland) is quite rightly insisting that physios straight out of college need to spend a year in supervised clinical work. These supervised posts are not available due to the general health service discombobulation. The HSE are trying to make the ISCP rescind their requirement for "on the job" training. 

There is in fact a desperate need for physios in Irish hospitals which was why there was an increase in student places funded. 

I can speak from first hand experience having been unable to receive physio except by paying for a non-specialist after I became temporarily paralysed in 2004. No outpatient appointments were available. I was told to stay in hospital blocking a neurological bed for which over 700 people were watiing for a further week to access physio. I refused to do this.

Physiotherapists can and do work in private practice in Ireland. I was lucky to find one who although not a specialist in neuro rehabilitation worked with me for a year to help me get back as much function as possible.

Rehabilitation will become more of an issue with an ageing population. In addition when conditions worsen it is often the physio who notices the problem and refers the person back for more medical care. I think the situation regarding the HSE and physiotherapy is an absolute disgrace.

I note the government has still failed to announce the members of the Health and Social Care Professionals Act 2005 council which was supposed to happen at the latest by the end of 2006. This is the council under which physiotherapy will be regulated. No doubt announcements will be made on the eve of the election.

Best wishes

Imogen

Best wishes


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## Gordanus (12 Mar 2007)

Marie said:


> aj the reason is 'cuts' justified by selective use of 'evidence-based research' through which health services managers in Ireland and UK axe specialisms. .



there are huge differences between the HSE and the NHS.  You cannot extrapolate from one to the other.  One of the differences is that the HSE hasn't yet heard of evidence based practice - or if they have, they're keeping it quite as they do not have enough practitioners here. (See shortage of neuorologists , the appalingly short lifespan of CF patients compared to the North, the UK, the US etc etc etc)
The reason the physios don't get jobs is because there's a job freeze in the HSEs.


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## Welfarite (13 Mar 2007)

There's a piece in the Health Supplement of Irish times today about how it "red tape" in HSE that is the problem, not the lack of jobs....


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## Marie (13 Mar 2007)

Gordanus said:


> there are huge differences between the HSE and the NHS. You cannot extrapolate from one to the other. One of the differences is that the HSE hasn't yet heard of evidence based practice - or if they have, they're keeping it quite as they do not have enough practitioners here. (See shortage of neuorologists , the appalingly short lifespan of CF patients compared to the North, the UK, the US etc etc etc)
> The reason the physios don't get jobs is because there's a job freeze in the HSEs.


 
Hi Gordanus - I don't want to depart too far from ajpale's post (which asks views on the prospects for young people training as physiotherapists) but the Health Services Executive is modelled on the Department of Health in the UK which was reconstituted into its present form the late 1970's.  From the public statements of the Irish Minister for Health, investigative journalism on the policies and their effects and the fact the HSE Chief Executive was head-hunted from the NHS in the UK the HSE would appear to be pursuing the same public-private partnership strategy as the NHS.  As other posters have pointed out this has an effect on recruitment.  The HSE and the Irish public healthcare system are swiftly mutating into the same 'global' health care model in operation in America and UK some local variations notwithstanding.  Stripping out ancillary services such as physiotherapy is 'cost-saving' in the short-term but pushes the public health system towards acute intervention.  In the UK anything remotely preventative or rehabilitatative are being starved and increasingly available only privately.  Newly-qualifying practitioners will find themselves working very differently.


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