# Help regarding a will



## deiseboys (27 Aug 2006)

My mother died early this year and my brother was made executor.  The will stated that her property was to be sold and divided between her children.  The house needs repairs and it was decided to updated it before it goes up for sale.  I was asked to hand over 1000 euro and this should cover all costs.  Now I have been asked to hand over another 1000 euro which I dont want to do because really I cant see where the first lot of money has gone.  Does the executor my brother have the authority to do this or can I just say NO.


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## therave (27 Aug 2006)

should or could he not have used money from the estate to carry out the updating.. i personally would not hand out the cash,i know he's your brother but,ask is the 1k a loan to the estate and is it refundable from the estate.
He is responsible for the disbursment of the estate according to the wishes in the will of your mother


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## deiseboys (27 Aug 2006)

thats what I taught and then it would have been all above board with receipts and a full list of what was spent and where.


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## pat127 (27 Aug 2006)

I think you need legal advice on this one. You don't make it clear who decided to update the property and on what basis. Was there an agreement in writing for example? I think you need to look closely at the Executor's role. He or she is given the power by the Probate Office to distribute the will in accordance with the deceased's wishes as expressed in the will. Along with selecting an Estate Agent, Solicitor etc, I think it can be argued that the Executor could independently decide to spend money to put the house in selling condition if so required. That's only my opinion however! 

Similarly the Executor has to address how ongoing utility bills such as electricity are paid. The question then is where does the money come from. If there is cash included in the Estate can the Executor draw on this to pay for house repairs? Remember that at the end of the Executor's grace period, which is a year usually, the Beneficiaries have the right to sue the Executor if not happy with how he or she disposed of the Estate. 

The next question is to address how much power the Beneficiaries have pre-distribution. Can they independently decide to spend money on the house against the Estate or can they loan money to the Executor and on what basis? I suspect that the Executor calls the shots but could accept a loan, but how formal should the agreement to make the loan be, and what comeback  is there other than suing the Executor later. 

If one of the lawyers here on the Forum doesn't pick up your question, I'd strongly recommend that you consult your own lawyer or visit your local Citizens' Information Centre to make an appointment to use their free legal information service. Many operate by appointment but some have a walk-in service and any Centre will tell you which ones do if you can't wait for an appointment.

You might let us know how you get on if it's not covered in the Forum.


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## deiseboys (27 Aug 2006)

I dont want to come across as been awkard.  The estate agent said cleaning up the house (painting walls, replacing carpets and general tidy up) would help to sell.  There was no written agreement we got a quote for 4,000 euro to paint and clean up.  It was then suggested by the executor that we put up 1,000 euro each a total of 6,000 euro the remaining 2,000 for carpets and skip hire.  Now I got a phone call to say that they need another 1,000 euro which they have put in for me and I can send them a cheque or it can be taken out of the sale.  The extra money I am told are for costs running over extra skips, carpets which money was already allocated for.  If they had replaced bathrooms and kitchens you might see where the money went but 12,000 euro to clear out a standard size house paint and and lay low cost carpets no tiling.  What should I do????


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## liteweight (27 Aug 2006)

I don't think you're being awkward. The very least you should expect is an itemised estimate stating where funds are to be spent! 12k seems like a lot but when seen in black and white, might be a sensible figure. The point is..how are you to make a judgement about whether or not to spend your money, when you don't know exactly what its being spent on!!  I'd be very annoyed if someone took the decision out of my hands by putting money 'in' for me. Surely you should have been consulted before this decision was taken.


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## deiseboys (27 Aug 2006)

This is what has annoyed me.  To assume I would agree and not even consider to give me a ring.  I dont know what my rights are as he is the executor can he just make these decisions????


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## liteweight (27 Aug 2006)

I don't know exactly what he's entitled to do as executor. Perhaps he can allocate money to repairs to the house etc. I'd imagine the beneficiaries would have to be in agreement. However, nobody has the right to spend money on your behalf without consulting you, and then expect to be paid back!


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## pat127 (27 Aug 2006)

You are definitely not being awkward, _deiseboys_, and I’ve a lot of sympathy for you in what is definitely a difficult situation. Apart from the legal aspects there is the danger that family relationships will be damaged and that’s never desirable. 

With deference to _liteweight_ I have to repeat what I’ve already said. Before you can decide what to do, you need a lawyer to tell you exactly what an Executor can or cannot do in your circumstances and also what powers a Beneficiary has. I’ve suggested the Citizens’ Information Centres and the associated  Free Legal Advice Centres (FLAC) and I can tell you from extensive personal experience that you’ll get a very good response from them.  If you are in Dublin I can suggest a FLAC location  in Pearse St which has a walk-in legal service and I can give you a phone number to contact them about when the service is available.


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## deiseboys (27 Aug 2006)

Im in the southeast and thank you for your help.  Its just that I have a lot going on at the moment, getting over the death of my mother, son going away to college and this I could do without.


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## therave (27 Aug 2006)

i agree with all of the above and i would ask the rest of the family if they think spending 12k on the house was worth it ie will the 12 k add 12 to the value or will it add 30k to the value..it's a fragile situation family wise and i am sure your mother never intended there to be animosity or that u would all be out of pocket.
i think he's taking a liberty.estate agents do get it wrong as well .maybe u could contact the  EA and ask him what he expected to sell the hgouse for before the refurb and what it's worth after..if it's only gone up 5 grand then it's clearly been a waste of 12 k.. best of luck with it


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## deiseboys (27 Aug 2006)

Aftr my mothers death the executor my brother got the house valued by an auctioneer, who said it could do with updating.  Now after painting the walls and ceilings and general tidy up another auctioneer has increased the value by 100k which i find hard to believe as the bathroom and kitchen were not updated which in my opinion needed doing, one of the auctioneers has got it wrong.  You might say well what is my proplem if the property has increased this much.  I didnt like the way he assumed I would hand over the money and not even tell me what it was for and just  put it in for me and tell me to forward a cheque or fix up when the house is sold.  If the first 12k was managed properly alot more could have been done (painting the inside of a garage) what next??? I just need to know can I say NO or if I say no and everyone else pays where does it leave me.


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## liteweight (28 Aug 2006)

pat127 said:


> With deference to _liteweight_ I have to repeat what I’ve already said. Before you can decide what to do, you need a lawyer to tell you exactly what an Executor can or cannot do in your circumstances and also what powers a Beneficiary has. I’ve suggested the Citizens’ Information Centres and the associated  Free Legal Advice Centres (FLAC) and I can tell you from extensive personal experience that you’ll get a very good response from them.  If you are in Dublin I can suggest a FLAC location  in Pearse St which has a walk-in legal service and I can give you a phone number to contact them about when the service is available.



I never suggested that the poster should not seek legal advice...of course he/she should!! 

What I am saying is that I'm sure the Executor may have charge of the finances involved in the Estate but not the poster's personal finances, which is what is being spent.

Perhaps if you rang FLAC, they could recommend someone in your area.


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## Grizzly (28 Aug 2006)

Why don't you become more involved and stop whining on the sidelines? He is the executor but you are one of the benificaries. Spending some money improving the house will benefit you in the end. Organise and attend family meetings and discuss outgoings/things to do etc  If you feel like calling a halt to the spending then speak up. You keep referring to "they". Who are "they"?


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## deiseboys (28 Aug 2006)

Its pointless speaking up because any suggestions I made were ignored.  I live away so cannot get involved in day to day goings on.  When I say they I mean my brother and one of my sisters.  The rest of the family wanted to leave time for us to grieve the death of our mother but insted within a week of her death the house was valued by auctioneer, and all her personal belongings were being dumped which I feel was inappropiate. All we wanted was time to adjust her home was her pride and joy especially her garden.  From then on I just agreed with whatever was asked until my brother paid over money for me without asking, nobody would be happy about this.  That is why as suggested I will be seeking advise.


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## therave (28 Aug 2006)

your'e right you do need to time to grieve but people treat grief differently and u know also what they say about a will.. 
where there is a will there is a relative or better still a relatives other half.
everybody is different but there will always be one and if not somebody behind the one pusing them..
i think u shoudln't pay over anymore money,let your brother get a loan on the strenght of the house sale and pay it back when all is sorted


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## deiseboys (28 Aug 2006)

Getting a loan, this was one of my suggestions and would have been the proper way of doing things.  12k has been spent and many of the major problems have been ignored or painted over and hoped will not be picked up.


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## legalhawk (28 Aug 2006)

it is very unusual that a beneficiary to an estate would be asked to pay into the refurb of a house prior to sale, the purpose of a will is that all debts & liabilities would be discharged before assets are distributed and it's the Executors role to simply act as administrator. does the estate have any other assets that could be utilised to refurb the house, many of these assets may be tied up without the issue of the grant.If the grant is issued (which it has to before the executor has the power to sell) then any assets in bank accounts etc are to be utilised against any costs of the estate before distribution. if there are no assets of the estate an executor can open up an Executor's account with a bank and the solicitor on behalf of the estate can undertake to the bank that on the sale of the house that all monies due to the bank would be paid off.


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## deiseboys (28 Aug 2006)

Yes she did have other assets.  Savings account, was paying into SSIA and also had the famous eircom shares.  She had everything stated clearly in her will, funeral expenses to be paid first, grandchildren next and then remainder split, house to be sold and divided between children.  I hope people dont think I'm being awkard over 2k its not the money its the manner in which things are being done.  I keep getting told your 2k will make 10k its not all about money.  Someone said to me when your mother dies part of you dies too, how true.  Given time this could have been done properly not listening to estate agents that want your house on there books.


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## liteweight (28 Aug 2006)

It's a very emotional time for all concerned. There's a lot to be said for 'least said, soonest mended' type approach. However, I would tell my brother that I wanted to be consulted before any event takes place, not after. You can do this in a reasonable manner and without causing an argument.


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## pat127 (28 Aug 2006)

Are we missing some points here? Does a Beneficiary have any legal right to be consulted or involved in making decisions? If so, then an Executor would be legally obliged to consult Beneficiaries such as Charities which are often named in Wills (or the grand-children for that matter). If I’m right, then an Executor who chooses to involve family members does so to seek advice or as a matter of courtesy only. 

A Beneficiary cannot be forced to ‘loan’ money to the Estate but if he or she decides to do so, it doesn’t confer any new rights such as to consultation (no more than the Bank holding the Executor account has any such right). Am I correct? If I am, then _dieseboys _has the right to claim back whatever he has paid into the Estate, or refuse to reimburse whichever sibling put in money on his behalf. 

In my opinion, _dieseboys_ has a very difficult decision to make. Cause a major family row by insisting on his  right not to loan money to the Estate, or just let it go and put up with the consequences.


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## mf1 (28 Aug 2006)

Yes as above - all very awkward. I have a couple of Probates under way at the moment and it is interesting how different families behave. 

Some families are perfectly happy to let the executor do whatever it takes to get the estate sorted - including if necessary expending money ( his own or theirs) to seek to maximise the value of the estate on the sale of the property. One family is at loggerheads at the perceived slight seen by some at the appointment of one sibling only as executor. They are fighting over everything - and where family are concerned, boy can you find things to  fight over. 

Ultimately, it is for the  executor to deal with the estate - in certain circumstances, he/she may need the assistance of beneficiaries if for example there are insufficient funds to do what they think is necessary. In those circumstances, tact and delicacy will not go amiss. Beneficiaries in general are not entitled to be consulted nor their opinion sought. In practice however executors have an obligation  to properly administer the estate and may be sued by beneficiaries for failing to properly administer an estate. 

mf


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## onekeano (28 Aug 2006)

deiseboys said:


> ..... and all her personal belongings were being dumped which I feel was inappropiate. All we wanted was time to adjust her home was her pride and joy especially her garden.



DB - I can empathise with you my own mother died a few months back and we are going through the same kind of process. Whatever about the money side of it if one of my siblings had done something like the above I would have gone ballistic. Sounds to me that if one (or more) of the siblings are so insensitive to others feelings I would not pay a penny further towards what are in effect THEIR grand plans - and I would insist on itemised receipts for monies already spent from your mothers estate.

In my own situation my sister is the exec and as a matter of course she keeps us update on any income and expenditure and before anything was given away or disposed of we met jointly to agree in advance.

I know the point being made about less said the better but I have to say that I wouldn't be worried about the feelings of someone who has been so insensitive about my mothers personal belongings.

Roy


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## liteweight (28 Aug 2006)

pat127 said:


> Are we missing some points here? Does a Beneficiary have any legal right to be consulted or involved in making decisions? If so, then an Executor would be legally obliged to consult Beneficiaries such as Charities which are often named in Wills (or the grand-children for that matter). If I’m right, then an Executor who chooses to involve family members does so to seek advice or as a matter of courtesy only.




I don't believe a beneficiary does have a legal right to be consulted when making decisions. In this instance, the Executor, saw fit to spend 1k on behalf of dieseboy, without his/her knowledge and looked for a cheque, or else the sum would be deducted from inheritance. This had nothing to do with the estate as such. He could have chosen to borrow etc. against the estate but did not.  If an Executor intends to spend your money, then I think, the least you can expect, is to be consulted! 
 



			
				pat127 said:
			
		

> A Beneficiary cannot be forced to ‘loan’ money to the Estate but if he or she decides to do so, it doesn’t confer any new rights such as to consultation (no more than the Bank holding the Executor account has any such right). Am I correct? If I am, then _dieseboys _has the right to claim back whatever he has paid into the Estate, or refuse to reimburse whichever sibling put in money on his behalf.



Dieseboy is effectively being 'forced' to pay money to the Estate if no one consults him/her before the money is spent. The point is, he/she should not be forced into the embarassing situation you mentioned above,i.e. refuse to pay sibling etc.






			
				pat127 said:
			
		

> In my opinion, _dieseboys_ has a very difficult decision to make. Cause a major family row by insisting on his  right not to loan money to the Estate, or just let it go and put up with the consequences.




I agree he/she has a difficult decision to make but if it's handled correctly, I don't see why it should escalate into a major family row!


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## deiseboys (28 Aug 2006)

That is exactly why I posted a query in the first place, didnt want to upset anyone but wanted to find out if I can say no or does the executor call the shots.  So now that I kinda know he cant I can say enough is enough before things get out of hand.


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## Grizzly (29 Aug 2006)

Having the house valued within a week of your mother's death seems insensitive. However you have to understand that your mother chose your brother as executor for a reason. Is he the person who gets things done, is he the one that wears the suit in the family or does he just talk the talk?.  Perhaps he has read that with interest rates rising and the talk of a glut of houses on the market this coming selling season he wants to get in there before any slowdown happens.
Either way this appears to be more of a family matter and difficulty with communications matter than anything else. It is not just the executor that is involved but another of the beneficiaries, your sister that is also calling the shots.
How long should a house be left idle before it is placed on the market? One month, three months, six months? Do you envisage visiting the empty house every other weekend, walking through the rooms and the garden remembering the old days, tears in your eyes, sad and upset. Do you need this? Is that part of the healing process?


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## onekeano (29 Aug 2006)

Grizzly said:


> How long should a house be left idle before it is placed on the market? One month, three months, six months? Do you envisage visiting the empty house every other weekend, walking through the rooms and the garden remembering the old days, tears in your eyes, sad and upset. Do you need this? Is that part of the healing process?




Think one of the points being made was that decisions were being made (regarding personal belongings and what work should be done / expenditure etc) where were not being agreed with all members of the family. 

I don't think that the comments about "walking through the rooms and the garden remembering the old days, tears in your eyes, sad and upset" are particularly helpful. I wouldn't like friends or neighbours of my mother thinking that the family were sitting around waiting for her to die so they could move onto the disposal part of the project!

Roy


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## Grizzly (29 Aug 2006)

onekeano said:


> . I wouldn't like friends or neighbours of my mother thinking that the family were sitting around waiting for her to die so they could move onto the disposal part of the project!
> 
> Roy


 
This family including the original poster and the other family members in disagreement were happy to spend money on the house "after the mothers death". Why didn't anybody replace the carpets and decorate the house when she was alive?.


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## liteweight (29 Aug 2006)

Grizzly said:


> This family including the original poster and the other family members in disagreement were happy to spend money on the house "after the mothers death". Why didn't anybody replace the carpets and decorate the house when she was alive?.



Completely uncalled for!!


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## deiseboys (29 Aug 2006)

A point for Grizzly as you know the elderly like things there way nice and flowery and not the modern way cream and clean.

What I get out of all your replys and thank you all is that it was the executor decision, after getting the house valued, should have got estimates for updating, got advise as to where the money should be spent and went with that.  Either get a loan or using assets if available (which there were).  This makes a lot of sense.  I still dont know what to do about the 1k that has been paid in for me, I have got a list of where the money was spent and still cant believe my eyes.  He has left all the decisions up to the painter as far as I can see,  painting everything that didn't move.  I mean 800 euro for paint alone and keeping in mind it is painted all in magnolia???  I cant believe what he charged to actually paint the walls.


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## liteweight (29 Aug 2006)

I think you should bear in mind that your brother has lost his mother too. It's not easy being an Executor for a parent and there will always be something that someone else would have done differently!

Perhaps he didn't chase up the best quotes...not a hanging offence...would you be in form for this at the moment?

The only thing I would object to is his spending my personal money without my consent. This can be rectified by having a chat...not a row...no accusations...simply letting him know you feel left out of the loop and that you'd like to make decisions about where your money is spent.

You'd be horrified by what tradesmen charge these days BTW!


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## deiseboys (29 Aug 2006)

Yes your right I would not have liked the job.  Thats why time was needed to get our heads around things.  I cant say I would have done any better and there are no arguements on my part, except putting money in for me without asking, and just needed to know could I say NO, before things get out of hand.


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## pat127 (29 Aug 2006)

I’m glad that the respondents have made things clearer to you and that you now understand just what power (or lack of it) the various functions have. Regarding the money that was ‘taken’ from you, you now understand that it wasn’t appropriate for that to happen, but let me give some thoughts.

As you now know, the Executor is free to decide what should be spent on the house etc and where to get the money from and you’ve no right to be consulted about it. Usually however, the Executor can be trusted to spend money wisely and there’s no problem. Many will consult and advise the Beneficiaries I’m sure.

In your case however, rather than using money he could have taken from the Estate he has taken it from you without your permission. That makes you a Creditor as far as I am concerned and he is legally obliged to pay all Debts out of the Estate before distributing it. 

He however may not actually realise this. That suggests that you first have a private word with him and if this doesn’t work and you are determined to get your money, you are free to write to him, reminding him of his legal obligations and demanding your money back as part of settling the Estate. Your only other choice is to let it go, because if he refuses, you’ll be forced to sue him after the Estate is distributed and that has all sorts of other implications.

Good luck to you whatever way it turns out.


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## deiseboys (30 Aug 2006)

Thank you everyone for advise, you have been a great help.  Waiting to see what happens next, before I agree or disagree to the 1k.


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## December (5 Sep 2006)

Just as regards the valuation on the house only a week after your mothers death: a lot of people (particularly older people who have had their property for quite a while) do not have their homes insured to the current market value.  It is a good idea to have the property insured to this current market value as soon as possible, given that anything could happen to the house between your mother's death and the date of sale, particularly (although you don't mention this), if the house is going to be left vacant.

Just a thought!


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## liteweight (5 Sep 2006)

Very good point.


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