# Key Post: geothermal heating system/ground source heat pump



## extopia

Anyone got any comments on the reliability/efficiencies of such a system, which allegedly uses the earth's natural heat to warm your house. Would especially like to hear from anyone who has installed such a system or knows someone who has.
Thanks


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## legend99

*..*

Isn't it so expensive for install that it takes more than 20 years or something to pay for itself?


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## extopia

*Re: costs*

I've heard that statistic.... but not sure that it means anything. Does an oil system EVER pay for itself? If it pays for itself at all well that's  a positive. Am interested in being environmentally friendly and also not being dependent on oil. Gas is not an option where I am.


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## murray

*heat-pump*

Hi extopia,
We starting our build in the next 6 weeks and will be installing a geothermal heating system.  We have researched this thoroughly and think that it only takes 3-5 years to pay for itself.  With the rising price of oil and the fact that it will probably run out within the next 20-30 years, we figured it was worth the extra hassle and (initial) expense.  If you are going to go down this route, it's probably worth factoring in extra insulation in order to maximise the efficiency of your system.


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## extopia

*Re: heat-pump*

Murray, which system and company did you use? I'm looking at ClimateMaster.


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## heinbloed

*prices for energy*

As long as oil is the major energy source all other energy 
prices will go up and down with the oil price.That is the principle of the free market.And night safer is only worth it - at the moment-since we have outdated energy plants.Once they are taken from the grit you have to pay for electricity what it costs.A taxi is not cheaper at night time.For example.And most of us -industry and private-need the warmth,the heat,during the day.So make sure that your financial calculations are based on economical realties and not on propaganda material.
For the environment it could  be better to use a geothermal system-as long as you use no electricity to run it .At least no conventional electricity but "green"electricity which is more expensive.Think also about the Grey energy that is embedded in the product.A product that costs €5000 contains energy worth....€5000!Usually that is "cheap","dirty" energy,market forces usually enforce the usage of cheap 
energy during the manufacturing process.Watch the company producing/selling/installing the product o they use "green" energy ?What sort of cars do they drive etc.?What happens to the profits that they make?A bigger company car for the Boss?An extra flight holiday for the sales man?An energy consuming equipment does NEVER  pay for it self since it DEMANDS permanently energy.
The solution for this problem:an energy PRODUCING equipment ! Like for example solar energy,wind energy."Green" energy pays for itself (it will be a net earner once the installation costs have been covered),all other forms of energy production will always cost !Think logical.


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## extopia

*Re: prices for energy*

Interesting points, heinbloed.

But say I install a wind turbine on my land, that would produce more energy than I can use. It can't be a net earner unless I can sell the excess energy ("green" though it may be).

I doubt if I could ever justify the cost.

The Climatemaster system I'm looking at indeed uses electricity, as do most heating systems. But it uses no "direct" oil, and if one can believe the literature and the sales pitch, produces an additional 3 units of energy for each unit of purchased electrical energy. They claim that's 3 free units, but of course you pay for the system so nothing is actually free.

In choosing a heating system I'm looking for the following (in order of priority):

1. Comfort. I want the system to be capable of heating my house to an acceptable level for each member of my family.

2. Reliability. It has to keep working, especially in winter.

3. Cost-efficiency. I'm prepared to pay more now for a system that's more reliable in the long term, and that does not require constant "re-fills" (apart from the power element).

4. Eco-friendliness. If it fulfills the above and is better for the earth, great. I'll pay more than I would for an equally comfortable/reliable/cost-efficient but less environmentally friendly system, within limits.

I'm interested in your comment that a system that costs €5000 contains €5000 worth of energy. Do you mean that the profit element is necessarily used by the manufacturers to purchase "excess" energy, for example by driving bigger cars than you or I? How can one prove this kind of statement? It's a very interesting thought and I'd be interested in knowing more about your line of reasoning.

For what it's worth, I can't speak for the ClimateMaster operation because I haven't seen it, but the main distributor here, whose offices I have visited, is by no means a Flash Harry. Modest Industrial Estate warehouse building with one modest office and a couple of chairs for visitors. Nice people it has to be said. 

Expensive system though, in the underfloor configuration I am interested in. Is it worth it? I reckon about twice the cost of a system based on an oil burner, but with lower ongoing costs. Haven't done the maths in any detailed way yet though. What else should I be considering? I'll be going with Poroton block construction in the extensions to my house, but the main building is 70-year-old rough stone construction, which needs total renovation.

Thanks for your thoughts, tell me more.


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## Arrowmania

*Considering geothermal also!!*

Great to see an informed discussion on this topic!!

I am currently building a house on my own land which will be the only house I will ever live in. I have been looking into the geothermal system as the main way of providing heat energy to run an underfloor heating system for my house. My feelings on it are that it seems like a great efficient system to run but the initial capital cost is scaring me a bit.

Different builders and plumbers who I have talked to about it have looked at me as if I had two heads and the usual comments are 'unproven', 'what if there is a leak', 'why not stick to the proven oil burner'. People in the general trade are extremely sceptical but then the same was probably true when people went from open fires as the main source of heat to an oil burner heating radiators. I myself think that the traditional oil fired burner could be on the way out as carbon taxes and other such measures are imposed on home-heating oil for use in burners which could be wildly inefficient and which can't be regulated or inspected.

Apart from the initial capital cost of a heat-pump I fully understand that, for the system to achieve payback on the initial capital cost, it needs to be efficient to run and this depends on making use of night-rate elecricity. Heinbloed's comments that night-rate could soon be a think of the past would have a major impact here and are very worrying.

I'll be watching this discussion with interest so keep the comments flowing!


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## extopia

*Re: Considering geothermal also!!*

I would't worry too much about the comments of your builders and plumbers, who tend to be conservative about adopting new methods. Underfloor heating is widely used all over the globe, so it's hardly "unproven." It's just that it's relatively unusual here in Ireland. Your plumber knows how to fix leaks in a conventional system so that's what he wants to install.

Good question though, What if there IS a leak? I'd imagine its location would be fairly obvious in the concrete floor, part of which would then have to be taken up for the repair. Not TOO complicated but certainly harder than fixing an exposed pipe.


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## kfpg

*Geothermal Discussion...Great !!!*

Also delighted to see a discussion on this. I am building and have been researching this for ages. From what I can make out more and more companies are springing up and getting into heat pumps - there in itself is a danger. My research leads me to believe that this is a job where you go with the recognised experts in both geo and underfloor, companies who have been at this for a good number of years, have plenty of installations and are willing to give you phone numbers for happy customers (they all seem slow to respond in this area!!) There have been price discrepancies between all companies but I don't see an outlay of any less than €22k covering this installation.(my house is 2,800 sq ft)
Approx rough figures
Underfloor 8
Geothermal 10
Groundwork 1
Extras 1 (Kingspan insulation under pipes, other fittings etc)
Installation Cost 2 ???

It's obvious you have to be taking a long term view on this investment. Even though it is probably (??) cheaper to run, the payback I guess is 10 -15 years minimum. One concern here is that in 15 years time will the pump be either still working or as efficient as it is in the early years? Just when you think its pay back time perhaps there will be further investment required in the system.

I also believe that its wrong to focus too much on the heat pump itself to the exclusion of the devices and sensors which will "call" for heat to be sent to the floors / rooms. Spend as much attention on this i.e. individual zone (room) control, ideally digital stats with timers and temp control etc. Its as important for the system to stop calling for heat and the other way round. Example two downstairs rooms but only one sensor. Room A has high solar gain and heats up quickly due to large windows, room B is north facing with smaller window. Only one stat is calling for 19 degrees overall. By the time Room B reaches 19 it could be 22 degrees in Room A (underfloor on although room already warm) due to the heat not being able to shut off separately here. Answer = individual room zones and control.

Anyway back to the heat pump what we all really need are long term, happy users to contribute, they may well not be on Askaboutmoney?? Please keep the posts going as ye all find out more...


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## extopia

*Re: happy customers*

Excellent point kfpg. I'll ask the salesman I've been dealing with for some customer references.


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## harto1

*Re: Geothermal heating system*

Good post.

Am also planning a build and looking at heatpumps, mechanical ventilation and heat recovery, extra insulation, underfloor heating etc

I think the heat pump issue is set to become a hot topic in the coming 2-3 years. I have read recently that county councils and garda stations which are building new offices are using heat pumps. Now when public sector bodies who are often criticised as slow moving are adapting to new technology then I believe that points to a certain shift in thinking. 

I believe the government should also be doing a lot more to encourage self builders as well as developers to go in this direction. There should be some form of grant aid and reduced or zero rated vat on the products, like in the uk and other european countries. I have also written an email on the subject to Minister Martin Cullen  minister@environ.irlgov.ie . The response from the department was non-committal as you would expect, but did say to watch for future developments on the issue.

Although the technology is new here, it it tried and tested in many other countries around the world. It would be really interesting to have feedback from people using the system in Ireland.

On the electricity issue, if electricity does go up then don't forget standard boilers and heating systems use electricity too so they are affected. The oil companies use electricity, and will factor increases into their prices. Just think that as heatpump installations grow, particularly in rural areas, there will be less oil or gas delivery trucks frequenting the roads
reducing the risk of spillages and traffic pollution.


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## murray

*geothermal heat pumps*

Hi Extopia,
We have decided to go with a company in Cork called Alternative Heating and Cooling http://www.ahac.ie  We recently visited a satisfied customer and grilled them about the company and the system for about 3 hours.  I would highly recommend you do the same.  This will also give you a much clearer picture as to how the system will work in your own house.  Generally people (especially self-builds) are only too happy to show you around and talk about their house.
Good luck.


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## davelerave

*heating*

i'm on a job now where they're installing it,the pipe runs up and down the floor  with about a foot spacing between loops.i'm sure they pressure test the initial installation work and i see them taking photographs of the pipe layout.i think there might be some sort of backup for the ground heat like an immersion heater type thing but i'm not sure ,i wasn't talking to them


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## heinbloed

*geothermal heating pumps*

I would be very interested to see some calculations on 
a.) costs to run a heating pump,what are these costs
     based on etc.
b.) the environmental costs,carbon dioxide , land use , 
     etc.
c.) maintenance costs
d.) experience by a user
I myself use underfloor heating and I am happy with it.It takes much longer to heat up the room from zero but no problem with the right thermostats.And in combination with a condensing boiler it is not  more expensive to run than a conventional rad. system.And with good insulation and sun facing windows it is cheaper to run.I use LPG and have a 1400l tank in use since June last year , still the first filling despite that it used for cooking and warm domestic water as well,10% still left in the tank.So more than a year heating ,warm water, cooking for €400.When I think of my old ,damp and cold semi
detached-what a difference! 
So underfloor heating gets my thumbs up but I am still not convinced by the geothermal heating system.The SEI was not too convinced either,seeing the point of carbon dioxide emissions.Electricity from the Irish grid contains only 1% or 2% non-CO2 emitting prime energy.
Electricity is the must polluting form of energy use.So if there comes a carbon tax it will hit electricity prices hardest.On the web page of the SEI are some numbers available concerning CO2 emissions by various energy forms, see www.sei.ie
Keep posting, it is an interesting issue.


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## harto1

*Re: geothermal heating pumps*

This article also from the SEI makes for an interesting read.
It gives energy and co2 reductions calculations for different energy saving standards which could be applied to a house. So you can compare on a par the effects of passive solar gain, better heating system (condensing bolier), improved insulation, solar water heating, heat pump.

[broken link removed]

The heat pump does not fair as well as the condensing bolier run on natural gas for example, but when compared with an oil powered boiler it achieves a considerable decrease of CO2 emmission.


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## heinbloed

*geo-heating pump*

Hi harto1!
The sei page gives no figures of cost comparing a geo-heating system with some other systems.The important number in such a calculation is the cost for electricity.Where is the break even point -€cents per usable kilowatt hour heating energy ? This number makes a financial calculation a genuine calculation.A pity that we don't have any numbers regarding that point.....And as far as I searched no trader of geothermal heating pumps gives out such a number.Geothermal heating is on the market on the continent since many years.But it never reached mass satisfaction i.e. only in certain cases -when heat is needed at night time(nightsafer) and when the system is used for cooling as well.The long pay-back times of 20 jears or so haven't made it possible to give a final result,if the night safer -or electricity prices in general -goes up than all the financial calculations have to be adjusted.
In my opinion a good insulation of the building makes a geothermal heating system surplus.The lesser the demand for energy the longer the payback time.And with a low energy house or a passive house the pay back time would be somewhere in eternity. 
The money for a geothermal heating system is better invested in insulation.Energy that is not needed won't be payed for since it won't be consumed.Equipping a badly insulated building with an expensive heating system makes no sense  no matter which system is used.
But I have an open mind for any figures and would welcome the posting of any of those.


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## glenamaddy

*Re: geo-heating pump*

heinbloed, what make, model and output boiler do you use?


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## kfpg

*Geothermal Un-necessary in Well Insulated House*

Heinbloed, thanks for your post, as always you make some great points. My situation leads me to think you would be cautious about the large investment in geothermal if you were in my position. As you recommend I plan to insulate my house well,

Wall Cavity Increased from 100mm to 125mm (4" to 5") to allow extra insulation.
Cavity to be fully pump filled with Polypearl beads.
Windows proposed considered to be the best available in terms of insulation quality, timber frame, double glaze, well sealed, gas filled K glass, low e (etc)
Large panes South facing for passive gain.
Smaller Panes for north facing windows.
Propose to use all insulation in loft etc with good K values
(not sure what else I can do)

Anyway from your post I take the point that a geothermal system in this house could have a 20 plus year payback which is not very attractive. I feel now that I might be well advised to look at a condensing type boiler to run in conjunction with underfloor heating. My question to you is if you have much knowledge of gas condensing versus oil condensing, which would be the best??


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## heinbloed

*geo-heating pump*

Hi glenamaddy !
For my underfloor heating I use a "vokera hydra" which is a modulating condensing combi boiler.It "modulates" the heating output automatically from a minimum of 8 kw up to a maximum of 26 kw depending on demand.These are the numbers for a flow temperature of 50 degrees Celsius and a return temperature of 30 degrees Celsius , taken from the installation and servicing instructions.Since I adjusted the flow to around 40 degrees -the return is about 5 degrees lower- it operates at its minimum output.The house is well insulated and floor heating does not demand higher temperatures.The efficiency is 90.3%, which means that 9.7% of the primary energy is lost as steam.
"Combi" means it produces hot tap water as well ,on demand , without the need for a holding tank. 
The calculations I got from the underfloor heat. manufacturer rated the demand for heating at 8 kw.At the time there where no smaller boilers available,so my over sized model would produce enough output for two more houses."Vailant" and a few other manufacturers are producing smaller boilers but you have to check your self to get one in Ireland.Try Heatmerchants.For efficiency check www.sedbuk.com


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## heinbloed

*Geothermal Un-necessary....*

Hi kfpg!
I read at your earlier post that you plan to build a 300 square meter house , with the installation costs of €11.000 for the geothermal system.I really don't know if it would take 20 years to make up the difference toward a condensing boiler.From what I heard -from manufacturers -the heat exchanger will last about that long. I suppose since they work similar like a  fridge that life time could be right.But a boilers life time is shorter-probably only 10 years.And it needs servicing as well, about once per year.Condensing boilers run - in combination with underfloor heating-on low output,so there is little strain on them which makes maintenance cheap and easy-the same as with the geo heat exchanger .The higher the output the faster the end of life time is reached .
If you have gas available go for it.It is slightly more expensive than oil but the boilers are cheaper and might last longer.Oil contains sulfur which turns into sulfuric acid in combination with water.that woul attack the heat exchanger.You could opt for low sulfur oil ( kerosene-a bit more expensive than homeheating oil) but that would still contain much more sulfur than gas.If you use the cheaper home heating oil you might have to neutralize the acid in the condensing water before it would be discharged to the sewer.This problem does not occur with the gas powered boilers since gas contains to little sulfur to form a corrosive condensate.It is actually so clean that you can use it in the steam iron. 
Since you are still in the planning stage check with your engineer if it would make sense to use the insulation on the outside of the house instead of in the cavity.You would get more thermal heat storage capacity with thicker walls what would be of benefit since you plan to use passive solar heating-the well insulated windows on the south side.The more mass is facing the interior of the building the more capacity the building has to store the heat .The mass behind the insulation (the second wall outside) has no beneficial thermal storage capacity.It could be  - I am only speculating here- that it could work diametrical to the energy demand:Since nights are longer in winter (during the heating season) than days and colder than the days , the outer leaf of the cavity wall might actually store the cold of the night.For example when in the morning the air temperature rises above the previous  night temperature this warmer temperature will take a long time (together with the sun radiation) to warm up the outer wall .So during the day-when the need for heat is largest -the house would be sorounded by a layer of cold concrete.Colder than the air outside since it cooled down during the night and slow to warm up.
Another question to ask the engineer is the position of the dew point in the wall.The dew point is the place where water vapor turns into droplets.In any wall it should be as far outside as possible.The further away from the inside the warmer the feeling of the wall inside.
Some builders who choose the cavity wall overcome that problem by choosing two different thicknesses of blocks-the thinner ones on the inside and the thicker ones on the outside as far as I remember.So that the dew point would be more toward the outer wall than toward the inner wall.


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## kfpg

*Geothermal Justification*

Heinbloed - unfortunately all your advise on block walls won't help me as blocks are progressing already, also just to clarify house size is 2800 sq feet. 

Anyway having thought some more about the geo question I have already decided that I want underfloor heating so my only investment decision left is oil / gas condensing boiler costs versus geothermal heat pump costs.

My ballpark figures say 4000 euro for condensing versus up to 12000 (incl VAT) for geothermal which leaves an € 8000 extra investment / payback justification question. Considering that the house is well insulated regardless of which I go for then I have already lowered my running costs which ever decision I make.

If I were targeting a 10 year payback, then to recoup my extra 8000 investment it would have to be 800 euro per year cheaper to run the heat pump than the boiler. My only reference point is an actual users cost of €650 per year electricity cost to run a geo heat pump in a 3000 square feet house although with at best normal levels of insulation. I would therefore hope with better insulation and smaller house to be have electrical running costs of say € 500. 

That means to achive the stated 10 year payback gas or oil would need to be costing me in the region pf €1300 per year in the same house, I am not sure it would be that expensive.

Has anyone got annual running costs for gas / oil condensing boilers with underfloor heating they could post to this thread, probably need to qualify costs stated with square feet or metres of house. Thanks.


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## sueellen

*Re: Geothermal heating system*

"Has anyone got annual running costs for gas / oil condensing boilers with underfloor heating they could post to this thread, probably need to qualify costs stated with square feet or metres of house. Thanks."

Have you read  this thread Underfloor Heating and checked out some of the links contained therein?


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## heinbloed

*geothermal justification*

Thanks kfpg for the correction -2800 square feet are more in the region of 260 m2 .I use about 1400 liters of LPG (ca.€400) for 96m2 underfloor heating incl. cooking and warm water for shower/taps in 13 or 14 month.So that would be around 4200 liters or €1200 in a house of your size( Tank in ownership,no rent to be payed and access to the "free"market .) 
 I think 1 liter of LPG contains about 7kwh's.
A condensing boiler for €4000 is very expensive,a Vokera Combi is about €1800 incl. VAT . ( Installation and certification for about €300 I guess. )
So the running costs of the geo thermal pump would be less than half of that,provided the ratio of energy prices stay the same.
Unless you have access to the gas network.Lets say you need 30,000 kwh's per year and you have a ratio of 1 :4 (investment : gain) with the heat pump you would have to buy 7300 kwh  electricity for €0.127 each which is €927.Which is ca.€300 better than the €1,200 for LPG.
But natural gas is cheaper than LPG , I would say half the money.
So when you decide for condensing with LPG -according to your numbers- €8,0000 investment difference : €300 running difference means about 27 years of payback time.If you go for natural gas than this number would double-54 years.Taking into the calculations that a condensing boiler lasts only 10 years versus 20 years of a geothermal pump the pay back time would then be roughly halved ;13.5 years for LPG or 27 years for natural gas.
So 13.5 years pay back time against LPG but no pay back against natural gas-before this is achieved you need a new heat exchanger (geothermal pump)
Minus 2% or so   for the cooking with the (LPG-) gas.
Now these are the numbers my home versus your home,we might have different users habits and insulation of the buildings.


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## kfpg

*Geothermal Justification*

Thanks Heinbloed, a few comments....

I calculate 13 litres per square metre per year for your house.
((1400/13.5 mths)*12 mths)/96 m2
For my house then I would use only 260 * 13 = 3380 litres.

Your LPG seems cheap at 29c per litre (€400/1400).
I had heard more like 32c to 36c per litre. Who supplies you?
Anyway lets round up to 30c and my annual LPG would be approx €1000 (3380*0.30).

I hope for electric running costs of €500 per year with geothermal.
That gives a saving per year of €500 versus LPG.
Initial payback of 16 years which as per your comment effectively halves to 8 years as a second condensing boiler would have been purchased over that time (include annual boiler servicing costs and the payback is even quicker)

Other Factors:
I don't have access to the natural gas pipeline.
My estimate of €4000 for gas boiler may well be too high.
When the heat pump fails it won't require a full system refit or even an entire new pump, probably just the compressor.
Our insulation and personal habits of course will differ.

I assume your €0.127 figure is the night rate electric per kWh?

Loads of variables....intersting stuff....thanks again.


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## kfpg

*geo*

I should have added another factor is I would also have to pay some rental charge for the gas bulk storage tank


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## heinbloed

*gas tank*

You could buy the tank for around € 1,000 incl.VAT and delivery.Then you need a platform to put it on, ca.€200 and a pipeline and someone to commission the installation-maybe the same person who connects the boiler.When you own the tank you are not bound to a fixed supplier.The free market is at least 20% cheaper than the standard rates published by  Flogas and Calorgas and you safe on the rental costs.I figured it out when I bought mine and came to the conclusion that for 10 years rent the tank is bought-€ 8 per month.Initially the costs are higher but in a remote place I probably have to wait longer for a gas connection than the gas will last.
I don't know how it works with the nightsafer tariff-don't you need the heat during daytime?For the electricity costs you have to keep in mind that there might come a carbon tax which would hit the electric energy hardest.
And how long the existing price structure/nightsafer will last after the opening of the market is speculation.The night tariffs in Germany are increasing more than the day tariffs.The excuse of the suppliers is that they are outphasing older power plants and switching to newer gas turbines that can be switched on and off by demand.The older plants are steam engines that take a long time to heat up and cool down and are running continuously delivering unwanted/surplus power at night that is sold cheap.Better cheap than nothing the owners calculate .
Yesterday was an article in  www.breakingnews.ie/
where a manager from Airtricity blamed the gouvernment for it's favoring of the ESB structures that will lead to a dependence on gas for generating electricity.He thinks that in 10 years time Ireland's electricity is generated 60%-80% by power plants using natural gas.
These are the modern type ones,not the steam engines.
So by-by nightsafer,at least for the smaller consumers.A certain amount of cheaper electricity might be available at nighttime but that would be sold to those who are willing to compete for it.I guess the aluminia industry would be fierce bidder for it.
But who knows what the future is like...
A problem with the oil tank is -in the worst case-ground water pollution.Once a well is polluted with oil it takes many years until the micro organisms have cleaned it up.In that case piped water might be necessary and in a rural place that could be very expensive.


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## extopia

*Re: underfloor heating*

Decided on underfloor heating in our renovation/extension.

I have a builder ready to pour foundations and subfloor, and want to make sure we get everything right (naturally!) At this point of our project the builder will dig out and rebuild our existing floors (one is old concrete with no DPM, the other suspended timber which we have already removed).

Can someone post ideal thicknesses and depths of a good concrete floor from the floor level down to the foundation along the lines of:

Floor tile: x mm
Screed containing underfloor pipes: y mm
Insulation: z mm
Concrete slab: xx mm
Hardcore: yy mm

Thanks


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## heinbloed

*different solutions*

Each floor/foundation is different.Much depends on the subsoil structure and on the building that will be erected on it.Make sure that the DPM and the radon barrier are gap less.Special tape should be used to seal pipework going through the slab.On the continent they insulate under the slab and they have the same soil temperature as we have here.Check the homepage of aerobard,I think they show on a drawing what needs to be done.Use as much insulation as you can afford,the usual 55mm are very little,an UFH system runs on low temperatures so insulation is a key point.Turning up the temperature on the boiler to get a higher output works with radiators but a concrete floor might burst and that in turn might crack the pipes .And using the soil under the house as a practicable heat storage is a builders
 myth.
The thickness of the floor tiles should go in your calculation of the system,ask the provider of the UFH system for a calculation of the heat output/boiler demand.Usually these calculations are provided for free.The smaller the pipes the higher the risk of bends and blockages.But as higher the diameter as more water is to be heated up(energy!).Most manufacturers go for 12-18 mm.
Make sure that the rooms are high enough-at least one block extra to the usual 2.4 m.


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## sueellen

*Re: >>Geothermal heating system*

*Some other posts*

*gollmacmorna
Registered User
Ground Source Heat Pump - Is it hard on electricity?*

I am planning on building a house in the next year or so I am thinking of installing a heating system based on a Ground Source heat pump.
Does anyone have one of these installed at home?
Can they give an idea of the running costs (amount of electricity used by the pump)?

*heinbloed
Unregistered User
hard on electricity*

I haven't got one but thought about purchasing one until I got some figures from the German Dep. of environment. They stated that there is no gain for the environment in relation to CO2 emissions , meaning that the delivered electricity that you will use has caused as much climate demage as you will save on CO2 by not using fossile fuels instead .
On the other hand - the Germans produce about 30% of their electricity from nuclear fuel and about 8% from renewables - it might be an option if you purchase your electricity from a non nuclear and renewable resource. That option we -the private consumer- don't have at the moment (here in Ireland ) unless you run a windmill or some other form of CO2-nutreal electricity generating 
yourself-incl.batterys or some other form of energy storage ( hydrogen?).
Than the problem arises with "failure of system"-what damage can be caused if the pipework leaks? Usually the heat exchanging fluid is water but it needs an anti-corrosive agent mixed in and maybe also an antifreeze agent . If one of them leaks than you will pollute the ground water ( your water) .And you wouldn't know where the leakage has ocured meaning you have to reinstall the whole (soil-)heat exchanger again.Don't forget Murphys law!
The smaller the system the easier it can be fixed.The cheaper it is the cheaper it can be replaced.Between these two technical rules you have to find a compromise.
I personally decided to go for a condensing boiler (92% efficiency) powered with LPG (since I have my own well and can not "afford" to pollute the ground water).
And than there are the costs of getting a system : Keep in mind that in a free market dealing in reproduceable goods every unit (€) of money represents it's value in energy meaning when you purchase something worth €5000 you "purchase" energy worth €5000 . If you give/ spend €5000 to some one he/she will buy something for € 5000 which will contain energy/env.demage worth €5000.
It is wiser to save energy than to produce it.So it would be more money/env. wise to install extra insulation than to produce energy by means of high capital investment.Homes can be build to use less than 10kw/m2 without to much effort/capital.And this method of building lasts for the lifetime of the building,any heating appliance needs replacement after some time. 

*elderdog
Registered User*

300% efficiency is about what is normally claimed so if you need ( say ) 12kW/hr to heat your house the thing will use about 4kW/hr of electricity. 

Very cheap if you can run it on night rate...

Remember the temp of the warmed water is much lower than that from a boiler so you will need much larger radiators & pipes

In Japan a form of ground source heat pump based on a gas powered engine in commonly used. Engine rotation drives the thermodynamic pump and excess heat from the engine is put through a heat exchanger to boost the temp of the output water.

Dont think they have reached here - wonder why ?


eDog 

*heinbloed
Unregistered User
heat pump*

I did some research, elderdog has spoken about the gas driven ones, these are the only ones that are recommended by the "German energy users "(an energy consumers organisation)
www.energienetz.com

They also say that none of the 20 (electrical)heatpumps tested by "oekotest" -an environmentally conscious consumerorganisation- has a benefit for the environment compared with condensing boilers.The worst one emits 71% CO2 more !
Only 2 models , " Hautec HWS 3048 " and "Stiebel WPWE 11 KW " had similar Co2 emissions -but only when combined with underfloor heating.Combined with radiators none is better for the environment.Another disadvantage is that their benefit for the environment (CO2) compared with an oil fired non condensing boiler will be eliminated if the heat pump is combined with a solar heating system due to the lower running hours .What sounds absurd at the first glance is logic when one realises that every investment should have a short payback time.Combining the two systems makes the larger-more expensive one-
uneconomical. 

*gollmacmorna
Registered User
reconsider*

Thanks for the advice. The heat pump system doesn't seem as attractive with all the potential hassle involved, main concern being if something goes wrong it will cost a packet to sort out.
will probably go for a condensing boiler and loads of insulation.. 

*Mac
Unregistered User
heat pumps*

Am in a similar position to yourself. Some good comments in this post so far. Will definitely be packing extra and better quality insulation in wherever possible. 

Am still not convinced whether to just go the condensing boiler route or whether the heat pump is still worth considering. One extra comment I would make is that the availability of fossil fuel reserves are on an ever decreasing timeline. This fact appears undisputed presently, with many different figures being quoted around such as 2015-2020 as being a period when oil supplies could become critical. At such a time the supply/demand will severely influence prices, add to that any interim carbon taxes etc, then a heat pump may become very beneficial. I know the electricity companies use fossil fuels also, but we would presume that on a percentage basis they would be less reliant on these fuels compared to now. 

Just a thought. 

*Hot Dog
Unregistered User
re : MAC*

Mac, 

Best to head for a better climate long before we get to that stage 


Looks like two different motivations here

1 Low cost heating

2 Save the planet from CO2

Is using night rate electricity any more harmful CO2 wise than not using it ? 

Wouldnt the generators be running anyway ? 

Isnt that why night rate electricity is priced very cheap ?


*gollmacmorna
Registered User
No heating/ cooling system*

I just came across this site last night , 
www.enertia.com

may be of interest. 
High levels of insulation is definitely the way to go with argon filled low emmisive windows (such as Pilkington K-glass).

*heinbloed
Unregistered User
nightrate/CO2*

Good/modern power plants can be turned on /off within minutes.Electricity demand is -when uncertainties like windfarms are taken in to account-calculate able for about 90 minutes.We have only 2 % of our elec.generated by windfarms so we don't have to take this "uncertainty" into account because there has to be always extra power available in the grit anyhow.
To the point:every unit of electricity consumed damages the environment.Using "nightsaver" electricity means using electricity that is generated by ineffectiv power plants -those that have to run day and night because it takes to long to switch them on and off on demand.
By purchasing "nightsafer" you subsidise dinos that would have been dead because of marketforces(PROFITABILITY) since a long time.
Buying nightsafer means you subsidise the daytarif -the
profit that these old power plants generate are made at peaktimes of demand.Some,if not most, of our powerplants operate on less than 50% efficiency,in generating terms speaking.Taking into account the environmental damage that is caused by transporting the fuel to them,the (environmental!)wars that are fought to get that fuel and the loss between powerplant and consumer the bill looks very bleak for the environment,I go so far to say if we don't purchase the "nightsafer" no more than several of these dinos would have to switch off for good.Of course they would have to be replaced by others to cover peak demand but investors-not job creators like the gouvernment-would look after that so they get plenty of their investments back,plus profits of course.In the old monopolistic times it didn't matter how expensive electricity was produced , it was take it or leave it for the consumer.With an opening of the market
very soon
(a)   the price for the nightsafer tariff will rocket(see other free markets)
(b)   and the price of electricity in general will go up since the bangers which had been paid for long ago will be scrapped and to be replaced by new ,capitalintensive ones.
Just look around in the rest of the world where the free market in electricity sales had been introduced.
If ou don't understand something feel free to ask,some information can be extracted from the ESB website as well.


----------



## Tip

*Aerothermal*

Has anyone heard of Sweco in Wicklow. They supply an aerthermal system which they say is more suited to the \irish climate.


----------



## gollmacmorna

*Re: >>Aerothermal heating system*

I have spoken to SWECO about their Aerothemal Sytem.
The type of low energy house I am building could be heated by the SWECO 7 (7.1KW output of heat).

This will heat radiators hot water etc. using 1.3 KW/hr  of electricity.

At 11c per  KW/hr ( If I am correct??) for daytime usage you could have 6 hrs. of heat for example for 6 x 11c =66c ??? If this is correct 

Nightrate electricity while it still exists is 4.5c per KW/hr.
so timing the heat pump to come on to avail of the night rate to heat up your house would make sense.

The system is fairly costly though at about €8,000 including installation commissioning etc.

I am still in two minds about either getting one of these or a pellet stove/ boiler.

I intend to insulate the house to practically zero heating standard so it will probably boil down to convenience of use and long term performance ...in this case the heat pump could be  worth considering


----------



## heinbloed1

*Aerothermal heating system*

Make sure you get what you need.And be careful with business partners who claim that using electricity "creates no emissions" as sweco/ie. does.
Misleading advertising,several court cases in Germany had been decided in favour of consumer organisations and competitors that this claim is wrong.
Make sure you need a heat output of 35 degrees,that would be good enough for an underfloor heating but not for radiators.
Using a heating means using it roughly 150 days per year on full demand,100 days at 100%,100 days at 50%.
That gives us 150 days the full costs:1.3kw/h x 24h x 150 days =4680 kw at a price of € 0.1385/kwh= €648.18 .That is a lot,more expensive than all other forms of heating except direct electrical heating.Using the night saver rate in the calculation is not viable,you need the heat during the day.The night is short and the extra costs of the night rate meter (€18 per two month) must be included.Plus the costs of domestic hot water at about 1.5 kw per shower.Two adults twice a day for a year for about 1000 kw.
The sweco aerothermal heating system is a  totally wastefull way of heating , in my opinion.
If you really want an aerothermal heat exchanger than go for a gas driven one,there are many available,they run cheaper at about half the costs compared with electricity.
Sweco gives a gain of 35 degrees from a source that is 0 degrees cold.Are you sure that you need 35 degrees when it is o degrees cold outside?And when it gets minus 5 degrees,doe you still have enough output? Demand a full calculation spread sheet before you decide signing the contract.


----------



## kfpg1

*Geothermal - Plan B !!*

For a long time I have been committed to going with a geothermal heat pump system. As it is getting closer to decision time now I have had a site inspection done and following this I now have some doubt in my mind.

My site has a very high water table (less then 0.5 metres below surface in wettest part of year) combined with poor percolation results from the ground ( a result of daub / clay type soil).

Therefore it is questionable as to how efficiently the ground source collector will draw heat from the ground. A principle of the collector is that it gains heat from rain water / moisture percolating down through the soil and passing away from the pipe subsequently. In my case it seems this principle may not be successful for the reasons stated above.

I am posting this not only to share my experience with others but also to ask now that I have to consider a Plan B approach to ask 

1.What are the most efficient oil and gas condensing boiler models and manufacturers readily available on the Irish market? 

2.Are any specifically designed / configured to run underfloor heating?

3.Is either oil or gas condensing preferable above the other?

Thanks !!


----------



## heinbloed1

*Plan B ?*

The idea of a ground thermal heating is to collect heat from the ground,not from the surface , kfpg1 .
The ground should give you a temperature at around 8 degrees,but the surface could freeze during winter.At least the farmers are not allowed to spread slurry once the top (soil) temperature drops below 0 degrees.And that is during winter,when the heating demand is high.Therefore a ground source heat exchanger should be dug in the ground at least 1.5 meters deep to guarantee an even temperature and plenty of it.The winter can be long.The longer you run the system the colder the surrounding ground will get.And therefore it is an advantage to have the heat exchanger surrounded by ground water and not the opposite.Water is a good heat transmitter(central heating!) and will increase the potential of a ground source heating pump.Some use lakes and rivers to take out the energy,some use ground water.Using dry soil would demand a larger loop to increase the surface of it.And the dry soil would cool down faster.
The cheapest (gas) condensing combi boiler I have seen was a
Vokera Synthesy 24 kw (which is very big,probably over sized for your home)for €1400 incl.VAT from OB Heating in Cork,price from October '04.But not a modulating model,these would cost an extra €400.A modulating boiler will save you another 5% or so since it does not fire up as frequently as an on/off model.During the firing-up/start process boilers are wasting energy.All condensing gas boilers can be fitted for natural or LPG gas at little or no extra costs(Vokera does that for free).LPG is cheaper than natural gas-once you own your tank.
As far as I know there is only 1 modulating condensing boiler running on oil available, called maxi something.
I could find out for you.Or try yourself at www.sedbuk.com/
Have you figured out what it would cost to go solar in combination with super insulation/passive home?
Get your engineer to provide you with a heat calculation sheet,he is obliged to do that.Than decide for the heating system.The smaller the boiler output(kw) the better for your wallet and the environment.And remember that you would hardly heat the entire home during the same time,so a home with a total heat demand of for example 10kw might need only 8 kw for most of the time. 
If you like to make your boiler an optical feature check
 the Vailant boilers,top of the range boilers,small and smart.Not the usual bold box shape.Something for the entrance hall.


----------



## murray

*Geothermal - Plan B !!*

Hi Kfpg,
We also had to resort to a plan B when we realized that we hadn't enough depth in the soil for the geothermal pipes.  We are drilling instead, similar to a well, and using the closed loop system.  The principle is the same and we feel the extra cost will be worth it.  We are also planning to install a wood pellet stove for additional heat in the house.
M.


----------



## kfpg1

*Plan B*

Heinbloed, thanks as always for your kind, considered and informative replies, I always look forward to them.

I think perhaps you miss one critical point about my situation - the collector area is in ground which has extremely poor drainage / percolation.

This means that the collector will rob the water (essentially "still" water) of all its heat - increasing the likelihood of freezing- the water is not then replaced as it has nowhere to go !! it stays there in the ground. In a typical collector this water drains down vertically and is replaced by new water (rainwater) filtering down from the surface which provides new thermal energy. Of course the ground does have thermal energy in addition to water in the ground but in my case the high water table means this aspect of the collector is critical.

In a lake or river the surface area for collecting the suns energy is abundant and provides continuous energy for the collector as it flows over it. This is not the case in a field with lots of water underground but with no flow ar percolation. 

Any thoughts?


----------



## extopia

*Re: Geothermal - Plan B !!*

Hi kfpg,

Who exactly has suggested to you that a high water table is a problem? 

As I understand it, one of the principles of using a ground loop is that ground temperatures (at a depth of at least 1.5m) are relatively stable year round, regardless of the geological characteristics of the site. So even if you have a lot of water underground, it's relatively warm.

I don't believe the ground loop would draw enough heat out of the ground to significantly lower the ground temperature and cause freezing around your pipes -- surely geological heat transfers up from the center of the earth as well as down from warm rainwater etc.

Did this water table suggestion come from the supplier of a more conventional heating system?


----------



## heinbloed1

*Geothermal-Plan B*

I agree with extopia.If the water was stagnant in the ground it would smell very rotten,but that is beside the point.If it was stagnant you would be living in a lake without outlet.No groundwater is stagnant.If water penetrates the soil it goes somewhere.The only exemptions to this rule are prehistorical deposits as in the lower Sahara where there are large deposits of water 6000 years old or even older.And the other exemption are fresh bomb craters where the surrounding soil is heavily compacted,but even that is only temporary since the chemical influences of various types of soil mixed with each other (plus the effect of sunshine)will sooner or later loosen the crater walls and make the soil penetrable.Europe and Vietnam would be still flooded if that did not happen.
Make sure you have the right percolation test done,may be not by the company that wants to sell you a biocycle tank.Contact the supplier of a heat pump system and tell them the situation.
The only way that the surrounding soil of the heat collector area could freeze was if the dimension 
 chosen was much to small,i.e. not enough pipe work in the soil resp. the pipes are not spaced at the correct distance.But before it freezes you would realize that the pump would be working harder and harder since it would try to make up for the decreasing output of heat with more and more pumping .Like a fridge when you leave the door open.I heard from owners that they switch off the geothermal system during summer -dom.warm water made in the meantime with electricity from the grid or a solar panel-to give the collector area a "rest" to warm it up from below for winter's heating demand.
But the deeper you dig the warmer it gets ,about 1 degree for each 30 meters.That is -more or less- the same on the entire globe.Except you drill in Iceland or directly into a volcano(smiley).The heat for the geothermal ground pump comes from the center of earth,the  presence of water would make it easier to "tap"  this heat-if standing or flowing it won't matter in principle.


----------



## Builder

*Re: >>Geothermal heating system/Ground Source Heat Pump*

I see that someone is using pumped insulation in their build.  My architect has specified 60mm Xtratherm XT/CW insulation to comply with building reg. with min. U-value of .27, is pumped insulation better or what?


----------



## z102

*Re: >>Geothermal heating system/Ground Source Heat Pump*

Hi builder !
What exactly is Xtratherm ? If it is EPS ( expanded polystyrene ) beads than the 
U-value of a cavity wall would be better indeed by using them as compared  with the standard sheets of the same material . But that's it . Once you have filled the cavity the specific U-value has reached it's maximum . Instead of going for the standard U-value you should consider to go for something better. For example by building only a single leaf wall and insulating this from the outside with 40-50 cm polystyrene sheeting glued and anchored .This would give you a much higher heat retention . Or you could go for some other method . But keep in mind that building regulations concerning the U-value are minimum regulations, not the optimum. A standard home today will be  a substandard home  tomorrow .


----------



## yop

*Re: >>Geothermal heating system/Ground Source Heat Pump*

Lads, 
how did ye get on with Climate Control, I am looking at their DX system as opposed to the brine system, it has a high COP of 5.6 which is the best I can find out there.
SWECO broke my heart, could get no real sense out of them at all, went on about how Ashp is more efficent than a GSHP or a bore hole, after much research and talking to a few non biased people ASHP is probably the least efficent.

Heinbloed - the condenser boiler sounds interesting, a view I have not looked at. It has been a while since you posted prices, how are they running now for LPG and the likes, you have a big tank outside and the boiler inside I presume?


----------



## z102

*Re: >>Geothermal heating system/Ground Source Heat Pump*

The LPG price is 35 cents per liter . €0.35/l .If someone 

else has a better price - here is the place to put it .The company I'm buying from is Tervas from Cork. The same price as last year . Could any one be better ?!
I filled my 1400 l tank before it was empty , at 18% . Just a month ago . And this filling would last 'till next year October/December . If the climate doesn't change too much .... 
Forget air sourced heat pumps , yop . Condensing boilers are getting cheaper and better . Check the modulating ones running on LPG or natural gas . The better ones are modulating down to 4 or 4.5 kw/h . Have you checked the Sedbuk page recently ? Even the oil fed condensing boilers are coming up in choice and design .Only if you have a smaller demand than the 4-4.5 kw/h for the entire house a different heating supply would be financially interesting .
1 kw of electricity at peak time has to be produced with 3 kw primary energy from the grid , at least . So the environment would be better off as well.


----------



## yop

*Re: >>Geothermal heating system/Ground Source Heat Pump*

Ok, so been totally lazy, sorry! but based on your knowledge why would you install a condensing boiler above a GSHP? 
On our own case we are currently build a timberframe and are installing UFH to run at 35 deg C (just a closer run together of the pipes on the floor means more heat coverage) and are considering using a GSHP for our heat and DHW supply.

Personally I would did not think that a solar panel would be sufficent to give us heat and DHW, tbh I have not done mental investigation on this and the payback for solar is high based on its return (again this is the impression I have got from places on the internet)

We are looking at using a DX system with the refrigerant instead of the brine system. This Heliotherm heatpump is given a COP of 5.6 which from all the GSHP we looked it is definately the highest. 

We also looked at ASHP but to be honest I was not impressed.

Also looked at a bore hole but it was going to cost us about 6k more to install, all in.

Based on cost and performance, if you had the land and no neighbours with trees (as in our case  ) why would you not got for GSHP and why would you go with Condensing boilers which use a non renewable resource?

Thanks for your advice


----------



## z102

*Re: >>Geothermal heating system/Ground Source Heat Pump*






Because of the high costs combined with a limited output . If you plan to a.) extend your heating demand - what then ? . Or b.) if you want to sell - tell the seller that he has no choice of extending the building  ? Or c.) where do you get the electricity from ? It costs , no matter how green it is made . It costs the highest price of all fuels  per kilowatt delivered .



Once the energy stored in the ground is exhausted - what then ? Relying totally on electricity ? One month of heating with electricity per year is more expensive then running a condensing boiler on gas for 12 month . Or so .

What sort of refrigerant is the heliotherm using ? 

The energetic payback of a heat pump depends on the amount of extractable heat . Giving a flat figure -like 5.6 for example- is not a serious calculation but a lure, a bait. It mainly depends on the meters of coil in the ground , on the heat in the ground and on the demand in the house .A flat figure is therefore not trustable. The 5.6 are probably based on ideal , calculated conditions .Not on reality at the site.

The ground will get colder as longer the pump runs. This is usually not in the amortisation figures included . You will get little heat out of the soil once the pump had been running for a few month . And the lack of soil output has to be made up with peak demand electricity. " Peak demand " because you want it warm during the day .  Speak to someone who has one installed is my advice . Don't trust the sellers using ball park figures .

Making up for this fact by just installing more loops in the ground will create higher running costs ( electric pump !) all the time . The longer the pipe the more energy it costs to get a media through it . Due to increased  friction .

Ask the manufacturers about the points I made . And again : talk to someone with a similar property/heat demand and let them show the electricity bills for the last few years , at least two heating seasons are necessary to judge .


----------



## turtle77

Has anyone recent experience of Geothermal?
I'm looking for info from people who have had it installed in the last 12 months.
Is it worth it?


----------



## laserjet

hi,

also interested in anyone who has installed a geothermal system or the pellet system.  Does anyone know which is better, or more efficient.

Also I received quote for a geothermal system however they included quote for ventilation system at €6000.  My question is, is this ventilation system required or just an unnecessary expense.


----------



## turtle77

What was the total quote Laserjet?
How much of a grant would you get?


----------



## laserjet

hi turtle 77,

Dont have the quote in front of me but as far as I Remember the cheapest quote was €18000 thats after the grant which I Calculated at €4500.  The most expensive quote we got was €25000 that also was after grant deductions, but they were including €6000 for ventilation system.

The house is 2700sq ft but I dont think that actually makes any difference as I know somebody who built house 1600sq ft and I think they paid €24000 that was only a year so you can already see a drop in price from €24000 - €18000

Hope that helps

If anyone has any info on pellet system would be much appreciated


----------



## turtle77

It does help Laser; thanks.
We're applying for PP soon; our house will probbaly be about the same size as yours; a bit smaller maybe.
A friend of my Dad's is a plumber - he said pellets ahve gone up in price by 40% over the last year or so. That would be a concern of mine.


----------



## z102

All energy prices will go up, as long as one has to buy energy one has to pay for it. The everlasting boiler -the sun- runs for free, tap into it.
Pellet prices have gone up inded. 20-40% per year.And the forests are shrinking faster then our fossile fuel fields. And no way to discover "new" forests......
For about 5% of the building sum of a standard home one could turn the project into a "zero energy building". No further bills for energy, no matter what the world economy brings.
Make sure you're talking about the same thing as your sales men: a geothermal heating system is NOT to be compared with a ground source heat exchanger.  See here [broken link removed]


----------



## mickeyg

Heinblod, where can I get information on the "zero energy building" you mentioned?

Thnax


----------



## JKForde

hi, does anyone know of a source of up-to-date fuel \ energy prices in Ireland? searched the web but nothing yet...


----------



## z102

To Mickey: check the www, or have a look at these companys who are operating on the continent. Zero Energy Houses for around € 250.000, unfurnished: www.neotron-gmbh.de
and www.weberhaus.de
and www.exnorm.de
and many more. There are as well some manufacturers from English speaking countrys, again, check the web. 
The Weber company is very reputeable in Germany, Austria and Switzerland.
And then there is, here in Ireland, an Austrian company to which Dunkin Stewart is connected, but expect another €100.000 extra for the name and the nice design.Has someone the name of it?

Again: the key for a low energy demand is good insulation.
To JFK: try the SEI page, go to the house (or home?) link and click on fuel comparrison sheet. The SEI used to have better information about prices, better updated. Since two years it's rather sporadically maintained, going backwards frequently. In September they give the January prices and October they might give the prices from last jear september etc..
So it's just a rough guide.


----------



## pathfinder

Does anyone know someone who has a Geothermal heating system installed for a few years?  I'm looking into this heating system at the moment but I've heard some people say that the electricity bills are expensive to run the system ~€300 per month for the system.  Any comments on this?


----------



## Leo

Hi Pathfinder, welcome to AAM. You should find what you're looking for in this thread.
Leo


----------



## qwerty?

pathfinder said:


> Does anyone know someone who has a Geothermal heating system installed for a few years? I'm looking into this heating system at the moment but I've heard some people say that the electricity bills are expensive to run the system ~€300 per month for the system. Any comments on this?


 

€300 a month sounds just a wee bit excessive. I have it installed a year now, and our heating costs are averaging €90 a month, ranging from €31 for July, to €125 for November, not including Nightsaver


----------



## yop

300 if it done right, we average 15 euro per week on ours over the last 3 months.


----------



## Anne k

Has anyone used Energy Masters for installation of geo thermal system.
I am hoping to install a geo thermal system with underfloor heating downstairs and rads upstairs. interested in hearing from anyone who has recently installed same or has had dealings with energy master

thanks
anne


----------



## JoeHooker

Anne K

Installing underfloor heating downstairs and rads upstairs is going to cost you, temp for ufh is 20-22 degrees and rads run at about 55 degrees, geothermal can't produce heat at 55 degrees. Meaning you will require a emmersion to heat the remaining water to 55 degrees for your rads. 

Also interested in anyone who has installed a Heliotherm system it is the most efficent GHP and i am wondering if anyone has one and what they think of it?

Joe


----------



## yop

Joe,
I have a heliotherm GSHP and find it spot on, the house is always good and warm and constant DHW.


----------



## JoeHooker

Yop,

What are your electricty bills like for the heating and hot water, the house i've been quoted for is a 2200 sqft storey and a half, was very impressed with there proposal and when i rang the sales man he put to bed alot of my questions which were going around my head.

Joe


----------



## mickeyg

Can I ask what a heliotherm GSHP is and what sort of cost is involved?
Also, if running UFH with GSHP would the recommendation be to also have the UFH upstairs?

m


----------



## JoeHooker

Mickeyg 

Heliotherm is a heat pump, which is of the highest efficency on the market, most heat pumps have a efficency of 400% the heliotherm has an efficency of 560%

Joe


----------



## Anne k

who supplies heliotherm?

Also has anyone used energy masters from Kerry?

they indicate that there system can supply rads but will check iwth them where the extra heat is coming from to increase from the 20 -22 degrees


----------



## JoeHooker

Anne K

I'll PM you


----------



## ted

I remember Heinbloed's opinion on ground source/heat pump and I was in the middle of a new build at the time with UFH throughout and considering the heat pump option.

There was no grant available at the time and I figured €15000 was just too much when compared to the  €800 cost of an oil fired boiler at the time.

Now that I'm nearly out of the first winter I'm glad I did go for oil.

My home is approx. 280 m2 with many rooms having 3 external walls due to the design. On the coldest days I would need the boiler running for 4 - 5 hours out of 24 to bring the house to 19 degrees living areas and 17-18 degrees in bedrooms.

My boiler burns 3 litres/hour and in my setup it runs continuously for 3 hours before the return water reaches 60 degrees to cut out the boiler. On average I use 3 - 4 hours max and 2 -3 minimum and project using 10 to 12 litres a day for lets say 180 days. The total cost for oil then for the year is on target to be approx.  1100 euro.

Costs of 700 euro for a similar ground source option as I saw in other posts would only mean a 400 euro saving a year plus a little elec for hot water - say 400 in total. Even with the grant bringing down the cost to 6k or so how can this be a better option?

I agree with heinbloed's comments of yesteryear - plenty of insulation, south facing glazing etc. goes a long way to lowering energy use in the home. Yes oil may go up but then so will elec to power the heat pump as most elec in Ireland is generated from fossil fuels anyway and the heat pump is hardly a green option either as it's running on elec produced from fossil fuels.

Just my tuppence worth.


----------



## lfcfan

We are about to build a 2500sqft Dormer and my head is melted with all the different heating options. I've been convinced by every one of them at one point or another but right now I'm leaning towards an LPG Condensing System Boiler/Solar Panels for Water heating and underfloor heating and also a Whole House Heat Recovery Ventilation Unit (anyone have any experience with this?). Anyone got any thoughts on this combination? Thanks!


----------



## paintpotmen

Hi we're looking at GSHP and UFH for a new build.

We have been told we may need 3 phase electricity to power the heatpump?

The bungalow is large, 3,900 sqft, 900 of which is upstairs. We would like the GSHP to provide hotwater as well. 

Does anyone know the size/output we may need and who is the best supplier of these.

Many thanks in advance for your input.

Paintpotmen


----------



## badabing

I think g.s.h.p is a great option but only if you are very well insulated and use heat recovery ventilation and don't have open fireplaces, crap windows etc for heat to shoot out through. If you anticipate large oil bills, then anticipate large electricity bills for g.s.h.p also!

Combine this with passive heating and solar panels and a good conrol system for the whole lot and you're on to a winner.


----------



## qwerty?

paintpotmen said:


> Hi we're looking at GSHP and UFH for a new build.
> 
> We have been told we may need 3 phase electricity to power the heatpump?
> 
> The bungalow is large, 3,900 sqft, 900 of which is upstairs. We would like the GSHP to provide hotwater as well.
> 
> Does anyone know the size/output we may need and who is the best supplier of these.
> 
> Many thanks in advance for your input.
> 
> Paintpotmen


 
I'd imagine at that size you will need 3 phase. We have a 3500sq foot house, and are using a single phase pump to heat UFH and all our hot water needs, but 3 phase was discussed by our installer as been an option.


----------



## bats

just wondering if anyone out there could explain to me the difference between single phase and 3 phase electricity for the GSHP...... 

thanks guys


----------



## johnjoeville

I think there is a grant you can get for installing this system €5k (I Think)

Is the system on par with oil in actually heating your home. I am thinking of installing in my new home which will be built with Insulated Concrete formwork (Nudura) which they say makes a house warmer. Any opinions?


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## galwaytt

Question: I might put in a geo pump down the road, but I need to size the ESB connection appropriately, and the ESB have asked me what input load.  I don't know !  With a 316 sq m TF house, very highly insulated, I'm guessing at about a 4kW.

Help !


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## paulocon

johnjoeville,

I think the SEI Grant will cover heatpump...

Grant assistance is:

- Solar Thermal Space and or Hot Water Heating €300 per m2 (to max 12 m2)
- Heat Pump - Horizontal Ground Collector €4,300
- Heat Pump - Vertical Ground Collector €6,500
- Heat Pump - Water (well) to Water €4,300
- Heat Pump - Air Source €4,000

There is more on the SEI grant at 

Both the product and installer must be SEI approved..


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## stevo

Query -Air Source Heat Pumps 
I have heard mix reports about Air pumps
Are they better / worse than the Ground Source HP models ? 
Very few people have them installed as compared to the GSHP but I read they are more efficient than the GSHP's ? I am trying to decide which to install in a 2800sq ft new build


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## carrotcake

*Vertical Borehole for Geothermal*

Hello, I am going to use Geothermal in house I am building early New Year.  I am thinking of using the vertical (or borehole) system rather than horizontal (as I would like to keep land I have around house in future in case I may need to extend house). Does anyone have any advice on the borehole system and if it is better to go this way - I heard someone say at one of those house exhibitions, that it is more energy efficient using the borehole method.  Any advice would be really appreciated.


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## yop

*Re: Vertical Borehole for Geothermal*

you definately get a higher return (COP is about 7 or 8, it is 4 to 6 with the horizontal).
It is more costly to install but then you dont have your ground eating up by the piping.
If the option was available when I did ours then I would have gone borehole


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## carrotcake

Thanks Yop for your helpful advice - I know it is more expensive (the borehole method) but would rest more easily knowing I wasn't going to rupture a pipe under the lawn at some stage if I was doing rigourous gardening!!!  Thank you very much again.


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## yop

Rigourous gardening, not unless you are driving a spade down 3ft should be ok, you just limit yourself as regards hedging and features etc


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## carrotcake

Thanks Yop and yes, the geothermal installer did say to me that I couldn't sew trees in that area of the garden also as the roots would interfere with the piping. However, that said he wasn't very keen on me going the borehole way - perhaps it means extra work for him in getting the job of the borehole done.  I will be meeting him again anyways to go through quote so I will ask him more about his hesitancy re borehole method then. Again, thanks for your advice/opinion - much appreciated.


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## carrotcake

Could I ask advice regarding the correct/sufficient insulation with geothermal...the advice my geothermal installer has given is to go with 150ml fully filled (with platinum bead) cavity wall and use 100ml of kingspan insulation under floors (that is 75ml of my own insulation and 25ml of geothermal installer insulation). Is this sufficient insulation or should I go a bit higher? Also, when he says 'under floors', does he mean under the upstairs floors also or is there less insulation needed in those floors? He was against the partial fill cavity wall completely unless one is totally sure of their blocklayer. Thank you.


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## yop

100ml of insulation on the floors is spot on, never mind his insulation, the pipes are generally clipped onto the insulation or mats left on top of the insulation  the pipes laid into these.

I am confused as what u mean by the upstairs floors.


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## carrotcake

Thanks Yop. What I mean by upstairs floors are the floors on the 2nd storey of house i.e. floors of bedroooms etc. Also wondering do you think 150ml cavity fully filled with platinum bead is sufficient for walls of house. Thank u.


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## yop

For external walls to b honest I am not qualified on this as regards cavity walls, we have a timber frame which has 150mm of rockwool on the external walls and that works for us. sorry


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## carrotcake

Thanks Yop for that anyways.


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## carrotcake

Thanks very much for that John - both myself and my sister are building early in New Year and we are just about at signing contract stage with Climate Control - we also had heard good reports so really must seriously consider your comment now.  Thanks for tip off.  Customer service is so so important when one is paying top money for a product. Must relook over all the other companies again that I got quotes off. Not sure if it is allright to mention companies on this site but I am just thinking now of rechecking out Nutherm - sales guy there was very helpful at initial stages but decided on CControl as more local to us and smaller heat pump. Will look into it straight away!


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## carrotcake

Ouch Stamper - just sent you a private message.


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## Eve1

have to say that we went with climate control and found them really professional. We never had any problems and they called out a few times to look at our fill for the site, they even talked to our plumber and carpenter etc. They were also the crowd I found who new the most about their product, other people were give me really vague responses.


Eve


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## yop

I have to say I am too suprised, I had an issue with pressure in the loop on Wednesday and I rang Brian with no issues. 
But that does not mean you are not having an issue lad, keep on the blower to them.


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## carrotcake

Thanks Yop and Eve for your replies - I also had two helpful private messages from happy users of CControl too so I am back on track again now after the shock of reading ouch-stamper's message yesterday - going to meet another client of CC this evening anyways just to be doubly sure!!
Thanks again guys


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## mfenton

Hi guys,

I'm thinking of heat pump for a new house build. I'm considering the options for the collector and one particular supplier is pushing a bored well water to water heat pump over the horizontal collector. Apparently, as the temperature of the well water would lend itself to a greater COP (12C well water - 6.5 COP). Two other heat supplier companies are set against this system - they think that it is too much trouble installing, requires far more maintenance, higher costs for drilling etc (although my thinking is that I'll be boring a well anyway) and there are risks of water contamination. The reasons why I'd opt for the bored well heat pump is that I would expect this costs to be lower given that there would be no site excavation as there would be for the horizontal collectors. 

What do ye think? I went back to the first supplier and he claims that these companies are simply just trying to sell more pipe etc. This supplier is heating his 6100 sq ft house with one bored well heat pump. I did visit another installation and he was quite happy with the system - installed 2005.

This supplier also claims that aluminium rads (sized for 40C) would keep the electricity running costs lower that that for under floor whereas the other companies say the under floor is better. In any case I will at least go for under floor in part of the house as I have reduced space for rads.

Any thoughts are appreciated.

Cheers,
Martin


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## yop

Martin

Who is the supplier with the 6100 sq foot house, even initials of company, if it is who I think it is then the words hole, talkin, through come to mind. 

All I would say on the two points are:

Borehole - more expensive to install, not sure how much exactly, may 1.5k euro more. Higher COP, so more efficent. No large plot of area taken up with piping. If you are getting bored for water then you have the machine there, cost saving already.

UFH - would not touch rads with the ufh to be honest, even 40c, standard and well installed UFH will be maxing out at that and should run at 35C. We were advised to install tighter loops, wider coverage and therefore lower running temp, currently is 28C.

Best of luck with it


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## mudhut

Hello All ,, The info here is great !! but like a lot of you my head is swimming regards it all ,  does anybody know of any UFH/Geo supplier/contrators in the Cavan/longford/monaghan area,  I have being in contact with  a sligo based firm for the last couple of months who have being very informative and never pushy as regards closing the deal.   Having said that you should always get more than one opinion

Appreciate any info

MudHUt


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## Holly64

Anne k said:


> who supplies heliotherm?
> 
> Also has anyone used energy masters from Kerry?
> 
> they indicate that there system can supply rads but will check iwth them where the extra heat is coming from to increase from the 20 -22 degrees


 
Hi Anne, did you go with Energy Master from Kerry... if so how did you get on with them and how is your system working now.  We are planning on using geothermal and ufh and are looking for a supplier... also looking at Pure Energy... would welcome comments on both suppliers.  Thanks


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## napper

Hi, am just beginning to check geotherm, deep bore, as I cannot use garden loops. Seen a blog by 'Fisherman' yesterday where he says that Thermia.com Sweden can order from their factory in Poland, with hugh savings on costs. With price of fuel as is today, it can only make sense.  Any advice gratefully received!
Napper


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## kilros

Hi,

Maybe I am alone, but I did not have a very satisfactory experience with Climate Control. They had a huge delay on getting the heat pump delivered to my house. When it did arrive it was faulty and the owner of the company tried a different "solution" every day. The solutions varied from cleaning the filters, to adding more gas, to taking out gas, to changing the limits on the heat pump, and so on.

In the long run (after about 6 weeks) they replaced the heat pump for a supposedly more efficient model. Guess what? It was faulty, or so they say. They then told me they were going to replace a couple of boards in it but that didn't help.

After the jigs and the reels it now seems to be working, but I am not fully convinced as it seems to be running none stop. I also went for those Fermacells that they sell for an attic conversion and as far as I can see they don't give out any heat.

That's just my experience.


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## sas

kilros said:


> I also went for those Fermacells that they sell for an attic conversion and as far as I can see they don't give out any heat.


 
Isn't Fermacell a plasterboard variant?

[broken link removed]


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## sas

sas said:


> Isn't Fermacell a plasterboard variant?
> 
> [broken link removed]


 
Sorry, only saw this now



Sorry to hear about your problems. That system must have set you back a bundle!


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## bluemac

Just got my geothermal heating, (heat pump and ground collector bed) up and working 2 months ago http://www.heatsource.ie  its a Heliotherm Geothermal Heat Pumps,

thought id better put my bid in on this website as I used it a lot over the last 2 years to help me choose which one to go with.

So far the system works great, heatsource are very nice and easy to deal with, not had any electric bills yet so will let you know how it goes (although before it was working we used electric heaters which cost €150 a month to heat 2 rooms!!) , Very impressed with the all over room temp form the system I believe it is running the heating at about 29 degree, it has more pipes to allow it to do this and should mean lower running costs. Currently running it in My office 800sqft 50 meters from the main house we used insulated pipes to get the temp up here and it virtually loses no heat at all in the run there and back!. The system will eventually run the main house as well about 4000 sqft.

find a level ground area for the collector bed mine dropped by 2 meters over a 35x14 meter distance, usually you only need to dig down 1 meter but with mine it ment digging down 3 meters at one end, Got quite expensive to do this and then the additional for sand at the bottom of the bed, and a 3 meter deep manhole to put in caught me out. I am hoping that by having it deeper at one end will help the system collect heat in the winter and the shallow end should help in the warmer days!.. may be may be not.

Over all it costs a lot of money when I costsed it up there were a lot of systems and a lot of different prices rangeing from 15k - 36k , Heliotherm seems to be one of the best systems, and having heard other peoples horror stories who have used cheaper systems I glad I went with the Heliotherm system. It does use twice the amount of under floor heating pipes and I think more collector pipes so you can see why its more expensive. I hope to make that money back over the next 15-20 years.

The system uses a big tank of hot water which it heats to about 49 degree then fresh water is pump into a heat exchange which directley heats the water to 49 degree without actually touching the water in the tank (which stops and legonaires problems) (not tried this yet though as its for the main house) No back up system is needed ie no extra emersion etc to heat the water again which a lot of other systems needed.

I am hoping it only costs me €1000 a year to run, but I dont really have a clue yet what it will be. If it is around that level it will be well worth it for heating 2 buildings as relatives have oil boilers in there 3800 sqft houses and cost arround €3000 a year to run.

hope this helps.


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## CharlieR

What about the air source, same system but witout the cost of the underground pipework?


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## inchbyinch

the problem with air source is that the temperature in the air varies quite an amount more than that of the soil and will give problems on colder days!!


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## CharlieR

But are they not vastly cheaper to buy and install?


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## stuartrivchu

Yes. A GSHP can be a combination heating/cooling  and hot water heating system,  GSHPs can save you up to 50% on your water-heating bill by  preheating tank water.Most of a GSHP installation is underground.GSHPs are very quiet, providing a pleasant  environment inside & outside of the home. GSHPs have no noisy fan  units to disturb outdoor activities, on or near the house .At* European Ground Source Heat Pumps Association* website you can get all the detail in respect to Gshp installation and designs.


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