# No income, no savings, but refused welfare



## Protocol (20 Mar 2014)

Scenario:

Person worked for 10 years approx, laid off in early 2011
Received JSB for 9-12 months
Went back to college - various courses
(1) short FAS course
(2) Springboard course (for unemployed) in UCD
(3) now in UCD doing a Diploma/Masters, started in Sep 2012

Couldn't get JSA as in college - fair enough

Applied for student grant and also BTEA - refused as had 200k in savings from redundancy / SSIA / general savings

Buys a house in 2014, all savings used up

Now has no income and very little cash

College course due to finish in May 2014

Applied to the CWO for anything, e.g. SWA - refused


*I'm just curious does anybody have any advice?
*
When college course is over, they can apply for JSA, okay.

But for 3-4 months, they will be surviving off tiny amount of cash....

I would have thought that SWA would be paid, but it was refused.


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## niceoneted (20 Mar 2014)

Why not rent a room or two if there is some free and gain income that way.


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## emeralds (20 Mar 2014)

So the person concerned spent €200,000 buying a property? Can it be sold again?


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## DrMoriarty (20 Mar 2014)

niceoneted said:


> Why not rent a room or two if there is some free and gain income that way.


Tax free, for the first €10,000 per tax year. Surely a fellow postgrad from UCD would be easy enough to find?


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## 44brendan (20 Mar 2014)

> Buys a house in 2014, all savings used up


Surely you can't see this decision as being a reasonable one! While I'm not into finger pointing in general I can't understand the logic behind this decision.


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## emeralds (20 Mar 2014)

44brendan said:


> Surely you can't see this decision as being a reasonable one! While I'm not into finger pointing in general I can't understand the logic behind this decision.



You are not alone there. I am guessing the person concerned assumed that there would be no issue getting a SW payment afterwards, once the savings were gone.


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## Protocol (20 Mar 2014)

To reply:

Person has been looking for a house for several years, on and off, at a stage where wanted to buy.

Person did not expect to receive welfare once cash turned into house.

*I did *- I expected that they would qualify for something, anything, maybe SWA..............

Yes, has talked to friends, etc. about possible lodgers, that will very likely happen.

I just (naively) presumed that if:

you have no income and no cash savings
had paid tax/PRSI for 10 years
was making a genuine effort to re-train

then you might qualify for some sort of welfare. But clearly not.

Thanks for all the advice.


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## emeralds (20 Mar 2014)

The person did receive 9 months JSB.


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## SarahMc (20 Mar 2014)

He seems to have put very little planning or thought into this. You cant get a grant or BTEA for a Masters.

Has he looked for a part time job, that's how most post grad students support themselves.


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## Protocol (20 Mar 2014)

It's a postgrad that is a H Dip/ Masters, i.e. there are two exit routes with two awards, at different levels.

The other students applied for BTE and put it down as a Higher Diploma, so they got the BTEA.

http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/353_Back-to-Education-Allowance.aspx


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## Protocol (20 Mar 2014)

He didn't get BTEA because of this requirement:

Qualifying period

For second level courses you must have been getting a qualifying social welfare payment (see above) for at least 3 months (78 days of unemployment*). You must be getting the qualifying paymentimmediately before you start the course.
For third level courses you must have been getting a qualifying social welfare payment (see above) for 9 months (234 days of unemployment*). You must be getting the qualifying payment immediately before you start the course.


His JSB has ran out a good while before the UCD course started in Sep 2012.


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## SarahMc (20 Mar 2014)

Protocol said:


> It's a postgrad that is a H Dip/ Masters, i.e. there are two exit routes with two awards, at different levels.
> 
> The other students applied for BTE and put it down as a Higher Diploma, so they got the BTEA.


 they should only have been eligible for it for the HDip element. Im shocked the college complied with this tbh.

Other than a part time job, which he may not want to get so near his finals, he could try the Student Assistance fund in the college.


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## PaddyBloggit (20 Mar 2014)

Tell him to sell the house.


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## gipimann (20 Mar 2014)

Full-time students are one of the categories of persons excluded from claiming SWA, regardless of their circumstances.


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## Protocol (20 Mar 2014)

PaddyBloggit said:


> Tell him to sell the house.




He only bought it a month ago!!!


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## Protocol (20 Mar 2014)

gipimann said:


> Full-time students are one of the categories of persons excluded from claiming SWA, regardless of their circumstances.



Yes, in the end I saw that.


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## Protocol (20 Mar 2014)

It's just a bit depressing.

We know plenty of long-term unemployed who seem to make no effort to find work.

They do not seem to be challenged by the DSP, even though the troika insist that the DSP address this issue.

They also get rent supplement.

And yet a "more deserving" person gets nothing (okay, 9-12 months JSB).

Life is unfair.


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## SarahMc (21 Mar 2014)

AND a FAS course, and a Springboard course, and his fees, and most likely JSA when he finishes his course, as he has conveniently exhausted his means.

 Really, the sense of entitlement, and the double standards, how on earth is this person 'more deserving', sounds workshy to me?


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## emeralds (21 Mar 2014)

Protocol said:


> It's just a bit depressing.
> 
> We know plenty of long-term unemployed who seem to make no effort to find work.
> 
> ...



Why is he more deserving? He spent €200,000 on a house and exhausted all his own savings....did he not check all this out before he did that?


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## Bronte (21 Mar 2014)

Protocol said:


> It's just a bit depressing.
> 
> We know plenty of long-term unemployed who seem to make no effort to find work.
> 
> ...


 
Well woe is me, you think they are more deserving than those the long term unemployed.  All this person has to do is survive for 3 to 4 months.  And there are many options for this person, rent a room, they can rent all the rooms in the house out for the next 4 months and get in 10K, owner to sleep on the sofa, pack the house with students. Get a job in McD, borrow enough for 4 months, based on an asset of 200K.  Leave the house completely and rent it out and go sleep on a friends or relatives sofa etc.


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## Protocol (21 Mar 2014)

SarahMc said:


> AND a FAS course, and a Springboard course, and his fees, and most likely JSA when he finishes his course, as he has conveniently exhausted his means.
> 
> Really, the sense of entitlement, and the double standards, how on earth is this person 'more deserving', sounds workshy to me?



Fair enough, the Springboard course had no fees, I think.

There are fees for the current course.

The person does not have a sense of entitlement.

Yes, fair enough, in a few months, they will qualify, I hope, for JSA.

The person is seeking work, and has done some interviews.

But when you see friends in the pub every week, and on the golf course, and on long-term JSA, it would lead you to question the welfare system. They don't look for work.

*Anyway, we'll just have to get on with it.*


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## Protocol (21 Mar 2014)

Bronte said:


> Well woe is me, you think they are more deserving than those the long term unemployed.  All this person has to do is survive for 3 to 4 months.  And there are many options for this person, rent a room, they can rent all the rooms in the house out for the next 4 months and get in 10K, owner to sleep on the sofa, pack the house with students. Get a job in McD, borrow enough for 4 months, based on an asset of 200K.  Leave the house completely and rent it out and go sleep on a friends or relatives sofa etc.



Yes, I specifically do think that long-term unemployed who make no effort to re-train or look for work are less deserving.


Yes, you are correct, it's just a few months, and yes, they can/will get a lodger, and hopefully JSA at the end, or else a job.


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## Bronte (21 Mar 2014)

Protocol said:


> But when you see friends in the pub every week, and on the golf course, and on long-term JSA, it would lead you to question the welfare system. They don't look for work.


 
I imagine that playing golf is good for someone who is long term unemployed.  And I also imagine that the cost is relatively low compared to any other activity.  

When you say in the pub every week, what value in money terms do you think it costs all these people?


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