# The Cloyne Report & the Vatican.



## horusd

I've read part of the Cloyne report and listened to some of the reporting on it.  Full text [broken link removed] It's shocking to think that, despite all the history of dreadful abuse in Ireland, this continues. I suspect that the Vatican's lack of support (to say the least) lies at the heart of the failure to deal with this terrible problem. I suspect they still believe themselves above civil & national laws.  Is it time to review our relationship with the Vatican State, and not just the local church and what, if anything, needs to happen?


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## Sunny

horusd said:


> I've read part of the Cloyne report and listened to some of the reporting on it. Full text [broken link removed] It's shocking to think that, despite all the history of dreadful abuse in Ireland, this continues. I suspect that the Vatican's lack of support (to say the least) lies at the heart of the failure to deal with this terrible problem. I suspect they still believe themselves above civil & national laws. Is it time to review our relationship with the Vatican State, and not just the local church and what, if anything, needs to happen?


 
What shocked me is the fact that the Church is still to this day not doing all it can. Sean Brady defended Magee right up to a couple of years ago. Now he is saying, he didn't defend him very strongly! Archbishop Martin criticises Rome and fellow Bishops and is left isolated. It's unreal.


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## bullbars

The way I've often thought of this whole issue is, if it was discovered that staff from McDonalds/Intel/Dell etc. (hypothetically of course) were involved in such a scandal, the head(s) of the company would be summoned straight away, if not already on the way, to sort it out. 



Sunny said:


> What shocked me is the fact that the Church is still to this day not doing all it can.  Archbishop Martin criticises Rome and fellow Bishops and is left isolated. It's unreal.


 
+1

The cover up after cover up and the hiding behind Cannon law, has dragged this out too long. Even from the churches side would it not be better just to come clean on everything, call it "annus horribilis" and start to rebuild the relationship with the people (if they want to be invoved in the church obviously)

The government needs to deal with this now, there is too much talk of how Ruari Q. might get the chruch to pay it's share of the victims payments and how eamon Gilmore might summon the Papal Nuncio. Name a date, tell them to get here, bring answers and a cheque book.


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## Shawady

What I can't understand is why the whole issue of cannon law is even raised. Surely, the law of the land is all that matters. Child abuse is a crime and if an individual is preventing the investigation of a crime, they should be dealt with like anyone else, even if they are a member of the church.


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## Marion

I heard Minister Frances Fitzgerald say that with regard to the legislation there is no conflict. The law of the land will prevail.

The *only *exception will be if the victim explicitly states that they does not want it reported.

Marion


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## bullbars

Shawady said:


> What I can't understand is why the whole issue of cannon law is even raised. Surely, the law of the land is all that matters. Child abuse is a crime and if an individual is preventing the investigation of a crime, they should be dealt with like anyone else, even if they are a member of the church.


 
I simply took it as another diversion tactic. I'm not too sure what defense it offered, if any. I could be wrong but it seemed another attempt to confuse/delay/hide the real issues and truths.


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## Shawady

Marion said:


> I heard Minister Frances Fitzgerald say that with regard to the legislation there is no conflict. The law of the land will prevail.


 
Marion, just seen it mentioned on rte.ie.
The way it is written is that priests will have to report child abuse i.e. in the future.
I'm wondering about the cases in the report where cases were not reported.


http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0714/cloyne.html


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## DrMoriarty

The Catholic Church's position has always been that canon law takes precedence over any civil or criminal law, anywhere, at all times. Rather like Shariah. Its clergy take vows to obey orders unquestioningly and face excommunication and personal ruin if they don't. Irish bishops are neither braver nor more stupid than any others.

The only surprise in all of this is the number of people who seem to expect that the Church will somehow change its spots in this regard. Every possible diversion and delaying tactic in the book will be used in order to buy time for the Vatican further to protect itself from legal redress (above all, financial liability) in jurisdictions less supine than that of the Irish state. Since the abuse scandals began to emerge in the US, for example, the catholic Church there has been employing some of the best legal minds in the world to ensure that Church assets are put beyond the reach of any state judiciary. It is one of the wealthiest and most unaccountable private organisations in the world.


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## horusd

What strikes me is that the RC Church is both a state and a Church, and can uniquely use it's "statehood" to throw a firewall around itself. I don't doubt that the abuse problems primarily relate to the Irish clergy's handling of it, but the Vatican is also a huge part of the problem. 

When Gilmore meets the Nuncio (was this the guy who said he couldn't help in  the enquiry?) I would like to hear that he put this priest/diplomat in his place, and leaves it in no doubt that the actions of the Vatican have been part of the problem.


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## Purple

The Vatican should be viewed as a hostile state, guilty of sedition in that it acts to undermine the sovereignty of the Irish state from within. 
Diplomatic relations should be broken off, our ambassador should be recalled and the Papal Nuncio should be expelled.

This has been my view for a number of years but I am not a Catholic. My father is a catholic and a strongly committed one; he agrees with me.


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## Teatime

Sunny said:


> What shocked me is the fact that the Church is still to this day not doing all it can. Sean Brady defended Magee right up to a couple of years ago. Now he is saying, he didn't defend him very strongly! Archbishop Martin criticises Rome and fellow Bishops and is left isolated. It's unreal.



Sean Brady should be in prison. He is a disgrace.


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## horusd

A couple of points apropos to this.  I hear the Nuncio saying he was taking the report and passing it onto Rome. Does the Nuncio seriously expect us to believe the Vatican haven't got one already online and already begun considering a defence of some kind?  Do these people take us for total fools? 

I also heard Monsignor O'Callaghan (News @ One) mouth a strange hybrid between a  defence of himself  and a strange apology to everyone affected. It reminded me of that "mental reservation" business with the old Cardinal O'Connell. The man hasn't a clue of the harm his actions have entailed imo. Another priest on the same program said that wether or not he broke the law, he wouldn't be revealing a sexual abuse confession made to him in the future. In other words, the Church's confessional rules trumps the law. So much for change in the church so. 

I agree with Purple, we should treat the official church & the Vatican as hostile. Let them have a chance to respond to the report, and then after the mealy-mouthed apologies and vague promises they don't intend to keep, send their ambassador home, and withdraw ours. It's time for shock tactics . Ireland kicking out the Papal Nuncio might just get some action.


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## oldnick

Most RC priests were not child abusers. But many were.
To be clear - we are talking about raping little boys and girls.
Most RC priests knew or suspected that this was going on. And did nothing.
In my mind this makes most RC priests at best, moral cowards, at worst,scum. 
And all contact with them should be avoided. 

The "good" ones ,if they had any moral courage, should quit the official RCF church -or at the very least openly and loudly protest the behaviour of their superiors-from bishop to Pope.

Does this sound extreme ?  As extreme as what those priests did?


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## Betsy Og

While I've no sympathy for the insitution of the church, I have known various priests in my lifetime and, lucky enough, all were good honest decent people. I've never heard their name in relation to any allegation or that they knew and did nothing.

So for those people I do have sympathy. I know they're all feeling very low today, hated for their vocation, whether innocent or guilty. They do feel very let down both by the individuals and the response.

As regards the church, they've messed it up too many times. The main thing now is to limit their access to children, stop the opportunity. Would be crazy for any parent to allow a situation where their child can be alone & under the control of any adult (beyond immediate family, and even then....), so I think general vigilence should stamp it out.

I think the rigours of the law should be applied to those who covered up - jail time would be a good signal, and the assets of the church should be available to compensate - why should the taxpayer pay for it? While I dont have great personal faith, if I did I think I'd be taking a direct line to God/This post will be deleted if not edited immediately, how can you put any credence in an institution that acts like that ... so depressing.

Overall I just hope the victims can be given the assistance they need to cope & that this horrible farce ends here.


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## Amygdala

Time for another reformation me thinks! Thats if there are any decent priests within that organisation.


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## DrMoriarty

Betsy Og said:


> ...the assets of the church should be available to compensate - why should the taxpayer pay for it?


Because of the 2002 indemnity deal brokered by Michael Woods on his last day in office. Watch this space, and see absolutely nothing happen.


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## RMCF

The thing that is starting to bug me about all this (and its only the tip of the iceberg) is the fact that the term "clerical child sex abuse" is now used so much that for some its starting to just become a phrase and its real meaning is being lost.

Everytime I hear a news report on it my skin crawls, that grown men could be so evil, so sick to do that to small, defenceless children, and have other men think it is fine to cover it up and say nothing. And these are meant to be 'good men' at that.

I cannot really think of a crime that is more hideous or heinous. It makes me sick. These people have been jailed then, but if its all to be retrospective, then hunt them like Nazi's. Hunt them, all the many hundreds or thousands and put them away until they die.

The CC has ruined itself, and its strangehold on Ireland is a generation away from dying. I for one am glad, as they caused all this themselves.


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## Betsy Og

Maybe its time for a "fitness to practice" assessment for all religions in Ireland. If you dont meet the grade (including child protection, transparency of funding etc) then remove the charitable status of all affiliates (hits fundraising significantly)  - you cant ban a religion as such but you cant take away any favourable status afforded by the State.

Not sure what else you can do - I'm a believer in absolute separation of church and state - how practical that is in Ireland re eduacation and health I'm not sure, but no matter how messy I think its time to finish the job since I would guess that the majority of the nation would have no objection to removing religious influence from education and health.

Religion is a personal matter that shouldnt come into other aspects of life - if you want to "live your faith" then fair enough but I think the CC has had its day as regards wider influence in Ireland.


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## Lex Foutish

RMCF said:


> The thing that is starting to bug me about all this (and its only the tip of the iceberg) is the fact that the term "clerical child sex abuse" is now used so much that for some its starting to just become a phrase and its real meaning is being lost.
> 
> Everytime I hear a news report on it my skin crawls, that grown men could be so evil, so sick to do that to small, defenceless children, and have other men think it is fine to cover it up and say nothing. And these are meant to be 'good men' at that.
> 
> I cannot really think of a crime that is more hideous or heinous. It makes me sick. These people have been jailed then, but if its all to be retrospective, then hunt them like Nazi's. Hunt them, all the many hundreds or thousands and put them away until they die.
> 
> *The CC has ruined itself, and its strangehold on Ireland is a generation away from dying. I for one am glad, as they caused all this themselves*.


 
I have to say, RMCF, that I'm SO ANGRY with all that has come from the report and I agree with all you say in your post. The bit I've highlighted in bold above is so true. 

Sure, the CC did a lot of good in this country over the years but the way they controlled the people and the politicians, the way that they acted as mind police and instilled feelings of guilt in their flock to aid that control has left me with a feeling of almost complete delight that they have been exposed for what they are and have been mortally wounded, as an organisation, in this country.

I cannot believe that Magee and O'Callaghan couldn't be bothered to turn up to yesterday's press conference! And, to me, O'Callaghan sounded totally insincere on the news with Paschal Sheehy with his expression of "regret." 

Does anyone here think that the Government would have the liathróidí to expel the Papal Nuncio if Rome doesn't come back with a satisfactory response to what Eamonn Gilmore said today?


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## Sunny

To be fair to Kenny and Gilmore, they are taking a much tougher line with the Vatican than I expected. Usually politicians will just avoid strong language but listening to the two of them yesterday, there is little doubt as to how annoyed the government is. I agree it is time to cut all diplomatic ties with the Vatican. They have themselves to be as morally corrupt as some of the so called rogue states.


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## horusd

Sunny said:


> To be fair to Kenny and Gilmore, they are taking a much tougher line with the Vatican than I expected. Usually politicians will just avoid strong language but listening to the two of them yesterday, there is little doubt as to how annoyed the government is. I agree it is time to cut all diplomatic ties with the Vatican. They have themselves to be as morally corrupt as some of the so called rogue states.


 
Agreed. The language out of gov't is forthright & robust, and it should be followed up by fairly serious action. I'm not Unionist, but strangely find myself agreeing with their age-old complaint of Rome-rule. 

The shock to Irish society by this awful evil is really unprecedented. Who would ever have thought we'd see the day that a senior politician like Charlie Flanagan would call for the expulsion of the Nuncio?

The impact of abuse is horrendous. Reading the statements of the alleged victims in the Cloyne report is heart-breaking. It has destroyed and warped their lives. We also know from other reports that suicide wasn't uncommon. In the rush to protect the church from "scandal" some priests and bishops have left these people out to dry and in so-doing, abused them again.

Imo the church's warped attitude to human sexuality is a huge part of the problem. It's no wonder that this has become it's achilles heel. There has been a misinformed view that homosexuality is directly linked to abuse, but this is wrong. Firstly not all the abused are boys, and  homosexuality & child abuse are very different. Finding children attractive is a disorder of human sexuality. But surely this isn't a surprise in the church given it's horror  at almost any sexual expression. What isn't acknowledged and accepted by the church is driven into the dark, and this is where it becomes the warped thing that we see in child sexual abuse, at least in my view.


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## Shawady

Sunny said:


> To be fair to Kenny and Gilmore, they are taking a much tougher line with the Vatican than I expected.


 
Yeah, Charlie Flanagan TD has called for the explusion of the papal nuncio and according to the paper this morning, the pope's visit to Ireland next year is in doubt. Changing times.


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## Purple

Shawady said:


> Yeah, Charlie Flanagan TD has called for the explusion of the papal nuncio and according to the paper this morning, the pope's visit to Ireland next year is in doubt. Changing times.



Yes, he must have been reading my posts


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## Sunny

Purple said:


> Yes, he must have been reading my posts


 
Either that or you are actually Charlie Flanagan!


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## horusd

Sunny said:


> Either that or you are actually Charlie Flanagan!


 
Blue(shirt) is very close to Purple


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## Complainer

Shawady said:


> Yeah, Charlie Flanagan TD has called for the explusion of the papal nuncio and according to the paper this morning, the pope's visit to Ireland next year is in doubt. Changing times.


Oliver J must be spinning at a fast rate.


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## Sunny

Complainer said:


> Oliver J must be spinning at a fast rate.


 


Marion said:


> And to add to the conspiracy ... Charlie Flanagan's father Oliver J was also a catholic - of 'the no sex in Ireland until TV' person.
> 
> 
> Marion


 
I didn't realise that. Nice man....


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## RMCF

I was chatting to the OH about this sick situation recently.

I do appreciate that the CC has done some good by the way, but I told her that if I had the balls I would not get my children baptised into the CC. I could live with that. 

I would much prefer them to be raised as good people rather than be attached to this corrupt and damaged organisation. But the problem was highlighted by her response, "but we couldn't get them into local schools if you did".

Would that be true? Unfortunately there are still all powerful in this country, but legally could my children be barred from the local school? Could it be challenged if they did?


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## Shawady

RMCF said:


> Unfortunately there are still all powerful in this country,


 
What's the offical status of the CC in the country.
Are they mentioned in the constitution as the offical religion or anything like that?


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## Purple

horusd said:


> Blue(shirt) is very close to Purple




I never voted for them 'till the last election.


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## Betsy Og

Shawady said:


> Are they mentioned in the constitution as the offical religion or anything like that?


 
They used to have a "privaleged position" or some such, but it has been long since removed (possibly due to EEC entry - but I could be way off).

See below my comments re separation of church & state re education and health.


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## Purple

Following on from the “we need a reformation” comment above does anyone know who holds legal ownership of the Catholic Church’s property in Ireland? I know that the religious orders own their own land etc but is diocesan land owned by a legal entity called the Dioceses of “X” or is it owned by the individual Bishop (hardly practical) or is it owned by the Vatican.

If it is owned by the Vatican then the questions are what’s the international law around seizing  the assets of a foreign state, is it covered by international law and is the Vatican a full member of the UN?


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## Shawady

I thought I read before that the Vatican was not a member of the UN.
When you think about it, what is the Vatican?
It's an independent state and a religous state together?
The head of state (pope) is elected by members of the church?
I wonder what the property and art in the vatican would be worth.


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## Staples

I haven't gone to Mass for years for reasons of laziness.

From now on, I'll not go on for reasons of principle.

I feel it's the least I can do.


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## Firefly

A big problem I have with the Catholic Church regards the lack of action from the "good" priests when all of this abuse became public knowledge. If they had any conviction they would have formed a group and marched to Rome demanding that all the bishops be removed and radical reform be brought it. But instead they kept their heads down and continued to tell us how to live our lives from the pulpit.  
I still go to church (though not as often), but I make it my business to not put anything in the collection box. If everyone did this for a few weeks it would be the biggest message to get back to Rome.


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## Complainer

RMCF said:


> I was chatting to the OH about this sick situation recently.
> 
> I do appreciate that the CC has done some good by the way, but I told her that if I had the balls I would not get my children baptised into the CC. I could live with that.
> 
> I would much prefer them to be raised as good people rather than be attached to this corrupt and damaged organisation. But the problem was highlighted by her response, "but we couldn't get them into local schools if you did".
> 
> Would that be true? Unfortunately there are still all powerful in this country, but legally could my children be barred from the local school? Could it be challenged if they did?


Your children could certainly be deprioritised. Parish schools will normally give priority to children of the religion in quesition. If the school is undersubscribed, there is no issue. If the school is oversubscribed, you'll be at the back of the list.

Outrageous for a state-funded service, but there you go.


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## Purple

Complainer said:


> Your children could certainly be deprioritised. Parish schools will normally give priority to children of the religion in quesition. If the school is undersubscribed, there is no issue. If the school is oversubscribed, you'll be at the back of the list.
> 
> Outrageous for a state-funded service, but there you go.



big +1 to that.


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## RMCF

Complainer said:


> Your children could certainly be deprioritised. Parish schools will normally give priority to children of the religion in quesition. If the school is undersubscribed, there is no issue. If the school is oversubscribed, you'll be at the back of the list.
> 
> Outrageous for a state-funded service, but there you go.



Would their decision stand up to a legal challenge, do you think?


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## Purple

RMCF said:


> Would their decision stand up to a legal challenge, do you think?



Yes, it would.


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## oldnick

*To the Roman catholics amongst you....*

-why don't you join the Reformation now and become a Protestant like me ? Although no soup is provided there's always a nice social atmosphere after every service -tea and coffee.
No more expensive first communion crap, no prohibition of contraception, no more idol worshipping and rosary fiddling or whatever you guys do in church, no  visions or miracles, No more Papal infallibility, and no more having to believe that at holy Communion you are literally eating the flesh of Christ   -_and above all no dodgy priests_. Ours get married for goodness sake !

If you are still into lots of ceremony and fancy dressed priests - join the C of I . You may be put off by the sight of women clergy but much of ceremony is similar to yours and the priests wear pretty coloured outfits.

If you don't want the fancy paraphanelia of RC and even C of I -then become a Methodist .Much more basic - and none of the hierachy that C of I, like R.C., has. Just simple ministers.

Belief in God is somewhat optional for C of I attendees. i've been an athiest all my life but always found Cof I a nice place to socialise. I regard myself as a Protestant athiest with no qualms until such time as the Humanists have lots of social centres and singing. Nice sing-songs as well. 

 Methodists a bit more dour- push the God thing a bit more and dont seem to have as many hymns during the services.

Even more strict and full of the God are Baptists and Presbyterians -but if you feel like a weekly equivalent of Croac Patrick then they'll do you fine. Much more talk about sin and redemption. (Don't bother with Congregationalists -too few churches to bother about).

There such a wide choice of Proddy churches -including tiny ones like Quakers (wonderful sect -full of really nice goody-goody people) that i wonder why anyone  still calls themselves Roman catholic.

..and we haven't got on to the other Christian denominations - Greek Orthodox for example. Nice little church at Arbor Hill. lovely liturgy that goes on for ever  but no audience particpation. And no decent seats.

P.S. Let's not forget Sikhs, Hindus, Moslems,Buddists and Jews.

So, WHY, if you still believe in God -or not - do any of you call yoursleves Roman catholics.?
There a whole wide world out there of alternative mumbo-jumbo and from what I know in my years of studying  religion there's far less child buggery amongst the clergy of those religions than there is in the Holy Roman Catholic Faith.


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## Ceist Beag

Simple oldnick - see the post from RMCF re school entry for children. I would imagine this is the only reason for remaining in the church for an awful lot of people.


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## Firefly

oldnick said:


> *To the Roman catholics amongst you....*
> 
> -why don't you join the Reformation now and become a Protestant like me ? Although no soup is provided there's always a nice social atmosphere after every service -tea and coffee.
> No more expensive first communion crap, no prohibition of contraception, no more idol worshipping and rosary fiddling or whatever you guys do in church, no  visions or miracles, No more Papal infallibility, and no more having to believe that at holy Communion you are literally eating the flesh of Christ   -_and above all no dodgy priests_. Ours get married for goodness sake !
> 
> If you are still into lots of ceremony and fancy dressed priests - join the C of I . You may be put off by the sight of women clergy but much of ceremony is similar to yours and the priests wear pretty coloured outfits.
> 
> If you don't want the fancy paraphanelia of RC and even C of I -then become a Methodist .Much more basic - and none of the hierachy that C of I, like R.C., has. Just simple ministers.
> 
> Belief in God is somewhat optional for C of I attendees. i've been an athiest all my life but always found Cof I a nice place to socialise. *I regard myself as a Protestant athiest with no qualms until such time as the Humanists have lots of social centres and singing. Nice sing-songs as well.
> *
> Methodists a bit more dour- push the God thing a bit more and dont seem to have as many hymns during the services.
> 
> Even more strict and full of the God are Baptists and Presbyterians -but if you feel like a weekly equivalent of Croac Patrick then they'll do you fine. Much more talk about sin and redemption. (Don't bother with Congregationalists -too few churches to bother about).
> 
> There such a wide choice of Proddy churches -including tiny ones like Quakers (wonderful sect -full of really nice goody-goody people) that i wonder why anyone  still calls themselves Roman catholic.
> 
> ..and we haven't got on to the other Christian denominations - Greek Orthodox for example. Nice little church at Arbor Hill. lovely liturgy that goes on for ever  but no audience particpation. And no decent seats.
> 
> P.S. Let's not forget Sikhs, Hindus, Moslems,Buddists and Jews.
> 
> So, WHY, if you still believe in God -or not - do any of you call yoursleves Roman catholics.?
> There a whole wide world out there of alternative mumbo-jumbo and from what I know in my years of studying  religion there's far less child buggery amongst the clergy of those religions than there is in the Holy Roman Catholic Faith.



Post of the year for me. The bit in bold made me laugh too!


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## RMCF

Ceist Beag said:


> Simple oldnick - see the post from RMCF re school entry for children. I would imagine this is the only reason for remaining in the church for an awful lot of people.



Thats probably the only reason I remain one tbh.

I would say that 95% of people my age that I know personally do not attend church, except for weddings, funerals, baptisms etc. Not weekly.

And could you blame them?

I still technically am an RC, but in name only. I have lost nearly all respect for the organisation and their hypocrisy. And I would bet that it has for most of the younger generation. Its only my parents generation that are still keeping it afloat imho. Once they are gone, the CC is gonna face their day of reckoning around here. OK so they might branch out in the likes of Africa but they have really burnt their bridges in this country, and their downfall cannot come soon enough.


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## Staples

On the other hand why should anyone give up their reiligion just because of the people in charge.  The church comprises everyone not just those with the funny outfits.

If I was strong catholic I'd be well piddled off with people who are dragging its name down but your faith is your faith.  It need not be affected by the actions of others.


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## Purple

Great post Old Nick, really funny and well written. It made me laugh as well.
I’m half way to being a Protestant Atheist; I’m an atheist 
If I did believe in God (the Christian one) then I’d be a protestant (some soup, if it was going, would be a bonus).


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## Shawady

Yeah, but if you get you information from the Simpsons (and I do), Catholic heaven is more fun than Protestant heaven.
Remember the episode when Homer was swaying towards catholic and he was shown the two different heavens. The protestants were on their cloud playing croquet whereas the catholics were drinking, fighting and then all joined together to form a large riverdance routine.


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## Purple

Shawady said:


> Yeah, but if you get you information from the Simpsons (and I do), Catholic heaven is more fun than Protestant heaven.
> Remember the episode when Homer was swaying towards catholic and he was shown the two different heavens. The protestants were on their cloud playing croquet whereas the catholics were drinking, fighting and then all joined together to form a large riverdance routine.



Yea, good point (and yes; that's my main source of information as well).


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## Complainer

RMCF said:


> Would their decision stand up to a legal challenge, do you think?


From what I know, these exceptions are well covered in our equality legislation, so I guess it would have to be a constitutional challenge of some kind.

Anyway, I'm drifting towards pastafarianism myself, now that an EU government has finally recognised it;

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14135523


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## Betsy Og

Ian O'Doherty had a good snippet on Pastafarianism today - worth a read


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## Sunny

Betsy Og said:


> Ian O'Doherty - worth a read


 
Never thought I read those two things in the same sentence!


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## Purple

Ian O'Doherty and Complainer agreeing on something!
I don't know which one of them would be more upset


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## DrMoriarty

Purple said:


> I’m half way to being a Protestant Atheist; I’m an atheist
> If I did believe in God (the Christian one) then I’d be a protestant (some soup, if it was going, would be a bonus).


Disconcertingly, I find myself entirely in synch with Purple on this, and yet I suspect my arm would have to rot off my arm before I could place a 'X' next to the name of a Fianna Fáil candidate.

Where does that leave me?


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## horusd

oldnick, what was it they used to say about de Anglicans, RC's without a Pope or somethinglike that . Have to say the smells, bells and lovely music of a latin mass are hard to beat., if, like me you like all that. But I just switch off for the sermons etc.  I did attend a Baptist Christmas service once, it was lovely. And in winter I often go to St Pat's for a nice Sunday Evensong. 

I must say tho that the RC Church should really be considered it's members and not the ruling elites. I have no particular gripe with most RC churchgoers. They are believers like anyone else. All they, and all the Churches, mosques etc need to keep in mind is that religion is a private matter. There should be a clear delinieation between it and society. I don't think any religion should run schools, that's the states job.


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## horusd

Purple said:


> Great post Old Nick, really funny and well written. It made me laugh as well.
> I’m half way to being a Protestant Atheist; I’m an atheist
> If I did believe in God (the Christian one) then I’d be a protestant (some soup, if it was going, would be a bonus).


 
Didn't they call catholics who coverted during the famine "Soupers"? Bet it wasn't that freeze-dried muck ye get these days


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## Purple

horusd said:


> Didn't they call catholics who coverted during the famine "Soupers"? Bet it wasn't that freeze-dried muck ye get these days


It goes back to the salvation army giving soup to people who converted AFAIK


----------



## horusd

Purple said:


> It goes back to the salvation army giving soup to people who converted AFAIK


 
Right so, but they better up their game, the Hari Krishtna's have my vote in the food for soul business!


----------



## csirl

How come these Bishops are still allowed to be patrons of schools? If it were any other organisation, there is no way it would be allowed.


----------



## oldnick

...probably because bishops have had a lot of experience with little children.


----------



## Sunny

oldnick said:


> ...probably because bishops have had a lot of experience with little children.



Harsh! I am not religious at all but I do have sympathy for all the genuine catholic priests and bishops. Just like I sympathy for genuine teachers of Islam when they all get called terrorists! I remember when my dad died the comfort that my mam got from her faith. I was jealous that she had it. She is now a huge critic of the church. That to me is the biggest shame of all this. Not only have victims been treated like crap but ordinary Catholics have had their faith destroyed.


----------



## Purple

csirl said:


> How come these Bishops are still allowed to be patrons of schools? If it were any other organisation, there is no way it would be allowed.



It's because they own them.


----------



## Duke of Marmalade

I have been pondering the following. This CCSA seems to only occur in Anglo Saxon type cultures, USA, Canada, Australia, Ireland (UK?? not sure). Most catholics live in the Club Med, South America and the Philipines and the scandal does not seem to be prevalent in those parts. Also let me put in the mix that I spent 15 years schooling in a very catholic environment a long time ago and never once experienced or even heard rumours of CCSA.

So my theory is that the RC clerical culture has simply been unable to cope with the tide of modern Anglo Saxon licentiousness and pornography. Please, I am not exonerating the CC, simply observing that it appears to be the extreme cultural mix that has been explosive.

BTW, IMHO I do not at all expect priests to snitch to the Revenue, the Gardai or whoever, anything that is revealed to them in confession, and I am not sure it is right that the Minister of Justice who is a Jew should be demanding this.


----------



## Purple

The incidents in other countries are often linked to places where Irish priests went. This was the case in Newfoundland (Christian brother), the USA, Canada and Australia. I wish it was not so.


----------



## Purple

DrMoriarty said:


> Disconcertingly, I find myself entirely in synch with Purple on this, and yet I suspect my arm would have to rot off my arm before I could place a 'X' next to the name of a Fianna Fáil candidate.
> 
> Where does that leave me?



I'm not a Fianna Fail supporter or member and haven't voted for them since before Bertie took over so you may feel concerted again .


----------



## oldnick

In case it comes across that i despise all papist priests...

I don't think that most or even many priests actually sexually molested children.
I believe my RC friends when they aver that they were never molested.
I'd probably guess that over 90% of priests have never physically abused anyone.

However, it's not the paedophiles per se that are the only problem.  It's the Roman Catholic Church's disgraceful conspiracy to silence those who wish to speak out,  and,worse,  to protect that evil small percent of child molesters.

As for the interesting ethno-sociological theory that this may be an Anglo-Saxon phenomenon,  may I mention  the terrible scandal recently come to light in Belgium. Hundreds of children abused- maybe thousands. Again covered up by the RC church. And what about that nasty bishop in Munich ?  I'll wager we'll soon learn about horrors in other RC countries -despite the attempts of the Church to cover them up.

I believe that wherever there are RC clergy there's sexual abuse - and the nasty conspiracy to hide that abuse.
 (Except maybe South America or Africa where, I gather, priests have a somewhat more lax attitude to the celibacy rule and therefore choose the company of young -but adult- women rather than eight year old boys.)

Actually,as i write this, I reckon that ,really, i do despise Papist priests.

_* "Church" meaning the  hierachy of the organisation ,not  the people who say they are R.catholics._


----------



## The_Banker

Duke of Marmalade said:


> I have been pondering the following. This CCSA seems to only occur in Anglo Saxon type cultures, USA, Canada, Australia, Ireland (UK?? not sure). Most catholics live in the Club Med, South America and the Philipines and the scandal does not seem to be prevalent in those parts. Also let me put in the mix that I spent 15 years schooling in a very catholic environment a long time ago and never once experienced or even heard rumours of CCSA.
> 
> So my theory is that the RC clerical culture has simply been unable to cope with the tide of modern Anglo Saxon licentiousness and pornography. Please, I am not exonerating the CC, simply observing that it appears to be the extreme cultural mix that has been explosive.
> 
> BTW, IMHO I do not at all expect priests to snitch to the Revenue, the Gardai or whoever, anything that is revealed to them in confession, and I am not sure it is right that the Minister of Justice who is a Jew should be demanding this.



You can bet your bottom dollar that this already happening in the Philippines/Africa/South America. Primetime recently did a programme where they investigated priests in Africa and came up with the same type scandals. Colm O'Gorman did a documentary on the Catholic Church in South America/Mexico where again he found cover up after cover up. 
The Belgium police raided the house of an arch bishop in Brussels (the Vatican complained) because of his connections to a pedophile ring.
Hardly all Anglo Saxon cultures?

There was no pornography in Ireland in the 30s/40s/50s in Ireland and abuse was widespread back then. Your point that "licentiousness and pornography" is the cause of the scandals today is akin to the present pope blaming secular society for the scandals in the church today. 

The religion of the Minister for Justice should and does not have any bearing on the job that he has to do. He is a minister in this republic and his first duty is to the people in this republic (including children). 

Never have I been more repulsed by a post on AAM before.


----------



## Duke of Marmalade

_The Banker_, I apologise for offending you. Let me make it clear that the revelations disgust me as much as anybody else, even the look of that Bishop Magee makes me want to wrench.

I was merely pondering that the CCSA thing seemed to me to be the result of a collision between the oppressive clerical celibate culture and the permissiveness of modern Anglo Saxon protestantism and of course the totally free mixing of the cultures through modern mass media. You and others argue that things were always this bad and are this bad in all other cultures where a catholic priest can be found. I am not so sure.

I think it is a cheap and religously offensive shot, to attack the seal of confession. It has no practical importance whatsoever. If there was any fear that this law could be enforced then would be confessors would simply go abroad to make their confessions. It is after all a universal church. I think it is at least debatable the appropriateness of a minister who professes the Jewish faith making such a point. Or is it not PC to refer to this aspect?


----------



## horusd

Clerical abuse scandals abound, and are far from the exclusive preserve of the RCC in Anglo-Saxon countries. Think of some of the issues that arose in Germany surrounding the current pope for example. What the official church has failed to do, has been to address this whilst placing the victims interests and not itself as foremost in it's mind. 

The maxim that the Church thinks in centuries is telling. Scandals come and go, governments likewise, the Church remains (and can remain, constant and unchanging) with it's unique truth. This typical kind of thinking divorces the ruling elite from the realities of abuse, and it's priorities are focused not on it  but rather on keeping itself in business. The meaningless groveling platitudes simply mask this deeper purpose, and a deeper mindset. God will punish the wrongdoer and reward the abused in the hereafter, so what's the big problem?

This type of thinking is central to it's attitude, but also central is the deep fear of human sexuality and  a view of human sinfulness rooted in unbridled and thus terrifying "passion". Why is this so? Likely it is an issue of control. Sex seems to represent a loss of control; if people aren't controlled by a fear-based theology(damnation) in their sexual lives what other things might they question and challenge?  So, sex is the dark horse threatening the entire edifice. And thus sexuality is warped out of all recognition, and even talking about it is taboo. It should really suprise no-one that all the men who enforce this rule are themselves warped by this guilt-ridden, shame-laden l theology, and in that atmosphere the spectre of child abuse can easily arise.

As for non-RCC religions, I don't think many of them can overly pat themselves on the back. Some pretty strange attitudes to sexuality are often part of their theology. Perhaps the difference is partly one of scale.The RCC is vast in comparison to many of them.


----------



## oldnick

Not being a Catholic, thank God, I'm not sure what this confession thing is.....

Ignorantly, I had thought the purpose of the confession was to ackowledge sins, repent of them, ask forgiveness -_and be willing to do penance and make amends for those sins._
So, how does exposing a sinner's confession detract from any of that ?
If a sinner is making a true confession which involves doing penance and making amends then that sinner should expect - look forward to - being reported and duly punished.

But if a paedophile priest thinks that by popping into a box and telling another priest how he rapes kids and really expect not to be properly punished then he's not really make a true confession , is he ? Thus the so-called seal of confession does not apply.  

Or have I got that wrong? Perhaps a good Catholic could enlighten me....

p.s. I'm so glad there's a Jew in the cabinet -along with a few agnostics and atheists.
The Jew in question,incidentally, is not just a brilliant lawyer but one that has specialised in dealing with delicate matters surrounding families and children. 
No better man.


----------



## Duke of Marmalade

_oldnick_ the last time I went to confession I think it was to confess that I took a penny from the mantlepiece, so I am not an expert However, as would be expected of your namesake you do ask a very pertinent question. As far as I recall, the object was not about receiving punishment but, you are right, it was about making amends. So the priest who is actually hearing the confession should recommend what making amends would constitute. It does not necessarily mean giving yourself up and receiving your just secular punishment, though it could do.

I still think it was brazen for a person professing a different religion to stray into very sensitive areas of another religion. As I said before nothing any minister or law could say about the seal of confession would have any practical impact, it is a cheap point scoring shot.


----------



## horusd

Duke of Marmalade said:


> _..._
> I still think it *was brazen for a person professing a different religion to stray into very sensitive areas of another religion*. As I said before nothing any minister or law could say about the seal of confession would have any practical impact, it is a cheap point scoring shot.


 
The MOJ's religion is totally irrelevant to this discussion. He acts on behalf of the cabinet & gov't, and us, the people of this state. Whether the breaking of the seal of confession has any practical impact, it has huge legal and moral import. We, the state do not absolve *anyone* from the law of the land. We do not kow tow to a foreign power, religious or otherwise, who have intervened in our internal politics and acted contrary to the common good and the expressed will of the citizens of this state. The Nuncio should be told to leave after we receive the predictable meaningless tosh by way of an "answer" from the Vatican.


 You should be more concerned with the interference of a hostile foreign &  monarchical power than the irrelevant jewishness of Mr Shatter. He is eminently qualified for his job.


----------



## The_Banker

horusd said:


> the moj's religion is totally irrelevant to this discussion. He acts on behalf of the cabinet & gov't, and us, the people of this state. Whether the breaking of the seal of confession has any practical impact, it has huge legal and moral import. We, the state do not absolve *anyone* from the law of the land. We do not kow tow to a foreign power, religious or otherwise, who have intervened in our internal politics and acted contrary to the common good and the expressed will of the citizens of this state. The nuncio should be told to leave after we receive the predictable meaningless tosh by way of an "answer" from the vatican.
> 
> 
> You should be more concerned with the interference of a hostile foreign &  monarchical power than the irrelevant jewishness of mr shatter. He is eminently qualified for his job.



+1


----------



## Duke of Marmalade

Look,  confessor priests have long been technically guilty of obstruction of justice.  Classic examples are the IRA, the Mafia and America's prohibition era gangsters, all three groups "practising" catholics.  To raise this old chestnut in the current context is highly provocative to the vast majority in this Republic who profess themselves to be catholics.  It was grossly offensive for the MoJ to involve himself with another religion's taboos.  He should stick to the secular job.

BTW I hope that as a representative of our government he will tone down his infamous support of Zionist oppression in the Holy Land.


----------



## Purple

Duke of Marmalade said:


> BTW I hope that as a representative of our government he will tone down his infamous support of Zionist oppression in the Holy Land.



What's that meant to mean? Ireland is probably the most anti-Israeli country in Europe!


----------



## Duke of Marmalade

Purple said:


> What's that meant to mean? Ireland is probably the most anti-Israeli country in Europe!


Yes, that is the view of the Irish people, which I do not myself agree with, but I expect our MoJ to take heed of the majority view. 

I sense some double standards in this whole discussion. CCSA is Vile & Heinous. All agreed, except maybe Benny and his Nuncio. However, I am not sure the people of Gazza would agree that what is being meted out to them with the warm approval of our MoJ is less V&H. 

I repeat that invoking the tired old debate about the seal of confession versus the obligation to protect society is opportunistic and deeply offensive to the catholic faithful majority of this country at a time when they are suffering so badly from the CCSA revelations themselves.


----------



## horusd

Duke of Marmalade said:


> ... *To raise this old chestnut in the current context is highly provocative to the vast majority in this Republic who profess themselves to be catholics.* It was grossly offensive for the MoJ to involve himself with another religion's taboos. He should stick to the secular job.
> 
> BTW I hope that as a representative of our government he will tone down his infamous support of Zionist oppression in the Holy Land.


 
So, you can speak for the majority? How do you know that catholics could be presumed to support the seal of confession over and above the land of the land?

 The MoJ is an elected minister of this state, he is stating the patently obvious, as has the taoiseach and the rest of the gov't. The law of the land precedes all other laws, canonical or otherwise. No person, citizen or otherwise, can presume to claim a higher authority or the ramblings of a foreign prince and disobey the laws of this state. This fact is not like the child protection policies that some cardinal labelled a "discussion document"which could tacitly be ignored and provided a fig-leaf excuse for the recalcitrant clerics like Magee and his Vicar-General.

The MoJ religion is an irrelevance and I simply don't know why you keep raising it. He is not interfering in "another's religion or their taboo's", he and the Irish gov't sets the laws governing Ireland, regardless of what religion anyone is. He is the Irish minister setting out Irish law, not a Jewish religious representative. 

When we threw off British rule in 1916, we kicked out one foreign monarchy, but that was only a job half done. We now need to kick out the other one, Rome.


----------



## Duke of Marmalade

_horusd_ the "seal of confession" is a religous thing. No minister should be publicly interfering in religous beliefs but it is especially offensive when the minister does not even profess that religion.

SoC does not protect anybody from the secular law. A person making a confession is making a voluntary act in the context of his religous beliefs. If he thought for one moment that this equated to confessing to the gardai he would not do so and would satisfy his religous requirements in another jurisdiction. 

Of course, if the confessor priest is aware of the illegal behaviour being confessed from another source then no way does the SoC absolve him from reporting the perp.

I guess you think your repeated references to foreign princes is clever, sorry but I find them puerile.


----------



## RMCF

horusd said:


> *We now need to kick out the other one, Rome*.



Best quote of this thread.
100% agree.


----------



## oldnick

I suspect that precisely because he is jewish Shatter may guard his words more carefully than, say,a good Catholic like Flanagan.

I also wonder if the Irish had rejected Rome long ago they wouldn't have kicked out the monarchy. 

As someone who abhors strong religious or nationalistic sentiment from any religion or country I have waited most of my life to be able to openly criticize the RC church in this country. I did not out of fear of offending my good decent RC friends and fellow-citizens.

Nowadays I find them to be more anti-church than I am ! 
Listening to one's RC friends or reading the newspapers reminds me of the woman who realises that the man she always loved is a bullying swine - something her friends knew but said nothing.


----------



## horusd

_[/QUOTE]_

_horusd_ the "seal of confession" is a religous thing. No minister should be publicly interfering in religous beliefs but it is especially offensive when the minister does not even profess that religion.

*He isn't interfering in any religious thing. He is stating that the priest (not the penitant) is subject to a legal duty to disclose child abuse, should it arise, in order to protect the vulnerable, and this is his duty which cannot be set aside. Cardinal Brady, you will recall, swore two children to secrecy about abuse in a former role. Secrecy is a friend to the abuser. Priests are citizens like any other, they cannot be treated differently from a counsellor or the like. *

SoC does not protect anybody from the secular law. A person making a confession is making a voluntary act in the context of his religous beliefs. If he thought for one moment that this equated to confessing to the gardai he would not do so and would satisfy his religous requirements in another jurisdiction. 

*The likliehood of this scenario arising is minute. Nonetheless, if it did it would of course protect the abuser, silence = collusion in the crime, and the confessor priest would be complicit and should be held accountable. He stands no different before the law than an Austrian Pastaferian, and nor should he.*

Of course, if the confessor priest is aware of the illegal behaviour being confessed from another source then no way does the SoC absolve him from reporting the culprit.

I guess you think your repeated references to foreign princes is clever, sorry but I find them puerile.

*The established judicial commissions of this state have received no response at all or been informed that the Nuncio and the Vatican will not help. Indeed, the Vatican has proactively undermined the laws of this land,and their own guidelines and thus helped abuse to continue.*

*Now I don't want to split hairs on what are foreign princes, but unelected representatives of a man and a foreign state who has all the trappings of very worldly princely wealth, privilege and power, seem to me to fit the catagory nicely.*


[/QUOTE]


----------



## DublinTexas

The evil is that next to being a religion they also have their own state which brings them into belief they can hide behind their own rules, this is clear when the Vatican believes the Irish government failed to respect and protect Vatican sovereignty during the investigations.

So what we need to do is kick the papal nuncio out of Ireland, close our embassy in the Vatican (saves money) and terminate our agreements to recognise the Vatican as a state. A state that harbour criminals and conceals horrific crimes against human beings should not be a state that is recognised by civilised countries.

Than we give the priest a choice, either you stay and like any other citizen (or resident) you agree to the laws of the land and that laws supersede any made up laws by your church or you can leave the country. A believe system’s rules cannot supersede or dictate the law of a democratic country.

If anybody still is not co-operating with the law than let’s throw them into jail, I’m sure some nice prison fellows in Mount Joy will be all too happy to show a cardinal how rape is done, isn’t that one of their made up rules “an eye for an eye”?

If you ask me, anybody who sexually abuses a child does not deserve prison, they deserve to be hung on the next tree, but our law does not allow that (unfortunately) so jail it has to be.

How long are we going to recognise a state that systematic engages in cover ups of rape and abuse under the cloak of being a religion and following their own laws in the believe they supersede the law of the land.


----------



## Purple

DublinTexas said:


> So what we need to do is kick the papal nuncio out of Ireland, close our embassy in the Vatican (saves money) and terminate our agreements to recognise the Vatican as a state. A state that harbour criminals and conceals horrific crimes against human beings should not be a state that is recognised by civilised countries.



Maybe we should classify the Vatican as a “rogue state”. America classifies states that support terrorism as rogue states. Is a state that supports and facilitates child rape any better?


----------



## DublinTexas

Purple said:


> Maybe we should classify the Vatican as a “rogue state”. America classifies states that support terrorism as rogue states. Is a state that supports and facilitates child rape any better?


 
Well there might be no universally agreed definition of terrorism but the common definition includes violent acts which are intended to create fear (terror) that are perpetrated for religious […] goals.

While I currently hold the opinion that the Vatican is a criminal organisation most certainly the idea of declaring it a state sponsor of terrorism isn’t too far off.

Then again what do we expect from an organisation that is run by a war criminal who also allows mass murder in Africa by rejecting condoms and is known to shield other war criminals.

Don’t get me wrong if you want to believe in the religious brand that the Vatican is currently marketing, than that is fine, it’s your right to choose and practise your religion, but if your religion is engaging in criminal activity, than it’s no different than let’s say some other crackpot religions like the Koresh’s Branch Davidians and should be treated as such.

As long as massive amount of people still flock into the churches and don’t kick their cardinals out this is not going to change. It’s the church going folks that need to show that they believe in their own marketing book and change things. As long as criminals are allowed to hide within their organisations this is not going to change.

But in these times with the state sponsored fear of Muslims no state is going to take a firm stand against a western religion as powerful as the Vatican. The state has enough to do to make Muslims the buggy man, they can’t handle another one.


----------



## TarfHead

DublinTexas said:


> Then again what do we expect from an organisation that is run by a war criminal


 
Care to back that statement up ?

When exactly was the Pope convicted of a war crime ?


----------



## MrMan

'Then again what do we expect from an organisation that is run by a war  criminal who also allows mass murder in Africa by rejecting condoms and  is known to shield other war criminals'.

You might want to re-evaluate your argument, mass murder by rejecting condoms??


----------



## DublinTexas

TarfHead said:


> Care to back that statement up ?





TarfHead said:


> When exactly was the Pope convicted of a war crime ?


 
Unfortunately he hasn’t been convicted, but anybody who was part of the Austrian Legion (be it drafted or volunteered) is very much that. 

Can I remind you that he guarded slaves from a KZ while he protected BMW facilities or that he watched Jews being herded to death camps while he and his “unloaded weapon” were in Hungary? 

And I’m sorry but he has actively participated in crimes against Humanity as they were defined by the Nuremberg Trials. Just because he was a little soldier and after the war there was a great amnesty does not change the fact. He participated willingly in this. 

So I’m sorry but for me he is a war criminal and I have no problem calling him that.




MrMan said:


> 'Then again what do we expect from an organisation that is run by a war criminal who also allows mass murder in Africa by rejecting condoms and is known to shield other war criminals'.





MrMan said:


> You might want to re-evaluate your argument, mass murder by rejecting condoms??


 
I’m sorry but any organisation that spreads miss-information about the usage of condoms to combat the spread of HIV/Aids is deplorable and contributes to the death of the people. Just because we in Europe can afford HIV/Aids medication that increases the chance of survival HIV/Aids infected in Africa can’t. 

The church is using false information and uses their influence to stop the usage of an essential tool in combating the spread of the virus. 

Sure, I could be nicer and say contribute to mass deaths rather than murder but the result is the same, they are using their undue influence threatening people with eternal condemnation just as they threatened abuse victims.


----------



## TarfHead

DublinTexas said:


> So I’m sorry but for me he is a war criminal and I have no problem calling him that.


 
One for the MODs, but referring someone as having being convicted of a crime while conceding that they've never being convicted of same is, IMHO, against the standards of AAM.


----------



## Sunny

Calling the Pope a war criminal for what happened during WWII is a bit mad to be honest.


----------



## MrMan

'Sure, I could be nicer and say contribute to mass deaths rather than  murder but the result is the same, they are using their undue influence  threatening people with eternal condemnation just as they threatened  abuse victims'.

Apart from the fact that Catholicism isn't the main religion in Africa, there is quite a difference between murder and the spread of Aids in africa. Sensationalism will only undermine your argument.
Ireland is predominantly Catholic, yet the use of condoms isn't an issue here so I think you give the vatican too much credit on their actual influence.


----------



## Purple

Sunny said:


> Calling the Pope a war criminal for what happened during WWII is a bit mad to be honest.





MrMan said:


> 'Sure, I could be nicer and say contribute to mass deaths rather than  murder but the result is the same, they are using their undue influence  threatening people with eternal condemnation just as they threatened  abuse victims'.
> 
> Apart from the fact that Catholicism isn't the main religion in Africa, there is quite a difference between murder and the spread of Aids in africa. Sensationalism will only undermine your argument.
> Ireland is predominantly Catholic, yet the use of condoms isn't an issue here so I think you give the vatican too much credit on their actual influence.



I have to agree with these posts. I'm no fan of the Pope or their stance on AIDS but the evangelical Protestant Churches are the ones doing the damage in the Christian parts of Africa. AIDS is a major problem in the Muslim parts as well.


----------



## DublinTexas

Okay, well than I have learned something today.

I cannot call a person that guarded a forced slave labour camp or stood there watching slaves send to their dead a war criminal unless he got convicted. 

So I do apologize to Mr Ratzinger for my mistake.

And I cannot say that the church is a contributing factor in mass murder for their influence on people in Africa (or other parts) with their unprotected sex for recreation stance. 

So in future I will have to make less sensational statements.

Lesson learned.


----------



## horusd

You know, the Donegal school caretaker Micheal Ferry case is equally (if not more) disturbing. A convicted abuser returns to his job and re-abuses. You really have to wonder at who runs that school & the local gardai. Will heads roll? I doubt it.The school say they will issue a statement "soon". Is it just possible that the hubris, arrogance, self-denial and self-deceit so prevelant in Cloyne and so many other places runs deeper than just the church's elites?

I just watched that brave young man in the Donegal case who waved his anonymity so that Ferry could be named, read a statement on the steps of the Courts. What was heart-wrenching was that he stood* alone*, his voice trembling with emotion, his face a study in pain. What was incredible was his bravery.

There are so many of these people in this country. I also heard a Cloyne's survivor demand Magee's appearance to account for himself. She pointed out that she couldn't escape or run off to Italy, she had to live and work. That says it all really, the incredible strength and courage of the abused, and the lack of these qualities in most of those who are supposed to lead the church, and the school/Gardai in Donegal it now seems.


----------



## Duke of Marmalade

I note lots of anti catholic invective on this thread but I also sense that contributors believe in the democratic will of the people.

Let me then remind folk that the vast majority of this country believe that Benny is JC's rep on earth and that makes Him way above any secular laws.


----------



## DrMoriarty

I don't know about this "vast majority" you keep invoking, but I for one hope that "Benny" enjoys a suitably warm reception when he joins his illustrious predecessors.


----------



## Purple

DrMoriarty said:


> I don't know about this "vast majority" you keep invoking, but I for one hope that "Benny" enjoys a suitably warm reception when he joins his illustrious predecessors.



I knew where that link was pointing before I opened it. I agree 100%


----------



## horusd

Duke of Marmalade said:


> I note lots of anti catholic invective on this thread but I also sense that contributors believe in the democratic will of the people.
> 
> Let me then remind folk that the vast majority of this country believe that *Benny is JC's rep on earth and that makes Him way above any secular laws*.


 
I'm not sure if your serious here Duke? Anecdotally, if you listen to church-goers interviewed about abuse, they tend to find the church's arrogance when it comes to breaking "secular" laws, and the responses of the Vatican & most Bishops reprehensible. So I don't understand who you think the "vast majority" are?  In fact, I suspect that the faithful might well view the church's response as directly leading to it's demise. More than one victim has stated that the response has effectively robbed them of their faith,


----------



## Ceist Beag

horusd said:


> You know, the Donegal school caretaker Micheal Ferry case is equally (if not more) disturbing. A convicted abuser returns to his job and re-abuses. You really have to wonder at who runs that school & the local gardai. Will heads roll? I doubt it.The school say they will issue a statement "soon". Is it just possible that the hubris, arrogance, self-denial and self-deceit so prevelant in Cloyne and so many other places runs deeper than just the church's elites?
> 
> I just watched that brave young man in the Donegal case who waved his anonymity so that Ferry could be named, read a statement on the steps of the Courts. What was heart-wrenching was that he stood* alone*, his voice trembling with emotion, his face a study in pain. What was incredible was his bravery.
> 
> There are so many of these people in this country. I also heard a Cloyne's survivor demand Magee's appearance to account for himself. She pointed out that she couldn't escape or run off to Italy, she had to live and work. That says it all really, the incredible strength and courage of the abused, and the lack of these qualities in most of those who are supposed to lead the church, and the school/Gardai in Donegal it now seems.



+1 to all of that horusd, the young man was (and is) incredibly brave, a polar opposite from those in positions of responsibility. No doubt those responsible in the school in question were/will be having meetings now to try and phrase their response such that no blame can be laid at their doorstep!


----------



## Duke of Marmalade

horusd said:


> I'm not sure if your serious here Duke? Anecdotally, if you listen to church-goers interviewed about abuse, they tend to find the church's arrogance when it comes to breaking "secular" laws, and the responses of the Vatican & most Bishops reprehensible. So I don't understand who you think the "vast majority" are? In fact, I suspect that the faithful might well view the church's response as directly leading to it's demise. More than one victim has stated that the response has effectively robbed them of their faith,


The faithful are struggling with the CCSA thing no doubt. But as to the posters in this thread who pompously rant about foreign princes and the supremacy of secular law, they are seriously out of touch with the populace. JC himself had no respect for the secular authorities and you are well aware of what happened to Him over his illegal activities. Benny is JC's rep and he would be seriously letting down the brand if he kow-towed to any temporal princes, including our MoJ.


----------



## Purple

JC's biggest problems were with the top nobs of the religion of the day.


----------



## Latrade

Duke of Marmalade said:


> The faithful are struggling with the CCSA thing no doubt. But as to the posters in this thread who pompously rant about foreign princes and the supremacy of secular law, they are seriously out of touch with the populace. JC himself had no respect for the secular authorities and you are well aware of what happened to Him over his illegal activities. Benny is JC's rep and he would be seriously letting down the brand if he kow-towed to any temporal princes, including our MoJ.


 
I think those being pompous about secular laws are those that are saying these laws are the law of the land and must be respected irrespective of faith. 

I'm not sure if you're entirely serious though with the posts.


----------



## horusd

Duke the premise that the Pope is above the secular law (in at least your view) suggests a number of highly questionable and dangerous ideas.


You cannot assume that all or even the majority of supposed catholic's agree that this is so. Not all catholics are faithful, not all christened catholics can be assumed to believe in God, let alone the authority of the Pope.
The Church is not one man. And not all catholics will view his views as binding on them.
You ascribe to the Pope as JC's earthly  representative, power that any number of fanatics would love to claim.
Fanatical muslims, some jews, Borneoan animists, or voodoo practicitioners probably also claim to God's chosen, maybe even the odd Austrian pastaferian too. Can all these ignore mere "secular" laws too?
The RC church uniquely is both a temporal power and a supposed spiritual power. It's temporal status is well-used  by it to further it's ends. When it acts in this capacity, it acts as a temporal power. When it's "ambassadors" flouts commissions in Ireland and elsewhere, and actively undermines the laws of the state and indeed it's own guidelines, who should it be subject to?


----------



## DrMoriarty

Duke of Marmalade said:


> Benny is JC's rep and he would be seriously letting down the brand if he kow-towed to any temporal princes, including our MoJ.


Now I _know _the Duke is trolling. Or else he's retraining for a new job at Newstalk.


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## DublinTexas

Let’s all consider that we are lucky are we are not forced to pay for the RC and their dubious actions in Ireland like for example in Germany.

In Germany you have to pay 8-9% of your income tax to the church, no matter what. It’s automatically deducted from your salary and the only way out of it is to formally leave the church (no it’s not just stop attending, you have to go to your local authority and declare formally that you leave the church and pay a 50€ fee for that too). 

Once that is done your church will no longer do anything for you as you have left the church. So you can claim to be RC but because you are not paying them they will not do anything for you. So forget it if you want a church service when you die, not possible, as you decided to leave church. Forget it if you want to marry in church, not possible.

All the while the church in some areas makes 65% of their riches by this tax.


----------



## Mpsox

Speaking as someone who was born and raised in the diocese of Cloyne and who attended the Diocesesian Seminary (which was the local boarding school) where at least 2 of the cases of abuse happened I've been reading a lot on what happened in Cloyne and speaking to friends/family about it over the last few days.

Fortunately, in my time at the boarding school in the 80s, nothing ever happened me nor was I aware of anything going on (albeit, I think we were more innocent back then anyway). The one thing I did learn about priests there was that they were human beings. There were some, who to this day, I have the utmost time and respect for. I can remember 50 of us sitting in their sitting rooms of an evening after study watching the news/a match or whatever was on with no issues. They were good decent men. However, there were others who frankly, were violent, hypocrites and only interested in money. It is wrong to tarnish the whole clergy with the one brush. One poster on here spoke of "boycotting the clergy". Does that include the parish priest who reported a fellow priest to Magee, not once, but twice, then contacted the bishops office to find out when the investigator was due to visit and then when nothing was happening, contacted the external authorities.? (This is in the Murphy report). 

Magee was never popular in Cloyne. He was a "blow in" for starters (and you know what us Cork people are like!!). He didn't endure himself to the parishes when parish property was sold and the money went into diocesan funds as opposed to parish funds. I think his biggest issue was his ego. Because he came from Rome and the higher echelons there and had never really worked in a parish, I think he thought that all of the abuse victims were beneath him and less important than the reputation of the clergy. There are priests in the diocese who had no time for him either. O’Callaghan was just a “yes man”, a lap dog who did what he was told and was put in that position of power because those were the kind of men Magee wanted around him.

The cover up angers me but the cowardice of Magee annoys me even more, but frankly, I don’t think anyone in Cork truly expected much else.

I was at Mass on Sunday (not in Cloyne), with my family. The Parish Priest walked through what is done in the parish and diocese in relation to child protection. I have sympathy for people like him; after all, if one of my colleagues at work turned out to be a serial abuser and it was covered up by our bosses, would I be expected to spend the rest of my career apologizing for them?

Has this shaken my faith?, no to be honest, I don’t think it has. I don’t look at the Catholic Church as just being the Vatican, priests etc, instead, to me, it is a Community of people, and the clergy are just a small part of that. I’m sure people on here will disagree with that, maybe think I’m an idiot or a fool, that’s fine, that’s your opinion and you’re entitled to that, but I’m also entitled to mine.

As to the future, I do believe the Nuncio should be expelled, but given that our Foreign Affairs agenda is driven by the EU these days, I’ll be surprised if it happens. I also believe all clerical abusers and those who willingly covered it up (as opposed to being simply incompetent) should be defrocked and excommunicated. It won’t happen but I do believe that one day, when they shuffle off this planet, they will be answerable. 

I actually don’t think it will be a bad thing if the power of the Church diminishes in Irish life. Its hold was too great. However can I ask posters on here to remember a couple of things. Firstly, there is a nationwide church collection next Sunday for the African Famine and secondly, there are thousands of people in this country currently being supported by St Vincent de Paul. Whatever people’s opinion of the clergy is, don’t forget and ignore the positive work being done as well


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## Purple

Excellent post Mpsox. Hard to disagree with anything you said.


----------



## jhegarty

Mpsox said:


> Speaking as someone who was....


 

Best post I have a read in a long time.

I would suggest sending it to some newspapers at a letter to the editor.


----------



## TarfHead

mpsox said:


> has this shaken my faith?, no to be honest, i don’t think it has. I don’t look at the catholic church as just being the vatican, priests etc, instead, to me, it is a community of people, and the clergy are just a small part of that.


 
+1



mpsox said:


> however can i ask posters on here to remember a couple of things. Firstly, there is a nationwide church collection next sunday for the african famine and secondly, there are thousands of people in this country currently being supported by st vincent de paul. Whatever people’s opinion of the clergy is, don’t forget and ignore the positive work being done as well


 
+1


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## horusd

Great post mpsox. The good stuff in the Church shouldn't be forgotton. The SVP must be one of the best charities going.


----------



## ney001

No fan of the man but I was much impressed with Enda's speech today - clear and to the point!


----------



## The_Banker

Excellent speech by Enda. The fact that it was delivered by a devout catholic like Enda give it more impact.

The text of the speech can be read here...

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0720/cloyne1.html


----------



## Duke of Marmalade

The_Banker said:


> Excellent speech by Enda. The fact that it was delivered by a devout catholic like Enda give it more impact.
> 
> The text of the speech can be read here...
> 
> http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0720/cloyne1.html


 
Shatter wrote that speech.


----------



## Purple

Greta speech. Well done Enda!


----------



## horusd

Nice one Enda. Next step in the interests of the entire RC church and for the faithful of that church, send the Nuncio home, and hit the headlines around the world. Let the canon lawyers in Rome try and put out that fire.


----------



## Duke of Marmalade

Just watching the RTE news. Unbelievable. Diarmuid Martin cut a totally pathetic figure, why did he agree to appear? 

AIB share prices have fallen by 99.5%. Similarly, BoI and ILP and of course Anglo has been wiped. 

I couldn't help but see the analogy that the stock price of the RC Church has also fallen by a similar percentage. 

And of course FF has had a similar meltdown.

Who could have ever foreseen such collapses across these pillars of our society.


----------



## Complainer

The_Banker said:


> Excellent speech by Enda.



I'm not so sure. The content was good, but the language and structure was quite complex, e.g. unprecedented juncture, excavates the dysfunction, disconnection, elitism....the narcissism, the primacy of the institution, gimlet eye of a canon lawyer etc etc.

It will be well understood by the chattering classes, but it really won't be well understood by lots of people. It certainly won't be understood at all by the 25% of Irish people that are functionally illiterate.

A bit of plain speaking wouldn't go astray.



Duke of Marmalade said:


> Shatter wrote that speech.


Just curious - is this fact or speculation?


----------



## Purple

Complainer said:


> I'm not so sure. The content was good, but the language and structure was quite complex, e.g. unprecedented juncture, excavates the dysfunction, disconnection, elitism....the narcissism, the primacy of the institution, gimlet eye of a canon lawyer etc etc.
> 
> It will be well understood by the chattering classes, but it really won't be well understood by lots of people. It certainly won't be understood at all by the 25% of Irish people that are functionally illiterate.
> 
> A bit of plain speaking wouldn't go astray.



I can't decide if that's inverted snobbery or patronising or both.


----------



## Teatime

Delighted Enda made that speech and I don't care who wrote it. About time too. The end of Rome rule methinks.


----------



## The_Banker

Duke of Marmalade said:


> *Just watching the RTE news. Unbelievable. Diarmuid Martin cut a totally pathetic figure, why did he agree to appear? *
> 
> AIB share prices have fallen by 99.5%. Similarly, BoI and ILP and of course Anglo has been wiped.
> 
> I couldn't help but see the analogy that the stock price of the RC Church has also fallen by a similar percentage.
> 
> And of course FF has had a similar meltdown.
> 
> Who could have ever foreseen such collapses across these pillars of our society.


 

You do the man an injustice. He is probably the only credible man in the hierarchy. 
He has shown humility and acceptance of the issues that the church caused.


----------



## The_Banker

Duke of Marmalade said:


> Shatter wrote that speech.


 
Link?
Proof?


----------



## Duke of Marmalade

The_Banker said:


> You do the man an injustice. He is probably the only credible man in the hierarchy.
> He has shown humility and acceptance of the issues that the church caused.


I agree. I felt sorry for him. He came on to be humble and contrite and Brian Dobson asked him straight out does he agree with Enda that his boss is evil incarnate. He was then between a rock and a very hard place. 

He subsequently tried a counterpunch with "why no criticism of the State?". For a start Henda did criticise the State or at least former FF governments, but even so this was a truly pathetic counterpunch.


----------



## Sunny

The_Banker said:


> You do the man an injustice. He is probably the only credible man in the hierarchy.
> He has shown humility and acceptance of the issues that the church caused.



I agree. So he can forget about promotion! Not a Enda fan but fair play to him.


----------



## Duke of Marmalade

The_Banker said:


> Link?
> Proof?


I have my methods, very easy to hack voicemails.


----------



## horusd

The Pope is set to cancel his Irish visit following the scorching criticism. I don't think it's any great loss and should save us a few bob into the bargain.

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Po...ter-harsh-criticism-of-Vatican-125682508.html


----------



## Ceist Beag

Complainer said:


> It will be well understood by the chattering classes, but it really won't be well understood by lots of people. It certainly won't be understood at all by the 25% of Irish people that are functionally illiterate.
> 
> A bit of plain speaking wouldn't go astray.



Agree with Purple here Complainer. That's about as condescending as you can get! Do you really honestly believe 25% of the Irish people won't understand the message Enda sent to the Vatican? Probably says more about you if so. That was as impressive a speech as I've heard from a Taoiseach in a long long time. Forthright, no punches pulled, and you could see that this was a Taoiseach speaking on behalf of his people yesterday, there was no fudging, no holding back, fair play Enda, well said.


----------



## Ceist Beag

horusd said:


> The Pope is set to cancel his Irish visit following the scorching criticism. I don't think it's any great loss and should save us a few bob into the bargain.
> 
> http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Po...ter-harsh-criticism-of-Vatican-125682508.html



That report is from Saturday - before the real scorching criticism!


----------



## horusd

Ceist Beag said:


> That report is from Saturday - before the real scorching criticism!


 

Lol. I can definitely cancel me order for a 20 foot Papal flag so.


----------



## Latrade

Complainer said:


> I'm not so sure. The content was good, but the language and structure was quite complex, e.g. unprecedented juncture, excavates the dysfunction, disconnection, elitism....the narcissism, the primacy of the institution, gimlet eye of a canon lawyer etc etc.
> 
> It will be well understood by the chattering classes, but it really won't be well understood by lots of people. It certainly won't be understood at all by the 25% of Irish people that are functionally illiterate.
> 
> A bit of plain speaking wouldn't go astray.


 
Just curious, doesn't illiterate mean difficulty reading and writing rather than mean that 25% of people are stupid? If you're going to champion a cause, try not to offend and patronise the people you're championing. You may be surprised that not only can illiterate people use language and structure that is complex but they also understand it too. In case you missed it, Enda delivered a speech as in oration. He didn't just post up a paper.

Let the complex go and give Enda credit for delivering a powerful and (for this State) landmark speech. One that the vast majority of people got, one that most people couldn't fail to understand the content and context of. So what if the language wasn't "simplified", it's about time we were treated as reasonably intelligent people and not patronised and a politician not appealing to the language of the tabloids.

Somehow I reckon if Gilmore had given the speech you may not have written that post.


----------



## Sunny

The only thing missing was an actual call for Sean Brady to resign his position.


----------



## Purple

The_Banker said:


> You do the man an injustice. He is probably the only credible man in the hierarchy.
> He has shown humility and acceptance of the issues that the church caused.



I agree. I have huge respect for him.
I heard that there is a major conference in the Vatican on child abuse next month. He should be the main speaker but he hasn't even been invited.


----------



## horusd

Sunny said:


> The only thing missing was an actual call for Sean Brady to resign his position.


 

Don't ye know there's a crying need for "wounded healers" Sunny, and the Cardinal is doing us a favour by staying on.  

Dr Martin is the *only* churchman I have any respect for. I did think he looked frail on the TV last night. He's paying a high personal price for his courage.


----------



## horusd

Complainer I had to supress a laugh when I saw that post about lots of people not understanding Enda's speech. If someone else had said it, you would have gone thro them for a shortcut.


----------



## Complainer

Always good to get feedback, folks. Maybe I didn’t explain myself properly, or maybe I was a bit too blunt, or maybe I touched a nerve!  So, just to clarify;

  I didn’t say or suggest or think that anyone is ‘stupid’. However, there is a significant problem with literacy in Ireland today. The research that I saw from 1999 I think indicated that 25% of adults in Ireland were functionally illiterate, and would have difficulty (for example) in reading a drug prescription leaflet or filling out a housing application form. There are many causes, including low levels of education, poor access to education, disability (sensory, intellectual or physical), culture and attitudes, language and many more. 

  I am definitely not trying score political party points or anti-Enda points. For the record, I’ve been reasonably impressed with the way Enda has grown into his role, and I wasn’t surprised at all at today’s opinion poll results. The feedback about Enda I get from Labour people in and around Govt is generally positive. I’d also have no doubt that anyone could easily find a pile of speeches or press releases or policy documents on the Labour website that are similarly obtuse. 

  I take the point that the speech was delivered verbally and not on paper. I didn’t see it myself, and I’d have thought that the vast majority of people didn’t see it. At best, they might have seen a 20-30 second clip on the tv news, followed by commentary from journalists etc. 

  I’m a big fan of plain English. It is generally very hard to sell the concept, and even harder to get people to change. Just like everyone thinks they’re a good driver, everyone pretty much thinks they are a good writer. Most of us aren’t. Testing the effectiveness of written materials does not happen much, in comparison to testing the effectiveness of a new building or testing the effectiveness of a new IT system. Much of our written output does not reach its target audience or have its desired effect. Maybe if we wrote a bit less, with a bit more focus, we would get better results.

  Was it Mark Twain who wrote “I didn’t have time to write you a short letter, so I’m writing you a long one instead”.


----------



## Latrade

Fair enough, but it just seemed an odd point to make in the middle of a discussion on what could well be one of the most significant political speeches witnessed. 

Re above statement I should also state that there have been complaints regarding condescending behaviour not hyperbolic.


----------



## Ceist Beag

Maybe that's where we differ (or should I say yet another place where we differ!) Complainer. I love the richness, colourfulness and breadth of the English language. I love that you can say the same thing a number of different ways. It broadens the mind I feel. So I welcome the language used in the speech. But you still seem to imply that 25% of the country would have difficulty understanding the speech. I fail to see how anyone could have difficulty understanding any of the following:
"The rape and torture of children were downplayed or 'managed' to uphold instead, the primacy of the institution, its power, standing and 'reputation'."
"Cloyne's revelations are heart-breaking. It describes how many victims continued to live in the small towns and parishes in which they were reared and in which they were abused. their abuser often still in the area and still held in high regard by their families and the community."
"This report tells us a tale of a frankly brazen disregard for protecting children. If we do not respond swiftly and appropriately as a State, we will have to prepare ourselves for more reports like this."

I could go on but I'm sure you get the point by now! Just because people might not understand every word in a speech does not mean that they don't understand the message in the speech. You seem to either fail to understand this or are simply making an argument about literacy that has nothing to do with the subject being discussed here.


----------



## Duke of Marmalade

Had to look up "narcissism" myself. Excessive self love. Not too sure.

I want to remind you of the story of Voltaire on his death bed. Asked to renounce the devil he said "now is no time to be making enemies".

There is a possibility that Benny has a direct line to higher powers. Do we really need to make enemies of Him in our hour of economic desperation?


----------



## DrMoriarty

Ratzinger is an enemy of humanity. I seldom wish harm to clerics, but for him I make an exception.

I seldom applaud politicians, but I'm glad Enda Kenny had the cojones to read out that speech — whoever it was written by.


----------



## The_Banker

Duke of Marmalade said:


> Had to look up "narcissism" myself. Excessive self love. Not too sure.
> 
> I want to remind you of the story of Voltaire on his death bed. Asked to renounce the devil he said "now is no time to be making enemies".
> 
> *There is a possibility that Benny has a direct line to higher powers. Do we really need to make enemies of Him in our hour of economic desperation?*



This is real old testament stuff here Duke? Are you saying that God will smite us if we upset his representative here on earth?

Maybe because we won't allow his church control over us anymore is the reason for the economic downturn?

You are either winding us all up or you are deadly serious. For your sake I hope your winding us up.


----------



## Duke of Marmalade

_The Banker_ my guess is that Benny is sticking pins in a Voodoo doll of Henda even as we speak.


----------



## The_Banker

I guess you just answered my question.


----------



## Guest105

Duke of Marmalade said:


> Had to look up "narcissism" myself. Excessive self love. Not too sure.
> 
> I want to remind you of the story of Voltaire on his death bed. Asked to renounce the devil he said "now is no time to be making enemies".
> 
> There is a possibility that Benny has a direct line to higher powers. Do we really need to make enemies of Him in our hour of economic desperation?


 
*Narcissism* is the personality trait of egotism, vanity, conceit, or simple selfishness. Applied to a social group, it is sometimes used to denote elitism or an indifference to the plight of others.



> In psychology, the word is associated with a personality disorder known as Narcissistic personality disorder  it  is a condition characterized by an inflated sense of self-importance, need for admiration, extreme self-involvement, and lack of empathy for others. Individuals with this disorder are usually arrogantly self-assured and confident. They expect to be noticed as superior. Many highly successful individuals might be considered narcissistic. However, this disorder is only diagnosed when these behaviors become persistent and very disabling or distressing.


http://www.mentalhealth.com/dis/p20-pe07.html


----------



## horusd

Duke of Marmalade;1186474... 
I[B said:
			
		

> want to remind you of the story of *Voltaire on his death bed. Asked to renounce the devil he said "now is no time to be making enemies".[/*B]
> ...


 
Brilliant


----------



## RMCF

Good man Enda, said what so many people in this country have been thinking for a long, long time.

Now if we can just get the church separated from most of the things it seems to control int his country, we can all move on.

Lets start with the education system, so I don't have to pretend to be a Catholic any more just to get my children educated.


----------



## Complainer

Ceist Beag said:


> Maybe that's where we differ (or should I say yet another place where we differ!) Complainer. I love the richness, colourfulness and breadth of the English language. I love that you can say the same thing a number of different ways. It broadens the mind I feel. So I welcome the language used in the speech.


Hey, we all love literature, in the right context. I'm just not sure that this is the right context. Presumably, Enda's top priority was to convey a message to a target audience. I really think he's let the language become a barrier to that message.



Ceist Beag said:


> But you still seem to imply that 25% of the country would have difficulty understanding the speech. I fail to see how anyone could have difficulty understanding any of the following:
> "The rape and torture of children were downplayed or 'managed' to uphold instead, the primacy of the institution, its power, standing and 'reputation'."
> "Cloyne's revelations are heart-breaking. It describes how many victims continued to live in the small towns and parishes in which they were reared and in which they were abused. their abuser often still in the area and still held in high regard by their families and the community."
> "This report tells us a tale of a frankly brazen disregard for protecting children. If we do not respond swiftly and appropriately as a State, we will have to prepare ourselves for more reports like this."
> 
> I could go on but I'm sure you get the point by now!


Most of that quoted section is reasonably good. But I'd bet if you read that out to a bunch of passers-by on O'Connell St, how many of them could explain to you what Enda meant by "the primacy of the institution". When was the last time you used 'primacy' in a conversation or a document? It is unnecessarily flowery and convoluted imho. In fact, you could drop 'the primacy of' from the sentence without losing any meaning.



Ceist Beag said:


> Just because people might not understand every word in a speech does not mean that they don't understand the message in the speech.


If there are words in the speech that aren't needed to understand the message, why not cut them out mercilessly. Why not cut the 500 word speech to the 100 words that are important?



Ceist Beag said:


> You seem to either fail to understand this or are simply making an argument about literacy that has nothing to do with the subject being discussed here.


I know that I've gone way off topic here - maybe the mods would like to split?


----------



## Sunny

Complainer has a point. The message that was delivered was great but the speech itself did come across as something written by a script writer on the West Wing. I heard it today for the first time and it was very wordy (if that is even a word!). Like I say though, nothing wrong with the sentiment.


----------



## RMCF

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/wordy


----------



## Duke of Marmalade

The penny has dropped. This is the final act in the Peace Process. Second last act, we had to show that we love the Queen but to really convince our Orange brethren that we are serious about peace we had to show that we hate the Pope.


----------



## Sunny

Duke of Marmalade said:


> The penny has dropped. This is the final act in the Peace Process. Second last act, we had to show that we love the Queen but to really convince our Orange brethren that we are setrious about peace we had to show that we hate the Pope.


 
Time for another 'Love Ulster' parade in Dublin I think...


----------



## horusd

Complainer, your point makes sense. The fact that we're talking about the language used rather than the message proves that at some level. Personally I had to look up "gimlet eye" (deep scrutiny) which I've never heard before. Nonetheless people registered the gist of Enda's speech, and liked it.


----------



## Ceist Beag

I disagree on the language used folks. I mean some statistic may show soon that 25% of the people only understand text speak (or should that be txt spk!) - that doesn't mean the Taoiseach should follow suit! This is a speech that will be read in decades to come so personally I think it should have a quality of language to last the test of time.


----------



## Sunny

Ceist Beag said:


> I disagree on the language used folks. I mean some statistic may show soon that 25% of the people only understand text speak (or should that be txt spk!) - that doesn't mean the Taoiseach should follow suit! This is a speech that will be read in decades to come so personally I think it should have a quality of language to last the test of time.


 
I don't think anyone is asking him to dumb it down. I think it is just one of those speeches that was clearly written by a speech writer who spent a lot of time agonising on the choice of words. There were bits of the speeech that were pure Enda Kenny, but there were parts that clearly weren't. We probably are being over critical though.


----------



## Complainer

Ceist Beag said:


> I disagree on the language used folks. I mean some statistic may show soon that 25% of the people only understand text speak (or should that be txt spk!) - that doesn't mean the Taoiseach should follow suit! This is a speech that will be read in decades to come so personally I think it should have a quality of language to last the test of time.


I can respect different views on this matter, but the underlying issue of literacy is not about 'some statistic'. This is a very real issue for the Irish adult population. See [broken link removed] for details of the research and see [broken link removed] for a more personal understanding of the problems that poor literacy causes.


----------



## Ceist Beag

As I thought we already agreed Complainer, that is a different topic for a different thread. I made no remark about literacy issues in the Irish population, I merely pointed out that this should have no bearing on how such an important speech by our Taoiseach is drafted.


----------



## Complainer

Ceist Beag said:


> I made no remark about literacy issues in the Irish population,


Actually, you did. By saying " I mean some statistic may show soon that 25% of the people only understand text speak (or should that be txt spk!) ", you trivialised this very important issue.



Ceist Beag said:


> I merely pointed out that this  should have no bearing on how such an important speech by our Taoiseach  is drafted.


Absolutely disagree. Enda is Taoiseach for everybody, including the 25% of people who have literacy difficulties. He's not just the Taoiseach for Irish Times readers.


----------



## Mpsox

I have to admit, I'm a little sceptical about Enda's speech. Yes, it was a strong and badly needed speech, but the cynic in me can't help wondering if this was a means of moving the news cycle away from the mess FG/Kenny and the HSE have made of the Roscommon A&E closure and on to something else. The Cloyne report is not the first report on abuse so why didn't Enda make a similar speech when in opposition.? 

I'm also not convinced that the mandatory reporting of abuse to the Gardai is necessarily a good thing. Firstly, as the Cloyne reported illustrated, the Gardai have some significant issues to answer over their own performance. As we've also seen in recent weeks in the west, there are question marks over the HSE performance in dealing with abuse issues as well. Therefore for this law to work, the state needs to get it's own act in gear. Secondly, the victim may not pyschologically be in a postion to deal with or want to deal with what has happened. Forcing them to confront an issue like this may not do them good.


----------



## Ceist Beag

Complainer said:


> Absolutely disagree. Enda is Taoiseach for everybody, including the 25% of people who have literacy difficulties. He's not just the Taoiseach for Irish Times readers.



Sigh, there you go again assuming that those with literacy issues will not understand the content of the speech or think that it is not for them! We're never going to agree on this one and I've said my bit so going to leave it at that.


----------



## Bronte

Have not as yet read the speech. Was talking to the other half today who brought up this subject about Enda's great speech. I said Enda should expel the Papel Nuncio and my OH wondered would I ever be happy. Well my reply is we are talking about the rape of children and no I won't ever be happy until the full extent of the files in the Vatican on all the rapes that we've heard about and not heard about yet are released and dealt with. 

In relation to Mpsox's post about giving the Church money. That's exactly what the Church is about, money and power and that's all they are about. They couldn't care less about Africa etc. That's just another place where they freely practice their perversions under the guise of so called holiness.

The church doesn't not the first think about goodness and kindness.  They know though about accumulating wealth and power.  You don't have to look at the vatican to see that.   Look all around everything you do in Ireland and see what little real choice one has.


----------



## Mpsox

Bronte said:


> In relation to Mpsox's post about giving the Church money. That's exactly what the Church is about, money and power and that's all they are about. They couldn't care less about Africa etc. That's just another place where they freely practice their perversions under the guise of so called holiness.
> 
> The church doesn't not the first think about goodness and kindness. They know though about accumulating wealth and power. You don't have to look at the vatican to see that. Look all around everything you do in Ireland and see what little real choice one has.


 
Are you implying that every missionery who went to Africa didn't care less about Africa and went their to practice their pervisions? Likewise, are you implying that the lay people who give up their time to collect for the St Vincent de Paul and distribute charity to people in need in Ireland are doing so to accumulate wealth and power? 

I've no arguement with your view on the Vatican and how protecting themselves and what they perceived to be the "good reputation " of the church was more important then anything else.


----------



## Complainer

Ceist Beag said:


> Sigh, there you go again assuming that those with literacy issues will not understand the content of the speech or think that it is not for them!


It's hard to see how anyone who would struggle with medicine instructions would not struggle with unprecedented juncture, excavates the dysfunction, disconnection,  elitism....the narcissism, the primacy of the institution, gimlet eye of  a canon lawyer etc.


----------



## Latrade

Complainer said:


> It's hard to see how anyone who would struggle with medicine instructions would not struggle with unprecedented juncture, excavates the dysfunction, disconnection, elitism....the narcissism, the primacy of the institution, gimlet eye of a canon lawyer etc.


 
Why? It's your assumption that these words are beyond them because they can't read. You assume they've never held a conversation beyond basic English, never watched a television programme that doesn't use anything other than basic English or listened to a radio show. 

Their ability to read does has no influence on their ability to understand the content and context of Enda's speech. 

There are actors who were illiterate, but who could converse beyond colloquial grunting and fooled their peers for decades on their illiteracy. That's one of the difficulties with illiteracy is that the individuals become skilled at hiding it. 

So yes Enda used a more educated language. That doesn't mean because 25% of the population can't read a prescription they didn't understand the speech. I champion the same cause as you, but you seem intent on keeping this going on the basis that can't read = can't converse and I can't see any reason why. 

And as I said before, it's about time we did have a politician stand up and give an intelligent speech and not one designed to appeal to a tabloid public. 

Sometimes Complainer, there's nothing to actually complain about. Sometimes you can let something go without loose contrary positions doggedly defended to the bitter end.


----------



## Duke of Marmalade

Whatever about the populace at large, Henda was speaking to Dail Eireann so he should have dumbed it down a bit.  I suppose most of it went over Michael Healy-Rae's head.


----------



## Purple

Can everyone just agree with Complainer on the big issue if literacy so that we can get back to the minor issue of a foreign state acting as an accomplice in the rape of Irish children.


----------



## horusd

"Rte Playback" today recounted the experiences in the Magdalene laundries and industrial schools, from this weeks Joe Duffy show. They were  mostly (entirely?) run by the Church AFAIK. The systematic abuse of children by the RC Church went far deeper than just sexual abuse. I heard a TD, Lucinda Creighton I think, say that this was Ireland's Holocaust. I initially thought it was an OTT comparison, but now I'm not so sure she's that far off the mark.

The Vatican is not directly responsible for this I suppose but Christ wouldn't think much of their legalistic handling of the whole affair. If they had real faith in Christ, absolute faith, you would imagine a completely different response. And there's the problem, they don't even adhere to their own beliefs.


----------



## Duke of Marmalade

Interesting contrary view by Breda O'Brien in today's IT. Henda quoted Josef Ratzinger in 1992 as writing that "standards appropriate to civil society or the workings of a democracy cannot be simply applied to the church". Apparently this is quoted hugely out of context. What Benny was referring to was that you don't conduct opinion polls to decide matters of theology. Also Breda points out that the Cloyne report did not say that the Vatican tried to frustrate an inquiry as Henda asserted. 

And another thing, where did Henda dig up that obscure piece of writing from 20 years ago.  Don't tell me Shatter isn't behind this speech.

It looks to me that Henda (Shatter) was OTT and the wondrous thing is that the vast majority of Irish commenters are lapping it up. The stock price of the RC church has fallen by 99.9% over the last 20 years, even worse than AIB.


----------



## Complainer

Latrade said:


> Why? It's your assumption that these words are beyond them because they can't read. You assume they've never held a conversation beyond basic English, never watched a television programme that doesn't use anything other than basic English or listened to a radio show.


That's nowhere near what I said. You're presenting literacy as a binary state, that people either can or can't read and write. That's not the case. There are levels and degrees of literacy.



Latrade said:


> Their ability to read does has no influence on their ability to understand the content and context of Enda's speech.


I just don't understand this. How do you expect them to 'understand the content and context of Enda's speech', if not by reading it?



Latrade said:


> There are actors who were illiterate, but who could converse beyond colloquial grunting and fooled their peers for decades on their illiteracy. That's one of the difficulties with illiteracy is that the individuals become skilled at hiding it.


Any names?



Latrade said:


> And as I said before, it's about time we did have a politician stand up and give an intelligent speech and not one designed to appeal to a tabloid public.


It's quite sad that you feel the need to label people with literacy difficulties as 'tabloid'.



Latrade said:


> Sometimes Complainer, there's nothing to actually complain about. Sometimes you can let something go without loose contrary positions doggedly defended to the bitter end.


As Tina Turner might sing, "It takes two-oooo-oooo, baybeeeeee"


----------



## Purple

Can any of the lawyers on the site offer an opinion as to the possibility of a conviction of some of the bishops etc on the grounds of being an accessory to child abuse? Helping someone to hide the money after they rob a bank is a crime. Covering up the rape of a child and/or facilitating the rapist to rape again should be covered by the same sort of law.


----------



## Mpsox

horusd said:


> "Rte Playback" today recounted the experiences in the Magdalene laundries and industrial schools, from this weeks Joe Duffy show. They were mostly (entirely?) run by the Church AFAIK. The systematic abuse of children by the RC Church went far deeper than just sexual abuse. I heard a TD, Lucinda Creighton I think, say that this was Ireland's Holocaust. I initially thought it was an OTT comparison, but now I'm not so sure she's that far off the mark.
> 
> The Vatican is not directly responsible for this I suppose but Christ wouldn't think much of their legalistic handling of the whole affair. If they had real faith in Christ, absolute faith, you would imagine a completely different response. And there's the problem, they don't even adhere to their own beliefs.


 
Ruairi Quinn made the point after his meeting with the religous orders last week that the state was probably half responsible for the laundries and industrial schools. In effect, the state mitigated it's social responsibilites to single mothers/ families in difficulties or for difficult/troubled children and handed it over to the religous orders, who then exploited those children for their own profit. It suited the state to sweep these issues under the carpet and it suited those running those schools because they made money out of what in effect was close to slave labour.


----------



## Latrade

Purple said:


> Can any of the lawyers on the site offer an opinion as to the possibility of a conviction of some of the bishops etc on the grounds of being an accessory to child abuse? Helping someone to hide the money after they rob a bank is a crime. Covering up the rape of a child and/or facilitating the rapist to rape again should be covered by the same sort of law.


 
If we're going to go down the path of the Bible and Canonical Law being above State Law, then why not go along with it? Gather them up and stone them.


----------



## horusd

Mpsox said:


> Ruairi Quinn made the point after his meeting with the religous orders last week that the state was probably half responsible for the laundries and industrial schools. In effect, the state mitigated it's social responsibilites to single mothers/ families in difficulties or for difficult/troubled children and handed it over to the religous orders, who then exploited those children for their own profit. It suited the state to sweep these issues under the carpet and it suited those running those schools because they made money out of what in effect was close to slave labour.


 
The state's hands are far from clean alright. Tho the Church virtually dictated gov't policy in those days. Probably with the consent of the majority of politicans and people. What I wonder tho is how come just so many cruel and sick people ended up running these places? And how come so many of the religious failed so miserably to live up to even the basic notions of Christian love and charity. Beggars belief really.


----------



## Purple

I see the RC Church in the UK is trying to use employment law to avoid financial culpability for the child rapists in their midst. What lovely people.


----------



## Shawady

The Vatican has recalled the Papal Nuncio for "consultations".

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0725/cloyne.html


----------



## Purple

They told him to jump before he was pushed!


----------



## horusd

Shawady said:


> The Vatican has recalled the Papal Nuncio for "consultations".
> 
> http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0725/cloyne.html


 

This might well be a snub to Ireland rather than a recognition of a wrong on their part. Given past form, it wouldn't suprise me if its the clerical equivalent of up yours.


----------



## Duke of Marmalade

horusd said:


> This might well be a snub to Ireland rather than a recognition of a wrong on their part. Given past form, it wouldn't suprise me if its the clerical equivalent of up yours.


That's quite clearly what it is.  As the article says "recall your ambassador" is diplomatic speak for express your displeasure.  It's not simply that he has been asked to fly back to Rome, he is doing that all the time without it constituting a "recall".  A recall is a formal rebuke.


----------



## The_Banker

[broken link removed]

The article in the above link in the IT is about a parish priest critising Enda Kenny for his speech he made in the Dail. It compares him to Hitler.

I think the article simply proves everything that Enda said as correct.


----------



## horusd

The_Banker said:


> [broken link removed]
> 
> The article in the above link in the IT is about a parish priest critising Enda Kenny for his speech he made in the Dail. It compares him to Hitler.
> 
> I think the article simply proves everything that Enda said as correct.


 
I read this today and was left scratching my head. Particularly this piece;

"*Referring to Mr Kenny’s criticisms of the Vatican’s handling of clerical sex abuse, the article stated: “The last European leader to make such a blistering attack on the Pope was the ruthless German dictator Adolf Hitler”.*

Firstly Kenny didn't attack the Pope he attacked the Vatican. Secondly 
this would be the same Vatican that entered a Concordat with Hitler's Reich?


----------



## Guest105

Does this relate to the same article, I guess it is a bit sensational and the most it will do is help sell a few more newspapers. 

http://yfrog.com/kf278gej


----------



## Sunny

horusd said:


> I read this today and was left scratching my head. Particularly this piece;
> 
> "*Referring to Mr Kenny’s criticisms of the Vatican’s handling of clerical sex abuse, the article stated: “The last European leader to make such a blistering attack on the Pope was the ruthless German dictator Adolf Hitler”.*
> 
> Firstly Kenny didn't attack the Pope he attacked the Vatican. Secondly
> this would be the same Vatican that entered a Concordat with Hitler's Reich?


 
I think it is funny that Enda Kenny reminds someone of Hitler. I can actually see it!


----------



## michaelm

I think hEnda was a bit of a patsy, reading a speech that was likely written by another overzealous member of his cabinet.  On the face of it hEnda is facing down (long past) Rome rule, but has fully capitulated to Brussels rule.  IMHO his speech was politically motivated and may ultimately prove to be ill-advised; still it did relegate the fuss about Roscommon A&E in the newsworthy stakes.


----------



## RMCF

Shawady said:


> The Vatican has recalled the Papal Nuncio for "consultations".
> 
> http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0725/cloyne.html




Good riddance to bad rubbish I say.


----------



## Guest105

THE Department of Foreign Affairs has not received any notice that the Papal Nuncio will be leaving Ireland, despite confirmation from Czech officials that he is due to move to Prague shortly.

Read more: http://www.irishexaminer.com/irelan...thout-formal-notice-162644.html#ixzz1TZaqGgQo

Somehow I don't think he will be sadly missed from our shores


----------



## Duke of Marmalade

horusd said:


> Firstly Kenny didn't attack the Pope he attacked the Vatican.


I thought that perhaps the most vicious and ad hominem part of the speech was where he lambasted a quote (which he took out of context) from a 1992 paper by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger. The ironic thing is that Benny was a supporter of Adolf in his youth.


----------



## oldnick

I see that some scumbag priest who has been abusing kids for years -as was well known by his superiors-  got two years for raping a young girl (plus four suspended).

Lucky for Father McGennis he didnt try to steal an ATM -that got some lads in Kerry six years this week.


----------



## horusd

Duke of Marmalade said:


> I thought that perhaps the most vicious and ad hominem part of the speech was where he lambasted a quote (which he took out of context) from a 1992 paper by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger. The ironic thing is that Benny was a supporter of Adolf in his youth.


 

Duke I don't think Kenny needed to add that (mis)quote and I don't think the Pope's record in the Hitler Youth is particularly relevant to this issue. Other than the idiot priest raised the whole Hitler thing. The Vatican did enough to be hanged out to dry on it's own grounds.


----------



## Purple

horusd said:


> Duke I don't think Kenny needed to add that (mis)quote and I don't think the Pope's record in the Hitler Youth is particularly relevant to this issue. Other than the idiot priest raised the whole Hitler thing. The Vatican did enough to be hanged out to dry on it's own grounds.



Agreed.


----------



## Duke of Marmalade

horusd said:


> Other than the idiot priest raised the whole Hitler thing.


That was what was amusing.  Here's this parish priest making a play for promotion by comparing his boss' attacker to Hitler, when the boss was actually a great fan of said Fuhrer.


----------



## bullbars

Duke of Marmalade said:


> That was what was amusing. Here's this parish priest making a play for promotion by comparing his boss' attacker to Hitler, when the boss was actually a great fan of said Fuhrer.


 
You seem to be fixated on this point  At the time he was enrolled in the Hilter youth it was compulsoroy under law. He was then forcibly enrolled as a guard in the Lutwaffe where he deserted. What did you expect him to do, go on a one man crusade against the Nazi regime in the heartland of Nazi fanaticism where he lived??

I'm no fan of the church/ Vatican actions but these claims that he was a "fan of said fuhrer' are illinformed. 

I was an altar boy at one stage; by your logic i'm also a supporter or the churches cover ups now. the hitler youth was comparable to someone joining the boy scouts today.


----------



## Mpsox

Duke of Marmalade said:


> That was what was amusing. Here's this parish priest making a play for promotion by comparing his boss' attacker to Hitler, when the boss was actually a great fan of said Fuhrer.


 
The reality is that 90% of Germans in their 80s and beyond were probably members of some element of the Nazi party. Same probably applies to large chunks of Italy, but that doesn't mean they were supporters of Hitler or Mussolini, it was just the done thing at the time. Your clueless obsession with all things Nazism brings very little to this debate and is getting rather tedious


----------



## Purple

+1 Bullbars


----------



## Duke of Marmalade

bullbars said:


> He enrolled as a guard in the Lutwaffe where he deserted.


A coward as well, are there no depths to this man?


----------



## bullbars

Duke of Marmalade said:


> A coward as well, are there no depths to this man?


 
I've never read such nonsense in such a short sentance given the context of this discussion. He was forced to work as a guard in the luftwaffe at a BMW factory then in hungary where he saw first hand what was happening to the Jewsih people there. (their own government was shipping them out before you take off on another tangent) 
He then deserted and returned to his home in Bavaria. To do so was nearly a death sentance as he lived in the heartland of Nazi Germany, not far from Hitlers retreat at berchtesgaden. if found; those who didn't support the Nazi party and war effort in this area were severely dealt with.

Edit: I note the way you've edited my quoted to say "He enrolled" rather than what I had actually (factually) written :
"He was forcibly enrolled"


----------



## oldnick

bullbars - if you read the Duke's posts you will realise he has several veins of humnour. In one of those veins (I think he has a few) he uses sarcasm to get across a message that covertly says something different from what the casual reader sees.

For example, Duke's post about the Pope's cowardice is mocking those who harp on about the Pope's supposed wartime backrground.


----------



## Duke of Marmalade

_Oldnick_ are you calling me a troll, you devil you?  I wouldn't have taken you for a boy named Sue.


----------



## Guest105

Another report about to be released there don't seem no end to the scandal of child sexual abuse in Ireland.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/aug/29/catholic-clergy-children-donegal-report


----------



## onq

I have previously called for a "root and branch" examination of every parish, every Diocese and Archidiocese instead of this drip feed of information.

These "reports" are clearly being managed for the benefit of the Catholic Church.

This is a continuation of Bertie Ahern's Agenda and is a disgrace.


----------



## Firefly

cashier said:


> Another report about to be released there don't seem no end to the scandal of child sexual abuse in Ireland.
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/aug/29/catholic-clergy-children-donegal-report



You'd have to wonder why so many of us (not me any longer I can tell you)

(1) still go to a Catholic church
(2) put money in the collection box.


----------



## oldnick

Well, according to my own (good decent Proddy) church there has been a small but growing number of lapsed RCs who now attend- which is more than i do. 

Frankly, I can't understand why the CofI or other churches don't properly advertise themselves whether in the papers or ,if short of money, on those notices outside the churches - "your child is safe here"  " No Popery or buggery here" or other catchy slogans.


----------



## onq

Paedophiles are known to seek positions of employment that place them in positions of authority or proximity  regarding kids.
I doubt that any religion that requires its  ministers to practice chastity and will be immune from this problem.

In Éire fadó, parents pushed their into jobs they were unsuited for, such as ordinary red-blooded young men becoming chaste priests, or big ignorant bullies joining the Gardaí.
Bear in mind that this would be the fifties and sixties, where such stereotypes would have held true.

The ranks of "genuine" paedophiles were bolstered by normal men who feared slaking their lust with adults in case they reported the breach of trust and were believed by their community.
They chose instead to prey on children whom they thought would be easier to control and discredit.

Its quite a cynical, manipulative sort of approach to preying on the most vulnerable.


----------



## Sunny

Firefly said:


> You'd have to wonder why so many of us (not me any longer I can tell you)
> 
> (1) still go to a Catholic church
> (2) put money in the collection box.



I dont either but I know plenty of good people that do. I refuse to condemn them for it. The ordinary catholics are not to blame for the disgusting failure of the Church just like bank customers are not responsible for the failure of banks and voters are not responsible for the failures of politicians.


----------



## onq

A picture is painted of utter cluelessness on a national scale - how can that be supported?

The people who knew about the abuse and kept silent, the police who sat on the reports from the health boards and took no action, and the "ordinary catholics", those members of the public who dismissed the children's cries for help were all members of the Catholic Church.

They were directly responsible, and those who knew only rumour of the abuse and did nothing were only slightly absolved from blame.
It was such a serious allegation that it should have been investigated and the evasions of the priests seen for what they were - lies.

Even a brief review of the history of the Catholic Church reveals an inward turned Patriarchy mired in corruption, vice, cruelty, politics, murder and genocide.
Such people, like any we raise into positions of authority, need watching, not exalting or excusing.


----------



## Sunny

Give me a break. The 80 year old woman going to mass was not covering up sexual assault of children just like 99% of the church going population. I got the end of the Christian brothers experience and while nothing serious happened me, I can for 100% state state that I was taught my a pedophile. I dont blame my patents for this. They had no way to know. The ******* died shortly after but I hate to think of the people he taught before me.


----------



## Birroc

Sunny said:


> I dont either but I know plenty of good people that do. I refuse to condemn them for it. The ordinary catholics are not to blame for the disgusting failure of the Church just like bank customers are not responsible for the failure of banks and voters are not responsible for the failures of politicians.


 
Yes but shouldn't the ordinary catholics be sending a message to the vatican in the only language they respect, i.e. footfall + cash, by abstaining from mass? Thus forcing the church to sit up and take notice and maybe, just maybe implement some real reform. 

If it was a non-religious organisation there is no way ordinary people would continue to attend meetings and donate money.


----------



## onq

Sunny said:


> Give me a break. The 80 year old woman going to mass was not covering up sexual assault of children just like 99% of the church going population. I got the end of the Christian brothers experience and while nothing serious happened me, I can for 100% state state that I was taught my a pedophile. I dont blame my patents for this. They had no way to know. The ******* died shortly after but I hate to think of the people he taught before me.



Never mind the 80 year old woman [and your percentages are wayyyy off if the implications of the SAVI Report are to be believed].
What did *you* do about the teacher - did you report him to the authorities, and if not, why not?


----------



## onq

Birroc said:


> Yes but shouldn't the ordinary catholics be sending a message to the vatican in the only language they respect, i.e. footfall + cash, by abstaining from mass? Thus forcing the church to sit up and take notice and maybe, just maybe implement some real reform.


 Of course, and they are - to coin a phrase - "staying away in droves".
Did you not read recently about the levy the church was considering charging to help support the Dublin Diocese in its hour of need?


> If it was a non-religious organisation there is no way ordinary people would continue to attend meetings and donate money.


It seems clear that they aren't doing that any more.
The was a steady drift away from the Church in the 'seventies, 'eighties and 'nineties.
This turned into a torrent in the noughties following the revelations of the extent of the paedophilia in the church.


----------



## oldnick

Sadly too many "ordinary decent " Catholics think that this is all a temporary aberration and they seem not to realise that by actually attending official RC churches they are lending support to this disgusting organisation.

If these people really believe in God, the Christian message and the actual tenets of their own brand of Christianity then surely it's not that difficult to go, with fellow worshippers, and hire their own places of worship.

Continuing to attend the official churches and not actively protesting against what is happening is little better than the denial/cover-up tactics of the hierachy.

Whuilst attendance in city churches may be down I notice masses of cars outside the rural ones on Sundays -too many Irish Catholics turning a blind eye to what is happening.


----------



## Firefly

Sunny said:


> Give me a break. The 80 year old woman going to mass was not covering up sexual assault of children just like 99% of the church going population. I got the end of the Christian brothers experience and while nothing serious happened me, I can for 100% state state that I was taught my a pedophile. I dont blame my patents for this. They had no way to know. The ******* died shortly after but I hate to think of the people he taught before me.




Hi Sunny,

Not to sensationalise it but we are talking about the act and coverup of raping innocent children by an organisation who pontificates from the pulpit on the teachings of Christ. Imagine for a second how you would feel if it happened to one of your children and you then see your neighbours heading to mass in the same church. How would you feel?

The only way this will be addressed is if people stop going to mass and more importantly stop putting money into the collection box (nothing like money to concentrate the mind).

Oldnick. I've raised "going proddy" with my wife and it's something we certainly won't be ruling out. We both pray but I just find it very difficult to enter a RCC even for celebrations like weddings.


----------



## Firefly

oldnick said:


> Sadly too many "ordinary decent " Catholics think that this is all a temporary aberration and they seem not to realise that by actually attending official RC churches they are lending support to this disgusting organisation.
> 
> If these people really believe in God, the Christian message and the actual tenets of their own brand of Christianity then surely it's not that difficult to go, with fellow worshippers, and hire their own places of worship.
> 
> Continuing to attend the official churches and not actively protesting against what is happening is little better than the denial/cover-up tactics of the hierachy.
> 
> Whuilst attendance in city churches may be down I notice masses of cars outside the rural ones on Sundays -too many Irish Catholics turning a blind eye to what is happening.



A big plus one to this oldnick


----------



## Teatime

oldnick said:


> continuing to attend the official churches and not actively protesting against what is happening is little better than the denial/cover-up tactics of the hierachy.
> 
> Whilst attendance in city churches may be down i notice masses of cars outside the rural ones on sundays -too many irish catholics turning a blind eye to what is happening.



+1


----------



## T McGibney

oldnick said:


> Sadly too many "ordinary decent " Catholics think that this is all a temporary aberration and they seem not to realise that by actually attending official RC churches they are lending support to this disgusting organisation.
> 
> If these people really believe in God, the Christian message and the actual tenets of their own brand of Christianity then surely it's not that difficult to go, with fellow worshippers, and hire their own places of worship.
> 
> Continuing to attend the official churches and not actively protesting against what is happening is little better than the denial/cover-up tactics of the hierachy.
> 
> Whuilst attendance in city churches may be down I notice masses of cars outside the rural ones on Sundays -too many Irish Catholics turning a blind eye to what is happening.



Ludicrous stuff.

The Irish State was just as guilty as the Irish Catholic Church in facilitating child abusers and covering up for them.  Are you still paying your taxes?


----------



## onq

T McGibney said:


> Ludicrous stuff.
> 
> The Irish State was just as guilty as the Irish Catholic Church in facilitating child abusers and covering up for them.  Are you still paying your taxes?



So far, but I like where you're going with this.


----------



## Mpsox

oldnick said:


> Sadly too many "ordinary decent " Catholics think that this is all a temporary aberration and they seem not to realise that by actually attending official RC churches they are lending support to this disgusting organisation.
> 
> If these people really believe in God, the Christian message and the actual tenets of their own brand of Christianity then surely it's not that difficult to go, with fellow worshippers, and hire their own places of worship.
> 
> Continuing to attend the official churches and not actively protesting against what is happening is little better than the denial/cover-up tactics of the hierachy.
> 
> Whuilst attendance in city churches may be down I notice masses of cars outside the rural ones on Sundays -too many Irish Catholics turning a blind eye to what is happening.


 
Speaking as someone who attends mass, with my family, every Sunday I take grave offence at your post. it all comes down to how you define the Catholic chruch. If you define it as the clergy and the leadership of the church who abused/covered up then I would agree with you. However, if you define it (as i do) as a community of people, who come together in their own place of worship who have been let down by a small number of priests (and it is a small number) and their leadership, then you get a very different view.

I come from the diocese of Cloyne, I went to school in one of the boarding schools mentioned in the Murphy report, reason enough you might guess to react like you did. But I also know the Parish priest, mentioned in the Murphy report, who reported an abuser to the bishop, chased the bsishop to find out when the diocessan investigators were coming and then when nothing was happening, went to the authorites. Why should I turn my back on him.?

Last Sunday, I went to Mass with my family and sat in peace and quiet for an hour (or at least until my 7 month old decided to join in with the choir), listened to some lovely music. After lunch we went to the Parish fun day, (all ran by the parishoners) and won 2 bottles of wine and a goldfish. Why on earth, by doing all of those things, do you think I, or anyone else involved, was I lending support to child abuse?. 

If I give money to the Vincent de Paul, am I lending support to child abuse?. If I give money to Trocaire, am I lending support to child abuse? If I sit down with my cousin, a Christian Brother, for lunch, as I did last week, am I lending support to child abuse. If I sit down with my cousin, a Rev Mother, for lunch (and who, incidentally, boycotted mass on the day that women in Cork asked for people to do so) am I lending support to child abuse?

I've said this before on here and I'll say it again, my own belief is that abusers should be defrocked and excommunicated, and the same applies to the fools who willingly and deliberately covered it up. And I would walk out of mass if I found one of them saying it. But why should I turn my back on the rest?


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## Birroc

Mpsox said:


> If you define it as the clergy and the leadership of the church who abused/covered up then I would agree with you. However, if you define it (as i do) as a community of people, who come together in their own place of worship who have been let down by a small number of priests (and it is a small number) and their leadership, then you get a very different view.



This point always bothers me. It was not a 'small number of priests' in my eyes because there is zero evidence in the many decades of abuse where the so-called 'good' priests initiated internal agitation to stop the abuse. There were a small number of actual abusers but the vast majority of the other priests turned a blind eye. And they all knew there was an abuse problem. I have never understood why all these 'good' men did nothing and turned a blind eye but by doing nothing they were complicit given their role in society. Any non-religious organisation would have experienced internal protests and actions. I can only guess that they stayed quiet fearing a loss of career/earnings.


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## Firefly

Mpsox said:


> Speaking as someone who attends mass, with my family, every Sunday I take grave offence at your post. it all comes down to how you define the Catholic chruch. If you define it as the clergy and the leadership of the church who abused/covered up then I would agree with you. However, if you define it (as i do) as a community of people, who come together in their own place of worship who have been let down by a small number of priests (and it is a small number) and their leadership, then you get a very different view.



Hi Mpsox,

Let me ask you this...What did the "good" priests do when relevations of abuse came out? 
Did they form a group and march to Rome? 
Did they "go on strike" with placards outside their parish priests houses? 
Did they apologise from the pulpit? 
Did they arrange councilling / offer their help in any way? 

The truth is that most did nothing. That's why I'm so angry.


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## T McGibney

Birroc said:


> This point always bothers me. It was not a 'small number of priests' in my eyes because there is zero evidence in the many decades of abuse where the so-called 'good' priests initiated internal agitation to stop the abuse. There were a small number of actual abusers but the vast majority of the other priests turned a blind eye. And they all knew there was an abuse problem. I have never understood why all these 'good' men did nothing and turned a blind eye but by doing nothing they were complicit given their role in society. Any non-religious organisation would have experienced internal protests and actions. I can only guess that they stayed quiet fearing a loss of career/earnings.



You miss the point that at no stage was the Irish child abuse scandal confined to the Church. 

The dogs on the street in 1970s Ireland knew that institutionalised child abuse was rampant. I remember in the 70s as a small child on my first visit to Croke Park being amazed by the Artane Boys Band, and being told that 'those poor boys live in a horrible place and are treated very badly'. Yet the abuse in Artane and elsewhere continued for years after that. 

Yet practically everybody (not just priests) turned a blind eye. The notion that in that era 'Any non-religious organisation would have experienced internal protests and actions' is laughable.


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## T McGibney

Firefly said:


> Hi Mpsox,
> 
> Let me ask you this...What did the "good" priests do when relevations of abuse came out?
> Did they form a group and march to Rome?
> Did they "go on strike" with placards outside their parish priests houses?
> Did they apologise from the pulpit?
> Did they arrange councilling / offer their help in any way?
> 
> The truth is that most did nothing. That's why I'm so angry.



Point taken. Now please tell us what you have done about the fact that the State, of which you are a citizen and taxpayer, has similiarly abused and facilitated the abuse of children. Have you marched to Dublin? Have you 'gone on strike'? Have you apologised? Have you offered help to victims? If you have, fair play to you, you have a right to be angry that others have not done the same as you.


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## oldnick

Mpsox - *You* take grave offence at my post ?? 
I'm not sure practising Roman Catholics should presently be the ones to take offence at the words of others concerning this whole subject. 
The only ones you,Madam, should be offended by are the leaders of your organisation.

You -along with your fellow parishioners, your clerical cousins and nearly all of the clergy (almost none of whom have resigned in disgust) just don't get it do you ? 

You may  participate in all the activties at the church-owned establishments , rather than organise your own places of worship/social activities.
You may continue close ties with your priest and nun cousins who, of course knew or suspected nothing -good people,I'm sure, like all nuns and Christian Brothers.

But unless you and your fellow Rc members make a real protest then the evidence so far is that the disgraceful attitude of your leadership will continue.

*Mc Gibney* - you ask a question that proves my point...
- NO i would not pay taxes and I would vigorously protest any govnt if it continued to behave as the then govnts did years ago as regards child abuse and the cover up.
(Not being an RC I was unaware of what was happening in that branch of Christianity)
The "state" has changed in its attitude to the RC Church. Has , really, the RC shown any major change ?
 --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Probably this is too charged a subject to discuss in this thread without emotions getting the better of us. 
I find any defence of the RC church in this matter too repellent, no matter how sincere the defender may be.


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## T McGibney

oldnick said:


> *Mc Gibney* - you ask a question that proves my point...
> - NO i would not pay taxes and I would vigorously protest any govnt if it continued to behave as the then govnts did years ago as regards child abuse and the cover up.



With respect this is self-serving baloney. 


[broken link removed]
"Brian Cowen has admitted this evening that at this stage he does not  know how many children have died in State care in the past ten years.
One  weekend report suggested as many as 200 children have died in State  care, but the HSE says it will be the end of next month before it has a  complete list."




ps please don't address me by my surname. It comes across as rude.


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## Firefly

T McGibney said:


> Point taken. Now please tell us what you have done about the fact that the State, of which you are a citizen and taxpayer, has similiarly abused and facilitated the abuse of children. Have you marched to Dublin? Have you 'gone on strike'? Have you apologised? Have you offered help to victims? If you have, fair play to you, you have a right to be angry that others have not done the same as you.



You're not even close to comparing like for like. A family member works for the HSE with children in state care. The parents are often neglectful and abusive and themselves on drugs. They couldn't care about their kids. The kids are often wild and uncontrollable. They're drunk and on drugs all the time. They ultimately end up taking their own lives. All very tragic and the state, for sure, could do more to help. But, this is a lot different than actively sourcing and raping innocent kids and covering up same, all the while telling us sinners that we should repent.


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## oldnick

so sorry mr mcgibney/thomas/tommy -I mustn't be rude ,but you can continue to describe to my posts as "ludicrous stuff" ," baloney".


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## T McGibney

Firefly said:


> You're not even close to comparing like for like. A family member works for the HSE with children in state care. The parents are often neglectful and abusive and themselves on drugs. They couldn't care about their kids. The kids are often wild and uncontrollable. They're drunk and on drugs all the time. They ultimately end up taking their own lives. All very tragic and the state, for sure, could do more to help. But, this is a lot different than actively sourcing and raping innocent kids and covering up same, all the while telling us sinners that we should repent.



I think you're still missing the point. Much of the institutional abuse that was committed by Catholic Church personnel was actively facilitated and covered up by the State. Ditto the parallel obscenities of the Magdalen Laundries, the Cavan Orphanage Fire amongst others. The State acknowledged this by agreeing to foot the bill for a substantial portion of the Redress Fund.

Last year's debate about the numbers of children who have more recently died in State care is a different issue, but the fact that the HSE could not or did not want to provide the details to the Taoiseach as late as May 2010 is shocking.


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## Firefly

T McGibney said:


> I think you're still missing the point. Much of the institutional abuse that was committed by Catholic Church personnel was actively facilitated and covered up by the State. Ditto the parallel obscenities of the Magdalen Laundries, the Cavan Orphanage Fire amongst others. The State acknowledged this by agreeing to foot the bill for a substantial portion of the Redress Fund.



I see where you are coming from now. Having said that the state, as you say, did acknowlege their part and did pay over money. The church in comparison did nothing. Those in the State who knew this was going on were equally to blame. They did turn a blind eye, and probably told themselves that things weren't as bad as they were. 



T McGibney said:


> Last year's debate about the numbers of children who have more recently died in State care is a different issue, but the fact that the HSE could not or did not want to provide the details to the Taoiseach as late as May 2010 is shocking.



I agree...it is shocking. Surely, those non-managers in the HSE with this knowledge should have led the way and protested? Perhaps the public would have gotten behind it. It still, for the reasons (see previous post) doesn't come close to the crimes committed by the priests.


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## Mpsox

oldnick said:


> Mpsox - *You* take grave offence at my post ??
> I'm not sure practising Roman Catholics should presently be the ones to take offence at the words of others concerning this whole subject.
> The only ones you,Madam, should be offended by are the leaders of your organisation.
> 
> You -along with your fellow parishioners, your clerical cousins and nearly all of the clergy (almost none of whom have resigned in disgust) just don't get it do you ?
> 
> You may participate in all the activties at the church-owned establishments , rather than organise your own places of worship/social activities.
> You may continue close ties with your priest and nun cousins who, of course knew or suspected nothing -good people,I'm sure, like all nuns and Christian Brothers.
> 
> But unless you and your fellow Rc members make a real protest then the evidence so far is that the disgraceful attitude of your leadership will continue.
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Probably this is too charged a subject to discuss in this thread without emotions getting the better of us.
> I find any defence of the RC church in this matter too repellent, no matter how sincere the defender may be.


 
Interesting how you thought I was a woman, why did you think that? (I'm not by the way)

I do have my own organised place of worship and social activites, it's called the Catholic church and is owned by the members, not by Rome, not by the diocese or by anyone else. 

Why should other priest resign in disgust?, after all, if your boss turned out to be a paedophile would you quit? 

Walking away from something is the cowards way out, it allows those who lead to think they've won. It is far better to try and change things from the inside and that is happening. It won't happen overnight, nothing does, it doesn't mean to say that some (like O'Callaghan in Cloyne) will oppose it, they will, but it doesn't mean to say things can't change. 

I'm learning to swim at the minute, wonder if I should be doing that given the amount of abuse that was done by a small group of swimming instructors?

My smallie started school this week, wonder if I should let her go given that the local child abuser in my village when i was growing up was the lay married headmaster?


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## Mpsox

Firefly said:


> Hi Mpsox,
> 
> Let me ask you this...What did the "good" priests do when relevations of abuse came out?
> Did they form a group and march to Rome?
> Did they "go on strike" with placards outside their parish priests houses?
> Did they apologise from the pulpit?
> Did they arrange councilling / offer their help in any way?
> 
> The truth is that most did nothing. That's why I'm so angry.


 
In some cases they reported it to the authorties ( and in some of those cases got no support) as outlined in the various reports

yes they did apologise and actually, yes, in many cases they did arrange councilling. The problem many priests had was lack of support from on high, bad leadership was the root cause of many of the issues. 

You're right to be angry, I'm angry too over what happened and how it was handled.


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## Firefly

Mpsox said:


> I Why should other priest resign in disgust?, after all, if your boss turned out to be a paedophile would you quit?



I wouldn't. However, if lots of other managers and co-workers were and they were moved from branch to branch to conceal this and allow it to foster then I would. 



Mpsox said:


> Walking away from something is the cowards way out, it allows those who lead to think they've won. It is far better to try and change things from the inside and that is happening. It won't happen overnight, nothing does, it doesn't mean to say that some (like O'Callaghan in Cloyne) will oppose it, they will, but it doesn't mean to say things can't change.



It's not happening nearly fast enough nor transparent enough for the public to have faith in the church.


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## The_Banker

Mpsox said:


> Interesting how you thought I was a woman, why did you think that? (I'm not by the way)
> 
> I do have my own organised place of worship and social activites, *it's called the Catholic church and is owned by the members, not by Rome, not by the diocese or by anyone else. *
> 
> Why should other priest resign in disgust?, after all, if your boss turned out to be a paedophile would you quit?
> 
> Walking away from something is the cowards way out, it allows those who lead to think they've won. It is far better to try and change things from the inside and that is happening. It won't happen overnight, nothing does, it doesn't mean to say that some (like O'Callaghan in Cloyne) will oppose it, they will, but it doesn't mean to say things can't change.
> 
> I'm learning to swim at the minute, wonder if I should be doing that given the amount of abuse that was done by a small group of swimming instructors?
> 
> My smallie started school this week, wonder if I should let her go given that the local child abuser in my village when i was growing up was the lay married headmaster?


 

Maybe you should tell Rome that. 
What you say may be correct in theory. It certainly isnt in practice.


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## Firefly

The_Banker said:


> Maybe you should tell Rome that.
> What you say may be correct in theory. It certainly isnt in practice.



+1. How about stopping the funds heading to Rome and see how it pans out?


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## Mpsox

Firefly said:


> .
> 
> It's not happening nearly fast enough nor transparent enough for the public to have faith in the church.


 
In fairness, I think a lot has happened, at least at local level, the child protection guidelines for example and each parish having a team of lay people who oversee them. A lot of that is transparrent (or at least where I live) because it's spelt out very clearly to anyone who goes to chirch. For example, we were all given copies of those guidelines and they are issued any time they change.

To me, the bigger issue is change further up the line, in particuler in Rome, Magee is an example of that, dropped into Cloyne without ever having really worked on the ground or in a parish and in effect, being a bit instituionalised.

I think you will see more of this sort of thing happening as well over the coming years
[broken link removed]


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## Birroc

Mpsox said:


> Walking away from something is the cowards way out, it allows those who lead to think they've won. It is far better to try and change things from the inside and that is happening.


 
Wake up. Thats the excuse Sean Brady came out with instead of resigning. He was content to learn all about Brendan's Smyth's reign of terror and subsequently imposed an oath of secrecy on the abused children *35 years ago. *Smyth went on to ruin many other lives. Brady became a cardinal and somehow still is. He didn't walk away but in those 35 years what did this vile man do to stop the abuse? Cowards indeed! His reason for not resigning in 2010 was that he was merely taking notes, the work-to-rule excuse and that he would make real reform from within, he's very quiet since.

Dispicable man.
Dispicable organisation.


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## Birroc

T McGibney said:


> I think you're still missing the point. Much of the institutional abuse that was committed by Catholic Church personnel was actively facilitated and covered up by the State. Ditto the parallel obscenities of the Magdalen Laundries, the Cavan Orphanage Fire amongst others. The State acknowledged this by agreeing to foot the bill for a substantial portion of the Redress Fund.


 
I have always felt that the State did a bad deal in terms of the Redress Fund. I think most people would put the majority of the blame on the religious orders running the institutions and committing the abuse. The State were certainly negligent in protecting the children but the religious orders held all the power in those places and those times.

Not sure who exactly made the deal but if we were renegotiating today, it would be a different story.


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## horusd

In a sense the Cloyne report and others are merely the deathknells of a dying Church. People don't expect the Church to change, or it to have a significant role in their lives Many have moved on and left it behind.  What will replace it? That's an interesting question, but I have no doubt that something will. Spirituality or meaning have deep significance for most, if not all people. So we're not going to turn atheists anytime soon I think. But Ireland is definitely in the post-catholic phase.


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## Guest105

wrong thread


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