# Euro - A flawed concept?



## True Blue (13 Jan 2004)

Is the euro and the notion of one currency for europe flawed?

_Title edited by RainyDay_


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## <A HREF=http://pub145.ezboard.com/baskaboutmoney.s (13 Jan 2004)

The € is not a notion - it's a reality. 

Surely you might just as well say is the concept of a single currency for all  50 states of the US a flawed concept?

Maybe you could set out your own arguments on the topic and allow others to respond?


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## daltonr (13 Jan 2004)

True Blue,

Do you know of anything that's perfect?

It's not a question of whether there are flaws/weaknesses.
It's a question of whether the benefits of a single currency 
out weigh the drawbacks (i.e. Losing control over interest rates, the ability to have the value of our currency fluctuate based specifically on how our economy is doing and not some overall view of the Eurozone as a whole).

I have no strong opinion one way or the other on that, I don't think anyone really knows for sure yet.

-Rd


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## True Blue (13 Jan 2004)

Here’s why I think the Euro is going to fail and fail miserable it will.

1. Interest rates.

No country in the Eurozone has complete control of their interest rates. This is bad for inflation, competitiveness and hence job creation. What will the outcome be if the ECB starts hiking up the interest rates? Surely this would not benefit all countries.

2. Socialism.

The powers to be in the Eurozone (France and Germany) are socialist states with power hungry unions, inflated costs of living and suffocating red tape and bureaucracy. The French and German’s have already broken their promises before (with deficits) and they’ll do it again. The French  are extremely hell bent on their own interests and no one else’s unless of course it benefits them. For instance, the French anti-war stance had nothing to do with ‘saving’ Iraqi people but maintaining the status quote when it came to their oil, business and arms contracts with Sadam. If the Euro begins to flounder they’ll twist the rules to suit themselves. For example, when Ireland was voting the second time around for the nice treated the Germans and French were drawing up final drafts to chuck us out if we had refused the second time.  Another example would be eastern European states supporting the US in the Iraqi war. They were told, publicly and in no uncertain terms, that their support for the US was a bad thing and could see them excluded from membership. If that’s not bullying I don’t know what is. This sort of behaviour will lead to a ‘four legs good, two legs bad’ syndrome (Animal farm George Orwell?). 

3. We are not that important!

Contrary to popular opinion us Irish are, …er, not that important. We are a small country with a population tipping 4 million. Look, I am proud to be Irish and we have achieved some great things but I think it’s gone to our heads. We are how in the presidency of the EU. Providing we do what the big boys tell us to do we’ll be fine. Step out of line and feel the crack of the whip. This government knows it can’t make any real changes/decisons unless bureaucrats, ‘officials’ and vested interests give the go ahead. This means that the presidency is nothing but a puppet. Those in real control  are unaccountable which will lead to mistakes being made and rampant corruption – needless to say not good for business.


4. Economy:

Our economy is more in tune with the British and American economies and not the Europeans.

In relation to some points made by other posters:
‘Surely you might just as well say is the concept of a single currency for all 50 states of the US a flawed concept?’

-America has a common history and culture much more intwined than EU states. Their currency has worked the jury is still out on ours.

‘Do you know of anything that's perfect?’

-I’m perfect! No, I’m only joking. To answer your question, I know of nothing that’s perfect but I know that the euro is deeply flawed. Or to be more precise it’s the actual eurozone countries that are flawed.


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## <A HREF=http://pub145.ezboard.com/baskaboutmoney.s (13 Jan 2004)

> 2. Socialism.



I thought that most of the European national Governments were centre right these days?



> 4. Economy:
> 
> Our economy is more in tune with the British and American economies and not the Europeans.



How so?


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## Contango10 (13 Jan 2004)

Note that a weak euro can be GOOD for the eurozone economy.

The current very strong euro against the dollar will hurt euro-based exporters.

Contango10


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## Tommy (13 Jan 2004)

> The powers to be in the Eurozone (France and Germany) are socialist states with... inflated costs of living



Its not 24 hours since someone on these pages complained bitterly that prices are much higher here than in Germany :eek


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## newkie (14 Jan 2004)

*a US perspective*

Well I think Contango10 mentioned an interesting point.  What I keep seeing reading Irish e-news is worry about the raising euro making it too expensive for the US to do business in Ireland.  Its a funny situation, on one hand you should wish for the Euro to climb but unfortunately we're in this pickle where the US has all this influence making the raise undesirable for the economy.  So today [broken link removed] the ECB is looking at curbing this trend and calling these wild fluctuations "unwelcome".

As a US outsider I can certainly understand the economics of why the raise is undesirable.  I'm over here wishing the dollar will rise so I can move USD over to Euro (and after that feck the dollar).  But I don't know what to do, I think if I wait I'll be screwed.  But ultimately, after this administration of the next the dollar has to recover... its an inevitability that the US will recover unless we are to believe that the US is really at a cusp of going downhill (and with all the recent drama I can see how people might take that perspective although they are probably fooling themselves).

Since we sold our house and decided to move I've seen the rate go from 1.17 to almost 1.30 in just a few months.  This is crazy!  The craziest part is that the administration which has caused the weak dollar will probably be reelected (hangs head in shame).  So the best I can come up with is to hedge our bets and move 50% now and 50% when its needed (about 2 years) and hope for the best.  That puts us in neutral situation where we equally get screwed and benefit.... I hope!


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## <A HREF=http://pub145.ezboard.com/baskaboutmoney.s (14 Jan 2004)

*Re: a US perspective*

I made the point on another topic that in macroeconomics few things, including a strong or weak currency, are intrinsically "good" or "bad" but involve many attendant and sometimes conflicting trade offs. It's all a balancing act...

Then again, macroeconomics never was my forté...


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## heinbloed (14 Jan 2004)

*powerhungry unions in france and germany*

Yesterday the unions of Germany reported a loss of 300.000 members for the last year , the highest loss for all times . The governing " socialists " reported as well a dramatic loss in members , back to their member numbers
of 1963 .
Power greedy you might call them , but without sense and support ....


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## True Blue (14 Jan 2004)

*Re: euro flawed or what?*

Ummm....

Centre right in all but name. Just take a look at their spending habits and the social programs they’ve initiated. Our own government has being branded ‘right wing’ a la carte Margaret Thatcher style. Yeah right, this is a government that has capitulated to unions, spends spends spends and thinks not of signing over our rights to EU bureaucrats.

Union power is most certainly not on the wane in the EU. Have people froggy, sorry foggy memories? The French favorite pastime is to go on strike.

Our economy is linked into the US and UK whether we like it or not. We seem to have the same cyclic economic performance as those above mentioned countries. After 9-11 when the US economy dipped so did ours. We, like the British, have the highest home ownership in EU mainly with variable rate mortgages. (Watch out for those ECB controlled interest rates!)

And finally, I most certainly won’t hang my head in shame if Bush gets voted in again. 
Cheers,

Blue


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## newkie1 (15 Jan 2004)

*Sorry to go off-topic but...*

Blue, care to elaborate?  Its that kind of attitude that confounds me endlessly.  I read these reports about how Bush is a shoe-in and his approval rating and I have to wonder who the _feck_ are these people and what are they thinking?  Sure Gore was a robot but I doubt the US economy would be in the shambles it is, despite 9/11, if he were elected... oh wait, _he was_.  Democracy?  Yeah right, its a polyarchy safely out of the hands of the public "animal" but that's another story.

Perhaps I have simply "come of age" and had my first bitter pill in seeing my government act on its own accord against world opinion and mine.  That is to say, the government moved away from anything resembling intelligence towards a full frontal lobotomy.  For over 60 years American foreign policy was a carefully orchestrated house of cards starting with the creation of the UN.  And single-handedly this president destroyed that in one swift stroke.  My problem with Bush is not Iraq, but his dim-witted approach to foreign policy which thus affects the economy which in turn affect the currency exchange rate which ultimately pisses me off (see, I _did_ manage to bring this full-circle)!

So here we have a president with the IQ of a turnip, controlled by oil and old money, surrounded by idiot hawks, no regard to foreign policy (which is 90% of the presidents real power, domestic power really lies in the senate) and this guy is a shoe-in?  He's been to Europe what, three times?  I don't know, it makes me wonder what the hell is going on in the other 49 states.  I have to assume that most of my country is filled with buck-toothed, inbred red-necks with full sized American flags waving proudly from their pickup trucks emblazoned with bumper stickers reading "don't tread on me".  The same people whom like Bud, pro-wrestling, reality TV shows, and think Ireland is a part of the UK.  You want _that_ reelected?  Because Bush is one of them, probably near the bottom of the barrel actually, which is why the idiots love him.. because they _can relate to him!_  But, confound it, this is not the type of person to choose as the single representative the US presents to the rest of the world.  We should choose the best, but instead we have...  Bush.

_Please_ read this article fully, it is most enlightening: msnbc.msn.com/id/3068616/


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## True Blue (15 Jan 2004)

*Re: Sorry to go off-topic but...*

1. A majority voted Bush in. Get over it.


2. ‘…..house of cards starting with the creation of the UN. And single-handedly this president destroyed that in one swift stroke’

I wish that were true. You complain about democracy yet you want to single handedly give the UN control of American foreign policy? The UN is one massive undemocratic, bias, unaccountable organization a bit like the Democrat party and the EU. The UN is not there to prevent wars and ensure fair play and equality. It is there to be manipulated for self interests and tyranny, note: France and The West Coast of Africa, Russia and Chechnya, China and Taiwan (incidentally, the UN doesn’t even recognize Taiwan. It’s a but like area 51)

3. ‘…. a president with the IQ of a turnip, controlled by oil and old money,….’

Actaully the majority of people that support Bush financially are middle class Americans and not the big ‘multi nashnulls’ oil com’nies. Michael moore for instance is Bush’s best friend, the more he critises  Bush (with lies and incomplete facts) the more middle America becomes infuriated and switch to supporting Bush. Also, your name calling doesn’t change a thing. If the majority of Black people voted for Bush would you ridicule them and call them derogatory names? 

Bush was right to go to war and finish off an incomplete job, thanks to the UN. So what if the French, Russians, Germans and Chinese didn’t support America? plenty of other countries did.

Roll on Nov ’04. Get it on!!

Oh you are right stick to the point.


Turez Bluez

www.nationalreview.com/


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## N0elC (15 Jan 2004)

*Re: Sorry to go off-topic but...*

True Blue,

Interesting to see this [broken link removed] article on your weblink.

I think that, for many Irish people, pretty much sums up the reasons that so many of us are uncomfortable with the governance of President Bush and the GOP.


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## rainyday (15 Jan 2004)

*Re: Sorry to go off-topic but...*



> 1. A majority voted Bush in. Get over it.


No -they didn't. More US voters voted for Gore. A majority of the Bush-supporter-populated Supreme Court and some ethnic cleansing of the Florida electoral register put Bush in power.


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## True Blue (15 Jan 2004)

*Re: Sorry to go off-topic but...*

'Interesting to see this anti-Irish article on your weblink'


One guy writes a so-called 'anti-Irish' view and your willing to lambaste Bush and the GOP?! I have read plenty of articles on that site that are pro-Irish.

While I don't agree with all of the article myself I do understand that the author is trying to tell us that we are in for a long haul when it comes to fighting terrorism. Hence the mess of the Northern Ireland peace process.

'No -they didn't. More US voters voted for Gore. ....'

Yes they did. Bush won on the college vote. It was the democrats that tried to use the race card and thankfully didn't succeed. Where did you come up with this ethnic cleansing idea, it's astounding, methinks you reading to much of Michael Moore!

Could people please stick to the subject of my original posting?

Blue.


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## Contango10 (15 Jan 2004)

*successful currency*

One way to measure the success of a currency is to check whether it is holding its value.  Well, eurozone inflation is about 2% so, yes, the euro is not losing value too fast.

Too high inflation is what weakens and debases currencies.

Also, the euro is used, day in, day out, by 300m people.  If that isn't success, the what is???

Yes, EMU members have lost control over interest rates and exchange rates.  But the euro also brings gains to members, i.e. for trade and price transparency.

Contango10


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## rainyday (15 Jan 2004)

*Re: Sorry to go off-topic but...*



> Where did you come up with this ethnic cleansing idea, it's astounding, methinks you reading to much of Michael Moore!


Yes, it really was astounding. Read all about it in this article [broken link removed] - Far more detailed than Moore's little investigation.




> Could people please stick to the subject of my original posting?


Don't bring up other issues if you don't expect to be challenged on them.


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## Rodders (15 Jan 2004)

*re: sorry to go off topic but....!*

Hi folks,

Please tell me that True Blue is extracting the mick here!

Amongst other statements made, I find it interesting to see that Mr. Chirac and his Government is regarded as  socialist!! :rolleyes 

I see this particular viewpoint is riddled with throwaway one liners that passes for commentary which is a little sad considering it would have been interesting to have a sensible debate on the Euro issue.

If True Blue is for real (or perhaps surreal?) then all I can say is welcome to this quadrant of the galaxy. Beep!

And as for Dubya, the less said the better methinks!

Regards,

Rodders.


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## True Blue (16 Jan 2004)

*Re: re: sorry to go off topic but....!*

Rainyday :- I find the author of your link dubious ( he writes for the Observer! – enough said ) but  I suppose we’ll just have to agree to disagree This is not the time or the place though.. I brought up Bush because someone else did in another posting (Newkie I think) 

Rodders: For one who’s calling for a sensible debate on the Euro I’ve noticed you didn’t offer anything on the topic.  Please go back and read my other postings with regards to the Euro and tell me what you think if you can manage that of course.


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## rainyday (16 Jan 2004)

*Re: re: sorry to go off topic but....!*

Hi TB - Fair enough - Though I would recommend that you do a bit of Googling on Florida electoral register issues to give yourself a fair picture of what actually happened in Florida prior to 2000. And for the record, Greg Palast has done a pile of work for the well-respected BBC2 Newsnight programme also.


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## Rodders (16 Jan 2004)

*Re: sorting out that Euro thingy*

Hi True Blue,

I might try to engage you in comments if you actually put something down that was in some way meaningful.

You might consider what you have written to be a series of  economic and political comment etc.

I would consider it (and to be fair it is only my opinion but....) to be some of the worst type of pub commentary  - I'd expect better from somebody who has had a trouserful at 1:30 in the morning.  Do you really have to be this sloppy?

The phrase (which I have used before on another occasion) is the certainty of stupidity and that certainly applies to you if you truly believe some of the tripe you have posted earlier.

Yes, we play rough on planet Earth sometimes.

Oh and for the record I think that the Euro is a good thing actually.  I might point out that it improves efficiency between the various economies in the Euro zone through decreased transaction costs, also improves the potential for intra Eurozone trade which should increase all the more because of the new countries coming in (although I admit that is a bit more long run) etc etc?  After all, they are two of the principal reasons why we joined remember?  

Or perhaps you have decided that it's bad and that's it. Fine. Great.  Thank you so much for sorting that little problem for us. 

Happy now?

Rodders.


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## True Blue (16 Jan 2004)

*Re: sorting out that Euro thingy*

Rodder, Are you out on day release? Your rantings and raving suggest your going thru' some sort of er, withdrawal symptons?

Once again I ask you to critise the four points that I made earlier. Maybe you can't though because you don't have any valid points. Is that it?

By the way I am always happy.

Have a nice day and God Bless America!

Blue


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## <A HREF=http://pub145.ezboard.com/baskaboutmoney.s (16 Jan 2004)

*Re: sorting out that Euro thingy*

It might help if people stopped riling each other but I think that this discussion has gone to the dogs already...


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## newkie1 (16 Jan 2004)

*Re: re: sorry to go off topic but....!*

In response to Blue:

1. Despite the manipulation which occured in the supreme court you can not say the electoral college is a democratic "majority".  Heck, the historical reason why the electoral college was implemented was to keep real power out of the masses hands.  Check out chapter 1 in "Hegemony or Survival: America's Quest for Global Dominance (The American Empire Project)" by Noam Chomsky.

2. Did I say the US should bend over for the UN?  No.  Did you read that article I mentioned?  I guess not as you entirely missed my point.  My point was that every president until now, more or less, has been a custodian of that deck of cards.  In my analogy the deck of cards represents more than just NATO or the UN.  It represents the US's diplomatic relations with the rest of the world.

3. Michael Moore is entertainment, backed loosely with facts.  I shuddder to think if anyone reads more in to it than that.  And yes, black/white/other, if you support Bush I will call you names (but all in good fun).  Why would I hold my tongue because of someone's color?  That's reverse prejudice.  I work in one of the most diverse cities in the country.  If I held my tongue everytime I coworker wasn't white I probably wouldn't say ten words all day.  Tip-toeing around someone because they are a different color isn't exactly treating them as equals, is it.

Lastly, no he wasn't right to go to war.  If America is supposed to be the good guy, you can't start the war.  Despite pissing away the world's goodwill (or good karma) from 9/11, in America's illustrious career of nation building we have caused more problems than we have solved.  But again, you missed my point.  It was never about Iraq, it was about setting back America's diplomatic relations at least 10 years.  When there were two superpowers this damage may have blown over quicker, but now there is just one.  History is replete with examples of forces culimating against a sole power.  It is human nature to want Rome to fall.


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## Rodders (16 Jan 2004)

*Euro stuff*

>Rodder, Are you out on day release? Your rantings and >raving suggest your going thru' some sort of er, >withdrawal symptons?

No actually, I lecture in Economics - specifically I lecture in Macro economics.  I presaume you have heard of the subject?

The difference between us is that I would like to deal with facts rather than opinions.... You tend to find that people take you more seriously when you can back assertions up.

>Once again I ask you to critise the four points that I >made earlier. Maybe you can't though because you >don't have any valid points. Is that it?

No I can actually make some comments pleasesee below - You dont back up anything you say - experience tells me when somebody does this they don't want to bother really thinking about the issue.  As a dinner party comment opinion that might be acceptable but it only takes you so far ok?  While you're at it you might as well blame single mothers for all the good it would do you.

>Here’s why I think the Euro is going to fail and fail >miserable it will.

1. Interest rates.

>No country in the Eurozone has complete control of >their interest rates. This is bad for inflation, >competitiveness and hence job creation. What will the >outcome be if the ECB starts hiking up the interest >rates? Surely this would not benefit all countries.

I think the major point here is that the control of interest rates is done on an economic basis rather than a political one - this has to be a good thing.  However, I would accept that some countires might suffer from what is called asymmetric shocks ie Ireland MAY have something occur to the economy that is unique to us and the current monetary policy may not be best suited to us at that time.  However, this POTENTIAL problem should drop in all likelihood as the Euro zone economies move closer together.

>2. Socialism.

>The powers to be in the Eurozone (France and >Germany) are socialist states with power hungry >unions, inflated costs of living and suffocating red tape >and bureaucracy.

Yeah, I really feel for these oppressed peoples (who are much better off then we are (and don't even get my started about the States in terms of living standards!)

Stuff like worker rights (joining those pesky unions etc)
I reall feel their pain, really  


>The French and German’s have already broken their >promises before (with deficits) and they’ll do it again. >The French are extremely hell bent on their own >interests and no one else’s unless of course it benefits >them. For instance, the French anti-war stance had >nothing to do with ‘saving’ Iraqi people but maintaining >the status quote when it came to their oil, business >and arms contracts with Sadam.

Oh and the US were there to bring democracy mom and apple pie to the Iraqi's??  Don't get me wrong I'm gald to see Saddam out - but it should have been done through the UN rather than securing yeat more oil for the US and keep Mr Cheney's pension sweet!

>If the Euro begins to 
>flounder they’ll twist the rules to suit themselves. For >example, when Ireland was voting the second time >around for the nice treated the Germans and French ?>were drawing up final drafts to chuck us out if we had >refused the second time. Another example would be >eastern European states supporting the US in the Iraqi >war. They were told, publicly and in no uncertain >terms, that their support for the US was a bad thing >and could see them excluded from membership. If >that’s not bullying I don’t know what is. This sort of >behaviour will lead to a ‘four legs good, two legs bad’ >syndrome (Animal farm George Orwell?). 

How can I say this delicately?  Well ok one point I would agree with you on is that once the rules are set they apply to everybody and if the rules are broken a country should face the appropriate sanction.  

As for being fired out of the EU - Please stop willya?  It's dross like that the no campaign used at the time!  
But just to clarify this for you - you're WRONG OK???

How were they going to kick us out  - invade????

As for your claim re: bullying Eastern European counties being bullied - DATA???

Yes, I can see that the candidates countries we SO bullied they aren't coming in. Oh no, I'm wrong 10 are joining in May!!

One other thing, since you appear to be of a right of centre presuasion.  I would argue that social democratic (ok you call them socialists!) actually manage the macroeconomies better than their right wing counterparts (Remember the boom-bust years of Mrs T and our own dear Charlie and Mary duet of 1997 on??)

>3. We are not that important!

>Contrary to popular opinion us Irish are, …er, not that >important. We are a small country with a population >tipping 4 million. Look, I am proud to be Irish and we >have achieved some great things but I think it’s gone >to our heads. We are how in the presidency of the EU. >Providing we do what the big boys tell us to do we’ll be >fine. Step out of line and feel the crack of the whip. >This government knows it can’t make any real >changes/decisons unless bureaucrats, ‘officials’ and >vested interests give the go ahead. This means that >the presidency is nothing but a puppet. Those in real >control are unaccountable which will lead to mistakes ?>being made and rampant corruption – needless to say >not good for business.

We're small yes - (can't change the laws of physics Jim)being currently 1% of the EU market.  However we punch well above our weight in the EU as a whole and 2 countries will never have complete ownership of the EU as an institution   - I think the UK, Italy Spain and Poland might have a thing or two to say about that.

The last bit is a rant, what more can I say?  Where are your facts please?  

4. Economy:

>Our economy is more in tune with the British and >American economies and not the Europeans.

Hmmm.... While the UK and the US is important to us in terms of being trading partners, I don't think you can make the jump you did (Remember France and Germany are pretty important to us too!) I would also think that over relience on 2 economies is a bad thing for us - Also it should be worth pointing out that Ireland has the lowest level of trade with the new guys coming in in May - You don't think we should do something about that?

In relation to some points made by other posters:
‘Surely you might just as well say is the concept of a single currency for all 50 states of the US a flawed concept?’

-America has a common history and culture much more intwined than EU states. Their currency has worked the jury is still out on ours.

We're currently working out a common history with the rest of Europe - it's called the EU.  So when the US formed it a good thing but not for us yeah?

I think you're forgetting that one of the founding reasons for the EU is to make sure that no more wars are fought on our continent.

I also think (in Ireland at least) that we have very strong historical links with parts of Europe (UK France and Spain)

Finally, I'm sure learned commentators said the same about the emergence of the US dollar at the time!  Relevance to the argument?

>By the way I am always happy.

I'm very glad to hear it!

>Have a nice day and God Bless America!

You too.  However, while I  have no problem with wishing a (actually any) country well, you'll forgive me if I don't invoke a deity I don't believe in.  Just doesn't seem right to me somehow.

Finally, 0 if you 're reading, apologies!  I'll try to be more direct next time I weigh in on the commentary.  I hope I have made up somewhat with this posting.

Regards all around,

Rodders.


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## yumi31 (17 Jan 2004)

*Re: Euro stuff*

Does this help clear up who won the election and why?  Sounds above board to me? He may not have been the most popular (certainly not now anyway), but he didn't win ileagaly, did he?


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## True Blue (19 Jan 2004)

*Re: Euro stuff*

Lecturer in economics ha ha ha… well that explains everything. For someone that doesn’t live or work in the real world you seem to think you know a lot. That’s why it took several postings from you to criticize my points and when you eventually got around to it you made a complete dog’s dinner of the argument. I have heard about macroeconomics, it’s a bit like multi media studies, knitting technology and haggis making, something we all know of but in the real world entirely useless and you comments prove that.

You constantly refer to my arguments as just been opinions or comments yet that is exactly what they are. Doh! Why do you have a problem with that? It’s ok to disagree, but you seem to think that you have the right to prevent me from voicing my point of view that is contrary to yours. Would you like to ban free speech? Given the current mess of debating in colleges I won’t be surprised.

Anyway back to the real issue:

1. Interest rates.
The purpose of the EU is more political than economical, hence, the EU constitution and all the other pseudo –political bodies set up that pretend to be part of an overall EU ‘democratic’ government. To suggest that the EU is solely for economic purposes is delusional. Why bother with elections or the formation of a constitution then? The EU would like to be seen as the USE (E is for Europe just in case you don’t un-der-stand). Each country and in particular their respective populations see politics and government in a different light, so rather than having a cohesive harmonized political EU, we will have countries or sub groups of countries pulling in different directions with very little agreement. Britain suffered dramatically in the EMU fiasco because they gave over control of their interest rates. They paid a heavy price for that.

2. Socialism

I don’t think the people in France and Germany would want your pity. More’s to the point, they need a jolt of reality and they are not better off than we are. There is no centre right political party in Europe today despite what some media outlets might say. Unions are becoming more and more stronger and human rights come with responsibility and duties, something quite in-alien to socialists. People want more for working less and while that seems like a great idea the truth of the matter is that it’ll never work.

I noticed you didn’t argue the point on France and Germany breaking their promise on deficits nor did you dispute the true motives of the French ‘anti-war’ rhetoric. Is it because you actually agree with my points? It looks like it. 

Oh and by the way your only ‘glad’ that Sadam is gone (thanks to the Americans and British) are you just ‘glad’ that the bathist party is gone too, along with the torture chambers and mass graves; along with the ethnic cleansing and rape, are you just sooo glad. If it was left up to the UN Iraq would still be under the control of Sadam and you and your cronies in the Uni Cafeteria know that.

America went to war for oil? Yeah right. Why didn’t they just buy it off Iraq? Why would they want to go to war for oil when they could easily have developed their own?

France and Germany were willing to have Ireland ejected if we had refused the Nice treaty a second time and they also warned East European countries because of their support for American. Do you call that democracy? You can be sure that that is just the start: [broken link removed]

Also Social Democrat is an oxymoron. Look at the damage done to countries that toe the socialist agenda. Britain was worst off under  ‘old’ labour than Mrs. Thatcher. And when this country adopted a more right wing approach to government we’ve never had it so good. Even though our government is how caving in to the left on a socialist agenda/platform. Bigger fools them.

3.   We are not that important

Wrong again, the two countries controlling the show in the EU at the moment are France and Germany.
You know that this presidency is only a fantasy to give the impression that democracy is working when it is quite clear it is not. It’s a bit like window dressing or like students going to boring lecturers – pretending to be interested (And tell me what’s more boring than listen to some old fart clapping on about macroeconomics… oooh what a big word!)

The last part of your comment is a cop out. You know I’m telling the truth but you don’t have any statements to counteract it.

4. Economy

Yes our economy is reliant on the EU and not just the UK and US. (Didn’t I say our economy is similar to the UK’s and the UK is part of the EU.Doh!)? But since you’re the ‘economist’ here surely you can see that we have developed the same cyclic pattern as those of the US and UK? Also I think the EU is a very good idea - economic wise-  what I’m arguing  is that politically it’s a dead duck. The Euro is one of the range of tools that France and Germany are employing to achieve their socialist agenda.

In relation to some other ‘points’ that you brought up….

A. The US was basically started from scratch the EU did  not. They didn’t have to contend with deep-rooted economic, cultural or historical issues. What present day Europe is trying to do is just airbrush these issues away, mould them to suits it’s own needs or if they are too deep rooted forget about them.
B.  ‘EU..blah blah blah.. no more wars on our continent’. What about the rapid reaction force or France trying to bid for supers power status?
C. Historical links with EU yes correct, historical links with US are much stronger.
D. ‘Invoke a deity I don’t believe in’. of course you don’t. You are  to self-centered to believe in anything outside yourself or the Uni cafeteria for that matter.


By the way macroeconomics is one word and where are your facts?


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## Rodders (19 Jan 2004)

*Rant on, baby*

Hi True Blue,

I was going to reply to this in more detail, but given the snide remarks you have made (not so much me - this I can live with) but the point(?) you raised about third level education, well sod it!  It seems you poo-poo somebody who might know something about the subject because they study it?  You obviously know better because you say so in which case why bother with the original posting as all you had to do was send the entire population a mind message. 

By the way I'm not saying you NEED a qualification per se, but if you feel that economics, macro-economics or macroeconomics (thanks for your contribution there by the way!) isn't important, I think it's time to call a halt at this stage because there is no point ok?

In a democracy, you have the right to be ill-informed.
It's a pity you decide to use that right and ignore any other point of view  (although I would appeal to you that this is a dangerous course of action on your part)....As I said, there were one or two points that could have done in your initial argument with some further development, but no, we'll have a rant instead and after that we'll be right back after the break...!

So to sign off in terms you can understand, I shall simply say this....

WHATEVER, GIRLFRIEND.

Have a special day now, y'hear?

Rodders.


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## True Blue (19 Jan 2004)

*Re: Rant on, baby*

Aw poor Rodders.. I didn't meant to upset you but you had it coming. You are the one that posted here with very little substance and launched an attack against my opinions.

By the way do you have a beard and wear cardigans or a tweed coat?


Shalom.


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## <A HREF=http://pub145.ezboard.com/baskaboutmoney.s (19 Jan 2004)

*Re: Rant on, baby*



> By the way do you have a beard and wear cardigans or a tweed coat?



Just popped by to see if this topic had gone anywhere but I take it from the above that it's a lost cause... :rolleyes


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## True Blue (19 Jan 2004)

*Re: Rant on, baby*

'Just popped by to see if this topic had gone anywhere but I take it from the above that it's a lost cause' ...zzzzzzzzzzzZZZ

Please read my other postings and the valid points I made there (whether you agree or disagree with them is an entirely different matter). Also , I  would like to point out that it was Rodders that posted very little facts and tried to stiffle the argument.

Blue


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## Rodders (20 Jan 2004)

*Memo to the knoweldge boy*

Hi again,

>Please read my other postings and the valid points I >made there (whether you agree or disagree with them >is an entirely different matter). Also , I would like >to point out that it was Rodders that posted very >little facts and tried to stiffle the argument.

yeah, yeah whatever :rolleyes 

Memo to 0 :- Apologies.  I did try but you can't really compete with somebody who compares economics with knitting!

And finally to my fellow poster true blue.  One or two small corrections re: myself.   Nope don't have a beard or wear that type of jacket you describe. As I previously posted, you can take any shot you like at me (fair enough), but please don't denigrate the subject of economics.  May I be so bold as to ask your background? (seeing as I appear to be living in the ivory tower? - A tad inaccurate by the way)

Regards,

Rodders.

PS You might be interested to learn that the European Commission have asked for a judgement from the European Court of Justice as to the legality of ignorng sanctions on France and Germany excessive budget defecits.  That well known socialist, Charlie McCreevy was on this morning being quite annoyed about it.  Something there about checks and balances perhaps?


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## Protocol (21 Jan 2004)

*debate*

I would like to move away from all the politics, etc., and just say that surely we must accept that the euro is not a failure as it is being used by 300 million people everyday.

The euro has gains and losses for any member state. One problem is, as mentioned already, the loss of control over interest rates. Howver, overall, Ireland gains from membership of the euro.

So to answer the question: NO, it is not flawed.


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## True Blue (21 Jan 2004)

*re-debate*

‘I would like to move away from all the politics, etc.,..’


If anything the euro is being used as a tool for greater political integration.

‘accept that the euro is not a failure as it is being used by 300 million people everyday…’

It doesn’t make much of a difference how many people use the Euro. If it becomes more political than it already is than market forces are squeezed out which is the true determinant on how the Euro will succeed.


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## Rodders (21 Jan 2004)

*Euro debate*

The principal reason for the Euro is for greater ECONOMIC integration between all countries within the Euro zone.  In this regard economies of scale matter because what is better than a market of 4 million?  A market of 300 million!

If you improve the potential for trade, then further trade will occur.  That's one of the principal reasons why the old EEC was founded.

There is of course a political aspect to it as well in that in order for the currency to work the various economies cede some amount of economic soverignity (in terms of adjusting interest rates), but that's the pay-off.

One positive thing is that the ECB are in charge of interest rates, (like the Bank of England in the UK).  I believe that if the power to change interest rates is out of the hands of politicians and in the hands of people who have some idea of what's going on, you're more likely to get a decision on what is best for the economy as a whole.

Another reason for the Euro is that given a common currency and increased intra Eurozone trade, it should allow economies to develop at the industry they are best at (the idea of comparative advantage).

There is initially a possibility that an economy that is out of sync (in terms of the business cycle) may have policies applied to it which might not be in their best interests, but as I said earlier, this possibility will reduce as the economies get into closer alignment over time.

Naturally, it would be in Ireland's interest, if the UK joined, which I think it will in the medium to long term (because the cost of staying out will become too large).

To True Blue, could you expand on your last point please?  I didn't quite follow what you were saying there.

Thanks,

Rodders.


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## househunter1 (22 Jan 2004)

*Re: Euro debate*

Hi True Blue
Most governments recently elected in the EU are of a centre right disposition..... Ireland, Spain, Italy etc. I suspect not as far to the right as your disposition however.

The EU is overwhelmingly about economics not politics

The unions are getting weaker all the time. I think this trend will accelerate as we get further into the information age.

Gore recieved a higher count of votes than Bush in the last election if you sum up the total count across all states (albeit by a narrow majority)

You do however make some valid comments about interest rates etc. I think you should work on these points rather than labour on plain non truths.


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