# Tax on Diesel and Petrol - What about Electric?



## DreamingOf (17 Aug 2011)

Hi all,
I read recently that excise tax on diesel & petrol accounts for approx. 30 - 40% of the price we pay at the pump. That sounds a lot. Firstly, is that really the case? (There would of course also be VAT in addition too)
Secondly, with all the talk about Electric cars. Is there excise tax on the electricity too? And what % would it be, do you think?

Look forward to hearing what you think..


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## Leo (17 Aug 2011)

It's actually more than that. Approx 50% of the price you pay for petrol is excise, and as you point out, that's pre VAT, so the total tax take is higher.



> The excise rates (including the carbon charge) in Ireland on motor fuels are 57.6 cent on a litre of petrol and 46.6 cent on a litre of auto-diesel.


 
Electricity is not an excisable product. 
Leo


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## DreamingOf (19 Aug 2011)

Thats crazy!
Do they publish those excise rates?

Also, I wonder is that why / how the Electric car will be so cost effective to run - that is - until Excise is put on it...


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## serotoninsid (19 Aug 2011)

DreamingOf said:


> Thats crazy!
> Do they publish those excise rates?
> 
> Also, I wonder is that why / how the Electric car will be so cost effective to run - that is - until Excise is put on it...


Well, I guess they have to incentivise it - so that makes sense.  However, if you look at the capital cost alone of an electric vehicle - then they have a long way to go before they become economically viable for your average joe..


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## hastalavista (19 Aug 2011)

DreamingOf said:


> Thats crazy!
> Do they publish those excise rates?




http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/excise/duties/excise-duty-rates.html


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## chris20051 (19 Aug 2011)

see petrol/diesel breakdown etc here


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## Leo (22 Aug 2011)

DreamingOf said:


> Also, I wonder is that why / how the Electric car will be so cost effective to run - that is - until Excise is put on it...


 
Electric cars are a long way off being cost effective at this point. 
Leo


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## Betsy Og (19 Oct 2011)

Renault is plugging (no pun intended) the Fluence at the same price as the diesel model - c€21k. I'm starting to think they are a viable option.


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## roytheboyo (19 Oct 2011)

Thats right, but AFAIK you also 'lease' ore rent the battery for in the region of €70 a month.
Could be wrong but thats what i heard on it.


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## werner (20 Oct 2011)

roytheboyo said:


> Thats right, but AFAIK you also 'lease' ore rent the battery for in the region of €70 a month.
> Could be wrong but thats what i heard on it.


 
They are a useless proposition imho who would buy a car where you never "owned" the fuel tank


Interesting review here and about the lease of the batteries in the UK
Read more: http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/carreviews/firstdrives/274198/renault_fluence_ze.html#ixzz1bJAx5JPz
"Range is still a concern though, with Renault claiming an official figure of 115 miles, dropping as low as 50 miles under the worst conditions

​
The price is so low because it doesn’t include the expensive batteries; instead Renault will lease these to you on a monthly basis. For example a 9,000-mile-a-year lease over three years will cost £81 – though covering 15,000 miles a year will warrant a monthly cost of £103.80."


​​


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## werner (20 Oct 2011)

When you pay your electricity bill you also pay an additional stealth tax to subsidise highly inefficient alternative energy generation so in a way you will be subsidisng electricity for electric cars


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## Betsy Og (20 Oct 2011)

Maybe when a few more manufacturers start making them the competition will sort out the battery issue - I hope that there is some regulatory body which sets out a standard battery dimension & type (or maybe, say, 4 different sizes but otherwise the same).

This would allow for a generic battery in due course, so you could buy a battery outright and take your chances (if we knew how much a new battery cost and the failure/deterioration rate we could get an idea how good or bad the monthly rental is). 

If the batteries are a bit unreliable long term you'd probably end up taking out insurance on them (or adding it on to your regular car insurance) so you wouldnt lose a pile on an "unlucky" battery.

I do agree that this monthly charge is offputting - if does give the argument that you might as well be buying diesel. Whatever is in it I'd love to get one - & I'm not an eco warrior particularly.

Also, I note the Fluence currently advertised is an automatic - I think I'd prefer the experience of a manual - AFAIK all the electric does is turn the drive shaft so I'm thinking the clutch and gears could be the same as an ICE. This might also help bring the cost down??? I've driven automatic before and its grand but in Ireland I think they'd be expensive to fix -and isnt there a problem towing them (not to be sneezed at when this hairdryer might need a hand every so often!!)

I think they should work out a battery swap method, drive into the garage, swap your dead battery for a charged one - gets rid of the range and time to recharge issue.


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## 44brendan (20 Oct 2011)

I have driven an automatic car for the last 15 years at least. I find them reliable and efficient with no exceptional problems to a manual model. I find the Irish/British reluctance to drive them hard to understand. Fuel consumption is slightly higher but with careful driving can be maintained at a very reasonable consumption level.
I look forward to the advent of reliable electric cars and wide availability of charging stations.


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## Betsy Og (10 Jan 2012)

I rang a Renault garage. The monthly charge for someone doing 25,000km (15,535 miles) is €118pm, so costs that for 15,535/12 = 1,294 miles per month, thats 9.12c per mile. This ignores the cost of charging it.

On a charge you should get 180km (at best), assume a full charge costs maybe €3 (probably on the high side). So 7.2 charges per month costing €21.60 (realistically you'd probably charge it a lot more, you're likely to keep it on full charge but maybe that means each charge is less than €3. Maybe call it €30p.m.???, or 2.32c per mile.

So thats roughly 9.12c + 2.32c = 11.44c per mile or 7.1c per kilometer. I'm not good at MPG of cars etc, but for those in the know how does that sound? (as I'm an ordinary punter feel free to check the logic/maths of the above!).

There's a scale of charge for battery rental, its about €104p.m. for 20,000km p.a. (guy didnt have figures to hand) - forgot to ask him is there going to be a manual version.

I'd be interested in any perspectives on this.


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## serotoninsid (10 Jan 2012)

I would be inclined to let the 'early adopters' pile in first - as they will do so at a premium - and at some inconvenience - given the (currently) paltry charging station network and a (mileage) range per charge that needs to be improved upon for the proposition to be practical for the vast majority of road users.

Furthermore, this technology is far from settled.  Buying a new EV now may not seem so smart if in 18-24 months, a major leap forward is made in terms of EV technology -particularly in relation to the battery.


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## Leo (10 Jan 2012)

The technology/infrastructure just isn't there yet to make this option a sensible one yet. 

For the Renault range, you have to get the ESB out to install the charging station in your home for a 'standard charge'. No mention of what the charge is though. Even with that, the recharge time is 6-8 hours. There is a further option to charge from a standard domestic socket, but that would result in a longer charge time of 'about' 10 hours. 

These cars don't have a gear box, so there will not be a 'manual' version.

I think you'd be mad to consider one of these now. 
Leo


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## Betsy Og (10 Jan 2012)

Leo said:


> These cars don't have a gear box, so there will not be a 'manual' version.


 
Is this necessarily so though? Isnt the essential difference that instead of pistons turning a drive shaft its an electric motor doing so?, wont there still be a clutch plate and a gearing system? 

After all it wouldnt be "automatic" if there were no gears (automatic being automatic gear changing). Maybe golf carts have no gears, more pedal = more power = faster, but I dont think thats the case for a car.

So, in principle, I dont see why you wouldnt/couldnt have a manual version. Might bring the cost down a bit while they're at it.


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## serotoninsid (10 Jan 2012)

Leo said:


> For the Renault range, you have to get the ESB out to install the charging station in your home for a 'standard charge'. No mention of what the charge is though.


i think there's a scheme in place right now whereby the ESB will install a home charging station for free for the first X thousand EV owners?  Otherwise, I believe this costs circa 600-800 euro.  I'd imagine this only applies to someone buying new.  Also, isn't there a grant or rebate or similar on offer?  Again, I guess this applies only if you buy in IRL.  There was mention (over on boards.ie) of folks considering to buy in the UK (as same models working out cheaper) - as there was a price differential.  I guess the rebate won't apply here.


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## Betsy Og (10 Jan 2012)

The advertised "Same as the diesel price" - is after you reclaim the government rebate (so it costs more initially).

Am I right in thinking there's no VRT as zero emmissions?, would mean it would be a simpler/cheaper UK import (pay the Irish VAT you would otherwise have paid the garage).

Could get cheaper again as & when 2nd hand models become available as if over 6 months old (or X 000 km's) then no Irish VAT. In theory there should be less need to change as less mechanical wear - but I dont know how much of a factor that is in people changing cars (compared to newer styling, prestige, interior getting shabby etc etc). 

I gather the battery rental is a type of insurance policy against a dodgy battery - you should get the battery replaced without further charge (no pun intended) if its on the blink. 

Must track my annual mileage, and monthly diesel spend and see, in theory at least, if that montly rental/cost of charging is easier on the pocket. Wont change car until next year at v. earliest so will be some guinea pigs on the road by then (though as tend to buy 2 year old car maybe I'll pick up a 2nd hand 2y.o. elec in 2014!).


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## Leo (10 Jan 2012)

Betsy Og said:


> Is this necessarily so though? Isnt the essential difference that instead of pistons turning a drive shaft its an electric motor doing so?, wont there still be a clutch plate and a gearing system?


 
When an electric car is stopped, the motor isn't turning, so there's no need for clutch plates or any of that complexity. There will be gearing to reduce the motor's rpm to that delivered to the wheels, but this is a fixed ratio. The torque range of electric motors means you don't need variable gearing. 



Betsy Og said:


> After all it wouldnt be "automatic" if there were no gears (automatic being automatic gear changing).


 
I believe they're just using the term automatic there to reassure people using language they are familiar with.



Betsy Og said:


> So, in principle, I dont see why you wouldnt/couldnt have a manual version. Might bring the cost down a bit while they're at it.


 
There's nothing stopping it in principal as you say, but it's not necessary, and would only add considerable weight and complexity. So it would be more expensive, have a shorter range, and won't happen.


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## Leo (10 Jan 2012)

serotoninsid said:


> i think there's a scheme in place right now whereby the ESB will install a home charging station for free for the first X thousand EV owners?


 
I hadn't heard that and the ESB Electric Cars site has no details of this either, only of their committment to install so many public and sites, with the private ones being dependant on car sales.



serotoninsid said:


> Also, isn't there a grant or rebate or similar on offer?


 
Te rebate is only on the purchase price of the car, and this is already included in the prices you see advertised.


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## Leo (10 Jan 2012)

Betsy Og said:


> Am I right in thinking there's no VRT as zero emmissions?, would mean it would be a simpler/cheaper UK import (pay the Irish VAT you would otherwise have paid the garage).


 
There is a VRT relief of up to €5000 available on qualifying electric vehicles. See the VRT guide here for details. I'm not sure if that relief is available on imported cars.



Betsy Og said:


> I gather the battery rental is a type of insurance policy against a dodgy battery - you should get the battery replaced without further charge (no pun intended) if its on the blink.


 
It also saves you the very considerable cost of buying it up front, but the main reason is battery performance will diminish over time depending on useage patterns, and replacement would obviously be very costly. 



Betsy Og said:


> Must track my annual mileage, and monthly diesel spend and see, in theory at least, if that montly rental/cost of charging is easier on the pocket. Wont change car until next year at v. earliest so will be some guinea pigs on the road by then (though as tend to buy 2 year old car maybe I'll pick up a 2nd hand 2y.o. elec in 2014!).


 
Good idea. You should also track usage patterns, like, do you park somewhere you can safely hook up to charge the car? Do you go on any long journeys that might exceed the range of an electric car? Where would you recharge the battery if this was the case? There aren't that many accessible charging points across the [broken link removed] yet. Even the ones that are in place aren't always available. For example, the point on Adelaide Road in Dublin is a by a parking space that is not restricted to electric vehicles, most times I pass it, the point is blocked.
Leo


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## Betsy Og (11 Jan 2012)

Leo said:


> The torque range of electric motors means you don't need variable gearing.


 
But say you're climbing a mountain, wont the engine have to work harder (lower gear) to sustain the same speed as compared to driving on the flat. 

Therefore is the gear that definitely fixed?, or would it not take in the sophistication of automatic gears (which I gather will change down gear on inclines to avoid the engine labouring - ok I know an electric motor probably wont labour as such but wont the gearing need to drop down to accomodate the extra force required to climb the hill).


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## Leo (11 Jan 2012)

Betsy Og said:


> But say you're climbing a mountain, wont the engine have to work harder (lower gear) to sustain the same speed as compared to driving on the flat.


 
The superior torque of an electric motor means a fixed gearing will handle this no problem. Combustion engines have much lower torque levels and this torque can only be delivered effectively across a relatively narrow range of rpm, so a gearbox is neccessary to ensure this narrow band is efficiently used across the entire speed range of the car. 

So no, lower gearing will not be required to take on steep hills. The motor will draw a higer current, and run the battery down more quickly, but on the downhill, regenerative charging will allow the battery recover some of that energy.
Leo


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