# Volkswagen Beetle/MX5/Toyota Celica etc.



## Northerngirl (20 Jun 2007)

Anyone got advice on whether I should invest in a 2005/06 model. Im single female driver, doing approx 10,000 in a year. Want something nice to look at, but also reliable, which holds value. Also considering Toyota Cellica??


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## Gabriel (20 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*

Beetle isn't that great - built on old Golf platform as far as I know.

Go for a Mazda MX-5 or a Mini Cooper.

Both good fun to drive. Mazda will be more reliable and arguably a better car too.


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## Caveat (20 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*

Don't have specifics but remember seeing a lot of negative motoring press about the beetle.  Beetle people usually fit the profile of Mini people (no offence intended if this is inaccurate!) and as Gabriel says, mini is a much better car than the beetle.

What about new Civic also?


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## bacchus (21 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*



Northerngirl said:


> Anyone got advice on whether I should invest in a 2005/06 model.


 
No. Anglo Irish Bank/AIB/EBS/NR/Rabo would be a safer bet.. 

On a more serious note, what's your budget?


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## Thrifty1 (21 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*



bacchus said:


> No. Anglo Irish Bank/AIB/EBS/NR/Rabo would be a safer bet..
> 
> On a more serious note, what's your budget?


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## RS2K (21 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*

A nice choice. MINI will hold value really well. MX5 is rwd and a better drive imho. Choice of soft and hard tops too.


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## Northerngirl (21 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*

Budget is about 15 grand (euro). Really like the Mazda MX (had great reviews in WhatCar), but think its out of my budget.


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## KalEl (21 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*

What about a 04 Golf (new model)?
Reliable, hold their value and a three door Sportsline looks pretty good.
You'd get one for around 15K


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## Northerngirl (21 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*

MX5 is rwd and a better drive imho. 
-Sorry dont understand the lingo??


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## Northerngirl (21 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*

Thanks Kiel, was looking at the Golf also. this is all very useful info.


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## KalEl (21 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*



Northerngirl said:


> MX5 is rwd and a better drive imho.
> -Sorry dont understand the lingo??


 
Rear Wheel Drive...personally I wouldn't touch a Mazda with a barge pole.
German engineering-the way forward!


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## Gabriel (21 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*



KalEl said:


> Rear Wheel Drive...personally I wouldn't touch a Mazda with a barge pole.
> German engineering-the way forward!



Eh?

For starters German engineering is often overrated - VW being a classic example. 

Secondly Mazda make some great cars - the 6 being a good example.

MX-5 is generally considered to be the best affordable roadster for about the last 15 years. 

RWD means that the power from the engine goes to the rear wheels and not the front ones. This is a good setup...power comes from the rear and steering is done by the front wheels. Also makes for a fun drive and the car is very controllable.

It's only stumbling point is that it has a bit of a girly image - but in this case that wouldn't be a problem 

For 15K you'd get a very good one - don't get hung up on the year!

(http://www.carzone.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=car&carid=691030)


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## Northerngirl (21 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*

I dont have a garage. Surely you would need some cover particularly in the Winter??


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## KalEl (21 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*



Gabriel said:


> Eh?
> 
> For starters German engineering is often overrated - VW being a classic example.
> 
> ...


 
I don't want to get into an argument over this but I've some good friends involved in the car business at different levels. I've been told specifically that Mazda is high margin high commissiopn for the salesmen and quite simply not as good quality as Volkswagen for example. The also lose their value quicker, something which the OP is concerned about.
Based on what I know I would not buy one myself or recommend one.
It's like advising someone not to buy a Fiat because they are unreliable and depreciate quickly. You'll always get someone who'll disagree and say they're great...but they're not.
If you've a choice between buying a Volkswagen and a Mazda buy the Volkwagen and you won't go far wrong (having checked the obvious stuff)


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## Firefly (21 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*

Mrs Firefly has a Beetle and adores it. She has a 1.6 and it's peppy enough for her needs. The car has been to the garage a few times but nothing big at all. Boot is a joke and the dash in front of you is massive (explaining the small boot). They're pretty wide too. I think when you buy a Beetle or Mini you buy with your heart cos you love them.


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## Gabriel (21 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*



KalEl said:


> I don't want to get into an argument over this but I've some good friends involved in the car business at different levels. I've been told specifically that Mazda is high margin high commissiopn for the salesmen and quite simply not as good quality as Volkswagen for example. The also lose their value quicker, something which the OP is concerned about.
> Based on what I know I would not buy one myself or recommend one.
> It's like advising someone not to buy a Fiat because they are unreliable and depreciate quickly. You'll always get someone who'll disagree and say they're great...but they're not.
> If you've a choice between buying a Volkswagen and a Mazda buy the Volkwagen and you won't go far wrong (having checked the obvious stuff)



You might not want to argue the point but it's simply completely untrue about VW reliability over Mazda.

http://www.channel4.com/4car/news/news-story.jsp?news_id=15708&ref=archive

Mazda are up there with Honda and Toyota in terms of reliability of their cars. 

VW market their cars very well. The facts however in surveys speak for themselves.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/germany/article/0,2763,1013589,00.html

Btw...a new Golf costs ~ 31-32k (with any decent extras). As does an MX-5 (not exactly like for like I know).
A 7 year old of both cost ~ the same.

Lots of myths in the car industry...and I also know tonnes of people working in the car industry at various levels all of whom will tell you something different. The truth about cars often tends to be different.


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## RS2K (21 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*

I agree. Mazda are well made and pretty relaible. Their bigger cars loose value quicker. The MX5 will be reliable.  Buy a hardtop for the winter. 

VW have a perceived notion of quality, but the reality is a bit different. The 1.9TDI engine is old school at this stage. Relatively unrefined and agricultural. They are generally well overpriced too. 

I like the Golf GTI btw.


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## Firefly (21 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*

Beetle 1.4 will hold it's value pretty well but won't be too thrilling.


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## RS2K (21 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*



Firefly said:


> Beetle 1.4 will hold it's value pretty well but won't be too thrilling.



A considerable understatement


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## Purple (21 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*



KalEl said:


> I don't want to get into an argument over this but I've some good friends involved in the car business at different levels. I've been told specifically that Mazda is high margin high commissiopn for the salesmen and quite simply not as good quality as Volkswagen for example. The also lose their value quicker, something which the OP is concerned about.
> Based on what I know I would not buy one myself or recommend one.
> It's like advising someone not to buy a Fiat because they are unreliable and depreciate quickly. You'll always get someone who'll disagree and say they're great...but they're not.
> If you've a choice between buying a Volkswagen and a Mazda buy the Volkwagen and you won't go far wrong (having checked the obvious stuff)


I have driven VW (Passat and Golf) and Mazda (Mazda 6) and confiscated my wife's MX5  and IMHO Mazda’s are  far superior cars from a drive, build quality and reliability point of view. I now drive an A4 soft top, 1.8T petrol and while it’s a great car the MX5 was 10 times as much fun. 
The Beatle will bore you to death, as will the Golf (and the electrics will break your heart). Go for the MX5 (or a Ford Focus, but not a Golf!)


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## KalEl (21 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*



Purple said:


> I have driven VW (Passat and Golf) and Mazda (Mazda 6) and confiscated my wife's MX5  and IMHO Mazda’s are far superior cars from a drive, build quality and reliability point of view. I now drive an A4 soft top, 1.8T petrol and while it’s a great car the MX5 was 10 times as much fun.
> The Beatle will bore you to death, as will the Golf (and the electrics will break your heart). Go for the MX5 (or a Ford Focus, but not a Golf!)


 
I drove Golfs for 10 years, so did my brother, so have a couple of my friends...never a problem.


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## RS2K (21 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*



KalEl said:


> I drove Golfs for 10 years, so did my brother, so have a couple of my friends...never a problem.



Overtaking in a 1.4 Golf is a huge problem. It requires a full moon, weeks of meticulous planning, an oncoming vehicle free road the length of a small runway, and possibly some fresh legislation/a new pope


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## Caveat (21 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*



KalEl said:


> I drove Golfs for 10 years, so did my brother, so have a couple of my friends...never a problem.


 
sounds like you have been a bit lucky KalEl - statistically, you should have had at least a few problems


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## Gabriel (21 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*



RS2K said:


> Overtaking in a 1.4 Golf is a huge problem. It requires a full moon, weeks of meticulous planning, an oncoming vehicle free road the length of a small runway, and possibly some fresh legislation/a new pope



Excellent 



KalEl said:


> I drove Golfs for 10 years, so did my brother, so have a couple of my friends...never a problem.



There's plenty of people out there (and I've read em all on Boards) who'll try to convince you that they've owned seventeen Alfa Romeos and so do all their friends and they've never had a moments problem 
Don't get me wrong...not knocking the Golf. It's not a bad car...but German build quality is an absolute myth. I know friends driving old Clios and Puntos that have been going for donkeys years but we all know that in general these cars give all sorts of problems. 

For instance, one of the worst car manufacturers out there at the moment is Mercedes Benz...they make the worst built cars out there for the kinda money they expect. And it's a shame as they have some great motors...like the CLS.

What irks me about VW is that they basically make very average cars and sell them at exhorbitant prices...and people buy them believing that they're buying into something special. The same applies to boggo BMW's...when in reality all you're getting is some decent build quality and materials...but not worth the hassle in my opinion if that's all you get.

Sorry...I'm ranting here.

To the OP - before you make any decisions...go and take an MX-5 for a spin. I have no vested interest in selling you one. I don't work for Mazda...never owned one...I just have a passion for good cars. Doesn't matter whether it's a small run around or a big performance car. A good car is a good car. The Mazda will give you years of pleasure for little cost.


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## KalEl (22 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*

I agree with the comment on trying to overtake in a 1.4 Golf...laborious to say the least. I went from a 1.4 to a GTI which was like switching to a jet plane.
Bought a CLK this year and have had no problems...quite the opposite in fact sp would question anyone slagging off Mercedes-Benz. Guess I have an obsession with German cars and their reliability!
Wouldn't touch an Alfa with someone else's money, attractive and all as some of them are!


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## aircobra19 (22 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*

All the German cars we've ever own always had niggling problems. The surveys show that their reliability is not up there with the Japanese manufacturers. Thats been a constant for years. Our experience has pretty much ben the same. 

Can't say anyone I know had any car of any make that didn't have some problem at some point. So for 3 or 4 people to had the same model (especially a golf) for 10yrs and have no problems is very hard to believe. 

While I wouldn't buy a Beetle for myself, lots of people love the design. Many people have no interest in how a care handles or accelerates either.


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## KalEl (22 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*



aircobra19 said:


> All the German cars we've ever own always had niggling problems. The surveys show that their reliability is not up there with the Japanese manufacturers. Thats been a constant for years. Our experience has pretty much ben the same.
> 
> Can't say anyone I know had any car of any make that didn't have some problem at some point. So for 3 or 4 people to had the same model (especially a golf) for 10yrs and have no problems is very hard to believe.


 
Depends on how you define a "problem"...I consider just having to get a car serviced every year and get the timing belt replaced when necessary to be a sign of good reliability. That's my experience with a Golf that's been in my family for 10 years since new. I never had a problem with one I bought from new and had for a couple of years.
Obviously specifics don't prove a generality and I do have a thing about only buying European cars so I'm biased. Might consider a Lexus though! Or even Infiniti which are going to be awesome


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## aircobra19 (22 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*

VW has well known issues with Ignition coil problems, door locks, windows, fuel pumps, suspensions stuff like that. Depends on the model and year though. I had a Mrk II GTI for many years and we had many diesels VW saloons too. But I wouldn't rate their reliability being close to the Hondas, Toyota's, Nissans we've had. 

Oddly enough Skoda's which are mechanically the same don't suffer the same.


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## aircobra19 (24 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*



1234 said:


> ....With regard to your choice of a VW Beetle, I agree that it looks great and will hold it value well but it has been slatted in most car mags as being terrible to drive with bad handling....



Odd my memory was most  reckoned it was much better than the Golf its based on, and generally better than average. But its not a drivers car and was never pitched as one. So what "better than average" refers to I have no idea.


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## Sunster (25 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*

Guys i think Northern girl has switched off.

The debate here is rather futile as she is enquiring about the Beetle and the MX5....I think we all know which is the far better car.

I don't know how the golf got into the debate but I don't think she raised it. All cars have their problems...and on evidence the MX5 would have far fewer than the Golf. Pound for pound the MX 5 would be more fun than the golf. No doubt the Golf is more practical....however comparing these cars is like comparing apples to oranges....both very different and aimed at different types of people.


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## aircobra19 (25 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*

I guess it depends what you define as better. Which is better for image for example?


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## Sunster (25 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*

Image...depends on male female...occupation...values...

In comparing which is the better car between MX5 and beetle...where do you start? the easiest and shortest thing I could say is that the beetle has 4 seats (if you need it) and easy to resell as there will always be females interested in it. Can't think of anything else in favour fr it. ...oh yes the beetle has a small holder for a flower!


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## Gabriel (25 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*



Sunster said:


> oh yes the beetle has a small holder for a flower!



Let's face it - this is vital for most people


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## aircobra19 (25 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*

Whats better is going to be different for each person. I'm not one of them, but I know plenty of people who would much prefer a beetle over a MX5. Even when the beetle is not the most suitable car for them, ie family and kids etc. 

AFAIK the OP didn't originally ask about the MX5 that was suggested by another poster.


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## Sunster (25 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*

Good point. back to the orig post....I'd personally prefer the celica to the Beetle.


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## Northerngirl (25 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*

Sunster, I most definately havent switched off from the debate, but have been absorbing all the info with relish! Ive definately gone off buying a Beetle or any German/European cars, through reading AAm posts & from reading What Car mag. Am looking out for a decent MX-5 to test drive up north, or a Mazda or Honda. Has anyone any experience of a Toyota Coupe or Cellica - the other Toyota models are so boring and dull to look at.


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## aircobra19 (25 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*

Celica's ok. But the MX5 still gets my vote.


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## Sunster (25 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*

Welcome back...good to hear you're still here. 
Good to know you've narrowed down your choice. 
The debate i think still boils down to whether you wanna soft top or hard top. If you fancy a soft top then there's the toyota MR2 which is a very fun car to drive but not as much so as the MX5 and not as practical either.
Given the choice of the MX5 and celica, I'd still go for MX5 as a personal choice. Nothing wrong with the celica at all. i've a friend who has one and is very happy with it but I think as a driver's car it is less involving. Having said that, in terms of image, there's not too many of them in Southern ireland and I guess that might be a plus.


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## Firefly (25 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*

Whilst it's good to get advise from What Car/AAM you really should drive the cars yourself. I don't think anyone would argue that a Beetle is more reliable than a Maxda, but reliablility isn't everything. I've had 2 Jap cars in the past and found them tinny and light. I have a German car now which was been to the garage for small jobs but is worth it for the solid drive I get...


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## Sunster (25 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*



Firefly said:


> I don't think anyone would argue that a Beetle is more reliable than a Maxda, ...


I would definitely. 
MX5 is almost bullet proof which is amazing considering how much harder they are usually driven. VWs are not the same build quality they used to be and hence there's been a huge VW overhaul at management level this year


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## Firefly (25 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*



Sunster said:


> I would definitely.
> MX5 is almost bullet proof which is amazing considering how much harder they are usually driven. VWs are not the same build quality they used to be and hence there's been a huge VW overhaul at management level this year


 
Wanna read my quote again there Sunster?


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## aircobra19 (25 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*



Firefly said:


> Whilst it's good to get advise from What Car/AAM you really should drive the cars yourself. I don't think anyone would argue that a Beetle is more reliable than a Maxda, but reliablility isn't everything. I've had 2 Jap cars in the past and found them tinny and light. I have a German car now which was been to the garage for small jobs but is worth it for the solid drive I get...



True. The bigger and heavier vehicle generally does more damage to the other car in an accident, and suffers least.  In single car accidents theres no difference. Thus buy the biggest heaviest thing you can.


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## KalEl (25 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*



aircobra19 said:


> True. The bigger and heavier vehicle generally does more damage to the other car in an accident, and suffers least. In single car accidents theres no difference. Thus buy the biggest heaviest thing you can.


 
Hummer it is so!


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## ang1170 (25 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*



Gabriel said:


> You might not want to argue the point but it's simply completely untrue about VW reliability over Mazda.
> 
> http://www.channel4.com/4car/news/news-story.jsp?news_id=15708&ref=archive
> 
> ...


 
I'd agree with this, and especially the myth of VW reliability. It's interesting to see some hard evidence rather than blind opinion, based on tiny samples (usually one or two cars).

I'm amazed that VW manage to hold onto their reputation (and hence maintain good resale values) as well as they do.


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## Gabriel (25 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*



ang1170 said:


> I'm amazed that VW manage to hold onto their reputation (and hence maintain good resale values) as well as they do.



By all accounts it's only going to get worse as they've made a decision next year to build the golf more cheaply (the new model).

Marketing is a wonderful thing.


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## Purple (25 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*



ang1170 said:


> I'm amazed that VW manage to hold onto their reputation (and hence maintain good resale values) as well as they do.


 My Audi is less reliable than my old Ford. My friends E class Merc is a joke as far as reliability is concerned.


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## aircobra19 (26 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*



1234 said:


> And spend a small fortune on fuel to power the heavy beast! Not really a good a idea in a world of rising oil prices and carbon tax.




Well if you can't afford the fuel thats a different story. Size has no bearing on CO2 emissions either. Other than it consumes more to make them. http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/actionnetwork/G1038


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## RS2K (26 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*



Gabriel said:


> By all accounts it's only going to get worse as they've (VW) made a decision next year to build the golf more cheaply (the new model).
> 
> Marketing is a wonderful thing.



Yep. They are dropping independent rear suspension and making other cost cutting measures. Advantage to the Ford Focus (which has had control blade rear suspension - and better ride & handling as a result - since 1998).


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## Firefly (26 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*

Dropping independent rear suspension won't make a blind bit of difference to sales. 99% of Golf buyers wouldn't care. 

Reliability is important when buying a car but not the be all and end all. I have a 318i. It has been to the garage twice for small jobs & service in the last 12 months...glad to pay the money for the better drive I get compared to my last 2 Nissans...esp on long drives when it sticks to the road. The oul fella has a Toyota and another relative has a newish Vectra and the materials inside both don't come close to what you get in a VW


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## PGD1 (26 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*

if you have more than 1 friend you will not be able to drive them about in an MX5, as great a car as it is.....


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## aircobra19 (26 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*



PGD1 said:


> if you have more than 1 friend you will not be able to drive them about in an MX5, as great a car as it is.....



That can be a good thing.



Firefly said:


> Dropping independent rear suspension won't make a blind bit of difference to sales. 99% of Golf buyers wouldn't care.



The Golf Mrk III and IV used to make me almost car sick they rolled and bounced so much. But I agree, sadly most people won't notice. 



Firefly said:


> Reliability is important when buying a car but not the be all and end all. I have a 318i. It has been to the garage twice for small jobs & service in the last 12 months...glad to pay the money for the better drive I get compared to my last 2 Nissans...esp on long drives when it sticks to the road.



That would depend on which Nissan you talking about. some older models were great handling cars and the current 350z not too shabby. 



Firefly said:


> The oul fella has a Toyota and another relative has a newish Vectra and the materials inside both don't come close to what you get in a VW



True, the germans usually make great interiors.


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## Gabriel (26 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*



Firefly said:


> The oul fella has a Toyota and another relative has a newish Vectra and the materials inside both don't come close to what you get in a VW



I disagree. They both make poor interiors. 

The difference is the Japs make really atrocious interiors and don't make any apologies for it.

How could anyone think VW make a nice interior?? It's incredibly dull and boring. They might be slightly nicer materials but they ain't that nice!!!

If you remortgage your house you can get stuff like an armrest though - woo hoo!!!


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## aircobra19 (26 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*



Gabriel said:


> ...
> How could anyone think VW make a nice interior?? It's incredibly dull and boring. They might be slightly nicer materials but they ain't that nice!!!



Its subjective thats its boring. What brand has better interiors?



Gabriel said:


> ...
> If you remortgage your house you can get stuff like an armrest though - woo hoo!!!



?


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## Gabriel (26 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*

Well there's many manufacturers that do better interiors - Ranualt for one. Alfa Romeo?!! 

Actually, BMW do nicer interiors too...and boring VW interiors is also a given from most reviewers and car mags. Even the Japs have upped their game of recent years. The looks of the Primera are debatable, and it's not exactly a wonderful drive or anything but at least they've been trying with the interior. It's a far cry from the previous model Primera in terms of interior pleasantness. 

Extras...that's how you make your boring VW a little more attractive. Granted this is the case for a lot of motors but VW are legendary for really giving you not that much at all for your hard earned cash until you've parted with a great deal more money for things like an armrest!


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## Firefly (26 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*

There's a difference between the stuff that comes with the car like armrests, lecky windows etc and the quality of the materials in the cars. VW are prob the worst for extras...their basic models are BASIC. The quality of their plastics and the solid drive the give leave the Jap cars feeling like tin cans though. It's personal preference though at the end of the day.

My own belief is that a lot of the more expensive german cars are co. cars so those driving them aren;'t concerned about reliability.


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## aircobra19 (26 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*



Gabriel said:


> Well there's many manufacturers that do better interiors - Ranualt for one. Alfa Romeo?!!



Bit tacky IMO. Not very durable are they though.



Gabriel said:


> Actually, BMW do nicer interiors too...



...and even more expensive for an armrest.



Gabriel said:


> ...and boring VW interiors is also a given from most reviewers and car mags. Even the Japs have upped their game of recent years. The looks of the Primera are debatable, and it's not exactly a wonderful drive or anything but at least they've been trying with the interior. It's a far cry from the previous model Primera in terms of interior pleasantness.



I wouldn't rate the current Primera. The instruments are offset in the middle of the car, which does nothing for the ergonomics, and putting themout of your sight lines. What else is different about the primera? Cheaper materials and bland. They made it worst to drive, the old Primera was a crackng drive. 

Result they've not sold well at all. Hardly a good example. 



Gabriel said:


> Extras...that's how you make your boring VW a little more attractive. Granted this is the case for a lot of motors but VW are legendary for really giving you not that much at all for your hard earned cash until you've parted with a great deal more money for things like an armrest!



Cheaper and less desirable cars need more kit to compete. More desirable cars don't. Its that simple.


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## aircobra19 (26 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*



Firefly said:


> ...
> My own belief is that a lot of the more expensive german cars are co. cars so those driving them aren;'t concerned about reliability.



I think most people don't know that much about cars. Fleet managers included. They just accept the marketing.


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## Firefly (26 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*



aircobra19 said:


> I think most people don't know that much about cars. Fleet managers included. They just accept the marketing.


 
Or maybe the odd kickback  

I had a 2002 Primera and had it back to the garage. They gave me the older 2000 model 1.8 and I didn't want to give it back....a far better drive. The central console in the Primera used to drive me crazy....interesting to see BMW opt for  a similiar iDrive wheel can't say I find it appealing


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## aircobra19 (26 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*

I think the center console, also on the Yaris is a nod towards manufacturing right and left hand drive verions. The new BMW interiors with the center display have been critised as being less than the more driver focused interiors of the earlier models.


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## Gabriel (26 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*



aircobra19 said:


> Bit tacky IMO. Not very durable are they though.
> 
> 
> 
> ...and even more expensive for an armrest.



Well no they're not you're right. So I suppose we're on slightly different platforms here. I'll give you that you're standard VW has better more durable materials...
But they're incredibly boring. At least an Alfa looks the part...even if all the buttons will break when you press them too hard 




aircobra19 said:


> I wouldn't rate the current Primera. The instruments are offset in the middle of the car, which does nothing for the ergonomics, and putting themout of your sight lines. What else is different about the primera? Cheaper materials and bland. They made it worst to drive, the old Primera was a crackng drive.
> 
> Result they've not sold well at all. Hardly a good example.



I wouldn't rate the Primera as a good drive either but they've sold very well...they're everywhere for god sake!!! Can't walk down the road for fear of tripping over one!



aircobra19 said:


> Cheaper and less desirable cars need more kit to compete. More desirable cars don't. Its that simple.



I'd agree with that if it were true about the basic Golf (if you're lumping that in with desirable cars)...but it's not.


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## Firefly (26 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*



Gabriel said:


> I'd agree with that if it were true about the basic Golf (if you're lumping that in with desirable cars)...but it's not.


 
The Golf is a desirable car (not by me btw). That's why they sell at a premium and have the lowest depreciation. I agree with the other posters - they are boring and you need to spend a fortune to get one that performs well.  

Same for the Polo...we had an old 97 one that used to drive me crazy...no power steering...put it on the paper and the phone was hopping. 

F.


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## aircobra19 (26 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*



Gabriel said:


> Well no they're not you're right. So I suppose we're on slightly different platforms here. I'll give you that you're standard VW has better more durable materials...
> But they're incredibly boring. At least an Alfa looks the part...even if all the buttons will break when you press them too hard



Well VW is a bit staid maybe. I think the passat is ok. 


Alfa 159 is ok not amazing or anything.




Gabriel said:


> I wouldn't rate the Primera as a good drive either but they've sold very well...they're everywhere for god sake!!! Can't walk down the road for fear of tripping over one!



I dunno I see far more of the old one than the new one. Don't even see that many taxi's driving them. TBH I see more Maximas as taxi's than the current Primera. Theres Golfs everywhere though. 



Gabriel said:


> I'd agree with that if it were true about the basic Golf (if you're lumping that in with desirable cars)...but it's not.



Desirable based on its sales figures. 

Incidentally anyone know where you can get a breakdown of Irish sales figures for different cars? Rather than just specific segments? I could find one when I was googling. I could get european but the Irish market is different. Overall in Europe they are thinking of dropping the Primera its sold so poorly. Sells better in Ireland though.


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## Gabriel (26 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*



aircobra19 said:


> Desirable based on its sales figures.



Okay...I see your point alright. But "desirable" is a strong word. If we're basing desirability on sales figures the Toyota Corrolla must be the most desired car out there 
I think people buy Golf's because they believe they're getting more than they actually are. The Golf has an image that it just doesn't live up to. I suppose that's what bugs me. It's not a bad car. It's an okay car...but very overrated and very overpriced. 
In saying that I like the new shape...think they look quite good. And the GTI is a savage little motor. 

The Alfa 159 is a great looking car and as good if not better to drive than the 156. It also has oodles of charisma...something a lot of Germanic cars lack. But as usual I'm sure the electrics are pants. If Alfa ever start building reliable cars I'll be first in line to buy one.


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## Firefly (26 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*



Gabriel said:


> If Alfa ever start building reliable cars I'll be first in line to buy one.


 
I'm with you on that Gabriel....We should petition Toyota. Alfa look and drive great, when they go.


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## CCOVICH (26 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*

2 years on and my 2002 147 and hasn't missed a beat. The 156 ruined their reputation.

My next car will almost certainly be a GT or 159.


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## aircobra19 (26 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*



Gabriel said:


> ....It's not a bad car. It's an okay car...but very overrated and very overpriced. ....



Hard to get a decent comparision as some brand the 3dr is more expensive than the 5dr. But consider the approx base model of the following...

New Alfa 147 €23,295
New 1.6 Golf €22,380

New 1.4 Golf €20,535
New 1.4 Focus €19,515
New 1.4 Astra _€20,420


_


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## KalEl (26 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*



aircobra19 said:


> Hard to get a decent comparision as some brand the 3dr is more expensive than the 5dr. But consider the approx base model of the following...
> 
> New Alfa 147 €23,295
> New 1.6 Golf €22,380
> ...


 
Hardly evidence of Golfs being overpriced.


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## Purple (26 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*



CCOVICH said:


> 2 years on and my 2002 147 and hasn't missed a beat. The 156 ruined their reputation.
> 
> My next car will almost certainly be a GT or 159.



I think the Alfa Sud did that...


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## aircobra19 (26 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*



KalEl said:


> Hardly evidence of Golfs being overpriced.



In fairness its not a direct comparision. Just the base models. The alfa is a lot more sporting and the astra a 5dr.


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## CCOVICH (26 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*

The 'base' Alfas almost certainly have a higher spec then the likes of Golfs or Astras, e.g. alloys, climate control, steering controls.  Aside from that, there is no 1.4 Alfa 147-1.6 is the standard.


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## aircobra19 (26 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*



CCOVICH said:


> The 'base' Alfas almost certainly have a higher spec then the likes of Golfs or Astras, e.g. alloys, climate control, steering controls.  Aside from that, there is no 1.4 Alfa 147-1.6 is the standard.



Indeed as would a base Punto or Stilo be better equipped. Value isn't dependent on the amount of kit though its it. Depreciation is a factor too.


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## Gabriel (26 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*



aircobra19 said:


> Indeed as would a base Punto or Stilo be better equipped. Value isn't dependent on the amount of kit though its it. Depreciation is a factor too.



Yep - I agree.

But I think it's easy to miss the point being made. 

Actually, as an aside, the Punto is a nice little car - but very unreliable.
Stilo is just crap fullstop.

But the point I'm making about the Golf is that it's over marketed. Perception is everything for the Golf. The Focus is a superior car yet probably still plays second fiddle to it's German neighbour.
And the Golf has a snob factor as well...something I've never understood!!
Only on looks perhaps does the Golf win.

People buy Alfas because they're beautiful and nice to drive. If you buy an Alfa for depreciation reasons you need your head tested.
I'd buy a Brera if I could afford it and it's not even that fast for 60k  But it's a seriously sexy looking beast of a car!

[broken link removed]


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## Gabriel (26 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*



CCOVICH said:


> 2 years on and my 2002 147 and hasn't missed a beat. The 156 ruined their reputation.
> 
> My next car will almost certainly be a GT or 159.



In fairness...the 147 doesn't get glowing reviews in the reliability stakes either.

http://www.whatcar.co.uk/news-special-report.aspx?NA=217350&EL=3142807

156 fairs better than it's younger brother according to WhatCar!

I do like the 159...not sure about the looks of the GT and I've read reviews which say it's not all that to drive either.


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## aircobra19 (26 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*



Gabriel said:


> ...the Golf is that it's over marketed. Perception is everything for the Golf. The Focus is a superior car yet probably still plays second fiddle to it's German neighbour.....



Funny you should say that....

[broken link removed]



> * FAMILY HATCHBACKS*
> * TOP SELLERS IN 2006*
> * 1. Ford Focus*
> * 2. Toyota Corolla*
> ...



Had a diesel focus on holidays recently, it was ok but nothing special.


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## Gabriel (26 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*

I stand corrected so. Ford have usurped VW


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## Firefly (26 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*

Can't understand why Opel didn't make a saloon Astra they seemed to have sold in big numbers here


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## CCOVICH (26 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*



aircobra19 said:


> Value isn't dependent on the amount of kit though its it. Depreciation is a factor too.


 
It is not the sole factor-but I consider climate control and alloys to be a must have. Depreciation is a big issue on new cars that have a poor rep, but it works in your favour when buying used.


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## aircobra19 (26 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*



Firefly said:


> Can't understand why Opel didn't make a saloon Astra they seemed to have sold in big numbers here



In all other markets the mid size saloon is selling poorly. Everyone wants a hatch back. Apparently.


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## aircobra19 (26 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*



1234 said:


> This is another Urban Legend like the VW reliability one. I looked at the Euro NCAP ratings for Small Family Cars, Roadsters and 4x4’s. There are 47 models of small family cars rated with an average of 3.7 stars, 7 models of roadsters with an average of 4 stars and 28 models of 4x4’s with an average of 3.7 stars. These results do not prove that if you are driving a 4x4 that you have any more chance to survive an accident that driving a small family car.



I never said SUV. I just said larger and heavier. Could be a larger exec saloon or a bus for example. Simply larger mass at the same velocity does more damage, than a smaller mass at the same velocity.   Or put another way.

AFAIK most of the safety tests use a constant mass against each vehicle or the vehicles own mass against itself in against stationary objects. Which is a ok baseline comparision. Especially for single vehicle accidents. They really only show what happens if a mini hits a mini, or a Bus hits a Bus. Not when a Bus hits a Mini. Big difference. 




1234 said:


> I will admit that you probably have a better chance of survival if you hit a supermini in a 4x4.....
> .....



Er, thats what I said.


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## aircobra19 (27 Jun 2007)

*Re: Volkswagen Beetle.*



1234 said:


> It’s not about whether you can afford to fill the tank. It’s about value for money.



A car is a luxury for most people. What do you mean?



1234 said:


> It’s misleading to think that size doesn’t have any bearing on CO2 emissions. .....



Maybe your right. I was kinda thinking its more to do with the engine design with new engines having lower CO2 emissions. Quite often new vehicles have old tech engines. So you have to look at the specific engines. 

Engine size does not corrolate with CO2 emissions in this list
http://cars.uk.msn.com/news/top_ten_article.aspx?cp-documentid=475361


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## Northerngirl (27 Jun 2007)

Thanks 1234. I will also be considering insurance groups when deciding which car to buy. The boot and storage capacity in the MX5 is a negative when it comes to the all-important shopping bags!


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## Firefly (27 Jun 2007)

Beetle won't be much better on the boot front!


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## aircobra19 (27 Jun 2007)

A Porsche Boxster has two boots!


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## Gabriel (27 Jun 2007)

Northerngirl said:


> Thanks 1234. I will also be considering insurance groups when deciding which car to buy. The boot and storage capacity in the MX5 is a negative when it comes to the all-important shopping bags!



Forget about the mini as well so. Smallest boot in the world!!!

You have a front passenger seat for shopping as well y'know


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## DrMoriarty (29 Aug 2007)

Easy!  Just win the lottery!


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## galwaytt (31 Aug 2007)

Dare I mention it, but the Hyundai Coupe.  Later ones nice looking, some with leather, 4 seats and a boot.

Oh, and good value too.

I would suggest the TT (see my name ......), but I'd have to be honest and say that I've had 2, and they are really, really nice.  But they do love garages, and statistically, they have poor reliablity.   Correction: in reality the DO have poor reliability.  I would put all A4's/A3's etc in the same box.  Fact: car failed NCT at 43k miles with worn front suspension.  Fact: car was recalled 3 times for various things.  Fact: Electrics, like ALL German products, are suspect.  Up there with italian.  Hold on, electrics in the TT are by Magneti Marelli in Italy............aaaah.

FWIW, I have a 1990 MX-5, which I've owned for 9 years.  Faultless is the only word to describe it.  The 2 TT's are gone, and the 911, but MX has outlasted & outvalued them.   It hasn't seen the inside of a garage yet, either.


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