# New land registry map showing large percentage of 'my' property not mine!!



## sideswipe (7 Aug 2009)

I recently sought clarification from land registry in relation to access to my house which passes over a right of way (through a vacant site). They updated the maps and folio's to include my name as having a right of way as a previous owner of the site where my house now stands was named on the folio as having right of way (he is long deceased). My family purchased the site in 1975, built a house in 1981 and the boundaries were set at that time. I have just received a new map from the land registry showing the boundary line running through a building (garage) on my property meaning the site is about 15% smaller than previously thought and half the garage is on the neighboring site, which has never been built on or maintained since the 70's.

I purchased the property from my Folks about 10 years ago and the solicitor that acted on my and my Fathers behalf never noticed this and all the other maps I have seem to indicate the current boundaries as correct.

Would anybody know what rights I have in relation to this (I assumed that the solicitor checked all these details when I purchased), what is the best course of action to rectify this?


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## Vanilla (7 Aug 2009)

This is becoming a common problem at the moment following on from the digitisation of maps. In some cases it is a PRAI error, in some cases when the old small scale maps are transcribed to the new digital maps in line with OS the boundaries are just different. First step is to go back to the PRAI and show them where the boundaries should be ( get your engineer to mark the correct boundaries on the original map) and ask them if there's been an error. If not an error you may need to lodge a simple consent of an adjoining owner to the boundary being rectified.


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## sideswipe (7 Aug 2009)

Thanks for the quick and helpful reply Vanilla. I don't know an engineer to mark out the site where is the best place to employ one? Would a local architect do this?


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## Vanilla (7 Aug 2009)

Ask your solicitor to give you some names and numbers. An architect would certainly do it for you but they might cost more than the local engineer or architectural technician.


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## Caveat (7 Aug 2009)

We employed an engineer for this 3 years ago sideswipe - from memory, it cost about €200.


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## Bronte (7 Aug 2009)

This is a bit confusing to me, if the OP has correct maps and deeds and the error is due to digitalisation, then should the land registry not sort it out?  If it's not and the property was not correctly transferred than surely the solicitor who did it incorrectly should rectify it.  

What is PRAI ?


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## Vanilla (7 Aug 2009)

PRAI= Property Registration Authority of Ireland which used to be known as the Land Registry.

And yes, if the PRAI have made a mistake they will sort it out, as they have done for a number of my clients. However in order to query whether there has been a PRAI mistake you need to send them a map showing where the boundaries SHOULD be.

It is highly unlikely that it is a solicitor error since the OP already said the old maps were fine. What is happening now is that the old maps were prepared by engineers on small scale old land registry maps and when these are changed over to the digital system they do not correspond with the OS maps, nobodies fault as such, just the old maps weren't accurate enough in small scale. Or you could say if it was anyones fault it was the fault of the engineer however many years ago that marked the first map.

The PRAI can't just assume that anyone who writes in with a new map are correct, they may look for the adjoining owner to consent. Otherwise anyone could try to 'grab' a few extra feet, or more!

Now errors are more obvious since the new maps show up buildings so you often see buildings too near or being divided by boundary lines and they must be corrected.


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## nuac (7 Aug 2009)

solicitors are not surveyors or engineers.   They usually advise a purchaser to have an engineer or other appropriately qualified person survey the property.  Check if there was one in that case.    

As vanilla says, the problem here might be digitisation.   The old Land Registry maps with boundaries marked with a thin red line were fine, but became cluttered in high development areas/


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## sideswipe (7 Aug 2009)

The old maps I have are pretty poor quality and don't show any buildings, I have some more up to date OS maps that do show buildings and boundaries as are at present. My main concern is that the new map from the Land Registry is correct and the site was marked incorrectly back in the 70's. So my main consideration now is finding out if the new map is correct. I am going to get an engineer to mark the site out and then contact the PRAI.

Is there a public office I can go into to have someone check things out for me? 
Or are these type of issues usually dealt with through a solicitor?


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## onq (7 Aug 2009)

We've worked with Land Surveys in the past.
22 Mellifont Avenue, Dun Laoghaire, County Dublin.
Gerry Kestell is the person to talk to on 01-2805212.

We have found them competent and diligent.
They work all around the country.

HTH

ONQ.


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## Bronte (10 Aug 2009)

Vanilla said:


> PRAI= Property Registration Authority of Ireland which used to be known as the Land Registry.
> 
> And yes, if the PRAI have made a mistake they will sort it out, as they have done for a number of my clients. However in order to query whether there has been a PRAI mistake you need to send them a map showing where the boundaries SHOULD be.
> 
> .


 
This might sound off the wall, would a google earth map be of any help with some of these issues?  I know it would be no good for measurement but it would be able to see where boundries are supposed to be.


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## Vanilla (10 Aug 2009)

Bronte said:


> This might sound off the wall, would a google earth map be of any help with some of these issues? I know it would be no good for measurement but it would be able to see where boundries are supposed to be.


 
I doubt it but who knows. The OP already knows where his land registry map boundaries should be- they should match the line of his physical boundary on the ground. They don't at the moment so he just needs to correct that.


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## j26 (10 Aug 2009)

sideswipe said:


> Is there a public office I can go into to have someone check things out for me?
> Or are these type of issues usually dealt with through a solicitor?


You can call into the public counters in Chancery St (part of the Four Courts complex, or Waterford (Cork Road).  If it's one of these counties you can go to either office - Longford, Carlow, Meath, Westmeath, Kilkenny, Wexford, Clare, Louth, Wicklow, Dublin, Roscommon, Kildare, Sligo, Cavan, Cork, Limerick, Mayo and Donegal as the maps are digitised.  If it's another county, you're better off going to the relevant office set out in the contact info, as the maps are still in paper form.
http://www.prai.ie/eng/Contact_Us/Land_Registry_Contact_Details.html

They're generally pretty helpful - if you can bring in a copy of the map attached to the original transfer it will help to see what the issues are quickly.  You could apply to inspect the instrument that contains the transfer and you'd have the original map there in front of you when you're at the counter, but if you're doing that, apply to inspect the instrument a week or two in advance to ensure it has been retreived from the filing repository.  The form for that is available on the prai website (Rule 188).


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## Bronte (11 Aug 2009)

J26 - That's great news that people can just call in and sort it out themselves without incurring any expense. 

Just to clarify something when you say instrument you mean the document that transfers ownership from one person to another I assume? The original map would be attached to this? Are you saying that people should come in with a copy of that map to compare it to the one attached to the transfer document (deed)


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## j26 (11 Aug 2009)

When an application for registration is completed the bundle of documents that made up the application is filed away forever as an instrument (the shelling of the Four Courts in the Civil War destroyed a lot of documents but no major disasters since then).  In the vast, vast majority of cases, the original deed is on the instrument.

It can be inspected by certain categories of people (set out in Rule 188), and can be taken up by the solicitor for the registered owner on accountable receipt if production of the original is required, say for court purposes.

I'd say mark out what you believe you have (or be able to point it out on the map and compare that with what you actually received in the deed (on the instrument, or a copy), and then compare that with what the PRA actually registered.  It'll give you a good idea of where the error occurred, and should mean a faster resolution.

Edit:  It costs €2.50 to inspect an instrument (€25 for a copy) and a few quid to do map searches (not sure how much, but it's in the order of €6) so it's not entirely free.


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## sideswipe (11 Aug 2009)

> You can call into the public counters in Chancery St (part of the Four Courts complex, or Waterford (Cork Road). If it's one of these counties you can go to either office - Longford, Carlow, Meath, Westmeath, Kilkenny, Wexford, Clare, Louth, Wicklow, Dublin, Roscommon, Kildare, Sligo, Cavan, Cork, Limerick, Mayo and Donegal as the maps are digitised. If it's another county, you're better off going to the relevant office set out in the contact info, as the maps are still in paper form.
> http://www.prai.ie/eng/Contact_Us/La...t_Details.html


 
Thanks for that j26, very helpful. i will seek to inspect the instrument to see if that sheds any light on the problem.


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## Bronte (11 Aug 2009)

I think j26's post should be a key post as it could help a lot of people having issues with the new digital registration system.


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