# Probate & related fees and expenses



## Strype (17 Mar 2005)

A few weeks ago I wrote about my situation and got some useful advice from a number of people, especially "90210".  
To briefly recap, I've always lived in the family home.  My mother died a few months ago.  Even though she left no will, there was an understanding between us I would get the house, as I had looked after my mother (and father) in their advancing years and my other siblings had all moved away and had homes of their own.  
Recently one sibling made it known they wish to claim their share of my mother's estate, which in effect is the house.  
I understand legally each sibling is entitled to an equal share of the estate.  In this case, what that could amount to is everyone else getting a cash windfall at my expense, if I have to buy them out to stay in the house I've lived in all my life.  
I consulted a solicitor and was given an estimate for probate at a minimum of €3500 plus any outlays.  I thought this sounded expensive as my personal means are very modest.  I know I need to get more quotes.
On this site I learned that it is possible to take out probate personally.  I have looked into that and am in the process of gathering the documentation.  I figure the solicitor would probably ask me to locate most of it anyway.  

Most of the documentation at the early stage is straightforward enough.  One of the things I have to do is to have the house professionally valued.  An auctioneer has quoted me a fee of €150 for this.  Does anyone know what exactly is involved in this official valuation and does €150 sound right for it?

Another requirement is to provide the PPS number of the deceased and all the beneficiaries.  That shouldnt be a problem and I know the probate papers are sent to Revenue.  I assume Revenue confirm there are no taxes due from the deceased but what do they do with the PPS numbers of the beneficiaries?  Are they all run through the system and cleared as well?

When I have gathered all this information, I must go for an interview.  Does anyone know what happens at that interview?  What kind of questions are asked and what kind of extra information might be required for the second interview?

Frankly it is all very scary for someone not used to dealing with solicitors and courts and officials and the like.  If anybody can answer one or all of my questions, it would help me a lot.  
Thank you.


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## ClubMan (17 Mar 2005)

Sorry to hear about the death of your mother.

In relation to personal applications for probate have you seen  which outlines the procedure?


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## Vanilla (18 Mar 2005)

Your mother died without a will, so you and your siblings are all entitled to a share of her estate on intestacy- but from what you say, you may have a much larger entitlement than a share on intestacy- ie an interest in expectancy or as a creditor of the estate- have you received legal advice on this?


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## Strype (21 Mar 2005)

*probate*

My thanks for taking the time to reply.

The Oasis site has been helpful.  It would still be good to hear what exactly goes on in these situations.  A lot of what goes on in these types of situations are sort of vague and secretitive.  Maybe it is just me reacting to the situation but I immediately feel on the defensive.

Vanilla, so far the legal advice I got didnt mention me possibly having "an interest in expectancy or as a creditor of the estate."  It was very much a straighforward stating of the equal shares for all siblings even though I outlined my personal position living in the family home.   

Can you tell me any more about the interest in expectancy position or being a creditor of the estate?  Sometimes I think solicitors and officials of most kinds like to treat ordinary Joe Soaps like the mushromms from the old proverb.

Any help from anyone would help me out.  Thanks again.


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## rose (21 Mar 2005)

*Probate*

Just a few questions that you should be prepared for:
Was your mother able to get around on her own or were in wheel chair – did you have a full-time job or were at home caring for your mother full-time.  Was your mother in hospital or a nursing home?  Did you benefit from your parents allowance ie free phone rental, free television licences, water rates, bin collections and allowance on electricity?  What were your contributions to the up keep of the property.     

The reason I am asking this is because my brother and his wife took the family home after my mother died claiming that it was of their right just because they had the privileged to live there rent free.  They benefited from all the allowance that my was in receipt of mentioned above.    My brother wife had full time jobs therefore also benefited from my mother being at home and able to babysitter for them when they wanted their nights out.  My mother was always there when the children came home from school as well as had all their meals cooked and any shopping that was needed.  She had a very good widow's pension and when she died nothing was left. My mother was not a person to spent on herself unlike her daughter in law.

When my mother did want a little bit of attention it was not long before a home was mentioned to her, which was the last thing she wanted.  She could not give any more therefore was not of use anymore to them so off to a home she went, which broke her heart.   She died shortly after she was put in the home.

Irish people are quite heartless to their own and that is a fact.  So be ready with the question that you maybe asked.  

I am sure your case is not the same but you should be able to say why you are entitled to the family home for yourself.


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## Vanilla (21 Mar 2005)

*Re: Mushrooms*

Well, AS a solicitor, I'm afraid I can't agree on the mushroom analogy!    Just like all professions, and jobs, you can meet good and bad- and sometimes the advice you receive is as a direct result of the information you give or dont give, so I won't comment on any solicitors advice given to date.

That aside, from what you've said,  there is a possibility that you may be entitled to more than your share on intestacy. If you came to live with your parent to take care of her on the basis that you would inherit the house then you may have a bigger claim to the house. BUT I would stress that you should now take independant legal advice, which should probably include counsels opinion. That means that you shouldn't go to a solicitor who also represents other members of the family as they will not be able to represent any of you due to the potential conflict.It also means that if you decide to go down this road I do not think under any circumstances that you should attempt to deal with the grant yourself- and of course you WILL have to pay legal fees.


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## oysterman (21 Mar 2005)

*Sibling rivalry?*

This is a really sad case.

Important here to treat the two issues you raise seperately.

Firstly, of course it's possible to do DIY probate and indeed it's a course of action that should always be considered where the estate is simple and there is no possibility of dispute (sadly, all too rare).

But given the issue that follows you should do absolutely nothing yourself. (Vanilla is on the ball as always.) You would only make a potentially difficult situation worse - inevitably provoking the sibling who wants their share.

The easiest way for you to inherit the house is for your siblings to formally declare they do not want to inherit. If there is only one other sibling (apart from yourself) who wants their share, there is a possibility that they might be talked out of it. (If there's more than one, you can probably throw your hat at it.)

How well do you and your siblings get on? Might one of them be in a position to persuade the others that you deserve and need the house? It's better than you doing it because _you would say that, wouldn't you?_

In any event, if the recalcitrant sibling is brought around to this way of thinking and all the others agree to renounce their rights also, it would be good practice for a solicitor to arrange the renunciation of their rights and to provide legal advice to them before they sign anything - ensures that the arrangement would be unlikely to be set aside if one changes his/her view.

If this is a non-starter, could a deal be struck which would give you a life interest in the property with their share passing to them on your death or on sale of the property? - I'm assuming that your concern is having somewhere to live, not being enriched. Indeed, you should not worry that you're suddenly going to become homeless - if it came to court this would be an unimaginable outcome.....it is possible, however, that you might have to consider moving to more modest accommodation.

This is only skimming the surface of the issues thrown up by your case - you need advice. Please go to a solicitor.


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## ClubMan (22 Mar 2005)

*Re: Sibling rivalry?*

*Firstly, of course it's possible to do DIY probate and indeed it's a course of action that should always be considered where the estate is simple and there is no possibility of dispute (sadly, all too rare).*

Not that it's relevant in this case but isn't it also possible to deal with an estate without going to probate at all? My father died a few years ago and everything was willed to my mother and there were no objections from any of the family and (barring the transfer of some _Vodafone_ shares into her name for which the registrar requires a _Grant of Probate_ or a _Small Estates indemnity form_ or something like that and which is still being sorted out due to procrastination on my part!) all assets were transferred to her name without any major hassle, legal intervention or costs. Are there any obvious drawbacks to dealing with things in this way?


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## rose (22 Mar 2005)

*family home*

In what sense do you mean 'take care' of your mother?  As far as I am aware under the law each sibling has the same rights unless you can justify that your mother needed taking care of and you did not substantially benefit financially from living with your parents?


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## rose (22 Mar 2005)

*family home*

In order to keep down legal fees you should write to all your bothers and sister and ask them to put in writing that they have no objections to you have their share of the family home.


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## Vanilla (22 Mar 2005)

*Need to take out a grant*

Hi Clubman, while a grant was not needed in your fathers estate, this was probably either because he did not own land or a house in his sole name, and any other assets in his sole name were below a certain threshold. When a couple own land or a house jointly as joint tenants then it passes automatically by survivorship to the survivor. However whereever land or a house is owned in a sole name it is ALWAYS necessary to take out a grant to pass on the title. Also if assets in a sole name are above approx 13000 then many financial institutions will not release funds without a grant.Even below this threshold, they may require revenue clearance.
In Strypes case, while it is feasible for him/her to personally take out a grant, she would face difficulties if claiming a greater entitlement than on intestacy- and in my opinion his or her particular situation warrants solicitors and possibly barristers advice.


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## ClubMan (22 Mar 2005)

*Re: Need to take out a grant*

*Hi Clubman, while a grant was not needed in your fathers estate, this was probably either because he did not own land or a house in his sole name, and any other assets in his sole name were below a certain threshold.*

Yes - that's correct. House in both parents' names and assets probably below some threshold.

*Also if assets in a sole name are above approx 13000 then many financial institutions will not release funds without a grant.Even below this threshold, they may require revenue clearance.*

Hmmm. I'd imagine that there were assets above this level but I don't know for sure. I do know that some sort of _CAT_ (?) clearance form was required from _Revenue_ in _Dublin Castle_ to deal with some of the asset transfers. Others just accepted the death cert or a letter from my mother's solicitor.

*In Strypes case...*

Sorry - I wasn't implying that in this specific case no probate might be feasible or a good idea. I agree that legal representation certainly looks necessary here.

Thanks.


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## Vanilla (22 Mar 2005)

*Oh and another thing...!*

BTW, if some one came in to me and asked me to deal with extracting a grant in a relatives estate in circumstances similar to Clubmans then I would tell them there was no necessity to extract a grant. I would also tell them that they could deal with it themselves or for a fee - which I would advise them of up front- I would deal with it for them. Most people I have met in these circumstances have preferred to have me deal with it for them- probably because I only charge a small fee in the circumstances and am used to dealing with these matters so can do so quickly and efficiently- and I have no problem with people dealing with these things themselves and would encourage them to do so if they want.


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## ClubMan (22 Mar 2005)

*Re: Oh and another thing...!*

Careful _Vanilla_ - you're in danger of giving solicitors a good name!


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## Vanilla (22 Mar 2005)

*Thats not a halo over my head....*

...its a custard pie someones thrown at me! :rolleyes


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