# Designing a Company Logo



## censuspro (3 Dec 2009)

Does anyone have any idea on the type of spend involved. Looking to have something designed that I can use for advertising, internet and stationery.


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## PaddyBloggit (3 Dec 2009)

what format are you looking for?


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## censuspro (3 Dec 2009)

PaddyBloggit said:


> what format are you looking for?


 
Sorry, what does that mean?


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## PaddyBloggit (3 Dec 2009)

censuspro said:


> Sorry, what does that mean?




if you want a straight forward psd image ... (can be saved as jpg etc afterwards) ... you can get one designed from $10 up.

It all depends on what you're after. If you want a stock image on it ... it will have to be purchased so that you can use it.


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## MissSherry (3 Dec 2009)

May I suggest you go to www.creativeireland.com and post your query there?

It's an Irish site that's frequented by plenty of out-of-work designers at the moment. I'd expect to be looking at a good bit more than 10euro though!! I'm speaking as a graphic designer. I don't think people realise the amount of a time a company brand takes to do, from concept to completion. You hardly think a graphic designer goes to college for years to get paid a tenner for a company brand?

I'm sure there are websites you can go to who will do you a very basic clip-art type logo for 10 euro but i don't know a designer in Ireland worth their salt who would do that, unless it was for charity. 

Like i said at the moment a lot of designers have no jobs so if you post what you're looking for here: http://www.creativeireland.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=20 and ask people to PM you with how much they'd charge you'll find they'll try to undercut each other and you could get a nice quote. Good luck.

ps you could also try that site www.tenderme.com and look for quotes there, it's very competitive at the moment.

edit: i'd also advise that you avoid anyone who offers to design a logo in Photoshop!! Adobe Illustrator should always be used so the eps logo can be applied anywhere. A jpg is not a good format for a logo.


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## censuspro (3 Dec 2009)

I'll give that a try. Thanks.


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## seantheman (4 Dec 2009)

why not try and get a local secondary school involved, maybe offer to buy some equipment for art class in exchange for designing logo


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## dubfella (4 Dec 2009)

You get what you pay for, don't spend €10 as Paddy says. If you pay €10 or even €100, 99% of the time you will get crap, a logo is the face of your business, cheap will make the company look amateur and cheap whihc you don't want unless you are Ryanair but there branding is calculated and designed to look cheap and I guarantee it cost a lot more more then €10 or even €10,000, its easy for people who don't understand design to use clipart but believe me it really is important to any business to look professional. 

If i was getting just a logo on its own without application I would expect to spend in the region of €800 but you could spend up to €80,000 if you go to a brand development company who will do lots of research and development, they are the people who design big brand logos like eircom.

Let em know if you need anymore advise.


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## seantheman (4 Dec 2009)

Aye, I was thinking myself that big squiggle above the eircom name must have cost around €80,000


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## Caveat (4 Dec 2009)

seantheman said:


> aye, i was thinking myself that big squiggle above the eircom name must have cost around €80,000


 
 Lol


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## Towger (4 Dec 2009)

If you are the HSE you will spend a small fortune, produce a booklet explaining the meaning between the different shades of green and red in the logo and then spend another small fortune as the Irish translation is wrong...


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## censuspro (4 Dec 2009)

dubfella said:


> You get what you pay for, don't spend €10 as Paddy says. If you pay €10 or even €100, 99% of the time you will get crap, a logo is the face of your business, cheap will make the company look amateur and cheap whihc you don't want unless you are Ryanair but there branding is calculated and designed to look cheap and I guarantee it cost a lot more more then €10 or even €10,000, its easy for people who don't understand design to use clipart but believe me it really is important to any business to look professional.
> 
> If i was getting just a logo on its own without application I would expect to spend in the region of €800 but you could spend up to €80,000 if you go to a brand development company who will do lots of research and development, they are the people who design big brand logos like eircom.
> 
> Let em know if you need anymore advise.


 
Thanks for the info. What do you mean when you say "without application"


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## Bob_tg (4 Dec 2009)

dubfella said:


> You get what you pay for, don't spend €10 as Paddy says. If you pay €10 or even €100, 99% of the time you will get crap, a logo is the face of your business, cheap will make the company look amateur and cheap whihc you don't want unless you are Ryanair but there branding is calculated and designed to look cheap and I guarantee it cost a lot more more then €10 or even €10,000, its easy for people who don't understand design to use clipart but believe me it really is important to any business to look professional.
> 
> If i was getting just a logo on its own without application I would expect to spend in the region of €800 but you could spend up to €80,000 if you go to a brand development company who will do lots of research and development, they are the people who design big brand logos like eircom.
> 
> Let em know if you need anymore advise.



For logo design, a more contemporary approach can be used via crowdsourcing over the web.

Censuspro - check out http://99designs.com/ for sourcing a logo designer.  You shouldn't have to pay much more than a few hundred dollars.


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## onq (4 Dec 2009)

On a separate but related note, if you intend growing the business, you might do well to ensure that the design does not infringe on any existing copyrights, patents or trademarks.

I'm not sure if design houses offer this sort of check as an in house-preliminary service, of it it has to be undertaken post-design, after you've parted with your money.

Again, this is probably not a service you'll get for €10.



onq.


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## MarysCross (11 Dec 2009)

You can submit a brief for a logo and you budget to 99designs.com and in turn you'll recieve a number of proposals.  You can provide feedback on designs untill your happy with the finished product.  

A proper agency will charge a few thousand.


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## censuspro (14 Dec 2009)

MissSherry said:


> May I suggest you go to www.creativeireland.com and post your query there?
> 
> It's an Irish site that's frequented by plenty of out-of-work designers at the moment. I'd expect to be looking at a good bit more than 10euro though!! I'm speaking as a graphic designer. I don't think people realise the amount of a time a company brand takes to do, from concept to completion. You hardly think a graphic designer goes to college for years to get paid a tenner for a company brand?
> 
> ...



I found a designer on Creative Ireland so thanks for the info. However I did get a bit of stick for not knowing what a "brief" was and for setting my budget at €400. One poster felt that they should decide how much I should pay. You can have a look at the thread here http://www.creativeireland.com/forums/showthread.php?p=290613#post290613


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## Bob_tg (14 Dec 2009)

As a matter of interest, would you be able to offer a reason why you didn't use 99designs.com?


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## censuspro (14 Dec 2009)

There was a few reasons:



I didn't like that I couldn't talk to the designers
The design I seen I didn't think were that good
I felt I didn't have any come back
The price was more or less the same for what I wanted
I wanted to buy Irish


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## onq (14 Dec 2009)

censuspro said:


> I found a designer on Creative Ireland so thanks for the info. However I did get a bit of stick for not knowing what a "brief" was and for setting my budget at €400. One poster felt that they should decide how much I should pay. You can have a look at the thread here http://www.creativeireland.com/forums/showthread.php?p=290613#post290613



Yeah, I had a look.

Hadn't been there before, maybe I'll lurk for a while.

Well done for finding them and I hope the person you retained does you proud.

As for some of the remarks, yes, Con is absolutely correct about the brief being the defining document.

But this also goes back to advice I and others have given elsewhere - perform a budget cost extimate early to ensure the product you are commissioning is affordable.

This applies equally to a logo design as to a house design.

And while you certainly evalute the product against the performance specification [the brief] you also evaluate it against the cost [fee].

FWIW

ONQ.


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## censuspro (14 Dec 2009)

Yes but I am not a designer I do not know how to write a brief. The comment he made about comparing my budget of €400 to telling the tax man he was only willing to pay €400 VAT was just ridiculous. A better comparison would be, go into a car dealer and say this is how much I can spend what can you give me for that price.


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## Complainer (14 Dec 2009)

censuspro said:


> Yes but I am not a designer I do not know how to write a brief. The comment he made about comparing my budget of €400 to telling the tax man he was only willing to pay €400 VAT was just ridiculous. A better comparison would be, go into a car dealer and say this is how much I can spend what can you give me for that price.


The biggest problem with setting a price like that is that it becomes the 'floor' - you won't get any proposals for less than that price.


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## censuspro (14 Dec 2009)

Complainer said:


> The biggest problem with setting a price like that is that it becomes the 'floor' - you won't get any proposals for less than that price.



In fairness, I wouldn't get anyone to do a decent design for less than that.


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## onq (14 Dec 2009)

censuspro said:


> Yes but I am not a designer I do not know how to write a brief. The comment he made about comparing my budget of €400 to telling the tax man he was only willing to pay €400 VAT was just ridiculous. A better comparison would be, go into a car dealer and say this is how much I can spend what can you give me for that price.



I'm not disagreeing with you in principle, censuspro.

He drew some fire for his comments  from other regulars on the forum if you recall.

However I think I know where he was coming from.
A possibly better comparison would be a guy wandering in to Louis Copeland telling him he was going to pay the price of an off-the-shelf Bests Man Shop item in the January Sales for a bespoke suit.
He might end up leaving the shop a lot quicker than he arrived!

At least I think that's what he meant.

However, much as I try to do in another forum on AAM for potential clients of the architectural profession [home developers self-builders and the like] you have to inform laypersons about the problems, costs and pitfalls of any undertaking they may be unfamilar with.

This includes explaining to them how they should go about procuring a good or service as well as explaining what needs to be done to achieve the standard they want as well as the reasons behind the cost of the item and any fees associated with it.

FWIW

ONQ.


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## Katman (14 Dec 2009)

I went looking for a designer to build me a website header and to design me a logo. I posted it up on a website called . Designers from around the world came back to me with proposals ranging from $50 and up. I'm still deciding on a designer. It's a good site. I've used it before. No complaints.


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## Vanilla (21 Jan 2010)

censuspro said:


> Thanks for the info. What do you mean when you say "without application"


 
I would like to know this too- also when you engage a graphic designer to create a logo what are you buying- the copyright? In what format should one expect to receive the logo?


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## hon3ymonster (21 Jan 2010)

You might also be able to try elance.com. A friend of mine uses them alot for getting websites made, Im they do logo design too.


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## onq (21 Jan 2010)

seantheman said:


> Aye, I was thinking myself that big squiggle above the eircom name must have cost around €80,000



Its all about the WAY it squiggles... Philistines!



ONQ.


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## flattea2 (21 Jan 2010)

I feel sorry for you censuspro, the way that thread on creative ireland disintegrated. I used to post to the site myself but stopped a long time ago as the regular posters are full of their own self importance and very quick to criticise anyone looking for help.

Anyway, I've used 99designs as well for 3 different logos with good results. The good thing is that you dont have to accept any of the designs therefore do not have to pay the prize if you are not happy (there is a small registration fee though). If you have no-one yet at worst you'll lose 20-30 euro on the registration fee.


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## censuspro (22 Jan 2010)

flattea2 said:


> I feel sorry for you censuspro, the way that thread on creative ireland disintegrated. I used to post to the site myself but stopped a long time ago as the regular posters are full of their own self importance and very quick to criticise anyone looking for help.
> 
> Anyway, I've used 99designs as well for 3 different logos with good results. The good thing is that you dont have to accept any of the designs therefore do not have to pay the prize if you are not happy (there is a small registration fee though). If you have no-one yet at worst you'll lose 20-30 euro on the registration fee.


 
Have a look at this thread. Demanding €65 per hour minimum and if you dont want to pay it then you dont understand their work and the importance of design.
The emperors new clothes springs to mind.


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## AlbacoreA (16 Feb 2010)

Logo design is a weird area. Some people think anything will do, a weird squigle, they saw in their pint, and others with spend a lot of time of effort getting exactly what they want. Thus it varies from free, to a few weeks or months work. Ultimately you are paying for someones time. The other point is that you don't have to "like" a logo if your clients like it and it works for the context its being used in. Too many spend too long finding something they like, rather than something that works. Perhaps even the one they like, their clients won't like, and won't understand or even doesn't work or can't be printed in the context its used. B&W, etc.

Its not financially viable to spend hours or days producing different designs for a pittance either. Somehowever will do that, as they want to build a portfolio, or use it as a loss leader. But in my mind thats a hobby not a business. That said theres nothing wrong with getting a few quid for your hobby, if you come up with something nice.


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## NorfBank (16 Feb 2010)

A quote I got just for comparison sake:

_If it's a simple isolated logo for a small business based on an idea you already have prices start at about €280 + VAT_

_A small branding project including design of stationery suite and basic brand guidelines with more design options costs about €900 + VAT_

_Larger branding projects where there's a greater market research element and more presentation requirements and more detailed branding guidelines would cost in the region of €2,000 + VAT_


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## Caveat (16 Feb 2010)

Problem is I think some customers tend to be of the mindset that designers are 'just fancy printers' and they are viewed with a little scepticism. 

Good designers are true artists and imagination, flair, logic, control, psychology etc all come into it.


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## AlbacoreA (16 Feb 2010)

Design in all forms is not always appreciated.


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## sinbadsailor (17 Feb 2010)

NorfBank said:


> A quote I got just for comparison sake:
> 
> _If it's a simple isolated logo for a small business based on an idea you already have prices start at about €280 + VAT_
> 
> ...



The thing to keep in mid about logo/web/print design is at the end of the day it takes x amount of time to produce what you are paying for.

A simple design process would be to take your general blurb on what you do, how you do it and try and extract some of the 'feeling' for your company. This kind of 'arty farty' process that most people will not get, is what decides typeface, color and other such things. Things that look easy, quick and 'just fit' to your eye, which is the result of a good design.

So in this example, some brainstorming time, plus time in a graphic design software package to actually create the logo for web/print etc and then the packaging and presentation of the finished product for you...well you can see that it is not just a 5 minute thing.

You pay a doctor €65 euro for a 15 minutes chat and simple prescription, what is so bad in paying a professional to produce a brand for your business that might take a day or two minimum?


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## censuspro (17 Feb 2010)

My problem was that one of the designers took exception to the fact that I had €400 budget. He felt that the designer should tell me what the budget was, he even went on to comparing it to telling the tax man that he only had €400 to spend.


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## AlbacoreA (17 Feb 2010)

Theres always one pushy sales guy who want you to spend more regardless.


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## censuspro (17 Feb 2010)

AlbacoreA said:


> Theres always one pushy sales guy who want you to spend more regardless.



It wasn't a sales pitch, have a look at the thread here


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## AlbacoreA (17 Feb 2010)

I read it earlier. I kinda meant its the same attitude as a pushy sales man, not that it was a sales pitch specifically. I had a similar experience looking for some work done in the garden last year. Found it very hard to get anyone to work to a fixed budget. Thank you Celtic Tiger. 

Some people aren't willing to compromise, especially in the creative industries. Sometimes it not profitable to do so. Which is fair enough.


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## JoeB (17 Feb 2010)

I think the prices are pretty outrageous.. keep in mind that it's not necessary to buy Irish, so I'm sure some Indian guy, or a Polish designer would work for a much lower hourly rate, perhaps 3 to 5 Euros per hour.

How many hours work are there in producing a simple logo? Five? Ten> Twenty? Saying 400 isn't enough seems to suggest that a qualified designer needs two to three days to design a simple logo.. that seems excessive to me.

In India I'm sure the hourly rate is 2 to 3 Euro.. so 30 hours work should be less than 100. Polish college graduates may be working in Poland for 300 to 400 Euro a MONTH.. I'm sure you'd get someone to design a nice logo for 100 Euros, he could spend three days on it and email you the results. What would he be doing for three days?, going though 500 iterations of the design?

Maybe I don't undestand the complexities of logo design, ...


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## DB74 (17 Feb 2010)

It seems that the designers view themselves as providing a service as opposed to selling a commodity.

You can't realistically go into an accountant and say I need my accounts done and I have €1,000 to pay you in fees. I mean you can but it's unlikely.

On the other hand you can go into Louis Copeland and say I have €500 to spend on a suit, what can that get me.


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## JoeB (17 Feb 2010)

Well, tailors also provide a service.. but if I asked a tailor how much he'd charge for taking up my pants, and he said 150 Euro.. I'd ask him how long he estimates it to take... and work out an hourly rate from there.. (I'd expect a tailor to take up pants for 20 Euro maximum, perhaps 30 Euro if very difficult, but as low as 5 to 10 if it's a school child's uniform)

I feel college design students would be expected to produce logo's, in exams, in 45 minutes or less.. so why does a professional need to charge 400, or 80,000?

I'd expect a designer to have template files, which would handle technical aspects like resolution, size, transparency, scalability etc etc..  or else he should be proficient enough to handle those aspects quickly, as in a few hours maximum.. after that he simply has to draw the logo... (and also a few hours I suppose to liase with the client, and additonal money to run the business etc, and other overheads.. but even still I don't see how 400 wouldn't be enough.)

As I say, maybe I don't fully appreciate the complexities of it all...


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## UFC (17 Feb 2010)

I outsource all my design work. I've had beautiful work done for $50.

The only difference between Ireland and Moldova are the wages. No point using an expensive Irish designer IMO...

I have about 6 years experience doing this and have never had a single problem.


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## sinbadsailor (17 Feb 2010)

AlbacoreA said:


> I read it earlier. I kinda meant its the same attitude as a pushy sales man, not that it was a sales pitch specifically. I had a similar experience looking for some work done in the garden last year. Found it very hard to get anyone to work to a fixed budget. Thank you Celtic Tiger.
> 
> Some people aren't willing to compromise, especially in the creative industries. Sometimes it not profitable to do so. Which is fair enough.



I think it kinda comes down to the old adage about honest days work and honest days pay. You workin the guidelines of your industry, which will have a upper and lower price limit. How you justify your place in that range depends on your work.

For anyone looking to get any kind of design work done, I would advise this.

Tell a designer what you would like as you see it in your head. Ask them for a portfolio of what they have done before. Take their quote and compare it to the portfolio. If you think that the two match, then you will get what 'you' think is value for money and the designer will get what 'they' think they are worth. Win win.


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## Caveat (17 Feb 2010)

DB74 said:


> It seems that the designers view themselves as providing a service as opposed to selling a commodity.
> 
> You can't realistically go into an accountant and say I need my accounts done and I have €1,000 to pay you in fees. I mean you can but it's unlikely.
> 
> On the other hand you can go into Louis Copeland and say I have €500 to spend on a suit, what can that get me.


 
I agree with this.

In answer to other responses - sure, you can get a logo for a few quid and sometimes that's all it takes. But maybe Eircom's 'squiggle' aside (or maybe not) surely not all companies throw away 1000s of euro for no good reason?

There are differences in image/perception/artistry etc - whatever. Sometimes a company just 'needs a logo' and if they are a small local company that doesn't need a global presence, that isn't trying to say something with their design, just have one, then yes, a few euro and 1 hour's work could well get them something they can use. It doesn't mean that designing a logo for a company who is looking for the aforementioned qualities is the same thing though.


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## paddi22 (17 Feb 2010)

I have worked on logos that ranged from 200 quid through to 15,000 and I'l explain the difference in price here for three typical examples

*Client A: Joe the plumber, needs a logo for his van and some flyers.*
I'd estimate it would take about an 2 hours to design up the logo, check it with him for changes, and put it into the format he needs to go on his van etc. In this case he'd get one or two logo options to choose from and thats it.If he rang me to ask for a quote, I'd suss out what he wants and give him a set price. A small trader who has complete control over their own company can usually make a quick decision and is easier and quicker to deal with. 

*Client B: New small company selling clothes online - want a logo for website, posters etc
Haven't got a massive budget and not sure exactly what they want.*
In this case the price can be a bit difficult to distinguish.
it depends on

• Is there a clear idea for the logo or is it something compicated they want to get across? If they want a logo of a cup with a smiley face, thats fine. But if they want to combine two ideas then it can take a while to think of a clever idea (but these kinds of logos are usually the cleverest and most memorable)

• Has the client researched competitors or do i have to do that?
This is important to make sure the logo isn't too similar to competitors and also to see what kind of impression the logo will give compared to others in the market.

• Is it one person making the decision or does it go through a large group? (more people means more revisions to the design and more delays)
If i know the main person is decisive and direct to deal with then i'l cut money off the quote. If someone won't make decisions or insists on 

• Do they understand exactly what they want for the logo? - if they don't communicate clearly then the process takes longer and costs more.

*Client C: Multinational bank *
A logo for these can go from 15,000 upwards and there is good reason for this.
• Endless meetings and discussions about what the logo should represent, the impression it needs to give people etc
• Massive amount of research needed to make sure logo doesn't infringe on any copyrights accidently
• Needs to be approved by several groups of people so much more time consuming
• Logos isn't just used for flyers. So design needs to work across tv ads, websites, mobile phones, everything!
• A style guide needs to be done up that can be sent to every employees who will be using the logo. This needs to be comprehensive so that the logo and branding look the same across the country and world.

You look at something like the O2 logo and there is a huge amount of thought behind it. its not as simple as saying its just an 'o' and a '2' together. In their ads even if you took out the logo they would still be recognizable with the bubbles and the blue gradient - thats a strong brand.

Even for a small company I would still vary the price on personal factors such as:

- If we are doing a lot of work for a person we would lower the price as part of a package deal. 

- if someone knows exactly what they want and looks like they will be straightforward to deal with we price lower. 

- I've priced lower because i have liked clients when i met them and wanted to work with them. If I liked their company idea I'd price lower to get the job and hopefully all the promo work that would follow. 

- we've priced lower because it was a prestigious job and wanted to get it as it would be great for our company portfolio. 

- we've done logos free for charity

- I priced higher because a client a client doesn't know what they want and what their brief is, and as a result I can imagine spending hours trying to guess roughly what they want. The warning sign is if someone says 'i'l know it when I see it!' 

The best thing to do is ask for a price off the designer and get them to break it down if you have a query. A client came back to me about a price being too high and I explained that included 3 design options, when they then said they would accept just one the price was lowered. Any good designer will happily break down their prices.


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## paddi22 (17 Feb 2010)

At the end of the day, it depends on what kind of quality you want to go for for your logo.

As a designer i have no problem with small companies going to polish or indian cheap websites if thats all they need and they don't have the budget.

But you are guaranteed to get what you pay for, and as the logo is sometimes the first and only thing potential customers see, then if it looks shoddy then it makes your company look shoddy. 

400 euro isn't a lot for a logo that you will have for life. if someone asked me to break down that price I'd happily explain the items involved namely


• 4 years spent at college
• 13 years experience in the industry
• cost of constantly updating software
• cost of updating machines
• higher rates, and utility costs here, that mean i have to charge more than foreign workers
• higher tax paid here 

It's horses for courses really. It's like going into a posh restaurant and saying 'this food is overprices, supermac do it for a fiver'.

I know it's difficult when trying to find new designers or web designers, but it's like anything else - do your research on their experience and portfolio and know what you're paying (or not going to pay) for


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## AlbacoreA (17 Feb 2010)

The worst is when someone doesn't know when they want. They think you'll spend days coming up with designs till they like one. I mean would you ask a house painter to keep painting your house till you like the colour?

Of course get it wrong ang you might to change all your stationary,and other branded materials. Even vehicles. 

Charging more filters out the timewasters. People make up their mind up quicker the more expensive it gets.


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## UFC (17 Feb 2010)

paddi22 said:


> At the end of the day, it depends on what kind of quality you want to go for for your logo.
> 
> As a designer i have no problem with small companies going to polish or indian cheap websites if thats all they need and they don't have the budget.
> 
> But you are guaranteed to get what you pay for, and as the logo is sometimes the first and only thing potential customers see, then if it looks shoddy then it makes your company look shoddy.


 
Ah give it a break.

The reason logos created in India or Poland are cheaper is because wages are much cheaper in those countries. Level of skill doesn't come into it at all.

If we believed your logic then we'd have to believe graphic designers in Switzerland are better than Irish graphic designers because they are better paid.

Your opinion on this topic should be taken with a pinch of salt since you have a vested interest in this topic (you are an Irish graphic designer).


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## sinbadsailor (17 Feb 2010)

paddi22 said:


> I have worked on logos that ranged from 200 quid through to 15,000 and I'l explain the difference in price here for three typical examples
> 
> *Client A: Joe the plumber, needs a logo for his van and some flyers.*
> I'd estimate it would take about an 2 hours to design up the logo, check it with him for changes, and put it into the format he needs to go on his van etc. In this case he'd get one or two logo options to choose from and thats it.If he rang me to ask for a quote, I'd suss out what he wants and give him a set price. A small trader who has complete control over their own company can usually make a quick decision and is easier and quicker to deal with.
> ...



Funny how the cost is proportional to the size of the company, and their ability to pay it.

I've never heard of a case where a massive company just said "wow, thats it, just what we want....3 days later it's there on disk....how much €750 please" 

But I do agree the cost is usually created by the client themselves as they do business according to their internal processes, so the likes of a bank will have stakeholders and group meetings so everyone can get their tuppance in and still come to the same simple conclusion. They create the environment and timeframe to complete the project and the designer goes with that


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## paddi22 (17 Feb 2010)

UFC said:


> Ah give it a break.
> 
> The reason logos created in India or Poland are cheaper is because wages are much cheaper in those countries. Level of skill doesn't come into it at all.
> 
> ...



When I said 'you get what you pay for' i wasn't only talking about the skill levels (which vary wildly)
I meant for your money you get a designer who:
• mightn't understand what you need because of language issues
• you get limited communication and no face to face talking or discussion
• you get a designer who doesn't understand the irish market or the environment you product will exist in
• you get a designer who doesn't have any idea who your competitors are, or what your place in the market is
• you get a designer who has completely different cultural ideas about colour and symbols (for example, red is a lucky colour in china, over here people associate it with danger)
• you don't see the logo in process so you could easily get a ripped off logo and suffer copyright issues down the line. (this happened to a client who came to us when his 'logo' turned out to be taken from a stock art site and he started getting lawyers letters)


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## UFC (17 Feb 2010)

paddi22 said:


> When I said 'you get what you pay for' i wasn't only talking about the skill levels (which vary wildly)
> I meant for your money you get a designer who:
> • mightn't understand what you need because of language issues
> • you get limited communication and no face to face talking or discussion
> ...


 
Never been an issue for me, and I've outsourced maybe 100 graphics jobs.


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## paddi22 (17 Feb 2010)

I happily outsource web development stuff all the time and have no issue with it 90% of the time. I have never successfully seen graphics work out-sourced for any kind of largish company's graphic needs. 

A designer not immersed in the companies market just cannot understand the elements needed to make a brand connect with an irish audience and be relevant. I'm not talking about very small companies tho, I'm talking about any company with ambitions to increase their profile and grow their company.


I have worked doing consulting with companies for years who outsource graphics projects and I genuinely think its more hassle than its worth
• takes too long to make what you need understood clearly
• no reliable communications - time zones can be a nightmare if there are deadlines
• anything requiring text content come back requiring more work to correct them than to do it from scratch. 
• the stock art and photography they use are never correct for the irish market, they always use cheesy ones that are too american looking
• just the hassle of not being able to sit on a designers side and make small changes quickly

I can appreciate maybe if its very low quality or cheap n' cheerful stuff it might be possible, but for anything else I just think its more hassle then its worth.


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## UFC (17 Feb 2010)

Can't say I've experienced any of that, although I would agree with you on two things:

Having a designer sitting next to you is great.
Having the designer in the Irish legal system (should things go wrong...) is nice insurance.


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## AlbacoreA (17 Feb 2010)

When you read this thread it demonstrates why theres no money in design unless its work on big projects, usually sourced outside of Ireland.


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## jack2009 (17 Feb 2010)

DB74 said:


> It seems that the designers view themselves as providing a service as opposed to selling a commodity.
> 
> You can't realistically go into an accountant and say I need my accounts done and I have €1,000 to pay you in fees. I mean you can but it's unlikely.
> 
> On the other hand you can go into Louis Copeland and say I have €500 to spend on a suit, what can that get me.


 
Preparing accounts and designing a logo are completely different.  Preparing accounts leads to the same answer so the amount of time required to complete the job is somewhat fixed.

Design, is different!  If I only had €200 I could get a logo designed granted not a lot of thought would have gone into it but it would still be a logo.  Also, I often wonder why people spend so much time and money on their particular logo's because to the average Joe Soap the meaning of the logo is to arty farty.

Out of interest, what about the likes of IBM, Microsoft and Apple their logo's are very simple, the companies have done very well but I would hardly think a lot of thought went into them.  But they are very easily identified.

If your budget is €400 stick with it give or take a few euros, no point breaking the bank.  If your business grows and becomes more successful then you can always do a rebrand later in life. I dont believe a logo alone will determine the future of your company.


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## AlbacoreA (18 Feb 2010)

jack2009 said:


> ...
> Design, is different! If I only had €200 I could get a logo designed granted not a lot of thought would have gone into it but it would still be a logo. Also, I often wonder why people spend so much time and money on their particular logo's because to the average Joe Soap the meaning of the logo is to arty farty.
> ....


 
I disagree. Even kids are brand and thus logo aware these days.


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## jack2009 (18 Feb 2010)

AlbacoreA said:


> I disagree. Even kids are brand and thus logo aware these days.



Yes of course but thats not down to the logo its more down to massive marketing campaigns and seeing the brand everywhere.  If someone is struggling to pay 400 on a logo you can assume they dont have 40 million set aside for advertising.


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## AlbacoreA (18 Feb 2010)

jack2009 said:


> Yes of course but thats not down to the logo its more down to massive marketing campaigns and seeing the brand everywhere. If someone is struggling to pay 400 on a logo you can assume they dont have 40 million set aside for advertising.


 
If someone spending 40 million on advertising their logo doesn't tell you its important, nothing will.


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## jack2009 (18 Feb 2010)

AlbacoreA, they are advertersing their product/service not their logo! How many companies have a squiggle etc as part of their logo yes we all recogonise the squiggle but how few people understand the logo.

Look at a company like say Dyson, we all know the brand etc. but it is very basis but apart from possibly a little bit of a tweek it is the same logo that looks like it was designed himself when he had little/no money and what money he had went into making the product development etc..

We know the logo not because it represents a good hoover but because the product works.

Look at places like PWC, they have loads of money and no doubt spent a lot of money on time deciding on the font etc. but at the end of the day its just "PWC" their services reputation etc. speak for itself.  Then compare that to say Grant Thornton who recently decided to put a purple donut before their name.  What does the purple donut represent and how has it actually helped them win work?


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## AlbacoreA (18 Feb 2010)

I think if someone sees a Nike logo on a T-Shirt they understand what that signifies about the shirt. Thats all thats required. 

Dyson himself is a designer he spent 5 years in art college. He was well aware of what he was doing. Indeed his marketing and branding, has been extremely well designed from the off. Hes gone beyond the logo to making all his products have the same look and feel, the same design. Thus in effect the products themselves are logos in effect. 

Personally I've not been that impressed by the Dysons I've used, and some boring normal bagged hoovers, work better in my experience. I suspect its a bit like the VW reliability myth.


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## jack2009 (18 Feb 2010)

AlbacoreA said:


> I think if someone sees a Nike logo on a T-Shirt they understand what that signifies about the shirt. Thats all thats required.
> 
> .


 
Exactly, so if Nike had of spent 10 seconds and decided that a pink and black dot was to be their logo and still marketed themselves the same way etc. and had the same products etc. they would still be where they are today.


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## jack2009 (18 Feb 2010)

AlbacoreA said:


> Personally I've not been that impressed by the Dysons I've used, and some boring normal bagged hoovers, work better in my experience. I suspect its a bit like the VW reliability myth.


 
So what if it is a myth the are still selling like mad, and it was not because of their break the mold colour schemes, it was their marketing campaign about being bagless and more efficient.


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## AlbacoreA (19 Feb 2010)

You keeping using examples of very successful companies who spend a fortune on graphic design, branding and their logos. Even to the point of designing their own font for the logo. 

Your point seems to be logos are very important.


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## paddi22 (19 Feb 2010)

jack2009 said:


> Exactly, so if Nike had of spent 10 seconds and decided that a pink and black dot was to be their logo and still marketed themselves the same way etc. and had the same products etc. they would still be where they are today.



Yep but they couldn't have used a pink and black dot for their logo. Look at their logo on any product - it's a brilliant shape that can go as small and large as needed, and still be recognisable as Nike.

It can be a white swoosh on a dark background, or a black swoosh on a light background and you can still see it clearly. It can be embroidered, work on a tv ad, or any medium they need it on. Thats why its a brilliant logo.

If the owner of Nike had come to any designer to say they had an idea for a pink and black dot, the designer would probably say that was a bad idea because
• 2 dots look stationary and don't represent speed, the nike logo currently gives an impression of movement and momentum
• its not recognisable at a distance
• when it goes down to a small size then people won't see it properly
• if you have it on a patterned sports shirt you won't see it
• a lot of other logos have dots and circles so it wont stand out
• a lot of technology companies use dots and circle so people might mistake it for that industry
• other companies have two dots (eg Mastercard)
• if its two-colour it will cost you more to use it on products (eg you'll need two colours for printing, two threads for embroidering it on runners)
• if its appearing in a grey-scale ad in a newspaper page, then the logo will just look like a black and grey dot, and won't look as strong or recognisable
• the swoosh logo can be put in any colour and still works. if you have a red football shirt and put a pink dot on it it will clash.

Off the top of my head, that's just a handful of reasons why two colour dots wouldn't work. designers are paid to sit down and go through all these problems that most clients aren't aware of fully.


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## AlbacoreA (19 Feb 2010)

The Nike logo was done along with a few other ideas by a graphic design student (Carolyn Davidson. for $35 or $2 per hour, which is 17.5 hours or just over two working days. This was in 1971. Thats about $190 in todays money. I find it interesting that Phil Knight who commissioned it, said at the time "I don't love it, but it will grow on me." So he could see that it worked as a logo, even though he didn't like it. This rarely happens with client getting logos done. 



> In 1983, Knight gave Davidson a diamond Swoosh ring and an envelope filled with Nike stock to express his gratitude


 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swoosh


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## AlbacoreA (19 Feb 2010)

The problem with logos, or any creative project. Is you could work for 5 mins and just strike it lucky with something that works. Or you might be at it for days and come up with nothing great. Its a bit like writers block.


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## paddi22 (19 Feb 2010)

Exactly.. it's like how Paula Scher was at a meeting to design the Citibank logo, and she sketched it out in a few seconds on a napkin. and the bank commented on how it is done in a second.

and she said 'But it is done in a second. it’s done in a second and in 34 years, and every experience and every movie and every thing of my life that’s in my head.'


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## sinbadsailor (19 Feb 2010)

AlbacoreA said:


> The problem with logos, or any creative project. Is you could work for 5 mins and just strike it lucky with something that works. Or you might be at it for days and come up with nothing great. Its a bit like writers block.



So a fixed fee would be logical for that then yeah. A logo costs €150 instead of charging time for scratching whatever


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## Caveat (19 Feb 2010)

If you are not artistic or into that side of things then you probably won't appreciate it.  At the end of the day you are paying for experience and expertise as Albacore & Paddi say.

A certain problem with e.g. electrics/plumbing that you assume to be a nightmare could be relatively easily sorted.  But only by someone who knows what they're doing and recognises the signs/symptoms. Therefore it seems like you are paying a lot for very little.

Again, is every company that spends 1000s on logos off their heads?
I doubt it. They do it because generally, there is a big difference between these and a logo for €50 or whatever.


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## AlbacoreA (19 Feb 2010)

sinbadsailor said:


> So a fixed fee would be logical for that then yeah. A logo costs €150 instead of charging time for scratching whatever


 
That would be fine if the client accepted one of the logos as is. Like Nike. But what usually happens is they keep changing it, not because of any technical problem but because they want one they like. But they don't know what that is, until they see it. But as you can see from Nike, liking it is irrelevent if it works. Works for the target market that is. Quite often the person commissioning it has no skillset or experience to make such a judgement either. 

The way to avoid that is to charge an initial fee per hour, or per iteration/modification. Which usually forces people to do their homework before going to the designer. otherwise people seem to be happy to waste time of a designer, if they are getting it for free. 

Time is money for everyone.

Personally I think is a fun thing to do unless you are working at it. From a profitability point of view logo design is a lot of hassle for not much money. 

Sometimes it works out. I remember two of us struggling with a design that just wasn't quite right. Until I decided to redraw it using a crayon on rough paper, and instantly we knew it was right. That used to make me laugh when I saw it afterwards on cars and TV.


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## paddi22 (19 Feb 2010)

Yeah I agree with that. While I enjoying doing logos they are the least profitable part of our business. I usually find that I end up spending weekends and nights thinking about ideas or what a good solution would be, and of course I can't charge the client for that.


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## Vanilla (19 Feb 2010)

I sourced an Irish graphic designer through Creative Ireland too. When I saw the portfolios of some of the graphic designers there I was very impressed.

I'm very happy with the logo designed and with the process and having been through the process I would highly recommend putting a thread up on CI to find some one Irish ( or living in Ireland).


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## jack2009 (19 Feb 2010)

AlbacoreA said:


> You keeping using examples of very successful companies who spend a fortune on graphic design, branding and their logos. Even to the point of designing their own font for the logo.
> 
> Your point seems to be logos are very important.


 
My point is that these companies did not become successfull because of their logo's.

Also, saying that they need to cost the earth, just eye catching, simple and meet the needs of the customer affordable to the client.

If you are setting up as a plumber you are not going to have a budget to spend thousands nor will you benefit from spending such money on a logo!

And if your business grows etc. then you could do a fancy rebrand.

Look at 3G mobile, its first few adverts on the tv were something like their logo and coming soon.  Great looking logo but the company still folded, not saying the logo had anything to do with the failure of the company but it did not make it a success either.


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## AlbacoreA (19 Feb 2010)

A logo is part of branding and advertising. They are tools to make money. If you don't think so, then you don't get it.


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## jack2009 (20 Feb 2010)

thats just it the logo is only 'part' of making money. So if i was starting a business on a limited budget im not going to spend all of my money on a logo let alone branding marketing!


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## AlbacoreA (20 Feb 2010)

I think its unlikely an accounting and tax consultancy startup would spend *ALL* their money on a logo. or that its *ALL* their budget either. You obviously don't believe logos add any value. Fair enough.


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## jack2009 (20 Feb 2010)

AlbacoreA said:


> I think its unlikely an accounting and tax consultancy startup would spend *ALL* their money on a logo. or that its *ALL* their budget either. You obviously don't believe logos add any value. Fair enough.


 
And you have done nothing to prove that a logo alone is worth spending a lot of money on either. Also, from comments like logo design being the least profitable work and examples of how much successfuk companoes have paid for the logos i am not alone.


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## AlbacoreA (21 Feb 2010)

Because thats a question for someone in advertising and marketing. Not graphics.


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## jack2009 (21 Feb 2010)

So after all of that your saying you dont understand yourself how much a business should set aside for a budget!


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## AlbacoreA (21 Feb 2010)

Common sense would suggest its not 40 million or *ALL* of a startup budget. Thats just nonsense. 

But that wasn't your question that I replied to. You asked about proving the worth of a logo. Of course its unlikely you'd only change a logo, usually you'd be changing more than that. But assuming you'd actually just change the logo on its own and nothing else. You'd have to see what the difference in business was before and after the change of the logo. Would you hire a graphic designer to put metrics on charting sales figures? or analyse them, I don't think so.

Hence its not a question about graphics.


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## AlbacoreA (21 Feb 2010)

I think when people get something for very cheap they can dismiss that its actually of value. I was once asked to work on designs for email newsletters. The client actually paid us to spend a couple of weeks (on and off) at it, till he got what he wanted. To me emails are free and cost nothing, and personally email adverts , I generally ignore, so i questioned the wisdom of spending so much time and effort and money on them. However the client reckoned every time he did one, his newsletter pulled in between 5 and 10k in sales. 

Incidentally he actually had a rebrand, and different trading name, and logo for different parts of his market. Ranging from budget to premium. Even in the emails and newspaper ads.


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## jack2009 (22 Feb 2010)

AlbacoreA said:


> I think when people get something for very cheap they can dismiss that its actually of value. I was once asked to work on designs for email newsletters. The client actually paid us to spend a couple of weeks (on and off) at it, till he got what he wanted. To me emails are free and cost nothing, and personally email adverts , I generally ignore, so i questioned the wisdom of spending so much time and effort and money on them. However the client reckoned every time he did one, his newsletter pulled in between 5 and 10k in sales.
> 
> Incidentally he actually had a rebrand, and different trading name, and logo for different parts of his market. Ranging from budget to premium. Even in the emails and newspaper ads.


 
Thats a nice story but nothing to do with logos!

If someone wants a logo and understands how to use it with branding etc. it will be used regardless of what it cost!


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## jack2009 (22 Feb 2010)

AlbacoreA said:


> Common sense would suggest its not 40 million or *ALL* of a startup budget. Thats just nonsense.
> 
> But that wasn't your question that I replied to. You asked about proving the worth of a logo. Of course its unlikely you'd only change a logo, usually you'd be changing more than that. But assuming you'd actually just change the logo on its own and nothing else. You'd have to see what the difference in business was before and after the change of the logo. Would you hire a graphic designer to put metrics on charting sales figures? or analyse them, I don't think so.
> 
> Hence its not a question about graphics.


 
But nobody would ever just change a logo so its never going to happen.


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## AlbacoreA (22 Feb 2010)

I'd say it unlikely not impossible. But, thats what you asked "logo alone". Perhaps some market research company has done a study along those lines. 

The story is indicates you might know the cost of something but not always the  value of it. Especially if its not expensive. I think this applies to logos as people are obsessed with the cost of them, and getting them as cheap as possible. You might be buying a cheap doodle, not a logo. Equally you might get a great logo for little cost. Its not linear.


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## jack2009 (22 Feb 2010)

AlbacoreA said:


> I'd say it unlikely not impossible. But, thats what you asked "logo alone". Perhaps some market research company has done a study along those lines.
> 
> The story is indicates you might know the cost of something but not always the value of it. Especially if its not expensive. I think this applies to logos as people are obsessed with the cost of them, and getting them as cheap as possible. You might be buying a cheap doodle, not a logo. Equally you might get a great logo for little cost. Its not linear.


 
Which brings us back to the OP not looking spend over €400 and that there is no reason why he/she should have to spend more than this if they do not want/afford to.  Also, a big spend does not necessarily mean a better logo.


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## AlbacoreA (22 Feb 2010)

Indeed. Its like anything. You could spend X on a product or service and it could be fine. You could spend 4 times X and it could be rubbish.


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