# Boundary Confusion



## geri (15 Feb 2012)

Hoping to be able to get some clarity on a boundry issue. 

We recently bought a property in an urban location.  The wall at the bottom of our garden separates our property from our neighbours back garden which backs onto ours.  

They are now claiming that the 2 meters in from our side of the wall is in fact not part of our property and is as they call it “no mans land”. 

When I look at the Urban Place Map scale 1:1000 that was submitted with a planning application for an extension on the existing house on the site, the Land Ownership outline runs right on top of the wall separating our two properties.  It also states that there are no wayleaves relating to the site.   

However, there is also a dotted line around  1mm  in from the wall on our side with CW stated beside it.  Could this dotted line the boundary?   

There was no mention of this in any dealings with our solicitor when we purchased the property.
Thanks,
Geri


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## aoc (15 Feb 2012)

Was there no_* land registry map*_ when the purchase was going through? Your solicitor should have this. Do not get involved with neighbours until you sort this out.


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## Guns N Roses (15 Feb 2012)

Maybe this extract from the Ordnance Survey Website may help?


*BOUNDARY MEREING (*[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]"description attached to a boundary") [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Under the 1825 Boundary Survey (Ireland) Act, Ireland was surveyed at a scale of 1:10,560 (6") on a Parish by Parish basis. These Parish maps are known as "Fair Plans". [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]As well as the Parish and townland boundaries being plotted on maps a description was written for each boundary. These are known as the "Boundary Survey Register", - name of Parish and these are available in the National Archives. www.osi.ie [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]The Ordnance Survey also kept "county area books". These divided up rural district, division electoral district, townland and barony. Each place was given a specific area, so that each townland has an area which when combined together make up a barony and then a county. Areas for each townland appear on the signed supplementary boundary sheet. The area also includes water and indicates whether it is tidal. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]When the townland boundary was originally plotted it was usually on a feature e.g. fence or a wall, so the mereing was then added to the boundary to become C.F. or C.W. In the Pale, the mereing usually is 6ft. (1.83m) from the boundary. This allowed for the land owner to maintain his fence and still be on his own property. If the feature changes e.g. the fence is removed, the boundary then becomes undefined. [/FONT][/FONT]​ 
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Examples of mereing are: [/FONT][/FONT]​ 
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]E.R. Edge of river [/FONT][/FONT]​[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]T.B. Top of bank[/FONT]
[/FONT]​[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]S.D. Side of drain[/FONT][/FONT]​


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## 44brendan (15 Feb 2012)

It's unclear from your post what exactly your neighbours are proposing to do. I.e. are they inending to hop over your boundry wall and have picnics on theis" no mans land" area,  or how is this claim effecting your rights to privacy and land useage? If it is just a minor dispute over a trivial issue I'm sure it could be handled with a little tact on both sides (i.e their claim really doesn't make any sense). However if it is a more serious issue where you need to send them a legal letter on the matter then you will need to go to the solicitor who acted for you in the purchase transaction for full clarification on the boundry and to legally asvise your neighbours to sease and desist whatever activity or claim they have in respect of this area of ground.
This will cost money, so ideal resolution would be an agreement that they respect your property boundry.


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## Guns N Roses (15 Feb 2012)

geri said:


> When I look at the Urban Place Map scale 1:1000 that was submitted with a planning application for an extension on the existing house on the site, the Land Ownership outline runs right on top of the wall separating our two properties.


 
The map submitted with your Planning Application is irrelevent. You should be looking at your_* Land Registry Map*_. Contact your solictor for a copy if you have not got one.


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## geri (15 Feb 2012)

Thanks for all the replies. 

I don't want to go into too much detail but we have  planning permission which allows us to build two meters from the boundary line.  

We think the boundary line is the dividing wall, they claim its two meters in from the dividing wall.  They dont want to use this two meters for anything, they just want us building 4 meters from the dividing wall.  I have a call in with solicitor to get the registration map and see whats on it.  

In relation to the interesting post from Guns 'n Roses, the neighbours did mention that there was originally an ancient wall running along the line where they state the boundary is (not there now), but if as is suggested below the property can be 1.8m further than this to allow for upkeep of the wall.  If the wall is removed, the boundary becomes undefined.

Geri


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## lowCO2design (16 Feb 2012)

geri said:


> In relation to the interesting post from Guns 'n Roses, *the neighbours did mention that there was originally an ancient wall running along the line where they state the boundary is *(not there now), but if as is suggested below the property can be 1.8m further than this to allow for upkeep of the wall.  If the wall is removed, the boundary becomes undefined.......
> Geri


you may want to investigate with a local archaeologist before you even break ground in the vicinity of this 'ambiguous boundary' in light of this your statement above


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## Guns N Roses (16 Feb 2012)

geri said:


> The wall at the bottom of our garden separates our property from our neighbours back garden which backs onto ours.


 
Could you clarify what kind of wall is the one that you refer to in your original post? Is it an old stone wall or new blockwork?


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## geri (16 Feb 2012)

The separating wall is a new type block wall about 8 ft high.  I'd say its been there for around 13 or 14 years when the neighbouring housing development was built.
I got the land registry map today from the solicitor.  The black hatch marking showing our property is not right up to the separating wall, but is right along side it with.  In reality on the ground, I'd say less 1 m.  (The map does say though that is non-conclusive when it comes to boundaries)  The old wall is not there any more although there are remnants of the old stone bricks that that formed it.  Ground has been extensively broken all around this area in the neighbouring houses and developments...think I'll leave the friendly neighbourhood archaeologist out of it for now - we have enough problems


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## lowCO2design (16 Feb 2012)

geri said:


> think I'll leave the friendly neighbourhood archaeologist out of it for now - we have enough problems


if you were to go ahead with the proposed building and ignore the neighbours boundary issue, this 'ancient wall' issue wouldn't come to the attention of the relevant authorities would it?


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## Billo (16 Feb 2012)

would Adverse Possession come into play as in :

[broken link removed]


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## Guns N Roses (16 Feb 2012)

lowCO2design said:


> if you were to go ahead with the proposed building and ignore the neighbours boundary issue, this 'ancient wall' issue wouldn't come to the attention of the relevant authorities would it?


 
The original poster said they have planning permission for an extension so the relevant authorities would appear to be happy with the situation. 

Geri, you should have a look at the planning file for the neighbouring housing development to see is there any mention of this "ancient" wall and whether this "new boundary wall" was build as part of that planning permission.


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## ajapale (16 Feb 2012)

geri said:


> I got the land registry map today from the solicitor.  The black hatch marking showing our property is not right up to the separating wall, but is right along side it with.



You should engage a competent surveyor to determine the extents of your property on the ground. And then talking to your solicitor before approaching you neighbours with a view to agreeing the boundary line.


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## geri (17 Feb 2012)

Thanks to everyone for your advice and suggestions.  I'll post back with an update.
Geri.


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