# School Principals: Leave Entitlements?



## irishlinks (4 Jun 2009)

Our local National School principal has taken this week off and gone on holiday. 

It's only 3 days - because of the Bank Holiday and the school is closed for the election (another sore point). With the long school holidays not far off - I can't understand how they would be allowed to take extra holiday. 

It is only a 2 teacher school - so a replacement teacher is in.  Does anyone know if this is normal practice. 

I had a look on the INTO website - and there is nothing I can see about extra holiday entitlement for Principals.


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## Hans (4 Jun 2009)

*Re: Do National School Principals get extra Holidays*

If she attends a course during the summer holidays for a few days she can reclaim the days during the school term maybe that is what she is doing. Great Job!!!


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## sam h (4 Jun 2009)

*Re: Do National School Principals get extra Holidays*

I think I recall hearing that they can take up to 3 personal days (for things like funerals, weddings etc).  But I'm sure some would see them as an entitlement & use them as holidays.


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## Welfarite (4 Jun 2009)

*Re: Do National School Principals get extra Holidays*

There is also the entitlement to 'force majeure' days, 5 per annum I think.


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## Ash 22 (4 Jun 2009)

*Re: Do National School Principals get extra Holidays*

Its a great job also when you have to listen to the rantings and ravings of parents who come in every other day with willy, nilly complaints. I can't believe how things have changed since my children were going to school, not too long ago. To think we'd approach the teacher over something stupid, not in our wildest dreams. Now its just incredible what some parents crib about. Teaching is a different job to what it used to be.


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## ophelia (4 Jun 2009)

*Re: Do National School Principals get extra Holidays*

I agree with Ash22, I would hate the job of Principal. Generally they work hard to keep the wheels of education turning.


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## stephnyc (4 Jun 2009)

*Re: Do National School Principals get extra Holidays*

I also think there may be a good reason why the principal is off.. "gone on holidays" could be an excuse given instead of discussing a private matter?


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## DeeFox (4 Jun 2009)

*Re: Do National School Principals get extra Holidays*



Welfarite said:


> So you never knew about teacher's long holidays before reading this thread then?!?


 
I didn't realise teachers could go on additional holidays during the school year too...

As it happens I really am changing career and will be starting the HDip in September - if you can't beat 'em join 'em!!


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## Mel (4 Jun 2009)

*Re: Do National School Principals get extra Holidays*

If it's a 2-teacher school then it's most likely that the principal also teaches. Being principal is no small job, there are huge responsibilities involved. As such, teaching principals are allowed a number of days covered by a substitute each year, in which to carry out duties associated with the principals role. I don't know how many days are allowed, but I covered for someone once who was away from the school for this reason.


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## Threadser (4 Jun 2009)

*Re: Do National School Principals get extra Holidays*

Strange isn't it, that the average Principal's job receives less than 4 applications from qualified teachers?  Those on the inside must realise that the job isn't quite as cushy as it appears!


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## g1g (5 Jun 2009)

*Re: Do National School Principals get extra Holidays*



chrisboy said:


> Never too late.. You can actually do an online hibernia course, qualify as a teacher and work your way up to principal!


 
ah but first you have to apply and get accepted and complete 18months of a course.


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## Ash 22 (5 Jun 2009)

*Re: Do National School Principals get extra Holidays*



g1g said:


> ah but first you have to apply and get accepted and complete 18months of a course.


 
You must also have a degree I think.


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## irishlinks (5 Jun 2009)

*Re: Do National School Principals get extra Holidays*



Mel said:


> If it's a 2-teacher school then it's most likely that the principal also teaches. Being principal is no small job, there are huge responsibilities involved. As such, teaching principals are allowed a number of days covered by a substitute each year, in which to carry out duties associated with the principals role. I don't know how many days are allowed, but I covered for someone once who was away from the school for this reason.



He's gone abroad with one of his children - it is not school related or a funeral etc.
I know it is a hard job - but they get good holidays too. I was just shocked that he could take extra ones in term time.


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## Welfarite (5 Jun 2009)

*Re: Do National School Principals get extra Holidays*



irishlinks said:


> He's gone abroad with one of his children - it is not school related or a funeral etc.
> I know it is a hard job - but they get good holidays too. I was just shocked that he could take extra ones in term time.


 

I don't think that you have the right to be prying so much into somebody's else's affairs. Would you like it if somebody was looking so clsoely at your private life? Accept that there may be very valid reasons why he has gone on holiday. As posters here point out, it's not a bed of roses. Perhaps he is suffering frofm stress and was advised to take time off? Perhaps he is owed time for painting/decorating/ out of hours works? TBH, I find your 'shock' a little bit hard to understand.


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## irishlinks (5 Jun 2009)

*Re: Do National School Principals get extra Holidays*

surprised maybe ?


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## so-crates (5 Jun 2009)

*Re: Do National School Principals get extra Holidays*

Honestly, I'm neither a teacher nor a principal but I can tell you that it is rare to find a principal who can simply down tools for two months over summer as soon as the kids are out the door and walk away from the school. Generally the summer is when mundane things get sorted out, things that can't be done during the school year. Maintenance, paperwork and preparation for incoming classes, there is no shortage of things that need to be done and can only be done out of term. They may not be required to be there for a full day every day but you'll appreciate that their busiest times are likely just after the school year is finished and before the next begins. It is generally even worse at second level since the schools tend to be larger and there are additional tasks that need to be done (timetabling, exams, managing preference choices for students, etc). I think it is deeply unfair that there is a deep-rooted impression in this country that there is a long holiday to enjoy - for principals in particular it is not so. The job attracts few applicants because it is hard work and a heavy responsibility.


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## PaddyBloggit (5 Jun 2009)

*Re: Do National School Principals get extra Holidays*

The Principal in question is only off with DES sanction.

All absences have to accounted for and the online system which does it is very accurate.

To answer the OP's original question ... no National School Principals do not get extra holidays (as one I can answer that with 100% accuracy). 

There are other forms of leave available to all teachers and the Principal in question will have to explain his absence to the online system using one of them.


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## Complainer (5 Jun 2009)

*Re: Do National School Principals get extra Holidays*



sam h said:


> I think I recall hearing that they can take up to 3 personal days (for things like funerals, weddings etc).  But I'm sure some would see them as an entitlement & use them as holidays.


How sure is sure?


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## Ash 22 (5 Jun 2009)

*Re: Do National School Principals get extra Holidays*

Usually when I pass my local primary school the teacher is still there, and this is anytime up to 2 hours after they close in the evening.


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## Complainer (5 Jun 2009)

*Re: Do National School Principals get extra Holidays*



Ash 22 said:


> Usually when I pass my local primary school the teacher is still there, and this is anytime up to 2 hours after they close in the evening.


When our daughter was getting into her primary school, we had calls from the principal on school business between 9pm and 10pm at night.


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## Marion (5 Jun 2009)

*Re: Do National School Principals get extra Holidays*

Default Re: Do National School Principals get extra Holidays



			
				 DeeFox said:
			
		

> I didn't realise teachers could go on additional holidays during the school year too...
> 
> As it happens I really am changing career and will be starting the HDip in September - if you can't beat 'em join 'em!!


 
It is only primary teachers who can get 3 days during the school term because they will have been obliged to attend a 3-day course during their contractual holidays.

This does not apply to second-level teachers. 

Marion


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## ClaireM (5 Jun 2009)

*Re: Do National School Principals get extra Holidays*



Marion said:


> Default Re: Do National School Principals get extra Holidays
> 
> It is only primary teachers who can get 3 days during the school term because they will have been obliged to attend a 3-day course during their contractual holidays.
> 
> ...


 

Actually they have to do a 5 day course during their holidays to get 3 days off during the year


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## Marion (5 Jun 2009)

*Re: Do National School Principals get extra Holidays*



			
				ClaireM said:
			
		

> Actually they have to do a 5 day course during their holidays to get 3 days off during the year




Thanks for that clarification.

Marion


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## PaddyBloggit (6 Jun 2009)

*Re: Do National School Principals get extra Holidays*



ClaireM said:


> Actually they have to do a 5 day course during their holidays to get 3 days off during the year




This is incorrect.

Attendance at a summer course is entirely at the discretion of the teacher. It's not obligatory but a teacher is entitled to 3 E.PV. (Extra Personal Vacation) days during the school year (with Board of Management approval) for attending a 5 day course.

*DES info on E.P.V. Days:*

Extra Personal                            Vacation (course days):

_Where a teacher has, during the school year, attended                            an approved course, personal leave may be taken subject                            to board approval, on the basis of three days for attendance                            at a five day course, four days for attendance at a                            course or courses of ten days' duration and a maximum                            of five days for attendance at a course or courses of                            fifteen days' duration.
_ 

_Where a teacher fails to attend each day of the course,                            entitlement to extra personal vacation will be restricted.
_ 

_Personal vacation may not be taken after 30 June of                            the school year after attendance at the course, or courses.                            Personal vacation may be taken in single days, or in                            groups of days. Absence on personal vacation on a Friday                            and the following Monday would only constitute two days'                            leave. Personal vacation can also be used for the extension                            of the week’s leave allowed for marriage. Where                            all the teachers of a school are entitled to personal                            vacation the school may be closed, provided it will                            otherwise be in operation for not less than 183 days.
_ 

_The Department of Education and Science does not provide                            substitute cover for teachers absent on course days,                            except in the case of one teacher schools._


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## ClaireM (6 Jun 2009)

*Re: Do National School Principals get extra Holidays*



PaddyBloggit said:


> This is incorrect.
> 
> Attendance at a summer course is entirely at the discretion of the teacher. It's not obligatory but a teacher is entitled to 3 E.PV. (Extra Personal Vacation) days during the school year (with Board of Management approval) for attending a 5 day course.


 
Didn't mean to suggest it was obligatory to do a summer course. Merely that the course had to be 5 days rather than the 3 days suggested by an earlier poster to entitle the teacher to 3 days off during the school year


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## Marion (6 Jun 2009)

*Re: Do National School Principals get extra Holidays*

PaddyBloggit

It was my mistake.

So:

A teacher in a primary school may (but is not obliged to) attend a 5-day course during their contractual holidays and in return they will receive 3 days during the school year.

Please note that many teachers may attend the 5-day course but may not in fact avail of the the 3 EPV. 

However some do.

Marion


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## PaddyBloggit (6 Jun 2009)

*Re: Do National School Principals get extra Holidays*

Exactly.

There's a pro-rata system in place .... as per DES info:

e.g do two 5 day course and get 4 EPV days. 

Personally I've done a course every year but often don't use my EPV day entitlement.


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## Marion (6 Jun 2009)

*Re: Do National School Principals get extra Holidays*

So you agree with my point: Not all teachers take the EPV day entitlement?

Marion


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## PaddyBloggit (6 Jun 2009)

*Re: Do National School Principals get extra Holidays*



Marion said:


> So you agree with my point: Not all teachers take the EPV day entitlement?
> 
> Marion




I do ... 100%


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## snowdaze (6 Jun 2009)

*Re: Do National School Principals get extra Holidays*

The teacher/principal is answerable to many people but not parents.  Rest assured that they are following procedure.  

Just to throw another spanner in  the works here....it screams to me that the person may have taken parental leave.....an unpaid entitlement .....leave the person alone....there are too many parents or even non-parents judging something for which they do not know the whole facts....public servants yes...but the public are not their boss!

It is such a shame that this person in question can not enjoy their time off without their right to do this being questioned on a public forum and perhaps all around their parish too....what is this country coming to?


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## ptp29 (6 Jun 2009)

*Re: Do National School Principals get extra Holidays*

Im not a teacher myself but have come from a family of hard working teachers and principals and I have witnessed the relentless hours worked by the principal during and after school. 

Living in a rural area, I see our terrific hard-working principal still in the school, some evenings till 7 o'clock and she never seems to stop! If it weren't for the hard work and sheer dedication of the principals in the country, who give up their lives for our children in their care, we would really have problems on our hands! 

In relation to the person who questioned the teacher being out for a few days....god only knows what she used the days for. All principal days are accounted for with the DES and perhaps you should find something a little less petty to be wasting your time on! 

My father worked as a teaching principal and rarely used up all of his principal release days and he should have. He gave up 40 years of his life for the school and community and these negative questions are a real slap in the face for him!

I would also like to point out that several teaching principal posts have been re-advertised around the country again this weekend as nobody is applying for them. 

That speaks volumes, does it not!!


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## ajapale (6 Jun 2009)

*Re: Do National School Principals get extra Holidays*

This thread is strictly for the discussion of the Leave entitlements of School Principals.

Off topic discussions about the teaching profession in general will be deleted.

Posters who want to rant about teachers / school principals can do so in LOS or on the many alternative boards out there.

Thread moved to  Work, Careers.


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## di74 (6 Jun 2009)

*Re: Do National School Principals get extra Holidays*



Welfarite said:


> I don't think that you have the right to be prying so much into somebody's else's affairs. Would you like it if somebody was looking so clsoely at your private life? Accept that there may be very valid reasons why he has gone on holiday. As posters here point out, it's not a bed of roses. Perhaps he is suffering frofm stress and was advised to take time off? Perhaps he is owed time for painting/decorating/ out of hours works? TBH, I find your 'shock' a little bit hard to understand.


 
Agree with this Welfarite. I'm a teacher and last year applied to the Board of Management to take 4 unpaid leave days to attend a family wedding abroad. It was granted a substiute paid and I took unpaid leave. Several parents commented on my tan etc when I returned..... It was a family wedding (i was entitled to one day off) and I took the rest of the time at my own expense.


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## Complainer (7 Jun 2009)

*Re: Do National School Principals get extra Holidays*



snowdaze said:


> The teacher/principal is answerable to many people but not parents.


This is not completely true. The OP could certainly raise this matter with the parents representative on the Board of Management for response.


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## PaddyBloggit (7 Jun 2009)

*Re: Do National School Principals get extra Holidays*



Complainer said:


> This is not completely true. The OP could certainly raise this matter with the parents representative on the Board of Management for response.



Untrue. A specific question about a specific teacher cannot be raised at a board meeting by any board member.


Parents' Reps on the Board of Management are not acting as individuals on the Board. The Board acts as a Board. Parents have a right to elect two representatives to the Board but the two representatives aren't answerable to the parents with regard to board business.

General issues can be brought by parents' reps to the board but specific issues cannot.

Each meeting ends with what's called an 'Agreed Report' ... which states what members on the board can report back to their respective groups.

Teachers/Principals are not answerable to parents. Teachers/Principals are answerable to the Board of Management and to the DES.

Issues with regard to teachers' conditions of employment/absences etc. are within the remit of the DES.


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## Complainer (7 Jun 2009)

*Re: Do National School Principals get extra Holidays*



PaddyBloggit said:


> Untrue. A specific question about a specific teacher cannot be raised at a board meeting by any board member.
> 
> ...
> General issues can be brought by parents' reps to the board but specific issues cannot.


Can you confirm your source for these restrictions?


PaddyBloggit said:


> Each meeting ends with what's called an 'Agreed Report' ... which states what members on the board can report back to their respective groups.
> 
> Teachers/Principals are not answerable to parents. Teachers/Principals are answerable to the Board of Management and to the DES.
> 
> Issues with regard to teachers' conditions of employment/absences etc. are within the remit of the DES.


The Education Act 1997 outlines the duty of the board as "to manage the school on behalf of the patron and for the benefit of the students and their parents". Where is the split of responsibilities between the Board and the DES coming from?


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## PaddyBloggit (8 Jun 2009)

*Re: Do National School Principals get extra Holidays*



Complainer said:


> Can you confirm your source for these restrictions?



Board of Management Member's handbook.



Complainer said:


> The Education Act 1997 outlines the duty of the board as "to manage the school on behalf of the patron and for the benefit of the students and their parents". Where is the split of responsibilities between the Board and the DES coming from?



The patron is usually the local bishop. The BOM runs the school under the auspices of its patron be it a bishop or otherwise but must still be mindful of DES rules and regulations.

DES directly inspects teachers' work, pays the teachers and sets conditions of service and in the case of the OP's question above determines whether or not the teacher in question is entitled to the time off or not. BOM doesn't determine this.

BOM employs the teacher but DES pays them. DES uses it to its advantage as was seen with the Kinsale school abuse case when the DES was found not to be culpable for the actions of the Principal in question.


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## Complainer (8 Jun 2009)

*Re: Do National School Principals get extra Holidays*



PaddyBloggit said:


> Board of Management Member's handbook.


Published by?


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## PaddyBloggit (8 Jun 2009)

Both the DES and the Patron's body produce handbooks for BOM members


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## Complainer (8 Jun 2009)

I don't see anything in the DES guidelines to support your claim that the BOM has no role in employment matters. Indeed, the manual states that "Difficulties relating to staff of a school are essentially matters for the Board of Management to investigate as the body responsible for the direct governance of the school and as the employer of the staff in the school". Can you be more specific about where in this manual this split of responsibilities is detailed?


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## PaddyBloggit (8 Jun 2009)

I never said that the BOM has no role in employment matters.

DES sets conditions of employment etc. BOM has a duty to ensure they are complied with within the school. If clarification is ever needed ... it comes from the DES.

All procedures followed by BOM have to be in line with DES guidelines and in line with accepted agreements between Patrons' body, DES and unions.


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## Complainer (9 Jun 2009)

No offence, Paddy - but to me you come across as obfuscating on this. I don't see any evidence in the DES publications to indicate that it would be inappropriate for a board member to raise the issue of a principal's absence at a BOM meeting for clarification. Indeed, there is a a specific responsibility of the BOM to communicate with parents outlined in the DES publication, so this could easily have been addressed by a simple notice in a newsletter (e.g. 'best of luck to Principal Skinner who is taking little Miss Skinner to compete in a father/daughter breakdancing contest'). 

If there is something specific out there that would go against this, please give specifics.


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## Brendan Burgess (9 Jun 2009)

Folks

We have moved well into Letting Off Steam. Continue the debate there is you wish.

Brendan


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