# How much do the banks owe the bondholders?



## Brendan Burgess (6 Feb 2011)

Has anyone got the numbers for this? 

I am referring to the bank bondholders and not the holders of sovereign bonds.

Forget, for the moment, whether it is a good idea to burn them or not, just focus on the numbers. 

I have been given these estimates as of the end of December 2010. The source is reliable,but they conflict with other figures

 Unsecured and unguaranteed debt


 AIB|€14.9
  BoI|€13.9
  Anglo|7.1
  Irish Nationwide|3.6
  EBS|1.7
  Total|41.2 
  Secured and government guaranteed debt



 AIB|€18.3
  BoI|€10.6
  Anglo|8
  Irish Nationwide|0
  EBS|1
  Total|37.8


----------



## Brendan Burgess (6 Feb 2011)

*How much to the banks owe the bondholders?*

Other sources of information

*Anglo total: €6.9 billion
*http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=151408I think that the figures above are correct and that the €6.9 billion does not include the €6 billion of government guaranteed bonds issued in 2010.


*Total Senior Debt of all the banks
*


> There is about €15bn of senior debt in the Irish banks. "A good chunk of that debt is in BoI," says Donal O'Mahony, of [broken link removed]. "The Government is a majority shareholder in BoI."


*Total bonds of all the banks - senior and subordinated*


> The Government could save about €29bn if it imposed a 'bail-in' on  bank bondholders.


That suggests that there is €15 billion of subordinated debt which doesn't look right to me.
*


Source: Sunday Indo article 6 February 2011
*


----------



## Brendan Burgess (8 Feb 2011)

On the Frontline last night, there was a graphic as follows: 



unguaranteed senior bondholders|20 billion
guaranteed senior bondholders|15 billion
Bank borrowing from ECB|100 billion
bank borrowing from Central Bank|50 billion
I don't know why they did not give a figure for subordinated bonds. 

The unguaranteed ones presumably date from before September 2008.

The guaranteed ones were issued since then with the benefit of a government guarantee. 

The borrowing from the ECB is all secured on home loans or other bank assets.


----------



## tvman (8 Feb 2011)

Didn't the banks buy back some/all of their sub debt recently (at a discount obviously), which they funded by issuing guaranteed debt. Anglo definately did and I think AIB & BOI did the same.
This would mean that the unguaranteed sub debt has now been replaced with guaranteed debt.


----------



## Brendan Burgess (17 Feb 2011)

Yet more conflicting statistics.

Séamus Coffey gives the following figures as of 12/ 2010 from a Central Bank source 

Total bonds issued by "20 domestic banks": €64 billion

Owned by Irish residents: €33 billion 



|total bonds| AIB/BOI/Anglo/Nationwide/EBS| others including ptsb|
Amount|€64|€50|14 |breakdown my guess
Owned by Irish residents|€33 billion |€25|7|my guess
Owned by non residents|€31|€25|7|
owneed by non-residents and not state guaranteed||€15||
So if we burn 100% of the bondholders in AIB, Bank of Ireland, Anglo, Nationwide and the EBS, we could save €25 billion as a country. 
If we burn 100% of the unguaranteed bondholders in.... we could save €15 billion as a country.
We we could get them to accept a 50% reduction, we would save €7 billion. 

We might be able to achieve this without a default by buying the bonds in the market. 

Here are the 20 Domestic banks
ACC Bank plc      
AIB Mortgage Bank*       
Allied Irish Banks plc*       
Anglo Irish Bank Corporation plc*       
Anglo Irish Mortgage Bank*       
Bank of Ireland Mortgage Bank*       
Barclays Bank Ireland plc       
Danske Bank A/S       
EBS Building Society*       
EBS Mortgage Finance*       
ICS Building Society*       
Investec Bank plc (Irish Branch)       
Irish Life & Permanent plc*       
Irish Nationwide Building Society*       
KBC Bank Ireland plc       
Northern Rock plc       
Rabobank Nederland       
The Governor and Company of the Bank of Ireland*       
Ulster Bank Ireland Limited       
Credit Unions


----------



## Brendan Burgess (18 Feb 2011)

On Prime Time last night, Michael Noonan suggested the following figures. Brian Lenihan didn't challenge the figures.



Subordinated debt|€10
Unguaranteed Senior Debt|15
Total|25These figures were given on the basis that FG would not burn the senior debt issued with a government guarantee.


----------



## Brendan Burgess (20 Feb 2011)

David McWilliams gives these figures in an article in today's Sunday Business Post: 



unguaranteed bank debt|€21 b
government guaranteed bank debt|€34 b
Anglo Promissory Note|€36 b
Total|€91 b(although he gets a total of €86 b)
.



Asset backed debt|€22 b
Grand Total|€113 b
I don't know where he gets these figures. The Anglo Promissory Note is €25 billion, not €36 billion. There is also €5 billion in promissory notes in Irish Nationwide.


----------



## dewdrop (21 Feb 2011)

No wonder the country is in a mess when there is no agreement on the sums we owe. Seems crazy.


----------



## Sunny (2 Mar 2011)

Looks like they listened to you Brendan. Nice work

[broken link removed]


----------



## Brendan Burgess (2 Mar 2011)

Wow!

I spent a lot of time trying to get this information together and now they publish it. 

Brendan


----------



## Brendan Burgess (4 Mar 2011)

I have set up a new thread for this now that the figures are published officially

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=152218


----------

