# Ireland - Its sinking ..



## Elk (19 May 2004)

Hi ..

I have been living in another EU country for 8 years and moved back to Ireland about one year ago. 

Bloody hell this country is a mess.   The roads are This post will be deleted if not edited to remove bad language, the health service is a disgrace, the culture has become greedy and my god the corruption!  Between all the tribunals, that child porn judge getting "let off" (and now Sharon Shannon with a one day late summons!). 

The drink culture, the house prices (and the lack of quality in the houses), the zero child care support, the zero paid paternity/maternity leave, the religious institutional abuse, the rich getting richer and poor getting poorer, the lack of public transport, the traffic and reliance on cars, the road accidents, the on-going problems in Northern Ireland, the crime lords, the street violence, the apathy in society with their political leaders, the lack of community spirit and the cost of living.

I still havent covered the bitching that goes on at work, the bullying and racism...

Every country has its postive and negatives and for the life of me I cannot think of any postive points with Ireland.  You hear people say "Ahhh 'tis a great place to bring up Kids"..  errr... Why?   The schools are falling to peaces our children are being taught how to forgo spritual values for materialistic values (communion money anyone?), our schools are still run in a Catholic manner where if you are a Muslim , Jew or God forgive us a Protestant you are treated as an outsider (because you are in fact an outsider in the Republic of Ireland unless you are a white Roman Catholic.)

Oh and not forgetting the title giving to this  land.. Rip Off Ireland ..

Anyway I can hear the Irish patriots now saying .."Why don't you just leave then?"  ..  Well that will most likely happen .. which is a real shame ... It really is..

Elk


----------



## stobear (19 May 2004)

But still, isn't it amazing how we get acustomed to all this? I get more a more depressed listening to the news everyday, and sometimes think I'll stick my head in the sand and it'll go away. But it wont, I know it wont and as long as everyone looks after their own little lot, then sod everyone and everything else in the country. If I lived abroad for that length of time Elk I dont think I would have come back especially if I was happy there and settled.? We are currently working in Dub and are making plans to head to Munster to escape the rat race, but who knows for sure if that will pan out. All in all, your post has depressed me even more, and me on a half day today!!


----------



## piggy (19 May 2004)

Which country have you been living in ELK?


----------



## Elk (19 May 2004)

*Letting off steam ...*

Well I felt like letting off Steam .. I lived in Sweden by the way ..

Anyway I didnt come here to "dis" the country. Im just finding it hard to take all this negative stuff.  Of course the postive side is that we are closer to our families and in general people are easier to talk to.  In the country people still seem laid back which is nice.  There just seems to be some fundleMENTAL   issues wrong here ..  

Anyway to add some balane I'll paraphrase something from Mitch Albom's book "Tuesdays with Morrie"..

"There are postives and negatives with every culture/country.  The important thing is to creat your own culture. Where you surround yourself with people who you love and who love you back"

I like that idea...

Elk


----------



## piggy (19 May 2004)

*Re: Letting off steam ...*

Sweden...you mean where everyone kills themselves from depression?????????????????

I'm not dissing your views Elk, but I lived abroad for a time too. When you come home it's always the same. It takes time to readjust.
Of course, some people don't and head off again.

I don't rule out the idea that I'll live abroad again someday...but I hope it'll be a small island with lots of sun and 25 hot naked chicks looking after my *every* need


----------



## stobear (19 May 2004)

*Re: Letting off steam ...*

I thought Norway had the highest suicide rate piggy?


----------



## ninsaga (19 May 2004)

*Re: Letting off steam ...*

Could be worse Elk - You could have moved back & settled in either Dublin or Limerick - then You would really have something to complain about :lol


----------



## piggy (19 May 2004)

*Re: Letting off steam ...*

Is it Norway? I was nearly sure it was Sweden. Something to do with the long dark winters and the amount of vodka they drink. 

Actually this list throws some light on that! Maybe the Sweden thing is a myth.


----------



## Humpty (19 May 2004)

*This country*

People feel disenfranchised.There is no-one out there who seems willing and able to put themselves forward for election, who will tell the truth, take the bull by the horns and run against all the vested interests. Who can fix it, who will stand up for them? The capable will not put out themselves out there. 

Most back benchers and TDs work for a) the good of their own backyard (see national lottery funding). b) the good for themselves and c) the good for whoever bank rolled them in the first place.

The vested interests, developers, unions whatever, do so much to stamp down anything that might progress the state that unless it is in some powerful corner interest, nothing will get done. 

They are not happy with good profits, they want super profits. 

Ordinary joes feel so powerless in the face of it all, they shut off and  concentrate on their own corner, where they can make a difference in theirt own lives. What's the point, you can shout and moan, but nothing will be done. 

People might think - vote for a differene - who is different - the Shinners? Once they get power, they also have cronies who'll want pay back.

What can be done, is there a holy grail, an honest person who would stand up and go for it? Set up a party of the decent and the good who will think for everyone?


----------



## Elk (19 May 2004)

*Suicide*

Thats a myth about Sweden by the way ..  Ireland is doing very well for itself in ever increasing suicide rates .. [broken link removed]

DIdnt you see Prime Time Investigates this week about the amount of people in Ireland taking anti-depressants..

Elk


----------



## Elk (19 May 2004)

*Litter ..*

www.aneki.com/cleanest.html


----------



## piggy (19 May 2004)

*Re: Suicide*

According to the table on [broken link removed] page, Sweden ranks fifth in the world suicide rates. Ireland is 16th.


----------



## Elk (19 May 2004)

*Suicide*

that was 10 years ago wasnt it?

Anyway I know Sweden is not perfect ... there is no denying the long dark winters are tough ...

Elk


----------



## piggy (19 May 2004)

*Re: Suicide*

I'm just trying to point out that it's easy to say Ireland is crap. We could probably sit here all day poking holes in Sweden though too.


----------



## Elk (19 May 2004)

*Would be more difficult to do Piggy ..*

Good health service, excellent health service, excellent quality of housing, 0% poverty, low crime (one of the lowest in the world), clean environment, excellent social policies (1 year paid maternity leave for mothers 30 days for fathers, at least 25 paid holidays per year), excellent public transport system, cost of living is actually lower there than in Ireland in 2004, cost of housing and value for money is better, exellent orangisation, excellent consumer protection laws ...


----------



## piggy (19 May 2004)

*Re: Would be more difficult to do Piggy ..*

I see...so if it's such a wonderful place, why the sucide rate?


----------



## Sean (19 May 2004)

*..*

According to the "cleanest country" link Elk posted the UK is cleaner than Ireland.

That's quite an accomplishment on our part considering they have a population which is at least ten times larger than ours!


----------



## Paul (19 May 2004)

*Sweden*

I have been living in Stockholm for the past 2 months and I have to say I have been comparing Ireland with Sweden and Sweden wins out almost every time. Its a super place to live. And yes piggy, I've seen loads of suicides since I arrived - I dont see how the suicide rate determines the quality of living for a country. I know its summer and the winters are supposed to be tough but its a small price to pay to avoid some of the BS at home. Those cold wet Irish winters are a joy alright !!
I lived in Vienna for over a year too. City of 1.5m - Dublin seems like a shanty town in comparison.


----------



## MrSunshine (19 May 2004)

*Re: Would be more difficult to do Piggy ...*

long dark winters...


----------



## piggy (19 May 2004)

*Re: Sweden*

You can check out this [broken link removed] report too on suicide rates per country. 

*"I dont see how the suicide rate determines the quality of living for a country"*
All I'm saying is if it's such a wonderful place why do so many people feel the need to top themselves?

I lived in Australia for a year. Everyone who went before said the same things. Oh it's wonderful. Sunshine all the time. It's much better than Ireland etc etc...
So, I went and lived there for a year. Guess what, it is a wonderful place. But it has downsides too...like everywhere. In the end I missed a lot of things about Ireland. Would you believe that Irish women were one of those things!!! There must be something wrong with me  

You might think Sweden is the bees-knees...but someone else wouldn't. You might think Ireland's crap...but most people don't. You should be able to recognise that.


----------



## Elk (19 May 2004)

*Piggy ...*

I do regonise that but you still have yet to offer a valid argument for living in Ireland.

What are the postive sides to living in Ireland?  You have not mentioned one single aspect.  You have just pointed out that every country has a negative side.  Which is true.  I have yet to hear you mention anything postive about Ireland ..

Elk


----------



## piggy (19 May 2004)

*Re: Piggy ...*

*"I do regonise that but you still have yet to offer a valid argument for living in Ireland."*

With all due respect Elk (and I mean that) that's a ridiculous question!!!

Standard of living probably only makes up a small part of why people live in a country. 
I live in Ireland for many reasons. A few of them might be, my roots are here: My family, my friends. I feel comfortable here. I like it here. There's a few reasons. That's more than good enough of a justification to not move abroad. 
You'll find most people give you the same answer.

Without responding to you with the response you didn't want. Why come home and moan about why anyone would not want to live here? Obvioulsy people *do* like it here. If you're happier in Sweden then that's wonderful...for you.


----------



## CM (19 May 2004)

*..*



> I have yet to hear you mention anything postive about Ireland ..



How's about this for a list of the things that make this country great:
1) Gerry Ryan, and his focus on discussing potatoes that look remarkably like genitals
2) Winning Streak
3) Quality papers like the "Sunday World" and the "Star"
4) Extremely well paid Government employees
5) Intellectuals like a certain North Kerry TD holding the balance of power in the country
6) Our Eurovision entries


----------



## Oz (19 May 2004)

*'stralia*



> I lived in Australia for a year ... But it has downsides too



Care to elaborate piggy? Just curious. Contemplating a move over there myself and I'm finding it hard to come up with negatives.


----------



## Elk (19 May 2004)

*Piggy...*

I respect your opinion that you wish to stay in ireland.  But there has to be a reason.  If your reason is that you have family and friends here well then thats fine.  I dont have family here and as for friends .. well it seems to me that a lot of people here only want to be your friend if you are into going out and getting hammered at the weekend.  We have made friends and its with people who have moved away and came back.  I guess we havemore in common.

It unfare of you to throw "Why come back and moan? about the place.. etc.."  I didnt come back to moan about anything.  I came back to Ireland because I thought it might be a nice place to live.  That people might be a bit more friendly and down to earth etc.  Well this in my experience does not seem to be the case.  Ireland has changed.

Also if you were coming back to a country where you had never owned a house and were wanting to buy one and the prices being so high. How can one feel good about that.

There some major things wrong with Ireland just now.  The Health Service is a disgrace!  You should be ashamed of it..  What have you got to be proud of in Ireland?  G.A.A.?

As for the argument of having your "roots".. That certainly doesn't apply to everyone.  There are plenty of people who feel unable or uncomfortable living in the country of their birth.

The main points of my post was  .. one to let of steam and two for people to help me perhaps to see the positive side.. I have yet to hear it..

Elk


----------



## piggy (19 May 2004)

*Re: 'stralia*

Honestly, it's kinda hard to because it's all so subjective. Australia is a really great place. I loved it.

Downsides that spring to mind immediately are - 
You're thousands of miles from your friends and your family.

But there's more to it than that. Maybe for me it was different. I lived in melbourne for 5 months, but I spent a lot of time travelling. I missed certain things...like I said, Irish women!!! :| 

:lol 


It's different for everybody. I found the Aussies not to my taste either sometimes...for lots of different reasons. I met some really nice ones though.


----------



## piggy (19 May 2004)

*Re: Piggy...*

*"The main points of my post was .. one to let of steam and two for people to help me perhaps to see the positive side.. I have yet to hear it.."*

If you feel you need people to tell why it's good to live here then you might as well move back to Sweden.

Ireland has changed. You'll either accept it or you won't.

I don't mean any disrespect in that...it's my open & honest opinion.


----------



## Elk (19 May 2004)

*thanks*

Thanks Piggy,

You've helped me a lot.  You don't seem to be able to give me an answer to Why should anyone live in Ireland?   Other than friends and family (which has nothing to do with a countries qualities) and the fact that your Oirish tru and tru ..

Maybe I will move back to Sweden but I tell you something this past year has been a real eye opener.

Your remark "Ireland has changed you can either accept it or not" was funny.  I don't accept the government building a big spike in Dublin while people die in hostpital corridoors without the respect they are due.

I do not accept people who were caught drink driving being "let off" because they are famous or have money.

I do not accept the blatent racism against immigrants that is prevalent here.

I do not accept paying taxes and not having basic services such as health and education working properly.

I do not accept the crass commercial, materialistic place Ireland has become.

I do not accept the mass corruption of our elective representatives.

And I do not accept the drink culture that cause so much strife in family and social life.

If that is modern Ireland. I do not accept it.  I have no problem leaving here.  Many people I know feel the same way.  That IS a shame ...

You should be asking yourself why people coming back to Ireland feel this way?  What can we do as a nation to improve life here?  The "THATS THE WAY THINGS ARE JUST ACCEPT IT ATTITUDE" is part of the problem.

It saddens me ..

Elk


----------



## Sean (19 May 2004)

*'stralia*

There's a great big hole in the ozone just above the country.  If I think of anything else I'll get back to you...


----------



## piggy (19 May 2004)

*Re: thanks*

*"You've helped me a lot. You don't seem to be able to give me an answer to Why should anyone live in Ireland? Other than friends and family (which has nothing to do with a countries qualities) and the fact that your Oirish tru and tru .."*

You sound a little miffed Elk. I was just being honest with you. I never said I was Oirish tru and tru.

I'm one of those people who chose to come back here by the way.

You seem to have made up your mind about the country so I'm even more puzzled as to why you'd want people to try to convince you to stay.

Do you think anyone *can* convince you to stay?

Incidentally, I'm also a little confused about you not accepting things. Fine, if you don't accept them it seems like you have two choices. 1) Try to change them or 2) leave.
Again, I'm not being smart...but it looks like you've already made up your mind.


----------



## Sean (19 May 2004)

*.*

Our health system a disgrace?

Sure all you have to do is pay an extra few hundred of euro per year (insurance) and then the health care professionals who would have been looking after the poor people will instead come and look after you.

Ah sure it's great.  It means you get excellent service.  

Though try not to feel guilty that the poor people have to wait (and die) while you get fast-tracked because you had more money to spend than them.  Peasants, who'd have them...


----------



## NathanielStarbuck (19 May 2004)

*Re: Positives*

I lived abroad for over 10 years and returned a few years ago. The main reason I came back is family, but there are other reasons to stay too. 

Firstly, and obviously, democracy and the rule of law. That puts us above about 60% of the rest of the world. Don't take it for granted.

Secondly, religious extremism is actually not an issue here (and don't talk about Northern Ireland - apart from a few Paisleyites nobody up there is actualy fighting over the divinity of the Virgin). The fact is that you can be openly atheist. Or Christian. Or whatever you want. That is not true in much of the 'free world'.

This is a beautiful country. If you're feeling low take the N11 from Dublin to Avondale and walk. Or stand on Killiney hill and look out towards Wales. Or stroll the pier in Howth. Or through the leafy boulevards in D4. I could go on for hours. 

The weather *isn't bad*. We don't have to worry about hurricanes, typhoons, wildfires or extremes of hot and cold. And we have seasons - which is a good thing - the tropics can be very montonous. 

There is a rich and deep sense of history, and people care about the past. 

I'm amazed when I hear about people say how bad Ireland has become. When I left in the early nineties it was a depressing shithole. Now we have (some) good roads, better public transport, some urban renewal. IMO Ireland has improved greatly and continues to improve. 

Yes there are awful aspects. House prices for one. Binge drinking culture for another. 

But at the end of the day, wherever you live, your life will mostly be defined by the job you do and the family you go home to. Aim for happiness there and you might find that the old country isn't so bad after all.


----------



## NathanielStarbuck (19 May 2004)

*Re: thanks*

Elk,

There are countries where corruption is a real problem for all members of society. In Ireland corruption is a real problem for some people, but an intellectual problem for most. 

And most people are disgusted by it and there are processes and efforts to rid the country of it. 

Try living in the Philippines if you want to know the despair that real endemic corruption can cause.

Rasicm is hugely overblown as an issue in Ireland. Most people are not rascist. Our institutions are not rascist. I have family of non-white ethnicity who have had no problems in this country. I also know people who were beaten up because they spoke with a Killiney, rather than Ballybrack, accent. Just because there are pychos in society it is wrong to describe the country as rascist - it's not.


----------



## maxhopper (19 May 2004)

lethargy​<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->-----------------------​<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->It's why the Irish remain in Ireland. Those that were led or fled to North America or Oz now live in co-operative societies. Not perfect societies, but desirable ones.

20 years ago this land was a lousy place to be. Then the EU lost its collective mind and handed the Irish clowns (oops, government) 39Bln euro. And with no need for funding an infrastructural budget, taxes were slashed. The Americans (ex-Irish, remember?) swooped in. Not to turn a profit in Ireland. Nooo! There wasn't and isn't an economy here. They realised that they could sell into Europe and show the two fingers to the continent by paying the rates in Ireland.

We attracted some American manufacturing (departing at the moment. Extra credit for those who know why!) and some call centres. Oh, I forgot the numerous accountancy positions. Not traders, consultants, M&A dealmakers, but bookkeepers.

The 39Bln euro was handed over to grasping landowners and farmers (who don't farm because the EU pays them not to) for roads (there's a progressive plan) and then nothing. The M50 will celebrate its 20th  anniversary as a work in progress.

And if by some perverse reason some Irish punters have a go at creating wealth and by extention, employment, the Irish psyche drives us to wish them ill. Sick and twisted is how I would describe that behaviour. And immature.

The next diaspora is upon us. The educated will flee (what have the returnees worked at abroad? Elk?) this time. The difference this time is that there will not be the same level of wages remitted.


----------



## piggy (19 May 2004)

That's a fascinating planet you live on maxhopper.


----------



## NathanielStarbuck (19 May 2004)

Jeez Maxhopper - you're right!!

I do hope that some benevolent force comes along and makes everything okay for us. 

Or maybe it would be better if we all just did the world a favour and jumped into the Atlantic; so that intelligent, motivated, lathargy-free folks could come alone and run the island properly.


----------



## maxhopper (19 May 2004)

To all the glib posters, you are displaying the exact behaviour of negativism that I described. None of you  can directly and adequately address Elk's question. And the reason is that there are no rational reasons to live here. The best and brightest have moved on. Silence me by naming an Irish person amongst us that is of world-class quality. And if you can only point to entertainment celebraties, then eliminate those that depend on US-, Oz-, and UK-based audiences and studios. The Englishspeakers on the planet account for but 400Mln. I want to know of people that create wealth, hope, and a future in Ireland.-----------------------​Don't tax yourselves too much. LOL


----------



## wavejumper (19 May 2004)

*maxhopper*

bang on.


----------



## piggy (19 May 2004)

*"To all the glib posters, you are displaying the exact behaviour of negativism that I described. None of you can directly and adequately address Elk's question. And the reason is that there are no rational reasons to live here"*

No max...the reason it can't be answered is because it's an unanswerable question. Especially as he's Irish in the first place. Sure...you could spout onto a non-national about some aspects of Irish life...but Elk is an Irish citizen.
Your last post was high farce max. Didn't even make sense.

I work in IT max...one of those fading industries in Ireland!!! Imagine that.

People choose to live where they do for personal reasons...reasons which would not make sense to other people. They're usually complicated reasons too.

No rational reasons to live here...give me a break :\


----------



## icantbelieveitstaken (19 May 2004)

The "next diaspora", where? We've managed (so far) to ride out a global recession with what is basically considered full employment. We've so many job vacancies that its one of the reasons we're the only country not stopping people from the accession countries from coming here to work. 
As has been said, in Ireland we have a pretty good standard of living where the pluses of city and country living can be experienced every day. The Irish quality of life is based around social values of being close to family and friends, feeling an affinity with the country and the genuine community spirit that exists no matter where you live. Being Irish is strongly related to knowing our shortcomings and feeling drawn together because of them. 
There's still a living memory of what it took for us to attain our nation and it reminds us that while it may not be perfect it was worth our grandparents blood struggle to acheive. We have a beautiful country, a rich heritage to be proud of, a strong sense of community and the will to try to make things better. 
Everyone seems to avoid saying that if you don't like it you don't have to live it but it's true and it's your choice. If you can't see any good in this country to justify playing a part in trying to make it better then return to your utopia. As someone who lives and loves my life in this country I don't see why I should be expected to convince anyone who thinks otherwise. I don't compare my life to that of other people in other countries because it isn't some competition where I'm trying to beat them. If you prefer life elsewhere then great for you but the logical question will always be why are you here if its so much better elsewhere.


----------



## Elk (19 May 2004)

*Shame on you piggy *

Now now what you said about max.. was a bit immature ..

Unfortunately he has 
a lot of valid points.  And that IS the point.  Do you not want to change things for the better in Ireland?  You can by not voting the same gobshites back in power.  You can by making small changes in your everyday life.  Being nicer to each other not cutting people off in traffic, no tail gating either!  Rise above this culture of materialism and build a fare and just society but it has to start with YOU.  If you as a citizen are not honest, try and fiddle the taxes then what hope for our politicians.

I do appreciate NathanielStarbuck's post  there is a lot of beauty in Ireland and we are not as over populated as perhaps the UK is.  We need to build on this though.  Why does there have to be so much traffic chaos on our roads?  WHy does there have to be so much money hemoraging from our hostpitals.  We can change it.  Thats what democracy is all about.

Elk


----------



## piggy (19 May 2004)

*Re: Shame on you piggy *

I'd have to agree with icantbelieveitstaken on his post.

Elk..

*"Do you not want to change things for the better in Ireland? You can by not voting the same gobshites back in power. You can by making small changes in your everyday life. Being nicer to each other not cutting people off in traffic, no tail gating either! Rise above this culture of materialism and build a fare and just society but it has to start with YOU. If you as a citizen are not honest, try and fiddle the taxes then what hope for our politicians."*

You seem to have moved into completely different territory here. No one would argue with these points...but again, where does this relate to your original question. I'm not saying you don't have the right to ask these questions.

BTW, we vote for the same gobshites every time because they're all we have. Read the rest of this forum for more on that.


----------



## wavejumper (19 May 2004)

*Elk...*

just to add my 2 cents...unlike you i'm not irish, i moved here about 9 years ago as I was well sick of living in Italy(Rome of all places).  9 years ago dublin to me was good fun, quiet, approachable people and the usual things foreigners like about oirland...the craic(beer) and all that...i guess in the last 9 years i've turned a bit sour like some of the guys in here as things like house prices, car traffic, vomit everywhere and the buffoons you have elected (twice!!!!!) have spoiled things somewhat....I still can't go home, I hate Italy, yea the sun is great, the food, the luvely girls...its still a stupid country, for me.  I  prefer living here...I guess you have to find it in yourself where you wanna be and stay there.  I don't think any of guys in here can tell you much about that...in fact I find in this forum you get some precious good advice on financial matters and practical things but pretty little else.  good luck.


----------



## Elk (19 May 2004)

*Defending Ireland ..*

Lets get a few things straight here.

1) I do not believe in a Utopia.
2) I am here (been back one year) because I believed the hype about Ireland being a young vibarant country where community still mattered.
3) I see very little of that in the city where I live.  Ireland has changed in that respect.
4) I came back with a very positive view of Ireland not looking for the negative.  I also realised there was a period of adjustment after being away for so long.
5) I'm sorry with the exception of  NathanielStarbuck none of you have given any rational arguments for livingin Ireland.  I'm sorry its not enough to say people have personal reasons.  Im trying to assertain some positive apsects of Irish society today.
6)  It does not matter if I want to leave Ireland or not.  Very few of you are interested in why? 

A big contributor to the social ills in Ireland today is apathy.  Nobody cares until it happens to them.  Nobody cares until its their son who gets knocked down by a drunk driver, nobody cares until  its their daughter who dies in a hostpital corridoor, nobody cares until its your childeren who have to be educated in unsafe buildings nobody cares until its YOU who is attacked in the street.  

Nobody seems to care until it happens to them.

Elk


----------



## icantbelieveitstaken (19 May 2004)

*Re: Shame on you piggy *

Quick point, democracy is not all about change, democracy is what we have. We've not been ruled by dictators for the past 80 years, we voted for our governments assessed the policies they pursued and voted again reflecting this. The status quo has been democratically voted for by the people of this country, I may not necessarily agree with it but I do respect the fact that this is how it works.


----------



## piggy (19 May 2004)

*Re: Defending Ireland ..*

Hang on while I put my Kleenex away.

I hate to be sarcastic (well, that's not entirely true), but you're Irish Elk. How long were you away? 25 years?

Sure Ireland has changed...but you already know what it's like to be Irish and live here. This idea that we haven't given you a long list of lovely things to make you want to stay here is laughable.

Oh well...it doesn't matter I suppose. The people who like it here will stay. The people who don't will move. That's the way it's always been.

Incidentally Elk, a lot of people on this board care about their country. I'm one of them. But I still like it here. Find your own happiness. If it's not in Ireland then maybe it's somewhere else.


----------



## Paul (19 May 2004)

*question*

Piggy, I think what we are trying to say is that if you could somehow move your family and friends to Sweden, Australia or Austria (for example), you would prefer to live in each of those countries than Ireland. I know that I lived in all three and found them better countries to live in than Ireland. The only thing that brought me home were family and friends and decent Guinness........


----------



## piggy (19 May 2004)

*Re: question*

I understand Paul.

It's a relevant question, but also a very personal one.

For me...honestly, no. I like Ireland.


----------



## Elk (19 May 2004)

*Thanks everyone*

Quote Piggy :
"Incidentally Elk, a lot of people on this board care about their country."

You have never said why?

You will not provide a list because you are not able to.

Anyway enough of this I've made my point and the point is I want the best for the people of Ireland.  You aren't getting it though ..

Good luck and thanks for the debate (I'd better go do some work in the real world before I loose my job and then I really will have to leave Ireland look for work elsewhere   )

Thanks again everyone (especially Piggy who kept the debate running)  

Elk


----------



## maxhopper (19 May 2004)

Ohh noo, *piggy*! Is the technology you use and deliver to Irish companies? Noo, they are American. And the VC that supported your employer in its formative period? Probably American. Ohh, ex-Irish. The over-inflated sense of self that is 'Irishness' dosen't wash in the world. The rest of the EU laughs at us. Even smallest the newest entrants, who by the way lost more lives and paid dearly than Ireland for their freedom, guffaw over the self-importance on display here.

And if Ireland carries on in its polluted, environmentally unsound, and generally arrogant posturing, it could well again become a crap place to be (read as *diaspora*).


----------



## piggy (19 May 2004)

*Re: Thanks everyone*

*"You will not provide a list because you are not able to."*

I did answer Elk...just not the way you wanted. I told you...it's personal.

I'll give you a small example. I love the Dublin mountains. Always have...ever since I was a child.
I just bought a house which overlooks them. So, I have the city right beside me and the mountains when I go home. It's little things like that make me tick.
I also love Dublin nightlife. It's fantastic.

All the things you love about a place are usually personal.

Good luck with your decision one either way.


----------



## maxhopper (19 May 2004)

Ohh noo, *piggy*! Is the technology you use and deliver to Irish companies? Noo, they are American. And the VC that supported your employer in its formative period? Probably American. Ohh, ex-Irish. The over-inflated sense of self that is 'Irishness' dosen't wash in the world. The rest of the EU laughs at us. Even smallest the newest entrants, who by the way lost more lives and paid dearly than Ireland for their freedom, guffaw over the self-importance on display here.

And if Ireland carries on in its polluted, environmentally unsound, and generally arrogant posturing, it could well again become a crap place to be (read as *diaspora*).


----------



## piggy (19 May 2004)

*"Is the technology you use and deliver to Irish companies? Noo, they are American"*

Nice use of colour max.

We're a small Irish start-up company providing software for banks...some in Ireland, some in Germany. No Americans in here I'm afraid.

Your views suggest that you hold a lot of hostility towards the world max, Ireland in particular. Maybe you shouldn't be living in Ireland either.


----------



## hooper (19 May 2004)

*.*



> How's about this for a list of the things that make this country great:
> 1) Gerry Ryan, and his focus on discussing potatoes that look remarkably like genitals



Very funny. I take it his lowbrow buffoonery has maintained it's broadcast standards in the several merciful years since I've been subjected to it. RTE always excelled in the mediocre.

Does Pat Kenny still get airtime?

Anyone mentioned scumbags yet? I think Ireland (Dublin and Limerick anyway) has an excellent stock of this vile species.


----------



## Oz (19 May 2004)

*A twist on the original question*

Just thought I'd get a little more out of this by asking people where they would rather bring their kids up. I should only probably ask this of people who have lived in other countries.  

I understand that it would depend on the person and their family structure (brothers, sisters, uncles, cousins). But that aside, base your answer on what would be best for your kids and their future - not you and the ties that bind you.


----------



## hooper (19 May 2004)

*.*



> Your views suggest that you hold a lot of hostility towards the world max



Now if you tell Piggy about your relationship with your mother I'd say he'll provide a full diagnosis.


----------



## niallymac (19 May 2004)

*Ireland of the welcomes !*

Big round of applause to Elk and all who have supported his views. 

I spent 8 years living in London, returned in 2002. The only reason I remain is my family and friends, and it is becoming marginal at that. I echo all the sentiments expressed by Elk, this place is turning into one big toilet.

Most of my gripes are already covered, if i can just add that the status of children in this country ranks somewhere below pets and material wealth. If you bring your young to a restaurant, they generally look at you as if you've turned up with a couple of urine covered vagrants ( one or to exceptions, but that seems to be the general attitude). General toileting/changing facilities for children are often non existant, and in the odd place where the wheelchair loo doubles as the baby changing facility, its normally covered in piss anyway and stinks. The cost of child care and lack of public provision for pre school child development programmes are a huge disincentive to work, and a double edged sword.  

blah blah blah I'm bored with my own complaints, nobody listens, political process in this place a waste of time, they really are only interested in feathering their own nest, local issues, what de paper might say.

And for all you smart asses who say I don't have to stay, your right I don't. But it is interesting that it seems to be mostly those that have lived abroad and experienced the alternative, that are positioned to make informed judgements on what ireland is really loike. I guess you'll always think its great until you can compare.

By This post will be deleted if not edited immediately, did I ever think I'd see the day where I was championing London over Dublin ! (sweaty summer tubes and trains apart )


----------



## Max Hopper (19 May 2004)

...but hey, piggy, you got yours so all the rest can piss-off. Right? Your 'Irishness' extends no further than your front door. And like soo many others here, you cannot answer a direct question. Why is that? Right or wrong, you should set an example and stand for personal accountability. Not the usual mealy-mouthed drivel we hear ad finitum ad nauseum.


----------



## wavejumper (19 May 2004)

*Oz*

not planning on kids but if it happened I'd prefer Italy for the schooling.  Mostly to avoid the drinking and drug culture prevalent in Dublin.


----------



## piggy (19 May 2004)

*Re: Ireland of the welcomes !*

*"But it is interesting that it seems to be mostly those that have lived abroad and experienced the alternative, that are positioned to make informed judgements on what ireland is really loike. I guess you'll always think its great until you can compare."*

That's an interesting point niallymac,

I've lived in Australia, America, Singapore for a short time, england.
I've also seen a considerable amount of the world. Last holiday was Brazil for 4 weeks.
Yet, I choose to live here...a truly informed choice. I have 5 close friends who've done similar...all living here now, 4 of them in Dublin.


----------



## piggy (19 May 2004)

*"...but hey, piggy, you got yours so all the rest can piss-off. Right? Your 'Irishness' extends no further than your front door."*

I'm sorry max...you've completely lost me! What are you talking about? Seriously. Where did I say anything about not caring about anyone except myself. 

That chip must be very heavy.


----------



## Max Hopper (19 May 2004)

Sitting in a corporate flat in Boston, San Jose, Sydney, or London does not constitute 'living' in another country. The other posters have described their breadth and depth of integration in other countries. I've got 7 years in Ireland. And your experiences are...


----------



## piggy (19 May 2004)

*Re:  Re: Ireland - Its sinking ..*

I'm sorry max...holding a rational discussion with you is just too difficult. You seem to want to make these sweeping fictitious remarks in every post.

I never lived in a fancy apartment in any country, nor did I live in Boston or San Jose.


----------



## Max Hopper (19 May 2004)

Here ya go...





> I just bought a house which overlooks them. So, I have the city right beside me and the mountains when I go home. It's little things like that make me tick.
> I also love Dublin nightlife. It's fantastic.


Got mah mates and da pub and don't need nutin' else. Some much for social fabric. You are another lost cause.


----------



## hooper (19 May 2004)

*.*

There have been seismic shifts in ordinary life over the last 15 years and it will take years more to adapt. We're not the poor cousins anymore for one. A campaign on social pride and responsiblilty would be government money well spent IMO. 
The day will come when people won't litter or urinate in doorways because the first passer-by will say something and not tell themselves it's not their problem.


----------



## icantbelieveitstaken (19 May 2004)

*Re: Oz*

There's some pretty aggressive piggy bashing being indulged in by the "Irish-abroad", the points have been made as to why Ireland's a good place to live. I don't question what right others have to assert that there are better places than Ireland but given that the "irish-abroad" are supposed to be best placed to judge it seems as if you're only trying to convince yourselves that you made the right choice. Just don't expect me to help you ease your conscience, I don't envy you your obvious indecision. It's a pity that your satisfaction with your choice has to be based on a comparison with how bad you think things in Ireland are and not by how happy you are where you are. The world can laugh all it likes, its a poor place if it spends its time looking over its neighbours wall congratulating itself that they're "considerably richer than yew".


----------



## piggy (19 May 2004)

*"Got mah mates and da pub and don't need nutin' else. Some much for social fabric. You are another lost cause."*

:lol  This is really hilarious max. Priceless.
I gave one *small* example of two things I like about living in Ireland and you take that as being in some way heartless. Truly, truly priceless.

Keep em coming max. This is the best laugh I've had all day.

Oh...must dash, my secretary just brought in my hookers for the afternoon.


----------



## hooper (19 May 2004)

*.*

_Post containing obscenity deleted by mad moderator_


----------



## maxhopper (19 May 2004)

For the listeners at home, *piggy*, tell us of your bonding with the Brits, Ozzies, Yanks, and Singaporians. I am certain the level of your experiences in other lands will be of great interest and a credit to your adaptability in extraordinary conditions.

Otherwise, zip it.


----------



## piggy (19 May 2004)

Max...you seem to be on some personal vendetta against me. Hilarious though that is I don't feel I need to share anything with you.

This post is not about me.


----------



## hooper (19 May 2004)

*.*



> Oh...must dash, my secretary just brought in my hookers for the afternoon.



7 minutes Piggy. 

Or maybe you like to post while on the job? That redefines geeky for me. Keep it up.


----------



## piggy (19 May 2004)

*Re: .*

*"Keep it up."*

Thankfully, that's never a problem.


----------



## hooper (19 May 2004)

*.*



> Post containing obscenity deleted
> 
> Edited by: rainyday at: 19/5/04 3:45 pm



Abuse of power as a joke or unhinged? We report, you decide.


----------



## hooper (19 May 2004)

*.*



> "Keep it up."
> 
> Thankfully, that's never a problem.



Thanks for recycling my pun, as em, a pun.

Also, you do brag about your lady skills a little old chap. I assume you are not 15?


----------



## Max Hopper (19 May 2004)

Don't flatter yourself, piggy. Enquiring minds want to know your qualifications in the area of living abroad with the emphasis on the living bit. Too many people can only mouth the words and cannot comprehend the meaning. Witness any event where a national anthem is sung. Most don't know anything beyond the first stanza. Makes watching Irish matches worthwhile when the camera pans to the crowd. Mumble, mumble, mumble.

So exactly (there is that directness again) what is attractive about Ireland at present? Say you are trying to sell it to a Czech manufacturer that will need to relocate 150 staffers that are paid 25K per year (professionals, like you.) Go! Sell Ireland!


----------



## guest (19 May 2004)

*ireland*

Sorry its not intelligent comment ,  but Elk is correct .

Ireland ( particularly Dublin , Limerick )  is a Sh*thole.

It has turned into a giant fun park for the rich  and / or the politicians ,  who can do whatever they want , and fix any social annoyance  that bothers them , and  screw the rest of the populace

Any other country would have had taken these  people to task , probably very violently  -  be we just sit here  drunker , fatter,  dumber and increasingly unhappier  as the country festers into selfish anarchy.

i'm sorry but Im out of here soon as I can .

Its a disgrace.


----------



## Elk (19 May 2004)

**sigh**

Quote:
...
our satisfaction with your choice has to be based on a comparison with how bad you think things in Ireland are and not by how happy you are where you are. The world can laugh all it likes, its a poor place if it spends its time looking over its neighbours wall congratulating itself that they're "considerably richer than yew".

"

Im afraid you've missed the point entirely.  Its not about being rich its about standards and ethics.  The STANDARD of public services in Ireland is a joke.  When people die in our hostpital, streets and roads due to say drunk drivers being "let off" due to the incompetence of the local police (or perhaps corruption) that is unacceptable.  

If you think its nice to live in a country where you have substandard medical care and education thats your business.  

I wan't going to post any more but I cannot believe the blind patriotism eminating from certain people on this board.  Wake up and smeel the coffee.. Ireland HAS big social problems.  I mean BIG.. Don't you care?

Anyway I'm finished with this thread.  It just saddens me that some people cannot see the wood for the trees.  Instead of being mature about this.  They resort to attacking statements like "What planet do you live on etc?"  

Have a little respect please. 

Elk


----------



## piggy (19 May 2004)

Max...I know I've talked to some of your other incarnations on this website before. The way you talk gives it away.

This is getting silly (as usual).

Elk was/is Irish. 

If you want to keep this conversation going, talk to someone else. I'm not interested in it anymore.


----------



## MissRibena (19 May 2004)

I kinda agree with both sides.  Nobody can convince me that this country should have improved an awful lot more in basic social areas (like health and education given) given the success we have had over the last ten years or so.  We don't have anything like the standards that some European countries enjoy, but our country is still so new and the investment was missing for so long that most other countries have had quite a headstart.  That doesn't take away from the fact that the present government has wasted lorryloads of cash though.

And this might be a democracy and it might be a lot better a totalitarian regime, but it's still a mess.  Just because it's not much worse than the situation in the UK and US doesn't make it ok.  The gradual erosion of political differences has seen us wind up with the lowest common demoninator politicians and combine it with the general trend towards industry-driven government and unsurprisingly we've ended up without a proper choice in a pretty materialistic society.  The so-called "choice" is a cod in reality; I have no idea who to vote for in the local elections.  Do you vote for the wishy-washy useless guy who might be reasonably corruption-free or go for the rogue who gets things done.  I take my civic and community responsiblities fairly seriously and have thought about going up for election myself.  But there's no way I'd do all the ass-kissing and how could I do it anyway when the payment is designed to reflect part-time work but I need full-time pay?  I reckon the whole system in this country needs a major over-haul .. I won't even start on the pointlessness of the Seanad.  I don't think decent people will go for politics until there are major changes or until enough time passes that the bad smell around it at the moment fades.

Sometimes I'm tempted by the cultural buzz in London but I don't think I'd move permenantly, even if I could uproot all my friends and family.  It's not about patriotism (which I think is another joke) or apathy. I'd sooner stay here and try to make it better than desert it like the proverbial rats on a sinking ship; even if all I can do is keep pestering local politicians and organisations to get their act together and trying to persuade everyone I know to take a more active role.   It's our mess, it's up to us to sort it out one way or another.  Maybe we have to wait for all the selfish people to go to Sweden or something before we can get on with it ... "ask not what your country can do for you ... etc"

Rebecca


----------



## Max Hopper (19 May 2004)

And with a dismissive posture (piggy) and a mechanic's shrug (MissRibena), we conclude this dreary segment.

Join us next time when we will take up again and fail to progess on the 'bash Johnnie Foreigner' topic.

Until then, I am Max Hopper.


----------



## sol (19 May 2004)

*mh*

You may be Max hopper but you're not as funny or as clever as you think you are.


----------



## hooper (19 May 2004)

*.*

I think he's slightly both. Better than vanilla all the time anyway.


----------



## Elk (19 May 2004)

*Selfish... Jeeze I hope not..*

wow! I liked your post until you said people like me are selfish!  

Anyway don't forget we came back and I came back with some great experience in my field to give back to Ireland. Experience I defineltly wouldnt have got in Ireland at the time I left Uni.

Im all for social change and that was my point in a previous post.  

Anyway I hope Im not being selfish to want the best for my children ...

Elk


----------



## MissRibena (19 May 2004)

No I don't just shrug.  I still do as much as I can within the current boundaries because I think the hardware is ok, it's just the operating system that needs sorting.  But in fairness, you do have a point; lots of Irish people can't be bothered to anything to make a change.  And it's very frustrating to hear people whinge when they won't even make a few phonecalls to make their opinion known.

You won't motivate the masses by calling them names or being condescending though, no matter how apathetic you believe them to be.  What exactly do you want in Ireland Max?  And what do you actually do to try and get it?

Rebecca


----------



## MissRibena (19 May 2004)

I don't have kids and maybe I would do the same Elk, although I hope not.  And I welcome people coming back and the influx of new people; the more the merrier as far as I'm concerned.  I believe everyone has something valuable to contribute to society (not just the economy).  

I think the "best" thing I could do for my kids would be to show them that they are not the most important thing in the world and that they have a responsiblity to everyone else (not just family)too by showing them how to participate in the community they live in and how to try to change things if they are not as good as they could be - not just up-sticks and move to the next bit of pasture.  Otherwise, won't you end up constantly chasing the greener grass?

Rebecca


----------



## shnaek (19 May 2004)

I haven't read this whole thread - but has anyone mentioned that Sweden is the free-est country in the world according to the UN?

I don't mean to put down Ireland either - but isn't Ireland all about :
sleep-commute-work-commute-sleep 
broken by :
drink-hangover-tv

for a couple of days in every 5?


----------



## piggy (20 May 2004)

*"I don't mean to put down Ireland either - but isn't Ireland all about :
sleep-commute-work-commute-sleep 
broken by :
drink-hangover-tv

for a couple of days in every 5? "*

If that's what you do with your life, yes.


----------



## shnaek (20 May 2004)

Unfortunately it is right now. Working 9-9. Driving 2 hours every day. Maybe I should just go on the dole! Are many people doing more than sleep-commute-work-commute-sleep?


----------



## hooper (20 May 2004)

*.*



> Sweden is the free-est country in the world



It's also one of the most socialist.



> If Sweden left the European Union and joined the United States we would be the poorest state of America.



[broken link removed]


----------



## Stakhanov (20 May 2004)

*live to work...*

I appreciate it's different for each individual, but my daily grind involves:

Up 6.20am - 40min drive to start work at 7.30am - finish work 7.30pm - home 8.15pm - in the nest by 12am

Come the weekend, not fit for much in the way of binding the social fabric that holds us together as a nation...

I am by no means the longest-working or longest-commuting in the office either.  

Why are we so hopeless at the whole 'work-to-live' balance?

S.


----------



## Elk (20 May 2004)

*This post will be deleted if not edited to remove bad language!*

Stakhanov:  This post will be deleted if not edited to remove bad language man my heart goes out to you!  I'm not based in Dublin and I can't imagine how I would feel if I had to commute like you on top of the issues I have already mentioned...  I wonder if the staunch defenders of Eire have to do such a commute!

Elk


----------



## hooper (20 May 2004)

*.*

Elk: You might want to edit the 'obscenities' out of your post before the Mad Moderator pops by and deletes the entire post, thread, and probably you too if he could.


----------



## maxhopper (20 May 2004)

With the majority promoting 'family' as the best feature of Ireland, I am beginning to wonder about the number of xenophobes on the island. And as for 'friends', just how did you meet them? School? Church? Clubs? Parochial environments, to be sure. And in the aforementioned venues, are not the vast majority same-minded? Well, there you are. You have no idea what makes a destination desirable if you have never left home. 

Attempt an integration in a foreign country (and for extra measure, a different language.) To be confronted with the 'Johnnie Foreigner' attitudes the 'tru and tru' Irish display is wearying. Hell, they exhibit the same herd mentality when on holiday. I never meet 2 Swiss together but the Irish cannot consider accomodation in Oz with other nationals. You'll always find 3 or more together while on the road. 

40 shades of *gangrene*.


----------



## MissRibena (20 May 2004)

I don't mean to be dismissive, but unless you view your career as the most important thing in your life, then spending so much of your time in the work-commute cycle is crazy - take some control back.  It's a choice; either move your home or move your job.  I'd sooner work in McDonalds on less money and have more time, personally.  And while I haven't gone as far as that, I did move out of a job that I felt was taking over my life.  The sacrifice was this job is less challenging and is a little further away but it's 9-to-5 with an hour for lunch and a 30 minute each way drive (proper driving, not the stuck in traffic carry-on).  I refuse to mortgage out the prime years of my life to work 12 hours days in the hope I might get a promotion depending on my ability to play the game or for a company who'd take off to Bangalore-du-jour at the first sign of decent wages.  

Max, too bad you didn't answer my direct questions.  I was genuinely looking forward to what you had to say.  I hear what you're saying about making friends, but I think that's a choice too - even in the sticks there are opportunities to meet different people from different countries, especially from countries gap-year students might not necessarily bother drinking their way through.  There's no excuse for being blinkered to other countries these day, regardless of whether you are lucky enough to live in another country at some stage (you can't live in them all anyway).

Rebecca


----------



## piggy (20 May 2004)

*Re: This post will be deleted if not edited to remove bad language!*

*"I'm not based in Dublin and I can't imagine how I would feel if I had to commute like you on top of the issues I have already mentioned... I wonder if the staunch defenders of Eire have to do such a commute!"*

I have a 40 minute commute in the morning and about an hour in the evening. 

*"With the majority promoting 'family' as the best feature of Ireland, I am beginning to wonder about the number of xenophobes on the island. And as for 'friends', just how did you meet them? School? Church? Clubs? Parochial environments, to be sure. And in the aforementioned venues, are not the vast majority same-minded? Well, there you are. You have no idea what makes a destination desirable if you have never left home. 

Attempt an integration in a foreign country (and for extra measure, a different language.) To be confronted with the 'Johnnie Foreigner' attitudes the 'tru and tru' Irish display is wearying. Hell, they exhibit the same herd mentality when on holiday. I never meet 2 Swiss together but the Irish cannot consider accomodation in Oz with other nationals. You'll always find 3 or more together while on the road. 

40 shades of gangrene. "*

This is beginning to get pathethic because anybody who defends living here is getting slagged off for doing so.

Are you Irish max?

That chip just keeps getting bigger and bigger doesn't it.

By all accounts max anybody who likes living here should feel ashamed for doing so by your bitter, twisted and unhappy logic.

What started off as a reasonable debate has turned completely farcical. I keep asking myself the same question, over and over and over. Why don't you go live somewhere else where your life isn't so crap?

Or is it just that you don't enjoy your life and it's easy to blame your surroundings because it makes you feel better instead of taking stock of things and making the right decision for you.


----------



## hooper (20 May 2004)

*.*



> By all accounts max anybody who likes living here should feel ashamed for doing so by your bitter, twisted and unhappy logic.



Where are these accounts Mr. Pigster? You have an egregious tendency to make falacious arguments based on your own suspect interpretations of what people say. 

PS: What on earth does this mean?


> Or is it just that you don't enjoy your life and it's easy to blame your surroundings because it makes you feel better instead of taking stock of things and making the right decision for you.


----------



## piggy (20 May 2004)

*Re: .*

*--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By all accounts max anybody who likes living here should feel ashamed for doing so by your bitter, twisted and unhappy logic.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Where are these accounts Mr. Pigster? You have an egregious tendency to make falacious arguments based on your own suspect interpretations of what people say.* 

Max said:
*
lethargy


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's why the Irish remain in Ireland. Those that were led or fled to North America or Oz now live in co-operative societies.*

And...
*And if by some perverse reason some Irish punters have a go at creating wealth and by extention, employment, the Irish psyche drives us to wish them ill. Sick and twisted is how I would describe that behaviour. And immature.*

And
*And the reason is that there are no rational reasons to live here. The best and brightest have moved on*

And here
*The over-inflated sense of self that is 'Irishness' dosen't wash in the world. The rest of the EU laughs at us. Even smallest the newest entrants, who by the way lost more lives and paid dearly than Ireland for their freedom, guffaw over the self-importance on display here.*


*PS: What on earth does this mean?

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Or is it just that you don't enjoy your life and it's easy to blame your surroundings because it makes you feel better instead of taking stock of things and making the right decision for you.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------*


It means exactly what it says. Why does he live in Ireland if he thinks it's so crap?


----------



## Bridget (20 May 2004)

*acculturating*

I spent 12 years in London, 2 in Germany.  I have to say that returning to Ireland in 1991 at age c 35 was difficult.  It took at least 2 years to settle in.

1.  The social life just wasn't as fluid as it had been in my early 20s and it took a long time to make good friends.  Very easy to meet people who'd say 'we must keep in touch' and you'd never hear from them again.

2.  Took me a long time to get used to Irish culture.  I didn't realise that when I told an Irish person I was in a hurry because I had an appointment in 2 minutes, they were insulted cos I didn't stop to chat.

3 More cultural codes:  when a person says on the phone in Ireland, "I must let you go now", it means that THEY want to get off the phone.  Sayiing "Oh no, I've plenty of time" just upsets them.

4   The Irish habit of beating around the bush and not being straightforward used to INFURIATE me.  Thank heavens I worked with a few Americans so we could moan together about this!  Now I accept it.

The point is , I had to learn the opposites when I went ot  live abroad after Uni.  Then relearn on my return.  My first year here was miserable.  I'd got out of the pub habit entirely and it bored me to tears.  It takes time.  I'm sure there's stuff on this on the internet - try culture shock or acculturation.

I'm hard pressed to say why I stay here.  Family is one reason.  And I suppose I've got used to it.  Where else would I prefer? Everywhere has its drawbacks.  If I could only bring the ideal aspects of a number of place together in one geographical location!

I also contribute in my subversive way - in personal and political senses - to change.  Otherwise how can change happen?

I figure we never had the facilities that England had to cut back on, so when we cut back, the effects were much more  "cutting".   Alas we were never a colonial power!


----------



## Natchessmen (20 May 2004)

*Re: Eireann go brea*

Elk, Elk Elk ...I seems like just last evening we were enjoying a friendly banter about radio and the like.  Now look what have you started my friend, five pages of raw emotion...ah isn’t that what being Irish is all about

I too have lived abroad and returned and left...etc.
Apparently you live in or Around Galway not a bad start.  I must admit I haven't read the entire thread (life's just too short) it would seem the debate is very general.  Specifically (see below) I love Ireland for certain reasons. Of course the place infuriates me at the same time but that’s just it. I couldn't give a flying fig about any other place I have ever lived.  Like a mad gunman goes crazy in NYC, I couldn't care less even if it were a mile away. However I take events in Ireland to heart. I worry about the general effect of inflation.  I pray that the kinda peace in the North will last.  In effect I feel I belong.  If you feel you belong you may well drive yourself insane but it’s a good reason to consider staying.

What I like about Ireland:
Sailing
Mountains
Walking on the beach no matter the weather
The weather ain't too bad
Pubs (now the smoke free variety)
Debate with strangers without fear of being lynched
That rather quirky Irish humour
My pathetic attempt at the Irish language
Diddildee iddildee music
The summer festivals
The wren on St Stephen’s day
Seeing Ireland growing up over the last ten years
GAA (mentioned earlier in jest but it's great)
Failrly low tax
Affordable health insurance Itry USA for size)


----------



## fatherdougalmaguire (20 May 2004)

*Re: acculturating*

This is an interesting one alright. I hope the thread doesn't descend. Keep one thing in mind: reply to the post not the poster. Let's not let it get personal.

Elk, there's no doubt that your original post touched a nerve amongst many many people. Some people mightn't have the luxury of being able to up sticks and move country. Some people might have the luxury but not the will or the inclination. That's fair enough. They don't have to fight their corner.

I think you asked a question which could have been taken up in a couple of ways (1) why should I (Elk) stay, (2) justify why you don't live in another country. 

The first question can only be answered by yourself and nobody else. Everyone has their reasons for staying here. Maybe they've got kids, etc. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

I think what might have hit the nerve is the second interpretation where you might be asking people about why they live in Ireland and not another country. 

People have their reasons and, in a sense, maybe those reasons shouldn't be challenged inasmuch as there may be personal reasons (i.e. family - as Oz (and no doubt somebody else before him/her) put it - the ties that bind).

Beyond personal circumstances and personal advantages (e.g. piggy being able to see the Dublin mountains from his/her house) there are the more global issues which affect us all. They're the reasons which you raise in your initial post.

You're lucky enough to have lived in a country outside Ireland. Most of us have probably holidayed abroad for 2 or 3 weeks of the year and, each time, glad to come back to proper bread, milk and Guinness. There's that and the "better the devil you know" people.

Ask yourself about what life's about. If, for you, it's about bringing up a family then ask yourself about the type of woman you'd like to marry and where you'd like your kids and their kids to grow up. 

Remember one thing though, don't regret anything. Don't be dying, lying there in some hospital somewhere in Ireland wondering what would have happened if you had moved back to Sweden. Don't let us on AAM or anyone else be the deciding factor. I really think it's something that you should decide for yourself (and your potential family's future).

Just as there's no such thing as a stupid question, there's no such thing as a stupid decision (for an individual). If it means you come out the other side with cuts and bruises you'll be all the more wiser. If you come out the other side happier then bully for you.

One of Crowded Houses last songs was titled 'Everything is good for you' the next line is 'If it doesn't kill you'.

I'm a firm believer in that.

Good luck in whatever you decide. Is there a www.askaboutmoney.se?


----------



## Sarsfield (20 May 2004)

*Re: acculturating*

On the economic front, full employment, low overall taxation and reasonably high incomes are often considered positives.

I don't have children and I'm in good health so I can't comment on schools or hospitals.

On the social front, I don't drink much but I must say I think the social/nightlife in Dublin is amazing.  Anyone who thinks its all about binge drinking isn't looking very hard!

What's harder to measure is what it "feels" like to live here.  For me, living in Dublin, I think there's a huge buzz to the city.  I know its chaotic, but there's such an energy in the place that its like a drug!  The crowds, the construction, the fact that there's something new happening all the time.  The internationalisation of the city has been a tremendous development both economically aesthetically and culturally.

Our development of infrastructure certainly hasn't kept pace with our needs.  That's one of the downsides.  However, we'll learn and eventually catch up.  Remember, only a decade or so ago, we were so poor, we didn't need infrastructure as there was no economic activity that required it!

So a lot of our current problems are the problems of success (infrastructure creaking at the seams, services unable to cope with demand) rather than the problems of failure (unemployment and emigration).

I think the worst thing in the country is a lack of civic pride and responsibility.  We could learn a lot from our continental cousins there.

Overall, and this is a purely personal thing, the energy, the growth and the new-found self confidence in Ireland (especially Dublin) make this a very exciting place for me to live.  Other places may be better developed, but it is the journey towards that level of development that does it for me.  And (to borrow my employers marketing phrase) "we're getting there".


----------



## maxhopper (20 May 2004)

How does one lure a *pig*? With an *orange*, of course! I am Irish, the Protestant variety. 

Sadly, I detect more than a whiff of bias among the 'tru and tru' group. Seems that one's national affliation is of great import and determines the tone and timbre of the post. Worldly? I suppose, given that racism exists in every corner of the globe. 

By my count, the 'abroad-Irish' have yet to acknowledge a positive trait and the 'stay-at-homes' to propose one.

Just my 2p.


----------



## piggy (20 May 2004)

*"Sadly, I detect more than a whiff of bias among the 'tru and tru' group."*

You've penned this one yourself . No one else believes it except you. Perhaps you hope if you keep saying it enough people will start to believe it. You seem incapable of understanding shades of grey. Everything is black and white it would seem. You either staunchly defend Ireland or you hate it. Very sad.

*"Seems that one's national affliation is of great import and determines the tone and timbre of the post"*

One's national affiliation is important to some people max. I don't see how it affects this post though.

*"Worldly? I suppose, given that racism exists in every corner of the globe."*

Maybe you could explain this to me?

*"By my count, the 'abroad-Irish' have yet to acknowledge a positive trait and the 'stay-at-homes' to propose one"*

One wonders if you have trouble reading what people have been saying max. Or is it just that you choose to ignore what we've been saying, because it better suits your twisted views?


----------



## sol (20 May 2004)

*..*

funny after all his talk about xenophobes etc MH felt the need to admit to being Irish but then to attach the Protestant bit. Why should that make any difference?

Anyway, its easy to slag off but as he's found out its more difficult to be constructive.


----------



## wavejumper (20 May 2004)

*johnny foreigner top tens*

10 things i like about Ireland

unsolicited chit chat with total strangers

8 cups of tea a day

your 'un with the tits

the great irish weather

admit you eat "sausages and marmalade" and no one beats you up...yet

job hopping

i'll see you later...you don't show up and you're still friends.

the lack of dress sense

the hearty irish breakfast

meeting my wife

10 things i hate about Ireland

you all "need" a car now

pubs with loud music and tvs in 'em

the lack of dress sense

30 years of eu funding down the flipping drain

drunkness seen as an ecxuse rather than an aggravatng factor in courts 

some jobs are for Irish only ditto for promotions

inner city dwelling - track suit + fake gold ring wearing - heroin pushing -  pram pushing plebs

bertie ahern and mary harney

Dubliners slagging off country folks

The Irish who hate the British.


----------



## maxhopper (20 May 2004)

Simply responding to a direct question from *piggy*.





> This is beginning to get pathethic because anybody who defends living here is getting slagged off for doing so.
> 
> Are you Irish max?


<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->*piggy* has yet again proven my postulation that the colour of one's affliation, school attended, accent, pigmentation, etc. *do* matter to many. Sorry folks, but that adds up to racist.

So taking a quick look at the results thus far we have for the '*tru* *and* *trus*'<!--EZCODE LIST START--><ul><li>Family</li><li>Home turf</li><li>People we like</li><li>Da buzz</li><li>People like us</li><li>Clubbing</li><li>People that think like us</li><li>Hillocks</li><li>People we know</li></ul><!--EZCODE LIST END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->...and the '*offshores*'<!--EZCODE LIST START--><ul><li>Equality</li><li>Co-operation</li><li>Respect</li><li>Integrity</li><li>Acceptance</li><li>Social conscience</li><li>Infrastructure</li><li>Planning</li></ul><!--EZCODE LIST END-->
<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->Join us after the break when things begin to hot up and the faeces strikes the oscillating blades!


----------



## sol (20 May 2004)

*...*

i could be wrong but i dont think anyone asked you for your religion. YOU felt the need to differentiate yourself from others. Seems a touch hypocritical to slag off people for their parochialism then.

By the way you must tell us where this Utopoan land is that has all these great attributes. Because on my travels I have never seen this magical land. So please let us in on your secret. I dont think you can so you'll probably reply with a "cutting" comment rather than with anything constructive.


----------



## maxhopper (20 May 2004)

If I must. 
The issue is not where but what. Glaringly obvious, right? Apparently not. Nirvana can be in our backgardens. A few critical observations and some posters blew a gasket. Almost popped their clogs, they did. Ireland does not need defending, it requires fixing. I believe to a person, the returnees expressed that sentiment. But others could not abide the truth in their words and set out condeming them and calling for their explusion. Strange behaviour, that.

As for *others*, boasting about *living* abroad without elaborating on the experiences raises suspicions. The returnees and non-Irish have nailed their colours to the mast. Extended periods (years) of living under different social and cultural conditions tends to alleviate myopia.


----------



## piggy (20 May 2004)

*Simply responding to a direct question from piggy.
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is beginning to get pathethic because anybody who defends living here is getting slagged off for doing so.

Are you Irish max?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


piggy has yet again proven my postulation that the colour of one's affliation, school attended, accent, pigmentation, etc. do matter to many. Sorry folks, but that adds up to racist.*

Normally when someone attacks me like that max and calls me racist (when I'm not) I ask them to take it back. In your case I won't bother. You live in a special world all to yourself.


----------



## piggy (20 May 2004)

*"As for others, boasting about living abroad without elaborating on the experiences raises suspicions"*

Who was boasting?

I was merely stating something. Why should I elaborate on my experiences? For what purpose?????


----------



## piggy (20 May 2004)

*"A few critical observations and some posters blew a gasket. Almost popped their clogs, they did. Ireland does not need defending, it requires fixing"*

No max, you missed the point entirely. As usual.

People started to 'blow a gasket' as you put it becuase of the absurdity of the way the question was being posed. But I think that that went over your head.

I don't care if people want to point out Ireland's flaws. I do it all the time. It's when they start pointing them out and saying that we shouldn't live here because of them...that's what I have a problem with.


----------



## piggy (20 May 2004)

*"But others could not abide the truth in their words and set out condeming them and calling for their explusion"*

No one asked for anyone's expulsion max. Again throw around some fictitious comments.
What was suggested, and rightly so, was why do you want to live here if you think this country is so crap.


----------



## Elk (20 May 2004)

*The DEBATE continues ..*

After all the debate I am glad that posters are starting to state the things they like about Ireland.

My point was and always has been this.  Every country has its positive and negative points.  There are some major things with Ireland that need fixing.  If I didnt care about Ireland I would never have bothered posting the frustrated post that I did.

Living in different culture does broaden the mind.  That is a fact.  You see how other people live (bad and good).

I hated lots of things about Sweden too!  I really hated the lack of spontnaity, the dark depressing winters, the isolated living culture in Stockholm and the conservative traditions to name but a few.

I also realise that having friends and family is a big big factor (and rightly so) of why we live and where we choose to live. 

My overall feeling I was expressing was frustration.  I think Ireland has great potential and I get frustrated at the corruption I see and state of public services.

Anyway I don't wish to go over old ground.  I hope that my post in some small way  has made some us think a little about Ireland today and perhaps about what we can do to fix it.  No I havent decided to leave just yet..  

Elk


----------



## Max Hopper (20 May 2004)

Again Pigster, you flatter yourself. I referred to 'many'. Have you not read the T&Cs of the board?

The visceral nature of some opinions previously expressed lead me to dislike circular logic. For the ITers present, it is known as GIGO.


----------



## piggy (20 May 2004)

Max, the way this sort of thing normally works is when people make points about the things you've said you respond to them.

There's about two pages of me and others responding to some of your comments...yet you seem to ignore them.

Are you a politician by any chance?

Of course you're entitled to ignore them and we can just listen to you drone on in your flowery language all day if you like.


----------



## maxhopper (20 May 2004)

On expulsion -
*piggy* wrote:





> <!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->


----------



## piggy (20 May 2004)

Do you understand the meaning of the word expulsion max?


----------



## maxhopper (20 May 2004)

Noo, it's not prejudiced here - 

From today's Indo :

*Three jailed over ATM scam that tapped into 90 accounts*

THREE Romanian men who were involved in a sophisticated ATM scam which allowed them to access 90 bank accounts were jailed for two years yesterday.

All pleaded guilty to 14 counts of theft dating from November 25-27 last year, contrary to section four of the Criminal Justice Theft, Fraud and Offences Act 2001. A total of €5,290 was siphoned out of the bank accounts of six customers, over the three-day period, some on several occasions. 

On passing sentence, Judge Michael O'Shea said the men had been involved in an extremely serious offence. But he accepted they were 'small players' in the scam. He sentenced each of the men to two years on each individual charge, all of which will run concurrently. Leave to appeal was refused.-----------------------​*Troubled employee caused €1.5m blaze*

AN arsonist, who caused more than €1.5m damage when he started a fire at work because he was "pissed off", received a suspended sentence yesterday.

Thomas Murphy (24), of Quigley Park, Rathdowney, Co Laois, pleaded guilty to five counts of arson and one count of criminal damage.

Murphy told the court he was "very sorry for what I've done, the damage I've caused".

Judge Anthony Kennedy accepted the acts were not of a "sick mind". He sentenced Murphy to three years each for the five arson charges, and to one year each on the criminal damage and the larceny charges.

He suspended the sentences, placing Murphy in the care of the probation service and ordering him to continue in therapy.-----------------------​Comments? Rebuttals? Refutations?


----------



## maxhopper (20 May 2004)

For the consideration of students of the English language ------------------------​*Reflexive pronouns* in _introspective thought :_


> I keep asking *myself* the same question, over and over and over. *Why don't you go live somewhere else where your life isn't so crap?*



Do what they say, say what they mean
One thing leads to another
You told me something wrong
I know I listen too long
But then one thing leads to another
_-The Fixx_​


----------



## piggy (20 May 2004)

The "you" in that sentence referred to you max, not me.

From now on I'm going to pay more attention to  post.


----------



## purple (20 May 2004)

*Re.Noo, it's not prejudiced here*

Maxhooper,
since none of us (as far as I know) were in the court for either of these trials and know nothing of the backgrounds of the people convicted it would be imposable to have a balanced or informed discussion about the two cases. what I would say is that on balance Judges in this country and lass racist and more liberal than the majority of the population, and no, I am not saying that we are a country of unbalanced racists.
I have enjoyed this thread and for the second time in as many days I find myself in broad agreement with piggy. 
That I do find disturbing.


----------



## piggy (20 May 2004)

*Re: Re.Noo, it's not prejudiced here*

*"I have enjoyed this thread and for the second time in as many days I find myself in broad agreement with piggy. 
That I do find disturbing."*

Happens to the best of 'em purple  

:lol


----------



## hooper (20 May 2004)

*.*

Excellent entertainment. I do enjoy seeing Mr Pigster getting his knickers in a bunch. Three posts from the Pink One in a row at one juncture.


----------



## piggy (20 May 2004)

*Re: .*

I'm glad you're so entertained hooper.


----------



## househunter1 (20 May 2004)

*ireland*

'On the social front, I don't drink much but I must say I think the social/nightlife in Dublin is amazing. Anyone who thinks its all about binge drinking isn't looking very hard!'

Here, here, anyone know a country with a better social life than Ireland? I go out on the weekends, have agreat time and don't necessarilly have to get mad drunk. Life in this country was'nt meant to be taken seriously folks.

Also ireland does have a pretty decent climate compared to some other countries.
The countryside is some of the most beautiful in the world, and it only takes 1 hour to get to it from downtown dublin.
Also I'm eternally grateful for having some really good friends. 

The problem with utopia is its boring. Try living in an american  suburb for a while, youll be on the prozac fairly soon.

As regards money, we've a lot more of it than  some of our less fortunate neighbours
It ain't perfect, but I know of a lot worse places to live in


----------



## maxhopper (20 May 2004)

piggy -<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->To correctly refer to another when using reflexive pronouns one writes :<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->Why *doesn't* (verbal change) *he* go live somewhere else where *his* life isn't so crap?<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->purple -<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->The discrepancy in sentencing for the damages is outrageous (€5,290 v €1,500,000), regardless of the 'circumstances'. What I fault find with is the incarceration of the non-nationals while an angry young man walks the streets simply because he says he was "...very sorry for what I've done, the damage I've caused". Neither he nor his cadre have learned that anti-social behavoiur is unacceptable. But *he* is 'tru and tru' and therefore you are not protesting what is blatantly a bias in sentencing.<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->These events clearly demonstrate why





> Ireland - Its sinking ..


----------



## maxhopper (20 May 2004)

househunter1 -<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->How about contributing to the 'pro' aspect of the thread by naming some of the venues where you regularly experience the amazing social/nightlife in Dublin? Lots of light in here but no *heat*.


----------



## maxhopper (20 May 2004)

All your questions answered.

*piggy* wrote of the comment, "Worldly? I suppose, given that racism exists in every corner of the globe." -

Maybe you could explain this to me?

Sure. If racism is found everywhere in the world then the postulate is that is is 'worldly'.

*piggy* wrote of the comment, "By my count, the 'abroad-Irish' have yet to acknowledge a positive trait and the 'stay-at-homes' to propose one" -

One wonders if you have trouble reading what people have been saying max. Or is it just that you choose to ignore what we've been saying, because it better suits your twisted views?

The collective term, we, is erroneously placed. Your contribution of 'home and family' as positive aspects of Ireland (or anywhere else for that matter) not withstanding, where is the concordance of others?

Any more questions?


----------



## maxhopper (20 May 2004)

Also from today's Indo (proving that Irish *s**** doesn't stink -





> An Taisce president Frank Corcoran said he was walking along Tramore beach and found to his horror sewage being pumped into the sea on an incoming tide with bathers in it.
> 
> "On a sunny summer day, on an incoming tide this county council chooses to pump sewage metres away from family groups bathing, putting their health at risk. This is outrageous," said Mr Corcoran.
> 
> Marine expert, Karin Dubsky of the Coastwatch Europe network said: "It is a health hazard. People could be swimming in that area. They should put a warning out." Gabriel Hynes, senior engineer with Waterford Co council, said yesterday: "If there was any danger we would be taking action."


<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->Right, Mr. Hynes. Pumping effluence into the sea is fine as long as you post a sign.<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->Ah to be sure, it'll be grand.<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->Any incensed, environmentally-aware Irish out there ringing Mr. Hynes to demand immediate action? And where were you the past 50 years?<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->Ireland - Its _stinking_ ..​


----------



## maxhopper (20 May 2004)

But don't take my word about the levels of prejudice in Ireland (again, from today's Indo) ------------------------​*No clean slate for State on prejudice charges*

GOVERNMENT departments, health boards, local authorities and State-run companies were named as culprits in a disturbing number of complaints of discrimination to the Equality Authority last year.

A total of 171 allegations of discrimination concerning such bodies were made based on race, gender, sexual orientation, disability and membership of the Traveller Community, according to the Equality Authority's 2003 annual report released yesterday.-----------------------​But then I just might be a wee bit prejudice towards the failings of Ireland.


----------



## nogser (20 May 2004)

Max

Can you tell us how many of the 171 allegations were upheld by the authority?

There is a significant difference to me between planning and executing a theft and the damage to property in the second case you mentioned earlier.  I don't necessarily agree with the sentence given but see no problem with the first one.

Personnally New Zealand is the only place that I've been to that I think I might prefer to live in on a long term basis.  Plently of places I would like to experience though.

Nogser


----------



## househunter1 (21 May 2004)

Hi maxhopper
Lots of pubs, clubs on Georges / wexford st, Whelan's probably the best, fab spot. Also Rathmines many good pubs. One qualm they close too early. Its pretty unfair to get kicked out onto the street at 3am when you're just getting going, but thats another can of worms.
Galway and Cork have some great nightspots too.


----------



## maxhopper (21 May 2004)

Honestly? Willful destruction of property is less contemptable than ATM theft? As long as it isn't your property, I'll wager.<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->NIMBYism is another indication that Ireland hasn't any social conscience.<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->But seriously, three points I would like to make here about the report -<!--EZCODE LIST START--><ol><li>The [broken link removed] website has not been updated for nearly a week, so I cannot read the report. Why?</li><li>That the Irish are generally forebearing types and largely apathetic so even 50 complains should come as a surprise.</li><li>That discrimination, hatred, prejudice, and racism even exists on this idyllic isle.</li></ol><!--EZCODE LIST END-->


----------



## Max Hopper (21 May 2004)

Okay. Whelans... that's the extent your explanation of 'amazing social/nightlife'? Admit it, overpriced drink, obnoxious bouncers, droolers and gawpers galore. Yeah, Dublin's social/nightlife is 'amazing'.


----------



## Max Hopper (21 May 2004)

*Doomed, but I ain't no rat*

<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->Which way outta here?-----------------------​


----------



## maxhopper (21 May 2004)

*Troll?*

Yes and I had you all fooled...all you racist catholics and tru and truers on AAM.

I'll be around in many different forms. 

Keep an eye out for me.

BRAIN DRAIN


----------



## hooper (21 May 2004)

*.*

You couldn't make it up...


----------



## Cliona (21 May 2004)

*Elk, great topic and some good posts!*

WHat, 7 pages in two days? Is this an AAM record? Anyhow, you`ve obviously touched a nerve(even if it`s only Piggy`s and `MaxHooper`s!)

No harm for us to look at the negative sides of ourselves. And maybe even improve on them. Hope you manage to work your way around them/through them and begin to settle back. Being away for a bit brings it`s own problems.

You do seem to be a proactive sort-liked your Tuesday with Morrie quote. Maybe you`re destiny lies in the local CO Council in your efforts to improve this place? 

Have to say I love it here. But them I`m a narrowminded white Catholic untravelled overpaid civil servant!

Anyway, congrats! Good `un!
Cliona


----------



## Penfold (21 May 2004)

*...*

maxhopper, would you happen to be a pilot by any chance?


----------



## LouiseDub2 (21 May 2004)

*Interesting*

I loved your list!! It's interesting to see what an Italian thinks of this country and I can see you have been here many years.
Bang on!! I wish you many happy years of drinking tea in this country.


----------



## wavejumper (21 May 2004)

*louisedub*

cheers!  i think Elk wanted to see what people liked rather than what they hated and how much...and what do you like about Ireland?


----------



## Max Hopper (21 May 2004)

I enjoy the masses of immature yobos and the universal acceptance of cute hoorism. Won't find it anywhere else but in Ireland.


----------



## wavejumper (21 May 2004)

*max*

whats "cute hoorism"?

honestly, me foreign. me.


----------



## wavejumper (21 May 2004)

*cute hoore*

haaaa aaa!, thats what a Jackeen is!  Thanks Max


----------



## Elk (21 May 2004)

*Cute Hoore ...*

oopps my team leader called me that the other day .. is THAT what it means ..  

Anyway glad the thread is popular.  I think its healthy to take a look at ourselves and try and change things that have gone wrong.

And yes Ive been trying to keep the Tuesdays with Morrie quote in my mind ...  i.e. Life if what you make of it and you dont have to buy into the culture .. you can make your own culture with your friends and family.  If you like that is ...

Elk


----------



## wavejumper (21 May 2004)

*elk*

"Life if what you make of it and you dont have to buy into the culture"

...for sure, I stick to my cooking, you won't see me in a chipper...well not sober anyway...


----------



## Sean (21 May 2004)

*Corruption*

According to this:-

www.finfacts.com/corruption.htm

Ireland is ranked 23rd in the corruption league table.


----------



## mollser (21 May 2004)

*World-wide quality of life survey*

[broken link removed]

World-wide quality of life survey - scroll down the page a bit.

We're ranked 35th in the world, not as good as Sydney, but then again I don't need anyone to tell me that.

Better than London, Madrid and New York and joint with LA, and Adelaide (my vote for the most boring city in the world!)

Draw from this what you will.

Dublins not the best place to live, but it sure as hell isn't the worst either.

Obviously Mercer's found some good things to say about the place, even if some people can't find any!!


----------



## Elk (21 May 2004)

*Survey ...*

Yeagh but you forgot to mention that we are 45th in the world rankens for environment. 

Anyway its good to see Ireland doing well enough in the other apects you mentioned.

Interesting page .. thanks!

Elk


----------



## Im lovin it (22 May 2004)

*tru oirish*

I have to say I don't know what the lot of you negative nellies are waffling on about!  I love living here.  There is loads to do besides drinking in the pub!  Any amount of sports clubs, drama clubs, kids clubs, womens clubs, mens clubs, singing, walking, hiking, fishing, driving, fresh air, countryside, beaches (I love long beach walks), city life etc.  You can safely practice or not practice any religion you want.  IRISH PEOPLE LOVE THEIR CHILDREN VERY MUCH AND LOOK AFTER THEM BETTER THAN ANYWHERE ELSE IN THE WORLD.  Yes some parents are mean to their kids but that is not unique to the Irish. I have a 3 year old and have never, on my life, experienced any negativity going into a restaurant and looking for a high chair or whatever. Always found a changing facility, any number of them around, what thick idiot said there was none, you must be blind. The waitor or waitress always have smilled and said hello to the child and given him colours or straw for his drink or whatever.  I remember Captain Americas as a kid and they were friendly to me and my brother, still the same now with my own son.  When I was growing up women in Ireland were only starting to enter the work force, my mother still remembers when a woman gave up work when she got married, therefore not many creches etc.  Then women started to go to work and shared amongst themselves the childminding (most only did part-time when they had kids).  Now women want (for some) and need (for others) to work full-time and the facilities are struggling to keep up, but its not the end of the world and they are on the way, and I've yet to meet the woman, or man for that matter, who can't make adequate childminding arrangements.  Kids for the most part have a free lifestyle, they can go out and play.  My cousins in Belguim could never do that.  Every year they would come over for the summer and when it came to leaving there would be alot of tears and sadness.  All three live here now and love it as much as they did as kids, even their dad is back home, it was his Greek wife who dragged them over to live there.  You can become anything you want here, a teacher, a doctor, lawyer, nurse, chef, builder, factory worker (and whats wrong with that), cleaner, tv presenter, business person, surgeon, baker, journalist, programmer, fireman, rock star or anything else you dream of, even set up your own message board/forum on Irish financial issues.  

The Health system and infrastructure needs serious attention, I think we can all agree on that, but lets do something about it instead of writing off everything else thats good about the country. Billions have been spent over the last ten years on improvements but there are alot more people living here with certain standards and it takes time to reach those standards.  Rome wasn't built in a day.  You can't come from having nothing and go to having everything without blood sweat and tears.  Its not fair to compare Ireland to the likes of Sweden when Sweden has been building its wonderfull self for longer than we have.

Yes we have problems, same as any other country, but we are working on it and with the right attitude we will solve them.  If you can't wait well thats just tough, go else where, we are enjoying the craic here and don't care if a few grumpy nay sayers, who in my opinion have become spoilt by there adventures abroad, come home and don't get everything they want handed to them with a wave of a magic wand.


----------



## maxhopper (23 May 2004)

Could not agree more. *Ireland, adequate at best*.


----------



## looptheloop (24 May 2004)

*andonandonandoandonandariston*

maxhopper, repeatiative at best.


----------



## Guantanamo Jay (24 May 2004)

*Come work for us*

Do you work for Bord Failte by any chance ?


----------



## Ricki from Eastenders (24 May 2004)

*It was abolished*

Didn't they abolish Bord Failte and replace it with Bord Slan as part of the referendum campaign ?


----------



## Max Hopper (24 May 2004)

Did you mean [broken link removed]? Or did you intentionally reinforce the depressing result of the Irish educational system?


----------



## Elk (31 May 2004)

*AIB*

And so it continues ....


----------



## ConMan (31 May 2004)

*re*

All that hard work for nothing!!!


:lol


----------



## Elk (8 Jun 2004)

*bump*

bump


----------

