# Are passports a rip off?



## MrKeane (11 Jul 2007)

€75 for a new passport, I know they are valid for 10 years and its only €7.50 a year but thats not the point.

What do people think?


----------



## Deirdra (11 Jul 2007)

The pricing is debatable, it's the service offered in the Dublin office that kills me. I renewed passports in overseas consolates without any bother and very quickly. When I left my passport into the Dublin office it still hadn't arrived after the 6 weeks processing time, so I had to go in and hound some inefficient and lazy civil servants. Makes me want to immigrate just to get a renewed passport.


----------



## ang1170 (11 Jul 2007)

MrKeane said:


> €75 for a new passport, I know they are valid for 10 years and its only €7.50 a year but thats not the point.
> 
> What do people think?


 
I think it's yet another stealth tax.

€75 must be way in excess of the cost of providing it.


----------



## Sn@kebite (11 Jul 2007)

Just be thankful it isn't €175 as they could probably charge anything they like due to the importance if the PP!


----------



## ClubMan (11 Jul 2007)

For comparison purposes. Adult passports only. Not sure of validity period - maybe 10 years is the norm?

USA US$97 ~ €70 
[broken link removed] GBP£66 ~ €97 
 AUD$200 ~ €125
 CAD$87 ~ €60
Germany €59


----------



## Sn@kebite (11 Jul 2007)

ClubMan said:


> For comparison purposes. Adult passports only. Not sure of validity period - maybe 10 years is the norm?
> 
> USA US$97 ~ €70
> [broken link removed] GBP£66 ~ €97
> ...



Still, does it justify the price being so high? I don't know...


----------



## ClubMan (11 Jul 2007)

Sn@kebite said:


> Still, does it justify the price being so high? I don't know...


You mean the fee charged by *any *country? The _Irish _fee is not outrageous when compared to the ones above.


----------



## Sn@kebite (11 Jul 2007)

ClubMan said:


> You mean the fee charged by *any *country? The _Irish _fee is not outrageous when compared to the ones above.


The fees of all the countries do seem very high. But I meant the price of only the _Irish_ passport. Does your previous post justify the Irish governments need for such a big fee? (i.e. just because other countries charge outragous prices, do we _need_ to follow suit? Or is it some kind of govnt. policy thing which they (the irish govnt.) are obliged to follow. And likewise for the other countries.


----------



## ClubMan (11 Jul 2007)

€75 for a 10 year passport seems comparable to or below the costs in some other countries. A more extensive lists of passport charges worldwide would be interesting to see. I noticed that the _UK _passport site makes it clear that they don't (and cannot by law) make a profit on passport fees so I wonder if the same applies here and in other countries? Given the labour, quality of materials and anti-forgery technology required to produce a passport €75 for a 10 year document doesn't seem outrageous to me personally.


----------



## Sn@kebite (11 Jul 2007)

ClubMan said:


> €75 for a 10 year document doesn't seem outrageous to me personally.


Not forgetting the scores of euros spent on "incorrect" digital photos. Because of minor thing like, blurr, smile, hair covering forhead etc.. Some of them just get rediculous.


----------



## ClubMan (11 Jul 2007)

Sn@kebite said:


> Not forgetting the scores of euros spent on "incorrect" digital photos. Because of minor thing like, blurr, smile, hair covering forhead etc.. Some of them just get rediculous.


Last time I got a passport done the photo rules seemed clear enough to me and were easy to adhere to to avoid having to get them done more than once or having the application rejected (and this was for an 8 month old!).


----------



## purpeller (11 Jul 2007)

Certainly in comparison to a driving licence (also valid for 10 years), it doesn't seem good value but it is a more important document.  I don't have a problem with €75 for 10 years.  Also: the price has not gone up much in the last few years.  When I got my last passport (1998), it was around the £50 mark.


----------



## Sn@kebite (11 Jul 2007)

ClubMan said:


> Last time I got a passport done the photo rules seemed clear enough to me and were easy to adhere to to avoid having to get them done more than once or having the application rejected (and this was for an 8 month old!).


It could be a _power trip_ on behalf of the administrators. But my mum was rejected twice, once for smiling (even though she wasn't and was on _Prozac_ at that time) [maybe that would make you smile? I don't know]
And the second time it was still for petty hair coming down her forehead, just annoying. that's all!


Would it not be very difficult to reject a baby picture as it will look pretty much the same no matter how many times the pictures are taken? And what are the chances of an 8 month old hijacking a plane? So maybe they're just liberal with baby pictures?


----------



## ClubMan (11 Jul 2007)

Sn@kebite said:


> Would it not be very difficult to reject a baby picture as it will look pretty much the same no matter how many times the pictures are taken?


Have you ever seen an 8 month old and how their expressions change from one minute to the next? Thankfully we had a helpful and patient photographer (one of the places in an amusement arcade or cyber café on _O'Connell Street_).


> And what are the chances of an 8 month old hijacking a plane? So maybe they're just liberal with baby pictures?


 Doubt it. What about kidnapping/child abduction?


----------



## Sn@kebite (11 Jul 2007)

ClubMan said:


> Have you ever seen an 8 month old and how their expressions change from one minute to the next? Thankfully we had a helpful and patient photographer (one of the places in an amusement arcade or cyber café on _O'Connell Street_).


well a 2 year old  yes it is true lol


			
				ClubMan said:
			
		

> What about kidnapping/child abduction?


would it be easy to notice a baby on the street, and compare it to a face photo you've seen on the news? Would you not be better off showing home photos of the child rather that a PP one? (Like little Madeline McCann) I'd never recognise her if i only saw a PP photo.

Hope im not taking this off-topic.


----------



## Deirdra (11 Jul 2007)

I liked the story about a woman in the UK who received a refusal for her baby's passport photo on the grounds that 'the baby is too shiny'


----------



## Pique318 (11 Jul 2007)

I just got a new one delivered today...posted on the 29th June...so 8 business days including delivery....pretty good turnaround given the time of year. It was Passport Express with An Post and cost €80.

Photo is now scanned in and a digitally readable representation of my mush embossed on it too.

Photo is very dark though so just flashing your photo-page at an immigration officer won't work anymore and they'll 'have' to take a closer look. Wonder if that's deliberate as my father-in-law had the same result with his recent passport ?


----------



## ClubMan (11 Jul 2007)

Sn@kebite said:


> would it be easy to notice a baby on the street, and compare it to a face photo you've seen on the news? Would you not be better off showing home photos of the child rather that a PP one? (Like little Madeline McCann) I'd never recognise her if i only saw a PP photo.


My point was simply that passports are used for more than just the type of security situation that you mentioned above and so I cannot see the passport office being casual about what photos are acceptable no matter how young the applicant.


----------



## Sn@kebite (11 Jul 2007)

ClubMan said:


> My point was simply that passports are used for more than just the type of security situation that you mentioned above and so I cannot see the passprot office being casual about what photos are acceptable no matter how young the applicant.


Point taken.


----------



## MrKeane (11 Jul 2007)

The NCT is €49 and in fairness includes a full health check for your car and about 20 minutes of a mechanics time. A passport presumably is just a scanning procedure and takes mabye 10 minutes, or is there more to it than meets the eye?

Perhaps for your first passprt a €75 fee but for a straightforward renewal it could be say €50 as they should already have your identification details, passport number etc. available?


----------



## blueshoes (12 Jul 2007)

I think €75 is ok compared with other places as clubman mentioned. I had awful trouble with the passport office the last time i renewed mine but got it sorted in the end. They could be a bit more friendly


----------



## DublinTexas (12 Jul 2007)

I think that any passport free is a rip off.

Providing me with a passport so that I can proof my citizenship and/or identity should be a duty of the goverment (who's services I pay for with taxes).

They make picture ID mandatory theses days for anything from bank accounts to travel on an intra-ireland plane.

A passport is not luxury these days, it is essentional.

Other European countries hand out ID cards for a resonable prices (Germany charges nothing for the 1st issue and after 10 year it expires and than they charge 8€) that can be used for proofing my ID and allow me travel throughout the Schengen Area and other EU and Eastern European countries. 

Some countries like Finland or Austria charge a higher fee for ID's but they are then also having a CHIP with an electronic signature on it that I can use for online banking, electronic signature on e-mails or doing most goverment business online).

Passports should be free, it's the goverment that forces me to use them, so they should provide them.


----------



## ClubMan (12 Jul 2007)

blueshoes said:


> I had awful trouble with the passport office the last time i renewed mine but got it sorted in the end.


What trouble? Did you make mistakes with the application form/process/documentation?


----------



## Guest127 (12 Jul 2007)

vague recollection of Dermot Ahern (when opening the new passport office in Balbriggan)saying the passport office made a profit of €29m last year on a turnover of less than €100 and hence no cost to the taxpayer for the new office. IMO €75 is ok though and the €5/6 An Post charge is good value for the service offered.


----------



## ClubMan (12 Jul 2007)

cuchulainn said:


> the €5/6 An Post charge is good value for the service offered.


€7 actually.


----------



## Pique318 (12 Jul 2007)

ClubMan said:


> €7 actually.


 

Just checked my Laser receipt from the PO when sending my Passport Express application and it's actually €7.50 they charge.


----------



## Sn@kebite (12 Jul 2007)

Pique318 said:


> Just checked my Laser receipt from the PO when sending my Passport Express application and it's actually €7.50 they charge.



See! this is the point i was making about the €75 PP. It will keep going up, like the _bin tax_ people said "ah €6 is not enough". Than 4 monthslater it's €8. So the passport will keep going up, and i'm sure it won't only be because of inflation.
But then again it is only every 10 years, unless they change that too...


----------



## ClubMan (12 Jul 2007)

Pique318 said:


> Just checked my Laser receipt from the PO when sending my Passport Express application and it's actually €7.50 they charge.


Sorry - the info on  is obviously incorrect. See the An Post website instead which confirms that the charge is actually €7.50.


Sn@kebite said:


> See! this is the point i was making about the €75 PP.


Do you know for a fact that the _Passport Express _charge actually increased by €0.50 and that the incorrect information on  is actually not simply a mistake? In any case _Passport Express _is an optional service for those who want a passport in a rush - it's not a charge for the passport itself. Apply early enough and you can avoid the charge.


----------



## Guest127 (12 Jul 2007)

The an post service is two way express with full tracking and a _guarantee_ that it will take no longer than 10 working days. just because its an semi state organisation does not mean that good service should not be charged for at a reasonable rate. Again IMO €7/€7.50 is reasonable for a two way express service.
there is a facility for urgent/emergency issue of passport direct from the passport office but the charge is €50 extra per passport.


----------



## z107 (12 Jul 2007)

> Sorry - the info on  is obviously incorrect.



QED
It must be a rip off then, because they quote one price and charge another


----------



## Persius (12 Jul 2007)

Btw, do the new Irish passports contain the contactless chip containing biometric data? If so, this will add significantly to the cost of producing a passport. Those things, and the associated processing infrastructure requried, aint cheap.


----------



## ClubMan (12 Jul 2007)

I don't think that they are issuing biometric passports yet - there was some spiel about them a while ago but I'm not sure what happened. I do believe that some of the recent changes (e.g. the hard plastic photo page, possibly containing _RFID _or other storage/communications technology, the watermarked version of the individua's photo etc.) are already in place in preparation for full biometric passports. I could be wrong though.


----------



## MrKeane (13 Jul 2007)

cuchulainn said:


> vague recollection of Dermot Ahern (when opening the new passport office in Balbriggan)saying the passport office made a profit of €29m last year on a turnover of less than €100 and hence no cost to the taxpayer for the new office. IMO €75 is ok though and the €5/6 An Post charge is good value for the service offered.


 
What kind of BS is that from Dermot Ahern? Sure the profit from the €29m would surely have been returned to the minister for finance if it had not been spent on the new office. Its a stealth tax really, it makes profit for the government which is returned to the exchequer.


----------



## ClubMan (13 Jul 2007)

MrKeane said:


> What kind of BS is that from Dermot Ahern?


It's not from _Dermot Ahern _- it's a self confessed vague recollection by a message board poster who cannot support his comments with evidence.


----------



## Guest127 (13 Jul 2007)

CM is correct again. here is the information for the opening of the Balbriggan office and there is mention of €26m being spent to implement the new passport service etc. no mention of the €29m profit so I got that information somewhere else. www.dfa.ie/home/index.aspx?id=25621


----------



## Purple (13 Jul 2007)

Why is it that every time a state body runs at a loss they are accused of being wasteful and yet if they run at a profit they are accused of operating a stealth tax. It's such a stupid expression. 
€75 for a document that lasts 10 years (or €7.5 a year) is bugger all. The systems that are required to generate controlled documents are complex and costly. They are not selling stamps.
So the answer is no, it’s not a rip-off. It’s not even a high price.


----------



## Slash (13 Jul 2007)

Well said, Purple.

I am  grateful i live in a democracy (well, sort of) where I can get a passport. There are many people in the world who are not entitled to a passport at all.

Give it a rest. If you think €75 is too much, write to Dermot Ahern.


----------



## Sn@kebite (13 Jul 2007)

Purple said:


> Why is it that every time a state body runs at a loss they are accused of being wasteful and yet if they run at a profit they are accused of operating a stealth tax. It's such a stupid expression.
> €75 for a document that lasts 10 years (or €7.5 a year) is bugger all.
> So the answer is no, it’s not a rip-off. It’s not even a high price.





Slash said:


> Give it a rest. If you think €75 is too much, write to Dermot Ahern.


I know you're both right. But there's no problem in being sceptical of politics, at least that way you can't be deceived.


----------



## ClubMan (13 Jul 2007)

Slash said:


> I am  grateful i live in a democracy (well, sort of)


Why the circumspection? Is some aspect of your sentience in doubt?


----------



## boaber (13 Jul 2007)

ClubMan said:


> I don't think that they are issuing biometric passports yet - there was some spiel about them a while ago but I'm not sure what happened. I do believe that some of the recent changes (e.g. the hard plastic photo page, possibly containing _RFID _or other storage/communications technology, the watermarked version of the individua's photo etc.) are already in place in preparation for full biometric passports. I could be wrong though.



The UK passports now come with a chip, so I'd say your right that Irish ones will follow suit soon


----------



## gonk (13 Jul 2007)

boaber said:


> The UK passports now come with a chip, so I'd say your right that Irish ones will follow suit soon


 
They have had them since last autumn.


----------



## ClubMan (13 Jul 2007)

gonk said:


> They have had them since last autumn.


Sorry - I overlooked this info on the _Passport.ie_ website when I posted about this earlier. (The _PR _and _FAQ _links in the article don't work so use the ones in the navigation menu at the left hand side of the page instead).


----------

