# Irish school (gaelscoil)-beneficial or not?



## lucylou

Hi,
im in a bit of a dilemma, I have my 4 year old enrolled to start in a school in September, a very good school by all accounts(st Thomas in Lucan). I was talking to my neighbour whose little boy is due to start school this year also. She has got him a place in the Irish school in Lucan. Neither of the parents speak Irish.
I started thinking about this as i Studied Irish for four years at university level, about ten years ago. I have kind of fallen out of speaking it as the years went on, but I would still be fluent if i got back into it. 
I rang the Irish school out of curiosity and they said they would be delighted to take him, considering I am a Gaelgeoir. Now Im in a bit of confusion, as I dont know what is the best option for him. Anyone got any ideas/experiences/opinions on Irish schools?
Go raibh maith agaibh!!


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## earwig30

*Re: Irish school-beneficial or not?*

I had the same dilema 14 years ago but without the background in Irish that you have . I made the decision to try the gaelscoil for a year to see how it would go and I never looked back. I have had two children through gaelscoil at primary level and I would never change one moment of it. They are now both fluent Irish speakers and have Irish parked as done and dusted, one is leaving cert this year , the other junior cert. I remember them tackling the modh connealeach (forgive the spelling) at 10 years in 4th class, I could not understand it for my leaving cert! They both go to English-language secondary school and are streets ahead of their ex-english-primary school classmates. The eldest, leaving cert. this year, bemoans the fact that he cannot express himself more freely in the Irish written exams he complains that the test is too restrictive. Honestly it is a great decision to send your kids there, I see my 4 nieces aged 8 to 12 struggling with Irish in their schools and they are all bright kids. The gaelscoil was way better. The only drawback I ever found was when travelling around the country my kids did not have the english names for anything geographically, historically, etc.. Thank goodness for those bi-lingual signs.


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## Red

*Re: Irish school-beneficial or not?*

Look at the class size & school resources. Both my younger brother & sister went to gaelscoil & gael colaiste as the pupil teacher ratio was much lower there. Both got fab leaving results in the end.& are fluent in Irish. 

The teachers can afford to give more 1 to 1 individual attention in smaller class sizes & this can only benefit the child.

The school also did a lot of extra curricular activities not available in main stream - music, dancing, swimming ,drama, french.etc

Do your research before you make your mind up.


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## clio1999

*Re: Irish school-beneficial or not?*

My daughter is in the gaelscoil in Leixlip Scoil ui Dhailaigh.  Its a great school and I dont regret one moment sending her there.  The classes are smaller and  she loves it.  Im not fluent in Irish but I can manage fine with her with the homework etc.  I have my other daughter enrolled allready and she is only 9 months.  Im not sure what to do now about secondary whether to send her to the Irish secondary school in Lucan or to an english speaking one. I wouldnt say there is any extra benefits to sending them to an Irish school, but for me the smaller classes were an incentive, also the disipline was a big issue also for sport, they do camogie, hurling, gaelic, etc and also the music side, violin, flute etc..
Most schools have their own websites which should be of help..


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## lucylou

*Re: Irish school-beneficial or not?*

i suppose my main concern would be how difficult it will be for himself, I mean they really dont speak any english at all from the moment they walk in the door??! I just would hate for him to struggle through it, especially seeing as i have never spoken any irish to him before? I prob should have done so before now.


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## Marie

*Irish school-beneficial or not?*

Children don't "struggle" with second (or third, fourth, fifth and sixth, for that matter!) languages.  The earlier children are exposed to different languages the easier the acquisition and (as the numerous other posters above have indicated) acquiring and learning through more than one language develops intelligence.

_Adults _struggle with new and diverse knowledge which children just take in their stride.


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## lucylou

yes i am aware that children benefit from languages early on, I also studied linguistics as part of my degree, and have been in the childcare sector for a number of years. i know children are like  little sponges when it comes to learning. Maybe what Im asking is not so much will he struggle, but will he be any better off than if he was in an English speaking school? I'm so confused, I just want to do whats best for him!!
Do other posters think its good for him to know his national language, or is it worth it? I know the smaller class sizes would be appealing, But maybe Im just thinking back to my old school days when we had a dragon teaching us Irish, she was very old fashioned and didnt make Irish learning fun!!


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## earwig30

I had similar concerns before my son started in Gaelscoil but the methods they use are really excellent. Remember all the other kids are in the same boat too, very few if any will come from an Irish speaking household. In the school my kids went to the teacher would say something in Irish and then repeat it in English and gradually reduce the amount of English being used, by Christmas she was speaking only Irish to the children. In emergency situations or where any child obviously did not understand or was upset over anything  the teachers reverted to English, it is not like the old days of all or nothing education. At my sons birthday party, the December after he started school, we were very amused to find him addressing his creche friends in English and his school friends in Irish - he even started to talk in Irish in his sleep!


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## earwig30

I reread your last post - Is it worth it - I certainly think so . Regarding the National Labnguage thing, it was not something I really thought about when I made the decisiion to send him there in the first place, but now that he is doing his leaving cert this June I see his classmates who went to english speaking schools really struggling with Irish whilst he hardly has to work at it atal. Irish is still a compulsary subject and will probably stay that way. It is marvellous that both my kids are struggle free in this subjest at school. Ypu can come accross nasty teachers in any school and you will not like every teacher your son has in his 8 years at school no matter what school you choose. However you mey encounter my son who is hoping to do primary school teaching next year and hopes to teach in a gaelscoil in the future! (He cannot imagine it any other way)


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## Gordanus

I sent my daughter to a Gaelscoil because my own Irish was so bad.  She was in the Naoinra for a year before starting in Low Infants so it gave her a bit of a start.  I also started using my very basic Irish with her:  Feach, feach ar an eh er ah gluaistean, tar ansin etc and it worked really well.  Other kids started with not a focal at all and the teachers managed really well.  They really enjoyed it.  Now she's in English speaking secondary and is best in her class at Irish, regularly of her own choice watches TG4, and has read Harry Potter as gaeilge.  I'm so pleased I went that route.  And while I did a parents class that the primary school organised, you won't have to do this!   It's also great for her to have a subject that she fiinds easy. We're expecting 'eeasy honours' here!
PS found out later that gluaistean was archaic ..... it's now 'carr'.  ho hum.


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## Ceist Beag

Just on this topic, does anyone know where you can find a list of Gaeilscoileanna in Ireland?

... update - answering my own question! There is a website at http://www.gaelscoileanna.ie


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## PGD1

we should start up french or spanish schools.... that way they would get all the same benefits, plus they would learn a language that will be of some benefit to them.

I know I will offend people by saying this but apart from the heritage aspect Irish has no use whatsoever.

I find it sad that people are sending their kids to Irish schools in order to escape large class sizes etc... rather than because Irish is useful.


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## lucylou

There is a French school I know of however it is not in my locality. I don't know of any others . However i do in some sense agree a little bit with the Poster above, is the language going to stand to him in the future, or is he going to be like me as I said in my OP and I havent spoken any Irish since I left college. In terms of my son's learning capacity though I feel that learning a new language so young can only benefit him, even if he is not going to use it in adulthood. Whethter it is French, Spanish or Irish or whatever, surely a second language is going to be beneficial to his learning potential?


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## Vanilla

I wonder if a child who is already bilingual would benefit from a gaelscoil or would it just be too much or confusing?

Also I assume that a child would have to go to an irish primary school if they want to go to an irish secondary school?


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## ashambles

There are other benefits, Gaeilscoileanna get higher capitation grants and have a better student-teacher ratio. As well as helping the child later when doing Irish in the Leaving and making other languages easier to pick up, it may also allow him or her to do other exams through Irish and receive 10% bonus marks. 

There's some elitism involved with fluency in Irish that I find distasteful. But if everyone was aware of the advantages of gaelscoileanna then I believe the majority of parents would be insisting their children were educated through Irish.


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## nacho_libre

PGD1 said:


> we should start up french or spanish schools.... that way they would get all the same benefits, plus they would learn a language that will be of some benefit to them.
> 
> I know I will offend people by saying this but apart from the heritage aspect Irish has no use whatsoever.
> 
> I find it sad that people are sending their kids to Irish schools in order to escape large class sizes etc... rather than because Irish is useful.




There are plenty of French or Spanish schools....in France & Spain. 
This is Ireland we're talking about. 

The Irish language may not seem useful now, but it's becoming extremely 
popular in recent times perhaps spurred on by the new generation of people 
who have been through the gaelscoil. These people don't see the language as 
a burden of a subject or a useless language. It's just a different way of 
communicating.

There are absolutely no downsides to being fluent in your national language. None.

A gaelscoil education can only be beneficial to any child, whether they choose to 
use the language later on in life or not. At least they'll have the choice.


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## MissRibena

Disclaimer: I don't have kids.

I don't believe there is ever something that is all good. If you go to a school that is all-Irish speaking, then there MUST be some kind of a trade-off. It just depends on whether it is something you're willing to trade.

For one thing, in my area, the Irish schools are filled with children from a very narrow background range (i.e. white, middle-class, Irish Nationals). While I accept that it is the right of parents to educate their children as they see fit, I don't believe that this is good for the kids or society and definitely not something that should be encouraged by government by extra funding. 

It seems kind of crazy that someone with a learning difficulty can get one-to-one tuition as part of the regular school system but yet many people are eschewing this system to be part of the Gaelscoil thing because of smaller schools/classes.

I would agree with the "usefulness" argument too. I would be far quicker to send a child of mine to a Spanish or French or German speaking school if I wanted them to be bi-lingual. 

The kind of "Irishness" that a Gaelscoil promotes (at least in my area); over-emphasis of heritage etc. is getting too close to nationalism and patriotism for my tastes.

Rebecca


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## aonfocaleile

Just want to throw in my two cents worth on this. As my user name might suggest, I speak Irish fluently. I didn't attend an Irish speaking school, but rather was encouraged to learn the language from a young age although neither of my parents have particularly good Irish or any 'grá' for the language. Thankfully, I found that for myself. Speaking Irish fluently brings me daily benefits. Some friends (for various reasons) needed to brush up a bit lately and I was able to help them with it. In work I am owed no end of favours as I regularly assist colleagues with translations. (These favours can be redeemed as after work beverages or by having my name bumped up the list for a new printer for example). I converse with some of my other friends through Irish from time to time to keep up my fluency. I also found that when I was in school, I had a great advantage over other pupils as I understood almost everything in Irish and could concentrate on the academic side rather than the language itself. These are only small things but in my experience, speaking another language has brought me many benefits and has had no 'downside'. If OP decided against the Gaelscoil, in the future he could pack the child off to Irish college for a few weeks, which would also improve fluency. Its another option at least.


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## tiroileain

I don't agree that there has to be a trade off.. Or see anything wrong with being patriotic? Surely valuing your own nation and culture allows you to appreciate other cultures better. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriotism 
"Patriotism denotes positive and supportive attitudes to a 'fatherland' (Latin patria < Greek patrida, πατρίδα), by individuals and groups. The 'fatherland' (or 'motherland') can be a region or a city, but patriotism usually applies to a nation and/or a nation-state. Patriotism covers such attitudes as: *pride in its achievements and culture*, the *desire to preserve *its character and *the basis of the culture*, and identification with other members of the nation."

Sure, Irish is not necessary. It may/may not be useful, but that will be a matter for the child when he/she grows up. If they end up speaking it regurlarly with their friends, take a sense of pride in it, or end up working in a job that requires Irish, then that will make it useful for them. If they don't ever use it again (unlikely) then at least being bilingual will give them the confidence of being able to master a further language. By sending them to a Gaelscoil they will become fluent Irish speakers unlike most of those that come out of the English medium schools. 

I currently live in Switzerland (Zurich) where learning and speaking different languages is second nature. Here people speak and take pride in their local dialect, and learn German when they start school as a foreign language. The Swiss I work with generally speak at least 3 languages fluently. One girl grew up in a bi-lingual Romansch / Swiss German community, learnt German at school, is fluent in French and English, speaks a bit of Italian, and is learning Spanish. Only started learning English a couple of years ago, but speaks with almost perfect grammar, despite not having lived in an English speaking country.

We're fortunate in many ways that English is the main language of Ireland, but by virtue of it being the de-facto international language but there is one disadvantage: We don't have the same urgency to learn other languages, so generally we don't. Being an island doesn't help either. 

Having Irish gave me the confidence to learn fluent Spanish in a couple of years, and I'm now learning German.


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## PGD1

All the arguments that Irish is our language and should survive are fine and dandy.... but there are alot of people out there (lets say 75%) who are not brilliantly academic, and having to learn a language which is no longer used is a considerable waste of time and distracts them from what I would call "more useful" subjects... that might actually get them a job and allow them to live a more productive life.

I mean, how many jobs can TG4 create anyway!!

I have nothing against Irish... just the amount of focus it gets.

I don't think Irish speakers should get 10% bonus points.

I think the money spent on Irish and Irish schools could be spent better elsewhere.


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## nacho_libre

PGD1 said:


> All the arguments that Irish is our language and should survive are fine and dandy.... but there are alot of people out there (lets say 75%) who are not brilliantly academic, and having to learn a language which is no longer used is a considerable waste of time and distracts them from what I would call "more useful" subjects... that might actually get them a job and allow them to live a more productive life.
> 
> I mean, how many jobs can TG4 create anyway!!
> 
> I have nothing against Irish... just the amount of focus it gets.
> 
> I don't think Irish speakers should get 10% bonus points.
> 
> I think the money spent on Irish and Irish schools could be spent better elsewhere.



Since when did you have to be "brilliantly academic" to be brought up bilingual?

I'm sure you'll find that any child in a gaelscoil learns both English and Irish with 
relative ease. It's only seen as "a considerable waste of time" by those who never  
had the aptitude/interest in learning the language and who hold some type of 
resentment now towards it as a result.


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## MissRibena

nacho_libre said:


> It's only seen as "a considerable waste of time" by those who never had the aptitude/interest in learning the language and who hold some type of resentment now towards it as a result.


 
Ah now nacho_libre, it's statements like that and the definition of patriotism that unflinchingly uses words like "fatherland" to define it that give the likes of me the heeby jeebies about a certain contingent among the gaelscoil protagonists. 

If Gaelscoils truly are so brilliant and are such a benefit to EVERYONE in society, then all schools should be Irishspeaking and the benefit of this wonderousness should be freely available to all children and not just subsidised and promoted for a few.

Not everybody's idea of being "Irish" means the same thing (that's the trouble with patriotism btw). For me it's a far more mixed bag than the Fado, fado stuff. And for some of us with a far more loose/liberal/open definition of what Irish means, it may not be even an important part of how we define ourselves. My nationality may be a part of me but it would come way down the list of my definition of myself. I personally feel this is far healthier than an over-emphasis on national identity (which is required to justify Irish-speaking schools in the first instance). I believe that it is far better to emphasise peoples' similarities while acknowledging the differences (that's why kids with learning difficulties are IN the classroom) than to highlight and re-inforce their differences. A government that gives added incentives to these kinds of schools is contradicting itself.

Rebecca


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## Gordanus

Vanilla said:


> I wonder if a child who is already bilingual would benefit from a gaelscoil or would it just be too much or confusing?



Er... my family is already bilingual.  Irish was my child's 3rd language.  No problemo.   Brains like sponges, to quote somebody else.

There have been in Ireland for a considerable period of time, a French and a German school (since the 60s I think).   This enabled parents who were biliingual, or from France/German speaking countries, to have their child educated in that language.   I don't doubt that we will see more of these.  In large cities in Europe, there are International Schools to cater to the children of diplomats and UN staff.

MissR, I don't think you can extrapolate this kind of patriotism from what nacho says.   I went through all his/her posts and couldn't find it.  Also, if you look at the location of Gaelscoilleanna, you will find a lot of them in -dare I say it?- working class areas.   The ones in my (middle-class) area, have a significant enrolement from the local flats.


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## SarahMc

> and having to learn a language which is no longer used is a considerable waste of time and distracts them from what I would call "more useful" subjects... that might actually get them a job and allow them to live a more productive life.


 
Thats the thing, children in gaelscoilleana don't learn Irish, anymore than children in English speaking primary schools learn English, its just "there".  A method of communication.  

There is research to show how bilingualism from an early age helps cognitative development.  There is also high levels of parental involvement in both gaelscoileanna and educate together schools that you don't necessarily find in traditional denominational schools.

However the gaelscoilleanna are not for every child, and in fact can hamper development of children with dyslexia or dyspraxia.


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## rabbit

PGD1 said:


> we should start up french or spanish schools.... that way they would get all the same benefits, plus they would learn a language that will be of some benefit to them.
> 
> I know I will offend people by saying this but apart from the heritage aspect Irish has no use whatsoever.
> 
> I find it sad that people are sending their kids to Irish schools in order to escape large class sizes etc... rather than because Irish is useful.


 
hear hear.    It is sad that our kids leave secondary school being so poor in continental languages.   I once witnessed a group of elderly German tourists arriving at an Irish hotel and none of the staff being able to speak to them in their native language.


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## tiroileain

Originally Posted by *nacho_libre* http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?p=344075#post344075 
_It's only seen as "a considerable waste of time" by those who never had the aptitude/interest in learning the language and who hold some type of resentment now towards it as a result._



MissRibena said:


> Ah now nacho_libre, it's statements like that and the definition of patriotism that unflinchingly uses words like "fatherland" to define it that give the likes of me the heeby jeebies about a certain contingent among the gaelscoil protagonists.


 
Did you quote the right sentence? I'm not sure how B was deduced from A?



MissRibena said:


> If Gaelscoils truly are so brilliant and are such a benefit to EVERYONE in society, then all schools should be Irishspeaking and the benefit of this wonderousness should be freely available to all children and not just subsidised and promoted for a few.


 
No, there there should be a choice, and parents should decide what they think is best for their children. I'm not sure who said that Gaelscoileanna were a benefit to EVERYONE in society? It's not for everyone, and never will be.

Can I respond to cynisism with some more? Okay, imagine you have a young son. Let's take the fascist, white middle class, fado fado, romantic, green tinted spectacles, gaelic Ireland elements and "protagonists" out of a particular Gaelscoil in your area. Assume also that the local English school and Gaelscoil are now on a completely level playing field, the only difference being the language of instruction. So your son has could be fluent after a couple of years in an additional, completely useless language if he goes to the Gaelscoil. But completely free remember from fascist brainwashing. Would you consider it?



MissRibena said:


> Not everybody's idea of being "Irish" means the same thing (that's the trouble with patriotism btw). For me it's a far more mixed bag than the Fado, fado stuff. And for some of us with a far more loose/liberal/open definition of what Irish means, it may not be even an important part of how we define ourselves. My nationality may be a part of me but it would come way down the list of my definition of myself. I personally feel this is far healthier than an over-emphasis on national identity (which is required to justify Irish-speaking schools in the first instance).


 
Broadly agree except for the "Fado, fado stuff" - as Irish is a living language, and many would like to keep it that way, to me it's "inniu, inniu stuff" And I don't think any justification is required for an Irish speaking school in, what country are we talking about here again, oh yes, Ireland.



MissRibena said:


> I believe that it is far better to emphasise peoples' similarities while acknowledging the differences (that's why kids with learning difficulties are IN the classroom) than to highlight and re-inforce their differences. A government that gives added incentives to these kinds of schools is contradicting itself.


 
It's just a language, most of the people (especially those in non-native English speaking countries) are bilingual. Children in Gaelscoileanna also speak English, so it doesn't make them different as such to those that don't go to Gaelscoileanna. Should we propose that the schools in the Gaeltacht areas stop teaching through Irish, because that promotes difference? Or why do you argue against Irish-medium instruction, but at the same time argue for instruction through German, Spanish, French etc. in a previous most? I repeat, it's just a language, a means of communication.


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## lucylou

Gordanus said:


> MissR, I don't think you can extrapolate this kind of patriotism from what nacho says. I went through all his/her posts and couldn't find it. Also, if you look at the location of Gaelscoilleanna, you will find a lot of them in -dare I say it?- working class areas. The ones in my (middle-class) area, have a significant enrolement from the local flats.


 

Firstly, I disagree with your location theory, there is a large Gaelscoil in Monkstown, one of the most affluent areas of South County Dublin. Children from a very mixed background attend there. 

Sorry, I don't understand the connection between location of the Gaelscoileanna and the antiquated system of social class, in relation to patriotism?
What is your point here?


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## aonfocaleile

Gordanus said:


> Also, if you look at the location of Gaelscoilleanna, you will find a lot of them in -dare I say it?- working class areas. The ones in my (middle-class) area, have a significant enrolement from the local flats.


 
How is this relevant? There are Gaelscoileanna in almost every part of the country, educating children from various backgrounds. 

I don't see why social class and peoples feelings about nationalism and patriotism are being brought into this discussion. Irish is a language and those who speak that language are not all of the same opinions on these matters, in the same way speakers of English and other languages would have differing views.


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## MissRibena

I'm not arguing for the abolishment of these schools! I'm just against their promotion over the usual state schools. These schools should be treated as private schools.

In my rural area (and things may be different in cities, I wouldn't know), the local gaeilscoil got a major grant to build a lovely brand new state-of-the art school. Fab. Except that this funding hasn't been matched (or anything like matched) in the regular state primary school which is falling down around the ears of the kids, with a result that parents now have very little choice BUT to send their children to the Irish-speaking school. The situation is exacerbated by the number of parents ferrying their kids out from the local town to the Gaelscoil. In this case this is where the class issue arises. There are very few non-nationals, travellers, etc. in the Gaelscoil - who would ferry them out from town (where most of them live) and what choice do they have?

The fact is that the area can probably only support one primary school and IMO the regular state school should always get priority funding. Each to their own but I really don't like what I see happening in our area.

Rebecca


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## Betsy Og

I also heard that theory that some people send their kids to gaelscoils to keep them away from non-nationals. While  that would be distasteful it would hardly be the fault of the gaelscoil - I've never heard of there being any conditions laid down as to who can and cant attend.

I'd be pro-gaelscoils, havent been to one myself but have moderate ability as gaeilge. Would send my child to one except its not in the immediate locality and I think, on balance, it would be better for him to know all his neighbours.

I'd agree that the extra language being "there" wouldnt be a burden on kids and if parents werent so relentlessly negative about the language then the kids mightnt find it so bad. At least nowadays theres cartoons etc. as gaeilge which werent there in my day. 

It seems to me to be a pity that a country wouldnt take a bit of pride in its language and be able to speak a minimum level (maybe the way it has been taught has a role here)  - culture lost through laziness.


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## Vanilla

> Er... my family is already bilingual.


 
Thanks Gordanus. Was wondering since my children are too ( or at least one is, the other is still a baby) and am considering sending them to a local Gaelscoil.


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## Gordanus

MissRibena said:


> For one thing, in my area, the Irish schools are filled with children from a very narrow background range (i.e. white, middle-class, Irish Nationals).
> The kind of "Irishness" that a Gaelscoil promotes (at least in my area); over-emphasis of heritage etc. is getting too close to nationalism and patriotism for my tastes.
> Rebecca



LucyLou, Aonfocal eile..........I was responding to MissRibena's above remarks. I do not believe that Gaelscoileanna are the preserve of the middle class at all.


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## Gordanus

MissRibena said:


> In my rural area (and things may be different in cities, I wouldn't know), the local gaeilscoil got a major grant to build a lovely brand new state-of-the art school. Fab. Except that this funding hasn't been matched (or
> 
> The fact is that the area can probably only support one primary school and IMO the regular state school should always get priority funding.
> 
> Rebecca



The Gaelscoil, like every other non-fee paying primary school, IS a regular state school.


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## Bonafide

I think you have to examine the situation in your own locality and decide what is best for your own children. My wife and I were surprised to find out for example that there was a better student teacher ratio in the local presentation school. We also noticed that our local Gaelscoil is housed in prefabs on the side of a busy road with poor perimeters. We also thought that if any of our children had special needs in the future the mainstream system would be better equipped to deal with them and perhaps also better able to identify such difficulties as a result. 

We went to visit three different schools and spoke to the principals and some teachers in all cases. The fact that Irish was the chosen communication method in one of the schools was a factor but not the only factor. We chose the local presentation school for a number of factors. Although I think the usefulness of Irish is an emotive issue and is often staunchly defended, I did notice that no one has written a post in Irish in this thread…


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## Betsy Og

Bonafide said:


> I did notice that no one has written a post in Irish in this thread…


 
Mar bhi se soleir nach raibh gaeilge ag gach duine.


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## z107

Does anyone know at what age computer skills are taught from?


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## Bonafide

I have a daughter in junior infants in a mainstream school who gets 1 on 1 on a computer once a week.


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## annR

I can't help but feel totally baffled by some of the anitpathy expressed towards Gaelscoileanna and Irish speaking in general.  I was abroad for a while so maybe I've missed something.  This stuff about Gaelscoileanna being elitist and middle class etc. where did all this come from?  

Please don't tell me people are calling them elitist because the foreign children don't go there.  Can it be the old national shame in all things Gaelic is alive and well and manifesting itself in new ways?


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## terrysgirl33

I'm not in this situation yet as my little one isn't due to start school untill 2008, but I also live in Lucan and am considering a gaelscoil.  As far as I am concerned, the drawback is that there probably won't be as many pupils from other backgrounds there, but that's something we will have to deal with as parents.  Otherwise, I see it as a good way for a child to learn a second language, by using it.


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## PGD1

now there's a good point... i would rather the government invest in computers than irish schools.

if you really really want your child to learn irish then you can speak irish to them, or send to to after school classes.


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## Ceist Beag

PGD1 you've made your feelings known about your lack of appreciation for our national language but all I'll say is I completely disagree with you and hope that some day you might feel a little bit proud of your language and feel inclined to change your views. As I said before, anything that promotes the language is good in my book and the more children that attend a Gaelscoil the better so that maybe the next generation can start using the language more in their day to day activities - I only wish that I could have more Irish speakers around me to converse with.


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## Betsy Og

there seems to be an implication that investment in gael scoils is money that could go to more worthy schools. If there werent gael scoils then those kids would need to go to other schools and those schools get more funding to cater for the extra kids.

I dont know that theres any evidence that the gael scoils get more, per capita, than other schools and, if not, arent they every bit as entitled to the funding as any other school. 

A gael scoil is a school where subjects are taught through Irish but, as far as I know, from a governmental point of view that is the only difference.


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## annR

I also wish there was more day to day Irish and I would definitely speak it if there was.


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## Bonafide

There is, its called English (but you throw in a few words like Slainte and Craic so you can write in the Census that you use Irish everyday!)...


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## Gordanus

Actually, Bonafide (Latin scholar?), that's all anyone needs to do is throw in the few Irish phrases (Conas ata tu? Nach bhfuil an aimsir go hiontach/ufasach? Ar mhaith leat cupan tae?) to make the use of Irish more normal.   I've been watching No Bearla, and am convinced that what stops most people speaking in Irish is their shame about not having fluent Irish.  The more phrases we all use, the more normal it becomes, and that's how fluency grows.


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## Bonafide

Thats a very good point, we have no trouble using our few words of French, Spanish or German if we are abroad!

I am ashamed....


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## saoirse96

can anybody tell me where the best gaelscoil secondary schools are in dublin im desprate


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## z104

Our language was taken away from us by colonial agressors who kept us back as a nation for hundreds of years.

I think it shows a confidence that people are taking back the language. I'd love to see a time when everybody speaks Irish as their first language while also retaining English as a second language.

If i'm blessed with children in the future I will be sending then to gael scoileanna.

I think alot of people dislike Irish because of the incorrect way it was thought to them at School.


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## csirl

I think Gaelscoils are more open and inclusive nowdays, but that wasnt always the case. 

My brother attended a gaelscoil primary school 20 years ago - parents thought it would be good for his education. Turned out to be a big mistake. Whereas my brother had no difficulties with the language - he is still fluent to this day and got an A in honours in the Leaving Cert - the school was a nightmare. Parents sent him to an english speaking secondary school.

The gaelscoil he went to (which is still around) was an established one. At that time, the majority of the kids were from Irish speaking families i.e. speak Irish all the time at home - parents were from the gaeltacht. The minority of kids from non-Irish speaking familes were treated as second class citizens - teachers looked down on them and regarded them as less than dirt and over time, the gaeltacht kids picked up on it and you got what can only be described as an appartide situation whereby the non-Irish speaking family minority got a very hard time on all levels. There was a very anti-Dublin attitude. Though the kids from the Irish speaking families were born and bred in Dublin, they were brought up with the view that anything from the west of Ireland is good & anything from Dublin is bad. If my brother said cheered for Dublin in a GAA match, he would get a hard time from the other kids, thought they were also born in Dublin - bit like the complaints in England about English born spectators at cricket matches in some places cheering from Pakistan against England.

Brother also said the standard of teaching was poor - gets masked by the fact that the Irish educational stream is generally separate from the English and it is difficult to compare the actual standard in exams for papers answered in each language - generally exam papers in Irish will get marked easier (in addition to the extra 10%). Took him c.1 year to catch up with english speaking students when he switched to english speaking school. 

I dont know what the schools are like now, but hopefully they have changed.

One thing to look out for is that the Irish requirement for entry into some universities will be dropped soon - it is against EU laws because applicants from all EU countries must be treated equally - cant have a requirement that Irish people need LC Irish to go to college, when it isnt a requirement for e.g German applicants to the same college. Also, my wife is a secondary school teacher & says that there are rumours going around that, due to the influx of foreign people to Ireland and anticipated future public demand (as well as the aforementioned EU reasons), Irish will be dropped as compulsory LC language sooner rather than later. 10% bonus is also likely to go to if challenged in court - try justifying giving an Irish speaking university applicant 10% extra marks than an english speaking one when both apply to do a course thought entirely in english. Kids starting gaelscoil today are unlikely to be able to avail of the bonus marks etc by the time they are LC age.


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## Orga

Tá sé suimiúil nach raibh focail i nGaeilge óna daoine agus iad ag plé leis an téama seo. Is tír dátheangach an tír seo, Gaeilge an phríomh teanga oifigiúil ach Béarla príomhteanga cumarsáideach na tíre. Na rudaí is tabhachtaí don pháiste ná, ionchur a tuismitheoirí agus an méad tacaíochta a thabharfadh siad don pháiste agus cé chomh héifeachtach is atá an scoil agus na múinteoirí.


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## ajapale

The OP wonders "*Gaelscoil-beneficial or not?*"

To answer the question I would pose the question "*of benefit to whom?*"

1) a particular child.
2) the school going population.
3) parents of children attending Gaelscoileanna.
4) the Irish Nation.


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## jmacguitar

Learning Irish is a distinct advantage especially for anyone living in Ireland - on a lot of levels both practical and social and cultural and utilitarian and etc.   This realization is becoming more widely held and will surely continue in the future.  Learning more than one language is most likely more natural and common place for most people in the world.  The scene in Irish has a complicated history, true, but there is more agreement on the value of _not _being mono-glot especially in English, all over the world today.


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## Yorrick

The argument about Irish and its ability to prepare you for a job can be made about most subjects. For example most people who study Maths will only use the basic addition, substraction, multiplication,division and percentages for the rest of their lives. How many people who study French, German etc to LCert will ever use it ?
Education is not all about jobs.


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## shesells

Having studied in Wales for a time I saw how the Welsh people loved their language. Why? Because it's not compulsory in school, and people do it by choice, because they want to. Peig Sayers did little for my love of our language!


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## j26

MissRibena said:


> For one thing, in my area, the Irish schools are filled with children from a very narrow background range (i.e. white, middle-class, Irish Nationals).


Out local Naoinra is quite different - several of the children are Polish or African, and several of the parents of these children are learning Irish (a course provided free by the gaelscoil principal in his own time) to support their childrens learning, and another group are from the local council estates, as well as the white middle class cadre you speak of.  There's a good variety there, and in fact it reepresents a more balanced group of people than the other national schools in our area.


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## Brianne

I have to admit that my own experience in my area of the whole gaelscoil thing has not been that good. It was certainly seen as elitist. I would have good Irish and was very amused to see people with absolutely no interest in it send their children there so that they wouldn't have to mix with certain 'undesirable' types!!!
Not a word of Irish seemed to be spoken in the yard by parents and the school got fantastic funding at a time when the local schools were not, and were in need of pupils. When we made a general enquiry about a child of ours transferring to the school, the principal told us that the board of management would have to meet because such admissions had to be considered carefully due to the foreign influence she would bring into their Irish school. 
To be honest, I restrained myself from calling him the narrow minded Irish, nationalistic bigot that he is . My daughter is excellent at Irish, goes to the Gaeltacht regularly but I'm glad I didn't send her to that Gaelscoil.
In my opinion, Irish is one of the few National Sacred Cows left and the whole situation of the millions that have gone and are going into the teaching of it is something that must be looked at. Recent carry on by the Gaelscoileanna with Mary Hannifan and her demand(rightly in my opinion) that English be taught in Gaelscoileanna again wouldn't impress me.
But like everything, I'm sure there are good and bad schools.


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## thesimpsons

when choosing any school for children the basic rule should be that all children are different.  Yes alot of children are like sponges and soak up languages or maths but there are alot of children who struggle too.  Just being in a gaelscoil does not necessarily mean that the child will love the langauge or soak it up.  When moving forward into secondary school I've found over the years that very often many of them aren't able to articulate themselves in the essay type answers required if attending an english secondary school or even in business reports.  Why - everything you are fluent in comes from practice whether its from using a language regularly, using maths in daily situations, etc.  Where children from gaelscoils often fall down is that they haven't had practice in speaking or writing comprehensively in English.   Many people will say but he/she reads loads of books.  Great, nuture that but it doesn't necessarily translate into good fluent written english.

Yes they can have a love of the language and be rightly proud of their achievement in having completed years in a gaelscoil but a love of a language or subject can come in many ways.  Eldest child went to english primary school and transferred to gaelcolaiste for secondary.  She loves the language, her primary school fed that love and nurtured it.  She can gets all high honours in her exams.  Why - cos she loves it as a language and being able to express herself.   Maybe in hindsight we should have sent her to a gaelscoil for primary but it certainly didn't hold her back in gael secondary.

Something else to point out is that many of the posters here have commented on the fact that their gaelscoils have great extra curricular activities, and lower class sizes.  Not always.  Any good school will have these activities.   It does depend on the principal, teachers and the parental involvement though.  We had great stuff going on in one local school until the principal retired and the new one wanted "none of that sort of thing".    This can happen in any school, gael or english.

Just remember that children are different and children change and what might suit one family member might not suit the rest of the children. Or what might suit one child at jnr level might be a struggle as they move up the system.


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## mamachick

Hello, I am in a bit of a dilema. I have three children 7,5 and 3.My 7 year old is in mainstream primary school but i am unhappy with it. I am thinking of moving him and starting 5 year old from scratch in september to the local gaelscoil. Just wondering if anyone has moved a child of this age to a gaelscoil. Im worried about his ability to grasp learning the subjects through Irish and to a lesser extent , making new friends...Any help with this would be greatly appreciated.


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## Snork Maiden

Hi Mamachick,

My niece (8yrs) transferred to a gaelscoil from an english speaking school in sept 08 to 2nd class and is thriving.   At a parent teacher meeting in Dec 08 (4mths in) her teacher told her parents that her irish had improved dramatically.  Initially she was included in the special help category with children who may need extra attention with certain subjects but she no long needs the extra help and has even surpassed some children who have been in the school since junior Infants!
Children at that age are like sponges.

I also know a woman whose primary education was at an english speaking school and changed to a gaelscoil at secondary level and she is now a teacher at a gaelscoil.........its never too late!

If you have the opportunity you should take it.


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## Padraigb

I wouldn't worry at all about a child aged 7 moving into a Gaeilscoil provided that the child does not arrive there with a problem. In other words, mamachick, you should give some thought to what is unsatisfactory about his present schooling. Only if you are sure that there is something identifiable about the school he is in now that is not right for him should you consider a move to a Gaeilscoil to be a good bet.


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## vectra

was going to send my son to a gaelscoil for secondary school.  although he attends an english speaking primary school.  do you think that he will be well behind kids coming from a gaelscoil primary school and will he catch up.  its either going to be the best decision or the worst decision of my life.  would appreaite any advice.


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## Padraigb

Chances are that he will behind children coming in from a gaeilscoil primary school. How far behind depends on how he fared with Irish in his own school.

It's not necessarily an insurmountable problem. One important factor is how many other children from non-gaeilscoil primary schools enrol. If there are a good few, then the chances are the the school will be geared to meet their needs.

I think the best advice I can give you is to contact the school to set up a meeting. They might want to meet your son in order to make an informal assessment of the quality of his Irish.


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## jo4

looking for some advice. my son is entering 5th class in a gaelscoil and will share a teacher with 6th class, problem is there will be 32 children in class so Board of Managment decided to hold a "lottery" and keep 8 children back with 4th class but following 5th class curriculum, my son even managed to pull out his own name so is now "master of his own education" and will be with 4th class. I dont want my son in this class as I believe he will be bored and regress, what can I do as BOM wont change decision and I dont want to move to another school. is this method of a lottery legal? any help


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## hope4711

I would be a fan of gailscoileanna but there is none close to where I live.  That said, I am glad now - my eldest daughter (8) has been diagnosed with dyslexia and the educational psychologist has recommended an exemption from Irish.  She is very good at Maths, and the psychologist has said her proficiencies will lie in maths, sciences, technical drawing etc.

Since my daughter has been diagnosed I have met other parents of dyslexic kids who have had to remove them from a gaelscoil.

I guess it's like any school - it will be great for some kids and yet not suit others at all.


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## Feirsteach

hope4711 said:


> That said, I am glad now - my eldest daughter (8) has been diagnosed with dyslexia and the educational psychologist has recommended an exemption from Irish.  She is very good at Maths, and the psychologist has said her proficiencies will lie in maths, sciences, technical drawing etc.
> 
> Since my daughter has been diagnosed I have met other parents of dyslexic kids who have had to remove them from a gaelscoil.



Can I just say that I find it incredible that as a parent you can be glad that you child has been diagnosed with a learning difficulty. But the fact that an exemption in Irish has been recommended is an indictment of the lack of understanding amongst psychologists in Ireland on the long-term effects that such a lack of understanding of the language will have on the child interacting with other people, the lack of shared experiences good and bad. 

I have met many many people north and south of the border that wish their parents had sent them to a gaelscoil or brought them up speaking in Irish. Now that they're older, they see the importance of having a knowledge of the country's native language and it's much more difficult for them to learn now.

Children with dyslexia have difficulty in making sense of written words, there is no reason why your child couldn't attain a good grasp at the very least of oral Irish. This would let him/her visit the gaeltacht without impedement, to attend Irish social events (e.g. www.clubsonas.com, www.antoireachtas.ie) and not feel that their learning difficulty has kept them from accessing that growing community of Irish-speakers, or stop them from employment prospects being created daily for people who speak Irish.


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## g1g

I find it very strange aswell. I have taught dyslexic children in gaelscoil's and would never recommend them being removed from gaelscoils.


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## BoscoTalking

Feirsteach said:


> Can I just say that I find it incredible that as a parent you can be glad that you child has been diagnosed with a learning difficulty.


i think its more to do with the happiness to get a comprehensive diagnosis. i bet he would much prefer that the child had not a learning difficulty.


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## Padraigb

Feirsteach said:


> Can I just say that I find it incredible that as a parent you can be glad that you child has been diagnosed with a learning difficulty...



I think you should read more carefully.


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## samanthajane

Things might be different in the part of the country that i'm from, but since when did gaelscoils ( primary from 1st class and secondary ) allow non irish speaking children to join the school. 

The gaelscoil where my children go will not allow children past first class to joint the school unless they can prove the child has a good understanding of the basic language in the first place. 

The level of irish in an english speaking school is totally different to gaelscoil. I think that would be fair to your son, the teachers or the other pupils, that the teacher is going to have to repeat and spent extra time with your son because he doesn't understand. It's not just about speaking the language you have to read, write and think in the language. 

What is your level of the language, will you be able to help with his homework? Even if your irish was good at school it's changed somewhat in the years. 

I posted a question on here a while ago because daddy was delayed in work and i couldn't understand one section of it. I got quite a few different answers from people who would class themselves as pretty good at irish. It's not because they were wrong the language has just changed. 

Is it you or your son that wants to go to the gaelscoil? If he willing to get help over the summer and really put the work in then of course he would catch up eventually but it's going to be a lot of hard work for him.


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## z101

Padraigb said:


> I think you should read more carefully.


 
I think you all should as nobody seems to have the addressed the posters question. I would call the Citizens advice or department of education.


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## dereko1969

..


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## hope4711

I certainly did not intend to say that I was glad my child was diagnosed with a learning disability.

What I meant to say was if there had been a gaelscoil near me I would have automatically preferred it as I would love my children to be fluent in our national language - my own Irish while tolerable is certainly not fluent and I regret that this is the case.  If I had done this I could see difficulties I would have faced following the diagnosis.

With regard to my daughter her specific difficulties relate to the sounds and pronunciations of words - she spells phonetically - rough is ruff, would is wud etc.  She will need - as best she can - to learn repeatedly the rules of english spelling and pronunciation - which come easier to the rest of us.  To add the layer of Irish pronunciation and spelling is an added burden.

I would agree that she should be able to deal with the spoken language better and it is my intention to do this with Irish and French.  Indeed she is learning French at the moment and she finds it much easier than Irish but that is because it is taught orally with no written French being taught.

My point was that one size does not fit all.  There are many advantages to gaelscoileanna but, like any school, you would have to weigh up the needs, ability and personality of your own child to decide whether it would be beneficial for a particular child.


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## BoscoTalking

lucylou said:


> Hi,
> Anyone got any ideas/experiences/opinions on Irish schools?
> Go raibh maith agaibh!!


I would say that posters have indeed answered the OP's question. 
Nobody only herself can decide what is best for her own son - not even CA.


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