# School negligence or just pure bad luck?



## May07 (21 May 2007)

My nephew fell in the school yard 2 weeks ago, his parents were not notified of it and therefore didn't realise the seriousness of it until they brought him to doctor about 5 hours after school finishing because he was limping and crying with pain.

Doctor sent him hospital for x-ray and it turned out he had two fractures in his foot. When his parents went into the school the following week it turned out that his incident had not been notified to to school principal. He said he would follow up with the teachers concerns and was quite cool with them advising that their son like all other children in the school have 24hr Insurance protection and gave them the Insurance details.

However he then rang them back saying that he has spoken to the teachers concerned and both teachers who were on yard duty were happy enough that the fall was no different to other falls within the yard and were shocked by the injury sustained and therefore didn't see the need to notify the principal of the incident. When their son returned to school his father asked for a copy of the accident report form and Principal said that it was not recorded as he had not been notified but he would get one done up, he also provided a copy of the Schools Accident reporting procedures. When his father asked why the procedure was not followed ie parents notified, the Principal said he could not notify him of it as he was not made aware by the teachers on yard duty and also that their son had not complained adequately enough about how much pain he had been in so the teacher on the yard and in his class did not see it fit to follow it up. My nephew has plaster on his ankle and will for the next few weeks or so, the doctors bills are covered by the Insurance but nothing else, nothing for taking time off to bring their child to a hospital every week 50miles away and having to take time off work for this. Ok I know if he had fallen at home they would have to do this anyway but I cannot understand how the school makes it obligitory for parents to pay this Insurance for their children but it only covers doctors bills, but if it had been a member of staff they get a weekly payment (this is my understanding from reading up on it, I may be wrong or perhaps it is to cover their salary)


My question is, were the school negligent in their handling of my nephew, because his parents had not been notified of the incident they unfortunately did not make an informed decision about the follow up care for their child. The school did admit that because the school was closing for a half day that day that they did not see it necessary to contact either of the parents but if it had been a full day without doubt the teachers in question said they would have advised the Principal who said he would ALWAYS notify the parents of all school incidents. When asked why no-one followed up with their son to even ask him how he was they said that his limping was not apparent and children tend to over-react if they find teachers are asking them how they are!!!

I understand people will think it's the Insurance culture we are in that has me posting like this but as I keep telling my sister if she or anyone else had fallen in work and were not offered any assistance until after their finish time, would they accept that and I don't think so. It is my understanding that teachers have a duty of care and this involves treating each child as if it were their own, I'm not talking over the top stuff I just mean advising someone else who is the responsible person (the parent) of the incident and letting them make the decision.

Any views?


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## ubiquitous (21 May 2007)

May07 said:


> My question is, were the school negligent in their handling of my nephew,



In my opinion, No. (I'm not a solicitor)



May07 said:


> ..because his parents had not been notified of the incident they unfortunately did not make an informed decision about the follow up care for their child.



I don't understand? You said...


May07 said:


> ...they brought him to doctor about 5 hours after school finishing because he was limping and crying with pain.





May07 said:


> I understand people will think it's the Insurance culture we are in that has me posting like this but as I keep telling my sister if she or anyone else had fallen in work and were not offered any assistance until after their finish time, would they accept that and I don't think so. It is my understanding that teachers have a duty of care and this involves treating each child as if it were their own, I'm not talking over the top stuff I just mean advising someone else who is the responsible person (the parent) of the incident and letting them make the decision.



I think you're expecting the teachers to bear a higher burden of care than the parents in this case. 

The teachers made a judgement at the time of the child's injury. They didn't realise that the injury was more serious than apparent at the time.

Similarly, the parents made a judgement when the child came home from school. They didn't realise that the injury was more serious than apparent at the time.

I don't think you can argue that the teachers were negligent unless you also concede that the parents were also negligent in not seeking attention for their child at the earliest possible opportunity.


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## zag (21 May 2007)

I don't think the school were negligent, because at the time there was no 'accident'.  It only became an accident with hindsight and medical examination.  This doesn't mean that the child wasn't injured, but that in practical terms it seems the child and non-medical staff weren't aware of the level of damage at the time and with the evidence to hand.

*If* the child was clearly in ongoing pain at the time then the school might be negligent, but if the child fell, cried, got up and a teacher was of the opinion that the child was OK then it would be no different than the many, many times I see children in my kids school run into each other and fall every day in the yard.

There's something not clear from your post - you indicate initially that the teachers said the fall was no different than others and didn't report it, but you also say they said that they would have reported it if there was a full days school.  This doesn't add up.  It either was sufficiently serious at the time to warrant action and a report or it wasn't - having a half day shouldn't come into it *unless* it was after school and the childs parent or guardian was in the yard at the same time as the teacher and assisted after the fall.

z


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## May07 (21 May 2007)

ubiquitous said:


> In my opinion, No. (I'm not a solicitor)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

Yes but that's what I am saying, if they had been informed by the school they would without doubt have brought him straight to the Doctor or Hospital.  I see it that the school did not follow their own Accident Reporting Procedures which says that in all cases of school accidents the parents shall be advised, this wasn't done!


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## ubiquitous (21 May 2007)

May07 said:


> if they had been informed by the school they would without doubt have brought him straight to the Doctor or Hospital.



Are you sure? I don't bring my kids straight to the Doctor or Hospital every time they fall. 

What age is the child? Surely if they are at school they are old enough to tell their parents if (1) they fell at school; and/or (2) they are in pain? The parents would hardly need a letter from the school in order to act on the child's complaint?

With the delays in A&E depts nowadays, I think you would have a hard time trying to argue that someone can be held legally liable for a treatment delay of 5 hours.


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## May07 (21 May 2007)

zag said:


> I don't think the school were negligent, because at the time there was no 'accident'. It only became an accident with hindsight and medical examination. This doesn't mean that the child wasn't injured, but that in practical terms it seems the child and non-medical staff weren't aware of the level of damage at the time and with the evidence to hand.
> 
> If* the child was clearly in ongoing pain at the time then the school might be negligent, but if the child fell, cried, got up and a teacher was of the opinion that the child was OK then it would be no different than the many, many times I see children in my kids school run into each other and fall every day in the yard.
> 
> ...


 

Yes thats exactly what they said, they said if it had been a full day in school his pain might have become more apparent and they might then have asked him how he was feeling and would have re-acted on this and notified the principal. This school also has a qualified First Aider but said they only get him involved if there is an incidence where there is blood eg. nose bleeds etc.


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## sheena1 (21 May 2007)

Surely every time a child falls in the yard the parents don't have to be notified? That would be a huge administration burden on any school. Where do you draw the line? The teachers are not medical experts but presumably if they thought the child was injured they would have informed the principal? If the child was not in pain leaving the school then surely the teachers could not have known the extent of the injury and if he was in pain leaving the school why didn't the parents take the child to the hospital immediately instead of waiting 5 hours?


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## May07 (21 May 2007)

ubiquitous said:


> Are you sure? I don't bring my kids straight to the Doctor or Hospital every time they fall.
> 
> What age is the child? Surely if they are at school they are old enough to tell their parents if (1) they fell at school; and/or (2) they are in pain? The parents would hardly need a letter from the school in order to act on the child's complaint?
> 
> With the delays in A&E depts nowadays, I think you would have a hard time trying to argue that someone can be held legally liable for a treatment delay of 5 hours.


 

Well thats what I am saying, they were not given the choice to make a decision, they would have gone to the school and seen how he was, perhaps brought him home but at least then it would have been their decision whether they left it for 5 hours or 5 days.  I personally believe if a parent gets a call from a school they do react on it.


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## ubiquitous (21 May 2007)

May07 said:


> I personally believe if a parent gets a call from a school they do react on it.



But, further to sheena1s point, its ludicrous to suggest that a school should have to notify parents each & every time a child falls.

Btw, I'm not sure why you asked the original question (ie "were the school negligent in their handling of my nephew") as you seem to have a very fixed opinion on the answer.


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## May07 (21 May 2007)

Ok well obviously it looks like a case of bad luck then, just for the record the parents didn't just bring him home and do nothing, they strapped up his foot, gave him calpol the usual and when it did not appear to have helped thats when they brought him to the hospital.


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## jrewing (21 May 2007)

In a yard full of 300 kids, there are inevitably many many falls, trips, scratches and dead legs every day. This is part of kids growing up.

It is not practical (nor necessary IMO) to expect teachers to inform parents of every single incident (assuming they judge it on the spot to be not serious). Teachers do their best to supervise children and will generally err on the side of caution in the case of an accident.

The compo culture sickens me...spare the moral outrage, tell your sister to find a real problem to worry about!

PS: I am not a teacher


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## May07 (21 May 2007)

ubiquitous said:


> But, further to sheena1s point, its ludicrous to suggest that a school should have to notify parents each & every time a child falls.
> 
> Btw, I'm not sure why you asked the original question (ie "were the school negligent in their handling of my nephew") as you seem to have a very fixed opinion on the answer.


 
They school admitted themselves they should have notified the parents, this is not in dispute, the principal acknowledged himself that their own school guidlelines had not been followed as the teacher on the school yard did say it was obvious the child was is distress but he notified the childs teacher (which is what he is meant to do).

And yes your right I do believe they acted in apppropriately, however my sister and BIL do not think it's that straightforward.  Ask yourself if it was your child how would you react, that's all I'm saying.


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## Haille (21 May 2007)

As an ex principal its a case of pure bad luck.School negligence arises if the yard was not supervised at the time which in this case it was.Its only in recent years that teachers get paid for lunchtime supervision ,all have the right to refuse to do it.The 24 hour accident insurance scheme allows insurance cover for accidents where the yard is supervised at the time.
    Teachers on yard duty have to continuously make judgement calls with 1st aid knowledge.Sometimes injuries are more serious than apparent.In cases of severe bleeding /head injuries parents are normally notified immediately.Other cases minor falls/grazes normally receive 1st aid treatment.Usually if a child gets sick or sustains a fall teachers re check on pupils condition after 30 mins in class if still in distress parents are contacted.
    One cannot compare treatment a parent would give at home and treatment given at school.All schools would not be allowed to administer calpol to any pupil.There are very specific guidelines with regards the administration of medicines.Remember the teachers on the yard usually bring the injured child inside to treat.They still have to maintain supervision of yard.By having teachers supervise yards follow up in class is possible later.If one brings in outside supervisers to do yard duty they supervise for lunchbreaks only.As a parent one often makes mistaken judgement calls.


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## BlueSpud (21 May 2007)

May07 said:


> Ask yourself if it was your child how would you react, that's all I'm saying.


 
If you really want to know, I would accept it as an accident. You have said nothing that make me even suspicious that it was anything else. I'm not sure what your sore about, the child being hurt or the fact that you don't seem to have an angle to get at the school. Bringing this further will compromise the time when there is a genuine case.

Why don't you put yourself in the teachers position, I am sure that they too are not getting much sleep wondering whether this will blow up in their faces. They are aware enough nowadays to report something if it looks report-worthy. None of the teachers in my kids school have x-ray glasses.

For what it's worth, I am not a teacher but i do run an after-school football group. Things like this make me wonder why..........


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## May07 (21 May 2007)

BlueSpud said:


> If you really want to know, I would accept it as an accident. You have said nothing that make me even suspicious that it was anything else. I'm not sure what your sore about, the child being hurt or the fact that you don't seem to have an angle to get at the school. Bringing this further will compromise the time when there is a genuine case.
> .


 
He's not my child he's my nephew so my personal oponion will not make any difference at the end of the day either ways and I'm not sore about anything other than the fact that I don't believe my nephew was treated adequately, he at least should have been brought to the first aider.

Anyway enough said the point has been taken.


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## susie1 (21 May 2007)

i'm just curious, how long after the fall was the child in school for, i presume it wasn't that long as it was a half day.

does his parents collect him or how does he get home (would a teacher not notify them on collection or put a note in his journal maybe?)  i do think the parents are more accountable as they know their own child and how he reacts with accidents, pain etc and should know if he is really injured, i don't think that would take 5hrs for the penny to drop before they realise he is hurt and needs further attention..jmo


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## Vanilla (21 May 2007)

What age is your nephew? What did he have to say about how the accident happened? What did he say to the teachers about his injury?

Did the hospital suggest that the fact that he wasn't brought in sooner to the hospital could have exascerbated his injuries? What was the time of his injury/what time was he collected from school/what time did his parents bring him to hospital?


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## ailbhe (21 May 2007)

If it was my child I'd just take it as it is. Kid fell, didn't seem hurt, got home and got worse and I brought them to the hospital. I would trust the teachers to act in the best interest of the child.

Like the day my daughter got chicken pox.
 I saw 2 spots on her that morning, didn't realise they were chicken pox, sent her off to creche without word and got a call 2 hours later to say she was covered in hem. She also gave them to the rest of her class.
Should I be sued for not being more careful and not realising dd had this disease? Or should it just be the way it was i.e. nothing said because I would never deliberatly harm another child or cause them misery. 

Your nephew clearly was not in a huge amount of pain after the incident. Also I'd be pretty annoyed if every time my daughter fell/complained of feeling ill I was called. Or every evening when I went to collect her there was an accident report form waiting for me to see and sign and discuss.

For serious matters (kid getting beaten up/falling from a height etc) I'd expect one but they can't do it every time nor would most parents want them to.
I would advise your sister to let this go. It was an accident. The child was supervised at the time of the incident. What was he doing when he fell? 

Soon schools won't be able to have play time. Running has already been banned in our local playground as some parent sued when their child fell and knocked out a tooth. Don't you want kids to have any freedom?


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## Eeek!!!! (21 May 2007)

I think it's worrying if a school's accident reporting procedures are discretionary. A parent deserves to be properly notified so they can take appropriate (medical) action if warranted.
Of course this was an accident and I don't think there's any suggestion that the school are at fault for letting it happen, but I think they dropped the ball in not reporting it to the principal so the parents could be notified. Of course the method of notification is up for discussion (but seriously, who wouldn't accept a quick call saying 'your child had an accident, they're ok but you might want to follow it up at home); in my nephew's school, any playground incidents are reported to the parents with a standard slip of paper that basically says 'there was an incident at school today, please follow up at home'. It's pre-printed, quick and easy. 
May 07, I can appreciate your frustration and would be worried that something more serious like a bump on the head might go unreported because the child didn't kick up a fuss - some kids don't.


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## justsally (21 May 2007)

Are there not defined regulations in relation to accidents at school.    Is it acceptable for the teachers to make a judgement call on whether or not to record the accident?.   The full consequences of any accident may not become apparent until some time after the event, better to safe than sorry.   I would always prefer to be told if my child had hurt himself at school, no matter how trivial it might seem to the non-parent of the child.

 It has recently come to the fore that members of the board of management,* including the parents who give of their time on a voluntary basis, can be sued*; as individuals they are not protected by the department of education.  Mary Hanafin spoke about this recently.  It is, therefore, important  in my opinion that everything possible is done, and all  required procedures carried out so as to avoid litigacious situations.


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## May07 (21 May 2007)

Eeek and justsally thank you, you have said exactly the point I was trying to make but perhaps my way of putting it was not politically correct. My nephews parents were more concerned by the fact that no one saw it fit to make them aware that he had fallen, be it by phone or just a note in a journal instead they left it to a 9year old child to do.

My reason for posting this is because after speaking again with the school last week they enquired as to whether all future incidents would be dealt with within school policy and the principal said he was happy with the way the situation had been dealt with and it was always school policy to report school yard incidents to the parents as in their School Policy but this one had been an oversight!!!


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## Gordanus (21 May 2007)

Fractures in children are difficult to diagnose without Xray as because their bones are still growing, they get 'greenstick' fratures.  My own child had a fracture in her foot, which I only took her to hospital for on the 3rd day because pain was intermittant and no sign of swelling till then.


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## dereko1969 (21 May 2007)

your original post mentioned this:
"the doctors bills are covered by the Insurance but nothing else, nothing for taking time off to bring their child to a hospital every week 50miles away and having to take time off work for this" so surely people could surmise from this (and the title of the thread) that there was a financial element to your query? If I were the principal of the school i would for 2 weeks follow the thrust of the last three posts and report every single little mishap and that would solve the problem as all the parents would be up in arms about being rung or informed of every little detail. if your nephews parents took 5 hours to decide post-calpol to bring him to the hospital surely some responsibility lies with them and the child rather than the teachers or the school. having said that i hope the child recovers from this traumatic event.


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## May07 (21 May 2007)

God what has it come to when now it comes down to a 9 year old child being responsible for the school (who were his carers at the time) not acting within THEIR OWN guidelines. 

Oh enough, I'm starting to wonder why any of us pay insurance anyway, cos if we were to work of the basis of most of these replies then no-one would ever make a complaint, no-one only parents and children would be held accoutable for school accidents so there would be no need for these ridiculous premiums everyone pays for pubic liability, wouldn't it be a great old world alright! Wonder if the fall had been in one of the major retail stores would attitudes be any different.


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## Red (21 May 2007)

Where do you draw the line on reportable accidents?? What is a reportable accident ??
Does a paper cut that drew blood warrant an accident report , a note in the journal & a phone call to the parent ??? 
Accident do & will happen. Next time the child will be a little wiser & will have learnt actions have consequences.

Teachers will do the best they can to mind.

It took his own parent 5 hours to realise something was wrong so how do you expect the teacher to get it right in an instance


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## Eeek!!!! (21 May 2007)

To clarify my own position:
Do I think the school failed in its duty of care by not following its own reporting procedures for accidents? Absolutely.
Do I think the parents should be compensated for having to deal with the aftermath of a playground accident? No, playground accidents are a fact of life (unless gross negligence is involved).
As for children having accidents in major retail stores, in that case they should be under parental control so I would deem the parent responsible (unless gross negligence is involved).


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## paddi22 (21 May 2007)

I'm sure the situation in your post could have been avoided by teachers carrying around and being trained on xray machines - or sending a flurry of forms home whenever any child got a bump. Personally I'd prefer to see their time spent teaching and interacting with children, instead of filling forms for every scrape and cut.

I just accept that children can fall anywhere and accidents can happen that aren't particularly anyones fault. As for your point about if it had happened in a retail store - well, if the retail store had caused the accident through unsafe or faulty conditions I'd agree with you. But this child fell in a playground through noone elses fault. Its this kind of litigious thinking that stops children's after school programmes and bans running in playgrounds for fear of lawsuits.

As for the taking time off work to bring the child to hospital? well maybe the posters relation should have got some kind of hassle free pet instead of a child. That way they won't have to worry about the added inconvienience that children bring. Its people claiming for stuff like that that pushes school insurance up - and has schools spending a fortune on insurance instead of materials and equipment for children.


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## orka (21 May 2007)

May07 said:


> .....this incident had not been notified to to school principal. ..





May07 said:


> .. both teachers who were on yard duty were happy enough that the fall was no different to other falls within the yard and were shocked by the injury sustained and therefore didn't see the need to notify the principal of the incident. ..
> . copy of the Schools Accident reporting procedures. When his father asked why the procedure was not followed ie parents notified, the Principal said he could not notify him of it as he was not made aware by the teachers on yard duty ...




The question is not 'why wasnt the accident procedure followed?' but 'why wasn't the accident deemed serious enough to warrant the accident procedure'?  It seems pretty clear that the teachers on yard duty made a judgement call that this was a non-serious bog-standard fall (of which there must be hundreds/thousands every day in Irish schools) and so not deserving of an accident report in line with the school reporting procedure.  And I think teachers/yard supervisors should be allowed reasonable freedom to make these judgement calls - even if they get it wrong (in either direction) occasionally.  

Teachers would be up to their eyes in paperwork if they had to follow 'the procedure' and fill in forms for every knock and fall in the playground.  And I would take a very dim view of being called/phoned/notified of every slight incident involving my children.


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## Perplexed (22 May 2007)

Years ago when my son was in primary school, I got a call from the Principal informing me that he had been in an accident, not serious he assured me but if possible could I come to the school.

My son, aged about 10 at the time had been playing some kind of chase game in the playground & accidently hit his head off the corner of the wall. He was sitting in the Principals office when I arrived with a nasty bleeding cut on his forehead but being well looked after. I thanked the Principal for looking after him  & calling me & proceeded to take my son to the doctor where he received 3 stitches.

I had paid the school insurance but did I even think of putting in a claim ? It never even struck me ! I was just happy that nothing worse had happened & that my son was ok & was too busy looking after him (as well as my other two children) I always assumed that these insurance policies (at that time they cost around €10pa) were for really major injuries.

Did my son blame the friend who was chasing him ? Not at all, as it could easily have been the other way round.

When so many serious things can happen to children, why make a fuss over something minor ? Nothing life threatening was involved. Yes, I would expect to be notified if an accident occurred that required immediate attention. Your nephew is ok, no lasting damage was done, so I don't really understand the problem.

Are children to be wrapped in cotton wool & not allowed to run & play in case they hurt themselves occasionally ? Should we not be prepared to give the time & money it takes to make them better if they do get injured ? Is that not part & parcel of what we take on when we decide to become parents ?


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## so-crates (23 May 2007)

I am no teacher but to be honest as most other posters have pointed out, children trip, fall, push, kick, etc all the time. The reporting procedures would have to allow a judgment call on the part of the supervising teachers as to whether the incident warranted further action. The child may not even have had a bruise or any swelling at the time of the incident or for some time after and was capable of walking away from it. Only the child can communicate if they are in pain and at 9 years of age they are capable of determining how comfortable they are. The yard was supervised, the supervisors were aware of the incident, the supervisors examined the incident and determined to the best of their ability that the incident was not sufficiently serious to warrant reporting. Chances are within a few minutes of the incident the child was sitting down in the classroom (unless it was immediately before they left school) and didn't feel particularly bad. If the child had been there for a full day and had complained later of pain or been seen to be limping it would be a different matter. That the parents made a similar initial judgment call to the teachers is indicative of how serious it appeared initially. The child probably worsened as the day went on which of course prompted the parents to take the child to the doctor (who you'll notice probably suspected but did not diagnose a broken foot). IMHO the school was not negligent. That later events proved their initial decision incorrect is not the point, they did not have the same information as the parents did 5 hours later. To report every knock where there is no visible injury would be a needless administrative burden and would not necessarily have altered the parent's subsequent actions as well insist that every school is fitted with x-ray machines and have a policy of x-raying every child that falls!! I can't see why you think there is any negligence on the part of the school. There is inconvenience, there is a child feeling poorly but from what you say, at no point was the child not treated with due consideration. It was bad luck.


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## nelly (23 May 2007)

while not wanting really to comment on the accident I am more preturbed at the apparent blaze approach to safety reporting. Surely the yard teachers have a pen and paper to write " Mary x banged heads with Sally y", tears stopped after 2 minutes and they played well thereafter. Reportable / non-reportable to parents" and hand that to Principle? as a cover my a** for the school if nothing else. The principle cannot just say "sure i never heard about it" his teachers report to him.

The fact that this boy had two fractures and could not articulate to the teacher that he was in pain puzzles me. 

For the OP to suggest that compensation could be appropriate for ferrying child to hospital and leaving work etc all i would say is that it comes with the territory of having children i think.


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## terrysgirl33 (23 May 2007)

I have heard of a few cases of children who had a fall/bang, had a bit of a niggling pain, and then found out (in one case it was 3 days later) that there was a broken bone.  It sounds quite likely that the boy was not in any great pain at the time.  At 9, I would expect him to be able to say he had a fall.  How was he when came home?


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