# Buying a pub - show me the way to go....



## stocious (12 Apr 2007)

hey folks, first time post on this. Looking for any help, would be much appreciated.

For years and years i've been absolutely convinced that i could make a pub a massive success. Now i'm thinking of getting the ball rolling. I've a good job but prepared to take the risk and go for it.

Now, would anyone have any ideas at all how i'd go about buying a pub? (apart from starting a business plan, talknig to other owners, research etc whick i will of course do).

eg. can i buy a licence anywhere and then renovate premises somewhere else?
how much typically would a bank lend?
best to lease or buy? easier to lease i'm taking it? 
where do i find out what pubs are for sale? are they all advertised?

any point in the right direction would be great, and a few free scoops when it happens.


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## ubiquitous (12 Apr 2007)

Best bet if you're serious about the idea is to rent a pub for a while and see how it goes. Buying a pub nowadays is such a serious financial commitment that you would be unlikely to get sufficent finance from lenders unless they have absolute confidence in your ability to make the venture a success, and you have considerable financial resources of your own.


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## Carpenter (12 Apr 2007)

Have you really thought about this?  Many pubs are struggling now and unless you inherit the family business it's not the gravy train it once was.  I know someone who was in the business for years but wasn't sorry when they got out of it just a few years ago- long hours, no break from it and not really compatible with family life (fine if you're young and have no kids); I think you nearly have to be born into the business.  Sorry just my tuppence worth to dampen your enthusiasm.


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## stocious (12 Apr 2007)

thanks for the opinions folks. i know all about the current situation with the plight of pubs. i have a friend whose family were in the business for decades and are well out of it.

it's hardened my resolve in that i ask what degree have publicans been complacent as well as conditions going against them. of course, i'll look at probably  opening up in a city, as this is where the potential really is, unless there is an area with such hustle bussle in the countryside that i could get a retun of custom on my ideas.

so, if recommending leasing, are these advertised? and if so, are they advetised much as i don't see them often? whats prices, roughly, on leases, and again would you know what the banks would lend on a yearly lease?

thanks.


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## Tea & Coffee (12 Apr 2007)

I know there are several Estate Agents who deal primarily with pubs 

dooley.ie being one I know of. There are a few pubs for lease etc about the place if you look on the myhome website in the commercial section.

Wicklow Arms, Script etc in Greystones are being sold.
There is a new pub lease for sale in Charlesland- also in Greystones (do people in Greaystones not drink?!?   )

There are a few more on the site if u check it out

HTH


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## ClubMan (12 Apr 2007)

stocious said:


> For years and years i've been absolutely convinced that i could make a pub a massive success.


Have you sanity checked that belief against something like an objective business plan?


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## Welfarite (12 Apr 2007)

I may be wrong about this but I seem to recall hearing somewhere that the price of a pub is ratio-based on certified turnover?


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## elefantfresh (12 Apr 2007)

I head just recently of a pub in dublin up for lease - in a "rough(ish)" part of town - the money they're looking for is 20k up front deposit and then 1800e per week - i dont know what the turnover is but i've had a few pints in there and i'd suspect that for maybe one or two people going in together, a few bob could be made. tough life though, make no mistake.


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## ubiquitous (12 Apr 2007)

Welfarite said:


> I may be wrong about this but I seem to recall hearing somewhere that the price of a pub is ratio-based on certified turnover?



This was the case many moons ago but factors such as (i) the market value (including development potential) of the property; (ii) the potential letting income if let; and (iii) the market value of the licence, are all much more important nowadays.


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## stocious (12 Apr 2007)

many thanks again for the sites. myhome seems to be pretty useful and i'll keep an eye on that alright. i'll be drawing up a business plans in the next couple of months.i'll make my projections conservative to keep things tight and leave plenty of room for upside results. again, any further ideas keep them coming.


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## hotelieur (12 Apr 2007)

Opening a PUB? Unless you got superb idea that no one does in town and situated at heavy footed public places, you will make money. Otherwise rent it, make it happening and give it a shot.

But to give it a shot, you need to find all the details:
1. Licensing first!
2. Financial support. The more of your own is better.
3. Cash Flow projections, at least be realistic. Always expect more costs than less! in other words "A Solid Business Plan". You could reach your goals easier this way.
4. Make it trendy! Have a patio and serving tapas! So be picky about your location. After all, its about making money and selling ideas.
5. Stock Control! This is the trickiest part if you intend to hire staff to work for you. Have a system in hand and use it consistently.

And food for thoughts, I've known few Pub owners who suffered a lot lately, bad sales and sometimes no sales. They survived because they own the place and only families are working. Personally I think, people are now looking for new trendy and happening places, be it in small town or where ever! 

So make carefull judgement though and don't rush!

Best of luck!


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## ubiquitous (12 Apr 2007)

The problem with aiming for the "new trendy and happening" market is that in six months time your premises may not be as "new trendy and happening" as the place down the road and you can lose a large chunk of your custom literally overnight. At the very best you would find yourself having to reinvest continuously in new fixtures, furniture etc just to stay "at the cutting edge" as it were. The alternative market strategy of spit, sawdust and Guinness drinkers may be less spectacular but it also should prove less fickle and ultimately more profitable.


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## Firefly (13 Apr 2007)

No experience whatsoever here but I remember reading about the fella who owns about 8 big pubs in Dublin and his advice at the time was to never buy a pub with a car park. 

Firefly.


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## pjbrady1 (14 Apr 2007)

Should you be considering towns that are expanding in population. I'm not interested in opening a pub but I noticed a pub on daft.ie in Carlow. THe lease is 70,000. Huge pub. I would recommend closing down the restaurant part of it and doing pub food. Check it out it might still be on there.


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## Fintan (14 Apr 2007)

Personally I think you should go get a job in a pub first, and see if you are able for the lifestyle, plus you will learn a lot about the industry which should help you make less mistakes when you start your own pub.


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## PM1234 (14 Apr 2007)

Would second the idea of standing at the other side of the bar before putting your money into the pub business. You only have to research the frequency with which pubs change hands to realise this.

If you have been self employed before then you are at an advantage. 

The pub life is a hard life with only two official days off a year. Tips for running a successful pub depends on your local market which depends on the location of the premises. However I would agree with Ubiquitous that the old style pub is a far more dependable one.


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## ninsaga (14 Apr 2007)

This is a wind up right!...... a poster called 'Stocious' with a subject title of (all together now).....show me the way to go....home..I'm tired & I wanna gotta bed....

...very clever indeed!


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## stocious (16 Apr 2007)

no no, although i made a play on the song and name, still all very serious. I had thought about getting bar work to gain the vital experience, and i do recognise how important that would be. i may indeed take on some weekend bar work to do that.

the other thing is, i hnow one or two bar managers to whom i'd think of putting a proposition of going into the business as partners, which means the expertise is there already and of course give a great start. while i'm more thinkin of myself as providing overall management and ideas, he could deal with the ins and outs of running the show. 

I was prepared for negative (but of course constructive) feedback when i posted, and the frequent thing i hear is that its tough work, little holidays, working most hours of the day and week. well, i'm prepared to put hard graft into it until its successful and then take a back seat and allow the managers to run the place with some input from myself. thats the ideal anyways......


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## stocious (16 Apr 2007)

also, i'd agree with the more traditional pub theme. altho tradtion mixed with a bit more of technology. 
i think the lack of music and the conservativeness in the pub scene in the country is shocking. theres people asking themselves where to go on a night out and can never decide cos all the pubs have become so homogenous and bland. it all needs new ideas, freshness. otherwise the malaise goes on.....


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## ClubMan (16 Apr 2007)

Is your goal here to make a living or to revolutionise the licensing industry? 

Did you do up a business plan yet?


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## KalEl (16 Apr 2007)

My advice would be to avoid the pub game like the plague.
Nowadays most are just fronts for the underlying property play and unless you're going in with a pile of cash you'll struggle to make repayments on your finance.


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## Bob_tg (16 Apr 2007)

There was an article yesterday in the Sunday Business Post about the market for pubs.  The going rate these days has come down a bit and is now 2.5-3 times certified turnover, and that pubs with car parks are being sold off.
Here is the link to the article...
[broken link removed]


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## z107 (16 Apr 2007)

> i think the lack of music and the conservativeness in the pub scene in the country is shocking. theres people asking themselves where to go on a night out and can never decide cos all the pubs have become so homogenous and bland. it all needs new ideas, freshness. otherwise the malaise goes on



A pub's primary goal (like any business) is to make money. Secondary might be to entertain punters. Consider that there is probably a reason that pubs 'lack music and are very conservative'. It might be the best way to make money.

Maybe an experienced pub owner might be able to tell you why they run their pub the way they do.


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## Morgause (16 Apr 2007)

stocious said:


> i think the lack of music and the conservativeness in the pub scene in the country is shocking.



A lot of people like that though (e.g. Stag's Head, Grogans).  Personally I dislike pubs with music and televisions as I'd rather talk to people.  Most of my friends would think the same.  If I want music, I'll go to a club.  But for pints and chat, I want a telly-free pub.  Perhaps I am in the minority there though!


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## PM1234 (16 Apr 2007)

> Is your goal here to make a living or to revolutionise the licensing industry?


  



> i think the lack of music and the conservativeness in the pub scene in the country is shocking. theres people asking themselves where to go on a night out and can never decide cos all the pubs have become so homogenous and bland. it all needs new ideas, freshness. otherwise the malaise goes on.....


 

The premises have to suit the local market.  When your business is restricted to a smaller location is it better to alienate regular customers who spend more or have a clubscene which may do well on a Saturday night?


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## oaky9 (19 Apr 2007)

hi im 32 and was born and reared in a pub and am still working for my mam and dad and 5 years ago purchased another pub in out small town. we borrowed alot and have paid it off through property sales. its a lot larger than our original pub and we were paying 6k a month in repayments and we have paid for it now. as for market conditions everyone is saying pubs are on the decline and business is bad but i have to say dont lose faith during the day is totally dead but i dont mind that as there is lots of small jobs to do . some pubs close by our area dont open till evening on monday till friday so u can go golfing swimming or horse racing and come back at 6 o clock and earn your money then. you really make your money on the weekends but u really need an established premises and in a small village or town . isolated country pubs are limited to the locals if ur on a main road in a town it helps . if you have any questions just email me . if u had a wife or partner who is willing to work with u is a big advantage too


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## simplyjoe (21 Apr 2007)

More dreaming. You feel you could give it a go but yet you have no research done. You have made the decision before having the facts.
I had worked in pubs for years, left got a professional qualification, got dreaming and bought a pub with my brother. What a mistake. You do not know what tiredness means until you run a pub. You do not know the stress. Try these factors 

Underage drinking - No matter what you do you will not achieve zero underage drinking. We got prosecuted even though the guy had a false ID (he was actually 17 years and 10 months old). His father bought him the drink and his employer verified his age. 4 people in this situation. The only one prosecuted was the one person who did not know he was underage. The other 3 got off scott free. Crazy. 
Hours - Close on time have no customers - stay open and have frequent appearances at court.
Voilence - Toilets broken, fighting, drunken yobs, broken windows, bouncers, CCTV, mirrors.
Late hours - Clean up by 3 AM deliveries at 9.30 am. 
'The new going out is staying in'. True more people now drinking wine, etc at home. Parties, giant screen LCD tvs with sky sports, movies all in your own home.
Travellers - the law rightly says you must serve them but as soon as you do you are a target of the Gardai who actively persue pubs who serve travellers. Also you will lose a large chunk of your customers.
Children - the law says you have to admit children but you cannot serve them alcohol. Crazy!
IMRO
Reclycling
Other waste
Cleaning
Health inspectors
Drugs - check out your sinks after a saturday night!
Drug pushers.
Staff stealing
Staff sick 
Surly staff
Smell
Alcoholic customers dying
VAT
Rates
PAYE
Insurance
Staff pensions

Need I go on - YOU ARE MAD - Stop dreaming the bubble has burst.


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## RainyDay (21 Apr 2007)

simplyjoe said:


> Travellers - the law rightly says you must serve them but as soon as you do you are a target of the Gardai who actively persue pubs who serve travellers. Also you will lose a large chunk of your customers.


The law does not say that you must serve travellers or anybody. The law states that you must not discriminate against them (e.g. refuse the serve them) because they are travellers.


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## oaky9 (22 Apr 2007)

excellent reply simplyjoe. have the say i am realy lucky to be involved in a good pub. sounds like you were in a big town and rough clientele, have to say we have none of the problems you outlined . as for rates insurance etc. thats business.


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