# Mandatory BER B2 for refurb where > 25% surface area being renovated



## David_Dublin (21 Feb 2022)

Anyone familiar with this? https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/8...standards-for-major-renovations-to-buildings/

Seems like quite an overhead with doing a big refurb job.

Has anyone got any sort of checklist for what might get you to BER B2? As in, I'm not convinced my age of home would ever suit a heat pump, so wondering can you get to BER B2 with windows, wall/attic/floor insulation, new boiler, PV. I guess it depends on lots of things.

I'm not too sure how BER would work in relation to the requirements of this legislation - would you engage with a BER assesor before doing work, and work with them to understand what you would need to do in the scope of works to ensure you end up with a BER B2 rating?


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## jpd (21 Feb 2022)

There is no BER 2 rating - presumably you mean BER B2

I don't think there is a need to get a BER assessment before the work is done but as indicated in the link


> If you are planning on getting a major renovation done to your home it is a good idea to know about these requirements and to discuss them with an architect or planning professional before the project begins.



If it is a major renovation, the cost of a BER prior to work commencing should not be a block - after all, they will only cost a few hundred euro versus the tens of thousands,  if not hundreds, of thousand for a major renovation


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## David_Dublin (21 Feb 2022)

jpd said:


> There is no BER 2 rating - presumably you mean BER B2
> 
> I don't think there is a need to get a BER assessment before the work is done but as indicated in the link
> 
> ...


Thanks - have added B2, was a recurring typo.

I'm not worried about the cost of a BER prior to commencement, what I'm trying to establish is if you can get BER assessor to review the plan before you kick off to ensure you hit the B2 mark. Would be a "shame" to do 300k or more of work and have to re-do stuff if you came in under B2!


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## David_Dublin (21 Feb 2022)

I'm also interested in the "economically possible" qualification, can't seem to find an interpretations of this. Bit of a difficult one to pin down I imagine. Presumably anything is economically possible if you have the budget.


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## Leo (21 Feb 2022)

David_Dublin said:


> Has anyone got any sort of checklist for what might get you to BER B2?


This guide covers what it would take for the most common house types here. With the new deep retrofit scheme covering 50% of costs, achieving B2 or better is becoming a lot more affordable.


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## jpd (21 Feb 2022)

Your architect should be able to give assurances about the likely BER rating after the work is done. If he/she can't, get another one


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## Alkers86 (21 Feb 2022)

David_Dublin said:


> Anyone familiar with this? https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/8...standards-for-major-renovations-to-buildings/
> 
> Seems like quite an overhead with doing a big refurb job.
> 
> ...


Yes it is possible to get to a B2 with the measures you discuss.

When the solar PV grants were tied to BER ratings, it was possible to get a pre-installation BER, in which the assessor would consider the proposed measures and then calculate what the BER will be after the fact. Any BER assessor should be able to do this.

If you're not availing of any grants and engaging your own contractors etc, you're very unlikely to have any sort of checkign or enforcement carried out on your post works BER rating...


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## David_Dublin (21 Feb 2022)

Thanks @Alkers86 - my intention would be to avail of Grants, but using my own contractors. I will be somewhat limited in the contractors I can use as they will need to be SEAI certified from what I understand. I'd be happy for SEAI to verify/validate works. I'm happy to go through these extra hoops, and potentially slightly higher (gross) cost, to get the grants and end up with the B2.


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## Leo (22 Feb 2022)

Note if you go down the route of self-managed as opposed to the 'One Stop Shop' option, there are fewer grants available. From your list, you would not get grants for the floor insulation or windows.


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## David_Dublin (22 Feb 2022)

Thanks @Leo - I hadn't picked that up. If the Contractor is an SEAI (as they'd need to be to get the grants in the first place) presume you can do a One Stop Shop alongside a wider scope of works that would include extension and other bits & pieces?


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## fidelcastro (22 Feb 2022)

Leo said:


> Note if you go down the route of self-managed as opposed to the 'One Stop Shop' option, there are fewer grants available. From your list, you would not get grants for the floor insulation or windows.


Hi Leo, I read that. Sounds overly burecratic considering the amount of houses pre 2011 which need urgent upgrade works and the scarcity of "reliable" trades to carry out said works.


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## jpd (22 Feb 2022)

They can hardly give the subsidy money out to every jerry and his builder friend just on a whim


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## Leo (22 Feb 2022)

David_Dublin said:


> Thanks @Leo - I hadn't picked that up. If the Contractor is an SEAI (as they'd need to be to get the grants in the first place) presume you can do a One Stop Shop alongside a wider scope of works that would include extension and other bits & pieces?


Grants would cover improvements to the existing structure only, as the regs will dictate minimum standards for any new-build works, but I'd speak to a few contractors before you commence to ensure that the extension works won't disqualify you.


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## Savvy (22 Feb 2022)

David_Dublin said:


> Thanks @Leo - I hadn't picked that up. If the Contractor is an SEAI (as they'd need to be to get the grants in the first place) presume you can do a One Stop Shop alongside a wider scope of works that would include extension and other bits & pieces?


I was watching some SEAI youtube presentations with a Q&A on the Feb 14/15th announcement and they said that in some cases the One Stop Shop have links with building contractors and tie the whole lot together. Certainly something we are considering doing.

Slightly off topic but on the same video they stated that the government/SEAI are hoping to be announcing financing measures mid year. Currently Energia have a tie in with some of the credit unions for low cost loans. I would hope that it would be something similar with other lenders.


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## Leo (22 Feb 2022)

fidelcastro said:


> Hi Leo, I read that. Sounds overly burecratic considering the amount of houses pre 2011 which need urgent upgrade works and the scarcity of "reliable" trades to carry out said works.


The One Stop Shop approach is the opposite of overly burecratic! They organise it all for you and cover the project management costs. This is the best way to ensure that the grant money is spent wisely on suitable projects that will be completed to the required standards.


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## Leo (22 Feb 2022)

Savvy said:


> I was watching some SEAI youtube presentations with a Q&A on the Feb 14/15th announcement and they said that in some cases the One Stop Shop have links with building contractors and tie the whole lot together.


Yeah, they are seeking providers to offer the OSS service, so in many cases these will be directly tied to a single company.


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## fidelcastro (24 Feb 2022)

Leo said:


> The One Stop Shop approach is the opposite of overly burecratic! They organise it all for you and cover the project management costs. This is the best way to ensure that the grant money is spent wisely on suitable projects that will be completed to the required standards.


I suppose that is true, but I dont need project managers to oversea the simple task of replacing windows & doors, if I want to self-manage I am penalised!,


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## Leo (24 Feb 2022)

fidelcastro said:


> I suppose that is true, but I dont need project managers to oversea the simple task of replacing windows & doors, if I want to self-manage I am penalised!,


You don't have to use a PM if you so choose. Of course the SEAI aren't going to pay you to PM your own work. It's probably all moot anyway as if all you're doing is replacing windows and doors then you're unlikely to qualify for the OSS scheme which is aimed at deeper retrofits achieving a minimum reduction of 100kWh/m2/year.


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## fayf (24 Feb 2022)

If you do revisit the Heap Pump route, There is up to 2k in grants, available for project management services, for this type of work, if B2 or higher achieved.(scroll down to project management)









						One Stop Shop Service
					

A complete home energy upgrade solution for homeowners. Find out more.




					www.seai.ie
				




OSS is definitely the most straightforward, higher grants, and a bigger range of grants available, and the provider claims all the grants for you.

But, better got moving, as some who will likely be appointed as OSS certified, aka - already have a track record of dealing with SEAI, have already closed, their 2022 order books. 

I can’t find the article, but i read somewhere that the additional “launch” bonus of 2k(for heat pump), may not be available in 2023.


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## David_Dublin (24 Feb 2022)

fayf said:


> If you do revisit the Heap Pump route, There is up to 2k in grants, available for project management services, for this type of work, if B2 or higher achieved.(scroll down to project management)
> 
> 
> 
> ...



How can u get moving when they haven't listed the approved Contractors (as far as I know anyway)?

I'm unsure how OSS works if doing a wider piece of work that might include extending, presume you'd need to use the same contractor for the BER focused work and the extension?


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## Hooverfish (24 Feb 2022)

Think SEAI have been getting "feedback" on how bad these schemes are: https://www.independent.ie/news/env...-faster-shift-from-fossil-fuels-41370030.html "Support scheme design that focuses on meeting the minimum levels of fabric performance to support a switch away from fossil fuel heating sources is likely to see more uptake and require less investment,"


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## fayf (24 Feb 2022)

Several of the existing approved SEAI contractors, will be on that list, when its released, i’ve been onto a few and some already have full order books for 2022, with other commercial work. 

On the extension, i am unsure, but no harm in making some phone calls and getting some quotes, or getting a design started


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## David_Dublin (24 Feb 2022)

fayf said:


> Several of the existing approved SEAI contractors, will be on that list, when its released, i’ve been onto a few and some already have full order books for 2022, with other commercial work.
> 
> On the extension, i am unsure, but no harm in making some phone calls and getting some quotes, or getting a design started


I'm struggling to find any list of SEAI approved contractors. This link seems to be down: https://hes.seai.ie/GrantProcess/ContractorSearch.aspx

Already have planning so next step I think is to get a BER assessment done to advise how we get up to B2 and build that into the scope of works.


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## fidelcastro (25 Feb 2022)

Leo said:


> You don't have to use a PM if you so choose. Of course the SEAI aren't going to pay you to PM your own work. It's probably all moot anyway as if all you're doing is replacing windows and doors then you're unlikely to qualify for the OSS scheme which is aimed at deeper retrofits achieving a minimum of 100kWh/m2/year.


Hi Leo, if you look at the SEAI list, you can see windows and doors are included in the one-stop-shop scheme, but for some reason excluded from those who would prefer to direct-manage.  In my case, I have found through painful experience that referals from friends/colleagues is better than relying on a SEAI list of so called "appoved contractors". .


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## Leo (28 Feb 2022)

fidelcastro said:


> Hi Leo, if you look at the SEAI list, you can see windows and doors are included in the one-stop-shop scheme, but for some reason excluded from those who would prefer to direct-manage.


Just because you engage a one stop shop service doesn't preclude you from having an active role in the work. 

The OSS scheme covers a more extensive list of options as it is intended to encourage deep retrofits in poorly performing houses. These are homes most need of improvement where closer coordination of the works is required. As above you need to be able to show you'll achieve a minimum reduction of 100kWh/m2/year in order to qualify for the OSS scheme. Replacing windows and doors will come nowhere close to that requirement, and though I'd like to replace my own, it makes perfect sense that the priority is given to the worst performing homes.



fidelcastro said:


> I have found through painful experience that referals from friends/colleagues is better than relying on a SEAI list of so called "appoved contractors". .


Why are they 'so called approved'. Are you suggesting some of them are not approved? If you have experience with an approved contractor performing sub-par work, I presume you reported that to the SEAI? They will organise an inspection and if they confirm issues, the contractor will face additional inspections or be removed from the list.


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## fidelcastro (28 Feb 2022)

Leo said:


> Just because you engage a one stop shop service doesn't preclude you from having an active role in the work.
> 
> The OSS scheme covers a more extensive list of options as it is intended to encourage deep retrofits in poorly performing houses. These are homes most need of improvement where closer coordination of the works is required. As above you need to be able to show you'll achieve a minimum reduction of 100kWh/m2/year in order to qualify for the OSS scheme. Replacing windows and doors will come nowhere close to that requirement, and though I'd like to replace my own, it makes perfect sense that the priority is given to the worst performing homes.
> 
> ...


Hi Leo I agree with the aims of the OSS scheme viz to focus on worst performing houses.   And your advice is actually very good in general, so thank you, for those who require assistance.

Does the 100kWh/m2/year reduction somehow imply that a BER based assessment is required pre/post?.   I dont think the BER assessment can make this judgement call with sufficient accuracy I'm afraid - I defer to the greater knowledge of engineers viz Micks'r et al for this assertion and my reading of how said analysis is done based on punching in faith based information into a "model" rather than measurement of a bulidings  conduction, convective and radiative heat performance .

Just from reading the information, the retrofit scheme applies to houses built before 2011,  I have made incremental improvements and carried out OS based surveys of the thermal and ventilation performane of my dwelling.  I do also agree with "every little helps" and so if the scheme is open to residences built pre 2011 , then I dont understand why additional  barriers to qualification of the scheme is required, when as I wrote I need external doors to be replaced in my dwelling and with thermal and ventilation surveys  I do  not need further  middle management "advice",  - advisors as we all know will all have to be paid for.

Re SEAI, the Dept of Env standards are not up to scratch compared to standard european building standards and regulations, you only need to listen to the shoddy pyrite scandal and schools buildings programmes to know where the reality, rather than bluster is.  As a result fuel poverty is a bigger problem in Ireland than it needs to be despite living in quite a benign climate , and we are further on-the hook to the gas and oil supplies & prices influenced by  Putin and his ilk.

F.


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## Leo (28 Feb 2022)

fidelcastro said:


> Does the 100kWh/m2/year reduction somehow imply that a BER based assessment is required pre/post?. I dont think the BER assessment can make this judgement call with sufficient accuracy I'm afraid - I defer to the greater knowledge of engineers viz Micks'r et al for this assertion and my reading of how said analysis is done based on punching in faith based information into a "model" rather than measurement of a bulidings conduction, convective and radiative heat performance .


Yes, The SEAI guide is very clear in that in order to be eligible the dwelling must meet a number of criteria:



> Was built and occupied before 2011 for insulation and heating controls
> Was built and occupied before 2011 for renewable systems grants
> Has an existing BER of B3 or lower and must achieve a minimum rating of B2 on work completion, with a 100kWh/m2/year or better improvement on the BER primary energy value
> Has not previously received grants for the same home energy upgrades



My thoughts on the BER system are well documented elsewhere on here, but they certainly have the accuracy required for the purpose of administering these grants. Do you want to explain how your measurement based system would work and how much it would cost? Surely you know that such a measurement system would cost in the thousands to perform, and that carrying out such an extensive survey before and after all works would offset most if not all of the financial incentives the grants are designed to provide?

To say that assessors are using 'faith' to punch in data suggests you don't really understand the process or the requirements assessors must meet in order to be licensed to carry out BER assessments. It's many years since anyone with some basic knowledge could register.



fidelcastro said:


> The Dept of Env standards are not up to scratch compared to standard european building standards and regulations, you only need to listen to the shoddy pyrite scandal and schools buildings programmes to know where the reality, rather than bluster is.


What standard allowed for the presence of pyrite?

What specific regs do you think fall far short of European standards? Did you know we're below the EU average in terms of percentage of household energy use in space heating?


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## fidelcastro (28 Feb 2022)

Leo said:


> Yes, The SEAI guide is very clear in that in order to be eligible the dwelling must meet a number of criteria:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi Leo,  since I have a better thermal and ventilation survey, I dont need the BER information and certainly I dont see why this criteria should apply to a simple changing of two external doors.

The "faith" based model is because the building isnt /wasnt surveyed whilst works were being carried out.  So just because I have a window installed from Co X with a U value of 0 W/m2/K doesnt imply that NO heat is being lost through the windows by incorrect building methods / thermal bridges and air gaps due to poor on-site building methods and superstitions.

So I cannot say how much W/m2/year is being saved through replacing a Window and any predictions of kWh/m2/yr is based on "faith" .  The BER catches conductive effects, not radiative and convective.

We may have lower thermal space heating than EU average, but that isnt anything to write home about, based on the mild climate we live in.  We have little requirement for domestic space heating , we are not living in Finland, where on Christmas day in 2021 I woke up to -27C outside and had christmas dinner in +24C indoor temperature, wearing my shirt, not a wooly jumper.   Oh, I forgot too, this was a so called factory made "modular house". built in 1970's..

What standard allowed for pyrite.?.  Precisely, no to little building inspections are carried out during the cival works  builds, so the house standard is "faith" based .  You see , when houses are built using modern factory processes and methods, predictions of actual performance and measurements of reality can be readily made in the facility itself.  On site construction without inspection isnt comparable and kicking the walls to come up with a figure of merit isnt accurate enough I'm afraid, except in the minds of the Dept.

And so,  yes it is expensive.   If we had ever bothered with enforcing and coming up with decent regulations, then this vast expense of  energy upgrades would not be required in the first place and we would as a country saved a kings ransom with regard to fuel costs. We've had since the oil crisis of the 1973 to get our act together.


F.


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## Leo (28 Feb 2022)

fidelcastro said:


> Hi Leo, since I have a better thermal and ventilation survey, I dont need the BER information and certainly I dont see why this criteria should apply to a simple changing of two external doors.


What standard was the thermal assessment carried out to? Did it cost more than €150 and determine the thermal conductivity of all elements? 

As already stated, it doesn't apply to changing two doors. There are no grants available for just changing doors and/or windows.




fidelcastro said:


> The "faith" based model is because the building isnt /wasnt surveyed whilst works were being carried out. So just because I have a window installed from Co X with a U value of 0 W/m2/K doesnt imply that NO heat is being lost through the windows by incorrect building methods / thermal bridges and air gaps due to poor on-site building methods and superstitions.


OK, you don't have extremely detailed information about the thermal performance of each of the hundreds of elements and junctions in your house that would allow for a super accurate model of it's heating needs to be created. You're in exactly the same boat as almost all homeowners in the country. 

The goal of the BER assessment was never to produce such a model, it's simply a low cost means of putting a ballpark figure on thermal performance. A ballpark is all that is required for the purposes of prioritising these grants, anything else would be expensive overkill that we would end up paying for. But again, feel free to suggest an alternative method that would produce a highly accurate result that costs less than €150.

But of course, the entries to the DEAP software are not based on 'faith', they are based on observations and knowledge of the performance of building methods and components over the decades. 



fidelcastro said:


> We may have lower thermal space heating than EU average, but that isnt anything to write home about


You said our regs weren't up to European standard, but now you're saying having lower heating requirements than average is nothing to write home about? 



fidelcastro said:


> What standard allowed for pyrite.?. Precisely, no to little building inspections are carried out during the cival works builds, so the house standard is "faith" based .


That's no a standard though, again, what standards are you talking about?



fidelcastro said:


> And so, yes it is expensive. If we had ever bothered with enforcing and coming up with decent regulations, then this vast expense of energy upgrades would not be required in the first place and we would as a country saved a kings ransom with regard to fuel costs. We've



So what countries in Europe got this right and had building standards that delivered A rated homes under today's standards 40+ years ago when the vast majority of our housing stock (and the prime targets for the deep retrofit grants) were built? 

I wonder if we are so far behind why do so many other European countries have similar programs for renovations and retrofits.


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## fidelcastro (28 Feb 2022)

Leo, I respectfully beg to disagree, I dont have the time or inclination to further this.

Over and out.


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## Leo (1 Mar 2022)

fidelcastro said:


> Leo, I respectfully beg to disagree, I dont have the time or inclination to further this.


Fair enough, but if you want to make claims such as our regs being far behind Europe, I'd have thought you'd at least be able to give some examples if you were indeed familiar with them.


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## David_Dublin (1 Mar 2022)

Anyone care to recommend a BER assesor in the Dublin area - I'd like to look at getting to B2, so need to factor what needs to be done into refurb/extension scope of work before I go out to tender.


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## Leo (1 Mar 2022)

David_Dublin said:


> Anyone care to recommend a BER assesor in the Dublin area


I've used Patrick Lennon in the past.


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## David_Dublin (2 Mar 2022)

I talked to Pat, and to SEAI. From what I can gather:

To qualify to be in the OSS scheme, Customer needs a BER Tech Advisor/Surveyor to do an assessment: the As-Is evaluation, and the measures required to get to B2.
The Tech Surveyor would be engaged as part of signing up to the OSS scheme, i.e. the OSS entity provides this.
The OSS is a single entity (company) who in turn would assign a Contractor to do the works.
I wonder how OSS will work in relation to the deep retrofit being part of a wider extension/upgrade programme. Generally a bigger job would go out to Tender with a number of Contractors selected by the Customer/Architect, and the Customer/Architect would review Tender responses. 

Within the OSS model, the OSS does the Tendering. Hopefully we don't see the OSS limiting who the Customer can potentially consider as Contractor. As in, if the Customer has 2 or 3 well regarded SEAI registered Contractors they would like to do their extension, the OSS would be willing to consider them.


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## Leo (2 Mar 2022)

David_Dublin said:


> I wonder how OSS will work in relation to the deep retrofit being part of a wider extension/upgrade programme. Generally a bigger job would go out to Tender with a number of Contractors selected by the Customer/Architect, and the Customer/Architect would review Tender responses.


I haven't seen any detail on that at all. I've read through some of the OSS contractor guides and there has been no suggestion that the OSS scheme would apply where extension works are involved. It will be interesting to see how it rolls out, but with the requirement to submit detailed information on the building pre and post work, and other criteria such as insulation measures having to apply to 100% of the element, extensions could disqualify. What you might see is people availing of the deep retrofit and then following up with an extension afterwards, even though that would be somewhat wasteful. 



David_Dublin said:


> Within the OSS model, the OSS does the Tendering. Hopefully we don't see the OSS limiting who the Customer can potentially consider as Contractor. As in, if the Customer has 2 or 3 well regarded SEAI registered Contractors they would like to do their extension, the OSS would be willing to consider them.


A lot of the larger contractors will themselves become One Stop Shop agencies, and so they won't need to tender all work. The SEAI have put a call out for them to apply. These OSSs will be permitted to use outside contractors, so long as they meet all the requirements. 

I'd imagine that any competent full-service contractor who is not going to apply to become a OSS themselves will ensure they are aligned with the OSSs in their area to ensure they get some of this work. Likewise, with a likely shortage of qualified trades for some time, it will be in the interest of the OSSs to have access to as many qualified tradespeople as they can because they'll only get paid for work completed.


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## David_Dublin (2 Mar 2022)

Leo said:


> I haven't seen any detail on that at all. I've read through some of the OSS contractor guides and there has been no suggestion that the OSS scheme would apply where extension works are involved. It will be interesting to see how it rolls out, but with the requirement to submit detailed information on the building pre and post work, and other criteria such as insulation measures having to apply to 100% of the element, extensions could disqualify. What you might see is people availing of the deep retrofit and then following up with an extension afterwards, even though that would be somewhat wasteful.


It would be quite limiting to exclude works where extensions are included, I'd have thought there must be a significant proportion of people taking the opportunity to deep retrofit as part of other work. The OSS would only cover the existing house, i.e. the new extension would need to be built in accordance with current regs so would not be applicable.
And if, as you say, full service contractors will be on OSS then maybe it would be a moot point - could get both done by the same contractor. Can't see why they might exclude it.


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## Leo (2 Mar 2022)

David_Dublin said:


> Can't see why they might exclude it.


I suspect it's being formulated to prioritise people who are not considering getting anything done. Even the 12 month limit to complete all works from the grant date would add risk with the difficulties in lining up retrofit work and extension in the current market.

Again, just my suspicion, but I think they believe that having the B2 requirement for those adding significant extensions will force owners to upgrade anyway, availing of the individual grants to do so. That means that more of the limited retrofit funds go to those who couldn't afford it otherwise.


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## odyssey06 (12 Apr 2022)

What are the consequences if someone did extensive upgrades on a property, and got it from I dunno an F to a C1 or B3 but not B2 level.
They won't get the refurb grant, but otherwise?


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## Leo (12 Apr 2022)

odyssey06 said:


> They won't get the refurb grant, but otherwise?


Building will not be planning compliant and they could face enforcement proceedings.


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