# Bag of Chips. Price increase.



## Bronco Lane (2 Jan 2019)

I see my local chipper has increased the price of a bag to an even €3 from €2.80. A bit higher than the recent VAT price increase?    Not even a few extra thrown in on top.


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## Leo (2 Jan 2019)

Potato harvests are down after a poor year across Europe, but particularly in Ireland. Prices overall are twice that of last year, worst affected are the prices for peeled potatoes which are now ~5 times what they were last year as supplies can't as easily be replaced with European sources.


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## Cervelo (2 Jan 2019)

Don't forget the minimum wage went up as well


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## dub_nerd (2 Jan 2019)

We're always being told what to do when the chips are down. Nothing about when the chips are up.


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## newtothis (2 Jan 2019)

Bronco Lane said:


> I see my local chipper has increased the price of a bag to an even €3 from €2.80. A bit higher than the recent VAT price increase?    Not even a few extra thrown in on top.



When was the last time they increased the price? My guess is it was more than a year ago. 

The VAT increase taken by itself would bring the price to €2.92. No doubt other costs have risen too in the last year (just out of interest, did you get a pay rise this year, or if not were you hoping for one?). Businesses do not in general like rising prices, for the very reason you've highlighted: customers don't like it. They will try and minimise the amount of times they do this unpopular move. Given they more or less have to pass on the VAT increase, many will roll in their own increase at the same time. So of this particular increase, the business gets 8c and the government takes 12c.

A lot of people have complained and questioned whether prices fell when the rate was reduced. If you recall, much was made of this at the time and many places reduced prices more than the VAT rate decrease in an effort to retain business at the height of the recession. With the possible exception of hotels in Dublin, the sectors affected by this are under increasing pressure due to rising costs and increased competition. Already there have been some casualties: expect to see more in the coming months.

Disclosure: as you may have guessed, I run a business that is affacted by this VAT rate.


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## noproblem (2 Jan 2019)

I understand staff costs, overheads, ins, heating, rent, rates, etc, etc, but €3 for a bag of chips is absolutely ridiculous. Same as €3 for a cup of tea or coffee is extortion. Some day soon the big bubble will burst and it won't take long for the "potato in a bag" to behave properly with regard to its transfer fee to my belly.


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## Gordon Gekko (2 Jan 2019)

What is a fair price though?

€2? €1? €2.50?

Everything becomes more expensive to provide when you have to pay staff, taxes, utilities, rent, etc.

If €3 for a bag of chips doesn’t feel right, fry them yourself!


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## newtothis (2 Jan 2019)

noproblem said:


> I understand staff costs, overheads, ins, heating, rent, rates, etc, etc, but €3 for a bag of chips is absolutely ridiculous. Same as €3 for a cup of tea or coffee is extortion.



On what basis is it extortion? No doubt you're referring to all the Prosches and Ferraris that owners of chip shops round the country swan around in, the fruits of the overblown profits from their poor gouged customers. Do you have even the slightest idea of what it takes to run a business like that, or the economics that underpin it?


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## noproblem (2 Jan 2019)

newtothis said:


> On what basis is it extortion? No doubt you're referring to all the Prosches and Ferraris that owners of chip shops round the country swan around in, the fruits of the overblown profits from their poor gouged customers. Do you have even the slightest idea of what it takes to run a business like that, or the economics that underpin it?



Answering your last question first and, Yes, I do have more than the slightest idea of what it takes to run a business and have run some very successfully and others have lost me quite sizeable amounts of money. As for your first question? Does one really have to explain tea/coffee and a fried potato @ €3 being extortion? If so!!!!!
By the way, if you had read my post you would have seen my understanding of costs already mentioned. Do also understand that it is my opinion, pretty much the same as your own one (opinion) and Mr Gekko's one (opinion) who suggested I fry them myself.  He'll be delighted to know I do just that and I would determine it costs me aprox 15c to make quite a large bag which includes all staff costs, utensils, property tax, salt/vinegar, condiments, raw materials, production costs, seating,  and whatever else you might care to mention. Oh, a cuppa might cost you the equivalent of less than 1c to put in front of a customer before staff costs are taken into account. Now, do your sums and determine if that's extortion or not? Thank you and good night, going to have a cuppa


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## newtothis (3 Jan 2019)

noproblem said:


> I would determine it costs me aprox 15c to make quite a large bag which includes all staff costs, utensils, property tax, salt/vinegar, condiments, raw materials, production costs, seating, and whatever else you might care to mention.



I think you need to (a) go into the chip shop business for a few months, enabling you to retire to the Bahamas at the end of it, or (b) get a new calculator, as your current one seems somewhat dodgy.

More seriously, you've just demonstrated you really don't have the first idea of the costs involved.

How much do you think it costs just to open the doors of a chip shop (or cafe for that matter, which is closer to my own business) each day, before you sell a single thing? Write that number down. Now write down how many bags of chips or cups of coffee it takes to sell at €2.64 a pop net (€3.00 selling price, including VAT) to cover that, not forgetting to deduct all the direct costs (potatoes, S+V, bags, credit/debit card fees etc.) for each bag sold (and yes, the bag itself does cost money). Divide the first by the second number. If you're accurate with your numbers, it will be rather a large number of customers you'll need to attract just to break even. If it’s not, maybe you could share the numbers you’ve used: I could do with a good laugh.

Just for the record, in the coffee business with which I'm more familiar (and you also mentioned), you are doing very well if you come out with a 5% net profit. If you don't believe me, check out the reported profits of the larger public companies in the sector. Margins may well be higher in the chip shop world (though Harry Ramsden's wouldn't agree), but there's no way I'd put up with the sacrifices needed to build that kind of business. If they are rolling in it, good luck to them, though I don't see any evidence of it.


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## noproblem (3 Jan 2019)

Ha ha, been in the business and many others and not on the fringes like yourself, know all about it and the vast sums that can be made,  All about quantity, get them in and get them out although to the couch potato that might seem ungentlemanly in the business world. Look, i've actually given you a very basic outline of a few items and if that doesn't fit in with your take on things then fine. No, I don't drive a Bentley, a Porche or Ferrari, that's not to say I couldn't. Next time you have a bag of chips, think of the small potato that's in there and the €3 you've given for it. Oh yeah, the cost, the cost, the cost of putting it into that bag? I forgot that .  We differ, big deal.


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## Bronco Lane (3 Jan 2019)

I forgot to mention that I also purchased a fresh cod with my chips. I was charged €7 for this. Previously it was €6.80. There may have been a shortage of potatoes this year due to weather conditions, maybe it also affected the fishing industry, or maybe it was the 4% VAT increase. Anyhow it was a miserable sized piece of grey coloured fish.

Incidentally are "take aways" treated the same for VAT.   How do coffee shops charge a lower price for take out coffee than a coffee sitting down in the coffee shop, if all costs are the same?


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## vandriver (3 Jan 2019)

'...you are doing very well if you come out with a 5% net profit...'
I was talking to a coffee shop owner about the impending VAT rise.His accountant told him to pass it on or go out of business.
I thought at the time that this was rubbish,but if the net margin is only 5%...


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## Firefly (3 Jan 2019)

noproblem said:


> ..... who suggested I fry them myself.  He'll be delighted to know I do just that and I would determine it costs me aprox 15c to make quite a large bag which includes all _staff costs_, utensils, property tax, salt/vinegar, condiments, raw materials, production costs, seating,  and whatever else you might care to mention.



Hi,

As you made the chips yourself for yourself you didn't have to pay someone. However unless you want to work for nothing and make everything yourself, you will need to hire people.


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## newtothis (3 Jan 2019)

vandriver said:


> '...you are doing very well if you come out with a 5% net profit...'
> I was talking to a coffee shop owner about the impending VAT rise.His accountant told him to pass it on or go out of business.
> I thought at the time that this was rubbish,but if the net margin is only 5%...



Trust me: the near co-incidence of these figures (i.e. VAT increase and expected profit) has not gone unoticed in the industry. The word is also that very few places are actually achieving 5% net profit.


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## newtothis (3 Jan 2019)

noproblem said:


> Ha ha, been in the business and many others and not on the fringes like yourself



What can you mean, "on the fringes"? You know nothing about my business, other than it's been affected by the rate increase and that I've direct knowledge of costs and revenues in the sector.



noproblem said:


> Look, i've actually given you a very basic outline of a few items



Er, no, you haven't. All you've done is claim to break even selling bags of chips (or indeed cups of coffee, presumably) at 15c a go with absolutely no figures to back it up. 




noproblem said:


> if that doesn't fit in with your take on things then fine



My "take on things" is based on actual knowledge of the actual costs on a business, not fantasy ones.



noproblem said:


> Next time you have a bag of chips, think of the small potato that's in there and the €3 you've given for it. Oh yeah, the cost, the cost, the cost of putting it into that bag? I forgot that .



Yes, there is the cost of putting it in the bag. Maybe you expected to be handed a raw potato when you ask for a bag of chips? Better yet, get pointed to one still growing in the ground? It's *all* about the cost of putting the chips into the bag. The reason I mentioned the bag in particular is to highlight you need to consider every little thing in costs (for the record, packaging costs run to about 4% in the business I know, so it's not actually insignificant). I could have mentioned rent, rates, power, equipment financing, staff, PRSI, waste collection, equipment and property maintenance, phone, FOG license (look that one up), cleaning and disposable materials, the list goes on......

When you disclose some of your numbers then I might take you seriously: until then you're just someone spouting off about something they clearly know nothing about.
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## Sunny (3 Jan 2019)

vandriver said:


> '...you are doing very well if you come out with a 5% net profit...'
> I was talking to a coffee shop owner about the impending VAT rise.His accountant told him to pass it on or go out of business.
> I thought at the time that this was rubbish,but if the net margin is only 5%...



The VAT decrease was introduced on a temporary basis. If any business closes simply because of the VAT increase, they should have closed before now before they have been basically operating on a subsidy by the taxpayer and that is not a sustainable business. Any business should simply pass on the increase if they can't absorb the cost in their margins. If customers stop buying cups of coffee because they are paying 13.5% VAT instead of 9% VAT, then there is a bigger problem. The issue is that the 4.5% decrease was never passed on the customer originally. It was used to increase margins (fair enough as a lot of this was probably re-invested in the business). But now businesses need to decide whether to pass it on or absorb it. There was no justification for keeping it at 9% when other sectors are equally as deserving of help and have to pay up to 23%. Tourism and hospitality sector are beginning to sound like farmers........


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## odyssey06 (3 Jan 2019)

Sunny said:


> The VAT decrease was introduced on a temporary basis. If any business closes simply because of the VAT increase, they should have closed before now before they have been basically operating on a subsidy by the taxpayer and that is not a sustainable business. Any business should simply pass on the increase if they can't absorb the cost in their margins. If customers stop buying cups of coffee because they are paying 13.5% VAT instead of 9% VAT, then there is a bigger problem.



Shouldn't the question be whether 13.5% VAT or 9% VAT will bring in more revenue from the sector as a whole (i.e. not just VAT, but also considering rates, wages, profits)? If 13.5% VAT leads to reduced demand and businesses closing, then there will be less money flowing into the state coffers... people may switch to nespresso coffee at home or airfryer chips and put the saved money towards a sun holiday. That's not a rhetorical IF btw.


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## Sunny (3 Jan 2019)

odyssey06 said:


> Shouldn't the question be whether 13.5% VAT or 9% VAT will bring in more revenue from the sector as a whole (i.e. not just VAT, but also considering rates, wages, profits)? If 13.5% VAT leads to reduced demand and businesses closing, then there will be less money flowing into the state coffers... people may switch to nespresso coffee at home or airfryer chips and put the saved money towards a sun holiday. That's not a rhetorical IF btw.




Same argument could be made for every sector in the economy. Why not just abolish VAT altogether? The 9% VAT rate was a temporary measure. It was 13.5% up to 2012 and has now reverted to this rate. There is no evidence to back up the assertion that the reduction of VAT led to increased tax take for the State due to increased demand because of reduced prices. Simply because prices were never reduced. The decrease allowed businesses that might have closed to increase their profit margin and ride out the recession. It was basically State Aid for the sector.  It served it's purpose. There is no justification any more for this though. If people want to discuss VAT rates in general, then fair enough but the hospitality sector has no basis for moaning about this particular increase. Let them make an argument for reducing the rate to 9% based on competitive pressures but as anyone who has holidayed ANYWHERE in Ireland (and not just Dublin) while the VAT has been 9%, the Irish Hospitality Sector has not been competitive with other locations for a very long time. And there are numerous reasons other than VAT for that.


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## newtothis (3 Jan 2019)

Sunny said:


> The issue is that the 4.5% decrease was never passed on the customer originally.


What basis do you have for saying that? I recall when it was introiduced the minister made it clear that the response of the sector would be watched and if it wasn't passed on it would be reversed. Whilst I've no doubt specific examples can be found where it wasn't, in the main it was passed on, and indeed more than passed on in many instances, with the cost of dining out in particular falling considerably with all sorts of special deals being introduced. The stimulus worked: employment grew in one of the few sectors that had the ability to do so across the country, all at a time of significant recession. The question now is whether there will be a net increase in income to the government. This is highly questionable: sales are likely to fall as is employment, both of which will reduce rather than increase tax income (considering all of VAT, PAYE, PRSI and USC).


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## newtothis (3 Jan 2019)

Sunny said:


> But now businesses need to decide whether to pass it on or absorb it.



This is laughable. How do you expect them to absorb it? Write to their landlord and ask for a rent reduction of 5%? Write to their local council and ask for a 5% rate rebate? Their suppliers? What sort of response do you think they'd get to that? The only way they can really reduce anything to absorb it is to is reduce their staff costs. How would you respond to being asked to take a 10% or even 20% pay cut? Or being told, “sorry, you’re now redundant”? Maybe in fantasy land where apparently you can break even selling bags of chips at 15c a go you could use some of your 90+% net margin, but I’m afraid back here in the real world, it’s not an option. As I say laughable: the very people who say “absorb the increase” are probably the very last who would volunteer to take a pay cut or redundancy.


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## Steven Barrett (3 Jan 2019)

Thread of the (albeit short) year. A gripe over the cost of a bag of chips has become a full blow argument


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## Sunny (3 Jan 2019)

newtothis said:


> This is laughable. How do you expect them to absorb it? Write to their landlord and ask for a rent reduction of 5%? Write to their local council and ask for a 5% rate rebate? Their suppliers? What sort of response do you think they'd get to that? The only way they can really reduce anything to absorb it is to is reduce their staff costs. How would you respond to being asked to take a 10% or even 20% pay cut? Or being told, “sorry, you’re now redundant”? Maybe in fantasy land where apparently you can break even selling bags of chips at 15c a go you could use some of your 90+% net margin, but I’m afraid back here in the real world, it’s not an option. As I say laughable: the very people who say “absorb the increase” are probably the very last who would volunteer to take a pay cut or redundancy.



Why are you getting your knickers in a twist? I never commented on the profits of a bag of chips or 90% margins.  I said they can EITHER PASS IT ON or ABSORB it. Some companies are going to absorb the cost. There are many hotels and restaurants that have already said they will. There are others that can't and will pass it on. VAT is only reverting to what it was in 2012 for what was supposed to be a temporary period of time. If restoring the VAT rate leads us to economic disaster like the sector is asking us to believe, then I have real concerns for the fragility of the public finances when it comes to other taxes. I am just back from getting my over priced cup of coffee that has gone up following the VAT. I will probably buy one tomorrow as well. I will more than likely even pay 5.20 that my local is now charging for a pint of Guinness. I will still go for dinner at the weekend where I will just have to suck up the extra 4.50 on my €100 restaurant bill. And I will probably still have a few nights away in overpriced hotels throughout the year. A 4.5% increase doesn't change the spending patterns for the majority of consumers on items like hospitality. A 4.5% decrease didn't lead to a material increase in demand (economic recovery, weak Euro etc etc did more than the VAT rate) and a 4.5% increase won't lead to a material decrease in demand.   

If businesses are operating at margins where a reversion to the normal 13.5% VAT is the difference between survival and failure, then there is an issue around the cost of business but that includes rates, staff costs, water costs, insurance costs, health and safety costs.....Have a discussion around that rather than saying a VAT increase of 4.5% will lead to places closing all over place with thousands of job losses...


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## RETIRED2017 (3 Jan 2019)

newtothis said:


> This is laughable. How do you expect them to absorb it? Write to their landlord and ask for a rent reduction of 5%? Write to their local council and ask for a 5% rate rebate? Their suppliers? What sort of response do you think they'd get to that? The only way they can really reduce anything to absorb it is to is reduce their staff costs. How would you respond to being asked to take a 10% or even 20% pay cut? Or being told, “sorry, you’re now redundant”? Maybe in fantasy land where apparently you can break even selling bags of chips at 15c a go you could use some of your 90+% net margin, but I’m afraid back here in the real world, it’s not an option. As I say laughable: the very people who say “absorb the increase” are probably the very last who would volunteer to take a pay cut or redundancy.


My reading of Sunny Post He/She did not say absorb vat increase They just pointed out Business had two choices absorb it or pass it on ,I would expect when the government increase tax on lets say petrol I will see it passed on at the pumps, same with the price increases from there petrol suppliers, 
My reading in most cases Chippers absorb the increase in there raw material cost up until now because the big players absorb material cost there now need to increase prices to pass on the tax increase so they passed on  the increase in overheads cost at the same time which I think is fair enough,


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## Sunny (3 Jan 2019)

Anyway, I don't have an issue with €3 chips.... It's the €1.80 for the curry sauce that is the real scandal!!


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## Magpie (3 Jan 2019)

noproblem said:


> Ha ha, been in the business and many others and not on the fringes like yourself, know all about it and the vast sums that can be made,  All about quantity, get them in and get them out although to the couch potato that might seem ungentlemanly in the business world. Look, i've actually given you a very basic outline of a few items and if that doesn't fit in with your take on things then fine. No, I don't drive a Bentley, a Porche or Ferrari, that's not to say I couldn't. Next time you have a bag of chips, think of the small potato that's in there and the €3 you've given for it. Oh yeah, the cost, the cost, the cost of putting it into that bag? I forgot that .  We differ, big deal.




Vast sums to be made? Do you think every chipper is on O'Connell St with thousands going in and out of them? Most are in small towns and villages and barely breaking even, chippers are closing too. There's very little profit in them altogether.


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## newtothis (3 Jan 2019)

Sunny said:


> Why are you getting your knickers in a twist? I never commented on the profits of a bag of chips or 90% margins.  I said they can EITHER PASS IT ON or ABSORB it.


 Fair enough, it was a different poster that implied the 90% margins, based on their statement that they could break even at 15c a bag. My response to your suggestion to absorb it was just to ask "how?".


Sunny said:


> If businesses are operating at margins where a reversion to the normal 13.5% VAT is the difference between survival and failure, then there is an issue around the cost of business but that includes rates, staff costs, water costs, insurance costs, health and safety costs.....Have a discussion around that rather than saying a VAT increase of 4.5% will lead to places closing all over place with thousands of job losses...


 Newsflash: yes, most probably are operating at those margins. I've already said several times that 5% is regarded as a normal net profit for the sector, all things being well. Profits from larger public companies in the sector confirm this as normal (e.g. Caffe Nero last year, revenues of £313m, net profit €17.7m). I never said that places would close all over the place with thousands of job losses (of course industry bodies will exagerate); I said it was questionable if the move would actually increase rather than decrease revenue to the government, which is surely the object of the taxation exercise?


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## elcato (3 Jan 2019)

newtothis said:


> with the cost of dining out in particular falling considerably with all sorts of special deals being introduced. The stimulus worked: employment grew in one of the few sectors that had the ability to do so across the country, all at a time of significant recession.


You could say the same about property, any retail, construction etc in the last 5 years. Nothing to do with government stimulus just bring the price in line with demand. The fact the they reduced the vat rate was just a pure fluke.


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## newtothis (3 Jan 2019)

elcato said:


> The fact the they reduced the vat rate was just a pure fluke.



In your opinion. It is unknowable. The rate was reduced to achieve a policy objective (increased employment). The objective was realised. Correlation or causation? Impossible to prove. The rate is going up again, with the objective of increasing revenue. It will be interesting to see if that objective is realised (my guess is it is unlikely, at least to the extent hoped for). Regardless of the outcome, it too will be impossible to prove correlation or causation. Maybe the Minister for Finance should just pluck tax rates from the air in attempting to achieve his policy objectives? Maybe he already does. Who knows? It’s all unknowable……


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## Sunny (3 Jan 2019)

newtothis said:


> In your opinion. It is unknowable. The rate was reduced to achieve a policy objective (increased employment). The objective was realised. Correlation or causation? Impossible to prove. The rate is going up again, with the objective of increasing revenue. It will be interesting to see if that objective is realised (my guess is it is unlikely, at least to the extent hoped for). Regardless of the outcome, it too will be impossible to prove correlation or causation. Maybe the Minister for Finance should just pluck tax rates from the air in attempting to achieve his policy objectives? Maybe he already does. Who knows? It’s all unknowable……



Well that doesn’t make any sense does it? How is he plucking it from thin air? He is simply ending a tax break that was introduced in 2012 and paid for by a levy on private pensions and restoring the rate to what it was in 2012. Not much guess work involved there. The objective is not to increase revenue. It is to stop the cost to the exchequer of the tax break.


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## DB74 (3 Jan 2019)

Sunny said:


> I will more than likely even pay 5.20 that my local is now charging for a pint of Guinness.



VAT on alcohol didn't increase so your local is taking the proverbial if they are claiming that is the reason for an increase in the cost of a pint


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## elacsaplau (3 Jan 2019)

The serious point in all of this is that if you ever bag yourself a bargain in the future, what expression will you be able to use? "Cheap as chips used to be" doesn't really work, does it?


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## RichInSpirit (3 Jan 2019)

My beef with a lot of the chippers is that they are loath to sell you just a bag of chips.
Sometimes you want chips but not anything else with it.
"Do you want anything else?"


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## RETIRED2017 (3 Jan 2019)

RichInSpirit said:


> My beef with a lot of the chippers is that they are loath to sell you just a bag of chips.
> Sometimes you want chips but not anything else with it.
> "Do you want anything else?"


Sounds a bit fishy to me, are you sure you  herring them correctly,


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## odyssey06 (3 Jan 2019)

Whatever happened to small and large bags of chips... I think there's a gap in the market for the return of the small bag for 2 euros...


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## newtothis (3 Jan 2019)

Sunny said:


> Well that doesn’t make any sense does it? How is he plucking it from thin air?


Oh dear, perhaps you should read what I said more carefully? I said *maybe* he should pluck it from the air as an ironic suggestion of what he *should* do, given the implication of what you were saying, i.e. the desired result was completely unconnected to the tax reduction. If they are unconnected, why bother make the change in the first place? Why bother with any other adjustment driven by a desire to change behaviour? My statement that maybe he already does was perhaps taking the ironic suggestion a little far: I wasn't being serious.


Sunny said:


> The objective is not to increase revenue. It is to stop the cost to the exchequer of the tax break.


 In what sense are these two statements not simply different ways of saying the same thing? How is increasing revenue not stopping the cost?


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## newtothis (3 Jan 2019)

RichInSpirit said:


> My beef with a lot of the chippers is that they are loath to sell you just a bag of chips.
> Sometimes you want chips but not anything else with it.
> "Do you want anything else?"



I think perhaps you have a chip on your shoulder . If I was asked that, I'd assume it was just a polite enquiry. Any chippers I go to are happy enough to serve a single.


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## newtothis (3 Jan 2019)

elacsaplau said:


> The serious point in all of this is that if you ever bag yourself a bargain in the future, what expression will you be able to use? "Cheap as chips used to be" doesn't really work, does it?



I'm not sure that's true. Surely it's all relative? Cheap as chips certainly works as a comparator to the cost of the Bentleys the chippers are all swanning around in........


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## RichInSpirit (4 Jan 2019)

Also had a serious run in with the local Mafia over a bag of chips. They tried to swindle me. Charging me for a large chip box while only supplying a small bag of chips and ringing it up on the till as a small bag of chips. Haven't darkened their door since.  This thread is bringing it all back.


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## Bronte (4 Jan 2019)

SBarrett said:


> Thread of the (albeit short) year. A gripe over the cost of a bag of chips has become a full blow argument


Which is why I decided to chip in.

I think €3 for a bag of chips is excellent value for money.  Save on all the work of making them and don't have your house smelling of cooking oil.  Plus you can never make them as good as the industrial friers. And those home ones for frying are a pain to clean..


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## dub_nerd (4 Jan 2019)

Bronte said:


> Save on all the work of making them and don't have your house smelling of cooking oil.  Plus you can never make them as good as the industrial friers.



Have to disagree. Here's two ways to make your own delicious healthier chips.

1) The long way: Rinse, but don't peel, three or four medium potatoes. Place in a microwave steamer pot and microwave for 6 to 8 minutes. They must be firm, not mushed. Slice into chips with a sharp knife. Spray ten to twenty squirts (2 calories each) from a spray bottle of either rape seed or olive oil, or a mixture of both.  (You can do this in a plastic bag and shake them up if you're worried about mess. Olive has a lower burn temp and produces more evenly tanned chips). Spread the chips flat on a silicone mesh and bung 'em in a fan oven for 20-25 minutes at 220 C.

2) The short way: Rinse, but don't peel, your potatoes. Slice into chips, and place in an air fryer. Spray with ten to twenty squirts of rape seed or olive oil and air fry for 35 minutes. Less than five minutes total prep, and then they look after themselves.

I won't pretend these are the same as chipper chips. They're different. And once you get over the difference they're nicer. The first time I saw a bag of chipper chips after a couple of years of making my own, it turned my stomach. Oozing with viscous yellow chipper oil and unbearably greasy. Yech! Make your own healthy chips -- you'll never look back.


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## Bronte (4 Jan 2019)

There is no such thing as a healthy chip.  You're fooling nobody with that. I'm sticking with real chips from the chipper for the princely sum of €3.


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## dub_nerd (4 Jan 2019)

Potatoes are a good source of Vitamin C and are perfectly fine as part of your daily carbohydrate allowance. Measured amounts of spray oil will let you use a tiny fraction of the calories in the axle grease that passes for cooking oil in a chipper. Spend your €3 elsewhere, and save yer innards from becoming like the fatberg in the London sewers.


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## Sunny (4 Jan 2019)

dub_nerd said:


> Potatoes are a good source of Vitamin C and are perfectly fine as part of your daily carbohydrate allowance. Measured amounts of spray oil will let you use a tiny fraction of the calories in the axle grease that passes for cooking oil in a chipper. Spend your €3 elsewhere, and save yer innards from becoming like the fatberg in the London sewers.



Now you just sound like one of those new world hippies! Next you will be telling us to wash it down with organic non-alcoholic beer made from soya beans and kale.......


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## Cervelo (4 Jan 2019)

Don't know about the rest of you, but I'm getting a goo on me for fresh cod and chips for dinner tonight 
Even with the price increases its still the cheapest takeaway compared to Chinese, Indian or Pizza


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## newtothis (4 Jan 2019)

Cervelo said:


> Don't know about the rest of you, but I'm getting a goo on me for fresh cod and chips for dinner tonight
> Even with the price increases its still the cheapest takeaway compared to Chinese, Indian or Pizza



I had a fish and chips last night, and I have to say I agree. Although there's a bit of a question mark over the batter sometimes (it can always be discarded), the other advantage is you know exactly what you're getting: fish and potatoes. You also typically get to see it being made so you can judge the hygiene standards of those preparing it. Not something that can typically be said about other types of take-away……


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## Leper (5 Jan 2019)

The main reason for price increases in Ireland is the rental traders must pay before even serving one customer. Then there's staff to be paid, not to mention purchase of raw material etc.

In the south of Spain a cup of coffee (con leche+ refill), glass of orange juice, glass of water, one savoury tapa, one small doughnut, bowl of nuts costs €1.50. You can get the same cheaper, but God knows how many fingers fingered the nuts.


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## Tintagel (5 Jan 2019)

Leper said:


> but God knows how many fingers fingered the nuts.



I was in Spain recently. You could see the pigeons waiting to descend on to the tables where the bowl of nuts were left. A staff member eventually takes the bowl away after the pigeons had a good feed and pours them back in to the main bowl on the counter for distribution to the next customer.
I never eat the free bowl of anything and even baulk at the basket of bread with my meal.


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## newtothis (5 Jan 2019)

Leper said:


> The main reason for price increases in Ireland is the rental traders must pay before even serving one customer. Then there's staff to be paid, not to mention purchase of raw material etc.
> 
> In the south of Spain a cup of coffee (con leche+ refill), glass of orange juice, glass of water, one savoury tapa, one small doughnut, bowl of nuts costs €1.50. You can get the same cheaper, but God knows how many fingers fingered the nuts.



Rent is only part of it: pretty much all other costs (notably staff and insurance) have gone up too.

Comparators with holiday destinations in Southern Europe really don’t apply, much as the armchair pundits would like them to (“we’re being ripped off I tell you!”). You’ll have noticed that must cafés and restaurants there tend to be family owned and run, probably in premises owned by the family for generations. As a result, no rent and it’s doubtful if all the people involved are even getting the local minimum wage (€4.76/hr in Spain, €3.75/hr in Portugal for example). They are getting most of their supplies from similar businesses within 10kms for where they are. In other words, the economics underpinning them are completely different, with very different pricing as a result.

Speaking of rent, it’s my belief that there is something of a commercial rent bubble happening in Dublin, at least in the retail and hospitality sectors. We’ve been approached twice in the last year by agents for two different companies, each looking for someone to take over the lease on a property which they were vacating due to “business reasons”. Each was looking for a five or six figure sum as a premium for doing this (i.e. “key money”). Now it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to question the logic of paying a premium to someone who has just proved they cannot make a particular location work at the rent they were paying running a very similar business. We passed on both opportunities; one is still on the market months later, one has been changed to a different purpose and I doubt they paid any premium. In other words, real businesses can't sustain the rents and charges being asked for: this will become more and more apparent as more and more 5-year rent reviews will be happening in the next couple of years for places with low rents agreed at the height of the recession. Landlords, who seem to have lost the run of themselves, will no doubt keep looking for large increases until it all comes crashing down again as the businesses that underpin them can't keep up. Just an opinion, of course.....


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## WaterWater (5 Jan 2019)

I see my Tall Cappucino in an Insomnia outlet this morning has increased in price to €3.80. They have also stopped selling their special of a scone or pastry plus any sized coffee at a reduced price since January 1st. I believe that the difference between their Tall and medium sized coffee is just more hot water added? Why I have to pay 45c extra for a dash of hot water makes no sense.
Strolling through Ballsbridge I saw that Roly's were selling theirs at €3.35. Nearby Butlers were selling a medium for €3.35 that included one of their lovely chocolates.
I will still have a coffee occasionally throughout 2019 but I won't be choosing to sit in a place with scuffed walls, sticky/uncleared tables, rather I will be seeking out value.


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## newtothis (5 Jan 2019)

WaterWater said:


> I see my Tall Cappucino in an Insomnia outlet this morning has increased in price to €3.80. They have also stopped selling their special of a scone or pastry plus any sized coffee at a reduced price since January 1st. I believe that the difference between their Tall and medium sized coffee is just more hot water added? Why I have to pay 45c extra for a dash of hot water makes no sense.



It's additional (hot) milk actually, but I take the point. Larger sizes are very much a ploy by the multinational chains (Starbucks, Coasta, Caffe Nero etc.) and the local chains that ape them (Insomnia, Cafe Sol etc.) to increase their margins even more. It's an indicator of an outlet that cares more about their margins than the quality of the product they serve. How anyone can actually drink a pint of coffee (I assume a "vente" from Starbucks is 20oz?), much less pay nearly €5 for one is beyond me. Places that focus on quality of what they serve will usually only have single sizes, generally on the small side. This isn't stingyness, but it's hard to showcase the quality of coffee if its drowned in an ocean of water or milk (or God fobid, highly sweetened syrups).

Can I suggest you try one of the smaller independent places? Typically, the coffee does taste somewhat different (actually having flavour instead of bitterness that demands added sugar), but it's also typically no more expensive. Places serving coffee from Roasted Brown, Full Circle, Badger & Dodo, Ground State (all small local specialist roasters) and others will generally all be good. Examples are the Science Galary on Pearse St., Coffee Angel, Bear Market (Blackrock and in the city centre) which are all good. I know Coffee Angel are now selling Lattes at €3.30, others are similar, so it's not as if there's a price premium. Add to that freshly baked goods (try Camerino on Camden St.) and you can't go wrong. There are places like this throughout the country (there's an excellent roaster in Westport whose name escapes me, for example).

Disclaimer: I've no connection, other than as a farirly frequent retail customer, of any of the places mentioned, other than as a wholesale customer of one of the roasters mentioned.


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## noproblem (5 Jan 2019)

Have to laugh when all of a sudden there's experts in Ireland shlurping coffee/tea and telling us eejits what's good and what's yuc. A bit like the wine experts who wouldn't know the difference between plonk and pink nun. Now, i'm off for my 1c or 2c cuppa and see what my household staff charge me on top of that for serving me. Rodney and Del boy had it spot on with their one word explanation


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## newtothis (5 Jan 2019)

noproblem said:


> Have to laugh when all of a sudden there's experts in Ireland shlurping coffee/tea and telling us eejits what's good and what's yuc.


I wouldn't presume to tell anyone what to drink: all I did was suggest someone try what's on offer if they're not happy with the price/quality they've been paying. If people like to drink coffee by the pint in Starbucks or use instant at home, good luck to them: everyone to their own. I didn't say what I was suggesting was good or better: "somewhat different" was the phrase I used. As I said, everyone to their own. It is completely pointless to compare costs of what you can do at home and with what you have to pay elsewhere; the cost of the coffee part is a small percentage of the cost it takes to provide it in a café (typically around 10%).


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## Monbretia (5 Jan 2019)

My small independent coffee shop which serves very nice coffee has gone from 4.45 for a coffee and scone to 5 euro today   I got a serious fright!  Coffee and scone in my town varies from 4 to 5.50, that's outside the chains as I don't frequent them for no particular reason,  I know the price everywhere as it's my little treat every now and then, for 5.50 I am getting a very nice scenic location, free parking and a read of a paper with loyalty cards too, only reason I pay that much occasionally.


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## newtothis (5 Jan 2019)

Monbretia said:


> My small independent coffee shop which serves very nice coffee has gone from 4.45 for a coffee and scone to 5 euro today   I got a serious fright


 Hopefully, you feel it is still value. Do you happen to know when they last put their prices up? I suspect like a lot of independent places (that are loathe to put up prices, unlike the larger chains which tend to have annual increases) they have rolled in increases due to increased costs that have happened over an extended period with the VAT increase which they had little option other than to pass on. Hence an increase about double what you'd expect from just the VAT increase. If I'm wrong and they're just having a laugh at your expense and you see the owner's new Bentley parked outside in a few months’ time I'd be happy to eat my hat........


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## Monbretia (5 Jan 2019)

Interestingly I would say at the start of 2018 they were about 4.10 as they were the best value as the 4 euro place doesn't have as nice scones.  Then they cut down the size of the scones, that's ok too as I don't want a huge one.  Then they went to 4.35 and a month or so ago they went to 4.45 and then today 5 euro.  I don't feel it is value at that, the scone is not that great so I will move to my next favourite place which has far nicer scones and was 5, wonder what they have increased to?  I may just have to forgo my little treat


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## messyleo (5 Jan 2019)

Like Water Water I took a stroll through the coffee shops in Ballsbridge myself this week to check some prices post VAT change. I used to get coffe regularly but now it is only occasionally so I am a but out of touch price wise. I noticed that a regular 12oz Americano is pretty much €3-3.25 everywhere now if not more. The minimum wage increase couple with the VAT has probably compounded things. I would completely echo the sentiments of trying different places to get value however - MAIA in Ballsbridge do Silverskin coffee which is great versus Starbucks/Butlers imo (the Butlers in Ballsbridge is a nicely furnished cafe however and a nice place to sit). I don't mind paying a premium if it's a nice location / atmosphere, good wifi, clean, maybe even free papers to browse etc. It can still represent value (a subjective term obviously) if you shop around and consider it the price of the "experience" rather than just caffeine in a paper (or reusable!) cup. 

I see Bear market do 15cent off if you bring your own cup, and also do 10% cashback through their app. Good to see some places finding innovative ways to give customers an option to reduce the price, and personally even without any saving I always try and bring my own cup for environmental reasons.


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## newtothis (5 Jan 2019)

gravitygirl said:


> I noticed that a regular 12oz Americano is pretty much €3-3.25 everywhere now if not more.


That's a lot. The average is €2.84 in the places I surveyed earlier in the week, most around the €2.80 mark.


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## Gordon Gekko (6 Jan 2019)

That is a lot for an Americano.

Milk-based coffees, yes, but I would be wary of paying more than €3 for an Americano unless it was in a decent hotel.


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## messyleo (6 Jan 2019)

I always found Insomnia on the cheaper end of coffee, compared to Costa, Starbucks etc. and they are now charging €2.80 for a regular Americano (standard house blend not the special blend they do/did which is more expensive again) so I would expect other chains to be more expensive probably.

ETA: Starbucks small 12oz Americano is now 2.90


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## newtothis (6 Jan 2019)

Even the more specialist places are mostly below €3.00 (e.g. Coffee Angel and Network, both at €2.90) for an Americano, so if you're paying €3-€3.25 it's defintely on the high side.


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## TarfHead (7 Jan 2019)

Colin Harmon of 3FE recently circulated a breakdown of the component costs of a EUR 3.50 cup coffee.  In summary, the profit per cup was shown as 26 cent.  It's on his Twitter account, [at]dublinbarista.

I like a cup of freshly made coffee and choose to pay EUR 2.50 to 3.00 for an Americano.  I also like having money in my bank account so buy less of the above than I was a year ago.  I bring a small cafetiere and bag of ground coffee to work with me.  The cafetiere has paid for itself at this stage, with the savings from not popping out to a coffee shop.  The bag of ground coffee costs less than a fiver and I get at least 5 working days out of it.


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## Monbretia (7 Jan 2019)

I had my coffee today as usual but did not have the scone,  total is just too much!  I'll probably be better off without the calories anyway.  Out of curiosity I looked at the prices of an americano, 2.70 for reg, 3.10 for large.

My cappucino was 3.10 and ironically I got back the wrong change, I got a euro too much.  I handed in a fiver and just put the change in my back pocket, when I took it out at home I noticed it was too much, I feel better now over having been stung for the unexpected recent increase of .50 the other day.


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## noproblem (7 Jan 2019)

Have I Told You Latte That I Love You? #BaristaSongs


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## Grizzly (8 Jan 2019)

Walking past the Bear Market coffee shop in Blackrock yesterday I see that it was packed as usual. I think if people have to spend €3.50+ for a cup of coffee now, they are going to ensure that they get something other than what the big chains are dishing out.


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## Gordon Gekko (8 Jan 2019)

Those Fintech apps where you can invest your change from things like coffees in low-cost ETFs seem like a great idea.

I saw one advertised recently and have heard people discussing them.

e.g. I buy a coffee or a pint and push a button to round it up to (say) €4 or €5 or €10, with the excess invested in cheap Vanguard ETFs.

Seems like a smart counterbalance to the “do you realise you spend €1,500 a year on coffees?”.


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## newirishman (8 Jan 2019)

Grizzly said:


> Walking past the Bear Market coffee shop in Blackrock yesterday I see that it was packed as usual. I think if people have to spend €3.50+ for a cup of coffee now, they are going to ensure that they get something other than what the big chains are dishing out.



Not sure why people believe that the coffee of some random "artisan" coffee shop is somehow superior to what comes from a big chain. You might prefer (or not) a certain type of roast, but making coffee is normally not rocket surgery.
For example, I don't usually buy coffee from insomnia as for me it is too bitter. Some acquaintances prefer that taste. 
I personally like Cafe Nero coffee and would get my coffee there rather than go to Kaph (to use a "artisan" coffee shop example) for my regular fix.


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## Sunny (8 Jan 2019)

newirishman said:


> Not sure why people believe that the coffee of some random "artisan" coffee shop is somehow superior to what comes from a big chain. You might prefer (or not) a certain type of roast, but making coffee is normally not rocket surgery.
> For example, I don't usually buy coffee from insomnia as for me it is too bitter. Some acquaintances prefer that taste.
> I personally like Cafe Nero coffee and would get my coffee there rather than go to Kaph (to use a "artisan" coffee shop example) for my regular fix.


tra
Yeah I agree. I don't like Starbucks or how they operate but their coffee is not worse than the small independent shops. I agree about Café Nero. There is a certain level of misplaced snobbery creeping into coffee just like it has with beers as well.


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## Blackrock1 (8 Jan 2019)

newirishman said:


> Not sure why people believe that the coffee of some random "artisan" coffee shop is somehow superior to what comes from a big chain. You might prefer (or not) a certain type of roast, but making coffee is normally not rocket surgery.
> For example, I don't usually buy coffee from insomnia as for me it is too bitter. Some acquaintances prefer that taste.
> I personally like Cafe Nero coffee and would get my coffee there rather than go to Kaph (to use a "artisan" coffee shop example) for my regular fix.



does it not depend on what you like? i dislike starbucks coffee personally, bear and maia in ballsbridge are my two favourite spots, not because they are artisan, because they taste better to me.


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## noproblem (8 Jan 2019)

The bag of chips has turned into the cup of coffee. How did that happen? Anyway, what you pay for both is, I repeat, pure EXTORTION.


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## newtothis (8 Jan 2019)

Grizzly said:


> Walking past the Bear Market coffee shop in Blackrock yesterday I see that it was packed as usual. I think if people have to spend €3.50+ for a cup of coffee now, they are going to ensure that they get something other than what the big chains are dishing out.



For the record, Bear Market charge €3.40 for a Latte or similar (at least they do on Pembroke St., maybe Blackrock's more expensive?). They are one of the most expensive places at that. I did a survey of 15 different places last week, the average for a standard sized Latte was €3.21. The only places I know charging more than €3.50 are the larger sizes as served by the large chains, though I have heard 3FE are charging more too.


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## Cervelo (8 Jan 2019)

I drink a lot of coffee, every morning I put the coffee machine on and make a pot for the day 
I'll have two 20floz mugs for breakfast and one for lunch and if Mrs Cervelo hasn't drunk the rest I might have another after dinner
I don't buy expensive coffee, I use the Lidl gold for €3.99/500grms and twice a year Lidl will put in on sale for €1.99
For my tastes (black coffee) I think its a good cup of coffee and people who have drank it generally say its a nice cup of coffee

I personally think Starbucks is one of the worst tasting coffees out there, Insomnia is more to my taste and I can't really speak of the independents
Most of the times that I would order coffee in a restaurant I don't finish it for one reason or another usually its down to taste
But there is one place that always serves a great cup of coffee not only here but all over the world and that is McDonalds 
And in America the last two times I was there, its one dollar for any size coffee with a free refill


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## newtothis (8 Jan 2019)

noproblem said:


> The bag of chips has turned into the cup of coffee. How did that happen? Anyway, what you pay for both is, I repeat, pure EXTORTION.



Both cups of coffee and bags of chips were mentioned in the original posts.

It's not extortion: nobody's forcing anyone to pay anything. It may be your opinion it's very expensive, but that's something entirely subjective. 

The evidence is that the price reflects the costs of providing it, unless you believe a typical net margin of 5% or less is excessive.


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## newtothis (8 Jan 2019)

Sunny said:


> Yeah I agree. I don't like Starbucks or how they operate but their coffee is not worse than the small independent shops. I agree about Café Nero. There is a certain level of misplaced snobbery creeping into coffee just like it has with beers as well.


It's all down to taste. I wouldn't presume to say which is "better", but I found that once I'd tried it, I would find it very hard to go back to the likes of Starbucks/Caffe Nero/Insomnia and the like. For anyone who hasn't had a coffee from one of the independents, I'd recommend you at least try a couple. With one or two notable exceptions, they're not that much more expensive, if at all.

I would agree with your comment on misplaced snobbery: some places do themselves no favours in winning new business by their attitude to customers who don’t fit their desired profile. This includes one of the places mentioned elsewhere in this thread: they make you feel like they’re doing you a favour by serving you. A pity, as their coffee is excellent.


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## newtothis (8 Jan 2019)

Cervelo said:


> I personally think Starbucks is one of the worst tasting coffees out there, Insomnia is more to my taste and I can't really speak of the independents


 You should try some: you obviously care about the taste, and I think you'd be pleasantly surprised. I used to think Insomnia great, but after switching I found it incredibly bitter and lacking real taste.


Cervelo said:


> Most of the times that I would order coffee in a restaurant I don't finish it for one reason or another usually its down to taste


 Although it's changing a bit now, I have to say I agree with you. It's strange, as it's usually the last thing you have so tends to distort your overall view of a place; you would think they'd put a bit more effort in.


Cervelo said:


> But there is one place that always serves a great cup of coffee not only here but all over the world and that is McDonalds
> And in America the last two times I was there, its one dollar for any size coffee with a free refill


 They do indeed have surprisingly good coffee compared to their peers. I've heard they put a lot of effort into making it so.


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## Leo (8 Jan 2019)

noproblem said:


> Anyway, what you pay for both is, I repeat, pure EXTORTION.



They are extortion only in exactly the same way every other goods and services are. Or are there categories of goods that you don't consider extortionately priced?


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## TarfHead (8 Jan 2019)

Sunny said:


> I don't like Starbucks or how they operate but their coffee is not worse than the small independent shops.



Yes, and No 

Starbucks are an easy target for many reasons such as their size, pincer tactics, constant upsizing/upselling, asking for your name.  If their coffee was consistently good, I would not care about the other aspects, but they fail that standard.

I tick a lot of boxes when it comes to coffee snobbery, but am often happen to go with what's convenient.  The last time I had a cup in Starbucks, it was literally devoid of taste.  I might as well have being drinking warm water with colouring.


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## Sunny (8 Jan 2019)

TarfHead said:


> Yes, and No
> 
> Starbucks are an easy target for many reasons such as their size, pincer tactics, constant upsizing/upselling, asking for your name.  If their coffee was consistently good, I would not care about the other aspects, but they fail that standard.
> 
> I tick a lot of boxes when it comes to coffee snobbery, but am often happen to go with what's convenient.  The last time I had a cup in Starbucks, it was literally devoid of taste.  I might as well have being drinking warm water with colouring.



I don't like Starbucks. I don't like the layout of their shops. I don't like their food. I don't like the way for they ask for names and the fake American politeness. I don't like how they spring up everywhere. I don't like how they make a mockery of planning laws. I don't even like their coffee much BUT their normal size black coffee (No idea why anyone orders large coffees) is not the muck water that people say it is. Like it or not, you don't become the size of Starbucks selling coffee devoid of taste. You might not like the taste which is fair enough but the amount of people who turn their noses up at the idea of grabbing a coffee from Starbucks or Café Nero instead of one of the independents continues to astound me. It's like when in some bars you order a pint of Heineken rather than a craft beer produced in the mountain region of South East Asia and transported using elephants and canoes....... Seeing the same thing now with Nespresso machines. Now that they mainstream, they are not good enough for many coffee drinkers. Now the coffee beans need to be digested and passed through a monkey before being hand harvested.......


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## Firefly (8 Jan 2019)

TarfHead said:


> I bring a small cafetiere and bag of ground coffee to work with me.  The cafetiere has paid for itself at this stage, with the savings from not popping out to a coffee shop.  The bag of ground coffee costs less than a fiver and I get at least 5 working days out of it.



Same here. Lavazza is my poison of choice - a fiver in Tesco but sometimes they reduce it to 3.50 and I fill the basket! 

Using a cafetiere at the moment also as the seal finally went on my Aeropress after at least 1,000 cups.


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## Steven Barrett (8 Jan 2019)

Monbretia said:


> My cappucino was 3.10 and ironically I got back the wrong change, I got a euro too much.  I handed in a fiver and just put the change in my back pocket, when I took it out at home I noticed it was too much, I feel better now over having been stung for the unexpected recent increase of .50 the other day.



Would you really deprive yourself of your little treat over 50c? It's really not that much. And given the minimum wage went up 25c an hour (which would apply to most staff in a cafe) and VAT went up too, these are really increases in running costs that are being passed on to customers.


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## odyssey06 (8 Jan 2019)

Since we got Nespresso machine with milk frother, our purchases of coffees out and about have dropped about 75% I'd say. 
There's even a Nespresso machine in work here. A lot of the supermarket pods are plastic, and machines can have trouble puncturing them. I find the l'Or capsules don't have this issue and make a nice cup.
So it's only if we're looking for a coffee 'stop' we'd pay for a coffee out.


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## TarfHead (8 Jan 2019)

Sunny said:


> .. Now the coffee beans need to be digested and passed through a monkey before being hand harvested.......



It depends on the genus of monkey 

I have a clear memory of the first time I had a Starbucks coffee.  From the 'Soup Nazi'-like engagement with the barista, to the taste and the after-taste, it's a memory I hope will stay with me a long time.  Suffice is to say every subsequent encounter has failed to live up to that first one.


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## newtothis (8 Jan 2019)

Sunny said:


> I don't like Starbucks. I don't like the layout of their shops. I don't like their food. I don't like the way for they ask for names and the fake American politeness. I don't like how they spring up everywhere. I don't like how they make a mockery of planning laws. I don't even like their coffee much.......


 That's a bit unclear - go on, tell us what you REALLY think of them!


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## Monbretia (8 Jan 2019)

SBarrett said:


> Would you really deprive yourself of your little treat over 50c? It's really not that much. And given the minimum wage went up 25c an hour (which would apply to most staff in a cafe) and VAT went up too, these are really increases in running costs that are being passed on to customers.



I would!  I can make nicer ones myself anyway but trouble is I'll eat more than one 

50c is not that much for a one off but it mounts up if you were to tot it up over the year, the old spending diary and all that jazz


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## Jazz01 (8 Jan 2019)

Monbretia said:


> the old spending diary and all that jazz



What ??  You talking to me??


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## noproblem (8 Jan 2019)

newtothis said:


> Both cups of coffee and bags of chips were mentioned in the original posts.
> 
> It's not extortion: nobody's forcing anyone to pay anything. It may be your opinion it's very expensive, but that's something entirely subjective.
> 
> The evidence is that the price reflects the costs of providing it, unless you believe a typical net margin of 5% or less is excessive.



If the net margin comes in at 5% i'd suggest they find another way to make a living. I'd be more inclined to believe coffee shops and the like should be working off a gross margin of between 70/75% and take down their costs from that figure. A lot of the problems with people going into business is their belief they have to open a snazzy place, expensive furniture, fancy cups and cutlery, etc, and their last thoughts go into the actual product. A lot of people in small business's are nice lads and girls but as far as running a business is concerned they haven't a clue. Don't bother coming back to me telling me I don't have a clue, that's just a knee jerk reaction from someone who just does not get it. If you're telling me that a coffee shop owner is working off a net margin of 5% and at the end of the day, providing he doesn't have accidents and the like, all he takes home from every €1000.00 is €50, then he doesn't need me or anyone else to tell him he's wasting his time. There's a lot of places that would do well to turn that over in a few days, anything less is working for nothing but they still class themselves as business people??????????


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## Steven Barrett (8 Jan 2019)

Sunny said:


> tra
> Yeah I agree. I don't like Starbucks or how they operate but their coffee is not worse than the small independent shops. I agree about Café Nero. There is a certain level of misplaced snobbery creeping into coffee just like it has with beers as well.



Starbucks are constantly beaten on their growth model of basically being all over the place. Are they unlike any other chain in the US in that regard? 
As an employer, they look after their staff pretty well, giving their employees lots of opportunities to progress and giving ALL employees health insurance. 


Steven
www.bluewaterfp.ie


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## Purple (8 Jan 2019)

Firefly said:


> Same here. Lavazza is my poison of choice - a fiver in Tesco but sometimes they reduce it to 3.50 and I fill the basket!


Same here! I have one of those little aluminium hob top coffee perculators that cost a tenner. I like it better and prefer the coffee I get from it to the big expensive machine I used to use.  

I don't like the whole brand pretentiousness that goes with Nespresso. When they sell their capsules in Tesco and Dunnes I might buy one of their machines. 

I don't like Starbucks for the same reason I don't like Nespresso, "Proudly serving Starbucks Coffee"... give me a break. It's just coffee. I don't see much difference between their offering and McDonalds Cafe coffee.


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## Purple (8 Jan 2019)

noproblem said:


> If the net margin comes in at 5% i'd suggest they find another way to make a living. I'd be more inclined to believe coffee shops and the like should be working off a gross margin of between 70/75% and take down their costs from that figure. A lot of the problems with people going into business is their belief they have to open a snazzy place, expensive furniture, fancy cups and cutlery, etc, and their last thoughts go into the actual product. A lot of people in small business's are nice lads and girls but as far as running a business is concerned they haven't a clue. Don't bother coming back to me telling me I don't have a clue, that's just a knee jerk reaction from someone who just does not get it. If you're telling me that a coffee shop owner is working off a net margin of 5% and at the end of the day, providing he doesn't have accidents and the like, all he takes home from every €1000.00 is €50, then he doesn't need me or anyone else to tell him he's wasting his time. There's a lot of places that would do well to turn that over in a few days, anything less is working for nothing but they still class themselves as business people??????????


If it's aa net margin of 5% after you pay yourself that just means you have a good accountant.


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## Firefly (8 Jan 2019)

Purple said:


> I don't like the whole brand pretentiousness that goes with Nespresso. When they sell their capsules in Tesco and Dunnes I might buy one of their machines.


Maybe it was the machine I had, but I always found Nespresso coffee just bland and watery.


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## Sunny (8 Jan 2019)

SBarrett said:


> Starbucks are constantly beaten on their growth model of basically being all over the place. Are they unlike any other chain in the US in that regard?
> As an employer, they look after their staff pretty well, giving their employees lots of opportunities to progress and giving ALL employees health insurance.
> 
> 
> ...



I am sure they are a good employer in the States. I have more of a problem with the Starbucks model in Ireland. I don't like the way they have set up numerous stores without planning permission and then just go 'Oh well' An independent coffee shop wouldn't get away with it. I don't like the way they cannibalise streets and shopping centres by setting up outlets at each end. And because they are owned by the same franchise company, they are not worried about damaging the business. They just want to crowd out the competition in the middle. Which is fine but I just don't like it.


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## Jimmy Dee (8 Jan 2019)

FYI
Seashell of Lisson Grove, (not a bad option and comparison):
A regular bag of chips is £2.20 (large is £2.90)
A regular cod is £7.60


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## Cervelo (8 Jan 2019)

Jimmy Dee said:


> FYI
> Seashell of Lisson Grove, (not a bad option and comparison):
> A regular bag of chips is £2.20 (large is £2.90)
> A regular cod is £7.60



A bit far for me to travel to, they'd be a bit on the cold side by the time I got home


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## Jimmy Dee (8 Jan 2019)

No probs, just get in your roller and you will get there in no time at all


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## Jazz01 (8 Jan 2019)

Geezzz all - I've having cravings for "chipper chips" followed by a mug of coffee... not a good time to be reading these posts ... stomach is talking to me


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## newtothis (8 Jan 2019)

noproblem said:


> If the net margin comes in at 5% i'd suggest they find another way to make a living


 I’m fine, thanks. What do you think it should be?





noproblem said:


> I'd be more inclined to believe coffee shops and the like should be working off a gross margin of between 70/75% and take down their costs from that figure.


 For coffee, that’s about right for a gross margin, though for other items (e.g. bought in food or cold drinks for resale) it would be much lower. The problem is the fixed costs are high and you have to sell a lot of what is at the end of the day a relatively low-value product to cover them. That, and/or charge a reasonable price, which currently works out at around €2.50 to €3.50 for a cup of coffee. 





noproblem said:


> A lot of the problems with people going into business is their belief they have to open a snazzy place, expensive furniture, fancy cups and cutlery, etc, and their last thoughts go into the actual product


 Have you been to any independent cafés lately? Most are pretty basic in terms of décor and fit-out. Partly this is because of a design aesthetic that calls for a stripped-out industrial look (no plaster on the walls never mind paint, concrete floors etc.), but partly it’s because they can’t afford or don’t want to spend money on “snazzy places” and would rather focus on the actual product.





noproblem said:


> A lot of people in small business's are nice lads and girls but as far as running a business is concerned they haven't a clue.


 Thanks! I'll try not to take that personally. I’ve no doubt some are like that, but a bit harsh to write off an entire industry, no? For the record, I’ve owned and run several businesses across a couple of industries (technology and hospitality) and have found that whilst the industries are very different in all sorts of ways, there’s a mix of competencies in both. One thing I do know: because of the structural costs, it is very hard to achieve high net margins in the coffee business. 





noproblem said:


> Don't bother coming back to me telling me I don't have a clue, that's just a knee jerk reaction from someone who just does not get it.


 I wouldn’t say you don’t have a clue (a bit harsh), but I think it’s likely you are making a lot of assumptions that are not valid. 





noproblem said:


> If you're telling me that a coffee shop owner is working off a net margin of 5% and at the end of the day, providing he doesn't have accidents and the like, all he takes home from every €1000.00 is €50, then he doesn't need me or anyone else to tell him he's wasting his time.


 But that’s exactly my point: a 5% return on a business investment is not a good one, hence it’s not a good industry to enter if you think there are riches to be made, despite what you think. It depends on what you mean by “all he takes home” as well; if the owner is working in the business as well as investing in it their wages are a cost item. I think it highly likely that this is how most owner/manages cafés are run: essentially, the owners invest in them to give themselves a job in one. If it really was such a (potentially) lucrative business as you seem to believe it is, there would be a lot more businesses in it that would scale and exit, whether by going public or trade-sale. The fact that this is such a rarity in the industry is an indicator that your assumptions are incorrect.


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## SlurrySlump (28 Mar 2022)

I paid €3.40 for a bag over the weekend.....


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## Cervelo (28 Mar 2022)

Last chipper I had was the 4th of march 
Chips €3.50
Spice Burger €3.20 (Yum Yum )
2 Sausages €2.60
Topped off with two fried eggs when I got home
I was a little stuffed by the end but it was worth it as I hadn't had a chipper since last October


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## Eithneangela (28 Mar 2022)

€3.75 in Courtown yesterday


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## deanpark (28 Mar 2022)

TarfHead said:


> It depends on the genus of monkey
> 
> I have a clear memory of the first time I had a Starbucks coffee.  From the 'Soup Nazi'-like engagement with the barista, to the taste and the after-taste, it's a memory I hope will stay with me a long time.  Suffice is to say every subsequent encounter has failed to live up to that first one.


Did you ask for soup in Starbucks - no wonder the barista regarded you as a bit of an inconvenience. Now some smart alec is going to say they''ve served soup in Starbucks for years. I haven't set foot in one for yonks - the thought of paying €3-4 euro for a coffee and 2-3 quid for a pastry doesn't sit well with a person like me reared in the 70s and 80s.


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## peemac (28 Mar 2022)

deanpark said:


> Did you ask for soup in Starbucks - no wonder the barista regarded you as a bit of an inconvenience. Now some smart alec is going to say they''ve served soup in Starbucks for years. I haven't set foot in one for yonks - the thought of paying €3-4 euro for a coffee and 2-3 quid for a pastry doesn't sit well with a person like me reared in the 70s and 80s.


If you are ever in Cashel, walk past the restored Cashel Palace hotel, do not enter, do not look at the menu. 

Coffee & scones €15 per person.

But it is an utterly unbelievable restoration job by Susan Magnier (yes, THE Magniers) and I did hear from someone I know that the €50 afternoon tea is worth every cent.


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## Purple (29 Mar 2022)

SlurrySlump said:


> I paid €3.40 for a bag over the weekend.....


I have fish and chips about once a month. I've no idea what it costs. If I had to guess I'd say somewhere between €3.50 and €5.00 for a bag of chips and around €6-€7 for the fish. 

I do the shopping every week. I've no idea what milk costs. I just know that the overall spend is around €130 (after the Dunnes Vouchers).

The nice thing about takeaway food, restaurants, café coffee etc is that there is absolutely no need to buy it if you can't afford it. I didn't have takeaway food for about 3 years, nor did my kids, because I couldn't afford it. Easy.


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## Cervelo (30 Mar 2022)

peemac said:


> If you are ever in Cashel, walk past the restored Cashel Palace hotel, do not enter, do not look at the menu.
> 
> Coffee & scones €15 per person.
> 
> But it is an utterly unbelievable restoration job by Susan Magnier (yes, THE Magniers) and I did hear from someone I know that the €50 afternoon tea is worth every cent.


You can just picture the ad!!

Two Coffee & Scones ~ €30
Two Afternoon Teas ~ €100
Real conversation with your BFF in beautiful surroundings ~ Priceless
There are somethings money can't buy....


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## Leper (30 Mar 2022)

Why lash out silly cash for a few chips (probably imported from Cyprus or somewhere). Mrs Lep on her monthly Book Club and Wine tasting night usually serves up some chips along with eatables like a home-made burger or deep fried cod fillet and doesn't forget the mushy peas. She supplies enough wine for all too and not that €7.29 minimum price stuff either. Even the vinegar is decent along with sea salt.

Just get the right spuds and cut them with a sharp knife in equal size.


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## odyssey06 (30 Mar 2022)

Leper said:


> Why lash out silly cash for a few chips (probably imported from Cyprus or somewhere). Mrs Lep on her monthly Book Club and Wine tasting night usually serves up some chips along with eatables like a home-made burger or deep fried cod fillet and doesn't forget the mushy peas. She supplies enough wine for all too and not that €7.29 minimum price stuff either. Even the vinegar is decent along with sea salt.
> 
> Just get the right spuds and cut them with a sharp knife in equal size.


Yes, but sometimes time is money and the fast food is chosen because it is fast. Not going to break the bank as long as it is the exception rather than the rule.


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## Firefly (30 Mar 2022)

Leper said:


> Why lash out silly cash for a few chips (probably imported from Cyprus or somewhere). Mrs Lep on her monthly Book Club and Wine tasting night usually serves up some chips along with eatables like a home-made burger or deep fried cod fillet and doesn't forget the mushy peas. She supplies enough wine for all too and not that €7.29 minimum price stuff either. Even the vinegar is decent along with sea salt.
> 
> Just get the right spuds and cut them with a sharp knife in equal size.


Happy to join the Book Club Lep


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## Firefly (30 Mar 2022)

Had really lovely fish & chips recently at O'Reilly's and Dinos (Kinsale). The chips at both IIRC were about 4 euro but were excellent.  Don't mind paying that once in a while to be honest.


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