# Central bank review  of tracker mortgages 2015



## rodger (23 Dec 2015)

Who will these independent third parties be?

Will they be the judges of who gets what?

If so what makes them qualified to decide?

If they are employed by the banks then where will their loyalties lie?

Will the central bank really defer to them to decide?

Will each bank need to employ a different company to ensure confidentiality?

The news yesterday is that the central bank will oversee the redress! But what about the decision making?

Also today
http://www.irishtimes.com/business/...-a-review-of-the-banks-by-the-banks-1.2475568

Suggests 200 complaints are still live with fsob?

Only 200?

I have heard there are thousands of customers affected so why only 200 cases live?

What is the role of fsob in the process?


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## MorgVar (31 Dec 2015)

I agree with all your comment above Rodger.

I  contacted Central Bank last month seeking clarification on review, process, timescale etc. Very disappointing reply following 2 emails with no detail and basically saying that process was not agreed or available and watch their Website for updates? Strange considering they have established and announced this review?

I also called fsob but no info or clarity there either?

I am aggreived by decision of Ombudsman earlier this year and want to have my case reviewed in this process. I plan to now submit to Ulster bank to ask them to include and advise me of process etc

Would welcome any comments or advice from many  others affected! Last chance of any redress on this issue I presume.


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## todo (31 Dec 2015)

MorgVar I'm in the same situation as you, and I have done the same things you have. I don't believe anything will come from these reviews, they are not going to find against themselves. Our best hope is that interest rates can be brought into line with European rates through political pressure.

There is a real lack of transparency and clarity about what, when and how long this is all going to take.


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## rodger (3 Jan 2016)

I am surprised by the lack of contributions to this thread.

Maybe people genuinely don't know what's going to happen.

I mean if there is an open ombudsman case, is that on hold until the review is complete?

It would make sense for ombudsman to wait but can anyone confirm?

It means waiting until probably September?


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## Ravima (5 Jan 2016)

can a borrower contact CB with their history of loan, or is it the lending bank who simply review paperwork, tick box to confirm and then say all is in order?


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## rodger (12 Jan 2016)

Will the banks be even more stingy with returning trackers now the review has been ordered?


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## Onceagain (14 Jan 2016)

Was thinking the same Rodger, united they will stand. Things have gone very quiet, how long will we have to wait??


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## rodger (15 Jan 2016)

Articles about Aib in today's Irish times

They want to return ownership.

No mention of the tracker issue hanging over the bank.

The risk of legal action and what private investors would think of that.


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## Black_Adder (20 Jan 2016)

AIB will not want to mislead markets and it will be worth reviewing such documents when they become available. Sometimes there are revelations in Investor documents that are really candid.


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## rodger (20 Jan 2016)

Is there any update on this legal action?

http://m.independent.ie/business/pe...ustomers-may-have-lost-trackers-31472656.html


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## todo (20 Jan 2016)

rodger said:


> Is there any update on this legal action?
> 
> http://m.independent.ie/business/pe...ustomers-may-have-lost-trackers-31472656.html



Is there any more information available on this case.

Is there anything at all we can do to help these people.

Banks have gotten away for far too long with doing whatever they like. AIB will try every trick in the book to wiggle out of this.


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## rodger (20 Jan 2016)

More details here

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/...-offering-tracker-redress-says-imho-1.2335473


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## Black_Adder (20 Jan 2016)

That appears to be a September 2015 article overtaken by the Central Bank announcement on 22 December 2015.


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## rodger (24 Jan 2016)

Today's Sunday Times

[broken link removed]

Aib under pressure to sort out tracker potential liability before returning to stock market.

Bernard Byrne says: banks have to take an open attitude to customer problems not resort to "legals" or "clever terms and conditions".

Question Bernard: why didn't you do that?
Who is he trying to cod?

He also says it could take up to 5 years to fully sort out (!)


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## todo (24 Jan 2016)

"Allied Irish Banks has assembled a team of up to 300 employees"

Very unfair, an independent team should be assembled to check if consumers have been tricked by the bank.

"Bernard Byrne says: banks have to take an open attitude to customer problems not resort to "legals" or "clever terms and conditions"."

Finally at last one of the banks admits to their clever tricks, how long will it take for the others to own up, if at all.


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## Black_Adder (24 Jan 2016)

This is about the Institutional Investors and keeping them happy.


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## rodger (24 Jan 2016)

Highly embarrassing for the incumbent government trying to sell off assets with a tracker time bomb under Aib

I mean what finance minister can stand for reelection such an ongoing mess.

Fianna Fail Michael McGrath should be making more of this.


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## Black_Adder (25 Jan 2016)

Rodger I don't get any sense that AIB think there is an issue from that article.
I think they think that the Institutional Investors may pick up on it. Now institutional investors aren't too concerned about Customer as opposed to how it affects the earnings capability.

Also 'todo' there was no admission in that.
Irish consumers and taxpayers simply don't do revolution.


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## todo (25 Jan 2016)

I think there is an admission of sorts, not the open one that should be given. But what I think he is saying in that statement is that banks have treated their customers very badly and its time that they honoured the original essence of the agreement rather then relying on very biased terms and conditions to wiggle their way out of their commitments to the customer.

Of course paper never refused ink, in the background AIB will use every trick in the book so that this will cost them as little as possible and I've no doubt their customers will find one how very clever their terms and conditions are.


Yes I know Irish taxpayers will do nothing, which really is a shame because we have the power and numbers on this one.


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## Black_Adder (25 Jan 2016)

The Government have no fear of any realistic protest movement.

The water issue was obvious even to the most blind. Once 'rent-a-crowd' took over 'decent middle class' exited.
The banking issue - people didn't feel they knew enough to get involved. Obvious now that nobody did.
Once one has a house, education for children and can survive - that is it. They have enough to do apparently.
'Move on - nothing to see here'.


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## Mr Holmes (25 Jan 2016)

Black_Adder said:


> The Government have no fear of any realistic protest movement.
> 
> The water issue was obvious even to the most blind. Once 'rent-a-crowd' took over 'decent middle class' exited.
> The banking issue - people didn't feel they knew enough to get involved. Obvious now that nobody did.
> ...



I am led to believe that the Irish Central Bank are ready to fire their enforcement cannons at certain banks, but are awaiting the strategic order from their commander Michael Noonan. ( it's election time folks! )


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## Black_Adder (25 Jan 2016)

Mr Holmes - I think the last time CBI took enforcement action against PTSB it was based on solid evidence.
Mr Noonan I think will resist any direct action pending outcome of what CBI are currently doing but there may be the usual 'meeja' guff.
I also think if DoF wanted early result they would look to FSO and how they are getting on er on the second review and I would shower them with resources and print out copies of 2004 Act that created the beast and say 'read that' now go forth..


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## rodger (25 Jan 2016)

Did anyone find it odd that CEO of Aib would suggest in interview that it could take 5 years to resolve this tracker issue?

That's hardly what institutional investors want to hear?

I agree it's DoF who are pulling the strings in the central bank review.


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## todo (25 Jan 2016)

The longer this goes on the better it is for the banks, they are in no rush to resolve anything, they have the 6 year limit and also in mean time they are creaming money off their captive customers when the banks need it most.

Through out this whole thing its been a win-win for the banks.

Bailout paid by the taxpayer
Free biased complaints department (FSO) provided by the tax payer.
Central Bank/Financial Regulator -- absent, no enforcement of the consumer protection code.
Unfair terms in loan agreements -- again no one in power does anything about this.
Extortionate rates being charged to captive customers --- no one in power does anything about this.

Michael Noonan, thinks we should wait and see, meanwhile we get fleeced, if the boot was on the other foot the banks wouldn't have to wait and see there would immediate action by government to help the banks.

The central bank have no cannons, not even a bow and arrow. There is a consumer protection code there, why don't they go out and enforce it.

If there wasn't so much at stake, this would be laughable.


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## Black_Adder (25 Jan 2016)

Well I would give Consumer Director of CBI credit - he has done more than most and the ball is in play.
Middle class Ireland - are indicted as they can bring this to a head - but don't.


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## todo (25 Jan 2016)

Black_Adder said:


> Well I would give Consumer Director of CBI credit - he has done more than most and the ball is in play.
> Middle class Ireland - are indicted as they can bring this to a head - but don't.



Lets see who's net the ball ends up in, we haven't faired too well in the past.


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## rodger (25 Jan 2016)

The other amazing thing said by Aib CEO is they are employing 300 people to review the mortgage book to ensure tracker holders were treated fairly.

300 people!

And I thought it was meant to be an independent review.

Why do they need an internal review if they have treated people honourably?


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## Black_Adder (26 Jan 2016)

It is a one liner literally but The Lord hath spoken:
"...We also plan to continue our product-focused supervisory work, including the tracker mortgage examination.."
*Introductory statement by Governor Philip Lane, at the Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure & Reform 
26 January 2016*


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## todo (26 Jan 2016)

"including the tracker mortgage examination"

I'd really love to know exactly what that entails, and what exactly a supervisory role is.

Are they just going to look at reports generated by the banks or they actually going to check and make sure.


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## mactheman (26 Jan 2016)

I emailed    . The central bank yesterday about loosing my tracker mortgage they got back to me today saying they do not deal with individual cases and as I was not happy with the result of  my complaint from my own bank they said take it up with the ombudsman


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## Black_Adder (26 Jan 2016)

What it tells me is that Consumer Protection Director in CBI is engaged on this and the Boss is fully briefed.
If there was one tip I would give - if asked - the most important thing for an Investigator to know - the answer to the
questions he asks the Banks.


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## rodger (26 Jan 2016)

Black adder

Are you saying the central bank/investigator can make good judgements so long as he has the correct information?


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## Black_Adder (26 Jan 2016)

Hi roger - merely saying that if I was conducting the review - I would have knowledge on as many of the issues before I met any of the Banks.
If they don't - it will be presented in a way that best reflects the Bank.
[Bear in mind that previous tracker restoration by BoI seemed to miss a significant number of mortgages that should have been restored and were not.]


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## todo (26 Jan 2016)

Black_Adder said:


> [Bear in mind that previous tracker restoration by BoI seemed to miss a significant number of mortgages that should have been restored and were not.]



Is there more information on this. I was unaware that Bank of Ireland has admitted that a significant number were missed.


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## Black_Adder (26 Jan 2016)

Well there is common knowledge that BoI / ICS restored a significant number after the original numbers that they told CBI. It was a CBI initiative and was somewhat botched.


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## bogstandard (15 Feb 2016)

I posted yesterday, but it was deleted by some moderator saying I breached some guideline.

Sorry, but the details were published in the Business post.

Maybe this site or someone on it has an issue with that?


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## todo (15 Feb 2016)

bogstandard said:


> I posted yesterday, but it was deleted by some moderator saying I breached some guideline.
> 
> Sorry, but the details were published in the Business post.
> 
> Maybe this site or someone on it has an issue with that?



Do you have a link to the article you are referring too?


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## Black_Adder (16 Feb 2016)

'bogstandard' I think the moderators are unaccountable and you should refer this to Brendan.


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## PadKiss (19 Feb 2016)

There is good news from the office of the financial ombudsman today following a review of their processes which is to be welcomed. Mr Deering concluded; “I will not be found wanting in using these powers as they were intended to redress the balance between consumers and financial service providers.” Read the full press release on the fso web site this is progress and Mr Deering is to be applauded for this review and his comments 
At last there is hope this office will finally deliver for consumers of financial institutions 
Padraic


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## Thomas (19 Feb 2016)

Does this mean they will get involved in decisions made by the PTSB customer appeals panel?


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## Black_Adder (19 Feb 2016)

Extract from Operational Review conducted by Messrs Bearing Point:

*"...This document is protected under the copyright laws of Ireland and other countries as an unpublished work. This document contains information that is proprietary and confidential to BearingPoint Ireland or its technical alliance partners, which shall not be disclosed outside or duplicated, used, or disclosed in whole or in part for any purpose other than to evaluate BearingPoint Ireland. Any use or disclosure in whole or in part of this information without the express written permission of BearingPoint Ireland is prohibited.."*

So there you go - face a law suit if you say anything.


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## todo (19 Feb 2016)

PadKiss said:


> There is good news from the office of the financial ombudsman today following a review of their processes which is to be welcomed. Mr Deering concluded; “I will not be found wanting in using these powers as they were intended to redress the balance between consumers and financial service providers.” Read the full press release on the fso web site this is progress and Mr Deering is to be applauded for this review and his comments
> At last there is hope this office will finally deliver for consumers of financial institutions
> Padraic


Thanks for posting this Padraic. I sincerely hope that there will be some actions behind the promising words in this publication.

Financial institutions have used the FSO office for far too long as a free complaints department.


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## Sarenco (20 Feb 2016)

Is there anything of substance in this press release?  Perhaps I'm missing some subtlety...

[broken link removed]


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