# There's plenty of work in the country



## Peter54 (17 Jun 2011)

Not my words but the words of a now retired high ranking civil servant I had the pleasure in having a conversation with

He said that he believed the vast majority of unemployed had cash in the hand income at their disposable along with their dole and medical card.

He also said there was no foreign national in this country unemployed.

I am constantly in and out of work and have yet to be asked to work for cash.  I'm not foolish enough to believe it doesn't go on but he would have you believe the that the vast majority of unemployed are lining their pockets with a second income.


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## Purple (17 Jun 2011)

What a surprise; Public Sector employees think the private sector have it handy just like the private sector think the public sector have it handy!


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## liaconn (17 Jun 2011)

Peter54 said:


> Not my words but the words of a now retired high ranking civil servant I had the pleasure in having a conversation with
> 
> He said that he believed the vast majority of unemployed had cash in the hand income at their disposable along with their dole and medical card.
> 
> ...


 
What exactly is the purpose of this thread? Some eejit said some ridiculous stuff??


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## csirl (17 Jun 2011)

The point has to be made that we still have large numbers of imported non-EU workers, on work permits, doing relatively unskilled jobs e.g. the majority of convenience store and catering workers. Why are we importing unskilled labour when we've 14% unemployment?


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## Mpsox (17 Jun 2011)

I'm not convinced everyone drawing the dole is doing nixers, there may be some, but not everyone.

However the comment on foreign nationals is an interesting one. I've been doing a lot of traveling this week for work, I stopped at 2 hotels for dinner during the week, staff were all foreign, and likewise, passing through Dublin Airport, no one who served me had an Irish accent. Most were Asian. I've never understood why a lot of Irish people wouldn't take a job like that at home but the minute they leave the country, will take any job they can find in Australia or England. Is it because there is little enough incentive for them to take a job at home. If there isn't a foreign national on the dole in this country, good luck to em


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## liaconn (17 Jun 2011)

csirl said:


> The point has to be made that we still have large numbers of imported non-EU workers, on work permits, doing relatively unskilled jobs e.g. the majority of convenience store and catering workers. Why are we importing unskilled labour when we've 14% unemployment?


 
I don't think new work permits are being issued any more except in very very rare situations. Most of the people on work permits would have come over during the celtic tiger years to do the work the Irish didn't want to do. Many of them now have children going to school in Ireland and have bought houses here. Do you think they should all be sent home because we now want their jobs?


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## Deiseblue (17 Jun 2011)

Peter54 said:


> Not my words but the words of a now retired high ranking civil servant I had the pleasure in having a conversation with
> 
> He said that he believed the vast majority of unemployed had cash in the hand income at their disposable along with their dole and medical card.
> 
> ...



If this retired person had signed on for an 18 month period as I did in recent years he would never have said that " there was no foreign national unemployed " - the variety of languages spoken in that long winding queue was huge.


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## liaconn (17 Jun 2011)

Peter54 said:


> Not my words but the words of *a now retired high ranking civil servant *I had the pleasure in having a conversation with
> 
> He said that he believed the vast majority of unemployed had cash in the hand income at their disposable along with their dole and medical card.
> 
> ...


 
Are you sure he was high ranking? I sometimes read articles in the paper about 'senior' civil servants or 'important decision makers' and then someone in their Department will tell you they're just a middle manager who got promoted years ago when seniority was still a criteria. Some of them are just supervising a processing area and are not involved in policy at all.


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## csirl (17 Jun 2011)

liaconn said:


> I don't think new work permits are being issued any more except in very very rare situations. Most of the people on work permits would have come over during the celtic tiger years to do the work the Irish didn't want to do. Many of them now have children going to school in Ireland and have bought houses here. Do you think they should all be sent home because we now want their jobs?


 
Work permits are for temporary workers and most are renewable annually - so they must be still giving them out. We dont have a US style green card system here, so anyone coming to work here on a year to year basis is doing so on the understanding that they will only be here a short number of years and will have to return home. I would find it hard to believe that they would get mortgages to buy homes on temporary low paid work. Most seem too young to have children in school. 

Yes, there are a lot of overseas people who are permanently in Ireland - mostly from other EU countries. They should not be confused with the mainly young and single non-EU workers who are only here on temporary short term permits.


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## micmclo (17 Jun 2011)

csirl said:


> The point has to be made that we still have large numbers of imported non-EU workers, on work permits, doing relatively unskilled jobs e.g. the majority of convenience store and catering workers. Why are we importing unskilled labour when we've 14% unemployment?



Some of those English language schools in Ireland are little more then a back door way to get access to Ireland  
They exist on paper.

And the rule that the students cannot work over 20 hours is widely abused

Widely reported, here is one from 2007 so a bit old
http://www.independent.ie/national-...sted-in-visa-factory-schools-probe-44225.html


> THE director of a private third-level college was arrested yesterday in a major crackdown on 'visa factory' schools luring foreign students to Ireland.
> There are concerns about hundreds, if not thousands, of students paying colleges up to €5,000 in fees and a further €2,000 for documentation for questionable courses.
> 
> The Garda National Immigration Bureau (GNIB) Operation Feather targeted at least five private colleges in recent days, because of concerns about bogus schools and possible immigration scams.
> ...


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## Staples (17 Jun 2011)

Some moughty retiree gave you his opinion on the plight of the unemployed.

So what?  It's not like he was presenting government policy.

If he said the earth was flat, would you start a thread on that too?


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## Peter54 (17 Jun 2011)

As a matter of fact this person was involved with policy making.  

I thought this was the letting off steam section


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## liaconn (17 Jun 2011)

csirl said:


> Work permits are for temporary workers and most are renewable annually - so they must be still giving them out. We dont have a US style green card system here, so anyone coming to work here on a year to year basis is doing so on the understanding that they will only be here a short number of years and will have to return home. I would find it hard to believe that they would get mortgages to buy homes on temporary low paid work. Most seem too young to have children in school.
> 
> Yes, there are a lot of overseas people who are permanently in Ireland - mostly from other EU countries. They should not be confused with the mainly young and single non-EU workers who are only here on temporary short term permits.


 
Yes, they are_ renewing_ work permits for people who were here before the crash and had put down roots. New ones are only being issued, as I said, on an exceptional basis. And we do have a Green Card system for very highly qualified people in areas where Ireland has a shortage of such expertise.


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## liaconn (17 Jun 2011)

Peter54 said:


> As a matter of fact this person was involved with policy making.
> 
> I thought this was the letting off steam section


 
Yes, but that doesn't mean we can't question the point of a thread, or the reliability of the person you're quoting. He sounds like a numpty spouting out rubbish, and I doubt he had a significant role in whatever he did in the civil Service. Like I said before, probably promoted years ago when seniority was a criteria and one of the examples of why it has been abolished now for most promotions.


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## Complainer (17 Jun 2011)

Peter54 said:


> Not my words but the words of a now retired high ranking civil servant I had the pleasure in having a conversation with
> 
> He said that he believed the vast majority of unemployed had cash in the hand income at their disposable along with their dole and medical card.


Did you think of asking him why he didn't fix this up before he retired? Given his high rank, he'd definitely have been able to sort this out, right?


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## Deiseblue (17 Jun 2011)

Peter54 said:


> As a matter of fact this person was involved with policy making.
> 
> I thought this was the letting off steam section




In charge of the Ministry for silly walks perhaps ?

Seems to have all the qualifications !


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## liaconn (17 Jun 2011)

Peter54 said:


> As a matter of fact this person was involved with policy making.


 
I bet his colleagues valued his thoughtful, insightful and creative inputs.


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## Leper (21 Jun 2011)

We're losing our way here folks and not for the first time. There is a huge shortage of jobs and the situation will get worse and worse. Even as I type the politicians are informing us through radio interviews that 1000 people per week are emigrating. People dont emigrate for the fun of it.

Add in the amount of people who jumped ship over the last 18 months believing that lump sums were going to be cut through extra taxes. Also, dont forget the amount of people who retired to avail of the enhanced lump-sums and were re-employed the following day (on a temporary basis, of course) doing exactly the same jobs in the same places which translates to Pension-Payment + Part-Time Payment + Lump-Sum for the person who "retired." These people are now far better off and no new job was created.

Please forgive my bad use of English in above.


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## Complainer (21 Jun 2011)

Leper said:


> Also, dont forget the amount of people who retired to avail of the enhanced lump-sums and were re-employed the following day (on a temporary basis, of course) doing exactly the same jobs in the same places which translates to Pension-Payment + Part-Time Payment + Lump-Sum for the person who "retired." These people are now far better off and no new job was created.


Source please  where did this happen?


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## Sunny (21 Jun 2011)

Complainer said:


> Source please  where did this happen?



Wasn't the next day but my mother was offered work in the health service when she took early retirement. She didn't do it but some of her colleagues did. Didn't the same happen with teachers?


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## Howitzer (21 Jun 2011)

Sunny said:


> Wasn't the next day but my mother was offered work in the health service when she took early retirement. She didn't do it but some of her colleagues did. Didn't the same happen with teachers?


Anecdotally yes, but shure wouldn't the world have collapsed without their expertise?


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## Complainer (21 Jun 2011)

Sunny said:


> Wasn't the next day but my mother was offered work in the health service when she took early retirement. She didn't do it but some of her colleagues did. Didn't the same happen with teachers?



Did she "retire to avail of the enhanced lump-sums"?


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## Sunny (22 Jun 2011)

Complainer said:


> Did she "retire to avail of the enhanced lump-sums"?



She wishes!


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## Chris (22 Jun 2011)

A relative of my wife was a consultant in a public hospital until last year. He took early retirement in order to protect his lump sum payment. As part of the retirement discussions with the hospital he was asked to continue working in the hospital in retirement, with his only demand being to never have to do on-call duty again. Three weeks after he "retired" he was back in surgery. Most of his colleagues that were of the same age, i.e. close to retirement, did exactly the same thing.


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## liaconn (22 Jun 2011)

Leper said:


> We're losing our way here folks and not for the first time. There is a huge shortage of jobs and the situation will get worse and worse. Even as I type the politicians are informing us through radio interviews that 1000 people per week are emigrating. People dont emigrate for the fun of it.
> 
> Add in the amount of people who jumped ship over the last 18 months believing that lump sums were going to be cut through extra taxes. Also, dont forget the amount of people who retired to avail of the enhanced lump-sums and were re-employed the following day (on a temporary basis, of course) doing exactly the same jobs in the same places which translates to Pension-Payment + Part-Time Payment + Lump-Sum for the person who "retired." These people are now far better off and no new job was created.
> 
> Please forgive my bad use of English in above.


 
Where did this happen? Definitely not in the Civil Service.


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## Complainer (22 Jun 2011)

Chris said:


> A relative of my wife was a consultant in a public hospital until last year. He took early retirement in order to protect his lump sum payment. As part of the retirement discussions with the hospital he was asked to continue working in the hospital in retirement, with his only demand being to never have to do on-call duty again. Three weeks after he "retired" he was back in surgery. Most of his colleagues that were of the same age, i.e. close to retirement, did exactly the same thing.


Which hospital was this, Chris? And is he working on public patients since his retirement?


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## Mpsox (22 Jun 2011)

Sunny said:


> Wasn't the next day but my mother was offered work in the health service when she took early retirement. She didn't do it but some of her colleagues did. Didn't the same happen with teachers?


 
Happened in the private sector too, I know someone who got 2 packages out of one of the banks and still ended up working for them a 3rd time


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## Chris (23 Jun 2011)

Complainer said:


> Which hospital was this, Chris? And is he working on public patients since his retirement?



One of the large Dublin hospitals. He only ever saw public patients in his entire career, never double jobbed on publicly paid time, which according to him is an extremely rare thing to come by.


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## Complainer (23 Jun 2011)

Chris said:


> One of the large Dublin hospitals.


Which one?


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## Purple (29 Jun 2011)

Complainer said:


> Which one?



Yea, and while you're at it what's his name?


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## liaconn (30 Jun 2011)

Purple said:


> Yea, and while you're at it what's his name?


 
I thought it was a valid question.


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## MrMan (30 Jun 2011)

liaconn said:


> I thought it was a valid question.


If you name the hospital it wouldn't take much for some people to figure out who the relative is and as he isn't a participant in this discussion it hardly seems fair to expose him.


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## Complainer (30 Jun 2011)

MrMan said:


> If you name the hospital it wouldn't take much for some people to figure out who the relative is and as he isn't a participant in this discussion it hardly seems fair to expose him.


One of the joys of working in the public sector is that all your business is done in the public domain. Every single expense payment and category for many public bodies is available in the public domain. 

In this particular case, I've no interest in exposing any particular individual. If Chris does identify the hospital, I'll write to the Chairman asking if any surgeons have retired and been rehired. If I don't get the information, I'll submit an FOI request. If Chris's story doesn't hold up, I know he'll be honourable enough to cover the cost of the FOI request.


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## Shawady (1 Jul 2011)

A report on RTE radio news this morning said that according to the American Chamber of Commerce, there are approx 2,000 vacant jobs in american companies in Ireland. These are mainly skilled jobs in the Science and Technology area and the companies are having difficulty filling them.


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## MrMan (1 Jul 2011)

Complainer said:


> One of the joys of working in the public sector is that all your business is done in the public domain. Every single expense payment and category for many public bodies is available in the public domain.
> 
> In this particular case, I've no interest in exposing any particular individual. If Chris does identify the hospital, I'll write to the Chairman asking if any surgeons have retired and been rehired. If I don't get the information, I'll submit an FOI request. If Chris's story doesn't hold up, I know he'll be honourable enough to cover the cost of the FOI request.


To what end though? what will it achieve? I wouldn't assume anything about any anonymous poster btw.


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## Leo (1 Jul 2011)

Shawady said:


> A report on RTE radio news this morning said that according to the American Chamber of Commerce, there are approx 2,000 vacant jobs in american companies in Ireland. These are mainly skilled jobs in the Science and Technology area and the companies are having difficulty filling them.


 
I'm in one such company. Expension plans are being stalled due to difficulties getting suitably qualified candidates. For one role I interviewed for, in 2 months of advertising, we had 5 applicants!


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## liaconn (1 Jul 2011)

MrMan said:


> If you name the hospital it wouldn't take much for some people to figure out who the relative is and as he isn't a participant in this discussion it hardly seems fair to expose him.


 
Neither is it fair to make claims about the public service using vague terms such as 'a hospital'. There are enough false rumours going around about us.


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## Chris (1 Jul 2011)

Complainer said:


> One of the joys of working in the public sector is that all your business is done in the public domain. Every single expense payment and category for many public bodies is available in the public domain.
> 
> In this particular case, I've no interest in exposing any particular individual. If Chris does identify the hospital, I'll write to the Chairman asking if any surgeons have retired and been rehired. If I don't get the information, I'll submit an FOI request. If Chris's story doesn't hold up, I know he'll be honourable enough to cover the cost of the FOI request.



For reasons that MrMan outlined, I am not willing to expose the person in question. What I would add though, is that numerous colleagues of my wife's relative have done the exact same thing across a range of 3 Dublin hospitals and one Cork hospital. Feel free to contact the Dublin hospitals, but I really do not see to what avail.


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## Complainer (1 Jul 2011)

Chris said:


> For reasons that MrMan outlined, I am not willing to expose the person in question. What I would add though, is that numerous colleagues of my wife's relative have done the exact same thing across a range of 3 Dublin hospitals and one Cork hospital. Feel free to contact the Dublin hospitals, but I really do not see to what avail.


Please name one specific hospital where this has happened.


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## MrMan (1 Jul 2011)

liaconn said:


> Neither is it fair to make claims about the public service using vague terms such as 'a hospital'. There are enough false rumours going around about us.



So shall we 'out' this person? Being defensive about every possible chink in public service activities does not make for a productive outlook. There are problems with how the public service is run, but that has to be expected for an operation of that size.


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## Purple (1 Jul 2011)

Leo said:


> I'm in one such company. Expension plans are being stalled due to difficulties getting suitably qualified candidates. For one role I interviewed for, in 2 months of advertising, we had 5 applicants!



I'm in a small(ish) Irish company and we can't get skilled people either.


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## Latrade (1 Jul 2011)

Purple said:


> I'm in a small(ish) Irish company and we can't get skilled people either.


 
Just out of curiosity, what skills are they? 

We've bleated on to all foriegn investors about our knowledge and skills base, but it seems that most of those skills lay in construction related industries. 

We've missed the boat in too many cases now with the tech industry. Companies are expanding now and need the computer engineers now and science graduates now. Instead we've quantity surveyors and ergonomists. It annoys me that we have been flagging this up as a huge growth area for years and years, there was ample opportunity to turn it around and we would be able to capitalise. I fear not any more. Our only hope is that the rest of europe was equally negligent.


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## Shawady (1 Jul 2011)

There are plenty of Science and Engineering courses. Is it just that these graduates need 'specialist' training?
If there are genuinely shortages in candidates in some areas, surely this is something the government could get involved in regards training.


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## Purple (1 Jul 2011)

Latrade said:


> Just out of curiosity, what skills are they?
> 
> We've bleated on to all foriegn investors about our knowledge and skills base, but it seems that most of those skills lay in construction related industries.
> 
> We've missed the boat in too many cases now with the tech industry. Companies are expanding now and need the computer engineers now and science graduates now. Instead we've quantity surveyors and ergonomists. It annoys me that we have been flagging this up as a huge growth area for years and years, there was ample opportunity to turn it around and we would be able to capitalise. I fear not any more. Our only hope is that the rest of europe was equally negligent.



We need skilled machinists. They can't be got!
Of the last 10 people we hired 6 are Polish, 2 are English, one is Russian and 1 is Latvian. They are on the same rates as the Irish guys and all are well paid. There's just nobody with the skills and experience.

BTW, they have the same problem in the UK.


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## Mpsox (1 Jul 2011)

Working for a multinational, I find 2 main skills gaps in graduates. One is language, Irish grads either don't have a 2nd language or if they do, it's French. Why aren't our schools pushing Spanish, one of the fastest growing languages in the world, or Chinese?.

2nd issue we have is the poor quality of written English, in particular in terms of responding to requests. Spellcheck and txt speak has ruined a lot of grads. Interestingly  DIT have said they have to double the amount of English studies for their journalism courses.


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## Purple (1 Jul 2011)

Mpsox said:


> 2nd issue we have is the poor quality of written English, in particular in terms of responding to requests. Spellcheck and txt speak has ruined a lot of grads. Interestingly  DIT have said they have to double the amount of English studies for their journalism courses.


That's not just a problem in Ireland. Some of the emails, supply agreements, non-disclosure agreements and general business documents I receive are shockingly badly written.


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## Mpsox (1 Jul 2011)

Purple said:


> That's not just a problem in Ireland. Some of the emails, supply agreements, non-disclosure agreements and general business documents I receive are shockingly badly written.


 
I agree, worked in England in the 90s and we had to put the Alphabet on the apptitude test after we found 2 new recruits getting confused. Interestingly, I find some well qualifed Polish staff have better writen English then many of my local team.


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## Leo (1 Jul 2011)

Latrade said:


> Just out of curiosity, what skills are they?


 
IT in my case, specifically software engineers.


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## Leo (1 Jul 2011)

Enough on the outing of the individual hospital/ person involved above. AAM isn't the place for such discussion as it veers close to libel territory.
Leo


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## Brendan Burgess (1 Jul 2011)

I am closing this thread. 

It has been suggested that some consultants have retired and have been taken back on as "consultants".

I have no idea whether this is true or not. If anyone cares enough about it, they can FoI it. 

Brendan


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