# Summons for no TV license



## Martinslan

My student daughter got a registered letter yesterday with a summons for having no TV License in the flat. Her name (both first and surname ) are not spelt correctly. She got no visit from a TVLI or any warning. Due in court in late Dec. Any advise. Does she just buy a tv license now, turn up and explain and apologise to the court and get on with it. Any comments, please.


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## csirl

> Any advise. Does she just buy a tv license now, turn up and explain and apologise to the court and get on with it. Any comments, please.


 
Probably the best course of action.



> . She got no visit from a TVLI or any warning.


 
Cable and satellite TV companies are required to give the TV license people their customer lists. If e.g. NTL says they hooked up your daughters TV for cable, then this is all the proof they need.



> Her name (both first and surname ) are not spelt correctly.


 
A lot of Judges now days are intolerant of people trying to get off because of misspelling on summons if it is clear who the summons was intended for. She should ask for the spelling to be corrected, but it would be dangerous for her to claim that the summons is not for her if it is clear to everyone that she is the intended recipient. In any event, even if the Judge did throw the case out due to the misspelling, they'd just issue your daughter with another summons with correct spelling which would mean a second trip to court for her.


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## jhegarty

Unless someone is in court to testify that they have seen a TV in her house the case will be throw out.....


She shouldn't lie about having a TV , but she doesn't have to give evidence against herself...


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## csirl

> Unless someone is in court to testify that they have seen a TV in her house the case will be throw out.....
> 
> 
> She shouldn't lie about having a TV , but she doesn't have to give evidence against herself...


 
Bear in mind that District Court Cases are summary hearings in which both parties agree to proceed, quite often because the facts are generally known. If your daughter does have a TV and doesnt have a license, you shouldnt pretend otherwise or try to act the smart alec by saying "where's the proof" etc.

If you do decide to go down the "where's the proof" route, its likely that the TV License people will appeal to the Circuit Criminal Court and have the case dealt with as a full blown criminal case in a more formal court setting with Barristers, jury etc & where witnesses are summonses etc etc. rather than a short and painless District Court hearing. The TV license people would then summons e.g. NTL technican who fitted cable or whoever else physically saw a TV in your daughters possession. 

If you daughter is innocent (i.e. didnt have a TV without a license) then by all means fight the charge. But if she's guilty, she'll more likely get a stiffer sentance if shes uncooperative. The best outcome for you in this case is the District Court slap across the wrist, no criminal record and contibution to poor box. If it goes to Circuit Court, she will have a criminal record that she will have to declare if she loses.


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## Guest127

she would have received at least two or three warning notices prior to the actual summons being issued. what happened to these? Buy the licence, ring the tv licence section and they may just scrap the court appearance. Should have done that with the warnings though. if your daughter is in rented accommodation there is a possability that one of the other students gave her name to the inspector and (conspiracy theory) didn't tell your lassie about the visit.


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## Martinslan

Thanks very much for the relpies.  They do not have any account with the likes of NTL or SKY. (can't afford it)   They have a 14" TV and a dvd player to watch movies.  I take the point about being a smart alec so I think I will council her, to say that she is a student and the first indication she had either by visit or letter was the summons, where by she bought a license, which she can have in her hand and offer an apology for any misunderstand. (and hope the fine is not too great )


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## Mel

When I was in college we put off buying the tv licence as long as possible, as students tend to do (it's much more tempting tp put the money towards cheap vodka!). 
I _think_ we got a summons in the end, which prompted us to buy the licence pretty quickly, and I think this put an end to the whole thing. When she buys the licence it might be worth checking with the tv licence people if they will then cancel proceedings.


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## aaa1

Had the same experience - if you buy the licence before the court date, the court appearance is cancelled as the 'crime' is no longer in existence


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## mf1

aaa1 said:


> Had the same experience - if you buy the licence before the court date, the court appearance is cancelled as the 'crime' is no longer in existence



Not true - the offence is not having the tv licence on the date specified on the summons. But its a lot better to have one when you do go to Court. Shows willing. 

mf


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## bond-007

csirl said:


> Bear in mind that District Court Cases are summary hearings in which both parties agree to proceed, quite often because the facts are generally known. If your daughter does have a TV and doesnt have a license, you shouldnt pretend otherwise or try to act the smart alec by saying "where's the proof" etc.
> 
> If you do decide to go down the "where's the proof" route, its likely that the TV License people will appeal to the Circuit Criminal Court and have the case dealt with as a full blown criminal case in a more formal court setting with Barristers, jury etc & where witnesses are summonses etc etc. rather than a short and painless District Court hearing. The TV license people would then summons e.g. NTL technican who fitted cable or whoever else physically saw a TV in your daughters possession.
> 
> If you daughter is innocent (i.e. didnt have a TV without a license) then by all means fight the charge. But if she's guilty, she'll more likely get a stiffer sentance if shes uncooperative. The best outcome for you in this case is the District Court slap across the wrist, no criminal record and contibution to poor box. If it goes to Circuit Court, she will have a criminal record that she will have to declare if she loses.


All I can say is that is not how district court hearings are conducted. 
Having no TV licence is a summary offence and as such is tried in the district court. In order to get a conviction the prosecution, in this case An Post must present evidence of the offence. To do this they will call the inspector as a witness. He or she will then give evidence of calling to the address at the date in question and having asked the occupant for a valid licence and no licence being produced obtained the name of the occupant. 
The inspector will have to give evidence regardless of what plea is entered by the accused. The judge will decide the case on its merits there and then. In the absence of the inspectors evidence the accused will be aquitted. 
This will go no where near the circuit criminal courts (are you a tv licence inspector trying to frighten the OP?) If the accused wins and gets off An Post are very unlikely to appeal. If the accused is convicted they will face a fine of up to €635 but if a licence is purchased prior to the court the fine is likely only to be around €100.



> if your daughter is in rented accommodation there is a possability that one of the other students gave her name to the inspector and (conspiracy theory) didn't tell your lassie about the visit.


This has happened in the past. As the inspectors don't ask for ID, they just take what name is given it should be contested if someone simply gave her name.


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## MandaC

The Tv Licence Inspector does actually have to call to the house and obtain a name to send letters to.  I know there was talk of An Post trying to obtain lists of cable tv customers from sky/ntl, but I dont think that it was actually passed.  It is highly likely that one of the other students gave your daughters name when confronted.

Once they have a name, it goes straight into the database and the reminders, etc start coming.  

My sister saw a man who seemed to be interfering in peoples bins on the road opposite.  She phoned the guards as the bins were outside sitting room windows and it looked like he was trying to break into houses. Gards came and it eventually turned out that it was the TV Licence Inspector taking names from the bin stickers to send letters to.  He is not supposed to do this and as far as I can remember was told to stop by the gardai. I would think 9 times out of 10 once the person got the letter they would pay up, so it would have quite a success rate!


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## bond-007

Also they must gain access to the property to ascertain that there is a tv in the house before they can prosecute, believe it or not, not everyone has a tv. They can't prosecute on the strength of a name alone. I would suspect that by not verifying the name, by asking for ID for example it would put them on very dodgy ground.


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## coolhandluke

MandaC said:


> The Tv Licence Inspector does actually have to call to the house and obtain a name to send letters to.  I know there was talk of An Post trying to obtain lists of cable tv customers from sky/ntl, but I dont think that it was actually passed.  It is highly likely that one of the other students gave your daughters name when confronted.
> 
> Once they have a name, it goes straight into the database and the reminders, etc start coming.
> 
> My sister saw a man who seemed to be interfering in peoples bins on the road opposite.  She phoned the guards as the bins were outside sitting room windows and it looked like he was trying to break into houses. Gards came and it eventually turned out that it was the TV Licence Inspector taking names from the bin stickers to send letters to.  He is not supposed to do this and as far as I can remember was told to stop by the gardai. I would think 9 times out of 10 once the person got the letter they would pay up, so it would have quite a success rate!




This is very interesting, does anyone actually know what the exact position is here ?


Because i moved into a new house three weeks ago (rented) and i came home the other day to find a card and counterfoil (like from a ticket) in the letterbox the other day giving me (named) 10 days to aquire a licence.
  The bin was outside the house and the only possible way he could have got the name was off the bin,he did not gain access to the house fullstop.
  Also i have lived in this estate for a no. of years and i know my name is on at least 2 other bins in the estate (bin tags).
  This to me seems highly irregular carry on from an post,because at the end of the day they deliver the post and know exactly who lives where,but legally are not allowed just to put a name down.

Any views ?


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## Stifster

Is there any chance the landlord gave them the name?

In any event it appears from the 1926 Act that the MInister must write to you first seeking a declaration as to whether you have a tv or not.


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## coolhandluke

Stifster said:


> Is there any chance the landlord gave them the name?.



No chance , i haven't seen him since the day i moved in and he wouldn't even give me a forwarding address.It was definitely taken off the bin,there's no other way he could possibly have got it.


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## terrysgirl33

Things have changed since I was a student!  We got a notice about the TV licence, but we just got rid of the TV.  Never heard anything more, but I can't remember what the letter was exactly.

BTW, DH insisted on cutting out the part of the bin tag (the sticker on the bin) that has our name on it, and doesn't fill in that part of the bin tag that you put on when you put the bin out.  Looks like he has a point!


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## MandaC

If they did get it from the bin, then it is more than likely that a letter will come addressed to Mr. XXXX or the Occupier, stating that there is no record of a tv licence at that address and that the inspector is going to call and you will get a fine,  blah, blah, blah.

that she saw the guy interfering with the houses/bins.  We were in the same area, so I'd say the same inspector 

Usually if Mr. X does live at that address then he will know the game is up and will just have to buy a licence.  The second letter that comes with your name on it will come with a statutory declaration.  It is a legal declaration and by law you have to complete it within I think 14 days.  On the declaration, you are declaring whether or not you have a tv.  If you do send back the declaration, then again the name is confirmed.

If you do not complete the declaration, it will be sent to you again by registered post.  By collecting the registered post for Mr. XXX then you are confirming that you are indeed Mr. X, so their records are proved correct.

If its not collected, the same process starts again.....Dear Mr. X or the Occupier.  The TV Licence Inspector does have to actually call and make contact, but once they have your name, 80% of people will actually pay.

Bear in mind, a summons cannot come in the name of the occupier and thats why it is so important to An Post to have the name.


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## bond-007

> Bear in mind, a summons cannot come in the name of the occupier and thats why it is so important to An Post to have the name.


 But it seems they are content with any old name, esp when they don't verify it by reference to ID etc.

Down my way it is the local postman that acts as the informant for them. I was not a week in my new house when a letter addressed to me personally arrived telling me to get a licence or else. The only way they could have got my name was the postman. Needless to say I did buy a licence that week.


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## MandaC

They are content with "any old name", but if they get the wrong name, say, you will ring and say,  well Mr. XXx does not live here, I do.  Then hey, presto, they still have the name.

I know someone who has not had a TV Licence for 15 years, despite the Inspector calling a couple of times.  Not going to say how its done, as its telling people how to be dishonest, but he got away with it and still is, as far as I know.  Needs a real brass neck.    Dont think I would be bothered for the price of the thing.


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## coolhandluke

The aera i live in has a huge no. of rental properties with lots of people moving in and out,the bins are done on a tag system but the person who actually got the bin and hence has their name on it may be long gone.I actually have no issue paying the licence and would have got around to it as i had one in my previous place.
   My issue is that if An Post are going to start issuing warnings/summonses on the most flimsy of evidence against people who may have long gone then this is quite a serious matter.
*Absolute Worst case senario* is person who has long gone,gets a no. of warnings issued (current tenants don't care) then a summons,doesn't turn up in court (as why would they even know) gets fined ,doesn't pay.
  Has a commital warrent issued against them, their out on the town some night and get arrested for some minor offence and suddenly find themselves being conveyed to mountjoy on foot of warrent till the whole thing is sorted out.

 Now if someone tells me they must verify the occupant,well then i'd say fair enough.


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## MandaC

It can't go that far unless the Inspector actually called.  All they will do if they have your name from the bin/post is to keep sending letters and the declaration thing. The summons relates to the Inspector calling to the property at a certain date and time. 

However, if someone were to give your name when the inspector called,  and no contact made on foot of the letters, then it would go all the way to the summons.  They dont check ID to prove that the person is giving the right name, so legally there could be an issue.


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## csirl

Its easy to speculate about how the name was obtained etc., but bear in mind that An Post police TV licences, so its easy for them to find out who lives at an address.

However, once you get to court and are on front of the Judge, what answer are you going to give to the following questions?

1. Did you have a TV at the time of the alleged offence?
2. Did you have a TV license at the time of the alleged offence?

If you lie and the inspectors have proof, then you have problems.


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## MandaC

They can't send you a summons unless the Inspector calls to the address and speaks to someone.  Taking a name from a Bin Tag/Postman will allow them to send you reminders, etc, but no summons will issue.

Does anybody know if you legally have to give your name or someones name to the Inspector?


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## jhegarty

csirl said:


> Its easy to speculate about how the name was obtained etc., but bear in mind that An Post police TV licences, so its easy for them to find out who lives at an address.
> 
> However, once you get to court and are on front of the Judge, what answer are you going to give to the following questions?
> 
> 1. Did you have a TV at the time of the alleged offence?
> 2. Did you have a TV license at the time of the alleged offence?
> 
> If you lie and the inspectors have proof, then you have problems.



but thats not how a court case works..... they can't just drag you into court and ask you if you committed a crime , they need proof...

or could you be called to court and asked if you ever broke the speed limit in your life ....


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## bond-007

MandaC said:


> They can't send you a summons unless the Inspector calls to the address and speaks to someone.  Taking a name from a Bin Tag/Postman will allow them to send you reminders, etc, but no summons will issue.
> 
> Does anybody know if you legally have to give your name or someones name to the Inspector?


No, you are not obliged to answer any of their questions or give your name. Also they have no right of entry into a house unless they have a search warrant and are with Gardaí.


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## MandaC

They have left themselves open from a legal point of view then.

And that makes sense to me.  I remember something similar from when I did debt collecting.


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## Martinslan

Update;  

1. Student Daughter purchased  TV license yesterday, (there goes the money from two of her gigs!! ) 
2. Upon "mature reflection" she thinks she may have recieved some letter saying that TVLI are working in your area etc.  ( my version of that is that she got reminders)  And no force was used by me to get this admission, honest !!! 
3. The flat is on the 2nd floor and she never saw or "buzzed in" a TVLI, so yes she can only assume that someone else either let him in or just gave her name to the TVLI. (all fair in love and war as a student, no matter). She has checked but no one can remember Nov 06. This, I believe as students can't remember what happened last week. 
4. MandaC, she never got a registered letter requesting a "declaration". The only thing that caused her to call for Daddy was a registered letter with the District Court Summons. 
5. All in all, the best way forward still seem to be, for her to turn up in court, listen to the TVLI, then tell the judge she is a student, that she never met or saw the Inspector (true), spends most holidays at home so may have missed warning letters, show the new TV License and apologise. Then hope for as little a fine as possible. 
6. and of course I will still think she's the greatest...


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## Guest127

As she is now in possession of a licence she (preferably) should contact the licence section of An Post and explain the situation. Most of the time they will cancel the court appearance as they don't actually want to take anyone to court. MandaC is correct but afaik An Post have a fairly accurate datebase of all addresses in the country, updated fairly regularly by the postpersons on the various routes. I can remember - not too many years ago - collecting for a secondary school draw and using the bin numbers to help find the correct houses  as  we were only 'targeting' past pupils.


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## Martinslan

Cuchulainn,  now that is a most interesting suggestion. I have looked up the 'net and the TV License office covering her area is 1/2 O'Connell St Dublin 2.  I will get her to call in altogether with both the new TV Liciense and the summons.  I will advise of developments. thanks


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## csirl

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *csirl* http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?p=524094#post524094
> _Its easy to speculate about how the name was obtained etc., but bear in mind that An Post police TV licences, so its easy for them to find out who lives at an address.
> 
> However, once you get to court and are on front of the Judge, what answer are you going to give to the following questions?
> 
> 1. Did you have a TV at the time of the alleged offence?
> 2. Did you have a TV license at the time of the alleged offence?
> 
> If you lie and the inspectors have proof, then you have problems._
> 
> 
> but thats not how a court case works..... they can't just drag you into court and ask you if you committed a crime , they need proof...
> 
> or could you be called to court and asked if you ever broke the speed limit in your life ....


 
I know, but thats not the point I'm trying to make. What I'm trying to say is that someone who is guilty should think twice about pretending to be innocent in court as the other side may then start producing the proof. Remember that at the start of each case, the accussed gets asked to make a guilty or not guilty plea.


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## bond-007

> Remember that at the start of each case, the accused gets asked to make a guilty or not guilty plea.


 Not in a district court. The evidence is presented first and then the accused is asked for his side of the story. This is always the way things are done in summary trials.

In *serious* criminal matters a book of evidence must be served on the accused before any trial can commence. So the accused knows what evidence the prosecutor has before he/she decides which way to plead. 

I suggest you head down and observe the local district court for a day, it will be informative for you.


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## collieb

I got a summons this morning to appear in court in January over not having a licence in February last. I moved into a new house last January, the guy that called must have talked to a guy who was renting in the house and gave my name - I subsequently got 2 reminder letters and I got around to buying my licence in June. I never received the declaration where you have to state that you own a TV set. 

Anyway, I rang the office on O'Connell Street this morning and they say that if I pay the balance corresponding to the period between when the inspector arrived in february and when I bought in in June, they will put a stop to the summons. Needless to say I'm straight up there at lunch time!


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## stir crazy

MandaC said:


> Taking a name from a Bin Tag/Postman will allow them to send you reminders, etc, but no summons will issue.
> 
> Does anybody know if you legally have to give your name or someones name to the Inspector?




I'd like to know the answer to this too. 

I see many names and addresses in Thoms directory , all there without the permission of the householders so cant they get the name of the householders from Thoms Directory or the electoral roll ?


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## bond-007

It would not prove anything in a court of law.

They would still need to prove the presence of a tv without a licence and get the name of the person in charge. 

I have often questioned the legality of publications like Thoms directory. It seems worse than Big Brother.


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## ClubMan

For what it's worth ... somebody I know got a summons recently for not having a _TV _license. They were obviously obliged to buy a license immediately which they did. They were also due in court soon but were unable to make this and tried to get it rescheduled. Turns out that they were able to get out of the court appearance altogether by paying costs of €160 (same as they would probably have been fined anyway?) and the case was cancelled on the basis of a letter from the _TV _licensing crowd saying that they would not enter any evidence.


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## bond-007

It would seem that common sense prevails at TV licence HQ.


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## ClubMan

Sorry - the costs were €180 not €160. Seemingly it's difficult to find the office - a door near the _Kylemore _on _O'Connell Street _with no signage other than for some school of _English_!


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## collieb

Thats the same place I've to go today Clubman - the door is right beside Kylemore on O'Connell Street and it has a sign for An POst on the inside of the door. In my case, I've to pay 70 or 80 euro, as I purchased the licence a while back so I'm only liable for difference between the two dates. 

Seems like they are issuing more summons' lately?? Or is just that we happen to all be looking at this thread!!


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## ClubMan

collieb said:


> Thats the same place I've to go today Clubman - the door is right beside Kylemore on O'Connell Street and it has a sign for An POst on the inside of the door. In my case, I've to pay 70 or 80 euro, as I purchased the licence a while back so I'm only liable for difference between the two dates.


It seems that they calculate costs based on when they originally wrote to you to when you bought the license. I guess my mate was warned over a year ago hence the €180. In actual fact he has not had a license for about 20 years so he got a bargain!


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## Pique318

paying for a TV licence to fund RTé does not seem like any kind of a bargain if you ask me.


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## ClubMan

Pique318 said:


> paying for a TV licence to fund RTé does not seem like any kind of a bargain if you ask me.


I was obviously referring to the fact that for c. 20 years he has paid €180 (costs) + €158 (new license) instead of 20 years worth of licenses.


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## Martinslan

Status Update; case was on this morning. My student daughter presented herself. Case was called, They estabilished that she was present. The TVLI told the Judge that a licience was purchased in Nov. The Judge asked someone if she was in any trouble before, that person said "no". He applied the probation act. It all happened so fast that Student daughter was left confused by the whole thing. Never got to say a word. She asked a Garda what it ment and he said "your grand, no fine , off with you."  So she did just that.
While she waited for her case to be called any "no shows" were being fined €100 plus €36 costs. 

I would like to say thanks to all for their comments to this thread.
Martin Slán


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## ClubMan

Martinslan said:


> While she waited for her case to be called any "no shows" were being fined €100 plus €36 costs.


Maybe my mate should have just not shown up and saved himself €44?


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## Simeon

An earlier letter said that NTL are required to provide names and addresses to the PO. I've been told that this is not so. A friend's son lives in a house where there are over ten seperate units. Has been there for yonks and has never had a licence, warning from PO or a knock on the door regarding same. NTL supply to all the flats. Only one resident (a PO worker) has a licence. Hmmm!


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## MandaC

If you are not legally obliged to give the Inspector a name, then I think an Post have a problem.


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## bond-007

Yes they do have a problem. Hence the skullduggery they get up with rifling bins etc. I suspect this is a court case waiting to happen.
Unless the Gardaí attend with the inspector there is absolutely no legal obligation to give them your name.


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## MandaC

Even though they can rifle your bin, they still have to catch someone at the address.  A guy I know just refuses point blank to give his name,  when they call he just says, sorry, I dont live here, am just minding the house and they ask who does, and he says, I dont want to get anyone into trouble, you will have to come back and see the owners yourself.


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## Sylvester3

MandaC said:


> Even though they can rifle your bin, they still have to catch someone at the address.  A guy I know just refuses point blank to give his name,  when they call he just says, sorry, I dont live here, am just minding the house and they ask who does, and he says, I dont want to get anyone into trouble, you will have to come back and see the owners yourself.



Some people must get enjoyment from just fiddling the system - I couldn't even begin to start living with the stress of never being able to answer the door for fear that I'm going to get a summons. I don't answer the door anyway, unless I know someones coming, but thats because I'm avoiding door-to-door salesmen.....


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