# Orange Order marching season



## STEINER (17 Jul 2013)

Is it not enough for this organisation to have their day out on 12th July and be done with it?  Many countries have national days and they don't parade around for weeks on end.  I was up in NI for a few days last summer, had a nice time, saw Titanic dockyard, Stormont, Giant's Causeway etc.  I waited til August though.  Its no-go in July.


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## Sunny (17 Jul 2013)

Many Countries don't ban marches. Could never understand why nationalists got their knickers in a twist over silly looking people marching down the road. Can't understand why the Orange order feel like they have to a right to knowingly antagonise local communities. Do they welcome tricolour Irish dancers down shankhill on Paddys day? Actually there is still a lot of that place I don't understand! 

On a serious side, do these people have any idea what damage they are doing to attracting in investment and jobs? And they moan about the state of the economy.


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## delgirl (18 Jul 2013)

The parades commission have made great progress in trying to appease both sides during the ridiculous marching season.

As a child I have memories of dreading 12th July (Orange Men) and 13th July (Black Men). The marches would mean we would have to stay indoors all day as there was always rioting in a neighbouring area due to thousands of loyalists, who descended on the area from all over Northern Ireland, insisting on marching right through the middle of a nationalist area. Back in those terrible days, they were allowed to do it and were in fact facilitated and protected by the police and British army who flanked both sides of their chosen parade route and quelled any nationalist protest with violence.  

You only have to listen to biggoted idiots like Edwin Poots to understand how polarised both sides are. The loyalist brick on the head will hopefully give him something to think about. 

If they want to march around their own loyalist areas then that's their perogative and I say let them at it, but they should be prevented from marching through nationalist areas as the only reason for doing so is to deliberately seek to increase tension and to antagonise the nationalist community.


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## TarfHead (18 Jul 2013)

Sunny said:


> Could never understand why nationalists got their knickers in a twist over silly looking people marching down the road.


 
+1

During the days of the tensions at Garvaghy Road, my reaction was that the locals were looking to be offended by the Orange march. Why stand at the side of the road looking for confrontation when you could do something else somewhere else ?

That said, this whole issue is one where being rational is not welcome  !


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## delgirl (18 Jul 2013)

TarfHead said:


> +1
> 
> During the days of the tensions at Garvaghy Road, my reaction was that the locals were looking to be offended by the Orange march. Why stand at the side of the road looking for confrontation when you could do something else somewhere else ?
> 
> That said, this whole issue is one where being rational is not welcome  !





Sunny said:


> Could never understand why nationalists got their knickers in a twist over silly looking people marching down the road.


You clearly don't understand and you're not alone.  I've been asked many times whilst living abroad what it's all about, and it is difficult understand unless you've lived there, experienced the secretarian hatred or studied the history of the confilict.

I am by no means a staunch nationalist and have no time for Sinn Fein / IRA, but these marches are seen as secretarian, triumphalist and are all about loyalists exerting their supremacy over the nationalist population.

These marches have a very, very violent history and symbolic importance and when they are forced into nationalist areas, it creates havoc.


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## terrontress (18 Jul 2013)

The thing is, there are other marchers from the nationalist side who wear green sashes and play music that sounds identical. These often walk in areas which are majority protestant but don't get the same level of protest.

If it is legal to march on the public road in the first place then I don't see why it should be illegal to march on any given road. Nobody owns the roads and the residents in any area should not be allowed to influence who can carry out legal activity of a given road.

In saying that, my preference would be to ban the lot. Orange and green. No more marching, reserve the roads for people to drive along.

What's laughable about a lot of this disorder is that people travel from miles away to be offended. They don't even live in the impacted areas. There is a man from England who has just arrived in the past few weeks to Northern Ireland and has been charged with rioting. I am sure the plight of the Orangemen didn't worry him last year. And a few years ago a man travelled from Barcelona to throw a breezeblock on to the head of a female police officer in protest at the parade going ahead.

The truth is that everyone loves it. The loyalists love a scrap, the republicans love a scrap, the police love a scrap and some overtime, the politicians love the exposure, the journalists love having something to write about. It is the tax and rate payers, hard working people, who pick up the tab though.


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## Bill Struth (18 Jul 2013)

If it was the simple matter of a band marching along in silly costume playing happy music then of course no one would have a problem. 
But sure you all know that anyway. Much easier to sit from a distance and say 'they're both as bad as each other'.


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## Bill Struth (18 Jul 2013)

terrontress said:


> The thing is, there are other marchers from the nationalist side who wear green sashes and play music that sounds identical. *These often walk in areas which are majority protestant but don't get the same level of protest*.


 Any examples?


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## T McGibney (18 Jul 2013)

delgirl said:


> ... Edwin Poots .... The loyalist brick on the head will hopefully give him something to think about.



It wasn't Edwin Poots who got hit with the brick. I think you should withdraw your comment.


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## Sunny (18 Jul 2013)

Bill Struth said:


> If it was the simple matter of a band marching along in silly costume playing happy music then of course no one would have a problem.
> But sure you all know that anyway. Much easier to sit from a distance and say 'they're both as bad as each other'.



Of course they would have a problem with it. A group of Protestant children couldn't march down the falls road playing baa baa black sheep without police protection. The same goes the other way as well.


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## delgirl (18 Jul 2013)

T McGibney said:


> It wasn't Edwin Poots who got hit with the brick. I think you should withdraw your comment.


Thanks for pointing that out, it was Nigel Dodds.


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## Bill Struth (19 Jul 2013)

Sunny said:


> Of course they would have a problem with it. A group of Protestant children couldn't march down the falls road playing baa baa black sheep without police protection. The same goes the other way as well.


Schoolchildren being attacked? Just like at Holy Cross? Which actually happened, attacks which were carried out by orangemen and their supporters, and isn't one of your made up little fantasies?


Ah yeah, they're just as bad as each other alright.


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## terrontress (19 Jul 2013)

Bill Struth said:


> Any examples?


 [broken link removed]

Kilkeel.


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## Bill Struth (19 Jul 2013)

terrontress said:


> [broken link removed]
> 
> Kilkeel.


 Are you really comparing the only 'contentious' AOH march, that has one single band and 50 participants, with what the OO get up to every year?


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## terrontress (19 Jul 2013)

Yes.


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## Purple (22 Jul 2013)

As long as there are Catholic/Nationalist areas and Protestant/Loyalist areas there will be problems. 
There is no comparison between the Orange Order parades (and others) and St. Patricks day parades but if banning all of them sorted things out then that's the best option.
I've always though that the best thing the Nationalists could do is join in; march behind them with tiny bowler hats, big clown shoes and massive orange sashes.   

The Orange order is an organisation with bigotry, supremacy and hatred at its core. It was founded on these principles and it hasn't changed in over a hundred years. It is done more damage to the Unionist community in Northern Ireland than the IRA ever could because it traps Unionism/Loyalism in the past and defines it in terms of that it isn't, not what it is.


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## blueband (22 Jul 2013)

Purple said:


> As long as there are Catholic/Nationalist areas and Protestant/Loyalist areas there will be problems.
> There is no comparison between the Orange Order parades (and others) and St. Patricks day parades but if banning all of them sorted things out then that's the best option.
> I've always though that the best thing the Nationalists could do is join in; march behind them with tiny bowler hats, big clown shoes and massive orange sashes.
> 
> The Orange order is an organisation with bigotry, supremacy and hatred at its core. It was founded on these principles and it hasn't changed in over a hundred years. It is done more damage to the Unionist community in Northern Ireland than the IRA ever could because it traps Unionism/Loyalism in the past and defines it in terms of that it isn't, not what it is.


I like the bit about marching behind them with big clowns shoes


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## delgirl (22 Jul 2013)

Purple said:


> As long as there are Catholic/Nationalist areas and Protestant/Loyalist areas there will be problems.
> There is no comparison between the Orange Order parades (and others) and St. Patricks day parades but if banning all of them sorted things out then that's the best option.
> I've always though that the best thing the Nationalists could do is join in; march behind them with tiny bowler hats, big clown shoes and massive orange sashes.
> 
> The Orange order is an organisation with bigotry, supremacy and hatred at its core. It was founded on these principles and it hasn't changed in over a hundred years. It is done more damage to the Unionist community in Northern Ireland than the IRA ever could because it traps Unionism/Loyalism in the past and defines it in terms of that it isn't, not what it is.


Very well put Purple.

Joining in is not an option, it would be a very dangerous thing to do and would provoke a violent reaction.

It would be great if they just had a Northern Ireland National Day, maybe in August, which would be inclusive and acceptable to all the citizens of the north. Most people there just want to get on with their lives and live in peace with their neighbours, but there is a minority on both sides who are hell bent on keeping the conflict going.


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## The_Banker (22 Jul 2013)

They could do with some educate together schools up there rather than schools which are Protestant/Catholic...
The problems wont be solved in this generation but the resolutions will have to start now so that in 30/40 years time this wont still be happening.

Also, the councils up there cant assign houses or people to areas along Catholic/Protestant lines. That only puts more people into the arms of those running the estates, the thugs who claim to be 'protecting' the people of whatever enclave.

I know this cant happen over night but the seeds have to be planted now.


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## Purple (22 Jul 2013)

The_Banker said:


> They could do with some educate together schools up there rather than schools which are Protestant/Catholic...
> The problems wont be solved in this generation but the resolutions will have to start now so that in 30/40 years time this wont still be happening.
> 
> Also, the councils up there cant assign houses or people to areas along Catholic/Protestant lines. That only puts more people into the arms of those running the estates, the thugs who claim to be 'protecting' the people of whatever enclave.
> ...



I agree completely. The Catholic Church opposes mixed schooling. It is as much to blame for the continuing sectarianism as the Orange Order.


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## oldnick (22 Jul 2013)

Delgirls' idea about a N.I. national day is great idea. After all,increasingly, N.Ireland is a separate entity and not just politically.

As far as most people I know in the "south" are concerned  the N.Irish are all the same, whether Prods or RCs, and have increasingly little in common with people down here. 

I'd go so far as to say that most southerners have little desire to be "united" with them - just as  only a small minority of Northerners have a strong desire to be united with the south.

Once there is acceptance that both side have more in common with each other than with southerners or  Brits the better for all sides.


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## delgirl (22 Jul 2013)

Purple said:


> I agree completely. The Catholic Church opposes mixed schooling. It is as much to blame for the continuing sectarianism as the Orange Order.


+1

It has to happen sooner rather than later - even President Obama mentioned it in his inspirational speech to the school children of Northern Ireland in June when he was here for the G8 summit.

He said "Catholic schools encourage division and discourage cooperation.”

How right he is and then of course he was attacked by the Bishop of Down and Connor for his remarks! 



oldnick said:


> - just as only a small minority of Northerners have a strong desire to be united with the south.


You're quite correct there oldnick, most of the catholics I've spoken to in the North don't want a united Ireland. If they could just find a way to get along with each other, it could be a great wee country!

The South African Truth and Reconcilliation Commission was, IMHO, a great idea and perhaps should be tried in the North as well to allow people to come to terms with the violence and discrimination and then move on together.


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## Sunny (22 Jul 2013)

delgirl said:


> +1
> 
> It has to happen sooner rather than later - even President Obama mentioned it in his inspirational speech to the school children of Northern Ireland in June when he was here for the G8 summit.
> 
> ...



Are you serious??? The President said nothing like that so check your quotes. He mentioned both Catholics and Protestants having their own schools was divisive. Of course the Catholic Church got on their high horse about it without actually listening to the line.


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## oldnick (22 Jul 2013)

the P


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## delgirl (23 Jul 2013)

Sunny said:


> Are you serious??? The President said nothing like that so check your quotes. He mentioned both Catholics and Protestants having their own schools was divisive. Of course the Catholic Church got on their high horse about it without actually listening to the line.


The quote was taken from the article linked to in my previous post here it is again. It's right at the top of the page.  The full quote is further down the page.  

Plans are afoot to go ahead with the mixed religion schools, despite the continued objections of the catholic bishops.


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## T McGibney (23 Jul 2013)

delgirl said:


> It would be great if they just had a Northern Ireland National Day, maybe in August, which would be inclusive and acceptable to all the citizens of the north.



There is already a shared national festival day in Northern Ireland, that is celebrated each year by both major traditions - St Patrick's Day, 17 March.


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## T McGibney (23 Jul 2013)

delgirl said:


> The quote was taken from the article linked to in my previous post here it is again. It's right at the top of the page.  The full quote is further down the page.



Your source is obviously dodgy. Here is the full official transcript of the President's speech. It doesn't contain the quote you attribute to it.


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## blueband (23 Jul 2013)

what has any of this got do with president Obama anyway! ??


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## Sunny (23 Jul 2013)

delgirl said:


> The quote was taken from the article linked to in my previous post here it is again. It's right at the top of the page.  The full quote is further down the page.
> 
> Plans are afoot to go ahead with the mixed religion schools, despite the continued objections of the catholic bishops.



Why are you using a quote that he didnt use when the full quote is available? Do you really believe the President visited Belfast and blamed one side of the divide for the division? 

Also there are lots of people other than Catholic bishops against or delaying increased mixed schooling. All for church bashing but there is enough stuff to beat them up with without having to make stuff up.


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## Sunny (23 Jul 2013)

blueband said:


> what has any of this got do with president Obama anyway! ??



Don't ask me but apparently he said it was all the Catholics fault.


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## Bill Struth (23 Jul 2013)

delgirl said:


> Plans are afoot to go ahead with the mixed religion schools, despite the continued objections of the catholic bishops.


 They got the go ahead did they? Just as well, because there's about 60 of them already.


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## The_Banker (23 Jul 2013)

Bill Struth said:


> They got the go ahead did they? Just as well, because there's about 60 of them already.


 

The more the merrier


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## Bill Struth (23 Jul 2013)

delgirl said:


> You're quite correct there oldnick, most of the catholics I've spoken to in the North don't want a united Ireland. .


Because most normal people are more concerned with putting food on the table. Thats easier to do when you're part of the UK, and not a banana republic.

By the way, a recent Belfast Telegraph poll had 48% of Catholics favouring a re-united Ireland within the next 20 years. I'm surprised it's that high tbh.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/n...s-to-irish-unification-tomorrow-28759983.html


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## Bill Struth (23 Jul 2013)

The_Banker said:


> The more the merrier


 Right on!

Funny how wanting a Catholic education for your children is only a problem in Norn Iron and Scotland. It doesn't seem to be an issue in the rest of the world.


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## Purple (23 Jul 2013)

Bill Struth said:


> Because most normal people are more concerned with putting food on the table. Thats easier to do when you're part of the UK, and not a banana republic.
> 
> By the way, a recent Belfast Telegraph poll had 48% of Catholics favouring a re-united Ireland within the next 20 years. I'm surprised it's that high tbh.
> 
> http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/n...s-to-irish-unification-tomorrow-28759983.html


I'm not in favour of a united Ireland either. My reason is that we have enough bigots here already. The extremism, racism, homophobia and general intolerance of a large minority of both tribes, sorry; communities, in Northern Ireland is something I would hate to see pollute the generally more tolerant and secular Republic of Ireland.



Bill Struth said:


> Right on!
> 
> Funny how wanting a Catholic education for your children is only a problem in Norn Iron and Scotland. It doesn't seem to be an issue in the rest of the world.


 No wanting one for your children is a problem here.


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## Bill Struth (23 Jul 2013)

Purple said:


> I'm not in favour of a united Ireland either. My reason is that we have enough bigots here already. The extremism, racism, homophobia and general intolerance of a large minority of both tribes, sorry; communities, in Northern Ireland is something I would hate to see pollute *the generally more tolerant and secular Republic of Ireland*..


 
Wow. You should spend a day sitting near some of my work colleagues, they obviously didn't get your memo...


Purple said:


> No wanting one for your children is a problem here.


Yes, I drive past an under construction Educate Together school every day, many more are needed.


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## Purple (23 Jul 2013)

Bill Struth said:


> Wow. You should spend a day sitting near some of my work colleagues, they obviously didn't get your memo...


 I di say "generally".


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## TarfHead (23 Jul 2013)

Bill Struth said:


> Wow. You should spend a day sitting near some of my work colleagues


 
Probably more a reflection on the culture in your workplace than on the culture in this country ?


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## Bill Struth (23 Jul 2013)

Is this the super tolerant Republic everyone's boasting about?



> Irish attitudes to immigration have worsened since the recession, with almost 20 per cent of people saying they are against any immigrants from different ethnic backgrounds coming in,


 


> Irish views on the effect of immigration on the economy are more negative than those in Spain, the Netherlands, Germany and the UK. Only the UK scores worse than Ireland on attitudes to the impact of immigrants on cultural life


 


> More than half of respondents surveyed in 2010 said Ireland was a worse place to live because of immigrants


 
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/soci...rant-attitudes-growing-report-shows-1.1442460



> A 2009 survey undertaken by Gallup on behalf of the European Union Agency for Fundamental (FRA) found that 73 per cent of black African respondents in Ireland believed that discrimination based on ethnicity or immigration status was widespread in the country​


 


> A study published in April 2010 by the Teachers’ Union of Ireland (TUI), involving 332 secondand third-level (institutes of technology and further education colleges) teachers, found that 28 per cent were aware of racist incidents that had occurred in their school or college during the previous month. Black children were identified as particularly vulnerable to such​incidents.


 
[broken link removed]


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## TarfHead (23 Jul 2013)

Bill Struth said:


> Is this the super tolerant Republic everyone's boasting about?


 
Everyone ? Boasting ?

No matter what stats or reports you cite for or against this country's level of tolerance for diversity, NI will always fare worse.

This will endure, until the First Minister's wife stops spewing homophobic bile, until large swathes of its citizens don't feel a need to be abroad during marching season, until people like Edwin Poots cannot get a mandate from citizens.


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## Bill Struth (23 Jul 2013)

TarfHead said:


> Everyone ? Boasting ?
> 
> No matter what stats or reports you cite for or against this country's level of tolerance for diversity, NI will always fare worse.
> 
> This will endure, until the First Minister's wife stops spewing homophobic bile, until large swathes of its citizens don't feel a need to be abroad during marching season, until people like Edwin Poots cannot get a mandate from citizens.


 

A poster made reference to 'intolerance from northern ireland polluting the republic of ireland'.

I was merely stating that this jurisdiction is already well polluted with racist intolerant attitudes.


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## Purple (23 Jul 2013)

Bill Struth said:


> Is this the super tolerant Republic everyone's boasting about?



I wasn't boasting about anything but in my experience, and from listening to the news, I am of the opinion that there's less intolerance in this part of the Island.
We can all give [broken link removed] but there's no problem with protestants marrying Catholics, no real problem with homosexuality and less racism and xenophobia, though that's still a major problem here.


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## T McGibney (24 Jul 2013)

Purple said:


> there's no problem with protestants marrying Catholics, no real problem with homosexuality and less racism and xenophobia, though that's still a major problem here.



These aren't major issues in Northern Ireland either, notwithstanding occasional ugly exceptions the type of which  arise everywhere.


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## Sunny (24 Jul 2013)

T McGibney said:


> These aren't major issues in Northern Ireland either, notwithstanding occasional ugly exceptions that arise everywhere.


 
By occasional ugly exceptions, do you mean like when the First Minister defended his wife's comments on homosexuality by declaring it was God that declared homosexuality to be an abomination (think that was the term) and not his wife?


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## T McGibney (24 Jul 2013)

Sunny said:


> By occasional ugly exceptions, do you mean like when the First Minister defended his wife's comments on homosexuality by declaring it was God that declared homosexuality to be an abomination (think that was the term) and not his wife?



Yes, but you can't legislate away people's prejudices and private opinions. I would hesitate to claim that our own politicians are morally superior to those of another jurisdiction.


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## delgirl (24 Jul 2013)

Sunny said:


> Also there are lots of people *other than Catholic bishops* against or delaying increased mixed schooling. All for church bashing but there is enough stuff to beat them up with without having to make stuff up.


There may be others other than Catholic bishops against mixed schooling, I'm only pointing out that the Catholic Church is firmly against it and has been for many years in my experience of growing up in the North and am certainly not 'making stuff up'. 

I can't quote the others who may be against it, but I am positive on the Catholic Church's position on the issue. In fact, you confirm yourself above that the Catholic bishops are in fact 'against or delaying increased mixed schooling'.


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