# Is an Eircom League club a good buy?



## almo (27 Nov 2006)

I was out for dinner last night with friends here and we were talking about soccer and the ridiculous state of the club scene here (Croatia).  Then I was asked about my experience with Shels and that they were approached by a dodgy character (like with like?) this year and how they're such a bad financial state.  I remembered Ollie Byrne saying that if someone walked in with a million euros the club was theirs.  But what are Eircom League clubs worth?


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## ClubMan (27 Nov 2006)

almo said:


> But what are Eircom League clubs worth?


Depends on the club, the players they have and - probably most importantly - the fixed assets that they own. For example _Bohs _are currently closing a deal on selling _Dalyer _for a total package (including a new stadium near _Ballymun _as part of the package) worth c. €60M but they would be unusual in _eL _circles in owning a ground of that value outright (or owning a ground at all!). I don't know of any _eL _club that has managed to balance their books consistently in recent years so, right now, an _eL _club will always lose you money and, personally, I don't see anything to suggest that this will change or that the (semi)professional football in _Ireland _will become a sustainable venture any time soon. To paraphrase an old cliché about the airline business (?) - how do you become a millionaire? Start off as a billionaire and then buy a football club!


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## Arthur Daley (27 Nov 2006)

I think it's pretty clear that football clubs in Ireland have lost money for decades so if people are sniffing around looking at it as an investment I think they must be desperate.


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## almo (27 Nov 2006)

I didn't know it was near Ballymun, great catchment area and near to home!  I missed a lot of the Shels saga, but I was certain I read that Ollie was looking for a million, but it sounded just like a franchise (which I guess Shels are in many ways).  Do they own Tolka or have a long leasehold?


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## mmclo (27 Nov 2006)

I wonder...Irish clubs have come close to qualifying for european competition. A reasonable investment of a few million would lead to complete domination domestically and a good chance of making the group stages of European competition with large TV income then. This would certainly be the case if they made the group stages of the champions league.


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## almo (27 Nov 2006)

Just to appear in the group stage they get 3million, that doesn't account for gate, merchandise etc.


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## Guest127 (27 Nov 2006)

dundalk (believe it or not 2nd most successful club in loi) have been struggling for the past 5/6 years. first a co-op was formed at €100 per head. about 800 members. next year every member was asked for anothr €25. on top of that there sponsorship, bar receipts, lotto draw, etc etc and still within 3 years they were back at nearly 1m in debt. sold a field at the back of oriel park for around €800,000 and sold the club to the same person. from what I hear he put in €130,000 last year but said as a businessman he wouldn't do it again, and that the club has to be run on a commercial basis.since then they have lifted the pitch and made it the first artificial pitch in these islands for competitive football. the pitch is currently netting them around €2,500 per week in rent. the ground has been modernised (the old oriel was getting very shabby round the edges) new dressing rooms are in the pipeline and I think the bar is going to be extended. still won't be able to afford even semi pro football as the gates are just not there. and don't forget that Dundalk came the closest of any irish team in reaching the q/f of the old european cup in 1979. nosesy joe will probably have better info than me but the rumour is that drogheda are being funded big time by 3 local business men. [broken link removed] about the pitch and www.dundalkfc.com about the club. (and yes I do have a season ticket) the bar in the fifa picture is the upstairs bar - there's two bars in oriel.


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## ClubMan (27 Nov 2006)

almo said:


> Do they own Tolka or have a long leasehold?


As far as I know they had a long (part?) leasehold which they sold for a few million a few years ago and have spent most or all of it already. Hence their eagerness to groundshare in a newly developed _Dalyer _at a relative pittance paid to _Bohs _- a prospective deal backed by the _FAI _and government which the _Bohs _members and board thankfully rejected. I think the deal valued _Dalyer _at about €10M - a laughable figure given the current deal being closed by _Bohs_.


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## almo (28 Nov 2006)

I know personally that Shels were €1million in debt when tey took on Rejkavik in the 1st Rd of the CL in 2004, but they brought in €4million between then and the UEFA Cup loss, yet the turn of 2005 and they were €1million in debt again.  I still don't understand how they did it (even buying in Glen Crowe and a host of other players), even with the mob working at the club.  I don't understand how Shels can continue limping on.

My love for Dundalk was diluted somewht when the Co-Op came in and there was some very strange dealings (and disrespect for those who'd been backing the club) and some really good young players ruined, young Martin springs to mind.  Oriel Park was always such a magnificent spot, beautiful playing surface and great atmosphere, and there is a really vibrant local soccer scene and a lot of cross over between the sports, but it would appear the squabbles and poor promotion has seen an equally disorganised GAA take off.

Is Gerry Matthews going to continue putting in cash Cuchulainn?


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## huskerdu (28 Nov 2006)

I agree with you entirely Almo about the co-op. They did not have the
financial ability ot manage the club on a week to week basis and didn't realise the work it would take. 

I dont believe that Gerry Matthews will last long, when he realises how
much work and money it is going to take in the long term. 
The only answer, as Cuchullain has pointed out it to make Oriel Park a viable
business. The big issue is getting back to where we belong - the Premier Division. 

To answer the OPs question - LoI clubs have get massive debts, run at a loss and are a money sink.


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## Guest127 (28 Nov 2006)

the co-op was doomed to failure - bad feeling between the some of the co-op members and the past board and some very genuine people who had a genuine love of the club at heart ( the travel club as an example, the bingo on tuesdays as another) whom they alienated straight away. also most of the members weren't up to the task, hence hiring of dud management and large debt once again. the less said about the last ceo the better. afaik gerry matthews says that as long as DFC survives he doesn't particulary care whether they play in oriel or some other greenfield site but oriel isn't theirs to sell, long lease of which 99 years still to run. the club is currently being run as a business, just visit the website and see the list of sponsors, dog night was a success, Christmas dinner night now coming up (€100 a pop) oriel bar booked out for birthday parties etc, good attendances in the latter part of the season ( those first four losses on the trot not alone left us with an uphill mountain to climb but also would have had a very adverse impact on gate receipts).and theres no doubt money has been spent on oriel in the past year ( I know you are in Croatia Almo) ie new floodlights, new building going on at the town side of the ground where the old toilets used to be,surface took a while to get used to but we are all used to it now and while some people might think it gives dundalk a home advantage just look at the away results this year played 18 won 12 lost 4 drew 2 and two of those losses were in the first 4 games. and in the play off against Waterford won the away game too. so the pitch not an obvious advantage. I agree with huskerdu about dundalk having to get back into the premier. if we don't it will be real bad luck. ie winning a play off and still not getting promoted. and dont forget that when we were relegated it was the first and only time that 3 teams were relegated and we had more points than the bottom two teams combined! ( and we won the cup that year - clubman) gerry matthews has built up a very solid team around him at oriel but I dont think he intends to pump money into the club willy nilly.


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## Arthur Daley (28 Nov 2006)

Yes Dundalk should be in the Premier. Otherwise it's like having Liverpool playing in the championship. 

Probably the same goes for Shamrock rovers


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## ClubMan (28 Nov 2006)

If logic prevailed then _Rovers _(winners of the _First Division _title) and _Dundalk _(winners of the play off) would be promoted to the _Premier Division _for 2007 . However this is the _eL/FAI _that we're dealing with   and up to recently the "plan" was that there would be no promotion/relegation for this season in preparation for a proper overhaul of the league structure in 2008 until they decided (or did they!) that there would be.

Unfortunately the big issue here is making the league as a whole a viable/sustainable proposition and, as a long time follower, I simply don't see this happening. 

And the answer to the original question is obviously "no".


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## Arthur Daley (28 Nov 2006)

It always seemed to me that if a semi pro or pro league was to be sustained there would have to be cull of clubs. There are too many as it is, and some mergers would be the right approach (Derry and Finn Harps, Dundalk and Drogheda) but this is unlikely due to local squabbles I know. Maybe 8 clubs playing in a pro league might work and 3 of those clubs would be Dublin based.


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## Guest127 (28 Nov 2006)

AD: clubs would soon get fed up playing each other and fans would too. going back to clubmans point of course SR & Dundalk should be promoted, one to replace Dublin City and one on a promotion/relegation basis. an alternative would be for one season only all 21 teams would play in one division with the top twelve in the premier and the bottom 9 joined by a new club to make up ( or even 3 new clubs) the 1st division. Tralee, Castlebar, Cavan, Mullingar, Clonmel, Navan etc might be able to apply. I dont have the latest census figures so I dont know which of the above would have the greater attendance potential. or even a 2nd cork team, I can recall Cork Celtic and Cork Hibernians in the league in the 60/70's


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## almo (28 Nov 2006)

Just a quick note (I'm reading with delight at this discussion) the EL is dead so long as it is a closed shop, in my humble opinion, there has to be a pyramid structure of sorts in place with access to greater prizes that it would involve.  For eg, my Uncle was a lifelong member of Tolka Rovers, they won the junior cup and had a ground and set up (with finances) that would have matched them up with the LoI, then Tony O'Connell went to Ashtownvilla and that club went from strength to strength (okay, a little weak now) with cup runs and the like.  Should they, or Tolka, or St. Mochta's, Verona (naming local sides I know) have had a chance to progress up the ranks in a German format - 1st and 2nd div's, beneath them 2 regional leagues, below them feeder sub-regions and so on.  I worked with clubs in Germany and see how little clubs with a good squad, investment or such, can battle up to the 2nd division and (like Aachen) get into Europe.  But in the EL they "invite" clubs.


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## car (28 Nov 2006)

A footballing feeder system utopia ala GAA and rugby is what you describe.  Tolka are still only a decent junior side along with several others. While Ashtown villa are gone, the aptly named phoenix athletic that are in their place will be even bigger with the new ground being built out past mulhuddart.  The other junior clubs are just that too, theyve never made any inroads to bridge the gap between the bigger intermediate clubs, wayside, cherry orchard, bluebell, glenmore etc.     All of which could have gone LOI at some stage or another over the past 20 years.  Too much hassle, too much money required.
theres few that could support it now, of the rural towns those that have teams in the u21s league struggle to hold their own. Navan has no backbone for it even with half its pop. being from dublin.   tralee couldnt hold an intermediate side together, who wants a castlebar side in it, hours on a bus.    Id say only Mullingar who've threatened for a while, theyve a fine setup but whats the most theyre ever gonna get to a match?  Half of their paid u21s have been made up of dublin players.  Clonmel might be able for it too, great junior tradition down there.
Really though, merge at least 2 of the dublin clubs (like thats gonna ever happen) and set the cap on wages to income as theyre trying to do in england so no more then (I think) 50% of income goes on wages.  Else you may as well light a fire with the bank notes.  And change the suits at the top of the FAI and EL so they market the league ala the IRFU and the GAA have done for the last 10 years.  EL as a product is not worth buying into.


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## Guest127 (29 Nov 2006)

on the wages front. think that from next season on the max a club can spend on wages is 65% of total income. where that income comes from will probably be debatable. when I first followed Dundalk it was the norm to 'reduce' the size of gates as they were spllit with the away team, but for that past 20 odd years the home team keeps their own gate and pay the officials out of it. so a home gate has to 'last' two weeks, which in the case of Shelbourne obviously wasn't happening.


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## huskerdu (29 Nov 2006)

The gate is still split for cup games which does lead to  a lot of allegations of creative accountancy.


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## huskerdu (29 Nov 2006)

Cuchulainn, if Dundalk are denied their rightful place in the Premier Division, after winning the playoff, it will not be bad luck, it will be futher proof of the Dublin conspiracy against the rest of the country in general and Dundalk in particular. 
You are not showing much of the traditional Dundalk chip on shoulder, I am disappointed.


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## almo (29 Nov 2006)

Husker, the last few seasons, especially the carry on at the top of the club, would go against Dundalk being allowed into a new top flight.  Around the time of the co-op changeover, the club had were approached by a pair of investors from Germany who were heavily involved with Eintracht Frankfurt.  They proposed putting 1million punts into the club and to get this windfall the strings were that they would put in place 4 professionals to run the club (they were buying the marketing and development rights basically).  But it was rejected, despite letters of guarantee from banks in Germany, the sticking point was that the club refused to open the books to show where monies were coming and going.

I do have faith in a pyramid system, it would give a chance to ambitious small clubs and more of an incentive to hang onto good young lads.  But why would anyone bother investing in a league club (or smaller intrmediate or senior club) when there is no movement in it.


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## huskerdu (29 Nov 2006)

I know a lot of what went on, and I think the co-op did untold damage. 
Will we be punished for it for ever........


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## almo (29 Nov 2006)

I was 50/50 in Dundalk and Germany at the time and was involved with hurling in the town, and the nonsense that went on soured a lot of good people, and then the County Board (by accident) fell into success on the back of a League win and lots of gear sales.  It's sad to compare standing on the terrace watching Dundalk struggle against a bunch of Limerick schoolboys while "fans" argued with the Dundalk goalkeeper at the town end, and a night when they replayed Sligo in the cup and the place was packed with people from as far away as Reaghstown!


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## Guest127 (29 Nov 2006)

dont know long you have been away for almo but basically the shed on the far side has been demolished, the terrace move about 20 yards closer to the pitch , carrick road end is now just that - a road- and theres a new bunch of supporters who gather where the shed used to be. this bunch of supporers sing and chant their way through most of the game. hard to believe I know. even in the pouring rain against Waterford. anyway back to the premier. 12 teams. some points allocated for past 4 years performances but this was originally to be 5 years, but Kildare are not in the league 5 years so the Fai changed the criteria to 4 years. which is bad for Dundalk as 5 years ago they were in the premier and won the cup. but that year no longer counts. back to the 12 teams. Rovers will make up for Dublin City. that leaves a straight decision. will Waterford ( and Bray and both be relegated and Dundalk and Galway be promoted) be replaced by either Dundalk or Galway. I wouldn't be surprised if the Fai went around Dundalk and promoted Galway.thats the rumour on the mill anyway. But if that is the case why did Dundalk and Waterford have to play off?
must be getting old Huskerdu. chip falls off on a regular basis but its easy to put back.


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## Glenbhoy (29 Nov 2006)

Shels have a long term lease on Tolka, but have sold an option on the purchase to Ozzie Kilkenny, Ivano Cafolla and Jerry O'Reilly (Coneforth Ltd), they've been keeping the club going through its recent travails.

[broken link removed]


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## almo (29 Nov 2006)

Cuchulainn, I was there (on the outside) in October but have seen photos.  The ground could be a real work of art, and it has to have improved from the broken windows and tarmac banks of old, and the shed was always fun to look at, or even walk by.  The club does have terrific potential, but I wouldn't see Galway go up at it's expense (unless the runours are true) as the Galway public are dreadful for sports (even GAA).  They have a really decent rugby side but they struggle to get a meagre 4,000 crowd, their soccer team can do things but there is a poor attitude from the local council - like when they pulled down all the rugby posters because it was clashing with a Macnas do, very sad.


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## almo (29 Nov 2006)

I couldn't see many Irish millionaires buying a club for their own good, MacAnthony bought Peterborough (to make them a force in English and European football), but weren't Carlisle to have been the same.......I would always hark at the European multi-sport model, but since they're all self-serving it's no point.


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## Guest127 (29 Nov 2006)

are Reading owned by Madejski? and Wigan owe a lot to Whelan. Hence the Madekski and JJB stadiums.


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## auto320 (29 Nov 2006)

almo said:


> I remembered Ollie Byrne saying that if someone walked in with a million euros the club was theirs. But what are Eircom League clubs worth?


 
Sounds interesting, only a million! You wouldn't be long getting that back. Now let me see, say fifty people (that paid in) at the average game at a tenner apiece....


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## Guest127 (30 Nov 2006)

thats Monaghan  you'r talking about, though I did hear complains about Shels attendances this year. would say the average attendance for dundalk's last 5 games was around 2,500 certainly over the 2,000 mark for the rovers, athlone,kilkenny,limerick and waterford matches. still wouldn't be enough to break even without the bars, lotto, sponsorship etc.


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## Guest127 (11 Dec 2006)

So the rumours (rampant since around June) that both Shams and Galway were going to get the two places have been confirmed. I know there was supposed to be a process but the dogs on the streets knew that Galway had been pencilled in from a long way back. Didn't matter where Dundalk came, those two places were already decided. why the play off with waterford united? hoping Dundalk would lose and that would make the fai look good. so the fact that Dundalk finished two places higher than Galway this year counted for nothing. the fact that waterford lost just gave the fai an excuse to relegate them but not  promote the club that beat them. in theory the last 4 years results counted . in those 4 years Galway have played all 4 years in division 1 and waterford most ( if not all in the premier) that fact that waterford lost to dundalk still placed them 1 place above galway this year. no matter which way you look at it it's   pretty obvious that  galway were the fai's choice from a long way back. the process was just a sham.
nothing else to be expected of the fai of course.


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## tml (13 Dec 2006)

apparantly there is some guy outside FAI HQ at the moment protesting and threatening to set himself on fire because Dundalk are not going to be promoted, Merrion Square is full of police, fire brigade and ambulances......


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## car (13 Dec 2006)

john gill, lordy, can you imagine jose mourinho if they dont get into the champs league next year!!! .  
They said it was a can of petrol, although if he came down from dundalk, maybe it was red diesel(is that inflammatory?).

edit: Rumour JG to be on the late late this friday.  Should be good, he tells it like it is, although all the clubs were forewarned what the criteria was gonna be, if the Dundalk comm. couldnt get their house in order, why should that be galways fault who obviously did.


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## almo (14 Dec 2006)

It was John Gill!  Holy god, I;m shocked, I haven't reda that anywhere!  

The FAI were eager to try spread the game out, no point in having 2 teams from a small county in the top flight, better to have someone from a "new" market on board, ie Galway.  But maybe it's only me, but isn't Galway a wasteland for sport?  Or at least sport that involves activity other than hiding stashes or fiddling for tourists (very biased I know).  That Rovers would go up was a given, but Galway, even with Connacht working wonders on and off the field, the local council are determined to kill them off.

Dundalk don't deserve to go up, at present, and it would be better if they had another year to build up a stronger following and financial base.  The whole nonsense over "Gerry Matthews has put a lot of his money into this club" was the same that I heard when they were getting rid of the McQuillans and others who ove the years had spent and made money on the club.

Thank goodness for Ollie that he had a good boss and players, otherwise Shels might be doing a Dundalk and playing in Europe when in the second level domestically!


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## almo (14 Dec 2006)

Okay, saw the pic and read the article, is there any way to get someone of that, well, "girth" to maybe wrap up in a nice concealing club anorak?  What a coward, why didn't he do the deed, and hang onto a couple of board members and John Delaney when doing so!


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## ClubMan (14 Dec 2006)

almo said:


> It was John Gill!  Holy god, I;m shocked, I haven't reda that anywhere!


_JG _was called in as negotiator by the cops. He wasn't the one threatening self immolation.


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## almo (14 Dec 2006)

Okay, it was cold this morning, I was tired, my english is suffering, I misunderstood.  I read that he was raced by Garda escort from Portlaoise to Merrion Sq, which make me wonder, if I take a spin over to the US, douse myself in petrol and say I'm going to make a nice Irish b-b-q unless Nicole Kidman comes for a cuppa, will they get her or will I be gunned down?


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## Guest127 (9 Jan 2007)

so there we have it(    joe duffy today) Shels are bankrupt. Shams have no ground of their own. yet both qualified for a 'premier' league uefa licence. mickey mouse wouldn't get a look in at the fai.


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## almo (12 Jan 2007)

But Shams are a "glamour" side, Shels the european cup run "heroes".

It was interesting to read that Finbarr Flood-plain is in with a group to take over.  And it's even more interesting to read that good old Ollie will sell for the right price and to the right seller.  So I guess it's suppose to make Shels fans more secure that he's using certain hacks from the Indo to tout for business.

The EL is getting more of a joke by the day.  Why isn't there just one league?  Surely 22clubs playing each other twice with 2 feeder leagues (north-south Dublin-Galway line) each sending 2-4 new clubs up each year?


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## Guest127 (12 Jan 2007)

Ollie was on rte the other day and what he was suggesting wasn't a million miles away from the rumours in dundalk a few months ago. ie dublin corpo own tolka but shels have a 99 year lease from 1962 (or thereabouts). tolka is valued at €40m. so ollie will relinquish the tenancy if he shares the €40m with dublin corpo 50:50. a few months ago I heard a rumour that if Dundalk relinquished their tenancy on oriel then it might be possible to come to a settlement wherby dundalkfc would be able to set up on a greenfield site somewhere else. Don't think this is a runner as Gerry Matthews appears to developing the ground with new plans for an indoor centre of some sort on the Ardee Road end of the ground., and he has installed new floodlights, putting in new dressing rooms and that new indoor centre on the Ardee Road of the ground. Hardly the signs that they are thinking of leaving. anybody who knows Dundalk knows that Oriel is in the absolute number 1 locality for location, location, location. ( field of about 1km further on from oriel on the other side of the carrick road sold two years ago for many millions of euro. now a housing development needless to say. anyway we now appear resigned to the first division. but still don't understand how a club who are bankrupt can obtain a premier uefa licence. then again why should it surprise me, after all Shels owed the taxman a small fortune last year and they still got the licence. and by the way during the Shamrock Rovers- Limerick game near the end of the season a Limerick player was hurt and had to be removed from the pitch at Tolka. but there was no stretchers available, so after a long delay they took out a pool table and carried him off on that. and they still got a premier licence? how many dublin based papers reported that? and they still got a premier licence. no ground. no stretchers. its a joke.


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## almo (12 Jan 2007)

You hit the nail on he head cu, Dublin based papers.  The only true notice Dundalk got was when Maxie threatened to set himself ablaze!  Dundalk would be not alone in the Premier now but in europe had the mandarins running the show at the co-op not been so blinkered and scrambling for crumbs, but we all have suffered since!


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## ClubMan (13 Jan 2007)

almo said:


> The EL is getting more of a joke by the day.


As one of the relatively small band of long time die-hard supporters I have to agree with this analysis I'm afraid.


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## almo (13 Jan 2007)

Don't get me wrong clubman, I've been following the league since I was 2 (I was carried by my Uncle into Oriel) and right through the chicken days to now.  I would love to see the EL get a firm financial grip on the game and give homegrown talent a chance to progress.  And with the growing numbers of immigrants there is an even greater talent pool emerging.  But there is a severe lack of ambition, of honest risk taking, of entertainment.  Why they operate 2 leagues when one would make more sense.  Why our clubs simply look to the UK when there is a whole big world out there that can be utilised.  I know that certain people, esp Ollie, have put a lot of time and money into their clubs, but they've also taken a lot out and gathered vultures around them who just take.  I would love to see the Wexford club run on a really good financial business footing, realistic and being innovative.


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## ClubMan (15 Jan 2007)

almo said:


> I know that certain people, esp Ollie, have put a lot of time and money into their clubs, but they've also taken a lot out and gathered vultures around them who just take.


What makes you think that, whatever about time, _Ollie _puts a lot of money into _Shels_?  [broken link removed] more money was going out than in during his tenure in charge. Also - don't forget that not too many clubs (if any) other than _Shels _are run by convicted criminals. In case anybody thinks that this may be defamatory see [broken link removed] for example.


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## Guest127 (15 Jan 2007)

nice one clubman. that article mentions the Donnelly family. Almo might be familiar with them. Afaik Tony Donnelly wanted to pump money into a certain rural club but was given the cold shoulder, and turned to Shels instead. according to that article they are now in north Dublin but they wern't when then.    anyway jailbird or not. bankrupt or not. team or not. they have a premier licence. good article on Wexford in todays Sunday Times.


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## almo (15 Jan 2007)

FAir enough clubman, and I'm in agreement with the money leaking out (read gushing) and I saw first hand the absolute madness that goes on behind the scenes from ticket non-sales to travel stupidity to running out on bills (Ollie and some folks still owe over €2,000 in food and drink bills here), I saw the dubious characters working in the club and running it into the ground.  And need I mention I'm still owed money from Shels almost 3 years after finishing contact with them.  Sure I got thanks and free tickets etc, but when your calls and attempts to meet go unanswered for 3 months you have to wonder.

The Donnelly's put a lot of money into Shels (why were they refused up north?  Was it due to a certain travel/insurance agent?) and were paid back in 2004, and old Mrs. Donnelly was brought (with Tony) to a special dinner the night before the Hajduk game in Dublin.  Before that time (the day before the game in Split) I was asked by Hajduk to investigate the opportunity to form a link with Shels (having not been responded to in 3 previous attempts with Dundalk and missed out on Drogheda and Newry when Alan Williams left the former club), but the behaviour of the Shels people in the exec section (esp one large gentleman) soured the club on them and Ireland.  

I don't believe for a minute Ollie will let go of Shels, or if he gets money he'll wander into another club and take over, maybe Ardee Celtic or Bellurgan could provide Louth with the balance to Dublin.


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## Guest127 (15 Jan 2007)

think that link with travel/insurance was the key allright. history now anyway. got a fairly major tournament named after him and all. cheers


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## ClubMan (15 Jan 2007)

_Ollie's _piece in yesterday's _Sunday Tribune _was hilarious. Almost as funny as his appearances on _Newstalk, Joe Duffy _and _TV3 _in recent weeks.


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## almo (16 Jan 2007)

I always wondered why the tournament was named after him, but at least the family (the ones in question) did fund certain endeavours in the club, and I did feel the way they were treated when the Co-Op came in was a little rough a too tribal Cuchulainn.

Clubman, what is going to be very scary, is that a lot of people who haven't the first idea of the EL or who don't understand the attitude of the man (it's not too long ago that he was lashing out at photographers, punters and other managers - I saw it myself in 2004 at a Pats game when he was restrained by a former club stalwart).  What will it take to buy him out and get him off the scene!


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## almo (16 Jan 2007)

Oh, and where will the €150,000 from Jason Byrne's transfer end up?

Good to see Bohs brought in Neale Fenn, he's a class player and should make up in part for young Ward.  Interesting to see the FAI have gotten an application from Limerick (37 I think they're called) to put a team in the EL.  When will it dawn on Merrion Square that they can put one league of 20 teams and 2 feeder leagues to give the domestic game a boost.  It'd mean 38games, small clubs like Cobh getting visits from Dundalk, Shels, Bohs, Rovers etc meaning more cash at the turnstile, and with a bit of money investde they can scramble up the table in th search for a EUropean spot.  But maybe it's too easy for the FAI to consider.


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## Guest127 (18 Jan 2007)

After reading about Limerick fcs case against the fai ( Limerick 37 and Wexford etc) I now agree with Almo. up to now I thought that for one year only the FAI could run a 21 team (or 22 including one other) and top 12 in premier/ bottom 10  in 1st div following year.. now with only 20 teams I think its worth a try to run a 20 team league with relegation/promotion to/from feeder leagues. feeder league could be on a north south divide. ie one north of galway/dublin and one south. if two teams from say southern area were to be relegated ie cobh and waterford for arguments sake then toss of coin and one of them gets stuck in northern feeder league. a lot of the teams in the feeder leagues would be dublin/leinster based  so not as bad as might appear. but it wont happen. why exactly are limerick being denied a 1st division licence? is it because they have no ground? or the ground they nominated is not up to scratch?


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## almo (18 Jan 2007)

Just under 10 years ago I was living and working in Germany.  I was lucky enough to work with a couple of clubs in Hesse and fom top (Eintracht) to bottom VFB Marburg, there was a general sense of movement in the game.  When I was with them Kickers Offenbach were struggling and in danger of dropping out of the Regionaliga South into the Hesse Liga, while Marburg were fighting to get up into the Hesse Liga.  Marburg went up and Offenbach stayed in the South League, but both were aspiring to rise above themselves.  There is no reason why teams like Mullingar Town, Fanad or such cannot compete well in a regional league and then with the right structure in pace go up to the top division.  It's one reason why a lot of Irish money (investment) goes to the UK, there is a genuine pyramid structure and Peterborough can hope to get to the Championship in 4-5 years, Thurrock into the League 2 and this movement makes the game more interesting.  

If, a decade ago, there was a pyramid in place in Ireland clubs who were genuinely holding their own like Ashtownvilla, Tolka Rovers and even Fanad, would all have had a chance to try proper semi-pro football and increase the appeal of the game.


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## almo (19 Jan 2007)

Reading the papers this morning about Owen Heary handing back the League Trophy, a really sad case.  He was approached to join Hajduk (prelim) 3 years ago but chose to stay with Shels.  In one way it was down to staying with what's safe, on the other hand the money he was on in Shels was almost twice what he'd get (officially) in Croatia.  Now he's a free agent and a couple of years late for a chance to play at a decent level abroad.

On the topic, again, of feeder leagues etc, how many senior clubs in Ireland (non EL) would have decent enough facilities and funds to compete in a regional league and aspire to EL?  I don't know the name of the Northern Irish club who do the cup run and high junior thing but have said that going semi-pro would kill them?  Would that be a fear in Ireland too?


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## ClubMan (19 Jan 2007)

almo said:


> Now he's a free agent


Actually [broken link removed] just signed him.


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## almo (19 Jan 2007)

OKay, I am happy to be corrected.  He's a very good EL player, I only wonder if Bohs will be paying him what he was earning back in 2004 (just under 100,000 bef bonuses)?  What's sad is that Jamie Harris and Dave Rogers are still in limbo, so too Alan Moore, not to mention Steve Williams.  The four players who did so much to bring the club through 2 rounds of competition and give the EL a unifying boost are still worth a punt, especially Williams, I didn't like when he left Dundalk, but he's still better than lining out in Bray (apologies to Bray fans).


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## ClubMan (19 Jan 2007)

almo said:


> OKay, I am happy to be corrected.  He's a very good EL player, I only wonder if Bohs will be paying him what he was earning back in 2004 (just under 100,000 bef bonuses)?


I doubt it.


> What's sad is that Jamie Harris and Dave Rogers


Ah good old "elbows" _Harris _and "hoofer" _Rogers_. Terribly sad alright.


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## Guest127 (19 Jan 2007)

and truth be told if Bohs didn't have dalyer to sell they wouldn't be in a much better position than Shels. afaik from now on a club can only spend 65% of their income on wages. assume this includes the manager, backroom staff etc. which means that in effect unless a club has a good income then players with a 'top' club like Shels might actually be on lower wages than players from say Galway Utd, who by all means have a fairly healthy income stream. does a director putting his hand in his pocket to bail out a club count as income? or must it be income from gates/lotto/bars/race nights etc? half of some clubs income comes from directors' generosity


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## ClubMan (19 Jan 2007)

cuchulainn said:


> and truth be told if Bohs didn't have dalyer to sell they wouldn't be in a much better position than Shels.


Not true. It would be tight and we would have significant debts but at least our _Revenue _payments have generally been up to date and sorted out quickly when they were not. Unlike many other clubs! We also have significant sources of non football related revenue (e.g. the three bars in _Dalymount _and the car parking deal with the _Mater Hospital_) which bring in significant six figure sums each calendar year (not just season!).


> afaik from now on a club can only spend 65% of their income on wages.


 Good - that'll help us not to blow our property sale windfall once the real money starts flowing in! Of course that assumes that the _FAI/eL _actually clarify and enforce their rules for a change...


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## almo (20 Jan 2007)

Dave Rogers is a decent sort, I can still remember the looks on the faces of the Hajduk fans (who'd been calling him a donkey) when he scored the rasper in Tolka, I think he shocked even himself.  And it was Jamie Harris who knocked out 2 teeth from a Hajduk player in a punchup at the end of the game there, priceless!!!!!1

I don't know how they'll enforce the 65% deal, it'll be impossible.  I know tht in Canada Junior hockey clubs are severely restricted but get around it by giving the boys "jobs" (same in Canadian uni's) or someone just happens to "give" them a car.  It goes on in football now but will it get worse with restrictions over payments?


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## Guest127 (2 Feb 2007)

listening to that fai representative with the gorgeous Miriam  tonight filled me with confidence for the future of the league. Not.  He more or less stated that the fai asked the clubs for their books and what more could the fai do. FA would appear to be the answer. So shels are €10million in debt.  at least.  bankrupt in other words. a rose by any other name etc.
crawley town and rotterham in england were deducted 10  points for going into receivership. happened in scotland last year too. will this happen here? no chance. (shels would go straight to court and have it reversed anyway.)
would hate to see shels go to the wall but  they were paying out money they hadn't got. I could drive a roller too on that basis.


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## ClubMan (2 Feb 2007)

I thought that _Apres Match _were doing the _FAI _a disservice in their caricatures of the _FAI _blazers until I caught a bit of _Fran Gavin _in action tonight. Oh dear...


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## almo (4 Feb 2007)

In 2004 Shels, from Ollie's own lips and som of those hanging onto his coattails and from others well placed in the club, admitted that Shels we 1million in debt, they made, well estimated, 4million from their European trips and yet by the end of the year were back 1million in debt.  I know they went on a Chelsea/Man U buying spree, but where did the money go.

Last week the Indo reported they were "according to reports in other newspapers" 12million in the red, how in the name of god can they go so much in debt in such a short space of time.  I know the siphoning off of monies etc and poor admin costs, but 12MILLION!


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## Guest127 (4 Feb 2007)

the fai think they are the bee knees though. and thats all that matters.


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## Z100 (4 Feb 2007)

ClubMan said:


> I thought that _Apres Match _were doing the _FAI _a disservice in their caricatures of the _FAI _blazers until I caught a bit of _Fran Gavin _in action tonight. Oh dear...


 
And he's one of their smoother operators


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## almo (5 Feb 2007)

Should the soccer faithful not rise up and do a Mussolini on the clowns in the FAI?  Surely there'd be more sense in putting someone with a bit of business sense and local feeling in charge.  I am sad to see where they haven't been able ot put anything together that makes sense, sure, give a few grand to each club for promotion - instead of taking control and doing it from HQ!


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## ClubMan (5 Feb 2007)

almo said:


> Should the soccer faithful not rise up and do a Mussolini on the clowns in the FAI?


The last attempt at a fans' representative group, _National League United/NLU_, wasn't too successful if I'm not mistaken. Trying to get individual _eL _clubs and their fans to agree on anything is like herding cats.


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## almo (5 Feb 2007)

I understand the difficulties in it, but you know, I really saw great unity with the real fans when Shels were playing well in 2004, esp the home Hajduk game where I met more Dundalk and Pats, even Bohs, fans than I'd thought existed (joke).  To see them arrive to cheer on Shels, bedecked in ther own colours, was very very heartening, but again this goodwill factor was squandered too quickly.

What's going to happen if Shels are thrown out of the PL, will it be Waterford or Dundalk who go up?  As far as I know Waterford were more in line with qualifications for promotion than Dundalk.


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## ClubMan (5 Feb 2007)

almo said:


> I understand the difficulties in it, but you know, I really saw great unity with the real fans when Shels were playing well in 2004, esp the home Hajduk game where I met more Dundalk and Pats, even Bohs, fans than I'd thought existed (joke).


You should have dropped into the _Dalyer _bars for an antidote to this seeming _eL_ love in.


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## almo (5 Feb 2007)

Okay, I didn't venture that far, I had to leave with the "losers" that night and try to get money out of them.  But it was a good time for Irish football, what happened after......


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## Guest127 (6 Feb 2007)

almo: afaik waterford are in line and not dundalk. makes that (in)famous playoff even more ludicrous. anyway john gill has stated that he has signed players for the first division and that they would struggle in the premier. athlone are the big spenders this year.


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## ClubMan (6 Feb 2007)

I agree that the playoff was ridiculous since it was never a promotion/relegation playoff in the first place in spite of what some people think.


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## Guest127 (6 Feb 2007)

agreed CM. only the Fai could stage a play off that wasn't a play off. the fact that the off the field assessment was and still is a secretive procedure made the whole process a farce. and as for the  off the field assessment, that the fai missed Shels inability to pay players wages, revenue, and have massive debt seems to have eluded the assessors.


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