# Multiple Fatalities Car Crash



## Romulan (25 Aug 2010)

Another day and more young people killed on the road.

Can anyone explain how teenagers can afford to purchase, tax, insure, NCT and run a car at such a young age?  Not to mention driving lessons.

And given the risk to this age group - teenagers/your adults/male - , do parents actually contribute to these costs?

And if they do not contribute directly, do they do so indirectly by not expecting young people to contribute to the house or guaranteeing loans etc?

I recall my father telling me I could have any car I could afford to buy and run and he would not be helping in any way.  He reckoned this would make me more careful.  That and it meant mid 20s before I could afford a car.

Its just plain distressing the number of incidents.


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## villa 1 (25 Aug 2010)

Most teenagers these days are able to do what they want when they want. A lot of parents have forgotten how to supervise/educate their children. Most teenagers these days are interested in drink/drugs/sex and also conning their parents. You can't say boo to a teen nowadays as they have become very disrespectfull to elders. In my day you got a clip around the ear and that was the end of the lip!!
Tragic road fatalities again but you have to ask yourself what was a 17 yr old doing driving a car with other teens in it at 7am in the morning. My condolensces go out to their parents.
In my area the amount of boy/girl racers is incredible. They are barely out of nappies and they're out driving, very poorly in a lot of cases.


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## Protocol (25 Aug 2010)

I am curious as to why or how 4 children would be driving in a car at 7am?

That seems unusual, in my opinion.

There was a fifth person present, maybe they were an adult???


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## ney001 (25 Aug 2010)

villa 1 said:


> . Most teenagers these days are interested in drink/drugs/sex and also conning their parents. You can't say boo to a teen nowadays as they have become very disrespectfull to elders. In my day you got a clip around the ear and that was the end of the lip!!



Bit of a generalization there! .  In the words of Baz Luhrmann " Accept certain inalienable truths: Prices will rise. Politicians will philander. You, too, will get old. And when you do, you'll fantasize that when you were young, prices were reasonable, politicians were noble and children respected their elders" 

That aside, I had a car at 17 (in my 30's now) I got a job at 16 worked weekends and evenings to pay for it - cost me £3000 at the time - paid my own tax, own insurance and all associated costs.  Dad thought me to drive early on - passed my text at 18 I think.  One of the problems here is a lack of garda supervision, particularly in the rural towns.  In the rural stations, they are usually unmanned or partially manned and everybody knows when the gardai are there or out on the roads checking speed, tax etc.  I know of one town where there is one patrol car, when it leaves the station it does the exact same route through the town, up the motorway and back again so everybody knows that once the car leaves the town it will be gone for 20minutes.  (used to be very handy to know for lock-ins on a Friday night).  In my own town a the moment the gardai changeover at 8am and are always sitting in the local garage getting a coffee at 7.45am.  The kids know the routines and know how to avoid ever coming into contact with a garda.    The second problem is our ridiculous un-policed license system i.e get a provisional and hop in to the car, fail your test and get straight back into the car!.  

Absolutely devastating news today - two brothers as well, am gutted for the parents.


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## villa 1 (25 Aug 2010)

Yes your'e right. It is a bit of a generalisation but it's not far from the truth. Fair play for your car test success at 18 but the are many provisional licensed kids driving like lunatics on our roads today. In my area they go racing on a dual carriageway, and usually throw in a couple of dounuts for good measure, in the early hours of the morning. These cars a driven screaming flat out and it's only a matter of time before the young driver will loose control, flick over the central median and kill an innocent motorist coming in the opposite direction. I don't hear to many sirens at night!!


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## pixiebean22 (25 Aug 2010)

I would like to point out that having lived in Kerry when I was a teenager and given that there is no public transport the majority of teenagers are often left with no choice but to learn to drive as early as possible.  My parents refused to be treated as a taxi service (and rightly so) so my siblings and I all learned to drive at a young age.  I know some might say that cycling/walking could have been an option but given that we were easily an hour-two hour walk from the nearest town and that you would be using narrow winding roads to get there cycling/walking was not the best option.  

Yes, teenagers are in an "at risk" group when it comes to road safety etc but take into account the fact that a lot of them have no other choice.  My siblings and I learned to drive to attend various things including school related activities.  

Maybe the reason there was so many of them in the car is because they were car pooling.

I think the real issue is the fact that there is so little done for public transport in rural areas.


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## Caveat (25 Aug 2010)

I don't hold out much hope for improvement or change.

The sad fact is IMO that incidents like these are merely the consequence of arrogance, bad attitude, disrespect - whatever. There will always be an element of teenagers like this. This will never change. It just so happens that being in charge of a car and taking risks/showing off has potentially much worse consequences than swaggering down the street and being rude to people on a Saturday afternoon. But both stem from the same arrogance.

_"I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on_
_frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond_
_words... When I was young, we were taught to be discreet and_
_respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise_
_[disrespectful] and impatient of restraint"_ 

Not a contemporary sociologist of politician, the above is attributed to 
_Hesiod_, 8th century BC.


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## Homer (25 Aug 2010)

pixiebean22 said:


> My parents refused to be treated as a taxi service (and rightly so) so my siblings and I all learned to drive at a young age.



I hear what you're saying, but I know that when my children were teenagers I was always happy to act as a taxi service if it meant I was sure they would get home safely.  But then again, I live in Dublin and it was maybe once or twice a week.  If I lived miles from nowhere and it meant driving around all day every day, I might have had a different attitude.


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## thedaras (25 Aug 2010)

Very sad news to hear of so many young people who died and those injured,god love the families.
A poster made reference to the age of those involved ,I dont know how old the driver was,but would it be an idea that anyone aged under say 21 should not be allowed carry more than one passenger?
Probably unenforceable..and unrealistic..but I often hear of fatal car crashes with several young people in the car,perhaps this would go some way to solving this problem.
If we could just actually enforce the laws we already have ,that would help too.

I agree that for those who live in the country that in most cases a car is an essential.


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## Green (26 Aug 2010)

pixiebean22 said:


> I think the real issue is the fact that there is so little done for public transport in rural areas.


 
I dont wish to drag the thread off topic but while rural public transport is an issue the more important issue here is planning. If we want to have public services then, in my view, we have to look very closely at where people live. Given the current dispersed nature of development and one off houses in Ireland, it is impossible to provide any meaningful level of public service. Eventually, and we may not like it, we will have to make hard choices in Ireland between where we live and the level of public services we receive.


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## pixiebean22 (26 Aug 2010)

Completely agree with YOBR.

And again, not to drag the thread off topic, there are thousands of houses dotted around Kerry (and I'm sure other counties in Ireland) and it would be really impossible to provide a proper level of buses say, you would probably have hundreds of bus routes, some travelling to just one house situated way off the beaten track.


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## peelaaa (26 Aug 2010)

The bad roads have a big part to play in fatalities like this. 

It only takes less than a second lack of concentration and your tyres can be dragged into a muddy grass verge.

Why not fit roads with kerbs between the tarmac and the verge like they do in more civilised countries. I dread my kids starting to drive here.

When I began driving I made mistakes and learnt from them. However I learnt in a different country where the roads are better condition.


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## pixiebean22 (26 Aug 2010)

Peelaaa that is obviously something different authorities have considered but a lot of the roads (and again I will say Kerry because I have actually lived there) in Kerry are privately owned but are used by all public traffic.  Where my parents live in particular the road to our house is a private road and either side of it there is land belonging to many different families in the area so to have it resurfaced etc you have to get everyone in agreement and everyone willing to shell out for the costs involved.  Now I know this may not be the case everywhere but there are plenty like it around Kerry.

I would also point out though that it was revealed this morning that the crash happened on the "Killarney to Mallow road on the N72 at Carrigeen".


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## Shawady (26 Aug 2010)

This might sound a tad over the top, but what about limiting the engine size for young drivers?
If they drove a car with a very small engine it might cut down on accidents due to speeding.


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## micmclo (26 Aug 2010)

I don't know if limited engine size would solve anything.

Most of us learned in the family car.
Do we get people to buy another small engined car and leave it aside for their sons and daughters?

Anyway, such a system already exists in motorcycles, pass your test and you are restricted for two years


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## Mpsox (26 Aug 2010)

YOBR said:


> Eventually, and we may not like it, we will have to make hard choices in Ireland between where we live and the level of public services we receive.


 
That exists already, if you live in a rural area, you have limited access to public transport (if any), have to travel farther for medical treatement, social services etc.


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## Green (26 Aug 2010)

Mpsox said:


> That exists already, if you live in a rural area, you have limited access to public transport (if any), have to travel farther for medical treatement, social services etc.


 
I agree, it does exists but I would like a situation whereby that inequality is reduced if people lived closer together..


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## Firefly (26 Aug 2010)

I think the issue of public transport is a red herring. Whilst we do not yet know of the circumstance of this particular accident, most if not all young male related deaths on the roads are caused by excessive speed...if they drove at normal speeds and carefully, we would of course have _some_ accidents but not these type of horrendous accidents. i.e. Older people in rural areas don't have public transport either but do not seem to have these types of accidents. It's more of a need for speed rather than a need for public transport IMO.


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## Chris (26 Aug 2010)

It is indeed tragic, but lack of public transport, road conditions or speed have nothing to do with the high rate of road deaths in this country. As already mentioned providing "adeuquate" public transport in rural areas is next to impossible, given the remoteness and sparse population of some ares. I agree that road conditions in this country have a lot to wish for, but drivers have to adjust their driving to the conditions that prevail, whether it be bad surfaces or bad weather.
Speed is the biggest red herring. It is constantly being branded by the RSA as the "biggest killer", and if only we all reduced our speed by 10% more lives would be saved. If speed were really a problem when it comes to road deaths then Germany would have to have by far the highest rate of road deaths, which it doesn't. Another example is Sweden, which has one of lowest road death rates; it is said by anti-speed campainers that it is due to strict speed limits and enforcement that Sweden has such safe roads. But this completely ignores the fact that for most of the year you cannot drive at anywhere near the speedlimits. 
What does make a big difference in both Germany and Sweden is their driver eduction systems. Road safety and rules of the road are taught to school children. Learner drivers are only allowed to drive with an instructor in a specially fitted instructors car; only once they pass a written test after about a dozen theory hours, and after taking specialised lessons for motorway, country road and night time driving, do learners get to do the driving test. And only after passing the test are they alowed to drive alone. Not sure about Sweden, but in Germany a newly qualified driver is only allowed half the normal penalty point in the first 2 years to encourage better driver behaviour.
Driver education in this country is pretty abismal; maybe not the worst in Europe, but I am absolutely against allowing learner drivers on the road without a qualified instructor. I believe the reason that the driver education system is not being completely overhauled is for political reasons. As soon as it was announced a few years ago that L drivers who were not accompanied by a qualified driver would be heavily fined, there was public outcry. Imagine what people would be saying if the L plate was gotten rid of altogether.
Speed is not the biggest killer, it is drivers' incompetence and ignorance when it comes to adjusting their driving to the prevailing conditions.


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## pixiebean22 (26 Aug 2010)

If only half the laws in this country were actually enforced.

A system like what Chris describes in Germany would be a stepping stone at least.


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## Ciaraella (26 Aug 2010)

Chris said:


> Another example is Sweden, which has one of lowest road death rates; it is said by anti-speed campainers that it is due to strict speed limits and enforcement that Sweden has such safe roads. But this completely ignores the fact that for most of the year you cannot drive at anywhere near the speedlimits.


 
This would therefore reduces the instances of speeding.
Personally i do think that speed is one of the main causes of road death, that and people not using seat belts.

On drivetime yesterday a fire officer that attended the scene said that the road was in good condition and poor road condition did not seem to be a factor in the crash.

To my ind if the road was in good condition, alcohol was not a factor and there were no other cars involved then speed would seem the reason for the crash, or perhaps the driver falling asleep?
I did not hear if any of the victims were wearing seatbelts.

I'd hasten to add i'm not apportioning blame, just looking for reasons, my heart goes out to the families.
I thought the priest who attended the scene spoke very well on tubridy's show this morning, you could hear how devastated he was to have seen first hand the pointless waste of life.


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## Firefly (26 Aug 2010)

How about attaching the wheelchair symbol above our speed limit road signs? A subliminal appraoch?


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## Chris (26 Aug 2010)

Ciaraella said:


> This would therefore reduces the instances of speeding.


Only during the winter months, and the rate of road deaths does not go down in Sweden in the winter months. People in Sweden disobey speed limits just like people do in other countries. But from what a Swedish and Finnish colleague have told I gather that their driving schools are excellent. Lots of time spent on instructions on adjusting speed to the prevailing conditions. 
It is dangerous driving that is killing young people, and yes in a lot of accidents vastly excessive speeds are the cause. But these problems are not going to be solved by reducing speed limits or setting up speed traps on single/dual carriageways to catch out someone doing 120 in a 100 zone. Better education and active policing of dangerous driving is what is needed, but these are politically unpopular and very expensive respectively, so I wouldn't hold my breath for a serious attempt at making a change.



Ciaraella said:


> Personally i do think that speed is one of the main causes of road death, that and people not using seat belts.



I agree with you on the seat belts. The amount of times I have had to ask friends and colleagues to put on their seat belt when they get into my car is ridiculous.


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## roker (27 Aug 2010)

I am amazed at the amount of tyre marks from doing doughnuts when I drive down some of the back roads usually at the junctions, and main roads, these must be done in the early hours because I have never seen anyone making them. Is this not showing off?


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## Romulan (27 Aug 2010)

I watched a L driver run 2 red lights in succession today.  Still amazed.

Its down to speed and a lack of will to ruthlessly enforce the law.

I know the cars/drivers that are high risk in my area from simple observation, its not rocket science.  There is no reason why these drivers could not be proactively addressed -the state intervenes in other areas, health for example where people's behaviour puts them at risk.

I see no reason why drivers in statistically proven high risk categories can not be invited down to the local scrap merchant to watch their seized car being crushed in cases where the amass X penalty points in Y time.

Uproar initially yes but not long before the message is understood.


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## Ciaraella (30 Aug 2010)

I don't think people will ever learn...

[broken link removed]


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## Complainer (30 Aug 2010)

How many of us go to the bother of reporting incidents of dangerous driving to the Gardai?


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## Caveat (30 Aug 2010)

Complainer said:


> How many of us go to the bother of reporting incidents of dangerous driving to the Gardai?


 
Well I know I'll be accused of paranoia but basically I wouldn't trust the gardaí with my info.


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## Yachtie (30 Aug 2010)

Complainer said:


> How many of us go to the bother of reporting incidents of dangerous driving to the Gardai?


 
I tried to do it once in Co Waterford. I was driving from Dublin to Cork (the scenic route) and was in one of three cars which were nearly ran off the road at the end of the climbing lane. Some lunatic came up behind us with high beams on at ridiculous speed and then decided to pass us all out about 10m before the end of the lane (which is very clearly marked and signed). 

I took his / her reg plate and rang 999. I explained where I was (didn't know exactly but had a pretty good idea and knew which was the next village / town in front) and what happened. I also gave the make, model, colour and the reg no of the car. Then the person on the other end of the line told me that there wasn't enough time for the patrol car get get out on the road and stop the car in question and there was no pint notifying the next garda station as the driver *may* turn off before the second town. IMHO these are fair points but thought there was a bit of 'ah it's late at night and we can't really be bothered'.


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## Complainer (30 Aug 2010)

Caveat said:


> Well I know I'll be accused of paranoia but basically I wouldn't trust the gardaí with my info.



Could you expand on this? Are you concerned that they might then target you as some kind of trouble-maker?



Yachtie said:


> I tried to do it once in Co Waterford. I was driving from Dublin to Cork (the scenic route) and was in one of three cars which were nearly ran off the road at the end of the climbing lane. Some lunatic came up behind us with high beams on at ridiculous speed and then decided to pass us all out about 10m before the end of the lane (which is very clearly marked and signed).
> 
> I took his / her reg plate and rang 999. I explained where I was (didn't know exactly but had a pretty good idea and knew which was the next village / town in front) and what happened. I also gave the make, model, colour and the reg no of the car. Then the person on the other end of the line told me that there wasn't enough time for the patrol car get get out on the road and stop the car in question and there was no pint notifying the next garda station as the driver *may* turn off before the second town. IMHO these are fair points but thought there was a bit of 'ah it's late at night and we can't really be bothered'.



Indeed, these are fair points. What I've done for a few incidents that happened while cycling is to report them to the Garda TrafficWatch line (1890-205805), and tell them that you are prepared to give a formal statement. You'll get a call from the relevant station, and you'll be invited to give a formal statement. Once you give the statement, the investigating Garda will follow up with the other party, and then make a report. The Inspector (or the DPP for more serious offences) decides whether to prosecute.

Obviously, I don't do this for every chancer that I see breaking a red light, but I do it when I see serious offences that put me or other cyclists at unnecessary risk.


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## Boyd (31 Aug 2010)

Complainer said:


> Obviously, I don't do this for every chancer that I see breaking a red light, but I do it when I see serious offences that put me or other cyclists at unnecessary risk.



I assume you report both drivers _and _other cyclists?


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## Caveat (31 Aug 2010)

Complainer said:


> Could you expand on this? Are you concerned that they might then target you as some kind of trouble-maker?


 
Partly that, and partly that I would be concerned that my contact details would be passed on to the offender - it has happened before.


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## Complainer (31 Aug 2010)

username123 said:


> I assume you report both drivers _and _other cyclists?


I've never managed to get the reg number of a cyclist! To be honest, I've seen lots of rule-breaking by cyclists, but I've never had my safety threatened by another cyclist. I do have occasional 'little chats' with other cyclists from time to time, which is probably as much as I can reasonably do.

Funnily enough, I hadn't used the TrafficWatch number for ages until today, when I met a lady in an SUV coming the wrong way down a narrow single-lane one-way road. I got a call back from the local station, so I'll be giving my formal statement on Friday. Maybe she'll just have to take the long way round in future.


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## fizzelina (31 Aug 2010)

7 months ago I reported an incident of dangerous driving for the first time ever, it was _that _bad that I could not let it go unreported.....Anyway I popped into garda station, gave outline details, got a call back to go in again and give statement, when I went in to give the statement they said it was a state vehicle and sure probably not worth taking a statement. I insisted they should indeed take a statement and asked what dept it was registered to, they said Revenue/Customs so I commented that Revenue don't get official emergency call outs and should abide by usual rules of the road. I gave a formal statement. I heard nothing since. I am probably naive assuming it will go to court and I will say my peace in court and someone will be accountable for their dangerous driving. Such a rigmarole no wonder people don't bother reporting cars, the guards don't really want to know imo.


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## Complainer (31 Aug 2010)

fizzelina said:


> 7 months ago I reported an incident of dangerous driving for the first time ever, it was _that _bad that I could not let it go unreported.....Anyway I popped into garda station, gave outline details, got a call back to go in again and give statement, when I went in to give the statement they said it was a state vehicle and sure probably not worth taking a statement. I insisted they should indeed take a statement and asked what dept it was registered to, they said Revenue/Customs so I commented that Revenue don't get official emergency call outs and should abide by usual rules of the road. I gave a formal statement. I heard nothing since.


Why not give the Garda a call and chase him up? Or write to your local Supt asking what happened? I know you shouldn't have to do this, but ...


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## dereko1969 (31 Aug 2010)

I would definitely follow up and drop a mention of the Garda Ombudsman into the conversation if you're getting nowhere.
http://www.gardaombudsman.ie/


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## aristotle (1 Sep 2010)

I think that as part of "driver education" in schools students should be shown the real consequences of driving dangerously. I don't think they actually think about consequences, I know I didn't and I wasn't really a dangerous driver at all.

They should be shown graphic images of the results of car crashes and the devastation it brings to families and friends.


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## Complainer (1 Sep 2010)

fizzelina said:


> 7 months ago I reported an incident of dangerous driving for the first time ever, it was _that _bad that I could not let it go unreported.....Anyway I popped into garda station, gave outline details, got a call back to go in again and give statement, when I went in to give the statement they said it was a state vehicle and sure probably not worth taking a statement. I insisted they should indeed take a statement and asked what dept it was registered to, they said Revenue/Customs





Complainer said:


> Why not give the Garda a call and chase him up? Or write to your local Supt asking what happened? I know you shouldn't have to do this, but ...



And/or write to the Chairperson of Revenue and ask them to take action internally.



Caveat said:


> Partly that, and partly that I would be concerned that my contact details would be passed on to the offender - it has happened before.



Very disappointing to think that people won't stand up and be counted in situations like this. I guess if a case goes to court, then all details are in the public domain anyway.


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