# Freemen of the Land - Irish Times May 17, 2013



## Setanta12 (17 May 2013)

*Lawyers advise against use of groups who use "freeman of the land arguments" - The Irish Times*

The Irish Times has an article today regarding this nonsense.  I entirely completely accept it as nonsense.

I even see that a contributor at the foot of the article  provides the usual less-than-weighty counter-argument , 'Well, they would say that, wouldn't they?' defence.  Interestingly as part of her answer she capitalises 'BAR' (as in to have passed the Bar).   This is another example of the nonsense that Freemen espouse - the capitalisation of certain words, either noting they have some form of power or have some other meaning .... ....

The mind boggles with this lunacy, and I am oceans away from my central question;

I did think that all law had been based at its very simplest terms as contract-law, the 'software' if you like that allows societies to function.  Rousseau spoke of 'General Will', and I always like that idea.  I'm not for one second advocating the nonsense that is Freemen  ... etc but are the two concepts reconciable ?  (I also accept Rousseau was off his rocker in other areas, and the 'General  Will' idea was abused in the '30's)


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## DrMoriarty (17 May 2013)

I've been knocking around ol' Jean-Jacques for longer than I care to admit and am always amazed (and delighted) by the sheer variety of conflicting interpretations of his thought. He's been labelled a totalitarian, a democrat, a reactionary, a progressive, an individualist, a collectivist, a conservative and an apostle of revolution. He also tends to get 'blamed', a little anachronistically, for political and social experiments that happened long after his time, and his more radical pronouncements taken out of context and/or hijacked inappropriately (ever since Robespierre!)

His concept of the general will is the subject of an interesting article by Philip J. Kain called 'Rousseau, the General Will, and Individual Liberty', _History of Philosophy Quarterly_ Vol. 7, No. 3 (Jul., 1990), pp. 315-334. ( on JSTOR, if you have access?)

Or, for a simpler take on this particular conundrum, see this short piece by Anne Deneys-Tunney in the _Guardian _(Rousseau would be turning in his grave...)


> Simply put, [the general will] is a form of association in which an individual alienates himself completely to the general will, and therefore regains his freedom in a political form. This of course has been criticised: some say it leads directly to dictatorship. Others, like Louis Althusser, say it is based on the premise that the people enter into a contract with nobody else but themselves – a logical impossibility.
> 
> However, Rousseau believed that in the form of the general will, the alienation of man would transform itself into freedom – this makes him nothing less than the inventor of modern dialectics, uniting the opposing concepts of nature (or freedom) and society (or contract), in their own opposition. All of Rousseau's philosophy is an attempt to find a solution to the problem of alienation. For Rousseau, the only thing that made humans different from animals is his free will, something constantly placed in danger whenever man enters into society.
> 
> As a revolutionary thinker, Rousseau understood that the general will, or the will of the people, should be sovereign – and that is the catch. It is here where we regain our freedom inside social organisation. Only the general will – general interest as opposed to private interest – guarantees man his autonomy. No society can be free unless individuals understand that the general will or general interest should prevail over their own individual one.


Like, totalitarianly, man.


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## Setanta12 (17 May 2013)

@ DrMoriarty
"As a revolutionary thinker, Rousseau understood that the general will, or the will of the people, should be sovereign – and that is the catch. It is here where we regain our freedom inside social organisation. Only the general will – general interest as opposed to private interest – guarantees man his autonomy. No society can be free unless individuals understand that the general will or general interest should prevail over their own individual one" 

Thanks for this. Does sum it up, and the differences between it and Freemen nonsense nicely.  

@ajapale
Two things; 
1-I wasn't complaining - just drawing attention to the capitalisation of the word 'Bar' to read 'BAR' which in of itself has significance amongst Freemen reading her comment, which is lost to non-Freemen readers.
2-Interrobang on picking me up for my punctuation.


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## Mrs Vimes (19 May 2013)

Hi Kildavin,

BAR is short for "British Accredited Registry" in the parallel universe these people inhabit. It's the list of lawyers who have signed up to the conspiracy, you see.

There's a good article on rationalwiki.org, and a thread on Boards that gives me regular giggles, especially when the crazies post on it.


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## Brendan Burgess (22 May 2013)

The RationalWiki article is excellent. It would be funny if it wasn't so frustrating that people who believe in it are having their lives ruined. 

I hadn't understood their obsession with admiralty law until I read this 



> They see admiralty law as being the law of commerce, the law of owner_ship_, citizen_ship_,  and indeed anything else ending in "-ship."  They see evidence of this  in various nautical-sounding terms used in court, such as "dock," "birth  (berth) certificate," "-ship" suffixes and any other fancy word they  think might have a vaguely naval sound.
> 
> ...
> When judges leave the courtroom, Freemen will attempt to claim common  law authority and then attempt to dismiss the charges themselves, often  with a cry of "ship abandoned" or "man overboard.



Don't forget that one of their members, Ben Gilroy, finished 4th in the recent by-election ahead of Labour. 

Brendan


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## DB74 (23 May 2013)

Are you sure that they are one-and-the-same Brendan

I didn't see any mention of Freeman rubbbish on the Direct Democracy website, although I only had a brief look around it.

http://directdemocracyireland.ie/


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## Brendan Burgess (23 May 2013)

Check out this interview. I am assuming that it has not beed edited to discredit him. Other Freemen defend the interview, so it doesn't look as if it's edited. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eO1l_MBC5HQ

Early on he denies being a freeman and denies ever having heard of them, but in a radio interview some time earlier he says 

"Legal is something legislators write. Lawful agrees with the law of the land. There is a huge difference.
 I sat down with a barrister and told her that acts and statutes don't apply to me unless I want them to apply to me 

(interviewer) "When I was giving the talks alongside Darryl O'Dea I explained that  a democracy was where 51% agree to a law. But a Republic is where 67% of the people pass a law. 
...
A Sovereign Republic is where in a 100 man island where 99 vote yes, it's a law for all of them and it's not for the one guy who voted  vote no, that is a true sovereign republic" 
Ben Gilroy: That is correct"

Sounds like a Freeman to me.

And listen to this video on the freeman website 

[broken link removed]

At 6.54 he explains the law. "It's legal but it's not  lawful" He repeats it three times.

( By the way, the guy he was defending had apparently never missed a payment until the 1 July 2006. On the 19th July Ulster Bank started repossession proceedings.  This is nonsense.  Even if they had applied to repossess, the court would not have given a repossession order for a late payment. He is simply not telling the full story.)


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## DB74 (24 May 2013)

Yeah seems fairly damning anyway. I wonder would he have finished 4th in the By-election if people knew he supported the Freeman ideology.


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## Delboy (24 May 2013)

he got 1,568 1st preference votes....6.5%...so that puts 4th place in context


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## Brendan Burgess (5 Jul 2013)

I saw Ben Gilroy on the news last night tearing up the Allsops property catalogue.

You can see him nodding sagely in this very, very funny, clip

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXqIbWacFRQ


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## Crugers (5 Jul 2013)

Poor old Constance Markievicz...
 It must have been a very slow painful death for "him" - finally succumbing on 15th July 1927!


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## Betsy Og (5 Jul 2013)

the most bewildering thread I've ever read on this site!!


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## Brendan Burgess (5 Jul 2013)

It's a bit like Fawlty Towers. On watching it again,, you see bits you missed. 

Pause it in midstream and the expression on Gilroy's face is very funny.

here is the full text 

"Constant Markievicz gave up _his _life to enable us to eradicate suppression, taxation, eviction, criminality" 

Oliver Callan wouldn't be this funny.

Does anyone know who Tom D'Arcy is?


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## Delboy (5 Jul 2013)

Jerry Beades is on Joe Duffy now...don't listen if you don't want your blood to boil.
He's going opening an office on Capel St.
He did'nt take part in the nationalistic stuff yesterday but he's just after quoting Parnell.

Tom D'arcy is a former taxi driver who set up a union. Mad socialist so he was.
Became a property developer and as he said yesterday, he was a roaring capitalist.
Now that he can't pay back his speculative debts, he's resorted to socialism (and confused nationalism too judging by his piece yesterday) again and want debts cancelled/forgiven.

[broken link removed]

only in Ireland will folk like this get so much media coverage...only in Ireland would the Gardai have stood by yesterday and not intervened while the auction was called off


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## Brendan Burgess (5 Jul 2013)

> Now that he can't pay back his speculative debts, he's resorted to  socialism (and confused nationalism too judging by his piece yesterday)



So would you describe him as a national socialist?


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## Brendan Burgess (5 Jul 2013)

> only in Ireland will folk like this get so much media coverage..



Are you sure? 

If a big auction got called off in the UK due to protests, I think it would feature on the news. 

It was a news item, whether you like what happened or not.

The nationalism line is mad. Allsops did us all a favour by having these auctions and establishing a realistic price level for properties.   They seem very straight up , unlike our own native Irish auctioneers.


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## Delboy (5 Jul 2013)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Are you sure?
> 
> If a big auction got called off in the UK due to protests, I think it would feature on the news.
> 
> ...



Ok, so the stopping of an auction would make the news. But the guys who did it or the others on their side of the argument would'nt be given near every day access to the National Broadcaster, with their views mostly unchallenged, as is the case in this place.
To quote another website where there was a discussion on New Beginnings etc appearing on a certain radio show regularly
"Pat Kenny was on the Ross Maguire/David Hall show again today" !!!!


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## Delboy (5 Jul 2013)

Brendan Burgess said:


> So would you describe him as a national socialist?



He's got a long way to go to match another national socialist I remember reading about!!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism


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## Brendan Burgess (6 Jul 2013)

Delboy said:


> "Pat Kenny was on the Ross Maguire/David Hall show again today" !!!!



That is absolutely brilliant. 

Here is the source - Nosy Parker on The Pin

http://www.thepropertypin.com/viewtopic.php?p=717226&sid=c28ecc1ec7bd4a0de2ced276b6cba4f0#p717226


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## AgathaC (6 Jul 2013)

I saw the news that night but didn't catch who had 'given up his life' until I watched the clip. You couldn't make that stuff up .


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## Brendan Burgess (6 Jul 2013)

He sounds so confident and so credible 

Here he is speaking about taking criminal charges against some bank, presumably AIB to whom he owes €17m 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-FPv650hvE

He talks about his case on TNS radio here. It's 24 minutes long. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjkrJDkdP2s


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## Brendan Burgess (10 Dec 2014)

Where is Constant Markievicz  when you need him? 

*Bank seeks to enforce repossession order over European election candidate*


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## Delboy (10 Dec 2014)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Where is Constant Markievicz  when you need him?
> 
> *Bank seeks to enforce repossession order over European election candidate*



New Beginnings are indeed very busy...we have Vincent P here on this big case
(here's what a Myra Manor house looks like when completed, though I understand Darcy's was only partially finished and went sale agreed in 2013 at a last known of asking of 595k, but hasn't shown up on the PPR as yet
[broken link removed]

and Ross over with the O'Donnells and their kids trying to keep the mansion in Dalkey
http://www.independent.ie/irish-new...ownership-of-30m-killiney-house-30249467.html

New Beginnings- just trying to keep ordinary people in their average family homes!


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## Brendan Burgess (11 Dec 2014)

Delboy said:


> New Beginnings- just trying to keep ordinary people in their average family homes!



Hang on a moment. 

Both these guys are barristers who earn a living from the law. 

I doubt if either of these clients are clients of New Beginnings.  I would imagine that the clients are paying well for their services. 

Brendan


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