# Rental income questions



## Eddie Peters (7 Sep 2015)

I would appreciate confirmation on some/any of the following.

1.  Pre-rental expenses are not allowable, but white goods can be estimated based on current market value.

2.  Taxable rental income is the gross rental income minus expenses plus capital allowances at  12.5% over 8 years.

3.  USC is charged on rental income after capital allowances and before expense deductions.

4.  Assuming taxed on higher tax rate, then for Jan to Dec 2014, the taxable rental income will incur 52% tax (41% income tax + 4% PRSI + 7% USC) in 2015.

5.  Rental deposit payments are not included in tax returns.

6.  75% of mortgage interest is deducted from the gross rental income if registered with the PRTB - costing €90 if registered within the month of tenancy; or €180 retrospectively after one month. How is a retrospective application made e.g. if tenants have moved on, are PPS numbers and signatures still required.

7. Mortgage protection policy payments are allowable for rental tax income purposes.

8.  An overall rental loss will incur 4% PRSI + USC charge (if mortgage interest, expenses and capital allowances exceed rental income),

9.  Rental allowance is paid to occupier regardless if not used to pay for rental property occupied.

10.  Preliminary tax is required if rental profit exceeds €3174 and is based on the income paid for the previous year.

11.  A loss on one Irish rental property can be off-set against another Irish rental property.

12.  An audit by Revenue will require expense receipts for the previous four years.

13.  After six months of occupancy, a tenant is allowed to stay 112 days in the premises after notice given by owner.

14.  Tenants may occupy a property without paying rent until a decision has been made by the PRTB.

15.  Property tax is not an allowable rental expense.

16.  Water tax (when paid by landlord) is an allowable expense.

17.  When a tenant vacates a property, expenses can be claimed while a replacement tenant is being sought.

18.  When making a tax return, savings are liable for dirt tax + USC.

19. If lump sums have been paid against the mortgage, then mortgage protection policy payments can be reduced.

20.  There is absolutely no government incentive to let a property or to save for the future.

Thanks in advance.


----------



## T McGibney (7 Sep 2015)

Is this an exam?


----------



## Eddie Peters (7 Sep 2015)

Sorry. I know it sounds like an exam It's only a few general questions that property investors may be able to confirm.


----------



## Fella (7 Sep 2015)

So what your saying is property investment is not worth it , I'd love to do a comparison between direct property investment and investing in a REIT , have you considered REIT's as an alternative , when I am not so busy and move away from my current job/hobby I will certainly do such studies.


----------



## Eddie Peters (7 Sep 2015)

Thanks for the feedback Fella. I'm not really interested in the merits of alternative investment strategies. Simply posting some basic questions that property investors may be able to throw some light on


----------



## Gerard123 (7 Sep 2015)

Eddie Peters said:


> Simply posting some basic questions


Agree.  Suggest an accountant or tax advisor needed.


----------



## Eddie Peters (7 Sep 2015)

Thanks Gerard123, Fellla and T mcgibney for your suggestions. I can't see why I would employ an accountant or tax advisor to answer fairly basic questions.


----------



## Gordon Gekko (7 Sep 2015)

Eddie Peters said:


> Thanks Gerard123, Fellla and T mcgibney for your suggestions. I can't see why I would employ an accountant or tax advisor to answer fairly basic questions.



If they're that basic, why don't you know the answers? I'm all for helping people, but you're taking the proverbial with that list. Pay a professional and get on with it.


----------



## Branz (7 Sep 2015)

At least 3 of them are wrong

To help you with it:

One of them is a prime number.
one of them is before no 12.
If I add the first and second wrong ones I get the number of the third wrong one.
if I subtract the first one from the last one I get the number of the second wrong one.
six times the first one equals 
the second wrong one multiplied by (the third wrong one minus the first wrong one) = 144


.


----------



## DB74 (7 Sep 2015)

ircoha said:


> At least 3 of them are wrong
> 
> To help you with it:
> 
> ...



Ha Ha


----------



## Eddie Peters (8 Sep 2015)

Apologies for trying to stimulate discussion on the property investment forum of Askaboutmoney.
Thanks for the insightful comments.


----------



## stephnyc (8 Sep 2015)

@Eddie Peters - I cant help you, but you sound like you have thought this through, and if we could get clarification, it could end up as a truly helpful Key Post for all those considering renting out a property (whether by choice or not). 

Hopefully some experienced posters will come along soon


----------



## Bronte (8 Sep 2015)

1.  Pre-rental expenses are not allowable, but white goods can be estimated based on current market value.

_Correct on both counts.  The white goods and other furniture are to be depreciated over 8 years._

2.  Taxable rental income is the gross rental income minus expenses plus capital allowances at  12.5% over 8 years.

_Can't remember offhand._

3.  USC is charged on rental income after capital allowances and before expense deductions.

_There can be USC in some circumstances, but also can't remember exactly how it's charged.  It's just another tax to deter us investors, the ones they could really really do with, but we're the baddy landlords.  Evil monsters who actually house people, in good accommodation in my case, if you don't mind my saying so.  _

4.  Assuming taxed on higher tax rate, then for Jan to Dec 2014, the taxable rental income will incur 52% tax (41% income tax + 4% PRSI + 7% USC) in 2015.

_You'll hit the higher income tax rate if you've other income.  Adding up to around 50% when you add in the PRSI nd USC._

5.  Rental deposit payments are not included in tax returns.

_Of course, it's not an income, you have to pay it back !_

6.  75% of mortgage interest is deducted from the gross rental income if registered with the PRTB - costing €90 if registered within the month of tenancy; or €180 retrospectively after one month. How is a retrospective application made e.g. if tenants have moved on, are PPS numbers and signatures still required.

_Yes to 75%, yes you must be restered, those fees sound correct.  Retrospective can be done, no idea how people manage this without PRSI nos.  Signatures are not needed, it can be done online.  I also know for some cases no PRSI is needed (asylum seekers of people new in the country)_

7. Mortgage protection policy payments are allowable for rental tax income purposes.

_Yes, as long at the policy known as term insurance - the cheap ones -  or one that does not include any other benefit (like savings plan)_

8.  An overall rental loss will incur 4% PRSI + USC charge (if mortgage interest, expenses and capital allowances exceed rental income),

_Not sure what this means._

9.  Rental allowance is paid to occupier regardless if not used to pay for rental property occupied.

_No idea what you're talking about? Is it the tax deduction tenants used to get, they did away with that._

10.  Preliminary tax is required if rental profit exceeds €3174 and is based on the income paid for the previous year.

_Can't remember but sounds right._

11.  A loss on one Irish rental property can be off-set against another Irish rental property.

_Yes. Uneconomic lettings are not allowed however._

12.  An audit by Revenue will require expense receipts for the previous four years.

_I thought you'd to keep records for 6 years.  I've mind since the year dot._  T_his is the best bit of advice you will ever get._

13.  After six months of occupancy, a tenant is allowed to stay 112 days in the premises after notice given by owner.

_Not a clue.  Don't care whether my tenants come or go.  They mostly stay.  Currently it's a great market, haven't had a moving tenant since I can remember.  I've no leases, don't care about notices from tenants or anything as long as they don't do any damage (we're not talkign about the never ending shares I should have in Magnolia, or all the plumbers I know in Ballygobackwards)  .  Leases on paper are worthless.  One tenant once asked me for a lease.  _

14.  Tenants may occupy a property without paying rent until a decision has been made by the PRTB.

_God help you if a tenant is taking you to the PRTB or if you've decided to waste your time going there as a landlord to get a tenant out.  I'm for bribary myself.  Or taking the hit maybe.  Fingers crossed this day will never come to pass.  _

15.  Property tax is not an allowable rental expense.

_Apparently so.  We've had reams of arguments on this on here.  Or was that the NPPR.  Same difference. I claimed the NPPR, poster accountant Tommy McGibney disagrees with me.  _

16.  Water tax (when paid by landlord) is an allowable expense.

_I am on non speaking terms with Irish water.  You want to see the emails they sent me back, the worst utility I've ever had the misfortune to deal with.  I might add to a post elsewhere on this. Let's be clear however, I'm no water protester, they are anarchists. I'm actually all for water charges._

17.  When a tenant vacates a property, expenses can be claimed while a replacement tenant is being sought.

_Yes.  Not sure how revenue treats it if it's a long time.  I know from poster on here and elsewhere that some people who bought holiday homes in Leitrim etc that some of them are unrentable.  _

18.  When making a tax return, savings are liable for dirt tax + USC.

_What savings?_

19. If lump sums have been paid against the mortgage, then mortgage protection policy payments can be reduced.

_You mean you'd need less insurance and then you'd have to change your policy.  Not a good idea.  _

20.  There is absolutely no government incentive to let a property or to save for the future.

_Give us the figures and you'll see if it makes sense.  Probably not.  If you'd bought in Dublin a couple of years ago, you'd be winning on two fronts, high rents and capital appreciation, and if you'd really timed it right, no CGT.  I looked into it, not Dublin, but it still wasn't worth it.  But I'm what BB would say is overexposed to one asset class._ (only small time mind) 

So now in reciprocation, what is it you're planning on doing?


----------



## Bronte (8 Sep 2015)

Fella said:


> So what your saying is property investment is not worth it , I'd love to do a comparison between direct property investment and investing in a REIT , have you considered REIT's as an alternative , when I am not so busy and move away from my current job/hobby I will certainly do such studies.



Reits's were mentioned on the radio this morning for Dublin.  20% return last year but

1. It was not clear the investors actually got the 20% return.
2. It was not clear how much they actually got over the years invested as an average
3. No talk about how safe an investment it was. 

Also interesting was that the REIT said the commercial market would be overstocked by 2018 - how stupid I thought they are building commercial and domesic is what's needed. Also said that it was probably too late to get in now to make the gains that had just been made.  Odd I thought to talk down your own product. 

As an aside, as we are tallking property, I wondered why Owen O' Callaghan is apparently threatening to leave Cork city if the corporation and council merge.  I have my own view, naturally, on that, but it's not for public consumption.


----------



## Bronte (8 Sep 2015)

Eddie Peters said:


> Thanks Gerard123, Fellla and T mcgibney for your suggestions. I can't see why I would employ an accountant or tax advisor to answer fairly basic questions.



My second best of really good advice to you is, hire an accountant !  A good one !


----------



## Bronte (8 Sep 2015)

Eddie Peters said:


> Apologies for trying to stimulate discussion on the property investment forum of Askaboutmoney.
> Thanks for the insightful comments.



I believe Noonan is going to try and stimulate the market next budget.  So I'm very keen on this naturally.  Wonder will it actually be worthwhile.  The soundings so far, Focus, McVerry, Dept etc sound all over the place.  So I'm expecting them to create a mess.  But hope to goodness they won't come up with more idiotic ideas to build apartments in Dongeal or Roscommon.


----------



## T McGibney (8 Sep 2015)

Bronte said:


> I believe Noonan is going to try and stimulate the market next budget.  So I'm very keen on this naturally.  Wonder will it actually be worthwhile.  The soundings so far, Focus, McVerry, Dept etc sound all over the place.  So I'm expecting them to create a mess.  But hope to goodness they won't come up with more idiotic ideas to build apartments in Dongeal or Roscommon.



Expect nothing. Noonan's various tax stimulation measures in earlier Budgets have all been tokenistic to the point of meaninglessness.


----------



## Bronte (8 Sep 2015)

T McGibney said:


> Expect nothing. Noonan's various tax stimulation measures in earlier Budgets have all been tokenistic to the point of meaninglessness.



I'm in a particularly good mood so please don't bring it down Tommy.  Surely the CGT thing worked? A bit? I've a few bob earning diddly squat so an incentive woudl be nice.

My own accountant had to split up our revenue accounts from himself to the two of us this month.  Ran into a snag doing it online as revenue have an issue with me being abroad so it's now being done manually.  Same glitch I ran into this year when I discovered the reason I didn't get my LPT reminder was because they have an issue with me being abroad.  Despite all the years of revenue sending letters to us abroad !  Interestingly Irish water, who got my details from either revenue/NPPR/LPT also can't find me, they send the letters to me, but use Co. Dublin/Limerick as the country !  Just telling you in case you've foreign clients!


----------



## T McGibney (8 Sep 2015)

Bronte said:


> My own accountant had to split up our revenue accounts from himself to the two of us this month.  Ran into a snag doing it online as revenue have an issue with me being abroad so it's now being done manually.



As non-residents you should have been filing separate (marital status = "single") returns as for some reason Revenue can't handle non-resident returns marked with any other marital status.


----------



## Bronte (8 Sep 2015)

I know that but it's the way I started when I left Ireland and revenue told me I had to do it under my OH's name only.  So the accountant and I discussed it when I hired him and continued as we knew this day would come.  there was an added complication in that revenue issued us a new PRSI no because social welfare went mad with some tenant about some form and it resulted in a new PRSI no, since deleted.  (Something like me instead of being Mary Smith and my OH being Brian Jones, getting Mary Jones) .  Probably social welfare thought we were tax dodging non resident landlords. 

So he's redone 2013 for me.  Are you saying my 'civil' status should not be married but should be single?

(Interestingly a sibling ran into a big problem with revenue in relation to marital status a few years ago.  Result was that a very senior revenue person advised them to try and get a new PRSI no to sort it out as they couldn't fix it.  Something about ticking a box but the box wasn't on the form in a particular year, or something)


----------



## Eddie Peters (8 Sep 2015)

Many thanks to Bronte and other supportive posters! Basically I'm letting a property and I'm paying an accountant - who appears to do the work on behalf of Revenue and any tax-saving information is very difficult to obtain. 

Apologies but  I'm not able to use the quotation function Bronte so I'll underline...

8. An overall rental loss will incur 4% PRSI + USC charge (if mortgage interest, expenses and capital allowances exceed rental income),
Just wondered if USC + PRSI was charged on rental income if no capital allowances deductions.

9. Rental allowance is paid to occupier regardless if not used to pay for rental property occupied.
Just referring to rent allowance is paid to the tenant rather than directly to the landlord 

18. When making a tax return, savings are liable for dirt tax + USC.
Assuming that a landlord happens to have a savings account for childrens education in a few years. The govt won't subsidise 3rd level education for anyone who may have been responsibly saving. Maybe Post Office accounts are exempt from DIRT & USC. 

19. If lump sums have been paid against the mortgage, then mortgage protection policy payments can be reduced.
_You mean you'd need less insurance and then you'd have to change your policy. Not a good idea. _
Not sure why you think it's a bad idea. Surely it is a money-saving exercise - provided the mortgage holder has savings that would cover the outstanding mortgage owed.

20. There is absolutely no government incentive to let a property or to save for the future.

_Give us the figures and you'll see if it makes sense._
This could be an endless rant so I'd prefer not to derail the intent of the original post.

Thanks again.


----------



## Bronte (8 Sep 2015)

Eddie Peters said:


> _Give us the figures and you'll see if it makes sense._
> This could be an endless rant so I'd prefer not to derail the intent of the original post.
> 
> Thanks again.



You're gas on the rant.  It's precisely what is needed. Actual figures !

I'd also be worried about your relationship with your accountant.  Perhaps you should switch.  And I'd like to point out that other posters if you check have contributed greately to the knowledge on here of rental income.  All you've to do is go back and check.  Tommy McGibney in particular.  You seem to think your accountant is hiding something from you.  There is no holy grail of tax savings out there or we'd all be onto it.  I'd say your accountant is working on your behalf to make sure that revenue are happy and that you don't sue his ass for getting your tax returns wrong.

I'm not an accountant so for the revnue stuff I don't really keep up any more.  I've too many years of changing rules in my head, which is why I've hired a good accountant in any case.   The PRSI followed by the USC was the straw that broke the camels back for me.

9. Rent allowance is generally paid directly to the tenant.  They then have to pay you their rent, out of that and their top up.  NEVER ever agree to falsify the forms for social welfare. And you'll have tenants begging you and at all sorts.  It's a rocky road to go down.  You have to fill out a form for them, I advise you to be very familiar with how this works.  I've never had an issue.  (fingers crossed)

18 - what has this to do with rental income?

19 give us a concrete example.  Are we talking you making mega lump sum payments (here we go back to my asking for the figures)

20.  That's a debate.  Maybe another thread.

Me, I'm getting out at the next bubble. The only thing that consoles me is that I didn't sell one property at the height, make a killing and then go and borrow over my head.  AAM keeps me sane in relation to that.  The horror stories.  Including my own solicitor.  And another solicitor who is a friend.  Then there's two members of my family who are still up to their necks all these years later.


----------



## Eddie Peters (8 Sep 2015)

I honestly don't think that my accountant is hiding anything but appears to play it really safe - which is good from a tax compliancy point but sometimes I think that it's needlessly costing me e.g.  nppr/ septic tank tax were not allowable rental expenses. I did try to switch to another accountancy firm a few years ago but the new firm advised that it wasn't possible as my accountant had all my records.

By the way I do appreciate the invaluable contributions of yourself, T McGibney et al.

Thanks again Bronte - I'm really impressed by your quick, logical replies & keyboard skills!


----------



## Bronte (8 Sep 2015)

Your accountant sounds excellent.  What do you mean play it safe, that's why we hire accountants isn't it, to play it safe.  We don't want to be paying roulette with revenue.  You've heard the expression 'dull' accountant.  (apologies guys - I don't want no fly by night- my accountant reigns me in !  And he's by no means dull, far from it, just in case he's reading). 

My own accountant and I had a debate about NPPR, I am properly informed and I alone took the decision to claim it.  It is on my head.  I doubt any of the rest of his clients claimed it.  But I'm prepared for an audit and to go to appeal on this. 

Septic tank?  Is this is a cleaning charge I would think it was allowable.  Or was this a 'capital' expense and so will go against CGT, eventually. 

That's nonsense that you can't change accountant, you are entitled too your records (and in any case do you not have a copy of everything yourself ! returns, emails, receipts etc).  Sounds more like the new accoutants weren't interested in your business. 

Thanks for the praise, but you shouldn't trust stuff you read on the web.


----------



## Eddie Peters (8 Sep 2015)

I agree Bronte. I could do the accounts online myself but I pay an accountant to act as an independent non-biased auditor.
The septic tank tax was a govt registration charge (around the same time as nppr).
Totally agree that the accountancy firm wasn't interested in new small business (during the boom time).

18. When making a tax return, savings are liable for dirt tax + USC.
_what has this to do with rental income?_
Only related to rental income because tax kicks in when income exceeds the €3174 allowance.

6. 75% of mortgage interest is deducted from the gross rental income if registered with the PRTB - costing €90 if registered within the month of tenancy; or €180 retrospectively after one month. How is a retrospective application made e.g. if tenants have moved on, are PPS numbers and signatures still required.
Anyone know how this can be done retrospectively without PPS numbers?

19. If lump sums have been paid against the mortgage, then mortgage protection policy payments can be reduced.
Assuming that mortgage amount has been significantly reduced by paying periodic lump sums. I assume that mtg protection payments can be reviewed.

Thanks.


----------



## Bronte (8 Sep 2015)

Ask revenue by email about the service tank charge.  Not on the phone though. They take a few months to get back to you, in my experience but they will get back to you eventually.  I've a feeling your accountant is right that it is not deductable.  Alternatively google it.  Might be on revenue .ie website too.

Ok 18 I get now.

So your real issue today is you didn't register some past tenants with the PRTB.  I'm just curious, does your accountant not ask you to confirm you are PRTB registered, mine does and I've to prove it too !

I don't know exactly how you go about back registering currently, but there is a thread on it here somewhere as it's been discussed.  Not sure if it gives exact details. So I've some suggestions. a) start a thread on just this.  b) try the IPOA c) try the landlords.ie website d) ring PRTB e) log in to PRTB and see how far you can progress without the PRSI.

19 I don't like people tinkering with insurances when there is no need.  In general, let's say you started the insurance 10 years ago, the premium would now be relatively not so bad, but if you start a new policy, you might find the premium is higher even though the amount underlying it is less.  This is because as we get older insurance goes up.  So I don't see this as a big cost saving.

You seem loath to post figures so it's hard to figure out what is going on exactly.


----------



## T McGibney (8 Sep 2015)

The septic tank charge is clearly an expense of management of the property and is of course deductible on that basis. The same applies imho to the NPPR and LPT although Revenue and Ministers Noonan and Lenihan have pretended otherwise. Why should they say anything different? Their job is to maximise the tax take.

Its easy and relatively straightforward to retrospectively register tenants with the PRTB.

Bronte, out of interest, how do you prove to your accountant that you have complied  in full with the Residential Tenancies Act re PRTB? It's easy to demonstrate that you've registered but all but impossible, short of sworn declarations etc, to prove full compliance with the Act, as is required for the interest charge deduction.


----------



## Eddie Peters (8 Sep 2015)

Thanks again for your timely & informative reply Bronte.
To be bluntly honest, I only posted yesterday because I was doing tax returns and it seemed like a good idea to help others! I didn't post numbers because I was not looking for advice - just looking for some balanced general views.
Just wondering though why you're not interested in mtg protection policy reviews though? It might be a tax-deductible expense, but it is an expense.
Thanks T McGibney - "Its easy and relatively straightforward to retrospectively register tenants with the PRTB". Are PPS numbers not required?


----------



## Bronte (8 Sep 2015)

T McGibney said:


> Bronte, out of interest, how do you prove to your accountant that you have complied  in full with the Residential Tenancies Act re PRTB? It's easy to demonstrate that you've registered but all but impossible, short of sworn declarations etc, to prove full compliance with the Act, as is required for the interest charge deduction.



Goodness me no. How do you mean comply.  I send him a scan of all the registrations.  Isn't that enough.  It well night time of year to have a look again as I might have a tenancy to re register.  Also sent proof of the NPPR.  The house hold charge.  Can't remember about LPT, I think he can see that online, as I seem to recall that from last year.  Also discussed with him this year as I never got the reminder and I was worried that being late would mean some kind of surcharge, but as the accounts aren't submitted I'm not late.

Can't understand how they made LPT so complicated when NPPR was so easy.  Both to register and pay. 

Edit: You're making me worried now.  What exactly else should I comply with for the Act?  (as an aside, and I'm not the only family member in this business.  None us us has ever ever been visited by any authority to see if we comply with anything.  Not buildings, not safety, nothing. But I get the gas serviced and a certificate etc.  Central heating cleaned.


----------



## Bronte (8 Sep 2015)

Eddie Peters said:


> Th
> Just wondering though why you're not interested in mtg protection policy reviews though? It might be a tax-deductible expense, but it is an expense.



I'm at the end of the road Eddie, too old to go changing anything now.  Last property doesn't even have insurance and is in NE !

You should have told us your reason for posting at the beginning.  It's on my to do list.  I hate this part.


----------



## Bronte (8 Sep 2015)

T McGibney said:


> The septic tank charge is clearly an expense of management of the property and is of course deductible on that basis. The same applies imho to the NPPR and LPT although Revenue and Ministers Noonan and Lenihan have pretended otherwise. .



On this matter, did we not have arguments back and forth on here on this.  Or was that the guy M, what was his name.  Mandelbot ?  I told him I was willing to go all the way on this and via the IPOA I contracted another helpful accountant in Dublin who told me it was his opinion to claim it and that was his advice to this clients too.  They haven't a leg to stand over on this.  It's most definately an expense of management of the property.


----------



## Eddie Peters (8 Sep 2015)

Insurance is due tomorrow on rental. €338 yoyos. I will definitely pay it though. For public liability insurance if nothing else.
T McGibney - "Its easy and relatively straightforward to retrospectively register tenants with the PRTB". Are PPS numbers not required?
My accountant reckons that LPT is not a deductible expense. I pay for the advice and follow it.


----------



## Bronte (8 Sep 2015)

You're confusing your insurances.  I won't tell you as a non resident what my premiums are for *house* insurance.  That's another thing I had to go to the ombudsman about as a bank decided to cancel it on me one year when they 'discovered' I didn't live in Ireland !


----------



## T McGibney (8 Sep 2015)

Eddie Peters said:


> T McGibney - "Its easy and relatively straightforward to retrospectively register tenants with the PRTB". Are PPS numbers not required?


No, not any longer. Its been quite a while since they stopped looking for them. Some tenants, quite justifiably, were reluctant to give their PPSNs to landlords in order to be put on a State register.


----------



## Eddie Peters (8 Sep 2015)

Apologies Bronte. I pay landlord insurance on the property that covers buildings, contents, public liability, replacement locks, fire brigade cover, subsidence etc. Never claimed a bob but it helps me sleep


----------



## T McGibney (8 Sep 2015)

Bronte said:


> Goodness me no. How do you mean comply.  I send him a scan of all the registrations.  Isn't that enough.  It well night time of year to have a look again as I might have a tenancy to re register.  Also sent proof of the NPPR.  The house hold charge.  Can't remember about LPT, I think he can see that online, as I seem to recall that from last year.  Also discussed with him this year as I never got the reminder and I was worried that being late would mean some kind of surcharge, but as the accounts aren't submitted I'm not late.
> 
> Can't understand how they made LPT so complicated when NPPR was so easy.  Both to register and pay.
> 
> Edit: You're making me worried now.  What exactly else should I comply with for the Act?  (as an aside, and I'm not the only family member in this business.  None us us has ever ever been visited by any authority to see if we comply with anything.  Not buildings, not safety, nothing. But I get the gas serviced and a certificate etc.  Central heating cleaned.



Not meaning to scare you at all, but he's wasting his and your time looking for copies of your registrations as they indicate but don't actually prove compliance. For example you could have 2 tenancies in a year but registered only one, and that wouldn't mean you'd be entitled to the deduction as you wouldn't have complied with your registration obligations under the Act - even though you would have a piece of paper that suggests otherwise.

Just shows how silly it was of Brian Cowen as finance minister to link PRTB registration with interest deduction.


----------



## Eddie Peters (8 Sep 2015)

For those considering renting out a property I think we might be going off-track from the original post.
No offence to T McGibney or other accountants. I honestly think that most accountants are decent independent auditors.


----------



## Bronte (8 Sep 2015)

T McGibney said:


> Not meaning to scare you at all, but he's wasting his and your time looking for copies of your registrations as they indicate but don't actually prove compliance. For example you could have 2 tenancies in a year but registered only one, and that wouldn't mean you'd be entitled to the deduction as you wouldn't have complied with your registration obligations under the Act - even though you would have a piece of paper that suggests otherwise.
> .



Phew.  I know very well that all tenancies in a property have to be registered.  At all times (not in voids of course) And so does my accountant.  (I have subdivided property) 

I know someone who played fast and loose on that too.  Registering say 4 instead of 6.  Told them they were idiots and it would catch up with them. 

What Tommy do you do with your clients about 'compliance'.  It's not really the accountants job but I think it's important they advice their clients on it.  Same with NPPR, LPT etc.  You'll all be blamed if we 'forget' !


----------



## Bronte (8 Sep 2015)

Eddie Peters said:


> For those considering renting out a property I think we might be going off-track from the original post.
> No offence to T McGibney or other accountants. I honestly think that most accountants are decent independent auditors.



We may have slightly veered but I'm learning stuff.  Tommy has just pointed out something very important about the PRTB that others might not know.  A) all flats within one building has to be registered, not just one tenancy B) PRTB can be backdated C) no longer any need for PRSI no - I didn't know that, but I prefer to have it, never know the day it might help me to prove they were real !

To be honest I might as well now just register with Tom, Dick and Harry as whose to know if they are real or not.


----------



## T McGibney (8 Sep 2015)

It's important to advise on compliance but I would never go so far as to demand certs etc off people because it's their job to comply and I won't leave myself open by confirming third-party compliance when I can't prove it.

Incidentally your friend's playing games with PRTB reg's won't catch up with them except by accident. Whatever about the accountant, it's largely impossible for a tax inspector to detect something like that.


----------



## T McGibney (9 Sep 2015)

Bronte said:


> Tommy has just pointed out something very important about the PRTB that others might not know.  A) all flats within one building has to be registered, not just one tenancy



Just spotted this now: that wasn't my point actually (although it is true). 

My point refers more to a situation eg where a tenant leaves during the  year and is replaced by another, but the change (and the €90 fee) isn't registered with the PRTB. In this case, the landlord has a slip of paper confirming they have registered with the PRTB, but they haven't actually "complied in full" with the Residential Tenancies Act by registering all tenancy changes and thus technically aren't entitled to the interest deduction against taxable rents. 

So the slip of paper can actually mislead.


----------



## Bronte (9 Sep 2015)

PRTB

Tommy, yes I realise that too in relation to PRTB - who I've been dealing with since 2004.  But I think the mortgage interest was only making it obligatory since 2006.  There is no slip of paper to prove when tenants leave.  And the PRTB website is a mess.  And I know for sure their old records are total chaos.  But I now realise something I hadn't since yesterday, say revenue comes an audits me and goes back say to 2007 and I discover I had a tenant for a month that I never registered,  sure even if I don't know their name I can just now put down Paddy Murphy, with the relevant dates and back date the registration and the problem is solved.  In my case I have a) the tenant's real names, b) their PRSI nos, c) the date of registration, d) their date of leaving.  I've only though been doing this with my accountant and can't remember who what and when back in the mists of time.  I put these details on an excel I send my accountant.  With the PRTB confirmation no.  This way I will not miss registering a tenant.

Because of this thread I decided to look back on last year and I see that I've to re register a sitting tenant (4 years) in Nov. 

NPPR/Household Charge/LPT

I also checked these for last year and I've been deducting all three.  The note I wrote myself on my excel is along these lines...  _LPT was introduced in xxx to fund local authority services, ie rates.  It replaces the NPPR and household charge._


----------



## Logo (17 Sep 2016)

To reiterate a previous poster and it being rental income time for returns to revenue I'm just wondering if...

1.  Pre-rental expenses not allowable but goods can be estimated on current value.
2.  Taxable income is gross income for USC tax minus expenses & capital allowances at  12.5%/8years).
3.  USC is charged on rental income after capital allowances and before expense deductions.
4.  On higher tax rate,  Jan-Dec 16, taxable income is 52% tax (41% income tax + 4% PRSI + 7% USC).
5.  75% of mortgage interest is deducted from the gross rental income if registered with the PRTB - costing €90 if registered within the month o €190 retrospectively after one month.
6. Mortgage protection policy payments are allowable for rental tax income purposes.
7.  An overall rental loss will still incur 4% PRSI + USC charge (if mortgage interest, expenses plus capital allowances exceed rental income),
8.  Preliminary tax is required - if rental profit exceeds €3174
9.  A loss on one Irish rental property can be off-set against another Irish rental property.
10.  An audit by Revenue will require expense receipts for the previous six years.
11.  After six months of occupancy, a tenant is allowed to stay 112 days  after notice given by owner.
12.  Tenants may occupy a property without paying rent until a decision has been made by the PRTB.
13.  Property tax is not an allowable rental expense.
14.  When a tenant vacates a property, expenses can be claimed while a replacement tenant is sought.
15.  When making a tax return, all bank savings (except for PO state savings) are liable for dirt tax + USC.

I agree with most of the above but would appreciate any feedback/comments. Thanks in advance


----------



## Gordon Gekko (17 Sep 2016)

USC is charged on rental income less expenses but before capital allowances are deducted.


----------



## Logo (17 Sep 2016)

Gordon Gekko said:


> USC is charged on rental income less expenses but before capital allowances are deducted.



Everyday is a school day Gordon Gekko!
Is it still possible to register tenants retrospectively i.e. without tenant PPS numbers or signatures? And do I need to lodge the deposit with the PRTB when registering?


----------



## Aidan McGrath1 (21 Sep 2016)

Hi,
I sold an apt in July2015. It was previously my PPR. I rented it out from June 2012 to July2015 , all rental income declared on Form12 , PRTB , NPPR , IPT all as it should be.
My questions;

1) Can I claim Estate agents and legal fees against rental income for 2015? Including VAT? I am not registered for VAT - private individual.
2) I made a Capital loss of €30K - is there any point completing a CGT return to register and use the loss going forward

Thanks,


----------



## Gordon Gekko (21 Sep 2016)

No re EA fees etc against rent.

Yes re the loss, but it's diluted by the period when the property was your PPR.


----------



## Páid (22 Sep 2016)

I didn't see this mentioned - [broken link removed]

100% of mortgage interest may be claimed instead of the usual 75% if you rent out to a social housing tenant.

The PRTB are still accepting applications though the deadline has passed.

The form is notoriously difficult to find - [broken link removed]


----------

