# Kildare Planning



## kkelliher (21 Apr 2011)

Just wondering if anyone has a contact with an Architect / Planning Consultant with extensive experieince dealing with Kildare County Council


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## onq (21 Apr 2011)

Don't limit yourself to someone with Kildare experience.
Competence trancends country boundaries.
"Nodding and winking" fails these days.
I've always found Kildare very fair.

However I understand there was a problem with the Osberstown Treatment Plant as of this time last year, resulting in a restriction on some permissions for a while.
Its on the Appeal File on the Palmerstown Demesne Development IIRC.
Does anyone know if this has been addressed yet?
I'd appreciate some feedback on it if so.


ONQ.

  [broken link removed]

  All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied           upon                                                                                         as  a          defence    or         support   -         in          and     of               itself   -                    should                      legal                  action             be                       taken.
  Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise      in                                                                                               Real      Life      with        rights    to                inspect         and             issue                  reports           on            the                             matters        at                      hand.


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## kkelliher (22 Apr 2011)

I am looking for some planning advise on a site in kildare. The issue is the local needs as I have no connection to the area. Is it a complete no in this event?


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## aristotle (22 Apr 2011)

kkelliher said:


> I am looking for some planning advise on a site in kildare. The issue is the local needs as I have no connection to the area. Is it a complete no in this event?


 
From what I have read the local needs thing is strict in Kildare and many planning requests are refused purely on that basis. Just check some of the planning documents on sites near to where you are looking for. (see planning query system on kildare county council website).


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## onq (22 Apr 2011)

Guys,

With the best will in the world you need to engage someone with planning consultant experience to sus out the problems professionally and to negotiate with the council on your behalf.
I've previously commented - only in the past fortnight - about how this  restriction on development seems to be resting on vary shaky legal  asssumptions.

Typically, however, this isn't just about living in Kildare.
This is often about building a dream house on a greenfield site out of town with no services and poor road access.

In the paraphrased words of Paul Keogh, President of the RIAI, Architects -
"...shouldn't be congratulating yourself on having designed an A-rated energy efficient house when the client's Carbon Footprint is a size 15 because of your commuting lifestyle".

We voted with our feet, long before this sort of thing became fashionable.
We bought a second hand house in Wicklow and currently live in another in Dublin.
They're not the most modern construction and cost a lot to heat, but hey, I work from home, so not much of a carbon footprint overall.

One strategy might be to buy an existing house somewhere in Kildare at the knock-down prices that exist at the moment.
You could live there for a few years as required under the development plan until you become "a local" - then build your house.


ONQ.

  [broken link removed]

  All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied            upon                                                                                          as  a          defence    or          support   -         in          and     of               itself   -                     should                      legal                  action              be                       taken.
  Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise       in                                                                                                Real      Life      with        rights     to                inspect         and             issue                   reports           on            the                             matters         at                      hand.


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## kkelliher (22 Apr 2011)

the legal shankeyness is one thing but it costs a few euro to fight it

I have spoken to many in the industry and no-one can speak positive about my chances. I have no link to the area, I am not a farmer, I am not in the horse game and therefore I am not allowed planning! 

I work from home (my business (quantity surveying) is very virtual and is at present ran from home)
The site is next to services on a main road with many other properties along the route

I would happily work with the planners on technical issues of design etc (if I could get this far)

The local needs issue is nothing short of rediculous and if I had a pot of gold I would bring it legal all the way but unfortunately the pot is not that full anymore


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## onq (22 Apr 2011)

If you're butting your head against a wall, why don't you do as I suggest?
Buy local to where you want to live, either second hand or new.

The cost will be a fraction of what you'll pay to develop.
Live there for a while to establish your "Local need".

In a few years apply for your desired permission.
Its seem pretty straightforward to me... yes?

ONQ.

  [broken link removed]

  All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied             upon                                                                                           as  a          defence    or           support   -         in          and     of               itself   -                      should                      legal                   action              be                       taken.
  Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise        in                                                                                                 Real      Life      with        rights      to                inspect         and             issue                    reports           on            the                              matters         at                      hand.


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## kkelliher (22 Apr 2011)

onq said:


> If you're butting your head against a wall, why don't you do as I suggest?
> Buy local to where you want to live, either second hand or new.
> 
> The cost will be a fraction of what you'll pay to develop.
> ...


 

It takes 12 years to develop the local need in kildare; 

buying a second hand property that I would live in based on properties available in they area would cost substantially more than developing my own site; I have looked at all the options and developing is the only way to go.

I am not under any pressure to do this but its a preference and I dont think that the only obsticle should be the local needs issue.

Why dont they put a clause that you cant see for 12 years at least that way you will at least become part of the community. 

A quick search on Daft or myhome and the amount of properties for sale with planning permission is ridiculous and these granted to "local needs" applicants who are looking to sell straight away and make a profit.

Like all regulation we have placed on us, there seems to be a massive imbalance in the thinking behind this law


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## onq (22 Apr 2011)

> _ Why dont they put a clause that you cant see for 12 years at least that way you will at least become part of the community._



I'm sorry KK - I must be misunderstanding this - what do you mean?

BTW I didn't think it was 12 years - that's ridiculous!

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon  as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be  taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in  Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at  hand.


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## kkelliher (23 Apr 2011)

The development plan under local needs only allows for planning for those living or growing up in the area for circa 12 years prior to application 

Schedule 6.2 of the plan details this


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## Superman (23 Apr 2011)

kkelliher said:


> the legal shankeyness is one thing but it costs a few euro to fight it


The "legal shakiness" would likely require a trip to the Supreme Court or possibly the European Court of Human Rights.  Even then I'd expect the applicant's chances to be slim at best.  
I wouldn't recommend it to anyone trying to build a house... 

I'm not sure there is any solution to your problem unfortunately.


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## onq (23 Apr 2011)

Thinking about it some more, taking a legal case may not be useful.

Exceptions are/were made on the basis of where the person is living now.
This priciple came in with the children of farmers and landowners being gifted with free sites.

One argument then was that they they had a right to live on the land and couldn't afford to purchase either sites or housing otherwise.
The fact of living in an area alone or being the offspring of a landowner is not sufficient to justify bending planning laws IMO.
I believe this is a form of undeserved privilege - if its right to develop the land, its right to do so - period.

Other arguments involved the prevention of the erosion of the community fabric by not forcing people to engage in economic migration.
This was seen in some quarters as a reaction to the generational loss of population in rural areas which was leaving "ghost towns".
It was this kind of sentiment as much as any development led greed which led to the roundabout estates we've seen recently.

However the largesse shown to the offspring of landowners or other needy people has been shown to have several implications, not all of them based on extreme need for housing
The proof of this are the vendors seeking to sell the subsequently permitted development and potential purchasers seeking advice on AAM and boards.ie about means to get around the relevant condition.

Thus I see the legal position as totally untenable in principle, not shaky and it needs someone with courage and money to take the case.
I suspect that should any case succeed, establishing the right to build isolated houses in rural locations might not be the end result.
Were that to be the case, the price of land in available locations like Kildare would probably skyrocket out of the OP's reach.

However, the default position is not likely to an automatic grant of permission in such cases, but the imposition of development standards.
These will involve imposing an appropriate density and the restriction of new development to areas where the existing urban fabric can be reinforced.
I do not think that the courts decision will act to undermine the urban fabric of towns by allowing it to be dispersed through development outside of the town limits.

So even if a case is taken, it could result in a conservative approach being taken based on sound planning principles which could lead to teh opposite of the OP's desires.
Yeah, Supermans's probably right - forget I said anything.

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon   as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be   taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in   Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at   hand.


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## kkelliher (23 Apr 2011)

Very good post

I generally believe that planning should nit involve bias to certain sections of communities in any way. Each application should be in Its own merrits and not on the personal individual applying


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## Troy McClure (24 Apr 2011)

Go to a pre planning meeting, especially if the planner who covers the particuliar area you want to build is doing it. This will tell you if you have any chance or avenue to move forward. It wont cost you to find out the same answer..


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## planner (4 May 2011)

Hi,

Check out the *Kildare Planning Blog* which deals with all planning issues in Kildare (I haven't posted enough posts to include a url link but simply type these words into google and you'll find it - its a wordpress blog).

You should note that the new County Development Plan (2011 - 2017) has just come into effect (2nd May) and the county has been divided in two in terms of assessing appliations for one-off housing. Broadly speaking if you live north or east of Newbridge the criteria to qualify have been made more difficult while the criteria south of Newbridge remain the same as under the previous plan. 

Hope this helps.


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## onq (5 May 2011)

Thanks for the information planner.

My only question is "who invents these arbitrary requirements?"

And dividing a county like that - its like the British division of Africa with straight lines!

Un-believe-able stuff - still, the gist of it seems to be a crackdown on one-off housing generally.

I think Troy McClure's point is very relevant - go along and meet the planner and have a chat - assuming they'll meet with you.

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon    as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be    taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in    Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at    hand.


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## MDGA (15 Oct 2011)

Have you looked at any sites in the settlements? I am aware of some available for one off builds, now that housing developments are a thing of the past


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