# Is Moving Your €€ out of Ireland unpatriotic??



## Mommah

My grandfather fought in the war of independance and in the civil war.
He put his life at risk for this country, sacrificed his legal career and had to go "on the run"  lived in the mountains being fed by locals.

What would he think if I move the bulk of my savings abroad.
Would I be spitting on his grave?

Should we stand and fight this economic battle or run for the hills?


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## z107

Patriotism is a mugs' game. Ask yourself how patriotic the current government are with their actions.

Patriotism is an idea invented to keep certain groups either wealthy and/or in power.


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## marti18

run if you can because this government doesnt give a damn bout you me or anybody..

if i won the lottery id be out a here and take all my money wth me


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## spreadsheet

It's completely your own business what you do with your after-tax money. You already paid your taxes toward the common good of the country.


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## tiger

Ask the two Brians if either of them has any of their personal deposits with non-irish banks.


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## Marietta

Bertie had his under the pillow he was very psychic and ahead of his time


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## marti18

Marietta said:


> Bertie had his under the pillow he was very psychic and ahead of his time


 
CLEVER MAN INDEED.....he surely smelt something!     he sure is lying low at the moment. 

i better use good language but its very difficult to describe such a man than a complete B and his counterparts that followed him are not much better


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## bluemac

once they put a NEW bank in place state run for investment in enterprise and Business (not for house or home building) I will be happy to open an account and put my money in it.  As long as its not run by any of the old crowd..  until then its abroad. 

I recon they could get 50 billion in deposits in  the first 3 -6 months... imagine what they could do with that..  I admit it would be goodbye to the rest of them..


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## Bobby1

Im amazed at how people over-reacting in the last few weeks, the media have hyped this all up to the point everyone is convinced the country is about to go bust....Im glad the IMF are in as they will sort out the country since the gov cant

RTE are the worst offenders, programme afer programme of talking us into a deeper recession then we are in. Why cant Irish people cop the hell on and see that the EU will not let us fail, they have said it enough times.

First sign of trouble and everyone floods to pull money from irish banks to put it with the very countries that loaned us the money that has us in the problems we are in - Germany, UK and France!!!! 

There is talk people are moving money for fear the EURO will fail..... so what are people doing putting it in german banks, which will revert to DM!

This is the time Irish people need to stand firm for the good of the country, like the OP stated, we have gone through much worse and come out the other end, sadly we have become a nation of Joe Duffy followers... Joe says jump and we say how high. Keep your funds with irish banks the guarantee schemes in place will protect deposits, and we have EU, IMF, UK Norway all pledging money to us to help us out. 

Im with the OP, very unpatriotic pulling funds from Irish banks..... all your doing is adding to the problems we have and for god sake we have enough!


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## farmerette

Bobby1 said:


> Im amazed at how people over-reacting in the last few weeks, the media have hyped this all up to the point everyone is convinced the country is about to go bust....Im glad the IMF are in as they will sort out the country since the gov cant
> 
> RTE are the worst offenders, programme afer programme of talking us into a deeper recession then we are in. Why cant Irish people cop the hell on and see that the EU will not let us fail, they have said it enough times.
> 
> First sign of trouble and everyone floods to pull money from irish banks to put it with the very countries that loaned us the money that has us in the problems we are in - Germany, UK and France!!!!
> 
> There is talk people are moving money for fear the EURO will fail..... so what are people doing putting it in german banks, which will revert to DM!
> 
> This is the time Irish people need to stand firm for the good of the country, like the OP stated, we have gone through much worse and come out the other end, sadly we have become a nation of Joe Duffy followers... Joe says jump and we say how high. Keep your funds with irish banks the guarantee schemes in place will protect deposits, and we have EU, IMF, UK Norway all pledging money to us to help us out.
> 
> Im with the OP, very unpatriotic pulling funds from Irish banks..... all your doing is adding to the problems we have and for god sake we have enough!


 

thats all very well but the problem is this , the people have no faith whatsoever in the goverment and especially mr cowen , had this goverment resigned two years ago or at least three months ago , the people could have elected a new goverment with a fresh mandate , thier would be less cynicism around and i firmly believe we would not have seen the same exodus of deposits

the situation is such at the moment that were mr cowen to even appear on tv and tell the nation that deposits were perfectly safe , few if anyone would believe him , him and lennehan are devoid of credibility at this stage


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## wavejumper

Bobby1 said:


> Im amazed at how people over-reacting in the last few weeks, the media have hyped this all up to the point everyone is convinced the country is about to go bust....Im glad the IMF are in as they will sort out the country since the gov cant
> 
> RTE are the worst offenders, programme afer programme of talking us into a deeper recession then we are in. Why cant Irish people cop the hell on and see that the EU will not let us fail, they have said it enough times.
> 
> First sign of trouble and everyone floods to pull money from irish banks to put it with the very countries that loaned us the money that has us in the problems we are in - Germany, UK and France!!!!
> 
> There is talk people are moving money for fear the EURO will fail..... so what are people doing putting it in german banks, which will revert to DM!
> 
> This is the time Irish people need to stand firm for the good of the country, like the OP stated, we have gone through much worse and come out the other end, sadly we have become a nation of Joe Duffy followers... Joe says jump and we say how high. Keep your funds with irish banks the guarantee schemes in place will protect deposits, and we have EU, IMF, UK Norway all pledging money to us to help us out.
> 
> Im with the OP, very unpatriotic pulling funds from Irish banks..... all your doing is adding to the problems we have and for god sake we have enough!



completely agree, and I'm not even Irish, but I live and pay my taxes here.  I find the general attitude of deserting the country when things go bad ridiculous.  Stand your ground, vote for the party you think it's going to introduce changes.  Packing your bags and stashing the money away is not going to change anything.


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## Godfather

Even if I would be irish I would distiguish between love for my nation and love for the savings I cumulated in a lifetime by working hard...


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## spreadsheet

Bobby1 said:


> Im with the OP, very unpatriotic pulling funds from Irish banks..... all your doing is adding to the problems we have and for god sake we have enough!



Why don't you take that argument further and say it's unpatriotic not to use your accumulated savings by spending in the local economy to stimulate growth.

This reminds me of the "it's unpatriotic to shop in the North" argument!

Next going on holidays to a foreign country will be unpatriotic.


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## DB74

You're just a rat deserting a sinking ship. Except you're not actually leaving the ship. You're staying to moan about the additional taxes to prop up the banks and whinge because they have no money to lend when actually you are the problem as to why they have no money to lend. If the country is no good for your money then why not just leave with it. You're no better than the people who left in the famine instead of the ones who stuck it out through the hard times. You should be ashamed to call yourself Irish.

PS - does anyone know what time Sainsburys in Newry opens on Saturdays?


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## farmerette

DB74 said:


> You're just a rat deserting a sinking ship. Except you're not actually leaving the ship. You're staying to moan about the additional taxes to prop up the banks and whinge because they have no money to lend when actually you are the problem as to why they have no money to lend. If the country is no good for your money then why not just leave with it. You're no better than the people who left in the famine instead of the ones who stuck it out through the hard times. You should be ashamed to call yourself Irish.
> 
> PS - does anyone know what time Sainsburys in Newry opens on Saturdays?


 

the problem is the goverment and thier complete lack of credibility in terms of earning the peoples trust to neogotiate a deal which will determine our future through several generations , people simply dont trust this goverment to handle our fianancial affairs properly , all they see is This post will be deleted if not edited to remove bad language covering at every turn , a new goverment would have a fresh mandate and i believe thier would not have been anything like the same exodus of deposits under a new untarnished regime


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## johnnyjb

Since he risked his life for his country (one way  or other) i say he wouldnt mind you not letting the shower of yes men rob you of your savings and potential inheritence to further generations of his family. He fought for freedom not for money men to play risky games.

Imagine if any of those guys were still alive. They would burn the whole lot of "our leaders" out of it. 

Dont know bout actually moving it though. Not up to date with that carry on!


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## bullworth

I agree with the above sentiment. Your grandfather didnt fight for the golden circle who have already moved vast amounts of cash out of the country. People have been moving money out of this country for decades into eastern european property etc. Its your money. You can do what you like with it.


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## elcato

> Im amazed at how people over-reacting in the last few weeks, the media  have hyped this all up to the point everyone is convinced the country is  about to go bust....Im glad the IMF are in as they will sort out the  country since the gov cant
> 
> RTE are the worst offenders, programme afer programme of talking us into  a deeper recession then we are in. Why cant Irish people cop the hell  on and see that the EU will not let us fail, they have said it enough  times.
> 
> First sign of trouble and everyone floods to pull money from irish banks  to put it with the very countries that loaned us the money that has us  in the problems we are in - Germany, UK and France!!!!
> 
> There is talk people are moving money for fear the EURO will fail.....  so what are people doing putting it in german banks, which will revert  to DM!
> 
> This is the time Irish people need to stand firm for the good of the  country, like the OP stated, we have gone through much worse and come  out the other end, sadly we have become a nation of Joe Duffy  followers... Joe says jump and we say how high. Keep your funds with  irish banks the guarantee schemes in place will protect deposits, and we  have EU, IMF, UK Norway all pledging money to us to help us out.
> 
> Im with the OP, very unpatriotic pulling funds from Irish banks..... all  your doing is adding to the problems we have and for god sake we have  enough!


I agree with all this it's just a pity that DB74's word seem to be in jest. I would seriously say to all the whingers to please do us all a favour and emigrate as quick as possible and let those who stay get on with the recovery process. Go over to your Cricklewoods and Kilburns and whinge, moan and get drunk and tell everyone how you'd love to be back in Ireland some day but that you're making a fortune and all the people who stayed are idiots. You'll be missed like a visit to the dentist !


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## shnaek

elcato said:


> I agree with all this it's just a pity that DB74's word seem to be in jest. I would seriously say to all the whingers to please do us all a favour and emigrate as quick as possible and let those who stay get on with the recovery process. Go over to your Cricklewoods and Kilburns and whinge, moan and get drunk and tell everyone how you'd love to be back in Ireland some day but that you're making a fortune and all the people who stayed are idiots. You'll be missed like a visit to the dentist !



Would it not be better if the people who are happy with the status quo emigrated, leaving those who want to change the country here to make the place better? Not whingers, but actors of course. No point in whinging and doing nothing about it.


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## suemoo1

marti18 said:


> CLEVER MAN INDEED.....he surely smelt something! he sure is lying low at the moment.
> 
> i better use good language but its very difficult to describe such a man than a complete B and his counterparts that followed him are not much better


 
Is he still in the kitchen press?? lyning low.. i havent seen him in months.. is he ever even in the dail??


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## elcato

> Would it not be better if the people who are happy with the status quo  emigrated, leaving those who want to change the country here to make the  place better? Not whingers, but actors of course. No point in whinging  and doing nothing about it.


 I take your point and agree with most but I for one, would be happy to allow people who are willing to accept the situation and get on with life stay.


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## DB74

My words were half in jest

By all means let people moan and whinge about it (I do myself) and have their say in the next general election or whatever.

But the crux of the current problem is that our banks need money, rightly or wrongly. And if people take money out of the banks for their own selfish purposes then the Govt has to borrow to make up for that removal. The taxpayer is then paying the interest on those borrowings.

It's just another version of the story of the mice and who will volunteer to put the bell on the cat.

I don't feel that people who remove their money from Irish banks have the right to moan about the budget


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## bullworth

DB74 said:


> And if people take money out of the banks for their own selfish purposes then the Govt has to borrow to make up for that removal. The taxpayer is then paying the interest on those borrowings.



Its' their money. They can do what the like with it and noone has a right to lecture them about it.


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## Godfather

bullworth said:


> Its' their money. They can do what the like with it and noone has a right to lecture them about it.



+1. On money everyone can do whatever they want in my opinion as well (unless missing obligations of course). Let's let God be the judge on that...


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## Chris

Bobby1 said:


> Im amazed at how people over-reacting in the last few weeks, the media have hyped this all up to the point everyone is convinced the country is about to go bust....Im glad the IMF are in as they will sort out the country since the gov cant
> 
> RTE are the worst offenders, programme afer programme of talking us into a deeper recession then we are in. Why cant Irish people cop the hell on and see that the EU will not let us fail, they have said it enough times.


The EU do not want to let countries fail, but the question is how many they can actually save. And as citizens from other countries get hit with the bills of fiscally inept countries they will at some stage not be so happy to be doing so.



Bobby1 said:


> First sign of trouble and everyone floods to pull money from irish banks to put it with the very countries that loaned us the money that has us in the problems we are in - Germany, UK and France!!!!
> 
> There is talk people are moving money for fear the EURO will fail..... so what are people doing putting it in german banks, which will revert to DM!


It's a bit more than the first sign of trouble. this has been going on for two years and the mess is getting increasingly worse. And I would prefer my euros to be converted into DM than new punts.



Bobby1 said:


> This is the time Irish people need to stand firm for the good of the country, like the OP stated, we have gone through much worse and come out the other end, sadly we have become a nation of Joe Duffy followers... Joe says jump and we say how high. Keep your funds with irish banks the guarantee schemes in place will protect deposits, and we have EU, IMF, UK Norway all pledging money to us to help us out.


And some people (including me) believe the good of the country is having the banks fail, which is why they are moving money out of Irish banks and into foreign banks or abroad. The guarantee is not worth the paper it is written on when you consider how much money Irish banks owe to foreign countries. Not even the EU/IMF would be willing to cough up that much money for a small country.



Bobby1 said:


> Im with the OP, very unpatriotic pulling funds from Irish banks..... all your doing is adding to the problems we have and for god sake we have enough!


The problem is that banks have not been allowed to fail and replaced by new or more solvent ones. If there was one action in this country that was unpatriotic then it was putting the public on the hook for all the private debts. Seeing through this and protecting your family is in my opinion not unpatriotic.



DB74 said:


> You're just a rat deserting a sinking ship. Except you're not actually leaving the ship. You're staying to moan about the additional taxes to prop up the banks and whinge because they have no money to lend when actually you are the problem as to why they have no money to lend. If the country is no good for your money then why not just leave with it. You're no better than the people who left in the famine instead of the ones who stuck it out through the hard times. You should be ashamed to call yourself Irish.


I for one am "moaning" about the additional taxes that have to be incurred because the banks were bailed out in the first place (I know I'm repeating myself). The reason they are unable to borrow is because their businesses are completely bust, why would anyone give a bankrupt business money and call it patriotic. Would it have been patriotic for people to buy Anglo shares in its dying days?



DB74 said:


> But the crux of the current problem is that our banks need money, rightly or wrongly. And if people take money out of the banks for their own selfish purposes then the Govt has to borrow to make up for that removal. The taxpayer is then paying the interest on those borrowings.


No, the crux of the problem is that the taxpayer was put on the line to save banks that should have been let fail and now has to pay for it. People didn't get a chance to vote for the bail out, but I voted subsequently by pulling all my savings out of Irish banks and most of it out of Ireland.



DB74 said:


> I don't feel that people who remove their money from Irish banks have the right to moan about the budget


Of course they do, they pay taxes just like everyone else does.



bullworth said:


> Its' their money. They can do what the like with it and noone has a right to lecture them about it.


Yes indeed, it's their money and they have already paid exorbitant taxes on it.


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## farmerette

shnaek said:


> Would it not be better if the people who are happy with the status quo emigrated, leaving those who want to change the country here to make the place better? Not whingers, but actors of course. No point in whinging and doing nothing about it.


 
hear hear , sounds like elcato ( like the goverment ) wants non fianna fail voters to emmigrate , that has always been a fianna fail policy in the past , coerce the brightest and best to leave and throw a few bones to the gombeens


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## TSThomas

DB74 said:


> ... But the crux of the current problem is that our banks need money, rightly or wrongly. And if people take money out of the banks for their own selfish purposes then the Govt has to borrow to make up for that removal...


When people feel their money is threatened they'll move it elsewhere. It's the most logical course of action.



DB74 said:


> I don't feel that people who remove their money from Irish banks have the right to moan about the budget


Then you'd be wrong.


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## Kev

wavejumper said:


> completely agree, and I'm not even Irish, but I live and pay my taxes here.  I find the general attitude of deserting the country when things go bad ridiculous.  Stand your ground, vote for the party you think it's going to introduce changes.  Packing your bags and stashing the money away is not going to change anything.



 I agree with this what is the point of moving money if you are going to stay in Ireland that will create a huge headache for depositors that do not live the country that they have put their savings in.


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## Marietta

shnaek said:


> Would it not be better if the people who are happy with the status quo emigrated, leaving those who want to change the country here to make the place better? Not whingers, but actors of course. No point in whinging and doing nothing about it.


 

Shnaek - Can you tell us exactly how *YOU* will go about changing the status quo. From what I can see Fianna Fail got more votes than Labour in the south Donegal by election. Have we learned anything from recent events????????????


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## Mommah

I only heard soundbites today....but I *thought* 80% of voters did NOT vote for FF. Given that 1 in 4 of us suffer from mental illness at any one point in time. only 20% were crazy enough to vote FF, which is positive.


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## elcato

> hear hear , sounds like elcato ( like the  goverment ) wants non fianna fail voters to emmigrate , that has always  been a fianna fail policy in the past , coerce the brightest and best  to leave and throw a few bones to the gombeens


Infacta, d d d d dose are not my p p p policies. Looks like I've been outed. 
As usual, in typical Irish way, you have to blame anyone but not yourself. The majority of people voted for FF for the last 20 years. Like it or lump it, we are all collectively at fault. I'm not making a call to arms to tell everybody to vote FG or Labour but unfortunately we are stuck with the result. As long as there is local politics in Ireland then this will continue.


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## Paddyman

When I hear the hucksters in  Leinster House  talk about the "national interest" I want to run fast and far. It's unpatriotic to shop in the next town, county, or Dublin. It's unpatriotic to shop in in Newry or Belfast (part of our country). Its unpatriotic to shop from our EU partners  or visit our families in the USA.
  This from the hucksters who produced Jack Lynch ( of Gulf Oil and Whiddy fame), Frank Fahy (Of Shell and Rossport fame), Brian Lenihan, Peter Sutherland , Charlie Haughey, Bertie, Mary Harney , Charlie McGreevy, Michael Woods, etc.
  Now its unpatriotic to protect your savings. Its o.k. for Bono, J.P. McManus, Denis O'Brien,the Smurfits, Tony and Gavin O'Reilly and the rest of the lads to stash their cash abroad. But they aren't doing it for protection from a failed state - merely to be more "tax-effective".
  As a republican and an internationalist, I think that the patriotism of the  huckster/crony capitalists is just a mask to hide vested interests. In my opinion you have a duty to protect yourself and your families from this scum!


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## Chris

Paddyman said:


> Now its unpatriotic to protect your savings. Its o.k. for Bono, J.P. McManus, Denis O'Brien,the Smurfits, Tony and Gavin O'Reilly and the rest of the lads to stash their cash abroad. But they aren't doing it for protection from a failed state - merely to be more "tax-effective".
> As a republican and an internationalist, I think that the patriotism of the  huckster/crony capitalists is just a mask to hide vested interests. In my opinion you have a duty to protect yourself and your families from this scum!



Very well said. Some obscure definition of patriotism is not going to help my family when I'm among the last to try and retrieve my savings.


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## shnaek

Paddyman said:


> As a republican and an internationalist, I think that the patriotism of the  huckster/crony capitalists is just a mask to hide vested interests. In my opinion you have a duty to protect yourself and your families from this scum!



Well said.


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## Godfather

Paddyman said:


> Now its unpatriotic to protect your savings. Its  o.k. for Bono, J.P. McManus, Denis O'Brien,the Smurfits, Tony and Gavin  O'Reilly and the rest of the lads to stash their cash abroad. But they  aren't doing it for protection from a failed state - merely to be more  "tax-effective"



Paddyman, genius comment I have to say! Really great comment!


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## putsch

I don't know whether "patriotic" is the right word but I do think it is a self-fulfilling prophecy to move money out of Irish banks - the more people do this the more likely the banks are to fail and thus those who withdraw their deposits are weakening the economy and contributing to the problems we have.  I can understand that someone would feel/think " well I'm going to look after no 1" but not all of us feel like that.  

I have moved a little money but left most of it in the Irish institutions for the above reasons - I'd feel guilty and selfish to do otherwise.  Likwise I didn't participate in the property boom either.


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## bullworth

putsch said:


> I have moved a little money but left most of it in the Irish institutions for the above reasons - I'd feel guilty and selfish to do otherwise.  Likwise I didn't participate in the property boom either.



You cant take care of the people you care about unless you take care of yourself first. Otherwise your family and friends could need your help and you can find yourself unable to assist. Its the same with mental and physical health. If dad is unwell he cant take care of his children and his responsibilities. 
Thats my view of patriotism. If the individuals are strong then they can help the rest of society but if the individual doesnt do his part to keep his mental, physical and financial health strong then he will not only be unable to help those he cares about but he will also become a burden on those who care about him. My view is one of wealth protection. If people in our society protect their wealth then they will actually have something remaining with which to invest in their country. Euros which fled the country can return after any crisis with their value preserved or increased but if they remain during a crisis then everyone will be broke during the aftermath, if the aftermath is  a bad one.
Paddyman made a good point above. Its the people who can afford to leave their deposits in the banks who have sent those deposits offshore. If the banks fail and the country collapses those same leeches will bring that money back trying to buy up every cheap asset in sight. Knowing their view of ethics it could be a similar asset stripping exercise as Eircom which went from being a really strong company with plenty of assets to one which exists as a debt repayment machine with fewer employees. Small savers keep money; frequently their life savings in banks for a rainy day, for 100% security. Some rely on it as income in their retirement or as a lynchpin for their future plans.  They are the ones who truly cannot afford to risk anything. If you can afford to take the risk of being  a patsy for the golden circle  and the bondholders then good for you but dont say you havent been warned. If you wish to take such risks you might as well buy some assets of equal or lesser risk. Its your money. Your choice. Consider your responsibilities in the real world when you make your financial decisions and consider what patriotism actually means and how little gratitude for it exists despite all the efforts of the ordinary decent person.


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## TSThomas

Paddyman said:


> Now its unpatriotic to protect your savings...


For all the talk of be patriotic, "keep your money in Irish banks", what have said banks done in return? Lending is at an all time low, customers being pressured to dump tracker mortgages, overdraft facilities cut, interest rate rises on loans, deposit interest rates cut...


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## Vega

Mommah said:


> My grandfather fought in the war of independance and in the civil war.
> He put his life at risk for this country, sacrificed his legal career and had to go "on the run" lived in the mountains being fed by locals.
> 
> What would he think if I move the bulk of my savings abroad.
> Would I be spitting on his grave?
> 
> Should we stand and fight this economic battle or run for the hills?


 
No of course you would not be spitting on anyone's grave.

If you believe there is a chance of losing all your savings is losing your money patriotic?


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## Lightning

My 2 cents ... bank have treated the Irish public is a disgraceful manner. The activities of Anglo, INBS and AIB have brought this country to it's knees. I have no loyalty to any Irish bank and view the activity of the banks in a very low light. They deserve no loyalty. 

You have a right to move your money where ever you want to move your money. It is your deposits, it is your decision. 

Anyway, whether you think it is "patriotic" or not it is now happening on an unprecedented scale ... The Indo have reported that another €10bn has been pulled from Irish banks.


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## Igcuimhne81

Mommah said:


> My grandfather fought in the war of independance and in the civil war.
> He put his life at risk for this country, sacrificed his legal career and had to go "on the run" lived in the mountains being fed by locals.
> 
> What would he think if I move the bulk of my savings abroad.
> Would I be spitting on his grave?
> 
> Should we stand and fight this economic battle or run for the hills?


 
To put this into perspective, your grandfather fought in the Irish Civil War. Depending which side he fought on, he would have been perceived as unpatriotic by the other side.

So in a nutshell, look after yourself and your family first and foremost. If you come out of this on the greener side maybe you can lend a hand to those more unfortunate. That would be patriotic.


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## UFC

I couldn't care less that I am Irish. I was just born here. It could just as easily have been Algeria.

I am not "proud" to be Irish because that obviously makes no sense.

And I'm not going to keep my money in Irish banks out of "patriotism" because frankly I'm not a moron.


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## farmerette

UFC said:


> I couldn't care less that I am Irish. I was just born here. It could just as easily have been Algeria.
> 
> I am not "proud" to be Irish because that obviously makes no sense.
> 
> And I'm not going to keep my money in Irish banks out of "patriotism" because frankly I'm not a moron.


 

if everyone thought the same , the country would collapse , that would effect even those who managed to get thier money out of the state


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## Troy McClure

farmerette said:


> if everyone thought the same , the country would collapse , that would effect even those who managed to get thier money out of the state


 

Such is market sentiment. Why should the moral emphasis be put on depositers trying to protect themselves. Greed from bankers protected by an incompetent regulator and government ministers is the reason the country will collapse. 
No one in their right will lend to Irish banks, so as a conequence depositers are removing their deposits. The big institutional investors have bolted so the paltry savings of Irish individuals will make little difference to their balance sheets. These are zombie banks now with no chance of recovering. Some are even still in denial and resist reforms let alone overhaul.
Your deluding yourself to think anything else. Your deluding yourself to not think of your own self interest when clearly no one else is.
A banker full of G+T's on a Friday night would come up with something like this though..


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## tiger

farmerette said:


> if everyone thought the same , the country would collapse , that would effect even those who managed to get thier money out of the state


Unfortunately I think everyone does think the same, and has taken their money out of the country.  The banks have effectively collapsed, the ECB is keeping them on lifesupport.


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## thewatcher

Personally, I totally disagreed with cowen and lenihan policy's since day 1, they have made a bad situation a disaster, some would say to protect a small elite. until they are gone and people are brought to justice for this disaster , not a penny of my savings will be used to prop up this shambles of a regime, I would consider that the patriotic decision rather than propping up Anglo for 3% interest or whatever their paying.


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## shnaek

Troy McClure said:


> Why should the moral emphasis be put on depositers trying to protect themselves. Greed from bankers protected by an incompetent regulator and government ministers is the reason the country will collapse.


Well said. And the bankers, government and regulator are sailing off into the sun with bags full of our cash. If there is any better argument for small government and low taxes, I haven't heard it.
But we aren't the only country where deposits are fleeing. Seems to be a huge flow of money into switzerland at the moment.


----------



## valery

shnaek said:


> Well said. And the bankers, government and regulator are sailing off into the sun with bags full of our cash.
> 
> Get a grip.  Not too many of the 40,000 or so ordinary employees of the banks are joining this ship of fools.
> 
> If our indigenous banks fail, what foreign commercial banks will enter the Irish market.  The deposit holders currently moving their money into foreign investment banks are very short sighted.  Who will they or their family apply to for mortgages, working capital etc.


----------



## Firefly

valery said:


> shnaek said:
> 
> 
> 
> The deposit holders currently moving their money into foreign investment banks are very short sighted.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree and think they are right. I expect things to level off in the coming few years and there will be a mass return of deposits back into the country then.
Click to expand...


----------



## shnaek

valery said:


> Get a grip.


A bit of an overreaction, don't you think? There is no point in bringing pedantics into an online discussion, otherwise we end up needing to qualify everything we say. But if there's need for clarification of my point - there are far greater traitors in this country than depositors who fear for their savings. Moving money out of the country can be regarded as unpatriotic, but it is far from the front of the que of unpatriotic behaviour.


----------



## thewatcher

I would consider propping up a defunct regime equally unpatriotic , ff would have continued borrowing money off the ECB as long as they could even in to 2012 if they could have got away with it, all they could say was our European friends are fully behind us. It could be argued that people pulling deposits out of the country and forcing the ECB to act, leading the greens to wobble and pull down the govt was far more patriotic than propping up the current administration. We can now see all the rats jumping ship , now they know the game is up, a bunch of traitors this country has never seen IMHO.


----------



## Tintagel

farmerette said:


> if everyone thought the same , the country would collapse , that would effect even those who managed to get thier money out of the state


 
Do you honestly think that anyone gives a toss about you? Maybe some family and friends but nobody else. Look at what the VHI have done yesterday. Mary Harney in hiding. This government and it's cronies are laughing at you. They will sail off in to the sunset with their big pensions.

A U.K. government minister gets jail for fiddling his expenses. What happens to the scumbags wearing suits in this country?  Nothing.


----------



## Guest105

Tintagel said:


> Mary Harney in hiding. This government and it's cronies are laughing at you.


 

I suppose the next thing we will hear is that she is also tendering her resignation and good riddance to her if she does.


----------



## UFC

farmerette said:


> if everyone thought the same , the country would collapse , that would effect even those who managed to get thier money out of the state


 
The probem isn't people withdrawing their money. The problem is fractional reserve banking; the banks don't actually have the money owed to the depositors.

Everyone is entitled to do whatever they want with their money. Keeping it in virtually insolvent banks in a fairly corrupt country makes no sense.


----------



## Grizzly

cashier said:


> I suppose the next thing we will hear is that she is also tendering her resignation and good riddance to her if she does.


She was supposed to be the great white hope when she became minister of health. She took the salary, the expenses, the perks. We now have more people queing for trolleys than ever before.  I just want to see her gone.
Just like the bankers. They took the big salaries, the expenses, the perks and beat the little guys with bigger targets, month after month. Belittled you when you didn't perform. They strutted the corridors with an air of superiority. As my mother would have said "they smelled themselves". You couldn't find these guys on a Friday sfternoon because they were all off in L'Ecrivain or Guilbauds or Dobbins or similar.
Why should anyone support an incompetant company such as the VHI or any of the Irish banks?


----------



## thewatcher

Grizzly said:


> She was supposed to be the great white hope when she became minister of health. She took the salary, the expenses, the perks. We now have more people queing for trolleys than ever before.  I just want to see her gone.
> Just like the bankers. They took the big salaries, the expenses, the perks and beat the little guys with bigger targets, month after month. Belittled you when you didn't perform. They strutted the corridors with an air of superiority. As my mother would have said "they smelled themselves". You couldn't find these guys on a Friday sfternoon because they were all off in L'Ecrivain or Guilbauds or Dobbins or similar.
> Why should anyone support an incompetant company such as the VHI or any of the Irish banks?



Indeed, let them all go to hell, we won't get a decent country out of this mess with all the insiders and old guard still in place, it's carryon regardless for this crowd, next should be the entire senior civil service, the politicans know the game is up time for the rest of them.


----------



## BOXtheFOX

There are still lots of nice, decent, honest, reliable people out there. The problem is that we have all been battered and continue to be battered from all sides by uncaring, greedy, thoughtless and selfish people.
I intend to reflect back in the same manner as I am being treated from now on. This might be the selfish person who blocks the footpath with his car to the VHI lazy incompetants who couldn't be bothered to query a hospital bill on my behalf. Let's isolate these people and businesses and have nothing to do with them. My local Credit Union who decided to pay me nil interest this year has been the first in 2011 to fall by the wayside. Next is the NIB where the staff can't be bothered to make eye contact with me when I have a query or call to their branch.


----------



## Troy McClure

[/QUOTE]Get a grip. Not too many of the 40,000 or so ordinary employees of the banks are joining this ship of fools.

If our indigenous banks fail, what foreign commercial banks will enter the Irish market. The deposit holders currently moving their money into foreign investment banks are very short sighted. Who will they or their family apply to for mortgages, working capital etc.[/QUOTE]

A naive if somewhat emotional reaction I think. The thing is foreign banks entering market is essential for this to move on. EBS will shortly be in foreign ownership. If the banks get radical restructuring and AIB probably merge with BOI, with more respectable balance sheets, it wont be long before a few foreign predators start circling. Santander were already looking at BOI. When competent owners take over then the deposits will return as the country recovers with it. The fact that the boards of the current banks and the gov dont fill depositers with confidence to get from A to B with this is not depositors fault. 
Our indigenous banks have failed they are bankrupt and in case you didn't notice they have brought down the country. They are not lending anything of note because they are broke and no one wants to know them so they cant borrow. These depositors are not short sighted they are the smart proactive ones. The 40,000 employers will be nearly halved upon the insistance of the IMF restructuring. I know a couple of them who have moved their own savings... enough said


----------



## BOXtheFOX

Some of us were fooled by the EBS and their MUTUAL status banner that they produced for years to keep everyone quiet. No one got to hear the real inside story unless you worked there. Long before the Tiger this crowd were on a first name basis with the staff in Dobbins.  Yes...and they all got out just before the ship went down except for a portion of 40,000 decent ordinary staff that were left holding the can.


----------



## Chris

thewatcher said:


> ... not a penny of my savings will be used to prop up this shambles of a regime, I would consider that the patriotic decision rather than propping up Anglo for 3% interest or whatever their paying.





thewatcher said:


> I would consider propping up a defunct regime equally unpatriotic , ff would have continued borrowing money off the ECB as long as they could even in to 2012 if they could have got away with it, all they could say was our European friends are fully behind us. It could be argued that people pulling deposits out of the country and forcing the ECB to act, leading the greens to wobble and pull down the govt was far more patriotic than propping up the current administration. We can now see all the rats jumping ship , now they know the game is up, a bunch of traitors this country has never seen IMHO.


I fully agree with these posts. The most patriotic thing people can do is to vote with their feet and finally put banks out of their miserable state.



valery said:


> Get a grip.  Not too many of the 40,000 or so ordinary employees of the banks are joining this ship of fools.
> 
> If our indigenous banks fail, what foreign commercial banks will enter the Irish market.  The deposit holders currently moving their money into foreign investment banks are very short sighted.  Who will they or their family apply to for mortgages, working capital etc.


And how are people going to help their families and friends if the banks fail anyway, and theiy cannot access their money? 



UFC said:


> The probem isn't people withdrawing their money. The problem is fractional reserve banking; the banks don't actually have the money owed to the depositors.
> 
> Everyone is entitled to do whatever they want with their money. Keeping it in virtually insolvent banks in a fairly corrupt country makes no sense.


Absolutely 100% on the mark. It is crises like this that shows how feeble and fraudulent the fractional reserve system is. Banks are in a permanent state of insolvency, but protected by governments and their central banks. The risk of this is buttered over and completely ignored in the good times, but it is a huge risk nevertheless.


----------



## WizardDr

Every Euro taken out is Euro borrowed. Not only unpatriotic but sabotage.


----------



## roytheboyo

The fact that our fantastic government is jamming every qango/state board with its mates as we speak, is that unpatriotic/sabotage?
Anyone that doesnt take any few euros that they have out of this basketcase country deserves whats coming, and that is total collapse, new currency, devaluation etc.
There have been too many people suckling at the teat of mother Ireland, it finally dried up, but some of them keep on suckling.


----------



## shnaek

The peoples money does not belong to the government - the governments money belongs to the  people. Not only have our government been robbing us for years, but now they are embarrassing us too, and making us a laughing stock. I love this country, but it's hard to be patriotic to a corrupt incompetant joke. Bring on the revolution. Then we can be patriots once again.


----------



## BICIP

wizarddr said:


> every euro taken out is euro borrowed. Not only unpatriotic but sabotage.



+1


----------



## Troy McClure

WizardDr said:


> Every Euro taken out is Euro borrowed. Not only unpatriotic but sabotage.


 
spoken like a true banker. I forgot this is fault of the people of Ireland, how dare they think individually for them selves now


----------



## horusd

"unpatriotic" ? "Sabotage"? This hardly constitutes reasoned argument. Patriotism is to a nation not to a group of immoral institutions. Sabotage implies a deliberate attack to undermine or destroy something. Regarding the banking system, the banks, developers and the government needed no help from the people. Greed, incompetence and stupidity underpinned the current collapse. The public is already in massive hock ; immorally accepted on our behalf by a government with NO mandate to do this. And the people who seek to act prudently, wisely and in their own best interest, and that of their families, should now or even could now be accused by some of a lack of patriotism and sabotage? This beggars belief. Merkel mentioned recently that she adopted the attitude of a "hausfrau" (Housewife) to economics. Well done Mrs M. and well-done Germany. Pity we weren't so straight-up. We got " I'll spend it if I have it" and "light touch "( meaning virtually no touch) regulation. If there is a lack of patriotism or sabotage in Irish banking, it didn't come from Joe and Joanne Public. If there are fingers 2 be pointed, please point them in the right direction here.


----------



## BICIP

Who is funding the banks?? Us.. via IMF loans and central bank.... So when bank capital falls we the people are plugging the gap so therefore we the people ( including those not fortunate enough to have tens of thousands in the bank) plug the hole.


----------



## horusd

Transferring money abroad is a symptom of a lack of confidence in Irish banking, not the cause. It follows FROM a lack of faith in the Irish banks rather than being the cause. To claim otherwise is a logical fallacy ( which even has a latin name); _post-hoc ergo propter hoc_. X followed Y, therefore Y caused X. (this inference is fallacious and does not logically follow).Doubtless there is a case to say that ongoing withdrawals further undermine confidence, but the root of the problem is a justifiable lack of faith in the system itself, caused not by withdrawals but by systemic failures which must be addressed first before confidence can return. Claims of a lack of patriotism and sabotage merely muddy the waters. The Irish Constitution places special emphasis on the family in national life. Thus, if people act to protect their families by protecting their financial status and transfer money to safer, stronger, better regulated foreign banks, it can be argued that they are indeed acting in the ultimate national interest, as laid down by the Constitution.


----------



## iamaspinner

Who has sabotaged what??? Is abandoning ship (with an indecent amount of money) patriotic??? What about staying after having sabotaged the ship and prevent a change in command to try and stop it from sinking???


----------



## Chris

BICIP said:


> Who is funding the banks?? Us.. via IMF loans and central bank.... So when bank capital falls we the people are plugging the gap so therefore we the people ( including those not fortunate enough to have tens of thousands in the bank) plug the hole.


But the fact that the Irish public are on the hook for this debt is the problem in the first place. Private debts should have stayed private, there should have been precisely €0 gone towards saving any bank or their creditors.



horusd said:


> Transferring money abroad is a symptom of a lack of confidence in Irish banking, not the cause.  It follows FROM a lack of faith in the Irish banks rather than being the cause.


I have said this many times before, but never in so few and concise words.



horusd said:


> The Irish Constitution places special emphasis on the family in national life. Thus, if people act to protect their families by protecting their financial status and transfer money to safer, stronger, better regulated foreign banks, it can be argued that they are indeed acting in the ultimate national interest, as laid down by the Constitution.


Very good point! I never even thought of that.


----------



## kdoc

Money is being pulled from Irish banks and it's flowing into institutions like Rabo and Nationwide UK. But it seems to me that the latter can't operate in their present form without a functioning home-grown Irish banking system. As I understand it, it's not possible to operate an account in either of the above named banks without having an account in an Irish bank: deposits and withdrawals are mediated through the Irish banking system. What would happen in the event of a collapse of the Irish banks? How exactly could funds be accessed from the foreign owned banks?


----------



## Lightning

kdoc said:


> Money is being pulled from Irish banks and it's flowing into institutions like Rabo and Nationwide UK. But it seems to me that the latter can't operate in their present form without a functioning home-grown Irish banking system. As I understand it, it's not possible to operate an account in either of the above named banks without having an account in an Irish bank: deposits and withdrawals are mediated through the Irish banking system.



Kinda. Your current account can be held with any of the 5 banks that offer current accounts in Ireland. That includes 2 non Irish banks. Namely, NIB and Ulster Bank. 



kdoc said:


> What would happen in the event of a collapse of the Irish banks? How exactly could funds be accessed from the foreign owned banks?



In that unlikely event, you could still transfer money to NIB and Ulster. Also, it would not be hard for Rabo etc to allow international transfers.


----------



## MoolahVoodoo

Chris said:


> It is crises like this that shows how feeble and fraudulent the fractional reserve system is. Banks are in a permanent state of insolvency, but protected by governments and their central banks. The risk of this is buttered over and completely ignored in the good times, but it is a huge risk nevertheless.


I understand the concept of fractional reserve.  Can you help me join the dots with the Basel accord?  
At a bank in Ireland that I can't name, I was told by a Project Manager implementing I.T. changes that were required by Basel that senior managers were signing off that all changes had been completed when in fact they hadn't - they just wanted to wash their hands of the project.
I'm moving my Euros out of Ireland.  Seems too risky with all these "unprecedented" economic events that keep erupting.  Does anyone have positive/negative comments about the services of TransferMate?


----------



## kdoc

"In that unlikely event, you could still transfer money to NIB and Ulster. Also, it would not be hard for Rabo etc to allow international transfers".

Ciaran, if it's unlikely that Irish banks will go under, should we be getting our garters in a knot by joining in the present run on the banks? Maybe just some prudent diversification is all that's necessary for depositors.


----------



## Chris

MoolahVoodoo said:


> I understand the concept of fractional reserve.  Can you help me join the dots with the Basel accord?
> At a bank in Ireland that I can't name, I was told by a Project Manager implementing I.T. changes that were required by Basel that senior managers were signing off that all changes had been completed when in fact they hadn't - they just wanted to wash their hands of the project.



I'm not sure what was going on there, but the new rules under Basel III are not due for enforcement until 2013, and some of them not until 2019.


----------



## UFC

kdoc said:


> "In that unlikely event, you could still transfer money to NIB and Ulster. Also, it would not be hard for Rabo etc to allow international transfers".
> 
> Ciaran, if it's unlikely that Irish banks will go under, should we be getting our garters in a knot by joining in the present run on the banks? Maybe just some prudent diversification is all that's necessary for depositors.



Unlikely doesn't mean won't happen...


----------



## kdoc

Thats right: it means it's not likely to happen, be done, or be true.


----------



## Troy McClure

kdoc said:


> Maybe just some prudent diversification is all that's necessary for depositors.


 
This is ordinary peoples much needed savings not an investment portfolio. 

I guess some have far more than others to afford them the latitude of such expression.

Ordinary people are right to prioritise over their savings, and untill there is fundamental reforms made, protecting incumbents throughout the system should not be one of them.

Even prudent Germans are moving their money to the Swiss franc. That puts us into context!


----------



## Lightning

UFC said:


> Unlikely doesn't mean won't happen...



Totally agree. The risk is not zero.


----------



## kdoc

Ciaran the risk is not zero anywhere.


----------



## kdoc

I depend on mine probably more than most as I have no other form of income. 
Btw, elswhere on AAM, Brendan recommends reducing the risk by diversifying.


----------



## WizardDr

When the IMF were commenting on Irelands probelms with the Bond Markets - they used the word 'perception' about 14 times in their report. Why did they use that word?

When I read some of the detailed central bank, ESRI, Garret Fitzgerald, John Fitzgerald, Marc Coleman articles, I get a far more positive view of Ireland than maybe some of you. 

My money stays here - and if I had more I would be buying Irish Government Bonds. 

Every euro that leaves the domestic system has to be replaced ..by er borrowings. Confidence is relative.


----------



## UFC

WizardDr said:


> When the IMF were commenting on Irelands probelms with the Bond Markets - they used the word 'perception' about 14 times in their report. Why did they use that word?
> 
> When I read some of the detailed central bank, ESRI, Garret Fitzgerald, John Fitzgerald, *Marc Coleman* articles, I get a far more positive view of Ireland than maybe some of you.
> 
> My money stays here - and if I had more *I would be buying Irish Government Bonds.*
> 
> Every euro that leaves the domestic system has to be replaced ..by er borrowings. Confidence is relative.



Ah come on now...

Marc Coleman has proven himself to be completely awful at predicting anything ("The best is yet to come...") and you'd want to be mad to be investing your hard earned money in an Irish government bond...!

The reality is Ireland is totally broken. I'd even go as far as saying we are a Kleptocracy.


----------



## horusd

WizardDr said:


> When the IMF were commenting on Irelands probelms with the Bond Markets - they used the word 'perception' about 14 times in their report. Why did they use that word?
> 
> When I read some of the detailed central bank, ESRI, Garret Fitzgerald, John Fitzgerald, Marc Coleman articles, I get a far more positive view of Ireland than maybe some of you.
> 
> My money stays here - and if I had more I would be buying Irish Government Bonds.
> 
> Every euro that leaves the domestic system has to be replaced ..by er borrowings. Confidence is relative.


 

So in effect you are saying that based on your opinion, gleaned from your readings of various reports and commentators you find credible, you conclude that your money is secure. You are so certain you would even buy more bonds. Fair enough - it's your money & therefore your call.

But based on this line of argument, the issue of  patriotism isn't your motivation and doesn't arise, your judgement is based on your assessment of risk. You have made a judgement call, deemed it a safe bet, and acted on that. Consistent with the same line of argument you use, others who arrive at a different conclusion are perfectly entitled to do so.


----------



## WizardDr

Given that Government Gilts or Bonds have a fixed coupon, when we hear that bonds are yielding 7% then the original value of the bond say €100 is trading in the market at less than this say €80.  So if retail investors were able to buy these easily - when they are eevntually redeemed they will be at €100 as well an effective 7% return on the original investment. (THis is what Europe will eventually do - buy back the bonds at less tah face value and then we pay the par value. Why cant we do the same?)

The issue of patriotism does arise. Self  interest in this case is national sabotage whereas if it were looked at logically we could collectively all benefit.

People should read some of these reports - thats


----------



## old westie

On the basis that sterling is starting to get weak against the Euro, we can expect a flow of Euro's out of ireland into Northern Ireland.
One would be much safer with your money outside the pigs grouping of euro members. As regards patriotism there is not much of it evident in the EU, they borrow money for about 2-3 % and then give it to us at 5-6 % in OUR hour of need. Protect oneself.


----------



## Troy McClure

WizardDr said:


> Given that Government Gilts or Bonds have a fixed coupon, when we hear that bonds are yielding 7% then the original value of the bond say €100 is trading in the market at less than this say €80. So if retail investors were able to buy these easily - when they are eevntually redeemed they will be at €100 as well an effective 7% return on the original investment. (THis is what Europe will eventually do - buy back the bonds at less tah face value and then we pay the par value. Why cant we do the same?)
> 
> The issue of patriotism does arise. Self interest in this case is national sabotage whereas if it were looked at logically we could collectively all benefit.
> 
> People should read some of these reports - thats


 
Sounds like advice from someone at the dept of finance... Now tell us the IMF sre not really here. The issue of patriotism arose when useless politicians and bankers threw caution, and the country's future, to the wind for their own needs. The National sabotage was back then.



International Institutional depositors removed 70billion from Irish banks in 2010. Small depositors removed 14billion.. and you call them unpatriotic. With such a reality they would be foolish to do otherwise. The Irish banking system is a zombie now and small depositors will make little difference to that now. However they would be idiots to be the last man standing. A position they are already taking up as the taxpayers paying for the bailout for these crooks. 

Marc Coleman LOL! the author of the 'best is yet to come'... that book was a look into the future!! LOL

Please!.. wake up!


----------



## WizardDr

Troy

Given that I wrote about Ireland property prices being overdone in 2001 - just maybe ...you ought to read some of the material ..


----------



## Troy McClure

WizardDr said:


> Troy
> 
> Given that I wrote about Ireland property prices being overdone in 2001 - just maybe ...you ought to read some of the material ..


 
Oh! That makes a big difference. silly me!!

Reason is not subjective unless there is vestive interest. It's not me that seems to have an inability to listen.


----------



## horusd

WizardDr said:


> The issue of patriotism does arise. Self interest in this case is national sabotage whereas if it were looked at logically we could collectively all benefit.


 

Wizard, believe me when I say I am not being pedantic, but:

1. What you view as being in the "national interest" is based on your belief in one potential scenario. But what you suggest & believe is not neccessarily true. A neccessarily true statement is one which cannot be false without being a contradiction (a tautology), ie all black dogs are black. Others may arrive validly at a different conclusion, and a different interpretation of patriotism.

2. Sabotage implies a deliberate, knowing and concerted effort on the part of a single person or group to destroy or undermine something. This simply does not apply in this context because clearly people moving their money abroad are not motivated by an intent to sabotage anything, Rather they are motivated by concerns & worries. Nor are they acting in concert with each other to sabotage anything. It would be more correct to say that the effect of withdrawals may be determential to Irish banking and it may be in all our interests to act as you suggest - but that is a different statement altogether. And one I wouldn't neccessarily disagree with _per se_.

Using emotive terms like patriotism & sabotage in this context and in such absolute ways is not helpful.


----------



## UFC

horusd said:


> Wizard, believe me when I say I am not being pedantic, but:
> 
> 1. What you view as being in the "national interest" is based on your belief in one potential scenario. But what you suggest & believe is not neccessarily true. A neccessarily true statement is one which cannot be false without being a contradiction (a tautology), ie all black dogs are black. Others may arrive validly at a different conclusion, and a different interpretation of patriotism.
> 
> 2. Sabotage implies a deliberate, knowing and concerted effort on the part of a single person or group to destroy or undermine something. This simply does not apply in this context because clearly people moving their money abroad are not motivated by an intent to sabotage anything, Rather they are motivated by concerns & worries. Nor are they acting in concert with each other to sabotage anything. It would be more correct to say that the effect of withdrawals may be determential to Irish banking and it may be in all our interests to act as you suggest - but that is a different statement altogether. And one I wouldn't neccessarily disagree with _per se_.
> 
> Using emotive terms like patriotism & sabotage in this context and in such absolute ways is not helpful.



Stop talking sense, you're not allowed do that on the internet...


----------



## WizardDr

What irritates me is instead of commenting on issues, some posters here think attacking the poster is a clever strategy. All it does is maybe confirm that some views where they conflict with your own are less solid than you originally think - get personal and that will sort it out.

Anyway here is another view:
[This view may help those who feel 'patriotism' and 'sabotage' are too emotive. The result of people moving their deposits will lead to further dependency on Europe ...er..that sounds really weak compared to hair raising sabotage. ]



Eurozone rescue fund hopes lift bond investors – David Oakley – Financial Times 25/1/11

•	Speculation that there are plans to give the €440bn European financial stability facility more firepower.
•	Improvements in market since start of year are based on this.
•	One option - Increase its ability to issue AAA securities from €225bn as this is the amount guaranteed by the countries with that rating but would need national parliament ratification.
•	2nd option   Giving EFSF powers to buy government and bank bonds of countries running into difficulties. This would be very effective. Also peripheral countries could also buy back their own debt at market prices –which are trading at hefty discounts to issue prices – by using loans from EFSF.
•	This would immediately help the Debt/GDP ratio.
•	This could see bond prices rise to eliminate what is effectively arbitrage.
•	Third option is to lower the cost of bailout loans which would directly facilitate the banking situation.


----------



## WizardDr

So if every EURO moving out of the systen has to be replaced..what is the solution ..and UFC & Troy ..lets hear some of your suggestions - if you have any.


----------



## Troy McClure

The personal approach didn't work for you then. One gets the impression you simply don’t see the point. It's a dogma with a slant I'll give ya that. Might not be the real world but I don’t think that’s important to you.

We ARE completely dependent on Europe. Make your peace with that. We are broke and our banks are broke and have not functioned for over a year now. The importance of replacing every Euro was only an issue a year ago. It makes no difference now. The institutional investors, which were paramount, are gone.

As for 'Euro zone rescue fund hopes lift bond investors' quote, this has nothing to do with Ireland. Which explains why Irish bond yields are consistently still over 9%. 
Whats right for Europe is not whats right for Ireland. Which explains their insistence on not wanting to burn senior bondholders. They are way more concerned with European banks getting burned than rescuing Ireland. European banks are owed over 110billion by Irish banks. This is the only reason they ECB supported Irish banks. Now they want the Irish taxpayer to pay for it. These banks are completely knackered and they are pulling down the state. 

You talk like they can regain a workable balance sheet with John Doe deposits. You can run with that if you like, but I believe that massively misguided and will not keep money in these banks, until the are hugely restructured with new owners. The same senior bondholders whom the taxpayer is bailing out want nothing to do with these banks now, but you think we should. The taxpayer is taking their risk, so they should risk their savings also? Not Realistic

Unless the the term of the 'bailout' Loan is put out over 20 years instead of 4 or the interest rate is reduced we are going to default. 

The sovereign WILL default under current conditions. It's just way too much for Ireland to handle. Depositors will very likely be on the hook. I will think of you on that day. I suggest stop quoting the people you want to believe or that have little revelence to Ireland, but look at what is actually unfolding here.


----------



## kdoc

In the event of default or restructuring would having your money in foreign banks based in Ireland make any difference?


----------



## horusd

kdoc said:


> In the event of default or restructuring would having your money in foreign banks based in Ireland make any difference?


 
kdoc, possible default is being discussed in other thread. http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=150236


----------



## WizardDr

@Troy

So if the budget deficit disappeared and we were in surplus ..as in repaying rather than borrowing..you are of the view that the bank bailout will still take down the country?

Right I get your thinking now.


----------



## Troy McClure

And if my aunt had liathroidí, she'd be my uncle.. 

This is as unlikely to happen however as the buget deficit disappearing. 

In the real world we are going to go broke before we hit any surplus.
It's not a bailout it's a 'Loan' and it wont cunjure any Uncles regardless of how you try dress the poor auld Aunt.


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## bullworth

Its' unpatriotic for a citizen to leave his money under the control of traitorous crooks. Each citizen who allows his wealth to be destroyed and stolen has an accumulative effect resulting in Ireland becoming a nation of paupers. The worst is yet to come. Protect what you have against fraud, against theft, against unfair taxes and against inflation.


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## celebtastic

Good article in the Sunday Times Money section today on where to get the best rates on offshore accounts, and how to open an account in Germany


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