# George Lee Resigns?



## ney001 (8 Feb 2010)

That was quick!


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## Teatime (8 Feb 2010)

ney001 said:


> That was quick!


 
That just sums up the ability of the opposition if Lee is prepared to desert the winning ticket for the next election. Disaster for FG and Kenny.


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## aonfocaleile (8 Feb 2010)

A PR nightmare for Fine Gael. It would indicate to me that there is no way on earth Richard Bruton is going to be detached from his role as FG finance spokesman. A short sighted stance from FG. Getting Lee to join the party and win the election was a good move for them but if they can't look after their internal affairs when in opposition, what hope have when/if they have to run the country? To me, it points to a party in disarray, especially when combined with the fact that Enda Kenny felt the need to apologise to his parliamentary party for his recent poor performances.


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## TarfHead (8 Feb 2010)

from the Irish Times on Saturday ..

"_Willie O’Dea, made the following observation about George in his soaraway Sindo column last week: “I suppose George is Fine Gael’s bidet. None of them know precisely how to use him, but they feel he adds a bit of class._"


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## Purple (8 Feb 2010)

I admire him for doing it.


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## Purple (8 Feb 2010)

TarfHead said:


> from the Irish Times on Saturday ..
> 
> "_Willie O’Dea, made the following observation about George in his soaraway Sindo column last week: “I suppose George is Fine Gael’s bidet. None of them know precisely how to use him, but they feel he adds a bit of class._"



Brilliant!


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## Sunny (8 Feb 2010)

Didn't realise he was giving up his seat as well. Have to say, it wouldn't really encourage anyone who felt they had something to offer to make the move into public life would it. Can only imagine the frustration of party politics.


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## liaconn (8 Feb 2010)

Apparently a lot of noses were out of joint in FG (not least Leo Varadker's) when he was catapulted in and talked about as a possible future Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment. I don't think they exactly rolled out the red carpet for him. Very, very shortsighted of them.


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## mathepac (8 Feb 2010)

Full statement - [broken link removed]


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## liaconn (8 Feb 2010)

Talk over on politics.ie that he might start a new party.


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## Sunny (8 Feb 2010)

liaconn said:


> Talk over on politics.ie that he might start a new party.


 
About time that someone tried it. There is a large amount of apathy out there in relation to the exisiting parties. Difficult to achieve anything but it would make things interesting.


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## jhegarty (8 Feb 2010)

liaconn said:


> Talk over on politics.ie that he might start a new party.



Would that not have been easier if he kept his seat ?


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## Latrade (8 Feb 2010)

> However, I do not believe I would be serving the electorate honestly if I were to continue allowing my efforts and mandate to be used to promote and market economic policies into which I have had no input.


 
Get the impression he isn't the biggest fan of the policies either. It's one thing to have had no input when the policies are good. 

I always thought this was a car crash in waiting for FG. Since Lee came along, Bruton has dropped off the radar a bit or at least didn't seem as confident which was a pity as he tended to be the FG person with some semblance of being competent.


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## liaconn (8 Feb 2010)

Maybe he feels it would be unethical given that he won it as a FG representative. (Yes, I know. But he is different from the average politician.)
Sorry, answer to jhegarty's post..


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## Sunny (8 Feb 2010)

George and Charlie back on RTE. Its just like reeling in the years!


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## DB74 (8 Feb 2010)

Horrific news for FG - Party looks in disarray

It'll be an interesting by-election with Shay Brennan just 1,000 1st pref votes behind Alex White (LAB) 9 months ago.


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## Teatime (8 Feb 2010)

liaconn said:


> Talk over on politics.ie that he might start a new party.


 
About time, sign me up!


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## liaconn (8 Feb 2010)

Sunny said:


> George and Charlie back on RTE. Its just like reeling in the years!


 
Maybe he'll go to Washington to replace Charlie.


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## Vanilla (8 Feb 2010)

liaconn said:


> Talk over on politics.ie that he might start a new party.


 
Surely he wouldn't have quit his seat if he were thinking of starting a new political party.

But yes, it would be great to see a new party with a pre-requisite for candidates to be actually qualified in some way to run the country. Candidates with a proven track record in academia, business and so on, not just with family connections or sporting backgrounds.


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## liaconn (8 Feb 2010)

Apparently Kenny offered him a seat on the frontbench if he agreed to stay.


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## Staples (8 Feb 2010)

It's probably less of a surprise than his decision to run in the first place.

I know it reflects badly on FG but surely it raises questions on what exactly he thought he was getting into and what he thought his role would be.

He should have sought assurances at the outset on how exactly he would be deployed if elected.  Did he just assume that everyone would just fawn over him and bow to his undoubted insights and expertise?


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## dave28 (8 Feb 2010)

George GLEE ???? ............................ George FLEE  !!!!!!!


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## Allen (8 Feb 2010)

He was very naive having spent a sheltered life in RTE.  

He doesn’t have the ability to push himself to the front in the rough and tumble of politics.


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## ney001 (8 Feb 2010)

Quitting after nine months is ridiculous in any scenario - what did he think? that he'd be the saviour of the country within the first couple of months?? He's stamping his feet now because he found out he's not as important as he'd like to think he is!.  RTE is a better fit for him!


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## Sunny (8 Feb 2010)

Can he go back onto RTE though and start reporting on economic matters? I am not sure he can because no matter what he does, he will be accused of bias!

George Lee for Washington as someone mentioned above is more likely in my opinion.


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## becky (8 Feb 2010)

Sunny said:


> George Lee for Washington as someone mentioned above is more likely in my opinion.


 
I don't think that's an runner as he has a young family.  Am I the only one who thinks there's more to it?


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## liaconn (8 Feb 2010)

I think a lot of it had to do with begrudgery within the party. A lot of TDs seem to think that as long as they do their time and graft away on constituency issues, then this is sufficient for them to be 'entitled' to a Ministry or a high profile position at national level, regardless of their qualifications (or lack thereof) for these jobs.


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## callybags (8 Feb 2010)

I think George may have recently noticed that the economy is showing small signs of recovering ( green shoots, anyone? ) and as his whole reasong for existing is to profess on doom and gloom, he feels he has nothing constructive to offer any more.

On a more serious note, I think his decision to resign his seat is a major insult to everyone who voted for him.


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## Brendan Burgess (8 Feb 2010)

> The reality, however, is that despite my best efforts I have had virtually no influence or input into shaping Fine Gael's economic policies at this most critical time.


I debated the cap on bankers' salaries and Colm Doherty's appointment to MD of AIB with him on RTE radio some time ago. He was very uncomfortable. He was obviously throwing out the party line, but didn't believe in what he was saying.

I asked him afterwards and he told me that I was free to say what I liked - he had to say the party line, whether he believed it or not. 

I asked him about the Dail debate on NAMA where I was interested in hearing what he had to say. He spoke for about 10 minutes with around 1800 minutes of Dail time in total. I could see real frustration in the guy. 

I suspect that he also saw that the Government has moved back on the right economic track and this has taken the wind out of the opposition's sails. 

It is shocking that FG could not reorganise things to accommodate someone like George Lee. 

Brendan


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## Sunny (8 Feb 2010)

Brendan said:


> I debated the cap on bankers' salaries and Colm Doherty's appointment to MD of AIB with him on RTE radio some time ago. He was very uncomfortable. He was obviously throwing out the party line, but didn't believe in what he was saying.
> 
> I asked him afterwards and he told me that I was free to say what I liked - he had to say the party line, whether he believed it or not.
> 
> ...


 
I agree. I was dissapointed with him since he joined but I guess I didn't take into account that he was constrained by party politics to such an extent. I was glad to see him enter politics because I think we need to see more people like him enter public life but I guess the system is not set up for someone like him.


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## Latrade (8 Feb 2010)

Brendan said:


> I asked him afterwards and he told me that I was free to say what I liked - he had to say the party line, whether he believed it or not.


 
I sympathise with him and he was probably promised more say in things, but to some extent the same restriction is on every single TD or member of any organisation with a specific agenda, even journalists have to stick to editorial lines. 

I suppose, the point is why accept the offer when this was always going to be the case. Did he feel or was he led to believe there'd be an exception made for him?


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## Sunny (8 Feb 2010)

Latrade said:


> I sympathise with him and he was probably promised more say in things, but to some extent the same restriction is on every single TD or member of any organisation with a specific agenda, even journalists have to stick to editorial lines.
> 
> I suppose, the point is why accept the offer when this was always going to be the case. Did he feel or was he led to believe there'd be an exception made for him?


 
I think we all have taken jobs where the roles and responsibilities end up being a bit less than what we were promised or hoped for. I admire him for admitting it. He could have sat there for the next few years (no problem getting elected again) and built up a nice pension. Having said that, it is easier to hold the moral high ground when you have a job waiting for you back in RTE.


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## Latrade (8 Feb 2010)

Sunny said:


> I think we all have taken jobs where the roles and responsibilities end up being a bit less than what we were promised or hoped for. I admire him for admitting it. He could have sat there for the next few years (no problem getting elected again) and built up a nice pension. Having said that, it is easier to hold the moral high ground when you have a job waiting for you back in RTE.


 
I suppose, and I do sympathise and respect his decision, just I can't help  feel that based on Brendan's anecdote there's a bit of Lee feeling sorry for himself when that particular issue should have been evident to all but the greenest individual.

Maybe the realities of being a TD also had an effect, such as the locals popping in and asking can he sort out the local bus route or help sort their Mick with a job.


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## Purple (8 Feb 2010)

Whatever it may or may not say about George Lee it speaks volumes about FG. If they can’t hold onto such a high profile TD in opposition how the heck are they going to keep a coalition government together? 
Lee may or may not have behaved like a spoiled child (I don’t think he did) but FG have displayed unbelievable political ineptitude.


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## DerKaiser (8 Feb 2010)

callybags said:


> On a more serious note, I think his decision to resign his seat is a major insult to everyone who voted for him.


 
Absolutely.  

Resigning his seat is ridiculous.  With the slim government majority there are other ways to wield influence than through the FG ranks e.g. his vote could be the difference between 2 more years of the current government or a more imminent election.  

He got elected on personality and his anti-government stance.  It wasn't about FG so the least he could do is stand on as an opposition voice.

He's lost every shred of respect in my opinion.


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## Sunny (8 Feb 2010)

Latrade said:


> Maybe the realities of being a TD also had an effect, such as the locals popping in and asking can he sort out the local bus route or help sort their Mick with a job.


 
I would say there was some of that as well. It would wreck my head.


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## liaconn (8 Feb 2010)

> whatever it may or may not say about george lee it speaks volumes about fg. If they can’t hold onto such a high profile td in opposition how the heck are they going to keep a coalition government together?
> Lee may or may not have behaved like a spoiled child (i don’t think he did) but fg have displayed unbelievable political ineptitude




+1.


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## demoivre (8 Feb 2010)

I barely noticed Lee in Politics. He made no impression whatsoever imo and is not there long enough to have any long term adverse effect on FG.


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## DerKaiser (8 Feb 2010)

demoivre said:


> I barely noticed Lee in Politics. He made no impression whatsoever imo and is not there long enough to have any long term adverse effect on FG.


 
I'd agree. The general consensus that politicians are gombeens is unfounded in most cases. Can people genuinely say that George Lee was a more accomplished economist than Richard Bruton?

At the end of the day he was a celebrity economics journalist. Given the platform he had it wasn't hard to sound sensible. It was probably a different story when he came up against better briefed and most accomplished associates.

Resigning FG is one thing after 9 months but resigning his seat shows sheer arrogance, unless there is something deeper going on.


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## liaconn (8 Feb 2010)

demoivre said:


> I barely noticed Lee in Politics. He made no impression whatsoever imo and is not there long enough to have any long term adverse effect on FG.


 
I think he's shown up the fact that FG are not interested in talent or qualifications or areas of expertise but still have this 'I was here first' mentality when it comes to appointments and decision making. Not a great image for a party that has been hammering FF over croneyism and jobs for the boys.


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## Sunny (8 Feb 2010)

DerKaiser said:


> I'd agree. The general consensus that politicians are gombeens is unfounded in most cases. Can people genuinely say that George Lee was a more accomplished economist than Richard Bruton?
> 
> At the end of the day he was a celebrity economics journalist. Given the platform he had it wasn't hard to sound sensible. It was probably a different story when he came up against better briefed and most accomplished associates.


 
To be fair, George Lee was more than a celebrity economics journalist. He is an actual trained economist with real experience in the field albeit a long time ago so I find it hard to believe that he met many better briefed and accomplished associates in the Dail.


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## corkgal (8 Feb 2010)

Maybe he will run for president when Mary is finished?


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## DB74 (8 Feb 2010)

What's the point in holding onto his seat if he feels that he can't accomplish anything as an independent.

The guy clearly has no interest in getting hospitals and schools built in his constituency merely to get elected time and time again until pension time - he wanted to have a bigger overall influence.

There is a lot of cynicism about a guy who resigned over his principles - how many politicians can we say that about?


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## fobs (8 Feb 2010)

DB74 said:


> What's the point in holding onto his seat if he feels that he can't accomplish anything as an independent.
> 
> The guy clearly has no interest in getting hospitals and schools built in his constituency merely to get elected time and time again until pension time - he wanted to have a bigger overall influence.
> 
> There is a lot of cynicism about a guy who resigned over his principles - how many politicians can we say that about?


 
Agreed. It would be easy to stay but he was a man of principle and FG wasted and oppertunity to show that they are differenent to FF and that is is what you know rather than who you know but they fluffed it. 

They reckoned they could keep George in the background and bring him out for effect at election time but George wasn't willing to play ball!


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## carpedeum (8 Feb 2010)

Fine Gael is made up of a lot of teachers, farmers, vintners, auctioneers, solicitors etc. They are not a policy and solution driven party because of a lack of expertise. Alan Dukes and Garret met similar frustrations. George Lee was an injection of specific expertise into Fine Gael, which they failed to utilize. Fine Fail have smilar lack of depth and range of skills, but, being in government they can tap into the expertise, especially economic and fiscal, available within the public service and supportive bodies such as the ESRI. What politics and the Dáil need is people with in depth and relevant knowledge and skills in economics, commerce, education planning and administration, international trade etc. Thereis something fundamentally wrong with Dáil procedures when George Lee was restricted to 10 minutes during the Nama debate!

I am not affiliated to any party. It is sad that George Lee was stifled and I fear it will discourage other intelligent, self-confident and educated people to make the personal sacrifices and enter politics.


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## cork (8 Feb 2010)

He should have gone independnt + done a deal with Cowan.

Why he did not do a "Gregory deal" beggers belief.

He has his safe job bad at the RTE ranch - a luxery 400k plus don't have.


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## cork (8 Feb 2010)

corkgal said:


> Maybe he will run for president when Mary is finished?



Yep and they'd be wondering if he'd resign into the term.


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## DB74 (8 Feb 2010)

cork said:


> He should have gone independnt + done a deal with Cowan.
> 
> Why he did not do a "Gregory deal" beggers belief.


 
Because maybe he's not a whore out to sell his soul to the highest bidder.


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## UFC (8 Feb 2010)

callybags said:


> I think George may have recently noticed that the economy is showing small signs of recovering ( green shoots, anyone? )


 
Our economy most definitely is not showing signs of recovering. We are still on a downwards slope. (We can't "recover" to a bubble. What we are currently experiencing is a correction.)

Fair play to George. I hope he does set up a new party (based on competence). We desperately need one.


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## Yorrick (8 Feb 2010)

Fine Gael are noted for individual TDs hoarding their seat in the constituency and not making an effort to gain an additional seat. This really is a disaster for FG and after the absymal performance of Kenny on the Late Late and Newstalk it completely undermines any credibility he would have.
Kenny is trying to be too cute on issues such as water charges, public service pay cuts etc. Linehan said what had to be done and went ahead even though it was very unpopular. Gilmore wont touch him with a forty foot pole now. A FF Lab coalition is coming ?


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## Lex Foutish (8 Feb 2010)

I cannot believe the number of posts on this thread already. It says a lot about AAM members. All concerned about George Lee and Irish politics and not a single word about Bradgelina's statement, issued this evening, saying that they're not splitting up.

A bit of perspective please, lads!!!!!!!


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## Deiseblue (8 Feb 2010)

A coward who has betrayed his constituents and has now advised RTE that he is prepared to return , we can only presume that Dustin is contemplating retirement  ?


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## UFC (8 Feb 2010)

Deiseblue said:


> A coward...


 
That's quite harsh.

Surely it would have been easier for him to continue doing nothing and getting a huge salary for it?

I interpret what he did as either a child having a tantrum or someone with principles taking a stand. I don't know the man so I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt and believing the latter option...


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## Purple (8 Feb 2010)

UFC said:


> That's quite harsh.
> 
> Surely it would have been easier for him to continue doing nothing and getting a huge salary for it?
> 
> I interpret what he did as either a child having a tantrum or someone with principles taking a stand. I don't know the man so I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt and believing the latter option...


+1 It may have been a bit of both.


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## Capt. Beaky (8 Feb 2010)

Totally out of depth in politics. Did he not do a little analysis about ploitics/party line stuff before the fanfare? Naivety/idealism has undone many a good person. Still, it was big of him to walk ........ unless he's doing an Ivan Yates.


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## Purple (8 Feb 2010)

Capt. Beaky said:


> Still, it was big of him to walk ........ unless he's doing an Ivan Yates.


 Well if he gets George Hook off the air it will all have been worth it!


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## Capt. Beaky (8 Feb 2010)

Purple said:


> Well if he gets George Hook off the air it will all have been worth it!


+1 million


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## Duke of Marmalade (8 Feb 2010)

This is a career move.  9 months ago the coalition had Lisbon, Nama and the Budget ahead of them.  Smart money was the government would fall.  Now we know it will not fall and might even win the next election.  

Lee misjudged, it is now time to take the parachute back to RTE. Lee's argument that he was surprised that Enda only wanted him for his body and not for his gigantic economic intellect doesn't cut any ice with me.


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## demoivre (8 Feb 2010)

Capt. Beaky said:


> Totally out of depth in politics. Did he not do a little analysis about ploitics/party line stuff before the fanfare? Naivety/idealism has undone many a good person. Still, it was big of him to walk ........ unless he's doing an Ivan Yates.



Yates was a massive loss to FG , far bigger than Lee would ever be. Had you had Yates at the helm over the last decade instead of two of the most boring people alive ie Noonan and Kenny, FG would be in a far stronger position going forward imo.


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## Lex Foutish (8 Feb 2010)

demoivre said:


> Yates was a massive loss to FG , far bigger than Lee would ever be. Had you had Yates at the helm over the last decade instead of two of the most boring people alive ie Noonan and Kenny, *FG would be in a far stronger position going forward imo*.


 
And people like myself might vote for them. I couldn't vote for a party that might put Enda Kenny in as Taoiseach. 

I wonder did it come too late for it to be covered on The Frontline tonight? New time of 9:35 pm. Vincent Browne should be worth watching tonight too, I reckon.


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## Brendan Burgess (8 Feb 2010)

No. it's not too late. George Lee will be on Frontline.


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## MrMan (8 Feb 2010)

How can people say they want Lee to start a new political party? He has 9 months experience, has little to show for his time and has bailed out at the first hurdle. Posters speak about having qualified people in power but Lee just shows that being qualified in your field is only a bit part in the whole makeup of a politician.
I don't think anyone can realisitcally expect to achieve their goals within 9 months of taking a position and if he felt he had to toe the line as Brendan says then he could have taken a maverick approach and taken a few risks. He was viewed as a coup by Fine Gael so they were hardly about to clamp down on him if he did push his own agenda to the fore. 
He will play for sympathy, which he deserves if he simply was not up to the task, but I feel he didn't see it paning out in his favour and jumped to suit his own end rather than the needs of his country.


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## Brendan Burgess (8 Feb 2010)

He was impressive on Frontline, but...

If someone tells me that they are unhappy in a new job, I tell them go to the boss and tell them so. Tell them why you feel undervalued and frustrated. 

FG are saying that he produced no policies or suggestions. He may have felt a bit above the ordinary politicians. 

He should have sat down with Bruton and Kenny and said, this is the role I would like to play. I want to be making policy. 

Pat Kenny tonight clamped down on any discussion of policy. I wonder is there some major policy disagreement. For example, George supports the Budget or NAMA and this would make him completely out of place in Fine Gael. 

Brendan


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## sunrock (8 Feb 2010)

Purple said:


> Well if he gets George Hook off the air it will all have been worth it!


 
George Hook is on after the frontline programme in Hook IN HAITI.

I am very disappointed in GEORGE LEE. HE comes across as a pathetic and petulant man.It is hard to believe his excuses for quitting politics.It is up to him to write his policy papers and present them to the media if he sees fit.
The FRONTLINE programme never explained what he would like to do differently than Bruton or Linehan. I doubt if he would recommend any painful solutions like making people work for their dole or huge pay cuts for well paid public servants like those in RTE.
O.K. EnDA is not the most brillant man but he is good at opposition and in upping the vote for his party. The political system is by nature full of politicians who are watching their seats more than the countrys problems but that is democracy. Mr Lee had a unique chance of making a difference but I am afraid he bottled it.


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## Conan (8 Feb 2010)

I'm depressed.


I was delighted George Lee ran for the Dail
I voted for George (honest)
It was the only way I could be sure of not seeing his depressing reports on RTE every night
Now I fear he will be back on RTE
I was not impressed by his performance on Frontline. Just because he was a "celebrity"  does not mean he should expect to change policy within 9 months. If that's what he wanted, did no one tell him that Fine Gael were in opposition (not in Government). 
Like many celebrities, George seems to forget that:


He reported the news
He did not make the news
Just because he was on RTE every night (happy to be reporting on the misery of it all), did not put him above everybody else
Katie Price is a "celebrity" but I would go to her for macro economic advice
Ivan Yates and the political analyst in the audience has it spot on. George threw the toys out of the pram. Even after listening to him I still could not figure out what his problem was (other than Richard Bruton would not spend all his time consulting with George).  When it comes to economics, Richard Bruton is head and shoulders above any of the so called economic TD's. 

And to make things worse, we will now have both George Lee and Charlie Bird back on our screens every night. Holy God is there no respite.


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## Sue Ellen (9 Feb 2010)

Conan said:


> And to make things worse, we will now have both George Lee and Charlie Bird back on our screens every night. Holy God is there no respite.



Best laugh this year


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## Purple (9 Feb 2010)

_Off topic stuff and responses to it delted it.

Please stay on topic

Brendan_


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## Bronte (9 Feb 2010)

George Lee resigned from FG and resigned his seat.  That's the honourable thing to do, he was elected on the FG ticket (even if people voted for him for other reasons).

How pathetic that Enda Kenny couldn't even hold on to a top vote getter like Lee who in addition had a great media presence.  What does that say about Kenny and his leadership.  FG have been handed the electors on a plate without doing a thing, a government that has brought Ireland to it's knees, corruption everywhere and still FG are in the opposition.


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## Brendan Burgess (9 Feb 2010)

Conan said:


> .  When it comes to economics, Richard Bruton is head and shoulders above any of the so called economic TD's.
> 
> .



Hi Conan

I have heard people whom I respect say this before. But I have never noticed anything smart about Richard Bruton. Is he not the same as all othe opposition TDs? Opposing what the government proposes? Has he produced some brilliant independent economic analysis which I have missed?


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## Latrade (9 Feb 2010)

Brendan said:


> He was impressive on Frontline, but...
> 
> If someone tells me that they are unhappy in a new job, I tell them go to the boss and tell them so. Tell them why you feel undervalued and frustrated.


 
Couldn't agree more. 

I think there's more to this. Even at the start it was obvious there would be resentment by his parachuting. Groups can be quite petty when they want to and I can absolutely believe his statements of isolation. 

Overall I think there was a clash of Lee's expectations of his role and that of a TD in combination with what EK may have promised. All may have had little basis in reality.

The main thing for me is that this is actually a small story or at least, Lee's celebrity aside, just a TD resigning. While some aspects make it relatively unique, the time served and hype prior to the election, it's still a small but interesting story. Yet if EK doesn't handle this right it could escalate for him and he loses control. And given he could easily have nipped it all in the bud yesterday and didn't, suggests EK isn't going to handle this well at all. 

All it would have needed was one small magnanimous response. Instead Cowen got in there first (hardly containing himself with laughter) and every FG representative came out with the same line criticising Lee. Whether he deserved it or not, it only fuels the media fire. Plus they seem to be under the delusion that every one of those votes was a swing from FF to FG and not from Brennan to Lee.

As it all went on last night I'd say there were two people who cracked open a bottle of the good whiskey: Cowen and Bruton.


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## Sunny (9 Feb 2010)

Brendan said:


> Hi Conan
> 
> I have heard people whom I respect say this before. But I have never noticed anything smart about Richard Bruton. Is he not the same as all othe opposition TDs? Opposing what the government proposes? Has he produced some brilliant independent economic analysis which I have missed?


 
I think it is because he comes across as knowing what he is talking about. Sometimes when politicians speak on matters like this they come across as simply repeating a brief that was handed to them (Brian Lenihan when he started). To be fair to FG, their last budget submission wasn't bad for an opposition party in that it was fairly realistic. Certainly made mince meat of the Labour Party's one in contrast. Having said that, I don't think he would make a good leader.


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## Sunny (9 Feb 2010)

Latrade said:


> The main thing for me is that this is actually a small story or at least, Lee's celebrity aside, just a TD resigning. While some aspects make it relatively unique, the time served and hype prior to the election, it's still a small but interesting story. Yet if EK doesn't handle this right it could escalate for him and he loses control. And given he could easily have nipped it all in the bud yesterday and didn't, suggests EK isn't going to handle this well at all.


 
I agree to a certain degree but I think people are interested because here was a guy who rightly or wrongly felt he had something to offer in helping the main opposition party develop economic policies that would help Ireland get out of the mess that they are in and so decided to enter political life. I think the fact that 8 months later, he feels like he done nothing except being used as a PR exercise by the party speaks volumes for Irish politics. If you are going to be bringing in high profile candidates who FG claimed was brought in for his economic skills, then why would you not use him? I think Brendan is right. I think he got sick of being used because of his high profile to criticise the Government at every turn instead of offering constructive ideas. 
I thought the best part of Frontline last night was the academics talking about system reform. It is badly needed.


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## Latrade (9 Feb 2010)

Brendan said:


> Hi Conan
> 
> I have heard people whom I respect say this before. But I have never noticed anything smart about Richard Bruton. Is he not the same as all othe opposition TDs? Opposing what the government proposes? Has he produced some brilliant independent economic analysis which I have missed?


 
Over the last 12-18 months you're right. Prior to that he was gaining a lot of respect. Essentially while things were still up in the air he was the only one coming out with some sensible suggestions, then as FF started to develop a plan, I think the FG line became an opportunist debasing of every government plan. Since then he's been held back in order to keep to the party line. I don't think Lee is on his own in not having much say in over all policy, the FG policy is building for an anti FF vote and this involves planning for a government with Labour which is impacting on what Bruton can say.

The comparisson with Lee is there, Bruton whether he likes it or not is sticking to the party line (without much conviction it has to be said) though from purely anecdotal accounts, he feels that this is perpetuating the "lack of effective opposition" view and that there should be some stronger, clearer economic policies and solutions at the front. Policies and solutions which perhaps should be pure FG and not watered down by Labour.




Sunny said:


> I agree to a certain degree but I think people are interested because here was a guy who rightly or wrongly felt he had something to offer in helping the main opposition party develop economic policies that would help Ireland get out of the mess that they are in and so decided to enter political life.


 
I don't disagree, it is a unique situation if only for the hype that surrounded the election. And it is a big story in the sense that it's all over the media and everyone is talking about it, but if you boil it down it's no more a major story than a footballer having an affair. 

Aside from that, the point is that EK has to be accountable for brining in and losing Lee, but also for not managing the debacle yesterday. It's too late now for a simple statement, I just think of all the things that could have or would have spelled the end of EK's leadership, that there's a certain humour in that this minor issue could cause the end.


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## Calico (9 Feb 2010)

I really liked George, but he was elected to shake the place up and he patently failed to do that. Not only that but he didn't even try.

There was SO much he could have done in there, either as a FG TD or failing that, as an independent. If things were as bad as he said, he could have completely lambasted the political system and screamed for change in the Dail. We all would have supported him. 

There was nothing stopping him putting forward his own ideas for policy even if it was contrary to his party's. With his public support he could have made life very difficult for the status quo in Dail Eireann. 

If things were as bas as he said, he should have forced Fine Gael to kick him out of the party. Like they would have dared! Instead, he sat brooding in the background, said and did nothing, and spent his time thinking just about himself. After 9 months, 2 short years away from an election, without even trying a different approach he threw in the towel. I'm sorry but that is joke. It's also remarkable that he quit right before his leave of absence expired with RTE. Just enough time to take a holiday with the kids before running back to another waste of space, time and money that is RTE.

I did like him, and have no allegience to FG, but he really let himself and the people that voted for him down. And to be able to go back to his old job (or whatever role they create for him) along with a 15k lump sum is just another example of how in Ireland ordinary joe regularly gets his nose rubbed in it


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## Staples (9 Feb 2010)

Brendan said:


> If someone tells me that they are unhappy in a new job, I tell them go to the boss and tell them so. Tell them why you feel undervalued and frustrated.


 
I think this is at the hub of it.

Lee himself said that Enda Kenny was shocked when he told him he was leaving. This suggests that he didn't offer sufficient notice of his intent or the circumstances that would required to change his mind. It seems to suggest that EK and others should inherently know what it takes to please him and duly ensure that these circumstances are ceated.

A resignation on grounds of principle should only follow fairly strenuous attempts to have one's principles respected. In this case, however, the nuclear option was chosen first without any apparent consideration of the alternatives.


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## sunrock (9 Feb 2010)

Calico said:


> I really liked George, but he was elected to shake the place up and he patently failed to do that. Not only that but he didn't even try.
> 
> There was SO much he could have done in there, either as a FG TD or failing that, as an independent. If things were as bad as he said, he could have completely lambasted the political system and screamed for change in the Dail. We all would have supported him.
> 
> ...


 
This explains why he left when he did. To go back to his cossetted job with RTE before his LEAVE OF ABSENCE EXPIRED WITH RTE. And what is this about a 15k lump sum.His concern about the state of the country and the unemployed ring very hollow after this revelation and at 160k salary even better than being a politician.I`d have more respect for him if he came straight out and said he decided he preferred the pampered life in RTE than being a politician dealing with all the constituents concerns.
I felt he was badly exposed in the VINCENT BROWNE show where he got more grilling from VIncent and a very realistic criticism from O REILLY the fg health spokesman and also the woman guest.He looked a bit shaken and his explanations were not credible....it seemed that he just couldn`t hack political life. Also once again there was no explanation as to what policies he would like to implement to sort out the economic problems of the country.FG are not in power and their role is to oppose. They are not going to be able to bring the government down by opposing so i don`t see what G LEE problem with this is .
G LEE says he is concerned about the countrys economic problems but when push came to shove we can see that his first concern was with his own financial security.


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## Marathon Man (9 Feb 2010)

Lots of wagon circling in the media today....and on this forum.

George Lee entered the fray to try to change things when the country was (and still is) in the 'do-do'.  It looks like he didn't like what he found on the inside, once he got in.  

He's now left FG and, has stated his reasons for leaving, basically, as being unable to influence the party.  Other than that, as far as I can see, he hasn't disparaged the party in any way...........yet there seems to be no shortage of party hacks and politicos who, it would appear, have nothing good to say about George.

The country is still in dire straits, the same lunatics are still running the asylum - and telling the rest of us that we've got to take 'horrible medicine' (because they're sick!).

I think George had - and still has - a lot of self-respect and integrity.  Pity more of them don't. 

As I write this, I'm listening to Richard Bruton saying that "George Lee never rang me with ideas"  Is that how one influences FG?  Ring each other???   I think that proves George's point.

I want the present government out - I think it's been one of the most incompetent in the history of the state - but I now think that FG have been torpedoed below the waterline - by themselves.  They parachuted an asset into the party and then didn't mind it!  

In conclusion, I think that FG has shown itself to be just the other crowd with a different name, but not able to step up to the mark.

FG Marks:  Must try harder.


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## Firefly (9 Feb 2010)

I missed, but taped, the Late Late Show last Friday and watched George Hook's interview last night. Ryan asked him if he was ever approached by FG and he said he was. Asked why he didn't go into politics, he mentioned being used as a crowdpuller and not having any influence. Given that G lee has given these two responses and is said to have mulled on his decision during the last few days, perhaps the G Hook interview was the final straw..


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## UFC (9 Feb 2010)

After watching the Frontline this is my opinion on the matter:

Lee - for whatever reasons - didn't think it was up to him to make things happen. He expected people to come to him and tell him what to do or ask for his ideas. I find it peculiar that a man of his age and experience has this attitude about working world.

I also think he went into politics without realising what's involved, and he has a ginormous ego which couldn't handle being anything other than the top dog.

I have no problem with him leaving FG, but he should have stayed on as an Independent and made a lot of noise about what he sees as FF's & FG's economic failings.

Slightly unrelated, but once again Pat Kenny's lack of interviewing skills were on full display. When Lee was clearly rattled by the "someone asked for your input but you didn't participate" question, his pathetic answer "I don't know what he means by that" should have been challenged.


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## Sunny (9 Feb 2010)

UFC said:


> Slightly unrelated, but once again Pat Kenny's lack of interviewing skills were on full display.


 
Can't argue with that. He came out with some very strange comments.


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## shnaek (9 Feb 2010)

UFC said:


> I find it peculiar that a man of his age and experience has this attitude about working world.


That's the first time the Dail has ever been called that!


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## carpedeum (9 Feb 2010)

We need a very strong opposition in the current climate. Two things worry me about Fine Gael.

 As Brendan alluded to, Richard Bruton has not indicated that he has any radical or innovative economic policies. It is very easy to criticise and agitate public frustrations against any government at present. What we want is an alternative to the government offering viable options.

Secondly, if George Lee was appointed chairman of the FG economic committee, why didn't he call any meetings? Surely, this was a vehicle he could have used to suggest and formulate policies with the bonus of getting concensus within the party. 

It looks as if the people will be sticking with Brian Lenihan's pragmatic policies at the next election.


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## DerKaiser (9 Feb 2010)

carpedeum said:


> Secondly, if George Lee was appointed chairman of the FG economic committee, why didn't he call any meetings? Surely, this was a vehicle he could have used to suggest and formulate policies with the bonus of getting concensus within the party.


 
As UFC pointed out, he seemed a little lost and expected people would come to him.

He was encouraged to spend his early months getting to grips with how politics worked. 

Perhaps if he had done what he was told and learned how the system worked he could have started to wield influence

Of course you'll have plenty of people who can see George Lee do no wrong and insist that the whole system was wrong and not George.  Even if that was the case he needed to learn the system first and then try reform it.  

Look at how peace was worked out in the North, Bertie sat in negotiations where he was the only one who had not committed murder!  In politics you have to be very pragmatic, a man of George Lee's experience should have known this from the start rather than wasting everyone's time figuring it out at the age of 47!


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## liaconn (9 Feb 2010)

Well, the general view of FGaelers on the Frontline last night was that George should have 'done his time' on constituency work before expecting to be given any other responsibility. Basically, he should have spent a few years sorting out people's grants and medical card issues, promising to look into traffic calming measures and turning up at every funeral in town, before his economic expertise could get a look in.  Says it all about Irish politics really.


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## cork (9 Feb 2010)

He should have gone independent and got a deal for the area that elected him.

He was right to ditch FG who have no alternative to NAMA or solutions to the recession


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## liaconn (9 Feb 2010)

To be honest, as one of the people who elected him it wasn't so that he could 'do a deal' for me and my neighbours. It was so that, if FG got elected, there would be someone in there who knew what he was doing.


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## Birroc (9 Feb 2010)

carpedeum said:


> As Brendan alluded to, Richard Bruton has not indicated that he has any radical or innovative economic policies. It is very easy to criticise and agitate public frustrations against any government at present. What we want is an alternative to the government offering viable options.


 
Bruton is very very weak IMHO. In previous budgets when we were flush (on borrowed money) he was always saying that the govt weren't spending enough, during the last election he came across as very weak in terms of policies, and these days he just says the same lines over and over - "we will tackle public finances and create jobs" - But how how how  Richard? at which point he talks in circles with politician speak waffle.


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## Brendan Burgess (9 Feb 2010)

cork said:


> He should have gone independent and got a deal for the area that elected him.



But that was his whole point. he wanted to influence economic policy not get the footpaths in Dublin South fixed. 

Brendan


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## VOR (9 Feb 2010)

Brendan said:


> he wanted to influence economic policy not get the footpaths in Dublin South fixed.


 
I can't understand why he did not follow the lead of Dr. Alan Ahearne if he really wanted to influence policy. OK, it would have made his RTE position untenable in the short term. But that is a small price to pay for actually being at the table where the decisions are made.


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## DeeFox (9 Feb 2010)

Listening to the George Lee interview this morning on Today FM I was shocked to hear George say that he has literally only spent a few minutes one on one time with Richard Bruton in the past nine months.  Does anyone else think this is very odd??!  I had this notion that George Lee had been brought in to thrash out economic policies but it does sound like he was surplus to requirements.
I admire what George Lee has done - he seems to have put principles before politics.


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## Marathon Man (9 Feb 2010)

DeeFox said:


> Listening to the George Lee interview this morning on Today FM I was shocked to hear George say that he has literally only spent a few minutes one on one time with Richard Bruton in the past nine months.





Marathon Man said:


> As I write this, I'm listening to Richard Bruton saying that "George Lee never rang me with ideas" Is that how one influences FG? Ring each other??? I think that proves George's point.



These two interviews appear to tally.  Doesn't augur well for FG as a credible (possible) government, imho


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## Lex Foutish (9 Feb 2010)

Matt Cooper said this evening that met Richard Bruton coming out of a meeting at 1:15 yesterday and he informed Richard Bruton that George had packed up. Richard Bruton didn't know anything about it eventhough Enda Kenny had known for days about the possibility. Wouldn't that inspire confidence in people of their ability to govern the country effectively?


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## mathepac (9 Feb 2010)

sunrock said:


> ...  I am very disappointed in GEORGE LEE. HE comes across as a pathetic and petulant man ...


I am neither a FG or FF supporter and was disappointed to see Lee parachuted into that constituency.

However, at the time I was glad to see a party, any party, reach for a perceived economic authority in the midst of a very real economic  crisis.

Lee is now in my eyes the Roy Keane of Irish politics. However he lacks Roy's single greatest redeeming feature;  actual proven ability in his chosen field. Lee was only ever an observer and commentator whereas Roy had the cuts and bruises of a true participant.


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## Capt. Beaky (9 Feb 2010)

mathepac said:


> I am neither a FG or FF supporter and was disappointed to see Lee parachuted into that constituency.
> 
> However, at the time I was glad to see a party, any party, reach for a perceived economic authority in the midst of a very real economic crisis.
> 
> Lee is now in my eyes the Roy Keane of Irish politics. However he lacks Roy's single greatest redeeming feature; actual proven ability in his chosen field. Lee was only ever an observer and commentator whereas Roy had the cuts and bruises of a true participant.


I agree with mathepac. Practice and theory aren't necessarily good bedfellows.


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## Lex Foutish (9 Feb 2010)

mathepac said:


> Lee is now in my eyes the Roy Keane of Irish politics.* However he lacks Roy's single greatest redeeming feature*;.


 
We know he's not from Cork!


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## Deiseblue (9 Feb 2010)

mathepac said:


> I am neither a FG or FF supporter and was disappointed to see Lee parachuted into that constituency.
> 
> However, at the time I was glad to see a party, any party, reach for a perceived economic authority in the midst of a very real economic  crisis.
> 
> Lee is now in my eyes the Roy Keane of Irish politics. However he lacks Roy's single greatest redeeming feature;  actual proven ability in his chosen field. Lee was only ever an observer and commentator whereas Roy had the cuts and bruises of a true participant.



Except that Roy returned to the fold , can't see George following suit !
I think it far more likely that it was Roy's opponents who suffered cuts and bruises !


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## chlipps (9 Feb 2010)

I'm not an FF or FG supporter but vote for whom I think is best for the task. I think FG stay too long analysing how to respond to FF suggestions rather than coming up with a viable alternative... Bruton seems to be full time complaining about Lenihan suggests without coming with a better solution... I think Lee must have been sick of this and maybe was not being listened to in FG.

It is very surprising George didnt go independent if he had all these great ideas... Very surprising George never published or wrote down these great ideas whilst he worked for RTE... Some people love the sound of their own voice...now i think George is one of these... he wasnt heard in FG so he wants to get back on RTE so that he hear himself talking again... Issue is it is going to take time to gain back respect


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## WarrenBuffet (9 Feb 2010)

I agree with mathpac - since when was George Lee an economic genius?? 

Ok - he got a masters from the LSE. So what? Everyone on this forum surely knows at least five eejits with various types of masters, MBAs, PHDs under their belt.  

Prior to his election George was an economic commentator for RTE - a minor celebrity on a very small island. As part of his job he *commented* on the economic welfare of this country. That is all I can remember him doing - I certainly don't recall him suggesting any radical policies or solutions. Frankly I always thought it was a bit arrogant of him to suggest that he was somehow going to solve all our economic wows once he was elected to office. On what did he base this?

If you break it down George has large amounts of experience of dealing with the media, (through his job!!). He also happened to have a very high profile since he was the our largest tv station's economic commentator. Finally he was running for office when Fianna Fail were at their lowest ebb. Even Dustin the turkey would have had a chance!

I have never seen any signs of economic genius from George Lee. He was a bit of a coup for Fine Gael at the time (which has backfired spectacularly). In my opinion he must have a massive ego - essentially he has thrown the toys out of the pram when things werent going his way. I fail to see any show of character when he quit after 9 months!!!! My sister will probably be pregnant longer than that. 

I no time for George after this - and to be honest I never saw him as anything more than a commentator before he got elected anyway!!

(BTW is there any truth in what Vincent Browne said last night, i.e. that George can't comment on any political matters in Ireland for 7 years?)


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## Lex Foutish (9 Feb 2010)

Vincent Browne also said that part of his new job with RTE would probably entail interviewing circus performers!


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## D8Lady (9 Feb 2010)

Lex Foutish said:


> Wouldn't that inspire confidence in people of their ability to govern the country effectively?



If the opposition don't meet to discuss opposing government policy, what on earth do they do?


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## Lex Foutish (9 Feb 2010)

D8Lady said:


> If the opposition don't meet to discuss opposing government policy, what on earth do they do?


 
Not sure, but I reckon they don't spend their time formulating economic policy!


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## chlipps (9 Feb 2010)

D8Lady said:


> If the opposition don't meet to discuss opposing government policy, what on earth do they do?


 
Give it a few days and Gift Grub will address your query


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## levelpar (9 Feb 2010)

Would he have resigned if he did not have his 100K plus job in RTE waiting for his return . I believe his leave of absence expires in May.


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## DeeFox (10 Feb 2010)

WarrenBuffet said:


> As part of his job he *commented* on the economic welfare of this country.  Frankly I always thought it was a bit arrogant of him to suggest that he was somehow going to solve all our economic wows once he was elected to office.
> 
> 
> I fail to see any show of character when he quit after 9 months!!!!


 
George never said he was going to solve all the problems - all he said was that he would *try* to help.  Most people complain about the state of the country but do nothing about it.  He took a chance and it didn't work out. I think having the bravery to leave when he realised it wasn't going to work shows true character.  It would have been far easier for him to simply stay where he was.


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## Complainer (10 Feb 2010)

DeeFox said:


> I think having the bravery to leave when he realised it wasn't going to work shows true character.


There was no bravery here.

Politics is inherently competitive, at every level. TDs have to compete with their peer TDs in their own party. If George didn't expect to have to compete, he was a naive fool.

It sounds like he sat around for 9 months waiting for the phone to ring with Enda granting him some title or role. It doesn't work that way. You have get up of your This post will be deleted if not edited to remove bad language and make things happen yourself. If he wasn't capable of making things happen within FG, he would certainly have never survived a Ministerial role. 

Good riddance.


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## Marathon Man (10 Feb 2010)

Complainer said:


> There was no bravery here.
> 
> Politics is inherently competitive, at every level. TDs have to compete with their peer TDs in their own party. If George didn't expect to have to compete, he was a naive fool.
> 
> ...



Y'know...that all sounds like the same caustic drivel we've been getting for the past few days from mainly FG, along with other politicos.  GL didn't like what he saw and got out.   *He's gone.....Get over it*.  

The country is in a shambles.   The bankers and developers, spurred on by FF and their friends, have got us in a hell-hole and all everyone wants to do is bash GL!!   C'mon let's take a deep breath and see where this is getting us - nowhere fast.

The emperor and all his retinue, along with the would-be emperors, have no clothes.  Somebody has said that the emperor has no clothes......and everyone wants to execute him?????
*
He's gone...really, really gone........now ....get over it!!*


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## DerKaiser (11 Feb 2010)

Marathon Man said:


> Y'know...that all sounds like the same caustic drivel we've been getting for the past few days from mainly FG, along with other politicos. GL didn't like what he saw and got out. *He's gone.....Get over it*.
> 
> The country is in a shambles. The bankers and developers, spurred on by FF and their friends, have got us in a hell-hole and all everyone wants to do is bash GL!! C'mon let's take a deep breath and see where this is getting us - nowhere fast.
> 
> ...


 
I think the 'Good Riddance' is a pretty good indication that complainer has got over it!!

Look, it takes no insight or intelligence to use the followong soundbites:

Bankers, Builders and developers are being bailed out
Where's my NAMA
438,000 unemployed
The state of the country is a disgrace 

Any fool can spurt out these phrases, and lets face it every fool is. But where's the follow through? I want to hear a well explained description of what actually got us here (loose credit and an inflationary spiral that the majority did not question) and then plausible solutions. Calling FF or FG muppets is not a plausible solution.

83% of liveline listeners backed George so I wouldn't exactly say there is a rush to execute him.

At this moment I would contrast him with Brian Lenihan. Diagnosed with cancer he still has the guts to carry on. I would say that half the country had no time for him before the diagnosis but the majority have now accepted he is an honest and intelligent man who is not in politics for cynical reasons.

To get back to my point, it is a very lazy and inaccurate consensus to assume all of our politicians are either currupt or idiots. But that's what people want to believe evidently, so much so that a quitter like George Lee (returning to his cushy job) will have more popular support than the true statesmen who are making huge scarifices to try get this country back on the rails with genuine solutions rather than populist soundbites.


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## Purple (11 Feb 2010)

Very well said Der Kaiser.
The problem at the moment is that once people accept that all politicians are not corrupt idiots they will also have to accept their own culpability in whatever problems they may face.


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## Shawady (11 Feb 2010)

DerKaiser said:


> I want to hear a well explained description of what actually got us here (loose credit and an inflationary spiral that the majority did not question) and then plausible solutions. Calling FF or FG muppets is not a plausible solution.


 
George Lee thought Fine Gael's policy (and the government's) of trying to cut the deficit in 5 years was too harsh and he would have prefered a longer period of time. I think he referenced the UK's approach as an example of what he prefered.
I have no idea if he is right or wromg but this approach would seem to be at odds what other economists are saying.


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## Purple (11 Feb 2010)

Shawady said:


> George Lee thought Fine Gael's policy (and the government's) of trying to cut the deficit in 5 years was too harsh and he would have prefered a longer period of time. I think he referenced the UK's approach as an example of what he prefered.
> I have no idea if he is right or wromg but this approach would seem to be at odds what other economists are saying.



Which goes back to a point made earlier on this thread, one which I agree with based on listening to him over the years on RTE, that George Lee should have joined the Labour Party.


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## DerKaiser (11 Feb 2010)

Purple said:


> The problem at the moment is that once people accept that all politicians are not corrupt idiots they will also have to accept their own culpability in whatever problems they may face.


 
Yep, the government, regulator, banks, builders, etc are not pantomime villains.  We need to accept our part in it and move on from that denial.

I have to say that the readiness of people to move on is questionable given the general lack of acceptance that maybe this whole issue is about 'George Lee' rather than the state of FG or politics in general.

The convoluted attempts to justify George's behaviour are simply another aspect of the general belief that collectively the vast majority of us had no hand, act or part in the state the country is in.

That's the most frustrating part in all of this.


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## DB74 (11 Feb 2010)

I don't think that anybody is claiming that they have no culpability. Nobody can be that naive IMO. Anybody who bought a house in the last 10 years or got a mortgage top-up to pay for a fancy extension or even ran up a credit card debt and released equity to pay it are all involved in the banking crisis.

However ...

I had no hand in the effective non-regulation of the banking sector.

I had no say in the special 20% tax-rate given to builders relating to the sale of development land.

I was not personally responsible for forming the macroeconomic or microeconomic policies that our country was run with over the last 10-15 years.

So forgive me if I want a rant at those who were!


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## DerKaiser (11 Feb 2010)

DB74 said:


> So forgive me if I want a rant at those who were!


Fair enough.

There's an Abe Lincoln quote 

"He has a right to criticize, who has a heart to help"

George Lee criticised for Ireland but when given the opportunity he could not find the heart to help


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## Marathon Man (11 Feb 2010)

DerKaiser said:


> I think the 'Good Riddance' is a pretty good indication that complainer has got over it!!


I find that deduction very strange.  Clearly Complainer wouldn't be posting if s/he'd got over it.  Sounds like a pretty live issue.



DerKaiser said:


> Look, it takes no insight or intelligence to use the followong soundbites:
> 
> Bankers, Builders and developers are being bailed out
> Where's my NAMA
> ...


I agree 100%.  ....However that's what we're getting from the (same) primary people who got us into the mess we're in.



DerKaiser said:


> Any fool can spurt out these phrases, and lets face it every fool is. But where's the follow through? I want to hear a well explained description of what actually got us here (loose credit and an inflationary spiral that the majority did not question) and then plausible solutions. Calling FF or FG muppets is not a plausible solution.


...and lots of them are in Dail Eireann!  We seem, continuously, to elect orators.  Dev once said "In England, you can say what you like as long as you do the right thing.  In Ireland, you can do what you like, as long as you say the right thing"  I'm not a Dev fan, but I reckon he was absolutely right. 

Plenty of people did question the policies and strategies of the Government, but no, Brian Linehan told us to "Stop talking down the economy!" " The fundamentals are fine!"  You say the majority didn't question it.  The majority weren't involved!  Relative to the electorate, a tiny, deeply entrenched, minority orchestrated this, aided and abetted by the Government.  A significant minority of the electorate are in trouble , mainly due to over-borrowing, having been dragged along in the property/credit euphoria that was "never going to end", but the majority weren't involved.  We are now.....and the most vulnerable are paying the highest cost!

Meantime the same crowds are running the show, and all the respective side-shows.


DerKaiser said:


> 83% of liveline listeners backed George so I wouldn't exactly say there is a rush to execute him.


Nobody mentioned Live-Line here until now.  I think, if you check them out, that the figures on this board come *nowhere* near 83% in favour - hence my comment on this thread. 



DerKaiser said:


> At this moment I would contrast him with Brian Lenihan. Diagnosed with cancer he still has the guts to carry on. I would say that half the country had no time for him before the diagnosis but the majority have now accepted he is an honest and intelligent man who is not in politics for cynical reasons.


 I don't follow your logic and reasoning on this one at all.  Yes you do have to have the guts to carry on - it's either that or give up.  Unfortunately many of us, including Brain and myself, have to get on with things, but that doesn't make us any better at what we do.  



DerKaiser said:


> To get back to my point, it is a very lazy and inaccurate consensus to assume all of our politicians are either currupt or idiots. But that's what people want to believe evidently, so much so that a quitter like George Lee (returning to his cushy job) will have more popular support than the true statesmen who are making huge scarifices to try get this country back on the rails with genuine solutions rather than populist soundbites.


Right...Then what in the name of God were all the tribunals for?  We clearly have had - and probably still do have - politicians, along with pressure group  and institutional power brokers, both state and private sector, who were accepting millions (e.g. Haughey) and favours/dig outs.  There's no such thing as a free dinner, and we're paying for it now - and will do so for a long time to come!.....and, as I see it, the only change is that a new hymn sheet has been passed around the same choir groups.   Idiots...I'm sure that there must be some in the Dail, but there's more outside, who put them in there in the first place.


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## DerKaiser (11 Feb 2010)

Marathon Man said:


> I don't follow your logic and reasoning on this one at all. Yes you do have to have the guts to carry on - it's either that or give up. Unfortunately many of us, including Brain and myself, have to get on with things, but that doesn't make us any better at what we do


 
Lenihan had a far better reason for retiring from public life than George Lee did, but he hung in there.


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## Marathon Man (11 Feb 2010)

DB74 said:


> I don't think that anybody is claiming that they have no culpability. Nobody can be that naive IMO. Anybody who bought a house in the last 10 years or got a mortgage top-up to pay for a fancy extension or even ran up a credit card debt and released equity to pay it are all involved in the banking crisis.



You hear plenty of people saying that they're in trouble, but you don't hear from *anyone* who is not - and you won't.  I have a lot of genuine sympathy for people who, for example, bought their first home and are now in negative equity.  However it seems to me that many of the greedy people who, again for example, sold property and reinvested to buy even more and are now in trouble, are now making bleating the most.

Not everybody is in that boat. Most people quietly got on with their lives. The notion that *everyone* is in hock and that, as such, we are all responsible is a fallacy. An awful lot of people are (in hock) and a lot of people are responsible, but to blame and tar everyone is simply avoiding the truth.


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## Marathon Man (11 Feb 2010)

DerKaiser said:


> Lenihan had a far better reason for retiring from public life than George Lee did, but he hung in there.


Your point?? Lenihan is sticking to his guns, while Lee is sticking to his principles.

Besides..what did you expect Linehan to do?  Roll over?  I think he and I have more self-respect and determination than that. As I said we get on with it!


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## Purple (11 Feb 2010)

Marathon Man said:


> IPlenty of people did question the policies and strategies of the Government, but no, Brian Linehan told us to "Stop talking down the economy!" " The fundamentals are fine!"  You say the majority didn't question it.  The majority weren't involved!  Relative to the electorate, a tiny, deeply entrenched, minority orchestrated this, aided and abetted by the Government.  A significant minority of the electorate are in trouble , mainly due to over-borrowing, having been dragged along in the property/credit euphoria that was "never going to end", but the majority weren't involved.  We are now.....and the most vulnerable are paying the highest cost!



Lenihan became minister for Finance in May 2008. I think just about everyone knew the wheels were coming off the economy by then.
The root cause of our current problems is a Fianna Fail government that outsourced the running of the country to vested interest groups for 10 years. They called part of Social Partnership and the rest of it economic stimulus. What it amounted to was tax breaks for builders which created a credit fuelled bubble which in turn generated massive tax receipts that were used to pay off the unions. The government didn’t govern, it just made sure there was enough cake for the guys who were running the show to gorge themselves on.

I know I’ve been banging on about the above for years and other posters are probably sick of hearing about it but once the government is not governing for the people the people are in trouble. Social partnership outsourced the running of our state to vested interest groups. Bertie Ahern didn’t just not do his job, he allowed unelected people to do it for him. Whether they were bankers, developers or trade unionists (or all of the above) they had no place dictating how the country was run, be it in back rooms or in “partnership” talks. 

There is a touch of the one party state in this country, where a change in the leadership of Fianna Fail is more significant than a general election, but Bertie and his unwillingness to do his job was the problem. Social partnership is now dead, the property developers are gone bust and the bankers are no longer masters of the universe. The government is governing again; the landscape has changed. Brian Lenihan (the acting Taoiseach) is doing a good job and, probably, has the right policies. If Bertie was still in charge I would vote for anyone but FF (to say I despise him is way short of the mark), but he’s gone so I am back to voting on economic policies. FG’s policies are off the wall and Labour would beggar the country for generations. George Lee backed the wrong horse.


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## Marathon Man (11 Feb 2010)

Purple, at worst, I'd probably nit-pick at some of your post. We mightn't be in tune, but it sounds like the same song.

I don't think it's that George Lee backed the wrong horse - all the current horses, imho, should be taken to the knackers yard - but that he found/realised that major change was needed and nobody wanted to change.  But that's the bed *WE* made.


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## edo (12 Feb 2010)

Purple said:


> Lenihan became minister for Finance in May 2008. I think just about everyone knew the wheels were coming off the economy by then.
> The root cause of our current problems is a Fianna Fail government that outsourced the running of the country to vested interest groups for 10 years. They called part of Social Partnership and the rest of it economic stimulus. What it amounted to was tax breaks for builders which created a credit fueled bubble which in turn generated massive tax receipts that were used to pay off the unions. The government didn’t govern, it just made sure there was enough cake for the guys who were running the show to gorge themselves on.
> 
> I know I’ve been banging on about the above for years and other posters are probably sick of hearing about it but once the government is not governing for the people the people are in trouble. Social partnership outsourced the running of our state to vested interest groups. Bertie Ahern didn’t just not do his job, he allowed unelected people to do it for him. Whether they were bankers, developers or trade unionists (or all of the above) they had no place dictating how the country was run, be it in back rooms or in “partnership” talks.
> ...



Well Purple - are ya still in Business after all these years? - I guess it must be 2006 since I was last around these parts - telling anybody who would listen to me that the property monster was going to be the ruination of this country and we needed to cop on - then Brendan banned the lot of us for talking down the economy and that we were talking thru our asses  

God I wish he had been right and I'd been wrong - man its been real - the high flying hi-tech export company I was with is now in receivership and we are currently conducting its last rites thru the High Court -all the patents and technology has been sold off to Asians and Americans - I've been in and out of work for the last year or so - mainly working under contract for liquidators - its been great fun. 

The Thread grabbed my interest because around the time I stopped posting around here - I finally decided to stop giving out and put my time and money where my mouth and keyboard was and get involved in the political process - 4 years now and its been an alternating illuminating,depressing,hopeful and infuriating experience - I looked around at all the partys on offer - I was in the communist party at college - but I was young and that's where all the cool chicks were and as the treasurer I quickly became the only sane one connected with the real world while the intelligentsia sat around,smoked pot and dreamed of conquering the world - since then I've worked in private business the whole time and I'm a classic liberal - on social issues and on economics. So the left was out, Labour was ruled out even tho they have some smart people and probably our best former minster of finance in Ruairi Quinn, Fianna Fail - forget it - going against all my FF genetics going back to 1916 - Fianna Fail need to be disbanded for the good of the country - they have nothing left to say - The EU, ECB and the Germans ,thru the mandarins in the Dept of Finance are running this country now and will be for the foreseeable future regardless of who is in power - you can thank Bertie and Brian for that - if you're happy in a one party state - keep voting for them. The far right a la Declan Ganley scare the life out of me - so all that was left was Fine Gael - I agreed with about 25% of their platform - which was about 15% more than anybody elses - yeah a good number of them are a bit too conservative for my liking - but hey- thats life - you gotta convince them

So I joined up at the very bottom - paid my membership fee - got to know my local councillors and candidate in the GE and got out there leafleting,canvassing,organising public meetings ,hanging posters and getting chased by dogs - its one hell of a way to get to know your neighbours and the state of the country in general - in fact - there are some evenings I come in after canvassing for 2 hours after work when you feel like saying - "well f^ck the lot of ye - you get the government and representatives you deserve" - I did some canvassing for Obama in 2008 with my octoganarian grand-uncles in CA - and after Ireland -it was an invigorating experience - I'll give the yanks one thing - they take their politics and their democracy seriously - sometimes I wonder if we deserve one at all - not that I've lost an election yet! - we won the seat in Dublin South East in 2007 - we won Lisbon I in Dublin DSE - my 2 candidates down here in Carlow of whom I was their campaign manager/election agent/speechwriter/canvasser both won in the locals - first time FG has had 2 councillors in the area since the 1920's - and we won Lisbon II - all the same - I find Irish people will whinge to the high heaven about everything and anything - but expect somebody else to do the heavy lifting, expect somebody else to come up with the answer to the frustration they are experiencing, expect somebody else to dream up the concepts, ideas and then like a spoilt kid in an icecream shop - will proceed do your head in as they if and aa and pick and mix - and yet - will vote somebody into Dail Eireann because they got the lights fixed on the street - you get what you deserve folks - and if you're not in - you cant win.

thats the politicians rant over - now back to Georgeous George - I was coming down the steps of the high court on Monday morning feeling pretty good as my case was successfully wrapped up and then my mobile phone went nuts and I listened to George announcing his resignation - I was in absolute shock and I think the entire party was aswell - nobody saw this coming - my immediate reaction " well thats the next election down the swannee - the people will never forgive us for messing up Georgeous George , the peoples champion- and Kenny will probably be asked to walk the plank - and I dropped kicked my coffee cup into the liffey at over 30 kms per hour - sue me Gormley!! - 

I'd been a bit frustrated at the freewheeling and slow pace since the locals - admittedly we sucked it up and did the national interest thing over Lisbon, on NAMA we were skillfully flanked by the FF PR Machine - so far - this NAMA thingy is going to end up  looking very like Richard Brutons Good bank/Bad Bank proposal at the rate things are going and far more expensively for the taxpayer- but perception is everything and nobody bothers to read 80 page policy documents except wonks like myself - so I thought I could understand where Lee was coming from. If Lee had issued his statement, had a brief word on the lunchtime news and left it at that - Kenny would be gone as leader now. but Lee didn't leave it at that - As I drove home from Dublin - he was on evey single media outlet until midnight that night -and in the process - changed my mind about the whole thing - pulled the party firmly behind Kenny who did the smart thing -issued a statement and left it at that - while George managed to expose himself as.........well lets just say.............as well known local FFer came up to me yesterday with a grin as wide as the Shannon and said " Yis poor feckers.........ye though ye were getting a smart politician.....George though he was the messiah....and in the end he turned into Osama bin Laden..suicide bomber.. and blew himself and the whole lot of yis to kingdom come" - it was hard to disagree - despite the brave face in the media- we'll be scraping the party off the ceiling and  the walls for weeks if not months to come in the aftermath of this. 

Im sore over this - I  travelled over 200 miles round trip for 3 nights , in common with hundreds of FG activists , to canvass for Lee in Dublin South last June - leaving my own charges to fend for themselves - the party gave George everything to get him over the line and I was looking forward to finally meeting him at the up-coming Ard-fheis ,getting his line on things , what he was working on , what was ****ing him off and if he needed any help...............and then he gave us all the 2 fingers and stormed off in a huff after 19 weeks in the Dail! - 8 months in the party! - I've stormed out of jobs when I felt i wasn't gettin the love that I was due - but I was 21 the last time I did it! - a classy exit it was not and it appeared to me that he'd been listening to the voices in his head for a bit too long.

Politics I have found , is a funny game, you are in this together, yet at the same time, you are alone - you really get out of politics - what you put into it - its real life concentrated - you have to persuade,manipulate,bribe,flatter,earn trust, earn brownie points - and that's only with the missus to get out the door to the meeting in the first place! - After 4 yearsof having done a lot of the donkey work and earned a lot of brownie points - but at the same time having learnt tons more and been taught a few harsh lessons a long the way - Im finally coming into positions of influence within the local party - I will be taking up 2 prominent positions in the constituency organisation - one is purely ceremonial and I could do without -but they came in a package - the other one is the one I've wanted and gives me a real chance to really shake up the constituency organisation ,get some new blood in, gives me power over the country councillors to get that mob into a semblance of a disciplined troop until I abolish county councils full stop when I become minister for the environment - 

this appointment is both a reward for past endeavours, realised potential and persistent lobbying by myself for the chance to do it - if you dont ask - you dont get - I now have an opportunity to make what I will of my new position - I will also be watched and rated by others as to how well I do in it ,what ideas I chose to deploy and the results and if I have the potential for a more testing and senior gig - politics is not the public service - there are no increments and seniority sh^te - well not in FG anyway - its the most ruthless of free markets - everything is fair game - the higher up you go - the bigger the stakes - both on the table and potentially thru your back... I have loads of ideas about how I want to reform this country from top to bottom - so have many of my colleagues and so do many of our opponents - some might be good , some might rubbish - but unless you fight to have them heard in the first place.......... you have to play the game as best you can - make the best of what you have - be it family name,contacts,ideas whatever- take your courage in your hands and go for it - its a massive game of chance - you can be in the right place at the right time with right face for the right gig - or you can be just be plain unlucky in that your party are just not this seasons must have - its a cruel game - I've helped elect some idiots and knocked out some very smart people - but if you don't show some initiative ,grit and serious grab your opportunities - don't expect to do anything - George was given the economics committee - we all got letters telling us George was in charge of the economics commission within the party and that he would be inviting submissions and coming down to discuss it with us................nothing happened - George- you got the gig ye wanted..........you got the opportunity to prove yourself - but you did nothing.......I have no idea what he was expecting - nobody in the party does - but you don't get anything for nothing in the FG party - you have to want it ,grab it and prove your worthy of it - its pretty darwinian in here - if you can't stand the heat..........

Its a pity George didnt get to know the FG party outside Leinster House - because thats where the true power of the party lies - we are the activists,organisers,funders and fundraisers and we do have the power of life and death over the elected representatives - **** us off and you're history. If all George wanted was influence - he should have come and talked to us all around the country, got a group together to flesh and promote his ideas - the backroom boys are far more influential on matters of policy than the Tds................as much as they would like you to think differently......a lot of them are very smart -but simply havent got time to develop policies properly with the demands of getting and staying elected.

I really dont think Lee knew what he was getting himself into -I really wish he had had a chat with our last celebrity economist - Garrett Fitzgerald - who came straight from RTE punditry into the party - yet he took a much more long term approach - had to deal with a party leader who actively hated him (Cosgrave) yet showed deft political skill,great social skills,serious organisational abilities to manouveur his way into a position of power and influence and ultimately the Taoiseachs office - where he was unlucky enough to be handed the biggest credit card bill in history (up to now) by Charlie and stuck with a labour party totally infested with militants - still it was an achievement and George could have talked to him for advice -  I dont know the man - in common with over 90% of the party - we never knew him apart from we saw on TV -so Im not going to comment on it any further - just to wish him the best of luck - yeah we're sore - but life goes on - I just hope that when He finally calms down that he doesn't regret what he has done for the rest of his life.

Ive rambled on way too much -  suffice to say - stop talking about it , waiting for other people to do something about it and get out and do it yourself! 

because if you don't........... I'll be running the joint in 15-20 years time -yeah - Im slightly ahead of schedule - yeah 15 years time! 

If that isnt motivation enough!!!! 

Have no regrets - Ye will be dead for long enough afterwards!


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## dewdrop (12 Feb 2010)

Is this post a record for longevity for two in the morning! Its good to get things off your chest


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## Chocks away (12 Feb 2010)

Has this failed political neophyte not got enough headlines already? He'll have some people in therapy yet


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## Marathon Man (12 Feb 2010)

Chocks away said:


> ....failed political neophyte......




....and the labels keep coming!  

What is it that annoys you most?  

Is it that he didn't live up to your high expectations of politicians?

...or...that he had the gumption to walk away?

It's easy for the rest of us to snipe away behind the anonymity of our pseudonyms.  It's a lot harder to resign from the Dail and party, knowing that you're going to be lambasted, even vilified, on all sides.

As I said before....he's gone...get over it....

...unless, of course, you were speaking personally 





Chocks away said:


> He'll have some people in theraphy yet


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## Purple (12 Feb 2010)

edo - good to hear from you again. I'm working with a few of your former colleagues at the moment and business is just fine, thanks for asking.

Good post, way too long to answer in detail but if you run for office I won’t just vote for you, I'm campaign for you!


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## Sunny (12 Feb 2010)

Excellent post Edo. I was so impressed I read through some of your old ones as well. Very insightful. Glad to see people like you get involved in politics. Hopefully more people will be inspired to do likewise or at the very least try and re-connect to the politcal system in this Country. We sometimes forget that we own the system, not the politicians. I wonder sometimes if all those years of corruption did more damage to politics in this Country than was ever realised when you speak to people and realise how little respect they have for the system. 

By the way, can you use your influence to something about Enda? If you do, my vote is as good as yours. Also maybe keep Leo on a tighter leash!


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## Chocks away (12 Feb 2010)

Marathon Man said:


> ....and the labels keep coming!
> 
> What is it that annoys you most? ..............


George is passe. He can be discussed 'til we're all blue in the face and it won't make a bit of difference. And in answer to your question ....... the fact that people (including moi)  keep discussing his hasty departure. Michael O Leary would be proud of his turn-around time.


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## Mpsox (12 Feb 2010)

edo said:


> my 2 candidates down here in Carlow of whom I was their campaign manager/election agent/speechwriter/canvasser both won in the locals - first time FG has had 2 councillors in the area since the 1920's - and we won Lisbon II - all the same - I


 
I hope these aren't the 2FG councilers in Carlow you were managing

[broken link removed]


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## levelpar (12 Feb 2010)

George took leave of absence to sort out the country's problems, found out that nobody would listen and ran out the Dail door before the RTE door closed on him


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## edo (12 Feb 2010)

Mpsox said:


> I hope these aren't the 2FG councilers in Carlow you were managing
> 
> [broken link removed]



No thank Christ - that would be the Ballygamash - oops - Bagnalstown urban district council/commission thingy - town commissions are a total waste of time and money - they have nothing to do - so they get up to this craic and memorials to IRA bombers who blow themselves up and all this kind of trivial nonsense - eejits.

BTW - New poll for the independent taken wed and Thur this week  - results just out

Millard Brown 
_FF 27 up2
FG 34 up 4
LAB 19 down 3
SF 8 up 1
GREEN 2 down 3
OTHERS 10

Cowen 22
Kenny 26
Gilmore 54
Adams 35
Gormley 25
Government satisfaction 13_ 

Go figure as the man says!


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## z101 (12 Feb 2010)

What I dont get is if stayed elected as an independent he could have formed an alliance with other 5 independents to challenge government and be of bigger influence than within FG..


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## Complainer (13 Feb 2010)

Marathon Man said:


> ...or...that he had the gumption to walk away?


Or that he didnt have the gumption to stay?


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## Marathon Man (13 Feb 2010)

Complainer said:


> Or that he didnt have the gumption to stay?



Is that YOUR preference?  That he stay in something he clearly did NOT want to stay in?  Stick it out whatever??

BTW, looks like he's set a precedent........any chance Biffo, Jackie and a few others might follow suit....for the good of the country?

I wonder......Would the country be in a better state if the Raving Loony party had been in government for the past 10 years or so?


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## Deiseblue (13 Feb 2010)

But the Raving Looney party have been in charge for the last 10 years !!


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## Capt. Beaky (13 Feb 2010)

levelpar said:


> George took leave of absence to sort out the country's problems, found out that nobody would listen and ran out the Dail door before the RTE door closed on him


A pretty fair synopsis IMO.


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