# Lafoy commision,deafness claims, tribunals in general



## Tom (16 Sep 2003)

Watching questions and answers tonight I had the sinking feeling that we (the state i.e. you and I ) are going to be hit with yet another whopper of a bill.Conservative estimates suggested total projected costs of around 200 million euro.I can already imagine our legal friends licking their lips at the money that will be rolling in over the next few years.
Put this on top of the 300 million paid out in the army deafness claims (mostly to people who had never fought in a war in their life and had perfectly normal hearing for their age ).Need we mention the Flood (Mahon) and moriarity tribunals where lawyers are being paid obscene daily fees.
My point is will there ever come a point where the current population will not be held liable for past errors or crimes?.Colm O Gorman made a point victims often make, i.e. that they're not interested in money and they just want justice to be served.If thats the case why not just try and get them justice by targeting those members of institutions who were guilty of abuse and are still alive.


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## daltonr (16 Sep 2003)

I don't know if there's any evidence that people who received compensation for army Deafness had normal hearing for their age.  As a general rule I think it's a good idea not to insult people with guns.   


>that they're not interested in money and they just want 
>justice to be served.If thats the case why not just try and 
>get them justice by targeting those members of institutions 
>who were guilty of abuse and are still alive.

First of all it would be wrong to think that the huge costs are solely caused by compensation, or that just pursuing people who are alive will drastically reduce costs.  Money to victims is likely to be dwarfed by money to legal teams.

If you do "go after" people, they have a right to defend themselves, so a considerable chunk of those legal fees could be to people the tribunals are "going after".

I am inclined to agree that we're getting to a point where every scandal leads to calls for full public enquiry.  I'd feel happier if we let a few finish to see if they were value for money.

We could also get into tribunals about tribunals.  The relative immunity given to the Religious Orders by Minister Woods sits very uneasily with a lot of people, myself included.

-Rd


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## AmandaC (18 Sep 2003)

*Lafoy Commission-Tribunals*

I am quite annoyed with Toms comments.  

My father was an orphan and spent 9 years in Artane Industrial School from the age of 7 to 16.  The stories he could tell you would make the hair on your head stand.  He kept it all covered up for too long and it has affected every member of our family.  He only told us the truth about Artane when the book "fear of the Collar" came out, as he was mentioned quite a lot in it.

He and the many others like him are entitled to compensation. Many of his classmates are now dead, quite a lot have committed suicide as a result of what happened.

I hold the government resposible for what happened then and indeed for the way they are trying to cover up things now.  I think Justice Laffoy made the right decision in the circumstances.

I take Toms comments as an insult to anybody who has spent time in a similar institution.


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## daltonr (24 Sep 2003)

*Re: Lafoy Commission-Tribunals*



> the 300 million paid out in the army deafness claims



Evidently it didn't cost as much as expected.  They're buying a new Jet out of the Loose change left over after paying the claims.  

The Jet cost €8 or €9 million, or roughly 40 to 45 new buses for Dublin.  Still, as long as Bertie doesn't have to slum it on Aer Lingus, what harm if a few of the peasants have to stand in the rain while yet another full bus trundles by!

-Rd


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## Wings Of Chicken 1 (25 Sep 2003)

*Re: Lafoy Commission-Tribunals*

*AmandaC*

You say that *"your father....and the many others like him are entitled to compensation"*.

This compensation culture continues to trouble me.

What amount of compensation ?
How do you relate the value to what happened ?
What benefit will compensation be to your father (and others like him), unless it is to pay - for example - for nursing fees that would not otherwise have arisen ?

Wings


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## tom (25 Sep 2003)

*laffoy*

daltonr comments: 

"They're buying a new jet out of Loose change left over  after paying the claims"

What on earth is this supposed to mean?  If you mean you don't think they should be buying a jet, why don't you say it?  My own feeling is that a country such as ours needs proper travel for our leaders - the sight of our leaders standing embarrassed in a foreign airport whilst they fix the country jet on the runway is not just embarrassing - it is shown as a laugh piece all over the world.. and crucially it impacts on people who make decisions about investing in this country - yea, humans make decisions about such things, and simple things about how you present yourself matter a lot... they matter HUGELY!  If you were making the decision, and you saw that, don't say you wouldn't think again about investing in a country that can't even get a plane to fly their most important people.   Don't let's fool ourselves - if we have government ministers flying in on scheduled flights that save us €10m a year, but we miss out on €500m of inward investment - do the math.  

Of course, you can always point to spending which might seem less morally correct than other spending - YAAAAAAWN.  We spend millions/billions on arts, culture, universities, grants - none of this is immediatley necessary - how can these make sense when we have people on trolliesin hospitals?   It's reprehensible to make such a comparison....  the very life, values and well-being of the country depends on such a balanced spend.  Forget all the 'unnecessary' spend, and you quickly have a banana republic.  Off you go if you want that.


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## AmandaC (26 Sep 2003)

*Compensation Culture*

Wings

Without going into my personal business too much,  my father was an orphan and a ward of the state.  Instead of taking care of children like these,  the state and church chose to ignore the fact that these children were being physically and sexually abused despite evidence being presented at the time. My father saw a young boy die at the age of ten and the accident covered up by those in charge at the time.  

My father is now ill as a result of what happened when he was a child.  He was deprived of a promising career, and is surviving on benefits and has been in and out of hospital all his life.  

Any monetary compensation will not undo what happened to our family, but we are hoping it will make life a little more comfortable for my dad in his old age.

Our family feel it is a little different than an army deafness claim.

This particular tribunal is ensuring that any payments made to people are genuine, there have been 48 cases already dismissed, of people trying to jump on the bandwagon.  Unless there is substance to any claim, it will not be entertained, so all payments will be genuine.

I am sorry that you feel that children abused in care are part of the compensation culture and are not entitled to be compensated,   perhaps if it was your family you might feel a little different.

I also feel that it is great for all this to be out in the open, and that for our family anyway, there is no secrets anymore.

AmandaC


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## Wings Of Chicken 1 (26 Sep 2003)

*Re: Lafoy Commission-Tribunals*

*AmandaC*,

_*"I am sorry that you feel that children abused in care are part of the compensation culture and are not entitled to be compensated...."*_
I did not say this, nor do I feel this way.

_*"I also feel that it is great for all this to be out in the open"*_
Totally agree.

You have answered my third question - your father is now ill as a result of what happened, and you are hoping to make life a little more compfortable for him.

What about the first 2 questions...
1) what amount would you feel appropriate ?
2) how to relate this amount to  what actually happened to him and to many, many others ?

Wings


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## sol (26 Sep 2003)

*Re: Lafoy Commission-Tribunals*

The answer to your question as to how compensation is measured is contained in the Ryan report which is available (i think) on the dept of educations website. It was prepared by psychiatrists, a senior counsel and members of the compensation board in the North. Basically a scale was established which measures the severity of the abuse, the physical/ psychaitric effect, the psychological effect and loss of opportunity. The awards are capped at a maximum of 300k, however the average award is around 80k. But as the earier poster said, nothing can repare the damage which was done.


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## daltonr (27 Sep 2003)

*Re: Lafoy Commission-Tribunals*

Tom, 



> If you mean you don't think they should be buying a jet, why don't you say it?



Could you have inferred any thing else from my post?  Of course I don't think we need the 2 or 3 jets which we'll soon have. (They're keeping the one that kept breaking down, it doesn't have any fundamental problems)

On the occasions when sceduled flight isn't suitable, a jet could be chartered, at MOST one jet should be sufficient.

This is a thought out decision:  Which is more important, a shiny new jet to impress our neighbours when we take over the EU presidency, or fixing up a lot of schools?

Our government has made it's decision.

-Rd


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## vivian kelly (3 Dec 2003)

*army deafness*

I can verify that the majority of army deafness cases that have been compensated have normal hearing for their age 
see www.iol.ie/~deafness


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## Tom (3 Dec 2003)

*fascinating reading*

Re-inforces my original point that the compo culture has become a runaway gravy train, that army deafness business was a disgrace as proved by that report.

(btw the second tom wasn't me)


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