# Grant of Probate



## Ccull123 (23 Oct 2016)

Hi,

Currently in the process of buying a house in south county Dublin. It has just come to light that probate has yet to be applied for. Solicitor for vendor seems to think that he can push it through in four weeks on signing of contracts. He said he will forward a copy of contract it to expedite the sale. Is this normal? Has anyone heard of a grant of probate being completed in that time frame?


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## mathepac (23 Oct 2016)

Grant of probate first, then offered for sale. Cart before horse here IMHO. You cannot sign contracts on a property that is not available for sale. Talk to your solicitor.


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## JohnJay (23 Oct 2016)

mathepac said:


> Grant of probate first, then offered for sale. Cart before horse here IMHO. You cannot sign contracts on a property that is not available for sale. Talk to your solicitor.


There's nothing stopping the sellers solicitor from drawing up contracts and getting the buyer to sign them. The seller cant sign the contract until probate is granted. 

In my opinion as a buyer, most solicitors/executors don't apply for probate until the property is Sale Agreed. I believe there are tax advantages of doing this.


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## Prosper (24 Oct 2016)

JohnJay said:


> In my opinion as a buyer, most solicitors/executors don't apply for probate until the property is Sale Agreed. I believe there are tax advantages of doing this.


JohnJay, what tax advantages could there be in not applying for grant of probate until the property is sale agreed?


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## john luc (25 Oct 2016)

Only thing on tax I can think of is that if the sale price is higher than the probate value then a capital gain tax will apply to the higher difference


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## elcato (25 Oct 2016)

A solicitor advised this for our family also and stated he was confident that he can push the probate through quickly as they get priority. As the process is only getting started now I can't confirm whether the probate got through in the timeframe yet. Capital gains can be applied if revenue feel the sale took too long and may have seen a gain from date of death to date of sale and probate.


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## Prosper (25 Oct 2016)

john luc said:


> Only thing on tax I can think of is that if the sale price is higher than the probate value then a capital gain tax will apply to the higher difference


Yes John Luc, CGT is the only tax I could be liable for. I won't be liable for any CAT as my inheritance is well within the threshold and no gifts worth talking about over the past 25 years. 
Elacto, like you I'm just starting the process. However, we're all agreed to do a personal application i.e. not using a solicitor. The information I have is that the Probate Office have taken a decision not to expedite GOP where there is a Sale Agreed for the family home. Also, if the estate is simple and straightforward (as my fathers is) then using a solicitor will not encourage the Probate Office to give the application special attention. Now it's possible that the Probate Office are simply saying this to discourage people from putting properties up for sale before Grant of Probate issues but I'm going to take them at their word as I'm not prepared to agree a sale with someone and them to have to string them along while waiting for GOP and then have them pull out of the sale and go through the hassle of putting house back for sale.


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## elcato (25 Oct 2016)

I believe solicitors are first in line for probate i.e. they're protecting the interests. If the vendor solicitor is willing to push it through to help his client then why not use it ?


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## Prosper (25 Oct 2016)

elcato said:


> I believe solicitors are first in line for probate i.e. they're protecting the interests. If the vendor solicitor is willing to push it through to help his client then why not use it ?


Elacto, I was in the Probate Office to get the forms to fill and so start the process of applying for Grant of Probate without using a solicitor. I was told that the waiting time for an appointment was 6 months from when they receive the correctly completed forms (CA24) and a further 5 months after that before Grant of Probate. I asked them about putting the house up for sale before GOP and would this shorten the process. The clear answer is no. The implication was that in the past a sale agreed on the property would expedite GOP but that they have taken a decision to discourage it now. I asked if I used a solicitor to handle the GOP application would speed things up and again it appears not to be the case where the estate is simple. So as a result I'm not going to put the house on the market until GOP or until I get a clear indication that it's imminent.


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## Rory_W (25 Oct 2016)

FWIW we went sale agreed on 30 Oct 2015 for a property with probate involved and got keys on 16 March 2016 so it took 4.5 months overall. 

Also bear in mind if getting a  mortgage that your loan offer (which nowadays seem to be issued specific to the property) may expire during the wait and you may have to reapply for a new loan approval


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## Prosper (25 Oct 2016)

Rory_W said:


> FWIW we went sale agreed on 30 Oct 2015 for a property with probate involved and got keys on 16 March 2016 so it took 4.5 months overall.




Do you know when the vendor actually started the probate application process. For example they may have not put the property up for sale until they had the appointment with the probate office. It currently takes 6 months from the time you start the process to the appointment date and from then I've been told it could be about another 4 to 5 months to achieve the Grant of Probate.


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## Rory_W (26 Oct 2016)

Prosper said:


> Do you know when the vendor actually started the probate application process. For example they may have not put the property up for sale until they had the appointment with the probate office. It currently takes 6 months from the time you start the process to the appointment date and from then I've been told it could be about another 4 to 5 months to achieve the Grant of Probate.



from memory when we went sale agreed

I had heard that a solicitor can make an application can be made to expedite the probate once contract signed (e.g. for reasons such as sale will fall through if not issued promptly etc due to loan approval expiring )


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## Prosper (26 Oct 2016)

Rory_W said:


> from memory when we went sale agreed
> 
> I had heard that a solicitor can make an application can be made to expedite the probate once contract signed (e.g. for reasons such as sale will fall through if not issued promptly etc due to loan approval expiring )


The Probate Office are now saying that they will not expedite the grant of probate due to a "sale agreed". Apparently a lot of people have been putting properties on the market before GOP and then they put the probate office under a lot of pressure to expedite the granting of GOP. Maybe a solicitor who they are used to dealing with will get it done a lot faster but for a simple estate such a solicitor will probably charge 8 to 10k. So the question is do you use a solicitor to handle the GOP application and incur that cost without any guarantee that he will be able to get the Probate Office to expedite for a sale agreed. I'm going to continue with the personal application and put the house on the market only when I get the feeling that GOP is imminent.


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## Vanilla (26 Oct 2016)

8 to 10k? Nowhere near.


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## Thirsty (27 Oct 2016)

> It currently takes 6 months from the time you start the process to the appointment date and from then I've been told it could be about another 4 to 5 months to achieve the Grant of Probate.


I did DIY probate last year; they were guiding 26 weeks for appointment date at the time, in the end it took 20 weeks; meeting took around 30 mins and I had my grant on the door step with in a week.


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## noproblem (27 Oct 2016)

My sister in law's mum died 3 years ago and left everything to her. When I say "left everything", I should mention that it was a run down house, (not lived in for 5 +years), on 2 acres in rural Ireland and its value was aprox €100k. Just before her mum died she (her mum) signed everything over but only after remembering that she never took out probate when her own husband died 15 years previously so she got this done just in time to ensure she could pass it on. Just recently my SIL sold the property for €100k and of course she had to take out probate before doing so. To cut a long story short, the sister in law paid the solicitor for her mums probate bill, it came to €3,900.00. She then had to take out probate herself on the same estate and he charged her a reduced €3,500.00 after much complaining about the costs. There were no complications at all in the probate and it was done in just under 6 months in both cases. I've spoken to a few good friends and discussed the costs, etc, they agree that it was very expensive. I'm just wondering if there's people out there other than solicitors who specialise in doing probate for reasonable money? Just wondering?


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## mathepac (27 Oct 2016)

If the poor solicitor has to extend 3 or 4 year's credit for each piece of work, I'm not surprised at bills in that order.


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## noproblem (27 Oct 2016)

mathepac said:


> If the poor solicitor has to extend 3 or 4 year's credit for each piece of work, I'm not surprised at bills in that order.




There was no extended credit given by the solicitor nor was it suggested in what I had written. As for the "poor" solicitor? I assure you he's not.

  An example of overcharging is when you see the following on an invoice for the work I mentioned;

Stationary costs, €250.00.
Telephone costs, €250.00.
Photocopying,     €250.00
Postage,             €250.00.   

Wonderful how the charges worked out like that?


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## Prosper (27 Oct 2016)

Thirsty said:


> I did DIY probate last year; they were guiding 26 weeks for appointment date at the time, in the end it took 20 weeks; meeting took around 30 mins and I had my grant on the door step with in a week.



*Thirsty*, a week after the appointment - well done. Was there a 'sale agreed' on a property that the Probate Office took into account and so expedited GOP ? We're resolved *not *to use a solicitor as the estate is simply a house and some post office state savings. I've the executor account set up, the state savings stuff sorted. The only little delay is the Verizon/Vodafone shares which my father didn't cash in before he died and which were in his and my mothers names. She predeceased him and the fact that she jointly owned the shares with him apparently is a problem. My brother was dealing with this so perhaps he misunderstood something so I'll go up to Compushare in Sandyford next week to see if I can get the information from them. Your post has cheered me up as I really believed, after collecting the forms in the Probate Office, that it would take at least 4 months after the appointment to get GOP.

*noproblem*, thanks for your post. I used my fathers solicitor for my mothers very very modest estate. Just some Post Office savings - a post office book in her own name and a savings cert in both their names - (the post office book with €600 in it which I had given the solicitor was lost and this resulted in a long delay). Achieving GOP took 18 months from when I first met the solicitor and the fee was just over €3,000.  This is why we are not using a solicitor for my fathers estate.

*Vanilla*, do you mean 8 to 10k is too high? It's a lot less than my fathers solicitor indicated the fees would be. I think Dublin solicitors charge more than others.


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## JohnJay (27 Oct 2016)

out of curiosity, does a solicitor have to attend a meeting/interview with the probate office when they handle probate, or do they just send in the required paperwork. 
Prosper - I've never been through the process and probably/hopefully never will, but I think I would also go down the DIY route if I was in your position. Maybe some people have more complicated cases or maybe they are in a hurry to pay bills/fair deal/etc where it would be best to have the services of a solicitor, but for a straightforward case then its worth going DIY. I do think the time frame you are quoting is a bit long though as most people I talk to are saying 4/6 months in total.


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## Prosper (27 Oct 2016)

Not sure if solr has to attend meeting with Probate Office and if they do I'm nor sure if a solr would get the appointment sooner than a personal applicant but when I was in the Probate Office a few days ago I think they said that a solr would not get the appointment sooner and they definitely said that it would be about 6 months from time they receive the application/correctly completed forms to when they call you for the meeting/interview. We used a solicitor for my mothers affairs two years ago and from memory it was many months, maybe even a year before the funeral directors were paid. I got this done by dealing with Dads bank myself to set up the executor account and the funeral director was paid within weeks. I think a solicitor would take a lot longer to get all the preliminary fiddly stuff done than executors would themselves.


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## stiofan85 (10 Nov 2016)

Thought I'd weigh in with my experience of Probate while buying a house in Dublin.

Went Sale Agreed 20th July. 
Signed contracts 1st week of September. 
Seller's solicitor requested to expedite Probate last week of September.
Received notice that Probate was granted earlier this week (5.5 weeks after request submitted)
Expecting to have keys by end of November

All in, it will have taken 4 months from Sale Agreed. We probably could have shaved 2 weeks off if we'd gotten our loan offer together sooner but we had a few delays with documentation due to various parties being on holidays in August.


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## elcato (10 Nov 2016)

stiofan85 said:


> Went Sale Agreed 20th July.
> Signed contracts 1st week of September.
> Seller's solicitor requested to expedite Probate last week of September.
> Received notice that Probate was granted earlier this week (5.5 weeks after request submitted)
> Expecting to have keys by end of November


Interesting that the solicitor only asked for the expediency on the date the contract was signed as oppose to the sale agreed date but it seems that this speeds up the grant very sharpish. I'm guessing that you signed the contract but the seller did not in September.


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## JohnJay (10 Nov 2016)

On the house I am buying, the probate office received the paperwork in Mid-July and grant is expected in 2 weeks time, so this is 4.5 months. This is without the solicitor asking to expedite, but she says that she can if she wants. I only signed contracts this week so she hasn't asked to expedite.  She says she needs a signed contract to get it done faster, but my own solicitor says that she often gets them done faster just with a Sales Agreed notice from the EA.


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## Busyla (10 Nov 2016)

afaik a signed contract is required by the Probate Office before they will expedite the application, they will not expedite on a sale agreed notice. Personal applications generally take longer than applications lodged by solicitors and the probate fees charged by the probate office are doubled for personal applications. I know many solicitors who will deal with probate applications for considerably less than the 8-10K quoted earlier.


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## stiofan85 (14 Nov 2016)

elcato said:


> Interesting that the solicitor only asked for the expediency on the date the contract was signed as oppose to the sale agreed date but it seems that this speeds up the grant very sharpish. I'm guessing that you signed the contract but the seller did not in September.



I should also clarify, Seller's Solicitor only applied for GOP 6th of August. Solicitor told us the Probate Office won't expedite without signed contract.


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## Curlywurly (7 Jan 2017)

Prosper said:


> Elacto, I was in the Probate Office to get the forms to fill and so start the process of applying for Grant of Probate without using a solicitor. I was told that the waiting time for an appointment was 6 months from when they receive the correctly completed forms (CA24) and a further 5 months after that before Grant of Probate. I asked them about putting the house up for sale before GOP and would this shorten the process. The clear answer is no. The implication was that in the past a sale agreed on the property would expedite GOP but that they have taken a decision to discourage it now. I asked if I used a solicitor to handle the GOP application would speed things up and again it appears not to be the case where the estate is simple. So as a result I'm not going to put the house on the market until GOP or until I get a clear indication that it's imminent.



I think you have misunderstood the time frame for probate in a personal application. The Grant should issue within 2 weeks of the appointment if all is in order at the appointment.  The waiting time for the appointment is currently approx 36 weeks from date of lodgement of the application.


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