# Is auctioneer required to notify seller of higher bid



## ash26 (12 Aug 2013)

Hi All 

Myself and my partner have been bidding on a house the last couple of weeks the asking price is €165,000 and our last offer went in on Thursday of €158,000 we then decided to stop but after long talks over the weekend we rang this morning to offer €165,000 only to be informed by the auctioneer that it went sale agreed on Friday at €160,000. The auctioneer informed us that they are not required to tell the seller is this true? We have full mortgage approval for the asking price.

Hope someone can guide us as we are FTB.

Thanks


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## laois1 (12 Aug 2013)

Sorry to hijack thread. Have heard of a similar annoying episode this week with auctioneer - one of the main auctioneers in the country with branches everywhere. Individual enquires re a 2 bed apt not in Dublin. Told there's a bid of 70 k on it. Three business days later another relative enquires re making an appt to view and is told there are 3 separate bids of 95 k on it. The person enquiring says he is no longer interested in viewing but auctioneer says of course you should view it as he feels the 3 offers of 95 k have "fizzled out". There is no way this apt will make 95 k. I'm not speculating on house prices but the auctioneers behaviour is making my friend worried about viewing other properties with this company as there seems to be phantom bidders in the equation. Is there any legal protection for bidders against this scenario....it seems these guys are anything but professional ?


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## browtal (12 Aug 2013)

Phantom bids are nothing new we have experienced it and later got call that bidders had disappeared.
You may have heard that after Taxi drivers Auctioneers are the least trusted people in society?


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## browtal (12 Aug 2013)

Hello

Phantom bids are nothing new we have experienced it and later got call that bidders had disappeared.
You may have heard that after Taxi drivers Auctioneers are the least trusted people in society?
Browtal


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## Luternau (12 Aug 2013)

If Thursday was a best and final offer situation then the auctioneer/seller has to honour the commitment to accept the highest bid at that time. 
If it was not, can you call to the house (if occupied by the seller) or request/insist the auctioneer pass on your new offer to the seller? 
I can see a dilemma for the auctioneer here - if the current highest bidder gets gazzumped, its the auctioneers reputation/credibility that gets damaged in process.


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## MrEarl (13 Aug 2013)

Hello,

Can you put each offer you make in writting and insist the auctioneer / sales agent acknowledge the offer in writting, or even by email ?

... if nothing else, this will give you evidence for the future, if the property is sold to another party and you later find the sale price on the web, so you could then in theory go after the sales person or their business.


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## Padraigb (13 Aug 2013)

There is a simple fact that people seem not to be giving much weight: the property is sale agreed.

It would be wrong of an estate agent to continue a selling effort once an agreement has been reached between the vendor and a purchaser.

While it is not illegal for the vendor to accept a higher offer after a sale has been agreed, many of us would consider it dishonourable.


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## Luternau (13 Aug 2013)

@Padraigb
See my post 5


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## mf1 (13 Aug 2013)

"if nothing else, this will give you evidence for the future, if the property is sold to another party and you later find the sale price on the web, so you could then in theory go after the sales person or their business. "

Go after. For what? There is no contractual relationship between a prospective purchaser and a selling agent. 

And as above, the dealing stops at a certain stage. I know in recent transactions I have seen, some vendors will accept a lower price from a cash purchaser rather than go through  the trauma of dealing with someone trying to extract a mortgage cheque from a lender!

mf


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## rayn (13 Aug 2013)

In my opinion you are being very unfair to Taxi drivers.


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## T McGibney (13 Aug 2013)

I'm gobsmacked by the support for gazumping here, particularly the suggestion that an auctioneer could be sued for refusing to entertain gazumping.


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## emeralds (13 Aug 2013)

The op decided on Thursday to stop bidding and presumably indicated same to EA. Vendors decide on Friday to accept bid from other party. End of story...


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## Jim2007 (13 Aug 2013)

laois1 said:


> The person enquiring says he is no longer interested in viewing but auctioneer says of course you should view it as he feels the 3 offers of 95 k have "fizzled out".



I've known sellers to also have their friends take the tour and put in phantom bids as well!!!  There are so many potential players in this game that you have no way of knowing who the bad guys are....


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## delgirl (13 Aug 2013)

ash26 said:


> ... and our *last offer* went in on Thursday of €158,000 *we then decided to stop* ...


These are the dangers of the hardball negotiation game and, in choosing to use the 'last offer approach', you have to be prepared to take the consequences. 

By placing your 'last offer' on Thursday, the agent was under no obligation to contact you if they received a higher offer or the same offer from a bidder with better circumstances.

Learn from it and put it behind you, hope you find what you're looking for.


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## Jim2007 (13 Aug 2013)

T McGibney said:


> I'm gobsmacked by the support for gazumping here, particularly the suggestion that an auctioneer could be sued for refusing to entertain gazumping.



Exactly!  Once the vendor has accepted an offer, the auctioneer's job is finished, plain and simple.  If someone wants to make an offer to the vendor after that it is between them and to expect that the auctioneer can be compelled to engage in such practices is beyond believe.  I can't recall any legislation under which such an action could be taken, but I'd be interested to hear them.


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## ash26 (13 Aug 2013)

thank you all for taking the time to reply, it is our own fault for pulling out so we cant blame anyone but ourselves! fingers crossed something else will come up.


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## MrEarl (13 Aug 2013)

MrEarl said:


> Hello,
> 
> Can you put each offer you make in writting and insist the auctioneer / sales agent acknowledge the offer in writting, or even by email ?
> 
> ... if nothing else, this will give you evidence for the future, if the property is sold to another party and you later find the sale price on the web, so you could then in theory go after the sales person or their business.




Hello,

I am very sorry but I misread the original post while trying to do two things at once, the result being I had incorrectly understood that the subsequent offer had gone in before, rather than after, the sale agreed.

Entirely my mistake and as a result, please disregard my suggestion.


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## browtal (13 Aug 2013)

I am only repeating from a survey conducted and published a few years ago. I have found Taxi drivers to be the salt of the earth.
Browtal


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## nai (14 Aug 2013)

ash26 said:


> thank you all for taking the time to reply, it is our own fault for pulling out so we cant blame anyone but ourselves! fingers crossed something else will come up.



I can appreciate the points of the others with respect to gazumping and the requirements/obligations of the auctioneer and I know that this thread is about whether the Auctioneer is obliged to pass on the bid but ....

- let's look at this from the OP and the sellers, current buyers and auctioneers point of view.

OP - found a house they really want and decided over the weekend to up their final offer by 7,000 euro and informed auctioneer of same. I don't see why they should give up - property has only gone Sale agreed - it's not sold. Contracts / money will not have been exchanged. If I was OP I would pursue this property and let sellers know of an additional bid - a simple query to sellers, requesting whether they are open to further bids is not inappropriate.

Seller - accepted what they thought was final offer of €160k on Friday. Why shouldn't they be informed of an additional 5,000 offer which would bring property to their asking price ? 5k could mean a huge amount to their daily lives. Also remember there will be no contracts exchanged - buyer can pull out at any stage. Seller has no protection here.

Auctioneer - Obviously feel their job is done - but they should be acting in the interest of their client, not the buyers. So unless the seller has informed them to take property off the market, remove all signage etc, and not to pass on further communications with regard to bids - then their job is not done. The deal has not been closed.

Current Buyers - Obviously going to be happy they got a property at 160k but they can still pull out of the deal at any stage or find another property they like.

OP - buying a house should be treated like a business - if you see a contract / market opportunity you want to win then you should chase it - don't stand meekly to the side and let a middleman make the decisions.


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## dereko1969 (14 Aug 2013)

nai said:


> I can appreciate the points of the others with respect to gazumping and the requirements/obligations of the auctioneer and I know that this thread is about whether the Auctioneer is obliged to pass on the bid but ....
> 
> - let's look at this from the OP and the sellers, current buyers and auctioneers point of view.
> 
> ...


 
Perhaps more creedence should be given to the Current Buyers and to fairness? The Current Buyers have had their bid accepted, if they are gazumped at this stage how is that fair to them? Also, the OP could then pull out of the sale at any time they like too.

I find your advice on all fours with the beggar my neighbour attitude that led the economy to where it is now, it's all me, me, me.


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## nai (14 Aug 2013)

dereko1969 said:


> Perhaps more creedence should be given to the Current Buyers and to fairness? The Current Buyers have had their bid accepted, if they are gazumped at this stage how is that fair to them? Also, the OP could then pull out of the sale at any time they like too.
> 
> I find your advice on all fours with the beggar my neighbour attitude that led the economy to where it is now, it's all me, me, me.



Wow - what a ridiculous post - go back and re-read what I said.

I was posting the situation from 4 different viewpoints.

Nowhere did I mention that you should beggar your neighbour.

I said that buying a house (when it gets down to the business end of money & contracts) should be dealt with as a business transaction.

There are consequences - I was weighing up the consequences from a risk/reward point of view from each perspective.

The point you seem to be missing is that it would not be the OP doing the gazumping - that is the decision for the seller. They would have to weigh up the consequences from both a fairness  and financial perspective.

btw : the economy ended up where it is as a result of policy decisions taken by both government and the financial institutions and financial decisions taken 
by individuals based on emotion and not on a sound financial basis.


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## MrMan (14 Aug 2013)

The risk is huge for the EA and vendor to accept a higher bid after sale agreed. If they accept the late bid, and that falls through in the ensuing weeks, then how do they approach the original buyer? They would suspect as many do that the late bid was just a tactic used to push their buy price up, and would most likely either offer a lower than originally agreed price, or pull out altogether.
By going with the sale agreed bidder, they have the option of falling back on the OP should it fall through at any stage, and they know that the OP is keen because of the increase in bid.


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## ash26 (15 Aug 2013)

Hi All

Just to give you an update, my partner spoke with the seller yesterday and he told him that the auctioneer never told him that we had offered the asking price, that our last offer was substantially lower than what was agreed and also she told the seller we had an issue with getting the mortgage, now our last offer was €158,000 and the house went sale agreed at €160,000 and we never ever mentioned anything to her about having an issue getting approval as there was never an issue with it. 

Please someone tell me that we have a chance here cause we want this house!


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## nai (15 Aug 2013)

OP - I refer you back to my original point  :

OP - found a house they really want and decided over the weekend to up their final offer by 7,000 euro and informed auctioneer of same. I don't see why they should give up - property has only gone Sale agreed - it's not sold. Contracts / money will not have been exchanged. *If I was OP I would pursue this property and let sellers know of an additional bid - a simple query to sellers, requesting whether they are open to further bids is not inappropriate.*


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## ash26 (15 Aug 2013)

Hi Nai

Thanks for your reply, we most definitley are not giving up hope i just hope that the seller will accept our higher offer, he told my partner yesterday to leave it with him....so fingers crossed.


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## kkmaan (1 Sep 2013)

ash26 said:


> Hi Nai
> 
> Thanks for your reply, we most definitley are not giving up hope i just hope that the seller will accept our higher offer, he told my partner yesterday to leave it with him....so fingers crossed.


Hi OP, just wondering what was the outcome. i am in a similar situation myself with an auctioneer acting the maggot.


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## ash26 (6 Sep 2013)

Hi KKMAAN

Unfortunatley we lost the house, we contacted the seller to inform him that we were willing to give the asking price and he still went for the couple who offered €5,000 less.

Hopefully your outcome will be better.


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