# fortune tellers/psychics



## scati

Hi all, just a quick question and feedback would be appreciated, has anyone been to Joe Gough in ashbourne, Co. Meath.  Heard he was brilliant, but dont you always before you go. Have'nt been to a fortune teller in years, and would like to go now because of a personal problem, but would like to hear from the good people of askaboutmoney if he was good or bad.


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## ClubMan

Fortune telling is a scam. Nobody can predict the future. 

Moved from Miscellaneous Non-financial Questions to _Shooting the Breeze_.


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## Sylvester3

ClubMan said:


> Nobody can predict the future.



The great Isacc Asimov would disagree with you there... what about the fantastic science of psychohistory?


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## MrMan

> Fortune telling is a scam. Nobody can predict the future.



Not that you know of anyway, I don't think anything can be ruled out entirely.


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## foxylady

scati said:


> Hi all, just a quick question and feedback would be appreciated, has anyone been to Joe Gough in ashbourne, Co. Meath. Heard he was brilliant, but dont you always before you go. Have'nt been to a fortune teller in years, and would like to go now because of a personal problem, but would like to hear from the good people of askaboutmoney if he was good or bad.


 

Why is that people only tend to go to these when they have a problem?
Do you not think that these fortune tellers are aware of this and are always going to be able to use that to their advantage as well?


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## RMCF

The techniques these people use are easily learned apparently - I think its called 'cold reading'.

I seen a TV programme when Derren Brown pretended to be one in the US and really shocked some of the people involved in this practice, especially when they seen how good he was.

Afterwards he told them he was making it all up.

Its a scam. End of.


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## MrMan

Well if Derren browne says its true I'm sold on that too. Maybe fortune tellers are to some people as mass/prayers are to others?. As long is it doesn't cause upset it shouldn't be a problem.


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## ClubMan

MrMan said:


> Not that you know of anyway, I don't think anything can be ruled out entirely.


Well you cannot of course prove a negative but all available evidence would certainly support the hypothesis that it is a scam/futile exercise.


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## z103

> As long is it doesn't cause upset it shouldn't be a problem.


Well they are making money out of it. That Irish Psychics bloke is a millionaire. Maybe if they are fraudulently making money there is a problem.


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## ClubMan

MrMan said:


> Maybe fortune tellers are to some people as mass/prayers are to others?.


I'd agree with that. Pointless exercises in both cases.


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## z103

> ...available evidence would certainly support the hypothesis...


It may _support_ the hypothesis, but I doubt it actually _proves_ it.
(Okay - re-read your post, and you're pretty much making the same point)


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## ninsaga

I believe that there are are some who have a gift of foreseeing etc. Just because most of use have just five senses doesn't mean that a few have a sixth sense of some degree.


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## pc7

I think they read people and use leading questions, eg I am seeing an older lady who wants to talk to you (99% of people will have a gran/mother/aunt that has died). Have to say I'm sceptical but if you are having problems and feel it will help you, but maybe talking things through with friends would be a better option.


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## stir crazy

why dont they just ban it ?  or at least put a large disclaimer on the bottom of the psychics hotline adverts ? People who spend a lot of money on this kind of crap are in my opinion similar psychologically to gamblers or smokers so I dont see why we cant have  a large warning inserted into every psychic advert?????

Another fantastic idea would be to  put a disclaimer on the bottom of every Bible and Koran that the main ideas of these books are 100% unproven but have I gone too far this time ? ;-)


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## Vanilla

I went to a psychic years ago with a friend of mine who had been widowed. She persuaded me to go with her to this woman who was apparently well known and supposed to be very good. She said a few things that turned out as she said but these were very general and could have applied to anyone. The only thing she said of real substance was that I would have two sons and they would be very involved with sport which is totally untrue.  I went there as a skeptic and left even more convinced that it was utter rubbish. I honestly believe that these people prey on other peoples grief, depression, loneliness. I can absolutely understand why people go to psychics but they wont find what they need there.


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## ClubMan

ninsaga said:


> I believe that there are are some who have a gift of foreseeing etc. Just because most of use have just five senses doesn't mean that a few have a sixth sense of some degree.


You may believe that but there is absolutely no objective scientific evidence to support such a belief. To paraphrase _Bertrand Russell _"just because somebody has not been able to prove that there is not a silver teapot orbiting Mars is no reason to default to believing that one exists".



stir crazy said:


> why dont they just ban it ?  or at least put a large disclaimer on the bottom of the psychics hotline adverts ? People who spend a lot of money on this kind of crap are in my opinion similar psychologically to gamblers or smokers so I dont see why we cant have  a large warning inserted into every psychic advert?????
> 
> Another fantastic idea would be to  put a disclaimer on the bottom of every Bible and Koran that the main ideas of these books are 100% unproven but have I gone too far this time ? ;-)


Why introduce legislation to protect people from their own gullibility/stupidity?


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## Purple

I just keep thinking that there must be another way of making money out of all those stupid people.


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## stir crazy

ClubMan said:


> Why introduce legislation to protect people from their own gullibility/stupidity?



Well ClubMan. Similar legislation already exists with regard to tobacco advertising and gambling.
Since you asked such a question I would like to ask if you believe tobacco should be sold to children or if health warnings should be removed from cigarette packets ? Also should minors be allowed to gamble ?
What about children ? Shouldnt' they be protected ?  Psychics exploit vulnerable people often for large sums of money. Vulnerable people need be not controlled but at least considered by the state.  Psychics engage in false advertising. They should be regulated. Maybe they are but I dont think they are regulated right now. Thats my point.


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## Berlin

I've often wondered why you need to make an appointment to see a clairvoyant. Don't they know you're coming?


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## ninsaga

Berlin said:


> I've often wondered why you need to make an appointment to see a clairvoyant. Don't they know you're coming?



Good one!


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## Caveat

OP, you should ask yourself, if these people genuinely have some special gift how come they're not fabulously wealthy and famous?


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## Jock04

Berlin said:


> I've often wondered why you need to make an appointment to see a clairvoyant. Don't they know you're coming?


 

I knew someone who worked as a clairvoyant.

They gave it up, as they couldn't see any future in it.


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## MrMan

> Well ClubMan. Similar legislation already exists with regard to tobacco advertising and gambling.
> Since you asked such a question I would like to ask if you believe tobacco should be sold to children or if health warnings should be removed from cigarette packets ? Also should minors be allowed to gamble ?
> What about children ? Shouldnt' they be protected ? Psychics exploit vulnerable people often for large sums of money. Vulnerable people need be not controlled but at least considered by the state. Psychics engage in false advertising. They should be regulated. Maybe they are but I dont think they are regulated right now. Thats my point.



Well for starters it would open up a whole can of worms. The damage caused by smoking and gambling has been proven and is acknowledged, whereby quite a number of people do put their faith in fortune tellers. You would have to prove without any doubt that *all *their practices are false and that as a result people lives have been affected (negatively). Many posters here chastise the use of fortune tellers and having faith in a religion, but I find it hard to get passed the fact that there are still so many mysteries in the world and science hasn't answered them all, so I for one would allow for the fact that not everything is cut and dried and there could be things out there that are beyond our comprehension.


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## Carpenter

James Randi has some very interesting things to say about these charlatans:

www.*randi*.org

Basically, as ClubMan says: it's a scam.

Might as well believe in the "Flying spaghetti monster":

http://www.venganza.org/


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## bankrupt

Carpenter said:


> Might as well believe in the "Flying spaghetti monster":
> 
> http://www.venganza.org/



I don't think that Brendan likes sectarian comments on AAM, we pastafarians have every right to celebrate his noodliness without this kind of snide abuse.


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## truthseeker

I read Tarot Cards for friends. I absolutely do not believe that Im telling their future. But they like to believe what they hear. Some of them write down what I read and come back to me months later saying 'you see this meant that and that bit was about the time that I did whatever'. I point out to them that the meanings they assign could be applied to other things in life if they waited long enough or examined enough minute details.

My friends enjoy it - I dont mind doing it, its a harmless laugh. But I can see how easy it would be to absolutely fool (and take money from) a large number of people. And there is a positive feedback loop because I say 'this means you received a sum of money recently' and the response is 'YES YES, I won a fiver on a scratch card!!' hence if I were gullible Id believe that I was indeed the 'CHOSEN ONE' able to read fortunes!!!

The poster who made the comment that perhaps its like mass for some people - I totally agree, its a blind faith.


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## MrMan

> I totally agree, its a blind faith.



Faith is blind by nature, its not a bad thing to not need all the answers.


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## ci1

scati said:


> Hi all, just a quick question and feedback would be appreciated, has anyone been to Joe Gough in ashbourne, Co. Meath. Heard he was brilliant, but dont you always before you go. Have'nt been to a fortune teller in years, and would like to go now because of a personal problem, but would like to hear from the good people of askaboutmoney if he was good or bad.


 
I go to Joe Gough on a regular basis but not for readings or fortune tellings, he does other treatments aswell and he is truly gifted person in other holistic treatments that he does.

But I do have 2 friends and my sister who went to him for readings. They said that while some things he said were very specific to them he didn't tell them anything that they don't already know themselves, so therefore whats the point. 

I don't believe in fortune telling and I've been to many of them over the years, from palm reading to crystal balls to tarot cards. Nothing any of them said ever stuck out in my mind.

What I would highly recommend is Astrology. I went to a guy 2 years ago and have just made an appointment to go back. let me know if you want his details and I'll PM them to you or I can let you know details on what other treatments Joe Gough offers that might be better for you.


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## csirl

> Have'nt been to a fortune teller in years, and would like to go now because of a personal problem, but would like to hear from the good people of askaboutmoney if he was good or bad.


 
I do not think its a good idea to visit someone like this if you are having problems. The only possible outcome is you being relieved of cash.

Fortune tellers are at best entertainers in the same way that magicians such as Paul Daniels are entertainers. At worst, they are scammers who take advantage of vulnerable people with a view to relieving them of cash. 

If you've had problems, organisations such as the Samaratans or a support group related to your problem may be a better bet.


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## csirl

> What I would highly recommend is Astrology.


 
Now were talking real BS.


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## ClubMan

MrMan said:


> Faith is blind by nature, its not a bad thing to not need all the answers.


Whatever about needing them giving up looking for them is a bad thing in my opinion. It breeds ignorance, laziness and fatalism.



ci1 said:


> I go to Joe Gough on a regular basis but not for readings or fortune tellings, he does other treatments aswell and he is truly gifted person in other holistic treatments that he does.


What sort of "holistic" treatments? Are they clinically tested/validated?


> What I would highly recommend is Astrology.


As _csirl _said...


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## ClubMan

stir crazy said:


> Well ClubMan. Similar legislation already exists with regard to tobacco advertising and gambling.
> Since you asked such a question I would like to ask if you believe tobacco should be sold to children or if health warnings should be removed from cigarette packets ? Also should minors be allowed to gamble ?
> What about children ? Shouldnt' they be protected ?  Psychics exploit vulnerable people often for large sums of money. Vulnerable people need be not controlled but at least considered by the state.  Psychics engage in false advertising. They should be regulated. Maybe they are but I dont think they are regulated right now. Thats my point.


Personally I disagree with most legislation designed to protect *grown adults *from their own stupidity, greed, gullibility etc. Obviously minors are a different matter and I never made reference to any of the sorts of things that you mention above so I'm not sure what prompted you to go off on that tangential rant. Ultimately I believe that grown adults should be allowed to do whatever they choose as long as it does not harm the person or property of other non consenting individuals. It may harm themselves but that is their choice. However I realise that we live in a society that does not generally hold the same views as me so I accept the laws that have been enacted that may circumscribe such freedoms and work to change those that I feel are objectionable.


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## truthseeker

ci1 said:


> What I would highly recommend is Astrology. I went to a guy 2 years ago and have just made an appointment to go back. let me know if you want his details and I'll PM them to you or I can let you know details on what other treatments Joe Gough offers that might be better for you.


 
Astrology is another unproven discipline, and again works on much the same principle of assigning 'meanings' to signs read and applying these meanings to events in a persons life. 

I dont think that there is anything wrong in someone drawing comfort or faith from these things, but I do think that its possible that a person could be drawn into making (or not making) important decisions based on false belief - although often decisions are made based on nothing more than gut feeling anyway so perhaps its not a relevant point?


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## MrMan

> Whatever about needing them giving up looking for them is a bad thing in my opinion. It breeds ignorance, laziness and fatalism.



I understand that searching for answers has led to great achievements, progress etc, but the constant search seems to mean that many of us myself included often don't take the time to actually appreciate how amazing things are around us. I know it sounds like I'm smoking a doobie right now but I don't know how to express this opinion without sounding a little 'far out dude'.


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## ci1

Unless these things are tried or you have personally gone yourself for Astrology or any other kind of treatment I can't understand how you can class it as BS!!

An opinion without backup or experience behind it is invalid in my mind.

and as Truthseeker said if people are going because they are looking for answers, or are in grief, or depressed and this is their outlet and they coming away feeling better than that is their perogative.

As I said I went an astrologer and I am going back, I've also recommended him to other people who were amazed at what he told them.
Its nothing to do with zodiac signs and their meanings at all, it is far more indepth and logical than reading your horoscopes in th newspaper, maybe poster should a bit more research before replying to these posts and be a bit more open minded.

To post a comment like this is BS when someone is sharing information is just highly rude and if you don't have anything more constructive than that to say then simply say nothing.


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## truthseeker

MrMan said:


> I understand that searching for answers has led to great achievements, progress etc, but the constant search seems to mean that many of us myself included often don't take the time to actually appreciate how amazing things are around us. I know it sounds like I'm smoking a doobie right now but I don't know how to express this opinion without sounding a little 'far out dude'.


 
far out dude - i hear where youre coming from!!! its good to sit back and appreciate the good stuff thats in the here and now, and ALSO to question and search for answers!!!!

I think some people who want answers want them so badly that its too easy for them to be taken in by fortune tellers and their false belief is so strong that it can leave them wide open to hurt when something they expect and have set their hopes on doesnt happen. In that situation a person is not going to be capable of looking around and appreciating whats good in the here and now.


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## truthseeker

ci1 said:


> Unless these things are tried or you have personally gone yourself for Astrology or any other kind of treatment I can't understand how you can class it as BS!!
> 
> An opinion without backup or experience behind it is invalid in my mind.
> 
> and as Truthseeker said if people are going because they are looking for answers, or are in grief, or depressed and this is their outlet and they coming away feeling better than that is their perogative.
> 
> As I said I went an astrologer and I am going back, I've also recommended him to other people who were amazed at what he told them.
> Its nothing to do with zodiac signs and their meanings at all, it is far more indepth and logical than reading your horoscopes in th newspaper, maybe poster should a bit more research before replying to these posts and be a bit more open minded.
> 
> To post a comment like this is BS when someone is sharing information is just highly rude and if you don't have anything more constructive than that to say then simply say nothing.


 
Actually Ive studied astrology to some degree and have a large number of textbooks on the subject - it IS an interesting concept. But weirdly it was my study of it that robbed me of my belief in it!! I used to be a believer to some extent, but once I understood how it worked and learned the fundamentals of the discipline I stopped believing. That is not to say that I am right though - its just my personal experience.

It was the same for Tarot cards, an interest and belief in my teens led me to investigate it for myself and upon investigation I found that I was no longer a believer.

I dont have any problem with what people draw comfort or feel better from. For some its a cup of tea and a hug, for others its a Tarot reading or a birth chart, who cares so long as the person feels better.

I would only caution against not putting all the eggs in one basket as it were and making decisions that could be potentially life changing based on information given by a fortune teller or astrologer - but by all means, enjoy the experience!!


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## batty

truthseeker said:


> I read Tarot Cards for friends. I absolutely do not believe that Im telling their future. But they like to believe what they hear. Some of them write down what I read and come back to me months later saying 'you see this meant that and that bit was about the time that I did whatever'. I point out to them that the meanings they assign could be applied to other things in life if they waited long enough or examined enough minute details.
> 
> My friends enjoy it - I dont mind doing it, its a harmless laugh. But I can see how easy it would be to absolutely fool (and take money from) a large number of people. And there is a positive feedback loop because I say 'this means you received a sum of money recently' and the response is 'YES YES, I won a fiver on a scratch card!!' hence if I were gullible Id believe that I was indeed the 'CHOSEN ONE' able to read fortunes!!!
> 
> The poster who made the comment that perhaps its like mass for some people - I totally agree, its a blind faith.


 
I read Tarot Cards for friends too & like you I don't believe I'm telling them what their future holds, it's just a bit of fun.

In the past i used to do it at parties or dinner parties but I refuse to now.  People I didn't know would come to me & spill their guts, in the course of the reading i might repeat back something that i'd been told.  The person would say "that's amazing, how did you know that"!!  When I'd say "You just told me" they would still think I had some special powers.

Also it wqas mainly people with problems who would want a reading.  i was always amazed that they were prepared to put credence into anything told to them by a stranger over their Family /friends /own instinct.


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## truthseeker

batty said:


> I read Tarot Cards for friends too & like you I don't believe I'm telling them what their future holds, it's just a bit of fun.
> 
> In the past i used to do it at parties or dinner parties but I refuse to now. People I didn't know would come to me & spill their guts, in the course of the reading i might repeat back something that i'd been told. The person would say "that's amazing, how did you know that"!! When I'd say "You just told me" they would still think I had some special powers.
> 
> Also it wqas mainly people with problems who would want a reading. i was always amazed that they were prepared to put credence into anything told to them by a stranger over their Family /friends /own instinct.


 

batty - its possible you ARE me as my experiences are exactly the same as yours in this regard - its amazing how much people say then refuse to believe they just said it!!! Again it just shows that people reinforce their own belief by only seeing what they want to see.

The Derren Brown phenomna is very similiar, at this point people believe that because its Derren Brown he WILL be able to read their minds, thus putting Derren in a strong position from the outset.


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## csirl

> Unless these things are tried or you have personally gone yourself for Astrology or any other kind of treatment I can't understand how you can class it as BS!!


 
Give me some scientific evidence that it works or at least give me a hypothesis that sounds even vaguely reasonable.


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## ci1

csirl said:


> Give me some scientific evidence that it works or at least give me a hypothesis that sounds even vaguely reasonable.


 
Do you believe that the moon controls the tide?


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## ClubMan

ci1 said:


> Do you believe that the moon controls the tide?


Are you implying that astrological fortune telling is gravity based?



truthseeker said:


> Actually Ive studied astrology to some degree and have a large number of textbooks on the subject - it IS an interesting concept. But weirdly it was my study of it that robbed me of my belief in it!! I used to be a believer to some extent, but once I understood how it worked and learned the fundamentals of the discipline I stopped believing.


How it worked? Discipline? Are you having a laugh?



MrMan said:


> I understand that searching for answers has led to great achievements, progress etc, but the constant search seems to mean that many of us myself included often don't take the time to actually appreciate how amazing things are around us.


Sorry - I fail to see how the two activities might be in conflict or mutually exclusive.


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## redstar

ci1 said:


> Do you believe that the moon controls the tide?



Well, I know it does. Its a physical law, unlike astrology which has no physical laws. However, I also know that the moon has no influence on decisions I might make about my own future. How can it know me personally ?  If it did, I might as well do nothing, make no decisions for myself and just let the stars decide.

Astrology is very subjective, and based on stereotypes - for example, i can 'see' that you are a lady, probably 20 -> early 30's ish ? This is the stereotypical gender/age who go to Astrologers. Does  this mean I am psychic ? No.  But it does show that astrologers only need to right some of the time, because statistically they have a good chance of getting it right by fitting people into their stereotypes, and then using clever questions/statements to zero-in on the 'answer'.

Listen carefully to the verbal exchanges between the astrologer and client. The astrologer will use 'cold reading' (see http://skepdic.com/coldread.html)  and funnelling (start with broad questions, and zero-in on something that is meaningful to the client, based on clients own feedback). The techniques are very good and coupled with the clients frame of mind, body language, nationality, gender age, marital status can appear to be psychic. (how many clients remove wedding/engagement rings before a session ?)

Unfortunately personal experience is very unreliable as evidence. It does not account for other factors such as frame-of-mind (grieving, depressed) or which the client may be unaware of, but which plays a part in the 'reading'. A good Astrologer will figure these out.


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## batty

truthseeker said:


> batty - its possible you ARE me as my experiences are exactly the same as yours in this regard - its amazing how much people say then refuse to believe they just said it!!! Again it just shows that people reinforce their own belief by only seeing what they want to see.
> 
> The Derren Brown phenomna is very similiar, at this point people believe that because its Derren Brown he WILL be able to read their minds, thus putting Derren in a strong position from the outset.


 
Spooky-eh??!!  Maybe we are the same person who has 2 separate personalities & each doesn't realise the other exists!!!


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## truthseeker

ClubMan said:


> How it worked? Discipline? Are you having a laugh?


 
Well I dont like to dismiss something without investigation, so I investigated......

I wish it DID work!! Life would be considerably easier if I could consult the stars!!!


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## truthseeker

batty said:


> Spooky-eh??!! Maybe we are the same person who has 2 separate personalities & each doesn't realise the other exists!!!


 
My goodness - I wonder if this is the mystery exposed of people saying 'oh I saw you in town on saturday afternoon?' whereas really I was nowhere near town on saturday afternoon......


cue the Twilight Zone music..........


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## Purple

truthseeker said:


> Well I dont like to dismiss something without investigation, so I investigated......


 If someone told you that they could tell the future by looking at the hair pattern on your backside would you investigate it or dismiss it out of hand?


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## Pique318

ahh, the notorious 'ring readers'....

Another scam!


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## Caveat

Pique318 said:


> ahh, the notorious 'ring readers'....
> 
> Another scam!


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## truthseeker

Purple said:


> If someone told you that they could tell the future by looking at the hair pattern on your backside would you investigate it or dismiss it out of hand?


 
Depends. If one individual told me Id probably dismiss it out of hand. But if I found out that the Third Reich, numerous american presidents, the Freemasons, the British Royal family, Tibetan Buddhists and other large groups of presumably intelligent and in some cases politically powerful people had had a very strong interest in 'ring reading'  I might well investigate!


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## MrMan

> Sorry - I fail to see how the two activities might be in conflict or mutually exclusive



Where I'm coming from is that atheists, scientists etc tend to dismiss out of hand anything that they feel is physically impossible (greater being, miracles, ressurection etc) and they try to negate the claims of religions and the like by disproving their theories. Many of our 'mysteries' have been answered, but many more have not and people of faith can simply enjoy at the 'wonderment of their lord' whilst cynics want everything in black and white. With science there is no room for the fantastical unless splitting atoms floats your boat.


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## Purple

Pique318 said:


> ahh, the notorious 'ring readers'....
> 
> Another scam!


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## truthseeker

MrMan said:


> Where I'm coming from is that atheists, scientists etc tend to dismiss out of hand anything that they feel is physically impossible (greater being, miracles, ressurection etc) and they try to negate the claims of religions and the like by disproving their theories. Many of our 'mysteries' have been answered, but many more have not and people of faith can simply enjoy at the 'wonderment of their lord' whilst cynics want everything in black and white. With science there is no room for the fantastical unless splitting atoms floats your boat.


 
I think atom splitting is pretty fantastical!!

My favourite story on the subject of science clashing with religion is Carl Sagan asking the Dalai Lama what would he do if science proved that one of the fundamental beliefs of Buddhism was simply untrue - like re-incarnation. The Dalai Lama replied that if the proof was there then Buddhism would have to change. Carl Sagan was surprised by this and asked if he really meant that. 'Of course' replied the Dalai Lama, with a twinkle in his eye, 'but I think you will have a hard time disproving re-incarnation'.


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## batty

truthseeker said:


> My goodness - I wonder if this is the mystery exposed of people saying 'oh I saw you in town on saturday afternoon?' whereas really I was nowhere near town on saturday afternoon......
> 
> 
> cue the Twilight Zone music..........


 
But what if it was you seeing you in town on a Saturday.....even scarier!!


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## RMCF

csirl said:


> Now were talking real BS.


 
Agree 100% with this too.

Astrology is absolute nonsense.

How can the same reading apply to 1/12th of the worlds population at the same time. Tripe.


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## Caveat

RMCF said:


> How can the same reading apply to 1/12th of the worlds population at the same time. Tripe.


 
Good way of putting it.


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## redstar

MrMan said:


> With science there is no room for the fantastical ...



Really ?

If the size of the observable universe, black holes,  colliding galaxies, exploding stars, light-speed,  electricity, gravity, magnetism, the workings of the human-mind, quantum physics and all its 'wierd' consequences to name but a few, are not fantastical then I don't know what is !


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## ClubMan

MrMan said:


> Where I'm coming from is that atheists, scientists etc tend to dismiss out of hand anything that they feel is physically impossible (greater being, miracles, ressurection etc) and they try to negate the claims of religions and the like by disproving their theories.


Looking at the available evidence and concluding that something is unlikely to the point of not needing to be considered possible is quite the opposite of dismissing things out of hand! Not sure why you dragged atheism into this but since you did I would be of the opinion that people who have blind faith in a religious or other belief system would be much more to dismiss things (e.g. anything that conflicted with their blindly held beliefs) out of hand without applying such a systematic approach to things that those with no belief in mysticism, god etc.


> Many of our 'mysteries' have been answered, but many more have not and people of faith can simply enjoy at the 'wonderment of their lord' whilst cynics want everything in black and white. With science there is no room for the fantastical unless splitting atoms floats your boat.


You also seem to be confusing skepticism with cynicism and assuming that wonder only exists where ignorance and belief in mysticism flourish?


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## MrMan

> Really ?
> 
> If the size of the observable universe, black holes, colliding galaxies, exploding stars, light-speed, electricity, gravity, magnetism, the workings of the human-mind, quantum physics and all its 'wierd' consequences to name but a few, are not fantastical then I don't know what is !


But do the above really belong to true science, are the observable universe, black holes, galaxies etc the realm of science. 



> Looking at the available evidence and concluding that something is unlikely to the point of not needing to be considered possible is quite the opposite of dismissing things out of hand!


Then there is quite a difference between labeling something unlikely and labeling it BS or a scam.



> You also seem to be confusing skepticism with cynicism and assuming that wonder requires ignorance and a belief in mysticism.



More that wonder requires an open mind.


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## ClubMan

MrMan said:


> Then there is quite a difference between labeling something unlikely and labeling it BS or a scam.


When the objective scientific evidence supporting/validating something is practically or actually non existent it's not an unreasonable conclusion. 


> More that wonder requires an open mind.


Having an open mind and sanity/reality checking things against the models and evidence available are not mutually exclusive. Some people's minds are so open that they will believe in any old rubbish regardless of the evidence.


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## MrMan

> Having an open mind and sanity/reality checking things against the models and evidence available are not mutually exclusive. Some people's minds are so open that they will believe in any old rubbish regardless of the evidence.



I guess this is a case of agreeing to disagree.


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## stir crazy

ClubMan said:


> Personally I disagree with most legislation designed to protect *grown adults *from their own stupidity, greed, gullibility etc. Obviously minors are a different matter and I never made reference to any of the sorts of things that you mention above so I'm not sure what prompted you to go off on that tangential rant. Ultimately I believe that grown adults should be allowed to do whatever they choose as long as it does not harm the person or property of other non consenting individuals. It may harm themselves but that is their choice. However I realise that we live in a society that does not generally hold the same views as me so I accept the laws that have been enacted that may circumscribe such freedoms and work to change those that I feel are objectionable.



Sorry if you didnt' like my post but I think what I wrote wasn't tangential at all. Children occupy the same space as all of us and thus are most vulnerable to the unregulated psychic hotline advertising. How many parents have had premium phone lines (psychic or otherwise) called without permission by curious children at home ?

How was it a rant ? You asked 'Why introduce legislation to protect 'people' from their own gullibility/stupidity?' and I explained why I feel its necessary. Its' because children are 'people' too and can be our most vulnerable and gullible.
The tobacco/gambling reference was merely a reference point because those issues have already been regulated.


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## ClubMan

stir crazy said:


> Sorry if you didnt' like my post but I think what I wrote wasn't tangential at all.


It was tangential in that it was a total non sequitur to what I posted.


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## stir crazy

ClubMan said:


> It was tangential in that it was a total non sequitur to what I posted.



It wasn't 100% (total?) non sequitur nor was it intended not to be bound by any previous posts. I was addressing the whole audience within the main issue and wasn't just replying to only one previous posters' point. And just to further clarify matters, the post which started this was'nt intended as any form of accusation.


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## Carpenter

Mmmm...the moon appears to be in Sagittarius...


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## batty

Carpenter said:


> Mmmm...the moon appears to be in Sagittarius...


 
No its definitely in Uranus.  This debate is like Deja Vous all over again.


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## truthseeker

RMCF said:


> Agree 100% with this too.
> 
> Astrology is absolute nonsense.
> 
> How can the same reading apply to 1/12th of the worlds population at the same time. Tripe.


 
This is a common misconception about Astrology, in fact it is not just your sun sign taken into account but your moon sign, ascendant and planets in various other houses at the time of birth, so an individuals chart would only match up with a tiny fraction of the population, where you are born also makes some impact.

However - on the side of skeptism - I would be inclined to ask:
How come identical twins born at the same time in the same place dont have exactly the same important events happen on exactly the same dates in their lives?


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## efm

batty said:


> No its definitely in Uranus.


 
There's those pesky ring readers again!


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## Remix

One often used purpose of astrology/superstition, if one is so disposed, is to make use of one of Schopenhauer's rules.

Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860) was a philosopher and also it seems was a bit of a chancer. He wrote “38 Ways to Win an Argument" which details all the unfair, cheatin', and downright mean tactics which can be employed to win an argument even when truth is not on your side.

Rule#32
A quick way of getting rid of an opponent's assertion, or of throwing suspicion on it, is by putting it into some odious category.
A good odious category is "superstition".


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## ClubMan

truthseeker said:


> However - on the side of skeptism - I would be inclined to ask:
> How come identical twins born at the same time in the same place dont have exactly the same important events happen on exactly the same dates in their lives?


Because there is no independent, objective evidence of any note supporting any claims that astrology "works" perhaps?


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## ClubMan

Remix said:


> A quick way of getting rid of an opponent's assertion, or of throwing suspicion on it, is by putting it into some odious category.
> A good odious category is "superstition".


A quicker way is to look at the available evidence supporting claims of efficacy and then draw conclusions...


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## truthseeker

ClubMan said:


> Because there is no independent, objective evidence of any note supporting any claims that astrology "works" perhaps?


 

Exactly!!! And hence - I am an unbeliever.


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## pAnTs

Caveat said:


> OP, you should ask yourself, if these people genuinely have some special gift how come they're not fabulously wealthy and famous?



id say he is, he's 60 euros for 30 minutes and is chocker bloc all day, 80 euros for the night!!!


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## Simeon

Surely easier dosh for them to put their lot on the 3.45 at the races ........ if hey can forecast the future. These guys are charlatans - feeding off gullibility. The old TP Barnam saying comes to mind.


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## rabbit

Simeon said:


> Surely easier dosh for them to put their lot on the 3.45 at the races ........ if hey can forecast the future. These guys are charlatans - feeding off gullibility.


 
I agree.


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## truthseeker

Total rubbish, no such thing as anyone predicting the future.

However - I do think that perhaps when people go with a problem that the whole ceremony of clairvoyance (perhaps reading the palm, or using tarot cards) can help focus the individuals mind on their own issue and they end up dealing with their issue or feeling better about it because they use the session as a tool to gain answers from within.

Other than that its total poppycock.


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## Chocks away

truthseeker said:


> Total rubbish, no such thing as anyone predicting the future.
> 
> However - I do think that perhaps when people go with a problem that the whole ceremony of clairvoyance (perhaps reading the palm, or using tarot cards) can help focus the individuals mind on their own issue and they end up dealing with their issue or feeling better about it because they use the session as a tool to gain answers from within.
> 
> Other than that its total poppycock.


Surely the tarot card is merely a tool of the trade as the clairvoyant already knows which cards will show up If you meant credit card, that would be more to the point IMO


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