# Refused planning permission..is it better to appeal to An Bord Pleanala or reapply?



## Dinarius (24 Apr 2009)

.....well, refused part of my application.

We live in a 3-bed semi in a 1950s estate in South Dublin.

The application was for: Single storey extension at rear, dormer extension at side and rear, attic conversion including velux rooflight to front elevation.

We were refused permission by Dun Laoghaire Rathdown CoCo for both dormers, and the Velux rooflight at the front of the house.

We were granted permission for everything else.

1. The reason we chose the architect we did is because he designed a superb extension (including side-dormer) for a house just around the corner from us.

2. The entire estate is peppered with rear dormers, some that have been granted permission by DLR CoCo., some not.

3. The entire estate is peppered with rooflights (Veluxes) on front elevations, most of which are there with permission granted by DLR CoCo. As I type, I can see a house directly opposite with three front Veluxes AND a side dormer.

..

To say that I am mystified and disillusioned is an understatement. DLR CoCo's servers and filing cabinets are stuffed with precendents for exactly what we applied for and they say no. No consultation, no compromise, no discussion. Nothing. 

I've just been on the phone to three builders that we had had preliminary meetings with to tell them it's off for the forseeable future. One said that even if we had gone for a pre-planning meeting (we didn't because we weren't applying for anything they hadn't seen before) it is a lottery as to who actually considers your application subsequently. Even more extraordinary is that there is NO reference back to the pre-planning meeting by the planning officer that does consider your application. 

Another builder said that rather than waste two months of the applicant's time (with a new application) for an additional couple of hundred euros in fees, they might try and get people back to work by granting permission and having the successful applicant spend a couple of hundred thousand.

We are now faced with an appeal to An Bord Pleanala - 4-8 months - and the hope that they will overturn the refusal. (Without reference to DLR CoCo's own planning precedents that would be unlikely, since the planner who considered our application didn't bother to refer to them) or a new application. Meeting them to show them printouts of successful applications on their own website is not an option - apparently, our case is now sub-judice. 

If I felt that we had applied for something out of order I would have met them, but I know we didn't.

D.


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## Mommah (24 Apr 2009)

*Re: I've just been refused planning permission.......*



Dinarius said:


> The power vested in these individuals is truly extraordinary. And once again, as with just about everything that happens in this country (voting machines) there in NO accountability. None whatsoever. That is our real crime.


 
I agree 100%
Sorry your dealing with this...trying to think of a polite word that will get past the censors...but you know what I mean.

There is NO accountability or departmental responsibility in the planning office. Its absolutely crazy what they get away with .....crazy.

But on the other hand they were the only break on the construction boom.....so it could've been much worse without them acting as a barrier to anything and everything.


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## ajapale (24 Apr 2009)

*Re: I've just been refused planning permission.......*

What is your question?

If this is just a rant I can move it to Letting Off Steam.


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## Dinarius (24 Apr 2009)

*Re: I've just been refused planning permission.......*



ajapale said:


> What is your question?



On the balance of probabilities, is it better to appeal to An Bord Pleanala or reapply to DLR CoCo?

D.


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## jhegarty (24 Apr 2009)

*Re: I've just been refused planning permission.......*

How much bigger than being planning exempt is it ?


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## ajapale (24 Apr 2009)

*Re: I've just been refused planning permission.......*



Dinarius said:


> On the balance of probabilities, is it better to appeal to An Bord Pleanala or reapply to DLR CoCo?
> 
> D.



Ive edited your title to reflect the question.

aj
moderator


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## sydthebeat (24 Apr 2009)

*Re: I've just been refused planning permission.......*



Dinarius said:


> On the balance of probabilities, is it better to appeal to An Bord Pleanala or reapply to DLR CoCo?
> 
> D.



if you can resolve the reasons for the issues then, reapply...

if you cannot, and feel unjustified by the decision, then appeal...

but high level gable windows and dormer windows in a location where they are not a traditional feature, wouldnt have much hope with ABP...


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## Dinarius (26 Apr 2009)

*Re: I've just been refused planning permission.......*



jhegarty said:


> How much bigger than being planning exempt is it ?



It's way under the 40 sq. mtrs. allowed. In any case, we got planning for the bit that increases the foot print of the house, but were refused planning for the dormers and the front roof-lights.

I've now photographed the dormers (side and rear) in our area, as well as a selection of the front elevation roof lights, all of which have been given planning. We will probably re-apply and have a pre-planning meeting.

I want to sit opposite one of these planners, show them a selection of A4 prints of their decisions and then tell me why we were refused.

The system is inconsistent, opaque and arbitrary - I just want some consistency. But this is Ireland, I may be expecting too much.

Many thanks for the advice.

D.


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## ajapale (26 Apr 2009)

*Re: Refused planning permission..is it better to appeal to An Bord Pleanala or reappl*

Hi Dinarius,

Have you engaged the services of any professional _planning_ advisors (or achitects/engineers/technicians who _specialise_ in planning issues) in your application?

I dont know much about planning but I do know that poor planning decisions in the past should not influence good planning decisions in the present.

aj


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## murphaph (26 Apr 2009)

*Re: Refused planning permission..is it better to appeal to An Bord Pleanala or reappl*

I know it's frustrating but just because the council issued permission to similar features in the past is no guarantee they'll be as lax in future. If the council's latest development plan opposes front velux windows (as most do now I believe) and rear dormer windows then it's seen as irrelevant if such low quality planning was allowed in the past. Lots of hideous stuff was allowed in the past but isn't allowed now. A PITA for yourself of course but at least they've granted you the permissions to extend the footprint. You should be able to design around their conditions.

Totally agree that the system is a mess and particularly hate that a pre-planning consultation is as good as useless given the planner doesn't even have to make reference to it! In the UK this is not the case at all-they encourage dialogue from the start. There are 88 planning authorities in the RoI! This disjointed set up is never going to deliver reasonable consistency across the land.


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## Lorz (28 Apr 2009)

*Re: Refused planning permission..is it better to appeal to An Bord Pleanala or reappl*

We were victims of the wonderful Irish planning process for 5 yrs.  Our neighbour was granted planning, another neighbour was shot down 1 week after this and we were shot down 7 weeks later - it wasn't a design issue it was lack of services.  Our arguement was that this was "overlooked" for the 1st neighbour and as there was now a precident we should have been granted pp.  Their response was "if indeed we have made a mistake the correct course of action is to ensure that we don't make such a mistake again!"  Obviously, it's a   coincidence   that the neighbour who was granted pp is a council employee!

Anyway, we decided to appeal to ABP and paid a planning consultant €4k for the 2 page letter but were afterwards told by several people that this was a BIG mistake.  ABP decisions take about 6-7months and rarely overturn the council's decision.  We were also told not to make a resubmission to the council unless there was a "substantial change in circumstances".    

So, from our experience, I would forget about ABP, try and arrange a preplanning apt with the area planner and try and work out what they will approve.  Not much point in arguing with them - it got us nowhere and we went to the very top of the council - Dir. of Services.  Good luck.


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## runner (28 Apr 2009)

*Re: Refused planning permission..is it better to appeal to An Bord Pleanala or reappl*

Planning, it is a mess. You have 2 goverment agencies who only agree in about 30% of the time regarding decisions. BPP seem to apply stricter enforcement than the local authority (dlrcoco). 30% of dlrcoco planning approvals are subsequently reversed on appeal to BPP, that is when the LA have given approval. A much small percent of LA refusals are reversed to approval by BPP.
So, the pragmatic answer is that given it takes nearly 8 months to go through the BPP loop and given your refusal by the LA, it MIGHT be better to reapply to the LA and go that route as its quicker. Importantly, were there any objectors to you original plans, as only these can object to your approval (if and when you get it), if they go to BPP.
Im neither a planner or work in the industry - just have had experience of dealing with both dlrcoco and BPP.


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## Dinarius (28 Apr 2009)

*Re: Refused planning permission..is it better to appeal to An Bord Pleanala or reappl*

Thanks for all the feedback.

I now have 13 photographs of side dormers, rear dormers and front elevation rooflights in the area that have been granted permission.

We are going to go the re-application route. 

Just had a meeting with a third builder - stunned that we were refused permission. 

He also agreed that the worst thing is the three months lost every time you are refused. He suggested a clarification system where the planner would call the architect and call them in for a fee - say, €150 - and sort out any problems. To avoid the local authority making this a source of easy income, they would be restricted to, say, two clarification meetings per application. Just about anyone would avail of this, I reckon. Eminently sensible. 

D.


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## Mpsox (28 Apr 2009)

*Re: I've just been refused planning permission.......*



sydthebeat said:


> if you can resolve the reasons for the issues then, reapply...
> 
> if you cannot, and feel unjustified by the decision, then appeal...
> 
> but high level gable windows and dormer windows in a location where they are not a traditional feature, wouldnt have much hope with ABP...


 
Wouldn't agree with that, neighbour applied to build such a monstrosity next to us which would have resulted in us having no natural light on one side of the house, local council refused him twice, ABP examiner recommended that it be rejected and what did ABP do? Granted planning permission. A complete and utter farce and we ended up selling as a result


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## Dinarius (28 Apr 2009)

*Re: I've just been refused planning permission.......*



Mpsox said:


> Wouldn't agree with that, neighbour applied to build such a monstrosity next to us which would have resulted in us having no natural light on one side of the house,



I should have mentioned that we have had not a single objection. All our immediate neighbours really like the scheme, in fact.

D.


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## dereko1969 (28 Apr 2009)

*Re: Refused planning permission..is it better to appeal to An Bord Pleanala or reappl*

your point about bringing in the architect is already catered for in the pre-application meeting, if you had had that meeting then it's likely that the issues relating to velux windows and dormers would have been raised then.

as has been pointed out, and it is very frustrating, just because something 'bad' was done before does not make it 'right' as precedence.

also, i'd remove the link you posted as it could be reasonably easy to identify your house if some planner annoyed at your claims cared to search - how many projects does that architect have in goatstown?


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## sydthebeat (28 Apr 2009)

*Re: I've just been refused planning permission.......*



Dinarius said:


> I should have mentioned that we have had not a single objection. All our immediate neighbours really like the scheme, in fact.
> 
> D.



dinarius...

on the planning application you linked to, the side dormer window is giving light to a circulation space (the stairwell).... was your window giving light to a circulation space or to a room... because theres a big difference... 

also, as has been mentioned above, president is never an argument with the council.... because they say they wont repeat previous mistakes and also because policies are always changing and what was granted 15 years ago may not conform to todays policies...

mpsox, my points are still valid. Your situation is specific to you.


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## Dinarius (28 Apr 2009)

*Re: I've just been refused planning permission.......*



sydthebeat said:


> dinarius...
> 
> on the planning application you linked to, the side dormer window is giving light to a circulation space (the stairwell).... was your window giving light to a circulation space or to a room... because theres a big difference...



...to the landing that the attic stairs leads to. The attic room is separate.

D.


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## Pantone (28 Apr 2009)

*Re: Refused planning permission..is it better to appeal to An Bord Pleanala or reappl*

What did DLRCC give as their reasons for refusing the dormers, the porthole window and the Velux rooflight at the front of the house?  

Have you read the planner's report to get their assessment of the proposal?  It might give you a better idea of what they were thinking when they made their decision?  

Perhaps they quoted a particular policy or objective of the Development Plan which is against such features?

It might be a good idea to do a little research into the development plan and its policies before you go to meet the planners again so that you are fully prepared and can perhaps give reasons as to how your proposal accords with its provisions?


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