# job-seekers - subsidiary employment provision.



## Turdus (2 Apr 2011)

Hi ,

I have a question in relation to the job-seekers benefit scheme. More  specificly, my query relates to the special provision: subsidiary  employment.

This is my recent employment story; during the last four years, I have had the following two jobs:
- A standard full time employment, which can be seen as the typical job undertaken within normal working hours
- A part-time job outside normal working hours, 2 days a week from 18:30 to 21:30.

Unfortunately, my full time job ceased last February. However, I maintained my subsidiary part time job. I registered in the job-seekers benefit scheme, under the special  provision: subsidiary employment. Basically, since working outside  ordinary hours does not stop a job-seeker to accept a full time job  within normal working hours (as I was previously doing ), the full  social welfare payment can be kept.

Now is when the story gets complicated...
When, I registered in the system, I mentioned that I might work for a  few limited number of hours in ordinary working hours. The staff member  dealing with my case on that day gave me a phone number and told me to  just ring that number to inform them of my sporadic employment.
I found work for a short period of 3 weeks, working 2 days a week for just 2 hours. (12 hours in total). The first 2 weeks of work took place before my assigned signing day; In order to update my records, I  followed their instructions and I rang the number given to me. For the last week of work (after signing day), I rang that  number again in order to update my records. Now, is when the problems  and confusion really started...

In contrast to all previous communications, this time I was told that if  you work one day outside your subsidiary employment, you should be moved  from the subsidiary employment scheme to the casual scheme. My answer  was that, firstly, I had been previously told a completely different story and,  secondly, that my sporadic employment was terminating this same week and  I was going to return to my the previous situation ( part-time job  outside normal working hours).
Their answer was that I could not return to the previous subsidiary  work scheme and that I will now remain in casual, which implies the loss of my previous subsidiary work entitlements 

I told them that if had known that by working those 12 hours I was going  to lose my subsidiary work entitlements I would not have agreed to do that  sporadic job. In other words, by working less you get higher social  welfare payments, which seems like a complete flaw in the system.
Since I had received two contradictory informations, I asked for a  further explanation from a manager. His explanations were not too  convincing and I just asked him for the article/document that states  this given scenario: subsidiary employment benefits terminate if one hour  of work is undertaken ...
He did not have any information of that kind, and he alluded to this  being an administrative decision based on a set of guidelines given to  them. He showed me a print out from welfare.ie (welfare.ie/EN/OperationalGuidelines/Pages/jb_jobseekben.aspx).  However, this does not include any statement in relation to the  conditions in which the subidiary work social welfare entitlements terminate.

It seems to me that he just applied a subjective interpretation of the  guidelines, without any official document to back up his decision, which  he refered to as having an "administrative" nature.

What is your view on this? 
Even though I have been misled by contradictory information I would, of  course, be happy to be probed he is right. Is there an official document  that supports his decision?
Am I misunderstanding something?

Thanks a lot!!!


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## Ildánach (4 Apr 2011)

The "if I knew" argument will not wash, they don't care if you maximise your income, they just care that you are genuinely seeking and available for work, by saying you wouldn't have taken the work, then you are essentially saying that you would refuse work, and may end up getting punished as a result.

But I do think you have a good argument about the subsidiary employment.  There is no written policy (as far as I know) to say that once you get some casual work that you cannot go back to the subsidiary employment when that casual work dries up, although of course they would be entitled to check that your employment was still subsidiary.  The whole point is that your subsidiary work is subsidiary and you are still genuinely seeking and are available for your normal work.

If you can't get anywhere by discussing it with them, then ask for the decision in writing and appeal it.


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## pjuegos (4 Apr 2011)

Sorry, I posted incorrectly. I managed to edit the post, but not to delete it.  
could this post be deleted by the admin?


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## Turdus (4 Apr 2011)

Ildánach said:


> If you can't get anywhere by discussing it with them, then ask for the decision in writing and appeal it.



I mentioned to the manager that if he did not show me any documentation that supports his decision, I would have to appeal it.  However, his answer was that administrative decisions can not be appeal. He reiterated that once you change from the subsidiary to the causal scheme, it is not possible to return to subsidiary, even though my working hours are still outside ordinary working hours...


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## Husker (5 Apr 2011)

Decisions about your entitlements should not be based on guidelines.  There is legislation covering subsidiary employment here:

[broken link removed]

Article 44 covers it.  I would think you have a good case that your subsidiary employment remains subsidiary to your usual employment even if you have taken up casual work.


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## Turdus (5 Apr 2011)

thanks for the link. There is nothing in that document that states i will lose my subsidiary employment entitlements if I take casual work, which confirms what Ildanach mentioned in his post above.

I also think I have a case. However, how do I appeal? According to that manager, the decision can not be appealed

Cheers


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## Ildánach (7 Apr 2011)

While administrative decisions themselves cannot be appealed, if this leads to a disentitlement or reduction in the Benefit itself, then that can be appealed.


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## Turdus (8 Apr 2011)

I went back to the social welfare and I tried to explain them my case one more time. They reiterated that once you move from Subsidiary to casual, you cannot go back to the subsidiary scheme, even if the conditions of the subsidiary work do not change...very very frustrating, it was like talking to a wall and at the same time being treated as someone that wants to take advantage of the system...

In the meantime I have found a full time job starting in May. I think it is mad that they are penalising me because I tried to find work... However, I think I am going to let it go. This injustice will only affect my April payments and sometimes saving time, frustration and energy has more value than the social welfare cut... 

Ildanach, Husker, thanks to you both for your replies and help on this

cheers


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