# Architects fees (cost per hour)



## LouisCribben (26 May 2010)

I've been reading AAM threads for months now, and one thing I have learned is that when building a house you get a much better result on average by employing an architect than not employing an architect.


The fees which architects charge, say it's something between 6% and 12% of the cost of the house.
For a 200'000 new house, an architect might charge 20'000 fees for a full service.

I'm just wondering how many hours work an architect would have to put in on average to get €20'000, i.e for a full build new house

If the answer is say 40 hours, then €500 an hour, sounds an aweful lot !

However if the answer is say 400 hours, €50 an hour, sounds rather better value.

I know architects work on a project is staggered, a few hours here, several more hours there, but they can take on several projects at the same time.


----------



## Superman (26 May 2010)

LouisCribben said:


> However if the answer is say 400 hours, €50 an hour, sounds rather better value.



€50/hr was about it during the boom. Depends on the Architect though - some might be able to charge high figures and give a crappy service.


----------



## Brigid (26 May 2010)

The same question crossed my mind, we just got a quote for doing hte tender drawings and specs only (and helping us to reconsider them depending on cost thereafter) and it was €4850 plus VAT.  Too much for me I am afraid.  I am sure that the architect is excellent and well worth it all etc but it is still too much for me to pay!  I know that we presented as high maintenance clients (which of course we won't be we just need clarification on issues) but even still how many hours did he think he'd be giving us for that?


----------



## LouisCribben (26 May 2010)

Superman said:


> €50/hr was about it during the boom. Depends on the Architect though - some might be able to charge high figures and give a crappy service.


 

€50/hour you say

This means if you build a 200sqm house for say €200'000, the architect who gets €20'000 fees will devote 400 hours of his/her time

That's a lot of hours. The equivalent of 10 working weeks.

I'm sure for 400 hours effort from an architect, you'd end up with everything really well thought out and well executed to a great level of detail.


----------



## LouisCribben (26 May 2010)

Brigid said:


> The same question crossed my mind, we just got a quote for doing hte tender drawings and specs only (and helping us to reconsider them depending on cost thereafter) and it was €4850 plus VAT. Too much for me I am afraid. I am sure that the architect is excellent and well worth it all etc but it is still too much for me to pay! I know that we presented as high maintenance clients (which of course we won't be we just need clarification on issues) but even still how many hours did he think he'd be giving us for that?


 
€4850.
Would you be happy if the Architect gave you 100 hours of his/her time at €50/hour on the project for this ?

But could it take 100 hours to do tender drawings and specs only ?


----------



## Brigid (26 May 2010)

I figure that discussing things with us would take say 2 full days i.e. not more than 16 hours - obviously not in one go.  I do want to be advised as to what materials are better/best/not good before we make up my mind on what should be in the specs and then someone will have to do the drawings - dont know how long that would take but that quote was on the proviso that we would get the original CAD drawings to him.  Of course we would probably have to re-visit the specs once we get the costings done and get further advice on what to do, but I still dont think that it would go to 100 hours.... but then I am not an architect!!


----------



## Shawady (27 May 2010)

Brigid said:


> I figure that discussing things with us would take say 2 full days i.e. not more than 16 hours - obviously not in one go. I do want to be advised as to what materials are better/best/not good before we make up my mind on what should be in the specs and then someone will have to do the drawings - dont know how long that would take but that quote was on the proviso that we would get the original CAD drawings to him. Of course we would probably have to re-visit the specs once we get the costings done and get further advice on what to do, but I still dont think that it would go to 100 hours.... but then I am not an architect!!


 

Brigid, did your architect break down the fees for you?
We are currently doing an extension and our architect's fees came in at €4,250. However , the fess were broken down so we could use him just for original drawings and planning permission stage, which I think came to €1,700.
I initially thought our quote was high but having been through the process I can see it was money well spent. I can actually seen areas he has saved us some money and the design will work much better than the one we had planned.


----------



## Brigid (27 May 2010)

No, he didn't really, as in he didnt allocate it to certain tasks.  I am not inclined to go back to him to ask him. I figure that he doesn't really want to work with us when he set his fee at that. He told us that for doing the tender drawings it woudl be between 3,500 and 5,000 plus VAT.  We didnt think that we would come at the higher end of the scale. Maybe we are meant to negotiate with him but I am not inclined to do that.  I dont think that we would have come across as 'difficult' clients but certainly as people who dont really have their minds made up about just about anything ... but that is because we want to be advised.  it is a bit of a vicious circle!


----------



## Shawady (27 May 2010)

Well if you want to get a second quote I can pass on the details of the person I am using.


----------



## onq (27 May 2010)

This saga of Brigid's house seems to be going in forever.
She'd have it half-built by now if she'd appointed a competent building professional!

Brigid tells us she got a quotation for tender set drawings plus an open-ended reconsideration option and is concerned about the cost.
_"for doing hte tender drawings and specs only (and helping us to  reconsider them depending on cost thereafter) and it was €4850 plus VAT"_

Given the amount of posts Brigid has made here and the fact that she has still not settled on the design I would not have given her a fee quote that included revisions.
I would have advised her to retain a QS who could perform a detailed cost extimate on the basis of several different sets of specifications.
When she had settled on the spec/cost balance she could then instruct the architect what to draw up.

In both cases she would be paying fees for the professional work done.
In the QS's case it would be the number crunching required to satisfy Brigid's need for alternative prices - unlikely to be under €3K from my experience.
In the Architect's case it would be the designing of a compliant set of details but also the initial briefing of the QS on the specification form(s) of construction and heating systems chosen to achieve compliance with Part L.

You do not issue different sets of tender drawings to obtain costs  on from builders, expecting the architect to carry the overheads for  revisions to what are very nearly working drawings, and/or expecting  builders to spend a lot of time performing several different tender  estimates on the same house. What puts food on their table while they  are doing that?
You make the big decisions with your design team, using people who can  stand over costs and details, not believing every fairy tale on prices  issued by builders, some of whom these days are close to being bankrupt.

There is a process of design that has to be gone through and it must be paid for - the "drawings" are only the end product of that design process, but in and of themselves they also form the basis of Building Regulation Compliance drawings.
Being led solely by your pocket because you won't be advised on what should be done is very much down to the individual, but this parallels the head-in-the-sand attitude of some of David Grant's clients, many of whom went to him on promises he couldn't later keep - *despite* being told by competent building professionals beforehand what the outcome of a particular appplication would be.

Re dodgy builders one client we are aware of has been left with a half completed dwelling, the  builder having been paid in advance to secure his "services" and then  disappearing after 3 months on the job.
 Badly advised, looking for bargains, misplaced trust in the builder.

I will not be surprised to see Brigid here in 6 months time complaining she won't be in for Chrstmas and the builder has let her down and the architect she eventually selects who was paid €3,000 JUST to do a set of tender drawings [and having redone them twice] won't attend on site and sort out her problems.

Yes, you can approach a job on a "package of information" basis, but that's not how you build a house.
"Oh we got a project manager in and he was wonderful", may be the eventual resolution of the matter.
That's fine - but that's what an architect does on small works - and a PM cannot certify the building.

You get what you pay for.

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon                            as a defence or support - in and of itself -       should       legal        action    be      taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in                            Real Life with rights to inspect and issue     reports    on     the         matters    at      hand.


----------



## z101 (27 May 2010)

I think Brigid has a point.

Having gone through a whole bunch on this subject I believe architects need a reality check. A lot simply value what they do too highly. 70% of house's in this country have no architect involvement and it's not lost on people that, for the most part, these house's are not falling down. Put another way they were opportunities for architects to make sales that were lost. The fees that architects charged during the boom times reflected the clients. Mainly well to do people building large house's (speaking about one off builds). 
Ordinary people building a new house tend to have to cut budgets and make decisions and it seems to be lost on architects that ordinary people's main concern is getting a decent house well built as against missed opportunities to do something unique etc. 
I dont think the average architect understands a regular person but rather those on bigger budgets. Until they do this wont change. I would suggest they need to understand alot of people dont want something extravagant, but interpret a brief usually defined around something people have seen somewhere else. Then figure out what what they want to put into it and move on. As it would not be from a complete conceptional start the fees should reflect this and be 'much' lower. I think if architects met people half way as such they would get a load more business.
A sea-change in thinking is needed with architects in this country, especially at the moment.
As for those looking for an architect, remember something is only worth what someone will pay for it and archtiects are no exception to this. From our experience some would rather have no work rather than go below a certain price but setting a budget and let them take it of leave it can work with others.


----------



## onq (28 May 2010)

I think that sums is up nicely Ceatharlach.

ONQ.


----------



## Brigid (28 May 2010)

Many thanks to both of you. Firstly ONQ you say that we havent settled on a design. We have. we have obtained planning permission for a design so that is that settled! secondly you say that we should engage a QS - surely first we would need to have the tender drawings sorted? How do we brief a QS without having been advised, presumably by an architect, as to what materials should be used in a house? it seems to be a chicken and egg type of situation. You think we shoudl go down the QS route first, I thought we should get advise first!

I am sorry you are so personal about it - I promise I wont be complaining that I am not in by Christmas. A time deadline is certainly not my difficulty. I am going to be investing a large amount of time and money in this venture and I want to be sure that it is done correctly and I make informed choices. Having said that I4850 plus VAT is over my budget although no doubt I would have got excellent advice from the architect in question.


----------



## LouisCribben (28 May 2010)

Brigid said:


> Having said that 4850 plus VAT is over my budget although no doubt I would have got excellent advice from the architect in question.


 
What is your budget for an architect ?  

There is nothing wrong with wanting a very good value architect. The world of business is governed by suppy and demand, offer and acceptance. At the moment there is relatively high supply, and relatively low demand.

During the building boom, finding a cheap architect was probably like trying to find a hens tooth, but for a little while at least, things have changed.
No architect has to take on low price work if they don't want to, nobody should feel guilty for trying to find value for money.


----------



## onq (28 May 2010)

Brigid said:


> Many thanks to both of you. Firstly ONQ you say that we havent settled on a design. We have. we have obtained planning permission for a design so that is that settled! secondly you say that we should engage a QS - surely first we would need to have the tender drawings sorted? How do we brief a QS without having been advised, presumably by an architect, as to what materials should be used in a house? it seems to be a chicken and egg type of situation. You think we shoudl go down the QS route first, I thought we should get advise first!
> 
> I am sorry you are so personal about it - I promise I wont be complaining that I am not in by Christmas. A time deadline is certainly not my difficulty. I am going to be investing a large amount of time and money in this venture and I want to be sure that it is done correctly and I make informed choices. Having said that I4850 plus VAT is over my budget although no doubt I would have got excellent advice from the architect in question.



This isn't personal as in name calling, this is me trying to advise you where seem to be about to put your foot in it.

The job of the client.
Briefing a QS is not your job.
Micromanaging professionals is not your job.
Appointing and instructing a competent architect is your job
Then you let him advise the design team and you run all instructions to site through him.
Because you're unlikely to be competent enough to assess the implications of design changes for the compliance of the works.

See you at Christmas.

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon                             as a defence or support - in and of itself -        should       legal        action    be      taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in                             Real Life with rights to inspect and issue      reports    on     the         matters    at      hand.


----------



## onq (4 Jun 2010)

Bejaypers Another John!

Someone who has a clue is posting to this board!

Well done for telling it like it is - its great ot see an independent voice saying it.

Thanks, and yes, its very rought out there, with architects fees competing with the "Will we get an AGA instead of an architect?" mentality of some self-builders.

Oh well, roll on the end of the Recession.

ONQ.


----------

