# Senior employee tradesman 20y exp broke €400 item. What is fairest way to deal w it?



## DavyJones (22 Oct 2009)

One of my staff broke a €400 item today, it is destroyed. 

*Problem one*, it came from the UK and will need to be re-ordered. 

*Problem two*, a lot of money was due to be paid on completion of job, this will delay things. Considering this project was due to end tomorrow I am rather annoyed.

I understand accidents happen but this was avoidable. The staff member in question is a senior tradesman with well over 20 years of experience. If he were an apprentice I would not be fuming as much. It was a run of the mill installation.

My question is what is the fairest way of dealing with this? 

Should I make him pay it all, part or none?


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## mathepac (22 Oct 2009)

*Re: Employee Broke expensive item due to carelessness*



DavyJones said:


> ... My question is what is the fairest way of dealing with this? Should I make him pay it all, part or none?


Why don't you carry insurance for these situations?


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## DavyJones (22 Oct 2009)

*Re: Employee Broke expensive item due to carelessness*



mathepac said:


> Why don't you carry insurance for these situations?



Because I have so many insurance polices we can't cover everything. Even when I did have that insurance the excess was quite high. I had it for my business in the UK as it was not uncommon for us to fit baths that were 6 - 10K.

Another reason is breakages are rare, very rare. When you have a highly skilled, well paid work force this is to be expected.


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## Speedwell (22 Oct 2009)

*Re: Employee Broke expensive item due to carelessness*

Unfortunately accidents occur. Has he been careless in the past? Is this one of many? If so yes perhaps you should charge him. However, if this is out of the ordinary for this worker, maybe it is a lesson learned to you and him.


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## Bronte (23 Oct 2009)

*Re: Employee Broke expensive item due to carelessness*

I don't think you should charge him.  You are fuming, understandably so, but you have to get over it.  He didn't do it on purpose, we all make mistakes, we've all broken something by accident, he is an experienced and valuable member of your workforce, you don't want to lose him, he's probably mortified as it is.  Maybe have a chat with him about being more careful.  His nerves might be raw now and that could make him more nervous and lead to more accidents if he is not handled correctly.


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## Mpsox (23 Oct 2009)

*Re: Employee Broke expensive item due to carelessness*

You can't "make him pay for it". You can ask him to pay for it but legally you cannot deduct the cost from his salary without his permission.

Maybe a compromise might be to ask him to work a few extra hours for nothing


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## Fintan (31 Oct 2009)

*Re: Employee Broke expensive item due to carelessness*

Like others said, depends on the employee. If he his a hard working person and this is unusual, he is probably deeply embarrassed and upset. If he is a clown, he probably doesn't care. 

So your reaction can range from quiet word to sacking


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## Complainer (31 Oct 2009)

*Re: Employee Broke expensive item due to carelessness*



DavyJones said:


> One of my staff broke a €400 item today, it is destroyed.
> Problem one, it came from the UK and will need to be re-ordered, Problem two, alot of money was due to be paid on completion of job, this will delay things. Considering this project was due to end tomorrow I am rather annoyed.
> 
> I understand accidents happen but this was avoidable,. The staff member in question is a senior tradesman with well over 20 years of experiance. If he were an apprentice I would not be fuming as much. It was a run of the mill installation.


What does your safety statement/risk assessment/method statement say about the way this task is supposed to be carried out?


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## baldyman27 (31 Oct 2009)

*Re: Employee Broke expensive item due to carelessness*



Complainer said:


> What does your safety statement/risk assessment/method statement say about the way this task is supposed to be carried out?


 
Why does this matter? For all we know it may have been a E400 hammer.


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## ajapale (31 Oct 2009)

*Re: Employee Broke expensive item due to carelessness*

Moved from  Askaboutbusiness to Jobs etc which is  where Employer/Employee Relations, Rights and Responsibilities are discussed on AAM.

aj
Moderator


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## Complainer (31 Oct 2009)

*Re: Senior employee tradesman 20y exp broke €400 item. What is fairest way to deal w*



baldyman27 said:


> Why does this matter? For all we know it may have been a E400 hammer.



I've never heard of a hammer getting destroyed in an accident, but it really doesn't matter what the item in question was. It will help to understand responsibility for the accident if we can see what steps the employer took beforehand to assess the potential risks and mitigate against them.


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## GarBow (31 Oct 2009)

*Re: Senior employee tradesman 20y exp broke €400 item. What is fairest way to deal w*



Complainer said:


> I've never heard of a hammer getting destroyed in an accident, but it really doesn't matter what the item in question was. It will help to understand responsibility for the accident if we can see what steps the employer took beforehand to assess the potential risks and mitigate against them.


 
And if there is no method statement in place? It must be the employers fault? Is this what you're getting at?


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## Complainer (31 Oct 2009)

*Re: Senior employee tradesman 20y exp broke €400 item. What is fairest way to deal w*



GarBow said:


> And if there is no method statement in place? It must be the employers fault? Is this what you're getting at?


Well if the employer hasn't complied with his legal obligation to a risk assessment and prepare a safety statement, he may well be on very dodgy ground if he then tries to blame the employee.


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## GarBow (31 Oct 2009)

*Re: Senior employee tradesman 20y exp broke €400 item. What is fairest way to deal w*

Agreed. Although do you really think this will be in place to cover every eventuallity posible? It would be of far more use to know what actually hapened than whether he was complying with his legal obligations. 

IMO, he should let it go, put it down to experience, whatever. No one was hurt. That would be a different story and actually worth worrying about.


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## Complainer (31 Oct 2009)

*Re: Senior employee tradesman 20y exp broke €400 item. What is fairest way to deal w*



GarBow said:


> Although do you really think this will be in place to cover every eventuallity posible?


No risk assessment will cover every eventuality, but a good risk assessment will cover the things that are likely to happen and likely to cause harm. That's the beauty of risk assessment. 'Harm' doesn't just mean personal injury - if the cost of this item is significant to the business, then the possibility of financial harm should have been considered.


GarBow said:


> It would be of far more use to know what actually hapened than whether he was complying with his legal obligations.


I think we need both sets of answers to be able to advise the OP properly.


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## Purple (31 Oct 2009)

*Re: Senior employee tradesman 20y exp broke €400 item. What is fairest way to deal w*

Does anyone really expect a risk assessment to be done prior to a run of the mill bathroom installation (which is what this seems to have been)?

Davy, if he’s working for you then you are carrying the risk. You can’t charge him for it.


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## Jewel (31 Oct 2009)

*Re: Employee Broke expensive item due to carelessness*



DavyJones said:


> Another reason is breakages are rare, very rare. When you have a highly skilled, well paid work force this is to be expected.


 
You say yourself breakages are very rare. But, people are people, and EVERYONE can mistakes from time to time. 
I'm sure that it was avoidable, but in fairness, isn't EVERY accident avoidable. But, people aren't robots, and they are subject to distractions like personal issues on their mind, or being tired, or not feeling well etc etc, and any one of these issues can cause even very experiences employees to make a really silly and stupid mistake. 

Frustrating for you I'm sure, but short of automating your processes and eliminating people from the process you have to expect that from time to time there will be a silly breakage. So be it. 
Your job is obviously to focus on keeping the breakages to a minimum, but I don't believe you will ever eliminate breakages completely. 

That's just an aside though. In terms of Employment Law, unless you have a policy in place explaining that the cost of any and all breakages will be deducted from employees wages, there isn't a lot you can do about it. 
You absolutely cannot "make him pay for it". That would be completely unfair and totally unreasonable of you as an employer to do such a thing.


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## Odea (1 Nov 2009)

*Re: Senior employee tradesman 20y exp broke €400 item. What is fairest way to deal w*

If he was a tradesman with 20 years experience in your company I would be concerned that you were even considering asking him to pay for the damage.


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## PaddyBloggit (1 Nov 2009)

*Re: Senior employee tradesman 20y exp broke €400 item. What is fairest way to deal w*

Take the loss .... be glad you've got a good treadesman working for you.

We all make mistakes .... forgive him this one.


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## MaryBe (1 Nov 2009)

*Re: Senior employee tradesman 20y exp broke €400 item. What is fairest way to deal w*

Hi Davy,

My husband has an employee that on rare occasions has cost his company money.  Unavoidable instances are absorbed through the company but avoidable instances are discussed and an agreed percentage of the cost is deducted over a time from the employee - with his written concent of course.  I call it situational management or horses for courses.


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## Susanna (1 Nov 2009)

*Re: Senior employee tradesman 20y exp broke €400 item. What is fairest way to deal w*

The fairest way is not to make a big deal over it. Accidents happen, if he broke it in a furious rage the story would be different. He has worked for the company for 20yrs..surely loyalty counts for something.


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## ney001 (2 Nov 2009)

*Re: Senior employee tradesman 20y exp broke €400 item. What is fairest way to deal w*

Good god, I cannot believe that it has come to this........... what does your safety statement/risk assessment statement say????? wtf??.  

Guy broke an item, unfortunate but hardly deliberate, accidents happen on work sites.  I know of two people who have had accidents on building sites and will never work again due to serious life threatening injuries.  Count yourself lucky, order the replacement & advise the guy to be more careful in future.


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## Complainer (2 Nov 2009)

*Re: Senior employee tradesman 20y exp broke €400 item. What is fairest way to deal w*



ney001 said:


> what does your safety statement/risk assessment statement say????? wtf??.
> 
> accidents happen on work sites.  I know of two people who have had accidents on building sites and will never work again due to serious life threatening injuries..


Less accidents happen on those sites that pay serious attention to their safety statement and risk assessment.


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## ney001 (2 Nov 2009)

*Re: Senior employee tradesman 20y exp broke €400 item. What is fairest way to deal w*

well thankfully in this instance there was no injury just a breakage so is it really necessary to consult risk assessment statements??

I would say no - it's not, swallow it, order a new one and get on with the job


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## MrMan (2 Nov 2009)

*Re: Senior employee tradesman 20y exp broke €400 item. What is fairest way to deal w*

On a purley productive note, I would say that if this guy is charged any sum of money it will rankle with him and may affect future productivity.


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## Complainer (2 Nov 2009)

*Re: Senior employee tradesman 20y exp broke €400 item. What is fairest way to deal w*



ney001 said:


> well thankfully in this instance there was no injury just a breakage so is it really necessary to consult risk assessment statements??


Learn from mistakes - It won't fix the last problem, but it might stop the problem from happening again in the future (maybe with worse consequences, i.e. human injury).


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## DavyJones (2 Nov 2009)

*Re: Senior employee tradesman 20y exp broke €400 item. What is fairest way to deal w*

We do have a safety statement, as we are operate within current laws. As said, not everything can be risk assessed, because it isn't partical.

This tradesman hasn't worked for me for 20 years, nearly a year now or so.


When I first posted this I was very annoyed, for two reasons,
the first was his reaction, he tried to explain it was a two man job, it isn't, second and much more important is we were due to get a large final payment on completion of the property. This was delayed.

The very next morning we ordered a new part from the UK, and we had it Thursday morning, it has been fitted, (by another tradesperson).

 To be fair to him, he offered to pay for it, I declined and just asked him to be more careful in future and if he feels a job he is doing needs another body, to bring it to me or a foremans attention.

Thanks for the advice, everyone.


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