# Advice needed re ulster bank "losing" a document



## AnneB77

I took out a tracker mortgage with Ulster bank in August 2005. I fixed my rate in 2006 for a period of two years. When the fixed rate expired I was put onto their variable rate in 2008. From reading of other cases with Ulster bank I was apparently entitled to go back to a tracker mortgage in 2008 as my fixed rate contract in 2006 would have said about being put back to home loan rate which the ombudsman in other cases has said means tracker rate.

I only realised all this in the last few months and unfortunately when I checked my documents I realised that I didn't have the fixed rate contract from 2006. I requested this from Ulster bank on the 16th February. Finally after the last two months of difficulties with the bank and being passed to their complaints department I received a letter today stating that they can't find this document and as an apology they want to give me €350. I am really suspicious of this that they can't find the one document that would show I was entitled to a tracker mortgage. Has anyone any advice for me or has experienced anything like this before. I know I'm outside of the six year time frame for the ombudsman so I'm wondering have I any other options as in taking a legal case myself. If they have no documentation to show that I signed for a fixed rate in 2006 does that make that contract null and void? Thanks


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## PTSBCase

Hi. Your solicitor should have a copy. I would suggest using the €350 to obtain this document from your solicitor.


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## AnneB77

No I don't think solicitors get copies of anything after the initial contract. Thanks anyway


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## GiganticLamb

I wouldn't accept any money from them. 

It looks very suspicious. 

If you pay 3 euro you can request everything the bank has belonging to you, phone calls /letters etc. 

Surely your letter of offer would contain such information. I would request that first. 

My other advise to you would be to contact a person on here who deals with all these situations all the time. He's meant to be very good but I can't remember his username. Maybe another poster can give you his info..


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## Monbretia

Was it definitely a tracker mortgage on the original loan offer in 2005?  If so then ask why you did not go back to tracker after the fixed was up, if UB say you gave up that right when you signed the fixed rate appendix then ask them to prove that by showing you the copy of where it says that.  Definitely don't take the 350.


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## AnneB77

Yeah it was definitely a tracker mortgage which I didn't realise I had until a year ago. Nobody told me back in 2005 what a tracker mortgage meant and that I would lose it  
You see from other posts on here other ulster bank customers are saying that it's the form from 2006 the one going on to the fixed rate is the important one as that's the one that would have said you revert to home loan term. In 2008 when the fixed rate was up I automatically went onto the variable rate as they didn't offer a tracker then. 

Gigantic lamb I can't pay the €3 as ulster bank are saying they can't find this document. Am I being totally too suspicious that a bank in Ireland destroyed documents on people's files in case they asked for trackers back? 

Thank you all for your replies so far as this is very stressful especially when I found out that the ombudsman won't help me


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## emeralds

What was your tracker rate in 2005? We took out one in 2005 and ours is ECB + .9%. We never strayed from it but in June 2008 the ECB hit a high of 4.25%..
So a variable rate in June 2008 may well have seemed an attractive choice (even if you should have been offered a tracker at that


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## Monbretia

Nobody knew in 2005 how valuable it was so  that's just unfortunate that the fact that you weren't told back then what the tracker mortgage meant and that you would lose it, it wouldn't have been a major issue with staff at that time.

I doubt the bank has gone through files which are stored off site in huge facilities looking for one document in each file to destroy it, you have to request back a whole box of files to get to just one, the cost would be enormous.  Too much of a conspiracy theory I think, to be fair one form is fairly easy lose, probably more a case of misfiled than actually lost but that doesn't help you much.  

When you completed the form did you post it back directly to Head Office or give it to a branch?


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## Gerry Canning

I would have thought that a signed contract is of importance to the Bank to retain.I cannot see it being just lost .

For e6.50 you are entitled to request a SAR (Subject Access Request) , what it is is a full copy of things on your account.
It is a lot of work for Ulster but tough!


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## Monbretia

It would be important to the bank to keep it and I doubt they misplaced it intentionally.  Very easy for stuff to be filed wrong, take O'Connor for example, leave out the O or the apostrophe, leave no gap and write as OConnor and they will end up in different places if scanned and filed, if manually filed then human error and our atrocious spelling comes into play.


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## thedaddyman

I doubt very much that there is anything suspicious about them losing the document, I just think it is probably down to gross incompetence. That's not unique for Ulster Bank

Was your mortgage taken out with Ulster Bank or with First Active?, that may have an impact on where things were stored. Remember UB took over FA and everything at the front end migrated to the UB name but I doubt if they moved anything they had in storage in FA at the time.


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## Bronte

AnneB77 said:


> I am really suspicious of this that they can't find the one document that would show I was entitled to a tracker mortgage.
> 
> If they have no documentation to show that I signed for a fixed rate in 2006 does that make that contract null and void?


 
I would be really suspecious too.  It's either deliberate or sheer incompetence and I favour the former.

It would seem to me that you know what you signed for, the bank cannot prove otherwise so you should be entitled to what you say you signed for as the bank cannot prove otherwise.  So them losing the document can be used in your favour.  Go throught the complaints departmetn (so called in Ulster bank) who will not do anything only send you round in circules, get their final response letter and go to the Ulster banks complaints department known as the Ombudsman by Ulster bank and take your chances there. 

From past experience I would use an expert, something I regret not doing.  Try poster on here Padkiss, he has the pulse on this.  Padraic Kissane or find someone local to you.  He's a straight dealer from his posts and newspaper articles and he'll tell you if you have a chance.  It will stack the odds more in your favour.


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## diver

Bronte's right, I also would advise seeking professional help with this. I contacted Padkiss (Padraic Kissane) through this site and got my UB tracker restored and backdated, all sorted within 6 months with no Ombudsman involvement.

In my case, my original tracker loan offer stated "a tracker rate for the lifetime of the mortgage". So, regardless of what fixing I did on the mortgage (I fixed the rate twice), and what the terms stated on the fixed rate offer at each time of fixing, my mortgage always had to revert to a tracker based on what my original loan offer stated.

Seek help from someone with experience here......there's too much at stake to be merely fobbed off.


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## Grizzly

Ulster Bank lost all of my account opening details re money laundering etc. Twice!!!!  I have refused to give them third copies.
I can guarantee you that your solicitor was sent the loan approval letter back when your account was approved. You need to check this out.


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## Bronte

Grizzly, it is highly unlikely the solicitor has the fixed rate document.  Yes they will probably have a copy of the original loan documentation, but when you fix or do other changes, the letter of changes offer comes to the customer only and is not done via a solicitor.


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## Monbretia

Yes there is no second letter of offer, the original goes to the solicitor but none of the subsequent changes like opting for fixed rates.  I agree too that the fact that they can't find it should actually work to your advantage, you have your original tracker offer and they can't prove they changed that entitlement because they have lost the document.


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## AnneB77

Thank you all so much for taking the time to respond to my post. I really appreciate it.
As some of you said you doubt it's suspicious but they were able to provide me with every other document which is what raised my suspicion in the first place. 
Thanks again


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## rodger

I have a similar situation with boi
I had original documents which were carried around and sent to eg ombudsman and then one day I couldn't find them. 

I asked boi to send them out and they sent out 4 but said 2 documents were not retrievable. 

I raised the issue as a complaint to the ombudsman. The ombudsman said they had no role and to raise it with the data protection office. 
The issue has been running now for 6 months. 

As you say it is suspicious. 
Did they give a reason?

In my case they simply said the documents were not retrievable. 

That doesn't say why or give any explanation. 

And by the way I was on tracker before I fixed and then they refused to put me back on tracker.


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## Bronte

rodger said:


> I asked boi to send them out and they sent out 4 but said 2 documents were not retrievable.
> 
> .


 
As far as I know banks no longer keep paperwork beyound a certain date.  For space reasons they also store a lot of them on microfiches (like photo negatives).  No idea why banks seem to have lost so many records though.  Ulster bank insurance lost my original insurance application forms, I often wondered if I'd made a claim would the form miraculously appear to try and use a get out clause on paying up based on some question I'd answered incorrectly.


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## AnneB77

Their answer to me has been that despite extensive searches they have been unable to retrieve the document


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## rodger

My issue currently with data protection commissioner.
Thing is the documents they say they don't have are more recent than other documents.
Also better chance they are originally tracker for that reason.


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## rodger

Guess what data protection commissioner said?


They said if boi can't find the documents then there is nothing they can do !!!

Now there's good use of the taxpayers money!

There's a watchdog with teeth!

If boi can't find the document what can they possibly do!


Ask them why.
Ask then who else's documents are missing
Rap them on the knuckles for losing them
Do something!

They have the original documents but missing some along the way!!!

How convenient.

Who to be annoyed with... The bank or the data protection commissioner.



rodger said:


> My issue currently with data protection commissioner.
> Thing is the documents they say they don't have are more recent than other documents.
> Also better chance they are originally tracker for that reason.


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## auxred

Hello, a similar thing has happened to me.

Like others I fixed in 2006 and was then put on a SVR at the end of the fixed period.

I am now waiting for Ulster Bank to review my case. Hoping to get some news asap.

While waiting I applied for a SAR (Subject Access Request). When this arrived I found one thing missing. The fixed rate paperwork from 2006.

I asked Ulster Bank for this but they say they cant find it.

I am now very concerned that a key document is now missing from my file, one which will decease or destroy my chances of getting a positive outcome from
the review.

Has anyone else had important files conveniently lost by Ulster Bank?

AnneB77 did you get anywhere with them since?


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## RichInSpirit

I took out an U bank tracker through a broker around 2004. I had some dealings with U bank a few years ago and broker helped. I was surprised that he had all documentation from 10 or more years previously.
If anyone used a broker to take out a mortgage, the broker might be a good place to start digging for "lost" documents.


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## SaySomething

Hi @auxred yes I have missing documents from my Ulster Bank file. 
_
*Caveat* I am not a financial professional. I'm an Ulster Bank customer who has some experience on this but you will need to seek legal advice to be absolutely sure this information is correct.
_
What I'd say to you is that your contract is the fall-back point. If your contract says your tracker rate is 'for the life of the mortgage' then that's the most important document on your file. 
Contact the Data Protection Commissioner and make a complaint via her office. It takes time but there will be to & fro between you, her office, and Ulster Bank. You will find more documents appear with her giant spotlight. However this doesn't guarantee that your fixed rate instruction will turn up. 

If Ulster Bank have indeed lost the document then at least it is flagged on the Data Protection Commissioner's radar. Unfortunately Ulster Bank have lost quite a few essential documents from quite a few customers. At best it's crap filing and document management, at worst...well that would be subject to a DPC prosecution. She would only be able to do that if everybody who was missing documents made a complaint directly to her though.

Best of luck.


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## auxred

Thanks guys. I will flag this with the Data Protection Commissioner and see what the outcome is. Best of luck to you guys also.


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## Andy836

Why don't all these Borrowers have their own copies of their loan documents?


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## SaySomething

Andy836 said:


> Why don't all these Borrowers have their own copies of their loan documents?


Andy in my case it's not the loan documents, it's correspondence that I've sent them, and they acknowledged at the time, but yet have no record of. There's a lack of emails sent relating to my file, which normally wouldn't flag concern for most account holders. However in my case I had an FSO case on my file in the past few years and I have a copy of the FSO emails to the bank. That means I have evidence of some of the emails that were sent but only from the FSO end. The bank claim only 1 email was sent in total, which I can prove is not the case. They are also missing phone records relating to complaints.


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## corktim

I did a SAR also with UB and low and behold they can't find important paperwork in relation to my rate options when I came off my fixed... seems to be a pattern here


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## WackoJacko

I made a phonecall to BOI in 2015 regarding my tracker mortgage, i was told over the phone "it was discounted at ECB +.69% for 12 months and then ECB +1.25% for the remainder of the term". I requested this call to be sent out to me at the begining of April this year and was told it would take two weeks. I rang today to look for an update as it's been over two weeks and was told they can't find a call log in relation to the call. Maybe i'm being very cynical but is this not a bit 'convenient' as it proves i'm entitled to a tracker, which BOI are denying as there was no provision for it in my original loan offer!


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## cremeegg

Monbretia said:


> Nobody knew in 2005 how valuable it (a tracker) was



Nonsense.

Since Adam was in short pants the only mortgage product available was a variable rate loan (or a short term fix) which meant that for the duration of the loan the borrower was at the mercy of the bank not to screw up the rate to whatever they liked.

With the introduction of the tracker for the first time ever the borrower had a contract which meant that the interest rate varied in step with an external rate that the lender had no control over.

Any one with the slightest understanding could see that this was hugely valuable.


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## lukas888

I don't consider its nonsense, i feel that a majority of the tracker mortgage holders had no idea of their future value.The banks were issuing trackers like confetti and nobody could envisage the collapse of interest rates 
over the following years.


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## lukas888

I don't consider its nonsense, i feel that a majority of the tracker mortgage holders had no idea of their future value.The banks were issuing trackers like confetti and nobody could envisage the collapse of interest rates 
over the following years.


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## Mauritius

I agree with you Lukas. I think 'nonsense' is a very patronising word to use. The banks didn't cop on to their huge value until mid 2008. They gave me mine in 2006 without batting an eyelid.


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## notabene

@WackoJacko do you know where you rang them from? get an itemised phone bill from the provider - will show the call to the bank.


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## WackoJacko

@notabene I gave them the exact time and date of the call as I wrote everything down at the time. Even the name of the girl i was speaking to. I made the call from work and calls are recorded there so I have someone working on getting the call for me on my end,so fingers crossed. I just find it all a bit suss.


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## notabene

@WackoJacko - i had similar issues as all was done by phone too - you're lucky they record them in work also - hopefully you'll get the recording!


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## WackoJacko

I have the call!!!  The lady states "it was discounted at ECB +.69% for 12months and then ECB +1.30% for the remainder of the term" (on previous post I said 1.25%) I fixed in 2007 so should I have been offerred tracker rate in 2010 when the fixed term was up. Again there being no provision for a tracker in my original loan offer.


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## moneymakeover

So Ulster Bank caught rotten


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## notabene

@wacojako brilliant news well done - wonder could this be used generally to show the type of advice customers were given


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## todo

@wacojako great news, where did you get the recording from, did BOI produce it or did you get if from your work?

I have a similar issue with BOI, where they maintain that I called them, but in fact it was the other way around they had called me, they also dispute the contents of the call.

Would love to know if BOI have recordings, I assume they conveniently can't find the ones that incriminate them.

This should be a very interesting case and it should open up another cohort for BOI in relation to the Tracker examination.

Please do keep posting here on the outcome, as you are probably the only one who has proof that they will lie through there teeth, if needs be.


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## WackoJacko

@todo I got it from work. 

They have to have the recordings as I say it's just convenient that they can't find them. Under the Consumer Protection Code 2012 all calls where people were giving advice/selling had to be recorded. There was fines issued where companys were non compliant. Tho in saying that it really depends when the call was made as I don't think the CB cracked down on it until 2013.

It's funny after I requested the call I turned to my partner and father and said "I bet they will come back and say they can't find the call". Anyhow I have another complaint open with BOI now along side the tracker issue, we'll just wait and see if the 'missing' phonecall turns up on there end.


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## todo

My call was from back in 2008, so may not be covered under that code.

It would be a service worth paying for if mobile operators could allow a person to have all calls recorded, if they wanted.

Would certainly help in a lot of situations.

Please do let us know the outcome of this.


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## Onceagain

Great result, a lot of us on here, waiting for update from Bank of Ireland, do keep us posted. I also requested all my calls, however a lot was missing.


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## auxred

I'm still waiting to hear from Ulster Bank reguarding my missing fixed rate paperwork from 2006.

I have been informed that Ulster Bank moved information from a mortgage system called 'RFS' in 2006 to a new system called 'GMS'. I wonder if this is part of the problem.


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## Gen360

RFS = Real File System
GMS = Gone Missing System


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## Monbretia

RFS was the existing First Active system when UB took over so they moved stuff to the UB system which was GMS eventually, not all of it was done straight away, only new mortgage being issued with full switchover I imagine after amalgamation of both businesses.


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## Gen360

We were always with UB and made lots of phone queries in 2009 re our fixed term finishing and when the tracker would be returned and lot's of complaints early 2010 when the tracker was not returned. One of the banks queries to the Ombudsman was why had we not complained when we did not have the tracker returned in early 2010. Upon receiving the list of phone calls that the bank have on record after DPC request somehow they only have records of calls made long after we gave up complaining. I'd imagine it's just a "Systems Error"


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## notabene

@Gen360 do you have an idea when you made the calls or from where? Ulster said I did not contact also and similarly no recordings available which was annoying as I had made calls specifically thinking I was making a valid recording. However, I rang my provider and got itemised bills, I don't have the content of the call but I can at least show the calls were made despite their intimations that they had not been


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## Gen360

@notabene The calls could have been made from anywhere. I would say next to impossible to find from my end. But I will definitely have a look. It's fairly obvious that anything from the time we said we were making calls is missing as as the records start just after. Is it reasonable for the bank to even suggest that someone who has been complaining about this for the last seven years did not call to complain immediately the tracker rate was not returned? We know what was said in those conversations would not be in the banks interest.


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## WackoJacko

Ok so i got the BOI final response in relation to the call. It states...
"I can confirm following an extensive investigation to locate this call our efforts, thus far, have been unsuccessful in locating this call. I am sorry that we have been unable to locate this call and provide you with a copy of it.
I can advise our introduction on our call scripting confirms;
'To monitor and improve our service and for training and verification purposes calls MAY be recorded' "

So may was underlined and in bold.

What do I do next, do I send the recording to the Central Bank or do I send it to BOI seeing if they will act on it?? Or FSO maybe.


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## notabene

Send to BOI first and see what happens - I would think that the Central Bank and FSO would ask have you provided to them first if you were to approach them


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## todo

It may be worth getting some advice before you let BOI know what they said.

They are pretty good at keeping you in the dark. 

It may be an idea to let them know you have a copy of the call, and ask them based on it confirming your version of events will they reinstate the tracker.

Supposedly they keep a record of all communication with the customer, have they admitting to having anything at all in relation to this call.


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## WackoJacko

@todo They have a footnote (like a brief synopsis of the call notepaded) I have got them to call me out said notepad and it doesn't mention the rate just i was unaware i was on a tracker. 

I'm going to send them the call and see what happens from there. I'll keep you all posted.


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