# Petition to wind up Dunnes Stores



## Brendan Burgess (26 Nov 2012)

This is an extraordinary story as reported in the [broken link removed]

The creditor, Holtglen, has got a judgment for €21m against Dunnes. 
Dunnes has not appealed it.
Dunnes is refusing to pay it. 
NAMA owns the loans to Holtglen
Holtglen has petitioned for a liquidator to be appointed to Dunnes.

Margaret Heffernan is saying that she will hold NAMA responsible for any damage to the reputation of Dunnes.


> In strongly worded letters to Nama chief executive Brendan McDonagh,  Ms Heffernan described ...the winding up petition as "an abuse of process".
> 
> 
> It cannot  be Nama’s belief Dunnes is insolvent and that any petition to wind up  Dunnes on grounds of insolvency is justified, she said.



If they have a judgment, surely there is nothing more to be said. Dunnes must pay it. If they don't, you appoint a liquidator? 



> Mr Justice Peter Kelly agreed to transfer to the Commercial Court  Holtglen's petition. In a situation where Dunnes had not appealed his  Commerical Court judgment last March enforcing an arbitrator's award to  Holtglen against Dunnes, it was difficult to see how Dunnes has a  defence to payment, he said. He was not determining the issues, the  judge stressed.



It's tough enough for ordinary creditors who get judgments who can't get paid, but I would be furious if I had a judgment against Dunnes and couldn't get paid.


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## leroy67 (26 Nov 2012)

If it was  Quinn Stores it would be closed already!!!


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## Time (26 Nov 2012)

I expect Dunnes to settle at the 11th hour. 

They should be hit with a costs order for this charade.


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## mercman (26 Nov 2012)

This is pure madness at its best. No doubt the original deal was made in different economic times, they really should discharge their liability in this case before they do untold damage to themselves. 

The amount in question is a fair whack and needs to be paid before another ICON of Irish business is pushed aside.


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## leroy67 (26 Nov 2012)

Mercman

Irish business ICON's are quickly diminishing


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## mercman (26 Nov 2012)

leroy67 said:


> Irish business ICON's are quickly diminishing



And whether anyone likes them or not, Dunnes Stores are really a part of Irish Life. They commenced trading in Cork many years ago, in times not to dissimilar to what we're in now. Old Ben Dunne got a personal loan and the rest is History. As already stated and in reality the Irish people need Dunnes Stores probably more than Dunnes need the Irish people. 

BTW I have no ties with them whatsoever.


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## kkelliher (27 Nov 2012)

mercman said:


> And whether anyone likes them or not, Dunnes Stores are really a part of Irish Life. They commenced trading in Cork many years ago, in times not to dissimilar to what we're in now. Old Ben Dunne got a personal loan and the rest is History. As already stated and in reality the Irish people need Dunnes Stores probably more than Dunnes need the Irish people.
> 
> BTW I have no ties with them whatsoever.


 

And whether anyone likes it or not you HAVE to pay your bloody bills...... There could be many many Dunnes Stores started in this country if they all go around refusing to pay millions in debts. If that is their attitude I think I for one would happily do without them.


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## mercman (27 Nov 2012)

kkelliher said:


> If that is their attitude I think I for one would happily do without them.



And what about all the companies shutting up shop, some by design and the persons traveling over to the UK to rid their debts. We all know some entity or persons in these categories. Its just that Dunnes aren't publicity friendly in Ireland. On a stand alone basis the owners of the company are probably the most generous givers to Irish Charities. 

They haven't said they're not going to pay. It's just they have fought the matter against a developer that was possibly going bang anyway.


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## kkelliher (27 Nov 2012)

mercman said:


> And what about all the companies shutting up shop, some by design and the persons traveling over to the UK to rid their debts. We all know some entity or persons in these categories. Its just that Dunnes aren't publicity friendly in Ireland. On a stand alone basis the owners of the company are probably the most generous givers to Irish Charities.
> 
> They haven't said they're not going to pay. It's just they have fought the matter against a developer that was possibly going bang anyway.


 
Yes they have said they are not going to pay. This issue has been through an Arbitration process since 2007. Arbitrator sided against Dunnes Stores. Arbitration is binding and without recourse unless refered to the courts on a matter of misconduct by arbitrator. This did not happen. In March 2012, the high court ordered Dunnes to pay the money on foot of the arbitration and they have still failed to do so. In simple terms they have fought the matter and LOST. end of story.

It is irrelevant as to the situation of the developer as his loans were taken over by Nama who are now in charge of the centre therefore NAMA are the developer.

Dont you think that you could be very happy to hand over money to charities and others if you didnt pay a €20 million debt?

I dont see any point of comparing one bad debtor against another? what basis is that to defend non paymnet of this debt which for record effects your own pocket given that the debtor is in fact NAMA ie. the taxpayer.


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## bullworth (27 Nov 2012)

Thanks Big Fella  



mercman said:


> On a stand alone basis the owners of the company are probably the most generous givers to Irish Charities.



proof or links ? All of the companies give something tax deductible when they can get free publicity out of it , don't they ?


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## T McGibney (27 Nov 2012)

bullworth said:


> CJH isnt my idea of a charity
> 
> proof or links ? All of the companies give something tax deductible when they can get free publicity out of it , don't they ?



Tax deductibility is a bit of a red herring for companies that pay only 12.5%. eg They have to spend €1,000 to get €125 in tax relief.


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## Brendan Burgess (27 Nov 2012)

bullworth said:


> Thanks Big Fella



Good one!


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## Brendan Burgess (27 Nov 2012)

As KK points out

The arbitrator made a binding decision - it was not a suggestion.
The High Court granted a judgment - it wasn't a suggestion either. 

Everything else is irrelevant.   If they are not happy with the development, then they sue the developers.  If they want to give money to charity, let them do so, but after paying their lawful debts. 

Brendan


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## Time (27 Nov 2012)

I hope they are stung for all costs.


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## WizardDr (27 Nov 2012)

Well Dunnes obviously feel they have a case. 

You cannot predict the outcome of these cases as the conduct of both sides is taken into account.

Would be a good case to attend with Kelly J - takes no prisoners.


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## Brendan Burgess (27 Nov 2012)

WizardDr said:


> Well Dunnes obviously feel they have a case.
> 
> You cannot predict the outcome of these cases as the conduct of both sides is taken into account.



I am not sure that they think that they have a case. They obviously think that NAMA wouldn't face the public hostility of petitioning for the wind up of Dunnes Stores. 

But NAMA rarely has money owing to it from someone who actually can pay, so they are right legally and morally to go for it. 

If it will be heard by Kelly J, it would be great entertainment, although I suspect that the lawyers are roaring at Margaret Heffernan to pay it.


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## OnDeBanks (27 Nov 2012)

Everyone is assuming that Dunnes can pay.  It is not the only judgement/settlement that they are dodging.  

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0707/crosbie-business.html

http://www.independent.ie/national-...-stores-over-point-village-store-3257837.html

While I'm sure they're making money €21 million is a lot of money to find.  I can't see the banks queuing up to provide the cash.


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## Brendan Burgess (27 Nov 2012)

Hi Banks

Very good point. It is the best possible explanation so far for why they are not paying.

Brendan


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## Lightning (27 Nov 2012)

A very good analysis of Dunnes Stores by Namawinelake  here. There were 80 applications against Dunnes Stores in 2011 and there are about the same this year.


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## kkelliher (27 Nov 2012)

WizardDr said:


> Well Dunnes obviously feel they have a case.
> 
> You cannot predict the outcome of these cases as the conduct of both sides is taken into account.
> 
> Would be a good case to attend with Kelly J - takes no prisoners.



They may well have a case and they have already argued it but they LOST already in arbitration therefore its game over on the payment issue. I would be fairly confident mr kelly will enforce the arbitration award and previous court award as there is no appeal open to dunnes on these issues


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## WizardDr (29 Nov 2012)

@kkelliher - dont disagree - but whats their reasoning do you think ? Wouldn't Kelly J be looking at the number of jobs and maybe he has some flexibility?


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## Time (29 Nov 2012)

He has no flexibility. 

They either pay up by the 14th or they are wound up. No room for sob stories.


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## kkelliher (30 Nov 2012)

WizardDr said:


> @kkelliher - dont disagree - but whats their reasoning do you think ? Wouldn't Kelly J be looking at the number of jobs and maybe he has some flexibility?


 
Like most people who refuse to pay bills, I would feel its an attempt to drag it out indeffinatly in the hope that a settlement might be reached for less. I would feel in this case they did not believe NAMA would act in the way they have by lodging the winding up order. A bit of call their bluff at its simplest.

I dont believe there can be any other reason as having gone through the arbitration process (the result of which has more power than most lower court awards due to its international dimension) they will have already fully exausted their arguements which were clearly not accepted as an arguement for payment.

Always keep in mind as Justice Kelly will be well aware of, we could all employ tens of thousand of people with €20million of someone elses money, it dosnt make it right. If Dunnes do not pay, if they cant pay, they are insolvent and therefore the jobs are gone in any event as clearly the company cannot continue.


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## kkelliher (14 Dec 2012)

This is due in court today so it will be interesting to see where it goes


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## Time (14 Dec 2012)

Thanks for reminding me.


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## Bronte (14 Dec 2012)

kkelliher said:


> Like most people who refuse to pay bills, I would feel its an attempt to drag it out indefinatly in the hope that a settlement might be reached for less. I would feel in this case they did not believe NAMA would act in the way they have by lodging the winding up order. A bit of call their bluff at its simplest.


 
That was my take on this case too.  Heffernan thought she'd be able to do a deal with NAMA.  And as a taxpayer I certainly hope NAMA will not be doing any deal with a company that can well afford pay for what they signed up for.


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## kkelliher (14 Dec 2012)

What a suprise 

(as reported by RTE.ie)

A petition to wind up Dunnes Stores over a €21.6m debt has been withdrawn after the Commercial Court heard that the money was paid in full yesterday.

Brian O'Moore SC for Dunnes Stores said that its earlier reasons for non-payment were genuinely held and no discourtesy to the court was intended.

Mr Justice Peter Kelly said that the earlier refusal to settle the judgement could have been viewed as a challenge to the authority of the court even if it was not intended.
Maurice Collins SC for Holtglen ltd said he was not seeking costs but Mr Justice Kelly said he would have granted them if an order was sought.

The summary judgment, granted last March by Mr Justice Peter Kelly, related to the retail group's alleged failure to settle a debt for building works at a shopping centre in Kilkenny.

Holtglen built a shopping centre in Kilkenny in which Dunnes agreed to be the anchor tenant.

The Ferrybank shopping centre was completed in 2009 but Holtglen later became insolvent and its Bank of Ireland loans were transferred to National Asset Management Ltd (NALM), a company of the National Asset Management Agency.


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## Brendan Burgess (14 Dec 2012)

I presume that the Courts Service don't charge for hearing a case? 

Maybe they should do so? 

Maybe, in exceptional cases, where the judge feels that the case or defence was without merit, the plaintiff or defendant should pay. 

Brendan


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## kkelliher (14 Dec 2012)

Completely agree, I am surprised no application for costs made as whatever about the courts service, they have been chasing payment on this issue for years and I am sure they have expended costs since the original court award at the start of the year. But sure its only the taxpayer footing the bill anyway..........

I am not an accountant but I am also sure the interest Dunnes have earned on such a sum for the period would be substantial?


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## Time (14 Dec 2012)

The courts service do charge to hear cases. It is collected through the various stamping fees for all the various court documents.


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## Bronte (14 Dec 2012)

Commons sense prevails as I thought it would. Good lawyers who drew up that contact with Dunnes. Heffernan must have been fuming at her own lawyers for having no get out clause, no doubt on her instructions. No pity for someone who is so so experienced in this line of business.


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## Time (14 Dec 2012)

It is very odd that Dunnes were not subjected to a costs order.


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## bullworth (14 Dec 2012)

Maybe I don't understand what just happened but can anyone be held legally liable for not protecting the interests of the taxpayer ? How can it be that somebody somewhere working for the taxpayer decided to basically ''gift'' Dunnes the sum amounting to legal costs ? Hence treating that money as their own money to do with as they please and not as ours they hold in trust.

Surely the state should not volunteer to pay the voluntarily chosen expenses of cash rich multimillionaires  ? Can the same judge tear up a few parking tickets for me please ? Jail the lot of them for this humbug (unless I misunderstood something)


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## kkelliher (15 Dec 2012)

It can only be that it was part of a deal that was made to get Dunnes to pay the bill without the case going to a hearing.


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## kkelliher (15 Dec 2012)

According to a report in the irish indo today no award on costs was requested as the parties had already agreed a deal on costs


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