# Management Company Accusations



## redbhoy (7 Jan 2011)

Some time ago the Management Company from the Estate I live in announounced the names and addresses of all the people who hadnt paid their management fees. 

The girl I rent the room from spoke to a solicitor and was told that they were in the wrong doing this.

Yesterday a letter came through from the Management Company explaining about the water shortage and bin collections. They maintain in their letter that the reason the rubbish wasn't collected was because people werent paying their management fees and that some people were leaving bags outside the bin area and that residents should report these people.

Can management companies get away with this type of behaviour?

Trying to turn residents against each other is despicable in my opinion and trying to blame the non-collection of bins on this seems wrong to me also especially considering that the lorries couldnt get into the estate for weeks due to the bad weather and poor conditions in the Estate.

Personally, Id have thought the management company should have been out gritting the roads in the estate seeing as they clamp cars around the Estate for 'irregular' parking.

Are there guidelines for what management companies can do or say in relation to these matters?


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## shesells (7 Jan 2011)

All members of the management company (the owners) are entitled to a list of debtors...which would be people with outstanding fees. Some publish them, some circulate on request, some don't. Ours includes them with our accounts.

If the company doesn't have the funds to pay for basic services then everyone suffers eg bin collections, landscaping etc. If this was my estate and I'd been subsidising non-paying units then I'd certainly want to know! And of course if people are littering by leaving bags outside the bin area they should be reported. 

The MC probably have clampers on a contract, the MC gain nothing by clamping. Regarding gritting, some companies did, some don't. Ours hired a contractor a few months ago to do it but he ran out of grit!

Bottom line is as a tenant you have no rights to any involvement with the management company, your landlord needs to get legal advice...from a solicitor who knows what they are talking about.


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## mf1 (7 Jan 2011)

I don't see what the problem is. 

The big issue is the failure of property owners who are members of the management company not getting involved in resolving ongoing management company issues.

I think the property owners should address their own obligations, responsibilities and liabilities before running off to solicitors to get advice on potential defamation issues!

"Trying to turn residents against each other is despicable in my opinion" - no comprendez.

mf


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## onq (7 Jan 2011)

There are possible issues with data protection and the right to privacy here, but I'm no expert on the law as it applies to either.

If each Member has become contractually bound to pay management fees and signed up to a contract thaat specified this method of advertising late payers, then I think the data protection and privacy issues may not apply, or at least may be legally set aside for the common good.

I don't think this "outing" is particularly draconian and I commend the management company for apparently trying to nip non-payment of fees in the bud.

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The OP may have a grievance against non-collection of waste on health grounds - who wouldn't?

There is an issue of whether or not the debt situation directly caused the non-collection of bins or was it the difficult access within the estate caused by badly parked cars in the snow or the snow itself - again, both issues to be concerned with.

Finally there is the issue of whether the management company is offering good value for money given what its charging and the level of service its providing and its ensuring others are providing - an ongoing monitoring of management company metrics is advisable.

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I'm concerned to see that the OP's apparent first reaction to this  is to berate the management company for carrying out their duties which  include collection of management fees.

Whilst we are in difficult times, its one thing to elect to help your  neighbour financially, quite another to sponge off your neighbours and  expect them to pay for you.

In my recent experience its the people with money in their account who fail to even try to pay their bills.

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So I am worried about the reaction of the landlord:

- why was her first recourse a chat to the solicitor?
- why is the OP posting here about it?
- was she one of the defaulters?

Too many unknowns.

ONQ.

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon                                                     as a defence or    support  -     in     and    of        itself  -         should          legal             action        be           taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in                                                     Real Life with rights    to         inspect     and       issue         reports    on     the                    matters    at           hand.


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## ajapale (7 Jan 2011)

Moved from  Askaboutlaw (which is for discussion of legal issues not covered elsewhere) to  Management Companies etc..

Please post in the correct forum/subforum.


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## shesells (8 Jan 2011)

ONQ you seem to confuse Management Company and Management Agent in your post? A management company doesn't charge? Management agents do? MAs administrate the property, MC is the legal entity which owns all common property, all owners are members.


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## onq (8 Jan 2011)

Are you missing your beauty sleep to advise me on my error?

Well, I'm honoured to stand corrected 

Thanks.

ONQ.


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## Magpie (8 Jan 2011)

If she has paid he fees and doesn't dump rubbish illegally then she has nothing to worry about. Do you think the other owners should suffer and say nothing about it? 
They are legally allowed to give the names of debtors to the other members of the management company.


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## computerman (9 Jan 2011)

Can you name the managing agent?  just curious.


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## ajapale (9 Jan 2011)

computerman said:


> Can you name the managing agent?  just curious.



Please dont.


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## redbhoy (10 Jan 2011)

Shesells, Im just a tenant but Im a curious one. The owner of the apartment was in dispute with the MC as they were collecting a fee but werent doing some of the duties they claimed. The owner was brought to court by the MC and the MC never bothered turning up. She has been dealing with the MC via phone and letters. She went to a solicitor as a last resort and was advised that the MC was wrong to release her personal details.
Basically the owner of property was paying over €1000 to have her bins collected and just before the court date they came around trimming hedges and cutting grass when they hadnt done this for over a year having been called on numerous occasions.


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## Petermack (10 Jan 2011)

The difficulty is that when the MC sets the management fee for the year, this figure is based on everybody who owns a unit paying. If some unit owners do not pay the fee there is going to be a shortfall and something has to give, and this is usually either bins not getting collected or green areas not being maintained. Its a balancing act and in the current financial environment I would not envy the members of any MC trying to justify why management fees need to increase to cover owners of units who cannot afford to pay the management fees.


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## ontour (10 Jan 2011)

Redbhoy,

The problem with the owner of your apartment is that she sees that she pays for a service and is it must be provided.  A lot of apartment owners think the same.  The owner is paying based on projected revenue and projected expenditure, both of which can change.

Most importantly the success of a management company is based on a number of the apartment owners getting involved in decision making and monitoring how money is spent and how money should be spent in the future.  I believe that the owners time may be more productive if they spoke to the other owners rather than a solicitor.


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## shesells (10 Jan 2011)

OP I think you are also confusing Management Company and Management Agent. See the sticky at the top regarding the differences.

The legal advice your landlady got was wrong, all owners (members of management company) are entitled to know who the company's debtors are.


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## markpb (10 Jan 2011)

redbhoy said:


> The owner of the apartment was in dispute with the MC as they were collecting a fee but werent doing some of the duties they claimed.



She wasn't happy with the service provided and stopped paying her service charge. This would be a perfectly understandable way to deal with most companies but your landlord fails to realise that she is *part* of the management company. By not paying her service charge, all she did was guarantee that the management company would be unable to provide her the service she expects.



> The owner was brought to court by the MC and the MC never bothered turning up.



That's really poor form - the MC should definitely have turned up if for no other reason than they would definitely have won a non-payment case.


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## onq (10 Jan 2011)

Can I refer you all to Shesells advice to me in this post above?

Are we talking about a management company, which I understand may have the job of collecting the fees, or the alleged non-performance of the management agent, who I understand gets paid the fees to administrate the development?

ONQ.


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## redbhoy (10 Jan 2011)

Must be the Management Agent so, ONQ.


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## ontour (10 Jan 2011)

Even if is the management agent, the management company is responsible for appointing the management agent and ensuring that they discharge their responsibility.

The notable exception is where it is an incomplete development where it gets very messy.


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## redfedora (10 Jan 2011)

I spoke to the data protection office about publishing the names of defaulting shareholders in the past they told me it was in breach of teh data protection act as its personal information. 

When i then asked is it then unlawful for any company to list its creditors a debtors to shareholders or was it just specific to management companies and i was told that they would no longer communicate on teh matter and that they had made their position clear and if a company was reported for doing it that this is the view they would take.

Personally i don't see why its ok to publish who a company owes money to and what they owe and its not ok to do teh opposite. afetr all are the shareholders not entitled to know the full financial picture of the company. 

the banks and government have lost thousads of records over recent years on stolen/misplaced laptops and they get a slap on the wrist and a small fine so maybe it might be worth the risk. Also i think any shareholder can view the accounts at any time so why not make that time convenient for everyone like say at AGM

I'm curious as to why a tennat would be interested in a company listing debtors because it's not like that tenant is going to be on it. the only concern a tennant should have is that the agreed serives as listed in the lease between the tenant and the landlord are in place. the Management company has no contract with the tenant after all. so the only concern a tennant should have is the bins are collected, lifts work, place clean and tidy, car park working etc and if not then its up to the landlord to sort that out for the tenant not the company. the financial position of the company should be no concern to a tenant in my view


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## redbhoy (10 Jan 2011)

In the initial post you'll see that the management company issued a letter blaming the non-collection of bins on non-payments of fees. The bin area was like rubbish mountain, very unhygenic although the snow was a welcome deterrant to flies and smell.
The bin-men couldnt access the area due to the snow and ice but they did wheel down two extra wheelie bins to throw rubbish into but this was far from adequate.
It seemed to me that the Management Company/Agent was using this as an excuse to flag the non-payment of fees by disgruntled property owners. I thought this was a little underhanded.

(You're right that it has nothing to do with me but could you imagine a world where people didnt care about what went on around them?? )


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## Bronte (10 Jan 2011)

redbhoy said:


> the management company issued a letter blaming the non-collection of bins on non-payments of fees. The bin area was like rubbish mountain, very unhygenic although the snow was a welcome deterrant to flies and smell.
> The bin-men couldnt access the area due to the snow and ice but they did wheel down two extra wheelie bins to throw rubbish into but this was far from adequate.
> 
> 
> (You're right that it has nothing to do with me but could you imagine a world where people didnt care about what went on around them?? )


 
Well it's quite clear in your estate that there are a lot of people that don't care about what goes on around them.  Those that don't pay the fees, those that left out rubbish where there were no bins and the people in the estate that didn't get out their shovels and dig a way for the binmen to get access to the bins.


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## redfedora (10 Jan 2011)

redbhoy said:


> In the initial post you'll see that the management company issued a letter blaming the non-collection of bins on non-payments of fees.


 
was that addressed to you by name, the landlord by name or "the owner"? 



redbhoy said:


> It seemed to me that the Management Company/Agent was using this as an excuse to flag the non-payment of fees by disgruntled property owners. I thought this was a little underhanded.


 
or they just don't have the money, you have to realise that out of the fee comes things like block insurance (probably top priority) lift mainteance if required, the health and safety like fire equipment and fire alarms etc then waste, landscaping, internal common area cleaning, agent fees, window cleaning, gutter cleaning, building maintenance, the list is endless depending on the type of development. 

so maybe near the end of the financial year they didn't have a pot to p in and every cent was gone. I'm a director of a managemnt company and it takes something like 50 - 60K a month to run the place without paying long time creditors, our budget is over 500K (100K sink fund) a year and less than half shareholders pay any fee never mind small amounts and they they all think that 200K will cover 450Ks worth of expenses. those maths just dont add up at soome point services must be cut



redbhoy said:


> You're right that it has nothing to do with me but could you imagine a world where people didnt care about what went on around them??


 

there's nothing wrong with being concerned about waste not being collected, grass not cut and other stuff you'd expect as a tenant. I'm curious that you've managed to get access to company financial material ie the current financial position and why a landlord or agent discussed it with you. 

to be honest if i was a tenant i'd only be concerned that what i was entitled to was done and i'd hassle my landlord to get it done. bins not collected? couldnt care less as a tenant about the MC, i'd just tell my landlord " i pay my rent in full and on time, i expect my bins gone" if he comes back with guff about the MC i'd tell him thats his problem that i pay my rent on time and want my bins collected, let him deal with teh MC


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## redbhoy (10 Jan 2011)

Bronte said:


> Well it's quite clear in your estate that there are a lot of people that don't care about what goes on around them. Those that don't pay the fees, those that left out rubbish where there were no bins and the people in the estate that didn't get out their shovels and dig a way for the binmen to get access to the bins.


 
The estate is designed so that no-one gives a rats about what goes on around them. Theres a good distance between the bins and the main road for people to be out clearing snow.


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## redbhoy (10 Jan 2011)

Redfedora,

People that paid their fees were leaving the rubbish outside the bin area. Im only a tenant but I do have ears and overheard the stuff to do with the management companies AGM. I didnt hear specific details. 

(By initial post, I meant the first post on the top of this thread not actual letter post)

RB


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## shesells (10 Jan 2011)

redfedora said:


> I spoke to the data protection office about publishing the names of defaulting shareholders in the past they told me it was in breach of teh data protection act as its personal information.
> 
> When i then asked is it then unlawful for any company to list its creditors a debtors to shareholders or was it just specific to management companies and i was told that they would no longer communicate on teh matter and that they had made their position clear and if a company was reported for doing it that this is the view they would take.



The whole problem with management company law prior to the MUD was that it didn't exist. All companies are treated the same at the mo.

A company is entitled to list the units that are not paying. Any member of the MC is entitled to a list of names of other members of the MC. Putting two and two together isn't difficult.


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## redfedora (11 Jan 2011)

shesells said:


> A company is entitled to list the units that are not paying. Any member of the MC is entitled to a list of names of other members of the MC. Putting two and two together isn't difficult.


 
that's what i thought but but their account information ie outstanding balance is to my undersdtanding private and so cant be shared. if you list balance and address though the name isnt listed the address is personally identifiable info and so it would be a breach of the DPA. like wise if you used a tennant ref and listed that with the amount then that ref is again personally identifiable info. its a no win situation. 


its a little strange to be honest. I mean if i was a shareholder in say ANother company then i'd more than likely be allowed to know what was owed to the company and by who so in theory the same rules should apply to shareholders an any company. I tink the DPA just got swamped by complaints by people that refused to pay and were named and shamed at AGMs and they decided point blank that any similiar behavior would be a breach to make life easier on them. yet if somene gets a judgement against them they can be published in the stubbs, but to me that's a public document and would breach data protection but according to teh DPA its not actually a breach, something to do with the fact there is judgement where as a list supplied or displayed at AGM to shareholders is an internal company communication. 

I guess you could alwas weigh up the likelihood of someone reporting you and the possible fine with the effect listing them would have ie increasing cashflow and embarrasing people into paying.

most of the hardline defaulters know that in general the company doesn't have extra cash to waste on lawyers and legal fees and even if it went to court they cry poverty and chances are are allowed to drip pay over years. 

@ redbhoy ah overhearing that makes sense didn't hear of that. I know how scummy owners can be about bins its the same in my place they just throw crap everywhere i had one just lump stuff like broken kitched swing lid bns, parts of furniture and bedding off a balchony to the grass area leave it all there for hours and them put it all on the floor of the bin shed even though the bins are not for that type of waste. we've had TVs, Microwaves, office chairs, ironing boards and god knows what else thrown into green recycle bins for god sake


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## markpb (11 Jan 2011)

redfedora said:


> its a little strange to be honest. I mean if i was a shareholder in say ANother company then i'd more than likely be allowed to know what was owed to the company and by who so in theory the same rules should apply to shareholders an any company. I tink the DPA just got swamped by complaints by people that refused to pay and were named and shamed at AGMs and they decided point blank that any similiar behavior would be a breach to make life easier on them.



There's always the possibility that the DPC are wrong in this case. They're not allowed make up rules or exceptions or change the rules, they're allowed to enforce the law through the courts. They might believe that publishing delinquent unit numbers is a breach of the DPA, ODCE believe otherwise and until it goes to a court of record, there is no right or wrong answer, just peoples opinions.


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## redfedora (12 Jan 2011)

markpb said:


> There's always the possibility that the DPC are wrong in this case. .


 
Personally i believe they are wrong and are covering their collective asses. 

I mean how can it be wrong for a company to circulate such info in what would be considered an internal company notification and yet if someone has a judgement against them for debt in court it published in a public circulation ie the stubbs. it baffles me. 

One thing we're considering is having a debtors list availible at AGM that can't be removed from the room but can be viewed by all people present on the night.


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## Yorrick (12 Jan 2011)

(You're right that it has nothing to do with me but could you imagine a world where people didnt care about what went on around them?? )

You mean a world where people mind their own business


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