# NPPR ends 1/1/'14 replaced by LPT implications for relatively cheap multi units?



## Brendan Burgess (5 Dec 2012)

replaced by  property tax


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## oldnick (5 Dec 2012)

This is great news for thousands of investors who have smaller cheap properties - whether apartments anywhere in ireland or small houses in small country towns.

It means that they will all save money -me included.

This year i paid 200 NPPR & 100 pc on each of a few apts = €300 EACH.

From 1 Jan 13 I wont pay NPPR and will only pay .18% property charge -average charge under 200 euros.
for those with apts worth ,say, 50k it means a total charge of €100 in 2014 cf €300 this year.


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## PaddyBloggit (5 Dec 2012)

Brendan Burgess said:


> replaced by  property tax




..... but there will be a lapover for the final 6 months of 2013.


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## ronaldo (5 Dec 2012)

This is good for me too. My house is valued in the <€100,000 band.

Had the changes in the budget not come into affect, my annual charge would be:

€100 Household Charge + €200 NPPR Charge = €300

As it stands, my charge will be:

2013: €45 Property Tax + €200 NPPR Charge = €245
Later Years: €90 Property Tax = €90

The local authorities will have the option to increase the €90 by up to 15% from 2015 - giving a maximum charge of €103.50.


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## Annie51 (5 Dec 2012)

I would not trust the government not to bring in a higher % rate  of property tax for investment propertys...


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## Protocol (6 Dec 2012)

oldnick said:


> This year i paid 200 NPPR & 100 pc on each of a few apts = €300 EACH.
> 
> From 1 Jan 13 I wont pay NPPR and will only pay .18% property charge -average charge under 200 euros.
> for those with apts worth ,say, 50k it means a total charge of €100 in 2014 cf €300 this year.


 

Careful - NPPR abolished on 1st Jan 2014.

So, during 2013, you ow the NPPR and the half-year LPT.


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## willalex (6 Dec 2012)

I think it is very mean spirited to not remove the NPPR tax in 2013 like they did with the household Charge.

Could it be considered unethical to basically have a double property tax on Rental property ?  

ps I know the household charge applied  as well as the NPPR to rental properties in 2012, but the household charge was charged as an "water charge service type cost".


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## Bronte (7 Dec 2012)

oldnick said:


> This is great news for thousands of investors who have smaller cheap properties
> 
> It means that they will all save money -me included.


 
It's going to cost me a lot less too because I have a house divided into apartments so now I'll pay per property and not per unit.  Happy days.  

How is everyone going to value their properties, based on the new property index I presume?


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## Meath Lady (8 Dec 2012)

Do you think it will be just one tax per property when divided into apartments.? I'm sure the government will have another plan. Happy days if it is just one tax per property.


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## oldnick (9 Dec 2012)

I always assumed that each apartment  was and is a seperate property for both NPPR and property/household charges.

For the property charge it makes no difference if it's for the whole property (i.e. building) or for each individual apartment.   Whether you value the building at ,say, 300k or three apts at 100k each surely the charge is the same as everything is based on .18% of value.


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## Meath Lady (9 Dec 2012)

But if a house is divided into apartments?bedsits you cannot sell one off individually. Just wondering as made that error the first year with NPPR and it cost me dearly at 20 euro a month for 2 extra bedsits for a year along with the original charge.


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## oldnick (9 Dec 2012)

you raise an interesting point that I've just understood !

I think Meathlady you are asking ,for example...

House worth 200k  - charge* 315* euros (from 2014)

This house is divided into ,say, five tiny bedsit-type units. But you must still pay 90 per unit as all values under 100k are charged  at €90. Total =*450* euros.

So, should you pay 300 or 450 euros ?

The NPPR specifically stated bedsits. Does anyone know what the new local property charge will calculate for non-self contained units i.e. bedsits?  

(P.S.Are bedsits still allowed?)


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## Luternau (9 Dec 2012)

oldnick said:


> I also think that NPPR are rates and should be tax deductible.



I would agree. However, based on general info about this, and posts here, I don't include it as a deductable expense. However, if people are deducting it, and have been audited by Revenue, what have Revenue done about this deduction? If they did nothing, that would back up what some say has been contradictions on the treatment of this by them. If the majority are not deducting it, why would they make an issue of it. Lots of clarity required on this one by Revenue!


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## Meath Lady (9 Dec 2012)

Think bedsits still allowed once they have their own self contained bathroom and heating system. However in my case my house is divided into three units rather than bedsits. Each unit accommodates three people, but the three units make up the entire house. With the previous household charge and nppr I had to pay per unit,so wondering what this plan will be.


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## oldnick (10 Dec 2012)

Still not clear from your description. Is each unit self-contained with the tenants not sharing any common facility,like a kicthen?  If each unit is an apartment with its own kitchen and bathroom then you pay property charge per apartment. Full stop.

If the tenants share any facilties (i.e. a common kitchen) then its basically one property for property charge purposes. 

I'd love an expert to post on this.


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## Bronte (10 Dec 2012)

I have a property divided into 2 apartments, no sharing of anything other than the hallway once you go in the front door.  I paid per unit, so 2 charges.  But now my understanding is that I will pay based on the property value.  Each apartment could not be sold separately.  It's not like owning 2 or 3 apartments in a building of say 50 apartments where each one has it's own legal title.


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## Bronte (10 Dec 2012)

Meath Lady said:


> Think bedsits still allowed once they have their own self contained bathroom and heating system.


 
I cannot figure out if you have bedsits or not but I do know that the are no longer allowed or maybe that's from next year but they are definitely being disallowed.


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## elcato (10 Dec 2012)

> Think bedsits still allowed once they have their own self contained bathroom and heating system.


Known in the business as a Studio apartment


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## Bronte (10 Dec 2012)

elcato said:


> Known in the business as a Studio apartment


 
And what about cooking facilities?


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## elcato (10 Dec 2012)

> And what about cooking facilities?


Fair point. I had the cooker down as a given.


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## Meath Lady (10 Dec 2012)

I have exactly what you described above. Three units each with own facilities inside one front door with one shared garden and one legal title, so can only be sold as one house.


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## oldnick (11 Dec 2012)

Having one legal title at the present moment should not make it impossible to sell off one of the units. There are countless buildings in Dublin, many dating from the nineteeth century that were formerly large posh houses, that previously had one legal title and over the years have been divided into apartments (or offices).

These buildings often have gardens, and they all have "shared" halls, corridors and stairwells. The deeds of each apartment usually refer to common useage of such shared facilities and the liability of the owners for the upkeep of gardens, roofs, halls, corridors,stairs etc.

I own a building in the heart of Dublin that is divided into a few apartments and a shop. It has,at present, one legal title. Does that mean I should submit one value for the whole building ,rather than for each seperate apartment?

I still suspect that the authorities expect each self-contained unit to be regarded as a seperate property for the purpose of this wretched tax.


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## Bronte (11 Dec 2012)

oldnick said:


> I still suspect that the authorities expect each self-contained unit to be regarded as a seperate property for the purpose of this wretched tax.


 
Even if they did you'd still only value it as a full property.  Take a house subdivided into 2.  It's worth 200K so now you just value each unit at 100K each.  So it makes no difference.  Legally they are not 2 units I think because there is only one legal title.


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## oldnick (11 Dec 2012)

This is an interesting question for many owners of houses (of whatever size), divided into apartments - but especially so where the total charges on all of  the apartments in that house  may be far more than the charge on,say, the same house next door.

This would be the case in many smaller cities. For example in Dundalk I've a small apt in a large house valued at ca. 40k but I'll still pay full charge. 
Nearby there are houses valued at 100-200k split into several such tiny apartments. 
For the owners of those houses I agree it would be well worth paying the charge based on the one single house, regardless as to whether it's split into  apts.

For dearer areas such as Dublin it makes little difference - usually each apt would be worth ca. 100k upwards,  and the total value of the house would be worth the same as  multiplying the charges on each apt.


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## Meath Lady (13 Apr 2013)

I wonder has anyone any update on this. 

What are people doing with the many Georgian Houses let in multiple units as regards the LPT?

I have as previously described one house with one front door one garden one water connection ( at the moment) but three flats contained within. Each flat has its own kitchen/bathroom/ esb so virtually self contained. I paid the household charge per unit/ flat as I did the NPPR. The property was bought as one house and I feel would have to be sold as one house. 

I still have failed to find anything on the Revenue website addressing these issues which must affect hundreds of properties in larger cities but especially Dublin. 

Yesterday I received 3 LPTs for these as this is how I paid NPPR.

 The Revenue Commissioners advises that I need to write to them to request it to be considered as 1 house. 

I would feel only one LPT should be paid. 

This may not be the cheapest way to do it but I feel this is the correct way. 

Any thoughts or any one in a similar situation anything to offer. 

Thanks


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## Meath Lady (15 Apr 2013)

Any other opinions on this matter please.


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## Bronte (16 Apr 2013)

Meath Lady said:


> Any other opinions on this matter please.


 
The NPPR and household charge were very specific that the charge was per unit not per property. The new property tax doesn't mention this. 

But I think I'll drop an email to revenue. Maybe Mandelbrot has an opinion if he's around. He's always a genius on this kind of thing.

Since I posted last December (post 24)on this I didn't realise at the time that even if you valued each unit to make up one price that you would lose out because there is a minimum cost to the tax.


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## Meath Lady (16 Apr 2013)

I have emailed LPT but they have failed to reply so far. However if I value each unit at band 1, which I feel would be suitable I will pay ( 90 x 3= 270 euro) annually. However the valuation for the whole house would probably fall into band 5 or 6 ie ( 495 euro or 585 euro).
The main point is the units cannot be sold individually as they are really make up just one house with one front door,one roof, and  one garden.


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