# Bishop Of Kerry speaks out



## Joe Nonety (7 Apr 2004)

He said people who don't attend mass regularly shouldn't be allowed use the church for their weddings. He's completely right. I know loads of hyprocrites who only go to mass a couple of times a year, but then for some reason when it comes to the wedding they want to include a church mass as part of the nuptials. There's such a waiting period for churches now it'd really lighten the load if only regualr church goers were allowed use the church while the rest were sent to registry offices.


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## <A HREF=http://pub145.ezboard.com/baskaboutmoney.s (7 Apr 2004)

As an atheist I'm inclined to agree with this although I can appreciate the counter arguments such as (a) it's hardly Christian to exclude people no matter how causual or a la carte their religious beliefs may be and (b) the children of lapsed or part time practitioners should be entitled to inclusion in the religious environment of their parents/extended family. The hypocritic token exploitation of religious institutions for the marking of certain lifetime events does annoy me but then I'm not part of the club so it's really no business of mine.


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## Rev (7 Apr 2004)

He should apply the same rules to funerals. There's nothing worse than sitting through a long funeral mass when the poor sod in the box mightn't have the slightest bit of appreciation.


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## nogser (7 Apr 2004)

This story was covered on the Lunchtime news on Newstalk 106.  If the parents are not practising Chatolics then an active catholic is required to sponsor their children for the sacraments of baptism, first communion and confirmation.  They will marry people but unless you are active there will be no mass as part of the ceromony.  There will be no change of policy in regards to funerals.

I think this is a good thing.

Nogser


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## MissRibena (7 Apr 2004)

*Funerals are a bit different though*

As an atheist none of it matters much to me.  I don't believe in making a fuss about my atheism so I go to weddings, funerals, communions etc. rather than upset my friends and relations although I certainly wouldn't play a role and wouldn't want any of these ceremonies for myself.  However, I can understand that if I keeled over tomorrow my parents/loved ones, as practising Catholics, might wish to have the full Church works.  And if that's what they want, then that's fine by me because I won't know anything about it anyway.  In the end, I reckon the funeral is more about the people left behind than the person in the coffin.

Rebecca


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## Gar123 (7 Apr 2004)

im sorry to have to mention this but the Church has always been one of the greatest capitalist money making machines of all time!

if people who do not regularly attend mass cannot marry in a church they cannot pay the church fees

i believe these are running at something like 500-700€ per wedding, therefore with the average chruch having 3 weddings a day at the weekends this is a loss of €2100 to them every saturday! 

now what owould the bishop say to that?


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## delaneyd159 (7 Apr 2004)

Just to give you a perspective on this one.  I will be getting married (hopefully) in well over a year.  I am not a church goer (probably only 5-10 times a year) and am not too fussy about getting married in a religious ceremony (I'm Catholic by the way).

However, I know for a fact my family and especially my partners family would love to celebrate this momentous family occasion in the house of god. Religion plays a very significant part in their lives and even though this is my partners and my day, we do realise the broader "joining of families" and creation of our "individual family unit".  While I do not see religion as a significant part in my life I do respect it and know I would encourage any child I may have to attend church and give him/her the option of having it in their lives.

Maybe I'm coming across as a hypocrite - but thats my side of the story, just for a little balance!


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## rainyday (7 Apr 2004)

*Re: Funerals are a bit different though*

In principle, he is dead right.

My only concern (and this is a hot topic at home right now) is that if we don't get our daughter baptised, this will seriously restrict the choice of schools open to her in a few years time.


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## <A HREF=http://pub145.ezboard.com/baskaboutmoney.s (7 Apr 2004)

*Re: Funerals are a bit different though*



> Maybe I'm coming across as a hypocrite - but thats my side of the story, just for a little balance!



I would say that you are but then again I'm just very opinionated to feel free to ignore me...    I think that, in the case of marriage, the couple need to suit themselves first and foremost. After that you try to accommodate others. However in my experience many people who simply don't have the courage of their own convictions to stand up for what they believe in (or don't believe in in this context) and ritualistically partake in religious ceremonies (involving holy sacraments in the eyes of believers remember) which they don't believe in in order to mark certain lifetime events/milestones and to keep others (usually family) happy are simply being hypocritical. While I obviously attend religious ceremonies (weddings, christenings, funerals) for family, friends and acquaintances I too would never actively participate in them (e.g. attend communion or play any other active role) as I feel that it would be an insult to those who do believe and a betrayal of my own (non) beliefs. In fact my brother got into a big snot with me for refusing to act as godfather to his child on the basis that it would be hypocritical due to (a) my atheism and (b) his lack of active participation in the church. That was fun! :\ 



> My only concern (and this is a hot topic at home right now) is that if we don't get our daughter baptised, this will seriously restrict the choice of schools open to her in a few years time.



Surely not! Is this true!?!


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## XXXAnother PersonXXX (7 Apr 2004)

*?*

I've paid my dues (money) to the Catholic church over the years, like many other people.

Could it not be classed as discrimination if they allow some people to marry in (the catholic people's) church, but not others? Is some people's money better than others?

How much tax does this business pay anyway?


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## legend99 (7 Apr 2004)

*..*

Don't every parish church have to give an amount per head to every pupil in the local primary schools?

If he is going to enforce the no go no show on people, he should stand up and really be counted and refuse to fund the local schools as well as its really none of the churches business......
I mean that from the point of view that it should be the stupid bloody government to do it.


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## lazyboy02 (7 Apr 2004)

*atheism*

I'm slightly confused by atheism. Is it a practice of non-believing or is it actually a personal distaste for all things religious.

Do atheists just decide that they are atheists or do they go away and study all available religious literature and decide that its all a load of mierde del toro.

I'm fascinated by it all to be honest. I'm beginning to believe atheism is a cop out. my friends tell me they're all atheists, but when questioned why exactly, they all shy away with non-answers.


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## Marz (7 Apr 2004)

*..*

Where do atheists get buried in Ireland?  Is there an atheists graveyard somewhere?  Or do atheists mostly get cremated?


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## ttraces (7 Apr 2004)

*Roll call*

Clock in to mass every sunday? i always though everyone was welcome in the house of God.


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## <A HREF=http://pub145.ezboard.com/baskaboutmoney.s (7 Apr 2004)

*Re: atheism*



> I'm slightly confused by atheism. Is it a practice of non-believing or is it actually a personal distaste for all things religious.



Well - I personally simply don't have (the?) faith (i.e. I don't believe in a God or other higher spiritual being or creator...) so I am an atheist although I was raised a Catholic. I recognise the importance of religion to humans throughout the ages, and am very interested in the study of the historical and social impact of different religions as well as the relevant "holy" books (e.g. I'm reading the New Testament these days as it happens - a bit ironic since that's more than many Christians do in my experience!  )  but ultimately view it as institutionalised superstition. I don't have any fundamental(ist) distate for religions or the basic theology of many religions (much of which, the mytical bits aside, I would not disagree with) whatever about the practice in SOME cases. I respect other people's right to freely practice and express their religion without shoving it down my throat and would try to do the same with my (non) beliefs. I honestly believe that one's personality and character (e.g. honesty, trustworthiness, lack of hypocricy etc.) is more important that one's belief system although, I guess, one informs the other.


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## daltonr (7 Apr 2004)

*Re: ..*

The Bishop is absolutely right in what he says.
There's a sentance I never thought I'd write.   
Apparently his spokesman has come out and said they are not imposing a ban, so not sure if anything will change.



> My only concern (and this is a hot topic at home right now) is that if we don't get our daughter baptised, this will seriously restrict the choice of schools open to her in a few years time.



There's serious pressure in this country to have kids baptised.  Whether it's for school reasons (which is outragious, but we've had that discussion already), or for family reasons.

I'd like to think I'd hold out against it, but who knows when the time comes.  I'm amazed that Catholics have no problem with me getting up on an their alter and lying, but if I refused to get up and lie it'd be a scandal.

A Bishop speaking up like this is to be welcomed, hopefully it'll do some good.

Rainyday, best of luck in your decision.  It's a tricky one.  But the only way things are going to change is if enough people are brave enough to make the touch decision.

-Rd


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## Natchessmen (7 Apr 2004)

*Re: Bishop of Kerry..*

So one of Eamon Casey's successors is calling people hypocrites...hmmm


BTW does anyone else see a parallel between this and the use of Croker for nasty British sports? It's their building and they can leave whomever they want use it.


Nat


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## <A HREF=http://pub145.ezboard.com/baskaboutmoney.s (7 Apr 2004)

*Re: Bishop of Kerry..*



> BTW does anyone else see a parallel between this and the use of Croker for nasty British sports? It's their building and they can leave whomever they want use it.



State aid aside, I would tend to agree with that even though I am a supporter of the domestic football (soccer if you must   ) league who has no time for the GAA or Gaelic football or atavistic nationalist tendancies.


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## Joe Nonety (7 Apr 2004)

*Re: ..*

A friend of mine claimed to be atheist until I reminded him that he had been baptised which made him a member of the Catholic Church and as he hadn't been excommunicated or left the Catholic Church by an other means, it meant he was still a Catholic, which displeased him immensely!
Although in fairness to him he has removed himself from the Catholic Church in the mean time so he's trying to take his atheism seriously.

He still celebrates Christmas so he's obviously not a complete atheist though.


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## <A HREF=http://pub145.ezboard.com/baskaboutmoney.s (7 Apr 2004)

*Re: ..*



> He still celebrates Christmas so he's obviously not a complete atheist though.



Years ago I worked for a company who had Winter Solstice rather than a Christmas parties. Mind you the company was owned and run by Scientologists rather than atheists. I attended the Scientologist funeral of the main man a couple of years ago which was a little unusual. Maybe if I didn't associate with such weirdos I would still be a nice Catholic boy? Or at the very least a compliantly hypocritical one? :lol


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## MissRibena (7 Apr 2004)

*Re: ..*

To answer lazyboy;

My atheism is pretty much along the lines of 0's.  I'm a live and let live atheist with respect for all religions (and anything else that helps you through the crap times in life).  I don't force my strong opinions about religion on others and I don't expect theirs to be forced on me.   I do take it quite seriously and don't believe I am coping out - sometimes it'd be easier to shut up and go along with it.  I'm not married but I don't think there's any way I'd be persuaded to walk up the aisle of a church for anyone's mother, including my own.  As for the school and baptism situation, I don't know how this would impact on me - the schools near me take all sorts of religions (country schools).    I don't envy rainyday the dillemma though.

I don't think I ever really "believed" in God, except as a small kid in a Santa Claus kind of way.  At around 15 I bought lots of books to investigate other religions (I was brought up Catholic), but while they all had merits, I just don't believe in God, be it Christian or Muslim or anything else.  The only way I could possibly get my head around it would be by to take all the Church teachings (Bible etc) metaphorically and cut the rituals but that's too much like an a la cart approach and I do believe that you are either part of something or you're not.   Some of the Eastern ones like Bhudism, Hinduism and Taoism were appealing because they appeared to be more about a way of life but you still have to take a leap of faith.  In a way, studying philosophy has brought me far more consolation and peace than Catholicism ever did, eventhough it doesn't give any answers.

As for the cemetary question; that's an interesting one.  As I said earlier, I couldn't care less where I'm buried (or cremated) personally; when I'm gone I'm gone.  Have to say cremation does appeal more but only because of an irrational concern about being buried alive (one too many late night horror film!!).

Rebecca


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## nogser (7 Apr 2004)

*Re: ..*

Lazyboy02



> Atheism:  Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods.



Those of us who don't know are just agnostics.

Delaneyd

If your partner is church going then you would have no problem in kerry.  If not you could still get married acording to what was on the news.  There would be a blessing but no Mass as part of the ceremony.

Rainyday

Why not contact the local schools and see what there requirments actually are.  Many schools now have only a nominal input from the local parish who orignally sponsored them.  I hope that you stick to your beliefs.

Rd

I too hope that people will assert their beliefs and act acccordingly.  I think that it might actually take more courage to stand up and say that you are a practising Catholic who supports the church than to shake off the rituals of the church.

I agree with 0's logic on religion but I don't belive it can't be proven one way or the other so I remain an agnostic.  I support the churchs right to exist and to have its rules.

Nogser


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## MissRibena (7 Apr 2004)

*Re: ..*

Hi JoeNonety

An atheist is defined (by the Cambridge Dictionaries Online) as "someone who believes that God or gods do not exist".  It doesn't matter if a religion is still claiming you as a member, it's what you believe that counts.

I personally wouldn't go to the hassle of having myself excommunicated because then my parents wouldn't be able to bury as they'd want to, if anything happened.

Do I not remember my mother telling me of a long list of criteria you had to meet on an annual basis to be considered a proper practising Catholic?  There were certains masses you had to attend and a certain number of confessions.  The Church has probably ditched that definition now but I'll check it with her tonight. One thing you'd have to say for rote learning - my mother can still remember all her catechism verbatim.

Rebecca


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## XXXAnother PersonXXX (7 Apr 2004)

*.*

atheist - someone the disbelieves that there is a God. a-theist (not a theist)


Here's superb site that deals with loads of different religions:

www.religioustolerance.org/


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## delaneyd159 (7 Apr 2004)

*Re: Funerals are a bit different though*

0

I'd never ignore someone who believes in what they are saying.  However, I would disagree with your staunch desire to almost offend religion and it's practices.  

I see your brothers perspective on the Godfather issue.  I would see that as more than just a ceremonial or religious responsibility.  It's a way of saying - of all my family and friends I want you to watch my kids back if I'm not around!  I know thats probably a bit of an exaggeration - but the catholic church caters for that sort of family and support structure to be nurtured in todays society.  

Your desire to stand by your "non-beliefs" has me a bit confused.  I can see how a Muslim or Hindu may not wish to attend or take part in a Catholic mass - because they have a full set of their own beliefs.  However, you seem to pin so much of your values on a void.  I would have thought atheists have a take it or leave it attitude when it comes to any religion "I don't care really - it's not like there's a God" sort of attitude!  Not an attitude of respect for people with strong faith and a lack of respect for people who have no faith, but still use the Church!


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## <A HREF=http://pub145.ezboard.com/baskaboutmoney.s (7 Apr 2004)

*Re: ..*



> One thing you'd have to say for rote learning - my mother can still remember all her catechism verbatim.



We learnt the cathecism Q&As but not the 10 commandments in school. Go figure... :\


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## daltonr (7 Apr 2004)

*Re: ..*

The Atheist Agnostic distinction is important.  Neither believe in god.  The Atheists actually "Believe" that there is no god.  The agnostics just don't know.

I'd like to be Agnostic.  More in keeping with the Open mind philosophy.  But I can't help what I believe, so I'm an Athiest.

Never been excomunicated,  don't mind if they do it, but I don't have enough regard for the Catholic Church to actually seek it out.

The fact that I'm on the members list for a club that my parents enroled me in has no bearing on whether I believe in god or not.

I would never try to convince anyone to leave the church.  But I'm happy to explain where I stand to anyone who cares.

-Rd


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## lazyboy02 (7 Apr 2004)

*religion*

atheists, thank you. i just have trouble when it comes to thinking that there is no-one out there, guiding it all along. I don't go to mass, so i'm not a good catholic rather a more sectarian one when Celtic are on the box. however i would have faith and like the "Ask the Audience" question in Millionaire, I'd always go with the percentage vote. just to be sure if you know what i mean.

the morals i live by would be as per atheists models, however apparently they were given in stone to Moses and because i have faith in the old stories, it makes me different to atheists. 

So if two people, one atheist and one believer are judged on their life, how can you favour one over the other just because of a simple word such as belief. 

thats of course if we are judged at all.

its all so "what if" with me.


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## rainyday (7 Apr 2004)

*Re: Funerals are a bit different though*



> Why not contact the local schools and see what there requirments actually are.


I've tried this with partial success. The local COfI school confirmed their 'priority' list as;

COfI & Other Protestant Religions
Siblings of current pupils;
All others (including RC's, other religion, no religion)

Interestingly enough, they did call back to query the N/A that I entered on the registration form for religion.

I still haven't got round to chasing the RC schools, though it is fairly clear from their brochures that they have a Catholic ethos. To be honest, I'm concerned that even by asking the question, I may be bringing on future discrimination.


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## <A HREF=http://pub145.ezboard.com/baskaboutmoney.s (7 Apr 2004)

*Re: ..*



> I'd never ignore someone who believes in what they are saying. However, I would disagree with your staunch desire to almost offend religion and it's practices.



I don't see how I offended anybody. I do believe that I would offend more people by participating in a religious ceremony (sacrament to those who believe) just for the ritual. See below for more on this.



> I see your brothers perspective on the Godfather issue. I would see that as more than just a ceremonial or religious responsibility. It's a way of saying - of all my family and friends I want you to watch my kids back if I'm not around! I know thats probably a bit of an exaggeration - but the catholic church caters for that sort of family and support structure to be nurtured in todays society.



I'm not sure how you can second guess my brother's intentions but surely if he wanted that from me he could have asked me. What he did want is somebody to partitipate in a sham religious ceremony. My siblings initially thought that I was being unreasonable but understood and appreciated my point when I explained it to them. Coincidentally he approached me about this on the day of my (civil) wedding which was particularly ironic. Oddly enough the "not wanting to offend the parents" issue comes into this in a perverse way - I always refused to play any active role in family religious ceremonies on the basis that I would be offending my parents' beliefs in THEIR religion by doing so in a hypocritical or sham way. It's akin to daltonr's point above about going to the altar to lie but being berated from not doing so and being honest although my family, while not necessarily agreeing with my beliefs, do acknowledge my right to them. If they didn't then it wouldn't be my problem and wouldn't bother me unduly.



> Your desire to stand by your "non-beliefs" has me a bit confused. I can see how a Muslim or Hindu may not wish to attend or take part in a Catholic mass - because they have a full set of their own beliefs. However, you seem to pin so much of your values on a void.



Just because I don't believe in or would refute the existence of a God, Gods or afterlife doesn't mean that my belief system is void. Have you ever heard of humanism for example?



> I would have thought atheists have a take it or leave it attitude when it comes to any religion "I don't care really - it's not like there's a God" sort of attitude! Not an attitude of respect for people with strong faith and a lack of respect for people who have no faith, but still use the Church!



You are misunderstanding my beliefs so. It is not a matter of take it or leave it as you would understand from what I and others have already posted.


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## daltonr (7 Apr 2004)

*Re: ..*

You're a Theist.  

-Rd


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## XXXAnother PersonXXX (7 Apr 2004)

*!*

I believe that a God exists. After all, there's a 67% percent chance that I'm right!

education.guardian.co.uk/higher/sciences/story/0,12243,1164894,00.html


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## <A HREF=http://pub145.ezboard.com/baskaboutmoney.s (7 Apr 2004)

*Re: ..*



> i just have trouble when it comes to thinking that there is no-one out there, guiding it all along.



Actually I find this the most empowering thing about being an atheist. The fact that we are in control of our own lives and destinies and not being guided along by some external being or force. Even Christians believe in free will as far as I know although I'm not sure how this fits in with divine intervention and miracles...


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## Joe Nonety (7 Apr 2004)

*Re: ..*

As atheism is not believing in God(s), that obviously means all ye "atheists" don't celebrate *Christ*mas so?
I guess ye're saved all the hassle of buying Christmas presents, writing Christmas cards, putting up Christmas decorations, although ye must surely miss eating Christmas dinner?


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## MissRibena (7 Apr 2004)

*Re: ..*

Delaney

I'm with 0 100% on the godfather thing.  Being a godparent is about looking after the _spiritual_ well-being of the child in the event that the parents can't.  It's nothing to do with looking after the child fully after death.  My sister has four children and is a practising Catholic and has deliberately not asked me to be godmother because it would make a mockery of the whole thing and is hardly a great example for the kids (Aunty Becky stands up and tells a pack of lies at their first encounter with the Church!).  I think my sister is completelyright and I wouldn't do it anyway.  

What's wrong with your believes being pinned on a void (your termlinology, not mine)?  Why does that mean you have enter into other's hollow rituals?  Why would you not be afforded respect for acting by your beliefs, regardless of what they are?  Who are you to make a value judgement on what an atheist believes - you can't prove a theist is right either.

Rebecca


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## piggy (7 Apr 2004)

*Re: ..*

Thanks Rd...maybe I should start my own religion!!


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## <A HREF=http://pub145.ezboard.com/baskaboutmoney.s (7 Apr 2004)

*Re: ..*



> As atheism is not believing in God(s), that obviously means all ye "atheists" don't celebrate Christmas so?
> I guess ye're saved all the hassle of buying Christmas presents, writing Christmas cards, putting up Christmas decorations, although ye must surely miss eating Christmas dinner?



If you think Christmas trees, decorations and turkey are Christian artifacts then I think you really need a spell in Sunday School studying Theology 101! :lol


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## daltonr (7 Apr 2004)

*Re: ..*



> i just have trouble when it comes to thinking that there is no-one out there, guiding it all along.



There's a serious amount of baggage for believers to explain.

* Why do bad things happen to good people.
* Natural disasters.
* Man-Made disasters.
* Genocide.
* Death of infants.
* Aids, Cancer, etc, etc.

The list goes on.

If you believe in God, it's pretty much impossible to explain what kind of god would inflict these things, and harder still to explain why such a god should be worshipped.

But if you're an athiest the reason why bad things happen is obvious.  Because things happen all the time and some of the will be bad.   You accept it, and you get on with your life.

You do good because it's the right thing to do, not to collect Superclub points for admission to the afterlife.

-Rd


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## MissRibena (7 Apr 2004)

*Re: ..*

JoeNonety
I actually make a point of going away most Christmasses and don't participate very much.  Obviously very little of the rituals carried on at Christmas are Christian; plenty (at best) pagan and more dreamt up by Coca Cola.  Funnily enough you still see most Christians taking part anyway.   I buy presents for my nieces and nephews because they are still too young to understand my point of view.  To be honest, I would imagine that I make a less mockery of Christ by doing what I do than most ofl my semi-practising friends who spend it in a drunken stupor spending hand over fist on junk and too hungover to go to most of the ceremonies - but that is their affair and I definitely meet them for a few bevvies!  

Rebecca


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## <A HREF=http://pub145.ezboard.com/baskaboutmoney.s (7 Apr 2004)

*Re: ..*



> But if you're an athiest the reason why bad things happen is obvious. Because things happen all the time and some of the will be bad. You accept it, and you get on with your life.



The Very Reverend Daltonr of the Church of This post will be deleted if not edited to remove bad language Happens! :lol 



> You do good because it's the right thing to do, not to collect Superclub points for admission to the afterlife.



I never realised how apposite my post from earlier today would be!


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## daltonr (7 Apr 2004)

*Re: ..*

I'm intrigued that a significant proportion of the regular posters are Atheists.

AAM - Atheists Anonymous Meeting.

-Rd


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## <A HREF=http://pub145.ezboard.com/baskaboutmoney.s (7 Apr 2004)

*Re: ..*

Perhaps just the mouthy ones?


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## nogser (7 Apr 2004)

*Re: ..*

Rainyday

If you have to join one of the clubs why not join the COI one and guarentee your entry into their local school?

Is anyone out there an active practioner of one of the major religions?

as an agnostic I do the godfather thing in good conscience.  If necessary I'll support the child in their religion and help them progress and explain what it's about.  (I might have to do some reading up beforehand thought)

Nogser


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## delaneyd159 (7 Apr 2004)

*Re: ..*

0

I am not second guessing your brothers intentions I stated I saw where we was coming from by applying my motives in a similar situation.  I didn't expect that he was of the same opinion as myself.  

I have never heard of humanism - I'd be fascinated to get a run down if you would like to mail me (I don't want to bore other people on the post).

Also, I fully understand your beliefs and the beliefs of other atheist, I'm admitting that I was ignorant to your perspectives before now.  I must admit I have a greater admiration now that I realise there is a real purpose and opinion behind your choices and not just "a take or leave it" attitude that I was wrong to assume existed!

I look forward to hearing from you on the humanism stuff!


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## Joe Nonety (7 Apr 2004)

*Re: ..*

The Christmas tree has dozens of different tales about its origins from Martin Luther walking in the woods near his home in Latvia to St. Boniface using the shape of a fir tree to explain the trinity. (There mustn't have been any shamrocks around him I guess).

Turkey is used as a celebratory food, so by eating it on December 25th, its obviously being used to celebrate teh birth of This post will be deleted if not edited immediately.

As for the decorations, it depends on which ones. Mistletoe is pagan while big plastic Santys are obviously Christian.

While the present giving is mainly rooted with Saint Nicholas.

It doesn't make much difference, seeing that as all the customs are rooted in either Christian or Pagan Gods and Atheists don't believe in any Gods it'd be quite hypocritical for an atheist is partake in any of this traditions, so I presume you don't?

Its the kids of Atheists I feel sorry for as obviously Santy wouldn't exist in an Atheist's house.


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## nogser (7 Apr 2004)

*Re: ..*

See here for your friendly Irish humanists website.

Nogser


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## <A HREF=http://pub145.ezboard.com/baskaboutmoney.s (7 Apr 2004)

*Re: ..*



> I have never heard of humanism - I'd be fascinated to get a run down if you would like to mail me (I don't want to bore other people on the post).



Just type "Humanism" into Google and I'm sure that you'll get more information than you can shake a crozier at. Here's a start:
[broken link removed]




> Also, I fully understand your beliefs and the beliefs of other atheist, I'm admitting that I was ignorant to your perspectives before now. I must admit I have a greater admiration now that I realise there is a real purpose and opinion behind your choices and not just "a take or leave it" attitude that I was wrong to assume existed!



Fair enough.


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## delaneyd159 (7 Apr 2004)

*Re: ..*

Hi MissR
I thought when I read the first sentence you were 100% with me - I feel let down that I mis-interpreted!

I can see where you are coming from, your honest stance and your respect for the spiritual perspective of the Godparent is commendable.  I on the other hand would have virtually no respect for the spiritual side of it.    

I feel really alone now - the church people don't like me because I don't believe in God enough - and the atheists seem to disagree with me even more because I believe in God too much.  

Whats a generation X'r to do!!!!!


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## <A HREF=http://pub145.ezboard.com/baskaboutmoney.s (7 Apr 2004)

*Re: ..*



> Its the kids of Atheists I feel sorry for as obviously Santy wouldn't exist in an Atheist's house.



It's the kids of Christians that I feel sorry for - all that talk of Satan, hell, purgatory, limbo, eternal damnation, suffering, spirits, sin, atonement, penance etc. :lol


----------



## <A HREF=http://pub145.ezboard.com/baskaboutmoney.s (8 Apr 2004)

*Re: ..*



> and the atheists seem to disagree with me even more because I believe in God too much.



Not me. I just don't like hypocricy.


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## Joe Nonety (8 Apr 2004)

*Re: ..*

Its the kids of atheists I feel sorry for...

"No, Uncle Jimmy is wrong, Mommy isn't in heaven with Grandma and Grandpa, she's buried under the ground where she's slowly rotting away."

or

"No, all thats left of mommy is the dust in this vase"


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## <A HREF=http://pub145.ezboard.com/baskaboutmoney.s (8 Apr 2004)

*Re: ..*

Actually, us atheists don't bury our dead we eat them. :rolleyes


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## piggy (8 Apr 2004)

*Re: ..*

*"There's a serious amount of baggage for believers to explain.

* Why do bad things happen to good people.
* Natural disasters.
* Man-Made disasters.
* Genocide.
* Death of infants.
* Aids, Cancer, etc, etc.

The list goes on."*

This depends on your view of God/dog though doesn't it? If you believe in a nanny state god   then the above is difficult to explain.
If on the other hand you believe in a creator who doesn't intervene then it's not so difficult to understand I think.


----------



## piggy (8 Apr 2004)

*Re: ..*

So what are you then if you do believe in a creator but have no belief in any organised religion?

Am I a nothing?


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## Joe Nonety (8 Apr 2004)

*Re: ..*

Ye obviously don't eat Sole!


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## XXXAnother PersonXXX (8 Apr 2004)

*.*



> There's a serious amount of baggage for believers to explain.
> ...List snipped...



Life would be boring without those horrible things you mention. Those things are all part of life. We were given life, warts and all. They also provide a contrast so we can appreciate the good things in life. 

In the grand scheme of things, they don't really matter anyway - tip for none-believers; study astronomy and when you're on the Eagle Nubula, you might have some appreciation as to how negliable cancer and even genocide is.




> If you believe in God, it's pretty much impossible to explain what kind of god would inflict these things, and harder still to explain why such a god should be worshipped.



See above. When God gave us life, He didn't give us 'life lite'.




> But if you're an athiest the reason why bad things happen is obvious. Because things happen all the time and some of the will be bad. You accept it, and you get on with your life.



I don't understand how this differs for thiests.



> You do good because it's the right thing to do, not to collect Superclub points for admission to the afterlife.



When This post will be deleted if not edited immediately died, He guaranteed a place in heaven for everyone. Superclub points or going to church is not required.


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## <A HREF=http://pub145.ezboard.com/baskaboutmoney.s (8 Apr 2004)

*Re: ..*



> Ye obviously don't eat Sole!



Actually given that transubstantiation of the bread and wine into the body and blood of This post will be deleted if not edited immediately Christ (literally) is a fundamental tenet of Catholic belief perhaps you might like to join me for a nice repast of Aunty May's liver, some fava beans and a nice bottle of Chianti some evening soon... :evil


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## XXXAnother PersonXXX (8 Apr 2004)

*?*

transubstantiation  - I simply don't understand this. It is really meant to physically be blood of This post will be deleted if not edited immediately?

Can't people see that it isn't?


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## <A HREF=http://pub145.ezboard.com/baskaboutmoney.s (8 Apr 2004)

*Re: ?*

Well that's what they say:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transubstantiation


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## elderdog (8 Apr 2004)

*offish topic Question*

If women priests had been allowed would the Church ( i.e. R.C. church ) have ever got into the situation it finds itself in now ?

eDog


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## Alex (8 Apr 2004)

*Re*

I think Joe Nonety has hit on the only use I can see for clinging to some sort of Christian religion.  I'm a very lapsed Catholic (though we had the kids baptised so that they could go to the local school) and I really think that there is no life after death.  BUT, whenever my kids ask me (as kids do) 'what happens if you/I/granny/whoever dies?', you have to give an answer along the lines of 'we all go to heaven and we'll be together again someday'.  It's hugely comforting to a child even if it a bare-faced lie.  What would the atheists who've posted here tell their children?

And to whoever expressed surprise that a lot of regular posters are atheists, I think that's just a reflection of society now.  I don't think any of my friends or similar age relatives still go along with the full Catholic thing.  If the schools weren't controlled by the religious, there'd be a lot fewer 'Catholics' left.


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## MissRibena (8 Apr 2004)

*Re: Re*

Alex

I don't have kids so I'm not 100% sure what I would tell them.  But I don't think of it much differently.  When you die, you return to the soil and become a different part of the world (basically fertilizer), which allows something else to come from the earth again.   The circle of life does exist, just not with angels and fluffy clouds and pearly gates. You see to me, most religions' explanations of life after death are actually saying just that; "ashes to ashes", re-incarnation etc. etc.  I don't believe you have to dress it up so much for kids.  I think that kids pick up on the fear of adults hold in relation to their own mortality.  To me, it's not that bad.  

Rebecca


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## OpusnBill (8 Apr 2004)

*That's it...*

Hi Alex,

________________________________________________
BUT, whenever my kids ask me (as kids do) 'what happens if you/I/granny/whoever dies?', you have to give an answer along the lines of 'we all go to heaven and we'll be together again someday'. It's hugely comforting to a child even if it a bare-faced lie. What would the atheists who've posted here tell their children?
________________________________________________

A tough question....not that I have kids, but if I did I would try and answer honestly and say that the person is gone, but if you keep remembering them, they'll never completely go away, which I have to say gives me some comfort whenever I think of somebody I've lost.

As for the whole Heaven and God issue, well I think I'm a little bit of an agnostic but veering towards atheism.

Personnally, I have enough trouble trying to deal with the fact that I'm living here now ;-)  After all I'm a collection of about a trillion cells and utlimately I'm one of the products of 15 billion years of cosmic evolution starting off with the simple hydrogen atom!

Wow!!

If you wanted to know more on this slant - check out the brilliant series "Cosmos" by Carl Sagan.

Cheers,

OpusnBill


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## piggy (8 Apr 2004)

*Re: Re*

I've never taken much of an interest in religion...which is probably why I didn't know I was a theist  
I've always known what I've believed though...or at least I've known it for a long time. Institutionalised religion for me has always been about trying to make sense of who we are and what God is, but somehow always manages to get very, very lost along the way. I think it's unfair to say "The circle of life does exist, just not with angels and fluffy clouds and pearly gates" because no believer really believes that Heavan is up in the clouds and Saint Peter is standing there waiting to test you :\  That's something that Christians tell their children so that they can form some sort of understanding of the afterlife. Anyone who has children or young children in their family knows that during times of loss it's difficult for them to comprehend death. If you believe in an afterlife (as I do) then you can't tell children that the afterlife is something which you can't fathom. That means nothing to a child!


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## lazyboy02 (8 Apr 2004)

*transubstantiation*

on Holy Thursday for believers, the last supper occured where bread and wine were shared by This post will be deleted if not edited immediately to his disciples. There was no actual changing into his blood and body, more the two were symbols of what the two would mean. As in when This post will be deleted if not edited immediately said "Do this in memory of me".  

of course its not blood, but christian faith follows the guidelines of the last supper by using bread and wine and re-enacting what effectively was the first mass.

of course an atheist isn't going to believe in that, but christians would and do, not just catholics.


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## daltonr (8 Apr 2004)

*Re: Re*



> Its the kids of Atheists I feel sorry for as obviously Santy wouldn't exist in an Atheist's house.



Why not?  Christmas is primarily a Commercial holiday these days.  If I chose to treat it entirely as such then that's my perogative. If you chose to have a religious dimension to it fair play to you.



> If on the other hand you believe in a creator who doesn't intervene then it's not so difficult to understand I think.



So why do organised religions devote so much effort to praying for his/her/their intervention?



> What would the atheists who've posted here tell their children?



That nobody knows what happens when you die.  Then I'd list the half dozen or so theories, including the one where you get to be Casper, and I'd tell them to take their pick.

If they insisted on knowing what I thought, and it was a young kid I might use the Santa Clause school of parenting and paint a pretty picture until they were old enough to know what I really thought.  Young kids should not have to think about their Mortality.

OK, this is rapidly becoming a thread on DOES GOD EXIST, so I'll bow out here, because we can't answer that and I have no inclination to get into a MY BELIEF IS BETTER THAN YOURS kind of debate.

Fair play to the Bishop, but I don't see anything changing.

-Rd


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## MissRibena (8 Apr 2004)

*Re: Re*

On the transubstation thing ...

Was it not one of the reasons for the Reformation?  Protestants believe the wine and bread are symbolic and Catholics believe they are _actually_ the body and blood of Christ.

Rebecca


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## piggy (8 Apr 2004)

*Re: Re*

*Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If on the other hand you believe in a creator who doesn't intervene then it's not so difficult to understand I think. 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



So why do organised religions devote so much effort to praying for his/her/their intervention?*

Hi Rd...that's a good question. I don't know. Like I said, most catholics I know believe in the kind of God I described above. It's always been an argument against God (why do bad things happen etc...) but it doesn't hold a lot of water with me. But who knows what people pray for? I think prayer is probably a very personal thing. I don't pray...never have. If I did though I'd be asking for a big fat ferrari


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## Sean (8 Apr 2004)

*.*

QUOTE:"Was it not one of the reasons for the Reformation?"

One reason was because bishops were selling documents to rich people which "guaranteed" them a seat in heaven.


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## Joe Nonety (8 Apr 2004)

*Re: .*



> Why not? Christmas is primarily a Commercial holiday these days. If I chose to treat it entirely as such then that's my perogative. If you chose to have a religious dimension to it fair play to you.


I know Christmas is based on Christianinty, Paganism and Commercialism, but I was specifically talking about "Santy" there. Surely there would be no mention or imagery of Saint Nicholas in an atheists house? And not having the excitement and build up of Santy in someone's childhood is something I feel a child is really missing out on.


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## <A HREF=http://pub145.ezboard.com/baskaboutmoney.s (8 Apr 2004)

*Re: .*



> of course its not blood, but christian faith follows the guidelines of the last supper by using bread and wine and re-enacting what effectively was the first mass.
> 
> of course an atheist isn't going to believe in that, but christians would and do, not just catholics.



Wrong. Catholics believe in transubstantiation of the bread and wine literally into the body and blood of Christ. Protestants see it as simply symbolic. Each views the other's Sacrament of the Eucharist as a sham. These days they try, to some extent, to gloss over fundamental differences on theology and practice using ecumenism but every so often the schisms are laid bare:

[broken link removed]
[broken link removed]

On another tangent... I really can't understand ecumenism to be honest. Different religions have either fundamentally or subtly different beliefs and practices but ultimately believe that they are right so trying to make it look like they're all part of one big happy religious family smacks of hypocricy to me. I would have more respect for them if they stood up for what they believed in and left it at that even if I didn't necessarily see eye to eye with them on the specific matter in hand. This case of the Bishop of Kerry or even the McAleese communion row above would be an example of them having the courage of their convictions/beliefs to call a spade a spade from their point of view in my opinion.



> BUT, whenever my kids ask me (as kids do) 'what happens if you/I/granny/whoever dies?', you have to give an answer along the lines of 'we all go to heaven and we'll be together again someday'. It's hugely comforting to a child even if it a bare-faced lie. What would the atheists who've posted here tell their children?



I personally would focus on the fact that the dead person lives on in our memory and also insofar as how their influence and teaching informs our own thoughts and actions, particularly in relation to good traits and habits etc. I feel that this is a more actively positive view than telling them that the loved one has magically gone "up to heaven" or whatever.



> And to whoever expressed surprise that a lot of regular posters are atheists, I think that's just a reflection of society now. I don't think any of my friends or similar age relatives still go along with the full Catholic thing. If the schools weren't controlled by the religious, there'd be a lot fewer 'Catholics' left.



The use of the quotes above is pertinent. I have a lot of respect for anybody who studies and thinks about religion and spirituality and either gets to the root of their faith or else decides that they have none. Those who do religion by default, who generally don't even understand the basic tenets of the faith that they purport to follow but who still manage to preach at others I have no time for. If incidents like this (the Bishop of Kerry's comments) stimulate some frank and open debate and encourage people to examine and understand their own beliefs then I believe that is a positive thing. However I reckon that a more common reaction, from Catholics and non Catholics alike, might be "who the hell does he think he is to have the cheek to tell US what we can and can't do...". :\


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## daltonr (8 Apr 2004)

*Re: .*



> Surely there would be no mention or imagery of Saint Nicholas in an atheists house?



You think a fat guy with a white beard a red costume flying reindeer, and a bag full of toys is imagery of Saint Nicholas?

Since you're not an atheist and don't seem to understand what being an atheist means (see your earlier comments on excumunication), let me put your mind at rest.  

Atheists, give presents, receive presents, and celebrate all aspects of Christmas except the religious aspects.  In that respect they are not unlike many Catholics.

Some atheists also eat Easter Eggs.  Not for any religious significance, but because they like chocolate.  In that respect they are not unlike many Catholics.

And as Bill Hicks pointed out:

"I've read the bible, I can't find any mention of Chocolate Eggs or Bunny Rabbits anywhere".

Joe,  I'm not trying to convince you that Atheism is the way to go,  but if you have any other misconceptions I'd be happy to set you straight.

-Rd


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## Sean (8 Apr 2004)

*.*

QUOTE:"Wrong. Catholics believe in transubstantiation of the bread and wine literally into the body and blood of Christ. Protestants see it as simply symbolic."

For what it's worth I remember our Catholic R.E. teachers' opinion on this.  He said the bread and wine was actually transformed into the body and blood of Christ.  Though if you brought it to a lab and tested it it would still be bread & wine...

Hope I've helped clear that matter up...!


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## Marion (8 Apr 2004)

If as a Catholic you don't believe in transubstantiation and in the immaculate conception, then can you really be a Catholic?

I suspect many Catholics should really be protestants if they are not atheists.

I personally don't believe in either of the above.

Marion :hat


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## piggy (8 Apr 2004)

*"If as a Catholic you don't believe in transubstantiation and in the immaculate conception, then can you really be a Catholic?"*

Doesn't the catholic church preach against the use of condoms? So if you use them can you not call yourself a catholic?

I have to say there's a lot of philosophising going on here about Catholicism and very little common sense. Ireland is a predominantly Catholic country...so people were born into the faith. If they choose to go to mass and believe in This post will be deleted if not edited immediately then that's fine in my book. It doesn't mean they should switch religions because they don't believe that they're actually chewing on the body parts of our lord :\


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## Marion (8 Apr 2004)

But piggy you are missing the point. *These are 2 of the major differences* between the Catholic and Protestant religions.

Nobody is suggesting that people should change their religion. 

Marion :hat


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## <A HREF=http://pub145.ezboard.com/baskaboutmoney.s (8 Apr 2004)

> I have to say there's a lot of philosophising going on here about Catholicism and very little common sense. Ireland is a predominantly Catholic country...so people were born into the faith. If they choose to go to mass and believe in This post will be deleted if not edited immediately then that's fine in my book. It doesn't mean they should switch religions because they don't believe that they're actually chewing on the body parts of our lord



Perish the thought that anybody should philosophise about religion! :\     Anyway, the topic was started with a query about the Bishop of Kerry's comments about Catholic practice so it's not surprising that the discussion has focused on Catholicism to a large extent (although probably not as much as atheism). I personally don't care what people do as long as it doesn't impinge on the property or person of others. However I certainly don't have much respect for those who purport to follow any religion or other belief system by default (e.g. just because they were born into it, to keep the parents happy, for the children etc.), when they don't even understand the basic underlying tenets and/or are too ignorant or lazy to learn about, understand and adhere to them - a common enough occurrence in Ireland, and probably elsewhere, in my view.


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## XXXAnother PersonXXX (8 Apr 2004)

*.*

It would be interesting to stand up in front of a Catholic congregation and ask them if they believe that the host is now the flesh of Christ. (after the priest has done all the stuff)

What is holy water? What is a blessing? I'm also firmly convinced when This post will be deleted if not edited immediately said 'do this in memory of me' - He probably didn't mean it quite so literally. Maybe He meant for us to live our lives like He lived His life. Did This post will be deleted if not edited immediately ever make holy water?


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## piggy (8 Apr 2004)

*"If as a Catholic you don't believe in transubstantiation and in the immaculate conception, then can you really be a Catholic?"*

You asked the above Marion. I was merely pointing out that it's not simply a matter of choosing all the time. Most catholics imo *would* believe in the immaculate conception but not in transubstantiation .

*"These are 2 of the major differences between the Catholic and Protestant religions."*

Yes...I understand that. But you say that some catholics should be protestants...I was pointing out that the catholic church preaches many things, including that the use of condoms is a sin. So should those catholics who don't use condoms actually be something else?

Church and religion is about more than just belief for a lot of Irish people...it's also about community and a sense of belonging.


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## Joe Nonety (8 Apr 2004)

*Re: .*



> You think a fat guy with a white beard a red costume flying reindeer, and a bag full of toys is imagery of Saint Nicholas?



In a word yes, the beard is from the traditional image of St. Nicholas (although also possibly the Magi). The bag full of toys comes from the legend of St. Nicholas being a friend of children. While others are of mixed origin including Clement Moore's poem.
You obviously disagree, so where did you think the origin of Santy with a beard and toys came from if it has nothing to do with Saint Nick?
Next thing you'll be telling me the Christmas crib and the shamrock on St. Paddy's Day have no Christian origins either. LOL!


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## <A HREF=http://pub145.ezboard.com/baskaboutmoney.s (8 Apr 2004)

*Re: .*



> Church and religion is about more than just belief for a lot of Irish people...it's also about community and a sense of belonging.



Unfortuantely it has also been about division and exclusion for many as history teaches us. Just look at Joe and his challenging of atheists' belief in Santy for example! :lol


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## Ted (8 Apr 2004)

*.*

"so where did you think the origin of Santy with a beard and toys came"

I thought it was from a Coca Cola advert, hence the red & white outfit.


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## daltonr (8 Apr 2004)

I've yet to meet a Catholic who when quetioned on what they "Really" believed didn't turn out to be either a protestant or a superstitious agnostic.

Getting back to the Bishops statement.  I can't understand why lapsed catholics would want to baptise their child into the Catholic Church.

Catholicism is the only religion they've tried and they feel it didn't do it for them, so why would that be the one that they'd put their child into.  If you want to bring your child up in a religion why not look around and find one you like?  And if there's none that you are willing to practice, why is it so important to get your child into one?

Of course if it's purely playing the system, i.e. to get into a school, I could understand that, but I'd prefer if people changed that culture rather than going along with the charade.  I'd have thought religious people would be happier to not have their church used as a means of getting into a certain school.

Are we really ok with a country in which the Catholics and Protestants get first pick of the schools and those of other religions and none must take the scraps of whats left?
Is that Multi-Culturalism Irish Style?  If it is it sucks.  We should ALL be very ashamed.

-Rd


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## Joe Nonety (8 Apr 2004)

*Re: .*

Actually Santy originated from last year's hurling Championship from Cyril Farrell's constantly referring to Setanta O Halpín as "Santy".
"Santy really delivered the goods today Ger".


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## Sean (8 Apr 2004)

*There ain't no sanity clause!*

All this talk of Santy reminds me of the Marx Brothers' "A Night at the Opera".

"WHAT'S THIS?" asks Chico. 
"It's in every contract.  That's what they call the sanity clause." replies Groucho.
Chico laughs and says back: "You can't fool me. There ain't no sanity clause!"


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## piggy (8 Apr 2004)

*"I've yet to meet a Catholic who when quetioned on what they "Really" believed didn't turn out to be either a protestant or a superstitious agnostic"*

You should talk to my dad so.


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## <A HREF=http://pub145.ezboard.com/baskaboutmoney.s (8 Apr 2004)

*Re: .*



> It would be interesting to stand up in front of a Catholic congregation and ask them if they believe that the host is now the flesh of Christ. (after the priest has done all the stuff)
> 
> What is holy water? What is a blessing? I'm also firmly convinced when This post will be deleted if not edited immediately said 'do this in memory of me' - He probably didn't mean it quite so literally. Maybe He meant for us to live our lives like He lived His life. Did This post will be deleted if not edited immediately ever make holy water?



No offence to any Christians out there but don't look for explanations of or justifications for much of Christian theology and practice in the Bible or the first hand accounts (written at least 70 years after Christ's death and then translated through several ancient languages don't forget) of This post will be deleted if not edited immediately Christ or you'll be left wondering.


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## daltonr (8 Apr 2004)

Joe, you really don't want to go down the road of origins.  The whole celebration of Christmas on December 25th was a cynical attempt to overshadow the Pagan festivities.  So by rights Christians shouldn't be celebrating Christmas in December at all.  April 15th I think is the correct date.

I didn't refer to the origins of Santa Claus, I referred to his current meaning.  Which is commercial pure and simple.  When was the last time you prayed to Saint Nicholas? 

The current image of Santa Claus was popularised by Coca Cola, but not invented by them, the Red clothes, beard and so on were there before Coke got their hands on it.  The Reindeer were invented by Clement Clarke Moore and have no Christian or other singnificance.  Rudolph was invented for an Ad I think.



> Next thing you'll be telling me the Christmas crib and the shamrock on St. Paddy's Day have no Christian origins either. LOL!



Nope, but I also wont be wearing any shamrock, or displaying a crib.  

Easter Eggs of course are a Pre-Christian tradition, so I presume you won't be having any.  I will, because I'm not as hung up on origins as you are.



> Did This post will be deleted if not edited immediately ever make holy water?



Wasn't a big fan of water.  Preferred to turn it into wine.
He'd be slung out faster than a smoker if he tried it in a pub today.

-Rd


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## Protocol (8 Apr 2004)

*From some Census data, published today*

*Persons without a religion more than doubled* 
The number of persons who indicated that they had no religion increased from 66,000 in 1991 to 138,000 in 2002. Almost half of those without a religion were aged between 20 and 39 years and of these 60 per cent were males. 


*Marriage breakdown highest for those with no stated religion* 

About one in five ever-married (excluding widowed) persons aged 15 years and over with no stated religion was either separated or divorced according to the results of the 2002 census. The corresponding rates for Muslims and Roman Catholics were 5 per cent and 8 per cent, respectively – below the national average rate of 8.4 per cent.


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## Joe Nonety (8 Apr 2004)

> Joe, you really don't want to go down the road of origins.


Yeah? Why not? Strangely enough I thought this was a discussion forum, where we could go down the road of whatever subject we wanted. What are you going to do? use your moderator super powers to prevent me discussing the origins of anything?



> I didn't refer to the origins of Santa Claus, I referred to his current meaning.



Actually it was the imagery of Saint Nicholas you were talking about unless 





> You think a fat guy with a white beard a red costume flying reindeer, and a bag full of toys is imagery of Saint Nicholas


 means something completely different to the obvious?
Of which I was saying at that at least some of this imagery orginates from St. Nicholas.


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## Joe Nonety (8 Apr 2004)

*Re: From some Census data, published today*



> The number of persons who indicated that they had no religion increased from 66,000 in 1991 to 138,000 in 2002



They might have put down "No religion" but I bet at least some of those 138,000 got married/will get married in a church.


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## <A HREF=http://pub145.ezboard.com/baskaboutmoney.s (8 Apr 2004)

> Marriage breakdown highest for those with no stated religion
> 
> About one in five ever-married (excluding widowed) persons aged 15 years and over with no stated religion was either separated or divorced according to the results of the 2002 census. The corresponding rates for Muslims and Roman Catholics were 5 per cent and 8 per cent, respectively – below the national average rate of 8.4 per cent.



I'm not sure what the point is but I have two comments (a) correlation does not necessarily imply causality and (b) so what?

As for Santy this link might be of interest to Joe and daltonr. Perhaps he deserves a topic of his own assuming that the Bishop of Kerry didn't allude to him?  

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Claus


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## Slim (8 Apr 2004)

> Did This post will be deleted if not edited immediately ever make holy water?



I'm sure He took a whiz, or several, each day....does that count?

Slim :lol


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## eusebius cassidy (8 Apr 2004)

*division and exclusion*

Of course Church and religion has involved a lot of division and exclusion throughout history. That doesn't necessarily mean it is to be condemned. For example, sport is another major source of division, exclusion (an sometimes hate), not least in our own country. It also does a lot of good, in bringing people together and fostering a sense of community and belonging among its participants. I would suggest that organised religion, despite its many faults, does something similar. 

It is therefore no accident that the decline in Irish religious practice in the past decade has been accompanied by a rise in individualism and a loss of community spirit at all levels of society.


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## Janeom (8 Apr 2004)

*re*

"I've yet to meet a Catholic who when quetioned on what they "Really" believed didn't turn out to be either a protestant or a superstitious agnostic"

I guess I am one of them. Grew up a Catholic but have been attending Anglican/COI services for the past 8 years. However I still attend R. Catholic mass on the odd weekend when I visit my parents. However I get so much more out of the COI service...the sermon, the music, the whole approach gives one time for more reflection. Also my husband is a presbyterian and is welcome to take communion there.
Until I met my husband I never really though much about my religion....going to mass was something I just did out of habit. I have to say that now I see the bread and wine as symbols and I probably should n't take communion at the RC mass when I attend. But I believe these differences between catholics and protestants are  all man made rules so I practice my faith whatever way feels right for me.

I have never officially declared that I am COI but when we have kids I guess we'll have to make more of an official decision.

Janeom


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## piggy (8 Apr 2004)

*Re: re*

*"But I believe these differences between catholics and protestants are all man made rules so I practice my faith whatever way feels right for me."*

I think you hit the nail on the head Janeom.


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## <A HREF=http://pub145.ezboard.com/baskaboutmoney.s (8 Apr 2004)

*Re: re*



> Of course Church and religion has involved a lot of division and exclusion throughout history. That doesn't necessarily mean it is to be condemned.



Not sure what prompted that comment but nobody has condemned religion (either generally or any specific version) in the course of this discussion as far as I'm aware.


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## The Snork Maiden (8 Apr 2004)

*re*

Joe wrote:

"They might have put down "No religion" but I bet at least some of those 138,000 got married/will get married in a church. "

I think the opposite is also true.

In my case, I would tick RC as my religion in a survey, hospital form or census, although I havent attend Mass (appart from Funerals/weddings etc) for over a decade, and I am not religious (heck I dont even believe in God).  But I most definitely wouldnt get married in a Church or by a Priest.


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## daltonr (8 Apr 2004)

*Re: re*



> What are you going to do? use your moderator super powers to prevent me discussing the origins of anything?



I was making the suggestion for your benefit not mine.  I only use my moderator super powers to save kids and fight super villians.

Let's not continue the discussion of Santa Claus.  I'm a little concerned that you seem to think that the biggest loss to an Atheist is that they don't get to tell their kids about Santa Claus.  You might want to rethink what you get out of religion if this is what preoccupies you about Ahteism.

In the mean time, rest assured that Atheists can celebrate any ceremony or festivify they like, because there's no god to strike them down.  If they want to give their kids gifts during Hanukah they can do it, it's their kids after all.

As much as you might like the idea of Atheists living dour boring lives with no fun to be had, it isn't like that.  But thanks for your concern.

BTW A tip for all you Atheists.  Hanukah gift wrapping paper is much cheaper than Christmas wrapping paper, because Hanukah ends before the christmas wrapping seasing gets into full swing.  So the paper is usually being sold off.

Roll on multi-cultural Ireland.

Also, if you can convince your kids that Santa visits Atheists in January, his shopping bill can be greatly reduced.

-Rd


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## eusebius cassidy (8 Apr 2004)

*My point...*

0

My point was not a rebuttal of any previous post but simply something that I think was missed in the debate so far. Is it too much to expect that viewpoints can be expressed and accepted on their own merits? Surely this is not some sort of college debating society where every contribution has to be adversarial for the sake of it??!!!


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## daltonr (8 Apr 2004)

*Re: My point...*



> Surely this is not some sort of college debating society where every contribution has to be adversarial for the sake of it??!!!



I knew this felt very familiar!!!!!!!    


-Rd


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## <A HREF=http://pub145.ezboard.com/baskaboutmoney.s (8 Apr 2004)

*Re: My point...*

Classic post above daltonr but, like poor old Mad Mel, you're perilously close to being accused of anti-semitic tendancies by hinting at certain Judaic stereotypes with that reference to cheap Hanukkah gift wrapping paper! :lol 

eusebius - apologies for presuming that your contribution had something to do with the discussion so far.


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## Joe Nonety (8 Apr 2004)

*Re: My point...*



> I'm a little concerned that you seem to think that the biggest loss to an Atheist is that they don't get to tell their kids about Santa Claus.



Actually you'll find that I never said or implied that the biggest loss to an atheist is that they they don't tell their kids about Santa Claus.
I just mentioned it as I think its just one of the benefits of being a Christian I think an atheist kid misses out on.

I have no problem with Atheists celebrating religious festivals. Party on. We all celebrate Christmas better than the Americans anyway, where at 9pm on Christmas Day, the streets are littered with Christmas trees that have been disgarded already.

An Atheist referring to December 26th as December 26th instead of St. Stephen's day is better than calling it Boxing day anyway!

As far as a preoccupation with atheists - One discussion thread does not a preoccupation make. My only bone is with Atheists and non practicing Catholics using Churches for their weddings and forcing practicing Catholics to wait exuberant lengths of time for their weddings.


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## Joe Nonety (8 Apr 2004)

*Re: My point...*

exhorbitant -> exorbitant
LOL!

yes, as Father Jack would say

"That would be an ecumenical matter"


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## rufus (8 Apr 2004)

*Major rise in Muslims, Orthodox Christians*

[broken link removed]


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## Max (8 Apr 2004)

*sniping*

eusebius, you must be new to the site


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## daltonr (8 Apr 2004)

*Re: 0*



> anti-semitic tendancies by hinting at certain Judaic stereotypes with that reference to cheap Hanukkah gift wrapping paper!



Of course the paper wouldn't be cheap for the Jewish People, they'd have to buy Hanukah paper BEFORE Hanukah so they'd be paying full whack.

-Rd


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## <A HREF=http://pub145.ezboard.com/baskaboutmoney.s (8 Apr 2004)

*Re: sniping*



> if you have no constructive comment to make in relation to my post, why do you persist in sniping at it?



I thought that my first comment was constructive. :\


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## eusebius cassidy (8 Apr 2004)

*.*

...insofar as you sought to contradict something which I didn't even allege in the first instance...


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## <A HREF=http://pub145.ezboard.com/baskaboutmoney.s (8 Apr 2004)

*Re: My point...*



> As far as a preoccupation with atheists - One discussion thread does not a preoccupation make. My only bone is with Atheists and non practicing Catholics using Churches for their weddings and forcing practicing Catholics to wait exuberant lengths of time for their weddings.



I presume you meant exorbitant otherwise I don't see what the problem is.    At least myself and yourself (sort of) agree on this issue. I'm still not convinced about the theological basis for Santy but let's invoke ecumenism and forget about our differences? Amen.


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## <A HREF=http://pub145.ezboard.com/baskaboutmoney.s (8 Apr 2004)

*Re: sniping*

Oh stop sniping...


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## daltonr (8 Apr 2004)

*Re: sniping*

If that Bishop had kept his mouth shut we wouldn't have all this sniping.

eusebius,  forgive 0, He's a cantankerous old fart.
And after all it's the christian thing to do.

If it's any consolation he'll be burning in Hell soon.

-Rd


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## Joe Nonety (8 Apr 2004)

*Re: sniping*

For Christians and Atheists alike...

Why did Popeye beat up This post will be deleted if not edited immediately?

Because This post will be deleted if not edited immediately went to Mount Olive.


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## <A HREF=http://pub145.ezboard.com/baskaboutmoney.s (8 Apr 2004)

*Re: sniping*



> If it's any consolation he'll be burning in Hell soon.



Wasn't it Jean Paul Sartre who said "hell is other people"? He must be an AAM regular!


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## daltonr (8 Apr 2004)

*Re: sniping*

Has anyone seen the Gary Larson cartoon: Scientist Hell.

It's a scientist being led into a room where he will spend eternity.  It's full of Numerologists, Astrologists, Psychics, etc, etc.

Genius.

-Rd


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## <A HREF=http://pub145.ezboard.com/baskaboutmoney.s (8 Apr 2004)

*Re: sniping*

I always liked that other joke about the mechanic, the physicist and the mathematician stranded and starving on a desert island with only some tins of beans to eat but no tin opener. The first two explain in detail their plans for opening the tin using their own particular skills and expertise. When it comes to the mathematician's turn he begins "Assume the tin is open. Now...".


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## MissRibena (14 Apr 2004)

*Definition of a Practising Catholic*

Sorry in advance for re-opening this can of worms but I mentioned this to my mam over the weekend and according to her to be considered a practising Catholic, you had to 

a) obey the Ten Commandments, AND;

b) obey the Precepts of the Church (any errors here are more likely due to my slow shorthand as my mam could rattle this off in one breath!)

1.  To hear Mass on Sunday and Holy Days of Obligation;
2.  To fast and abstain on the days appointed;
3.  To confess sins at least once a year;
4.  To receive worthily (i.e. in a state of grace) the Blessed Eucharist at Eastertime or within the time appoitned (i.e. Between Ash Weds and Trinity Sunday);
5.  To contribute to the support of pastors;
6.  To observe the marriage laws of the Church.

She doesn't think that these precepts were abolished or amended by Vatican II and the only reason we don't hear them is because the Church has decided not to labour these particular points; like the vow of poverty, I suppose.

You can't say I don't do me homework, miss!!  
Rebecca


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## daltonr (14 Apr 2004)

*Re: Definition of a Practising Catholic*

Thanks for that, it's very interesting.
OK, that's what you have to DO.

But does she know what you have to BELIEVE?

i.e.  Can I be a catholic if I don't believe that communion is flesh.  For example.

What else MUST I believe if I want to be a catholic?

I always thought that one difference between Catholics and Protestants was the Protestants didn't believe in the Immaculate Conception, but I recently heard I might be wrong on this,  does anyone know?

Bottom line, what's the difference between a Catholic and a Protestant, and am I right in my theory that most Irish Catholics are really protestants.

-Rd


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## <A HREF=http://pub145.ezboard.com/baskaboutmoney.s (14 Apr 2004)

*Re: Definition of a Practising Catholic*

This article might be of interest in relation to the Catholic versus Protestant question:

[broken link removed]


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## Marion (15 Apr 2004)

Rd

Protestants do not believe that Mary is witout sin. The only person they believe is without sin is This post will be deleted if not edited immediately. So, the immaculate conception theory is one that is not taken seriously by Protestants, but one which must be believed by Catholics.

Marion :hat


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## ttraces (15 Apr 2004)

*prayer*

I'll say a prayer for you all that you'll return to the flock soon.


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## <A HREF=http://pub145.ezboard.com/baskaboutmoney.s (15 Apr 2004)

*Re: Definition of a Practising Catholic*

Note that most orthodox Protestants do believe in the immaculate conception (i.e. that Mary was still a virgin when she was pregnant with This post will be deleted if not edited immediately) but do not adhere to other Catholic beliefs (many of which have no Biblical basis) such as perpetual virginity (e.g. that Mary continued to be a virgin and bore no siblings of This post will be deleted if not edited immediately), cultic veneration of Mary etc.


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## <A HREF=http://pub145.ezboard.com/baskaboutmoney.s (15 Apr 2004)

*Re: prayer*

Perhaps the Bishop of Kerry should take a leaf out of the US Catholic Church's book? :\ 

news.google.com/news?hl=e...earch+News


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## slammed (15 Apr 2004)

*There be no religion in Ireland if we had to pay for it*

Here's the situation in Germany.  Taken from 
[broken link removed]

Church Tax

A rather unique part of the German tax system is the ‘Kirchensteuer’ (Church Tax). The origins of the ‘Kirchensteuer’ date back to the early part of the 19th century when the churches were granted the right to levy taxes by Prussia partly as a way of compensating them for property which had been sequestered to help pay for the Napoleonic wars.

The churches’ right to levy the tax now forms part of the German constitution.

When filling in your tax form or on your first visit to the ‘Steuerberater/in’ you will be asked to nominate a religion. If you nominate a religion, you will have to pay ‘Kirchensteuer’. This means the tax authorities levy a 9 percent tax as a payroll deduction on the income of every Protestant, Catholic, and Jewish German who declares their religion on the tax forms.

If you have no religion, you say no. But you should be aware that the tax office can at some point follow you up and ask you to prove that you have no religion. This is relatively easy for Germans. They normally follow a formal process to step out of their church and have documents to prove it. 

I'd cancel my membership if I had to pay 9% of my salary.


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## <A HREF=http://pub145.ezboard.com/baskaboutmoney.s (15 Apr 2004)

*Re: prayer*



> This is relatively easy for Germans. They normally follow a formal process to step out of their church and have documents to prove it.



Why does that not surprise me? :lol


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## Contango10 (9 Jun 2004)

*9% church tax*

I very strongly doubt that this tax is 9% of an employee's wages.

That seems far too high.


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## rainyday (9 Jun 2004)

Thread locked - see .


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## Mary Magdalene (9 Jun 2004)

*thank you rainyday*

Finally, some semblance of justice.


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