# PS Uncertified Sick Leave



## Firefly (1 Dec 2009)

I think uncertified sick leave should be unpaid. What do people think?


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## Howitzer (1 Dec 2009)

Not just in the public sector presumably?


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## Caveat (1 Dec 2009)

I don't know.  I am paid uncertified sick leave up to 2 days (private sector) and AFAIK many people are - I have no idea how many uncertified sick days I am allowed per year - I am rarely off sick  - 3 or 4 days in 10 years maybe?

The problem is one of attitude more than anything but I've no idea how to address that.


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## DeeFox (1 Dec 2009)

I assume you mean Public Service by the abbreviation PS and not the Private Service..... now I'm off to the pet hates thread with another thing that drives me mad....


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## galleyslave (1 Dec 2009)

public or private sector, the standards and expectations ought to be the same.


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## Booter (1 Dec 2009)

I don't think it should be unpaid, but maybe 85-90% pay would be fair. There is some little saving for most people when not in work, although the bigger issue would be the dis-incentive to abuse the privilege.


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## Graham_07 (1 Dec 2009)

There is no statutory obligation on any employer to pay sick leave. However many employers do pay it. Some grant an immediate entitlement under the employment contract, others only after a certain period of service whereby the employee "earns the right" as it were toi X number of sick days. The problem, unfortunately, with sick days ( especially uncertified ones) is that there will always be people who consider them additional holidays and ensure they take them, regardless of health condition.


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## Mpsox (1 Dec 2009)

It is unpaid in a lot of employers but even where it is paid, a manager should have the discretion to refuse. For example, I never sanction a days pay for "flu", if you have the flu, you're out for more then a week, not a day. Likewise I had a guy off for 2 days earlier in the year with severe sunburn, no arguement that he was sick, but why should we pay him for being a complete and utter pillock.


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## Purple (1 Dec 2009)

I don't think it's a big issue for most public sector employees. High figures are quoted for the prison service etc but this can be skewed by a small minority that take advantage. I wonder that the median amount is?


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## Holtend82 (1 Dec 2009)

Im in the public sector 6 years and i have had 2 sick days. Both uncertified. One for the winter virus and the other for a broken toe i had to get an X ray on, seriously is this just another tread to drive a wedge between the public private sector. People in the private sector had it very good for a long time, when i joined the public sector 6 years ago i could have gotten a job no problem in the private sector for alot more money, dont judge us because we chose security over personal wealth. nobody joins the public sector to get rich.


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## Howitzer (1 Dec 2009)

Purple said:


> I don't think it's a big issue for most public sector employees. High figures are quoted for the prison service etc but this can be skewed by a small minority that take advantage. I wonder that the median amount is?


You do know that for a small minority of anything to skew the figures of the majority of that thing would take a huge variance from the norm from that said same minority?

Statistically speaking.


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## Firefly (1 Dec 2009)

Initially I meant the public service given the ongoing discussions about reducing costs, but can see that in the private sector reduced uncertified sick pay would improve national competitiveness...so both.


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## Holtend82 (1 Dec 2009)

To be fair i dont see a big difference between certified and non certified, i know of a doctor in cork who could certify for for a month for a runny nose if you asked him !!


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## becky (1 Dec 2009)

Mpsox said:


> It is unpaid in a lot of employers but even where it is paid, a manager should have the discretion to refuse. For example, I never sanction a days pay for "flu", if you have the flu, you're out for more then a week, not a day. Likewise I had a guy off for 2 days earlier in the year with severe sunburn, no arguement that he was sick, but why should we pay him for being a complete and utter pillock.


 
We had a spate of skiing accidents - certified sick leave.  I wanted it banned at a holiday.  How would you have dealt with that.


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## Purple (1 Dec 2009)

Howitzer said:


> You do know that for a small minority of anything to skew the figures of the majority of that thing would take a huge variance from the norm from that said same minority?
> 
> Statistically speaking.



Yes


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## Firefly (2 Dec 2009)

becky said:


> We had a spate of skiing accidents - certified sick leave. I wanted it banned at a holiday. How would you have dealt with that.


 
Difficult one I agree, however I was asking about uncertified sick leave, such as the Mon & Fri type where it's obvious that a sickie is being pulled rather than an accident/injury. 

I'm biased as I'm self employed where I am paid per day...if I'm off for whatever reason I'm not paid


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## galleyslave (2 Dec 2009)

whether its a "minority that skews the figures" or a majority taking the mickey, why is it tolerated?


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## Sunny (2 Dec 2009)

There is nothing wrong with uncertified sick leave as long as it is monitored and managed. A tiny minority in the public and private sector abuse the privilage but it is up to the employers to take steps to stop this. The only people who win from having certified sick leave for every days illness are doctors. Also, there are health issues if people who are genuinely sick are forced to go into work because they can't afford or can't get access to a doctor on a particular day.


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## galleyslave (2 Dec 2009)

ok, to clarify,  			whether its a "minority that skews the figures" or a majority taking the mickey, why is excessive sick leave tolerated, particularly as it appears, in certain parts of the PS as referenced by http://www.independent.ie/national-news/workers-in-public-sector-take-more-sick-days-1587716.html ?


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## Mpsox (2 Dec 2009)

becky said:


> We had a spate of skiing accidents - certified sick leave. I wanted it banned at a holiday. How would you have dealt with that.


 
It's more difficult if it's certifed and in fairness, you can't ask people to wrap themselves in cotton wool outside of work. I played hurling and rugby and got a few knocks in my time but none of them were serious enough to warrant time off.

You could refer them to your company doctor (if you have one) or occ health specialist for a 2nd opinion/helping your employee as part of your responsibilities.


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## becky (2 Dec 2009)

Mpsox said:


> It's more difficult if it's certifed and in fairness, you can't ask people to wrap themselves in cotton wool outside of work. I played hurling and rugby and got a few knocks in my time but none of them were serious enough to warrant time off.
> 
> You could refer them to your company doctor (if you have one) or occ health specialist for a 2nd opinion/helping your employee as part of your responsibilities.


 
Can't see what good it would do.  Occ Health will tell me they have a broken ankle (I knew that) and they will fit for work once the bones have healed (I knew that too).

Skiing holidays don't sem as popular these days so it's not an issue anymore.


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## liaconn (2 Dec 2009)

It might lead to less one off sick days. But if people have to go to the doctor everytime they have a bad cold they will look for a cert for the week and only go back when they're fully recovered. If they have the option of taking a couple of days uncertified, many people will go back in on the third day even if they're still feeling a bit under the weather, rather than go to the hassle and expense of making an appointment to see the doctor.


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## S.L.F (2 Dec 2009)

Firefly said:


> I think uncertified sick leave should be unpaid.


 
So when a med worker (nurse, surgeon, doctor or cleaner) is sick they should go into work anyway.

What a great idea


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## Latrade (2 Dec 2009)

S.L.F said:


> So when a med worker (nurse, surgeon, doctor or cleaner) is sick they should go into work anyway.
> 
> What a great idea


 
The point was uncertified leave. If they're sick they can get a a certificate and therefore be paid.


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## S.L.F (2 Dec 2009)

Latrade said:


> The point was uncertified leave. If they're sick they can get a a certificate and therefore be paid.


 
A cert costs €60 to get, if you are feeling like a dog in the morning you know you are sick but reckon it is just a bad cold, do you need to go to the doctor to have him tell you you have a cold?


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## RonanC (2 Dec 2009)

And also, and especially in my case, my local doctor (GP) doesnt give appointment times, so you sit in the waiting room to be seen, no secretary or receptionist either. So you could be left sitting for a couple of hours depending on how busy they are, and they are busy at the moment. I would only ever go to a doctor if I knew I was sick enough to be out more than 2 days and usually I would need an antibiotic.


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## DB74 (2 Dec 2009)

S.L.F said:


> A cert costs €60 to get, if you are feeling like a dog in the morning you know you are sick but reckon it is just a bad cold, do you need to go to the doctor to have him tell you you have a cold?


 
Well what do you propose then?


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## Ham Slicer (2 Dec 2009)

S.L.F said:


> A cert costs €60 to get, if you are feeling like a dog in the morning you know you are sick but reckon it is just a bad cold, do you need to go to the doctor to have him tell you you have a cold?



I think the general point is that they are not actually sick and not feeling like a dog.

I know when that report was relased a few weeks ago about PS sick days(I can't recall the average but think it was 11 days) I mentioned it to my brother who works in HSE.

He's in a department of 8-10 people.  He ran through them all in his head and reckons they all took in excess of average off in the last year.  No serious illnesses - just colds and flu (that lasted a day maybe 2), upset tummy, just not feeling right.


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## S.L.F (2 Dec 2009)

DB74 said:


> Well what do you propose then?


 
I really don't have a solution but nor do I think this is as big an issue as people make it out to be.


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## S.L.F (2 Dec 2009)

Ham Slicer said:


> I think the general point is that they are not actually sick and not feeling like a dog.
> 
> I know when that report was relased a few weeks ago about PS sick days(I can't recall the average but think it was 11 days) I mentioned it to my brother who works in HSE.
> 
> He's in a department of 8-10 people. He ran through them all in his head and reckons they all took in excess of average off in the last year. No serious illnesses - just colds and flu (that lasted a day maybe 2), upset tummy, just not feeling right.


 
The average days was I think 6 or 8 for men and 11 or 14 for women.


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## Latrade (2 Dec 2009)

S.L.F said:


> A cert costs €60 to get, if you are feeling like a dog in the morning you know you are sick but reckon it is just a bad cold, do you need to go to the doctor to have him tell you you have a cold?


 
Well in your own example of a sick doctor or surgeon, it wouldn't be that difficult to obtain. 

But it isn't the employer's problem if that is the cost. The point was if they are sick and have a medical cert, they get paid.


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## Purple (2 Dec 2009)

RonanC said:


> And also, and especially in my case, my local doctor (GP) doesnt give appointment times, so you sit in the waiting room to be seen, no secretary or receptionist either. So you could be left sitting for a couple of hours depending on how busy they are, and they are busy at the moment. I would only ever go to a doctor if I knew I was sick enough to be out more than 2 days and usually I would need an antibiotic.



Go to a different doctor.


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## colm5 (2 Dec 2009)

When I worked in the US I was told you have 3 weeks vacation, including sick days. Thats it! If you need more time off, its unpaid leave. Strangely enough, very few people were ever sick from work.


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## liaconn (2 Dec 2009)

But I wonder how many people had accidents in work or made costly or dangerous mistakes, due to turning up for work when they weren't fit.


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## Caveat (2 Dec 2009)

If the Indo ran an article that said "loads" would you accept it though?


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## liaconn (2 Dec 2009)

Caveat said:


> If the Indo ran an article that said "loads" would you accept it though?


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## Caveat (2 Dec 2009)

liaconn said:


> But I wonder *how many people* had accidents in work or made costly or dangerous mistakes, due to turning up for work when they weren't fit.


 


Caveat said:


> If the Indo ran an article that said "loads" would you accept it though?


 

I was referring to the above and the fact that most PS workers seemingly don't believe a word the Indo says. 

On Colm5's point, how easy would it be to increase annual leave by a few days and total to be used for holidays and/or uncertified illness?  All other uncertified illness = loss of pay.

I would certainly accept this condition myself in my job anyway - surely there is a very good chance that there would be savings made if the days lost due to alleged sick day abuse is even half true? Those PS workers who maintain that their sick leave is minimal would still have their few days a year to use.


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## Firefly (2 Dec 2009)

S.L.F said:


> A cert costs €60 to get, if you are feeling like a dog in the morning you know you are sick but reckon it is just a bad cold, do you need to go to the doctor to have him tell you you have a cold?


 
If it was a choice of spending 60 quid or losing a day's pay I'm sure most people to spend the 60 quid.


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## colm5 (3 Dec 2009)

Caveat said:


> I would certainly accept this condition myself in my job anyway - surely there is a very good chance that there would be savings made if the days lost due to alleged sick day abuse is even half true? Those PS workers who maintain that their sick leave is minimal would still have their few days a year to use.


 
Surely the sick day statistics published earlier in the year show that it is rampant. All new contracts should be issued in this way. Generally, behaviour like this spreads throughout an organisation if they can get away with it. Obviously not everyone does it, and so they have nothing to worry about.
If an ever increasing portion of employees have a defined sum of 'sick and holiday' allowance, the levels of abuse would surely decrease, where as employees that have old contracts may feel the guilt factor. Or maybe not...

To cover the exceptions of med-to-long term illness, private work absence insurance can be used. I would be surprised if a private insurer would not fully investigate multiple missed days.

For an example, take Belgium. Doctors are sent randomly to check on people who report in sick, even for 1 day. A good system I think.


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## liaconn (3 Dec 2009)

Caveat said:


> I was referring to the above and the fact that most PS workers seemingly don't believe a word the Indo says.
> 
> On Colm5's point, how easy would it be to increase annual leave by a few days and total to be used for holidays and/or uncertified illness? All other uncertified illness = loss of pay.
> 
> I would certainly accept this condition myself in my job anyway - surely there is a very good chance that there would be savings made if the days lost due to alleged sick day abuse is even half true? Those PS workers who maintain that their sick leave is minimal would still have their few days a year to use.


 
If the Indo told me grass is green, I would go outside and check for myself.


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## Purple (3 Dec 2009)

liaconn said:


> If the Indo told me grass is green, I would go outside and check for myself.



Whereas the Irish Time (the paper of the smoked salmon socialist) and RTE (the public sector broadcaster) are unbiased?


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## liaconn (3 Dec 2009)

Purple said:


> Whereas the Irish Time (the paper of the smoked salmon socialist) and RTE (the public sector broadcaster) are unbiased?


 
I was asked specifically about the Indo, Purple. However, now you mention it I don't think any part of the media are unbiased but the Indo is the worst, a complete rag.


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## Purple (3 Dec 2009)

liaconn said:


> I was asked specifically about the Indo, Purple. However, now you mention it I don't think any part of the media are unbiased but the Indo is the worst, a complete rag.


 I agree that the Indo is a rag, but for different reasons.


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## daithi (4 Dec 2009)

I work in the Medical Labs in the Public Health system.We have no uncertified sick leave-if your'e feeling sick ,but not sick enough to warrant a sick cert,it comes out of your holidays.

daithi


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## Firefly (4 Dec 2009)

daithi said:


> I work in the Medical Labs in the Public Health system.We have no uncertified sick leave-if your'e feeling sick ,but not sick enough to warrant a sick cert,it comes out of your holidays.
> 
> daithi


 
i can hear the heavy footsteps of over-weight, bearded men approaching you now....


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## Deiseblue (4 Dec 2009)

Firefly said:


> i can hear the heavy footsteps of over-weight, bearded men approaching you now....


Too early for Santa surely ?


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## Purple (4 Dec 2009)

daithi said:


> I work in the Medical Labs in the Public Health system.We have no uncertified sick leave-if your'e feeling sick ,but not sick enough to warrant a sick cert,it comes out of your holidays.
> 
> daithi



Good. That's the way it should be. Your employer pays you for your time/skill. They are not your mammy and so should not be required to look after you when you are sick.


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