# €200 Property tax..dependent relative....8km from me



## Squonk (1 Sep 2009)

My widowed mother lives in a house that I own. She leves rent-free and is a dependent relative. My house is about 8km from my mother's home. Looking at the nppr.ie website it states that there is an exemption for the €200 tax where "The exemption applies to a dwelling in which a relative (or a relative of a spouse or partner) lives if it is provided free of rent and if it is located no more than two kilometres from the residence of the owner."  The dwelling is 8km from my residence in my situation. Who can I appeal to? My local council (Cork)?, or would I better to try to get a TD or councillor to argue my case?


----------



## Howitzer (1 Sep 2009)

Squonk said:


> and if it is located no more than two kilometres from the residence of the owner.


What a strange stipulation. Given the deadline is this month I think you're best off paying the tax and then appealing on the basis that you've outlined. I'd imagine your inital appeal should be to the body you are paying and if (when) that gets refused escalating it.


----------



## Clohass (1 Sep 2009)

I don't understand the rationale for this at all. I'm in the same situation (4.5 km from house). I've written an e-mail to John Gormley and asked for an explanation as I don't understand the rationale. This seems like a random distance and in fact I don't understand why a distance is relevant. I have not yet received a reply. I'd suggest popping off an e-mail to minister@environ.gov.ie which is what I did.


----------



## Squonk (1 Sep 2009)

Maybe the rationale is that 2km is an easy enough distance to walk or cycle; anything beyond that would need a car...and the Greens don't like it when we use cars, so the €200 is a form of subterfuge carbon tax in this situation!


----------



## Howitzer (1 Sep 2009)

It makes no sense as it is in conflict with the exemptions for Capital Gains Tax on the same property, where no distance restriction is applied.



> A gain on the disposal by an
> ​​individual of a dwelling-house (including grounds of up to one acre) is​
> exempt in certain circumstances. The exemption is available if, throughout the individual’s period of
> ownership, the house had been occupied by the individual as his/her only or main residence or, under​​​
> certain circumstances, as the sole residence of a dependent relative.​


 
http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/cgt/leaflets/cgt1.pdf​


----------



## ottobock (2 Sep 2009)

Sorry but I've more questions than answers 

I own a second house jointly with my sisters with my mother legally entitled to live there rent free for the rest of her life. (it was originally our home growing up) However she is mostly in a nursing home only coming home to stay when she feels well enough.
One sister is within the 2 KM limit but the others including me are outside this limit.

Are we liable for the tax?
(sorry for asking another question in the middle of this thread)


----------



## Squonk (2 Sep 2009)

I'm taking the advice above and sending an email to minister@environ.gov.ie 
The 2km limit might be a stipulation they are willing to change if they get enough grief (especially since it seems to contradict the revenue line as per Howitzer's post)


----------



## rosemartin (2 Sep 2009)

the whole thing is a joke,  i would suggest going to your local TD or county councillor at one of their clinics as they love all this.  anyone who has a second house is now getting screwed as there is a property tax coming as well so what is this you cant suffer double taxiation, but fair play to the greens, this new carbon tax is another joke, fuel bills will go up, which means product prices will rise.  you cant buy an old bulb now that has worked for 150 years.you have to buy an energy efficent one now,that has crap light and costs alot more


----------



## Squonk (22 Sep 2009)

Clohass said:


> I don't understand the rationale for this at all. I'm in the same situation (4.5 km from house). I've written an e-mail to John Gormley and asked for an explanation as I don't understand the rationale. This seems like a random distance and in fact I don't understand why a distance is relevant. I have not yet received a reply. I'd suggest popping off an e-mail to minister@environ.gov.ie which is what I did.


 Clohass...did you ever get a reply to this question?


----------



## Clohass (22 Sep 2009)

Good morning

No I have not received a reply yet (other than an automated receipt) however I haven't had an opportunity to think any more as my mam is now in hospital and we are in the middle of trying to establish/access appropriate care going forward so it may be a while before I get back to this. However I would suggest the more people who raise this issue the better.


----------



## Ravima (22 Sep 2009)

how does this distance thing fit in with Article 40.1 of the Constitution?


----------



## Squonk (22 Sep 2009)

Ravima said:


> how does this distance thing fit in with Article 40.1 of the Constitution?


 What's Article 40.1?


----------



## Dachshund (22 Sep 2009)

Article 40.1 [FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]All citizens shall, as human persons, be held equal before the law. This shall not be held to mean that the State shall not in its enactments have due regard to differences of capacity, physical and moral, and of social function.

I'm not entirely sure what Ravima means either?


----------



## Ravima (23 Sep 2009)

how are they equal if there is a tax to be paid depending on the distance where ones parents/dependant relatives live from you?


----------



## Squonk (23 Sep 2009)

I have had no reponse from Gormley's office but I have received this from Cork City council....just reiterating what's on the nppr website. I have now asked where the 2km limit came from as it seems arbitrary: 

"Exemption applies to a granny flat or similar dwelling in which a relative lives in, if it is provided free of rent and if it located no more than 2km from the residence home. As your house, which your mother lives in rent free, is more than 2km you are liable for the charge.

I have been informed that the NPPR charge is totally separate from Capital Gains Tax guidelines. If you have any other queries do not hesitate to contact me."


----------



## Squonk (23 Sep 2009)

From Cork City Council : "The guidelines in relation to NPPR where set down by the Department of Environment and sent to every Local Authority to follow in relation to collecting the charge." ...back to Gormley !


----------



## Clohass (7 Oct 2009)

Reply received today to my query to John Gormleys Office.

7 October, 2009. Dear Mr. XXXXX, I have been asked by Mr. John Gormley, T.D., Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, to refer further to your recent correspondence in connection with the charge of €200 on non-principal private residences. The Government has decided to broaden the revenue base of local authorities through the introduction of this charge on non-principal private residences, which is set at €200 per dwelling and is being levied and collected by local authorities.  It will be used to support the provision of local services and the income from the charge will be retained by the individual local authorities that collect it. The Local Government (Charges) Act 2009, which sets out the detail of the €200 charge on non-principal private residences, is structured with a starting position of a universal liability for residential property in respect of the charge.  It goes on to exempt certain buildings and owners from this liability, the most important exemption being where a property is occupied by the owner as his or her sole or main residence on the liability date. An exemption is also included for property in which a relative of the owner is living rent-free, as long as that residence is on the same property or within two kilometres of the owner’s main residence.  This provision was intended principally to cater for situations in which accommodation would be provided for an elderly parent by a son or daughter in order that the parent concerned can retain a measure of independent living for as long as possible.  In drafting the provision, account was taken of the legislation that applies in relation to the home carer tax credit.  The criteria of “on the same property” or “within two kilometres” are consistent with the fact that one party is meant, in some measure at least, to be caring for the other – something which cannot reasonably be done if they live long distances apart.  The “two kilometres” provision follows precedent from the Revenue Commissioners’ legislation dealing with the home carer tax credit. Yours sincerely, ________________


----------



## Clohass (7 Oct 2009)

I have replied to the minister as follows and would ask people in a similar situation to considering e-mailing also.

Good afternoon
Thank you for the prompt reply to my initial query. Based on what you have outlined I now understand where the 2KM limit came from, however I would once again request that this be re-examined with a view to revising this criteria. 
Home Carers tax credit is a separate issue and I fail to understand why not qualifying for/applying for this credit means that I must pay the €200 charge on a house we have provided to allow my elderly mother to live independently for as long as possible. i.e. doing exactly what this exemption is meant to allow for/encourage.
I regard this provision as unfair and discriminatory as it is possible for an individual to provide a home for an elderly parent irrespective of the distance they reside away from that home. 
As I say I live only 4.5 - 5.0 kms away but even if I lived 50kms away I would probably feel as aggrieved about this issue.
Yours sincerely


----------



## cheweybacca (7 Oct 2009)

I'm in a similar situation as yourselves (squonk, clohass) with an auntie living in a house i inherited. She has rights to live there for lifetime as laid out in Will which is also on folio.

My query is detailed here http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=122201 but the most interesting thing is the response in the irish times link on that thread suggesting the definition of owner in the act is somebody who is entitled to rent the dwelling. You can't rent it if somebody is legally entitled to stay there for their lifetime is the gist of it so therefore exempt. 

Its all down to the legal interpretation of the defintion of owner in the act rather than what you might think owner is.


----------



## Squonk (29 Oct 2009)

I just paid my €200....broke my heart. Gormley's office never got back in touch with me. I'm paying enough money to keep my mother in her house without having this €200 on my back each year...and there's only one way this charge is going and that's UP each year.


----------



## Clohass (29 Oct 2009)

Snap - I paid this morning also as I don't see an alternative. Maybe in the Budget this will be revised but I won't hold my breath, however unfair it is. I also didn't receive a response to my e-mail querying the initial response I received.


----------

