# Advice on a relationship issue?



## bullwinkle (20 Feb 2012)

Hi

probably the wrong forum but I cannot access the Depths which I normally read.  I have a bit of an issue that has been coming to a head for a few months now. 

My husband was unemployed for a long period of time.  He then got a job with a very very close friend of mine.  Initially everything was great then it became apparent to me that he didn't like the job at all, it was something that he had to retrain for.  Essentially he came from being a boss to being the lowest man on the totem.  To be honest I didn't really care whether he liked it or not as we needed the money and still do - we have a large mortgage and debt, I already work 6 days a week and don't have any more hours in the day.  

Anyway, it seems that although he has stuck the job out, he has been putting in the bare minimum of effort, leaving early, standing around etc.  Anyway friend didn't want to say anything to me but it was causing tension and eventually they told me - apparently it's been going on for months.  My friend called my husband in for a chat last week trying to get him to see that he needs this job but apparently by husband reacted very badly - blaming everybody else etc and now there is a big stand off.   So, my dilemma is now that he is hurting my friends business so I think he'll have to hand in his notice as he was good enough to help us out when we needed it.    However - it doesn't end at that does it?  we will badly suffer financially and also our relationship is going to suffer.  I am working like a dog to support us and pay our bills and debts, I always thought we were a team, now it seems that I am on my own and he will be happy enough to let me carry us - I don't know if our relationship could survive it.  

Of course the other issue is just the disappointment and embarrassment of knowing that my husband is that guy who doesn't pull his weight.   I spoke to him months ago about how he needs to just suck it up and get on with it and thought that was an end to it.  I haven't told him yet that I know about last weeks meeting and all the other issues - he'll probably go nuts that I even know and blame my friend for telling me etc.    

I'd really welcome any advice anyone could give to me - I'm afraid of either option at the moment.


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## 44brendan (20 Feb 2012)

I am far more comfortable commenting on the financial rather than the relationship issues, but I feel that your post reflects a position that has become much more frequent since the economic dowturn and I will put forward my tuppence worth which may or may not be of help.
The core of this problem may be one of pride rather than lack of work ethics. I.e. Your husband may be feeling that the current job is beneath him and also may be be depressed following a term of unemployment & a feeling of is this "as good as it is going to get" syndrome. 
If he is generally a reasonable & approachable person, then what is required is a full & frank discussion of all issues between you. Simmering resentment, seldom gets better if left unaddressed. Telling him to just "suck it up and get on with it", while it may be true is unlikely to resolve the position. We men tend to take that as criticism rather than advice 
It's unfortunate that your friend has now been landed in a position where he/she feels that having done you a turn it's now rebounding on him. While you are right in that he needs to get his act in order on this issue, you may well need to approach this in a calm & reasoned manner if you don't want to put your whole relationship at risk. 
Is it possible that you could agree to discuss the whole issue (not just the job) as 2 adults looking to find a solution that you can both live with? Also, does he appreciate that he is risking the relationship? You know yourself (from your post) that the position cannot continue, but rather than letting it fester until it explodes, it would be better to agree to a discussion without blame being attached at this time. I.e. to find a solution that you both can live with.


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## miss lilac (20 Feb 2012)

It really is a catch 22 situation you and your husband are in isnt it? I really feel for you.. As an outsider looking in it seems to me that like the above reply said, it sounds as if your husband could be suffering from depression. These recessional times have done huge damage to the mental health of our nation and people who were working in good jobs that they liked and felt comfortable in had to go and take jobs they were not skilled in and maybe had no interest in. Round peg in square hole scenario ? Get the drift ? Can be very depressing for someone who has to go into a job that they detest day after day. Maybe that is what is wrong and maybe, just maybe he is wishing that he will get the sack to remove the emphasis from him. He does not want to leave because the person employing him is a friend. Yet he is doing what he is doing to give that person a reason for letting him go. I do hope things work out for you all. You must be exhaused yourself too with working 6 days a week. Would it be possible to take a break away even for one night to wind down together and have a meal and a good long chat about where your life is at and what direction you would like it to be going? Good luck to you both.


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## bullwinkle (20 Feb 2012)

44Brendan - thank you for your post.  If i'm honest I am just at the end of my tether here and that's why I posted it on the forum.  I understand what you are saying about pride etc and I do think that's at issue here.  Essentially we had this all out months ago when I realized that he hated the job.  We went through what he hated etc and just basically agreed that he needed to get on with it so that we could plan our lives.  I am deeply upset that he knows how much this will all hurt me and our relationship,when he was unemployed I essentially worked 7 days a week and made myself quite ill with stress etc.  When he got this job I was able to go back to 5-6 days a week and was able to deal with some bills etc which I am doing quite well with now.    If I could sit down and talk to him about it I would but he just can't see that he is the problem here, he is blaming everybody else and his attitude is that he's doing them a favor by working there! ?? this is what gets me, he acts like he could walk into another job in the morning! I can safely say given the economy, his age and his last occupation, if he doesn't work out at this job he will not get an opportunity to work again for a very very long time. 

I don't know who this arrogant selfish man is? - he used to get on with everybody -  now he is fighting with everybody and is the guy standing around doing nothing waiting for the lunch bell.  I'm really really taken aback by the change in him.  I can't see how to resolve this.

lilac - missed your post there.  I think he does want to be fired - that's why I'm so mad, he is just thinking about himself & not me - he knows how hard I already work yet he's prepared to sacrifice me in order to not do a job that he doesn't like.


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## Brendan Burgess (20 Feb 2012)

There is a whole forum on www.boards.ie devoted to relationships 

That might be a better forum.


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## bullwinkle (20 Feb 2012)

Brendan - thanks, I didn't post on boards.ie as I am a long term 'moocher' around askaboutmoney.  A lot of advice on boards.ie is a bit random, i'm hoping for more balanced opinions perhaps even just on the financial implications of his decision.

I hope thats okay


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## huskerdu (21 Feb 2012)

I have a lot of sympathy with you, you are in a rotten situation. Here is my advice. 

You have a number of different problems, and you are worried about all of them. This is not surprising, but you don't have the time, or emotional energy to be worried about everything, so its time to be selfish.

The only issues that are really important are your relationship and your families finances. Forget about everything else. 

Your friend did you a favour and you are embarrased that your husband is not pulling his weight. You have to temporarily forget about your friends feelings. Maybe your friend understands or will understand some day, but stop worrying about it now. 

Have you considered that your husband is suffering from depression ?  Fighting, arrogance, selfishness  all could be signs, especially if it is not normal behaviour. 

I think your next stop should be your GP to look for professional advice. You are right, you can't solve this on your own at the same time as being the only one taking on the burden of providing for your family.

I really wish you and your family the best.


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## Vanilla (21 Feb 2012)

bullwinkle said:


> I haven't told him yet that I know about last weeks meeting and all the other issues - he'll probably go nuts that I even know and blame my friend for telling me etc.
> 
> I'd really welcome any advice anyone could give to me - I'm afraid of either option at the moment.



Have you asked him for his side of this meeting?  Sounds like you're listening to your friend but not your husband?


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## bullwinkle (21 Feb 2012)

I did ask him and he pretty much confirmed that yes for the most part my friend was telling the truth.  His attitude is that he doesn't like the job - and will never like it.  The people are fine it's just the work he doesn't like.   He just seems to think that that's an end to it - he has mumbled something about trying a bit harder but to be honest I don't believe it for a second - it's a very half hearted effort to appease me.  I just gave up talking to be honest as it would just descend into a massive row if I said what I thought. i'm trying to take it all easy at the moment but I think i'm just afraid of the truth


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## elcato (21 Feb 2012)

> His attitude is that he doesn't like the job - and will never like it.  The people are fine it's just the work he doesn't like.


Then that's the problem, not him. I learned a long time ago that working in a job you hate is something to run a mile from. I think you need to actually look at his side of things here and forget about the friend who employed him as well.


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## Vanilla (21 Feb 2012)

Not to be cruel, but it doesn't sound much like you are 'on his side'. Surely it should be you and him versus the world, united? Otherwise, what's the point.

Everyone goes through periods of stress and even alienation from their spouse but you have to get through that. Money isn't everything but maybe your relationship should be.


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## elcato (21 Feb 2012)

I was trying to say what Vanilla just said only my language skills (or tact skills) were lacking. Your health is your wealth.


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## Ceist Beag (21 Feb 2012)

Vanilla said:


> Not to be cruel, but it doesn't sound much like you are 'on his side'. Surely it should be you and him versus the world, united? Otherwise, what's the point.
> 
> Everyone goes through periods of stress and even alienation from their spouse but you have to get through that. Money isn't everything but maybe your relationship should be.



+1 Vanilla. bullwinkle just take a step back from this for a minute and look at what is happening from a step removed. He obviously hates the job. It has now got so bad that he isn't even discussing work with you any more, so much so that he kept the meeting last week from you. So you're not even communicating properly any more. He is building up resentment over feeling forced to work this job, whilst you are obviously building up resentment over the fact you are working 6 days a week and feel he is not keeping up his side of things. Unless you can sit down and discuss an agreeable solution, where neither side feels pressurised into accepting something, then I fear it will only get worse. You should leave the money to one side when doing this as there is always a way of getting by, even if it means renegotiating your debt terms. But if sounds obvious from your posts that both sides are becoming a little bit entrenched in your separate views and you need to try and come back to working as a team - which means you need to hear and appreciate his side of things as well.


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## 44brendan (21 Feb 2012)

Very difficult to ignore money, when you are in financial difficulties. Job satisfaction is great, but for me family comes first. If I have to work in a job I dislike to feed & educate my family thats what has to be done. 
I acknowledge that we are only hearing one side of the story here, but OP appears to have identified a problem & optimum solution does not appear to be her spouse leaving this employment with no alternative income source apparent!!


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## csirl (21 Feb 2012)

Maybe you need to give him some hope for the future. He needs to be convinced that, even though he hates this job, that if he does it well, he'll get good references (particularly if the boss is your friend) which will help him get another job. This job is his ticket out of the situation. It appears that he regards the job as beneath him. If this is the case, he should be able to do it well and get out or at least get up the totem pole. You could offer to help him look for alternative employment in return for him doing a good job. I know the job situation is bad, but something will come up at some stage in the future.


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## bullwinkle (21 Feb 2012)

Thanks for replies.  He was unemployed for a long period of time and during this time I really had a difficult time with work and bills etc & my health suffered.  He was at home, going mad and swearing that if he even got a job cleaning he'd do it to help me in some way.  Now, he has this job with prospects, training and to be honest a lot of freedom & he thinks it might be better to be unemployed.  I know he doesn't like the job but I just feel like we ARE supposed to be a team, I have held up my side of the bargain by supporting him for years, now that he has a chance to support me and allow us to move on a bit he won't do it because he doesn't like it.  The other thing that is really annoying me is that all along I said to him just keeping looking for a job that you like, sending in CVS etc - my friend knew this and was quite happy to support him if he ever got another job in that he could get great reference and time off for interviews etc, he has never so much as looked at a job website or paper etc - I printed off his cvs for him and gave him a pile of them and he hasn't bothered once even looking   so it's not like this job was keeping him from getting another job.

I should really add that if it came down to it - I could manage like I did before to get enough money for us to survive, I guess my problem is that he is okay with me doing that - it seems that he's okay with me making myself ill by working so many hours while he doesn't work.


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## huskerdu (21 Feb 2012)

bullwinkle said:


> Thanks for replies.  He was unemployed for a long period of time and during this time I really had a difficult time with work and bills etc & my health suffered.  He was at home, going mad and swearing that if he even got a job cleaning he'd do it to help me in some way.  Now, he has this job with prospects, training and to be honest a lot of freedom & he thinks it might be better to be unemployed.  I know he doesn't like the job but I just feel like we ARE supposed to be a team, I have held up my side of the bargain by supporting him for years, now that he has a chance to support me and allow us to move on a bit he won't do it because he doesn't like it.  The other thing that is really annoying me is that all along I said to him just keeping looking for a job that you like, sending in CVS etc - my friend knew this and was quite happy to support him if he ever got another job in that he could get great reference and time off for interviews etc, he has never so much as looked at a job website or paper etc - I printed off his cvs for him and gave him a pile of them and he hasn't bothered once even looking   so it's not like this job was keeping him from getting another job.
> 
> I should really add that if it came down to it - I could manage like I did before to get enough money for us to survive, I guess my problem is that he is okay with me doing that - it seems that he's okay with me making myself ill by working so many hours while he doesn't work.



I dont expect you to answer this in a public forum, but I really, really think you need to talk to your GP about the possibility that your husband is suffering from depression, and ger advice about what to do about it.


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## Vanilla (21 Feb 2012)

I do empathise too and don't want to come across as being critical. The thing is that on a public forum random posters will come at your post with their own experience and, possibly, prejudice so you don't get objective informed advice.

Perhaps career advice for your husband from someone who can really guide him, maybe counselling for you two?


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## miss lilac (21 Feb 2012)

I hope this situation gets better for you, I really do. So many people in this country of ours are hurting now and are very desperate to try and pay bills etc....Are you on facebook by any chance? If so there is a wonderful facebook page set up by a girl called Tara O Grady - Home owners unite I think it is but it is a great site with wonderful links on it for people who are struggling and great support forum. Wishing you well and hope you like the page.


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## annR (22 Feb 2012)

It sounds to me that your husband is, mentally, in a very bad place, and this is going to get worse because now he will be back in the same situation as before, additionally with your resentment being more than it was before. 

I think his mental health needs to be addressed because without that he is going nowhere as you are seeing, and your relationship will suffer more because of not just the effect on your health but as you say, the effect on your perception of your husband.


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## irishmoss (22 Feb 2012)

The one thing that stuck out the most for me in this thread was the fact your friend told you about the confrontation in work/called him in. I know they held off for a while but surely if they are employing him this should be between them and him. For his own self worth, this should be the case. 
You mention he never appplied for any jobs since getting this one. Firstly you have to give him credit for re-training and giving this a go. But now he's realised he hates the new job so maybe he feels stuck in this new sector as you say his prospects for employment from his old job are slim to none. 
Is there any way he could look at other alternatives for retraining in the evenings perhaps? He needs to have some sort of hope for the future
Good luck and I hope it all works out for you.


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## bullwinkle (22 Feb 2012)

Thanks for the replies.  Re re-training firstly.  When unemployed he did re-train and retrained in this field.  At that time there was nothing he wanted to do more then this type of work which is why my friend started giving him some part time work.  That then went to full time work - once that happened he started saying that he doesn't want to do this kind of work anymore.  I keep asking him what he does actually want to do and he says he doesn't know.  Now, I have suggested that he keeps working to keep the bills paid as I do but does some evening training etc in another topic that would interest him - he has shot this down saying that it's too much to work and train.

So.... what to do? if he leaves work we will be in a bad way, no two ways about it - both our relationship and our finances.  

If he stays he will get increasingly worse

Re my friend - my friend has let everything slide for a long time.  She has been calling him in time and again for meetings and saying nothing to me (he told me the other night that he is called in every two weeks).  She spoke to me as she was just so worried at the thoughts of what to do - it had really become a problem for her, she didn't want to fire him but couldn't keep going the way she was.  She was at the end of her tether as well.


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## irishmoss (22 Feb 2012)

Maybe you are not getting the full story from him. If he did like the job before he went full time something has changed. He could well be depressed as others have stated here. 
I  think you should encourage him to apply for a new job, even in this current sector. While your friend has his best interests at heart and yours too it might be time to move on. He also needs to get his condidence back and maybe he is avoiding applying for new job in case of rejection. Being unemployed for a long time can't have done his confidence a lot of good.


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## putsch (22 Feb 2012)

And also you know different people are..........well..... different - a truism but......true.  You clearly have a really strong work ethic, lots of get up and go etc. But many, many people don't. They really, really don't. Many members of my own family are maddeningly passive and no amount of positive suggestion, printing off CVs etc is going to change them. In fact it really turns them off and is a niggle in the relationship. It would drive me crazy too. But as other posters have said you have to decide on priorities here - because he may well not change.

I would suggest some family guidance counselling e.g. http://www.accord.ie/marriage_and_relationship_counselling/FAQs/ - I don't think they are too directive religionwise and have sliding scale of costs.


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## truthseeker (22 Feb 2012)

OP I can totally see why you are so frustrated and annoyed but I do think that how you are speaking about and what you are saying about your husband shows a lack of respect and a failure to hear his point of view. His performance at work being discussed with you by the friend is bad form as well, youre not his mammy to be told he is being bold in work. 

I would hate it if my husband was telling me to just suck it up about a job I despised. I would just feel so demoralised that the one person I expected to support me was just barking orders at me with no consideration of how I felt. Equally I can understand that you want him to pull his weight in the relationship financially, and if he cant tolerate this job he needs to get his finger out and look for something else or consider retraining etc... 

I do think you both need to communicate without the anger and resentment.

Why is it just one person in the relationship who seems to be taking on all the feelings of responsibility towards earning money? Why is one person barking 'suck it up' orders at the other? Why is one person working themselves into illness? There is a total imbalance here and you cant be expected to shoulder all the weight of the problems.

I know it sounds totally mad, but could you write down all your issues with him in a letter (politely!) and get him to do the same, then go off and read them - that way you get to listen to him without butting in and vice versa? I think you need to find out whats fundamentally wrong with him that he is so changed and why this is happening. Maybe he is depressed, maybe he just is overwhelmed. 

A similar thing happened with my father in law in the 80s. Lost a great job, unemployed for months, his wife arranged a friend to give him work sweeping in a warehouse. He had a nervous breakdown. Loss of status can really hurt a man in the guts.


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## mark1 (22 Feb 2012)

truthseeker said:


> OP I know it sounds totally mad, but could you write down all your issues with him in a letter (politely!) and get him to do the same, then go off and read them - that way you get to listen to him without butting in and vice versa? I think you need to find out whats fundamentally wrong with him that he is so changed and why this is happening. Maybe he is depressed, maybe he just is overwhelmed.
> 
> A similar thing happened with my father in law in the 80s. Lost a great job, unemployed for months, his wife arranged a friend to give him work sweeping in a warehouse. He had a nervous breakdown. Loss of status can really hurt a man in the guts.


 
I think that letter idea is a really really good idea, I know we are in a similar situation but I am just so happy to be able to earn enough to provide for all of us, I dont work any less hours or have any less of a stressful time of it than you but as long as things at home are smooth i dont really care,There are times when i would feel as you do and I can understand the weight of responsibility you are feeling but i can also understand what it looks like from his point of view, Its A very difficult thing to accept that you have no worth from an employment point of view and i know i typed Cvs printed Cvs and thats as far as i could go, Looked on the internet for jobs but if you have a low self esteem its very hard to face someone for the fear of being rejected.  Its actually almost impossible to describe or put into words the fear. At Least if it is written down and you sit down to read it, it may make some kind of sense, hope things brighten up soon


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## bullwinkle (22 Feb 2012)

Thank you for all points of view. I can understand why I probably come across as a nag and somebody just thinking about myself. One thing I haven't mentioned that is really troubling me is the fact that for the past two years he has been at me and at me to have a child. Now, finances over the past two years didn't allow for this but now we are in a better place - or at least I thought we were. I worry now that even though he wants a baby so badly now- he might not be ready for it and I am worried that I'll end up trying to work and pay bills and not have any time to spend with a baby. It's all very confusing.  

Just to address the issue with my friend. She approached my husband numerous times and said nothing to me. Now with a number of fairly serious incidents in the last few weeks and him not seeming bothered (health and safety type issues) she just didn't know how to approach it any more and felt that I might be able to help. Right or wrong she genuinely has his best interests at heart- even he accepts this.

I understand that he may well have issues that need to be dealt with although he denies this and keeps pushing to start the family- my resistance to do this is causing more issues but I just feel that even though I'm ready he may not be!

What a mess 

I'm rambling a bit I know- I have been very calm when talking to him but inside I am mad as hell! I just want to get on with our lives together and I seem to spend a lot of my time making sure he is happy, little things like not asking him to do anything at weekends so he can relax, no housework, cooking etc- he can just chill out all weekend. It's exhausting keeping one person happy all the time and feeling like he doesnt care about me or my feelings.


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## terrysgirl33 (23 Feb 2012)

Is he pushing for a child so that he can legitimately give up work and look after the child full time?

If you can get him to look into getting help with his mental health then that may be the best solution.  If he is so keen to have a child, can you have a chat with him about what needs to be done first?  Such as he has to be in a job he's happy in?

If his work is a health and safety issue, then it sounds like he's going no-where.


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## SoylentGreen (23 Feb 2012)

Is it possible that you and he have over extended yourselves financially?  Maybe living in a larger house, with all mod cons, the cars, the lifestyle etc  When he was working these things could be afforded but not now.  Maybe he sees that you both need to downsize a little and maybe that you don't want to lose status amongst your peers?
Could ypu downsize, have a child and could he become a stay at home Dad?


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## terrysgirl33 (23 Feb 2012)

SoylentGreen said:


> Is it possible that you and he have over extended yourselves financially?  Maybe living in a larger house, with all mod cons, the cars, the lifestyle etc  When he was working these things could be afforded but not now.  Maybe he sees that you both need to downsize a little and maybe that you don't want to lose status amongst your peers?
> Could ypu downsize, have a child and could he become a stay at home Dad?



While this is certainly realistic and may be a good option, it can be hard to face the fact that you are having a child with no prospect of ever having a chance to spend a few years at home with the child, and not even able to use parental leave as you can't afford it financially.  Yes, it can be done, but maybe these issues need to be thought over too.  Especially as mothers, it is assumed that you will be able to spend time at home with the kids, and it can get wearing to explain to people that you can't take time off.  Mind you, this is the first child, by the third no-one really cares any more!


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## bullwinkle (23 Feb 2012)

SoylentGreen said:


> Is it possible that you and he have over extended yourselves financially?  Maybe living in a larger house, with all mod cons, the cars, the lifestyle etc  When he was working these things could be afforded but not now.  Maybe he sees that you both need to downsize a little and maybe that you don't want to lose status amongst your peers?
> Could ypu downsize, have a child and could he become a stay at home Dad?



Truly wish that was the case.  No, we have a small home, biggish mortgage, negative equity by at least €200,000 id say.  I drive a 2000 car, he drives a 2005 car.  No luxury by any stretch - no status issues.  I feel that yes he might like to be a stay at home dad and I guess I feel a little bit hard done by at this.  I have spent a long time working and working very hard in order to pay debts etc (a lot of them his) and I feel i deserve to perhaps take some time off myself and relax a bit with a child.  He now wants that role as well!  yes everybody is right I feel resentment at the moment and that's something I need to deal with.


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## truthseeker (23 Feb 2012)

bullwinkle said:


> I'm rambling a bit I know- I have been very calm when talking to him but inside I am mad as hell! I just want to get on with our lives together and I seem to spend a lot of my time making sure he is happy, little things like not asking him to do anything at weekends so he can relax, no housework, cooking etc- he can just chill out all weekend. It's exhausting keeping one person happy all the time and feeling like he doesnt care about me or my feelings.



Are you doing too much for him? It can be very hard to stand on your own two feet when someone else is always propping you up!! Have you considered that you are putting him in the 'i need to mind and direct him' role and yourself in the 'im the responsible one who takes charge' role? Sometimes in situations like that the person in the being minded role just stops bothering because (a) they never get a chance to take charge because the other person is always so on the ball that its already done, and (b) even if they did manage to take charge, itd be criticised by the person who is in control - so they stop bothering.

I just wonder are you trying to make him behave in ways that YOU want him to behave (understandable ways btw!), but ultimately, as you cant ever control someone elses behaviour you are just ending up frustrated that he is not doing what you want.

I wonder what his take on things really is? If he had a thread what would it say? 

You have loads of resentment, and he likely does too, the problem sounds like its deeper than just the recent events around his attitude to the job.

Would he consider couples counselling, would you?


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## SoylentGreen (23 Feb 2012)

I know someone who works as a relationship counsellor in an association mentioned above. God help any person who is counselled by this person. They have no proper qualifications and their own life is far from perfect although they believe that it is.


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## elcato (23 Feb 2012)

> They have no proper qualifications and their own life is far from perfect although they believe that it is.


In most cases the problem can be obvious to anyone not involved but not to those within so I wouldn't take the mess their own life is in as a marker.


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## SlugBreath (24 Feb 2012)

SoylentGreen said:


> I know someone who works as a relationship counsellor in an association mentioned above. God help any person who is counselled by this person. They have no proper qualifications and their own life is far from perfect although they believe that it is.


 
I heard about someone who had to listen to the counsellor talking about their new garden, curtains, holiday etc as if the counsellor's way of life was perfect. 

Bullwinkle, does your husband prepare meals, deal with house cleaning, laundry, shopping etc


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## bullwinkle (5 Mar 2012)

Just to update this one - he quit work last week! I don't quite know what to do - he is sitting at home, doesn't have any plan yet to go looking for work etc.  I guess I'll be waiting this one out to see what he does.


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## Ceist Beag (5 Mar 2012)

bullwinkle it still sounds very much "I this and he that". Is there any acknowledgement between the both of you that communications between you are not really working? Is there any sense that you either need to get some outside help, or to try and resolve this yourselves? As truthseeker showed, if verbal communication isn't working, maybe try other approaches such as the letter idea. But before you work together to get out of this, you need to be able to communicate with each other openly and honestly.


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## 44brendan (5 Mar 2012)

"waiting this one out" is unlikely to lead to an improvement! You need to make a decision on how you are going to address this, or at least how long you are preapred to wait!


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## bullwinkle (5 Mar 2012)

I am trying to communicate - we always communicated well.  But the problem is that he doesn't have a plan and if I say to him well what will we do, or what do you want to do? or do you have anything in mind that you'd like to train in.... he just shrugs his shoulders and says "don't know".  So I can't help him until I know what he wants to do -otherwise it's just me nagging and nagging telling him what he should be doing and I don't want to do that! So.... I am waiting until he can tell me what he wants


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## bullwinkle (5 Mar 2012)

44brendan said:


> "waiting this one out" is unlikely to lead to an improvement! You need to make a decision on how you are going to address this, or at least how long you are preapred to wait!



Unfortunately I agree! but unless he can tell me how he wants to proceed then I am stuck!


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## Firefly (5 Mar 2012)

bullwinkle said:


> Thank you for all points of view. I can understand why I probably come across as a nag and somebody just thinking about myself.* One thing I haven't mentioned that is really troubling me is the fact that for the past two years he has been at me and at me to have a child*. Now, finances over the past two years didn't allow for this but now we are in a better place - or at least I thought we were. I worry now that even though he wants a baby so badly now- he might not be ready for it and I am worried that I'll end up trying to work and pay bills and not have any time to spend with a baby. It's all very confusing.


 
Hi Bullwinkle and sorry for your predicament.

Have you spoken about why he wants a child so much? There are probably valid reasons, but I note from your first post that, before this current job, he has been unemployed for a long period of time. It sounds to me, (and I'm no marriage councillor), that perhaps having a child will enable him to be a stay-at-home Dad. Nothing wrong with that of course, but maybe that's a way for him to avoid going back to work. Apologies if this causes any offense as I obviously do not know you nor your husband...just what came to mind when linking the comment above with your first post.

Firefly.


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## bullwinkle (5 Mar 2012)

Firefly said:


> Hi Bullwinkle and sorry for your predicament.
> 
> Have you spoken about why he wants a child so much? There are probably valid reasons, but I note from your first post that, before this current job, he has been unemployed for a long period of time. It sounds to me, (and I'm no marriage councillor), that perhaps having a child will enable him to be a stay-at-home Dad. Nothing wrong with that of course, but maybe that's a way for him to avoid going back to work. Apologies if this causes any offense as I obviously do not know you nor your husband...just what came to mind when linking the comment above with your first post.
> 
> Firefly.




Indeed, I have been thinking this myself but the reality is that without a second income it is going to be very difficult for us to have a child.  Our house is quite old and needs a lot of work done to it - practical things like plumbing - insulation etc and all of that had been planned for this year so that we could go ahead and start the family etc.    He knew the money situation was already tight enough.


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## dmos87 (5 Mar 2012)

You mention in your posts that you take care of the housekeeping, meals, etc. 

As your partner has now taken the decision to be at home, advise him that it is now his responsibility to take care of the housekeeping, washing, cooking, and everything else that comes with it until he gets a job. At least that will take some of the stress off your shoulders for now. 

Sit down with him this evening and tell him you are proud of him for leaving a job he was unhappy in, and that you understand his decision even though you might not agree with it. Tell him you hope it helps him to be happier, and that all you want is for him to be happy. Tell him that you need his support in keeping your family afloat, and that means taking care of the house so you have one less worry. Be honest with him by saying you are not comfortable starting a family with the debt that you are currently working so hard to clear, and that once this is resolved you would love to start a family with him. This last point might motivate him to find work.

You need to ask him to please be open with you on how he was and is feeling. Try and put yourself in his shoes when he is explaining his feelings, however frustrating it may be. You both need to discuss his options for the future - and there are plenty! You need to encourage him, that will do wonders for his confidence. 

I am not a counsellor of any sorts, but you two have communication issues. It seems to me that somewhere along the line of being supportive you have begun "controlling" him in ways - and this is not your fault, it has simply happened. From an outsider looking in, him quitting the job was his way of taking some of that control back.


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## Plek Trum (8 Mar 2012)

If its any consolation, I imagine your story is a very similar one to many households around the country at the minute.

For what its worth, I would recommend approaching this from a different perspective perhaps (hard to put your frustrations to one side I know but bear with me!)  I imagine your husband is feeling lost, under valued, somewhat depressed and wondering 'how did it all go wrong?'.  In order to prise him our of this predicament you may have to encourage, help and guide him until he comes up to speed and feels motivated again.

Pick up the book 'What Colour is Your Parachute', have a read yourself for first few chapters and then recommend it to him as a start to 'getting his life back'  Be patient, do not place demans or deadlines but let him know that as a team, you really need him with you so you can get back on track together and then, hopefuly in time, consdier starting your family.

Also, please check out volunteer groups in your area - local Education Services are always looking for Volunteer Tutors to help with literacy classes.  Try also googling 'Volunteer Ireland' or similar (as I dont know where you are I cant be more specific)  

Volunteer work in the interim may just give him the sense of self worth that he needs to break out of this cycle, plus its a committment which will hopefully instigate the changes needed.  Who knows where it may take him, he may discover a new area of interest that he hadn't explored previiously and help make changes to the lives of others along the way.  Also its a great reference source for when that job does come along.

Patience, encouragement and a sense of wanting to improve his situation 'together'.
Hope it all works out, let us know.


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## bullwinkle (8 Mar 2012)

Here's the thing now - He seems really chilled out and happy over the last week which is good for him.  Meanwhile, I'm working out budget plans, trying to get extra work sorted which means this week i'll be working 6.5 days, i'll have Sunday evening off.  He is acting like we haven't a care in the world.  I must admit I am struggling to hold my temper at the moment and grateful that I have this extra work to keep me away from the house - it's just so frustrating.  I have cancelled four very important things which I had planned over the next few months as I don't have the money now to go ahead and do them.  I have also cancelled a course which I was due to take, I had put it off when he was unemployed before and had rearranged to start in March - can't afford this one now either.  I am waiting for him to decide what he wants to do, job wise/training wise etc but at the moment he is at home making dinner just happy out!   I am trying the softly softly supportive attitude but the more gentle I am the lazier he appears to be getting.  

I do believe he may be depressed or something - it's the only thing I can think of to explain it -I mentioned to him that he might be depressed , he completely denied it - won't hear of seeing somebody & thinks I am completely off my head & he thinks I'm completely over reacting.  In his mind, he lost the job and he is telling everybody that he they had to let him go - last in first out (i'm going along with him when he tells people this, even though he has admitted to me that he knows he lost it over attitude/laziness etc) .  

And so we trudge on.........


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## truthseeker (8 Mar 2012)

bullwinkle said:


> Here's the thing now - He seems really chilled out and happy over the last week which is good for him.  Meanwhile, I'm working out budget plans, trying to get extra work sorted which means this week i'll be working 6.5 days, i'll have Sunday evening off.



And what is his attitude/response to this? Does he notice all the time you are working? I think you are mad. You are one person. Work a 5 day week and let him deal with the financial consequences as well.



bullwinkle said:


> He is acting like we haven't a care in the world.  I must admit I am struggling to hold my temper at the moment and grateful that I have this extra work to keep me away from the house - it's just so frustrating.  I have cancelled four very important things which I had planned over the next few months as I don't have the money now to go ahead and do them.  I have also cancelled a course which I was due to take, I had put it off when he was unemployed before and had rearranged to start in March - can't afford this one now either.



And what does he say about all of this?



bullwinkle said:


> I do believe he may be depressed or something - it's the only thing I can think of to explain it -I mentioned to him that he might be depressed , he completely denied it - won't hear of seeing somebody & thinks I am completely off my head & he thinks I'm completely over reacting.



Sounds like he is swimming in a river in Egypt.



bullwinkle said:


> In his mind, he lost the job and he is telling everybody that he they had to let him go - last in first out (i'm going along with him when he tells people this, even though he has admitted to me that he knows he lost it over attitude/laziness etc) .



More evidence for swimming in a river in Egypt.

You may have to make some hard decisions, there is only so much a reasonable person can put up with. Plus, you will make yourself sick if you keep overworking.


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## Knuttell (8 Mar 2012)

To be perfectly blunt your husband is a lazy, self centred so and so,there is no two ways about this,you have enabled him in this behaviour and allowed him to to walk all over you,there are thousands who would give their right arm to have a job yet he treats those who offered a helping hand with contemptible ingratitude.  

In every workforce up and down the Country there are individuals who swing the lead and leave others pick up the slack,these people are universally despised by their put upon colleagues.

I feel for you as you are running the show and getting no support whatsoever from this "man",you have two choices,continue as you are on a never ending ritual of being saddled up and doing the work of two until resentment turns to passive hatred or give him an ultimatum,either he shapes up or he ships out,to be honest knowing the type he may engage with the process for a while but will slip back into his old lazy useless ways pretty quickly.

Frankly if it were me,this individual would be long long gone.


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## WaterWater (9 Mar 2012)

Knuttell said:


> In every workforce up and down the Country there are individuals who swing the lead and leave others pick up the slack,these people are universally despised by their put upon colleagues.


 
I knew a manager who tried to deal with a person like this and ended up have a bullying complaint made against him.

Bullwinkle. Just work your 5 day week. I am curious to know what were your four very important things that you had planned to do over the coming months. Did any of these things involve your husband.


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## nai (9 Mar 2012)

OP - maybe I missed it but I can't recall you stating what type of profession your husband worked at previously. 

Can you outline what type of profession it was and also what type of skill set / interests your husband has ?

Perhaps the aam community may be able to suggest some direction.

Reason I ask is that I know a large number of people cross skilling into IT related courses under some of the social welfare schemes while also remaining in receipt of their dole. Difference is that they will be coming out of college in a year or two with Post grad diploma / Masters in a Computing related discipline. (i know a lot of them because I'm lecturing some part-time) These students backgrounds are very varied but their futures should be pretty assured given the severe shortage of IT skills in Ireland.


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## bullwinkle (9 Mar 2012)

WaterWater said:


> Did any of these things involve your husband.



Yes 3 out of 4 did - basically family trips & things that had previously been put off because of his unemployment.  

Truthseeker - this is the thing he is not reacting to any of it, he is hymming and hawing etc but not actually giving me any feedback on any of it.    He IS being lazy git, people are right but at the same time I know there is an underlying unhappiness that he has to deal with.  Truth is if we are not married I would be gone by now as realistically I am young enough to make a new life for myself but I do take the marriage seriously and cannot just up and leave.  I have to give it my best shot and know that all routes were explored.    It is going to take a lot of work on his side to make things right here, at the moment all I can do is deal with the practical things and see to it that we pay bills and eat.  

I feel in hindsight that a lot of all of this is my fault  - I have dealt with all the responsibilities throughout our lives, I have kept him wrapped up and away from the hassles and now he expects me to get us through this one as well.  I need to make him stand on his own two feet.


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## truthseeker (9 Mar 2012)

bullwinkle said:


> Truth is if we are not married I would be gone by now as realistically I am young enough to make a new life for myself but I do take the marriage seriously and cannot just up and leave.



You could suggest you separate for a period of time while you have a think about things. He would be forced into standing on his own two feet then. 

Whatever else happens, stop taking responsibility for everything right now, you are only enabling it still - stop working mad long weeks etc..


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## bullwinkle (9 Mar 2012)

truthseeker said:


> He would be forced into standing on his own two feet then. .



Doubtful  - he'd head back to live with Mammy who never wanted him to leave in the first place.


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## Bronte (9 Mar 2012)

Knuttell said:


> To be perfectly blunt your husband is a lazy, self centred so and so,there is no two ways about this,you have enabled him in this behaviour and allowed him to to walk all over you,.


 
I fully agree with Knuttell. From what you've described so far your husband sounds like a 'bum' as Judge Judy would say.

You've posted some very very personal stuff on here. And we do not have his side of the story. There are times in every marriage when one is hopping mad, but you have to talk to each other and resolve it. And both agree. 

You and your other half need conselling or you need to come to the realisation that you cannot change another person. And that there are two of you in it. 

On financials

Why are you stretched so financially that even with two jobs it's hard to manage. Did you push for the house, the renovations etc (this is not necessarily a negative thing). 

Your other half doesn't seem to give a damn about bills because you've completely taken control of that, so why would he worry or care?

You have drive and ambition, either you live with that and accept that he does not.

How many years was he unemployed and in what period while you supported him. Why was he unemployed. 

Finally, maybe your marriage has ended and it requires the courage to face up to that. This I do not say lightly, but it certainly has to be said before the big mistake of having a child comes into it.  You've not said one thing positive about your husband.  Is there anything good about him, why did you marry him?

I don't expect you to answer these questions, there more for you to think about.  What is it you see in him, what do you want and if it's not possible let it go.


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## bullwinkle (9 Mar 2012)

There's a lot there Bronte so i'll try to answer.

Re being stretched all ready - we bought a near derelict house and had to take on a loan just to get the basics done.  About 2/3 years in, he lost his job (company went bust).  

Re us - we have always been two very very different people but somehow that never mattered - I am a very independent person & I get things done, he is not independent - never really was but it was never a problem before because he went to work, contributed to the house/money etc & it all ran very well.  This man now - is not the man I married!.  The man I married was great fun, very kind, yes he was a bit of a spoiled brat at times but I didn't pay any heed to that!  He still is that kind loving man but at the moment he is weighed down with something else?? I don't know - perhaps a combination of me doing everything for him and depression or something?? 

I love him, I really do (the problem is I don't have the same level of respect for him)  and I feel awful having to post online about such personal issues but I guess I don't want to speak to friends about it. It's very tough at the moment, I feel as though I am being held back from life at the moment there are so many things I want to do but I have to help him over all of this.  Two weeks ago when I first posted I think I was on the verge of walking away, now that the dust has settled I feel I need to give this one more go.  In many ways I feel so sorry for him I think he is wasting a great life - the practical part of me though wants to kick him up the a**e as people have suggested.   I may well have to accept that it's over - I don't know! I hope not I really really hope not!


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## Bronte (9 Mar 2012)

You're very contradictory in your description.  So he was a good man, he worked hard, was happy, you both were happy but he lost his job 2 years ago.  But then you say he was a spoiled brat.  

Anyway I've immense sympathy for anyone who worked hard and lost a job they loved.  Times are very tough and we have to be understanding of our partners.  Good times and bad is what marriage is for.  Not a marriage counsellor, but you must look at yourself too and see are your expectations too much for any man.


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## 44brendan (9 Mar 2012)

> Times are very tough and we have to be understanding of our partners. Good times and bad is what marriage is for. Not a marriage counsellor, but you must look at yourself too and see are your expectations too much for any man.


 
Full credit to you for putting up with this so far. We all have our problems, but we also have our limitations. Your expectation appears to be for this guy to get his act together and contribute to the household income. If he is unable to do so, that's one issue. However, he has blown a good opportunity to get back on his feet. I'm all for giving people a chance, but how far are you prepared to go with this. Send him back to Mammy and let her look after him for a while. Give yourself some space to re-think the relationship. Leave the door open for him, if he is prepared to get his act together. You are not his mother. If you want to take that role, then be prepared to accept the consequences.


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## Hans (9 Mar 2012)

bullwinkle said:


> I am trying to communicate - we always communicated well.  But the problem is that he doesn't have a plan and if I say to him well what will we do, or what do you want to do? or do you have anything in mind that you'd like to train in.... he just shrugs his shoulders and says "don't know".  So I can't help him until I know what he wants to do -otherwise it's just me nagging and nagging telling him what he should be doing and I don't want to do that! So.... I am waiting until he can tell me what he wants


I think you have hit the 'nail on the head' when you say you are trying to communicate, you really need to talk to a counselor I know some posters had bad things to say about counselors but that is silly it's like people having an opinion on a good doctor or hairdresser you shop around until you get one that suits you. You will be surprised at the help that you will get from one as they will facilitate the conversation between you and your husband and make sure you are asking the right questions and keeping to the point when you are talking about decisions a good counselor wont give you the answers but will guide you to find them together and also leave your relationship stronger after the process. Lay people here can give you advice about what to say and do but you are the only person that can do that. To save your relationship at this stage you need professional help not advice from lay people. It is a shame to let it crumble without getting help if you or your husband were physically sick you would not ask here for help but find a professional that could help you.


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## bullwinkle (9 Mar 2012)

Bronte said:


> You're very contradictory in your description.  So he was a good man, he worked hard, was happy, you both were happy but he lost his job 2 years ago.  But then you say he was a spoiled brat.



At times yes he was a spoiled brat - I knew that when I met him! it's hard not to be contradictory Bronte - there have been good times as well as bad times - i'm trying to give a summary of a relationship spanning 14 years so there are bound to be contradictions.


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## dmos87 (9 Mar 2012)

My heart is breaking for you Bullwinkle, it sounds like you are clinging on by the fingernails. Please please, for your own wellbeing, do not work that much. You will put yourself in an early grave with a combination of the stress and workload. Marriage is a partnership, and as of right now you are without a partner. 

You need to go home and have an honest chat with your husband. Tell him how you are feeling - and I mean how you are feeling about your marriage. Is he aware you were almost ready to walk away two weeks ago? Sometimes it takes a shock to the system to get people motivated again. 

Lay it all out on the table, with no deadlines. Tell him to go to Mammy for a few days to think things through and get a clear head, and you do the same in the peace of your home that you are working so hard for. 

No-one here is going to give you the answers. We are not counsellors, nor are we involved in your marriage. Go home to your husband and talk things through properly and tell him how alone you are feeling in it. Tell him how hurt and angry you are that he has not considered you in his decisions.


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## truthseeker (9 Mar 2012)

bullwinkle said:


> At times yes he was a spoiled brat - I knew that when I met him! it's hard not to be contradictory Bronte - there have been good times as well as bad times - i'm trying to give a summary of a relationship spanning 14 years so there are bound to be contradictions.



Did you ever face a difficult period in those 14 years where he wasnt working, or in a job he didnt like etc... or is this the first time that you have seen this side of him - by this side of him I mean the guy who dilly dallying about not engaging with no plan for the future?

On some of the other issues - did he really go straight from Mammy to you - he never lived independently? He had Mammy looking after him, then he had Bullwinkle looking after him?

On buying the house etc...who was the driving force, did he come to you saying 'Ive seen this great house that we could do up' etc.... Even though a couple may agree on plans there is often one person who drives it more. If you can look back at 14 years and it turns out you are more often the driver - then it may be that he just doesnt know how to get up and start driving (as it were).


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## bullwinkle (9 Mar 2012)

truthseeker said:


> Did you ever face a difficult period in those 14 years where he wasnt working, or in a job he didnt like etc... or is this the first time that you have seen this side of him - by this side of him I mean the guy who dilly dallying about not engaging with no plan for the future?



No you are quite right, we had no really tough issues like unemployment etc to deal with for the first 10 years.  



truthseeker said:


> On some of the other issues - did he really go straight from Mammy to you - he never lived independently? He had Mammy looking after him, then he had Bullwinkle looking after him?



Yes, moved out of home and we rented a house for few years then bought. 




truthseeker said:


> On buying the house etc...who was the driving force, did he come to you saying 'Ive seen this great house that we could do up' etc.... Even though a couple may agree on plans there is often one person who drives it more. If you can look back at 14 years and it turns out you are more often the driver - then it may be that he just doesnt know how to get up and start driving (as it were).



Again spot on - I would have been the driving force.  He wanted a house as well but I think really when it came down to it it was me who went out & organised mortgage/legal stuff etc etc.    And yes I am definitely the driver but I have tried very hard not to be over the years, I would have loved him to 'take control' on many occasions and asked him to do so but he always shys away from pressure etc so it's usually just down to me to deal with.  He wouldn't have great coping skills neither would his parents and family - they tend to go to pieces if there is any hassle/hardship and somehow they always blame somebody else for their problems, they are always victims in their own minds and he & his sisters would be very much like them.


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## bullwinkle (9 Mar 2012)

dmos87 said:


> Tell him how hurt and angry you are that he has not considered you in his decisions.



Thank you - I actually have done this but so far I am not getting much of a reaction.  He is mumbling sorrys etc but I don't think he quite understands what has happened if you know what I mean - it's like it hasn't hit him.


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## truthseeker (9 Mar 2012)

Alright Bullwinkle, based on your posts on this thread and responses to what people have asked you, Im sorry to tell you - you cant make someone be the person you want them to be. You cannot control another persons behaviour, you can only control your own.

You say that you have always been the driving force, he has a tendency to go to pieces, you have always been the organiser, he has never even lived independently etc and now, after 14 years, you want him to be a different person. It actually sounds like he is being the same person as the person you married, it was just that his behaviour wasnt having a negative impact on you before and now it is so you want him to change.

But you cant change someone that way. A person can change, but it has to come from within. And a lot of the time, people dont change all that much.

For your own sanity and happiness, you either need to get out of the situation and move on yourself, or come to an acceptance that your expectations will not be met by this person, when the chips are down he expects you to be in control. Thats the tone thats been set all along.


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## Knuttell (9 Mar 2012)

bullwinkle said:


> it's like it hasn't hit him.



That would be because* it hasn't hit him at all*,as usual its someone else who takes the hit...*you* on this occasion as the sole provider.

He is at home all day long watching cash in the attic or Dr Phil when you are up at the crack of dawn working 7 days a week.

I take it that because he jacked in the job that he is not entitled to SW?given the straitened times we live in anyone who jacks in a job shouldn't get a red cent from the SW ever.

I know of a friend of my sister who is a fully qualified solicitor who is waiting on tables in a city centre restaurant,he just puts the head down and gets on with it,I admire people like him,he has a wife and young child and nothing gets him down,he sees there is a positive in any situation no matter how bleak.


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## bullwinkle (9 Mar 2012)

Knuttell said:


> ?given the straitened times we live in anyone who jacks in a job shouldn't get a red cent from the SW ever.



Couldn't agree more and no he would not be entitled to any sw anyway.  When he was unemployed before, he was cut off before the year and didn't qualify for anything due to my earnings after that.


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## gillarosa (9 Mar 2012)

Again spot on - I would have been the driving force. He wanted a house as well but I think really when it came down to it it was me who went out & organised mortgage/legal stuff etc etc. And yes I am definitely the driver but I have tried very hard not to be over the years,  I would have loved him to 'take control' on many occasions and asked him to do so but he always shys away from pressure etc so it's usually just down to me to deal with. He wouldn't have great coping skills neither would his parents and family - they tend to go to pieces if there is any hassle/hardship and somehow they always blame somebody else for their problems, they are always victims in their own minds and he & his sisters would be very much like them.[/QUOTE]

This is the nub of the matter, your Partner has been nurtured in his passive aggressive personality from birth. In this one issue you started this thread about he has achieved his aim, is sitty pretty at home and you are tearing your hair out but nevertheless facilitating it. Fourteen years into your relationship you need to learn how to cope with (not manage) his personality type. Neither of you are right or wrong, is it possible you may have been attracted to one another because he wanted to be managed and you wanted someone to manage? but now the problem has become unmanageable due to outside factors (finances and your reputation with your friend) and you have hit a wall. its difficult for you I know, but I'd recommend you read up on it as much as possible.


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## Firefly (9 Mar 2012)

OP, If you don't mind me saying so, I think you have married a lazy Mammy's Boy who is used to having everything done for him. How you lasted 14 years is as much a problem with you as it is with him though. Working 6+ days a week is only feeding his habit and the first thing I would do is "drop back" to 5 days a week.

There are plenty of couples (usually with kids, granted) who decide it's the best if one of them stays at home (as in our own case until recently). However, this is not the case here. He seems quite happy for you to go out and work whilst he has a great old time! For someone keen on starting a family, I'm not sure if this is the best example to be giving kids either. He does seem to have the life of Reilly to be honest!

Given that you've been together for 14 years I don't suspect there is a quick remedy for this though and you may be best to seek professional advice.

Keep a cool head if you can though and write down all of the things that are bothering you (you've provided enough here already to cover most of it (I'd hope!). I'd then sit him down and work through them. In no uncertain terms I would convey to him that you are nearing the end of your thether (as you already posted) and that unless things change you will have to think about your own future together. 

Firefly.


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## Knuttell (9 Mar 2012)

bullwinkle said:


> I drive a 2000 car, he drives a 2005 car.



You are working waaay to hard to be running two cars (tax,insurance,services.petrol) while he sits round the house all day,get rid of the 00D and take his 05D car,then look very hard at your finances in particular stuff like Sky television etc,perhaps post in the money makeover section?

The loss of a few luxuries may steel his resolve somewhat,at the very least it will ease the burden of carrying a grown man around on your back 24/7.


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## SoylentGreen (10 Mar 2012)

Is it the fact that he is putting pressure on you to have a child the cause of all this and you have fears about it?


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