# Child care  fees to be reduced by 25%



## Brendan Burgess (27 Sep 2022)

€2,100 a year to be put back in the pockets of parents


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## Black_Knight (27 Sep 2022)

Curious how? Bumping the 50c per hour subsidy to something useful? 

I can only imagine the means tested will reap the most from this, and ultimately it will mean little to me and my €1500 a month crèche fee


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## Pugmister (27 Sep 2022)

Does absolutely zilch for parents who have been forced into the childminder black market due to Lack of creche places available in Dublin. We tried 25 creches and most likely wont get a space until 2024 at this point, so are now paying €550 a week to a childminder.

This scheme only extends to Tusla registered minders of which i believe there are less than 100 nationwide.


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## DublinHead54 (27 Sep 2022)

Black_Knight said:


> Curious how? Bumping the 50c per hour subsidy to something useful?
> 
> I can only imagine the means tested will reap the most from this, and ultimately it will mean little to me and my €1500 a month crèche fee



It isn't means tested so it should help you.

Currently the non means tested support is €0.5 X 45 hours pw X 4 weeks = €90 saving per month.  Post this change it should reduce your crèche fee by an additional €160 per month(€1.4 X 45 X 4).


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## circle (27 Sep 2022)

Note that since the end of August, the NCS universal supplement also applies to the hours not covered by ECCE for preschoolers, and to afterschool services for under 12s, so this helps a lot more people. The €2,100 annual saving mentioned in the budget is based on the saving for one pre-ECCE child (ECCE starts the Sep after they are 2 years 8 months).

NCS contribution are now:
Pre-Ecce: 45 hours * 1.4 * 4.3 = €270.9 / month
ECCE: 35 hours (Creche open for 50, 15 covered by ECCE) * 1.4 * 4.3: €210.7 / month
Afterschool: 20 hours * 1.4 * 4.3 = €120.4 / month


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## Black_Knight (27 Sep 2022)

Any mention of when this might come into play?


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## rustbucket (27 Sep 2022)

Black_Knight said:


> Any mention of when this might come into play?


Probably the same time as an industry price hike due to rising costs of running it. Net effect zero


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## Itchy (27 Sep 2022)

Pugmister said:


> Does absolutely zilch for parents who have been forced into the childminder black market due to Lack of creche places available in Dublin. We tried 25 creches and most likely wont get a space until 2024 at this point, so are now paying €550 a week to a childminder.
> 
> This scheme only extends to Tusla registered minders of which i believe there are less than 100 nationwide.



Minister for Children said they would assist childminders to register. A scheme will be in place by the end of next year   

This measure is clearly kettling parents towards institutional childcare, instead of placing the choice with parents. They really could have brought a large swath of the industry into the tax net with a more considered approach. Similar to the extended Free GP card, they have massively increased demand without addressing the supply side. Very disappointing overall.


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## circle (27 Sep 2022)

Black_Knight said:


> Any mention of when this might come into play?


The increase from .5 to 1.4 per hour comes in in January.

I think they have managed this quite well - the grant system for childcare providers was based on them signing up not to increase fee this year. Now with the ncs system in place, it’s easy to increase funding.

I know it seems unfair to people who have chosen (or been forced by lack of another option) nannies or unlicensed childminders, but I can’t see how the state can fund childcare that isn’t being assessed by Túsla.


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## Itchy (27 Sep 2022)

circle said:


> I know it seems unfair to people who have chosen (or been forced by lack of another option) nannies or unlicensed childminders, but I can’t see how the state can fund childcare that isn’t being assessed by Túsla.



They already provide tax relief for childcare service providers without Túsla registration but do require HSE notification. 






						Childcare services
					

This page explains how to claim childcare services relief each year if you provide childminding services in your own home




					www.revenue.ie


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## circle (27 Sep 2022)

Itchy said:


> They already provide tax relief for childcare service providers without Túsla registration but do require HSE notification.


True, but if they don't register with túsla, parents won't get NCS funding to use them. 

Very few childminders have registered, hopefully more will be encouraged to as we need more quality childcare places!


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## GAAmam (28 Sep 2022)

This also does nothing for me that employs a minder (Nanny) to come to our home.

Funnelling practically all investment into institutional childcare discriminates (possible indirectly) against those who work part-time, those who do shift work, term-time work, travel abroad/long distance for work and those who have more than 2 children close in age.
Nothing really has been done to increase supply so the new measures are going to exacerbate a two tier system.

Creches and childminders charge per child and it can work out cheaper/less hassle to employ a Nanny with 2+ kids.

No creche close to where I live:
a) have availability
b) cater for under 1's
c) allow a term-time or part-time option
d) Are open before 8am or after 6pm weekdays or weekends (not that I want to drag the kids out of bed before 7am)
e) Provide a sibling discount, - even with the new Government subvention the fees with 2+ kids is unaffordable for most
f) Provide an afterschool option for school going kids

I employ a Nanny, pay her PRSI and USC and that is her job. It would be much better for me to get a tax break, even at the lower bracket, as currently I am paying her salary out of my Net salary.


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## Purple (29 Sep 2022)

Itchy said:


> Similar to the extended Free GP card, they have massively increased demand without addressing the supply side. Very disappointing overall.


Is there a shortage of training places in childcare?
We train more doctors than any other country in the world so there's no supply side shortage there.


Itchy said:


> They really could have brought a large swath of the industry into the tax net with a more considered approach.


What do you think they should have done instead?


Pugmister said:


> Does absolutely zilch for parents who have been forced into the childminder black market due to Lack of creche places available in Dublin.


More funding should result in more places. 


Pugmister said:


> We tried 25 creches and most likely wont get a space until 2024 at this point, so are now paying €550 a week to a childminder.


Wow, is that for one child? Are they in your home or do you drop the child(ren) to theirs?


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## Itchy (29 Sep 2022)

Purple said:


> Is there a shortage of training places in childcare?
> We train more doctors than any other country in the world so there's no supply side shortage there.



Its the distribution of practicing GPs. Very difficult to get on a list in my area, and can be up to a week delay to get seen (in my case). We know providing free access will increase the number of GP visits which will exacerbate the problem in the short term.



Purple said:


> What do you think they should have done instead?



Facilitate parents by allowing them to claim from the NCS directly or provide the child's PPS to the minder for them to claim from the NCS. Institutional childcare is massively inflexible and is a 'one size fits all' approach. 

I would suggest the design of the system is more a sectoral support than a parent-orientated scheme. The big plus for the government is that they have the headline 'reduced costs' and will likely increase the demand in the sector, increasing wages. It's can be an inferior product though, IMO. Subsidising the parents rather the sector would ensure than the most suitable/individual solution could be obtained and the sector would adjust, rather than artificially inflating the sector.


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## Purple (29 Sep 2022)

Itchy said:


> Its the distribution of practicing GPs. Very difficult to get on a list in my area, and can be up to a week delay to get seen (in my case). We know providing free access will increase the number of GP visits which will exacerbate the problem in the short term.


True, but there are lots of GP's. Lots of them just choose to work part time for various reasons. 


Itchy said:


> Facilitate parents by allowing them to claim from the NCS directly or provide the child's PPS to the minder for them to claim from the NCS. Institutional childcare is massively inflexible and is a 'one size fits all' approach.


Great idea. 


Itchy said:


> I would suggest the design of the system is more a sectoral support than a parent-orientated scheme. The big plus for the government is that they have the headline 'reduced costs' and will likely increase the demand in the sector, increasing wages. It's can be an inferior product though, IMO. Subsidising the parents rather the sector would ensure than the most suitable/individual solution could be obtained and the sector would adjust, rather than artificially inflating the sector.


A tax credit per child would also allow parents to make their own choices in this area.


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