# Owing revenue money from 11 years ago



## Scuby2019 (4 Nov 2019)

Hi
Hoping someone can give me some advice.
My husband was claiming “single person tax credit” from 2007 - 2012   _Edit - Single Parent Tax Credit , not Single Person_
In 2012 he told revenue he wasn’t single as we had a child  in 2006
Therefore he shouldn’t have been claiming the tax credit, so revenue adjusted his tax credits for the years 2013,2014,2015
to pay the tax back.

recently we have been given granted incapacitated child credit. We are getting this back dated.

Howver revenue rang my husband & said he owed over 2k for 2008
This is going back a 11 years ago and they won’t process the p21 balancing statement for 2015 until this is paid?
Why is this only coming up now? Does he have to pay this even after 11 years?

hope that makes sense? Thank you


----------



## gianni (4 Nov 2019)

Scuby2019 said:


> Hi
> Hoping someone can give me some advice.
> My husband was claiming “single person tax credit” from 2007 - 2012
> In 2012 he told revenue he wasn’t single as we had a child  in 2006
> ...



You can be married, have a child and still be assessed as a "single person". Its a basis of assessment - rather than a statement of relationship status.


----------



## Scuby2019 (4 Nov 2019)

Hi - thanks for your reply!
We got married in 2012 & only started getting joint accessed this year.

but back in 2008 he was single accessed.
I just don’t understand  why after 11 years they are bringing up money owed from 2008. Why have they not got on sooner?

we requested a p21 statement for 2015 as we were hoping to get a refund for the back dating if the incapacitated credit.

they are asking him to pay the 2k for 2008.
Which we can’t afford.

is there a cut off point for money owed to revenue.

example: we can only claim back 4 years
Can revenue come after you for money owed from 11years?
Thank you


----------



## Sophrosyne (4 Nov 2019)

Scuby2019 said:


> Howver revenue rang my husband & said he owed over 2k for 2008



Is the amount owed for 2008 solely related to the One-Parent Family Credit for that year or partly to something else?


----------



## Scuby2019 (4 Nov 2019)

It should only be for the single parent
Tax credit of €1830 for 2008
I don’t know how they are getting the figure
Of €2,670

My husband said he would look into and call them back.
We have no documents of anything for 2008 in  his archive online.
Do we just have to pay it? After 11 years


----------



## Sophrosyne (5 Nov 2019)

Scuby2019 said:


> I don’t know how they are getting the figure Of €2,670



Was this not explained in the course of the telephone call?


----------



## Scuby2019 (5 Nov 2019)

My husband was  in shock when he was talking to them & didn’t ask many questions. He is going to give permission for me to talk on his behalf tomorrow.
I’ll find out more. 

it just seems so long ago &they never contacted him about the monies owed


----------



## Sophrosyne (5 Nov 2019)

Scuby2019 said:


> My husband was in shock when he was talking to them & didn’t ask many questions. He is going to give permission for me to talk on his behalf tomorrow.
> I’ll find out more.
> 
> it just seems so long ago &they never contacted him about the monies owed



Well something must have happened to give rise to an additional tax liability in 2008, which cannot be solely explained by overclaiming OPFA.  Until we know what that is we cannot advise you.


----------



## vandriver (5 Nov 2019)

Can they look for money from 2008....Yes!


----------



## torblednam (5 Nov 2019)

To answer your question, if the liability outstanding is on record since 2008 then legally yes they can still collect it.

If there wasn’t already a balancing statement for2008 showing that liability, then the statutory 4-year time limit would preclude revenue from seeking to go back that far.

So what your husband needs to do is clarify what has gone on previously in relation to 2008, which is best done by talking to Revenue.


----------



## Protocol (5 Nov 2019)

Don't confuse the following tax credits:

single person

single parent


----------



## Scuby2019 (5 Nov 2019)

Single parent


----------



## Scuby2019 (6 Nov 2019)

Update

Chatting to revenue today with my husbands permission.
He was receiving one parent tax credit in 2008 - which he should haven't.
in 2012 we got married.
revenue adjusted his tax credits for 2009-2011 to pay those years back.
For 2008 he was sent a p21 and demanded to pay revenue back the 2k within 30days.
He didn't pay it. 11 years on never heard anything from revenue regarding money owed.
he doesn't recall this ever coming up  before

until recently we requested a p21 statement for 2015 as we were hoping to get a refund for the back dating of the incapacitated credit.  


they advised me today that we have to pay the outstanding money owed for 2008 before they can issue the p21 for 2015
I asked can they not offset the 3300 tax credit owed for 2015 against 2008
they said no! it has to be paid first. The system wont let the p21 to be generated, nothing they can do.
I asked if he pays 2008, is there any other tax outstanding? they said they cant see but there could be.
I asked if someone that had access could tell me... so if I pay the outstanding amount we wont be hit with another bill?
only the computer knows …..

bottom line ok - so he owes money for 2008 
This is the last year we can claim the back dating of the incapacitated credit. if we don't pay we will lose the 3300 for 2015
legally can revenue withhold from giving us our p21 for 2015?

I don't have the money to pay for 2008

any advice or thoughts  welcome


----------



## noproblem (6 Nov 2019)

Surely no one forgets owing a few thousand to someone. I wouldn't forget if someone owed me money no matter how small, so I guess I wouldn't forget owing it to someone else either. I do feel sorry for you both but it seems the money is owed and has to get paid. Maybe someone in the family will loan it to you and pay it back when you get your payment.


----------



## Scuby2019 (6 Nov 2019)

I 100% agree with you, I certainly wouldnt forget owing such a huge amount of tax...
they said they posted the p21... I asked did they not follow up after 30 days of no payment?
if I owed money to SKY for example, they would be on my case.. surely revenue don't let things go???

I have no problem paying it & would get a loan.if they could tell me nothing else will pop up from the passed
but no one in revenue can give me an answer.

so i could be in the position & get a lend, pay off the amount owed..   get my refund for 2015.
pay off the money lent and be up€600

or pay and be landed with another tax bill from years ago and not be in a position to pay off the loan

i said if i dont pay what would happen, she said they wouldnt issue 2015s p21 and it will be in limbo


----------



## Monbretia (6 Nov 2019)

It's a wonder Revenue didn't reduce his future years credits to recoup the overpayment, I'd imagine very few people actually pay back a lump sum in those sort of scenarios.  

If you are an account holder with a credit union I'd try them for a loan.


----------



## Scuby2019 (6 Nov 2019)

they did reduce his tax credits for 2009-2011
but not for 2008??

I am not in a position to get a loan from the CC
it would have to be a family member


----------



## llgon (6 Nov 2019)

Unusual that Revenue would have let this go for so long but now that their attention is drawn to it, it is inevitable that they will pursue it. So you/your husband have a choice:

Get a loan immediately, hope there are no other outstanding taxes due, and put yourself in a position to claim back overpaid tax for 2015
or
Delay this, still end up owing the same amount but losing out on claiming back tax for 2015.

Seems like a pretty straightforward choice. Surely your husband should have a good idea if there are any more skeletons in the closet?  I would speculate that Revenue probably aren't aware that you owe any more but will not tell you this in case anything unexpected arises.


----------



## NuriaF (6 Nov 2019)

I ran into this discussion while looking for something else. It's strange on how the system works in Ireland. In most places where I lived in Europe there is a specific amount of time within which the tax authority has the power of requesting and enforcing a tax payment. It's normally 10 years. If the taxpayer has been informed about an outstanding payment and the taxpayer has disregarded it, then the tax authority (before the 10 years term expires) has to take other steps to recoup the credit. That step (even a simple reminder registered letter) will allow the tax authority to open another 10 years "window" starting from that last action. If however the tax authority leaves the case dormant and fails to follow up within the 10 years since the last action, then they are barred from trying to recoup the credit. If it takes a tax authority 11 years or more to follow up on a disregarded payment then I belive they should be barred from requesting it same as happens in most of the EU countries. In Scruby's case it looks like they cannot even tell her if any other tax is due so what if at some stage they find a tax due from maybe 25 years ago ?


----------



## torblednam (6 Nov 2019)

That thing about the system not allowing a P21 to be generated because of a prior year liability, sounds like nonsense. It makes no sense; a P21 is the equivalent of a tax assessment, and each year is standalone, so I can’t see any reason why the system could be set up in such a way. I’d say it actually might be contrary to the tax legislation for Revenue to refuse to issue you with a P21, system issue or not, that’s their problem to solve.

There’s also no reason why they shouldn’t be able to take the 2008 underpayment out of the 2015 refund, that’s what normally happens in these situations (although normally it’s not 10+ year old liability being collected). 

I think you may need to call back and say you want to speak to someone more senior to complain, as what you were told today just sounds plain wrong. They do have a lot of very new and inexperienced people manning the phones these days so it could just be down to that...


----------



## Scuby2019 (6 Nov 2019)

torblednam said:


> hat thing about the system not allowing a P21 to be generated because of a prior year liability, sounds like nonsense. It makes no sense; a P21 is the equivalent of a tax assessment, and each year is standalone, so I can’t see any reason why the system could be set up in such a way. I’d say it actually might be contrary to the tax legislation for Revenue to refuse to issue you with a P21, system issue or not, that’s their problem to solve.
> 
> There’s also no reason why they shouldn’t be able to take the 2008 underpayment out of the 2015 refund, that’s what normally happens in these situations (although normally it’s not 10+ year old liability being collected).
> 
> I think you may need to call back and say you want to speak to someone more senior to complain, as what you were told today just sounds plain wrong. They do have a lot of very new and inexperienced people manning the phones these days so it could just be down to that...




It is with the audit department, I did ask to speak to someone else or come in for a meeting and was told that she is the only one i can deal with on the case. She did say on the phone she wasn't trying to pull the wool over my eyes. 

as the p21 statement said "it demanded the money within 30 days" & not this amount is going to be offset again future years.
this is why she could not override the system

her hands are tied till I paid with the collections team


----------



## Sophrosyne (6 Nov 2019)

Was your husband self-assessed for 2008 and/or prior years?


----------



## elcato (7 Nov 2019)

NuriaF said:


> I ran into this discussion while looking for something else. It's strange on how the system works in Ireland. In most places where I lived in Europe there is a specific amount of time within which the tax authority has the power of requesting and enforcing a tax payment. It's normally 10 years. If the taxpayer has been informed about an outstanding payment and the taxpayer has disregarded it, then the tax authority (before the 10 years term expires) has to take other steps to recoup the credit. That step (even a simple reminder registered letter) will allow the tax authority to open another 10 years "window" starting from that last action.


This is Ireland unfortunately. If they did this you can be sure there would be loads of people moving around when the ten years is coming up to make sure they cannot get that letter. Good example of how our legal system works is the current case of the ex TD who is slithering around to avoid serving of papers (his name rhymes with Saliva Ballally btw)


----------



## Scuby2019 (7 Nov 2019)

Sophrosyne said:


> Was your husband self-assessed for 2008 and/or prior years?


Yes self access until 2012


----------



## Sophrosyne (8 Nov 2019)

Scuby2019 said:


> Yes self access until 2012



Your husband would have received Notices of Assessment rather than P21s for the period during which he was self-assessed.

You say that the underpayment as a result of the One-Parent Family Credit was collected by reduction of his tax credits for the years from 2013 to 2015.

It appears there is an outstanding income tax liability (self-assessment).

This may or may not be connected to the One-Parent Family credit.

You need to contact the Self-Assessment section rather than the PAYE section in order to discuss the matter.


----------



## Leper (8 Nov 2019)

1. Your husband owes €2K not €200K. Two grand is a paltry amount to Revenue in the greater scheme of things.
2. There appears to be something wrong when Revenue owes you money and you owe them money and they cannot or will not tie both amounts which would be common sense.
3. Worse again, you are not allowed to contact anybody in Revenue dealing directly with your case. All you can do is contact a "bureau" where somebody writes out their version of your complaint which he/she might or might not pass on and you hope you will be contacted by some reasonable decision maker. Don't hold your breath, I reckon the only contact you'll have with Revenue is their written bill for the €2K. You'll challenge this and guess what you're back at square 1 again.
4. Revenue can charge you 8% per annum on monies owed to them. If they have money for you, they pay you the owed amount with no interest no matter how long they possessed it.
5. It's only  €2K, but if I were you I'd contact an independent qualified tax advisor. It'll cost, but it buys an easy mind for you in the future.
6. There are other options too like writing to the Tax Appeals Board or even contacting the Ombudsman and all for the failure of the Revenue Commissioners to see Common Sense.


----------



## Sophrosyne (8 Nov 2019)

Leper said:


> 1. Your husband owes €2K not €200K. Two grand is a paltry amount to Revenue in the greater scheme of things.
> 2. There appears to be something wrong when Revenue owe you money and you owe them money and they cannot or will not tie both amounts which would be common sense.
> 3. Worse again, you cannot contact anybody in Revenue dealing with your case. All you can do is contact a "bureau" where somebody writes out their version of your complaint which he/she might or might no pass on and you hope you will be contacted by some reasonable decision maker. Don't hold your breath, I reckon the only contact you'll have with Revenue is their written bill for the €2K. You'll challenge this and guess what you're back at square 1 again.



Whoa back up a bit! You don’t know what the situation is. 

To me it looks like a Revenue compliance intervention, in particular because of the direct contact by telephone call.

Revenue don’t make direct interventions for nothing.

There is no need for the OP to go to the expense of a tax advisor.


----------



## Leper (9 Nov 2019)

HI Sophrosyne, the situation is as follows as per the thread:-
1. The OP owes €2K to Revenue.
2. Revenue owes some amount to the OP.
3. Revenue won't play a debt against a credit (Crazy! and a sacred cow that needs to be changed).
4. The OP cannot speak to any Revenue decision maker re the situation. It appears Revenue decision makers are not contacting the OP except to send out a written invoice.
5. Civil Servants need to be civil (basic raison d'etre). They are there to serve the people (bottom line). The OP is not being treated fairly (obvious).
6. Revenue is understaffed (not mentioned here) but that is not the OP's problem.
7. I reckon everybody should use a Tax Advisor on occasion e.g. coming up to retirement. But, in this instance I feel it will be money well spent.
8. If the above is not the real situation, then please advise in easy readable terms (I'm all ears and willing to learn). "Compliance Intervention" is gobbledegook to me.


----------



## Sophrosyne (9 Nov 2019)

Leper said:


> 1. The OP owes €2K to Revenue.
> 2. Revenue owes some amount to the OP.
> 3. Revenue won't play a debt against a credit (Crazy! and a sacred cow that needs to be changed).
> 4. The OP cannot speak to any Revenue decision maker re the situation. It appears Revenue decision makers are not contacting the OP except to send out a written invoice.



But Revenue _did_ contact the OP’s husband by telephone.

He had an opportunity to sort out matters in the course of this call but it appears he did not.

From her posts it is clear that the OP does not know what transpired during that telephone call and consequently neither do we.

For instance I cannot tell whether the 2008 debt is solely due to One-Parent Family credit or an unconnected historic debt or indeed whether it is net of the Incapacitated Child Credits.


----------



## torblednam (9 Nov 2019)

Leper said:


> 1. Your husband owes €2K not €200K. Two grand is a paltry amount to Revenue in the greater scheme of things.
> 2. There appears to be something wrong when Revenue owes you money and you owe them money and they cannot or will not tie both amounts which would be common sense.
> 3. Worse again, you are not allowed to contact anybody in Revenue dealing directly with your case. All you can do is contact a "bureau" where somebody writes out their version of your complaint which he/she might or might not pass on and you hope you will be contacted by some reasonable decision maker. Don't hold your breath, I reckon the only contact you'll have with Revenue is their written bill for the €2K. You'll challenge this and guess what you're back at square 1 again.
> 4. Revenue can charge you 8% per annum on monies owed to them. If they have money for you, they pay you the owed amount with no interest no matter how long they possessed it.
> ...



Multiple inaccuracies / things that are incorrect in the above post.


----------



## Leper (9 Nov 2019)

torblednam said:


> Multiple inaccuracies / things that are incorrect in the above post.


Please point out the inaccuracies.


----------



## Leper (11 Nov 2019)

1. I'm still awaiting Torblednam to return here to point out my alleged inaccuracies. But, I've read his/her previous posts on the matter and he/she and I are saying almost the same thing. It appears the only thing we dispute is the chance of speaking directly with a decision maker in Revenue.

2. Torblednam did say "They do have a lot of very new and inexperienced people manning the phones these days so it could just be down to that... " How does he/she know that?  If this is true it's not the OP's problem. It's Revenue.


----------

