# evergreen fund



## dandy

I invested €25k in BOI Evergreen fund from my SSIA and €130 monthly however the fund was down about 8% before xmas and another 3.9% already this year should I stop the monthly payment as it seems to be throwing good money after bad ?


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## ClubMan

Have you  for previous threads on this issue?

The usual questions - why did you invest in this fund, were you not aware of the possibility of volatility over your investment timeframe, what is your investment timeframe, what is your general attitude to risk/volatility, what other debts/savings/investments do you have, what charges apply on this fund etc. etc.


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## shipibo

Am in same boat as you, and am pullin, fund on Monday


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## ClubMan

Seems a bit drastic to be pulling out of such an investment after (presumably) a few months?


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## gebbel

That should depend on your investment timeframe and goals; are you prepared to ride out the storm and wait for the fund to gain back lost ground? Do you need the money soon? Remember that this particular fund was achieving a 9% annual growth rate going back the last few years, so chances are the current downward trend cannot continue indefinitely.

By the way I had €12000 in this fund for 2 years and when it started on the downward spiral last November, I took it all out. I had lost €1000 in 6 months but still came out with a €800 profit. I, however, needed the money in a hurry. If you do not perhaps you should leave it there.


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## dandy

I may leave the balance in the fund but stop the monthly payments as I think they would achieve more going into my regular savings account


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## ClubMan

This means that you have bought units high but now that they are low(er) you are going to stop? Surely that's a good way to lose money over the long term? Of course if this is a bad investment/fund or not appropriate to your needs then maybe you should not be in it at all but if it was/is appropriate for you then regardless of short term volatility there may be a strong argument for sticking with it.


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## shipibo

Thanks Clubman,


     You have made some valid points, I need to get soem more information on the fund before I stop monthly payment / withdraw all from fund.


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## mydosh

Guys, I'm a similar position to dandy and I understand where your coming from I too am a new investor. 

My question is to the two experienced (guess) chaps ClubMan and Gebbel and it's this how bad do you think the current situation will get? I invested around Aug'07 and now I see on 17/01/08 its down 12.1%.....so any insights on how bad this current trend can get? Do you foresee any turn around soon?

My Bank of Ireland advisor suggested to hold with the evergreen fund as the shares are basically sound and things should get better after March when all the sub-prime impacts will be known. His reckoning is that consumer have no confidence in the market right now and it will improved in April ( probably April 1st :-( ).I'm worried for sure especially since the US is in the early stages of recession? So should I realise my loss or hold tough. NOTE: I don't need the money anytime soon so could wait however its difficult to see your investements slipping every day.

Hymm what to do?


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## ClubMan

mydosh said:


> My question is to the two experienced (guess) chaps ClubMan and Gebbel and it's this how bad do you think the current situation will get? I invested around Aug'07 and now I see on 17/01/08 its down 12.1%.....so any insights on how bad this current trend can get? Do you foresee any turn around soon?


Nobody can predict the future. What's more relevant here is the timeframe over which people were/are planning to invest. This sort of volatility is to be expected with equity investments. Over the long term it should smooth out. These are general comments about equity investments and not about this specific product in particular.


> My Bank of Ireland advisor suggested to hold with the evergreen fund


Well he would wouldn't he? Don't expect independent, professional investment advice in your best interests from a tied agent.


> Hymm what to do?


Well don't try to time the market or listen to your bank manager's biased ramblings about predicting the future for a start...


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## mydosh

ClubMan said:


> Nobody can predict the future. What's more relevant here is the timeframe over which people were/are planning to invest. This sort of volatility is to be expected with equity investments. Over the long term it should smooth out. These are general comments about equity investments and not about this specific product in particular.
> 
> Well he would wouldn't he? Don't expect independent, professional investment advice in your best interests from a tied agent.
> 
> Well don't try to time the market or listen to your bank manager's biased ramblings about predicting the future for a start...


 
ClubMan, yep I hear what you are saying. I understand there is no history to the stockmarket and I'm probably asking a ridiculous question here but would you have any guth feeling for whats happenning with equites and do you see any stablizing soon? Its not just the evergreen all equity based funds are down by about the same amount too?


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## ClubMan

No.


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## mydosh

ClubMan said:


> No.


 
Yep, thats what it feels like alright i.e no stability anytime soon! O.K Ooh boy, I think I'll need to consider realizing a portion of my loss....at this rate the funds could go down another 12% BUT who knows. Guess this is the gamble we take!  

Alright thanks for listening to my ramblings. Much appreciated.


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## ClubMan

mydosh said:


> Yep, thats what it feels like alright i.e no stability anytime soon!


That's not what I said. I just said that I could not answer the questions that you were asking! I cannot predict the future. Nobody can. Gut feelings are worthless.


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## mydosh

Sorry about that ClubMan. I totally agree.

Switching to the other thread...."*When will the downward spiral in the stockmarket end? *"....need to digest the information under that thread.

Cheers,
MyDosh.


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## ClubMan

I haven't bothered reading that thread myself as it sounds like a recipe for everybody to post their own half baked notions about predicting the future...


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## dunkamania

I dont understand why you would stop paying your monthly let alone pull your money altogether unless you have a very short time horizon. When prices are depressed your money buys more shares/units, so why did you stop buying when everything went on sale?


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## gebbel

ClubMan said:


> I haven't bothered reading that thread myself as it sounds like a recipe for everybody to post their own half baked notions about predicting the future...


 
Agreed. I will however comment a little on the OP's original question in relation to the Evergreen fund:




> The Evergreen Fund is unique in that it has a higher property content than any other managed fund currently in the market. The proportion of property assets held in the fund is generally set between 20% and 30% with the remainder of the portfolio made up of equities, fixed interest stocks and cash.


 
The above quote comes from the smartfunds.ie website. I decided to bail out because of the levelling out, and subsequent decline of the Irish property market during 2007 and now into 2008. As the fund is made up of a high % of property assets, and as my personal investment timeframe was such that I could not "ride out the storm", it made more sense for me to withdraw my money before it declined any further. If others who are in this fund have different goals etc., then the wise advice might be to stay in. It depends on your personal circumstances.



> My Bank of Ireland advisor suggested to hold with the evergreen fund as the shares are basically sound and things should get better after March when all the sub-prime impacts will be known.


 
ClubMan is right in stating that you cannot take the advice of a tied agent in this matter. When I went to Bank of Ireland to withdraw my €12K from this fund, the advisor gave me all kinds of reasons as to why I was making the wrong decision. I am happy now that I ignored him, he is hardly independent!!
Good luck whatever decision you make.


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## shipibo

The call we need to make is will fund rebound , or are we throwing money away ....


Only indicator is the assets in fund, if a lot of property , Im out ..


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## WombleWilly

crumdub12 said:


> The call we need to make is will fund rebound , or are we throwing money away ....


 
I think a lot of people could do with Googling "pound cost averaging". It might provide some comfort.

On another note, if this investment is causing you this much worry, then it is probably not for you.

Never invest in equities if you're not happy to just tuck the money away for a *minimum* of 5 years and just forget about it. If you're checking the value every 5 minutes, then you'll end up handing all your hard-earned cash over to a psychiatrist at the end of the day.


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## Shiram

I've been paying into Evergreen for the last 2 and a half years.  Luckily I won't need to access the cash for the next few years so I reckon I'm going to stick it out.


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## mydosh

WombleWilly said:


> I think a lot of people could do with Googling "pound cost averaging". It might provide some comfort.
> 
> On another note, if this investment is causing you this much worry, then it is probably not for you.
> 
> Never invest in equities if you're not happy to just tuck the money away for a *minimum* of 5 years and just forget about it. If you're checking the value every 5 minutes, then you'll end up handing all your hard-earned cash over to a psychiatrist at the end of the day.


 
I agree with this sentinement however recent dips / crashes in the market did not (I believe) last this long or stay on a continuous decline for such a long period as our current situation. Additionally the sub-prime situation is an additional variable running side by side with US heading into potential recession....lots of depressing news to absorb for someone who's new to equities. For sure one has to take the long term view as guessing the markets is a flawed game. But in days of uncertainty like these it is difficult to find strong independant opinions. This forum at least is good for airing these concerns. 



			
				gebbel; said:
			
		

> ClubMan is right in stating that you cannot take the advice of a tied agent in this matter. When I went to Bank of Ireland to withdraw my €12K from this fund, the advisor gave me all kinds of reasons as to why I was making the wrong decision. I am happy now that I ignored him, he is hardly independent!!
> Good luck whatever decision you make.


 
BTW, I've setup a meeting with BoI investement advisor for tomorrow lunchtime and on the phone she's already saying now is the time to buy...and I guess she read the "pound cost averaging" thingy. Interesting that bank advisors advice is to stick with the investements...no brainer there then! Ordinarily I wouldn't be so concerned its just like I said this seem to be a strange period in the markets....not just an ordinary dip I think. 

BTW I'm new to this market watching so the above rambling is no way meant to be authorative - just throwing out my opinions.


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## shipibo

WombleWilly said:


> Never invest in equities if you're not happy to just tuck the money away for a *minimum* of 5 years and just forget about it. If you're checking the value every 5 minutes, then you'll end up handing all your hard-earned cash over to a psychiatrist at the end of the day.



Putting money away for 5 years in todays market .....  the price has dropped over 3 quarters by 12 % , at the very least people need to access if continuing contributions.


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## coman

i have lump sum invested but it is guaranteed with Evergreen, i have my childrens allowance going into it which isnt guaranteed.  I sometimes think what am i going to do if i lose all that as it was for their education but i am going to ride it out and i dont want to see any statement for at least five years!  As it is a small amount all i want is to get back what i put it what is the possibility of this happening?


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## jenny-walsh

The advice I was given when investing my money (advised by an independant financial advisor) is that the Evergreen fund was less volatile than most because they investsted in so many different areas nationally and internationally and were good at sticking to less volatile areas, where downturns weren't felt as badly. I'm wondering now was he getting a commission from BOI, although I've had my ear glued to different reports and they're mostly expecting it to level out and pick up by the end of the year. 
I've 10k invested, I think I'll ride out the storm.


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## ClubMan

jenny-walsh said:


> The advice I was given when investing my money (advised by an independant financial advisor)


Just curious ... what sort of independent financial advisor? Multi-agency intermediary or authorised advisor?


> is that the Evergreen fund was less volatile than most because they investsted in so many different areas nationally and internationally and were good at sticking to less volatile areas, where downturns weren't felt as badly.


Maybe that is still true? Have you compared _evergreen _to fund with a similar risk/reward profile and asset mix and then also to those with a higher or lower risk/reward profile to see how it's doing relatively?


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## jenny-walsh

ClubMan said:


> Just curious ... what sort of independent financial advisor? Multi-agency intermediary or authorised advisor?
> Maybe that is still true? Have you compared _evergreen _to fund with a similar risk/reward profile and asset mix and then also to those with a higher or lower risk/reward profile to see how it's doing relatively?



Multi Agency, I do my best to compare and contrast but my head isn't the best when it comes to the jargon, bit of a mind bender for a dunce like myself! 
Research, research, research- in the end I invested with evergreen cos the best I could figure it was less volatile than most, though not without it's risks but that's all part of these investments eh? Though I think I'll bide my time, ride out the storm then move it all to a regular savings account.


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## Sharon O'Bri

Read ure comments with interest, about the only interest i'm getting this weather! my husband and I invested €100k, his redundancy, half n half in Evergreen and Trilogy II. We're thinking of cutting our losses, about €12k at this stage. I don't think the market will make a magical recovery any time soon. We seem to be so interlinked with the US Markets and with it being an election year the markets there could take some time to settle. I agree investments are for the long haul but some times you're better off not throwing good money after bad.
Singed Fingers


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## gebbel

Sharon O'Bri said:


> my husband and I invested €100k, his redundancy, half n half in Evergreen and Trilogy II. We're thinking of cutting our losses, about €12k at this stage. I don't think the market will make a magical recovery any time soon.


 
Ask yourself first do you need the money now? If not then it might be foolish (regardless of all you have read in this thread) and impulsive to bail out now. You may recoup the losses. The more I think about it €12K is too much to lose at this stage. My advice is to hang on if you can.


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## WombleWilly

crumdub12 said:


> Putting money away for 5 years in todays market ..... the price has dropped over 3 quarters by 12 % , at the very least people need to access if continuing contributions.


 
OK.

a) Selling won't recover you that 12%
b) "Previous performance is not a good indicator of future performance"

Look at the company fundamentals is my advice. If they look good, and the price is cheap, buy.

Market sentiment in 2003 when the FTSE was around 3,500 was pretty poor at the time. Even sitting on the lossed of the last few months, anyone who bought then would be sitting on a 52% profit, excluding dividends.


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## WombleWilly

mydosh said:


> I agree with this sentinement however recent dips / crashes in the market did not (I believe) last this long or stay on a continuous decline for such a long period as our current situation. Additionally the sub-prime situation is an additional variable running side by side with US heading into potential recession....lots of depressing news to absorb for someone who's new to equities. For sure one has to take the long term view as guessing the markets is a flawed game. But in days of uncertainty like these it is difficult to find strong independant opinions. This forum at least is good for airing these concerns.


 
The bear market that started in 2000 took 3 years to iron itself out. During that time we had Enron, 9/11, threats of a US recession, European economy in a slump, Iraq invasion etc. etc. However, if you'd invested small amounts over a regular basis during that whole period, you'd be sitting on a tidy profit today, in spite of what's happened in the last few months.

There is always risk out there. What you've got to ask yourself is whether the market is pricing that in already. With BOI on a div yield of around 8%, and PE of less than 10, there are not many times when you can buy that kind of value, even if earnings fall over the short term.

You don't just lose money by buying and seeing the price drop. You also lose it by selling or holding back when panicked, and later having to buy back those investments at a higher price when short-term worries have ironed themselves out.


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## lawdie

Sharon O'Bri said:


> We're thinking of cutting our losses, about €12k at this stage. I don't think the market will make a magical recovery any time soon. We seem to be so interlinked with the US Markets and with it being an election year the markets there could take some time to settle. I agree investments are for the long haul but some times you're better off not throwing good money after bad.



Theres some basic questions you need to ask before you write off 12k.  Did you really invest for "the long haul" or just when the current unit prices rose.  Is the fund fundamentally flawed in its structure.  Has this proved to be a weak return over any seven year period.  Does it truly diversify in terms of asset classes, mix and etc.

The old quote from my now deceased commerce teacher was always buy low and sell high.  The unit prices of most funds are low, will they see a high, that inevitably is yes in most cases. When, can't say. But thats what investing is all about, you still possess the same number of units/shares but have a low value.  A little patience should see it right, it has in the past.  But its your money.


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## jrewing

Warren Buffett said something along the lines of....
"When investors are greedy, be wary; when investors are wary, be greedy"

i.e. this should be looked upon as an opportunity for buying rather than taking a hit.


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## tyoung

With respect Jr, the problem that I have with that analysis is that it artificially separates the individual investor from the overall market. You are part of the market! If you are feeling confident so might a surprisingly large number of investors be.
  From personal experience  the two times when I was worried about my own losses (Nov 87 and Spring 03 ) were significant bottoms in the market.
Basically my own instincts were in sync with the "Market" that I thought I could outsmart! 
Regards


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## WombleWilly

tyoung said:


> With respect Jr, the problem that I have with that analysis is that it artificially separates the individual investor from the overall market. You are part of the market! If you are feeling confident so might a surprisingly large number of investors be.
> From personal experience the two times when I was worried about my own losses (Nov 87 and Spring 03 ) were significant bottoms in the market.
> Basically my own instincts were in sync with the "Market" that I thought I could outsmart!
> Regards


 

Recent Events Syndrome: A well known difficulty for many small investors who foolishly over-weight the effect of recent events above that of long term trends.

You can't beat looking at company fundamentals. Reading charts is no better than reading tea-leaves.

The opportunity to market-outperform on your investments is to ignore "gut instinct" (which is "herd instinct" in reality), and focus of buying cheaper, and selling dear. '87 and '03 a perfect examples of that.


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## Chamol

Hello all. This post of mine follows the thoughts and comments regarding the Evergreen Fund BOI and relates first my experience with Irish Life Scope and then my transfer into Evergreen!  - From reading the posts  - There is a real sense of 'leave the money invested for at least 5 years and you will do ok!' - and these were the words of my Irish Permanent advisor when I handed over 20,000 Irish Punts to invest in Irish Life Scope in the year 2000 - equally shared across High, Average and Low risk - US. , European and Irish investments. I did not need the money then and just 'forgot about it' - 4 years later and it had reached 11,000 !!!  Then I continued to leave it and it started to lift! Very slowly! - In early 2007 it had reached the all time high of 18,000 Euro's (Not punts!!) - Then in March 2007 it started to rapidly fall again! So I too it out! - Bad Move? Good Move? - I had invested the equivqlent of 25,000 Euros in 2000 and was now in 2007 withdrawing 18,000 Euros! - Then after this I paused for thought and eventually was convinced by an BOI Investment advisor who sympatised with me regarding how awful the Scope performance had been and how all advisors were shocked by it  - I was advised to invest 10,000 euros in Evergreen! - in November last! - Today its worth 8800 Euros - I was then advised to not worry - 5 years at least and you will do ok! - Familiar sounding to me who lost with Scope! Is this the same scenario! - Oh what to do now! ... any advice appreciated! Chamol


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## whatthe

is there anywhere you can see how it is preforming now?


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## ClubMan

[broken link removed] or on a related page? Remember that past performance is no guide to future returns.


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## shipibo

whatthe said:


> is there anywhere you can see how it is preforming now?


 

Irish times on Friday, or ring them , nothing on the Internet...


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## joe sod

WombleWilly said:


> The bear market that started in 2000 took 3 years to iron itself out. During that time we had Enron, 9/11, threats of a US recession, European economy in a slump, Iraq invasion etc. etc. However, if you'd invested small amounts over a regular basis during that whole period, you'd be sitting on a tidy profit today, in spite of what's happened in the last few months.
> 
> There is always risk out there. What you've got to ask yourself is whether the market is pricing that in already. With BOI on a div yield of around 8%, and PE of less than 10, there are not many times when you can buy that kind of value, even if earnings fall over the short term.
> 
> You don't just lose money by buying and seeing the price drop. You also lose it by selling or holding back when panicked, and later having to buy back those investments at a higher price when short-term worries have ironed themselves out.


 
I presume you are referring to the irish market when talking about the 2000 slump, however one key factor not mentioned is that the iseq was not really in the 2000 boom because we had few high tech companies in it , however the dow and nasdaq were where all the action was in the 2000 boom, the nasdaq has never fully recovered the heights of 2000, the dow did a year ago but has retreated from it, and also the dollar has fallen 60% since then so that in euro terms the dow is still way off its 2000 high, this slump has directly affected the iseq because the cause is financials not high tech, that is why the iseq has been so heavily hit this time but not in 2000


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## AnthonyC

ClubMan said:


> [broken link removed] or on a related page? Remember that past performance is no guide to future returns.


 
Hi - Thanks for that 
I also have "Investment For Growth (S4)" - does anyone know a webpage I can check on that also?


There is the page I was given for "Evergreen (S2)" here
[broken link removed]

A good deal less than the (S4) in the above link.


The Investment manager at my bank this year *twice* told me it wasnt possible for them to give out daily updates
over the internet as the load would crash their systems and any pages on internet were not accurate - seriously .


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## paulflaumen

I invested in evergreen a year ago and you know the story. I've always been in this for the long haul, but guess what? The "fundamentals" have changed drastically and the worst economic data in modern history from the US has obvious implications for changing ALL investment modeling. Sitting tight for 5 years on basis of the current economic data globally and the sub-prime crisis just doesn't make sense. 

I'm getting out of Evergreen, cutting my losses. BIAM have been very very poor on the matter - their analysts haven't a clue, they send no updates or resassurances proactively, nothing. Just look at BOI's own share price performance in the last 12 months. Does that give you confidence in a company that knows how to hold its own?

In rumours are right, then BOI won't be around by 2010 anyway.

See: [broken link removed]


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## Chamol

I invested 10,000 in Evergreen BOI last Nov 07 ... they did not tell me then that it was not doing well ... only that it had performed well over the previous 5 years! I pulled the money in July 08 loosing about 1800. No regrets!  I had been burned badly previously with Irish Life / Pemanent's SCOPE having invested 25000 in 2000 and pulling it in 2007 valued at 18000  - I think CLUBMAN must be employed by these advisors in these Banks/Consortium's! He/She keeps repeating the phrase!! ' Have you considered .... !! ......... Ahhhhhhhh!  Regards Chamol  

_Statistically the probability of any one of us being here is so small that you would think the mere fact of existence would keep us all in a contented dazzlement of surprise. Lewis Thomas_


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## LDFerguson

paulflaumen said:


> In rumours are right, then BOI won't be around by 2010 anyway.
> 
> See: [broken link removed]


 
Are there rumours that Bank of Ireland won't be here in 2010?  Do tell.


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## Mammyto2

We put 17500 in here two years ago and have paid in 200 per month and got our statement last week and it is just over 15,000, really dont know what to do. As this a large property portfolio will it ever rise significntly again?
Oh what to do??


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## magicmoves

I am in the same boat too. Would it be better to reduce the monthly repayments and ride out the storm. Is there a way you can check the progress of the evergreen fund?


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## shipibo

Stop your monthly payments if you want, and see if the market pans out.

only way to positively check is to ring New Ireland.


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## NorthDrum

People either arent getting good advice or arent actually putting any thought into their investments. 

People invest in deposits, government bonds & guaranteed bonds to get returns near or slightly greater then interest rates or inflation. The idea being your investment maintains its value year on year with little or no risk.

People invest in Bonds like the BOI Evergreen when they want to make gains above inflation. It says on all declarations that "your fund may go up aswell as down" and "past performance doesnt guarantee future gains" (or something to that effect.

Somebody mentioned putting 100k retirement money into Evergreen and Trilogy 2, why would you do that if you werent willing to take a risk? Trilogy 2 is a very high risk fund to be investing retirement money in, something must of been lost in translation in communicating with your advisor .

First thing you ask yourself investing money in anything other then guaranteed investments is how much can you afford to lose. This helps you decide what your investment portfolio should be geared towards and gives you a greater understanding of the potential pitfalls of investing outside of your comfort zone (deposits etc). Nobody wants to lose money, but by asking themselves this question it should focus your mind better on the dynamics of risk v reward.

With regards to the 5 year comment that most financial advisors use, it is normally very sound advice. Who could of seen the last years economic turmoil coming? Everybody, even the most succesful companies in the world have been hit by the world credit crunch, nobody saw it coming. 

I would still say to people that putting any money in non guaranteed equities is something you shouldnt be checking daily unless its a hobby. Equities will go up and down, but HISTORICALLY long term outperform all other investments.

The people who make serious money are the ones who invest when prices fall a certain amount and sell when prices are up at a certain point. Nobody on this planet can ALWAYS get it 100% right as to when the bottom up or top price of a fund or share will br reached.

I have particular dealings with the evergreen fund and know that its one of the best performers of its kind over the last 30 years. People should of considered putting money into the Guaranteed Evergreen if they didnt want to take a huge risk. This fund guarantees you at the least your money back. 

People who bought houses in the last year are in negative equity, yet nobody says they were badly advised. To a degree, Its the same thing in equities, you take a chance and hope that either you arent badly burned or you make good gains. To counteract this you make sure that any risks you have taken will not impact seriously on your personal finances.

Anybody who has already invested in the evergreen has taken a huge hit in the last year or so. Could it go down further ? of course . Historically equities bounce back significantly when the worst is eventually over and by this time those who moved their money out lose out on the recovery.


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## tesoruccio

I put 30,000 into Evergreen S9 in Oct06. Same story was in for the minimum 5 years. Now, with what's going on I would prefer to cut my losses. Any advice?


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## shipibo

Tes,


     No easy way to put this , withdrew my own money ....


     Tried to find detailed breakdown of fund, ask why fund had lost 30+% in a year, and what was being done to reverse this ....

      Got no answers.


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## Karuna

Hi,
I also put money into the evergreen fund in sept 06 in Bank of Ireland, I was informed that I would be guaranteed what I put in, back. It is in an ivestment package for 6yrs which means i only get penalised if I withdraw before then but i have no plans to do that. I would love to have this confirmed please, is there a chance i could lose all the money I invested?? I am not in Ireland at present, Im living in germany and quite worried about this because I can't withdraw since Im not at home.
I appreciate any advice, thanks.


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## NorthDrum

Karuna said:


> Hi,
> I also put money into the evergreen fund in sept 06 in Bank of Ireland, I was informed that I would be guaranteed what I put in, back. It is in an ivestment package for 6yrs which means i only get penalised if I withdraw before then but i have no plans to do that. I would love to have this confirmed please, is there a chance i could lose all the money I invested?? I am not in Ireland at present, Im living in germany and quite worried about this because I can't withdraw since Im not at home.
> I appreciate any advice, thanks.



Check your policy conditions. There is a Guaranteed Evergreen fund policy (im not sure it was around in 2006 though.

If it is not a guaranteed policy then you might want to consider contacting the financial ombudsman *if you were definantly told that it was guaranteed and you purchased the product based on this guarantee.*

I would suggest firstly contacting the Bank that you bought the policy from (have all your details available, they will want some personal details to confirm you are who you say you are).

If the policy is not guaranteed then there is always a chance you could lose all the money you invested. I would think that the policy has gone down significantly in value since 2006 considering the troubles there are in the marketplace.

The banks in Ireland have a state guarantee (at least at the moment) so there is no immediate risk that the bank will collapse (just in case you were worried about that).


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## NorthDrum

crumdub12 said:


> Tes,
> 
> 
> No easy way to put this , withdrew my own money ....
> 
> 
> Tried to find detailed breakdown of fund, ask why fund had lost 30+% in a year, and what was being done to reverse this ....
> 
> Got no answers.



Im not going to speak on the banks behalf or try to make excuses as to why the fund lost 30% in a year but I am sure you read the papers and see whats going on in the financial markets.

When you took out the policy did you ever consider the possibility that you were taking a risk? Im not being smart but people are all too happy to get very profitable returns when times are good and then complain when the inevitable happens and they start losing money.

If you want to make money with little or no risk put it on deposit, otherwise you are in essence taking a calclulated gamble.

The financial markets have gone through the worst crisis and falls we have ever seen. There are few, if any who could of predicted what has happened. So many differant things have happened (high oil prices, in ireland housing sector etc) that have all compounded our misery.

If the truth be told, you have been extremely unlucky in the timing that you got into the markets (assuming you invested in the last 3 years).


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## tesoruccio

Well, I'm going into the BOI tomorrow to see exactly how much I've lost. I will pull everything I have in BOI (current account included) depending on the reception I get.


----------



## LDFerguson

Karuna said:


> Hi,
> I also put money into the evergreen fund in sept 06 in Bank of Ireland, I was informed that I would be guaranteed what I put in, back. It is in an ivestment package for 6yrs which means i only get penalised if I withdraw before then but i have no plans to do that. I would love to have this confirmed please, is there a chance i could lose all the money I invested?? I am not in Ireland at present, Im living in germany and quite worried about this because I can't withdraw since Im not at home.
> I appreciate any advice, thanks.


 
The Guaranteed Evergreen fund was launched in 2005.  Check with Bank of Ireland that it is the guaranteed product you have.  If it is, your capital is guaranteed after 6 years.


----------



## tesoruccio

Does anyone have a link to check the price of the Evergreen S9? probably going to get out temporarily into smart cash fund @ 5.25% for first year and maybe jump back in when things turnaround. It's free to switch back and forth.


----------



## dandy

As I started this thread back in January I thought I would give an update
present value as at oct 15 €19,841 should have got out in Jan!


----------



## within29

My Aunt was advised by BOI to invest her total life savings in the fund which to me was just wrong. Husband had died, no reasons why letter was provided so I asked for a copy which should be due soon. Do you think she might have a case with the Financial Ombudsman. The sales man has moved on with his commission.


----------



## johnnygman

Again a very general query this is a long term managed fund and this would have had to be explained alonside the risks, if this was not done then perhaps she may have a case for an appeal due to mis selling, when did she invest in the fund and is she looking to withdraw?
The Evergreen is one of the better funds out there and has a very strong record
so id be cautious about exiting the fund if its only early days..
Financial advisers are supposed to ring fence a certain amount of funds for emergencies, are you saying that her entire funds were invested long term? difficult to comment on these type of cases without more info..


----------



## within29

She started the fund early last year & it has gone down by 1/3rd. The sum invested was the majority of her & her husbands savings & was to be used as an emergency fund. I feel that she was under the impression that it was a fixed term deposit a/c. She didn't understand what a fund was..How can these people can sleep at night.


----------



## johnnygman

It would certainly be difficult to confuse the 2, of course if its was up 1/3 then this would not be an issue ,but really no excuse for this kind of careless approach to her life savings.
A full financial factfind would also have been completed to determine the nature of the product suitable for her and her husbands needs, maybe worth making a complaint anyway, but she would have had to sign documentation to confirm she understood the long term nature and risks of this investment, although it is clearly not suitable as an emergency fund and should not be sold as such as should any managed fund that is her only hope of it being upheld i suspect.
On the flip side it is early days yet and if she is prepared to sit it out this is just at present a paper loss and may not be bourne out in the long run despite the present difficult market conditions. 
No guarantee on this of course but i would be of the opinion that it would be best left invested after such a heavy fall, and given sufficient time to recover which will no doubt be several years.


----------



## Bilberry

deleted now


----------



## Bilberry

deleted now


----------



## Bilberry

Sorry the finish of my last post on B of irel funds didn't appear properly. Just to let you guys out there know, I did get a mobile number of the boss in charge of bank of ireland fund managers in dublin and gave him a piece of my mind as to why our money was not being managed and now down wait for it 52% and 40% on some funds. Why no communication for twelve months with annual statment, why no advice after being paid to manage your fund so that you might actually cop it has been plummeting before you get your statement and give you an acutal chance to switch to a safer or stable fund. I was told, they don't meet or speak with members of the public, they are faceless fund managers, your local branch investment manager should meet with you once a year and of course will speak with you if you ring him. He agreed to meet us in Cork immediatedly given the seriousness of losing over half our money almost, to go through it with us.

He met us , told us we were given v bad advise from the local investment bank of ireland manager on what funds to invest in originally given our circumstances, and that the trilogy,evergreen and smart funds are so heavily exposed to commericall property , some are geared funds too within these , and also heavy investment within these funds in irish shares means these funds are going to continue to plummet downwards, He suggested we immediatedly switch to a cash fund and he will come back with suggestions next week as to how what we should do with the money left now .No apology as to bad fund management, no apology as to why they don't tell you your money is wasting away, nada except that it was up to us to ring if we wanted to know how it was doing sooner than a yearly statement, and we would go from here on once the rot has been halted .

Beware, get your money out of these funds now, the head of investments has told us too late for us I am afraid after losing over 200k to switch to cash unless you can wait seven years to hope it will recover with no guarantee.

GET OUT NOW, manage it yourself if you have to, you can't do worse than bank of ireland fund managers anyway. We will never invest with them again, and from now on, it will be manage our money ourselves and try to get an education in the meantime on how to self fund manage. Be Wary and don't get caught like us naive people who believed they knew what they were doing and getting paid instead to lose up to half your money.


----------



## johnnygman

Bilberry said:


> Sorry the finish of my last post on B of irel funds didn't appear properly. Just to let you guys out there know, I did get a mobile number of the boss in charge of bank of ireland fund managers in dublin and gave him a piece of my mind as to why our money was not being managed and now down wait for it 52% and 40% on some funds. Why no communication for twelve months with annual statment, why no advice after being paid to manage your fund so that you might actually cop it has been plummeting before you get your statement and give you an acutal chance to switch to a safer or stable fund. I was told, they don't meet or speak with members of the public, they are faceless fund managers, your local branch investment manager should meet with you once a year and of course will speak with you if you ring him. He agreed to meet us in Cork immediatedly given the seriousness of losing over half our money almost, to go through it with us.
> 
> He met us , told us we were given v bad advise from the local investment bank of ireland manager on what funds to invest in originally given our circumstances, and that the trilogy,evergreen and smart funds are so heavily exposed to commericall property , some are geared funds too within these , and also heavy investment within these funds in irish shares means these funds are going to continue to plummet downwards, He suggested we immediatedly switch to a cash fund and he will come back with suggestions next week as to how what we should do with the money left now .No apology as to bad fund management, no apology as to why they don't tell you your money is wasting away, nada except that it was up to us to ring if we wanted to know how it was doing sooner than a yearly statement, and we would go from here on once the rot has been halted .
> 
> Beware, get your money out of these funds now, the head of investments has told us too late for us I am afraid after losing over 200k to switch to cash unless you can wait seven years to hope it will recover with no guarantee.
> 
> GET OUT NOW, manage it yourself if you have to, you can't do worse than bank of ireland fund managers anyway. We will never invest with them again, and from now on, it will be manage our money ourselves and try to get an education in the meantime on how to self fund manage. Be Wary and don't get caught like us naive people who believed they knew what they were doing and getting paid instead to lose up to half your money.


 
With all due respect are you saying that you invested this kind of money without even knowing what kind of assets or risk that you were taking on, and of course the possibility that the fund could go down as well as up? of course no one expected the falls that we have seen but this seems to a recurring trend that no one here has a clue what they have invested in until after fund has fallen in value, i do not understand how careless and how little thought people have for their hard earned funds.
Its an expensive lesson if your pulling out now, are you confident you will be abe to recover these type of losses on your own or in a cash fund?
I think its unlikely, these funds are long term options best advice would not be to make a panic decision and to evaluate your chances of recoevery in present fund over the next number of years..


----------



## Dogsbody

johnnygman, I have to agree with you.Post after post looking for people to blame,pulling money from funds thereby ensuring this just gets worse and worse.Mad mad mad.Calm down everybody!


----------



## shipibo

johnnygman said:


> With all due respect are you saying that you invested this kind of money without even knowing what kind of assets or risk that you were taking on, and of course the possibility that the fund could go down as well as up? of course no one expected the falls that we have seen but this seems to a recurring trend that no one here has a clue what they have invested in until after fund has fallen in value, i do not understand how careless and how little thought people have for their hard earned funds.
> Its an expensive lesson if your pulling out now, are you confident you will be abe to recover these type of losses on your own or in a cash fund?
> I think its unlikely, these funds are long term options best advice would not be to make a panic decision and to evaluate your chances of recoevery in present fund over the next number of years..



You say stay in, why not sell , let it drop further, and if you still feel its a good fund (its not in my opinion) buy back at a lower price ??

Too many people giving advice to stick with little understanding of specific fund in thread


----------



## mercman

After reading the Posts of Johnnygman and Bilberry and others it is very difficult to blame the Fund Managers for the downward movement of World Markets. However I have a very significant amount invested with BoI through their subsidiary New Ireland. Did you all know that Bank of Ireland Life is a Tied Agent of New Ireland ?? Did you all know that if you invest in the same funds through New Ireland rather than BoI Life you can get a better investment deal ?? Did you all know that New Ireland investment products are offered on better terms by Non-Tied agents for which they are fully aware but do not bother to advise their customers ?? So if you go to the Bank to invest and they advise you they are giving you the best deal available do not believe them. You are better shopping around.

I presently have two cases with the Financial Ombudsman against this  organisation which will then be referred to the Regulator. I have spent 18 months trying to sort out a mess with an original offer in writing but was then refused after they had my money. However I was offered to enact the original deal in writing from their Tied Agent if I paid him a CASH FEE. The main office then sent me figures to show I was on a better deal than the original deal in writing. The figures were false which is totally contrary to the Consumer Code. I could write a book about this and intend in making the entire story public as soon as I can.

We are all reading concerning the mistakes the Banks made in relation to their lending book. What has happened to me is an occurrence of disgrace, for which the largest provider of lump sum investments in Ireland seems to acting in a very irregular manner.

So to all those that have invested or intend to invest large lump sums be very careful and do not believe by going to a Bank directly will post the best deal. Be very careful.


----------



## johnnygman

crumdub12 said:


> You say stay in, why not sell , let it drop further, and if you still feel its a good fund (its not in my opinion) buy back at a lower price ??
> 
> Too many people giving advice to stick with little understanding of specific fund in thread


 
With respect my friend i happen to have a very good & detailed knowledge of the breakdown on this fund/assets/spreads etc.. the fact it is relatively heavily weighted in UK commercial property is working against it at present/(price sterling/downgrade assets)obviously equity content struggling also. Though if this fund has not been one of the better/best funds on the Irish Market then i must be seriously misguided (The 14th annual MoneyMate and Investor Magazine Awards today (Friday, 23rd March 2007) awarded New Ireland's Evergreen Fund the title of Best Balanced Managed Investment Fund and Best Balanced Managed Pension Fund in the Irish market.)

What you are essentially suggesting is that this person crystalize their loss and then try to time the market, surely you are not advising the investor now to start gambling with their hardearned and break the fundemental rules of a long term investor.

Again my advice is only that, you may have your own ideas, but im pretty sure that the majority of people who have any experience of investing for the long term will agree with me despite the current difficulties which are of course worrying, but the fundamental investment rational has not changed has it?

Again this is nothing personal we are all feeling the pain at present.


----------



## GSheehy

crumdub12 said:


> You say stay in, why not sell , let it drop further, and if you still feel its a good fund (its not in my opinion) buy back at a lower price ??


 
If Revenue allowed you to offset losses against gains on unit-linked policies, this would possibly be an option. But they don't, so this transaction would make no sense. 

You would get hit with any gains on the 'new' policy (lower amount invested) @ 23% (2008) / 26% (from 01/01/2009) when a 'chargeable event' (eg.surrender,partial encashment, 8th policy anniversary) took place.


----------



## shipibo

GSheehy said:


> If Revenue allowed you to offset losses against gains on unit-linked policies, this would possibly be an option. But they don't, so this transaction would make no sense.
> 
> You would get hit with any gains on the 'new' policy (lower amount invested) @ 23% (2008) / 26% (from 01/01/2009) when a 'chargeable event' (eg.surrender,partial encashment, 8th policy anniversary) took place.




Most people have lost money on initial outlay, so no capital gains involved


----------



## shipibo

johnnygman said:


> With respect my friend i happen to have a very good & detailed knowledge of the breakdown on this fund/assets/spreads etc.. the fact it is relatively heavily weighted in UK commercial property is working against it at present/(price sterling/downgrade assets)obviously equity content struggling also. Though if this fund has not been one of the better/best funds on the Irish Market then i must be seriously misguided (The 14th annual MoneyMate and Investor Magazine Awards today (Friday, 23rd March 2007) awarded New Ireland's Evergreen Fund the title of Best Balanced Managed Investment Fund and Best Balanced Managed Pension Fund in the Irish market.)
> 
> What you are essentially suggesting is that this person crystalize their loss and then try to time the market, surely you are not advising the investor now to start gambling with their hardearned and break the fundemental rules of a long term investor.
> 
> Again my advice is only that, you may have your own ideas, but im pretty sure that the majority of people who have any experience of investing for the long term will agree with me despite the current difficulties which are of course worrying, but the fundamental investment rational has not changed has it?
> 
> Again this is nothing personal we are all feeling the pain at present.




Thanks for the info,

                      To hang on would assume that UK Commercial property will bounce back, if thats your assumption , hang on in ....


                    By long term , I assume (maybe wrongly) you are talking 10+ years ....


----------



## johnnygman

crumdub12 said:


> Thanks for the info,
> 
> To hang on would assume that UK Commercial property will bounce back, if thats your assumption , hang on in ....
> 
> 
> By long term , I assume (maybe wrongly) you are talking 10+ years ....


 

Your welcome i think its fair to say you needed it.
I also think its fair to say the whole point of my post has been lost on you even the bit about Sterlings weakness against the euro"being a large reason for the current poor performance of the Uk commercial property asset, in that i dont think this will continue over the longer term, you have provided no rational for your advice and seem to have no understanding about managed funds or the current difficulties the markets are experiencing.
Judging by the history of your previous threads and posts you are not someone who has shown any interest in this type of area to any regular degree.There are now alot of  armchair Eamon Dunphy's out there, similiar to the type who knew everything about the propertry market up until recently but who have now gone quiet and have switched expertise to the financial markets without having any rational behind the move only that they are hearing alot about it and feel they have a right make themselves and their ideas heard.
You might want to make a case for your advice before you get to worked up, remember you are advising people on sometimes their entire life savings as seen here and if you have no reason for advising people to encash? then do everyone a favour and put away your crystal ball.
Don't take this to heart my friend i am just speaking my mind here.


----------



## mercman

crumdub12, better still why don't you pick another fund run by another fund manager.


----------



## LDFerguson

crumdub12 said:


> You say stay in, why not sell , let it drop further, and if you still feel its a good fund (its not in my opinion) buy back at a lower price ??





crumdub12 said:


> Most people have lost money on initial outlay, so no capital gains involved


 
If I invested €10,000 in a fund last year and it's now worth €7,000 but I'm happy to stick with it, I'd be mad to cash in and re-invest, even if I could do so without transaction charges. 

If I leave it where it is and it recovers to €12,000, I only pay Exit Tax on the €2,000 gain. 

If I cash it in and re-invest the €7,000 now and it too rises to €12,000, I pay Exit Tax on €5,000 of a gain.


----------



## shipibo

johnnygman said:


> Your welcome i think its fair to say you needed it.
> I also think its fair to say the whole point of my post has been lost on you even the bit about Sterlings weakness against the euro"being a large reason for the current poor performance of the Uk commercial property asset, in that i dont think this will continue over the longer term, you have provided no rational for your advice and seem to have no understanding about managed funds or the current difficulties the markets are experiencing.
> Judging by the history of your previous threads and posts you are not someone who has shown any interest in this type of area to any regular degree.There are now alot of  armchair Eamon Dunphy's out there, similiar to the type who knew everything about the propertry market up until recently but who have now gone quiet and have switched expertise to the financial markets without having any rational behind the move only that they are hearing alot about it and feel they have a right make themselves and their ideas heard.
> You might want to make a case for your advice before you get to worked up, remember you are advising people on sometimes their entire life savings as seen here and if you have no reason for advising people to encash? then do everyone a favour and put away your crystal ball.
> Don't take this to heart my friend i am just speaking my mind here.




Johnny,

            Still lookin for answers to why this fund will recover, hopefully you can provide them, and maybe a timeframe.

          I pulled my money out, and have stated that.

            I,m not the one getting worked up ..


----------



## shipibo

mercman said:


> crumdub12, better still why don't you pick another fund run by another fund manager.




I have


----------



## shipibo

LDFerguson said:


> If I invested €10,000 in a fund last year and it's now worth €7,000 but I'm happy to stick with it, I'd be mad to cash in and re-invest, even if I could do so without transaction charges.
> 
> If I leave it where it is and it recovers to €12,000, I only pay Exit Tax on the €2,000 gain.
> 
> If I cash it in and re-invest the €7,000 now and it too rises to €12,000, I pay Exit Tax on €5,000 of a gain.




Would the capital loss of first policy not be taken into account ?? , this is a genuine question.


----------



## johnnygman

crumdub12 said:


> Johnny,
> 
> Still lookin for answers to why this fund will recover, hopefully you can provide them, and maybe a timeframe.
> 
> I pulled my money out, and have stated that.
> 
> I,m not the one getting worked up ..


 
I am not a fund manager for NEW Ireland or BOI or any other fund and have no intersted in whether it does recover or not,trying to be objective here. its fair to say you have no understanding of the markets or the fund and have shown that in what you have already posted, try reading my replies and responding with fair comment instead of repeating yourself, ill add this in just to make it more obvious what one of my points was.
I do not have a crystal ball though so ill leave the guessing game up to yourself you obv have a chip on your shoulder about this fund as you lost money i assume and have lost objectivity.

Quote from earlier "I also think its fair to say the whole point of my post has been lost on you even the bit about Sterlings weakness against the euro being a large reason for the current poor performance of the Uk commercial property asset, in that i dont think this will continue over the longer term"


----------



## mercman

crumdub, have a look at my post of the ther day at,, www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=95334&goto=newpost. Now there's a good enough reason to shop around.


----------



## johnnygman

mercman said:


> crumdub, have a look at my post of the ther day at,, www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=95334&goto=newpost. Now there's a good enough reason to shop around.


 
How is that related to the performance/potential of this fund though?
The 2 issues are completely seperate and are not really comparable.


----------



## mercman

But they are indirectly. On reading what happened in my case, would you be inclined to invest with such a company  ????


----------



## johnnygman

mercman said:


> But they are indirectly. On reading what happened in my case, would you be inclined to invest with such a company ????


 
Is this a case of ethics or fund performance? totally seperate  you can hardly blame the recless action of this sales employee on the fund managers at New Ireland.
Again would you not be better leaving these issues on the side until you have proven your case an can back up these claims not that i am saying they are without fact though..


----------



## LDFerguson

crumdub12 said:


> Would the capital loss of first policy not be taken into account ?? , this is a genuine question.


 
No, Exit Tax doesn't work like Capital Gains Tax in that respect.  You could cash in ten policies at a loss and one policy at a gain.  You'll pay the Exit Tax on the one policy that made a gain and the losses on the ten others won't be taken into account.  Each policy is taxed in isolation.


----------



## mercman

Both do run hand in hand. The fund management could well be Top Brass but the those that handle the money are as important. I have no problem in the back up -- I'm not that stupid to put in writing something which could not be backed up. It's with the Ombudsman at present and then to go to the Regulator. Will be a while as under present circumstances things are somewhat busy. If I chose the legal route it will take 2 years minimum.


----------



## johnnygman

mercman said:


> Both do run hand in hand. The fund management could well be Top Brass but the those that handle the money are as important. I have no problem in the back up -- I'm not that stupid to put in writing something which could not be backed up. It's with the Ombudsman at present and then to go to the Regulator. Will be a while as under present circumstances things are somewhat busy. If I chose the legal route it will take 2 years minimum.


 
To be fair this is not what the thread was getting at and best left at that.
Good luck with your complaint.


----------



## shipibo

johnnygman said:


> I am not a fund manager for NEW Ireland or BOI or any other fund and have no intersted in whether it does recover or not,trying to be objective here. its fair to say you have no understanding of the markets or the fund and have shown that in what you have already posted, try reading my replies and responding with fair comment instead of repeating yourself, ill add this in just to make it more obvious what one of my points was.
> I do not have a crystal ball though so ill leave the guessing game up to yourself you obv have a chip on your shoulder about this fund as you lost money i assume and have lost objectivity.
> 
> Quote from earlier "I also think its fair to say the whole point of my post has been lost on you even the bit about Sterlings weakness against the euro being a large reason for the current poor performance of the Uk commercial property asset, in that i dont think this will continue over the longer term"



Touchy, Touchy Johnny ....


      Was,nt looking to bait you, just looking for a ballpark timeframe for recovery in your opinion.


----------



## shipibo

LDFerguson said:


> No, Exit Tax doesn't work like Capital Gains Tax in that respect.  You could cash in ten policies at a loss and one policy at a gain.  You'll pay the Exit Tax on the one policy that made a gain and the losses on the ten others won't be taken into account.  Each policy is taxed in isolation.




Thanks LD,


    You learn something new every day


----------



## shipibo

mercman said:


> crumdub, have a look at my post of the ther day at,, www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=95334&goto=newpost. Now there's a good enough reason to shop around.




Seen your post, all the best ..


----------



## forest 13

i would also sugest you keep putting in the €130 a month. Question is how much can you afford to loose. If you dont need the money in a hurry better to hold out as the market will improve long term

By the way i am putting €1000 a month into the fund. I am debating whether to recuce the repayments so I can invest in the housing market instead. However I will loose my 7 yr  loyalty bonus which still has 5 yrs left. Any advice


----------



## finty

Hi,


just discovered that an Investment Manager in BOI sold my parents over 20grands worth of this fund in June 2007. this money was my dads lump sum from his retirement. I cant believe that a financial advisor would recommend, knowing the details of my parents situation (both in their 60s), investing in shares!! They've lost half the money so far, as far as I can see. 

Do you think this is a case for the financial ombudsman?  I'm Livid and my mother is in an awful state.


----------



## within29

Hi Finty

My widowed Aunt was sold the same. Invested a 6 figured sum- all she had-. I've decided to take it to the FO after I have contacted the bank.


----------



## within29

Hi Finty

Got the number of the guy who sold her the policy & rang him. He is in a different branch but is coming down to meet me. Told him her solicitor advised her to get in touch with him before she sends letter to his HO-no solicitor-bold girl me. Anyway v much looking forward to meeting him & exchanging viewpoints.


----------



## mercman

The Financial Ombudsman will only look at the matter after you have got a Final Response Letter from the provider. In the cases you have outlined there are different perceptions. However before I deal with each one separately, the only credance I will offer to those that sold the Policies is to question as to how were they supposed to know the markets were going to drop as much as they did ?? They could not of known. 

Flinty in you case the Bank will answer that your father was fully aware of what he was investing in.  Was he offered any discounted Management Fee or Allocation Bonus ?  Now saying this the fund is likely to recover somewhat over time. Maybe not the full amount but time usually makes up the losses eventually.

Within29. If your Aunty invested a six figure amount was she offered a choice of funds to invest in ?? Was she offered an Allocation Bonus or reduced Management Fee ?? 

The funds that are sold by BoI are New Ireland Funds and are in most cases the same. However BoI Life are Tied Agents of New Ireland, but if you invest in New Ireland you are more likely to get a better deal from New Ireland than BoI Life. Better still if you go an untied broker you are more than likely going to receive an even better deal. Both NI and BoI Life who control the funds are fully aware of these facts but do not advise the clients of any of these situations.

In my case I was offered a deal in writing from NI and then gave them my money and they then refused me the deal I was offered. But their agent told me in writing that he would get me the deal if I paid him a fee. We are talking  about a significant amount of investment and I have spent 18 months trying to sort this mess out. If you saw the lies I have in writing you would be amazed. I will strongly advise (and I will as these stupid people put so many things in writing) either to try and move your money to others or for others reading this to invest elsewhere. You are dealing with Bandits simple as that and I am awaiting for the Ombudsman to revert to me. The main reason I have gone to them is that they are quicker than the Courts.

Regardless of what the Ombudsman finds I intend in spending a significant amount advising the Public of this incredible carry on. By the way they asked me what I wanted and I told them I simply wanted my money back. They refused so I will wait - I don't mind, but their lack of dealing with me will cost them a hell of a lot more in the long run.

BoI Life and New Ireland -- Pure Chancers. There are many other investment firms that are more honest and credible. And as per Flintys case and Within29, whose parents and Aunty invested their retirement fund, their circumstance were ignored and it does appear the only matter important was the Commission for the Agent selling.


----------



## mercman

Just to report that the Financial Services Ombudsman determined on this case in mid June. As New Ireland have not launched an appeal, I will be, as previously stated providing the details of the Ombudsman's report and the cost to New Ireland. No settlement has been forthcoming from NI, but after waiting 32 months (2 years 8 months) for some justice, it will happen. I will post the findings as soon as my solicitor has given the OK to the findings and to avoid litigation.


----------



## Sumatra

Mercman, I think in making a decision the ombudsman must have regard to the rules guidance and statements of good insurrance practice. Now I'd like to ask the forum if this takes precedence over the strict legal position? My understanding is you as a claimant are not bound by a decision but NIA as a member is - as far as I know.


----------



## insider

mydosh I think Clubman has given you very valid advice with regards to time in the market. Also please, please do not just question the biased nature of bank investment staff but also their level of competetnce.

I think its important that you leave your money invested in the market although its very important you look at what your invested in.  Evergreen is a fund I'm a big sceptic of and really do not like. Few of the regional managers outperform and its composition is very dated(huge exposure to irish equity and property). Get some really indepepndent advice and give your money the best chance possible of benefitting from any upswing.


----------



## mercman

Sumatra said:


> My understanding is you as a claimant are not bound by a decision but NIA as a member is - as far as I know.



No incorrect. Late last week, my solicitors got notice that New Ireland were to appeal against the Ombudsman's determination. No reason has been forthcoming, but no doubt some incredible excuse will occur.


----------



## anyanswers

Can anyone tell me how the S4 Evergreen product works in terms of the number of share units you get for your monthly installment? 

Has anyone received a detailed statement showing exactly how many "shares" their monthly investment bought? Is it possible to track your investment in terms of "shares" and their values?

I have never received much detail from BOI.

Thanks for any help.


----------



## mercman

anyanswers said:


> Is it possible to track your investment in terms of "shares" and their values?
> 
> I have never received much detail from BOI.




The originator of the Evergreen Fund is New Ireland Assurance, a subsidiary of the BoI. Unless you continually pester the BoI and New Ireland, they won't release much information on the fund apart from the basics. You might have to ask the Regulator on the scope of the info investors are allowed to have. There are so many questions and queries in relation to this fund and  the family of funds, I find it amazing that Joe Public continually invest in these funds rather than shopping for the best deal from an Investment firm that relishes their customer base rather than one which has leaves many questions.


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## PMU

anyanswers said:


> Has anyone received a detailed statement showing exactly how many "shares" their monthly investment bought?
> I have never received much detail from BOI.


 It is my understanding that under MFID regulations investment firms are required to notify their clients each year of the value of the fund, number of units held, etc.  I’ve received such information from the financial institutions in Ireland.


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