# Family grave query



## sublime1 (7 Jan 2020)

Our family have had a family plot in a country graveyard in the west of Ireland, since at least the 1960s. My grandparents are buried there, and a number of their siblings, and my parents always referred to it as the family plot, where they assumed to be buried themselves. Fortunately there haven't been any family deaths since the 1980s. Recently, a cousin passed away, and our family got a shock when we were told that as nobody has the deeds to the grave, we would have to pay to use the grave. My father says that, nobody mentioned grave deeds the last time the grave was used (as I mentioned, this was a long time ago in the 1980s). It was simply common knowledge (among the locals, the priests, the undertakers) that this was our family's grave. Understandably times have changed, and now the county council are managing the plots. They are saying that they need evidence of our entitlement. As it has been so long since the last burial, many locals have since passed away, but the undertaker and caretaker have both confirmed that they know that this is our family grave.

Does anyone know what steps we can take to convince the council of our entitlement to this grave? Shouldn't the council be more sympathetic if it is true that back in the 1980s, grave deeds were not needed, as local knowledge sufficed, and that there was an understanding of entitlements. Does anyone know when grave deeds became mandatory to prove ownership?

Thanks in advance for any advice.


----------



## sublime1 (7 Jan 2020)

A follow up question. Incredibly the local parish have no record of the burials of either of my grandparents, only of one of my grand-uncles. Somebody obviously messed up at the time of their deaths, but it's pretty amazing that neither of them are recorded. We even tried a neighbouring parish just in case it was in their books by mistake. Does anyone know if there are any other sources of records either online or paper?


----------



## Susie2017 (7 Jan 2020)

Don't think deeds are absolutely mandatory or even issued. The councils generally employ a local caretaker who keeps the details of who owns what spaces etc on a map of plots and what fees were paid historically. Contact the local undertaker who will know who keeps the register for the graveyard. Is there a headstone as this might help establish ownership. There is an online grave register not sure of the website. But the undertaker is the person I would contact in the first instance.


----------



## sublime1 (7 Jan 2020)

Thanks. Yes, we spoke to the caretaker who verbally confirmed that it was our family plot, but bizarrely wouldn't put anything in writing. It's unclear to me the relationship between the caretaker and the council - would they be an employee of the council?
The undertaker was helpful and gave us a letter stating that they had buried my grandparents in that cemetery, but I'm not sure how official that is.


----------



## Thirsty (7 Jan 2020)

The undertakers letter will be helpful, and I assume the gravestone will have their names also?

In any event, there is a charge for opening an existing grave, and there's usually a limit on how many burials are allowed per site.

There isn't a 'deed' as such, but I have documents for the graves of two family members that were issued at the time of purchase.


----------



## sublime1 (7 Jan 2020)

Oh yes, the gravestones have their names. Council didn't seem too impressed with that. They even suggested that we may have to disinter the grave and do DNA testing. Less than helpful.


----------



## noproblem (8 Jan 2020)

What happens if you decide to go ahead and bury your relation in the grave? Can you rely on neighbours to dig the grave, the undertaker to do the funeral and if you are that way inclined, the priest to carry out the ceremony? If so, what are the council going to do about it? There are hiundreds of communities in your situation but the dead are still buried. We have a family plot but never heard of there being deeds for it and we've buried 2 brothers after our parents died. Our grandparents, with their 5 children (all adults) are buried in another grave and never heard of a deed for it. In fact I'm certain there's none and the council have taken over the graveyard many years ago.


----------



## Leper (8 Jan 2020)

You need to talk to the parish priest (I'm not kidding). The grave-yard caretaker probably will deal only with the PP and county council.


----------



## sublime1 (8 Jan 2020)

Parish priest is new - he doesn't really know the history. All the old priests are long gone.


----------



## Thirsty (8 Jan 2020)

@noproblem - you need permission to open a grave; undertaker normally takes care of it.


----------



## DirectDevil (8 Jan 2020)

My late mother purchased a grave in Shanganah in the 1980s - you didn't need a body then to buy a grave.
She got an official receipt but never any other formal title documents.
My father died subsequently. My mother just gave the undertakers the grave reference number and that was all about it.
When my mother died recently I did likewise with the same undertakers and that was in order too.

What the local authority is doing to OP is putting the entire onus of proof on to them of ownership which is a bit lazy and loutish.
You do need to establish entitlement to burial in that plot but the local authority here is indeed very unhelpful.
I would make all reasonable attempts to sort this out but if I got much more trouble I would consider reporting the local authority to the Ombudsman as they are subject to the jurisdiction of that office.

The suggestion of an exhumation and DNA testing is outrageous.
That sounds like the machination of an obstructive local authority idiot who spends too much time watching CSI wherever.
An exhumation procedure can be legally complex, logistically convoluted to execute in all respects and potentially costly.

Rather than being run around in endless circles by them I would ask the local authority the following ;

1. What exactly do you require of me formally to establish entitlement to the plot ?
2. What specific form(s) of evidence would you want from me to deal with 1 above ?
3. What steps have you taken to search your records or those of the predecessor owners of the graveyard for the relevant data ?


----------



## Sue Ellen (8 Jan 2020)

Might not be a runner at all but maybe have a word with local funeral undertaker who must come across this situation on a regular basis.  Perhaps they can give you some advice as to what has happened to other people in this situation.  Whole thing seems very strange especially the DNA aspect.  Sounds like a right money spinner for Council.


----------



## DirectDevil (8 Jan 2020)

P.S. I have been directed to this page for a summary of what goes as far as an exhumation is concerned
LINK





						Exhumation of the remains of a deceased person
					

Rules governing the exhumation of the remains of a deceased    person in Ireland and how to apply for an exhumation licence.




					www.citizensinformation.ie


----------



## PMU (8 Jan 2020)

sublime1 said:


> . Does anyone know when grave deeds became mandatory to prove ownership?


Take a look at this post. https://askaboutmoney.com/threads/grandparents-grave.208946/#post-1576145


----------



## DirectDevil (8 Jan 2020)

Incidentally, I have seen one cemetery - no name - reusing old graves where there has been no burial for years.
The local authority here might be on an exercise to see what graves they can free up and may be trying to regularise ownership.

BTW it would be interesting to see the title deeds of a grave. The first thing I would be looking to see would be if the title was leasehold or freehold ! If leasehold what would be the term of years or how would determination of the leasehold interest be defined ? I would almost expect the title to be leasehold as that would allow recycling of graves....... no wonder people are going for cremation.


----------



## noproblem (8 Jan 2020)

Thirsty said:


> @noproblem - you need permission to open a grave; undertaker normally takes care of it.



Well, for what it's worth and it may differ elsewhere,  a couple of years ago my brother died and was cremated. We had a full ceremony for him in the church and afterwards he was interred in my parents grave. Ok, it wasn't a coffin,  we opened the grave ourselves also closed it. We asked no one beforehand and yes, the council are the people in charge. Have heard nothing since either. Not worried in any case if we hear or not.


----------



## SparkRite (8 Jan 2020)

noproblem said:


> Well, for what it's worth and it may differ elsewhere,  a couple of years ago my brother died and was cremated. We had a full ceremony for him in the church and afterwards he was interred in my parents grave. Ok, it wasn't a coffin,  we opened the grave ourselves also closed it. We asked no one beforehand and yes, the council are the people in charge. Have heard nothing since either. Not worried in any case if we hear or not.



We did the EXACT same with a sibling of mine.
Said nowt to nobody and got the inscription added to the headstone.
No repercussions at all, and that was a few years ago now.


----------



## llgon (8 Jan 2020)

The most effective way to deal with this is to befriend a local county councillor who I think should be able to sort it out for you. That's generally how it works with the rural councils.


----------



## noproblem (8 Jan 2020)

Person wants to bury a relative in the family grave and he's being told to befriend a local councillor to do so. That's just absolutely ridiculous, how low does one have to go? I'd rather be left above ground.


----------



## llgon (8 Jan 2020)

noproblem said:


> That's just absolutely ridiculous



Agree with you on this but that's life. Parish pump politics are alive and well. Have you ever heard of the Healy Rae's?


----------



## noproblem (9 Jan 2020)

llgon said:


> Agree with you on this but that's life. Parish pump politics are alive and well. Have you ever heard of the Healy Rae's?


Yes I have and have great respect for them. Why blame the politicians? I'd love to see a link to what you're talking about but I guess that's not possible? Or is it just YOU who thinks one should do this?


----------



## llgon (9 Jan 2020)

I don't know if anyone else agrees with my advice but it's up to the OP whether to follow up on it, I don't mind. The problem appears to be with the council. In my experience most rural councillors will be happy to help in matters like this as it helps them get votes. Along with attending funerals it's their bread and butter. It's probably different in urban areas, I don't know.  

The chances are that in this instance the local councillor will know the parish priest, the undertaker, the graveyard caretaker and the council staff and will have the greatest chance of sorting it.

I'm not blaming the politicians, they're doing what's needed to be re-elected. It's how people vote that leads to this, that's democracy.


----------



## llgon (9 Jan 2020)

noproblem said:


> I'd love to see a link to what you're talking about but I guess that's not possible?



A debate amongst councillors over policy in a graveyard. Gardai were called:









						Councillors reverse 2018 grave decision
					

There was plenty of heated debate at Thursday's (26th) meeting of Wicklow Municipal District as Councillors discussed the lawn grave policy in operation at Rathnew Cemetery.




					www.independent.ie


----------

