# Probate using Solicitor costing € 40,000



## jumper1

Hi,

Parent died in October and left just land and house in a will to 4 siblings. In will I was declared executor of will. Engaged solicitor that held will to do probate nothing written no word of charges mentioned, i know silly me, but with siblings involved it was best to keep at arms length and i did not want to deal with things at that time. Solicitor now in position to draw down probate

Got letter today from Solicitor 19-feb that he forgot to quote me his price and asked me to sign and return agreement that i agree to charges of 2.5% of estate plus other costs that may be involved.

This would add up to 40,000 euro 

Do people think this is very excessive I certainly do as this is a years Salary for most people.?

Is it possible to negotiate fees as he never told me what they would be in the first place. 

Regards Jumper1


----------



## ClubMan

*Re: Probate using Solicitor costing 40,000 Euro*

What is the breakdown of the €40K? If you don't have it then ask for it. I presume that it's not all the solicitor's professional probate fee?


----------



## jumper1

*Re: Probate using Solicitor costing 40,000 Euro*

Hi Clubman, 

Yes this is just for Solicitors work carried out on Estate . Bill relating to estate have been paid seperate and any other fees including cost of probate are extra


Regards, Jumper1


----------



## ClubMan

*Re: Probate using Solicitor costing 40,000 Euro*

Anything useful among ?

Do you have any idea of how simple or complex the case was? I thought that c. 1% was a more common ball park figure but obviously prices vary and might also depend on the complexity or otherwise of a specific case.


----------



## mf1

*Re: Probate using Solicitor costing 40,000 Euro*

It is high. He should have discussed fees in advance. You should certainly ask for a very substantial discount unless there are other reasons ( i.e. seriously complex tax issues) etc.,etc that warrant the fee.  

Yes, you can negotiate.

mf


----------



## Seagull

*Re: Probate using Solicitor costing 40,000 Euro*

How straightforward is the estate? If it's very simple, it might be worth asking to be billed on a time basis, rather than a percentage.


----------



## Madangan

*Re: Probate using Solicitor costing 40,000 Euro*

€ 40,000 if fee alone would mean estate is circa €1.6 million. If it includes vat at 21% it would mean estate is circa €1.3 million. and fees charged of say €33000.

€40,000 may include outlays as well as vat  but even still fee seems excessive. I certainly would love to get a few of trhose fees each year, twould keep me going quite nicely.

Is the fee inclusive of say a sale as well as the extracting of probate and administration of estate, you need to give a bit more detail. However the fee does certainly seem excessive unless there is information which the op has not given as yet.


----------



## jumper1

*Probate using Solicitor costing 40,000 Euro*

Hi , 

Yes estate is 1.6 million. don’t know if 40,000 includes Vat.

Any outlays are on top of Fees of 40,000, cost of probate, writing to banks for closing balance of Bank Accounts, paying bills, etc is extra.  

(a) I gave solicitor all Bank Account details all he had to do was write to them 

(b) i carried out valuation of estate and gave to solicitor

(c) Estate is being transferred to people as per will. no disputes on will  

(e) Fees with regard to payment of CGT if applicable are separate 

(f) Gave all bills to be paid to solicitor, just had to pay them 

(g) All Cheques due on my Parent estate being paid into Solicitors account until everything finalised.

(h) All tax issues being finalised separately by Accountant not associated with Solicitor

(i) Land or house are not being sold just transferred to persons stated on will .

Solicitor said everything was very straight forward and no complications 

I have, i know its a bit late , rang up other Solicitors and they have quoted me between 3,000 to 8,000 Plus Vat .

As Regards this Section 68 Amendment, does it have any punch or is it just for show i.e if as a last resort i were to go to the Law Society would they say "that i had been informed within a reasonable amount of time (4 months later) and it was my fault as i did not ask for a Price at the start ".

Would the Solicitor laugh at me if i threatened him and demand the money anyway.

Regards, Jumper1


----------



## mf1

*Re: Probate using Solicitor costing 40,000 Euro*

You really should try and negotiate. Frankly,  3000 is very cheap - I'd say much too cheap. It perhaps suggests someone who does not comprehend the level of work involved.    8-15K is probably far more realistic.  But that would be for a small - medium size firm. If it is a bigger firm, they do charge more but equally should have systems in place so that a client knows the level of fees anticipated.

It is very late in the day - I assume a lot of the work has been done. And yes, you really should have asked before handing the work over. Equally, the solicitor should have  been far more upfront about fees. 

Do remember that people on here are only going on the very limited information you have provided. But this might be a case of significant overcharging and the Law Society would investigate if you did go down that route.

Far better  to try and deal with it before it ever gets to that stage. 

mf


----------



## Marie

*Probate using Solicitor costing 40,000 Euro*



jumper1 said:


> Hi Clubman,
> 
> Yes this is just for Solicitors work carried out on Estate . Bill relating to estate have been paid seperate and any other fees including cost of probate are extra
> 
> 
> Regards, Jumper1


 
Hi Jumper!  Work on the estate issue and probate are one and the same beast!........'probate' is a posh name for ensuring the deceased person's property is distributed in accordance with their wishes.

You should definitely request (I don't think you need to threaten, as you mentioned!!   )a breakdown of the charge.  If that is not forthcoming then as mf (who I seem to remember is a solicitor?) suggests, tell this person you cannot agree to payment on the basis he is (retrospectively!!!!) suggesting as its too much.  

I had two experiences of Irish probate solicitors.  The first was a complicated will with a naeve Executor and in excess of 25 beneficiaries dispersed across the globe.  That particular solicitor was impeccable!  Everyone was kept informed of the progress of the business, which was quickly and efficiently done and everything was communicated and explained from the word go.  Given the amount of work the fee seemed very reasonable.

The second experience which was probate on my late mother's estate and where I was a Joint Executrix was a costly farce which makes me upset and angry even to think about.  After a bereavement people don't usually have the energy or mindset to seek redress which in these cases is lengthy and can be (in its turn!) expensive.  

You are the customer for a service and you need to say what you want.  All the best with it!


----------



## Brendan Burgess

*Re: Probate using Solicitor costing 40,000 Euro*

What stage is the solicitor at?

Can you move to a different solicitor? 

Brendan


----------



## ClubMan

*Re: Probate using Solicitor costing 40,000 Euro*



Brendan said:


> What stage is the solicitor at?
> 
> Can you move to a different solicitor?
> 
> Brendan


Does this not clarify what stage things are at?


jumper1 said:


> Solicitor now in position to draw down probate


----------



## twofor1

*Re: Probate using Solicitor costing 40,000 Euro*



> Yes estate is 1.6 million. don’t know if 40,000 includes Vat.
> 
> (g) All Cheques due on my Parent estate being paid into Solicitors account until everything finalised.


 
€1.6 million @ 4.5% would earn €6K interest monthly.

Does this interest go into the estate ?

Or does the Solicitor get the benefit of it ?


----------



## mercman

*Re: Probate using Solicitor costing 40,000 Euro*

Jumper1 - Refer to my many posts in relation to the legal fees of solicitors at a Probate situation. I was involved with a €3 million estate and the legal bill was €15k, and that was from one of the big firms. If you are the executor you are duty bound to deal with the costs and I suggest you write a letter and deliver for Monday morning.


----------



## Vanilla

*Re: Probate using Solicitor costing 40,000 Euro*



> Yes estate is 1.6 million. don’t know if 40,000 includes Vat.
> 
> (g) All Cheques due on my Parent estate being paid into Solicitors account until everything finalised.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> €1.6 million @ 4.5% would earn €6K interest monthly.
> 
> Does this interest go into the estate ?
> 
> Or does the Solicitor get the benefit of it ?
Click to expand...

It is more than likely that the majority of the assets in the estate are real property ( ie land and house) therefore this is not applicable.

Saying the solicitor is 'ready to draw down probate' means nothing, does not really describe what stage the matter is at.

It is important to distinguish between the lack of a s.68 letter/discussion ( ie upfront agreement or letter re fees proposed) and excessive billing. The lack of disclosure of fees upfront does not mean the solicitor is not able to charge subsequently. Excessive billiing however where no agreement is made beforehand can be addressed, either by the taxing master or a complaint to the law society. As with all complaints you should exhaust the complaints process with this solicitor first- be upfront, tell them you have had a shock at the proposed fees and describe the fees quoted to you elsewhere. A professional should be capable of coming to a mutual agreement with you. If not, either move your file ( depending on what stage it is at) or take up the complaint with the law society/taxing master.


----------



## dewdrop

*Re: Probate using Solicitor costing 40,000 Euro*

was involved in taking out probate recently. solicitor advvised recommended law society fee was 3.5% first 10k..3% next 1ok and 2.5% on balance of estate plus vat at 21%. this fee applied solely to the estate administration and sale of property would attract additional fees. the lesson i learned was that it is advisable for executors especially in large estates to negotiate a fee as otherwise a beneficiary may well question the issue.


----------



## MOB

*Re: Probate using Solicitor costing 40,000 Euro*

"........solicitor advvised recommended law society fee was 3.5% first 10k..3% next 1ok and 2.5% on balance of estate plus vat at 21%."

This was never a law society recommended fee.  The scale above was the result of a survey commissioned by the law society in the late 1980's after which they issued a note to practitioners.   What they actually said was that they found a wide variance in billing practices, but that this rate seemed to be about average.  The same note to practitioners made it clear that the circumstances of each case would vary and that this was no more than a rough guide.  Solicitors adopted it to varying degrees.   For example, very quickly most rural bar associations adopted an informal rule that farmland would be charged at no more than 1%  in a probate (this was in the pre competition act day, when a bar association could still discuss pricing issues).  By default it became a sort of scale fee.   It is now completely obsolete and no solicitor under the age of 40 would call it a 'recommended scale' today.   It persists mostly among older solicitors but is no more than a rudimentary benchmark for fees on lower value estates, and usually inappropriate for higher value estates.


----------



## dewdrop

*Re: Probate using Solicitor costing € 40,000*

thanksMOB.  in fact solicitor involved in her thirties.


----------



## jumper1

*Probate using Solicitor costing € 40,000*

Hi All,

Thanks for your replies. Spoke to the Solicitor on Friday evening and he said that the 2.5% is purely a requirement and we can negotiate a better price and would not fall out over this. I have tried to get a figure of what the charges would be but he said that he would have to sit down and talk about it and that we would not fall out over it. 

I will be meeting the Solicitor next Monday to negotiate a figure so any advice will be of help.

Regards, Jumper1


----------



## money man

*Re: Probate using Solicitor costing € 40,000*

2.5% Is purely a requirement?! Dont know what that means. But to be fair it seems that the solicitor was chancing their arm with such a substantial fee when there was clearly no major complications etc. Take on board the advice here and the quotes you received elsewhere and tell the solicitor you were not happy when you received the bill and if she didnt intend on falling out with you she should have considered that before trying to pull the wool over your eyes.
You can always say to her that the beneficiaries of the will wanted to report it to the law society but that you felt that you should try and discuss it first.


----------



## MOB

*Re: Probate using Solicitor costing € 40,000*

If the solicitor has referred to this as being 'purely a requirement' then it seems to me that very likely that, rather than there being an specific fee quote, there may have been a generic "Section 68" letter (which would seem to need some updating....) in circumstances where the fee to be ultimately charged was always intended to be a good deal less.


----------



## money man

*Re: Probate using Solicitor costing € 40,000*

The solicitor in this case or in any other for that matter should not really be able to use an archaic "section 68" letter to justify this fee. They should charge an appropriate fee for the work that they have carried out. Work that would not likely in this case come to even a third of this bill. Why could they have not given some indication of their fees involved at the start that would have enabled the poster to query it before they received the bill and not after.


----------



## MOB

*Re: Probate using Solicitor costing € 40,000*

"Why could they have not given some indication of their fees involved at the start.."  

They should have done.  No doubt.  And the indication would have been better if it were case-specific rather than a generic indication based on a largely obsolete scale.

".....that would have enabled the poster to query it before they received the bill and not after. "  

On re-reading the OP's original post, I don't think they are yet at the stage of having a bill to query.


----------



## money man

*Re: Probate using Solicitor costing € 40,000*

Given that this does indeed seem to be the case that he has no bill yet it seems like it would be very foolish of the op to sign this document and return it. He/she does certainly not agree to paying 2.5% of the estate. So would it not be in their interest to wait for the final bill and query this. Its the solicitors fault they did not give their client an indication of fees/charging structure before commencing on the file.


----------



## Mymoney

Dear Jumper1,I beg you to contact the Probate Office and ask them for the do it yourself method of taking out Probate.They are unbelieveably helpfull. A couple of hours paper work , it is all very simple. You do not require legal knowledge for what you have detailed......good luck and keep the money in the family.mymoney


----------



## csirl

> Dear Jumper1,I beg you to contact the Probate Office and ask them for the do it yourself method of taking out Probate.They are unbelieveably helpfull. A couple of hours paper work , it is all very simple. You do not require legal knowledge for what you have detailed......good luck and keep the money in the family.mymoney


 
Fully agree with the above - best, cheapest, quickest way of doing things for standard cases such as children inheriting parents estate.

I know several people who have done this.


----------



## mf1

*Re: Probate using Solicitor costing € 40,000*



csirl said:


> Fully agree with the above - best, cheapest, quickest way of doing things for standard cases such as children inheriting parents estate.
> 
> I know several people who have done this.





Original posters original post.

"but with siblings involved it was best to keep at arms length and i did not want to deal with things at that time."

mf


----------



## csirl

> Original posters original post.
> 
> "but with siblings involved it was best to keep at arms length and i did not want to deal with things at that time."
> 
> mf


 
Sometimes there can be a lot less hastle with the Probate Office than dealing with a solicitor who's intent on making as much money as he can.


----------



## Complainer

*Re: Probate using Solicitor costing € 40,000*

Make sure you ask him why he didn't send out a section.68 letter up front, like he's supposed to.


----------



## jerry2623

The solictor is obliged to inform you BEFORE  he takes on the work what he proposes to charge you . why do all solictors seem to use the phrase we wont fall out about it when you question fees .. I suggest you negoiate like hell over fees ..He knows you never aggreed these fees so have fun . I suggest 1% is fair especially seen as you have done most of the work and I would imagine the bulk of the estate is tied up in the family home


----------



## storm

i did the probate on an estate my self last year. Estate was only valued tho at 500000 and charge was 5 hundred i think. It was very straight forward. Just a lot of running around geting bank statements etc On the day it took half hour in the probate offive and half hour in the tax office. probate arrived 3 weeks later!

Our solicitor actually reccomended we do it our selves ass he said his firms fee was too high!!!


----------



## Mymoney

*Re: Probate using Solicitor costing € 40,000*

Dear Jumper1,Why dont you contact the Probate office and request their informationon on self assessment <DIY>. Its very easy and from all your previous information this particular Probate could not be easier.The Probate office are very helpfull and quick.Good luck and keep the money in  your and your relations pockets.Mymoney.


----------



## mf1

*Re: Probate using Solicitor costing € 40,000*

"Its very easy and from all your previous information this particular Probate could not be easier."

This really is a nonsense statement. Anonymous posters on anonymous boards do not give enough information to enable anyone to make such a broad, sweeping statement. The OP has received a lot of very helpful suggestions as to how, based on the original query, s/he can proceed to deal with it. 

Many Probates are easy. Many are not. 

mf


----------



## Allen

> I have, i know its a bit late , rang up other Solicitors and they have quoted me between 3,000 to 8,000 Plus Vat .


 
Make sure you have a max figure in mind when you meet the solicitor. He will try to browbeat you into accepting a large figure.  Do not hesitate to tell him you have got a quote of €3000 and be prepared to say you are getting someone else to do it if he does not agree a reasonable figure (from what you say above, €8000 should be the absolute max).  If he complains about all the work he has done that is his tough luck and his fault for not giving you the obligatory quote.  Remember (from what it seems) he has tried to rip you off so have no sympathy for him and be inclined to take the job away from him, he appears to be a rip off merchant.  I do not think he would have any claim for any fees if you do as he did not give the obligatory quote.  Good luck.


----------



## ubiquitous

*Re: Probate using Solicitor costing € 40,000*



Allen said:


> .  I do not think he would have any claim for any fees if you do as he did not give the obligatory quote.


This is not the case, ie even though the solicitor does not issue the required fee quote at the outset, he is still entitled to bill, and get paid, for his work, even if the client does not necessarily agree with the amount charged. This in my opinion makes a mockery of the requirement to produce a "fees quote" letter in the first instance.


----------



## SarahMc

*Re: Probate using Solicitor costing € 40,000*



mf1 said:


> "Its very easy and from all your previous information this particular Probate could not be easier."
> 
> This really is a nonsense statement. Anonymous posters on anonymous boards do not give enough information to enable anyone to make such a broad, sweeping statement.


 
But the OP also stated "Solicitor said everything was very straight forward and no complications".  Op also seems to have done a lot of the work himself anyway (bar the trek to the probate office to deal with very very helpful staff).  I agree with other posters that DIY probate would have been the best course here.


----------

