# Ireland v UK: weigh up the pros and cons of returning to the old sod?



## Thinfield

I grew up and went to university in Ireland before moving to UK 15 years ago.
Now have wife and young family and starting to seriously weigh up the pros and cons of returning to the old sod?
Has anyone in a similar position recently returned - any thoughts?

I have tried to start with a qualitative analysis of the main considerations and here's what I think so far:

Healthcare: UK
Education: Ireland
Transport: UK
Family Life: Ireland
Crime: Ireland
Outlook on life: Ireland
Facilities (sports, entertainment etc): UK
Salary / Tax: Equal?
Weather: UK (just)


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## amgd28

*Re: Ireland v UK: Best place to live*



Thinfield said:


> Salary / Tax: Equal?


Depends on your profession but unless you are in a select band of london hotshots, you will probably find that your net earnings are better here. Also if one of you currently does not work, there is huge opportunities to re-join the workforce.


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## rabbit

*Re: Ireland v UK: Best place to live*

Salary / tax ?    Stamp duty ; is not our rate of 9% excessive compared to uk ?   And what about our higher rate of vat ?   And vehicle excise duties ?   Cost of living here ?


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## Bubbly Scot

*Re: Ireland v UK: Best place to live*



Thinfield said:


> Healthcare: UK
> Education: Ireland
> Transport: UK
> Family Life: Ireland
> Crime: Ireland
> Outlook on life: Ireland
> Facilities (sports, entertainment etc): UK
> Salary / Tax: Equal?
> Weather: UK (just)


 
I'm from the Uk, now living in Ireland. I'd agree for the most part with this list. We do find the cost of living is higher here, specially house prices and groceries. Education wise, I'd say the kids are getting a far better one here but be prepared for higher costs ie books and the school buildings seems more delapitated, in my experience anyway.

There's a lot of things you can't get here but over time they become more irrelevant (or you just forget about them).

Be prepared for less choice in most things compared to UK.


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## mickeyg

*Re: Ireland v UK: Best place to live*



amgd28 said:


> Depends on your profession but unless you are in a select band of london hotshots, you will probably find that your net earnings are better here. Also if one of you currently does not work, there is huge opportunities to re-join the workforce.


 
Have to take issue with you there. My wife, who has extensive experience in teaching and IT has been trying to get back into the workforce after spending time at home for the last 10 years or so primarily to raise kids, has found it impossible to get back into employment. She is still the right side of 50 not looking for a CEO job or such i.e. modest enough expectations but has found a lot of age discrimination.


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## amgd28

*Re: Ireland v UK: Best place to live*

I'm surprised at that. As an employer, I have found the labour market very tight. But perhaps that's just in Dublin? Maybe I'm out of touch with the rest of the country


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## irishlinks

*Re: Ireland v UK: Best place to live*

We moved here 4 years ago - (born in UK to Irish parents). We came over with our 4 children.

I would say it depends on where you live. Comparing rural UK to rural Ireland - would be different to comparing a UK city to a small Irish town. We are living in a rural area in the West - after coming from a large UK city.
Based on personal experience I would say the Health System is no worse than the UK - but that is based on GP visits and a few hospital visits - nothing major. But - I can see that the Irish system is becoming very much a two tier system - more so than the UK.

Education - I would not be so sure that it is better in Ireland. There are no figures to back up any comparisons (The Irish Govt won't allow that!) - so it is difficult to say for sure. But again - based on personal experience I find the system here is very much exam based and the lack of IT is terrible. I also find that the teachers don't seem to be as bothered here - maybe that is because there is no comparison of school results. (I am sure there are many good teachers - but I am basing this on my personal experience) 
A lot of the "problems" in Ireland are because people are more laid back here - which is a good thing I think - but sometimes that allows bad practices to continue unchallenged for years. Look at the provisional licence fiasco where unqualified drivers can drive without fear of prosecution because the Garda can't be bothered.

Cost of living in Ireland is not as bad as people make out. No Council Tax, no water rates, higher Child Benefits. Income tax is lower here for many people here than in the UK. Min wage is higher too. Petrol is cheaper.

People are generally more friendly here... talk to a stranger in the UK and you mostly will just get silence and a strange look.

Rural transport is pretty poor here - but I don't know if it is as bad in the UK.

That's my thoughts anyway...


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## csirl

*Re: Ireland v UK: Best place to live*



> Salary / Tax: Equal?


 
Salary & Tax are much better in Ireland. 

I've a couple of UK born friends who after living in Ireland for several years, returned to the UK (for family reasons). Both to different parts of the UK - one London area, other the Midlands. I also have a friend who's recently moved back to Ireland after several years in north of England.

Experience of all is that salaries in Ireland are a lot higher. Also, people with similar qualifications/experience will get higher level jobs in Ireland thus making the salary gap even bigger. Friend who moved to London area got a higher level job on return, but salary was lower than previous job in Ireland. Friend who moved to Midlands has struggled badly - only work available is in lower level jobs with much less pay. Friend who moved the other way i.e. from UK to Ireland, is now comfortable in a much better paid job - had been struggling in north of England. 

I regularly visit different parts of England. One thing that strikes you is the growing gap between the greater London area and the North/Midlands. London appears to be fairing ok. However, the North/Midlands has collapsed. Jobs seem to be in very short supply, property prices are very low (reflecting low incomes), unemployment high etc. In spite of plus of having lower house prices, the quality of life in North/Midlands is getting poorer.

Take a trip to a couple of cities in north of England and then to a couple of cities in eastern Europe and you'll find it difficult to spot the difference nowdays (including property prices).


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## Paulone

*Re: Ireland v UK: Best place to live*

Ireland is a lot less hierarchical and is noticeably less formal than the UK. People are on the whole more approachable and affable, tho I think this is a terrible generalisation and there can be startling good and bad in both places. 

I know that commuting every morning into town might give a different impression, but I think the fact that the entire population of the country is comparable to that of the area in and around Manchester area says a lot. There are fewer people here and this shows in a variety of ways, good and bad.

I agree that there is less choice here and I think there is a slightly worrying trend that Ireland is increasingly seen as an adjunct to the UK - it being geographically more logical to lump it in with the UK when it comes to distribution/services/language. This has homogenised Ireland a lot, even in the last 15years, but hasn't vastly increased choice like it might have in the UK. Ireland still retains a lot of its quirkyness, but there is now a lot more comparing like-with-like (maybe its like this all across Europe?)

I wouldn't move to the UK now, but similarly I believe the quality of life in Ireland - particularly in the Dublin area - is on the wane, so the future might see that spread out and cause this to become a less attractive place?


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## Thinfield

*Re: Ireland v UK: Best place to live*

I currently live in Leeds (one of the better cities in the North). One of the main considerations for me is the outlook on life that is likely to be imparted to my children. I feel the UK tends to exude a rather tired, inward-looking attitude. Ambition seems to be restricted by peoples ingrained view of their place (class?).

I think Ireland has had a more optimistic outlook, more outward-looking (perhaps because it is a small country?) but I am concerned at the extend to which consumerism and celebrity-worshipping are taking hold. I also cannot stand how much the written media seem hell bent on "out-sensationalising" their UK counterparts (e.g. the hysterical response to recent sporting setbacks).

I would like to think there are places, beyond the pale, that have the right balance?


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## ClubMan

*Re: Ireland v UK: Best place to live*



Thinfield said:


> I currently live in Leeds
> 
> ...
> 
> I think Ireland has had a more optimistic outlook, more outward-looking


Far away hills ...?


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## Protocol

*Re: Ireland v UK: Best place to live*

Social insurance rates:

UK = 11%

IRL = 6% up to 48,800, 2% above, with first 127 pw free of PRSI


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## rabbit

*Re: Ireland v UK: Best place to live*



Bubbly Scot said:


> I'm from the Uk, now living in Ireland. I'd agree for the most part with this list. We do find the cost of living is higher here, specially house prices and groceries.


And the cost of cars ? Because of the lack of public transport cars are essential for many Irish people in order to get to work etc. A car which is 20,000 euro in the UK can be 40,000 euro here.


Maybe if things are better economically in Ireland now , we should at least consider repaying SOME of the billions of pounds we got from the UK over the decades, through the EC.


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## z107

*Re: Ireland v UK: Best place to live*



> Social insurance rates:
> 
> UK = 11%



I'm curious as to where you got that figure from? UK NI Contribution calculations are fairly complex.


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## Jock04

*Re: Ireland v UK: Best place to live*

I think the fact that this topic, in which the OP listed 9 main points of interest, was moved to "The Great Financial Debates" speaks volumes.

Not all quality of life issues are financial.

Also, I think the OP's question is too broad to answer fully as we don't know whether he's considering moving from a city to a city, from rural to rural or any variation thereof.  But in the spirit of broad generalisations, I'd say overall quality of life is better here. I'd base that on: social interaction, education, safety, in some ways facilities and the fact that in general, people here are just more cheerful & pleasant to be around.


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## Teapot

*Re: Ireland v UK: Best place to live*

I was born in Ireland and tried to move back there in 2001, but I can honestly say that I have no regrets in not moving back.  Since moving to the UK over 40 years ago, Ireland was a safe place to live and people generally looked out for each other, compared to nowadays when people are obsessed with property prices (not saying that is not the case in the UK) but when I go back to visit Ireland all that you hear is what the property prices are in the UK and it comes across that people have got very materialist, which used not to be case in Ireland.  

  Overall I prefer where I am residing in the UK and would not moved back to Ireland now that I am older. I would be worry that I would need to have medical attention and I would find a two tier system difficult to contend with.  Also, if I were to move back to Ireland now it would be a completely different generation,  as all the people that I grew up with are not there anymore. 


Teapot


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## Protocol

*Re: Ireland v UK: Best place to live*

See here for UK NI rates:

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/rates/nic.htm

11% on earnings between 87-670 stg, 1% on earnings above.


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## Caveat

*Re: Ireland v UK: Best place to live*

A bit abstract/subjective probably, but for me a quality of life factor is the overall town planning/architecture feel.

Whilst Irish planning obviously leaves a lot to be desired, I've found at least, for better or for worse,  that Irish towns/cities generally have their own character or atmosphere.  

Maybe I'm open to correction, but for me, UK cities (with some obvious exceptions) tend to be more charmless, or even bleak.  There tends to be a depressing homogeniety of design/layout etc: Many main streets in e.g. Carlisle, Wolverhampton or Bristol can be indistinguishable.

Obviously this has sprung from synchronised relative efficiency - but I have to say it brings me down a bit.


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## annR

*Re: Ireland v UK: Best place to live*

I've never lived in the UK so can't compare the two.

I've just come back from a week in Manhattan and as a very shallow / general impression, I may as well have been in Dublin except for the skyscrapers and it was a lot cheaper.  A melting pot full of people rushing around earning money, Macy's was FULL of Irish people.

Ireland has become very materialistic. However it's up to everyone here how much they 'buy' into the whole consumerism thing.  Personally I think it's crazy but just a symptom of our economic bubble - new wealth is brash.  There are great opportunities here at the moment too.

I think the dreadful planning and corruption is a greater problem here which would impact lifestyle and families.  Also I have heard the viewpoint that Ireland is more American in some ways including the healthcare system going two tier and I think that would be a very bad thing for families.


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## pinkyBear

*Re: Ireland v UK: Best place to live*



> Ireland has become very materialistic.


 
Hi there, 
Mr Bear and I are an average mid thirties couple - up to our eyes in mortgage debt! To say Ireland is very materialistic is quite a broad statement that you cannot apply to all. 
To be honest I have lived in Dublin for the past 16 years and I have grown to love it - when I moved here Dublin was a grim smoggy place, I was a cultchie who was taking someones job! Today Dublin is mulicultural without loosing its identity, it is cleaner and there is more variety in shops..
I have not lived in the UK, but I do have family in Guernsey and it is really lovely - it would be the only part of the UK I would live in..
P


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## dfg75

*Re: Ireland v UK: Best place to live*

annR,
I agree with you that Ireland's healthcare system may be heading two tier but having experienced American healthcare (while on holidays with no insurance) and Irish hospitals (with health insurance) - I would much rather be in the States with an injury or illness --  no massive waiting, clean, modern facilities, thorough testing and excellent beside manner -- can't say the same for my experience in Dublin


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## z105

*Re: Ireland v UK: Best place to live*

Should this title not read A)Republic of Ireland V United Kingdom or B)Ireland V Great Britain ???


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## MichaelDes

*Re: Ireland v UK: Best place to live*

I live in both jurisdictions so my knowledge should be useful. ROI has cheaper taxes for PAYE's...yep a lot cheaper. Sneaky Gordon introduced loads of little stealth taxes on individuals and their businesses. But then again you get something for your taxes such as health [no need for VHI at €750 per year or 15-20 doctor visits at €60 a pop -taking the kids) and then secondly there is free refuse collection [saving €700 per year]. But then again in the UK you pay for these through local taxes i.e. €1800 per year. Ireland has lower taxes and you get nothing for it, I'd prefer that system.

But the most important thing of living in Ireland is the people and your immediate family. Generally friends etc can come and go but you should always have your family - very important if you have kids [use your nieces as free babysitters].


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## Duke of Marmalade

*Re: Ireland v UK: Best place to live*



pinkyBear said:


> Hi there,
> I have not lived in the UK, but I do have family in Guernsey and it is really lovely - it would be the only part of the UK I would live in..
> P


 


			
				wikipedia said:
			
		

> The Channel Islands fall into two separate self-governing bailiwicks. Both the Bailiwick of Guernsey and the Bailiwick of Jersey are British Crown Dependencies, but neither is part of the United Kingdom.


 
Sorry, Mrs Bear, but it looks like there is no part of the UK suitable for you.


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## joe sod

*Re: Ireland v UK: Best place to live*

I would say ireland overall is still cheaper than britain, britain seems to be much better organised there public services are much more accountable than ours, the NHS is far better than the HSE, however the one thing that turns me off britain is how unfriendly and rude people can be there, they are definitely the most unfriendly in the english speaking world, it seems to be something ingrained in british culture.


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## Teapot

*Re: Ireland v UK: Best place to live*

I have to disagree with you Joe - like everywhere you can find rude people and very decent friendly people as well - I have found people very friendly in the UK and in Greater London where I live but I have also met very rude people and more of often than not they are young people but that is not to say that all young people are rude and unfriendly. 
  In Ireland people will spend more time with you if you should ask for directions etc., and this is especially so if you have an accent.


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## BillK

*Re: Ireland v UK: Best place to live*

So far as health care is concerned in UK my experience is that it is unsafe to be in hospital now due to MRSA and C.diff.
When I worked in Trinidad I spent a week in the Mount Hope Medical Centre due to a back problem; far superior to my experience in England in terms of cleanliness and care.

I had to go to my GP a while ago again with  a back problem and said that I needed to see the physio. He told me that he would write the letter if I wished, but that there was a *19 week waiting list*. I went to a chiropractor and paid £27 a session for treatment.


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## Marie

*Ireland v UK: Best place to live*

I've lived in both, and in both city (Dublin, London) and country (Donegal, Essex).  

It is not really possible to compare given the huge differential in size scale and population.  If there is sometimes indifference in the UK there is an equally-unproductive 'cronyism' in Ireland.  Education in Ireland for the past 15 years or so has been superior but the balance seems to be shifting again in favour of the UK!  Twenty years ago Ireland would have won 'hands down' for beauty and quality of life.  However that's gone under the weight of crazy uncontrolled and unplanned urban sprawl and destruction of the environment..........which unfortunately (no sound infrastructure has been established!) is not compensated for better social and cultural amenity.  In England alarm set in about loss of heritage and natural resources about 20 years ago.  That has been reversed.   You can find extraordinary towns and villages, historic sites, monuments, areas of outstanding natural beauty, extraordinary coastline, sanctuaries of every kind........as well as some of the most interesting cities with internationally-acclaimed new architecture and cultural venues.  It comes from its size and critical mass.  It's not a matter of the UK being 'better', just 'different'.

As far as cost of living goes I did a thorough comparison a few years ago when planning to relocate to Ireland.  Across the board (sustenance and daily living, entertainment and eating out, big items like appliances, furniture, car, taxes) and comparing income per hour - Ireland was more expensive.


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## Thinfield

*Re: Ireland v UK: Best place to live*



> I live in both jurisdictions so my knowledge should be useful


MichaelDes - You say you live in both jurisdictions. Perhaps this is the answer? 
What line of business allows you do this?


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## joe sod

*Re: Ireland v UK: Best place to live*



Marie said:


> I've lived in both, and in both city (Dublin, London) and country (Donegal, Essex).
> 
> It is not really possible to compare given the huge differential in size scale and population.  If there is sometimes indifference in the UK there is an equally-unproductive 'cronyism' in Ireland.  Education in Ireland for the past 15 years or so has been superior but the balance seems to be shifting again in favour of the UK!  Twenty years ago Ireland would have won 'hands down' for beauty and quality of life.  However that's gone under the weight of crazy uncontrolled and unplanned urban sprawl and destruction of the environment..........which unfortunately (no sound infrastructure has been established!) is not compensated for better social and cultural amenity.  In England alarm set in about loss of heritage and natural resources about 20 years ago.  That has been reversed.   You can find extraordinary towns and villages, historic sites, monuments, areas of outstanding natural beauty, extraordinary coastline, sanctuaries of every kind........as well as some of the most interesting cities with internationally-acclaimed new architecture and cultural venues.  It comes from its size and critical mass.  It's not a matter of the UK being 'better', just 'different'.
> 
> As far as cost of living goes I did a thorough comparison a few years ago when planning to relocate to Ireland.  Across the board (sustenance and daily living, entertainment and eating out, big items like appliances, furniture, car, taxes) and comparing income per hour - Ireland was more expensive.



I have to agree with this, i think enormous damage has been done in ireland in terms of urban sprawl, at least in britain they have managed to contain this within the cities leaving small towns villages and countryside intact. This shows that britains public service and government is far superior to irelands.


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## BeanPole

*Re: Ireland v UK: Best place to live*

Have to challenge the OP's comment about education being superior in Ireland. 

Irish education is far below the standard that the politicians and the teachers unions would have you believe.

Our school day, and number of days teaching per annum are far worse than in the UK. The proportion of time spent learning the Irish language is far too high.

There are very limited league tables available to Irish parents so we need to rely on word of mouth, and a few scraps of data such as which schools are the main "feeder schools" for the universities. So teachers and schools are not incentivised to ensure that pupils achieve their full potential.

Also, as a direct consequence of Labour's appalling decision to scrap third level fees in the mid-90s, Irish Universities have been starved of funds. The result is that only Trinity college is listed as within the top 100 universities in the global rankings, while Britain, who allow colleges to raise fee funding, has 5 entries in the top 10 ranked schools:
[broken link removed]


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## carpedeum

*Re: Ireland v UK: Best place to live*



BeanPole said:


> Also, as a direct consequence of Labour's appalling decision to scrap third level fees in the mid-90s, Irish Universities have been starved of funds. The result is that only Trinity college is listed as within the top 100 universities in the global rankings, while Britain, who allow colleges to raise fee funding, has 5 entries in the top 10 ranked schools:
> [broken link removed]


 
I have to totally disagree with the above comment. I left school in 1977, when Ireland was a backwater banana republic with little opportunity and dominated by an unchristian unempathetic church. I got enough points in my Leaving Cert. and NUI Matric to do my first two choices, Architecture and a B.Comm. I came from a lower middle-class family, where my father was the sole breadwinner and had a good job as a sales rep, but, whose household income was outside the grant threshold of the time. However, he could not afford to send me to university without making sacrifices which I thought at the time would have placed an unfair burden on the family and my younger siblings. I started clerking in the back streets of a dour Dublin instead and have not done too badly, especially having avoided economic migration similar to 16 of my Leaving Cert class.

Nowadays, regardless of circumstances, children from all families can benefit from higher education on their own academic merit, as I have seen younger nieces, nephews and cousins do and hopefully my own children do in the years ahead. Sacrificing these opportunities is not the way to raise funds for universities. Corporate funding has proved a viable way of funding, even if egos of some corporate magnates have to be pandered to by naming institutes after them or even their parents e.g. O'Reilly, Smurfit, Quinn etc. There is no reason why corporate funding cannot be expanded.

The above is my personal experience anyway!


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