# Overcharged by solicitor



## kildarebuild (4 Mar 2009)

Forgive me, if this question seems like many others, but it is slightly different, we recently moved our mortgage from one bank to another. We had also transferred the site from my wife into our joint names. 

We asked for a quote on this, she verbally informed us over the phone that it would be 1400. We do not have this in writing. 

The final sum from the solicitor has come in as 2560. An astounding 1250 over the initial quotation. 

Since our solicitor was dealing with the mortgage etc she has already paid herself by writing a cheque out of the money that was being transferred! So she has effectively paid herself without informing us of so. 

I want to know what approach should I take? Since the last thing I want to do is get on the wrong side of a solicitor. But I feel I have been taken advantage of. Which I hate.  

The law states that all solicitors should inform the client of the fees in writing beforehand? Do i have any grounds here? If I bring it up what would her reaction be?

i intend to try and resolve this overcharging issue peacefully, (have not been in touch with her yet.) Plan is to write an email asking her to explain the sudden increase of the fees. Thats it. Or should I be more direct and book an appointment in her office and discuss it with her, despite the fact she probably would charge me for taking up her time. 

Any advise would be greatly appreciated.


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## Vanilla (4 Mar 2009)

1400 all in ( which for a mortgage and transfer would be nigh on impossible)  or 1400 fee plus VAT ( 301) and outlay ( PRAI fees of 125 on the new charge, 85 on the transfer, 25 on the old charge, potentially 60 on a new folio and 25 on an updated filed plan on completion, total 320: plus old bank charge on release of docs or vacate- anything up to 120; plus search fees of anywhere between 100 to 300 ( depending on title), commissioner for oaths fees etc. These are the outlays based on just what you have said, there may well be more ( almost inevitably WILL be more) depending on the circumstances. I doubt you have been overcharged, I think you misunderstood the circumstance of the quote. But to repeat- to do the work you mention, inclusive of VAT and outlay, would be impossible. And a fee of 1400 (exclusive of VAT and outlay) is by no means high- it would be a fairly standard, verging on the low side, fee.


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## Complainer (4 Mar 2009)

Vanilla said:


> I think you misunderstood the circumstance of the quote.


Possibly because the solicitor didn't make it clear that VAT and outlays were excluded?


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## mf1 (4 Mar 2009)

Complainer said:


> Possibly because the solicitor didn't make it clear that VAT and outlays were excluded?



Or because clients choose not to hear? Anything? Many of my clients are deaf, deaf, and deaf. 

But yes, it would make life a great deal easier for everyone if the fees, VAT and outlays were spelled out, in writing, in advance    

As Vanilla has said, the final figure is not a huge amount in terms of fees, VAT and outlays for the work done.

I am sick to the back teeth of casual callers asking for an all in quote when they have not got the first clue of (a) what they are  talking about and (b) what is involved. I basically will not quote anymore unless it is to a known client who has some grasp of the work involved in a transaction and who does not expect me to subsidise their dealings.



mf


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## Complainer (4 Mar 2009)

mf1 said:


> Or because clients choose not to hear? Anything? Many of my clients are deaf, deaf, and deaf.
> 
> But yes, it would make life a great deal easier for everyone if the fees, VAT and outlays were spelled out, in writing, in advance


Indeed, putting it in writing (as I understood that solicitors were legally obliged to do) would eliminate doubts for everyone.


mf1 said:


> I am sick to the back teeth of casual callers asking for an all in quote when they have not got the first clue of (a) what they are talking about and (b) what is involved. I basically will not quote anymore unless it is to a known client who has some grasp of the work involved in a transaction and who does not expect me to subsidise their dealings.


I'm guessing that things must not be as bad in the legal business as the press would have us believe if solicitors expect their clients to have legal degrees before they get taken on as clients!


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## kildarebuild (4 Mar 2009)

Careful with the deaf comments! I am actually deaf! 

Thanks for all the feedback. I still feel I was mis-led on purpose. - 1400 to 2650 is quite an increase... but as vanilla says it is about right. 

She is also a family solicitor who has been used for the past 20 odd years.


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## murphaph (4 Mar 2009)

Why can't solicitors quote 'all in' though? A builder/plumber/dentist will give a price all inclusive of parts, labour and VAT so what prevents solicitors from doing the same? I'm sure a good solicitor has a very good idea of what most things will cost from the outset would they not?


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## mf1 (4 Mar 2009)

murphaph said:


> Why can't solicitors quote 'all in' though? A builder/plumber/dentist will give a price all inclusive of parts, labour and VAT so what prevents solicitors from doing the same? I'm sure a good solicitor has a very good idea of what most things will cost from the outset would they not?



Hi there - its  a simple remortgage.  

Oh and by the way I need you to give the following undertakings.........discharge my car loan, visa bill, credit card bill. But I'm not going to tell you any of that because you might think that involved extra work because you had to check the amount, get redemption figures, to a particular date, which might change because I have not yet sorted out my life cover, insurance and valuation fees! 

Oh and I don't know if the property is registered title or unregistered title, whether there is more than one mortgage, oh and did I mention that I built a huge extension with no planning permission ( oh, goodness me , does that matter? do you have to give  a full certificate of title that makes you personally responsible for all the teeny tiny litle details that I choose not to tell you?) Yawn. oh and that I actually have two (or is it three?)   top ups? All of which need to be dealt with.....discharged, paid off and registered. 

Oh yeah and while you're at it, can you just change details of ownership - I forgot to tell the bank that even though we're both applying for the new mortgage that actually she is the sole owner so actually we can't both be on the mortgage because ( oh is'nt this like so funny!) I don't own the property. 

So, you know what, maybe  if we were'nt all so quick to believe that all the consumers are entirely straight up and honest with their solicitors and did not deliberately choose to fudge minor details to muddy the waters, and that all solicitors are deliberately out there to maul their clients, you might all just think that perhaps, ( just a thought)  there might just be two sides. 

And you do not need a law degree to tell the truth - or give all the facts when looking for a price.  

mf


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## ballaboy (5 Mar 2009)

I understand the law Society requires a Solicitor to give an estimate in writting of the cost of any assignement before they take it on,and it is strictly enforced


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## mathepac (5 Mar 2009)

mf1 said:


> ... And you do not need a law degree to tell the truth - or give all the facts when looking for a price...


So maybe an aide memoire for the client and a check-list for the lawyer issued  before discussing a price might avoid nasty surprises  once the work is complete?


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## Bronte (5 Mar 2009)

kildarebuild said:


> Careful with the deaf comments! I am actually deaf!
> 
> Thanks for all the feedback. I still feel I was mis-led on purpose. - 1400 to 2650 is quite an increase... but as vanilla says it is about right.
> 
> She is also a family solicitor who has been used for the past 20 odd years.


OP I don't think you were misled on purpose, you are just shocked at the bill, you had made an assumption that the figure quoted included everything but I guess you asked what was her fee and her fee is probably the 1400 but she should have pointed out to you that it did not include VAT or any other legal costs which she has no control over. Solicitors tend to make assumptions too - that the non legal client will automatically know that there are other unknown costs. This is why it is much better if solicitors give a written estimate of the fees and vat and outlays involved in advance.

By the way a fee of 1400 for a remortgage and transfer sounds very reasonable. 

I don't know about the legalities of her taking her fees from the mortgage cheque, my solicitor always does this and I have no problem with this.


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## Towger (5 Mar 2009)

So the moral of the story is to look for a Section 68 off the solicitor at the start of any undertakings and make sure it gets updated if/when they change.


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## sam h (5 Mar 2009)

I'm no expert, but I'd have thought €1400 seems about right....IF it is a straight forward move from one bank to another. The only expertise I have is to compare it to what I paid about 5 years ago & we paid €1000 (all in). 

Obviously, if there was extra work or the tranfers was complicated for some reason, then you would be charged more, but, personally, I think that should have been made clear to you.

I should add - my solicior had dealt with the purchase of our house a few years earlier so she may have had some of the work done already & may not have taken as long as a newbie customer.


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## Cayne (5 Mar 2009)

mf1 said:


> I am sick to the back teeth of casual callers asking for an all in quote when they have not got the first clue of (a) what they are talking about and (b) what is involved. I basically will not quote anymore unless it is to a known client who has some grasp of the work involved in a transaction and who does not expect me to subsidise their dealings.
> 
> mf


 
Is that not the nature of being in business, people who are not legally trained seeking advice and a cost for this advice? Anyone can accept that there is a hugh disparity in the fees charged by solicitors in this country today, so I cannot see anything wrong in ringing up and seeking a quote. The last house purchase I completed I got quotes from €800 + vat + outlays to €2200 + vat + outlays.


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## DavyJones (5 Mar 2009)

mf1 said:


> Or because clients choose not to hear? Anything? Many of my clients are deaf, deaf, and deaf.
> 
> mf




Why do you feel the need to nearly always jump to the defense of fellow professionals?

Do you accept that some solicitors are bad at their jobs and do over charge?


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## dazza21ie (5 Mar 2009)

ballaboy said:


> I understand the law Society requires a Solicitor to give an estimate in writting of the cost of any assignement before they take it on,and it is strictly enforced


 
Yes non compliant solicitors are taken to Blackhall Place for a flogging!


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## Dreamerb (5 Mar 2009)

Many solicitors assume, if it's your second or subsequent property related transaction, that you will know that quotes are usually ex-VAT and outlays unless otherwise specified. It's evidently a dangerous assumption!

My solicitor is also cagey about quoting for conveyancing, because transactions can be so varied. Some will be totally straightforward, others can be horrendous, and often as a client you don't really know which is which - not at the outset, anyway.

@OP: I think asking for a breakdown of the bill is perfectly reasonable (and I'd ask for a breakdown of the whole bill rather than "the increase"), and I'd do that before instigating anything more confrontational. You may find the total is self-explanatory, but either way it gives you the information to decide what, if anything, to do next.


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## murphaph (5 Mar 2009)

Towger said:


> So the moral of the story is to look for a Section 68 off the solicitor at the start of any undertakings and make sure it gets updated if/when they change.


Section 68 letters are a waste of time. Solicitors are allowed to send out a Law Society waffle based letter which talks about the complexities of this and that and the end of the letter tells you they can't possibly know how much it will all cost in the end. So long as they give you that letter (it's the same one for everybody) then they are covered and you have no comeback when you get a massive bill.

I understand what mf1 says about people holding important information back but he also clearly knows all the possible pitfalls there are out there so as matthepac suggests-a checklist containing these pitaflls for the potential customer to fill out for the basic services (will, probate, conveyances etc.) would seem a good compromise. 

The whole system here still needs to head in the direction of England and Wales....[broken link removed]

Over there they must at least give an estimate and keep in touch with costs as they escalate. My family has had enough dealing with enough solicitors to know that once the waffley section 68 letter goes out, the next time you hear about fees is when they have the bill for you. No contact about incurred costs whatsoever and then a "you owe us 8,000" but we haven't actually achieved what we set out to do. Not all sloicitors are honourable, most are, but not all. My current solicitor reckons the above crowd are "crooks" (his word, not mine) for attempting to charge so much for so little. One file was for 3k with very little done, another file was for 1.5k with much more done so my current solicitor could see straight away it didn't add up, literally.

You need to really be assertive when dealing with a solicitor unless you have reason to trust them (good past experiences with them or very reliable personal recommendations etc.).Just trusting a solicitor or firm of solicitors  is a big mistake. I've seen some incredibly sloppy work by them (wrong names on civil bills and summonses etc. making them invalid).


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## sandrat (5 Mar 2009)

I think we paid about 1000 when we bought our house for legal fees but then 3 years later we got a cheque from the solicitor for 174 or something like that and a letter saying they had found having gone through the accounts that we were due this amount in our favour. Woohoo


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## dazza21ie (5 Mar 2009)

murphaph said:


> You need to really be assertive when dealing with a solicitor unless you have reason to trust them (good past experiences with them or very reliable personal recommendations etc.).Just trusting a solicitor or firm of solicitors is a big mistake. I've seen some incredibly sloppy work by them (wrong names on civil bills and summonses etc. making them invalid).


 
The problem is that alot of people are concerned by one thing only and that is price. There is no excuse for overcharging but a fair price for a good job should be every person's ideal. 
Solicitors are their own worst enemies in this regard. Clients don't always see the work that needs to be done. A bill sent out with "Professional fee 1,400" is pretty useless from the clients point of view. As a profession we need to get better at explaining what we actually do.


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## MOB (5 Mar 2009)

UK lawyers have been shown, in one study after another, to have higher fee income than any other country in Europe. http://research.lawyers.com/European-Law-Firm-Cost-and-Profit-Survey.html  The idea that legal fees in Ireland are in some way out of the ordinary is simply not supported by the facts.  What we do have is a system where fee guidance and fee scales have not been allowed for many years and where the legal profession has been slow to implement suitable alternatives.



murphaph said:


> The whole system here still needs to head in the direction of England and Wales....[broken link removed]



I would not disagree with this.  But what we will have at the end of this process is higher (but more transparent) fees.   So to some extent, it is a case of 'be careful what you wish for'.


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## mathepac (5 Mar 2009)

MOB said:


> UK lawyers have been shown, in one study after another, to have higher fee income than any other country in Europe. http://research.lawyers.com/European-Law-Firm-Cost-and-Profit-Survey.html ...


That particular survey shows a number of things about UK law firms (presumably solicitor firms as I believe barristers are not allowed to operate as corporate entities) including :


a higher level of fee-income tied up (aged at almost 7 months!)
higher costs (income less expenditure 32% in UK, 53% in Sweden) due to more support staff, higher IT costs, more expert costs.
So they need higher fees as it appears their practices are less efficient when compared with their European peers. This does not mean that comparing fees in Ireland and the UK is a valid exercise. It might be more appropriate to cast the comparison net a bit wider.


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## MOB (5 Mar 2009)

It is difficult to draw conclusions about 'efficiency' without getting fairly deep into data about practice mix.  For example, an employed solicitor is treated as an overhead - so a firm consisting of one owner and two employed solicitors will have a high overhead, while a firm consisting of three partners will have a much lower overhead.  But it is meaningless to look at this in terms of efficiency if by efficiency you mean the ability to deliver a quality service at a good price ( as opposed to, say, return on capital to the business owner)

However, revenue per fee earner ( whether partner\owner or employed lawyer) is an area where the UK stands above the rest.


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## murphaph (5 Mar 2009)

Having dealt with solicitors who were incompetent (as I said, wrong names on important documents) I can state honestly that I would pay more for a competent service which delivers what it promises at the outset.


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## Latrade (5 Mar 2009)

I've always received a detailed breakdown of the fees from my solicitor, so even when we've felt surprised at the expense, when it is broken down you can see where it has come from. Though the "phone charges", usually a couple of hundre euro, always seem a bit excessive. Especially when it's me who has to call them for up dates and get 5 minutes conversation.

Even the girls on those party lines don't get that kind of hourly rate...so I've been told...not that I'd use them or owt.

Not sure how the UK's gone in the last few years, but I bought property there and solicitors fees (all in) were £400. And that included all the searches etc.


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## Complainer (5 Mar 2009)

mf1 said:


> Hi there - its  a simple remortgage.
> 
> Oh and by the way I need you to give the following undertakings.........discharge my car loan, visa bill, credit card bill. But I'm not going to tell you any of that because you might think that involved extra work because you had to check the amount, get redemption figures, to a particular date, which might change because I have not yet sorted out my life cover, insurance and valuation fees!
> 
> ...


Bloody customers eh! Aren't they such a pain? It never happens that other trades or professions have to do a bit of work up-front to ascertain their client requirements and produce a decent quote - right?



murphaph said:


> Section 68 letters are a waste of time. Solicitors are allowed to send out a Law Society waffle based letter which talks about the complexities of this and that and the end of the letter tells you they can't possibly know how much it will all cost in the end. So long as they give you that letter (it's the same one for everybody) then they are covered and you have no comeback when you get a massive bill.


So keep walking until you find a decent solicitor with a decent reputation who will give you a decent quote.


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## murphaph (5 Mar 2009)

Complainer said:


> So keep walking until you find a decent solicitor with a decent reputation who will give you a decent quote.


I've got one now and he called me there today about one of the files I've just paid 3k for from previous solicitor. His exact words were "you remember saying you were going to the Law Society about firm x?, well I think you may have to". That was because he finally got to see the file today and he says "there's not much in it to be honest". As I said, tread VERY carefuly-there are lots of crooks in this game. Once you find a good one (current solicitor is an old friend of the mother) stick like glue to them.


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## nuac (7 Mar 2009)

Good post Mf1.   Remortgages are notalways "simple".    Family law legislation planning legislation, stamp duty etc etc are a fertile source of problems.   In one area I know an office offering a very low priced conveyancing service has closed, leaving a number of problem cases for others to sort out.


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## Kate10 (9 Mar 2009)

I agree with dazza that we can be our own worst enemies sometimes.  I don't think there's any point in *****ing about clients (although I can sympathies having been on the receiving end of some outrageous lies over the years!).  At the end of the day section 68's are there for our protection as much as protection of the client.  We have to quote in a way that is understood.  Personally, if someone calls for a quote I will explain the professional fee, VAT, and the outlay.  If it's property I explain the difference between land reg and reg of deeds fees and I explain that here may be "hidden" extras that I won't know about until I see the title and meet with the client.  I explain that "hidden" extras tend to be to do with engineer's certs and planning etc and how that is likely to come about.

TBH I have it down to a 6 minute shpeel, then I take an email or home address and a standard s68 goes out.  It doesn't stop the bs you sometimes hear from clients (which is a complete pain in the ass and you can just picture them in the pub that evening *****ing about solicitors) but at least I can always be confident that I am in the right when it comes to fees and no client is going to get a "surprise" invoice from me.

To the op - tbh the fee you were charged was very fair.  I'm sorry the solicitor didn't explain the fee clearly to you, but maybe in this instance you should put it down to experience?  At least the work was done, was done well, and you weren't overcharged.


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## Padraigb (9 Mar 2009)

So, Kate10, your message is that a solicitor can give a client a good idea of the final bill in a few minutes? That seems like time well spent. In that, you show the professional fee as an item: that gives the client an opportunity to consider whether he or she thinks that is a reasonable amount for your time, expertise, and office resources (and perhaps debate the fee with you). All that seems very reasonable. So reasonable that it seems to me that any solicitor who will not do it is not being as professional as one should expect.

Just a small follow-up question: if something extra comes up, be it an unexpected complication in the transaction or an additional service required by the client, do you advise as early as possible of the impact on the final account? If you say yes, then I propose that you be held up as a good example for all your colleagues to follow.


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## Bronte (10 Mar 2009)

Kate10 said:


> TBH I have it down to a 6 minute shpeel, then I take an email or home address and a standard s68 goes out.


  And I think you should get the client to sign the letter with a copy for the client and original for you so that when they get the bill and are surprised you can furnish them with a copy of the estimate and we will have an end to client's getting unexpected bills !  Maybe a Law Society requirement that a signed copy of the s68 letter attached to the bill should be compulsory?


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## Kate10 (10 Mar 2009)

Yeah Bronte I agree that would be ideal.  I have to admit I don't do it for property transactions but I do make the effort to get a signed letter of engagement for commercial work where I will be paid an hourly fee.

Padraig yes I explain to the client that they will know about the extra as soon as I do.  I explain also that the "extra" won't be paid to me, but rather will be paid to the engineer or architect who has to produce the cert needed to fix the problem with the title.  In other words, the client will be the one retaining the engineer (although I will provide recommendations if needed), the client will attend at the house while the inspection is carried out, and the client will most likely agree the fee and pay the engineer directly.

I have very very rarely charged anything more than that quoted at the outset for a professional fee.  At the end of the day a fixed fee really should be a fixed fee, and if complications arise I think I should deal with that as part of the original quote, unless the complications are so extreme that they change the nature of the transaction - i.e. I end up suing the purchaser/vendor on behalf of the client.  That's the risk I take when I quote a fixed fee. 

Giving accurate quotes is for my benefit as much as the client.  I never want to send an invoice to a client that the client is not expecting.  It makes my work environment even more stressful and chances are that client will not be back.  I work hard to do a good job for my client. The last thing I want is to undo all that good work by not keeping them informed about fees.

None of this stops certain clients from lying through their teeth when it comes to paying up, of course.  I think I have a fairly accurate bs detector when it comes to clients, but I have to admit I have been shocked in the past at what some clients will say and do.  I think the current environment of solicitor bashing makes it easier for them to justify their behaviour.  It is very demoralising.


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## murphaph (10 Mar 2009)

Juat wanted to say that your conduct sounds about the most professional I have ever heard of a solicitor. Keep up the good work Kate and I hope you are kept busy with repeat business, sounds like you deserve it.


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## bond-007 (10 Mar 2009)

Well said Kate. Keep up the good work.


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## Kate10 (10 Mar 2009)

Thanks guys - kind of you to say so.  Have to say though that there are plenty of solicitors out there who do exactly the same.


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## PaddyBloggit (10 Mar 2009)

Kate10 said:


> Thanks guys - kind of you to say so.  Have to say though that there are plenty of solicitors out there who do exactly the same.



+1

My solicitor has always been top class.

His fees have never contained any surprises. He has, on occasion, gone that little bit further without additional charges e.g. updating my will for free etc.

There are honest people in all walks of life .... only to find them!

Once you find them ... hold onto them!


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## Bronte (11 Mar 2009)

PaddyBloggit said:


> +1
> 
> My solicitor has always been top class.
> 
> ...


+1 I've a great solicitor too.  Actually we don't praise people who do the good jobs often enough, probably we focus too much on the bad stuff.


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## MoonTheLoon (8 Apr 2009)

One thing that really irks me is clients complaining about outlays; there's nothing a solicitor can do about Land Registry fees; why one bloke's house can cost 85 Euro to register yet the one around the corner is 675 Euro, etc.  

I got royally screwed a couple of years back doing two affordable houses.  I gave a written quote based on the information furnished to me and the draft Transfer sent with the Contracts, then before the closing Kildare County Council came looking for an additional 600 Euros in Land Reg fees.  I told the clients who went berserk and accused me of being negligent and not giving a correct quote at the outset.  They refused to pay and I wasn't interested wasting time in debate with them so I had to dock my fee and I got the princey sum of 388 Euros per conveyance.

Clients love to play dumb when it comes to outlays, and assume that it's all the solicitors money.


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## Kate10 (9 Apr 2009)

That's really weird Moontheloon.  I completed the purchase of an affordable house from Galway CoCo a few months ago.  The clients (who are lovely people) paid all their fees including outlay upfront.  However turned out Galway Co Co paid all land reg fees so I was able to refund the money.


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