# Single parent but starting a family with new partner



## zen (14 Mar 2011)

Hi all

Just wondering if anyone could shine some light here, I think I'm entitled to nothing and it seems a bit unfair.

I have an child from a previous relationship (not married) that didn't work out.  Unlike most single parents her mother and I are cooperating very well.  I have the single parent tax credits for this child which is fine.

However, I have been in a relationship with my current girlfriend for 3 years now who's a non EU foreign national.  She's entitled to nothing, not allowed to work, not allowed to claim SW, I have her on VHI as request by the dept of immegration.  I pay for everything and receive no tax credits.  We have been living together for 1 1/2 years and we are now having a baby.  

Can I claim any tax credits for either her as (co-habiting couples)?
What about further tax credits for the new arrival.  For example, I'm claiming single parent tax credits for my first child but I'm not a "single parent" so to speak for the new child and I'm also not married!!


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## Mel (14 Mar 2011)

zen said:


> Unlike most single parents her mother and I are cooperating very well.


 
what does this have to do with your question? 



zen said:


> I have the single parent tax credits for this child which is fine.
> 
> We have been living together for 1 1/2 years and we are now having a baby.


 
I'm not sure if it is fine; you have been co-habiting for 1 1/2 years; ordinarily you are not allowed to claim the one-parent family tax credit in this instance. Your partner's status may or may not change this, but you should investigate. 



zen said:


> Can I claim any tax credits for either her as (co-habiting couples)?
> What about further tax credits for the new arrival. For example, I'm claiming single parent tax credits for my first child but I'm not a "single parent" so to speak for the new child and I'm also not married!!


 
There are no tax credits for non-married couples. 
I assume you can claim child benefit for the new baby.


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## niceoneted (14 Mar 2011)

Why don't you just marry her and you will be able to benefit from tax credits and she will be able to work here.


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## zen (15 Mar 2011)

Mel, thanks for the reply but you dont seem to be able to offer any real assistance.

What is the definition of the single parent tax credit???  

As you rightly said, I'm co-habiting....but.... not with the mother of the child I'm claiming the credit for.  You do get that bit right?  


As for getting married, I'm not religious.  And getting married for tax reasons would be financial suicide and blasphemous.  Hypothetically, IF I got married as per niceoneted I'd loose the one parent tax credit, gain the married tax credit. (which are the same'ish)

So where is the incentive? Technically I should be able to claim the one parent tax credit for the child I am the  single parent of, and get the married tax credit (if I got married).  Although allowed to work, my partner would not be working, she would be a full time mother while I remain the provider.


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## stephnyc (15 Mar 2011)

zen said:


> What is the definition of the single parent tax credit???


 
http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/leaflets/it9.html



zen said:


> As you rightly said, I'm co-habiting....but.... not with the mother of the child I'm claiming the credit for. You do get that bit right?


 
Yes, we get that! You are co-habiting (doesnt matter with who), so do not qualify AFAIK

From revenue.ie:

"You do not qualify for One-Parent Family Tax Credit if:

You are a person qualifying for the Married Person's Tax Credit *or*
You are a person living together with another person as man and wife "



zen said:


> Although allowed to work, my partner would not be working, she would be a full time mother while I remain the provider.


If you can afford this, while being tax compliant, then great!


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## Greta (15 Mar 2011)

The incentive to marry your girlfriend would be to provide her with a stable immigration status, that will allow her to work and eventually get permanent residence and citizenship. As she is also going to be the mother of your child, if you marry her, she won't face hassle if you die, as otherwise she could face the threat of deportation and your child may end up in another country. Even if she is going to be a full-time mother, it is quite different when it's entirely by choice and not because she is not allowed to work, it would give her options and choice which she doesn't have now, insecurity is a very stressful thing.

I don't see the point of not marrying her just on the point of principle, if you both intend to be together long-term. Of course, if you are not and think you may split up before too long, then marrying - just for short-term tax reasons - would be stupid. It wouldn't be blasphemous though, if it is a civil ceremony and not a religious one


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## truthseeker (15 Mar 2011)

zen said:


> What is the definition of the single parent tax credit???


 
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/e...ne_parent_family_tax_credits_and_reliefs.html

or 

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/credits/one-parent-family.html



zen said:


> As for getting married, I'm not religious. And getting married for tax reasons would be financial suicide and blasphemous.


 
I wasnt aware that getting married had anything to do with religion or blasphemy?!? Plenty of people marry in civil ceremonies that have no connection with any religion.



zen said:


> So where is the incentive? Technically I should be able to claim the one parent tax credit for the child I am the single parent of, and get the married tax credit (if I got married).


 
According to the links above you cannot be entitled to both the married tax credit and one parent tax credit at the same time. 

Nor can you be living with someone else as husband and wife.





> Must not be entitled to the Married Personal Tax Credit.
> Must not be living with another person as husband and wife.


So by the looks of above youre not entitled to the one parent family tax credit in your current situation - married or unmarried.

Perhaps youd be best off going to your local citizens information office for advice?

Incidentally another incentive for you to marry is to that you have full legal rights with regards to your child - something that unmarried fathers in Ireland do not have.


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## zen (15 Mar 2011)

tks guys I appreciate it.  This feedback is better. Constructive.  I'm blown away by the point on the co-habiting. Single co-habiting people might need to take to the streets for their rights to be recognised!!!
Co-habiting with someone who is not the childs parent AND not earning anything nor is she entitled to anything, one looses this credit!!!  This is hardly right.  Its like they want you to get married.

Tks Greta on your points.  Very valid.  Perhaps the registry office might be an option....  Churches are a no no for me.


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## truthseeker (15 Mar 2011)

zen said:


> Its like they want you to get married.


 
They DO want you to get married - or more precisely - marraige and the family have a protected status in our constitution.

I see it differently to you - why should you be entitled to one parent tax credit when you are not a one parent family? You have a partner - youre not a single parent. Its a different family - but still a family. 

There is no such thing as a single co-habiting person - you are either single or you are not - and if you are co-habiting you are not single.


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## Mel (15 Mar 2011)

zen said:


> tks guys I appreciate it. This feedback is better. Constructive. I'm blown away by the point on the co-habiting. Single co-habiting people might need to take to the streets for their rights to be recognised!!!
> Co-habiting with someone who is not the childs parent AND not earning anything nor is she entitled to anything, one looses this credit!!! This is hardly right. Its like they want you to get married.
> 
> Tks Greta on your points. Very valid. Perhaps the registry office might be an option.... Churches are a no no for me.


 
I advised that you need to investigate your situation - constructive - you may find that you are entitled to the credit considering your partner's status as it's unusual.


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## Mel (15 Mar 2011)

zen said:


> And getting married for tax reasons would be financial suicide and blasphemous. Hypothetically, IF I got married as per niceoneted I'd loose the one parent tax credit, gain the married tax credit. (which are the same'ish)
> 
> So where is the incentive? Technically I should be able to claim the one parent tax credit for the child I am the single parent of, and get the married tax credit (if I got married). Although allowed to work, my partner would not be working, she would be a full time mother while I remain the provider.


 
How would it be "financial suicide"? You'd gain a credit that you're entitled to, as opposed to one that you now seem to be claiming without entitlement. 
Check whether you are entitled to FIS - a previous post indicates that you are supporting a number of people.


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## zen (15 Mar 2011)

Hi Truth seeker.  Can you expand on "protected status"?  Is that a status privilage above a normal Irish single citizen?  If so, thats discrimation on martial status.

I believe married couples are being taxed more (and more to come) than single people since the new budget. Another reason for not taking this route. I saw an article from KPM showing the net incomve figures of a married couple were taxed more than a single person.  This is not constitutional.

The Single Parent Tax credit is nothing to do with single people, its single parents. Co-habiting has absolutely, positively *nothing *to do with my first child and should not be seen as consideration.  Single Parent tax credit should have nothing to do with whom i'm living with! I'm still a single parent *to that child*.  I do not (and my girlfried has the same view) expect her to clean/cloth or take care of my child.  Co-habiting is (or at least should be) irrelevant. My first childs mother is still alive and well.  My new partner did not adopt my first child.


Tks Mel, I'll check it out directly with the Revenue. Complicated situations like mine do not come under standard tax credits.  

Also, get this, the dept of immegration wont grant her full visa which will allow her to stay legitimately as they wont recognise us as a de facto couple. Still trying to prove this 3 years on....
The social welfare wont offer assistance to her as they see us as a couple!!!!
The revenue dont care unless we are married.

So you can see the different government agencies are just choosing what they want to suite themselves.  One sees us as a couple, the other doesn't and the third,well I'm still not sure!

I understood Truthseeke you are just the messenger and it specifically says 
You do not qualify if:
You are a person living together with another person as man and wife

Well if you are living together as man and wife.... does that not mean married, if so you should be claiming "as man and wife" married tax credits......


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## Mel (15 Mar 2011)

zen said:


> The Single Parent Tax credit is nothing to do with single people, its single parents. Co-habiting has absolutely, positively *nothing *to do with my first child and should not be seen as consideration. Single Parent tax credit should have nothing to do with whom i'm living with! I'm still a single parent *to that child*. I do not (and my girlfried has the same view) expect her to clean/cloth or take care of my child. Co-habiting is (or at least should be) irrelevant. My first childs mother is still alive and well. My new partner did not adopt my first child.


 
I'm also a single parent zen - you're not making any arguments that haven't been made before, but right now, however you see it, them's the rules.


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## Nige (15 Mar 2011)

zen said:


> I believe married couples are being taxed more (and more to come) than single people since the new budget. Another reason for not taking this route. I saw an article from KPM showing the net incomve figures of a married couple were taxed more than a single person. This is not constitutional.


 
There is no case (that I can think of) where two single people are taxed less than a married couple with the same income divided in the same way.  

If you get married, you are entitled to the married person's tax credit and, may be entitled to a "homecarer's" credit if one of the spouses is not working where there young children.  In addition, the standard rate band of a married person can be increased.


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## Bronte (16 Mar 2011)

It is quite amazing OP how you've managed to prove what a bureaucratic mess your status is and that of your girlfriend and of your next child to be will be. Yet you don't see the obvious benefit to everybody, not just you, of marriage.


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## zen (16 Mar 2011)

Folks, despite the "bureaucratic mess" you describe it to be and saracastically call it perfectly romantic, none of you seem to be able to see through the prejudicial smokescreen that we are very much love.  We are starting a family together. Ok, maybe its not (by your definition) of "traditional" but times change. This does not stop us from wanting to make the right decicions especially giving the current financial state of afairs we are in.  

It *cant *be a coincidence that every turn we take the government come out on top and joe public ends up loosing.  I've already shown that the different agencies pic and choose the circumstances that favours them.

Before anyone else jumps on the predujice band waggan, I pay about 1.5k tax every month and have been working since I was 14.  I have never claimed SW myself.  I'm not avoiding tax, never had.  I contribute to society in more ways than just financially.  I'm looking for the right advice so I know what decisions to make.

This society perpetuates marriage which might make somethings "convenient" but it goes against my personal values to do so.  I'm not religous in the traditional sense, more of a philanthropist.  I dont see why a ring (religous) or (marriage) legal document should have any influence in how we are taxed.  

Point taken Mel, "Thems the rule" So now I must make a decision...

Thanks for all your input!


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## huskerdu (16 Mar 2011)

zen said:


> This society perpetuates marriage which might make somethings "convenient" but it goes against my personal values to do so.  I'm not religous in the traditional sense, more of a philanthropist.  I dont see why a ring (religous) or (marriage) legal document should have any influence in how we are taxed.



Lots of people agree with you and it is frustrating but that is the law in Ireland at the moment.

You can take a principled stand against the law, and accept that this stand is important enough to you to put up with the cost involved or not.


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## dereko1969 (16 Mar 2011)

zen said:


> Folks, despite the "bureaucratic mess" you describe it to be and saracastically call it perfectly romantic, none of you seem to be able to see through the prejudicial smokescreen that we are very much love. We are starting a family together. Ok, maybe its not (by your definition) of "traditional" but times change. This does not stop us from wanting to make the right decicions especially giving the current financial state of afairs we are in.
> 
> It *cant *be a coincidence that every turn we take the government come out on top and joe public ends up loosing. I've already shown that the different agencies pic and choose the circumstances that favours them.
> 
> ...


 
I don't think anyone is questioning your love for each other or your contribution to society. What they have pointed out is that, according to the law as it stands, you are incorrectly claiming for single parent tax credit to which you are not entitled.

You are still confusing marriage with religion for some reason. There is no such link as has been pointed out to you in numerous posts. Marriage, under the current rules, whether people agree with it or not, would provide more certainty for your partner and yourself.

The law is an ass in this regard but there's not much you can do about it.


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## zen (16 Mar 2011)

tks huskedu, alas! I was begining to question my sanity.

LOL, I started off wondering if I was entitled to anything since I'm supporting more people and discovered a backhand across the face that I'm to loose further credits!LOL, what a quagmire.

I'll continue to claim my single parent tax credit which is miniscule compared to the amount of tax I (we all) pay as I disagree with the ambiguous definition.  I would challange it if I was audited.

I just gotta repeat this and laugh....  
"You are a person living together with another person as man and wife" 
EVEN THOUGH YOUR NOT MARRIED.....  How does one live with someone *AS *a man and wife if they are not married.  You live as *husband *and *wife*..... Another ethically enequality on men.  
They would have to prove you "live as man and wife" whatever that means. If there is a term or definition to describe this situation (other than marriage) then I would very much like to hear it. 

Ok guys I'll consider this closed, it seems no I'm not entitled to anything and I'm technically going to loose my existing credit for the most bizare reasons

for the record,,,,... mariage and religion are almost synomous....  please!...


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## alaskaonline (16 Mar 2011)

zen said:


> I'll continue to claim my single parent tax credit which is miniscule compared to the amount of tax I (we all) pay as I disagree with the ambiguous definition.  I would challange it if I was audited.



Good luck with that! The rules are there for a reason, not to annoy you but more so to ensure people aren't taking advantage of the credits out there (plenty of people out there that do this). Did you call the Revenue and Social Welfare in the meantime? Did you talk to your local Welfare officer who should be the best advise point for you?

Living as "husband and wife" even if not described in the best way (which you will find are a few things on the Revenue & Welfare site but let's not get into that) simply means, sharing a bed and/or a partner relationship with someone else. With your partner being pregnant it's pretty obvious you were living like "husband and wife" and therefore as others posted you are not entitled to the One Parent Family Tax Credit. This has nothing to do with who is the mother of your first child by the way. It would be different if the woman you are living with is not your partner but rents a room in the house. Then you are still entitled to the Credit. 
The state recognizes that a single parent might struggle more financially than two people (partner relationship) living together. Of course this is not the case with you because your partner doesn't work but technically she could and then two incomes are present.

Either way, check with your Welfare officer. You might be entitled to FIS, Medical Card, Back-to-School Allowance (if your first born is in school) etc.


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## zen (16 Mar 2011)

I know we could go on and on about this but its more complicated, she's not a resident, not allowed to work etc.. etc... I stand my ground that living with someone else who is neither genetically/morally or financially obliged to the child can have any influence on a tax credit that is for single parents. but apparantly we live to serve, those are the rules...
Its been a rollercoaster of a thread, I do have food for thought. I liked the idea of the civil ceromony.


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## Potatoeman (16 Mar 2011)

zen said:


> "You are a person living together with another person as man and wife"



When I read that I assume she is married to someone else and is living with you.


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## mammyof2 (16 Mar 2011)

zen said:


> for the record,,,,... mariage and religion are almost synomous.... please!...


 
Not at all! I married in a civil ceremony in 2005 in the Registry Office in Dublin and it was so busy that each wedding is only allocated half an hour! Since the, the rules have changed to allow civil ceremonies in venues outside the registry office (registrar will come to registered venues like hotels, country houses etc) and there is now apparently a 6 month waiting list.

Thousands of couples get married every year in civil ceremonies. I could not have been more deadly serious about taking my marriage vows in the presence of the civil registrar than if I had been in the Vatican being married by the Pope.


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## Bronte (17 Mar 2011)

zen said:


> , she's not a resident, not allowed to work etc.. etc... .


 
And presumable she would be allowed to be resident and to work if you married her.   By her relationship with you and the child she is having she is becoming totally dependant on you.


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## merille (17 Mar 2011)

your gf is pregnant, she isnt allowed to work here. also if (well you never know) you leave her - what she will do then? i cant even imagine to be in her position, must be really hard. ahhh...im only a woman aswell i guess


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## alaskaonline (17 Mar 2011)

zen said:


> she's not a resident



So she is not living in Ireland with you? Well then fair enough. I was under the impression you share a house with her...apologies for any misunderstandings then.


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## Mel (17 Mar 2011)

I apologise for the flippant remark. 
Your partner is in a very precarious position. As are you. If you split up there is nothing to stop her leaving the country and taking your child with her. 
I would recommend doing as much research into your situation and the implications thereof. You recently put a lot of effort into sorting out a broken mobile phone. Your partner surely deserves at least the same.


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## zen (18 Mar 2011)

Mel/Merille
The thread is about discovering tax entitlements/obligations in an unusual circumstance and not the despair for the females of this world.  Take it outside to another thread.  

Potatoeman
Thats genius. I'm LMAO, no I'm not living with someone else's wife LOL but that is exactly what is implied by that statement! "as man and (someone elses)wife" brilliant. 

Mamyof2
Fantastic information, thanks for that! I'll definitely look into this avenue.

Bronte
Correct, all are dependent upon me. This would not change under marriage.  Hopefully she will be granted stamp4 this year.  This means we will be officially recognised by the state as a "de-facto couple".  When we are officially recognised she can work (if she wants to). I wont get any more Tax credits but according to what we discovered about the "living as man and wife" debacle I'll most likely loose the single parent one.

Alaskaonline
She is not a "resident" per sei but she is living with me... (bare with me) She is on a stamp 3 which allows her to stay for a year on year basis under strict critera.  She is not allowed to work/claim SW, she must be fully insured and not be a burden on society.  After 4 years (this year will be her 4th)she can be naturalised or obtain a stamp4 of which she can get a PRSI number etc.... As I said above, when we are recognised as a couple I'll talk to the Revenue. If the state does not recognise us as a couple then I'm not foregoing my single parent tax credit. Getting married via civil arrangement could be an option but one cannot be blamed for not running off the cliffs of marriage when you read time and time again that men get taken to the cleaners when things dont go well.  I know we cant do pre-nups in this country but if we could I'd do the civil arrangements not for tax reasons but just so she can have full residence.  The child will automatically have full Irish citizenship so no problems there. (so Mel, she cant actually take the child which will be a first for single fathers!)  

The EU had passed a bill that permits the parents of non-EU nationality to become EU citizens themselves if their children are born in the EU.  I believe this holds no ground here, I'll talk to the citizens information about this. If she can get her citzenship this way (which is the only reason to get married as the tax credits are miniscule) then there wont be any point to get married other than its "just nicer" to be married.  However, I have also read (I'm open to correction here) that under common law after living with someone for a certain period means co-habiting couples have the same legal entitlements as married couples.

for those of you who are interested.
I will be talking to the citizens information in 2 weeks time to get the proper guidance on what the best thing to do is.  I will post my findings.

for those who want to continue to attack there are other threads for that.


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## truthseeker (18 Mar 2011)

zen - what I meant by protected status of married couples in the constitution is that Article 41.3 of the Constitution promises to protect the institution of "marriage" with special care:


> The State pledges itself to guard with special care the institution of Marriage, on which the Family is founded, and to protect it against attack.


 



zen said:


> ............one cannot be blamed for not running off the cliffs of marriage when you read time and time again that men get taken to the cleaners when things dont go well.


 
I dont understand what you mean by this - in the case of seperation either the courts or mediation would come to a fair arrangement regarding maintenance/support.



zen said:


> If she can get her citzenship this way (which is the only reason to get married as the tax credits are miniscule) then there wont be any point to get married other than its "just nicer" to be married.


 
Its not 'just nicer'. It gives both of you and your child more security and legal rights - for you, rights to your child and for both of you, inheritance rights - Im sure there are more (tax credits), etc

What reason is there for having a relationship with someone, living with them, having and raising a child together - NOT to get married?


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## Mel (3 May 2011)

zen said:


> for those of you who are interested.
> I will be talking to the citizens information in 2 weeks time to get the proper guidance on what the best thing to do is. I will post my findings.
> 
> for those who want to continue to attack there are other threads for that.


 
Did you have your meeting with CI?


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## Joey1 (4 May 2011)

Hi Zen, I understand your post is about tax and stuff, but as you are about to become a parent, you should know that as you are unmarried you will have no rights to your child, ie neither custody nor guardianship. Technically this means nothing unless your relationship breaks down and then your GF could move back to her home country and there is little you can do about it. Check out Treoir.ie for more information on this.
WRT to the Single Parent Tax credit, you are claiming this fraudulently, and yes, I agree, it is mad, its not like your GF is in a position to finacially contribute, but that is the tax law of the land.


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## mel26 (21 May 2011)

As far as i am aware the Revenue are going to introduce some sort of tax credit for co-habiting couples similar to that for married couples.


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## zen (23 Jun 2011)

Sorry for the late response people.... I'm having the meeting with them tomorrow, I got the wrong information from a rep in the Thomas St CI office....

My son is born and registered and we are ecstatic. Got him registered in Joyce House so he is officially an Irish citizen.  Now we continue with my partners debacle.  

There are a few grounds by which you can get a stamp4, here are 2 applicable to us
1-Defacto relationship with an Irish person...- which after 3 years trying to prove they decided to grant but the grinch at immegration specifically said she is not entitled to any state benefits when she gets it!!! 4 years here and hasn't been entitled to didly squat.
2-Parent to an Irish child.  she is going to apply to stay with permission to work on this ground as its a longer visa and hopefully she will be entitled to something! She has a pps number so why cant she claim SW?  She needs her own financial security.  When the young lad is older she will look for a job which she really wants to do. Who wants to sit around doing nothing!

TruthSeeker
Tks for the feedback but I dont see what "rights" you refer to. If you could rattle off a few I'd appreciate it, ie. hypothetical circumstances whereby being married would favour me over not being married.  Marriage is an institiution....umpf!
I've seen this "mediation" in progress, it aint pretty and its not balanced, men always get burned.  This is not speculative, this is observation, guys in my job, friends etc...
Answer to your final question, to live together freely to do what each other wants to do, when they want to do it is feedom to me. As I said before I have no loyalty to a any church and marriage being called an institution kinda puts the flame out in the romance. I dont need no instution, be it religous or government quango to tell me how to live nor do I still see any benefits for me as a man to get married.  Marriage for me was alway a sacret religious ceremony and should never have been allowed to be hijacked by the government. You get married to the church and then married to the state. This baloney sits ok with you lot?

Joey, I appreciate the few words, I understand but I have a complicated situation. I am and always will be a law abiding tax paying serf, have been since starting work at the age of 14, never claimed a cent on SW and will continue till I retire at 100 (by the time I reach retirement) by which there will be no state pension fund left (see Argentina). Will check out Treoir, tks for the tip.

Rubyanne, I'll keep my ear to the ground for that one!

All in all I think it is an interesting topic and I for one am learning a lot! 

Will keep you posted...!


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## zen (6 Oct 2011)

Small update for those interested

My partner has stamp4 based on being a partent to an Irish child see the recent case 

[broken link removed]

Whiles she is entitled to stay she is not entitled to any Job Seekers or any state benefit and I'm not entitled to tax credits, in fact, I'm to loose one. C'mon Ireland!


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