# Worried Sick - Caught with no Motor Tax



## Smellz (12 Dec 2005)

I was recently stopped by a Garda and i had no Motor Tax on my car - I know i was very stupid and please don't give me any lectures  The Garda said that he'll send me a summons to appear in court and i'm worried sick about this - I'm considering studying for a career in the legal area and i'm so worried that this will put a black mark against my name. Has anybody been in this situation ? Will i need to get a solicator for the court appearance ? What is the likely outcome, Fine/imprissionment ? Is there anything i can do to avoid this going to court ? What if i made a plea at the Garda station ? I've since back paid all the tax.


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## Vanilla (12 Dec 2005)

It's likely that you are facing a minor fine at most. A road traffic conviction is not a bar to a legal career. If it were I can think of quite a few of my colleagues ( and myself) who would be out of a job! You can have a solicitor represent you, or you can represent yourself. Strictly speaking you should appear in court but if represented by a solicitor you do not really need to for this kind of minor matter.

As for trying the guards, you can always try. You'd never know. Much is up to the individual guards discretion. If they do go ahead you may not receive a summons for up to 6 months or slightly longer.


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## elcato (12 Dec 2005)

I wouldn't approach the guard at this stage. You will as pointed out get a summons to appear at court on a certain day and you will simply be asked how you're pleading and just plead guilty and say you have back paid your tax since. A good story about poverty, studenty/sad type may help your cause with the judge and you'll get a small fine. The guard may not even issue the summons though as things like this can get lost in transit or forgotton about or dare I say may interfere with getting off on time. The main thing is not to worry too much, there's loads of people have bigger problems than this.


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## Margret (12 Dec 2005)

You will have to go to court, yes. You will most likely get a fine. It is not that serious really.


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## Vanilla (13 Dec 2005)

If you are going to represent yourself, then you should ensure that you have produced the evidence of back paying the tax to the guard before court and that he is satisfied with same. Also a good excuse to go talk to the guard now and see if there is any way he might not proceed with the summons. Also be careful how you present a sob story to the judge- poor student with car simply will not wash. In general you will do better with a solicitor representing you who will know what will work in your favour.


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## Diddles (13 Dec 2005)

Smellz,
I find it a bit weird that the guard in question did not give you seven days to produce a valid tax cert at a station of your choice!
It happens all the time so get your tax, head to the Garda stn and produce it for inspection,ask for the guard in question if you know who he/she was.
They wont proceed if you do this.


D


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## Johno (13 Dec 2005)

Diddles,

You don't get 7 days to produce a Tax Disc as it is an offence to fail to display a valid tax disc. If that was the case no one would tax their car until they were stopped and then run out and get one.

You are giving 10 days to produce your insurance certificate which of course can't be back dated.

Johno


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## Humpback (13 Dec 2005)

Johno said:
			
		

> You don't get 7 days to produce a Tax Disc as it is an offence to fail to display a valid tax disc. If that was the case no one would tax their car until they were stopped and then run out and get one.


 
I was given 7 days to show up in a Garda Station with a tax disc that I wasn't displaying at a time when I was stopped. At least I had the tax disc and had neglected to put it on display.

Given the comment by the OP about backpaying tax, it seems here that they hadn't actually paid the tax at all. 

Which isn't as innocent a mistake as not displaying the tax. It's tax evasion - throw the book at them. No sympathy at all.


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## iBot (13 Dec 2005)

Smellz - I wouldnt rule out the possibility of going to prison for a little while.  Tax evasion is a serious, serious offence.  Why on earth did you not tax your car?


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## kazbah (13 Dec 2005)

Do you get a summons straight away for no tax 
I presumed it would be a fine first.


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## tml (13 Dec 2005)

slightly off topic, my tax is out of date, needed to be renewed in Nov, but car has been off the road because i was on holidays for a month and then has been in the garage since i came home so im only back motoring this week, does anyone know can i still renew my tax online or because there are arrears will i have to go into the tax office??


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## kazbah (13 Dec 2005)

Not online, you need to go to your local Garda station and get them to sign a form saying the car was off the road, to exempt you from arrears.


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## Humpback (13 Dec 2005)

tml said:
			
		

> slightly off topic, my tax is out of date, needed to be renewed in Nov, but car has been off the road because i was on holidays for a month and then has been in the garage since i came home so im only back motoring this week, does anyone know can i still renew my tax online or because there are arrears will i have to go into the tax office??



You need to get a guard to sign for the fact that the car's been off the road - but I don't know if a holiday counts as enough to get this done. And you need to got to a tax office ad the internet automatically charges you overdue tax.


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## Vanilla (14 Dec 2005)

> Smellz - I wouldnt rule out the possibility of going to prison for a little while. Tax evasion is a serious, serious offence. Why on earth did you not tax your car?


 
Ah for gods sake, stop trying to wind this poor person up. They made a mistake, they got caught, they are going to be punished. But unless they have a list of prior convictions longer than my arm, there is no possibility of prison for this offence.


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## noddy (14 Dec 2005)

Smellz- You dont say how long the tax was out of date, or long you had the car.But since you have paid it up to date,you will be alright. Atmost a small fine,no need to worry.Let us know how you get on.


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## Diddles (14 Dec 2005)

Hate if some of ye were in the justice system
Refer to previous post dont worry 
Its a minor offence actually v minor

D


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## ClubMan (15 Dec 2005)

Diddles said:
			
		

> Hate if some of ye were in the justice system


Aren't we all in the justice system as potential jurors?


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## demoivre (15 Dec 2005)

Abolish road tax and you will solve the problem of road tax evasion - increase the price of petrol/ diesel to compensate the exchequer. Those who use roads the most will also pay the most ie a sales rep in a 2l car doing 50k miles per year currently pays the same road tax as someone doing 7k miles per year in their 2l motor - not fair imo.  Forecourts can include the increased fuel taxes along with their VAT returns which they have to do anyway .


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## ubiquitous (15 Dec 2005)

2 big problems with this proposal:

1. It would discriminate against rural dwellers and favour urban dwellers.
2. There is nothing to stop the govt reintroducing road tax at a later date while leaving the increased excise duty on petrol & diesel in situ.


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## Lauren (15 Dec 2005)

Wheres that legendary *cough* post about road road tax evasion? I was dying to see the "reprimands" that would ensue...


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## ClubMan (15 Dec 2005)

Lauren said:
			
		

> Wheres that legendary *cough* post about road road tax evasion? I was dying to see the "reprimands" that would ensue...


If you mean the one that was poster here earlier today (hardly time for it to become legendary?) then it was deleted due to it condoning/recommending illegal activity.


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## Lauren (15 Dec 2005)

Fair enough too. Understand that but thought we might have had at least half an hour of b**** slapping to view!


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## Humpback (15 Dec 2005)

demoivre said:
			
		

> Abolish road tax and you will solve the problem of road tax evasion - increase the price of petrol/ diesel to compensate the exchequer.



I heartily 2nd this proposal, and I'd include more tolls as well. And this is even though I'll be at risk of being worse off myself, but I'd much rather I was charged on the basis of usage than just for the privelage.



			
				ubiquitous said:
			
		

> 1. It would discriminate against rural dwellers and favour urban dwellers.


 
Not really. For example, haven't you heard the RGDATA reasoning for being against the abolition of the groceries order? It'll apparently force all supermarkets to go "out of town" and therefore make all us city dwellers have to travel more to do our shopping.

Anyway, the differences in petrol prices will remain because of competition, and therefore in a lot of cases, rural petrol costs are less than in urban areas, so they gain that way.



			
				ubiquitous said:
			
		

> 2. There is nothing to stop the govt reintroducing road tax at a later date while leaving the increased excise duty on petrol & diesel in situ.


 
There's nothing to stop the government doing anything, anytime, so applying this reasoning to a specific instance such as this doesn't really add to the pros or cons of the specific proposal above.



			
				Lauren said:
			
		

> Wheres that legendary *cough* post about road road tax evasion? I was dying to see the "reprimands" that would ensue...


 
Yeah, bring it back, please.  
I wanted to have a go at that, sorry, respond, as well. 

The statment that the poster had "a 2.5l car and I can't afford the road tax" just left themselves open for so so many comebacks and "suggestions".


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## Lauren (15 Dec 2005)

Clubman, I meant legendary as in "couldnt believe someone would have the nerve to put it in writing kinda legendary", not in the positive sense...I've been shaking my head since I read it first!


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## ClubMan (15 Dec 2005)

ronan_d_john said:
			
		

> Anyway, the differences in petrol prices will remain because of competition, and therefore in a lot of cases, rural petrol costs are less than in urban areas, so they gain that way.


How so? Surely competition is fiercer in urban rather than rural areas so one would expect it to be the other way around (i.e. cheaper in urban areas, dearer in rural areas)?


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## Humpback (15 Dec 2005)

ClubMan said:
			
		

> How so? Surely competition is fiercer in urban rather than rural areas so one would expect it to be the other way around (i.e. cheaper in urban areas, dearer in rural areas)?


 
Only going by personal experience ClubMan. For a period of time, living in Dublin Southside, and travelling a fair bit to the west coast, price of petrol was cheaper in Donegal and Mayo than it was in Dublin.


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## ClubMan (15 Dec 2005)

Fair enough - your personal experience trumps my lack of direct knowledge in this area.


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## Janet (15 Dec 2005)

ronan_d_john said:
			
		

> Only going by personal experience ClubMan. For a period of time, living in Dublin Southside, and travelling a fair bit to the west coast, price of petrol was cheaper in Donegal and Mayo than it was in Dublin.



My experience would be the exact opposite - I always make sure to top up before leaving Dublin as I can rarely find cheaper down the country.  Wouldn't spend much time in Mayo or Donegal though.  Mainly midlands and Galway.


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## demoivre (15 Dec 2005)

ubiquitous said:
			
		

> 2 big problems with this proposal:
> 
> 1. It would discriminate against rural dwellers and favour urban dwellers.
> 2. There is nothing to stop the govt reintroducing road tax at a later date while leaving the increased excise duty on petrol & diesel in situ.



In relation to 

1. Not necessarily . You get less miles per gallon driving in urban areas than you do in rural areas.

2. The gov. of the day makes policy decisions. It would be extremely odd imo for a government not to make what they thought was a prudent decision on taxation on  the basis that the next government in office might make changes to that decision - seems an exceptionally odd way to decide on gov. policy imo . Should the present gov. not have reduced cgt from 40% to 20 % because a future Fine Gael/ labour gov. may well reinstate the higher level?


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## levelpar (15 Dec 2005)

Hi Worried Sick, As you are thinking about entering the legal profession, maybe you should see what you are made of (and get some practice in) by representing yourself.  Also, By chancing your arm in not taxing your car and thereby breaking the law, you are definitely the right material for the legal profession.


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## ClubMan (15 Dec 2005)

ClubMan said:
			
		

> Fair enough - your personal experience trumps my lack of direct knowledge in this area.


Hoever, looks like your personal experience does not trump my research capabilities!  According to [broken link removed]:


> *Petrol prices slightly lower in Dublin*
> 
> Average unleaded petrol prices were 1.6% lower in Dublin while average diesel prices were 1.1% lower in Dublin. (See Table 3).


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## Vanilla (15 Dec 2005)

> [Also, By chancing your arm in not taxing your car and thereby breaking the law, you are definitely the right material for the legal profession.


 
Right, based on what exactly?


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## Humpback (15 Dec 2005)

ClubMan said:
			
		

> Hoever, looks like your personal experience does not trump my research capabilities!  According to [broken link removed]:


 
And there was me thinking I'd gotten away with the unsubstantiated personal experience comments  . I saw this research today as well.

I haven't done that travelling route for some time now, so I've no problems with stats/research that says otherwise.

However, given the AA's average figures, we know how useful average number presentations can be. Does anyone actually pay 105.8c for a litre of petrol at the moment?


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## CCOVICH (15 Dec 2005)

ClubMan said:
			
		

> Aren't we all in the justice system as potential jurors?


 
Why do you assume we're all potential jurors?


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## ClubMan (15 Dec 2005)

Because I'm assuming that most people here are _Irish _citizens between the ages of 18 and 70 and thus (with some exceptions) .


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## ubiquitous (16 Dec 2005)

> For a period of time, living in Dublin Southside, and travelling a fair bit to the west coast, price of petrol was cheaper in Donegal and Mayo than it was in Dublin.



I can't comment on your own personal experience but for a long time Donegal has been generally recognised (eg by the likes of the AA) as one of the more expensive areas in the country to buy fuel. Like Janet, I always make sure to buy petrol in Dublin as it is rarely cheaper down the country. 



> For example, haven't you heard the RGDATA reasoning for being against the abolition of the groceries order? It'll apparently force all supermarkets to go "out of town" and therefore make all us city dwellers have to travel more to do our shopping



Frankly, I don't have a whole lot of confidence in RGDATA's 'reasoning' on this and related topics.


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## Kimble (16 Dec 2005)

ubiquitous said:
			
		

> Like Janet, I always make sure to buy petrol in Dublin as it is rarely cheaper down the country.



Not always the case. Cork and Kerry eg Tralee and Tesco, Killarney are cheaper.


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## Humpback (16 Dec 2005)

ubiquitous said:
			
		

> for a long time Donegal has been generally recognised (eg by the likes of the AA) as one of the more expensive areas in the country to buy fuel.


 
Like I said, on average possibly, however there are always people who sell below the average - that thing called competition that we all love to see. 

There was always a particular petrol station on the Donegal road out of Killybegs for example that was always (at the time) significantly cheaper than either other places in Donegal, or Dublin southside.


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## CCOVICH (18 Dec 2005)

Donegal Town is quite reasonable for petrol.  There is also a place in Letterkenny called Tinneys (the pumps are in the yard of their depot in Bonagee) that is significantly cheaper than most stations. Anyway, this hasn't much to do with the 'caught with no motor tax' issue.......


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## Guest127 (18 Dec 2005)

road tax was abolished in 1977 by the jack lynch led ff governement. it was reintroduced slowly ( not that slowly) over the next few budgets ie registration tax I think they called it first then finally back to road tax. in theory they put this tax on the fuel at pumps but of course we know that when road tax was reintroduced the tax  on fuel never reduced.


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## ragazza (19 Dec 2005)

Hi OP,

I was caught with my car tax 11 months out of date, and was summonsed to court, so can tell you exactly what happens.

I arrived in the court (get there early since there is not much parking around). You are not given any directions on what to do - just given a number and ushered into a large very noisy courtroom. It wasnt a courtroom with raised seats like a cinema - just a room with rows of benches and a raised area for the judge in front. 
The place was bedlam - about 100 people in the room; people in handcuffs shouting and being restrained by gardai, other people coming in and out of the courtroom and yelling and banding doors. I could barely hear a word the judge was saying on the other cases, and was afraid that I would miss my turn (since the numbers seemed to move very quickly and with the racket would be very easy to miss yours).

Anyway, when it came to my turn I went up to the area in front and had to confirm my name, and the judge called for the garda who had booked me. I was lucky in that she didnt turn up, so it was thrown out of court. (Many other cases where thrown out of court that morning too - so you may be lucky).

So I wouldnt worry about it - you have now back-paid your taxes, so the most you would get is a small fine.

Good luck!


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## ClubMan (19 Dec 2005)

ragazza said:
			
		

> Anyway, when it came to my turn I went up to the area in front and had to confirm my name, and the judge called for the garda who had booked me. I was lucky in that she didnt turn up, so it was thrown out of court. (Many other cases where thrown out of court that morning too - so you may be lucky).


But what happens if they are not lucky and the relevant _Garda _does turn up in court?


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## Humpback (19 Dec 2005)

ClubMan said:
			
		

> But what happens if they are not lucky and the relevant _Garda _does turn up in court?


 
Make sure that they don't.   Have you never seen the Sopranos????


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## podgerodge (19 Dec 2005)

Vanilla said:
			
		

> Ah for gods sake, stop trying to wind this poor person up. They made a mistake, they got caught, they are going to be punished. But unless they have a list of prior convictions longer than my arm, there is no possibility of prison for this offence.



I doubt very much that this person made a mistake (except the mistake of stupidity).  If the fines for this are small then that's wrong.  Why the hell should I pay my road tax while others don't until they get caught and only pay a small fine.  I hope he gets the book thrown at him.

Same with the TV licence (or lack of ) brigade - I met someone last week that got off scott free when they showed the court they had just gone out and purchased a license - how's that gonna encourage people to pay.


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## Humpback (20 Dec 2005)

podgerodge said:
			
		

> I doubt very much that this person made a mistake (except the mistake of stupidity). If the fines for this are small then that's wrong. Why the hell should I pay my road tax while others don't until they get caught and only pay a small fine. I hope he gets the book thrown at him.
> 
> Same with the TV licence (or lack of ) brigade - I met someone last week that got off scott free when they showed the court they had just gone out and purchased a license - how's that gonna encourage people to pay.


 
Hear hear.... and I hope it's a very big book....


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## Vanilla (20 Dec 2005)

I agree it's a fair cop. However in the overall scheme of things it is still a minor offence. Don't forget that the court will ensure there is no loss of revenue to the state, this person will have to attend court or pay someone to attend for them, if its a rural area, may well have their name in the paper, and will still end up with a conviction and a fine. For a first offence, I think that's punishment enough.


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## ubiquitous (20 Dec 2005)

Mary Kenny wrote a very interesting article in the Indo magazine recently about what she called the 'Stasiland' phenomenon - that large numbers of people in this country are now calling for the State, in all its guises, to punish citizens for each and every transgression of the law, without taking account of mitigating circumstances and without any distinction between habitual and serious offenders and those whose crimes are few & minor in comparision.  

She likened this phenomenon to the way that the former East German government used the dreaded Stasi secret police establishment to  mercilessly bully its citizens into conformity with its laws and political ideals. 

I think its quite bizarre that we seem to be heading in the same direction, as evidenced by some of the comments above.


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## ClubMan (20 Dec 2005)

There must be an equivalent of Godwin's Law that can be invoked in the context of such hyperbolous comparisons between the prosecution of tax evasion and other misdemeanours by the _Irish _state and the operations of the infamous _DDR _secret police?


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## ubiquitous (20 Dec 2005)

In fairness Ms Kenny's comments were more concerned with the attitudes underlying the new wave of what was once called the 'string 'em up brigade' than the actual implementation of the law by the authorities.


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## Humpback (20 Dec 2005)

ubiquitous said:
			
		

> large numbers of people in this country are now calling for the State, in all its guises, to punish citizens for each and every transgression of the law, without taking account of mitigating circumstances and without any distinction between habitual and serious offenders and those whose crimes are few & minor in comparision.


 
We didn't get any mitigating circumstances from the OP with regards to why they didn't pay their car tax - none were offered as an excuse. This lead me to believe, and other here, to believe that they didn't pay the tax on purpose.

We also had the clown who's posts were deleted with the 2.5l car who didn't pay the tax because it was too expensive, and purposefully disregarded the the law as well.

These are situations where I say throw the book at them. To be bringing comments regarding "Stasiland" and that ridiculous article by Mary Kenny into it isn't really adding to the discussion.

Motor tax, to all intents and purposes, is a luxury tax. As is a television licence. If you can't afford the tax on the item, don't use the item.

The same people who won't pay their motor tax are people who'll (I'm guessing) not really care about the price of petrol, who'll drive absolutely everywhere, and will pay a fortune for parking just because they drove somewhere.

Similarly, it's quite likely that people who won't pay for their TV licence will still pay €90 or whatever every couple of months to have Sky Sports and Sky Movies.

As someone who can afford my luxuries, and pay the taxes on these, I don't think it's in any way similar to "Stasiland" or the "string 'em up brigade" to have a little pleasure when people who don't pay their taxes are caught.

And, in the true meaning of Stasiland (from my memory of leaving cert history), I won't actually be informing the authorities about those people in Ireland who aren't paying the taxes they should.


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