# Buy the site first or seek planning permission first???



## gizzy (31 Mar 2011)

My partner and I are interested in buying a beautiful site in Sligo.The site does have planning permission for a small dormer bungalow with no occupancy clause.
Our problem is that it is not the house we want to build.We are happy to stick to a bungalow,but something more contemporary and slightly bigger.We know that obviously we will have to submit planning permission,but we are very confused as to what we do and in what order.
The Estate Agent says we have to buy the site first,then see an Architect/Engineer about the design we want and finally submit the plans to the council to seek approval.However this worries me as I'm afraid if the council reject our plans,we are then stuck with a site which we cannot build on.But on the other hand,if we were to do it the opposite way round and submit plans before buying the site, is it worth paying to have a house designed for a site which is not yet ours?
If there is anyone with any knowledge as to A.the likelihood of us getting permission and B.in what order do we proceed from here, we would be very grateful for any tips or advice.It is also worth nothing that the current planning permission expires in August!
Thank you very much in advance!


----------



## Brendan Burgess (31 Mar 2011)

Tough one indeed.

There is just no way for you to be sure that you can achieve what you want.

You can buy the site and hope to get planning permission. 

You can offer to buy the site subject to planning permission - the vendor is unlikely to agree to such a sale. 

Your best approach is to talk to an architect or planning consultant in the area and ask them to give you their best guess. They might be able to talk to the planners and ask them their view. But you will not know the final result until An Bord Pleanála has made a decision on any appeal. 

I think you have to walk away from it.


----------



## threebedsemi (31 Mar 2011)

Gizzy

Your application would be for a 'change of house type' from that previously granted, which on the face of it should be straightforward enough. In theory the subject matter of the application is just a change of house type and if you don’t dramatically alter the size of height from that originally granted, you should be able to obtain planning.

However you should bear in mind the following:
1. Depending on when the original planning permission was granted, it is possible that the requirements regarding effluent treatment for single houses has changed in the meantime. Some planning authorities are finally getting 'tough' with regard to this, and they may request that the site be retested, or that you otherwise show how the proposal will meet the current EPA guidelines. This can cause all sorts of problems on sites which were 'borderline' to begin with.

2. You should carefully examine (or have someone do it for you) the original planning file for anything which that might throw up (planners and other departments internal reports sometimes raise issues of concern which are ignored at the time but may have become more important with subsequent changes to development plans etc.). Also check if there were any observations of objections to the original application.

3. Check to see if the application site has been moved to a different zone in a development plan since planning was granted, or is set to be moved in a draft plan . By this I mean has the area in general been moved into or out of a zone in which stricter 'housing need' guidelines are now in play. 

I agree with BB that you won’t know for certain until you have a grant of planning permission in your hand. 

After all that, and on the positive side, it should be possible to obtain permission for a contemporary design in Sligo. There are several good (and some not so good) precedents for contemporary houses in the county. 

Copy the original planning file, do your homework, and arrange a meeting with the relevant planning officer to discuss his or her opinion on your chances, how the situation has changed since the original permission was granted, and if there are in their opinion any limitations with regard to heights, massing etc. 

You should consider appointing an architect for this phase of the operation, and to attend the meeting with you if possible. 

In my experience an application for a change of house type rarely gets refused solely on the house design itself.

www.studioplustwo.com


----------



## onq (1 Apr 2011)

gizzy said:


> My partner and I are interested in buying a beautiful site in Sligo.The site does have planning permission for a small dormer bungalow with no occupancy clause.
> Our problem is that it is not the house we want to build.We are happy to stick to a bungalow,but something more contemporary and slightly bigger.We know that obviously we will have to submit planning permission,but we are very confused as to what we do and in what order.
> The Estate Agent says we have to buy the site first,then see an Architect/Engineer about the design we want and finally submit the plans to the council to seek approval.However this worries me as I'm afraid if the council reject our plans,we are then stuck with a site which we cannot build on.But on the other hand,if we were to do it the opposite way round and submit plans before buying the site, is it worth paying to have a house designed for a site which is not yet ours?
> If there is anyone with any knowledge as to A.the likelihood of us getting permission and B.in what order do we proceed from here, we would be very grateful for any tips or advice.It is also worth nothing that the current planning permission expires in August!
> Thank you very much in advance!



+1 what threebedsemi and Brendan have posted, but the simple fact is that you've left this very late for an extended planning strategy ending with a hopefully successful appeal.
My experience of the nearby Donegal planning process is that a lot can rest for the success or otherwise on you having a connection to the area and the detail of the development plan.

It can also drag on for an extended period.

The alternative solutions seem to be; -

- offer a deposit and enter a contract to purchase subject to permission.
- risk the purchase and seek a change of house type.

Its clear that no route is a certainty, and this is why I say be very wary of people acting for the Vendor.
I note that its a buyer's market out there, with land and house prices continuing to fall, so perhaps consider this - 

Turn the situation to your advantage by waiting until the planning expires, offer a deposit and get consent to seek permission.
You would still have to fund a full application but here you'd be paying for something you'd want and were tied into with a deposit.

If not, the term "no occupancy clause" is something an estate agent of solicitor might use - take no comfort from advice from such persons.
They usually act for the Vendor and they offer "advice" which can hardly be said to be independent or professional - they just want the sale!

You need to have the site, the permitted design, the permission wording and the history of the permission process competently and independently assessed.
Then you need to take professional advice in relation to both  the permission and the likelihood of getting a revised permission by an architect or planning consultant.


ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon     as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be     taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in     Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at     hand.


----------



## RKQ (4 Apr 2011)

I agree with all the good advice above.
Personally I'd buy the site _subject to planning permission_, provided the current planning permission was granted within the current Development Plan (Check soil test to ensure it still complies with Council's latest requirements - EPA test etc)

Change of house type could be discussed at a Pre-planning meeting with the local Planner. This can easily be arranged by you, directly with the Planning dept. Its relatively informal but could be ideal to discuss "change of house type" with the Planner.

Choose an Architect / Designer by reputation. You don't have to go back to the original Designer, but you might want to get a quote from him / her. Get at least three written quotes from reputable Agents. Look around the County to see if there is a house or design that you like and approach that Designer.

The Contract should give you a period of time to submit a new design & receive a Grant of Permission, at least 6 months. Talk to your Solicitor. If the owner wants to sell the site to you, they'll agree to "subject to planning permission".


----------

