# Unfair selection for redundancy?



## vfillafan (30 Apr 2009)

I have a situation where I was told I had been made redundant from my job  March 30th and asked to leave the company immediately. I was paid up to the 28th of April and got statutory redundancy but no consultation happened prior to the redundancy apart from a series of meetings keeping everyone informed that the work had been dropping off and that we would have to take two weeks holiday and would be on a 4 day week in May. The only time redundancy was mentioned was at the employee meeting the previous week where it was said that they may have to consider redundancies.



Do you think it is worthwhile persuing a claim for unfair selection for redundancy?


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## Calebs Dad (1 May 2009)

Without know the details or seeing the paperwork, you might have a case


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## Deiseblue (1 May 2009)

Calebs Dad said:


> Without know the details or seeing the paperwork, you might have a case


Are you a member of a union who can advise you ?
If not would you contemplate referring the matter to a solicitor specialising in employment legislation ?


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## csirl (1 May 2009)

I doubt that they can use genuine illness in the attendance category.



> The one person had only been in the job 5 months as compared to my 6 and half years but scored only slightly worse that me for this criteria.


 
Did you ask them the rationale for their scoring off length of service? Was it not inversely proportional?


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## CMK (4 May 2009)

This is very interesting as i was made redundant recently and the selection process was very similar.  (I was 10 years in the department and people less than two years in the department were kept).  However I signed a letter to say i wouldnt dispute it - doing so i got an enhanced redundancy which i would have forfeited if i didnt sign.  

Just wondering did you sign such a letter?


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## jhegarty (4 May 2009)

CMK said:


> This is very interesting as i was made redundant recently and the selection process was very similar.  (I was 10 years in the department and people less than two years in the department were kept).  However I signed a letter to say i wouldnt dispute it - doing so i got an enhanced redundancy which i would have forfeited if i didnt sign.
> 
> Just wondering did you sign such a letter?



You can't sign away your legal rights.


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## vfillafan (5 May 2009)

Thanks for all the advice. No I did not sign anything for enhanced redundancy. I only got the statutory payment.


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## minion (10 May 2009)

Unfortunately i am almost ashamed to say that i have a few friends who have to make staff redundant.  They know exactly who they want to keep based on how many hours they work,if they are gullible enough to accept worse working conditions than others might, how much they are paid etc.

The criteria they would have to use for selection would not be able to get rid of the people they want to get rid of, so they pick criteria that will give them the result they want.  Its unfair but they do it, and they teach each other how do do it and get away with it.

One has hired much cheaper contractors and given them a different job description even though they are doing the same job as the ones he is planning to make redundant too.  Just to save himself in wages and benefits payments.

Another is making some people redundant, but moving people over from another job to do the redundant jobs, but not changing their old job descriptions.

If i told you all the underhand tactics that ive been listening to from them it would turn your stomach.

to be honest i think you have a case.  It really boils my blood to see employers treat their staff like this.


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## vfillafan (12 May 2009)

Thanks Minion, I would like to take this matter further but I am a little uncertain how to do so. Do I need a solicitor to act on my belhalf? If so how much will this cost (as funds are restricted - for obvious reasons!). 

Can I represent myself and if so is there any threads giving guidance?


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## onekeano (12 May 2009)

You can represent yourself and based on your opening description it sounds like the company might have difficulty making that selection criteria stick especially if there were no warnings / reviews of performance etc etc. 

You should contact the Department of Enterprise and Employment http://www.entemp.ie/ who can get you started. You will need to lodge a claim with with Employment Appeals Tribunal and await a hearing. I guess most people will say you should have legal representation but it won't be cheap so it depends on how confident you are and how well you have documented your situation - if you are going this route start off by putting together as detailed chronology of events as possible which will allow an independent party to assess briefly if it would appear to have been an unfair selection.

I'm a manager in a large organisation - if I tried to make a staff member redundant on the basis you have described I would probably be in serious trouble myself with HR.

Best of luck and I hope it works out for you.

Roy


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## vfillafan (13 May 2009)

Thanks a million or all the advice!


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## JoeB (13 May 2009)

minion said:


> One has hired much cheaper contractors and given them a different job description even though they are doing the same job as the ones he is planning to make redundant too.  Just to save himself in wages and benefits payments.
> 
> Another is making some people redundant, but moving people over from another job to do the redundant jobs, but not changing their old job descriptions.



I think the OP has a good case. Get onto the Dept of Trade and Enterprise straight away.. it does seem as if the criteria was made up to get the wanted result.

Minion.. I think your friends may believe they have got away with what they've done.. but it can be clearly seen that they are using devices to make redundant who they want...

Just changing a job description isn't enough.. if the job can be shown to be the same then it is the same regardless of title.. and this could be challenged.

Same thing with moving people into an old supposedly 'redundant' job..  I agree that it may be hard to prove.. but the Dept of Trade and Enterprise will help the employee for free I think... so these employers could easily get found out... the Dept of T&E are quite good as far as I know and aren't in bed with the employers.


I fully understand why an employer would want to get rid of the worse staff first, even if they've been there longer...  (no offence to the OP, it could be a personality thing, or the people selected to remain on may be friends of the employer, or they may not speak up when the employer bullies them for example and he wants to keep his 'doormats')


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## minion (13 May 2009)

JoeBallantin said:


> I think the OP has a good case. Get onto the Dept of Trade and Enterprise straight away.. it does seem as if the criteria was made up to get the wanted result.
> 
> Minion.. I think your friends may believe they have got away with what they've done.. but it can be clearly seen that they are using devices to make redundant who they want...
> 
> ...



They dont seem too bothered to be honest.  Hardly anyone ever calls employers out on this.  They are too scared to rock the boat in case they end up with no job and less redundancy.


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## mtk (26 Sep 2009)

1) yes many emplopyers do use redudancy to get rid of "trouble makers "
I would advice geting legal advice
2) Also regarding signing away legal rights you can do this provided you got independent legal advice ( company usually pays for it) - that's usually how high level severence agreements work.


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## minion (27 Sep 2009)

OP, how did you get on.  I meant to say before that you can go back to the Doctor and ask them for the sick notes for those dates.  They will have records.  If asked why you didnt produce them just say that they werent required at the time by the company.


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## vfillafan (8 Oct 2009)

Hi Minion,

T
Meanwhile still looking for a job without any success.


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## talktohary (9 Oct 2009)

Hi vfillafan,
Just wondering if you can help me out with your experience. I am also in a similar situation.
I was working with a company for almost 6 years.
I started as lab technician in 2003 and promoted to supervisor in 2005 and in 2007 promoted to operations co-ordinator.
On a friday morning in March 2009 HR and the reporting manager called me in to a meeting room and said they are going to make me redundant because the the position I am holding is no more exist. And showed me a statutory amount and ask me to sign a rp50 form. And I finished on that friday. 
They paid me april 2009 salary and statutory money.

Two machine operators and myself let go out of 240 people. More than 140 people joined after me still working with the company.

Company is still running with good profit.When I got internally promoted to oerations co-ordinator company recruited 2 supervisors they are still working. another operions co-ordinator who I trained still working with the company. They said nothing personal with let me go.

Do you mind passing me with the solicitor details who you filed your details with. And any help or information on this matter highly appreciated.


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## vfillafan (13 Oct 2009)

You need to lodge the claim within 6 months of the date of termination of employment so you may have to act fast.You need to get the criteria for your selection for redundancy from the company and see if you believe it was fair. In my case the solicitor said he believed it was scored in such a way as to get the person they wanted redundant. 

Good luck!


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## vfillafan (20 Oct 2009)

Hi Minion,

Thanks for the advice.


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