# allegation of damage to neighbours property



## CELINE (27 Jul 2009)

Hi All,
first time user, long time reader

Long story cut short, 

My father has a rental property.  He recently engaged a builder to add a small extension to his house.  My father knew this builder very well and fully trusts him , given his location from the house he left the builder carry out the work without too many visits so he wasn’t keeping a close eye on the work.
About a month into the build neighbour came in and she claimed the builders were causing damage to her home.  Builder asked how damage was caused she said vibrations from builder’s drills were causing her floor & wall tiles to crack.  He went in to view damage with her.  There were about 4 tiles cracked around the island in her kitchen (which itself is an extension)  Builder at the time noticed the island had a granite/marble counter top and he asked what type of floor structure was put in, she said floating floorboards, he asked if her builder had reinforced the floorboard joists per building regulations to accommodate the excessive weight of a stone counter top on the island above it, she wouldn’t answer.
At the time builder noticed floor had sunk significantly below the skirting boards, which led him to assume the house was suffering from subsidence or the foundations were not built properly, these 2 houses are in the countryside and in a pretty boggy area
My father was away for a holiday has since received number of solicitors letters in his absence (3 or 4 can’t remember) demanding he as principal admits liability and pays the repairs of €8,ooo euro

My father thinks this is extortion/opportunism, the builder has notified his insurance company who have sent an engineer to prepare a report (due back next week)
The neighbour refuses to provide an engineer’s report.

The Builder is adamant that the damage was previously caused, he has even put it in writing that if it was the result of his poor workmanship he would pay repairs but he’s not going to cave into extortion.

Question is should my father engage a solicitor to reply to the letters? Or can anyone advise what the correct process is to follow in this instance


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## Vanilla (27 Jul 2009)

Your father should inform his own insurance company immediately who will respond on his behalf.


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## Ravima (27 Jul 2009)

He must report immediately as insurers are getting stricter in their interpretation of policies. Some will refuse to indemnify if you delay in sending on the initiating letters. If you have received three or four, then you may be in difficulty.

Also read your policy to ensure that you have public liability cover, which covers you whilst there is building work going on.


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## mathepac (27 Jul 2009)

Ravima said:


> ... If you have received three or four, then you may be in difficulty. ...


 OP's Dad was on holiday.


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## CELINE (28 Jul 2009)

Ravima said:


> He must report immediately as insurers are getting stricter in their interpretation of policies. Some will refuse to indemnify if you delay in sending on the initiating letters. If you have received three or four, then you may be in difficulty.
> 
> Also read your policy to ensure that you have public liability cover, which covers you whilst there is building work going on.


 

thanks for response, he rang insurance company immediately who told him that they have noted it but it was up to the neighbour to claim through their insurance who in turn will determine liability and if they felt necessary chase his insurance company for damage.

my worry is neighbour hasnt gone through her insurance company as she is pursuing my father directly through solicitor for cost to repair damages (and exorbitant costs at that)


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## PaddyBloggit (28 Jul 2009)

It might be worth your father's time making an appointment with his own solicitor.

He'll get the best advice there as to how he should/should not respond .... it might be the cheapest option in the long run!


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## mathepac (28 Jul 2009)

CELINE said:


> ... my worry is neighbour hasnt gone through her insurance company ...


Sounds odd. Either she hasn't got insurance or her claim against her own insurance or her  builder has failed.


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## CELINE (28 Jul 2009)

mathepac said:


> Sounds odd. Either she hasn't got insurance or her claim against her own insurance or her builder has failed.


 
Well the professional advice the builder was given by an structural engineer was that if her foundations were sound and if floating floorboards were reinforced correctly and plywood was screwed into floorboards beneath tiles then her floor would be adequatly constructed to absorb any vibrations which may have resulted from building work next door.  this is where the concern lies, perhaps with her insurance claim neighbour does not have a leg to stand on and is now chancing her arm pursuing my father for expenses.


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## bamboozle (28 Jul 2009)

mathepac said:


> Sounds odd. Either she hasn't got insurance or her claim against her own insurance or her builder has failed.


 

Sounds like they're looking to make a quick buck, i'm no solicitor but i'd imagine they would have to make a claim through their insurance company who would then pursue you (as principal) and/or builder (as agent) for liability.

looks like you will have to incur solicitor costs to have a proper response drafted to your neighbour, if it was me i would demand an engineer's report from them plus architect/engineer sign-off of her extension to determine if it was correctly constructed.  From facts above i wouldnt imagine she has much of a case, if any and is chancing her arm


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## onq (28 Jul 2009)

CELINE said:


> <snip>
> Builder asked how damage was caused she said vibrations from builder’s drills were causing her floor & wall tiles to crack.  He went in to view damage with her.  There were about 4 tiles cracked around the island in her kitchen (which itself is an extension)  Builder at the time noticed the island had a granite/marble counter top and he asked what type of floor structure was put in, she said floating floorboards, he asked if her builder had reinforced the floorboard joists per building regulations to accommodate the excessive weight of a stone counter top on the island above it, she wouldn’t answer.
> At the time builder noticed floor had sunk significantly below the skirting boards, which led him to assume the house was suffering from subsidence or the foundations were not built properly, these 2 houses are in the countryside and in a pretty boggy area <snip>



Your description lacks a lot of detail.
Ideally you need a building porfessional to assess not only the structure but all issues arising.
Here are some basic questions and general advice which may be relevant to the matter at hand; -


Do the two extensions share a party wall or is there space between them?
If they share a wall, is your new extension taking support from this wall - roof or slab?
If they share the wall, is there an agreement for both parties to take support from this wall?
If this agreement is in place, was the wall construction - rising wall and foundation - sized to take an additional loading?
A 100mm solid conccrete block wall is substandard construction for dwellings, okay for garden walls up to a certain height if its buttressed properly.
A 215mm hollow or solid concrete block wall on a 675-700mm strip may be an acceptable rule-of-thumb on good ground.
However, a 215mm solid conccrete wall on boggy ground may need specialist design by an engineer.

The correct procedure whether or not you're taking support from a wall is to make contact with your neighbour prior to the building works commencing.
A bullet point shortlist might look like; -


call in to the neighbour before construction commences
identify yourself and your building firm and key personnel
give them a contact number in case of problems
explain your project with drawings
explain your programme dates
agree finished details of the party wall [weathering, render on their side, etc]
suggest they might consider co-ordinating their holidays for the demoliton phase
take some photographs "for record purposes" of their existing extension, inside and out
assess the services situation, for exmaple any shared runs of drainage along the rear gardens
inspect [from your own side] the existing foundation situation of the party wall using a trial hole.
With items 1-7 you've put your best foot forward.
With item 8-10 you limit problems arising due to real construction issues.

Good contractors go through a similar process and you should ask your builder did he do this.
If he didn't inspect and/or take photos of the adjoing extension and establish services, I'd be concerned.
There are health and safety issues amongst other things when you're building right beside an existing extension.
If he didn't agree; -


 finishing details to include top of wall/roof weathering and
 access for rendering any part that projects past the existing extension
 ...then its going to be difficult to finish the work.
Even if he can work overhanded on the former, the latter becomes impossible.
Trusting the builder has little to do with him following correct procedures when its a residential/brownfield site.

ONQ


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## Ravima (28 Jul 2009)

it is NOT up to neighbour to claim from own policy and let the insurers follow up with you. If your policy covers the liability, then the entire case should be given to YOUR insurers who will defend/settle at their option. 

The phone call you have had with them is worthless. You need something in writing. I would suggest writing a letter to insurers enclosing the correspondence; send per registered post and ask in the letter for confirmation that they will handle the case from now on.

There was a legal case last year where an Insurer was critisised for not paying a flood claim to a nightclub but instead told the nightclub to claim against the culpable party. The judge suggested and I agree with him, that the client is paying premium to his insurer who must deal with the claim in the first instance, then if they feel that someone else is to blame, the insurer goes after that person.

You will only be spending your own money getting your own solicitor to advise you as your insurers will have their own panel of solicitors and they will not let the matter in the hands of your solicitor.


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## dereko1969 (28 Jul 2009)

Have you not contradicted yourself there Ravima?
Firstly you state it's not up to neighbour to claim from their own policy then you state the court case where the victim was to claim from their own policy?


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## CELINE (28 Jul 2009)

onq said:


> Your description lacks a lot of detail.
> Ideally you need a building porfessional to assess not only the structure but all issues arising.
> Here are some basic questions and general advice which may be relevant to the matter at hand; -
> 
> ...


the room where her cracked tiles is on the far side of her house, at least 10 metres from the parting wall of the 2 properties
steps 1-7 took place prior to work commencing, builder also took photos of work during each process from our side,


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## CELINE (28 Jul 2009)

Ravima said:


> it is NOT up to neighbour to claim from own policy and let the insurers follow up with you. If your policy covers the liability, then the entire case should be given to YOUR insurers who will defend/settle at their option.
> 
> The phone call you have had with them is worthless. You need something in writing. I would suggest writing a letter to insurers enclosing the correspondence; send per registered post and ask in the letter for confirmation that they will handle the case from now on.
> 
> ...


 
my father's builder advised his insurance company the minute he heard, they had a loss assessor and engineer out, however i do not see how the neighbour should not seek her insurance company to take responsibility


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## Ravima (28 Jul 2009)

Why?

If I crashed my car into yours, would your initial thought be to claim from your own policy or to chase after me?

There is an onus to minimise your loss, but there is no onus for you to claim under your own policy.

If the other party is uninsured what would happen then?


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## peteb (28 Jul 2009)

CELINE said:


> my father's builder advised his insurance company the minute he heard, they had a loss assessor and engineer out, however i do not see how the neighbour should not seek her insurance company to take responsibility


 
Most likely because if the cause of her loss is the defective workmanship of her own builder, she aint going to be covered for anything as insured peril never occured!


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## onq (28 Jul 2009)

CELINE said:


> the room where her cracked tiles is on the far side of her house, at least 10 metres from the parting wall of the 2 properties
> steps 1-7 took place prior to work commencing, builder also took photos of work during each process from our side,



Excellent.

[that's party wall, BTW]

On the face of it then, it appears as though she has no case.

Let us know how you get on.



ONQ


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## mercman (28 Jul 2009)

In the country there are numerous homes, where Insurance is not effected. Basically people do not insure their homes. The neighbour may have been doing work in their own house which might have caused vibrations.This looks like a try on to me.


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## AlbacoreA (29 Jul 2009)

Not willing to provide a engineers report seems strange.


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## CELINE (29 Jul 2009)

Ravima said:


> Why?
> 
> If I crashed my car into yours, would your initial thought be to claim from your own policy or to chase after me?
> 
> ...


 
I see your analogy, however the issue is whether the alleged damage was caused by my fathers builder, this it seems is unlikely yet it looks like my father is going to have to pay a solicitor and incur all this extra work to defend himself from what seems a dubious case.  which gets me thinking if he hires a solicitor who proves the case to be false, can he then pass professional fees onto neighbour?


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## CELINE (29 Jul 2009)

AlbacoreA said:


> Not willing to provide a engineers report seems strange.


 
yes but seeking 8000 for repairs at the same time through her solicitor, i'd love to know how they came up with a figure of 8000 for a few cracked tiles.
during height of boom i retiled my kitchen and bathroom for 1400...


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## bamboozle (29 Jul 2009)

onq said:


> Excellent.
> 
> [that's party wall, BTW]
> 
> ...


 
so let me get this straight;
your fathers house doesnt share a party wall with the neighbours room where her damage occured, was there any damage in her room next to party wall?
neighbour hasnt engaged her insurance company
neighbour hasnt provided an engineers report
all her correspondence is through her solicitor

its sounds like a complete scam if you ask me
its a shame you'll have to engage a solicitor to counter her claims but if it was me i would be demanding them to put up or shut up...ie-provide engineers report, architect/engineer sign-off of their extension works,


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## Ravima (29 Jul 2009)

If his insurers are dealing with the matter, he does NOT have to engage a solicitor. If a solicitor is required, the Insurers will engage one.


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