# commercial rates, and 'temporary mezzanine'



## JoeB (25 Feb 2010)

Hi

I'm looking at renting a commercial property (an industrial warehouse type building), and the estate agent says that rates are not payable on the mezzanine level, as it's temporary.. which seems to mean it wasn't a part of the original building.. although it's very solid now, made with metal supports and a proper floor, and internal divisions upstairs, with offices, a canteen and some small rooms, and a staircase leading up.

Does anyone know if rates are calculated on sq. footage, or what?, and has anyone heard of this 'temporary mezzanine' thing?

Would it be correct to say that rates are nothing to do with the estate agent or the landlord, that rates are an issue between the tenant and the county council?

I see from another thread that tenants are liable for outstanding rates.. any thoughts? (I'm asking the landlord to imdemify me against this.. should I check with the council if rates are outstanding?, even if this tips my hand that I'm moving in)

Is it correct to say that rates are only payable from when the council discover you in the building?, and so would I be best in not contacting the council in order to avoid rates?, or should I just clear it all up from the start..

Any help or advice would be much appreciated.
Cheers 
Joe


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## GreenQueen (25 Feb 2010)

I'm familiar with this.

Rates are not payable on a "temporary" mezzanine. It can't be part of the original construction and it must be able to be removed without damaging the original building.  

Interestingly this also means that when it comes to charging rent psf/psm the mezzanine should be excluded from the rental calculation.

HTH


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## JoeB (26 Feb 2010)

That's great, thanks for that info.

According to the Wicklow Co. Co. website.. (near the bottom)
at 



			
				Wicklow Co. Co said:
			
		

> (The commercial rate)... is payable on all commercial/industrial property based on the annual rate on valuation adopted at the Budget Meeting of the Council and the valuation of the premises as determined by the Commissioner of Valuation. The Council does not have power to set valuations – property is listed for revision to the Valuation Office and property holders are advised of the valuation...



This seems to suggest that Rates are based on property valuations... and surely a mezzanine level would add value to a property? At the same time the Wicklow Co. Co. don't say anything about temporary mezzanines... 

But the estate agent has said the same thing as yourself (Green Queen) so that's ok.

I wonder have Rates come down in line with the fall in property valuations?.. ha ha, I wouldn't expect so, I'd imagine the method of calculating rates would be changed if necessary in order that the Co. Co's wouldn't have to drop rates... I've heard that Wicklow have frozen rates, but no sign of dropping them. I've also heard that you can ask for reductions, which are often given... so I'll do that

Cheers so,


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## GreenQueen (26 Feb 2010)

Before you commit Joe I'd do a quick planning search on the property.  Check if PP has been granted for a temporary or permanent mezz (if at all).  That would also have an impact on rates & rental valuation.  Obviously if it's a permanent structure then you would have to pay for the psf value.

Best of luck.


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## Towger (26 Feb 2010)

Chances are the 'temporary mezzanine' has no planning permission.
You can/should check with local co co what the rates (double check, dont reply on agent!) are and if they are paid up to date. You can get more info on their calculation etc here : http://www.valoff.ie/FAQ.html


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## GreenQueen (26 Feb 2010)

Towger said:


> (double check, dont reply on agent!)



I couldn't agree more. Excellent advice & do not even consider signing a lease until the rates are paid and up to date.


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## JoeB (26 Feb 2010)

Well.. I think I'll have to check the Rates issue, but I was planning  on trying to avoid the Rates, by not letting the council know I've moved in... the landlord agrees that I won't have to pay outstanding rates..but is this worth anything?, I wonder. I'd be signing the lease with an estate agent, who has verbally agreed many things, including imdemfying me against previous Rates.

This planning issue is a toughie.. is planning required for changes to the inside of the unit? Could the landlord be told to remove it?

The property is small by industrial standards.. about 1,400 sq Feet on the ground, and another 1,100 up above.. but it has things I like, like a spray room ready to go,with fans and heaters, and a canteen and offices above, and showroom space.

The rent seems good to me, about 1,000 a month. + VAT. with some sweeteners, like some free time, and equipment in the spray room, and excellent power systems... and a short lease.

The point is that I don't want to be employing solicitors, and checking every last thing.. I may just skip some of this, and hope for the best, and rely on verbal agreements, which I have verification of... I've been five years in my current place, with no written lease at all!!, and it's worked out fine...but I know that may have been lucky enough.

I may just make verbal agreements, backed up by writing.. saying that if the Rates or Planning issue come back to haunt me, that I can then exit the lease with no penalties... most people are honourable, and will stick to their agreements I'd hope.. 

I'll ring the council about the rates, ,and do nothing about the planning.. but mention to the landlord that if there's a problem with the mezzanine, that I can move out with no penalty.

I have just rang about rates, they say they're due for 2010, and are 2,400 per six months!!!, that's a bit much, but the address seems to be wrong, and the girl who deals with Rates isn't in today... so I'll have to wait until Monday to get a final answer.

By the way, the rent has been agreed just by agreeing... no mention of square footage and all that... but it works out about 8.15 + VAT Euros / year per square foot, not including the mezz, and about 4.50 Euros + VAT per sq foot / year if the mezz is included.. not sure if these are good or not, for properties in Wicklow.

Thanks for all the help.


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## Vanilla (26 Feb 2010)

JoeBallantin said:


> The point is that I don't want to be employing solicitors, and checking every last thing.. I may just skip some of this, and hope for the best, and rely on verbal agreements, which I have verification of... I've been five years in my current place, with no written lease at all!!, and it's worked out fine...but I know that may have been lucky enough.


 
Why don't you get a quote from a solicitor to look over your lease for you and to make the appropriate changes at least. There is a big climate change in commercial leases at the moment which puts you firmly in the bargaining position of power. Now is the time to get a solicitor to check this lease for you.


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## GreenQueen (28 Feb 2010)

That seems to be an average "asking" rent according to a quick search on DAFT.

As Vanilla says there is a big change in commercial leases at the moment.  Have you looked into/requested extras such as a rent free period etc?  I would also seriously consider engaging a good solicitor to review the lease.


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## JoeB (28 Feb 2010)

Well, I got a free month, and 18.5% off the asking rent (free month equivilent to an extra 4.1% off over 24 months)... and freebies like some free equipment, and a setup I can use straight away, and a 24 month lease..

Well, I'll read the lease carefully, and will be able to spot awkward clauses myself, and will post here for advice, ha ha, and get it for free!. I have asked about rent reviews, and there won't be any changes to the rent over the lease period.

Sure, I'll see the lease, and go from there...I might take advice if I think I need it..

Thanks for all the help and advice, much appreciated.


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