# Bank refusing to refund fraudulent debit card transactions - thief had pin



## D4B (12 May 2015)

Hi there.

Unfortunately while celebrating our anniversary a couple of weeks ago we were the target for a thief. He followed us and got our hotel key from my husbands pocket and got in to our hotel room and wiped us clean. He went on a shopping trip for himself and for the over of God cannot understand how he had our pin no. The guards assumed he followed us for the day as we used the laser card for shopping and cash withdrawals all that day.

Anyway after filing the claim the bank are now refusing to refund the money as the thief had the pin number. And that it had to have been disclosed in some form. We have no idea how he knew the pin. We don't even live in that county!!!! Devastated here he got almost 1300 from our account.


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## thedaddyman (12 May 2015)

That's often the bank's first and standard response to such issues. Are you absolutely sure that the PIN was not written down anywhere or was not an easily recognizable PIN? eg, 0000 or 9999 or a date of birth?

Secondly, did you report it straight away once you know the card was missing or did you wait a period of time before reporting it?

Lastly you say it was a Laser card, I presume you mean a Visa Debit card


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## Brendan Burgess (12 May 2015)

It's very tough, but you can see it from the bank's point of view. He had the pin. They can't refund you those transactions.


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## D4B (12 May 2015)

I understand, but when it is absolutley legitimate I am so upset over it.  We reported the cards missing straight away, within 10 mins of realising that our wallets were gone we were on the phone.  And yes I mean Laser debit card sorry.

Is there any point in going any further about it, or do I dispute do you think?

Thanks for your replies x


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## thedaddyman (12 May 2015)

Absolutely dispute it, you have nothing to lose. 

The bank has to prove you were negligent.

the attached may help as well.


Make sure you raise you complaint in writing.


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## D4B (12 May 2015)

Sorry I meant Debit card.

It was Permanent TSB

The thief went to the shopping centre across the road from the hotel so I guess we were near enough  We were in the swimming pool while he did it  

The Garda have footage of him in the hotel and also in the pharmacy where he went to make transactions.

I am trying to write up a dispute letter here, but trying to word it correct is a nightmare


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## emeralds (12 May 2015)

Was your pin number easy to guess?


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## Sol28 (12 May 2015)

The only way i got my money back when my card was skimmed and used in England was to report the bank to the Financial Regulator.

Then 'as a sign of goodwill' they refunded my money.


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## Sunny (12 May 2015)

Did you use the card and pin anywhere in the hotel?  Is it possible the person who took it is a staff member?


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## Brendan Burgess (12 May 2015)

thedaddyman said:


> Are you absolutely sure that the PIN was not written down anywhere or was not an easily recognizable PIN? eg, 0000 or 9999 or a date of birth?





emeralds said:


> Was your pin number easy to guess?



Could you answer these questions please?


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## postman pat (12 May 2015)

Hi D4B
           Sorry to hear of your incident,but the banks will try to wiggle out of paying you back any way they can, keep on going though,Im surprised at some of the comments you got here,maybe they work for the banks.

Pat


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## dereko1969 (12 May 2015)

My mother failed to get any money back when something similar happened to her. She was seen entering her number on the card machine in Lidl and then her wallet was stolen and the card used. The way the card machines in supermarkets are placed it's tricky enough to hide the keypad from onlookers.


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## Guns N Roses (12 May 2015)

Brendan Burgess said:


> It's very tough, but you can see it from the bank's point of view. He had the pin. They can't refund you those transactions.



I would agree with Brendan on this issue. Banks will only refund customers if their security systems have been breached. In this case, the thief somehow obtained your PIN number and removed money from your account. I can't see how this is the Banks fault?

I would be very surprised if your Bank reinburses your loss.


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## mathepac (12 May 2015)

Of course the bank is at fault. They want rid of cash handling costs, they want rid of face-to-face customers, they want automated transactions and processes. That being the case, let them invest in systems that protect their customers from loss. The banks are the ones driving change here so they have the responsibility to make client money safe.

Simple things like the real-time detection and flagging of unusual patterns of spending or cash withdrawals with the banks'  security department are easily implemented. Biometric testing of the card-holder / customer at terminals is now affordable (lap-tops from IBM/Lenovo have had this feature for years, new model iPhones have it now) via finger-print or eye-scan is a must. There is a drive for contactless payment systems with *NO PIN* required - who owns responsibility for security on these systems?

Chip n pin was heralded as the greatest security invention since the lock and key yet it is simple to circumvent. Shoulder surfing or hacking ATM terminals to install video cameras or skimming devices are now common-place activities yet the banks refuse to accept that they are the simplest means of stealing money and won't approach Siemens-Nixdorf or other suppliers to improve security at cash-machine or terminal lobbies.

The banks want profits to increase - IMO they cannot do this by simply removing costs and doing a Pontius Pilate when "security systems" fail or were never there to begin with.

Do not lie down or be bullied by these organisations, fight them; they are in the wrong.


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## mathepac (12 May 2015)

I meant to add that when Ulster Bank farmed out their IT systems to some Mickey Mouse off-shore company in the interests of saving on costs, that company couldn't test or manage the implementation a software change, so there was chaos for Ulster bank customers and their customers / employees in turn. Who will hold the banks to account for their consistent failures in security, IT implementation, lack of honesty and mis-management? The customer pays for the services, pays again when the banks fail and yet again pays because the only security they supply is to their boards of directors. Even their share-holders get shafted.


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## D4B (12 May 2015)

Brendan I am 100% sure my pin was not written down anywhere. I have the same pin with 12 years and it is not an easy one to guess either. I understand that this is not the banks fault but it's a fraudulent case, is it not?

I am not holding hope we will get reimbursed.   I called the financial ombudsman and they unfortunately said that because it is fraud they cannot get involved. It's a matter for the garda. .....


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## D4B (12 May 2015)

H


Sunny said:


> Did you use the card and pin anywhere in the hotel?  Is it possible the person who took it is a staff member?



Sunny we paid when we got to the hotel. They have the thief on cctv but he is not known to the garda or the hotel unfortunately.  Needle in a haystack!


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## thedaddyman (12 May 2015)

D4B said:


> Brendan I am 100% sure my pin was not written down anywhere. I have the same pin with 12 years and it is not an easy one to guess either. I understand that this is not the banks fault but it's a fraudulent case, is it not?
> 
> I am not holding hope we will get reimbursed.   I called the financial ombudsman and they unfortunately said that because it is fraud they cannot get involved. It's a matter for the garda. .....



The Ombudsman will only get involved once the bank's complaints process has been exhausted and I'm not sure if they deal with frauds. You should ask the bank for a copy of their complaints procedures and then respond and state the facts. You should ask the bank to outline how they believe you were at fault. You need to kick up a stink but do so without getting emotive or complaining about some of the issues some other posters have raised on here. Those issues are irrelevant to the problem in hand and you will look like a crank.

*Put everything in writing.*  You should also state how disappointed you are as a long standing customer etc etc and if you have any investments or savings with the bank, you should also threaten to take your entire business away from them

You need to go to war with the bank here.


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## Guns N Roses (12 May 2015)

mathepac said:


> Of course the bank is at fault. They want rid of cash handling costs, they want rid of face-to-face customers, they want automated transactions and processes. That being the case, let them invest in systems that protect their customers from loss. The banks are the ones driving change here so they have the responsibility to make client money safe.
> 
> Simple things like the real-time detection and flagging of unusual patterns of spending or cash withdrawals with the banks'  security department are easily implemented. Biometric testing of the card-holder / customer at terminals is now affordable (lap-tops from IBM/Lenovo have had this feature for years, new model iPhones have it now) via finger-print or eye-scan is a must. There is a drive for contactless payment systems with *NO PIN* required - who owns responsibility for security on these systems?
> 
> ...



Mathepac, I would generally agree with all of your points above however they are irrelevant in this case. The Bank provided a security system which the OP negated by leaving their cards unattended and allowing their PIN number to be discovered by a third party.

If I leave my car keys unattended and my car is stolen. I don't go back to the car manufacturer demanding the value of my car back. I go to the police as it is a criminal matter and not the fault of the car manufacturer as I was negligent.

As much as we would like to, we can't blame the Banks for all the woes in this country.


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## Sol28 (12 May 2015)

thedaddyman said:


> The Ombudsman will only get involved once the bank's complaints process has been exhausted and I'm not sure if they deal with frauds. You should ask the bank for a copy of their complaints procedures and then respond and state the facts.



That's exactly what I did before I went to the ombudsman. Followed up with the ombudsman after i went through all the complaints process with the Bank.


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## mathepac (12 May 2015)

Guns N Roses said:


> ... however they are irrelevant in this case. The Bank provided a security system which the OP negated by leaving their cards unattended and allowing their PIN number to be discovered by a third party. ...


I'd like to hear how you reached the "irrelevant" conclusion, unless it's by not reading or understanding posts fully.

OP stated that she left the card(s) in a locked hotel room and nowhere is there a statement that she compromised security by writing the PIN anywhere; to the contrary she states she did NOT write down the PIN and that the card was only used to pay the hotel, so shoulder surfing or a fraudulent card-reader in the hotel are the possible causes of a 3rd party gaining access to the PIN. This is because as I already stated chip n pin is inherently unsafe and non-secure. Access to the hotel room was gained by theft, i.e. pick-pocketing the hotel room key from her husband's jacket so in the grand scheme of things, the bank and yourself must believe the OP was complicit in this crime too. I'd also question the effectiveness of hotel security as they allowed multiple crimes to be committed on their property against one of the guests.



Guns N Roses said:


> ... If I leave my car keys unattended and my car is stolen. I don't go back to the car manufacturer demanding the value of my car back. I go to the police as it is a criminal matter and not the fault of the car manufacturer as I was negligent. ...


The situation you describe is not analogous with OP's. An analogy would be if you used your electronic key-fob to lock your car and thieves intercepted and decoded the signal on a mobile-phone and stole your car  using this intercepted data, then I guess you'd be screaming down the phone at the dealer (not at the manufacturer as you have no contract with the manufacturer) to get your car back or a replacement.

So there you have it, bank customer blameless, bank and hotel both culpable in my view and the case against the bank in particular is water-tight, despite all the wriggling they might try.


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## Brendan Burgess (12 May 2015)

D4B said:


> I called the financial ombudsman and they unfortunately said that because it is fraud they cannot get involved. It's a matter for the garda. .....



That is very interesting and I think that you could challenge it. I have started a separate thread on it here: 

*Ombudsman refusing to hear case where fraud is involved*


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## BazzaDP (12 May 2015)

I like chip and pin. I like being able to bank on my own time I like automated transactions. So it's not just the bank's driving this. Some of us customers want this too.

We've no idea how the pin was discovered but, unless it was due to inadequate security by the bank, you can't really hold them accountable by default. Saying the bank is liable for shoulder surfing is laughable.

If I withdraw cash and get mugged is that the bank's fault too for not providing security along with the cash?

OP keep raising it with the bank in a reasonable manner as others with saner heads have advised and there's a good (but not definite) chance they will refund as a goodwill gesture. Especially as you seem to already have evidence it was fraud.


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## D4B (12 May 2015)

Thank you all for your replies. I qas clueless as to what to do or where to go next. I am writing up an email here now to email to the customer relations.  will keep you updated.


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## Brendan Burgess (12 May 2015)

Hi D4B

There is no hurry with your complaint. Reflect on it a bit more.

I think you should make it more formal - in writing rather than by email.

I think you should check out the cases on the Ombudsman website to see if you can learn anything from them.

Maybe even check out the UK Ombudsman website.

Maybe the Irish Banking and Payments Services group has a policy on it. Maybe even BoI has a policy on it.

For example, if the pattern of transactions was unusual, the bank's fraud detection system should have stopped some of the transactions.

Do a bit more research and then make your submission. 

I am not convinced that the FSO has no role here if BoI rejects your complaint.  So bear in mind that you should be making a very comprehensive submission which could be the basis of your submission to the FSO as well. 

Also wait a while to see if the Gardaí come up with anything.

Brendan


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## mathepac (12 May 2015)

BazzaDP said:


> I like chip and pin. I like being able to bank on my own time I like automated transactions. So it's not just the bank's driving this. Some of us customers want this too. ...


It has its benefits and attractions no doubt, but I know I didn't write to any of my banks saying "I want chip n pin and I want it NOW and I accept that the product is grossly inadequate from a security perspective and I accept all the risks and if I'm a pauper because of your plastic card, I will hold you blameless."

Chip n pin was launched on the unsuspecting public on the heels of a massive advertising campaign which sold it as the greatest thing since sliced pan. No-one asked for it, demand was created by advertising. There are few if any real benefits for the user (other than doing for free work that bank tellers used to get paid for) but a massive payoff for the banks in moving business away from bricks and mortar branches.


BazzaDP said:


> ... We've no idea how the pin was discovered but, unless it was due to inadequate security by the bank, you can't really hold them accountable by default. Saying the bank is liable for shoulder surfing is laughable. ...


The fact that the PIN was discovered despite the customer not writing it down or giving it to anyone is all the evidence you need that chip n pin is inherently insecure, therefore they are accountable

The customer was not negligent but had funds stolen because both the hotel and bank security measures *combined* failed to protect them from theft. A series of crimes, with evidence in support of them being perpetrated against the hotel guest & bank customer,  resulted in the OP losing money. It is insane that the bank would think they can just wipe their hands and say  it was the customer's fault and not their's.

I'm not sure who said shoulder surfing was the bank's liability, but the activity drives a coach and horses through the "security" of chip n pin card operations.


BazzaDP said:


> ... If I withdraw cash and get mugged is that the bank's fault too for not providing security along with the cash? ...


I have no idea. Maybe you need to start a new thread to get an answer.


BazzaDP said:


> ... OP keep raising it with the bank in a reasonable manner as others with saner heads have advised and there's a good (but not definite) chance they will refund as a goodwill gesture. Especially as you seem to already have evidence it was fraud.


I'm not sure who the saner heads are meant to belong to, but if the OP has the evidence that fraud was committed, then the bank has no need to make a "goodwill gesture" - they pay out on the basis that the customer was blameless and defrauded of funds due to a series of crimes and the bank's inadequate security on chip n pin cards.


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## mathepac (13 May 2015)

Here is one of the [broken link removed] perpetrated against a bank customer in Roscommon. No doubt the customer is at fault here too.


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## D4B (13 May 2015)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Hi D4B
> 
> There is no hurry with your complaint. Reflect on it a bit more.
> 
> ...



Thanks Brendan. The bank is PTSB.  A friend of mine told me this evening that her friend had 1200 taken from her acc at Xmas whilst on a night out. Perp again gained access to her pIn. It took 8 weeks and a lot of persistentence but she got her money from bank. She told them the garda had footage of him using her card etc.  The Guard dealing with our case is off until Thursday so I will touch base with him then.  

I will indeed send a letter rather than email. I just want to make sure I make sense and word it correctly. I am useless at these kind of things and know nothing about it.

The hotel have refunded our stay and gave us a cheque for 500 to put towards the cost of jewellery taken. Though there was no staff in the leisure centre.  The thief found our room no from the sign in sheet


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## D4B (13 May 2015)

mathepac said:


> It has its benefits and attractions no doubt, but I know I didn't write to any of my banks saying "I want chip n pin and I want it NOW and I accept that the product is grossly inadequate from a security perspective and I accept all the risks and if I'm a pauper because of your plastic card, I will hold you blameless."
> 
> Chip n pin was launched on the unsuspecting public on the heels of a massive advertising campaign which sold it as the greatest thing since sliced pan. No-one asked for it, demand was created by advertising. There are few if any real benefits for the user (other than doing for free work that bank tellers used to get paid for) but a massive payoff for the banks in moving business away from bricks and mortar branches.
> The fact that the PIN was discovered despite the customer not writing it down or giving it to anyone is all the evidence you need that chip n pin is inherently insecure, therefore they are accountable
> ...




Thanks for your reply mathepac. You have highlighted some great points which help make it all a lot more sense to me .you guys are so helpful x


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## Brendan Burgess (13 May 2015)

Hi D4B

Check out the Ombudsman's guide to making a complaint to your financial services provider: 

[broken link removed]

Brendan


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## STEINER (13 May 2015)

While I have nothing much to help specifically with your problem, you raise some issues re hotels.

I stay in various hotels up and down the country for leisure, weddings, w/e breaks etc.  Last month there was no safe in the 4 star hotel room and no locks on the leisure centre changing lockers, and yes the sign in sheet was there for anyone to look at with room numbers etc. So, what happened to you could have happened to me.


D4B said:


> The hotel have refunded our stay and gave us a cheque for 500 to put towards the cost of jewellery taken. Though there was no staff in the leisure centre.  The thief found our room no from the sign in sheet



Anyone can break into a hotel room and steal.

You say you reported the theft to bank within 10 minutes.  Did the fraudulent transactions occur after you reported to bank?


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## D4B (13 May 2015)

STEINER said:


> While I have nothing much to help specifically with your problem, you raise some issues re hotels.
> 
> I stay in various hotels up and down the country for leisure, weddings, w/e breaks etc.  Last month there was no safe in the 4 star hotel room and no locks on the leisure centre changing lockers, and yes the sign in sheet was there for anyone to look at with room numbers etc. So, what happened to you could have happened to me.
> 
> ...



No the transactions were made prior. By the time We got out of pool and up to our room he had been and gone straight across the road to the shopping ctr


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## Gerry Canning (14 May 2015)

D4B.

1. You were robbed,
2. You did not disclose or have your PIN number written down.
.......................................
Keep after PTSB on this case .

My daughter got her purse lifted, 3 times the thief tried to use it in an ATM.
What police told her was thief watched her withdraw funds from ATM , thief had a good idea of guessing on her numbers and tried card. Luckily thief didn,t guess the 4 numbers.
........................
I just cannot see how Bank can not refund.


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## BazzaDP (14 May 2015)

I agree they were robbed. And I am sympathetic to that. But I'm struggling to see why this is the bank's fault and therefore why they should pay the money back? That would mean either the bank would lose out instead of the customer, or the shop keeper if the bank refused to pay them (though not sure how they could do this if PIN was used?). Either is obviously better for the OP but that doesn't mean that's what will or even should happen.

Unless the bank was negligent (i.e. gave out the money with no PIN or with incorrect PIN, or had a weakness in their PINs or procedures, or accepted a large payment from the same card from two different sides of the world within seconds of each other, or allowed a card skimmer to be attached to their ATM...etc.) then this is an unfortunate incident but not sure they are liable unless there's some specific consumer protection for card fraud that I'm not aware of? It works differently with Credit Cards as the credit card company is jointly liable for any fraud - but you pay for that protection in higher fees and interest charges.

I do not agree that PINs are inherently insecure. I think scrawling your name in a vaguely identical manner to the signature any thief has a copy of, on the back of a card they've snatched is much more insecure. But maybe that's just me.

Saying all that I think the bank will most likely pay out as a gesture of good will. Best of luck OP and hope for your sake they do.


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## D4B (21 May 2015)

Hi everyone.

Just to keep you updated. We have been back and forth with the bank. The guards told us they never looked in to our case with them so we have also argued that with them. It's a garda investigation and they should have been contacted in relation to the transactions.  

The bank phoned me today to tell me that they are sending documents out for us to get signed by the gardai. I told them we don't live in Galway but they said that's fine any garda station will suffice.

Not sure if this is a step in the right direction or not.  


Can I also ask you- we have yet to lodge the 'goodwill gesture' cheque of 500 from the hotel. They had originally told us they would cover the cost of our jewellery. Then they told us that they wouldn't but they would give us something. The gave us less that half.  Do you think we should accept gracefully? /


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## elcato (21 May 2015)

Doed your house insurance cover the cost of any jewelery theft outside the home ? Worth checking.


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## D4B (21 May 2015)

Elcato

Unfortunately the items that are covered were not taken. Just our luck  needless to say we have changed our insurance now.


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## browtal (23 May 2015)

D4B said:


> Brendan I am 100% sure my pin was not written down anywhere. I have the same pin with 12 years and it is not an easy one to guess either. I understand that this is not the banks fault but it's a fraudulent case, is it not?
> 
> I am not holding hope we will get reimbursed.   I called the financial ombudsman and they unfortunately said that because it is fraud they cannot get involved. It's a matter for the garda. .....



I had a friend who was followed and subsequently her card was stolen. They two involved then withdrew considerable amount of money from her account.
Following much writing and phoning she sent details to the Ombudsman who acted on her behalf and she got full refund, after many months.
Browtal


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## D4B (22 Jun 2015)

T


browtal said:


> I had a friend who was followed and subsequently her card was stolen. They two involved then withdrew considerable amount of money from her account.
> Following much writing and phoning she sent details to the Ombudsman who acted on her behalf and she got full refund, after many months.
> Browtal



Thank you Browtal, after an appeal with the bank jsut today we recieved another refusal letter so I am going to try the Ombudsman again


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## jim (23 Jun 2015)

As much as I dislike banks common sense suggests to me that the bank should not have to pay for ones negligEnce. Why does the bank need to refund you they haven't done anything wrong.

Also what is stopping anybody from walking into their bank and claiming that someone had obtained their pin and extracted 100k from their a/c? And then reuesting the bank pays you,in effect, that 100k. Makes no sense to me.  

The only two things that could have happened here is you are fraudulently claiming that your pin and card was stolen. Or it was in fCt stolen in which case you were negligent.


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## Bronte (24 Jun 2015)

jim said:


> As much as I dislike banks common sense suggests to me that the bank should not have to pay for ones negligEnce. Why does the bank need to refund you they haven't done anything wrong.
> 
> Also what is stopping anybody from walking into their bank and claiming that someone had obtained their pin and extracted 100k from their a/c? And then reuesting the bank pays you,in effect, that 100k. Makes no sense to me.
> 
> The only two things that could have happened here is you are fraudulently claiming that your pin and card was stolen. Or it was in fCt stolen in which case you were negligent.


 

This is way harsh. She left her card in the hotel room, she did not disclose her pin no, she couldn't take the card swimming, she locked her room, she was as secure as if she were at home.  She reported the lost card immediately.  In circumstances like this, where thieves are able to get pins she should be refunded.  She is not scamming and did nothing wrong, she was not negligent.  She did it by the book.  Banks have to take these things on the chin.  She will win but she has to be *persistant*, that is the message from all the other posters on here.


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## thedaddyman (24 Jun 2015)

jim said:


> As much as I dislike banks common sense suggests to me that the bank should not have to pay for ones negligEnce. Why does the bank need to refund you they haven't done anything wrong.
> 
> Also what is stopping anybody from walking into their bank and claiming that someone had obtained their pin and extracted 100k from their a/c? And then reuesting the bank pays you,in effect, that 100k. Makes no sense to me.
> 
> The only two things that could have happened here is you are fraudulently claiming that your pin and card was stolen. Or it was in fCt stolen in which case you were negligent.



There are actually plenty of other ways to get PIN numbers. They include shoulder surfing, (looking over someones shoulder at an ATM or POS), staff in a shop keeping a close eye on it or a camera fitted on an ATM or overlooking a POS terminal. In addition, cards can easily be cloned.


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## mathepac (24 Jun 2015)

jim said:


> As much as I dislike banks common sense suggests to me that the bank should not have to pay for ones negligEnce. Why does the bank need to refund you they haven't done anything wrong.
> 
> Also what is stopping anybody from walking into their bank and claiming that someone had obtained their pin and extracted 100k from their a/c? And then reuesting the bank pays you,in effect, that 100k. Makes no sense to me.
> 
> The only two things that could have happened here is you are fraudulently claiming that your pin and card was stolen. Or it was in fCt stolen in which case you were negligent.


Nonsense. Using that logic, the victim of a well-planned series of crimes was negligent.


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## jim (6 Jul 2015)

mathepac said:


> Nonsense. Using that logic, the victim of a well-planned series of crimes was negligent.



alleged victim. you are completely missing my point. all i am saying is that anybody can claim what the OP has claimed whether or not it has actually happened. in the OP's case I am sure they are an honest person and are genuinely the victim of a crime here!! but what is stopping a fraudster doing this i.e claiming what the OP has claimed.


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## D4B (10 Jul 2015)

Just to keep you updated we finally got a call from the bank today and they have agreed as a 'good will ' gesture to refund us our money.  We appealed the case twice and after being in touch with the gardai they agreed to refund us.


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## mathepac (11 Jul 2015)

@D4B great news. The bank had no grounds to refuse you as I said earlier. Well done for your persistence in the face of pig-headedness by the bank. They cannot afford to admit they were at fault but accept their "good will" gesture as an admission that security on these cards is very poor.


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## theresa1 (11 Jul 2015)

Well done D4B. PTSB wrongly charged me €2.50 Government Stamp Duty on my visa card when I had not used it once at any ATM all year. It took me 3 e-mails and I think 3 phone calls to finally get it credited to my a/c.

As a Country we just don't do Customer Service - never have and probably never will.


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## trojan (11 Jul 2015)

theresa1 said:


> Well done D4B. PTSB wrongly charged me €2.50 Government Stamp Duty on my visa card when I had not used it once at any ATM all year. It took me 3 e-mails and I think 3 phone calls to finally get it credited to my a/c.
> 
> As a Country we just don't do Customer Service - never have and probably never will.


Delighted to hear he good news.  Have you any idea why the change by the banks attitude?


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## Sol28 (13 Jul 2015)

D4B said:


> Just to keep you updated we finally got a call from the bank today and they have agreed as a 'good will ' gesture to refund us our money.  We appealed the case twice and after being in touch with the gardai they agreed to refund us.



I had the same 'Good Will' gesture done - but only after reporting them to the Regulator - Good will was hardly a factor in it!


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## D4B (13 Jul 2015)

Thank you all. I also sent a letter stating that I would seek legal advice. Not sure if that helped


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## Nicola (27 Aug 2015)

D4B said:


> Thank you all. I also sent a letter stating that I would seek legal advice. Not sure if that helped


Hi D4B, Can I please ask you what bank you were dealing with? Also did you say that you were shoulder surfed?I am having a issue with this at the moment and finding things very hard. thanks for your help.


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## Leo (3 Sep 2015)

Nicola said:


> Hi D4B, Can I please ask you what bank you were dealing with? Also did you say that you were shoulder surfed?I am having a issue with this at the moment and finding things very hard. thanks for your help.



It's mentioned a number of times in the thread already.


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## Leo (3 Sep 2015)

One other thing to note, chip & PIN was introduced to protect the banks, not the consumer. Great money spinner for the banks too with customers that don't qualify for free transactions, they get a charge per transaction rather than one per ATM withdrawal that covers multiple transactions.

Check the terms and conditions you agreed to in relation to the card also, no doubt you agreed to bear any costs associated with fraud where the PIN was known to the perpetrator. PTSB clearly state this on their policy. So any refunds the banks are currently making are good-will gestures, as they're trying to wean us off our dependency on cash.

For contact-less payments referred to above, the banks will indemnify you if the card is stolen. Losses there will be limited anyway as generally only three contact-less payments of €15 or less are permitted in a row before the PIN will be requested.


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