# Damn those Penalty Points!



## Iceman732 (9 May 2008)

Has anyone ever seen an unmarked 1996-1998 Hiace Garda van taking speeds? I was coming in the N3 today and about 100-200 meters after you come down to 80 km from 100 km on the Blanchardstown bypass there was the aforementioned van! Is this an unmarked Garda van?

Firstly I'm not sure where he would have been taking the speeds, before the 80k speed limit or just inside it? I was just letting the car slow down naturally from 100k to 80k and it's unlikely that I was below the speed limit if he was taking the speed inside the 80k limit. 

Assuming that I was caught.... How long do the Gardai have to inform me? (I.e. send out the €80 demand thing) The points won't arrive in my name so it'll have to be sent back. I was wondering if first of all we sent back the demand requesting the form in Irish, then send it back stating that X was not the driver and that Y actually was. Then when the form comes out to Y request the form in either English or Irish, whichever language differs to the form they originally send to Y Would the amount of time they have to inform me have passed? 

Anyone have other ideas?

I already have two points and I can't afford anymore! Also, are points carried over from a provisional license to a full license? 

Finally, are laser diffusers legal?


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## ClubMan (9 May 2008)

Iceman732 said:


> I already have two points and I can't afford anymore!


No problem - just adhere to the rules of the road and speed limits so.


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## rob30 (9 May 2008)

I know how you feel, it got 2 points 5 years ago for doing 34 in a 30 stretch on the navan road, and it took them 4 months to let me know. It can be very frustrating, and you really have to wonder about the merits of nabbing people for being a tad over in the transition from 100 to 80, esp on a dual carriageway. 
I have seen people being pulled over, when accelerating up to 100kph, outside town, within metres of the 100kph sign. It does smack of opportunism, not the intended accident prevention. 
It is easier just to take it on the chin, rather than fight the bitter and self defeating battle you will face. After all, the bare facts are that you were speeding afterall.


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## efm (9 May 2008)

Iceman732 said:


> Has anyone ever seen an unmarked 1996-1998 Hiace Garda van taking speeds?


 
Don't think so - all the Garda GATSO vans I've seen and read about have been late model Ford Transits - I don't think a Hiace would be big enough to comfortably take the GATSO rig and still allow easy entry and egress for our friends in the Plod


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## becky (9 May 2008)

I heard on Gerry Ryan show years ago that they paint the vans with different comapny logos and move them around.


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## DrMoriarty (9 May 2008)

Iceman732 said:


> I was wondering if first of all we sent back the demand requesting the form in Irish, then send it back stating that X was not the driver and that Y actually was. Then when the form comes out to Y request the form in either English or Irish, whichever language differs to the form they originally send to Y Would the amount of time they have to inform me have passed?




Count yourself lucky you weren't in Utah.


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## jhegarty (9 May 2008)

Iceman732 said:


> Assuming that I was caught.... How long do the Gardai have to inform me? (I.e. send out the €80 demand thing) The points won't arrive in my name so it'll have to be sent back. I was wondering if first of all we sent back the demand requesting the form in Irish, then send it back stating that X was not the driver and that Y actually was. Then when the form comes out to Y request the form in either English or Irish, whichever language differs to the form they originally send to Y Would the amount of time they have to inform me have passed?



According to the Indo earlier this week 2/3 of cases are thrown out because people say they never go the letter .... (i am of course assume you won't get the letter and would never advise you to purger yourself)....


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## bullbars (9 May 2008)

I hate when those Gardai apply the rules of the road or any other laws for that matter. I remember trying to get money from this shop once an they had all sorts of objections to what I was at.No guns allowed, take the balaclava off, hands in the air etc. So angry about the whole thing I'll nearly stop doing it.


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## FredBloggs (9 May 2008)

If only this were true!


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## aircobra19 (9 May 2008)

ClubMan said:


> No problem - just adhere to the rules of the road and speed limits so.



Thats a very glib reply. 

Theres a lack of common sense to the application of both, that is frequently unreasonable.


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## eamonn123456 (9 May 2008)

So let me get this scenario straight:  

someone who is unqualified to drive gets caught speeding and wants to know how to get out of it?

My advice is to ignore all tickets etc until you get summonsed to court. 

At least this way you will have a fair hearing and a chance to explain why it is only right that you should be immune to the law of the land and the highway code.

There's not a judge in the country who would convict .


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## ajapale (9 May 2008)

Moved from Askaboutlaw to Cars/Motoring. Please post in the correct section.

*Askaboutlaw* 
 			For legal issues not covered in another forum. Ask about conveyancing in Mortgages forum. Ask about road traffic law in Cars & Motoring. Ask about tenant issues in Property Investment.


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## DavyJones (9 May 2008)

Gardai are like beautiful women, the sun gets them out, everyday for the last five days they seem to be out in force on the roads. Thats probably the only good thing about the rain, it means the lads don't leave the station.
And to the OP, get the point not the points, you do the crime and all that jazz!


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## eamonn123456 (9 May 2008)

Iceman732 said:


> Well eamonn123456 you didn't get it straight... I was asking if a person on a PROVISIONAL license who gets two penalty points and then passes the driving test and therefor gets a full license..... Are the points carried over? I assume they are but I'd just like to make sure!!


 
My mistake - I had no idea you were such a skilful driver.

In that case I guess you are considering blaming your misdemeanour on someone with a provisional licence? 

I don't think this is really the best place to get advice on breaking the law, and if you must show off about your boy-racing attitude as per your latest post, don't expect kudos from most adults, whether they be of pension age or otherwise.


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## television (9 May 2008)

aggree completely with clubman and eamon. if you put other lives at risk by speeding you deserve what you get. if you are going 3 miles over the limit you are still breaking the law and you are dangerous to others.


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## DavyJones (9 May 2008)

television said:


> aggree completely with clubman and eamon. if you put other lives at risk by speeding you deserve what you get. if you are going 3 miles over the limit you are still breaking the law and you are dangerous to others.


 
In that logic, every driver in the world is a danger to others. Are you saying you have never went over the limit? If what the OP says is true, I.E slowly from 100kpm to 80kpm in an 80, then give the guy a break. Let ye who have never sinned, cast the first stone.


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## television (9 May 2008)

yes you are a greater danger to others if you go over the speed limit and if you say everyone does at some point then well they are a danger to others at the point you are driving over te limit yes. 
If i have ever went over the limit i would accept it and not complain at the police doing thier job. 
if you or me are careless enough to go over the limit take it on the chin and move on not complain about how unfair the cops are. 
do you reaslise that there is a significant difference in the damage you can do to a person if you hit them at 33 miles an hour as compared to 30 and if that is a child it could mean the difference between life and death. 
dont think about that if you never think it is going to happen to you or your kids.


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## television (9 May 2008)

and i have been driving for 15 years and have no points.


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## ClubMan (9 May 2008)

aircobra19 said:


> Thats a very glib reply.


Glibly correct though.


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## ClubMan (9 May 2008)

bullbars said:


> I hate when those Gardai apply the rules of the road or any other laws for that matter. I remember trying to get money from this shop once an they had all sorts of objections to what I was at.No guns allowed, take the balaclava off, hands in the air etc. So angry about the whole thing I'll nearly stop doing it.


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## DavyJones (9 May 2008)

I too have no points and probably go over the limit atleast once a day. If the limits 100kpm I'll go to 110kpm where I can. I am far from a "boy racer" so don't drive at excessive speeds. If you have never went over any speed limit then your probably in a very small group. safe motoring.


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## Peeete (9 May 2008)

DavyJones said:


> I too have no points and probably go over the limit atleast once a day. If the limits 100kpm I'll go to 110kpm where I can. I am far from a "boy racer" so don't drive at excessive speeds. If you have never went over any speed limit then your probably in a very small group. safe motoring.



Davy - i'd say you'll get hammered on that statement. I would be in the same boat as you and assess the conditions around. If everyone travelled at what they thought was 100kpm in such a zone, not all cars would even be travelling at exactly the same speed, due to tachometer calibration errors.


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## ClubMan (9 May 2008)

Peeete said:


> If everyone travelled at what they thought was 100kpm in such a zone, not all cars would even be travelling at exactly the same speed, due to tachometer calibration errors.


Perhaps that's why they are speed *limits *- not speed *targets *as some people seem to assume.


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## Peeete (9 May 2008)

ClubMan said:


> Perhaps that's why they are speed *limits *- not speed *targets *as some people seem to assume.



That doesn't make sense Clubman. If enforecment was that strict then people who believed they were upholding the law could be slightly over (and receive points, etc). This has nothing to do with targets - Are you suggesting people should drive below speed limits just incase?


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## ClubMan (9 May 2008)

Peeete said:


> Are you suggesting people should drive below speed limits just incase?


Seems a logical way to abide by the law especially if, as you suggest, speedometers may not always be 100% accurate. Anyway the law requires that motorists drive at or below the relevant speed limit so obviously any law abiding and responsible motorist will do this.


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## jhegarty (9 May 2008)

ClubMan said:


> Perhaps that's why they are speed *limits *- not speed *targets *as some people seem to assume.



But you can fail your driving test for not driving up to the speed limit... so the driving test says they are targets...


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## kkman (9 May 2008)

jhegarty said:


> But you can fail your driving test for not driving up to the speed limit... so the driving test says they are targets...


I failed my test first time for driving too slow. I was doing 20 in a 30 so was penalised for holding up traffic..... my instructor told me that i should always drive at the speed limit, even slightly over would not do any harm...


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## rsob (10 May 2008)

I'm driving 15 years - I got one speeding ticket (not in Ireland- 300 euro )- took my medicine and moved on - 

all this whining makes for amusing reading (like a school kid caught doing something wrong and feeling so hard done by.. ) but obey the rules ( especially towards the end of the month, as we all know that is when the targets must be met )

don't drive like 'a you know what' and all will be fine - YOU'LL GET THERE, 

In general I support the Guards in the job they are trying to do.


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## Ris (10 May 2008)

The OP asked: 


> I was wondering if first of all we sent back the demand requesting the form in Irish, then send it back stating that X was not the driver and that Y actually was. Then when the form comes out to Y request the form in either English or Irish, whichever language differs to the form they originally send to Y Would the amount of time they have to inform me have passed?


 
I am stunned at the off topic responses....


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## eamonn123456 (10 May 2008)

Yeah, because we should all pile in with advice on how to break the law and avoid the consequences!


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## DavyJones (10 May 2008)

Ris said:


> The OP asked:
> 
> 
> I am stunned at the off topic responses....


 
You are easily stunned,. the bottom line is most drivers go over the speed limit time at some stage and some get caught doing it. I can understand it may seem unfair but we all know the rules and the OP will have to take it like a man. 
If there are two drivers for the car the registered owner will get the PCN, this can be contested and if the named driver was driving, the PCN would be changed over. If you have a provisional, points will carry over when a test is passed. Also it is worth noting giving incorrect information to the Gardai may lead to a fraud charge.
I also belive that the Gardai don't have 10 year old vans/cars in service so the OP probably has nothing to worry about.


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## Brendan Burgess (10 May 2008)

I do my best to drive within the speeding limit. If I did get caught, I would just take the medicine. 

The one area I have a problem with is the few hundred yards directly after the speed limit sign. The speed limit can reduce suddenly and I slow down rather than break. I think that the signs should be moved back 200 yards and they should signify that the lower speed limit applies 200 yards on. 

The other change I would make would be to make the penalty points more meaningful. If you commit a motoring offence, you should be banned for one month with immediate effect. This would dramatically reduce the speed at which people are driving and reduce the deaths and injuries. 

There should be a full year's ban after 6 penalty points. 12 points is way too much. 

It would be very difficult to implement, but it would be great if good drivers could be rewarded in some way. Rewards change people's behaviour much more dramatically than penalties. So if a Garda saw someone slowing down as they approached an orange light, they could be given a credit. If they saw someone adjusting their driving speed to changed conditions e.g. wet roads or fog, they could give them credits as well. 

One way of achieving this would be to give people a credit for each year they drive without a penalty point. A sort of no claims bonus. If you drive safely for 5 years and then get caught for a relatively minor infringement, it would not count apart from using up your clean record.


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## DavyJones (10 May 2008)

Brendan, I pray you never get to be head of the RSA, although I do agree about the signage. The only way you ideas could work would be thet every car in the state would be linked to a central computer. Good driving and bad driving could be observed in real time and credits/punishment could be logged automatically. Now thats a scary thought.


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## Brendan Burgess (10 May 2008)

> Brendan, I pray you never get to be head of the RSA


 
How could I compete with Gay Byrne?  Isn't he doing a magnificent job? He is exactly the type of role model that all the boy racers need to look up to. I believe they are now staying in on a Saturday night to watch him on the Late Late Show.

Brendan


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## aircobra19 (10 May 2008)

television said:


> and i have been driving for 15 years and have no points.



You must be tired. Pull over an have a kip. 

Whats your point? Its an unverifiable comment, so really has no weight. I know many people who have been driving far longer and have no point and are terrible drivers. I've been driving longer with no points and I'm far from a perfect driver. 

The point system hasn't even existed 15yrs. 



ClubMan said:


> Glibly correct though.



Useful. 

It would be more useful to lock the thread, as these threads degenerate nonsensical gibberish most of the time. Put a GPS on the most perfect (at least in their own mind) driver (and don't tell them) and I would lay high odds all of them would at some point break a speed limit, or some law at some point. There are obvious flaws in how speed limits and speed checks are applied. 

http://www.irishspeedtraps.com/SpeedLimits.aspx

I'm not defending speeding, (or the OP) but there should be common sense applied here. But no ones a perfect driver, (its nonsense to suggest otherwise) But catching people out for 5 km/h in places where its easily to be caught out and its not  dangerous, is a completely farce where you could catch people doing 80~100km/h in Residential areas on daily basis. Bad driving is a habit, and bad drivers are consistently bad. There's loads of places around town where again every day, you'll see people deliberately breaking the law, and aggressive driving. That's not something people do by accident, and you can be sure they are consistently bad when they drive. However even the most careful driver can be caught out if you have inappropriate speed limits, in silly places.


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## aircobra19 (10 May 2008)

jhegarty said:


> But you can fail your driving test for not driving up to the speed limit... so the driving test says they are targets...




Its a bit inconsistent tbh. I find in the UK and other countries, the unspoken rule seems to be don't hold up other cars. Don't impede progress by sticking to the speed limit, or below it. But at the same time if there's only one car behind you, you can't ignore the speed limit claiming this is what you are doing. 

The Guards need to be consistent though.


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## z101 (10 May 2008)

you seem to have got lots of sarcasm but few answers I am afraid... 

Their points are relavent but I am sure you are old enough to have known that without been told the rules of the road on here.


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## gradgrind (10 May 2008)

For penalty points to be effective they've to be reasonably hard to get. Putting garda cars in slow down zones to catch people smoothly and safely slowing down is a good way to give 90% of the population points and render any stigma to having them obsolete. 

It's also a good way to damage the excellent relationship between public and gardai.

If the gardai want to penalize these offenses then a graduated system is needed, with just fines for an obviously safe but technically illegal speed.

It might be useful for people who believe they never speed to see what happens in the Netherlands where they've pretty much a zero tolerance approach.

[broken link removed]

Essentially 10 million fines were given last year for 7 million drivers with the head of traffic enforcement saying this is expected since "everybody speeds sometimes".

I'd far prefer the Dutch approach to our one as it least it's fair and consistent - and seemingly highly effective.


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## aircobra19 (10 May 2008)

Ceatharlach said:


> you seem to have got lots of sarcasm but few answers I am afraid...
> 
> Their points are relavent but I am sure you are old enough to have known that without been told the rules of the road on here.



I'm not sure who your referring to or what point you're commenting on, as you've posted no quote, or made any rebuttal of any specific point. I'm guessing its me though. 

I wouldn't be favour of blindly following rules, or that you have to be a certain age, to have maturity or common sense. I would much prefer people used their common sense based on the road conditions. For example, the legal limit maybe entirely inappropriate in poor conditions. Or break a light to let an emergency vehicle through.


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## aircobra19 (10 May 2008)

gradgrind said:


> ....
> 
> I'd far prefer the Dutch approach to our one as it least it's fair and consistent - and seemingly highly effective.



Interesting alright.

In Ireland we we seem to delight in breaking rules, at every level, including those in the highest and lowest office. So it seems unrealistic at best to expect everyone to be a perfect driver.


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## Jack The Lad (11 May 2008)

Brendan said:


> I do my best to drive within the speeding limit. If I did get caught, I would just take the medicine.



Why? If you're trying to drive safely and actually care about other peoples lives, then why should you take the medicine if you momentarily stray an inch beyond the strict letter of the law on one or two occasions?

The original poster was slowing down to meet the required speed limit, and was worried he would get points on his drivers license because he was doing so after the speed limit sign. He asked three fair questions wishing to clarify three technical aspects of speeding law, but was shot down. No-one has answered his questions, and the thread has veered all over the place. I find it worrying to live in a society that seeks to grip itself more and more tightly with law after law, and express a determination to obey these laws unquestioningly. There are more enlightened ways to achieve social harmony.


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## Brendan Burgess (11 May 2008)

> I find it worrying to live in a society that seeks to grip itself more and more tightly with law after law



It is far more worrying and dangerous to live in a society where hundreds of people are killed and injured by speeding and dangerous drivers. 

A balance has to be struck, and I would accept  a few people getting penalty points "unfairly" if it saved lives. 

Brendan


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## Complainer (11 May 2008)

DrMoriarty said:


> Count yourself lucky you weren't in Utah.


Wow. He got a [broken link removed].


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## aircobra19 (11 May 2008)

Brendan said:


> It is far more worrying and dangerous to live in a society where hundreds of people are killed and injured by speeding and dangerous drivers.
> 
> A balance has to be struck, and I would accept  a few people getting penalty points "unfairly" if it saved lives.
> 
> Brendan



I'd love to see some stats which show a correlation between the number and location of speeding fines/camera's and accidents and deaths in those same location. Because I don't think the current half baked scatter gun approach really achieves anything tbh. 

[broken link removed]


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## rsob (11 May 2008)

a fair point


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## television (12 May 2008)

SO Aircobra are you seriously sugesting that people can decide for themselves what speed they should drive at based on the conditions on the road weather etc.

 I can just see it now; boy racer in a souped up civic stopped by a guard doign 140mh on a dry day. Cop says "do you know you were driving 65miles over the limit" boy races replies "sure guard its great weather the road is dry" Guard replies "now that makes common sence sure you were driving based on road conditions off with ya" 
How are the police/courts to decide what is speeding then. it would be complete mayham and gives every speeding nut literaly millions of potential excuses/defences based on your "common sence based on road conditions approach" 

This common sence you talk about. You should try applying it to some of the arguments you make on here


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## aircobra19 (12 May 2008)

television said:


> SO Aircobra are you seriously sugesting that people can decide for themselves what speed they should drive at based on the conditions on the road weather etc....


 
Is that not what happens when people drive slower in rain, fog, ice etc? 

Its also what happens when theres no enforcement. On the M50 tonight I'd say 98% of drivers were doing 100~120km/h in the 60km/h zone. They are effectively setting their own limits. I'm not saying its right, but thats the reality. Where was the speed check? Just before the airport roundabout where people have come off the M1, and are slowing down to get in lane for the roundabout and the speed limit changes. At least I assume it was a speed check. Perhaps thats a black spot I dunno. Fish in a barrel anyway, especially for people not familar with the area. Which is going to be a lot at an airport. 

There obviously are unlimited roads in other countries. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_limit  Even if our roads were good enough for that, our standard of driving is abysmal. It would be madness to implement that here. I don't think I did suggest that anywhere. I didn't intend to anywayz.


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## ButtermilkJa (12 May 2008)

Jack The Lad said:


> Why? If you're trying to drive safely and actually care about other peoples lives, then why should you take the medicine if you momentarily stray an inch beyond the strict letter of the law on one or two occasions?
> 
> The original poster was slowing down to meet the required speed limit, and was worried he would get points on his drivers license because he was doing so after the speed limit sign. He asked three fair questions wishing to clarify three technical aspects of speeding law, but was shot down. No-one has answered his questions, and the thread has veered all over the place. I find it worrying to live in a society that seeks to grip itself more and more tightly with law after law, and express a determination to obey these laws unquestioningly. There are more enlightened ways to achieve social harmony.


I would be far more worried about the OP's attitude than anything else. For someone who is only driving a wet week, already has 2 penalty points and is looking at another 2 penalty points, and then trying to find ways to get out of it, and a refusal to blame himself for his problems, is very frightening.

I agree with the point about 'slowing down' rather than 'breaking' to get to 80 but if your observation is good you should spot these signs well in advance.


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## sam h (12 May 2008)

> but if your observation is good you should spot these signs well in advance


 
I agree with what you say but in alot of cases the signs are not easily observerd (or even there in many cases).  I was on the Strawberry beds and there is a stretch that is not 50km with ramps....the sign for the 50km is just after a left bend in the road.  
The M50 (southside) is now mainly 100km, rather than the normal motorway speed of 120km, yet there is very few signs (the most obvious ones are the ones on the slip roads to the left.  In reality, they should have a speed sign every 1 or 2 km's.
Many of the speed signs are just as you turn onto a road and are busy with checking the road, positioning etc.  Inveriably, there is one of the "tiny" speed signs just at the corner and none repeated along the road if you missed it.


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## aircobra19 (12 May 2008)

ButtermilkJa said:


> I would be far more worried about the OP's attitude than anything else. .... if your observation is good you should spot these signs well in advance.


 
True, worrying alright.


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## aircobra19 (12 May 2008)

Poor signage in general in Ireland. You'd be unlucky, to be caught out twice. Not impossible though. You'd have to take it on the chin though. You'd have to take it as indication of poor observation though, and a indicator to slow down. Not find ways to keep speeding and avoid it. Thats the wrong message entirely.  



sam h said:


> ....not 50km with ramps....the sign for the 50km is just after a left bend in the road. ....


 
Since theres about a squillion of those ramps, I can't imagine many would be able to speed there, it would wreck the suspension. Ruined that road tbh. Couple of speed cameras and fewer ramps would have been much better. I'd hate to live along there now, and have to face that endurance test every day.


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## television (12 May 2008)

Aircobra. I mean people should not be allowed to decide for themselves when it is okay to drive over the limit not slower than the limit. of course in certain conditions people have to adjust. but not over the limit under the limit.


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## aircobra19 (12 May 2008)

television said:


> Aircobra. I mean people should not be allowed to decide for themselves when it is okay to drive over the limit not slower than the limit. of course in certain conditions people have to adjust. but not over the limit under the limit.


 
Fair e nuff.


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## DavyJones (12 May 2008)

It was a cold January morning and the Garda had been standing beside the road for nearly an hour without catching anybody for speeding, he was cold and annoyed. Alas in the distance he heard the roar of an engine and immediately perked up, He rubbed his hands with glee as he got his speed gun, clocked the car and stopped the driver. As the Garda tapped on the window he said to the young lad behind the wheel, " Son, I've been waiting for you all morning". the young lad replied, "well Garda, I got here as fast as I could"


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## bond-007 (12 May 2008)

ClubMan said:


> No problem - just adhere to the rules of the road and speed limits so.


Let he without sin cast the first stone.


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