# Spread betting website's starter offers?



## firstin (3 Dec 2007)

Hi, does anyone have any info about offers/incentives to start with spread betting companies. I heard an offer on the radio for worldspreads.ie that they would give a refund of up to 300 euros in you were not in profit after 3 months, but i cannot find anything about this on their site now. I also remember delta index having an introductory offer a while ago. Are these offers for limited time frames, does anyone know of any companies offering anything to join at the moment?


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## ClubMan (3 Dec 2007)

firstin said:


> I heard an offer on the radio for worldspreads.ie that they would give a refund of up to 300 euros in you were not in profit after 3 months, but i cannot find anything about this on their site now.


I've head the advertisements on _Newstalk _too but cannot see anything on their site (including in the application form and terms & conditions) about this. Is there any chance that this is misleading advertising?


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## firstin (4 Dec 2007)

i just had a chat with someone from worldspreads on their live chat, he said to refer to the radio advertisement when setting up the account and that they will guarentee losses up to 300euros if you are not in profit after the first 8 weeks. seems like a great offer, although depends on whether its gambling or investing. i see on their website its called "financial spread trading" whereas delta index call it "financial spread betting". I read in some other thread here, something along the lines of: that it depends on the duration and the logic being applied to the trade that distiguishes whether its an investment or a bet.


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## seantheman (5 Dec 2007)

according to the times business section paul mc ginley is one of worldspreads backers


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## ClubMan (5 Dec 2007)

firstin said:


> i just had a chat with someone from worldspreads on their live chat, he said to refer to the radio advertisement when setting up the account and that they will guarentee losses up to 300euros if you are not in profit after the first 8 weeks.


I'm pretty sure that they don't say that on the radio advert. Is this misleading advertising?


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## z106 (5 Dec 2007)

ClubMan said:


> I'm pretty sure that they don't say that on the radio advert. Is this misleading advertising?


 
Well they offer up to €500 if you mention you saw their ad in the investor magazine.

I just set up an account a couple of weeks ago and they confirmed this in writing that the offer does indeed apply.


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## ClubMan (5 Dec 2007)

qwertyuiop said:


> Well they offer up to €500 if you mention you saw their ad in the investor magazine.


Yes - but if I recall correctly the radio does not mention that you have to explicitly mention the ad to claim the refund or that terms & conditions apply. I could be wrong but I certainly got the impression from the radio ad that this bonus would be automatic and not something that you had to know about to claim explicitly.


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## lastthread (5 Dec 2007)

They'll set an account up for you for free to test for a week or so. Try it out and see how you get on. Its not easy.


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## Another John (5 Dec 2007)

Spread betting has nothing to do with investing......it's going to the bookies.


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## z106 (5 Dec 2007)

Another John said:


> Spread betting has nothing to do with investing......it's going to the bookies.


 
That's completely incorrect.
It does not go to the bookies like it does with traditional bookies.

Just because the term 'betting' is involved does not mean they operate in teh same way.

You are not betting against the spreadmaker - you are with him.

i.e. HE gives you a spread of say,5 points.
HE then piles all those bets together and lays that off on a larger 'bookie' with a spread of say,3 points, due to the large volume.i.e.e He gets it a discount for buying in bulk.

You can basically look on the spreadmaker as the corner shop that buys cheaper from teh wholeseller.

HE doesn't necessarily win if you lose !


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## threeticks (5 Dec 2007)

ClubMan said:


> I'm pretty sure that they don't say that on the radio advert. Is this misleading advertising?


I have not read and cannot find the terms and conditions for this offer.
But I will bet that you must make a min amount of trades and min deposit of funds to start with.
Lets say you deposit 1,000 and lose 800 over the period and they give you a refund of 300 then you will still be down 500 and they up 500.
Either way you lose.

I would like to see the terms.


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## z106 (5 Dec 2007)

threeticks said:


> I have not read and cannot find the terms and conditions for this offer.
> But I will bet that you must make a min amount of trades and min deposit of funds to start with.
> Lets say you deposit 1,000 and lose 800 over the period and they give you a refund of 300 then you will still be down 500 and they up 500.
> Either way you lose.
> ...


 
Here are the terms. This is what I got in an email when I asked for the offer to be confirmed.
By the way -  I think you misunerstand how the spreadbetting firms work. You are not betting against them as you seem to thibk.
See my earlier post for an explanation as to how spreadbetting firms work.

_The Cash Back consists of a maximum rebate per account of €500.00 which may be applied towards settlement of any realised losses incurred on trading on the account up to 8 weeks after the account opening date. The cash back is cumulative, and cannot exceed an aggregate of €500.00 per account. _

_You have 14 days after the end of the 8 week Cash Back period to make your claim (i.e. anytime within 10 weeks of the account opening date). If you have not claimed the Cash Back within the above period, any unused portion thereof will be deemed to have lapsed._

_It is the responsibility of the client to claim the cash back and the cash back will not automatically be applied to offset losses. Any client taking advantage of the Promotion must have completed the full account application procedure and may not avail him/her self of any or all of the Cash Back while his or her account is delinquent in any respect._


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## Fintan (5 Dec 2007)

qwertyuiop said:


> HE doesn't necessarily win if you lose !



I would disagree, to use your example if he sells at five and buys at three, he wins either way. 

Think of it like a broker buying shares on behalf of a customer, they are earning a spread and a commission. Price flucuations don't impact the broker P&L, the only impact is the ability of clients to do more trading.


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## z106 (5 Dec 2007)

Brendan - I have seen other posts you have made on spreadbetting and you clearly misunderstand the concept.
I think you should have a proper grasp of the topic first before making such sweeping incorrect statements.

Yes - you can call it gambling if you wish - but it is no more gambling than CFDs or buying shares without leverage.

You are NOT competing against the bookie like you do with say, backing a horse..

I think to move this topic from "savings and investmenst" due to it being,as you say, gambling and not moving discussions on,say, CFDs is not consistent and in fact - albeit unintentionally - misleading people as to the merits of using financial spreadbetting as an alternative way of playing the markets.



Fintan said:


> I would disagree, to use your example if he sells at five and buys at three, he wins either way.
> 
> Think of it like a broker buying shares on behalf of a customer, they are earning a spread and a commission. Price flucuations don't impact the broker P&L, the only impact is the ability of clients to do more trading.


 
You are quite right - he does make money either way - in that they charge a small fee for using their service - as does a broker ! 
The main point I was trying to illustrate though is that they are not like traditional bookies whereby the odds are set in such a way that over the long term you will lose. You CAN win over the long term with spreadbetting companies - and they are quite happy for you to do so !

As a financial trader you are not in direct competition with the bookmaker - you are competing against the market.You pay the bookmaker a small fee like you would pay a broker to enable youto play the market - however you have other advantages by going with a bookie that are not present with a broker.


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## chicote (5 Dec 2007)

If spread betting is gambling then so is all form of share trading. Spread betting is tax free investing for those that properly understand it. Anyone who says otherwise has probably gotten 'burnt' due do uneducated attempts at placing a trade/bet.
Read 'The Financial Spread Betting Handbook' by Malcolm Pryor before placing any trades.
P.S sounds like you are planning to loose if you are so concerned about refunds on loosing trades, your only concerns re the firm should be the reputation of the spread betting firm and the size of their spreads


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## threeticks (5 Dec 2007)

chicote said:


> If spread betting is gambling then so is all form of share trading. Spread betting is tax free investing for those that properly understand it. Anyone who says otherwise has probably gotten 'burnt' due do uneducated attempts at placing a trade/bet.
> Read 'The Financial Spread Betting Handbook' by Malcolm Pryor before placing any trades.
> P.S sounds like you are planning to loose if you are so concerned about refunds on loosing trades, your only concerns re the firm should be the reputation of the spread betting firm and the size of their spreads


 
I agree 100% Chicote.
Every business or investment is a gamble.
It has taken me over four years to learn to trade the forex market and I now use spread betting as my vechile to trade because its tax free.


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## Brendan Burgess (5 Dec 2007)

Spread betting is gambling

CFD's are probably gambling as well and I will look into the posts on these and deal with them accordingly. 

When you buy shares for the long term, you have a postive expected outcome. Of course you may lose, but it is not gambling. 

Gambling is where you have a negative expected outcome over a series of bets. Some few people will win. Most will lose. And the bookies will almost always win in the long term. 

Brendan


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## z106 (5 Dec 2007)

Brendan said:


> When you buy shares for the long term, you have a postive expected outcome. Of course you may lose, but it is not gambling.
> 
> Gambling is where you have a negative expected outcome over a series of bets. Some few people will win. Most will lose. And the bookies will almost always win in the long term.
> 
> Brendan


 
I agree with your 2 atatements above - however they are not in any way relevant to spreadbetting. 
The 2nd statement is not inherent in spreadbetting at all as you seem to think.

Spread betting is effectively the same as gearing up to buy shares - over both short or long term periods  !

Because there is gearing involved,it does not in any way make the expected outcome of the chosen equities to return negative results rather than positive results as you seem to suggest in statement 2.

Gearing happens with property all the time. Is that gambling too?
Or is it only gambling when done with equities? 

With spreadbetting,you are not betting against the bookie like traditional sports betting - you are betting aginst the market - the 'bookie' is merely a middleman that facilitates this bet for a minimal fee in much the same way a broker does.


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## lastthread (6 Dec 2007)

hi qwertyuiop,
who would you say worldspreads uses as the larger bookie if they dont assume the bet themselves?


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## z106 (6 Dec 2007)

lastthread said:


> hi qwertyuiop,
> who would you say worldspreads uses as the larger bookie if they dont assume the bet themselves?


 
DOn't know.


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## threeticks (6 Dec 2007)

qwertyuiop said:


> That's completely incorrect.
> It does not go to the bookies like it does with traditional bookies.
> 
> Just because the term 'betting' is involved does not mean they operate in teh same way.
> ...


 
WorldSpreads has announced a 534pc rise in profit before tax of E1.31 million for the six months ended 30th September 2007. 

I doubt this kind of profit was made in six months from the spread alone .


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## threeticks (6 Dec 2007)

threeticks said:


> I have not read and cannot find the terms and conditions for this offer.
> But I will bet that you must make a min amount of trades and min deposit of funds to start with.
> Lets say you deposit 1,000 and lose 800 over the period and they give you a refund of 300 then you will still be down 500 and they up 500.
> Either way you lose.
> ...


 
The point I am trying to make is that you will be the one out of pocket.
It dosnt matter who has your money.
What matters is that you wont have it.

Having said that I trade through a spread betting company.
Simply because I dont pay tax on my profit.


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## z106 (7 Dec 2007)

threeticks said:


> The point I am trying to make is that you will be the one out of pocket.
> It dosnt matter who has your money.
> What matters is that you wont have it.
> 
> ...


 
I'm not sure this makes sense.

If you are so convinvced  that you will be out of pocket then why do you trade with spreadbetting companies ?


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## EddieT (7 Dec 2007)

Brendan said:


> Spread betting is gambling
> 
> CFD's are probably gambling as well and I will look into the posts on these and deal with them accordingly.
> 
> ...


 

Brendan,

Some bad news for you. Spread Betting is a a forum being used more and more by the "buy and hold" fraternity. As a matter of fact it is actually a far more tax efficient method as it is not subject to capital gains tax.

What happens is the individual takes a position on a rolling contract without a stop loss (contract never expires). The balance of the money (capital less margin) is placed in a high-yield account for the foreseeable future. So the fees, charges relating to the movement of the stock are more than covered by (a) the fact that CGT of 20% is not charged on any gains when you sell the stock and (b) the interest gained from the high yield acount. The only downside to this method of "*investing*" is that the tax from losses are not offset against other income.

But according to the "buy and hold" fraternity 'shares will always go positive if you leave them [long enough]' so this approach would be appear to be 'better than the real thing'.

Would you like the opportunity to rephrase your originally statement now?

Regards,

EddieT


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## threeticks (9 Dec 2007)

qwertyuiop said:


> I'm not sure this makes sense.
> 
> If you are so convinvced that you will be out of pocket then why do you trade with spreadbetting companies ?


 
I was referring to an offer of a refund from a spread betting company.

Not spread betting in general.


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## Brendan Burgess (27 Dec 2007)

I have written a Key Post on the differences between Investing and Gambling to put the discussion of Spread Betting in context. It's at

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=70918


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## limerickmick (4 Jan 2008)

qwertyuiop said:


> I'm not sure this makes sense.
> 
> If you are so convinvced that you will be out of pocket then why do you trade with spreadbetting companies ?


 
can anyone recommend any trading software for an inexperienced investor who is interested and am currently spread trading?


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## z106 (4 Jan 2008)

limerickmick said:


> can anyone recommend any trading software for an inexperienced investor who is interested and am currently spread trading?


 
You can set up a virtual account with delta index and worldspreads.


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