# MBNA have no record of a signed contract



## DublinCeltic (4 Oct 2010)

Hi all, just looking for a bit of advice.
I had a credit card with mbna and i stopped paying what i owe due to financial reasons and also as i noticed a change in the interest.
I wrote a letter to them asking for a true copy of my agreement which i received but it didn't contain my signature.
It has since been passed onto a debt collection company and i told them the situation about the difference on their contract and the original one that i had.
They told me they would get back to me when they speak with mbna.
They rang me back and said mbna had no copy of my agreement and that i probably just applied online, i cannot remember which way i applied as it was in 2006.
I was also told that they often change the apr but surely they would have to inform me if they do this ? The debt collection company want me to send them the copy i have but i am not sure if this is the best way to sort this out.
I have no problem repaying what i owe but with two conflicting interest rates i do not know what the actual amount is.

Any suggestions ?


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## redbhoy (6 Oct 2010)

Ignore the Debt Collection Agency as they have no legal standing. Your business is with MBNA anyway. 
If they cant provide you with the true contract then they cant bring you to court for breach of that contract.


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## Sunny (6 Oct 2010)

redbhoy said:


> Ignore the Debt Collection Agency as they have no legal standing. Your business is with MBNA anyway.


 
Thats simply not true.


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## Sunny (6 Oct 2010)

MBNA as with all credit card providers can change the rates they charge. Often, they simply have to publish the changes in a National newspaper but usually you get a note about it. I wouldn't read too much into the rate on the original contract. Rates change all the time.


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## redbhoy (6 Oct 2010)

Sunny said:


> Thats simply not true.


 
So a 3rd party can get involved in a breach of contract where there is no contract??

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/act/pub/0026/sec0011.html#zza26y1997s11


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## Sunny (6 Oct 2010)

redbhoy said:


> So a 3rd party can get involved in a breach of contract where there is no contract??
> 
> http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/act/pub/0026/sec0011.html#zza26y1997s11


 
Stop giving legal advice when you obviously know nothing about it. The OP has a copy of a contract. He borrowed money on the credit card. MBNA say they can't find the agreement but probably could if they really looked. MBNA are perfectly entitled to pass the debt onto a debt collection agency. 
You go to court and say yes I borrowed money over a preiod of time and yes I have a copy of the agreement but since MBNA don't, I am not paying them back. Do you want to hazard a guess based on your legal skills what a Court would say?

I am not a solicitor by the way. Plenty on this forum who give good advice. I just wish people would stop advising people to ignore things based on some perceived legal loophole that they think they discovered through a 5 minute internet search.


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## redbhoy (6 Oct 2010)

Sunny said:


> Stop giving legal advice when you obviously know nothing about it. The OP has a copy of a contract. He borrowed money on the credit card. MBNA say they can't find the agreement but probably could if they really looked. MBNA are perfectly entitled to pass the debt onto a debt collection agency.
> You go to court and say yes I borrowed money over a preiod of time and yes I have a copy of the agreement but since MBNA don't, I am not paying them back. Do you want to hazard a guess based on your legal skills what a Court would say?
> 
> I am not a solicitor by the way. Plenty on this forum who give good advice. I just wish people would stop advising people to ignore things based on some perceived legal loophole that they think they discovered through a 5 minute internet search.


 
The OP doesnt have a copy of the contract. Doesnt a contract have to have a signature on it??


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## Sunny (6 Oct 2010)

redbhoy said:


> The OP doesnt have a copy of the contract. Doesnt a contract have to have a signature on it??


 
Not necessarily. He has a copy of the Agreement. He borrowed money on the back of that Agreement. He can't just turn around now and say I am not paying because you can't find a copy with my signature. If he was so concerned, he should have gone looking for a signed copy before he spent on the credit card.


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## redbhoy (6 Oct 2010)

OP cant remember how he/she applied for cc so how does he/she know this is the actual true copy if there is no signature on it?


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## Sunny (6 Oct 2010)

Grand so. Ignore it. MBNA haven't got a leg to stand on.


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## redbhoy (6 Oct 2010)

Sunny said:


> Grand so. Ignore it. MBNA haven't got a leg to stand on.


 
You should never ignore a situation like this but the onus is usually on the plaintiff to prove its case.


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## BazFitz (6 Oct 2010)

redbhoy said:


> You should never ignore a situation like this but the onus is usually on the plaintiff to prove its case.


 
Which in this case the plaintiff should have absolutely no problem doing.


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## Ivers57 (6 Oct 2010)

This no signed contract for a credit card nonsence is really snow balling, might end up really hurting a few nieve people in the long run..


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## Papercut (6 Oct 2010)

False hope is sometimes more painful than no hope, as reality has an annoying habit of slapping you in the face sooner or later.

When I had an MBNA credit card it clearly stated on the back of the card ''By the use of this card the Customer agrees to MBNA Terms & Conditions'', so I was never under any illusions about owing them money that I spent using it.

OP, you don't have a leg to stand on, & anyone who tells you otherwise is giving you false, misleading & extremely irresponsible advice.

If you had issues with interest rates, you should have paid what you thought was correct, & taken issue with MBNA regarding the difference, instead of paying nothing & ignoring the debt.

You could still work out what you feel you owe them, pay that amount & take the issue of the difference up with them.


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## missdaisy (6 Oct 2010)

OP, my advice would be not to listen to redbhoy's advice in this situation.  +1 to waht papercut and sunny have said.


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## LS400 (6 Oct 2010)

Op, for your own sake, Pay what you owe. If this it goes to court you will be ripped apart for your stance.


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## missdaisy (6 Oct 2010)

LS400 said:


> ... you will be ripped apart for your stance.


 
And you will still owe the money. It's better to deal with this issue now and come to an arrangement with MBNA.


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## redbhoy (6 Oct 2010)

I recommend having a look at this website and reading Mary Crofts free ebook. 
http://spiritualeconomicsnow.net/


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## missdaisy (6 Oct 2010)

Why do you recommend that?


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## redbhoy (6 Oct 2010)

missdaisy said:


> Why do you recommend that?


 

Takes away the fear about banks and credit card companies. It did for me anyway and some others I know. Its an interesting read.


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## Petermack (6 Oct 2010)

redbhoy said:


> I recommend having a look at this website and reading Mary Crofts free ebook.
> http://spiritualeconomicsnow.net/


 
Nothing on this website is relevant to Ireland


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## marti18 (6 Oct 2010)

at the end of the day you still owe the money......you spent it so you must pay it back UNLESS your a banker who get bailed out of everything


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## redbhoy (7 Oct 2010)

marti18 said:


> at the end of the day you still owe the money......you spent it so you must pay it back UNLESS your a banker who get bailed out of everything


 

And the penny drops. Why do the Bankers and upper eschalons get away with it??
Perhaps they know this game better than most.


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## Sunny (7 Oct 2010)

redbhoy said:


> And the penny drops. Why do the Bankers and upper eschalons get away with it??
> Perhaps they know this game better than most.


 
Look, ranting about Bankers and upper echalons belongs in LOS. And I am sure many of us agree with that there does sometimes seem to be one rule for some and another rule for others. However, advising someone to ignore debt collection agencies or that some legal loophole exists to get them out their debt has no place in a serious financial advice thread.


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## missdaisy (7 Oct 2010)

+1 Sunny, I hope the OP heeds the advice of the majority on this thread.


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## Time (7 Oct 2010)

Indeed, some dangerous stuff being spouted by some people. 

Op, follow the sage advice given.


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## nlgbbbblth (8 Oct 2010)

redbhoy said:


> I recommend having a look at this website and reading Mary Crofts free ebook.
> http://spiritualeconomicsnow.net/




Mary Craft is a misguided charlatan preying on guillible fools like you.


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## redbhoy (8 Oct 2010)

nlgbbbblth said:


> Mary Craft is a misguided charlatan preying on guillible fools like you.




How is that? Has Mary Croft sold me anything recently. 

Can someone tell how a debt collector can pursue you if you choose to ignore them? Enlighten me please? No contract- no court date!

Are there people here with vested interests or are there people who feel they owe it to somebody to pay off fraudulent alleged debts and convince everyone else that its the right thing to do ??


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## Papercut (9 Oct 2010)

redbhoy said:
			
		

> Can someone tell how a debt collector can pursue you if you choose to ignore them? Enlighten me please? No contract- no court date!



No-one has mentioned debt collectors so far in this thread apart from just now when you did. in post #2 you referred to the Debt Collection Agency. There is a difference between the two. Quite a lot of lenders/businesses use the legitimate services of a Debt Collection Agency to pursue debts on their behalf, usually when internal efforts have been exhausted or repayment agreements have been broken. In this situation the debt still belongs to the lender/business. The debtor can inform the Debt Collection Agency they they do not wish to deal with them. This will have had the desired effect, as they will then have to engage with the original debtor, & hopefully come to a mutual agreement.

Alternatively, the lender/business can actually sell the debt on (assign the debt) to any third party, who in turn can take a legal action aginst the debtor. Usually this would be to a Debt Collection Agency. MBNA have been known to do this. The debtor would usually be informed of the intention to sell the debt on & also that it has been sold on.





			
				redbhoy said:
			
		

> Are there people here with vested interests or are there people who feel they owe it to somebody to pay off fraudulent alleged debts and convince everyone else that its the right thing to do ??


What fraudulent alleged debts are you referring to in the case of the OP?

Even the OP admits & acknowledges the debt. By using the card they have automatically agreed to MBNA terms & conditions.

This is the reality of the situation, so trying to make the OP believe that they can renague on their responsibilies to repay the money that they, by their own admission, owe to MBMA, is not only unrealistic & unreasonle, it is simply untrue.

If it's so easy to wangle out of credit card debt, why don't you do what you are advising the OP to do, & see how successful you are in your plight? Maybe then you will begin to understand that your advice to the OP is totally unrealistic, & that MBNA are not responsible to fund the lifestyle of their cardholders without being repaid at some stage down the line. Even St Vincent de Paul don't do this, & they are a registered charity.


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## nlgbbbblth (9 Oct 2010)

redbhoy said:


> How is that? Has Mary Croft sold me anything recently.



No idea. 

You seem to think the crap she spouts is worthwhile though.


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## redbhoy (11 Oct 2010)

Papercut said:


> If it's so easy to wangle out of credit card debt, why don't you do what you are advising the OP to do, & see how successful you are in your plight?


 
Just to note that I am in the process of doing this. Ive done a lot of research in the area of banking and the courts system. When its over and done with I'll post up the details. I doubt it will ever end though as they wouldnt want everyone knowing this information as 'their' system will crumble on its dodgy foundation.


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## JustAnother (16 Oct 2010)

If there is no signed contract how can the OP be expected to prepare his case against MBNA. It would also be a breach of various parts of the Irish Consumer Credit Act 1995.
Suggest you review the law yourselves,

irishstatutebook.ie/1995/en/act/pub/0024/index.html

I would suggest you ask them formally for a true and correct signed copy of the terms and conditions you *initially* agreed to, this is in order to enable you to verify their claims, it is also your legal right. Send this by registered post, print do not sign your name, and give them a fixed period of time to reply (14 days), you also need to pay a couple of euros to cover the cost of your request.

I'm not saying that this will let you get out of the debt, but MBNA have obligations, and they are not above the law (as much as they like to pretend they are)

I would suggest *anyone* getting hassled by MBNA read carefully sections 43, and 46 of this act. The Irish law here is based on an EU directive, so this will be similar throughout the EU.


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## JustAnother (16 Oct 2010)

By failing to comply with this consumers request, MBNA will have made commited a summary offence, and be liable for a fine of £1500-£50,000* with ongoing daily fines also. While they are in breach they may *NOT* pursure the debt further.

*I assume this is converted to the correct Euro value, as the law predates joining the single currency.


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## fababby (16 Oct 2010)

Just read the sections of the act you mentioned i.e. 43 and 46.  It doesn't mention that the original agreement (you are requesting from the lender)has to be signed.  am I missing something?

A


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## JustAnother (17 Oct 2010)

citizensinformation.ie/categories/money-and-tax/personal-finance/loans-and-credit/moneylending_in_ireland

*Moneylending agreement information*

   Moneylenders are required under the Consumer Credit Act to provide their  customers with detailed lending agreements that show the total cost of credit and the rate of interest,  plus any collection charges that may apply. No other charges, such as  administrative or transaction costs, are allowed to be applied by the  lender.  *The lending agreement must also be signed by both the lender   and the customer. 
*


And from the actual act:



*30*.—(1) A credit agreement and any contract of guarantee relating  thereto* shall be made in writing and signed by the consumer and by  or  on behalf of all other parties* to the agreement


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## DublinCeltic (26 Oct 2010)

Thanks for the replies. Just to clarify that i am acknowledging the debt but its the interest rate that i have an issue with. My copy has a different interest rate to the one they provided me with recently but it wasn't signed by me. I was told that they can change the rate anytime but surely i must have to agree with that in the first place or at least be informed ?

Also, i asked for all correspondence to be by email or written letter yet i am still getting phonecalls from private numbers, the last time i answered it was the debt collection company again.
I am forwarding my copy to them so they can investigate further but i seem to be getting the same response all the time from the debt collection company  as they say they are the owners of the debt.
It's getting very messy.


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## Dachshund (26 Oct 2010)

JustAnother said:


> And from the actual act:
> 
> 
> 
> *30*.—(1) A credit agreement and any contract of guarantee relating  thereto* shall be made in writing and signed by the consumer and by  or  on behalf of all other parties* to the agreement



What JustAnother has neglected to point out is that Section 30 (4) of the act *does not apply to credit card accounts.

"*(4) This section does not apply to credit in the form of advances on a current account, or on credit card accounts."


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## Sunny (27 Oct 2010)

DublinCeltic said:


> Thanks for the replies. Just to clarify that i am acknowledging the debt but its the interest rate that i have an issue with. My copy has a different interest rate to the one they provided me with recently but it wasn't signed by me. I was told that they can change the rate anytime but surely i must have to agree with that in the first place or at least be informed ?



They don't have to inform you personally. It is sufficient for them to simply take out an ad in a newspaper. It is standard terms and conditions for credit card accounts.


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## whattodo? (16 Nov 2010)

It has been agreed with the Government that any online application that you submit comes with a digital signature which has the same legal standing a physical signed document.


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## Time (16 Nov 2010)

What is this digital signature you speak of?


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## whattodo? (16 Nov 2010)

The Electronic Commerce Act, 2000 gives legal recognition to electronic signatures. An electronic signature is defined as "data in electronic form attached to, incorporated in or logically associated with other electronic data and which serves as a method of authenticating the purported originator, and includes an advanced electronic signature". The Act recognises current encryption technology and is designed to be technologically neutral.

Basically when you click online and agree to the terms and conditions of a loan/credit card - you are signing your agreement.

Going back to the original post - if you applied online, then you agreed to all terms and conditions - a physical signature does not need to be present.


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## Time (16 Nov 2010)

They do need to verify the identity of the applicant as per the CJA 1994. Sometimes they forget.


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## whattodo? (16 Nov 2010)

yes - by sending in other documentation - ie. copy of passport, bank statement etc - they will have other back up documentation but he/she only asked for the contract


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