# Clare county council & proof of household charge



## thedaras (18 Sep 2012)

Just been listening and reading about Clare county council looking for proof of payment of the household charge.

Apart from those who CANT pay, and along with all those who have exemptions.I think its a wonderful idea.

Something like 50% of students get grants,and some of us who have paid the household charge and pay our students fees are as usual being left to carry the can.
The cost of this is enormous and yet a some of those who wont pay the household charge are the very ones looking to get free fees and anything else they can manage to wriggle out of paying.


For me paying the fees of my student is difficult,and yet he is with others who are on grants,who have no need to work part time,who go on weekends away,who can afford to go on nights out etc.
For a 100 euro investment you get 2500 euro, that's a bargain!


----------



## blueband (18 Sep 2012)

im no expert on matters of the law, but if a legal challange is taken against clare co council,and or the government, i think the government would loose this one!


----------



## truthseeker (18 Sep 2012)

blueband said:


> im no expert on matters of the law, but if a legal challange is taken against clare co council,and or the government, i think the government would loose this one!



I agree. Its extortion. 

But on a practical note, it makes no sense at all. All they are doing is further proving they havent a clue who paid and who didnt. You could fill out the form (the one Ive seen anyway) with any old rubbish and force it back on them to check if it was paid. Which is what they cannot seem to do.


----------



## Pique318 (18 Sep 2012)

thedaras said:


> some of those who wont pay the household charge are the very ones looking to get free fees and anything else they can manage to wriggle out of paying.



Exactly !

And just wait for the hoo-ha over this...bloody ridiculous !


----------



## thedaras (18 Sep 2012)

truthseeker said:


> I agree. Its extortion.
> You could fill out the form (the one Ive seen anyway) with any old rubbish and force it back on them to check if it was paid. Which is what they cannot seem to do.



What do you mean "fill out the form with any old rubbish "? 
As per this article they are looking for "Proof " of payment..

[broken link removed]


> South Tipperary County Council has decided to ask applicants to "submit evidence of having paid the charge in advance of payment of the grant", a spokeswoman said.
> 
> The council will process grant applications but will not make payments until evidence of the household charge payment is received, she said. The council may review the decision in light of local and national developments, she added.



Meanwhile, Clare County Council has defended writing to college grant applicants asking for proof of household charge payments.


----------



## burmo (18 Sep 2012)

I think it is an excellent idea.


----------



## Shawady (18 Sep 2012)

I wonder what other areas they could use this tactic.
Applying for child benefit or claiming back tax on the Med 1 for example.


----------



## Jazz01 (18 Sep 2012)

I think it's a disgrace...


----------



## Time (18 Sep 2012)

Totally illegal!


----------



## Shawady (18 Sep 2012)

Don't you need a tax clearance cert to qualify for certain things, for example to be a taxi driver?
It's possible the government could could extend this line of thinking and deem anyone that has not paid their household charge to be tax non-compliant. Then to qualify for certain tax reliefs or social welfare payments you must be tax compliant.


----------



## T McGibney (18 Sep 2012)

Shawady said:


> Then to qualify for certain tax reliefs or social welfare payments you must be tax compliant.



This would be an outrageous infringement on individual rights and in practice would mean that children could go hungry if a parent is negligent with their tax obligations or if a Revenue glitch generates a complication on a parent's tax record.


----------



## bazermc (18 Sep 2012)

Shawady said:


> Don't you need a tax clearance cert to qualify for certain things, for example to be a taxi driver?
> It's possible the government could could extend this line of thinking and deem anyone that has not paid their household charge to be tax non-compliant. Then to qualify for certain tax reliefs or social welfare payments you must be tax compliant.


 
Household charge is not a tax in the context of a tax clearance certificate.


----------



## Shawady (18 Sep 2012)

So someone can get a tax clearance cert even though they have not paid the household charge?
I wonder if that will be the case when the property tax itself comes in.


----------



## bazermc (18 Sep 2012)

Shawady said:


> So someone can get a tax clearance cert even though they have not paid the household charge?
> I wonder if that will be the case when the property tax itself comes in.


 

A Tax Clearance Certificate is a written confirmation from Revenue that a person's tax affairs are in order at the date of issue of the Certificate.  The property tax will be collected by Revenue, so, I would think than the payment of the property tax must be met before a tax clearance could be issued.


----------



## Pique318 (18 Sep 2012)

T McGibney said:


> This would be an outrageous infringement on individual rights and in practice would mean that children could go hungry if a parent is negligent with their tax obligations or if a Revenue glitch generates a complication on a parent's tax record.



Hysterical arguements like this add nothing to the debate.

It could be deducted from child benefit/dole at the rate of approx €8 per month if the householder is unwilling to pay. 
No-one is gona go hungry over the head of €2 per week.

To those claiming it's illegal, please explain your statements.

To those claiming it's a disgrace...what do you propose should be done to those who refuse to pay taxes and continue to claim benefits/grants ?


----------



## T McGibney (18 Sep 2012)

Pique318 said:


> Hysterical arguements like this add nothing to the debate.
> 
> It could be deducted from child benefit/dole at the rate of approx €8 per month if the householder is unwilling to pay.
> No-one is gona go hungry over the head of €2 per week.
> ...



I think you have missed my point.  A poster proposed actually disqualifying claimants from benefits unless tax affairs were all in order. In that context, is it _that_ outlandish to speculate on the effects this might have on children? I stand over my contention that withholding benefits to the needy on that basis would be a gross infringement of individual rights. 

Your own suggestion of weekly deductions from benefits is a different matter entirely.


----------



## blueband (18 Sep 2012)

i doubht very much if clare co council or the government will follow through on this, sounds like just another cheap scare tactic!


----------



## truthseeker (18 Sep 2012)

thedaras said:


> What do you mean "fill out the form with any old rubbish "?



As per the link you posted, it says if you do not have the receipt to hand, fill out the following: 

Name
PPSN
Date Paid
Amount Paid

(Ive used shorter versions of whats actually written).

So - fill out any old rubbish.

I also think that 



thedaras said:


> The cost of this is enormous and yet a some of those who wont pay the household charge are the very ones looking to get free fees and *anything else they can manage to wriggle out of paying.*


is a terrible attitude to take towards people who are claiming a grant they are legally entitled to. Are we only to encourage wealthy people to have their children educated now? If a child of a low income family wants to go to university should we tell them to get lost because their parents are going to *wriggle out of* the fees?


----------



## truthseeker (18 Sep 2012)

Pique318 said:


> To those claiming it's illegal, please explain your statements.



Link



> The Student Support Act 2011 does not provide for withholding of the payment of a student grant on foot of non-payment of the household charge.


----------



## truthseeker (18 Sep 2012)

How does this work where the students family are renting or living in local authority housing and as such exempt from the charge? 

Seems like there is discrimination against the children of homeowners.


----------



## MrMan (18 Sep 2012)

thedaras said:


> For me paying the fees of my student is difficult,and yet he is with others who are on grants,who have no need to work part time,who go on weekends away,who can afford to go on nights out etc.
> For a 100 euro investment you get 2500 euro, that's a bargain!



€2500 to cover weekends away, nights out, accomodation for 9 months, and other associated costs without working part time. So your saying that €69 per week allows someone to do all of those things?


----------



## Time (18 Sep 2012)

Blackmail plain and simple.


----------



## reddanmm (18 Sep 2012)

Totally sick to death of the household charge debate . Its not a measly 2 euros a week that a lot of posters are saying, its what to come down the line 
they have tried and used so many tactics . 
next it will be the council painting your front door in big red letters  
NONPAYER 
If they are going down the line of saying that you are not tax compliant then they should apply this mantra to grants for home insulation , farm grants the list is endless . It has to be illegal .


----------



## ajapale (18 Sep 2012)

Does anyone know what exact wording the County Council used?


----------



## truthseeker (18 Sep 2012)

ajapale said:


> Does anyone know what exact wording the County Council used?



[broken link removed] is the only thing Ive seen (if its even real?)


----------



## ajapale (18 Sep 2012)

Thanks truth seeker.

So it looks like the onus is on the student to determine who the property owner is and to find out the property owners PPS number! It appears that this has to be done even in the case of tenants. 

Remember tenants are not liable for the HC but it seems tenant students are being forced to be some kind of private detectives to determine the HC tax status of their landlords. This is outrageous.

aj


----------



## blueband (18 Sep 2012)

ajapale said:


> Thanks truth seeker.
> 
> So it looks like the onus is on the student to determine who the property owner is and to find out the property owners PPS number! It appears that this has to be done even in the case of tenants.
> 
> ...


i wouldnt worry about it too much, it was a 'cheap shot' thats never going to work!


----------



## SarahMc (18 Sep 2012)

I wouldnt be so sure it wont work, it was a hot topic around the water cooler today, and certainly jitters were apparant in some who hitherto argued vehemently against paying.

Its not going to get everyone logging in to pay, but people are starting to realise payment is unavoidable.


----------



## Mrs Vimes (18 Sep 2012)

Does any one know:

If you have a commercial premises, do they delay your child's grant if your rates are not up to date?

If you are a council tenant, does having rent arrears on your account cause the same delay?

Just wondering whether the councils who are looking for proof of HC payment are being consistent - they are saying HC is supposed to fund the admin staff who process the grants but rates and rent are also a major source of income?


----------



## thedaras (18 Sep 2012)

I also wonder how many TDs have paid and how many of those in the county council who are collecting it and sending letters to others about it have actually paid it. 
A poster mentioned my figure of 2500 earlier of being used for accommodation, nights out etc working it out at 69 euro per week well you missed the point, they get their fees paid and some maintenance grant due to distance which means his parents don't have to pay anything except his 'fun money 'whereas some of us have to pay the lot of it.


----------



## truthseeker (19 Sep 2012)

SarahMc said:


> Its not going to get everyone logging in to pay, but people are *starting to realise* payment is unavoidable.



When did anyone not realise that, the late payment schedule of interest and penalties is in black and white on the website 

Id be interested to know the numbers on this latest unethical shambles. Over 600,000 still have not paid, how many of these (a) have a student in 3rd level who is (b) applying for a grant where (c) the parents are homeowners who have not paid the HC.


----------



## SallyM (19 Sep 2012)

I think it's a good idea.  Nobody wanted to pay this charge.  A lot of people (including myself) are struggling - but I paid the charge and will have to find the money next year to pay it also, because it's the law.

I know lots of people who have not paid it (most of whom are better off than I am)  and the only one's that have received any reminder are ones who have 2nd properties who have registered with the NPPR.  Obhiously there seems to be a problem compliling a list of household's via ESB etc, therefore Clare Co Co are simply thinking outside the box as to how to collect it and I think other's should follow suit.


----------



## truthseeker (19 Sep 2012)

SallyM said:


> I know lots of people who have not paid it (*most of whom are better off than I am*)



And would you know the financial details of many of your neighbours


----------



## Protocol (19 Sep 2012)

Mrs Vimes said:


> Does any one know:
> 
> If you have a commercial premises, do they delay your child's grant if your rates are not up to date?
> 
> ...


 
Good point.


----------



## NOAH (19 Sep 2012)

there is an excuse for a spokesman from
 clare council on local radio now trying to wriggle out of the mess they have put themselves in and had to admit that the grant could not be withheld.

we should look at the allowances that clare council members or workers claim.


----------



## MrMan (19 Sep 2012)

thedaras said:


> I also wonder how many TDs have paid and how many of those in the county council who are collecting it and sending letters to others about it have actually paid it.
> A poster mentioned my figure of 2500 earlier of being used for accommodation, nights out etc working it out at 69 euro per week well you missed the point, they get their fees paid and some maintenance grant due to distance which means his parents don't have to pay anything except his 'fun money 'whereas some of us have to pay the lot of it.



I don't think any point was missed, it does work out at €69 per week, and you said that they can have weekends away and nights out without having to work part time, I was just pointing out the flaw in your argument.


----------



## blueband (19 Sep 2012)

yeah just listened to that on the raido, seems like they now trying to crawl out of a hole they dug themselves into!


----------



## truthseeker (19 Sep 2012)

blueband said:


> yeah just listened to that on the raido, seems like they now trying to crawl out of a hole they dug themselves into!



What radio station please?


----------



## NOAH (19 Sep 2012)

clare fm and it was NOT a council decision, it was a management one.  The finance guy was talking but at the end left it as  " those who reply to letter to say charge was paid will be processed quicker than those who do not reply or who do reply to say charge has not been paid." The money goes straight to the student  bank anyway so why bother.

Its a nasty trick aimed at the weak and typical of ireland.  NAMA should adopt those tactics and get some of our money back instead of paying salaries to those who ruined us.


----------



## Shawady (19 Sep 2012)

T McGibney said:


> A poster proposed actually disqualifying claimants from benefits unless tax affairs were all in order.


 
I was not suggesting that claimants be disqualified at all, just speculating that this move by Clare county council could be the thin end of a wedge and the government may extend it to other areas where it gives money to people.
For example, if someone claims back €200 on the Med 1 form but has not paid the household charge, the €100 could be deducted formt this.
Or in the case of child benefit, if the applicant has not paid the charge, the €100 could be deducted from the first month (whihc is €140 per child).

It would require a line on these forms asking if the applicant has paid the household charge.


----------



## T McGibney (19 Sep 2012)

Shawady said:


> I was not suggesting that claimants be disqualified at all, just speculating ...



You are quite correct. Apologies. And the point you made is definitely worth discussing.


----------



## burmo (19 Sep 2012)

Agh... This government has no back bone at all... to not be able to collect a charge that is due. Yet at the same time people wonder why we didn't have the strenght to tell Europe no to the bank bailout.


----------



## dereko1969 (19 Sep 2012)

"*The Student Support Act 2011 does not provide for withholding of the payment of a student grant on foot of non-payment of the household charge*."

The SSA 2011 always does not state that bananas have to be yellow but that doesn't make it so. The fact that the act does not provide for it does not matter, it does not specifically exclude any link between the two, it is totally silent on the household charge.

I think if you're looking to get money from the State, then you should pay the taxes that the State requires you to pay.


----------



## truthseeker (19 Sep 2012)

dereko1969 said:


> The SSA 2011 always does not state that bananas have to be yellow but that doesn't make it so. *The fact that the act does not provide for it does not matter, it does not specifically exclude any link between the two,* it is totally silent on the household charge.



Ah now, thats starting to sound suspiciously spin doctory - is that you Phil?



dereko1969 said:


> I think if you're looking to get money from the State, then you should pay the taxes that the State requires you to pay.



I agree, which is why its unfair to penalise students on the actions of their parents 

Irrelevant now anyway, Clare CC have admitted they were wrong.


----------



## dereko1969 (19 Sep 2012)

truthseeker said:


> Ah now, thats starting to sound suspiciously spin doctory -* is that you Phil?*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
No, not Phil. The students aren't being penalised, their parents who are paying for them are and other taxpayers are being penalised by people who didn't bother paying the household charge.

My point wasn't spin-doctory it was contradicting your quote from the Journal which implied that because the Act didn't allow for any link between the grant and the household charge that ipso facto they couldn't make payment of the grant conditional on payment of the household charge which is blatantly untrue.

I think Clare did the right thing initially and have now made the wrong decision.


----------



## truthseeker (19 Sep 2012)

dereko1969 said:


> My point wasn't spin-doctory it was contradicting your quote from the Journal which implied that because the Act didn't allow for any link between the grant and the household charge that ipso facto they couldn't make payment of the grant conditional on payment of the household charge which is blatantly untrue.



It was actually The Department of Education who made the statement that the Act didnt allow for grants to be conditional on payment of the HC.



dereko1969 said:


> I think Clare did the right thing initially and have now made the wrong decision.



If by right thing you mean unlawful thing and by wrong decision you mean abiding by legislation - then yeah


----------



## truthseeker (19 Sep 2012)

Link



> Council abandons household charge-student grant link ‘on legal advice’


----------



## Time (19 Sep 2012)

All it would have taken was for 1 student to take judicial review proceedings.


----------



## Leper (19 Sep 2012)

It the same people who pay for nearly everything in this country.Then there are those who pay for nothing and claim every government help available.  I'm with Clare County Council and hope other county councils will follow suit and fast.


----------



## blueband (19 Sep 2012)

Leper said:


> It the same people who pay for nearly everything in this country.Then there are those who pay for nothing and claim every government help available. I'm with Clare County Council and hope other county councils will follow suit and fast.


i think you should read post 50 by 'truthseeker'


----------



## Bronte (20 Sep 2012)

MrMan said:


> €2500 to cover weekends away, nights out,


 
Well poor students, how about not having nights out or weekends away, as many students who don't get grants have to do.

I can remember when the grants arrived to students accounts, generally late, well plenty of the students were well able to spend said grant in the bar for about a week or two. In every 3rd level city or town in Ireland the spending in the pubs goes up massiviely when the grants come in. I actually know people who spent the whole grant in that short period of time. It was obvious to me that many who got it were managing the system, or rather their parents were. 

In relation to Clare co. co. What a brillant idea. And it would be a great idea that anyone who receives state money should show they are tax compliant and have all other state bills paid before they receive any taxpayers money. This developement has made me feel a lot happier as I've paid it.


----------



## T McGibney (20 Sep 2012)

Bronte said:


> This developement has made me feel a lot happier as I've paid it.



Err..,sorry to have to break the news...



truthseeker said:


> Link
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


----------



## Bronte (20 Sep 2012)

Nope not bad news, now they've got the idea, no doubt it will come to pass in some government legislations.  They're getting very creative on penalties, which are working and no doubt this Co. Clare innitiative will have made a few more people pay, or start to think about it, and discuss it in the pubs this weekend.


----------



## T McGibney (20 Sep 2012)

Bronte said:


> They're getting very creative on penalties, which are working



Of course no chance of them getting creative in reforming the system, saving money, balancing budgets etc


----------



## MrMan (20 Sep 2012)

Bronte said:


> Well poor students, how about not having nights out or weekends away, as many students who don't get grants have to do.
> 
> I can remember when the grants arrived to students accounts, generally late, well plenty of the students were well able to spend said grant in the bar for about a week or two. In every 3rd level city or town in Ireland the spending in the pubs goes up massiviely when the grants come in. I actually know people who spent the whole grant in that short period of time. It was obvious to me that many who got it were managing the system, or rather their parents were.
> 
> In relation to Clare co. co. What a brillant idea. And it would be a great idea that anyone who receives state money should show they are tax compliant and have all other state bills paid before they receive any taxpayers money. This developement has made me feel a lot happier as I've paid it.



I was making the point that €2500 wasn't some luxury for students to have weekends away and nights out, they also had other costs, such as accommodation, ot travel. books etc. When you break it down to €69 per week you would do well to enjoy the live that some are suggesting is the norm for grant receivers.


----------



## truthseeker (20 Sep 2012)

Bronte said:


> Nope not bad news, now they've got the idea, no doubt it will come to pass in some government legislations.  They're getting very creative on penalties, which are working and no doubt this Co. Clare innitiative will have made a few more people pay, or start to think about it, and discuss it in the pubs this weekend.



Im totally shocked that anyone with any degree of intelligence thinks that its a good idea to endorse a method of bullying and extortion to get a paltry sum of taxes from someone. There is a good reason that we have due process. It is to prevent the types of situations that exist in corrupt countries where men with guns in government offices arbitrarily insist that an individual has to hand over a sum of money, his watch, his boots or whatever else in order to get his passport stamped, his application for something approved etc...

Agreeing that a local county council can arbitrarily decide to change the established rules of entitlement to a grant cheque is a step backwards in democracy. Its irrelevant whether or not you a agree with the HC, there is a bigger picture.


----------



## Bronte (21 Sep 2012)

I don't know what's with all the vitriol I didn't introduce this tax.  The Irish people voted in FF and let the good times role with no thought as to tomorrow, now FG/Lab have to sort out the mess and Ireland is spending more than it earns so this 100 Euro is nothing as to what is coming.  If cuts are not allowed to be made to spending then taxpayers will be forced to pay more.  It's inevitable.  

Truthseeker, whatever about Clare Co. Co.  now Revenue are going to be in charge of it and they are far nastier.  

Just for the record I don't think anyone who cannot afford it should have to pay it.  People that I personally know who haven't paid the charge can afford it and it's me who has paid it who has now got 2 reminders with apparently a 3rd one on the way..  Naturally I got the reminder because I'm on the NPPR lists because I paid that too.  

And I don't see why people who get money from taxpayers shouldn't have to be tax complaint.  That only benefits all of society.  In Sweden tax returns are public documents and why not.  

Negative equity is only a red herring and has nothing to do with ability to pay.


----------



## truthseeker (21 Sep 2012)

Bronte said:


> Truthseeker, whatever about Clare Co. Co.  now Revenue are going to be in charge of it and they are far nastier.



Its not about being nasty, its about acting within the rules set out in legislation. Acting lawfully.



Bronte said:


> And I don't see why people who get money from taxpayers shouldn't have to be tax complaint.



Either do I. There are a number of different issues clouding the discussion. But setting aside any personal feelings about the HC, it is unethical and unlawful to suddenly change the rules regarding entitlement to grants - which is what Clare CC did. We have due process and seperation of powers and these are good things and in place for a reason. While it may a good idea to have to produce evidence of tax compliance to qualify for some kind of state payment, it cannot just be ham fistedly implemented in an unlawful manner, which is what they tried (and thankfully failed because it would set a horribly undemocratic precedent) to do.


----------

