# LPT: Cranky old guy writes letter to Revenue LPT as reported by the journal.ie



## DerKaiser (10 Apr 2013)

Interesting article, particularly the comments:
http://www.thejournal.ie/pensioner-property-tax-letter-angry-864273-Apr2013/?com_ord=thumbs#comments

Any thoughts?

The most striking observation for me is that one comment points out _"The guy is threatening violence. Disgraceful."_ This comment receives over five hundred dislikes. I feel slightly worried by the whole reaction. The public seem very tolerant of threatening language so long as it is anti-establishment. 

How acceptable is it for some junior staff member in revenue to open up a letter like this saying _"I have nothing more to give except my life but before I give that up I will take as many of you *******s with me as I can"_. Try saying that in a US airport and see what happens next!

At the other end of the spectrum is the misty eyed _"His generation paid for the the railway lines, the water system and that’s just for starters.He paid 60 pence in the pound to the state, building a state to be proud of. The mismanagement of his legacy disgusts me. Everything they slaved for is gone, and for what?"_ garnering over three hundred likes. There is a strong element of naivety here in that people are quickly willing to take the side of someone they know nothing about. No references needed, all that's required is some gripe with the establishment.


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## Purple (11 Apr 2013)

I agree with you.
The man is unreasonable and sounds unbalanced.


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## dereko1969 (11 Apr 2013)

It's the journal, populated by morons.


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## blueband (11 Apr 2013)

DerKaiser said:


> Interesting article, particularly the comments:
> http://www.thejournal.ie/pensioner-property-tax-letter-angry-864273-Apr2013/?com_ord=thumbs#comments
> 
> 
> ...


 
his generation did...simple as


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## Purple (11 Apr 2013)

blueband said:


> his generation did...simple as



Rubbish!
They elected incompetent politicians on the basis of parish-pump self interest and were the driving force behind a country which stagnated for decades. Their economic, fiscal and managerial incompetence gave us a grossly inefficient state infrastructure, a shoddy banking sector, a bloated public sector (relative to our size and demographic needs) and pro-cyclical economic oversight that led to economic collapse and the biggest property crash in history. The people who are now in their 70’s and 80’s are the people who were at the helm when this country was run onto the rocks between the mid 90’s and 00’s. They are the authors of our destruction. The book stops with them.
They didn’t build this country, they wrecked it.

The current generation of leaders isn’t much better.

I look at the teenaged kids I know and they are far better than what’s gone before. They will do a far better job than my generation of the one ahead of me that’s at the helm now. 
The “grumpy old men” should be apologising to the under 20’s, not bleating on about all they’ve done.


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## blueband (11 Apr 2013)

i was'nt talking about our politcal leaders, i was talking about people who worked all their lives ,paid huge amounts of tax , had to fight hard for everything and who are pensioners now.


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## Purple (11 Apr 2013)

blueband said:


> i was'nt talking about our politcal leaders, i was talking about people who worked all their lives ,paid huge amounts of tax , had to fight hard for everything and who are pensioners now.



They are the people who elected the leaders and were too stupid/ ignorant/ blinded by civil war politics/ corrupt/ unethical etc to use their vote to elect competent and/or honest politicians.
The black economy was never stronger than in the 80's and corruption was rife throughout all facits of society.
This is the generaltion that ignored and covered up clerical sex abuse.
This is the generation that thought homosexuality should be a crime.
This is the generation that forbad divorce.


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## blueband (11 Apr 2013)

compaired to what? ....the honest ethical competent politicians we elect today!! dont make laugh. pensinors had to fight tooth and nail for everthing...something this generation has nether the courage or backbone to do.   they still put us to shame!


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## DerKaiser (11 Apr 2013)

blueband said:


> pensinors had to fight tooth and nail for everthing...something this generation has nether the courage or backbone to do. they still put us to shame!


 
Elaborate please!


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## Purple (11 Apr 2013)

DerKaiser said:


> Elaborate please!




Here you go


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## T McGibney (11 Apr 2013)

blueband said:


> compaired to what? ....the honest ethical competent politicians we elect today!! dont make laugh.



Believe it or not, the standard of Irish politicians has improved in every respect since the 1980s. Today's politicians, at all levels, are subject to a level of public and media scrutiny that their 1980s counterparts wouldn't have imagined in their worst nightmares.


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## mf1 (11 Apr 2013)

Purple said:


> Here you go



Made my day. 

mf


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## Purple (11 Apr 2013)

mf1 said:


> Made my day.
> 
> mf



Thanks!


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## blueband (11 Apr 2013)

monty python,     guess that says it all so!


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## Purple (11 Apr 2013)

blueband said:


> monty python,     guess that says it all so!


Can I take it that you now agree with me so?


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## blueband (11 Apr 2013)

after all the effort you went to find that clip, what choise do i have!


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## Purple (12 Apr 2013)

blueband said:


> after all the effort you went to find that clip, what choise do i have!



Monty Python is indeed a soothing balm in these troubled times.


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## werner (29 Apr 2013)

sahd said:


> The letter - I am fairly sure - is fake. It is just a made up letter produced by the anti property tax people to gain publicity . (It worked) . Attck the TAx are probably behind it.


 

On the contrary, the man is a patriot!
http://www.thejournal.ie/billy-clea...ioner-866417-Apr2013/?utm_source=twitter_self


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## Purple (1 May 2013)

werner said:


> On the contrary, the man is a patriot!


I wouldn't call him that.


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## Complainer (6 May 2013)

blueband said:


> i was'nt talking about our politcal leaders, i was talking about people who worked all their lives ,paid huge amounts of tax , had to fight hard for everything and who are pensioners now.



You mean the same people who benefited hugely from the property boom which largely resulted in large transfers of wealth from the younger generation to the older generation? The same people who's children will be repaying their mortgages into their 60s and 70s, compared to their own generation who finished their mortgages in their 50s. The same people who know that their own children, while having comparable jobs and probably having both partners working will have little hope of owning a decent home in a decent location within a decent lifetime?


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## blueband (6 May 2013)

Complainer said:


> You mean the same people who benefited hugely from the property boom which largely resulted in large transfers of wealth from the younger generation to the older generation? The same people who's children will be repaying their mortgages into their 60s and 70s, compared to their own generation who finished their mortgages in their 50s. The same people who know that their own children, while having comparable jobs and probably having both partners working will have little hope of owning a decent home in a decent location within a decent lifetime?


is that actually a question or are you just ranting off becuse you have a chip on your shoulder!


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## T McGibney (7 May 2013)

blueband said:


> is that actually a question or are you just ranting off becuse you have a chip on your shoulder!



Not a question, merely a retort, but a valuable one.


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## Purple (7 May 2013)

T McGibney said:


> Not a question, merely a retort, but a valuable one.



+1, another excellent post from The Complainer.


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## blueband (7 May 2013)

maybe the clue is in his username, however every generation tends to blame the one that came before it for every ill that comes its way! i have no doubht that children born today will in years to come blame us for the property bubble, bank collapse,selling out our independents to germany ect...blah blah.
at the end of the the day we are all born into a time slot in history and we make th most of our lot good or bad. blameing  the old age pensioners is not just silly but  it archives noting.


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## Purple (7 May 2013)

blueband said:


> maybe the clue is in his username, however every generation tends to blame the one that came before it for every ill that comes its way! i have no doubht that children born today will in years to come blame us for the property bubble, bank collapse,selling out our independents to germany ect...blah blah.
> at the end of the the day we are all born into a time slot in history and we make th most of our lot good or bad. blameing  the old age pensioners is not just silly but  it archives noting.


Nobody's blaming them, they are just pointing out that they didn't "build this country" and that misty-eyed rubbish about generations that have gone before is just that; rubbish.


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## blueband (7 May 2013)

ok purple you win....................just promise you wont do any more of monty python stuff!!


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## Purple (8 May 2013)

blueband said:


> ok purple you win....................just promise you wont do any more of monty python stuff!!



No promises!


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## Bronte (8 May 2013)

Complainer said:


> The same people who's children will be repaying their mortgages into their 60s and 70s, compared to their own generation who finished their mortgages in their 50s.


 
I'm not at all sure about what you posted. There are plenty of people in their 50's who remortgage to fund lifesyle or to take out 'equity' and still have debt, they also remortgaged and gave money to their kids to get them on the property ladder, or gave personal guarantees, all things that fueled the in a big way the property pyramid scheme. 

And people who will now have to pay mortgages into their 60's and 70's. As far as I can tell young people were falling over themselves to get 40 year mortgages and quite often on here people come on looking for mortgages of 35 years etc. In any case we're all living longer and will be working longer so presumably it will become the norm to have a mortgage into one's 60's.


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## dereko1969 (8 May 2013)

Complainer has it exactly right, the boom was a shift in "wealth" from the older sectors of society to the younger. It was also based solely on greed, no-one stopped (or very few) to think of the impacts of over-charging for finite resources and where that would end up. They were all mé-feiners and when the music stopped we ended up with thousands of people living in places they never wanted to live because they thought the music would never stop.

By the way, a meeting of my neighbours (which unfortunately I couldn't attend) has decided to come up with, it seems to me, totally spurious valuations for the LPT. The vast majority are putting their houses in bands 3, 4 & 5 which I find ludicrous, they seem to have totally ignored the majority of sales prices in the estate over the past 3 years which were in bands 6 and 7. Whatever about 5, those valuing them at 3 and 4 are deluded or have not made any improvements to the houses since they were built in the 1940s. This is in Dalkey.


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## Purple (8 May 2013)

dereko1969 said:


> Complainer has it exactly right, the boom was a shift in "wealth" from the older sectors of society to the younger. It was also based solely on greed, no-one stopped (or very few) to think of the impacts of over-charging for finite resources and where that would end up. They were all mé-feiners and when the music stopped we ended up with thousands of people living in places they never wanted to live because they thought the music would never stop.


It's a bit simplistic to say it was all based on greed. If you put your house up for sale will you not sell it to the highest bidder? If yes then does that mean you're greedy?
Wage increases and low interest rates caused the housing bubble, not greed. 

As a general rule prices are set by income, not the other way around.


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## Purple (8 May 2013)

dereko1969 said:


> By the way, a meeting of my neighbours (which unfortunately I couldn't attend) has decided to come up with, it seems to me, totally spurious valuations for the LPT. The vast majority are putting their houses in bands 3, 4 & 5 which I find ludicrous, they seem to have totally ignored the majority of sales prices in the estate over the past 3 years which were in bands 6 and 7. Whatever about 5, those valuing them at 3 and 4 are deluded or have not made any improvements to the houses since they were built in the 1940s. This is in Dalkey.


In a good Labour Party heartland like Dalkey you should be ok. Revenue will just gauge the sale of smoked salmon to see how hard the locals are being hit.


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## T McGibney (8 May 2013)

Purple said:


> It's a bit simplistic to say it was all based on greed. If you put your house up for sale will you not sell it to the highest bidder? If yes then does that mean you're greedy?
> Wage increases and low interest rates caused the housing bubble, not greed.
> 
> As a general rule prices are set by income, not the other way around.



My own recollection was that the housing bubble was all based on greed. People rejoiced in the fact that their properties were achieving ransom values without considering for a second the burden that they were lumping onto the younger generation, including ironically in many cases their own children.

The house price bubble pre-dated and fed the wage increases, not the other way round. Benchmarking for example was a reaction to (largely valid) claims that teachers, Gardai and nurses could no longer afford to buy homes in Irish cities.


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## Purple (8 May 2013)

T McGibney said:


> My own recollection was that the housing bubble was all based on greed. People rejoiced in the fact that their properties were achieving ransom values without considering for a second the burden that they were lumping onto the younger generation, including ironically in many cases their own children.
> 
> The house price bubble pre-dated and fed the wage increases, not the other way round. Benchmarking for example was a reaction to (largely valid) claims that teachers, Gardai and nurses could no longer afford to buy homes in Irish cities.




Benchmarking wasn't the start of the pay increases and increases weren't confined to the Public Sector (though in across the two sectors they were highest) but it was joining the Euro on the 1st of January 1999 and the corresponding drop in interest rates that started the ball rolling.

Nobody considers the broader societal impact of looking for the best price they can get when selling their house. In many cased they were trading up so lower prices would have been better. I don't consider that greed. 
Buying lots of apartments in the hope of flipping them within a few years, that was greed.


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## dereko1969 (9 May 2013)

Of course it's simplistic, this is letting off steam!

By greed I also meant to imply narrow self-interest. No one thought (or cared) that the price they were getting for their house would have a domino effect on those below them.

It's hilarious to think that Bertie once made a big point about telling us his bedtime reading was "bowling alone" when his policies helped fuel social isolation and a feeling of feck everyone else I'm after making a mint on my two-up two-down in Stonybatter.


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## Bronte (10 May 2013)

dereko1969 said:


> By the way, a meeting of my neighbours (which unfortunately I couldn't attend) has decided to come up with, it seems to me, totally spurious valuations for the LPT. The vast majority are putting their houses in bands 3, 4 & 5 which I find ludicrous, they seem to have totally ignored the majority of sales prices in the estate over the past 3 years which were in bands 6 and 7. Whatever about 5, those valuing them at 3 and 4 are deluded or have not made any improvements to the houses since they were built in the 1940s. This is in Dalkey.


 
Well your neighbours are idiots for sure. We'll be having them on here on AAM in about 4 years when revenue are chasing them for penalties and interest. Save now and repent at leisure. They are tax cheats plain and simple.  Maybe someone should point that out to them.


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## Bronte (10 May 2013)

T McGibney said:


> without considering for a second the burden that they were lumping onto the younger generation, including ironically in many cases their own children.
> 
> .


 
So will it then be better for the grandchildren, you can buy property now at a lot less than build cost?


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## T McGibney (10 May 2013)

Bronte said:


> So will it then be better for the grandchildren, you can buy property now at a lot less than build cost?



Not if they're lumped with also having to pay their parents' 30/40/70/90 year mortgages.


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## dereko1969 (14 May 2013)

Complainer said:


> You mean the same people who benefited hugely from the property boom which largely resulted in large transfers of wealth from the younger generation to the older generation? The same people who's children will be repaying their mortgages into their 60s and 70s, compared to their own generation who finished their mortgages in their 50s. The same people who know that their own children, while having comparable jobs and probably having both partners working will have little hope of owning a decent home in a decent location within a decent lifetime?


 
Complainer's point born out by ESRI report stating that the under 45s are bearing the brunt of the crash.

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/...ally-harder-by-recession-esri-finds-1.1392283

But don't dare touch the medical card for the elderly many of whom have very decent pensions and no mortgages - but hey, they vote.


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## blueband (14 May 2013)

dereko1969 said:


> Complainer's point born out by ESRI report stating that the under 45s are bearing the brunt of the crash.
> 
> http://www.irishtimes.com/business/...ally-harder-by-recession-esri-finds-1.1392283
> 
> But don't dare touch the medical card for the elderly many of whom have very decent pensions and no mortgages - but hey, they vote.


 
well lets hope you have a decent pension sorted out when you become one of  these 'dreaded elderly'.... just in case some young upstart might want to take your medical card away!


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