# My first tenants/Social Welfare fraud



## Blueberry08 (15 Feb 2008)

Still can't get over this....due to family circumstances I've had to move and rent out my own home, even though I never _ever_ wanted to be a landlord.

So, I do everything by the book, ring revenue, get guidance on what forms I'm meant to fill in, etc, etc.

The estate agent finds me tenants - a young husband and wife and two young children. Perfect.

Their rent, E1100 a month, is being paid by Social Welfare. No problems with that, although a bit puzzled as to why neither of them works when they're both able-bodied, etc, etc. In fact the husband said to me laughing "I must get a job some time", like he never intended looking for one.

Then they phone me up and ask me to drop over to them, they wanted to talk to me about something, but not over the phone.

I go over and they ask me to sign a "fake" contract showing they pay me E1200 a month, so they can get an extra E100 from Social Welfare.



I sat puzzled for a minute, trying to figure out how

(a) they had the neck to ask me, a complete stranger, to help them defraud Social Welfare, putting myself at risk in the process

and

(b) why would they think that I would want to pay tax on E1200-a-month when I'm only getting E1100?

Bizarre stuff. I said "err, no".

Am I a naive in the extreme to be gobsmacked by this? (Be gentle with your reply).

And am I missing something blindingly obvious when I reckon that the solution to such fraud (or attempts at committing it) is for Social Welfare to pay the landlord directly, rather than giving the rent money to the tenant(s)?


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## Welfarite (15 Feb 2008)

I'm not too sure but I think that the Rent Supplement can be paid directly into your account. By the way, it is not SW that pays RS, but rather via the Community Welfare Officer at the local Health Centre. Perhaps a chat with them might help get you clear on things? 

And you are naive to be gobsmacked! Welcome to the welfare world!


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## sam h (15 Feb 2008)

We had an almost identical situation but the person was just viewing the house.  She was VERY pushy to get me to sign forms which were for higher than the rent (this would mean she doesn't have to make up the shortfall between the rent allaowance & the rent) yet she did not want to give me a deposit...."just sign my forms, we'll think about taking the place".  When I said there would be a difference between the forms and what I declared to revenue, she laughted at the idea of me declaring the income!  Needless to say, I signed nothing.

I contacted someone quite senior to do with RA as I thought this would be an area they would be interested in, but he said they knew it went on but nothing really they could do !  Incredible.


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## Welfarite (15 Feb 2008)

sam h said:


> We had an almost identical situation but the person was just viewing the house. She was VERY pushy to get me to sign forms which were for higher than the rent (this would mean she doesn't have to make up the shortfall between the rent allaowance & the rent) yet she did not want to give me a deposit...."just sign my forms, we'll think about taking the place". When I said there would be a difference between the forms and what I declared to revenue, she laughed at the idea of me declaring the income! Needless to say, I signed nothing.


 
If you had signed, she would not have taken the house but would have been able to claim RA on it using that document! You probably were not the only one approached like that. 



sam h said:


> I contacted someone quite senior to do with RA as I thought this would be an area they would be interested in, but he said they knew it went on but nothing really they could do ! Incredible.


 
Did you give them the woman's name and details? It is quite easy to followup complaints of attempted fraud (and it is done) when there is sufficient evidence to trace the person involved and have the matter investigated.


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## csirl (15 Feb 2008)

> When I said there would be a difference between the forms and what I declared to revenue,


 
You spotted the big danger here. Whoever does sign the forms will probably be facing a tax bill from Revenue at some stage in the future when the rent paid by SW is cross referenced with what they declared by the Revenue profiling computer. May take a few years as Revenue tends to do these things in large batches ala Ansbacher, but almost 100% guarantee it will happen. 

You cant really say that the difference is because the renter was engaging in SW fraud because you were part of the fraud - you signed the forms. So you'd be facing the hobsons choice of Revenue fraud charges or SW fraud charges. 

In case some posters are wondering about the legality of information exchange between SW and Revenue - it is allowed in certain circumstances, as income and SW payments are linked to one another & both are recorded against PPS number. My sources tell me that they could get even more integrated in the future as refundable tax credits come more into vogue - there are even high level discussions about there being an income payments/collection agency rather than separate SW & Revenue - sort of a merger between Collector General and the Benefit Payments part of SW.


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## kellysayers (15 Feb 2008)

Whats to stop the tenant forging your name?


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## Bronte (15 Feb 2008)

I've had social welfare tenants, when they left what's to stop them continuing to pretend they are still renting from me.   The health board do not write periodically to check with me that the tenant is still there, all you do is sign the form at the beginning of the tenancy.  I'm sure this happens.  Tenants could claim to revenue and social welfare that they were in fact actually there when they were not.  Nowadays it's less likely to arise as most tenancies are registered with the PRTB and you can show a new tenant arrived on a certain date.  I'm sure the revenue will eventually cross check the PRTB registration which will be a far easier way for them to see exactly who rented what to whom and when.


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## cmalone (15 Feb 2008)

Had total opposite with my tenants for an apartment. The rent was too high for their Community Welfare Office (HSE) and she told them to move elsewhere- Unfortunately, i was not in a position to lower rent as it was similar across the block. In any case, I had to sign the forms stating a lower rent- and they tenants paid me the additional. It all worked out- never easy finding nices tenants- But some/ if not most of rent supplement tenants are great-


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## ajapale (15 Feb 2008)

Moved from  Welfare and State Benefits to  Property Investment forum. Which is where landlord related issues are discussed

aj
(moderator)


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## gipimann (15 Feb 2008)

Just a few comments on the previous posts.

Bronte:
Review forms are issued to tenants on a regular basis - it can vary from 3-monthly to 12-monthly depending on how long the tenant has been renting (and how risky the CWO considers the tenant).   The forms must be completed by the Landlord, failure to return the forms leads to suspension of payment of Rent Supplement.   The CWO may also visit the premises at any time (again, can vary from area to area) to confirm residency.

cmalone:
Signing the Rent Supplement application form declaring a lower rent than that being charged is considered an offence.   This topic was discussed somewhere else on AAM (think it might have been in the Welfare Benefits thread).


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## Bronte (18 Feb 2008)

Gipiman - Well I've never had to sign a review form and my tenant has been there a lot longer than 12 months and prior to that was not on social welfare.


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## sam h (18 Feb 2008)

> Did you give them the woman's name and details?



I had a mobile & first name, but he was not interested....it was a very senior guy I spoke to. 



> Gipiman - Well I've never had to sign a review form and my tenant has been there a lot longer than 12 months



The norm is to check up fairly regularly....if all is going ok it's normally about 12/18 months, but one tenant went on hols for 7 weeks & couldn't understand why they SW wanted to get her form signed every 3 months!


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## gipimann (18 Feb 2008)

Bronte said:


> Gipiman - Well I've never had to sign a review form and my tenant has been there a lot longer than 12 months and prior to that was not on social welfare.


 
As your tenant has been at your property long-term the CWO may consider them low-risk so doesn't request frequent review forms......either that or the tenant is completing it themselves?!


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## Bronte (18 Feb 2008)

Gipimann, spot on, long term, low risk and low rent.  Probably known by CWO personally.  Also tenant is way too honest to complete the form themself.


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## loll (18 Feb 2008)

i have tennants who get welfare, it drives me mad that the rent cheques are made payable to themselves. i then seem to be chasing them for rent, i have since learned that this particular tennant has her partner living with her and i have never been asked to sign any forms for the CWO. are they forging my signature???


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## gipimann (18 Feb 2008)

If you have any concerns regarding the possibility of forgery, you should contact the CWO who is dealing with the Rent Supplement claim (if you can't contact him/her, contact the Superintendent CWO for the area).   

Rent Supplement payments are paid directly to tenants because it is the tenant who is the claimant - many (though not all) CWOs may facilitate the tenant by paying directly to landlord by cheque or EFT bank transfer.    In the past, paying landlords directly has led to assumptions by some landlords that they have a  contract with the HSE/DSFA - which they do not.   This is why not all areas will pay the rent directly to the landlord.


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