# One in the eye for RBS



## DrMoriarty (13 Feb 2007)

Bailiffs raid Royal Bank of Scotland


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## HelloJed (13 Feb 2007)

Nice one.

http://www.bankchargeshell.co.uk/

Does anyone know if you can do the same in Ireland?


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## Vanilla (13 Feb 2007)

Yes, you can. Here it's the sheriffs who go calling for goods.


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## HelloJed (13 Feb 2007)

Sorry, I meant do we have a precedent here where Irish people can claim back bank charges, like they can in the UK.

As far as I know, the banks can claim a profit on bank charges in the UK but it's a grey area of the law - so people can get these charges back from the banks if they challenge them.


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## ClubMan (13 Feb 2007)

If you have a problem with suspected unauthorised charges/overcharging (as opposed to clearly displayed charges that you just think are too high) then complain to the financial institution in the first instance and if you don't get any satisfaction contact the [broken link removed].


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## Vanilla (13 Feb 2007)

If bank charges were clearly outlined to you then you have no recourse. What happened in this country in the 80s was that banks started to charge very high charges for customers who went into arrears- and sometimes those charges were taken without the customers prior knowledge and therefore consent. There was a prime time expose a while back about it where the banks were even applying higher than stated interest rates and referral charges. If that happened, you would of course have a case. I've seen a few cases taken against banks- usually where people have enlisted the help of forensic accountants to check back through their bank records and the only ones I've seen have settled out of court - not in the banks favour. So it all depends on the circumstances.


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## Purple (13 Feb 2007)

If I remember correctly the Banks (AIB?) were not just applying charges without their customer’s prior knowledge, they were retyping their statements in the branches. What ever happened about that? Who went to prison?


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## auto320 (13 Feb 2007)

We don't have a prison for white collar criminals yet.


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## Megan (14 Feb 2007)

auto320 said:


> We don't have a prison for white collar criminals yet.


Then why don't we build one and call it The White House


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## MOB (14 Feb 2007)

"If bank charges were clearly outlined to you then you have no recourse."

Hi Vanilla;

I agree that this is what should be the case.  But in the foreign exchange "overcharging scandal" which AIB had a little while ago, the bank had clearly outlined the charges to the customer on each and every transaction, they had just overlooked notifying these charges to the regulatory authorities and getting consent to the charges (a formality in the context of these charges).  I thought at the time that the bank should have come out fighting but - no doubt on the advice of highly paid PR people, and spooked by the thought of having Charlie Bird doorstep them (who wouldn't be spooked at the prosepect?)- they effectively surrendered to the "overcharging" accusation.


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## Purple (14 Feb 2007)

MOB said:


> "If bank charges were clearly outlined to you then you have no recourse."
> 
> Hi Vanilla;
> 
> I agree that this is what should be the case.  But in the foreign exchange "overcharging scandal" which AIB had a little while ago, the bank had clearly outlined the charges to the customer on each and every transaction, they had just overlooked notifying these charges to the regulatory authorities and getting consent to the charges (a formality in the context of these charges).  I thought at the time that the bank should have come out fighting but - no doubt on the advice of highly paid PR people, and spooked by the thought of having Charlie Bird doorstep them (who wouldn't be spooked at the prosepect?)- they effectively surrendered to the "overcharging" accusation.


I was talking about the practice of re-typing bank statements to add bogus charges.
Maybe it was because this incident disappeared off the radar that AIB said very little about what was essentially a clerical error.


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## MugsGame (14 Feb 2007)

> If bank charges were clearly outlined to you then you have no recourse.


The current cases against UK banks (including RBS) are not about overcharging or unauthorised charges. Customers are challenging penalty fees imposed for breaching the operating terms and conditions of their accounts.

Customers claim the penalty fees are excessive and do not reflect the actual costs incurred by the bank in handling the breach of the terms and conditions. Seemingly UK contract law requires pre-agreed penalties to be no more than the actual damage done. Does this standard also apply in Ireland?


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## CCOVICH (14 Feb 2007)

MugsGame said:


> The current cases against UK banks (including RBS) are not about overcharging or unauthorised charges. Customers are challenging penalty fees imposed for breaching the operating terms and conditions of their accounts.
> 
> Customers claim the penalty fees are excessive and do not reflect the actual costs incurred by the bank in handling the breach of the terms and conditions. Seemingly UK contract law requires pre-agreed penalties to be no more than the actual damage done. Does this standard also apply in Ireland?



I don't think so.  I seem to remember a previous thread on the topic, but it was some time ago, or maybe I saw it somewhere else.


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## HelloJed (16 Feb 2007)

MugsGame said:


> The current cases against UK banks (including RBS) are not about overcharging or unauthorised charges. Customers are challenging penalty fees imposed for breaching the operating terms and conditions of their accounts.
> 
> Customers claim the penalty fees are excessive and do not reflect the actual costs incurred by the bank in handling the breach of the terms and conditions. Seemingly UK contract law requires pre-agreed penalties to be no more than the actual damage done. Does this standard also apply in Ireland?



MugsGame, you put it better than I did! Does anyone know if this is the case? (For the record, I haven't been charged any penalty fees but if there is a legal precendent here, people should be aware of it IMHO!)


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## HelloJed (20 Feb 2007)

*       Customers see red over the scandal of illegal charges*


[broken link removed]


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## RainyDay (4 Mar 2007)

Purple said:


> If I remember correctly the Banks (AIB?) were not just applying charges without their customer’s prior knowledge, they were retyping their statements in the branches. What ever happened about that? Who went to prison?



I'm pretty sure it was NIB that were doing the retyping, and were outed by Charlie Bird & George Lee.


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## Humpback (15 Jul 2007)

MugsGame said:


> Customers claim the penalty fees are excessive and do not reflect the actual costs incurred by the bank in handling the breach of the terms and conditions. Seemingly UK contract law requires pre-agreed penalties to be no more than the actual damage done. Does this standard also apply in Ireland?


 
I've been trying to find this out as well. As far as I can see, there is a similar line in Irish contract law - I can't find my link to it now - but I don't think it's as specific as the UK clause.


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## z109 (15 Jul 2007)

ronan_d_john said:


> I've been trying to find this out as well. As far as I can see, there is a similar line in Irish contract law - I can't find my link to it now - but I don't think it's as specific as the UK clause.



It seems to be a EU directive, which would mean it applies here also? (Or at least could be appealed to Europe?):
Wikipedia_reference

I almost wish I'd been charged, so I could take a small claims case!


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## Purple (16 Jul 2007)

RainyDay said:


> I'm pretty sure it was NIB that were doing the retyping, and were outed by Charlie Bird & George Lee.



Any idea what happened next?


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## RainyDay (16 Jul 2007)

Purple said:


> Any idea what happened next?



The usual 'mea culpa' stuff, and "now we've got new management" stuff, along with repayment programme for affected customers.


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## ClubMan (16 Jul 2007)

I had _NIB _accounts at that time. When they invited customers & former customers to contact them to get their accounts investigated I did so. Never heard anything back.


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## Purple (17 Jul 2007)

RainyDay said:


> The usual 'mea culpa' stuff, and "now we've got new management" stuff, along with repayment programme for affected customers.


But nothing happened to the people in a position of trust in a body that requires a special licence from the state who deliberately and knowingly stole from their customers?
Why am I not surprised?
If it had been a builder from Finglas that defrauded people well that would have been a different story…


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## RainyDay (17 Jul 2007)

Actually, I may not have given the full story - didn't the Director of Corporate Enforcement take action against a gang of directors/senior managers from NIB? I'm not sure this action was relating to the over-charging, or the Clerical-Medical tax fraud, or both?


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## Purple (18 Jul 2007)

RainyDay said:


> Actually, I may not have given the full story - didn't the Director of Corporate Enforcement take action against a gang of directors/senior managers from NIB? I'm not sure this action was relating to the over-charging, or the Clerical-Medical tax fraud, or both?



Good news. Do you know how many of them ended up in prison and for how long? 

The Chinese have executed the former head of their Food and Drug administration for corruption. See here for details. Good job our banker were not up their tricks over there!


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