# What are the consequences for NON EU Nationals who invested heavily in property?



## hope less (26 Jan 2012)

Hi,
I am one of the non nationals (NON EU) bought an expensive property in the boom time. Initial mortgage was EUR 800000/- with monthly repayments around 3800/pm. I was up to date with my payments till April 2011 but since then, I lost my regular business (I am getting part time work now and then since April 2011) and went through the process of downgrading by moving to smaller house and rented my that big house for 2000/pm. I am paying around 1700/pm to bank since then and also paid the rest of the amount as service charges and minor repairs and estate agent's management fees.
Unfortunately, from 1st January 2012, the tenants moved out and I am unable to rent it out till now.
I also have to pay monthly instalment of around 1000/pm on another loan of EUR 200000 overseas.
I am a director of a company with some savings and at the moment I am drawing my monthly salary from that as there is no work for me here but the company accounts are depleting fast.
My question is, that as I am non Irish and although I contributed to almost EUR 700000/- as Tax in last 10 years, but I am finding it impossible to sustain and survive here and then being able to re-pay my mortgage here and debts overseas..
What are my options??
1. Can I declare my self bankrupt here and then move back to my parent country (Non EU)?
2. Can I just hand back the keys of the house to the bank and inform them that I am going back to my country?
3. Should I just pack the bags and fly away?
4. During the bankruptcy procedure or repossession process, do i have to be physically here as practically I may be thousands of miles away?
5. If I declare myself bankrupt, whats going to happen to the savings into the company account as I am one of the directors.
I'll appreciate your advices and opinions as I think time and money is running out for me fast and I want to sort it out in a legal and amicable way.
Thanks


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## hope less (26 Jan 2012)

I just want to add that I am 40, having 2 small school going children and not in receipt of any social welfare or mortgage supplemental income though I am getting Mortgage Interest relief as a family home.


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## Wipetheslate (27 Jan 2012)

Hi hope less , I hope you and your family are well , I am in a similar situation as yourself and I would just like to say to you not to get too despondent, from reading your post I can see that you're a guy who has , like myself , put all your eggs in one basket . 
You should investigate the bankruptcy laws in the UK or even the laws in Ireland at Present and expunge these debts from your families lives . I wish you luck in the future and hope you get back to a debt free life .


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## Bronte (27 Jan 2012)

You can't go bankrupt here yet, not under the current bankruptcy regime anyway unless you have a lot of money, in any case it would not be advisable.

Of course you could just leave and hand back the keys but they will go after you if you are a mark, it might depend on the country you are from though.  You seem to have money in the company account, they are entitled to that.   

You also seem to be living off savings and not making money so you are correct that doesn't make sense.  Eventually your savings will be gone and you will not be able to pay anyone.   

To go about things correctly means you tell the bank you cannot afford to make the repayments and pay them what you can, then they repossess and sell and you are liable for the shortfall, if at that stage you have no assets/savings they may right off the debt but if you have a good job they will go after an instalment order which will leave you with the bare minimum to live on.  

Do you want to leave Ireland, are you happy here?


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## mcloving (27 Jan 2012)

In other words, they will bleed you dry. That is what the irish state will do if you declare bankruptcy here.


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## hope less (27 Jan 2012)

Bronte said:


> You can't go bankrupt here yet, not under the current bankruptcy regime anyway unless you have a lot of money, in any case it would not be advisable.
> 
> Of course you could just leave and hand back the keys but they will go after you if you are a mark, it might depend on the country you are from though.  You seem to have money in the company account, they are entitled to that.
> 
> ...



I am living off on my savings at the moment as the odd jobs I am getting are certainly not enough even to pay for the monthly petrol costs.. 
I was talking to bank few days ago and they told me that I can resume my payments as soon as the house is back on rent but obviously all these amounts are just going to add up.

I have no specific compelling reason to stay here especially when I can see more prospects back home (India).

My main worry is that i do not want to burn all the bridges before I leave as I do have huge irish experience and lot of good business contacts and you never know, if the times change, Ireland may be an attractive option again..But as the days go by, I am seeing the move back to my home inevitable.

I am also considering Bankruptcy in India as you can expect that the major Indian economy is undocumented ans even while bankrupt, I can work and earn without any problems..


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## hope less (27 Jan 2012)

mcloving said:


> In other words, they will bleed you dry. That is what the irish state will do if you declare bankruptcy here.



And that's exactly what I do not want to happen.. I am thinking of withdrawing all my savings and just take One way ticket back home (India) and never look back...I think and hope that it'll be easier for me to deal with the bankruptcy proceedings in India, if Irish Bank decide to pursue me for amount due after selling my house.
I also offered the bank few days ago to sell my house myself and pay them the whole amount (probably around 60% of the mortgage amount) and the rest of the amount may be written off...but unfortunately Bank didn't agree on that and told me that only way they'll allow me to sell it is if i'll accept the rest of the amount as personal loan..


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## 44brendan (27 Jan 2012)

Indian bankruptcy (outside EU) would not apply to assets and liabilities here. 
You have some savings in the company name. how you address these is now broadly up to yourself. However, unless you are withdrawing them for personal use by means of a directors loan repayment or a salary, the withdrawls are liable to tax. If withdrawals are relatively low, you probably would have minimal tax liability. 
Given that you have no real economic ties in this country, you are in a position of strength in negotiating with the Bank. I would approach them on the basis of agreeing to a full reposession of the property on a voluntary basis, provided they agreed to accept this in full & final settlement of the liability. They will probably play hard-ball on his, but if you leave the country there is little else they can do.

I note from your last post that they have refused this. Once you return to India, as I said it then becomes their problem!


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## hope less (27 Jan 2012)

44brendan said:


> Indian bankruptcy (outside EU) would not apply to assets and liabilities here.
> You have some savings in the company name. how you address these is now broadly up to yourself. However, unless you are withdrawing them for personal use by means of a directors loan repayment or a salary, the withdrawls are liable to tax. If withdrawals are relatively low, you probably would have minimal tax liability.
> Given that you have no real economic ties in this country, you are in a position of strength in negotiating with the Bank. I would approach them on the basis of agreeing to a full reposession of the property on a voluntary basis, provided they agreed to accept this in full & final settlement of the liability. They will probably play hard-ball on his, but if you leave the country there is little else they can do.
> 
> I note from your last post that they have refused this. Once you return to India, as I said it then becomes their problem!



Hi 44Brendan. Yes I know of the tax liabilities and though the amounts are small but i have asked my accountant about it and in fact we paid tax over and above our liabilities for year 2011 (P35 is gone) and I am sure that i'll leave with no tax problems what so ever.
Thanks for the suggestion regarding informing the bank of my move back to India but reading by the other posters on AAM, i am of the opinion that if I'll tell the bank of it, they'll simply take me to the court for repossession straight away..


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## elcato (27 Jan 2012)

> Thanks for the suggestion regarding informing the bank of my move back  to India but reading by the other posters on AAM, i am of the opinion  that if I'll tell the bank of it, they'll simply take me to the court  for repossession straight away..


Either move back into the house straight away, you will save rent you are now paying by staying elsewhere or move in a tenant straight away and get cash flow. Banks will not rush out straight down to the courts and get an order. You will have a bit of time to think about this. If you engage with them they are obliged to try to come to an agreement and even if they get you to court relatively quickly, it will be in your favour that you are trying to sort the matter out.


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## 44brendan (27 Jan 2012)

They can't take reposession proceedings unless you are in breach of the loan agreement. Your post doesn't clarify if you have agreed any payment holiday with the Bank. Notwithstanding that, re-posession proceedings should'nt bother you as you offered to give up the premises anyway. They can progress for judgement also, but this will not be of much use to them, as you have no other assets and are leaving the country. It seems a pity that they turned down your offer, but ultimately that will be their loss. They can't touch any money in the company name either, but I'm assuming these funds will be well used up in the short term in financing your return to India. I agree, that there is no benefit in telling them you are leaving the country, unless you feel that this will get them to accept your previous offer.
Best of luck to you and your family. Don't run us down too much in India as we may be looking for support from that emerging economy in the future


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## hope less (27 Jan 2012)

44brendan said:


> They can't take reposession proceedings unless you are in breach of the loan agreement. Your post doesn't clarify if you have agreed any payment holiday with the Bank. Notwithstanding that, re-posession proceedings should'nt bother you as you offered to give up the premises anyway. They can progress for judgement also, but this will not be of much use to them, as you have no other assets and are leaving the country. It seems a pity that they turned down your offer, but ultimately that will be their loss. They can't touch any money in the company name either, but I'm assuming these funds will be well used up in the short term in financing your return to India. I agree, that there is no benefit in telling them you are leaving the country, unless you feel that this will get them to accept your previous offer.
> Best of luck to you and your family. Don't run us down too much in India as we may be looking for support from that emerging economy in the future




Hi 44Brendan, last year, my Bank agreed for the reduced payments for 6 months (extended for another 6 months till end of April 2012) with the agreement that I'll deposit all of my rental income (minus expenses) in to the mortgage account. But the problem is that house is not on rent any more and although i have reduced the rent to 1500/pm and there are few viewings but no luck yet. Bank also advised me Re: help from social welfare Dept but I am not interested in it as if I am planning to leave, whats the point of doing that. I told them that with all my best efforts, i'll sell the house and will deposit every penny of the sale money i'll get into the mortgage account but some how the pen pushers in bank are not getting real (or I am expecting too much !!). My company account is having small amount of savings but i think all those will be spent on my move..I've already surrendered most of my credit/debt cards and have no other outstanding debt to pay thats why, if bank agrees on some kind of arrangement to get rid of the house, i think i do have potential to earn a bit and contribute into the Irish economy..Ahhh.. but i think whole focus of Irish state at the moment seems to be is to how to squeeze even the last drop of blood from the walking dead people and pay Billions to European Bond holders on their "Unsecured" loans......


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