# Tanager mortgage holders



## Open air

Hey distressed mortgage holders!. I am organinsing a meeting of all tanager mortgage holders to meet to discuss a course of action to be taken against them,in regards to there flagrant abuse of mortgage arrears protocols,and there haste to repossess properties even where people are paying there mortgages..We are hoping to have a td in attendance,,and some noted finance commentators from ireland.Please post in thread to notify interest,,dont be ashamed,we have done nothing wrong.


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## vicvol1

Yes. I’m in.


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## Open air

Thanks


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## Browner

Yes I'm in


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## Open air

Had some private messages too,,please spread to word!


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## Poldara

I'm in also.


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## Open air

Thank you


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## Rambo1

I"m in


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## Open air

Great,thank you


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## Open air

So the td is on for a meeting in dublin in september,can we settle on a date,or dates that i can send to him


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## Poldara

Can you put some dates up and then we can see what suits everyone.


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## Rambo1

Who is the TD?


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## Browner

Any word on dates?


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## Open air

Ill have dates up in next few days,venue will be dublin based as it suits td best


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## Browner

Thanks open air, look forward to it.


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## Open air

Looking like the 21st september guys,,,i will definite confirmation by the end of next week.


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## Browner

Looks good for me.


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## Browner

Anyone hearing anything from Tanager?


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## Open air

Not a sausage,,,strangely quiet


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## Poldara

*After paying my mortgage in full for almost 3 years along with extra of the arrears , Tanager are taking me to court in January. Received two piles of paper's  in the post. It will take me a year to read them . Looking forward to our Tanager meeting this month.*


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## Jpatrick

Tanager also taking me to court in January. Also making full payments and addressing arrears. Received it in post last week.


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## Open air

Hopefully our meeting will prove a eye opener for our td


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## Poldara

Hi open air, is it decided yet where the meeting will take place.


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## Prince pig

Hi also received civil bill from Tanager.   Got it in June.   In court December.   Just joined AskAboutMoney today for this reason.  Anxious times ahead.   
Have found them very difficult to deal with but am documenting all proposals I have put to them ( all turned down.)


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## Jpatrick

Hi Prince pig, understand how you feel. It's not right what they are doing and they think it's acceptable. Doesn't look like they are doing deals with anyone.


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## Open air

Another for the group,spread the word


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## Rambo1

Hi Poldara , Prince Pig, JPatrick 

Is this your first court appearance ?

Are Tanager Looking for Possession of the property ?


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## Prince pig

First court appearance.   
Yes.   Looking for repossession of property.   Have alternatively offered discount off settlement figure if can get financed elsewhere.   Not an option for me due to being self employed and having an arrears balance.


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## Jpatrick

Yes first court appearance, they also offered me discount to move mortgage but unable due to arrears. Now want repossession.


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## Browner

Hi Jpatrick,
What type of discount did they offer you?
I heard that they are making offers on the day of court, just wondering what discount.


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## Open air

They offered me a 45k discount on the phone


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## Browner

45k of what value?


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## Open air

192k


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## Prince pig

Just to give my figures without disclosing exact amount on a public website.   Approx balance 600k.  Initial discount of 130k if I can refinance.    Arrears 50k.  
But even if they could give me 300k discount and it's no help to me.  Even pepper turned me down due to arrears.   Paying in full each month plus additional towards the arrears.....they looking for the 50k lump sum and won't negotiate on it and unfortunately I don't have it !


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## Prince pig

Just to add house in good area and now worth what I owe and is family home. So will be trying very hard to keep it despite large repayments ....


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## Open air

Hopefully our meeting will help to build pressure on them


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## Jpatrick

Hi Browner, 50k discontinued offered on mortage of 248k. Offer was by phone call. They advised me to contact Pepper but refused due to arrears.


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## Browner

Looks like there still playing their games. 
Depends on what day it is that they offer you deals it not, once their leading the way. 
You should check they have legal right over the property as this could help you deal with them. Also I'm getting my accounts audited as they may have over charged me. 
Check everything don't take it for granted that their doing things right as they are not.


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## Poldara

My first time in court for January. Was offered 30K discount on 183K mortgage. with 22K in arrears a few months ago. Paying full mortgage for 3 years as well as extra of arrears.  House now 100K in positive equity. Looking into land registry transfer as it is not in order. Would advise you all to do the same. Find out who owned the charge before your mortgage was taken over by this shower.


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## Prince pig

Sorry do you mean you were in court January 2017 or you are in court January 2018 ... and was the discount offered only if you could refinance? 
They won't give me any discount on arrears balance even though I have made a good offer due to generosity of family so as to clear it.   I have no problem making the monthly payments it's the arrears that are choking me.


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## Poldara

I'm in court Jan'18. Only offered discount if I refinance but can't because of arrears. They refused all suggestions I put to them, wouldn't even meet us. The hub is very helpful and will help with advice on the law if representing yourself.


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## Open air

The court appeal over title issue is up in september,these guys are a disgrace.How they have been able to conduct business like this in ireland is astonishing. They have clearly broken and flouted every central bank rule that has been put in front of them


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## Rambo1

Hi All, 

Re first court appearance it will be adjourned, however get your ducks lined up.

1) Request a full copy of the solicitors indemnity insurance, not only do they have to provide you with a copy , they also have to inform their insurance company each/every time a request is made. Imagine if 50/100 requests where made...this is the first shot across their bow.....One of the previous legal companies ceased trading as a result of their handling transfer legality?

2) Request a full copy of all paperwork relating to your account, including original copy of the any contract/ agreement signed by you with Tanager. They will send you out a BOS/ BOSI one as you didn't sign any contract with Tanager nor did you receive any monies from them.

3) On receipt of your full original documentation,
  a) get your account adutited, you may have been overcharged at some point, if overcharged and before you missed your first payment? Possible breach of contract by bank first? And maybe overcharged for months before discovered?
  b) Get legal advice and question legality of property transfer from bosi to bos before midnight as per date in your documentation,? Is if bosi was a legal entity at the time? Number of cases including mine already struck out as Tanager not on title/property register.

4) Re Offer / discount you may have received ? Tanager are making these Token offers for 2 reasons 
 a) to demonstrate to the court their willingness to do a deal????? While at the same time trying to repossess your home they no full well you will not get refinance here in Ireland because of the arrears etc. 
 b) you may have won the lottery or have cash or a family member to help out of fear??????

5) Tanager bought the loan book for an alleged average discount of 58% ? I have read that it was actually between 60- 80% discount. So on that basis make them an offer in WRITING at 80% discount of the principal amount  plus say 5k.....turn the tables.
Of course they will turn it down....make another  offer in WRITING for principal plus 7k...

When they turn it own ! Tell them you want their response in writing...you will need it for your court case. So you will have demonstrated to the court your Bona Fides . m
Making monthly payments
Paying an amount of the alleged arrears
Made. A number of offers ( which tanager will have turned down
Your willingness to continue to work with Tanager for a satisfactory outcome for both parties

And all of this before you make any legal arguments....keep turning the tables back in your favor..
Legality of transfer , possible overcharging, no contract,  no cancellation of contract offered as you signed for the mortgage with a solicitor and not a mortgage advisor, and other points....

Keep paying your monthly amount , get everything in writing...


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## Browner

Well said Rambo


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## Rambo1

Hi open air, in rely to the alledged disgraceful behaviour by the aforementioned vulture fund, they are taking advantage of the legislation introduced by the previous FG government which is now the current FG  government policy which is supported by FF ,,rental act bill 2013...Noonan then welcoming and meeting the vulture funds. 

No current govt minister or any from the previous govt has called for a moratorium on repossessions?  nor has the current or previous minister for justice or even any elected representative ever challenged the judiciary? Even after The Master Of The Circuit courts warned of possible breeches of EUJ Law???? 

So really what is Mr McGrath going to achieve? 

I would suggest it will be us ourselves with the help of aN aggressive and capable solicitor etc to assist us.


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## Poldara

Hi Rambo1; I sent a letter to a political party, I won't mention their name here asking to bring these issues to the Dail including the illegal transfer of deeds to be investigated by the minister for finance. In fairness they did send a list to him and all they got back was the mortgage resolution process  to pass on as well as saying it was the courts who had to deal with these issues and not the government. I replied to them and let them know I would be investigating myself. So I do believe we have to come together ourselves and take them on because it looks like no one else will.


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## Poldara

Hi open air, has a venue been decided yet for meeting next week.


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## Open air

I have a feeling it will be following week,i will be talking to td on monday with help of god


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## Open air

We will meet the td and cross that bridge,if it's helpful or not time will tell.There is nothing stopping us engaging a solicitor or barrister to assist us as well.For all of us to meet in the one place at the one time will be the first step,,,do ye agree?? , any one that is sceptical of the td is entitled to be, i only care about us as a group working together.


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## Open air

Are you a tanager customer blighty?,are what is your background,,,the more hands on deck the better.


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## Poldara

_Hi blighty, That's the way to go. We should all get together and help this person win their appeal._


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## Open air

Teusday 17th october @4pm in leinster house for td meeting,,,?? Does this suit everybody?


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## Open air

We could also invite a barrister along for some legal guidance on the day,i know of one in the dublin area that is heavily involved in a tanager case


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## Open air

Whats your background blighty


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## Browner

I'm free for that date and well done.


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## Open air

Great to see the interest thats been shown.So as it stands we have a highly regarded financial commentator on board,a td , and im also in talks with a barrister. Lets drive this on,have a voice and support each other.As ive said from the beginning,there is strength in numbers.


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## Jpatrick

Date for the meeting suits me


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## Open air

Good to hear jpatrick


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## Poldara

Great stuff open air, look forward to it.


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## Open air

Thank you


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## Rambo1

What appeal is this |?


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## Open air

Arent they appealing the justice laffoy ruling


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## Open air

Barrister confirmed for the 17th


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## Browner

Brendan will you be joining us?
It would be great if you can.


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## Open air

Brendan is coming too browner,along with our barrister


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## Kitten

Just seeing this now, my husband and I will be there. I had spoken on a previous thread about our experience. Same as all of you, paying full equity for 2 years now and a reduced agreed amount before that for 2 years, haven't defaulted since the original arrears built up.  Our debt is circa 400k with arrears of 15k. All offers have been denied, repossession is sought. Very same story.  Great to see this meeting being set up.  Well done Open air.


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## Browner

Hi Kitten, so what are they looking for if you?


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## Kitten

Oh they want the house...........


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## Open air

Welcome kitten,look forward to meeting you


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## Open air

Hi guys i wont be posting where will meet each other ,as i have been told that tanager are closely monitoring this thread. If people could pm me and we will go through the details of the day. Looking forward to meeting you all.


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## Open air

Oct 17th 4 pm,,,


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## Browner

Guys,
Seems to be another Tanager meeting this Friday anyone know of it?
This is on the Irish mortgage strike back page,


Calling all bank of Scotland Ireland customers finnstown Castle hotel Dublin this Friday night at 8pm join the team thats winning


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## Open air

Yes browner i spoke to the organiser of this event at the weekend. A good man with several people in their group involved in deep legal proceedings with tanager. This man and a few from the group will be accompanying us to leinster house,,anyone that would like to attend that meeting should. BRING YOUR PAPERWORK AND ID!!!


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## Tanagable

One of the Tanager appeals was for hearing last week, It has been set back until the end of this month.


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## Open air

Yes,,terrible personal circumstances for that man and his family lead to that adjournment.These matters will be also raised with the minister,what is going on with tanager is absolutely appalling


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## Open air

Entry details to the meeting have been finalised,,please pm me guys for details. Looking forward to meeting you all


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## Open air

I think we have another very prominent mortgage activist attending now as well guys,very strong group heading in to leinster house


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## Browner

That’s great open air.  With everything going on in the papers also hopefully our timing is good and the government will start to stand up and support people who are fighting these vultures to stay in their home.


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## Open air

With the help of god all will go in the right direction


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## Open air

Thanks to all that attended leinster house yesterday,, great to see people come out of the shadows, talk up, and be prepared to put it to tanager that they are acting outside of the marp and ccma. Hopefully this will progress and we will finally be on a level playing field with other mortgage holders in the country. Thanks again,


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## Open air

Hey guys im looking for email address' if you have yet to forward them to me. Privately of course


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## Browner

With everything in the papers today I wonder did BOS / Tanager overcharge is?
Hopefully the government will wake up and see not only banks but what the vulture funds are doing to people.


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## Open air

Well browner as we said last week, we all definitely felt something was up. Have had a few private emails during the week, our group is growing


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## Browner

That’s great and hopefully good things will come out of our meeting last week. 
Some good people turn up. 
Important to stay in contact and keep this going.


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## Brendan Burgess

Browner said:


> With everything in the papers today I wonder did BOS / Tanager overcharge is?



Very unlikely.  If you are still on a tracker  which most of BoSI customers are, then you have not lost your tracker.

Brendan


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## Poldara

_You maybe still on your tracker, but BOS where charging double interest if you missed a payment. They debited  the full  monthly amount which already included interest an then added  the interest on it again. So check any old bos statements you have.  You might be surprised what you find._


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## Browner

FYI

David Hall &  @StephenCur  will be before the Oireachtas Justice Cmmt at 9.30am tmrw re Michael McGrath’s Mortgage Bill. We will circulate our opening statement afterwards . We will also propose a #vulturetax @MortgagesIrl


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## Rambo1

Browner / Brendan , you may have not lost your tracker but there it is quite possible that you have been overcharged. I was! and it went into the thousands. Get your account audited. Ask TANAGER for a FULL statement of account ASAP! You will  need it for any future battle down the road!


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## Open air

Always worth the get these things checked Rambo1 ,


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## Open air

So looks like things are starting to move along. Contact received from td today, hopefully more to come very soon


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## lukas888

Open Air,  I have often thought that vulture funds operating in Ireland are getting away soft as regards public knowledge of them. Tanager for example are a fund owned by Apollo an enormous American company.As far as I know the two listed directors are Patrick Mabry and Angela O Brien not exactly house hold names.Compare these two largely faceless people with the CEO'S of the banks and most are well known from their regular Oireachtas appearances.Yet these funds are having a massive effect on a lot of our citizens, and in theory have to follow the same protocol as the banks but never have to account in public for their actions.I am not suggesting for a moment that the directors have done anything wrong but I am sure  a lot of the posters on this thread would give anything to see one of them in front of an Oireachtas committee.


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## Open air

lukas888 said:


> Open Air,  I have often thought that vulture funds operating in Ireland are getting away soft as regards public knowledge of them. Tanager for example are a fund owned by Apollo an enormous American company.As far as I know the two listed directors are Patrick Mabry and Angela O Brien not exactly house hold names.Compare these two largely faceless people with the CEO'S of the banks and most are well known from their regular Oireachtas appearances.Yet these funds are having a massive effect on a lot of our citizens, and in theory have to follow the same protocol as the banks but never have to account in public for their actions.I am not suggesting for a moment that the directors have done anything wrong but I am sure  a lot of the posters on this thread would give anything to see one of them in front of an Oireachtas committee.


At the moment it seems they are acting with impunity. Hopefully that is about to change


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## Open air

More added to the group today!!! The word is spreading about tanagers behaviour!


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## Browner

Hi everyone , I received a letter from lapithus ask me to fill out personal details and send back to them. 
They said it’s for central bank /credit rating services. 
Just wondering has anyone else received anything like this ?


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## Open air

Have received it twice, have binned it twice.Id be very careful of signing anything for this shower browner


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## Browner

Agree, hence I haven’t signed it.


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## Prince pig

I have received it twice also.  
I think I will give it the same urgency and attention that they give me whenever I send something to them......


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## Open air

Prince pig said:


> I have received it twice also.
> I think I will give it the same urgency and attention that they give me whenever I send something to them......


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## Poldara

_I also have received letters  twice , not a chance am I signing them._


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## Open air

So tanager received a set back today, courtesy of very brave man called rolf kane. They seem to have a serious problem where the mortgage was transferred directly from BOSI》TANAGER, not so much of a problem where the loan was transferred from BOSI》BOSPLC》TANAGER, so check your folio's to find out. Also on a seperate note it appears that they have been calculating the arrears incorrectly, and the central bank are now looking into this. Also if you could please check your original loan offer, and check what mortgage product you were offered, and what interest rate you were offered, and if it has been administered to your account correctly. Lets keep the squeeze on tanager


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## Browner

Your right open air. Let’s keep putting the squeeze on them anyway we can. 
Brendan guidance and information has been a big help and this will give people confidence in dealing with these people. 
Let’s hope Tanager get more set backs in the next few weeks.


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## Open air

It appears that a meeting with the central bank and tanager mortgage holders could be a possibility, watch this space!


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## IdesofMarch

Bernard Sheridan or Derville Rowland are the people from the CBI to meet.


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## Open air

Thank you , great info to have


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## Browner

This is very interesting.


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## IdesofMarch

Open Air,

Any developments with meeting the Central Bank


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## Open air

Waiting on date, have you checked your inbox idesofmarch


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## IdesofMarch

Central Bank of Ireland aware of Start, Nua, IBRC, Mars, BOSI, Tanager, (might be others) automatic capitalization of arrears issues. All impacted customers seemingly to be notified in early 2018.


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## Open air

Very good,,,do you think they will be liable to pay compensation idesofmarch?


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## IdesofMarch

Open air said:


> Very good,,,do you think they will be liable to pay compensation idesofmarch?



If the Central Bank of Ireland (CBI) follow the same rationale as the Financial Conduct Authority (FCA) in the UK, then yes, compensation will be paid. In your particular case, which is with Tanager DAC, if you were in arrears with BOSI, prior to moving to Tanager, the same automatic capitalization of arrears occurred when with BOSI, whether you were fixed, variable or tracker. Does it fall to Tanager or to BOSI to pay compensation on the mortgage that was automatically capitalized when with BOSI? Does Tanager have sight of BOSI accounts going back years? (I think not). In the UK, consumers could choose to have their arrears either capitalized with consent or seek refund and remediation. If they chose the former, the borrower is no longer in arrears and *any legal possession proceedings based in any way on these arrears must cease*. However these borrowers will have to pay larger monthly installments going forward. Their mortgage will be re-classed as performing and their credit rating must also be restored. They will however still get compensation for the error. It must be borne in mind that when firms in the UK are calculating over payments in excess of the reconstituted  contractual monthly repayments they must add a payment of 8% interest (simple) to the yearly overcharge, which can lead to a substantial repayment over time.

This leads me on to the fact that Tanager DAC has offered borrowers up to a 40% discount on their current mortgage balance. Borrowers in Ireland have found it next to impossible to refinance with another mortgage provider due to their respective Irish Credit Bureau (ICB) report (missing payments record), to take up these offers. The current Central Bank of Ireland investigation could prove beneficial to both Tanager DAC and its respective customers, as in, if the CBI instruct BOSI or Tanager to amend the impacted customers' ICB reports, then these customers may be able to take up Tanager's offer and move to another provider, allowing Tanager to still take profit. Possible win win situation for both parties.


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## Browner

This is very interesting, and hopefully Tanager might start treating their customers with the basic respect you would expect. 
At present their a law to themselves.


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## IdesofMarch

There are many landmines for Tanager to tread on, due to the behaviour of their predecessor in title, Bank of Scotland, coupled with their own actions. Lets see what transpires in the New Year and see do Tanager want to do deals in earnest and comply with CCMA and MARP processes in relation to customers in arrears. If nothing changes, well lets say, Tanager and  Lapithus/Cabot will come under intense scrutiny.


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## Browner

All Tanagers customer want is the proper process applied. They have been bullying people over the last 2 years. 
So Tanager are being put aside now time for Christmas and Tanager will not be ruining it this year for me and my family. 
I hope everyone here can try knock off and enjoy spending time with family which what matters most.


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## Open air

Here is hoping tanager clean their act up. The central bank has been in contact and is not willing to meet us directly just yet. If everyone could start organising themselves for the new year, as the central bank want us to exhibit how tanager has treated us, i.e no marp, no ccma, arrears calculated incorrectly,and also i think interest rates applied incorrectly. I think a meeting in the new year is warranted to start getting organised so we can be afforded the same rights as a customer with a mainstream bank.


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## IdesofMarch

Lets hope the Central Bank of Ireland start flexing their consumer protection muscles.


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## Prince pig

Makes a change from dodging him instead


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## Open air

What a shower of moron's. Treat us with absolute disdain and contempt for 3.5 years, and now it's all please and thank you like they are doing us a huge favour!


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## IdesofMarch

They are not out of the woods yet. Will explain in January. More to this than meets the eye.


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## Kitten

You have me intrigued....


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## Open air

Hey guys, thank you to every single person that has helped us during the year, and to everyone who has commented liked or quoted on this thread. Here is hoping that 2018 brings tanager and the central bank to own up to their responsiblities to us as mortgage holders and consumers. Happy christmas to all of you . X


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## Browner

Well said open air. Stronger and upwards  
Happy Christmas all


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## Poldara

*Registered User*
Is there any anyone else  in this situation as I don't even have BOSI on my folio, it goes as far back as the Governor & Company of BOS, which were dissolved in 2007. I am in the process of going through the PRA at the moment under section 19.1 of the land registry act and will also be taking a case. BOSI nor BOS plc where never registered as owners of the charge so therefore it was a mistake to allow the transfer to Tanager.


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## IdesofMarch

Have you sued Tanager yet?


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## Poldara

Ides, I wouldn't no where to start!


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## IdesofMarch

Poldara,

You should see what Tanager have to say for themselves before embarking on this route. From what I gather, in your particular case, (which is unusual) Tanager DAC do not have a valid legal charge secured on your property (although registered as owner of the charge with the PRA), as the owner of the charge was registered in the PRA as the Governor and Company of Bank of Scotland on a date after all charges transferred by operation of law across to BOSI, which happened in 2004. In 2007, the Governor and Company of Bank of Scotland ceased to exist. A bit of a legal quagmire for Tanager. They will argue that they bought the contractual rights of the loan to which you purchased your property and as such, may seek to pursue you by way of summary judgment. However, that being said, who gave BOS Plc the right to sell the contractual rights of your loan to Tanager when they may never have had those contractual rights in the first instance, seeing that these contractual rights may have remained with GCBOS. Definitely a right mess.


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## Open air

Hey guys, just to confirm we will be organising a meeting of tanager mortgage holders again in the next 3-4 weeks.We feel that we have got great traction from our trip to leinster house and it would be a shame to let things slip now. Hopefully we will have some legal advice on the day as tanager have brought alot of us to court on a overstated arrears balance, so lying on a affidavitt to repossess a house is pretty low, especially where alot of these consumers were breaking their backs to get back on track.Tanager are following these threads closely, as one of our members had his story quoted back to him word for word. Hopefully they will finally see sense and begin to  do deals with people on these loans , as we all know they have bought these loans at collossal discounts, pursued people for the full original ammounts, and then where people were paying these ammounts they still proceeded to civil bill stage unless you could give them a lump sum!! . Hopefully they realise the game is up, hopefully the central bank will do its job, and hopefully we will be finished with this mess we all find ourseleves in.!!! This could all be resolved so easily through dialogue trust and respect!!.Here is hoping for a better 2018!!


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## Poldara

Well said open air, look forward to the meeting. Happy New Year


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## Poldara

It's time to put the shoe on the other foot and we should all do this together as one.


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## Rambo1

"  tanager have brought alot of us to court on a overstated arrears balance, so lying on a affidavitt to repossess a house is pretty low " 

Perhaps some of you will recall when I suggested that it would be a good idea for those/all of us who have been brought to court by tanager to ask the legal team/group acting on behalf of tanager to present you with a full copy and details of their own indemnity insurance?  Now as especially if in your opinion if there  has been " lies on an affidavitt " from Tanager and/or its legal team ?  which has been presented to the court as evidence against you by a particular legal team/group

If you can prove or witnessed/ and have said copy of signed sworn affidavitt that the Tanager solicitor/legal team lied via a sworn/ and read out  affidavitt in court ?

Does this not leave the Tanager Legal Team in a very vulnerable position ?  Perhaps some wiser owls hear could advise ?? Thanks!


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## Prince pig

I requested a copy of Tanagers  solicitors indemnity insurance on 2 occasions.    Was ignored first time and second time received a reply 2 days before court date saying I was not entitled to that information and hence they would not provide it.   This letter came from the solicitors and not Tanager.


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## Rambo1

From what I have been told, Members od=f the law society are obliged to provide their insurance details when requested ? perhaps you should call the law society ?


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## Rambo1

Poldara///my folio states   

Charge for present and future advances stamped to cover €xxx,xxx repayable with interest. THE GOVERNOR AND COMPANY OF THE BANK OF SCOTLAND is owner of this charge. Tanager Limited is owner of the charge at entry no. 1 above.

The charge for THE GOVERNOR AND COMPANY OF THE BANK OF SCOTLAND   WAS entered in 2010 , 5 years after the mortgage was taken out ??


Tanager Limited is owner of the charge at entry no. 1 above.    since 2014 ??

interesting times ahead !


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## Prince pig

I am going to do that in the morning.   I have written copies of both requests and of their tardy reply.   And they are a big firm not a local ambulance chasing outfit.  And I have looked up their staff that are signing these replies through Facebook / linked in etc and you would believe they are so professional and experts at what they do ..........
Thanks Rambo for your ideas and suggestions.


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## Open air

Rambo1 said:


> "  tanager have brought alot of us to court on a overstated arrears balance, so lying on a affidavitt to repossess a house is pretty low "
> 
> Perhaps some of you will recall when I suggested that it would be a good idea for those/all of us who have been brought to court by tanager to ask the legal team/group acting on behalf of tanager to present you with a full copy and details of their own indemnity insurance?  Now as especially if in your opinion if there  has been " lies on an affidavitt " from Tanager and/or its legal team ?  which has been presented to the court as evidence against you by a particular legal team/group
> 
> If you can prove or witnessed/ and have said copy of signed sworn affidavitt that the Tanager solicitor/legal team lied via a sworn/ and read out  affidavitt in court ?
> 
> Does this not leave the Tanager Legal Team in a very vulnerable position ?  Perhaps some wiser owls hear could advise ?? Thanks!


Hey rambo1 good to hear from you again, hoping we will see you at next meeting. It's as plain as day that they lied on the affidavitt's.To be honest its a joke really, they have these big shot firms from dublin doing the legwork, and then they enlist some local idiot of a solicitor on your day in court, who 9 times out of 10 digs a deeper hole for tanager than they are already in.


----------



## Open air

Lying on a affidavitt is perjury, perjury is a serious offence,, even in irish courts!!!


----------



## Prince pig

I will update you all tomorrow after I call the law society


----------



## Rambo1

The solicitors are further obliged to inform their own insurance company themselves when asked by a third party to provide insurance details ?...Woods Hogan as example.


----------



## Open air

Woods hogan are no more after their interactions with bosi-tanager, who will be next to fall???????????????


----------



## Poldara

Rambo, it's all a mess. The governor & company of bos was dissolved in 2007.  That's why I'm going to appeal the letter I received from the pra and take a case under section 19.1 of the 1964 land registry act. Neither bosi nor bos plc where ever registered as owners of the charge, so I believe they didn't have the right or power without being registered owners to sell on the charge to Tanager. Maybe this is something we should all think about doing for those of us who don't have bos plc on the deeds.


----------



## Rambo1

Can somebody advise/confirm?

It is my understanding that only 3 ways a charge can be put on your mortgage/house/property. 

1 By a judge/ court ?
2 By issuing bank ? At time of drawdown etc
3 The owner?

If this is the case? 
neither a judge or myself have permitted have done so on my property!  BOSI have not or ever appeared on my folio!

Only charge to GG BOS ...in 2010 ( which apparently ceased to exist in 2007?...

Then 2014 this charge transferred to tanagerLtd. ..How is this legally possible?  Or I totally misunderstanding this?


----------



## Prince pig

Was onto law society this morning.   Have to send my questions by email or in writing and up to 10 days for a reply so I followed up with email and will keep you posted.


----------



## Open air

Well done prince pig, keep us informed!!


----------



## IdesofMarch

I believe a plethora of letters are to be sent out to impacted Tanager customers over the coming weeks. Happy New Year!


----------



## Open air

Let's hope it makes happy reading!!!


----------



## Rambo1

Hi IdesofMarch  can you elaborate on " impacted Tanager Customers " and can you give me your thoughts on my previous post re " Charge only registered in 2010 5 years after mortgage drawn down and no ref to BOSI etc etc THANKS......I have been onto the regulation dept today of the law society and the relevant person/persons who can advise re Indemnity Insurance etc where not available today, so I will call back in the morning...THANKS


----------



## Open air

Customers who's arrears were calculated incorrectly, bosi and tanager were double dipping


----------



## Open air

Huge news coming out of tanager this morning,more to follow


----------



## vicvol1

What’s going on Open Air????


----------



## Open air

You took the words right out of my mouth !!!!!


----------



## Open air

Surely the central bank have to get on these guys harder


----------



## IdesofMarch

Rambo1 said:


> Hi IdesofMarch  can you elaborate on " impacted Tanager Customers " and can you give me your thoughts on my previous post re " Charge only registered in 2010 5 years after mortgage drawn down and no ref to BOSI etc etc THANKS......I have been onto the regulation dept today of the law society and the relevant person/persons who can advise re Indemnity Insurance etc where not available today, so I will call back in the morning...THANKS



Rambo1,

Can you P.M. me


----------



## Poldara

This just gets better by the minute, what will we hear next!


----------



## Open air

Piece on tanager in irish independent.


----------



## marcus

HIKvdukes said:


> Director of Tanager, A O Brian resigned on 08/12/2017. Rats jumping ship. All her affidavits now only good for toilet paper.



Does this mean that any circuit court proceedings filed with Angela O Brien affidavits now cannot go ahead?


----------



## Open air

I wonder how many tanager mortgage holders were terrified to engage with tanager because of their overstated arrears balance?.   You can just imagine people sitting at home receiving threatening phone call after threatening phone call, avoiding the post man for fear of what he had for you, all the while dealing with very tough family situations, e.g suicide, ill loved one's, unemployed partners,people moving abroad to find work. All the while dealing with these problems you are looking at a arrears balance that seems so far away that you just feel like giving up and sinking into this pile of debt.How this fund has been left behave in this country is shameful , it's time for it to stop now, please if you are reading this and are not already a part of our group, please get in touch.


----------



## Kitten

When i was engaging fully with Lapithus/Tanager and had been denied recapitalisation despite being told it would happen after 6 month of full equity payment, they hit us with a demand for an additional €777 monthly. This floored me as they went on a very aggrresive attack and began the threat of repossession. One night in June 15 despite never having had asthma or any respiratory issues i woke unable to breathe. Long story short i had what is called an acute near fatal broncospasm, it took 3 medics 40 minutes to stabililse me before going to hospital as my 02 levels were dangerously low. Despite an inortinate amout of steriods injected and given intravenously (2 lines in and fully nebulised) i had a 2nd attack in the hospital that basically my doctor has said i am very lucky to have survived. I saw the top allergy specialist in Dublin and he tested for every grass, fish, mould etc and nothing showed up. A respiratory consultant did a full check also to determine what caused it and to this day i still don't know. I now carry an inhaler just in case and due to the severity of my attack i have to get to an a&e asap if i feel it starting again. Broncospasms can be brought on by stress and its the only conclusion we can come to. I was in line for promotion at work and had to withdraw from the process as the new role involved travel. From a medical perspective i was advised not to be alone at night until a cause was determined as the attack occurred in my sleep and if it happened again i may not be physically capable of seeking help myself. It now turns out we are one of the 30 that our arrears are so low we may not in fact be in arrears. We are waiting to get the second letter. We went to court in November and the county registrar weighed heavily in our favour and lost the plot with the banks barrister. She directed them to meet with us pre Dec 8th with a decision maker from Tanager. They declined the meeting a few days later despite it being a direct request from the CR via their solicitors. She did this intentionally as she has no power over the bank but does over the solicitor. They do not care. Now we hear they have put us through all of this whilst overcharging us?  I am beyond furious.


----------



## Open air

Fair play for sharing your story kitten, many more like us.


----------



## Kitten

*Emotional Stress:- *Not always a victim of respiratory syndromes or asthma receives bronchospasm. People under high emotional stress can also suffer the problem. A person who experiences stress and anxiety for relatively long time is more likely to become victim of bronchospasm


----------



## Kitten

A very quick search online gave me that. Open air they have alot to answer for.


----------



## IdesofMarch

Kitten said:


> When i was engaging fully with Lapithus/Tanager and had been denied recapitalisation despite being told it would happen after 6 month of full equity payment, they hit us with a demand for an additional €777 monthly. This floored me as they went on a very aggrresive attack and began the threat of repossession. One night in June 15 despite never having had asthma or any respiratory issues i woke unable to breathe. Long story short i had what is called an acute near fatal broncospasm, it took 3 medics 40 minutes to stabililse me before going to hospital as my 02 levels were dangerously low. Despite an inortinate amout of steriods injected and given intravenously (2 lines in and fully nebulised) i had a 2nd attack in the hospital that basically my doctor has said i am very lucky to have survived. I saw the top allergy specialist in Dublin and he tested for every grass, fish, mould etc and nothing showed up. A respiratory consultant did a full check also to determine what caused it and to this day i still don't know. I now carry an inhaler just in case and due to the severity of my attack i have to get to an a&e asap if i feel it starting again. Broncospasms can be brought on by stress and its the only conclusion we can come to. I was in line for promotion at work and had to withdraw from the process as the new role involved travel. From a medical perspective i was advised not to be alone at night until a cause was determined as the attack occurred in my sleep and if it happened again i may not be physically capable of seeking help myself. It now turns out we are one of the 30 that our arrears are so low we may not in fact be in arrears. We are waiting to get the second letter. We went to court in November and the county registrar weighed heavily in our favour and lost the plot with the banks barrister. She directed them to meet with us pre Dec 8th with a decision maker from Tanager. They declined the meeting a few days later despite it being a direct request from the CR via their solicitors. She did this intentionally as she has no power over the bank but does over the solicitor. They do not care. Now we hear they have put us through all of this whilst overcharging us?  I am beyond furious.



Kitten, the truth of the matter is that Tanager automatically capitalized your arrears, what date did they refuse you the capitalization of your arrears?


----------



## Kitten

Dec '15 timeframe as i know i've been paying  full equity for over 2 years. When i asked how much the differential would be he actually explained how it would be nil as the arrears were incorporated into the capital....which at the time i found very odd.


----------



## Kitten

My broncospasm was Summer before last 2016....not 15...i have all my medical records....


----------



## IdesofMarch

Kitten said:


> Dec '15 timeframe as i know i've been paying  full equity for over 2 years. When i asked how much the differential would be he actually explained how it would be nil as the arrears were incorporated into the capital....which at the time i found very odd.



Kitten, they refused your application for capitalisation of arrears in 2015, then they automatically capitalised your arrears by their letter dated March 2016 and you honoured this new agreement by making full equity payments to date. They then start legal proceedings against you. Have you got legal counsel ? I suspect a big payday for you. No wonder you got a letter, Tanager will be hoping a preying you are just so relieved to have got same that you do not pursue them. Wow, the mind boggles.


----------



## Browner

Hopefully Kitten everything works out for you and the rest of us. 
Make sure you get good legal advice before meeting them.


----------



## vicvol1

I requested twice by writing to them requesting recapitalisation... not a chance in hell and then I get a letter and voila,  arrears are gone!!! Begged to meet with them, anything really and they were not the least interested. Threatened with court repossession and then within 10 days, put my home into receivership. Now, they would like to meet to discuss my options. I was paying a huge whack off my arrears for the last 2 half years, and within the matter of a few weeks, they took my home. I have a solicitor and I look forward to meeting them. I lost everything and I have nothing more to lose. If you are waiting for a letter and realise that you might not get one, do not give up. Please get a solicitor to go through your options. Make no mistake, they are ruthless and brutal. I wrote on this forum during the summer but stopped after my home was reprocessed, due to my mental health. I believe that Tanager reads this forum and can identify who we are. Open Air has done Trojan work on here and I thank him. Everyone else is also very supportive. I remember a woman on here who was beside herself due to getting a court date. She was terrified, had no idea what was happening and felt that she would lose her family along with her home. I think about her and hope she is ok. This is peoples lives which are at stake. The loneliness and despair, the human cost is unbearable. Please get yourself educated if you don’t know, and get a solicitor. This is a long rant but I wanted to say that your not alone. Stay strong! If I can get here, you can too. Goodness knows what will happen when I meet them!


----------



## Kitten

They actually refused it twice as we appealled their first refusal on the basis that the guy in Tanager told us he was surprised as we were paying in DD, hadn't defaulted and 'he had seen far worse cases recapitalised'. He is still working there, spoke to him in November in a bid to do a deal....yet again.


----------



## Poldara

I was refused capitalisation 3 times even do I was paying my full mortgage as well as paying money of the arrears.  They knew what they where doing. Do they think a letter is going to make every thing alright, I don't think so. The fight is not over yet.


----------



## Open air

To hear all you guys speak like this is so sad, but also so empowering. Sad to see so many of us have been treated like dogs, empowering to see that we have all finally opened our eyes and have had enough,and great that the guys that have received their letters are not forgetting the past.


----------



## Browner

I agree with you open air. Some very sad stories and seems the common thing here is being treated like dogs. 
I think we should meet again in February and update each other and hopefully we will all have letters from them.


----------



## Poldara

You are right browner, with or without letters we should still continue  to get justice for what we have all been put through. We are stronger in numbers.


----------



## Open air

Any more letters surface amongst the group?


----------



## Browner

I have received no letter as yet. 
IdesofMarch above happened to me also reduction in rate and increase in payment. 
My statement shows the arrears not going down and staying the same,  but the total amount has gone down. So the supposed arrears are still showing.


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## IdesofMarch

Browner,
Have you been paying the new monthly contractual payments as outlined in their letter dated March 2016 to date?


----------



## Browner

Yes, my payments have be according to their letter informing me of the interest rate and increase in payment.


----------



## IdesofMarch

Have you paid them to date?


----------



## Browner

Yes


----------



## Browner

Anyone get any letters from Tanager yet?


----------



## Prince pig

Unfortunately none for me yet.


----------



## Open air

They must be saving the best til last...........


----------



## Prince pig

very true


----------



## Browner

Hopefully lol.


----------



## vicvol1

It might not do any harm to contact your pip or whoever was helping you, just to see if they received a letter from Tanager on your behalf.


----------



## IdesofMarch

I think you will all have to wait till the end of January 2018


----------



## Open air

Hey guys hope all is good, anymore receive letters from tanager. Also i think if we could meet in early february it would be beneficial to all.


----------



## Browner

We have had no word and happy to meet up.


----------



## Open air

We must be getting golden letters!


----------



## Open air

Has everyone here had the correct trs applied to their account?????


----------



## Prince pig

Happy to meet early Feb.   My new TRS figure seems correct although maybe I should check it with Revenue.    No letters from Tanager though.........


----------



## annabanana

Can anyone help me- the charge on the folio is to BOS (Ireland) but the seller of the mortgage to Tanager is BOSPLC. Is this right?


----------



## annabanana

Is this true that she resigned? I cannot find anything on this


----------



## BizManP

CRO website shows change of directors as of December 8th 2017. Angela O’Brien resigned and two Luxembourg based directors registered as of then. Ms O’Brien’s resume (Halifax, Certus, Tanager/Lapithus), choice!  Is she running and hiding and, if so, from what?  Are her Affidavits still valid?


----------



## BizManP

Anyone have any update on the Court of Appeal case of Tanager vs Rolf Kane?


----------



## annabanana

Thank you BizManP for that information. I only found this forum. I am also with Tanager and in court soon but don't know a lot. Can you tell me what capitalization of arrears means?


----------



## girlonamission

Sorry deleted my message when trying to edit ugh..............


----------



## Open air

Wonderful that more and more are coming forward, pm me if ye want to be part of the group!


----------



## Open air

Meeting this month guys, date and time to be finalised, any newcomers are to pm me.


----------



## girlonamission

Hi All, I am new and one of 30 who got a letter before Christmas (though I suspect there are more of us out there!). Can anyone advise on a financial person to take a look at my previous statements? I have no idea what any of it means. I engaged a solicitor a number of years ago for advice but they have never responded to them. When I phoned regarding the letter received, I asked about the payments made to my solicitor as a result of their constant threat of court and they said they would reimburse them. My solicitor requested that they also make an offer of compensation for stress caused but as I say, they haven't responded. Should I go ahead and get reimbursed for the fees to my solicitor to date anyway?? No sign of the letter that was promised explaining my repayments. I only received a statement for 2017 but I am so crap with numbers! I am currently digging out my original agreements and correspondents. I would like to take them to someone who can explain them to me. Yes I would like to meet too please. I'm so tired. 2 diagnosed illness that I am convinced are a result of stress.


----------



## Browner

Letters should be out end of February. I would hold off until then. I personally wouldn’t accept anything for the moment. Wait for the meeting you will get a lot of information then. 
I heard a lady called Angie Mullen does audits on mortgages try her.


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## Open air

Hold tight til end of feb


----------



## Open air

On a side note, fantastic to have so many tanager customers coming forward!


----------



## girlonamission

Thanks. Which meeting do you mean?


----------



## girlonamission

Thanks for that


----------



## Open air

Keep a eye on pat kenny show tonight at 10


----------



## Open air

Good article on the journal.ie this morning ,highlighting the plight of tanager mortgage holders.Well done to all involved.


----------



## Open air

Is everyone being charged the correct interest rate on your loan, check your original loan offer, and check what tanager has you on. Is it matching up?????. Also check out claire byrne tonight


----------



## Cathal

I still havn't received my letter re recapitalisation which they said would be out by end of JAn and then Feb. Anyone else in this position?


----------



## vicvol1

I’m waiting for the same Cathal. I think that we were due a letter this week.


----------



## Open air

Letters supposedly went out/processed on feb 26th.With the weather there is bound to be even more delay.


----------



## vicvol1

How are you getting on Open Air? Is Tanager still threatening you with repossession? Are more people going to be getting letters about re capitalisation?


----------



## Open air

Neck still on the block vivcol!! I hope everyone gets one!! Hope you are doing well!


----------



## gahfan

Hi, I'm a P Tsb Mortgage holder. Talk of mortgages being sold to vulture funds. From your experience what is it like dealing with  vulture fund and any advice please.

Hopefully it won't happen obviously


----------



## Amber's

Check out the Irish Times, About vultcher funds being compelled to tell people what thay paid for there mortgages . Trough  the data protection laws.


----------



## Amber's

It would be nice to know the truth.


----------



## newtothis

gahfan said:


> Hi, I'm a P Tsb Mortgage holder. Talk of mortgages being sold to vulture funds. From your experience what is it like dealing with  vulture fund and any advice please.



It's mixed, with both positive and negative differences from dealing with banks. My experience is with Danske selling to Cerberus, by the way and I've spoken to others in that particular boat, but have no knowledge of any others.

The positive: you are more likely to get a hearing and if you're in a position to achieve it, a resolution. Unlike the bank, who just seemed to kick the can down the road and could be extremely difficult to engage with (different person each time contact was made, constantly going back over the same ground etc.) it was possible to actually meet with them.

The negative: they have absolutely no interest in any resolution that extends beyond a couple of years - they are not interested in the original aim of the mortgage (a long-term loan). As a result, they won't offer anything that extends beyond a relatively short timeframe.

Other aspects were identical: general incompetence around meeting the MARP obligations and a capacity to say things which I knew to be flat out untrue.

I've heard some stories where they were pretty intimidatory, but the reality is if you're making best efforts to pay what you can and that is at or close to the original amount, your likelihood of losing your home is pretty much zero. They know this.


----------



## Amber's

Paying or not paying , in my experience, there is no positive no negative. .  thay just want the property,  plain and simple, 
A vultcher fund that is not a bank .but want to mess around with intrest rates and contracts. Like it is a bank?


----------



## newtothis

Amber's said:


> Paying or not paying , in my experience, there is no positive no negative. .  thay just want the property,  plain and simple,
> A vultcher fund that is not a bank .but want to mess around with intrest rates and contracts. Like it is a bank?



Not quite true in my experience: I would say they want a quick return rather than the property. If you manage to fund elsewhere, they will jump at an offer made to pay them off (this is what happened in my case). This is in complete contrast to regular banks, who won't do this, even when it's in everybody's interest to do so. It's probably their preferred option, as it's the quickest and cleanest. Their next preferred option is to get you to sell the property, as it means they don't have the trouble of gaining possession or of them selling it. They will put a lot of pressure on for you to do this, but if it's not your best option, just ignore this (easier said then done, I know). Their next option is to try and get repossession, but if you are fully engaged and paying, they will find this a very long road. They have no interest in any long term solution, such as extending the term, and won't offer this.

This is somewhat speculative on my part as I don't know their actual strategy, but it's all based on my personal experience and from talking to others with direct experience.


----------



## Open air

And this is the problem we find ourselves in,fully engaging, and yet being dragged through court every 3-4 months.Tanager have calculated arrears incorrectly, handled personal data incorrectly,and applied incorrect interest rates to your mortgage. So what would i do if i was a ptsb customer?, i'd start organising a "irish water" style peaceful demonsration to let the government know that they will be down 20,000 votes come the next election


----------



## newtothis

Open air said:


> So what would i do if i was a ptsb customer?, i'd start organising a "irish water" style peaceful demonsration to let the government know that they will be down 20,000 votes come the next election



You think staying with PTSB is necessarily better? For some people, it would actually be worse. I understand the motivation behind your suggestion, but I think the target of your suggested protest is incorrect. The problem isn’t vulture funds, it’s the lack of action by the banks to resolve matters. Given they will be unlikely to act in customers' interests where it conflicts with their own (and sometimes even when it’s in their common interest), it actually comes down to lack of action by the regulator and/or government to force sensible solutions. I’d suggest they were a more suitable target for any protest. Say the government blocked further sales to vulture funds: my prediction would be they’d pat themselves on the back for having taken action and meanwhile nobody’s actually any better off. It’s just letting them off the hook to say “vulture funds bad, banks (by implication) good”.


----------



## Open air

Im speaking from a tanager point of view,you are speaking from cerberus. We have obviously have two completely different experience's. If i had known then what i know now, i would of fought tooth and nail to stop my loan being transferred.How could you be possibly better off with someone that offers you no alternative than " finance elsewhere, or we repossess".?


----------



## newtothis

Open air said:


> .How could you be possibly better off with someone that offers you no alternative than " finance elsewhere, or we repossess".?



I said "some people", in particular those who do manage to finance elsewhere, as that's an option the banks don't generally offer. Others will be worse off. Stopping vulture funds won't make anyone's situation better: at best, it's preventing some people's from getting worse. That's why I think protesting against it is misdirected: effort should be directed at solving the actual problem.

Having said that, you have my sympathy: I'm well aware of how both banks and vuluture funds can and do behave.


----------



## Open air

Its a pity as you said that someone higher up cant take ownership of this issue and get it resolved. The stress and misery that this visits upon family's is incredible


----------



## BizManP

You cannot blame a Vulture fund for being a Vulture fund just as you cannot blame a Fox for entering a Hen-House if the door’s left open. The problem is that the doors are open and the Fox is in. There is no place in our or any other society for these Vultures to be dealing with FAMILIES AND HOMES. They deal in bricks and mortar, dollars and euros, Property not People. Pressure of any kind should be put on those who have the power to effect change and protect the families who, incidentally, bailed out these banks already and have been paying for it ever since. Banks and Vultures have been working in the shadows for too long and hiding behind “non-disclosure clauses” in various arrangements. It’s high time that they were called to task over their methods, whether by demonstration or through the media. The nation needs to know.


----------



## newtothis

BizManP said:


> The problem is that the doors are open and the Fox is in. There is no place in our or any other society for these Vultures to be dealing with FAMILIES AND HOMES.



That's a fair point, and one that I'd missed: you're right, they should not be allowed to deal in home mortgages. However, that would a sticking plaster: the real problem needs solving, and that's where the effort at getting change should primarily go.


----------



## BizManP

You couldn’t be more right, Open air. Keep up the pressure and don’t lose faith.


----------



## gahfan

Thanks for all the replies folks. Can you just outline what exactly happens when the vulture fund takes over please.
I might see about setting up a p tsb group. Might be worth contacting politicians etc.

Newtothis - can you let me know a bit about raising the funds elsewhere please. Did the fund accept a discount? I'm paying interest plus a small amount of capital. No arrears as such.


----------



## newtothis

gahfan said:


> Thanks for all the replies folks. Can you just outline what exactly happens when the vulture fund takes over please.
> I might see about setting up a p tsb group. Might be worth contacting politicians etc.
> 
> Newtothis - can you let me know a bit about raising the funds elsewhere please. Did the fund accept a discount? I'm paying interest plus a small amount of capital. No arrears as such.



To answer "what happens", on one level not much: the bank are replaced by a servicing company (in my case Capita) who deal with day-to-day interactions. They may or may not be easier to deal with. In the Danske/Cerberus case Capita replaced another handling agent, Pepper, who were by far the worst I dealt with. What does change are the options on the table and what will or will not be possible (see my post above on positives or negatives).

Raising funds elsewhere is not easy, and probably not possible if there are arrears. In my case I was in dispute over whether there were arrears or not (a very long story). One thing I would advise is to get a copy of your credit rating (it was the ICB, I believe it may have changed?). In my case there were errors that took a lot of effort to get corrected. As part of that process I somewhat surprisingly got a letter from Danske saying what a good customer I’d been, which possibly swung the new mortgage approval.

Anyway, that was the tough part. If you can get finance elsewhere, you can make an offer to the vulture fund. We needed some discount, as there was quite a difference in interest rate that we were on with the original loan, a tracker, and what’s generally available in the market. From memory, this was around a 15% discount. I offered between 30% and 35% (I don’t want to be more specific in this, an open, forum). It was accepted with no negotiation on their side. Obviously, I wished I’d asked for more in retrospect, though I’ve since heard the range others have achieved is 20% to 35%. Also, this is a minor point: I’m more than happy with the outcome.

Getting the new mortgage over the line was a real challenge: the execution of the agreement and the actual transfer was pretty straightforward though it did drag out over several weeks.

I can’t tell you the relief of reaching the end of what had been a fairly nightmare like experience of the past five years. We’ve now a manageable mortgage from one the main banks, and a business doing well to fund it (myself and my partner both lost our jobs, which had been the start of our difficulties).

Best of luck to you and others in your situation!


----------



## Distressed

Hi All , 
Did anyone receive a letter ? 
I’m due in court shortly (2nd date ) - I was told there were changes and letters would be coming out - I was focusing on that ( hoping ) .
No letter and I need to prepare for attending court . I’m slightly terrified - I had convinced myself not to be but lost my bottle now . 
I pay my full interest only amount and 50% again on top towards arrears - the usual attitude from Tanager - they say it’s not an option for going forward - hence court - any advice ?


----------



## Browner

Letters went out on 26th of February. I spoke to them last week and they said I should have the letter this week. 
They also told me to have a good read of it and ring them if I have any questions. 
I asked would they be meeting people and more or less said no only if we insist.


----------



## gahfan

thanks newtothis and others for all your advice.

How long do the vulture funds normally deal with people before looking to sell? A couple of years or are they trying to sell straight away?


----------



## newtothis

gahfan said:


> thanks newtothis and others for all your advice.
> 
> How long do the vulture funds normally deal with people before looking to sell? A couple of years or are they trying to sell straight away?



You're welcome.

In my experience of dealing with Cerberus, they operate to a timeframe of about three years to get a return. They are not trying to sell straight away: they are trying to make a return within that timeframe, the sooner the better. There preference is to do some form of deal that doesn't involve a sale, as that will necessarily take longer, regardless of how it is done.

I'm sure they are well aware of how slowly all this takes: it took me almost a year to get a deal completed for the time they took over the loan, it concluded about seven months after I met with them for the first and only time. Unlike the banks, they do not hang around as a result. 

This is all based on my experience with a different vulture fund, but I'd be surprised if Tanager were significantly different. It's also based on what happened and what I was told by them directly. However, I know they said conflicting things to other people, so they are well able to lie. Specifically, they told me they had no interest in the underlying asset; they told other people that this was the only thing they were interested in.

In short, I would expect them to move relatively quickly, though it may take many months and even one or two years to reach a conclusion. They have absolutely no interest in any solution that extends beyond their time frame. I was told they'd sell the loan on again if there was no resolution within the two to three year timeframe, but see my comment above on their capacity to lie.


----------



## murphy1969

You can buy your loan back at a discount? Is this what usually happens when dealing with vulture funds? Apologies for my intervention, but I'm a journalist writing for international readers about why there is such resistance to these funds in Ireland.


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## BizManP

murphy1969 said:


> You can buy your loan back at a discount? Is this what usually happens when dealing with vulture funds? Apologies for my intervention, but I'm a journalist writing for international readers about why there is such resistance to these funds in Ireland.


Broadly speaking, No is the answer to your questions. Where have you been for the last 4 years?  You need to do a bit more homework on the subject.


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## newtothis

BizManP said:


> Broadly speaking, No is the answer to your questions. Where have you been for the last 4 years?  You need to do a bit more homework on the subject.



Er, broadly speaking the answer is "yes" in answer to the questions: this is exactly what the vulture funds want you to do (unlike the banks). Where have you been for the remainder of this thread? You need to do a bit more homework on the subject. It's exactly what I did some months ago.

The problem is that in many (most?) cases the borrower cannot raise the funding to do this due to their history of problems in paying. In that case, the vulture fund will move to their next best option which is to sell the house, either by persuading the borrower to do so or if they refuse by forcing a sale by repossessing the house through the courts.


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## BizManP

newtothis said:


> Er, broadly speaking the answer is "yes" in answer to the questions: this is exactly what the vulture funds want you to do (unlike the banks). Where have you been for the remainder of this thread? You need to do a bit more homework on the subject. It's exactly what I did some months ago.
> 
> The problem is that in many (most?) cases the borrower cannot raise the funding to do this due to their history of problems in paying. In that case, the vulture fund will move to their next best option which is to sell the house, either by persuading the borrower to do so or if they refuse by forcing a sale by repossessing the house through the courts.


So if the borrower cannot get finance...... the answer is no.


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## newtothis

BizManP said:


> So if the borrower cannot get finance...... the answer is no.



Quite, but at least I answered the question rather than heaping scorn on what seemed like a perfectly reasonable question.


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## gahfan

Is there not protection for homeowners through the courts though? If a person is making a decent effort.


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## gahfan

newtothis said:


> You're welcome.
> 
> In my experience of dealing with Cerberus, they operate to a timeframe of about three years to get a return. They are not trying to sell straight away: they are trying to make a return within that timeframe, the sooner the better. There preference is to do some form of deal that doesn't involve a sale, as that will necessarily take longer, regardless of how it is done.
> 
> I'm sure they are well aware of how slowly all this takes: it took me almost a year to get a deal completed for the time they took over the loan, it concluded about seven months after I met with them for the first and only time. Unlike the banks, they do not hang around as a result.
> 
> This is all based on my experience with a different vulture fund, but I'd be surprised if Tanager were significantly different. It's also based on what happened and what I was told by them directly. However, I know they said conflicting things to other people, so they are well able to lie. Specifically, they told me they had no interest in the underlying asset; they told other people that this was the only thing they were interested in.
> 
> In short, I would expect them to move relatively quickly, though it may take many months and even one or two years to reach a conclusion. They have absolutely no interest in any solution that extends beyond their time frame. I was told they'd sell the loan on again if there was no resolution within the two to three year timeframe, but see my comment above on their capacity to lie.


Thanks again newtothis. If they took over a loan and the person is paying am agreed amount of interest plus a small portion of capital do they accept that or do they immediately try to get it increased


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## newtothis

gahfan said:


> Is there not protection for homeowners through the courts though? If a person is making a decent effort.



Not as of right. However, if you go through some of Brendan's reports, it's clear courts are dealing very sympathetically with people "making a decent effort", and your chances of losing your home when paying at least the interest and you're doing the best you can beyond that are just about zero.


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## newtothis

gahfan said:


> Thanks again newtothis. If they took over a loan and the person is paying am agreed amount of interest plus a small portion of capital do they accept that or do they immediately try to get it increased



Quite possibly, but I'd make sure that they comply with the MARP requirements. They may seek an increased payment as part of this which is fair enough if you have it, but I wouldn't agree to it if it affects your ability to put food on the table or heat your home. There's no doubt if you're not in a position to finance elsewhere you're worse off with a vulture fund, though if the bank you're with won't act to reach a resolution either there's probably not much in it.

A resolution happens when it's in both parties' best interests: if you can pay interest plus part capital it's quite possible to work out some long term arrangement with a bank that extends the term and/or increases payments over time as your capacity to do so improves or whatever. It's in both your interests to do this - the bank after all was happy to enter a long-term loan arrangement in the first place. However, a vulture fund has no interest in anything long term: they are interested in getting as much as possible out of you in the short term and in converting to loan to cash by having you refinance elsewhere or selling the house. 

This might seem to make you very vulnerable and in a weak position. However, and this is a huge credit to the courts, your position is actually quite strong as the courts take the (correct) view that it is the lender who is being unreasonable. It's important however to be able to show that you are being reasonable: keep doing what you're doing, paying what you can, and keep asking for a long-term solution that keeps you in your home. The more they resist you, the more unreasonable they will seem, which will not go unnoticed.

The other thing I would do is get some professional advice for your particular situation, as there may well be some other solution out there for you.

Finally, you are not alone!



​


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## BizManP

Hi Annabanana. Have they agreed to capitalise and are there arrears involved?


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## vicvol1

I thought once I got my letter that I would finally have a chance to turn a corner with this. But no, business as usual for Tanager. How they can state one thing in a letter in December and then say the opposite today just shows how vicious they are. This letter of recalculating arrears is just another smoke screen. Annabanana, how do they justify taking you back to court in June? My receiver remains in place and the sale of my home is to go ahead. It’s like they are beyond accountability. Does the central bank really have as little power as I now suspect? It’s a comple mess. Remember the letter we got about the discount which no one could take up? Psychological mind games. See you all at the high court folks for that’s the only option I have left.


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## Cathal

_I only got my letter of recalculation of arrears this week eventhough it was dated Feb and only after a request. It was just giving a generic example of Mary's hypothetical situatation and ended in saying it made no difference to the amount owed? It did however state that revised statements would issue when their systems were updated and I have now requested this which should surely show exactly where we were at when Receiver was appointed? 

Did anyone get one of the revised statements as I seem to be way behind in getting my info from them? _


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## Open air

Nothing to report yet cathal


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## annabanana

The monthly repayment amount was recalculated following certain events, including a change in the interest rate for your loan. Because the monthly repayment was calculated based on the outstanding balance on your account, if there was an arrears balance on the date of recalculation, your repayment would have increased to include the repayment of those arrears over the remaining life of your loan. This practice did not result in you being overcharged interest of fees, however, it did result in higher repayment than if we had not calculated your monthly repayments in this way............... 
This is what it says.  Not really sure what it all means to be honest. But no arrears showing on the letter, just total debt outstanding


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## IdesofMarch

annabanana said:


> The monthly repayment amount was recalculated following certain events, including a change in the interest rate for your loan. Because the monthly repayment was calculated based on the outstanding balance on your account, if there was an arrears balance on the date of recalculation, your repayment would have increased to include the repayment of those arrears over the remaining life of your loan. This practice did not result in you being overcharged interest of fees, however, it did result in higher repayment than if we had not calculated your monthly repayments in this way...............
> This is what it says.  Not really sure what it all means to be honest. But no arrears showing on the letter, just total debt outstanding



It means that Tanager dac automatically capitalised your arrears on the last ECB interest rate change. If you have been paying the newly quoted monthly mortgage instalments  since May 2016 (last interest change by ECB was March 2016, applied to the account in May 2016) on your account, your mortgage is not in arrears. No court in the land would grant a repossession order, if both parties *( by consent or behaviour) *varied the loan contract.


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## Amber's

I taught there where only 30 people with the intrest  rate over charge? Seems a lot more .


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## IdesofMarch

Amber's said:


> I taught there where only 30 people with the intrest  rate over charge? Seems a lot more .



There were only 30 repossession cases withdrawn by Tanager due to arrears miscalculation (immediate direct effect where borrowers arrears are now almost negligible due to recalculation) however, there are probably hundreds of borrowers affected by the interest calculation method employed by Tanager (it was a legacy BOSI system error). There may be other cases subsequently withdrawn by Tanager if the borrower can demonstrate that such arrears miscalculation changed their behaviour (i.e. stuck their head in the sand etc or indeed they can demonstrate the ability to fully service the higher monthly repayments going forward (arrears capitalisation by behaviour of both parties).


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## annabanana

I have not been paying full payments as I lost my job so don't know where I stand to be honest


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## murphy1969

Are the main street banks easier to deal with than the funds?


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## Rambo1

Girl on a mission. Ring tanager now and request them to send you all the original documentation really your mortgage account to include your original bos mortgage..and to include all statements of account etc etc up to the present day..


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## Cathal

Cathal said:


> _I only got my letter of recalculation of arrears this week eventhough it was dated Feb and only after a request. It was just giving a generic example of Mary's hypothetical situatation and ended in saying it made no difference to the amount owed? It did however state that revised statements would issue when their systems were updated and I have now requested this which should surely show exactly where we were at when Receiver was appointed?
> 
> Did anyone get one of the revised statements as I seem to be way behind in getting my info from them? _



 I need the revised statement to determine if I was in fact in arrears at the date the receiver was appointed ? Am I correct in this and again has anyone got the revised statement?


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## IdesofMarch

Cathal said:


> I need the revised statement to determine if I was in fact in arrears at the date the receiver was appointed ? Am I correct in this and again has anyone got the revised statement?



All customers are to have received their revised statement by May 2018. (Hope it includes the interest rate applicable that was charged to each account)


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## annabanana

Does anyone know whether cases are still going ahead in the courts with Tanager while the Rolf Kane case is going on, and due to the miscalculation sham? God it's so bloody stressful


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## BizManP

Cases relating to the PRA issue, as per Rolf Kane, are being adjourned. In my case, until October. Unsure as to the situation Re the overcharging issue.


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## annabanana

So I am due back in court in June, do I fight my case on this PRA issue? I got a phone call today to say my arrears are 8,000 less and my mortgage payment is 100 euro less due to the miscalculations. They are sending me out a letter to confirm


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## annabanana

I know what you mean it's so confusing


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## Brendan Burgess

Anna

Rather than do this bit by bit, you should start a new thread with all this information.  That is the only way you will get any meaningful suggestions

* Information required for mortgage arrears and negative equity questions*

Brendan


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## annabanana

Got my letter today from Tanager stating miscalculation


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## Open air

Alot of people did, looks like a 25% miscalculation


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## Poldara

Hi Brendan, just wondering if you could explain this for me please. I received my letter today from tanager. It states arrears dropped by 4 .5K and monthly by €123. The letter states that any payment made over the new monthly amount will come of the arrears. I thought the fact they where charging interest on the total principal that this was automatic capitalization and therefore there should now be no arrears only the total principal. Any thoughts on this.


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## IdesofMarch

Poldara said:


> Hi Brendan, just wondering if you could explain this for me please. I received my letter today from tanager. It states arrears dropped by 4 .5K and monthly by €123. The letter states that any payment made over the new monthly amount will come of the arrears. I thought the fact they where charging interest on the total principal that this was automatic capitalization and therefore there should now be no arrears only the total principal. Any thoughts on this.



Poldara,

If you have paid the monthly mortgage repayments as stated by Tanager since May 2016 (effective date of last automatic recapitalisation of arrears from their letter dated the 16th March 2016), then, if you keep paying this amount, the arrears have been automatically capitalised (albeit inadvertently) and you have no arrears (variation of contract by the behaviour of both parties). Tanager will most likely withdraw legal proceedings (if commenced) as they will not get a possession order against you in court. This was an option that the Financial Conduct Authority in the UK agreed with BOS Plc (from whom Tanager bought the loans off and whose mortgage calculations were similarly miscalculated) that must be made available to impacted borrowers.

If you accept the reduced monthly mortgage repayment and the reduced arrears amount, then you are in arrears again by the reduced amount stated.


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## Poldara

_That's what I was thinking, sure nothing would change, I'd still be in arrears. Should I then tell then  they have automatically capitalized and therefore there are no arrears?_


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## IdesofMarch

Have you paid the increased monthly repayment since May 2016 and can you continue to meet these repayments ? If the answer is yes, then write into Tanager, through Lapithus, stating that you wish to continue with the recapitalised monthly payments.


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## annabanana

I haven't been paying full mortgage but recently start working and plan to pay it now. I wonder will this miscalculation have any effect on the court decisions


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## IdesofMarch

annabanana,

If you start paying your full monthly instalments now and explain to the registrar on the next court date about your confusion over the fact that when interest rates dropped, your monthly repayment went up. I doubt he/she will progress the matter to the Judges list. You should however contact Tanager and try and get a deal to resolve the arrears issue. If you can show the court that you have attempted this, this will also be to your advantage with regards to any possession proceedings.


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## annabanana

Hi IdesofMarch
thank you for your response. Any idea of what deal they might do? I heard the Rolf Kane case is back in High Court next Friday and all Tanager cases are being adjourned until its solved. Great news if it's true.


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## Open air

True


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## IdesofMarch

Rolf Kane case put back to June 26th.


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## Open air

Tanager cases could be backe up til december now


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## annabanana

I'm due back on the 1st of June will this be adjourned then?


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## Brendan Burgess

If you are affected by the Rolf Kane case, yes.

Not all Tanager cases are. 

Brendan


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## annabanana

I am affected. My mortgage was sold by BOS but BOSI are on the Folio


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## annabanana

Should we just accept that there was a 'miscalculation' with Tanager or is there something we should be doing about this?


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## Open air

Tanager are incapable solving these miscalculations in my opinion


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## annabanana

They are not happy with mortgage repayment now hassling for arrears to be cleared I can't win. I believe they just want my house end of story.


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## Open air

Keep making payments,,,


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## Open air

Hey guys hope ye are all staying strong and keeping up the fight. I  have been speaking to a solicitor this week, he firmly believes that tanager are completely listless and clueless and are walking themselves into some awful predicaments!. Hard to believe that a multi million euro operation would be so badly run. Also on the court front, a registrar just last week recommended a tanager customer to engage a solicitor against tanager, seems they are not having everything their own way!!!!@


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## annabanana

Great news


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## Pink123

Great news!


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## annabanana

Anyone know when the Rolf Kane case is back up?


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## Poldara

It's 26th June, as far as I know.


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## annabanana

Cheers


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## Open air

Up on tuesday i think


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## Rambo1

Any Update from today's hearing ?


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## SPARKS12

Did the case go ahead ?


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## Open air

Went ahead, tanager had 6 senior barristers, 4 junior barristers, 4 solicitors, and 6 others from land registry etc. Rolf was on his own, he did v well. Michael mcdowell represented tanager and did most of the talking, a man who really understands the case said to me that mcdowells main point was , if you dont rule in favour of tanager, then they will sue the state and land reg


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## Pink123

Wow.....Why all the legal team from Tanager....to intimidate, to bully.....sounds like that to me.  I really wish Rolf Kane the best.  McDowell's main point as outlined above is outrageous.  Where does this case go from here?


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## Brendan Burgess

I think that it is highly unlikely that Tanager had 10 barristers on the case.  In fact, how would anyone know? There are barristers sitting around the bench that have nothing to do with the case. 



Open air said:


> if you dont rule in favour of tanager, then they will sue the state and land reg



I would be surprised if he made this point.  The judge would ignore it if he did. He might have said that the Land Registry was negligent. 

Brendan


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## IdesofMarch

Brendan Burgess said:


> I think that it is highly unlikely that Tanager had 10 barristers on the case.  In fact, how would anyone know? There are barristers sitting around the bench that have nothing to do with the case.
> 
> 
> 
> I would be surprised if he made this point.  The judge would ignore it if he did. He might have said that the Land Registry was negligent.
> 
> Brendan



Michael McDowell was representing McCann Fitzgerald on behalf of Bank of Scotland, he had a junior as well. Tanager did have two seniors and junior, the PRA had a senior and a junior, there was of course the plethora of associated solicitors from the relevant solicitors offices (A L Goodbody, McCann Fitzgerald and the CSSO instructing them, that were also present in the courtroom. They all had their extensive case files prominently displayed on the table for the three judges to observe (optics and so much for the rain forest). The case was succiently put to the three Judges by the seniors regarding the 5 questions that Justice Noonan of the High Court had asked the Appeals court to determine upon.

Rolf Kane made his reply to the Court in the afternoon. The main thrust of his argument was this (and please correct me, if I am wrong). He argued that the Courts, both the Appeals and High Court had not got the jurisdiction to hear his case. His reasoning was that he believed the Irish transposition of the Cross Border Merger Regulations was being relied upon by the Court, Tanager and the notice parties. He argued that this was a fatal mistake, as the cross border merger regulations which grounded the absorption of BOSI to BOS were in fact, based on UK Cross Border Merger Regulations. He stated that the European Directive and the U.K. transposition of same were compatible in law, but that the Irish Regulations (in particular section 19) was not compatible with the European Directive. If found to be the case, this will have very serious repercussions for any entities that bought loans from BOS.

On the face of it, Mr Kane may have inadvertently opened pandora's box. Maybe the UK regulations are not as compatible to the European Cross Border Regulations as one might first surmise. BOS did not have an Irish banking licence, they do not have a place of business here and are not regulated by the CBI, therefore immediately after the merger, if you had a complaint about the Bank, your only option was to complain the the UK Financial Ombudsman, the question of giving oral evidence in such a complaint would require you to travel! Lots to think about I think!


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## Brendan Burgess

Open air said:


> tanager had 6 senior barristers, 4 junior barristers





IdesofMarch said:


> Tanager did have two seniors and junior



So three barristers and not 10. That is a lot more understandable.

Brendan


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## Open air

IdesofMarch said:


> representing McCann Fitzgerald on behalf on Bank of Scotland, he had a junior as well. Tanager did have two seniors and junior, the PRA had a senior and a junior, there was of course the plethora of associated solicitors from the relevant solicitors offices (A L Goodbody, McCann Fitzgerald and the CSSO instructing them, that were also


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## Open air

Quite alot i think


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## IdesofMarch

Rolf Kane has also issued plenary proceedings against Tanager in the High Court which are running concurrently with Tanager's action against Kane. Yesterday, the Attorney General allowed himself to be joined to these proceedings, so maybe there may be merit in Mr Kane's argument.


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## Open air

Can you explain this please ides


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## IdesofMarch

These cases are currently sub judice. However I can state that the Attorney General only becomes joined in a case where it is felt that there are Constitutional issues to be pleaded upon or possible State liability.


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## annabanana

Thank you Ides for this information. Very clearly written. I am watching closely I am back in December. Rolf seems to really know his stuff fair play to him.


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## Brendan Burgess

annabanana said:


> I am back in December. Rolf seems to really know his stuff



Do not rely on Rolf. 

You can keep your house by paying what you can and trying to get a restructure from Tanager. 

If you can't pay anything at all, maybe Rolf will stave off the repossession by a couple of years. 

Brendan


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## IdesofMarch

Brendan Burgess said:


> Do not rely on Rolf.
> 
> You can keep your house by paying what you can and trying to get a restructure from Tanager.
> 
> If you can't pay anything at all, maybe Rolf will stave off the repossession by a couple of years.
> 
> Brendan




I agree totally with Brendan in this regard, the Courts (and Brendan will back me up in this regard) are NOT issuing possession orders in favour of the banks/funds if you are paying what you can (regular payment that at least cover the interest on the outstanding capital amount). Tanager are doing restructures, but are painfully slow in delivering same to borrowers.


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## Rambo1

Has anyone managed to find out what TANAGER paid for their loan ??

Has anyone had a discounted settlement  offer from TANAGER ??

Has anyone had a settlement offer accepted by TANAGER ??


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## Open air

you of all people should know what tanager are like brendan, you know how they treat their customers, youve seen it first hand.Not everyone is strong enough to deal with this shower


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## Brendan Burgess

Hi Open Air 

I don't really understand your comment? 

You don't have to be strong to pay your mortgage. 

If you are not strong enough to deal with them directly, go through MABS. 

You might not get a deal. But if you try and they refuse you, they have not got a hope of getting an order for possession. 

My point is that this should be everyone's first goal. Kane is only a backstop which might or might not work.

Brendan


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## marcus

Tanager are building their cases on sand.be determined.Be patient.


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## Webster

Section 8 and Schedule 1 of the Land and Conveyancing Law Reform Act 2009, which commenced on 1st December 2009, amended Section 51(2) of the Registration of Title Act 1964. Originally, Section 51(2) of the 1964 Act provided that a transfer of registered land must be “an instrument in the prescribed form (or in such other form as may appear to the Registrar to be sufficient to convey the land)”. The 2009 Act *deleted the words in* *brackets*, thus essentially removing the discretion of the Property Registration Authority to accept forms that do not substantially conform to the prescribed forms. I hope, for BOS PLC and the PRA's sake, that the form submitted by BOS PLC transferring Mr Kane's charge to Tanager was in the prescribed form. PRA form 56 relates to transfer of charge by the *registered owner* of the charge. Would this be an essential filing formality as required by section 19(2) of the Cross Border Merger Regulations so that the Cross Border Merger Regulation can have effect? If this was not done is the Cross Border Merger redundant?


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## IdesofMarch

Webster said:


> Section 8 and Schedule 1 of the Land and Conveyancing Law Reform Act 2009, which commenced on 1st December 2009, amended Section 51(2) of the Registration of Title Act 1964. Originally, Section 51(2) of the 1964 Act provided that a transfer of registered land must be “an instrument in the prescribed form (or in such other form as may appear to the Registrar to be sufficient to convey the land)”. The 2009 Act *deleted the words in* *brackets*, thus essentially removing the discretion of the Property Registration Authority to accept forms that do not substantially conform to the prescribed forms. I hope, for BOS PLC and the PRA's sake, that the form submitted by BOS PLC transferring Mr Kane's charge to Tanager was in the prescribed form. PRA form 56 relates to transfer of charge by the *registered owner* of the charge. Would this be an essential filing formality as required by section 19(2) of the Cross Border Merger Regulations so that the Cross Border Merger Regulation can have effect? If this was not done is the Cross Border Merger redundant?





Tanager is relying on Section 31 of the Register of Titles Act 1964 to give effect to its legal charge, but you are saying they cannot rely on same, as the transfer of the charge to them was not effected by the registered owner of the charge and also, that the transfer of the legal charge was not in the prescribed form (form 56) and that therefore the instrument of charge was not in the required form (section 62(6) and 62(10) Reg of Titles Act 1964 refers). Interesting take and possibly explosive.

Section 19(2) of the Irish Cross Border Merger Regulations state:

“The successor company (BOS Plc) shall comply with filing requirements and any other special formalities required by law (including the law of another EEA State)(In this case Irish filing requirements) for the transfer of the assets and liabilities of the transferor companies to be effective in relation to other persons.”

Therefore if BOS failed to comply with these requirements how can they effectively  transfer these assets on again to  “Tanager”, as BOS Plc are not the registered owners and they did not comply with the Irish filing requirements?


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## Open air

Webster said:


> Section 8 and Schedule 1 of the Land and Conveyancing Law Reform Act 2009, which commenced on 1st December 2009, amended Section 51(2) of the Registration of Title Act 1964. Originally, Section 51(2) of the 1964 Act provided that a transfer of registered land must be “an instrument in the prescribed form (or in such other form as may appear to the Registrar to be sufficient to convey the land)”. The 2009 Act *deleted the words in* *brackets*, thus essentially removing the discretion of the Property Registration Authority to accept forms that do not substantially conform to the prescribed forms. I hope, for BOS PLC and the PRA's sake, that the form submitted by BOS PLC transferring Mr Kane's charge to Tanager was in the prescribed form. PRA form 56 relates to transfer of charge by the *registered owner* of the charge. Would this be an essential filing formality as required by section 19(2) of the Cross Border Merger Regulations so that the Cross Border Merger Regulation can have effect? If this was not done is the Cross Border Merger redundant?


I just showed this to somebody that knows rolf fairly well, he reckons it was in his submissions, but ides of march would probably be able to confirm   this ?


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## IdesofMarch

Open Air, I am mindful that this matter is still currently before the courts to be determined upon, so I cannot give my opinion on the merits of either argument on an open forum, having said this, this is what Justice Noonan said in the Circuit Court Appeal about same;

"18. In the present case, BOS purported to transfer the charge to the plaintiff by the use of Land Registry Form 56 which on its face appears to relate to transfers by the registered owner under s. 64(1) or transfers by the person entitled to be registered as owner under s. 90. Neither category applies to BOS and indeed the use of a Land Registry form in itself suggests that powers exercisable under the 1964 Act were being availed of since presumably otherwise, a Land Registry form would not have been appropriate.

19. All of this begs the question whether BOS, perhaps uniquely, as the unregistered owner of a registered charge was entitled to transfer that charge without first itself becoming registered. This is the core point raised by the defendant in this appeal."

I think Mr Kane added in his submission that the Irish Cross Border Merger Regulations were not compatible with the European Directive and thus infringed upon his consumer and constitutional rights.


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## annabanana

How long will it take to resolve this ? Any ideas?


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## IdesofMarch

Depends on what happens with the Court of Appeal decision and indeed Mr Kane's legal action against Tanager. From observations alone it can been seen that Rolf Kane is a resolute determined individual and not easily brushed aside. If Mr Kane manages to get certain matters referred to the ECJ, it will be a long time.


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## annabanana

So will all Tanager cases effected by this issue be adjourned until this is resolved?


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## Open air

If its in your affidavitt they cant proceed til its resolved


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## annabanana

Thanks Open air.


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