# Delays in rolling out vaccine



## tomdublin

In Germany, Italy, Spain, Greece, France and most other EU countries the first shipment of the vaccine arrived yesterday afternoon and vaccinations started early this morning in hospitals and nursing homes.  In Ireland, the first shipment of the vaccine arrived yesterday afternoon and vaccinations are currently "scheduled" to start on Wednesday.  This five day delay alone may cause needles deaths among the most vulnerable.  I fear it is indicative of the delays, incompetence and institutional indifference that may lie ahead.  There should be more of an outcry about it.  The HSE in particular has enjoyed fairly uncritical coverage in the media throughout this pandemic.


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## Paul O Mahoney

Well today was meant to be "roll out" day across Europe,  some countries went yesterday for probably their own political reasons.
We are now expected to roll out ours on Tuesday.
Personally I don't see the issue here, the vaccine is here and it will be rolled out within our infrastructure and the constraints that we know are present.
As for giving the HSE a free ride, they did what was needed to be done, and did it again within the constraints that are within the system.
This narrative of complaining constantly about this and that is tiresome,  even with the vaccine in circulation deaths will still happen,  cases will probably still be high with peaks and troughs in figures.
Also just because the vaccine is here isn't going to make much of a difference for a long time , we will still need to restrict our contacts and practice good hygiene.


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## moneymakeover

Won't it make a difference to those individuals who receive the vaccine today instead of next week?


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## Paul O Mahoney

moneymakeover said:


> Won't it make a difference to those individuals who receive the vaccine today instead of next week?


And its our elderly in care homes that are top of the list,  the photo ops from Europe were either the prime minister of the Czech Republic or nurses who do need it but are easily transported from A to B .


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## tomdublin

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Well today was meant to be "roll out" day across Europe,  some countries went yesterday for probably their own political reasons.
> We are now expected to roll out ours on Tuesday.
> Personally I don't see the issue here, the vaccine is here and it will be rolled out within our infrastructure and the constraints that we know are present.
> As for giving the HSE a free ride, they did what was needed to be done, and did it again within the constraints that are within the system.
> This narrative of complaining constantly about this and that is tiresome,  even with the vaccine in circulation deaths will still happen,  cases will probably still be high with peaks and troughs in figures.
> Also just because the vaccine is here isn't going to make much of a difference for a long time , we will still need to restrict our contacts and practice good hygiene.


The other 26 EU member states didn't decide to start vaccinating this weekend for "their own political reasons" as you put it but because they think that protecting some of their elderly from contracting Covid is worth sacrificing their health service employees' long weekend.  The HSE's decision to delay by five days would seem to suggest that its priorities are different.  Fair enough, but why defend the indefensible?


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## Paul O Mahoney

tomdublin said:


> The other 26 EU member states didn't decide to start vaccinating this weekend for "their own political reasons" as you put it but because they think that protecting some of their elderly from contracting Covid is worth sacrificing their health service employees' long weekend.  The HSE's decision to delay by five days would seem to suggest that its priorities are different.  Fair enough,  but I don't understand why anyone would want to defend this.


And yet there were no photos of elderly people getting vaccinated,  and those pictures were all over the news channels .
The Czech PM got his not exactly a priority now is it.
How do you suggest we vaccinate the elderly in care homes most of which are in full lockdown?
Frankly you appear to just having a moan about the HSE who sre generally doing a good job, the vaccine isn't just simply administered there are paper trails and recording of tons of information because if something goes wrong with anything it needs to be understood.
And 2 days later isn't going to make much of a difference.


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## Brendan Burgess

Paul O Mahoney said:


> The Czech PM got his not exactly a priority now is it.



I would have thought that the cabinet should be the first to get it followed by the heads of the HSE. 

We need the people in charge to be available and not to be restricted in their movements by Covid.

Of course it would not be politically popular, but it would be the right thing to do.

Brendan


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## Leper

The vaccine is coming to everyone. I would prefer the vaccination process to be orderly and well organised rather than rushed and botched.


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## Paul O Mahoney

Brendan Burgess said:


> I would have thought that the cabinet should be the first to get it followed by the heads of the HSE.
> 
> We need the people in charge to be available and not to be restricted in their movements by Covid.
> 
> Of course it would not be politically popular, but it would be the right thing to do.
> 
> Brendan


Brendan the problem here is that if our cabinet took it first it would be called elitist. 
When MM said he'd wait he was called a " chicken ".
The vast majority really don't care once its done properly and with checks and balances.

We can't get this wrong,  and we have a plan that looks some bit equitable and just might work. 

Getting it done correctly is more important in my view that just getting it done.


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## Brendan Burgess

tomdublin said:


> The HSE in particular has enjoyed fairly uncritical coverage in the media throughout this pandemic.



Hi Tom

A balanced report from Paul Cullen in the Irish Times









						Ireland and Covid-19: What we got right, what we got wrong
					

2020 in review: Our lockdown strategy was blunt and short-term, but mostly it worked




					www.irishtimes.com


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## Leper

Brendan Burgess said:


> Hi Tom
> 
> A balanced report from Paul Cullen in the Irish Times
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ireland and Covid-19: What we got right, what we got wrong
> 
> 
> 2020 in review: Our lockdown strategy was blunt and short-term, but mostly it worked
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.irishtimes.com


What We Got Right - What THEY Got Wrong probably deserves a devoted thread to itself. The Irish Times article is just a filler in the holiday season where the writers get some valued time off.

What We Got Right:- 1. Back in February we knew an outbreak of the coronavirus was inevitable although I remember listening to a doctor on a radio interview saying there was 50% of a chance of Ireland becoming infected. We're a resolute country and the people appeared to be  prepared for a battle. We clapped the Frontline Workers from our doorsteps almost weekly.  We closed our schools fully during March.

2. Restrictions were imposed and presto motor traffic was negligible. Many started to work from home. Pubs closed along with the restaurants and hairdressers etc followed suit.

3. People (well most people) watched out for each other. When "Wear the Mask" instruction came out we embraced it. We used sanitisers when entering whatever shops were allowed to remain open.

4. We watched the news daily and around 6.00pm compared figures of Covid deaths, infection, hospitalisation, Intensive Care Unit admissions etc. The R figure propped up and daily infection rate per 100,000 were noted.

5. Compared to our nearest country we were striding way ahead. The UK government appeared to be getting everything wrong while ours were getting things right.

6. Weddings were cancelled and those that went ahead did so with very limited numbers of guests. Funerals were also confined to low numbers of people attending. Church services went online.

7. We took to the new reality like our lives depended on it and they did.

8. The main thing we got right was Tony Holohan along with NPHET. I should have put this at number 1.

9. The vaccine was acquired early and the rollout happened earlier than what was expected.

10. The country compensated those who lost their jobs because of the pandemic.

What We Got Wrong:- 1. Gardaí were slow to raid pubs that remained trading. Some restaurants sold alcohol only and ignored the €9.00 substantial meal bit. Some pubs opened fully and allowed people to buy pizzas "next door" to be consumed with a load of pints in the pub. Some traders looked for "flaws" in the restrictions and drove on. These were the people who later advised that drinking alcohol in a controlled environment out performed home drinking. Many students ran their weekly/daily parties strangely called Covid Parties.

2. The Famous Golf Outing. Some had the decency to resign. Others refused to resign. Immediately, a "If-they-can-do-it-We-can-do-it" syndrome was reborn. This was exploited by many who couldn't care a whit.

3. We allowed people to travel abroad for their holidays on condition they self isolated on their return. If you can convince this writer that all of them self isolated you're some convincing person. We allowed holidaymakers into Ireland and to roam wherever they wished. We even failed to keep track of them.

4. Further restrictions were imposed during the summer, but motor traffic levels increased from the first set of restrictions. Less people worked from home. Some hairdressers/barbers continued to work from their homes.

5. Along the way Ireland placed Commercial decisions above Health decisions.

6. Days before Tony Holohan returned to work from his Special Leave he advised for immediate stricter restrictions. Mr Varadkar and Mr Martin threw Tony under the bus and informed him that he and NPHET were there in an advisory capacity only. Tony returned to work with his tail between his legs although he got some vocal support from some of us on this forum.

7. The infection rate per day was to be between 50 and 100 before restrictions were eased in the early days of December. The infections continued at 200+ daily and still the restrictions were eased. In the past few days the infections rose to near 1300 in one day alone and are still at an unacceptable level.

8. On too many occasions the government listened to too many business people most of which they should have ignored.

9. Some are saying that we are in Phase 3 of the pandemic. That's wrong we're still in the First Phase; we've just got some things wrong.


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## Paul O Mahoney

Tony Holohan has been the constant even with the issues in his personal life.

The general population got on with it, but as more and more noises sprang up, more and more of our media gave them an echo chamber while ignoring them would have been a better idea. 

Of course the underlying racism on all sides popped up with meat factories and fruit pickers.

Where I am the community joined together and we shared as much information we could,  we shared photos of our area, and we ensured that those in our communities who needed help got it.

Personally I've changed, I feel I'm a better person and "don't worry/stress/fret " as much , got to know great volunteers and realised that the majority really want to make things better for others and I hope that sense of altruism will grow further in our communities and country. 

Maybe a thread on what happens next now vaccines are here, and I doubt this is the last pandemic,  might be interesting.


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## SoylentGreen

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Getting it done correctly is more important in my view that just getting it done.


This suggests that other countries have rushed ahead with their vaccination programme.  Maybe they haven't and were prepared to go as soon as the vaccine arrived. Why weren't we prepared....we knew it was coming after all.


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## SoylentGreen

Leper said:


> The vaccine is coming to everyone. I would prefer the vaccination process to be orderly and well organised rather than rushed and botched.


Listening to Paul Reid on the radio yesterday he was saying that we will have about 10,000 vaccines a week. Leo Varadkar said on the Miriam show that there would be hundreds of thousands a week.
If we only administer 10,000 a week, by May we will have 160,000 vaccinations completed.  Even if we ramp this up as the weeks progress I cannot see our population being fully vaccinated by the end of 2021.  I hope I am wrong.


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## RedOnion

SoylentGreen said:


> Listening to Paul Reid on the radio yesterday he was saying that we will have about 10,000 vaccines a week


Not sure where you are getting the 10,000 per week from?

We got 10,000 and will get another 30,000 next week, and 40,000 per week thereafter.
That's just the Pfizer vaccine.

Schedules are being worked on with the other vaccines.


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## Laramie

RedOnion said:


> We got 10,000 and will get another 30,000 next week, and 40,000 per week thereafter.
> That's just the Pfizer vaccine.


Pfizer needs two shots.  Is it 40,000 of the double shots or 20,000 of the double shots?  If it is 20,000 of the double shots it is going to take forever to vaccinate 5,000,000 people.


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## RedOnion

Laramie said:


> Pfizer needs two shots.  Is it 40,000 of the double shots or 20,000 of the double shots?  If it is 20,000 of the double shots it is going to take forever to vaccinate 5,000,000 people.


Well, 5 years at that rate. But that's the initial rate at which we're getting our allocation of the vaccine. There are other vaccines scheduled to become available very quickly. But it will be the back end of 2021 at the very earliest before there's a level of vaccination anywhere in Europe to achieve 'herd immunity'.
Pfizer only have capacity to produce 1.3bn doses in 2021.


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## Paul O Mahoney

SoylentGreen said:


> This suggests that other countries have rushed ahead with their vaccination programme.  Maybe they haven't and were prepared to go as soon as the vaccine arrived. Why weren't we prepared....we knew it was coming after all.


Basic logistics we have care homes scattered all over Ireland, many in full lockdown, Europe in general has a much better system. 
The original plan was also to get the vaccine after New year's day, but political pressure by Germany and others pushed the approval forward,  we have a plan and frankly I think the HSE has done alright by getting it ready for tomorrow.


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## tomdublin

None of the HSE's explanations for the delay make much sense to me and some seem plainly insulting (apparently implying that other countries were "rushing" and endangering their populations).  In the end, what it seems to boil down to is that some of those in charge didn't seem to want to interrupt their Christmas holidays even if that meant risking additional lives. That's disturbing by itself, and it makes it all the more difficult to convince the population that they should continue to take this disease seriously.  What's also worrying is that no minister had the guts to publicly challenge the HSE over this.


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## Paul O Mahoney

Laramie said:


> Pfizer needs two shots.  Is it 40,000 of the double shots or 20,000 of the double shots?  If it is 20,000 of the double shots it is going to take forever to vaccinate 5,000,000 people.


There will be other vaccines and Biontech will also be producing 500m in 2021....once plant is fitted out etc.
In about 8 weeks from now there will be 4/5 vaccines approved.


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## Paul O Mahoney

tomdublin said:


> None of Paul Reid's explanations for the delay made much sense to me and some were plainly insulting (implying that other countries were "rushing" and endangering their populations).  In the end, what it seems to boil down to is that those in charge didn't seem to want to interrupt their Christmas holidays even if that meant risking additional lives. That's deplorable by itself, and it makes it all the more difficult to convince the population that they should continue to take this disease seriously.  What's also worrying is that no minister had the guts to publicly challenge the HSE over this.


Where did he say that or infer it? You seem to  be critical of the HSE but seem to have no other suggestion on how it should be rolled out.


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## tomdublin

Paul O Mahoney said:


> I never said anything of the sort, I'm reporting this post.


Are you Paul Reid?


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## Paul O Mahoney

tomdublin said:


> Are you Paul Reid?


No I'm not


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## tomdublin

So what's your point?


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## tomdublin

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Where did he say that or infer it? You seem to  be critical of the HSE but seem to have no other suggestion on how it should be rolled out.


I'm referring to the RTE Radio interview yesterday.


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## Prosper

tomdublin said:


> The HSE's decision to delay by five days would seem to suggest that its priorities are different. Fair enough, but why defend the indefensible?


Ireland was not under as much pressure as other countries. The UK covid numbers have been appalling for quite a while and even these numbers can't be trusted. The number of excess deaths in UK far exceed the number of officially reported covid deaths. So any reports coming from the UK authorities as to the degree of side effects or other negative data regarding the vaccine can't be trusted. The authorities here, due to much lower covid numbers, are in a position to wait a bit longer before starting administering the vaccine. They are monitoring very closely the vaccine effects in those other EU countries that have already started vaccinating before starting the process here.


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## Paul O Mahoney

"Vaccine in hospitals first over allergic reaction fears

The HSE's Chief Clinical Officer has said for the vaccine programme to be successful, it is not just a question of speed but of safety."

From RTE, tried to post link but I probably did something wrong.


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## mtk

Israel aims to vaccinate 25% of population in a month; 250,000 had shots so far | The Times of Israel

Just  to put it  in perspective 25% is >2million
Last i heard we would take 2 months to do nursing homes !


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## Prosper

mtk said:


> Just to put it in perspective 25% is >2million
> Last i heard we would take 2 months to do nursing homes !



Making simple comparisons with other countries can be deceptive. Israel is in the middle of an election campaign and so Netanyahu will make whatever promise he needs to make. At the height of the pandemic in late September, Israel was getting close to 7,000 new covid cases per day. Even now it's getting over 3,000 per day and climbing. So there is enormous pressure on Netanyahu to get the vaccinations done asap. He's the one who has claimed that they'll get 25% of the population vaccinated by the end of January and he'll throw all caution to the wind to make that happen. However, I've no doubt that Israel will vaccinate at a faster rate that us. Israel has a population of 9 million in a country that's less than one third the size of RoI and 93% are urban (RoI is 63% urban) so getting the vaccine distributed to more people in less time is much more likely. 
I'd prefer safety over speed.


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## odyssey06

Prosper said:


> Making simple comparisons with other countries can be deceptive. Israel is in the middle of an election campaign and so Netanyahu will make whatever promise he needs to make. At the height of the pandemic in late September, Israel was getting close to 7,000 new covid cases per day. Even now it's getting over 3,000 per day and climbing. So there is enormous pressure on Netanyahu to get the vaccinations done asap...
> I'd prefer safety over speed.



What speed endangering safety have Israel or the EU countries vaccinating before us taken?
Do we have to go slower than our peers to be safe?


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## Paul O Mahoney

mtk said:


> Israel aims to vaccinate 25% of population in a month; 250,000 had shots so far | The Times of Israel
> 
> Just  to put it  in perspective 25% is >2million
> Last i heard we would take 2 months to do nursing homes !


Maybe thats because they have entered another national lockdown,  the virus is out of control and there's a general election in the offing.
A man died yesterday a short time after he was vaccinated,  additionally the 250k shots given are one of 2.
8.6m population excluding the Arabic population.
Even at 500k a week thats 18 weeks at 250k a week is 36 weeks ..........and they are operating 24/7......not much room for delays.
Where did they get 20m doses anyway?

Source simple Google search,  headlines are there.


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## Paul O Mahoney

odyssey06 said:


> What speed endangering safety have Israel or the EU countries vaccinating before us taken?
> Do we have to go slower than our peers to be safe?


A man died in Israel yesterday shortly after getting his vaccine.


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## Paul O Mahoney

Regarding Isreal the election is on the 12th of March and another story by Reuters said the isreal government want to be out of the pandemic by March , convenient.


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## Paul O Mahoney

__





						Israel approves using extra doses in Pfizer vials to vaccinate more people | The Times of Israel
					






					www.timesofisrael.com
				




Thought there only 5 doses in a bottle/vial?
Would we be happy if this was done here?


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## Paul O Mahoney

Apparently Fink the Trump vaccine guru is asking the FDA to ask Pfizer to see if they can get 7 doses out of a vial, but the CDC in the USA says 5 from a vial......hmm who to believe?


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## Ravima

Listening to news at 9am this morning, seems that there is a fear of litigation here in Ireland.


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## RedOnion

Prosper said:


> Israel has a population of 9 million in a country that's less than one third the size of RoI and 93% are urban (RoI is 63% urban) so getting the vaccine distributed to more people in less time is much more likely.
> I'd prefer safety over speed.


It's not really so much to do with distribution, but how quickly they are able to get the vaccine from the manufacturers, so more to do with their money and the upcoming elections than anything else.
Allegedly they already have over 3m doses in the country.


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## Prosper

Getting a population vaccinated quickly is more likely in a population where most people live close to vaccination centers.


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## RedOnion

Prosper said:


> Getting a population vaccinated quickly is more likely in a population where most people live close to vaccination centers.


Yes, but only more likely where they actually have the vaccine...


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## odyssey06

Paul O Mahoney said:


> A man died in Israel yesterday shortly after getting his vaccine.



Same thing could happen here couldn't it?
Nothing whatsoever to suggest it had anything to do with the speed of rollout of the vaccine.

We seem to have to go slower here than elsewhere, citing safety is a red herring unless Paul Reid can cite specific corners being cut elsewhere that are not being cut here.


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## Paul O Mahoney

odyssey06 said:


> Same thing could happen here couldn't it?
> Nothing whatsoever to suggest it had anything to do with the speed of rollout of the vaccine.
> 
> We seem to have to go slower here than elsewhere, citing safety is a red herring unless Paul Reid can cite specific corners being cut elsewhere that are not being cut here.


Never said it was associated with their roll out just saying it happened.
So safety isn't an issue for you, strange position to take, my mother in laws care home contacted my wife today to explain what exactly will be put in place in order to protect the "clients " and the staff during the time the vaccine will be administered its a long list and the HSE must have a fairly long list too.
Safety is paramount and as Colm Henry said this morning safety is the number 1 item to be considered above all else and that's why its being rolled out in hospitals first just in case there is an issue and it can be resolved and learnt from.
The manufacturers have said safety was the priority when developing the vaccine,  48 hrs isn't a huge amount of time to wait.

Another thing had the EU not brought forward the approval it would be next week before any roll could happen.

Can't understand why people are getting so annoyed by this .


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## Laramie

Ravima said:


> Listening to news at 9am this morning, seems that there is a fear of litigation here in Ireland.


So why wasn't the issue of consent sorted out months ago?


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## Laramie

Is it true that Ireland will only be administering the vaccine 5 days a week from 9 am until 5 pm?


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## odyssey06

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Never said it was associated with their roll out just saying it happened.
> So safety isn't an issue for you, strange position to take, my mother in laws care home contacted my wife today to explain what exactly will be put in place in order to protect the "clients " and the staff during the time the vaccine will be administered its a long list and the HSE must have a fairly long list too.
> Safety is paramount and as Colm Henry said this morning safety is the number 1 item to be considered above all else and that's why its being rolled out in hospitals first just in case there is an issue and it can be resolved and learnt from.
> The manufacturers have said safety was the priority when developing the vaccine,  48 hrs isn't a huge amount of time to wait.
> Another thing had the EU not brought forward the approval it would be next week before any roll could happen.
> Can't understand why people are getting so annoyed by this .



Not sure why the death in Israel was mentioned here on this thread then?
There was a clear implication from the context of how the death was raised that it somehow connected to the speed of rollout
Now it appears it was a total red herring though of course an individual tragedy.

A bit like the issue of 'safety' here explaining why we are slower than our peers when it comes to roll out.
Zero evidence has been presented that other EU countries have put safety at issue by rolling out vaccines quicker than we have.
Absolutely nothing, not a single shred of evidence or explanation or indication has been proferred as to why we have to be slower than our peers to be safe.

We're already falling behind after 2-3 days, the concern is this trend will be continued into the weeks and months ahead and we fall further and further behind in the vaccination schedule and leave vulnerable people needlessly exposed. Safety is paramount cuts both ways, every delay means people needlessly exposed to this virus.


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## Laramie

Paul O Mahoney said:


> The manufacturers have said safety was the priority when developing the vaccine, 48 hrs isn't a huge amount of time to wait.


I notice that they are all using the word "safety" as an excuse for their delay in rolling out the vaccine.  I was looking at EuroNews today and lots of countries on the ball vaccinating people. I am sure that they are doing it safely.

Now we are being told that it will take until the end of 2021 before we are all vaccinated. Last week we were told that it would be done by the end of May, then we were told by late summer.


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## Prosper

odyssey06 said:


> citing safety is a red herring unless Paul Reid can cite specific corners being cut elsewhere that are not being cut here.


Unreasonable to suggest he should do that. If he believes that others are moving too fast or cutting corners he's not going to say it (EU solidarity etc etc). I don't know why we're starting the vaccinations a couple of days later than some others but maybe it has to do with the fact that other countries have not kept the virus under control as well as we have here and so, because of the soaring cases and deaths they are under pressure to act quickly.


Ravima said:


> Listening to news at 9am this morning, seems that there is a fear of litigation here in Ireland.


I didn't hear the news this morning so I don't know what the nature of this fear of litigation is here. However, we have become a very litigious nation and the hysteria of many, especially in the media but also elsewhere, only contributes to this. I recall the awful disinformation during the Cervical Smear controversy, that ended up in the perception that a smear test should be virtually a diagnostic test (internationally it's accepted that there are about 30% false negatives/false positives). Then this inaccurate "perception" ended up with people thinking that a "false negative" meant that an actionable "mistake" had been made. Professional journalists were using the term "mistake" or "error" with regard to false negatives. Subsequently I think I'm right in saying that a judge ruled that test results should not be given unless there was effective certainty (I'm open to correction on this point). The HSE and the medical profession are petrified of legal actions costing many millions. Maybe this is also a factor in the couple of day delay here? What would be the case if people with certain underlying conditions started to become very ill or die due to a reaction to the vaccine? Would the lawyers be all over it? If the delay here is due to the authorities here closely monitoring reports from other countries for a couple of days then I for one would understand that. If there's a lot of people suffering side effects longer than a couple of days then that would be a real concern.


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## Paul O Mahoney

odyssey06 said:


> Not sure why the death in Israel was mentioned here on this thread then?
> There was a clear implication from the context of how the death was raised that it somehow connected to the speed of rollout
> Now it appears it was a total red herring though of course an individual tragedy.
> 
> A bit like the issue of 'safety' here explaining why we are slower than our peers when it comes to roll out.
> Zero evidence has been presented that other EU countries have put safety at issue by rolling out vaccines quicker than we have.
> Absolutely nothing, not a single shred of evidence or explanation or indication has been proferred as to why we have to be slower than our peers to be safe.
> 
> We're already falling behind after 2-3 days, the concern is this trend will be continued into the weeks and months ahead and we fall further and further behind in the vaccination schedule and leave vulnerable people needlessly exposed. Safety is paramount cuts both ways, every delay means people needlessly exposed to this virus.


Have we seen or heard of any other fatality?,we  discussed in detail before the roll out that there were going to be issues and this is an example of one.
Safety does cut both ways and like the producing of the vaccines its the experts that we placed our faith in ,and with reason as they understand the situation much better than anyone debating here or elsewhere.

For the vaccine to be effective and for it to have a significant effect on the general population will take many months and 2/3 days isn't going to change that. 

The UK approved the vaccine on a Wednesday and rolled out the following Monday/Tuesday,  US likewise it took a few days I just don't understand why we need to follow a few countries who rolled out immediately its not a sport tournament.

 We all know the issues we have in our health system and we also know that there are higher risks involved due to that fact.

I really am at a loss to understand why our strategy of roll out is causing so much angst, and saving more lives really isn't a valid one as we know preventing close contacts is more effective now than any vaccine.


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## Paul O Mahoney

Laramie said:


> I notice that they are all using the word "safety" as an excuse for their delay in rolling out the vaccine.  I was looking at EuroNews today and lots of countries on the ball vaccinating people. I am sure that they are doing it safely.
> 
> Now we are being told that it will take until the end of 2021 before we are all vaccinated. Last week we were told that it would be done by the end of May, then we were told by late summer.


We don't need all of us to be vaccinated 70% plus would be a huge achievement and it should develop a fairly high herd immunity level. 
Like everything else with the virus we simply don't know if 70% immunity will be enough to stem the spread of the virus.

The roll out of the vaccine and its effects will not be seen for months and that has been widely reported by all stakeholders,  and if its the summer or autumn what difference does it make? the important thing here is that we have vaccines and they will over time eliminate the virus.


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## Laramie

Paul O Mahoney said:


> The roll out of the vaccine and its effects will not be seen for months and that has been widely reported by all stakeholders, and if its the summer or autumn what difference does it make? the important thing here is that we have vaccines and they will over time eliminate the virus.


I can't believe that I am reading this. The countries businesses are on their knees. People are dying daily. We should be vaccinating all of our citizens as fast as we can, seven days a week and not waiting on the HSE to get it's act together. Something that should have been done months ago.

I read today that nursing homes are being scheduled for their vaccinations on the 11th January.  Why not immediately?


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## SlurrySlump

Laramie said:


> Is it true that Ireland will only be administering the vaccine 5 days a week from 9 am until 5 pm?


I just get the feeling that because the Pfizer vaccine is a two dose vaccine, the HSE doesn't have the IT ability to track those vaccinated.  I hope that all their delays are not down to them backing one of the one dose vaccines because they are easier to administer and keep track of.


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## SlurrySlump

Laramie said:


> I read today that nursing homes are being scheduled for their vaccinations on the 11th January. Why not immediately?


Another quote today says that nursing homes will not be fully vaccinated until the end of February.  Is this a joke?


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## Leper

Laramie said:


> I can't believe that I am reading this. The countries businesses are on their knees. People are dying daily. We should be vaccinating all of our citizens as fast as we can, seven days a week and not waiting on the HSE to get it's act together. Something that should have been done months ago.
> 
> I read today that nursing homes are being scheduled for their vaccinations on the 11th January.  Why not immediately?



1. A relatively small amount of the Pfizer Vaccine has been delivered to Ireland todate. Only the amount of people per vaccine unit available can receive it. If you have only 10,000 units of vaccine there is no point in having 25,000 in the initial queue.
2. Whoever gets the Pfizer Vaccine must receive a 2nd dose about a month or so later. Hence "fully vaccinated" taking some time.
3. Strict records must be kept and "Covid Vaccine Passports" must be issued. These are important documents and should not be treated like waste paper.
4. In the television news last night a doctor explained (a) The vaccine has only the lifespan of a few days once taken from deep-freeze and (b) Once ready to inject the lifespan reduces to a few hours. Therefore, amounts of people to be vaccinated must be policed and some decent order must be maintained.
5. In today's radio news a Cork doctor (CUH) informed that hospital staff dealing with Covid patients must be vaccinated first. I have no truck with this. 
6. Next in line are the Care Homes. It's the elderly who are at most risk. I have no truck with this either. But, the process must be executed properly.
7. Yes Commercial interests are being delayed re the vaccine. The last thing Ireland Ltd needs is Collateral Damage. All in good time things will improve. Let's get this vaccination process done in a proper way.


----------



## RedOnion

SlurrySlump said:


> Another quote today says that nursing homes will not be fully vaccinated until the end of February.  Is this a joke?


No, it's not a joke.

There are 70,000 staff and residents. There has to be 3 weeks between first and 2nd shot. They need 140,000 vaccinations to do this.

Can we see your schedule of when it could be possible, based in the availability of the vaccine?



Laramie said:


> Now we are being told that it will take until the end of 2021 before we are all vaccinated. Last week we were told that it would be done by the end of May, then we were told by late summer.


Where was May referenced?
The EU is only scheduled to receive the last of their order from Pfizer in September, and that's only 200m doses. Yes, there are other vaccines, but one of them isn't expected to be authorised until July.


I think if we're going to have a sensible thread here, we need to separate what the HSE can and can't control.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Laramie said:


> I can't believe that I am reading this. The countries businesses are on their knees. People are dying daily. We should be vaccinating all of our citizens as fast as we can, seven days a week and not waiting on the HSE to get it's act together. Something that should have been done months ago.
> 
> I read today that nursing homes are being scheduled for their vaccinations on the 11th January.  Why not immediately?


Whats so unbelievable? People will continue to die from Covid even with the vaccine. 
The vaccine rollout for the first few months will primarily be elderly, healthcare workers and people with underlying health issues.

Are you willing to pay,  via taxes,for all those extra hrs that you perceive are needed?

How can you plan for something that didn't exist "months ago" the vaccine we have didn't get approval until last week for our use.

The communication regarding care homes rollout I've seen is the 4th of January.
How do you suggest that the vaccine be rolled out to almost 600 care homes scattered throughout the country and do it in a safe and controlled way?

I too can't believe what I'm reading as it would appear that your needs or wishes seem to be more important that those of the rest of the country.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

SlurrySlump said:


> Another quote today says that nursing homes will not be fully vaccinated until the end of February.  Is this a joke?


How is it a joke?  approximately 600 homes with thousands of staff,  not to mention we have 10,000 doses now which will be used up by nurses and doctors who have given everything to help contain this virus since last March , some even their lives.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

SlurrySlump said:


> I just get the feeling that because the Pfizer vaccine is a two dose vaccine, the HSE doesn't have the IT ability to track those vaccinated.  I hope that all their delays are not down to them backing one of the one dose vaccines because they are easier to administer and keep track of.


Every vaccine will require 2 doses to achieve the stated efficiency levels right now.
What vaccine has one dose?


----------



## tomdublin

Looks like it will be Monday to Friday 9-5.  After the initial public outcry has subsided its likely that noone will face any consequences as per usual.  It's depressing.


----------



## joe sod

Laramie said:


> So why wasn't the issue of consent sorted out months ago?


maybe they believed all the "experts" who were saying that a vaccine was years away. Its interesting though that Tony Holohan has barely discussed the vaccine and when probed by media was anything but positive.
The government could sort out the consent issue with emergency legislation anyway, afterall they have exercised enormous powers since the start of the pandemic forcing businesses to close and they never got bogged down in "consent" or legalities with that.


----------



## Leper

On the issue of "consent" we live in Ireland not the Peoples Republic of China. While I want the vaccine asap, I respect the right of those who don't. But, please, let them not get in the way of those who want the vaccine.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

joe sod said:


> maybe they believed all the "experts" who were saying that a vaccine was years away. Its interesting though that Tony Holohan has barely discussed the vaccine and when probed by media was anything but positive.
> The government could sort out the consent issue with emergency legislation anyway, afterall they have exercised enormous powers since the start of the pandemic forcing businesses to close and they never got bogged down in "consent" or legalities with that.


You advocate taking away personal rights by legislating? 
People have a right to not get the vaccines.


----------



## Grizzly

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Every vaccine will require 2 doses to achieve the stated efficiency levels right now.
> What vaccine has one dose?


Isn't Johnson & Johnson and Merck working on a one dose vaccine with Johnson and Johnson almost ready to roll theirs out?


----------



## Grizzly

Paul O Mahoney said:


> How is it a joke? approximately 600 homes with thousands of staff,


I think there are 437 homes. Just did a quick Google search.


----------



## Grizzly

Paul O Mahoney said:


> we have 10,000 doses now which will be used up by nurses and doctors who have given everything to help contain this virus since last March , some even their lives.


All the more reason why we should have treble the amount of doses so we can quickly protect these people.


----------



## joe sod

Paul O Mahoney said:


> You advocate taking away personal rights by legislating?


Yes I agree people have a right not to get a vaccine, but if they "consent" to receive the vaccine then they can't bring litigation down the road to sue the government, thats the bit that should have been ironed out before now. If businesses can be forced to close without full compensation and that is ok, whats the big problem with them forcing people to give up the right to sue for the greater good of widespread vaccination. If it is not an issue for other countries, why is it an issue here?


----------



## Grizzly

Paul O Mahoney said:


> I just don't understand why we need to follow a few countries who rolled out immediately its not a sport tournament.


I think that it was more than a few countries. I read that Italy, Austria, Czech Republic, Germany, Hungary, Slovakia and France to name just a few.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Grizzly said:


> I think there are 437 homes. Just did a quick Google search.


You searched wrong then.


----------



## Prosper

Grizzly said:


> I think there are 437 homes. Just did a quick Google search.


580


Grizzly said:


> All the more reason why we should have treble the amount of doses so we can quickly protect these people.


How do you propose that we triple the amount of vaccine we're getting?


----------



## SlurrySlump

Paul O Mahoney said:


> You searched wrong then.



Home - Nursing Homes Ireland (nhi.ie)


----------



## RedOnion

Paul O Mahoney said:


> You searched wrong then.


It'd be one way to get the vaccination done quicker - only cover the ones that show up in an incorrect Google search!


----------



## RedOnion

SlurrySlump said:


> Home - Nursing Homes Ireland (nhi.ie)


Are we only vaccinating those in Private and voluntary run nursing homes?...


----------



## Prosper

SlurrySlump said:


> Home - Nursing Homes Ireland (nhi.ie)


NHI do not represent all nursing homes.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

SlurrySlump said:


> Home - Nursing Homes Ireland (nhi.ie)


Still incorrect


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Grizzly said:


> Isn't Johnson & Johnson and Merck working on a one dose vaccine with Johnson and Johnson almost ready to roll theirs out?


Johnson Johnson have just started phase 3 trials with interim data from end of January start of February,  long way to go for J&J , Merck their own estimates indicate summer at the earliest.


----------



## Kimmagegirl

Prosper said:


> How do you propose that we triple the amount of vaccine we're getting?


An interesting article here about who is getting what.  Can we not source some of our own extra vaccines?

One-quarter of the world may not get a Covid-19 vaccine until 2022 (statnews.com)


----------



## Kimmagegirl

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Johnson Johnson have just started phase 3 trials with interim data from end of January start of February, long way to go for J&J , Merck their own estimates indicate summer at the earliest.


But are these one dose vaccines?  You said that "every" vaccine will require two doses?


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Kimmagegirl said:


> But are these one dose vaccines?  You said that "every" vaccine will require two doses?


No I didn't the vaccines we have now are two doses.


----------



## Kimmagegirl

RedOnion said:


> There are 70,000 staff and residents. There has to be 3 weeks between first and 2nd shot. They need 140,000 vaccinations to do this.


When the Government tells us that we have received 10,000 vaccines, is that 5000 of two doses or 10,000 of two doses?


----------



## RedOnion

Kimmagegirl said:


> An interesting article here about who is getting what.  Can we not source some of our own extra vaccines?


Not if we want access to the EU ordered vaccines. So, we could negotiate our own price, pay double, and wait another year.

Part of the idea of the EU setting up a single procurement process for these vaccines was to stop EU nations competing with each other to get it first.



Kimmagegirl said:


> When the Government tells us that we have received 10,000 vaccines, is that 5000 of two doses or 10,000 of two doses?


 enough for 5,000 x 2 shots.


----------



## Kimmagegirl

Paul O Mahoney said:


> No I didn't the vaccines we have now are two doses.



This is what you said.



Paul O Mahoney said:


> Every vaccine will require 2 doses to achieve the stated efficiency levels right now.
> What vaccine has one dose?



I think what you said is very clear.


----------



## Odea

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Are you willing to pay, via taxes,for all those extra hrs that you perceive are needed?


I am willing.


----------



## Odea

Paul O Mahoney said:


> How do you suggest that the vaccine be rolled out to almost 600 care homes scattered throughout the country and do it in a safe and controlled way?


Could this not have been planned a few months back. We had plenty of notice.
Starting the rollout to nursing homes in January seems to a little late to me.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Kimmagegirl said:


> This is what you said.
> 
> 
> 
> I think what you said is very clear.


I know what I said "now" seems to be tripping you up.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Odea said:


> Could this not have been planned a few months back. We had plenty of notice.
> Starting the rollout to nursing homes in January seems to a little late to me.


How do you plan for something you don't have or may never have. The vaccine,  well Pfizers and Biontech they didn't even know a few months ago.


----------



## valery

according to Irish Times the schedule will be as follows
”Smaller nursing homes with 30 residents or less will require one team of four vaccinators, with all doses delivered in one day. Larger facilities with more than 120 residents would take three days to deliver the vaccine.

working 9-5, averages around 1 person vaccinated per hour, per vaccinator.


----------



## Bluefin

If we vax. approx 100k per week we won't have population vax. before September...I'm excluding the 15-24 age group which are another 1.7 million people as vax is only qualified for 16+(pfizer), moderna (18+)


Age groupNumber of residents in thousands0 - 14 years1,008.915 - 24 years618.125 - 44 years1,39745 - 64 years1,201.265 years and over696.3


----------



## RedOnion

Bluefin said:


> If we vax. approx 100k per week we won't have population vax. before September...


No, to vaccinate 3.8m people, they'd actually need to be doing over 200k per week, to hit September to account for the 2nd shot.


----------



## Bluefin

True based on 2 doses but some of the other vaccines will be one dose and pressure may come on the reg. Authorities to reduce the pfizer and monderna vaccine to one dose only (efficacy will be 90% versus 95%) due to supply shortages and the number of cases /deaths it could possibly reduce...


----------



## odyssey06

Paul O Mahoney said:


> How do you plan for something you don't have or may never have. The vaccine,  well Pfizers and Biontech they didn't even know a few months ago.



Exactly. They had several *months *in which to plan for the presumptive approval of the vaccines that were going through regulatory approval i.e. contingency planning.


----------



## Prosper

odyssey06 said:


> Exactly. They had several *months *in which to plan for the presumptive approval of the vaccines that were going through regulatory approval i.e. contingency planning.


And they did.


----------



## tomdublin

Prosper said:


> And they did.


It always leads back to the comparison between Ireland and other EU countries.  They knew and didn't know the same things at the same time, faced the same uncertainties and received (and will receive) equal amounts of the same vaccine(s) on a per capita basis at exactly the same time.  The only difference seems to be that those other EU countries have governments and health services that prioritize the lives of their citizens over work-life balance concerns of their public servants and employees whereas the Irish government and health service seem to have other priorities - despite all the spin, ministerial photo ops, and self-aggrandizing HSE radio ads.   And until the Irish electorate demands the same quality of public services enjoyed by citizens in other European democracies this is not going to change.


----------



## Prosper

tomdublin said:


> equal amounts of the same vaccine(s) on a per capita basis at exactly the same time.


Vaccine allocation in the EU is not done on a simple per capita basis. For example age profile is taken into account. Based on 2016 population analysis Ireland has the smallest percentage of it's population in the 65 and over age group (13.2%) and so we'll get less vaccines per capita than the other countries.


----------



## tomdublin

Prosper said:


> Vaccine allocation in the EU is not done on a simple per capita basis. For example age profile is taken into account. Based on 2016 population analysis Ireland has the smallest percentage of it's population in the 65 and over age group (13.2%) and so we'll get less vaccines per capita than the other countries.


Point taken.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

odyssey06 said:


> Exactly. They had several *months *in which to plan for the presumptive approval of the vaccines that were going through regulatory approval i.e. contingency planning.


And if the vaccines failed or they were found to be toxic or a multitude of other issues with the vaccine this expenditure would be excusable how?
There was no guarantee that a vaccine was going to be made in that time period none its the first time in history the technology has been used.
How can anyone contingency plan when they nobody knew globally *any* of the risks, or how many vaccinewere going to be allocated/ produced or who indeed created a vaccine first and if that vaccine would be available .
To contingency plan properly you need facts or at least some basis to base your plan on, a few months ago that was literally a blank page , the second page was covered was full if "what ifs" and probabilities etc, meanwhile the virus was continuing to trot around the world, what do you think the priorities were, certainly weren't on "what ifs" or "maybes "

Its very difficult to create a Plan B , which in simple terms is contingency planning if you don't have or can't create a Plan A


----------



## odyssey06

Paul O Mahoney said:


> And if the vaccines failed or they were found to be toxic or a multitude of other issues with the vaccine this expenditure would be excusable how?
> There was no guarantee that a vaccine was going to be made in that time period none its the first time in history the technology has been used.
> How can anyone contingency plan when they nobody knew globally *any* of the risks, or how many vaccinewere going to be allocated/ produced or who indeed created a vaccine first and if that vaccine would be available .
> To contingency plan properly you need facts or at least some basis to base your plan on, a few months ago that was literally a blank page , the second page was covered was full if "what ifs" and probabilities etc, meanwhile the virus was continuing to trot around the world, what do you think the priorities were, certainly weren't on "what ifs" or "maybes "



I'm not sure what point you are arguing for or against.

Just pointing out that's exactly what contingency planning is for.
They knew for months there were candidate vaccines in development requiring cold storage at advanced stages of the regulatory process.
That rollout to a network of care homes would be needed.
That consent issues would need to be addressed.
That the vaccines in development were multiple dose and would require data systems to track distribution per person.

Expenditure?
We can spend hundreds of millions each months keeping businesses closed during the pandemic...
We could spend millions on dodgy PPE orders and ventilator deals in spring but nothing to prepare for presumptive approval of cold storage vaccines in development?
Nope.
Doesn't stand up to a scrutiny or comparison with our peers in the EU.

Given such stakes of course you should be planning for possibility of a multi-dose, cold storage vaccine.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

odyssey06 said:


> I'm not sure what point you are arguing for or against.
> 
> Just pointing out that's exactly what contingency planning is for.
> They knew for months there were candidate vaccines in development requiring cold storage at advanced stages of the regulatory process.
> That rollout to a network of care homes would be needed.
> That consent issues would need to be addressed.
> 
> Expenditure?
> We can spend hundreds of millions each months keeping businesses closed during the pandemic...
> We could spend millions on dodgy PPE orders and ventilator deals in spring but nothing to prepare for presumptive approval of cold storage vaccines in development?
> Nope.
> Doesn't stand up to a scrutiny or comparison with our peers in the EU.


They knew nothing until Pfizer announced on the 10th of November,  any other releases were at the end of stage 1 and 2 which merely gave the information that they were able to program the genetic sequence into the RNA and it appeared safe......Pfizer then embarked on a huge phase 3 trial and the results were made public on the 10th of November,  with details of storage, manufacturing etc that week. 


Yes expenditure matters and if they invested in any type of storage and that turned out to be wrong it would have added another line to your list. 

It might not stand up to your scrutiny but that's not whats important. 

If you want to show how to contingency plan with little or no data , I'm happy to learn, but 20 years of doing it in various forms I can't see how it can be done without data, facts or educated guesses.


----------



## odyssey06

33,683 vaccinations have been administered to care home residents and frontline Health & Social Care staff in Northern Ireland.


----------



## Prosper

odyssey06 said:


> They knew for months there were candidate vaccines in development requiring cold storage at advanced stages of the regulatory process.
> That rollout to a network of care homes would be needed.
> That consent issues would need to be addressed.
> That the vaccines in development were multiple dose and would require data systems to track distribution per person.


I'd like to know what actual facts you know to back up your implication that these issues were not taken into account?


odyssey06 said:


> We can spend hundreds of millions each months keeping businesses closed during the pandemic...


Should we not have done this?


odyssey06 said:


> We could spend millions on dodgy PPE orders and ventilator deals in spring but nothing to prepare for presumptive approval of cold storage vaccines in development?


Every country I'm aware of had problems sourcing PPE due to unprecedented global demand. The UK was far worse in this regard and I think I heard recently that the UK have passed 80,000 excess deaths. We spent "nothing to prepare for presumptive approval of cold storage vaccines in development?" How do you know this?


odyssey06 said:


> Doesn't stand up to a scrutiny or comparison with our peers in the EU.


Can you back up this accusation?


odyssey06 said:


> 33,683 vaccinations have been administered to care home residents and frontline Health & Social Care staff in Northern Ireland.


The UK approved the Pfizer vaccine ahead of everyone. They were and still are in a dreadful state in comparison. The UK is getting over 40,000 new covid cases per day now and growing. With Covid out of control they were desperate to approve the vaccine and so the regulating agency in the UK gave a "temporary use authorisation" in order to start vaccinating people asap.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

There seems to be a degree of frustration and anxiety circulating and that is understandable. 
I'm very much a glass half full type and tend to look at the optimistic side of things more than the negative side.
As we leave the year, chronologically, its a good time to look back and see how the situation is in regards the pandemic. 

When all this kicked off here in February/March we were faced with a situation that there seemed to be a sense of helplessness as we knew nothing of what lay ahead, the virus had arrived and nobody really knew what the consequences such as deaths of citizens, or the effect on the economy or indeed our lives and futures.

The decision was made to lockdown the country in its totality with everything bar essential businesses allowed to open, we listened intently to daily updates and really got on with it as a population. 

We lost people,  we had thousands in and out of hospital,  we cheered our essential workers who literally put their lives in danger for the better good, and by the end of May we were returning to something approaching normal. 
News began to seep out that the science world had been working silently and there was hope that a vaccine or treatments might be in place sooner rather than the years it normally took to develop such medication. 

Summer came and went with intermittent local lockdown but in general people got on with whatever they could. 

In the Autumn schools reopened and the scientists were making noises that the work on vaccines was progressing and hope was rising that there might be a solution on the horizon. 
The unity shown earlier in the year was evaporating the blame game had begun in earnest and the ludicrous side of humanity began to show its face online and on our streets,  meanwhile the virus had regained its foothold and the circle of lockdowns and reopening began.
Cases and deaths once again rose, the majority simply got on with it again doing their best to protect themselves and their communities despite the constant barrage of false narratives being posted online.

We slowly became polarised and the virus continued to infect and kill people, but that fact became secondary our hospitals began to fill up again.

In September data from the vaccine development began to be issued and the news was positive,  with the real chance that viable vaccines would be in our communities late this year or early 2021. 
November arrived and the first set of data from Pfizer/BioNTech showed that there vaccines were over 90% effective in protecting people from Covid,  a week later Moderna issued even better effectiveness and another vaccine Astrazeneca/ Oxford University showed more promise.

Details of how the vaccines work were debated extensively with some bemoaning the speed of the development and dragging up false and unproven theories and constantly making noise.
The virus meanwhile was again infecting more and more with impunity .

In December the UK approved the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine and finally on the 8th of December it was injected into an elderly woman in Coventry and hope got a boost.
However the virus found new ways of infecting the world and is now , today , probably going to be more infectious that all the other waves we have witnessed but that doesn't mean that we are in a worse place,  in fact we are probably in a far better place than 9 months ago, we have vaccines that are safe and are being rolled out, this is something that many thought impossible 10 months ago.
But this isn't good enough for some,  we have created a new class " the moaning class" where the best efforts of others is a constant target for ridiculous ill-informed attacks including personal attacks on people who have given it everything, everyday for everyone. 

We are in a far better place now than we were 10 months ago and the road ahead will not be carefree, but people will have to be pragmatic and careful if we are to return to lives that might be described as normal. 

P.S. Astrazeneca/Oxford vaccine has just been approved by the UK regulator.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

As Astrazenecas vaccine has been approved in the UK no doubt there will be expectations that we will get it soon, unfortunately it appears that Astrazeneca haven't even submitted an application to the EMA and its now thought that its unlikely that the vaccine will be approved in January. 

However this is great news and should quicken the journey out of the abnormality in our lives. The UK have order 100m doses with another 30 million from Pfizer/BioNTech and its forecasted that Astrazeneca will produce 3bn doses in 2021.


----------



## Odea

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Every vaccine "will".



Sorry but I am on the side of Kimmage Girl here. You also said the word "will".  Every vaccine will not require two jabs. Those that are available "now" which is basically one vaccine requires two jabs. Can you even admit that other vaccines may not require two jabs?

I read today, whether right or wrong the following

Oxford/AstraZeneca Covid-19 vaccine approved for use in UK (thejournal.ie) 

This is good news. The U.K. has ordered 100 million of these.

QUOTE="Paul O Mahoney, post: 1697995, member: 109671"]
Are you willing to pay, via taxes,for all those extra hrs that you perceive are needed?
[/QUOTE]

I would also be happy to pay extra taxes for the staff needed to get one of these.


----------



## BOXtheFOX

We delayed the roll out of the vaccine. Then we brought the rollout forward by one day, that actually turned out to be a half day. We saw "Annie" get her jab, how many other people got the jab yesterday?

If they cannot get in to the nursing homes to vaccinate people because of consent problems, I hope that the vaccines don't end up in a fridge waiting.


----------



## BOXtheFOX

We get the daily Covid numbers. Let us have the daily vaccination numbers also.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Odea said:


> Sorry but I am on the side of Kimmage Girl here. You also said the word "will".  Every vaccine will not require two jabs. Those that are available "now" which is basically one vaccine requires two jabs. Can you even admit that other vaccines may not require two jabs?
> 
> I read today, whether right or wrong the following
> 
> Oxford/AstraZeneca Covid-19 vaccine approved for use in UK (thejournal.ie)
> 
> This is good news. The U.K. has ordered 100 million of these.
> 
> QUOTE="Paul O Mahoney, post: 1697995, member: 109671"]
> Are you willing to pay, via taxes,for all those extra hrs that you perceive are needed?




Every vaccine that is now available require two jabs and the third Moderna also require two jabs.
This is a fact that can't be disputed.
What other vaccines may or may not need is a matter of speculation as none of them are available and some might never be available.


----------



## Leper

1. We have a vaccine but nothing like the numbers we need. [Problem 1]
2. Before we administer the vaccine "permission" must be sought for its use [Problem 2]*
3. Strict Records must be kept and a "Covid" passport issued to recipients of the vaccine.

*Let's hope that those who do not wish to avail of the vaccine won't delay the vaccination for those who do.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Leper said:


> 1. We have a vaccine but nothing like the numbers we need. [Problem 1]
> 2. Before we administer the vaccine "permission" must be sought for its use [Problem 2]*
> 3. Strict Records must be kept and a "Covid" passport issued to recipients of the vaccine.
> 
> *Let's hope that those who do not wish to avail of the vaccine won't delay the vaccination for those who do.



Well supply will increase over the next few weeks and months. 

Consent should always be sought and a person's right to refuse respected.

Strict recording procedures are a part of any vaccine roll out , can't see this as an issue. Vaccine passports I certainly would not advocate and shouldn't be considered. 

If people don't want the vaccine I can't see how this could be a hindrance to vaccinating those who do, if anything it might speed up vaccinating the rest.


----------



## BOXtheFOX

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Every vaccine will require 2 doses to achieve the stated efficiency levels right now.


No. As others have pointed out not every vaccine will require 2 doses to achieve the stated efficiency levels right now. Some will only require one dose.
(The current vaccine requires two doses but others are on the way)
These vaccines have been talked about for some time. Why is it that you cannot accept this or comments that other people are making about different things?


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

BOXtheFOX said:


> No. As others have pointed out not every vaccine will require 2 doses to achieve the stated efficiency levels right now. Some will only require one dose.
> (The current vaccine requires two doses but others are on the way)
> These vaccines have been talked about for some time. Why is it that you cannot accept this or comments that other people are making about different things?


Name a vaccine that is now approved anywhere that isn't a double dose. 

Actually name any vaccine that requires only one dose.....

I don't have to accept anything what other people are talking about,  the facts are there.


----------



## SlugBreath

Paul O Mahoney said:


> *Every* vaccine *will* require 2 doses to achieve the stated efficiency levels right now.



Your comment above states that "every" vaccine "will" require two doses. You are talking about other future vaccines here, not just the one recently approved. This is obvious in your comment. Why are you now trying to obfuscate with your subsequent comments.


----------



## SlugBreath

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Vaccine passports I certainly would not advocate and shouldn't be considered.


I got several jabs when I visited China a few years back. When I got my jabs I was given a document stating that I had been given these. It was part of the procedure.
Why do you have a problem with people getting a similar type document for Covid?


----------



## SlugBreath

Paul O Mahoney said:


> But this isn't good enough for some, we have created a new class " the moaning class" where the best efforts of others is a constant target for ridiculous ill-informed attacks including personal attacks on people who have given it everything, everyday for everyone.


We have not created a new class "the moaning class". People have the right to question and as you said yourself in another thread "_I don't have to accept anything what other people are talking about, the facts are there."_


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

SlugBreath said:


> Your comment above states that "every" vaccine "will" require two doses. You are talking about other future vaccines here, not just the one recently approved. This is obvious in your comment. Why are you now trying to obfuscate with your subsequent comments.


I'm quite aware of what I wrote and its true the last two words in the sentence are the clue


----------



## Bronco Lane

Paul O Mahoney said:


> I'm quite aware of what I wrote and its true the last two words in the sentence are the clue


Yes. We were all there. So I am not sure why you needed to remind us. 



Paul O Mahoney said:


> But this isn't good enough for some, we have created a new class " the moaning class" where the best efforts of others is a constant target for ridiculous ill-informed attacks including personal attacks on people who have given it everything, everyday for everyone.



Here is an article I assume from one of your "moaning class".


----------



## joe sod

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Vaccine passports I certainly would not advocate and shouldn't be considered.


I don't understand your opposition to this , it is the means to open up things and get people to take the vaccine. In any case even if our government decides they are not going to issue them they still may be necessary for travel to other countries as those countries may require it? People will be really angry when even after getting vaccinated they are still not able to enter other countries because of lack of certification


----------



## Bronco Lane

Paul O Mahoney said:


> the last two words in the sentence are the clue


"Every day for Every one"

Except the vaccine roll out will be 5 days a week from 9 till 5.

Oh Dear! I must be one of the new "moaning class".


----------



## Bronco Lane

Do we know how many vaccines were administered in Ireland since "Annie" got hers?


----------



## johnwilliams

valery "working 9-5, averages around 1 person vaccinated per hour, per vaccinator. "
how is it taking a hour to do one person ?


----------



## johnwilliams

is it the tracking software thats causing issue ,not being trained up on it?
also how many vaccinators are available to administer it ?


----------



## tomdublin

johnwilliams said:


> valery "working 9-5, averages around 1 person vaccinated per hour, per vaccinator. "
> how is it taking a hour to do one person ?


Part of the problem is that the HSE's main priority is its own bureaucratic self-reproduction.  Like many other bureaucracies of its kind, its "business model" is essentially parasitical, seeking to 
extract from society as much as possible while delivering as little as it can get away with.  In the past, this was tempered by pressure from the media, opposition parties and public pressure groups.  Since the onset of the pandemic that pressure has eased notably.  Interviews with health officials on TV and radio are now much more deferential than before the pandemic.  Perhaps the media doesn't want to be seen as cynical spoilers of a collective national effort.  Millions spent on pandemic-related public service advertising might also play some part.  The media is in a difficult position, but they should now resume their traditional role of holding those in power to account.


----------



## Bronco Lane

johnwilliams said:


> is it the tracking software thats causing issue ,not being trained up on it?
> also how many vaccinators are available to administer it ?


No. I have heard that there was a problem with their Abacuses.  I think lead paint was found even though they paid top dollar for them.


----------



## joe sod

tomdublin said:


> Part of the problem is that the HSE's main priority is its own bureaucratic self-reproduction. Like many other bureaucracies of its kind, its "business model" is essentially parasitical, seeking to
> extract from society as much as possible while delivering as little as it can get away with.


alot of truth in that, aswell as that all the quangos that the government has set up over the last 2 decades are more grit in the gears.

Oxford vaccine being rolled out now in UK, first batch 500,000 delivered. This vaccine can be produced easily and in big numbers, hopefully it is authorized quickly in the EU, the bureacrats need to get out of the way there aswell once the scientists are ok with it.


----------



## joer

On a lighter note... If they were to put the vaccine into beer and open up the pubs everyone would get enough doses to be cured in weeks


----------



## mtk

Newstalk pat kenny with Luke O’Neill discussing Israeli success
I mentioned previously


mtk said:


> Israel aims to vaccinate 25% of population in a month; 250,000 had shots so far | The Times of Israel
> 
> Just  to put it  in perspective 25% is >2million
> Last i heard we would take 2 months to do nursing homes !


----------



## Merowig

Paul O Mahoney said:


> How do you plan for something you don't have or may never have. The vaccine,  well Pfizers and Biontech they didn't even know a few months ago.


The US and Israel bought large quantities of vaccines plus options to buy more from multiple producers not knowing which one will be working and when. The EU was sleeping though meanwhile.


----------



## Merowig

Not surprised to see many countries doing better than Ireland...


----------



## Merowig

Prosper said:


> Making simple comparisons with other countries can be deceptive. Israel is in the middle of an election campaign and so Netanyahu will make whatever promise he needs to make. At the height of the pandemic in late September, Israel was getting close to 7,000 new covid cases per day. Even now it's getting over 3,000 per day and climbing. So there is enormous pressure on Netanyahu to get the vaccinations done asap. He's the one who has claimed that they'll get 25% of the population vaccinated by the end of January and he'll throw all caution to the wind to make that happen. However, I've no doubt that Israel will vaccinate at a faster rate that us. Israel has a population of 9 million in a country that's less than one third the size of RoI and 93% are urban (RoI is 63% urban) so getting the vaccine distributed to more people in less time is much more likely.
> I'd prefer safety over speed.


Israel was preparing for that vaccination campaign way before the newest round of elections came around - no connection here
Also they bought doses of vaccines well in advance from multiple companies and were prepared to pay more for that privilege.

I also do not believe that Israel has thrown all caution to the wind. That statement is completely baseless. They use the same vaccine as Ireland.
Ireland is not cautious - just incompetent.

I have posted above a chart which compares vaccinations campaigns in different countries - Romania has an Urbanization percentage of 54% , a much wider territory to cover and still doing better than Ireland - similar for many other countries...

Ireland received around 10.000 doses  - but as per 31.12.2020 only 1800 doses were administered. 









						Nearly 10,000 vaccines arrive in Ireland with four days to go to first vaccination
					

The Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine against Covid-19 has arrived in Ireland.




					www.thejournal.ie


----------



## tomdublin

mtk said:


> Newstalk pat kenny with Luke O’Neill discussing Israeli success
> I mentioned previously


Luke O'N also made the very valid point that Israel has a superb education system and a scientifically literate, clued-in and attentive population holding its officials to account.   Their health officials wouldn't get away with lame excuses such as the HSE's favourite nonsensical claim that "rushing" the vaccine would be unsafe.


----------



## Purple

tomdublin said:


> Luke O'N also made the very valid point that Israel has a superb education system and a scientifically literate, clued-in and attentive population holding its officials to account.   Their health officials wouldn't get away with lame excuses such as the HSE's favourite nonsensical claim that "rushing" the vaccine would be unsafe.


Israel also had a nationally identity card, a massive military infrastructure and much better IT integration in every aspect of its Public administration. 
People here don't want a national identity card or anything like that, which is fair enough, but it would make national systems like this much easier to administer. The problem isn't jabbing people. The problem is making sure everyone has been jabbed.


----------



## Cricketer

Purple said:


> People here don't want a national identity card or anything like that



It's interesting isn't it, because the likes of Instagram and Tesco hold vast amounts of these objectors' data. And they provide it willingly!


----------



## Purple

Cricketer said:


> It's interesting isn't it, because the likes of Instagram and Tesco hold vast amounts of these objectors' data. And they provide it willingly!


Yep. If you aren't paying for something (social media) then you are the product, not the customer.


----------



## tomdublin

Purple said:


> The problem is making sure everyone has been jabbed.


No, not at this early stage where virtually nobody has been vaccinated yet.  At this point the challenge is getting vaccines into willing and readily available arms as fast as possible, not finding arms.  Vaccinating hard-to-reach/reluctant/undocumented parts of the population will become a challenge during later stages but that's a long way off.  For now they just need to get the process started.


----------



## Purple

tomdublin said:


> No, not at this early stage where virtually nobody has been vaccinated yet.  At this point the challenge is getting vaccines into willing and readily available arms as fast as possible, not finding arms.  Vaccinating hard-to-reach/reluctant/undocumented parts of the population will become a challenge during later stages but that's a long way off.  For now they just need to get the process started.


No, if they don't have a system in place at the start it will quickly turn into a complete mess.


----------



## Merowig

Purple said:


> No, if they don't have a system in place at the start it will quickly turn into a complete mess.


And obviously not enough preparations were made to kick it off...


----------



## Leper

Purple said:


> No, if they don't have a system in place at the start it will quickly turn into a complete mess.


You're jumping the gun again Purple. The HSE must and will have a system in place to administer the Covid vaccines to all. Can anybody supply a source confirming that there is no system in place? Or are you just making it up?


----------



## Purple

Leper said:


> You're jumping the gun again Purple. The HSE must and will have a system in place to administer the Covid vaccines to all. Can anybody supply a source confirming that there is no system in place? Or are you just making it up?


From the 

_Our response to this challenge is underpinned by a range of proven capabilities already in place in the HSE, the DoH, and across the wider public sector, in implementing safe vaccination programmes for the public. 
These include: > Highly experienced teams in the HSE’s National Immunisation Office (NIO) and Health Protection Surveillance Centre (HPSC) as well as in at the Health Products Regulatory Authority (HPRA) 
> A reliable and trusted National Cold Chain solution, which has distributed all vaccines on behalf of the HSE as part of the National Immunisation Programme over the last fifteen years 
> Qualified and trained healthcare workers who will administer the vaccine, including hospital doctors, community medical officers, nurses, GPs and pharmacists 
> Experience in mobilising significant operations and processes for previous mass immunisation campaigns, and for swabbing, testing and tracing as part of our COVID-19 response. 

*These tried and trusted delivery mechanisms will be augmented by enhanced structures and processes to ensure the safe and efficient administration of vaccinations at a large scale. These include: *
> New settings such as Mass Vaccination Centres, developed following learnings from the early stages of the management of the pandemic 
*> ICT systems to enable the planning and scheduling of vaccinations, and also to support the monitoring and evaluation of the success and effectiveness of the vaccination programme*_

If the IT infrastructure isn't in place at the start then it will turn into a cluster... a mess.
Considering that the HSE has no such infrastructure in place at the moment and many hospitals can't talk to each other electronically (they have different patient filing and data systems) why do you think that this is already in place? The Strategy was published on the 11th of December. Do you think they resolved these issues since then?


----------



## odyssey06

I hope we didnt wait for vaccine to be submitted for final approval before starting on the IT programme to support its rollout.


----------



## Eureka101

RTÉ are reporting that up to 11000 in NI people will receive a vaccination this week but there is no mention of what ROI will achieve this week..
I feel there should now be a huge focus here updating us on vaccinations completed and vaccinations intended on a weekly basis instead of simply lazily headlining the new cases day after day after day.. we know the virus is out of control but what we really need and require to get us through these dark months is to be informed on what we are doing about it.


----------



## Bronco Lane

We constantly hear "what we are going to do".  Everything is next week.

Some nursing homes are only starting their vaccinations on Thursday the 7th January. I think we got the vaccines on the 26th December.


----------



## Merowig

Vaccines in all care homes by end of January - Donnelly
					

Minister for Health Stephen Donnelly said it is planned that all those working and living in Ireland's 580 nursing homes - around 70,000 people - will receive their first Covid-19 vaccine dose by the end of this month.




					www.rte.ie
				





> Minister for Health Stephen Donnelly said it is planned that all those working and living in Ireland's 580 nursing homes - around 70,000 people - will receive their first Covid-19 vaccine dose by the end of this month.



Meanwhile Israel vaccinated yesterday alone 121,114 people.


----------



## Leper

Merowig said:


> Vaccines in all care homes by end of January - Donnelly
> 
> 
> Minister for Health Stephen Donnelly said it is planned that all those working and living in Ireland's 580 nursing homes - around 70,000 people - will receive their first Covid-19 vaccine dose by the end of this month.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.rte.ie
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meanwhile Israel vaccinated yesterday alone 121,114 people.


I note Merowig admitted going abroad for 3 weeks holiday in August although government guidelines suggested non travel. He also refused to participate in the pandemic "panic" he said was created in the press here.  Now he is informing us of what is happening in Israel. He even posted a chart on the amount of people other countries were vaccinating too. He supported the reduction to Level 3 from Level 5 on 1st December when infections at 200 per day were considered too high (Yesterday 6000+infections were reported). Now he is trying to dictate what the HSE should or should not do. We live in an age of litigation and I believe the HSE is going about the vaccinating in a caring and correct way. This is something they must do and not sacrifice speed for acccuracy.

Merowig is entitled to his opinions and I hope he keeps contributing here. But, if he were an officer in the trenches and me an ordinary soldier, I'd be in fear of my life as he'd send me over the top while he remains swigging grog back at the officers mess dictating strategy in which he is not participating. A relatively small amount of the Pfizer vaccine was made available to us on 26th December. There is an ongoing plan in place for widescale distribution of the available vaccines. It's a serious anti-pandemic vaccine that being rolled out not a packet of Smarties or Chocolate Buttons. 

We are not one full week into 2021 yet. I don't care how many are vaccinated in Haifa. I don't care how fast or slow they are doing it. I am confident that the HSE will get this vaccination right and I bet targets are achieved ahead of time. Ireland has a long way to go but we'll get there even if we must take the Old Bog Road.


----------



## john luc

My Mother is in a care home and they will only be getting the Vaccine on the 26th. Very slow roll out.


----------



## Merowig

Some people like to defend incompetence for whatever reasons.

The repeated hint that other countries possibly are not successfully distributing the vaccine in a correct way is baseless.










						Red tape blamed for Covid-19 vaccine rollout delays
					

HSE says delays linked to the consent system and not to vaccine supplies




					www.irishexaminer.com
				





> Red tape blamed for Covid-19 vaccine rollout delays
> (...)
> Head of Nursing Home Ireland Tadhg Daly said many nursing homes are using Excel spreadsheets to track and report consent. He previously told the Irish Examiner that the computer systems are “a bit behind”.
> 
> This is despite the HSE’s Paul Reid saying last week that the first module of the new IT system is already running and ready for use.
> (...)



Ireland is "a bit behind"...


----------



## Purple

Merowig said:


> Some people like to defend incompetence for whatever reasons.
> 
> The repeated hint that other countries possibly are not successfully distributing the vaccine in a correct way is baseless.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Red tape blamed for Covid-19 vaccine rollout delays
> 
> 
> HSE says delays linked to the consent system and not to vaccine supplies
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.irishexaminer.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ireland is "a bit behind"...


I don't think anyone is defending the HSE's organisational incompetence (and the HSE is everyone who works in it, not some abstract concept). It costs billions of Euro a year and kills hundreds, maybe thousands, of people. The point is that they have to get their house in order before they start sticking needles in people.


----------



## tomdublin

Purple said:


> The point is that they have to get their house in order before they start sticking needles in people.


That would mean that nobody will get vaccinated for decades!


----------



## Rosjohn

EMA approve Moderna vaccine for over 18s in EU.


----------



## joe sod

Leper said:


> Merowig is entitled to his opinions and I hope he keeps contributing here. But, if he were an officer in the trenches and me an ordinary soldier, I'd be in fear of my life as he'd send me over the top while he remains swigging grog back at the officers mess dictating strategy in which he is not participating.


he is not an officer obviously , your analogy does not work at all. It seems you are a little bit too prickly about valid criticisms of how the vaccine rollout is happening. Methinks you are probably a little too close yourself to the action and the decision making process associated with the HSE or government, maybe you are  one of the officers.


----------



## Merowig

On a side note I am active in the reserve forces and might do some travel abroad end of March for a short training should the training or flights not be cancelled. 

Back to topic








						Around 50,000 receive first dose of Covid-19 vaccine in Northern Ireland
					

News from the Irish Examiner's team of reporters




					www.irishexaminer.com
				




Northern Ireland managed to administer the vaccine to 50,000 people as per today  - Ireland 4,000 as per 4th of January (with at least 40,000 doses arrived to Ireland by now) - Israel 1.48 million also as per yesterday.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Merowig said:


> On a side note I am active in the reserve forces and might do some travel abroad end of March for a short training should the training or flights not be cancelled.
> 
> Back to topic
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Around 50,000 receive first dose of Covid-19 vaccine in Northern Ireland
> 
> 
> News from the Irish Examiner's team of reporters
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.irishexaminer.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Northern Ireland managed to administer the vaccine to 50,000 people as per today  - Ireland 4,000 as per 4th of January (with at least 40,000 doses arrived to Ireland by now) - Israel 1.48 million also as per yesterday.
> 
> View attachment 5215


Well its easy to vaccinate people when you actually have the vaccine and you have it a full 3 weeks before anybody else.
Northern Ireland had 50,000 vaccine (Pfizer)
on the 14th of December,  with another 25000 due Christmas week. We had zero. 

We received 10,000 on the 26th of December and were due to receive 35,000 this week post the 4th of January,  again difficult to use something that you don't have.

Finally we are retaining 50% of doses of received vaccines, and Northern Ireland now has 2 vaccines whereas we have 1.


----------



## Bronco Lane

Where are the 9 fridges that store these Pfizer vaccines?

How do they move these vaccines to nursing homes from these fridges?

Is this the delay problem?


----------



## Merowig

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Well its easy to vaccinate people when you actually have the vaccine and you have it a full 3 weeks before anybody else.
> Northern Ireland had 50,000 vaccine (Pfizer)
> on the 14th of December,  with another 25000 due Christmas week. We had zero.
> 
> We received 10,000 on the 26th of December and were due to receive 35,000 this week post the 4th of January,  again difficult to use something that you don't have.
> 
> Finally we are retaining 50% of doses of received vaccines, and Northern Ireland now has 2 vaccines whereas we have 1.


If we compare with EU countries only - the roll out here in Ireland is still appalling


----------



## Bronco Lane

Leo Varadkar on the Pat Kenny show at the moment.......still talking about what "*they are going to be doing*" with the vaccines.


----------



## Merowig

Daniel McConnell: Every vaccine delay means an extra week of business and school closures
					

While there may be a reluctant acceptance to stomach the latest and hardest lockdown, the obvious question which needs to be asked is – where is the vaccine and why are we so slow in rolling it out?




					www.irishexaminer.com


----------



## Tintagel

My personal opinion of Paul Reid is that he looks as if he is constantly trying to keep ahead of the posse. He has a very difficult job but he must have a team of managers who really have to be held accountable for this sham roll out of the vaccines.

The vaccines have been in the country 12 days now. How many have been administered?


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

__





						European complaints over vaccine rollout
					

The public has been critical of the coronavirus vaccine rollout across Europe. Here's what people in several EU countries have to say about the COVID-19 vaccination campaign.




					amp.dw.com
				




There are a few figures contained in the above , Germany 300,000 , Italy 20,000 France ?


----------



## Merowig

Paul O Mahoney said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> European complaints over vaccine rollout
> 
> 
> The public has been critical of the coronavirus vaccine rollout across Europe. Here's what people in several EU countries have to say about the COVID-19 vaccination campaign.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> amp.dw.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are a few figures contained in the above , Germany 300,000 , Italy 20,000 France ?


367,331  Germany, either 259,481   or 307,182 Italy - the number of 20000 seems to be wrong in the article

 5,000  France

Some say France is delaying as they want to use a vaccine from Sanofi...


----------



## Merowig

Tintagel said:


> My personal opinion of Paul Reid is that he looks as if he is constantly trying to keep ahead of the posse. He has a very difficult job but he must have a team of managers who really have to be held accountable for this sham roll out of the vaccines.
> 
> The vaccines have been in the country 12 days now. How many have been administered?


4000 as per 4th of January





and on a per capita base


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Merowig said:


> 367,331  Germany, either 259,481   or 307,182 Italy - the number of 20000 seems to be wrong in the article
> 
> 5,000  France
> 
> Some say France is delaying as they want to use a vaccine from Sanofi...


Still tiny figures as a percentage of population. 
Why would France wait for Sanofi they aren't even out of phase 2 trials with a larger phase 2 starting in February,  all going well you'd be looking at mid- late 2021 before data would be gathered.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Sanofi suffers major setback in development of a Covid-19 vaccine
					

The problem will push the timeline for deployment of Sanofi Pasteur’s Covid-19 vaccine — if it is approved — from the first half of 2021 into the second half of the year.




					www.statnews.com


----------



## EmmDee

Merowig said:


> Some say France is delaying as they want to use a vaccine from Sanofi...



Doubt it's that. There is a high level of vacine sceptisim in France (only 40% say they will take the vaccine). I think I read that the French were slow rolling it out initially to ensure there were no issues and negative publicity. I believe they intend to ramp up.

Might go to France to get the jab if they don't want it - more availability


----------



## Tintagel

A nurse on the radio yesterday from an ICU ward and she has no idea when she will be getting her vaccine. She hasn't been told yet!


----------



## Merowig

Macron accused of holding out for French Covid vaccine
					

President Macron’s government has been accused of delaying its Covid-19 inoculation campaign to give a French company time to prepare its vaccine.Ministers hav




					www.thetimes.co.uk
				






> CORONAVIRUS
> *Macron accused of holding out for French Covid vaccine*
> 
> President Macron’s government has been accused of delaying its Covid-19 inoculation campaign to give a French company time to prepare its vaccine.
> 
> Ministers have denied seeking to favour the dose being developed by the French company Sanofi in partnership with Glaxosmithkline (GSK), of Britain. The claims, however, are adding to a row over the slow rate of vaccination.
> 
> (...)


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Merowig said:


> Macron accused of holding out for French Covid vaccine
> 
> 
> President Macron’s government has been accused of delaying its Covid-19 inoculation campaign to give a French company time to prepare its vaccine.Ministers hav
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thetimes.co.uk


The headline says that but its denied by ministers in the first paragraph.


----------



## Cloudd

Merowig said:


> Some people like to defend incompetence for whatever reasons.
> 
> *The repeated hint that other countries possibly are not successfully distributing the vaccine in a correct way is baseless.*
> 
> 
> Ireland is "a bit behind"...




My boss is French, and has been in Montpellier for the last month. Yesterday she told our team that while Germany had reportedly rolled out tens or hundreds of thousands of vaccines, France had several hundred. Disastrously behind and shocking logistical and operational neglegence.

So yes, Ireland is not where it needs to be, but many other superpowers are having a tough time of it as well.


----------



## tomdublin

EmmDee said:


> Doubt it's that. There is a high level of vacine sceptisim in France (only 40% say they will take the vaccine). I think I read that the French were slow rolling it out initially to ensure there were no issues and negative publicity. I believe they intend to ramp up.
> 
> Might go to France to get the jab if they don't want it - more availability


The BBC had an interesting report on this saying that in France the delay is largely due to elaborate protocols for obtaining informed consent among the elderly/mentally impaired who are first in the vaccination queue.  Like in Ireland, they take these issues seriously as both countries have had various scandals in the past with people receiving treatment without their informed consent and in response to this they enacted stringent regulations.  That's a very good thing and respectful of people's human dignity.  But what I don't understand is why they don't just start vaccinating people whose consent is less problematic to obtain while working with those for whom it takes a bit longer and then vaccinate them if and when their consent is forthcoming.  There's no logical need for the consent issue to hold up everything else.


----------



## Merowig

Paul O Mahoney said:


> The headline says that but its denied by ministers in the first paragraph.


I know - German politicians and French Opposition say similiar as the headline though

e.g. https://twitter.com/pthibaut/status/1346372909577744384?s=20
or









						Vaccination anti-Covid : Jadot (EELV) fustige le «fiasco» français
					

L'eurodéputé EELV Yannick Jadot a dénoncé lundi 4 janvier le «fiasco» de la stratégie vaccinale française, dont Emmanuel Macron est selon lui...




					www.lefigaro.fr
				





> (...)
> L'eurodéputé EELV Yannick Jadot a dénoncé lundi 4 janvier le «_fiasco_» de la stratégie vaccinale française, dont Emmanuel Macron est selon lui responsable, et de l'industrie hexagonale avec un vaccin de Sanofi qui ne devrait pas être disponible avant fin 2021.
> Il a fustigé sur Radio Classique et _Le Figaro _un gouvernement qui a lancé «_à reculons_» la campagne de vaccination avec le vaccin de Pfizer/BioNTech, et évoqué «_le bruit qui court à Bruxelles que la France a joué Sanofi au maximum, a contraint d'ailleurs l'Europe probablement - c'est ce que dit la presse allemande - à privilégier Sanofi contre les autres vaccins, d'où le fait qu'on ait cette forme de réticence vis-à-vis de Pfizer_». Le député européen a, à cet égard, dénoncé un «_fiasco industriel français_», puisque le vaccin français ne devrait être prêt qu'à la fin 2021. Il juge que cette situation met la France «_dans une situation dramatique_» et est le résultat d'un «_mélange d'amateurisme, d'incompétence, de prétention, d'arrogance_».
> (...)


----------



## Ceist Beag

Merowig said:


> 4000 as per 4th of January


15314 as of today according to Paul Reid this afternoon



			https://twitter.com/rtenews/status/1347187613707464705?s=20


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Ceist Beag said:


> 15314 as of today according to Paul Reid this afternoon
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/rtenews/status/1347187613707464705?s=20


9000 over 3 days seems reasonable at this stage


----------



## Sunny

Paul O Mahoney said:


> 9000 over 3 days seems reasonable at this stage



Not really since their stated aim was 35-40,000 a week. They are only on track for half that. What is being attempted is a huge logistical operation. There are going to be delays and I can only imagine how much stress the people involved in this are feeling. The issue is that you have HSE Management and Politicians making promises that other people who are relying on other people who are relying on other people have to deliver. The supply and delivery chains are huge. They need to completely honest here and tell us if and where the delays are. I think people will accept supply constraints as being out of control but I don't think people will accept logistical issues around delivery that no-one will admit to because they are somehow afraid of negative publicity or being protective of their jobs. I don't want to be hearing about IT system issues causing a delay and still be talking about it in 3 months.... We need to throw the full resources of public and private sector at this. We can't control the physical delivery of vaccines but we can control a lot other things.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Sunny said:


> Not really since their stated aim was 35-40,000 a week. They are only on track for half that. What is being attempted is a huge logistical operation. There are going to be delays and I can only imagine how much stress the people involved in this are feeling. The issue is that you have HSE Management and Politicians making promises that other people who are relying on other people who are relying on other people have to deliver. The supply and delivery chains are huge. They need to completely honest here and tell us if and where the delays are. I think people will accept supply constraints as being out of control but I don't think people will accept logistical issues around delivery that no-one will admit to because they are somehow afraid of negative publicity or being protective of their jobs. I don't want to be hearing about IT system issues causing a delay and still be talking about it in 3 months.... We need to throw the full resources of public and private sector at this. We can't control the physical delivery of vaccines but we can control a lot other things.



35000 this week which is the first week of this target,  still need to get 40000 in though. If the target of 270000 elderly,  frontline medical and others were vaccinated by end of February would be a great result. Its a big ask though. 

Can you cite any logistical issues to date? I haven't seen any reports.


----------



## Leo

Tintagel said:


> A nurse on the radio yesterday from an ICU ward and she has no idea when she will be getting her vaccine. She hasn't been told yet!



Experiences may differ but in the hospital where my wife works all staff were provided access to a system where they could select their preferred time slot including weekends, but low take-up of the weekend slots means they're cutting back on those now.


----------



## Merowig

Vaccine target would need a miracle as current jab rate would take us YEARS to complete - Extra.ie
					

A Promised August target for anybody who wants to be vaccinated 'would be miraculous', a leading health expert said last night.



					extra.ie
				



*"Vaccine target would need a miracle as current jab rate would take us YEARS to complete"*


Israel meanwhile might be finished with the Vaccination campaign by end of March:








						Israel, already leading the world in rolling out the COVID-19 vaccines, aims to immunize entire country by the end of March
					

"We will be the first country in the world to emerge from the coronavirus," Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said.




					www.businessinsider.com


----------



## Purple

Merowig said:


> Vaccine target would need a miracle as current jab rate would take us YEARS to complete - Extra.ie
> 
> 
> A Promised August target for anybody who wants to be vaccinated 'would be miraculous', a leading health expert said last night.
> 
> 
> 
> extra.ie
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *"Vaccine target would need a miracle as current jab rate would take us YEARS to complete"*
> 
> 
> Israel meanwhile might be finished with the Vaccination campaign by end of March:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Israel, already leading the world in rolling out the COVID-19 vaccines, aims to immunize entire country by the end of March
> 
> 
> "We will be the first country in the world to emerge from the coronavirus," Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.businessinsider.com


Considering that the vaccine may only last a year or two we might never get out of lockdown. We're all doomed!!!


----------



## odyssey06

Purple said:


> Considering that the vaccine may only last a year or two we might never get out of lockdown. We're all doomed!!!



What we really need is a single dose vaccine that doesn't need the special handling of the Pfizer one, and can be rolled out like flu vaccine easily through the GP and pharmacy network to the vast majority of the population. There are candidates in development along those lines.


----------



## Ceist Beag

odyssey06 said:


> What we really need is a single dose vaccine that doesn't need the special handling of the Pfizer one, and can be rolled out like flu vaccine easily through the GP and pharmacy network to the vast majority of the population. There are candidates in development along those lines.


Paul Reid was stating at the weekend that the HSE are planning on the basis of delivering 1 million doses per month of the Astra Zeneca vaccine (which falls into the category of one of those that can be much more easily transported) if it is approved. This might sound optimistic on the basis of evidence to date but if this can be delivered at that rate then the picture could look very different in a month or two's time.


----------



## odyssey06

Ceist Beag said:


> Paul Reid was stating at the weekend that the HSE are planning on the basis of delivering 1 million doses per month of the Astra Zeneca vaccine (which falls into the category of one of those that can be much more easily transported) if it is approved. This might sound optimistic on the basis of evidence to date but if this can be delivered at that rate then the picture could look very different in a month or two's time.



That's good news for year 1.
For next year and the years after, if we have to get into a cycle of annual vaccinations like the flu vaccine, then to be practicable we need a cheap and easy to distribute vaccine.


----------



## Purple

odyssey06 said:


> That's good news for year 1.
> For next year and the years after, if we have to get into a cycle of annual vaccinations like the flu vaccine, then to be practicable we need a cheap and easy to distribute vaccine.


The Oxford vaccine is cheap and easy to distribute.


----------



## odyssey06

Purple said:


> The Oxford vaccine is cheap and easy to distribute.



Johnson & Johnson have a 2-dose and 1-dose trial, and can be stored in the fridge. Interim report due on 1-dose trial by month end:


			J&J Plans to Submit South African Vaccine Trial Data


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

odyssey06 said:


> Johnson & Johnson have a 2-dose and 1-dose trial, and can be stored in the fridge. Interim report due on 1-dose trial by month end:
> 
> 
> J&J Plans to Submit South African Vaccine Trial Data


Just reading an article on Barrons, this is usually behind a pay wall but Ugur Sahin CEO of Biontech said yesterday that they are working on the temperature issue and should have "an improved termostable formulation later this year" 

If that doesn't happen JNJ and Novavax are in late stage trials. 

He believes that Covid-19 will be around for a considerable time and "vaccines will remain relevant for the coming decades ".

Other sources I have read suggests some concerns about the South African variant and its mutation particularly in the spike proteins and the effects on the efficiency of all the vaccines. 

However Sahin is confident that they could re-engineer the present vaccine within 6 weeks. 

He also stated that both Pfizer and Biontech were aiming to have 2bn doses this year, as Biontech now have a manufacturing facility.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?
		


From Bloomberg interesting read


----------



## Merowig

Yes some countries manage to have a a much more efficient health system...










						Plea for faster vaccine rollout as six die with Covid-19 at Laois nursing home
					

Five residents at Droimnín Nursing Home in Stradbally died in less than a week




					www.irishtimes.com


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Merowig said:


> Yes some countries manage to have a a much more efficient health system...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Plea for faster vaccine rollout as six die with Covid-19 at Laois nursing home
> 
> 
> Five residents at Droimnín Nursing Home in Stradbally died in less than a week
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.irishtimes.com


I would think that Isreal is unique in that all the data it holds on its population. 

I cannot think of any other countries that would have this data due to the nature of it.


----------



## Merowig

Paul O Mahoney said:


> I would think that Isreal is unique in that all the data it holds on its population.
> 
> I cannot think of any other countries that would have this data due to the nature of it.


Estonia, Canada, Denmark, Spain on regional levels have all digital health systems - Germany is as well rolling digital healthcare out....

e.g.:
Estonia:








						An Overview of e-Health Services in Estonia
					

e-Health services are a hallmark of the efficiency, reliability, and traceability of the e-solutions network. See how intuitive solutions like the Patient Po...




					www.youtube.com
				



Canada: 
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41746-020-00326-y


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Merowig said:


> Estonia, Canada, Denmark, Spain on regional levels have all digital health systems - Germany is as well rolling digital healthcare out....
> 
> e.g.:
> Estonia:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> An Overview of e-Health Services in Estonia
> 
> 
> e-Health services are a hallmark of the efficiency, reliability, and traceability of the e-solutions network. See how intuitive solutions like the Patient Po...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.youtube.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Canada:
> https://www.nature.com/articles/s41746-020-00326-y


Simply having digital systems isn't the same as what Israel does, the data they have is available to every health professional.

How would the European countries overcome GDPR to be able to replicate the Israeli system?


----------



## Merowig

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Simply having digital systems isn't the same as what Israel does, the data they have is available to every health professional.
> 
> How would the European countries overcome GDPR to be able to replicate the Israeli system?


Did you check the Youtube video at all? Estonian health professionals have access to the data and users can revoke / limit that right.
Similiar in other EU countries

I understand that GDPR is used as a convenient way to have an excuse for inefficiency but for me it is not a valid one...

Denmark:


----------



## Merowig

Back to topic








						Covid-19: IT problems cause delays for vaccinations of GPs
					

An online portal for GPs to book a vaccine slot for themselves and people on their team had been expected to go live on Friday.




					www.irishexaminer.com


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Merowig said:


> Did you check the Youtube video at all? Estonian health professionals have access to the data and users can revoke / limit that right.
> Similiar in other EU countries
> 
> I understand that GDPR is used as a convenient way to have an excuse for inefficiency but for me it is not a valid one...


Yes I did but again its not what Israel does, the video,  only shows an authorised person can access the information ie the mother, and of course its a good system but how it compares to how Israel has used all its data is beyond my capabilities.

GDPR is an excuse for inefficiency?


----------



## Merowig

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Yes I did but again its not what Israel does, the video,  only shows an authorised person can access the information ie the mother, and of course its a good system but how it compares to how Israel has used all its data is beyond my capabilities.


Also health professionals can access the data in the Estonian and Danish examples. So what is the difference according to you with Israel then? You remain here vague.

Ireland uses partially Excel and other countries like Israel, Estonia, Canada, Denmark etc have proper databases with access to the data to all proper health professionals/authorized persons....

Estonias and Denmarks per capita administered Vaccine doses are as well better than Irelands


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Merowig said:


> Also health professionals can access the data in the Estonian and Danish examples. So what is the difference according to you with Israel then? You remain here vague.
> 
> Ireland uses partially Excel and other countries like Israel, Estonia, Canada, Denmark etc have proper databases with access to the data to all proper health professionals/authorized persons....
> 
> Estonias and Denmarks per capita administered Vaccine doses are as well better than Irelands


Read the article I posted.


----------



## Purple

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Yes I did but again its not what Israel does, the video,  only shows an authorised person can access the information ie the mother, and of course its a good system but how it compares to how Israel has used all its data is beyond my capabilities.
> 
> GDPR is an excuse for inefficiency?


People at every level in the HSE, doctors, nurses, administrators and managers, have stymied attempt at reform over the years. PPARS is a good case in point. This, along with all of the other issues that structural inefficiency causes, is mainly their fault. The HSE is not some abstract concept, it is the 120,000 or so people who work in it.


----------



## Merowig

Which I did - it does not differ


Paul O Mahoney said:


> Read the article I posted.


Which I did
from the article:

"They know who has returned for a booster shot and who has opted out. Israel knows the ages, medical conditions and other demographic information of a heterogeneous population. And all this data is held by the Ministry of Health. "

That is not different to Estonia, Denmark or other Countries...


----------



## Purple

Merowig said:


> Also health professionals can access the data in the Estonian and Danish examples. So what is the difference according to you with Israel then? You remain here vague.
> 
> Ireland uses partially Excel and other countries like Israel, Estonia, Canada, Denmark etc have proper databases with access to the data to all proper health professionals/authorized persons....
> 
> Estonias and Denmarks per capita administered Vaccine doses are as well better than Irelands


Most of the hospitals in Ireland are privately owned but publicly funded. The people who work in them have refused to standardise their IT infrastructure. I had a brain scan a few years ago and the results were put on a CD and sent by taxi from one hospital to another.


----------



## Purple

Merowig said:


> Which I did - it does not differ
> 
> Which I did
> from the article:
> 
> "They know who has returned for a booster shot and who has opted out. Israel knows the ages, medical conditions and other demographic information of a heterogeneous population. And all this data is held by the Ministry of Health. "
> 
> That is not different to Estonia, Denmark or other Countries...


They also have a national identity card. We don't. We are decades behind.


----------



## Merowig

Purple said:


> Most of the hospitals in Ireland are privately owned but publicly funded. The people who work in them have refused to standardise their IT infrastructure. I have a brain scan a few years ago and the results were put on a CD and sent by taxi from one hospital to another.



Legislation could "easily" fix that if there would be a will.


----------



## Merowig

Purple said:


> They also have a national identity card. We don't. We are decades behind.


PPS numbers could do the trick if needed.

But I agree with the decades behind - I am travelling occasionally for business to London and a colleague there joked the last time: "What is the time difference between Dublin and London? - 20 years."


----------



## Purple

Merowig said:


> Legislation could £easily" fix that if there would be a will.


No it wouldn't. There would be strikes and pay increases and nothing would actually change. There's a reason we are amongst the highest per capita spenders on healthcare in the world but still have rubbish health services.


----------



## Purple

Merowig said:


> PPS numbers could do the trick if needed.
> 
> But I agree with the decades behind - I am travelling occasionally for business to London and a colleague there joked the last time: "What is the time difference between Dublin and London? - 20 years.


I spoke to a nurse a while ago who had worked in the NHS for 20 years before returning to Ireland. She said that her hospital was now talking about putting reporting systems and IT infrastructure in place which was already in place in England when she started working there. She said that the levels of accountability for nurses and doctors here were just about nonexistent.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Purple said:


> Most of the hospitals in Ireland are privately owned but publicly funded. The people who work in them have refused to standardise their IT infrastructure. I have a brain scan a few years ago and the results were put on a CD and sent by taxi from one hospital to another.


I'm not arguing that our system is anywhere near good, like you when I was sick I had 4 hospital numbers as I had treatment in four hospitals.

BTW I was only trying to give some insight into why Israel has now rolled out vaccines to 20% of its population.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Merowig said:


> PPS numbers could do the trick if needed.


That idea was whacked on the head with the the Public Service Card being deemed a step to far


----------



## Merowig

Purple said:


> No it wouldn't. There would be strikes and pay increases and nothing would actually change. There's a reason we are amongst the highest per capita spenders on healthcare in the world but still have rubbish health services.



Again a matter political will or the lack of it. I would have imagined that the crisis here would be used to reform the health system - as the roll out of the vaccine and the higher numbers in hospitals show all the inefficiencies and problems in the system (although they were apparent before already). 
"Never let a good crisis go to waste" - but leadership is missing in action.

In other countries people like Holohan would have been forced to leave after the CervicalCheck Cancer scandal. But he is still around... 

Actually in regards to the Covid-19 Vaccine roll out I wonder how much vaccine is wasted at the end of the day in regards to doses not used up and then spoiling.
I am considering to make a FOI request on that if the number is not around in the public yet.


----------



## Purple

Paul O Mahoney said:


> I'm not arguing that our system is anywhere near good, like you when I was sick I had 4 hospital numbers as I had treatment in four hospitals.
> 
> BTW I was only trying to give some insight into why Israel has now rolled out vaccines to 20% of its population.


Absolutely. I made the point earlier in this thread that Israel has a massive military infrastructure which can be used for this task and a national identity card to track people. It is ridiculous to compare us to them.


----------



## Purple

Merowig said:


> Again a matter political will or the lack of it. I would have imagined that the crisis here would be used to reform the health system - as the roll out of the vaccine and the higher numbers in hospitals show all the inefficiencies and problems in the system (although they were apparent before already).
> "Never let a good crisis go to waste" - but leadership is missing in action.


The front line heroes would be on the Public Sector Broadcaster moaning about how awful it all is etc and the populists in the opposition and in the Government parties would all jump on the bandwagon. At the end of the day the Public sector Unions are stronger than the government.


----------



## Merowig

Purple said:


> Absolutely. I made the point earlier in this thread that Israel has a massive military infrastructure which can be used for this task and a national identity card to track people. It is ridiculous to compare us to them.






> Distribution has been a model of efficiency. Vaccinations happen seven days a week in most places and even late at night. While it is a civilian operation, the army is vaccinating its own soldiers and helping with tracking and tracing infection and some logistics.





			Bloomberg - Are you a robot?
		


The vaccine roll out is a civilian operation in Israel - Germany is using as well soldiers for track and tracing and I do not believe that a national ID card makes a huge difference if any.

The HSE is drafting in army personal as well for helping








						HSE drafting in army personnel to administer vaccine amid capacity concerns
					

News of the discussions comes as it has emerged the European Medicines Agency expects drug maker AstraZeneca to apply for approval of its Covid-19 vaccine next week with approval hopefully granted by the end of the month.




					www.irishexaminer.com


----------



## EmmDee

I get that the delay is frustrating - but per head of population, Ireland is doing better than many European countries we think of being more efficient including Germany, Finland, Netherlands, Norway. The ones ahead of us are UK, Denmark, Italy, Slovenia, Spain and Estonia (per ourworldindata.org)


----------



## Merowig

EmmDee said:


> I get that the delay is frustrating - but per head of population, Ireland is doing better than many European countries we think of being more efficient including Germany, Finland, Netherlands, Norway. The ones ahead of us are UK, Denmark, Italy, Slovenia, Spain and Estonia (per ourworldindata.org)



No - Germany is doing better (or numbers were updated after you checked last) - still Ireland catched up a good bit for now


----------



## odyssey06

Paywalled article in Irish Times... HSE administrators getting vaccine before GPs.

- Anger that GP's will now have to wait up to 8 weeks to get vaccinated.
- Issues with online portal. Registrations don't work. The same online portal will eventually be used to register vaccinations among members of the public.
- Promises that bookings last Monday would occur did not materialise. 









						Administrators getting Covid vaccine before GPs, says doctor
					

Angry GPs react to news they may have to wait up to eight weeks to be vaccinated




					www.irishtimes.com


----------



## Merowig

Online Vaccine Queue calculator can tell Irish people when to expect first dose
					

At this stage - with the roll-out just starting - it's a rough estimate




					www.corkbeo.ie
				













						Vaccine Queue Calculator for Ireland
					

The vaccine queue calculator for Ireland estimates where you are in the queue to get your COVID vaccine based on your age, health, and job.




					www.omnicalculator.com
				




current time to vaccinate everyone: 4.5 years at the current rate


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Merowig said:


> Online Vaccine Queue calculator can tell Irish people when to expect first dose
> 
> 
> At this stage - with the roll-out just starting - it's a rough estimate
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.corkbeo.ie
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vaccine Queue Calculator for Ireland
> 
> 
> The vaccine queue calculator for Ireland estimates where you are in the queue to get your COVID vaccine based on your age, health, and job.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.omnicalculator.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> current time to vaccinate everyone: 4.5 years at the current rate
> 
> View attachment 5238


So this isn't linked to any HSE data and it can't definitively say when you might be vaccinated. 
No doubt it doesn't take any other variables into account either like increase in vaccines delivered allowing more people to be vaccinated. 

I think I'll stick with my crystal ball.


----------



## RedOnion

Merowig said:


> current time to vaccinate everyone: 4.5 years at the current rate


I made up a calculator too, and posted the length it would take weeks ago: https://www.askaboutmoney.com/threads/delays-in-rolling-out-vaccine.221590/post-1697863

I didn't pretend that my calculator was anything more than a back of an envelope calculation of a mad man.


----------



## Merowig

Paul O Mahoney said:


> So this isn't linked to any HSE data and it can't definitively say when you might be vaccinated.
> No doubt it doesn't take any other variables into account either like increase in vaccines delivered allowing more people to be vaccinated.
> 
> I think I'll stick with my crystal ball.


It only takes into account the current rate - if the rate improves or worsens I assume it will be updated accordingly.
It is using data published by the government but is not an official website - the HSE would have likely trouble to set something like that up in the first place   nor does it shine a positive light on them


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Merowig said:


> It only takes into account the current rate - if the rate improves or worsens I assume it will be updated accordingly.
> It is using data published by the government but is not an official website - the HSE would have likely trouble to set something like that up in the first place   nor does it shine a positive light on them


In other words useless


----------



## Merowig

Paul O Mahoney said:


> In other words useless


for you perhaps - for others not


----------



## Merowig

Netherlands and Denmarks time tables for vaccinations

Was searching if Ireland has something similar but no luck so far


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Merowig said:


> for you perhaps - for others not


You mean others who can't apply simple maths , its not exactly difficult. 
Basically 52 * 40k = 1.92m (used 48 weeks , 4 weeks for contingency contingency)
Population 4.8m ? / 1.92 = 2.5 years.


----------



## Merowig

Paul O Mahoney said:


> You mean others who can't apply simple maths , its not exactly difficult.
> Basically 52 * 40k = 1.92m
> Population 4.8m ? / 1.92 = 2.5 years.



second dose vaccination completely ignored - seems to be difficult enough
point proven


----------



## Merowig

Northern Ireland time table


----------



## Ceist Beag

We don't yet know what vaccines we will have so any projection of timeline is liable to be out of date as soon as it is published. If the Astra-Zeneca vaccine is approved and if we can get the 1 million doses per month that Paul Reid said they are planning to be able to deliver monthly, then that is a complete game changer compared to any plans that rely on the Pfizer-Biontech or Moderna vaccines. Given we are barely a few weeks into vaccination and given we have been dealing with this since last March, is it not better to have a bit of patience here? I'm not saying things in Ireland are perfect but we seem to be improving after a shaky start and if we can actually deliver 1 million vaccinations per month then that should satisfy even the most impatient of people.


----------



## Purple

I spoke to a freight company about getting shipments out of the UK. They said that there is a total shop on everything due to customs issues from both the UK and Irish side. There's a shipment of vaccines sitting there for 2 days with no sign of them getting delivered.


----------



## Leo

Paul O Mahoney said:


> You mean others who can't apply simple maths , its not exactly difficult.



Well, it might be interesting to historians who want to know what the rates used to be....no, wait, even they wouldn't be interested in a stat that is point in time and out of date almost as soon as it's calculated.


----------



## Merowig

Apparently the UK version of the calculator is highly popular and several Irish media outlets have linked to the calculator as well  - seems to be there is good interest of people to get a rough estimate by when being able to get a jab....
Not just by historians....

On a different note - The UK is looking into 24/7 vaccination hubs









						Johnson: 24-7 Covid-vaccine hubs as soon as supply allows
					

The prime minister wants round-the-clock vaccination but adds supply is currently the limiting factor.



					www.bbc.com
				




Public health doctors in Ireland meanwhile consider strike action (I wonder how that works out with the Hippocratic Oath)


----------



## Purple

Merowig said:


> Public health doctors in Ireland meanwhile consider strike action (I wonder how that works out with the Hippocratic Oath)


Doctors don't take the Hippocratic Oath, haven't in generations.


----------



## RedOnion

Merowig said:


> seems to be there is good interest of people to get a rough estimate by when being able to get a jab...


But it's 'just a bit of fun'. It gives absolutely no real indication of when anyone will be vaccinated, because it can't handle enough inputs to do so. 

Media outlets love a bit of click-bait.

Just an observation, for someone who said they're not that bothered about getting the vaccination, you're spending a lot of time posting about it:


Merowig said:


> I am in no rush in any case and not even sure if I will bother at all with the vaccine.


----------



## Merowig

RedOnion said:


> Just an observation, for someone who said they're not that bothered about getting the vaccination, you're spending a lot of time posting about it:


The delay impacts the reopening in regards to restaurants, events, economic impact, etc...

Personally nothing changed.


----------



## Leo

Merowig said:


> The delay impacts the reopening in regards to restaurants, events, economic impact, etc...



People's behaviour has a much more significant and immediate impact on that.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Hse reporting 77,303 vaccines have been administered..thats a pretty big uptick on last week. 
Appears to be two sets of figures floating about, Our World data has 40k from Monday and the above figure above is 77k, must be a time lag.


----------



## Merowig

Leo said:


> People's behaviour has a much more significant and immediate impact on that.


Good luck in changing or policing some people's behavior here.


Nice catch up so far for Ireland on the vaccine front


----------



## RedOnion

Here's an alternative to using a made up calculator to estimate when you might be able be get vaccination. Plenty of caveats in it.

_"The information in the chart has been stated on the Dáil record by members of the government. The plan is highly provisional and based on assumptions around the future production and delivery schedule of vaccines that have not yet been medically approved"



			https://twitter.com/smytho/status/1349797946448031746
		

_

Edit: updated link as original tweet deleted (I'm not a Twitter user)


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ErtWee-XcAMIzhP?format=png&name=small
		

The above is a link that shows an overall rollout plan.
My linking of stuff is fairly rubbish apologies. 
Its not an official HSE document either but a TD .


----------



## joe sod

I see irish government ordering batches of the Astra zeneca vaccine now before the date the european agency meeting on january 29, obviously they have it on good authority that it is to be authorized. The same happened with the pFizer vaccine in December they brought the date forward due to massive political pressure and because Germany was furious that the UK, US and Israel had a got a big start on their vaccination programs with a vaccine that was actually mostly developed in Germany. 
Also in late December the EMA was putting out rumours that the Astra zeneca vaccine would not be authorized and would have to do more trials, then the huge upsurge with the new variants and massive political pressure to get this authorized and out there quickly.
Methinks the EMA is not solely a scientific body and that politics is as much involved in their decisions as anything, if the upsurge in corona did not happen they would have gone through the motions with the Astra zeneca vaccine and delayed its authorization by slowing down the bureacratic hoops that had to be jumped through


----------



## john luc

I want the vaccine as soon as possible but not like hearing that this is being pushed ahead of the normal scientific approach.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

joe sod said:


> I see irish government ordering batches of the Astra zeneca vaccine now before the date the european agency meeting on january 29, obviously they have it on good authority that it is to be authorized. The same happened with the pFizer vaccine in December they brought the date forward due to massive political pressure and because Germany was furious that the UK, US and Israel had a got a big start on their vaccination programs with a vaccine that was actually mostly developed in Germany.
> Also in late December the EMA was putting out rumours that the Astra zeneca vaccine would not be authorized and would have to do more trials, then the huge upsurge with the new variants and massive political pressure to get this authorized and out there quickly.
> Methinks the EMA is not solely a scientific body and that politics is as much involved in their decisions as anything, if the upsurge in corona did not happen they would have gone through the motions with the Astra zeneca vaccine and delayed its authorization by slowing down the bureacratic hoops that had to be jumped through


Astrazeneca had to redo some of its trials as it didn't know why their vaccine worked so well with half a dose, there were other issues too like age etc.
Astrazeneca didn't apply to the EMA until last week, its difficult to approve something that hasn't applied for.
Every regulatory system is political and governments are involved, look at Israel they went directly to Pfizer and told them that they could roll out faster than anyone else, Pfizer said ok as they would get data in the real world quicker. 
The EMA job is to make sure all the aspects that a vaccine are understood and comply with the standards expected.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

john luc said:


> I want the vaccine as soon as possible but not like hearing that this is being pushed ahead of the normal scientific approach.


If they are ordering independently which I haven't seen any evidence.

Just saw a story, they are asking for early delivery, to get it out to GPs but won't be administering it until after approval


----------



## joe sod

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Astrazeneca had to redo some of its trials as it didn't know why their vaccine worked so well with half a dose, there were other issues too like age etc.











						Oxford vaccine unlikely to be rolled out in EU in January as EMA look for more data on ‘quality’ of vaccine
					

THE European roll-out of the Oxford University-AstraZeneca vaccine is unlikely to take place in January, according to an official at the European Medicines Agency (EMA).




					www.independent.ie
				



this is an article from late december where an EMA official was saying that they were not going to approve it in January

_“At the moment, AstraZeneca has only provided data on their clinical trials to the European Medicines Agency,” he said.
“We need additional data on the quality of their vaccine.”
In addition, AstraZeneca has yet to submit a formal application, which is another necessary condition for the vaccine to be recommended.
This made it "improbable" that an approval could be granted next month, Mr Wathion said._

its obvious that the massive pressure as a result of the new variants pushed the EMA to cut out alot of nonsense and get on with it especially as the UK was already vaccinating tens of thousands with the Astrazeneca vaccine. unless they had some genuine information which the UK regulators did not have they had to release it.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

> its obvious that the massive pressure as a result of the new variants pushed the EMA to cut out alot of nonsense and get on with it especially as the UK was already vaccinating tens of thousands with the Astrazeneca vaccine. unless they had some genuine information which the UK regulators did not have they had to release it.


I'm confused.....are you suggesting that the EMA are turning a blind eye to issues just to approve the Astrazeneca vaccine?


----------



## Purple

joe sod said:


> Oxford vaccine unlikely to be rolled out in EU in January as EMA look for more data on ‘quality’ of vaccine
> 
> 
> THE European roll-out of the Oxford University-AstraZeneca vaccine is unlikely to take place in January, according to an official at the European Medicines Agency (EMA).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.independent.ie
> 
> 
> 
> 
> this is an article from late december where an EMA official was saying that they were not going to approve it in January
> 
> _“At the moment, AstraZeneca has only provided data on their clinical trials to the European Medicines Agency,” he said.
> “We need additional data on the quality of their vaccine.”
> In addition, AstraZeneca has yet to submit a formal application, which is another necessary condition for the vaccine to be recommended.
> This made it "improbable" that an approval could be granted next month, Mr Wathion said._
> 
> its obvious that the massive pressure as a result of the new variants pushed the EMA to cut out alot of nonsense and get on with it especially as the UK was already vaccinating tens of thousands with the Astrazeneca vaccine. unless they had some genuine information which the UK regulators did not have they had to release it.


The Astrazeneca vaccine is only 62% effective in the dose used in the UK. That is cause for concern. Those in higher risk groups should be given one of the more effective vaccines.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Purple said:


> The Astrazeneca vaccine is only 62% effective in the dose used in the UK. That is cause for concern. Those in higher risk groups should be given one of the more effective vaccines.


This was cited in another thread, but I read the vaccine is 62 to 90% effective based on certain other variables, including age.

Still though 62% is pretty high, there is also the other issue of both the Pfizer/Moderna vaccine causing problems with the very elderly particularly in Norway with side effects causing deaths. 

Its difficult to understand everything at the moment.


----------



## odyssey06

Purple said:


> The Astrazeneca vaccine is only 62% effective in the dose used in the UK. That is cause for concern. Those in higher risk groups should be given one of the more effective vaccines.



I didn't see the definition of efficacy in that article - is it symptoms free? Negative test? Or severe cases? *
e.g. No COVID-19-related hospital admissions occurred in ChAdOx1 nCoV-19 recipients, whereas ten (two of which were severe) occurred in the control groups.

If it prevents symptoms in 62% and the rest get mild symptoms but no severe cases then I guess the concern is that those with mild symptoms could still transmit the virus.
However if we have already vaccinated the vulnerable & frontline groups, then that is less of a concern.

_* Edit: Seems to be a positive PCR test & one of the common symptoms of covid_


----------



## Purple

odyssey06 said:


> I didn't see the definition of efficacy in that article - is it symptoms free? Negative test? Or severe cases?
> e.g. No COVID-19-related hospital admissions occurred in ChAdOx1 nCoV-19 recipients, whereas ten (two of which were severe) occurred in the control groups.
> 
> If it prevents symptoms in 62% and the rest get mild symptoms but no severe cases then I guess the concern is that those with mild symptoms could still transmit the virus.
> However if we have already vaccinated the vulnerable & frontline groups, then that is less of a concern.


Yep, it's not surprising the EMA requested additional data.


----------



## Leo

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Astrazeneca had to redo some of its trials as it didn't know why their vaccine worked so well with half a dose, there were other issues too like age etc.
> Astrazeneca didn't apply to the EMA until last week, its difficult to approve something that hasn't applied for.



Don't let the facts spoil Joe's conspiracy theories!


----------



## Sunny

Considering the level of co-operation within the scientific community that was needed to get these vaccines developed so quickly, is it too much to ask that regulators take a similar coordinated response to ensure all available data and analysis is shared. There seems to be large differences between the regulators that could lead to a dangerous situation where future vaccines are dispensed in markets where the regulatory approval is seen as 'softer' as desperation for access to supplies grows. I don't have an issue with the EMA taking it's time but I would question how there can be such a divergence between the UK regulator and EMA/FDA with regard to the Oxford vaccine. There are valid questions to be asked why they seemed be able to obtain UK approval so easily and yet seemed to hold off on even seeking EU approval until it was already approved and distributed in the UK. It would suggest that they knew the hurdle for obtaining EU approval was much higher than obtaining in the the UK. I know the Daily Mail readers just see 'Oxford' and think made in Britain so is quality but personally I would have less confidence in this vaccine than the others currently available


----------



## Leo

Sunny said:


> There seems to be large differences between the regulators that could lead to a dangerous situation where future vaccines are dispensed in markets where the regulatory approval is seen as 'softer' as desperation for access to supplies grows.



This is how the industry works at the moment. Regulators that don't care about compromising safety can fast-track approval as they choose. 




Sunny said:


> I don't have an issue with the EMA taking it's time but I would question how there can be such a divergence between the UK regulator and EMA/FDA with regard to the Oxford vaccine. There are valid questions to be asked why they seemed be able to obtain UK approval so easily and yet seemed to hold off on even seeking EU approval until it was already approved and distributed in the UK.



This sounds like a deliberate move by the Oxford team to ensure UK got supply first (potentially funding linked). In December, while the UK regulators were saying approval was only days away, the European regulators stated that formal approval hadn't even been submitted to them. They can't provide approval where none has been sought.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Sunny said:


> Considering the level of co-operation within the scientific community that was needed to get these vaccines developed so quickly, is it too much to ask that regulators take a similar coordinated response to ensure all available data and analysis is shared. There seems to be large differences between the regulators that could lead to a dangerous situation where future vaccines are dispensed in markets where the regulatory approval is seen as 'softer' as desperation for access to supplies grows. I don't have an issue with the EMA taking it's time but I would question how there can be such a divergence between the UK regulator and EMA/FDA with regard to the Oxford vaccine. There are valid questions to be asked why they seemed be able to obtain UK approval so easily and yet seemed to hold off on even seeking EU approval until it was already approved and distributed in the UK. It would suggest that they knew the hurdle for obtaining EU approval was much higher than obtaining in the the UK. I know the Daily Mail readers just see 'Oxford' and think made in Britain so is quality but personally I would have less confidence in this vaccine than the others currently available


I has seen reports of some people in the UK not accepting the Pfizer vaccine as its not British. 
Regarding regulatory requirements my wife has mentioned that the EMA is more rigorous in her view due to many reasons, which she can't say, but one obvious reason is they represent a lot more and diverse population.


----------



## Purple

Paul O Mahoney said:


> I has seen reports of some people in the UK not accepting the Pfizer vaccine as its not British.
> Regarding regulatory requirements my wife has mentioned that the EMA is more rigorous in her view due to many reasons, which she can't say, but one obvious reason is they represent a lot more and diverse population.


I don't know about drug approvals but for medical devices the Canadian and Japanese regulatory bodies seem to have the highest standards.


----------



## joe sod

Leo said:


> This sounds like a deliberate move by the Oxford team to ensure UK got supply first (potentially funding linked). In December, while the UK regulators were saying approval was only days away, the European regulators stated that formal approval hadn't even been submitted to them. They can't provide approval where none has been sought.



so you are saying that the UK regulators don't care about safety and their own professional reputation, come on, that that is just mud slinging. They didn't put out any false rumours unlike the EMa, they said they would expedite the approval as they were in continuous contact with astra zenaca, and they did exactly as they said they would. It's the EMA that are the problem and this is coming from every eu country


----------



## Leo

joe sod said:


> so you are saying that the UK regulators don't care about safety and their own professional reputation, come on, that that is just mud slinging. They didn't put out any false rumours unlike the EMa, they said they would expedite the approval as they were in continuous contact with astra zenaca, and they did exactly as they said they would. It's the EMA that are the problem and this is coming from every eu country



How could you possibly interpret that from what I said?

What false rumours did the EMA put out? If you're talking about the retest, then that has been confirmed, right?

What source can you point to showing all EU countries suggesting the EMA are a problem? Do you honestly believe they should approve a vaccine for release to the public before the producer has even requested it? Before they've even submitted the trial data?


----------



## Purple

Leo said:


> Do you honestly believe they should approve a vaccine for release to the public before the producer has even requested it? Before they've even submitted the trial data?


If it's good enough for an Englishman it's good enough for the rest of us, by jingo!


----------



## john luc

Purple said:


> If it's good enough for an Englishman it's good enough for the rest of us, by jingo!


But I thought only mad dogs and English men go out in the midday sun


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Ill take what ever vaccine I'm offered but I'll be honest if I can get the Pfizer or  Moderna one I'll take that. 
I'm not suggesting that Astrazeneca did anything wrong but I've yet to see a rationale why their doses gave such differing results.


----------



## odyssey06

Purple said:


> If it's good enough for an Englishman it's good enough for the rest of us, by jingo!



Nice of them to run a large scale trial for the rest of us on the Astrazeneca vaccine and maybe establish its real effectiveness.


----------



## tomdublin

Dublin hospitals gave vaccines to non-staff members
					

Two Dublin maternity hospitals have confirmed they administered vaccines to non-staff members and say it was because there were doses which would have been discarded if not used on the day.




					www.rte.ie
				




Their claim that they had to vaccinate the kids of HSE apparatschiks because they just couldn't find any front-line health care workers inside this hospital encapsulates much of what's wrong with Ireland's healthcare bureaucracy - a seemingly gargantuan sense of bureaucratic entitlement coupled with what would appear to be a view of the general public as imbeciles who will accept any excuse.


----------



## Leper

Hospital chief apologises after Covid-19 vaccines given to staff relatives (breakingnews.ie) 

So Biddy Mulligan is now ousted as Pride of the Coombe - another typical Irish queueing system!


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

tomdublin said:


> Dublin hospitals gave vaccines to non-staff members
> 
> 
> Two Dublin maternity hospitals have confirmed they administered vaccines to non-staff members and say it was because there were doses which would have been discarded if not used on the day.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.rte.ie
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Their claim that they had to vaccinate the kids of HSE apparatschiks because they just couldn't find any front-line health care workers inside this hospital encapsulates much of what's wrong with Ireland's healthcare bureaucracy - a seemingly gargantuan sense of bureaucratic entitlement coupled with what would appear to be a view of the general public as imbeciles who will accept any excuse.


The vaccine was going to waste, 200 in fact and they tracked down as many as they could were left with 16 and used them. The vaccine has a finite life.

OK the optics are wrong but whats better throw it out? 
And the above are the facts.


----------



## tomdublin

Paul O Mahoney said:


> The vaccine was going to waste, 200 in fact and they tracked down as many as they could were left with 16 and used them. The vaccine has a finite life.
> 
> OK the optics are wrong but whats better throw it out?
> And the above are the facts.


That's the official explanation but it's not credible.  Most nurses and hospital porters know other nurses and hospital porters who would have been happy to get the jab had they been asked.  There are thousands of them who have not yet been vaccinated.


----------



## RedOnion

tomdublin said:


> Their claim that they had to vaccinate the kids of HSE apparatschiks


Kids?
You realise that 9 of the 16 were over 70 years of age?


----------



## tomdublin

RedOnion said:


> Kids?
> You realise that 9 of the 16 were over 70 years of age?


And the others were of "varying ages" - I bet they employed an emergency PR consultant to come up with that phrase.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

tomdublin said:


> That's the official explanation but it's not credible.  Most nurses and hospital porters know other nurses and hospital porters who would have been happy to get the jab had they been asked.  There are thousands of them who have not yet been vaccinated.


According to you its not credible, personally I don't want to see any waste.

They did try and get others vaccinated but 16 doses were left and they were only left due to viles having more than 5 doses in them.
If the vaccines were binned you'd be giving out too.


----------



## tomdublin

Paul O Mahoney said:


> According to you its not credible, personally I don't want to see any waste.


OK so over 4 million people have not yet been vaccinated but those they could find just randomly happened to include all the hospital boss' kids?


----------



## odyssey06

Paul O Mahoney said:


> The vaccine was going to waste, 200 in fact and they tracked down as many as they could were left with 16 and used them. The vaccine has a finite life.
> OK the optics are wrong but whats better throw it out?
> And the above are the facts.



The problem is that they will need to jump the q for second dose ahead of people who need it more.
It would be more defensible with a single shot vaccine.

200 seems like a lot of vial spares or scheduled doses not taken up.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

tomdublin said:


> OK so over 4 million people have not yet been vaccinated but those they could find just randomly happened to include all the hospital boss' kids?


We don't have 4m vaccines to distribute, the vaccine has a short life once opened it needs to be used.
I'm not sure why you are so outraged by this.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

odyssey06 said:


> The problem is that they will need to jump the q for second dose ahead of people who need it more.
> It would be more defensible with a single shot vaccine.
> 
> 200 seems like a lot of vial spares or scheduled doses not taken up.


Viles apparently had more than 5 doses.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

odyssey06 said:


> The problem is that they will need to jump the q for second dose ahead of people who need it more.
> It would be more defensible with a single shot vaccine.
> 
> 200 seems like a lot of vial spares or scheduled doses not taken up.


Thats a fair point getting the second sooner but many are over 70 I believe.


----------



## odyssey06

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Viles apparently had more than 5 doses.



So in some respects it is arguable they would not have been wasted as they were not 'expected'...

I think they should have drawn the line at under 70s given the need for second dose in a limited time window.
Bumping someone up 1-2 levels is reasonable but not someone at bottom of levels.


----------



## john luc

I wonder if I could put my name down with all the hospitals and medical centers to say I'm available at immediate notice should they have a few auld vaccines going a begging. Might be worth a go.


----------



## tomdublin

The point I'm trying to make is that if they had been serious about giving *all* the remaining doses to frontline healthcare workers or members of other priority groups instead of the boss' family they could have found them even at short notice, given that this hospital is in the middle of a city of 1 million mostly unvaccinated people.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

odyssey06 said:


> So in some respects it is arguable they would not have been wasted as they were not 'expected'...
> 
> I think they should have drawn the line at under 70s given the need for second dose in a limited time window.
> Bumping someone up 1-2 levels is reasonable but not someone at bottom of levels.


Thats again fair , my view is the miniscule amount and it wasn't, from what we read premeditated.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

john luc said:


> I wonder if I could put my name down with all the hospitals and medical centers to say I'm available at immediate notice should they have a few auld vaccines going a begging. Might be worth a go.


Afraid not, this happened 4 days before the guidelines were issued.  Give it a go though and please report back


----------



## Sunny

So every member of front line staff including security, cleaners, porters, kitchen staff working in the hospital that day were vaccinated and they still had 16 left? Doubt it. Who has actually received the vaccine in that hospital? Why are maternity hospitals getting vaccines ahead of acute hospitals? Has there been huge exposure in maternity hospitals that I don't know about? There are ICU nurses and doctors from wards overrun with covid patients still waiting for a vaccination. Why are GP's getting vaccinated before them? There are over 6000 hospital staff out of work at the moment many of them simply because they were a close contact. How many GP's are currently out of work? 

The idea that they couldn't find anyone from Group 1 or even Group 2 to vaccinate at short notice is nonsense.


----------



## valery

Irish Times are reporting that 10 construction workers received the vaccine at Tralee Hospital.
the HSE need to take better control of the roll out.  Issuing guidelines 2 - 3 weeks after the first people were vaccinated shows very poor planning.


----------



## johnwilliams

this vaccine has limited lifespan ,i think 5 hours once opened ? a ambulance or garda car would cover a number of hospitals in a hour 
i think when they were talking about the vaccine rollout while back they were actually discussing having additional people on standby should someone drop out


----------



## Purple

€60 per patient for the GP's and Pharmacists seems like an extraordinarily large amount of money for what can only be 5 minutes work but that aside they are talking about them administering 1.5 million vaccines over 6 months. That's 11,538 a day based on a 5 day week. There are 1500 community pharmacists, 4000 doctors working as GP's and 2000 GP practice nurses in Ireland. That's 1.5 vaccines given by each of them each day. 
I presume that they can vaccinate more people than that so why are we only getting 1.5 million of the Oxford/Astrazeneca vaccines over a 6 month period?


----------



## Tintagel

Do the "family" of those that received the vaccine live in or beside the hospitals in question?

It strikes me that they may have had to travel in from the suburbs to avail of the left over vaccine, and at short notice.

I am sure that there were hospitals nearer than the suburbs with front line staff that would have taken up the left over vaccines?

Looks to me as if it was planned in advance.


----------



## EmmDee

The level of armchair management and griping is crazy. A hospital administers 1,100 doses in a day, has 136 left over due to no-shows, uses 120 of them on available front line staff at short notice and with the final 16 uses them on unscheduled vaccinations at the last minute (of which 9 were over 60 anyway) and people are calling a premediated disgrace.

Meanwhile in Israel, a hospital uses similar left over vaccine on a pizza delivery guy who happened to be there and they are called out for being smart - "vaccines in arms not bins" was the headline.

Some people need to wind their neck in.


----------



## Leo

Tintagel said:


> I am sure that there were hospitals nearer than the suburbs with front line staff that would have taken up the left over vaccines?



The problem you have then is who would come in to cover the staff who leave their posts to go get a vaccine in another hospital? 

The hospital where my wife works have been using staff WhatsApp groups and social media appealing to off-duty staff in the area to come in when they expect to have doses remaining.


----------



## joe sod

@Purple yes the doctors and pharmacy getting a huge amount for giving the vaccine,  30euros to inject it yet oxford and astra zzenaca are producing it at cost, at most a few euros cost of vaccine. They put the lions share of work in to get it to this stage in record time,  employing some of the best expertise working round the clock. If "big pharma " is not looking to profit surely small pharma  and doctors can do the same. The government with former  doctors like Leo are far too cozy with the medical professionals and HSE. sure we already had the scandal of Leo leaking confidential consultant contract to his mate


----------



## tomdublin

EmmDee said:


> Meanwhile in Israel, a hospital uses similar left over vaccine on a pizza delivery guy who happened to be there and they are called out for being smart - "vaccines in arms not bins" was the headline.


Pizza delivery guy is not the same as the hospital director's children.  Can't you see the conflict of interest here and how it affects public perceptions?


----------



## EmmDee

tomdublin said:


> Pizza delivery guy is not the same as the hospital director's children.  Can't you see the conflict of interest here and how it affects public perceptions?



I see the 99.42% of vaccines that went as planned. And that there weren't vaccines dumped as happened elsewhere. And it was 2 children (if I recall) - not 16. I also see how it affects you. If you want to flame the entire thing for 2 out of 1,200 cases, then fine - knock youself out.


----------



## Leo

joe sod said:


> If "big pharma " is not looking to profit...



AZ have offered to provide the vaccine at cost to low or middle income countries.  It also received billions in state funding the development, the US deal that involved significant early funding of development and trial costs with no guarantee of a return has netted them 300k doses at ~$4 per dose, development and distribution costs are under $3 per dose.


----------



## Purple

joe sod said:


> @Purple yes the doctors and pharmacy getting a huge amount for giving the vaccine,  30euros to inject it yet oxford and astra zzenaca are producing it at cost, at most a few euros cost of vaccine. They put the lions share of work in to get it to this stage in record time,  employing some of the best expertise working round the clock. If "big pharma " is not looking to profit surely small pharma  and doctors can do the same. The government with former  doctors like Leo are far too cozy with the medical professionals and HSE. sure we already had the scandal of Leo leaking confidential consultant contract to his mate


Don't forget about the massive payment they get for the over 70's GP card. The HSE requested that the payment per patient be set at €158 but they got €308. They also get a pension contribution which is linked to the gross amount they get from the State for all GMS payments.


----------



## Sunny

EmmDee said:


> The level of armchair management and griping is crazy. A hospital administers 1,100 doses in a day, has 136 left over due to no-shows, uses 120 of them on available front line staff at short notice and with the final 16 uses them on unscheduled vaccinations at the last minute (of which 9 were over 60 anyway) and people are calling a premediated disgrace.
> 
> Meanwhile in Israel, a hospital uses similar left over vaccine on a pizza delivery guy who happened to be there and they are called out for being smart - "vaccines in arms not bins" was the headline.
> 
> Some people need to wind their neck in.



Sorry that is just ridiculous. People are allowed ask questions.  We are like the Ireland of old telling people to wind their neck in when there dare to question authority or so called experts. Nobody has an issue with using the extra doses on anyone. People have an issue if it is believed that family members of hospital management are getting it ahead of frontline staff or any other priority group. Them saying 'Sure we tried to find frontline staff' might be good enough for you but it isn't for some of us. I want to know what did to make sure they tried to give it to frontline staff before deciding to vaccinate the Masters Daughter. I want to know why guidelines weren't issued on day one about extra doses considering the man on the barstool understood the limited lifespan of these vaccines and there were bound to be times when people missed appointments for what ever reason. Yet nobody thought about a standby list?? Are we really to believe that those extra doses could not have gone to a patient or a frontline staff member in the Coombe on that day. No ambulance driver was available on short notice? No Guard? No GP in the locality? No Cleaner? No Porter?

We are entitled to ask why was the IT system not in place before this vaccination programm kicked off? We are entitled to ask why the rollout seems to be so unbalanced between hospital groups. Why are private hospitals with no covid patients getting vaccines ahead of acute public hospitals. Why are certain types of staff getting it in some hospitals and not in others? Why did Maternity hospitals seem to have ended up with excess stock?(The extra doses were not exactly a surprise one day). Why are GP's who are not seeing anyone these days getting it ahead of acute hospital doctors and nurses? Why did nurses from Covid wards in Tipperary have to appeal for vaccines on social media? Should they wind their neck in as well?

It seems like now if anyone questions anything about the vaccination programme, they are committing treason. Yes they seem to be making progress and yes I am sure a lot of good people are working very hard on this but I have no interest waiting a month to find that we have wasted time on not doing things right before some big Prime Time Investigation reveals all in our typical Irish way. HSE Management and Politicans are well paid big boys. They should be able to handle questions being asked.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

In other news 94k vaccines were administered up to Sunday evening and its expected that 140k will be vaccinated by next Sunday.
There appears to be a steady increase weekly and with more vaccination avenues and vaccines becoming available we should see these figures increasing further over the next month or so.


----------



## Purple

Paul O Mahoney said:


> In other news 94k vaccines were administered up to Sunday evening and its expected that 140k will be vaccinated by next Sunday.
> There appears to be a steady increase weekly and with more vaccination avenues and vaccines becoming available we should see these figures increasing further over the next month or so.


If we want 80% of the population vaccinated by July we need to administer 290,000 a week.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Purple said:


> If we want 80% of the population vaccinated by July we need to administer 290,000 a week.


Once care homes and frontline staff are done Id imagine things will pick up, due to logistics being easier.
Hopefully.


----------



## Purple

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Once care homes and frontline staff are done Id imagine things will pick up, due to logistics being easier.
> Hopefully.


Hopefully


----------



## joe sod

H


Leo said:


> AZ have offered to provide the vaccine at cost to low or middle income countries.  It also received billions in state funding the development, the US deal that involved significant early funding of development and trial costs with no guarantee of a return has netted them 300k doses at ~$4 per dose, development and distribution costs are under $3 per dose.



and they delivered at very reasonable cost, the difficult part was developing a brand new vaccine in record time,  the easy bit should be the regulation and administering the vaccine. Why should doctors and pharmacist get at least 30 euro just to give an injection, that's gouging plane  and simple. I wonder how much the UK are charging for injecting?


----------



## Sunny

joe sod said:


> H
> 
> 
> and they delivered at very reasonable cost, the difficult part was developing a brand new vaccine in record time,  the easy bit should be the regulation and administering the vaccine. Why should doctors and pharmacist get at least 30 euro just to give an injection, that's gouging plane  and simple. I wonder how much the UK are charging for injecting?



£12.58 per dose as far as I know. Considering the State is paying the cost of the vaccine, a €30 charge to cover "costs" does seem on the face of it excessive but then again hardly surprising


----------



## Purple

Sunny said:


> £12.58 per dose as far as I know. Considering the State is paying the cost of the vaccine, a €30 charge to cover "costs" does seem on the face of it excessive but then again hardly surprising


They get €30 every time someone calls up to see if they need a Covid test... or every time they say a call was to see if someone needed a Covid test. They are just keeping the bar at a similar standard, god bless them.


----------



## Leo

joe sod said:


> and they delivered at very reasonable cost,



Now it's reasonable cost. You were claiming they were delivering it at cost with no profit!

There can be no surprise that doctors or pharmacists here would do anything other than charge for this service. Doctors routinely charge €50-60 for a consultation that might only last a couple of minutes. 

That said, this isn't a simple in, jab, out. There is prep and administration to be done, vaccinators have to field any questions the patient may have, and then a post-jab observation period that varies from 15 minutes and up depending on medical history. Having patients in observation may affect the number of other patients that can be seen in that practice.

Pre-Covid, pharmacists that offered the flu-jab charged €30+. If €30 for the Covid vaccine is gouging, I don't believe they all jumped on that cash cow, nor was there much in the way of noise on cost.


----------



## Sunny

Leo said:


> Now it's reasonable cost. You were claiming they were delivering it at cost with no profit!
> 
> There can be no surprise that doctors or pharmacists here would do anything other than charge for this service. Doctors routinely charge €50-60 for a consultation that might only last a couple of minutes.
> 
> That said, this isn't a simple in, jab, out. There is prep and administration to be done, vaccinators have to field any questions the patient may have, and then a post-jab observation period that varies from 15 minutes and up depending on medical history. Having patients in observation may affect the number of other patients that can be seen in that practice.
> 
> Pre-Covid, pharmacists that offered the flu-jab charged €30+. If €30 for the Covid vaccine is gouging, I don't believe they all jumped on that cash cow, nor was there much in the way of noise on cost.



Ah the old sure we always did it like this argument. The cost of the flu vaccine in the UK is GBP 10. Covid vaccine is GBP 12.58. I doubt Irish GP's or Irish Pharmacists are doing anything that they don't do in the UK.

There might well be a valid reason or reasons why it costs double than in the UK to do the same thing but there seems to be a large reluctance to tell us what they are. I bet if you asked, you would be told it is commercially sensitive information. As for GP's working in vaccination centres receiving €120 per hour. Who knew that giving injections was such a complicated job. How much are nurses and other non-GP's giving injections getting?


----------



## Purple

Sunny said:


> There might well be a valid reason or reasons why it costs double than in the UK


There is a perfectly valid reason; Iris GP's earn far more than GP's in the UK.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Sunny said:


> Who knew that giving injections was such a complicated job. How much are nurses and other non-GP's giving injections getting?


Or junkies?

They have vast experience. 

People need to understand that this isn't simply a jab, there are protocols to be followed and things need to be done properly. 

Market economics is a simple concept, people have the skills and facilities to do this and that comes at a cost and that cost is €60 in Ireland.


----------



## Purple

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Or junkies?
> 
> They have vast experience.
> 
> People need to understand that this isn't simply a jab, there are protocols to be followed and things need to be done properly.
> 
> Market economics is a simple concept, people have the skills and facilities to do this and that comes at a cost and that cost is €60 in Ireland.


GP's don't work in a sector which is open to market economics. They negotiate directly with the State as a group. They are, in effect, a monopoly. It's an inter-muscular injection so they don't have to find a vein, just your shoulder or the non hairy part of your backside. 

For a person who is totally non-qualified in a related field to become qualified as a phlebotomist they have to undergo a one day course. That will qualify them to give intravenous injections as well. Hardly highly skilled. The ability to read a form and fill in a few bits extra is hardly the reserve of the intelligentsia. In reality a practice nurse on about €25 an hour will give the vaccines, an administrator will do the paperwork and on the rare occasion that someone "takes a turn" the GP will look them over. 
There's a private Covid test center close to where I work. It's €120 a pop and you are in and out in 5 minutes. The vaccine will take less time.


----------



## Sunny

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Or junkies?
> 
> They have vast experience.
> 
> People need to understand that this isn't simply a jab, there are protocols to be followed and things need to be done properly.
> 
> Market economics is a simple concept, people have the skills and facilities to do this and that comes at a cost and that cost is €60 in Ireland.



Yeah because the choice is GP's or Junkies...... If we want to get ridiculous then ok....

Do you think the only people giving vaccines at the moment are GP's or trained doctors? GP's being paid €120 per hour for working at vaccine centres. Simply want to know what they are doing that is different to the other people working there giving vaccines.....


----------



## Purple

This is the advice from the US CDC on how to administer a Covid19 vaccine


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Lads why are we even talking about this? Its just typical " knowing the price of everything and the value of nothing ".

2 months ago we didn't have a vaccine, 12 months ago we were faced with a virus that nobody knew anything about, today thats still true to an extent. 

We face a simple choice either we vaccinate as many people as we can and try and prevent the deaths of our fellow citizens, 93 today alone,  or we vent our spleen on professional peoples income or belittle them by undermining their skills.

Personally I think life is far more important than €60.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Purple said:


> This is the advice from the US CDC on how to administer a Covid19 vaccine


And ?


----------



## Leo

Sunny said:


> Ah the old sure we always did it like this argument. The cost of the flu vaccine in the UK is GBP 10. Covid vaccine is GBP 12.58. I doubt Irish GP's or Irish Pharmacists are doing anything that they don't do in the UK.



No, it's that this is old news. These charges are the norm, they are not specific to the COVID vaccine roll-out and would be better addressed in a holistic approach. We're not getting good value, but that's specific to this service.


----------



## Sunny

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Lads why are we even talking about this? Its just typical " knowing the price of everything and the value of nothing ".
> 
> 2 months ago we didn't have a vaccine, 12 months ago we were faced with a virus that nobody knew anything about, today thats still true to an extent.
> 
> We face a simple choice either we vaccinate as many people as we can and try and prevent the deaths of our fellow citizens, 93 today alone,  or we vent our spleen on professional peoples income or belittle them by undermining their skills.
> 
> Personally I think life is far more important than €60.



So because we question something, it is because we don't value human life or something. And nobody is belittling or undermining anyone.

And the idea that someone is suggesting a life isn't worth €60 is just nonsensical. If we have to pay the GP's €500 to save lives then do it. All I want to know is how the cost was decided between the Government and the Medical Bodies if the same activity is being done for half the price elsewhere. Might well be valid reasons but I would have thought we have other parts of the health service that could have done with the tens of millions that we could have been saved if the same price was agreed in Ireland as in the UK. It's a perfectly reasonable question.

We have had years and years of these sorts of agreements. Just because it is Covid related doesn't make it any better. Indeed it is getting worse because we have lost perspective about what €91 million actually is. Millions. Billions. It doesn't seem to matter anymore...


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Sunny said:


> So because we question something, it is because we don't value human life or something. And nobody is belittling or undermining anyone.
> 
> And the idea that someone is suggesting a life isn't worth €60 is just nonsensical. If we have to pay the GP's €500 to save lives then do it. All I want to know is how the cost was decided between the Government and the Medical Bodies if the same activity is being done for half the price elsewhere. Might well be valid reasons but I would have thought we have other parts of the health service that could have done with the tens of millions that we could have been saved if the same price was agreed in Ireland as in the UK. It's a perfectly reasonable question.
> 
> We have had years and years of these sorts of agreements. Just because it is Covid related doesn't make it any better. Indeed it is getting worse because we have lost perspective about what €91 million actually is. Millions. Billions. It doesn't seem to matter anymore...


Why do you need to know what difference does it make that you know?
You claim that if it was €500 you'd be happy but you aren't happy at €60?

The €91m has been explained in detail and widely in the media and the Minister has been up front with the costs.


----------



## Sunny

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Why do you need to know what difference does it make that you know?
> You claim that if it was €500 you'd be happy but you aren't happy at €60?
> 
> The €91m has been explained in detail and widely in the media and the Minister has been up front with the costs.



Because its my money. I am entitled to ask. That's how democracy works. The 91 million hasn't been explained in detail. We have got no detail. Other groups like  st John ambulance staff are also going to be involved in providing vaccinations. I doubt they are going to get getting 60 euro for two injections or 120 per hour for working at vaccine centres. I don't see why you are so defensive about people questioning the spending of 91 million. You seem to be suggesting that it is because it is such a specialised function. Its not. They have made it clear that they will be training thousands of people to administer the vaccine. Are they all on €120 per hour???


----------



## Sunny

Last comment on this. This is not going to be a once off vaccination shot. We will probably need this at least annually. Like Leo said, we seem to just looked at the cost of the flu jab and decided that was the going rate instead of actually seeing what the cost was. I am sorry if expecting more detail around something that will cost over €100m if not hundreds of millions every single year is expecting too much.


----------



## joe sod

Purple said:


> GP's don't work in a sector which is open to market economics. They negotiate directly with the State as a group. They are, in effect, a monopoly. It's an inter-muscular injection so they don't have to find a vein, just your shoulder or the non hairy part of your backside.


I heard a piece on newstalk business this morning that the Bould Leo wants to give the competition authority even more powers which only the gardai now have to snoop on private businesses to find out if they are price fixing, even allowing competition authority personnel to pretend they are  business people from competing companies. 
Yet we have sweet heart deals between government, Doctors and pharmacies and the Bould Leo even engaged in price fixing himself by leaking confidential information on pay to a mate from a rival doctors organisation. Its great when you are inside the tent alright.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Sunny said:


> Because its my money. I am entitled to ask. That's how democracy works. The 91 million hasn't been explained in detail. We have got no detail. Other groups like  st John ambulance staff are also going to be involved in providing vaccinations. I doubt they are going to get getting 60 euro for two injections or 120 per hour for working at vaccine centres. I don't see why you are so defensive about people questioning the spending of 91 million. You seem to be suggesting that it is because it is such a specialised function. Its not. They have made it clear that they will be training thousands of people to administer the vaccine. Are they all on €120 per hour???


How's it your money?

If you are trying to say that your taxes are paying for it , it is, but isn't that whats tax is about to cover the cost of health and other stuff?

If you feel so strongly don't get the vaccine as a point of principle. 

We need the population vaccinated and that costs money, if you can come up with some other methods please share them.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Sunny said:


> Last comment on this. This is not going to be a once off vaccination shot. We will probably need this at least annually. Like Leo said, we seem to just looked at the cost of the flu jab and decided that was the going rate instead of actually seeing what the cost was. I am sorry if expecting more detail around something that will cost over €100m if not hundreds of millions every single year is expecting too much.


Whats the alternative? Honestly how else are we going to protect people?

I'm open to hearing alternatives but I simply can't see the issue here, either we pay or we don't and be left with an economy that will take more lives than the virus.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

joe sod said:


> I heard a piece on newstalk business this morning that the Bould Leo wants to give the competition authority even more powers which only the gardai now have to snoop on private businesses to find out if they are price fixing, even allowing competition authority personnel to pretend they are  business people from competing companies.
> Yet we have sweet heart deals between government, Doctors and pharmacies and the Bould Leo even engaged in price fixing himself by leaking confidential information on pay to a mate from a rival doctors organisation. Its great when you are inside the tent alright.


What has this got to do with rolling out the vaccine?


----------



## Purple

Paul O Mahoney said:


> And ?


And it doesn't require a "Healthcare Professional" to administer it.


----------



## Purple

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Lads why are we even talking about this? Its just typical " knowing the price of everything and the value of nothing ".
> 
> 2 months ago we didn't have a vaccine, 12 months ago we were faced with a virus that nobody knew anything about, today thats still true to an extent.
> 
> We face a simple choice either we vaccinate as many people as we can and try and prevent the deaths of our fellow citizens, 93 today alone,  or we vent our spleen on professional peoples income or belittle them by undermining their skills.
> 
> Personally I think life is far more important than €60.


Every Euro spent on this is a Euro that isn't spent on something else. We have amongst the highest paid doctors and nurses in the world. We are in the top 15 on healthcare spending in the world yet we have a very young population. This and things like it is the reason we have patients dying on trolleys in hospitals and kids with scoliosis waiting years for treatment. We have a very badly run healthcare system with disjointed oversight and way too much power wielded by the various unions, including the doctors unions.  
It is baffling that anyone thinks we shouldn't question this.


----------



## Purple

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Whats the alternative? Honestly how else are we going to protect people?
> 
> I'm open to hearing alternatives but I simply can't see the issue here, either we pay or we don't and be left with an economy that will take more lives than the virus.


The alternative is to pay them less to do the same thing. Are GP's going to refuse to administer it?


----------



## Purple

Paul O Mahoney said:


> We need the population vaccinated and that costs money, if you can come up with some other methods please share them.


See above.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Som


Purple said:


> And it doesn't require a "Healthcare Professional" to administer it.


In America we use them here and they have places where the vaccine can be rolled out including rural areas.

You and others are against the payment that they've negotiated , fine, but my view is the vaccine rollout is paramount and spending months negotiating the price is frankly a waste of time, time that is precious.


----------



## Purple

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Som
> 
> In America we use them here and they have places where the vaccine can be rolled out including rural areas.
> 
> You and others are against the payment that they've negotiated , fine, but my view is the vaccine rollout is paramount and spending months negotiating the price is frankly a waste of time, time that is precious.


They negotiated it? Really?
It looks like they told the State what they were willing to do it for and the State said "yes boss!"


----------



## Grizzly

Purple said:


> They negotiated it? Really?
> It looks like they told the State what they were willing to do it for and the State said "yes boss!"


This should have been sorted in early December and not mid January.


----------



## Purple

Grizzly said:


> This should have been sorted in early December and not mid January.


Every monopoly which negotiates with the government have an effective veto over the Government in their specific area. That includes GP's, Consultants, Nurses, Teachers and just about every other part of the  State sector.


----------



## Purple

joe sod said:


> Yet we have sweet heart deals between government, Doctors and pharmacies and the Bould Leo even engaged in price fixing himself by leaking confidential information on pay to a mate from a rival doctors organisation. Its great when you are inside the tent alright.


That would have created competition within the sector.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Purple said:


> They negotiated it? Really?
> It looks like they told the State what they were willing to do it for and the State said "yes boss!"


And you know this for a fact? What your feelings are aren't facts. 
The truth is not one of us knows what happened.


----------



## Purple

Paul O Mahoney said:


> And you know this for a fact? What your feelings are aren't facts.
> The truth is not one of us knows what happened.


I don't know it for a fact but given that the GP's have 100% of the power, they can say yes or no and they negotiate as a single body, what do you think happened? It is telling that they got almost 100% more than the HSE recommended for the over 70's GP card. How do you think that negotiation want?
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it's a duck.


----------



## joe sod

Purple said:


> That would have created competition within the sector.


The point is that the government is very heavy handed with even a sniff of price fixing and anti competition in the private sector yet they collude with price fixing in the public sector.They are not prepared to let stake holders hang out to dry, whether it is teachers, doctors etc


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Purple said:


> I don't know it for a fact but given that the GP's have 100% of the power, they can say yes or no and they negotiate as a single body, what do you think happened?


Of course they negotiated as a single body thats what representative bodies do, its mirrored all over the economy.
The alternative is 4000 separate negotiations.
I have no idea what happened other than the result.
And as I've said the rollout is more important right now, every resource needs to be used to get the economy, people lives back to something approaching normal.


----------



## Purple

joe sod said:


> The point is that the government is very heavy handed with even a sniff of price fixing and anti competition in the private sector yet they collude with price fixing in the public sector.They are not prepared to let stake holders hang out to dry, whether it is teachers, doctors etc


Couldn't agree more. They went after the motor trade which is a low margin business where Union agreements mean much of their wage costs are fixed across the sector and margins on credit are also effectively fixed but they don't go after the so called professions.


----------



## Purple

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Of course they negotiated as a single body thats what representative bodies do, its mirrored all over the economy.


Really? When I quote for work for my multinational customers I don't do so in collusion with my competitors. 
Why can't hospitals compete with each other for State contracts? Why can't the State offer prices to GP's who can then decide as individuals whether or not to accept the work?


----------



## tomdublin

Purple said:


> Every monopoly which negotiates with the government have an effective veto over the Government in their specific area. That includes GP's, Consultants, Nurses, Teachers and just about every other part of the  State sector.


The government has monopoly power too when negotiating with those vested interests (nobody else pays teachers) but for some reason it's not using this power.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Purple said:


> Really? When I quote for work for my multinational customers I don't do so in collusion with my competitors.
> Why can't hospitals compete with each other for State contracts? Why can't the State offer prices to GP's who can then decide as individuals whether or not to accept the work?


Comparing a multinational and our hospitals and health service isn't possible as both are completely different. 

I don't even know how to respond to the suggestion of getting our health service to " compete" for state contracts the hospitals are owned by the state and their primary role is to treat illnesses not make a profit.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

We've gone off topic.


----------



## Purple

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Comparing a multinational and our hospitals and health service isn't possible as both are completely different.
> 
> I don't even know how to respond to the suggestion of getting our health service to " compete" for state contracts the hospitals are owned by the state and their primary role is to treat illnesses not make a profit.


Most hospitals are not owned by the State. They are funded by the State but they are privately owned. It's not about making a profit, it's about value for money. At the moment there is no incentive for a hospital to be efficient or well run.


----------



## Purple

Paul O Mahoney said:


> We've gone off topic.


Kind of, but the broader structure and structural inefficiencies within the broader health service is and will be the primary driver in delays to vaccinations as more doses become available. Bloated costs and other poor health outcomes are already symptoms of the problem. As things stand there is no incentive to change the status quo and no mechanism to change it even if there was a willingness to do so by the vested interests within the sector.


----------



## Grizzly

Vaccinations | Coronavirus in the UK (data.gov.uk) 

Almost the population of Ireland in numbers now vaccinated in the UK.


----------



## Purple

Grizzly said:


> Vaccinations | Coronavirus in the UK (data.gov.uk)
> 
> Almost the population of Ireland in numbers now vaccinated in the UK.


In fairness to the HSE etc they can't vaccinate without vaccines.


----------



## Ceist Beag

Grizzly said:


> Vaccinations | Coronavirus in the UK (data.gov.uk)
> 
> Almost the population of Ireland in numbers now vaccinated in the UK.


That sounds about right, given that they have 12 times the population and had an extra month head start.


----------



## joe sod

A big disappointment with the delay in producing the astra zenaca vaccine.Luke o Neill was saying that maybe the eu could sue over breach of contract however I doubt that seen as it is a brand new drug and the eu have not approved it yet. If that was the case a drug company could sue a regulator. In any case the astra zenaca share price is actually up today so can't see any litigation on horizon, it would be a very bad precedent anyway when we need these companies to take risks to produce these much needed drugs


----------



## Leo

joe sod said:


> Luke o Neill was saying that maybe the eu could sue over breach of contract however I doubt that seen as it is a brand new drug and the eu have not approved it yet.



The EU & AZ signed a contract, AZ are now saying they will be unable to meet the terms of this contract, so the EU are clearly entitled to sue for breach of contract if they so choose. Whether they will of not is another matter, but even the threat of it may mean they can influence future contracts in the EU's favour.


----------



## Grizzly

Ceist Beag said:


> That sounds about right, given that they have 12 times the population and had an extra month head start.


If we have administered 170,000 x12.....How does that equate to nearly 6 million vaccinated in the UK.  We got our vaccines on the 26th December.


----------



## TrundleAlong

Purple said:


> In fairness to the HSE etc they can't vaccinate without vaccines.


I hope that any company producing vaccines will not sell their production to any country who approaches them with a large cheque.  I hope the EU have ordered enough, because these companies once they have fulfilled their contract will be free to sell to the highest bidder.


----------



## joe sod

@Leo but they also signed contracts with other drug companies like Sanofi. Surely the timeliness of delivery is up to the drug companies I would say, the fact that they did not approve it yet would mean nothing has been breached as delivery has not actually started,  might explain why they are doing this now before the eu regulators meeting to approve it. Its just my thoughts I'm no expert, I think they should be cut some slack though,  if eu were to try litigation route it would delay other drug companies submitting vaccines, how can you guarantee production of a completely new drug which had to overcome big hurdle in development


----------



## Leo

Grizzly said:


> If we have administered 170,000 x12.....How does that equate to nearly 6 million vaccinated in the UK.  We got our vaccines on the 26th December.



You're forgetting to account for the month head start.


----------



## Leo

joe sod said:


> however the timeliness of delivery is up to the drug companies I would say,



It clearly isn't. Would you sign a contract like that and hand over hundreds of millions in advance without delivery criteria? AZ have themselves acknowledged they will fail to meet the agreed delivery targets.



joe sod said:


> how can you guarantee production of a completely new drug which had to overcome big hurdle in development



Like any development contract, you craft terms based on target date for completion of development.


----------



## joe sod

I doubt they signed a concrete delivery schedule for a brand new novel drug. By that rationale no vaccines would be delivered for years because the drug companies would have to ensure that first the regulator's would approve it and secondly they have full production up and running with all the glitches sorted.


----------



## Leo

joe sod said:


> I doubt they signed a concrete delivery schedule for a brand new novel drug.



Why do you think they have said themselves they are going to miss the agreed delivery schedule? The funding the EU gave them in the middle of last year was specifically geared towards supporting the ongoing trials and at accelerating production volumes. When the deal was finalised in August, phase 2 & 3 trials were underway, so AZ should have had a very good handle on timelines from there. Let's not forget AZ's commitment to that deal also got them very valuable indemnities. 



joe sod said:


> and secondly they have full production up and running with all the glitches sorted.



That's not how big pharma or any other major producers operate. Production scale is carefully planned along JIT (Just In Time) models to optimise revenue and cash flows.


----------



## Ceist Beag

Grizzly said:


> If we have administered 170,000 x12.....How does that equate to nearly 6 million vaccinated in the UK.  We got our vaccines on the 26th December.


At roughly the same period after they began vaccinations in the UK, they had administered 1381656 doses (source). We have administered 143000 doses in that period (source).  Our rate after roughly 4 weeks is ahead of where the UK was after roughly 4 weeks.
Obviously their rate has gone up now that they have access to the Oxford vaccine but as others have pointed out, we're being restricted in that regard so I don't know what point it is you're trying to make here. The facts seem to show we are performing at least on a par with how the UK was performing when you compare like with like.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

We really need to stop comparisons, there are so many variables its impossible for any meaningful comparison to be done.

143000 people have now been vaccinated and some have received their second dose.

Obviously we face issues and these were bound to happen we just need to keep going with what we have , hopefully supply will increase and eventually we get the vast number of the population vaccinated in the coming months. 

Supply is going to be key.


----------



## Purple

I presume that the first cohort of people in vulnerable groups are harder to get to; the person administering the vaccine has to travel to them. They might only get to two of three care homes a day with a few dozen people vaccinated.

When we start vaccinating less vulnerable groups they will be able to travel to the vaccination center. At that stage the number of vaccines administered per hour will be vastly greater.


----------



## Odea

Purple said:


> In fairness to the HSE etc they can't vaccinate without vaccines.


Yet our minister for health is making announcements, stating that next month they will start vaccinating those over 85.  A great man for saying "what they will be doing".  Maybe concentrate on the front line staff first minister?


----------



## Purple

Odea said:


> Yet our minister for health is making announcements, stating that next month they will start vaccinating those over 85.  A great man for saying "what they will be doing".  Maybe concentrate on the front line staff first minister?


I heard him qualifying his statements about the vaccination schedule with the caveat that it is dependent on the availability of vaccines.


----------



## Odea

Purple said:


> I heard him qualifying his statements about the vaccination schedule with the caveat that it is dependent on the availability of vaccines.


So he doesn't really know then. It's like he is constantly "distracting" and talking about what might happen.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Odea said:


> So he doesn't really know then. It's like he is constantly "distracting" and talking about what might happen.


Well, he can only go on what information is available, his staff would have thought that we were getting x number of Astrazeneca vaccines and y number of Pfizer/BioNTech vaccines, those figures were based on agreements with the EU and what the EU agreed with manufacturers .

And to be fair I doubt very much he is purposely sending out false information. 

People's expectations are another issue here, they seem to think that the vaccine will be the panacea of all our ills , they aren't, and the population need to accept this.


----------



## Merowig

TrundleAlong said:


> I hope that any company producing vaccines will not sell their production to any country who approaches them with a large cheque.  I hope the EU have ordered enough, because these companies once they have fulfilled their contract will be free to sell to the highest bidder.


Companies like Pfizer and Moderna already sold future production batches to countries like the US and Israel who bought up large quantities from multiple producers without knowing which one will work and when it will be available. Also they were willing to pay much more.
The EU was very reluctant to do the same and started late and with smaller numbers ordered with that kind of contracts


----------



## Leo

Odea said:


> So he doesn't really know then. It's like he is constantly "distracting" and talking about what might happen.



In fairness, the only alternative to the current approach is to only comment on, and commit to vaccinations when we have the vaccine in the country. No one would be happy with that.


----------



## joe sod

Merowig said:


> The EU was very reluctant to do the same and started late and with smaller numbers ordered with that kind of contracts


I wonder why the reluctance, was it a desire to be seen as virtuous and not ouybidding poorer countries or something? In any case I doubt the member countries will thank them for their virtue. I can see the European medicines agency becoming obsolete after this as countries decide to go it alone or form their own alliances with like minded countries.


----------



## Merowig

joe sod said:


> I wonder why the reluctance, was it a desire to be seen as virtuous and not ouybidding poorer countries or something? In any case I doubt the member countries will thank them for their virtue. I can see the European medicines agency becoming obsolete after this as countries decide to go it alone or form their own alliances with like minded countries.


Cyprus tries to get potential Israeli surplus vaccine - this might be even perhaps legal as they go to a government directly and not to a pharmaceutical company - Germany might do its own additional deal as well with BionTech/Pfizer but that would be "illegal"  
But on the other hand I doubt a sanction mechanism is in place for side deals


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Merowig said:


> Cyprus tries to get potential Israeli surplus vaccine - this might be even perhaps legal as they go to a government directly and not to a pharmaceutical company - Germany might do its own additional deal as well with BionTech/Pfizer but that would be "illegal"
> But on the other hand I doubt a sanction mechanism is in place for side deals


And how would Pfizer make these additional vaccines given that its at full capacity now and doesn't have any more plants that can be used to produce more?


----------



## Merowig

Paul O Mahoney said:


> And how would Pfizer make these additional vaccines given that its at full capacity now and doesn't have any more plants that can be used to produce more?


The same like Israel is getting additional unscheduled deliveries - someone else will get delayed deliveries due to "technical problems".


On the case of Germany








						Commission lets Germany off the hook for coronavirus vaccine solidarity breach
					

Germany confirms it will receive 30 million extra BioNTech/Pfizer doses outside of EU deal.




					www.politico.eu
				











						Germany secured 50 million vaccine doses from CureVac, BioNTech on top of EU supplies - document
					

The German government signed two preliminary deals with German biotech firms BioNTech and CureVac in the summer to secure 50 million doses of their COVID-19 vaccines, according to a health ministry document and an official.




					www.reuters.com
				




On Israel getting additional deliveries 








						Israel in Deal With Pfizer to Speed Vaccine Deliveries for Data
					






					www.bloomberg.com
				



.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Merowig said:


> The same like Israel is getting additional unscheduled deliveries - someone else will get delayed deliveries due to "technical problems".


Israel are getting unscheduled deliveries? I assume you can provide a link to this. 

So you are saying that Pfizer will do deals and pretend that they have issues to cover the vaccines that are being shipped to countries that have done a deal privately?


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Merowig said:


> The same like Israel is getting additional unscheduled deliveries - someone else will get delayed deliveries due to "technical problems".
> 
> 
> On the case of Germany
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Commission lets Germany off the hook for coronavirus vaccine solidarity breach
> 
> 
> Germany confirms it will receive 30 million extra BioNTech/Pfizer doses outside of EU deal.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.politico.eu
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Germany secured 50 million vaccine doses from CureVac, BioNTech on top of EU supplies - document
> 
> 
> The German government signed two preliminary deals with German biotech firms BioNTech and CureVac in the summer to secure 50 million doses of their COVID-19 vaccines, according to a health ministry document and an official.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reuters.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Israel getting additional deliveries
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Israel in Deal With Pfizer to Speed Vaccine Deliveries for Data
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bloomberg.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


So Israel did a deal with Pfizer for more vaccines in order to get detailed analysis on the vaccines effects.......is that "unscheduled deliveries "?
Germany did a deal with BioNTech, which the vaccines will come from BioNTechs production when that starts, whenever that will be.


----------



## Merowig

I have linked above already on Israel - Pfizer speeds up deliveries to Israel after Netanyahu made some phone calls.
The EU behaved and still behaves slowly - Israel pays e.g. double what the EU pays to Pfizer on the other hand and is giving out data back to them (Ireland wouldn't be able although a lot of IT companies pay here taxes nominally  )

The US also spent a lot of money on securing deliveries from Pfizer and others early - and also paying more than Europe for it.





> (...)
> Far from having ordered too little of the “American” vaccine, the EU sat back while the US and other countries stocked up on doses of a vaccine that was created and produced in a German lab. The EU is guilty not of protectionism, but of institutional inflexibility. The slow vaccine rollout in many European countries is the result of the EU’s failure to coordinate the interests of the various member states. Whereas some countries balked at the price of BioNTech’s mRNA vaccine, others were skeptical about its new gene-based technological underpinnings, and still others simply did not recognize the urgency of the situation, having assumed that the worst of the pandemic had already passed.
> (...)
> While the US, the United Kingdom, Japan, and Canada jostled last July and August to secure huge batches of the BioNTech vaccine, the EU initially placed its orders only with Sanofi and AstraZeneca, both of which subsequently admitted difficulties in clinical trials. Not until November – when journalists started asking pointed questions – did the EU strike its first deal for a batch of the BioNTech vaccine. This was followed in December and early January by further purchases, including from Moderna.



Israel, Canada and the US placed orders with multiple producers early and for high numbers of batches - the EU started late and didn't order in advance enough batches.


----------



## Merowig

Paul O Mahoney said:


> So Israel did a deal with Pfizer for more vaccines in order to get detailed analysis on the vaccines effects.......is that "unscheduled deliveries "?



Speeding up deliveries - moving delivery dates forward means that the new earlier delivery date was not previously scheduled.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Merowig said:


> Speeding up deliveries - moving delivery dates forward means that the new earlier delivery date was not previously scheduled.


They did a deal that Israel bought more vaccines in order for Pfizer to get data on the effectiveness of the vaccines. 
Its a perfectly legitimate thing to do, and a very clever one. 
Bourla identified that the Israeli health systems were the perfect place to distribute a lot of vaccines and get real data from the population. 
There was nothing clandestine in doing this.


----------



## Sunny

It's hardly outrageous to suggest that the EU have made a complete balls of this so far. The EU reached an agreement with AstraZeneca with a significant upfront payment to help ramp up production for when the vaccine was approved. Despite this large upfront payment, they seem to have been completely blindsided by production problems so it seems like the EU did what the EU do best. They wrote a large cheque without any follow up to ensure that the money was spent as it was meant to be. People can only go on what they are hearing. There is silence from AstraZeneca and outrage from the EU including the usually mild tempered Germans. It is pretty clear that the company have not produced as much as they thought they would (which asks the question why is this suddenly announced as should have been blatantly clear to all parties before now) or they have sold supplies that were meant for the EU to another party. (Guess who)

Maybe there are really complicated reasons behind this but they aren't exactly issuing strong statements going beyond production problems in a EU manufacturing site. Meanwhile the EU are talking about export controls for all vaccines produced in the EU. To go down that road or even suggest it, it wouldn't be beyond the realms of possibility that the EU got screwed or at the least completely took their eye off the ball. 

And this is only one vaccine. The EU hardly covered themselves in glory with the Pfizer one either......


----------



## Leo

Sunny said:


> It is pretty clear that the company have not produced as much as they thought they would (which asks the question why is this suddenly announced as should have been blatantly clear to all parties before now) or they have sold supplies that were meant for the EU to another party. (Guess who)



The fact that the EU are demanding detailed information on production and exports suggest they believe they reneged on the terms of the deal to supply other parties. Companies of AZ's scale do run into production issues from time to time, but so far they have been unable to explain what these issues are in direct meetings with the EU. That suggests they're hiding something or are incompetent...


----------



## Merowig

Paul O Mahoney said:


> They did a deal that Israel bought more vaccines in order for Pfizer to get data on the effectiveness of the vaccines.
> Its a perfectly legitimate thing to do, and a very clever one.
> Bourla identified that the Israeli health systems were the perfect place to distribute a lot of vaccines and get real data from the population.
> There was nothing clandestine in doing this.



The articles clearly state speedup deliveries for Israel in exchange of Data. Other countries obviously face a delay then.
Never claimed it is not legitimate - it is  in my opinion every countries duty to look after its citizens first.
And yes Israel manages the whole vaccination program - from procurement to administration admirably.


----------



## Purple

joe sod said:


> I can see the European medicines agency becoming obsolete after this as countries decide to go it alone or form their own alliances with like minded countries.


That's not going to happen. We, for example, would not have the expertise or budget to do what they do. The EU may have dropped the ball, we don't have enough information to say that for sure at the moment, but the EMA are not the reason for this current problem.


----------



## Merowig

I agree EMA won't become obsolete - I do not see it happening at all - but some countries might follow Germany/Cyprus and trying to do their own side deals in order to source more vaccines faster.


----------



## joe sod

Paul O Mahoney said:


> They did a deal that Israel bought more vaccines in order for Pfizer to get data on the effectiveness of the vaccines.
> Its a perfectly legitimate thing to do, and a very clever one.
> Bourla identified that the Israeli health systems were the perfect place to distribute a lot of vaccines and get real data from the population.
> There was nothing clandestine in doing this.


Doesn't that highlight the difficulty and shortcomings of the EU in doing deals like this in an emergency situation. Israel was able to do a deal like this while taking some risk admittedly but clearly decided that it was worth doing. Even if the EU tried to act quickly it would get bogged down in consent and GDPR stuff. The EU is not agile and quick and countries resort to their own means when hit with an emergency as is happening again. The same thing happened during the migration crisis in 2015 it was every country for themselves and the EU protocols were abandoned even by Germany.


----------



## Merowig

To be fair without the EU deal the vaccine would had been more expensive for the EU member countries - also very doubtful Ireland would have managed it in an agile way like Israel did if it was on its own.


----------



## Purple

Irish Times article on Astra Zeneca response.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Purple said:


> Irish Times article on Astra Zeneca response.


Its turning into a right kerfuffle. I thought I heard that the EU are asking for the contract in its entirety to be published, Sky News was on as I passed.


----------



## Purple

It does look like the EU dropped the ball early on and are looking for cover.


----------



## Purple

We are the third largest exporter of Pharmaceuticals globally. It is remarkable that no vaccine is produced here,


----------



## Sunny

Purple said:


> We are the third largest exporter of Pharmaceuticals globally. It is remarkable that no vaccine is produced here,



Can't spare the capacity. Men still need the lift from Viagra and women still need to get rid of wrinkles with botox!


----------



## Sunny

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Its turning into a right kerfuffle. I thought I heard that the EU are asking for the contract in its entirety to be published, Sky News was on as I passed.



Indeed. This is going to get nasty









						EU and AstraZeneca fail to make breakthrough, says EU
					

The European Union and AstraZeneca have failed to make a breakthrough over delayed Covid-19 vaccine deliveries, the bloc's health chief has said.




					www.rte.ie


----------



## Purple

MSD are one of the worlds biggest generics manufacturers so they have the capacity to onboard vaccine and other manufacturing processes developed elsewhere. They employ around 3000 people in their 6 sites here. Is anyone talking to them?
Pfizer are already making their vaccine and using their Grange Castle facility for testing but why aren't they manufacturing there? That facility specialises in Protein Drug Discovery so they are as close to ready as any plant in the world. Pfizer also employ over 3000 people here.


----------



## Sunny

Purple said:


> MSD are one of the worlds biggest generics manufacturers so they have the capacity to onboard vaccine and other manufacturing processes developed elsewhere. They employ around 3000 people in their 6 sites here. Is anyone talking to them?
> Pfizer are already making their vaccine and using their Grange Castle facility for testing but why aren't they manufacturing there? That facility specialises in Protein Drug Discovery so they are as close to ready as any plant in the world. Pfizer also employ over 3000 people here.



I think the French Government put pressure on Sonofi to produce rivals vaccines since they weren't ready with their own so they will be producing Pfizer one by the summer. I doubt we are doing the same.


----------



## joe sod

that article puts alot of rumour mongering about the astra zenaca vaccine to bed. They didn't test so much on the older age groups because oxford wanted good data on the younger age group first, suggesting that it had low efficacy in older age groups was just lies and rumour mongering. Also the UK ordered their vaccines 3 months before Eu so they had 3 extra months to sort production issues for UK sites. There was no firm contract to deliver a set amount of vaccines by a set date,  merely their "best efforts ". The Eu and ema were simply too slow in getting their house in order.


----------



## Purple

joe sod said:


> that article puts alot of rumour mongering about the astra zenaca vaccine to bed. They didn't test so much on the older age groups because oxford wanted good data on the younger age group first, suggesting that it had low efficacy in older age groups was just lies and rumour mongering. Also the UK ordered their vaccines 3 months before Eu so they had 3 extra months to sort production issues for UK sites. There was no firm contract to deliver a set amount of vaccines by a set date,  merely their "best efforts ". The Eu and ema were simply too slow in getting their house in order.


That's what it looks like alright. I also admire the way they are resisting pressure to ship to rich countries first.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Sunny said:


> I think the French Government put pressure on Sonofi to produce rivals vaccines since they weren't ready with their own so they will be producing Pfizer one by the summer. I doubt we are doing the same.


Thats one there may be more . They will be filling the vials.
Grangecastle is producing other vaccines and its operating at capacity.
A few years ago it was going expand as it has the land but that was shelved.
Merck does have plants but are they vaccine ready ? Merck isn't pursuing their vaccine so might have capacity elsewhere.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

joe sod said:


> that article puts alot of rumour mongering about the astra zenaca vaccine to bed. They didn't test so much on the older age groups because oxford wanted good data on the younger age group first, suggesting that it had low efficacy in older age groups was just lies and rumour mongering. Also the UK ordered their vaccines 3 months before Eu so they had 3 extra months to sort production issues for UK sites. There was no firm contract to deliver a set amount of vaccines by a set date,  merely their "best efforts ". The Eu and ema were simply too slow in getting their house in order.


Does it?  Thats one side of the story from Astrazeneca. 
The EU want them to publish the contract and let everyone see what was agreed.

I'm not sure how this is going to be resolved but there is plenty of information from both sides to be verified .


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Sunny said:


> Indeed. This is going to get nasty
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EU and AstraZeneca fail to make breakthrough, says EU
> 
> 
> The European Union and AstraZeneca have failed to make a breakthrough over delayed Covid-19 vaccine deliveries, the bloc's health chief has said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.rte.ie


Apparently its going ahead , that's going to a fun meeting.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Just to keep the information flowing, watching the BBC news and they mentioned a company Valneva who are producing their own vaccine in Scotland.  They are a French Biontech.
They are still in trials but the UK has already ordered 60m doses.
I never heard of this company but its good news


----------



## Purple

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Just to keep the information flowing, watching the BBC news and they mentioned a company Valneva who are producing their own vaccine in Scotland.  They are a French Biontech.
> They are still in trials but the UK has already ordered 60m doses.
> I never heard of this company but its good news


Meanwhile the EU Commission has "Concluded exploratory talks" with them.


----------



## Merowig

Britain and EU clash over claims to UK-produced Covid vaccine
					

EU health commissioner dismisses AstraZeneca argument it is contractually obliged to supply UK first




					www.theguardian.com
				





> (...)
> In a withering statement, Stella Kyriakides said the UK should not earn any advantage from signing a contract with AstraZeneca three months before the EU’s executive branch put pen to paper.
> (...)
> “The UK agreement was reached in June, three months before the European one,” Soriot said. “As you could imagine, the UK government said the supply coming out of the UK supply chain would go for the UK first. Basically that’s how it is.”
> (...)


----------



## Leo

Purple said:


> Meanwhile the EU Commission has "Concluded exploratory talks" with them.



Will be interesting to see where this ends up. The fact that they signed a deal with the UK first can't in any way absolve them of the terms of the EU contract, and their response must be galling to the EU who funded much of their capacity expansion. I wonder what was the difference between the August iteration of the EU contract and the one reported as sealed in June via the IVA.


----------



## odyssey06

Seem to be growing reports that EMA will only authorize AZ vaccine for *under* 65s, and up to individual countries if they want to give emergency authorization for use on over 65s. This greatly complicates our vaccine rollout strategy as I think government had planned on distributing this to over 70s via GP network. Also, you may have at risk people understandably demanding Pfizer instead..


----------



## Odea

odyssey06 said:


> Also, you may have at risk people understandably demanding Pfizer instead..


Or simply asking for a choice of vaccine?  I would like a choice but I know that this will be laughed at....


----------



## valery

Why not give us a choice? According to the German Health Minister around 8% of participants in the AstraZeneca trial were over 65
and they quote a figure of 341.  Around 4% were over 70.  The government has latterly come in for criticism for recommending cocooning for this age group at the beginning of the pandemic and creating the impression that it was a legal requirement.  Now they are hell bend,if they receive approval, on vaccinating us with the least effective vaccine available.
We are not children, we are able to weight up the risks


----------



## Purple

valery said:


> Why not give us a choice? According to the German Health Minister around 8% of participants in the AstraZeneca trial were over 65
> and they quote a figure of 341.  Around 4% were over 70.  The government has latterly come in for criticism for recommending cocooning for this age group at the beginning of the pandemic and creating the impression that it was a legal requirement.  Now they are hell bend,if they receive approval, on vaccinating us with the least effective vaccine available.
> We are not children, we are able to weight up the risks


How should that work? Should they rock up to you house with a menu?

None of the vaccines have been tested at high volumes on older people because vaccines aren't tested like that.
None of them have been tested on children either because vaccines aren't tested on children.


----------



## Purple

odyssey06 said:


> Seem to be growing reports that *EMA will only authorize AZ vaccine for over 65s*, and up to individual countries if they want to give emergency authorization for use on over 65s. This greatly complicates our vaccine rollout strategy as I think government had planned on distributing this to over 70s via GP network. Also, you may have at risk people understandably demanding Pfizer instead..


Should that be under 65's?


----------



## valery

No menu required.  Just a choice for an age group, that the Germans have ruled against receiving the vaccine,    between  making a booking with your Doctor/Chemist/Dentist or going to a mass vaccination site.


----------



## odyssey06

Purple said:


> How should that work? Should they rock up to you house with a menu?
> None of the vaccines have been tested at high volumes on older people because vaccines aren't tested like that.
> None of them have been tested on children either because vaccines aren't tested on children.



None of the vaccines have been tested- or authorised for children.
Some of the vaccines authorized for older people e.g. Pfizer had significantly more older people in their trials than AZ.

The UK authorized has authorized AZ for adults I think under emergency approval but it's probably too soon to gauge results.


----------



## Leo

valery said:


> According to the German Health Minister around 8% of participants in the AstraZeneca trial were over 65
> and they quote a figure of 341.
> ...
> Now they are hell bend,if they receive approval, on vaccinating us with the least effective vaccine available.
> We are not children, we are able to weight up the risks



It appears you also fell into the trap of misunderstanding the details of trial participation numbers with vaccine effectiveness numbers.


----------



## valery

AstraZeneca trials of two standard doses showed 62% efficacy. 
Moderna and Pfizer vaccines showed 94/95% efficacy.


----------



## Leo

valery said:


> AstraZeneca trials of two standard doses showed 62% efficacy.



But 90% if administered in half dose followed by full dose.


----------



## Purple

Leo said:


> But 90% if administered in half dose followed by full dose.


Can you post a link from a more reliable source please?


----------



## Leo

Purple said:


> Can you post a link from a more reliable source please?



Of course, here & here. I'm looking up Reddit now....


----------



## Purple

Leo said:


> Of course, here & here. I'm looking up Reddit now....


Good man, the Daily Mail!


----------



## valery

2 standard doses are being administered in the UK

half dose/full dose trial, all participants were under 55.

We are due to receive around 6 million doses of Pfizer,  I don’t know the amount from Moderna and then Johnson and Johnson.
All I am suggesting is that those of us in Group 3 are given the opportunity to make an informed choice.  The convenience of receiving a vaccine locally and possibly  quicker  as against delaying until one of the other vaccines are available.

anyway, I rest my argument until I read the EMA a decision tomorrow,


----------



## Leo

valery said:


> All I am suggesting is that those of us in Group 3 are given the opportunity to make an informed choice.



I doubt they will go through the administrative nightmare that would entail, maybe next time around.


----------



## joe sod

Awaiting the EMA announcement

"Hear ye Hear ye Hear ye"
"All hail the EMA"
"The EMA speaks now"
"Hear ye what he speaks"
"...............................................


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

joe sod said:


> Awaiting the EMA announcement
> 
> "Hear ye Hear ye Hear ye"
> "All hail the EMA"
> "The EMA speaks now"
> "Hear ye what he speaks"
> "...............................................


They didn't do that for all the other announcements .


----------



## Purple

Paul O Mahoney said:


> They didn't do that for all the other announcements .


Yea, there's a distinct lack of pomp and ceremony around the whole thing.


----------



## Purple

valery said:


> 2 standard doses are being administered in the UK
> 
> half dose/full dose trial, all participants were under 55.
> 
> We are due to receive around 6 million doses of Pfizer,  I don’t know the amount from Moderna and then Johnson and Johnson.
> All I am suggesting is that those of us in Group 3 are given the opportunity to make an informed choice.  The convenience of receiving a vaccine locally and possibly  quicker  as against delaying until one of the other vaccines are available.
> 
> anyway, I rest my argument until I read the EMA a decision tomorrow,


If the EMA say that more data is required before it is approved for over 65's then that's an informed decision. If they say it is then that's also an informed decision. With respect I think they know more about these things than you or me.

Your individual wishes also impact on the common good so no, you shouldn't be allowed to decide when  you get a vaccine and which vaccine you get.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Looks like Novavax have good data. 15000 took part in clinical trials with 27% over 55.
Results are 89.3% efficacy over all cohorts and this appears to carry over to older people.
The Chief Investigation Officer, just said on BBC news that they hope to go for authorisation in April after more testing is carried out, but he "remains confident " that that timeline will be met.

Edit: this vaccine appears to be effective against both UK and South African variants


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Purple said:


> If the EMA say that more data is required before it is approved for over 65's then that's an informed decision. If they say it is then that's also an informed decision. With respect I think they know more about these things than you or me.
> 
> Your individual wishes also impact on the common good so no, you shouldn't be allowed to decide when  you get a vaccine and which vaccine you get.


I think valery is in her 70s and if Astrazeneca is only to be used under 65s she'll get Pfizer or Moderna. 
If/when we get Astrazenecas vaccine it can be rolled out to under 65s and its not unreasonable for the Pfizer/Moderna to kept for over 65s until they are vaccinatinated.

Obviously supply again comes into play here, as does logistics and the HSE being able to differentiate correctly.


----------



## Purple

Paul O Mahoney said:


> I think valery is in her 70s and if Astrazeneca is only to be used under 65s she'll get Pfizer or Moderna.
> If/when we get Astrazenecas vaccine it can be rolled out to under 65s and its not unreasonable for the Pfizer/Moderna to kept for over 65s until they are vaccinatinated.
> 
> Obviously supply again comes into play here, as does logistics and the HSE being able to differentiate correctly.


Sure, that's what I was talking about above ref the EMA, but if the Astra Zeneca vaccine is approved for over 70's then it should be given to them. They should not have a choice of which approved vaccine they get.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Purple said:


> Sure, that's what I was talking about above ref the EMA, but if the Astra Zeneca vaccine is approved for over 70's then it should be given to them. They should not have a choice of which approved vaccine they get.


I agree with that , but lets be honest here Astrazeneca did not carry out any meaningful trials on older people.
Boris and his " scientific experts" are " confident " that it does protect older people but there is no scientific evidence.

"Confident " really isn't a scientific procedure.

I personally hope its fine and this will be proven over time that it does protect the elderly, and we can get on with getting the rollout done.

Some Prof just on BBC again was asked if he'd take it and said yes as he was " confident " as there were trials and studies going on in the UK to verify the effectiveness.


----------



## Leo

Paul O Mahoney said:


> "Confident " really isn't a scientific procedure.



Well, confidence can, and in these circles, should be informed by empirical data such as effectiveness     Just like effectiveness, confidence isn't binary.

But I think we're on the same page in that authorities should really focus on what gets us to a point where we can relax restrictions as soon as possible. To do that we need to use all vaccines available in the most effective manner. That may well be restricting the AZ or other vaccines to certain target audiences, but we can't just give everyone a choice, otherwise we end up prolonging the exercise by many months.


----------



## EmmDee

Paul O Mahoney said:


> "Confident " really isn't a scientific procedure.



Confidence is a scientific concept and can be quantified - though, a bit like "theory", confidence used in a non-scientific context tends to have a different meaning


----------



## odyssey06

Johnson Johnson promising trial results for single dose








						Johnson & Johnson Covid-19 vaccine is 66% effective in global trial, but 85% effective against severe disease, company says | CNN
					

Johnson & Johnson's Covid-19 single-shot vaccine was shown to be 66% effective in preventing moderate and severe disease in a global Phase 3 trial, but 85% effective against severe disease, the company announced Friday.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

EmmDee said:


> Confidence is a scientific concept and can be quantified - though, a bit like "theory", confidence used in a non-scientific context tends to have a different meaning


Didn't know that.


----------



## joe sod

Still waiting for the EMA,  it's obvious that they are now under immense political pressure given the row between AZ and Eu. They must be crafting their decision based on what the EU Is doing with AZ. This has very little to do with science but a hell of alot to do with politics.


----------



## Leo

joe sod said:


> Still waiting for the EMA,  it's obvious that they are now under immense political pressure given the row between AZ and Eu. They must be crafting their decision based on what the EU Is doing with AZ. This has very little to do with science but a he'll of alot to do with politics.



Again you seem to have an interesting notion of what is 'obvious'.  On what are you basing the assertion that the EMA will bend to political pressure?  Any evidence to show them doing so in the past? 

30 seconds on Google will show you today's meeting has a few hours to run yet, so your assertions seem to have very little to do with reality and a hell of a lot to do with conjecture.


----------



## Purple

There's no shortage of conjecture and hyperbole when it comes to Covid19 and, as we all know, hyperbole will be the death of us all.


----------



## joe sod

Yes, I take back what I said,  looks like the EMA have actually approved it for everyone over 18, a sensible decision I think. Hopefully the Eu can put the row with AZ to bed now and concentrate on assisting them in ramping up production quickly. Threatening legal action straight away without listening to the company and not reading the contract properly was the mistake. It is after all a brand new complicated vaccine not widgets.


----------



## odyssey06

Purple said:


> There's no shortage of conjecture and hyperbole when it comes to Covid19 and, as we all know, hyperbole will be the death of us all.



I thought it was minks...

Meanwhile EMA have arrived AZ for over 18s, contrary to conjecture & the Germans, they haven't limited it to under 65s.








						EU approves AstraZeneca vaccine for use
					

Europe's medicines regulator has recommended approving the AstraZeneca / Oxford University Covid-19 vaccine for people over the age of 18.




					www.rte.ie


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Its approved for everyone over 18 the under the EMA have said that despite insufficient data on effectiveness for older people it felt that it did offer some protection.


----------



## odyssey06

So big decision now for authorities here do they press on with AZ for over 70s or use the vaccines for which there is more certainty but are logistically challenging to roll out.


----------



## odyssey06

Note that the EMA approved spacing for the second dose to between 4-12 weeks, so that simplifies the rollout somewhat.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

joe sod said:


> Threatening legal action straight away without listening to the company and not reading the contract properly was the mistake.


In your rather tainted view. The redacted copy released by the EU clearly states that Astrazeneca are to supply from the UK if shortfalls the European plants couldn't fulfill orders.
Astrazeneca have a lot to explain here too, they must have said the plants would be ready to supply but they aren't, one excuse was low yield, and then tried to use the fact  that the EU were 3 months behind the UK in ordering.
Of course Astrazeneca didn't even apply until weeks after they got UK approval why?

I'm not defending anyone but normal negotiations would include the basic questions " can you supply it , how much of it, and when. Astrazeneca hasn't fulfilled some important pieces of the contract.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

odyssey06 said:


> So big decision now for authorities here do they press on with AZ for over 70s or use the vaccines for which there is more certainty but are logistically challenging to roll out.


I'd say they'll press on. It does give some protection and there are studies going on in the UK that one thing I read might give data by mid February.


----------



## joe sod

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Astrazeneca have a lot to explain here too, they must have said the plants would be ready to supply but they aren't, one excuse was low yield, and then tried to use the fact that the EU were 3 months behind the UK in ordering.
> Of course Astrazeneca didn't even apply until weeks after they got UK approval why?


Because the EMA made it known that they were not going to approve the vaccine in December as in the independent.ie article from December I posted, therefore they had to get the  data that they were looking for ready before they could apply, fairly sensible.
It was only because the EU then came under huge pressure in January due to the huge third wave , new variants, and the lack of progress in vaccinations in comparison to other countries that they buckled when AZ informed them that their initial yields would be much lower.
Now they still havn't learned and look like they are trying to block exports of vaccines to third countries outside EU besides UK like Japan, this is really stupid  and short sighted because we need lots of things from Japan, what if they retaliate, Trump would be rightly heavily criticised if he tried do something like this.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

joe sod said:


> Because the EMA made it known that they were not going to approve the vaccine in December as in the independent.ie article from December I posted, therefore they had to get the  data that they were looking for ready before they could apply, fairly sensible.
> It was only because the EU then came under huge pressure in January due to the huge third wave , new variants, and the lack of progress in vaccinations in comparison to other countries that they buckled when AZ informed them that their initial yields would be much lower.
> Now they still havn't learned and look like they are trying to block exports of vaccines to third countries outside EU besides UK like Japan, this is really stupid  and short sighted because we need lots of things from Japan, what if they retaliate, Trump would be rightly heavily criticised if he tried do something like this.


You do realise that the initial vaccines that Astrazeneca produced for the UK  were made in the same European plants that miraculously developed "yield issues " as soon as the UK plants became operational. 

Additionally its widely reported that like all other vaccine development there was constant communication and data sharing by Astrazeneca to the EU , it probably was used in deciding the ordering of 400m doses , which is 4 times the UK order.

They have ordered a lot of vaccines and are producing a lot of vaccines yet they are facing restrictions of supply, how is this happening?

The EU are many things good and bad, but they have reason to suspect something is amiss, so they put controls in place to try and understand what is going on, if they simply shrugged their shoulders it would be a worse situation.


----------



## joe sod

Paul O Mahoney said:


> You do realise that the initial vaccines that Astrazeneca produced for the UK were made in the same European plants that miraculously developed "yield issues " as soon as the UK plants became operational.


To use a favourite retort by another poster "have you a source for that" ?
in any case is it important Because the EMA hadn't approved it and they were throwing out doubts about whether it would be approved in December?
The logical follow on from "vaccine nationalism" which is what the EU have now resorted to is that the European factories must stock pile the vaccine and not export it to UK or Japan until or if the EMA approved it. They would be undermining the whole basis of multinational manufacturing which is the basis of the irish economy afterall.
The EU handled the whole thing incredibly stupidly by backing AZ into a corner by threatening legal action without finding out all the facts, there seems to be a load of bureacrats without technical knowledge at the centre of all this who were suddenly under alot of pressure


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

_"Yet here’s a fact that fits awkwardly into that narrative: according to Britain’s vaccine taskforce, its initial supply of AstraZeneca doses were made in the EU, in plants in [broken link removed] and the [broken link removed]."_

From the Irish Times a few days ago , it was approximately 500,000 plus doses.

Ill refer you to my earlier post on the reasons why the EU have taken the action it has as it appears you missed it.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

If the vaccines row wasn’t real, Boris Johnson would have to invent it
					

Europe Letter: The pandemic will not end without international co-operation




					www.irishtimes.com


----------



## odyssey06

Paul O Mahoney said:


> _"Yet here’s a fact that fits awkwardly into that narrative: according to Britain’s vaccine taskforce, its initial supply of AstraZeneca doses were made in the EU, in plants in [broken link removed] and the [broken link removed]."_
> 
> From the Irish Times a few days ago , it was approximately 500,000 plus doses.
> Ill refer you to my earlier post on the reasons why the EU have taken the action it has as it appears you missed it.



The EU are short a lot more than 500,000 doses. I would be curious what percentage of UK total to come from EU plants.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

odyssey06 said:


> The EU are short a lot more than 500,000 doses. I would be curious what percentage of UK total to come from EU plants.


Wouldn't we all, the point I'm trying to make is that those plants were operating then all of a sudden the yield goes down.
Astrazeneca have yet to explain that , but the UK plants must be pumping at 100% because the UK have huge supplies as evidenced by its now 8 million doses injected.
Another thing why would Astrazeneca sign up for the schedule if those European plants weren't capable?

Its only Pfizers vaccine they are getting from Europe no one else is producing and sending to the UK.

No matter what  this needs a resolution and the sooner the better lives depend on it.


----------



## geri

Purple said:


> MSD are one of the worlds biggest generics manufacturers so they have the capacity to onboard vaccine and other manufacturing processes developed elsewhere. They employ around 3000 people in their 6 sites here. Is anyone talking to them?
> Pfizer are already making their vaccine and using their Grange Castle facility for testing but why aren't they manufacturing there? That facility specialises in Protein Drug Discovery so they are as close to ready as any plant in the world. Pfizer also employ over 3000 people here.


Pfz GC only have 2 x  syringe filling lines, single dose so not really close to ready. Puurs in Belgium have a much bigger operation with multiple multidose vial filling lines already qualified and  in operation.


----------



## Eureka101

UK/ NI now vaccinating over 65’s. My parents in London being vaccinated later this afternoon. Such a relief.


----------



## EmmDee

Irrespective of the supply question... UK vaccinated (first dose) over 1% of total population yesterday... That's pretty impressive logistically


----------



## Sunny

EmmDee said:


> Irrespective of the supply question... UK vaccinated (first dose) over 1% of total population yesterday... That's pretty impressive logistically



It is very impressive but still get a nagging feeling that they have played fast and loose especially around the gaps in doses. Be interesting to see. Must be getting to numbers where we would expect to see huge drop in new hospital cases and deaths.


----------



## Purple

I'm waiting for whatever system the HSE puts in place to keep track of who has been vaccinated to collapse as the volumes of vaccines increases over the next few months.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Sunny said:


> It is very impressive but still get a nagging feeling that they have played fast and loose especially around the gaps in doses. Be interesting to see. Must be getting to numbers where we would expect to see huge drop in new hospital cases and deaths.


It was/is reported that 490k have received their second doses, which is a small % of the entire number. 
They are expecting to "see the effects in hospitals " in the middle of February. 
I too have my thoughts on the delays of the second dose, but time will tell.


----------



## Purple

When will NPHET start giving daily updates on the numbers of people who have been vaccinated?


----------



## Odea

Purple said:


> When will NPHET start giving daily updates on the numbers of people who have been vaccinated?


Yes. We constantly hear what "they *will* be doing" and not what they have been doing.


----------



## Sunny

Purple said:


> When will NPHET start giving daily updates on the numbers of people who have been vaccinated?



To be fair, by the time the vaccination teams post back the forms with who has been resulted, the post has been delivered, sorted by the mail room, delivered to the correct team, sorted by geographical location, results validated and then entered into the 'system', it can take a while. 

I love the way it looks like they only thought about IT requirements when it was time to do the vaccination. They did a good job developing the Covid App and I struggle to see how setting up what is basically a reporting database is more complicated than that.


----------



## Purple

Sunny said:


> To be fair, by the time the vaccination teams post back the forms with who has been resulted, the post has been delivered, sorted by the mail room, delivered to the correct team, sorted by geographical location, results validated and then entered into the 'system', it can take a while.
> 
> I love the way it looks like they only thought about IT requirements when it was time to do the vaccination. They did a good job developing the Covid App and I struggle to see how setting up what is basically a reporting database is more complicated than that.


When Hospitals in Dublin don't have compatible IT systems I don't think it's a surprise that collating national data in real time is a problem.


----------



## Eureka101

It could be psychologically beneficial to see a positive story of daily updates of vaccinations to balance alongside the negative daily update of new cases & tragic deaths.


----------



## Firefly

BBC News at 10 last night - 600,000 people vaccinated in the previous _24 hours_. Just under 8m people with their first vaccine....


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Pfizer-BioNTech to deliver 75m more doses during spring
					

BioNTech and Pfizer have said they will ramp up their coronavirus vaccine deliveries to the European Union, pledging to send up to 75 million extra doses to the bloc in the second quarter of this year.




					www.rte.ie
				



Good news.....


----------



## Leo

joe sod said:


> Because the EMA hadn't approved it and they were throwing out doubts about whether it would be approved in December?



You need to go back and review the timeline here. AZ supplied partial data in December, but only formally submitted the request for approval in January.


----------



## Purple

Blue Money Day said:


> "Speed trumps perfection. Perfection is the enemy of good when it comes to emergency responses." Dr. Mike Ryan.


Perfection? Nobody is talking about perfection. Something vaguely approaching competence would be nice.


----------



## tomdublin

Rather than releasing information that would actually be useful the government continues to invest in an ever more nauseating series of endlessly repeating "public service" radio ads.  A current favourite teaches the public that one Covid-safe way of talking to a friend involves using a phone.  Another ad asks listeners to hold their breath for six seconds in order to become calmer while yet another ad informs listeners that going for a walk helps them get fresh air.  The media never challenges the government over this nauseating orgy of patronising drivel, presumably because they are benefiting from these ads.


----------



## Merowig

tomdublin said:


> Rather than releasing information that would actually be useful the government continues to invest in an ever more nauseating series of endlessly repeating "public service" radio ads.  A current favourite teaches the public that one Covid-safe way of talking to a friend involves using a phone.  Another ad asks listeners to hold their breath for six seconds in order to become calmer while yet another ad informs listeners that going for a walk is a great way of getting fresh air.  The media never challenges the government over this nauseating orgy of patronising drivel, presumably because they are benefiting from these ads.


I see tax payers money put to good use 
The sad thing is there will be likely zero consequences for all the blunders...


----------



## Prosper

Firefly said:


> BBC News at 10 last night - 600,000 people vaccinated in the previous _24 hours_. Just under 8m people with their first vaccine....


A phenomenal UK performance when you consider that President Biden has set an ambitious target of 1,000,000 per day for the first 100 days of his administration. That's the the equivalent of just 200,000 per day in the UK, a rate three times less than the UK. Somethings not right.


----------



## Purple

We are averaging 40,000 a week so far. The restriction is on the supply side so the ow numbers aren't down to the HSE or any of the Front Line Heroes as of yet.


----------



## joe sod

Looks like von der Lyons and the commission under alot of pressure due to their mishandling of the vaccine rollout. This is a good thing because these people are not directly accountable to the electorates. However uniquely the vaccine crisis has put them squarely in the crosshairs and they don't like it one bit.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Prosper said:


> A phenomenal UK performance when you consider that President Biden has set an ambitious target of 1,000,000 per day for the first 100 days of his administration. That's the the equivalent of just 200,000 per day in the UK, a rate three times less than the UK. Somethings not right.


Biden also has the issue of 20m vaccines gone missing. The US is a mess, they used FedEx, UPS to distribute vaccines, and large pharmacys to administer it. One such pharmacy group is now implicated in providing $300,000 to fund the rally in DC for Trump that led to the riot.
Over 40% of care home workers in the US have refused to take the virus, with one loon destroying 19 boxes, saying the sky isn't real and the vaccine contains nano chips from Microsoft. 

The UK are many things but they are very good at logistics and its population very willing to do the right thing, and unlike other countries aren't holding back vaccines for second doses as they have Astrazeneca producing .


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

joe sod said:


> Looks like von der Lyons and the commission under alot of pressure due to their mishandling of the vaccine rollout. This is a good thing because these people are not directly accountable to the electorates. However uniquely the vaccine crisis has put them squarely in the crosshairs and they don't like it one bit.


They messed up invoking Article 16 however the whole debacle has gotten more vaccines from Astrazeneca and a commitment from Astrazeneca to get production up to what is required in the European plants.
Pfizer has also committed to and extra 75m doses.
And there was a meeting yesterday with Merkel and Macron etc to get to the bottom of the issues.


----------



## Merowig

As per yesterday Israel finished vaccinating everyone in care homes and assisted living facilities.
Article in German though - (Google translate should do reasonable good translation)








						Israel schließt Impfkampagne in Alters- und Pflegeheimen ab
					

Magen David Adom: "Dies ist ein bedeutender Schritt in Richtung eines Siegs über die Pandemie"




					www.juedische-allgemeine.de
				




Israel sees as well already a significant drop in new infections of the elderly https://twitter.com/segal_eran/status/1356313705684869121




			https://twitter.com/c_kensche/status/1353059203003244545
		

An Israeli/German 38 year Journalist got her first Covid Vaccination in Israel while her 91 year Grandmother was infected in Germany in Hospital with Covid and passed away


----------



## Prosper

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Biden also has the issue of 20m vaccines gone missing. The US is a mess, they used FedEx, UPS to distribute vaccines, and large pharmacys to administer it. One such pharmacy group is now implicated in providing $300,000 to fund the rally in DC for Trump that led to the riot.
> Over 40% of care home workers in the US have refused to take the virus, with one loon destroying 19 boxes, saying the sky isn't real and the vaccine contains nano chips from Microsoft.
> 
> The UK are many things but they are very good at logistics and its population very willing to do the right thing, and unlike other countries aren't holding back vaccines for second doses as they have Astrazeneca producing .



Yes it's really hard to believe that the USA is in such a state. The $300k donation you refer to was given by the daughter of the founder of the supermarket chain PUBLIX and they have said that she has no involvement in the business. Friends of mine have been vaccinated in PUBLIX pharmacy section and it's very well organised according to them. 
Given that most of the companies making vaccines are US companies you would think that they would have greater access to vaccines than the UK. The whole AstraZeneca controversy smells very fishy. It seems that the EU commission were not getting proper answers from AstraZeneca and so took the extraordinary step of publishing the contract and then when that didn't work they pressed the article 16 nuclear button. My guess is that the UK put huge pressure on AstraZeneca to allocate more of the output from the UK plants. It appears that the EU have brought AstraZeneca to heel but at a price.
Regarding your point about the UK population being very willing to do the right thing, I'm not so sure. On Channel 4 News they have reported on a lot of vaccine doubters and especially but not just in the BAME community. The better the UK do, the better for us so hopefully they keep up their excellent vaccination performance. I assume that once someone is vaccinated they are much less likely to be contagious?


----------



## joe sod

Merowig said:


> An Israeli/German 38 year Journalist got her first Covid Vaccination in Israel while her 91 year Grandmother was infected in Germany in Hospital with Covid and passed away


add to the fact that many of them were vaccinated with the Pfizer Biontech vaccine which is essentially the Biontech vaccine as they really developed the technology from scratch. Biontech is basically a german vaccine that has vaccinated alot of the israeli population yet hardly any of the german one, no wonder the german tabloids are all over this and infuriated with Brussels and the german government handling of this.


----------



## Bronco Lane

News Digest: A Tighter Curfew has Proven Effective on the Epidemic (frenchentree.com) 

1,486,493 of people have received their vaccinations in France.


----------



## Firefly

Impressive rollout..








						Forty Hours Later, A Shot at a Vaccine (Published 2021)
					

Broadbent Arena was known for its monster truck rallies and as the former home of Louisville’s ice hockey teams. Its large doors and ventilation made it the perfect venue for its new purpose: distributing as many coronavirus vaccines as possible, as quickly as possible.



					www.nytimes.com


----------



## Purple

Firefly said:


> Impressive rollout..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Forty Hours Later, A Shot at a Vaccine (Published 2021)
> 
> 
> Broadbent Arena was known for its monster truck rallies and as the former home of Louisville’s ice hockey teams. Its large doors and ventilation made it the perfect venue for its new purpose: distributing as many coronavirus vaccines as possible, as quickly as possible.
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com


They are administering up to 1500 doses a day per employee. 
Sure at that rate we should be able to vaccinate the country in a few weeks when we get the doses. 
At €30 a shot (€60 per full vaccination) the GP's wouldn't be out of pocket either!


----------



## odyssey06

NIAC have given their recommendations on vaccine rollout for Ireland.

Recommendation 1
Any currently authorised COVID-19 vaccine can be given to adults of all ages, including those aged
70 and older

Recommendation 2
Vaccination of those aged 70 and older should not be delayed. *Where practicable and timely, those aged 70 and older should be given an mRNA vaccine (i.e. Pfizer or Moderna)*

Dosing schedule

Recommendation 3
For those aged 65 and older, a 2-dose schedule of COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca® administered
at an interval of 4 - 6 weeks is recommended

Recommendation 4
For those less than 65 years of age, a 2-dose schedule of COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca®
administered at an interval of 4 - 12 weeks is recommended



			https://twitter.com/RCPI_news/status/1356982876840034304?s=19


----------



## joe sod

odyssey06 said:


> COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca®


just out of curiosity why did you put the registration mark after the AstraZeneca name but not after the Pfizer or Moderna name. Is that a copy and paste from the NIAC release. is that how you put it there?


----------



## odyssey06

joe sod said:


> just out of curiosity why did you put the registration mark after the AstraZeneca name but not after the Pfizer or Moderna name. Is that a copy and paste from the NIAC release. is that how you put it there?



How observant of you... I put the Pfizer and Moderna in my own brackets in case it wasn't clear which vaccines it referred to - the rest is a copy and paste from the Twitter link


----------



## EasilyAmused

Merowig said:


> As per yesterday Israel finished vaccinating everyone in care homes and assisted living facilities.



I’m surprised their national rate isn’t higher. Didnt they pay above the going rate to secure extra vaccine? And also agree to share their vaccine statistics with the manufacturer as part of the contract?


----------



## Bronco Lane

Listening to Paul Reid on the News at One today and I just want to scream.

It's all about what they are going to be doing.  Doctors not on board yet, Pharmacies not on board yet, talking up small deliveries of vaccines that are only a drop in the ocean to what we need.

It's the 4th February....why is the HSE still at the planning stage.


----------



## Timjoe

I agree with you Bronco Lane.  In just one day, last Saturday, 598,389 people were given their first coronavirus vaccination in the UK.  Here, and indeed in the EU in general, we are way behind.


----------



## Purple

Bronco Lane said:


> It's the 4th February....why is the HSE still at the planning stage.


I fully expect this to turn into the usual mess where the greedy doctors (sorry, front line heroes) get a fortune for doing very little but still complain about it but as of now the HSE have very few vaccines to give out so the delays aren't their fault.


----------



## EasilyAmused

The rollout is slow but I’m not surprised. 
Last week Stephen Donnelly said it’d be completed by September. This week Micheal Martin said it’d be December. It will be well into 2022 before everyone has been given a jab. 
Then, more questions to be addressed. How long is the jab effective? Six months, a year, forever? Nobody has answered this question yet, it’s too early to say. What if it’s six months though? That would mean those that received the jab in January will need another one in July. Which will delay the rollout even further.

We’ve about 450 million people to vaccinate. National interests within the EU will mean pushing and shoving.

Knowledge about the vaccines themselves is being gained, but that means the plan is changing and evolving, e.g. not giving the AstraZeneca vaccine to over 70ies.

Too much emphasis was put on “finding a vaccine” last year by the media. It left us thinking that a vaccine was a silver bullet. However, it isn’t, not in the short term anyway. 
It’s just another arrow in the quiver, along with hand sanitizer, face masks and social distancing.

And just as the virus has evolved in response to those three measures (B117, N501Y), it’ll evolve in response to vaccines.

There‘a a long slow road ahead. At the moment we’re crawling through Monasterevin on a Friday evening at 6pm, circa 2003. 
It’ll be a few years yet before our M7/M9 is completed.


----------



## john luc

Bronco Lane said:


> Listening to Paul Reid on the News at One today and I just want to scream.
> 
> It's all about what they are going to be doing.  Doctors not on board yet, Pharmacies not on board yet, talking up small deliveries of vaccines that are only a drop in the ocean to what we need.
> 
> It's the 4th February....why is the HSE still at the planning stage.


And again the lazy journalists fail to ask the proper question.


----------



## Leo

EasilyAmused said:


> That would mean those that received the jab in January will need another one in July. Which will delay the rollout even further.



Too early to say, but the early commentary looks positive. Note that effectiveness levels will fade rather than fall off a cliff, so it's still likely a best use of resources to complete a first roll-out rather than start round 2. Production volumes will continue to scale up as well.


----------



## Prosper

Apologies if they've already been answered in this thread but I have two questions.

Why has a decision been taken to only give the AZ vaccine to the under 70's when the EMA approved it for everyone?
On the News tonight I saw a youngish Garda receiving the vaccine. Are Gardaí being vaccinated before elderly and other more vulnerable people?


----------



## odyssey06

Prosper said:


> Apologies if they've already been answered in this thread but I have two questions.
> 
> Why has a decision been taken to only give the AZ vaccine to the under 70's when the EMA approved it for everyone?
> On the News tonight I saw a youngish Garda receiving the vaccine. Are Gardaí being vaccinated before elderly and other more vulnerable people?



The data from AZ for over 70s isnt as deep as that of Pfizer or Moderna. MRna vaccines are expected to have be less vulnerable to mutation.
AZ is still on the table for over 70s eg if supply dries up of other vaccines.

Gardai are way down the priority list,  shouldnt be getting it. Especially as we are trying to keep pfizer for over 70s. Maybe there were spare doses although at this stage that should be expected and allocated to groups 1-4 only.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

It should be said that all the questions we have regarding the vaccines are in general unanswerable to a level that would remove people's doubts. 
These are vaccines that were/are being developed in record time and the data is essentially being generated in the real world and obviously collating all this takes time and understanding. 
Overall I personally think it will work out but not in any time frame the scientific/political groups have set out as there are too many unknowns, add in the logistical challenges progress will not be what people feel it should be. (Thats not taking away from the UK and Israel in their rollouts)

Then there are the mutations(known)that apparently are causing some headaches to the producers in trying to work out if existing vaccines remain effective or will new vaccines have be made or will 2 jabs be enough?

I can't see us back to anything approaching normal this year, unless something radically changes for example the vaccines are proven to prevent transmission and they are robust enough to provide protection for variants and mutations.


----------



## Purple

We will never get everyone vaccinated and it should be remembered that the target it not to get everyone vaccinated.
The target is to get enough people vaccinated to keep the R number well under one when restrictions are lifted and society and the economy are opened up.


----------



## EasilyAmused

Purple said:


> We will never get everyone vaccinated and it should be remembered that the target it not to get everyone vaccinated.



Ah yeah, shure we know that. “Everyone vaccinated” is ~80% of the population. Just like “full employment” is 4% unemployment.


----------



## Purple

EasilyAmused said:


> Ah yeah, shure we know that. “Everyone vaccinated” is ~80% of the population. Just like “full employment” is 4% unemployment.


Exactly, and remember the aim is to enable the full lifting of restrictions while keeping the R number under one.


----------



## EasilyAmused

When all the elderly and all the vulnerable are vaccinated I expect the business community and a large cohort of the public (and the elderly and the vulnerable?) will call for the lifting of restrictions regardless of the case numbers. And if there is an ongoing daily death count of zero they’ll have a very strong case.


----------



## Merowig

EasilyAmused said:


> I’m surprised their national rate isn’t higher. Didnt they pay above the going rate to secure extra vaccine? And also agree to share their vaccine statistics with the manufacturer as part of the contract?


Over 22 % of the population was completely vaccinated (all necessary jabs administered). That is the highest percentage worldwide.
Ireland 1.36%.
The percentage who received at least one injection in Israel is higher and most likely they will finish the whole vaccination campaign by end of March


----------



## joe sod

EasilyAmused said:


> When all the elderly and all the vulnerable are vaccinated I expect the business community and a large cohort of the public (and the elderly and the vulnerable?) will call for the lifting of restrictions regardless of the case numbers. And if there is an ongoing daily death count of zero they’ll have a very strong case.


Also the financial markets only have a certain amount of patience, when that is achieved or achieved by the leading countries in the vaccine rollout then everyone else could be faced with higher interest rate penalties when going looking to sell more bonds to keep paying for everything. Suspended animation of the economy can only last so long


----------



## tomdublin

joe sod said:


> Also the financial markets only have a certain amount of patience, when that is achieved or achieved by the leading countries in the vaccine rollout then everyone else could be faced with higher interest rate penalties when going looking to sell more bonds to keep paying for everything. Suspended animation of the economy can only last so long


Governments keep piling up debt to prop up their Covid-paralysed economies while the ECB keeps printing money to help finance it.  Some of this money goes to necessary and worthy causes such as  support for unemployed hospitality workers.  Some of it is spent on classic "socialism for the rich" causes such as bailing out privately owned airlines. In the end, all this money printing and spending will lead to inflation, unless the basic principles of economics have permanently vanished somehow.


----------



## Sunny

tomdublin said:


> Governments keep piling up astronomical debt to pour money into their Covid-paralysed economies while the ECB keeps printing money to finance it.  Some of this money goes to necessary and worthy causes such as  support for unemployed workers in the hospitality industry.  Some of it is spent on classic "socialism for the rich" causes that are unjust and make no sense, such as bailing out privately owned airlines.  In the end, all of this has to lead to inflation, unless the basic principles of economics are all permanently suspended somehow.



When privately owned airlines or any other busineses are prevented from operating by Government policy decisions then there is no argument to be made against State support. Airlines are no differen


----------



## tomdublin

Gov decisions curbing travel were due to a pandemic which is an unintended act of nature just like bad weather or an ash cloud and an intrinsic business risk if you own an airline. Why should a tax payer on the average industrial wage pay to protect businesses against such risks?


----------



## Sunny

tomdublin said:


> Gov decisions curbing travel were due to a pandemic which is an unintended act of nature just like bad weather or an ash cloud and an intrinsic business risk if you own an airline. Why should a tax payer on the average industrial wage pay to protect businesses against such risks?



Why should a tax payer on the average industrial wage pay to protect any business? But if any business is prevented from operating in the name of public health, I have no issue with my tax being used to support them to make sure they are still there and employing people when this is over. Just like my tax money is spent supporting retail, hospitality, tourism businesses all over the country. And yet you seem to have an issue with airlines? Why? Because they are big? 

Ireland is a Island. Air links are absolutely crucial to economic performance. The idea that IAG can move aircraft from Aer Lingus Irish Market to other markets as they are already doing  or other parts of the group and we should just go 'who cares' is economic idiocy. The idea that Ryanair if they pull aircraft out of Ireland will ever return without significant incentives is delusional. There is a reason why Germany, France, Netherlands, Norway, Italy and numerous other countries have poured billions into airline support since this pandemic started. Same with the US. They know that there is no economic recovery without airlines. Next the argument will be that other airlines will fill the slots if an airline like Aer Lingus go under. No they won't. Global aviation is on its knees. If we don't protect what we have in Ireland, then we can forget about it. 

Aer Lingus employees are currently on 60% pay. Many of them earning less than what people are getting on PUP. Do these people not deserve the same chance as hotel or shop employees whose employers are getting support to see their jobs survive this pandemic . No airline in Ireland has asked for support yet. Ryanair took support off the UK government. If Aer Lingus come looking for support, I have no issue with it being given to them considering the support already given to European airlines.


----------



## tomdublin

Sunny said:


> The idea that Ryanair if they pull aircraft out of Ireland will ever return without significant incentives is delusional


Why? If there is demand for air travel someone will supply it and will employ the people needed to supply it.  Lots of airlines have gone bust over the past two decades and there has never been a supply shortage as a result (quite the opposite).   Government support should concentrate on workers thrown out of work by the pandemic, not on businesses and their (generally) wealthy owners.


----------



## Sunny

tomdublin said:


> Why? If there is demand for air travel someone will supply it and will employ the people needed to supply it.  Lots of airlines have gone bust over the past two decades and there has never been a supply shortage as a result (quite the opposite).   Government support should concentrate on workers thrown out of work by the pandemic, not on businesses and their (generally) wealthy owners.



So airline workers should suffer?? Why are they different to other workers. Because you think airlines are greedy? There has never been an event like this for aviation. Every single airline in every single country is suffering. And you think they will be a position to serve Ireland?  Even 9/11 which decimated air travel is nothing compared this. If Governments stop shops/hotels or any other business from operating because of public health, they deserve support to help them survive and give them at least a chance to be there when this is over. The size of the business is not relevant. This pandemic could drive an airline with a couple of billion of free cash out of business just as easily as it could a hotel if it goes on long enough. 

You seem to be arguing that we should be spending all ourmoney on unemployment benefits for workers instead of trying to make sure businesses that employ them actually survive. Because employers are greedy or wealthy??? 

Anyway, completely off topic.


----------



## tomdublin

No, it should in principle apply to all businesses, subject to pragmatic exceptions  where it's genuinely in the public interest to keep a given business afloat.  Anything beyond that is just a redistribution of wealth from average citizens to wealthy vested interests no matter how it's being dessed up.


----------



## Eureka101

It’s my understanding that vaccination centres have been set up in Dublin, Cork, Galway and Limerick but I can’t find any confirmation of this.
Are these centres actually set up and if so where can we find location details?


----------



## Bronco Lane

Eureka101 said:


> It’s my understanding that vaccination centres have been set up in Dublin, Cork, Galway and Limerick but I can’t find any confirmation of this.
> Are these centres actually set up and if so where can we find location details?


Like everything else I think they are talking about "what they are going to be doing"...


----------



## Leo

tomdublin said:


> Why should a tax payer on the average industrial wage pay to protect businesses against such risks?



If you extend that argument out, why should someone earning €200kpa pay so much tax to subsidise those on the average industrial wage?


----------



## tomdublin

Leo said:


> If you extend that argument out, why should someone earning €200kpa pay so much tax to subsidise those on the average industrial wage?


Because where there is economic redistribution it should happen from the rich(er) to the poor(er), not the other way around.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

I thought this thread was meant to be about the delays in rolling out the vaccine not about failed economic theory.


----------



## Susie2017

Vaccination roll out is a shambles IMO. Now the AZ vaccine of which a supply of 21000 doses having arrived to much fanfare by the minister is probably of no use against the SA variant. It must be tweaked and Autumn is said to be the expected date of arrival. We have children being deprived of their education despite them not being responsible for the surge over xmas. Most days I checked the stats there were zero covid positive children in paediatric hospitals. Therefore children dont get ill with covid. Best to admit closing schools was a bad decision totally OTT. So much elective healthcare has postponed indefinitely when it should have gone ahead plus many people delaying attending hospitals because of fear. Vaccination is not the way out of this. The virus mutated too rapidly and by autumn you can bet there will be other variants out there. A good treatment repurposed or new is what's required IMO. The swedish approach to developing some level of herd immunity might not be such a bad approach after all. We cant live like this economically or socially much longer. A zero covid approach is utter fantasy in my view. We cannot hermetically seal our borders. Wouldn't work.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Susie2017 said:


> Vaccination roll out is a shambles IMO. Now the AZ vaccine of which a supply of 21000 doses having arrived to much fanfare by the minister is probably of no use against the SA variant. It must be tweaked and Autumn is said to be the expected date of arrival. We have children being deprived of their education despite them not being responsible for the surge over xmas. Most days I checked the stats there were zero covid positive children in paediatric hospitals. Therefore children dont get ill with covid. Best to admit closing schools was a bad decision totally OTT. So much elective healthcare has postponed indefinitely when it should have gone ahead plus many people delaying attending hospitals because of fear. Vaccination is not the way out of this. The virus mutated too rapidly and by autumn you can bet there will be other variants out there. A good treatment repurposed or new is what's required IMO. The swedish approach to developing some level of herd immunity might not be such a bad approach after all. We cant live like this economically or socially much longer. A zero covid approach is utter fantasy in my view. We cannot hermetically seal our borders. Wouldn't work.


Well the Astrazeneca vaccine isn't " useless " it does give protection to people getting " seriously ill" it's efficiency versus low and medium symptoms of the SA variant is lower, but the study of 2000 people isn't peer reviewed yet, and Astrazeneca are adamant it does give protection.
All vaccine makers are working on new vaccines to cover present and future variants and mutations.
It's highly likely that we will need boosters and get vaccinated annually, an article in Bloomberg over the weekend said it might be 7 years before we have sufficient vaccines and treatment to control the virus's again it was a view of some immunologist in the US.
Children don't get sick like adults but they do get it and spread it, and a 3 year old has died from it after 3 days of being diagnosed, no reasons/ details were given on her overall health.
Schools did do very well but the UK variant is very transmissionable and this is a concern.

I know of a very young mother who was fighting cancer and attending treatment in one Dublin hospital (only place she went) she got covid and sadly died last Tuesday leaving 2 boys behind and a heartbroken husband.So people are right to be weary and most healthcare workers are engaged in Covid work.

Sweden hasn't developed "herd immunity " and are now doing what the rest of the world are doing.

This is very difficult for all of us but we need to be very careful on what we wish for and yes the vaccine rollout is slow but the biggest obstacle now is supply and delivery due to a host of reasons.


----------



## Purple

Susie2017 said:


> The virus mutated too rapidly and by autumn you can bet there will be other variants out there.


All viruses mutate. The more people who are vaccinated the less it will spread and so the less it will mutate.
The technology to develop the first mRNA vaccine was the big leap. Changing vaccines to deal with variants is a much smaller and faster step.
It is not mutating to any major degree and it's not mutating particularly quickly. 



Susie2017 said:


> A good treatment repurposed or new is what's required IMO.


 That's like saying "something else that works better is a better solution".


----------



## Cricketer

Susie2017 said:


> children dont get ill with covid


*However*, up to date mass testing in Irish childcare facilities has revealed a 12.5% positivity rate. These children play with each other and go home to parents and grandparents. There's the problem.


----------



## Purple

Cricketer said:


> *However*, up to date mass testing in Irish childcare facilities has revealed a 12.5% positivity rate. These children play with each other and go home to parents and grandparents. There's the problem.


Can you post a ink to that please?


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Purple said:


> All viruses mutate. The more people who are vaccinated the less it will spread and so the less it will mutate.
> The technology to develop the first mRNA vaccine was the big leap. Changing vaccines to deal with variants is a much smaller and faster step.
> It is not mutating to any major degree and it's not mutating particularly quickly.


But just remember creating a new vaccine and producing/delivering will have a considerable time difference.

An English Professor Sarah Gilbert Oxford, was on Andrew Marr yesterday and she did say that all these variables/variants are being investigated but it's going to take time to fully understand what they mean for vaccination programs .


----------



## EmmDee

Susie2017 said:


> The swedish approach to developing some level of herd immunity might not be such a bad approach after all. We cant live like this economically or socially much longer. A zero covid approach is utter fantasy in my view. We cannot hermetically seal our borders. Wouldn't work.



Deaths per 100k in Ireland : 74.4
Deaths per 100k in Sweden : 117.8

School closures aren't to protect the kids - it's to prevent onward transmission


----------



## Susie2017

There are many reports on pubmed of individual patients harbouring several mutants of the virus. How can anyone 'plan' for these future mutants before they occur ? annual vaccination is unlikely to give the protection that is required. Elderly people don't respond to vaccines in the way younger individuals do. What is the immune response rate to the flu vaccine in the over 75s ?  Is it 50 % ? Yes children play and should be allowed to do so with friends including schoolpals. They need viral infections to develop their immune systems. Locking up kids like what is being done now will harm the development of their immune systems, not to mention the psychological damage that is being done. Their immune systems fight covid. I know of many cases of kids covid + running around business as usual. You can lock up every kid in Ireland because of one child death. Kids die from other illnesses meningitis, accidents etc on a much more frequent basis but they are not locked down because of it. Watch out for increased incidence of anaphylaxis, allergies, Crohns and worse (acute leukemia) in kids in future because their immune systems need 8 or so viruses a year to develop correctly. Scientifically proven. Ask any paediatrician. Using hand sanitiser in schools should be BANNED with immediate effect. Cocoon the elderly and vulnerable and let the rest of society get on with it. Effective treatments are likely to be the only way out of this. Emdee check the number of elderly in Sweden, before you compare with our figures please, in the interests of transparency. And before you look at fatality rates look at number of comorbidities and whether the individual died with or 'from' Covid - because that's hard to decipher, and no journalist is bothering to ask. All thy are interested in is headline number. Also ask how many elderly in NHs are transferred for acute care in hospitals ? Are they offered oxygen, anticoags, dex etc If not then this is likely to be reflected in a higher mortality, common sense would dictate.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Susie2017 said:


> Effective treatments are the only way out of this.


Yes they are called vaccines.


----------



## Susie2017

You think vaccines are the perfect 'treatment'. You see no issues with them?  I have heard of colleagues collapse after the second dose of one type wont name it here but you know the one I mean. Necessitating time off work in several individuals I know. Do you think the elderly will be immune from these reactions ? You didnt answer if you think the elderly will amount an effective immune response ? What about duration of immunity ? If it takes AZ til Sept to roll out their new version then when can we expect to receive it ? By Chistmas ? Some time in 2022 ?  Are we to stay in lockdown til then ? What if there is another new variant in May for instance ? I still say get our kids back to school now. Await treatments. Inhaled interferon for one example. Vaccines are too slow. All IMO of course....


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Susie2017 said:


> You think vaccines are the perfect 'treatment'. You see no issues with them?  I have heard of colleagues collapse after the second dose of one type wont name it here but you know the one I mean. Necessitating time off work in several individuals I know. Do you think the elderly will be immune from these reactions ? You didnt answer if you think the elderly will amount an effective immune response ? What about duration of immunity ? If it takes AZ til Sept to roll out their new version then when can we expect to receive it ? By Chistmas ? Some time in 2022 ?  Are we to stay in lockdown til then ? What if there is another new variant in May for instance ? I still say get our kids back to school now. Await treatments. Inhaled interferon for one example. Vaccines are too slow. All IMO of course....


Yes vaccines are the answer.


----------



## Cricketer

Purple said:


> Can you post a ink to that please?


@Purple, it was in yesterday's Irish Times.


----------



## tomdublin

Susie2017 said:


> didnt answer if you think the elderly will amount an effective immune response ?


It's not important what you or I or any other lay person think about whether vaccines are effective, dangerous or whatever. These vaccines are developed, tested, evaluated and regulated by thousands of very brainy, very experienced and very well funded scientists who also tend to be very cautious.  If they say that the risk associated with being vaccinated is infinitely smaller than the risk associated with contracting Covid and infecting others, who are we to disagree with them?  It's OK to be critical and sceptical about lots of things but here it's important to listen to those whose judgement is based on scientific evidence.


----------



## joe sod

Northern Ireland have vaccinated 600000 as of now and we have only done 230,000. Those are pretty stark statistics and really illustrates the shambles of our own and Eu vaccination program. I think we should swallow our pride and get some of the UK excess, they are more than willing to provide anyways as we share the common travel area and the main reason for the upsurge here was exposure to the UK and UK variant. Heads need to roll at eu level for this shambles, they have been too cozy and protected from the electorates for too long, their is a democratic deficit at the heart of the eu. We still don't know the people who made the actual decisions and why.


----------



## SlurrySlump

Many of us are itching at the bit to get back travelling overseas again.

Is there information online telling us about how other countries are doing with their vaccination rollout?

It is all very well to say that we have isolated the South African strain here in Ireland but that is not much use when travel opens up again and other countries have not isolated the S.A. variant.

Then you think about the AstraZeneca vaccine and the reports that it may not be great against the S.A. variant. I just get the feeling that this vaccine will be the vaccine of choice for our government and offered/given to all people under age 70 years.  What happens if someone gets vaccinated with the AstraZeneca vaccine then travels to a country where it the S.A variant is not under control?


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

joe sod said:


> Northern Ireland have vaccinated 600000 as of now and we have only done 230,000. Those are pretty stark statistics and really illustrates the shambles of our own and Eu vaccination program. I think we should swallow our pride and get some of the UK excess, they are more than willing to provide anyways as we share the common travel area and the main reason for the upsurge here was exposure to the UK and UK variant. Heads need to roll at eu level for this shambles, they have been too cozy and protected from the electorates for too long, their is a democratic deficit at the heart of the eu. We still don't know the people who made the actual decisions and why.











						Covid-19: Vaccines saving lives in NI, McBride says
					

The chief medical officer says the public should have a high confidence in Covid-19 vaccines.



					www.bbc.com
				




600,000? You might want to read the above link.
Additionally Northern Ireland was 4 weeks ahead of us,also look at the second dose figures for both.


----------



## Prosper

joe sod said:


> Northern Ireland have vaccinated 600000 as of now and we have only done 230,000. Those are pretty stark statistics


I agree - if you were correct. Where do you get your "facts"?


----------



## joe sod

Paul O Mahoney said:


> 600,000? You might want to read the above link.


Yes you are correct I made a mistake there its actually around 300K now . Thats what they said on newstalk business this morning Im certain. It doesn't take away from the thrust of what I said in the rest of the post. The UK has 20% of their population now vaccinated and did 350K today alone, they are racing ahead to vaccinate as many as possible with the first dose while holding back the second dose for alot longer which is a very pragmatic decision.
We need answers from Brussels on why they messed up and why they insisted on haggling over the price they would pay the pharma companies . Afterall the price difference was only be in the millions , small change to an organisation that throws around billions. The cost to the EU is more months of lockdowns costing many billions along with many more deaths and livelihoods destroyed. There needs to more answers who messed up and what bureacracy ?


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

joe sod said:


> Yes you are correct I made a mistake there its actually around 300K now . Thats what they said on newstalk business this morning Im certain. It doesn't take away from the thrust of what I said in the rest of the post. The UK has 20% of their population now vaccinated and did 350K today alone, they are racing ahead to vaccinate as many as possible with the first dose while holding back the second dose for alot longer which is a very pragmatic decision.
> We need answers from Brussels on why they messed up and why they insisted on haggling over the price they would pay the pharma companies . Afterall the price difference was only be in the millions , small change to an organisation that throws around billions. The cost to the EU is more months of lockdowns costing many billions along with many more deaths and livelihoods destroyed. There needs to more answers who messed up and what bureacracy ?


Who said they haggled over price? If you remember we were only told there was a viable vaccine 3 months ago, now there are 3 and eventough there are 3 there is a supply shortage that nobody can control even the EU.
Citing the UK is irrelevant as they have AZ practically for itself eventough the EU have ordered 4 times the amount than the UK and paid 50% of the cost in August/ September which was €320m or thereabouts.
Well if your interested von der Leyen is being questioned tomorrow perhaps you should tune in.

You might think that single doses is the way to go in order to justify your narrative but the Jury is very much out on this , both manufacturers and the BMA aren't exactly thrilled with the single dose regime but like everything thing else time will tell.

The UK hasn't even reached 10% of second doses of its first dose rollout while we are over 50% of first doses which is a safer way of doing this, and we are using practically every dose we get.

The facts are out there if you want to read them


----------



## Leo

joe sod said:


> they are racing ahead to vaccinate as many as possible with the first dose while holding back the second dose for alot longer which is a very pragmatic decision.



If it's pragmatic, why is it against recommended practice? Administering single doses rather than the recommended two is likely to prolong the path towards herd immunity, and potentially make it unobtainable. There are very good reasons for the recommended spacing of doses. 



joe sod said:


> We need answers from Brussels on why they messed up and why they insisted on haggling over the price they would pay the pharma companies . Afterall the price difference was only be in the millions , small change to an organisation that throws around billions. The cost to the EU is more months of lockdowns costing many billions along with many more deaths and livelihoods destroyed. There needs to more answers who messed up and what bureacracy ?



The EU invested hundreds of millions into a number of pharma companies to fund accelerated testing and ramping up of production lines. Do you think throwing another few hundred million would have gotten us vaccines much quicker?

I'd argue they should have spent more time negotiating, particularly with AZ who deliberately delayed even submitting their vaccine for EU approval until after it was approved and being distributed in the UK.


----------



## Prosper

joe sod said:


> It doesn't take away from the thrust of what I said in the rest of the post.


Posting a false figure (wrong by a factor of 98%) in order to make RoI's vaccination performance appear really bad, doesn't take away from the thrust of what you said? Are you kidding?


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Just to confuse the masses and our HSE,the WHO have now said that Astrazenecas vaccine should be/ can be used for "all" adults including those over 70 and for all variants.


----------



## Prosper

I think our CMO is being ultra cautious so maybe the WHO position will enable him to change his mind.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Prosper said:


> I think our CMO is being ultra cautious so maybe the WHO position will enable him to change his mind.


I dunno Purple it's difficult to get ones head around this. The EMA said more or less the same as the WHO , individual countries like Germany and France said they wouldn't be giving it to over 65 and others followed. 

I was expecting issues with all aspects of the rollout but didn't expect this contradictory messaging, a vaccine either works or it doesn't.

I asked herself and she said that she'd go with what the WHO said.


----------



## Prosper

I'd go with herself as well. If I'm offered the AZ vaccine I won't be saying no thanks. I can understand politicians and CMO's covering themselves in case of a worst case scenario. The fact that the WHO are giving it the thumbs up for variants as well is the clincher for me.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Prosper said:


> I'd go with herself as well. If I'm offered the AZ vaccine I won't be saying no thanks. I can understand politicians and CMO's covering themselves in case of a worst case scenario. The fact that the WHO are giving it the thumbs up for variants as well is the clincher for me.


I'll also take whatever is offered but she went on to say that the coordination like the development of the vaccines needs a global effort for their rollout in order to speed it up.


----------



## joe sod

I think the national immunology body tasked with assessing the AZ vaccine also gave it the thumbs up to be used for all age groups with the caveat that they awaiting more data from AZ. Tony holohan then reinterpreted their recommendation to exclude the over 70s for now. Why does this one man have so much say over everything,  he is not a god,  it is very unhealthy that he is being treated like one.


----------



## Purple

joe sod said:


> I think the national immunology body tasked with assessing the AZ vaccine also gave it the thumbs up to be used for all age groups with the caveat that they awaiting more data from AZ. Tony holohan then reinterpreted their recommendation to exclude the over 70s for now. Why does this one man have so much say over everything,  he is not a god,  it is very unhealthy that he is being treated like one.


He's had a great recovery since the Cervical Smear Test fiasco. I think he was unfairly blamed for that just as he's been overly lionised here. Don't get me wrong, he's a great public servant doing a great job but doing your job well shouldn't confer you with god like authority.


----------



## Prosper

I feel a bit guilty about criticising Joe Sod for quoting a very inaccurate statistic re vaccinations that he heard on the radio, so sorry for that Joe. It's just that I get really frustrated with some of the stuff you hear on the radio. There appears to be a real tendency to to portray things in this country in the worst possible light. For example, on Wednesday Liveline opened with a headline saying that the UK had vaccinated 87 times more people than Ireland. In terms of first doses given the headline comment was accurate but why not express it in a way that reflected relative population sizes like they did later in the programme when comparing deaths from Covid (they said that the UK had 2 times our death rate but if they were to be consistent with their earlier headline comment then they should have said that the UK had 30 times more deaths than Ireland). It's so demoralising.


Purple said:


> He's had a great recovery since the Cervical Smear Test fiasco. I think he was unfairly blamed for that


The Cervical Smear controversy really demonstrated the bias of a lot of journalists and their tendency to portray things in the worst possible light. The amount of disinformation in the reporting of this issue was extraordinary. The fact that the CMO survived it is probably down to the fact that he is a  top civil servant. Top civil servants are very skilled at deflecting criticism and covering themselves when things go wrong.


----------



## Susie2017

Anyone know if Tony Holohan has been asked about Ivermectin in any of the press conferences ?


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Well, river blindness isn't an issue in Ireland and if you are referring to a study in Australia last year it was literally called false and put into the category of drinking bleach.


----------



## Susie2017

There are many studies on pubmed documenting its efficacy. Dr Pierre Kory and a group of other US physicians prescribe it for their patients. He is an intensivist and pulmonary physician. He has tried to get the Senate on board but is not being listened to. Wonder why ? Also worth reviewing is Tony Holohans comments on the safety of pandemrix and the subsequent events. McConkeys comments on how many would die with swine flu are worth reviewing also.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

No evidence ivermectin is a miracle drug against COVID-19
					

CLAIM: The antiparasitic drug ivermectin “has a miraculous effectiveness that obliterates” the transmission of COVID-19 and will prevent people from getting sick.  AP’S ASSESSMENT: False. There’s no evidence ivermectin has been proven a safe or effective treatment against COVID-19.  THE FACTS...




					apnews.com
				




Here's why. Can you not find somewhere else to post this rubbish I'm sure there are plenty of places you'll find like minded people? to further your clearly uninformed views.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

FAQ: COVID-19 and Ivermectin Intended for Animals
					

Q: Should I take ivermectin to prevent or treat COVID-19? A: No. Ivermectin is not approved for the prevention or treatment of COVID-19.




					www.fda.gov


----------



## joe sod

Prosper said:


> The Cervical Smear controversy really demonstrated the bias of a lot of journalists and their tendency to portray things in the worst possible light. The amount of disinformation in the reporting of this issue was extraordinary. The fact that the CMO survived it is probably down to the fact that he is a top civil servant. Top civil servants are very skilled at deflecting criticism and covering themselves when things go wrong.


don't agree with much of Tony Holohan's decisions even though he was proven correct after Christmas with the huge upsurge. I think one of the reasons for that is that we kept hospitality very restricted for much of the Summer when we could have opened more because of serving outdoors. Then we locked down again in the months before Christmas, by the time Christmas came around there was a huge pent up demand to socialise like never before.
Tony Holohan is a tough cookie he is well able to take the arrows , like King Kong pulling them back out and not suffering at all, fairly unique in irish public life, probably need a Charlie Haughey or Ray McSharry to overpower him, modern politicians are not so tough now


----------



## Sunny

Susie2017 said:


> I'll leave you all to your RTE and youtube comfort zones.



That would be great. Thanks.


----------



## EasilyAmused

Susie2017 said:


> It's odd that very few citizens are unwilling to question ...the idea that the vaccine is the only solution above all else.



Prior to there being a vaccine it was regarded as a silver bullet. 
But now that vaccines are being rolled out we are being reminded that this is just another layer of defence against Covid.

In the last week Sam McConkey has warmed us that we may be facing at least a further three years of pandemic. Anthony Staines said we may be wearing face masks (more-or-less) forever.


----------



## Purple

EasilyAmused said:


> Anthony Staines said we may be wearing face masks (more-or-less) forever.


And I might win the lottery. Both are unlikely. 
50 years ago we figured out how to put men on the Moon. We'll figure this out as well. I think we've been exposed to too many dystopian movies. Science and progress make the world a better place most of the time. We'll get over this.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Purple said:


> And I might win the lottery. Both are unlikely.
> 50 years ago we figured out how to put men on the Moon. We'll figure this out as well. I think we've been exposed to too many dystopian movies. Science and progress make the world a better place most of the time. We'll get over this.


I agree but mask wearing might be one good legacy, it's ubiquitous in Asia after 2002. I wouldn't be advocating mandatory mask wearing but if it reduced the annual flu or other annual respiratory illnesses it would do a lot of good.
Of course this would be a huge cultural shift for Western countries and might a bridge to far.


----------



## tomdublin

EasilyAmused said:


> Prior to there being a vaccine it was regarded as a silver bullet.
> But now that vaccines are being rolled out we are being reminded that this is just another layer of defence against Covid.
> 
> In the last week Sam McConkey has warmed us that we may be facing at least a further three years of pandemic. Anthony Staines said we may be wearing face masks (more-or-less) forever.


If vaccines are nearly 100% effective in preventing serious illness or death from Covid-19 (which they seem to be) then vaccinating everyone is the logical silver bullet.  The "it's just another layer of defence" claim seems to be made primarily by health authorities and their PR surrogates when trying to justify the slow rollout.


----------



## Merowig

Paul O Mahoney said:


> I agree but mask wearing might be one good legacy, it's ubiquitous in Asia after 2002. I wouldn't be advocating mandatory mask wearing but if it reduced the annual flu or other annual respiratory illnesses it would do a lot of good.
> Of course this would be a huge cultural shift for Western countries and might a bridge to far.



Personally I will not wear the mask unless legally required - and for avoiding the flu people can get the yearly flu shot.
In Asia mask wearing is more widespread also due to high air pollution. In China it helps to mask ones identity in the surveillance state they live in (though they are working on better face recognition already). Unlikely to be adapted in the West.



EasilyAmused said:


> Prior to there being a vaccine it was regarded as a silver bullet.
> But now that vaccines are being rolled out we are being reminded that this is just another layer of defence against Covid.
> 
> In the last week Sam McConkey has warmed us that we may be facing at least a further three years of pandemic. Anthony Staines said we may be wearing face masks (more-or-less) forever.


Three years of further lockdown and one could kiss goodbye to the economy and the recession will likely have much more of a devastating effect than the pandemic. Apart of that very strict lockdowns seem not to be that impactful if at all.


			https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/eci.13484


----------



## EasilyAmused

Paul O Mahoney said:


> I wouldn't be advocating mandatory mask wearing but if it reduced the annual flu or other annual respiratory illnesses it would do a lot of good.



I hate mask wearing and only do so where it’s legally required, but based on anecdotal evidence there’s been an enormous drop in influenza and common cold this winter. 




tomdublin said:


> If vaccines are nearly 100% effective in preventing serious illness or death from Covid-19 ...



Pfizer, Moderna and Sputnik-V are in the 90ies but AZ is in the 70ies and J&J in the 60ies. 
And it goes without saying they are 0% with people that don’t get the vaccine. 
And we still don’t know for how long they’ll be effective. 



Merowig said:


> Three years of further lockdown and one could kiss goodbye to the economy and the recession will likely have much more of a devastating effect than the pandemic.



To clarify:


EasilyAmused said:


> In the last week Sam McConkey has warmed us that we may be facing at least a further three years of *pandemic*.


----------



## Merowig

With all the handwashing, shops closures, social distancing, closed schools and creches, travel bans and masks a drop of influenza and the cold is logical. 
Apart of that with people staying at home in most cases anyway it doesn't make much of  a sense to go to the GP if one catches the flue/cold so that might be even under reported - also some might want to avoid the GP in order to get "stabbed in the nose/brain" with the Covid Swap  as some symptoms are overlapping.

How much of a percentage of a drop in influenza is now to be assigned to what measure ? I doubt that can be now easily said if at all. 
And as we have working influenza vaccines every year I do not see the government being able to mandate face coverings when this pandemic here is over.


----------



## odyssey06

Merowig said:


> With all the handwashing, shops closures, social distancing, closed schools and creches, travel bans and masks a drop of influenza and the cold is logical.
> Apart of that with people staying at home in most cases anyway it doesn't make much of  a sense to go to the GP if one catches the flue/cold so that might be even under reported - also some might want to avoid the GP in order to get "stabbed in the nose/brain" with the Covid Swap  as some symptoms are overlapping.
> 
> How much of a percentage of a drop in influenza is now to be assigned to what measure ? I doubt that can be now easily said if at all.
> And as we have working influenza vaccines every year I do not see the government being able to mandate face coverings when this pandemic here is over.



Well we don't have working flu vaccines every year... in some years it is 0% matched against the strains that actually hit us unfortunately.
Similarly I think the concern re: covid vaccines is a new mutation appears and there is a scramble to roll out boosters.

But on the presumption that we will have long periods where the vaccine is well matched to the circulating strains and the majority of the population are vacccinated, I don't expect governments to retain the restrictions indefinitely - outside the scenario outlined above.


----------



## Purple

EasilyAmused said:


> Pfizer, Moderna and Sputnik-V are in the 90ies but AZ is in the 70ies and J&J in the 60ies.


What do you men by that?


----------



## tomdublin

EasilyAmused said:


> Pfizer, Moderna and Sputnik-V are in the 90ies but AZ is in the 70ies and J&J in the 60ies


The percentages you are citing pertain to those who don't develop any symptoms of the disease, not to mortality rates which drop to nearly zero with any vaccine currently on the market.  The media generally doesn't seem to report this difference.  Once everyone is vaccinated some will still contract the virus and develop symptoms but virtually nobody will die from it.


----------



## EasilyAmused

Purple said:


> What do you men by that?



As in, Pfizer, Moderna and Sputnik V are 92% to 95% effective, et cetera.


----------



## joe sod

EasilyAmused said:


> In the last week Sam McConkey just warned us that we may be facing at least a further three years of pandemic. Anthony Staines said we may be wearing face masks (more-or-less) forever.


Sam McConkey might be a science expert but his comments on everything outside of that have been idiotic. He was completely wrong on the vaccine and is divorced from the reality of the real world and how to run an economy during a pandemic. Of course it's easy to put out these scenarios when you are protected in the ivory towers of academia.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Study finds 94% drop in symptomatic Covid cases with Pfizer vaccine
					

Hospitalisations and serious illness still rising in younger groups in Israel




					www.irishtimes.com
				




This might lift the spirits a bit


----------



## EasilyAmused

joe sod said:


> Sam McConkey might be a science expert but his comments on everything outside of that have been idiotic. He was completely wrong on the vaccine and is divorced from the reality of the real world and how to run an economy during a pandemic. Of course it's easy to put out these scenarios when you are protected in the ivory towers of academia.




Time will tell. The pandemic I can live with, the lockdown is annoying, but I draw the line at homeschooling.


----------



## odyssey06

Locations for mass vaccination centres announced









						GAA clubs, hotels and stadiums: Here's where Ireland's 37 vaccination centres are going to be
					

There’s at least one in every county, and in the coming months large numbers will be vaccinated in these centres.




					www.thejournal.ie


----------



## Leo

tomdublin said:


> Once everyone is vaccinated some will still contract the virus and develop symptoms but virtually nobody will die from it.



What is your source for that?


----------



## tomdublin

Leo said:


> What is your source for that?











						Israel Covid vaccine data shows extremely low rate of infections
					

Only 0.04% of people caught virus a week after second dose and 0.002% needed hospital treatment




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## joe sod

The israelis have also shown that just one dose is good enough to stop the spread and prevent illness,  the British are also concentrating on administering the first dose to as many as possible. With the limited number of vaccines we have now we should be doing the same rather than holding back vaccines for the second dose which the hse  are now doing. This is sticking to rules for minimal benefits rather than being flexible and pragmatic. Tony holohan seems to have an iron grip on all the decision making.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

joe sod said:


> The israelis have also shown that just one dose is good enough to stop the spread and prevent illness,  the British are also concentrating on administering the first dose to as many as possible. With the limited number of vaccines we have now we should be doing the same rather than holding back vaccines for the second dose which the hse  are now doing. This is sticking to rules for minimal benefits rather than being flexible and pragmatic. Tony holohan seems to have an iron grip on all the decision making.


No Joe the Israelis are using the vaccine as per instruction by Pfizer and its the only vaccine they have. 
The good data they released  on Sunday posted above says that.
The UK are yet to release any meaningful data on their rollout and the effectiveness of the vaccines with one shot which is predominantly Astrazeneca. 

Finally Tony Holohan appears to be living in your head " rent free" he isn't the only one working on our rollout and trying to make him a despot is frankly puerile.


----------



## Purple

Given what we've known about vaccines for the last 100 years or so reduced rates of infection and transmission amongst people who have been vaccinated shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone. That's kind of the point of vaccines. I'm surprised anyone is surprised.


----------



## odyssey06

Purple said:


> Given what we've known about vaccines for the last 100 years or so reduced rates of infection and transmission amongst people who have been vaccinated shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone. That's kind of the point of vaccines. I'm surprised anyone is surprised.



There are some vaccines that don't reduce transmission, just provide protection. I think TB vaccine is like that.
And for example I looked for definitive studies showing e.g. the flu vaccine reduces transmission and drew a blank.
Probably it does but it's not guaranteed and establishing it requires effort.


----------



## Purple

odyssey06 said:


> There are some vaccines that don't reduce transmission, just provide protection. I think TB vaccine is like that.


Sure, but that was developed in 1921 and new vaccines are in the pipeline.
In the vast majority of cases vaccines reduce the number of infections within the community. Those that don't are the exception.


----------



## EasilyAmused

Purple said:


> Given what we've known about vaccines for the last 100 years or so reduced rates of infection and transmission amongst people who have been vaccinated shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone. That's kind of the point of vaccines. I'm surprised anyone is surprised.



This is how I understood vaccines to behave but I’ve since learned that this is not necessarily the case. 
All virus are different and all vaccines are different. 
Notwithstanding the fact that Coivd-19 is primarily transferred person-to-person, it may also be transmitted via contact/surfaces. 
Someone with Covid-19 could easily cough in the supermarket when returning a shopping trolley to a bay. The next person may be vaccinated but get the cough droplets on his/her hands. He/she may not use the hand sanitiser and shake hands when bumping into a friend at the deli counter.

Science will tell us, eventually.


----------



## joe sod

@EasilyAmused And someone might detonate a nuclear weapon, but sure that's been the case since 1945.


----------



## Purple

EasilyAmused said:


> Notwithstanding the fact that Coivd-19 is primarily transferred person-to-person, it may also be transmitted via contact/surfaces


It can but it rarely does. 
Therefore it is correct to say that  reduced rates of infection and transmission are seen in vaccinated populations  or, to put it another way, vaccination results in a reduced rate of transmission and infection. 

Just like with most vaccines.


----------



## Firefly

At least 15 million people in the UK have received at least one dose of a coronavirus vaccine.....









						Covid vaccine: How many people are vaccinated in the UK?
					

A look at progress made in vaccinating the country, as more than 52 million people have received at least one dose and 38 million have had a booster or third dose.



					www.bbc.com


----------



## odyssey06

Firefly said:


> At least 15 million people in the UK have received at least one dose of a coronavirus vaccine.....



I would hope we in ROI will get indirect benefit from this in terms of reduced transmission, should start to kick in to reduced cases especially in N Ireland.


----------



## EasilyAmused

Purple said:


> It can but it rarely does.



Thanks for the link. A very informative read. 

IIRC a year ago they were saying it was about 80:20 p2p:surfaces. 
As someone that keeps saying “our understanding is evolving” I should listen to my own advice more often.


----------



## Leo

tomdublin said:


> Israel Covid vaccine data shows extremely low rate of infections
> 
> 
> Only 0.04% of people caught virus a week after second dose and 0.002% needed hospital treatment
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com



Now the challenge is getting 'everyone' vaccinated, polls in December suggested only 71% of the population here would take it!


----------



## EasilyAmused

Leo said:


> Now the challenge is getting 'everyone' vaccinated, polls in December suggested only 71% of the population here would take it!



71% isn’t a bad figure. That leaves 29% that are vaccine hesitant, vaccine allergic and anti-vaxxer. As time passes and there are no apparent side-effects the numbers of vaccine hesitant will fall off significantly. 
Anti-vaxxers will remain constant, and vaccine allergic too depending on the allergy.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Leo said:


> Now the challenge is getting 'everyone' vaccinated, polls in December suggested only 71% of the population here would take it!


I think the last 6 weeks might have softened a few coughs, this has been a tough lockdown and people will realise that vaccines are the most efficient way to get back to a semblance of normality.


----------



## EmmDee

I was just looking at the vaccine numbers for Ireland Vs UK. Their rollout of first jabs is incredible but I wonder are they going to have to slow significantly to catch up.

My "back of the envelope" calculations... In the UK, about 3% of those who have gotten a first jab have received the second (Vs roughly 50% here). I might have it wrong but it looks like our rate of full vaccination per population is twice that of the UK (approx 90k Vs approx 500k)


----------



## joe sod

@EmmDee yes but the UK have deliberately made that decision to administer the first dose as quickly as possible and hold back on the second dose until much later, most of the benefits of the vaccine come from the first dose anyway, the benefit of the booster shot is marginal, maybe good for the individual getting both shots but society at large benefits by getting many more people vaccinated with one dose quickly. We can criticize the UK for many things but their approach and implemention of their vaccine program has been world class.


----------



## odyssey06

A high level reason for lack of vaccines is the failure by the worlds 3 largest vaccine companies Merck GSK and Sanofi









						Why the world’s three biggest vaccine makers failed on Covid-19
					

Less than a year on, mRNA inoculations look likely to change the industry forever




					www.irishtimes.com


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

odyssey06 said:


> A high level reason for lack of vaccines is the failure by the worlds 3 largest vaccine companies Merck GSK and Sanofi
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why the world’s three biggest vaccine makers failed on Covid-19
> 
> 
> Less than a year on, mRNA inoculations look likely to change the industry forever
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.irishtimes.com


Great link, I couldn't believe GSKs decision, Merck too, two renowned vaccine makers and they are simply on the sidelines.


----------



## EmmDee

joe sod said:


> @EmmDee yes but the UK have deliberately made that decision to administer the first dose as quickly as possible and hold back on the second dose until much later, most of the benefits of the vaccine come from the first dose anyway, the benefit of the booster shot is marginal, maybe good for the individual getting both shots but society at large benefits by getting many more people vaccinated with one dose quickly. We can criticize the UK for many things but their approach and implemention of their vaccine program has been world class.



I'm aware of that. The point I was making is that there is a much larger gap than I had assumed. They still need to get the second jab in within 12 weeks (according to their own policy). They have a large number to cover which... As I said... Whether they will have to slow down rolling out to new tiers.

The first jab does provide a lot of cover. However the second jab is needed for the completion of the protection rate. People will start relaxing after the first jab and they run the risk of continued spread and / or further mutation if they can't keep measures in place between jabs


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

EmmDee said:


> I was just looking at the vaccine numbers for Ireland Vs UK. Their rollout of first jabs is incredible but I wonder are they going to have to slow significantly to catch up.
> 
> My "back of the envelope" calculations... In the UK, about 3% of those who have gotten a first jab have received the second (Vs roughly 50% here). I might have it wrong but it looks like our rate of full vaccination per population is twice that of the UK (approx 90k Vs approx 500k)


You wouldn't be far off, another thing that popped into my head today was with the UK striving on with the initial dose, will people " bother" going for the second? 

Figures for infection and deaths are falling rapidly in the UK and I would expect them to have society reopened considerably  by April and people might just think one dose is enough.


----------



## EasilyAmused

joe sod said:


> @EmmDee yes but the UK have deliberately made that decision to administer the first dose as quickly as possible and hold back on the second dose until much later, most of the benefits of the vaccine come from the first dose anyway, the benefit of the booster shot is marginal,



According to Pfizer the first dose is 52% effective. This increases to 95% upon the second dose. 

In Israel they’ve found the first dose to be less effective than the Pfizer figure of 52%.


----------



## tomdublin

EasilyAmused said:


> According to Pfizer the first dose is 52% effective. This increases to 95% upon the second dose.
> 
> In Israel they’ve found the first dose to be less effective than the Pfizer figure of 52%.


The media and many on here are obsessed with these percentages but they don't matter that much as they capture all infections no matter how minor. Much more important is the percentage of those who after being vaccinated develop serious Covid-related symptoms or even die.   Here the Pfizer vaccine is almost 100% effective as the Israeli study shows.


----------



## joe sod

A million people vaccinated with 52% effective is much better overall than 500,000 vaccinated with 90% effective. That's the calculation the British have made because you then have alot more people with adequate protection against the virus, you are cutting down on the spread much quicker. With this pandemic speed or the lack of it has been pivotal,  if the Chinese had been much faster in admitting that they had a new deadly contagious virus rather than covering up we would not be in this situation


----------



## EasilyAmused

I’m interested to see how many of those in the U.K. that have received Pfizer dose 1 will die of Covid or get seriously ill five to twelve weeks later.


----------



## EasilyAmused

New Zealand received their first batch of vaccines on Monday. 60,000 doses of Pfizer. They’re scheduled to begin administering jabs on Saturday, starting with border workers. 

In France’s first week they vaccinated 400 people. Now they have more fully vaccinated people than the U.K.  

The USA has 12.1 million people fully vaccinated. Their death toll is half a million and is expected to be 640,000 by 1st June.


----------



## joe sod

Interested that you mentioned that New Zealand only started vaccinating this week and small numbers. Who will be in a better place in a year's time the UK or NZ. They have invested so much capital in zero covid that they won't be able to open an inch until they get everyone vaccinated. The UK will begin opening substantially in next few months. That will also pose great difficulties for us much more than last summer trying to maintain restrictions into a second summer when our big neighbours is open


----------



## EasilyAmused

joe sod said:


> Who will be in a better place in a year's time the UK or NZ.



Time will tell, but I imagine it’ll be New Zealand:

U.K. Deaths: 118,195
That’s 1,735 deaths per million population. 

N.Z. Deaths: 26
That’s 5 deaths per million population.


----------



## EmmDee

joe sod said:


> Interested that you mentioned that New Zealand only started vaccinating this week and small numbers. Who will be in a better place in a year's time the UK or NZ. They have invested so much capital in zero covid that they won't be able to open an inch until they get everyone vaccinated. The UK will begin opening substantially in next few months. That will also pose great difficulties for us much more than last summer trying to maintain restrictions into a second summer when our big neighbours is open



It will be interesting to see how the next 6 months pan out. On current plans, despite starting later than UK and notwithstanding the UK's success to date, a number of EU countries (particularly the Scandis) plan to have fully vaccinated a number of months before the UK. If NZ plan to take a similar approach and have supply, they could be in a good place.


----------



## EasilyAmused

NZ is in no rush anyway. The longer they postpone vaccinations the greater choice there will be and more vaccines available at a lower price (presumably).

Auckland has just left a three day circuit breaker lockdown. Three days!!!
AFAIK they haven’t had a national lockdown since the winter of 2020 (their winter).

That footage of Jacibda Arden at a barbecue, passing ‘round ketchup, people sharing salad scoops, no masks, no social distancing... it’s like something from the movies.


----------



## Purple

EasilyAmused said:


> NZ is in no rush anyway. The longer they postpone vaccinations the greater choice there will be and more vaccines available at a lower price (presumably).
> 
> Auckland has just left a three day circuit breaker lockdown. Three days!!!
> AFAIK they haven’t had a national lockdown since the winter of 2020 (their winter).
> 
> That footage of Jacibda Arden at a barbecue, passing ‘round ketchup, people sharing salad scoops, no masks, no social distancing... it’s like something from the movies.


Yes, if we were 4000Km from our nearest neighbour we could probably do that as well.


----------



## EasilyAmused

No, the reason they can have barbecues in January/February is because they’re in the Southern Hemisphere.


----------



## tomdublin

Purple said:


> Yes, if we were 4000Km from our nearest neighbour we could probably do that as well.


New Zealand having a competent government also helps.


----------



## Purple

tomdublin said:


> New Zealand having a competent government also helps.


They are a reflection of a competent electorate.


----------



## joe sod

But new Zealand obviously has a different legal and political system. They were able to implement enforced quarantine manned by the army straight away. For even minor changes to our system requires legislation to be passed by the dail. Why is that,  is it our constitutional system or is it our legal system. How many government decisions have been over ruled by judges because it is "unconstitutional "


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

joe sod said:


> But new Zealand obviously has a different legal and political system. They were able to implement enforced quarantine manned by the army straight away. For even minor changes to our system requires legislation to be passed by the dail. Why is that,  is it our constitutional system or is it our legal system. How many government decisions have been over ruled by judges because it is "unconstitutional "


Our constitution........and while its wonderful to have a written one that protects us citizens it does cause issues when passing legislation. 
Personally I feel its time for a review afterall it was written in a different era. But thats for another thread


----------



## SlurrySlump

Are the residents of New Zealand being vaccinated at the moment?


----------



## EasilyAmused

Paul O Mahoney said:


> ...it was written in a different era


... by a priest. 



SlurrySlump said:


> Are the residents of New Zealand being vaccinated at the moment?





EasilyAmused said:


> They’re scheduled to begin administering jabs on Saturday, starting with border workers.


----------



## Purple

EasilyAmused said:


> ... by a priest.


An no, in fairness to Dev he resisted considerable pressure form the Clergy to have Roman Christianity made the State religion. Considering the time it was written it is a remarkably secular document.


----------



## tomdublin

joe sod said:


> But new Zealand obviously has a different legal and political system. They were able to implement enforced quarantine manned by the army straight away. For even minor changes to our system requires legislation to be passed by the dail. Why is that,  is it our constitutional system or is it our legal system. How many government decisions have been over ruled by judges because it is "unconstitutional "


Ireland and New Zealand have very similar legal and political systems and New Zealand respects the civil rights of its citizens as much as Ireland.  In Ireland the problem seems to lie with political culture (the corrosive influence of vested interests), low quality of political personnel (lots of primary school teachers, small town solicitors, etc), a greedy, unreformed legal system out of control and a largely cynical, self-serving public sector and civil service.


----------



## Purple

tomdublin said:


> Ireland and New Zealand have very similar legal and political systems and New Zealand respects the civil rights of its citizens as much as Ireland.  In Ireland the problem seems to lie with political culture (the corrosive influence of vested interests), low quality of political personnel (lots of primary school teachers, small town solicitors, etc), a greedy, unreformed legal system out of control and a largely cynical, self-serving public sector and civil service.


And an uninformed electorate which is easily led by opportunistic populist opposition politicians.


----------



## joe sod

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Our constitution........and while its wonderful to have a written one that protects us citizens it does cause issues when passing legislation.
> Personally I feel its time for a review afterall it was written in a different era. But thats for another thread


It's how the constitution is interpreted that is the problem,  even if it is rewritten it can still be interpreted by the judiciary in different ways. The American constitution is much older than the irish one yet never hear any issues with being "unconstitutional ". Trumps signature was final in many instances,  even the British system does not get bogged down in legal issues,  alot of brexit related stuff was pushed through despite the legality arguments. Here the government seems to be hamstrung by legalities all the time


----------



## Purple

joe sod said:


> It's how the constitution is interpreted that is the problem,  even if it is rewritten it can still be interpreted by the judiciary in different ways. The American constitution is much older than the irish one yet never hear any issues with being "unconstitutional ". Trumps signature was final in many instances,  even the British system does not get bogged down in legal issues,  alot of brexit related stuff was pushed through despite the legality arguments. Here the government seems to be hamstrung by legalities all the time


The Americans and British may have Civil Servants who are competent enough to write legislation. The competence levels across the top levels of the Civil Service seems to be very lacking, despite very high pay rates.


----------



## DublinHead54

New Zealand and Ireland are very different. We should be looking at our neighbours 200km up the road that are well on their way to being vacinnated. 

No matter how bad the handling of COVID has been in the UK, BoJo has gotten the vaccine rollout right thus far.


----------



## Purple

Dublinbay12 said:


> New Zealand and Ireland are very different. We should be looking at our neighbours 200km up the road that are well on their way to being vacinnated.
> 
> No matter how bad the handling of COVID has been in the UK, BoJo has gotten the vaccine rollout right thus far.


They are still in the Brexit propaganda mode so I for one will hold off congratulating them for the moment.


----------



## peemac

Dublinbay12 said:


> New Zealand and Ireland are very different. We should be looking at our neighbours 200km up the road that are well on their way to being vacinnated.
> 
> No matter how bad the handling of COVID has been in the UK, BoJo has gotten the vaccine rollout right thus far.


The Boris Brexit media put a very very shiny gloss on everything.

Yes they had a 4 week headstart, but possibly they are moving too quickly. Will the proverbial hit the fan when they start thinking about the second jab weeks later than is recommended.


----------



## DublinHead54

Purple said:


> They are still in the Brexit propaganda mode so I for one will hold off congratulating them for the moment.





peemac said:


> The Boris Brexit media put a very very shiny gloss on everything.
> 
> Yes they had a 4 week headstart, but possibly they are moving too quickly. Will the proverbial hit the fan when they start thinking about the second jab weeks later than is recommended.



I'm basing my opinion on facts rather than media gloss or propaganda. My parents live in the North are 65-70 with no underlying health conditions and got the vaccine 2.5 weeks ago and have their date for the second. If I compare to my wife's older parents (70+) with underlying health conditions, they still don't know when they will get the vaccine. 

The UK had a four week head start because the EU took longer to approve based on the same data. In the end the approval was a formality. My parents described the vaccine administration as a well oiled process. In Ireland we've only just announced or mass vaccine centres. 

So I think the evidence suggests that we are doing a poor job of rollout.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Dublinbay12 said:


> I'm basing my opinion on facts rather than media gloss or propaganda. My parents live in the North are 65-70 with no underlying health conditions and got the vaccine 2.5 weeks ago and have their date for the second. If I compare to my wife's older parents (70+) with underlying health conditions, they still don't know when they will get the vaccine.
> 
> The UK had a four week head start because the EU took longer to approve based on the same data. In the end the approval was a formality. My parents described the vaccine administration as a well oiled process. In Ireland we've only just announced or mass vaccine centres.
> 
> So I think the evidence suggests that we are doing a poor job of rollout.


You appear to miss the rather important matter of having vaccines to rollout.


----------



## Purple

Dublinbay12 said:


> The UK had a four week head start because the EU took longer to approve based on the same data.


The UK approved the AstraZeneca vaaccine for conditional use on the 30th of December.
AstraZeneca didn't even apply to the EMA for approval until the 12th of January.
It's hard for the EMA to approve a drug when the manufacturer hasn't even applied for approval. 

I'm still not sure what happened but putting all the blame for that delay on the EU is, at the very least, premature. 
That's what I mean when I say that the UK is still in Brexit propaganda mode.


----------



## EasilyAmused

The U.K. also has a universal health care system. Everyone has a registration number from cradle to grave. This makes the rollout a lot easier.


----------



## Leo

Dublinbay12 said:


> I'm basing my opinion on facts rather than media gloss or propaganda...
> The UK had a four week head start because the EU took longer to approve based on the same data. In the end the approval was a formality.



You need to check your facts so. AZ only requested formal EU approval in mid January, long after they had done so in the UK. The EU had been calling on them to release data required to assess it earlier


----------



## Bronco Lane

Paul O Mahoney said:


> You appear to miss the rather important matter of having vaccines to rollout.


Do you know if vaccines are being administered at weekends?


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Bronco Lane said:


> Do you know if vaccines are being administered at weekends?


No idea on generalpopulation, there has been some to GP's and medical staff....


----------



## odyssey06

Something which might simplify rollout of Pfizer vaccine:

_BioNTech/Pfizer Covid vaccine no longer needs ultra-cold storage. Shot can be kept at normal medical freezer temperatures of minus 15C to minus 25C for up to two weeks, compared with the previous required storage conditions of between minus 60_C and minus 80C. 

More from the FT here (paywall).


----------



## DublinHead54

Leo said:


> You need to check your facts so. AZ only requested formal EU approval in mid January, long after they had done so in the UK. The EU had been calling on them to release data required to assess it earlier



Why the delay in applying? Is this just some form of technicality? I understand the EU had already been reviewing the vaccine much earlier as part of their 'rolling review'. 

I wasn't aware of it being reported that the EU were being delayed by AZ in approving the vaccine? \

I stand corrected if so.


----------



## Prosper

Dublinbay12 said:


> Why the delay in applying?


Probably due to pressure from the UK government combined with the lower price EU was prepared to pay. Time will tell.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Prosper said:


> Probably due to pressure from the UK government combined with the lower price EU was prepared to pay. Time will tell.


Allegedly.....(smiley face here)


----------



## odyssey06

From RTE:
People with underlying health conditions are set to be moved up the vaccination priority list under a plan being worked on by Government this weekend.
More than 370,000 people aged between 18 and 64 were ranked at number seven in the initial vaccination allocation list announced late last year.





__





						People with conditions set to be moved up vaccine list
					





					amp.rte.ie


----------



## Leo

Prosper said:


> Probably due to pressure from the UK government combined with the lower price EU was prepared to pay. Time will tell.



That was my sense of it too. Perhaps the UK government, desperate for a good news spin on Brexit offered incentives to prioritise the UK market? I haven't seen any statement from AZ explaining  why they waited weeks before releasing the full trial data to the EMA and then until Jan. 12th to submit the request for approval. The EMA were calling on AZ to release more date during December.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Leo said:


> That was my sense of it too. Perhaps the UK government, desperate for a good news spin on Brexit offered incentives to prioritise the UK market? I haven't seen any statement from AZ explaining  why they waited weeks before releasing the full trial data to the EMA and then until Jan. 12th to submit the request for approval. The EMA were calling on AZ to release more date during December.


There's little doubt something was done to favour the UK, yields in the AZ EU factories was fine when producing the initial batches but then fell off a cliff.


----------



## tomdublin

odyssey06 said:


> From RTE:
> People with underlying health conditions are set to be moved up the vaccination priority list under a plan being worked on by Government this weekend.
> More than 370,000 people aged between 18 and 64 were ranked at number seven in the initial vaccination allocation list announced late last year.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> People with conditions set to be moved up vaccine list
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> amp.rte.ie


This looks like politicians trying to ingratiate themselves with patient lobby groups.  If some groups will be moved up the queue, who will be moved down?


----------



## Leo

tomdublin said:


> This looks like politicians trying to ingratiate themselves with patient lobby groups.  If some groups will be moved up the queue, who will be moved down?



People at lower risk of dying or suffering serious illness.


----------



## tomdublin

Leo said:


> People at lower risk of dying or suffering serious illness.


The list as it exists has already been designed to prioritize at-risk groups, presumably based on scientific evidence.  I just  wonder if the revised list which de-prioritizes some at-risk groups is based on better science or on louder screaming by some lobby groups.


----------



## Leo

tomdublin said:


> The list as it exists has already been designed to prioritize at-risk groups, presumably based on scientific evidence.  Which at-risk groups will be de-prioritized?



Nope. The group directly ahead of them includes a lot of government and HSE officials many of whom who are are significantly lower risk. Then a lot of the healthcare workers who are not in patient contact in group 4 are also significantly lower risk.


----------



## tomdublin

OK that's reassuring if it comes at the expense of groups who should never have been prioritized in the first place


----------



## john luc

A friend in the trade has told me tonight that the tender for new fridges for new vaccine centers and for GP's has only gone out FRIDAY.


----------



## Ceist Beag

TBH I would rather we deal with facts here rather than taking the word of your friend in the trade.


----------



## odyssey06

tomdublin said:


> OK that's reassuring if it comes at the expense of groups who should never have been prioritized in the first place


The list contradicted earlier health advice - people with such conditions were told to cocoon basically.
And 65-69 year olds were not.
Yet in the vaccination rollout plan people with underlying conditions were ranked below 65-69 year olds.
So the initial prioritisation always seems off to me, I think they were relying on the vulnerable people to continue cocooning and not get infected which is reasonable in the short term but not when lockdowns extend for months.


----------



## EasilyAmused

odyssey06 said:


> So the initial prioritisation always seems off to me, I think they were relying on the vulnerable people to continue cocooning and not get infected which is reasonable in the short term but not when lockdowns extend for months.



AFAIK, “cocooning” as a restriction only applied to Lockdown One. It’s been voluntary since.


----------



## Purple

EasilyAmused said:


> AFAIK, “cocooning” as a restriction only applied to Lockdown One. It’s been voluntary since.


It was always voluntary.


----------



## odyssey06

Targets from @MichealMartinTD's speech on the % of over 18s who will have received a first dose:
- 40% by end-April
- 64% by end-May
- 82% by end-June



			https://twitter.com/newschambers/status/1364287866474487809


----------



## Sunny

Think he might as been claiming that at the same time as Q2 vaccine supplies from our good friends in AZ seem to be in doubt......

We should another state of the union address after the 9pm news. Indeed after every news bulliton from now on.....


----------



## odyssey06

Sunny said:


> Think he might as been claiming that at the same time as Q2 vaccine supplies from our good friends in AZ seem to be in doubt......
> 
> We should another state of the union address after the 9pm news. Indeed after every news bulliton from now on.....


Think we might be ok.... saw this on Twitter:
Taoiseach confirms AZ announcement today is factored into figures


----------



## Sunny

Except now the EU are disputing the story and the figures used. So what has been factored in? Is there is a big surprise in store if AZ manage to deliver more?? They are also factoring in vaccines that have not been approved yet. Know its hard but the messaging is still poor.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Sunny said:


> Except now the EU are disputing the story and the figures used. So what has been factored in? Is there is a big surprise in store if AZ manage to deliver more?? They are also factoring in vaccines that have not been approved yet. Know its hard but the messaging is still poor.


Pfizer are going to be producing more and that'll certainly help. J&J will be approved but reading US media they too are having difficulties with production.

The government can only go on what's planned and if those 3rd parties don't fulfil those plans there's very little that can be done.

Edit, just read in FiercePharma that J&J now have sorted initial issues and are producing to capacity


----------



## Sunny

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Pfizer are going to be producing more and that'll certainly help. J&J will be approved but reading US media they too are having difficulties with production.
> 
> The government can only go on what's planned and if those 3rd parties don't fulfil those plans there's very little that can be done.


Of course they are dependent on supply but when you have a press conference basically saying vaccines are the main or only way out of this, then you need to very clear about supplies you do have before you start using specific % targets. If they had factored in less Q2 supply from AZ this evening, then would they have told us if there hadnt been a leak at EU level through Reuters. And now that the EU are disputing the story, what is the potential upside to us if they do deliver. Why wasn't that part of the message?


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Sunny said:


> Of course they are dependent on supply but when you have a press conference basically saying vaccines are the main or only way out of this, then you need to very clear about supplies you do have before you start using specific % targets. If they had factored in less Q2 supply from AZ this evening, then would they have told us if there hadnt been a leak at EU level through Reuters. And now that the EU are disputing the story, what is the potential upside to us if they do deliver. Why wasn't that part of the message?


Was it a leak though? I did read that they knew about the reduction and factored it in.
I believe its a 50% reduction so we would be down 1m doses, however Pfizer are going to supply 70m more to the EU which we get 3% extra which is 2.1m I think 

Of course these figures might change again but remember from now on supply will increase not decrease


----------



## Sunny

When asked about the huge reduction which had never been flagged before, he said the Government factored it in. What exactly did they factor in? Now both the company and the EU are denying the story saying supply lines from outside the EU will be used. If this is true, then the ambitious figures used last night are actually Conservative and out of date already. I simply want to know what they are basing their statements on. He basically admitted they adjusted the targets on the back of a reuturs story that both sides are now denying.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Sunny said:


> When asked about the huge reduction which had never been flagged before, he said the Government factored it in. What exactly did they factor in? Now both the company and the EU are denying the story saying supply lines from outside the EU will be used. If this is true, then the ambitious figures used last night are actually Conservative and out of date already. I simply want to know what they are basing their statements on. He basically admitted they adjusted the targets on the back of a reuturs story that both sides are now denying.


My reading is that AZ are trying to fulfil the contracted amount of 180m doses. The EU merely said the figures quoted in the Reuters story were not correct ie 40m using 50% reduction is 90m of which we get 1m .
Neither have said the story is false just dispute the figures. 
AZ have also said its working on making production more efficient so, it might reach its target might not.

It's prudent to add in some level of contingency if there is a risk of supplies not reaching the 2m promised. If they simply ignored the risk and used 2m in their projections and the story was true they'd be called another set of names. 

As to the point that the projection is out of date , projections can't be out of date as if the variables change the projection changes, the original projection can be inaccurate but thats the fun with projections they are based on available data.


----------



## Sunny

They said they adjusted their figures to take account of the 60% drop in supplies from AZ that was reported. The company have come out and stated that they will deliver all 180m doses they are contractually obliged to using supply lines outside the EU. 

I have no issue with contingencies. I have no issue with people saying they don't know. I do have an issue with the leader of the country standing there giving very specific vaccination targets telling us that they had adjusted their schedule to take account of the drop in supply that was reported in the media but apparently is being denied. We are not talking tens of thousands of doses here. We are talking hundreds of thousands. So if they have a schedule which they based on not receiving hundreds of thousands of doses, I want to know what they based that on other than a media story and if it is not true, those vaccination plans announced last night have changed significantly within a hour of him being on air. Why don't they say that? 

We still can't get proper real time data on vaccines supplied and vaccines administered. Its not exactly rocket science. They have said vaccines are the only plan they have out of this. They don't exactly inspire confidence.


----------



## EasilyAmused

odyssey06 said:


> Targets from @MichealMartinTD's speech on the % of over 18s who will have received a first dose:
> - 40% by end-April
> - 64% by end-May
> - 82% by end-June
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/newschambers/status/1364287866474487809



55-60% fully vaccinated by the end of June.


----------



## Ceist Beag

Sunny said:


> Why don't they say that?


Quite simply because a simple message is more effective than a confusing one. Sunny you ask them to improve their messaging but if they followed your advice it would result in more criticism as people simply do not want to hear messaging that has a whole load of conditions built into it.
One interesting note this morning conveyed by Leo on Morning Ireland was that in a discussion with Ronan Glynn, he (Ronan Glynn) had a concern that the UK approach to delaying the second dose could risk an increase in variants. Logically that sounds plausible to me and I wonder how much consideration the UK have given to this, especially in their eagerness to set firm dates for reopening everything.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Sunny said:


> They said they adjusted their figures to take account of the 60% drop in supplies from AZ that was reported. The company have come out and stated that they will deliver all 180m doses they are contractually obliged to using supply lines outside the EU.
> 
> I have no issue with contingencies. I have no issue with people saying they don't know. I do have an issue with the leader of the country standing there giving very specific vaccination targets telling us that they had adjusted their schedule to take account of the drop in supply that was reported in the media but apparently is being denied. We are not talking tens of thousands of doses here. We are talking hundreds of thousands. So if they have a schedule which they based on not receiving hundreds of thousands of doses, I want to know what they based that on other than a media story and if it is not true, those vaccination plans announced last night have changed significantly within a hour of him being on air. Why don't they say that?
> 
> We still can't get proper real time data on vaccines supplied and vaccines administered. Its not exactly rocket science. They have said vaccines are the only plan they have out of this. They don't exactly inspire confidence.


If AZ do complete 180m doses then it's upside and more people get vaccinated and the projections changed accordingly.

I'm always amazed that people expect the government to tell people what's exactly going to happen, it's an unrealistic expectation. 
We have the vaccine only for 2 months in Ireland and the EU, producers are honing their production capabilities, nothing can be written in stone as we have never had to develop and produce a brand new product in its billions and then roll it out.


----------



## tomdublin

I understand why the government isn't lifting restrictions and why it doesn't know when this might change, but I don't understand why it claims that it now has a new "plan."  The "plan" announced yesterday is essentially to wait and see how the virus situation develops and then based on that decide what to do next and to vaccinate people as vaccines arrive.  It seems that some PR advisor or "behavioural scientist" has told the government that public morale will be higher if the public is made to believe that there is a plan.  It also seems that the government deems the general public a bit thick.


----------



## odyssey06

More information on the re-prioritisation of the vaccine rollout to focus on people with conditions at very high risk of covid complications.


people who are severely immunocompromised, obese above a certain BMI, have uncontrolled diabetes, undergoing certain treatments for cancer, and/or are living with certain chronic illnesses.
people aged between 16 and 69 with certain chronic neurological conditions, certain inherited metabolic diseases, Down Syndrome, and sickle cell disease.

https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2021/0223/1198926-vaccine-rollout-strategy/


----------



## Sunny

I don't expect anyone to tell me what exactly is going to happen. That's just ridiculous. They are directly asked about the news reports that we were only going to get 40% of promised deliveries from AZ. They gave a direct answer saying they had adjusted the schedule to account for this. Within 2 hours, we had both the EU and the Company saying these figures were incorrect and indeed the company said they would still deliver all promised doses by using supply lines outside the EU.

I am hardly asking for the moon and the stars to ask on what basis did they adjust their figures considering the story doesn't look like it was accurate. . Was it on the back of a news story? Was it simply being prudent? Why didn't they announce the figures telling us they had adjusted for an expected shortfall rather than wait to be asked? Why didn't they say that obviously if the reports aren't true, then there will be significant improvement in the schedule. 

They were caught on the hop last night and instead of just being honest, they tried to spin it that we had already adjusted for the shortfall. Even if I am being harsh, I don't see them coming out saying well obviously if we get hundreds of thousands of doses that we weren't expecting, then the schedule will be....

I didn't ask them to give precise vaccination targets. I didn't ask them to provide dates when a certain % of the population will be vaccinated. They did that. I just want them to stand over it. If they knew there was an issue with supplies that caused them to adjust their numbers, then they should have told us directly. Rather than tweets afterwards and then find out the story wasn't accurate in the first place...


----------



## Leo

Sunny said:


> And now that the EU are disputing the story, what is the potential upside to us if they do deliver. Why wasn't that part of the message?



Most people don't want the complicated message with all the variables laid out. In fairness, if they were to include all potential impacts on supply, they'd have to give multiple potential timelines based on all the moving parts. We'd have a timeline based on AZ meeting their commitments, another with them only delivering 50%, another with them maybe making 75%, then another number of variations with and without the J&J vaccine getting approval and then delivering various volumes, and then more variants for the other suppliers too. It'd be a confusing mess. 

If you want absolute certainty, then you have to wait until you have the vaccine at the point of administration. If you want to give people advance notice, you take the data you have available, factor in your confidence level of the suppliers delivering on commitments, your confidence that more suppliers will have their vaccines approved and then come up with a schedule that is hopefully a little on the conservative side so that they have a good chance of exceeding expectations by a small margin.


----------



## Sunny

Leo said:


> Most people don't want the complicated message with all the variables laid out. In fairness, if they were to include all potential impacts on supply, they'd have to give multiple potential timelines based on all the moving parts. We'd have a timeline based on AZ meeting their commitments, another with them only delivering 50%, another with them maybe making 75%, then another number of variations with and without the J&J vaccine getting approval and then delivering various volumes, and then more variants for the other suppliers too. It'd be a confusing mess.
> 
> If you want absolute certainty, then you have to wait until you have the vaccine at the point of administration. If you want to give people advance notice, you take the data you have available, factor in your confidence level of the suppliers delivering on commitments, your confidence that more suppliers will have their vaccines approved and then come up with a schedule that is hopefully a little on the conservative side so that they have a good chance of exceeding expectations by a small margin.


Once again, where I have once asked for certainty???

The Government gave a timetable based on adjusted figures. They said they adjusted them. I want to know on what basis they adjusted the figures based on the fact that the company have said there will not be a drop in Q2 deliveries. Did they do it on the back of a unsubstantiated news report? Is that really what we are basing our communication policy on?

If the Government said they were being prudent by having a schedule based on AZ not living up to their contractual delivery schedule, they why weren't they equally prudent with an unapproved vaccine that is having production issues in other jurisdictions? They have factored in full delivery from J&J.

I am not looking for certainty. I am looking for a clear concise message. I don't want dates. I don't want % of the population to be vaccinated by what date. I didn't need that last night. But if the Government stand up and give those numbers, I want to know that they are not just engaging in back of the envelope planning and communications spin. At no stage did the Government admit there was a potential supply problem with AZ until asked by journalists. And yet we are to believe that they adjusted their figures to take account of that disruption that looks like isn't even a disruption. I simply believe they were trying to spin it so that their great 'plan' announced on the 6pm news wasn't out of date by the 9pm news


----------



## EasilyAmused

Ceist Beag said:


> ...the UK approach to delaying the second dose could risk an increase in variants. Logically that sounds plausible to me and I wonder how much consideration the UK have given to this, especially in their eagerness to set firm dates for reopening everything.



Pfizer have indicated that the optimum time for the second jab is three to four weeks after the first. And that the efficacy drops off considerably after four weeks. I assume this view applies to both the original Covid-19 strain for which the Pfizer vaccine was tested, and for the London/South Africa/Brazilian/Nigerian/Bristol/Californian strain ma for which it was not trialled.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Exclusive: AstraZeneca to miss second-quarter EU vaccine supply target by half - EU official
					

AstraZeneca Plc has told the European Union it expects to deliver less than half the COVID-19 vaccines it was contracted to supply in the second quarter, an EU official told Reuters on Tuesday.




					www.reuters.com
				




Here is the Reuters story.


----------



## Leo

Sunny said:


> The Government gave a timetable based on adjusted figures. They said they adjusted them. I want to know on what basis they adjusted the figures based on the fact that the company have said there will not be a drop in Q2 deliveries. Did they do it on the back of a unsubstantiated news report? Is that really what we are basing our communication policy on?



You seem to be assuming they're reading what gets leaked to the press! 



Sunny said:


> I am not looking for certainty. I am looking for a clear concise message.



But it seems you're not looking for a clear concise message at all, you seem to be looking for them to go into detail on all the factors that they considered in coming to the most recent timeline. There are so many variables at play here with multiple suppliers with multiple facilities that to start going down that road can only just lead to more confusion.


----------



## odyssey06

While it feels the rollout here is interminably slow, according to HSE on course for 100,000 vaccinations this week.
Last week it was 80,000.

_Over 340,000 vaccine doses have been administered in Ireland so far, with 126,000 people fully vaccinated as of Friday. These are within the first two cohorts of frontline healthcare workers and residents in long-term care over the age of 65.
The latest figures mean that roughly around 2.5% of people in Ireland have been fully vaccinated against Covid-19._









						100,000 vaccines set to be administered this week as government expects big supply increase from April
					

The health minister has said capacity is being built up to vaccinate 250,000 people a week.




					www.thejournal.ie


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

odyssey06 said:


> While it feels the rollout here is interminably slow, according to HSE on course for 100,000 vaccinations this week.
> Last week it was 80,000.
> 
> _Over 340,000 vaccine doses have been administered in Ireland so far, with 126,000 people fully vaccinated as of Friday. These are within the first two cohorts of frontline healthcare workers and residents in long-term care over the age of 65.
> The latest figures mean that roughly around 2.5% of people in Ireland have been fully vaccinated against Covid-19._
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 100,000 vaccines set to be administered this week as government expects big supply increase from April
> 
> 
> The health minister has said capacity is being built up to vaccinate 250,000 people a week.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thejournal.ie


There's another story about infections falling off a cliff and  Prof Henry? I think  I heard saying it can only be attributable to vaccines didn't hear details.


----------



## odyssey06

Paul O Mahoney said:


> There's another story about infections falling off a cliff and  Prof Henry? I think  I heard saying it can only be attributable to vaccines didn't hear details.


Speaking at a briefing this afternoon, the HSE’s Chief Clinical Officer Dr. Colm Henry said there has been a “very severe drop” in infection rates and that it’s “very difficult” to attributed that to the drop in community transmission alone.









						'Collapse' in cases in hospital staff and care homes 'must be attributed to the vaccine'
					

The drop is “very difficult” to attribute to the drop in community transmission alone.




					www.thejournal.ie


----------



## Merowig

Wikipedia article how the US has accelerated the vaccination development and deployment









						Operation Warp Speed - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




The EU was much more hesitating....


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Merowig said:


> Wikipedia article how the US has accelerated the vaccination development and deployment
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Operation Warp Speed - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The EU was much more hesitating....


Well Pfizer didn't participate in that program, Moderna did and I'm unsure about J&J.

The German government invested about €600m into Biontech and Curevac with Biontech getting approximately 60% .

France also assisted Sanofi

The UK investment is largely unknown at this stage but its known that Oxford (AZ) and Novavax got substantial funding particularly in the research area. Of course the UK are the global leaders in genome research and that was also funded to speed up the process.

Europe wasn't wanting in helping companies and research.

The US scheme has been seen by many as an attempt by Trump to get the first vaccine out and from reading was fairly chaotic as weekly updates to the Whitehouse were part of the deal. All companies involved in the vaccine research signed a joint document/ statement in August/September 2020 saying nothing would be released before all safety and testing was done correctly.

Trumps administration were pressurising the companies to announce before the election and help him in the election.

Most in the industry now think that it was a waste of Federal money and achieved nothing extra as the vaccines were developed by companies in-house capabilities.


----------



## Leo

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Most in the industry now think that it was a waste of Federal money and achieved nothing extra as the vaccines were developed by companies in-house capabilities.



Yep, window dressing in an attempt to make the Trump administration appear to be doing something.


----------



## Merowig

The US has fully vaccinated over 6% of its population so far. The EU roughly a third of that percentage.
I do not see it as window dressing therefor. The EU did too little to late.


----------



## Merowig

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Well Pfizer didn't participate in that program, Moderna did and I'm unsure about J&J.











						So is Pfizer part of Operation Warp Speed or not? Yes and no.
					

Pfizer’s assertion that it is not part of Operation Warp Speed, the Trump administration’s vaccine program, is setting off a heated political debate.




					ca.news.yahoo.com
				






> At the same time, on July 22, Pfizer agreed to a $1.95 billion deal with the Trump administration “for large-scale production and nationwide delivery of 100 million doses of a COVID-19 vaccine in the United States following the vaccine’s successful manufacture and approval.”
> 
> Technically, that agreement has nothing to do with the development of the vaccine. But it also appears to undermine the claim that Pfizer is operating entirely outside Operation Warp Speed.
> 
> A senior administration official told Yahoo News that since “the early days of March when President Trump convened pharmaceutical companies at the White House, Pfizer has been a part of the incredible public-private partnership forged to combat the coronavirus pandemic. Additionally, the nearly 2 billion dollars awarded to Pfizer will go a long way in the manufacturing and distribution of the Pfizer vaccine in development.”


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Merowig said:


> So is Pfizer part of Operation Warp Speed or not? Yes and no.
> 
> 
> Pfizer’s assertion that it is not part of Operation Warp Speed, the Trump administration’s vaccine program, is setting off a heated political debate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ca.news.yahoo.com


They didn't and the second quote was Pfizer selling vaccines in the same way Moderna, AZ did. Using that argument would mean AZ took more money from the EU than the UK did.


----------



## Merowig

It isn't that black and white as you claim Paul but nevermind  




"Kurz said that he and Frederiksen will cooperate with Netanyahu on the "research and production of vaccines and drugs," saying that the first priority is to accelerate the production and procurement of vaccines."

Good move of Denmark and Austria


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Merowig said:


> It isn't that black and white as you claim Paul but nevermind
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Kurz said that he and Frederiksen will cooperate with Netanyahu on the "research and production of vaccines and drugs," saying that the first priority is to accelerate the production and procurement of vaccines."
> 
> Good move of Denmark and Austria


Oh yes it is , to the point that the links you posted clearly states that Pfizer did not take Federal money for the development or manufacturing of the vaccine.

The other claptrap quoted in the link was Ivanka Trump and the Trump administration trying to claim credit for something they had no hand or part in.

If you're trying to make a case against a fact you've a lot to learn.


----------



## EasilyAmused

Excellent podcast on the UK’s vaccine rollout:




__





						Spotify
					






					open.spotify.com
				




Neither host nor guest are fans of BoJo.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Merowig said:


> Corona in Europe - Why are Israel, UK and US vaccinating so ridiculously fast? - Innovation Origins
> 
> 
> The countries that will be able to be freed from the lockdown the quickest because they have administered enough corona vaccines to achieve herd immunity … Continued
> 
> 
> 
> 
> innovationorigins.com



For some reason the other link won't copy.

No matter,
So, for the all the money invested by Trump ( should be noted Ivanka thinks $18bn was invested) outlined in the above link, there is on one vaccine is presently in use in the US ....Moderna's.
J&Js $500m is a pittance to the world's biggest pharmaceutical company ($350bn market cap approximately) probably made no difference to what it has spent in getting its vaccine produced.

After all those billions the return isn't exactly stellar, actually its abysmal and hasn't made a jot of difference to the US, Europe, Israel or any other country.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Merowig said:


> It isn't that black and white as you claim Paul but nevermind
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Kurz said that he and Frederiksen will cooperate with Netanyahu on the "research and production of vaccines and drugs," saying that the first priority is to accelerate the production and procurement of vaccines."
> 
> Good move of Denmark and Austria


Are Israel researching and producing vaccines?, thought they were exclusively using Pfizer/BioNTech in a deal that was done whereby Israel would get more vaccines at a higher price than anyone else and provide detailed data on effectiveness and other vital benefits of the vaccine in a real world scenario.


----------



## Merowig

Israeli Teva is in talks with others to do some co-manufacture potentially. They were approached by and approached themselves some of the current companies which manufacture Covid-19 vaccines.
Israel is also doing its own research on antivirals and Covid-19 Vaccines.
Moderna is also used in Israel. They will have soon much more vaccines available than they need. Cyprus showed already earlier interest in getting some of the vaccines Israel won't need.


----------



## Merowig

Paul O Mahoney said:


> For some reason the other link won't copy.
> 
> No matter,
> So, for the all the money invested by Trump ( should be noted Ivanka thinks $18bn was invested) outlined in the above link, there is on one vaccine is presently in use in the US ....Moderna's.
> J&Js $500m is a pittance to the world's biggest pharmaceutical company ($350bn market cap approximately) probably made no difference to what it has spent in getting its vaccine produced.
> 
> After all those billions the return isn't exactly stellar, actually its abysmal and hasn't made a jot of difference to the US, Europe, Israel or any other country.


No the return will be stellar as the US and Israel will be able to reopen the economies much more earlier than Europe. The billions poured by Israel, the UK and the US into Vaccinations will be a pittance then.


----------



## Merowig

Some health workers 'frustrated' over vaccine roll-out
					

Bodies representing Dentists, Opticians and Physiotherapists say the vast majority of their members have not received appointments for vaccinations despite pledges that all healthcare workers would be vaccinated by the end of next week.




					www.rte.ie
				






> (...)
> The groups say they have been told the delay is due to problems with the online vaccination registration portal but the HSE says there are no issues with the system.
> 
> The Irish Dental Association says an estimated 85% of its members in private practice have not yet received an appointment to be vaccinated.
> 
> Caroline Robbins, who is on the IDA's GP Committee, said the association has been inundated with calls from members who have had no communications from the HSE despite registering for vaccines a number of weeks ago.
> (...)


Did the HSE's Excel file crash?


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Merowig said:


> No the return will be stellar as the US and Israel will be able to reopen the economies much more earlier than Europe. The billions poured by Israel, the UK and the US into Vaccinations will be a pittance then.


Again you seem to have an inability to back up your previous posts even though what you asserted was incorrect. 
Israel situation is unique, and no other country can replicate that, the US situation has improved because Biden is in charge and Pfizer, a company who didn't participate in warpspeed have doubled US production in its fill plant , and moved from 100 days to 60 days for total production and is providing the majority of vaccines being rolled out.

The Billions poured in changed nothing, simply " window dressing".


----------



## Merowig

The US ordered early from multiple sources and rolled that out quickly.
The US had constantly a higher percentage of their population vaccinated than the EU/Ireland.

On the 20th of January the  percentage of fully vaccinated people was seven times higher in the US than in the EU. You can look that up yourself on ourworld in data. There is no Biden effect.

If that is window dressing for you - I love that window dressing and would hope the EU and Ireland would do similar - as the difference can be seen.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Merowig said:


> The US ordered early from multiple sources and rolled that out quickly.
> The US had constantly a higher percentage of their population vaccinated than the EU/Ireland.
> 
> On the 20th of January the  percentage of fully vaccinated people was seven times higher in the US than in the EU. You can look that up yourself on ourworld in data. There is no Biden effect.
> 
> If that is window dressing for you - I love that window dressing and would hope the EU and Ireland would do similar - as the difference can be seen.


Ordering and getting are two different things as every vaccine needs approval by regulators in the case of the US and the EU for both mRna was December. 
Production capabilities between Europe and US are different with Pfizers capability in the US 5 times that of Europe at 1million a day , additionally Pfizers strategy was/is geographical production.

Moderna doesn't have its own manufacturing capability and is in JV agreements which didn't start well but is now producing well. 

I'll say this again warpspeed did not increase any production beyond what would have happened anyway and that's what you asserted. 

As a footnote, Biden said he'd get 100m people jabbed in his first 100 days by fixing  the Trump administrations roll out and dealing with producers directly and fixing the federal logistics, 50m of that 100m promise has been achieved in 37 days.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Merowig said:


> Israeli Teva is in talks with others to do some co-manufacture potentially. They were approached by and approached themselves some of the current companies which manufacture Covid-19 vaccines.
> Israel is also doing its own research on antivirals and Covid-19 Vaccines.
> Moderna is also used in Israel. They will have soon much more vaccines available than they need. Cyprus showed already earlier interest in getting some of the vaccines Israel won't need.


So no its not producing. The Israeli Heath Minister has stated categorically said the Cyprus story is false and even if Cyprus did ask Israel would say No.

Teva are a generic producer,how would they make a difference?, all they do is produce off patent drugs using the research done by other companies and sometimes illegally given the amount of law suits its faced in the past.


----------



## EasilyAmused

Merowig said:


> View attachment 5398




The takeaway statistics of fully vaccinated people:
Israel 37.8%, USA 6.5%, EU 2.3% and UK 1%.

Israel is to Covid vaccination what New Zealand is to Covid safety. 

Every other country has a long way to go. 

There was always going to be vaccine nationalism. Nobody is surprised that the US leads the other nations, though personally I’m surprised it’s as low as 6.5%. 

The EU versus UK debate is splitting hairs at this stage. 

@Merowig and @Paul O Mahoney are like two bald men fighting over a comb.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

France has reversed its initial decision not to give 55 and older( up to 74)the Astrazeneca vaccine as studies have shown it is effective in that age group.

I think we already allowed it to be used upto 70 but looking at detailed data on the ECDC site we used less than 50% of AZ deliveries upto week 7 (21st February ) and nearly all were healthcare workers.

Overall up to that date we received 440k vaccines and administrated 378k , there are a few discrepancies in the data but that's timing the ECDC update once a week (Wednesday) and the HSE are now issuing daily figures on pdf but only from February 1st on its website and last Friday 426k vaccines were administered with 2/3rds first doses rest 2nd doses.

The ECDC data is detailed and even is broken down by age group as well as the cohorts more importantly the vaccine received figures. 
All countries (29) data is available if the nerds amongst us are interested.


----------



## Bronco Lane

Unfortunately the promised 100,000 vaccines to be administered last week never happened.  Big announcements are made with lots of publicity, but then they fall flat on their face.


----------



## odyssey06

Bronco Lane said:


> Unfortunately the promised 100,000 vaccines to be administered last week never happened.  Big announcements are made with lots of publicity, but then they fall flat on their face.


Due to supply issues with AZ, they were short 20,000 doses.
I wouldn't say 80,000 doses a week is falling flat on face though, a stumble for sure.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Bronco Lane said:


> Unfortunately the promised 100,000 vaccines to be administered last week never happened.  Big announcements are made with lots of publicity, but then they fall flat on their face.


They can't control deliveries or non deliveries.


----------



## Bronco Lane

Paul O Mahoney said:


> They can't control deliveries or non deliveries.


When do they find out that a delivery won't be made?  Is it at the last minute?


----------



## Sunny

Does anyone know what the actual figures are? All we are getting is information that is a couple of days old. I haven't seen any detailed information about what % of each group has been vaccinated. Has anyone? We have figures that contradict with what the HSE provides to the ECDC. We have no information about weekly expected supplies and actual deliveries. I saw Fergal Bowers saying the information around vaccines is not exactly free flowing. 

I don't want to hear next week we will vaccinate 100,000 people or next month we will vaccinate 10,000,000 people. I just want to up to date information about expected supplies, actual deliveries and information about number of vaccines dispensed and to what groups.....It seems like they are completely lacking a proper IT infrastructure to capture this information. These are key figures. Do the HSE themselves know what the daily figures look like or are they still working on previous days?


----------



## MelF

Supply issues a handy get-out-of-jail card for HSE uselessness - my sister is a healthcare worker and has been 'called' three times to get the vaccine, only to turn up and be told every time that she's 'not on the list'. She still hasn't gotten it despite having to make alternative childcare/work stand-in arrangements each and every time.
Not sure why any of us expected any different tbh, when the HSE never deliver in any way shape or form...


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Bronco Lane said:


> When do they find out that a delivery won't be made?  Is it at the last minute?


According to them it was .


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Sunny said:


> Does anyone know what the actual figures are? All we are getting is information that is a couple of days old. I haven't seen any detailed information about what % of each group has been vaccinated. Has anyone? We have figures that contradict with what the HSE provides to the ECDC. We have no information about weekly expected supplies and actual deliveries. I saw Fergal Bowers saying the information around vaccines is not exactly free flowing.
> 
> I don't want to hear next week we will vaccinate 100,000 people or next month we will vaccinate 10,000,000 people. I just want to up to date information about expected supplies, actual deliveries and information about number of vaccines dispensed and to what groups.....It seems like they are completely lacking a proper IT infrastructure to capture this information. These are key figures. Do the HSE themselves know what the daily figures look like or are they still working on previous days?


I've used the ECDC for vaccine deliveries but that's only going to be updated today for week 8 which is last week. That has a lot of data on it , and I haven't had a chance to go through it in detail.

The HSE are issuing daily cumulative figures on one of its website pages I'll try and post the link again, but thats only for February onwards.

I will say the following though, from what I've seen so far anything that was received has been used with very little stock held back, with the exception of AZ we only used about 50% of deliveries ( 44k to 21st February) as its not being administered to older people who are now the focus, its being given to under 70s mainly healthcare workers some in the 18-24 age group.

There are timing differences and these are to be expected as collating does take a few days.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Integrated Information Service - Vaccination programme dashboard - HSE.ie
					






					www.hse.ie
				




Here are the daily reports the HSE issue, again they are cumulative.
The cohort populations that they are vaccinating now are on the ECDC website as are the age populations.

It should be noted that the total population that is on the ECDC website is 3.76m as children and pregnant women at 1.2 m aren't included.


----------



## Sunny

Paul O Mahoney said:


> I've used the ECDC for vaccine deliveries but that's only going to be updated today for week 8 which is last week. That has a lot of data on it , and I haven't had a chance to go through it in detail.
> 
> The HSE are issuing daily cumulative figures on one of its website pages I'll try and post the link again, but thats only for February onwards.
> 
> I will say the following though, from what I've seen so far anything that was received has been used with very little stock held back, with the exception of AZ we only used about 50% of deliveries ( 44k to 21st February) as its not being administered to older people who are now the focus, its being given to under 70s mainly healthcare workers some in the 18-24 age group.
> 
> There are timing differences and these are to be expected as collating does take a few days.



Just to be clear, not accusing them of not using the vaccines. Having said that, the argument for not using AZ on older people is getting weaker by the day. 

These are key figures and they are not complicated figures. There shouldn't be a delay in collating the data. Certainly not a few days. Is Paul Reid sitting there at 5.30 this evening in his office going 'Right, I will find out what happened today in a couple of days time when we have got all the paperwork sorted'. No organisation would accept KPI's that are days out of date. It means the systems are not in place.

Even those figures on the dashboard are not much use. They are two days late, include no data on expected supplies versus actual deliveries so people can see for themselves the issues around the supply and there are no total numbers for each cohort. Telling me you have done 159k in cohort 1 is pretty useless if they don't tell us how much people they are counting in cohort 1.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Sunny said:


> Just to be clear, not accusing them of not using the vaccines. Having said that, the argument for not using AZ on older people is getting weaker by the day.
> 
> These are key figures and they are not complicated figures. There shouldn't be a delay in collating the data. Certainly not a few days. Is Paul Reid sitting there at 5.30 this evening in his office going 'Right, I will find out what happened today in a couple of days time when we have got all the paperwork sorted'. No organisation would accept KPI's that are days out of date. It means the systems are not in place.
> 
> Even those figures on the dashboard are not much use. They are two days late, include no data on expected supplies versus actual deliveries so people can see for themselves the issues around the supply and there are no total numbers for each cohort. Telling me you have done 159k in cohort 1 is pretty useless if they don't tell us how much people they are counting in cohort 1.


Dunno what he's doing but it is what it is the data is out there.....


----------



## Purple

Sunny said:


> Is Paul Reid sitting there at 5.30 this evening in his office going 'Right, I will find out what happened today in a couple of days time when we have got all the paperwork sorted'. No organisation would accept KPI's that are days out of date. It means the systems are not in place.


It is the HSE that we are talking about. If what you've outlines is what happens I'd be pleasantly surprised.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Around 3% of population fully vaccinated, Dept says
					

The Department of Health has said that Ireland is currently above the EU average, with around 3% of the population fully vaccinated, and 6% of the population having received at least one Covid-19 vaccine dose.




					www.rte.ie
				




The above story includes the amount of vaccines received upto last week. 
Looks like AZ are going to be behind again .

These figures are the same as the ECDC website which was updated today to week 8.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

COVID-19: Italy and EU block Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine shipment to Australia as shortages row escalates
					

The EU has used an export control mechanism for the first time to prevent doses being shipped before they are given to the bloc.




					news.sky.com
				




This is going to cause a row.

At one level I understand why but surely this is not a good way of doing things.
I'll bet a fiver the UK will get involved.


----------



## Sunny

Here is an interesting table from the ECDC...

Any idea why we are so low with the over 80's???


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Sunny said:


> Here is an interesting table from the ECDC...
> 
> Any idea why we are so low with the over 80's???
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 5416


I'd say that we only started last week the general roll out the ones in care homes are done.

Edit: @Sunny your figures are first doses, (they don't make it easy to read)

Population of that cohort is 170,706

Total doses        36380(21.3%)

First doses          21082 (12.3%)
Second doses     15298 (9%)

Obviously from last week per ECDC updated today


----------



## tomdublin

Sunny said:


> Here is an interesting table from the ECDC...
> 
> Any idea why we are so low with the over 80's???
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 5416


These figures look grim.  Does this mean that in terms of total share of population vaccinated Ireland has now slipped to near the bottom of the EU ranking or am I missing something?


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

tomdublin said:


> These figures look grim.  Does this mean that in terms of total share of population vaccinated Ireland has now slipped to near the bottom of the EU ranking or am I missing something?


We have 3.8% fully vaccinated as at 28th February and per ECDC so we are mid table I'd say
Our vaccine population is about 3.7m as children and pregnant women about 1.2m aren't included.


----------



## joe sod

Looks like the vaccine rollout has been a massive political failure by the EU and Ursula Von der Lyons in particular. Austria and Denmark in talks with Israel on supplying 2nd generation vaccines and cooperating in producing them,  Hungary has independently authorised the Sputnik and SinoVac vaccines, Poland doing a deal with China for the SinoVac vaccine and Czeck republik and Slovakia looking to Russia for supplies of the Sputnik vaccine.


----------



## tomdublin

Generally not a fan of Russia's government but regarding Covid vaccines they have landed quite a PR coup.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Confusion over Russia's EU vaccine approval bid could be result of misdirected application
					

Russia's submission of its Sputnik V vaccine for approval by the European Union's medicines regulator appears to have been sent to the wrong agency, according to a Russian document and a clarification of the application process by the regulator.




					www.reuters.com
				




If people are wondering why the EMA haven't approved Sputnik V yet it would appear that the Russians sent the information to the wrong agency. 
That's been corrected now and the EMA are conducting a rolling review, if approved its thought that 50m doses will be available by June.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Some US bishops discourage Catholics from getting Johnson & Johnson vaccine if others are available
					

As officials and health experts race to get Americans vaccinated against Covid-19, some Catholic bishops have weighed in to discourage Church members from getting the latest, single-shot vaccine from Johnson & Johnson when alternatives are available.




					www.cnn.com
				




This just shows some of the difficulties in trying to convince people to get vaccinated. 
Of course the Pope has already said that there is no moral issues in getting any vaccine.


----------



## Wahaay

So a couple of weeks ago the Government admitted there would be a shortfall in AZ vaccine doses but that wouldn't affect the roll out.
Last week's target was 100,000 (Missed by 18,000).
This week's target of 92,000 will be missed by a lot, apparently.
Next week's target has been set for 84,000
Instead of Ireland’s vaccination programme being steadily increased as promised it seems targets are being reduced to a level where even they’re not expected to be met.
Remember, just 10 days ago the Taoiseach confidently told us that Ireland would administer 1.25 million vaccines “by the end of March”.
https://merrionstreet.ie/en/news-ro..._resilience_recovery_2021_the_path_ahead.html

The reality is  Ireland is hamstrung by the EU's ham-fisted vaccine procurement and only now is our shambolic Health Minister talking about sourcing extra vaccine doses outside of our loyalty to the EU - something that Germany managed with 30 milllion does sourced independently last year.
My GP is apoplectic about the lack of information and guidance he has received so far.
We are STILL struggling to vaccinate over-85s when across the water people in their early 50s are being jabbed in high numbers.
Enough of the excuses.
The country's vaccine roll-out is inexescusable.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Wahaay said:


> So a couple of weeks ago the Government admitted there would be a shortfall in AZ vaccine doses but that wouldn't affect the roll out.
> Last week's target was 100,000 (Missed by 18,000).
> This week's target of 92,000 will be missed by a lot, apparently.
> Next week's target has been set for 84,000
> Instead of Ireland’s vaccination programme being steadily increased as promised it seems targets are being reduced to a level where even they’re not expected to be met.
> Remember, just 10 days ago the Taoiseach confidently told us that Ireland would administer 1.25 million vaccines “by the end of March”.
> https://merrionstreet.ie/en/news-ro..._resilience_recovery_2021_the_path_ahead.html
> 
> The reality is  Ireland is hamstrung by the EU's ham-fisted vaccine procurement and only now is our shambolic Health Minister talking about sourcing extra vaccine doses outside of our loyalty to the EU - something that Germany managed with 30 milllion does sourced independently last year.
> My GP is apoplectic about the lack of information and guidance he has received so far.
> We are STILL struggling to vaccinate over-85s when across the water people in their early 50s are being jabbed in high numbers.
> Enough of the excuses.
> The country's vaccine roll-out is inexescusable.


Well you're frustration is shared, but it must also be recognised that it's very difficult to stick to forecasts when suppliers let you down and that supplier is Astrazeneca. It hasn't kept to the terms of the contract and before anyone says the EU was late in negotiations the EU signed the contract a day after the UK.

Astrazeneca informed the HSE very late 2 weeks ago saying the delivery will be less for last week, it was 0 and the assurances they gave that the shortfall would be made up was also a lie.

I think the entire population is frustrated, and rightly so but its not 100% the government's fault or the EU .

The EU tried to hold AZs hand in the fire a few weeks ago regarding the contract, a contract that is worded exactly as the UKs contract but here we are . Ireland is 100k doses down .

Personally I would prefer the government to shut up with future vaccinations numbers but politicians can't shut up.

We only got our first doses on the 26th of December and probably will have 500,000 doses administered by Sunday???.??. That's not what people want or expected but that's the situation and until supply grows its going to be very slow.


----------



## Wahaay

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Well you're frustration is shared, but it must also be recognised that it's very difficult to stick to forecasts when suppliers let you down and that supplier is Astrazeneca. It hasn't kept to the terms of the contract and before anyone says the EU was late in negotiations the EU signed the contract a day after the UK.
> 
> Astrazeneca informed the HSE very late 2 weeks ago saying the delivery will be less for last week, it was 0 and the assurances they gave that the shortfall would be made up was also a lie.
> 
> I think the entire population is frustrated, and rightly so but its not 100% the government's fault or the EU .
> 
> The EU tried to hold AZs hand in the fire a few weeks ago regarding the contract, a contract that is worded exactly as the UKs contract but here we are . Ireland is 100k doses down .
> 
> Personally I would prefer the government to shut up with future vaccinations numbers but politicians can't shut up.
> 
> We only got our first doses on the 26th of December and probably will have 500,000 doses administered by Sunday???.??. That's not what people want or expected but that's the situation and until supply grows its going to be very slow.



Apart from wasting months trying to negotiate a better price on a vaccine that was being sold at cost price anyway by AZ the EU failed to plan for the inevitable delays that had been flagged up and which the UK had seen from the beginning.
If you really want to know how badly the EU performed in its vaccine procurement and how poorly it negotiated contracts with AZ may I suggest you read this blogpost from the archest of arch-EU fanatics Guy Verhofstadt.








						Two contracts, lots of questions and not nearly enough vaccines…
					

The devil is in the detail. The revelation of the contract between AstraZeneca and the UK yesterday is ample proof of that wisdom.




					guyverhofstadt.medium.com
				




Worse than that this current government is only NOW begining to look around the empty vaccine supermarket shelves of the world to see if they can find a few phials that have dropped through the cracks.
It has put its blind loyalty towards the EU before the welfare of its own citizens - there are at least half a dozen other EU states that have spent weeks pursuing their own independent course on vaccines because of Brussels' incompetence.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Wahaay said:


> Apart from wasting months trying to negotiate a better price on a vaccine that was being sold at cost price anyway by AZ the EU failed to plan for the inevitable delays that had been flagged up and which the UK had seen from the beginning.
> If you really want to know how badly the EU performed in its vaccine procurement and how poorly it negotiated contracts with AZ may I suggest you read this blogpost from the archest of arch-EU fanatics Guy Verhofstadt.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Two contracts, lots of questions and not nearly enough vaccines…
> 
> 
> The devil is in the detail. The revelation of the contract between AstraZeneca and the UK yesterday is ample proof of that wisdom.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> guyverhofstadt.medium.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Worse than that this current government is only NOW begining to look around the empty vaccine supermarket shelves of the world to see if they can find a few phials that have dropped through the cracks.
> It has put its blind loyalty towards the EU before the welfare of its own citizens - there are at least half a dozen other EU states that have spent weeks pursuing their own independent course on vaccines because of Brussels' incompetence.


Thanks for the link......as Verhofstadt says there are questions for both the EU and Astrazeneca. 
However, it would have been clear to Astrazeneca that they would not be able to fulfil the EU contract with the terms it included, ie that deliveries would be made from its entire production capacity including the UK, but it decided to proceed anyway and take millions of Euro.

The EU would have negotiated in good faith and obviously didn't know the clauses in the UK contract. Perhaps they are guilty of naivety. 

It's strange that the UK signed a day after the EU eventough they were negotiating months ahead of the EU.

Anyway it is what it is.


----------



## odyssey06

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Thanks for the link......as Verhofstadt says there are questions for both the EU and Astrazeneca.
> However, it would have been clear to Astrazeneca that they would not be able to fulfil the EU contract with the terms it included, ie that deliveries would be made from its entire production capacity including the UK, but it decided to proceed anyway and take millions of Euro.
> 
> The EU would have negotiated in good faith and obviously didn't know the clauses in the UK contract. Perhaps they are guilty of naivety.
> 
> It's strange that the UK signed a day after the EU eventough they were negotiating months ahead of the EU.
> 
> Anyway it is what it is.


At the same time we have major EU countries - Germany & France - which appear to have have significant quantities of AZ vaccines they've been sitting on for some time.


----------



## johnwilliams

odyssey06 "At the same time we have major EU countries - Germany & France - which appear to have have significant quantities of AZ vaccines they've been sitting on for some time"
why have they not been giving these vaccines to their own population (surely their own  citizens are up in arms over this?)
mentioned above in thread about numbers vaccinated weekly  thats great . but i mentioned in another thread that i would like if they would tell us how many remain to be vaccinated at  each level so we can tell how close we are getting  to next level . those numbers mean very little if dealing with infinity


----------



## odyssey06

johnwilliams said:


> odyssey06 "At the same time we have major EU countries - Germany & France - which appear to have have significant quantities of AZ vaccines they've been sitting on for some time"
> why have they not been giving these vaccines to their own population (surely their own  citizens are up in arms over this?)
> mentioned above in thread about numbers vaccinated weekly  thats great . but i mentioned in another thread that i would like if they would tell us how many remain to be vaccinated at  each level so we can tell how close we are getting  to next level . those numbers mean very little if dealing with infinity


Well the President of France declared the vaccine "quasi-effective" and publicly destroyed its credibility in the eyes of many French citizens.
As of 25th February 80% of AZ vaccines delivered to EU countries were unused.
Yet the EU is trying to haul AZ over the coals in courts over their failure to honour the contract?
All the while most of the life saving vaccine delivered so far sits unused?

Had French pharma company Sanofi developed a viable vaccine, there is zero chance the President of France would have declared it quasi-effective even if it had exactly the same supporting data as the AZ vaccine.
EU has been a shambles on this virus from the outset.









						Revealed: four in five Oxford Covid jabs delivered to EU not yet used
					

Guardian finding comes as Angela Merkel talks of vaccine’s ‘acceptance problem’




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

johnwilliams said:


> odyssey06 "At the same time we have major EU countries - Germany & France - which appear to have have significant quantities of AZ vaccines they've been sitting on for some time"
> why have they not been giving these vaccines to their own population (surely their own  citizens are up in arms over this?)
> mentioned above in thread about numbers vaccinated weekly  thats great . but i mentioned in another thread that i would like if they would tell us how many remain to be vaccinated at  each level so we can tell how close we are getting  to next level . those numbers mean very little if dealing with infinity


Roughly 3.2m remain to be vaccinated excluding children and pregnant women of 1.2 . But I'll try and get meaningful figures together, frankly I don't think the HSE has population for each category as I thought they were on the ECDC website but I'm mistaken.

Sorry quoted wrong post ......reply for John


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

odyssey06 said:


> Well the President of France declared the vaccine "quasi-effective" and publicly destroyed its credibility in the eyes of many French citizens.
> As of 25th February 80% of AZ vaccines delivered to EU countries were unused.
> Yet the EU is trying to haul AZ over the coals in courts over their failure to honour the contract?
> All the while most of the life saving vaccine delivered so far sits unused?
> 
> Had French pharma company Sanofi developed a viable vaccine, there is zero chance the President of France would have declared it quasi-effective even if it had exactly the same supporting data as the AZ vaccine.
> EU has been a shambles on this virus from the outset.
> 
> unfurl="true"]https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/feb/25/acceptance-problem-as-most-oxford-covid-jabs-delivered-to-eu-not-yet-used


Absolutely.....


----------



## Wahaay

odyssey06 said:


> Well the President of France declared the vaccine "quasi-effective" and publicly destroyed its credibility in the eyes of many French citizens.
> As of 25th February 80% of AZ vaccines delivered to EU countries were unused.
> Yet the EU is trying to haul AZ over the coals in courts over their failure to honour the contract?
> All the while most of the life saving vaccine delivered so far sits unused?
> 
> Had French pharma company Sanofi developed a viable vaccine, there is zero chance the President of France would have declared it quasi-effective even if it had exactly the same supporting data as the AZ vaccine.
> EU has been a shambles on this virus from the outset.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Revealed: four in five Oxford Covid jabs delivered to EU not yet used
> 
> 
> Guardian finding comes as Angela Merkel talks of vaccine’s ‘acceptance problem’
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com



It's actually worse than that.
Macron described it as quasi-*ineffective*, thereby rubbishing the vaccine completely resulting in huge numbers of unused doses.
Looking at this morning's papers the Taoiseach is clearly softening up Ireland to expect far worse figures for March than predicted.
Unless he ups the vaccine game in the second quarter there's going to be a lot of disgruntled people watching the Brits heading off in their thousands to get some early summer sun in the Med.


----------



## Laramie

I think everyone is totally frustrated by the rollout of vaccinations.  The big announcements by government.......then these expectations are not met. This upsets everyone.  Hearing about vaccines being delivered but not enough syringes. Hearing that Sneem in Kerry got a huge delivery but other places got nothing. Some doctors still waiting to be contacted.....

We want this sorted by the autumn.  Please do not tell us that this will extend in to 2022.


----------



## joe sod

Wahaay said:


> Macron described it as quasi-*ineffective*, thereby rubbishing the vaccine completely resulting in huge numbers of unused doses.


and they say Trump was the master of fake news looks like Macron learned a few lessons from him, Vaccine nationalism is everywhere now, could not Michael Martin go to Macron and get those doses now ?


----------



## Laramie

joe sod said:


> could not Michael Martin go to Macron and get those doses now ?




I have to say that I thought Enda Kenny was bad.....but.....Michael Martin is worse.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

joe sod said:


> could not Michael Martin go to Macron and get those doses now ?


No, they are still going to use them. They were simply storing them until they were vaccinating the under 65s and like us they probably are using a percentage on healthcare workers.


----------



## tomdublin

I think the government still somehow sees this mainly as a question of managing public expectations rather than of increasing actual performance.  The first vaccine delivery in late December lingered in storage for a week because HSE staff didn't seem to want to disrupt their extended Christmas break.  The resulting public outcry made the gov speed things up but with at best reluctant cooperation from the HSE.  As for the government's refusal to even contemplate going outside the EU system to procure additional vaccine supplies, there is no rational explanation for it other than that it would require additional effort from various bureaucratic structures.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

tomdublin said:


> The first vaccine delivery in late December lingered in storage for a week because HSE staff didn't seem to want to disrupt their extended Christmas break.


Well the figures don't support that, 9750 vaccines were received on the 26th of December from Pfizer and 2100 were given to frontline staff in various hospitals around the country from the 28th of December. These needed to be shipped so I can't see how they were held in storage or HSE staff weren't working to ensure all back office work was carried out.

Additionally a further 31200 was received in the week upto 3rd of January with a further 40950 the week starting the 4th of January which was the week the rollout to care homes began and 48393 first doses were administered to care homes and frontline workers. Obviously vaccines had to be sent to care homes around the country.

The idea that we should secure other supplies is nonsense to be honest, no country is going to give away vaccines when they are struggling with supplies themselves. 
Securing other vaccines like Sputnik V or Sinochem is possible but neither of these vaccines are approved by the regulators, and I don't think unapproved vaccines should be used or purchased. 

I'm certainly not defending the rollout and feel that things could have been done a lot better, having said that vaccinating people simply isn't getting vaccines and sticking it into people there are a slew of things that need to be done in the background. 

The government needs to stop with the "announcements " of future vaccinations and simply get on with this , they and the HSE were very slow in getting actual information out and this resulted in all sorts opinions being formed.

If people want to know the facts and figures regarding the rollout here or all over Europe the information is freely available, but its easier to moan.


----------



## Sunny

Paul O Mahoney said:


> If people want to know the facts and figures regarding the rollout here or all over Europe the information is freely available, but its easier to moan.



Except the figures aren't available.  We don't know details about contractual delivery schedules because apparently it is commercially sensitive. All we get are vague figures about 1m vaccines due in April. 

Ireland does not report up to date information and there is even a footnote in the European reporting that there might be differences because of timing issues. Simply because as the HSE admit, they still don't have a properly functioning reporting system. 

We still don't have details about the numbers in each cohort, what % has been vaccinated and who is left. I know of frontline healthcare staff still waiting for their first dose yet a 21 year old office worker in the same hospital received one. Its almost the middle of March. 

We are moving on to vaccinating people with underlying conditions. And it turns out that for the past year, nobody considered that we will need a way to identify these people so we are now scrambling to identify people involved so we actually have no accurate idea of the size of the cohort.

We don't know how many healthcare workers are still waiting for a vaccine. How many have refused to take one. Same with nursing homes. Same with over 80's. We are giving total administered doses but that is completely meaningless. I have yet to see any useful breakdown. 

We have all over 70' vaccinated in one rural village while people over 85 are waiting in other locations. 

We have GP's saying they are not being given proper notice or being communicated with. 

It is plainly obvious that they are using the vaccines as they get them but the idea that there is detailed useful information about the rollout exists is just fanciful.


----------



## Wahaay

The HSE says it " hopes " to have all over-70s vaccinated by mid-May.
The NHS says it " expects " every adult in the UK to have received at least one vaccine dose by the end of May.

Vaccine doses administered per 100 population:
UK 33.9
Ireland 9.33
EU    8.7

These figures are an embarrassment for this country and the EU it outsourced its vaccination procurement programme to.


----------



## tomdublin

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Securing other vaccines like Sputnik V or Sinochem is possible but neither of these vaccines are approved by the regulators, and I don't think unapproved vaccines should be used or purchased.


Several other (especially smaller) EU member states are currently negotiating purchase of additional vaccines pending their regulatory approval.  Contracts for vaccines currently used in the EU likewise were negotiated before their approval by the EMA.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Sunny said:


> Except the figures aren't available.  We don't know details about contractual delivery schedules because apparently it is commercially sensitive. All we get are vague figures about 1m vaccines due in April.
> 
> Ireland does not report up to date information and there is even a footnote in the European reporting that there might be differences because of timing issues. Simply because as the HSE admit, they still don't have a properly functioning reporting system.
> 
> We still don't have details about the numbers in each cohort, what % has been vaccinated and who is left. I know of frontline healthcare staff still waiting for their first dose yet a 21 year old office worker in the same hospital received one. Its almost the middle of March.
> 
> We are moving on to vaccinating people with underlying conditions. And it turns out that for the past year, nobody considered that we will need a way to identify these people so we are now scrambling to identify people involved so we actually have no accurate idea of the size of the cohort.
> 
> We don't know how many healthcare workers are still waiting for a vaccine. How many have refused to take one. Same with nursing homes. Same with over 80's. We are giving total administered doses but that is completely meaningless. I have yet to see any useful breakdown.
> 
> We have all over 70' vaccinated in one rural village while people over 85 are waiting in other locations.
> 
> We have GP's saying they are not being given proper notice or being communicated with.
> 
> It is plainly obvious that they are using the vaccines as they get them but the idea that there is detailed useful information about the rollout exists is just fanciful.


There are many issues, I'm the first to admit that but there is data and its not difficult to get a broad view ( within 95% accuracy of what is going on. 

You might want real time data but I just can't see how that would be achieved given the infrastructure that is being used.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

tomdublin said:


> Several other (especially smaller) EU member states are currently negotiating purchase of additional vaccines pending their regulatory approval.  Contracts for vaccines currently used in the EU likewise were negotiated before their approval by the EMA.


Again I know that and what if its not approved? If a contract was negotiated and the vaccine wasn't approved what do you think the masses would say? 

Yes but Pfizer/BioNTech, Moderna AZ etc are providing data regularly for months and in July initial results from trials were very encouraging thus contracts were signed in August September,have China or Russia shared anything in the same way? 

I want those vaccines approved and distributed but risk also has to be managed.


----------



## tomdublin

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Again I know that and what if its not approved? If a contract was negotiated and the vaccine wasn't approved what do you think the masses would say?


I don't know this for sure but I'd imagine these contracts have a subject to approval clause.  Even if not, the EU would have taken the same risk when procuring AZ & Pfizer before these had been approved.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

tomdublin said:


> I don't know this for sure but I'd imagine these contracts have a subject to approval clause.  Even if not, the EU would have taken the same risk when procuring AZ & Pfizer before these had been approved.


You missed the important point that Pfizer AZ etc were in constant touch and giving data to regulatory bodies from the time Stage 2 studies were started on a monthly basis, so regulators were aware of what was going on in detail never before seen.

That mitigated the risk.


----------



## EasilyAmused

AFAIK Ireland has a higher percentage of people *fully vaccinated* that the U.K.  



Wahaay said:


> Vaccine doses administered per 100 population:
> UK 33.9
> Ireland 9.33



Also...
Covid deaths  per 1,000,000 population:
UK 1,826
Ireland 888

More people die from COVID in the U.K. every eight hours that died in total in N.Z.


----------



## Wahaay

EasilyAmused said:


> AFAIK Ireland has a higher percentage of people *fully vaccinated* that the U.K.
> 
> 
> 
> Also...
> Covid deaths  per 1,000,000 population:
> UK 1,826
> Ireland 888
> 
> More people die from COVID in the U.K. every eight hours that died in total in N.Z.



Every single data study, supported by the EMA and WHO, has backed the UK's initial policy decision to delay the second vaccine dose by up to nine weeks in order to vaccinatate the elderly and vulnerable with a first dose that prevents death or admission to hospital by more than 90% within three weeks of its delivery.
This idea that double-dosing the population is better than delaying the second dose is part of the disinformation spread by countries such as Germany and France to deflect attention from their appalling roll-out stats and they have both done dramatic U-turns on it.
I'm surprised you're still flogging that dead horse long after the stable door has been closed ...
And NZ is two small sparsely-populated mainly rural islands cut off from the rest of the world by their remote location whereas the UK is a heavily-populated,mainly urban global transport hub.
It's like comparing Ireland to the Isle of Man which has essentially eradictad Covid.


----------



## Wahaay

Paul O Mahoney said:


> There are many issues, I'm the first to admit that but there is data and its not difficult to get a broad view ( within 95% accuracy of what is going on.
> 
> You might want real time data but I just can't see how that would be achieved given the infrastructure that is being used.



The official Irish Covid data hub has spent most of the roll-out updating vaccination figures weekly and even today the latest results are only available from Thursday.
If vaccine distribution and delivery is computerised which Gold help us they surely must be the collated results should be available daily at the press of a computer key as they are in the UK.


----------



## EasilyAmused

Vietnam has a population of almost 100,000,000.  The population of Ho Chi Minh City is almost 9,000,000.
There have been 35 Covid deaths. 

U.K. has a population of almost 60,000,000.  The population of London is almost 9,000,000.
There have been 125,000 Covid deaths. 

The U.K.’s handling of Covid has been a calamity. 
1,826 Covid deaths per million population. 
The *fourth worse* record on the planet. And they’re not that far behind Slovenia. A bronze-tinted lead medal by the end of March awaits. 

Personally, I’d prefer to be alive and waiting for a vaccine along with my peers, than dead and buried with my peers half vaccinated.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Wahaay said:


> The official Irish Covid data hub has spent most of the roll-out updating vaccination figures weekly and even today the latest results are only available from Thursday.
> If vaccine distribution and delivery is computerised which Gold help us they surely must be the collated results should be available daily at the press of a computer key as they are in the UK.


There are daily figures available from the HSE website and they go back to February. 
The UK system is a better system thats accepted.


----------



## odyssey06

EasilyAmused said:


> Vietnam has a population of almost 100,000,000.  The population of Ho Chi Minh City is almost 9,000,000.
> There have been 35 Covid deaths.
> 
> U.K. has a population of almost 60,000,000.  The population of London is almost 9,000,000.
> There have been 125,000 Covid deaths.
> 
> The U.K.’s handling of Covid has been a calamity.
> 1,826 Covid deaths per million population.
> The *fourth worse* record on the planet. And they’re not that far behind Slovenia. A bronze-tinted lead medal by the end of March awaits.
> 
> Personally, I’d prefer to be alive and waiting for a vaccine along with my peers, than dead and buried with my peers half vaccinated.


Unless you can explain how Vietnams low deaths are due to vaccination strategy I see zero relevance to the current discussion.

A country's strategy for one aspect of dealing with the virus can be good or bad.
They can be bad at and good at y.
The one thing tells us nothing about the other.

Either delaying the second vaccine makes sense or it doesnt.


----------



## Wahaay

EasilyAmused said:


> Personally, I’d prefer to be alive and waiting for a vaccine along with my peers, than dead and buried with my peers half vaccinated.



I suppose it depends on one's age.
At mine I think I'd rather have a single dose and a 90+% less chance of dying for the next few months as well as the prospect of being able to travel, meet my family and go back to work.
Rather than wait for an as yet unspecified date as to when any of these things might happen.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Wahaay said:


> I suppose it depends on one's age.
> At mine I think I'd rather have a single dose and a 90+% less chance of dying for the next few months as well as the prospect of being able to travel, meet my family and go back to work.
> Rather than wait for an as yet unspecified date as to when any of these things might happen.


What vaccine offers 90% less chance of dying or allowing travel?
Studies so far have said that a single dose of most gives anything over 70% with the second dose getting 90% plus.

If a single dose gave 90+% effectiveness there'd be no need for a second dose which is clearly not happening.


----------



## Wahaay

Paul O Mahoney said:


> What vaccine offers 90% less chance of dying or allowing travel?
> Studies so far have said that a single dose of most gives anything over 70% with the second dose getting 90% plus.
> 
> If a single dose gave 90+% effectiveness there'd be no need for a second dose which is clearly not happening.


It was the results of a Scottish survey published a couple of weeks ago.
Also cited by Germany and France as their reason for reversing their previous opposition to the policy of a delayed second dose.
Covered extensively in the Irish media at the time.
Ironically the much-maligned AZ jab performed even better than the previous gold standard Pfizer.









						Oxford vaccine more effective than Pfizer jab, new figures show
					

A single shot of either the Oxford-AstraZeneca or Pfizer jab cuts the chance of needing hospital treatment by more than 90 per cent, 'real world' results from the NHS show.




					www.dailymail.co.uk


----------



## Conan

I’m really sick of listening to Pearse Doherty criticising the roll-out as if it was a complete shambles. Clearly in the Narnia-world of opposition politics, nothing ever goes wrong, no delays, no hiccups, no glitches. It must be wonderful to live in such a fairytale world (though it seems to work less well in NI where SF are in power?).
This is a roll-out of a programme unprecedented in recent times. Hardly surprising that a few GPs didn’t get the vaccine delivered on time. Pearse seems to think that the Government can vaccinate people with vaccines that haven’t yet arrived.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Wahaay said:


> It was the results of a Scottish survey published a couple of weeks ago.
> Also cited by Germany and France as their reason for reversing their previous opposition to the policy of a delayed second dose.
> Covered extensively in the Irish media at the time.
> Ironically the much-maligned AZ jab performed even better than the previous gold standard Pfizer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oxford vaccine more effective than Pfizer jab, new figures show
> 
> 
> A single shot of either the Oxford-AstraZeneca or Pfizer jab cuts the chance of needing hospital treatment by more than 90 per cent, 'real world' results from the NHS show.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dailymail.co.uk


It reduces hospitalisation by 90%


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Conan said:


> I’m really sick of listening to Pearse Doherty criticising the roll-out as if it was a complete shambles. Clearly in the Narnia-world of opposition politics, nothing ever goes wrong, no delays, no hiccups, no glitches. It must be wonderful to live in such a fairytale world (though it seems to work less well in NI where SF are in power?).
> This is a roll-out of a programme unprecedented in recent times. Hardly surprising that a few GPs didn’t get the vaccine delivered on time. Pearse seems to think that the Government can vaccinate people with vaccines that haven’t yet arrived.


It's not just Pearce many think it's simply inject the vaccine and everything is dandy.


----------



## Wahaay

Paul O Mahoney said:


> It reduces hospitalisation by 90%


The Edinburgh University survey found that by four weeks the Pfizer and Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccines cut the risk of hospitalisation from Covid19 by up to 85 per cent and 94 per cent, respectively.
As virtually everyone who dies from Covid-19 does so in hospital if the rate of hospitalisation is reduced by more than 90% one would assume one's chances of dying are also reduced by that amount.
The number of over-85s admitted to hospital in Scotland with C-19 has dropped to virtually zero.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Wahaay said:


> The Edinburgh University survey found that by four weeks the Pfizer and Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccines cut the risk of hospitalisation from Covid19 by up to 85 per cent and 94 per cent, respectively.
> As virtually everyone who dies from Covid-19 does so in hospital if the rate of hospitalisation is reduced by more than 90% one would assume one's chances of dying are also reduced by that amount.
> The number of over-85s admitted to hospital in Scotland with C-19 has dropped to virtually zero.


I read the article and to assume that a reduction in hospitalisation reduces deaths by the same amount is tenuous at best.
The article, and this is a Daily Mail article, does say that deaths reduced by 40% in the over 75s which is great but it doesn't say anything about over 85 deaths specifically. 
It certainly doesn't say that there was a 90% reduction in deaths of any cohort.

Obviously reducing hospitalisation is a great result and vaccines are making an impact, even here it has been said that the reduction in infections and hospitalisation in the elderly is probably due to vaccinating the elderly.

We've gone off topic and frankly what happens in the UK or elsewhere doesn't really interest me unless is proper scientific evidence.


----------



## Wahaay

Paul O Mahoney said:


> I read the article and to assume that a reduction in hospitalisation reduces deaths by the same amount is tenuous at best.
> The article, and this is a Daily Mail article, does say that deaths reduced by 40% in the over 75s which is great but it doesn't say anything about over 85 deaths specifically.
> It certainly doesn't say that there was a 90% reduction in deaths of any cohort.
> 
> Obviously reducing hospitalisation is a great result and vaccines are making an impact, even here it has been said that the reduction in infections and hospitalisation in the elderly is probably due to vaccinating the elderly.
> 
> We've gone off topic and frankly what happens in the UK or elsewhere doesn't really interest me unless is proper scientific evidence.



What is happening in the UK, Israel and elsewhere is real-time scientific evidence.
Vaccines, even after a single dose, are dramatically reducing hospital admissions and therefore deaths.
Results from the Scottish NHS are prompting previously sceptical governments such as France and Germany to change their policies on the age groups being vaxxed and the delay between first and second jabs.
This is clear scientific evidence not being disputed by anyone except the more bonkers anti-vaxxers.
As for delays, that's really no-one elses's fault except the EU.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Wahaay said:


> What is happening in the UK, Israel and elsewhere is real-time scientific evidence.
> Vaccines, even after a single dose, are dramatically reducing hospital admissions and therefore deaths.
> Results from the Scottish NHS are prompting previously sceptical governments such as France and Germany to change their policies on the age groups being vaxxed and the delay between first and second jabs.
> This is clear scientific evidence not being disputed by anyone except the more bonkers anti-vaxxers.
> As for delays, that's really no-one elses's fault except the EU.


Again all this is widely known and understood what I was questioning was your assertion that 90% reduction in hospitalisation equated to 90% reduction in deaths particularly in the elderly. 
That's what you stated and the link you supplied didn't say that.


----------



## Wahaay

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Again all this is widely known and understood what I was questioning was your assertion that 90% reduction in hospitalisation equated to 90% reduction in deaths particularly in the elderly.
> That's what you stated and the link you supplied didn't say that.



So you think large numbers of people are dying from Coronavirus at home ?


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Wahaay said:


> So you think large numbers of people are dying from Coronavirus at home ?


No


----------



## Wahaay

Paul O Mahoney said:


> No


Ergo, if the risk of hospitalisation is reduced by more than 90% on the first dose of a vaccine your chances of dying or getting seriously ill enough to warrant hospitalisation are therefore reduced accordingly.
This was the finding from the Scottish NHS survey with both Pfizer and AZ showing superb immunity.


----------



## joe sod

Are the government preparing the ground for asking the UK for spare vaccines. On Sunday Paul Reid said they would take vaccines from wherever they could get them , then Simon Harris more or less said the same thing yesterday. I'd say there is a much higher likelihood of them asking the UK for assistance than authorising the sputnik vaccines even if the ema allows it


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

joe sod said:


> Are the government preparing the ground for asking the UK for spare vaccines. On Sunday Paul Reid said they would take vaccines from wherever they could get them , then Simon Harris more or less said the same thing yesterday. I'd say there is a much higher likelihood of them asking the UK for assistance than authorising the sputnik vaccines even if the ema allows it


Well Martin has said today that the UK doesn't have any spare vaccines.

No country is going to be sending vaccines to other countries when there are so many issues surrounding supply.

It's still not known if there will be a need for booster vaccines or if getting a covid vaccine will become an annual event.

If the producers especially Astrazeneca/Moderna simply got their production to what they said it would be it would be a better solution.

Astrazeneca are meant to supply 40m (400000 for us) doses to the EU members by the end of March,  the original was 90m.
 I read that up to the 5th of March only 10.7m were delivered it doesn't seem they can fulfil the new target.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

J&J facing supply issues of Covid vaccine to EU
					

Johnson & Johnson has told the European Union it is facing supply issues that may complicate plans to deliver 55 million doses of its Covid-19 vaccine to the bloc in the second quarter of the year, an EU official has said.




					www.rte.ie
				




And now this.


----------



## joe sod

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Well Martin has said today that the UK doesn't have any spare vaccines.


Yes I saw that but sure give me some credit for predicting government actions from their spin, I knew something was in the air when they started suggesting getting vaccines from the UK, before that it was a No No


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

joe sod said:


> Yes I saw that but sure give me some credit for predicting government actions from their spin, I knew something was in the air when they started suggesting getting vaccines from the UK, before that it was a No No


Like everything Joe with MM he likes to be seen to be trying. 
But more importantly he said he knew what the answer would be , so why ask?


----------



## Tuscany

Wahaay said:


> So you think large numbers of people are dying from Coronavirus at home ?


Likely that some, probably quite a large number, who died in nursing homes and other residential settings did so without ever being hospitalised.


----------



## tomdublin

joe sod said:


> I'd say there is a much higher likelihood of them asking the UK for assistance than authorising the sputnik vaccines even if the ema allows it


If the EMA authorized Sputnik yet the Irish government still refused to use it and instead chose to leave large segments of the population unvaccinated for months this would be unconscionable IMO.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

tomdublin said:


> If the EMA authorized Sputnik yet the Irish government still refused to use it and instead chose to leave large segments of the population unvaccinated for months this would be unconscionable IMO.


If it is authorised, and that's going to be a few months from now, I can't see the EU ordering a huge amount if any and that would allow individual countries to buy independently. 

If and this is a big If the other producers get the finger out and fulfil contract quantity there maybe no reason to buy it in great quantities


----------



## Merowig

Paul O Mahoney said:


> No country is going to be sending vaccines to other countries when there are so many issues surrounding supply.



Not true

Romania is donating 200,000 doses to Moldova coming from the EU allocated quota to Romania








						Moldova Receives First COVID-19 Shots From Romania
					

Romania delivered the first batch of AstraZeneca's COVID-19 shots to Moldova on February 27, enabling one of Europe’s poorest countries to begin its vaccination campaign next week.




					www.rferl.org
				




India is giving millions of free vaccine doses to at least  six countries








						India to give free vaccine doses to 6 countries
					

Certain amount of Covaxin doses will be given free of cost by India as a goodwill gesture to 6 countries.




					economictimes.indiatimes.com
				











						Free vaccines and India’s humanitarian diplomacy
					

India is leveraging its manufacturing heft by embarking on humanitarian diplomacy — the supply of free vaccines to countries in its extended neighborhood.




					www.japantimes.co.jp
				




Israel is giving vaccine doses to the Czech republic, Honduras, Guatemala, the Palestinians and other countries are also queuing up
e.g. 
Israel, Denmark and Austria have also agreed to co-develop and produce vaccines here.

The United Arab Emirates send vaccines to Egypt, the Seychelles and the Palestinians, China is donating to Arab countries as well


----------



## odyssey06

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Well Martin has said today that the UK doesn't have any spare vaccines.
> 
> No country is going to be sending vaccines to other countries when there are so many issues surrounding supply.
> 
> It's still not known if there will be a need for booster vaccines or if getting a covid vaccine will become an annual event.
> 
> If the producers especially Astrazeneca/Moderna simply got their production to what they said it would be it would be a better solution.
> 
> Astrazeneca are meant to supply 40m (400000 for us) doses to the EU members by the end of March,  the original was 90m.
> I read that up to the 5th of March only 10.7m were delivered it doesn't seem they can fulfil the new target.


I wouldn't go to Germany or France and ask them to give us the vaccines with nothing in return.
I'd ask for them to give us X vaccines which we will use now and which we will refund with X vaccines from future supply.
Assuming they aren't going to use the vaccines in the short term and we are.

In some good news, 
IRELAND IS TO receive an additional 46,500 Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine doses in March under the EU procurement framework, Taoiseach Micheál Martin has confirmed... it comes as the EU Commission confirmed this morning that the bloc had secured an additional four million doses of the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine to be distributed across EU states over the next two weeks. 









						Ireland to receive 46,500 additional Pfizer doses this month, Taoiseach confirms
					

“When they get here, they will be administered quickly,” the Taoiseach said.




					www.thejournal.ie


----------



## Leo

Paul O Mahoney said:


> But more importantly he said he knew what the answer would be , so why ask?



Because the opposition would have continued to beat him up over it to try score a few easy points even thought they also knew what the answer would be.


----------



## Merowig

Btw Germany has 4,334,000  doses stored / unused so far - they try to ramp up distribution.
Israel received over 100,000 doses of Moderna which are all put into storage for the time being - the attitude is that it is not worth yet to start distributing a second different vaccine while the Pfizer deliveries are rolling in fine.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

odyssey06 said:


> I wouldn't go to Germany or France and ask them to give us the vaccines with nothing in return.
> I'd ask for them to give us X vaccines which we will use now and which we will refund with X vaccines from future supply.
> Assuming they aren't going to use the vaccines in the short term and we are.
> 
> In some good news,
> IRELAND IS TO receive an additional 46,500 Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine doses in March under the EU procurement framework, Taoiseach Micheál Martin has confirmed... it comes as the EU Commission confirmed this morning that the bloc had secured an additional four million doses of the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine to be distributed across EU states over the next two weeks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ireland to receive 46,500 additional Pfizer doses this month, Taoiseach confirms
> 
> 
> “When they get here, they will be administered quickly,” the Taoiseach said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thejournal.ie


That is good news


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Merowig said:


> Btw Germany has 4,334,000  doses stored / unused so far - they try to ramp up distribution.
> Israel received over 100,000 doses of Moderna which are all put into storage for the time being - the attitude is that it is not worth yet to start distributing a second different vaccine while the Pfizer deliveries are rolling in fine.


Perhaps Israel could give those Moderna vaccines to the Palestinians.


----------



## Merowig

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Perhaps Israel could give those Moderna vaccines to the Palestinians.


Israel has already send a batch over and is now offering vaccination to 100k of Palestinians who are commuting to Israel and Israeli controlled territories for work.
The Palestinians declined twice last year Covid help from the UAE because it was flown in via Jerusalem/Israel.
And as per Oslo accords the Palestinians are alone responsible for their health system.
Up alone to Israel to decide whom, how and when they help.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Merowig said:


> Israel has already send a batch over and is now offering vaccination to 100k of Palestinians who are commuting to Israel and Israeli controlled territories for work.
> The Palestinians declined twice last year Covid help from the UAE because it was flown in via Jerusalem/Israel.
> And as per Oslo accords the Palestinians are alone responsible for their health system.
> Up alone to Israel to decide whom, how and when they help.


Suppose the Palestinians would have to agree to open an Embassy in Jerusalem like what the Czech have agreed to do.

It's curious that you laud the Israeli government in its apparent generosity by "donating"  vaccines yet when it comes to Palestine its up to themselves.


----------



## Merowig

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Suppose the Palestinians would have to agree to open an Embassy in Jerusalem like what the Czech have agreed to do.


If my neighbor is hating me and is acting badly towards me I would not rush to his help either. But I would help anyone wholeheartedly who is supporting/helping me - but that is just me.
There is no right to get help/assistence.
And as stated the Palestinians have rejected  twice Covid related help from the UAE only because it was transshipped via Israel - no reason to force then help  upon them - and they still get help in any case as stated above - Israel did a shipment and now offering it to further 100k.
No issue here at all.
I didn't see Ireland donating any vaccines yet to anyone or did you?


----------



## Purple

Merowig said:


> If my neighbor is hating me and is acting badly towards me I would not rush to his help either. But I would help anyone wholeheartedly who is supporting/helping me - but that is just me.
> There is no right to get help/assistence.
> And as stated the Palestinians have rejected  twice Covid related help from the UAE only because it was transshipped via Israel - no reason to force then help  upon them - and they still get help in any case as stated above - Israel did a shipment and now offering it to further 100k.
> No issue here at all.
> I didn't see Ireland donating any vaccines yet to anyone or did you?


While I agree that the Palestinians are their own worst enemy and their oppressive murdering government is utterly despicable they are effectively a vassal state of Israel, who is utterly dominant in the relationship so there is a moral duty on Israel to show a bit more generosity and moral decency. It's hard to know which government to dislike more.


----------



## Wahaay

Purple said:


> While I agree that the Palestinians are their own worst enemy and their oppressive murdering government is utterly despicable they are effectively a vassal state of Israel, who is utterly dominant in the relationship so there is a moral duty on Israel to show a bit more generosity and moral decency. It's hard to know which government to dislike more.



Well one is the only democracy in the Middle East and the other persecutes gays.
No brainer mate.


----------



## Purple

Wahaay said:


> Well one is the only democracy in the Middle East and the other persecutes gays.
> No brainer mate.


I agree on LGBT+ rights in Palestine, particularly in Gaza. Nothing sums up the simple-minded pseudo-liberalism of some in this country more than the LGBT+ group form the Labour Party marching in support of Palestine while waving Hamas flags. If Hamas got their hands on them they'd murder them.
That said Israel is doing more than enough oppression as well.
Like in most conflicts there's the bad guys on one side and the other bad guys on the other side.


----------



## tomdublin

Purple said:


> I agree on LGBT+ rights in Palestine, particularly in Gaza. Nothing sums up the simple-minded pseudo-liberalism of some in this country more than the LGBT+ group form the Labour Party marching in support of Palestine while waving Hamas flags. If Hamas got their hands on them they'd murder them.
> That said Israel is doing more than enough oppression as well.
> Like in most conflicts there's the bad guys on one side and the other bad guys on the other side.


Arguably Israeli policies play into the hands of groups such as Hamas by helping to radicalise a desperate Palestinian population.


----------



## Purple

tomdublin said:


> Arguably Israeli policies play into the hands of groups such as Hamas by helping to radicalise a desperate Palestinian population.


Yes, as groups like Hamas play into the hands of the extremists in Israel.


----------



## EasilyAmused

Here we are, the first anniversary of the pandemic. 
I suppose talk of vaccines didn’t really start ‘til April or May though?
Who’d have thought that by the time the first anniversary rolled around we’d have multiple vaccines?
Pfizer, Moderna, AstraZeneca, Sputnik V, J&J... and not to mention the four Chinese vaccines. 
I’m surprised we have them. 

But my biggest fear is as follows...
Experts now say that natural Covid-19 antibodies give about six months protection.
Suppose it’s the same with vaccines, six months. 

An older vulnerable person gets the jabs in Feb 2020. Then goes on abroad in September, somewhere the rollout is slow and there are many unvaccinated, say Belgium. 
Are they safe?


----------



## Wahaay

EasilyAmused said:


> But my biggest fear is as follows...
> Experts now say that natural Covid-19 antibodies give about six months protection.
> Suppose it’s the same with vaccines, six months.
> 
> An older vulnerable person gets the jabs in Feb 2020. Then goes on abroad in September, somewhere the rollout is slow and there are many unvaccinated, say Belgium.
> Are they safe?



The short answer is no-one really knows.
Real-time data from the NHS is only just beginning to reveal the actual efficacy of these jabs as they've only really been delivered on a large enough scale for 2-3 months.
But work is already underway in research into a booster shot later in the year, again starting with the elderly and vulnerable.
Realistically, however, there are still so many people to be vaxxed across Europe the question of how long the protection lasts for isn't the most immediate priority.


----------



## Leo

EasilyAmused said:


> An older vulnerable person gets the jabs in Feb 2020. Then goes on abroad in September, somewhere the rollout is slow and there are many unvaccinated, say Belgium.
> Are they safe?



Unless worldwide numbers drop to the point where Covid is no longer a major threat, booster shots may become necessary before travel. The first documented case of reinfection came in June last year, so there are still questions over how long an infection will grant someone immunity with the likelihood of significant variations from person to person. In the majority of reinfection cases though, symptoms were less severe. 

Perhaps a bigger concern with countries with low numbers vaccinated is the risk of newer variants emerging that are resistant to all current vaccines and we end up back at square one again.


----------



## EasilyAmused

Wahaay said:


> Realistically, however, there are still so many people to be vaxxed across Europe the question of how long the protection lasts for isn't the most immediate priority.



Still though, they should realise that there _may_ be a six month window. 

If someone is vulnerable and cautious and is vaccinated in February, better of travelling March to August then September onwards.


----------



## EasilyAmused

One advantage to being “at the back of the vaccine queue” is that the current vaccines are only made and tested against the “parent strain”. The vaccines being produced and rolled out in six months time or so are expected to be made and tested against the Kent, South African and Brazilian strains too. And possibly others.


----------



## Purple

Leo said:


> Perhaps a bigger concern with countries with low numbers vaccinated is the risk of newer variants emerging that are resistant to all current vaccines and we end up back at square one again.


Yes, that's the big risk. It shows that sharing the vaccine with poorer countries before we vaccinate our low risk population is not just morally the right thing to do but is actually in out medium term interest.


----------



## Leo

Purple said:


> It shows that sharing the vaccine with poorer countries before we vaccinate our low risk population is not just morally the right thing to do but is actually in out medium term interest.



Exactly, and some of those poorer nations may have to be incentivised to roll it out effectively. When you see Brazil and the president there calling people who complain about Covid sissies!


----------



## Wahaay

EasilyAmused said:


> One advantage to being “at the back of the vaccine queue” is that the current vaccines are only made and tested against the “parent strain”. The vaccines being produced and rolled out in six months time or so are expected to be made and tested against the Kent, South African and Brazilian strains too. And possibly others.




Fortunately early research shows existing vaccines can be effective against the mutant variants and of course their developers will constantly tweak them as more data comes in.









						Pfizer vaccine effective against more infectious Covid strain, early tests show
					

The scientists said the neutralising ability was roughly equivalent the vaccine’s effect on a previous less contagious version of the virus from last year




					inews.co.uk


----------



## odyssey06

Johnson & Johnson single dose, fridge temperature vaccine has been approved by EMA.
Initially Ireland was lined up for 600,000 doses by end of Q2 although that's now been flagged by the company as at risk.









						The single-dose Johnson & Johnson Covid-19 vaccine has been approved by the European Medicines Agency
					

Governments across the EU have been eagerly awaiting its approval as they struggle to roll-out vaccinations on a large scale.




					www.thejournal.ie


----------



## Wahaay

Meanwhile today's Inewspaper reports that the UK has taken delivery  of up to 10 million extra vaccines.
It will allow the NHS to reach all over-50s and those with underlying health conditions by the end of this month.
If supply holds up throughout the spring, all over-40s could get a jab in April with the 30-39 age group being vaccinated towards the end of the month and 18-29-year-olds called up from May.








						UK has up to 10 million extra Covid jabs, as surge in supply means NHS can ramp up second doses
					

Wales's First Minister said a 'dip' in vaccination numbers has now come to an end with greater supplies available across Britain




					inews.co.uk
				



The Irish media this morning appears to be parroting the EU line that everything possible has been done to get vaccines.
And it's all the fault of the British media for stirring the pot.

www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/there-are-no-spare-vaccines-available-for-ireland-to-lobby-for-1.4506889

But arch-EU fan Guy Verhofstadt doesn't share their magnanimity.
This was him spitting tacks at least a month ago and he's still hacked off.








						[Stakeholder] I love the EU - but the vaccine strategy is a fiasco
					

In my opinion, the contracts Europe negotiated with the pharmaceutical companies were extremely unbalanced. Precise on pricing and liabilities but weak and vague on supply and timing, and with escape routes to the contractual obligations of the pharmaceut...




					euobserver.com


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

"GlaxoSmithKline plans to apply for emergency use authorisation in the US and elsewhere for its experimental Covid-19 antibody treatment after an interim analysis of clinical trial results showed an 85 per cent reduction in hospitalisation or death among patients.

GSK, which developed the treatment with Vir Biotechnology, also said a separate in vitro study suggested the therapy remained effective against variants of concern. They plan to seek authorisation from the US “immediately” as well as approvals in other countries.

The approval would add to other antibody treatments, including those from Eli Lilly and Regeneron, that the US Food and Drug Administration has authorised. However, concerns remain about the efficacy of some of the approved treatments against virus variants."

From FT today, behind paywall. 

This might be an additional weapon.


----------



## Bronco Lane

[broken link removed]

It would appear that in Menorca they will vaccinate those under 55 years of age who are willing to take the Astrazeneca vaccine. Those over 55 years have to wait until one of the other vaccines arrives.


----------



## Wahaay

Bronco Lane said:


> [broken link removed]
> 
> It would appear that in Menorca they will vaccinate those under 55 years of age who are willing to take the Astrazeneca vaccine. Those over 55 years have to wait until one of the other vaccines arrives.



Meanwhile the UK has administered 11 million doses of AZ vaccine across the entire age spectrum with no reports of any serious side effects.
European politicians such as Merkel and Macron who cast doubt on the effectiveness of this vaccine will force citizens across the continent to pay a heavy price for their foolishness.
It has encouraged vaccine scepticism and will cause the unecessary deaths of a great many people.


----------



## Odea

It has been suggested that this is a cynical approach by the Spanish authorities so that they can advertise that their population aged under 55 have been vaccinated, so it is safe to come and spend your tourist Euro. At the same time they are leaving those over 55 wait until one of the other alleged more suitable vaccines become available.
or
Is it a good idea to use one vaccine for those under 55 and another for those over 55. 
or
Should we be vaccinating a range of ages of people rather than concentrate on the over 80's?


----------



## Wahaay

Odea said:


> It has been suggested that this is a cynical approach by the Spanish authorities so that they can advertise that their population aged under 55 have been vaccinated, so it is safe to come and spend your tourist Euro. At the same time they are leaving those over 55 wait until one of the other alleged more suitable vaccines become available.
> or
> Is it a good idea to use one vaccine for those under 55 and another for those over 55.
> or
> Should we be vaccinating a range of ages of people rather than concentrate on the over 80's?


In the UK it's a combination of age,clinical vulnerability and frontline NHS staff


NHS England weekly stats published to 7th March. 1st dose has gone to: 

95% of over-80s 
100% of 75-79
96% of 70-74 
89% of 65-69 
69% of 60-64 
19% of 18-59 
95% of frontline NHS staff 
90% of clinically extremely vulnerable 
91% of older care residents 
72% of care staff


----------



## Bronco Lane

Wahaay said:


> In the UK it's a combination of age,clinical vulnerability and frontline NHS staff


Our population is around 5 million people or so.

I just cannot see why we are unable to vaccinate the lot of us in a month and get us sorted once and for all. This constant excuse of not getting enough vaccines is wearing thin. Other countries are doing it.

To hear that we are doing well compared to other countries, positioning ourselves in the middle of the league table is not good enough. Why are we happy to sit in the middle of a league table?  We should be up there with the top three.


----------



## odyssey06

Bronco Lane said:


> Our population is around 5 million people or so.
> 
> I just cannot see why we are unable to vaccinate the lot of us in a month and get us sorted once and for all. This constant excuse of not getting enough vaccines is wearing thin. Other countries are doing it.
> 
> To hear that we are doing well compared to other countries, positioning ourselves in the middle of the league table is not good enough. Why are we happy to sit in the middle of a league table?  We should be up there with the top three.



The other countries are who exactly? The US, UK and Israel?
The US and UK have far bigger pockets and resources when it comes to sourcing vaccines.
The UK authorized vaccines early on an emergency basis, which they took a considered risk on given their huge resources in the field.
We don't have that.

There's a finite amount of vaccines in the world right now.
One of the reasons we don't have more vaccines right now is because the US and UK have hoovered so many up.

We would never have signed up for the deal Israel signed up for.
Even if we had, would the Irish state have been able to roll it out with military efficiency like Israel?
Not a chance.

If we had 'gone it alone' far more likely we'd be in situation Canada is in right now, with even less % of the population vaccinated.
Maybe we'd have gotten lucky and it would have gone better than expected, or maybe it would be a fiasco (do you remember how we sourced dodgy PPE?). It would be a disaster for us if we were far behind the rest of the EU in the vaccination rollout.
Working within the EU deal makes sense for Ireland. Do you really trust the HSE etc to succeed at this if they went alone? I don't.
Sure they should also be looking at what side deals could be available (within the bounds of the EU deal).

So that's not to suggest EU have been perfect in terms of vaccine rollout, but I would not expect Ireland on its own to fare better.


----------



## Purple

Bronco Lane said:


> I just cannot see why we are unable to vaccinate the lot of us in a month and get us sorted once and for all.


We don't have the vaccines to vaccinate people.


Bronco Lane said:


> This constant excuse of not getting enough vaccines is wearing thin.


Yea, reality can be really inconvenient like that sometimes. 


Bronco Lane said:


> Other countries are doing it.


Who? Tell us what country has vaccinated its entire population in a month?

Israel has a vastly superior and integrated and much cheaper than ours (ours is more than 40% higher per capita). That's on the people mwho work within the health service, every one of them. Therefore Israel is much better placed to work with with manufacturers to be the pilot project and offer accurate data. They also paid a premium to get to the front of the line.

The USA is now vaccinating over a million people a day. The USA is the richest and most developed and most powerful country in the history of the  world.

We are a small country off the coast of Europe trying to cope with this disease within a legacy of inefficiency, inertia and structural incompetence which is deeply ingrained in our healthcare system. We need to get real here.


----------



## Odea

When I heard Michael Martin announce that he had secured 40,000 plus new vaccines to be delivered, I almost expected the champagne corks to be popping in the background and the fireworks going off.

My heart sank.  It he is going to be excited by 40,000 extra vaccines arriving then I fear for this country.


----------



## Odea

Purple said:


> We don't have the vaccines to vaccinate people.


Why not? We are not doing enough. To hear on the radio yesterday that our minister for health has not even phoned Astrazeneca about anything was dreadful to hear.



Purple said:


> Yea, reality can be really inconvenient like that sometimes.


It shouldn't be the case.


Purple said:


> Israel has a vastly superior and integrated and much cheaper than ours (ours is more than 40% higher per capita). That's on the people mwho work within the health service, every one of them. Therefore Israel is much better placed to work with with manufacturers to be the pilot project and offer accurate data. They also paid a premium to get to the front of the line.


Are we not one of the biggest producers of pharma in the world?  Could we not have entered discussions with one of the companies about setting up a production line here?


Purple said:


> We are a small country off the coast of Europe trying to cope with this disease within a legacy of inefficiency, inertia and structural incompetence which is deeply ingrained in our healthcare system. We need to get real here.


Yes, a small country that should have been able to move a lot quicker than we have.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Odea said:


> When I heard Michael Martin announce that he had secured 40,000 plus new vaccines to be delivered, I almost expected the champagne corks to be popping in the background and the fireworks going off.
> 
> My heart sank.  It he is going to be excited by 40,000 extra vaccines arriving then I fear for this country.


It's good news 46000 extra vaccines will be administered. 
Of all the government's failings being let down by Astrazeneca repeatedly isn't something they can be blamed for.

It's very frustrating for everyone but that's where we are.


----------



## SoylentGreen

Purple said:


> The USA is now vaccinating over a million people a day. The USA is the richest and most developed and most powerful country in the history of the world.



My understanding that interest rates are near zero when borrowing money?  Could we not borrow now and pay later?  Get it sorted.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

SoylentGreen said:


> My understanding that interest rates are near zero when borrowing money?  Could we not borrow now and pay later?  Get it sorted.


Who do we buy from?


----------



## Sunny

Wahaay said:


> Meanwhile the UK has administered 11 million doses of AZ vaccine across the entire age spectrum with no reports of any serious side effects.


And yet just over 1m second doses of the vaccine. The UK made the decision to lengthen the period between doses which is their right but unless they have guaranteed increased supplies, they are going to hit a situation where first doses will fall because available doses will need to be given to people for the second dose. They are have already seen a slowdown in the numbers being vaccinated compared to early months. The UK have done well but they still have a long way to go. 

There are still questions to be asked about AZ and the EU deal. The UK seem to be able to increase supplies and they are not banning exports so why exactly are they failing on EU order side. The EU have exported millions of vaccines outside of the EU including millions to the UK but are somehow being portrayed as vaccine hoarders. The US is sitting on millions of AZ vaccines when it hasn't even been approved. So what exact deal did the company do with the US to deliver before approval? The EU seem to have backed off the company since their initial outburst so can only be left thinking that the contractual arrangement reached between the EU and AZ had more than a few holes in it..... And that is the fault of the EU and EU governments...


----------



## odyssey06

SoylentGreen said:


> My understanding that interest rates are near zero when borrowing money?  Could we not borrow now and pay later?  Get it sorted.


We could if there were significant quantities of vaccines not already locked into contracts AND we avoided a bidding war with other countries thinking the same.
But they just aren't there yet. In the short term the EU programme we are in is the only game in town.

Possibly, and this is just me flying a kite, we could be talking to the countries (e.g. US) for a cash and swap deal for AZ vaccines which they have, and don't appear to be using anytime soon i.e. we will use the vaccines now and re-allocate some of our future stock to replenish it.


----------



## Wahaay

Sunny said:


> And yet just over 1m second doses of the vaccine. The UK made the decision to lengthen the period between doses which is their right but unless they have guaranteed increased supplies, they are going to hit a situation where first doses will fall because available doses will need to be given to people for the second dose. They are have already seen a slowdown in the numbers being vaccinated compared to early months. The UK have done well but they still have a long way to go.
> 
> There are still questions to be asked about AZ and the EU deal. The UK seem to be able to increase supplies and they are not banning exports so why exactly are they failing on EU order side. The EU have exported millions of vaccines outside of the EU including millions to the UK but are somehow being portrayed as vaccine hoarders. The US is sitting on millions of AZ vaccines when it hasn't even been approved. So what exact deal did the company do with the US to deliver before approval? The EU seem to have backed off the company since their initial outburst so can only be left thinking that the contractual arrangement reached between the EU and AZ had more than a few holes in it..... And that is the fault of the EU and EU governments...



The UK has up to 10 million vaccine doses on hand at the moment - there was a 2 week slowdown in supplies but as I reported upthread this has ended.
The UK has a legally-agreed timetable with all the drug companies to ensure continued supplies and it expects all adults to have received their first dose by June without impinging on the timetable for second doses.
The failure on the EU side is down to their poorly-negotiated contracts and late procurement of vaccines last year.
For instance, the UK last year ordered 60 million Novovax jabs - clinical results yesterday show a 90% success rate across all variants and is likely go be approved in the UK next month.
The EU has yet to sign a deal.
And it's not a question of the EU exporting vaccines - these are legal contracts between other countries and individual companies within Europe to manufacture vaccines that have been developed elsewhere.
There is nothing the EU could do to prevent their export without causing a major diplomatic incident.


----------



## joe sod

Purple said:


> Yes, that's the big risk. It shows that sharing the vaccine with poorer countries before we vaccinate our low risk population is not just morally the right thing to do but is actually in out medium term interest.


That sounds great and is the line being pushed by the WHO and EU but how realistic is that in all fairness. It could take decades for that to be achieved when you look at how long it took to get polio vaccine to the poorest countries. What are lockdowns and sun holidays and hospitality supposed to remain closed until the poorest are vaccinated?,  that's actually what one senior expert was suggesting which is preposterous,  some of these experts really have come out with some daft suggestions. 
I think alot of this talk is being used to give cover to the seriously deficient European vaccination roll out. Even joe Biden united States is pursuing an America first strategy


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Just on Novavax 
it's 96% effective on last year's variant 
86% against the UK variant 
55% against the SA variant 
No data on Brazilian variant yet but based on those figures it's going to be a very important addition.


----------



## Sunny

Wahaay said:


> The UK has up to 10 million vaccine doses on hand at the moment - there was a 2 week slowdown in supplies but as I reported upthread this has ended.
> The UK has a legally-agreed timetable with all the drug companies to ensure continued supplies and it expects all adults to have received their first dose by June without impinging on the timetable for second doses.
> The failure on the EU side is down to their poorly-negotiated contracts and late procurement of vaccines last year.
> For instance, the UK last year ordered 60 million Novovax jabs - clinical results yesterday show a 90% success rate across all variants and is likely go be approved in the UK next month.
> The EU has yet to sign a deal.
> And it's not a question of the EU exporting vaccines - these are legal contracts between other countries and individual companies within Europe to manufacture vaccines that have been developed elsewhere.
> There is nothing the EU could do to prevent their export without causing a major diplomatic incident.




Well the Novovax doesn't have 90% success rate against all variants for a start so lets not get carried away.

I am sure the UK do plan on all adults receiving their first dose by June. Ireland is still claiming 80-90% of adults by June.......Politicians make promises. Lets see what happens


----------



## Purple

Odea said:


> Why not? We are not doing enough. To hear on the radio yesterday that our minister for health has not even phoned Astrazeneca about anything was dreadful to hear.


We are getting vaccines through the EU. What would calling Astra Zeneca achieve?


Odea said:


> It shouldn't be the case.


What should be the case?


Odea said:


> Are we not one of the biggest producers of pharma in the world? Could we not have entered discussions with one of the companies about setting up a production line here?


No, we aren't the biggest though we are in the top ten. The government did have those discussions but we don't have capacity or the correct infrastructure.


Odea said:


> Yes, a small country that should have been able to move a lot quicker than we have.


I agree but we can't.
Imagine a fat man who spend 20 years watching daytime TV and eating pizza and kababs suddenly deciding that he was going to run a marathon.
That's our health service; generations of not putting the patient or the public first has resulted in a  grossly inefficient health services which wastes vast amounts of money, lets people die on trolleys and soaks up the money that should be providing critical services to vulnerable children and adults. Covid19 just sits on top of that.

There's more than enough blame to go around for that though I'd put the vested interest groups within the healthcare industry at the top of the list but the people who ignore the problem and for selfish ideological or personal reasons pretend the issue is a lack of resources are close to the top as well; while we ask the wrong questions we'll always get the wrong answers.


----------



## Purple

SoylentGreen said:


> My understanding that interest rates are near zero when borrowing money?  Could we not borrow now and pay later?  Get it sorted.


What they said;


Paul O Mahoney said:


> Who do we buy from?





odyssey06 said:


> We could if there were significant quantities of vaccines not already locked into contracts AND we avoided a bidding war with other countries thinking the same.
> But they just aren't there yet. In the short term the EU programme we are in is the only game in town.
> 
> Possibly, and this is just me flying a kite, we could be talking to the countries (e.g. US) for a cash and swap deal for AZ vaccines which they have, and don't appear to be using anytime soon i.e. we will use the vaccines now and re-allocate some of our future stock to replenish it.


----------



## Purple

joe sod said:


> That sounds great and is the line being pushed by the WHO and EU but how realistic is that in all fairness. It could take decades for that to be achieved when you look at how long it took to get polio vaccine to the poorest countries. What are lockdowns and sun holidays and hospitality supposed to remain closed until the poorest are vaccinated?,  that's actually what one senior expert was suggesting which is preposterous,  some of these experts really have come out with some daft suggestions.
> I think alot of this talk is being used to give cover to the seriously deficient European vaccination roll out. Even joe Biden united States is pursuing an America first strategy


Everybody is pursuing a "Us First" strategy. The WHO is pointing out that such a strategy is morally repugnant and scientifically questionable. Political expedience trumps all though.
I hope the people who are fine with that don't then bleat on about social justice, economic fairness, climate change and other issues which don't actually require them to make any sacrifice when, probably for the first time in their lives, doing the right thing actually requires some personal sacrifice and/or has an actual impact on them so they don't want to do the right thing.


----------



## joe sod

@Purple but all those things are lovely sound bites, trying to roll climate change,  social justice and now vaccine rollout into the one issue. It just gives a good excuse for ineffectiveness,  there is no point in speeding up vaccine rollout because all of Africa needs to be vaccinated aswell,  that's not an achievable or measurable target, whereas vaccinating all of Ireland by a certain date is. That's the reason why all this other stuff is being thrown into the mix now. Our economy cannot cope for many more months of this anyway. The European Central Bank had to step back into the bond markets this week to buy more government bonds especially of Italy and Greece to prevent interest rates going back up again. Therefore the markets are saying the time is nearly up for lockdowns and unlimited government borrowing to pay for it.


----------



## Purple

joe sod said:


> @Purple but all those things are lovely sound bites, trying to roll climate change, social justice and now vaccine rollout into the one issue.


Who's rolling them all into one issue?


joe sod said:


> It just gives a good excuse for ineffectiveness, there is no point in speeding up vaccine rollout because all of Africa needs to be vaccinated aswell, that's not an achievable or measurable target, whereas vaccinating all of Ireland by a certain date is.


Why's is not an achievable measurable target? 
Vaccinating Ireland by a certain date isn't much use if we keep getting new strains which are resistant to the vaccines. 


joe sod said:


> That's the reason why all this other stuff is being thrown into the mix now.


The WHO has been talking about doing the right thing for ages, nearly as long as me!


joe sod said:


> Our economy cannot cope for many more months of this anyway. The European Central Bank had to step back into the bond markets this week to buy more government bonds especially of Italy and Greece to prevent interest rates going back up again. Therefore the markets are saying the time is nearly up for lockdowns and unlimited government borrowing to pay for it.


Ah it can. There's very little chance of any of us starving. If there are new variants against which existing vaccines are significantly less effective then we can look forward to more lockdowns in the future. Doing the right thing morally is also the right thing scientifically and economically. It's just not politically expedient.


----------



## Wahaay

Sunny said:


> Well the Novovax doesn't have 90% success rate against all variants for a start so lets not get carried away.
> 
> I am sure the UK do plan on all adults receiving their first dose by June. Ireland is still claiming 80-90% of adults by June.......Politicians make promises. Lets see what happens



It has an average of 90% efficacy against a variety of strains with the Brazil one at 55%.
It has a 100% record against death or serious illness through Covid.
It really is time to get carried away - once the vaccinations start.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Wahaay said:


> It has an average of 90% efficacy against a variety of strains with the Brazil one at 55%.
> It has a 100% record against death or serious illness through Covid.
> It really is time to get carried away - once the vaccinations start.


Where did you get the 55% figure for the Brazilian variant?


----------



## Sunny

Wahaay said:


> It has an average of 90% efficacy against a variety of strains with the Brazil one at 55%.
> It has a 100% record against death or serious illness through Covid.
> It really is time to get carried away - once the vaccinations start.



So people get a mixture of variants??? Otherwise what is the point of quoting averages.
I have no issue with getting excited and it will be a very useful vaccine but stop making claims that aren't true. It doesn't have 90% success across all variants like you claim. Indeed, the efficiency dropped below 50% in SA and the SA variant when HIV positive patients were included. I would also suggest caution on the the claims of 100% protection against severe illness considering only 5 people got severe Covid in the Placebo group and there were no deaths.

Still welcome news.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

US holding on to AstraZeneca doses in hopes of approval
					

The White House is holding onto some doses of AstraZeneca Covid-19 vaccine so they can be given to Americans quickly if authorised by the US health regulator, a top administration official has said.




					www.rte.ie
				




This is really taking the ..is. So, after the row they agreed to 40m by end of first Qtr, they can't even fulfil that.

Upto last Sunday AZ deliveries to EU plus Norway and Iceland 11.2 m doses even if they were to meet 30m ( 33% of original 90m) they'd have to ship 18.8m in the next 3 weeks.......doubt that's going to happen.


----------



## SoylentGreen

There is a huge amount of publicity about AstraZeneca and what they are, or are not doing.

What about the Pfizer vaccine?  Can we get more supplies of this? Comment has gone very quiet.

I sometimes think that the HSE is not interested in the Pfizer vaccine because it is too difficult to handle/store etc.


----------



## odyssey06

SoylentGreen said:


> There is a huge amount of publicity about AstraZeneca and what they are, or are not doing.
> 
> What about the Pfizer vaccine?  Can we get more supplies of this? Comment has gone very quiet.
> 
> I sometimes think that the HSE is not interested in the Pfizer vaccine because it is too difficult to handle/store etc.



I posted this earlier in the week. The EU secured 4 million more doses, but that translates as 46500 for Ireland.
It's a small bump, but does not offset the AZ shortfalls.









						Ireland to receive 46,500 additional Pfizer doses this month, Taoiseach confirms
					

“When they get here, they will be administered quickly,” the Taoiseach said.




					www.thejournal.ie


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

SoylentGreen said:


> There is a huge amount of publicity about AstraZeneca and what they are, or are not doing.
> 
> What about the Pfizer vaccine?  Can we get more supplies of this? Comment has gone very quiet.
> 
> I sometimes think that the HSE is not interested in the Pfizer vaccine because it is too difficult to handle/store etc.


Pfizer are performing very well with 38.1 million delivered with an average of 4.25 m per week over the last few weeks, and as was posted are giving the extra 4m .

The plant at purrs ships to 30 countries and is at full capacity.

Well Pfizer has delivered 450,540 doses and is by far the largest administered vaccine and has there been any issue with its storage, logistics or anything?
NO there hasn't, thats Europe wide.

Total vaccine delivered to EU plus 2 is just shy of 54m


----------



## tomdublin

The new government "morale boosting" radio ad is even worse than previous ones.  It promises that "by June" "up to 80 percent of adults" will have "protection" and that "all available vaccine" is used "as quickly as possible."  Promising something makes no sense unless you can clearly define what you are promising without hedging, wiggle room and escape clauses.  Otherwise it just creates more cynicism and incredulity in the population.


----------



## Wahaay

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Where did you get the 55% figure for the Brazilian variant?



Reuters









						Novavax vaccine 96% effective against COVID-19, 86% against U.K. variant: study - National | Globalnews.ca
					

There were no cases of severe illness or deaths among those who got the vaccine, the company said.




					globalnews.ca


----------



## Wahaay

Sunny said:


> So people get a mixture of variants??? Otherwise what is the point of quoting averages.
> I have no issue with getting excited and it will be a very useful vaccine but stop making claims that aren't true. It doesn't have 90% success across all variants like you claim. Indeed, the efficiency dropped below 50% in SA and the SA variant when HIV positive patients were included. I would also suggest caution on the the claims of 100% protection against severe illness considering only 5 people got severe Covid in the Placebo group and there were no deaths.
> 
> Still welcome news.



I'm beginning to think you haven't got the faintest idea about vaccines.
In the Novovax trial it proved 96% effective against the original virus and 86% agsinst the Kent variant producing an average 90% efficacy.
Even at 55% it prevents death and serious illness.
A flu vaccine only gives you between 40-60% protection so please don't stop making yourself look foolish.


----------



## Wahaay

Odea said:


> Are we not one of the biggest producers of pharma in the world?  Could we not have entered discussions with one of the companies about setting up a production line here?



I'm not sure you understand the logistics,time and money that goes into setting up a vaccine production facility.
Pfizer can't just switch a production line from making viagra into vaccines in an instant.
And people on here seem to be forgetting that AZ are producing this vaccine at cost price - it's okay for us complaining about not being able to have a pint but in poor countries around the world it's rather more serious than that.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Wahaay said:


> Reuters
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Novavax vaccine 96% effective against COVID-19, 86% against U.K. variant: study - National | Globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> There were no cases of severe illness or deaths among those who got the vaccine, the company said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> globalnews.ca


No mention of Brazilian variant the 55% relates to SA variant


----------



## Leo

Bronco Lane said:


> Other countries are doing it.



Are they really?


----------



## Leo

Odea said:


> To hear on the radio yesterday that our minister for health has not even phoned Astrazeneca about anything was dreadful to hear.


Have you tried phoning yourself?


----------



## Firefly

Leo said:


> Have you tried phoning yourself?


Be good fun actually. Put on a real cultchie accent too. "yeah yeah, just bring the trailer round the back'n Mick'll drop it back to the Coop Monday"


----------



## odyssey06

The Seerum (sic) Institute in India is producing AZ vaccines globally (supplying eg Australia) and seems less affected by supply issues than the newer AZ facilities in Europe.

The EMA are looking at authorising it as a facility which can export covid vaccines to EU.

I don't know if such a deal would be ok to pursue by Ireland independently with the Seerum (sic) institute or would need to come under the auspices of the EU programme - as the EU already have a contract with AZ.

If Michael Martin is talking to the head of AZ that's the kind of conversation to have, not about the supply from the EU facilities which the EU are already hammering them about.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

odyssey06 said:


> The Seerum (sic) Institute in India is producing AZ vaccines globally (supplying eg Australia) and seems less affected by supply issues than the newer AZ facilities in Europe.
> 
> The EMA are looking at authorising it as a facility which can export covid vaccines to EU.
> 
> I don't know if such a deal would be ok to pursue by Ireland independently with the Seerum (sic) institute or would need to come under the auspices of the EU programme - as the EU already have a contract with AZ.
> 
> If Michael Martin is talking to the head of AZ that's the kind of conversation to have, not about the supply from the EU facilities which the EU are already hammering them about.


I thought I read that EU members can't do any deals with manufacturers if the EU has already entered into a contract with them.
This is how Hungary were able to deal with Russia and China directly.

Seerum (language filter)are a 3rd party but ultimately its the AZ vaccine.
My tuppence.


----------



## odyssey06

Paul O Mahoney said:


> I thought I read that EU members can't do any deals with manufacturers if the EU has already entered into a contract with them.
> This is how Hungary were able to deal with Russia and China directly.
> 
> ************************** are a 3rd party but ultimately its the AZ vaccine.
> My tuppence


You're probably right, I was hoping there might be some wiggle room as the Seerum institute is an independent production plant not an AZ facility (if I understand the setup correctly) and could enter into its own contracts. As in the contract would be with the Seerum institute not AZ.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

odyssey06 said:


> You're probably right, I was hoping there might be some wiggle room as the Seerum institute is an independent production plant not an AZ facility (if I understand the setup correctly) and could enter into its own contracts. As in the contract would be with the Seerum institute not AZ.


I actually thought the same until I read why Hungary were allowed to source elsewhere. 
Next question is why were AZ vaccines being shipped from Italy to Australia? 

India is the world's biggest vaccine producer.


----------



## joe sod

Now a new angle the Americans have 10s of millions of AZ vaccine which they have in storage because they have not authorized it yet and are not likely to soon as they are doing more trials. Michael Martin is to be asked to get onto Joe Biden about releasing some of these to Ireland. What sort of deal did the Americans do with AZ (and this was the Trump administration remember) . Did they also get preferential treatment in comparison to the EU . Looks like even the Trump administration got the vaccine rollout right .


----------



## odyssey06

joe sod said:


> Now a new angle the Americans have 10s of millions of AZ vaccine which they have in storage because they have not authorized it yet and are not likely to soon as they are doing more trials. Michael Martin is to be asked to get onto Joe Biden about releasing some of these to Ireland. What sort of deal did the Americans do with AZ (and this was the Trump administration remember) .


Where are you reading that about the US AZ vaccines (other than here)?


----------



## Wahaay

Paul O Mahoney said:


> No mention of Brazilian variant the 55% relates to SA variant



You're quite right.I misread it.My apologies.
Fwiw,I think we're all following developments in real time anxious for instant updates.
But the reality is when a new variant is discovered it takes time,quite a lot of time,for clinical trials and data to be gathered and analysed.
The deadly Kent variant was only really known about since around Christmas when the initial Covid vaccination programme was just beginning to get underway so to have positive data within a couple of months is remarkable.
And even I'm guilty sometimes of forgetting that to have so many viable vaccines across the world within a year of the first recorded case of Covid is a truly wonderful achievement.
The most positive news is that the vaccines we have appear to be repsonding well to each new strain that comes along.


----------



## johnwilliams

is the problem with az vaccine a problem with getting ingredients from a 3rd party?


----------



## odyssey06

johnwilliams said:


> is the problem with az vaccine a problem with getting ingredients from a 3rd party?


I read something to the effect that it takes a while to fine tune the production of the mRNA vaccines at the AZ facilities.
Lot of teething problems. It seems like a complex production process with lots that can go wrong.
But could be wrong on that.


----------



## joe sod

odyssey06 said:


> Where are you reading that about the US AZ vaccines (other than here)?


It was on the news bulletins, 9 o clock news tonight aswell . I think the EU have got some information about AZ vaccines the US have which I think Joe Biden has been keeping quite. Actually I think this is a very good angle that the EU can exploit because can he really stay on that ground morally when they have all these vaccines that they are not actually using? If he says No then everything he said in his inauguration speech was just crap and then also why are they not using them ?
If nothing else it is a golden opportunity to take some of the heat off the european vaccine rollout and put some pressure on Joe Biden and their vaccine "selfishness"


----------



## odyssey06

odyssey06 said:


> I read something to the effect that it takes a while to fine tune the production of the mRNA vaccines at the AZ facilities.
> Lot of teething problems. It seems like a complex production process with lots that can go wrong.
> But could be wrong on that.


Further to this. One of the main AZ facilities named in the EU contract and based in Netherlands has not been authorized by EMA yet. It ìs producing vaccines - these may be going to UK. The article appears to suggest AZ have been slow in providing all necessary info to EMA.





__





						Subscribe to read | Financial Times
					

News, analysis and comment from the Financial Times, the worldʼs leading global business publication




					www.ft.com


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

odyssey06 said:


> Further to this. One of the main AZ facilities named in the EU contract and based in Netherlands has not been authorized by EMA yet. It ìs producing vaccines - these may be going to UK. The article appears to suggest AZ have been slow in providing all necessary info to EMA.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Subscribe to read | Financial Times
> 
> 
> News, analysis and comment from the Financial Times, the worldʼs leading global business publication
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ft.com


Bizarre, it says that the plant was contracted by AZ to produce up to December. What happened after that? 

If it was cleared to produce up to December surely it was validated by the EU , I mean the UK wouldn't have had jurisdiction to validate it.

If its producing without licence from the EU what quality assurance regime are they operating under?

This is weird


----------



## odyssey06

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Bizarre, it says that the plant was contracted by AZ to produce up to December. What happened after that?
> 
> If it was cleared to produce up to December surely it was validated by the EU , I mean the UK wouldn't have had jurisdiction to validate it.
> 
> If its producing without licence from the EU what quality assurance regime are they operating under?
> 
> This is weird


I think the UK authorities have approved the facility and so can accept exports from it.
The UK has approved Seerum Institute in India to receive exports of AZ from it. The EMA only seem to be starting this process now.

EMA approval hasn't been forthcoming for the Dutch facility - whether that's because they are slower at processing the paperwork, or require more paperwork than UK, or AZ are slowplaying their compliance so they can export the vaccines without breaching EU contract.


----------



## odyssey06

BioNTech Forms New Manufacturing Alliance, WSJ reports here (paywall). 

- New alliance of 13 companies, including Novartis AG , Merck KGaA and Sanofi SA, in an effort to meet—and perhaps exceed—an ambitious target of making two billion doses of vaccine this year.
- Pfizer struggling to meet production targets so new alliance designed to jolt production of the vaccine and speed up vaccinations in Europe and elsewhere.
- BioNTech is also increasing its own production. Its German factory, expected to come on line in April, should produce 750 million doses a year.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

odyssey06 said:


> I think the UK authorities have approved the facility and so can accept exports from it.
> The UK has approved Seerum Institute in India to receive exports of AZ from it. The EMA only seem to be starting this process now.
> 
> EMA approval hasn't been forthcoming for the Dutch facility - whether that's because they are slower at processing the paperwork, or require more paperwork than UK, or AZ are slowplaying their compliance so they can export the vaccines without breaching EU contract.


But I thought the country/regulatory body of the location also had to validate the plant.
 For example the Indian regulator would also have to be satisfied with what was being done. 

I remember herself having US/ European and Irish regulators in her place each with their own requirements.  
I've little doubt that the production up to December would have been authorised by the EMA, but what happened in January? 

I'll ask her to read the story and see what her take is, I'm no expert but at a basic level this makes no sense.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

odyssey06 said:


> BioNTech Forms New Manufacturing Alliance, WSJ reports here (paywall).
> 
> - New alliance of 13 companies, including Novartis AG , Merck KGaA and Sanofi SA, in an effort to meet—and perhaps exceed—an ambitious target of making two billion doses of vaccine this year.
> - Pfizer struggling to meet production targets so new alliance designed to jolt production of the vaccine and speed up vaccinations in Europe and elsewhere.
> - BioNTech is also increasing its own production. Its German factory, expected to come on line in April, should produce 750 million doses a year.


It's getting tight.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

odyssey06 said:


> I think the UK authorities have approved the facility and so can accept exports from it.
> The UK has approved Seerum Institute in India to receive exports of AZ from it. The EMA only seem to be starting this process now.
> 
> EMA approval hasn't been forthcoming for the Dutch facility - whether that's because they are slower at processing the paperwork, or require more paperwork than UK, or AZ are slowplaying their compliance so they can export the vaccines without breaching EU contract.


She said that the plant is probably authorised by the Dutch regulator but needs to be authorised to "export " to the EU by the EMA. The plant is also able to produce for inventory. 

This would explain why vaccines were being shipped from Italy to Australia the Australians much have authorised both plants?

There was another story on RTE that said if we are to get the vaccines AZ say we are going to get at the end of March the plant must be authorised by 25th of March. 

Reading that would infer there is stock on hand, but the EMA hasn't got the finger out and authorised the exports / or AZ hasn't supplied the necessary information to the EMA. 

Either way it needs to get sorted.


----------



## EasilyAmused

AstraZeneca vaccinations suspended in Ireland and elsewhere.

More blood clotting issues.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

EasilyAmused said:


> AstraZeneca vaccinations suspended in Ireland and elsewhere.
> 
> More blood clotting issues.


Well supply suddenly becomes moot.

It'll be interesting how the UK respond to this , if they respond.

This will have huge ramifications if the link can be established.


----------



## joe sod

Well it seems all a bit convenient to suspend AZ after AZ announce that they will fall short of delivery targets and crucially just before a potentially very awkward conversation between Michael Martin and Joe Biden where he was expected to ask about all those millions of vaccines in storage in the US. I wonder were Nphet leaned on an being the ultra cautious organisation they are it was very easy for them to suspend this vaccine. That way they can blame AZ for the very slow vaccine roll out. The timing of the whole thing is a bit suspect as Nphet could have suspended it on Friday but chose not to , I wonder if Michael Martin had succeeded in getting more vaccines from AZ Friday evening in his talk with the AZ boss would Nphet then have come and suspended the vaccine today, I very much doubt it ?
Crucially though this was done before the talk with Joe Biden, by raising this sensitive issue it would have put Joe Biden in the "vaccine nationalism" and "America First" camp that he is now very much in but does not want really publicised especially by Ireland


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

joe sod said:


> Well it seems all a bit convenient to suspend AZ after AZ announce that they will fall short of delivery targets and crucially just before a potentially very awkward conversation between Michael Martin and Joe Biden where he was expected to ask about all those millions of vaccines in storage in the US. I wonder were Nphet leaned on an being the ultra cautious organisation they are it was very easy for them to suspend this vaccine. That way they can blame AZ for the very slow vaccine roll out. The timing of the whole thing is a bit suspect as Nphet could have suspended it on Friday but chose not to , I wonder if Michael Martin had succeeded in getting more vaccines from AZ Friday evening in his talk with the AZ boss would Nphet then have come and suspended the vaccine today, I very much doubt it ?


But it wasn't NPHET who made the decision? It was the NIAC and the additional data was only released yesterday. 
It's not that difficult to follow the timeline here and without conspiracy theories.


----------



## Wahaay

It's worth remembering there hasn't been a single death reported anywhere in the world attributed to the 336 million Covid vaccine doses currently administered.
And 11 million AZ jabs in the UK alone without any reports of serious side-effects.
According to AZ “the reported numbers of these types of events for Covid-19 vaccine AstraZeneca are not greater than the number that would have occurred naturally in the unvaccinated population,” 
There have been 2.65 million deaths from Covid.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Wahaay said:


> It's worth remembering there hasn't been a single death reported anywhere in the world attributed to the 336 million Covid vaccine doses currently administered.
> And 11 million AZ jabs in the UK alone without any reports of serious side-effects.
> According to AZ “the reported numbers of these types of events for Covid-19 vaccine AstraZeneca are not greater than the number that would have occurred naturally in the unvaccinated population,”
> There have been 2.65 million deaths from Covid.


Exactly. This maybe a lot of things and no doubt an investigation will help understand what happened. Norway also raised some concerns with Pfizer/BioNTech earlier this year and it came to nothing.


----------



## Wahaay

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Exactly. This maybe a lot of things and no doubt an investigation will help understand what happened. Norway also raised some concerns with Pfizer/BioNTech earlier this year and it came to nothing



I wonder if this recommendation would have been made if there were 500,000 AZ doses in GP fridges ready for roll-out tomorrow ...
The UK - with data from 11 million doses to rely on - will be doling out tens of thousands of them today.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Wahaay said:


> I wonder if this recommendation would have been made if there were 500,000 AZ doses in GP fridges ready for roll-out tomorrow ...
> The UK - with data from 11 million doses to rely on - will be doling out tens of thousands of them today.


If the data points to an issue I would say yes. Its not an isolated issue there are issues in other countries. 
If there is no link fine but I certainly think it's the correct decision.

The UK not reporting issues, if they happened or didn't happen isn't something to use in creating policy. 
There was always going to be issues like this and its important to find answers afterall vaccine safety is paramount otherwise people will think hard about taking any vaccine and what then?


----------



## odyssey06

Could there be an issue with one particular batch? Maybe wasnt transported / stored / etc correctly.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

odyssey06 said:


> Could there be an issue with one particular batch? Maybe wasnt transported / stored / etc correctly.


Of course it could be, but this issue is popping up elsewhere, having said that it does seem the issues are in Baltic/Nordic countries.


----------



## Wahaay

Paul O Mahoney said:


> If the data points to an issue I would say yes. Its not an isolated issue there are issues in other countries.
> If there is no link fine but I certainly think it's the correct decision.
> 
> The UK not reporting issues, if they happened or didn't happen isn't something to use in creating policy.
> There was always going to be issues like this and its important to find answers afterall vaccine safety is paramount otherwise people will think hard about taking any vaccine and what then?



Are there really issues ?
The miniscule number of people suffering from blood clots after the AZ jab is no greater than would occur naturally in the population anyway.
It is noticeable that those countries with considerable amounts of data from far more successful rollouts of vaccines including AZ  have made clear there is no problem with the vaccine.
And what does the delay hope to achieve ? You can only determine whether there is a problem through extensive clinical trials and huge numbers of vaccines being delivered - both of which have already happened.
And what does Ireland do now ? Wait until some Norwegian scientist takes a few weeks to decide whether it's safe or not or listen to the combined advice of the WHO, the EMA and the US and UK regulatory authorities who say it is.
This is a red herring that will only delay the vaccine programme even more and cost far more lives than the none who have so far died from Covid-related blood clots.
And, I'm afraid to say, typically weak and confused messaging from the Irish authorities.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Wahaay said:


> Are there really issues ?
> The miniscule number of people suffering from blood clots after the AZ jab is no greater than would occur naturally in the population anyway.
> It is noticeable that those countries with considerable amounts of data from far more successful rollouts of vaccines including AZ  have made clear there is no problem with the vaccine.
> And what does the delay hope to achieve ? You can only determine whether there is a problem through extensive clinical trials and huge numbers of vaccines being delivered - both of which have already happened.
> This is a red herring that will only delay the vaccine programme even more and cost far more lives than the none who have so far died from Covid-related blood clots.


Wonder if it was a member of your family that was affected would you hold a different view?
If nothing else this is important to give people assurances that vaccines are safe and combat vaccine hesitancy. If nothing was done and there was a fatality what do you think would happen?

Anyway our individual view don't matter, what matters is safety and being able to say that with facts backing it up.


----------



## Wahaay

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Wonder if it was a member of your family that was affected would you hold a different view?
> If nothing else this is important to give people assurances that vaccines are safe and combat vaccine hesitancy. If nothing was done and there was a fatality what do you think would happen?
> 
> Anyway our individual view don't matter, what matters is safety and being able to say that with facts backing it up.



But there are facts.
The AZ vaccine has been administered in the tens of millions in 68 countries around the world without any reports of serious side-effects or deaths.
Eleven million of these in our nearest neigbours in a real-time clinical trial.
Ireland is suspending it based on a handful of blood clotting cases that wouldn't be at any higher a level even without the vaccine.
And what assurances can the Irish authorities give ? They reliant on someone else assuring them that they can assure their citizens of its safety which is already what has happened and is happening on this island north of the border.
It's a ludicrous over-reaction by a country struggling to cope with poor procurement and a stuttering roll-out.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Wahaay said:


> But there are facts.
> The AZ vaccine has been administered in the tens of millions in 68 countries around the world without any reports of serious side-effects or deaths.
> Eleven million of these in our nearest neigbours in a real-time clinical trial.
> Ireland is suspending it based on a handful of blood clotting cases that wouldn't be at any higher a level even without the vaccine.
> And what assurances can the Irish authorities give ? They reliant on someone else assuring them that they can assure their citizens of its safety which is already what has happened and is happening on this island north of the border.
> It's a ludicrous over-reaction by a country struggling to cope with poor procurement and a stuttering roll-out.


But would it not be safer to see if there is/not a link. There's nothing wrong with been prudent. 
We are not alone in deciding to suspend using the AZ vaccine.


----------



## EasilyAmused

joe sod said:


> Well it seems all a bit convenient to suspend AZ after AZ announce that they will fall short of delivery targets and crucially just before a potentially very awkward conversation between Michael Martin and Joe Biden where he was expected to ask about all those millions of vaccines in storage in the US.



Another Covid-conspiracy theory is born.


----------



## EasilyAmused

Last week there were reports of standard blood clots, ie in legs, lungs, etc. The rates of these amongst AZ vaccine recipients was similar to the general population. Hence no action was taken. 

However, the four cases in Norway are different. 
All four are brain clots. Brain clots are rare and very serious. All four cases occurred in young people. Hence the need for immediate  suspension of AZ vaccinations.

Advice (medication)  was given on radio this morning. Alas, I can’t say what as it’s against AAM posting guidelines. 

If I had been vaccinated with AZ I’d be cancelling my holiday flights and taking a ferry somewhere instead.


----------



## Wahaay

EasilyAmused said:


> However, the four cases in Norway are different.
> All four are brain clots. Brain clots are rare and very serious. All four cases occurred in young people. Hence the need for immediate  suspension of AZ vaccinations.



Have you got a link for this ?
I can't find that specific info anywhere.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

__





						Norwegian Medicines Agency notified of blood clots and bleeding in younger people after vaccination with AstraZeneca vaccine
					

The Norwegian Medicine Agency is asking people who had the AstraZeneca vaccine in the last 14 days and who feel increasingly unwell to be alert.



					www.fhi.no


----------



## Wahaay

Paul O Mahoney said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Norwegian Medicines Agency notified of blood clots and bleeding in younger people after vaccination with AstraZeneca vaccine
> 
> 
> The Norwegian Medicine Agency is asking people who had the AstraZeneca vaccine in the last 14 days and who feel increasingly unwell to be alert.
> 
> 
> 
> www.fhi.no



Thanks for that - still not convinced on this evidence that wholesale postponement of millions of vaccinations is necessary.It is interesting that no other countries across the world are picking up these side-effects.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Wahaay said:


> Thanks for that - still not convinced on this evidence that wholesale postponement of millions of vaccinations is necessary.It is interesting that no other countries across the world are picking up these side-effects.


Check out Denmark









						Blood clotting incidents raise alarm; Denmark, Norway, Iceland suspend AstraZeneca vaccine supply
					

Denmark suspended the AstraZeneca Covid-19 vaccine on Thursday after many recipients reported blood clotting and one among them has allegedly "died". Norway and Iceland also followed the suit, scrapping the vaccine administration




					www.businesstoday.in
				




And Austria 





__





						COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca: PRAC preliminary view suggests no specific issue with batch used in Austria - European Medicines Agency
					

COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca: PRAC preliminary view suggests no specific issue with batch used in Austria




					www.ema.europa.eu


----------



## Wahaay

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Check out Denmark
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Blood clotting incidents raise alarm; Denmark, Norway, Iceland suspend AstraZeneca vaccine supply
> 
> 
> Denmark suspended the AstraZeneca Covid-19 vaccine on Thursday after many recipients reported blood clotting and one among them has allegedly "died". Norway and Iceland also followed the suit, scrapping the vaccine administration
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.businesstoday.in
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And Austria
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca: PRAC preliminary view suggests no specific issue with batch used in Austria - European Medicines Agency
> 
> 
> COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca: PRAC preliminary view suggests no specific issue with batch used in Austria
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ema.europa.eu



' Allegedly, ' " died" and ' many ' all doing a lot of heavy lifting in those stories.
This isn't though ...

" The information available so far indicates that the number of thromboembolic events in vaccinated people is no higher than that seen in the general population. "

We've seen a lot of speculation subsequently proved wrong in this vaccination roll-out which is why, in the absence of solid evidence, I find Ireland's decision excessive.
We shall see.
But based on the tens of millions of vaccines delivered without serious side-effect I have an idea where this one will go.


----------



## EasilyAmused

Wahaay said:


> Have you got a link for this ?
> I can't find that specific info anywhere.



Have a listen back to the first guest on The Brendan O’Connor Show on RTÉ Radio One.


----------



## EasilyAmused

Wahaay said:


> Thanks for that - still not convinced on this evidence that wholesale postponement of millions of vaccinations is necessary.



Doesn’t really matter as AZ are shockingly  poor at delivery.


----------



## Wahaay

EasilyAmused said:


> Doesn’t really matter as AZ are shockingly  poor at delivery.



Not to those countries which negotiated water-tight contracts ...


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Wahaay said:


> ' Allegedly, ' " died" and ' many ' all doing a lot of heavy lifting in those stories.
> This isn't though ...
> 
> " The information available so far indicates that the number of thromboembolic events in vaccinated people is no higher than that seen in the general population. "
> 
> We've seen a lot of speculation subsequently proved wrong in this vaccination roll-out which is why, in the absence of solid evidence, I find Ireland's decision excessive.
> We shall see.
> But based on the tens of millions of vaccines delivered without serious side-effect I have an idea where this one will go.


Nobody knows but we need to find out and get solid evidence. It's not really going to change a lot with our rollout.


----------



## EasilyAmused

Wahaay said:


> And if you delay the rollout of AZ significantly how many deaths will be caused among people who might otherwise have lived if they'd had the jab.



Fortunately there are other vaccines:
Pfizer, Moderna, J&J, Sputnik V, SinoVax to name but a few. None of which have had brain clot issues.


----------



## Wahaay

EasilyAmused said:


> Fortunately there are other vaccines:
> Pfizer, Moderna, J&J, Sputnik V, SinoVax to name but a few. None of which have had brain clot issues.



We don't know yet whether the AZ has had the blood clot issues that those countries who are having problems getting hold of them of them are " investigating " .
Those with a plentiful supply don't appear to have a problem with them ...
But good luck with the other vaccines - when they finally arrive in the Autumn ...


----------



## johnwilliams

anyone know how long after these 4 people were vaccinated did they get brain clots ,maybe they were taking other types of medication etc which interacted with vaccine negatively


----------



## EasilyAmused

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Check out Denmark
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Blood clotting incidents raise alarm; Denmark, Norway, Iceland suspend AstraZeneca vaccine supply
> 
> 
> Denmark suspended the AstraZeneca Covid-19 vaccine on Thursday after many recipients reported blood clotting and one among them has allegedly "died". Norway and Iceland also followed the suit, scrapping the vaccine administration
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.businesstoday.in
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And Austria
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca: PRAC preliminary view suggests no specific issue with batch used in Austria - European Medicines Agency
> 
> 
> COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca: PRAC preliminary view suggests no specific issue with batch used in Austria
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ema.europa.eu



Iceland and Netherlands too.


----------



## Wahaay

But not the UK which administered 560,000 AZ & Pfizer jabs on Saturday alone.
Health authorities there say there is no record of any life-threatening side effects after nearly 26 million doses of both vaccines have been given.
I know whose data I trust which is just as well because both my kids received their AZ jabs over the weekend.


----------



## joe sod

Prof Luke o Neill was very critical of the decision to suspend the AZ vaccine saying "they are not trusting science " that's a shot across the bows at Niac seen as they are supposed to be a scientific organisation. The fact that someone of luke o Neills stature has chosen to publicly criticise the decision is telling. He actually went on to say "it's very disturbing ".


----------



## Wahaay

joe sod said:


> Prof Luke o Neill was very critical of the decision to suspend the AZ vaccine saying "they are not trusting science " that's a shot across the bows at Niac seen as they are supposed to be a scientific organisation. The fact that someone of luke o Neills stature has chosen to publicly criticise the decision is telling. He actually went on to say "it's very disturbing ".



The thing I find bizarre is the politicians hoping to get the AZ vaccine programme up and running within a few days.
Either you believe the evidence of extensive clinical trials and 70 million AZ doses administered already stretching back months or Norwegian medical authorities who have no hope of coming close to that sort of research before making a definitive decision.
And I said upthread it's more important to see the large numbers of countries not suspending their programmes than a few outliers who have.


----------



## michaelm

Pausing AZ is the prudent thing to do, albeit a decision made easier by the dearth of supply here.  I wouldn't take it at the moment.


----------



## Wahaay

michaelm said:


> Pausing AZ is the prudent thing to do, albeit a decision made easier by the dearth of supply here.  I wouldn't take it at the moment.



I, like 70 million other people, have had mine without any side-effects whatsoever apart from a stiff arm.
My GP here thinks Ireland and the other countries pausing the AZ rollout is the equivalent of one of those mass panic attacks you occasionally read about where everyone loses the run of themselves but no-one really knows why.
Of course the long-term effect of this is to add fuel to the anti-vax doubters but more importantly it will cost lives
Stanley Pignal is the Economist's man in Paris.
He notes: " If you vaccinate 100,000 people over the age of 50 today rather than tomorrow, you save 15 lives, according to a French analysis. Germany has 1.7m AstraZeneca doses that are now not being administered. Delay all of those by a week, you're up 1785 deaths. "


----------



## Merowig

Germany had 6+1 cases (6 women 1 man - 2 died out of the six) during the 1.6 million vaccinations done with AstraZeneca
So that is basically 1 case per 228,571.40 doses
UK had 14 cases with 10 million doses - 1 case per 714,285.70 doses - but very possibly the UK did overlook some cases.
It is almost certain according to German experts that this due to the vaccine.
Most likely they will review the case and in one week vaccination with AstraZeneca will resume as the vaccination is generally still beneficial and is an acceptable risk.
Politicians were forced to pause here the vaccination with AstraZeneca. This is absolute necessary as otherwise skepticism of the vaccine would have just increased. Vaccination needs trust. For the average person like me for whom Covid is not a threat I do not see a reason why should I risk vaccination with AstraZeneca. But on the other hand the risk is small. If I would get all my freedoms immediately back after vaccination I might would go for it.



Wahaay said:


> I, like 70 million other people, have had mine without any side-effects whatsoever apart from a stiff arm.
> My GP here thinks Ireland and the other countries pausing the AZ rollout is the equivalent of one of those mass panic attacks you occasionally read about where everyone loses the run of themselves but no-one really knows why.
> Of course the long-term effect of this is to add fuel to the anti-vax doubters but more importantly it will cost lives
> Stanley Pignal is the Economist's man in Paris.
> He notes: " If you vaccinate 100,000 people over the age of 50 today rather than tomorrow, you save 15 lives, according to a French analysis. Germany has 1.7m AstraZeneca doses that are now not being administered. Delay all of those by a week, you're up 1785 deaths. "



Germany has as well millions of Pfizer doses which are not administered. The bottle neck there is not the vaccine but the administration - if they just continue with Pfizer there would not be a difference in mortality right now for Germany. There will be only a short delay as more Pfizer doses need to be pulled out of their storage and redistributed.


----------



## tomdublin

Just present people with the medical evidence (AZ poses a possible risk but extremely small) and then allow them to choose whether to get vaccinated with AZ now or wait for another vaccine later.  Citizens are trusted to make such risk-assessments in many other areas (e.g. when choosing diets, holiday destinations, airlines, occupations and hobbies) and I can't see why they should be denied the same opportunity in this case.


----------



## Wahaay

tomdublin said:


> Just present people with the medical evidence (AZ poses a possible risk but extremely small) and then allow them to choose whether to get vaccinated with AZ now or wait for another vaccine later.  Citizens are trusted to make such risk-assessments in many other areas (e.g. when choosing diets, holiday destinations, airlines, occupations and hobbies) and I can't see why they should be denied the same opportunity in this case.



But there is absolutely no evidence that AZ provides any more risk than Pfizer - in fact all clinical trials point towards a lower risk of clots by those who have had a vaccine.Any vaccine.
The reality is this:
Pfizer have reported 25 cases of blood clotting in 11 million vaccinations.
Astrazeneca have reported 28 cases in 10 million.
Yet only one vaccine is currently being suspended.
Countries like Ireland are in the grip of a collective panic attack having lost their nerve under pressure from the poor vaccine roll out and are ignoring all scientific evidence being presented to them.
Frankly it's pathetically weak leadership and should be called out as such.


----------



## Merowig

Wahaay said:


> But there is absolutely no evidence that AZ provides any more risk than Pfizer - in fact all clinical trials point towards a lower risk of clots by those who have had a vaccine.Any vaccine.
> The reality is this:
> Pfizer have reported 25 cases of blood clotting in 11 million vaccinations.
> Astrazeneca have reported 28 cases in 10 million.
> Yet only one vaccine is currently being suspended.
> Countries like Ireland are in the grip of a collective panic attack having lost their nerve under pressure from the poor vaccine roll out and are ignoring all scientific evidence being presented to them.
> Frankly it's pathetically weak leadership and should be called out as such.


AstraZeneca: 14 cases per 10 million in the UK and 7 cases per 1.6 million doses in Germany...
In Germany the patients who experienced that were not old...
And pausing the vaccination with AstraZeneca in Germany was done upon advise of scientists - no panic here at all.


----------



## Merowig

tomdublin said:


> Just present people with the medical evidence (AZ poses a possible risk but extremely small) and then allow them to choose whether to get vaccinated with AZ now or wait for another vaccine later.  Citizens are trusted to make such risk-assessments in many other areas (e.g. when choosing diets, holiday destinations, airlines, occupations and hobbies) and I can't see why they should be denied the same opportunity in this case.


No doctor would administer that in light of the recommendation by the government not to do it. Governments paused, they will review it and very likely they will resume usage.


----------



## joe sod

An article in the independent today affirms what I said on Sunday,  the taoisech ruled out asking joe Biden for the AZ vaccines they have when asked directly by cbs news. The Niac decision to suspend came just in time for his meeting with joe Biden. This can't be just coincidental because that suspension means he is on same ground as joe Biden vis a vis the AZ vaccine even though that vaccine is still central to our vaccine rollout and is expected to be very temporary. He did not want to ask joe Biden awkward questions about their hoarding of vaccines. Significantly it took a us media and not an Irish one to still ask him straight up.


----------



## RedOnion

Merowig said:


> And pausing the vaccination with AstraZeneca in Germany was done upon advise of scientists


Scientists who's job it is to make these decisions.
They're obviously all mad and overreacting. I know that, because a random guy in the internet said it!


----------



## RedOnion

joe sod said:


> The Niac decision to suspend came just in time for his meeting with joe Biden. This can't be just coincidental


Absolutely Joe. You're into something here.
And to cover up the conspiracy, they've gone and managed to convince 10 other countries to also suspend the vaccination. They probably killed the people who have died in the first place, and orchestrated the timing of Norway's statement last week. Just to avoid Micheal having to avoid something he was uncomfortable asking.

It's a massive cover-up, and we should be demanding answers!


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

joe sod said:


> An article in the independent today affirms what I said on Sunday,  the taoisech ruled out asking joe Biden for the AZ vaccines they have when asked directly by cbs news. The Niac decision to suspend came just in time for his meeting with joe Biden. This can't be just coincidental because that suspension means he is on same ground as joe Biden vis a vis the AZ vaccine even though that vaccine is still central to our vaccine rollout and is expected to be very temporary. He did not want to ask joe Biden awkward questions about their hoarding of vaccines. Significantly it took a us media and not an Irish one to still ask him straight up.


So, MM called Norway and they made up a story about blood clots while they were doing that he called Denmark and other countries to come out in solidarity once the Norwegians issued a statement on Saturday night. He then called the NIAC and they advised to stop using the Astrazeneca vaccine. 
And all this was done so that MM didn't have to ask Joe Biden for AZ vaccines that are in storage pending authorisation by the FDA an independent authority in the US.
Of course let's not forget that the AZ contract when it received money from the US administration ensured that all US production stayed in the US.

If he pulled that off we are lucky to have him as Taoiseach


----------



## Wahaay

RedOnion said:


> Scientists who's job it is to make these decisions.
> They're obviously all mad and overreacting. I know that, because a random guy in the internet said it!



As well as the WHO and EMA ...


----------



## RedOnion

For anyone interested, here's the actual interview on CBS. 








						Irish prime minister stresses need for more vaccine doses to meet global demand
					

Taoiseach Micheál Martin says global demand for vaccines is outpacing production efforts around the world.



					www.cbsnews.com


----------



## Purple

Paul O Mahoney said:


> So, MM called Norway and they made up a story about blood clots while they were doing that he called Denmark and other countries to come out in solidarity once the Norwegians issued a statement on Saturday night. He then called the NIAC and they advised to stop using the Astrazeneca vaccine.


Those notoriously shifty Norwegians... and as for the Danes, sure they all used to be Vikings!


----------



## RedOnion

Wahaay said:


> As well as the WHO and EMA ...


Ah yes, but the EMA is just a bunch of failed bureaucrats, so why would we listen to them?...


----------



## Wahaay

RedOnion said:


> Ah yes, but the EMA is just a bunch of failed bureaucrats, so why would we listen to them?...



I know.
It would be like paying for the opinion of a doctor who has studied all the clinical evidence then ignoring it because you heard on the news about some other person in a different country who might have a different opinion but with any facts just a funny feeling.
Crazy isn't it ?


----------



## Purple

Wahaay said:


> I know.
> It would be like paying for the opinion of a doctor who has studied all the clinical evidence then ignoring it because you heard on the news about some other person in a different country who might have a different opinion but with any facts just a funny feeling.
> Crazy isn't it ?


Scientists in a number of countries have found evidence which suggests the possibility of causality. The rollout has been suspended until that has been investigated. None of us here have enough information to offer definitive or even informed opinions on the evidence. We can only speculate on the integrity of those involved. That is reductive and pointless.


----------



## RedOnion

Wahaay said:


> I know.
> It would be like paying for the opinion of a doctor who has studied all the clinical evidence then ignoring it because you heard on the news about some other person in a different country who might have a different opinion but with any facts just a funny feeling.
> Crazy isn't it ?


I couldn't agree more. 

We should really try to get a bunch of highly qualified people together, and make it their responsibility to make decisions like this. You know the type, highly qualified doctors, professors, etc.

If only someone had the foresight to set something like that up, rather than reacting to internet news...

Oh, wait a minute. Is that what these guys do?








						Who we are
					

Meet the members of the National Immunisation Advisory Committee




					www.rcpi.ie


----------



## Wahaay

Purple said:


> None of us here have enough information to offer definitive or even informed opinions on the evidence.



There is a mountain of evidence to suggest otherwise.
It's why the WHO, EMA and countless other medical agencies around the world have declared the vaccine safe.
Ireland once again follows rather than leads.


----------



## Wahaay

RedOnion said:


> I couldn't agree more.
> 
> We should really try to get a bunch of highly qualified people together, and make it their responsibility to make decisions like this. You know the type, highly qualified doctors, professors, etc.
> 
> If only someone had the foresight to set something like that up, rather than reacting to internet news...
> 
> Oh, wait a minute. Is that what these guys do?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who we are
> 
> 
> Meet the members of the National Immunisation Advisory Committee
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.rcpi.ie


You seem confused in your posts.
Is it the EMA which has taken months to study the evidence  or NIAC who took a decision in Saturday night without seeing any evidence who we should rely on ?
I know where my money is going.
So does this feller.









						AstraZeneca ‘pause’ doesn’t add up
					






					www.irishtimes.com


----------



## Merowig

Wahaay said:


> As well as the WHO and EMA ...


Personally for me the WHO is compromised but nevermind.
And EMA is evaluating





__





						News - The Paul-Ehrlich-Institut informs - Temporary Suspension of Vaccination with COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca
					

After intensive consultations on the serious thrombotic events that have occurred in Germany and Europe, the Paul-Ehrlich-Institut recommends the temporary suspension of vaccinations with the COVID-19 vaccine AstraZeneca.




					www.pei.de


----------



## Leo

Wahaay said:


> in fact all clinical trials point towards a lower risk of clots by those who have had a vaccine.Any vaccine.



Can you point to the evidence of that?


----------



## Wahaay

Leo said:


> Can you point to the evidence of that?



If one million people are vaccinated and their chances of death or hospialisation is reduced by 100% the risk of the catching Covid and the associated clots that go with it is significantly less than someone in another group of one million people who haven't been vaccinated and who have a greater chance of catching Covid.
The numbers of people being reported with clots after vaccine immunisation is actually lower that would normally be the case without Covid being around.


----------



## RedOnion

Wahaay said:


> You seem confused in your posts


Thanks. I didn't realise I was confused. I'm so lucky to have you point this out to me.

Where would we be without your highly valued, balanced, considered and unbiased input?


----------



## Leo

Wahaay said:


> If one million people are vaccinated and their chances of death or hospialisation is reduced by 100% the risk of the catching Covid and the associated clots that go with it is significantly less than someone who hasn't been vaccinated who has a greater chance of catching Covid.



That's not evidence, just a repeat of your claim. Where is the evidence?


----------



## Wahaay

Leo said:


> That's not evidence, just a repeat of your claim. Where is the evidence?



If you won't accept the very clear statistical evidence that a vaccine that prevents you catching Covid 19 and the clots that are often associated with it reduces your chances of getting blood clots then I'm afraid there's really no help for you.


----------



## Leo

Wahaay said:


> If you won't accept the very clear statistical evidence that a vaccine that prevents you catching Covid 19 and the clots that are often associated with it reduces your chances of getting blood clots then I'm afraid there's really no help for you.



So you can't supply evidence to show that the vaccine has been proven to reduce the risk of clotting?


----------



## Wahaay

Leo said:


> So you can't supply evidence to show that the vaccine has been proven to reduce the risk of clotting?



It reduces the risk of clotting because it virtually eliminates the chance of catching Covid which greatly increases the risk of clotting.
Is that really so hard to understand ?


----------



## Leo

Wahaay said:


> It reduces the risk of clotting because it virtually eliminates the chance of catching Covid which greatly increases the risk of clotting.
> Is that really so hard to understand ?



So still no actual evidence. 

However, the above clearly demonstrates that you do not understand what is being discussed here. The clotting risk being assessed is the risk of someone who has been inoculated with the AZ vaccine against the risk of a someone who has not been inoculated, neither groups having contracted Covid. 

Can you point to your evidence of the 'greatly increased' risk of clotting associated with Covid?


----------



## EmmDee

Leo said:


> So still no actual evidence.
> 
> However, the above clearly demonstrates that you do not understand what is being discussed here. The clotting risk being assessed is the risk of someone who has been inoculated with the AZ vaccine against the risk of a someone who has not been inoculated, neither groups having contracted Covid.
> 
> Can you point to your evidence of the 'greatly increased' risk of clotting associated with Covid?



I don't always agree with the Gentleman but I believe a Canadian study has shown a 2% chance of Covid patients developing blood clots. So there is an increased risk.

However, what I would say is that a short pause to assess a particular risk is not a problem in my mind. I believe the concern is that clotting has appeared in younger recipients of the vaccine which may be different than the "normal" clotting expectations. And to be honest, a short pause during which the stock continues to be accumulated, won't impact overall timing as the delay can easily be caught up using the stockpile. As we have seen in this country, there is probably a more serious public impact if something was suspected and not acted upon.

I also suspect that if there is a known risk of clotting, all that will happen is that the procedures and protocols will be amended to monitor for that side effect and then the vaccinations will continue. It won't mean the vaccine be dumped. A bit like the "sitting for 20 mins" to ensure no allergic reaction.

I know it's a tangent - but for other reasons I have cause to take a certain medicine for which there are known side effects. I come across some people who say they won't take the medicine because of the side effects which I find very odd. NOT taking medical treatment has a 100% definite side effect (i.e. the underlying condition) that they never take into account. At least know side effects can be managed.

So I have no problem with a brief pause, I have no problem with continuing with the vaccine even if it is shown to have an additional risk (which can be managed) but I do think the vaccine brings benefits even if there is a potential side effect


----------



## Wahaay

Leo said:


> Can you point to your evidence of the 'greatly increased' risk of clotting associated with Covid?


There is endless amounts of evidence showing the associated risk of clotting with Covid if you could be bothered to do your own research.




' Overall, 20 percent of the COVID-19 patients were found to have blood clots in the veins, and among patients in the intensive care unit, that statistic increased to 31 percent. '


----------



## Leo

EmmDee said:


> I don't always agree with the Gentleman but I believe a Canadian study has shown a 2% chance of Covid patients developing blood clots. So there is an increased risk.



There are a few studies that show some increased risk, mostly associated with those who have severe symptoms requiring intensive intervention, which itself is associated with an increased clotting risk. However, no one in the scientific community has claimed there is a 'greatly increased' risk. 



EmmDee said:


> So I have no problem with a brief pause, I have no problem with continuing with the vaccine even if it is shown to have an additional risk (which can be managed) but I do think the vaccine brings benefits even if there is a potential side effect



I agree, I think showing concern and an openness to accept potential issues is an important factor in maintaining public trust in vaccination at a time we really need the public to be on board. A few days pause will not impact our timelines as supply is the far outweighing constraint.


----------



## Wahaay

Leo said:


> There are a few studies that show some increased risk, mostly associated with those who have severe symptoms requiring intensive intervention, which itself is associated with an increased clotting risk.


Hence if a vaccine prevents death or hospitalisation the risks of clotting are greatly reduced.
I'm glad we got there eventually.


----------



## Leo

Wahaay said:


> There is endless amounts of evidence showing the associated risk of clotting with Covid if you could be bothered to do your own research.



Again, that fails to prove your claim, and does not in any way address the incidence of clotting in the general public.


----------



## Leo

Wahaay said:


> Hence if a vaccine prevents death or hospitalisation the risks of clotting are greatly reduced.
> I'm glad we got there eventually.



The rates of hospitalisation with Covid are very low, and the numbers requiring intensive treatment are a smaller proportion of those again, the numbers of those developing clots are yet again a smaller number. 

Do you understand that a small change in risk to a small percentage of a small percentage does not add up to a 'greatly increased' risk?


----------



## Merowig

The Germans have released more details



			https://www.pei.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/EN/newsroom-en/hp-news/faq-temporary-suspension-astrazeneca.pdf?__blob=publicationFile&v=5
		

"The affected individuals had ages ranging from about 20 to 50 years
(...)
The number of these cases after vaccination with COVID-19 AstraZeneca is statistically significantly higher than the number of cerebral venous thromboses that normally occur in the unvaccinated population. For this purpose, an observed-versus-expected analysis was performed, comparing the number of cases expected without vaccination in a 14-day time window with the number of cases reported after approximately 1.6 million AstraZeneca vaccinations in Germany. About one case would have been expected, and seven cases had been reported
(...)
In addition to the experts from the Paul-Ehrlich-Institut, other experts in thrombosis, haematology, and an adenovirus specialist were consulted with the details of the reported cases. All experts agreed unanimously that a pattern could be discerned here and that a connection between the reported above-mentioned diseases and the vaccination with COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca was not implausible."

One more of the persons affected died now. Three deaths now out of the seven cases.


----------



## Wahaay

Leo said:


> The rates of hospitalisation with Covid are very low.


I know you're a moderator and all that but if you seriously think the rates of hospital admissions for Covid over the last year across the globe have been very low you're totally delusional.
I mean seriously what planet have you been living on ?
I can't believe anyone with an ounce of intelligence seriously believes that.


----------



## Merowig

Perhaps you can refrain from insults? As a percentage hospitalisation is low. That is a fact.


----------



## Wahaay

Merowig said:


> Perhaps you can refrain from insults? As a percentage hospitalisation is low. That is a fact.


What insults ?
Anyone who thinks hospitalisation from Covid in the last year has been very low is totally and utterly delusionsal.
At the worst times our hospitals have been close to being overwhelmed by Covid.
ICU's have been at maximum capacity and tens of thousands of surgical procedures have been cancelled because of this.
This is tinfoil hat territory.


----------



## Merowig

Ireland’s hospitals were overwhelmed before Covid. It is a constant state.

Procedures were cancelled as a precaution and many hospitals then were not working at capacity at all. The deal Ireland did with the private hospitals was not worth the money and was not extended. Private hospitals in Germany got into financial troubles and feared bankruptcies as they were under-utilised and had to cancel operations in order to prepare for Covid.


----------



## Wahaay

Merowig said:


> Ireland’s hospitals were overwhelmed before Covid. It is a constant state.
> 
> Procedures were cancelled as a precaution and many hospitals then were not working at capacity at all. The deal Ireland did with the private hospitals was not worth the money and was not extended. Private hospitals in Germany got into financial troubles and feared bankruptcies as they were under-utilised and had to cancel operations in order to prepare for Covid.



There are around 280 ICU beds in hospitals around Ireland.
On the 24th January at the height of the latest wave of the pandemic 221 of those were occupied by people critically ill with Covid 19.
To say the rate of hospitalisation with Covid has been very low is total nonsense.


----------



## Wahaay

An article from the Irish Times and a piece from the BBC explaining rather more elegantly than me the problems of postponing the AZ jab on such flimsy medical evidence even for just a week.



			https://mobile.twitter.com/BBCRosAtkins/status/1371574236473561092
		










						Michael McDowell: Is vaccine suspension misguided insurance against blame?
					

Decision blunder made by opaque bodies passing for State’s public health expertise




					www.irishtimes.com
				




The UK, meanwhile, has vaccinated 820,000 people with both the AZ and Pfizer jabs since Ireland joined other EU countries in postponing its AZ rollout.
That's 200,000 more people jabbed in two days than Ireland's entire vaccination programme.
There have been no reports of a single serious side effect amongst any of them.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Wahaay said:


> The UK, meanwhile, has vaccinated 820,000 people with both the AZ and Pfizer jabs since Ireland joined other EU countries in postponing its AZ rollout.
> That's 200,000 more people jabbed in two days than Ireland's entire vaccination programme.
> There have been no reports of a single serious side effect amongst any of them.


There is a reason for that , the UK only gather information from their "Yellow Card" system weekly and report monthly.
For example the report up to 28th of February was published on  the  11th of March.

Additionally anyone can access this system.


----------



## RedOnion

Wahaay said:


> To say the rate of hospitalisation with Covid has been very low is total nonsense.


Now you seem to be confused.

Do you know what the hospitalisation rate actually is for Covid in Ireland? To help you with your Google search, it's not an absolute number in ICU at a point in time that I'm looking for here.

And yes, the information is readily available, and supports the assertion made by @Leo  and @Merowig


----------



## Ceist Beag

Wahaay said:


> I know you're a moderator and all that but if you seriously think the rates of hospital admissions for Covid over the last year across the globe have been very low you're totally delusional.
> I mean seriously what planet have you been living on ?
> I can't believe anyone with an ounce of intelligence seriously believes that.


You seem to be confusing rate with actual numbers. I think you should stop ranting and think before questioning anyone else's intelligence!


----------



## Sunny

Good for the UK. They had one of the biggest death rates in the world so good to see them get their act together. We all have family and friends in the UK so doubt there is a single person here that would begrudge them the progress they are making.

However, why do they care if Ireland or any other country has paused the AZ vaccine? Its not an insult to the British people despite what the English media portray it as. The Americans haven't even approved the vaccine yet and that doesn't seem to bother the European obsessed British media.

This nationalistic narrative that is creeping in about vaccines is just tiresome. Nobody is going to defend the EU's performance as exemplary on this but why do the UK care? Let them do their own thing. We have a situation where the UK and the US are exporting zero vaccine shots and even if the UK don't have a explicit export ban, they are not sharing production capacity. The EU on the other hand are exporting millions of doses every month including over 9m doses to the UK yet all we get out of the English media is constant talk about Glorious Britain and rubbish about European overloards.


----------



## Wahaay

Sunny said:


> Good for the UK. They had one of the biggest death rates in the world so good to see them get their act together. We all have family and friends in the UK so doubt there is a single person here that would begrudge them the progress they are making.
> 
> However, why do they care if Ireland or any other country has paused the AZ vaccine? Its not an insult to the British people despite what the English media portray it as. The Americans haven't even approved the vaccine yet and that doesn't seem to bother the European obsessed British media.
> 
> This nationalistic narrative that is creeping in about vaccines is just tiresome. Nobody is going to defend the EU's performance as exemplary on this but why do the UK care? Let them do their own thing. We have a situation where the UK and the US are exporting zero vaccine shots and even if the UK don't have a explicit export ban, they are not sharing production capacity. The EU on the other hand are exporting millions of doses every month including over 9m doses to the UK yet all we get out of the English media is constant talk about Glorious Britain and rubbish about European overloards.



So, no mention of the Michael McDowell article or the substance of what both pieces are saying about the AZ vaccine postponment ?
Just another anti-Brit rant.
It always comes down to Anglophobia eventually.
The EU is not " exporting " millions of vaccines.
Multi-national companies with production facilities in a number of countries inside and out of the EU are meeting their legally-binding contractual obligations to deliver vaccines.
The EU doesn't export BMWs.
BMW exports BMWs.


----------



## Sunny

Wahaay said:


> So, no mention of the Michael McDowell article or the substance of what both pieces are saying about the AZ vaccine postponment ?
> Just another anti-Brit rant.
> It always comes down to Anglophobia eventually.
> The EU is not " exporting " millions of vaccines.
> Multi-national companies with production facilities in a number of countries inside and out of the EU are meeting their legally-binding contractual obligations to deliver vaccines.



Anti brit rant? I suggest you take a break. You are just coming across as pretty pathetic.

By the way, we stopped listening to Michael McDowell years ago...


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Wahaay said:


> So, no mention of the Michael McDowell article or the substance of what both pieces are saying about the AZ vaccine postponment ?
> Just another anti-Brit rant.
> It always comes down to Anglophobia eventually.
> The EU is not " exporting " millions of vaccines.
> Multi-national companies with production facilities in a number of countries inside and out of the EU are meeting their legally-binding contractual obligations to deliver vaccines.


You should read it again its very complimentary of the UKs rollout.


----------



## Wahaay

Sunny said:


> Anti brit rant? I suggest you take a break. You are just coming across as pretty pathetic.
> 
> By the way, we stopped listening to Michael McDowell years ago...



Who is we ?
There are quite a number of below-the-line comments from people - far more than on here - who have read and agreed with his sentiments.
Perhaps you should read them as well when you get round to reading the article.
The problem with existing in an echo chamber is that you only hear voices you agree with or like your comments ...


----------



## Sunny

This is my last contribution to this before I go burn some English flags and tell my English wife and in laws how much I hate them.

I have no issue with any aspect of the UK rollout. They devised a strategy and negotiated what appears to be very beneficial contractual terms. However, you cannot deny that they have obviously made it mandatory for AZ to use British production capacity for the British Market. The US look like they have done the same. Thats their perogative.

As much as there is to criticise the EU about with this rollout and there is alot, I have no issue with them not going down t the same road and getting contracts tieing down European production to meet European demand. This is a global pandemic. It won't be beaten through vaccine protectionism. The EU were obviously very gullible when negotiating with AZ and did not do enough due diligence on production capacity. That was a huge failing.

I have no time for the political rubbish coming out of Paris, Berlin, Brussels or London with everyone trying to score political points after Brexit. People are dying every single day. I have no desire to see someone in London get sick and die than I do see someone in Dublin or Milan get sick or die.

I could not care less who is winning the race. I want everyone in every country  to be vaccinated as soon and as safely as possibly so we can get back to living our lives with some sense of normality.


----------



## Sunny

Wahaay said:


> Who is we ?
> There are quite a number of below-the-line comments from people - far more than on here - who have read and agreed with his sentiments.
> Perhaps you should read them as well when you get round to reading the article.
> The problem with existing in an echo chamber is that you only hear voices you agree with or like your comments ...



Fine i shouldn't have said we. I stopped listening to him years ago.... better????

If you find this site anti brit, anglophobic or whatever else I suggest you find somewhere else for your own happiness. Nobody should have to read such blatant racism.....


----------



## Wahaay

Sunny said:


> Fine i shouldn't have said we. I stopped listening to him years ago.... better????
> 
> If you find this site anti brit, anglophobic or whatever else I suggest you find somewhere else for your own happiness. Nobody should have to read such blatant racism.....



I didn't realise this was a local forum for local people ...
But at least you admitted you couldn't be bothered to read an article on the subject of this discussion before dismissing it.


----------



## Sunny

Wahaay said:


> I didn't realise this was a local forum for local people ...
> But at least you admitted you couldn't be bothered to read an article on the subject of this discussion before dismissing it.



You are just boring now....take offense all you like. I'm out.


----------



## Wahaay

Paul O Mahoney said:


> There is a reason for that , the UK only gather information from their "Yellow Card" system weekly and report monthly.
> For example the report up to 28th of February was published on  the  11th of March.
> 
> Additionally anyone can access this system.



Can you point to a single case of any one of the 11 million people to receive the AZ vaccine in the UK who has suffered a serious reaction ?


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Wahaay said:


> Can you point to a single case of any one of the 11 million people to receive the AZ vaccine in the UK who has suffered a serious reaction ?


Well the data is there for you to search. 

And that's not what you posted you said , with authority, that  there was no report of serious side-effects from the 800k vaccines over 2 days. I gave you the factual reason why that couldn't be known.


----------



## Wahaay

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Well the data is there for you to search.
> 
> And that's not what you posted you said , with authority, that  there was no report of serious side-effects from the 800k vaccines over 2 days. I gave you the factual reason why that couldn't be known.



There's no need for me to search any data as it has already been done by the UK's regulators over the past 11 million vaccines and no serious side effects or related deaths have been found.
Unless you suddenly think a dodgy batch has landed in the past few days...


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Wahaay said:


> There's no need for me to search any data as it has already been done by the UK's regulators over the past 11 million vaccines and no serious side effects or related deaths have been found.
> Unless you suddenly think a dodgy batch has landed in the past few days...


Really then why are 39 deaths reported against Astrazeneca in the MHRA report?

Now if " there are no related deaths have been found" why are the MHRA reporting 39 ? It certainly seems your "truth" is wrong.
It's all there in the data, but of course you don't read data.


----------



## Wahaay

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Really then why are 39 deaths reported against Astrazeneca in the MHRA report?
> 
> Now if " there are no related deaths have been found" why are the MHRA reporting 39 ? It certainly seems your "truth" is wrong.
> It's all there in the data, but of course you don't read data.



https://assets.publishing.service.g...VID-19_AstraZeneca_Vaccine_Analysis_Print.pdf

By data you mean these publicly acessible MHRA safety reports that confirm types and rates of reactions in line with what was observed in the phase III clinical trial which is why UK and no serious scientific or medical expert there has raised any concern about the AZ vaccine programme.
It's a simple compilation of raw data with no interpretation or statistics (it is literally just adding up totals of received ‘yellow cards’). You're suggesting that this raw data revealed that there was something untoward going on with the safety reports, all I can see is data in line with previously published expectations.
This really is desperate stuff on your part.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Wahaay said:


> https://assets.publishing.service.g...VID-19_AstraZeneca_Vaccine_Analysis_Print.pdf
> 
> By data you mean these publicly acessible MHRA safety reports that confirm types and rates of reactions in line with what was observed in the phase III clinical trial which is why UK and no serious scientific or medical expert there has raised any concern about the AZ vaccine programme.
> It's a simple compilation of raw data with no interpretation or statistics (it is literally just adding up totals of received ‘yellow cards’). You're suggesting that this raw data revealed that there was something untoward going on with the safety reports, all I can see is data in line with previously published expectations.
> This really is desperate stuff on your part.


It reveals that 39 people died which is more than what you said which was no deaths.
It's not difficult to understand 39 is greater than 0

Are you suggesting that the MHRA system of reporting is flawed and those deaths didn't occur.?

Sorry I was incorrect it wasn't 39 its 275 deaths still larger than " no deaths". 
14 deep vein thrombosis too.


----------



## Merowig

Paul O Mahoney said:


> It reveals that 39 people died which is more than what you said which was no deaths.
> It's not difficult to understand 39 is greater than 0
> 
> Are you suggesting that the MHRA system of reporting is flawed and those deaths didn't occur.?
> 
> Sorry I was incorrect it wasn't 39 its 275 deaths still larger than " no deaths".
> 14 deep vein thrombosis too.


Yes the 14 cases of thrombosis in the UK as a result of AstraZeneca were also reported in the German media with the comment that the Uk possibly had more than that and were overlooked.
I have pointed further up already to these 14 cases which were ignored...


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Merowig said:


> Yes the 14 cases of thrombosis in the UK as a result of AstraZeneca were also reported in the German media with the comment that the Uk possibly had more than that and were overlooked.
> I have pointed further up already to these 14 cases which were ignored...


Their system of reporting is strange but thats the way they are doing it. It would appear that they expect people to log in and self report.


----------



## Sunny

The UK pause vaccines for under 50s because of reduction in supply and the need to give second doses.....well I am shocked. The renowned world leading vaccination expert Dr. Wahaay told me this wouldn't happen.........I am shocked. 



Wahaay said:


> The UK has up to 10 million vaccine doses on hand at the moment - there was a 2 week slowdown in supplies but as I reported upthread this has ended.
> The UK has a legally-agreed timetable with all the drug companies to ensure continued supplies and it expects all adults to have received their first dose by June without impinging on the timetable for second doses.


----------



## Merowig

__





						Science | AAAS
					






					www.sciencemag.org
				






> Arnold Ganser, a hematologist at Hannover Medical School, says he is treating another patient who developed CVT within days of vaccination. He says that patient appears to be suffering from another condition called atypical hemolytic uremic syndrome (HUS). (The patient, a woman older than 60, is not yet counted in the seven cases announced in Germany on Monday.)



The Article is not quite accurate in stating that the UK did not experience issues (the 14 cases mentioned) - other wise quite good of a summary.
The most likely course of action is that vaccination with AstraZeneca will resume - but perhaps targeting only older people.
Also more people will decline to get vaccinated with AstraZeneca.









						Corona-Impfstoff: Noch drei Monate warten auf Curevac
					

Mehr Tempo ist in Tübingen nicht in Sicht: Die neuen Virus-Varianten könnten die laufenden Studien bei Curevac beeinflussen. Den Anlegern scheint das nicht zu gefallen.




					www.faz.net
				



CureVac will likely be available from May or June onwards.
I think my vaccines of choice will be CureVac and secondly Pfizer.


----------



## Kimmagegirl

Do you constantly have to resort to these type of comments. So tired of the half dozen or so posters who are constantly making their smart alec remarks and belittling other posters.  AAM is not a nice place any more because of it.

Sunny says....."The UK pause vaccines for under 50s because of reduction in supply and the need to give second doses.....well I am shocked. The renowned world leading vaccination expert Dr. Wahaay told me this wouldn't happen.........I am shocked."


----------



## Sunny

Kimmagegirl said:


> Do you constantly have to resort to these type of comments. So tired of the half dozen or so posters who are constantly making their smart alec remarks and belittling other posters.  AAM is not a nice place any more because of it.
> 
> Sunny says....."The UK pause vaccines for under 50s because of reduction in supply and the need to give second doses.....well I am shocked. The renowned world leading vaccination expert Dr. Wahaay told me this wouldn't happen.........I am shocked."



Hey, not belittling anyone but if someone spends weeks stating opinion as fact despite being constantly called out on it. And if they continuously engage in attempts to shape these discussions and accuse people of anglophpbia and being anti brit and other nonsense. And if they call other posters opinions idiotic, then I am not going to apologise for that post. People get the respect here they deserve. If waahay wants to take offense, that it is up them. He has already accused me of being anti brit despite not knowing anything about me or my English wife and half English kids....So I really couldn't care less.

Just spare me the UK great, EU overlords bad rubbish. I don't read the daily mail for a reason.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Sunny said:


> Just spare me the UK great, EU overlords bad rubbish. I don't read the daily mail for a reason.


They were first out of the blocks with the headline that van de Leyen was the cause of the UK not getting supply in April until of course the real issue came to light which is India.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Covid-19: EU states to resume AstraZeneca vaccine rollout
					

Germany, France, Italy and Spain will restart vaccinations after a regulator says it is "safe".



					www.bbc.com
				




As many would have thought the EMA has said the AZ vaccine is safe but it will keep eyes on any further unusual side-effects. 
Let's rock on HSE


----------



## Merowig

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Covid-19: EU states to resume AstraZeneca vaccine rollout
> 
> 
> Germany, France, Italy and Spain will restart vaccinations after a regulator says it is "safe".
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As many would have thought the EMA has said the AZ vaccine is safe but it will keep eyes on any further unusual side-effects.
> Let's rock on HSE


The ultimate decision will be with the different countries. I believe most will resume the program - some might pause longer  (Norway possibly).


----------



## michaelm

France recommends AstraZeneca jab for over-55s only


----------



## Merowig

Finland suspends AstraZeneca jab despite European regulator's advice
					

Finland's public health authority said the jab would be halted "until there is more information and a possible causality can be assessed".




					www.euronews.com
				




Finland announced they will halt vaccinations with AstraZeneca and Denmark, Sweden and Norway announced they will not resume vaccinations with it despite of what EMA said.


----------



## odyssey06

Note that the AZ vaccine hasn't been approved yet in the US.
_
Results from the long-awaited US trial of the Oxford-AstraZeneca Covid vaccine are out and confirm that the shot is both safe and highly effective. 
More than 32,000 volunteers took part, mostly in America, but also in Chile and Peru.
The vaccine was 79% effective against stopping symptomatic Covid disease and 100% effective at preventing people from falling seriously ill.
And there were no safety issues regarding blood clots... Around a fifth of the volunteers in this trial were over 65 and the vaccine - given as two doses, four weeks apart - provided as much protection to them as to younger age groups._









						Covid vaccine: US trial of AstraZeneca jab confirms safety
					

Regulators in America have been waiting for these results to decide on approval.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## EasilyAmused

Nearly everyone in Israel has had at least one vaccine jab and the Rnumber is estimated to be 0.62. 
I’m no authority, but that reads very high under the circumstances. IIRC it was lower than that here in July.


----------



## Merowig

Looks like the number is 60% with 1 dose
The percentage of fully vaccinated people is 52%

Tel Aviv is partying again https://twitter.com/3Myriam1/status/1371552085687291906

I would also look more into mortality than the R-Number


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Covid vaccines: EU tussle with UK over AstraZeneca escalates
					

A row over AstraZeneca vaccine supplies has soured post-Brexit relations, Katya Adler writes.



					www.bbc.com
				




This is a good summary( if a little UK sided)of the stances of the EU and the UK regarding the AZ debacle. It will be interesting to see how it pans out.

My personal view is that someone needs to press the reset button given nothing is going to change the last 3 months. 

If this continues to escalate it'll simply prolong the " rollout " across Europe where signs of infections are again on the rise.


----------



## Barbarossa82

Paul O Mahoney said:


> It reveals that 39 people died which is more than what you said which was no deaths.
> It's not difficult to understand 39 is greater than 0
> 
> Are you suggesting that the MHRA system of reporting is flawed and those deaths didn't occur.?
> 
> Sorry I was incorrect it wasn't 39 its 275 deaths still larger than " no deaths".
> 14 deep vein thrombosis too.


Sorry I was scanning that file but couldn't find the 14 cases of thrombosis - could you perhaps pinpoint it to me?


----------



## joe sod

I just think there must be something else going in the background with the UK  EU dispute over vaccines. I agree it is in nobody's interest if things escalate. It must be the case that the UK are looking for something else in exchange for vaccines. Ursula von der Lyons is the one under the most pressure though,  blaming the UK for everything doesn't ring through. Why for example is she not putting pressure on joe Biden to share the us az vaccines which they are not even using. There is obviously stuff they do not wish to discuss openly


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Barbarossa82 said:


> Sorry I was scanning that file but couldn't find the 14 cases of thrombosis - could you perhaps pinpoint it to me?


Start from the bottom and slowly work your way up .......from memory that's the easiest way to read it.

Edit: That report has been updated and its format changed. Bottom of page 1 refers to Thrombosis....


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

joe sod said:


> I just think there must be something else going in the background with the UK  EU dispute over vaccines. I agree it is in nobody's interest if things escalate. It must be the case that the UK are looking for something else in exchange for vaccines. Ursula von der Lyons is the one under the most pressure though,  blaming the UK for everything doesn't ring through. Why for example is she not putting pressure on joe Biden to share the us az vaccines which they are not even using. There is obviously stuff they do not wish to discuss openly


She isn't blaming the UK , actually nobody is......this is an Astrazeneca issue.


----------



## EasilyAmused

Neither the U.K. nor the U.S.A are exporting vaccines. Everything produced within their borders stays within their borders. 
The E.U. is the biggest producer of Covid-19 vaccines but it has exported vaccines to dozens of countries outside of its borders. 

Vaccine nationalism has been a huge factor in the successful rollout of vaccines in the U.K. and the U.S.A.


----------



## odyssey06

EasilyAmused said:


> Neither the U.K. nor the U.S.A are exporting vaccines. Everything produced within their borders stays within their borders.
> The E.U. is the biggest producer of Covid-19 vaccines but it has exported vaccines to dozens of countries outside of its borders.
> 
> Vaccine nationalism has been a huge factor in the successful rollout of vaccines in the U.K. and the U.S.A.



The UK has exported vital components of the pfizer vaccine to the EU, and components for other vaccines which form an essential part of the supply chain for the vaccines distributed in the EU (and UK).
The USA has an export ban. The UK does not. 
There are questions about Astrazeneca production.


----------



## Sunny

This is a good article on the difference between the UK and EU contracts. While the UK doesn't have an export ban, it's contracts with AZ means exactly that. UK production is for UK demand and any shortfall must be made up from other locations including the EU. Morally, it is vaccine nationalism just like export bans but from a legal and common sense point of view, they wiped the floor with the EU because they looked at the entire supply chain.









						How the UK gained an edge with AstraZeneca’s vaccine commitments
					

A comparison of the UK and EU contracts shows that London’s deal has extra teeth.




					www.politico.eu


----------



## odyssey06

Sunny said:


> This is a good article on the difference between the UK and EU contracts. While the UK doesn't have an export ban, it's contracts with AZ means exactly that. UK production is for UK demand and any shortfall must be made up from other locations including the EU. Morally, it is vaccine nationalism just like export bans but from a legal and common sense point of view, they wiped the floor with the EU because they looked at the entire supply chain.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How the UK gained an edge with AstraZeneca’s vaccine commitments
> 
> 
> A comparison of the UK and EU contracts shows that London’s deal has extra teeth.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.politico.eu


It is a very good article on the contract differences.
It does mean in effect AZ production is prioritised for UK. There is no export ban, it is that the AZ contract has committed them to prioritising UK supply.
But where does the article say that "UK production is for UK demand"?


----------



## Sunny

odyssey06 said:


> It is a very good article on the contract differences.
> It does mean in effect AZ production is prioritised for UK. There is no export ban, it is that the AZ contract has committed them to prioritising UK supply.
> But where does the article say that "UK production is for UK demand"?



Because all UK production has to meet the UK's demand until the UK's order is complete. So if the UK have ordered 200m doses and UK production is 50m each month for the next four months, then there is no room for AZ to use UK production for other regions until the UK order is complete. It is a de facto export ban. They can't give 40m to the UK and 10m to the EU each month. It looks like the UK were very clever and aggressive with their contract negotiations compared to the EU.


----------



## Purple

Sunny said:


> It looks like the UK were very clever and aggressive with their contract negotiations compared to the EU.


When you sup with the Devil you use a long spoon; bring back CJ; he would have got it right.


----------



## odyssey06

Sunny said:


> Because all UK production has to meet the UK's demand until the UK's order is complete. So if the UK have ordered 200m doses and UK production is 50m each month for the next four months, then there is no room for AZ to use UK production for other regions until the UK order is complete. It is a de facto export ban. They can't give 40m to the UK and 10m to the EU each month. It looks like the UK were very clever and aggressive with their contract negotiations compared to the EU.



"UK production must meet UK demand" is not the same as "UK production must only be for UK demand".
UK production is needed to meet UK demand.
Yes, in practice, it means no vaccines are exported but it is not an export ban.
If AZ had the vaccines in sufficient quantities they could export them.

While the UK were very clever in the contract negotiations and the EU seem inexperienced (and UK contract law favours the buyer) the significance of the UK contract should have been declared by AZ to the EU during negotiations and they may run into trouble on the 'good faith' argument there (in Belgian law).


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

I'm still of the opinion that AZ should have declared that they were in effect bound to supply the UK even from European plants first .

Negotiations are a tough exercise and while one negotiates to get the best deal any factor that prohibits the reasonable execution of any contract should be highlighted. 

I still find it odd that the UK officially signed off on their contract a day after the EU, eventough they had legal "heads of agreement " done in May. AZ still took over €350m for the same purposes that the UK gave money. Best efforts isn't approximately 30% of contracted quantity and late notice of delays , days , isn't a professional way of doing business. 

Of course these are moot points and it's more important to find a solution and dial down the rethoric and get an agreement that guarantees Qtr 2 supplies at the bare minimum.


----------



## Sunny

I never said it is an export ban. I said it is a de facto export ban. If the EU had signed the same contracts with suppliers as the UK did, there would be no vaccines going to the UK which is not currently the case or to any other Country because all the manufacturers would be using all their EU production to meet EU demand. So there would have been no need for the EU to put in place an export ban. Just like there is no need for the UK to put in an export ban. Instead they get to slam the EU for talking about export bans when millions of vaccines have gone from the EU to the UK with zero vaccines going from the UK to the EU.

There is plenty of blame in all this go around. To be fair to AZ, they more than likely didn't forsee the production problems just like the EU didn't. The EU contracts seem vague in comparison to the UK ones. The UK were pretty ruthless with vaccines from day 1. They prevented US drug firms from partnering with Oxford to produce the vaccines because they didn't trust (rightly) that would be able to access US produced supplies. Then the EU seem to have signed away their right to take legal action over delivery delays which to a layperson like me sounds crazy. The EU seem to have been too nice to be honest.....

I agree though that this fighting achieves nothing.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Sunny said:


> There is plenty of blame in all this go around. To be fair to AZ, they more than likely didn't forsee the production problems just like the EU didn't. The EU contracts seem vague in comparison to the UK ones. The UK were pretty ruthless with vaccines from day 1. They prevented US drug firms from partnering with Oxford to produce the vaccines because they didn't trust (rightly) that would be able to access US produced supplies. Then the EU seem to have signed away their right to take legal action over delivery delays which to a layperson like me sounds crazy. The EU seem to have been too nice to be honest.....
> 
> I agree though that this fighting achieves nothing.


But Sunny there aren't any production problems really, the 4 EU based plants that belong to AZ are producing as there hasn't been any supply issues to the UK , and of course those EU based plants are exporting to other countries eg Australia.

The only supply issue now for the UK and by extension the EU is India. I mean the EU are getting AZ vaccines from India when in reality the European plants could supply the EU and the UK could be supplied with excess and all the production that she has, there apparently is another plant in the UK that was meant to be operating now but there is no news on that ?

For all the money AZ received, and that includes $1bn from the US administration they seem to be one country centric at the moment.

You can see the EUs frustration.....


----------



## odyssey06

Paul O Mahoney said:


> But Sunny there aren't any production problems really, the 4 EU based plants that belong to AZ are producing as there hasn't been any supply issues to the UK , and of course those EU based plants are exporting to other countries eg Australia.
> 
> The only supply issue now for the UK and by extension the EU is India. I mean the EU are getting AZ vaccines from India when in reality the European plants could supply the EU and the UK could be supplied with excess and all the production that she has, there apparently is another plant in the UK that was meant to be operating now but there is no news on that ?
> 
> For all the money AZ received, and that includes $1bn from the US administration they seem to be one country centric at the moment.
> 
> You can see the EUs frustration.....



The US has 30 million doses of AZ they are sitting on as AZ goes through approval there. 
Another 20 million is nearly ready.
The US has ok'd the release of 5 million of these to neighbouring countries.
So it's not all about the UK.

But there seems to be reports on Twitter some sort of olive branch emerging around the stockpile at the Halix plant in the Netherlands being shared by the EU and UK.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

odyssey06 said:


> The US has 30 million doses of AZ they are sitting on as AZ goes through approval there.
> Another 20 million is nearly ready.
> The US has ok'd the release of 5 million of these to neighbouring countries.
> So it's not all about the UK.
> 
> But there seems to be reports on Twitter some sort of olive branch emerging around the stockpile at the Halix plant in the Netherlands being shared by the EU and UK.


Oh I think a compromise will be found.

I tried linking a story on Fierce Pharma apparently some agency in the US aren't very happy with AZs data in the trial. Even Fauci has had a go.


----------



## joe sod

Sunny said:


> I never said it is an export ban. I said it is a de facto export ban. If the EU had signed the same contracts with suppliers as the UK did,


That gets to the heart of the matter why didn't the EU do that ?, it was hardly because of money 350 million is small change to the EU especially as it has its own currency the euro. Were the people at the heart of this "completely inept" or was it because of "identity politics", the EU did not want to be seen to be looking for exclusivity above less developed countries. If that is the case then Boris Johnson will put the UK first, Donald Trump put the US first (it was Trump administration that negotiated the US contracts) but the EU does not put Europe first !!


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

joe sod said:


> That gets to the heart of the matter why didn't the EU do that , it was hardly because of money 350 million is small change to the EU especially as it has its own currency the euro. Were the people at the heart of this "completely inept" or was it because of "identity politics", the EU did not want to be seen to be looking for exclusivity above less developed countries. If that is the case then Boris Johnson will put the UK first, Donald Trump put the US first (it was Trump administration that negotiated the US contracts) but the EU does not put Europe first !!


Read the Article Joe, it explains the differences in law , I mean how could the EU negotiate under British law?


----------



## odyssey06

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Read the Article Joe, it explains the differences in law , I mean how could the EU negotiate under British law?


Would Irish contract law be more like UK law I wonder... will this issue trip up EU contracts beyond vaccines. UK contracts seem stronger for buyers.

And in this specific instance they were negotiating with a company based in UK. Maybe on that basis UK law could have been used.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

odyssey06 said:


> Would Irish contract law be more like UK law I wonder... will this issue trip up EU contracts beyond vaccines. UK contracts seem stronger for buyers.
> 
> And in this specific instance they were negotiating with a company based in UK. Maybe on that basis UK law could have been used.


I don't think you can do that the contract is usually enforceable in the " country " where the buyer resides/is. I dunno 

Irish law does mirror UK laws in huge areas but we also have EU law on our statutory books so really dunno.


----------



## Sunny

Paul O Mahoney said:


> But Sunny there aren't any production problems really, the 4 EU based plants that belong to AZ are producing as there hasn't been any supply issues to the UK , and of course those EU based plants are exporting to other countries eg Australia.
> 
> The only supply issue now for the UK and by extension the EU is India. I mean the EU are getting AZ vaccines from India when in reality the European plants could supply the EU and the UK could be supplied with excess and all the production that she has, there apparently is another plant in the UK that was meant to be operating now but there is no news on that ?
> 
> For all the money AZ received, and that includes $1bn from the US administration they seem to be one country centric at the moment.
> 
> You can see the EUs frustration.....



I can see the EU's frustration but from the outside it looks like they negotiated based on goodwill and without due diligence. The European plants are producing but they are not producing the expected yields. Or at least one plant in Belgium isn't which is where the initial production shortfall is. The difference is that the EU can't access the vaccines produced in the UK and the UK seem to have a contractual right to vaccines produced in the EU if there are shortfalls with UK production.

So I can understand the frustration of the EU when they are forced to use the term export bans when unlike the UK,  they are exporting huge amounts of raw materials and finished vaccines to the UK and the rest of the world and they feel like other Countries aren't living up to the same  standards.

The US is a disgrace. Sitting on millions of doses that are not even approved?? They lend 5m doses to Mexico and Canada but why not lend out the entire 30m now. We could take those 30m doses and vaccinate today. The US can get the doses back out of the future deliveries promised to the EU.

Everyone worked together to develop vaccines but national interests seem to be taking over. God help poorer countries if it turns out we all need to be getting vaccinated every year.

On the contracts issue, what law the contract is enforceable under is simply a contract clause. Two foreign companies can still use English law in their contracts as long as they define a process agent in the UK who will accept being served on their behalf in the event of a dispute. Most large contracts across jurisdictions are performed under English law.


----------



## joe sod

Sunny said:


> The US is a disgrace. Sitting on millions of doses that are not even approved?? They lend 5m doses to Mexico and Canada but why not lend out the entire 30m now. We could take those 30m doses and vaccinate today. The US can get the doses back out of the future deliveries promised to the EU.


exactly I cannot understand why a bigger issue is not being made of this, Joe Biden is completely reneging on his inauguration speech


----------



## Merowig

I assume the US tries to ramp up distribution first and do not want to risk any future shortfall in AstraZenecas output.
It is their right to hoard as many vaccines they want too. They are not responsible for the incompetence in the EU or elsewhere.


----------



## odyssey06

joe sod said:


> exactly I cannot understand why a bigger issue is not being made of this, Joe Biden is completely reneging on his inauguration speech


At least the UK are using the AZ doses... and given our close proximity we at least get some indirect benefit from that in terms of reduced transmission.


----------



## tomdublin

odyssey06 said:


> The US has 30 million doses of AZ they are sitting on as AZ goes through approval there.
> Another 20 million is nearly ready.
> The US has ok'd the release of 5 million of these to neighbouring countries.


At last week's shamrock summit Ireland could have asked to borrow some of those AZ vaccines from the US but of course it didn't.  Just too much hassle..


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

tomdublin said:


> At last week's shamrock summit Ireland could have asked to borrow some of those AZ vaccines from the US but of course it didn't.  Just too much hassle..


Well that's incorrect, MM made enquiries the week before and the US told him / his department that the US didn't have any to give.
If they did "loan " say a million doses how long would it take to return that given we are at present only getting a minimum amount from AZ.
Every year our governments are publicly derided when they travel to countries to talk up Ireland , while this year the physical aspect was halted people are still unhappy. 
Another thing what would the EU have viewed this?


----------



## EasilyAmused

tomdublin said:


> At last week's shamrock summit Ireland could have asked to borrow some of those AZ vaccines from the US but of course it didn't.  Just too much hassle..


 The U.S.A. has a Covid-19 vaccine export ban.


----------



## odyssey06

EasilyAmused said:


> The U.S.A. has a Covid-19 vaccine export ban.


Yes but they 'loaned' 5 million doses out to Canada and Mexico to be replenished from those countries future supply.
Obviously it makes more sense to loan them to next door countries.
The suggestion was that Ireland should seek some amount on same basis, based on what we're expecting from AZ.


----------



## joe sod

"Another thing what would the EU have viewed this "

Yes you have nailed it, that is the main reason he did not ask Joe Biden for vaccines,  he did not want to embarrass the EU. But that proves that politics trumps the corona virus all throughout the pandemic. I also think Joe Biden did not want Martin to draw attention to the issue of the US  hoarding vaccines.


----------



## joe sod

EasilyAmused said:


> The U.S.A. has a Covid-19 vaccine export ban.


Oh and that's ok is it, we are not supposed  to mention it then just accept it as a fait accompli


----------



## tomdublin

joe sod said:


> Yes you have nailed it, that is the main reason he did not ask Joe Biden for vaccines, he did not want to embarrass the EU


Several EU states are currently looking for additional supplies so the EU's embarrassment would have been limited.  It's more that the government seems quite comfortable with the current situation.   The slow trickle of vaccine arrivals doesn't drag the HSE out of its comfort zone while the government can blame it all on AZ and the EU.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

joe sod said:


> "Another thing what would the EU have viewed this "
> 
> Yes you have nailed it, that is the main reason he did not ask Joe Biden for vaccines,  he did not want to embarrass the EU. But that proves that politics trumps the corona virus all throughout the pandemic. I also think Joe Biden did not want Martin to draw attention to the issue of the US  hoarding vaccines.


Ah here Joe this is just fantasy. The US aren't hoarding vaccines AZ are producing vaccines in order to fulfil its contract and prior to approval by the FDA.
This is exactly the same as Pfizer, Johnson and Johnson, Moderna did at the end of last year.
I'll repeat..... AZ took $1bn to ramp up its operations and provide vaccines to the US its that simple, no embarrassment no political manoeuvring just simple contracts and the US creating surety of supply for its 350m plus citizens.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

tomdublin said:


> Several EU states are currently looking for additional supplies so the EU's embarrassment would have been limited.  It's more that the government seems quite comfortable with the current situation.   The slow trickle of vaccine arrivals doesn't drag the HSE out of its comfort zone while the government can blame it all on AZ and the EU.


And yet upto 14th of March the HSE received 754000 doses and administered 617000 or 82% . Is that staying within its "comfort zone "?
Why would you suggest that the Government and the HSE are satisfied with this, given that they have repeatedly aired their collective frustration with AZ in particular.


----------



## Sunny

The US have done what the UK have done. Despite being large producers and suppliers to the world for pharmaceutical products, they have designed contracts that prevent the exporting of vaccines unless the US supply has been met. Meanwhile the EU despite only receiving a fraction of promised vaccines has exported over 40m vaccines outside the EU including over 10m vaccines to the UK and over 1m doses to the US.  This is more than likely going to impact the supply of Johnson and Johnson vaccine to the EU as they won't be able to use US supply lines. If the EU had done what the US and the UK had done with those contracts, most of the rest of the world would be waiting a very long time for a any vaccine. 

The US are sitting on stockpiles of millions of doses that they haven't even approved. They have been sitting on those doses for weeks. They could have lent those 30m doses and got them into peoples arms weeks ago if they were so inclined. All it needed was cooperation. EU countries are also sitting on millions of unused vaccines so maybe it is time for the EU to start getting their own act together as well. Developing vaccines in such a short space of time was a huge success and an example of what can be achieved but the vaccine roll out is beginning to bring out the worst in humanity again.


----------



## odyssey06

Paul O Mahoney said:


> And yet upto 14th of March the HSE received 754000 doses and administered 617000 or 82% . Is that staying within its "comfort zone "?
> Why would you suggest that the Government and the HSE are satisfied with this, given that they have repeatedly aired their collective frustration with AZ in particular.


Denmark took up options on Pfizer doses other EU countries declined.
I think questions have to be asked why we didn't look into that.


----------



## tomdublin

People who know quite a lot about this seem to agree that the HSE would struggle to keep up with a significant increase in vaccine arrivals.  The promised IT system isn't functional, the vaccinator recruitment programme has almost collapsed amidst its bureaucratic morass, pharmacies designated as "community vaccination centres" haven't been told yet, no plans yet for reaching those who don't have a GP, etc. etc.  Promises that one million people per month will be vaccinated are not credible.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

odyssey06 said:


> Denmark took up options on Pfizer doses other EU countries declined.
> I think questions have to be asked why we didn't look into that.


If they did its not apparent from the EU data, Denmark has received 934000  again upto 14th of March which would be in line with population.

Edit: Denmark has 12.5% first doses administered and we have 12% (14/3).
Just adding this for information.


----------



## Sunny

tomdublin said:


> People who know quite a lot about this seem to agree that the HSE would struggle to keep up with a significant increase in vaccine arrivals.  The promised IT system isn't functional, the vaccinator recruitment programme has almost collapsed amid its bureaucratic morass, pharmacies designated as "community vaccination centres" haven't been told yet, nobody has figured out how to reach those who don't have a permanent GP, etc. etc.  Claims that one million people per month will be vaccinated are not credible.



Yeah, I wouldn't have much faith either. It's pure pot luck what GP you are with. I know of a household with two people where the wife is 75 and the husband is 83 and recovering from a stroke. They have different GP's in Dublin. The wife got offered a vaccine before the husband. When she asked if the vaccine could be given to her husband, she was told no and that he will be contacted by his GP. She just about got over that when she heard her 22 year old grand daughter working in an accounts department in a hospital got vaccinated. That sent her over the edge.


----------



## odyssey06

Paul O Mahoney said:


> If they did its not apparent from the EU data, Denmark has received 934000  again upto 14th of March which would be in line with population.


Some countries didn't take their full allocation of Pfizer and Moderna as they were more expensive than AZ
e.g. Poland took 6 million out of 13 million option.
Portugal, Bulgaria, Greece, Belgium likewise didn't take up their full allocations by population.

Germany and Denmark are taking up that allocation.








						Thanks to deep pockets, Germany snaps up extra coronavirus jabs
					

Some EU countries bet too heavily on the Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine.




					www.politico.eu
				




In quarter 2, Denmark will be getting 200,000 per week in April from Pfizer, but it's not totally clear if that is the initial common EU allocation or includes some of these additional doses.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

odyssey06 said:


> Some countries didn't take their full allocation of Pfizer and Moderna as they were more expensive than AZ
> e.g. Poland took 6 million out of 13 million option.
> Germany and Denmark are taking up that allocation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks to deep pockets, Germany snaps up extra coronavirus jabs
> 
> 
> Some EU countries bet too heavily on the Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.politico.eu
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In quarter 2, Denmark will be getting 200,000 per week in April from Pfizer, but it's not totally clear if that is the initial common EU allocation or includes some of these additional doses.


Thanks Never knew about this.


----------



## joe sod

I have to say quite an interesting thread now finding out alot of things that are not being widely reported. It's obvious that vaccine procurement and roll out has become deeply political. There will be big casualties (political ones) as a result of this.


----------



## odyssey06

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Thanks Never knew about this.


Apparently we did chase this up but were too late to the 'vaccine bazaar' and only managed to get 138,000 extra doses.


----------



## odyssey06

Details on proposed new export regulations from European Commission:
_
The new regulation will go substantially further than the initial export control mechanism imposed by the Commission in January, which allowed EU countries or the Commission to block shipments only of vaccines made by companies that were failing to fulfill their contractual obligations to the EU. The new rules will add provisions to cover the concepts of "*reciprocity*" and "*proportionality*," a senior EU official said late Tuesday — meaning that shipments could be blocked to countries where vaccines are produced but that don't show reciprocity by exporting doses, as well as to countries that have managed to achieve far higher vaccination rates among their population than the EU.
On both counts, this would potentially allow the Commission to block shipments to the U.K. not only of the AstraZeneca vaccine, given that company's failure to deliver promised doses, but also of vaccines made by BioNTech/Pfizer and Moderna._









						European Commission to propose tougher vaccine export rules
					

Formal proposal follows days of threats and complaints about UK refusing to show ‘reciprocity.’




					www.politico.eu


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

odyssey06 said:


> Details on proposed new export regulations from European Commission:
> 
> _The new regulation will go substantially further than the initial export control mechanism imposed by the Commission in January, which allowed EU countries or the Commission to block shipments only of vaccines made by companies that were failing to fulfill their contractual obligations to the EU. The new rules will add provisions to cover the concepts of "*reciprocity*" and "*proportionality*," a senior EU official said late Tuesday — meaning that shipments could be blocked to countries where vaccines are produced but that don't show reciprocity by exporting doses, as well as to countries that have managed to achieve far higher vaccination rates among their population than the EU.
> On both counts, this would potentially allow the Commission to block shipments to the U.K. not only of the AstraZeneca vaccine, given that company's failure to deliver promised doses, but also of vaccines made by BioNTech/Pfizer and Moderna._
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> European Commission to propose tougher vaccine export rules
> 
> 
> Formal proposal follows days of threats and complaints about UK refusing to show ‘reciprocity.’
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.politico.eu


If the EU do this it's akin to hitting a hornets nest with a stick.
The efforts of everyone should be to fix the issues that are causing the problems. That Dutch plant is due to be authorised by the EMA tomorrow, wheres the update on that?


----------



## odyssey06

Paul O Mahoney said:


> If the EU do this it's akin to hitting a hornets nest with a stick.
> The efforts of everyone should be to fix the issues that are causing the problems. That Dutch plant is due to be authorised by the EMA tomorrow, wheres the update on that?


I am hoping they are waving a big stick around so they don't have to use it...

Good point on the supply issues but no new news on authorisation of the Halix plant afaik.


----------



## EasilyAmused

Boris Johnson has attributed the U.K.’s enviable Covid-19 vaccine rollout success to capitalism and greed.


----------



## Merowig

Italian authorities discover 29M Oxford/AstraZeneca doses: La Stampa
					

Discovery comes as AstraZeneca faces harsh criticism over delivery shortfalls.




					www.politico.eu
				




Allegedly to another Article these are for export to the UK - and France and Italy want to stop any deliveries.


----------



## Sunny

This is going to get very messy. The fight will move from finished vaccines to raw materials and will endanger all vaccine production. Time for political leaders to actually show leadership. Comments out of London and EU overnight don't inspire confidence though


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Merowig said:


> Italian authorities discover 29M Oxford/AstraZeneca doses: La Stampa
> 
> 
> Discovery comes as AstraZeneca faces harsh criticism over delivery shortfalls.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.politico.eu
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Allegedly to another Article these are for export to the UK - and France and Italy want to stop any deliveries.


Reading that simply shows that there is very little production problems within the AZ network, despite AZ saying that yields were not what they forecasted.

The EU better authorise that plant pronto.


----------



## odyssey06

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Reading that simply shows that there is very little production problems within the AZ network, despite AZ saying that yields were not what they forecasted.
> 
> The EU better authorise that plant pronto.


Apparently I am reading on twitter these doses were lined up for Canada and Mexico (not UK) and given the lower vaccination rates there would be 'exportable'


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

odyssey06 said:


> Apparently I am reading on twitter these doses were lined up for Canada and Mexico (not UK) and given the lower vaccination rates there would be 'exportable'


New York Times are quoting AZ 16m we're for Europe and 13m for Covax but no confirmation from AZ when asked.

I think we can all agree that they aren't exactly transparent.
The EU have also said that they weren't destined for the UK.


----------



## odyssey06

Paul O Mahoney said:


> New York Times are quoting AZ 16m we're for Europe and 13m for Covax but no confirmation from AZ when asked.
> 
> I think we can all agree that they aren't exactly transparent.
> The EU have also said that they weren't destined for the UK.


Reading between the lines, they are not being transparent as the UK has them locked into a watertight contract (under UK law).
And they didn't disclose this to the EU when signing the contract with them, BUT the penalties in the EU contract (Belgian law) are nothing like UK contract and that seems to be driving their priorities and behaviour like this.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

"March 24, 2021Updated 9:58 a.m. ET
BRUSSELS — A stockpile of 29 million doses of AstraZeneca’s Covid-19 vaccine that were found languishing in a facility in Italy became the new flash point on Wednesday in the conflict between the pharmaceutical company and the European Union, as the bloc prepared to unveil stringent export restrictions primarily meant to stop drugmakers from sending doses abroad.

The Italian authorities found the vaccines in a site visit, European Union officials said, at a factory near Rome that is contracted to fill and finish Covid-19 vaccine vials for AstraZeneca.
The Italian authorities went to the site after receiving an alert from the European Commission, which found a discrepancy between what the company said it was producing in European Union facilities, and what the facilities themselves were reporting.
The presence of so many doses raised suspicions that the pharmaceutical company was trying to find a way to export them to Britain or elsewhere, something the bloc has demanded that AstraZeneca stop doing until the company fulfills its promises for deliveries.
The European Union was meant to receive more than 100 million vaccine doses from AstraZeneca in the first quarter of this year, but has received only 16.6 million. The supply shortage has helped to derail vaccination efforts across the 27 member countries and contributed to embarrassingly slow inoculation rates on the continent.
What has most irked the European Union is that AstraZeneca has been consistently delivering on its contract with Britain while letting the bloc take the brunt of its production failures that have diminished supplies. AstraZeneca has denied it has violated its E.U. contract. The bloc took the first step last week to litigate the issue by activating an amicable dispute mechanism with AstraZeneca, but there is no indication either party intends to take it to court.
The bloc tried to force AstraZeneca to deliver more doses by introducing a system of export authorizations on Feb. 1, but only one AstraZeneca shipment, a small batch headed to Australia, has been blocked since that came into force."

My attempt at posting NY times story.


----------



## Sunny

The really bizarre part of all this is that AZ are supposedly producing this on a non-profit basis yet they seemed to have signed commercial contracts with the UK especially that contain heavy penalties for non delivery. So they are now in the middle of this storm for zero return. Whole thing is mad.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

With a Police Raid and the Threat of Export Curbs on Vaccines, the E.U. Plays Tough (Published 2021)
					

The bloc is tightening export rules in a bid to speed up its disappointing Covid inoculation campaign and stem political criticism.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

odyssey06 said:


> Reading between the lines, they are not being transparent as the UK has them locked into a watertight contract (under UK law).
> And they didn't disclose this to the EU when signing the contract with them, BUT the penalties in the EU contract (Belgian law) are nothing like UK contract and that seems to be driving their priorities and behaviour like this.


"Good faith" just became worthless and I can see the EU really going after them now and really "holding their hands in the fire".
I'm now thinking that this has a few more twists.
Edit;
Apparently this was known by the EU on Monday ......


----------



## EasilyAmused

Less than 10,000 AstraZeneca received by the HSE last week.  It really is time to ditch AZ and focus on Pfizer, J&J and Sputnik V.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

EasilyAmused said:


> Less than 10,000 AstraZeneca received by the HSE last week.  It really is time to ditch AZ and focus on Pfizer, J&J and Sputnik V.


Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. 
We had stock last week due to the delay and if the EU can come to some agreement with producers today we might see an improvement. 

Where did you get that figure from btw.


----------



## Sunny

I also find this part of the letter telling healthcare staff that they are closing the portal for vaccine applications staggering.....

"As of March 21 over 204,000 frontline healthcare workers had received their first dose vaccination. We have now significantly exceeded the original estimation of this group by more than 50,000 and are now in a position to begin to close out dose 1 vaccinations for this group"

How do they exceed the expected number of frontline healthcare staff by 50,000??? That should have been the cohort that was the easiest to manage numbers as it could be easily checked against employment records to have an estimated population size. Whatever about a couple of thousand, a mis-calculation of 50,000 on the size of the cohort suggests they either haven't got a clue or a very significant number of people who are not frontline healthcare staff got vaccinated.


----------



## EasilyAmused

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Where did you get that figure from btw.




Independent.ie









						HSE received just 9,600 doses of AstraZeneca vaccine last week – the lowest delivery to date
					

The HSE just received 9,600 doses of the Oxford AstraZeneca Covid-19 vaccine last week, the lowest delivery to date.




					www.independent.ie


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Sunny said:


> I also find this part of the letter telling healthcare staff that they are closing the portal for vaccine applications staggering.....
> 
> "As of March 21 over 204,000 frontline healthcare workers had received their first dose vaccination. We have now significantly exceeded the original estimation of this group by more than 50,000 and are now in a position to begin to close out dose 1 vaccinations for this group"
> 
> How do they exceed the expected number of frontline healthcare staff by 50,000??? That should have been the cohort that was the easiest to manage numbers as it could be easily checked against employment records to have an estimated population size. Whatever about a couple of thousand, a mis-calculation of 50,000 on the size of the cohort suggests they either haven't got a clue or a very significant number of people who are not frontline healthcare staff got vaccinated.


Carehome workers are included in that figure as far as I know and other community based health services.


----------



## Sunny

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Carehome workers are included in that figure as far as I know.



Some of them are but most were covered under Cohort 1 where instead of just vaccinating residents over 65 in nursing homes as planned, they vaccinated all residents and staff in nursing homes. But again, getting clarity is difficult.  Are we really saying that we under estimated the size of the cohort by 25%??? This wasn't a slight mis-calculation. We are talking about 50,000 front line employees that they weren't expecting. And remember that supposedly they didn't even start (I stress supposedly) healthcare workers not in direct patient or service user contact who weren't providing essential services. If this cohort was so difficult to control, wait until we start moving down the list.....


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Sunny said:


> Some of them are but most were covered under Cohort 1 where instead of just vaccinating residents over 65 in nursing homes as planned, they vaccinated all residents and staff in nursing homes. But again, getting clarity is difficult.  Are we really saying that we under estimated the size of the cohort by 25%??? This wasn't a slight mis-calculation. We are talking about 50,000 front line employees that they weren't expecting. And remember that supposedly they didn't even start (I stress supposedly) healthcare workers not in direct patient or service user contact who weren't providing essential services. If this cohort was so difficult to control, wait until we start moving down the list.....


No country has put figures on individual cohorts. Don't forget the HSE has a significant amount of contractor's, I know of someone who works in a HSE facility and is in contact with general public everyday and got his first jab.
Then of course there are cleaners etc again mostly contractor's and they would be in need of vaccination too as they are in hospitals and other medical facilities. 
At the end of the day the objective is to vaccinate everyone and there was always going to be issues like this.


----------



## Sunny

Paul O Mahoney said:


> No country has put figures on individual cohorts. Don't forget the HSE has a significant amount of contractor's, I know of someone who works in a HSE facility and is in contact with general public everyday and got his first jab.
> Then of course there are cleaners etc again mostly contractor's and they would be in need of vaccination too as they are in hospitals and other medical facilities.
> At the end of the day the objective is to vaccinate everyone and there was always going to be issues like this.



I don't want exact figures for cohorts but I want some sense of things are being controlled. If the HSE are telling us that they have given out 50,000 extra vaccines to a single cohort, I want to know if that is because they completely under estimated the size of the cohort or the vaccines are not being distributed in the way intended. The frontline healthcare workers is a relatively simple cohort to control. There are other frontline workers like Gardai perfectly entitled to ask how many of those extra 50k doses went to non frontline healthcare staff simply because they worked in a hospital or the HSE. There are plenty of people who are more at risk of covid than an 21 year old working in hospital accounts office (remotely) like my niece who has been vaccinated.


----------



## valery

Over 200000 people working in frontline healthcare is an staggeringly high percentage out of a workforce of 2.3 million


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Sunny said:


> I don't want exact figures for cohorts but I want some sense of things are being controlled. If the HSE are telling us that they have given out 50,000 extra vaccines to a single cohort, I want to know if that is because they completely under estimated the size of the cohort or the vaccines are not being distributed in the way intended. The frontline healthcare workers is a relatively simple cohort to control. There are other frontline workers like Gardai perfectly entitled to ask how many of those extra 50k doses went to non frontline healthcare staff simply because they worked in a hospital or the HSE. There are plenty of people who are more at risk of covid than an 21 year old working in hospital accounts office (remotely) like my niece who has been vaccinated.


Fine, but the cohort is named healthcare workers (HCW) and its a standardised category across the EU reporting system. 

I frankly fail to see an issue, if a person works in the health system, at any level,do they not satisfy the definition of being a health care worker?


----------



## valery

Group 2 is frontline healthcare workers

group 6 is other healthcare workers.

The priority given to “frontline” health care workers is absolutely correct.  But given the numbers currently vaccinated under this category it is possible that workers in group 6 have been prioritised also.


----------



## Sunny

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Fine, but the cohort is named healthcare workers (HCW) and its a standardised category across the EU reporting system.
> 
> I frankly fail to see an issue, if a person works in the health system, at any level,do they not satisfy the definition of being a health care worker?



Group 2 is FRONTLINE Health service workers and those providing essential services. Other workers in the health service are not even supposed to be registering for vaccines yet as mentioned above because they are in Group 6. Frankly, you might not see an issue with someone in their 20's being vaccinated simply because they they work in the health service but there are plenty of at risk front line workers in other sectors who might.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Sunny said:


> Group 2 is FRONTLINE Health service workers and those providing essential services. Other workers in the health service are not even supposed to be registering for vaccines yet as mentioned above because they are in Group 6. Frankly, you might not see an issue with someone in their 20's being vaccinated simply because they they work in the health service but there are plenty of at risk front line workers in other sectors who might.


In the overall strategy of vaccinating 3.76 million does it matter? 
And who decides what is essential?


----------



## RedOnion

Paul O Mahoney said:


> In the overall strategy of vaccinating 3.76 million does it matter?


You don't have a vulnerable parent in their 80's that hasn't been vaccinated yet I guess?


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

RedOnion said:


> You don't have a vulnerable parent in their 80's that hasn't been vaccinated yet I guess?


I do (81) and he's going in next week my mother 77 the same . Their GP retired and the new GP has had a few administration problems.

What do personal circumstances has to do with this discussion?


----------



## valery

“And who decides what is essential?”
It appears to be the HSE rather than the government, who after all, drew up the group guidelines.
If we have over 200000 frontline workers, how many other healthcare workers are left in group 6.  Are 10% + of workers really working in healthcare
Group 6 is still ahead of the Cabinet, Gardai who are tasked with the job of breaking up parties etc. or other frontline workers


----------



## RedOnion

Paul O Mahoney said:


> What do personal circumstances has to do with this discussion?


It doesn't. Given the usual high standard if you posting here, I was surprised by your suggestion that it doesn't matter what order people are vaccinated if the aim is to vaccinate everyone eventually.

With that attitude, you could ask what's the point in having cohorts at all - they should give the vaccine to whoever gets to the queue first every morning.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

RedOnion said:


> It doesn't. Given the usual high standard if you posting here, I was surprised by your suggestion that it doesn't matter what order people are vaccinated if the aim is to vaccinate everyone eventually.
> 
> With that attitude, you could ask what's the point in having cohorts at all - they should give the vaccine to whoever gets to the queue first every morning.


I simply take a pragmatic view I wish we had millions of vaccines every month and we were vaccinating en masse. 
But we don't and while there is much to criticise on many levels but once vaccines are in people's arms I find that's good news.
The cohorts were provisional and put together in early December on presumptions that supply would be even and sufficient the reality has been demonstrably different.


----------



## odyssey06

Paul O Mahoney said:


> I simply take a pragmatic view I wish we had millions of vaccines every month and we were vaccinating en masse.
> But we don't and while there is much to criticise on many levels but once vaccines are in people's arms I find that's good news.
> The cohorts were provisional and put together in early December on presumptions that supply would be even and sufficient the reality has been demonstrably different.


If we had millions of vaccines and everyone was going to be done in weeks I would agree... just roll it out asap.

But when the rollout will take months we have to ration the vaccines and that is the intent of the priority groupings. We shouldnt be leaving vulnerable people exposed.
If frontline HCW are vaccinated and the vaccine prevents transmission there is even less reason to vaccinate support HCW. The frontline vaccinated staff even though they may have  contact with support staff are protected - like a firewall.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

odyssey06 said:


> If we had millions of vaccines and everyone was going to be done in weeks I would agree... just roll it out asap.
> 
> But when the rollout will take months we have to ration the vaccines and that is the intent of the priority groupings. We shouldnt be leaving vulnerable people exposed.
> If frontline HCW are vaccinated and the vaccine prevents transmission there is even less reason to vaccinate support HCW. The frontline vaccinated staff even though they may have  contact with support staff are protected.


I agree with a lot of that but I think there has been "reclassification " going on .....I have downloaded the ECDC figures from week 7 and I can see for example the carehome figures reducing today week 11, I think carehome workers were reported in that and are now HCW.
As I said when you posted the estimated cohort figures from the Sunday Business Post they were the best we would ever get......and would change. 
I'll hazard a guess and say those cohorts aren't accurate


----------



## EmmDee

RedOnion said:


> You don't have a vulnerable parent in their 80's that hasn't been vaccinated yet I guess?



If you have that situation, it sounds like the problem is with the GP. All 4 parents in our family (in their 70's) have received their first jabs - they don't have specific vulnerabilities. A friend's sister is a GP and they have completed the 80's cohort in that practice and are working through the 70's. I know it can be a bit patchy but sounds like your parent's GP is behind the curve a bit


----------



## joe sod

Not been on the EU side when it comes to their handling of the vaccine rollout. However I actually do agree with their current approach of getting touch on vaccine exports outside Eu to countries that have more people vaccinated than us. I think they needed to get tough and they needed to target countries like the UK and US rather than confining it to Az. It's a much bigger issue than the specifics of the wording of a contract with one company. Targeting Az exclusively was a mistake. Also much bigger moral pressure needs to be put on joe Biden, why are they not been shown up? 
Despite what the contracts with the pharma companies say it was morally untenable that the UK would continue to vaccinate under 50s now while vulnerable over 80s in Europe were still not vaccinated 
 I think boris Johnson also understands this. However I also think moral pressure needs to be put on countries like the US,  Israel and Australia.


----------



## tomdublin

There are countries where people in positions of authority and trust who in effect steal vaccines so that their cronies can jump the vaccination queue risk imprisonment.  Going by today's news (and last week's news and the week before's news and last month's..) Ireland isn't among those countries.


----------



## Merowig

joe sod said:


> Not been on the EU side when it comes to their handling of the vaccine rollout. However I actually do agree with their current approach of getting touch on vaccine exports outside Eu to countries that have more people vaccinated than us. I think they needed to get tough and they needed to target countries like the UK and US rather than confining it to Az. It's a much bigger issue than the specifics of the wording of a contract with one company. Targeting Az exclusively was a mistake. Also much bigger moral pressure needs to be put on joe Biden, why are they not been shown up?
> Despite what the contracts with the pharma companies say it was morally untenable that the UK would continue to vaccinate under 50s now while vulnerable over 80s in Europe were still not vaccinated
> I think boris Johnson also understands this. However I also think moral pressure needs to be put on countries like the US,  Israel and Australia.


AstraZeneca will face fines if they renegade on their UK contract or the EU imposes an Export stop.
The EU is in no position to play here the moral card at all and it won't work.

Also why "moral pressure" on the US, the UK, Israel or Australia in the first place? And how would "moral pressure" work? The US government is responsible to the US population alone.

Any delay in vaccinations will cost the US/Israel etc billions in revenue and lives of their citizens. These countries were clever and understood that and therefore invested heavily, ordered early and pay a lot of extra money.  I would laugh off any "moral pressure"...
It reminds me of the fable of the Ant and the Grasshopper - the Ant represented by the UK/US/Israel - the Grasshopper by the EU....

Germany is still sitting here on unused vaccines for example... France and other countries dragged their feet when it came last year at ordering....
Looking for scapegoats abroad won't solve the problems.


----------



## Merowig

UK ‘to speed up Covid vaccine rollout’ as EU stops short of export ban
					

Communities Secretary Robert Jenrick said that more vaccination supplies were due to come on stream in the UK in coming months




					www.standard.co.uk
				




Looks like the EU might hurt itself if they try to impose a ban on the UK...


----------



## odyssey06

Merowig said:


> UK ‘to speed up Covid vaccine rollout’ as EU stops short of export ban
> 
> 
> Communities Secretary Robert Jenrick said that more vaccination supplies were due to come on stream in the UK in coming months
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.standard.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like the EU might hurt itself if they try to impose a ban on the UK...


If the EU impose an export ban on Pfizer to UK, the UK can withhold essential vaccine components (lipids?) from the EU.
The vaccines are produced in the EU but they get most of their supply of these components from outside the EU.
So while it is true the UK hasn't exported any vaccines, what's not mentioned is how many vaccines were made in the EU with difficult to source components sourced from UK or elsewhere.
_When the article mentions concerns from EU countries about supply chain disruption, that's what they mean I think, reading between the lines._


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

odyssey06 said:


> If the EU impose an export ban on Pfizer to UK, the UK can withhold essential vaccine components (lipids?) from the EU.
> The vaccines are produced in the EU but they get most of their supply of these components from outside the EU.
> So while it is true the UK hasn't exported any vaccines, what's not mentioned is how many vaccines were made in the EU with difficult to source components sourced from UK or elsewhere.
> _When the article mentions concerns from EU countries about supply chain disruption, that's what they mean I think, reading between the lines._


I think it's only one plant in Yorkshire that supply lipids to Pfizer.
On the broader issue I think the whole thing will calm down now......until AZ do something wrong again.


----------



## Merowig

Paul O Mahoney said:


> I think it's only one plant in Yorkshire that supply lipids to Pfizer.
> On the broader issue I think the whole thing will calm down now......until AZ do something wrong again.


The lipids necessary for the Pfizer vaccine are provided by the British company Croda from a site in the UK and a site in the US. If the EU would decide to go for an embargo of the UK it could end up itself with running out of the Pfizer vaccine. Nice shot in ones own foot if it comes that far.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Merowig said:


> The lipids necessary for the Pfizer vaccine are provided by the British company Croda from a site in the UK and a site in the US. If the EU would decide to go for an embargo of the UK it could end up itself with running out of the Pfizer vaccine. Nice shot in ones own foot if it comes that far.


They have clearly stated that there are no issues with Pfizer or its exports to the UK, they are simply trying to get AZ to stop putting other countries before the EU and for AZ to begin the process of making up for the massive shortages since approval.
The BBC this morning was in the Wrexham plant and it was clearly said that they had enough to meet AZs contracted requirements in the UK.


----------



## Merowig

The article on Sky from 2 days ago wasn't that optimistic
And AstraZeneca would likely become liable if the EU goes that route..









						COVID-19: What impact would an EU export ban have on the UK's vaccine programme?
					

The UK has until recently been largely self-sufficient in Oxford-AstraZeneca doses but there could be tougher times ahead.




					news.sky.com
				



"It could also ban the export of European-made components used in the AZ manufacturing process in the UK.

British government sources said they want to "lower the temperature" of the current rhetoric, but retaliation could see them restrict exports of components of the Pfizer vaccine manufactured here."


----------



## odyssey06

Paul O Mahoney said:


> They have clearly stated that there are no issues with Pfizer or its exports to the UK, they are simply trying to get AZ to stop putting other countries before the EU and for AZ to begin the process of making up for the massive shortages since approval.
> The BBC this morning was in the Wrexham plant and it was clearly said that they had enough to meet AZs contracted requirements in the UK.


I think that's the intention behind what they are trying to do, but I think there's an element of bluff to it.

The difficulty for the EU re: the proposed export ban to block just AZ as it talks about proportion of destination country vaccinated, number of cases there etc. Nothing in it specific to supplier. If they block AZ they would have to block Pfizer and vice versa.


----------



## joe sod

I see the beacon hospital now suspended from the vaccine program , is this a bit of a convenient scapegoat though, surely the main mess up was carried out by the HSE when they sent the same 200 people for vaccination in 2 locations. It was this mistake that ultimately led to the Beacon having 20 spare vaccines because probably they were not able to get 200 high priority stand ins in time. Im just speculating of course I don;t know the details. Also what about the teachers most of them probably far from high priority. I think all this talk of needing "vaccine passports" to go on holidays is creating a rat race for vaccines and creating demand from people that are not vulnerable


----------



## tomdublin

joe sod said:


> I think all this talk of needing "vaccine passports" to go on holidays is creating a rat race for vaccines


Yes and bringing in vaccination passports before everyone has had a chance to get vaccinated will exacerbate intergenerational hostility.  Younger generations who face little threat from Covid themselves are making enormous sacrifices to protect the elderly.  They will resent seeing older people jetting off on holidays while they themselves remain stuck in lockdown Ireland.  The government should either accelerate the vaccination programme (which, for reasons I don't understand, it seems unwilling to do) or delay vaccination passports.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

tomdublin said:


> The government should either accelerate the vaccination programme (which, for reasons I don't understand, it seems unwilling to do) or delay vaccination passports.


And how would they accelerate the vaccine programme given that we don't have the vaccines. The facts would totally refute your assertion that they are unwilling to do it.
This thread is now 50 pages and the situation regarding vaccine availability and rollout has been discussed/debated in greater detail than another outlet I know of and still some think the government is unwilling ?


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

joe sod said:


> I see the beacon hospital now suspended from the vaccine program , is this a bit of a convenient scapegoat though, surely the main mess up was carried out by the HSE when they sent the same 200 people for vaccination in 2 locations. It was this mistake that ultimately led to the Beacon having 20 spare vaccines because probably they were not able to get 200 high priority stand ins in time. Im just speculating of course I don;t know the details. Also what about the teachers most of them probably far from high priority. I think all this talk of needing "vaccine passports" to go on holidays is creating a rat race for vaccines and creating demand from people that are not vulnerable


So, an administration error affecting 200 people out of thousands who are vaccinated daily has now lead to scapegoating by the Government and HSE ......


----------



## tomdublin

Paul O Mahoney said:


> And how would they accelerate the vaccine programme given that we don't have the vaccines


By procuring additional vaccines from outside the EU programme like several other EU member states.  Every time the minister is asked about this he just flatly rules it out, no explanation given.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

tomdublin said:


> By procuring additional vaccines from outside the EU programme like several other EU member states.  Every time the minister is asked about this he just flatly rules it out, no explanation given.


Those vaccines aren't authorised. Some might take it but I can assure you that many wouldn't. 
There is a duty of care by the EU and Governments to ensure that vaccines are safe based on the criteria established by regulators.


----------



## SlugBreath

joe sod said:


> I see the beacon hospital now suspended from the vaccine program


Why?  To deflect away from the shambles of HSE management?  The Beacon would have been local to me and thousands of others. 

Will those people in the private school be eligible for their second vaccine or will it be refused?

How were people double booked for vaccinations?  I don't get two pizzas delivered, nor two requests to attend for my NCT, nor two passports when I order one....

The three boys having a smoke outside the quarantine hotel, were they all together.....social distancing?

This shambles has certainly taken over from the entertainment that Trump used to provide....except this time it's not funny.


----------



## tomdublin

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Those vaccines aren't authorised.


Sputnik V has applied for EMA authorization and experts say they are very likely to get it.  Sputnik can also be delivered on short notice.   Ireland could prepare for this by ordering these vaccines now so it's ready to go if and when EMA approval is forthcoming but the gov is refusing flat out.


----------



## EasilyAmused

Sputnik V is the first vaccine to be rolled out to civilians, is highly effective and has thrown up no problems. I’d have no issue with it.


----------



## odyssey06

If there is so much sputnik available for the EU why are so few Russians vaccinated. I doubt any real quantities are there until later in the year when not needed.


----------



## Sunny

tomdublin said:


> Sputnik V has applied for EMA authorization and experts say they are very likely to get it.  Sputnik can also be delivered on short notice.   Ireland could prepare for this by ordering these vaccines now so it's ready to go if and when EMA approval is forthcoming but the gov is refusing flat out.



Funny how we have people clammering to get their hands on this vaccine when Russia can't even vaccinate their own population. Even the Russians are reluctant to take it never mind the rubbish about all these supplies ready to be shipped to the rest of the world.

Vaccines are going to be used for geo political reasons. Russia will do it. China will do it. The US will do it. Britain will do it. The EU will do it. Even todays story about the UK giving Ireland 3.7m doses smacks of political games. Here are the 3.7 doses. Now about the Northern Ireland protocol.........


----------



## tomdublin

Sunny said:


> Funny how we have people clammering to get their hands on this vaccine when Russia can't even vaccinate their own population. Even the Russians are reluctant to take it never mind the rubbish about all these supplies ready to be shipped to the rest of the world.
> 
> Vaccines are going to be used for geo political reasons. Russia will do it. China will do it. The US will do it. Britain will do it. The EU will do it. Even todays story about the UK giving Ireland 3.7m doses smacks of political games. Here are the 3.7 doses. Now about the Northern Ireland protocol.........


If it gets approved by the EMA (or the FDA, British, Canadians, Swiss, Japanese, Australians, South Koreans etc.) it's safe enough for me.  Nobody should be forced to take it, just have the option.


----------



## joe sod

Sunny said:


> Vaccines are going to be used for geo political reasons. Russia will do it. China will do it. The US will do it. Britain will do it. The EU will do it. Even todays story about the UK giving Ireland 3.7m doses smacks of political games. Here are the 3.7 doses. Now about the Northern Ireland protocol.........


Yes I agree vaccines and their rollout are the most important political event in decades bigger than brexit and the government and the HSE are like a rabbit stuck in the headlights. They are afraid to play this for their own benefit or to foresee that this is what is going to happen. The fact is that the British have put these 3.7 m doses into play, the next move needs to come from Michael Martin, Sinn Fein can see this as an easy win for them, I heard Mary Lou saying that we should take the British offer and worry about the EU reaction later on. With the vaccine rollout in a shambles especially after the weekend with many older people desperately waiting for their vaccines Michael Martin has to be seen to be taking this offer seriously. The government needs to start taking risks now, they need to put nphet back in the backseat and take control of the situation themselves. Scaremongering and telling people that summer is cancelled is no longer acceptable


----------



## EasilyAmused

odyssey06 said:


> If there is so much sputnik available for the EU why are so few Russians vaccinated. I doubt any real quantities are there until later in the year when not needed.


 Russia only began mass vaccination this year but rolled it out abroad last summer, e.g. India.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

EasilyAmused said:


> Russia only began mass vaccination this year but rolled it out abroad last summer, e.g. India.


If that's the case why is India conducting phase 3 trials now and might approve it in the next few weeks?


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

odyssey06 said:


> If there is so much sputnik available for the EU why are so few Russians vaccinated. I doubt any real quantities are there until later in the year when not needed.


Exactly they hope to have third parties produce it like India .


----------



## johnwilliams

putin only got vaccinated last tuesday off camera, so its unknown if he actually got it ,there is also a story going around that if he had got it, then  it was likely a western vaccine  not a russian one


----------



## tomdublin

johnwilliams said:


> there is also a story going around that if he had got it, then it was likely a western vaccine not a russian one


If some people say that "there is a story going around" then what better proof could there be that the story is true.


----------



## EasilyAmused

tomdublin said:


> If some people say that "there is a story going around" then what better proof could there be that the story is true.



It’s just another case of Russophobia. Arguably the last great prejudice.


----------



## EmmDee

I have work colleagues in Hong Kong - they are very skeptical of the Chinese vaccine. They claim the pictures of the HK leaders getting vaccinated actually were getting the Pfizer jab.

The problem with regimes that are less than transparent is that there is little trust when it comes to things like vaccines


----------



## Purple

EasilyAmused said:


> It’s just another case of Russophobia. Arguably the last great prejudice.


That must be a big relief for Black people, gay people, trans people, Travellers, Jews etc.


----------



## EasilyAmused

Purple said:


> Travellers



Fair comment.


----------



## Merowig

Israeli-made oral COVID vaccine found to generate antibodies in pigs
					

Jerusalem-based scientist expects approval for humans within 6 months, says advance could simplify vaccination drives and even allow home vaccination using XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX sent by mail




					www.timesofisrael.com
				




Nice one - hope it works out fine in later trials as well
Would be a game changer in regards to storage. I doubt though it will be ever mailed by post as there is no documentation that it was administered.


----------



## Merowig

Several states and cities in Germany stopped vaccinating with Astrazeneca for everyone below 60 years of age. Including here in the list of institutions who stopped  is the Charite in Berlin - one of Europe's best hospitals.
Germany has right now a total of 31 cases of sinus venous thrombosis - in 19 cases with thrombocytopenia - 9 deaths so far.
All cases were in the age group 20 - 63. Majority are women but also two men.


----------



## EasilyAmused

I was only half listening to the Irish Times European Correspondent Naomi O’Leary but I think the action being taken is just to add it to the list of side effects. 
So it’ll have a standard entry such as:
1 in 1,000,000 users may suffer thrombocytopenia
1 in 10,000,000 users may die from thrombocytopenia

And the carry on as normal.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

J&J to deliver Covid-19 vaccine to Europe from 19 April
					

Johnson & Johnson has said it would start delivering its single-shot Covid-19 vaccine to Europe on 19 April, giving the continent a boost as it struggles to speed up its vaccination drive.




					www.rte.ie
				




I know the 19th of April seems a long time away but it's only 3 weeks.


----------



## odyssey06

Merowig said:


> Several states and cities in Germany stopped vaccinating with Astrazeneca for everyone below 60 years of age. Including here in the list of institutions who stopped  is the Charite in Berlin - one of Europe's best hospitals.
> Germany has right now a total of 31 cases of sinus venous thrombosis - in 19 cases with thrombocytopenia - 9 deaths so far.
> All cases were in the age group 20 - 63. Majority are women but also two men.


I wonder if it should only be given to men. Seems to be a pattern of higher risk with women under X.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

odyssey06 said:


> I wonder if it should only be given to men. Seems to be a pattern of higher risk with women under X.


Are you trying to start a rumble? Even if there was good medical evidence to support this there'll be a few who will see it differently.


----------



## odyssey06

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Are you trying to start a rumble? Even if there was good medical evidence to support this there'll be a few who will see it differently.


I think if that's where the data leads, then it should be considered as a rollout option... but hopefully the analysis can get to the bottom of it and identify a pattern (people on medication X or previously had disease Y).


----------



## Merowig

The regional state health ministers in Germany and of the central government will meet this evening.
The Standing Committee on Vaccination at the Robert Koch Institute recommends as of now that AstraZeneca will be only administered to only the over 60 years old's (men and women). People below that age can still get it if the doctor is ok with it and if the person was informed thoroughly about the risks. Wonder how many doctors will be ok with it in the first place.


That's a chance for Ireland to ask Germany if they have any spare AstraZeneca vaccines.


----------



## michaelm

Personally, I wouldn't take Chinese or Russian vaccines.  I probably won't take the AZ one either, although ultimately the brain clot issues may well be narrowed down to a specific cohort that I'm not part of (maybe, baseless speculation here, women taking oral contraceptive).


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

BioNTech and Pfizer raise 2021 vaccine production target to 2.5bn doses
					

German company’s CEO says refrigerator version will be ready within months




					www.irishtimes.com
				




This is some jump in production by Pfizer and BioNTech it's practically double what was thought 3/4 months ago.


----------



## Merowig

Israel ordered 30 million additional doses just in case they need boosters.
Is the EU thinking about that as well? 









						Israel seeks to purchase 30 million additional COVID vaccine doses for $1 billion
					

***




					www.haaretz.com


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Vaccination programme to be changed to age-based system
					

The National Vaccination Programme is to be changed to an age-based system, once those aged 70 years and older, the vulnerable and people with underlying conditions are immunised.




					www.rte.ie
				




This is going to cause a very large row. Teachers, Gardai, Fire Departments and anyone who deems themselves as "essential "will not be happy..


----------



## Leper

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Vaccination programme to be changed to age-based system
> 
> 
> The National Vaccination Programme is to be changed to an age-based system, once those aged 70 years and older, the vulnerable and people with underlying conditions are immunised.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.rte.ie
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is going to cause a very large row. Teachers, Gardai, Fire Departments and anyone who deems themselves as "essential "will not be happy..


I've been watching the nightly news for the past few weeks especially regarding "essential" people. To be honest I have no problem with Teachers, Gardaí, Fire Departments being classed as essential. Then there are the Hairdressers, Beauticians, Creche Workers, Supermarket Employees, Bus Drivers, Priests, Nuns, Traffic Wardens, Council Workers, Airport Personnel, Taxi Drivers, Mechanics, Building Industry, Utility personnel, Army, Navy, Park Attendants, Retirees, Dog Walkers, Professional Footballers, Disc Jockeys, Electricians, Plumbers, Milkmen (or Milkpersons), Joe Duffy, Painters, Carpenters, Jockeys, Forum Founders, etc etc all capable of making a case as to why they should get the vaccination before everybody else.

Policing that alone becomes an administrating nightmare and will help to reduce numbers receiving the vaccines. At least, the government is taking what is good about roll-out of the vaccine in the UK and trying to vaccinate as many as possible as fast as possible.

Let's hope we won't have any more interference from Hospital Managements or anybody else who themselves believe they should have some control over who should be vaccinated next.


----------



## SlugBreath

Starpharma teams up with LloydsPharmacy to market Viraleze in UK
					

Starpharma has agreed with LloydsPharmacy, a part of the McKesson group, for the sale and distribution of its antiviral nasal spray Viraleze in the UK




					www.ns-healthcare.com
				




Does anyone know if this is available in Ireland or soon to be available?


----------



## Purple

Leper said:


> Let's hope we won't have any more interference from Hospital Managements or anybody else who themselves believe they should have some control over who should be vaccinated next.


Do you seriously think that GP's aren't vaccinating their friends and families or older relations who are not yet at the front of the queue?


----------



## Leper

Purple said:


> Do you seriously think that GP's aren't vaccinating their friends and families or older relations who are not yet at the front of the queue?


No. This is Ireland and we're not new to shooting ourselves in the foot.


----------



## Purple

Leper said:


> No. This is Ireland and we're not new to shooting ourselves in the foot.


We're not new to the State sector being utterly unable to properly regulate the private sector when it interacts with it.


----------



## SlugBreath

We are due to get large deliveries of vaccines later this month and in to next month.

I certainly hope that the people in charge are ready to "go" with these vaccines and we don't have the usual cock up with deliveries, followed by the usual distractions and diversions that they make to cover their slow delivery.

Are the pharmacies on board yet regarding the rollout?


----------



## EmmDee

SlugBreath said:


> Are the pharmacies on board yet regarding the rollout?



I thought the Pharmacies only get involved once the J&J vaccine arrives - the handling of the current vaccines are probably beyond most pharmacies


----------



## Sunny

EmmDee said:


> I thought the Pharmacies only get involved once the J&J vaccine arrives - the handling of the current vaccines are probably beyond most pharmacies



Why? Pharmacies have fridges just like GP's. The vaccines are not stored by GP's in -70 refrigeration units.


----------



## Purple

EmmDee said:


> I thought the Pharmacies only get involved once the J&J vaccine arrives - the handling of the current vaccines are probably beyond most pharmacies


There's no reason why Pharmacists and Paramedics and Nurses and Vets and anyone else who has done the one day phlebotomy course can't administer the vaccine. Even the ones that have to be stored at very low temperatures can be stored in a fridge for a day or so.


----------



## EmmDee

Sunny said:


> Why? Pharmacies have fridges just like GP's. The vaccines are not stored by GP's in -70 refrigeration units.



Maybe - I thought I had read that. Yes they do have regular refrigeration but I know the protocols around handling and administering the vaccines are pretty involved. I know a couple of people who have been through the training and it's a lot more involved than regular vaccines. Not just the refrigeration issue. And they are having issues managing that across the GP locations - add in the pharmacy numbers and it gets a lot more complicated.

But maybe they will - I look forward to the stories of how vaccines get handed "incorrectly" because of last minute time pressure


----------



## Purple

EmmDee said:


> I know a couple of people who have been through the training and it's a lot more involved than regular vaccines. Not just the refrigeration issue. And they are having issues managing that across the GP locations - add in the pharmacy numbers and it gets a lot more complicated.


Why is the HSE making it so difficult for people to become vaccinators?
They are being Garda vetted even though nobody under 18 is getting the vaccine and even if they were they would be accompanied by their parent/guardian.
You'd think they were trying to keep the plebs off the gravy train...


----------



## EmmDee

Purple said:


> There's no reason why Pharmacists and Paramedics and Nurses and Vets and anyone else who has done the one day phlebotomy course can't administer the vaccine. Even the ones that have to be stored at very low temperatures can be stored in a fridge for a day or so.



I get that - it's the increased logistical complexity I thought was the limiting factor. Especially when the current channels aren't max'd out. But maybe it will happen


----------



## Leper

Purple said:


> We're not new to the State sector being utterly unable to properly regulate the private sector when it interacts with it.


Newsflash Purple! It was a Private Hospital Manager who dished out the vaccine to those in a Private School. You can't blame the Public Sector for that. Oh! That Gravy Train has always existed too. We can't have qualified university educated doctors without proof of Junior Cert success vaccinating people. What would the public think?


----------



## Purple

Leper said:


> Newsflash Purple! It was a Private Hospital Manager who dished out the vaccine to those in a Private School. You can't blame the Public Sector for that.


So when the HSE  delivers a pallet of vaccines and their directive is "follow the rules but we won't be checking" and the only vehicle of oversight is Twitter those who are paid to look after the States resources are not to blame?


Leper said:


> Oh! That Gravy Train has always existed too. We can't have qualified university educated doctors without proof of Junior Cert success vaccinating people. What would the public think?


They'll think that they are all "heroes" and not think that they are susceptible to the same human weaknesses such as greed and selfishness as the rest of us and so won't question their motives. The only way a Medical Professional can possibly be less than perfect is it they are rich.


----------



## Leper

Purple said:


> So when the HSE  delivers a pallet of vaccines and their directive is "follow the rules but we won't be checking" and the only vehicle of oversight is Twitter those who are paid to look after the States resources are not to blame?
> 
> That'll think that they are all "heroes" and not think that they are susceptible to the same human weaknesses such as greed and selfishness as the rest of us and so won't question their motives. The only way a Medical Professional can possibly be less than perfect is it they are rich.


Ah Purple, our Front Line Staff is beyond criticism, isn't there a newspaper published to provide more financial support in their favour, don't they still get free pizzas and money vouchers for hair appointments. How could you think corruption is alive and well within?


----------



## Purple

Leper said:


> Ah Purple, our Front Line Staff is beyond criticism, isn't there a newspaper published to provide more financial support in their favour, don't they still get free pizzas and money vouchers for hair appointments. How could you think corruption is alive and well within?


I don't think Fintan O'Toole has given them his official blessing yet but Miriam Lord hasn't written half-funny smart ass article about them and I don't get to listen to LiveLine so I'm not sure what to think.


----------



## odyssey06

This probably explains why so many more vaccines rolled out under cohort 2 than projected:

_An online HSE system used for staff vaccination has been widely abused by non-healthcare employees – with many exploiting loopholes to skip the queue for a jab. The Irish Daily Mail has revealed that the HSE’s online portal for arranging frontline inoculations is not robust at checking vaccine candidates’ identification._








						Vaccine booking system 'abused' as non-healthcare workers jump jab queue - Extra.ie
					

An online HSE system used for staff vaccination has been widely abused by non-healthcare employees – with many exploiting loopholes to skip the queue for a jab.



					extra.ie


----------



## Purple

odyssey06 said:


> This probably explains why so many more vaccines rolled out under cohort 2 than projected:
> 
> _An online HSE system used for staff vaccination has been widely abused by non-healthcare employees – with many exploiting loopholes to skip the queue for a jab. The Irish Daily Mail has revealed that the HSE’s online portal for arranging frontline inoculations is not robust at checking vaccine candidates’ identification._
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vaccine booking system 'abused' as non-healthcare workers jump jab queue - Extra.ie
> 
> 
> An online HSE system used for staff vaccination has been widely abused by non-healthcare employees – with many exploiting loopholes to skip the queue for a jab.
> 
> 
> 
> extra.ie


People here don't want national identity cards so what do they expect?


----------



## odyssey06

Purple said:


> People here don't want national identity cards so what do they expect?


Not clear how this would have helped in this instance, a national identity card wouldn't necessarily have your current occupation on it, nor does there appear to be a list anywhere it could be cross checked against.
Moving to an age based system and looking for passport or driving licence which states age etc seems to be the way to go for now.


----------



## EasilyAmused

Purple said:


> People here don't want national identity cards so what do they expect?



We have a Public Services Card but uptake has been minimal. And the whingers whinge even louder when they need the PSC go get something for free


----------



## Purple

odyssey06 said:


> Not clear how this would have helped in this instance, a national identity card wouldn't necessarily have your current occupation on it, nor does there appear to be a list anywhere it could be cross checked against.


The HSE could use the unique number in their database. The same number could be used for a vaccine database.
If it was allowed we could of course use PPS numbers for the same thing but our interpretation of GDPR seems to prevent that sort of thing.

We don't know how many GP's there are in the country. The ICGP says it's around 2500 and that the service is at breaking point (they would say that though, wouldn't they) whereas around 5000 doctors say they are working as GP's in Ireland.

We don't know how many Nurses there are working here. There are 78,000 registered with the Nursing Board. The OECD says we have 55,000 of them but since so many of them only work part time the HSE says it has 37,500 full time equivalent nurses. Then there's Nurses in private Hospitals. Then there's nurses in private nursing homes. Then there's nurse in GP surgeries. Any of whom could be working part time or full time. 

The same issues apply to every other HSE employee or employee of a charity or private company funded or partially funded by the HSE.
We spend hundreds of millions trying to streamline their Payroll system but those efforts were resisted with a vigour not seen since Jadotville by the HSE Unions. Their victory resulting in hundreds of millions in waste and the resulting deaths of countless people due to the services which were not provided but could have been if that money wasn't wasted.
Basically the HSE is a basket case and the only people fully engaged in the problem are those seeking to keep it a shambles.


----------



## RedOnion

Purple said:


> If it was allowed we could of course use PPS numbers for the same thing but our interpretation of GDPR seems to prevent that sort of thing.


It's far worse than that, and very little to do with GDPR. The controls around use of PPS number are set out in legislation.


----------



## Purple

odyssey06 said:


> Moving to an age based system and looking for passport or driving licence which states age etc seems to be the way to go for now.


Except lots of people don't have passports or driving licences.


----------



## odyssey06

Purple said:


> Except lots of people don't have passports or driving licences.


Do you have a stat for that - people over 18 without passport, driving licence and some other form of approved ID such as student ID card or national age card or bus pass etc.


----------



## Purple

odyssey06 said:


> Do you have a stat for that - people over 18 without passport, driving licence and some other form of approved ID such as student ID card or national age card or bus pass etc.


I'm sure just about everyone has some sort of ID but anything other than a single database using a single ID type with a unique number will turn into a complete cluster... mess.


----------



## Sophrosyne

It is well beyond time for a health database.

Indeed, it should have been done 50 years ago.

I have been lobbying politicians about this for years. They all agree that it should be done, yet it never is.

This is something which could be given to the Citizens Assembly.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Sophrosyne said:


> It is well beyond time for a health database.
> 
> Indeed, it should have been done 50 years ago.
> 
> I have been lobbying politicians about this for years. They all agree that it should be done, yet it never is.
> 
> This is something which could be given to the Citizens Assembly.


I think one of the consequences of this crisis should be exactly that, this will not be a one-off event and we and the Western World simply can't cope.


----------



## SlugBreath

When you are called to get your vaccine, are you told the name of the vaccine that you will be getting?   What if you refuse to take an AstraZeneca jab, are you put back on the list for future vaccination?  Do you go to the back of the list, anyone know what happens?


----------



## Merowig

Paul O Mahoney said:


> I think one of the consequences of this crisis should be exactly that, this will not be a one-off event and we and the Western World simply can't cope.


Some in the Western World habe it already (Denmark, Estonia, Israel) or are in the process of Digitalisation (Germany). Ireland still hasn’t a compatible IT system between the hospitals and is not representative of the Western World.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Merowig said:


> Some in the Western World habe it already (Denmark, Estonia, Israel) or are in the process of Digitalisation (Germany). Ireland still hasn’t a compatible IT system between the hospitals and is not representative of the Western World.


Of those you quoted Israel seems to be the only one that has functioned well in the pandemic the others have not.

I am specifically talking about the pandemic here,  this will be the largest vaccination program human kind has witnessed and many virologists are saying it won't be the last.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Covid: 30 blood clot cases found in AstraZeneca recipients in the UK
					

The cases identified by the medicines regulator were out of more than 18 million doses given.



					www.bbc.com
				




With some more countries now halting the use of AZs vaccines for those under 60 and we follow it will have a serious impact on our rollout. 
I'm beginning to think that there is more than meets the eye here, not normally a sceptical type but this doesn't feel right.


----------



## Sophrosyne

Paul O Mahoney said:


> I'm beginning to think that there is more than meets the eye here, not normally a sceptical type but this doesn't feel right.


How do you mean?

I hope there is nothing wrong. I got my AstraZeneca jab yesterday.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Sophrosyne said:


> How do you mean?
> 
> I hope there is nothing wrong. I got my AstraZeneca jab yesterday.


I simply have a feeling, not evidence based, that maybe there are issues associated with AZ vaccines that may officially limit its use.
Obviously this would seriously curtail countries rollouts.

The vaccine is very important and if the EMA says use it then I think it should be used. Of course AZ hasn't helped this " feeling " with their initial results on effectiveness in December requiring further analysis and recently having to reduce its effectiveness by 2% to 74% in the US due to submitting confusing data.

All this simply heightens anxiety and Governments act but AZ needs to assure too, but they  seem to simply say, they witnessed nothing in the clinical trials.

If anyone remembers H1N1(Panderix) vaccine 12 years ago not giving information caused its demise only to be later found to be a good vaccine that was effective against Swine flu but did have some serious side effects in a tiny percentage of children and adults... countries simply banned it.

I wouldn't worry about getting the vaccine a friend of mine and his wife has had the AZ one her 2 months ago him last week nothing except sore arm and a bit of fatigue for 2 days both mid 50s.

Edit/ Pfizer/BioNTechs vaccine has also been associated with clots but the people who allegedly got sick from the AZ vaccine also showed reduced platelet counts which is " unusual ".


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

To add to the above...its perfectly reasonable to expect these types of side effects but its equally important to get them highlighted and have guidance issued. 
It might be found that certain people have immune systems that are susceptible to serious side-effects from the vaccine or the adjuvants that are included in the jab, but these "studies " always seem to take a long time and that risks perfectly good vaccines being unused or destroyed. 

Simply banning use for millions of people isn't the solution, regulators and research scientists need to work together, as they did in the development of the vaccines, to get answers quickly and issue proper guidance.


----------



## tomdublin

No forgiveness for failure in vaccine programme
					

For over 620,000 people who have already received a dose of the vaccine against coronavirus, there is a sense of relief. For over 240,000 who are now fully vaccinated, they must feel great comfort that they are strongly protected from Covid-19.




					www.rte.ie
				



Back office administrators in the HSE  allegedly designed an internal reservations system that has allowed potentially tens of thousands of back office administrators in that same organization to jump the vaccination queue by claiming to be frontline staff.  It seems that the government is trying to hush this up (by claiming it can't establish the roles of HSE employees who have been vaccinated), and only a minority of media outlets so far seem to grasp the seriousness of this story.


----------



## johnwilliams

paul o mahoney "showed reduced platelet counts"  is there any quick way of checking for  this ?


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

johnwilliams said:


> paul o mahoney "showed reduced platelet counts"  is there any quick way of checking for  this ?


I don't understand,  do you mean checking for low platelet count?

If so, my experience is through blood tests . I don't know if there are quicker ways to find out.


----------



## SlurrySlump

SlugBreath said:


> When you are called to get your vaccine, are you told the name of the vaccine that you will be getting?   What if you refuse to take an AstraZeneca jab, are you put back on the list for future vaccination?  Do you go to the back of the list, anyone know what happens?


Of all the vaccines administered last week, do we have a breakdown of the numbers from each manufacturer....AZ or Pfizer etc?

Is this information available anywhere to the public?


----------



## Sophrosyne

It is available on Ireland's COVID-19 Data Hub.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

SlurrySlump said:


> Of all the vaccines administered last week, do we have a breakdown of the numbers from each manufacturer....AZ or Pfizer etc?
> 
> Is this information available anywhere to the public?


If you look at the HSE vaccine dashboard you'll get an overall figure for each vaccine. The ECDC website has figures too but they are delayed and the lastest report is upto 28th of March.

Roughly 75% Pfizer 22% Astrazeneca bal Moderna


----------



## Merowig

Paul O Mahoney said:


> To add to the above...its perfectly reasonable to expect these types of side effects but its equally important to get them highlighted and have guidance issued.
> It might be found that certain people have immune systems that are susceptible to serious side-effects from the vaccine or the adjuvants that are included in the jab, but these "studies " always seem to take a long time and that risks perfectly good vaccines being unused or destroyed.
> 
> Simply banning use for millions of people isn't the solution, regulators and research scientists need to work together, as they did in the development of the vaccines, to get answers quickly and issue proper guidance.


One director/Professor of a German hospital stated that the risk from the vaccine is for below 60 years old higher than the risk to day from Covid for that group.
The guidance several EU countries have is to not use it at all or to restrict it to the older (55+, 60+, 65+ depending on the country). The US might not use AstraZeneca either.
I assume due to the fluent situation trust levels will be very low of the populations into that vaccine.


----------



## Sophrosyne

Merowig said:


> One director/Professor of a German hospital stated that the risk from the vaccine is for below 60 years old higher than the risk to day from Covid for that group.
> The guidance several EU countries have is to not use it at all or to restrict it to the older (55+, 60+, 65+ depending on the country). The US might not use AstraZeneca either.


Which countries and on what have they based their guidance?


----------



## SlurrySlump

Merowig said:


> One director/Professor of a German hospital stated that the risk from the vaccine is for below 60 years old higher than the risk to day from Covid for that group.


Can you rewrite this so it can be understood? Thanks


----------



## Grizzly

I am 69 years of age. Am I contacted by my doctor to get vaccine or the HSE or do I contact my doctor?  Thanks


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Grizzly said:


> I am 69 years of age. Am I contacted by my doctor to get vaccine or the HSE or do I contact my doctor?  Thanks


Good question, so far they contacted you don't know what will happen when they move to age groups. I'd drop a line to your GP and make sure he/she knows you want the vaccine.  It might not get you vaccinated any quicker but at least you'll be on a list.


----------



## Merowig

Sophrosyne said:


> Which countries and on what have they based their guidance?


Norway, Denmark, Netherlands, France, Germany, Iceland, Sweden and Finland. Based on too many cases.


----------



## Merowig

SlurrySlump said:


> Can you rewrite this so it can be understood? Thanks


Sorry according to him the risk is higher from AstraZeneca for that age group than the risk to die from Covid.


----------



## Grizzly

I understand that you get the second AZ vaccine jab up to 12 weeks after your first jab. 

 Leo Varadkar said 

_"Leo Varadkar has confirmed the Government is developing a “digital green certificate vaccine pass” for people to prove they have been fully inoculated.

He said the Government would introduce “additional measures for the fully vaccinated, more freedoms for those who have been vaccinated”.

He added: “We are developing a digital green certificate vaccine pass, so you’ll be able to prove that you’re fully vaccinated.”_

So with the AZ vaccine you won't get the digital green certificate for 4 months?  Surely not?


----------



## joe sod

Grizzly said:


> He added: “We are developing a digital green certificate vaccine pass, so you’ll be able to prove that you’re fully vaccinated.”


So the 200 people double booked into the Beacon hospital and Aviva last week will get 2 vaccine passports and the 20 teachers in the private school in wicklow will get none but sure the TUI is getting all the teachers priority so they will get vaccinated again anyways.


----------



## Purple

Are the teachers right to go on strike to get their vaccine sooner?


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Merowig said:


> Sorry according to him the risk is higher from AstraZeneca for that age group than the risk to die from Covid.


That's a curious claim, Germany has about 2853 deaths in total in the sub 60 age groups up to March 31st 2021 .

Astrazenecas vaccine would not be anywhere close to this if indeed it is proven that it does cause the clots and by extension deaths. 

Another thing I find odd is that Germany hasn't begun vaccination of the sub 60 groups in any great numbers with the exception of "essential " workers so it's a little tardy to simply extrapolate evenly over the general population without any detailed knowledge of what caused the clots.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Purple said:


> Are the teachers right to go on strike to get their vaccine sooner?


If they do they'll find the public less appreciative than they are now. It doesn't effect us as ours are in 3rd Level, but we have been told repeatedly that schools are safe and proper protocols were drawn up by the Unions and the Government.


----------



## Purple

Paul O Mahoney said:


> If they do they'll find the public less appreciative than they are now. It doesn't effect us as ours are in 3rd Level, but we have been told repeatedly that schools are safe and proper protocols were drawn up by the Unions and the Government.


Yes, the data supports the argument that teaching is a low risk job. I think the real issue is that the Government changed things without asking for permission from the Unions first and that, for the Unions, creates a dangerous precedent. Next thing the Government will think they are in charge.

That said I have some sympathy for the teachers but certainly now enough to support a strike or even negate how whingey, entitled and bombastic they sound.


----------



## Ceist Beag

Purple said:


> Are the teachers right to go on strike to get their vaccine sooner?


In a word no. Secondary school teachers were not due to be vacccinated before the schools closed for the summer anyway (in the old priority list) so as long as they can be reassured they will all be offered the vaccine before returning after the summer I don't see what argument they can have here, other than, as you say Purple, they don't like the fact they weren't asked their opinion! Maybe they feel angry that they won't be able to get abroad in the summer now!


----------



## Bronco Lane

It looks as if I will get my vaccine at the Aviva Stadium in Dublin.  Is there car parking at the Aviva or do I park on a nearby road and walk?


----------



## Purple

Bronco Lane said:


> It looks as if I will get my vaccine at the Aviva Stadium in Dublin.  Is there car parking at the Aviva or do I park on a nearby road and walk?


If it's like the US it will be drive through but yes, there's a car park at the Aviva.


----------



## Purple

Ceist Beag said:


> Maybe they feel angry that they won't be able to get abroad in the summer now!


They'll all be so utterly exhausted by teaching remotely that they'll be too tired to go anywhere anyway.

Joking aside some of them have done as excellent job supporting students over the last few months. My son who is doing his leaving cert is getting mails and messages from some of his teachers even though it's mid term. A minority have been useless. My daughters biology teacher hasn't done a class for 3 weeks, five now if we include mid term. No response from the school as to what's happening.


----------



## EasilyAmused

The mass vaxx centre in Páirc Ui Chaoimh is seens to be a well run affair. Constant stream of cars moving in an out, no traffic congestion. 
The thought crossed my head yo just join the convoy, what’s the worst that could happen? Be like the old days an trying to get into the new nightclub in town, to be refused with “regulars only”.

Probably AZ anyway so what bother?


----------



## EmmDee

EmmDee said:


> I have work colleagues in Hong Kong - they are very skeptical of the Chinese vaccine. They claim the pictures of the HK leaders getting vaccinated actually were getting the Pfizer jab.
> 
> The problem with regimes that are less than transparent is that there is little trust when it comes to things like vaccines



Just on this.... It seems that a number of countries which have relied on the Chinese vaccine aren't seeing the drop in hospital cases even where vaccine roll out has been higher (e.g. Chile, Bahrain, Qatar). Seems to be less effective with the new variants


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Just back from my walk and saw a headline on the BBC that read something like " EMA head of vaccines believes there is a link from AZs vaccine to clots" went to find a link on BBC website but there isn't one yet.

If this true God knows what will happen....

Edit; the BBC expanded to say the view was an personal opinion that was given in an Italian newspaper interview


----------



## EasilyAmused

Oh there’s a link alright, that’s old news. All AZ have to do is detail on the list of side effects. I’d be more worried about it’s reduced efficacy against P1.


----------



## RedOnion

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Just back from my walk and saw a headline on the BBC that read something like " EMA head of vaccines believes there is a link from AZs vaccine to clots" went to find a link on BBC website but there isn't one yet.
> 
> If this true God knows what will happen....
> 
> Edit; the BBC expanded to say the view was an personal opinion that was given in an Italian newspaper interview


There's a version of it on RTE website. It's from an interview with an Italian newspaper.








						16 reports of blood clots following AZ vaccine - HPRA
					

The Health Products Regulatory Authority has said it has received 16 reports of blood clots occurring following vaccination with the AstraZeneca Covid-19 vaccine.




					www.rte.ie


----------



## Sunny

My mother is mid 70's and not a word of a vaccine. Same with many of her friends including one with serious medical issues that require never being without an oxygen tank. They ring GP's and get told off by receptionists for wasting their time. They hear ads on radio saying they have started over 65's and that nearly 50,000 with medical issues have got a vaccine. The health minister promised all over 70's would have one dose by middle of April. That won't happen. 

Out if curiosity, how are other people finding this if you are over 70 or have elderly relatives? From talking to friends, the over 70's are nowhere near all having one dose.


----------



## Ceist Beag

Based on my own experience they are a little bit behind what has been stated publicly, but not too far off. My elderly relatives are mainly in the 75-80 range and some have already got their first dose and the others have a date for theirs (latest date is 15th April). So it might be closer to over 75s will have their dose by mid April, not over 70s. Would be interested to hear how others are finding it.


----------



## EmmDee

All 4 parents in our family have had their first and two have had their second.

An aunt who is later 70's from another part of Dublin had their first last week


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

My father 80plus has had his first dose mother 77, I think, was meant to get it last week too but has come down with another Kidney infection and she decided to wait as she's miserable.


----------



## EasilyAmused

Sunny said:


> Out if curiosity, how are other people finding this if you are over 70 or have elderly relatives? From talking to friends, the over 70's are nowhere near all having one dose.



My in-laws are in their 70ies and have been vaxxed.


----------



## EasilyAmused

PatrickSmithUS said:


> I keep saying it but I seriously think the HSE will be liable for massive compensation claims down the line. ALong with the delayed cancer screening there will be incidents of newborn babies suffering from issues due to contracting COVID from staff members, X Rays not uncovering other illnesses and a whole host of other things.



Doubt it. There’s a pandemic going on. We’re all in this together.

This isn’t like the Vikki Phelan compo job.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

PatrickSmithUS said:


> I keep saying it but I seriously think the HSE will be liable for massive compensation claims down the line. ALong with the delayed cancer screening there will be incidents of newborn babies suffering from issues due to contracting COVID from staff members, X Rays not uncovering other illnesses and a whole host of other things.


Well I doubt very much that'll happen there is no legal liability for lack of screening or not diagnosing illness.


----------



## EasilyAmused

At the current rate, Ireland’s Covid-19 rollout is 18 days behind schedule.


----------



## time to plan

Sunny said:


> My mother is mid 70's and not a word of a vaccine. Same with many of her friends including one with serious medical issues that require never being without an oxygen tank. They ring GP's and get told off by receptionists for wasting their time. They hear ads on radio saying they have started over 65's and that nearly 50,000 with medical issues have got a vaccine. The health minister promised all over 70's would have one dose by middle of April. That won't happen.
> 
> Out if curiosity, how are other people finding this if you are over 70 or have elderly relatives? From talking to friends, the over 70's are nowhere near all having one dose.


In-laws are in their 70s and are both vaccinated in last two weeks.


----------



## Bronco Lane

Just listening to Stephen Donnelly on the News at One.......is he just saying stuff....or the first thing that comes in to his head......everything is "next week" or "next month"......I really cannot stand the man.


----------



## Purple

Bronco Lane said:


> Just listening to Stephen Donnelly on the News at One.......is he just saying stuff....or the first thing that comes in to his head......everything is "next week" or "next month"......I really cannot stand the man.


Did you ever think you'd miss Simon Harris?


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Chinese official says local vaccines 'don't have high protection rates'
					

However he later appeared to backtrack, saying his comments were a "complete misunderstanding".



					www.bbc.com
				




Personally I'm not surprised but this might soften the cries for buying unapproved vaccines. Hungary bought and 5m of these at $36 a dose ( if my memory is correct).
Hungary also is 2nd highest 11.2% in terms of vaccines rollout in the EU what now for them?


----------



## EasilyAmused

We could be in the same boat with AZ. Clots, reduced effectiveness against variants, supply issue. What next?!


----------



## odyssey06

EasilyAmused said:


> We could be in the same boat with AZ. Clots, reduced effectiveness against variants, supply issue. What next?!


The clotting issue may affect the J&J vaccine also as it has similar profile...
So it'll be all about the mRNA vaccines (Pfizer, Moderna).


----------



## odyssey06

*NIAC to recommend restriction of AstraZeneca vaccine to over-60s *​








						NIAC recommends restriction of AZ jab to over-60s
					

The National Immunisation Advisory Committee (NIAC) has recommended that only people over 60 years of age should get the AstraZeneca Covid-19 vaccine.




					www.rte.ie


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

PatrickSmithUS said:


> Are you basing this on something? History would suggest that we have no issue with seeking compensation when things that could have been avoided resulted in some suffering.


Who's liable for Covid-19?


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

odyssey06 said:


> The clotting issue may affect the J&J vaccine also as it has similar profile...
> So it'll be all about the mRNA vaccines (Pfizer, Moderna).


They too can cause clots but not affect platelets. Once companies apply for full licences they'll have to answer what is causing these issues.


----------



## odyssey06

Paul O Mahoney said:


> They too can cause clots


Could be wrong - I thought they caused 'normal' clots more easily dealt with, whereas the deeper concern with AZ was these brain clots?


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

odyssey06 said:


> Could be wrong - I thought they caused 'normal' clots more easily dealt with, whereas the deeper concern with AZ was these brain clots?


Sorry I was editing my post, " normal " clots aren't pleasant either and can travel to heart and lungs. It's really up to the companies to get the answer's, nearly all side effects from vaccines come from the adjuvants used to get the vaccine into your system.


----------



## EasilyAmused

PatrickSmithUS said:


> Are you basing this on something? History would suggest that we have no issue with seeking compensation when things that could have been avoided resulted in some suffering.



Yes, I’m basing this on there being a pandemic going on. These aren’t normal times with normal negligence. These are exceptional times. *Only* 5,000 people have lost there lives here. Had the government not acted the way they did 12 months ago, the body count would have been ten times that. 
Taking the cervical screening scandal, that was caused by a government trying to save a few quid by outsourcing to a poxy company. Only 100s of women have been impacted. 
The entire nation has been impacted by the pandemic.


----------



## Merowig

odyssey06 said:


> *NIAC to recommend restriction of AstraZeneca vaccine to over-60s *​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NIAC recommends restriction of AZ jab to over-60s
> 
> 
> The National Immunisation Advisory Committee (NIAC) has recommended that only people over 60 years of age should get the AstraZeneca Covid-19 vaccine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.rte.ie


Better late than never but looks like others in Europe were acting quicker again.
Also wonder if anyone already did an analyze here of the impact on the roll out.


----------



## odyssey06

Merowig said:


> Better late than never but looks like others in Europe were acting quicker again.
> Also wonder if anyone already did an analyze here of the impact on the roll out.



I understand fully why they made this call for under 50s. Their covid risk is low. The fatal clot risk is 1 in a million but a lot more ppl will get the vaccine than covid.

But for example 50 something family member is in health care and received first dose and is now in limbo for second dose to be considered fully vaccinated.

High risk cohort who already received first dose will get second dose as scheduled.


----------



## Merowig

odyssey06 said:


> I understand fully why they made this call for under 50s. Their covid risk is low. The fatal clot risk is 1 in a million but a lot more ppl will get the vaccine than covid.
> 
> But for example 50 something family member is in health care and received first dose and is now in limbo for second dose to be considered fully vaccinated.
> 
> High risk cohort who already received first dose will get second dose as scheduled.


I think it is a debatable/not quite clear yet in regards to the occurrence. Seems to vary as well per country.
In Germany they use now Pfizer for the second dose when they started to restrict AstraZeneca.


----------



## Merowig

CureVac Could Win Covid Shot Approval in May, Augsburger Says
					

CureVac NV could win European Union approval for its Covid-19 vaccine as early as May, sooner than expected, a German newspaper cited a company spokesman as saying.




					www.bloomberg.com
				




Looking forward to that one


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Merowig said:


> Better late than never but looks like others in Europe were acting quicker again.
> Also wonder if anyone already did an analyze here of the impact on the roll out.


Well we were to receive almost 900,000 AZ doses between April and June and from the data I've seen supply has settled down and weekly deliveries have increased.

With 240k(est) after receiving AZ and we assume those people will get a second dose and it being only used for over 60s , with many not accepting it I'd imagine, we will have a lot in stock.

More importantly we will be pushing out dates for younger people to get vaccinated. Other vaccines are on the way but I can't see those making up the difference in the rollout plan. Pfizer/BioNTech are increasing supply but again we don't know how those extras will impact the overall rollout. 

Bottom line is we need AZ all other scenarios point to a longer rollout.


----------



## Odea

I think the fear that most people have now is....what happens if they refuse to take the AZ vaccine.......will they be told to sit on the naughty boy step and wait until they are called.


----------



## EasilyAmused

An expert on the radio this morning said that if AZ was the only vaccine it wound be rolled out to the entire population. 
However, as there are other vaccines available, they’ve decided on these restrictions.

This makes sense. But if you read between the lines...


----------



## Sunny

Accepting my lack of medical expertise, it does seem strange that we have managed to develop and produce at least four highly effective vaccines in such a short period of time because a number of companies/sectors worked together and managed to collaborate. We now have a situation where we start off saying we take all our guidance from the EMA which led to the vaccine being suspended for older people to being allowed for all cohorts, to the vaccine being paused before starting again saying it was safe to saying the vaccine was safer for the older cohorts to the EMA saying the AZ vaccine should be taken but it is up to National Regulators to design their own programmes. On the back of the same science, we have the UK giving the same vaccine to over 30's. France to over 55's, Germany and Ireland to over 60's and places like Bulgaria and Hungary not having restrictions at all. Indeed, Ireland don't give AZ to the over 70's so we are basically saying that the vaccine should only be given to people between the ages of 60 to 70. 

As I said, not a scientist but why on earth would a 69 year old want that vaccine if they are saying a 70 year old should take an alternative. Likewise, telling a 59 year old that they will have to wait for an alternative vaccine while a 60 year old is injected with Astrazeneca doesn't make much logical sense to me. You had Ronan Glynn saying last night they could have picked a younger age but it was through an 'abundance of caution' that they chose 60. What does that mean? Why wasn't 65 chosen through an abundance of caution? Or the use of AZ paused completely? How much extra risk is France taking by giving it to 55-60 age cohort. How much extra risk is UK taking allowing 30-60 cohort take it? How did they decide the risk of clots versus the reward of successful covid vaccinations? If this decision delays rollout and easing of lockdown, what is the economic cost of 'picking' 60? Did that even factor into discussions? We have had thousands die from Covid but seem to have decided that the potential risk of losing less than 5 people due to the vaccine is unacceptable. Just seems odd. 

The alternative to all of the above is that like the famous American Defence Secretary says: 'we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. ... But there are also unknown unknowns—the ones we don't know we don't know'


----------



## odyssey06

Sunny said:


> Accepting my lack of medical expertise, it does seem strange that we have managed to develop and produce at least four highly effective vaccines in such a short period of time because a number of companies/sectors worked together and managed to collaborate. We now have a situation where we start off saying we take all our guidance from the EMA which led to the vaccine being suspended for older people to being allowed for all cohorts, to the vaccine being paused before starting again saying it was safe to saying the vaccine was safer for the older cohorts to the EMA saying the AZ vaccine should be taken but it is up to National Regulators to design their own programmes. On the back of the same science, we have the UK giving the same vaccine to over 30's. France to over 55's, Germany and Ireland to over 60's and places like Bulgaria and Hungary not having restrictions at all. Indeed, Ireland don't give AZ to the over 70's so we are basically saying that the vaccine should only be given to people between the ages of 60 to 70.
> 
> As I said, not a scientist but why on earth would a 69 year old want that vaccine if they are saying a 70 year old should take an alternative. Likewise, telling a 59 year old that they will have to wait for an alternative vaccine while a 60 year old is injected with Astrazeneca doesn't make much logical sense to me. You had Ronan Glynn saying last night they could have picked a younger age but it was through an 'abundance of caution' that they chose 60. What does that mean? Why wasn't 65 chosen through an abundance of caution? Or the use of AZ paused completely? How much extra risk is France taking by giving it to 55-60 age cohort. How much extra risk is UK taking allowing 30-60 cohort take it? How did they decide the risk of clots versus the reward of successful covid vaccinations? If this decision delays rollout and easing of lockdown, what is the economic cost of 'picking' 60? Did that even factor into discussions? We have had thousands die from Covid but seem to have decided that the potential risk of losing less than 5 people due to the vaccine is unacceptable. Just seems odd.
> 
> The alternative to all of the above is that like the famous American Defence Secretary says: 'we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. ... But there are also unknown unknowns—the ones we don't know we don't know'



We aren't giving AZ to over 70s due to lack of trials data.
Although there's no trials data for extending second AZ dose to 16 weeks so they are contradicting themselves there.

If you look at the numbers, for under 30s, the clot risk is too high versus the benefit in terms of reduced deaths for that demographic.
Bearing in mind many more under 30s would be vaccinated than would be infected with covid.

Over 60, the benefits far outweigh the risk.
For people in the 50s the benefits are still much larger, so that's where the abundance of caution kicks in.
For over 30s the benefits still significantly outweigh the clot risk.
It's a balancing act.
You could draw the line and say AZ for over 50s and vulnerable.

If we only had AZ we would be using it on everyone over 30 for sure.
Or for certain groups, MVCs where you voluntarily sign up for AZ to skip the queue.


----------



## Sunny

odyssey06 said:


> We aren't giving AZ to over 70s due to lack of trials data.
> Although there's no trials data for extending second AZ dose to 16 weeks so they are contradicting themselves there.
> 
> If you look at the numbers, for under 30s, the clot risk is too high versus the benefit in terms of reduced deaths for that demographic.
> Bearing in mind many more under 30s would be vaccinated than would be infected with covid.
> 
> Over 60, the benefits far outweigh the risk.
> For people in the 50s the benefits are still much larger, so that's where the abundance of caution kicks in.
> For over 30s the benefits still significantly outweigh the clot risk.
> It's a balancing act.
> You could draw the line and say AZ for over 50s and vulnerable.
> 
> If we only had AZ we would be using it on everyone over 30 for sure.
> Or for certain groups, MVCs where you voluntarily sign up for AZ to skip the queue.



Lack of trial data? The vaccine has been given out to millions of over 70's since December in the UK alone which is longer than the trial periods done to get approval so not only do we have some trial data, we have significant real world data.

We are talking about a one in a one million chance of dying from a blood clot so the risk of vaccinating the whole population with the AZ vaccine is that we could potentially see less than 5 deaths. The risk of under 30's and indeed the under 60's getting covid isn't just to their own health. It is that they spread it to people who are more susceptible to getting very ill from covid. We are still nowhere near fully vaccinating the over 70's or medically exposed and today we cancelled 15,000 appointments alone. We are told we still have high community transmission rates so the chances seeing another wave and significant covid related deaths seem to be me a lot greater than the risk of getting blood clots from the AZ vaccine.


----------



## odyssey06

Sunny said:


> Lack of trial data? The vaccine has been given out to millions of over 70's since December in the UK alone which is longer than the trial periods done to get approval so not only do we have some trial data, we have significant real world data.
> 
> We are talking about a one in a one million chance of dying from a blood clot so the risk of vaccinating the whole population with the AZ vaccine is that we could potentially see less than 5 deaths. The risk of under 30's and indeed the under 60's getting covid isn't just to their own health. It is that they spread it to people who are more susceptible to getting very ill from covid. We are still nowhere near fully vaccinating the over 70's or medically exposed and today we cancelled 15,000 appointments alone. We are told we still have high community transmission rates so the chances seeing another wave and significant covid related deaths seem to be me a lot greater than the risk of getting blood clots from the AZ vaccine.


Lack of trial data is what was cited. it's also the reason they don't space out Pfizer vaccines even though other countries are doing it.
But now they are spacing out AZ vaccine second dose potentially beyond 12 weeks without trial data.
So make up your own mind there.

As things stand though the under 30s were going to be vaccinated last, so everyone older than them and higher risk should have been vaccinated.
So you're only looking at the risk of death from covid versus risk of fatal clot and they are too close for comfort.
And then factor in we have other vaccines coming which don't have this risk.
As I said, for people under 60 who want to skip ahead of the queue for other vaccines and take the tiny tiny risk with AZ I think that should be an option.

I don't agree with cancelling the appointments that were already setup for higher risk groups.
The benefits of AZ far outweigh the risks for them and we shouldn't just stop the rollout, it should be a switchover not a brake.


----------



## Sunny

I agree that applying a break is ridiculous. No appointments should have been cancelled and people given a choice. The issue now is that vaccination targets won't be met. 180,000 due this week will not be even close. How many lives are going to be lost to covid or people get long covid because of vaccine delays. I understand caution but as I said, even if we just used the AZ vaccine to vaccinate the entire population, we would still probably be looking at less than 5 deaths from blood clots. As it stands and use of other vaccines, probably one death if even that. 
The numbers don't stack up when you are looking at the risk/reward of the vaccine. I understand saying we have other vaccines available so no need to take risks but we seem to have decided to potentially delay the vaccination of the entire population to protect young people from a 1 in a 1 million chance of adverse side affect. Maybe there won't be a delay but the 15,000 today and thousands for the rest of the week seem to have just been told that we prefer the risk of you getting covid. I am struggling to see the logic here.


----------



## Merowig

Odea said:


> I think the fear that most people have now is....what happens if they refuse to take the AZ vaccine.......will they be told to sit on the naughty boy step and wait until they are called.


They shouldn't be afraid of that. No one should be forced to be vaccinated or be vaccinated with a certain vaccine. Also people shouldn't panic about Covid either.
People should be given the option to take up AstraZeneca if they are informed about the risk and the Doctor also agrees to that.


----------



## odyssey06

J&J vaccine use paused in US. Similar reports to AZ issues...

_Six recipients in the United States developed a rare disorder involving blood clots within about two weeks of vaccination, officials briefed on the decision said. All six recipients were women between the ages of 18 and 48. One woman died and a second woman in Nebraska has been hospitalized in critical condition, the officials said. Nearly seven million people in the United States have received Johnson & Johnson shots so far_









						Johnson & Johnson Vaccinations Paused After Rare Clotting Cases Emerge (Published 2021)
					

Federal health officials called for a halt in the use of the company’s coronavirus vaccine while they study serious illnesses that developed in six American women.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Sunny said:


> I agree that applying a break is ridiculous. No appointments should have been cancelled and people given a choice. The issue now is that vaccination targets won't be met. 180,000 due this week will not be even close. How many lives are going to be lost to covid or people get long covid because of vaccine delays. I understand caution but as I said, even if we just used the AZ vaccine to vaccinate the entire population, we would still probably be looking at less than 5 deaths from blood clots. As it stands and use of other vaccines, probably one death if even that.
> The numbers don't stack up when you are looking at the risk/reward of the vaccine. I understand saying we have other vaccines available so no need to take risks but we seem to have decided to potentially delay the vaccination of the entire population to protect young people from a 1 in a 1 million chance of adverse side affect. Maybe there won't be a delay but the 15,000 today and thousands for the rest of the week seem to have just been told that we prefer the risk of you getting covid. I am struggling to see the logic here.


If it was a loved one of yours that died, you would be understandably upset and in time very angry. Statistics don't take into account human suffering and while vaccinating people is of the utmost importance every precaution must be made to ensure its safely done.

What needs to be done is for manufacturers to find out what is causing this issue. 

As I said earlier we need this vaccine but we also need it to be safe.


----------



## EasilyAmused

odyssey06 said:


> The fatal clot risk is 1 in a million but a lot more ppl will get the vaccine than covid.


1 in 160,000.


----------



## RedOnion

EasilyAmused said:


> 1 in 160,000.


You saw the word fatal in there?


----------



## EasilyAmused

Yes.


----------



## Sunny

Paul O Mahoney said:


> If it was a loved one of yours that died, you would be understandably upset and in time very angry. Statistics don't take into account human suffering and while vaccinating people is of the utmost importance every precaution must be made to ensure its safely done.
> 
> What needs to be done is for manufacturers to find out what is causing this issue.
> 
> As I said earlier we need this vaccine but we also need it to be safe.



Nobody wants to see any deaths so any suggestion that I am saying it is 'ok for anyone to die' is completely wrong. Using your distorted logic, are you saying that it acceptable that one person who has had their AZ vaccine cancelled since last weekend gets covid and dies because they weren't vaccinated in the time it takes for their vaccine to be rescheduled? Using their own figures, over 90% of people who have died with Covid have had underlying conditions. The risk of one those 15,000 people who had their appointment cancelled today of getting covid and dying from it is higher than they are from getting a fatal blood clot from the AZ vaccine.

If we want it to be safe, we stop giving vaccines until we get to the bottom of it. Otherwise you are just talking about levels of safety just like you are talking about with all medical products. 

At the end of the day, the numbers that this decision are based on shows the risk to the Irish population are less than one death considering the amount of people due to get the AZ vaccine. The alternative is that they actually think the risk is actually much larger or they simply don't know. In which case, they should pause the vaccines. Otherwise, maybe you should tell them that statistics don't take into account human suffering....


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Sunny said:


> Using your distorted logic, are you saying that it acceptable that one person who has had their AZ vaccine cancelled since last weekend gets covid and dies because they weren't vaccinated in the time it takes for their vaccine to be rescheduled?


I really don't know how you could deduce that from what I typed.


----------



## Sunny

Paul O Mahoney said:


> I really don't know how you could deduce that from what I typed.



Well how did you deduce that I was happy to see people die from the vaccine since you decide to tell me how I wouldn't be happy to see a loved one die? I don't want any loved one belonging to me or anyone else to die. From the vaccine or from covid. But what is the biggest risk to my loved ones with medical conditions or elderly? Going by the figures provided by the experts, it is Covid. I would have preferred by brother in law with CF to have his vaccine yesterday as planned but it was pulled. Doesn't mean I want him to die. As long as everyone is aware of the risks, I would prefer to take my chances with the vaccine as would most people I would suggest. Unless as I say, we simply don't know what the true impact is. In which case, we are still taking risks with peoples lives.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Sunny said:


> Well how did you deduce that I was happy to see people die from the vaccine since you decide to tell me how I wouldn't be happy to see a loved one die? I don't want any loved one belonging to me or anyone else to die. From the vaccine or from covid. But what is the biggest risk to my loved ones with medical conditions or elderly? Going by the figures provided by the experts, it is Covid. I would have preferred by brother in law with CF to have his vaccine yesterday as planned but it was pulled. Doesn't mean I want him to die. As long as everyone is aware of the risks, I would prefer to take my chances with the vaccine as would most people I would suggest. Unless as I say, we simply don't know what the true impact is. In which case, we are still taking risks with peoples lives.


I didn't deduce nor say anything of the kind, but you go ahead and think I did if you want if it makes you feel happier.


----------



## Sunny

Paul O Mahoney said:


> If it was a loved one of yours that died, you would be understandably upset and in time very angry.



So what was the point of this then?


----------



## Leo

PatrickSmithUS said:


> No one but there's still an obligation on the HSE to treat people.


But only to a point that their budget and resources permit.


----------



## Purple

PatrickSmithUS said:


> No one but there's still an obligation on the HSE to treat people.


That's a bit open ended.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Sunny said:


> So what was the point of this then?


I'll let you decipher it.


----------



## Sunny

odyssey06 said:


> J&J vaccine use paused in US. Similar reports to AZ issues...
> 
> _Six recipients in the United States developed a rare disorder involving blood clots within about two weeks of vaccination, officials briefed on the decision said. All six recipients were women between the ages of 18 and 48. One woman died and a second woman in Nebraska has been hospitalized in critical condition, the officials said. Nearly seven million people in the United States have received Johnson & Johnson shots so far_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Johnson & Johnson Vaccinations Paused After Rare Clotting Cases Emerge (Published 2021)
> 
> 
> Federal health officials called for a halt in the use of the company’s coronavirus vaccine while they study serious illnesses that developed in six American women.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com



At least the pause makes sense until they can understand it. If we are not willing to accept the risks that been made available in the AZ vaccine (1 in 1 million chance of fatality) then we might as well not accept any risk and simply pause the use of the vaccine. We now have a situation where the 60-70 age group will be given a vaccine that is not appropriate for the over 70's or the under 60's. They will rightly ask, what makes those 10 years so different. Is it just that the risks haven't been identified yet? We have young people being told to take a second dose with the same question. They have been flip flopping over this vaccine for weeks now.


----------



## Sunny

Paul O Mahoney said:


> I'll let you decipher it.



Right then


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

PatrickSmithUS said:


> No one but there's still an obligation on the HSE to treat people.


No there's not. If someone seeks treatment they may or may not treat them, there is no obligation.


----------



## odyssey06

NIAC is considering whether to extend the interval between the first and second Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine doses to increase the number of people who have some level of protection against Covid-19... Currently, there is a four-week gap between the first and second dose of the Pfizer vaccine in Ireland. But internationally, the gap is being extended between four and 12 weeks for Pfizer vaccines. This gives authorities time to roll out the vaccine to more people to give the some level of protection against Covid-19.









						NIAC considers increasing gap between first and second Pfizer vaccine doses
					

The consideration is being made amid a serious disruption to Ireland’s Covid-19 vaccine rollout.




					www.thejournal.ie


----------



## Purple

Merowig said:


> No one should be forced to be vaccinated or be vaccinated with a certain vaccine.


No, but if they refuse to be vaccinated then they should be required to continue to wear a mask, socially distance, stay out of pubs and restaurants and generally remain in lockdown.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Pfizer, Moderna COVID-19 vaccines highly effective after first shot in real-world use, U.S. study shows
					

COVID-19 vaccines developed by Pfizer Inc with BioNTech SE and Moderna Inc reduced risk of infection by 80% two weeks or more after the first of two shots, according to data from a real-world U.S. study released on Monday.




					www.reuters.com
				




This article which is recent will give a pretty good idea of the effects of having one dose.


----------



## Merowig

Purple said:


> No, but if they refuse to be vaccinated then they should be required to continue to wear a mask, socially distance, stay out of pubs and restaurants and generally remain in lockdown.


Difficult for private enterprises and the government to police that - and health data is still private data  
It's not like people not already meet without masks etc - even in some grocery shops it started to pick up with some staff and customers not using masks.
Also when herd immunity is reached that isn't an issue. It shouldn't be even one when the risk groups are all vaccinated.


----------



## Purple

Merowig said:


> Difficult for private enterprises and the government to police that - and health data is still private data
> It's not like people not already meet without masks etc - even in some grocery shops it started to pick up with some staff and customers not using masks.
> Also when herd immunity is reached that isn't an issue. It shouldn't be even one when the risk groups are all vaccinated.


Right, so open up once X cohort or X percentage of the population is vaccinated but there is a civic duty to get vaccinated. I know there are always those who can't for medical reasons and won't because they are stupid/paranoid/fell into an internet rabbit hole but those with the physical and intellectual capability to take it should do so.


----------



## EasilyAmused

Purple said:


> No, but if they refuse to be vaccinated then they should be required to continue to wear a mask, socially distance, stay out of pubs and restaurants and generally remain in lockdown.


AFAIK in the U.K. proof of vaccination is or will be a requirement to go down pub


----------



## EasilyAmused

The Covid Vaccine registration system is open for the 65-69 yo cohort from timorous.


----------



## Firefly

If people refuse the AZ vaccine how about the HSE open it up to anyone who wants it? First come, first served. I would take it - probably a higher risk of death/serious issue driving to/from the vaccine centre than from the AZ vaccine...


----------



## odyssey06

Advances in detecting and treating the rare clotting event:








						How UK doctor linked rare blood-clotting to AstraZeneca Covid jab
					

Prof Marie Scully identified correct diagnostic test at University College London hospital after seeing rare side-effect in patient




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## joe sod

Sunny said:


> You had Ronan Glynn saying last night they could have picked a younger age but it was through an 'abundance of caution' that they chose 60. What does that mean? Why wasn't 65 chosen through an abundance of caution? Or the use of AZ paused completely? How much extra risk is France taking by giving it to 55-60 age cohort.


I think the decisions and why they make says more about the people making the decisions than the decisions themselves. Ronan glynn and the niac people are risk adverse technocrats , they don't want any fingers pointing back at them if someone gets a clot and dies from it. If 50 more people die of covid because of delays in rolling out the vaccines they won't be blamed that will just be down to the pandemic. 
I think we have our over litigious legal system to blame for a lot of this and I actually don't blame the experts from being so afraid to take small risks. We need to allow people to weigh up themselves whether they want to take the vaccines once they are deemed very safe and sign disclaimers to remove all this litigation risk.


----------



## Merowig

Purple said:


> Right, so open up once X cohort or X percentage of the population is vaccinated but there is a civic duty to get vaccinated. I know there are always those who can't for medical reasons and won't because they are stupid/paranoid/fell into an internet rabbit hole but those with the physical and intellectual capability to take it should do so.


Also a "civic duty" is not to pollute the parks and streets etc but the reality is very different. "Civic duties" are nowadays very subjective. 
It was put last year as a "civic duty" not to go on holidays... I disagree with that one for example.


Looks like about half of the French don't want it, 40% of the Germans  - claiming that they are all stupid/paranoid/ fell into a rabbit hole is unhelpful, just insulting and not truthful.
Surveyed acceptance rate for Ireland was 75% which is pretty good and should be enough for herd immunity.
That survey was though before the issues with AstraZeneca and John & Johnson - but also the press coverage of these issues was much smaller in Ireland than in other European countries - difficult to gauge here if it has an effect.


----------



## Purple

Merowig said:


> Also a "civic duty" is not to pollute the parks and streets etc but the reality is very different. "Civic duties" are nowadays very subjective.


No, that's a civic duty too.


Merowig said:


> It was put last year as a "civic duty" not to go on holidays... I disagree with that one for example.


I don't.


Merowig said:


> Looks like about half of the French don't want it, 40% of the Germans - claiming that they are all stupid/paranoid/ fell into a rabbit hole is unhelpful, just insulting and not truthful.


I stand by my opinion. 


Merowig said:


> Surveyed acceptance rate for Ireland was 75% which is pretty good and should be enough for herd immunity.


Maybe, probably.


Merowig said:


> That survey was though before the issues with AstraZeneca and John & Johnson - but also the press coverage of these issues was much smaller in Ireland than in other European countries - difficult to gauge here if it has an effect.


When emotion trumps the reality of statistical probability then people are being stupid.
You're more likely to die from a clot from flying but we'll still fly.


----------



## Merowig

UPDATE 2-EU Commission to end AstraZeneca and J&J vaccine contracts at expiry - paper
					

The EU Commission has decided not to renew COVID-19 vaccine contracts next year with AstraZeneca and Johnson & Johnson (J&J), Italian daily La Stampa reported on Wednesday, citing a source from the Italian health ministry.  "The European Commission, in agreement with the leaders of many (EU)...




					finance.yahoo.com
				




Wonder if this will be confirmed or not


----------



## Leo

Merowig said:


> Surveyed acceptance rate for Ireland was 75% which is pretty good and should be enough for herd immunity.



Not if people start to travel to areas with lower vaccination rates.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Merowig said:


> UPDATE 2-EU Commission to end AstraZeneca and J&J vaccine contracts at expiry - paper
> 
> 
> The EU Commission has decided not to renew COVID-19 vaccine contracts next year with AstraZeneca and Johnson & Johnson (J&J), Italian daily La Stampa reported on Wednesday, citing a source from the Italian health ministry.  "The European Commission, in agreement with the leaders of many (EU)...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> finance.yahoo.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wonder if this will be confirmed or not


The EU are negotiating with Pfizer/BioNTech for 1.8bn doses for 2022/23. If that happens the EU won't need AZ or JJ.


----------



## EasilyAmused

joe sod said:


> I think the decisions and why they make says more about the people making the decisions than the decisions themselves. Ronan glynn and the niac people are risk adverse technocrats ,



I agree with you.  After all, people have very short memories. 

When you look to the U.K., they’ve had one of the highest Covid death tolls in the world. 
But because their vaccine rollout is going well at the moment, people have forgotten about the 125,000+ deaths.
There are local elections next month and BoJo is ahead of his nearest rival by 10%. 
Brexit is more popular in polls now than it every was.
The dead can’t vote, eh?!


----------



## EasilyAmused

Paul O Mahoney said:


> The EU are negotiating with Pfizer/BioNTech for 1.8bn doses for 2022/23. If that happens the EU won't need AZ or JJ.


Fantastic news.


----------



## kitty81

odyssey06 said:


> NIAC is considering whether to extend the interval between the first and second Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine doses to increase the number of people who have some level of protection against Covid-19... Currently, there is a four-week gap between the first and second dose of the Pfizer vaccine in Ireland. But internationally, the gap is being extended between four and 12 weeks for Pfizer vaccines. This gives authorities time to roll out the vaccine to more people to give the some level of protection against Covid-19.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NIAC considers increasing gap between first and second Pfizer vaccine doses
> 
> 
> The consideration is being made amid a serious disruption to Ireland’s Covid-19 vaccine rollout.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thejournal.ie


My father got his first Pfizer shot 2 weeks ago and was told at that time that his next shot would be 12 weeks away . It seems that Stephen Donnelly, today, is saying that this is how they will manage the shortcomings in the vaccine doses?

Seems like that idea has already been used so they'll have to rethink the plan


----------



## odyssey06

IRELAND IS SET to receive over 500,000 additional doses of the BioNtech/Pfizer vaccine over the next three months as part of a wider EU agreement. BioNTech/Pfizer is bringing forward delivery of 50 million doses to the second quarter, starting this month.









						Vaccine boost: Ireland to get over 500,000 additional Pfizer doses as part of wider EU agreement
					

The EU is turning more heavily to BioNTech/Pfizer to make up for the suspended Johnson & Johnson vaccine.




					www.thejournal.ie


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

odyssey06 said:


> IRELAND IS SET to receive over 500,000 additional doses of the BioNtech/Pfizer vaccine over the next three months as part of a wider EU agreement. BioNTech/Pfizer is bringing forward delivery of 50 million doses to the second quarter, starting this month.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vaccine boost: Ireland to get over 500,000 additional Pfizer doses as part of wider EU agreement
> 
> 
> The EU is turning more heavily to BioNTech/Pfizer to make up for the suspended Johnson & Johnson vaccine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thejournal.ie


This is good news and should alleviate a lot of pressure on the rollout. 
If I was a betting man I would say that Europe will probably stick with mRna vaccines and be able to secure supply. Curevac will add another boost


----------



## Sunny

It's good news but we are potentially down 600k J&J doses between now and June. That is the equivalent of 1.2m mRna vaccines so we are still down roughly over 600k doses for Q2. And that ignores the issue with AZ.  Of course, it would help if they could conveniently find that the J&J vaccine was suitable for the 50-60 year old's in the next few days.....

At this stage and considering they are looking at lengthening the gap between Pfizer vaccines and looking at mixing vaccines, it appears that they are going looking at Curevac at the end of Q2 or beginning Q3 as absolutely critical to saving the EU plans.


----------



## odyssey06

Apparently in the small print of the NIAC advice, it says that patients under 60 can discuss the vaccine with their GP and if the benefits outweigh the risks and the person  has made an informed decision. i.e has consented knowing the risk then they can received AZ. Assuming GP has it...



			https://twitter.com/JackHoJo/status/1382358494989402113?s=19


----------



## Sunny

odyssey06 said:


> Apparently in the small print of the NIAC advice, it says that patients under 60 can discuss the vaccine with their GP and if the benefits outweigh the risks and the person  has made an informed decision. i.e has consented knowing the risk then they can received AZ. Assuming GP has it...
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/JackHoJo/status/1382358494989402113?s=19



And the HSE are only now seeking clarification? Surely that advice should have been front and centre during the big presentation they did! Happy days though. Think most people will be happy to discuss with their GP and take the vaccine. I know I would.


----------



## Merowig

Denmark will no longer use AstraZeneca vaccine
					

Denmark has today announced it will stop using the AstraZeneca Covid-19 vaccine altogether, becoming the first European country to do so over suspected rare but serious side effects.




					www.rte.ie
				



Possibly others might follow


----------



## tomdublin

Some of those who make those decisions  seem to think that the public is too stupid to understand the concept of risk and risk balancing.


----------



## EasilyAmused

EasilyAmused said:


> The Covid Vaccine registration system is open for the 65-69 yo cohort from timorous.



These will be AstraZeneca vaccines and will be administered in the coming two weeks.


----------



## Odea

Leo Varadkar on the radio at the moment saying that those in the 60 to 69 age bracket who do not sign up to the AZ vaccine this week will probably go to the back of the queue and will probably only be considered for vaccination in the autumn.

Why do I feel I am being punished because of my age?


----------



## IsleOfMan

Heard that this morning. There was something threatening in the way he said it all right.  If 80% of all adults are to be vaccinate by the end of June why is he saying that those in the 60 to 69 age bracket will have to wait until the autumn?


----------



## Sunny

That's a stupid thing for him to say. People over 60 still have a higher risk of hospitalisation and dying then younger people. They didn't create the uncertainty over the vaccine. They didn't flip flop over who it should be used for. They didn't decide it was not suitable for a 70 year old but was fine for a 69 year old. They didn't decide that it was fine for a 60 year old but was too risky for 59 year old. They didn't issue a recommendation that says not suitable for anyone under 60 and then say give it to under 60's if they discuss with GP and accept the risks....Is the fear here about the risks of the vaccine (A declared 1 in 1 million chance of fatal blood clot) or is it litigation?

If the over 60's don't want it, there are plenty of young people smart enough to understand the risks and would be happy to take it. But 'punishing' the over 60's for vaccine hesitancy after the past few weeks is vindictive.


----------



## Purple

Sunny said:


> That's a stupid thing for him to say. People over 60 still have a higher risk of hospitalisation and dying then younger people. They didn't create the uncertainty over the vaccine. They didn't flip flop over who it should be used for. They didn't decide it was not suitable for a 70 year old but was fine for a 69 year old. They didn't decide that it was fine for a 60 year old but was too risky for 59 year old. They didn't issue a recommendation that says not suitable for anyone under 60 and then say give it to under 60's if they discuss with GP and accept the risks....Is the fear here about the risks of the vaccine (A declared 1 in 1 million chance of fatal blood clot) or is it litigation?
> 
> If the over 60's don't want it, there are plenty of young people smart enough to understand the risks and would be happy to take it. But 'punishing' the over 60's for vaccine hesitancy after the past few weeks is vindictive.


I broadly agree with you but it is hard to not be annoyed by irrational people.


----------



## Sunny

Purple said:


> I broadly agree with you but it is hard to not be annoyed by irrational people.



I agree but to be fair to people between the age of 60 and 70 being told that the vaccine is safe for them, the advice around this vaccine has changed so much that there is going to natural hesitancy. Especially in that age group without sounding ageist. We started off with the vaccine being safe for everyone, then it was for people under 70, then it was stopped, then it was restarted, then it was not suitable for anyone under the age of 60. We have Countries doing different things after months hearing about the EU and Ireland are driven by the EMA but that has now changed as well with the EMA saying the vaccine benefits still outweigh the risks but each Country is responsible for their own vaccine programme.

They should have either paused the use of the vaccine completely and sucked up the delay or else made it available to everyone on a first come, first served basis with the risks clearly communicated and accepted. Limited the vaccine to a small % of the population aged over 60 and under 70 was always going to damage the credibility of the vaccine. Even if they said it could be used by everyone over 60, I could have accepted that but to still have an upper and lower age cap suggests that they have no real idea about this vaccine.


----------



## IsleOfMan

Sunny said:


> People over 60 still have a higher risk of hospitalisation and dying then younger people


Doesn't seem to bother Leo. He seemed intent in his comments today, that you will not be vaccinated until the autumn if you don't sign up for the AZ vaccine. Regardless what risk category you are in.


----------



## EasilyAmused

I’m not in the 60-69 age group but I’d be happy to go to the back of the queue to get a non-AZ vaccine.


----------



## IsleOfMan

EasilyAmused said:


> I’m not in the 60-69 age group but I’d be happy to go to the back of the queue to get a non-AZ vaccine.


The problem is that you might decide to wait....then when you are called you might only have the AZ vaccine available.

We cannot chose what vaccine we can get but the HSE can chose what age group gets what vaccine.


----------



## Grizzly

If I decide not to register in the 60 to 69 age group for my vaccine but decide to wait until they move to the 55 to 59 age group, then register......will I be given a Pfizer?  Will I even be called for vaccination or will my age be flagged in some way and ignored for inclusion in that group?


----------



## Merowig

IsleOfMan said:


> The problem is that you might decide to wait....then when you are called you might only have the AZ vaccine available.
> 
> We cannot chose what vaccine we can get but the HSE can chose what age group gets what vaccine.


I disagree on that - one can decline to get vaccine X - but you might have to wait (potentially a long time but I guess no one knows) till you are again offered a vaccine (which can be again x or can be the one you prefer).
If you do not want to wait you have to accept what is offered - otherwise you might wait longer. It is a personal decision depending on your risk level in regards to Covid etc ...

It is my body so I decide if I take a vaccine or not and if I decide to take one it will be as well my choice which one - not the governments.


----------



## michaelm

Grizzly said:


> If I decide not to register in the 60 to 69 age group for my vaccine but decide to wait until they move to the 55 to 59 age group, then register......will I be given a Pfizer?  Will I even be called for vaccination or will my age be flagged in some way and ignored for inclusion in that group?


Who knows.  But I suspect that it would probably work out and you'd be offered the same vaccine as the rest of the cohort.  

The AZ vaccine seems to be the poor cousin of the Pfizer in terms of efficacy, side effects, and dealing with variants.  We should either stop using it or offer it with caveats to whomever wants it, issues notwithstanding.  We definitely shouldn't be forcing it on sexagenarians with threats if refused.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Grizzly said:


> If I decide not to register in the 60 to 69 age group for my vaccine but decide to wait until they move to the 55 to 59 age group, then register......will I be given a Pfizer?  Will I even be called for vaccination or will my age be flagged in some way and ignored for inclusion in that group?


Well you have to give your PPS number so, dunno how you can avoid the cohort you belong to.


----------



## EasilyAmused

IsleOfMan said:


> The problem is that you might decide to wait....then when you are called you might only have the AZ vaccine available.


If there is one thing we know about AZ, there will never be too much of it.
The EU and Irish government will turn their backs on AZ ASAP.
They’ve already ordered non AZ vaccines for 2022 and 2023.


----------



## noproblem

I'll be getting vaccinated, couldn't give a hoot which vaccine I get and when I do, and if I don't die, I'll be booking a winter stay in Cyprus starting in October. Bring it on is what I say. Lot of whinging going on among some, but I think they'd find an excuse no matter what good news was out there.


----------



## Grizzly

michaelm said:


> Who knows. But I suspect that it would probably work out and you'd be offered the same vaccine as the rest of the cohort.


Why don't they allow us to do this instead of Leo coming on the radio and telling us that we will have to go to the back of the queue and wait until the Autumn if we don't sign up NOW.
If the over 60's are a higher risk, surely he should be trying to get vaccines in to us as soon as possible and allow people to choose.


----------



## Sophrosyne

I am 68 and in group 4.

I got the first dose of the AstraZeneca vaccine on April 1st last.

I felt more tired than usual for a few days, but no other effects.

I have an appointment for the 2nd dose on June 24th next.

While some risks have been identified so far, on balance, I reckon it is in my best interest to receive the 2nd dose as it would protect me against the worst effects of COVID-19 should I contract it.

I realize of course, that neither AstraZeneca nor any other vaccine will guarantee protection against contracting COVID-19 and so I will continue to observe health guidelines, which are also in my interest.

If there is one thing we know about this pandemic, it is uncertainty.

Ongoing research and new discoveries may alter or modify health advice, but I can only decide on the basis of current recommendations from NIAC.

*Recommendations*

Any authorised COVID-19 vaccine, including Vaxzevria COVID-19 vaccine AstraZeneca, is recommended for those aged 60 years and older including those with medical conditions with very high or high risk of severe COVID-19 disease.
Vaxzevria COVID-19 vaccine AstraZeneca is not recommended for those aged under 60 years including those with medical conditions with very high or high risk of severe COVID-19 disease.
A second dose of Vaxzevria COVID-19 vaccine AstraZeneca should not be given to anyone who developed unusual blood clots with low platelets after the first dose.
Advice for those who have received a first dose of Vaxzevria COVID-19 vaccine AstraZeneca is:
Those aged 60 and older should receive their second dose 12 weeks later as scheduled.
Those aged under 60 years *with* a very high risk or high-risk medical condition should receive their second dose 12 weeks later as scheduled.

Those aged under 60 years *without* a very high risk or high-risk medical condition should have the scheduled interval between doses extended to 16 weeks to allow further assessment of the benefits and risks as more evidence becomes available.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

noproblem said:


> I'll be getting vaccinated, couldn't give a hoot which vaccine I get and when I do, and if I don't die, I'll be booking a winter stay in Cyprus starting in October. Bring it on is what I say. Lot of whinging going on among some, but I think they'd find an excuse no matter what good news was out there.


I agree and if the vaccines had taken the normal time to develop we wouldn't have any vaccines and the situation would be worse by a very large factor.

It's really down to the manufacturers to work out what is causing these issues. J&J are actively doing this with the authorities in the US, I haven't seen any comments from AZ what their scientific people are doing.

The 60/69  group has almost 480,000 people and according to RTE over 9000 people registered today in the first hour. A vast majority will take this vaccine.

Edit:used incorrect figure for cohort population


----------



## EasilyAmused

Sophrosyne said:


> If there is one thing we know about this pandemic, it is uncertainty.


Probably the most accurate statement I’ve read since those while malarkey started.


----------



## joer

There is going to be uncertainty and risks no matter what vaccination and or information a person receives . But I will be registering this week and will get the vaccine when my time comes. I am confidant the AZ vaccine is good enough.


----------



## Merowig

Merowig said:


> Denmark will no longer use AstraZeneca vaccine
> 
> 
> Denmark has today announced it will stop using the AstraZeneca Covid-19 vaccine altogether, becoming the first European country to do so over suspected rare but serious side effects.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.rte.ie
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Possibly others might follow











						Norway's public health institute recommends axing AstraZeneca jab
					

It comes a day after Denmark became the first country in Europe to abandon the jab over links with very rare blood clots.




					www.euronews.com
				




Norway likely to follow


----------



## tomdublin

Allowing people to choose their vaccine would introduce a raft of new logistical complications into the system and delay things further.  The risk with any authorized covid vaccine is infinitesimally small.  Seniors who keep moaning about this should feel a little bit less selfish and entitled and a bit more grateful for the sacrifices younger generations are making on their behalf.


----------



## Eureka101

I’m 47 and all my friends of this age in London have been vaccinated and both my parents have now had 2 jabs of AZ. They simply cannot understand what all the fuss is about and all the while the discussion about AZ goes around and around in circles the UK continues to open up and the people there are able to start making plans and are living their lives again. 
It comes down to one simple thing, the tiny risk of side effects of taking AZ ( or any medicine ) versus the risk of Covid. 
I will be following their example and would get AZ tomorrow if it meant speeding up the opening of Ireland.
We just need to get on with this as the alternative is worse.


----------



## joer

There are risks with everything in life. I will gladly take the AZ .


----------



## Grizzly

Hundreds of thousands of Londoners tested amid South African variant fears
					

Some 44 confirmed cases of the variant have been found in south London, with a further 30 probable cases identified.




					www.thejournal.ie
				




I think I read that the AZ vaccine might not offer much protection to the South African variant of Covid?  I am not so confident being forced to accept the AZ vaccine in the 60 to 69 age group or else go to the back of the queue as Leo V says.

It seems that the 60 to 69 age group are in the high risk category but will be given the lesser quality AZ vaccine or none at all for several months if you don't accept.


----------



## Tintagel

I was not impressed, again, with Stephen Donnelly on Prime Time last evening.

He had to be asked the same question three times by the presenter but just couldn't grasp what he was being asked.

"Why are the 60 to 69 year olds being told that they will have to go to the back of the queue if they won't accept the AstraZeneca vaccine even though they are considered to be in a high risk age bracket for Covid complications."


----------



## Tintagel

I won't be impressed if I take the old model AZ vaccine to discover that the new model will be on the road in the autumn with better protection against newer variants of Covid -19. It will be a bit like buying a new car only to discover that a new model version is to be released within a few weeks.

If Pfizer and Moderna are giving high rates of protection against B117 and P1 then why in God's name are older people, 60/69 being forced to take the AZ vaccine?


----------



## Firefly

Sophrosyne said:


> I am 68 and in group 4.


Didn't have you down for a geezer Sophrosyne!


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Virus variant detected in India has double mutation
					

The discovery of a new coronavirus variant in the UK, which was detected in India, features two mutations that could be a cause for concern, a health expert has said.




					www.rte.ie
				




Not totally surprised at this but  it will add another layer to the vaccine rollout of every country.


----------



## odyssey06

At this stage given the cohort I am in I am hoping by the time my turn comes it will be J&J so one dose 'fully vaccinated' for now, and then a Pfizer booster shot to come in the next phase.


----------



## odyssey06

Not sure if it was mentioned, but the idea for AZ to be given to under 60s if the GP and patient agreed to it has been taken off the table.


----------



## odyssey06

So expect to hear this phrase in the coming months 'breakthrough infections' i.e. where vaccinated people were infected.

*CDC*_, which has been tracking breakthrough cases since February, on Wednesday said roughly 5,800 people who have been vaccinated against the coronavirus have subsequently contracted the virus, with about 396—or 7%--requiring hospitalization and 74 people passing away. About 29% of the infections were asymptomatic._









						How worrying are 'breakthrough' infections? Here's what Fauci and other experts say.
					

A small portion of the millions of Americans vaccinated against the coronavirus have had 'breakthrough infections,' testing positive for the virus despite being fully vaccinated, CDC said on Wednesday. However, experts say such cases are not surprising—and shouldn't deter anyone from getting...




					www.advisory.com


----------



## joe sod

odyssey06 said:


> Not sure if it was mentioned, but the idea for AZ to be given to under 60s if the GP and patient agreed to it has been taken off the table.


What's the reason for that I wonder, surely it makes sense to let people make up their own minds at this stage? Maybe they think that if a lot of people take it up it will undermine niac and the government decisions. The whole theme throughout the pandemic has been to remove autonomy from the people and they are very reluctant to give any of it back. Also the level of secrecy around the decision making and why they are making certain decisions is worrying.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

PatrickSmithUS said:


> Wrong.
> 
> View attachment 5509


I'm really convinced now after you posted that.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

odyssey06 said:


> So expect to hear this phrase in the coming months 'breakthrough infections' i.e. where vaccinated people were infected.
> 
> *CDC*_, which has been tracking breakthrough cases since February, on Wednesday said roughly 5,800 people who have been vaccinated against the coronavirus have subsequently contracted the virus, with about 396—or 7%--requiring hospitalization and 74 people passing away. About 29% of the infections were asymptomatic._
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How worrying are 'breakthrough' infections? Here's what Fauci and other experts say.
> 
> 
> A small portion of the millions of Americans vaccinated against the coronavirus have had 'breakthrough infections,' testing positive for the virus despite being fully vaccinated, CDC said on Wednesday. However, experts say such cases are not surprising—and shouldn't deter anyone from getting...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.advisory.com


Yep and they continue to monitor.


----------



## odyssey06

Am hoping this will help with any AZ skepticism here in our over 60s.

Chancellor Angela Merkel will be vaccinated with the AstraZeneca coronavirus jab on Friday, German media outlets reported.









						Merkel to get Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine: Reports
					

Chancellor expected to receive jab day after European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen.




					www.politico.eu


----------



## Merowig

Paul O Mahoney said:


> I'm at loss as to why you simply reject one vaccine when it's really unknown what's causing the issues or what kind of people are more susceptible.


I would claim that the unknown would be reason enough to reject it - especially if one is younger and not in a covid risk group. No need to play guinea pig. Depends obviously on every ones appetite for risk etc.


----------



## Leo

PatrickSmithUS said:


> Wrong.



How does that prove your point? If they're obliged to provide any treatment on demand why do so many travel abroad for services they refuse to cover? Vikki Phelan is only one of many cases where the HSE have refused to provide treatments.


----------



## Merowig

odyssey06 said:


> Am hoping this will help with any AZ skepticism here in our over 60s.
> 
> Chancellor Angela Merkel will be vaccinated with the AstraZeneca coronavirus jab on Friday, German media outlets reported.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Merkel to get Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine: Reports
> 
> 
> Chancellor expected to receive jab day after European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.politico.eu


But also she has access to top hospitals and doctors if need to be. The average person living in Ireland won't have quick access to the BWK Koblenz or the Charite.
But yeah with 66 years she is definitely not in the risk group for the observed AZ side effects.

Edit: Here the proof that she received the vaccination


----------



## odyssey06

Merowig said:


> But also she has access to top hospitals and doctors if need to be. The average person living in Ireland won't have quick access to the BWK Koblenz or the Charite.
> But yeah with 66 years she is definitely not in the risk group for the observed AZ side effects


I am hoping word has gone out and heard even in our hospitals that these clots shouldn't be treated as typical clots - that seemed to exacerbate the situation.
So should the worse happen to anyone who receives the vaccine their odds are better now hopefully.


----------



## Merowig

Australia had its first fatality connected to AstraZeneca 
A 48 year old woman









						NSW woman's fatal blood clotting likely linked to AstraZeneca vaccine, medical regulator says
					

The Therapeutic Goods Administration confirms the fatal blood clotting suffered by a 48-year-old Australian woman is likely linked to the AstraZeneca COVID-19 vaccine.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## joe sod

Merowig said:


> Edit: Here the proof that she received the vaccination


that yellow WHO booklet looks a bit old , maybe its a soviet era one she had for travel to Cuba or something  , they would hardly issue one today with hand writing especially in Germany surely. I thought the WHO was against vaccine passports anyway so I doubt they would have certificates ready to go. But Its good she got the AZ vaccine she is a scientist afterall and understands risks and probability


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Pregnant women in UK told to have Pfizer or Moderna vaccines
					

Pregnant women in Britain should get a COVID-19 vaccine made by Pfizer (PFE.N) or Moderna (MRNA.O) because there is more real-world data to show they are safe, the British public body that advises on vaccinations said on Friday.




					www.reuters.com
				




The reach of the mRna vaccines appears to be growing. This is positive news and with trials now advanced on 12 to 16 year old children its possible that larger portions of populations will be vaccinated.


----------



## johnwilliams

*odyssey06 "CDC*_, which has been tracking breakthrough cases since February, on Wednesday said roughly 5,800 people who have been vaccinated against the coronavirus have subsequently contracted the virus, with about 396—or 7%--requiring hospitalization and 74 people passing away. About 29% of the infections were asymptomatic."
is this after first or second dose ?_


----------



## odyssey06

johnwilliams said:


> *odyssey06 "CDC*_, which has been tracking breakthrough cases since February, on Wednesday said roughly 5,800 people who have been vaccinated against the coronavirus have subsequently contracted the virus, with about 396—or 7%--requiring hospitalization and 74 people passing away. About 29% of the infections were asymptomatic."
> is this after first or second dose ?_


The same thought occurred to me but the article didn't go into that level of detail 
It didn't explain also how long after vaccination the infection occurred.


----------



## Merowig

joe sod said:


> that yellow WHO booklet looks a bit old , maybe its a soviet era one she had for travel to Cuba or something  , they would hardly issue one today with hand writing especially in Germany surely. I thought the WHO was against vaccine passports anyway so I doubt they would have certificates ready to go. But Its good she got the AZ vaccine she is a scientist afterall and understands risks and probability


The communist East German vaccine passports for Kids were red , for adults green if I recall.
These yellow vaccine passports are still issued in Germany and also Ireland ... all good here. The passports consists of date, vaccine type, sticker with the batch number, doctors name and signature and stamp.
What the WHO thinks in regards to this doesn't matter.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

johnwilliams said:


> *odyssey06 "CDC*_, which has been tracking breakthrough cases since February, on Wednesday said roughly 5,800 people who have been vaccinated against the coronavirus have subsequently contracted the virus, with about 396—or 7%--requiring hospitalization and 74 people passing away. About 29% of the infections were asymptomatic."
> is this after first or second dose ?_


After 2 doses they were described as fully vaccinated. I actually read this last week but can't find the article I read, but it said that 23% (74m) were fully vaccinated and these 5800 got re-infected.


----------



## peemac

Has anyone done an analysis of the relatively few deaths from blood clots. Have they separated deaths caused before it became known there was a small risk of blood clots from the vaccine and any deaths after it was known as a side affect.

Looks like it was early march (or late Feb) that a connection was seen, but late march before it really widely known and an eye kept out by medics.

The treatment for the clotting related to the vaccine is meant to be different to other clotting scenarios and needs different intervention/medication.

If it could be shown that any clotting incidents can now be managed without serious outcomes, you'd probably get confidence back in the vaccine fairly quickly.


----------



## Sophrosyne

As I understand it the risk of blood clots is not in the 60 to 69 age group unless there is an underlying predisposal.

NIAC have recommended that AstraZeneca is not to be given to those under 60 until better evidence becomes available.

Breakthrough cases can happen with any of the vaccines.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

No change to Govt policy on vaccine priority list
					

There is no change to the official Government policy on the vaccine priority list to focus on people aged 18 to 30, a spokesperson has told RTÉ News.




					www.rte.ie
				




The government might be changing the rollout again. 
They seem to be really making this up now. 
The age group that they are proposing are least likely to die and in general recover well from infection , they are also  the group who aren't abiding fully with the restrictions.

I just can't get my head around this .


----------



## odyssey06

Paul O Mahoney said:


> No change to Govt policy on vaccine priority list
> 
> 
> There is no change to the official Government policy on the vaccine priority list to focus on people aged 18 to 30, a spokesperson has told RTÉ News.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.rte.ie
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The government might be changing the rollout again.
> They seem to be really making this up now.
> The age group that they are proposing are least likely to die and in general recover well from infection , they are also  the group who aren't abiding fully with the restrictions.
> 
> I just can't get my head around this .


They have lost all scientific credibility at this stage. They switched to age based rollout over high exposure only weeks ago and now this. Makes no sense other than as a political move.
18-30 also least likely i imagine to opt for vaccine.


----------



## Sunny

odyssey06 said:


> They have lost all scientific credibility at this stage. They switched to age based rollout over high exposure only weeks ago and now this. Makes no sense other than as a political move.
> 18-30 also least likely i imagine to opt for vaccine.



Hard to see the merit in the idea alright or indeed a lot of their recent decisions like hotel quarantine but looking at it, appears that the Minister of Health just asked them to look at it. I would probably want all options looked at as well even if I didn't think they would work. I think at this stage, it is clear that someone is briefing against Donnolly. The IT have now had this story and the story about Donnolly and the twitter mentions in the past week.

And I am going to lie down after offering a partial defence of Stephen Donnolly....


----------



## Prosper

Paul O Mahoney said:


> they are also the group who aren't abiding fully with the restrictions.


That's the reason.


----------



## joe sod

odyssey06 said:


> They have lost all scientific credibility at this stage. They switched to age based rollout over high exposure only weeks ago and now this. Makes no sense other than as a political move.
> 18-30 also least likely i imagine to opt for vaccine.


they lost all credibility as soon as the vaccines started in january, they should have been administering one dose like the UK have been doing ages ago rather than just considering it now. Probably they thinking if they going to introduce vaccine passports for the oldies then they need to have the young vaccinated to serve them in restaurants and be their golf caddies. 
The vaccine passport talk has created a rat race for vaccines


----------



## Merowig

[Exclusive] Four deaths after taking Russian Sputnik V vaccine
					

Four people recently died after taking Russia's Sputnik V anti-corona jab in previously unreported cases, which are being taken "seriously" by the EU regulator, the European Medicines Agency.




					euobserver.com
				



It is a viral vector vaccine like AstraZeneca so doesn't come as a surprise


----------



## odyssey06

Glynn says no data there at present to justify prioritising younger cohorts









						No plans to change vaccine rollout to prioritise younger cohorts, says Health Minister
					

Donnelly said he asked about changing the plan due to a previous NIAC reccommendation.




					www.thejournal.ie


----------



## joer

Somebody went with a story that was"nt a story at all....it seems..


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

joer said:


> Somebody went with a story that was"nt a story at all....it seems..


Well if he asked the question privately got the answer privately a story wouldn't have developed. 
This guy really needs to stop putting out tweets and concentrate more on what needs doing.
I'm very slow to criticise but this lad needs to start " pulling his socks up " .


----------



## joer

He has not too many strong points all right. He does not come across as been confident in what he is saying.


----------



## Prosper

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Well if he asked the question privately got the answer privately a story wouldn't have developed.


Some of the scientists in Nphet etc enjoy the relationships they've developed with journalists. More than likely one of them leaked it. One thing we've learned about journalists over the last decade especially, is that they aren't all that concerned with accuracy (remember the Cervical Smear debacle?) when it comes to undermining confidence in a minister. 
It makes no sense for Donnelly to leak it or anyone in Govt. because it would give the Opposition another chance to claim they are "flying kites".


----------



## tomdublin

Prosper said:


> Some of the scientists in Nphet etc enjoy the relationships they've developed with journalists.


And vice versa, but many of these journalists remain scientifically illiterate, lacking a basic grasp of concepts such as statistical probability and causality versus correlation.


----------



## joe sod

And some of these experts have come up with daft ideas, I think Kingston mills was promoting the vaccinate the under 30s idea yesterday. I think Niac credibility is damaged due to the chopping and changing over AZ vaccines, the whole vaccine rollout is behind because other vaccines are similar type. The "abundance of caution" principle they are following is flawed after all if the vaccine developers were to follow that it would be years before we had a vaccine. No consideration is given to the delays as if "abundance of caution" has no consequences.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

joe sod said:


> And some of these experts have come up with daft ideas, I think Kingston mills was promoting the vaccinate the under 30s idea yesterday. I think Niac credibility is damaged due to the chopping and changing over AZ vaccines, the whole vaccine rollout is behind because other vaccines are similar type. The "abundance of caution" principle they are following is flawed after all if the vaccine developers were to follow that it would be years before we had a vaccine. No consideration is given to the delays as if "abundance of caution" has no consequences.


It was the experts who shot the idea down.  And "abundance of caution " is an American term and is to do with pausing the J&J vaccine. 
If you are going to " have a go" at least use some facts .
And just remember most of those who you dislike have far more experience and expertise than you or anyone here.


----------



## Sunny

Paul O Mahoney said:


> It was the experts who shot the idea down.  And "abundance of caution " is an American term and is to do with pausing the J&J vaccine.
> If you are going to " have a go" at least use some facts .
> And just remember most of those who you dislike have far more experience and expertise than you or anyone here.



Ronan Glynn used the term 'abundance of caution' when explaining why they chose 60 as the cut off age for Astrazeneca and how they could have picked a younger age if they had wanted. And it is a silly term to use.

Also Kingston Mills is just as much an expert as the people on NPHET. Whether he is right or wrong is not the point.  So are all the other 'experts' talking about the risks of schools opening, advocating zero covid, mandatory quarantine, how we should open up more, how we need to use antigen testing, how outdoor activities are dangerous/safe....

One thing we are not short of are experts willing to give an opinion and they have all come out of the woodwork. It's not just the pretend experts on AAM either. There is always an expert to be found who will agree/disagree with the experts on NPHET. I even heard an Epidemiological Professor the other day make the point that Philip Nolan has no background in either Public Health or Epidemiology and we should practically be listening to him instead. So even experts with far more experience or expertise than anyone here are not above having a go at other experts......


----------



## joe sod

Paul O Mahoney said:


> It was the experts who shot the idea down. And "abundance of caution " is an American term and is to do with pausing the J&J vaccine.


Possibly it sounds like that alright but it was also used by the Irish bodies a lot, in any case the Americans can indulge in an "abundance of caution" since they have an abundance of vaccines. It's critical now that we get vaccines out to as many people as possible by summer we don't have the luxury anymore to indulge in an "abundance of caution" with the north and UK open our restrictions are becoming meaningless and unenforceable


----------



## IsleOfMan

Does anyone know if those in the 65 to 69 age bracket who have registered online been called for their vaccination?  Are they calling those people from areas of the city, first where there have been high case numbers?


----------



## odyssey06

IsleOfMan said:


> Does anyone know if those in the 65 to 69 age bracket who have registered online been called for their vaccination?  Are they calling those people from areas of the city, first where there have been high case numbers?


I have heard of 69 year olds getting appointments, I think it all depends on the capacity and location of the Mass Vaccination Centres but could be wrong on that.


----------



## peemac

IsleOfMan said:


> Does anyone know if those in the 65 to 69 age bracket who have registered online been called for their vaccination?  Are they calling those people from areas of the city, first where there have been high case numbers?


69 year old in Terenure getting the jab tomorrow. His 67 year old wife is expecting to get it next week.


----------



## IsleOfMan

I'm due to get my jab at the Aviva today. Are there delays at the car park etc, or would I be better off parking out on the road and walking in?

I heard that there were delays of up to an hour just to get in to the car park at City West yesterday.

How long is the process taking at the Aviva?


----------



## joe sod

I see huge pressure on niac now to approve the Johnson vaccine for younger age groups, Leo varadker and others have now weighed in. Even sam mcconkey has said that there are consequences from only looking at one side of the equation. Looks like "abundance of caution" is out the window now as the pressure is ramping up now on these bodies. Their PR people have probably told them never use "abundance of caution" again


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

joe sod said:


> I see huge pressure on niac now to approve the Johnson vaccine for younger age groups, Leo varadker and others have now weighed in. Even sam mcconkey has said that there are consequences from only looking at one side of the equation. Looks like "abundance of caution" is out the window now as the pressure is ramping up now on these bodies. Their PR people have probably told them never use "abundance of caution" again


It's already approved? and has been for weeks now.


----------



## Sunny

joe sod said:


> I see huge pressure on niac now to approve the Johnson vaccine for younger age groups, Leo varadker and others have now weighed in. Even sam mcconkey has said that there are consequences from only looking at one side of the equation. Looks like "abundance of caution" is out the window now as the pressure is ramping up now on these bodies. Their PR people have probably told them never use "abundance of caution" again



I can guarantee that they won't come and say the vaccine is only safe for people aged 60-70. If I was a betting man, I will hazzard a guess that the vaccine will be suitable for either 50-60 or for 40-60 year olds which will be very convenient.......


----------



## joe sod

Sunny said:


> I can guarantee that they won't come and say the vaccine is only safe for people aged 60-70. If I was a betting man, I will hazzard a guess that the vaccine will be suitable for either 50-60 or for 40-60 year olds which will be very convenient.......


I'd say they were going to approve it for over 50s but the heavy political pressure will push them to reduce that again , they have to dial down the one sided "abundance of caution" stuff and actually think about consequences, it's not a simplistic one sided equation anymore.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

__





						EU snubs extra 300 mln J&J, Astra shots in bet on Pfizer-source
					

BRUSSELS — The European Union won’t take up an extra 300 million doses of AstraZeneca and Johnson & Johnson COVID-19 vaccines that it has secured as options…




					financialpost.com
				




Interesting story and there are other reports that the EU are seeking legal action against Astrazeneca, but nothing confirmed.


----------



## Sophrosyne

joe sod said:


> they have to dial down the one sided "abundance of caution" stuff and actually think about consequences, it's not a simplistic one sided equation anymore.



Can you explain what you mean by that @joe sod?


----------



## joe sod

Sophrosyne said:


> Can you explain what you mean by that @joe sod?


I don't use obtuse language or jargon like others do , it's fairly obvious what Im saying , niac are only looking at one side of the equation, the tiny risk of blood clots and trying to minimize that tiny risk even more, however they are not taking into account the delays in vaccine rollout and the enormous economic costs of every week of delays and restrictions. 
Their rationale seems to be nobody will die from a blood  clot but the consequences of that decision is not our responsibility, it's for others to deal with . That's not good enough even a scientific technical body must look at the consequences.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

PatrickSmithUS said:


> If you don't mind me asking what was the reason for not completing the procedure?


They didn't have the necessary equipment, they tried to get me into a hospital that had the equipment but I never heard anything back. They also misdiagnosed me so I probably wasn't seen as "urgent ".
My wife persuaded me to go to another doctor in a private hospital and thats where I was diagnosed with cancer. 

Ironically I was returned to the public system as the private hospital didn't have the equipment nor expertise to treat my now rapidly spreading cancer.


----------



## Purple

That's terrible news @Paul O Mahoney .
I'm sure I'm not alone here in being shocked and saddened. For what it's worth my thoughts are with you.


----------



## Sophrosyne

joe sod said:


> niac are only looking at one side of the equation, the tiny risk of blood clots and trying to minimize that tiny risk even more, however they are not taking into account the delays in vaccine rollout and the enormous economic costs of every week of delays and restrictions.
> Their rationale seems to be nobody will die from a blood clot but the consequences of that decision is not our responsibility, it's for others to deal with . That's not good enough even a scientific technical body must look at the consequences.



Why would you expect anything else?

It is doing exactly what it was set up to do.

*NIAC *provides evidence-based advice on vaccines, immunisation and health related matters to inform health policies.  It has not yet made any recommendations in relation to Johnson & Johnson. It is involved in several international meetings in connection this vaccine and will issue its findings after those meetings take place.

*NEPHET *was established in January 2020 to oversee and provide national direction, guidance, support and expert advice on the development and implementation of a strategy to contain COVID-19. 

The recommendations of both bodies are subject to change depending on developments, globally and here in Ireland.

It is the Government that must balance health and economic priorities.

*Right now,* the priority is virus suppression. If it is not suppressed *and* remain suppressed, business cannot open or stay open for long.

The greater the transmission rate, the greater the opportunity for mutation, which might challenge the efficacy of current vaccines.

If the economy is your concern, then virus suppression should also be your concern rather than persistently howling at the moon.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Purple said:


> That's terrible news @Paul O Mahoney .
> I'm sure I'm not alone here in being shocked and saddened. For what it's worth my thoughts are with you.


Thanks, I'm fine now but it has been a journey.


----------



## joe sod

Sophrosyne said:


> *Right now,* the priority is virus suppression. If it is not suppressed *and* remain suppressed, business cannot open or stay open for long.
> 
> The greater the transmission rate, the greater the opportunity for mutation, which might challenge the efficacy of current vaccines.
> 
> If the economy is your concern, then virus suppression should also be your concern rather than persistently howling at the moon.


Look it, I've been saying that the vaccine rollout needs to be ramped up yesterday not tomorrow, the delaying and "abundance of caution " stuff is actually is one of the reasons we are behind . The assumptions by niac and nphet that week's and months of restrictions can continue indefinitely is false. Why are niac waiting until next week to make a decision, are they not able to make a decision in parallel with the decision that the ema were making. There are Johnson vaccines sitting in storage awaiting their deliberations. Luke o neill is saying the same thing for the last month. I don't think the guys in these government bodies have the confidence to make a decision quickly , that's why they love the term "abundance of caution", unfortunately in the real world decisions have to be made quickly


----------



## almostthere

Last Wednesday it took me two hours from entering the Aviva to the time of leaving for me to get my vaccine.

This Friday my wife was able to do it in one hour.

Comparing notes, it seems we both had a different experience, even down to the type of questions and advice given to us by the nurse administering the jab.

My wife even got a bit of cotton wool taped over her injection point and I didn't......I felt a bit neglected when I heard this.


----------



## EasilyAmused

Paul O Mahoney said:


> This guy really needs to stop putting out tweets and concentrate more on what needs doing.



In mid-January, when Covid deaths in Ireland were at their worst, Stephen Donnelly complained to the HSE that his Twitter handle wasn’t being mentioned in enough of the HSE tweets.
They guy is a disaster and he’s getting worse.


----------



## Purple

EasilyAmused said:


> In mid-January, when Covid deaths in Ireland were at their worst, Stephen Donnelly complained to the HSE that his Twitter handle wasn’t being mentioned in enough of the HSE tweets.
> They guy is a disaster and he’s getting worse.


Bring back Simon...


----------



## EasilyAmused

That was last week’s news. Today:
Donnelly least-mentioned Minister in department tweets
via The Irish Times








						Donnelly least-mentioned Minister in department tweets
					

Minister for Health mentioned in just 6% of his department tweets, research finds




					www.irishtimes.com


----------



## odyssey06

A family member is in Group 7 of high risk, under 60.
Their GP surgery is not participating in the rollout because "AZ is not available".

Family member now seems to be in limbo as there doesn't seem to be any Plan B?
GP hasn't said anything along the lines of "We will register you for an MVC" and self registration on HSE is age based only.

Anyone else in same boat?


----------



## EasilyAmused

Good news:


EU sues AstraZeneca over delayed deliveries
https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2021/0426/1212147-eu-vaccine-astrazeneca/


----------



## EasilyAmused

Was listening to a PodCast today. 
AZ is only 10% effective against the SA variant.

Also, if every man, women and child in Ireland was vaccinated with AZ tomorrow we still wouldn’t have herd immunity as the efficacy is below the estimated HI level.


----------



## odyssey06

EasilyAmused said:


> Was listening to a PodCast today.
> AZ is only 10% effective against the SA variant.
> 
> Also, if every man, women and child in Ireland was vaccinated with AZ tomorrow we still wouldn’t have herd immunity as the efficacy is below the estimated HI level.


Was that a new real study or the same small sample size with huge confidence interval thats been knocking around for ages?


----------



## EasilyAmused

I don’t know. I think the 10% figure was Kingston Mills. The other is just maths I guess. Obvious when you think of it. Though the HI value is an estimate anyway. Some say 50%, other 70%, yaddayaddayadda.


----------



## Sunny

Sunny said:


> I can guarantee that they won't come and say the vaccine is only safe for people aged 60-70. If I was a betting man, I will hazzard a guess that the vaccine will be suitable for either 50-60 or for 40-60 year olds which will be very convenient.......



Well I would love to say I am surprised....I have to say that even though I am sure they know what they are doing, it is hard not to think that they are making this stuff up as they go along......... What science is there to support putting these restrictions on this vaccine? They obviously know something that the EMA and US Regulators don't....









						NIAC expected to recommend J&J for over-50s
					

The National Immunisation Advisory Committee is expected to recommend the use of the Johnson & Johnson vaccine for those aged 50 and older in Ireland.




					www.rte.ie


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

odyssey06 said:


> Was that a new real study or the same small sample size with huge confidence interval thats been knocking around for ages?


I believe these were small studies with one in mid March of 750. This was known at the start of February after a smaller observational study of 45 .
It's not certain exactly what protection it gives as mass rollout in South Africa was halted then and I can't find anywhere if it still not being used.


----------



## odyssey06

The J&J decision is a disaster for rollout.
That was to be the single dose vaccine easily rolled out in pharmacies etc like flu vaccine.

We may have to slow down vaccination of 40s and 50s to do in parallel using pfizer for 40 somethings.


----------



## joe sod

Sunny said:


> Well I would love to say I am surprised....I have to say that even though I am sure they know what they are doing, it is hard not to think that they are making this stuff up as they go along......... What science is there to support putting these restrictions on this vaccine? They obviously know something that the EMA and US Regulators don't....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NIAC expected to recommend J&J for over-50s
> 
> 
> The National Immunisation Advisory Committee is expected to recommend the use of the Johnson & Johnson vaccine for those aged 50 and older in Ireland.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.rte.ie


"abundance of caution" thats whats behind it , they don't have the confidence to make a call themselves, it was obvious they were awaiting the US regulator decision, because that was positive they went with the over 50s rather than over 60s which was probably their intention . It calls into question the whole credibilty of niac and why we are even bothering with them . We would be better off just abiding by the EMA and I know I was critical of them for their indecision earlier.
But Niac saying you can still use the Johnson vaccine if you don't have an alternative shows they havn't a clue themselves, its either safe or it isn't and they are unable to make a definitive call on it. It seems like they are covering their asses and also don't want to be blamed if the vaccine rollout is delayed


----------



## Prosper

8 cases (cases not deaths) of blood clots out of 7 million doses of J&J vaccine in the US. If it was 100 times that I'd still take it. In the Irish Times yesterday they say that Dr Michelle Lavin, consultant haematologist in the National Coagulation Centre refers to a study that found, among women of child-bearing age, the risk of venous thromboembolism (VTE) is 4 per 10,000 women (nothing to do with any meds). This increases to 20-30 per 10,000 women during pregnancy and in the twelve weeks after. So the J&J vaccine will result in 1 blood clot in 87.5 x 10,000 doses. It's miniscule risk. There's got to be something else to it.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Prosper said:


> 8 cases (cases not deaths) of blood clots out of 7 million doses of J&J vaccine in the US. If it was 100 times that I'd still take it. In the Irish Times yesterday they say that Dr Michelle Lavin, consultant haematologist in the National Coagulation Centre refers to a study that found, among women of child-bearing age, the risk of venous thromboembolism (VTE) is 4 per 10,000 women (nothing to do with any meds). This increases to 20-30 per 10,000 women during pregnancy and in the twelve weeks after. So the J&J vaccine will result in 1 blood clot in 87.5 x 10,000 doses. It's miniscule risk. There's got to be something else to it.


At the time the FDA paused there was one death and another was in critical condition, the CDC are now actively looking into another death in the past few days.
Yes the risks are very small but when it happens the effects of a death are no less devastating.
I still maintain that the buck stops with the manufacturers/agenicies to work out what are causing these


----------



## Sunny

Paul O Mahoney said:


> At the time the FDA paused there was one death and another was in critical condition, the CDC are now actively looking into another death in the past few days.
> Yes the risks are very small but when it happens the effects of a death are no less devastating.
> I still maintain that the buck stops with the manufacturers/agenicies to work out what are causing these



You keep saying that but the effects of a death from covid are no less devastating and the risk is much higher. We take medicines and vaccines every day that carry risks. You have a one in a 1000 chance of seizures after the MMR vaccine. People getting the flu vaccine run the small risk of severe allergic reactions. I am not aware of a vaccine out there that does not carry at least a 1 in a million chance of a serious side effect. 

Neither the FDA nor the EMA put restrictions on the J&J vaccine. Since the start of this crisis, we were told we take our advice around travel, masks etc from the ECDC so it seems strange we have now decided that we should do our own thing when it comes to vaccines especially since NIAC are using EMA and FDA data to make their decisions. 

We how have a situation where the vaccine is not suitable for people under 50 unless you are in hard to reach setting. So basically the risk is acceptable for homeless people. Doesnt sound scientific to me.

And before the usual 'they are the experts' argument starts, there are plenty of experts today saying exactly the same thing.


----------



## Ceist Beag

My guess is that once they start rolling out vaccinations to the under 50s this decision will be revised accordingly...


----------



## almostthere

joe sod said:


> they went with the over 50s rather than over 60s which was probably their intention .


Does anyone know why they picked the over 50's for the J & J?

It strikes me that the over 50's is the next cohort coming up. They have the vaccines on tap so the over 50's will be getting these like it or not, just as the over 60's were given the AZ, like it or not.

It is beginning to look as if the attitude is "O.K. Narnia said these vaccines are safe, let's get rid of them now, who's next....OK give it to them".


----------



## Sophrosyne

One of my siblings - aged 66 no underlying conditions - got the AstraZeneca jab this morning in City West. 
All very organized, in and out in less than 40 minutes.

Jab given by a member of the army medical corps. There were also being administered by nurses and pharmacists.

They said at least 1,500 would be vaccinated in City West today.


----------



## Sunny

Sophrosyne said:


> One of my siblings - aged 66 no underlying conditions - got the AstraZeneca jab this morning in City West.
> All very organized, in and out in less than 40 minutes.
> 
> Jab given by a member of the army medical corps. There were also being administered by nurses and pharmacists.
> 
> They said at least 1,500 would be vaccinated in City West today.



Anyone I know who had the vaccine spoke very well about how it worked on the day and how it was organised which is good. Only heard one story where a 75 year old woman got her first vaccine and was given a date 4 weeks later in the Helix for the second. It was on Sunday and when she questioned it, she was told they vaccinate people 7 days a week. She turned up on the Sunday to find the Helix vaccination centre closed. She rang to get another appointment and was told she would have to wait 5 weeks. She pointed out that this would mean a 9 week gap between doses. They said they would ring her back and of course nothing. GP said there was nothing he could do as they just provided list to HSE.   Last I heard she was just planning on turning up at one of the centres....


----------



## Prosper

I think the word "story" in your story is very apt. "Stories" get modified and altered in the retelling. There's a lot of people putting out "stories".


----------



## Sunny

Prosper said:


> I think the word "story" in your story is very apt. "Stories" get modified and altered in the retelling. There's a lot of people putting out "stories".



Except the story was my sisters mother in law. My brother in law drove her in for the non existent appointment. It didn't come from the man down the street who was talking to another man in Dunnes. You don't need to believe it. I am not saying it is widespread. Thousands of people are being vaccinated successfully. But, there are still issues. Some are to be expected but some can be avoided. And dragging elderly people to non existent appointments and then not resolving the issue can be avoided.


----------



## odyssey06

NIAC have also decided against spacing out Pfizer doses to 6 weeks, even though this is within manufacturer guidelines.
This would have gotten more vaccines to the unvaccinated instead focus is on the the small additional protection afforded by the 2nd dose.


----------



## Purple

I'm not a big fan of the healthcare industry but in fairness to GPs the constant moving of the goalposts and the inevitable slew of irate phone calls must be frustrating.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

odyssey06 said:


> NIAC have also decided against spacing out Pfizer doses to 6 weeks, even though this is within manufacturer guidelines.
> This would have gotten more vaccines to the unvaccinated instead focus is on the the small additional protection afforded by the 2nd dose.


I think the caution of sticking with the present regime is due to the variants we know both Pfizer and Moderna are more effective against them but with 2 doses.


----------



## odyssey06

Paul O Mahoney said:


> I think the caution of sticking with the present regime is due to the variants we know both Pfizer and Moderna are more effective against them but with 2 doses.


But giving that extra protection means you leave other people with zero protection for longer.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

odyssey06 said:


> But giving that extra protection means you leave other people with zero protection for longer.


I agree but we haven't vaccinated one group fully yet.
Once the  elderly and vulnerable are fully vaccinated they should re-look at it especially for the sub 50s as they will only be getting the mRNA based on present advice.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

odyssey06 said:


> But giving that extra protection means you leave other people with zero protection for longer.











						Covid: One dose of vaccine halves transmission - study
					

People who get coronavirus after their first jab are up to 49% less likely to pass it on, research suggests.



					www.bbc.com
				




This study would give the idea of spacing out the doses a lot of credibility . As it's a UK study it only reviewed AZ and Pfizer, but it wouldn't be a stretch to think that these kind of benefits would accompany Moderna's and J&Js vaccine.


----------



## almostthere

I got the first AZ jab last week.  I am told it takes 3 weeks to become effective?  As each day goes by am I becoming better protected or is the protection loaded on the 3rd week?

Is it 65% protection with first jab AZ?


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

almostthere said:


> I got the first AZ jab last week.  I am told it takes 3 weeks to become effective?  As each day goes by am I becoming better protected or is the protection loaded on the 3rd week?
> 
> Is it 65% protection with first jab AZ?


After 12 days your immune system will be building up your resistance and at that will continue to build.
Protection really depends on your immune system if yours is robust it'll take less time to achieve a high level of protection. 

Yes it's about 65%-68% after first jab and this can vary , this is a high level of protection and if you continue to wear a mask and wash your hands etc you'll be adding further protection.


----------



## Clamball

There are a lot of little problems with the scheduling and I think it will quickly move to open, make your own appointment vaccination schedule.  We all heard of front-line staff being offered multiple appointments.

With cohort 4 there are multiple stories of different hospitals department contacting a patient offering the vaccine.  This freed up a slot for another patient.  I am getting my first vaccine dose tomorrow through my gp, was phoned last Friday with an appointment.  I was phoned again this morning being offered the vaccine and another appointment.  Pretty soon anyone they can identify in cohort 4 will be contacted and I know they have already moved on to the pregnant ladies, one of my staff is getting hers today.  But there will be gaps and missed people (I know a hospital Porter still waiting for his vaccine), he missed the round and “is on a list” but not being called for some reason.

I can see them having all 30-50 yr old registration opened by end of May, and then by end June I would think that clinics will offer slots to anyone for booking.  

That 75 yr old lady is probably better off registering on the portal for a first dose and getting her second shot that way?  Maybe not.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Clamball said:


> There are a lot of little problems with the scheduling and I think it will quickly move to open, make your own appointment vaccination schedule.  We all heard of front-line staff being offered multiple appointments.
> 
> With cohort 4 there are multiple stories of different hospitals department contacting a patient offering the vaccine.  This freed up a slot for another patient.  I am getting my first vaccine dose tomorrow through my gp, was phoned last Friday with an appointment.  I was phoned again this morning being offered the vaccine and another appointment.  Pretty soon anyone they can identify in cohort 4 will be contacted and I know they have already moved on to the pregnant ladies, one of my staff is getting hers today.  But there will be gaps and missed people (I know a hospital Porter still waiting for his vaccine), he missed the round and “is on a list” but not being called for some reason.
> 
> I can see them having all 30-50 yr old registration opened by end of May, and then by end June I would think that clinics will offer slots to anyone for booking.
> 
> That 75 yr old lady is probably better off registering on the portal for a first dose and getting her second shot that way?  Maybe not.


The hospital system is broken and it was inevitable that multiple hospitals would be offering multiple appointments to patients.
Everytime a patient that is sent to another hospital for treatment for the same illness, that hospital creates a new hospital number and file for the patient.

An absolute mess.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

HSE on target to vaccinate 450,000 per week - Taoiseach
					

Taoiseach Micheál Martin has said the Health Service Executive remains on target to vaccinate 450,000 people each week by mid-June and reach overall targets for the population.




					www.rte.ie
				




I find it difficult to see how 450k vaccines a week will be administered. We don't get that many delivered and doubt we ever will.
Pfizer/BioNTech are the only one that are reliable with about 606000 in April, this includes the 191000 that arrived today.


----------



## odyssey06

Paul O Mahoney said:


> HSE on target to vaccinate 450,000 per week - Taoiseach
> 
> 
> Taoiseach Micheál Martin has said the Health Service Executive remains on target to vaccinate 450,000 people each week by mid-June and reach overall targets for the population.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.rte.ie
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I find it difficult to see how 450k vaccines a week will be administered. We don't get that many delivered and doubt we ever will.
> Pfizer/BioNTech are the only one that are reliable with about 606000 in April, this includes the 191000 that arrived today.


Maybe if pharmacies get involved?


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

odyssey06 said:


> Maybe if pharmacies get involved?


It's more the supply side AZ aren't increasing and we J&J have only made one delivery and I can't see 600k from them in the next 2 months. 

I think GPs and Pharmacies should be used more, send them all the AZ and JJ that comes in, use the Pfizer and Moderna in the large centers and see how that works.


----------



## Prosper

Paul O Mahoney said:


> I find it difficult to see how 450k vaccines a week will be administered. We don't get that many delivered and doubt we ever will.
> Pfizer/BioNTech are the only one that are reliable with about 606000 in April, this includes the 191000 that arrived today.


Maybe Taoiseach got deal from Biden on Paddy's Day. Obviously couldn't announce it publicly.


----------



## EasilyAmused

According to RTE News last night, those 51 and over would be vaccinated with AZ, J&J, Pfizer or Moderna.
According to RTE News last night, those 50 and under would be vaccinated with Pfizer or Moderna.


----------



## Rosjohn

I'm 68, registered 16th April. Have heard nothing since.
5 people I know aged 65 and 66 have registered, got their appointments, 4 of them now got their jab.
Obviously not strictly being done on an age basis.
I've checked and am registered "awaiting appointnent".


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Pfizer asks EMA to authorise jab for 12 to 15-year-olds
					

Pfizer and BioNTech have asked the European Medicines Agency to authorise their Covid-19 vaccine for 12- to 15-year-olds, a move seen as a crucial step toward achieving herd immunity.




					www.rte.ie
				




As our children are young adults this development won't directly affect our family but I would imagine most parents will be happy with this?


----------



## michaelm

Most maybe.  I'd image there'd be a sizeable number who would be hesitant to give their child a rushed vaccine for the greater good.


----------



## odyssey06

michaelm said:


> Most maybe.  I'd image there'd be a sizeable number who would be hesitant to give their child a rushed vaccine for the greater good.


What makes you say it is a rushed vaccine and why is that a concern? 
What steps do you think were taken say during development of say the MMR vaccine that were not taken for Pfizer and what potential issues could  be missed by that?


----------



## michaelm

Is it not the fastest vaccine in history, by a long way?  No doubt all the vaccines went through all the various steps.  Yet there are question marks over a number of them which the trials did not unearth.  The roll-out is a beta test.  The optics are not great.  It seems, so far, that this virus isn't much of a threat to children so giving them the vaccine is more about protecting 'the herd'. 

Many will remember the rush to dole out Pandermix, the indemnity the the Government provided to the supplier and that the State made those children damaged by it have to fight through the courts to be looked after.


----------



## odyssey06

michaelm said:


> Is it not the fastest vaccine in history, by a long way?  No doubt all the vaccines went through all the various steps.  Yet there are question marks over a number of them which the trials did not unearth.  The roll-out is a beta test.  The optics are not great.  It seems, so far, that this virus isn't much of a threat to children so giving them the vaccine is about protecting 'the herd'.
> 
> Many will remember the rush to dole out Pandermix, the indemnity the the Government provided to the supplier and that the State made those children damaged by it have to fight through the courts to be looked after.


I don't think longer trials would have detected the issues though, open to correct on that. It is such a rare chance the only way it would really have been spotted is when large volumes of people were vaccinated, far larger than any trial could ever enroll.
In practice if this was a normal medicine, the issues would only be discovered after X number of people were prescribed it and reported side effects.
We are vaccinating so fast there is a lag between the effects being noticed and responses taken (such as how to treat the clots).

But I take your point on it being purely about herd immunity.


----------



## johnwilliams

when will the 50 to 59 signup dates start ?
will the 50 to 59 be bunched together or will they be as an example  say ,  monday would be  59, then tuesday 58 etc etc
what is the proper link to register ,my google showing to me is weird (getting a www2.hse wont put up the rest of it as i dont trust it maybe its right
could mods post a sticky with proper link for everyone


----------



## EasilyAmused

michaelm said:


> Most maybe.  I'd image there'd be a sizeable number who would be hesitant to give their child a rushed vaccine for the greater good.



Fast rather then rushed. There were no corners cut in the testing. 
Field data from Israel has confirmed the testing.


----------



## EasilyAmused

johnwilliams said:


> when will the 50 to 59 signup dates start ?
> will the 50 to 59 be bunched together or will they be as an example  say ,  monday would be  59, then tuesday 58 etc etc
> what is the proper link to register ,my google showing to me is weird (getting a www2.hse wont put up the rest of it as i dont trust it maybe its right
> could mods post a sticky with proper link for everyone



The 40-49 age group may be vaxxed in parallel with the 50-59 age group. The former with mRNA and the latter with J&J


----------



## EasilyAmused

Minister of Health Stephen Donnelly expects 82% of the population to have received at least on vaccination by June 31st (sic).


----------



## tomdublin

The "82%" suggests how flaky and PR contaminated this seems to be.  How come the government suddenly claims to have such a precise figure of future vaccine deliveries up to 8 weeks down the road?


----------



## Clamball

Would you live in a more remote part of Ireland?  I could see a situation where the closer you live to a large vaccination centre like the helix the faster you might get an appointment as they would have more slots.  But if you were in west Clare for example they might do a weekly clinic in a town for everyone in the 65-69 bracket.   Really just speculation on my part.

My 19 yr old was vaccinated (cohort 4) at a large centre and she said it was all young people that morning  (many between 16-18 as they had a parent with them) so they must be doing bunches of similar cohorts together in the larger centres rather than next in the list.


----------



## EasilyAmused

Delivery figures of AZ suggest we’ll soon have an excess of it.


----------



## Prosper

Got the jab this morning. Appointment was for 10:30. Entered the Aviva at 10:25 and joined the queue for registration (have your photo id ready). Registration complete at 10:39 and walked to join queue for the jab. Have your jacket off and arm ready for the jab. Entered cubicle for jab at 10:53 and exited at 10:56. Walked short distance to post jab waiting area and left it at 11:15.
When you register you will be given a card with your name and DOB on it. Put this card away safely as you will need it when you go to get the second jab 12 weeks later. Don't keep this card in your hand as at each stage you are asked to sanitise your hands and if you have the card in your hand you could drop it.


----------



## Deiseblue

I'm aged  66 , registered on the first possible opportunity but haven't received an appointment as yet.
My wife who's some years younger got her vaccine today and whilst being monitored post vaccine asked the guy in charge was there a reason why she received the vaccine before me ?
He asked was I with her and when she told him I was waiting in the car he cleared me through security , opened a desk for me where I gave my PPS number and then into a booth where I was vaccinated - all in all it took 5 minutes and then 15 minutes being monitored. 
Unbelievably helpful by all concerned.


----------



## Rosjohn

68, registered 16/4/21.
Still waiting.....


----------



## Coconut Water

How do they assess age when applying for the vaccine? Age at the start of the year or age when applying?


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Coconut Water said:


> How do they assess age when applying for the vaccine? Age at the start of the year or age when applying?


Whatever your age at date of application.


----------



## joer

I registered on Sunday 18th April. Got my text message Appointment  on Thursday 22 nd and was Vaccinated on Saturday May 1st.


----------



## peemac

EasilyAmused said:


> Minister of Health Stephen Donnelly expects 82% of the population to have received at least on vaccination by June 31st (sic).


I thought he would have corrected himself by the end of the interview, but repeated it at least twice 

But you have to laugh at tabloid headlines "public FUME over date error" and calling it a "major blunder"

Of course these tabloid journalists are perfection personified and never ever make an error themselves


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

EXCLUSIVE Novavax plans to ship COVID-19 vaccines to Europe from late 2021 - EU source
					

Novavax (NVAX.O) has told the European Union it plans to begin delivering its COVID-19 vaccine to the bloc towards the end of this year, new guidance that could lead to a formal contract being signed as early as this week, an EU official told Reuters.




					www.reuters.com
				




Although this vaccine hasn't yet been approved it was viewed as an important additions to countries supplies as it provided very good protection against the South African variant, looks like it'll be 2022 before its available.


----------



## EasilyAmused

That’s good news. The SA variant is the second most dominant variant in Ireland.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

EasilyAmused said:


> That’s good news. The SA variant is the second most dominant variant in Ireland.


Except its due to be approved soon and its manufacturing issues that are delaying its rollout.


----------



## Purple

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Except its due to be approved soon and its manufacturing issues that are delaying its rollout.


Yea, it turns out developing and making vaccines is hard, requires thousands of scientists, doctors, engineers and technicians, vast infrastructure, complex supply chains and billions of Euro. Who knew?

I thought they just threw some stuff in a Kenwood Chef, banged it in the oven then made billions of Euro and used it to fund the Illuminati/ Bill Gates/ The International Zionist Conspiracy and/or The Lizard People (great name for a band).

Now it seems that there aren't tens of thousands of people who are all part of a grand conspiracy, all evil and all capable of keeping their mouths shut and the companies they work for are actually owned by pension funds and the like.

Maybe the technical issues and delays are caused by technical issues and the, you know, really difficult process of making vaccines.


----------



## EasilyAmused

Purple said:


> The Lizard People (great name for a band).



Too Doors-ie though. What with Jim Morrison being The Lizard King.


----------



## almostthere

https://covid19-vaccine-report.ecdc.europa.eu/
		


Update on European vaccine rollout.


----------



## joe sod

I see Joe Biden wanted to allow a patent vaccine waiver for corona vaccines but only after the majority of US citizens are vaccinated and after he had blocked vaccine exports to those very countries including AZ vaccines that they were not even using. How is Joe Biden allowed to pontificate on vaccines given their shameful selfishness and then attempting to virtue signal and damage the european vaccine rollout. Thankfully Angela Merkel has shot this proposal down . If Biden wants to show his virtue let him donate US vaccines to the developing world now


----------



## Purple

joe sod said:


> I see Joe Biden wanted to allow a patent vaccine waiver for corona vaccines but only after the majority of US citizens are vaccinated and after he had blocked vaccine exports to those very countries including AZ vaccines that they were not even using. How is Joe Biden allowed to pontificate on vaccines given their shameful selfishness and then attempting to virtue signal and damage the european vaccine rollout. Thankfully Angela Merkel has shot this proposal down . If Biden wants to show his virtue let him donate US vaccines to the developing world now


Yep, while the UK and USA have effective vaccine export bans the EU has allowed the export of about 50% of the vaccines we've produced so far.


----------



## EasilyAmused

If you want to help, there’s the Get A Vaccine Give A Vaccine campaign.









						Get a Vaccine, Give a Vaccine | COVID-19 Appeal | UNICEF Ireland
					

UNICEF is delivering 3 billion COVID-19 vaccines to the most vulnerable families, health workers and high-risk people on our planet. Click to learn more.



					www.unicef.ie


----------



## grenzgebiet

Does anyone know which group - age or otherwise - is being offered the Pfizer vaccine in Ireland at present ?


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

grenzgebiet said:


> Does anyone know which group - age or otherwise - is being offered the Pfizer vaccine in Ireland at present ?


Over 70 and under 50 ( vulnerable), I'm sure  some 50 to 69 might be getting Pfizer if nothing else is available. 

Second doses would be probably the vast amount of Pfizer doses now as AZ is for 69 to 50.

It's an exercise I was going to " get to " using ECDC data but my polytunnel has taken over my time.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

EasilyAmused said:


> If you want to help, there’s the Get A Vaccine Give A Vaccine campaign.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Get a Vaccine, Give a Vaccine | COVID-19 Appeal | UNICEF Ireland
> 
> 
> UNICEF is delivering 3 billion COVID-19 vaccines to the most vulnerable families, health workers and high-risk people on our planet. Click to learn more.
> 
> 
> 
> www.unicef.ie


Since we aren't paying directly for ours people might give this consideration.  It will go a very long way.


----------



## grenzgebiet

Thank


Paul O Mahoney said:


> Over 70 and under 50 ( vulnerable), I'm sure  some 50 to 69 might be getting Pfizer if nothing else is available.
> 
> Second doses would be probably the vast amount of Pfizer doses now as AZ is for 69 to 50.
> 
> It's an exercise I was going to " get to " using ECDC data but my polytunnel has taken over my time.


Thank you for that Paul OM,  
seems like 50 to 70 group is getting a raw deal all round, with not even one mRNA option available to them.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

US authorizes Pfizer coronavirus vaccine for children ages 12 to 15
					

Move expands inoculation program as vaccination rates slow




					www.theguardian.com
				




And yet I've heard that some states are offering beer and steaks to the over 40% of adults who don't want to be vaccinated. 
Some are saying that the US might not get to 60% of adults vaccinated where does that leave the world?


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

grenzgebiet said:


> Thank
> 
> Thank you for that Paul OM,
> seems like 50 to 70 group is getting a raw deal all round, with not even one mRNA option available to them.


There are so many contradictory messages about each vaccine it's difficult to be clear on what is the most effective.

Each vaccine have  issues with side-effects but the reality is each one is by far better than contracting Covid.

Taking the UK for example AZ has been used and a few small studies appear to indicate that its more effective in older people than mRna but I take those assertions to be biased as I doubt any comparative studies with mRNA have been carried out.

Going forward we will probably be getting annual vaccines and I would imagine they will be mRna as other vaccines such as Curevac will be available and production will be in Europe and the EU have ordered 1.8bn Pfizer/BioNTech


----------



## EasilyAmused

Paul O Mahoney said:


> US authorizes Pfizer coronavirus vaccine for children ages 12 to 15
> 
> 
> Move expands inoculation program as vaccination rates slow
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And yet I've heard that some states are offering beer and steaks to the over 40% of adults who don't want to be vaccinated.
> Some are saying that the US might not get to 60% of adults vaccinated where does that leave the world?



It has become very politically partisan in the USA. Vaccination rates in “red” electoral areas are very low whereas rates are high in “blue” areas.

However, with a Democrat President I expect they’ll sort this out, by hook or by crook. 
Children must be fully vaccinated to attend schools in the USA. I expect they’ll make life legally awkward to anti-vaxxers.

In Russia they’re offering free ice-cream after the Covid jab. Uptake is only about 10% despite the 91% efficacy of Sputnik V.  There’s  a cultural distrust of the state in Russian.


----------



## michaelm

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Each vaccine have issues with side-effects but the reality is each one is by far better than contracting Covid.


Indeed.  But would we order, or do we need to use, AZ and J&J vaccines now given that most at-risk people are vaccinated and the health system is no longer under threat of collapse?  It seems that the HSE are trying to push down the acceptable age for AZ & J&J in part to hit arbitrary vaccine targets and so as not to 'waste' vaccines that have been paid for.  Methinks we should give surplus such vaccines to COVAX.

I will register in the hope of getting an mRNA vaccine.  I'll probably be a no-show otherwise.


----------



## Purple

Funny how we all want the new vaccine rather than the one that's based on 100 year old proven technology.


----------



## Sunny

The problem with the AZ vaccine isn't the safety. It is the ridiculous time between doses. 16 weeks for under 60's is crazy. You can't blame people not wanting it when they are looking at people getting the second dose after 4 weeks for other vaccines.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Purple said:


> Funny how we all want the new vaccine rather than the one that's based on 100 year old proven technology.


It's over 200 years Jenner created/used the first vaccine against "cowpox" in 1798 I think .  
Still works though.


----------



## Prosper

michaelm said:


> I will register in the hope of getting an mRNA vaccine. I'll probably be a no-show otherwise.


Why would you not show up?


----------



## EasilyAmused

J&J all the way.


----------



## almostthere

Sunny said:


> It is the ridiculous time between doses. 16 weeks for under 60's is crazy


A family member is getting her second jab after 17 weeks.


----------



## michaelm

Purple said:


> Funny how we all want the new vaccine rather than the one that's based on 100 year old proven technology.


Indeed.  Although I guess if those [mostly younger women] who died with the rare brain clots, had got the new vaccine rather than the 100 year old proven technology one, they'd still be alive today.


Prosper said:


> Why would you not show up?


I've decided against taking the AZ or J&J vaccine.  If my text says I'm slated for one of those I'll ring them to decline.


----------



## Purple

michaelm said:


> Indeed.  Although I guess if those [mostly younger women] who died with the rare brain clots, had got the new vaccine rather than the 100 year old proven technology one, they'd still be alive today.
> 
> I've decided against taking the AZ or J&J vaccine.  If my text says I'm slated for one of those I'll ring them to decline.


Are you a young women?


----------



## EasilyAmused

michaelm said:


> I've decided against taking the AZ or J&J vaccine.  If my text says I'm slated for one of those I'll ring them to decline.



Will they let you know in advance what vaccine it is?
I’d avoid AZ too if I knew in advance. I don’t think we’re buying any more of it come July.

Current indications suggest I’ll be getting J&J. I’d happy out with this.


----------



## michaelm

EasilyAmused said:


> Will they let you know in advance what vaccine it is?


Yes, in the text.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

michaelm said:


> Indeed.  Although I guess if those [mostly younger women] who died with the rare brain clots, had got the new vaccine rather than the 100 year old proven technology one, they'd still be alive


Sorry but that is nonsense in 99% of cases in any vaccine there isn't issues and I even include those that were highlighted in hysterical newspaper articles and false science by nutters like Wakefield and our own Cahill.
Every vaccine bar 3 the mRNA ones , has more or less followed Jenners model. If anything the mRna vaccines would be30 the vaccines to be sceptical of as we know nothing of their long term effects on the body. MRna technology is 30 years old , 20 years of trying and failing and was still failing until Biontech clicked that it could might be used in a vaccine in early 2020.

The probability of the planet having an mRna vaccine this time last year were in the .0001% bracket of possibility, and had it failed we would be pumping the 200 year technology into our arms without question. 

Your decision to refuse is not based on anything but fear and fear will cause you to not only put your own health in danger but also those who are in your life. Covid isn't going anywhere and will be present for ever,in my opinion .


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Just to say my best friend is 54 and his wife 55 she got AZ in January and him April both had sore arms and fatigue for 2 days , they wouldn't be super fit, but they are fine.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

EasilyAmused said:


> Will they let you know in advance what vaccine it is?
> I’d avoid AZ too if I knew in advance. I don’t think we’re buying any more of it come July.
> 
> Current indications suggest I’ll be getting J&J. I’d happy out with this.


We may not be buying more but we will be getting our contracted volume.


----------



## michaelm

Paul O Mahoney said:


> If anything the mRna vaccines would be30 the vaccines to be sceptical of as we know nothing of their long term effects on the body.


Funnily enough someone said to me that they would take the traditional vaccines but not the new technology mRNA ones.


Paul O Mahoney said:


> Your decision to refuse is not based on anything but fear and fear will cause you to not only put your own health in danger but also those who are in your life. Covid isn't going anywhere and will be present for ever,in my opinion .


Not to doubt your crystal ball but my decision is based on various factors.  A tad dramatic to suggest that I'd be a danger to all and sundry with so many vaccines floating around.  I too reckon Covid will be around forever and that we will all get it, vaccinated or not . . but that's just my opinion as I've no qualifications in epidemiology or public health.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

michaelm said:


> Funnily enough someone said to me that they would take the traditional vaccines but not the new technology mRNA ones.
> 
> Not to doubt your crystal ball but my decision is based on various factors.  A tad dramatic to suggest that I'd be a danger to all and sundry with so many vaccines floating around.  I too reckon Covid will be around forever and that we will all get it, vaccinated or not . . but that's just my opinion as I've no qualifications in epidemiology or public health.


Never said "all and sundry " micheal.


----------



## Purple

michaelm said:


> Not to doubt your crystal ball but my decision is based on various factors.


Yes, but @Paul O Mahoney  is just pointing out that none of those factors are rational.


----------



## Prosper

michaelm said:


> I've decided against taking the AZ or J&J vaccine. If my text says I'm slated for one of those I'll ring them to decline.


But why?


michaelm said:


> but my decision is based on various factors


What factors?


----------



## michaelm

Hiding to nothing but here goes . . although statistically, and practically, the AZ vaccine poses no risk to me it seems to be the poor cousin of the Pfizer one re efficacy, response to variants and side effects.  I do not like how they keep chopping and changing age brackets (and 2nd dose timing) - firstly it was for everyone; then not for the over 70's (methinks when it started pushing the very frail over the edge), then only for the over 60's, re blood clots; now that we have an AZ glut to shift, it's fine for the over 50's.  If I was a year younger they wouldn't give it to me.  In the UK it was for everyone, then only the over 30's, now only the over 40's.  Germany also in a muddle, meanwhile other countries have stopped it altogether as they have vaccinated the most at-risk and have other vaccines available.

The HSE's current line is "AZ is currently not recommended for people under the age of 50. This is because of a very rare risk of getting unusual blood clots with low platelets after having the vaccine.  This is a precaution because people under 50 are less likely to get severe COVID-19 disease and there are other vaccines available."

I'm just over 50 and very fit and healthy.  I expect I am less likely to get severe COVID-19 and there are other vaccines available.  I'm not the smartest guy in the room and have no interest in what others choose, but happily, as this isn't China, it's my prerogative.


----------



## EasilyAmused

michaelm said:


> Hiding to nothing but here goes . .



I feel much the same. This time last year it was “Oxford vaccine” this and “Oxford vaccine” that. Out by September.
“Team headed by an Irish woman”. Yaddayaddayadda!

The reality has been their inability to live up to their supply promises, Brexit inspired vaccine nationalism, testing errors, the EMA not being happy with the quality of their data leading to a request for improved data, low efficacy against the 2021 strains, et cetera.

I’m half expecting to show up to the vaccine centre, to find Maurice Pratt in scrubs taking a vial out of a Yellow Pack.
 

No thanks. I’ll have, in terms of preference, J&J, Pfizer, Moderna, Sputnik V.


----------



## joer

Both my wife and I had our AstraZeneca vaccines. I was fine with just a stiff arm for a day or two. My wife was sick , very bad headache and no energy, the next day . The second day she was fine.  
We would take the sickness over getting Covid any time. 
It just affects people in various ways. The sooner we get the second one the better .


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

joer said:


> Both my wife and I had our AstraZeneca vaccines. I was fine with just a stiff arm for a day or two. My wife was sick , very bad headache and no energy, the next day . The second day she was fine.
> We would take the sickness over getting Covid any time.
> It just affects people in various ways. The sooner we get the second one the better .


I heard similar effects.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

michaelm said:


> Hiding to nothing but here goes . . although statistically, and practically, the AZ vaccine poses no risk to me it seems to be the poor cousin of the Pfizer one re efficacy, response to variants and side effects.  I do not like how they keep chopping and changing age brackets (and 2nd dose timing) - firstly it was for everyone; then not for the over 70's (methinks when it started pushing the very frail over the edge), then only for the over 60's, re blood clots; now that we have an AZ glut to shift, it's fine for the over 50's.  If I was a year younger they wouldn't give it to me.  In the UK it was for everyone, then only the over 30's, now only the over 40's.  Germany also in a muddle, meanwhile other countries have stopped it altogether as they have vaccinated the most at-risk and have other vaccines available.
> 
> The HSE's current line is "AZ is currently not recommended for people under the age of 50. This is because of a very rare risk of getting unusual blood clots with low platelets after having the vaccine.  This is a precaution because people under 50 are less likely to get severe COVID-19 disease and there are other vaccines available."
> 
> I'm just over 50 and very fit and healthy.  I expect I am less likely to get severe COVID-19 and there are other vaccines available.  I'm not the smartest guy in the room and have no interest in what others choose, but happily, as this isn't China, it's my prerogative.


Incredible, and a nice bit of conspiracy and self preservation being disguised as " factors " not an iota of science or reference to the millions of doses delivered all over the globe.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

EasilyAmused said:


> I feel much the same. This time last year it was “Oxford vaccine” this and “Oxford vaccine” that. Out by September.
> “Team headed by an Irish woman”. Yaddayaddayadda!
> 
> The reality has been their inability to live up to their supply promises, Brexit inspired vaccine nationalism, testing errors, the EMA not being happy with the quality of their data leading to a request for improved data, low efficacy against the 2021 strains, et cetera.
> 
> I’m half expecting to show up to the vaccine centre, to find Maurice Pratt in scrubs taking a vial out of a Yellow Pack.
> 
> 
> No thanks. I’ll have, in terms of preference, J&J, Pfizer, Moderna, Sputnik V.


It was developed by Oxford University, universities generally don't have manufacturing capabilities so, like so many others they outsourced the manufacturing/distribution to Astrazeneca under a JV agreement.


----------



## Sophrosyne

michaelm said:


> I'm just over 50 and very fit and healthy. I expect I am less likely to get severe COVID-19 and there are other vaccines available. I'm not the smartest guy in the room and have no interest in what others choose, but happily, as this isn't China, it's my prerogative



If you don't take the vaccine offered for your age group, when will you be vaccinated and what will you do in the meantime?


----------



## almostthere

joer said:


> Both my wife and I had our AstraZeneca vaccines. I was fine with just a stiff arm for a day or two. My wife was sick , very bad headache and no energy, the next day . The second day she was fine.
> We would take the sickness over getting Covid any time.
> It just affects people in various ways. The sooner we get the second one the better .


For us, just sore arm, lack of energy, headache.....plus my wife had terrible chills during night.  Lasted a couple of days. Chills gone after the first night.

I would be interested to hear when after we get the second AZ jab are the side effects the same or more or less?


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

almostthere said:


> For us, just sore arm, lack of energy, headache.....plus my wife had terrible chills during night.  Lasted a couple of days. Chills gone after the first night.
> 
> I would be interested to hear when after we get the second AZ jab are the side effects the same or more or less?


Again from friend in the UK only adverse effect after the 2nd dose was a sore arm for a day.
Your immune system will be used to having the vaccine after the first but as everyone is unique nothing is certain.


----------



## EmmDee

almostthere said:


> For us, just sore arm, lack of energy, headache.....plus my wife had terrible chills during night.  Lasted a couple of days. Chills gone after the first night.
> 
> I would be interested to hear when after we get the second AZ jab are the side effects the same or more or less?



I've heard that generally the side effects happen after the first AZ vaccine and after the second Pfizer dose - so I wouldn't think you would have anything similar after the second jab


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Just to get more information out there, my wife 56 had both Pfizer jabs , sore arm and headache for 24 hrs both times.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

_








						Covid: Surge vaccinations could be used to tackle Indian variant
					

The government wants to consider "all options" to deal with the rise of the Covid variant, No 10 says.



					www.bbc.com
				



_
Just saw this on the BBC as Boris has an ability to understate reality during this pandemic, I think that this is a little more serious than his words that he uses.

It's an interesting idea to " surge jab" over 18s in high case areas.


----------



## odyssey06

HSE's Damien Mccallion says if people's GPs aren't taking part in *vaccination of cohorts 4 or 7 (high risk conditions)* there is a referral programme that has been rolled out this week which will see people in these cohorts get picked up and given appointments in vaccine centres...
That'll be done through an electronic referral system which will be open to GPs who aren't taking part in the vaccinations of Cohort 4 or 7.
- seen on Richard Chambers twitter feed


----------



## Sunny

I see Stephen Donnelly saying today that people will be considered full vaccinated four weeks after their first AZ dose. When did this happen? I thought no-one was fully vaccinated until after their second dose??


_"What NIAC have concluded is that if you get a Johnson & Johnson dose you would be deemed fully vaccinated two weeks after that dose.

"With AstraZeneca after your first dose they would view you to be fully vaccinated four weeks after your first dose, with Pfizer and Moderna it is one week and two weeks respectively after the second dose.

"So essentially what that all means is that somewhere between two weeks and six weeks of your first dose of any of these you would be deemed to be fully vaccinated", he said._


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

odyssey06 said:


> HSE's Damien Mccallion says if people's GPs aren't taking part in *vaccination of cohorts 4 or 7 (high risk conditions)* there is a referral programme that has been rolled out this week which will see people in these cohorts get picked up and given appointments in vaccine centres...
> That'll be done through an electronic referral system which will be open to GPs who aren't taking part in the vaccinations of Cohort 4 or 7.
> - seen on Richard Chambers twitter feed


The figures are very low especially in Cohort 7 . I read last week the the HSE felt that many in this Cohort were recorded by GPs in Cohort 4 but also admitted that the system wasn't working as planned. 
My database experience is somewhat limited but surely taking the PPS number as the primary identifier would have made tracking these people easier before the rollout began rather than farting around now and using scarce resources.


----------



## odyssey06

Paul O Mahoney said:


> The figures are very low especially in Cohort 7 . I read last week the the HSE felt that many in this Cohort were recorded by GPs in Cohort 4 but also admitted that the system wasn't working as planned.
> My database experience is somewhat limited but surely taking the PPS number as the primary identifier would have made tracking these people easier before the rollout began rather than farting around now and using scarce resources.


Some were assigned to Cohort 4 by GPs, some were done as part of their age group. I know of people in their 50s who were told to just register by age group on the portal as they would be done as quickly.
Then there are those whose GPs aren't participating but were under 50 and were stuck in limbo so this will be a relief to them.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Sunny said:


> I see Stephen Donnelly saying today that people will be considered full vaccinated four weeks after their first AZ dose. When did this happen? I thought no-one was fully vaccinated until after their second dose??
> 
> 
> _"What NIAC have concluded is that if you get a Johnson & Johnson dose you would be deemed fully vaccinated two weeks after that dose.
> 
> "With AstraZeneca after your first dose they would view you to be fully vaccinated four weeks after your first dose, with Pfizer and Moderna it is one week and two weeks respectively after the second dose.
> 
> "So essentially what that all means is that somewhere between two weeks and six weeks of your first dose of any of these you would be deemed to be fully vaccinated", he said._


I dunno what has changed but to put a big of logic to it perhaps the data supports this in that after one jab you have  60-70% immunity and the additional immunity from the 2nd jab makes little uplift in what is deemed "vaccinated ".

The second jab for most people would be essentially a booster in the Autumn anyway, but I agree it's a strange one.

But would the rest of the EU accept this for travel?

I'll be fully vaccinated on the 2nd of July as I'm getting Pfizer 4th and 25th of June, Pfizer are vaccinating families of employees.


----------



## Sunny

Paul O Mahoney said:


> I dunno what has changed but to put a big of logic to it perhaps the data supports this in that after one jab you have  60-70% immunity and the additional immunity from the 2nd jab makes little uplift in what is deemed "vaccinated ".
> 
> The second jab for most people would be essentially a booster in the Autumn anyway, but I agree it's a strange one.
> 
> But would the rest of the EU accept this for travel?
> 
> I'll be fully vaccinated on the 2nd of July as I'm getting Pfizer 4th and 25th of June, Pfizer are vaccinating families of employees.



Probably something like that but the protection offered after 1 dose of Pfizer is the same as far as I know but open to correction. Can't help but think it is to make it more attractive for people to accept the AZ vaccine instead of waiting for 16 weeks for the second second dose and what I thought was full immunity. 

Like you say though, if this is just a NIAC decision, will the rest of the EU accept it? I thought that one of the main dangers was partially vaccinated people getting infected and allowing the virus a change to mutate. 

Must be nice to have an end date to look forward to!


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Sunny said:


> Probably something like that but the protection offered after 1 dose of Pfizer is the same as far as I know but open to correction. Can't help but think it is to make it more attractive for people to accept the AZ vaccine instead of waiting for 16 weeks for the second second dose and what I thought was full immunity.
> 
> Like you say though, if this is just a NIAC decision, will the rest of the EU accept it? I thought that one of the main dangers was partially vaccinated people getting infected and allowing the virus a change to mutate.
> 
> Must be nice to have an end date to look forward to!


I think data from Israel and Qatar recently said they witnessed 100% immunity in some vaccinated people with and average of 96% after 2 doses , they are doing doses 21 days apart.
Personally I'm of the opinion that over 90% is probably too much but that's what has been noted, 70% immunity would still be an excellent figure the flu vaccine can be 50% of that and that has been a relatively good program. 

I am now thinking that the vaccine makers might have over egged the vaccine because we knew very little about the virus and its full effects , now that the real data from populations are flowing in perhaps a 1 dose regime might be the way forward with annual boosters?

When the vaccine rollout began I think most were just happy its happened now we might see changes, it was always going to be a fluid situation with many twists and turns.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Two millionth dose of Covid-19 vaccine set to be administered in Ireland today
					

HSE CEO Paul Reid confirmed the news at this afternoon’s HSE Covid-19 press briefing.




					www.thejournal.ie
				




Ti's all happening lads. Just a note the above says there are 650000 in the 50-59 age group while the ECDC shows 606000 ....I'd say the ECDC figures are 2016 census figures.


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## Shelby219

22m vaccinations in UK with 32 deaths and 168 serious blood clotting cases, yet 130k people died before any vaccinations,  from Covid, apply this to Ireland and we will have approximately 7 deaths from vaccinations as opposed to nearly 5000 from Covid  before vaccinations, don't be fooled by scaremongering take a vaccine,


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Shoot your shot: US state's $1m Covid vaccine lottery
					

As US officials scramble to convince citizens to get vaccinated against Covid-19, one state is putting its money where its mouth is - offering millions in lottery prizes for those who have received an injection.




					www.rte.ie
				




I knew they were giving out beer and steaks but Ohio seems to be taking it further. 
If the US don't get to a "herd" immunity level this pandemic will drag on globally,  the Indian variant in the UK has doubled in known cases in 24 hrs albeit from a low base of about 600.(again most agree the figures are very much understated)

This isn't good news


----------



## Prosper

No not good news. Fear of a super variant may result in developed countries releasing allocations of the J&J (single shot & regular refrigerator storage) and the AZ vaccines to developing countries.


----------



## Purple

Prosper said:


> No not good news. Fear of a super variant may result in developed countries releasing allocations of the J&J (single shot & regular refrigerator storage) and the AZ vaccines to developing countries.


I think that's great news. I suggested that this might/should happen a year ago.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Covid vaccines have saved 11,700 lives and 33,000 hospital admissions
					

Most deaths prevented were in the over-80s, and far fewer over-75s went to hospital, an analysis found.



					www.bbc.com
				




Well we knew that vaccines were the primary route out of this pandemic. Now Public Health England have released figures of deaths and hospitalisation that were prevented up to the end of April.

While the figures are substantial I honestly thought they would be higher. 
I have no reason why I thought this , anyway its good news.


----------



## EasilyAmused

Question regarding “herd immunity”.

Say one country, which is using Pfizer only (95% effective), is said to have achieved HI when X% of the population have received  (both) jabs.
Then another country, which is using J&J only (66% effective) is said to have achieved HI when Y% of the population have received (single) jabs.

Is Y greater than X because J&J is less effective?

(In both cases the people have received the “full course”, ie ignore the number of required jabs.


----------



## EasilyAmused

To put it another way, can HI be achieved by jabbing fewer people if the vaccine is more effective?


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## Paul O Mahoney

EasilyAmused said:


> Question regarding “herd immunity”.
> 
> Say one country, which is using Pfizer only (95% effective), is said to have achieved HI when X% of the population have received  (both) jabs.
> Then another country, which is using J&J only (66% effective) is said to have achieved HI when Y% of the population have received (single) jabs.
> 
> Is Y greater than X because J&J is less effective?
> 
> (In both cases the people have received the “full course”, ie ignore the number of required jabs.


I would think that it's a percentage of the population who have received vaccines,  the effectiveness of various vaccines might have a positive effect in the longer term .
Suppose what's the definition of herd immunity is also a factor.


----------



## joe sod

I have to say I was very critical of the HSE and EMA for delays in rolling out the vaccines earlier  but they have really stepped up the gear now. Looks like the portal for the 40 to 50 year olds, my demographic will be open next week. This is great news very happy about that


----------



## EasilyAmused

I never saw this as a delay of Irish making. Just a supply issue. All along we’ve been third in the EU and AFAIK this is still the case. We’re about 37% at the moment and the EU average is 25%.

TBH, I don’t know what all the fuss was about.

I just hope these vaccines are are effective against B1617.2


----------



## almostthere

Not sure where you are getting the 25% from...









						COVID-19 Vaccine rollout overview
					

This report provides an overview of the progress in the rollout of COVID-19 vaccines in adults (aged 18 years and above) across EU/EEA countries.




					www.ecdc.europa.eu


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

EasilyAmused said:


> I never saw this as a delay of Irish making. Just a supply issue. All along we’ve been third in the EU and AFAIK this is still the case. We’re about 37% at the moment and the EU average is 25%.
> 
> TBH, I don’t know what all the fuss was about.
> 
> I just hope these vaccines are are effective against B1617.2


There were issues internally with data and the general malaise of getting GPs etc signed up, urgencies aren't in the HSE operation guidelines for anything. 

I wrote here if the got the elderly fully vaccinated by the end of February it would be a great achievement,  they didn't do that not because of supply as it was all Pfizer and still today their own figures don't show cohort 1 fully vaccinated. 

I'm not really knocking them as we really are "sucking diesel now" but they were slow , the cohorts after healthcare workers and the very vulnerable were restrictive but now the age based system is a great success. 

They should also have used the private hospitals for vaccine rollout. 

It's still quite an achievement to be where we are and hopefully everything will continue this way.

On the Indian variants,  the transmittabilty is much higher but according to BBC today the vaccines are still effective for now, but they are concerned that mass infection will again put health systems under pressure even if mortality is lower than the other waves.

It's not over yet but on balance and knowing the boosters will be more variant focused we are in a much better place than some would have thought.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

almostthere said:


> Not sure where you are getting the 25% from...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 Vaccine rollout overview
> 
> 
> This report provides an overview of the progress in the rollout of COVID-19 vaccines in adults (aged 18 years and above) across EU/EEA countries.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ecdc.europa.eu


We are about that in first doses, but remember the EU data only include 18 and over and don't include pregnant women our population in those figures is 3.72m and I'm almost certain those aged based groups are from the 2016 census.

I have tried to reconcile the population statistics and then add 5 years to each group to try and get a more accurate group population taking into account normal mortality and births rates but got annoyed and went into the garden and polytunnel and did something constructive


----------



## EasilyAmused

I take your point. The HSE were slow. But time is relative. There were 24 EU countries slower than us. Big countries like France and Germany were slower than us.
We were never going to have it rolled out like Israel, the U.K., or the USA.

I don’t envy countries like the USA. Yes, they’re vaccine rollout is impressive. But their Covid body count has hit 600,000. That’s a lot. That’s close to how many Americans died of Spanish Flu.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney




----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Sorry tried to add the photo in the post reply but didn't do it right.  Remove if I have broken rules


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

EasilyAmused said:


> I take your point. The HSE were slow. But time is relative. There were 24 EU countries slower than us. Big countries like France and Germany were slower than us.
> We were never going to have it rolled out like Israel, the U.K., or the USA.
> 
> I don’t envy countries like the USA. Yes, they’re vaccine rollout is impressive. But their Covid body count has hit 600,000. That’s a lot. That’s close to how many Americans died of Spanish Flu.


I can't see why we couldn't be like them not probably as quick but certainly more accurate and focused for example the elderly. 

The problem is we have so many "vested interests" like the nursing home association making noise but doing nothing to assist the rollout and mocking that the recording vaccines on spreadsheet while that  group took many elderly from hospital without as much as a test and got paid handsomely and they don't even have a central database of clients as they are private enterprises who enjoy huge tax right offs .

But I think we have achieved a lot and hopefully it continues.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

What threat does Indian Covid variant pose and do vaccines work against it?
					

The number of identified cases of the B.1.617.2 variant in the UK has more than doubled in a week




					www.theguardian.com
				




The BBC/Sky News have similar headlines this isn't a good news story.


----------



## EasilyAmused

Paul O Mahoney said:


> What threat does Indian Covid variant pose and do vaccines work against it?
> 
> 
> The number of identified cases of the B.1.617.2 variant in the UK has more than doubled in a week
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The BBC/Sky News have similar headlines this isn't a good news story.


 
Yes, the last line in particular is something many people don’t seem to understand:

“Vaccines do not work 100%. If Covid is allowed to circulate at high levels among the unvaccinated population, there will still be a small proportion of vaccinated people who may get the disease and become severely ill.”


----------



## Sunny

Paul O Mahoney said:


> I can't see why we couldn't be like them not probably as quick but certainly more accurate and focused for example the elderly.
> 
> The problem is we have so many "vested interests" like the nursing home association making noise but doing nothing to assist the rollout and mocking that the recording vaccines on spreadsheet while that  group took many elderly from hospital without as much as a test and got paid handsomely and they don't even have a central database of clients as they are private enterprises who enjoy huge tax right offs .
> 
> But I think we have achieved a lot and hopefully it continues.



Sorry but that is a disgusting accusation to be made against nursing homes. You are accusing nursing homes of taking covid patients from hospitals to nursing homes and costing lives in the name of profit???

You obviously have no idea how the system works. It was nursing homes who publicly went in front of a dail committee last year saying that the HSE was discharging hundreds of elderly patients back into the nursing home system without covid tests. It wasn't up to the nursing homes to test them in hospital. It was up to the HSE and they failed. What exactly did you want to nursing homes to do? Not take the discharged patients? Leave them in hospital taking up beds and at higher risk of catching covid? 

As for the argument that they don't have a central database because they are private enterprises that enjoy huge tax write offs. What does that even mean?


----------



## odyssey06

RTE reporting that for 40-49 age group, they will be given option for viral vector vaccine (AZ, J&J) if no mRNA vaccine available.
The J&J and AstraZeneca vaccines will only be permitted to be used if an mRNA vaccine is not available at the time of vaccination.
People must be given a choice at that time on what vaccine to accept, with fully-informed consent.

Unclear what this means in practice - a text confirming appointment and vaccine type which you can accept or decline?









						360 new cases of Covid-19 confirmed
					

The Department of Health has been notified of 360 new confirmed cases of Covid-19.




					www.rte.ie


----------



## EasilyAmused

Not sure how they’ll implement it but it’s good news.
I’ll watch the lunchtime news, it might be clarified.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

More flexible storage conditions for Pfizer vaccine
					

The European Medicines Agency has approved more flexible storage conditions for the Pfizer Covid-19 vaccine, which is expected to help with the roll-out of vaccination in Ireland and other EU countries.




					www.rte.ie
				




This is another good development and will ease a number of obstacles of the rollout particularly in non urban areas. 
Of course work is continuing on having the vaccine lyophilized and this too will help with logistical issues and hopefully increase the reach of the vaccines to poorer countries .


----------



## michaelm

odyssey06 said:


> RTE reporting that for 40-49 age group, they will be given option for viral vector vaccine (AZ, J&J) if no mRNA vaccine available.


Well that's sensible.  But it seems that the 50+ cohort will still be faced with a Hobson's choice.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

This is an interesting info graphic to show how many vaccines have been delivered by the various producers. Can't see the Russian vaccine in the group, correction "Gamaleya" is Sputnik V. 

Edit, my posting of this kinda stuff isn't great


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

One million receive first Covid vaccine dose in NI - BBC News
					

Health officials confirm the landmark is passed less than six months since the vaccination programme began.




					www.bbc.co.uk
				




Just to give information on Northern Ireland, I must admit I thought they would have been further down the road, given they had vaccines a full month before us and had surety of supply for 4 months , I think things slowed down in April. 

Anyway that's probably 2m plus people on the island with first doses and most of the elderly and vulnerable fully vaccinated. This is good news.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

The above is a very good and informative piece. The website is also worth a visit just to keep tabs on the wider picture. 

From the above J&J will be reducing deliveries to the EU by 50% so while we aren't using a lot per last information released, 11th May, it will still have an effect on our rollout.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

*NPR 24 US


THE CORONAVIRUS CRISIS*


The end of this pandemic sometimes gets boiled down to two words: *herd immunity*.
But now, as an academic debate swirls over when or even if America can get to a high enough percentage of people with immunity to reach that goal, some scientists say it's time for the public to stop worrying about it.
"I think we're focusing too much of our time, our effort, on quibbling over a number," says Lauren Ancel Meyers, a professor at the University of Texas at Austin and head of the university's COVID-19 Modeling Consortium. Instead, Meyers and others say the public should follow one simple piece of advice: Get vaccinated.

*How Herd Immunity Works — And What Stands In Its Way*


"This pandemic ends when enough people are protected from severe illness, and selfishly you want to be protected from severe illness," says Devi Sridhar, a professor of public health at the University of Edinburgh in Scotland.

Vaccination "helps you and it helps your community."


*What does herd immunity mean anyway?*

The idea of herd immunity began with cows, not people. In 1916, veterinarian Adolph Eichhorn and colleagues noticed that a herd of cattle could become collectively immune to a disease if enough animals survived the initial infection.

Since then, the herd immunity threshold has become a commonly used term in epidemiology to refer to the mathematical tipping point of an infectious disease outbreak. When a certain percentage of people are immune, either through infection or vaccination, a virus runs out of places to spread. The epidemic — or, in this case, the pandemic — fades, and life goes back.


The threshold for herd immunity can vary widely from disease to disease. And with so many unknowns about the coronavirus, it's been a topic of much discussion. Over the course of the pandemic, estimates for the threshold needed to reach herd immunity have fluctuated from as low as 20% to as high as 90% or more of population.

The term herd immunity remained largely in academic circles until the spring of 2020. That's when, as the coronavirus spread across Europe, politicians such as British Prime Minister Boris Johnson suddenly found themselves talking about it on television.
The group of scientists advising Johnson at the time, according to Sridhar, included many modelers of the pandemic. Modelers build computer simulations, or models, of the future.
It was a time before vaccines, when the virus looked as though it was ripping through Asia and Italy unchecked. Some of the modelers Johnson was listening to "ran projections that showed that this was unstoppable, uncontrollable," Sridhar says. "And this led to this approach of 'herd immunity,' which is just let the virus go, let nature take its course."
It was the "take it on the chin" strategy as described by Johnson. This flavor of herd immunity was an appealing idea for conservative politicians and pundits who wanted to see economies kept open. But the policy was never enacted in Britain, in part because modelers at Imperial College London showed just how bad things could get. Today, it's widely accepted that letting the coronavirus run unfettered through a population would have led to an even more staggering death toll.
"I think if we could go back in time and they were completely honest, both the public health advisers and the leadership would say that's the wrong approach," Sridhar says.


But herd immunity stuck around in the public consciousness. Even into last fall, the Trump administration continued to toy with the idea of reaching herd immunity by allowing the coronavirus to spread mostly unchecked.
Then, when the first vaccines rolled out in December, the term got even more life — this time focusing on the immunity that's gained through vaccination. Experts such as presidential adviser Dr. Anthony Fauci began talking a lot about it, with a best guess goal of 75% to 85% nationally. "If you get that level of herd immunity, you could essentially crush this outbreak in this country," Fauci said during an interview on NPR's Morning Edition.
The appeal of this notion is clear. Achieving herd immunity sounds like a simple goal that spells the end of the coronavirus. It feels concrete — something to grab onto in a time filled with so much uncertainty, a finish line for which to strive.
But the problem with framing the goal that way, say the scientists who actually build the models, is that the herd immunity threshold is far harder to calculate reliably than many in the public realize.
Computer models aren't exactly like real life
In any model of the pandemic, "we make a bunch of assumptions that we know aren't true," says Samuel Scarpino, director of the Emergent Epidemics Lab at Northeastern University. For example, he says, computer models often drastically oversimplify the way people interact with each other, assuming for example, that "the way I decide who I'm going to have lunch with is that I put everybody in a bag and I shake the bag up and I draw somebody out at random and that's who I have lunch with."


In the real world, people only have lunch with a relatively small number of social contacts — not a random sampling of the community — and that changes the herd immunity threshold.
"It's also complicated by the fact that we may not have an even distribution of immunity," Meyers says. The herd immunity threshold is usually presented as a single, overall percentage of a population. But in a given city, "you may hear numbers like 50% of a population are immunized. But is that really 50% in every single neighborhood? Or do we have some pockets of very high levels of immunity and other pockets of low levels of immunity?"
The distinction matters. If the east side of a city is immunized and the west side isn't, then an outbreak could still spread quickly in that unimmunized area and overwhelm hospitals.
Finally, the herd immunity threshold doesn't actually mean you won't have new infections at some point in the future. "Even after you've reached the herd immunity threshold, you can still get little stuttering chains of infection going on within that population," says Erin Mordecai, a professor of biology at Stanford University. "It's just that on average the disease won't grow at that point."
"People talk about herd immunity as if it's sort of the end point, you either have it or you don't, and once you have it you keep it," says Marc Lipsitch at Harvard University. "That's not true either."
Factors such as the spread of new variants, or a time of year that drives more people indoors, or otherwise leads to more mixing, can cause huge swings in how many people need to be immune to reach or maintain herd immunity.
Since December, there have been real-world complications that have clouded the outlook for reaching the herd immunity threshold. Data out of Asia and Brazil suggests reinfection may be more common than thought. Vaccine hesitancy has emerged as an issue, as has the rise of more transmissible variants, which can drastically drive up the percentage of people who would need to be immunized to get to herd immunity. Based on current conditions, and the fact that young children are not yet eligible for vaccination, Lipsitch says he believes as much as 90% to 100% of adults would need to get vaccinated to cross the threshold.
"Based on the best calculations I know how to do, it will be impossible or very difficult to reach [herd immunity] in many parts of the United States," he says.
But that could all change again in the future, depending on new real-world conditions.
And in the end, Mordecai says, it may not matter so much, in terms of corralling the virus enough so that the number of severe cases of COVID-19 significantly drops.
"Our vaccine campaigns rarely reach the level that we actually have herd immunity to the flu," Mordecai points out. "And yet most years we're able to avoid major pandemics of the flu." A combination of immunity through vaccination and prior infection provides a high enough level of protection that the hospitals are never overwhelmed, she says. Even though the coronavirus is a far more serious disease, "that's the kind of thing that could happen with COVID-19."
In fact, none of the scientists interviewed says they believe the herd immunity threshold is the right goal for the public to worry about — they urge emphasizing vaccination instead. Sridhar points to the original political origins of the herd immunity discussion.
"Many high-income countries, because we have people who are very, very clever, have tried to use math to outsmart a problem that is basically common sense," Sridhar says. "More infections are bad, and the way to stop them is to get vaccinated. It's that simple."
Meyers says she believes computer models have been extremely helpful in this pandemic as a warning to policymakers, and to devise local policies for cities and states. But she agrees the elevation of the herd immunity threshold in particular hasn't been useful.
Instead, she says, the computer models all show a clear way forward: "Every vaccination gets us a step closer, every vaccination makes our community, our society a safer, place.

_From NPR USA , and I copied as link wouldn't work and removed advertising which was under every 2nd paragraph_.


----------



## odyssey06

Not to suggest that they should stop vaccinating...
But the US probably has so many people with prior immunity (detected & undetected covid cases) that together with the vaccinated they may have already be coralling the virus. I suspect also there's some % of the population with some natural or prior protection against covid, there were too many cases of families living in same house where only some of the adults were infected.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

odyssey06 said:


> Not to suggest that they should stop vaccinating...
> But the US probably has so many people with prior immunity (detected & undetected covid cases) that together with the vaccinated they may have already be coralling the virus. I suspect also there's some % of the population with some natural or prior protection against covid, there were too many cases of families living in same house where only some of the adults were infected.


I think we are a long way from understanding all those variables and nuances but they must be a factor in the way the virus didn't infect everyone in situations like you referred to or the majority of the population, ok hygiene and restrictions helped but I doubt its the only reason.

Another thing that crossed my mind is , would the vaccine manufacturers have striven for the high levels of immunity granted by all vaccines on the market?

One thing is for certain there's going to be a lot of scientific studies over the next 10, 20 years. The original virus showed up 20 years ago next year and we still don't really know much.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

An epidemiologist on the BBC just now said countries, especially the UK might have to change their respective vaccine rollouts in order to suppress and control the risks associated with the variants. He was suggesting that the age based rollout be abandoned, now that the elderly and vulnerable are vaccinated, and all eligible people in those areas be vaccinated in order to prevent transmission outside an area.

He was particularly referring to the high incidence rates of the Indian variant that is now the main cause of cases in Bolton and probably the Greater Manchester area.

It's an interesting point and might actually be another way of combating the threat the variants pose.


----------



## odyssey06

Paul O Mahoney said:


> An epidemiologist on the BBC just now said countries, especially the UK might have to change their respective vaccine rollouts in order to suppress and control the risks associated with the variants. He was suggesting that the age based rollout be abandoned, now that the elderly and vulnerable are vaccinated, and all eligible people in those areas be vaccinated in order to prevent transmission outside an area.
> 
> He was particularly referring to the high incidence rates of the Indian variant that is now the main cause of cases in Bolton and probably the Greater Manchester area.
> 
> It's an interesting point and might actually be another way of combating the threat the variants pose.


Interesting, but it also seems a bit like whack-a-mole unless they are going to lockdown that particularly region and not let anyone in or out.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

odyssey06 said:


> Interesting, but it also seems a bit like whack-a-mole unless they are going to lockdown that particularly region and not let anyone in or out.


Preventing movement would be an issue.

Her indoors said its a good idea but vaccines would probably be sat in warehouses or lead to deferral of vaccines elsewhere allowing other areas to be susceptible to outbreaks.


----------



## Franc1

I registered for the vaccine last week and got an appointment for the first shot for tomorrow evening. To my surprise the text says that the type of vaccine that I will get is the Astra Zeneca. Hasn't the EU stopped ordering the Astra Zeneca vaccines ? I thought that starting a few weeks ago all new vaccines offered would be Pfizer, Moderna, Johnson. I don't really mind what type of vaccine I'll get but was just surprised that I would get the AZ. They must be some leftovers of older orders but wonder if the second shot still has to be AZ or can be any other type, now that apparently the AZ vaccines will not be ordered any more ?

Franc


----------



## EasilyAmused

AFAIK the EU have stopped future orders of AZ, but from July onwards, something like that. AZ are still fulfilling outstanding orders.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Franc1 said:


> I registered for the vaccine last week and got an appointment for the first shot for tomorrow evening. To my surprise the text says that the type of vaccine that I will get is the Astra Zeneca. Hasn't the EU stopped ordering the Astra Zeneca vaccines ? I thought that starting a few weeks ago all new vaccines offered would be Pfizer, Moderna, Johnson. I don't really mind what type of vaccine I'll get but was just surprised that I would get the AZ. They must be some leftovers of older orders but wonder if the second shot still has to be AZ or can be any other type, now that apparently the AZ vaccines will not be ordered any more ?
> 
> Franc


They might not be ordered but AZ still has to fulfil the order placed last August is my understanding of the situation.
The EU ordered 400m(edit) and paid €340m for the order, even if they said they'd take €340m worth that would be 300m doses, and Astrazeneca are no where near delivering that quantity.

The contract runs until 31st December 2021


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Spanish study finds AstraZeneca vaccine followed by Pfizer dose is safe and effective
					

A Spanish study on mixing COVID-19 vaccines has found that giving a dose of Pfizer's (PFE.N) drug to people who already received a first shot of AstraZeneca (AZN.L) vaccine is highly safe and effective, preliminary results showed on Tuesday.




					www.reuters.com


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Third dose of Covid jab to be trialled in UK
					

The findings will help scientific advisers decide if re-vaccinating people in the autumn is necessary.



					www.bbc.com
				




Seems never ending now, but the UK are going to trial from June the effectiveness and need for the booster jab.
It'll be interesting to learn what the data will say and what decisions will be made .


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Covid: Pfizer and AstraZeneca jabs work against Indian variant - study
					

They are effective against symptomatic disease but protection is low after only one dose, a study says.



					www.bbc.com
				




This is good news , however it will mean yet another review of our and most other countries rollouts. 
The gap between doses especially in the AZ  vaccine needs examination and I would say it needs to be at min manufacturers original guidelines.  Pfizer/BioNTech the same 21 days min.

While I think 90% protection is probably too high, and 60plus % after first dose is acceptable I think 30 odd% from first doses is probably too low to continue to control the virus. 

Again its great news, but a headache in some respects.


----------



## EasilyAmused

Some 49-year-olds turned away from J&J vaccine appointments after ‘error’
via The Irish Times








						Some 49-year-olds turned away from J&J vaccine appointments after ‘error’
					

Niac has cleared the way in principle for use of one-shot jab in under 50s




					www.irishtimes.com
				




This really is unbelievable. These people wanted the J&J, it was available at the vaccination centre, but they were sent home without being vaccinated.


----------



## joe sod

I see Johnson vaccine now delayed deliveries and falling significantly short on promised deliveries. The question why is there no court cases threatened and a big media campaign targeted at Johnson like there was for the AZ vaccine earlier. Looks like Johnson are facing the exact same production difficulties as AZ a few months ago.


----------



## odyssey06

joe sod said:


> I see Johnson vaccine now delayed deliveries and falling significantly short on promised deliveries. The question why is there no court cases threatened and a big media campaign targeted at Johnson like there was for the AZ vaccine earlier. Looks like Johnson are facing the exact same production difficulties as AZ a few months ago.


Everybody except Pfizer has had production difficulties. Then we consider some of the biggest players in vaccines like Sanofi failed to produce a vaccine.
I think the issue specifically with AZ was perception of where the vaccines were going, but that's one for the lawyers and the merits of signing a contract under UK law (which favours purchasers) v Belgian law.

The delay with Johnson might have some silver lining... German researchers think they have identified reason for clotting in the adenovirus based vaccines. A tweak to the vaccine may address it. So it would be better to get more of the fixed ones but not sure how fast that could be done. 
The hope all along was the one dose easily rolled out Johnson vaccine could be used in pharmacies etc for the 20 and 30 somethings.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

joe sod said:


> I see Johnson vaccine now delayed deliveries and falling significantly short on promised deliveries. The question why is there no court cases threatened and a big media campaign targeted at Johnson like there was for the AZ vaccine earlier. Looks like Johnson are facing the exact same production difficulties as AZ a few months ago.


Well the issues that J&J have are effecting it's global supply,  they are having issues in the States too.
AZ didn't have manufacturing issues like this, as we now know AZ were supplying the UK locally,  and other countries from EU factories, while not attempting to fulfil its EU contract, which we will find out who was right after the court case.

The J&J issues were flagged 3 weeks ago by J&J and around the same time Pfizer/BioNTech increased substantially their supplies, the bad news was forgotten

I really don't know how they can say they were expecting 200,000 by the end of June when we have received 12000 a week over the last 5 weeks. 


As of the 25th of May received 60200 and last week used 39k with 1k in the weeks before.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

odyssey06 said:


> Everybody except Pfizer has had production difficulties. Then we consider some of the biggest players in vaccines like Sanofi failed to produce a vaccine.
> I think the issue specifically with AZ was perception of where the vaccines were going, but that's one for the lawyers and the merits of signing a contract under UK law (which favours purchasers) v Belgian law.
> 
> The delay with Johnson might have some silver lining... German researchers think they have identified reason for clotting in the adenovirus based vaccines. A tweak to the vaccine may address it. So it would be better to get more of the fixed ones but not sure how fast that could be done.
> The hope all along was the one dose easily rolled out Johnson vaccine could be used in pharmacies etc for the 20 and 30 somethings.


Looks like Sanofi will be good to go in October/November phase 3 starting next month


----------



## Prosper

joe sod said:


> The question why is there no court cases threatened and a big media campaign targeted at Johnson like there was for the AZ vaccine earlier


Maybe because the J&J vaccine, due to it being one shot and not needing very low temperature storage, is being diverted to developing countries due to the fear that a super strain of Covid will emerge from where the virus is spreading out of control.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Prosper said:


> Maybe because the J&J vaccine, due to it being one shot and not needing very low temperature storage, is being diverted to developing countries due to the fear that a super strain of Covid will emerge from where the virus is spreading out of control.


They aren't that altruistic,  it's well documented that production isn't going well, and when it was one of their fill finish partners mixed up their vaccine with AZ and 15 million doses were trashed. 
There is a major shortage of materials too, that's why Pfizer are trying to bring as much as possible "in house" .

There's probably to many vaccines being produced or in late development now and ingredients are limited.


----------



## Sunny

joe sod said:


> I see Johnson vaccine now delayed deliveries and falling significantly short on promised deliveries. The question why is there no court cases threatened and a big media campaign targeted at Johnson like there was for the AZ vaccine earlier. Looks like Johnson are facing the exact same production difficulties as AZ a few months ago.



The main supplies of J&J were never due before June. Even in the US, they are not expecting significant numbers until next month. You will probably hear more noise if it starts getting to 2-3 months later or even 6 months later and they still haven't delivered like you saw with AZ. 

My wife is just back from New York. You couldn't walk down a street without the option of getting a vaccine being thrown at you. Nearly 50% of the population fully vaccinated and the only thing slowing them down is vaccine hesitancy. They are offering lotteries, scholarship prizes, free booze to encourage people to come forward. There are walk in vaccine centres all over the place. 

When you see the problems facing the rest of the world with vaccines even in rich countries like Europe and Japan never mind the poorer countries, it really show the inequality in the production and distribution of vaccines. The US have exported a fraction of the amount of vaccines that the EU have. They are sitting on vast amounts of vaccines that they are struggling to even use.


----------



## odyssey06

A reminder that the HSE vaccination portal is now open for people to register from age 40 upwards.
To reduce load on the system, 44 year olds are invited to register today, then 43 year olds tomorrow etc


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Astrazeneca dose gap can be cut from 12 to 8 weeks, says Niac
					

The change in vaccination administration times was included in a letter from chief medical officer (CMO) Dr Tony Holohan to Minister for Health Stephen Donnelly.




					www.irishexaminer.com
				




OK well this is good news and not such good news. Obviously rollout of second doses sooner is a priority but supply and existing plans will be two issues that will need attention by the HSE.

However,  we know that vaccines can be mixed , AZ first dose, Pfizer 2nd and are extremely efficient against the new variants. Add in the fact that we are to receive even more Pfizer vaccines,  this week apparently,  it might be time for a gap analysis to be carried out and perhaps identify those who need the second dose for those over 70, 60 and 50 and " close those age groups out".

(We receive about 182k Pfizer per week now and this might move to 220 to 250k , I haven't seen any indication of  new qty in the public domain yet)

We should continue with vaccinations for any vulnerable people but perhaps re-look at the sub 45 rollout and maybe defer for a few weeks or slow down its quantity but keep registration open, but give an explanation of longer lead time and gather data for a more effective roll out for the sub 40s which is about 2m population.

My view is that once over 50s are fully vaccinated the new variants might just be less of a concern and we might just avoid another lockdown.?

Edit: no  accurate data for last week on ecdc database. Not even amounts received.


----------



## SlugBreath

I am aged 69. I am beginning to think that I am being used as a guinea pig to satisfy NPHET'S agenda.

Firstly, I had to take the AZ vaccine, no choice. Now I am told that I may get my second jab within 8 weeks of first jab. Why?  Is it because NPHET now regret giving our age group the AZ vaccine that apparently only has a 30% efficacy against the Indian variant.  Does AZ recommend 8 weeks between jabs? Have they done trials on this?

It is also being discussed that we may be offered the Pfizer vaccine in place of the AZ vaccine for our second jab. Again....have there been any trials done on this? Is it because two AZ vaccines apparently only have an efficacy of about 60% against the Indian variant. Did I hear Luke O'Neill say on the Pat Kenny show this morning that we may have more severe side effects if we mix AZ with Pfizer?

The rules seem to change according to vaccine supple rather than anything else.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

SlugBreath said:


> I am aged 69. I am beginning to think that I am being used as a guinea pig to satisfy NPHET'S agenda.
> 
> Firstly, I had to take the AZ vaccine, no choice. Now I am told that I may get my second jab within 8 weeks of first jab. Why?  Is it because NPHET now regret giving our age group the AZ vaccine that apparently only has a 30% efficacy against the Indian variant.  Does AZ recommend 8 weeks between jabs? Have they done trials on this?
> 
> It is also being discussed that we may be offered the Pfizer vaccine in place of the AZ vaccine for our second jab. Again....have there been any trials done on this? Is it because two AZ vaccines apparently only have an efficacy of about 60% against the Indian variant. Did I hear Luke O'Neill say on the Pat Kenny show this morning that we may have more severe side effects if we mix AZ with Pfizer?
> 
> The rules seem to change according to vaccine supple rather than anything else.


If you read up this thread most of your questions are answered.

There is no fundamental changes in anything and it's certainly isn't a conspiracy of any kind. More data has been gleaned from the almost 2bn vaccines administered worldwide.

Any changes like 12 to 8 weeks, or Pfizer as a second dose do have science behind the decisions but I'm unsure if they are officially approved.


----------



## odyssey06

The Journal on UK hospitalisations for Delta variant

Of the 479 people who attended A&E in England between 1 February and 31 May and who were confirmed as having the Indian variant, 309 were unvaccinated while 18 had received both doses.
And of the 137 cases where attendance at A&E resulted in an overnight inpatient admission, 90 were unvaccinated while seven had received both doses.









						Delta variant ‘dominant in UK’ as confirmed cases rise 79%
					

12,431 cases of the variant have been confirmed up to yesterday in the UK.




					www.thejournal.ie


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

odyssey06 said:


> The Journal on UK hospitalisations for Delta variant
> 
> Of the 479 people who attended A&E in England between 1 February and 31 May and who were confirmed as having the Indian variant, 309 were unvaccinated while 18 had received both doses.
> And of the 137 cases where attendance at A&E resulted in an overnight inpatient admission, 90 were unvaccinated while seven had received both doses.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Delta variant ‘dominant in UK’ as confirmed cases rise 79%
> 
> 
> 12,431 cases of the variant have been confirmed up to yesterday in the UK.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thejournal.ie


Hancock was pleading with people who were eligible for vaccines and did not take up the offer to do so for weeks and they even set up a bus as a vaccine centre in Bolton. 

The other point is that it would appear the vaccines are protecting people but it also shows that even being vaccinated doesn't provide full protection and the usual good hygiene practices must be followed.

So like the Kent variant it was in the UK a long time before it was officially acknowledged or am I reading that  incorrectly?

If the above is correct then would it be safe to assume that what we witnessed in India with huge daily infections was prevented due to the UKs vaccine rollout?


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

COVID-19: Pfizer jab recipients have lower antibodies targeting Indian variant, study suggests
					

Levels of these antibodies are lower with increasing age and decline over time, the analysis of 250 blood samples suggest.




					news.sky.com
				




Sky news are reporting that the level of antibodies generated by Pfizers vaccine doesn't appear to be as high or effective against the Delta variant as it is against the other variants and the antibodies decrease over time. The article explains the impact of this.

The case for a booster is gaining traction.


----------



## odyssey06

Paul O Mahoney said:


> So like the Kent variant it was in the UK a long time before it was officially acknowledged or am I reading that  incorrectly?
> 
> If the above is correct then would it be safe to assume that what we witnessed in India with huge daily infections was prevented due to the UKs vaccine rollout?


I didn't pick up on that from first reading but now that you mention it that would suggest it was in circulation earlier than thought... 
I wonder what our comparable stats for variants are.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

odyssey06 said:


> I didn't pick up on that from first reading but now that you mention it that would suggest it was in circulation earlier than thought...
> I wonder what our comparable stats for variants are.


Who knows there is no data of any meaning being released even to the ECDC.

I was reading in March about unknown variants one was dubiously called the "Yorkshire variant" and it was reported that Bolton, Blackburn were witnessing unusually high cases which were " under investigation " and of course it was attributed to the non white population and their fear of testing and taking the vaccines.

The UK government aren't happy if their plans are being scuppered and can be economical with the truth.


----------



## Laramie

Both myself and my wife got our first AZ jab. I got mine first and two days later my wife got hers. We both had to queue for a couple of hours each time.

If they bring forward the second jab of AZ from 16 weeks to 12 weeks, we will be due to receive that later this month. Does anyone know if it is possible for a husband and wife to have their jabs together rather than days apart?


----------



## odyssey06

Laramie said:


> Both myself and my wife got our first AZ jab. I got mine first and two days later my wife got hers. We both had to queue for a couple of hours each time.
> 
> If they bring forward the second jab of AZ from 16 weeks to 12 weeks, we will be due to receive that later this month. Does anyone know if it is possible for a husband and wife to have their jabs together rather than days apart?


I've heard informally of people turning up together when the first person gets the appointment.
If you are registered in the system (which you would be) and bring ID they may accomodate you at the clinic.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Covid vaccines: Three million doses have been administered in Ireland
					

Around 25% of the adult population are fully vaccinated.




					www.thejournal.ie
				




Despite the hiccups and other extraneous events this is some achievement.

I think in late January I would have taken the elderly,  HC workers, and the vulnerable to be covered by May.  My hope that we might get a summer out of 2021 might still hold true, once we continue to practice good personal hygiene and be aware that the virus is still around.

Its been a long winter,  weather included, but like my poly tunnel it's time to enjoy the fruits of our collective labours.

And while no one alone has achieved this people should be really proud and perhaps realise that when the chips are really down we achieved a lot together by pulling together. 

Maybe there is a lesson there?


----------



## Firefly

Got my first vaccine in the last week. I found the whole process very straight forward. No queue outside and about a 10 minute queue inside. The person administering the jab was very friendly and I was back in my car in no time. Hats off to whoever is running this!


----------



## odyssey06

Firefly said:


> Got my first vaccine in the last week. I found the whole process very straight forward. No queue outside and about a 10 minute queue inside. The person administering the jab was very friendly and I was back in my car in no time. Hats off to whoever is running this!


I hope mine goes as smoothly... just got an appointment for next week in Croke Park.
I have visions of it happening on the pitch with commentary by Mícheál Ó Muircheartaigh... probably won't be like that in reality!


----------



## peemac

Firefly said:


> Got my first vaccine in the last week. I found the whole process very straight forward. No queue outside and about a 10 minute queue inside. The person administering the jab was very friendly and I was back in my car in no time. Hats off to whoever is running this!


The HSE!

With a blank page they are well able to be efficient.

With unions and 60's work practices and crumbling infrastructure due to far too many facilities, it will always be playing catch up on everything else.


----------



## joer

And Odyssey, a guard of honour with the Artane boys band playing congratulations ...


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Got mine in Pfizer last week 45mins in total. I'll admit I was anxious with my health history but only a sore arm for a day.


----------



## odyssey06

HSE hopes for Cohort 7 solution within ten days as high risk patients still waiting for vaccines









						HSE hopes for Cohort 7 solution within ten days as high risk patients still waiting for vaccines
					

The development of a referral pathway for people within this cohort was derailed by the ransomware attack.




					www.thejournal.ie


----------



## odyssey06

Not quite sure what to make of this one but Meaghers Pharmacy say they will be running vaccinations of over 50s with single dose Jansen vaccine. Maybe one for those planning hols...









						COVID-19 Vaccination Service
					

October 2022 Update We are currently offering COVID Vaccines in our Baggot Street and Barrow Street Stores only.  New adapted Covid 19 vaccines are now being offered in Meagehers as booster doses. They are expected to give better protection from COVID 19 to include the Omicron Variants. We are...




					www.meagherspharmacy.ie


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

odyssey06 said:


> Not quite sure what to make of this one but Meaghers Pharmacy say they will be running vaccinations of over 50s with single dose Jansen vaccine. Maybe one for those planning hols...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 Vaccination Service
> 
> 
> October 2022 Update We are currently offering COVID Vaccines in our Baggot Street and Barrow Street Stores only.  New adapted Covid 19 vaccines are now being offered in Meagehers as booster doses. They are expected to give better protection from COVID 19 to include the Omicron Variants. We are...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.meagherspharmacy.ie


Where are they getting supplies? The Government are saying we'll get 60k which we have , and there is little else apparently arriving.
We were meant to get 475k by the end of June.

Again,  I'm only going by ECDC figures which are now 4 weeks old.....


----------



## odyssey06

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Hit wrong button again,  how does one get rid of a miss post?


You can't - you just edit it to something like "ignore mis-post"


----------



## odyssey06

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Where are they getting supplies? The Government are saying we'll get 60k which we have , and there is little else apparently arriving.
> We were meant to get 475k by the end of June.
> 
> Again,  I'm only going by ECDC figures which are now 4 weeks old.....


Yes, maybe they were lined up in case we got the doses but with those figures it doesn't look good.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

EU foregoes 100 million Janssen vaccines, considers donating other doses - sources | BreakingNews.ie
					

The one-dose shot has been largely relegated to a back-up choice in Europe after safety and supply problems




					www.breakingnews.ie
				




Not mentioned in this article is the 60m doses that the US government has asked to be destroyed. 
I think it's safe to assume that we won't be using very much J&J vaccines now or in the future.


----------



## Odea

I got the call for my second AZ vaccine today to be given to me next Saturday. Eight weeks after my first. Unfortunately of all days for this appointment to be made I cannot be there......thankfully on this occasion I can respond to their email and request the appointment to be rescheduled.


----------



## kinnjohn

I see from today 1300 Community  Pharmacists will start  Administering  the single-shot Johnson&johnson to people over 50 who have not received any Vaccine,
Will people between 60 and 69  who did not want to receive the 2 shot AstraZeneca Vaccine be included,
Do people have to go through the HSE to get an appointment with the Community Pharmacist first,


----------



## odyssey06

kinnjohn said:


> I see from today 1300 Community  Pharmacists will start  Administering  the single-shot Johnson&johnson to people over 50 who have not received any Vaccine,
> Will people between 60 and 69  who did not want to receive the 2 shot AstraZeneca Vaccine be included,
> Do people have to go through the HSE to get an appointment with the Community Pharmacist first,


You go directly to the pharmacy according to this... it just says over 50s rather than 50-60








						Pharmacists to begin administering Covid-19 vaccines from today
					

The system will open for people over the age of 50 today.




					www.thejournal.ie


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

kinnjohn said:


> I see from today 1300 Community  Pharmacists will start  Administering  the single-shot Johnson&johnson to people over 50 who have not received any Vaccine,
> Will people between 60 and 69  who did not want to receive the 2 shot AstraZeneca Vaccine be included,
> Do people have to go through the HSE to get an appointment with the Community Pharmacist first,


Why would it include those who refused a second shot?
There is no scientific evidence that these two vaccines can be mixed.

This is for those who couldn't get to main vaccination centres.


----------



## IsleOfMan

I have had to cancel my second AZ shot at the Aviva. I texted "new" when I got the invite.  Does anyone know how long it will take to get a new date or should I just phone them?

I have been doing nothing for the past number of months and then two things happen at the same time!


----------



## kinnjohn

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Why would it include those who refused a second shot?
> There is no scientific evidence that these two vaccines can be mixed.
> 
> This is for those who couldn't get to main vaccination centres.


Wires crossed paul possibly badly stated by me,
I was referring to people between 60 and 69 who did not take any of the AZ Vaccine which was the only one offered to this age group unless there was an underline reason they should not receive it,

Leo said they would have to go to the back of the Que if they did not take the two-shot AZ on offer,

It now looks like the people  between 60 and 69 who opted not to take AZ will now be fully vaccinated before most who took the AZ Vaccine,

Just for the record the article I read stated clearly states pharmacies will not offer the Vaccination to anyone who has been already being part vaccinated, The article said it included anyone over 50 not vaccinated including those who could not get to the main vaccination centers ,

 you said this is for those who couldn't get to the main  vaccination centers, the question I was asking was  those 60 and 69 who did not want the
AZ vaccine can now get the Johnston &johnston in the Pharmacy in this correct,


----------



## odyssey06

Boots are also now taking appointments from over 50s for single shot Janssen




__





						COVID-19 vaccination | Inspiration & advice | Boots
					

Ever since COVID-19 disrupted our lives, there's been talk of a vaccine. Now there's one available, find out the key facts here.




					www.boots.ie


----------



## IsleOfMan

I remember reading that it takes about 4 weeks for the first jab of the AZ vaccine to take effect fully.  Does it take the same length of time for the second jab to take effect or is it much quicker?


----------



## odyssey06

IsleOfMan said:


> I remember reading that it takes about 4 weeks for the first jab of the AZ vaccine to take effect fully.  Does it take the same length of time for the second jab to take effect or is it much quicker?


The studies tracked efficacy 2 weeks after 2nd dose so that seems to be the interval.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Exponential case rise in England among unvaccinated
					

Covid-19 cases are "rising exponentially" across England driven by younger and mostly unvaccinated age groups, according to scientists tracking the epidemic.




					www.rte.ie
				




If nothing else this story seems to suggest that the link between cases and hospitalisation has been weakened for those fully vaccinated. Of course more data and analysis will follow to be absolutely sure, but this is good news.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

odyssey06 said:


> The studies tracked efficacy 2 weeks after 2nd dose so that seems to be the interval.


In general but individuals can vary depending on unique health situations. 

I thought efficacy was detected after 2 weeks of the first too, not as high as both doses but 50 to 60% for the Kent variant especially.


----------



## odyssey06

First Pfizer jab done this morning at Croke Park MVC - am in early 40s.
No running commentary or national anthem from the Artane Boys Band alas 

I was jabbed by a paramedic who joked "Don't worry, I can do this going around a corner at 60mph."

If you are going to Croke Park, entrance is on Jones Road (junction with Russell Avenue).
Car parking is free, to the rear of the Croke Park Hotel.

It's a bit cramped inside the MVC, they have a sheltered outside waiting area I thought they should have let the queue build up there and only let people into the MVC as booths are ready.
To expedite things when you get in, write or print out your name, address, DOB, PPS number, mobile number on a piece of paper. It's a bit noisy inside the MVC and the sign-in person is behind screens and a mask so avoids you having to shout all your details in public.

Note that there is a walk-in test centre off the Clonliffe Road, so don't end up there by mistake - there are signs along the road for both destinations. If you are wondering why there are so many Gardai in the area it's because the Courts Service also has a temporary home at Croke Park.


----------



## odyssey06

Stephen Donnelly has tweeted that the vaccine portal will open this weekend for 35-39 age bracket.
39 year olds being asked to register from Sunday.


----------



## Prosper

kinnjohn said:


> It now looks like the people between 60 and 69 who opted not to take AZ will now be fully vaccinated before most who took the AZ Vaccine,


Seems so. I met one acquaintance who declined the AZ and shortly after was offered the Pfizer. She's now fully vaccinated and I'm still waiting on my second AZ jab. Also, the wife of a friend of mine was offered the J&J but refused it when she got the text message calling her for the jab and was then given the Pfizer.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Looks Like the HSE has provided the ECDC with data that is now showing on the latest report. The data is up to last Sunday the 13th of June.

I would'nt say that the data is 100% accurate but it does give credence to the figures that the Government/HSE has mentioned over the last few weeks when we had to take their word for the figures.

On the supply side I was happily surprised to see that deliveries from all suppliers were robust and with the exception of Moderna, which missed one week, we recieved doses every week. Pfizer/ Biontech over the last 2 weeks delivered 530,000 and they have provided 2,604,420 in ytd. AZ have provided 821,000 Moderna 348,000 and J&J 145,200. The Total Recieved since January is 3,918,720 

We have now administered 3,146,533 vaccines in total ( Ist 2,145,671 & 2nd 929,685, J&J 71,777) when the daily data was stopped due to the hack on the 11th of May the figures were 1,922,913 in total (Ist 1,407,555 and 2nd 514,808, J&J 550). The ECDC data counts J&J as 2 doses so I have adjusted the 2 dose figures.

I think its not unreasonable to say this is pretty impressive and despite the issues in 6months its been done well. 

If the roll-out keeps this pace at over 300,000 a week we might have everyone who can/wants a vaccine to at least have one dose by September.


----------



## michaelm

Prosper said:


> . . one acquaintance who declined the AZ and shortly after was offered the Pfizer . . Also, the wife of a friend of mine was offered the J&J but refused it when she got the text message calling her for the jab and was then given the Pfizer.


My intention was to decline an AZ or J&J offer, suspecting that the Pfizer would be offered instead.  But I was offered the Pfizer in the first instance.  Looks like it may have worked out for me in any event.


----------



## odyssey06

Both sides claiming victory in the EU-AZ court case, but while the EU technically won, the measures imposed on AZ don't seem to worry them unduly.

_The court, while finding in favour of the European Commission’s demand for interim measures, ordered only that the company deliver 50 million more doses by the end of September. If the firm fails to do so it would pay a fine of €10 per dose not delivered.

All other measures sought by the European Commission have been dismissed, and in particular the Court found that the European Commission has no exclusivity or right of priority over all other contracting parties_









						AstraZeneca and European Commission both claim victory in vaccine court case
					

AstraZeneca has been ordered to deliver 50 million more doses by the end of September.




					www.thejournal.ie


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

odyssey06 said:


> Both sides claiming victory in the EU-AZ court case, but while the EU technically won, the measures imposed on AZ don't seem to worry them unduly.
> 
> _The court, while finding in favour of the European Commission’s demand for interim measures, ordered only that the company deliver 50 million more doses by the end of September. If the firm fails to do so it would pay a fine of €10 per dose not delivered.
> 
> All other measures sought by the European Commission have been dismissed, and in particular the Court found that the European Commission has no exclusivity or right of priority over all other contracting parties_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AstraZeneca and European Commission both claim victory in vaccine court case
> 
> 
> AstraZeneca has been ordered to deliver 50 million more doses by the end of September.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thejournal.ie


So that's that finally put to bed.


----------



## odyssey06

Paul O Mahoney said:


> So that's that finally put to bed.


Well actually I'm now reading that the court did find that AZ breached the contract by not using UK sites to meet 'best efforts' to deliver the vaccines, so there may be a round 2 on that score.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

odyssey06 said:


> Well actually I'm now reading that the court did find that AZ breached the contract by not using UK sites to meet 'best efforts' to deliver the vaccines, so there may be a round 2 on that score.


I think AZ will just fulfil what the court asked,pay any money for shortfall,  and wave each other goodbye.

The EU has enough Pfizer for years as its mostly going to be the booster we will be getting and nearly all ingredients will be manufactured in the EU in various sites. Add in the other vaccines, and theres not need a for AZ


----------



## IsleOfMan

I see that we are averaging about 300 Covid cases per day in Ireland.  Do we know what average age of the people testing positive is?


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

IsleOfMan said:


> I see that we are averaging about 300 Covid cases per day in Ireland.  Do we know what average age of the people testing positive is?


Good question, the data isn't being released. 
But, I'd imagine its younger people , my son works part-time in a pub and a fellow worker tested positive, early 60s, and had one dose of AZ .
Our son went to Citiwest on Saturday for a test it came back negative, yesterday, but he said the queue was busy with all age groups being tested.


----------



## Sophrosyne

IsleOfMan said:


> I see that we are averaging about 300 Covid cases per day in Ireland. Do we know what average age of the people testing positive is?



According to this from _RTÉ _News, it is 19 to 24-year-olds.

"We see incidence falling in adults aged 40-65 as vaccines take effect: one by one, from the oldest age group (60-64) down, incidence falls, precisely at the point we would expect, given the dates when each group was vaccinated and the time to effectiveness of the vaccines.

Interestingly, incidence has also fallen significantly in children of school-going age (primary and secondary) over the last three weeks.

Incidence in those aged 19-24 years remains high (twice that in 16-18 or 25-29-year-olds)."


----------



## IsleOfMan

I was due to get my second AZ jab last Saturday.  Couldn't attend so texted back "new".  I was expecting to have to wait up to 3 weeks to be called again.  Got our new date yesterday for our jab today.  In and out at the Aviva in about an hour.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

IsleOfMan said:


> I was due to get my second AZ jab last Saturday.  Couldn't attend so texted back "new".  I was expecting to have to wait up to 3 weeks to be called again.  Got our new date yesterday for our jab today.  In and out at the Aviva in about an hour.


Excellent,  they really want the second dose to be administered and for good reason.


----------



## Sophrosyne

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Excellent, they really want the second dose to be administered and for good reason.



Yes. It is concerns over the rise of the Delta variant in Ireland and of the possibility of yet unknown variants.

Following the news that 284 new cases of Covid were reported to the HSE in the last 24 hours, Dr Holohan said he is “concerned” by the growth of the Delta variant here.

“Today’s data show a concerning increase in transmission of the Delta variant in Ireland. We estimate that Delta accounts for up to 20% of cases reported in the last week. We have also seen a number of outbreaks associated with this variant reported in the last week.”

Sam McConkey, professor of infectious diseases at the Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland, said while the new variant was largely affecting younger, unvaccinated cohorts, it still carried significant risks.

“It is not a trivial thing and it is not the case that there is no mortality associated with it,” he said.

“My view is that it would not be good public health policy to let it spread rampant in the population, and it adds a huge urgency to getting people vaccinated.”

It also might make the case for a more intensive testing regime, he said.

“It is more infectious so maybe we should be testing casual contacts, i.e., contacts of contacts.”

Travel was not something which should be encouraged he said, not necessarily due to the Delta variant, but the risk of as yet unknown mutations of the disease.

“Even before this became an issue, I would have said international travel is not something we should be doing, I’m largely with Tony Holohan on this. What I would be worried about is the evolution of another variant which could spread widely among people who are vaccinated. That would be a terrifying prospect.”


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Sophrosyne said:


> Yes. It is concerns over the rise of the Delta variant in Ireland and of the possibility of yet unknown variants.
> 
> Following the news that 284 new cases of Covid were reported to the HSE in the last 24 hours, Dr Holohan said he is “concerned” by the growth of the Delta variant here.
> 
> “Today’s data show a concerning increase in transmission of the Delta variant in Ireland. We estimate that Delta accounts for up to 20% of cases reported in the last week. We have also seen a number of outbreaks associated with this variant reported in the last week.”
> 
> Sam McConkey, professor of infectious diseases at the Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland, said while the new variant was largely affecting younger, unvaccinated cohorts, it still carried significant risks.
> 
> “It is not a trivial thing and it is not the case that there is no mortality associated with it,” he said.
> 
> “My view is that it would not be good public health policy to let it spread rampant in the population, and it adds a huge urgency to getting people vaccinated.”
> 
> It also might make the case for a more intensive testing regime, he said.
> 
> “It is more infectious so maybe we should be testing casual contacts, i.e., contacts of contacts.”
> 
> Travel was not something which should be encouraged he said, not necessarily due to the Delta variant, but the risk of as yet unknown mutations of the disease.
> 
> “Even before this became an issue, I would have said international travel is not something we should be doing, I’m largely with Tony Holohan on this. What I would be worried about is the evolution of another variant which could spread widely among people who are vaccinated. That would be a terrifying prospect.”


The key here is if the link between cases and hospitalisation is weakened by vaccination,  that data is now the data that is needed.If its shown that it is then itll be a major step forward, if not then we might be in a bit of bother.

Many will argue that if this becomes a " young person " issue that'll be fine as " they'll get over it" and the evidence supports that but that's only half the story,  living with an active virus in the community only leads to more avenues for the virus to mutate and it could avoid the vaccines ability to protect a population.

I just hope that by late Autumn we aren't back at square one, but that depends on so many factors with full vaccination of as much of the population as possible over the next few months the priority , with detailed analysis of the effects of the vaccination programs not on a country by country basis but on a global scale.

Since the start of this the world has been firefighting the virus, the vaccines were produced by global collaboration and it was proven that when faced by a global issue humanity has the tools and inclination to come together a fight the problem. 
Now the world needs to put in place strategic plans to finish this fight but also put in place plans not only to prevent another pandemic but to react quickly to future events like this and that includes poorer countries , because you cant expect events like this will stop if it's only the western world is vaccinated.


----------



## Purple

Paul O Mahoney said:


> The key here is if the link between cases and hospitalisation is weakened by vaccination,  that data is now the data that is needed.If its shown that it is then itll be a major step forward, if not then we might be in a bit of bother.
> 
> Many will argue that if this becomes a " young person " issue that'll be fine as " they'll get over it" and the evidence supports that but that's only half the story,  living with an active virus in the community only leads to more avenues for the virus to mutate and it could avoid the vaccines ability to protect a population.
> 
> I just hope that by late Autumn we aren't back at square one, but that depends on so many factors with full vaccination of as much of the population as possible over the next few months the priority , with detailed analysis of the effects of the vaccination programs not on a country by country basis but on a global scale.


I agree with all that but this bit;


Paul O Mahoney said:


> Since the start of this the world has been firefighting the virus, the vaccines were produced by global collaboration and it was proven that when faced by a global issue humanity has the tools and inclination to come together a fight the problem.
> Now the world needs to put in place strategic plans to finish this fight but also put in place plans not only to prevent another pandemic but to react quickly to future events like this and that includes poorer countries , because you cant expect events like this will stop if it's only the western world is vaccinated.


The rich world and largely white humanity has worked together. If there was really a global plan I'd still be waiting for my first dose and the old and vulnerable around the world would be getting their vaccines first. 
Instead we've looked after our own first, vulnerable and not vulnerable alike, and now we are facing waves of mutations. If we do get a strain that the vaccines can't cope with it'll serve us right for our morally reprehensible behaviour.  "As you sow, so shall you reap", as it says in the Bible or Shakespeare or some other work of fiction.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Purple said:


> I agree with all that but this bit;
> 
> The rich world and largely white humanity has worked together. If there was really a global plan I'd still be waiting for my first dose and the old and vulnerable around the world would be getting their vaccines first.
> Instead we've looked after our own first, vulnerable and not vulnerable alike, and now we are facing waves of mutations. If we do get a strain that the vaccines can't cope with it'll serve us right for our morally reprehensible behaviour.  "As you sow, so shall you reap", as it says in the Bible or Shakespeare or some other work of fiction.


Perhaps the proposal by the WHO to produce vaccines and other medicines in SA might be the start of something  different.


----------



## Persius

Purple said:


> I agree with all that but this bit;
> 
> The rich world and largely white humanity has worked together. If there was really a global plan I'd still be waiting for my first dose and the old and vulnerable around the world would be getting their vaccines first.
> Instead we've looked after our own first, vulnerable and not vulnerable alike, and now we are facing waves of mutations. If we do get a strain that the vaccines can't cope with it'll serve us right for our morally reprehensible behaviour.  "As you sow, so shall you reap", as it says in the Bible or Shakespeare or some other work of fiction.


You can argue the morality of the approach, but it's unlikely to make any difference to the spread of variants.

About 21% of the global population has received at least 1 dose of a vaccine. So if we vaccinated all the most vulnerable people worldwide first, it may reduce the global number of deaths. But there'd still be 79% of the global population un-vaccinated. So really, the same amount of opportunity for variants to develop and spread.


----------



## Purple

Persius said:


> You can argue the morality of the approach, but it's unlikely to make any difference to the spread of variants.
> 
> About 21% of the global population has received at least 1 dose of a vaccine. So if we vaccinated all the most vulnerable people worldwide first, it may reduce the global number of deaths. But there'd still be 79% of the global population un-vaccinated. So really, the same amount of opportunity for variants to develop and spread.


I'm certainly no scientist but I would not be surprised if there is a link between the total viral load in the community and the likelihood of mutation. Given that those who get very sick generally have a higher viral load vaccinating the vulnerable should reduce that total. I also assume there is a link between viral load and transmissibility. I could of course be completely wrong.


----------



## michaelm

Purple said:


> I could of course be completely wrong.


I will not countenance it .  In any event, there must be a moral question mark over the idea to roll out an emergency vaccine to children for a disease that, statistically, poses little risk to them, while poorer nations are crying out for vaccines.


----------



## odyssey06

michaelm said:


> I will not countenance it .  In any event, there must be a moral question mark over the idea to roll out an emergency vaccine to children for a disease that, statistically, poses little risk to them, while poorer nations are crying out for vaccines.


Yes, except in limited circumstances i.e. the children are medically vulnerable or are living with people who are high risk.


----------



## michaelm

odyssey06 said:


> Yes, except in limited circumstances i.e. the children are medically vulnerable or are living with people who are high risk.


Medically vulnerable, for sure, where appropriate.  I'm dubious of the 'living with people who are high risk' reasoning, maybe if the high risk people can't be vaccinated . . but still.


----------



## Purple

michaelm said:


> I will not countenance it .  In any event, there must be a moral question mark over the idea to roll out an emergency vaccine to children for a disease that, statistically, poses little risk to them, while poorer nations are crying out for vaccines.


Yes, up there on the dubious charts ahead of not calling the Rwandan Genocide a genocide.
I can't remember anything in my lifetime where the rich in the world so callously abdicated their moral responsibility. I find it utterly sickening.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Per the ECDC data 343000 vaccines were given last week, up to 20th June.

Biggest change is that 2nd doses now represent 75% of vaccines administered at 259,000.

Deliveries are good but AZ seem to be delivering in bulk once a month and with 92000 2nd doses administered last week alone (140 first doses) .


----------



## joer

The second dose of AZ is from anything from eight to twelve weeks. I will be eight weeks on tomorrow Sat. When I rang to find out when I  would get my second jab I was told that I was in a queue.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

joer said:


> The second dose of AZ is from anything from eight to twelve weeks. I will be eight weeks on tomorrow Sat. When I rang to find out when I  would get my second jab I was told that I was in a queue.


Might be due to supply as I said above the deliveries from AZ aren't constant for example 142k were received 2 weeks ago nothing last week and with 90,000 plus administered last week.


----------



## Prosper

Just got text calling me for my second AZ jab at Aviva. Eight and half weeks after the first.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Got my 2nd Pfizer today too, ok it was at the Grange Castle plant 20mins and that included the 15 min wait afterward. Then 40mins to get to Maynooth.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Luke O'Neill: CureVac left 'scratching their heads' after disappointing COVID vaccine trial results
					

Professor Luke O'Neill says German company CureVac has been left "scratching their heads" after d...




					www.newstalk.com
				




How did we miss this announcement by Curevac? Its CEO has said that 13 variants weighed on its efficacy which was only 47% out of 40000 trial population. AZ and Pfizer/Biotech are about 90% after 2 doses

I also read elsewhere, will find and post, that Novavax might not be as effective against any variant with the exception of the Kent variant.

Edit Correction it now appears to be fine against all variants at  90%.

What the hell was I reading??


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

The mRNA Vaccines Are Extraordinary, but Novavax Is Even Better
					

Persistent hype around mRNA vaccine technology is now distracting us from other ways to end the pandemic.




					www.theatlantic.com


----------



## SoylentGreen

Paul O Mahoney said:


> How did we miss this announcement by Curevac? Its CEO has said that 13 variants weighed on its efficacy which was only 47% out of 40000 trial population. AZ and Pfizer/Biotech are about 90% after 2 doses


Well I didn't.  Because it's UK partner's shares took a huge tumble on the announcement. I felt the pain in my pocket.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

SoylentGreen said:


> Well I didn't.  Because it's UK partner's shares took a huge tumble on the announcement. I felt the pain in my pocket.


I wouldn't be throwing the baby out with the bath water yet. It might be that they got the dosage wrong,  I think they encountered flu like side effects at higher dosage and the tweaking was down. 

MRNA technology is still in its infancy and with the virus being with us for an unknown time they might get better results in focusing on specific variants or mix of variants .


----------



## Prosper

Paul O Mahoney said:


> MRNA technology is still in its infancy and with the virus being with us for an unknown time they might get better results in focusing on specific variants or mix of variants .


Was watching Horizon on BBC2 last Tuesday about the development of various vaccines. They spoke to scientists working on the various vaccines. Prof. Teresa Lambe (from Kildare and a UCD graduate) who is one of the co-developers of the AZ vaccine at Oxfords Jenner Institute was very much featured in the programme. Anyway, one of the people involved in the development of the Pfizer MRNA vaccine said that this new technology makes it easier to adapt a vaccine to cope with new variants. That's reassuring news.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Prosper said:


> Was watching Horizon on BBC2 last Tuesday about the development of various vaccines. They spoke to scientists working on the various vaccines. Prof. Teresa Lambe (from Kildare and a UCD graduate) who is one of the co-developers of the AZ vaccine at Oxfords Jenner Institute was very much featured in the programme. Anyway, one of the people involved in the development of the Pfizer MRNA vaccine said that this new technology makes it easier to adapt a vaccine to cope with new variants. That's reassuring news.


I think Prof Lambe got an "honorary knighthood",  don't know what the equivalent for a woman is, in the Queens Birthday honours list.

That's the beauty of the mRNA its essentially programmable to seek out the protein signature of the virus and tell your T cells to attack it.

Although still in its infancy in its usage, the technology has been around for 30yrs but wasn't really taken seriously by the general scientific community with the Hungarian woman been chucked out various research universities due to funding being pulled or directed elsewhere.

But her and the Biontech owners kept going albeit in the cancer arena and progress was slow but here we are.

There is now research starting that might allow one dose of an MNRA vaccine to inoculate from multiple viruses including the flu? This is the holy grail of the vaccine world and there is an ex-Pfizer researcher who has been working on this for years , funded mostly by donors including Gates, and they use pigs in Honduras to test, (this isn't mRNA though,  but might change now)

Vaccines were always the poor relation in the biopharmaceutical/ pharmaceutical world,  not enough profit but that's now being challenged too.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Mixing Covid jabs has good immune response, study finds
					

Any combination of Pfizer or AstraZeneca for first and second doses works, a study suggests.



					www.bbc.com
				




This news should increase the flexibility of the roll out.


----------



## odyssey06

Concerns re: Delta variant have change the equation for risk v benefits for the non mRNA vaccines.
I understand pharmacies are keen to play a bigger role in the vaccination process now that they can use those vaccines on all age groups.

_Both the AstraZeneca and Janssen vaccines will be made available for *all age groups*. They had previously been made available for those over 50. 
Earlier today, it emerged that the delay between receiving both doses of the AstraZeneca Covid-19 vaccine is expected to be halved after a recommendation from the National Immunisation Advisory Committee (NIAC)._









						AstraZeneca and Janssen vaccines to be made available to all age groups
					

Earlier this month, the gap between doses of this vaccine was reduced from 12 weeks to eight.




					www.thejournal.ie


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

odyssey06 said:


> Concerns re: Delta variant have change the equation for risk v benefits for the non mRNA vaccines.
> I understand pharmacies are keen to play a bigger role in the vaccination process now that they can use those vaccines on all age groups.
> 
> _Both the AstraZeneca and Janssen vaccines will be made available for *all age groups*. They had previously been made available for those over 50.
> Earlier today, it emerged that the delay between receiving both doses of the AstraZeneca Covid-19 vaccine is expected to be halved after a recommendation from the National Immunisation Advisory Committee (NIAC)._
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AstraZeneca and Janssen vaccines to be made available to all age groups
> 
> 
> Earlier this month, the gap between doses of this vaccine was reduced from 12 weeks to eight.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thejournal.ie


It will be interesting to see how the 4 week interval for AZ works out in terms of side effects, but if it speeds things up go for it.


----------



## joer

Getting my second AZ tomorrow so I expect to be jumping round the garden......or the Golf course in my case


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Covid: NHS plans booster jab for those 50 and over before winter
					

The UK's vaccine committee says winter could see spikes in flu and Covid, putting pressure on the NHS.



					www.bbc.com
				




Well I can't imagine us not following suit on this. It'll be interesting to see what the NIAC will say and when.


----------



## odyssey06

Pharmacies set to begin vaccinating 18-34 year-olds from next Monday...
Stephen Donnelly said that the youngest age cohort of adults would have an option to be given the single dose Johnson & Johnson vaccine from their pharmacist from next week. Donnelly also confirmed that the online booking system for 30-34 year-olds will also open next Friday.








						Pharmacies set to begin vaccinating 18-34 year-olds from next Monday
					

People in the age bracket can contact a participating pharmacy to book an appointment for the jab.




					www.thejournal.ie


----------



## odyssey06

Boots vaccination slots can be booked now for all ages for J&J single dose.


----------



## michaelm

Will many young people sign up for J&J or AZ given potential side effects in younger people and them being less effective than the Pfizer?  I guess the J&J single jab might be attractive to them from an ease of travel and access to indoor hospitality viewpoint.  I will advise my older children to wait for the Pfizer.


----------



## odyssey06

michaelm said:


> Will many young people sign up for J&J or AZ given potential side effects in younger people and them being less effective than the Pfizer?  I guess the J&J single jab might be attractive to them from an ease of travel and access to indoor hospitality viewpoint.  I will advise my older children to wait for the Pfizer.


AZ maybe not, but I can see J&J being very popular because it is single dose.
I think we may have the opposite issue with J&J and not having enough supply to meet demand.


----------



## odyssey06

"Ireland is on the brink of buying one million Covid-19 vaccines from the Romania. I understand the deal includes 700k Pfizer and 300k Moderna doses"



			https://twitter.com/KevDoyle_Indo/status/1410963065999331328?s=20


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

odyssey06 said:


> "Ireland is on the brink of buying one million Covid-19 vaccines from the Romania. I understand the deal includes 700k Pfizer and 300k Moderna doses"
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/KevDoyle_Indo/status/1410963065999331328?s=20


I like Pfizer delivered just short of 320k doses last week add this to it and we might just get the whole feckin thing done and dusted by All Ireland Final time.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

michaelm said:


> Will many young people sign up for J&J or AZ given potential side effects in younger people and them being less effective than the Pfizer?  I guess the J&J single jab might be attractive to them from an ease of travel and access to indoor hospitality viewpoint.  I will advise my older children to wait for the Pfizer.


On what basis would you give such advice?


----------



## odyssey06

Paul O Mahoney said:


> I like Pfizer delivered just short of 320k doses last week add this to it and we might just get the whole feckin thing done and dusted by All Ireland Final time.


The best Ireland romania combo since Italia 90...


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

odyssey06 said:


> The best Ireland romania combo since Italia 90...


I can still remember it as if it was today. It was magical. Perhaps we need that spark again.


----------



## Merowig

odyssey06 said:


> Boots vaccination slots can be booked now for all ages for J&J single dose.


sure?






						COVID-19 vaccination - Inspiration & advice - Boots Ireland
					

Ever since COVID-19 disrupted our lives, there's been talk of a vaccine. Now there's one available, find out the key facts here.




					www.boots.ie
				



states for 50+


----------



## Merowig

Paul O Mahoney said:


> On what basis would you give such advice?


Because countries like Germany recommend the use of J&J and AstraZeneca only for the age group 60+ due to the cases of thrombosis.


----------



## odyssey06

Merowig said:


> sure?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 vaccination - Inspiration & advice - Boots Ireland
> 
> 
> Ever since COVID-19 disrupted our lives, there's been talk of a vaccine. Now there's one available, find out the key facts here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.boots.ie
> 
> 
> 
> 
> states for 50+


Im hearing conflicting info... some people u50 were booking then the booking was cancelled. Hopefully situation will clarify soon.


----------



## Savvy

odyssey06 said:


> Im hearing conflicting info... some people u50 were booking then the booking was cancelled. Hopefully situation will clarify soon.


From hse site https://www2.hse.ie/Apps/Services/PharmaciesServiceList.aspx



> Many pharmacies are now offering the Janssen single-dose COVID-19 vaccine to people *aged 18 to 34 and 50 or over*.


----------



## SoylentGreen

Do we know why Romania is selling us one million or so vaccines?   Have they an oversupply?  Has everyone been vaccinated in Romania?


----------



## Deiseblue

Paul O Mahoney said:


> I can still remember it as if it was today. It was magical. Perhaps we need that spark again.


A brilliant penalty shoot out but a dreadful game .
Myself and a few mates were in Genoa for the game and on returning to the bar that we frequented during our stay the owner had a special treat for us - he recorded the game in it's entirety for us  - it was a long night !


----------



## odyssey06

More on Boots...

A statement from Boots Ireland said it has temporarily closed down its bookings for Covid vaccines “as all available appointments have been booked”.

https://www.thejournal.ie/janssen-ireland-vaccine-5484789-Jul2021/


----------



## Prosper

SoylentGreen said:


> Do we know why Romania is selling us one million or so vaccines?


Vaccine hesitancy is high in Romania. So they have a stock of vaccines that they cannot use quick enough and so will pass the use by date. So their glad to be able to sell them.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Deiseblue said:


> A brilliant penalty shoot out but a dreadful game .
> Myself and a few mates were in Genoa for the game and on returning to the bar that we frequented during our stay the owner had a special treat for us - he recorded the game in it's entirety for us  - it was a long night !


Were you one of the hoards who were calling the local credit union for  extra funds. Like the rest of the country we watched in the pub, then into Cork city centre........what a night.


----------



## Deiseblue

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Were you one of the hoards who were calling the local credit union for  extra funds. Like the rest of the country we watched in the pub, then into Cork city centre........what a night.


We travelled with Dave Bacuzzi travel - ex Cork Hibs Manager and then branched out on our own for the games v Romania and Italy - flop houses from then on 3 to a bed but funnily enough never went short of drink !
We couldn't get back from Italy and had to travel to Paris by train and fly from there - the only available seats were in first class which were paid for by card by one of the lad's fiancee. 
It was just the 3 of us and the Dubliners in first class who were returning from a European tour , great guys who advised us to drink our body weight in snipes of champagne to get our money's worth.


----------



## peemac

SoylentGreen said:


> Do we know why Romania is selling us one million or so vaccines?   Have they an oversupply?  Has everyone been vaccinated in Romania?


Romanians tend to have very little trust in their government and a large number live in very rural areas and simply won't take a vaccine.

With expiry dates of end July and end August and excess supply, it's sell them now or dump them in 4 weeks.


----------



## peemac

michaelm said:


> Will many young people sign up for J&J or AZ given potential side effects in younger people and them being less effective than the Pfizer?  I guess the J&J single jab might be attractive to them from an ease of travel and access to indoor hospitality viewpoint.  I will advise my older children to wait for the Pfizer.


The chance of a blood clot is miniscule. You have a far greater chance of multiples of dying in a car accident in the next 3 months.

When the blood clots were first found there was concern as they did not know the specific clot it was and therefore did not know what to treat it with. That was sorted back in April and they now know how to treat it, (literally a course of tablets) hence zero deaths or serious illness since then.

Unfortunately the media and those on social media don't put the same effort into updating the information.

If momentum continues and people put trust in the experts, 90%+ will be fully vaccinated by early August - and we may pass out the excellent UK levels.


----------



## michaelm

peemac said:


> Unfortunately the media and those on social media don't put the same effort into updating the information.


According to the BBC _up to 16 June there were 389 reported cases of blood clots with low platelet levels in people who had the AstraZeneca vaccine in the UK, with 68 deaths.  In the same period there were 12 cases in people given the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine, with one death, and none in those receiving the Moderna vaccine.  By this date about 16.8m Pfizer/BioNTech, 24.5m AstraZeneca and 0.73m Moderna vaccine first doses had been administered in the UK._

My older children have decided to wait for the Pfizer on the basis that Covid poses little risk to them, so there is no rush to take a poor cousin vaccine.  Each to their own.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

michaelm said:


> According to the BBC _up to 16 June there were 389 reported cases of blood clots with low platelet levels in people who had the AstraZeneca vaccine in the UK, with 68 deaths.  In the same period there were 12 cases in people given the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine, with one death, and none in those receiving the Moderna vaccine.  By this date about 16.8m Pfizer/BioNTech, 24.5m AstraZeneca and 0.73m Moderna vaccine first doses had been administered in the UK._
> 
> My older children have decided to wait for the Pfizer on the basis that Covid poses little risk to them, so there is no rush to take a poor cousin vaccine.  Each to their own.


Wow. Even what you posted contradicts your own thoughts. 

Each to their own,  No, you are simply being elitist.


----------



## EmmDee

Merowig said:


> Because countries like Germany recommend the use of J&J and AstraZeneca only for the age group 60+ due to the cases of thrombosis.



Not accurate. I have a 20 something year old in Germany who has been vaccinated with J&J


----------



## Prosper

michaelm said:


> My older children have decided to wait for the Pfizer on the basis that Covid poses little risk to them, so there is no rush to take a poor cousin vaccine. Each to their own.


From previous posts and now this post, it seems surprising given the way you apply logical thinking that you haven't thought _"Viral vector vaccines like AZ & J&J have been tried and tested over many years whereas mRNA vaccines have been in use for less than a year and have only been given emergency use authorization. Therefore, I'm advising my children to take the AZ or J&J vaccine and not take the mRNA type vaccine because they're not tried and tested"_


----------



## michaelm

Prosper said:


> I'm advising my children to take the AZ or J&J vaccine and not take the mRNA type vaccine because they're not tried and tested


That seems like a reasonable rational to me.  I considered same.  On balance my view is that the mRNA is a better option.  I'm not suggesting I'm right and you're wrong.  AZ and J&J are no more tried and tested than Pfizer, they are all beta tests.  Have they not all only been given emergency use authorization?


----------



## Merowig

EmmDee said:


> Not accurate. I have a 20 something year old in Germany who has been vaccinated with J&J







__





						RKI  -  Empfehlungen der STIKO - STIKO zu COVID-19-Impfstoff Janssen, STIKO zum Einsatz der COVID-19-Impfstoffe in der Schwangerschaft, Pressemitteilung
					

Der abgestimmte Beschlussentwurf und die wissenschaftliche Begründung befinden sich aktuell im Stellungnahmeverfahren mit den Bundesländern und den betroffenen Fachkreisen. Die Verabschiedung des Beschlusses wird nach Prüfung der Rückläufe und erneuter Beratung der STIKO erfolgen. Grundsätzlich...




					www.rki.de
				



" Auf Basis der derzeit verfügbaren US-amerikanischen Daten und nach eingehenden Beratungen empfiehlt die STIKO, analog zur COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca (Vaxzevria), auch den COVID-19-Impfstoff Janssen in der Regel für Personen im Alter ab 60 Jahren zu verwenden. Der Einsatz der COVID-19 Vaccine Janssen unterhalb dieser Altersgrenze bleibt wie bei Vaxzevria jedoch weiterhin nach ärztlicher Aufklärung und bei individueller Risikoakzeptanz durch die impfwillige Person möglich."

The advise is still that only over 60 years old get vaccinated with AstraZeneca or J&J. It is possible ttp get it while being in a youger age group if you get medical advice from a doctor and you accept the risks. My statement is accurate. The recommendation is still in place - people  can chose to go against that advice if they wish so.


----------



## Merowig

peemac said:


> Romanians tend to have very little trust in their government and a large number live in very rural areas and simply won't take a vaccine.
> 
> With expiry dates of end July and end August and excess supply, it's sell them now or dump them in 4 weeks.


Also it is difficult to reach some communities in the mountains or in the Danube Delta.

Denmark is buying as well 1.1 million doses from Romania.

Israel proposed a similar deal to the Palestinians which they first agreed to but then they pushed back and didn't want that any longer.


----------



## Prosper

michaelm said:


> That seems like a reasonable rational to me. I considered same. On balance my view is that the mRNA is a better option. I'm not suggesting I'm right and you're wrong. AZ and J&J are no more tried and tested than Pfizer, they are all beta tests. Have they not all only been given emergency use authorization?


My point in my previous post is to question the soundness of your logic. I have no preference myself to either viral vector or mRNA vaccines. I'm not qualified to make the judgement between them. I was offered the AZ and I gladly accepted. If I'd been offered the Pfizer I'd have gladly accepted. I'm suggesting to you that if you are going to post comments such as "poor cousin vaccine" thereby undermining peoples confidence in the AZ and J&J jabs and effectively recommend to unvaccinated people that they wait a month (maybe two or more) for an mRNA jab rather than have a Viral Vector jab now, without considering the risk they are taking of catching Covid during the waiting period and running the risk of for example long covid, then I think you are being disingenuous.
I'm suggesting that you could be more balanced in your comments. So, you could make the point that Viral Vector vaccines have been proven as effective and safe over many years whereas mRNA vaccines are only in use less than a year. You could address the issue of the probability (miniscule risk) of suffering a severe blood clotting with the Viral Vector jab compared to the probability (much more likely) of catching covid while waiting to be called for the mRNA jab and suffering severe blood clotting (much much more likely than from the vaccine) or long covid with heart or lung damage by catching covid during the couple of months waiting period.


----------



## Merowig

Prosper said:


> My point in my previous post is to question the soundness of your logic. I have no preference myself to either viral vector or mRNA vaccines. I'm not qualified to make the judgement between them. I was offered the AZ and I gladly accepted. If I'd been offered the Pfizer I'd have gladly accepted. I'm suggesting to you that if you are going to post comments such as "poor cousin vaccine" thereby undermining peoples confidence in the AZ and J&J jabs and effectively recommend to unvaccinated people that they wait a month (maybe two or more) for an mRNA jab rather than have a Viral Vector jab now, without considering the risk they are taking of catching Covid during the waiting period and running the risk of for example long covid, then I think you are being disingenuous.
> I'm suggesting that you could be more balanced in your comments. So, you could make the point that Viral Vector vaccines have been proven as effective and safe over many years whereas mRNA vaccines are only in use less than a year. You could address the issue of the probability (miniscule risk) of suffering a severe blood clotting with the Viral Vector jab compared to the probability (much more likely) of catching covid while waiting to be called for the mRNA jab and suffering severe blood clotting (much much more likely than from the vaccine) or long covid with heart or lung damage by catching covid during the couple of months waiting period.



As previously stated some governments (which I personally trust more than the Irish government) still recommend that only older people get AstraZeneca or J&J. Some other countries have ditched AZ and/or J&J completely and have not resumed it. Also the EU did not extend the contract with AstraZeneca  - in the future you will have only mRNA vaccines.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

It should also be noted that both Pfizer and Modernas vaccines do have risks and one is heart inflammation. The US military have given over 2.3m doses to personnel and 23 cases have been identified so far, again a tiny risk , like blood clots.

I read somewhere that the FDA have mandated that the information sheet that accompanies the vaccines need to highlight this.

So, every vaccine has side effects and some are severe and in some cases fatal, but each vaccine also is very effective in preventing death and serious illness .

I just cannot understand why people assign "grades" .


----------



## Merowig

Paul O Mahoney said:


> It should also be noted that both Pfizer and Modernas vaccines do have risks and one is heart inflammation. The US military have given over 2.3m doses to personnel and 23 cases have been identified so far, again a tiny risk , like blood clots.
> 
> I read somewhere that the FDA have mandated that the information sheet that accompanies the vaccines need to highlight this.
> 
> So, every vaccine has side effects and some are severe and in some cases fatal, but each vaccine also is very effective in preventing death and serious illness .


Also several cases of the heart inflammation in Israel (afaik it was first observed there) and last time I checked it was 92 cases in Germany.
It mainly effects younger males but looks it is less risky/of an issue than the blood clots.


----------



## EmmDee

Merowig said:


> The advise is still that only over 60 years old get vaccinated with AstraZeneca or J&J. It is possible ttp get it while being in a youger age group if you get medical advice from a doctor and you accept the risks. My statement is accurate. The recommendation is still in place - people  can chose to go against that advice if they wish so.



You don't need medical advice and you don't need to go through any "risk acceptance" hoops - at least not in some regions

Koch Institute doesn't determine regional policies - it may advise but doesn't determine policies.


----------



## michaelm

Prosper said:


> I'm suggesting that you could be more balanced in your comments.


Lets try. 

In my view vaccines are a big part of the solution and the benefits of the approved vaccines outweigh the associated risks in the general population.  It does seem that risks associated with the viral vector vaccines are far more likely to impact younger people than older people.  Conversely, the virus is far less likely to trouble younger people than older people.  This is reflected in different jurisdictions with varying caveats specifically surrounding giving Covid vector viral vaccines to younger people.  This combined with the reported better efficacy and effectiveness against variants would lead me to chose mRNA over viral vector (despite the relatively new techniques and the recently reported mild self-limiting myocarditis). 

It seems the choice facing younger people is to opt for a virus vector now or wait till next month for an mRNA.  My advise to my older children, and no one else, is to wait.  If you, or others, see my view as illogical or disingenuous, or indeed elitist, I won't lose any sleep.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

michaelm said:


> Lets try.
> 
> In my view vaccines are a big part of the solution and the benefits of the approved vaccines outweigh the associated risks in the general population.  It does seem that risks associated with the viral vector vaccines are far more likely to impact younger people than older people.  Conversely, the virus is far less likely to trouble younger people than older people.  This is reflected in different jurisdictions with varying caveats specifically surrounding giving Covid vector viral vaccines to younger people.  This combined with the reported better efficacy and effectiveness against variants would lead me to chose mRNA over viral vector (despite the relatively new techniques and the recently reported mild self-limiting myocarditis).
> 
> It seems the choice facing younger people is to opt for a virus vector now or wait till next month for an mRNA.  My advise to my older children, and no one else, is to wait.  If you, or others, see my view as illogical or disingenuous, or indeed elitist, I won't lose any sleep.


It's your decision but do we have to hear about it ?
Most of us try and pass on information to inform each other and allay fears that some people have, you talk about yourself.


----------



## michaelm

Paul O Mahoney said:


> It's your decision but do we have to hear about it ?


Argo.  I hadn't realised that only vaccine cheerleading was permitted.  Just hover over my username and click 'Ignore'.

@Prosper Re probabilities, I understand that the risks are statistically tiny.  Interestingly this modelling study suggests that for the 18-29 age group the chances of death from an AZ clot, albeit miniscule, is 3 times that of death from Covid.  Sacrebleu.


----------



## Merowig

EmmDee said:


> You don't need medical advice and you don't need to go through any "risk acceptance" hoops - at least not in some regions
> 
> Koch Institute doesn't determine regional policies - it may advise but doesn't determine policies.


The Website of the Ministry of Health states the same though as the RKI. https://www.bundesgesundheitsministerium.de/coronavirus/faq-covid-19-impfung.html
Bavaria as well: https://www.stmgp.bayern.de/coronavirus/impfung/









						Coronavirus
					

Coronavirus




					www.tagesschau.de
				



Der Impfstoff von AstraZeneca ist in drei Bundesländern für alle Altersgruppen freigegeben worden: Nach Sachsen entschieden auch Mecklenburg-Vorpommern und Bayern, die Priorisierung für diesen Impfstoff komplett aufzuheben. Bei Menschen unter 60 Jahren ist jedoch vor dem Spritzen eine ausführliche Beratung durch den Impfarzt notwendig, wie die Gesundheitsministerien mitteilten.

The provinces still require extensive advise from the Doctor in case for the under 60s.
Other countries like Denmark and Norway stopped the usage completely. AstraZeneca was bought extensively in Eastern Europe because it is cheaper and is partially responsible for some of the vaccination hesitancy observed there.

In most of the cases the advise of the RKI is followed.


----------



## Prosper

michaelm said:


> for the 18-29 age group the chances of death from an AZ clot, albeit miniscule, is 3 times that of death from Covid.


Agreed, chances of death are tiny but what about long term health effects? You ignored this point that I made earlier. 


Prosper said:


> You could address the issue of the probability (miniscule risk) of suffering a severe blood clotting with the Viral Vector jab compared to the probability (much more likely) of catching covid while waiting to be called for the mRNA jab and suffering severe blood clotting (much much more likely than from the vaccine) or long covid with heart or lung damage by catching covid during the couple of months waiting period.


----------



## peemac

Merowig said:


> Some other countries have ditched AZ and/or J&J completely and have not resumed it. Also the EU did not extend the contract with AstraZeneca  - in the future you will have only mRNA vaccines.


Simple reasoning for this is Astra zeneca botched initial delivery timeframes and prioritised the UK to the detriment of their agreement with Europe.

Pfizer on the other hand made huge efforts to meet their commitments and then delivered additional supplies.

Pfizer also ramped up manufacturing and effectively from aug will be more than able to supply more than enough for the EU demand.

So why would anyone enter a new agreement with a company that did not keep or even try to keep to their delivery schedule and proved themselves to be very unreliable?


----------



## EmmDee

Merowig said:


> The provinces still require extensive advise from the Doctor in case for the under 60s.



You keep saying that - it's just not accurate. You can book a J&J or AZ vaccination in Berlin without a Doctor referral and with hardly any waiting time.


----------



## peemac

Looks like the % numbers here are going to pass out the UK % numbers this week.

There's a lot of vaccine hesitation in the UK and that's slowing the take up whereas here, possibly due to potential restrictions on unvaccinated people accessing pubs and restaurants, take up is extremely high.

The UK "experiment" on lifting restrictions will be very interesting to follow.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

peemac said:


> The UK "experiment" on lifting restrictions will be very interesting to follow.











						Covid: Cases in UK rise above 30,000 for first time since January
					

More than 32,500 confirmed cases have been reported in the country, up 43% on the same day last week.



					www.bbc.com
				




Look at what Boris said , nobody else has said this not even his CMO or any other agency who are dealing with the pandemic.


----------



## Prosper

peemac said:


> Looks like the % numbers here are going to pass out the UK % numbers this week.


Last week there was a day that we vaccinated more than 50,000 people and it was double the UK per capita rate on that day. I think we've been averaging over 50,000 per day since whereas the UK are averaging about 300,000 a day. That's less than half our rate. I assume their rate has slowed down and ours has picked up a bit. Maybe the UK is now getting to the age cohort that is vaccine hesitant. Also, I think vaccine hesitancy is generally higher in the UK than in Ireland.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

680,000 doses received last week, AZ dropped in 300,000 and still was second,  Pfizer still consistent at 315k average over the last few weeks.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

From The Journal, 

_*
"CABINET WAS TOLD today that of the 124 patients admitted to ICU with Covid-19 between 24 March and 23 June, 18 patients had received one dose of a vaccine.
Five had received two doses of the vaccine, but just one patient was identified as having received their second dose more than 14 days prior to their positive test result.
This case has been classified as a “breakthrough infection”.*_
*Breakthrough infections, which occur when fully vaccinated people are infected, are an entirely expected part of any vaccination process. "*

Obviously these are small numbers and the Delta variant wasn't as prevalent as it is now.
However they highlight the effects of the vaccination program on the serious illness and the importance of 2 doses .

I view this as excellent news and hopefully with the increase in cases that will inevitably come hospitalisations and ICU figures remain manageable.

During the weekend it was said on the BBC that hospitalisation was approximately 13% of cases last year, but the figure now lies between 1and 3% , but the effects of the Delta variant were not yet fully understood.


----------



## Purple

Paul O Mahoney said:


> "CABINET WAS TOLD today that of the 124 patients admitted to ICU with Covid-19 between 24 March and 23 June, 18 patients had received one dose of a vaccine.


I know it's off topic but why does everyone leave the "The" out when talking about the Government and the Cabinet?
"Government" is used when talking about the idea of government rather than a specific government. The same goes for "Cabinet". It annoys me far more than it should.


----------



## Ceist Beag

Of the five who had received two doses, was there any mention of whether they had underlying conditions or were in a high risk category?


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Purple said:


> I know it's off topic but why does everyone leave the "The" out when talking about the Government and the Cabinet?
> "Government" is used when talking about the idea of government rather than a specific government. The same goes for "Cabinet". It annoys me far more than it should.


Never noticed that, now you mention it yeah why? 
Now theres two of us .......but I'm not going to mull over it, painting a bench , stupid bench.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Ceist Beag said:


> Of the five who had received two doses, was there any mention of whether they had underlying conditions or were in a high risk category?


That's all they posted on that issue I'm afraid.


----------



## Purple

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Never noticed that, now you mention it yeah why?
> Now theres two of us .......but I'm not going to mull over it, painting a bench , stupid bench.


Now that you've noticed it you'll keep noticing it... sorry.


----------



## IsleOfMan

Europe: COVID-19 vaccination rate by country 2022 | Statista
					

As of August 4, 2022, Malta had the highest COVID-19 vaccination rate in Europe having administered 252.69 doses per 100 people in the country, while Portugal had administered 240.94 doses per 100.




					www.statista.com
				




Some updates on European vaccination rollout.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Over 90% of people in Ireland aged over 16 are now fully vaccinated against Covid
					

It’s the highest rate in the European Union.




					www.thejournal.ie
				




There ya go and it's not 9 months since we started.
Well done all.


----------



## ClubMan

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Over 90% of people in Ireland aged over 16 are now fully vaccinated against Covid
> 
> 
> It’s the highest rate in the European Union.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thejournal.ie
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There ya go and it's not 9 months since we started.
> Well done all.


I suspect that the vaccination rate is higher than reported because c. 235K of us got the single jab Janssen vaccine and the emphasis always seems to be on those who have been double jabbed when counting those who are fully vaccinated. Either way it's been a great job by all involved and a great response by the vast majority of citizens.


----------



## tomdublin

The success of the vaccination programme also demonstrates the importance of public pressure & demands for accountability.  In its very early days the vaccination programme was lethargic and mired in red tape and the usual excuses, but due to pressure by the public and the media the government got its act together quite quickly.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

tomdublin said:


> The success of the vaccination programme also demonstrates the importance of public pressure & demands for accountability.  In its very early days the vaccination programme was lethargic and mired in red tape and the usual excuses, but due to pressure by the public and the media the government got its act together quite quickly.


But in reality there was a pan European shortage of vaccines. Nobody really expected this to go smoothly initially the logistics of getting vaccines to care homes should not be underestimated, but during that period we were administering as much as we could get.
There were things that perhaps should have been planned better like the use of GPs and pharmacies but they too wanted their " pound of flesh".
Additionally the information about the vaccine and it's safety was well done and it allowed people to make an informed decision. 
We are a lot of things and our governments of the past and now have much to be criticised for this isn't one of them,  the population wanted vaccines earlier but as seen they were fully committed and we are the shining light despite those initial issues.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Dunno if this is the correct thread to post this, but as its relevant to the continued rollout of the vaccine and probably boosters for the vulnerable I'll give it a go.

BBC just showed a clip of a longer programme on the situation in Preston Hospital and the ongoing effects of Covid. 

2 women were sharing a ward both admitted for covid,  one vaccinated both became very sick with both needing intensive care but . However the woman vaccinated did not need the same level of oxygen as the other woman and the doctor attributed this to the vaccine and said that the booster for vulnerable and elderly is a must.
The unvaccinated woman was not an antivax but wasn't sure, shes a non smoker and doesn't drink and felt that she would be fine if she got covid,  she said on the clip, she was "near death".

It was a fairly emotional clip and both were on the mend and this is obviously anecdotal but I thought I'd share.


----------



## tomdublin

Paul O Mahoney said:


> The unvaccinated woman was not an antivax but wasn't sure, shes a non smoker and doesn't drink and felt that she would be fine if she got covid


She also doesn't seem very bright.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

It's now being widely reported that Mercks covid pill has shown a 50% reduction in hospitalization in people who had contracted covid. This has to be peer reviewed

I've tried to link but it isn't working for me today.

More good news, I believe Pfizer and others are also working on their pill versions and hope to be in production in 2022


----------



## Sophrosyne

Paul O Mahoney said:


> It's now being widely reported that Mercks covid pill has shown a 50% reduction in hospitalization in people who had contracted covid. This has to be peer reviewed
> 
> I've tried to link but it isn't working for me today.



Here is a link to a Reuters report on the Merck’s COVID-19 pill.

If it works, it would certainly be a game changer. The pill can be taken at home.

It might also be an easier option for distribution to countries with less developed health systems.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

New Zealand drops Covid zero goal after Delta outbreak
					

Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern has admitted that New Zealand's widely praised "Covid zero" strategy had failed to halt a stubborn outbreak in Auckland and said a new approach was needed.




					www.rte.ie
				




I have a lot of respect for Ardern I think she is the type of political leader modern countries need, however she and her government really have gotten their policies/strategies regarding Covid 19 wrong and I'm not taking pleasure in typing that.

While their efforts initially were the envy of the world the Delta variant has scuppered the "zero covid " approach has now been rendered useless. There has been some pretty large protests in Auckland over the past week where it still is under a severe lockdown.

And I suppose the lesson from New Zealand's and indeed Australias efforts is that zero covid simply doesn't work as the virus evolved and essentially side stepped human effort.

Vaccination is the only way out of this and I'm still of the opinion that we haven't seen the last battle with this virus yet and while vaccines are effective, trying to keep it out of any country is fruitless it adds more urgency to getting every country vaccinated or it'll be " rinse and repeat" with the virus remaining in the population.


----------



## Purple

Well said Paul. Viruses were here before us and they'll be here after we're gone. It is the height of folly and human arrogance to think that we can control their movement to such an extent that we can prevent them from entering entire countries. We can delay, but that's about it.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

BBC just had a report,  again with a dollop of nationalism, that the AZ vaccine has arrived in Antarctica to the British Exploration project. (25 doses in total I think)

This made me chuckle as they think its important,  however most poorer countries wait.


----------



## Purple

Paul O Mahoney said:


> BBC just had a report,  again with a dollop of nationalism, that the AZ vaccine has arrived in Antarctica to the British Exploration project. (25 doses in total I think)
> 
> This made me chuckle as they think its important,  however most poorer countries wait.


One had to look our for the chaps out there flying the flag of Empire don't you know?


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Ivermectin: How false science created a Covid 'miracle' drug
					

Thousands worldwide have taken ivermectin to fight Covid. But what's the evidence?



					www.bbc.com
				




Ye might want to read this in bed as its long and detailed.
But it firmly shows that all the "truths " about ivermectin were actually "lies" and were lies purposefully made up to harm people.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

The Sunday Business Post today has a story where it says the HSE are struggling with identifying people who would need a booster jab .
22500 people have been identified via hospital records,  with 50% receiving appointments and 4000 receiving a jab.

Its goes on to say that the HSE thinks there are 50-100k people who will need a third jab.

Reading this one would be forgiven to think what do these people in the HSE do all day?

We have vaccinated a huge swathe of the population,  surely the details of these vulnerable are already known,  otherwise how were they identified initially?

This is unbelievable, there is no register for immunocompromised patients in Ireland and the work is very "labour intensive " in all honesty you couldn't make this up, the data was generated why are the reinventing the wheel? A simple database query would do this, but of course that would assume that the original data was captured properly.

Can't link but p10 in SBP has the story.


----------



## odyssey06

Cohort 7 were messed about a lot aswell, it was one the blots on the general success story of the vaccine rollout and seems to be repeating here.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

odyssey06 said:


> Cohort 7 were messed about a lot aswell, it was one the blots on the general success story of the vaccine rollout and seems to be repeating here.


Its 2021 how can we have a health system that doesn't have data on patients?

And on your point,  of course you're correct,  but why didn't they capture those who are vulnerable during the vaccination program 8 months ago?

There just seems to be a lack of basic management skills at every level of an organisation that consumes billions of euros annually.  

Its maddening and potentially lethal to citizens.


----------



## odyssey06

67% OF PATIENTS being treated in intensive care units with Covid-19 have not been vaccinated, HSE chief Paul Reid has said. 
Speaking on RTÉ’s This Week, Reid said that of the 74 people currently in ICU with the virus, 67% have not been vaccinated while 3% are partially vaccinated.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

odyssey06 said:


> 67% OF PATIENTS being treated in intensive care units with Covid-19 have not been vaccinated, HSE chief Paul Reid has said.
> Speaking on RTÉ’s This Week, Reid said that of the 74 people currently in ICU with the virus, 67% have not been vaccinated while 3% are partially vaccinated.


Pudding and proof that it's our only way out of this.


----------



## Odea

odyssey06 said:


> 67% OF PATIENTS being treated in intensive care units with Covid-19 have not been vaccinated, HSE chief Paul Reid has said.
> Speaking on RTÉ’s This Week, Reid said that of the 74 people currently in ICU with the virus, 67% have not been vaccinated while 3% are partially vaccinated.


It does mean though that 30% of people in ICU have been fully vaccinated.


----------



## Purple

Paul O Mahoney said:


> The Sunday Business Post today has a story where it says the HSE are struggling with identifying people who would need a booster jab .
> 22500 people have been identified via hospital records,  with 50% receiving appointments and 4000 receiving a jab.
> 
> Its goes on to say that the HSE thinks there are 50-100k people who will need a third jab.
> 
> Reading this one would be forgiven to think what do these people in the HSE do all day?
> 
> We have vaccinated a huge swathe of the population,  surely the details of these vulnerable are already known,  otherwise how were they identified initially?
> 
> This is unbelievable, there is no register for immunocompromised patients in Ireland and the work is very "labour intensive " in all honesty you couldn't make this up, the data was generated why are the reinventing the wheel? A simple database query would do this, but of course that would assume that the original data was captured properly.
> 
> Can't link but p10 in SBP has the story.


Paul, I'm surprised you are surprised.

It turns out that if you question the structural weaknesses within the HSE, the massive duplication of processes, the almost complete lack of standardisation, the fact that the HSE is in fact just an umbrella body which sits on top of the old Health Boards and Voluntary Hospitals (whose structures are both intact and unconnected) and point out that modern IT systems cannot to rolled out when such systematic structural chaos is ubiquitous you are, in fact, naive. 
When you ask whether the people working within the system should take any responsibility for the suffering and deaths that are caused by the work practices and structures they protect you are also naive.


----------



## Purple

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Pudding and proof that it's our only way out of this.


There are thousands of puddings, you can't avoid stepping on them while navigating your way around our world class healthcare system, staffed by heroes who are the best doctors and nurses in the world...


----------



## Purple

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Its maddening and potentially lethal to citizens


There's nothing potential about it. The death and suffering caused is very real.


----------



## Leo

Odea said:


> It does mean though that 30% of people in ICU have been fully vaccinated.


We know the vaccine is not 100% effective, and also that those with compromised immune systems will often have less of a response to, and so less protection from vaccines. It is highly likely that without the vaccine they would be in even worse shape.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Purple said:


> Paul, I'm surprised you are surprised.
> 
> It turns out that if you question the structural weaknesses within the HSE, the massive duplication of processes, the almost complete lack of standardisation, the fact that the HSE is in fact just an umbrella body which sits on top of the old Health Boards and Voluntary Hospitals (whose structures are both intact and unconnected) and point out that modern IT systems cannot to rolled out when such systematic structural chaos is ubiquitous you are, in fact, naive.
> When you ask whether the people working within the system should take any responsibility for the suffering and deaths that are caused by the work practices and structures they protect you are also naive.


Oh I know I honestly thought that with the pandemic and the need to contact and record that it might have been different. The rollout was well done and they should be congratulated for that but this is just is wrong.


----------



## Purple

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Oh I know I honestly thought that with the pandemic and the need to contact and record that it might have been different. The rollout was well done and they should be congratulated for that but this is just is wrong.


When they can start from scratch they can do great work but when they are constrained by the existing structures and work practices it's a disaster.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Covid: Anti-vax protesters intimidate teen outside jab centre
					

Grace, 15, who uses a wheelchair after having Covid last year, was at a centre to receive a jab.



					www.bbc.com
				



I saw a tweet highlighting this and thought I'd get the full story. 

People who don't want to take the vaccine are perfectly entitled to their view and most get on their lives, but  then there are these nutters.

I know we have our vocal anti vaxxers to but I've not seen/read/heard them carrying on like this.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

French study of over 22m people finds vaccines cut severe Covid risk by 90%
					

Largest study of its kind also finds vaccines appear to protect against worst effects of Delta variant




					www.theguardian.com
				




This is a huge study 22m in fact and the results are way beyond what anyone would have thought possible. 

We really need to get the poorer countries vaccinated now, the west has done what it can and has protected the majority.


----------



## odyssey06

Paul O Mahoney said:


> French study of over 22m people finds vaccines cut severe Covid risk by 90%
> 
> 
> Largest study of its kind also finds vaccines appear to protect against worst effects of Delta variant
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is a huge study 22m in fact and the results are way beyond what anyone would have thought possible.
> 
> We really need to get the poorer countries vaccinated now, the west has done what it can and has protected the majority.


I'm not convinced about the J&J  single dose effectiveness v Delta variant. Given that was used for over 50s, I don't think we should take the eye of the ball there on that cohort in terms of a booster.

I'm curious where all the J&J and astrazeneca vaccines are going at the moment from all the production plants that popped up. India?


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

odyssey06 said:


> I'm not convinced about the J&J  single dose effectiveness v Delta variant. Given that was used for over 50s, I don't think we should take the eye of the ball there on that cohort in terms of a booster.
> 
> I'm curious where all the J&J and astrazeneca vaccines are going at the moment from all the production plants that popped up. India?


In reality all the people who got J&J should be given a booster, I haven't read if AZ has a booster.
I don't think theres another booster that has done trials available or at least not approved.

Last question,  who knows.


----------



## odyssey06

Paul O Mahoney said:


> In reality all the people who got J&J should be given a booster, I haven't read if AZ has a booster.
> I don't think theres another booster that has done trials available or at least not approved.
> 
> Last question,  who knows.



I'd be less concerned about AZ, at least they got 2 doses. In the hierarchy it's:
Pfizer 2 dose
Moderna 2 dose
AZ 2 dose
J&J 1 dose

I don't know if this will be sufficient for authorisation:








						J&J Covid vaccine recipients are better off getting Pfizer or Moderna booster, NIH study suggests
					

The NIH study on "mixing and matching" Covid vaccines included more than 450 adults who received J&J's, Moderna's or Pfizer's shots.




					www.cnbc.com


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

odyssey06 said:


> I'd be less concerned about AZ, at least they got 2 doses. In the hierarchy it's:
> Pfizer 2 dose
> Moderna 2 dose
> AZ 2 dose
> J&J 1 dose
> 
> I don't know if this will be sufficient for authorisation:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> J&J Covid vaccine recipients are better off getting Pfizer or Moderna booster, NIH study suggests
> 
> 
> The NIH study on "mixing and matching" Covid vaccines included more than 450 adults who received J&J's, Moderna's or Pfizer's shots.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnbc.com


They all wane but like everything now nobody seems to know exactly by how much, the French study is probably the best study so far, and that appears to have ifs and buts too.
Israel has seen a pick up in cases and hospitalisations but they don't seem clear on what is causing this either.

I think when I joined this thread last year I said getting people vaccinated is really only step one,  all the  known knowns will come first,  we already have known unknowns and what unknown unknowns that are lurking is anyone's guess at this time.

Personally I think the vaccine in tablet/pill form is probably the best way that the planet will deal with this , if someone gets Covid get the tablet from the local pharmacy and hopefully not allow someone to end up in hospital. This is of course until the true source of this has been found, understood and prevented,  so, sometime in the next 100 years.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Why are cases high if our vaccine rate is so good? Our proximity to the UK, says Donnelly
					

No consideration is being given to re-introducing any restrictions, says the minister.




					www.thejournal.ie
				




This will cause anyone to giggle, say a few curse words and just wonder what is going on.

I'm in a state of shock with the reasons given by the HSE and then repeated by our Minister for Health....


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

odyssey06 said:


> I'd be less concerned about AZ, at least they got 2 doses. In the hierarchy it's:
> Pfizer 2 dose
> Moderna 2 dose
> AZ 2 dose
> J&J 1 dose
> 
> I don't know if this will be sufficient for authorisation:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> J&J Covid vaccine recipients are better off getting Pfizer or Moderna booster, NIH study suggests
> 
> 
> The NIH study on "mixing and matching" Covid vaccines included more than 450 adults who received J&J's, Moderna's or Pfizer's shots.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnbc.com


Update Moderna got FDA approval for its booster today for over 65s and vulnerable people. 

On the other point where are the vaccines,  well another story I read was that Moderna haven't shipped any vaccines to poorer countries citing they have allegedly production constraints,  which is true they have 3rd parties producing , but so do all manufacturers. 

Moderna stock price popped today on the booster news, but it would when the majority of its debt and share is owned by Wall Street,  and they want to supply the US first and others like the EU next, not so much countries that need discounted vaccines.


----------



## seamus m

A testing pass antigen like Denmark was what was needed to suppress numbers because as we see the vaccinated can catch carry and pass covid.In Ireland we have also decided that close contacts of cases who have been vaccinated don't need test or to isolate .


----------



## Leo

seamus m said:


> A testing pass antigen like Denmark was what was needed to suppress numbers because as we see the vaccinated can catch carry and pass covid.In Ireland we have also decided that close contacts of cases who have been vaccinated don't need test or to isolate .


Perhaps have a read about how successful their mass testing strategy was. 

Denmark tested 8,000 people per 100,000 population daily, they have capacity for 500,000 tests per day with a mix of mandatory and voluntary testing. All that cost and disruption and they haven't been all that much more successful than us in repressing Covid.


----------



## seamus m

Leo said:


> Perhaps have a read about how successful their mass testing strategy was.
> 
> Denmark tested 8,000 people per 100,000 population daily, they have capacity for 500,000 tests per day with a mix of mandatory and voluntary testing. All that cost and disruption and they haven't been all that much more successful than us in repressing Covid.


In Denmark You needed a recent antigen to go out ,it has been way more successfully.Its numbers have stayed between 500 to 800 while fully open a long time before us .They also have been rid of masks for as long and covid is barely a topic of conversation anymore .No comparison really


----------



## odyssey06

seamus m said:


> In Denmark You needed a recent antigen to go out ,it has been way more successfully.Its numbers have stayed between 500 to 800 while fully open a long time before us .They also have been rid of masks for as long and covid is barely a topic of conversation anymore .No comparison really


Denmark required vaccination status or recent negative test (including antigen) to access indoor hospitality, otherwise you had to be outside.
In Ireland, you need to be vaccinated or else you have to be outside.

I really don't see how that would make a significant difference to cases. I'm not convinced about their robustness, nor am I saying they have no place.

I think the difference between Irish cases and Danish cases have deeper explanations than antigen testing, certainly one of them is that Denmark is bordered by Germany, whereas we have N Ireland.


----------



## Bronco Lane

I see that the over 60's may be approved shortly for a booster.  I got my second jab last June.   I would have thought that there should at least be a 6 month interval between jabs and boosters?


----------



## odyssey06

Bronco Lane said:


> I see that the over 60's may be approved shortly for a booster.  I got my second jab last June.   I would have thought that there should at least be a 6 month interval between jabs and boosters?


Good question - possibly by the time they get to you it might be 6 months gap.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Looks like J&J will get the nod from FDA next week for a second jab, but they cannot call it a booster. 

The story is on Fierce Pharma, can't link for some reason.


----------



## Leo

seamus m said:


> In Denmark You needed a recent antigen to go out ,it has been way more successfully.


Denmark have only had ~24% fewer cases than we've had per 100,000 population. Not sure I'd consider that way more successful given their €13M per day investment in testing, 

€13M per day is a chunk of money, but they've managed to achieve a cost per test an order of magnitude lower then ours. Government figures last year said cost to the state per test here was €200. You still think 350-400,000 tests a day is a good idea?


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

__





						Coronavirus (COVID-19) Infection Survey Technical Article: Impact of vaccination on testing positive in the UK - Office for National Statistics
					

The reduction in risk of testing positive for COVID-19 associated with vaccination overall and by different vaccine types using data from the Coronavirus (COVID-19) Infection Survey. Two time periods were analysed; when the Alpha variant was dominant in the UK (1 December 2020 to 16 May 2021)...



					www.ons.gov.uk
				




This is a bit of a read but the 4 main points at the start will give the findings, the main point for me is that the vaccines, both AZ and Pfizer, gave similar protection as any natural immunity generated by actually getting infected. 

The other point of interest was the vaccines ability to reduce transmission of the Alpha variant but they aren't so effective against Delta transmission,  which we are seeing now .


----------



## odyssey06

Paul O Mahoney said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coronavirus (COVID-19) Infection Survey Technical Article: Impact of vaccination on testing positive in the UK - Office for National Statistics
> 
> 
> The reduction in risk of testing positive for COVID-19 associated with vaccination overall and by different vaccine types using data from the Coronavirus (COVID-19) Infection Survey. Two time periods were analysed; when the Alpha variant was dominant in the UK (1 December 2020 to 16 May 2021)...
> 
> 
> 
> www.ons.gov.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is a bit of a read but the 4 main points at the start will give the findings, the main point for me is that the vaccines, both AZ and Pfizer, gave similar protection as any natural immunity generated by actually getting infected.
> 
> The other point of interest was the vaccines ability to reduce transmission of the Alpha variant but they aren't so effective against Delta transmission,  which we are seeing now .


Yes I read recently that with delta variant, virus loads are similar for vaccinated and unvaccinated for first 7 days. However after 7 days vaccinated viral load drops considerably. Also, that's for infected people. Haven't seen figures on whether vaccinated are less likely to be infected.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Positive trial results for Valneva Covid vaccine
					

Blood results show it gets the body to mount an immune response to fight coronavirus.



					www.bbc.com
				




Looks like another vaccine will be on the market soon, which is good news.


----------



## odyssey06

odyssey06 said:


> Yes I read recently that with delta variant, virus loads are similar for vaccinated and unvaccinated for first 7 days. However after 7 days vaccinated viral load drops considerably. Also, that's for infected people. Haven't seen figures on whether vaccinated are less likely to be infected.


Further to this, study suggests fully vaccinated are half as likely to become infected as unvaccinated from Delta variant:








						Fully Vaccinated Half As Likely To Catch Delta Covid Variant And Less Likely To Infect Others, Study Finds
					

There is a one in 13 chance unvaccinated people will get infected with Covid-19 if exposed to someone with the virus, the researchers found.




					www.forbes.com


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

odyssey06 said:


> Further to this, study suggests fully vaccinated are half as likely to become infected as unvaccinated from Delta variant:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fully Vaccinated Half As Likely To Catch Delta Covid Variant And Less Likely To Infect Others, Study Finds
> 
> 
> There is a one in 13 chance unvaccinated people will get infected with Covid-19 if exposed to someone with the virus, the researchers found.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.forbes.com


It goes to say also that both vaccines only give  49% protection against actually getting the Delta variant,  which is low if fact I would say very low.

Essentially, and I and others have said this we must keep our social distancing and general good health practices,  but my anecdotal evidence from a few pints yesterday, in a beer garden,  everyone were in large clusters. I can't see the genie put back into the bottle now........


----------



## odyssey06

Paul O Mahoney said:


> It goes to say also that both vaccines only give  49% protection against actually getting the Delta variant,  which is low if fact I would say very low.
> 
> Essentially, and I and others have said this we must keep our social distancing and general good health practices,  but my anecdotal evidence from a few pints yesterday, in a beer garden,  everyone were in large clusters. I can't see the genie put back into the bottle now........


Yes when it comes to the Delta variant, the protection against getting infected is poor but when it comes to making the difference between severe cases and ICU etc it still seems to be holding up well, albeit there are breakthrough infections.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

odyssey06 said:


> Yes when it comes to the Delta variant, the protection against getting infected is poor but when it comes to making the difference between severe cases and ICU etc it still seems to be holding up well, albeit there are breakthrough infections.


We are still only in infancy when it comes to understanding how this virus works,  if the flu season is harsh it could be a very long winter.


----------



## odyssey06

Paul O Mahoney said:


> We are still only in infancy when it comes to understanding how this virus works,  if the flu season is harsh it could be a very long winter.


We really need this to be a year where the flu vaccine is a good match for the strains in circulation... I don't think we'll avoid the flu like we did last winter.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Has anyone here already received the flu vaccine? who are fully vaccinated against covid.  And if so how was the experience , I used to get the flu vaccine but haven't in the last few years, might have to revisit that decision.


----------



## odyssey06

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Has anyone here already received the flu vaccine? who are fully vaccinated against covid.  And if so how was the experience , I used to get the flu vaccine but haven't in the last few years, might have to revisit that decision.



Family member got it at same time as their covid booster.

I got it as an independent vaccine, I get it most years, used to get it in the office through Laya. They'd do vaccine bliz days. 
This time arm was sore\tender for a few days, I had slight headache the next day.
I think try to get it at a time when you can take things easy \ normal routine, have an early night if you feel you need it ... don't get it if you are planning to travel \ big nights out \ DIY or anything like that.
You can get it in chemists although their slots book up fast, your GP might be better bet.


----------



## Marion

I’m fully vaccinated for Covid. (No booster yet)

My first flu vaccine experience was last year.

I got mine last Thursday. I went to my local pharmacy. Took 2 nurofen 30 minutes beforehand, I’m no martyr!

Very safe environment.  No queue.

Based in Tesco.

Marion


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Pfizer and Moderna to almost double Covid-19 vaccine sales in 2022
					

Two producers will control three-quarters of non-Chinese coronavirus vaccine market




					www.irishtimes.com
				




This is an interesting read but in the story lies the announcement that Curevac , spelling? have dropped their vaccine which surprised me as its clinical trials were as good as the main producers. 

If what they say is true and Pfizer/Biontech and Moderna will dominate this might not be a good thing. 

Moderna doesn't have its own production facilities and won't for a least half a decade,  Pfizer has streamed its production with drug substance being made here in Ireland,  Grange Castle, and 3 other sites in Europe but it too is at capacity and should something break well supply will decrease.

When Pfizer/Biontech got out of the stalls first there were 10 other runners having only 2 even to supply western countries will not only drive prices up but will leave poorer countries once again left behind.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

The FT is reporting today p.9 that Pfizers Booster is 95.6% effective against Covid according to Pfizer and Biontech. 

The study of 100k fully vaccinated people was giving the booster to 50% and a placebo to the other half. 
5 who got the booster contracted covid and 109 in the placebo group.

The trial took place during a period when Delta was prevalent., and the median time between 2 and booster dose was 11 months with a median follow up time of 2.5 months. 

The report goes on to mention various specialists and scientists are very happy with the results.

This is the first randomised study of any booster to date. Median age was 53 range 16 to 65plus and all subgroups were included.


----------



## Purple

Leo said:


> Government figures last year said cost to the state per test here was €200.


Leo, have you got a link to that?
I don't doubt that it's correct but it seems staggeringly high, even for our bloated and inefficient health service.

Edit: I found a reference from last year here. Private testers charge €90 and make a profit. Why does it cost the State more than twice as much when they have far higher economies of scale?


----------



## Leo

Purple said:


> Leo, have you got a link to that?
> I don't doubt that it's correct but it seems staggeringly high, even for our bloated and inefficient health service.
> 
> Edit: I found a reference from last year here. Private testers charge €90 and make a profit. Why does it cost the State more than twice as much when they have far higher economies of scale?


How much did they pay for the likes of Citywest hotel and all the other test centers around the country? Testing has been a nice little earner for those suitably qualified too, I'm sure the private testers are making less.


----------



## Purple

Leo said:


> How much did they pay for the likes of Citywest hotel and all the other test centers around the country? Testing has been a nice little earner for those suitably qualified too, I'm sure the private testers are making less.


Okay, if they are including the cost of the extra surge capacity that's a different matter but if the impression I got was that the cost of the test to the HSE is €200. 
We know how inefficient and dysfunctional the people who work in the HSE choose to be (despite the death and suffering their actions cause) but it's still staggering that they are 2-3 times less efficient that their private sector counterparts.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Purple said:


> Leo, have you got a link to that?
> I don't doubt that it's correct but it seems staggeringly high, even for our bloated and inefficient health service.
> 
> Edit: I found a reference from last year here. Private testers charge €90 and make a profit. Why does it cost the State more than twice as much when they have far higher economies of scale?


I'll hazard a guess the overhead in the public system is a lot higher,  I know retired paramedics a d ambulance drivers were contracted to deliver vaccines country wide, add the costs of renting say the Aviva,  Punchestown to name 2 wouldn't be cheap and the all the back office staff that were employed. 

The only private one I've seen at the airport is essentially a few porta cabins in an unused car park.


----------



## Purple

Paul O Mahoney said:


> I'll hazard a guess the overhead in the public system is a lot higher,  I know retired paramedics a d ambulance drivers were contracted to deliver vaccines country wide, add the costs of renting say the Aviva,  Punchestown to name 2 wouldn't be cheap and the all the back office staff that were employed.
> 
> The only private one I've seen at the airport is essentially a few porta cabins in an unused car park.


There's one on the Industrial Estate I work in that we use. If you are tested before 4pm they have the results to you by 7 the next morning. It's €90 for a walk-in or €70 corporate rate and they are making a good profit at that. 
Given that the State already has the labs and staff I don't understand how it's (at least) 2-3 times as expensive.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Purple said:


> There's one on the Industrial Estate I work in that we use. If you are tested before 4pm they have the results to you by 7 the next morning. It's €90 for a walk-in or €70 corporate rate and they are making a good profit at that.
> Given that the State already has the labs and staff I don't understand how it's (at least) 2-3 times as expensive.


Tiny operation in comparison, the Hse was tasked with testing 99% of the population and the hidden costs would enormous,  I did a back of envelope calculation last March 300/350 per jab popped out, and I would have been happy with €300 if that's what it cost. I think the cost per jab might be similar. 

I further this by saying as sure as ducks lay eggs €200 wouldn't be fully absorbed cost either,  I doubt the HSE has the capability of actually allocating costs on say a Activity Based Costing system or have all the Bill's in yet.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Sorry I've said vaccines in one post but I ran both figures, but with simple likely costs, I mean Citiwest must be 5000 a day including staff.


----------



## Purple

Paul O Mahoney said:


> I doubt the HSE has the capability of actually allocating costs on say a Activity Based Costing system or have all the Bill's in yet.


Good point. 
The old line 'If you can't measure, it you can't manage it' springs to mind.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

I wonder if the additional costs will ever be released,  then we could have a proper look. But I can almost predict now that staff costs from services whose staff were transferred to pandemic work will still be reported as before , in original departments. If that happens we'll never know the actual cost of the pandemic and all its consequences to the health system. 

Personally it's not something that I lie awake thinking about but it would be an exercise that they should do, and then when the next pandemic arrives they'll at least know what amount they need.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

This is good news


----------



## joe sod

I can't understand the delay in getting out the boosters when they have the vaccines and all the vaccine centres already set up. Is the government being influenced by calls to keep vaccines for the third world by the WHO. I know Niac have been sitting on their hands throughout , surely the government should rearrange Niac to get them moving.


----------



## tomdublin

After a successful initial vaccination campaign Ireland's COVID management seems to have lost the plot.  Booster shots keep being inexplicably delayed, androgen testing keeps being announced but never implemented at any meaningful scale, no vaccination cert checks in gyms, schools, universities and other obvious places, no mask-wearing in primary schools, etc etc.  On all these issues Ireland is at variance with virtually all other European countries and the infection numbers sadly reflect this.  I wonder which particular vested interests are pulling the strings here behind the scenes  - the private for-profit PCR testing industry perhaps?


----------



## michaelm

tomdublin said:


> no mask-wearing in schools


Masks are worn in secondary schools.


----------



## Purple

tomdublin said:


> I wonder which particular vested interests are pulling the strings here behind the scenes


Remember the old line 'Never assign to malice that which can be explained by incompetence'.


----------



## tomdublin

Purple said:


> Remember the old line 'Never assign to malice that which can be explained by incompetence'.


It could potentially be both


----------



## TrundleAlong

Is the booster vaccine more of the same mix of stuff as we got six months ago or has it been modified to take account of the Delta variant?


----------



## odyssey06

TrundleAlong said:


> Is the booster vaccine more of the same mix of stuff as we got six months ago or has it been modified to take account of the Delta variant?


yes it appears to be the same formlation, the only difference (in the US at least) is that the Moderna booster is half the dose of the original.


----------



## Purple

odyssey06 said:


> yes it appears to be the same formlation, the only difference (in the US at least) is that the Moderna booster is half the dose of the original.


I presume they'd need a new application for approval with the relevant regulatory agencies, both local (FDA) and international (EMA), if they changed the formulation.


----------



## tomdublin

I received the single shot J&J back in early summer and want to get a booster before visiting my elderly parents but I looks like I won't be able to get it for many weeks if not months.  The country is drowning in vaccines and the infrastructure to administer them is there, but due to a mixture of government incompetence and what looks like a couple of closet anti-vax "scientific" advisors everything has grind to a halt.  I'm sure I'm not the only one who finds this frustrating. Vaccination should be voluntary but those who want it should not have to face patronising and incompetent government obstructionnism.


----------



## Leo

tomdublin said:


> The country is drowning in vaccines and the infrastructure to administer them


Really, are we? You have a source for that?


----------



## Sunny

Leo said:


> Really, are we? You have a source for that?



Sitting on over 2m doses so enough currently have enough in stock to everyone due a booster a shot with extra supplies available if and when needed. If there are delays, it won't be down to vaccine availability and we have already seen the infrastructure that is in place with GP's/Pharmacists and centres. My elderly mother is already weeks behind people who got the same vaccine as her and at the same time. She has already been told from her GP it will be the middle of December which will be 7 months after the second dose. I don't know why the delay. 









						Q&A: Who is getting Covid-19 vaccine boosters and when will they get them?
					

More than 200,000 third doses of a targeted 1.4 million have been administered so far




					www.irishtimes.com


----------



## Leo

Sunny said:


> Sitting on over 2m doses so enough currently have enough in stock to everyone due a booster a shot with extra supplies available if and when needed. If there are delays, it won't be down to vaccine availability.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Q&A: Who is getting Covid-19 vaccine boosters and when will they get them?
> 
> 
> More than 200,000 third doses of a targeted 1.4 million have been administered so far
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.irishtimes.com


So we have enough with some spare, but not drowning in it as suggested by tom.

Continuing to roll out boosters in priority order makes sense.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Booster shot of Pfizer Covid jab increases protection to over 90%, new study finds
					

News from the Irish Examiner's team of reporters




					www.irishexaminer.com
				




Here is some information on how well the booster can work.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Q qtr w


----------



## Sunny

Leo said:


> So we have enough with some spare, but not drowning in it as suggested by tom.
> 
> Continuing to roll out boosters in priority order makes sense.



Well if we are to take the term drowning literally, then no we are drowning in vaccines but I think you know that he meant we have sufficient supply to give boosters to everyone which we do with existing supplies and available supply lines.

Rolling out boosters in priority makes sense when supplies were limited. The same argument doesn't really work this time when we have over 2m doeses sitting there. We seem to be changing the criteria every couple of weeks. One week it is over 70's, then two weeks later, it is over 60's, then 2 weeks later it is over 50's and in two weeks time, it will be over 40's.  

I understand the difficulties around allowing time between doses and all the rest but it is time to just accept that everyone is going to need the third shot and roll it out accordingly. They are saying 5m between the second dose and the booster but like I said my mother in her late 70's will be almost 7 months. There is no excuse for that at this stage.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Sunny said:


> Well if we are to take the term drowning literally, then no we are drowning in vaccines but I think you know that he meant we have sufficient supply to give boosters to everyone which we do with existing supplies and available supply lines.
> 
> Rolling out boosters in priority makes sense when supplies were limited. The same argument doesn't really work this time when we have over 2m doeses sitting there. We seem to be changing the criteria every couple of weeks. One week it is over 70's, then two weeks later, it is over 60's, then 2 weeks later it is over 50's and in two weeks time, it will be over 40's.
> 
> I understand the difficulties around allowing time between doses and all the rest but it is time to just accept that everyone is going to need the third shot and roll it out accordingly. They are saying 5m between the second dose and the booster but like I said my mother in her late 70's will be almost 7 months. There is no excuse for that at this stage.


Its 6 months min after 2nd dose, that's what approved by the regulators. My father got his 81, and it was just short of 7 months from his 2nd, Got it and pneumonia vaccine at the GP, Tuesday. 

I really don't know how it's going to be sped up, they are at capacity now.


----------



## Sunny

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Its 6 months min after 2nd dose, that's what approved by the regulators. My father got his 81, and it was just short of 7 months from his 2nd, Got it and pneumonia vaccine at the GP.
> 
> I really don't know how it's going to be sped up, they are at capacity now.



It's not. It's 5 months from NIAC now. 









						Why the gap between initial Covid vaccines and boosters is so important
					

UCC vaccinologist says timing between immunisations is really important and a longer gap is better




					www.irishexaminer.com
				




They are not giving the boosters at capacity now. The vaccine task force only got back together this week. They have capacity to do over 200k boosters a week but they are not doing that. I am sure there are valid reasons but we need to speed this up and just accept that everyone will need it.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

That story says " should " HSE is following the approval conditions of 6 months,  that was tested in Clinical trials. 

Well saying there not doesn't mean they aren't,  my fathers GP in Douglas is " flat out with vaccines " including flu.

They are still trying to get the unvaccinated done too 200,000 a week?


----------



## Sunny

Paul O Mahoney said:


> That story says " should " HSE is following the approval conditions of 6 months,  that was tested in Clinical trials.
> 
> Well saying there not doesn't mean they aren't,  my fathers GP in Douglas is " flat out with vaccines " including flu.
> 
> They are still trying to get the unvaccinated done too 200,000 a week?





			https://rcpi-live-cdn.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/NIAC_Recommendations-on-booster-doses-of-COVID-19-vaccine-for-healthcare-workers16-59-years-with-underlying-conditions-and-all-those-50-59-years.pdf.pdf
		


_*A minimum interval of five months may be used when necessary for operational reasons. Recipients of COVID-19 vaccine Janssen should receive an mRNA booster dose after an interval of three months.*_

6 months is the ideal gap but 5 months is approved.


----------



## Leo

Sunny said:


> Well if we are to take the term drowning literally, then no we are drowning in vaccines but I think you know that he meant we have sufficient supply


In fairness, tom is probably best placed to clarify, but I don't think anyone has ever used the expression 'drowning in' something to convey just enough. It's defined as overwhelming with an abundance, and is not synonymous with enough. 


Sunny said:


> We seem to be changing the criteria every couple of weeks. One week it is over 70's, then two weeks later, it is over 60's, then 2 weeks later it is over 50's and in two weeks time, it will be over 40's.


Is that not just phasing by in priority order? There isn't unlimited capacity to vaccinate and using the appointment model as it stands will be quicker then developing a new portal to allow younger people request a booster.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Sunny said:


> https://rcpi-live-cdn.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/NIAC_Recommendations-on-booster-doses-of-COVID-19-vaccine-for-healthcare-workers16-59-years-with-underlying-conditions-and-all-those-50-59-years.pdf.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> _*A minimum interval of five months may be used when necessary for operational reasons. Recipients of COVID-19 vaccine Janssen should receive an mRNA booster dose after an interval of three months.*_
> 
> 6 months is the ideal gap but 5 months is approved.


"may be used when necessary for operational reasons " that's for Health care workers or other emergency workers,  and other's who are vulnerable it certainly does not make it approved.


----------



## Sunny

Paul O Mahoney said:


> "may be used when necessary for operational reasons " that's for Health care workers or other emergency workers,  and certainly does not make it approved.



It does make the 5 month gap approved by NIAC. Here is the Minister Of Health

Health Minister Stephen Donnelly said yesterday: “Niac has recommended that a booster dose of Pfizer vaccine be offered to all those aged 60 to 79 who have completed their primary course with any Covid-19 vaccine.

“The booster dose should ideally be given six months – with a minimum interval of five months – following completion of the primary vaccination schedule.

But hey if you say something, it must be right......


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Whatever .......you should read what you posted


Sunny said:


> It does make the 5 month gap approved by NIAC. Here is the Minister Of Health
> 
> Health Minister Stephen Donnelly said yesterday: “Niac has recommended that a booster dose of Pfizer vaccine be offered to all those aged 60 to 79 who have completed their primary course with any Covid-19 vaccine.
> 
> “The booster dose should ideally be given six months – with a minimum interval of five months – following completion of the primary vaccination schedule.
> 
> But hey if you say something, it must be right..posted


----------



## Sunny

Leo said:


> In fairness, tom is probably best placed to clarify, but I don't think anyone has ever used the expression 'drowning in' something to convey just enough. It's defined as overwhelming with an abundance, and is not synonymous with enough.
> 
> Is that not just phasing by in priority order? There isn't unlimited capacity to vaccinate and using the appointment model as it stands will be quicker then developing a new portal to allow younger people request a booster.



This site really gets ridiculous sometimes with people arguing over the most pedantic things. Quoting definitions of drowning. If you want to take everything at it's literal meaning then go ahead. But you know exactly what he meant but you still decided to make a point of pulling him up on the use of the word 'drowning'. Anyway, that is for him to argue.



Paul O Mahoney said:


> Whatever .......you should read what you posted



'Whatever'??? Are you a 13 year old girl or something??

God forbid, you might actually find out something that you didn't know and just accept that. No easier to keep arguing that a 5 month gap is not approved despite me linking three sources to it. And I can keep linking if you like.... You on the other hand have linked nothing to show a 5 month gap is not approved. Unless you are saying that NIAC and the HSE are saying they can give a vaccine after 5 months if necessary but it is not approved??? 

So in your own words, Whatever.....


----------



## tomdublin

I didn't mean to suggest that people are *literally* drowning in vaccination fluid.  It was just a metaphor denoting that a lot of vaccines are available.  I hope this clarifies it.


----------



## Purple

There's plenty of vaccines available. There are plenty of people to give the vaccines. There's doesn't seem to be the capacity to track who has received them and who doesn't. 
We are back to the structural inefficiencies of the HSE.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Perhaps you should understand what approved/ approval and recommends mean.

NIAC do not approve vaccines,  they reccomend how the vaccine can be used.


----------



## Leo

Sunny said:


> This site really gets ridiculous sometimes with people arguing over the most pedantic things. Quoting definitions of drowning. If you want to take everything at it's literal meaning then go ahead.


This is a text based forum, if people use a phrase we must assume in the absence of other information that they use it as intended. 

The phrase 'drowning in' is only used to mean literally drowning in something, or to be overwhelmed with something. It is ridiculous to assume anything else was intended.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Sunny said:


> This site really gets ridiculous sometimes with people arguing over the most pedantic things. Quoting definitions of drowning. If you want to take everything at it's literal meaning then go ahead. But you know exactly what he meant but you still decided to make a point of pulling him up on the use of the word 'drowning'. Anyway, that is for him to argue.
> 
> 
> 
> 'Whatever'??? Are you a 13 year old girl or something??
> 
> God forbid, you might actually find out something that you didn't know and just accept that. No easier to keep arguing that a 5 month gap is not approved despite me linking three sources to it. And I can keep linking if you like.... You on the other hand have linked nothing to show a 5 month gap is not approved. Unless you are saying that NIAC and the HSE are saying they can give a vaccine after 5 months if necessary but it is not approved???
> 
> So in your own words, Whatever.....


On a train posts messy, but NIAC do not approve vaccines,  they " recommend " their use. And No they don't mean the same thing.

Vaccines are approved for use by the regulator,  EMA and FDA for use after 6 months. ( after clinical trials)

NIAC, " recommends " using them after 5 months,  despite the optimum time being 6 months as stated in your links and posts.

Why not use it at 4 months, 3 months? Where is the evidence that the vaccines are as effective at 5 months, we are not talking about a disprin here.

Edit,  I downloaded the report on but haven't read it yet as away. Its 31 pages long, and I will try and understand the recommendations to 5 months.

HSE has the final say anyway as they actually are rolling out the booster.


----------



## odyssey06

tomdublin said:


> I received the single shot J&J back in early summer and want to get a booster before visiting my elderly parents but I looks like I won't be able to get it for many weeks if not months.  The country is drowning in vaccines and the infrastructure to administer them is there, but due to a mixture of government incompetence and what looks like a couple of closet anti-vax "scientific" advisors everything has grind to a halt.  I'm sure I'm not the only one who finds this frustrating. Vaccination should be voluntary but those who want it should not have to face patronising and incompetent government obstructionnism.


I'm reading that the booster is recommended for J&J after 3 months so you might get it sooner hopefully.


----------



## Bluefin

odyssey06 said:


> I'm reading that the booster is recommended for J&J after 3 months so you might get it sooner hopefully.


I'll be over 5 months vaccinated this weekend... When is it likely that I'll be called for 3rd vaccine? 

Is it after 5 or 6 months.. I'm genuinely confused when it will be. 

Once there's walk ins... I'm straight there


----------



## odyssey06

Bluefin said:


> I'll be over 5 months vaccinated this weekend... When is it likely that I'll be called for 3rd vaccine?
> 
> Is it after 5 or 6 months.. I'm genuinely confused when it will be.
> 
> Once there's walk ins... I'm straight there


If Pfizer or Moderna its at least 5 months from your 2nd dose - then down to when they get to your age year.


----------



## tomdublin

odyssey06 said:


> If Pfizer or Moderna its at least 5 months from your 2nd dose - then down to when they get to your age year.



I hope you are right but where did you get this information from?  The official HSE vaccination information website still states the following:
"If you are under 60, and you are not a healthcare worker, you do not need a booster dose at this time. This includes people under 60 who got the single-dose Janssen vaccine."


----------



## odyssey06

tomdublin said:


> The official HSE vaccine information website still states this:
> 
> 
> 
> I hope you are right but where did you get this information from?  The official HSE vaccination information website still states the following:
> "If you are under 60, and you are not a healthcare worker, you do not need a booster dose at this time. This includes people under 60 who got the single-dose Janssen vaccine."


It'll be rolled out for over 50s just working its way through the bureaucracy...









						Covid vaccine booster rollout expected for over-50s | BreakingNews.ie
					

Ministers were given dire warnings on Monday night about the impact of the current wave on healthcare




					www.breakingnews.ie


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Bluefin said:


> I'll be over 5 months vaccinated this weekend... When is it likely that I'll be called for 3rd vaccine?
> 
> Is it after 5 or 6 months.. I'm genuinely confused when it will be.
> 
> Once there's walk ins... I'm straight there


What initial vaccine did you get ?
If  mRna 6 months after, the debate on whether it " should " be 5 months only started on Monday with the publication of a report by the NIAC proposing 5 months .

J&J vaccine isn't a booster it's a second shot, the FDA made this clear when they approved it.

AZ recipients will get Pfizer/ Biontech as their booster as we aren't administering AZ anymore. But the same timeline 6 months after 2nd jab.


----------



## odyssey06

Paul O Mahoney said:


> What initial vaccine did you get ?
> If  mRna 6 months after, the debate on whether it " should " be 5 months only started on Monday with the publication of a report by the NIAC proposing 5 months .
> 
> J&J vaccine isn't a booster it's a second shot, the FDA made this clear when they approved it.
> 
> AZ recipients will get Pfizer/ Biontech as their booster as we aren't administering AZ anymore. But the same timeline 6 months after 2nd jab.


Yeah family member is a HCW and got AZ originally... pfizer booster this week.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

If allowed to say this,  we struggled initially with the vaccines in the spring for multiple reasons,  but we rolled out the vaccines with superb efficiency.

We are facing another wave, but all of us who had the vaccines are protected to some degree might be 40% 50% who knows.

The issue that I see is that the message got lost,  vaccines weren't the panacea,  we had to temper our collective actions,  we needed to get the economy going again,  as did the rest of the world.

But here we are, and the adjustments that are needed to reverse the new wave aren't as arduous as the initial lockdowns etc.

If nobody got the booster but kept up the good practices of mask wearing etc we wouldn't have this wave.

This isn't going to solve itself by drugs alone it needs everyone to revert to sensible actions.

We would have taken 50% normality a year ago and perhaps that's what we need to accept now,  as the science will still patter on in the background and into next year, when new approaches will be developed that will hopefully save even more lives and protect those who need protection. 

We probably need to be grateful for what we have rather than wish to have, afterall its meant to be the season of good will. 

Its our hands to reverse this, the governments have done their bit,  but now we need to pick up and plough on.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

odyssey06 said:


> Yeah family member is a HCW and got AZ originally... pfizer booster this week.


Same in the UK all AZ will get the Pfizer booster,  best friend same age 54 got his Sunday


----------



## Bluefin

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Same in the UK all AZ will get the Pfizer booster,  best friend same age 54 got his Sunday


Pfizer... 

Can't wait to get booster.. 

I will continue following hand washing, masks, avoiding crowds etc even after getting 3rd vaccine... 

Will still have a quiet pint on a Wednesday afternoon or Thursday afternoon but will always avoid weekends socialising


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Bluefin said:


> Pfizer...
> 
> Can't wait to get booster..
> 
> I will continue following hand washing, masks, avoiding crowds etc even after getting 3rd vaccine...
> 
> Will still have a quiet pint on a Wednesday afternoon or Thursday afternoon but will always avoid weekends socialising


There ya go, that to me is the essence and if people were to do that we wouldn't be where we are.


----------



## odyssey06

Booster plan... doesn't look like over 50s who got single dose Johnson vaccine will be in line for booster until January?

Target for end of Dec:


Over 65 LTRC - 25,000
Over 80s - 161,000
70-79 - 336,000
60-69 - 475,000
HCW - 305,000
Total = 1,302,000 (+ the immunocompromised currently ~64k)


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1461351990118653953


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

odyssey06 said:


> Booster plan... doesn't look like over 50s who got single dose Johnson vaccine will be in line for booster until January?
> 
> Target for end of Dec:
> 
> 
> Over 65 LTRC - 25,000
> Over 80s - 161,000
> 70-79 - 336,000
> 60-69 - 475,000
> HCW - 305,000
> Total = 1,302,000 (+ the immunocompromised currently ~64k)
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1461351990118653953


I thought Coveney said earlier that 550k booster/3rd jabs were already administered, I wasn't listening that intently so might have gotten that wrong. 

If they were to achieve the above by year end that would be impressive.


----------



## Bluefin

Heard on the grapevine sone vaccine centres were allowing walkins due to excess staff and no shows.. 

Decided to chance my arm and head to my local centre which serves two country's .. Its closed and only opens up 3 days a week! 

What a joke... Before contemplating closing the hospitality sector down, the government should be doing all its power to role out booster jabs to all over 50s who are eligible.. 

I'm stunned really..


----------



## Sophrosyne

I hate to be critical regarding rollout, but there are certainly administrative mistakes.

A friend of mine who is highly immuno-compromised had his booster appointment in City West at 3pm today.

He was told to attend not more than 5 minutes beforehand and so he expected to be in and out in a short time period.

He arrived to find it was a walk-in centre with an enormous queue with no social distancing.

Not expecting to queue for more than an hour he was not dressed for the weather and his medical condition is such than he cannot stand for long periods.

He went home without his booster shot.

Further when he tried to reschedule on the HSE website, he received the message "There was an error processing your message".

The helpline telephone number was constantly engaged.

He could not understand why the queue wasn't divided into those with appointments and those without.


----------



## michaelm

Sophrosyne said:


> He could not understand why the queue wasn't divided into those with appointments and those without.


The Citywest queue was divided today and was geared to favour those with appointments over walk-ins.


----------



## tomdublin

Are there walk-in opportunities advertised or are people just chancing their arm?  I went from pharmacy to pharmacy asking if they are offering booster shots but none of them have been told anything by the government and they seemed quite frustrated. The vaccination programme seems to have degenerated into a mess.


----------



## odyssey06

tomdublin said:


> Are there walk-in opportunities advertised or are people just chancing their arm?  I went from pharmacy to pharmacy asking if they are offering booster shots but none of them have been told anything by the government and they seemed quite frustrated. The vaccination programme seems to have degenerated into a mess.


There are walk in slots for over 60s in MVCs like City West, Croke Park but as can be seen from previous posts capacity not planned well...
Seems like not only did they take the foot off the pedal but have forgotten where 4th and 5th gear is.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

odyssey06 said:


> There are walk in slots for over 60s in MVCs like City West, Croke Park but as can be seen from previous posts capacity not planned well...
> Seems like not only did they take the foot off the pedal but have forgotten where 4th and 5th gear is.


I'd say the news of another variant hasn't helped either. 
What I don't understand is they administered 600,000 plus and not a word from any quarter, now people swamp centres and it's all bad all of a sudden which clearly it's not. 

Increases in services take manpower and add a new variant and associated rush was always going to cause problems.

Let's give them a few days to sort things out .


----------



## Sunny

Why are they even doing walk in centres? They were only used at the end of the first vaccination campaign. There is no shortage of eligible people under the various cohorts to fill appointments. Apparently they still haven't offered it to people who had J&J vaccine despite evidence that the effectiveness of this vaccine diminishes dramatically after 1 month. I would have thought that we would have all the information needed from the first vaccination campaign about who needs to vaccinated and when. But there does seem to a sense of panic and chaos about the whole thing. Yes they are vaccinating large amounts but they are still not reaching levels seen during the first campaign despite no supply issues and I would be afraid that they have taken their eye off the ball. Hopefully now that the task force are back in charge, we will begin to see less and less of the chaos seen so far and more of a repeat of the first rollout.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Covid: Pfizer and Moderna jabs give best overall boost, UK trial finds
					

Researchers say there are signs the boosters would still offer protection against new variant Omicron.



					www.bbc.com
				




This is a story from the BBC about the effectiveness of the boosters, obviously the study was carried out with the Delta variant, but it's not bad news, which is a change in the narrative.


----------



## Bronco Lane

How long does it take for the Booster jab to take effect?   I think it was two weeks for the first two jabs.....is the booster any quicker?


----------



## odyssey06

Bronco Lane said:


> How long does it take for the Booster jab to take effect?   I think it was two weeks for the first two jabs.....is the booster any quicker?


Its a bit uncertain... starts kicking in after 1 week but 2 weeks to be sure:
The HSE said that clinical studies show boosters are very effective at preventing illness 1-2 weeks after they are administered. 









						Reader Q&A: Your questions on Covid-19 vaccine boosters answered
					

The Covid-19 booster vaccine rollout is ongoing in Ireland at the moment.




					www.thejournal.ie


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

odyssey06 said:


> Its a bit uncertain... starts kicking in after 1 week but 2 weeks to be sure:
> The HSE said that clinical studies show boosters are very effective at preventing illness 1-2 weeks after they are administered.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Reader Q&A: Your questions on Covid-19 vaccine boosters answered
> 
> 
> The Covid-19 booster vaccine rollout is ongoing in Ireland at the moment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thejournal.ie


Just to add to this, the increased protection offered depends on the level of antibodies already present in the person's immune system.
Additionally the level of protection differs on the type of booster you get and what vaccines you originally got.
For example 2 AZ then Pfizer booster seems to increase antibodies by x25, Pfizer 2 leads to x8 increase.
Moderna apparently gives x32 increase and the UK are administering half doses.

These are based on boosters given after 3 months and effects noted after one month.

Like everything its unknown but each person is unique and the strength or weakness of immune systems will dictate the response to the booster, but its known that they do work well and the study that found these figures was conducted in the UK with 3000 participants.

Edit, I would imagine,  and I'm no expert , that once you get a booster the effects would be quick as your immune system is already used to dealing with the vaccine and having more will ignite your immune system to work harder.


----------



## Bronco Lane

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Moderna apparently gives x32 increase and the UK are administering half doses.


I hope to get my booster this week.   Unfortunately, I do not know if I will be getting the Pfizer or Moderna.  (Originally got 2 x AZ)

The UK giving half doses of Moderna.  Is it too much to be given a full dose or is it because they are giving them out after 3 months.  Mine will be after 5 months.....maybe I should only be getting a .75% dose?


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Bronco Lane said:


> I hope to get my booster this week.   Unfortunately, I do not know if I will be getting the Pfizer or Moderna.  (Originally got 2 x AZ)
> 
> The UK giving half doses of Moderna.  Is it too much to be given a full dose or is it because they are giving them out after 3 months.  Mine will be after 5 months.....maybe I should only be getting a .75% dose?


I only cited the UK as it was where the study was conducted and published. 

You'll probably get Pfizer and hopefully get x28 times boost. 

I'd say they are giving 50% to deliver more and more quickly.


----------



## Wiresandmore

One significant outlier in our approach is that the HSE are saying if you were vaccinated and had Covid, to wait 6 months for the booster. As far as I can see other countries are not doing the same thing (in the UK, they just ask if you are well and through any side-effects). With Omicron in circulation, that’s a long wait for the booster - I hope they re-think this as we must have a sizeable number of people in this category.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Wiresandmore said:


> One significant outlier in our approach is that the HSE are saying if you were vaccinated and had Covid, to wait 6 months for the booster. As far as I can see other countries are not doing the same thing (in the UK, they just ask if you are well and through any side-effects). With Omicron in circulation, that’s a long wait for the booster - I hope they re-think this as we must have a sizeable number of people in this category.


Well the booster is approved for use after 6 months there is advice from NIAC that this should be 5 months, the HSE hasn't afaik,  implemented that yet, although I did see that it must be at least 5 months since your second jab.

To be honest I find it confusing to what is the rule, is here.

The UK have their own regulations too, so they can do what they see fit.

Some UK papers are reporting that the antiviral pill will be available before Christmas, how true that is ,I dunno


----------



## Bluefin

5 months from your second vaccine.. The booster jabs are pfizer. I got mine last week from vaccination centre as a walk in. I Got called by local chemist to pop in for vaccine at the weekend.. I only put my name down a week earlier. Be proactive and don't wait to be called if you are 5 months passed second jab


----------



## Wiresandmore

Yes, but if you have had Covid post vaccine, they are saying wait 6 months after your positive test - so that can mean a year after your second jab before your booster. Seems very long to me…..


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Wiresandmore said:


> Yes, but if you have had Covid post vaccine, they are saying wait 6 months after your positive test - so that can mean a year after your second jab before your booster. Seems very long to me…..


This is because having Covid creates a natural immunity. HIQA said natural immunity lasts for 9 months,  most international figures are 6 to 9 months.

But the new variant can and does infect people who had covid again,  I would say that once we know the full extent of Omicron protocols might change.  Now they are simply following the known science.


----------



## Bronco Lane

Got my booster yesterday at a walk in at Belfield UCD.  Arrived a half hour before opening and about 100 people ahead of me. It was cold as we had to queue outside. Vaccination centre in the downstairs section of the Main Restaurant.   It used to be in the O'Reilly Hall.

Many "Karens" tried to jump the queue by walking up to the top. Nobody was having any of it.  The look on the faces of the entitled was priceless when they were told to go to the back of the queue.  Unfortunately there was only one official tending to the outside queue. The centre was open for walk ins aged between 60 and 69, yet there were many under the age of 60.....these were questioned just as you entered the building.....

There was a smaller queue for those with appointments. Many people tried to join this queue but were asked for proof of their appointment. It was great to see many being sent to the back of the main queue that now numbered about 300.

An older lady in front of me had her filthy dirty mask below her nose the whole time she was there.  She was told to cover her nose and was given a clean mask.

It took us an hour and ten minutes from starting to queue to leaving the building.

There was no social distancing, no wiping of seats where you sat for 15 minutes after. 

There was not much room in this building, O'Reilly Hall would be more suitable.  On leaving I would say that there were hundreds queuing all around the Campus.


----------



## joer

I got my booster last Wednesday at a walk in clinic. I was due to get it on that day , but no word from HSE . It was very well managed as our vaccine certs were checked while in the queue and people who were there before their due date were told sorry but not today. Everyone wiped their seats down before they left after the fifteen minute wait . It was two hours from the time I joined the queue to the time I was out . When I was leaving the queue was three times as long. Great to see so many people there to avail of it. And still no word from the HSE.  .


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Bronco Lane said:


> Got my booster yesterday at a walk in at Belfield UCD.  Arrived a half hour before opening and about 100 people ahead of me. It was cold as we had to queue outside. Vaccination centre in the downstairs section of the Main Restaurant.   It used to be in the O'Reilly Hall.
> 
> Many "Karens" tried to jump the queue by walking up to the top. Nobody was having any of it.  The look on the faces of the entitled was priceless when they were told to go to the back of the queue.  Unfortunately there was only one official tending to the outside queue. The centre was open for walk ins aged between 60 and 69, yet there were many under the age of 60.....these were questioned just as you entered the building.....
> 
> There was a smaller queue for those with appointments. Many people tried to join this queue but were asked for proof of their appointment. It was great to see many being sent to the back of the main queue that now numbered about 300.
> 
> An older lady in front of me had her filthy dirty mask below her nose the whole time she was there.  She was told to cover her nose and was given a clean mask.
> 
> It took us an hour and ten minutes from starting to queue to leaving the building.
> 
> There was no social distancing, no wiping of seats where you sat for 15 minutes after.
> 
> There was not much room in this building, O'Reilly Hall would be more suitable.  On leaving I would say that there were hundreds queuing all around the Campus.


Sounds like the people working in these centres are dealing with a lot.


----------



## tomdublin

Bronco Lane said:


> Many "Karens" tried to jump the queue by walking up to the top


I think the pandemic had a Karen breeding effect, I see them everywhere these days and they are a real blight.


----------



## Sunny

Micheal Martin today saying people are not availing of the boosters as fast as they would like:

Nov 22-28: 208,000 booster appointments but only 80,000 turned up

Nov 29-Dec 05: 180,000 appointments but only 93,000 turned up

There is something not right here considering people are talking about 2 hour queues for walk ins and they are doing over 200,000 boosters a week. A lot of stories about people who can't cancel their appointment but that can't explain a 50% turn out for appointments.


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## michaelm

You'd have to imaging that a lot of the no-shows availed of a walk-in booster and the system can't keep up (probably built on Access from Office XP).


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## Leo

Sunny said:


> A lot of stories about people who can't cancel their appointment but that can't explain a 50% turn out for appointments.


I heard of problems initially with appointment cancellations alright, you had to phone and the number provided was the general info hotline that cut you off after being on hold for a certain period. They've since separated that out and I believe the system was updated to handle replies to request an alternative time. Perhaps next step is to ask people to confirm they intend to take up the appointment.


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## Paul O Mahoney

Sunny said:


> Micheal Martin today saying people are not availing of the boosters as fast as they would like.


And yet they've delivered over a million doses? 
It doesn't make sense.


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## Sophrosyne

Sunny said:


> Micheal Martin today saying people are not availing of the boosters as fast as they would like:
> 
> Nov 22-28: 208,000 booster appointments but only 80,000 turned up
> 
> Nov 29-Dec 05: 180,000 appointments but only 93,000 turned up



I think he was referring to those with appointments.

For instance, last Monday 6th, according to Ireland's data hub, 513 immuno-compromised booster doses were administered and 18,719 other booster doses.

I think large centres are putting the immuno-compromised off. Perhaps those who most need the booster shots cannot get to the centres.

I thought pharmacies were to deliver booster shots. Has this been abandoned?


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## Leo

Sophrosyne said:


> I thought pharmacies were to deliver booster shots. Has this been abandoned?


No, it's ongoing.


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## Paul O Mahoney

Further up this thread Odyessey06 posted the plan 1.32m by the end of Dec , today the 7th we have 1m already done, the run rate would indicate they would do that 1.3 by next week or Christmas week.

If that many cancelled wouldn't the 1m be more like 800k .

Someone isn't recording properly


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## odyssey06

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Further up this thread Odyessey06 posted the plan 1.32m by the end of Dec , today the 7th we have 1m already done, the run rate would indicate they would do that 1.3 by next week or Christmas week.
> 
> If that many cancelled wouldn't the 1m be more like 800k .
> 
> Someone isn't recording properly


Theres lots of reports on social media of people getting multiple appointments... or people unable to cancel who got booster as HCW or as walk in etc

People phoned up trying to cancel then cut off by system after on hold for 40 mins as noted earlier.

Its hard to say therefore how many missed appointments are people refusing booster v scheduling and recording issues. Michael Martin seems to be presenting it as refusals but on what basis?


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## Paul O Mahoney

odyssey06 said:


> Theres lots of reports on social media of people getting multiple appointments... or people unable to cancel who got booster as HCW or as walk in etc
> 
> People phoned up trying to cancel then cut off by system after on hold for 40 mins as noted earlier.
> 
> Its hard to say therefore how many missed appointments are people refusing booster v scheduling and recording issues. Michael Martin seems to be presenting it as refusals but on what basis?


I'll have a look at the data from ECDC and see what has actually been administered to each cohort based on the figures they published in your post.

This has to be admin and MM not understanding what the figures represent.


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## odyssey06

Paul O Mahoney said:


> I'll have a look at the data from ECDC and see what has actually been administered to each cohort based on the figures they published in your post.
> 
> This has to be admin and MM not understanding what the figures represent.



You have the leader of the country saying people don't want the booster... and this happens.
He needs to get on top of this, for himself and the country.

THE HSE HAS advised people not to attend a walk-in Covid-19 booster clinic for those aged 50 to 69 this morning as more than 200 people queued to receive a jab. 








						'It's a little bit shambolic': Hundreds turned away after two Dublin walk-in centres reach capacity
					

People were turned away from two Dublin booster walk-in centres this morning after the HSE sent texts out to people last night.




					www.thejournal.ie


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## Purple

odyssey06 said:


> You have the leader of the country saying people don't want the booster... and this happens.
> He needs to get on top of this, for himself and the country.


Michael martin is a nice man but he's no Leo Varadkar.


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## Sunny

I don't understand the walk in's when there must be enough people to fill appointment slots. Walk in's were fine towards the end of the campaign when the majority were done but it does seem to be leading to unacceptable delays at centres. People can already make appointments at GP's and Pharmacies if they wish. Open it up to the other age cohorts and give appointments to everyone if they are struggling to fill capacity. 

I am not hearing any stories about people with two jobs being hesitant about the booster so something is not working. Of course, Leo coming out yesterday and talking about a fourth jab doesn't help either!

To me, they seem to be struggling with data about who needs the jab and who has had the jab. I know the fact that people who have covid since the second jab are not eligible for six months after diagnosis complicates things but they did such a good job with the first rollout, it is a shame that IT/Admin issues seems to causing them such problems this time.


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## odyssey06

Sunny said:


> I don't understand the walk in's when there must be enough people to fill appointment slots. Walk in's were fine towards the end of the campaign when the majority were done but it does seem to be leading to unacceptable delays at centres. People can already make appointments at GP's and Pharmacies if they wish. Open it up to the other age cohorts and give appointments to everyone if they are struggling to fill capacity.
> 
> I am not hearing any stories about people with two jobs being hesitant about the booster so something is not working. Of course, Leo coming out yesterday and talking about a fourth jab doesn't help either!
> 
> To me, they seem to be struggling with data about who needs the jab and who has had the jab. I know the fact that people who have covid since the second jab are not eligible for six months after diagnosis complicates things but they did such a good job with the first rollout, it is a shame that IT/Admin issues seems to causing them such problems this time.


There is something dysfunctional with the HSE system\operation when it comes to boosters, I think that's why they are kicking to touch with 'walk ins' and relying on GPs and pharmacies.
They already have a booking system for tests, just use that for booking vaccine jab.

MM needs to be hammering the HSE about this, instead he seems to have accepted the HSE explanation of reluctance when it's obvious there is a fundamental systems issue.


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## Paul O Mahoney

Lads I've spent days trying to understand the data, and it's a mess,  but I'll try again later after the latest update. 

My wife got her notification yesterday 50+but she's getting hers in Pfizer again, shes been trying to contact them to tell them to cancel. No joy yet. And they offered her Moderna. 

They need to stop these walk ins, but they are administering over 190,000 a week and I wonder how the figures would be if they did?


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## Paul O Mahoney

Purple said:


> Michael martin is a nice man but he's no Leo Varadkar.


Hes a Nemo Rangers Man, not the definition of nice.


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## Purple

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Hes a Nemo Rangers Man, not the definition of nice.


Nemo Rangers, a front runner for the fanciest clubhouse in Ireland award.


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## odyssey06

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Lads I've spent days trying to understand the data, and it's a mess,  but I'll try again later after the latest update.
> 
> My wife got her notification yesterday 50+but she's getting hers in Pfizer again, shes been trying to contact them to tell them to cancel. No joy yet. And they offered her Moderna.
> 
> They need to stop these walk ins, but they are administering over 190,000 a week and I wonder how the figures would be if they did?


How many of them are in HSE clinics versus hospital HCWs, GPs, pharmacies etc I wonder....


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## joer

In my case, my doctor was only giving boosters to over 70s and suggested I go to the walk in clinic , which I was glad to do. Does the HSE know if a person has been to a walk in clinic because I would have been due my booster on Wed 1st of Dec. I got the booster on the 2nd and have had no word from the HSE about my booster. Perhaps they can know from my mobile number or pps number..


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## Paul O Mahoney

odyssey06 said:


> How many of them are in HSE clinics versus hospital HCWs, GPs, pharmacies etc I wonder....


They don't break that down, its total figures by week,  which is now updated twice weekly.


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## Sunny

There are now stories about people over 60 getting texts from the HSE telling them to attend a walk in or go to a pharmacy instead of offering an actual appointment. Someone needs to get a handle on this very quickly. Unbelievable that Martin went into the Dail and made a statement like he did without actually knowing the details. Everyone here and every single journalist looked at those figures and said 'hold on'. Him and all his highly paid advisors and Department Heads looked at the figures and said people weren't coming forward.


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## joer

Giving the size of the crowd when I was there ,there were a hell of a lot of people who it seemed hadn't got their word from HSE either because a lot were in their 60s 
If nothing else the walk in clinics are getting through a lot of people who want to get their booster.


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## homeboy

At least when you have an appointment you have an appointment!

Walk in clinics now catering to 50s as well as 60s, hence people being turned away due to numbers turning up.

Also, and I quote HSE.............."Clinics can be changed at short notice................"

Politicians and media need to IMMEDIATELY look at this situation.


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## Paul O Mahoney

Last week 93000, through HSE channels 70,000 through GPs and 25000 through pharmacies. According to Irish Times


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## Sophrosyne

Sunny said:


> I don't understand the walk in's when there must be enough people to fill appointment slots. Walk in's were fine towards the end of the campaign when the majority were done but it does seem to be leading to unacceptable delays at centres. People can already make appointments at GP's and Pharmacies if they wish. Open it up to the other age cohorts and give appointments to everyone if they are struggling to fill capacity.


Neither do I.
I cancelled my appointment in a walk-in centre and instead registered for a booster jab in a local pharmacy.

The HSE doesn't make it easy to reschedule.

The appointment notification text advises:
"If you need to reschedule this appointment, reply "New" to this text giving at least 24-hours notice".

I did and received the message:
"There was an error processing your message".
I checked with others who tried to reschedule and they all received the same message.

That's probably the reason the helpline is so busy.

I advised the helpline operator about this, who said she would pass it on to the IT section.


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## Purple

In fairness to the HSE a million booster shots have been given out so far. Not bad.


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## Paul O Mahoney

A few figures.
The data from the ECDC now appear to be updated twice weekly,  so these will include half of this week.  Week 49.

Total booster 1069302
They have administered almost 200k in week 48 and 47.

The data is difficult to make sense of as LTRC and HCW are also recorded under age groups.

So, I'll give the age groups first as I have reconciled those.

18-24      -         22,151

25-49       -     192,765

50-59      -      154,361

60-69       -     243,995

70-79       -     294,389

80+           -     161,641

Total            1,069,302

HCW are recorded under age groups above, but the data does further categorise them, same with LTRC .

Assuming they imputed the figures correctly

LTRC 29,461
HCW 220,344

There is no classification for people with underlying health problems but taking HCW, LTRC ,60 to 80+ out of the total, 119,472 people younger than 50 received the 3rd dose.

The population figures of each category from Odyssey06 post further up bare little resemblance to what's on the ECDC data.
I would also say that this data might not be complete due to the way the HSE is recording/not recording.

But bottom line,  over 1m administered and weekly average 190k over the last few weeks


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## valery

In France recently, I received my booster vaccine. 
No appointment needed, just photo ID (my passport) showing I fitted the age profile they were vaccinating, and details of previous vaccines done In Ireland (name of vaccine and date given). A clerk created my file, a doctor asked some health questions, a nurse administer the vaccine.  After a rest period of 15 mins I was handed my covid pass details and QR code and told I could go.  30 mins start to finish.  I scanned the QR code, it showed “invalid” for 7 days.  After that it scanned as valid.
Have to hand it to the French, their Health System is very efficient.


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## Bluefin

Sitting here in a pub in kilkenny and every customer that comes into the pub is asked for their Covid19 cert and is scanned before they can sit down and served with no additional staff or drama. Some premises are behaving impeccable...


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## Sophrosyne

An intimate little Italian restaurant that we had be meaning to go to for years.

No masks no entry. Covid certs scanned, proof of identification required – driver’s licence, passport, etc.

Tables requisite distance apart. A simple & charming covered outdoor space with copious patio heaters, delicious food & wine.

We might have been in the Med.


Compared to our usual weekly, well-known & well-regarded epicurean haunt - masks wearing required but not enforced. Tables at pre-COVID spacing. No scanning of COVID certs, just required mobile phone of one of the party. Inadequate ventilation.

Since the first lockdown we went with our instincts and opted for the former.

We felt that if the latter could not be bothered to take health guidelines in a pandemic seriously, what did it say about its adherence to _normal _restaurant rules & guidance to protect customers.


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## Paul O Mahoney

I would say that 33% of the people getting vaccinated in Citiwest today were 12-16 years old, all with a parent which probably made the queue look bigger. 

Appointments were not segregated from us turning up types which perhaps should be looked at.


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## Firefly

Got mine in Cork City Hall last night. It was busy, but was in & out in about 30 mins or so.


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## odyssey06

HSE trialling self booking system for some MVCs 


			https://mobile.twitter.com/HSELive/status/1473322862459211781


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## odyssey06

Boosters will be available from next Wednesday for those aged 30-39 and those who received Janssen (ages 16-29) boosters.









						Boosters for over-30s from next week, first doses for children 5-11 from next month
					

People aged 16 to 29 who received the Janssen vaccine will be entitled to a booster next week.




					www.thejournal.ie


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## Paul O Mahoney

'Too early' for fourth vaccine for general population
					

The European Centre for Disease Control and the European Medicines Agency's Covid-19 task force has concluded that it is too early to consider using a fourth dose of mRNA Covid-19 vaccines in the general population.




					www.rte.ie
				




So we are now preparing for the 4th round. I personally think this is needed sooner rather than later to protect those who are very vulnerable. 

Sub note,  bus journeys today only the older people were masked up and I include myself,  this morning approx 20 on bus 2 of us with masks, and hand sanitizer. 

Has anyone learnt anything in the last 24 months?


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## Paul O Mahoney

Pfizers strategy,  and this is public knowledge,  is to combine the flu shot with the vaccine using mRNA protocol so it becomes an annual/bi annual shot.

I have an issue with this in that we really don't know where Covid is going,  it might disappear or it might morph into something that can't be " mRNA 'd" and old fashioned vaccines continue to do what they do extremely well. 

Also we really don't know anything how or what  mRNA does or doesn't do to the immune system, long term.

 Don't get me wrong its fantastic technology and might cure cancer, diabetes, dementia.......and of course it has given the " western  world " the route back to " normality ".

Just my thoughts,  the vaccines work but sometimes it's good to scrutinise a bit more.

I should add my parents can't wait 82, 78 .


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## odyssey06

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Pfizers strategy,  and this is public knowledge,  is to combine the flu shot with the vaccine using mRNA protocol so it becomes an annual/bi annual shot.
> 
> I have an issue with this in that we really don't know where Covid is going,  it might disappear or it might morph into something that can't be " mRNA 'd" and old fashioned vaccines continue to do what they do extremely well.
> 
> Also we really don't know anything how or what  mRNA does or doesn't do to the immune system, long term.
> 
> Don't get me wrong its fantastic technology and might cure cancer, diabetes, dementia.......and of course it has given the " western  world " the route back to " normality ".
> 
> Just my thoughts,  the vaccines work but sometimes it's good to scrutinise a bit more.
> 
> I should add my parents can't wait 82, 78 .


tbh I wouldn't be so keen on getting the two in one shot. They side effects can put a bit of a strain on the system... has the combi shot been trialled to see if the side effects are worse?


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## Paul O Mahoney

odyssey06 said:


> tbh I wouldn't be so keen on getting the two in one shot. They side effects can put a bit of a strain on the system... has the combi shot been trialled to see if the side effects are worse?


Great question,  apparently the trials are in the pipe already.  This again has been reported widely,  we all needed a break and I really couldn't be arsed posting what ifs.


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## Paul O Mahoney

https://www.bizjournals.com/washington/news/2022/04/20/novavax-covid-flu-combination-vaccine-advancing.html?ana=yahoo
		


Don't know if I've linked this correctly, but the story is interesting as now Novavax are also trialling a combo eventhough it hasn't recieved FDA approval for its covid vaccine yet.

I would imagine that over the coming years this space will become more congested with all the majors developing and deploying their " unique " version.

Meanwhile the poorer countries still struggle with accessing any vaccines of use,for covid or most other preventable diseases.


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## Paul O Mahoney

Over-65s urged to book second Covid booster
					

People aged 65 and over and immunocompromised people aged 12 and over are being encouraged to avail of a second Covid-19 booster vaccine.




					www.rte.ie
				




We might need to get used to this going foward.


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