# Disciplinary process over employees slagging  colleagues on private WhatsApp group



## Ladyjuicy08 (5 Dec 2018)

A group from work have a private what app group that's only used outside of working hours on our personal phones. We were doing a gentle bit of slagging on it about someone from work who goes around slagging everybody off to their face & behind their backs.Someone from group screenshot it brought it to management attention Have work the right to bring a grievance even though company name wasn't mentioned only this person once and was a private group on our personal time and phones


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## Sophrosyne (5 Dec 2018)

Ladyjuicy08 said:


> Have work the right to bring a grievance even though company name wasn't mentioned only this person once and was a private group on our personal time and phones



If it were me, I would disengage from the WhatsAp group.

Employers have duties, which can extend beyond the workplace. See the following:

In _McCamley v Dublin Bus_, the complainant, Mr McCamley, was an employee of Dublin Bus and claimed that he had been harassed and victimised on the grounds of religion and race. The alleged harassment involved a series of communications via mobile phone, email and on Facebook from a number of individuals, including an employee of Dublin Bus. Section 14A(1) of the Irish Employment Equality Acts covers harassment against an employee at the place where the employee is employed or otherwise in the course of that employee’s employment. 

The Labour Court considered this concept in McCamley and determined that the test in harassment claims under the Employment Equality Acts is not akin to vicarious liability at common law:

_*“Unlike vicarious liability, in the case of harassment committed by an employee on another employee there is no requirement to show that the wrongdoer was acting in the course, or within the scope, of his or her employment.* *Hence, it matters not that the harasser was off duty or at home when he posted the offending material.* It is, however, essential that the victim suffered the harassment in the course of his or her employment.”_

The Court noted that the Employment Equality Act 1998 (Code of Practice) (Harassment) Order 2012 refers to non-workplace harassment as follows:

_“The scope of the sexual harassment and harassment provisions extend beyond the workplace, for example to conferences and training that occur outside the workplace. It may also extend to work-related social events.”_

The Court found that:

_“There must, however, be some discernible connection between the harassment and the victim's employment in the sense that the victim suffered the harmful effects of the harassment while he or she was engaged in activity authorised by the employer.” _

The Court concluded that the purpose and effect of the offending comments was to disparage and ridicule Mr McCamley in the eyes of his work colleagues. The comments were directed at Mr McCamley, and intended to impact on him, in his capacity as a worker representative for employees of Dublin Bus, a role which he was authorised to perform in the course of his employment.

On this basis, the posting of the offending comments constituted harassment within the meaning of section 14A(1) of the Employment Equality Acts. *However, Dublin Bus was able to rely of the defence provided by section 14A(2) of the Act, as the company had a policy against harassment at work and action was taken against the harasser under the disciplinary process.*

* The Bellman and McCamley decisions show that an employer can be liable for inappropriate conduct that occurs outside of the work place.* This may result in litigation under common law principles of vicarious liability or under the Employment Equality Acts. Each case will need to be assessed on its own merits to determine whether liability arises and applying the established principles of the Courts in each area of law.

* The McCamley decision is also particularly interesting as it shows how an employer can mitigate against the risks associated with an issue that is arises commonly in practice – potential harassment on social media - *by ensuring that there is an appropriate dignity at work policy in place and* taking action to deal with any complaints.*


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## Ladyjuicy08 (5 Dec 2018)

Thanks 

The group has been disbanded but the employee has put a complaint in against all the members claiming bullying (even though he's said and done worse but apparently that doesn't matter as no-one complained)
Is there no recourse of privacy for the person who screenshot it in the first place 
All it was was a picture of someone saying it looks like this person


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## Sophrosyne (6 Dec 2018)

Ladyjuicy08 said:


> Is there no recourse of privacy for the person who screenshot it in the first place



That person screenshot something from the WhatsApp group *and brought it to management attention.*

Somehow the subject of the "gentle bit of slagging" found out.

???


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## Tebbit (6 Dec 2018)

This IS bullying!   I for one hope you and your friends learn a valuable lesson.  Is this "a group from work"  - everyone minus one????     
It's good that someone in the group had the cop on to say this isn't ok.  The person was was the subject of that slagging probably feels awful right now.  Perhaps a personal apology from you might help - it would be better than doing nothing.


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## Ladyjuicy08 (6 Dec 2018)

Tebbit said:


> This IS bullying!   I for one hope you and your friends learn a valuable lesson.  Is this "a group from work"  - everyone minus one????
> It's good that someone in the group had the cop on to say this isn't ok.  The person was was the subject of that slagging probably feels awful right now.  Perhaps a personal apology from you might help - it would be better than doing nothing.


 Only few people in group and this guy is the same guy who slags everyone of at work including digs at a girl over the size of her breast/ sexuality but she never complained about it,no-one ever complains about him as we all just take it as 'banter.


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## TrundleAlong (6 Dec 2018)

Ladyjuicy08 said:


> Only few people in group and this guy is the same guy who slags everyone of at work including digs at a girl over the size of her breast/ sexuality but she never complained about it,no-one ever complains about him as we all just take it as 'banter.


 So what you saw as banter is now going to turn in to a bullying/sexual harassment accusation against him?


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## Ladyjuicy08 (6 Dec 2018)

No I'm saying that we never complained about him even if a lot of people didn't like what he was saying so it's a bit rich for him to pull the bullying card over 1 meme from a private group


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## Ladyjuicy08 (6 Dec 2018)

Sophrosyne said:


> That person screenshot something from the WhatsApp group *and brought it to management attention.*
> 
> Somehow the subject of the "gentle bit of slagging" found out.
> 
> ...



Sorry yes a member of group screenshot the conversation and brought it to the attention of the person who was mentioned


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## Purple (6 Dec 2018)

Ladyjuicy08 said:


> Only few people in group and this guy is the same guy who slags everyone of at work including digs at a girl over the size of her breast/ sexuality but she never complained about it,no-one ever complains about him as we all just take it as 'banter.


If it was getting to her or other people they should have complained. Don't blame him for doing something you or others should have done.
It's one thing for a group of people to slag someone in the pub or something but in writing on a whatsapp group? What were you thinking?


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## Steven Barrett (6 Dec 2018)

Ladyjuicy08 said:


> Only few people in group and this guy is the same guy who slags everyone of at work including digs at a girl over the size of her breast/ sexuality but she never complained about it,no-one ever complains about him as we all just take it as 'banter.



This is a case of two wrongs don't make a right. Just because he has pretty despicable standards, doesn't mean everyone else can lower themselves to his level and expect no consequences...even if it is him making the complaint. 

If he has made lewd comments about a woman's breasts/ sexuality, a complaint should be made against him. What decade are we living in where men think they can go around making comments like that and get away with it???


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## Brendan Burgess (6 Dec 2018)

SBarrett said:


> This is a case of two wrongs don't make a right.



Correct. 

And victims of this guy's "banter" should make complaints about him.

I pity your poor employer having to deal with stuff like this.  They will be the big loser. 

Brendan


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## David1234 (6 Dec 2018)

Was it not someone in the group who actually complained and not the person you were making fun of?

Retrospectively looking back on the actions of the person who was being made fun isn't fair. You should not choose to take offence now because it might lighten the potential punishment. The actions of the individual should of been reported at the time if they were offensive.


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## Ladyjuicy08 (6 Dec 2018)

Infairness there are a queue of people now willing to make complaints against him,he's opened a can of worms with making his complaint


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## TrundleAlong (6 Dec 2018)

Ladyjuicy08 said:


> Infairness there are a queue of people now willing to make complaints against him,he's opened a can of worms with making his complaint



I think the can of worms was already there on both sides. Isolating a staff member by setting up a WhatsApp group to pass comments about him behind his back is bullying.

So the bullying continues. There is now a queue of people waiting to make complaints about him. Have the bullies invited more people to join their "small" group?


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## Ladyjuicy08 (6 Dec 2018)

David1234 said:


> Was it not someone in the group who actually complained and not the person you were making fun of?
> 
> Retrospectively looking back on the actions of the person who was being made fun isn't fair. You should not choose to take offence now because it might lighten the potential punishment. The actions of the individual should of been reported at the time if they were offensive.



Person in group sent him a screenshot so he complained about If person in group found anyth


TrundleAlong said:


> I think the can of worms was already there on both sides. Isolating a staff member by setting up a WhatsApp group to pass comments about him behind his back is bullying.
> 
> So the bullying continues. There is now a queue of people waiting to make complaints about him. Have the bullies invited more people to join their "small" group?



This group was not set up to isolate anyone it set up as a lotto group and in all the time it's been there 6 months this 1 time this 1 meme was shared and nothing else has ever been said shared in relation to anyone outside of the group


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## TrundleAlong (6 Dec 2018)

No, but your group is now scrambling to get others to join the queue to make complaints about him?

Strange that all these people never felt the need to make any complaints about him in the past?


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## Ladyjuicy08 (6 Dec 2018)

TrundleAlong said:


> No, but your group is now scrambling to get others to join the queue to make complaints about him?
> 
> Strange that all these people never felt the need to make any complaints about him in the past?


 
No the group is still only for lotto but others at work know about the complaint and said that they also have has issues with him with things he's said to them no-one has been added to the group 
Has no-one ever annoyed u at work before and u complained in what u thought was a private group about them This group was not set up to slag anybody it was 1 instance and 1 meme that's all


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## David1234 (6 Dec 2018)

I would hate to be in your HR department this week.

Why are you still defending the actions of the person who shared the picture? They were wrong and should not of done so.

Perhaps the person who's picture was shared was also wrong in their previous actions but they are two separate issues and should be dealt with as such.

If I was the person who sent the message into the group I would be apologising for my actions and say that it was an error of judgement. I would not be justifying my actions by saying that the injured party deserved it because of alleged previous actions


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## WaterWater (6 Dec 2018)

Ladyjuicy08 said:


> but others at work know about the complaint



Who told them?


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## WaterWater (6 Dec 2018)

Ladyjuicy08 said:


> Infairness there are a queue of people now willing to make complaints against him,


How do you know?


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## Early Riser (6 Dec 2018)

Ladyjuicy - this sort of thing is as old as the hills but the big difference is that is has taken place on social media rather than the pub,club, Christmas party, etc. That is a big no-no. I think you should ignore some of the moralising about this (let he who is without sin, etc) and just look at it as a very foolish mistake that you should try to resolve as quickly as possible.

If you go down the route of people making accusations against the other party at this point it is most likely going to make the situation worse, reflect badly on everyone and spoil the atmosphere forever (unless we are talking about some type of sackable offence). Just deal with the issue that arose. It was wrong. Apologies are needed to the offended party.

If other issues arise in the future then individuals should address it through the grievance procedure. If individuals have issues re past behaviour they could address them directly (and privately) with the person concerned, saying what occurred, what they felt about it and that they will not tolerate anything of the sort in future.



Ladyjuicy08 said:


> In fairness there are a queue of people now willing to make complaints against him,he's opened a can of worms with making his complaint



Maybe, but it is irrelevant to the matter in hand. Just deal with the WhatsApp  issue.


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## Sophrosyne (6 Dec 2018)

I think this thread highlights the importance to employers of having written policies in place to deal with bullying and harassment in the workplace and to inform all employees, including visiting contractors, etc., of those policies,

Employers should also realize that they have vicarious liability, which extends beyond the workplace, for instance, to the Christmas party and other work-related events.


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## Jim2007 (6 Dec 2018)

Ladyjuicy08 said:


> Has no-one ever annoyed u at work before and u complained in what u thought was a private group about them This group was not set up to slag anybody it was 1 instance and 1 meme that's all



You seem to fail to appreciate that doing this on social media and making the comment in private to another person are two very different things.  Just as slagging someone off down the pub is very different to doing it on social media.  The difference is that social media last forever and you have no control over where it can turn up later.  And sadly this kind of thing has had tragic consequences in some cases, which would naturally make any employer concerned about their own liability.

What you are now describing re work place complaints etc. is most definitely having an impact on the work force and I would not be at all surprised if there are consequences come down the road for the members of this little group, epically if they are agitating for additional complains.   It does not have to be a disciplinary action, just a promotion over looked, a bonus not given, a reference not as good as it otherwise would have been and so on.


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## Ladyjuicy08 (6 Dec 2018)

WaterWater said:


> Who told them?


Everybody knows everybodies business I've had several people asking me within 15mins of my boss talking to me


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## Jimmy Dee (6 Dec 2018)

http://gdprandyou.ie/


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## elcato (6 Dec 2018)

Jim2007 said:


> You seem to fail to appreciate that doing this on social media and making the comment in private to another person are two very different things.


Whatsapp messaging is end-to-end, They don't store any messages on servers anywhere. I would suggest it's like someone recording your conversation in the pub and then playing back to someone else. This whole conversation is ridiculous. They had a private conversation and someone decided to tell a person not in the conversation about it. So what; company should not be involved in this but we are living in Snowflakia now


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## Ladyjuicy08 (6 Dec 2018)

elcato said:


> Whatsapp messaging is end-to-end, They don't store any messages on servers anywhere. I would suggest it's like someone recording your conversation in the pub and then playing back to someone else. This whole conversation is ridiculous. They had a private conversation and someone decided to tell a person not in the conversation about it. So what; company should not be involved in this but we are living in Snowflakia now



To be honest it was 1 meme that was forgotten about as was sent weeks ago & never mentioned again I didnt even remember when my boss said it to me the person who screenshot it imo just caused whole load of unnessary trouble that could of been avoid cos now whole place is up in arms over it


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## Sophrosyne (6 Dec 2018)

The salient point is that a complaint was made to management, which to protect _themselves_ must take action.

The action they take will depend on the full circumstances.



Ladyjuicy08 said:


> the person who screenshot it imo just caused whole load of unnessary trouble that could of been avoid cos now whole place is up in arms over it



For you, this should be a cautionary tale. Chalk it up to experience.


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## llgon (6 Dec 2018)

Ladyjuicy08 said:


> We were doing a gentle bit of slagging on it about someone from work who goes around slagging everybody off to their face & behind their backs.





Ladyjuicy08 said:


> To be honest it was 1 meme that was forgotten about as was sent weeks ago



Could you clarify if it was definitely just one meme and nothing else, the 'we' in your first post suggests otherwise?




Ladyjuicy08 said:


> The group has been disbanded but the employee has put a complaint in against all the members claiming bullying



Surely the only member of the group who has a case to answer is the one who posted the meme, unless there is more to it.


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## Jim2007 (6 Dec 2018)

elcato said:


> Whatsapp messaging is end-to-end, They don't store any messages on servers anywhere. I would suggest it's like someone recording your conversation in the pub and then playing back to someone else.



It certainly is not and at this stage with all that has been published it is hard to imagine there are people who still believe that their messages are private.  First of all anyone can do a screen grab and toss it up anywhere on the net at anytime, even the situation we are discussing demonstrates that. Second, it is not some kind of secure point to point communication network, it has to go over relay servers, routers etc any of which can cache a copy and thirdly you are relying on their unmonitored integrity to say they are no in fact keeping a copy.

You should not put anything up in social media that you would not mind seeing up on the company/club notice board or the white board in the kitchen.


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## Ladyjuicy08 (6 Dec 2018)

llgon said:


> Could you clarify if it was definitely just one meme and nothing else, the 'we' in your first post suggests otherwise?
> 
> We as in he posted the picture few people said yeah he's the spit of his and few laughing emoji 6 messages in total and nothing else before or after that
> 
> ...


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## Ladyjuicy08 (6 Dec 2018)

1 meme 1/2 comments saying yeah it's the spit of him and few laughing emoji 6 messages in total and nothing else before or after that


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## Ladyjuicy08 (6 Dec 2018)

Jim2007 said:


> You should not put anything up in social media that you would not mind seeing up on the company/club notice board or the white board in the kitchen.



I've seen print out of memes at work stuck up with people's name on them and the person just laughs it off I've even had my name written beside picture on the notice board few years ago but it's not malicious


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## SparkRite (6 Dec 2018)

This whole debacle is a joke or rather SHOULD be, but unfortunately in the age we live in, its gets blown up out of all proportion and people think they must be seen to take it seriously. Since time immemorial, people spoke about people and in general what would be relayed back would not be complimentary. So what, get over it, we're all adults, start acting like one. To take umbridge and go running to management is just so purile "Oee Oee Oee I'm straight telling on you", springs to mind ! 
It is pathetic.

As Oscar Wilde said "There is only one thing in life worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about."

Having said that, as already noted, one must be extremely careful what is written (in every media) and to a lesser extent what is spoken, for obvious reasons.

BTW "WhatsApp" is not regarded as social media, per se,  but as a messaging service and contrary to what has been said above is not easily intercepted. It uses end-to-end encryption and is so secure that even "WhatsApp" cannot access Person A's message. In other words, there is no Person C, and, supposedly, no potential hackers.


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## LS400 (6 Dec 2018)

I can't imagine a situation where an employee would come up to me complaining about such a scenario. I wouldn't entertain such school yard nonsense, and the staff would know this. 

Being asked by posters here to apologise to this idiot is what's pathetic. Get real. At this stage, i would gather all involved, and remind them they're not flippen 12 years of age anymore.

Jeez, how do companies get any work done in such environments.


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## Jim2007 (7 Dec 2018)

SparkRite said:


> It uses end-to-end encryption and is so secure that even "WhatsApp" cannot access Person A's message.



And you believe this because.... Oh yes they tell you....

In the real world, developers and admins make mistakes and data gets exposed, servers and caching gets added to speed things up and encryption gets turned off because it generates massive overhead and that is before the hackers get involved.

At the end of the day it is your data and if you are happy to take them at their word then that is up to you.  But personally I would not believe it for a minute.


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## AlbacoreA (7 Dec 2018)

Ladyjuicy08 said:


> Person in group sent him a screenshot so he complained about If person in group found anyth
> 
> 
> This group was not set up to isolate anyone it set up as a lotto group and in all the time it's been there 6 months this 1 time this 1 meme was shared and nothing else has ever been said shared in relation to anyone outside of the group



Think of it like this. You can't trust anyone in that group now.


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## mathepac (7 Dec 2018)

LS400 said:


> I wouldn't entertain such school yard nonsense


Nor would any mature person


LS400 said:


> they're not flippen 12 years of age anymore.


Nor are we. Maybe it's time to consign this nonsense to The Depths or just shut it down.


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## DeeKie (7 Dec 2018)

This is a dangerous area for employees and employers alike. Op check your employee manual, also leave the WhatsApp group and keep your head down. Your employers ability to review the messages in the group comes down to whether it has a policy as per Barbulescu. 

https://www.williamfry.com/newsandi...nt-messaging-barbulescu-revisited-by-the-echr


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## Jim2007 (7 Dec 2018)

LS400 said:


> I can't imagine a situation where an employee would come up to me complaining about such a scenario. I wouldn't entertain such school yard nonsense, and the staff would know this.
> 
> Being asked by posters here to apologise to this idiot is what's pathetic. Get real. At this stage, i would gather all involved, and remind them they're not flippen 12 years of age anymore.
> 
> Jeez, how do companies get any work done in such environments.



The only problem with that is the the law does not care what you think... the law and common sense are two very different things.


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## Purple (7 Dec 2018)

LS400 said:


> I can't imagine a situation where an employee would come up to me complaining about such a scenario. I wouldn't entertain such school yard nonsense, and the staff would know this.
> 
> Being asked by posters here to apologise to this idiot is what's pathetic. Get real. At this stage, i would gather all involved, and remind them they're not flippen 12 years of age anymore.
> 
> Jeez, how do companies get any work done in such environments.


That's all well and good but as an employer to have a duty of care. That means that as an employer you have to deal with this or leave yourself open to being taken to court so, no matter how silly and childish you think this is (and I agree that it is), you have to held your nose and deal with it. 
We live in a world where the prefix "Well I just feel" is enough to validate an opinion, where faux pas are now called "Micro-aggressions" and where offense can be taken at a comment no matter the context in which that comment was made.


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## Blackrock1 (7 Dec 2018)

LS400 said:


> I can't imagine a situation where an employee would come up to me complaining about such a scenario. I wouldn't entertain such school yard nonsense, and the staff would know this.
> 
> Being asked by posters here to apologise to this idiot is what's pathetic. Get real. At this stage, i would gather all involved, and remind them they're not flippen 12 years of age anymore.
> 
> Jeez, how do companies get any work done in such environments.



im with you, but alas it seems the world is changing


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## Leo (7 Dec 2018)

DeeKie said:


> Your employers ability to review the messages in the group comes down to whether it has a policy as per Barbulescu.



That doesn't apply here as the messages were voluntarily submitted to the employer in support of a complaint.


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## Early Riser (7 Dec 2018)

Jim2007 said:


> The only problem with that is the the law does not care what you think... the law and common sense are two very different things.



The problem with "common sense" is that everyone has their own version of it - it is not really common at all. "Common sense" might be more accurately described as unexamined personal prejudice. It was once "common sense" that women should not be entitled to vote - thinking about such complex things would overtax their delicate constitutions. It was common sense that ordinary people (the rabble) should not be allowed to vote as they were too stupid.


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## Leo (7 Dec 2018)

LS400 said:


> I can't imagine a situation where an employee would come up to me complaining about such a scenario. I wouldn't entertain such school yard nonsense, and the staff would know this.
> 
> Being asked by posters here to apologise to this idiot is what's pathetic. Get real. At this stage, i would gather all involved, and remind them they're not flippen 12 years of age anymore.



Any employer who thinks they can simply ignore such behaviour, or deal with it by treating them as children does not understand their liabilities under the Safety, Health and Welfare at Work Act and the consequences, financial and otherwise that failing to take claims seriously can have. Personal style or opinions simply don't come into it. There are plenty of cases that have made their way through the Employee Appeals Tribunal and the courts system. Half the employers brought before the EAT don't even have procedures in place to deal with such bullying, this generally doesn't go well for them!

Also, take a look through the Harassment, Harmful Communications and Related Offences Bill to see what's coming to a courtroom near you soon.


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## Leo (7 Dec 2018)

Early Riser said:


> It was once "common sense" that women should not be entitled to vote



That's the thing with a Common Law based system, it evolves.


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## Blackrock1 (7 Dec 2018)

Early Riser said:


> It was common sense that ordinary people (the rabble) should not be allowed to vote as they were too stupid.



and brexit and trump doesn't reinforce this?

i jest...somewhat


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## Sunny (7 Dec 2018)

God, this makes me despair for the world my children are going to grow up into. Grown up people thinking it is funny to share a meme on social media about a fellow employee. Grown up people coming back with the argument 'he said this first, she said this first'....You were completely in the wrong for what you did. Even if you weren't caught. If I found out that my children were sending messages about other children in their class to other pupils, they wouldn't see the internet or phone again for a very long time. You are grown adults. Instead of trying to worm yourself out of it by using the other guys behaviour as an excuse, you should all accept responsibility for your actions and just apologise. It doesn't matter if it was just one meme or 100 memes. It doesn't matter if he is a sexist twat or not.


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## Early Riser (7 Dec 2018)

Leo said:


> That's the thing with a Common Law based system, it evolves.



I take your general point, Leo, although the right to vote did not evolve through Common Law.

Also, I think you may have slightly misquoted me.


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## Leo (7 Dec 2018)

Early Riser said:


> I take your general point, Leo, although the right to vote did not evolve through Common Law.



Yeah, the early stages did when we were governed under UK law, but I meant a more general what might be considered right and appropriate evolves over time and our system adapts to follow. 



Early Riser said:


> Also, I think you may have slightly misquoted me.



Oops....


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## Early Riser (7 Dec 2018)

Sunny said:


> Grown up people thinking it is funny to share a meme on social media about a fellow employee.



Although, to be fair, people have always talked about, joked about, gave out about,etc., others in their social network or work group behind their backs. Its why I always go to social occasions in my own network when I can - so as not to be the subject of the conversation! More seriously, though, social media has transformed the norms - and dangers - around this.


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## Sunny (7 Dec 2018)

Early Riser said:


> Although, to be fair, people have always talked about, joked about, gave out about,etc., others in their social network or work group behind their backs. Its why I always go to social occasions in my own network when I can - so as not to be the subject of the conversation! More seriously, though, social media has transformed the norms - and dangers - around this.



Yeah I know. But as you say, the internet and social media have completely changed the rules on this and it amazes me that adults struggle to understand this in a work environment. A colleague of mine got in trouble because he had his job title and where he worked on his personal twitter handle ( Don't ask me why). He had a little disclaimer stating that the views expressed were his own personal views and not those of the company. He then made some stupid sexist insensitive comment about a rape case and of course people re-tweeted and included the company. His defence was 'But I put a disclaimer on it'.......


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## Ladyjuicy08 (7 Dec 2018)

Sunny said:


> God, this makes me despair for the world my children are going to grow up into. Grown up people thinking it is funny to share a meme on social media about a fellow employee.



It wasn't shared on social media its not like it was put up on Facebook/ Twitter for the world to see it was in what was meant to be a private message please don't tell me u have never complained or called anybody in ur  whole life something behind their back when u been annoyed at them As I've stated before from it was 1 thing that I personally couldn't even remember until reminded Its not a on going thing where it's been done everyday This group as stated was NOT set up to make fun of this person


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## elcato (7 Dec 2018)

Sunny said:


> Yeah I know. But as you say, the internet and social media have completely changed the rules on this and it amazes me that adults struggle to understand this in a work environment. A colleague of mine got in trouble because he had his job title and where he worked on his personal twitter handle ( Don't ask me why). He had a little disclaimer stating that the views expressed were his own personal views and not those of the company. He then made some stupid sexist insensitive comment about a rape case and of course people re-tweeted and included the company. His defence was 'But I put a disclaimer on it'...


The difference with this case here is that it was not social media where people can opt to see what you are saying. It was a private group messaging each other just like a conversation in a pub. If they knew someone was listening they would not have said anything.


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## Sophrosyne (7 Dec 2018)

Ladyjuicy08 said:


> It wasn't shared on social media its not like it was put up on Facebook/ Twitter for the world to see it was in what was meant to be a private message please don't tell me u have never complained or called anybody in ur whole life something behind their back when u been annoyed at them As I've stated before from it was 1 thing that I personally couldn't even remember until reminded Its not a on going thing where it's been done everyday This group as stated was NOT set up to make fun of this person



You understand that we can only provide general advice in the absence of information from both sides.

I’m sure that by now you understand that firstly, the fact that the WhatsApp group was, as you thought, private and that messages were to be shared only with group members and that the messages were sent outside working hours are not a defence as far as your employer’s legal responsibilities are concerned.  

Secondly, personal opinions as to what should be considered as normal office banter and reliance on what was acceptable in the past is irrelevant.

Thirdly, the complainant’s behaviour, prior to lodging the complaint, is also irrelevant as it wasn’t reported at the time. Even if it was, it bears little relation to his current complaint.

Your employer has a legal duty to investigate all reported incidences of bullying and harassment and take appropriate action under the firm’s Code of Practice.

What _is_ in your favour and we’ll have to take your word on this, is that the behaviour complained of was not _persistent_ and your employer will take this into account.

However, as I mentioned, we don’t have both sides of the story or the full details of the complaint.


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## DeeKie (7 Dec 2018)

Leo said:


> That doesn't apply here as the messages were voluntarily submitted to the employer in support of a complaint.


It doesn’t apply to the person who volunteered the message but it does apply to the others.


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## Ladyjuicy08 (7 Dec 2018)

DeeKie said:


> It doesn’t apply to the person who volunteered the message but it does apply to the others.


Also the person who screenshot it is not the one who gave it to the employer The employer is claiming not to know who took the screenshot so it was given to employer by the person who wasn't in the group


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## RETIRED2017 (7 Dec 2018)

Ladyjuicy08 said:


> Also the person who screenshot it is not the one who gave it to the employer The employer is claiming not to know who took the screenshot so it was given to employer by the person who wasn't in the group


Which means it was shared and in the possession of people outside your group,


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## DeeKie (7 Dec 2018)

RETIRED2017 said:


> Which means it was shared and in the possession of people outside your group,


It doesn’t mean it can be used though, for disciplining.


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## Ladyjuicy08 (7 Dec 2018)

Sorry to clarify it was screenshot by 'someone' in the group ( we know who process of elimination but don't want to accuse anyone) who in turn sent it to the person it was about who then showed employer No-one else at work has seen it as far as I'm aware but knows about it as I said everyone knows everyone's business


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## RETIRED2017 (7 Dec 2018)

Ladyjuicy08 said:


> Sorry to clarify it was screenshot by 'someone' in the group ( we know who process of elimination but don't want to accuse anyone) who in turn sent it to the person it was about who then showed employer No-one else at work has seen it as far as I'm aware but knows about it as I said everyone knows everyone's business


Reading between the lines everyone knows everyone's business .I suspect the only person who did not know about it was the person in the screenshot until someone in your group called a halt to it,


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## Ladyjuicy08 (7 Dec 2018)

RETIRED2017 said:


> Reading between the lines everyone knows everyone's business .I suspect the only person who did not know about it was the person in the screenshot until someone in your group called a halt to it,



No need to be reading between the lines nobody knew about it until it was brought to bosses attention I've already stated it was a once off and forgotten about


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## RETIRED2017 (7 Dec 2018)

DeeKie said:


> It doesn’t mean it can be used though, for disciplining.


WE don't know both sides of the story and what prompted one in the group to inform the person concerned,
It was not forgotten about by one member of your group ,
Ladyjuicy08 may have forgotten about it and I can understand well how she would have but others did not and this is the angle she need to be looking at it from ,I am trying to be helpful to Ladyjuicy08 all may not be as happy as she thinks in her group ao with the people outside her group ,


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## Ladyjuicy08 (7 Dec 2018)

RETIRED2017 said:


> WE don't know both sides of the story and what prompted one in the group to inform the person concerned,



Stirring up trouble but I don't think they expected this much trouble to come from it as they walking around not looking anyone in the eyes


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## Ladyjuicy08 (7 Dec 2018)

I would understand the person who screenshot it more if it was show to the other person right away but why wait coming up now nearly 6 weeks to do anything about when in mean time it was all forgotten about and never mentioned I've had plenty of conversations with this person since then and they've never mentioned it once to me


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## mathepac (7 Dec 2018)

Sophrosyne said:


> You understand that we can only provide general advice in the absence of information from both sides.


I was under the impression we made general suggestions here and that anyone needing "advice" needed to pay for the professional kind outside of the forum. I'm not sure what the proponents in this thread need in the line of advice though, whether parental, legal, H&S, general conduct or other.

I'm not sure whether the forum is becoming more like FB, boards.ie or a childrens' school playground at break time, but threads like this one add nothing to its hard-earned and well maintained reputation. IMO of course.


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## RETIRED2017 (7 Dec 2018)

Ladyjuicy08 said:


> Stirring up trouble but I don't think they expected this much trouble to come from it as they walking around not looking anyone in the eyes


I would not be so sure about that I would go so far as to say you may be surprised at how little support there will be if things go against the person who put it up in the first place,
I suspect some of your so called Friends may not stand with you. the screenshot was just something used to damage you both ,
the fact that it was used 6 weeks later tells you to mend fences with the person in the screenshot and look after your own interest and stop allowing others to be using  you to get at other people,


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## RETIRED2017 (7 Dec 2018)

Ladyjuicy08 said:


> Infairness there are a queue of people now willing to make complaints against him,he's opened a can of worms with making his complaint


How many have so far Most times it is just talk with no action,
Next time the mention it ask them why the have not already done so,


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## Ladyjuicy08 (7 Dec 2018)

RETIRED2017 said:


> How many have so far Most times it is just talk with no action,
> Next time the mention it ask them why the have not already done so,



Numerous people have come to me saying it but I'm in no way encouraging them I actual don't think they should as this will only make the whole thing worse than it's needs to be 
Plus my original post which I've sidetracked from also various other posting have was just to ask the question legally have my employers the right to my private messages which again where not posted in public and screenshot without my permission especially since it wasnt handed to them directly from anyone in the group


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## Leo (10 Dec 2018)

DeeKie said:


> It doesn’t mean it can be used though, for disciplining.



Once it was brought to the attention of management, it became public, and the employer now has an obligation to act on it. Messages such as this have been used in the EAT in the past. 

No one should be under the impression they are immune from repercussions just because such messages were shared via a private service. Anything you commit to writing via any medium can come back and bite you.


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## MangoJoe (11 Dec 2018)

Isn't this all very simple? Someone did something wrong through poor judgement, got found out and now faces some appropriate sanction which the company is obliged and duty bound to deliver.

Secondary to this, people may well have a change of perspective regarding this "victims" own history of prior misconduct in the office. Seeing as this individual has opted to pursue this via the HR channel now others may feel that with the benefit of further perspective this is an option well worth considering themselves & make retrospective complaints about the persons past behaviour and personal comments relating to peoples anatomical attributes and sexuality - for which they surely deserve sanction themselves.

For the record and contrary to some previous commentary, WhatsApp is very decidedly a social media platform - Also it should be noted there's nothing "private" about WhatsApp's obliging nature in allowing one to forward images or video to 9 or 999 people outside of the original "private" group of addressees.

If you go around accusing people of poor behaviour you'd better be ready and willing to answer for your own.


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