# Does the executor control "everything" belonging to the deceased.



## SlurrySlump (5 Jan 2014)

Can an executor withhold financial papers such as bank statements etc that belonged to the deceased before he died if a beneficiary or family member of the deceased has requested them?

I always understood that the executor's role commenced on the death of the person. In this case the beneficiaries want to ensure that what was in the deceased person's bank account has not been interfered with in any way.


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## Padraigb (5 Jan 2014)

The short answer is yes. From the date of death until distributions are made, all assets of the deceased (including personal papers) are vested in the executor.


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## SlurrySlump (5 Jan 2014)

My father was a great hoarder. He kept every piece of paper, bills, receipts, cheque stubs, payslips, terms and conditions of employment etc. These items have no monetary value but are of interest to me as it charts out another side of his life.  The executor wants to hire a skip and dump everything that has no monetary value. To clean out the house so it can be put up for sale. I am a beneficiary of the will, the executor is not.  I would like these items kept. Does he have the right to dump them?


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## putsch (5 Jan 2014)

If you have been left these items then they are yours to take but if not then it is a matter for the executor to decide how to handle the clearance of the house and he has no obligation to involve everyone/anyone in how to get rid of items of little or no value. Indeed if there are varied views on how to clear a house it makes sense for the executor to do it without consultation. 

However if this is the only issue and no one else involved has any view on these papers then you could ask the executor politely if you could help by disposing of them yourself & just arrange to take them with executor agreement asap.


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## Laramie (5 Jan 2014)

putsch said:


> If you have been left these items then they are yours to take



At what point can these items be taken though?  They have no monetary value, just sentimental value. I cannot imagine that the executor can just dump these items. I would have thought that they belong to the beneficiaries but do they have to wait until some point in time before they can take them?

I always thought that an executor was a caretaker of items belonging to the beneficiaries, even items some people might regard as "tat".


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## Padraigb (5 Jan 2014)

I note this particular sentence:


SlurrySlump said:


> In this case the beneficiaries want to ensure that what was in the deceased person's bank account has not been interfered with in any way.


To me, it seems clear that OP does not trust the executor. Obviously, we cannot know if that distrust is well-founded.

The law is written on the supposition that the executor is a trusted person. Obviously, the nominated executor was trusted by the testator, and that counts for something. Perhaps surprisingly, there is no formal obligation on an executor to give an account of the executorship to the residuary beneficiaries. In my opinion, it is wise of an executor to do so. 

Were I am executor, and acting honestly in what I believed to be the best interests of the beneficiaries, I would be slow to accede to a request to hand over the financial records of the deceased in the period prior to death. But I certainly would not destroy them, because I might need them to defend myself from allegations of improper conduct.

[As it happens, I have such a set of financial records in my study. The beneficiaries know that I have them, and that they may see them if they wish. And they also know that I intend to destroy them in the future unless they decide to take them from me.]


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## STEINER (5 Jan 2014)

SlurrySlump said:


> My father was a great hoarder. He kept every piece of paper, bills, receipts, cheque stubs, payslips, terms and conditions of employment etc. These items have no monetary value but are of interest to me as it charts out another side of his life.  The executor wants to hire a skip and dump everything that has no monetary value. To clean out the house so it can be put up for sale. I am a beneficiary of the will, the executor is not.  I would like these items kept. Does he have the right to dump them?



I have no legal background but your post rings true to my experience.

1st of all, sorry about your bereavement.

On a lighter note, we could be related, because your father sounds like mine.  I just don't get the extreme hoarding thing that older people do.  It makes it hard to sift through the wheat and chaff.

I don't think it is acceptable to dump stuff without it being examined and family given an opportunity to retrieve stuff.  Who was willed the contents?

I have gone through an elderly relative's belongings after death.  Most of the paper stuff was for the shredder, 40 years ( literally, I do not jest) of p60's etc etc.  It was important to family that family did this out of respect to our loved one.  We found some brilliant photographs during the clearance.  Apart from the necessity of clearing the house contents for a sale, it was also therapeutic in a way and less cold.  ( when a more previous relative passed, the sole beneficiary tossed everything into a skip and other family members pulled photos out of the skip).


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## Laramie (6 Jan 2014)

Padraigb said:


> Were I am executor, and acting honestly in what I believed to be the best interests of the beneficiaries, I would be slow to accede to a request to hand over the financial records of the deceased in the period prior to death. But I certainly would not destroy them, because I might need them to defend myself from allegations of improper conduct.



In my situation it was the executor's wife who nominated herself to handle the deceased's affairs for a number of years before my father died, including holding the pen when my father wrote his cheques. (He was 90% blind) All requests by others to see these financial papers was refused. 
Her husband is now the executor and he is refusing to allow the beneficiaries to see the financial papers so we have no idea how his wife dealt with my father's financial matters.


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## Kimmagegirl (6 Jan 2014)

Padraigb said:


> The short answer is yes. From the date of death until distributions are made, all assets of the deceased (including personal papers) are vested in the executor.



Can you clarify this a bit better.  The executor is responsible for the "balances" in the account from the date of death but not before death? So why would the executor refuse to hand over copies of bank statements(effectively pieces of paper) to the beneficiaries, that existed while the now deceased was alive when requested?  If these items are only in his hands as caretaker not as owner then at some stage they will have to be handed over?

Reading Laramie's post I would have thought that if the executor's wife was dealing with the accounts before death then there might be a conflict of interest there especially if the executor's wife was also a beneficiary. How can one beneficiary and the executor have all this knowledge to the exclusion of the other beneficiaries?


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## hazelgreen (6 Jan 2014)

I think a distinction needs to be made between 'personal effects' and assets that have monetary value.  Old paper records, diaries, newspaper clippings, photographs, mementos etc would belong in the first category.  These would not form part of the estate to be disbursed to beneficiaries unless specifically directed by the deceased in his will.  The executor may decide what to do with these items as if they were his own property.  He would be wise to hold on to any financial records until probate is granted.  Whatever about beneficiaries having an interest in same, the taxman must also be dealt with.  I do not think beneficiaries are entitled to see such information in the normal course of events?


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## Padraigb (6 Jan 2014)

I'm not trying to justify the rules, and I do recognise that there are possibilities to conceal or obscure misbehaviour. Such situations are very difficult, and the difficulties go beyond the practical, as it is often the case that emotions are heavily invested in these things. If my answer seems hard-hearted, don't hold that against me: I'm trying to explain the rules as I understand them.

The executor is a trusted person, trusted by the testator and trusted by the court to execute the will properly. If a mistake has been made in placing trust in that person, it is very difficult to undo. And, as I indicated earlier, there is little pressure on the executor to account for his/her stewardship. A challenge is possible through the courts, but it can be difficult and expensive to go down that road.

The reason why I say that all assets, including personal papers, are vested in the executor is straightforward: there is no other sensible approach. Property passes through the will, even if that property has little or no commercial value. I would actually take a strong position on personal financial papers: they are more likely to be of use to a conscientious and dutiful executor than to anybody else. I can tell you that in that box of papers to which I referred in an earlier post, I discovered the existence of a valuable life insurance policy of which the family was unaware, found documents that helped me with some small but useful financial claims, and was able to deal with tax matters that had not been finalised.

The sort of conflict of interest that is troubling people who are posting here is almost standard in the case of a lay executor, particularly in the case of the will of an elderly person. People tend to nominate trusted family members as executors, and those family members have often been heavily involved in the testator's affairs prior to death. Being an optimist about human nature, I like to believe that this is a satisfactory arrangement in most families, but being also realistic, I am sure that it sometimes arises that some people take unfair advantage of a position of trust.

Anybody who has serious concerns about the administration of an estate can invoke the law, and ask the court to require the executor to submit accounts (See http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1965/en/act/pub/0027/sec0064.html). I'm not too sure how this works because, as a lay executor, I have managed to avoid such issues of distrust. But I'm sure that it is expensive and causes great discord. If you think you need to go down that road, I suggest that you consult a solicitor rather than a lay person like myself.


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## Bronte (7 Jan 2014)

SlurrySlump said:


> These items have no monetary value but are of interest to me as it charts out another side of his life. The executor wants to hire a skip and dump everything that has no monetary value. To clean out the house so it can be put up for sale.


 
I'm sorry for your loss, and have seen situations where in their grief people lose all sense of proportion and want to hold onto things that in the normal course of events would be dumped.  You need to look at yourself and say that you really need every bit of paper that relates to your father's life.  What are you going to do with them. Store them in boxes in your own home?  Why?  

If you really really want them, than ask the executor for them, it's a reasonable enough request. 

Or ask that you do the dumping and arrange it, saves the executor the hassle and the cost.

Or on the day of dumping, pick out the things you want from the skip. On occasion in my life with skips I've left the locals, who tend to come for a certain back ground, pick whatever they want out of the skip as it reduces the amount being dumped and leaves more room in the skip. 

It's sad that you don't trust the executor, do you have a valid reason for this?


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