# Fuel Prices



## joer (2 Mar 2021)

Is it just in Carlow or has anyone else noticed the fuel prices rising almost every day .Only last week it was 124.8 for diesel,  It is now 1.32.9 for diesel and 1.39.9 for petrol. 
I am surprised that there has been no one on Radio or TV giving out about the rising prices. Or is it because people are not filling up as often these days....


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## odyssey06 (2 Mar 2021)

I'd noticed price increase last week.
And then double whammy - I may have mis-read it, but I think the vat rate returned to 23% on 1st march so that caused a bump.


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## SparkRite (2 Mar 2021)

odyssey06 said:


> And then double whammy - I may have mis-read it, but I think the vat rate returned to 23% on 1st march so that caused a bump.


Double whammy is right!
I don't think any petrol/diesel retailer passed on the drop to 21%.
Also don't forget that the Euro is doing comparatively well against the dollar at the moment.
We are being fleeced here on fuel prices at the pumps, anybody see a drop when, last year, you couldn't give
crude oil away? But let it go up $5 dollars a barrel and practically overnight it's reflected at the pumps.


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## mathepac (2 Mar 2021)

Yep, it hit a low of 99.9 last year here.


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## SparkRite (2 Mar 2021)

mathepac said:


> Yep, it hit a low of 99.9 last year here.


Whereabouts was that @mathepac ?
Don't think it went below or even particularly close to €1 here in 'The big Smoke' unless for a flash sale or _summat loike dat_.


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## Pinoy adventure (2 Mar 2021)

1:33 here for diesel in central Dublin.there used too be an app with the different prices but it's gone now


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## noproblem (2 Mar 2021)

Diesel in Mayo €125 to €1.33 from what i've seen. What are people paying for home heating oil (Kerosene)? 1000 litres I see being priced from €570 to €620 throughout the country. Mayo right now from €590 to €620.


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## Jazz01 (2 Mar 2021)

Similar situation down south, every few days over the last 7 to 10 days, the price is increasing... This web site reflects the price at different areas in the country, but it depends on users to update, so not always accurate / up to date.

Recent (Jan '21) publication details that  "a_ surge in crude oil prices has led to an increase of approximately two cent in the average cost of a litre of fuel in Ireland..._" but there is much more of a jump than 2cents since that was published - maybe the surge kept "_surging_".


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## joer (2 Mar 2021)

It is like a cartel in Carlow town . You would be lucky to see a one cent difference in any of the forecourts . But the prices in a forecourt  could change by one or two cents depending on the time of day or night.


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## SparkRite (2 Mar 2021)

Jazz01 said:


> Recent (Jan '21) publication details that "a_ surge in crude oil prices has led to an increase of approximately two cent in the average cost of a litre of fuel in Ireland..._" but there is much more of a jump than 2cents since that was published - maybe the surge kept "_surging_".



Exactly my point (as above) but when you couldn't give it away, no appreciable (if any) drop in pump price !!
We are literally being fleeced, fuel prices increase, practically everything increases.


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## peemac (2 Mar 2021)

Oil prices were at two year highs last week. Brent was over $67. Has dropped back to $62 today.

It has been rising steadily since early November when it was $38. So 60%+ increase in the raw material cost

And 2% vat jump didn't help either


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## mathepac (3 Mar 2021)

SparkRite said:


> Whereabouts was that @mathepac ?
> Don't think it went below or even particularly close to €1 here in 'The big Smoke' unless for a flash sale or _summat loike dat_.


Kilkenny, currently 1.239 for diesel.


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## joer (3 Mar 2021)

That is a very good price, Is that in the city?


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## joe sod (3 Mar 2021)

SparkRite said:


> Double whammy is right!
> I don't think any petrol/diesel retailer passed on the drop to 21%.
> Also don't forget that the Euro is doing comparatively well against the dollar at the moment.
> We are being fleeced here on fuel prices at the pumps, anybody see a drop when, last year, you couldn't give
> crude oil away? But let it go up $5 dollars a barrel and practically overnight it's reflected at the pumps.


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## Shelby219 (5 Mar 2021)

No matter what the price is ,some people always think they are being ripped off, even if you gave away something


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## MrEarl (5 Mar 2021)

Hello,

I think much of the problem is caused by a view that when oil prices, vat etc. are reduced, consumers feel that these benefits aren't passed on, or are only passed on slowly and in part...

However, as soon as there is any reason whatsoever to justify a price increase, the local fuel stations increase the prices immediately.

Personally, I'm not satisfied that we are treated fairly.

I've previously discussed the issue with a few forcourt owners, who all claimed that prices were increased or decreased, when they received their next delivery of fuel. However, I don't believe that's the only trigger for prices increasing (otherwise, its some coincidence that so many stations get deliveries so promptly, after the price of a barrel of oil goes up on a given day etc.).

The AA used to be good at championing the consumer's cause, but I don't think they've had a lot of support from the public over the years, so they are losing interest / influence. Maybe we need to show them that we still need them?

Then we've the various consumer watchdogs, politicans etc. who tell us to shop around - which is a load of nonsense, as you'll spend more on fuel driving to a cheaper station, with the additional cost outweighing the potential benefit.

EVs are becoming more popular, as are solar panels on private houses, storage batteries etc. So the day is coming where more of us will be able to partly / fully source our own power, to run our vehicles. I, for one, can't wait...


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## Pinoy adventure (5 Mar 2021)

1:32per liter diesel central Dublin today


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## mathepac (5 Mar 2021)

joer said:


> That is a very good price, Is that in the city?


City and a few outlying spots, but you'll have to shop around for value. Not that diesel is my no 1 expanse these days   JJ Kavanagh's (opposite firestation) in Urlingford seems to be the lowest at the moment.


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## mathepac (6 Mar 2021)

MrEarl said:


> Then we've the various consumer watchdogs, politicans etc. who tell us to shop around - which is a load of nonsense, as you'll spend more on fuel driving to a cheaper station, with the additional cost outweighing the potential benefit.


pumps.ie and other apps save burning fuel to save money on fuel.  The auld internet is handy that way.


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## MrEarl (6 Mar 2021)

mathepac said:


> pumps.ie and other apps save burning fuel to save money on fuel.  The auld internet is handy that way.


While I am a fan, that app isn't always up to date, unfortunitely. It's really only as good as the people updating it, and could actually benefit from being updated.


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## joe sod (6 Mar 2021)

SparkRite said:


> We are being fleeced here on fuel prices at the pumps, anybody see a drop when, last year, you couldn't give
> crude oil away? But let it go up $5 dollars a barrel and practically overnight it's reflected at the pumps.


That ultra low price reached a year ago was only a technical trading thing whereby traders were not able to take physical delivery of the oil they had forward bought and had to sell it any price . Of course it was widely reported in the media as if it was a new world where we were moving beyond oil to a "new normal"  etc etc. Like alot of this stuff it was wildly exagerrated , yes the corona pandemic resulted in a demand shock where the demand for oil fell dramatically because of the travel bans. The price of oil is set by the marginal barrel of oil so if you produce a few million barrells above or below the demand it has a dramatic effect. Thats why OPEC was established and they have been largely successful at controlling supply in order to keep supply around demand levels and obtain the best price. However even with dramatic effects of the corona pandemic the demand for oil was still only about 8% less than in 2019, 
In 2019 100 million barrels per day were consumed
in 2020 it fell to 92 million barrels per day
in 2021 it is estimated to be back at 97 million barrels per day
Therefore the gradual year on year increase in oil consumption will carry on as before, whatever cut back happens in Europe and elsewhere will be taken up by the developing world


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## FANTANA (6 Mar 2021)

MrEarl said:


> Hello,
> 
> I think much of the problem is caused by a view that when oil prices, vat etc. are reduced, consumers feel that these benefits aren't passed on, or are only passed on slowly and in part...
> 
> ...


We have already gone EV. Fuel costs alone down 80% of our petrol car. Not including cheaper tax, insurance and servicing costs.


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## joe sod (6 Mar 2021)

FANTANA said:


> We have already gone EV. Fuel costs alone down 80% of our petrol car. Not including cheaper tax, insurance and servicing costs.


but remember 65% of petrol prices are taxation, , currently you are paying zero tax on electricity for your car, the government has to get that lost tax somewhere, they will have to tax electricity for cars especially as the government now has a ginormous bill for the pandemic. Most of the power generated still comes from fossil fuels anyway, yes wind power can supply 40% at times , alot of the time producing close to zero like today


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## FANTANA (6 Mar 2021)

joe sod said:


> but remember 65% of petrol prices are taxation, , currently you are paying zero tax on electricity for your car, the government has to get that lost tax somewhere, they will have to tax electricity for cars especially as the government now has a ginormous bill for the pandemic. Most of the power generated still comes from fossil fuels anyway, yes wind power can supply 40% at times , alot of the time producing close to zero like today


Oh no doubt, but for now as an early adopter and having bought a second hand EV there is very little downside. Even got a grant for the charger.


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## MrEarl (6 Mar 2021)

Hi Fantana,

What kind of EV did you buy, and what sort of journeys would you normally be making (assuming no lockdown) please?

I gather that the Leaf is doing very well, while the Prius has been a long term favorite - albeit its not a true EV.

I've been looking at some of the EVs that are launching in Asia, cars from NIO and XPeng both long great, but are probably a few years away from entering the Irish Market.


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## FANTANA (6 Mar 2021)

MrEarl said:


> Hi Fantana,
> 
> What kind of EV did you buy, and what sort of journeys would you normally be making (assuming no lockdown) please?
> 
> ...


Hi Earl its a 30kwh leaf Tekna. Bought it for my wife for the school run, shopping etc. Was a bit anxious about the public charging network but as a second car we have done all our charging at home. It does about 120km in winter and 150km in summer so more than comfortably for trips around town. Owning cars in Ireland is expensive business but an EV is really a very good option especially as a second car. I will keep my ICE car for now but in a few years I’d look to replace that with the likes of an E Niro, Hyundai Ioniq or a VW ID4. Over the next couple of years there are many options well capable of 400-500km per charge and are proper replacements of ICE. An EV is a pleasure to drive compared to petrol and diesel. I think once most driver switch to EV they will wonder why they didn’t do it sooner. When solid state batteries arrive in say five years petrol and diesel will be finished.


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## mathepac (6 Mar 2021)

FANTANA said:


> in say five years petrol and diesel will be finished.


apart from planes, trains, HGVs, ships, motor-cycles, lawn-mowers, chain-saws, construction equipment.


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## FANTANA (6 Mar 2021)

mathepac said:


> apart from planes, trains, HGVs, ships, motor-cycles, lawn-mowers, chain-saws, construction equipment.


Sorry I was talking about cars for domestic use, should have been clearer.


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## noproblem (6 Mar 2021)

FANTANA said:


> Sorry I was talking about cars for domestic use, should have been clearer.


Want to bet on that?


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## SparkRite (6 Mar 2021)

mathepac said:


> apart from planes, trains, HGVs, ships, motor-cycles, lawn-mowers, chain-saws, construction equipment.


Or indeed any device that needs to carry that amount of potential energy in a small relatively accessible container.


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## MrEarl (7 Mar 2021)

I think NIO have a great solution - sell the cars, but provide the batteries as a service.

The cars are significantly cheaper on Day 1, batteries can be swapped in under 5 minutes, some reports say under 3 minutes.

The cars won't devalue at the and rate as a car with a built in battery, that loses life as the years go on.





__





						A Brief History of Battery Swapping
					

The electric vehicle industry has long struggled to develop an effective solution for battery swapping to overcome the high costs of charging and replacing batteries. Over the years, the industry has developed three different approaches to address this problem.




					www.nio.com
				




Their vehicles look good, albeit they are only really selling in China to date - with first exports having only recently gone to Norway.





__





						NIO - Home
					

NIO is much more than a car company. NIO designs and develops smart, high-performance, electric vehicles with an aim to be the first “User Enterprise” in the world.




					www.nio.com


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## Zenith63 (7 Mar 2021)

FANTANA said:


> Not including cheaper tax, insurance and servicing costs.


And less depreciation for the next few years at least; AutoTrader released stats during the week showing 25% for petrol/diesel vs. 12% for EVs.


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## mathepac (7 Mar 2021)

Diesel €1.279 today locally.


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## joe sod (8 Mar 2021)

Oil prices up over $70 a barrel today and the airlines are barely flying ,  what will it be when they start back up again? Of course OPEC will increase production to meet that demand. But OPEC are back in the driving seat now and have wrestled back control of the oil price. The brave new future of zero fossil fuels is still a long way into the future along with those hover boards from "Back to the future ", sure we were supposed to be flying around in those last year


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## joer (14 Mar 2021)

Diesel was 1.35.8 in Carlow town this morning , with the local cartel,  It is gone up by 3 cents per litre in just over one week...


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## RedOnion (14 Mar 2021)

joer said:


> It is gone up by 3 cents per litre in just over one week..


Looks consistent. I couldn't make up my mind on Monday if I should order heating oil, and by the time I ordered it on Friday it had gone up 26 euro with all 4 suppliers in my area (+2.6c per litre)


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## mathepac (14 Mar 2021)

joer said:


> Diesel was 1.35.8 in Carlow town this morning , with the local cartel,  It is gone up by 3 cents per litre in just over one week..



€1.299 this morning when I was buying the papers


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## joer (14 Mar 2021)

You must have a better cartel there then we have  in Carlow  town


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## RichInSpirit (14 Mar 2021)

Saw diesel for €1.289 in a petrol station I pass on the way to work. It's normally 10 cents dearer per litre than where I buy it but now it's cheaper. I think that they have a slower turnover of fuel than where I get it.


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## vandriver (15 Mar 2021)

People make strange choices about what costs they focus on.
People will travel out of their way to save a cent or two on fuel prices (maybe saving a euro) .
People also stay with the same energy suppliers for gas and electric for years,costing many hundreds a year,and have loyalty to a car insurance company that blatantly rips them off.


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## fidelcastro (15 Mar 2021)

FANTANA said:


> We have already gone EV. Fuel costs alone down 80% of our petrol car. Not including cheaper tax, insurance and servicing costs.


How about the cost of depreciation ?


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## FANTANA (15 Mar 2021)

fidelcastro said:


> How about the cost of depreciation ?


Since its a 5 year old second-hand EV the previous Owner took the big hit. Our intention is to keep this car as a second car at least another 5 years. Depreciation is unavoidable on all cars expect a banger but then the maintenance bills start to ramp up. Like I said car Ownership is not cheap in this country but a second-hand EV currently makes it a bit better.


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## fidelcastro (15 Mar 2021)

FANTANA said:


> Since its a 5 year old second-hand EV the previous Owner took the big hit. Our intention is to keep this car as a second car at least another 5 years. Depreciation is unavoidable on all cars expect a banger but then the maintenance bills start to ramp up. Like I said car Ownership is not cheap in this country but a second-hand EV currently makes it a bit better.


And the battery lifetime.? Any details on make/ model and price paid. Interesting idea and thought. 
That said I know of an Eclass merc 220d 80km, 2011 on sale for 7grand in a merc dealers. So that's very very cheap driving for 5-10 yrs before  heat engine cars become obsolete


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## FANTANA (16 Mar 2021)

fidelcastro said:


> And the battery lifetime.? Any details on make/ model and price paid. Interesting idea and thought.
> That said I know of an Eclass merc 220d 80km, 2011 on sale for 7grand in a merc dealers. So that's very very cheap driving for 5-10 yrs before  heat engine cars become obsolete


After 5 years it's at 90% on leafspy, so expecting it to still be at 80% by 10 years old. Realistically it should be more as the previous Owner did more mileage per year than we will (even post covid). Price-wise a top-spec 5 year old leaf you should be aiming at the 10k mark. A diesel was not an option for us due to this car being solely used for short journeys.


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## Leo (16 Mar 2021)

FANTANA said:


> After 5 years it's at 90% on leafspy, so expecting it to still be at 80% by 10 years old.



Nissan's aim is for 70% after 10 years. Plenty of horror stories online of others who thought that too only to be asked for big money for replacement batteries, but there are many stories of decent battery lifespan too since the first gen models.


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## RichInSpirit (18 Mar 2021)

Diesel now €1.358 per litre in that petrol station I pass on the way to work.


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## Pinoy adventure (18 Mar 2021)

mathepac said:


> €1.299 this morning when I was buying the papers





RichInSpirit said:


> Diesel now €1.358 per litre in that petrol station I pass on the way to work.


Any idea of what petrol was ?


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## joer (18 Mar 2021)

In Carlow town the petrol is 143.8 per litre......


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## noproblem (19 Mar 2021)

Brent Crude64.53+1.25+1.98


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## MrEarl (20 Mar 2021)

Conor Faughnan to leave the AA:









						Conor Faughnan to leave AA Ireland after 30 years
					

Charity, golf and new challenges on Faughnan’s agenda for the future




					www.irishtimes.com
				




He was the closest thing that motorists had, to a level headed spokesman.  He'll be badly missed by everyone that pays Motor Tax,  and pays for their fuel.


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## noproblem (20 Mar 2021)

MrEarl said:


> Conor Faughnan to leave the AA:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What did he actually do?


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## Powderfinger (20 Mar 2021)

He got an awful easy time on Irish radio and was never asked a hard question. I often wondered was it because the radio stations were in 'an arrangement' with the AA.


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## Nordkapp (20 Mar 2021)

Petrol here in Navan at 148.8, yesterday 147.8, end of Feb was 139.8


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## mathepac (20 Mar 2021)

Pinoy adventure said:


> Any idea of what petrol was ?


Sorry, I'll get that tomorrow when buying the papers and checking the Lotto  If I don't post you'll know my numbers came up.


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## Pinoy adventure (20 Mar 2021)

mathepac said:


> Sorry, I'll get that tomorrow when buying the papers and checking the Lotto  If I don't post you'll know my numbers came up.


Don't give up on us if you become a millionaire overnight


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## MrEarl (20 Mar 2021)

noproblem said:


> What did he actually do?


He often spome out for the motorists,  when levies and taxes were being increased, or fuel prices were increasing beyond what seemed appropriate etc. I'm sure you'll find some info online.


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## Pinoy adventure (22 Mar 2021)

1.29 for diesel today


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## mathepac (22 Mar 2021)

Pinoy adventure said:


> Don't give up on us if you become a millionaire overnight


Plan A failed so Plan B is to stay on your right side! €1.409 for petrol is the cheapest locally.


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## SparkRite (22 Mar 2021)

That's comparatively cheap @mathepac , most garages here in South Dublin are around €1.48 per litre for petrol.


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## mathepac (22 Mar 2021)

Sister lives in Rottforningham (I think that's how they spell it, it's certainly how they pronounce it!), so yeah pushing the €1.50/ltr mark.


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## noproblem (26 Mar 2021)

Kerosene heating oil delivered this morning, South Mayo area, . 1000 litres €625.00.


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## jpd (26 Mar 2021)

Funny how the slightest hiccup in the supply chain causes prices at the pump to rise immediately.

The crude stuck in the Canal will not be refined for weeks yet and the raw crude that is being pumped out and sold for the higher price won't reach the forecourts for months

Extra profits for those who own the oil stock on the ships bought at a lower price and now to be sold at a higher price to the motorist. 

I don't remember it ever works the other way round - when the raw price drops, we have to wait for the existing stocks to be used up before the price drops at the pump


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## joe sod (26 Mar 2021)

jpd said:


> Extra profits for those who own the oil stock on the ships bought at a lower price and now to be sold at a higher price to the motorist.
> 
> I don't remember it ever works the other way round


it actually does work the other way thats why the oil price went briefly negative last year, the tankers and storage were all full of oil , the traders that had forward bought the oil had to pay someone to take the oil off them because they could not take physical delivery of it.


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## noproblem (26 Mar 2021)

Funny enough the price of Brent Crude is down this week by aprox 10%.


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## SparkRite (26 Mar 2021)

@joe sod I think @jpd  means the end user does not see reductions reflected at the pumps in the same time frame as increases are, if at all.

I fully agree as my first post in this thread attests.


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## EasilyAmused (26 Mar 2021)

FANTANA said:


> Not including cheaper tax, insurance and servicing costs.



Insurance is less with EVs? Why’s that?


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## peemac (10 Apr 2021)

jpd said:


> Funny how the slightest hiccup in the supply chain causes prices at the pump to rise immediately.
> 
> The crude stuck in the Canal will not be refined for weeks yet and the raw crude that is being pumped out and sold for the higher price won't reach the forecourts for months
> 
> ...


Too many people jump on this "prices rise immediately" bandwagon without checking any facts whatsoever.

Fuel pricing is probably the most transparent pricing of any consumer goods.

1 - The Raw oil price is available online from hundreds of websites. 
2- The raw oil price chart is also available on the same websites and can go back years https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/BZ=F 
3 - 6 Months ago oil was $38. Today it is $63. That's a 60% increase.
4 - oil prices spiked to near $70 from early March to about 23rd March when it dropped back to approx. $63. Its this spike to $70 that fed into fuel stations 2-3 weeks ago. The suez incident did not affect oil prices. 
5 - there are 159 litres in a  barrel of oil. that gives a euro cost per litre of 34c based on the $63 price
6 - it has to be transported to refineries and refined into fuel. That is circa 9c-11c per litre (diesel is the higher). Bringing the cost now to 42c petrol 45c diesel 
7 - The biggest cost of all - Excise duty and carbon tax. Petrol 62c, diesel 51.6c. Running total 104 petrol, 96.6c diesel. Again, this is online https://www.revenue.ie/en/companies...cences/excise-duty-rates/mineral-oil-tax.aspx 
8 - Then you have distribution costs which is circa 6c-7c / litre. (port tanks, delivery to fuel stations and all the admin work), 111 petrol, 104c diesel
9 - The the retail fuel station has to pay staff, utilities, rent, rates and other costs. They add approx. 7c to the price. 118 petrol, 1.11 diesel
10. VAT @ 23%. petrol  145, diesel 1.36. This is based on the oil price since end of March and this should be the average price next week.

If oil was free (and it was for a short period last year), the pump price would be €1.04 for petrol and 96c for diesel.    


Or put it this way. A fuel station makes a far greater profit from a €6.50 coffee + sandwich customer than a motorist buying €50 of fuel.


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## SparkRite (10 Apr 2021)

peemac said:


> Too many people jump on this "prices rise immediately" bandwagon without checking any facts whatsoever.


Very good post @peemac and thanks for taking the time.

Notwithstanding all the facts and figures, over 40 years of buying fuel at pumps has me totally convinced that _"prices rise immediately"_ is not too far wide of the truth.

Imagine, for a second, we wake up to headlines such as:-

_OPEC to cut output by 60%,_
or
_Godzilla destroys over 60% of world's oil refineries,_
or
_Due to shortage crude oil rockets to $250 a barrel, _

Absolutely guarantee *within a week* (probably less) the pump prices would increase even though they would still be working with held stock.
Reverse the headlines and see how long it would take for the prices to drop.

As I said the above is just based on my own long-term observations and may well be incorrect, but some how, I don't feel it is.


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## peemac (10 Apr 2021)

SparkRite said:


> Very good post @peemac and thanks for taking the time.
> 
> Notwithstanding all the facts and figures, over 40 years of buying fuel at pumps has me totally convinced that _"prices rise immediately"_ is not too far wide of the truth.
> 
> ...


I used to assist with pumps.ie and this subject came up. So a chart was made with oil prices (after exchange rate) and fuel prices and the pattern was steady for the 2+ year period that the figures were compiled. That was both increases and decreases and it worked out as 14-17 days.

News headlines that interest a punter and reality are usually not in tandem. If Opec announced a cut, it would have been flagged in the industry and prices would have risen well before the announcement. Currency changes make a difference too. In February the dollar was over 1.22. its now 1.19. That's 3% on the refined price.

Oil prices have been rising steadily due to positive vaccine outlook and a return to normality. The spike in March was due to hope of summer travel. None of this made headlines in relation to oil prices, yet by early March the oil price had risen over 70% in 5 months.

The Evergiven runs aground and the media say oil prices have risen - they rose about 50c and then fell back. It was a total non event for oil prices, but because it was an interesting event, the media looked at every possible angle to create hysterical headlines because too many journalists don't bother doing real checks.
The pump prices rose and suddenly people are adding 1+1 and getting 20 and its on Joe Duffy etc. But no-one actually looked at the oil price chart which would have taken a few second and they would have seen the increase  had happened 3 weeks previously and it was that increase  which was feeding into the pumps. Absolutely zilch to do with Evergiven grounding.


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## EasilyAmused (10 Apr 2021)

peemac said:


> I used to assist with pumps.ie and this subject came up.



Whatever happened to pumps.ie?
I’d used IrishFuelPrices.com for a long time but was an instant convert to pumps.ie when I discovered it. 
It was invaluable. 
Probably not as important these days will travel restrictions and #StayAtHome, but it would still be handy to have.

Would genuinely like to know what happened.


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## peemac (10 Apr 2021)

EasilyAmused said:


> Whatever happened to pumps.ie?
> I’d used IrishFuelPrices.com for a long time but was an instant convert to pumps.ie when I discovered it.
> It was invaluable.
> Probably not as important these days will travel restrictions and #StayAtHome, but it would still be handy to have.
> ...


I never met the guy that ran it. I think he just git too busy with other things. Advertising income for the site was miniscule.


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## SparkRite (10 Apr 2021)

peemac said:


> Currency changes make a difference too. In February the dollar was over 1.22. its now 1.19. That's 3% on the refined price.


Indeed it does and this is a particular 'bug bear' of mine.
Last May2020 the Euro was as low as $1.09 and recovered to $1.20 in Sept2020, a reduction of nearly 10% (9.2% to be exact) on the refined price.
I don't remember any retail group saying we have reduced our prices because of currency fluctuation but they are very quick to defend their price increase using same.

Anyway I'm not alone in 'thinking' retailers tend to be somewhat slower in decreasing as opposed to increasing prices  :-








						Petrol stations taking ‘inordinate’ amount of time to lower prices, says consumer group
					

Petrol groups warn of a ‘significant lag’ before pump prices reflect crude oil price drop




					www.irishtimes.com


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## mathepac (10 Apr 2021)

The oil companies (explorers, drillers, refiners, distributors, retail chains) in the past tended to buy both currencies and oil, crude as well as refined petroleum products, forward in order to provide for stability in the market.  This was corporate speak  for allowing them to shaft the consumer when crude  or ex-refinery prices dropped or to pass on increases immediately, thus protecting their margins. They were "locked into binding contracts" until they decided they weren't really. Like other cartels, they do what they want in their own members' interests.


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## ATC110 (10 Apr 2021)

The fuel retailers didn’t pass on the proportioned saving in full that they were making on the wholesale price for the last year.
And now they’re increasing the retail price based upon demand.


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## peemac (10 Apr 2021)

SparkRite said:


> Indeed it does and this is a particular 'bug bear' of mine.
> Last May2020 the Euro was as low as $1.09 and recovered to $1.20 in Sept2020, a reduction of nearly 10% (9.2% to be exact) on the refined price.
> I don't remember any retail group saying we have reduced our prices because of currency fluctuation but they are very quick to defend their price increase using same.
> 
> ...


The Consumer Association just like the media don't bother to check facts or do any actual working out of how its done. (I've shown how easy it is to work out the price) However the CCPC did a very comprehensive study a few years ago and found that prices rose and fell within the same timeframes, but because it did not correlate with what the media wanted, it got very little coverage. Bad news sells news, Good news doesn't. 

The dollar started to weaken last May and it gradually went from 1.08 to 1.19 over about 10 weeks.
In that 10 weeks oil prices went from $30 to $45. That's about a 12c (in vat) increase per litre.

But if you check fuel prices from May to August, they barely moved. The weakening dollar cushioned a lot of the increase.

If you go to https://finance.yahoo.com/chart/BZ=F?p=BZ=F you can click the "compare" button and add in the EURUSD chart and you'll see the correlation.

As I said, fuel is the most transparent pricing out there as the main cost is the publicly quoted oil prices, the exchange rate and the excise duty and the vat. The remaining 20c is divvied up between refinery, distributor and retailer. then on top of that, the retailer has to show the prices in lights before you enter.

Now if you go into Woodies - see if you can work out the profit on a tin of paint?


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## peemac (10 Apr 2021)

or an easier way is to look at Applegreen PLC results. They make more profit from coffee than fuel.


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## peemac (10 Apr 2021)

ATC110 said:


> The fuel retailers didn’t pass on the proportioned saving in full that they were making on the wholesale price for the last year.
> And now they’re increasing the retail price based upon demand.


see a few post above for how the fuel price is made up.

Put it this way - I'm in retail. The absolute last type of business I would look at is fuel retail as the margins are miniscule. The shops is where the money is and if the fuel price is not competitive, you won't get people into your shop for that very very profitable cup of coffee.

BTW, the UK is currently £1.28 (€1.49) for petrol and £1.31 (€1.53) for diesel.

Here's the NCA (Now CCPC) report from 2008

PETROL & DIESEL PRICE SURVEY At the request of the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Ms. Mary Coughlan, T.D, a major piece of research into the price of fuel (petrol and diesel) in Ireland was conducted by the in house research function of the Agency during the period September to December 2008.

In the course of the investigation, the Agency:  Held discussions with oil companies, distributors, retailers and other relevant parties;  Conducted extensive surveys of petrol and diesel prices at the pump and;  Analysed wholesale and retail prices in Ireland and compared these with prices for refined product at international level.

The report was submitted to the Tánaiste in December. Key conclusions included:  There is little evidence to suggest unwarranted delays in the passing on of wholesale price changes to the consumer at the pump;  Direct comparison between fluctuations in crude oil prices and petrol and diesel pump prices is inappropriate and does not reflect the reality of the petrol and diesel supply chain. 

To more accurately assess flow through of price changes in refined oil products (such as petrol and diesel) to the consumer, it is necessary to compare fluctuations in Platts prices, these being the prices for refined oil products such as petrol and diesel paid by wholesalers, and prices at the forecourt pump;  Overall, Ireland’s service station/retail petrol and diesel supply market would appear to be competitive by international standards. 

The density of outlets per capita (1 outlet per 2,020 people) in Ireland compares favourably against corresponding statistics for Northern Ireland (1 outlet per 3,113 inhabitants) and for Great Britain (1 outlet per 9,539 inhabitants). Data is required at the local level to make a definitive statement in this regard;  A number of gaps exist in the manner in which information on petrol and diesel prices in Ireland is collected, analysed and made available. 

There is clearly scope for enhancement in analysis and reporting, and improvements in this area could serve to better inform consumers of general trends in petrol and diesel prices and to place a sustained spotlight on the competitive environment in this important sector.


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## ATC110 (10 Apr 2021)

peemac said:


> see a few post above for how the fuel price is made up.
> 
> Put it this way - I'm in retail. The absolute last type of business I would look at is fuel retail as the margins are miniscule. The shops is where the money is and if the fuel price is not competitive, you won't get people into your shop for that very very profitable cup of coffee.
> 
> ...


I know about low margins in fuel prices ordinarily. My point is that margin was increased exponentially during the lockdowns 

The current UK price for diesel is £1.22 (€1.38)

A  report from 2008 has no relevance to my point


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## noproblem (11 Apr 2021)

While petrol stations do indeed sell large quantities of fuel that may not have high margins of nett profit, the shops contained on the sites of the fuel stations are (usually) well staffed and managed are supposedly the place where the money is made. Anyone care to throw a figure on the margins they end up working off, as in their nett profit? Somehow I feel it's extremely low, with a lot just about surviving, even the very high turnover ones. I'd imagine some have a lot of everyday theft of fuel, ie, in vehicles being driven off and petrol/diesel not paid for. I know cameras pick them up but there's costs involved and a lot more too in following this up. Imagine a customer filling up with say €50 worth of diesel and doing a runner? How much fuel does the owner need to sell just to get that amount back from profit?


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## joer (11 Apr 2021)

In Bagnelstown or Muine Beag as it is also called in Co Carlow the diesel is 130.9 in, Certa,, station  and 131.9 in Texaco.


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## peemac (12 Apr 2021)

ATC110 said:


> I know about low margins in fuel prices ordinarily. My point is that margin was increased exponentially during the lockdowns
> 
> The current UK price for diesel is £1.22 (€1.38)
> 
> A  report from 2008 has no relevance to my point


Last Saturday the average UK price was £1.30.5 for diesel - that was from petrolprices.com. In Bishop's Stortford the price ranged from 128.9 to 132.9 p stg
I just checked Leicester. Prices are a little lower at 124.9 Tesco to 132.9 Esso

Average UK price has dropped to 129.6 stg today.

BTW - I have zero connection to the fuel trade. Never had a connection and doubt I ever will, but years ago I wondered myself about the frequent price changes, but instead of just complaining I went and found out what the price was compiled from and it was so easy to find the unformation i wondered why the media never bothered to check themselves - then I realised that the media always want to report bad news. (note how they rarely report that prices drop)

the 2008 report was a comprehensive statutory report as the precise same questions were being asked. As it was a statutory report, the answers had to be provided with backup. As the answers did not suit the mantra that prices rise quicker than they fall, it barely got reported, cos only bad news sells.


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## deposobo (22 Apr 2021)

I'd noticed price increase last week. 
And then double whammy - I may have mis-read it, but I think the vat rate returned to 23% on 1st march so that caused a bump.


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## ClubMan (24 Nov 2022)

In case it helps anybody else.
Go, Old Cabra Road, D7.
Possibly today only?

Petrol: 149.9
Diesel: 164.9

But be warned ... 70s oil crisis style queue!


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## peemac (24 Nov 2022)

ClubMan said:


> In case it helps anybody else.
> Go, Old Cabra Road, D7.
> Possibly today only?
> 
> ...


All three components of fuel have gone in favour of the consumer in the last few days or so and most stations will be dropping substantially over the next few days. My local station dropped 10c this evening to 1.84 diesel 1.74 petrol 

Dollar .97 to $1.04 today
Refining $80 2 weeks ago, $36 today ($43 last Friday) (diesel)
Oil $95 10 days ago, $85 today 

Adds up to about 25c reduction for diesel and average price of about 1.77


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