# FAS grants for female apprentices, sexist?



## DavyJones (4 Jul 2008)

FAS offer a grant of nearly €2700 if a business hires a female apprentice. I know it is to encourage women into trades and more importantly to encourage businesses to hire them but is it not sexist? Doesn't that equality law that they brought in a few years ago cover this?


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## ClubMan (4 Jul 2008)

Maybe ask the the Equality Authority? Perhaps there is some loophole/exemption for this?


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## S.L.F (5 Jul 2008)

To me it is obliviously sexist and should not be allowed.

The reality is that 95% apprentices are male.
Females haven't been excluded they just haven't been going for trades.

I know 1 girl who was a cabinet maker 1 who was a wood turner I know of several sparks.

The simple fact is they haven't been going for the trades

I believe they can do most of the jobs I can do some of the more physically demanding jobs they would not be able to do.


SLF


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## NicolaM (5 Jul 2008)

That grant does seem sexist.
The reality is, as SLF has said, that women haven't applied for these jobs (or to put it more correctly, significantly less women than men apply for these jobs.)
It's a big grant, isn't it?!
Nicola


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## Complainer (5 Jul 2008)

S.L.F said:


> Females haven't been excluded they just haven't been going for trades.
> 
> The simple fact is they haven't been going for the trades


Any idea why?


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## DavyJones (5 Jul 2008)

I think the grant should be availible for all sexes, 1st year apprentices are not cheap labour like some people think. To some companies they are a liability for the first half year anyway. I was on to FAS recently and was told they had difficulty filling places on some block release courses, I found this strange because when I served my time getting on a course was very hard.


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## Purple (5 Jul 2008)

Complainer said:


> Any idea why?



I don't see too many women collecting bins or cleaning trains for DynoRod either. There are some jobs that women are less likely to be drawn to.

BTW, since the Dept of Education took over the course structure from FAS engineering trades apprenticeships have collapsed. In my company we go to Eastern Europe, China and India to hire skilled people, not because of lower wages but because we can't get the skilled ones here.


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## DavyJones (5 Jul 2008)

Complainer said:


> Any idea why?



Two reasons I would think are
Not being adviced by school career guidance,
A misperception of working enviroment on site.


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## Purple (5 Jul 2008)

DavyJones said:


> I think the grant should be availible for all sexes, 1st year apprentices are not cheap labour like some people think. To some companies they are a liability for the first half year anyway. I was on to FAS recently and was told they had difficulty filling places on some block release courses, I found this strange because when I served my time getting on a course was very hard.


I agree; an apprentice in an investment for the employer and will not show a return for 2-3 years. There was competition for places when I served my time as well.
The current apprentice structure is a joke. The time and cost invested has gone up massively and the tradesperson produced at the end is generally of a lower quality than those produced 15 years ago.


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## S.L.F (5 Jul 2008)

Complainer said:


> Any idea why?



I have absolutely no idea why

I suppose in the same way there are very few blokes in 

secretarial work, nursing, librarianship or personel

its just the way it is.


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## S.L.F (5 Jul 2008)

Purple said:


> I agree; an apprentice in an investment for the employer and will not show a return for 2-3 years. There was competition for places when I served my time as well.
> The current apprentice structure is a joke. The time and cost invested has gone up massively and the tradesperson produced at the end is generally of a lower quality than those produced 15 years ago.



The other problem was that there was a time when an apprentice could serve his whole time with 1 company and learn from tradesmen then at the end he would be fired to go and get a job elsewhere. but he would know all aspects of the business and would be high quality tradesman.
If at any stage the company had troubles it was craftsmen who were fired not an apprentice so they got fully trained.
AnCO messed that whole thing up when they said they would take over the training of apprentices.
For the last 2 decades we have had, more or less, a whole generation of half trained tradesmen.
I believe East Europe has the same system we had that is why their tradesmen are better quality, and mores the pity.


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## Purple (5 Jul 2008)

We kept apprentices with the same tradesman for the full 4 years but since the new continuous assessment system came in we have stopped taking them on.
The best guys we have now are over 35 or non-nationals. 
I find it strange that people will spend 3-4 years in college to get a job as a battery hen in a cubicle of a financial services company rather than 4 years getting paid to be trained for a better paid job which can lead to many career paths.


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## DavyJones (5 Jul 2008)

I think we may be a bit too harsh on the modern apprenticship system. I went through the seven phase system and thought it was ok even at it's early stage. I think the industry has changed alot, when I started it was all copper and hard soldiering, dragging around oxy-acetylene bottles was common place. Now it's all plastic pipes and I think skill has suffered as a result.
I have a young apprentice heading on block release soon and looking through his tool list from FAS it included bending springs, only even used them in college but the thought behind it is good.
The building industry in this country in the last decade has changed, it is sterring toward quantity and not so much quality. The amount of new developments I have seen that not only have problems (like leaks) but major system faults is huge.

So if we do have lower skilled trades people I would not be so fast to assign blame to FAS alone but more to the industry as a whole.


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## Purple (5 Jul 2008)

I need people who are computer literate, understand basic metallurgy, have a reasonable grasp of trigonometry and a natural ability with their hands. With that, hard work and demonstrable loyalty they can earn between 45’000 and 120’000 a year.


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## DavyJones (5 Jul 2008)

Purple said:


> I need people who are computer literate, understand basic metallurgy, have a reasonable grasp of trigonometry and a natural ability with their hands. With that, hard work and demonstrable loyalty they can earn between 45’000 and 120’000 a year.



maybe I should retrain, I like the sound of €120'000 PA


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## weejasy77 (5 Jul 2008)

Purple said:


> I need people who are computer literate, understand basic metallurgy, have a reasonable grasp of trigonometry and a natural ability with their hands. With that, hard work and demonstrable loyalty they can earn between 45’000 and 120’000 a year.



Any chance of a job?


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## shipibo (5 Jul 2008)

This is to entice employers to take more women into trades, I think another reason women do not apply is because they believe its a "men only"  gig. 

2700 eur. is not a big incentive these days, if this were a meaningful attempt it would be more.


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## DavyJones (5 Jul 2008)

And if FAS can offer this grant, can I place an ad looking for apprentices stating females need only apply?, I think not.

€2700 could be 20%-ish of an apprentice wage so it would be welcomed by any employer.


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## Purple (5 Jul 2008)

DavyJones said:


> maybe I should retrain, I like the sound of €120'000 PA



That's at the top. People at the top of every trade make good money. There's plumbers and chippies out there earning more (still).


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## weejasy77 (5 Jul 2008)

Apprenticeship is just a form of slavery

The only winner is the greedy cowboy employers... it's a joke that it is not covered by minimum wage and that young fellas/cuddies are out there working for less than 200 euro a week for at least a 40 hour week.


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## DavyJones (5 Jul 2008)

weejasy77 said:


> Apprenticeship is just a form of slavery
> 
> The only winner is the greedy cowboy employers... it's a joke that it is not covered by minimum wage and that young fellas/cuddies are out there working for less than 200 euro a week for at least a 40 hour week.



Your right and wrong,
When I changed employer in my 3rd year he had to sign a release form, I called it a change of ownership form. I've heard of some lads refusing to release apprentices without a lot of hassle.
Purple hits the nail on the head when he says that apprentices are an investment and returns are slow to see.

Don't forget present day employers went through the same thing as their apprentices, and  those apprentices in the future will do the same to their employees, the cycle will go on.
When I started I earned £55 pound a week and took loads of crap in the bargain. The dole at the time was £75. 12 years later I run my own business, hire people and have a good standard of living.


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## DavyJones (5 Jul 2008)

uiop said:


> Do the guys at the top get degrees and enter management or are they basically doing the same job as before ?
> 
> 
> 
> I know some engineers who got their degrees after gaining a trade (as electricians). Is there any point in someone doing it backwards and getting a trade after a degree ?



If you can live on poor money for 3 to 4 years. Some of the best trades people I know came in late but are much faster to pick it up. The faster you pick up a trade, the faster you make money from nixers etc.

 As an apprentice I earned more money on a saturday doing a nixer than I would working all week. A trade is for life, well worth doing if you can.


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## DavyJones (5 Jul 2008)

Many top tradesmen don't have other degrees but something much more valuable. years of experiance.


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## weejasy77 (5 Jul 2008)

DavyJones said:


> Your right and wrong,
> 
> Don't forget present day employers went through the same thing as their apprentices, and  those apprentices in the future will do the same to their employees, the cycle will go on.
> When I started I earned £55 pound a week and took loads of crap in the bargain. The dole at the time was £75. 12 years later I run my own business, hire people and have a good standard of living.



So just because it happened to you means that's it's OK to then pay someone peanuts in years to come.

I know of some young fellas getting less than they would on the dole...  and all they do all day is take crap from their employers.  I hate the way FAS turn a blind eye to employers paying the apprentice below the agreed industry standard rates.  Surely someone has to speak up for the participants of these apprenticeship programme and thrash out a better deal for them.


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## Purple (5 Jul 2008)

weejasy77 said:


> So just because it happened to you means that's it's OK to then pay someone peanuts in years to come.
> 
> I know of some young fellas getting less than they would on the dole...  and all they do all day is take crap from their employers.  I hate the way FAS turn a blind eye to employers paying the apprentice below the agreed industry standard rates.  Surely someone has to speak up for the participants of these apprenticeship programme and thrash out a better deal for them.



My wife is a doctor. She worked in hospitals during her training and didn't get paid anything. The same goes for solicitors. Are they all being exploited as well?
I'm afraid you really should not make such generalisations when it is clear that you don't know what you are talking about.


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## S.L.F (5 Jul 2008)

weejasy77 said:


> So just because it happened to you means that's it's OK to then pay someone peanuts in years to come.
> 
> I know of some young fellas getting less than they would on the dole...  and all they do all day is take crap from their employers.  I hate the way FAS turn a blind eye to employers paying the apprentice below the agreed industry standard rates.  Surely someone has to speak up for the participants of these apprenticeship programme and thrash out a better deal for them.




When people go for a degree from a college they get no money for doing it.

When people go to a firm for a trade they get paid and learn.


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## weejasy77 (5 Jul 2008)

When people train to be doctors solicitors etc they are learning all the time.  I'm not saying that all employers of apprentices are the same but the norm in my area is that the lesser experienced apprentices are given the jack hammer and told to mix concrete and never get to look at a hot press for nearly a year.

What are they learning about plumbing in that instance?  Does trainee solicitors be taught how to do filing when they are university?  For me if a tradesman needs a labourer.... then pay labourers wages not employ an apprentice on the promise of leanring the trade then hand him a jack hammer, cement mixer or a brush.


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## S.L.F (5 Jul 2008)

weejasy77 said:


> When people train to be doctors solicitors etc they are learning all the time.  I'm not saying that all employers of apprentices are the same but the norm in my area is that the lesser experienced apprentices are given the jack hammer and told to mix concrete and never get to look at a hot press for nearly a year.
> 
> What are they learning about plumbing in that instance?  Does trainee solicitors be taught how to do filing when they are university?  For me if a tradesman needs a labourer.... then pay labourers wages not employ an apprentice on the promise of leanring the trade then hand him a jack hammer, cement mixer or a brush.



Yes but you forget that you can't hand an apprentice a tool and expect him (or her) to know what to do with it and how to use it.

An apprenticeship is all about fine tuning the use of hands and you can't learn that from a book.


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## DavyJones (5 Jul 2008)

weejasy, are you an apprentice plumber?
I have lads working for me and there are days when I have to pick up a kango, why? because it's all part of the job. Less experianced apprentices have to do the donkey work cos lets face it thats all they can do. Trades are learnt over time everybody starts at the bottom. A good employer will have their staff working at the job that suits their skills at that particular moment.
It sounds like you got a rough boss or the trade doesn't suit you. Which ever way it is if you go on and qualify there will always be donkey work to be done. Thats the nature of the game.


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## S.L.F (5 Jul 2008)

DavyJones said:


> weejasy, are you an apprentice plumber?
> I have lads working for me and there are days when I have to pick up a kango, why? because it's all part of the job. Less experianced apprentices have to do the donkey work cos lets face it thats all they can do. Trades are learnt over time everybody starts at the bottom. A good employer will have their staff working at the job that suits their skills at that particular moment.
> It sounds like you got a rough boss or the trade doesn't suit you. Which ever way it is if you go on and qualify there will always be donkey work to be done. Thats the nature of the game.



I on occasion have people working for me and I still do sweeping when it is necessary or cleaning or what ever needs doing as Davey says its the nature of the game.

We do what we have to.


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## weejasy77 (5 Jul 2008)

I appreciate that hard labour is a part of all trades... but as I said before there are employers who exploit the low paid.  I feel more should be done by FAS to ensure that these employers are excluded from the programme.


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## S.L.F (5 Jul 2008)

weejasy77 said:


> I appreciate that hard labour is a part of all trades... but as I said before there are employers who exploit the low paid.  I feel more should be done by FAS to ensure that these employers are excluded from the programme.



I thought FAS was about the training of people, not what money they get.
I'd have thought that would be a different dept.
Employment maybe.


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## DavyJones (5 Jul 2008)

weejasy77 said:


> I appreciate that hard labour is a part of all trades... but as I said before there are employers who exploit the low paid.  I feel more should be done by FAS to ensure that these employers are excluded from the programme.



I see where you are coming from. the first three years of my app I worked for a gentleman and great tradesman, when I had a question he would take time to answer it. Even to this day I will ring him if I need advice. Best thing is because I have extra qualifications he some times rings me for advice, which gives me a great buzz.
I served my last year with a complete dick of a man. wouldn't say good morning and would send me to a job and assume I would complete it without bother. paid me app rates but expected qualified quality and speed. If I had started with him I wouldn't be a tradesman today. But if I'm honest he made me become a better tradesman because I had to be.
Are you an apprentice or were you one?


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## weejasy77 (5 Jul 2008)

DavyJones said:


> I see where you are coming from. the first three years of my app I worked for a gentleman and great tradesman, when I had a question he would take time to answer it. Even to this day I will ring him if I need advice. Best thing is because I have extra qualifications he some times rings me for advice, which gives me a great buzz.
> I served my last year with a complete dick of a man. wouldn't say good morning and would send me to a job and assume I would complete it without bother. paid me app rates but expected qualified quality and speed. If I had started with him I wouldn't be a tradesman today. But if I'm honest he made me become a better tradesman because I had to be.
> Are you an apprentice or were you one?



I packed in my office job last year to learn myself a trade... I started out with an absolute cowboy of a plumber.  He was never on time for work, expected the apprentices to work late to make up for his poor time keeping, would head off in the van with everyones lunch and not land back for hours leaving every1 without any tea/lunch.  He would lie constantly about everything (dont know why but this bothered me) and if any of the apprentices asked how something worked his response would have been you'll learn that when your away with FAS I havent got time here to baby sit you.  He always took short cuts and if he was ever found out he would humiliate one of the young fellas by shouting the head off them in front of the customers, even though they had nothing to do with the error.

I could write a book on him... but anyways I packed it in with him and am now currently seeking another employer.  When I approached FAS to explain that I didnt think he should be considered as a suitable person to be mentoring young people they stated they understood my concerns but werent willing to do anything about it.


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## Purple (5 Jul 2008)

weejasy77 said:


> When people train to be doctors solicitors etc they are learning all the time.


You must be joking.


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## Complainer (6 Jul 2008)

There is a concept of positive action in equality which supports actions necessary to create a level playing fields, e.g.

[broken link removed]

I guess that's what going on here, though I'm not sure that grants to businesses are the most effective approach here. I'd have thought that education and marketing targetted at girls of school-leaving age would be more effective.


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## S.L.F (6 Jul 2008)

So it is sexist then.


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## aircobra19 (6 Jul 2008)

Maybe if you looked at the FAS policies?



> *Promoting Equality, Diversity and Inclusion *
> 
> FÁS strives to ensure that its policies and programmes reflect best practice in social inclusion through increased participation and progression by marginalised groups, namely members of the traveller community, lone parents, early school leavers, ex-offenders, migrant workers and women wishing to return to the workforce.


 
http://www.fas.ie/en/Equality/default.htm

Its just life you'll get people who aren't good at what they do. Be that a boss, a plumber or some desk jockey in a faceless organisation etc. The trick is to realise it, and learn how to deal with them. Find who's responsible, send them a letter, get your policitican on it etc. But don't let it drag you down. Move past it.


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## S.L.F (6 Jul 2008)

The thing for me is where do you draw the line at what discrimination is

too fat
too thin
too tall
too short
where you come from
what religion you are
what your name is
how you speak
too ugly
too good-looking (that's my one)
too old
too young
bald
too much hair
face hair
bad dresser
bad breath

I just think it's unfair that there should be grants for employers to get female apprentices, no such grant applies for men to be secretaries or nurses.


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## stephnyc (7 Jul 2008)

S.L.F said:


> I just think it's unfair that there should be grants for employers to get female apprentices, no such grant applies for men to be secretaries or nurses.


 
Though I wouldnt be surprised to see something introduced for primary teaching 
http://www.education.ie/home/home.jsp?pcategory=10815&ecategory=32871&language=EN

People gaining work experience will always have to do grunt work.. being part of the workforce and learning the softer skills (time management/team work/etc) is a part of it too. When I trained for my profession we all shared stories of doing monotonous work such as data entry and filing.. but we were just glad to have any wages at all after 3 years in college


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## ClubMan (7 Jul 2008)

S.L.F said:


> I suppose in the same way there are very few blokes in
> 
> secretarial work, nursing, librarianship or personel
> 
> its just the way it is.


Are you sure about there being "very few blokes" in some of those sort of jobs? In my experience there are quite a few working as nurses, librarians and in _HR_.

By the way I don't think that anybody has posted the link to the scheme in question already?


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## ClubMan (7 Jul 2008)

weejasy77 said:


> Apprenticeship is just a form of slavery
> 
> The only winner is the greedy cowboy employers... it's a joke that it is not covered by minimum wage and that young fellas/cuddies are out there working for less than 200 euro a week for at least a 40 hour week.





weejasy77 said:


> I packed in my office job last year to learn myself a trade... I started out with an absolute cowboy of a plumber.


Probably not a good idea to generalise too much from your own individual bad experience?


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## sandrat (7 Jul 2008)

most men that are librarians are in the higher up managery type jobs so you don't see them in the branches


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## Diziet (7 Jul 2008)

S.L.F said:


> The thing for me is where do you draw the line at what discrimination is
> 
> too fat
> too thin
> ...




You draw the line at what the discrimination legislation says - that's what it is there for.

It is quite legitimate for organisations to create a scheme to create balance in the workforce, provided they don't create a permanent differential in salary for the employees. The comparison with nurses and secretaries is a poor one and comes across as rather emotive. Unless you can provide the data that is.


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## Purple (7 Jul 2008)

Diziet said:


> The comparison with nurses and secretaries is a poor one and comes across as rather emotive. Unless you can provide the data that is.


Are you suggesting that there is a gender balance in these two areas?


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## Diziet (7 Jul 2008)

Purple said:


> Are you suggesting that there is a gender balance in these two areas?



Not at all. However, the decision on grant provision as in the example, depends on the extent of the imbalance, not simply the existence of an imbalance.


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## DavyJones (7 Jul 2008)

ClubMan said:


> Are you sure about there being "very few blokes" in some of those sort of jobs? In my experience there are quite a few working as nurses, librarians and in _HR_.
> 
> By the way I don't think that anybody has posted the link to the scheme in question already?



Thats it, thanks, I would have done it but don't know how.

I have asked this question earlier, If it is acceptable for FAS to offer grants to females only, then is it ok for me to advertise for female apprentices only?
I have a feeling it's a big no-no.


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## Diziet (7 Jul 2008)

You are acting as an employer, so no. FAS is acting as a training/scheme provider, not an employer. It is an incentive, not a direct payment to the individual apprentice.

Should this be in Letting off Steam, or is it a genuine work question?


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## DavyJones (7 Jul 2008)

Diziet said:


> You are acting as an employer, so no. FAS is acting as a training/scheme provider, not an employer. It is an incentive, not a direct payment to the individual apprentice.
> 
> Should this be in Letting off Steam, or is it a genuine work question?



I am involved in apprentice training and this scheme struck me as being odd. Because there is a drop in apprentices (atleast in the trade I work), I think it would be a good idea to have a similar grant availible no matter what sex a trainee is.


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## S.L.F (8 Jul 2008)

Diziet said:


> FAS is acting as a training/scheme provider, not an employer. It is an incentive, not a direct payment to the individual apprentice.




Yes but FAS is a govt agency paid for with tax payers money, ie both men and women pay tax so why should women be the sole benificiaries.


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## ClubMan (8 Jul 2008)

sandrat said:


> most men that are librarians are in the higher up managery type jobs so you don't see them in the branches


There are plenty of "front desk" male librarians in the libraries that I visit regularly (_Cabra _and _Central/ILAC_). I recall there being quite a few in _Ballymun _and _Phibsboro _when I used to visit a few years back.



DavyJones said:


> Thats it, thanks, I would have done it but don't know how.


 contains, among other things, instructions on posting links.


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## aircobra19 (8 Jul 2008)

I guess you could email http://www.equality.ie/ and ask?


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## ClubMan (8 Jul 2008)

aircobra19 said:


> I guess you could email http://www.equality.ie/ and ask?


Now why didn't I think of that? 


ClubMan said:


> Maybe ask the the Equality Authority? Perhaps there is some loophole/exemption for this?


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## S.L.F (8 Jul 2008)

ClubMan said:


> There are plenty of "front desk" male librarians in the libraries that I visit regularly (_Cabra _and _Central/ILAC_). I recall there being quite a few in _Ballymun _and _Phibsboro _when I used to visit a few years back.
> 
> 
> contains, among other things, instructions on posting links.



My wife is a librarian for many years.
She interviews on a regular basis.
I asked her last night for her idea on % of men compared to women from her experience it would be 25% men to 75% women.

If you ask one of the librarians in those libraries they will give you the same general figures.

I'll be going through the posting guidelines myself.



aircobra19 said:


> I guess you could email http://www.equality.ie/ and ask?



I might do that.


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## aircobra19 (8 Jul 2008)

ClubMan said:


> Now why didn't I think of that?


 
I was repeating it for emphasis. 

But tbh who cares if it was said before. Its a valid means of communication to repeat something.

..ah go on,  go on, go on, go on, go on, go on, go on....


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## sandrat (8 Jul 2008)

ClubMan said:


> There are plenty of "front desk" male librarians in the libraries that I visit regularly (_Cabra _and _Central/ILAC_). I recall there being quite a few in _Ballymun _and _Phibsboro _when I used to visit a few years back.


 
They might not be librarians. Could be library assistants / summer / temporary staff.

I am a librarian and in a higher up grade and you will find for those interviews there are more men going for them percentage wise than the numbers in the lower grade jobs. Better be nice to S.L.F in case I'm going for any jobs soon!


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## ClubMan (8 Jul 2008)

S.L.F said:


> My wife is a librarian for many years.
> She interviews on a regular basis.
> I asked her last night for her idea on % of men compared to women from her experience it would be 25% men to 75% women.


Exactly. 25% is hardly "very few".


S.L.F said:


> I suppose in the same way there are very few blokes in
> 
> secretarial work, nursing, librarianship or personel





> I'll be going through the posting guidelines myself.


Eh?!


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## Diziet (8 Jul 2008)

S.L.F said:


> Yes but FAS is a govt agency paid for with tax payers money, ie both men and women pay tax so why should women be the sole benificiaries.



Sole beneficiaries is a bit strong IMO. As far as I can see the female apprentices get no extra pay. It simply shifts the entrance balance a little. 

Presumably the thinking is that, statistically, employers would be less inclined to offer female apprentice applicants a place (because there are so few in the trades). The relatively small grant is designed to overcome that hurdle.

Why is this worrying you so much?


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## S.L.F (8 Jul 2008)

You said



ClubMan said:


> By the way I don't think that anybody has posted the link to the scheme in question already?



Davey said



DavyJones said:


> Thats it, thanks, I would have done it but don't know how.



You said



ClubMan said:


> contains, among other things, instructions on posting links.



Then I said



S.L.F said:


> I'll be going through the posting guidelines myself.



Because I could use more knowledge on the ways of using AAM.

............................................................................................



ClubMan said:


> Exactly. 25% is hardly "very few".



Its not half and its only in the last couple of years that it has improved and this was without incentives of any kind.
So why should 1 half of our society get an extra advantage over the other.



Diziet said:


> Sole beneficiaries is a bit strong IMO. As far as I can see the female apprentices get no extra pay. It simply shifts the entrance balance a little.
> 
> Presumably the thinking is that, statistically, employers would be less inclined to offer female apprentice applicants a place (because there are so few in the trades). The relatively small grant is designed to overcome that hurdle.
> 
> Why is this worrying you so much?



Its not worrying me.

*Re: FAS grants for female apprentices, sexist?

*Yes it is!


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## Purple (8 Jul 2008)

S.L.F said:


> *Re: FAS grants for female apprentices, sexist?
> 
> *Yes it is!



I agree; it is.
I also agree that it's no big deal.


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