# Ban on selling alcohol in shops urged



## shnaek (25 Jan 2012)

From this article in the times:

[broken link removed]

"The committee’s chairman, Fine Gael TD Jerry Buttimer, said members believed the proliferation of outlets for alcohol had led to an increase in consumption."

"Members believed"? Are these people serious? Is this the criteria now behind legislation - that 'members believe'? They must really believe that the Irish people are stupid.


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## Sunny (25 Jan 2012)

I heard this last night and had to laugh. Do people really believe the price and the availability is really the main factor that makes people drink more? SOME people simply have an irresponsible attitude to drink. If they really want to do something constructive, put more resources into education, enforce under age drinking laws, increase penalties for drink related public disturbance offences and increase charges for anyone turning up at an A&E that is over the limit....


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## Latrade (25 Jan 2012)

Another  from Jerry:



> ”… It has become fashionable for people between the ages of 16 and 25 to consume alcohol. I am of the view that pictures of President Obama and Queen Elizabeth ll drinking Guinness send out the wrong message.


 
It's really only just become fashionable for the young to consume alcohol? 

I note he doesn't mention that based on CSO and Revenue figures. Easiest link is ABFI, they're a drinks industry lobby group but CSO and RC figures should be available.


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## TarfHead (25 Jan 2012)

Sunny said:


> If they really want to do something constructive, put more resources into education, enforce under age drinking laws, increase penalties for drink related public disturbance offences and increase charges for anyone turning up at an A&E that is over the limit....


 
Yeah, but that's hard. Much easier, and headline friendly, to do what they're doing. And, while they're at it, put out the word that the next time a Head of State come to visit, don't use a pint of Guinness as a photo op ?


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## Sunny (25 Jan 2012)

And maybe our wonderful politicians could show the way by not having Dail bars that serve alcohol or at least one that didn't serve cheap subsidised alcohol.


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## DB74 (25 Jan 2012)

They should reduce the legal drinking age to 16 and run campaigns to encourage people to drink in pubs instead of parks and playgrounds. If you learn to drink alcohol in a proper environment then you will learn to respect it a bit more.

Also the Queen didn't actually drink her Guinness so I don't see how refusing to touch the stuff is encouraging people to drink it!


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## RonanC (25 Jan 2012)

DB74 said:


> They should reduce the legal drinking age to 16 and run campaigns to encourage people to drink in pubs instead of parks and playgrounds. If you learn to drink alcohol in a proper environment then you will learn to respect it a bit more.


 
So, bar staff legally serving 16 year old's double vodkas and red bull all night long will help people learn to respect alcohol?


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## RonanC (25 Jan 2012)

I had this idea that Jerry Buttimer was a Doctor and would have first hand experence of dealing with alcohol abuse, but from doing a quick google search, it turns out he is a secondary school teacher. Maybe he still has first hand experience but in a different way, with students turning up for school with nasty hangovers.


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## DB74 (25 Jan 2012)

RonanC said:


> So, bar staff legally serving 16 year old's double vodkas and red bull all night long will help people learn to respect alcohol?



Fair enough

Maybe it's just my own experience

I started drinking in pubs when I was 16-17. You drank in the local pub where there were people of all ages, men and women. People still got drunk and all that goes with that but generally there wasn't really any muckin around because people just didn't stand for it in the community.

Making alcohol harder for teenagers to obtain doesn't mean that they won't obtain it and abuse it. Sticking them in a park with 24 cans isn't going to help anyone learn to drink responsibly. At least if there is some sort of indirect supervision, you might have some chance.

The legal drinking age is 16 in Germany I believe and AFAIK, they don't have the social problems with teenage drinking that we have.


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## RonanC (25 Jan 2012)

DB74 said:


> Fair enough
> 
> Maybe it's just my own experience
> 
> ...


 
Thing is, we cannot compare ourselves to the Germans though. They have a fear of even crossing the road on a red pedestrian light. They are educated from a very young age to respect society in general and laws are enforced no matter how small an offence. We can only really compare ourselves to our nearest neighbour, and they have just as bad a problem with alcohol in society. 

We can have all the legislation under the sun but if there is nobody to enforce it, or if we bring our children up to ignore the law, what is the point really? A mother/father sitting at home watching tv while drinking a bottle of savignon blanc or a merlot, and his/her young son or daughter watching him/her gives the message that drinking a bottle of wine while on your own watching tv is fully acceptable. The French and Italians think our wine drinking habits are totally crazy, drinking wine without food wouldnt be acceptable to them.

Fergal Quinn compared the selling of alcohol to the selling of products high in sugar. He has a point. Both will eventually kill you and both will cost the state huge amounts of money in health bills.


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## shnaek (25 Jan 2012)

CSO stats show alchol consumption in Ireland has dropped over the last 4 years. So isn't it then the case that the low cost alchol has caused a reduction in drinking? 

Isn't this the sort of stats that the govt trot out all the time when justifying another one of their offensive intrusions into our lives? 

But now that the stats don't suit we have 'Members Beliefs' (caps intentional) instead. 

The same people that have brought us bankrupt Ireland are now bringing us another load of nonsense instead of fixing the problem we elected them to fix - cronyism and corruption. It's enough to drive you to drink...


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## RonanC (25 Jan 2012)

shnaek said:


> The same people that have brought us bankrupt Ireland


 
Eh.... that would be the Banks


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## shnaek (25 Jan 2012)

RonanC said:


> Eh.... that would be the Banks



Nope. Banks would have gone bust, capitalist style, if it weren't for the politicians.


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## RonanC (25 Jan 2012)

shnaek said:


> Nope. Banks would have gone bust, capitalist style, if it weren't for the politicians.


 
And nobody would have any money at all, all savings wiped out. No money in ATM's... sounds good doesnt it.


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## Sunny (25 Jan 2012)

shnaek said:


> Nope. Banks would have gone bust, capitalist style, if it weren't for the politicians.


 


RonanC said:


> And nobody would have any money at all, all savings wiped out. No money in ATM's... sounds good doesnt it.


 
It's like 2008 again!


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## shnaek (25 Jan 2012)

RonanC said:


> And nobody would have any money at all, all savings wiped out. No money in ATM's... sounds good doesnt it.


But it was the politicians who made this choice for us. You were pointing out that the banks were responsible for our bankruptcy. Now you are saying the politicians were right to intervene. That may or may not be the case, but it was the politicians who made this decision, not the banks. It was the politicians who brought us in to the Euro. It was the politicians who failed to competently regulate our finance industry. It was the politicians who inflated our property bubble. Thus it was the politicians, like I said, who are most responsible for our country's bankruptcy. This is what they should now be concentrating on trying to fix, instead of setting up committees intent on directing policy based on a set of collective 'beliefs'.


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## Latrade (25 Jan 2012)

Sunny said:


> It's like 2008 again!


 
Yeah, I need a drink now. Anyone fancy a pint?


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## RonanC (25 Jan 2012)

Latrade said:


> Yeah, I need a drink now. Anyone fancy a pint?


 
I'll have a Bulmers please


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## Firefly (25 Jan 2012)

RonanC said:


> I'll have a Bulmers please


 
Why not go back to 2006 and we could all have a Moet? !


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## Purple (25 Jan 2012)

Latrade said:


> Yeah, I need a drink now. Anyone fancy a pint?


 Yes, I'd kill for one right now.



RonanC said:


> I'll have a Bulmers please


 If there's nothing else.



Firefly said:


> Why not go back to 2006 and we could all have a Moet? !


 I was on Guinness or Carlsburg back then (and still am).


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## ney001 (25 Jan 2012)

I have found lately when out and about that very few younger drinkers particularly females drink beer - they all drink the sugary drinks, wkd and smirnoff mixed drinks etc and personally I think this is part of the problem. They never learned to know their limits by drinking drinks that actually taste of alcohol, they never learned to appreciate beer/guinness even wine - all they taste is sugar so they can keep drinking and drinking.  When I first started drinking (Heineken and still drinking it) the closest thing to an alcopop was a 'Snowball' and god knows you wouldn't be caught dead with one of those! These kids don't drink for the taste of it, they don't appreciate the taste of a nice cold beer on a Friday evening after work, they drink to get drunk as quickly as possible without actually having to taste alcohol.


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## Purple (25 Jan 2012)

ney001 said:


> I have found lately when out and about that very few younger drinkers particularly females drink beer - they all drink the sugary drinks, wkd and smirnoff mixed drinks etc and personally I think this is part of the problem. They never learned to know their limits by drinking drinks that actually taste of alcohol, they never learned to appreciate beer/guinness even wine - all they taste is sugar so they can keep drinking and drinking.  When I first started drinking (Heineken and still drinking it) the closest thing to an alcopop was a 'Snowball' and god knows you wouldn't be caught dead with one of those! These kids don't drink for the taste of it, they don't appreciate the taste of a nice cold beer on a Friday evening after work, they drink to get drunk as quickly as possible without actually having to taste alcohol.



I’m inclined to agree with you there.

I also agree that it’s a good idea to have children start appreciating alcohol at home when they are teenagers. A small glass of wine or a small glass of beer with a meal lets them appreciate how the taste of the food and drink complement each other.


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## micmclo (25 Jan 2012)

I've heard that before from a few sources, well mainly my French teachers

French people may drink the same as the Irish and Brits [yes, I know I'm throwing in generalizations]

But they have a few glasses in the evening whereas here it may be nothing for days and days and then huge sessions at the weekend

The amount of alcohol on a weekly basis could be roughly the same when you add it all up
But one is sensible and the other is binge drinking




RonanC said:


> I'll have a Bulmers please



Tipperarys finest


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## One (25 Jan 2012)

I'm going against the general opinion here on this one. I think the sale of alcohol should be banned from supermarkets, petrol stations, and corner shops. I hate to see below cost selling of alcohol. I wish alcohol was sold only in pubs.


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## micmclo (25 Jan 2012)

It's attitude and culture that causes problems, not availability.

In Germany you can buy beer in vending machines.

I worked in the Dublin branch of a Dutch company and we had beer in the canteen. No bother to have a few if if you were working late or have one or three or four before heading out Friday evening. 
I've never ever seen an Irish company do this.

Drink is everywhere and no issues

But here we impose an early closing time on offies [lobbying by publicans ], restrictions on when they can sell like after midday on Sundays and responsible drinking ads all over TV
Do you remember holy hour in pubs, maybe showing my age here 

Tbh I think if there were twenty four hour licences in Ireland the country may go mad for a few months and then the novelty would wear off and there wouldn't be this binge culture we have


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## blueband (25 Jan 2012)

One said:


> I hate to see below cost selling of alcohol. I wish alcohol was sold only in pubs.


yes you and every pub owner in the country! after all they got away with robbing us blind for years.


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## micmclo (25 Jan 2012)

Indeed and the main ripoff isn't even alcohol, it's minerals

Five forty in my local for a rock shandy, gwanuptheyardwiththat

Why it'd almost drive you to drink


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## thedaras (25 Jan 2012)

I dont know the answer to the problem,but my God,this country should be shaped like a pint glass at this stage!
It is sickening to see so many young kids locked out of their brains.
One of my teens said that,if they do this when they supposedly have no legal access to alcohol what are they going to be like when they can legally purchase it..
It seems to me that their are off licences selling to people who are underage,and in fact last week I was at a local supermarket and saw some young girls trying to buy some,I said to the young guy at the till,I hope you dont intend to let them buy that,It wasnt received very well.Outside the same shop their was a group of young boys asking older ones to buy them beer..
Out of a class of 30 my daughter said the majority of the kids drink,and they are all around 14/15..Its just crazy.

I know several parents who give the kids a drink,when asked why,they say well sure if I give him two or three cans then he wont be out of his head! 

It is a sad reality that it seems to be the norm and not much has changed since my days,in fact it was the same then,so all the stuff to date doesnt seem to have had much of an impact..( not selling it in off-licence after ten for example,what in the name of God does that do,except people stock up earlier!)

I think it starts at home,most of the parents who give their kids drink are in my experience , (Heavier than normal )drinkers themselves.

I have been lucky and my kids( the older ones ) didnt want too drink,they do now,but its nothing like a lot of the young adults who they pal around with,and the younger one who has to put up with a lot of her classmates hangovers/crying/attention seeking/arguing/vomiting etc,has seen this and decided not to go there.

I dont think its a case of "But for the grace of God",its no accident,we have spent their entire lives educating them about drink..at every opportunity we get ,we talk about the consequences of the abuse of alcohol.
I dont think telling them their liver will be damaged when they are older is any use either,it just goes over their heads.
Making it more expensive is a start..


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## liaconn (26 Jan 2012)

One said:


> I'm going against the general opinion here on this one. I think the sale of alcohol should be banned from supermarkets, petrol stations, and corner shops. I hate to see below cost selling of alcohol. I wish alcohol was sold only in pubs.


 

But then responsible drinkers will suffer because of the irresponsible ones. What about people who can't get out to the pub because of babysitting problems, distance or whatever and would like to unwind with a couple of glasses of wine or a beer on a Friday night?


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## shnaek (26 Jan 2012)

liaconn said:


> But then responsible drinkers will suffer because of the irresponsible ones. What about people who can't get out to the pub because of babysitting problems, distance or whatever and would like to unwind with a couple of glasses of wine or a beer on a Friday night?



The responsible always suffer because of the irresponsible. This happens in every facet of our society. This has happened throughout history, and will only change when our leaders have an epiphany in the way they think. 

We cannot allow the people who run this country to bring in laws which are not based on fact and indepth study but are instead based on the unfounded beliefs of a set of individuals. This is not the road for a modern democracy to take.


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## june (30 Jan 2012)

I dont drink , husband drinks rarely if out. My kids wont see drinking in the home but I am not naive enough to think that will stop them! I can only hope that someday they will figure out that you dont actually need alcohol to relax and have a good time. Shock horror!!


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## thedaras (30 Jan 2012)

Hi june, I think the issue is as you mentioned,kids need to know that you dont need alcohol to relax and have a good time..
I wonder if Irish kids are not the most confident,and thats why so many of them think they need to drink alcohol..
Perhaps working on their confidence would be better than telling them their liver will be affected when they are older/not selling alcohol at certain times etc.


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## Ceist Beag (30 Jan 2012)

liaconn said:


> But then responsible drinkers will suffer because of the irresponsible ones. What about people who can't get out to the pub because of babysitting problems, distance or whatever and would like to unwind with a couple of glasses of wine or a beer on a Friday night?



Suffer? Come on liaconn a bit of perspective here. Having to go to an off-license to purchase some alcohol can hardly be described as suffering! I'm in favour of banning alcohol sales in anything other than pubs or off-licenses. I think it is far too easy for under age children to buy drink in supermarkets or petrol stations where the attendant simply doesn't care about checking for ID or such. Those in pubs or off-licenses would be far more concerned imho. I agree with the points that it is not just a matter of restricting access, that there should be more done to improve our attitude to alcohol, but personally I have no problem with the idea of buying drink in a pub or off-license if it can make it harder for under age children getting their hands on it.


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## shnaek (30 Jan 2012)

Ceist Beag said:


> Suffer? Come on liaconn a bit of perspective here. Having to go to an off-license to purchase some alcohol can hardly be described as suffering! I'm in favour of banning alcohol sales in anything other than pubs or off-licenses. I think it is far too easy for under age children to buy drink in supermarkets or petrol stations where the attendant simply doesn't care about checking for ID or such. Those in pubs or off-licenses would be far more concerned imho. I agree with the points that it is not just a matter of restricting access, that there should be more done to improve our attitude to alcohol, but personally I have no problem with the idea of buying drink in a pub or off-license if it can make it harder for under age children getting their hands on it.



Point is, there is no evidence to back this up! It's just some random 'belief'. Consumption of Alchol in Ireland has dropped for the last four years, even as prices have dropped and availability is better. So if anything the evidence points to the opposite to this ludicrous plan.


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## Sunny (30 Jan 2012)

shnaek said:


> Point is, there is no evidence to back this up! It's just some random 'belief'. Consumption of Alchol in Ireland has dropped for the last four years, even as prices have dropped and availability is better. So if anything the evidence points to the opposite to this ludicrous plan.


 
Exactly. Anyone know someone who gave up smoking because the price went up, advertising was restricted or even the smoking ban in pubs? The only reason I hear people use is for personal health and the various campaigns have probably helped educate people of the damage that smoking does. Trying to change behaviour by telling people where and when they can buy something is ridiculous. They might as well make alcohol illegal if they are so concerned with it.


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## T McGibney (30 Jan 2012)

RonanC said:


> Thing is, we cannot compare ourselves to the Germans though. They have a fear of even crossing the road on a red pedestrian light. They are educated from a very young age to respect society in general and laws are enforced no matter how small an offence.



Are you saying that Germans don't abuse alcohol or drink to excess? From my limited experience of Germany as a tourist, its patently clear that their drinking habits are not a whole lot different than ours or the British. Except that many Germans like to drink beer by the litre and there is greater acceptance of drink-driving (not drunk-driving) there than here. If you ever attend a German town or community festival, you will notice that the teenagers keep the off-licences very busy and they're just as capable of drinking in gangs in fields and parks as Irish teenagers are.


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## MrMan (30 Jan 2012)

Ceist Beag said:


> Suffer? Come on liaconn a bit of perspective here. Having to go to an off-license to purchase some alcohol can hardly be described as suffering! I'm in favour of banning alcohol sales in anything other than pubs or off-licenses. I think it is far too easy for under age children to buy drink in supermarkets or petrol stations where the attendant simply doesn't care about checking for ID or such. Those in pubs or off-licenses would be far more concerned imho. I agree with the points that it is not just a matter of restricting access, that there should be more done to improve our attitude to alcohol, but personally I have no problem with the idea of buying drink in a pub or off-license if it can make it harder for under age children getting their hands on it.



I would imagine he means suffer in a financial sense, because as soon as we wipe out the supermarket avenue prices will fly up. 
I also don't understand where you are getting the idea that ID checking is more prevalent in an off licence over a super market? I was in Tesco the other day and a group of French students were denied the sale of alcohol because they couldn't produce an Irish passport! It was funny to see them try to get their frustrated message across given that they were over 18 and showing French passports. Apparently it is Tesco policy that only Irish or British passports are accepted as ID, so whilst it is a bit mad, we can feel safe that not only is it difficult for underage people to purchase alcohol in a supermarket, young people from other countries also like to get hammered from time to time and it is not our national curse.


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## T McGibney (30 Jan 2012)

MrMan said:


> Apparently it is Tesco policy that only Irish or British passports are accepted as ID,



I fear that Tesco are ripe for a discrimination case there...


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## Ceist Beag (30 Jan 2012)

shnaek said:


> Point is, there is no evidence to back this up! It's just some random 'belief'. Consumption of Alchol in Ireland has dropped for the last four years, even as prices have dropped and availability is better. So if anything the evidence points to the opposite to this ludicrous plan.



Fair point shnaek, I admit it is more a belief than anything based in fact. It just stacks up as more logical that cheaper prices would mean easier access to juveniles, and likewise that those whose livelihood is purely to sell alcohol would be more concerned with abiding by the rules than those who sell it as one of thousands of products. All very generalised thinking I admit so it would be interesting to see what studies have been done in this area before reaching any conclusion.


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## truthseeker (30 Jan 2012)

micmclo said:


> It's attitude and culture that causes problems, not availability.



Couldnt agree more. 

The entire culture here is based around alcohol. In Ireland a wedding is a full days drinking session, and lately Ive noticed people inviting me to weddings and asking me to stay a second night so that we can all go out boozing again!
Christenings are another booze up.
There are people who consider it 'normal' to go out on Friday night and then continue to drink for the entire weekend - punctuated by takeaway food.
If you dont drink people think there is something wrong with you.
I was at a BBQ last summer and one of the guests was from South Africa - she thinks Irish people at a BBQ just want to get the food out of the way so they can carry on drinking. 
City centre (any city in the country) on Friday night or Saturday night is just crowds of staggering drunks, falling around the place. 
I went out for an xmas do and there were people practically crawling around doing 'the twelve pubs of xmas' - and having a pint in every pub - is anyone going to be in anything but a terrible state after that?


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## michaelm (1 Feb 2012)

shnaek said:


> Consumption of Alchol in Ireland has dropped for the last four years, even as prices have dropped and availability is better.


Has it dropped significantly?  Perhaps the figures are affected by young Irish and non-Irish nationals leaving.  

For sure it's not a cost or availability issue, it's simply a matter of attitude.  The State should manage the expectations of Pubs & Off Licences, that if they serve drunken or under age people they will be closed for a period (and if they repeatedly do so the closure periods should lengthen).  Also manage the expectation of drinkers that if they are falling about in public, a danger to themselves or others, they'll spend a night in a Drunk Tank and pay a premium for the pleasure.  Courts should not view the excuse of drunkenness as a mitigating factor but rather it should militate against lenient sentences.


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## T McGibney (1 Feb 2012)

michaelm said:


> Also manage the expectation of drinkers that if they  are falling about in public, a danger to themselves or others, they'll  spend a night in a Drunk Tank and pay a premium for the pleasure



All very well, but how do we square this with the heavy cuts in the Garda budget and Garda overtime, with more to come?



michaelm said:


> Courts should not view the excuse of drunkenness as a mitigating factor  but rather it should militate against lenient sentences.



I thought they stopped doing this around 1960 but I could be wrong.


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## michaelm (1 Feb 2012)

T McGibney said:


> All very well, but how do we square this with the heavy cuts in the Garda budget and Garda overtime, with more to come?


I think such policies would pay for themselves by cutting anti-social crime and easing the strain on A&Es.  If you charge €250 for a night in the Drunk Tank (stopped out of your welfare/tax credits if you don't pay promptly) it might even turn a profit.  Ultimately it could change the tolerance to public drunkenness.  Likewise if Pubs and Off Licences had a genuine fear of being forced to close they would be more rigorous.


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## T McGibney (1 Feb 2012)

michaelm said:


> I think such policies would pay for themselves by cutting anti-social crime and easing the strain on A&Es.  If you charge €250 for a night in the Drunk Tank (stopped out of your welfare/tax credits if you don't pay promptly) it might even turn a profit.  Ultimately it could change the tolerance to public drunkenness.  Likewise if Pubs and Off Licences had a genuine fear of being forced to close they would be more rigorous.



 Sorry, this frankly smacks of the sort of hardman police state carryon that was fashionable for a while in 1970s South America.

Its hard to believe it would be self-financing. Heavy-handed policing and detention of 'drunks' (define, please??) might equally lead to increased social disorder, (some drunks like to hit back when collared 'unfairly' by police), higher legal costs, ('my client was arrested illegally, M'lud') and waves of costly litigation ('Mlud, my client was injured by another drunk while in detention and now deserves compensation') by real or perceived 'innocent victims'. It might well 'change the tolerance to public drunkenness', but it might also weaken the authority of the police and State. Not too many Gardai are calling for the return of the Heavy Gang.

I'm not that fond either of the notion of families going hungry cos Dad's drunk tank fine got stopped from his wages or dole cheque.


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## michaelm (1 Feb 2012)

T McGibney said:


> Sorry, this frankly smacks of the sort of hardman police state carryon that was fashionable for a while in 1970s South America.


Meh, I'm not advocating Death Squads .  More thinking in general of the broken window theory which worked well in New York.  I do think the State should probably double the number of Gardaí.





T McGibney said:


> I'm not that fond either of the notion of families going hungry cos Dad's drunk tank fine got stopped from his wages or dole cheque.


Be careful that some Dad who's just drank his wages/dole doesn't set fire to your straw man as he stumbles home to his battered wife and hungry kids .


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## T McGibney (1 Feb 2012)

michaelm said:


> I do think the State should probably double the number of Gardaí.


In the current budgetary situation? even if we wanted to, the EU/IMF would hardly sanction it.



michaelm said:


> Be careful that some Dad who's just drank  his wages/dole doesn't set fire to your straw man as he stumbles home to  his battered wife and hungry kids .


Fair enough. But I meant it as a serious point.


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