# Put up gate to prevent dumping and messing, council say it's an illegal development!



## paddywhacker (2 Feb 2008)

I posted before about problems I was having with dumping, anti-social behaviour (drug-taking & drinking) on the right of way to my property.

I complained to the council and guards numerous times about it but was wasting me time and was at my wits end over it. 

It got so bad that before Christmas I cleared away all the rubbish and graffiti, and went and erected electronic gates at the entrance to the right of way in order to keep the messers out. So far its worked and the place is all tidied up and clean then yesterday I get a letter from the council saying the gate constitutes illegal development! 

Can't believe that for years they ignored all the messing and dumping going on around the place and then when I go and do something to tidy it up and deal with the problem, I get told quicksmart its illegal!

What are my options? Can the council make me take the gate down? If I do its giving carte blanche to the undesirables to continue with their drugtaking etc which will be a disaster as if I ever go to sell the property I haven't a hope as the place will be in such a state...

And I had no idea you needed planning for a miserable bloody gate.......


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## GOBSTOPPER (2 Feb 2008)

*Re: Put up gate to prevent dumping and messing, council say it's illegal!*

I know alot of lane ways in Dublin have been closed and the right of way extinguished ONCE all of the landowners abutting the lane way agreed to it ,and would draw up an undertaking to maintain the area . some lane ways now have gates with keys only given to adjoining landowners.maybe you could do something similar.I would write back asking exactly why it constitutes illegal development! sometimes a 2 m wall wouldn't be illegal while a metal fence or gate would be an illegal development! try and meet with your local TD to discuss your problems and your local top Garda. GOOD LUCK. Check out www.dublincity.ie and do a search for extinguishing rights of way for some more info.


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## murphaph (2 Feb 2008)

*Re: Put up gate to prevent dumping and messing, council say it's illegal!*

Play them at their own game perhaps. Apply for retention, get refused, appeal to ABP etc. 

This country is a joke. The council can at will erect gates/walls to prevent "anti social behaviour" instead of the guards tackling the root cause scumbags, yet when a private individual attempts to do the same they are penalised!


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## ClubMan (2 Feb 2008)

*Re: Put up gate to prevent dumping and messing, council say it's illegal!*



paddywhacker said:


> What are my options? Can the council make me take the gate down?


Have you consulted with a solicitor yet?


> I was having with dumping, anti-social behaviour (drug-taking & drinking) on the right of way to my property.
> 
> ...
> 
> And I had no idea you needed planning for a miserable bloody gate.......


No offence but I find it extremely difficult to believe that anybody would assume that one could erect a gate closing off a right of way without some sort of official permission being required first.


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## paddywhacker (2 Feb 2008)

*Re: Put up gate to prevent dumping and messing, council say it's illegal!*

Haven't managed to speak to my solicitor yet as I only got the letter yesterday evening. Clubman, you'll see from my previous posts that I've tried at length to contact the owner of the adjoining site (only other person that has legal use of this right of way) but their land registry details are out of date so I can't locate them.

As I said, I was at my wits end complaining and haranguing the council to do something about it (there is a ex-council estate nearby who's inhabitants are causing all these problems) so having no other choice decided in the end to just do something myself. After all I'm the only one who's being affected by these problems. Owner of adjoining site has never made an attempt to maintain the place or address the probs happening on his land. I've had break-in attempts, boy racers racing up and down the ROW and doing handbreak turns in my driveway, so to think that the council can just turn around NOW and take an interest when I'm only trying to clean up the place and stop the messing is a complete kick in the teeth! I work hard, pay my taxes and yet these messers are allowed run rings around the place, taking drugs outside the entrance to my place and covering the place in rubbish and graffiti and I get penalised!


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## paddywhacker (2 Feb 2008)

*Re: Put up gate to prevent dumping and messing, council say it's illegal!*

Can I just add so as not to cause confusion that this right of way is not used to access the council estate - it is only there for the benefit of the two properties (my place and the vacant site) so the shysters have no business being there other than to cause trouble. I'm not blocking their 'right of way', I'm just trying to keep them at arms length!


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## murphaph (2 Feb 2008)

*Re: Put up gate to prevent dumping and messing, council say it's illegal!*

who owns the laneway to the two properties?


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## paddywhacker (4 Feb 2008)

*Re: Put up gate to prevent dumping and messing, council say it's illegal!*

It passes through the adjoining site so its legally 'owned' by the adjoining vacant site but the right to pass over has always been granted to my place. It's a private right of way that ends at my place so we are the only two who need to (and should) use it. But the owner of the site hasn't touched the place in years, hasn't a notion what's going on and I don't think he'd care either.  I haven't a hope of letting them know either way.


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## ClubMan (4 Feb 2008)

*Re: Put up gate to prevent dumping and messing, council say it's illegal!*



paddywhacker said:


> It's a private right of way


Is that not an oxymoron? Isn't a right of way something that can be used by the general public?


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## csirl (4 Feb 2008)

*Re: Put up gate to prevent dumping and messing, council say it's illegal!*

The land belongs to the neighbouring site?

If this is the case, then the problem over the years has been that your neighbour has had no interest in securing his/her land. The council would not have the right to secure land they do not own, however, there may be a case for the council taking over the site as derelict land?

Is there any chance that you could get agreement from your neighbour to erect the gates and apply for planning permission (if it is required) as it is private land. I'd imagine that the ROW only applied to you and your neighbour & so if you both agree, you both can close it.


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## paddywhacker (4 Feb 2008)

*Re: Put up gate to prevent dumping and messing, council say it's illegal!*

Yes this is what I've been trying to do for the past while but the owner of the neighbouring site cannot be tracked down. I've tried land registry, the council, everything to try and trace him but the address the land registry has is not valid. He could be deceased for all I know which is why I felt I had to do something regardless. And that's why I'm so teed off that the council are only taking an interest now. 

Clubman yes, there is a difference between a public and private right of way. Ours is  private as it passes across private land and is the result of a longstanding legal agreement between the original two landowners. Hence my decision to gate it off...


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## ClubMan (4 Feb 2008)

*Re: Put up gate to prevent dumping and messing, council say it's illegal!*



paddywhacker said:


> Clubman yes, there is a difference between a public and private right of way. Ours is  private as it passes across private land and is the result of a longstanding legal agreement between the original two landowners. Hence my decision to gate it off...


OK - my earlier comments were made on the understanding that this was a public right of way and would need extinguishment and planning to gate off like this. A private right of way may not require extinguishment but I presume that planning might be (and seems to be) an issue.


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## paddywhacker (4 Feb 2008)

*Re: Put up gate to prevent dumping and messing, council say it's illegal!*

Evidently yes. Seeing as they've deemed it illegal, I suppose what I'm wondering is, can I just apply for retention on it now? I'm a bit at a loss as since before I bought it there's been pillars at the entrance to the ROW so for council to say that I need planning to hang a couple of gates on these seems a bit much?


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## Welfarite (4 Feb 2008)

*Re: Put up gate to prevent dumping and messing, council say it's illegal!*

I would be curious to know as to how the council became aware of the erection of the gate. It is doubtful that an official  happened to be passing by and noticed it. Or maybe  the graffiti artists and winos are objecting to the council!

From what you say, nobody else had any interest in the right of way up to the erection of the gate. Maybe if you asked the council where this is coming from?


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## MOB (4 Feb 2008)

*Re: Put up gate to prevent dumping and messing, council say it's illegal!*

I think you need to check with the Council as to why they say this is an unauthorised development.  In many cases, a gate is in fact an exempt development.


I used to be an expert on this precise area (had a High Court case about it), but I am afraid I have forgotten the law.  But it wasn't rocket science then, and I don't suppose a lot has changed.


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## csirl (4 Feb 2008)

*Re: Put up gate to prevent dumping and messing, council say it's illegal!*

Its possible that the council have deemed it an unauthorised development solely because you constructed it on land you do not legally own rather than because the gate doesnt comply with planning guidelines. You should ask the council for the specific reason that they have deemed it unauthorised. 

The good news is that if you appeal the decision, you are only appealing the specific reason orginally given - they cant bring in other issues at a later date. If the reason given is NOT that you dont own the land, there may be hope - maybe you can win on appeal or re-apply with some changes to the gates so they do fit with the guidelines.


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## paddywhacker (4 Feb 2008)

*Re: Put up gate to prevent dumping and messing, council say it's illegal!*

Spoke to the council this afternoon and they will only say they got a 'report' about the gates so I can only assume it's some shyster who's miffed about being turfed out of his drugs den. Can you believe that?!!

When I raised the reasons I put up the gate the first place eg dangerous and anti-social behaviour by their tenants, I was simply told 'not our department' which really gets my goat! I rang the guards who told me they'd only be too happy to give me a letter confirming that my actions have had a positive effect on the area - they've seen the gate and think it was a great idea to block it up, less nooks for the shysters to hide in. But it really galls me that the council are making me jump through hoops for this when all around me others are taking the p*** and getting away with it!


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## Welfarite (4 Feb 2008)

*Re: Put up gate to prevent dumping and messing, council say it's illegal!*

Understand your frustration. Good to have the Garda on your side though. I reckon, as Gobstopper suggested earlier, a visit to your local TD or councillor's weekly clinic, armed with a letter from the local Garda, as well as a threat to publicise their reaction to your positive actions in the local paper might prompt them to file the matter behind a piano! It wouldn't be the first time it was done....


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## csirl (4 Feb 2008)

*Re: Put up gate to prevent dumping and messing, council say it's illegal!*



> So far its worked and the place is all tidied up and clean then yesterday I get a letter from the council saying the gate constitutes illegal development!


 


> I rang the guards who told me they'd only be too happy to give me a letter confirming that my actions have had a positive effect on the area - they've seen the gate and think it was a great idea to block it up, less nooks for the shysters to hide in.


 
Just to square things off, I'd recommend writing back to the council with a short 2-3 line letter to the effect of....

"I do not believe the erection of the gate constitutes illegal development. It has been erected to prevent severe anti-social behaviour taking place on private property. The erection of this gate has the full support of the local Gardai - see attached letter - who consider that it will be effective in reducing this anti-social behaviour.

Yours etc."

Just a couple of lines to square of the councils inquiries and so they have a copy of the Gardai letter plus a phrase to the effect that it is private property on file (the complainer may have been under the impression that it was council property). You've effectively put the ball back in the councils court and unless they have both the will (which they will not following receipt of the Garda letter) and cast iron legal reasons why the gate should not be erected, then they will forget the whole thing. The worst they can do is write back with specific reasons why you cant have the gate, in which case you have something to work with in order to get permission.



> Understand your frustration. Good to have the Garda on your side though. I reckon, as Gobstopper suggested earlier, a visit to your local TD or councillor's weekly clinic, armed with a letter from the local Garda, as well as a threat to publicise their reaction to your positive actions in the local paper might prompt them to file the matter behind a piano! It wouldn't be the first time it was done....


 
I'd see this as being unnecessary at this stage - dont cause a fuss until you have to - the simple letter above may end the matter.


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## murphaph (4 Feb 2008)

*Re: Put up gate to prevent dumping and messing, council say it's illegal!*

A lot of councils shy away from legal action as it eats into their budget. A council planning dept. friend of the family told me that once.


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## z103 (4 Feb 2008)

*Re: Put up gate to prevent dumping and messing, council say it's illegal!*

Maybe you could try ignoring the letters form the council. Only act if they threaten to remove the gates or take legal action.


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## paddywhacker (5 Feb 2008)

*Re: Put up gate to prevent dumping and messing, council say it's illegal!*

Well, I've already rung them so ignoring them isn't an option. Am hoping that the back up letter from the gardai might sort it but still can't help feeling miffed that they only targeted me and not the messers.


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