# Accountancy Fees



## widebody (26 Sep 2012)

I know these types of posts are a pain but we're looking to change accountants and the quotes we're getting are ridiculously varied.

Our company does about 600k per annum, we do all our own computerised book-keeping, VAT returns and P30/35. We give our accountants a USB key annually with our accounts, they provide us with unaudited final accounts and adjustments. They also do the 2 x directors personal tax returns, which are very basic. All other queries are billed.

What would be a fair price for the above?

Many thanks in advance for any info/experiences.


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## Paddy199 (27 Sep 2012)

Do you give them reconciliations and how many adjustments do they give you?


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## widebody (27 Sep 2012)

Thanks Paddy. Bank is reconciled are we get 20-30 adjustments to line up our accounts with their system. Usually the adjustments just move items between codes.


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## T McGibney (28 Sep 2012)

Impossible to answer this without even the most basic information, eg nature of business, volume and profile of transactions, number of employees, exposure to VAT/RCT etc, tax and company law compliance history, etc.


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## Importer (28 Sep 2012)

My experience at the moment is that there is a lot of "extra capacity" among accountants and most of them will bite your hand off for any sort of work.
I think you shouldnt have any trouble in finding a good and competent Accountant who will do it for 500 euro..

When I was a young Accountant many moons ago, Accountants were fewer in numbers and commanded much higher fees. Unfortunately the supply and demand curver has shifted dramatically since then in favor of the client

Look for a young dynamic person building a business.

Avoid the fat cats.


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## T McGibney (28 Sep 2012)

Importer said:


> My experience at the moment is that there is a lot of "extra capacity" among accountants and most of them will bite your hand off for any sort of work.
> I think you shouldnt have any trouble in finding a good and competent Accountant who will do it for 500 euro..
> ...
> Look for a young dynamic person building a business.



They won't be young, dynamic nor building a business for too much longer if they're willing to take on accounts preparation, CT1 returns and CRO compliance assignments for a €600k turnover firm for the princely sum of €500.


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## Tomorrow (28 Sep 2012)

T McGibney said:


> They won't be young, dynamic nor building a business for too much longer if they're willing to take on accounts preparation, CT1 returns and CRO compliance assignments for a €600k turnover firm for the princely sum of €500.


 

Totall agree - not a chance of getting all that done correctly for €500.

Impossible to give any sort of figure based on the info provided.

Call around a few accountants, meet them, ask them to submit their quotes for your business.


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## T McGibney (28 Sep 2012)

Shopping around on the basis of quotes is largely a waste of time - it may (or may not) get you a cheap price but it will be no indicator of reliability, independence or the common sense wisdom one should expect from a professional service provider. Best option is to get recommendations from trusted friends & contacts, and work from there.


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## Brendan Burgess (28 Sep 2012)

To minimise these types of questions, would it be possible to do a typical quote for "model" company or series of companies? 

*Company type: *
Limited company 
wholesale Distribution  (some industries would be dearer e.g. construction) 
two directors and shareholders 
turnover €1m 
Profitable 
Employs a bookkeeper who does the paye, vat, bank reconciliations etc 

*Fee for *
Prepare final accounts 
statutory audit 
Corporation Tax returns 
Companies Office returns 

€1,000 - €2,000 

Factors which push up costs towards the higher end 
Problems or errors in bookkeeping 
Delay in providing information 
Accounting issues - e.g. valuation of stocks or debtors 
Tax planning issues 
Tax problems 
Poor financial knowledge or experience of directors 
History of tax or other problems 
Complex company structure e.g. subsidiaries 
solvency issues 

*Fee for directors' tax returns : *€300 - €500 each Assumes salaries the main source of income 

Factors which push up fees 
Other income e.g. rental profits to be calculated
Delivering information on 15th October 
Lots of questions


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## T McGibney (28 Sep 2012)

Brendan,

The seriousness & complexity of statutory audit means that you won't get an €1m company audit (including accounts preparation and the extras) done for €2k unless major corners are being cut.

Factors which push up costs towards the higher end  - some more:
Multiple bank accounts with frequent inter-account transfers.
Multiple loans, leases, HP agreements.
Frequent foreign currency transactions.
Large numbers of cheques being written.
Limited or poor notation on bank debits or accounting system entries.
Large volumes of small-value transactions.
Discrepancies within debtors or creditors control accounts.
Exposure to RCT and/or technical VAT issues.
'Employee or contractor' grey areas & related issues.
Directors personal transactions run through company.
Non-compliance with Revenue requirements re motor & subsistence payments.
Non-achievement of industry-standard gross margins.
Existence of fraud risk indicators.
Going concern issues.
Frequent related party transactions.
"Difficult personality" directors or key position employees.
Autocratic culture within the company.
Tight time deadlines for completion.


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## widebody (28 Sep 2012)

Thanks very much for the replies.

In our case, we have a very simple structure.

Limited company
2 x directors, one 100% other 0%
6 employees
600k turnover
1 bank account
No additional income
No involvement with accountants during the year (any queries are billed)
We give them USB key, they send list of required paperwork
2-3 phonecalls and accounts arrive
Provision of Statutory Financial Statements
Provision and filing of Abriged Financial Statements
Draft Corporation Tax Computations
Capital Allowance Computations
Form CT1
Review of Revenue Notices of Assessment
Preliminary tax notices
Directors Personal Income tax return
List of adjustments

I'm more of a quality rather than quantity man myself, hence we're with a big enough company. However it's slash and burn time, and fees are on the table.

Many thanks.


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## Brendan Burgess (28 Sep 2012)

T McGibney said:


> Brendan,
> 
> The seriousness & complexity of statutory audit means that you won't get an €1m company audit (including accounts preparation and the extras) done for €2k unless major corners are being cut.
> 
> .



Hi Tommy

I had just put that figure in as part of an example. Not a suggestion. Would €10k to €20k be more appropriate? 

Your post is a good basis of a Key Post "How to reduce your accountancy costs" 

I had forgotten the key one.  
Get your Companies Office returns in on time and avoide the need for a statutory audit. 

Brendan


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## J.Ryan (28 Sep 2012)

widebody said:


> Thanks very much for the replies.
> 
> In our case, we have a very simple structure.
> 
> ...


 

What software do you usefor your book-keeping?


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## widebody (28 Sep 2012)

We use Tas Books V3.


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## simplyjoe (29 Sep 2012)

Minimum of €1,500 plus VAT assuming everything is smooth. Previous figure of €500 - run a mile. Whoever would be doing this would be getting paid less than the minimum wage after all costs, database maintenance and such like are paid. Whilst high prizes dont guarantee quality, very low prizes should set alarm bells ringing.


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## powercity (1 Oct 2012)

Interesting info. 
Im sole trader, tiny turnover - though things picking up, (approx 45k)
Last year had a loss of 5k (due to accident), 
I prepare day books and bank rec., then give these to accountant. Up to last year I was being charged 1200 - 1400 k excl vat per year. (TB, set of a/ cs & form 11).
I had "deep" discussion with accountant last year & got the bill down to 950 + vat.
I have just discovered that this was for an income and expenditure account and not a complete set of accounts.
Therefore this year I have no Trial Balance etc.,

As a result of my accident last year, my med 1 were very high, I was late with my VAT returns (and when sent in - I got a refund of 30 euro). This I believe led to a full revenue audit, which I dealt with my self.
The accounts involvement with audit involved returning a confirmation email acknowledging tax appointment, and a three hour review of y/e 9 and 10s accounts.
The audit was held in my house over 2 days. Nerve racking however everything went ok - no serious anomolies other that a can of red bull on a diesel receipt.
I subsequently got a bill of 2,200 for the accountants involvement in the revenue audit.
The question I have to ask - At what stage do these people realise that the gravy train is over?

The fee above of 1,500, puts into perspective my fees. 
I will be doing my own from now on.


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## Cantona7 (1 Oct 2012)

We pay our accountants listed below for a same size company to Wideboy, the only difference is 3 directors returns. Also use Tas Books v3

There is zero interaction all year with the accountant firm, we just hand him our completed TB and Balance Sheet, never any adjustments required.

All we do is sign the prepared Companies Office submission and Personal tax returns.

Corporation Taxation 450.00
Secretarial Services 550.00
Income Taxation 600.00
Accounts Preparation 1,350.00
Outlay - CRO 40.00

Total 2990


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## kennyb3 (23 Oct 2012)

widebody said:


> Thanks very much for the replies.
> 
> In our case, we have a very simple structure.
> 
> ...



I'd guess you'd be looking at about €2k - €3k plus vat, depending on the firm and quality of records. If the records are as good as you say i'd imagine it would be more towards the €2k mark.

As others have said if you get a quote of €500, you've got to ask yourself what work are they actually doing for that. No way is someone going to spend ages ensuring all the disclosures in the full and abridged accounts comply with CRO requirements for that price (i'd bet they ll post the T/B and run off the financial statements there and then less adjustments and tailored disclosures). No accountant wants to work for less than minimum wage having spent 4+ years studying to become a professional and get a qualification.

Anyway if you are near D9 and want a quote or to chat, send me a PM.


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## kennyb3 (23 Oct 2012)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Hi Tommy
> 
> I had just put that figure in as part of an example. Not a suggestion. Would €10k to €20k be more appropriate?
> 
> ...



I'd suggest more €4k to €8k, again depending on all the factors previously mentioned. More than €10k would be crazy.

The need to fill out a PQA, prepare detailed planning and completion memo's and carry out on site testing of sales, purchases etc push costs up but not to that degree.

If the firm is familiar with performing audits most of the extra disclosure will come naturally enough.


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## piano (2 Nov 2012)

I am operating a small/medium business (sole trader) with about 10 staff.The business has a turnover of about 900k.
I have inhouse book keeper who prepares everything for accountant. He has come back to me with a bill of €5000 for end of year returns. Am about to fall off my chair. He will not negotiate nor justify the bill. I am at a loss as to what I can do. Please advise.


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## mandelbrot (2 Nov 2012)

piano said:


> I am operating a small/medium business (sole trader) with about 10 staff.The business has a turnover of about 900k.
> I have inhouse book keeper who prepares everything for accountant. He has come back to me with a bill of €5000 for end of year returns. Am about to fall off my chair. He will not negotiate nor justify the bill. I am at a loss as to what I can do. Please advise.


 
What was the bill in previous years, and is there any reason that you know of why the job would have been any more laborious this year for the accountant?
What does your letter of engagement say about fees and the basis for calculating them?


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## kennyb3 (2 Nov 2012)

piano said:


> I am operating a small/medium business (sole trader) with about 10 staff.The business has a turnover of about 900k.
> I have inhouse book keeper who prepares everything for accountant. He has come back to me with a bill of €5000 for end of year returns. Am about to fall off my chair. He will not negotiate nor justify the bill. I am at a loss as to what I can do. Please advise.



Hi piano,

If your bookkeeper is decent, which i'm guessing you know he/she is, you should be only looking at a fee of €1.5 - €2.5k.

Do they keep the accounts on a software package?

Turnover doesn't come into it as much as people like to think - esp if all entries are performed by a bookkeeper.

Ask your accountant for a breakdown of the time input into the job - broken down between accounts prep, taxation and any other items (ongoing queries during the year).

Also compare their final accounts to the trial balance your bookkeeper produces - for level of adjustments.

PM me if you want a quote for next year from our firm.


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## goldie81 (2 Nov 2012)

Outrageous fees.

Ask your accountant for a full breakdown of hours spent on job and by whom i.e trainee/qualified/partner. Go through trial balance and final accounts with bookkeeper for list of adjustments. Ask to meet partner and bring your bookkeeper with you to view list of adjustments and errors.

Contact other accountants in your area for an outline of their hourly rates and compare them to current accountant. In my practice i give an estimate of fees prior to commencement, half way through assignment i check for fees overrun and the reason why. If it is down to client i contact client and give them a chance to correct them themselves, if on the other hand it is down to me than i take the hit.

There is a good few new practices starting up where fees are alot cheaper. In my case in was set up a pratice or go on the dole. I am happy to earn a weeks wage similar to what i was earning as a paye worker so that is what i base my hourly fee on. 

Good luck and pm me if you want a quote.


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## piano (2 Nov 2012)

He has never provided us with a letter of engagement. I recently took over the business from my mother and as a result inherited the accountant. Crazy fees were always his mandate and my mother just paid him as he was a family friend and money was plentiful. But things are not so good now and fees like this are just crazy. I know that the amount of work he puts in is very little. Our book keeper worked for years in a firm and is as good as an accountant herself and is so very diligent. I know the work he prepares for our accountant is excellent. Its basically his figures he uses and plugs them into a template and away they go. (Ok maybe I am a little biased but you know what I mean). Very little changes. But we have had several mistakes in our end of year accounts which has meant our accountant making amendments after they were submitted for 2010 and 2011. He never gives us a letter of engagement. But his refusal to give me a clear breakdown of the time spent is what baffles me. If he charges that amount and can back it up, I will pay him no questions asked but I knwo its not the case. And his answer that his fee is his fee is just ridiculous in this day and age. Anyone any advise for me. I appreciate anything you can suggest.


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## callybags (2 Nov 2012)

Sounds to me like he is clinging on to the "celtic tiger" way of doing business.

I would suggest paying him something on account- say 50% and include a covering letter saying that you are withholding the balance subject to you receiving a full breakdown of the charges, and agreeing a final figure based on this breakdown.

It is not good enough for him to just say "It is what it is" or words to that effect.


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## kennyb3 (2 Nov 2012)

I would plus one Callybags suggestion on the paying 50% for the time being and asking for a breakdown.

Definitely change accountant.

I really don't understand this attitude from other accountants - much better to have a client for 10 years @ 2k than for one year @ €5k. No way any soletrader should be paying near that level unless their records are a complete shambles. 

Would your bookkeeper be capable of doing the return? Or are they not comfortable on the tax end of things?

If the accountant is checking the figures I can't see why there is then changes retrospectively to 2010 and 2011??


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