# "Time for reality check on State’s capacity to build social housing"



## Brendan Burgess (24 Jan 2022)

Time for reality check on State’s capacity to build social housing
					

Challenge is no longer funding, it’s delivery of largest social housing project




					www.irishtimes.com
				




_A broader issue is capacity within the construction sector itself. The IFAC has estimated employment in construction will have to rise to 180,000 to deliver the public capital programme, up from 144,000 currently – but with labour shortages already a growing problem. Meanwhile, supply-chain issues have contributed to a marked pick-up in input costs for construction sector firms.

Many commentators argue the State should just build houses – as if this exercise were as simple as flicking a switch. However, the challenge is no longer funding, but delivery. A realistic discussion on the capacity of the State, approved housing bodies and local authorities to do so and in a cost-effective manner is long overdue._


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## ClubMan (24 Jan 2022)

Brendan Burgess said:


> _ However, the challenge is no longer funding, but delivery. _


Did the tooth fairy clear our quarter of a trillion euro national debt or something?


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## odyssey06 (24 Jan 2022)

Also at the flick of a switch... the same pool of workers need to:
Fix the thousands of houses in Donegal falling apart
Renovate the vacant houses in cities


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## Dermot (24 Jan 2022)

And what about the 20 plus thousand workers needed for the upgrading of homes to higher BER standards


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## Protocol (24 Jan 2022)

I have been saying this over and over.

It's a supply-side issue.


Any scheme to affect the demand-side should be abolished.

What I want to see is the Taoiseach opening a training school to produce 1,000 of each trade/skill per annum.

Or radical thinking to increase supply.


Note that there are 40,000 building workers on the Live Register, first step is to contact these people and get them back working.


Maybe tax reliefs on builders earnings, rather than tax relief for FTBs?


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## Jim2007 (25 Jan 2022)

Because a housing policy based on individuals taking on huge amounts of debt or relying on the state to put a roof over their head, especially when sold as an investment opportunity, is such a great idea - NOT.

When you got a dumb idea no amount of fiddling around with the parameters is going to fix it.  Land is finite, everyone can’t live in the same location, low income individuals can’t afford to own a house, immigration is not main cause driving the prices up and foreign banks are not interest in entering the market to financing subprime lending.

Every country has a housing crisis of some kind of another and the chances of eradicating it are not high, but you certainly reduce your chances of easing the problem by setting out trying to achieve the impossible.


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## Brendan Burgess (25 Jan 2022)

odyssey06 said:


> Also at the flick of a switch... the same pool of workers need to:
> Fix the thousands of houses in Donegal falling apart
> Renovate the vacant houses in cities


Do we not need these workers to deliver broadband to isolated farmhouses on the side of a mountain?


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## Peanuts20 (25 Jan 2022)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Do we not need these workers to deliver broadband to isolated farmhouses on the side of a mountain?


Block layers, carpenters, plumbers and electricians are not needed to build the broadband infrastructure needed. Perhaps if we all moved to collective housing in Dublin it would be easier but then the Nimbyism of those already there would kick in. 

Maybe instead of sending our leaving cert kids to 3rd level course in IT we should be investing in training apprentiships


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## Leo (25 Jan 2022)

Peanuts20 said:


> Maybe instead of sending our leaving cert kids to 3rd level course in IT we should be investing in training apprentiships


But that only works if they are suited to apprenticeships! Many a good tradesperson would make for a dreadful IT pro and vice versa.


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## ClubMan (25 Jan 2022)

Many of the IT pros that I've worked with made dreadful IT pros...


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## Leo (25 Jan 2022)

ClubMan said:


> Many of the IT pros that I've worked with made dreadful IT pros...


Me too, and I dread to think how dangerous some of them would be with a hammer!


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## Nicklesilver (25 Jan 2022)

I am concerned about efficiency in spending all the tax payers money, the county councils have a very poor record in building, maintaining, managing and collecting rent in public housing.


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## Purple (25 Jan 2022)

Protocol said:


> Maybe tax reliefs on builders earnings, rather than tax relief for FTBs?


Maybe tax relief on investments that reduce labour input in house construction?
We don't need more tradespeople building houses, we need more  factories making houses or chunks of houses. That reduces the labour input at every stage of the supply chain. We aren't going to fix the skills shortage, there just aren't enough people with the aptitude who want to go into the sector. It's skilled work but it's dirty and physical and relatively dangerous. It's cyclical and insecure and age and injury aren't your friend.


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## ClubMan (25 Jan 2022)

Leo said:


> Me too, and I dread to think how dangerous some of them would be with a hammer!


You mean an Irish screwdriver?


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## MrEarl (25 Jan 2022)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Do we not need these workers to deliver broadband to isolated farmhouses on the side of a mountain?



Absoutely not, sure it would be faster and probably a lot cheaper to give them a grant to help buy equipment for the Starlink service. Ah, but that would necessitate having to do something about the rediculous contract that the Government signed, for the roll out of national broadband (which must be in breach, given how far behind schedule it is, and the other goings on, regarding how the contracted company was capitalised etc.).

So, let's assume the Government have a moment of "brilliance", and terminate the broadband contract (for the supplier's failure to perform), that's circa €3.5bn. freed up. Granted, part of that goes on grants, to help fund Starlink kit, for qualifying parties. They'll still free up circa €2.5bn plus.

You could build a lot of houses with that money!

Trades people can be attracted in from other countries, once we pay them a fair rate and treat them properly. It's not rocket science...


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## ashambles (25 Jan 2022)

MrEarl said:


> They'll still free up circa €2.5bn plus.
> 
> You could build a lot of houses with that money!
> 
> Trades people can be attracted in from other countries, once we pay them a fair rate and treat them properly. It's not rocket science...


At about 300k a unit you'd get 8300 houses.  Is that a lot of houses on a national basis? 

Any tradespeople attracted from abroad need accommodation. In the short term that makes things worse. 
We've been down that road before - building with a large amount of imported labour. Is the lead up to the last housing crash disappearing into folk memory?


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## Protocol (25 Jan 2022)

@Purple 
you seem to be saying that no matter what we do to try to boost labour supply in the trades, it won't be enough to build what I think is needed, which is 50,000 houses p.a.

Fair enough, you are closer to this than me.

I still think we should try, and I agree with you on pre-fab or modular housing.


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## cremeegg (25 Jan 2022)

ashambles said:


> Any tradespeople attracted from abroad need accommodation. In the short term that makes things worse.
> We've been down that road before - building with a large amount of imported labour. Is the lead up to the last housing crash disappearing into folk memory?


The lead up to the last crash built approx one third of all the houses in the country. If only we had the sense to make that mistake again.


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## MrEarl (25 Jan 2022)

ashambles said:


> At about 300k a unit you'd get 8300 houses.  Is that a lot of houses on a national basis?
> 
> Any tradespeople attracted from abroad need accommodation. In the short term that makes things worse.
> We've been down that road before - building with a large amount of imported labour. Is the lead up to the last housing crash disappearing into folk memory?



Is 8,300 more houses a lot of houses in a national basis - absolutely !  .... It's exactly 8,300 more houses that we might otherwise have, and will likely accomodate over 20,000 people for many decades to come ! 

To suggest that bringing in labour, (possibly on a short term basis) makes things worse, is madness. We need skilled workers and can't hang around for another 5-10 years while we try and train a new generation of trades people. If necessary, they could stay in (possibly) budget hotels, while constructing houses. Those who wish to remain in Ireland longer term will move to more permanent accommodation over the medium to longer term, while others may elect to move on, after working here for a few months, or a year etc.

As for how you conclude that trying to increase housing, that's desparately needed in Ireland, is going to cause a housing crash, I don't think I'll ever understand.


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## noproblem (25 Jan 2022)

It's a pity some councils wouldn't do an audit on the houses people are living in at present. How many individuals (1 person), and single parents with 1 child, are living in a 3 bedroom house, and larger, apartments too. I've no doubt at all it would add up to thousands.


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## ClubMan (25 Jan 2022)

noproblem said:


> It's a pity some councils wouldn't do an audit on the houses people are living in at present. How many individuals (1 person), and single parents with 1 child, are living in a 3 bedroom house, and larger, apartments too. I've no doubt at all it would add up to thousands.


Well the delayed census is coming up this year which might provide some of this data.


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## noproblem (25 Jan 2022)

ClubMan said:


> Well the delayed census is coming up this year which might provide some of this data.


Agreed, that's if everything is given as the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth Me Lord


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## Purple (27 Jan 2022)

MrEarl said:


> Trades people can be attracted in from other countries, once we pay them a fair rate and treat them properly. It's not rocket science...


There is a shortage of housing in most of the developed world. There is a housing affordability problem in most of the developed world. There is a shortage of skilled labour in most of the developed world.
We've inflated the cost of housing by massively increasing the money supply and devaluing labour. Why is anyone surprised that people capable of acquiring skills and who have a good work ethic aren't attracted into jobs that don't generate in income high enough to buy a house?
We are competing internationally for skilled labour. Why would they come here where they will pay extremely high taxes on moderate incomes, where rents are high and infrastructure is bad? There aren't a whole bunch of Eastern European countries joining the EU this time around so we don't have a massive pool of cheap skilled labour to tap into.


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## Purple (27 Jan 2022)

noproblem said:


> It's a pity some councils wouldn't do an audit on the houses people are living in at present. How many individuals (1 person), and single parents with 1 child, are living in a 3 bedroom house, and larger, apartments too. I've no doubt at all it would add up to thousands.


With lifetime tenancies there's zero chance of that happening. You seem to be suggesting that State resources should be managed in such a way that they provide the greatest public good. You absolute monster. Una Mullally would describe you as a Neo-Con.


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## MrEarl (27 Jan 2022)

Purple said:


> There is a shortage of housing in most of the developed world. There is a housing affordability problem in most of the developed world. There is a shortage of skilled labour in most of the developed world.
> We've inflated the cost of housing by massively increasing the money supply and devaluing labour. Why is anyone surprised that people capable of acquiring skills and who have a good work ethic aren't attracted into jobs that don't generate in income high enough to buy a house?
> We are competing internationally for skilled labour. Why would they come here where they will pay extremely high taxes on moderate incomes, where rents are high and infrastructure is bad? There aren't a whole bunch of Eastern European countries joining the EU this time around so we don't have a massive pool of cheap skilled labour to tap into.


There's lots of potential labour, if we are prepared to look for it... Even if we exclude Europe (a bit nuts, but anyway), are you telling me that no one from the likes of Afghanistan, Syria, or various African countries  where millions of people have been displaced, don't have any trades?

Also, I've yet to meet a "poor" tradesman - cash is still king, when it comes to the trades. Most tradesmen are off doing "nixers" most days of the week.

Ireland has some specific issues relating to incompetance and suspected skullduggery, which could easily be fixed, if we were prepared to address those issues -  but in true Irish form, we won't - we'll just have a moan about them from time to time, then sweep them back under the rug for another while. Until that changes, we'll continue to have widespread housing problems


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## noproblem (27 Jan 2022)

Purple said:


> With lifetime tenancies there's zero chance of that happening. You seem to be suggesting that State resources should be managed in such a way that they provide the greatest public good. You absolute monster. Una Mullally would describe you as a Neo-Con.


I've no idea how to answer that, mostly because I haven't a clue what you're saying.


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## Purple (27 Jan 2022)

noproblem said:


> I've no idea how to answer that, mostly because I haven't a clue what you're saying.


I'm agreeing with you and then being sarcastic.


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## noproblem (27 Jan 2022)

Purple said:


> I'm agreeing with you and then being sarcastic.


No change there so.


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## Purple (27 Jan 2022)

noproblem said:


> No change there so.


True.


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## Purple (27 Jan 2022)

MrEarl said:


> There's lots of potential labour, if we are prepared to look for it... Even if we exclude Europe (a bit nuts, but anyway), are you telling me that no one from the likes of Afghanistan, Syria, or various African countries  where millions of people have been displaced, don't have any trades?


Do you really think a tradesperson from Afghanistan, Syria, or various African countries can built to Irish regulations and standards? Irish tradespeople can hardly do it. 
How do they get here? 
Do they bring their families? 
Where do they live? 
Do we send them back in 5-10 years when we are finished with them? Do we really want to behave like the Swiss and exploit generations of migrant workers from poor countries?


MrEarl said:


> Also, I've yet to meet a "poor" tradesman - cash is still king, when it comes to the trades. Most tradesmen are off doing "nixers" most days of the week.


That's a bit of a sweeping generalisation. Are you just referring to those in the building trades? Even if you are most work long hard days and wouldn't be in a position to do nixers "most days of the week". Even with the nixers and long hours they work we've still got a labour shortage.  


MrEarl said:


> Ireland has some specific issues relating to incompetance and suspected skullduggery, which could easily be fixed, if we were prepared to address those issues -  but in true Irish form, we won't - we'll just have a moan about them from time to time, then sweep them back under the rug for another while.


Every country has that. We've nothing special on that front.


MrEarl said:


> Until that changes, we'll continue to have widespread housing problems


Are you suggesting that is the cause of the housing shortage?


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## Zenith63 (27 Jan 2022)

odyssey06 said:


> Also at the flick of a switch... the same pool of workers need to:
> Fix the thousands of houses in Donegal falling apart
> Renovate the vacant houses in cities


Not to forget the impending fire safety works required on virtually every apartment complex in the country. Just went through a very painful sale delayed by fire safety issues; there’s a storm coming here that is going to generate a huge amount of work for the building trade.


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## Purple (28 Jan 2022)

Zenith63 said:


> Not to forget the impending fire safety works required on virtually every apartment complex in the country. Just went through a very painful sale delayed by fire safety issues; there’s a storm coming here that is going to generate a huge amount of work for the building trade.


Using the same people to upgrade and repaid propertied as are used to build them is like using mechanics to build car engines and panel beaters to make car bodies. It's stupid and shows just how dysfunctional the sector it. 
Before anyone says "It's not the same", I know that, that's why I said it's like using them, not that it's the same as using them. The amount of labour input in construction is just nuts.


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## odyssey06 (28 Jan 2022)

Zenith63 said:


> Not to forget the impending fire safety works required on virtually every apartment complex in the country. Just went through a very painful sale delayed by fire safety issues; there’s a storm coming here that is going to generate a huge amount of work for the building trade.


Just wondering what period is the apartment complex from? 90s? Celtic Tiger? Later?


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## Zenith63 (28 Jan 2022)

odyssey06 said:


> Just wondering what period is the apartment complex from? 90s? Celtic Tiger? Later?


Celtic Tiger era. The more people I spoke to though the more you realise how wide spread issues are. We had to do a cash sale in the end because banks are asking for Fire Risk Assessments once there’s any hint of issues, once that happens there’s no getting out of taking action to remediate. Rightly so, but when the costs are so high and OMC’s have such weak powers to extract money from owners, it’s possible the works may never get completed and non-cash sales become impossible or if the issues are particularly bad the building has to be closed (eg. Priory Hall).


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## odyssey06 (28 Jan 2022)

One of the issues is that once you start renovating a property, you seem to be on the hook to bring the property up to modern specs including BER.

Some of these vacant properties could be brought back to the market quickly, and to a standard at least as good as the occupied property next door... But bringing it up to that spec is a whole other ball game in time and money.


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## cremeegg (29 Jan 2022)

Purple said:


> The amount of labour input in construction is just nuts.


You have made this point in many threads.

Is house building using modern manufacturing methods practiced on a major scale anywhere in the world.


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## HyperionDayz (30 Jan 2022)

I wonder could we (the Irish people) not be a little more ambitious in this regard. Yes housing is a problem throughout the world with skyrocketing prices, but do we really think that the inclusion of all social housing within the private market is likely to improve those prices?

Could we not partner with a large German/Polish/Austrian house builder to setup an Irish subsidiary? The staff could be trained in their home country and then work in Ireland tax free as an incentive. 10% of the final house price could be held back based on performance - deliver early you get the 10% within a year, for each month of delays you hold back 2% per year. 

I think worrying about the costs of building these houses is irrelevant - the state can borrow billions of euros at 0 - 0.25%, so why not just fix housing. The cost of not fixing housing will be far far greater and might well limit our ability to take advantage of brexit as the only English speaking country in Europe. All those multinationals coming to Ireland need somewhere for their staff to live, so the state shouldn’t be competing in the private market further limiting supply.

This might be controversial, but if the average cost of building social housing in Dublin is €300k, couldn’t we build somewhere cheaper. We have one of the most sparsely populated countries in Europe, just look out your window at the green fields. Personally I live where I can afford, which is not D4 and yet there seems to be an expectation that anyone who wants to live there in social housing should be accommodated. What’s wrong with the other 25 counties? An acre of farmland is €3-5k in many counties, which fits at least 8 houses. Besides there’s no reason why a state funded foreign subsidiary would need to pay the 50% cost of each house in taxes.

When we’ve tried every single option and nothing has worked, then I’ll accept that fixing the housing problem is impossible. Until then let’s be bold, ambitious and break some heads!


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## RetirementPlan (1 Feb 2022)

cremeegg said:


> You have made this point in many threads.
> 
> Is house building using modern manufacturing methods practiced on a major scale anywhere in the world.


Some interesting stuff happening with 3D printing








						Dutch couple become Europe’s first inhabitants of a 3D-printed house
					

New home in shape of boulder is first legally habitable property with load-bearing walls made using 3D-printing technology




					www.theguardian.com


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## cremeegg (1 Feb 2022)

RetirementPlan said:


> Some interesting stuff happening with 3D printing
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have no doubt this will be the future, but at present it is one house rented at half price. 

And worse again it's in Holland. They like to build weird for the sake of it. See here.









						Cube house - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




I have been in them, while they look cute they are utterly ridiculous. 

This may provide houses in Dublin when the current generation of first time buyers children are looking for homes.

After the planners get their heads around them.

After BATU accepts them.

After an Irish housing manufacturing industry comes into being.


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## Leo (2 Feb 2022)

cremeegg said:


> After an Irish housing manufacturing industry comes into being.


We have a lot of small builders of one-off homes, but Glenveigh are one of Irelands biggest homebuilders and they already do a lot of off-site manufacturing, they've recently bought the old Braun factory to increase their timber frame kit manufacturing capacity.


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## Peanuts20 (2 Feb 2022)

Zenith63 said:


> Not to forget the impending fire safety works required on virtually every apartment complex in the country. Just went through a very painful sale delayed by fire safety issues; there’s a storm coming here that is going to generate a huge amount of work for the building trade.


The storm is already here, between Pyrite and fire safety as starters

I used to pass an apartment block being built in the early 00's in Dublin. I'm no expert but even to my laymans eye, you could see the blockwork was shoddy beyond belief. Plaster covered a lot of ills. I lived in a number of rented Celtic tigers apartments during that period, all had issues. Glad I live in a 70s built house now.


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## RetirementPlan (3 Feb 2022)

cremeegg said:


> I have no doubt this will be the future, but at present it is one house rented at half price.
> 
> And worse again it's in Holland. They like to build weird for the sake of it. See here.
> 
> ...


It's not just the Dutch in fairness;








						Could 3D-printed homes be Ireland's housing crisis solution? - Extra.ie
					

The future of housing could see 3D printers building our homes from the ground up while minimising production time, and potentially making houses more



					extra.ie


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## Purple (14 Feb 2022)

In order to address the labour shortage in construction how about giving the State Pension at 60 to tradespeople involved in the Construction sector while increasing it to 68 for the rest of us?
That would make the sector more attractive and would deal with the reality that construction is hard, skilled, manual work that's difficult to do as you get older.


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## Purple (8 Sep 2022)

Are cheap factor build flat-packed homes like this the answer?


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## T McGibney (8 Sep 2022)

Purple said:


> In order to address the labour shortage in construction how about giving the State Pension at 60 to tradespeople involved in the Construction sector while increasing it to 68 for the rest of us?
> That would make the sector more attractive and would deal with the reality that construction is hard, skilled, manual work that's difficult to do as you get older.


It wouldn't make a whit of difference. Most tradesmen are physically past it for construction work by age 60 owing to inevitable wear and tear so they're retired at least from that occupation by then anyway.


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## Purple (8 Sep 2022)

T McGibney said:


> It wouldn't make a whit of difference. Most tradesmen are physically past it for construction work by age 60 owing to inevitable wear and tear so they're retired at least from that occupation by then anyway.


That's my point. If people knew they could get a pension at 60 they might be more inclined to enter the sector.


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## Protocol (8 Sep 2022)

Is this physical nature of the work one reason why there are nearly 40,000 building workers on JSA "the dole"?

21000 = craft and related
18,700 = plant and machine operatives


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## Purple (8 Sep 2022)

Protocol said:


> Is this physical nature of the work one reason why there are nearly 40,000 building workers on JSA "the dole"?
> 
> 21000 = craft and related
> 18,700 = plant and machine operatives


Wow, that's crazy. I'd say a large proportion of them are working and claiming the JSA.


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## T McGibney (8 Sep 2022)

Protocol said:


> Is this physical nature of the work one reason why there are nearly 40,000 building workers on JSA "the dole"?
> 
> 21000 = craft and related
> 18,700 = plant and machine operatives


No, to be on job seekers you have to be both fit and available for work.

I'd say the key reason is that there's so little housebuilding going on.


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## Purple (8 Sep 2022)

T McGibney said:


> I'd say the key reason is that there's so little housebuilding going on.


The impression being given is that labour shortages are a major reason that there is so little housebuilding on. It is certainly the case for the builders I know. My former neighbour had a crew of around 30 lads and 40-50 contractors he used. During Covid the Eastern European lads went home and most haven't come back. He said he's employ 40 people tomorrow if he could get them. 
I've another friend (yes, I've two friends) who said he's been waiting over a year for his extension to start because his builder is so busy and can't get tradespeople.
Anecdotally pay for bricklayers, plasterers and carpenters are back at boom prices.  
Another acquaintance (not a friend, I've only the two) is building a house in Kilkenny. It's 240 Square metres and he's been quoted €45k labour to have it plastered.


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## T McGibney (8 Sep 2022)

Purple said:


> The impression being given is that labour shortages are a major reason that there is so little housebuilding on. It is certainly the case for the builders I know. My former neighbour had a crew of around 30 lads and 40-50 contractors he used. During Covid the Eastern European lads went home and most haven't come back. He said he's employ 40 people tomorrow if he could get them.
> I've another friend (yes, I've two friends) who said he's been waiting over a year for his extension to start because his builder is so busy and can't get tradespeople.
> Anecdotally pay for bricklayers, plasterers and carpenters are back at boom prices.
> Another acquaintance (not a friend, I've only the two) is building a house in Kilkenny. It's 240 Square metres and he's been quoted €45k labour to have it plastered.


Yes to all that, but when bricklayers, plasterers and carpenters are undoubtedly both in short supply and making lots of money, there are fewer openings for the sort of builders labourer who used be common on house building sites 15-20 years ago. I know of lads now working in hardware shops, driving vans and even in the likes of Lidl who would be attracted back to building if there was enough of it going on.


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## Firefly (8 Sep 2022)

Purple said:


> The impression being given is that labour shortages are a major reason that there is so little housebuilding on. It is certainly the case for the builders I know. My former neighbour had a crew of around 30 lads and 40-50 contractors he used. During Covid the Eastern European lads went home and most haven't come back. He said he's employ 40 people tomorrow if he could get them.
> I've another friend (yes, I've two friends) who said he's been waiting over a year for his extension to start because his builder is so busy and can't get tradespeople.
> Anecdotally pay for bricklayers, plasterers and carpenters are back at boom prices.
> Another acquaintance (not a friend, I've only the two) is building a house in Kilkenny. It's 240 Square metres and he's been quoted €45k labour to have it plastered.


I had been trying to get the plasterer we used in the past back in to plaster a few rooms. He finally said he could come last Sat & Sun if that was any good and I nearly bit his arm off. It's all done now but in fairness the price wasn't too bad. It looks great, except it needs to be painted now


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## Purple (8 Sep 2022)

T McGibney said:


> Yes to all that, but when bricklayers, plasterers and carpenters are undoubtedly both in short supply and making lots of money, there are fewer openings for the sort of builders labourer who used be common on house building sites 15-20 years ago. I know of lads now working in hardware shops, driving vans and even in the likes of Lidl who would be attracted back to building if there was enough of it going on.


Fair enough but I think many of them realise that it's hard physical work and not very well paid considering the attrition on the body and the dirt, danger and long hours. There's a lot to be said for a safe clean job in Lidl that you can do until you are in your mid to late 60's, especially when the marginal tax rate is over 50%. 
I think much of our labour shortage is down to that. 

I've a qualified chef working for me in a factory. He's a fantastic work ethic. He could earn twice as much back working as a chef but the hours are long and antisocial and the work is also physically attritional and more than half of the extra money he'd earn would be taken in tax.


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## Purple (8 Sep 2022)

Firefly said:


> I had been trying to get the plasterer we used in the past back in to plaster a few rooms. He finally said he could come last Sat & Sun if that was any good and I nearly bit his arm off. It's all done now but in fairness the price wasn't too bad. It looks great, except it needs to be painted now


I hate painting. Tiling, plumbing, wallpapering, a bit of carpentry, even a bit of plastering but not painting. I'm too fussy. It takes me forever.


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## Firefly (8 Sep 2022)

Purple said:


> I hate painting. Tiling, plumbing, wallpapering, a bit of carpentry, even a bit of plastering but not painting. I'm too fussy. It takes me forever.


I just bought a paint sprayer...probably take me longer to cover up the place and clean the place afterwards but at least I can pretend I have a gun and have some fun!


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## lff12 (28 Sep 2022)

T McGibney said:


> It wouldn't make a whit of difference. Most tradesmen are physically past it for construction work by age 60 owing to inevitable wear and tear so they're retired at least from that occupation by then anyway.


You haven't met our local "window doctor". Everyone is surprised to hear he is still on the go, despite looking as if he is about to keel over and die (a very good tradesperson too).


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## lff12 (28 Sep 2022)

Firefly said:


> I had been trying to get the plasterer we used in the past back in to plaster a few rooms. He finally said he could come last Sat & Sun if that was any good and I nearly bit his arm off. It's all done now but in fairness the price wasn't too bad. It looks great, except it needs to be painted now


I was talking to a window cleaner yesterday who does *just* enough work to keep himself under the VAT threshold, so he doesn't have the hassle of it. I suspect the paperwork required for self employed might make it easier to just go and get a regular job with a salary and benefits.


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