# Is anyone else cheesed off with how much people get paid on social welfare



## deargas

One of the few things that went up in the last budget was the Social Welfare payment, to around EUR 209 per week.

Does someone really need EUR 209 per week to survive.

A friend of mine is getting rent allowance, lives in a 1 bed apartment in Letterkenny.

He has to pay an additional EUR 35 out of his social welfare to cover the shortfall in rent allowance.

I asked him candidly over the Christmas period, if you didn't smoke or drink for the week, how much would it cost you to live.

He said around EUR75.

So that's an extra EUR 100 he's got to 'enjoy himself' with every week. 

Surely social welfare should be means or locally assessed. i.e. the cost of living in Dublin would be much higher than in the wilds of Donegal, or families with additional mouths to feed etc.

Also, the person just made unemployed with a hefty mortgage to pay, yes I accept the case for needing to pay a higher amount here too.

But my original question was this. Do you pay too much in Social Welfare payments.

Consider that social welfare in England at the moment is around EUR70 per week.

If you feel like replying, I'd appreciate it if you could say whether you are receiving Social Welfare payments or not.


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## thespecialon

Agree completely..Some people I know, living at home, so no mortatage, able to go on 1 or 2 holidays a year(budget holidays to be fair but still a week in the sun) , have a night out every weekend..Were offered jobs during the boom period and turned them down..this is fact and they werent bad jobs,doing deliveries etc....Too much incentive there to stay on it in my opinion...I am talking about people on the dole,not people who have been paying PRSI and been made redundant,in this case I think they should be receiving a greater amout to help them through.
Also too much of a convergence of 'income' between people on minimum wage and social welfare(including all other benefits)
I am currently in full time employment.

T


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## BoscoTalking

its all very well but if he becomes sick - needs private tests because our public services are poor then it won't go too far. maybe it is too much, but i honestly wouldn'nt swop places with anyone on unemployment assistance. 
something should be done to reduce the lenght of time people can avail of assistance instead of cutting the allowance IMO.


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## gillarosa

I'm not receiving it, but only became aware of the figure when I looked it up late last year when I feared redundancy was on the cards and the short answer from me is: No, I don't think its too much, it frightens me to think that I may have to live on that sometime in the near future if the worse comes to the worst.


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## niceoneted

I look at in terms of disposable income. Someone in receipt of rent allowance, ESB credits, phone credits, tv license paid, medical card and then the welfare payment, against someone out working earning an average wage but having to pay mortgage on a modest house, maybe car loan on a modest car to get them to and from work if inadequate public transport available. sometimes the former have more disposable income and this is where I think things are unfair. 
I work full time.


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## Guest116

Yes 204 euro per week is a lot but its actually a great fallback to have if you loose your job. I know people who have lost their jobs and are finding it very very hard to get a new job, the 204 per week is of a great help.

The only problem I have is with people who are lazy and dont want to find a job and just live off the dole and other supplements.

If you loose your job you will be more than grateful for the 204 per week.


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## Purple

The real question is can the state afford to pay it.


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## gipimann

niceoneted said:


> I look at in terms of disposable income. Someone in receipt of rent allowance, ESB credits, phone credits, tv license paid, medical card and then the welfare payment, against someone out working earning an average wage but having to pay mortgage on a modest house, maybe car loan on a modest car to get them to and from work if inadequate public transport available. sometimes the former have more disposable income and this is where I think things are unfair.
> I work full time.


 
Just to point out that items such as ESB credits, phone credits and TV licence are generally only available to pensioners, and some other specific groups (unemployed not being one of them).


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## barryl

I rent houses to sw tenants and find that they can afford to pay rent allowance supplement,living expences,(this is the killer bit)run a car!!and a mobile phone!!and a few pints at the weekend, all out of their dole payments,and whats more the country is full of them.


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## deargas

Ok, 

I'm own my own business, and as a proprietary director, if I go out of business, I get no jobseekers benefit, though I pay taxes, and prsi, so that's great. 

to the person who said, yea it's great to fall back on if you're out of work. where do you think the money comes from? with more and more people being out of work, there is an ever increasing burden on those paying taxes.

I have spent the last 5 years working, paying a hefty mortgage, putting kids through school etc. If I go out of work, the dole won't even cover the interest on my mortgage.


My point is; in this tech savvy world, with civil servants facing the possibility of being made redundant, wouldn't it be a good idea to have a fine toothed comb approach to assessing those receiving jobseekers allowance to see just how much they need to survive. 

I don't want a witch hunt type approach, if you need cash to pay the bills, then I think there should be a case for it, but if you're a layabout like my friend, yes he's dog lazy, thinks you can't get a job unless you're Polish.  (-aside, that doesn't look right, Polish as in people from Poland, not the stuff to shine shoes).

anyway, if you're a layabout, not even interested in work, then why should you have the extra EUR100 per week to get drunk and smoke your way into the hospitals and health system that my taxes contribut to?


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## Sunny

Surely that's just your friends experience though. I know people on the dole who certainly don't have an extra €100 per week spending money to go on the beer with. The administrative cost of trying to find out how much each individual needs to live on and pay them that would probably cost more than it saves. Maybe €200 is too much and the same argument can probably be made about the minimum wage but I certainly hope I don't have to try living off that amount for any significant length of time.


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## Yellow Belly

Social welfare system is a complete joke by international standards. It is encourages laziness & apathy towards making any attempt to get back into the work force, and in many ways makes it more economically sensible to stay unemployed- which is crazy but true.

The social welfare system also has so many "arms & legs" such as unmarried mothers allowances, back to work schemes, disability payments etc etc it is almost impossible to establish where the biggest leakage is. When everyone is running down the health service in Ireland, how many have actually given a thought to the fact that the social welfare spend in the budget is normally greater than or equal to the amount of money spent on health? The figures in the last budget are approx. €19bn (yes thats billion!!) is the cost of social welfare.

One example of craziness is my sister in law-

unmarried mother so gets approx. €200+ per week, health board pay her rent in a new (built in 2006 3 bed semi) of €900 per month, she & her child have a medical card plus all the other free social welfare benefits. She works long hours at weekends (for cash!!!!) in a nite club/restauarant receiving €275, her boyfriend lives with her (technically not supposed to) and he earns €575 nett per week. Here are the raw figures for that house hold:

Min €1,050 per week net income with ZERO rent or mortgage plus free medical card & benefits- why in God's name would these people ever get married or come off social welfare. How many "working" house holds have over €1000 per week nett after all rent or mortgage payments?

The system is crazy & is being exploited left right & centre- a reform of the social welfare system could reap benefits of surely more than €2-3bn. As compared to the UK or all other international systems we encourage fraud & laziness by maintaining the sytem which we currently operate. It is inefficient, open to manipulation & ran by people who couldn't care less (just look at FAS).


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## deargas

she's got a child, so you forgot the EUR40 per week children's allowance.


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## sandrat

Yellow Belly said:


> Social welfare system is a complete joke by international standards. It is encourages laziness & apathy towards making any attempt to get back into the work force, and in many ways makes it more economically sensible to stay unemployed- which is crazy but true.
> 
> The social welfare system also has so many "arms & legs" such as unmarried mothers allowances, back to work schemes, disability payments etc etc it is almost impossible to establish where the biggest leakage is. When everyone is running down the health service in Ireland, how many have actually given a thought to the fact that the social welfare spend in the budget is normally greater than or equal to the amount of money spent on health? The figures in the last budget are approx. €19bn (yes thats billion!!) is the cost of social welfare.
> 
> One example of craziness is my sister in law-
> 
> unmarried mother so gets approx. €200+ per week, health board pay her rent in a new (built in 2006 3 bed semi) of €900 per month, she & her child have a medical card plus all the other free social welfare benefits. She works long hours at weekends (for cash!!!!) in a nite club/restauarant receiving €275, her boyfriend lives with her (technically not supposed to) and he earns €575 nett per week. Here are the raw figures for that house hold:
> 
> Min €1,050 per week net income with ZERO rent or mortgage plus free medical card & benefits- why in God's name would these people ever get married or come off social welfare. How many "working" house holds have over €1000 per week nett after all rent or mortgage payments?
> 
> The system is crazy & is being exploited left right & centre- a reform of the social welfare system could reap benefits of surely more than €2-3bn. As compared to the UK or all other international systems we encourage fraud & laziness by maintaining the sytem which we currently operate. It is inefficient, open to manipulation & ran by people who couldn't care less (just look at FAS).


 
This is about abuse of the system not about whether or not 204euro a week is too much. If they are committing fraud then report them


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## Yellow Belly

How many more are like them? How many people drawing the €204 have REALLY tried to get a job? What incentive is there for these people to get work?

I would hazard a quess that close on 66% of receipients of social welfare commit fraud in one way or another-
Are all disability allowance receivers really that disabled?
How many unemployed are no doing casual work (even if it just drug dealing!!!) on the side?
How many have actually tried to get a job (which is one of the conditions of receiving payments)?
How many have applied for a new kitchen appliance to their local health board & then sold it down the pub?

The whole system is rotten & needs to be reformed immediately.

Don't get me wrong- I am all for looking after the "weakest in society" but when it has reached the stage that we are at then something needs to be done. Why is there not an inspector for every 2,000 people on the dole? If he called to 5 people a day he would have looked in all his "crew" within 18 months? Surely his salary would justify itself quite quickly in terms of money saved from fraud.

The working man runs the risk of the Revenue Commissioner- who does the social welfare man have to account to?


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## Purple

People go to prison for social welfare fraud. How many bankers do you think will see the inside of a cell after the dust settles on this one?


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## Sunny

Yellow Belly said:


> How many more are like them? How many people drawing the €204 have REALLY tried to get a job? What incentive is there for these people to get work?
> 
> I would hazard a quess that close on 66% of receipients of social welfare commit fraud in one way or another-
> Are all disability allowance receivers really that disabled?
> How many unemployed are no doing casual work (even if it just drug dealing!!!) on the side?
> How many have actually tried to get a job (which is one of the conditions of receiving payments)?
> How many have applied for a new kitchen appliance to their local health board & then sold it down the pub?
> 
> The whole system is rotten & needs to be reformed immediately.
> 
> Don't get me wrong- I am all for looking after the "weakest in society" but when it has reached the stage that we are at then something needs to be done. Why is there not an inspector for every 2,000 people on the dole? If he called to 5 people a day he would have looked in all his "crew" within 18 months? Surely his salary would justify itself quite quickly in terms of money saved from fraud.
> 
> The working man runs the risk of the Revenue Commissioner- who does the social welfare man have to account to?


 
Social welfare investigators for start. How can you just pluck a figure of 66% out of your head to justify some pre-conception that you have of people on social welfare based on the experiences of your sister in law that another poster quiet rightly asks why haven't you informed social welfare about her if you want to stop the system being abused.


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## deargas

yea, because that's what he's going to do. He's going to report his Sister-in-law


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## Yellow Belly

How many bankers do you think committed fraud then? I only know of one who didn't follow good corporate governance- there is no mention of fraud in his actions other than a public assumptions of dishonesty.

I think you will find that he actually broke no law- even though I do agree that he actions were disgraceful.

Too much banker & developer bashing at moment- where did all the tax euro come from for the last 10 years? You should be sending all these people get well soon cards as they will have to be on top form to keep the tax receipts up for the next few years.

Concentrate on the real "drain" on our economy- social welfare & the civil service! Have a good bash there before you move on to people who actually TRIED to achieve something!


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## Sunny

deargas said:


> yea, because that's what he's going to do. He's going to report his Sister-in-law


 
Why not? She has got a boyfriend which I presume isn't his brother so she is not even related to him anymore. And you can't come on here moaning about people on social welfare if you are not going to take steps to help fix the problem.


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## barryl

Purple said:


> People go to prison for social welfare fraud. How many bankers do you think will see the inside of a cell after the dust settles on this one?


maybe one...


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## deargas

so, does anything ever get achieved by posting on these boards. other than cribbin, frustration and time wasted. 

I make my position clear to my friends, stating that I think there should be a reduction in the social welfare rates and ask any of my friends to justify the current levels.

I don't think it'd be very difficult to put together a price index based on where someone receives their social welfare payment, and use this as a weighting for additional payments to a base amount.

don't forget that people receive rent allowance completely separately from their social welfare payment.

In these times, if you can pay your bills, light, heat, rent etc. buy your essential shopping and have some left over, I think it's enough.

It was all well and good raising minimum wage levels and social welfare payments when the tiger was roaring and money was growing on trees.

No-one wants to see cuts in education, the health system etc. but the cuts in spending have to come. We're done for otherwise.


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## deargas

"uncle Yellow Belly", why did the guards take away my mommy? Because it was my duty to report her, dearest niece.


Agree with Sandrat, this is not about social welfare fraud. My original question was about whether the social welfare amount is too much.


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## MrMan

It's funny how wage cuts focus the minds as to where the nations money is being spent. I don't think €204 is too much when you take in the expenses every day living costs in Ireland, but whether we can afford to pay it is another thing.


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## iambrilliant

I think it is too much but I would prefer the amount to be maintained and a time-limit of 6 months put on the dole once that time is up you should be taken off it.


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## Sunny

iambrilliant said:


> I think it is too much but I would prefer the amount to be maintained and a time-limit of 6 months put on the dole once that time is up you should be taken off it.


 

And what do you live on then? We have going to have at least 12% unemployment. Where are the jobs for all these people going to come from?


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## Yellow Belly

Sunny said:


> And what do you live on then? We have going to have at least 12% unemployment. Where are the jobs for all these people going to come from?


 
Jobs coming from? We could use the 12% of the labour force to do refuse collection, road maintenance, drain cleaning, maintaining parks & local authority amenity areas so that it would save another area of public finance some money?

Agh damn sorry I forgot- we can't ask these people to "actually" work now can we?

Apologies for the synical statement above- not my real feeling. Although on second thoughts a more humanely acceptable version of above would have merit?


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## LouisCribben

The simple fact is that the country can't afford to pay over €200/week to people not working.

Could anybody give info about how much people get on the dole in other economically advanced countries in the EU, i.e. Germany, France, Denmank, Sweden, UK, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Netherlands, Belgium (i.e the countries who were in the EEC from the early days of the Union)

Anyone know how much an American on the dole gets ?

If Ireland pays a lot more to people on the dole than other countries, then it really is outrageous.


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## Sunny

Yellow Belly said:


> Jobs coming from? We could use the 12% of the labour force to do refuse collection, road maintenance, drain cleaning, maintaining parks & local authority amenity areas so that it would save another area of public finance some money?
> 
> Agh damn sorry I forgot- we can't ask these people to "actually" work now can we?
> 
> Apologies for the synical statement above- not my real feeling. Although on second thoughts a more humanely acceptable version of above would have merit?


 
I don't understand. Are you saying we replace the people already doing those jobs with unemployed people who will do it for cheaper?


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## Yellow Belly

Sunny said:


> I don't understand. Are you saying we replace the people already doing those jobs with unemployed people who will do it for cheaper?


 
That maybe so- what is worng with having these social tasks completed at the lowest cost possible- do you not agree with efficency?

Inefficency in our economy is what will ultimately kill us. Have a look at Aer Lingus as a micro example- here was an organisation losing hundreds of millions of euro (mostly due to inefficiencies). Willie Walsh goes in making almost 3,000 people redundant and within 18 months the company is profitable again. Ireland is now akin to Aer Lingus- we can no longer afford an "excess baggage" (pardon the pun) and unless the social welfare system & public sector pay issues are reformed we are heading for a serious crash landing internationally.


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## grahamo

I'm not going to complain about the rate of social welfare as I may need it myself one day. When you consider some people on SW are getting rent allowance on top of dole then that is too much. There is just no incentive to work at that stage. I do think more should be done to catch dole cheats though. There is widespread social welfare abuse.


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## MrMan

Yellow Belly said:


> Jobs coming from? We could use the 12% of the labour force to do refuse collection, road maintenance, drain cleaning, maintaining parks & local authority amenity areas so that it would save another area of public finance some money?
> 
> Agh damn sorry I forgot- we can't ask these people to "actually" work now can we?
> 
> Apologies for the synical statement above- not my real feeling. Although on second thoughts a more humanely acceptable version of above would have merit?


 

Then why make the statement at all? Like sunny said are we to get rid of people already working in parks etc to make way for your proposals? 

When you say we can't ask these people to 'actually work' you seem to fail to realise that most of these people have actually being working most of their adult lives and have had the misfortune to actually lose their jobs and are finding it ever more difficult to actually find a new job.


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## MrMan

> If Ireland pays a lot more to people on the dole than other countries, then it really is outrageous.


 
We didn't have a problem in paying wages higher than other countries so why change now.


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## Jody

grahamo said:


> . I do think more should be done to catch dole cheats though. There is widespread social welfare abuse.



agree completely


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## Sunny

LouisCribben said:


> The simple facts is that the country can't afford to pay over €200 to people not working.
> 
> Could anybody give info about how much people get on the dole in other economically advanced countries in the EU, i.e. Germany, France, Denmank, Sweden, UK, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Netherlands, Belgium (i.e the countries who were in the EEC from the early days of the Union)
> 
> Anyone know how much an American on the dole gets ?
> 
> If Ireland pays a lot more to people on the dole than other countries, then it really is outrageous.


 
It probably does rank high up but so does our minimum wage, wages in general and our cost of living. I am not against cutting social welfare as such for sound economic reasons but I object to the generalisation that it should be cut because people are milking the system.


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## Purple

LouisCribben said:


> If Ireland pays a lot more to people on the dole than other countries, then it really is outrageous.



Paying more money in social welfare is socially desirable (IMO) as long as it does not act as a disincentive to work and we can afford it.
The latter is no longer the case, the former may well be the case soon.


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## deargas

How is the latter the case. Are you saying we can afford to pay for social welfare? When did you come out of the coma?

Again, how can people talk about cutting wages when there is no proportate cut to social welfare? It did my nut in when, combined with a 1% increase in income tax, social welfare payments also increased in the last budget. Seriously wrong.

I think it's a fair statement to make that almost everyone in the private sector expects to be earning at least 10% less than last year, those who manage to keep their jobs. 

We need to get to grips with assessing exactly how much everyone needs to live on in this country.


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## PaddyW

If people are in receipt of allowances on top of their dole, then the amount of dole they receive after these allowances should be lowered to reflect them. That way, they will have enough to live on, well, I think so anyway. Once they have a roof over their head, food on the table and heat/light, maybe even a couple of bob in their pocket to treat the kids etc. then I think that is good enough. Anyone agree?

There is a huge probability that I could be redundant in a few months time. I won't get any rent allowance, I have a mortgage. This 204 would pay my mortgage for the month and a bit on top for everything else. I would be happy enough with that.


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## CS Dub

I have no problem with people who have actually worked claiming Jobseeker's payments (Benefit or Allowance).

What really bothers me is that school leavers can sign on in the following October after leaving school and also get Jobseeker's Allowance of €204.30 a week if their parent(s) are getting a social welfare payment.

Any thoughts on this?


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## Protocol

In the USA, UI typically lasts for 26 weeks.

It is 50% of former wages.


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## pebbledash

Yellow Belly said:


> What really bothers me is that school leavers can sign on in the following October after leaving school and also get Jobseeker's Allowance of €204.30 a week if their parent(s) are getting a social welfare payment.
> 
> Any thoughts on this?


 
I take it they have to show evidence of looking for work the same as anyone else?

After working for 23 years I find myself unemployed for the first time. I paid high rate of tax for most of that time. I am not entitled to any mortgage interest relief, medical card, fuel allowances etc because my partner is working. Believe me €204 does not go very far - particularly if you are saving for the event that you might not secure work before your entitlement runs out. Add food, medical bills, household bills, mortgage, clothes, travel, cost of job applications, emergencies. 

I think €204 is what is needed to stay afloat (certainly in Dublin). It is unfair being treated as a married couple (just living together) for sw purposes, but being penalised for tax purposes by not being allowed to share tax credits. It makes me sick to see others claim rentallowance, lone parents, all other allowances when they might be working part-time, have a partner living with them or just be making no effort to work.

Bring in inspectors, private detectives, cash rewards for those who report sw fraudsters. Create stricter criteria for claiming re greater evidence of jobseeking, attending interviews, seeking feedback etc. Role on the public sector pay cuts (my partner will be effected but I'd rather that than a second redundancy at our house).


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## deargas

pebbledash said:


> I think €204 is what is needed to stay afloat (certainly in Dublin). It is unfair being treated as a married couple (just living together) for sw purposes, but being penalised for tax purposes by not being allowed to share tax credits. It makes me sick to see others claim rentallowance, lone parents, all other allowances when they might be working part-time, have a partner living with them or just be making no effort to work.



There you go, this highlights my original point. This guy should be getting more dole than my loafer friend, who has no wife, kids and is a net drain on society.

If I lose my job, I have to emigrate. Simple as. I've got 2k mortgage with no possibility of the dole covering it, let alone silly things like food.


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## pebbledash

Actually I wouldn't totally agree with your original point.

I think that to some extent your sw payment should be based on what you earned in terms of prsi contributions. After than I think it should be tightened up once you use up your entitlement.

I agree with means testing. I disagree that people can live on €204 a week. I disagree that larger amounts should be paid to pay peoples' mortgages - we were careful to buy a place that we could just about afford on one salary. I don't think we should have to pay peoples' excessively large mortgages.

I don't think the amounts paid are excessive. I do think that fraud needs to be dealt with and that there needs to be some changes to prevent lifetime dole spongers. There should also be equality in the system so that those couples who are single income can share tax credits whether they are married or not. With proper management I do not think that €204 is excessive.


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## SS expert

pebbledash said:


> I take it they have to show evidence of looking for work the same as anyone else?
> 
> After working for 23 years I find myself unemployed for the first time. I paid high rate of tax for most of that time. I am not entitled to any mortgage interest relief, medical card, fuel allowances etc because my partner is working. Believe me €204 does not go very far - particularly if you are saving for the event that you might not secure work before your entitlement runs out. Add food, medical bills, household bills, mortgage, clothes, travel, cost of job applications, emergencies.
> 
> I think €204 is what is needed to stay afloat (certainly in Dublin). It is unfair being treated as a married couple (just living together) for sw purposes, but being penalised for tax purposes by not being allowed to share tax credits. It makes me sick to see others claim rentallowance, lone parents, all other allowances when they might be working part-time, have a partner living with them or just be making no effort to work.
> 
> I agree with this to an extent!!
> How are you being treated as a married couple if just living together?
> 
> Bring in inspectors, private detectives, cash rewards for those who report sw fraudsters. Create stricter criteria for claiming re greater evidence of jobseeking, attending interviews, seeking feedback etc.
> This could potentially cost more to implement than than the amount it would be designed to save...
> Role on the public sector pay cuts (my partner will be effected but I'd rather that than a second redundancy at our house).


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## SS expert

If you cant afford the mortgage move to a smaller house!
SW should not cover someones mortgage!


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## dub_nerd

pebbledash said:


> Bring in inspectors, private detectives, cash rewards for those who report sw fraudsters.


 
I've often wondered why this can't be done. I imagine social welfare fraud detection could easily pay for itself. I think the problem would be issues of civil liberties and entitlement to freedom from "snooping". Personally I think that receipt of a state benefit should be traded against the loss of some of those freedoms/entitlements, but I'd be open to argument. That leaves us with the situation that actually pertains -- the powers-that-be are dependent on inside information from relatives and "friends" ... which is rarely forthcoming, as witnessed by the anecdote on this thread.

Unfortunately I can't see societal attitudes changing sufficiently to address this problem. I've never met anyone with information about tax/benefit cheats willing to report them, no matter how much they're prepared to complain about them ( -- so stop complaining already!). Nor will they share the necessary information with _me_, because I _would _shop them tomorrow (...today, in fact, if it wasn't after 5pm ).


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## AlbacoreA

Yellow Belly said:


> ...Too much banker & developer bashing at moment- where did all the tax euro come from for the last 10 years? You should be sending all these people get well soon cards as they will have to be on top form to keep the tax receipts up for the next few years.
> 
> Concentrate on the real "drain" on our economy- social welfare & the civil service! Have a good bash there before you move on to people who actually TRIED to achieve something!


 
Cards to say, thanks for all the credit and all the debt maybe? Thanks for all the shoebox apartments with paper thin walls? Thanks for nothing cards for doctors nurses, police, teachers. Who achieve nothing. Lets have book burning, and lets drive the disadvantaged and poor out. They make no money, and greed is good. Sounds like a plan.


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## AlbacoreA

jaybird said:


> How silly of me! It really is that easy! I'll just sell my house and pay off the bank...hmmm no that won't work....I'll rent out my house for enough to cover the mortgage....no thats not it either...right then....I'll give it to the bank and they will let me off the negative equity.....wrong again...
> 
> Nope I give up. Please do explain how that one works?


 
Where are you going with this?


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## truthseeker

SS expert said:


> If you cant afford the mortgage move to a smaller house!
> SW should not cover someones mortgage!



Houses are not selling, there are a lot of people in a situation where they would love to sell and move to a smaller house but cant do so because of negative equity.

Its not so simple as sell up and move to somewhere smaller.


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## SS expert

truthseeker said:


> Houses are not selling, there are a lot of people in a situation where they would love to sell and move to a smaller house but cant do so because of negative equity.
> 
> Its not so simple as sell up and move to somewhere smaller.



good point... forgot about negative equity...


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## SS expert

AlbacoreA said:


> Where are you going with this?



I sense a touch of sarcasm...?


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## Yellow Belly

pebbledash said:


> I take it they have to show evidence of looking for work the same as anyone else?
> 
> After working for 23 years I find myself unemployed for the first time. I paid high rate of tax for most of that time. I am not entitled to any mortgage interest relief, medical card, fuel allowances etc because my partner is working. Believe me €204 does not go very far - particularly if you are saving for the event that you might not secure work before your entitlement runs out. Add food, medical bills, household bills, mortgage, clothes, travel, cost of job applications, emergencies.
> 
> I think €204 is what is needed to stay afloat (certainly in Dublin). It is unfair being treated as a married couple (just living together) for sw purposes, but being penalised for tax purposes by not being allowed to share tax credits. It makes me sick to see others claim rentallowance, lone parents, all other allowances when they might be working part-time, have a partner living with them or just be making no effort to work.
> 
> Bring in inspectors, private detectives, cash rewards for those who report sw fraudsters. Create stricter criteria for claiming re greater evidence of jobseeking, attending interviews, seeking feedback etc. Role on the public sector pay cuts (my partner will be effected but I'd rather that than a second redundancy at our house).


 
Here is a person whom I immediately respect- they have seen both sides literally. I agree with everything in this persons post & it should be read over & over by all the do gooders who beleive that the system is fair.

The most realistic & valid post on this topic


----------



## theengineer

It is my understanding that the state gives persons (without means) on social welfare €24 a week to feed and cloth a child. Dont know about anyone else, but that does not seem a lot.

Your views!!


----------



## grahamo

theengineer said:


> It is my understanding that the state gives persons (without means) on social welfare €24 a week to feed and cloth a child. Dont know about anyone else, but that does not seem a lot.
> 
> Your views!!


 
Your right. How would 24 euro feed & clothe a child? Most people would spend more per week on dog food for their dog.


----------



## JoeB

Social Welfare is always a difficult political problem.. clearly we can't afford to pay excessive amounts but we don't want to leave some people penniless. Charities have to take up any shortfall.. and they will definitely say that many people have major problems simply existing.

Some problems in my view is that one can't even claim social welfare without an address... sick or what.

People would be happy if there was more of a crackdown.. I believe there will be. Already people are on weekly signing I think, up from monthly and into bank accounts, now it's only collect in the post office and sign weekly. This helps.

Social welfare people have been known to park around certain places looking for claimants going to work. I was stopped at a police checkpoint when driving and Revenue were there, checking Diesel but also PAYE numbers etc.

I feel some people get too much... clearly the economic benefit of rent allowance is huge, and usually represents more than that individual could earn... people getting 200 UA, but also 900 rent, other allowances, health card, it adds up to more than a full time wage at minimum wage.. so that's wrong (imo) and can't be afforded long term.

So, should we go back to every man for himself? 

We have to say that maybe 3% of people genuinely need long term assistance... but many more people come from broken backgrounds or are uneducated which does make life difficult for them.. they should also be assisted. In a downturn there would be many who are let go.. we would have to pay a reduced payment to them too. (It should be a reduced payment to everybody, but with extra benefits for the very needy). 

Mortgage relief should not be offered in my view... the house should be sold at market rates to someone else, even when massively down on equity. A case could be made but that would be the bitterest pill to swallow for most Irish people.

It is very simple.. it is only those not claiming that pay for everything... if there are too many claiming and not enough paying something must give... it's not fair to rack up generational debt which must be repaid over decades...

Cheers


----------



## deargas

grahamo said:


> Most people would spend more per week on dog food for their dog.



I think this is what has brought us to this point EUR24 to feed the dog. Jeesus.


----------



## ashambles

Pretty much every government set payment or salary is too high, from social welfare to Brian Cowen's salary.

Social welfare probably could be edged downwards in a controlled and unpainful fashion if and only if other state set incomes were reduced, including minimum wage.

When I hear about government officials who not completely but in large part are overpaid to the tune of 20-30% talking about cracking down on social welfare fraud my hypocrite radar starts to go off, chances are their overpay vastly exceeds the complete income of the "fraudsters" they crack down on.


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## theengineer

We are all only a stroke of a pen away from being on social welfare


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## smiley

too much? Yes. Its a bloody disgrace.
I know of one person who had been working half time for a number of years. He gave up his job two months ago to go on social welfare. He worked out, that he was much better off..he has 2 kids and girlfriend etc.

I bet he is out working part-time still though..on the quiet.

We should report this when we suspect/see this happening...they are completely screwing you and I.
I wouldnt be a bit shy reporting them.

Contact details:
http://www.welfare.ie/EN/ContactUs/Pages/reportfraud.aspx


----------



## Mar123

Bored with public service bashing, so pick on those in receipt of social welfare.

This "I know of a distant cousins, wife's sister etc etc" heresay nonsense, to try and tar everybody with the same brush is becoming ridiculous.


----------



## sparkeee

You must walk a mile in some one elses shoes,then form an opinion.


----------



## liketoknow

assuming we are talking about all social welfare payments then what are your opinions about people on carers allowance??
i receive carers allowance 244.50 weekly made up of the allowance for myself and my child (whom i care for ) and 26 euro dependant allowance.
my other income is made up of 332 per month child benefit and 300 euro per month dca allowance.
my husband works and earns 300 euro per week and out of that pays 100 euro maintenance per week for his children from a previous relationship. 
our outgoings are as follow:
weekly
rent 55
esb 40
ph 30
coal/sticks 20
car 80
insurance 20
travel 80
main 100
food 160
1 weekly take away 25

we struggle every week, we receive reduced esb but our latest bill was 700 euro due to needing our heating on all the time for our child. 
our food bill is huge because we have 6 people to feed from friday to sunday morning as his children come up. we cant reduce our car payments as we will incur a shortfall by trading in . 
reduce my payment as we will be left with nothing, do u think im receiving too much ???? we rob peter to pay paul every week.


----------



## AlbacoreA

SS expert said:


> I sense a touch of sarcasm...?


 
No. Just wondering why selling at a loss is not an option.


----------



## Code Duello

liketoknow said:


> assuming we are talking about all social welfare payments then what are your opinions about people on carers allowance??
> i receive carers allowance 244.50 weekly made up of the allowance for myself and my child (whom i care for ) and 26 euro dependant allowance.
> my other income is made up of 332 per month child benefit and 300 euro per month dca allowance.
> my husband works and earns 300 euro per week and out of that pays 100 euro maintenance per week for his children from a previous relationship.
> our outgoings are as follow:
> weekly
> rent 55
> esb 40
> ph 30
> coal/sticks 20
> car 80
> insurance 20
> travel 80
> main 100
> food 160
> 1 weekly take away 25
> 
> we struggle every week, we receive reduced esb but our latest bill was 700 euro due to needing our heating on all the time for our child.
> our food bill is huge because we have 6 people to feed from friday to sunday morning as his children come up. we cant reduce our car payments as we will incur a shortfall by trading in .
> reduce my payment as we will be left with nothing, do u think im receiving too much ???? we rob peter to pay paul every week.


 
I think people's issue with this, and certainly my own, is that some people are being given more than they need to survive which we cannot afford at the moment. 

This would not seem to be the case in your situation, nor would it be for most carers, and I don't think anyone would begrudge you what you are receiving. 

The current Jobseeker's Benefit/Allowance on the other hand, being paid to a young single person with little or no responsilibities and outgoings can seem a little high in the current climate.


----------



## sparkeee

negative equity causes the grapes to sour.


----------



## Bronte

Yellow Belly said:


> One example of craziness is my sister in law-
> 
> unmarried mother so gets approx. €200+ per week, health board pay her rent in a new (built in 2006 3 bed semi) of €900 per month, she & her child have a medical card plus all the other free social welfare benefits. She works long hours at weekends (for cash!!!!) in a nite club/restauarant receiving €275, her boyfriend lives with her (technically not supposed to) and he earns €575 nett per week.


 
Could you clarify why your brother is not contributing?


----------



## Bronte

Could those of you who think 204 a week is excessive show how their current expenditure is anywhere close to 204.  My point being would you like to live on it.  Do you realise some people don't turn on the heat as they cannot afford it.  To those who think that the state shouldn't help pay for mortgages, which would you prefer you lose your job, then lose your house and then the state has to pay for you to rent.  How is the state losing out by paying mortgages.  It is no good pointing out certain people who commit fraud and seem to be living the high life,  there are plenty who don't and live in poverty.  Today for sure it's not a case of go out and get a job, there are no jobs.  Long term dole cheats etc will always be with us, that is a separate issue.  There is also the perennial problem of social welfare being very close to minimum wage which is a disincentive for some married people to work when they lose benefits like medical cards etc.  Also the high cost of childcare can be a disincentive to work as it would not make economic sense.


----------



## BoscoTalking

guys can you clarify that the issue is not the amount but how easy it is to defraud the state and how easy it is to get used to claiming this allowance and that allowance and suddenly the person is unable to leave it for the "real world".


----------



## Purple

pennypitstop said:


> guys can you clarify that the issue is not the amount but how easy it is to defraud the state and how easy it is to get used to claiming this allowance and that allowance and suddenly the person is unable to leave it for the "real world".



Yes, I think that’s a good question. 
I have no problem with people who need it getting welfare, I wish they could get more.
I do have a problem with those who defraud the state (steal from their neighbours) and those who choose welfare as a way of life because they are too lazy to work. I have no idea what the percentages are in each group so I’m not in a position to comment on it.


----------



## cleverclogs7

Questions like this really get my back up.I have 2 children,on rent allowance,no partner and no help from the father.
i get 254 a week,from that i pay rent contribution of 70 odd euro ,70-75 for shopping,usually 70 per week plus the usual milk,bread and so on durning the week,10e top up credit,80 credit union payments,6 garbage  every thursday,plus put money aside for gas,elect every week. so by the following wednesday before i get my next 254 i have a total of 5-12 euro.I dont drink,dont go out at weekends.
then you have to think of other things,shoes and clothes for kids,birthdays,travel expensis.


----------



## oakrise

niceoneted said:


> I look at in terms of disposable income. Someone in receipt of rent allowance, ESB credits, phone credits, tv license paid, medical card and then the welfare payment, against someone out working earning an average wage but having to pay mortgage on a modest house, maybe car loan on a modest car to get them to and from work if inadequate public transport available. sometimes the former have more disposable income and this is where I think things are unfair.
> I work full time.


 

I believe in the above argument, I work full time, had  to travel to work everyday on the train, pay mortgage, train and parking fare, pay for childcare, household bills, feeding e.t.c. At the end of the day, there is nothing left for me;I live from pay packet to packet and some of the people that I know on dole are much better off with latest cars, rent allowance and stuff like that.


----------



## MB05

I don't have a problem with the old age pension, carers allowance. I personally don't have a problem with the amount paid on the dole. I do however have a problem with the long term unemployed part of it.  There was no excuse during the boom years to be on the dole longer than a few months but year after year able bodied men and women chose to stay on it as they would lose their 'entitlements' if they found a job.  Unless the job was much better than minimum wage it didn't make sense to give up your rent allowance, medical card, dole etc.

Some people have never had a job.  They signed on after they left school and remained on it since.  This is my pet hate.  The government has let us (taxpayers) down by allowing this to happen and those on it down by allowing them to become redundant members of society.

We need a social welfare system that helps people who truly need it but it shouldn't become a gravy train.  Those that have worked and contributed via tax/PRSI should be assessed differently than those who haven't.  If people have a problem eg. can't read or write this should be addressed. Delicate subject I know but one that should be dealt with as it must be awful to go through life struggling to understand and to try to cover it up.

We are not helping these people by giving them these payments for prolonged amounts of time.  The longer you are unemployed the more unemployable you become.


----------



## Sunny

Purple said:


> Yes, I think that’s a good question.
> I have no problem with people who need it getting welfare, I wish they could get more.
> I do have a problem with those who defraud the state (steal from their neighbours) and those who choose welfare as a way of life because they are too lazy to work. I have no idea what the percentages are in each group so I’m not in a position to comment on it.


 
Totally agree. I have no doubt that there is massive fraud in social welfare. If you see that the Department saved €500 million last year by identifying fraud, it gives you a good idea about the level of fraud out there. However, if you read the posts here, there a few stories of "I know someone who"....and yet people don't report them. Its stealing and a criminal offence but people just wash their hands of it and complain that everyone on social welfare gets paid too much. 

I also agree with what you say about the people who make living their lives on welfare a lifestyle choice. There should always be an incentive for people to end their reliance on the State in the shortest possible time. I have my doubts that this always happens but I don't think people earning €200 a week are the main culprits. I take peoples point about school leavers etc getting the same level as someone who worked for 40 years though.


----------



## Purple

MB05 said:


> We are not helping these people by giving them these payments for prolonged amounts of time.  The longer you are unemployed the more unemployable you become.


 So you agree that "You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves"?


----------



## gillarosa

Mar123 said:


> Bored with public service bashing, so pick on those in receipt of social welfare.
> 
> This "I know of a distant cousins, wife's sister etc etc" heresay nonsense, to try and tar everybody with the same brush is becoming ridiculous.


 
I agree, if people actually know of Welfare fraud and it obviously bothers them why don't they report the fraudsters? It is impossible that people genuinely on any Welfare benefit are living on the pigs back.


----------



## deargas

liketoknow said:


> assuming we are talking about all social welfare payments then what are your opinions about people on carers allowance??
> i receive carers allowance 244.50 weekly made up of the allowance for myself and my child (whom i care for ) and 26 euro dependant allowance.
> my other income is made up of 332 per month child benefit and 300 euro per month dca allowance.
> my husband works and earns 300 euro per week and out of that pays 100 euro maintenance per week for his children from a previous relationship.
> our outgoings are as follow:
> weekly
> rent 55
> esb 40
> ph 30
> coal/sticks 20
> car 80
> insurance 20
> travel 80
> main 100
> food 160
> 1 weekly take away 25
> 
> we struggle every week, we receive reduced esb but our latest bill was 700 euro due to needing our heating on all the time for our child.
> our food bill is huge because we have 6 people to feed from friday to sunday morning as his children come up. we cant reduce our car payments as we will incur a shortfall by trading in .
> reduce my payment as we will be left with nothing, do u think im receiving too much ???? we rob peter to pay paul every week.



em, no. Who said anything about carers allowance. Did you read my original post. My frustration was at the high 'blanket level' of social welfare payments being thrown out, without any thought for the actual cost of living for that person, living in that area, with whatever personal circumstance.

The government, and general public, are talking about redundancies in the public sector, and I asked whether there would be a case for reducing the social welfare payments, and dedicating more staff to assessing recipients of social welfare on a more individual / regional basis.


----------



## Mpsox

Purple said:


> Yes, I think that’s a good question.
> I have no problem with people who need it getting welfare, I wish they could get more.
> I do have a problem with those who defraud the state (steal from their neighbours) and those who choose welfare as a way of life because they are too lazy to work. I have no idea what the percentages are in each group so I’m not in a position to comment on it.


 
Agree entirely with your comments on this. It's unfortunate that those who are in genuine need of social welfare get tarred with the same brush because of layabouts, fraudsters and thieves who abuse the system

However I also have an issue with how social welfare can act as a disencentive to work. An example, I had an employee who came to me a month ago asking to reduce his working week from 5 days to 3 days. When I asked him why, he told me he had worked out that he would be financially better off if he did this because of the social welfare payments he would get in return. Glad to say I refused his request but that is an example of the quite frankly stupid way the system works. And before anyone asks, this guy's salary is 15% above the minimum wage


----------



## Purple

liketoknow said:


> assuming we are talking about all social welfare payments then what are your opinions about people on carers allowance??
> i receive carers allowance 244.50 weekly made up of the allowance for myself and my child (whom i care for ) and 26 euro dependant allowance.
> my other income is made up of 332 per month child benefit and 300 euro per month dca allowance.
> my husband works and earns 300 euro per week and out of that pays 100 euro maintenance per week for his children from a previous relationship.
> our outgoings are as follow:
> weekly
> rent 55
> esb 40
> ph 30
> coal/sticks 20
> car 80
> insurance 20
> travel 80
> main 100
> food 160
> 1 weekly take away 25
> 
> we struggle every week, we receive reduced esb but our latest bill was 700 euro due to needing our heating on all the time for our child.
> our food bill is huge because we have 6 people to feed from friday to sunday morning as his children come up. we cant reduce our car payments as we will incur a shortfall by trading in .
> reduce my payment as we will be left with nothing, do u think im receiving too much ???? we rob peter to pay paul every week.



Your husband’s income, if he only works 39 hours a week, is below the minimum wage. How come?
Your food bill still seems high. We have 5 in our house, we are not on a low income, and there no way it would ever cost over €100 a week for food.
€30 a week for a phone is also very high.
If your rent is only €55 a week then you are also getting rent support. This is worth at least another €100 a week to you.


----------



## deargas

I'm not talking about welfare fraud. Nothing to do with the original question. In general, I think that social welfare payments are too high in this country. 

To those on social welfare payments, the people paying for you, i.e. the tax payer, me being one of them; I have an entitlement to question whether the payments being received are too high. If I am being asked to take a 10-20% cut in my salary, then what proportion of a reduction should be levied against social welfare?

My friend, (not hearsay, or "I know someone who knows someone through a friend of a friend"), is a single man, in his early thirties, with no kids, loans, mortgages or any other of the modern drains on income.

He has at least EUR100 extra cash every week to enjoy himself with. I am angry that this is the case. Why should I, and everyone else, be struggling to contribute to this country's economy, while people like him, sit and enjoy themselves? Report him - for what? Being a lazy twat. He says he's looking for work, but just can't find any - don't you know all Irish businesses only employ Polish people?

Where is the system that helps this individual to get work, or forces them.

I never said that 'Cathy', a single mum, with 2 kids getting no support, a house in Cork city, is getting too much money, or is living in the lap of luxury.

Quite the opposite. I think Cathy should be getting more support, no problem with it. I have a sister in law in a similar position. She is a single mum, who put herself through college, got her degree & h'dip. , and is now a full time teacher, all since she's had her kid. I don't think people like this get near enough support.

What is wrong with assessing the average cost of living in each county, and major town / city? Cut social welfare based on these regional figures, and devote more people to assessing whether the few need more cash to survive?

In the examples of people getting hot blood above; they are all outside what I would call 'the norm'

You have dependant children
You are a single mother
You are a carer

All of these are circumstances which can be, and are currently, addressed outside the scope of social welfare payments.

Guys, it comes down to this; The country is on it's knees, many don't realize it, or think we're all rosey; I want to live in this country, and I want it to prosper, but these are hard times. If the government comes out tomorrow and says the basic tax rate is going up to 25%, fine. If that's what we need, then I'm ok with it. I just want to make sure money is being spent where it's needed.


----------



## Sunny

And I don't think anyone would argue with you on any of your points. My point is that you can't make a general statement of saying social welfare is too high based on your friend. I am assuming you earn alot more than €200 a week so a 10% paycut for you is not the same as a 10% pay cut for someone on €200 a week. So whats a proper level? 1% cut, 2% cut? Your idea of tailoring social welfare payments to each individuals living requirement would be an administrative and possibly legal nightmare. You would also open the system up to large fraud if you decided that people in Dublin deserved to be paid more than someone in Carlow because the cost of living was higher. Wait and see the amount of people who suddenly got Dublin addresses!


----------



## gillarosa

Purple said:


> So you agree that "You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves"?


 
Purple....have you finally found a kindred spirit?


----------



## MB05

Purple,

I guess I am saying that.  I just think if you have never worked a day in your life and you have been on the dole for years it is very hard to adjust to working life.  Most of us who have worked all our adult lives have to get up at a certain time, dress a certain way, conform to the norm of your everyday working life.  We mightn't like it but it has to be done.  We bite our tongue when we don't agree with the boss etc.  

Anybody who has never worked and has been on the dole for years will be doing well to get a job better than minimum wage (to begin with).  I can't see them adjusting to being told where to be, what to do and how to do it very easily especially when they have a comparable income from doing nothing.


----------



## deargas

All I'm doing is asking the question?

Why can I not make a general statement? Social Welfare payments are a general payment, not specific cases. As for working out the cost of living in each county / major town;
1 person required per major city / town - take an average of 2 major towns per county, and then those living outside of these catchment areas, that 3 samples per county.

Work out the cost of food, rent etc. for each area, maybe at most 5 days of effort per area. that's 15 days or 3 weeks of effort per county x 26 counties = 1.5 years.

Give yourself some padding and employ 2 people to do this, with another team of 20 to allocate each person into these areas. 

Do you really think that people living in say, Leitrim will suddenly start moving into Sligo or Dublin just to get an additional amount in their allowance? If so then that might be a good thing. In that it might actually make someone get off their backside and do something.


As for earning more than EUR200, yes I earn more than that, but after tax, bills and food costs are paid, I don't think I'm much better off than my friend at EUR100 per week spare cash.


----------



## AlbacoreA

jaybird said:


> Because you would still owe the bank the difference between the sale price and your mortgage, and would still be making payments on a house you are not living in, coupled with trying to fund an alternative place to live, as well as eat and stuff.
> I can't imagine how anyone could afford that.


 
Not sure the Govt can afford to pay peoples mortgages either considering the topic is suggesting people get paid too much social welfare.


----------



## pebbledash

cleverclogs7 said:


> Questions like this really get my back up.I have 2 children,on rent allowance,no partner and no help from the father.


 
Every situation is different, so I'm not commenting on your specific situation - I know nothing about your life.

I made a decision not to have children until I could support them, if that time never came I simply wouldn't have children. I see women in the same neighbourhood as me given 3 bed houses because they have 2 children. There is no incentive to work there. State would be better off paying for childcare instead of social housing/rent allowance and other allowances.

I have seen lots of women all around me have child after child that they cannot afford to support. There is an expectation among some young girls / women that they are entitled to have as many kids as they want and are entitled to state support.

So while it is a very sensitive subject and care must be taken to consider individual circumstances, I feel that people also have a right to raise these issues.


----------



## Ger

pebbledash said:


> There is an expectation among some young girls / women that they are entitled to have as many kids as they want and are entitled to state support.
> .



Is it not the case that since Ireland has put a ban on abortion and has generally taken a pro-life stance, the state is compelled to support mothers, as is also guareenteed  in the constitution.


----------



## liketoknow

Purple said:


> Your husband’s income, if he only works 39 hours a week, is below the minimum wage. How come?
> Your food bill still seems high. We have 5 in our house, we are not on a low income, and there no way it would ever cost over €100 a week for food.
> €30 a week for a phone is also very high.
> If your rent is only €55 a week then you are also getting rent support. This is worth at least another €100 a week to you.


we do not get rent support, we have a council house and our rent in 55 a week. our phone bill is high as we are in constant contact with our childs hospital. our food bill is high as this bill includes some medications not covered by our childs medical card also. we buy nappies wipes and special food for child as well as food etc for the other 5 people. whatever rent support is , we dont receive it.
my husband works 30 hrs a week.


----------



## Purple

MB05 said:


> Purple,
> 
> I guess I am saying that.  I just think if you have never worked a day in your life and you have been on the dole for years it is very hard to adjust to working life.  Most of us who have worked all our adult lives have to get up at a certain time, dress a certain way, conform to the norm of your everyday working life.  We mightn't like it but it has to be done.  We bite our tongue when we don't agree with the boss etc.
> 
> Anybody who has never worked and has been on the dole for years will be doing well to get a job better than minimum wage (to begin with).  I can't see them adjusting to being told where to be, what to do and how to do it very easily especially when they have a comparable income from doing nothing.


That's what I'm saying as well.


----------



## room305

liketoknow said:


> we do not get rent support, we have a council house and our rent in 55 a week. our phone bill is high as we are in constant contact with our childs hospital. our food bill is high as this bill includes some medications not covered by our childs medical card also. we buy nappies wipes and special food for child as well as food etc for the other 5 people. whatever rent support is , we dont receive it.
> my husband works 30 hrs a week.



Rent support would only apply to those not availing of social/council housing. In essence your rent is subsidised since the council charge according to your ability to repay rather than the prevailing market rate. I have no idea how this is determined however.


----------



## room305

I wonder has anyone given consideration to a universal welfare payment? Those in gainful employment can offset the payment against their tax liability. Those on very low or no means would receive it in cash.

The key benefit of such a system is that it avoids people falling into the benefits trap, as they are free to work even on a part-time basis and not fare any worse than if they existed solely on benefits.

It can be argued that there is no incentive for people to do so (since they will receive the cash anyway) but getting back to work is a tough process for long-term unemployed. Many want to work but are scared to lose the benefits they currently enjoy. It isn't necessarily easy to jump straight into full-time employment.

This way they could begin working on a part-time basis seeking to gradually improve their skills and productivity, increasing the opportunities for full-time employment, without being penalised for it.


----------



## csirl

room305 said:


> I wonder has anyone given consideration to a universal welfare payment? Those in gainful employment can offset the payment against their tax liability. Those on very low or no means would receive it in cash.
> 
> The key benefit of such a system is that it avoids people falling into the benefits trap, as they are free to work even on a part-time basis and not fare any worse than if they existed solely on benefits.
> 
> It can be argued that there is no incentive for people to do so (since they will receive the cash anyway) but getting back to work is a tough process for long-term unemployed. Many want to work but are scared to lose the benefits they currently enjoy. It isn't necessarily easy to jump straight into full-time employment.
> 
> This way they could begin working on a part-time basis seeking to gradually improve their skills and productivity, increasing the opportunities for full-time employment, without being penalised for it.


 
This is the fully refundable tax credit idea - worth looking at. Essentially everyone gets X amount of money - you can claim the cash or you can use it as a tax credit or a combination of both. If you earn more than the amount, it is taxed. Replaces both the social welfare and tax credits systems currently in use.


----------



## bamboozle

To answer the OP's question, i am in no way cheesed off with how much people get on social welfare.  What p1sses me off is the money the idiots who got us into this mess are earning AKA Fianna Fail and their chums in government.  The majority of people want to work, and many people have been left with no choice but to go on the dole as they have lost their jobs.

Of course social welfare fruad is a completely different thing- that i am completely against and staff who are twiddling thumbs in various state departments around the country should be transferred to dept of social welfare to help the crack down.


----------



## kit

cleverclogs7 said:


> Questions like this really get my back up.I have 2 children,on rent allowance,no partner and no help from the father.
> i get 254 a week,from that i pay rent contribution of 70 odd euro ,70-75 for shopping,usually 70 per week plus the usual milk,bread and so on durning the week,10e top up credit,80 credit union payments,6 garbage every thursday,plus put money aside for gas,elect every week. so by the following wednesday before i get my next 254 i have a total of 5-12 euro.I dont drink,dont go out at weekends.
> then you have to think of other things,shoes and clothes for kids,birthdays,travel expensis.


 
So between rent allowance and lone parents you are coming out with about €500 per week. I'm a single mother too and after paying tax my take home pay is about €50 more than that. I have to pay €180 childcare, €220 mortgage, private healthcare as I don't qualify for a medical card, house insurance, car loans/running costs & all the other bills you mentioned. All my daughters clothes are hand-me-downs from friends and family, the only new things she gets are presents. So for that 5-12 euro at the end of the week I have to work 39 hours! 

Now I'm not saying you are on the gravy train or anything, it's just that this shows how crazy the system is.


----------



## sandrat

liketoknow said:


> we do not get rent support, we have a council house and our rent in 55 a week. our phone bill is high as we are in constant contact with our childs hospital. our food bill is high as this bill includes some medications not covered by our childs medical card also. we buy nappies wipes and special food for child as well as food etc for the other 5 people. whatever rent support is , we dont receive it.
> my husband works 30 hrs a week.


 
30 euro a week for a phone? a landline or mobile? 
you can get a landline with free national calls for about 30 euro a month as far as I know. Can you get your doctor to write prescription for the special baby food and medicines?


----------



## liketoknow

sandrat said:


> 30 euro a week for a phone? a landline or mobile?
> you can get a landline with free national calls for about 30 euro a month as far as I know. Can you get your doctor to write prescription for the special baby food and medicines?


not everything is covered on the medical card. special foods that my child needs are not covered on the card. my other child requires special bandages nightly for a severe skin condition. these are not covered on the med card either. these bandaged costs 7.00euro for one roll. to cover his body he needs two rolls, on average he needs this done three times a week as well as two baths a day with a special body wash costing 11 euro a bottle. NONE of this is covered by the medical card. the phone bill is high as we use it alot, for the hospital , we have an eircom bundle for 67euro a month not including mobile calls.


----------



## AlbacoreA

sandrat said:


> you can get a landline with free national calls for about 30 euro a month as far as I know. ...


 
Where?


----------



## extopia

bamboozle said:


> What p1sses me off is the money the idiots who got us into this mess are earning AKA Fianna Fail and their chums in government.




Yes, but we are the idiots who voted these other idiots into government. Collectively, we get the government (and the society) we deserve.


----------



## bamboozle

extopia said:


> Yes, but we are the idiots who voted these other idiots into government. Collectively, we get the government (and the society) we deserve.


 
For the record i have never voted for those idiots.  Fianna Fail get so many votes not on the quality of their candidate but on old family ties & loyalties rather than on their performance in government.

Hopefully next election people will finally use logic when voting rather than doing what their parents did.


----------



## Purple

bamboozle said:


> For the record i have never voted for those idiots.  Fianna Fail get so many votes not on the quality of their candidate but on old family ties & loyalties rather than on their performance in government.
> 
> Hopefully next election people will finally use logic when voting rather than doing what their parents did.


FF get elected because of the lack of a quality alternative.


----------



## AlbacoreA

Purple said:


> FF get elected because of the lack of a quality alternative.


 
Well voting for "quality" has worked well hasn't it. 

We need better quality politicians. Obviously high salaries isn't what is needed.


----------



## Purple

AlbacoreA said:


> Well (for those that did) voting for "quality" has worked well hasn't it.


I never said they were quality either.


----------



## Shawady

Is it possible for self-employed people to claim unemployment benefit also? I assume the answer is obviously not.
However, I was talking to a guy last week that was made redundant last year and signed on the dole. He has since start driving a taxi a few months ago but still claims his unemployment benefit. I assume at some stage this is going to become clear to the powers that be.
Don't self-employed people have to submit a tax clearance cert every year and it will be on the system if they are claiming for anything else?
He did not seem bothered, which made me think is there some loop hole or is he just burying his head in the sand.


----------



## AlbacoreA

Purple said:


> I never said they were quality either.


 
Then your comment makes no sense.


----------



## extopia

bamboozle said:


> For the record i have never voted for those idiots.



Me neither. That's why I used the word "collectively."


----------



## Purple

AlbacoreA said:


> Then your comment makes no sense.



One is bad, the other is worse. People vote for the least worst option or, to paraphrase, “getter the gob****es you know that the gob****es you don’t” 

Now do you understand?


----------



## Sunny

Purple said:


> FF get elected because of the lack of a quality alternative.


 
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/the-oppositions--proposals-1618627.html

I think looking at these proposals from the opposition proves your point!


----------



## Bubbles34

cleverclogs7 said:


> Questions like this really get my back up.I have 2 children,on rent allowance,no partner and no help from the father.
> i get 254 a week,from that i pay rent contribution of 70 odd euro ,70-75 for shopping,usually 70 per week plus the usual milk,bread and so on durning the week,10e top up credit,80 credit union payments,6 garbage every thursday,plus put money aside for gas,elect every week. so by the following wednesday before i get my next 254 i have a total of 5-12 euro.I dont drink,dont go out at weekends.
> then you have to think of other things,shoes and clothes for kids,birthdays,travel expensis.


 

Can I just point out that you are paying 320 Euros on Credit union monthly from the money you are getting - that's the reason there is nothing left. Without the credit union it should be working out ok.


----------



## AlbacoreA

You're playing semantics. The word quality can mean bad quality or qood quality. Not just good quality. You're still saying that people voted on the basis that one is less bad than the other. 

The perception of FF being better, however relative that is, than the alternative is deeply flawed. Things do not have to be illegal to be morally bankrupt. We've had one sour story after another from FF.


----------



## sandrat

liketoknow said:


> not everything is covered on the medical card. special foods that my child needs are not covered on the card. my other child requires special bandages nightly for a severe skin condition. these are not covered on the med card either. these bandaged costs 7.00euro for one roll. to cover his body he needs two rolls, on average he needs this done three times a week as well as two baths a day with a special body wash costing 11 euro a bottle. NONE of this is covered by the medical card. the phone bill is high as we use it alot, for the hospital , we have an eircom bundle for 67euro a month not including mobile calls.


 
My eircom bundle is 45 a month including internet and free landline calls and free calls to meteor. The suggestion on getting prescriptions was based on the fact that I know my aunt gets her baby formula on prescription and anything else medicine wise she needs  so that if it goes above the drug payment card threshold in a month it is free. Surely anything prescribed by your doctor is free if you have a medical card?


----------



## liketoknow

no , for instance yesterday my child was prescribed zirtek, it cost me almost ten euros , it was written  on the prescription but wasnt covered by the med card so i had to pay. Not everything is covered.


----------



## Purple

AlbacoreA said:


> You're playing semantics. The word quality can mean bad quality or qood quality. Not just good quality. You're still saying that people voted on the basis that one is less bad than the other.
> 
> The perception of FF being better, however relative that is, than the alternative is deeply flawed. Things do not have to be illegal to be morally bankrupt. We've had one sour story after another from FF.



Have you read the link posted by Sunny?
Fg still don't have the balls to propose major changes (despite the best efforts of Richard Bruton).

If Labour got their way we'd be emigrating to Gaza within 5 years. Give me corruption over imbeciles any day of the week! 

The Shinners are still wishing for 1950's Soviet Russia.


----------



## AlbacoreA

You've no list for FF, because they keep doing U-Turns on their changes, or they don't do anything, but talk about it. Still they can always fall back on the horses. But I've a feeling the horse has already bolted.


----------



## Purple

AlbacoreA said:


> You've no list for FF, because they keep doing U-Turns on their changes, or they don't do anything, but talk about it. Still they can always fall back on the horses.


 I agree, so what we we do? That's all I'm saying; we get to pick which group we think will do least harm.


----------



## AlbacoreA

Based on their track record. FF for least harm?


----------



## Purple

AlbacoreA said:


> Based on their track record. FF for least harm?


 Hard to know. The Rainbow government weren't bad but the FG/Labour government in the 80's was possible the worst we have ever had.


I have no faith in Enda Kenny (yes, even less than I have in Cowan) but Richard Bruton is impressive. Eamonn Gilmore is impressive but Joan Burton is a joke. Who gets what job?


----------



## AlbacoreA

I can't disagree with any of that.


----------



## Green

Purple said:


> FF get elected because of the lack of a quality alternative.


 
That's a cop out....


----------



## AlbacoreA

Only partially. The other parties have been weak. At this point that might be better though. Its a bit like getting the new lads off the bench for a football team, instead of keep playing the old guard.


----------



## Purple

YOBR said:


> That's a cop out....



No its not...


----------



## AlbacoreA

Oh great, panto season...


----------



## irishlinks

Back on to the original question ......
I think that for a young person / school leaver that 204 euro a week jobseekers plus help with rent is way too much. Someone would have to work about 30 hours on the min wage to get that. With rates in the UK for under 25s at just  £48 a week (plus help with rent) - we are way too generous. It does not encourage anyone to get a job - even if there are any.


----------



## Green

Purple said:


> No its not...


 
It is a cop out. FF have been institutionally corrupt for a long time and anything would be better than them. The present circumstances are directly attributable to them.


----------



## Purple

YOBR said:


> It is a cop out. FF have been institutionally corrupt for a long time and anything would be better than them. The present circumstances are directly attributable to them.


Anything? Sinn Fein and their communist isolationism? 
I didn't hear the opposition want about what was going to happen 18-24 months ago. If anything a government with Labour in it would have spent more and been further into the pockets of the unions.
As long a we had social(ist) partnership rather than democracy we were going to end up here.


----------



## maura

How much is the average mortgage these days and bills, food, etc?  If you have a single income family with kids, I don't think it would be enough. It may not even cover most mortgages taken out in the last couple of years.

On a note about Government, I cannot believe that Brian earns more than Barack??


----------



## Green

Purple said:


> Anything? Sinn Fein and their communist isolationism?
> I didn't hear the opposition want about what was going to happen 18-24 months ago. If anything a government with Labour in it would have spent more and been further into the pockets of the unions.
> As long a we had social(ist) partnership rather than democracy we were going to end up here.


 
So we just stick with FF so? Knowing their corruption where senior figures such as Ray Burke were arrested by CAB, thats a type of Govt you want to see continue?


----------



## room305

maura said:


> How much is the average mortgage these days and bills, food, etc?  If you have a single income family with kids, I don't think it would be enough. It may not even cover most mortgages taken out in the last couple of years.
> 
> On a note about Government, I cannot believe that Brian earns more than Barack??



If you have dependents you get more than than the minimum allowance. 

There is also a scheme in place to apply to have the interest on your mortgage paid, although this is administered by the HSE and can be a bit arbitrary in practice from what I've heard.


----------



## JoeB

Quote:


			
				pebbledash said:
			
		

> There is an expectation among some young girls / women that they are entitled to have as many kids as they want and are entitled to state support.


.



Ger said:


> Is it not the case that since Ireland has put a ban on abortion and has generally taken a pro-life stance, the state is compelled to support mothers, as is also guareenteed  in the constitution.




He he, very true. Ok, so it could be said that we, as a country, are paying out excessive amounts of welfare to young single mothers in support and housing payments...  this is fundamentally due to a Catholic religious ideal.. that the family and life etc are amazing and should always be defended...

So if that is one of our problems what about this.??... Abortion should be mandatory if an expectant mother can't demonstrate the means (and the parenting skills!) to care for the child. There, I've said it. Maybe I'm a fascist.

(Of course I would have preferred to see money well spent during the good years on education and creating opportunities in dis-advantaged areas... )

Cheers
Joe


----------



## RMCF

I have only moved to RoI about 8 years ago, and have always been employed in this time.

I was only ever unemployed in NI, and that was a long time ago, but I have to admit that I think the benefits in the RoI are VERY generous.


As I have never 'signed on' in Ireland, is it still not compulsory to sign on weekly as in NI? If not, then this is only allowing people to scam the system. I had heard stories about people only having to sign on very infrequently (even being able to fly in to do it??) - and indeed claim for children too not in the country!!. Surely it should be compulsory to physically sign on every week, to make sure that people are actually here.


----------



## parkmagic

deargas said:


> I asked him candidly over the Christmas period, if you didn't smoke or drink for the week, how much would it cost you to live.
> 
> He said around EUR75.
> 
> So that's an extra EUR 100 he's got to 'enjoy himself' with every week.
> 
> .


 
No Drink or smoking and you asking how much he has to enjoy himself, kind of missing out on some enjoyment then i think.


----------



## Purple

YOBR said:


> So we just stick with FF so? Knowing their corruption where senior figures such as Ray Burke were arrested by CAB, thats a type of Govt you want to see continue?


 Of course I don't want to see a corrupt government, I want to see a competent one that governs for the people. I can’t see any party in the Dail giving us that.


----------



## Bronte

Talking of corrupt government I see they are now proposing to help people on social welfare etc to rent houses/get housing and how are they going to do this?  They are going to lease all those lovely empty houses that the builders/developers have lying empty and they are going to lease them from the builder/developer.   All in the guise of helping the poor people on social welfare.  I don't know how the Irish people haven't started protesting with their pots and lids like the Icelanders did.  At least the over 70's had a bit of gumption.


----------



## callybags

Bronte said:


> Talking of corrupt government I see they are now proposing to help people on social welfare etc to rent houses/get housing and how are they going to do this? They are going to lease all those lovely empty houses that the builders/developers have lying empty and they are going to lease them from the builder/developer. All in the guise of helping the poor people on social welfare. I don't know how the Irish people haven't started protesting with their pots and lids like the Icelanders did. At least the over 70's had a bit of gumption.


 
Protest about what?  This seems like a perfectly good proposition to me.
People in need of housing get housed.
Builders who are in financial trouble get some income coming in.
Banks who are in trouble get some income from developers and so reduce the possibilities of bad debts.

What is the alternative way open to the government to provide social housing?  Build yet more units?


----------



## cleverclogs7

I see it like this.The goverment needs to save 2bn so lets introduce the electric chair to sex offeners,murders,peods and drug trafficers.it would empty out the over populated prisions and save tax payers money and the country millions.Oh..i forgot we'r a catholic country.To bad.


----------



## room305

callybags said:


> Protest about what?  This seems like a perfectly good proposition to me.
> People in need of housing get housed.
> Builders who are in financial trouble get some income coming in.
> Banks who are in trouble get some income from developers and so reduce the possibilities of bad debts.
> 
> What is the alternative way open to the government to provide social housing?  Build yet more units?



They are building the ghettos of tomorrow with this plan. Remember this was how Ballymun started. They are also paying vastly over the odds on the leases and nobody seems to know who will maintain the properties and deal with the tenants over this period. I'm guessing the councils.

It would probably be cheaper to build the units since at least there would be some assurance as to the standard of the properties to be maintained.


----------



## Raskolnikov

I don't think anyone here has a problem social welfare payments for people who have recently lost their job. If you've got a mortgage, a car to run, etc; it's not easy to take such a dramatic step down in salary.

The thing that most people take issue with, is the long-term unemployed. If you ask me, Job Seekers Allowance should be halved if you've been continuous unemployed for more than three years.


----------



## Chocks away

And watch the crime rate soar? I imagine one of the ideas of Social Welfare is to stop lawlessness.


----------



## sfag

This is a moronic subject. The anecdote supplied is worthless.
No one can survice on social welfare alone.
It will feed you and not much else. 

The principal of this society is no one starves.
Social welfare is suppose to help that.

As for the self employed company directory - Yes you are entitled to social welfare - you might be glad of it some day.


----------



## Purple

sfag said:


> This is a moronic subject. The anecdote supplied is worthless.
> No one can survice on social welfare alone.
> It will feed you and not much else.
> 
> The principal of this society is no one starves.
> Social welfare is suppose to help that.


Good post.


----------



## deargas

parkmagic said:


> No Drink or smoking and you asking how much he has to enjoy himself, kind of missing out on some enjoyment then i think.



oh ya, sure. Do you want EUR100 of my hard earned cash to enjoy yourself with too? Don't you see? That's the whole crux of my point. Why the hell should someone have EUR100 per week extra to smoke and drink their lives away? And it'll invariably cost me more money when his liver fails and gets cancer, as he's got full entitlement to the medical card.


----------



## mr zulu

where i work they were looking for voluntary redundacies,so one worker who has a partner and 3 kids decided to go because he would get 430 euro a week on dole,plus medical card,plus his affordable house rent reduced to 18 euro a week.I was talking to him yesterday and he said he would be a fool to go back to work again.this really annoys me as i pay top tax to fund his life stlyle.


----------



## mr zulu

well when i said dole,i meant unemployment Benefit and yes  he does get 430euro a week,plus he was paying 80euro a week rent for his house,he didnt go for the buy option,all this is a fact,why dont you check it out on the social welfare page and see for yourself.


----------



## thaiaddict

i wonder, how many contributing on this forum work for banks??

gobless...


----------



## irishlinks

mr zulu said:


> well when i said dole,i meant unemployment Benefit and yes  he does get 430euro a week,plus he was paying 80euro a week rent for his house,he didnt go for the buy option,all this is a fact,why dont you check it out on the social welfare page and see for yourself.



It should be 204.30 for himself  plus 135.60 for partner plus 26 per child = 78 
Total  417.90 a week  - not far off 430 plus the reduction in rent of 62 a week.
I can see that some people on a wage of below say €14 an hour would be tempted to stay on the Jobseekers Benefit for as long as possible - they will be just as well off (maybe better!). 
Many people don't realise how much benefist they can get - and now many are going to be claiming for the first time and will realise they can live just as well by doing nothing. The wage levels are amongst the highest in the EU - so we are told - so they can't be raised. The benefit levels need to be looked at surely?


----------



## Complainer

JoeBallantin said:


> He he, very true. Ok, so it could be said that we, as a country, are paying out excessive amounts of welfare to young single mothers in support and housing payments...  this is fundamentally due to a Catholic religious ideal.. that the family and life etc are amazing and should always be defended...
> 
> So if that is one of our problems what about this.??... Abortion should be mandatory if an expectant mother can't demonstrate the means (and the parenting skills!) to care for the child. There, I've said it. Maybe I'm a fascist.
> 
> (Of course I would have preferred to see money well spent during the good years on education and creating opportunities in dis-advantaged areas... )


Don't give facists a bad name. Your mandatory abortion proposal isn't facism. It is 100 times worse. It is completely abhorrent. I'd imagine that on mature reflection, you will realise this and see the light. Just think about how many of your family/friends/colleagues would not have passed your cash test. But if not, can I suggest that you accompany me to meet a range of family, friends, work colleagues who would undoubtedly have failed your economic barrier. I'd really like to see you look them in the eye and tell them they should have been aborted - that they had no right to live their lives because their parent(s) didn't have enough money. Better still, let's just go on a tour of certain areas of Dublin and you can stand on a soap box singing about your proposal. I'd be most interested in seeing the outcome.

The logical conclusion of your proposal is that of course, once an older person is unable to support themselves, we take them out (and I'm not talking about a date here). How many of the Dell 1800 employees who've lost their jobs would fail your economic test, and therefore be liable for the chop?


----------



## grahamo

mr zulu said:


> well when i said dole,i meant unemployment Benefit and yes he does get 430euro a week,plus he was paying 80euro a week rent for his house,he didnt go for the buy option,all this is a fact,why dont you check it out on the social welfare page and see for yourself.


 

Unemployment Benefit, I think its Jobseekers benefit these days, is paid for by your own PRSI contributions. How is your tax paying for this?


----------



## nesbitt

theengineer said:


> We are all only a stroke of a pen away from being on social welfare


  I agree.

Do I think 204euro pw is too much.  No not with the cost of living in Ireland.  I think you can exist keep your head above water on SW.  

However after reading through the posts on this thread (phew!).  I do think that there is a vast differeance between receiving a SW payment honestly or fraudently.  All allowances other than JSB is means tested.  Go on Citizens Advice website and check out what would be your allowances if you suddenly found you were unwaged....  Think about how you would survive not live.  No you will not get your ESB, or TV licence etc. paid..... unless you are elderly.   Fraudulent SW recipaints do very well for themselves and IMO are thieves and the lowest of the low.  Any ordinary Jo(e) who happens to find themselves in the unhappy situation of needing to rely on SW well that is a totally different matter.


----------



## cleverclogs7

Bubbles34 said:


> Can I just point out that you are paying 320 Euros on Credit union monthly from the money you are getting - that's the reason there is nothing left. Without the credit union it should be working out ok.


 

Yes ,and how do you think i would get 1st and lasts months deposit for my rent.s.w dont help with this when you get r/a.
Think before you speak.


----------



## BigCon

I think the majority of people have no problem with anyone claiming all their social welfare entitlements provided that they are not commiting fraud and they are genuinely looking for work.

It's a bit different now in that jobs are hard to come by, but there was no excuse for anyone on the dole during the boom years (anyone under 40). 
A maximum of six months dole allowance should have been implemented back then...


----------



## Purple

The question is not if people deserve it, we need to ask if the country can afford to pay it.


----------



## nesbitt

Purple said:


> The question is not if people deserve it, we need to ask if the country can afford to pay it.


No I do not think the country can afford to pay for sw fraudsters or sw tourists!  The Govt should be leaving no stone unturned to stamp benefit theft out. I think duplicate/inflated claims must be a huge drain on an overwhelmed system.  I absolutely detest the 'SW tourists' that have arrived in ROI, avail of SW, Education system and public healthcare.  This is of course a 'hot potato' issue....


----------



## Purple

nesbitt said:


> I absolutely detest the 'SW tourists' that have arrived in ROI, avail of SW, Education system and public healthcare.  This is of course a 'hot potato' issue....


 Just like the Irish have done in the UK for decades...


----------



## mishmash

I totally agree. I am keeping my head down working away.

Recently as work, a Polish member or staff asked me if I could fire her, so see could return to Poland and collect Job seekers allowance from the Irish government for a further 9 weeks. She informed me, she had many Polish friends and relatives who were in recepit of monies from the irish social welfare system while now fully rsident in Poland.

Made me sick to my teeth. Needless to say, she is still working head down!


----------



## ninsaga

I thought that they had to sign on now every week to counteract this problem?


----------



## MandaC

nesbitt said:


> I agree.
> 
> Do I think 204euro pw is too much.  No not with the cost of living in Ireland.  I think you can exist keep your head above water on SW.
> 
> However after reading through the posts on this thread (phew!).  I do think that there is a vast differeance between receiving a SW payment honestly or fraudently.  All allowances other than JSB is means tested.  Go on Citizens Advice website and check out what would be your allowances if you suddenly found you were unwaged....  Think about how you would survive not live.  No you will not get your ESB, or TV licence etc. paid..... unless you are elderly.   Fraudulent SW recipaints do very well for themselves and IMO are thieves and the lowest of the low.  Any ordinary Jo(e) who happens to find themselves in the unhappy situation of needing to rely on SW well that is a totally different matter.



Agree with the sentiments above. Could I live on €204 per week. No way. It would barely pay my mortgage.

 It is not correct to say, however, that people on JSB do not get ESB/Gas etc paid.

If you visit the Relieving Officer, they can make special hardship payments depending on the individual circumstances.

I also think the SW tourists should be tackled head on.  It is such a hot potato issue that people are afraid of confronting such people and  being labelled racist.

The most relevant point for me too, is the comment that we are all just one step away from Social Welfare.  Never a truer word spoken in today's climate.


----------



## nesbitt

Purple said:


> Just like the Irish have done in the UK for decades...


  I agree that there was mass exodus from our shores in past decades.  The exodus was a reluctant reality, working long and hard hours to survive not a planned exercise to be a SW tourist.  The UK authorities got great value out of our citizens labour.  Not a like for like situation at all in my book.


----------



## Lak

The crazy situation is the fact that you do not need to fraudulantly abuse the system to be financilly better off.
My wife works full time and I have not worked since November, I am a builder plasterer by trade and do not need to elaborate on the bleak outlook on that front.
As a self employed individual having paid my taxes year on year and an S stamp it transpires I am entitled to precisely nothing in welfare payments so we live off one wage as do thousands of formely S/E workers.
My wife was concerned at losing her job in the public sector but having done the maths we would have been financially better off to both be on the dole. Two social welfare payments, two children taken out of pre school (huge saving) the miriad of welfare payments would lead us to be better off which I found astonishing.
Ironically my wife works for the Local employment service and is fully familiar with the welfare incomes that those who use the service recieve and it is disturbing in light of those like ourselves who are prepared to work hard and not be a burden to any one.
An example : Non national receives all the benefits going and comes into the office with a form to be signed  for his wife to receive a PPs number. He is quite open about the fact that she is living in Poland and has no intention of coming to Ireland as she has a job at home, all he requires is an official signature as this is all that is required to recieve the PPs and claim benefits for his wife....his justification, everyone is doing it! (it didnt get signed, but would have been elsewhere) This is not a slur on non nationals, I have worked alongside many and they put the Irish to shame with their work ethic.
As for working for your Dole, there is a scheme called a CE scheme where long term unemployed can work three days a week in all manner of services that benefit the community and country as a whole for just a few euro more above the welfare payments, this is a voluntary scheme which many people happily partake of in order to keep a sense of dignity, a sense of contribution and to keep themselves busy and sane........only the government have in their wisdom imposed a two month embargo on anyone taking up this option, and may even be scrapped alltogether.
Welfare payments are far to high, even those on income support should share the burden. Signing once a month into a bank account is a system open to abuse.
Last point : I worked in a gang alongside another guy, he is single and rents a four bed new house paid for by the state alongside his €204 euro, medical card etc etc and has no intention of taking a full time job again other than the odd day cash here and there. By comparison I get no financial assistance whatsoever with three children and a mortgage, am not bitter I spent a small fortune to become a BER assessor, even if it has thus far been a damp sqib...but that is a different moan alltogether !!!


----------



## rabbit

deargas said:


> One of the few things that went up in the last budget was the Social Welfare payment, to around EUR 209 per week.
> 
> Does someone really need EUR 209 per week to survive.
> 
> A friend of mine is getting rent allowance, lives in a 1 bed apartment in Letterkenny.
> 
> He has to pay an additional EUR 35 out of his social welfare to cover the shortfall in rent allowance.
> 
> I asked him candidly over the Christmas period, if you didn't smoke or drink for the week, how much would it cost you to live.
> 
> He said around EUR75.
> 
> So that's an extra EUR 100 he's got to 'enjoy himself' with every week.
> 
> Surely social welfare should be means or locally assessed. i.e. the cost of living in Dublin would be much higher than in the wilds of Donegal, or families with additional mouths to feed etc.
> 
> Also, the person just made unemployed with a hefty mortgage to pay, yes I accept the case for needing to pay a higher amount here too.
> 
> But my original question was this. Do you pay too much in Social Welfare payments.
> 
> Consider that social welfare in England at the moment is around EUR70 per week.
> 
> If you feel like replying, I'd appreciate it if you could say whether you are receiving Social Welfare payments or not.


 
I agree 100% that social welfare is too high, given the country is borrowing up on 20 billion per year.  I am a taxpayer and I see those who get handouts from the govt able to afford luxuries many workers cannot or would find it difficult to afford.


----------



## BoscoTalking

legs-akimbo said:


> there is a scheme called a CE scheme where long term unemployed can work three days a week in all manner of services that benefit the community and country as a whole for just a few euro more above the welfare payments, this is a voluntary scheme which many people happily partake of in order to keep a sense of dignity, a sense of contribution and to keep themselves busy and sane........only the government have in their wisdom imposed a two month embargo on anyone taking up this option, and may even be scrapped alltogether.


 I totally agree on this one. instead of ensuring those who want to work but cannot find employment, complete projects which enhance the local areas we want them to sit at home and look at the place decay around them or move to towns and cities so that rural areas become ghost towns...


----------



## Lak

I for one would feel absolutely no embarrassement to go into town and pick up rubbish from the street ( I do anyway) or better still offer my tade skills to projects that would be of benefit to the community. Our local school has a derelict small building that could be renovated and put to good use by availing of the many tradesmen who are currently out of work and who I am sure would be delighted to offer their services either for nothing or for just a few euros extra pin money. There are well documented overseas projects that many tadesmen have willingly given time to partake in, perhaps it is time to look a little closer to home and procur the services of the unemployed for the benefit of Ireland instead of paying them to sit on their a###s at home. In light of the fact that most self employed tradesmen do not receive a single penny in state handouts I am sure many would be oly too happy to be paid even a pittance.


----------



## rabbit

legs-akimbo said:


> In light of the fact that most self employed tradesmen do not receive a single penny in state handouts I am sure many would be oly too happy to be paid even a pittance.


 
maybe...but why would they be happy to work for a pittance when others who do state work get paid a fortune , often for less skilled work ?


----------



## Purple

nesbitt said:


> I agree that there was mass exodus from our shores in past decades.  The exodus was a reluctant reality, working long and hard hours to survive not a planned exercise to be a SW tourist.  The UK authorities got great value out of our citizens labour.  Not a like for like situation at all in my book.


 I'm sure the Polish feel the same way about us.


----------



## rabbit

Purple said:


> I'm sure the Polish feel the same way about us.


 
At least the pubs are not full of drunk poles.


----------



## Lak

rabbit said:


> maybe...but why would they be happy to work for a pittance when others who do state work get paid a fortune , often for less skilled work ?


 

Fair point but one thing is cast in stone, the country will never move forward if every person on this Island is pre occupied in what is fair, and that so and so is getting more than me for doing this that and the other.
The burden must be shared from the poorest to the wealthiest.
There will allways be a disproportionate obligation, how could a ministers pay cut be in anyway compared to a bus driver but the fact remains we all need to find some common ground in what is inevitable.
I await with interest the poitical class gripe about them not having to take a cut, they were brazen enough not so long ago to insist they were more than worthy of massive pay increases and only very begrudgingly desisted from doing so.


----------



## Bronte

callybags said:


> Protest about what? This seems like a perfectly good proposition to me.
> People in need of housing get housed.
> Builders who are in financial trouble get some income coming in.
> Banks who are in trouble get some income from developers and so reduce the possibilities of bad debts.
> 
> What is the alternative way open to the government to provide social housing? Build yet more units?


  It would be far more cost effective if the government purchased houses at knock down prices from developers desperate to sell.  Or they could pay them over 20 years for ownership rather than leasing them and paying for their upkeep (the opposite to normal Irish landlord tenant situation).  Just wait until this scheme is in place a few years, see property values go up and the developer sells going off into the sunset with his profits courtesy of the taxpayer and the government left with the problem of then housing people having paid out a fortune.


----------



## nesbitt

Purple said:


> I'm sure the Polish feel the same way about us.


 From what I have read here the Polish are on a gravy train from this country. If you know any Irish person who went to the UK in search of work you should realise that their experience would have been vastly different to the modern day Polish worker who gets wife gets to claim allowances including Child benefit even though she remains in Poland. Our Governement are a crowd of absolute plonkers... Your not comparing like with like......


----------



## rabbit

nesbitt said:


> From what I have read here the Polish are on a gravy train from this country. If you know any Irish perosn who went to the UK in search of work you should realise that their experience would have been vastly different to the modern day Polish worker who gets wife gets to claim allowances including Child benefit even though she remains in Poland. Our Governement are a crowd of absolute plonkers... Your not comparing like with like......


Not every Polish person sends Child benefit home to Poland...just as not every Irish person lives in a van and claims social welfare for 10 kids on both sides of the border.


----------



## redstar

Interesting thread.
I have worked 25+ years and am now to be made redundant for the second time in that period. I paid PAYE/PRSI when PAYE was at penal rates around 65%.

My income will fall from 1000+ per week to 395 (204 + 135 + 56), includes wife + 2 kids.

I social welfare too high ? In my case, no.
I do not want 'handouts'. I just want a fair return for all the PRSI that I paid over the years...

Oh, and a job.


----------



## Lak

So do I but I get exactly (204+135+56) less than you will.


----------



## nesbitt

rabbit said:


> Not every Polish person sends Child benefit home to Poland...just as not every Irish person lives in a van and claims social welfare for 10 kids on both sides of the border.


  I would like to see the stats on the Polish people who have not availed of this great offer..    So you have seen me in the Van with the ten kids then!


----------



## redstar

legs-akimbo said:


> So do I but I get exactly (204+135+56) less than you will.


Fair point. Tax compliant self-employed people are treated like rubbish when it comes to Social Welfare - unlike certain others (not everyone, of course) claiming welfare who have no intention of contributing to society, and who know how to milk the allowances to the max by being 'economical with the truth'.

At least you have a valuable practical trade which could generate some,though irregular, income for yourself. Unlike me, who has to go and 'get a job'.


----------



## Purple

nesbitt said:


> From what I have read here the Polish are on a gravy train from this country. If you know any Irish person who went to the UK in search of work you should realise that their experience would have been vastly different to the modern day Polish worker who gets wife gets to claim allowances including Child benefit even though she remains in Poland. Our Governement are a crowd of absolute plonkers... Your not comparing like with like......



Stop reading the daily mail and look at the dependency ratio within the  emigrant population. 
The other thing you should consider is that there is a major skills shortage (still) in this country which is filled by skilled an motivated non-national workers.
My father and most of his family emigrated to England in the 60’s because they didn’t have the money to buy food so I know all about how hard most of the Irish worked there. I also know that most of the homeless in London were born in Ireland and there are still plenty of council  estates in England housing Irish emigrants. This “we were great and they’re all freeloaders” BS is groundless.


----------



## rabbit

redstar said:


> Fair point. Tax compliant self-employed people are treated like rubbish when it comes to Social Welfare - unlike certain others (not everyone, of course) claiming welfare who have no intention of contributing to society, and who know how to milk the allowances to the max by being 'economical with the truth'.
> 
> At least you have a valuable practical trade which could generate some,though irregular, income for yourself. Unlike me, who has to go and 'get a job'.


 
Its easier said than done in todays Ireland for many self-employed people to " generate some,though irregular, income " in order to pay mortgage / support kids etc. I know many self employed people now  digging in to savings / extra borrowings in order to survive.


----------



## Lak

rabbit said:


> Its easier said than done in todays Ireland for many self-employed people to " generate some,though irregular, income " in order to pay mortgage / support kids etc. I know many self employed people now digging in to savings / extra borrowings in order to survive.


 
Red star I was in no way being pedantic about you're situation and you have my sympathies as do all who have lost their jobs. I am fortunate yes that I have the opportunity to gain sporadic work if it comes my way but as Rabbit says savings do not last long when you have a weekly income at present of zero.
However (rabit) believing that non nationals do not avail of what is their constitutional rights to claim benefits of which they are currently entitled is way off the mark, lets face it who in their right mind wouldnt.
I can assure you non nationals are most certainly riding the pigs back in welfare handouts as are Irish nationals to a great extent.
A conversation I had at the weekend with a roofing contractor made me aware of the fact that in Poland the monthly unemployment benefit amounts to €160 across the board with no other supplements including housing benefit, with the average rental of an apartment being €20 more. I of course can not verify this and am more than open to being contradicted but am merely quoteing what a friends Polish workers told him.


----------



## rabbit

legs-akimbo said:


> However (rabit) believing that non nationals do not avail of what is their constitutional rights to claim benefits of which they are currently entitled is way off the mark, lets face it who in their right mind wouldnt.


 
Actually what I wrote was " Not every Polish person sends Child benefit home to Poland..."   I stand by that, as not every Polish person here has children in Poland.    I am generous enough / fair enough to assume that there are many honest Polish people, who do not scam the system and send money to Poland for non-existant children.


----------



## Ron Burgundy

rabbit said:


> Actually what I wrote was " Not every Polish person sends Child benefit home to Poland..." I stand by that, as not every Polish person here has children in Poland. I am generous enough / fair enough to assume that there are many honest Polish people, *who do not scam the system* and send money to Poland for non-existant children.


 
unlike every public servant


----------



## rabbit

Now now, I do not tar the entire Polish immigrant community with the same brush.  You should not suggest every public servant "scams the system".


----------



## Ron Burgundy

rabbit said:


> Now now, I do not tar the entire Polish immigrant community with the same brush. You should not suggest every public servant "scams the system".


 
neither should you, not on THIS thread of course

ANyway my public counter is finished so i'll go home now and work out when i'll take my flexi day


----------



## Complainer

legs-akimbo said:


> As a self employed individual having paid my taxes year on year and an S stamp it transpires I am entitled to precisely nothing in welfare payments so we live off one wage as do thousands of formely S/E workers.


Sorry to hear that the work has dried up. Can you just clarify if you are entitled to precisely nothing, or precisely nothing that is not means tested? I understood that anyone would receive Jobseekers Allowance if the met the means test, regardless of the employment history. Is this not the case for formerly self-employed people?

I don't recall too many complaints about self-employed status in the boom times when it was seen as a route to (legally) avoid tax.



legs-akimbo said:


> As for working for your Dole, there is a scheme called a CE scheme where long term unemployed can work three days a week in all manner of services that benefit the community and country as a whole for just a few euro more above the welfare payments, this is a voluntary scheme which many people happily partake of in order to keep a sense of dignity, a sense of contribution and to keep themselves busy and sane........only the government have in their wisdom imposed a two month embargo on anyone taking up this option, and may even be scrapped alltogether.


If there is work to be done, the workers should get a fair days pay, not a few pennies above the dole. 


legs-akimbo said:


> Last point : I worked in a gang alongside another guy, he is single and rents a four bed new house paid for by the state alongside his €204 euro, medical card etc etc and has no intention of taking a full time job again other than the odd day cash here and there.


There is no Govt scheme that pays for a 4-bed house for a single man.


----------



## nesbitt

Purple said:


> Stop reading the daily mail and look at the dependency ratio within the emigrant population.
> The other thing you should consider is that there is a major skills shortage (still) in this country which is filled by skilled an motivated non-national workers.
> My father and most of his family emigrated to England in the 60’s because they didn’t have the money to buy food so I know all about how hard most of the Irish worked there. I also know that most of the homeless in London were born in Ireland and there are still plenty of council estates in England housing Irish emigrants. This “we were great and they’re all freeloaders” BS is groundless.


 Purple I have never read the 'Daily Mail' in my life.  The OP asks if dole at 204euro is too much and that the Government cannot afford it.  Obviously they cannot afford it so I think its about time they cut corners where they should be cut.  Still not buying the Irish emmigrant v Polish emmigrant comparison.  In fact when I mentioned SW tourists I was also thinking of all the non EU SW recipiants also.  As I said my point is obviously a 'hot potato' issue.  I must say that I have always been far too liberal in views in times past but must admit when I see members of my own family (sibling) suffering and getting the absolute run around by SW when they have fallen on hard times.  I find the whole SW scenario totally galling.


----------



## rabbit

Complainer said:


> Sorry to hear that the work has dried up. Can you just clarify if you are entitled to precisely nothing, or precisely nothing that is not means tested?


Plenty of self employed people now find that they are entitled to no social welfare, because the work has dried up after working hard, paying tax  and acting in a financially rresponsible manner for years or decades





Complainer said:


> I don't recall too many complaints about self-employed status in the boom times when it was seen as a route to (legally) avoid tax.


 The vast majority of self employed / business people did not see it as a route to (legally) avoid tax...in fact this sector paid and pays the tax that supports others.


----------



## Lak

Complainer said:


> Sorry to hear that the work has dried up. Can you just clarify if you are entitled to precisely nothing, or precisely nothing that is not means tested? I understood that anyone would receive Jobseekers Allowance if the met the means test, regardless of the employment history. Is this not the case for formerly self-employed people?
> 
> I don't recall too many complaints about self-employed status in the boom times when it was seen as a route to (legally) avoid tax.
> 
> 
> If there is work to be done, the workers should get a fair days pay, not a few pennies above the dole.
> 
> *There is no Govt scheme that pays for a 4-bed house for a single man.*
> 
> Well I can assure you 100% that there is and I am pretty comfortable with being able to count to four.....just !
> 
> I should have clarified, I am entitled to no benefits because I am means tested, as we are a two income family, in fact the family income was well short of any entitlement and I can assure you my wife is not on anything like a huge wage. The thing that sticks in my craw is the fact that a S/E worker is assessed on their previous years income, that has long been spent on mortgages, grocerys, school fees general living expenses etc etc, it wasnt last year that theese people needed assistance so why are they not assessed on their present status instead of that twelve months previously
> As for avoiding tax, any self respecting tradesmen who is registered for vat has a C2 and all manner of traceable incomings and outgoings would find it nie on impossible to avoid paying his fair share to the exchequor, other than the odd weekender, the majority have more than paid their dues and for those who have not then we can hold the general public guilty by association for being equally culpable in avoiding taxes due....I have lost count of the jobs lost over the years because I didnt want to put thousands into my back pocket then be answerable to an audit for long periods supposedly out of work.


----------



## Complainer

rabbit said:


> Plenty of self employed people now find that they are entitled to no social welfare, because the work has dried up after working hard, paying tax  and acting in a financially rresponsible manner for years or decades


Get with the programme, will ya. This is factually untrue.


rabbit said:


> The vast majority of self employed / business people did not see it as a route to (legally) avoid tax...in fact this sector paid and pays the tax that supports others.


Lots of sectors paid taxes (including the public sector). The real question is did they pay enough tax, or did they pay their fair share of tax. I think we all know the answers...



legs-akimbo said:


> Well I can assure you 100% that there is and I am pretty comfortable with being able to count to four.....just !


So what scheme is it then?


legs-akimbo said:


> I should have clarified, I am entitled to no benefits because I am means tested, as we are a two income family, in fact the family income was well short of any entitlement and I can assure you my wife is not on anything like a huge wage. The thing that sticks in my craw is the fact that a S/E worker is assessed on their previous years income, that has long been spent on mortgages, grocerys, school fees general living expenses etc etc, it wasnt last year that theese people needed assistance so why are they not assessed on their present status instead of that twelve months previously


I can see your point on the timing problem, though I can also see the other side of the coin. Given that a self-employed person's income can vary greatly from week to week, what basis can DSFA use to assess income, other than last years?


legs-akimbo said:


> As for avoiding tax, any self respecting tradesmen who is registered for vat has a C2 and all manner of traceable incomings and outgoings would find it nie on impossible to avoid paying his fair share to the exchequor, other than the odd weekender, the majority have more than paid their dues and for those who have not then we can hold the general public guilty by association for being equally culpable in avoiding taxes due....I have lost count of the jobs lost over the years because I didnt want to put thousands into my back pocket then be answerable to an audit for long periods supposedly out of work.


Being C2 registered does not mean that they paid their fair share. It means they paid their fair share of the 'on the table' job, or the 'on the table' element of the jobs, and they pocketed the 'under the table' part of the deal. You are right in pointing out that many householders were complicit in the tax evasion in looking for a 'price for cash' for the 'odd weekender', but that doesn't absolve the building industry for responsibility for this kind of evasion.


----------



## Purple

Complainer said:


> but that doesn't absolve the building industry for responsibility for this kind of evasion.


or the lawyers who gave cash discounts, or the GP's who stuffed cash in their pockets or the teachers how did grinds for cash etc


----------



## Lak

I believe its termed "human nature"

As for the 4 bed house scheme there clearly is not  a specific "Scheme" All I am saying here is I know a guy very well who has a newish 4 bed house paid for, bar perhaps a tenner by the social welfare. You may find this puzzling but it is non the less true, why on earth would I make it up.?


----------



## Purple

legs-akimbo said:


> I believe its termed "human nature"



No, it's called "stealing" or "tax evasion".


----------



## Lak

Yes as I said Human nature.


----------



## Complainer

legs-akimbo said:


> I believe its termed "human nature"
> 
> As for the 4 bed house scheme there clearly is not  a specific "Scheme" All I am saying here is I know a guy very well who has a newish 4 bed house paid for, bar perhaps a tenner by the social welfare. You may find this puzzling but it is non the less true, why on earth would I make it up.?


Did you ever think that (given that there is no scheme that provides this level of benefit), somebody might be pulling your leg (akimbo) or exaggerating to wind you up?


----------



## Lak

Complaier How clear can I make it. I have known the guy for over twenty years, have worked with him periodically for most of that time, I have a drink with him at the weekend and I was having a cuppa in the four bedroomed house he lives in a couple of miles from me this week, as I have hundreds of times. I have absolutely no need to lie or exaggerate, it was a simple part of a post made earlier, and am surprised that you are not aware that this is not an isolated scenario.
Nor am I passing judgement on him, for a couple of years he rented this particular property and paid his own way, for the last year the rent has been paid by social welfare...simple as.
If there is a "Scheme" of evicting people from rented properties when they fall on tough times regardless of its size it is one of which I am not familiar.


----------



## Complainer

legs-akimbo said:


> Complaier How clear can I make it. I have known the guy for over twenty years, have worked with him periodically for most of that time, I have a drink with him at the weekend and I was having a cuppa in the four bedroomed house he lives in a couple of miles from me this week, as I have hundreds of times. I have absolutely no need to lie or exaggerate, it was a simple part of a post made earlier, and am surprised that you are not aware that this is not an isolated scenario.
> Nor am I passing judgement on him, for a couple of years he rented this particular property and paid his own way, for the last year the rent has been paid by social welfare...simple as.
> If there is a "Scheme" of evicting people from rented properties when they fall on tough times regardless of its size it is one of which I am not familiar.


How clear can I make it - There is no social welfare scheme that pays for a 4-bed house for a single man. Please don't twist this about evictions. The only person doing evictions will be the landlord (if the worst happens), not the state. I'm not suggesting that you are lying. But certainly someone, somewhere is not telling the full story.


----------



## Lak

I just have to sit here and laugh. Have it your way sir, but do wake up to reality, I either lie or I dont, do not spare my feelings I would not be in the least offended, you do not believe me.. fine ! 
Its a four bed house all be it a semi D town house, are we talking at cross purposes and you're under the impression I am talking about a 3000 sq ft mansion on an acre of manicured garden ? 
I have no desire to cross swords with you its just the way it is.
I am not one for falling for chinese whispers but I was told a tale yesterday about polish guys who landed at Dublin airport taking a taxi to the social, asked the driver to wait twenty minutes and drive then back to the airport to fly home after signing on. Doubtless a total fabrication but I have no doubt that a system that allows people to sign on once a month with payments going straight into their bank accounts is open to abuse in fact I know damned well it is, its plainly obvious people will take advantage... Was there not a recent case of a highly paid medical consultant whose wife merrily trotted over the border to the North to claim benefits there and in the south too in a well executed shameless scam.


----------



## rabbit

legs-akimbo said:


> Was there not a recent case of a highly paid medical consultant whose wife merrily trotted over the border to the North to claim benefits there and in the south too in a well executed shameless scam.


 
I never heard of that...I thought it was more a trick undertook by some of those from the tra.....ng community ?  ( I am afraid to say the word in case I am accused of being racist or whatever ).


----------



## Simeon

legs-akimbo said:


> Was there not a recent case of a highly paid medical consultant whose wife merrily trotted over the border to the North to claim benefits there and in the south too in a well executed shameless scam.


Legs! Do you have a link for this extraordinary bit of financial sean-nos dancing.


----------



## liaconn

Mpsox said:


> Agree entirely with your comments on this. It's unfortunate that those who are in genuine need of social welfare get tarred with the same brush because of layabouts, fraudsters and thieves who abuse the system
> 
> However I also have an issue with how social welfare can act as a disencentive to work. An example, I had an employee who came to me a month ago asking to reduce his working week from 5 days to 3 days. When I asked him why, he told me he had worked out that he would be financially better off if he did this because of the social welfare payments he would get in return. Glad to say I refused his request but that is an example of the quite frankly stupid way the system works. And before anyone asks, this guy's salary is 15% above the minimum wage


 

I have seen this in the civil service as well. Single parents, some living at home with their own parents who act as childminders, going jobsharing because they can claim enough welfare to actually end up with more disposable income.


----------



## Lak

Simeon said:


> Legs! Do you have a link for this extraordinary bit of financial sean-nos dancing.


 
Sorry no I dont, its just something that stuck in my mind after either seeing it on a news item or reading in a newspaper. I recall there being given a smack on the wrists by the courts for the perpetrator and the money to be repaid. It struck a chord as it made me think that if this type of person would take such risks who else is.


----------



## gipimann

Here's a link to leg's story.   The wife & children were claiming Social Welfare here while husband was working with the health services in NI.

[broken link removed]


----------



## Lak

Thanks gipiman, I was begining to think complainer was right and I was becoming deluded


----------



## gipimann

I remembered it as well, so you weren't alone!


----------



## Simeon

Thanks gipimann. So there is an alternative society living amongst us. I thought this was solely the domain of the of the crowd that we can't mention.


----------



## Complainer

legs-akimbo said:


> I just have to sit here and laugh. Have it your way sir, but do wake up to reality, I either lie or I dont, do not spare my feelings I would not be in the least offended, you do not believe me.. fine !
> Its a four bed house all be it a semi D town house, are we talking at cross purposes and you're under the impression I am talking about a 3000 sq ft mansion on an acre of manicured garden ?


I don't think you're lying. I believe that you genuinely believe that this is hapening. There is another possible scenario that could explain this.

The other guy is exaggerating/lying/spoofing. Maybe his mammy and daddy are paying his rent, and it is slightly less embarrassing to say that the State are paying. Maybe the HSE are supplementing his rent, and he's done a deal with the landlord to pay cash himself. In the absence of seeing the paperwork, I just don't believe that the state is paying a market rate for a 4-bed house for a single man.


----------



## Purple

Complainer said:


> If there is work to be done, the workers should get a fair days pay, not a few pennies above the dole.


 Why? If you can work and the state is paying you why should it not require you to work? If you don't want to do the work that's fine; don't claim the SW payments.


----------



## Carpenter

My working hours have been reduced- I'm now on a 3 day week and I've just started to claim Jobseeker's benefit for the other 2 days.  I've yet to receive my first payment but I certainly don't think it's overly "generous"  (think I'll get about €80 or so for the two days).  I'm glad to be able to claim my entitlement having paid PRSI for more than 15 years but I'd much rather be working 5 days than claiming any welfare.....


----------



## csirl

There are load of jobs around, the problem is that people will not do certain types of work which they think is beneath them.

There are plenty of jobs available in the following areas: convenience shop, filling station, fast foot outlet, stacking shelves in supermarket, cleaning offices, security guard etc.

These jobs starts at c.€10 per hour (some pay even more than this). Someone working full time would take home €400per week = €20k per annum.
Married couple both in this type of job would earn 40k per annum. (in most of these jobs, a couple could work different shifts thus not needing childminding.

Even if the aforementioned couple were recently unemployed and had a mortgage of 20k per annum (which equates to a mortgage in the 400k to 500k range), they would still be able to easily pay the mortgage and have enough to live off. They wouldnt have any luxuries - food from lidl, clothes from penneys, dont run a car, no holidays, no satellite TV etc., but they would survive. Not pleasant, but certainly doable for a year or two until things pick up.

The problem is the following:

1. Most people have mortgage protection policies which pay the mortgage if they become unemployed. The aforementioned couple are better off having the insurance company pay the mortgage and claiming SW plus all the fringe benefits. No incentive to work a low paid job to get by.

or

2. If the aforemention couple are one of our permanent unemployed, particularly if they have little in the way of work experience/qualifications, there is zero incentive for them to work. If they get rent allowance/council housing, they are better off claiming SW than taking on a low paid job.

So its clear that there is a problem. We have loads of jobs available, but because most (but not all) SW recipients fall into one of the above 2 categories, they will not take any of these jobs. 

This system needs to change.


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## Sunny

csirl said:


> There are load of jobs around, the problem is that people will not do certain types of work which they think is beneath them.
> 
> There are plenty of jobs available in the following areas: convenience shop, filling station, fast foot outlet, stacking shelves in supermarket, cleaning offices, security guard etc.
> 
> .


 
Out of curiosity, can you give me more details of all these jobs. I have a couple of friends who would be more than delighted to have a look. Where are these plentiful jobs being advertised?


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## MandaC

Sunny said:


> Out of curiosity, can you give me more details of all these jobs. I have a couple of friends who would be more than delighted to have a look. Where are these plentiful jobs being advertised?



My friend has been looking for work since June and is even prepared to work for €19K now.....yet she can get nothing.....she has even tried retail and there is nobody taking on....what type of jobs are you talking about.


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## csirl

I guarantee that if your friends walk into all of the following and ask to speak to a manager about jobs, they'll get something (assuming that they are relatively normal people).

Spar, Centra, Londis.
Esso, TOP, Texaco, Topaz.
McDonalds, Burger King, Supermacs, Abrakebra.
Tesco, Dunnes, Marks & Spencer, Lidl, Aldi, Superquin.
Whatever local cleaning companies operate in your area.
Whatever local security firms operate in your area.


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## csirl

http://www.mcdonalds.ie/A-great-place-to-work/Opportunities-at-McDonalds.aspx



[broken link removed]

http://www.tesco.ie/careers/vacancies.html

[broken link removed]

to start with.


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## MandaC

I did not think Superquinn are currently recruiting, M&S are not (in our area anyway)

If you look at the Tesco link, they are all for quite specialised managerial jobs.

And even some Dunnes are not taking on.


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## Bronte

csirl said:


> There are plenty of jobs available in the following areas: convenience shop, filling station, fast foot outlet, stacking shelves in supermarket, cleaning offices, security guard etc.


  I didn't think of applying for these jobs because I speak English, it's certainly the impression I got in the last 10 years that the only qualification one needed for these jobs was not be able to speak English.....


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