# Example of Rip Off Republic



## godthe (3 Sep 2008)

On Thursday 4th Sept Aldi in the republic have a 32in LCD Television for sale at 480 Euro. On the same day in NI Aldi are selling the same television for 299 sterling.
According to XE today 299 sterling equates to 367 euro. Thats 113 euro difference. 
Just thought I would let you all know


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## ClubMan (3 Sep 2008)

Moved from Phones, DVDs, TVs, Audio/Visual.


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## cork (3 Sep 2008)

Dry Cleaners not displaying price lists is one of my moans.

Other examples are shops charging surcharges for mobile phone top ups.

Grocery shopping - rip off big time.

Clothes Shopping eg. Ireland vs US.


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## ClubMan (3 Sep 2008)

cork said:


> Grocery shopping - rip off big time.


Do you not shop around and check the prices that must be displayed by law?


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## jhegarty (3 Sep 2008)

cork said:


> Grocery shopping - rip off big time.




Have you tried Aldi & Lidl ?


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## ubiquitous (3 Sep 2008)

cork said:


> Clothes Shopping eg. Ireland vs US.



Pointless comparison. Americans pay less taxes on consumption (eg VAT, sales tax) than we do but in return have to pay local and state taxes, often at crippling rates.


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## ubiquitous (3 Sep 2008)

cork said:


> Other examples are shops charging surcharges for mobile phone top ups.



Do you expect them to supply this service for free?


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## z109 (3 Sep 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> Do you expect them to supply this service for free?


They already get a cut of the top-up.


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## ubiquitous (3 Sep 2008)

yoganmahew said:


> They already get a cut of the top-up.



Indeed, but it is a very minor cut, a lot less than originally offered and paid by the phone companies when retailers were first asked to sell top-ups


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## mathepac (3 Sep 2008)

godthe said:


> ...
> According to XE today 299 sterling equates to 367 euro. Thats 113 euro difference.
> Just thought I would let you all know


Allowing for different VAT rates, there's an 85 euro difference. Still a big difference, just not not quite as much.


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## mell61 (4 Sep 2008)

I was recently in a well known bar in Dublin, and as I was driving ordered a sparkling mineral water and dash of lime... that dash of lime cost the same as the bloody water!    
I was at an 'invite only' shopping night at a well known dept store and was buying some household products, already marked half price, the invite allowed me another 20% discount (I assumed), the snotty sales assistant wouldn't scan the card, as she said I shouldn't expect another discount.    I very nicely suggested that I had assumed that as the T&Cs didn't mention anything about sales items not being covered we could have a manager come and decide!    She looked me up and down and said, 'who gives discounts on discounts?', to which I replied any store in a sale.  I got the discount, but the attitude p-ed me off!


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## Sunny (4 Sep 2008)

I was in a well known Dublin City Centre restaurant for lunch yesterday. We sat down and the waitress asked us the usual question of 'still or sparkling'. We both answered still. She came over with two glasses of water with pieces of lemon in them. There was no sign of a bottle so presumed it was just tap water which was fine so didn't give it a second thought. Had the meal (awful by the way) and asked for the bill. I looked at it and noticed that I was being charged €5 for the water. I asked the waitress if it wasn't tap water, why wasn't the water served to us in a bottle and she said they don't do that but that she wouldn't charge us for it. When she said that I got even more suspicious so asked to speak to the manager. I asked him how do I know I am getting what I paid for if they don't serve the bottle and that what they gave me wasn't just tap water. I had never seen it in any restaurant that I have been in. The snotty little git went over and brought back the bottle where he says the water came from. It was a 1ltr bottle of Tipperary water. They don't serve small bottles but still had the cheek to charge €2.50 a glass. I reckon they fill the bottle out of the tap as well! I haven't been that annoyed in a long time and he still insisted on charging me so I paid after making a scene.


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## ubiquitous (4 Sep 2008)

mell61 said:


> I was at an 'invite only' shopping night at a well known dept store and was buying some household products, already marked half price, the invite allowed me another 20% discount (I assumed), the snotty sales assistant wouldn't scan the card, as she said I shouldn't expect another discount.    I very nicely suggested that I had assumed that as the T&Cs didn't mention anything about sales items not being covered we could have a manager come and decide!    She looked me up and down and said, 'who gives discounts on discounts?', to which I replied any store in a sale.  I got the discount, but the attitude p-ed me off!



This is not just an Irish thing. Macy's in New York operate a similar policy.


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## mell61 (4 Sep 2008)

Macys honoured the discount on final sales stuff for me (ie 75-85% off), and i also got the additional 11% one on top of that, that was both in Florida and NY macys.


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## ubiquitous (4 Sep 2008)

mell61 said:


> Macys honoured the discount on final sales stuff for me (ie 75-85% off), and i also got the additional 11% one on top of that, that was both in Florida and NY macys.



They told me I couldn't get the 11% discount on an already discounted jacket. Rip Off USA, I think


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## ClubMan (4 Sep 2008)

Sunny said:


> I was in a well known Dublin City Centre restaurant for lunch yesterday. We sat down and the waitress asked us the usual question of 'still or sparkling'. We both answered still.


I would have assumed that unless you answered "tap" you would automatically get bottled.


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## Sunny (4 Sep 2008)

ClubMan said:


> I would have assumed that unless you answered "tap" you would automatically get bottled.


 
I know but I would also have assumed that if I am being served bottled water, I get the bottle brought to my table. I have never seen a restaurant do otherwise. But there was no bottle to bring to the table bacause they poured two glasses out from a 1 litre bottle of water. And yet they still charged me €2.50 per glass for it. They were small glasses as well.


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## bamboozle (4 Sep 2008)

Sunny said:


> I was in a well known Dublin City Centre restaurant for lunch yesterday. We sat down and the waitress asked us the usual question of 'still or sparkling'. We both answered still. She came over with two glasses of water with pieces of lemon in them. There was no sign of a bottle so presumed it was just tap water which was fine so didn't give it a second thought. Had the meal (awful by the way) and asked for the bill. I looked at it and noticed that I was being charged €5 for the water. I asked the waitress if it wasn't tap water, why wasn't the water served to us in a bottle and she said they don't do that but that she wouldn't charge us for it. When she said that I got even more suspicious so asked to speak to the manager. I asked him how do I know I am getting what I paid for if they don't serve the bottle and that what they gave me wasn't just tap water. I had never seen it in any restaurant that I have been in. The snotty little git went over and brought back the bottle where he says the water came from. It was a 1ltr bottle of Tipperary water. They don't serve small bottles but still had the cheek to charge €2.50 a glass. I reckon they fill the bottle out of the tap as well! I haven't been that annoyed in a long time and he still insisted on charging me so I paid after making a scene.


 

was in a well know chain of juice bars recently and despite their menu clearly stating 'fresh orange juice' the girl behind the counter poured Tropicana into a container for me and tried to charge 4.25 for the pleasure!!!!


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## ClubMan (4 Sep 2008)

Sunny said:


> I know but I would also have assumed that if I am being served bottled water, I get the bottle brought to my table. I have never seen a restaurant do otherwise. But there was no bottle to bring to the table bacause they poured two glasses out from a 1 litre bottle of water. And yet they still charged me €2.50 per glass for it. They were small glasses as well.


If you knew that you were getting still *bottled *water then why didn't you check the price list before ordering it?



bamboozle said:


> was in a well know chain of juice bars recently and despite their menu clearly stating 'fresh orange juice' the girl behind the counter poured Tropicana into a container for me and tried to charge 4.25 for the pleasure!!!!


I thought that terms like "fresh" and "pure" etc. were meaningless when it comes to labelling food products?


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## rmelly (4 Sep 2008)

ClubMan said:


> I thought that terms like "fresh" and "pure" etc. were meaningless when it comes to labelling food products?


 
Perhaps for something purchased in a supermarket/newsagents etc - but the example above was in a 'juice bar', so it should have been safe to assume that the 'fresh orange juice' had been squeezed from real oranges on site earlier that day at the very least, if not just squeezed specifically for this customer.


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## Sunny (4 Sep 2008)

ClubMan said:


> If you knew that you were getting still *bottled *water then why didn't you check the price list before ordering it?


 
You are missing the point. I asked for and was expecting bottled water and I didn't mind paying €2.50 for a bottle. I did mind paying €2.50 for a glass of water (smaller measure than usual bottle) that apparently came from a 1 litre bottle that I didn't see get opened or left on my table. If you went into a pub and asked for a bottle of coke, would you be happy if they came over over a poured you a glass from a 2 litre plastic bottle that could have been open for hours and then charged the same.


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## bamboozle (4 Sep 2008)

ClubMan said:


> If you knew that you were getting still *bottled *water then why didn't you check the price list before ordering it?
> 
> 
> I thought that terms like "fresh" and "pure" etc. were meaningless when it comes to labelling food products?


 

Clubman, i've copy & pasted from their website how they claim their products are made, not sure how you wouldnt be suprised if a juice bar is not preparing their product with fresh ingredients, also on their menu the Orange Juice is described as 'freshly squeeze OJ' hardly a meaningless description...

"Nutritious, fruity, delicious...from Mango Kiss to Berry Blast, the ********* Juice and Smoothie Bar offers over 50 of the freshest juices and the yummiest smoothies.

All are made to order using only the best quality and freshest natural ingredients. If you are low on energy or need a boost, check out our GI Friendly Range next time you're in ****"


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## ClubMan (4 Sep 2008)

bamboozle said:


> on their menu the Orange Juice is described as 'freshly squeeze OJ' hardly a meaningless description...


You simply said "fresh" above. It it was billed as "freshly squeezed" then that's a different matter.


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## redstar (8 Sep 2008)

My two young lads love "Match of the Day" and "Match" soccer weekly magazines.

Price (each)  in local Spar:   Euro 3.10
Price (each) in small family shop up the road from Spar:  Euro 2.80

Sterling cover price: 1.60

Spar overcharging yet again, even compared to supposedly expensive local family-run shops.


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## rabbit (8 Sep 2008)

godthe said:


> On Thursday 4th Sept Aldi in the republic have a 32in LCD Television for sale at 480 Euro. On the same day in NI Aldi are selling the same television for 299 sterling.
> According to XE today 299 sterling equates to 367 euro. Thats 113 euro difference.
> Just thought I would let you all know


 
We have to pay the costs of a republic.  Our taxes , high cost of living and lack of economy of scale means things are dearer.   Our taoishock gets paid more that the p.m. of a large industrial country like Germany or the UK, who have say 20 times the population.  Who pays for our president, all our foreign embassies, civil service etc ?  a relatively small no. of peiople in the wealth creating sector.


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## ubiquitous (8 Sep 2008)

As Gay Byrne used to say in the 80s "You wanted your independence. Now you have to pay for it"


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## cole (8 Sep 2008)

rabbit said:


> Who pays for our president, all our foreign embassies, civil service etc ? a relatively small no. of peiople in the wealth creating sector.


 
Taxpayers?


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## gabsdot (8 Sep 2008)

I brought the monster to the cinema recently and after he had worked his way through all the rubbish I'd brought in under my coat for him he demanded popcorn. So I went out and asked for a small bag of popcorn. It was not much bigger than a bag of manhatton popcorn priced about 65cents and they wanted €4.80 for it. 
I was so shocked at the scabbiness of the size of the bag and the price that I could not bring myself to pay for it so I gave it back and told them why.


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## C2H5OH (8 Sep 2008)

godthe said:


> . On the same day in NI Aldi are selling the same television for 299 sterling.


 
Are there actually any ALDI stores in Northern Ireland?


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## RonanC (9 Sep 2008)

Another example of a rip off republic

Kanye West concert. 

Odyssey Arena Belfast €41/€47.50
The O2 London - €44
Metro Radio Arena Newcastle €40
NEC Birmingham €40
SECC Glasgow €40
MEN Manchester €40

*RDS DUBLIN €65.70*


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## ubiquitous (9 Sep 2008)

RonanC said:


> Another example of a rip off republic
> 
> Kanye West concert.
> 
> ...


Betcha there is no VAT on concert tickets in the UK.
Betcha planning permission & other costs are a lot lower as well.


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## RMCF (9 Sep 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> Betcha there is no VAT on concert tickets in the UK.
> Betcha planning permission & other costs are a lot lower as well.


 
This was on the Last Word a few months back, and a promoter was saying about how much more expensive it is to stage a concert in RoI compared to the UK (NI).

Apparently the insurance is one of the main differences. And licences too. Artists themselves don't get any more for playing RoI than NI, and the promoter isn't making more profit in RoI than NI, despite the price differences.


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## LDFerguson (10 Sep 2008)

RonanC said:


> Another example of a rip off republic
> 
> Kanye West concert.
> 
> ...


 
But surely being asked to pay anything at all to listen to Kanye West is a rip-off?


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## eimear25 (11 Sep 2008)

RonanC said:


> Another example of a rip off republic
> 
> Kanye West concert.
> 
> ...



and most of those venues in the UK are modern arenas whereas the RDS is an awful place (IMO!)


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## Megan (11 Sep 2008)

Wedding dress in a local bridal shop today costs €1,700.00. The same dress in New York costs $975 = approx €701.00.


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## Purple (13 Sep 2008)

RMCF said:


> This was on the Last Word a few months back, and a promoter was saying about how much more expensive it is to stage a concert in RoI compared to the UK (NI).
> 
> Apparently the insurance is one of the main differences. And licences too. Artists themselves don't get any more for playing RoI than NI, and the promoter isn't making more profit in RoI than NI, despite the price differences.


I remember that on the Last Word. He said that insurance for Springsteen concerts in Manchester was £3000 for two nights whereas the RDS was €30'000 a night.


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## bamboozle (16 Sep 2008)

Purple said:


> I remember that on the Last Word. He said that insurance for Springsteen concerts in Manchester was £3000 for two nights whereas the RDS was €30'000 a night.


 

Not disputing the above figures but its crazy to think such insurance costs in Ireland are 20 times that of the UK, however even with the above example an insurance bill 28,500 more than an equivilant concert in the UK would work out at about €2.85 more per ticket to be absorbed into the ticket cost (assuming 10,000 folk would go to a concert in the RDS...there's still a big gap between €67.50 and €40


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## ubiquitous (16 Sep 2008)

Megan said:


> Wedding dress in a local bridal shop today costs €1,700.00. The same dress in New York costs $975 = approx €701.00.



Someone posted a query on AAM a few months ago where they imported a wedding dress from NY, and got caught for the VAT and duty in Ireland. They said that once they paid he VAT & duty, there was little or no saving.


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## ubiquitous (16 Sep 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> Betcha there is no VAT on concert tickets in the UK.
> Betcha planning permission & other costs are a lot lower as well.



I have checked this out and found that VAT at 17.5% applies on sales of concert tickets in the UK. So the VAT discrepancy should only account for a 3.5% difference in prices between ROI & UK.


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## rabbit (16 Sep 2008)

Other costs are higher in bussiness in Ireland too.  For example, accountancy fees.   Look at two similar businesses , one in the UK and one in Ireland, both with similar tiurnovers and working in the same types of business, and you will find the Irish business having to pay much more money just to get his books done by the accountant, just to keep the revenue happy etc.   An example of 4500 euro versus £ 2000 stg ( about € 2500 ) springs to mind.   Nearly double.


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## ubiquitous (16 Sep 2008)

rabbit said:


> two similar businesses , one in the UK and one in Ireland, both with similar turnovers and working in the same types of business



Accountancy fees vary dramatically between firms in Ireland. There are some firms in my own locality charging double the rates that others charge. Variations of €4,500 v €2,000-odd would not be uncommon.

If you post details of the business sector, level of turnover, and whether audit exemption applies, I will tell you if the UK company are getting good value for their £2,000/€2,500.


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## rabbit (16 Sep 2008)

The Irish business owner did indeed endevour / shop around to get the cheapest accountancy fees.  However, he is not willing ( yet ! )  to get his books done abroad, as he feels foreign firms may not be accessable / be knowledgeable about the Irish tax system etc.     The Irish business owner knows from chatting to others with similar businesses in Ireland that that is what accountants charge in Ireland.   Over the years , at trade shows and various other meetings, he has met a number of people with similar size shops in the UK, all of whom pay nearly half for their accountancy services.   The UK people cannot get their heads around how expensive outgoings like accountants are in Ireland.  Shure who can blame them.  Rip off Republic, just like dentists fees, car prices etc.


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## sam h (16 Sep 2008)

> Look at two similar businesses , one in the UK and one in Ireland, both with similar tiurnovers and working in the same types of business, and you will find the Irish business having to pay much more money just to get his books done by the accountant, just to keep the revenue happy etc. An example of 4500 euro versus £ 2000 stg ( about € 2500 ) springs to mind. Nearly double.


 
Are these just hypotecical "similar businesses" are do they actually exist.
Do they follow the exact same book keeping format?
Do they have the exact same number of staff?
Do they both make the exact same number of calls to their accountant during the year/

I'm not an accountant but I have worked in an a/c office and you'd be amazed how bad books can triple the work of the account, or how some will phone the accountant for everything....turnover is not the only indication of cost & even within Ireland (or even England) costs will vary hughly.

It's almost impossible to compare products/or services unless they are EXACTLY like for like & and if they aren't, you need to allow a certain about of "weighting" on some componants.

Eg - I know some people who travel up North to shop every few weeks...they talk about saving €x on the shop, but seem to ignore the cost of the petrol, wear and tear on the car, tolls, extra time involved & opportunity cost (ie-being abe to do something else that may save/earn money in the excee time involved).  So it would have to be a significant saving to warranty me making the trip, once all the costs are taken into account.


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## Megan (16 Sep 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> Someone posted a query on AAM a few months ago where they imported a wedding dress from NY, and got caught for the VAT and duty in Ireland. They said that once they paid he VAT & duty, there was little or no saving.



I don't think VAT & Duty would come to €1,000. Alot of brides on www.weddingsonline.ie state that they buy their dresses from the USA.


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## z103 (16 Sep 2008)

> Someone posted a query on AAM a few months ago where they imported a wedding dress from NY, and got caught for the VAT and duty in Ireland. They said that once they paid he VAT & duty, there was little or no saving.


So it's the government ripping us off instead of the wedding dress shop. This makes it more of a rip off because you can't shop around.
(We got a wedding dress in TX Maxx for <€100, and it was lovely)


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## ubiquitous (16 Sep 2008)

Megan said:


> I don't think VAT & Duty would come to €1,000. Alot of brides on www.weddingsonline.ie state that they buy their dresses from the USA.



maybe she was exaggerating. The AAM search facility might uncover the thread for you, if you're interested.


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## rabbit (16 Sep 2008)

sam h said:


> Do they follow the exact same book keeping format?
> Do they have the exact same number of staff?
> Do they both make the exact same number of calls to their accountant during the year


 
on average , Yes.  And yet the accountancy fees are nearly half in the UK.  If anything, the service provided in the UK is better.  Just like dentists here versus up North,  or buying cars here versus in the UK, paying more in "Rip off Ireland " does not automatically mean you are getting more for your money in Rip off Ireland.


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## ubiquitous (16 Sep 2008)

rabbit said:


> The Irish business owner did indeed endevour / shop around to get the cheapest accountancy fees.  However, he is not willing ( yet ! )  to get his books done abroad, as he feels foreign firms may not be accessable / be knowledgeable about the Irish tax system etc.     The Irish business owner knows from chatting to others with similar businesses in Ireland that that is what accountants charge in Ireland.   Over the years , at trade shows and various other meetings, he has met a number of people with similar size shops in the UK, all of whom pay nearly half for their accountancy services.   The UK people cannot get their heads around how expensive outgoings like accountants are in Ireland.  Shure who can blame them.  Rip off Republic, just like dentists fees, car prices etc.



Oddly enough the Institute of Chartered Accountants represents accountants on both sides of the border, and has a dedicated Practice Advisory department, which issues publications & runs courses on practice management issues for members. I have attended many of these courses and read pretty much all their practice management publications since I first became an ICAI trainee two decades ago. I have never heard until today that accountancy fees charged by NI firms are half of what are charged by ROI firms. 

If that is true (which I very much doubt) how come there isn't a flood of clients heading north to get their accounts and tax done more cheaply? Even from places like Cavan, Donegal and Louth?

Its not as if the firms in the North aren't expert on ROI tax. There are firms like FPM, [broken link removed], with offices in Newry & Dundalk, who provide services on both sides of the border, are highly reputable and are expert in the laws affecting both jurisdictions.


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## sam h (16 Sep 2008)

> on average , Yes.


 
Amazing how you managed to sit down with both parties, examine their books and manage to come to such a decision!!  Do you hold a financial qualification?

I'm not saying we always get the best value for money in Ireland but you need to be able to access like for like.

In fact, the accountant I worked for had several UK based clients, thats a fact....I can't say whether it was because he was cheaper, provided a better service or whatever. But he has had UK clients for years


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## ClubMan (16 Sep 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> maybe she was exaggerating. The AAM search facility might uncover the thread for you, if you're interested.


This thread?


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## ubiquitous (16 Sep 2008)

ClubMan said:


> This thread?



No, it was one where the lady said that her mother had paid for the dress(es?), and she had got the supplier to mark the package as a "gift". Needless to say, the Customs people spotted it, and charged her duty & VAT.


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## Megan (16 Sep 2008)

ClubMan said:


> This thread?



Thats the only thread I can find too. Even if I had to pay 54% on the price of €700 - the dress would cost me €1,126. A saving of €574.


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## rabbit (16 Sep 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> I have never heard until today that accountancy fees charged by NI firms are half of what are charged by ROI firms.


 Nobody - except you - mentioned any N.I. firms.  The UK firms mentioned were from "the mainland".  It is there that the examples of accountancy fees being quite a bit cheaper than in Ireland, were found.  Shure why would they not be, when accountants there do not have to pay a fortune on cars, on dentists etc.   Maybe half the accountants there also do not have section 23 investments, holiday homes etc dotted all around the place.lol


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## ubiquitous (16 Sep 2008)

The link seems to be the last one here



"Customs and VAT due on a GIFT from the USA??? - Askaboutmoney.com"

Unfortunately it generates the following message: "Invalid Thread specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator"


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## ubiquitous (16 Sep 2008)

rabbit said:


> Nobody - except you - mentioned any N.I. firms.  The UK firms mentioned were from "the mainland".  It is there that the examples of accountancy fees being quite a bit cheaper than in Ireland, were found.  Shure why would they not be, when accountants there do not have to pay a fortune on cars, on dentists etc.



Your first mention of "the mainland" was in your last post. Onve again we are supposed to be psychic. You seem to be saying now that firms in NI charge double of what firms in GB charge. As you might say yourself, lol



> Maybe half the accountants there also do not have section 23 investments, holiday homes etc dotted all around the place.lol


What about the other half that don't (including poor little me  )


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## rabbit (16 Sep 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> Your first mention of "the mainland" was in your last post. Onve again we are supposed to be psychic. You seem to be saying now that firms in NI charge double of what firms in GB charge.


 
I do not know much about accountancy firms in N. Ireland or what they charge.  No doubt they are generally much more familiar with the UK tax regime than the Rep. of Ireland one.   I cannot speak for N. I.  accountancy firms and I doubt you can either.

To avoid confusing you, I should have said "mainland UK"  or " Britain" instead of UK.   Below I show the changed post.
"Over the years , at trade shows and various other meetings, he ( the business owner in Rep. of Ireland ) has met a number of people with similar size shops in mainland UK, all of whom pay nearly half for their accountancy services. The Brits cannot get their heads around how expensive outgoings like accountants are in Ireland. Shure who can blame them. Rip off Republic, just like dentists fees, car prices etc. "


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## ubiquitous (16 Sep 2008)

rabbit said:


> I do not know much about accountancy firms in N. Ireland or what they charge.



To be honest, I don't think you know a whole lot about accountancy firms in "mainland" UK (and indeed ROI) and what they charge either...apart from "Duirt bean liom go nduirt bean lei" yarns that tend to change a bit every time you are challenged on the detail.


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## bamboozle (16 Sep 2008)

Pretty broad sweeping comments, there are plenty of areas that Accountants operate in with different fee levels, I presume above the poster is referring to Audit Fees, however there are lots of other areas of accountancy that are similarly priced or cheaper to UK firms, eg Fund Administration & consultancy.  Also depending on how valuable a client you are is a big factor in how large a fee a firm will charge, a small client using very few additional services to Auditing will face high fees, whereas a large client which uses a firm for its Audit plus additional services such as Corporate Finance & Taxation advice can be sure they’ll receive very competitive quotes.  And the largest blue Chip Clients can pretty much dictate their fees.

Bottom line in the accountancy game is if u want to use the big 4 you’ll pay accordingly, use smaller firms and the fee will (generally) be smaller!


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## Protocol (16 Sep 2008)

Here is a savage example of prices in the RoI versus prices in NI. I couldn't believe it.


I am buying glass mosaic tiles.  They are made by a UK company, Original Style, see this link:

[broken link removed]

The price in Tuam for a sheet = *30 euro*.

The price in Fermanagh for the same sheet = *under 8 euro*.

The exact same product.  Unreal.


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## rabbit (17 Sep 2008)

bamboozle said:


> Bottom line in the accountancy *game* is if u want to use the big 4 you’ll pay accordingly, use smaller firms and the fee will (generally) be smaller!


 
That is clouding the issue as its true abroad as well.    ( An accountancy firm in the financial district of London is going to charge more than a local small practise in a market town in rural Britain.)   However, to the average small businessman / self employed person in this country who has to get his books done ( to satisfy revenue etc ) its certainly not a *"game"* , paying high fees.  It may be a "game" to the accountancy firms but just like we pay more for dental fees, cars etc in this country it is as clear as night is day other services such as accountancy are out of line with some overseas prices too.


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## rabbit (17 Sep 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> To be honest, I don't think you know a whole lot about accountancy firms in "mainland" UK (and indeed ROI)


I am not an expert on accountancy nor do I claim to be, even though I have seen enough accountancy invoices to support a village in Africa ! What I do know , from chatting to friends, family  and business contacts here and in Britain is how accountancy fees - comparing like with like - seem to be so much less in Britain.  It is not surprising some members of the accountancy trade here pop up to argue their case, just as dentists here sometimes pop up to defend their charges, barristers defend their charges, even the shops selling UK magazines defend their prices.


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## mf1 (17 Sep 2008)

"It is not surprising some members of the accountancy trade here pop up to argue their case,....."

Hardly surprising - the alternative is to observe ranters bang on unchecked!

mf


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## Pique318 (17 Sep 2008)

mf1 said:


> "It is not surprising some members of the accountancy trade here pop up to argue their case,....."
> 
> Hardly surprising - the alternative is to observe ranters bang on unchecked!
> 
> mf



Isn't that what LOS is all about ?


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## ubiquitous (17 Sep 2008)

rabbit said:


> What I do know , from chatting to friends, family  and business contacts here and in Britain is how accountancy fees - comparing like with like - seem to be so much less in Britain.



The "Duirt bean liom go nduirt bean lei" yarn changes again 

You still haven't provided any concrete example, or indeed an explanation for your implicit claim that accountancy fees in GB are higher than in NI.


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## rabbit (17 Sep 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> You still haven't provided any concrete example, or indeed an explanation for your implicit claim that accountancy fees in GB are higher than in NI.


 
Never mind N. Ireland.  What was referred to was the difference between fees in Rip off Ireland" compared with Britain.    I already wrote "I do not know much about accountancy firms in N. Ireland or what they charge. No doubt they are generally much more familiar with the UK tax regime than the Rep. of Ireland one. I cannot speak for N. I. accountancy firms and I doubt you can either."  If you want to talk about N. Ireland accountancy fees , or the Shetland islands, or isle of Man, open a seperate thread on that.   I do know a good few business people in N. Ireland, and they are well aware of the high cost of living / professional fees in "Rip off Ireland " but I am not aware of their accountancy expenses or have never compared their accountancy expenses with the fees chareged to similar businesses here etc, so cannot comment on them.    You would have a hard enough job ubiquitous trying to defend the high fees charged by the people in your profession in "rip off Ireland" - I do not think you should both about any discrepancies between N.I. and mainland UK - that is a seperate discussion.


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## ubiquitous (17 Sep 2008)

But it simply is not credible that accountancy fees in NI are higher than in GB.

And I have pointed out clearly the basis for my view that accountancy fees in ROI do not differ from accountancy fees in NI - which you have not challenged, except by successive variations on your "Duirt bean liom go nduirt bean lei" yarn.


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## mf1 (17 Sep 2008)

Pique318 said:


> Isn't that what LOS is all about ?



Ah no - ranters can rant but they should not be allowed to go unchecked. Otherwise they will begin to believe they are right. And we can't have that !

mf


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## Purple (17 Sep 2008)

In my experience (outside London) the UK is considerable cheaper than Ireland. That doesn’t mean that accountants in Britain are cheaper because Irish accountants are ripping people off or engaging in some from of cartel (which would be near impossible for such an open sector), the UK is just a lower cost economy.


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## ubiquitous (17 Sep 2008)

Purple said:


> In my experience (outside London) the UK is considerable cheaper than Ireland. That doesn’t mean that accountants in Britain are cheaper because Irish accountants are ripping people off or engaging in some from of cartel (which would be near impossible for such an open sector), the UK is just a lower cost economy.



But that doesn't seem to be evidenced in any comparison of fees in NI & ROI. And although many NI firms can expertly prepare ROI returns and some explicitly market themselves on a cross-border basis (including the firm I named above), there is no significant traffic of clients going north for accountancy or tax services, unlike for groceries, electrical goods, building materials, dentistry etc.


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## Purple (17 Sep 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> But that doesn't seem to be evidenced in any comparison of fees NI v ROI. And although many NI firms can expertly prepare ROI returns and some explicitly market themselves on a cross-border basis (including the firm I named above), there is no significant traffic of clients going north for accountancy or tax services, unlike for groceries, electrical goods, building materials etc.


 My comments are about costs in the UK in general. I cannot comment one way or the other on accountancy fees.


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## ubiquitous (17 Sep 2008)

Purple said:


> My comments are about costs in the UK in general. I cannot comment one way or the other on accountancy fees.



Fair enough. I see your point.


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## rabbit (17 Sep 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> But it simply is not credible that accountancy fees in NI are higher than in GB.


 
We are not discussing fees in N. Ireland.   What is beyond dispute ( by even some accountants themselves ) is the fact that accountancy fees are lower in most of the UK rather than "rip off Ireland". 

 As you insist on dragging N. Ireland in to the discussion, I phoned 4 different accountancy practices , just as an experiment, in N. Ireland , at random, since lunchtime.  I enquired about them doing the books of a business from Republic of Ireland.  Three said they would not be experienced to take on work from another jurisdiction / were not familiar with tax regime / deadlines etc south of the borderetc etc.  The fourth said they would consider it and come back to be.  This is hardly surprising.  The shops in N. Ireland may have lower overheads - inc accountancy fees I would imagine but I do not have statistics to prove it - than the shops in "rip off Ireland", but that does not make it easy or practical for shops here, for example, to avail of their accountancy services from another jusisdiction.   Maybe if a business in France or UK asked an accountant in Rep. of Ireland to quote for work, the Irish accountant  would quote a higher figure than they would for a local.


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## ubiquitous (17 Sep 2008)

rabbit said:


> I phoned 4 different accountancy practices , just as an experiment, in N. Ireland , at random, since lunchtime.  I enquired about them doing the books of a business from Republic of Ireland.  Three said they would not be experienced to take on work from another jurisdiction / were not familiar with tax regime / deadlines etc south of the borderetc etc.  The fourth said they would consider it and come back to be.  This is hardly surprising.



Not very convincing "research" if you don't mind me saying so, although I admire your patience. A week ago you told us you rang around 3 or 4 accountants south of the border looking (in vain) for price quotes before you admitted they "had the same receptionist". 

Anyway, if you want to try again, here are a number of firms in NI who handle ROI cases. 

Boyle & Co., Forkhill http://www.thebestof.co.uk/newry and mourne/40234/1/1/the_best_of.aspx  "Boyle & Co Accountants are both ideally positioned and expertly trained to deal with matters pertaining to taxation both North and South of the border particularly  in the Construction Industry."

FPM - linked above

Fitzpatrick and Kearney  [broken link removed]  "Fitzpatrick and Kearney Limited, Chartered Accountants have now been providing business solutions for over 50 years. Our offices in Newry and Kilkeel serve a large client base throughout Counties Down, Armagh, Louth and beyond."

Daly Park & Co. [broken link removed]

"Non Corporate Services
UK
    * Preparation of Non Statutory Accounts
    * Preparation of Online HMRC Tax Returns
    * Specialists in HMRC Tax, VAT and PAYE Enquiries
    * Income Tax, Capital Gains Tax and Inheritance Tax Advice
  ...

ROI
    * Preparation of ROI Income Tax Returns
    * Specialists in ROI Contractors Tax
    * Specialists in ROI Tax, VAT and PAYE enquiries
    * Advising on all aspects of Cross Border Taxation and Business issues
    * ROI Payroll Services"

SP McKeown & Co Chartered Certified Accountants http://www.myvillage.com/belfast/businesszone-list_accountants3.htm
"Accounts, Audits and Book-keeping Specialist in UK and ROI Tax Business Plans & Consultancy C2 Applications Outsourcing Service Tax, VAT & PAYE Tax Investigations Financial Systems"

That'll keep you busy for a while


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## rabbit (18 Sep 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> here are a number of firms in NI who handle ROI cases.


 
I am sure there are a number of accountancy practices in N. Ireland who do tap in to the lucrative accountancy business south of the border. Many accountants in N. Ireland or elsewhere in the UK however do not have the expertise or experience to confidently deal with the requirements of the tax regime of another jurisdiction, be it the Irish Republic or France for that matter.      The point is the fact that accountancy fees are lower in most of the UK rather than  Republic of Ireland.  Incidentally, the four firms had different receptionists, as you would expect. 

As someone involved in the accountancy business ubiquitous, you should simply acknowledge that accountancy fees, like dental fees, cars,  etc are more expensive in "rip off Ireland" ( in general ) than in the UK ( in general ).   You would have more credibility, than simply digging a bigger hole for yourself and trying to drag N. Ireland in to the debate.   The discussion is not about fees in N. Ireland specifically ( or even if fees charged by N. I accountants to southern customers are the same as fees N. I accountants charge to custiomers in their own jurisdiction / tax regime / currency ) .

 As another poster correctly wrote   
"In my experience (outside London) the UK is considerable cheaper than Ireland. That doesn’t mean that accountants in Britain are cheaper because Irish accountants are ripping people off or engaging in some from of cartel (which would be near impossible for such an open sector), the UK is just a lower cost economy."


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## ubiquitous (18 Sep 2008)

rabbit said:


> As someone involved in the accountancy business ubiquitous, you should simply acknowledge that accountancy fees, like dental fees, cars,  etc are more expensive in "rip off Ireland" ( in general ) than in the UK ( in general ).   You would have more credibility, than simply digging a bigger hole for yourself and trying to drag N. Ireland in to the debate.



But you still haven't produced a single shred of evidence to support your proposition. 



rabbit said:


> As another poster correctly wrote
> "In my experience (outside London) the UK is considerable cheaper than Ireland. That doesn’t mean that accountants in Britain are cheaper because Irish accountants are ripping people off or engaging in some from of cartel (which would be near impossible for such an open sector), the UK is just a lower cost economy."



But _Purple_ has clarified these comments by saying: 



Purple said:


> My comments are about costs in the UK in general. I cannot comment one way or the other on accountancy fees.


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## z103 (18 Sep 2008)

If you call NI or GB accountants to quote for Irish accounts, then surely they too will charge Irish prices? (rubbing their hands in glee)
A better experiment might be to get them to quote for NI or GB accounts.


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## Purple (18 Sep 2008)

leghorn said:


> If you call NI or GB accountants to quote for Irish accounts, then surely they too will charge Irish prices? (rubbing their hands in glee)
> A better experiment might be to get them to quote for NI or GB accounts.


Different tax system so different costs.


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## rabbit (18 Sep 2008)

leghorn said:


> If you call NI or GB accountants to quote for Irish accounts, then surely they too will charge Irish prices? (rubbing their hands in glee)
> A better experiment might be to get them to quote for NI or GB accounts.


My point exactly.   It shows how ubiquitous's attempt to go off on a tangent and start discussing N. I. fees is just a foolish attempt to derail the debate from discussing why accountants charge considerably more in Rep. of Ireland ( in general ) than in UK ( in general ).


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## rabbit (18 Sep 2008)

Purple said:


> Different tax system so different costs.


 
So this is why accountants fees are sometimes double in "rip off Ireland" ?  I suppose dentists and other professions use this argument too, and it explains for *some* of the discrepancy   ( just as higher vat rate / distribution costs etc would account for *some* of the higher cost of some imported goods here ).   As the owner of a UK firm who distributes goods in both UK and Ireland said to me recently, when we were discussing accountancy fees,  the problem is that the increased accountancy fees businesses are charged in Ireland is just another increased overhead which adds to the cost of goods here ( and / or lack of profitability for the business concerned ).


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## ubiquitous (18 Sep 2008)

rabbit said:


> So this is why accountants fees are sometimes double in "rip off Ireland" ?



Only sometimes?

Btw, you still haven't produced a single shred of evidence to support this proposition.  If you repeat any mantra long enough you will convince yourself that it is true. That won't convince the rest of us.



rabbit said:


> I suppose dentists and other professions use this argument too, and it explains for *some* of the discrepancy   ( just as higher vat rate / distribution costs etc would account for *some* of the higher cost of some imported goods here ).   As the owner of a UK firm who distributes goods in both UK and Ireland said to me recently, when we were discussing accountancy fees,  the problem is that the increased accountancy fees businesses are charged in Ireland is just another increased overhead which adds to the cost of goods here ( and / or lack of profitability for the business concerned ).



The difference is that there is a high volume of Irish residents going north for dentistry, groceries, cars, business equipment, building materials etc but no such traffic northwards for accountancy fees - despite the fact that many NI firms (such as the 5 listed above, which I found on a simple google search) have specific expertise and competence in preparing Irish accounts and tax returns, and market themselves on that basis.


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## rabbit (18 Sep 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> high volume of Irish residents going north for dentistry, groceries, cars, business equipment, building materials etc


 
"high volume indeed"....of the 3 or 4 million people in the republic, how much of their spending is "going north" for their "dentistry, groceries, cars, business equipment, building materials etc" .  You are in the accountancy trade, you should know.   What constitutes a "high volume" in your book ?  2%  ?  5 % ?   20 %   80 % ? 




ubiquitous said:


> but no such traffic northwards for accountancy fees


Obviously some do, or some N.I firms would not bother the complications ( currency / different tax jurisdiction etc ) of touting for business in "rip off Republic".  Many Northern accountants have no experience or expertise in the tax regulations etc of the Irish Republic, any more than you may have of France , for example, so it may be unrealistic to expect people to shop in different jurisdictions for their accountancy services.  Besides, as another poster correctly wrote :"If you call NI or GB accountants to quote for Irish accounts, then surely they too will charge Irish prices? (rubbing their hands in glee)
A better experiment might be to get them to quote for NI or GB accounts."


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## rabbit (18 Sep 2008)

Originally Posted by *rabbit* http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?p=708462#post708462 
_So this is why accountants fees are sometimes double in "rip off Ireland" ?_


ubiquitous said:


> Only sometimes?


Yes, only sometimes double.  Just like dental fees, or car prices, the accountancy fees we pay in the Republic of Ireland are higher than the UK in general...I think everyone who has UK contacts knows that.


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## Sunny (18 Sep 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> The difference is that there is a high volume of Irish residents going north for dentistry, groceries, cars, business equipment, building materials etc but no such traffic northwards for accountancy fees - despite the fact that many NI firms (such as the 5 listed above, which I found on a simple google search) have specific expertise and competence in preparing Irish accounts and tax returns, and market themselves on that basis.


 
Well I know one Northern Ireland firm who win major public sector contracts down here everytime they come up for tender. 

Having said that it doesn't prove that accountants down here are too expensive. The cost of doing business in Ireland in general is higher than the UK so why are people just picking on accountants. Wouldn't be my favourite people in the world (just above clampers ) but some of the criticism is a bit OTT.


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## ubiquitous (18 Sep 2008)

rabbit said:


> "high volume indeed"....of the 3 or 4 million people in the republic, how much of their spending is "going north" for their "dentistry, groceries, cars, business equipment, building materials etc" .  You are in the accountancy trade, you should know.   What constitutes a "high volume" in your book ?  2%  ?  5 % ?   20 %   80 % ?


Don't take my word for it. Just ask Dan McLaughlin...

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0711/economy.html "'IKEA effect' hurting Republic's economy"



> Everything that could go wrong for the Irish economy has gone wrong, according to Bank of Ireland chief economist Dan McLaughlin, whose quarterly Economic Outlook is out today.
> ...
> 
> Dr McLaughlin says the credit crunch, high oil prices, the fall in the Irish stock market, slow economic activity, higher interest rates and weakness in the dollar and sterling have all taken their toll.
> ...





rabbit said:


> Many Northern accountants have no experience or expertise in the tax regulations etc of the Irish Republic, any more than you may have of France


Again I would like to know what basis you have for this statement. ICAI members in NI for example are subject to the same regulation and receive the same training as their counterparts in the South.



rabbit said:


> Besides, as another poster correctly wrote :"If you call NI or GB accountants to quote for Irish accounts, then surely they too will charge Irish prices? (rubbing their hands in glee)
> A better experiment might be to get them to quote for NI or GB accounts."



Well then, if you concede that NI or UK firms are prepared to charge excessive prices to their ROI-based clients, that undermines your argument that Irish firms are to blame for what you perceive to be the high charges here?


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## ubiquitous (18 Sep 2008)

Sunny said:


> ...but some of the criticism is a bit OTT.



You forget that the person making these criticisms has a bit of a bee in his bonnet with the accountancy profession judging from their regular AAM posts, such as here: http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=91590 and here, http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=42558 , the latter dating as far back as 01-12-2006, and  containing this statement: Sounds familiar? 



rabbit said:


> I actually was chatting to a few friends from England and America recently, and the fees they pay to dentists, accountants etc are much less than we pay in " rip off Ireland", as Eddie Hobbs calls it. Of course there are those who charge high fees in New York and London, but the average overheads in a small town in Ireland - never mind the level of expertise or experience probably - are not like in the centre of Manhatten or London.


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## rabbit (18 Sep 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> Well then, if you concede that NI or UK firms are prepared to charge excessive prices to their ROI-based clients, that undermines your argument that Irish firms are to blame for what *you perceive to be* the high charges here?


 
Not at all. In reality, most UK firms do not quote for accountancy services to clients in the Republic of Ireland. Its like most car buyers in Ireland do not get quotes from UK garages - its just not worth the hassle. Neverless, some Irish people do buy cars in the UK and import them, and cars are definitely cheaper in the UK than in "rip off Ireland". As another poster correctly wrote :"If you call NI or GB accountants to quote for Irish accounts, then surely they too will charge Irish prices? (rubbing their hands in glee)."
You obviously missed my point that many Northern accountants and UK accountants have no experience or expertise in the tax regulations etc of the Irish Republic, any more than you may have of France , for example, so it may be unrealistic to expect people to shop in different jurisdictions for their accountancy services, when it is more convenient to get their books done by somebody living in / familiar with their own jurisdiction / tax regulations / deadlines etc.
As regards what I "*perceive to be* the high charges here "...do you, as someone in the accountancy business here, really think that Irish accountancy fees are the same as UK accountancy fees ( in general ) - despite the fact costs are higher in Ireland ? lol

Incidentally, you still have not answered the question re you statement about "the high volume of Irish residents going north for dentistry, groceries, cars, business equipment, building materials etc". Of the 3 or 4 million people in the republic, how much of their spending is "going north" for their "dentistry, groceries, cars, business equipment, building materials etc" . You are in the accountancy trade, you should know. What constitutes a "high volume" in your book ? 2% ? 5 % ? 20 % 80 % ?


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## rabbit (18 Sep 2008)

Sunny said:


> Well I know one Northern Ireland firm who win major public sector contracts down here everytime they come up for tender.
> 
> Having said that it doesn't prove that accountants down here are too expensive. The cost of doing business in Ireland in general is higher than the UK so why are people just picking on accountants.


 
Nobody is "just picking on accountants".  I mentioned other areas which are more expensive in Ireland  eg dentistry, cars, magazines and some imported goods etc.   There are numerous accountants on this forum who would have you believe accountancy fees ( to businesses ) are the same in this expensive country as in other lower cost jurisdictions.


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## ubiquitous (18 Sep 2008)

rabbit said:


> There are numerous accountants on this forum who would have you believe accountancy fees ( to businesses ) are the same in this expensive country as in other lower cost jurisdictions.



Numerous? Name two of them so. (btw, If I'm one of them, remind me when I said that.)


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## Pique318 (18 Sep 2008)

Yawn !


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## Sunny (18 Sep 2008)

pique318 said:


> yawn !


 
I know how you feel. The thread has such a catchy title as well!!


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## rabbit (18 Sep 2008)

_"There are numerous accountants on this forum who would have you believe accountancy fees ( to businesses ) are the same in this expensive country as in other lower cost jurisdictions."_



ubiquitous said:


> , remind me when I said that.


 
In your post of 3183 for example you wrote " But it simply is not credible that accountancy fees in NI are higher than in GB.  And I have pointed out clearly the basis for my view that accountancy fees in ROI do not differ from accountancy fees in NI "


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## ubiquitous (18 Sep 2008)

rabbit said:


> In your post of 3183 for example you wrote " But it simply is not credible that accountancy fees in NI are higher than in GB.  And I have pointed out clearly the basis for my view that accountancy fees in ROI do not differ from accountancy fees in NI "


Indeed, which you dismissed by saying that your argument was nothing to do with NI but with the UK as a whole. In fact you said "I do not know much about accountancy firms in N. Ireland or what they charge."  At this stage, I'm starting to yawn myself


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## rabbit (18 Sep 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> Indeed


 Well you cannot have it both ways.   Make up your mind.   Either you believe "_accountancy fees ( to businesses ) are the same in this expensive country as in other lower cost jurisdictions."_ or not.   Which is it now ?   Do you think accountancy fees ( to businesses ) are the same in Rep. of Ireland ( in general ) as in UK ( in general ) , or higher, or lower ?  Can you not , as a member of the accountancy business, answer a simple question ?


Incidentally, you still have not answered the question re you statement about "the high volume of Irish residents going north for dentistry, groceries, cars, business equipment, building materials etc". Of the 3 or 4 million people in the republic, how much of their spending is "going north" for their "dentistry, groceries, cars, business equipment, building materials etc" . You are in the accountancy trade, you should know, seeing as you highlight this point.  What constitutes a "high volume" in your book ? 2% ? 5 % ? 20 % 80 % ?    Can you not , as a member of the accountancy business, be more specific ?


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## Lulu123 (19 Sep 2008)

Back on topic.

This childrens toy is £19.99 and €54.99 for the same item, so you would be saving €30 if you bought in in Belfast.   



http://www.toysrus.co.uk/Product.as...kesWheeledGoodsRideOnsPedal/708720?ref=Search

I for one will definitely be making the trip up north for Xmas presents!


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## DavyJones (19 Sep 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> Indeed, which you dismissed by saying that your argument was nothing to do with NI but with the UK as a whole. In fact you said "I do not know much about accountancy firms in N. Ireland or what they charge."  At this stage, I'm starting to yawn myself




Not wanting to stir it up. But I was a sole trader in the UK (London) and my accountant charged £190 every year. I returned to Ireland and the fee from my Irish accountant was over €500. 
I do and have always done my own VAT returns.


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## Purple (19 Sep 2008)

DavyJones said:


> Not wanting to stir it up. But I was a sole trader in the UK (London) and my accountant charged £190 every year. I returned to Ireland and the fee from my Irish accountant was over €500.
> I do and have always done my own VAT returns.


If you think that's bad; we in the West spend as much on food in one day as the poor of the developing world spend in a month. If that's not a rip-off then I don't know that is!


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## rabbit (20 Sep 2008)

DavyJones said:


> Not wanting to stir it up. But I was a sole trader in the UK (London) and my accountant charged £190 every year. I returned to Ireland and the fee from my Irish accountant was over €500.
> I do and have always done my own VAT returns.


 
That is the type of story I have heard from numerous people on both sides of the Irish sea....except not many Irish accountants charge only 500 per year for sole trader accounts.  Will all accountants willing to do yearly accounts for a sole trader ( ex vat returns ) for only 500 euro please step forward , and put your money where your mouth is ?  I know of one sole trader, who done his own vat returns, who was charged € 4500 by his  accountant in Ireland to do yearly accounts / submit vat return , even though cash book, vat purchases book, sales book, cheques journal etc was neatly summarised / added up.


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