# Problem with squatting Roma in  derelict property close to where I live.



## Sunny (7 Mar 2008)

I have a problem with a group of 20+ Roma squatting in a derelict property close to where I live. 

The property in question has been empty since the previous owner died and it is impossible to track down anyone who has repsonsibilty for the property. This property does not have even the basic facililities including plumbing and hence this group is using the garden as their toilet and their private dump.

 I contacted the council about it and they said since it was private property, there is nothing they can do and to call the guards. 

I called the guards and they said call the council.

I called immigration and heard nothing back. 

I have e-mailed my local councillors and TD's but nobody seems willing to publically deal with issue.

The council did send out a environmental office who posted a public health nuisance warning in English and in Romanian on the property but it hasn't improved. 

The guards have even admitted that some of them are the same people who were living on the M50 so it inspires confidence on the security of our borders that they find it so easy to come back again.

Does anyone have any suggestions on what I can do? 

It seems like people are afarid of this issue because the racism card gets thrown out everytime someone dares suggest doing something.


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## so-crates (7 Mar 2008)

*Re: Problem with squatting Roma*

Not that it helps at all but just to clarify, as Romania (since I am going to take a wild stab at guessing where they originate from) is part of the EU now, they have every right to *travel* unimpeded to Ireland and don't require a visa etc, I don't think that the Immigration Bureau would have a whole lot to do with it now. 
In terms of the squatters I think all you can do is to keep on the rounds pestering the council, the guards and your local representatives until someone decides to take action. It certainly sounds like a serious public health hazard. Have you tried finding out from the Land Registry who the property belongs to?


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## lightup (7 Mar 2008)

We have the exact same problem out my way except the land in owned by Iarnrod Eireann.

Iarnrod Eireann have been less than helpful in the situation and the Gardai say there is nothing they can do (and have said they are some of the group from the M50 roundabout as well!)

A planning notice went up on the site recently though so I stopped persuing the issue as the site should be developed soon.


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## rmelly (7 Mar 2008)

*Re: Problem with squatting Roma*



so-crates said:


> Not that it helps at all but just to clarify, as Romania (since I am going to take a wild stab at guessing where they originate from) is part of the EU now, they have every right to *travel* unimpeded to Ireland and don't require a visa etc, I don't think that the Immigration Bureau would have a whole lot to do with it now.
> In terms of the squatters I think all you can do is to keep on the rounds pestering the council, the guards and your local representatives until someone decides to take action. It certainly sounds like a serious public health hazard. Have you tried finding out from the Land Registry who the property belongs to?


 
not correct. If I recall correctly after the M50 fiasco, it's something like the following:

while they can come here they need to show they have permission to work, or the ability to support themselves, otherwise they can be removed after 3 months.


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## rory22 (7 Mar 2008)

I think the best way to go is to locate the legal owners. I would think if the deceased owner had no next of kin then the property would automatically fall under the control of the state. If the property has been inherited by a next of kin they are legally responsible. I know you said it is impossible to locate the owner but I fear you may be waiting a long time to have the council or local authority do something about it.


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## so-crates (7 Mar 2008)

I agree rmelly, which was why I specifically highlighted "travel" and didn't say "stay in" or "come to". Cavelling on the ninth part of a hair perhaps but I was trying to say that while they may not be able to stay forever, they can perfectly unhindered arrive.


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## Complainer (7 Mar 2008)

Sunny said:


> The guards have even admitted that some of them are the same people who were living on the M50 so it inspires confidence on the security of our borders that they find it so easy to come back again.





lightup said:


> the Gardai say there is nothing they can do (and have said they are some of the group from the M50 roundabout as well!)



Were they all at the U2 gig in the Dandelion Market too?


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## stir crazy (8 Mar 2008)

I think if they manage to stay there for 12 years  and no one  appears as owner then they will end up with legal ownership of the property. I hope you get them out  ASAP. Just keep complaining to everyone, local authority, gardai, your local councillors etc and try to track down the rightful owner or get the guards or  local authority to do so.


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## Paulone (10 Mar 2008)

Sunny said:


> This property does not have even the basic facililities including plumbing and hence this group is using the garden as their toilet and their private dump.
> 
> The council did send out a environmental office who posted a public health nuisance warning in English and in Romanian on the property but it hasn't improved.


 
Are there children living with the group? I heard that some of the children who were among the group on the M50 were taken into care because there was a fear for their welfare - probably because they were living in tents with no sanitation. Maybe social services would be interested to protect the health of any children if legitimate concerns are raised about them?

I'd be surprised if they are the M50 group, though if it is as described, then they have applied similar standards to their accommodation. How anyone could stay in tents or a derelict building after last night's weather, I don't know.

Seeing since there are legal steps which must be followed before evictions can take place, it seems hard to know what else to do other than try to find who is the current owner of the property is and take it up with them.

Surely the environmental health notice isn't a toothless threat - what happens if the notice is not complied with?


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## MrMan (10 Mar 2008)

> I think if they manage to stay there for 12 years and no one appears as owner then they will end up with legal ownership of the property.



they would have to prove that they treated it is their own property i.e keep it secured and not allow access to others.


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## Guest127 (11 Mar 2008)

same problem happend in Dundalk where a number of people squatted in the disused customs station on the newry road. Only after the local papers highlighted the issue did the revenue knock the buildings flat and the squatters move on.


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## DavyJones (11 Mar 2008)

Paulone said:


> Are there children living with the group? I heard that some of the children who were among the group on the M50 were taken into care because there was a fear for their welfare - probably because they were living in tents with no sanitation. Maybe social services would be interested to protect the health of any children if legitimate concerns are raised about them?
> 
> Are you suggesting that OP try and get their kids taken away?


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## TreeTiger (11 Mar 2008)

Paulone said:


> I heard that some of the children who were among the group on the M50 were taken into care because there was a fear for their welfare - probably because they were living in tents with no sanitation. Maybe social services would be interested to protect the health of any children if legitimate concerns are raised about them?





DavyJones said:


> Are you suggesting that OP try and get their kids taken away?



You may not have meant it this way, but to me the comment above gives me the impression you think it's ok to leave children living in accommodation without basic facilities.  Personally if I was aware of a situation close to me where I knew for a fact that kids were being brought up in unsanitary conditions I would do something about it.  Wouldn't you?  It's not the kids' fault!



Sunny said:


> This property does not have even the basic facililities including plumbing and hence this group is using the garden as their toilet and their private dump.
> ...
> The council did send out a environmental office who posted a public health nuisance warning in English and in Romanian on the property but it hasn't improved.



Imagine living next door to this (I know the OP isn't next door btw), there is no way I could sit back and watch innocent children living this way.


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## DavyJones (12 Mar 2008)

TreeTiger said:


> You may not have meant it this way, but to me the comment above gives me the impression you think it's ok to leave children living in accommodation without basic facilities. Personally if I was aware of a situation close to me where I knew for a fact that kids were being brought up in unsanitary conditions I would do something about it. Wouldn't you? It's not the kids' fault!
> 
> 
> 
> Imagine living next door to this (I know the OP isn't next door btw), there is no way I could sit back and watch innocent children living this way.


 

Funny you should say that, I'd love to know what part of this country you live. on a daily basis I see kids living in caravans on the side of dual carriageways and motorways etc. so since there is no way you could sit back and watch innocent children live like that, what have you done about it?


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## MrMan (12 Mar 2008)

> Funny you should say that, I'd love to know what part of this country you live. on a daily basis I see kids living in caravans on the side of dual carriageways and motorways etc. so since there is no way you could sit back and watch innocent children live like that, what have you done about it?



Are you saying we don't do anything about the conditions that traveller children live in so why do something about the Roma kids?


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## Green (12 Mar 2008)

Sunny said:


> I have a problem with a group of 20+ Roma squatting in a derelict property close to where I live.
> 
> *The guards have even admitted that some of them are the same people who were living on the M50* so it inspires confidence on the security of our borders that they find it so easy to come back again.
> 
> Does anyone have any suggestions on what I can do?


 
Go to the media? If you contact the papers especially in the light of above (text in bold) there should be a protest and something will be done. Remember nothing happens in this country unless there is a crisis so a quick call to the Star or Times, or maybe both, might do the trick


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## DavyJones (12 Mar 2008)

MrMan said:


> Are you saying we don't do anything about the conditions that traveller children live in so why do something about the Roma kids?


 

no, what i'm saying is that people have to come off the moral high ground. this isn't about poor kids, it's about poor kids being in your neighbour. Don't disguise welfare for children behind the fact that they want these people off their street. out off sight, out of mind!


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## TreeTiger (12 Mar 2008)

DavyJones said:


> Funny you should say that, I'd love to know what part of this country you live. on a daily basis I see kids living in caravans on the side of dual carriageways and motorways etc. so since there is no way you could sit back and watch innocent children live like that, what have you done about it?





DavyJones said:


> no, what i'm saying is that people have to come off the moral high ground. this isn't about poor kids, it's about poor kids being in your neighbour. Don't disguise welfare for children behind the fact that they want these people off their street. out off sight, out of mind!


 Your first post, directed at me, makes me think you assume I have never lifted a finger to help children living in substandard conditions.  Let me assure you that this is far from the case.  Where I live means I don’t see kids living in caravans on the side of dual carriageways and motorways on a daily basis.  Are you suggesting that I must be doing nothing and therefore need to go out looking for caravans on roadsides?  Your post came off to me as being a bit on the aggressive side.   I work with children and am extremely interested in their education and welfare.
I will certainly admit that I don’t lift the phone regarding Irish travellers living on the roadside, there are plenty of people working for their rights, there are educational facilities available, and while it will be a long time coming, hopefully the traveller culture will eventually change and Irish travellers will want to live a healthier lifestyle.
However, I think it's a different scenario for Roma children as they seem to be outside the "system" and they need someone to do something if their parents are not looking after them properly. I think it's a basic right for kids resident in Ireland to live in a home with running water and flushing toilet.



DavyJones said:


> Are you suggesting that OP try and get their kids taken away?


I would like to know what you meant by this question.

YOBR, I think your suggestion is probably a good one.  The fact that the property in question is private shouldn't mean kids stay neglected, and maybe if the situation is publicly highlighted something will happen to improve their lives.


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## DavyJones (12 Mar 2008)

TreeTiger, If I came across aggressive, my apologies, I didn't mean too. The kids issue arose when a poster suggested that social services should get involved,( as children had been taken into care during the M50 affair), and so if could be done in this case.( hence the question, you quoted) I would question the motives behind such a move. Children's welfare or neighbourhood welfare? 

And ofcourse I agree that every child, woman and man should have a toilet, running water. but the majority of people don't really care unless they are forced to see it, on their street, roadside, etc. then you'll hear about welfare problems and other reasons to have them shifted on. once shifted on, concerns for disadvantaged are soon forgotten untill they arrive back.  Don't confuse caring for welfare and getting rid of a "problem" anyway possible.


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## TreeTiger (12 Mar 2008)

DavyJones said:


> TreeTiger, If I came across aggressive, my apologies, I didn't mean too.


No worries DavyJones. 

Regarding motives, it certainly isn't nice when someone wants a group of human beings moved because the sight of them is offensive.  But whether it's children's welfare or neighbourhood welfare, surely from the child's point of view it's better to be removed from squalid living conditions no matter what the motive?  If the children are permitted to continue living like this then there is no incentive for the parents to find better accommodation.  But if they are taken into care then perhaps the parents would be more motivated to improve living conditions?

The idea of taking a child into care is very very sad, but often it can have a very positive result.  I have a friend who used to do emergency fostering and she found it very rewarding because she saw the lives of many children improve.  The Roma question is a very difficult one, they don't generally understand that their lifestyle is unsanitary and inferior to European standards, they aren't educated enough to be aware of this.

You see the same thing - even worse - in the townships in South Africa.  More than a dozen people living in the equivalent of a garden shed and they don't know to expect any better.  Then if the government gives them one of the basic breeze block houses that are being constructed there are people who will sell it and move back into a shack, bringing their kids.  It's utterly heartbreaking.

I heard that the Romanian authorities were running a campaign to let Roma people know the implications of travelling to the likes of Ireland.  Obviously it hasn't been very successful, but I don't know what media was being used, I doubt Romas living on the breadline watch much tv.


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## sparkeee (12 Mar 2008)

Unfortunately we all talk about being concerned for others,its seems when it is actually next door or directly in the neighbourhood,the concern turns to crime waves and property prices.


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## MrMan (13 Mar 2008)

My first concern would be that they are going to be a nuisance to me, and I'm sure that is the concern of most people. It may be an indictment of our society, but you really have to look after yourself nowadays.


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## MandaC (13 Mar 2008)

I totally agree with Mr. Man.  The original poster has never said he/she is concerned for the welfare of the people involved. 

People have enough to be doing keeping their own head above water without taking on other peoples causes too.  That is just the way we live. 

They dont want to have to live beside a derelict dump and quite frankly I would not either.  

There is also nothing wrong with concern over your property's value when something like that is beside you.


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## looly (13 Mar 2008)

What is the main problem? If they are using the garden as a private dump, surely they can be done for littering? Which specific are of what you described affects you and how?


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## Caveat (13 Mar 2008)

If there are any environmental health issues at all - whether it's littering, noise, pollution or whatever, I would try this route as EHOs can be surprisingly quick in responding to these matters.


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## sparkeee (14 Mar 2008)

my god,haven't we become a society of snobs,what happened to ireland and the famous welcome,did you ever notice the people who seem to care the most about political refugees and asylum seekers and the rights of the down trodden live mostly in the affluent areas of Dublin,i have yet to see an asylum hostel or halting site in foxrock or castlenock i suppose its the not on my doorstep attitude that comes with wealth.


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## kkman (14 Mar 2008)

sparkeee said:


> my god,haven't we become a society of snobs,what happened to ireland and the famous welcome,did you ever notice the people who seem to care the most about political refugees and asylum seekers and the rights of the down trodden live mostly in the affluent areas of Dublin,i have yet to see an asylum hostel or halting site in foxrock or castlenock i suppose its the not on my doorstep attitude that comes with wealth.


a friend of mine has the same problem in dublin with gypsies hanging around his business. the gypsies have absolutely no interest in an honest days work but will happily forcefully beg for money. everyone else has to work for a living to survive so why should the gypsies be treated so differently?


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## MrMan (14 Mar 2008)

> my god,haven't we become a society of snobs,what happened to ireland and the famous welcome,did you ever notice the people who seem to care the most about political refugees and asylum seekers and the rights of the down trodden live mostly in the affluent areas of Dublin,i have yet to see an asylum hostel or halting site in foxrock or castlenock i suppose its the not on my doorstep attitude that comes with wealth.



would you welcome them onto your doorstep? We live in the real world now and nobody is going to want to increase their chances of getting robbed etc, by having people loitering or illegaly living next door to them.


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## sparkeee (14 Mar 2008)

i have all sorts on my doorstep,i live in kilmainham/james street,we are surrounded by drug addicts,a halting site for gypsies,a hostel for immigrants and homeless,a methadone centre in the hospital,if i was to object to unsavoury characters i would go insane,i have adopted the attitude of live and let live,we are all gods creatures,a small amount of compassion helps the world go round.these people are not as fortunate as some of us,think about losing your house your job and hitting rock bottom,we woild look to others for help,only then would you realise the cruelty in such hard snobby attitudes.


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## kkman (14 Mar 2008)

sparkeee said:


> i have all sorts on my doorstep,i live in kilmainham/james street,we are surrounded by drug addicts,a halting site for gypsies,a hostel for immigrants and homeless,a methadone centre in the hospital,if i was to object to unsavoury characters i would go insane,i have adopted the attitude of live and let live,we are all gods creatures,a small amount of compassion helps the world go round.these people are not as fortunate as some of us,think about losing your house your job and hitting rock bottom,we woild look to others for help,only then would you realise the cruelty in such hard snobby attitudes.


i personally dont have a hard or snobby attitude at all, if someone was in need i would be one of the first there to help out. i also support charities a lot. if i was in that position of being in hard luck and less fortunate, i would be very grateful if someone offered some help, and i would work hard to try to change my situation. what bugs me is that some people think its their god given right to get hand outs from everyone, and dont make any effort to change their situation. i have experienced forceful gypsies begging and its not nice at all.


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