# While, Normally I support the Cyclist . . . .



## Leper (10 Apr 2017)

Yesterday (Sunday), I walked our dog on the "greenway" from Carrigaline to Crosshaven.  I noticed many cyclists using the parallel public road competing with cars for space.  The road is narrow and throughout my walk I noticed several cyclists waving fists at motorists. One of these incidents culminated in a motorist stopping and was screamed at by members of the Cycling Lycra Mafia. "Keep your distance" etc  Arms extended etc. Then the lady motorist pointed out civilly that the walking and cycling "greenway" was there for cyclists too (it was all of one metre distant). But, the cyclists just did not want to know . . . . and continued to use the narrow public road.

Somebody rang the Gardaí and suddenly there was a presence on the road with blue lights flashing etc and some form of peace was introduced. It was a charity cycle and one thing of note was the scarcity (almost non existence) of cycle marshals along the route.

. . . . just another day when Irish people come into their own in how to annoy everybody else. But, a local hospital got a few bob out of it.


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## Laramie (10 Apr 2017)

I live beside the N11 close to the Mount Merrion end.  There is a cycle path alongside this road. During the week practically all of the cyclists use the cycle path. For some reason when Sunday comes about, the lycra lads just will not use it.


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## Brendan Burgess (10 Apr 2017)

Hi Laramie

Have you ever cycled on the cycle path?  Have you cycled at speed on it?  Have a spin on it to see if it's suitable.  

Cycle paths are sometimes ok for commuters. Often they are not. They are rarely suitable for cycling at speed or in groups.

Brendan


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## Laramie (10 Apr 2017)

It's not a bus lane on a Sunday. Maybe it should be changed to a cycle lane on this day to facilitate those wanting to cycle at speed and in groups?


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## Leo (10 Apr 2017)

Hate cyclists much? 

If they had used the greenway, no doubt there would have been lots of complaints from families with young kids that they were going too fast and causing them inconvenience. Greenways are totally unsuitable for large group spins, they're best left for families with young kids learning to cycle in safety rather than larger groups averaging 20-30+km/h or the 'lycra lads' out to get some training in. 

Just because some off-road cycling infrastructure exists nearby does not justify someone close passing and endangering cyclists, and let's face it, the driver in the above altercation would unlikely have been looking in their rear view mirror to see the extended arms had they not been aware of having done something wrong.


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## Bronte (10 Apr 2017)

Leper said:


> Somebody rang the Gardaí and suddenly there was a presence on the road with blue lights flashing etc and some form of peace was introduced. It was a charity cycle and one thing of note was the scarcity (almost non existence) of cycle marshals along the route.



This wouldn't be allowed to happen here abroad.  What should have happened is that the cycle race be put on a road for a few hours and barred to traffic.  Do it properly or don't do it at all.  But the Gardai are too busy no doubt blowing into bags to be bothered about doing a bit of proper community policing.


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## Leo (10 Apr 2017)

Bronte said:


> What should have happened is that the cycle race be put on a road for a few hours and barred to traffic.  Do it properly or don't do it at all.



It wasn't a race, it was a charity cycle, many of these happen up and down the country and road closures would be overkill and cause more inconvenience. Many road races is Ireland actually take place on open roads with Garda oversight as they are refusing most road closure applications.


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## Bronte (10 Apr 2017)

I'm not getting why it would be overkill.  Surely closing the road off for half an hour is preferable to endangering and upsetting everybody?


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## odyssey06 (10 Apr 2017)

Also, more a question for the organizers, was the route they chose suitable in the absence of road closures. 
If it was narrow based on the OP's comments, this is not suitable for any kind of group event to safely use it without closure.


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## trasneoir (10 Apr 2017)

Bronte said:


> I'm not getting why it would be overkill.  Surely closing the road off for half an hour is preferable to endangering and upsetting everybody?


I think it's fair to say that the motoring world would be pretty upset if roads were closed every time a group wants to go cycling. 
We just need to share the road better.


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## thedaddyman (10 Apr 2017)

coming out of my town one Saturday about 2 weeks ago there was a sponsored cycle, Gardaí and stewards in place yet how someone wasn't killed was beyond me. Main reason was the behavior of some of the lyrca brigade who seemed to think they owned the road. They were weaving in and out of the hard shoulder without even looking or signaling to see what was behind them. Most of the cyclists were fine but there seemed to be a handful who thought that common sense and the rules of the road did not belong to them.


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## Bronte (10 Apr 2017)

odyssey06 said:


> Also, more a question for the organizers, was the route they chose suitable in the absence of road closures.
> If it was narrow based on the OP's comments, this is not suitable for any kind of group event to safely use it without closure.




That's a very good point.  Sounds from the OP that the road picked was unsuitable.


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## Páid (10 Apr 2017)

thedaddyman said:


> Main reason was the behavior of some of the lyrca brigade who seemed to think they owned the road.


...and motorists don't think they own the road.



Bronte said:


> That's a very good point. Sounds from the OP that the road picked was unsuitable.


How can it be unsuitable? It's a road and they are entitled to use it. The problem is that motorists are impeded by them (and other slow moving traffic) and some motorists prioritise their impatience over cyclists safety.


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## Leo (10 Apr 2017)

Bronte said:


> I'm not getting why it would be overkill.  Surely closing the road off for half an hour is preferable to endangering and upsetting everybody?



Many of these cycles cover more than 100km, and can take hours to pass, particularly later in the route. The likes of the Wicklow 200 run over looped courses with a single start finish location, I doubt those living in the area would like 13+ hours of road closures. Gardai also don't have the numbers to enforce road closures for this scale of event.


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## dereko1969 (10 Apr 2017)

Leper said:


> Yesterday (Sunday), I walked our dog on the "greenway" from Carrigaline to Crosshaven.  I noticed many cyclists using the parallel public road *competing with cars for space*.  *The road is narrow* and throughout my walk I noticed several cyclists waving fists at motorists. One of these incidents culminated in a motorist stopping and was screamed at by members of the Cycling Lycra Mafia. "Keep your distance" etc  Arms extended etc. Then the lady motorist pointed out civilly that the walking and cycling "greenway" was there for cyclists too (it was all of one metre distant). But, the cyclists just did not want to know . . . . and continued to use the narrow *public* road.
> 
> Somebody rang the Gardaí and suddenly there was a presence on the road with blue lights flashing etc and some form of peace was introduced. It was a charity cycle and one thing of note was the scarcity (almost non existence) of cycle marshals along the route.
> 
> . . . . just another day when Irish people come into their own in how to annoy everybody else. But, a local hospital got a few bob out of it.



Cyclists were fully entitled to use the road, as you yourself point out, it is a public road.
Why were car drivers overtaking if the road is narrow? Perhaps a sense of entitlement? Perhaps, due to not caring about the safety of the people cycling, as they're just cyclists?
I had a pick-up truck zoom up to overtake me as I was coming to a red light, he then zipped across me to take the left turn just before the lights - really dangerous and ignorant behaviour.
As others have pointed out the Greenway isn't suitable for a race or a spin as the slower users there and the walkers would be up in arms (and rightly so) if a group were zooming past them.

I'm struggling to see from your post someone who is normally supportive of cyclists.


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## noproblem (10 Apr 2017)

There may be places that some people believe are unsuitable for cyclists to cycle on. These people are quite entitled to have that opinion, but if the law allows cyclists to use a particular route then that's it, they use it and are fully entitled to do so. People in cars need to get a grip of themselves at times, take deep breaths, exhale slowly and lose the attitude, helps them with getting rid of the bloated belly too. The only cyclists I take a dislike to are the ones who break the traffic lights. Now, wouldn't it be nice if there was a device that could catch them doing this, also the jay walkers. Where is it that drivers are going to that makes them get so hot and sweaty when they're slowed down for a few seconds?


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## seamless (10 Apr 2017)

And those self same drivers should be taking notice of the increasing use of forward and rear facing helmet and handlebar mounted cameras.

It is now increasingly likely that bad and aggressive driving towards cyclists is being recorded.


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## Firefly (10 Apr 2017)

Páid said:


> It's a road and they are entitled to use it.



I agree but that doesn't mean it's "suitable" unless you're into extreme sports


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## Páid (10 Apr 2017)

Firefly said:


> I agree but that doesn't mean it's "suitable" unless you're into extreme sports


You might also argue that the road is not suitable for cars, pedestrians, agricultural machinery or animals. "Suitable" in this case is subjective and depends on the perspective of the road user / bystander.


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## Firefly (10 Apr 2017)

Páid said:


> You might also argue that the road is not suitable for cars, pedestrians, agricultural machinery or animals. "Suitable" in this case is subjective and depends on the perspective of the road user / bystander.



I agree with that too. However in a car you have a lot more protection. On a bike you're kinda exposed, so for me I would cycle somewhere else. Not saying it's right or anything, just practical.


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## odyssey06 (10 Apr 2017)

Páid said:


> ...and motorists don't think they own the road.
> How can it be unsuitable? It's a road and they are entitled to use it. The problem is that motorists are impeded by them (and other slow moving traffic) and some motorists prioritise their impatience over cyclists safety.



As a motorist I don't think I own the road, but it seems like the 'charity' group here acted like they did. Perhaps they felt because their cause was just any actions in its cause were just 

A narrow country road is not suitable for a road race by cyclists, or a large group of charity cyclists.
They're entitled to use it properly, showing due consideration to other users.
We're not talking about one or two cyclists getting from A to B.
We're talking about a large group following a deliberate route chosen in advance.
It's not suitable for someone to race their car either, or for a large group of joggers to have a race, or a large group of people in charge of horses to have an informal hunt, or for a parade of tractors, for that matter.

We've all read the comments on this thread about racing cyclists prioritising their chances of winning over their own safety and that of others, I don't think there's any reason to doubt this. You shouldn't be cycling like that if it's an open road.

If it's a race, either the road should be closed or the route should be somewhere where the race doesn't have to take over the whole road.

If it's a large community event the road should be closed, properly marshalled and information notices posted for the rest of the local community.


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## PaddyBloggit (10 Apr 2017)

seamless said:


> And those self same drivers should be taking notice of the increasing use of forward and rear facing helmet and handlebar mounted cameras.
> 
> It is now increasingly likely that bad and aggressive driving towards cyclists is being recorded.



And the reverse is also true .. more and more drivers have windscreen mounted cameras installed ... so it can equally record a driver's and a cyclist's bad behaviour.


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## Leper (10 Apr 2017)

I was not expecting some of the reactions that appeared on this thread:-
(a) Cyclists to use narrow public road when an almost empty cycle/walk facility runs parallel to the road - Crazy!
(b) Some do not want motorists to overtake cyclists - Lunacy!.
(c) There appears a case for two cycle lanes (i) For slow cyclists (ii) For Fast cyclists - I'm sure the Irish taxpayer needs this like we need disease!
(d) Close road for such events - Great the motor tax paying motorists not allowed access to a touristy town while cyclists take hours to amble along!
(e) Have the gardaí to police routes more - A good solution, I think.
(f) Confine such events to a specific realistic time. Good too.
(g) Make it a criminal offence if the organisers cannot supply enough effective marshals. Excellent.
(h) Let's all share the road simultaneously - Great like a football squad sharing one cup cake!
(i) Common Sense?- Too much to expect, Forget it!


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## Bronte (11 Apr 2017)

Well Leper what common sense approach would you advocate?


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## thedaddyman (11 Apr 2017)

Páid said:


> ...and motorists don't think they own the road.



no, I don't think that. In the same way I don't drive on the hardshoulder if I see a cyclist on it, I expect cyclists to have the same amount of cop on and courtesy and not pull out from the hard shoulder in front of me. These cyclists (and they were a minority) were riding carelessly and dangerously without any due regard or respect from any other road user.


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## Bronte (11 Apr 2017)

thedaddyman said:


> no, I don't think that. In the same way I don't drive on the hardshoulder if I see a cyclist on it, I expect cyclists to have the same amount of cop on and courtesy and not pull out from the hard shoulder in front of me. These cyclists (and they were a minority) were riding carelessly and dangerously without any due regard or respect from any other road user.



Someone mentioned a car camera, by any chance would you have taken pictures.  Then it would be easier to visualise what actually happened.


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## Páid (11 Apr 2017)

odyssey06 said:


> As a motorist I don't think I own the road, but it seems like the 'charity' group here acted like they did. Perhaps they felt because their cause was just any actions in its cause were just


From the OP - they were *reacting* to motorists behaviour.



odyssey06 said:


> A narrow country road is not suitable for a road race by cyclists, or a large group of charity cyclists.
> They're entitled to use it properly, showing due consideration to other users.
> We're not talking about one or two cyclists getting from A to B.
> We're talking about a large group following a deliberate route chosen in advance.


Road races are different to charity or club/group cycling. Road races (e.g. An Post RÁS) have rolling road closures with support vans and motorcycles that travel ahead of the peleton stopping traffic as necessary. For most charity cycles you are told that there are no road closures and to obey the rules of the road. Most cyclists will do this but there will always be some trying to complete the course in the fastest time possible.



odyssey06 said:


> It's not suitable for someone to race their car either, or for a large group of joggers to have a race, or a large group of people in charge of horses to have an informal hunt, or for a parade of tractors, for that matter.


It's a road and can be used by any number of road users - it's not there solely for the use of motorists. It is perfectly legal to cycle in a group, two abreast. It is also perfectly legal to be in charge of animals on a road and motorists must obey the directions of those people in charge of animals. It is also perfectly legal for 50 tractors to head down the road for any reason.



odyssey06 said:


> If it's a large community event the road should be closed, properly marshalled and information notices posted for the rest of the local community.


There usually are lots of notices and in some cases rolling road closures organised.

Also FYI - since October 2012 it is not mandatory for cyclists to use a cycle lane. Read paragraph 2 of the explanatory note - http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2012/si/332/made/en/print


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## Leo (11 Apr 2017)

Leper said:


> (a) Cyclists to use narrow public road when an almost empty cycle/walk facility runs parallel to the road - Crazy!



Greenways are totally unsuitable for cyclists travelling at speed. It would be inconsiderate to other users of the greenway, especially families with small children, for them to do so. These are leisure paths, not commuter highways. It's crazy that some motorists have such a sense of entitlement that they feel other road users who cause them any inconvenience have a lesser right to the road.



Leper said:


> (b) Some do not want motorists to overtake cyclists - Lunacy!.


No, it's more to do with the fact that they don't want to die so someone can arrive at their destination a few seconds earlier. The vast majority of cyclists much prefer when cars pass them safely, having a car following close behind can be unnerving for many as you don't know what they might do. 



Leper said:


> (c) There appears a case for two cycle lanes (i) For slow cyclists (ii) For Fast cyclists


No, we have roads for fast cyclists. To suggest anything else is lunacy, and demonstrates an attitude of seeing cyclists as somehow inferior or less entitled to use the roads.



Leper said:


> (d) Close road for such events - Great the motor tax paying motorists not allowed access to a touristy town while cyclists take hours to amble along!


Again the tired old 'I pay motor tax, I own the road' argument..



Leper said:


> (e) Have the gardaí to police routes more - A good solution, I think.


The Gardai are aware of most of these events of any scale, the fact that they choose not to police more heavily suggests they don't have a serious issue. They will show up for a while around the busy start of some of the bigger events, and the only action I've ever seen them take was to go after drivers for dangerous driving.



Leper said:


> (g) Make it a criminal offence if the organisers cannot supply enough effective marshals. Excellent.


Ridiculous. Event organisers have no entitlement to enforce road traffic legislation. That is the role of the Gardai. 



Leper said:


> (h) Let's all share the road simultaneously - Great like a football squad sharing one cup cake!


So a nice quiet country road with a single car having an issue passing a group of cyclists is like what???



Leper said:


> (i) Common Sense?- Too much to expect


It would appear so...


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## thedaddyman (11 Apr 2017)

Bronte said:


> Someone mentioned a car camera, by any chance would you have taken pictures.  Then it would be easier to visualise what actually happened.



afraid not, 2 hands on the wheel, I was too busy trying to avoid them


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## thedaddyman (11 Apr 2017)

Worth noting what the actual rules of the road state

_In the company of one or more cyclists, you *must *have due regard to other

users of the road, and you must take full account of prevailing road conditions.


On occasion, it may be safe to cycle two abreast, but you *must not *cycle in a

manner likely to create an obstruction for other road users._

And also
_Cyclists *must* use any cycle track provided_

Sections in bold are from the rules itself, not from me,


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## thedaddyman (11 Apr 2017)

Leo said:


> Ridiculous. Event organisers have no entitlement to enforce road traffic legislation. That is the role of the Gardai.
> 
> 
> ..



Correct, but if it is badly organized with insufficient insurance then the organisers could be held liable for any accidents. Good advice here from the UK for any organisers

http://www.cyclinguk.org/guide/organise-charity-bike-ride-sportive


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## Leo (11 Apr 2017)

thedaddyman said:


> Correct, but if it is badly organized with insufficient insurance then the organisers could be held liable for any accidents.



Absolutely, but they can't be held liable for participants' behaviour or lack of compliance with road traffic legislation. They'd need to be proven to be negligent for liability to arise.


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## Leo (11 Apr 2017)

thedaddyman said:


> Worth noting what the actual rules of the road state
> 
> _In the company of one or more cyclists, you *must *have due regard to other users of the road, and you must take full account of prevailing road conditions._
> 
> _On occasion, it may be safe to cycle two abreast, but you *must not *cycle in a manner likely to create an obstruction for other road users._



Every road user must exhibit due regard for every other road user, motorists, cyclists, pedestrians, etc.. Cycling two abreast should not cause inconvenience to other road users unless it is a particularly narrow road. Often people who feel inconvenienced by this are those who feel it is OK to overtake with oncoming traffic. If it's a section of road where it would be unsafe to overtake another car, then perhaps it is unsafe to overtake a group of cyclists. Also, it is usually easier to overtake a group of 10 cyclists cycling two abreast than it is overtake 10 in single file. You'll also note from the legislation that while cyclists should keep to the left, they should only do so to a degree that does not cause them any inconvenience or endanger themselves in any way. 



thedaddyman said:


> _Cyclists *must* use any cycle track provided_



An example of a good reason why the rules of the road are a very poor substitute for the Road Traffic Acts. The legislation obliging cyclists to use cycle tracks where provided was only in place for a couple of years, and was removed in the 2012 act. The act also clearly defines cycle tracks, and greenways do not fall under that definition. It was never enforced as the Gardai said that to enforce it properly would require them to remove cars and other obstructions from cycling infrastructure, and they wouldn't do so as it would have too much of an impact of normal commercial activities.


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## dereko1969 (11 Apr 2017)

Leper said:


> I was not expecting some of the reactions that appeared on this thread:-
> (a) Cyclists to use narrow public road when an almost empty cycle/walk facility runs parallel to the road - Crazy!
> (b) Some do not want motorists to overtake cyclists - Lunacy!.
> (c) There appears a case for two cycle lanes (i) For slow cyclists (ii) For Fast cyclists - I'm sure the Irish taxpayer needs this like we need disease!
> ...



You might want to re-title the thread. Your true colours in relation to people cycling is now showing through.
How much time do you think you that woman who obviously drove too close for comfort to the cyclists actually saved whilst endangering others?
If I wasn't so annoyed, I'd actually laugh at the people driving who must overtake me in Dublin city in a dangerous fashion only to see me cycling by a few hundred metres up the road.
It's been pointed out to you a few times that Greenways aren't always suitable for groups out on a spin, yet you keep saying cyclist should use them rather than a road.
You also use the tired motor tax canard, you can bet that 95% of the people cycling also pay motor tax.
Where was the common sense of the motorist?


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## Páid (11 Apr 2017)

thedaddyman said:


> Worth noting what the actual rules of the road state
> 
> _<snipped>_
> 
> ...



That section of the RotR is not correct. I have emailed the RSA about it.

It's bad when the competent authority gets it wrong. The Gardaí have also tweeted mis-information about it in the past as well.


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## Leo (11 Apr 2017)

Páid said:


> That section of the RotR is not correct. I have emailed the RSA about it.



The poster they issued covering the roll out of FPNs for cyclists in 2015 also displayed a picture of a bike with illegal reflectors.


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## Leper (11 Apr 2017)

Somebody asked a question on what I thought was common sense.  Probably indicative of the whole issue here.  We have cyclists and motorists who are entrenched in almost open warfare against each other.  Common Sense is necessary from all motorists and cyclists and pedestrians.  Without it we might as well throw our hat at it.  To common sense I would also add Respect.  If we have the two, then we are most of the way to peace on our roads.  One shouting and gesticulating at the other solves nothing.  I cycle and drive to work (half and half weather permitting).  I see the lunatic fringe of motorists, cyclists, pedestrians, gardaí, traffic wardens, school wardens etc.  If we cannot share our roads with each other then there is no hope for any of us.


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## PaddyBloggit (11 Apr 2017)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4402718/Policeman-pulls-cyclist-flashing-blue-lights.html

​


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## Páid (12 Apr 2017)

That police officer is obviously not aware of what primary positioning means and why it is used by cyclists for safety.

https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/k...izn20130830-Effective-traffic-riding-part-1-0

Apparently 66% of Daily Mail readers don't either.


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## Leo (12 Apr 2017)

Leper said:


> Somebody asked a question on what I thought was common sense. ...  To common sense I would also add Respect.



The subject, your opening and other posts in this thread show very little respect for cyclists as road users. 



Leper said:


> If we cannot share our roads with each other then there is no hope for any of us.



So why post that cyclists using the road is crazy? Or that all users sharing the road is like a football team trying to share a cupcake?


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## PaddyBloggit (12 Apr 2017)

Education .... the lack of it is the major problem with drivers and cyclists.

Drivers aren't aware of their obligations towards cyclists and vice versa.

The biggest problem I see with regard to the education of cyclists is that there isn't any (formal) training.

We give a child a bike and they learn as they go. Schools could/should have a role here.

The RSA do provide school based (one day) courses and they are very good but it's not enough.

The roads are too busy now for complacency ... from everyone's point of view.



Páid said:


> .... Apparently 66% of Daily Mail readers don't either.



Now 70%

Great stuff on education/training etc. on the site you provided:

https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/education


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## Leper (12 Apr 2017)

Leo said:


> The subject, your opening and other posts in this thread show very little respect for cyclists as road users.
> 
> 
> 
> So why post that cyclists using the road is crazy? Or that all users sharing the road is like a football team trying to share a cupcake?



Leo, your're one guy whose posts I read because you always have something to say.  Your posts above are short of the mark. Please read my posts. And I think you're a Moderator


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## Leo (12 Apr 2017)

Leper said:


> Leo, your're one guy whose posts I read because you always have something to say.  Your posts above are short of the mark. Please read my posts. And I think you're a Moderator



Thanks, and I won't pretend I'm always right. I was attempting to understand why you chose the title you did, and seemed to be suggesting in the opening and other posts that the cyclists in question should not have been using the road, saying they were crazy for doing so. If I'm wide of the mark on my interpretation, it seems from other responses that I'm not alone. Please clarify if you feel that doesn't sum up your opinion or reading of the situation in the opening post (where it's not clear if the cyclists were overreacting or had a justifiable reason to complain, did you see the incident and the space allowed?).

There is some confusion because you speak of the need for common sense and respect from all road users towards each other, and this conflicts with some of your other postings. I'd be strongly of the opinion that there isn't enough common sense and respect on the roads, but that is endemic across all road users and to single out any specific grouping is unfair and unhelpful.


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## Leper (22 Apr 2017)

Leo said:


> Thanks, and I won't pretend I'm always right. I was attempting to understand why you chose the title you did, and seemed to be suggesting in the opening and other posts that the cyclists in question should not have been using the road, saying they were crazy for doing so. If I'm wide of the mark on my interpretation, it seems from other responses that I'm not alone. Please clarify if you feel that doesn't sum up your opinion or reading of the situation in the opening post (where it's not clear if the cyclists were overreacting or had a justifiable reason to complain, did you see the incident and the space allowed?).
> 
> There is some confusion because you speak of the need for common sense and respect from all road users towards each other, and this conflicts with some of your other postings. I'd be strongly of the opinion that there isn't enough common sense and respect on the roads, but that is endemic across all road users and to single out any specific grouping is unfair and unhelpful.



Let's recap for a minute. There seems to be some confusion on my stance in this instance. I never said cyclists should not be allowed to use our roads. What's confusing of my view that we need common sense and respect from all road users?

The instance I'm referring to was advertised as a cycle race from a fort in Cork City to another fort in Crosshaven. The section of the road between Carrigaline and Crosshaven is narrow and has a walk/cycle greenway running alongside which was nearly empty on the day in question. This was not a race where a few cyclists squared up to each other and cycled like fury to the destination. The "race" was a slow cycle for most of the participants starting at different times and finishing over several hours.

While I drove the road and after I had stopped at a picnic table I noticed several cyclists waving fists, giving two fingers, shouting etc at motorists.  One motorist (a cultivated English tourist) stopped after receiving the abuse and pointed to the greenway next to the road and suggested cyclists would be safer there because of the narrow public road. It was a Sunday and there were other events taking place in Crosshaven. The tourist rang the Gardaí after she felt intimidated by a loud cycling mafia of eejits who thought they owned the road.  This was only one of several like incidents. Most of the cyclists and motorists behaved well, but as usual there were minorities who were just bullies and had no regard for any other road user and sought nothing other than attention.

Was the route patrolled by stewards?:- When passing I did see three men together with red flags in Carrigaline who appeared to be doing nothing more than talking to each other. 

Was there a Garda presence?:- I noticed one squad car patrolling the Carrigaline - Crosshaven road once.  It is likely that there were several patrols after the reports of bullying.

Should the public road have been closed?:- I don't think so.  People driving should have entry to Crosshaven.

Should cyclists be obliged to use the greenway on the day of the race?:- I think so, but pedestrians should have been prevented from using it.

Somebody will probably say that the rights of pedestrians are curtailed not being allowed to use the greenway. But, I reckon the common sense option and in the interests of safety, an exception should have been made for the occasion. Furthermore, there should have been a time limit for the "race" from start to finish.  It was a fund raiser and cyclists started and finished over many hours.

Like I said earlier, I drive and cycle too.  Of course, I have seen stupid motorists, I have seen stupid cyclists and even come across stupid pedestrians on occasions.  Nobody is perfect.

These cycle races are becoming more and more popular and that is a good thing. If they are supervised properly, organised well and in advance, time controlled, with a sufficient garda presence there may be fewer problems. Throw in common sense and respect from all and you have a terrific occasion. The alternative is unthinkable.

I hope this clears up any confusion on my opinion. If not please feel free to ask specific questions and I will try to answer.


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## Leo (24 Apr 2017)

Leper said:


> never said cyclists should not be allowed to use our roads. What's confusing of my view that we need common sense and respect from all road users?



The confusion continues...



Leper said:


> Should cyclists be obliged to use the greenway on the day of the race?:- I think so, but pedestrians should have been prevented from using it.



So you think cyclists should be prevented from using a public road just because it may cause minor inconvenience to a small number of motorists. You're even prepared to inconvenience pedestrians and prohibit them from using a greenway just to free up roads for motorists. It's that attitude that somehow motorists are more entitled to the roads than any other class of road user that is the root of much of the conflict between drivers and other road users.

From your description, it sounds like there were more cyclists than motorists using that section of road, yet their rights are still inferior to those of a few car users who (again, just by the sounds of it) were endangering the cyclists by overtaking without due consideration.



Leper said:


> But, I reckon the common sense option and in the interests of safety, an exception should have been made for the occasion.



Why doesn't 'common sense' say that we all just share the road as we're entitled to do, and motorists, cyclists and pedestrians alike learn to respect each other a little more and obey the road traffic legislation?


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## AlbacoreA (24 Apr 2017)

Leper said:


> ...
> Should cyclists be obliged to use the greenway on the day of the race?:- I think so, but pedestrians should have been prevented from using it....



I think you are missing that the not all cyclists are the same. This is basically a sports event. Completely different to people leisurely going down a green way, or indeed commuting cyclists. 

I'm not saying where they should be. But please stop lumping all cyclists together. There's lot of different types of cyclists traveling at very different speeds and ability. Its not always appropriate to have them all share in the same space. 

Sounds like they picked an unsuitable road for their event. Maybe some drivers didn't give enough room. Who knows.


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## Leper (24 Apr 2017)

Leo said:


> The confusion continues...



Leo, with due respect the only person who appears confused is you.
Regards
Lep


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## Páid (25 Apr 2017)

I wonder if there was any of this type of behaviour at the event in your original post.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQE2YaHnNio


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## Leo (25 Apr 2017)

Leper said:


> Leo, with due respect the only person who appears confused is you.



Maybe you could help me out by explaining why you feel the 'common sense' solution is to remove cyclists from a public road they are every bit as entitled to use as motorists, and then restrict pedestrian access to a greenway? Just because the likely minority of those users were inconvenienced slightly? I'm of the opinion the common sense solution is everyone use the route of their choice as they are entitled to, do so in accordance with road traffic legislation and treat each other with a little courtesy and respect. All the argument for segregation does is further the myth that different categories of road users are incapable of sharing the roads.


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## AlbacoreA (25 Apr 2017)

If I was very driving and came across a sports event in the road ahead of me, id detour around them. 

One problem is some road users think they should have priority over others. That goes two ways. People need to relax and learn to co exist equally. 

Cyclists numbers are increasing. In some cases they out number motorists on the route. That will only increase as congestion b gets worse. 

That's the future.


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## dereko1969 (25 Apr 2017)

Actually the more cyclists there are, there should be a reduction in congestion. People driving should be thankful for the increase in cyclists as a good proportion of them would have been driving beforehand.
Leper, Leo isn't the only one confused!
From your points it seems to me that common sense to you is for cyclists to be bullied off the road onto a greenway that isn't suitable for a sponsored cycle (perhaps due to surfacing, some greenways are more for hybrid bikes not road bikes with skinny tyres), for the cyclists to bully pedestrians off the greenway and for motorists to drive unencumbered by manners, appropriate speed restrictions and concern for the safety of others.
That's not common sense to me.


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## AlbacoreA (25 Apr 2017)

Congestion isn't reducing because they are deliberately increasing congestion (reducing  capacity for cars) to force people to alternative methods of transport to make cities and such nicer places to live. I say that not to derail the discussion. But people will have to get used to a new environment on the roads, or more cyclists, and less space for cars.

Sporting events like cycling sportives are going to be more common.
http://www.stickybottle.com/coachin...dar-for-2017-in-full-over-300-events-to-ride/


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## Leo (25 Apr 2017)

AlbacoreA said:


> Congestion isn't reducing because they are deliberately increasing congestion (reducing  capacity for cars) to force people to alternative methods of transport to make cities and such nicer places to live.



True, it has been stated policy for some time now. Latest moves as reported yesterday.


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## Páid (25 Apr 2017)

Just came across this - http://www.thejournal.ie/posters-howth-cycling-strange-3339315-Apr2017/

Someone actually went to the trouble of printing 15 colour signs disparaging cycling and erected them in Howth.


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## AlbacoreA (25 Apr 2017)

Someone should attach littering notices to it. 

If they have a problem they should get the local Garda to fine a few people if they are cycling inappropriately.


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## Leo (26 Apr 2017)

I think the funniest part of those posters is the fact that they seem to think cyclists go both too fast and too slow. That and two cyclists side-by-side is enough to block up to 8 lanes of traffic! But of course whoever put them up will be fully convinced their illegal action is justified.


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## AlbacoreA (26 Apr 2017)

Or that cyclist is not traffic in the same way a tractor would be


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