# Front of multiple car collision



## Sylvester3 (11 Dec 2007)

Apologies if this has already been covered, but I couldn't find it in a quick search. Recently, I was the unlucky driver of a car at the front of a four car collision. My medium sized german car was struck by a SUV, which in turn was struck by a small car (crushed and undoubtedly written off) which was in turn hit by some other big car. This was on a dark wet stormy night on Sunday 2nd - I had to stop because of stopped traffic in front of me. I had room and time - they didn't, it seems.

details are hazy, to protect the guilty...

I waited with the others, gave statements and other personal details to the Gardai and then left an hour later. My personal statement has been from the start that I felt three thumps - i.e. each car struck in turn.

I took last monday off work (I was quite shaken up) and called both my insurer and the one who struck me. My insurer said to try and sort it out with the insurer of the party behind me, as otherwise I would have a €300 excess to pay. I did so and got a claim number and instructions to go to a local repair shop authorised by the insurance company. I took it to the repairer, had it assessed and photographed, and then left with the assurance that they would be taking it off my hands the following Monday (yesterday). Therefore on the day after the accident I had done everything I thought I had to do.

Throughout the week I got several calls from the insurers of the other parties, to each of whom I gave the same report and the details of the Gardai involved.

On Friday I called the repairer with the assurance that everything was good to go. 

On Monday, I took my (not road worthy) vehicle to work on the assumption that it would be picked up and replaced with a courtesy car. None came. I called several times with no return calls, despite promises that someone would get back to me.

So today, smelling a rat, I recalled the insurance company and asked them about the insurance. They said they needed to get the engineers report first and they would call me back. Knowing full well that they must have this, I waited an hour and called again. The girl told me then, that they were trying to work out if they should pay or the 
insurance company of the girl behind!

I called up the repairer and asked them straight out if the insurance company was holding up the repairs. He told me, off the record, that yes they were. They wanted him to determine how much of the damage was caused by each vehicle in the row of cars behind me... !? He said he didn't have a clue how to determine that, and he had my full sympathies. 

Now, In order to speed things along and make things as financially painful as possible for the insurer, I have decided to act on my rights and demand a hire car until my vehicle is repaired. Its obvious in my view that this should be a simple "knock for knock" as each driver failed to stop in time (except smug little old me...) I am also going to call up the poor girl handling my case every day until somebody makes a decision. 

Is there anything else I can do, or anyone I can complain to? I thought I might just do it all through my own insurer, but I just don't want to have to pay €300 just at the moment due to the numbskulls driving behind me.

Any advice appreciated!

Syl


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## aircobra19 (11 Dec 2007)

I'd take out the detail of your car if you don't want to be recognised.
The others behind you are liable. Just hound the insurance company to get sorted. In my experience you often get people in there that don't know what to do and they will claim off your policy if its easier and causes them less hassle. But they shouldn't do this. You should also do as much of this in writing and confirm every phone call in writing documenting the phone call. Get everyones name you talk to. Again in my experience insurance companies can be very forgetful when it comes to renewal about what they said at time like this. 

Does your insurance cover the cost of a hire car? Not all do. But I could be wrong on that.


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## John Rambo (11 Dec 2007)

Something similar happened me too once so I have to ask...why did you contact your own insurance company? I didn't. I was at the front of a three car collision in similar circumstances and hammered the car behind me for rental cars, compensation etc. In my experience the car that hits you is the one you deal with and the others are irrelevant?


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## Ravima (11 Dec 2007)

Firstly, you are the innocent party. all drivers should be driving at a speed wherby they can stop without hitting the car in front.

You felt three bumps. 

The car immediately behind is primarily liable, perhaps he/she has rights of contribution against the cars behind, but that is not really your concern. Although, if pushed and you need t ogo to Court, you will be sueing all three and let them each worry about the cpntribution towards you.

the simplest way to deal with the matter, and I know you will get different views here and elsewhere, is to claim from your comprehensive policy and let your insurers follow up recovery of their outlay.

If you are injured, the situation is more complicated in that until all the other insurers have agreed a sharing agreement.


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## Sylvester3 (11 Dec 2007)

John Rambo said:


> Something similar happened me too once so I have to ask...why did you contact your own insurance company? I didn't. I was at the front of a three car collision in similar circumstances and hammered the car behind me for rental cars, compensation etc. In my experience the car that hits you is the one you deal with and the others are irrelevant?



Hi John, this is my first real accident so I wasn't really sure what to do. I was under the impression my insurance company needed to know as the Gardai and other parties took my details and I wanted them to have my version of events early on.

I was under the same impression as you, that the party behind me should pay, but I don't know how I am meant to hammer them. Do I just go out and hire a car and then submit the invoices to them, or do I need to get their agreement first to avoid being out of pocket? I'm in the middle of buying a house and I really don't want too much extra hassle - I just want my blooming car fixed! Thats the problem I think - I'm too nice to them. What are my rights and how do I assert them? 

I wasn't injured by the way - I knew the dolt behind wouldn't stop in time and braced myself for impact.


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## Sylvester3 (11 Dec 2007)

Ravima said:


> Firstly, you are the innocent party. all drivers should be driving at a speed wherby they can stop without hitting the car in front.
> 
> You felt three bumps.
> 
> ...



I'm tempted to follow your advice, I just don't want to be stung for €300 at this time. Its a small cost overall, but I really begrudge it.


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## Sylvester3 (11 Dec 2007)

aircobra19 said:


> I'd take out the detail of your car if you don't want to be recognised.
> The others behind you are liable. Just hound the insurance company to get sorted. In my experience you often get people in there that don't know what to do and they will claim off your policy if its easier and causes them less hassle. But they shouldn't do this. You should also do as much of this in writing and confirm every phone call in writing documenting the phone call. Get everyones name you talk to. Again in my experience insurance companies can be very forgetful when it comes to renewal about what they said at time like this.
> 
> Does your insurance cover the cost of a hire car? Not all do. But I could be wrong on that.



All good advice, thanks! I'm already keeping a 'kind of' log, but I will do better. My insurance company provides a hire car, but I don't know about the car behind. I just want some way to legitimately increase the cost to insurer to give them some impetus to bring this situation to a close.


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## John Rambo (11 Dec 2007)

Sylvester3 said:


> Hi John, this is my first real accident so I wasn't really sure what to do. I was under the impression my insurance company needed to know as the Gardai and other parties took my details and I wanted them to have my version of events early on.
> 
> I was under the same impression as you, that the party behind me should pay, but I don't know how I am meant to hammer them. Do I just go out and hire a car and then submit the invoices to them, or do I need to get their agreement first to avoid being out of pocket? I'm in the middle of buying a house and I really don't want too much extra hassle - I just want my blooming car fixed! Thats the problem I think - I'm too nice to them. What are my rights and how do I assert them?
> 
> I wasn't injured by the way - I knew the dolt behind wouldn't stop in time and braced myself for impact.


 
When it happened to me I called the guards on the spot and the person who ran into me admitted liability on the spot. Therefore I just rented a car, went to the doctor, saw a physio and estimated the cost of my time off to see these people and hit the car behind's insurance company for this. I never dealt or informed my insurance company.


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## aircobra19 (12 Dec 2007)

Just keep ringing them and writing to them. Keep the pressure up.


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## collieb (12 Dec 2007)

Sylvester3 said:


> I wasn't injured by the way - I knew the dolt behind wouldn't stop in time and braced myself for impact.


 
I wouldn't be so quick to judge that at this stage. I know people that have had car accidents, thought they were fine and 6 months later started getting back problems that can take years of physio/massage/alternative therapy to sort out. I'm not saying it will happen, but it might.


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## csirl (12 Dec 2007)

If it were me, I'd ring the person in the car behind me and tell them that I am sending them the bills for repair, car hire etc. after all they are responsible. I wouldnt be contacting insurance companies - its up to the guilty person to sort out how the finance paying for the damage they have done. Only they can decide whether or not they wish to pay out of their own resources, claim on their own insurance or a combination of both. They should be doing all the ringing and running around, not you.


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## oldtimer (12 Dec 2007)

I may be wrong, (fortunately never had an accident), but it was my understanding one always contacts the insurance company after an accident.


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## Sylvester3 (12 Dec 2007)

After a raging argument with the insurance company of the car behind me, who claimed that they had to wait until the other insurance companies had agreed their liability before they would authorise repairs, I have bitten the bullet and gone through my own comp insurance. I'm really very angry about it, but the insurance company is an immovable object and I'm not an irresistable force I'm afraid (my wife thinks different bless her!).

Fun facts folks, my no claims bonus is lost until my insurance company gets their money back from the other insurers. I also don't get my excess back until then.  

Also the cheeky beggars in the last two cars took the registration details of the car in front of me who got out to check if I was ok and then left. They claim that the crash was his fault! The garda are chasing him for leaving the scene of the accident! Poor guy.


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## snuffle (14 Dec 2007)

I'm mad on your behalf!!!
I was involved in a similar incident (was at a standstill in traffic at red lights, and some eejit 4 cars back hit the accelerator instead of the brake causing all 4 cars including mine at the top of the queue to shunt forward badly and get damaged). 

I had major hassle with the insurance company to get the issue resolved, and the funny thing is that all of the cars involved in the pileup were all with the same big-name insurer, a handy coincidence I would have thought as it meant only 1 company dealing with all claims. However, they dragged their heels, argued with me about cost of repairs vs write-off, argued over providing a hire car, etc. 

I stood my ground however, and when I finally lost patience threatened them with my solicitor (my imaginary solicitor at that!) told them he'd be in touch with details of costs incurred to me for reimbursement, and hey presto, hire car miraculously covered for the guts of two weeks, full cost of written off car provided as opposed to a paltry two grand to repair it (I stood firm telling them that car would be worthless when I went to trade it in as a "crashed and repaired" car as it was actually badly damaged - concertinaed chassis etc).

I know this is a bit late now, but if I were you, I would have stood my ground and asked to speak to manager/keep going higher until you get someone who will get sick of hearing you on the phone 5 times a day and just sort you out so you'll get out of their hair. In your situation, you should be claiming off the insurer of the car behind, they claim off the car behind them etc, and seeing as you clearly recall the 3 distinct thumps and gardai took a statement from you to that effect, there should be no issue here for them to argue over as regards liability - you have no liability in this situation, the insurer of the car behind you has liability for damaging your car, and so on.

I'm sorry you had to go through your own insurance, for what it's worth next time (hopefully there won't be one) or for others in a similar situation who may read this, don't assume insurance companies are immovable forces. 

Create enough fuss (if you are in the right naturally enough) and go high enough up the chain (don't accept whatever the frontline person on the phone has to say, insist on speaking to their managers, and their manager's managers!), and they will give up trying to weasel out/offering you less than you are entitled to. I assume most insurance companies are trying to limit the costs to them and if they can get away with fobbing you off re hire cars, and offering you less than they should for repairs or writeoffs, they will tr,y naturally enough. They are businesses after all. Stand firm, refuse to back down, annoy them enough, be prepared to go legal, and they will sigh and get the thumb out.

Hope you get sorted out eventually BTW.


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## aircobra19 (15 Dec 2007)

Sylvester3 said:


> ....
> Fun facts folks, my no claims bonus is lost until my insurance company gets their money back from the other insurers. I also don't get my excess back until then. ...



I simply wouldn't trust an insurance company at this stage. They do everything to load your insurance then try everything not to pay out, even when its a valid claim. Keep a camera in the car.


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## Marathon Man (16 Dec 2007)

Haven't had a multi but have had a number of damage claims against third parties.  It's at times like this that you find out whether insurance Co. are worth their business - in my experience many are not.  Also your claim may be dealt with by some twit who hasn't either much experience or much between the ears - or both.   When something like this happens you are in a quandry as to what to do.  *As long as YOU do nothing, the insurance Companies are saving money.*
You are, based on what you've said here, clearly in the right.  In addition, the guy in front of you was not involved - you had stopped well behind him.  The suggestion that he was at fault is a red herring.

My suggestion:
You are obliged to minimise the costs involved - you clearly have attempted to do so.  
Tomorrow morning, contact both the insurance Co of the guy immediately behind you and also of your own insurance co.  Find out the name of the Claims Dept managers and their fax nos.  
Send both a fax explaining the situation, with their accident/claims reference nos, if any, and inform them that you have tried to sort this out but that you require a car and, unless you receive confirmation, by close of business tomorrow, that the party that struck you is going to pay, that you will be obliged to hand the matter over to your solicitor - tell them that he has already been informed of the situation - and also that you will hire a replacement car until your own car is repaired.  If you have a solicitor, ring him and explain the situation - you don't have to do anything just yet.  If you haven't got one, you may need one now.  
You need to seriously kick butts on this one!!  You've attempted to minimise costs and it appears that someone is trying to take advantage.  The usual in this situation, I understand, is for the companies to pay up and sort out who pays the piper themselves.  Make sure your complaint on the delay is in writing as soon as possible.  
You might also contact the office of the Ombudsman for Financial Institutions and ask them if they have any advice on how to proceed - they may not be able to help at this stage, but it's worth a shot.


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## Sylvester3 (18 Dec 2007)

Thanks for all the advice everyone. I have asked a solicitor to look into it for me, but I think I bailed out too early. Oh well, c'est la vie!


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## Marathon Man (18 Dec 2007)

Hi Sylvester,
*You are entitled to be put into the position you were in before the accident.* 

I suggest that you contact your insurance Co again and inform them that you claimed on the basis of them being reimbursed from the proceeds of your claim against the party that struck you.  

I expect that your insuranmce Co will understand the position, but if you let this go through as a claim against your own insurance,  and pocket the full proceeds of the claim, you will be paying an additional premium for several years, through no fault of your own!.......... and will also be tied to your present insurance Co. for up to 5 years - no shopping round - other Cos won't touch you! 

Make sure your solicitor is aware that you have claimed against your insurance and that there is/may be an ongoing cost arising from this.

*Remember:* *You are entitled to be put into the position you were in before the accident.*


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## aircobra19 (18 Dec 2007)

I think you've given the insurance company an easy out.


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## Sylvester3 (18 Dec 2007)

Don't get me wrong - I will certainly be making sure that the insurance companies of the drivers behind pay up before my next renewal date. I am staying in contact with my insurance company to make sure that the correct pressure is applied. Interestingly my insurance company told me that they will be claiming the entire amount off the insurer of the driver who struck me and letting them worry about getting what they can from the other insurers as the driver behind is solely liable for my damage no matter what they think - exactly the argument I made!! Oh well, they are bigger and tougher than me I suppose... 

I am determined to not be left out of pocket.... eventually at least.


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## DAVIDBERNARD (22 Dec 2007)

Hi
Like the above, I have also recentily been rear ended by another car, my fault in the situation would be zero, and no one was injured (good thing).
Garda reports and witness details, photographs notes were made just incase anyone tried to change the record of what happened.  I wanted to waste as little time on the incident .But what really buggs me and I can see from the above that others have encountered the issue that when reporting an incident to ones own insurer (required) that they  attempted to process the incident as a claim against my own policy.  

In my case the incident was small enough, but I am silentily screaming at this insanity, my own insurer is meant to be on myside ? 
It should not be their aim  to try and take the easiest way out. Yes they are in the business of making money, but they are meant to be providing a service also which has been paid for ?  

I realise no one else above mentioned their insurrer in the previous messages, but it would seem like an insurrers common practice to first attempt to process an incident as a claim on the person reporting the incident. Is it possible to start a poll naming and shaming the insurrers
who attempt to do this ?


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## mercman (28 Dec 2007)

Sylvester. If you have comprehensive Insurance, your Insurance Company should have advised you to go ahead and get your car fixed -- end of story. As for the fellow in front of you, you didn't hit him so why bring him into the foray. The Golden rule is that if you are hit behind it is always the driver of the car behinds fault - end of story. It is up to the Insurance Co to sort the matters out, but these things do take time. They have thousands of claims ongoing at any one time. But comprehensive Insurance should take the sting out of it. If they are acting in a negligent manner, write to the Insurance Federation who deal with these type of things, but remember the accident only happened on 2nd.December.


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## Sylvester3 (12 Mar 2008)

The other insurance companies have finally agreed their liabilities on this matter - splitting the cost between them 3 ways. This doesn't make any sense to me as surely the SUV which hit me did far more damage than the compact car that struck him, but at least they are paying my insurance company now. I got the 1st third of my excess back and am just waiting for the other two checks now. It took over 3 months for them to finally come to that resolution though! I'm glad my renewal is towards the end of the year, so my NCB should be reinstated by then.


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## ailbhe (12 Mar 2008)

The reason the companies do this is to allow you to get your car fixed ASAP. The alternative is to wait 3 months as per the OPs case in order to get all the other insurance companies to settle up. 
So when you have an incident like that the choice is yours. Report it to your insurance co as a claim and let them go after the person who hit you. This means you can get your car fixed right away.
The other alternative is to report it and state that you are doing so for report purposes only. Then pursue the other insurers separatly and wait 3 months for a settlement.
The reason the insurance co will treat it as a claim (if you get them to pay out and go after third party) is they are relying on you telling the truth. They weren't there and son't knw who was at fault. Why would they pay out and leave your bonus intact and pay the excess on your word only. 
I'm sure that they often have cases where people insist they are not at fault when they are or it goes 50/50. How would they recover money paid/premium in those instances? Look around AAM. There are numerous threads of people in incidents where they believe the third party is at fault and the third party doesn't think so.

By the way on the courtesy car issue, your insurance co only has to provide you with a courtesy car if you are claiming off your own insurance. If you are claiming off a third party you hire your car and bill them for it.


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## MsGinger (12 Mar 2008)

collieb said:


> I wouldn't be so quick to judge that at this stage. I know people that have had car accidents, thought they were fine and 6 months later started getting back problems that can take years of physio/massage/alternative therapy to sort out. I'm not saying it will happen, but it might.


 
I have to agree with this - I was in a rear end collision in January and felt more or less okay until a couple of weeks after when I had pain in my lower neck & shoulders.  Luckily, it only took 3 sessions of physio to sort it out, but I'd be very wary of telling the insurers that you feel fine.


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## Sylvester3 (14 Mar 2008)

MsGinger said:


> I have to agree with this - I was in a rear end collision in January and felt more or less okay until a couple of weeks after when I had pain in my lower neck & shoulders.  Luckily, it only took 3 sessions of physio to sort it out, but I'd be very wary of telling the insurers that you feel fine.




What do you suggest one does then? If you feel fine after an accident (and 3 months after an accident) how does one connect the incident to any future spinal problems? Do you tell the insurance company "I'll get back to you in three years time to tell you if I'm injured.."?


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## aircobra19 (14 Mar 2008)

I wonder will VHI start refusing to pay for treatment of these "prior conditions", as seems to be their habit of late.


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## peteb (14 Mar 2008)

Sylvester3 said:


> What do you suggest one does then? If you feel fine after an accident (and 3 months after an accident) how does one connect the incident to any future spinal problems? Do you tell the insurance company "I'll get back to you in three years time to tell you if I'm injured.."?


 

You currently have two years from the date of an accident or when you realised you were injured to make a personal injuries claim.


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