# Family believes they are being misled re: deceased estate



## lawnovice (27 Sep 2010)

Edited


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## mercman (27 Sep 2010)

In the first instance I extend my sympathies to you and your family for your recent loss. From reading your post, the entire matter stinks. If your father left a significant amount of money and other assets and you are unable to find it, why oh why are you using a small legal firm which knows your business and appears to be keeping you informed on a drip feed basis. This sounds like a job for a specialised large legal firm, where you will be told the truth, told what your entitlements are and those of others, and more importantly kept up to date.

You will probably need to all meet together to discuss the matter and to rack your heads as to the little pieces that might be remembered.

And if you do need a reason to move solicitor, the present one has given it to you by failing to keep you advised.


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## millieforbes (27 Sep 2010)

Perhaps you should try another solicitor. Start by having a discussoin with them upfront of how they will handle the estate, how would they go about determining assets, finding bank accounts etc. 

If you can at all, try to approach engaging a solicitor as a business deal in the same way you would any other - look for prices upfront and confirmation of what services will be included and how they will provide you with the best service


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## SoylentGreen (28 Sep 2010)

When I worked in a financial Institution some years ago we had many elderly men who maintained numerous accounts in ficticious names. This was long before money laundering regulations and I.D. requirements. Quite often names used were in Irish, in wifes maiden name, using their second name, shortened version of name such as Liam, William, Willie etc.
We had one charachter who called in to see me after the previous manager had retired. He handed me a bundle of money and asked me to lodge it in to his account. When I asked him for details of his account, name, address etc he said he didn't know and that I was to ring the retired manager because he would know.
Just to be aware. If you write to a bank and ask them if they have an account in the name of John James McDonagh of Ballygobackwards and they haven't they will write and tell you that they haven't.  However they might have an account in the name of Jamie McDonagh of Ballygobackwards but they won't disclose this.
So when writing to your local banks, make sure that you include variations of names that might be used.

It was frightening to see the amount of money sitting in dormant accounts, never claimed by anyone. I am sure that many widows and children lost out because of this type of carry on.

Another point. Do not throw anything out belonging to the deceased. Many elderly people (including my own father) will not allow the bank to post anything to him. It always has to be collected. In my fathers case he is terrified that his statement might get in to the hands of his neighbour. There should be lodgements slips, promotional literature even, anything that might link the deceased to a financial institution.

A recent discovery in my own fathers case showed that he had €100k sitting in a current account for we think up to 20 years. Never earned a penny interest during that time. When queried as to why it was sitting there...I might need to write a cheque.  And this from someone who drove 10 miles to save 5p on a pint.


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## mf1 (28 Sep 2010)

Who do the family feel is misleading them?


"Firstly, the will. Unfortunately, my father was a very private man."

Heres where we start. Did he have a will or did he not have a will? Have the family done a thorough search of his house and business premises to see if they can find any clue? 

"What the family are wondering is, is there a way for us to locate the will? Could it be sitting in another solicitors office? What action can we take to locate it?" 

The usual way is for someone to contact local solicitors or advertise in the newspaper or Law Society Gazette. If you cannot find a will or a copy of a will, then you have to conclude that there is no will either because he never made one or destroyed one that he did make. 

"we proceeded to deal with his estate with aforementioned solicitor. So far, he has failed to inform us, update us or even deal with the situation sensitively."

What is missing here is a sense of responsibility by OP to deal with the issues. It may be that the solicitor is a waste of space or it may be that he is dealing with clients who keep running away from the issues. You will never get to the heart of the matter on an internet forum. 


"We have had no contact with the children since their father died and are very concerned as to what they have in store as they never liked my father nor any of his children including their own father as he walked out on them long before he died. Do they now have a say in what happens?"

This is the nub of the problem. If there is no will then the deceased's child's children are entitled to his share. They cannot extract a Grant but they are beneficiaries.

"Another issue we have is that the solicitor promised to carry out a full search of my fathers assets. He claimed to have found only 400e in cash."

This does not make any sense. Only the family would have access to the bank details and they would supply those to the solicitor. The solicitor would then correspond with the known banks to ascertain what accounts they had. They could also  write to other institutions and enquire. Is the OP saying that they think the solicitor has found more but is pocketing it? I think soylent green probably describes the situation really well. 

mf


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## sam h (28 Sep 2010)

OP,

I was exectutor for my dads estate.  He had alot of different accounts, most with little or nothing in them.  Some I had records for & some not.

So I decided to writie to all the financial insitutions I could find reference to & all of the main ones and asked for any details relating to:
 - John Bloggs
 - John James Bloggs
 - JJ Bloggs 
 - J Bloggs
 - Johnny Bloggs
I also included the 2 addresses he had lived at.

Not sure how it works if you are not executor.  Has anyone been appointed administrator?  You may be better going to another soliciotr, but bear in mind if it turns out there is no funds, you will have to pay for their time.

Has the solicitor shown you exactly what he has uncovered?  Has he shown you details of where the €400 was....is it in a business account and maybe the business was failing but your dad didn't tell anyone?

You may have to conceed that your brothers family are entitled to their share.  They should not have to pay for the fact their father walked on on them.  Would you really begrudge them 1/5 of 1/7 of a share each ?


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## lawnovice (28 Sep 2010)

mf1 said:


> Who do the family feel is misleading them?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


lol


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## lawnovice (28 Sep 2010)

sam h said:


> OP,
> 
> I was exectutor for my dads estate.  He had alot of different accounts, most with little or nothing in them.  Some I had records for & some not.
> 
> ...


No we dont begrudge them it at all. edit


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## Padraigb (28 Sep 2010)

Several things are unclear.

First, are you and all your siblings broadly in agreement on how you want things to go?
Second, how far has business proceeded? Has the solicitor taken out a Grant of Administration and, if he has, who is the administrator?
Third, have family members trawled through your father's personal and business papers in order to find out what he owned?
Fourth, has your son any current knowledge of the business situation?

You should note that the administrator has the same responsibility to every beneficiary: to deal with the estate in a proper manner (which includes the idea that it is businesslike) and treat all beneficiaries fairly. If you and your siblings wish to hold on to the family home and the business, you will have to find a way to provide for the expectations of your deceased's brother's children.


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## dereko1969 (28 Sep 2010)

lawnovice said:


> lol


 
Rather than Lol'ing at MF1's advice (who has been on this website for years and has freely given great advice to many many people with legal issues) you might address yourself to the issues they have mentioned. And actually follow their advice by putting ads in the Law Society Gazette and local newspapers.


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## lawnovice (28 Sep 2010)

dereko1969 said:


> Rather than Lol'ing at MF1's advice (who has been on this website for years and has freely given great advice to many many people with legal issues) you might address yourself to the issues they have mentioned. And actually follow their advice by putting ads in the Law Society Gazette and local newspapers.


The parts I quoted were speculative and nowhere in my original post did I accuse my solicitor of stealing from us. I do not wish to enter a back and forth with any poster regardless of who they are or how long they post., I am merely here to seek constructive advice.


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## lawnovice (28 Sep 2010)

Padraigb said:


> Several things are unclear.
> 
> First, are you and all your siblings broadly in agreement on how you want things to go?
> Second, how far has business proceeded? Has the solicitor taken out a Grant of Administration and, if he has, who is the administrator?
> ...


Thanks for your response. To answer your questions:

Yes, me and my siblings are in agreement as to what should be done.
I am not sure how far the estate has proceeded, the solicitor will not tell us, other than to say everything is in order and proceeding. I had no idea that an administrator was appointed until you mentioned this, which worries me as we cannot seem to get answers from our solicitor in clear language.


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## mf1 (28 Sep 2010)

Why does your heading say 

"Family believes they are being misled re: deceased estate"

and who do you think is misleading you? 

"I am merely here to seek constructive advice. "

That is precisely what you got. 

mf


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## mercman (28 Sep 2010)

lawnovice said:


> in my original post did I accuse my solicitor of stealing from us.



Agreed but it is a little smelly that knowing the circumstances of the clients, and also having known the deceased, one would of thought that he would have been more approachable and involved and keen to end this matter for a group of persons who could bring in additional business in the future and especially at these difficult times.


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## lawnovice (28 Sep 2010)

edited


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## dereko1969 (28 Sep 2010)

lawnovice said:


> The parts I quoted were speculative and nowhere in my original post did I accuse my solicitor of stealing from us. I do not wish to enter a back and forth with any poster regardless of who they are or how long they post., *I am merely here to seek constructive advice*.


 
which is what mf1 did provide with telling you how you might find out more information about a will you believe exists and which your solicitor has told you doesn't exist.

you mentioned in your OP that the solicitor found only €400 and that you find this "impossible"! a link between that impossibility and doubts about the trustworthiness of the solicitor could be made.

was your father a sole trader? you mention company, were they one and the same?


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## lawnovice (28 Sep 2010)

edit

To be honest, the stress is taking its toll.


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## lawnovice (28 Sep 2010)

edit


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## mf1 (28 Sep 2010)

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/c...seds-estate/dealing_with_the_deceaseds_estate

I suggest that OP reads this and then decides whether to stay with the current solicitor ( unlikely as they are unhappy) or, more probably, goes elsewhere. Preferably  to someone who is recommended to them and who comes with good credentials. 

mf


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## lawnovice (28 Sep 2010)

mf1 said:


> I suggest that OP reads this and then decides whether to stay with the current solicitor ( unlikely as they are unhappy) or, more probably, goes elsewhere. Preferably  to someone who is recommended to them and who comes with good credentials.
> 
> mf



Thanks for this.


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## Padraigb (28 Sep 2010)

When you have read mf1's link, you need to sort out a couple of things:
1. You should decide who, among you, is to play a lead role (note that a grant of administration is normally given to an individual who, in your family circumstances, should be you or one of your siblings).
2. You need to ascertain how far the solicitor has advanced matters, and arrange for a handover of material if a new solicitor is to be appointed.

Whether the current solicitor or another one is to work on the estate, you should recognise that the solicitor is technically working for the administrator. I am not suggesting that whoever is the administrator should interfere a great deal, but he or she is entitled to know what is happening. That one person should be the channel between family members and the solicitor.

You should also be realistic: even though your father was, as you say, a very private man, it is likely that family members will have more chance of discovering things than a solicitor who is something of a stranger to the family.

Two things in what you say about the solicitor who is currently involved disturb me.
First, it seems he gave you to believe that your deceased brother's children had no entitlement, and then changed his position. The rights of your nieces/nephews is so clear in law that there never should have been a doubt about it, and if you thought otherwise either your solicitor was wrong or your understanding of what he said was wrong.
Second, you have the impression that the solicitor might be shutting you out. That might be justifiable if one of your siblings is the chosen administrator and the solicitor is dealing with him or her, but you give the impression that every family member is being shut out. If that is so, that is not right.

You should read again what mf1 has said. You might not like the forthright style, especially if you are feeling a bit raw, but he is a well-respected poster here for good reason.


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## lawnovice (28 Sep 2010)

Thanks for your help in adding clarity to what is a really confusing situation for us.


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## mathepac (29 Sep 2010)

Padraigb said:


> ... The rights of your nieces/nephews is so clear in law that there never should have been a doubt about it, and if you thought otherwise either your solicitor was wrong or your understanding of what he said was wrong.
> ...


Sorry to have to contradict you but AFAIK any "rights"  OP's nieces/nephews might have hinge on the existence of a will and the wishes expressed by the testator on the one hand or the intestacy of the deceased on the other; the law only comes in to play in a case of intestacy, otherwise the will takes precedence.


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## Padraigb (29 Sep 2010)

mathepac said:


> Sorry to have to contradict you but AFAIK any "rights"  OP's nieces/nephews might have hinge on the existence of a will and the wishes expressed by the testator on the one hand or the intestacy of the deceased on the other; the law only comes in to play in a case of intestacy, otherwise the will takes precedence.



My understanding is that this estate is being dealt with as an intestacy. The Succession Act confers inheritance rights on the deceased brother's children. Obviously if a will is found, it's a game-changer.


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