# I have emigrated for good. Can I hand the keys back?



## heidelberg (6 Dec 2009)

My daughter left her Ireland home several years ago and is now a citizen of a Non European, far away, country.
Meanwhile I've been looking after her home - getting tenants etc.
Her home has about 100K negative equity.
I wont live for ever so the time will come when she has to make a decision what to do with those keys!
I am against 'welshing' on these things but if she decided to have the keys sent back to the loan institution what can they really do?
They have no idea where she is and I'm not going to tell (if I'm still alive).
I presume she could never set foot in Ireland again?
Would appreciate some advice - thanks.


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## callybags (6 Dec 2009)

*Re: handing keys back*

What's the problem?
Can she not keep up the payments on the property?
Does she want to sell it?
Why do you say "the time will come" when she has do decide... what decision does she have to make?
The fact that she is in a "far away country" is irrelevant; her responsibilities are the same.


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## heidelberg (9 Dec 2009)

*Re: handing keys back*

Thanks 'callybags' for reply.

She has an interest only loan just now but next year this will end and a problem will arise trying to pay capital back as well.
I'm in the 'winter' of my life and when I pass away she will have nobody to help her out. Frankly I can do without this extra stress at this time of my life.

She has taken my advice to continue and pay the loan company as long as she can afford to do so.
I also told her the price of the house will surely go back up to as near as dammit to the original price in 12/18 years time when she could have it sold then and come clean out of it.
However if for whatever reason she was unable to continue repayments what are the likely repercussions if she eventually had to hand the keys back?
She thinks the fact she is a citizen of a country far away and she has no intention of ever coming back to Ireland the loan company would have a big problem chasing her for the outstanding monies due.

Frankly I am unable to advise her on this because I simply don't know.
Any advise or knowledge would be welcome.

Meanwhile please note -
She, and I, are both well aware of what the responsibilites are.


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## canicemcavoy (9 Dec 2009)

*Re: handing keys back*



heidelberg said:


> I am against 'welshing' on these things but if she decided to *have the keys sent back to the loan institution* what can they really do


 
This concept doesn't apply to Ireland. She can return the house to the bank, but they'll still chase her for the outstanding amount.


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## moneyhoney (9 Dec 2009)

*Re: handing keys back*

There's a (fairly) common misconception that you can hand your keys over to your lender & that is an end to your responsibility for your debt. However, it doesn't work like that in Ireland.

If your daughter stopped paying the mortgage, the lender would eventually repossess the house. Then they'd sell it and she'd be liable for whatever the shortfall is. Also bear in mind that if they reposess, she'd be most likely liable for all the bank's legal costs as well - as well as interest on the arrears etc. which would build up to quite a large sum. Much more than she currently owes. 

Then they'll pursue her for the debt. How long this would last I don't know - years anyway. Her credit rating in Ireland will be shot - essentially, she'll never be able to take out a loan, mortgage, credit card again. And the bank will pursue her for the money. No-one can disappear nowadays - very easy to find people.  

You say that she's on interest only. She could talk to the bank to try & extend that on the basis that she can't afford to repay capital too and also on the basis that she can't sell up to repay the mortgage.  

As regards your stress, your daughter could find someone else to look after the house, tenants etc - and pay them for this service. I presume you are doing it as a favour? And how stressful do you think it would be if you're getting constant phone calls/letters for your daughter after she's stopped paying the mortgage?

I don't mean to sound harsh so this is all meant with your welfare in mind - this is your daughter's responsibility, not yours.


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## Mpsox (9 Dec 2009)

*Re: handing keys back*

I don't believe under Irish legislation that you can simply "hand the keys back". The lender will need to get a repossesion order on the house and that would involve going to court to get this

Her credit rating in Ireland would be wrecked and whilst you say she never has any intention of returning to Ireland, you can never say never.

Assuming the bank gets a repossesion order, sells the house for less then the outstanding loan, then she would still be liable for the difference, + potentially any costs. It would be awkard for the bank to chase her for the outstanding debt, but not impossible.

I'm assuming in all of this by the way, that your daughter is the only name on the mortgage

From your perspective and to remove the stress from your life, why not tell your daughter to get a letting agency to handle renting the house in the future? It would cost more to her but for the sake of her Mammy, may be the best option


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## AlbacoreA (9 Dec 2009)

*Re: handing keys back*

You could simply use a letting agency to manage the house for her.

Perhaps it would make a net loss for a few years, but my guess it would be a lot less than the debt you'd owed the bank if they repossess.


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## Complainer (9 Dec 2009)

*Re: handing keys back*

Never say never in terms of returning to Ireland. Unless she is very, very settled in her new home and has put down substantial roots there (kids/schools/family etc), she may well want to return to Ireland at some stage in the future.


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## Bronte (9 Dec 2009)

*Re: handing keys back*



heidelberg said:


> She thinks the fact she is a citizen of a country far away and she has no intention of ever coming back to Ireland the loan company would have a big problem chasing her for the outstanding monies due.
> 
> .


 
You daughter is correct.  

There have been threads on here from people who have gone far far away.  Despite what everyone else has been saying about the banks chasing people around the world, they don't do this in reality, certainly not for 'far away countries,' what would be the point.  

There also comes a point in a parent's life when you have to let them do their own thing.  You do not need this stress so let it go.


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## onq (9 Dec 2009)

heidelberg said:


> My daughter left her Ireland home several years ago and is now a citizen of a Non European, far away, country.
> Meanwhile I've been looking after her home - getting tenants etc.
> Her home has about 100K negative equity.
> I wont live for ever so the time will come when she has to make a decision what to do with those keys!
> ...



This seems to be a drastic step merely because your daughter has emigrated.

I presume the rent is covering the mortgage?

If so, place the property with a letting agent.

They will keep it rented, ensure the morgage is paid, the tenant pays for the utilities, appoint someone to carry out any repairs, pay all bills and deduct fees for their service.

Use a reputable firm but keep an eye on them.

If the rent is inadequate, you should do a deal with the bank - of which handing over the keys may be a part, but in relation to future valuation, your daughter should seek some kind of comeback.

ONQ.


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## Padraigb (9 Dec 2009)

In law, she owes the money. Essentially, you are asking for advice on breaking a contract that she freely made.


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## ibaraki (9 Dec 2009)

If your daughter hands back the keys, and the bank sells the house at a considerable loss, could the bank sell off the 'owed money' to a 3rd party debt collection agency and they then will make your life a living hell in their attemp to contact your daughter through you?  I don't know if such a scenario is possible in Ireland, but it's worth keeping in mind.


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## csirl (9 Dec 2009)

Some posters have alluded to the fact that the bank may have difficulties in recovering the debt from her as she's overseas. However, at the risk of sounding insensitive and morbid, you mention that you are in the winter of your life. I assume that your daughter will probably inherit something from you? Maybe a share in your house? So, at some stage in the not to distant future, your daughter will have assets in this country that the bank will be able to get hold off in order to pay off her debts. This may simply be a case of your daughter saving some money in the short term, but losing loads incl. legal fees, interest etc. in the long term.


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## heidelberg (9 Dec 2009)

Many thanks for all the replies.
I find them very interesting and helpful.
I have set about getting an agent to do the necessary as I have just got notice the present tenants are moving out end of December.

'csirl' is very accurate in his assumption that my daughter will inherit something on my demise.
I will continue to encourage her to continue paying to the best of her ability and when the time comes to negotiate with the loan company for the continuance of interest only repayments.
Many thanks again to all who took the trouble to respond in such a meaningful and helpful way.


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## jambo.ie (10 Dec 2009)

*Re: handing keys back*



heidelberg said:


> I also told her the price of the house will surely go back up to as near as dammit to the original price in 12/18 years time when she could have it sold then and come clean out of it.


A 'break-even' on purchase price will not cover her costs. She will have paid mortgage interest over the 12 to 18 years. She needs prices to exceed the bubble prices by 50% or more for such a scenario to work out. _Edit: I forgot to mention the opportunity costs of having her capital tied up in this loss making investment versus keeping the funds on deposit earning interest or employed elsewhere._


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## heidelberg (11 Dec 2009)

Good point 'jambo'.
Listening to Bill Cullen (The Apprentice man) yesterday Thursday on Matt Cooper's show on to-day fm he said when asked his opinion on the reduction to 100 Euro for those aged 19/20 who are on the dole he said the young people have been 'molly coddled' for too long.
I agree with him because I was falling into the same 'trap' as can be seen above from my earlier posts.


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## Ian (12 Dec 2009)

heidelberg said:


> Good point 'jambo'.
> Listening to Bill Cullen (The Apprentice man) yesterday Thursday on Matt Cooper's show on to-day fm he said when asked his opinion on the reduction to 100 Euro for those aged 19/20 who are on the dole he said the young people have been 'molly coddled' for too long.
> I agree with him because I was falling into the same 'trap' as can be seen above from my earlier posts.


 

Yes , Bill must long for the days when his family could exploit the poor .


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## Mr. C.J.H. (12 Dec 2009)

I don't expect you to confirm OP, but I'm guessing she's probably in one of; US, Aus, Can or NZ.. If the banks chose to enforce the debt and track her down (not necessarily as hard as one would think either) then they could pursue her in that country. Whether they would bother, I don't know and I don't think anybody can advise definitely either. 

By the way, this would be a civil matter so there would be no implications for setting foot back in Ireland i.e. she couldn't be arrested or anything. Now getting a bank account or loan again would be a problem, also there could be issues if she were to inherit anything in this jurisdiction as it may be possible for the bank to chase that.


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## MOB (13 Dec 2009)

I had cause to issue debt collection proceedings against an Australian citizen who had moved back to that country.  It was only about €4k, but the debtor had the money and ( worse) had managed to annoy both me and my client;  So we pursued him.

It was not at all that difficult to track down an address in Australia; I accept of course that this will not always be the case.  But in an era of Facebook\Google\Bebo\Hotmail\ etc. nobody who is connected to the internet as part of their normal daily life should regard themselves as somehow 'out of reach'.

Once you have an address, the extra paperwork in serving proceedings abroad ( and I assume in enforcing them - my debtor paid up so I can't tell you for sure) is not that terribly onerous.

Perhaps if the OP's daughter is in Somalia.............


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## mercman (13 Dec 2009)

Ian said:


> Yes , Bill must long for the days when his family could exploit the poor .



What a pathetic jealous post. I would love to see 'Ian' the poster do as well as Bill Cullen. And if he hasn't and doesn't, he is best keeping his personal thoughts well zipped. Honestly the ignorance of such a statement.


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## Ian (14 Dec 2009)

mercman said:


> What a pathetic jealous post. I would love to see 'Ian' the poster do as well as Bill Cullen. And if he hasn't and doesn't, he is best keeping his personal thoughts well zipped. Honestly the ignorance of such a statement.


 

My family lived next door to Bill Cullen when he was a child .  Mrs Darcy was a small time money lender .


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## mercman (14 Dec 2009)

And the small time money lenders served their purpose. In the main I am not a fan of money lenders, but they did and still do provide a service to those that are not fortunate to have money.


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## Ian (14 Dec 2009)

mercman said:


> And the small time money lenders served their purpose. In the main I am not a fan of money lenders, but they did and still do provide a service to those that are not fortunate to have money.


 

I find it very hard to believe that a ' frequent poster ' on Ask  About Money would post that . Please stay away from the ' money makeover ' section with a view like that .


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## Bronte (14 Dec 2009)

Ian said:


> My family lived next door to Bill Cullen when he was a child . Mrs Darcy was a small time money lender .


 

You lived next door to Bill Cullen and ?

Who is Mrs Darcy?


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## Ian (14 Dec 2009)

I' ve taken this post about as far off topic as it can get already . Read the book . Mrs Darcy was the Granny .


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## Bronte (14 Dec 2009)

I presume you refer to 'It's a long way from penny apples' (not exactly sure of title) but is Mrs Darcy Cullen's grandmother and was she a money lender? Did she explit the poor? What has that to do with Bill Cullen?


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