# Can I refuse to pay year 2 apartment service charge?



## Lyndan (29 Mar 2006)

Hey Guys

I would really apprecaite the help with this issue i am having.

I moved into an apartment in May of last year, i paid €1,400 for mnt which is fine.  Our property developer formed the management company and then hired a 3rd party to run the complex for him....i presume he was on the take as a director of the company...anyway the 3rd party guy left after 9 months, couldnt handle it, said the developer guy was an <expletive deleted>! so since Jan 31st we have been getting nothing done in the complex...our gates are broken, the common areas are filthy, intercoms are broken, the grounds are in a mess, rubbish everywhere...

Now this guy is going to come to us in May and ask for our service charge, and i am so annoyed that i will be handing over another €1,400 when i feel like i paid last years for nothing.

He is in the process of nominating a new property development company, he said he will have one sorted by April.  He knows about all the problems and has quoted bad weather, no money in kitty as reasons why he isnt doing anything,

I really dont want this guy to get away with shafting us...can i do anything?

Cheers


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## tallpaul (29 Mar 2006)

Personally I would not pay it but you may not have a choice. Have you signed a contract agreeing to pay a maintenance fee??

If not, I would draw up a list of issues which need to be rectified in your complex/estate. Once these are agreed and then completed, I would hand over the fee. It might suit to get a few neighbours together to emphasise the point.

IMO management fees now seem to be a nice little retainer for builder/developers or their relations when they are long gone. A new form of ground rent if you like...


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## Humpback (29 Mar 2006)

Technically, you probably can't refuse to pay as it's most likely included in the conditions of purchase of the apartment originally.

However, you can slow things down and delay, on the basis of making sure that you're getting what you paid for so far with your management fee.

Ask to see the accounts of the management company. Check to see if there is "money in the kitty".

If you're not getting all the services that were offered originally, you can chase them to find out why. Seek reductions based on the fact that they're not providing the service.


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## Sherman (29 Mar 2006)

I read an article recently about the residents of the Tramyards apartments in Inchicore, and how they sacked their management company and formed their own.

Take a look at their website at [broken link removed] - I'm sure if you emailed them they'd be happy to give you some advice as regards sacking the management agent and either setting up your own one or appointing a different company.


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## ZEGAR (29 Mar 2006)

Gerry ryan talking about it all day


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## TheBlock (29 Mar 2006)

I believe you can refuse to pay the fee but when/If you decide to sell the outstanding amount has to be discharged from the sale proceeds by your solicitor.....


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## CCOVICH (29 Mar 2006)

Sherman said:
			
		

> I read an article recently about the residents of the Tramyards apartments in Inchicore, and how they sacked their management company and formed their own.
> 
> Take a look at their website at [broken link removed] - I'm sure if you emailed them they'd be happy to give you some advice as regards sacking the management agent and either setting up your own one or appointing a different company.


 
I think that the problem here is that the builder still has de facto control of the management company and hence the development.  Thus it is the developer who decides who to appoint as managing agent etc.

Definitely get accounts and attempt to substantiate the claim that there is no money in the kitty.  This could actually be the case if other owners are not paying their management fees.


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## Lyndan (29 Mar 2006)

yep we think the developer owns 7 apartments in the complex and we have been told by the ex management agent that he hasnt paid any money yet.  When we asked him he said ' i havent drawn down on them yet' basically he is getting them all done up first, getting his renters in and then he will 'draw down' and start paying

its bad but i wish i didnt move into an apartment!


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## ftb2 (29 Mar 2006)

Legally speaking, it is the residents who are the main shareholders in the estate, so you have the power to hire/fire whatever management company is in place and form your own.

It would be a good thing to meet up with some other owner-occupiers and discuss this and then you must hold an official agm where the new mgt company is made redundant and new management company - an agency of your choice - is brought in to do the same job. By doing this, it is easier to keep management fees costs down and if you appoint a resident as treasurer, or have someone keep account of finances, you will be better able to keep the fees as low as is possible.


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## CCOVICH (29 Mar 2006)

ftb2 said:
			
		

> Legally speaking, it is the residents who are the main shareholders in the estate, so you have the power to hire/fire whatever management company is in place and form your own.


 
As far as I am aware, this is incorrect (until the developer has handed over to the owners).

Our management company (of which I am a director) received independent legal advice on this issue recently, and the developer has the right to retain the control of the development/management company until such time as all units are sold.

This is the problem in this case-not all units have yet been sold, and so the residents would appear to be powerless to take action at this stage.


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## Lyndan (29 Mar 2006)

yep thats right, all the apartments arent sold yet so developer is still going to be involved.

We have sent numerous mails, his phone is always off.   He knows what our problems are and he doesnt give a sh*t becuase people like him get away with it

It makes my blood boil


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## Lorz (29 Mar 2006)

From past experience I wouldn't get involved in the new Mgmnt co.  It's far too much hassle unless you have plenty of time on your hands to be chasing owners for payments of fees, calling suppliers for quotes, chasing refuse co's/cleaners, dealing with problem residents etc, etc.  If at all possible I would hire a professional, reputable Mgmnt Co. when all owners have paid their fees (incl builder)


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## CCOVICH (29 Mar 2006)

Getting back to your original question-unless you are getting something for your annual fee, should you pay?  Probably not, I can't see how this is any different from any other service.  The problem is, if you don't pay, the developer would appear to have an excellent excuse not to provide necessary services, i.e. no money.  So it is a vicious circle.  

Is the option of a Small Claims Court claim be open to you?  It's worth getting in touch with the ODCA to see if you have any rights in this regard.  Separately, what does your leasehold agreement say on the subject of maintenance etc?  It may well be worth a number of you getting together and taking independent legal advice on the matter, to see exactly what your rights are and what avenues are open to you with regard to getting satisfaction on this issue.

Re. the gates issue-we have had the same ourselves, but they are under warranty and it is the company who installed them that is responsible for their initial maintenance.  But that company will probably only deal with the developer or their agent, not individual owners.

You have my sympathy-our builder was far from perfect and we have had our share of problems, but I have to say that I have been very impressed with our managing agent.


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## Lyndan (29 Mar 2006)

thanks CCOVICH ill look into those options.

I suppose its all teething problems really.  I know they are coming up with legislation for Management Companys etc cos its evident whats going on with them, anyway in the meantime we will fight our corner and see where it gets us.

i cant wait to get a house! hehe


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## RainyDay (29 Mar 2006)

Lyndan said:
			
		

> thanks CCOVICH ill look into those options.
> 
> I suppose its all teething problems really.  I know they are coming up with legislation for Management Companys etc cos its evident whats going on with them, anyway in the meantime we will fight our corner and see where it gets us.
> 
> i cant wait to get a house! hehe


Don't hold your breath. The Govt rejected a Labour amendment to the Planning & Development Act 2000 which attempted to get the situation under control. I'm not aware of any imminent Govt plans to address the issue. Don't assume that getting a house will solve the problem. Many housing estates are also set up with management companies, which allows local authorities to avoid their obligations to provide basic services.


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## sydney73 (12 Oct 2006)

CCOVICH said:


> but I have to say that I have been very impressed with our managing agent.


 
Hi CCOVICH,

Are estate are also having problems with ouir management company, and a number of us are interested in removing them and employing another.  If you are impressed with your management company, could you please provide their name ?  as I would be interested in talking to them


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