# Tanager seeking repossession although I am meeting current payments in full and reducing old arrears



## vicvol1 (18 Jun 2017)

Hi. Tanager has issued me with a letter saying that after my SFS, they deem that I am unable to pay my arrears of €30,000. They can offer no alternative repayment arrangement at this time and will be instructing their solicitor in obtaining a recovery date.

My mortgage is €190,000.

For over the last two years I have been paying my mortgage plus €300 a month at a total of €1100 a month. This was the arrangement I made two years ago with them after I got back to work and was able to make my payments. 

Tanager has also offered me a discount which I will take up if I can find a lender to take on my mortgage. I haven't heard if there are lenders who would consider this. If I did get a new lender, I would finally be out of the red. 

I am at my wits end with all this and would be great full if anyone can offer me some advice. Thank you.


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## Brendan Burgess (18 Jun 2017)

You need to provide the following information to get a meaningful answer: 

* Information required for mortgage arrears and negative equity questions*


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## vicvol1 (18 Jun 2017)

*Thank you for getting back to me 

Income details
Net monthly 2,100 a month. Full time employment. I was unemployed and began making full mortage payments, €800 with €300 for the arrears when I started working. I was unemployed for over two years. Have been making full payments for over two years. 
Net monthly Single/no dependents.*

*Personal circumstances so we can calculate your reasonable living expenses.
I explained to Tanager that I don't have a car anymore to make a saving. I use public transport. I have cut back on my expenses to pay the arrears and am willing to pay an extra €100 a month on my arrears which would be €400 a month. I don't have a credit card anymore and have no loans/debts. *




*Home loan*
Lender: Tanager
Amount outstanding: €190,000
Value of home: €150,000
Interest rate: Tracker
Monthly repayment €800
Amount in arrears €30,000

Summary of discussions and agreements with the banke.g. In June 2015, began payments. Tanager agreed with the full mortgage payment of €800 and €300 arrears. Then this May I had a review and they said that I couldn't pay my arrears.

*Investment property - *Delete if not applicable
Lender:
None

*Credit Union *
None

*Other loans and creditors 
None*


*Other savings and investments 
Saving 75 a month with the credit union

Do you expect any lump sums in the medium term future?
No


How important is retaining the family home to you? *
Which of the following best describes your situation?

It's my home. I want to keep it. I have gone to great lengths to get myself back on track and after all the stress I have had, I would like to keep my house.




*Any other relevant information

What is your preferred realistic outcome?
If I could get another lender to take my mortage I would in order to get the discount Tanager have offered. That way I could keep my house and be out of the red. *


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## Brendan Burgess (18 Jun 2017)

Hi Viv 

Why on earth are you saving with the credit union? 

Pay that off your mortgage as well. 

As a single person with no dependants, you don't need mortgage protection, so cancel that. 

Tanager has no chance at all of getting an order for possession any time in the next 5 years, unless the policy of the courts change. 

So continue as you are paying what you can. 

You should use the Internal Appeals System and ask them to capitalise the arrears as you have been making full repayments for the last two years. 

One of the arguments you could use is that if they capitalise the arrears, then your mortgage will be performing and you will have a better chance of refinancing it after two or three years. While you have arrears outstanding, you have no chance of refinancing. 

You should get contact Abhaile who will probably make representations on your behalf. 

Brendan


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## vicvol1 (18 Jun 2017)

Thanks Brendan. Appreciate the advice.will increase my payments from next month. Will check out Abhaile.


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## Open air (18 Jun 2017)

Hey vivcol1.Im up in court with tanager next month.They are horrible to deal with and id say are really looking to high tail it out of ireland.I have been told that they have a serious issue with enforcing their security over the mortgages they took on from Bosi.The loans were transferred after bosi ceased to exist,,,so its very messy for them.You are entitled to savings for a rainy day,,any pip or abhaile scheme will tell you that.They will be laughed out the door of the court with the scenario you have explained here.Well done on getting back on track.


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## Brendan Burgess (19 Jun 2017)

Vic

I would strongly recommend against challenging Tanager's right to enforce its mortgage with spurious legal arguments. Your approach is much better. Pay what you can and see what happens.  If you have had about 5 adjournments and the lender makes a serious attempt to apply for an order, you could then pull this argument out of the hat. It might get you a short delay.

I have seen idiots in the Registrar's Court raising Freeman type objections, and the Registrar just sends it to the Judge, where the list is shorter and quicker and the Judge puts up with no messing at all. It is one sure way of speeding up the repossession of your home.

Of course, if in the meantime, Open air or anyone else gets a High Court ruling that Tanager cannot apply for orders for possession, then by all means use that. But by then, Tanager and the Registrar will know that and the case will either not be initiated, or if it is initiated, it will be struck out.


Brendan


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## newtothis (19 Jun 2017)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Vic
> 
> I would strongly recommend against challenging Tanager's right to enforce its mortgage with spurious legal arguments.



I'd agree with this. More to the point, you don't have to rely on anything like that. If they do try and start to repossess they would literally be laughed out of court, and they know it (unless they’re too stupid to realise, which is quite possible). If I were you I’d write back to them to say you’d welcome an opportunity to set out your case in court and to hear their explanation why they refuse to offer you an ARA to recapitalise the arrears.

A few other points:

-  Well done on getting back on track! This is a huge achievement on your part and a great credit to you. It’s one thing to go out and get another job, it’s completely different when you have the stress of unemployment and the threat of losing your home hanging over you, especially when it’s the likes of Tanager you’re dealing with.

-  It’s almost certainly the case that Tanager have failed to meet all their obligations under the Central Bank’s MARP: no harm in documenting these and letting them know.

-  Related to that, try and keep accurate records of all communication with them, to create a paper trail to show you’ve done everything you can (and as I say, almost certainly that they haven’t).

-  Pay as much as you can afford over the repayment amount to chip away at the arrears, but don’t leave yourself short in other areas. Personally, I'd stick with what you're currently paying and say you will only contemplate paying more if they come up with an ARA that includes recapitalisting the arrears (any normal bank would do this). However, that does obviously push out the day when they will be cleared.

-  You are in something of a catch-22 in that you won’t be able to refinance with the arrears in place and Tanager are very unlikely to recapitalise them. This may change though, so the best option is to keep doing what you are doing.

-  I know it’s difficult to do this, but try not to worry! It’s inconceivable you’d lose your home in your present circumstance.


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## Open air (19 Jun 2017)

Your right brendan its not a thing to bring up in registrars court,but i think you will find its not a freeman theory.The way the loans were transferred was incorrect,thats a fact,judge jaqueline linnane struck out a case on this precise argument in the past few months.From what im being told its not that easy for tanager to rectify,and im also hearing that the solicitor firm that handled these transfers has since closed to avoid being sued over the blunder.They also illegally collected money in this country for approx 16 months without the correct licence,,i have a letter from the central bank that states this.I think it proves from this man's story above that tanager have no interest in abiding by any rules,where arrears are involved they want to repossess and sell.I have also broken my back to get back on track,one week they ring you to tell they will knock 60,000 of your mortgage if you can get re-financed,the next a civil bill appears in the door.Despicable bunch if im quite honest about it.


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## vicvol1 (19 Jun 2017)

Well, it's for sure that I will not be eligible for the discount because of my arrears. There is no lender who would take it on. So, if you can't get a new lender, you can't get the discount. 

In my appeal I will ask if they would capitalise my arrears or extend my mortgage so that I can clear my arrears. If they refuse, then, the only option is the courts.

I'm at my wits end but have lived like this for over a few years now. I'm paying my mortgage and arrears and will continue to do so.

Thank you all for your replies, it helps to know that others are in the same boat.


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## Browner (19 Jun 2017)

Seems like Tanager are pushing buttons big time. I'm paying my full mortgage for the last 14 months and they are bringing me to court. Will not meet me to discuss arrears. 
How are they getting away with putting this pressure on people.


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## Open air (19 Jun 2017)

Bully boys lads,thats what they are.How much are your arrears browner,,mine stand at €22000


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## Browner (19 Jun 2017)

40k,
Paying them full for last 13 months and asked to meet them to discuss paying arrears and they won't meet. 
They just want to go to court.


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## Brendan Burgess (19 Jun 2017)

Poster newtothis has a lot of good advice there. 

Keep a written note of every phone call you make and every effort you make. 

Seek meetings and if they refuse to meet you , follow up with a written note. 

This will  look terrible for them in court. That you sought a meeting and that they refused. 

I think it would also be a good idea to put a written proposal to them along the following lines

Dear Tanager 

I have requested a meeting on 6/March and again on 8/4. You refused. 

You offered me a discount of €60k if I were to switch to another lender. I have been refused by other lenders due to my credit record. ( It's probably worth getting a letter from a broker to say this or a direct refusal from a bank. Try Pepper, if they refuse you, so will everyone else.) 

I now request that you capitalise the arrears on my account. 

By not capitalising my arrears you are condemning me to be in arrears for some years to come. This prevents me from refinancing the mortgage. 

My mortgage is €160k + €30k arrears. 

If you capitalise the arrears , the repayments on my loan over 20 years will be €900 a month. ( I am making up these figures.) 

I have shown that I can meet this repayment for the past two years. 

The sooner you do this the better. By doing so, my loan will no longer be in default and my credit record will begin to repair. After a year or two of having a repaired credit record, I should be able to refinance to another lender. 

YS."


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## Jpatrick (19 Jun 2017)

Tanager actual words to me by telephone conversation." For legal reasons we can not advice where to look for mortgage but I recommend a company opposite to salt" . I contacted Pepper and refused my application due to my arrears.Pepper very kindly sent me a letter for my records.


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## Open air (19 Jun 2017)

Ha they said to same to me Jpatrick,,, " it's a type of vegetable". You couldnt make some of this up!!


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## vicvol1 (19 Jun 2017)

Is it because they want out of Ireland that they are determined to go to court? Are they confident enough to think they have a chance of repossession? What happens if the court does not grant them a repossession order? Will they then start to discuss capitalizing arrears or offer solutions that actually work. I wonder if anyone was able to take the discount, surely they knew that no lender would take on the mortgages. If Pepper gives you a no, then that's that! Guess it's going to be the courts then but I'm still a bit unsure how they think they have a case when we're being paying the mortage and arrrears for the time we have...


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## Jpatrick (19 Jun 2017)

It looks like we all have a good case against Tanager. After months of stress and worry I finally have got my strength back to fight these vultures!!! We have done everything to work with them, they will be laughed out of court!!!


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## newtothis (19 Jun 2017)

vicvol1 said:


> Is it because they want out of Ireland that they are determined to go to court? Are they confident enough to think they have a chance of repossession? What happens if the court does not grant them a repossession order? Will they then start to discuss capitalizing arrears or offer solutions that actually work. I wonder if anyone was able to take the discount, surely they knew that no lender would take on the mortgages. If Pepper gives you a no, then that's that! Guess it's going to be the courts then but I'm still a bit unsure how they think they have a case when we're being paying the mortage and arrrears for the time we have...



From the tone of this, and your statement above that you're at your wits end - and this is completely understandable - you are stressing way too much: you really do have nothing to worry about. Think about it: you owe money secured on an asset. The people you owe money go to court and say what exactly? They’d like to repossess because you’re not paying what you owe back? BUT YOU ARE! Because there’s an outstanding arears? YOU’RE PAYING THAT TOO! Because you are not “dealing with” the arrears? THEY’RE REFUSING TO MEET WITH YOU! Believe me, you could sell tickets to what would happen next: I’d certainly pay to see and hear the kind of response they’d get from a judge to that. Being laughed out of court doesn’t come close to describing it.

The most important thing you should do is keep doing what you are: paying the mortgage amount, plus some extra to chip away at the arrears. The only other thing is to create a paper trail of how much you are trying to do the right thing, and how much they are doing the wrong thing. Hopefully, you’ll never actually have to use it, but if you do it will strengthen your credibility compared to theirs.

I know it’s easy to say “don’t worry” and hard to follow the advice, but please try: the stress involved is not worth it.

You ask why are they threatening court action? Good question! My best guess is to frighten you to getting cash from somewhere (relatives, maybe?) to pay them off, or to throw in the towel and sell up. Who knows, though. They are absolutely not interested in helping you come to any solution, so unfortunately almost certainly won’t offer any solution other than one that gives them as much cash up front as possible, and in particular won't offer to extend the term, recapitalise arrears or indeed anything that would actually solve the problem for both of you.

Although in my case I'm dealing with Cerberus rather than Tanager, it all sounds very familiar. I was told by them in a meeting that they planned to leave within two years, either having reach "settlements" or after selling the loan on to someone else (the mind boggles what they'd be like). Mind you, they do tell flat out lies to your face: they said they bought and sold loans and had no interest in dealing with the underlying asset. I know for a fact they told someone else in the same circumstance that the only thing they were interested in was the asset: pure lies to one of us. 

I wouldn't underestimate their incompetence either, so perhaps that's part of an explanation.

.


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## Jpatrick (19 Jun 2017)

Had meeting with PIP two weeks ago with IMAO. Lasted no longer than 5 mins. He kept going on about getting money from relatives. I heard nothing back since.


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## Brendan Burgess (19 Jun 2017)

newtothis said:


> I know for a fact they told someone else in the same circumstance that the only thing they were interested in was the asset: pure lies to one of us.



It is very unlikely that they said that to anyone. I think that your friend misunderstood.  They can't do anything with the asset except sell it. 

Brendan


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## vicvol1 (19 Jun 2017)

I tell you that I am not as stressed as I was before my first post. I wonder how many others are in the same situation and don't have anyone to talk to? It's great to see the optimism and determination that you all have. We will get through this!


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## Open air (19 Jun 2017)

Ill tell ye one guys. I pay €120 per week direct debit which ammounts to €520 per month over a 52 week period.one of the admin girls rang me one day and says im only paying €480 per month.I disputed this but she said thats not the way we calculate our payments.The following week i get another call,the girl says your paying a loan of €120 per week which is €520 per month,we have to know what this loan is for?.So i replied and said thats your mortgage payment,,,,,oh she said we didnt realise,,,,,,idiots!


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## newtothis (19 Jun 2017)

Brendan Burgess said:


> It is very unlikely that they said that to anyone. I think that your friend misunderstood.  They can't do anything with the asset except sell it.
> 
> Brendan



Exactly - the interest is in selling it: I should have said the interest was in "the value of the asset". The essence of the conversation reported to me was that they weren't interested in doing deals, there was an underlying asset and the person involved could do it the easy way (voluntary surrender) or the hard way, but either way they would get it. The circumstances were different (the people involved couldn't afford full payments), but what was striking to me was that it completely contradicted what I was told by the same people. We were told they weren't interested in anything other than buying and selling loans and had no interest in repossession. I actually don’t care which is correct: my take away was that you can’t trust anything they say.
.


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## newtothis (20 Jun 2017)

vicvol1 said:


> I tell you that I am not as stressed as I was before my first post. I wonder how many others are in the same situation and don't have anyone to talk to? It's great to see the optimism and determination that you all have. We will get through this!



I'm glad it's been of help in reducing stress levels. What I find really disturbing is in how people can cope if they are not used to dealing with situations like this. I've 20+ years’ experience in business, including dealing with banks and negotiating deals of various kinds, and I've found it very stressful. Mind you, in the early stages that experience was a mixed blessing: I kept trying to treat the situation as with any other business situation I've encountered. It took quite a while before it sank in with me just how incompetent and sometimes bizarre the behaviour of the banks is in handling this (bizarre in that they frequently don't seem to behave in their own best interest). Add to this the downright dishonesty and lies (I don't use these terms lightly) and it makes for a challenging situation. I can well believe it would be devastating to anyone in the slightest bit vulnerable. I'm well on the way out the other side now and have luckily not had to attend any courts, but to be honest I would actually have welcomed the opportunity to have some 3rd party take a look. It's safe to say that judging by the reports from the courts described on this site a more than fair hearing is given to anyone who engages and tries to do the right thing.


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## vicvol1 (21 Jun 2017)

It would be worth noting that if you are in contact with looking for advice from a pip, financial advisor, another lender etc., that you ask them for confirmation that you are able to pay your mortgage/arrears. This would be good to take to court if needed.


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## Brendan Burgess (21 Jun 2017)

Hi Vic 

Good idea.

Here are potential interpretations of your situation 

1) You are solvent in that you are meeting your repayments as they fall due. 
2) You are insolvent because you are unable to clear the arrears in full today 
3) You are insolvent because your mortgage is worth more than the value of your assets. 
4) Tanager will argue that you are solvent because if you sell your home and give them the proceeds, they will write off the shortfall. 

I would imagine that a PIP would tell you that you are so close to solvency that you should not go for a PIA. 

But it would be useful to get a letter from the PIP along the following lines: 

"Dear Vic

Having studied your figures, it's clear to me that you are not insolvent and that your mortgage is sustainable. It's also clear to me that you have been making every effort to pay your mortgage and have been gradually clearing the arrears.

I would recommend that you ask Tanager to capitalise the arrears and extend the term, so that your mortgage is sustainable

This is a far better solution for both the lender and the borrower than a PIA. "

The Court Registrar or Judge would be impressed by that and would ask Tanager why they did not follow that suggestion.


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## Open air (22 Jun 2017)

Just been informed by lapithus that because i am not making full payments, currently paying €120 per week,should be €150 per week,i dont qualify for any of their debt restructuring tools.Cannot capitalise arrears,cannot extend term,no debt forgiveness.My current balance is 185,000,i said i had spoken to a pip and we was proposing to write €120,000 off the loanThe agent on the phone said "personal insolvency is a drastic measure" i replied " is it as drastic as losing your home".I mean you cannot win with these people


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## vicvol1 (31 Jul 2017)

Well, it seems that due to the increase in property value in this last year alone, my property value is on par with my total debt. This is the first time since 2008 that I'm finally in the green, equity wise. 
Does this strengthen my position as i continue to make full mortgage payments, address arrears, and have positive equity? 
Does the fact that I'm borderline solvent work for me or against? I think that this may be why they are adamant to not negotiate and get me in court... I hate going on about it but no sooner than I figure it out, something else comes up. Mind you, I'm glad to be in positive equity, a bit of a boost.


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## Brendan Burgess (31 Jul 2017)

Hi Vic

From their point of view, it doesn't make that much difference. ( A lot of commentators talk rubbish about banks waiting for houses to move into positive equity and then they move. But there is no evidence of that.) 

From the court's point of view, it doesn't make that much difference either.  If you are engaging and making your payments, and don't try to pull a legal trick on them, the court won't grant an order against you.

From your point of view, obviously it does matter. 

1) if Tanager offer you a deal to settle the mortgage for 80% of its nominal value, you might be able to remortgage.  (Very unlikely though if you still have arrears.) 
2) If they offer you a deal, you could sell the house to avail of it and be left with cash in your pocket. 
3) You won't be able to avail of a PIA as the loan could not be written down below the market value of the house. (Likewise bankruptcy is probably out for you as well.) 
4) In talking to the Registrar or the Court, you can make the additional argument that you have reduced the potential loss faced by Tanager as the property is in positive equity. 

Brendan


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## Jim Stafford (1 Aug 2017)

The first port of call for anyone facing re-possession proceedings or the appointment of  a receiver is a Personal Insolvency Practitioner.

Just go to the Insolvency Service of Ireland for further guidance.  There is a possibility of a PIA achieving a substantial write down in your mortgage.

Jim Stafford


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## Rambo1 (1 Aug 2017)

Brendan, 

From what Vicvol1 has told us re her/his case it's highly unlikely that any judge would grant Tanager a possession order! In regards to pulling any legal trick ? It's not about pulling any legal tricks! Surely its better to make yourself aware of any possible legal point as to which you can question the very legalities of any point put forward by tanager and this includes their paperwork which they have presented to the court. 

Remember the courts are there for both sides despite what the banks and vulture funds think and all solicitor s have a duty of care to the court etc..however quite a number seem to conveniently forget that. 

Furthermore Tanager bought whatever they bought for a discount of 60/80%, so why not negotiate from there?


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## vicvol1 (5 Aug 2017)

Let me just say this, they are ruthless, and will do anything to get your property. And I mean anything. If you are receiving letters giving you a court date, then get bloody prepared for what’s to come. Do not wait around thinking that it will be ‘alright’. Get a PIP, PIA. Doesn’t matter how good or bad they are, get one, and I would strongly suggest you set up a meeting with a solicitor to ask about the ‘what ifs’. Please do this! Act now, prepare for all the possible outcomes, make sure all your paperwork is accurate and tight. Know that you will be in court for a number of sittings, that Tanager is throwing everything they can to win a repossession order. if you know nothing about the court system, or have no knowledge on how it works, start educating yourself. The idea that somehow Tanager is ‘not able’ ‘doesn’t have a chane’ Etc is beside the point. Get prepared, do the work, don’t give in when everything is falling down around you. Please, all of you who have dealings with these animals, take my cents worth. Go and seek legal advice from a solicitor. Be prepared. And to Tanager who I know trolls this forum.... I’m coming to get you!


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## Open air (6 Aug 2017)

Sorry if i sounded a bit militant there!.But i stand by what i say,,people standing as a group are stronger than one on their own.Highlighting their behaviour and having there name mentioned more and more in public newspapers and forums will make it harder for them to continue what they are doing.


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