# Home Offices - Planning Permission and Commercial Rates



## onq (10 Dec 2009)

We practice from a Home Office.
This originally arose as a result of hugely increased journey times from our previous home in County Wicklow.
Shortly after we bought our current house we received a letter from our new local authority querying whether we had an office use permitted at our address.

Naturally enough we panicked a little, with vast imaginings of people who resented our past successes coming home to roost - not a bit of it.
Turned out we had informed all the local authorities where we do business of our change of address, including our own - they were just following up diligently.
We approached the Planning Department and were briefed on how to make the relevant arguments in our planning application which we did and duly received permission.

Separately we also registered to pay rates and had the Inspector out to put a rateable valuation on our property.
We approached the Rates Office ourselves, there was no following on from the Planning Department as a matter of course.

Apparently there is no co-ordination between the Companies Registration Office, the Local Authority Planning Department and the Rates Office at all.
The question that pops into our minds every so often is - how many people are using home offices who have no permission for such a use and who do not pay rates?
It would be a relatively simple matter to check the registered business address against a permission at the same address, but perhaps this would seem like too much of a witch hunt.
Still in these difficult times where the Government is looking to obtain every cent they can get their hands on, the contrary argument is that people should make the effort and pay their dues.

FWIW

ONQ.

[broken link removed]


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## Towger (10 Dec 2009)

Often the registered address is not where the business is run from or is the accountants.


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## Sconhome (10 Dec 2009)

This will lead to an interesting debate about the definition of home office and the commercial purposes of the office.

There is no ambiguity about what constitutes an office or a registered business or a commercial enterprise. For example if someone is operating a shop or salon from their front room, that's a commercial enterprise and clearly should be subject to all rates, service and water charges applicable to a business premises ( and planning).

What if someone has their business registered to their home address, for convenience of post, billing etc but conducts their commercial interests off site? (I'm not tailoring a get out cause for myself) For example, an IT contractor conducting business in various locations, but administering their business from a computer in the back bedroom? 

In my case we had a commercial premises where we located the office with a workshop etc. Due to the usual, we downsized and pulled the 'office' back to the spare bedroom, a desk in the corner where I can complete tenders and file accounts. There is a separate storage premises in a correctly planned and permitted development for the storage element of the business, but this is not suitable for office. Any client work is done in the client's home or business premises.

Where is the line dividing a commercial business office from someone working from home? I would consider myself as bringing work home to complete, much the same as an employee working flexi-time from home. Should these arrangements be rated and planning required etc?

The whole work / life balance has led to many people choosing to work from home or run a business from home in order to enjoy growing families, cut back on childcare costs, be in control of your health & working time to suit lifestyle. It would be a cruel blow to now go around redefining peoples homes and subjecting them to further taxation and rates.

A lot of grey areas to do with definitions and interpretation.


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## Towger (10 Dec 2009)

Sconhome, I know of a builder who had a run in with Revenue over the very same problem. He has his 'home office' in a bed room to handle his paperwork and the company van lived in the front drive during the night, while all other work was off site. I can't remember the final outcome, but the official from Revenue who was dealing with the case rang him at home during the evening and when the builder asked him were he was calling from he said from this house. They then had an argument as to what was the difference between a builder doing accounts at home and a Revenue employee also working from home.... I think the end result was Revenue dropped the case.


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## onq (10 Dec 2009)

As I understand it, the position appears to be [I'll stop dancing around it in a minute] that if you have a main office which is registered as your business address and you ALSO work from home occassionally - that's alright. You're paying rates on a business premises and the Revenue don't get two bites at the cherry, the cherry being your business.

However, the matter is totally different for persons who work out of the back of a van or wander down to the People's Park hotspot to do their written work. For them there must be a business address and/or and address to which their mail is sent, usually linked to a land line where they can be contacted or faxed. Whether or not this is their registered business address is another matter, because if it isn't it should be.

Addressess of convenience arise where the person's solicitors office is given because this was the done thing when setting up a business - but such addresses have no place in the running of the business and require to be weeded out, just as businesses run solely from the backs of vans on mobile phones need to be nailed to some fixed address for VAT Rates and Tax purposes.

It seems to me that its very convenient for such people to bleat about how little tax high earners pay while all the time they are not paying their dues to the state and making the burden harder for the rest of us to bear. This sentiment in the face of the current budget and the pending one is what prompted me to start this thread.

FWIW

ONQ.


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## onq (10 Dec 2009)

Towger said:


> Sconhome, I know of a builder who had a run in with Revenue over the very same problem. He has his 'home office' in a bed room to handle his paperwork and the company van lived in the front drive during the night, while all other work was off site. I can't remember the final outcome, but the official from Revenue who was dealing with the case rang him at home during the evening and when the builder asked him were he was calling from he said from this house. They then had an argument as to what was the difference between a builder doing accounts at home and a Revenue employee also working from home.... I think the end result was Revenue dropped the case.



I understand the position but I think that resolution is a disgrace. The Revenue official has a base office during the day and was doing some home office work at night. No problem. The base office pays the rates.
The builder if I understand you correctly, has no other office than his bedroom and that is the basis on which he should be paying rates.
Builders don't pay rates on their site offices BTW.

The amount due annually for using a small room or area within a room or kitchen to do this work is in the hundreds not thousand of Euro.
The Revenue and Rates people need to work together to take these amounts from businesses instead of reducing social welfare for needy families or bottom of the rung civil servants on contract work, but who - get this - pay a pension contribution!

ONQ.


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## onq (10 Dec 2009)

Sconhome said:


> This will lead to an interesting debate about the definition of home office and the commercial purposes of the office.
> <snip>



There is a whole other world of definitions and applicability in another thread on Health and Safety in relation to Seomra's and that thread spawned this one.
You might find threebedsemi's comments there very interesting.

ONQ.


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## mathepac (10 Dec 2009)

onq said:


> ... Apparently there is no co-ordination between the Companies Registration Office, the Local Authority Planning Department and the Rates Office at all...


Interesting, but hardly surprising. I wonder will there be a strike day called for this lack of efficiency, effectiveness, coordination, itegration  and transparency.


onq said:


> ... The Revenue and Rates people need to work together to take these amounts from businesses instead of reducing social welfare for needy families or bottom of the rung civil servants on contract work, but who - get this - pay a pension contribution! ...


Excellent posts, important issues well hight-lighted.


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## onq (10 Dec 2009)

mathepac said:


> Interesting, but hardly surprising. I wonder will there be a strike day called for this lack of efficiency, effectiveness, coordination, itegration  and transparency.
> Excellent posts, important issues well hight-lighted.



Praise from Mathepac is praise indeed.

What can we do to top this boys? 

ONQ.


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## Sconhome (10 Dec 2009)

A section of enterprise Ireland website addresses the idea of a home office:

http://www.enterprise-ireland.com/ebusinesssite/guides/e_works_guide/e_works_guide_p5a.asp
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*What                                        about planning permission and business rates                                        for working at home?

*[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Planning                                        permission is rarely a problem in practice. Some                                        local authorities (for example, Dublin Corporation)                                        are moving towards allowing home-based economic                                        activity within dwelling houses as standard. It                                        is advisable to discuss the issue with council                                        planning departments. The Department                                        of the Environment has stated that:[/FONT]


                                          [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Teleworking/telecommuting                                            (eWorking) from home (either part-time                                            or full-time where all that is involved                                            is a computer terminal) ... it                                            would be difficult to argue that there                                            is any material change of use involved                                            here and accordingly it would not be                                            an issue from a planning point of view;[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Home                                          as an office with staff (several people)                                          and dedicated space ... is quite a different                                          concept and would involve a material change                                          of use and would consequently come within                                          the scope of the planning code.[/FONT]
                                      [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Business                                        rates therefore could apply to home offices                                        in certain circumstances, so it may be useful                                        to seek professional advice.


This bit is mine - 

The hair line appears to be the distinction between an office in the home or a commercial office situated in the home with no other business location. It would have complicating implications for a lot of company reps ( not a busy anymore) who spend their working day on the road and may have a 'home office' to administer accounts, quotes etc and only periodically return to a main head office.

The scale of definition is quite broad in what could constitute a home office and it would probably have to be assessed on a case by case system.

If you are blatantly running a commercial premises with visiting customers from your home then obviously this fact will be picked up or reported. It would appear that a desk, computer, phone and printer in the corner of a bedroom is of little interest to the rates officers / planners etc. (from above report).

On the OP, I have often wondered how the pod system builders were able to pass off the structures as planning exempt for home office use. The majority for domestic use are simply pimped up sheds.
[/FONT]​


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## Sconhome (10 Dec 2009)

Sconhome said:


> [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*On the OP,* I have often wondered how the pod system builders were able to pass off the structures as planning exempt for home office use. The majority for domestic use are simply* pimped up sheds.*
> [/FONT]​



Confusing threads now!!


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## onq (14 Dec 2009)

Sconhome said:


> A section of enterprise Ireland website addresses the idea of a home office:
> 
> http://www.enterprise-ireland.com/ebusinesssite/guides/e_works_guide/e_works_guide_p5a.asp
> [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*What                                        about planning permission and business rates                                        for working at home?
> ...



Enterprise Ireland have a can-do agenda Sconhome, and as such are to be praised for it.
However the gist of their comments are not borne out by our experience.

If you work for a company that pays rates on a premises somewhere, to which you call in/report to occassionally, I don't think there's a issue.
Commercial travellers and the like routinely work from hotspots and hotels with high-speed data facilities sending in their orders and reports, for example.
Companies rountinely hire out venues within which to conduct their statutory duties of holding AGM's EGM's electing directors, etc, and this doesn't attract additional rates.

The need for permission arises when a business is run solely from home.
To suggest that this may not be a material change of use in the same article where they refer to "home-based economic activities" as a separate defined use in Development Plans appears to be self-contradictory feelgood non-sense on the part of Enterprise Ireland.
This would appear to be supporting a mindset that may result in small commercial undertakings collectively witholding a significant sum in revenue from the state each year.
I use the term non-sense to mean "it makes no sense" - a factual, not a derogotary, term.

Local authorities may be moving to recognise this low-impact commercial use by including it as "permitted in principle" under Residential A or A1 Zoning - but you still need to obtain permission.
Otherwise its like driving without a provisional license and that's an offence.

Similarly for the payment of rates - once its a commercial for-profit undertaking you are obliged to pay rates AFAIK.
Otherwise its like driving without tax and that's an offence too.

I don't know how the rates might apply to a registered charity, but I don't think you'll get many in the building profession [for example] registering as one of those.
Still, with the current economic climate, who knows?

ONQ.


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