# What is the going rate for a house cleaner please ?



## MrEarl (1 Apr 2017)

Hello,

What is the hourly rate for a house cleaner in Dublin please ?

It would just be normal household cleaning - approx 2-3 hours per week on a regular basis.

Many thanks,


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## landlord (1 Apr 2017)

I pay 45 for four hours.


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## XMarks (1 Apr 2017)

We pay €15 per hour for 3 hours a week.  €10 -€15 per hour seems to be the norm.


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## Bronte (2 Apr 2017)

You should make it three hours not two. Otherwise it's making it not worth their while.  You'll have a happier cleaner that way.


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## MrEarl (4 Apr 2017)

Bronte said:


> You should make it three hours not two. Otherwise it's making it not worth their while.  You'll have a happier cleaner that way.



While I take your point, there also needs to be a balance between a happy home owner and a happy cleaner... €45 is a lot of money for 3 hours work on a regular basis.  Personally, I think €15 per hour is too much tbh (although I'm very impressed with Landlord getting circa €11 per hour and think thats the cheapest I've heard of in quite a few years).

I have no idea if they are any good or not, but Hassle.com are doing a regular rate of €13.90 per hour and that no doubt includes a commission to whoever runs the website, covers the costs of credit card processing and so on.  Assuming their service is reasonable, then their cleaners are getting notably less than €15 per hour.


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## cremeegg (4 Apr 2017)

I hope you are registering as an employer, deducting paye, psi, use etc. Or have other arrangements to ensure you are tax compliant.


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## MrEarl (4 Apr 2017)

cremeegg said:


> I hope you are registering as an employer, deducting paye, psi, use etc. Or have other arrangements to ensure you are tax compliant.



If that is addressed to me, I never actually said that I was intending to hire a cleaner... I've just been asking about the costs and giving a view on what I thought was expensive etc.


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## T McGibney (4 Apr 2017)

cremeegg said:


> I hope you are registering as an employer, deducting paye, psi, use etc. Or have other arrangements to ensure you are tax compliant.



This is only applicable if an employment situation applies in the first instance.


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## dub_nerd (4 Apr 2017)

T McGibney said:


> This is only applicable if an employment situation applies in the first instance.


And does it? What are the rules governing paying someone for a casual or one-off job, say house cleaning or filling a skip or some such? Let's suppose the person doing the work is not a self-employed tradesperson. Does the person paying for the job automatically become an employer? That would make any such casual arrangement nigh on impossible to do in a strictly legal way.


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## T McGibney (4 Apr 2017)

dub_nerd said:


> And does it? What are the rules governing paying someone for a casual or one-off job, say house cleaning or filling a skip or some such?



The rules, such as they are, are contained in a substantial library of case law and are quite complex and often mutually contradictory.  The application of this body of case law to each individual case is determined by the particular facts of that case. For example, a cleaner may be free to control his/her own hours on a given assignment and may be empowered to subcontract the work or elements of it to third parties without the premises owner's specific consent. An individual in such circumstances is unlikely to fit within the parameters of an employee, as employees are rarely free to come and go as they choose and can rarely if ever nominate a substitute to replace them.


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## Bronte (4 Apr 2017)

MrEarl said:


> While I take your point, there also needs to be a balance between a happy home owner and a happy cleaner... €45 is a lot of money for 3 hours work on a regular basis.  Personally, I think €15 per hour is too much tbh (although I'm very impressed with Landlord getting circa €11 per hour and think thats the cheapest I've heard of in quite a few years).
> 
> I have no idea if they are any good or not, but Hassle.com are doing a regular rate of €13.90 per hour and that no doubt includes a commission to whoever runs the website, covers the costs of credit card processing and so on.  Assuming their service is reasonable, then their cleaners are getting notably less than €15 per hour.



A happy cleaner will do a good job and make the home owner happy.  My view on it is this, if you don't want to mop floors (I don't) and want to come into a clean sparkling house than is 45€ a lot.  Especially in a country where rental costs and food costs are high.  Whatever my cleaner doesn't like doing I never ask for.  (we both hate cleaning windows) It's about a happy medium between the two of you.  The cleaner will also have travelling time to get to your place.  I pay mine the public transport costs on top of the hourly rate.  But I must say it's a lot cleaper than Ireland where anything like this seems to be very costly. 

Landlord is getting the cleaner for a lower rate because of the four hours. You'd be able to get that too if you have a regular cleaner with guaranteed hours.  I'd say four hours is the optimum amount of hours.  Two is too little.


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## Drakon (5 Apr 2017)

dub_nerd said:


> Does the person paying for the job automatically become an employer?


No. There is a difference between an employer and a client.


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## Gordon Gekko (5 Apr 2017)

cremeegg said:


> I hope you are registering as an employer, deducting paye, psi, use etc. Or have other arrangements to ensure you are tax compliant.



None of that is relevant here.


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## cremeegg (5 Apr 2017)

Gordon Gekko said:


> None of that is relevant here.



Really ?



T McGibney said:


> The rules, such as they are, are contained in a substantial library of case law and are quite complex and often mutually contradictory.  The application of this body of case law to each individual case is determined by the particular facts of that case. For example, a cleaner may be free to control his/her own hours on a given assignment and may be empowered to subcontract the work or elements of it to third parties without the premises owner's specific consent. An individual in such circumstances is unlikely to fit within the parameters of an employee, as employees are rarely free to come and go as they choose and can rarely if ever nominate a substitute to replace them.



The situation is complex and unclear.

However if a householder pays a cleaner to attend at set hours, if the householder expects the cleaner to do the work him or her self rather than allow a stranger into the house. That seems to me to indicate an employment situation.


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## aristotle (5 Apr 2017)

cremeegg said:


> However if a householder pays a cleaner to attend at set hours, if the householder expects the cleaner to do the work him or her self rather than allow a stranger into the house. That seems to me to indicate an employment situation.



Hardly is, you are paying for a service. If you pay a milk man to deliver milk every morning you hardly see that as an employment situation?


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## cremeegg (5 Apr 2017)

aristotle said:


> Hardly is, you are paying for a service. If you pay a milk man to deliver milk every morning you hardly see that as an employment situation?



The milkman may call at the same time every morning but that is his decision not your instruction. You may have the same milkman calling every morning, but he could send a colleague to do the delivery without having to ask for your agreement.

I rather think your post proves my points.


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## landlord (5 Apr 2017)

Felt guilty !!!!!
We  informed our cleaner yesterday that we were going to increase her wages up to €50 for the four hours.


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## aristotle (5 Apr 2017)

cremeegg said:


> The milkman may call at the same time every morning but that is his decision not your instruction. You may have the same milkman calling every morning, but he could send a colleague to do the delivery without having to ask for your agreement.
> 
> I rather think your post proves my points.



Not really, milkman in my area is actually working for himself and I ask him to delivery milk each morning, he has no colleagues he takes instruction to deliver milk by 7am each day. So you really think I should be employing him?

Are their real world examples of what you are claiming?


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## T McGibney (5 Apr 2017)

cremeegg said:


> However if a householder pays a cleaner to attend at set hours, if the householder expects the cleaner to do the work him or her self rather than allow a stranger into the house. That seems to me to indicate an employment situation.



The opposite is also true.


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## cremeegg (5 Apr 2017)

aristotle said:


> Not really, milkman in my area is actually working for himself and I ask him to delivery milk each morning, he has no colleagues he takes instruction to deliver milk by 7am each day. So you really think I should be employing him?
> 
> Are their real world examples of what you are claiming?



I think we are miscommunication here. 

My view is that a milkman is self employed. I suggest that there are two tokens of this. He controls his own hours. While he may discuss with his customers what time they would like their milk delivered it is up to him to set his own schedule taking into account the needs of all his customers. Secondly, while he may work alone, if he wished he could get someone else to do a delivery for him, he would not need to ask the customers permission.

By contrast many cleaners, work the hours set by the householder, and are expected to do the work in person. If a cleaner is supposed to come on a Saturday morning from 10 to 1 I doubt many householders would accept that they come on Wednesday at 6 without prior agreement. While different people may have different arrangements, I would think in the real world when a regular cleaner is sick on holidays whatever they could not send a replacement into the home without first getting the householders permission.


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## Gordon Gekko (5 Apr 2017)

If this was a tax exam, and the question set out the circumstances of this cleaner/customer relationship with a requirement to consider the cleaner's employment status, a student who deems the cleaner to be an employee would fail spectacularly. Everything points to the cleaner not being classified as an employee; the Henry Denny case, Revenue's Code of Practice for Determining Employed or Self-Employed Status, etc.


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## cremeegg (5 Apr 2017)

The employment status of a cleaner depends on the exact arrangements of any relationship between householder and cleaner and these will obviously vary, it seems to me that many would meet the Revenues criteria for employment as set out here.

Criteria on whether an individual is an employee

While all of the following factors may not apply, an individual would normally be an employee if he or she:

Is under the control of another person who directs as to how, when and where the work is to be carried out.

Supplies labour only. Receives a xed

hourly/weekly/monthly wage.

Cannot subcontract the work. If the work can be subcontracted and paid on by the person subcontracting the work, the employer/employee relationship may simply be transferred on.

Does not supply materials for the job.

Does not provide equipment other than the small tools of the trade. The provision of tools or equipment might not have a signi cant bearing on coming to a conclusion that employment status may be appropriate having regard to all the circumstances of a particular case.

Is not exposed to personal nancial risk in carrying out the work.

Does not assume any responsibility for investment and management in the business.

 Does not have the opportunity to pro t from sound management in the scheduling of engagements or in the performance of tasks arising from the engagements.

Works set hours or a given number of hours per week or month.

 Works for one person or for one business.

 Receives expense payments to cover subsistence and/or travel expenses.

 Is entitled to extra pay or time off for overtime.

Additional factors to be

considered:

 An individual could have considerable freedom and independence in carrying out work and still remain an employee.

 An employee with specialist knowledge may not be directed as to how the work is carried out.

 An individual who is paid by commission, by share, or by piecework, or in some other atypical fashion may still be regarded as an employee.

 Some employees work for more than one employer at the same time. Some employees do not work on the employer’s premises.

 There are special PRSI rules for the employment of family members.

 Statements in contracts considered by the Supreme Court in the ‘Denny’ case, such as “You are deemed to be an independent contractor”, “It shall be your duty to pay and discharge such taxes and charges as may be payable out of such fees to the Revenue Commissioners or otherwise”, “It is agreed that the provisions of the Unfair Dismissals Act 1977 shall not apply etc”, “You will not be an employee of this company”,


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## newirishman (5 Apr 2017)

you could look at www.hassle.com and not have to worry about employment law. what a rabbit hole this thread....


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## cremeegg (5 Apr 2017)

A rabbit hole yes but thats half the fun


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