# We could address the staff shortage through factory built housing



## time to plan (7 Sep 2021)

Does anyone have an idea of how problem might be partially alleviated by a move towards modular housing construction?


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## time to plan (7 Sep 2021)

Purple said:


> Yes. There's lots of posts and a few threads on the topic.


Then it may be relevant to this thread. Not so many construction workers are required in Ireland if construction activity is transferred to manufacturing activity, which could either take place overseas, or which could conceivably be a growth opportunity for Irish manufacturing (which is a side point to the main argument).


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## Brendan Burgess (7 Sep 2021)

I have checked the plan


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## Brendan Burgess (7 Sep 2021)

This is the closest I could find:


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## PGF2016 (7 Sep 2021)

Purple said:


> Read this thread.
> Construction is a total disaster when it comes to increases in productivity and modern methods of manufacturing. Houses should be assembled, not built on site.


Why is it that a public company such as Cairn Homes doesn't move to modern methods? Why are share holders not pushing for this?


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## Purple (7 Sep 2021)

The first thing we need to do is stop calling it modular housing. It should be called factory built housing or using modern (latter half of the 20th Century) methods to build housing.

When robotics was first introduced in manufacturing it was very expensive, required very high volumes of parts to be economical and took months to implement. Now a good robot costs €30k, can be implemented into a production process in hours and is economical on low volume production runs.
The same applies to any technology; it gets cheaper and easier with time.


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## Purple (7 Sep 2021)

PGF2016 said:


> Why is it that a public company such as Cairn Homes doesn't move to modern methods? Why are share holders not pushing for this?


Because our standards are all specific to traditional build methods and the Department of the Environment won't revise them. That's why Big Red Barn are making homes in Mayo and exporting them to the USA but can't sell them here.


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## Purple (7 Sep 2021)

Good information from Engineers Ireland here.


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## Purple (7 Sep 2021)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Great article, but it describes them as modular homes
> 
> Brendan


True. My point is that there's a perception that they are like the school prefabs from the 70's and 80's whereas they are a superior product to houses built on site.

Imagine if you ordered a new Toyota and a few weeks later a bunch of guys rocked up to your house and started assembling it in your driveway. Suppliers shipped to your door in no particular order and quality control was done by a guy who turned up for a few minutes every day. That's how we build houses.


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## Purple (7 Sep 2021)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Here is the Building Innovation Report
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's a good report and if they actually followed through it would make a big difference but they won't. There is a fundamental lack of project  management and IT skills with most of the small subcontractors in the sector and that's very hard to address.


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## losttheplot (7 Sep 2021)

I've been looking at getting a garden room to use as a gym/office. The high end ones are amazing. When people see the price the first comment is 'you could build one for that'. There's an automatic assumption that traditional block is the gold standard.


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## Brendan Burgess (7 Sep 2021)

Purple

The examples on the two links you provided seem to be for detached houses on their own land.

I presume it would be easier to build an estate of houses much more easily this way. Do you have any links to these? 

Does it apply to apartments as well? 

Brendan


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## time to plan (7 Sep 2021)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Purple
> 
> The examples on the two links you provided seem to be for detached houses on their own land.
> 
> ...


In general terms, high volume low variation is where this approach should be at its strongest.


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## Purple (7 Sep 2021)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Purple
> 
> The examples on the two links you provided seem to be for detached houses on their own land.
> 
> ...


There's no reason why not. Many industrial units are built using largely pre-fabricated elements.


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## Purple (7 Sep 2021)

time to plan said:


> In general terms, high volume low variation is where this approach should be at its strongest.


True, initially, but it should be like buying a kitchen. You go to the showroom, spec it out from standard small modules, pick you flooring, bathrooms, finishes, fittings etc, see what it will look like on CAD, and get a price there and then.
Even if you are buying from the plans on a new build all the interior fittings and finishes, even the configuration of the rooms, could be done that way.


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## noproblem (7 Sep 2021)

I would strongly advise anyone who is thinking of building to visit the offices of Big Red Barn. It really isn't possible to explain what they're all about in a few sentences. It'll be an eye opener for anyone that goes to the trouble.

Big Red Barn​https://bigredbarn.ie


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## Peanuts20 (7 Sep 2021)

Plenty of Rhofab houses from the 70's still dotted around the country, especially in the South so we have done this before. However there are issues, not least the fact that the banks may need to change how mortgage funds for new builds are released since the modular factory may want payment prior to construction is complete. Also there is limited scope for change, so once the moduler units are built, adapting them to an issue on site is far more difficult. Hence they are probably not ideal for once off housing


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## Purple (7 Sep 2021)

Peanuts20 said:


> Plenty of Rhofab houses from the 70's still dotted around the country, especially in the South so we have done this before.


Yes, things have moved on in the last 50 years. We just missed it.


Peanuts20 said:


> However there are issues, not least the fact that the banks may need to change how mortgage funds for new builds are released since the modular factory may want payment prior to construction is complete.


Agreed. The game changer will be when someone like Amazon starts building houses or building factories to build houses. If we can ship wind turbines around the world we can ship modular houses. 


Peanuts20 said:


> Also there is limited scope for change, so once the moduler units are built, adapting them to an issue on site is far more difficult. Hence they are probably not ideal for once off housing


They are perfect for one-off houses, as you can have a virtual walk-through using a VR headset before anything is built. Why would you want to change anything after that?


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## Brendan Burgess (7 Sep 2021)

We should be looking at attracting a modular house factory to Ireland rather than even more IT companies.  

Brendan


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## Brendan Burgess (7 Sep 2021)

A good article here









						Are Modular Homes the Answer to the UK’s Housing Crisis? - Build Magazine
					

Did you know that the current housing shortage means that the UK needs to be building 240,000 – 300,000 homes annually until 2025? Despite this, the




					www.build-review.com
				




*Why Modular Housing Could be the Answer*

But modular housing could be the perfect solution to the housing crisis for four reasons:


Modular homes are more affordable as they take less time to build, and therefore making it easier to produce more in the same time as a more traditional built. For example, a modular home can be built in 2 days whereas the average traditional build takes 32 weeks.
Unskilled workers can also be hired – As modular homes are manufactured on a production line, it’s easier to train staff which will help overcome the current declining workforce in construction.
Poor weather can’t hamper construction – Again, because modular homes are manufactured in factories, the number of days that construction can’t take place will be reduced.
They’re cheaper than traditional builds – Prices start at £25,000 which is 11% of the cost of the UK’s average house price.


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## Brendan Burgess (7 Sep 2021)

I had forgotten that we had tried it for emergency accommodation.









						Modular housing plans supported by councillors
					

Peter McVerry Trust backs proposal to install 250 prefabricated houses on vacant sites




					www.irishtimes.com
				












						Cost of modular homes up to €100,000, says Alan Kelly
					

Minister impressed by ‘excellent quality’ after visiting  factory-built houses in capital




					www.irishtimes.com


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## Brendan Burgess (7 Sep 2021)

And a piece written by an architect 









						LocalGov.co.uk - Your authority on UK local government - A modular solution to the housing crisis
					

Richard Hyams says modular construction is the untapped answer to providing shelter to Britain’s homeless.




					www.localgov.co.uk


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## Purple (7 Sep 2021)

Rather than spend €4 billion bribing developers should we spend €1 billion building a factory that can churn out high quality, high efficiency, environmentally friendly homes? We could start supplying them to local authorities and using State owned land. We could then take orders from the existing building companies for their needs. 
Getting the supply-chain set up would be the biggest challenge but the non-construction related private sector is really good at that stuff. 
If we don't want it to be a semi-State then provide the VC funding for one of the big American or Mainland players to set up here.


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## Coldwarrior (7 Sep 2021)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Purple
> 
> The examples on the two links you provided seem to be for detached houses on their own land.
> 
> ...


Modular apartment blocks can be substantially built in a day in China https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRjGVS1FIwk


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## time to plan (7 Sep 2021)

I wonder how the economics stacks up for building an estate of 100 houses in the two different ways.


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## Purple (8 Sep 2021)

Brendan Burgess said:


> We should be looking at attracting a modular house factory to Ireland rather than even more IT companies.
> 
> Brendan


The problem is getting the supply-chain in place. It's a massive undertaking. I'm sure people like Kingspan could supply large elements of the wall units but given the fat, inefficient and dysfunctional nature of the construction sector I think it would be a major challenge. That doesn't mean it's aa bad idea but there's a considerable investment required.

We could approach some of the big US and Mainland EU suppliers and ask them to quote for 20,000 units a year for the next 10 years. I think we'd get a good price.


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## time to plan (8 Sep 2021)

Purple said:


> The problem is getting the supply-chain in place. It's a massive undertaking. I'm sure people like Kingspan could supply large elements of the wall units but given the fat, inefficient and dysfunctional nature of the construction sector I think it would be a major challenge. That doesn't mean it's aa bad idea but there's a considerable investment required.
> 
> We could approach some of the big US and Mainland EU suppliers and ask them to quote for 20,000 units a year for the next 10 years. I think we'd get a good price.


Buying it in makes more sense to me than trying to build factories. Keep it simple. There are plenty of other manufacturing sectors that Ireland is 'good at'.


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## PGF2016 (8 Sep 2021)

Brendan Burgess said:


> A good article here
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm always wary when an article doesn't discuss any downsides. What, if any, are the downsides when comparing modular homes to traditional block built homes?


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## joe sod (8 Sep 2021)

Purple said:


> The problem is getting the supply-chain in place. It's a massive undertaking. I'm sure people like Kingspan could supply large elements of the wall units but given the fat, inefficient and dysfunctional nature of the construction sector I think it would be a major challenge.


Isn't that why it has been done before because it's a "massive undertaking" you would need a monster factory, probably a quarry and a cement factory on site. Then the issue of roads not being wide enough to transport these large components. In the US there are wide straight roads and its a huge country with a large market. It's a very big risk for anyone in Ireland by the time you would have it all in place you would just be in time for the next recession. Remember our whole construction industry collapsed in 2008, one of the worst construction recessions in the world.
The high tech companies like Apple or Amazon wouldn't touch it with a barge pole , sure they even baulked at manufacturing electric cars because it too high risk , and not profitable enough for the risk.


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## Brendan Burgess (8 Sep 2021)

Buying them in does make more sense.

But it could be worth looking at a manufacturing unit in Ireland in the long-term.

One of the problems in Ireland is boom and bust.  We train lots of construction workers for the boom and they end up unemployed and emigrating for the busts.  A factory could remove some of that volatility.  It's easier to ramp up or turn down productions as required.

But we are running before we are walking.   The first step would be to get the idea of modular housing acceptable to government and the planning authorities.

Brendan


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## Purple (8 Sep 2021)

joe sod said:


> Isn't that why it has been done before because it's a "massive undertaking" you would need a monster factory, probably a quarry and a cement factory on site. Then the issue of roads not being wide enough to transport these large components. In the US there are wide straight roads and its a huge country with a large market. It's a very big risk for anyone in Ireland by the time you would have it all in place you would just be in time for the next recession. Remember our whole construction industry collapsed in 2008, one of the worst construction recessions in the world.
> The high tech companies like Apple or Amazon wouldn't touch it with a barge pole , sure they even baulked at manufacturing electric cars because it too high risk , and not profitable enough for the risk.


Yep, but the domestic house building industry here hasn't changed since the Second World War. Construction is by far the biggest industry in the world and it is staggeringly inefficient. It's also the biggest polluter. Apple or Amazon mightn't touch it but someone like Tesla might. 

 gives a good overview of the issues the sector faces.


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## Brendan Burgess (8 Sep 2021)

PGF2016 said:


> I'm always wary when an article doesn't discuss any downsides. What, if any, are the downsides when comparing modular homes to traditional block built homes?



This is a very good question. 

Are they less easy to extend? 

Brendan


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## Purple (8 Sep 2021)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Are they less easy to extend?


I don't see why they would be as there are fewer load bearing walls so breaking through the existing structure should be less of an issue. It's just down to design though.


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## Leo (8 Sep 2021)

Brendan Burgess said:


> I forgot about the Rohfab houses
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I grew up in one of those. They were no worse than the hollow block walled houses that were common at the time, just cheaper. Full cavity walls appeared here first in the mid-'60s, with partial fill cavities starting in the late '70s


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## joe sod (8 Sep 2021)

Brendan Burgess said:


> One of the problems in Ireland is boom and bust. We train lots of construction workers for the boom and they end up unemployed and emigrating for the busts. A factory could remove some of that volatility. It's easier to ramp up or turn down productions as required.


But is that not the precise reason why nobody would bother setting up a house factory ? the massive initial capital investment, therefore you need a constant demand, you cannot afford to turn down production during a bust. A building contractor can afford to turn everything back down again or move to another country, it's easy move a few machines and tools not a whole factory.
All of our big construction companies were set up decades ago, Murphy, Sisk, Paul etc more disappeared in the  2008 recession. In fact I would say there is much less innovation and capital investment now in Irish construction than ever. Maybe we need to look at our dependence on foreign direct investment and the relatively easy money to be made facilitating those rather than the risk and work involved in setting up a new construction company or "house factory"


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## shweeney (8 Sep 2021)

all these examples seemed to be aimed at dropping a one-off dwelling into an empty site. 
We need estates and apartment buildings that require a lot of underlying infrastructure - anyone have an example of this being done with modular construction?


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## Purple (8 Sep 2021)

joe sod said:


> All of our big construction companies were set up decades ago, Murphy, Sisk, Paul etc more disappeared in the 2008 recession. In fact I would say there is much less innovation and capital investment now in Irish construction than ever.


I agree with you. We are in a far worse position to address our housing needs than we were 20 years ago.


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## Purple (8 Sep 2021)

shweeney said:


> all these examples seemed to be aimed at dropping a one-off dwelling into an empty site.
> We need estates and apartment buildings that require a lot of underlying infrastructure - anyone have an example of this being done with modular construction?


No, they are best suited to mass production of a small number of base models which are easily customised.


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## RedOnion (8 Sep 2021)

Brendan Burgess said:


> But we are running before we are walking. The first step would be to get the idea of modular housing acceptable to government and the planning authorities.





shweeney said:


> all these examples seemed to be aimed at dropping a one-off dwelling into an empty site.
> We need estates and apartment buildings that require a lot of underlying infrastructure - anyone have an example of this being done with modular construction?



There are already modular houses being built in Ireland, both one-off houses and housing estates.  Here's one manufacturer, who even built social housing: https://mhi.ie/case-studies/

They appear to have capacity to build 500 per year.

Changes in building regulations are required before some of these methods can be used for Apartments here, although timber framed construction is used throughout Europe.


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## Purple (8 Sep 2021)

RedOnion said:


> There are already modular houses being built in Ireland, both one-off houses and housing estates. Here's one manufacturer, who even built social housing: https://mhi.ie/case-studies/


Beautiful houses and a really nice website. That is exactly what is needed. More please.
50% faster construction time with only 4 weeks needed on-site. How do we scale up that side of the sector?


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## RedOnion (8 Sep 2021)

Purple said:


> 50% faster construction time with only 4 weeks needed on-site.


Saw a one-off house built near me during Covid.  Extremely impressive to see the speed.

Site works, foundation and subfloor follows traditional methods.  Then you see a scaffold built to full height, but no house, which looks strange. 
Crane arrived on site over a weekend, followed by trucks on Monday morning, with the house walls on the back.  You could see shape of house at the end of first day.  Walls complete on Tuesday evening.  Then roof went on.  Crane finished by Wednesday.  Roof was all pre-fabricated timbers, and then traditional slate went on over the following week or so. Most of the on-site work was then indoors.  In terms of 'building' work, they spent as much time on the entrance gate walls as they did on the main structure of the house.


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## joe sod (8 Sep 2021)

RedOnion said:


> Roof was all pre-fabricated timbers, and then traditional slate went on over the following week or so. Most of the on-site work was then indoors. In terms of 'building' work, they spent as much time on the entrance gate walls as they did on the main structure of the house.


I think there are a few issues that you have drawn attention to, I have seen timber construction in Canada and US and it is definitely much faster and more forgiving of mistakes, and yes they make lots of mistakes . It is interesting that the roof was still traditionally slated (one of the most laborious and unforgiving of tasks) , in Canada the roofing is just sheets of plywood with felt tiles nailed on, i have never seen that done in Ireland, it must be because of our extremely wet and windy climate you have to have a conventional roof.

           Of course modular construction would be a major advancement , however I don't agree with the narrative that the construction industry is full of thickos and if only they could learn from the high tech or manufacturing industries everything would be rosy. There are many valid reasons why things are done the way they are. There are no Michael O Learys or Jeff Bezos jumping across into the construction industry to bring some "blue sky thinking" I wonder why ?


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## RedOnion (8 Sep 2021)

joe sod said:


> It is interesting that the roof was still traditionally slated (one of the most laborious and unforgiving of tasks)


I suspect in this particular case, it is more to do with planning permission than anything else - the house is on a mountainside in 'an area of outstanding beauty' or whatever the planner decided to call it.  

There's another that I'm aware of with a metal roof that was done in a small number of sections.


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## fidelcastro (8 Sep 2021)

In 


joe sod said:


> Isn't that why it has been done before because it's a "massive undertaking" you would need a monster factory, probably a quarry and a cement factory on site. Then the issue of roads not being wide enough to transport these large components. In the US there are wide straight roads and its a huge country with a large market. It's a very big risk for anyone in Ireland by the time you would have it all in place you would just be in time for the next recession. Remember our whole construction industry collapsed in 2008, one of the worst construction recessions in the world.
> The high tech companies like Apple or Amazon wouldn't touch it with a barge pole , sure they even baulked at manufacturing electric cars because it too high risk , and not profitable enough for the risk.


Finnish houses are pre built at factories as standard. They are far superior to any draughty Irish construction.


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## joe sod (9 Sep 2021)

fidelcastro said:


> In
> 
> Finnish houses are pre built at factories as standard. They are far superior to any draughty Irish construction.


The Scandis do alot of things that we don't do or will never do, they also came up with their own technology companies like Nokia and Erricson, we havn't done that either remember even though we are home to America's finest.
They have large tracts of forest , probably the largest in Europe, slower growing timber much better for construction than our very fast growing softwoods, therefore they have a huge timber industry, the same as the US and Canada also big users of modular construction. They also have superb  governmental and regulatory environment, our government runs away from regulation and certification , thats why we are dealing with mica and pyrite issues at huge cost today from lack of regulation in the early 2000s


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## kinnjohn (9 Sep 2021)

fidelcastro said:


> In
> 
> Finnish houses are pre built at factories as standard. They are far superior to any draughty Irish construction.


Draughty Irish Construction using traditional Irish materials needs to be addressed,

If you look at Germany or Austria lots are now using traditional Irish concrete Construction materials, The reason is airtightness and heat retention in winter, and no need for air-conditioning equipment in hot summer conditions,
if you take a two-story above ground house
Most are built with a basement where all of their washing heating and electric services are located,
 the basement along with the upper retaining pillars are reinforced concrete floors all floors along with the roof are concrete,
The brick between the retaining pillars roofs are flat in the summer the concrete takes the heat and transfers it evenly
around the inside of the house,
in the winter the concrete retains the heat, on the outside of the house the use insulation as you see used in Ireland to insulate the outside of existing buildings,
once the shell is in place work on finishing the building can move at different speeds,


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## Purple (9 Sep 2021)

kinnjohn said:


> If you look at Germany or Austria lots are now using traditional Irish concrete Construction materials, The reason is airtightness and heat retention in winter, and no need for air-conditioning equipment in hot summer conditions,


About a quarter of new German homes are factory built.
The reasons for choosing that option include better insulation, better air flow management, better airtightness, better heat retention in the winter, much higher quality construction, faster, much more environmentally friendly and considerably cheaper.


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## Itchy (9 Sep 2021)

joe sod said:


> ...our government runs away from regulation and certification , thats why we are dealing with mica and pyrite issues at huge cost today from lack of regulation in the early 2000s



Mica is and was regulated. Ultimately, the tax payer is shelling out due to non-compliance by the manufacturer.


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## Leo (9 Sep 2021)

joe sod said:


> in Canada the roofing is just sheets of plywood with felt tiles nailed on, i have never seen that done in Ireland, it must be because of our extremely wet and windy climate you have to have a conventional roof.


Lots of Canada get very similar levels of rain and wind to what we get. The prevalence of shingled roofs there is a cost play, the materials are cheap and you don't need skilled labour.


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## kinnjohn (9 Sep 2021)

Purple said:


> About a quarter of new German homes are factory built.
> The reasons for choosing that option include better insulation, better air flow management, better airtightness, better heat retention in the winter, much higher quality construction, faster, much more environmentally friendly and considerably cheaper.


Purple I am aware of all of the above, I worked all of my life in engineering, I worked closely with European OEMs,
for most of my working life,
Housing was a subject that came up often over the years,


At present, I am looking at selling a timber-framed house built in 2006 that I have rented out if the present tenants move out,
I have direct built a few times  in my lifetime,
I have a site in a good  location retirement wise my first choice is a factory-built timber-framed house,
On my travels to Germany and Austria in the last few weeks, I have been checking up and getting feedback on newly built houses over there,
I am also now looking at a concrete design, the only wood is for Doors and Door frames which is standard enough design over there if you include a basement,


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## joe sod (14 Sep 2021)

@Purple I heard Tom parlon of the construction federation talking about the issues there now. He made a surprising revelation that there is an off site factory ready to go to manufacture pods for apartment blocks and hotels where the design of the apartment or hotel room is the same and these can then be delivered and connected up to services on sire. The issue is that they don't have the throughput to start production, there are not enough projects big enough and with planning ready to go in order for them to start. Everything that is wrong seems to point back to government incompetence. He said a lot of the problems are in "kildare street"


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## Purple (14 Sep 2021)

When we say 'the Government' we mean the State. The Government is a small number of transient people who are titularly in charge for a few year. The Government includes them and tens of thousands of State employees. Changing the boys and girls in the government, the elected bit, doesn't fix the problem and anyone whose been watching since they were old enough to watch knows that. 'The Government' is shorthand for the institutions of the State. 

With that in mind.


Planning and massive delays from site purchaser to selling the properties, with all the associated costs: The Government
Building Regulations that aren't fir for modern methods of manufacturing: The Government
Land Hoarding and the fact that there's nothing done to stop it: The Government.
People being priced out of rental properties with their own money: The Government.
People being priced out of buying properties with their own money: The Government
Yes, they are a big part of the problem.


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## RedOnion (14 Sep 2021)

Purple said:


> They've been doing that in private house builds in the US for the last 30 years or more.


It'll take us another 30 years to reverse the "concrete built is better built" marketing campaign!


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## joe sod (14 Sep 2021)

RedOnion said:


> It'll take us another 30 years to reverse the "concrete built is better built" marketing campaign!


He also said that roofing now arrives in kit form pre assembled , however the price of these kits has gone up over 50% due to timber shortages. Irish timber can't get felling licenses due to the requirements for ecological studies which no other country in Europe is imposing and the government failed to pre empt the requirement for ecologists before bringing in this condition. He asked another great question, what's the point in having a semi state forestry company coillte when it cannot provide timber during a time like now of critical shortage.
Also the fact that the government closed down the whole construction industry also not done by anyone else meant that workers went to the U.K. and France during the lockdown s, they are provided with free accommodation on site over there so also not returning anytime soon.


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## Brendan Burgess (22 Sep 2021)

I spoke to someone who has retired recently from the sector. 

It would not be practical to import modular built houses into Ireland due to the transport costs.  Building or assembling houses is heavy work and it's better to site the source of the materials as close as possible to the destination.

We have some excellent construction companies and some great technical universities who would have the skills to develop this industry.

But the venture would require a guaranteed demand for many years to justify the initial expenditure e.g. The government buying 5,000 houses a year for ten years.

As far as he knows, there has been no research or feasibility study into the issue and that should be the first step for the government to commission a TU to check it out. 

The flats in Ballymun were essentially manufactured on site by Sisks(?) and then assembled, so we have done it before. The fact that they were modular housing was not a reason for their failure. 

Brendan


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## ryaner (22 Sep 2021)

One issue I've been told while talking to some of the companies involved was that the house tend to be too air tight for Irish standards. The building standards here haven't caught up with modern air recycling so you have the wonderful case of insulating your house, then being required to cut a giant hole in the wall to stop the damp.

Really though where is the incentive for the industry to move in this direction when you have them quoting for "affordable" homes, meaning 1 bed apartments priced at 400k, and then bought by the councils. There is less profit in the markup when you can build something in less time and base cost.


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## Leo (24 Sep 2021)

ryaner said:


> One issue I've been told while talking to some of the companies involved was that the house tend to be too air tight for Irish standards. The building


Can you expand on that? Our regs include details on how to achieve the ventilation requirements for air-tight building envelopes...


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## Purple (24 Sep 2021)

ryaner said:


> Really though where is the incentive for the industry to move in this direction


That's the crux of it. The State is the biggest player in the construction sector in that they are the biggest buyer, the biggest developer and they set the standards. They have the leverage and clout at every stage of the process to change things but they seem to lack the organisational imagination and intellect. 
We are very badly served by the organs of State in this country. That's the conversation we need to have.


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## ryaner (24 Sep 2021)

Leo said:


> Can you expand on that? Our regs include details on how to achieve the ventilation requirements for air-tight building envelopes...


Admittedly is a few years since I last looked at building a house but at the time we were told that options like heat recovery systems were possible, but to meet the initial standards, vents in the walls were required, then afterwards we could seal them back up again and use the hrv. If they requirement has changed since, great.
We did get similar issues insulating the house we bought later on. One comical one being the bathroom where the inspector said the bathroom needed a vent and argued that the 3 foot long velux window with a vent wouldn't be enough.

Based on some searching it is looking like some regs changed in 2020 with the EU’s nZEB standard that might actually allow a hrv without also having holes in the wall in every room.


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## RetirementPlan (27 Sep 2021)

Phoenix Magazine mentions that Jamie Moran Homes are building four houses on Charleston Road , D6 



> using a cast concrete construction technique that involves the "manufacture" of the building offs-site before the various sections are assembled onsite



Jamie himself doesn't exactly hide his light under a bushel (veteran of The Apprentice and Room to Improve) so he might well be open to a bit of publicity around doing a case study on this.


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## Leo (28 Sep 2021)

I see Glenveigh have bought the former Braun site in Carlow with plans to set up timber frame manufacturing. Perhaps a step in the right direction.


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## Purple (28 Sep 2021)

Leo said:


> I see Glenveigh have bought the former Braun site in Carlow with plans to set up timber frame manufacturing. Perhaps a step in the right direction.


Good news for Carlow as well. God knows the town could do with some good news on the manufacturing jobs site of things.


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## Protocol (30 Sep 2021)

What happened to construction productivity? Part 1: Measurement
					

How do we know what's actually happening to construction productivity?




					noahpinion.substack.com


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## Protocol (30 Sep 2021)

Why did agriculture mechanize and not construction?​








						Why did agriculture mechanize and not construction?
					

On her YouTube channel, Belinda Carr poses an interesting question: why did agriculture mechanize (ie: replace manual labor with machine labor), but not construction? Construction is often contrasted with factory-based production, but in many ways agriculture is a better comparison. Both...




					constructionphysics.substack.com


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## Protocol (30 Sep 2021)




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## joe sod (1 Oct 2021)

@Protocol it's a good chart but while charts can tell a lot of information there is also a lot of stuff they don't show. US construction productivity was very high after the war because that was when they were building all those vast car dependent suberbs on green field sites, it's easy to be productive when building on clean new sites. You can sort of approximate factory productivity in that environment. Now those suburbs are all built and just like in Europe they need to retrofit existing buildings or clear sites in existing built up areas.

Imagine how productive modern manufacturing would be if you had to take back in an old fridge , computer or car and upgrade it to modern standards. Productivity in manufacturing is based on the fact that everything gets junked and they are always dealing with clean new materials .


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## Purple (1 Oct 2021)

Protocol said:


> Why did agriculture mechanize and not construction?​
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Interesting but this;


> Nonrepetitive movements are fundamentally an information problem - they require some method of telling a machine the state of the surrounding environment, and what to do depending on what that state is.
> 
> As software gets better and better, and as technologies like computer vision continue to improve, our ability to solve these information problems increases. Technologies like CNC milling, 3D printing, laser/plasma cutting, and even some steel sheet folding are already capable of quickly and cheaply fabricating different parts, one right after the other.


has been happening in Manufacturing for years. Where I work we use robot arms (co-bots or collaborative robots) to load and unload machines. Those machines can shift for manufacturing one complex part to another in about 30 minutes. In other words that technology's in place in Irish SME's so there's no reason it shouldn't be in place in larger factories building homes.


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## Firefly (1 Oct 2021)

Brendan Burgess said:


> We have some excellent construction companies and some great technical universities who would have the skills to develop this industry.
> 
> But the venture would require a guaranteed demand for many years to justify the initial expenditure e.g. The government buying 5,000 houses a year for ten years.
> 
> Brendan


I really wonder should the State not investigate a Sale-and-Leaseback arrangement? Provide a site and tender out the build to developers. The State would lease the houses for say 60 years at an agreed rent. No upfront risk / borrowing for the government. Fixed income for the developer thereby making finance from a bank much easier. Less risk of the taxpayer getting fleeced too -> the developer would take that risk. You can be sure the houses would be built quickly.


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## Purple (4 Oct 2021)

Firefly said:


> I really wonder should the State not investigate a Sale-and-Leaseback arrangement? Provide a site and tender out the build to developers. The State would lease the houses for say 60 years at an agreed rent. No upfront risk / borrowing for the government. Fixed income for the developer thereby making finance from a bank much easier. Less risk of the taxpayer getting fleeced too -> the developer would take that risk. You can be sure the houses would be built quickly.


Isn't that what's happening with the buy to let's at the moment?


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## Firefly (23 Dec 2021)

This looks promising..._World Economic Forum_









						This is the world’s first 3D-printed 2-storey house
					

The World Economic Forum is an independent international organization committed to improving the state of the world by engaging business, political, academic and other leaders of society to shape global, regional and industry agendas. Incorporated as a not-for-profit foundation in 1971, and...




					www.weforum.org


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