# Learner Driving in Housing Estate



## Happy Girl (12 May 2008)

Our estate is being innundated with learner drivers, driving schools and testers (between 40-50 cars per day) doing their three point turns and reverse manoeuvres from 8.00 in the morning until after 10 at night. While I fully appreciate that learner drivers have to practice somewhere (God knows I was there myself many years ago) however our main concern is the safety of our children in the estate and this road where the drivers are has to be crossed by the kids to get to the large green area. We have contacted the driving test centre and put our case to them but they replied that we are on of the listed sites for these two manoeuvres & that they would only use these places for tests approx 6-8 times per day. If we have probs with driving schools & individuals we should take it up with them. However the question I am posing here is does anybody know what legal entitlement we have to tell one of these learners/driving schools that they cannot use our estate.


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## jhegarty (12 May 2008)

I would imagine you don't have any rights , presuming its a public road...


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## JJ1982 (12 May 2008)

In my driving test a few years ago in Cork, two ladies stood behind my car on three occasions so that i could not do my reerse around corner. they were obviously protesting and I can see their point of view completely, i think reversing around a corner is a very dangerous thing to do anyway and i would be very worried if my child was playing in an estate where that was happenening. i hope there is something you can do


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## mattym (12 May 2008)

Thats what you get for having a good surface on the roads in your estate, they dont come to my estate. The car would get a right doing with the amount of potholes!!! You know that yourself!!!


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## Leo (12 May 2008)

I'd would have thought drivers taking lessons or a test are likely to be about the safest drivers on the road!
Leo


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## foxylady (12 May 2008)

Leo said:


> I'd would have thought drivers taking lessons or a test are likely to be about the safest drivers on the road!
> Leo


 

As a alearner myself I would agree with you on that. 
I for one am extremely cautious and uber vigilant when driving in estates where there are kids. That said some kids will just walk out on the road looking straight at you and not move, grrr


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## Happy Girl (12 May 2008)

Leo said:


> I'd would have thought drivers taking lessons or a test are likely to be about the safest drivers on the road!
> Leo


 
I dont want this issue to become a discussion as to whether L drivers are safer driver than ordinary drivers or not. My take on it would be that L drivers certainly would be the most cautious which is different from the safest. But that is not the issue here. The issue is that there are unacceptable volumes of cars queuing up to do their 3point turns and reverse manoeuvres on a road that leads across to our green area. I personally do not feel for one moment that one of these drivers will reverse over any of the children. They do however block the view of oncoming cars which has potential for accidents. Anyway even aside from these issues, the point is that we do not want 40-50 extra cars daily in our 40 house estate, that we maintain and look after and take great pride in.


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## cinders (12 May 2008)

how about approaching your local TD / County Council & addressing your concerns with them?


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## Purple (12 May 2008)

I can't get in or out of work on Saturdays or Sundays with all the learners in the industrial estate so console yourself that they don't just target housing estates.


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## Brianne (12 May 2008)

If the residents' association is concerned about this they could approach their local council or TD and make their concerns known. Failing that approach which more than likely won't work, as even in an estate , the road is a public one, then maybe the residents need to think about making the area less user friendly...........eg park all cars on the road outside the owners houses. Park in such a way that reversing  around corners is difficult, and place kids bicycles and plastic toys etc as obstacles in the middle of the road.
One estate I know did this last to slow down drivers with great success. Remember those driver schools are running businesses , so do whatever is necessary but legal to look after your own area , they'd do the same if it was affecting them.


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## Happy Girl (12 May 2008)

Brianne, Brill idea. Had considered getting some residents to park on areas concerned but the kids toys, bicycles etc. great idea. Tks. Will certainly give it a go.


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## Joe1234 (12 May 2008)

Happy Girl said:


> Brianne, Brill idea. Had considered getting some residents to park on areas concerned but the kids toys, bicycles etc. great idea. Tks. Will certainly give it a go.



Great until a child decides to run into the road to retrieve one of these toys.  The learner drivers will probably keep out of the estate when the funeral is leaving it.


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## Brianne (12 May 2008)

The children in the area which did this knew the purpose of the exercise, had no interest in retrieving ancient toys that up to this were languishing in sheds and furthermore children of an age that would dash out into traffic were never allowed out anyway without their parents. The end result was a much safer estate.


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## Graham_07 (13 May 2008)

The learner drivers driving into our estate do so at a much much reduced speed than the residents, many of whom seem to be either landing or taking off when they turn the corner. ( Tell me this isn't the case elsewhere too ) Bring on the learners I say.


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## Strawberries (13 May 2008)

Out of curiosity which estate/area is it? i don't think there's a whole lot you can do apart from go to your TD. Personally the learners should realise that practising reversing around the same corner the whole time might not be a good idea as there could be roadworks/crash/anything on the day of the test and they might have to go to a different estate!


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## dereko1969 (13 May 2008)

Nimbyism writ large here, you state you don't believe the learner drivers will cause any accidents so what's the problem, where do you want learners to learn? Where did you learn to drive? Did you ask the residents there before you drove around? People should learn to calm down and not get so het up about non issues.


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## ClubMan (13 May 2008)

Happy Girl said:


> doing their three point turns and reverse manoeuvres from 8.00 in the morning until after 10 at night.


14+ hour lessons? Pretty intensive.


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## Purple (13 May 2008)

ClubMan said:


> 14+ hour lessons? Pretty intensive.



Maybe Mr. Miyagi is giving the lessons?


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## aircobra19 (13 May 2008)

dereko1969 said:


> Nimbyism writ large here, you state you don't believe the learner drivers will cause any accidents so what's the problem, where do you want learners to learn? Where did you learn to drive? Did you ask the residents there before you drove around? People should learn to calm down and not get so het up about non issues.


 
I think the point was quite clear...



Happy Girl said:


> ....our main concern is the safety of our children in the estate and this road where the drivers are has to be crossed by the kids to get to the large green area. ...


 
Its a public road (unless the developer still has it) so theres nothing you can do. Other than parking (legally) to make it awkward for them. Unless of course they are driving dangerously in which case you could report them to the Guards.


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## Guest117 (13 May 2008)

Happy Girl said:


> the point is that we do not want 40-50 extra cars daily in our 40 house estate, that we maintain and look after and take great pride in.


 
FYI Happy Girl - the extra traffic ( small learner driver cars ) will not do any noticable damage to the roads - our roads would need virtually no maintenance if it was only cars using them - it is the heavier vehicles that damage them. My point is that I don't think an approach to your TD along " the Wear and Tear to road " route is the best plan.

I agree with other posters that your best best bet is to legally make the site less attractive to the test schools by parking etc

good luck - as one with small kids I understand the concern


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## Joe1234 (13 May 2008)

Brianne said:


> The children in the area which did this knew the purpose of the exercise, had no interest in retrieving ancient toys that up to this were languishing in sheds and furthermore children of an age that would dash out into traffic were never allowed out anyway without their parents. The end result was a much safer estate.



Well I'm comforted to hear that every child who lives in and visits that estate is old and wise enough to know that toys placed on a road were not for playing with.  Children, no matter what age they are, naturally want to play with toys.


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## Brianne (13 May 2008)

Joe1234, I am so pleased that you are comforted!!!!


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## Graham_07 (14 May 2008)

Just following this thread but slightly to one side of it.  Can anyone tell me where HAVE all the "L" plates gone? Is it me or is there a marked reduction in "L" plate carrying cars on the roads. Are all the learner drivers previously out there on 1st/2nd provisionals being passed with flying colours before the June deadline? Or is there a deeper reason. ( Not that anyone would ever drive on a provisional without displaying "L" plates ) A few months ago practically every 4th/5th car seemed to have "L" plates. In a 30 mile drive yesterday I spotted 2. Roughly the same as the sunny days in summer. Have they joined the spoons in LOS ?


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## Joe1234 (14 May 2008)

Brianne said:


> Joe1234, I am so pleased that you are comforted!!!!



And I'm pleased that you are condoning the practice of putting childrens lives at risk.  As a parent of 2 children under 4, I find the idea of putting toys in the middle of the road to be totally inconsiderate.  Even if the children that live in the area are old enough to know what was going on, what would happen if one family had younger children visiting, and they obviously didn't know what was happening?


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## Joe1234 (14 May 2008)

Graham, I think you will see even less L plates in July


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## Brianne (14 May 2008)

Joe 1234, so now I am happy to put children's lives at risk!!! 

This comment is based on an observation I made on what I saw done in a local estate. An old plastic car with no wheels and in very bad condition was left strategically in a place where traffic was forced to slow down , result was very satisfactory and no children were hurt or died but went back to playing and continue to play in safer conditions.

I would think that anyone who owns children under two would be delighted with any legal effort to reduce the hazard of traffic in an area where children live and I feel insulted by your comment.


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## Leo (14 May 2008)

Brianne said:


> I would think that anyone who owns children under two would be delighted with any legal effort to reduce the hazard of traffic in an area where children live and I feel insulted by your comment.



Littering is illegal!


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## aircobra19 (14 May 2008)

The alternative viewpoint would be that Kids that can't cross a road safely or are not aware enough to stay clear of learner drivers or cars in general, shouldn't really be out on a road, public green unsupervised in the first place.


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## Joe1234 (15 May 2008)

Brianne said:


> any legal effort to reduce the hazard of traffic



See post from Leo regarding littering.  Is obstructing a public road legal?


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## csirl (15 May 2008)

> Just following this thread but slightly to one side of it. Can anyone tell me where HAVE all the "L" plates gone? Is it me or is there a marked reduction in "L" plate carrying cars on the roads. Are all the learner drivers previously out there on 1st/2nd provisionals being passed with flying colours before the June deadline? Or is there a deeper reason. ( Not that anyone would ever drive on a provisional without displaying "L" plates ) A few months ago practically every 4th/5th car seemed to have "L" plates. In a 30 mile drive yesterday I spotted 2. Roughly the same as the sunny days in summer. Have they joined the spoons in LOS ?


 
It would be nice to think that they are all getting lessons and passing their tests, but the cynic in me thinks that since it will be illegal to drive unaccompanied with L plates on July 1st, many are just removing them in an effort to disguise the fact that they are on provisional licenses.


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## TDON (15 May 2008)

> Park in such a way that reversing around corners is difficult, and place kids bicycles and plastic toys etc as obstacles in the middle of the road.


 

What happens if someone unfamiliar drives into the estate, i.e. drives IN, and not reversing around the corner and has cars on the road parked on corners obstructing views of children sitting on ground at the bumber of cars, toys on road that have to be driven around like and obstacle course and children darting out. Even at 10 mph a child could be seriously injured. And given a situation like that and a split second to respond, something is going to give and obviously a driver would go for hitting a toy or a stationary vehicle before a child. I don't know, but I can see huge allegations from this and think it would make it way more dangerous.


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## dieseldave (15 May 2008)

I would assume this would only be for a couple more month's to clear the back log of people that need their cars for work etc., before the new law on provisional licence drivers not being allowed to drive on their own, my sister and my in-laws were very shocked when it first came in, then they gave a few month's for people to apply and pass tests.


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## ajapale (15 May 2008)

A neighbouring estate is plagued with these learner drivers queuing up to practice reversing around a corner. In addition to the safety concerns they have blocked driveways on occasion.

The estate has not yet been taken in hand by the council and the residents have now erected signs at the entrance and at the bends. One sign consist of a large red "L" with a red line across it. Another simply states "Learner Drivers not welcome on this private estate.


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## Megan (16 May 2008)

It was in last Sundays' papers that we are going to have Sunday test to clear the back log. That means you will have these L drivers in your estates 7 days a week.


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## PaulHoughton (16 May 2008)

I had this problem with people parking on the street outside my house and walking or driving slowly past my gateway. Now, I just leave my scent at prominent locations around my patch. Also I bark at passing traffic. 

When I need to drive past somebody else's house that's a different story because I expect people to treat me better than I treat them. 

Woof woof.


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## jhegarty (16 May 2008)

People have spent the last 20 years say that people need to start taking learning to drive seriously , and not that they do this is the response...


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## Happy Girl (20 May 2008)

ajapale said:


> A neighbouring estate is plagued with these learner drivers queuing up to practice reversing around a corner. In addition to the safety concerns they have blocked driveways on occasion.
> 
> The estate has not yet been taken in hand by the council and the residents have now erected signs at the entrance and at the bends. One sign consist of a large red "L" with a red line across it. Another simply states "Learner Drivers not welcome on this private estate.


 
Our estate has not yet been taken in charge by the local Council it (is due to be taken in charge in the next few months though) and is stil in charge of the developer at this stage. Do that give us any stronger a case in the position?


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## Happy Girl (20 May 2008)

_[Originally Posted by Happy Girl]  Our estate is being innundated with learner drivers, driving schools and testers (between 40-50 cars per day) doing *their* three point turns and reverse manoeuvres from 8.00 in the morning until after 10 at night._



ClubMan said:


> 14+ hour lessons? Pretty intensive.


 
I think it is quite clear that "_*their*_" denotes more than one person!


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## stevec (20 May 2008)

Happy Girl said:


> Our estate has not yet been taken in charge by the local Council it (is due to be taken in charge in the next few months though) and is stil in charge of the developer at this stage. Do that give us any stronger a case in the position?


 
It's a public road so the public have every right to drive there unless they're doing something illegal.

We all pay lots of tax so the council will maintain 'your' road and provide lighting and maintenance so I don't think you have any case to prohibit anyone from using it.

If you and the rest of the residents feel so strongly, why not take charge of the estate yourselves and put gates on it. 
Would you each be willing to pay a few €000 every year for this?


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## Happy Girl (20 May 2008)

ClubMan said:


> 14+ hour lessons? Pretty intensive.


 


stevec said:


> It's a public road so the public have every right to drive there unless they're doing something illegal.
> 
> We all pay lots of tax so the council will maintain 'your' road and provide lighting and maintenance so I don't think you have any case to prohibit anyone from using it.
> 
> ...


 
I think u misread my post. Our estate has not been taken in charge therefore no taxes paid by anyone goes towards the lighting and maintenance of it.


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## stevec (20 May 2008)

Happy Girl said:


> I think u misread my post. Our estate has not been taken in charge therefore no taxes paid by anyone goes towards the lighting and maintenance of it.


 
It will be in a few months though

I was making the point that the only way to restrict usage would be to take charge of it yourselves and pay a management company to maintain it.

There are plenty of 'estates' in Dublin like this.

The only case you could make to the council would be that the learners were posing a danger. I don't think you could argue that they're spoiling the look of the place.


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## ajapale (20 May 2008)

ajapale said:


> The estate has not yet been taken in hand by the council and the residents have now erected signs at the entrance and at the bends. One sign consist of a large red *"L" with a red line across it.* Another simply states *"Learner Drivers not welcome on this private estate."*



The signs are up now for over a week and no learner drivers have been seen so far!


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## Mad_Lad (20 May 2008)

aircobra19 said:


> The alternative viewpoint would be that Kids that can't cross a road safely or are not aware enough to stay clear of learner drivers or cars in general, shouldn't really be out on a road, public green unsupervised in the first place.



I couldn't agree more aircobra19. Not to sound harsh but in my estate children are running wild all over the estate, And If I hit one I'm responsible! Fact is  a lot of parents seem too happy to have their kids from under their feet in someone elses garden or on the street. Fact is the streets are for cars and access not kids playing, It's too dangerous. Some of them are so bold they even dare you to hit them. But if I did, god for bid hit a child, The parents I bet would come kicking my door down, calling me all sorts. Fact is parents are responsible for Their kids safey! I would be less worried about a cautious L driver under the supervision of an instructor than I would be about boy racer thugs not giving a C...R...A....P about anyone or anything other than the noise of their C.....R....A....P exhaust!!!!


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## Complainer (21 May 2008)

You could try an organised protest at peak lesson times by setting up a barricade of reisdents and just block entry to the driving school cars. They will soon get the message and take their business elsewhere.


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## Soldier (21 May 2008)

The street i live on isthe same has learner drivers all the time it annoys me sometimes when im in a bad mood  but otherwise i dont care we all had to practice somewhere. i live on the corner house to so they always back around our corner but my next door neighbour on the other hand it drives them cracked and they actually run them out of it. there is a disabled spot painted on the road next door and he wont let them drive within an inch of it.


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## Mad_Lad (21 May 2008)

people have nothing better to do I suppose but moan. I was very glad to have housing estates to learn. Imagine the public roads with L drivers trying to do 3 point turns etc Imagine the poor L drivers getting blown off the road. People have no time for L drivers Learning,to be honest there are worst things like boy and girl racers and people in general who speed through estates not caring about anyone else. Maybe time would be better spent trying to do something about that? But I guess people don't want to upset people in their own estates.


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## hopalong (31 May 2008)

dont think you would be any happier if you had uninsured racers in the estate.seems like another nimby case.dont forget those small kids grow up and want to learn to drive legally,so think on a few years.


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## horse7 (2 Jun 2008)

thats a valid point,the roads are for the public use,car bikes etc,some people are under the illusion because they live in a house they own the road.


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