# re accounts and  fees



## jmmymac12 (8 Sep 2008)

can anyone recommend where i can learn to do my accounts for a small business. i have looked at sage etc and they are not very relevant.accountants fees are exorbitant cheers


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## ubiquitous (8 Sep 2008)

jmmymac12 said:


> can anyone recommend where i can learn to do my accounts for a small business. i have looked at sage etc and they are not very relevant.


Learning to do your accounts is one thing. Learning the workings of the tax system, how it affects you and how best to plan to legally minimise your tax burden is another thing altogether.



> accountants fees are exorbitant


Have you shopped around using recommendations from family/friends?


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## jmmymac12 (8 Sep 2008)

i have and they all seem dear .after perseverance i can now do vat returns so i am some way there.i was looking at a kilroys course but i dont know the details yet


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## simplyjoe (8 Sep 2008)

I applaud your attempt at economising but I feel you may live to regret your actions if you attempt to do your own tax returns. However best of luck.


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## rabbit (9 Sep 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> Have you shopped around using recommendations from family/friends?


 
lol Its not as if accountants display their prices in their shop windows , is it ?  A friend tried to shop around a few accountants recently to find the best price and was given the run around. The receptionist did not know the price.  She said to ask the accountant.  He was out.   When contacted later he said it would depend on.....be in the range of ... to .... etc   Accountants know that most self-employed and business people need accountants just to comply with the laws and tax regime their fellow accountants have devised.


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## QED (9 Sep 2008)

What area are you in?

Personal recommendations are generally best when choosing an accountant.


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## Ham Slicer (9 Sep 2008)

rabbit said:


> The receptionist did not know the price.  She said to ask the accountant.  He was out.   When contacted later he said it would depend on.....be in the range of ... to .... etc   Accountants know that most self-employed and business people need accountants just to comply with the laws and tax regime their fellow accountants have devised.



Of course the receptionist didn't know.  Would you ask the security guard at the front of PC World how much a laptop was?

Accountants prices are dependent on...

As previously said work off recomendations.


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## ubiquitous (9 Sep 2008)

rabbit said:


> A friend tried to shop around a few accountants recently to find the best price and was given the run around. The receptionist did not know the price.  She said to ask the accountant.  He was out.   When contacted later he said it would depend on.....be in the range of ... to .... etc



Just to be clear...did this happen with "a few accountants" or with only one? Your use of singular and plural is a bit odd, unless perhaps they all share the one receptionist


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## z103 (9 Sep 2008)

> I applaud your attempt at economising but I feel you may live to regret your actions if you attempt to do your own tax returns. However best of luck.


I really do believe that you should declare that you are an accountant, in this instance.

So answer the OP's query, sortmybooks run accounts courses and supply software that may be suitable
www.sortmybooks.com

(I have no affiliation with the above company)


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## hhhhhhhhhh (9 Sep 2008)

leghorn said:


> So answer the OP's query, sortmybooks run accounts courses and supply software that may be suitable
> www.sortmybooks.com



I would stay away from software until you know how to do the books first.

Use excel to get you started.

If you are not sure what you are doing software packages can make the task seem even more daunting.
Then when you are comfortable with the process, buy software.


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## Yaffle (9 Sep 2008)

You can get a lot of infomation of www.revenue.ie they do a good starting in business guide and then a guide for any tax return you may have to complete. As hhhhhhh said excel should be enough for a small business.

Did you look at bookkeepers (they're usually cheaper than accountants)? I have heard that some will do the tax adjustments and tax return and you sign it off yourself. Or you can take a bookkeepers accounts and complete the tax return using the notes and helpsheets from www.revenue.ie.


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## z103 (9 Sep 2008)

> If you are not sure what you are doing software packages can make the task seem even more daunting.
> Then when you are comfortable with the process, buy software.


Spreadsheets can end up a tangled mess, and are more prone to errors.
Some software is far easier to use. Try writing a PRSI macro for example.


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## ubiquitous (10 Sep 2008)

Yaffle said:


> Did you look at bookkeepers (they're usually cheaper than accountants)? I have heard that some will do the tax adjustments and tax return and you sign it off yourself. Or you can take a bookkeepers accounts and complete the tax return using the notes and helpsheets from www.revenue.ie.



Most bookkeepers are not very good at tax planning, technical tax adjustments and related issues. That's why they are bookkeepers.


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## rabbit (10 Sep 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> Most bookkeepers are not very good at tax planning, technical tax adjustments and related issues.


 
lol how would you define a "*technical* tax adjustment" as opposed to a normal tax adjustment ? 

As regards tax planning, I know of a big firm of accountants a number of years ago who did not tell their client his section 23 tax incentive allowance was just used up, so he had to pay a lot more tax that year , and he bought another tax incentive property the year after. He quizzed 5 different bookkeepers ; all said they would have alerted their client to the issue which the very large accountancy business failed to.


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## ubiquitous (10 Sep 2008)

rabbit said:


> He quizzed 5 different bookpeekers ; all said they would have alerted their client to the issue which the very large accountancy business failed to.



*5* different bookkeepers?  Did he not believe the first 3 or 4? I'm surprised that they didn't tell him that, yes of course they would make such a stupid error in dealing with his file. What did he expect them to say  Did he ask them had they Professional Indemnity Insurance to cover them if they did make such a boo-boo?

Btw, is this the same guy who went to  "a few accountants" all of whom happened to share the one receptionist? He must be some operator 


ps some examples of technical tax adjustments:
Assessment of eligibility for Retirement Relief from CGT
Interpretation of Case I Commencement & Cessation rules
Operation of Professional Services withholding tax
Definition of principal private residence
Scope of applicability of RCT
Corporation Tax implications of investment & rental income.
Rules for determining trade v Capital transactions
When can I stop


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## Caveat (10 Sep 2008)

rabbit said:


> bookpeekers


 
  Was this intentional?


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## rabbit (10 Sep 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> Btw, is this the same guy who went to "a few accountants" all of whom happened to share the one receptionist? He must be some operator


 
Different person.   By the way, the few accountants all had the same receptionist.   As far as I know, He went to the receptionist / dogsbody of one accountant and chatted to another accountant directly.   You wrote to someone " Have you shopped around ?" (accountants) but it is not easy to shop around...as I said its not as if accountants have their prices / rates in their shop window.  Many do not seem to like people shopping around, do they ?   Why are accountants not more upfront about their fees ?


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## rabbit (10 Sep 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> ps some examples of technical tax adjustments:
> Definition of principal private residence


 
You mean a bookkeeper cannot look up the definition of a " principal private residence " and only an accountant is " technically" qualified to advise somebody re same ?


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## ubiquitous (10 Sep 2008)

rabbit said:


> Different person.   By the way,* the few accountants all had the same receptionist*.   As far as I know, He went to the receptionist / dogsbody of one accountant and chatted to another accountant directly.



Thanks for clarifying that, but I still don't understand why you said:


> The receptionist did not know the price. *She said to ask the accountant. He was out. *







rabbit said:


> You wrote to someone " Have you shopped around ?" (accountants) but it is not easy to shop around...as I said its not as if accountants have their prices / rates in their shop window.  Many do not seem to like people shopping around, do they ?   Why are accountants not more upfront about their fees ?



Its very easy to shop around. Simply ask trusted friends and family for recommendations for a good/cheap/quick accountant (depending on what your priority is). Follow up the positive recommendations and make your choice.


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## rabbit (10 Sep 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> Its very easy to shop around. Simply ask trusted friends and family for recommendations for a good/cheap/quick accountant


 
lol there is a difference - a very big difference - between getting a "recommendation" and "shopping around".

"Its very easy to shop around"( accountants).  Its very easy to win the lotto. Just get the right numbers.

What if many different friends / family cannot think of any accountants who do not charge an arm and a leg ?


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## Graham_07 (10 Sep 2008)

leghorn said:


> Spreadsheets can end up a tangled mess, and are more prone to errors.


 
All software, ready made accounts software and spreadsheets alike are all subject to the GIGO rule. If the person does not have a basic understanding of what is supposed to go where and why, errors will occur. 

I do find, especially for small businesses, that spreadsheets work very well once set up. I have a number of templates which I have provided to cllients which they complete and  I find it works well. It's easier for them and I get the records in a manner which makes it faster for me to complete, we both benefit. 



leghorn said:


> Try writing a PRSI macro for example.


 
For payroll I would recommend simple software as the computations for  PRSI in particular is not easy to fully cover in spreadsheets. As far as PRSI self-employed is concerned, you can do the computations on ROS.


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## ubiquitous (10 Sep 2008)

rabbit said:


> lol its very easy to win the lotto. Just get the right numbers.
> 
> What if many different friends / family cannot think of any accountants who do not charge an arm and a leg ?



Then they can always resort to trolling on websites.

Good luck to you


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## Graham_07 (10 Sep 2008)

rabbit said:


> lol its very easy to win the lotto. Just get the right numbers.
> 
> What if many different friends / family cannot think of any accountants who do not charge an arm and a leg ?


 
Then clearly set out what you want done, the basic size and extent of the business and the records maintained. Set out what you expect the accountant to do, i.e. is it just year end tax & accounts or bookkeeping also. Have this as clear as possible and you can use that to get quotes. A mechanic will not give you a quote to repair a car unless they see it and get some basic understanding of what is needed to be done. The same goes for accountants. There is no mystery, noone is "hiding charges". It is just not practical to give a quote on the phone without seeing what has to be done. Any accountant who gives out such quotes is a fool.


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## Graham_07 (10 Sep 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> Then they can always resort to trolling on websites.
> 
> Good luck to you


 
Any chance for a fee quote on that


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## z103 (10 Sep 2008)

> All software, ready made accounts software and spreadsheets alike are all subject to the GIGO rule. If the person does not have a basic understanding of what is supposed to go where and why, errors will occur.
> 
> I do find, especially for small businesses, that spreadsheets work very well once set up. I have a number of templates which I have provided to cllients which they complete and I find it works well. It's easier for them and I get the records in a manner which makes it faster for me to complete, we both benefit.


Spreadsheets certainly are more prone to errors or mistakes than purposely developed software.
You send templates to your clients, but they might change a formula, or forget to recalculate something etc.
Spreadsheets have their purpose, but to use them to run a business would be folly. 
Use the correct tools for the task.

(I can't really believe I'm even discussing this, the merits of purposely developed software Vs spreadsheets.  is this the 80s?)


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## rabbit (10 Sep 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> Then they can always resort to trolling on websites.


 
That would not get the accounts / tax returns done. No more than real life accountants who spent their time trolling their profession on websites

Anyway, to answer the original posters question " can anyone recommend where i can learn to do my accounts for a small business. i have looked at sage etc and they are not very relevant.accountants fees are exorbitant cheers"
maybe some college beside you has evening courses etc ? Or get a good book ? Things like vat returns and VIES returns are easy - once you do one or two you get in on it and its easy, if quite repetitive after that. The ROS website is quite easy to use too. Do not be intimidated by the "experts" who may not have your best welfare / interests at heart.


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## Graham_07 (10 Sep 2008)

leghorn said:


> (I can't really believe I'm even discussing this, the merits of purposely developed software Vs spreadsheets.  is this the 80s?)


 
The tools should always fit the job for which they are intended to be used in. 

I have many clients using purposely developed accounting software. However I do not agree that it is "folly"  for certain businesses to be using spreadsheets. One of many examples I could give is a carpentry sub-contractor with one bank account, all sales on invoices, say 20-30 invoices a year, very few purchases other than motor & tools/repairs. A cash book, bank Jnl & VAT spreadsheet will be more than adequate for them to fulfil their statutory obligations on record keeping. They can be easily tailored/tweaked to fit different businesses. 

I have a retail client with in excess of €1Mpa turnover who successfully runs everything on spreadsheets(except payroll). On the other hand I have a lady doing bookkeeping services part-time with t/over <€20Kpa who uses The Big Red Book. Horses for courses comes to mind. 

( Incidentally while I have no connection with the Big Red Book I find it a great package for small retail or service businesses to use )


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## z103 (10 Sep 2008)

> One of many examples I could give is a carpentry sub-contractor with one bank account, all sales on invoices, say 20-30 invoices a year, very few purchases other than motor & tools/repairs. A cash book, bank Jnl & VAT spreadsheet will be more than adequate for them to fulfil their statutory obligations on record keeping. They can be easily tailored/tweaked to fit different businesses.


Even that simple example can get surprisingly messy very quickly. For example, how does he track customers, who has paid? It would be far better for the person to use purpose made software. If he want to do up some charts of sales figures, then fire up the spreadsheet.



> The tools should always fit the job for which they are intended to be used in.


I don't believe people should be using spreadsheets to run their businesses.

How does your retail client deal with;
-audit trails
-collaboration (how many people use this spreadsheets?)
-knowledge transfer
-security
and of course, errors.
Roughly 94% of spreadsheets deployed in the field contain errors, and 5.2% of cells in unaudited spreadsheets contain errors
(source) http://mba.tuck.dartmouth.edu/spreadsheet/product_pubs.html

It really is shocking how backwards some companies are when it comes to IT


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## Graham_07 (10 Sep 2008)

leghorn said:


> For example, how does he track customers, who has paid?


 
Believe me, most small carpentry sub-contractors will know without ever looking up the records at all, who has paid and who hasn't. 




leghorn said:


> How does your retail client deal with;
> -audit trails
> -collaboration (how many people use this spreadsheets?)
> -knowledge transfer
> ...


 
To date, very well.


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## ubiquitous (10 Sep 2008)

Graham_07 said:


> One of many examples I could give is a carpentry sub-contractor with one bank account, all sales on invoices, say 20-30 invoices a year, very few purchases other than motor & tools/repairs. A cash book, bank Jnl & VAT spreadsheet will be more than adequate for them to fulfil their statutory obligations on record keeping. They can be easily tailored/tweaked to fit different businesses.



In my experience, this is very, very commonplace - and works well in most cases.



Graham_07 said:


> Believe me, most small carpentry sub-contractors will know without ever looking up the records at all, who has paid and who hasn't.



Agreed.


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## z103 (10 Sep 2008)

> How does your retail client deal with;
> -audit trails
> -collaboration (how many people use this spreadsheets?)
> -knowledge transfer
> ...


I don't believe you are qualified to be giving such systems analysis 'advice' to your clients.
Stick to the bean counting.


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## ubiquitous (10 Sep 2008)

Systems analysis...? Carpenters...?


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## z103 (10 Sep 2008)

> Systems analysis...? Carpenters...?


Yep.
I've designed systems for everything from hairdressers to major supermarkets.


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## ubiquitous (10 Sep 2008)

Each one to their own.


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## z103 (10 Sep 2008)

This product does job estimation and invoicing for carpenters, as well as lots more features.
http://www.eteknic.com/mc.html?gclid=CP-7uPrH0ZUCFRdqQgodT0AZjA

There are off the shelf products available for all niches, no matter how small the company. It's a great pity that such software isn't adopted more in Ireland.

Knowledge economy. lol.


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## Graham_07 (10 Sep 2008)

Graham_07 said:


> I have a retail client with in excess of €1Mpa turnover who successfully runs everything on spreadsheets(except payroll).


 


leghorn said:


> I don't believe you are qualified to be giving such systems analysis 'advice' to your clients.
> Stick to the bean counting.


 
I don't recall saying that I did advise in connection with that system, either its set up or implementation as it existed on my taking on the appointment. However as I said, both the owner and I find it works well for the particular circumstances of that case. 

Would you need Sage to count beans or would a spreadsheet do


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## simplyjoe (11 Sep 2008)

one thing doing your own bookkeeping, vat and paye. Entirely different story doing your form 11s/ct1s. Should in all cases be left to a qualified accountant. I am an accountant.


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## Domo (11 Sep 2008)

Most accountants and tax advisors can not give a definite answer to "how much will it cost?"  without knowing a lot more about your requirements and the running of your business.

This will depend on a lot of things - how many invoices you raise, how many invoices you receive from suppliers, whether or not you do your own bookkeeping, whether your records will be in good order, the size of the business (e.g. if you are a consultant and only raise 12 invoices a year or so, and your only expenses are travel and use of home and stationery the cost will be considerably lower that if you run a retail outlet with hundreds of transactions a week, any many different suppliers).  Will you do your own VAT returns?  Do you run a Limited Company?  Do you have payroll requirements?  Do you use bookkeeping software or spreadsheets?  Do you need an audit?

To give an accurate fee quote you really need to attend an initial meeting with an advisor so that they can have a feel of your requirements, and they will then be able to quote accordingly.


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## jmmymac12 (18 Sep 2008)

thanks for advice guys i do all my own vat returns so it is just end of year accounts. another quick question i do my paye and prsi levies 3 monthly  it is simple enough.i think. i have no paye levies but i tell my accountant what wages i pay and he works out the prsi. i would like to know the formula .this would probably save me something again rgds jimmymac12


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