# Maths Results Crisis 2008



## REXO (13 Aug 2008)

This doesn't surprise me given  that requirement for student Primary School Teachers is a *C3 in Pass maths.???????*

A love and ability at maths is instilled at Primary School.

We have to get better quality teachers into the system, pay them more?

Its a miracle I got through school and college  when i think of the pathetic maths teachers I had through primary and secondary. 

A female teacher friend of mine tells me that theres a greater emphasis on languages in primary schools because primary teachers are predominantly female who prefer to do teach irish and music than maths. 


Rexo


----------



## Anton (13 Aug 2008)

What a generalisation! I got an A1 in honours maths and took it as a degree subject as part of my BEd. I'm (despite the user name) female and know quite a few other females in the same boat.


----------



## Ash 22 (13 Aug 2008)

I honestly don't think primary school is the problem. There is a vast difference between maths in primary school and the maths they do in secondary school. Our teachers are coming out well qualified and even if a primary teacher got a C3 in her leaving cert maths that does'nt stop her from being a very good maths teacher. Primary school maths is not rocket science. Do you realise students entering primary school training colleges require way higher points than those going on to do arts. I would have been great at maths in primary school but then when I got to secondary school I would have found them much tougher. There is no comparison.


----------



## irishlinks (13 Aug 2008)

Making maths compulsory at Leaving cert is maybe part of the problem. For many people the stuff like calculus and other complex maths (I can't even remember the name of) - is just beyond them. In the UK a very small proportion of students do Maths beyond age 16. They have to choose to do it at A Level. Here in Ireland the Leaving Cert structure means that people end up doing Maths when  they do not want to do and have no interest in it. Make it compulsory to Junior Cert - but optional after that.


----------



## Morgause (13 Aug 2008)

I agree that the quality of maths teaching highly influences the outcome of the students' results.  I wasn't very good at maths until I had an excellent teacher in secondary school.  I was very lucky to have had this teacher.

However, I also think that there is a problem in this country in that it's ok to be "hopeless at maths".  How many times have you heard people say that they were never any good at maths in school?  I believe that this "maths is too difficult" attitude influences young people so much that they have this barrier up before they even try.

As for the idea of making maths optional for leaving cert... I'm not sure how to respond to that, except that I think it would be a very bad idea.


----------



## ClubMan (13 Aug 2008)

REXO said:


> This doesn't surprise me given  that requirement for student Primary School Teachers is a *C3 in Pass maths.???????*
> 
> A love and ability at maths is instilled at Primary School.
> 
> ...



This is not a Consumer Issues and Rights issue. 

Read the posting guidelines before posting again.


----------



## DrMoriarty (13 Aug 2008)

Why is this in *Consumer Issues and Rights*? 

Moved to *Miscellaneous Non-financial Questions*.

_[Edit: Post crossed with ClubMan's]_


----------



## Ash 22 (13 Aug 2008)

Some of the maths that are being done in secondary school are quite ridiculous and they are never used again for anything. They are so uninteresting and can take up so much time that could be put into another subject instead.


----------



## ontour (13 Aug 2008)

> We have to get better quality teachers into the system, pay them more?


 
Paying people more does not necessarily lead to a commensurate improvement in their performance, you only have to look at politicians to understand that and we, the public, interview them for their jobs.

I think that there needs to be some realignment between the course content for maths and applied maths where some aspects of the current leaving certificate maths syllabus should be moved to the applied maths syllabus.  This would need to be done in tandem with extending the availability of Applied Maths so that students with an interest in that areas still have the opportunity to grow their knowledge


----------



## diarmuidc (13 Aug 2008)

Ash 22 said:


> Some of the maths that are being done in secondary school are quite ridiculous and they are never used again for anything. They are so uninteresting and can take up so much time that could be put into another subject instead.


What maths exactly?


----------



## micmclo (13 Aug 2008)

Ash 22 said:


> Some of the maths that are being done in secondary school are quite ridiculous and they are never used again for anything..


 
I used to think that two until I got a job in a bank. Lots of this stuff is used and I'm not taking about managing someones account but monitoring risk and performance of funds. All complex equations

So yes, most people won't ever use it but that's hardly "never used again for anything"

Hell, just stroll down to the bookies or use  and you can get into probablity and arbritage without even realizing it


----------



## truthseeker (13 Aug 2008)

diarmuidc said:


> What maths exactly?


 
Lots of it. Obviously depending on if you go on to third level education or a career that require you to use particular topics, but for the most part after formal education I never had a need to use trigonometry, co-ordinate geometry, complex numbers, calculus, statistics and probability or functions and graphs. There may be more.


----------



## diarmuidc (13 Aug 2008)

truthseeker said:


> Lots of it. Obviously depending on if you go on to third level education or a career that require you to use particular topics, but for the most part after formal education I never had a need to use trigonometry, co-ordinate geometry, complex numbers, calculus, statistics and probability or functions and graphs. There may be more.



If you are not interested in that why not do pass or foundation level maths? After all in you day to day life you only need to be able to add, multiply, divide and have a basic grasp of financial formulae

All of this maths is vital for any scientist , engineer, economist etc.. If Ireland is serious about building a strong economy these people are the foundation.

A lot of what you learn in Leaving Cert is not applicable to you day to day life after school. (Shakespeare? John Donne? French?)


----------



## truthseeker (13 Aug 2008)

diarmuidc said:


> If you are not interested in that why not do pass or foundation level maths? After all in you day to day life you only need to be able to add, multiply, divide and have a basic grasp of financial formulae
> 
> All of this maths is vital for any scientist , engineer, economist etc.. If Ireland is serious about building a strong economy these people are the foundation.


 
Because for the points race people feel they need to do as many Honours subjects as possible.

I am both a scientist and a software engineer incidentally and I have never had to use any of the topics I mentioned in a real life situation (only as part of coursework in third level education).

It should be optional - the Irish education system forces people to try to do well in subjects that they have no natural aptitude for and does not encourage people in subjects that they ARE good at. Plenty of people never use anything bar basic maths after school, yet are forced to study it for 6 years in secondary school, time that may have been better spent in a subject they cared about. Same goes for all non optional Leaving Cert subjects (Irish and English).


----------



## GeneralZod (13 Aug 2008)

I love maths  and had good maths teachers. 

Learning new concepts can require effort though before it mentally clicks. Most of the rest of schooling is just learning by rote.

The kids need to work harder. Where they don't have qualified teachers they really are at a serious disadvantage.


----------



## diarmuidc (13 Aug 2008)

truthseeker said:


> I am both a scientist and a software engineer incidentally and I have never had to use any of the topics I mentioned in a real life situation (only as part of coursework in third level education).


I am an engineer and my day to day work is built on calculus. If you trying to claim that maths is optional to understanding most physical sciences and engineering then you are away with the birds.



> Plenty of people never use anything bar basic maths after school, yet are forced to study it for 6 years in secondary school, time that may have been better spent in a subject they cared about. Same goes for all non optional Leaving Cert subjects (Irish and English).


Wait a sec, as far as I remember higher level maths is mandatory only for certain science and engineering third level courses. Isn't this still true? 
And yes I believe that passing a certain level (at least foundation level) of maths should be required before you can claim to have a rounded education.


----------



## MrMan (13 Aug 2008)

Surely there are too many subjects required to have a 'rounded education'. I think the problem a lot of people had with maths was they would learn formulae and the like but not understand why they were actually usuing it and for what purpose. If there was more emphasis on the real life uses of mathemathics then maybe more people would find it interesting and not argue against its practicality.


----------



## Ash 22 (13 Aug 2008)

diarmuidc said:


> What maths exactly?


 
Truthseeker has given a run down on the maths which not everybody requires but obviously as I overlooked some people still do. 

Listening to the minister speaking on the news they seem to be making a change on the maths syllabus for the future so that sounds promising.


----------



## truthseeker (13 Aug 2008)

diarmuidc said:


> I am an engineer and my day to day work is built on calculus. If you trying to claim that maths is optional to understanding most physical sciences and engineering then you are away with the birds.


 
Where did I claim that? If you read my post I said that I never had a need to use the topics I mentioned in a real life situation besides third level education coursework. 



diarmuidc said:


> Wait a sec, as far as I remember higher level maths is mandatory only for certain science and engineering third level courses. Isn't this still true?
> And yes I believe that passing a certain level (at least foundation level) of maths should be required before you can claim to have a rounded education.


 
I think youve missed my point. It certainly is only mandatory for some courses but if you want to do a course that you need high points for you need to do as many honours subjects as possible just to achieve those points. Physiotherapy as an example, high points needed - but maths not necessarily important to the study of physiotherapy.

I loved maths, but I agree with posters who say that it should be optional, and I think that a lot of what is taught as part of the maths curriculum is never used by many people after school. Scientists, engineers - yes - but they do not make up the highest percentage of the population, if it was optional then people who wanted to become scientists or engineers would take it as a subject. Certainly students should be given a good grounding in maths, but the basics have been acquired by Junior Cert level and topics such as calculus, trigonometry etc....are not used by a hell of a lot of people in their everyday lives OR their jobs after school/college.


----------



## diarmuidc (13 Aug 2008)

MrMan said:


> Surely there are too many subjects required to have a 'rounded education'. I think the problem a lot of people had with maths was they would learn formulae and the like but not understand why they were actually usuing it and for what purpose. If there was more emphasis on the real life uses of mathemathics then maybe more people would find it interesting and not argue against its practicality.



Have you looked at the Foundation Level paper for the leaving cert. Here is paper  & ? Here two sample questions. Doesn't get more "real life" to me

_A person worked for 42 hours in a particular week. 
  The rate of pay for the first 35 hours was €12·48 per hour. 
  The rate of pay for the remaining hours was €18·72 per hour. 

  Find 

  (i) the gross wage for the week 

  (ii) the tax at 20%, given a tax credit of €64·40 

  (iii) the PRSI, to the nearest cent, at 4% of gross wages 

  (iv) the take-home pay. _

_ The number of litres of oil used to heat a building for five months is shown. 

   October  500 
   November  650 
   December  150 
   January  750 
   February  450 

 (i) Draw a bar-chart to illustrate the information. 

 (ii) Calculate the average amount of oil used per month. 

 (iii) Draw a line across the bar-chart to show this average. 

 (iv) Which month shows the greatest difference between the oil used and the average? 

 (v) What is the average cost of heating the building per month, if oil costs €0·65 per litre? 
_


----------



## diarmuidc (13 Aug 2008)

truthseeker said:


> Where did I claim that? If you read my post I said that I never had a need to use the topics I mentioned in a real life situation besides third level education coursework.


Well the inference was that scientists don't need maths. Otherwise why bring up your anecdote?


> you need to do as many honours subjects as possible just to achieve those points. Physiotherapy as an example, high points needed - but maths not necessarily important to the study of physiotherapy.


So do foundation level maths and then the honours subjects you are good at. Sounds to me like you are complaining about the points system and not the usefulness of higher level mathematics


----------



## MrMan (13 Aug 2008)

No I've never seen a foundation level paper because unfortunately the foundation level paper doesn't do much for the whole points total. This level could also be learned at junior cert level so no need to have it in leaving cert.


----------



## diarmuidc (13 Aug 2008)

MrMan said:


> No I've never seen a foundation level paper because unfortunately the foundation level paper doesn't do much for the whole points total. This level could also be learned at junior cert level so no need to have it in leaving cert.



Your original complaint was that maths was not based on real life. However now, like truthseeker you problem seems to be with the points system not the contents of the maths curriculum


----------



## truthseeker (13 Aug 2008)

diarmuidc said:


> Well the inference was that scientists don't need maths. Otherwise why bring up your anecdote?


 
What anecdote?
Where did I infer that scientists dont need maths? I simply stated that it was not of much use to me personally outside of third level education coursework.



diarmuidc said:


> So do foundation level maths and then the honours subjects you are good at. Sounds to me like you are complaining about the points system and not the usefulness of higher level mathematics


 
Im not clear where I am complaining about anything. Higher level maths is useful for certain careers. It is not useful for a lot of people outside of these careers. The way our national education system is set up people need a lot of points for a lot of courses. The only way to achieve those points is to do as many higher level subjects as possible. Therefore, they do higher level maths (because it is not optional so their only choice is higher or foundation level maths) and then find in later life it is not useful to them. Is this concept really so confusing to you?


----------



## REXO (13 Aug 2008)

Getting back to my Point basic point

A Primary School Teacher with a *C3 in Pass maths *does not inspire confidence as a basic teacher. 

Regardless of his/her ability in teaching maths, you'll end up with a weaker teacher of* all aspects* of education , languages and science

I want my kids to be taught by sharp quick intelligent people with a flair for science and languages.

Not someone that might have scratched a bare C3 in PASS.
It doesn't matter if all he/she is teaching basic addition all day.


----------



## diarmuidc (13 Aug 2008)

truthseeker said:


> Im not clear where I am complaining about anything. Higher level maths is useful for certain careers. It is not useful for a lot of people outside of these careers. The way our national education system is set up people need a lot of points for a lot of courses. The only way to achieve those points is to do as many higher level subjects as possible. Therefore, they do higher level maths (because it is not optional so their only choice is higher or foundation level maths) and then find in later life it is not useful to them. Is this concept really so confusing to you?



So what's your solution? 


REXO said:


> I want my kids to be taught by sharp quick intelligent people with a flair for science and languages.
> 
> Not someone that might have scratched a bare C3 in PASS.


I agree. However the only solution I see is to pay teachers more to attract the talent to the job and not relax the requirements.


----------



## truthseeker (13 Aug 2008)

diarmuidc said:


> So what's your solution?


 
Good grounding in basic maths up to Junior Cert level. Optional subject for Leaving Cert. Let those who either have an interest in maths or need it for later study/work choose it as a subject for Leaving Cert - at higher or lower level depending on their needs (certain courses may require a higher level than others). Let those who are not interested in maths choose a subject they are interested in. Change college entry requirements so that courses that dont require maths for coursework dont require a pass in it at Leaving cert level (either higher or lower).

This way perhaps you may get students studying something like an extra language for example and this could add a string to the bow of a CV. Or someone might study music over maths and turn out to have a hobby that allows them to teach on the side. 

Most students only study 7 subjects for leaving cert, I definitely think that overall exam results (points) would be higher if people got to study what they liked, were good at, were interested in etc...which would open more doors for them later.

I was rubbish at languages - but I had no choice but to take up Irish - a total waste of a subject for me - I would have preferred to do something practical like Home Economics so at least I could have learned to cook.
Or (if it was possible) teach people to drive in school - a skill that most people actually need later in life and one that if taught in school might help with road safety later.


----------



## MrMan (13 Aug 2008)

diarmuidc said:


> Your original complaint was that maths was not based on real life. However now, like truthseeker you problem seems to be with the points system not the contents of the maths curriculum




For someone who I would presume enjoys using logic you do not seem to be using it in this thread. This was my original comlpaint although I think complaint might be stretching it a bit: 





> Surely there are too many subjects required to have a 'rounded education'. I think the problem a lot of people had with maths was they would learn formulae and the like but not understand why they were actually usuing it and for what purpose. If there was more emphasis on the real life uses of mathemathics then maybe more people would find it interesting and not argue against its practicality.



My point was the current system doesn't so much teach you why its useful to have maths as tell you how to make a formula work. I was looking for a way to make it more interesting, you seem to think that if people don't like maths or can't cope with it they should simply do foundation level, thats hardly progressive thinking.


----------



## diarmuidc (13 Aug 2008)

MrMan said:


> For someone who I would presume enjoys using logic you do not seem to be using it in this thread. This was my original comlpaint although I think complaint might be stretching it a bit:
> 
> My point was the current system doesn't so much teach you why its useful to have maths as tell you how to make a formula work. I was looking for a way to make it more interesting, you seem to think that if people don't like maths or can't cope with it they should simply do foundation level, thats hardly progressive thinking.



Less of the childish remarks and deal with the issue.

I don't agree. The problem is not with the maths curriculum .  The maths that is thought in higher level leaving cert is the pretty much the same the world over. Complex numbers, trig, calculus, statistics etc form the foundation of the higher standard maths course everywhere. If students are not grasping it, either it's being taught poorly or the students do need to drop to a lower level. There *are* real life uses for all those maths , just maybe not in your life. Dumbing down a syllabus because of that is not a solution.


----------



## GeneralZod (13 Aug 2008)

I don't think we're ever going to make the Newton-Raphson method or similar seem relevant to the average Sean or Mary even though they're the bedrock of science & engineering.  You have to choose to study maths at third level before fully appreciating that humanity wouldn't be at our present level of development without it.  

I'm sympathetic to dropping Irish as a compulsory subject after the junior cert. Maths at a basic level will continue to be important in peoples lives in a way that Irish is not. Even so we should consider dropping the compulsory leaving cert maths rather than dumbing down the syllabus more than has already been done or reducing the entry standards to 3rd level courses requiring it. They have to keep up with our international peers.

We need to get more people studying higher level maths. At the other end of the spectrum we should be prepared not to force children to attend classes for it.


----------



## diarmuidc (13 Aug 2008)

truthseeker said:


> Optional subject for Leaving Cert.


You do that and I can bet a lot more colleges would have minimum entry requirements on their courses.


----------



## Ash 22 (13 Aug 2008)

Rexo seeing as the entry points for primary teacher training are 465 or so that would give me the impression that you have an intelligent person with a very good leaving cert. Why do you keep thinking of a pass C3 in maths. In the main clever students are good all round and the main run of these possibly have a way higher grade than that and even if some have C3 they can still teach primary level maths and every other subject also to a high standard. They have their college exams to pass and also while they are out on teaching practice are well scrutinised by examiners.
Its very easy to blame teachers but no matter how teachers try some students can not take things in as quickly as others. We were'nt all given the same brains.


----------



## Caveat (13 Aug 2008)

Does anyone else think that the samples posted above seem a bit easy for a LC paper?!

(and I neither like nor am particularly good at the subject)


----------



## truthseeker (13 Aug 2008)

diarmuidc said:


> You do that and I can bet a lot more colleges would have minimum entry requirements on their courses.



If they do they do - not every Leaving Cert student wants to go on to third level education anyway, and for those who do they would be made aware of the consequences of subject choices when they make them.


----------



## REXO (13 Aug 2008)

*Its very easy to blame teachers but no matter how teachers try some students can not take things in as quickly as others. We were'nt all given the same brains.[/*quote]

True, I dont know what i was thinking. However theres no good reason to relax the requirements. Maths should have a certain status given its importance to the future of a knowledge based economy.

I'd like to see what kind of maths the 7 year olds in China are being taught


----------



## MrMan (14 Aug 2008)

diarmuidc said:


> Less of the childish remarks and deal with the issue.
> 
> I don't agree. The problem is not with the maths curriculum .  The maths that is thought in higher level leaving cert is the pretty much the same the world over. Complex numbers, trig, calculus, statistics etc form the foundation of the higher standard maths course everywhere. If students are not grasping it, either it's being taught poorly or the students do need to drop to a lower level. There *are* real life uses for all those maths , just maybe not in your life. Dumbing down a syllabus because of that is not a solution.



I do use it in my working life currently although most of it was taught through 3rd level, but to say dumbing down the syllabus is not the solution when your actual solution is to drop to foundation level is hypocritical. 
In 3rd level I had 2 tutors who took different approaches to similar subjects. One took the straighforward route of handing out lists of formula to be learned off and then giving problems to solve and the other spent the first month without any maths and took us through different scenarios that will pop up in our professional lives and gave us the reasoning behind why we would be using certain formula later on. She got great results from the class where as he resulted in causing severe anxiety for everyone. I think it is important to understand why you use maths and therefore you can get over that mental block of 'I'll never need this in real life'.


----------



## Thrifty1 (14 Aug 2008)

I heard on the news last night about the low percentage of people taking honors Maths. I loved maths in school, up to Junior cert i took honors maths. For the leaving our secondary school didnt have a teacher qualified to teach it so 10 of us had to go to the local boys secondary school for classes.
The teacher there was beyond bad, in his ability to teach Maths but more so his abilty to control his class.
It was so bad, and i was spending so much time and money on grinds to make up for it i went back to ordinary level in the girls school where i had an excellent teacher and got an A1.
I couldnt believe the difference in the two levels, i understand the course work is much different but the difficulty level difference was astounding.

I am always amazed by people hatred of maths, like another poster said its common and acceptable for people to have such a dislike of it, one that i cant understand.
I think if perhaps teachers took some time to describe circumstances where it is used in everyday life it might become more interesting, rather than the common thinking that they will never need it again.


----------



## Caveat (14 Aug 2008)

I too disliked maths and I too had a poor teacher (most of the time)

By 5th year I had a good teacher who went some way to encouraging the mindset and approach required for maths -  but it was too late to instill any love or fascination with the subject and I still 'dropped to pass'

However, I would have been delighted to have been given given questions like the samples above.  I sat my LC 20 years ago and from memory, there was actually very little written english on the paper at all.  I genuinely think the examples are easy for a LC paper which I guess points to the 'dumbing down' accusations as I certainly don't think I have improved in the intervening years!


----------



## redstar (14 Aug 2008)

If maths was optional at LC I think the vast majority of students would avoid it because its seen as too hard.
These students are still only teenagers, and not yet mature enough to make a decision like that, which could have as yet unknown serious career/job consequences post-LC. 
How many of us made decisions at 15 or 16 which we would still make at 23 ?

Maths is a core subject for good reason. Its a cornerstone of modern society. Just because results are poor is no reason make maths optional. 
Perhaps there is a need for better guidance from teachers on which students should take pass or higher maths. Students taking higher maths would most likely go on to take third-level courses with a maths content. Everyone else should take pass maths. 

I agree that teaching methods should be changed to make maths methods (formulae, theorems etc) more relevant.
Ultimately, maths is about problem-solving, measuring, quantifying, decision-making. All are required skills in 'real-life'.


----------



## MrMan (14 Aug 2008)

maybe instead of learning off formulae they could just provide it with the exam paper and let students decide which formula suits which answer. One of the gripes was always learning off formula when in real life people would consult books etc before completing a difficult calculation.

Regarding being too young to make the mature choice, the optional subjects are chosen then so why not maths?


----------



## BoscoTalking (14 Aug 2008)

regarding the maths problem set there - that was for the lowest standard which is almost a mockery. My standard of primary school maths would have attained a D grade in it - doesn't say much for 3 years of study then. 

All the area and volume formula is going into log books now and i disagree with this because its so basic that a person needs to know this as a basic level of knowledge in my opinion. The education system has dumbed down so much that you have children coming out of primary not able to do simple mental maths like tables etc - sure i hated learning them but they stood to me in exams when time was precious.


----------



## redstar (14 Aug 2008)

MrMan said:


> maybe instead of learning off formulae they could just provide it with the exam paper and let students decide which formula suits which answer. One of the gripes was always learning off formula when in real life people would consult books etc before completing a difficult calculation.



Agreed. Knowing how to clearly define a problem and apply a solution from possible alternatives is more 'real-life' than learning formulae by rote.



> Regarding being too young to make the mature choice, the optional subjects are chosen then so why not maths?



Why are the optional subjects optional ? 
Maths is seen as a core area of learning and therefore not optional. Teenagers may not fully appreciate that - I know I didn't. If maths was optional, the temptation is to choose a less demanding subject. I know I would have done so at the time, especially as it would have made homework easier. I thought most of maths was irrelevant. 
Later, I became an electronics engineer. That would not have happened if I dropped maths.
Choosing, say, Spanish over Italian is probably not going to impact a student in later life compared to dropping maths (in my humble opinion).


----------



## thundercat (14 Aug 2008)

pennypitstop said:


> The education system has dumbed down so much that you have children coming out of primary not able to do simple mental maths like tables etc



Can you please tell me what you are basing that comment on. Maybe you are basing that on yourself but don't speak for the majority. I work in a primary school and myself and my colleagues are all hardworking , forward thinking and absolutely dedicated to ensuring each child gets the best education possible using as many methodologies as possible to appeal to the different intelligences and learning styles we are faced with. It drives me batty to read such drivel about how teachers at primary level are to blame! The _majority _of primary teachers are well educated, bright and motivated people who are providing a rich and varied education to the children in their classes. 

In my own class, we start each maths lesson with ten minutes of mental maths activities before we look at a topic- which is taught using as many resources as possible for children to manipulate which is then followed by either individual or, depending on the topic, group work. When we've done all that we revise, conclude and reflect. Brighter children are challenged with extra activities, teasers and problems whilst children with difficulty receive support. And that's just maths. 

Pennypitstop and anyone else who thinks we aren't doing a good enough job- I'd like to know what we are doing wrong. The education system has dumbed down.....hilarious!


----------



## REXO (15 Aug 2008)

Last Updated: Friday, August 15, 2008, 06:48 
*Girls outperform boys in key Leaving Cert subjects*

Girls came top of the class in most of the key subjects in this year’s Leaving Certificate, except in honours maths, figures out today reveal.
Of the 1,222 pupils who were awarded an A grade in higher mathematics, 720 were male and 502 were female. 

In applied maths a higher percentage of males also scored an A1 in both the higher and ordinary exams. 

But in the pass paper, girls fared better when it came to A, B, and C grades. 

The official statistics, released by the State Examinations Commission, showed girls secured more As and Bs in higher level Irish. 

They were also awarded a greater number of A1s in the ordinary level exam. 

Elsewhere boys got more A2s while the girls got the majority of Bs. 

The figures were similar in both the higher and ordinary level English papers, with girls gaining more As and Bs then their counterparts. 

And when it came to foreign languages, the girls also took more points, taking the top marks in both higher and ordinary level French and German. 

In the science subjects, the female students again did better in higher physics and biology, while the boys came tops in higher chemistry. 

Surprisingly, more female pupils got As in higher engineering, and made the top grades in accounting, business and economics. 

In the ordinary level equivalents, the male students secured the most points in both engineering and economics.
*PA* 
© 2008 irishtimes.com
ADVERTISEMENT [broken link removed]


----------



## Ash 22 (18 Aug 2008)

Just looking at this year's points and see that primary teaching requires 470 points in Limerick as opposed to Arts 335 in Cork. Quite a difference.


----------



## S.L.F (19 Aug 2008)

The reason education is so important is because if you do well in exams then it proves to employers and yourself how well you can learn stuff.

Lets face facts anybody who has an interest in a particular football team or could quote you chapter and verse about a match last year, or about certain players or managers or bad tackles.

ie a huge amount of information.

Its all to do with taking an interest.

The one person who perks that interest is a teacher.

If you have a bad teacher then the chances of you and your class mates doing badly are higher because you don't have any interest in the subject.

I don't believe that just because a teacher does well in lots of exams means that they can teach.

Personally I never did well in exams and I could never understand how 5 years worth of info was going to be tested in 2 or 3 hours.

I've always thought course work would be the best way to really test someones abilities, done over the course of 5 years you'd get a real idea of peoples potential.


----------



## Ash 22 (19 Aug 2008)

S.L.F said:


> Personally I never did well in exams and I could never understand how 5 years worth of info was going to be tested in 2 or 3 hours.
> 
> I've always thought course work would be the best way to really test someones abilities, done over the course of 5 years you'd get a real idea of peoples potential.


 
Yes its hard to know what other system to use as you say all your info tested in a few hours. Then if you have a day where a student may not be feeling well its hard for her/him to perform to the best of his ability in an exam. Assessments at the end of each school year should give a more accurate account of the pupil.


----------



## S.L.F (19 Aug 2008)

Ash 22 said:


> Assessments at the end of each school year should give a more accurate account of the pupil.



I'd have thought more at the end of every term.


----------



## Ash 22 (19 Aug 2008)

It would be good certainly but whether it will ever happen is another thing.


----------

