# Buying site to build, need advice



## maxjam (25 Jan 2006)

My partner and I have 15000 

we are looking to buy a site.

we reckon it will cost 120,000 for the site and possibly 140,000 for the building.

Combined wages are about 60,000 pa.

Does anyone have experience with seeking mortgages for a site subject to planning permission and building at a later stage??

Which institutions would offer the best deals?

Who would be the best contacts to seek advice about our plans?

Have you any advice or pitfalls you know of that we should look out for?

Thanks


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## maxjam (27 Jan 2006)

bump


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## Couerdelion (30 Jan 2006)

max

I contacted rea (www.rea.ie) and asked them for advice direct.

This is the reponse I received although it wa for my specific questions it may be of help.




			
				REA said:
			
		

> Thank you for your mortgage enquiry, in response to your questions, yes there is a maximum loan to value you can borrow when purchasing a site, the lenders will also only loan you the money on the basis that you are building your house straight away and that you have full planning permission on the site for a house. The lenders vary as to how they operate a mortgage for a self build, in general the lenders will offer anywhere between 70 - 90% on the site cost and anything up to 100% of the build, once the overall cost does not exceed 90% of the value, this is also subject to the usual underwriting criteria. Another item to point out, when you are building there are a number of stages that the builders will be expected to be paid for example the first payment could be expected when the foundation and the walls of the property have been put up.


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## Bamhan (30 Jan 2006)

Why not pay a deposit on a site subject to planning being granted.


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## kerrymaid (30 Jan 2006)

Hi,

For what its worth, this was our experience. We bought a site in kerry while living in dublin, and although we bought the site subject to planning permission, that was the least of our problems. We went to permanent tsb (rathmines) for a mortgage and were turned down. The manager told us, despite us pointing out that we were moving back to kerry, that we were building a holiday home and no amount of talking would change his mind. We then went to a broker (Finance Options) based in killarney and thus began a litany of stress beyond belief. In hindsight, perhaps we were naive, but my advice would be, be prepared to play ball - hard! Ask as many questions that you can possibly think of, research everything many, many times. Finally, i wouldnt recommend building a house and living 200 miles away while the house is being built. Also, dont touch Finance Options with a 100ft barge pole, they blame the customer for their ineptitude!


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## maxjam (31 Jan 2006)

well, for one of the sites we are looking at, we know a developer who wants to build 5 houses on a site but he cant get the permissions, this is his second appeal i think, were hoping that if he gets rejected again he may sell up some of the land to us we can get planning permission v easy as were locals, he cant as he's not local and the land is only zoned for single personal dwelling.

actually heres a question, how do i find out exactly what the status is of someones appeal in this situation as well as what way exactly the land is zoned for houses?? [edit] stupid question, county council is the answer [/edit]


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## Bamhan (31 Jan 2006)

National Irish Bank are one lending institution who deal with mortgages for self building. Require you to have an engineer with indemnity insurance to draw down the mortgage stage payments.
We deal with the Limerick Branch and found them extremely helpful at all times.


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## maxjam (1 Feb 2006)

Will look into NIB. 

Timber frames houses.... been thinking about savings involved in building one...

I was wondering, whats the story with quotes for sq footage that people talk about... 

I assume that its a total cost value, from first sod turned to moving in, averaged per sq footage of floor-space?

If that is so, and i estimate a cost of about €100 per square foot for say 1500 sq ft, in a normal build, thats 150000 so if I budget for 165000 to cover everything with emergency cash for hidden costs i should be okay?

Now if i decide to build same size house but with TIMBER frames (century home etc) isnt that cheaper? how much cheaper though, could I safely revise cost per square foot to say €90, is that too little or too much ???


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## maxjam (7 Feb 2006)

Anyone here know how I would approach finding out the names of land owners in an area with the intention of contacting them in the hope that they may sell a site for a home?


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## abbie (7 Feb 2006)

We dealt with the EBS when we bought a site subject to planning - excellent service - the only advice I would give is to deal with EBS directly and not their agents.  You will also need a good solicitor to work along side them.  Stage payments were dealt with promptly.


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## maxjam (22 Feb 2006)

Cringe.....

we approached a local farmer out of the blue last night, no phonecall to forwarn him or anything, just blitzkrieged his house at 7pm.

Needless to say, my girlfriend being the neighbour did most of the talking, i felt like we were begging, it was a horrible experience, he was nice but not interested in selling as he's trying to get planning permission for his daughter.

He told us one or two other people to approach, including his cousin, but im not sure if girlfriend will go through it again, she was so embarassed that she almost wants to cut and run and just buy a house in an estate. 

This is quite the opposite to what i want. 

Should we have phoned first or is actually calling down to someone the best option? I was thinking calling down is still better as they may fob you off over the phone but in person they might be interested in talking with you a bit longer?

Were going on the trail again this weekend, but i tell you it is a humbling experience, you have to convince them to sell you the land subject to planning permission.... eurrrgggghhhhh

any advice?


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## Lorz (22 Feb 2006)

I think you've your work cut out for you.  You're going to knock on someone's door and persuade them to sell land to you and then expect them to sell subject to planning!  Sorry to disappoint but I don't think it's likely.  I wouldn't try phoning people - they might get suspicious and wonder if you're genuine.  I would think you're best to advertise in the local paper/newsletter and see what response you get from that.

Re: Timber Frame
Contact a few co's, send them your drawings and wait for their price.  I found most of them very efficient - I particularly liked IJM (based in Monaghan I think) and Cygnum (based in Cork)  There are a lot of new co's around offering timber frame but consider the cost of this asset.  Do you really want your house - your home to be their trial run?  I would def. run with a co. that is established a long time and has a good reputation.  You won't really need to worry about insulation but def. invest in good quality sound proofing if you go for timber frame!

H2H


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## maxjam (22 Feb 2006)

yeah, i know where your coming from but with a limited budgetm,the  last resort would be to try and buy without planning permission and take a risk.


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## Lorz (22 Feb 2006)

Couldn't agree more Maxjam - we made that mistake and are still suffering 3 years later!  Do not buy unconditionally - however, we got the site for half the going price so I suppose we can afford to sit on it a little while longer.  I think you might be best to advertise in local paper/newsletter/shop and let them approach you - that way, they might be more open to selling subject to pp.


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## maxjam (22 Feb 2006)

Ok, will take your advice and will advertise in a couple of shop windows. Might shake a few people up who are looking for cash and willing to part with some unused land!


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## woods (22 Feb 2006)

Have you considered asking your local authority. They do provide cheap sites for you to build your own house and it would be at well under market value.


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## maxjam (23 Feb 2006)

my local authority? i didnt know about that!? will look into it, thanks!


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## maxjam (23 Feb 2006)

ok, im going to put up one or two posters... tell me what you think about the text I would put up, probably something along the lines of ....




> *Land For Sale ????*
> 
> *Local couple seeking to buy small plot of land to build a family home on.*
> 
> ...


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## cosy (23 Feb 2006)

Maxjam


You need at least .5 acre if you are building out in the country i.e no sewage laid on


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## Lorz (23 Feb 2006)

Some people can be very cautious - perhaps you should put a landline (if you have one) and your first name.  People like to know who they're dealing with!  I would also consider "to build a family home"


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## maxjam (23 Feb 2006)

Updated.... what you think?

*



Land For Sale ????

Local couple seeking to buy small plot of land to build a family home on.

Will consider anything from 0.5 - 1 acres.

If you are a landowner or you know of anyone in the locality who would be interested in selling land, we are available to meet and discuss with you.

Please, genuine offers only. 

Contact MaxJam at 086-1234567 or 01 8883321

Click to expand...

*


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## danny555 (23 Feb 2006)

that add sounds ok to me anyway,

i am very interested to hear what the local authority have to say about selling you cheap land , i didnt know they would do that , i taught you would need to be unemployed and have a few kids or something to qualifly for that, i would be grateful if you could let me know how that goes for you,


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## maxjam (24 Feb 2006)

danny555 said:
			
		

> that add sounds ok to me anyway,
> 
> i am very interested to hear what the local authority have to say about selling you cheap land , i didnt know they would do that , i taught you would need to be unemployed and have a few kids or something to qualifly for that, i would be grateful if you could let me know how that goes for you,


 

Fingal CO CO have no land available, Meath CO CO do, but its all in kells, dunno what the criteria is, they are sending out app forms tomorrow to us, will update you then!


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## icecool (24 Feb 2006)

i am not a specialist in this area as i deal with overseas but take a look at a company called build store you can find them on the net. They are the leaders in self build in the UK and ireland they will be able to give you advice on funding. Funding a self build is different to a normal mortgage funds are released at verious stages of your build rather than a lump sum. It reduces the risk to the lender. hope this helps.


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## maxjam (9 Mar 2006)

Hi guys,

Myself and my partner are starting to panic, house prices in our area are skyrocketing and were hanging in waiting to buy land, but no1 locally is curerntly selling. 

If we decided to go ahead and buy a house for now, obviously theres a good chance that it would be worth more in 6 months to a years time, but how soon after purchasing a house (we are first time buyers) can you sell it? 

Do you think it would be wise to go ahead and get a mortgage now and then sell up when land is available or to wait a bit longer to see if some land becomes available?? 

were keen on building our own dream home but dont want to end up maybe getting burned by spiralling property prices by not investing soon....


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## emily_moss (10 Mar 2006)

ICS are good for mortgages for self build.  They generally allow a 6 month no payments period.  They will give up to 90%.

EBS are also good.  They will allow 12 months interest only period and also give up to 90%.

As building your home can take some time, and you also have to live somewhere else - one of these options may be favourable.

If you already have a house and are looking to keep it as an investment ICS are not too keen on this - but you can always try it.


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## maxjam (10 Mar 2006)

no we dont have a home yet, were looking to buy one very soon though. Thats why im wondering whould we bite the bullet, buy a house and hold onto it, possibly getting a return when we sell it on in 6 months to a year to purchase land and build a house??? Or should we bide our time, possibly with all the SSIAs coming out putting house prices into orbit? We dont have SSIA's ourselves...


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## shoegal (10 Mar 2006)

Hi Maxjam, be sure to do plenty of research before taking such a big step. If you have your heart set on building be sure to check the planning regs in your area - you may have to fulfill a "housing need" and so if you already have a house this might not be looked upon favourably. Also consider your FTB status.


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## danny555 (10 Mar 2006)

dont panic,if you buy to sell that quick i would say you would be lucky to break even again, even if the house you buy goes up by lets say 30k . by the time you sell it again and you have capital gains payed on the 30k(iam not sure if you will have to pay this if you live in it so maybe some1 on this site can confirm this) and auctioneer payed and legal fee payed what you will be left with will be very small, ............. however if you do buy a house for now(in a housing estate or whatever) at least you will have a house to be happy with for a while and maybe in 3 or 4 years then keep an eye out for a site again, .......... THATS JUST WHAT I THINK ANYWAY


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## maxjam (13 Mar 2006)

Everywhere is selling "local needs only"... whats the story with that, you must be from within a 4Km radius to apply? Bah, stupid rule. Half of the places weve looked at have been empty since the famine... The last people to live here helped build newgrange and yet... not a hope of getting PP.

If my father was originally from an area but moved out 30 years ago, could he apply in that area under the local needs only clause?

Do planning authorities ever make any consideration if you're NOT from an area?

I contacted the county council, they have sites available but they are way out of our local area, the commute would be a nightmare. OverPricedTerracedHellsVille is looming on the horizon... 

ohno 

OH NO 

OH NOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooo.... !

There has GOT to be a solution.... 

im putting my "begging for land" posters up this week.


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## maxjam (14 Mar 2006)

We have located a property on a 1\2 acre, its quite a small bungalow, the agent is looking in the region of 250K but I reckon we’d bargain it down to the 220’s 230’s as it needs work and has had a sale fall through at 235K late last year.


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## maxjam (15 Mar 2006)

We have located a property on a 1\2 acre, its quite a small bungalow, the agent is looking in the region of 250K but I reckon we’d bargain it down to the 220’s 230’s as it needs work and has had a sale fall through at 235K late last year. 

Anyone ever undertook something like this? 

Theyre looking for quick sale which worries me a bit, but with a building on half acre, we think that maybe the problem of getting future planning permission is diminished, would that be a correct assumption to make?? 

I will need it surveyed by an engineer/architect and will need to see if i can submit any plans to change it. 

We are First Time Buyers and have about 25,000 deposit, if we can get plans and submit them were wondering would we have problems seeking to get mortgage for just over 300,000 with intention to buy the property and use the remaining 70 to 80,000 for extending/renovating? 

Here are our intentions....

Were ideally looking to extend the existing building, refurbish the existing interior and incorporate a dormer roof over the entire building. 

Foundations would only required for the extension itself, sewerage, water and electricity are already in place so that saves a packet, the driveway is in already too. 

Surely 80,000 - 100,000 would be plenty to do this if starting with an existing building? Were looking at a wooden frame extension, probably 2 rooms on the ground floor, I assume that the roof, and putting in new windows, refurbishing interiors, and the dormer rooms would be the major expense, im probably completely wrong here thinking i would have enough in that budget, so as ever, your advice is appreciated.


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## morpheus (16 Mar 2006)

You say it needs work and they are trying to get a quick sale... 

If they are pushing a quick sale and its been on the market a while, it may be that you could try and negotiate a price which is a good deal less than €230,000.

I wonder how much work is required? Have you viewed the property yet?

It may be that the building will need to be razed in order to build a new design, it could be difficult to incorporate a dormer roof on an existing property, but im not an engineer, so you will need more advice here.


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## maxjam (16 Mar 2006)

No, havent viewed the property yet. 

The EA told me it was up for 250 in nov, they got bid of 235 but sale fell through, no more interest since. She said they (the owners) really want to sell it off it fast.

Im just wondering would i have enough in 80,000 - 100,000 to do the whole place up if an engineer/architect suggests our plans would suit the existing building...

I dont even know where to begin with getting the site checked out!!


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## maxjam (20 Mar 2006)

Im hoping some of the self builders here may be able to answer the following....

how do i go about getting the plans made to submit to the local authority to apply for planning permission?

Will it be expensive?

Whats involved?


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## Lorz (21 Mar 2006)

Maxjam:-
Are you knocking the existing house and starting from scratch or are you putting on an extension to the existing house?  If you're starting from scratch you could check out the house plan books in Easons and buy the plans direct or check out this great website...

http://www.irish-house-plans.ie/

They have modern house types - bungalow, dormer, two storey and have them classified in types or bedrooms.  Typical cost about €400-€500.  

Alternatively you could contact an Architect - be sure to get someone who is registered with RIAI (http://www.riai.ie/)  Will be more expensive than buying the ready made plans but you will get exactly what you want.

Enjoy!


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## morpheus (21 Mar 2006)

Heres one for you....

Is there a difference if a site for sale is one of the following: 

Site for Sale, subject to Planning Permission *Of Special Interest to Local Applicants.    *

And 

Site for Sale, Subject to planning permission, *Local needs only*


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## paulocon (23 Mar 2006)

maxjam,

Be very careful. With the price of sites in the area you are talking about and the issues with local needs, the existing building is more-than-likely not worth a whole lot. 100k WILL NOT go far in renovating an old building - a project like that can literally eat money and can cost as much as building from scratch due to the nature of the work..

There are plenty of people moving from Dublin and surrounds who are looking for a site on which to build but are blocked by local needs. I think the sale of an old farmhouse/shed as a 'residential' property may be a way of bypassing local needs issues (I could be wrong). 

A site close to me recently went on the market for 170,000. Was talking to a guy from Dublin who said he'd have no problem paying the price if he had the money.

Not sure how strongly enforced the local needs rule are by the way judging by the 'locals' who have recently bought sites and built in our particluar area.

Have you checked any of the local papers for sites? If you were willing to move a bit further North (Cavan area for example), I know that there are a lot of sites available around there at far more realistic prices..

Anyway, best of luck and let me know how you get on.....


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## maxjam (28 Mar 2006)

were still looking at sites, but now were begining to get cold feet and are thinking of buying a house and in 2 or 3 yrs with some savings we'll buy land and build.

If i fill in application and send it back to PTSB but currently there are car repayments on it, will they look at this and because i will have car cleared in a month, give me a higher mortgage approval? unfortunately my car payments are on most recent bank statement and we need approval in principal soonest so we can find either a house or the land. 

We still arent sure how much we can borrow...


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## paulocon (29 Mar 2006)

maxjam,

Was just speaking to someone from Meath County Council and they were telling me that they now hold Pre-Planning clinics- basically an opportunity for people looking to build in the area to meet with the planners...

Next round of clinics are on over April. I have the ad that was placed in the Meath Chronicle (should be repeated). PM me and I can email you a copy...


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## legend99 (29 Mar 2006)

be aware that once you own a house at all you more or less blow away your 'housing need' so it weakens you in terms of a need to get plannning.
It surprises me actually that politicians have not stepped in more to wrest back control of the planning process just so that they could decide on who gets planning...


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## maxjam (29 Mar 2006)

ARGH!!! its an awful situation... the price of land is bloody mental. Thanks for help anyway, we will keep on looking for that elusive 1/2 acre.
hmmm... found an acre for sale 150K local farmer.

will have to talk to him. Do the home builders here reckon we could build a nice house on a 150,000 budget in the louth meath border area????


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## paulocon (5 Apr 2006)

maxjam,

Totally depends on size/style of house you are building. From talking to some people building at the moment, it mightn't go the whole way. Spoke yo one guy who built 4 years ago and is building again and he said the costs have rocketed. General advice seems to be to do your sums very carefully before diving in.


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## maxjam (5 Apr 2006)

Well , were not looking to build a huge house. 1200 - 1300 sq ft smaller if needs be, but one we can add to in the future. its more the idea of being out of an estate on our piece of realestate. having grown up in an estate, I would buy land and live in a mobile home if necessary until i could afford to build !!!


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## Winnie (5 Apr 2006)

Personally, I don't think building a house should be such a rushed project - if this is going to be your home for life, you need to take you time.
Don't just buy a site becuase its cheap & you can afford it - you need to make sure that you want to live in the area......
Building houses isnt as cheap as it used to be - if going with a builder €100 sq ft is the least you will have to pay - I have heard of the price being as high as €170 sq ft in some cases.  Even direct labour works out about €80 sq ft. 
I dont think it is advisable to build small now & then put on an extension later - works out more expensive in the long term

I think you need to figure out if you can actually afford this?  Mayb you just need to accept the fact that you will have to buy a house in a housing estate......don't mean to be harsh but €60k pa income seems a bit low to me if you have to buy site & build house....I do have a friend who built a house on similar income but they built on family land & did most of the work themselves.  

You really need to budget - figure out your max mortgage you can afford (inlcuding if interest rates go up - I usually stress test 3-4% just to be on the safe side) & go from there........

Good luck


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