# Would I get welfare if I set up my own business



## damien84 (7 May 2009)

Hi All,

I hope that this is in the correct forum.

I am employed in a Construction Related Discipline and obviously very concerned about my job.

I see an opportunity to set up a business on a part time basis to build up for the future.

However I am concerned if i set up my part time venture and then I am made redundant from my full time job in the near future, that I will not be eligible for the Dole?

I was thinking if I set up as a Company and paid myself no salary that i might be ok?

Anyone got any advice or pointers, it would be much appreicated.


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## g1g (7 May 2009)

Has to be an ltd company and not self employed to get dole etc.


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## mac781 (8 May 2009)

Be careful.

They are using the fact that we are shareholders in our own company to deny us dole.

Give em an inch and they will deny you support. The system is warped- anti-business.


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## BaileyMc (8 May 2009)

The reason proprietary directors of limited companies do not qualify for alot of SW payments (including JB) is that for PRSI purposes they are classed as self-employed i.e. paying S class stamp as opposed to A class.  

S class is a reduced rate (all be it that there is no max threshold like there is for A) and the company does not have any contributions to make.


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## g1g (8 May 2009)

I think its awful that self employed people aren't entitled to dole or sick benefits.  After all they have been employing people for years and paying employer and employee prsi. Would turn anyone off having a chance at their own business.


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## mac781 (8 May 2009)

jaybird said:


> You evidently do not fit the criteria for Jobseekers Supports. The rules are applicable to all and are well publicised. Nobody is using anything to get at you.



Today they used the fact that we have a company to deny us basic protection (i.e. money for  food and mortgage interest supplement)

We - 3 directors of a company- havent been paid anything at all in over a month.  There is no money in the company and no jobs coming in- although we are trying to keep things going. We employed 5 people four months ago. Last month-the day I went to sign on and was told that I had no automatic entitlement to anything, I wrote a cheque for 8,000 for p30 income tax for income earned from january to march. Sickening.

I have a mortgage, a pregnant wife in college and no money. I have been told by the community welfare officer that I will not get any dole- despite what it says on citizens information.

My two colleagues got letters today saying that they will not get any money from the health board- because the company still exists (although there is no money coming into it.

We therefore have to shut the company down in order to get any support from the state.

I am very angry. we exported. We created jobs. we paid lots of tax. When it goes wrong they tell us that the tax we paid was not worth a much as an employees (this class s thing). 

We have no safety net. This is a scary place to be despite what you say is publicised.

I am in the process of setting up another company- but am so disheartened by the way we are being left out to dry (and the fact that they will probably use this against us too) that we may just pack this one in also.


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## BaileyMc (8 May 2009)

I don't believe that there is anything to stop a self-employed person/company director applying for means tested JA in the evnt of unemployment and resources being low.  Open to correction though!


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## quarterfloun (8 May 2009)

In the uk there is a benefit for "self employed - no income". my friend is a budding writer and is busy writing scripts, getting in front of people etc. but until he sells his first script he has no money coming in..there may be an avenue you can pursue.....


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## damien84 (9 May 2009)

Thanks everyone or your replies.

Just in two minds about whether to set up a business or not. The way things are going my full time Job wont last unless things imrove quickly and the last thing I need is to be out of work and not able to claim any benefits


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## BaileyMc (9 May 2009)

Damien,

Just on another point your entitlement to benefits are not determined by your status now but by your stamps paid in the relevant year, which is two years before the current tax year i.e. for 2009 the year considered is 2007 (or 2007 and 2006 in certain cases depending on the situation).

Of course, if you were to set up a company and were actively trading you would be considered employed as you would be if you were self employed and not entitled to JB/JA unless working less than three days a week.  Even then I'm not sure how easy it would be to convince SW that you were only working three days where it is your own company/business.

Have you considered approaching the local enterprise board?  There are a number of grants and other assitance that may be beneficial in helping you start out.


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## mac781 (9 May 2009)

jaybird said:


> .
> 
> Nobody is using anything against you, you are not being discriminated against. We have a strong welfare safety net in this country, nobody starves in Ireland. Stop moaning about it and do something useful about your situation.



hang on a second- thanks for the advice but I dont appreciate the negativity. Its clear that you havent read (or understood) what Ive said and you are also factually wrong.

We have letters from our CWO to prove it and will be issuing p45s on monday.


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## mac781 (9 May 2009)

damien84 said:


> Thanks everyone or your replies.
> 
> Just in two minds about whether to set up a business or not. The way things are going my full time Job wont last unless things imrove quickly and the last thing I need is to be out of work and not able to claim any benefits



Dont let me put you off- if you can find paying customers definitely go for it but go step by step. Sign on, dont tell them any thing about the new venture, and see if you can line up enough cash to make it viable.

When we set up the business we all had to sign off once we formally set up the company. Apparently the system has changed but you could find the reality different to whats on citizens information. In our experience the system does not have the flexibility to deal with grey areas. 

As someone else mentions here the Enterprise Boards can be great but things have tightened up with them also (we got a load of money and help from ours)

Best of luck with it.


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## mac781 (9 May 2009)

wow you're clearly busy on a saturday night. At least I have an excuse- I'm broke!
You also seem to love sticking the boot into people who are going through a hard time. 

How do you know so much about the social welfare system anyway? Unless you work there or have wound down a company recently you're talking thjrough your hat.

I know about it because Ive been in the same situation as the guy who started the thread (i was on the dole when i set up the business 4 years ago), and am also coming out the other side of that and there are issues he should prepare for if possible.

And -for the last time - CWOs (community welfare officers) and SWIs (social welfare inspectors in case you done know) ARE using the existance of a business to deny benefits- regardless of means. This is what is happening in practise. I have just experienced this and "moaning" about it is relevant to this guys question and I would argue to the existance of a whole class of small companies in IReland 

Benefit fraud? NOt at all. Delaying setting up the business makes sense and is good advice.  

Again- you havent a clue.


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## Gervan (9 May 2009)

Jaybird says 





> You are entitled to apply for means tested Jobseekers Allowance, which you will get if your company is wound up and you do not have any other income.


 but this would take months. On no income.


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## mac781 (10 May 2009)

Gervan said:


> Jaybird says  but this would take months. On no income.



Yes exactly. And there is a possibility that at the end of that time you would be declined JA, because you own an operational business.


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## rubywalsh (10 May 2009)

jaybird said:


> This is benefit fraud, lying to welfare to obtain money.





jaybird said:


> I think you are the one being negative here. What exactly do you think is wrong that when you are let go from your job and you can claim Jobseekers benefit ( which you are entitled to since you have paid your taxes) and at the smae time try and start up a business for your self instead of sitting on your butt and doing nothing cos there ain't many jobs out there? The poster is saying thread warily.
> In my veiw nothing, it is the same as long term unemployed getting back to work allowance etc. The system is wrong in this case! We need small business in this country, it is how we will get out of this mess and we should try and help those that try and set up.
> 
> 
> ...


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## mac781 (10 May 2009)

jaybird said:


> This is benefit fraud, lying to welfare to obtain money.



You are wrong. This is another example of your lack of understanding of how the system works- if you havent formally set up a business how could you be lying about it? 




jaybird said:


> You keep saying that people are "using things against you". Nobody is using anything, the rules are clear and well publicised, and are not open to the kind of manipulation you assign. Get over your paranoia.


 
Again you are wrong. Ive outlined repeatedly what is happening now to people with operatonal businesses that are not generating income who are trying to claim JA and mortgage. I will not do it again. UNless you can give examples of people who are claiming and tying to get a business off the ground/ keep it going I suggest you shut up about it. This thread is becoming boring-you keep repeating the same things without backing them up. I will scan in the letter from the WCO so that people who are genuinely interested in this (and maybe policy makers) can see what is happening. 


  You are full of bad advice. Get off the stage.


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## mac781 (10 May 2009)

> Of course you cannot claim unemployment benefits while you have an operating business, you imbecile, because YOU ARE NOT UNEMPLOYED!


Who is the imbecile here? Is this not the purpose of this whole thread? Have you any idea what we have actually been discussing? 

I know how the system works- I have explained it to you repeatedly. Who are you telling?  I also know the reasons and have been saying that it is unfair and counter productive. Has this sunk in yet? 

Why am I spelling this out again to this idiot? Maybe I could be clearer.. 

My argument is that the system as it is forces people to shut down their businesses in order to claim money for food. This is happening on a grand scale now. 

I am calling for reform of the social welfare system for self employed/ proprietary directors. A friend of mine works for a large consultancy and apparently the civil service was offered a free online infrastructure to manage white collar/ self employed situation. They turned it down and what we have now is a dogs dinners of a thing that shuts down business instead of helping people set them up and get through the quiet times.

And yes I have been onto my politician about it. And this is why I am having to spell this out to you and the person who started this thread.



> You are simply holding out your hand looking for benefits that you neither paid for or are entitled too,


We did pay for it and should be entitled to some protections without having to shut down everything we've worked for. We created wealth and paid many tens of thousands of euro in tax last year. Dont tell me I didnt pay for it or shouldnt be entitled to it. This is what needs changing in the system




> It is not very surprising that your business failed if you cannot understand such simple things as entitlement to welfare payments.


ouch. Well at least I had a go. And my business was very successful, and could be again if we didnt have to shut it down to get us through a quiet patch. 

What are you anyway, a student or public sector worker or similar?
Your opinions are way up your ass there.


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## mac781 (10 May 2009)

jaybird said:


> In what way is it not benefit fraud to sign on, but to be making money from paying customers while not declaring this income? .



hmmmmm...

Just had a look at your profile there and you are a "crunchy student mama". You also know a LOT about the dole which makes you an...unemployed student?



If you knew anything about commerce you'd know that the guy could do his research and do a trial runwithout formally setting things up in a limited company or similar.


By the way- Guess who pays for your JB  or JA or whatever scheme it is you're on? I find your attitude towards all this offensive. The sooner they bring back fees for the likes of you the better.


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## mac781 (10 May 2009)

rubywalsh said:


> We need small business in this country, it is how we will get out of this mess and we should try and help those that try and set up.




Agreed 100%.


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## Gervan (11 May 2009)

I hesitate to draw fire down upon myself; everything seems very heated.
 But the fact is we cannot choose which type of Prsi to pay. If mac781 had been given the choice you could now be scornful of him for not selecting the option with unemployment cover. As directors or self-employed we are not allowed to pay more and have that option. I think that is what is unfair.


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## rubywalsh (11 May 2009)

Jaybird you seem to have one law for yourself and seem to have no qualms taking JB benefit when clearly from one of your posts you would voluntarily give up work to mind your children in which case you WOULD NOT BE AVAILABLE FOR FULL TIME EMPLOYMENT!


<<<posted by Jaybird in response to Am I entitled to Jobseekers Benefit>>I'd be interested in hearing how you get on, as am in a similar position myself, at the end of maternity leave and a job that will barely pay for childcare for the 2 little guys, never mind the commute


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## mac781 (11 May 2009)

jaybird said:


> I am a student AND I have my own business. I pay fees for my course, large fees as it happens, and get no grants or loans. I also pay my own mortgage, and am not on here bleating about how the government won't pay it for me even though I'm not entitled. So I am clearly doing a lot better than you.



Wow- so self satisfied. Yet so unpleasant. And I am talking to you Jaybird. For someone so apparently happy you project nothing but bile and bitterness.

To feel the need to insult strangers- you must be pretty frustrated with your life. I wouldnt like to meet you here in 10 years- you'll have matured nicely by then I would think.

I will continue to offer the benefit  of my experience to guys like Damien84. I suggest you keep your opinions to yourself. You're a horrible piece of work.


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## mac781 (11 May 2009)

rubywalsh said:


> Jaybird you seem to have one law for yourself and seem to have no qualms taking JB benefit when clearly from one of your posts you would voluntarily give up work to mind your children in which case you WOULD NOT BE AVAILABLE FOR FULL TIME EMPLOYMENT!
> 
> 
> <<<posted by Jaybird in response to Am I entitled to Jobseekers Benefit>>I'd be interested in hearing how you get on, as am in a similar position myself, at the end of maternity leave and a job that will barely pay for childcare for the 2 little guys, never mind the commute



interesting post and doesnt surprise me one bit. Thanks for the quote.


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## rubywalsh (11 May 2009)

Really? Boards.ie reveals a lot more about you. The Mods should have banned you for insulting another poster here. Enjoy running that fairytale business of yours.




jaybird said:


> Oh and ruby, nice try! But I never did go for JB, I started my own business instead!


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## Brendan Burgess (11 May 2009)

Folks

I am closing this thread as it has become a Letting Off Steam thread and personally abusive in breach of the Posting Guidelines.

Brendan


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