# Tenants won't allow viewings



## dodo (30 Jun 2022)

Tenants given 4 months notice couple of weeks back and are not happy. So they won't allow estate agent to show viewings of the house so pointless putting it up for sale, as is their right .
Just wondering anyone had similar situation and can advise if they has to wait the full notice period. 
Also is there anything i need to do in the meantime to avoid any issue on day they due to move out. Eg if they have no place to go etc. I do have  empathy them.


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## DazedInPontoon (30 Jun 2022)

Offer them compensation in exchange for allowing viewings, or agree to delay the date they leave? It might also help their sentiment towards you which may help reduce issues at the time they leave.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (1 Jul 2022)

dodo said:


> Also is there anything i need to do in the meantime to avoid any issue on day they due to move out.


Offer them a month's rent as a rebate if they facilitate viewings. It's peanuts in the scheme of a house sale.




dodo said:


> I do have empathy them.


It's an awful situation as the rental market is so tight at the moment. This is a problem money can help to solve, and if they facilitate viewings you could also offer a month's rebate if they vacate promptly.


You will be down thousands if not tens of thousands of they overhold and go to the RTB to string it out. Maybe they know this, maybe they don't, but in your shoes I'd try to secure their early cooperation as it is far better than the alternative.


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## Zebedee (1 Jul 2022)

I had a similar problem. I offered 2xdeposit back and they were very cooperative and even cleaned the house before each series of viewings. 

It was money well spent.


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## Paul O Mahoney (1 Jul 2022)

I must say that I find the idea of paying tenants extra money to allow anything is just going to make the situation worse.

Once its known that the practice is common more and more will be demanding more and more " kickbacks ".

I would presume that the extra payments aren't tax deductible for the landlord and might be taxable income for the tenant?

This is essentially extortion by tenants and I thought extortion was illegal.
I understand why people are doing it ,but wouldn't it be similar to issue notice to quit and then sell the property?


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## Sarenco (1 Jul 2022)

In the OP’s shoes, I would just wait until the tenants are gone and the property is well presented before starting viewings.

Viewing a property with tenants present would put me right off as a potential purchaser.


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## Leo (1 Jul 2022)

Paul O Mahoney said:


> I would presume that the extra payments aren't tax deductible for the landlord and might be taxable income for the tenant?


It's not so much a payment to the tenants as a refund of rent, thus reducing the income that would be declared. 

The tenants are not obliged to facilitate viewings and their explicit permission is required to enter the property, so this might be the best solution for all concerned, particularly where the tenants didn't chose to leave.


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## Paul O Mahoney (1 Jul 2022)

Leo said:


> It's not so much a payment to the tenants as a refund of rent, thus reducing the income that would be declared.
> 
> The tenants are not obliged to facilitate viewings and their explicit permission is required to enter the property, so this might be the best solution for all concerned, particularly where the tenants didn't chose to leave.


If they are not obliged to facilitate viewings then, by facilitating them and getting money or cost rebates would I would think be income?
They are providing a service.

From a landlord point of view the rent contract will stipulate what rent is to be paid , if they simply returned 11 months and reduced their taxable income without receipts how would the landlord explain this ?

And Revenue are very specific on what is allowed as expenses against rental income.

There is still no guarantee that the tenants in the above situation will leave if the house is sold, notice to quit is probably the best way to deal with this and other legal remedies.


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## Leo (1 Jul 2022)

Paul O Mahoney said:


> From a landlord point of view the rent contract will stipulate what rent is to be paid , if they simply returned 11 months and reduced their taxable income without receipts how would the landlord explain this ?


Exactly as they explain income today, and the same way you would complete your returns if the tenant didn't pay all rent due. You don't pay tax on the rent as stated in the contract, you pay tax on rent received. Whatever is stated in the contract doesn't come into it.

In terms of taxation, a landlord refunding some rent paid is just the same as another business offering a discount. The net is what Revenue care about.


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## DazedInPontoon (1 Jul 2022)

Paul O Mahoney said:


> This is essentially extortion by tenants and I thought extortion was illegal.


Are the tenants not paying for the exclusive and private use of the property?

Can I visit your home today with my friends and have a look around, including your bedroom? or would that put you out in some way?

There is also of course the added insult that you're effectively being asked to put yourself out so that you can help the landlord replace you which you didn't want to happen in the first place. It's like being fired from your job but also asked to work unpaid overtime to help induct your replacement.


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## Paul O Mahoney (1 Jul 2022)

DazedInPontoon said:


> Are the tenants not paying for the exclusive and private use of the property?
> 
> Can I visit your home today with my friends and have a look around, including your bedroom? or would that put you out in some way?
> 
> There is also of course the added insult that you're effectively being asked to put yourself out so that you can help the landlord replace you which you didn't want to happen in the first place. It's like being fired from your job but also asked to work unpaid overtime to help induct your replacement.


They aren't obliged to allow viewers in, I understand that , but getting effectively paid for this is income. 

I'm totally against both scenarios, viewers being allowed in,  and landlords paying kickbacks to facilitate it.


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## DazedInPontoon (1 Jul 2022)

Paul O Mahoney said:


> They aren't obliged to allow viewers in, I understand that , but getting effectively paid for this is income.


Who cares, just give them a discount on the months rent. I don't think revenue are going to have a team of 10 detectives on the case over a trivial amount. Why even think about that?

I agree it's probably just better if the landlord waits until they're gone, but if they're really in a hurry it's something to consider.


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## Paul O Mahoney (1 Jul 2022)

DazedInPontoon said:


> Who cares, just give them a discount on the months rent. I don't think revenue are going to have a team of 10 detectives on the case over a trivial amount. Why even think about that?
> 
> I agree it's probably just better if the landlord waits until they're gone, but if they're really in a hurry it's something to consider.


Perhaps Revenue won't be concerned with a few cases, but if it becomes normal practice they might develop a different view.

And it's just example of correct taxation not being paid, people might what to shrug their shoulders and look the other way but I think people should pay the taxes that they are meant to pay.


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## Leo (1 Jul 2022)

Paul O Mahoney said:


> And it's just example of correct taxation not being paid, people might what to shrug their shoulders and look the other way but I think people should pay the taxes that they are meant to pay.


But they are not meant to pay tax on discounted revenue.

You might not like the practice, but that doesn't mean it is a violation.


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## Paul O Mahoney (1 Jul 2022)

Leo said:


> But they are not meant to pay tax on discounted revenue.
> 
> You might not like the practice, but that doesn't mean it is a violation.


Giving a discount so the tenants allow viewings, is essentially paying the tenants to allow the viewings. If there were no viewings there's no discount. 

The discount is dependent on viewings being allowed and they happen. 

If I buy something at a 50% I must carry out a simple contract with the seller,  ie buy the product.


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## DazedInPontoon (1 Jul 2022)

This is why people hate landlords


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## Paul O Mahoney (1 Jul 2022)

DazedInPontoon said:


> This is why people hate landlords


Paying tenants to facilitate viewings? I would have thought it would be other reasons both rational and irrational.


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## PebbleBeach2020 (1 Jul 2022)

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Giving a discount so the tenants allow viewings, is essentially paying the tenants to allow the viewings. If there were no viewings there's no discount.
> 
> The discount is dependent on viewings being allowed and they happen.
> 
> If I buy something at a 50% I must carry out a simple contract with the seller,  ie buy the product.


explain to me so, a rental at €1,000 a month and the tenants only paid €500. What does the landlord pay tax on, rental income as per the contract or rental income received?

explain to me so, a rental at €2,000 a month and the landlord offers a 2% discount is the rent is paid on or before the 2nd day of each month (so, €1,960 paid or €2,000 paid). What does the landlord pay tax on, rental income as per the contract (€2,000) or rental income received €1,960)?


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## Paul O Mahoney (1 Jul 2022)

PebbleBeach2020 said:


> explain to me so, a rental at €1,000 a month and the tenants only paid €500. What does the landlord pay tax on, rental income as per the contract or rental income received?
> 
> explain to me so, a rental at €2,000 a month and the landlord offers a 2% discount is the rent is paid on or before the 2nd day of each month (so, €1,960 paid or €2,000 paid). What does the landlord pay tax on, rental income as per the contract (€2,000) or rental income received €1,960)?


But none of those scenarios are paying the tenants for allowing the landlord to get people to view the property.

I have given discounts to tenants but always sent a written note of the new arrangement to them.

I mean any landlord could keep a months rent for themselves and say I gave a months discount because they allowed viewings apparently the Revenue wouldn't be bothered.


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## Leo (1 Jul 2022)

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Giving a discount so the tenants allow viewings, is essentially paying the tenants to allow the viewings. If there were no viewings there's no discount.
> 
> The discount is dependent on viewings being allowed and they happen.


Well, it's a refund or deferral of money they have paid in rent, meaning the landlord is not obliged to pay tax on it.  If a shop gives you a discount on a product, do you feel obliged to call up revenue seeking to pay income tax on that discount?



Paul O Mahoney said:


> If I buy something at a 50% I must carry out a simple contract with the seller, ie buy the product.


That doesn't really make sense, if you're buying something the formation of a contract requires consideration, it's only formed when payment is handed over. But that's covered under the Sale & Supply of Goods legislation, not really anything to do with taxation.


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## Paul O Mahoney (1 Jul 2022)

Leo said:


> Well, it's a refund or deferral of money they have paid in rent, meaning the landlord is not obliged to pay tax on it.  If a shop gives you a discount on a product, do you feel obliged to call up revenue seeking to pay income tax on that discount?
> 
> 
> That doesn't really make sense, if you're buying something the formation of a contract requires consideration, it's only formed when payment is handed over. But that's covered under the Sale & Supply of Goods legislation, not really anything to do with taxation.


But getting a discount buying something isn't reducing my taxable income is it?

And giving a rebate of rent after the tenants provided access for viewings , which they are not obliged to do, is essentially consideration for allowing the access.


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## Leo (1 Jul 2022)

Paul O Mahoney said:


> But getting a discount buying something isn't reducing my taxable income is it?


Exactly! It's not income so you don't pay tax on it. It's exactly the same as a discount on rent, it isn't income so the tenant doesn't pay tax on that. A landlord is entitled to reduce rent for any reason they choose. doing so does not create a taxable event.


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## Paul O Mahoney (1 Jul 2022)

Leo said:


> Exactly! It's not income so you don't pay tax on it. It's exactly the same as a discount on rent, it isn't income so the tenant doesn't pay tax on that. A landlord is entitled to reduce rent for any reason they choose. doing so does not create a taxable event.


"For any reason they chose" I find that hard to believe Leo.

But you still fail the recognise that no discount would be given in this case if the tenants didn't allow access to the property. The reduction in rent is payment for a service,  not a reduction for early payment of rent or the tenants falling on hard times it's a contract.


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## Sconeandjam (1 Jul 2022)

OP why do you not wait until your tenants have gone? The house will be in order and you will not have to worry about tenants being in the way?


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## peemac (2 Jul 2022)

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Giving a discount so the tenants allow viewings, is essentially paying the tenants to allow the viewings. If there were no viewings there's no discount.
> 
> The discount is dependent on viewings being allowed and they happen.
> 
> If I buy something at a 50% I must carry out a simple contract with the seller,  ie buy the product.


I'd disagree.

The discount / waiver on a months rent is compensation for the hassle and interruption caused by the viewings which the tenants are not obliged to facilitate.

Once it is agreed that it is compensation for the interruption, then I would be of the opinion that no tax would be due. The landlord also is only losing the net amount after tax as he/she would not be getting rental income for that month


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## Gordon Gekko (2 Jul 2022)

There’s no way that this would give rise to tax. What’s happening from a commercial perspective is simple; the rent was, say, €2,000 a month. The tenant is saying that for a tenancy where potential buyers and estate agents will be traipsing through his or her home, the rent should be, say, €1,500 a month. And then the landlord is agreeing. They’re not two distinct products or services. The parties are agreeing that the price for being left alone is different to the price for being hassled.


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## JohnJay (3 Jul 2022)

A number of years ago, I was a tenant in a house that went up for sale and I agreed to viewings. It was awfully uncomfortable, having strangers trampling through your home (yes, rented properties can also be homes) was just not nice. 
Let the tenants move out, tidy the place and then put it on the market. Its nothing more than showing a bit of respect to the people who have been paying your mortgage.


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## Blackrock1 (3 Jul 2022)

JohnJay said:


> A number of years ago, I was a tenant in a house that went up for sale and I agreed to viewings. It was awfully uncomfortable, having strangers trampling through your home (yes, rented properties can also be homes) was just not nice.
> Let the tenants move out, tidy the place and then put it on the market. Its nothing more than showing a bit of respect to the people who have been paying your mortgage.


Eh what do you think happens when anyone sells a house ? You have viewings, strangers traipsing through it.


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## JohnJay (3 Jul 2022)

Blackrock1 said:


> Eh what do you think happens when anyone sells a house ? You have viewings, strangers traipsing through it.


I assume you mean if an owner/occupier was selling a house? There is a big difference here - an owner occupier will have several hundred thousand lodged in to their account at the end of the sale - a tenant will have to go hunting for somewhere new to live in the current impossible market. The owner/occupier will also be paying the estate agent, the tenant will not have that relationship with the agent. He who pays the piper, etc.

On a side note - as a buyer, I would be a little uncomfortable viewing a house with sitting tenants - even if I'm told they are on notice. I'd always be a bit worried about the "what if's" of the tenant refusing to move before the closing date.

And point no. 3 - do you really want your agent to go to the trouble of taking photos, complete with a tenants jocks hanging on the radiator, for daft.ie?


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## Michelle_B (3 Jul 2022)

Sconeandjam said:


> OP why do you not wait until your tenants have gone? The house will be in order and you will not have to worry about tenants being in the way?


I am in a similar situation having decided to sell my investment property in Dublin, a 2 bed apartment. I am issuing formal 6 months notice to the tenants tomorrow having already informally advised them that I am selling. They allowed an estate agent in last week to perform a valuation. The agent is suggesting that i wait until the end of the notice period or until they move out before I sell. But I feel that they could be there for the full 6 months and I am concerned about waiting 6 months and perhaps the market crashing ? Also having to pay the mortgage myself for a few months and possibly the next management fee if that sale is not completed by next April. Any thoughts anyone ?


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## JohnJay (3 Jul 2022)

Michelle_B said:


> I am in a similar situation having decided to sell my investment property in Dublin, a 2 bed apartment. I am issuing formal 6 months notice to the tenants tomorrow having already informally advised them that I am selling. They allowed an estate agent in last week to perform a valuation. The agent is suggesting that i wait until the end of the notice period or until they move out before I sell. But I feel that they could be there for the full 6 months and I am concerned about waiting 6 months and perhaps the market crashing ? Also having to pay the mortgage myself for a few months and possibly the next management fee if that sale is not completed by next April. Any thoughts anyone ?


You could always have a friendly chat with your tenants and offer them a bonus if they move out early. While its unlikely that they will find somewhere new to live quickly in this current market, you never know unless you ask. 
By the way, if you do pay next years management fee, the new owner will pay you back whatever the % of the year is remaining.


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## dem_syhp (3 Jul 2022)

JohnJay said:


> A number of years ago, I was a tenant in a house that went up for sale and I agreed to viewings. It was awfully uncomfortable, having strangers trampling through your home (yes, rented properties can also be homes) was just not nice.
> Let the tenants move out, tidy the place and then put it on the market. Its nothing more than showing a bit of respect to the people who have been paying your mortgage.


Rented properties are homes, the tenants homes.   

I sold an apartment a few years back, waited for tenant to move out before putting it up for sale.   An almost identical apartment was put up for sale about 3 months earlier, with tenants in place.  Tenants will not stage a property so it looks well - nor should you expect them to, its a pain showing you're own property having to clean up, vacate the place at short notice.  I remember looking at their photos online, with gym equipment in the dining area, looked really cramped.  

Mine sold for approximately 20% more, same square footage.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (4 Jul 2022)

dem_syhp said:


> I sold an apartment a few years back, waited for tenant to move out before putting it up for sale. An almost identical apartment was put up for sale about 3 months earlier, with tenants in place. Tenants will not stage a property so it looks well - nor should you expect them to, its a pain showing you're own property having to clean up, vacate the place at short notice. I remember looking at their photos online, with gym equipment in the dining area, looked really cramped.


When we bought our house the viewings had the sitting tenants present watching TV or having their dinner. It was a bit weird and I'm sure it put some purchasers off.

We weren't in a chain so we could afford a delay, but we wouldn't have bid otherwise.


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## Leo (4 Jul 2022)

Paul O Mahoney said:


> "For any reason they chose" I find that hard to believe Leo.


Nonetheless it is absolutely true, there is nothing in the tenancy legislation to suggest otherwise. 


Paul O Mahoney said:


> But you still fail the recognise that no discount would be given in this case if the tenants didn't allow access to the property. The reduction in rent is payment for a service, not a reduction for early payment of rent or the tenants falling on hard times it's a contract.


The reason is immaterial. It's still a reduction in rental income and both parties are perfectly entitled to treat it as such.


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## Sconeandjam (4 Jul 2022)

Michelle_B said:


> I am in a similar situation having decided to sell my investment property in Dublin, a 2 bed apartment. I am issuing formal 6 months notice to the tenants tomorrow having already informally advised them that I am selling. They allowed an estate agent in last week to perform a valuation. The agent is suggesting that i wait until the end of the notice period or until they move out before I sell. But I feel that they could be there for the full 6 months and I am concerned about waiting 6 months and perhaps the market crashing ? Also having to pay the mortgage myself for a few months and possibly the next management fee if that sale is not completed by next April. Any thoughts anyone ?


Make sure you completed the forms that are the Rtb site and get the forms signed infront of solicitor or commissioner of oaths. Make sure you give an extra few days in move out date to allow for delay in postage. You will need to send a copy to Rtb after the move out date. I sent it in error sooner than expected when I issued the tenant notice but they replied that it will not affect the outcome. I paid swift post so I have proof it was delivered. I know you can hand deliver but wanted to have proof that someone else delivered it.

Why not contact your bank have see what options you gave there? Maybe interest only or mortgage holiday? Then before your tenants move out and apply to pay interest only for say 6 months until the apartment is sold. It will not cost you too much in the scheme of things.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (4 Jul 2022)

Sconeandjam said:


> Make sure you completed the forms that are the Rtb site and get the forms signed infront of solicitor or commissioner of oaths.


That is complete overkill. Just sign the letter yourself, take a scan of the signed copies and addressed envelope, and send it by registered post.

That will be enough to satisfy anyone that they were sent and delivered.


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## cremeegg (4 Jul 2022)

Leo said:


> You don't pay tax on the rent as stated in the contract, you pay tax on rent received. Whatever is stated in the contract doesn't come into it.


I don't think this is entirely correct. 

Tax is payable on the rent due, rather than on the rent received. If the rent received is less than the rent due, the difference can be expensed as a bad debt, subject to the usual rules which govern deduction of bad debts.

In other words Revenue are entitled to ask what efforts the landlord made to recover the amounts due, and if they are unhappy to disallow the claim for bad debt as a deduction.


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## Leo (5 Jul 2022)

cremeegg said:


> Tax is payable on the rent due, rather than on the rent received. If the rent received is less than the rent due, the difference can be expensed as a bad debt, subject to the usual rules which govern deduction of bad debts.


You can enter it as a discount with no expectation to chase it. The rent payable on a period with a change in tenancy will always be some combination of the rent as stated in the first lease, a period without rental income during the changeover and then the rent as per the new lease.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (5 Jul 2022)

cremeegg said:


> In other words Revenue are entitled to ask what efforts the landlord made to recover the amounts due, and if they are unhappy to disallow the claim for bad debt as a deduction.


For the typical mom'n'pop landlord with say €10k of rental profits do you think Revenue will care?

Under audit my working assumption would be that once gross rental income matches what is recorded on bank statements they won't care.


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## cremeegg (5 Jul 2022)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> For the typical mom'n'pop landlord with say €10k of rental profits do you think Revenue will care?


No I don't think Revenue would care, but that is a different question.



NoRegretsCoyote said:


> Under audit my working assumption would be that once gross rental income matches what is recorded on bank statements they won't care.


That might be too casual, once an audit is started I think they would be fairly thorough.


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## Paul O Mahoney (5 Jul 2022)

cremeegg said:


> I don't think this is entirely correct.
> 
> Tax is payable on the rent due, rather than on the rent received. If the rent received is less than the rent due, the difference can be expensed as a bad debt, subject to the usual rules which govern deduction of bad debts.
> 
> In other words Revenue are entitled to ask what efforts the landlord made to recover the amounts due, and if they are unhappy to disallow the claim for bad debt as a deduction.


Well we pay preliminary taxes on rent due, 90% of it in fact.

A few years ago a tenant of ours left on of our properties without notice and left the house in a pretty shabby way.

I did our taxes in November and the house was being repainted repaired etc, that cost was over €6000, and the 3 months from October to December there was no rent from the property.

I submitted the tax return along with the preliminary taxes for the current year and a week later actually 2 days before the DD was due to come out of the bank a note was posted on ROS asking why the preliminary taxes were so low and " not in line previous years " I scanned the repairs quote and the email from the tenant,  and they accepted my explanation.

This might be an isolated situation but it did happen,  that's why I'm surprised people think Revenue don't have an issue or don't look at figures. 

I still believe that selling after the property becomes vacant is more equitable for both tenants and landlords.


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## Sconeandjam (5 Jul 2022)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> That is complete overkill. Just sign the letter yourself, take a scan of the signed copies and addressed envelope, and send it by registered post.
> 
> That will be enough to satisfy anyone that they were sent and delivered.


You need to complete the notice to quit forms stating you are selling and need this witnessed.

You then have to send a copy 30days after the leave date with Notice of termination Return Rtb form (. https://www.rtb.ie/images/uploads/forms/RTB_Notice_of_Termination_Return_Form_(2).pdf) 

I sent it as soon as I sent the notice to leave to the tenant. I registered post so the tenant and RTB could not say they did not get it so making it invalid.

I have just been in the RTB website and the notice to quit firm links are broken and the form is missing as well as other links. Wonder what is going on there?
Took a bit of digging but found the link. The form is missing from where it was a few months ago.



			https://www.rtb.ie/images/uploads/Disputes/Sample_NoT_-_Intention_to_Sell.docx


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## Michelle_B (5 Jul 2022)

JohnJay said:


> You could always have a friendly chat with your tenants and offer them a bonus if they move out early. While its unlikely that they will find somewhere new to live quickly in this current market, you never know unless you ask.
> By the way, if you do pay next years management fee, the new owner will pay you back whatever the % of the year is remaining.


Thanks for this. Didn't realise that I should get a refund of the management fee. Pro rata obviously. good to know.


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## Michelle_B (5 Jul 2022)

Sconeandjam said:


> Make sure you completed the forms that are the Rtb site and get the forms signed infront of solicitor or commissioner of oaths. Make sure you give an extra few days in move out date to allow for delay in postage. You will need to send a copy to Rtb after the move out date. I sent it in error sooner than expected when I issued the tenant notice but they replied that it will not affect the outcome. I paid swift post so I have proof it was delivered. I know you can hand deliver but wanted to have proof that someone else delivered it.
> 
> Why not contact your bank have see what options you gave there? Maybe interest only or mortgage holiday? Then before your tenants move out and apply to pay interest only for say 6 months until the apartment is sold. It will not cost you too much in the scheme of things.


Cheers for this. I had been advised about proof of posting and proof of delivery alright. I won't be hand delivering as I am in Munster and the apartment is in Dublin but the agent i am talking to has mentioned helping with delivery if I decide to go with them.
Good idea to talk to the bank also. I hadn't thought of interest only for a while. That would help cashflow and as you say, not cost too much in the grand scheme


NoRegretsCoyote said:


> That is complete overkill. Just sign the letter yourself, take a scan of the signed copies and addressed envelope, and send it by registered post.
> 
> That will be enough to satisfy anyone that they were sent and delivered.


I heard of a case where the tenant wasn't there to sign for the registered letter and neve picked it up from the post office, so no proof of receipt. !!


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## Michelle_B (5 Jul 2022)

Sconeandjam said:


> You need to complete the notice to quit forms stating you are selling and need this witnessed.
> 
> You then have to send a copy 30days after the leave date with Notice of termination Return Rtb form (. https://www.rtb.ie/images/uploads/forms/RTB_Notice_of_Termination_Return_Form_(2).pdf)
> 
> ...


Thanks for the link. I was having trouble finding it last night and was just about to ask on here


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## JohnJay (5 Jul 2022)

Michelle_B said:


> Thanks for this. Didn't realise that I should get a refund of the management fee. Pro rata obviously. good to know.


its also the same with any property tax. Your solicitor and the buyers solicitor will work out the % of the year that needs to be apportioned to each of you and the new buyer will pay this back to you.


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## Michelle_B (5 Jul 2022)

JohnJay said:


> its also the same with any property tax. Your solicitor and the buyers solicitor will work out the % of the year that needs to be apportioned to each of you and the new buyer will pay this back to you.


Cheers


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## dodo (6 Jul 2022)

Sconeandjam said:


> OP why do you not wait until your tenants have gone? The house will be in order and you will not have to worry about tenants being in the way?


Ideally it would have suited to sell this side of xmas as there is divorce proceedings going on,so house needs to be sold asap, have no choice but to wait until October. So as soon as October is here then house is up for sale. The thread did go off topic with talk about taxes.


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## lff12 (10 Jul 2022)

dodo said:


> Tenants given 4 months notice couple of weeks back and are not happy. So they won't allow estate agent to show viewings of the house so pointless putting it up for sale, as is their right .
> Just wondering anyone had similar situation and can advise if they has to wait the full notice period.
> Also is there anything i need to do in the meantime to avoid any issue on day they due to move out. Eg if they have no place to go etc. I do have  empathy them.


With all due respect, as a buyer there is nothing more depressing than looking at a property the outgoing tenant is still living in.


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## Sconeandjam (27 Jul 2022)

New rules came in from 6th July. 

Copies of notices must be sent to RTB on the same day as the notice given to the tenant otherwise the notice is  invalid.
This applies to all notices from what I see. 






						Notice periods for landlords ending a tenancy | Residential Tenancies Board
					

RTB operates Ireland's National Tenancy Register and resolving disputes between Landlords, tenants and third parties. Governed by residential Tenancies Act 2004. View more information on landlords and tenancies.



					www.rtb.ie
				




If  you sent before the 6th you should be under the previous rules.


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## The Horseman (27 Jul 2022)

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Well we pay preliminary taxes on rent due, 90% of it in fact.
> 
> A few years ago a tenant of ours left on of our properties without notice and left the house in a pretty shabby way.
> 
> ...


Revenue profile returns against expected returns and an exceptions report highlights those were expected returns differ from actuals. 

They will then contact whoever made the preliminary payment to question the difference and decide on its merits. This is how all tax returns/preliminary payments for taxes are monitored. Revenue do not have the resources to monitor every return. Although they do engage in some devious actions when undertaking an inspection of a company's tax returns. 

Any overpayment of tax via the preliminary payment will be refunded when tax returns are filed.


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## T McGibney (27 Jul 2022)

Paul O Mahoney said:


> I submitted the tax return along with the preliminary taxes for the current year and a week later actually 2 days before the DD was due to come out of the bank a note was posted on ROS asking why the preliminary taxes were so low and " not in line previous years " I scanned the repairs quote and the email from the tenant,  and they accepted my explanation.


I'm puzzled how someone in Revenue sought to quiz you on your Preliminary Tax declaration.

Under the self assessment system, it's up to the taxpayer to decide on the appropriate Preliminary Tax payment amount based on their reading of their situation, to specify that sum in their declaration and to make their payment on that basis.

Nobody in Revenue has a right to question you on the logic or methodology underlying the amount you have declared.

Unless it's many years ago, you should consider filing a formal complaint with Revenue.


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