# Enforcement Order - on the dole



## coolatjc

What happens if a credit pushed for an enforcment order on a debt but the debtor has no means to pay their debt?

For example if a person of 20 years of age had the dole income of €100 per week and a debt owed to the creditor for €14,000 but real outgoings of €100 per week, how would a judge act? How could an enforcement order be made?

Also what will a judge allow as a legitimate cost?

For Instance will a judge allow you to deduct Sky, Telephone, Broadband etc or are these seen as luxuries you can do with out?

Does the court grant you a standard of living when considering Enforcement orders?


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## bond-007

Once the judge hears the debtor is on €100 a week dole, he will dismiss the application with liberty to re-enter if the debtors circumstances improve. Most district court judges will not give an order against any person in receipt of social welfare.

Creditors can push all they like but at the end of the day the judge will decide. In general judges do not dissect the ins and outs of a debtors spending.


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## coolatjc

bond-007 said:


> Once the judge hears the debtor is on €100 a week dole, he will dismiss the application with liberty to re-enter if the debtors circumstances improve. Most district court judges will not give an order against any person in receipt of social welfare.
> 
> Creditors can push all they like but at the end of the day the judge will decide. In general judges do not dissect the ins and outs of a debtors spending.


 
Thanks for your reply.

Can I just ask one further thing, If the judge eforces the order or dismiss the application with liberty, will the interest be frozen or held at the date of enforcement? Or does interest continue to increase the size of the debt each year?


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## bond-007

Interest will continue to amount at a rate of 8% per year from the date of the original judgement.


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## coolatjc

bond-007 said:


> Interest will continue to amount at a rate of 8% per year from the date of the original judgement.


 
Once again thankyou for your reply.

Can I just ask about the interest, how can a court seriously expect the debtor to pay interst at 8% per year when they cant even pay the debt?

This ensures the debtor is guarenteed to a lifetime of debt, and within 10 year the debt could have doubled!

I can understand under normal circumstances, but considering todays climate and the governments handiling of the economy, the likelyhood of anyone on welfare finding employment within the next few years being zero.

Is there no way the debtor can make an application to have the interest frozen?

Thanks again for your help.


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## o'grainne

Also, the debt can become statuate barred, 12 years once a court judgement has been obtained.
If no court judgement has happened it would become statute barred after 6 years. 

See; Askaboutmoney.com Court Judgements question. 7/12/2009


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## coolatjc

o'grainne said:


> Also, the debt can become statuate barred, 12 years once a court judgement has been obtained.
> If no court judgement has happened it would become statute barred after 6 years.
> 
> See; Askaboutmoney.com Court Judgements question. 7/12/2009


 
So if someone receives a summons of enforcement but are unable to to pay because no means, does this mean unless their circumstances change after 12 years the creditor can no longer chase for money or seek an application to the court for enforcement?


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## bond-007

They can make an application for enforcement any time during those 12 years. But they only have 12 years from the date of original judgement to chase the money. Once those 12 years are up they are out of luck.

Generally the game plan is to get judgement, slap a judgement mortgage on any property owned and then get an instalment order. If the debtor sells his house during the 12 years they will get their money with interest. Of course if there is no property all they have left is the instalment order. Over the 12 years they make get very little back of the original debt.


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## o'grainne

I am not a solicitor but that is my understanding of statute barred. 
I don't know though if  the other side can re-apply to the court before to time limit is up to update their demand for payment?


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## coolatjc

bond-007 said:


> They can make an application for enforcement any time during those 12 years. But they only have 12 years from the date of original judgement to chase the money. Once those 12 years are up they are out of luck.
> 
> Generally the game plan is to get judgement, slap a judgement mortgage on any property owned and then get an instalment order. If the debtor sells his house during the 12 years they will get their money with interest. Of course if there is no property all they have left is the instalment order. Over the 12 years they make get very little back of the original debt.


 
Can the creditor reapply for a new judgment if the 12 year old judgment is coming near to expiry?

And what would happen if say on year 11 the debtor started to repay the debt, could they refuse to pay any further payments of the debt using the Stat Bared rule?

Thanks again to both of you.


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## bond-007

> Can the creditor reapply for a new judgment if the 12 year old judgment  is coming near to expiry?


No.


> And what would happen if say on year 11 the debtor started to repay the  debt, could they refuse to pay any further payments of the debt using  the Stat Bared rule?


They certainly could. The thing is not many people would be well up on the rules.


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## coolatjc

Thankyou very much for your help!


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## Complainer

coolatjc said:


> For example if a person of 20 years of age had the dole income of €100 per week and a debt owed to the creditor for €14,000 but real outgoings of €100 per week, how would a judge act? How could an enforcement order be made?


DO you mind if I ask how a 20 year old managed to get into €14k of debt?


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## onq

Car loan? Student loans? Gambling debt?

ONQ.


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## coolatjc

Complainer said:


> DO you mind if I ask how a 20 year old managed to get into €14k of debt?


 
They took out a car on Finance. They had a good job that paid over 30K, This was their first ever finance agreement.

Like most people they lost their job, and the Finance company a well known scottish bank wouldnt allow them reduced payments.

They reppossed their car and have come after them for the remainder.

Of course thanks to the lovely government they have had their welfare cut in half, and cant make ends meet. Having this around their neck was dragging them down, and legal aid told them there is a 6 month backlog before they could see them.


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## Complainer

If 14K is the remainder, how much did he borrow?


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## Bronte

coolatjc said:


> They reppossed their car and have come after them for the remainder.
> 
> .


 
Why would they go after someone who has no money and no assets?  Are there assets?  It costs money for the Scottish Bank to go to court so if the person corresponded with them and told them they have nothing they will probably stop pursuing the person.


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## csirl

In this particular case, the problem is that the 20 year old would need to stay on the dole for 12 years to avoid paying the debt. Any 20 year old who does this will become unemployable and spend the rest of their life living in poverty - a much worse position that paying off some or all of the debt. 

The best advice you could give the 20 year old is to keep trying to get a job and pay off the loan - dont throw your life away for the sake of 14k.


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## o'grainne

How about going to the likes of MABS and getting them to negotiate a reduced final payment. The banks write off lots of debt this way with BIG companies and take a fraction of what they are owed. Could try a Credit Union loan to to this as the Credit Unions are easier to deal with. 
Also this outstanding loan could affect your credit rating in the future.


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## coolatjc

Bronte said:


> Why would they go after someone who has no money and no assets? Are there assets? It costs money for the Scottish Bank to go to court so if the person corresponded with them and told them they have nothing they will probably stop pursuing the person.


 
He has tried to negotiate, but they wanted more than he could pay. For some reason they are like a dog with a bone, pushing all the way.



csirl said:


> In this particular case, the problem is that the 20 year old would need to stay on the dole for 12 years to avoid paying the debt. Any 20 year old who does this will become unemployable and spend the rest of their life living in poverty - a much worse position that paying off some or all of the debt.
> 
> Can anyone see Ireland getting out of this mess? He is considering walking away from his debt and leaving the country looking to start a new life elsewhere.
> 
> The best advice you could give the 20 year old is to keep trying to get a job and pay off the loan - dont throw your life away for the sake of 14k.


 
If he could get a job he would, simply put he would. 



o'grainne said:


> How about going to the likes of MABS and getting them to negotiate a reduced final payment. The banks write off lots of debt this way with BIG companies and take a fraction of what they are owed. Could try a Credit Union loan to to this as the Credit Unions are easier to deal with.
> Also this outstanding loan could affect your credit rating in the future.


 
He couldnt even pay them a €1,000.

The debt was 21k or there about, car was valued at €18,000 and interest around €3,000. He took the loan out when he was 19.

They took the car back and sold it for €4,000, disgustingly well below the actual retail price. Despite him pleading with them to let him sell it.  He had a family friend who owned  a garage offering €8,000.

I believe he had around €17,000 left on the finance, so with the sale of the car it was reduced to €13,000 however because of this 8% interest rule the amount has now increased to €14,000 again.

Now I may have a few figures slightly out, by this is the main summing up of his plight.  I suggested to him to get out of Ireland as there is nothing here for the young anymore, but he wants to remain closer to his family, however the bank is doing there very best to push him out of Ireland.


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## coolatjc

o'grainne said:


> How about going to the likes of MABS and getting them to negotiate a reduced final payment. The banks write off lots of debt this way with BIG companies and take a fraction of what they are owed. Could try a Credit Union loan to to this as the Credit Unions are easier to deal with.
> Also this outstanding loan could affect your credit rating in the future.


 

Will the credit union give someone on the dole a loan?

And even if they do will they give a loan to someone with an income of just €100 per week?


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## AlbacoreA

As far as I know you have to have a history of saving first.

Perhaps if he started saving even a little in 6 months or a year, in the credit union, the credit union might consider it then. Someone young should take the long term view. They will get a job eventually, its just going to take them a few years to clear that debt.


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## bond-007

Bronte said:


> Why would they go after someone who has no money and no assets?  Are there assets?  It costs money for the Scottish Bank to go to court so if the person corresponded with them and told them they have nothing they will probably stop pursuing the person.


The banks always take people to court. They waste thousands every year getting judgements and instalment orders against debtors who can't pay. If a debtor tells a bank it can't pay they will ignore that fact and carry on regardless. You only have to go to a sitting of your local District Court and you will be amazed by the cases the banks take against asset less debtors.


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## Bronte

coolatjc said:


> Now I may have a few figures slightly out, by this is the main summing up of his plight. I suggested to him to get out of Ireland as there is nothing here for the young anymore, but he wants to remain closer to his family, however the bank is doing there very best to push him out of Ireland.


 
If he can't pay then the bank can do nothing to him really.  Let it go to court and a judge will decide on what is to be done, in the case you've outlined it is highly unlikely a court order for payment will be made or it could be set at the level of 5 Euro a week.  

The bank obviously thinks there is money there somewhere (parents perhaps?) otherwise I don't believe they would be so aggressive as it's pointless.  Can you please name the bank, you haven't mentioned anything illegal about them so if you name them others with the same problem with that bank will be able to give you better advice.

Please also get him to make an appointment with MABS and see what they say and to help in reassuring him.


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## Papercut

Even if a judge gives an instalment order it would be for a very small amount.

  If he has to emigrate it’s not because of the debt or the bank – it would be to get a job if he cannot get one here. If he did so he would be able to repay the debt from abroad.

  You seem to be talking in terms of him being unemployed for the rest of his life. You should encourage him not to be thinking this way. This is not healthy for a 20 year old.

  He was always going to have to repay the debt. He has no car to show for it, & that is unfortunate & extremely disheartening, but should make him more determined to succeed. Even if he is still unemployed in 5 years his unemployment payment rate would increase.

  By that stage he surely would have either enrolled in some sort of further training/education or looked further afield for employment. His financial circumstances are bound to improve at some stage in the future, so you should encourage him to concentrate on that rather than this temporary misfortune.

  If his family aren’t in a position to help him out financially with a view to offering a lesser settlement amount, he has little or no chance of borrowing €14k elsewhere, so he really has no other option than to wait & see what action is taken.


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## bond-007

coolatjc said:


> They took the car back and sold it for €4,000, disgustingly well below  the actual retail price. Despite him pleading with them to let him sell  it.  He had a family friend who owned  a garage offering €8,000.


That is crazy. It might be worth a complaint to the FSO. There is nothing to loose in doing so.


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## bond-007

Bronte said:


> The bank obviously thinks there is money there somewhere (parents perhaps?) otherwise I don't believe they would be so aggressive as it's pointless.


The bank can't make the parents pay. Even if they had millions they are under no moral or legal obligation to pay their child's debts. 

See my post earlier about aggressive banks abusing the legal system.


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## Complainer

coolatjc said:


> He has tried to negotiate, but they wanted more than he could pay. For some reason they are like a dog with a bone, pushing all the way.
> 
> If he could get a job he would, simply put he would. He couldnt even pay them a €1,000.
> 
> The debt was 21k or there about, car was valued at €18,000 and interest around €3,000. He took the loan out when he was 19.


Pity there wasn't some wise family/friends around to tell him that borrowing €20k for a car when you are earning €30k is crazy.


bond-007 said:


> That is crazy. It might be worth a complaint to the FSO. There is nothing to loose in doing so.


Absolutely.


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## coolatjc

I just have another few questions if I may!

In regards to the case, a defence was taken out against the civil bill from the bank. However nothing was ever heard back untill the other day when the enforcement order came through.

He had hoped the whole case may have been dropped by the bank and thought no more of it, but to his horror the bank had been and gone to court behind his back. His defence was registered at the registras office and copies sent to the banks solicitors by himself. 


Can he mention this at the enforcement hearing to the judge?, or has it gone too far now?

His defence was based on a few little things he felt were wrong with the banks dealings etc, nothing too major more hopeful than anything else but he thought it may be worth a try.

Should he just except his fate or are their options open to him?

Thanks again!


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## Bronte

coolatjc said:


> I just have another few questions if I may!
> 
> 
> He had hoped the whole case may have been dropped by the bank and thought no more of it, but to his horror the bank had been and gone to court behind his back. His defence was registered at the registras office and copies sent to the banks solicitors by himself.
> 
> !


 
You should ask as many questions as you need to to find out the solutions to the predicament. That is what AAM is for. 

Anyone on 100Euro a week being chased by a financial institution is just plain ridiculous and soul destroying.  

What do you mean by dropping off a defence? Did the debtor show up at the court case, did they know there was a court case?


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## Bronte

bond-007 said:


> The banks always take people to court. They waste thousands every year getting judgements and instalment orders against debtors who can't pay. If a debtor tells a bank it can't pay they will ignore that fact and carry on regardless. You only have to go to a sitting of your local District Court and you will be amazed by the cases the banks take against asset less debtors.


 
James, I missed this.  Nothing surprises me about banks.  

What is their end game objective in this?  Are they going to wait until people are back in employment in say 3 years time or buy an asset in the future, like the UK banks did after the last handing back the keys scenario?  Do they want half the country to have doomed credit ratings?  Surely if everybody ends up have a black mark on the IIB (can't remember the name of it) report and lending gets going again no one will be able to borrow which is precisely what the banks don't need.  They will need borrowers in the future to make profits?

You always give excellent advice on the way the debt collection process works, have you done a key post or could you direct me somewhere I could read up on this so as to be able to give people correct advice.


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## coolatjc

Bronte said:


> You should ask as many questions as you need to to find out the solutions to the predicament. That is what AAM is for.
> 
> Anyone on 100Euro a week being chased by a financial institution is just plain ridiculous and soul destroying.
> 
> What do you mean by dropping off a defence? Did the debtor show up at the court case, did they know there was a court case?


 
He put in a defence against the origional civil case, however after doing this he heard nothing untill the enforcement order arrived.

It appears that in his absent a judgment was given in favour to the finance company, there was no mention of his defence.

He had put in a defence whilst awaiting free legal aid, when he did have a meeting with the legal aid team they simply told him he had to return the vehicle (as upto that point no effort was made by the finance company to retrieve the vehicle).  On their instructions he contacted the finance company and aranged a pick up date.

He then heard nothing about the case or the defence he had placed until the enforcement order arrived.  He contacted legal aid to ask what had happened to his defence but they responded by saying thr solicitor that he had spoken to had since left and there was nobody else available to talk about the case.

He thinks, and I agree that the creditors solicitors and courts most likely contacted his legal aid solicitor who didnt inform him of the court case. Bit of course that is personal opinion and we have no way of knowing.


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## bond-007

I have a feeling that no defence was lodged with the court and/or the banks solicitors. That is why they got a judgement in default. If a defence was lodged, the bank would have to at the very least give you notice of seeking a motion for judgement. The case would then be set down for trial in front of a judge.

You can check with the circuit court office and they will tell you if a defence was ever lodged or was there a motion hearing that you missed.


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## Bronte

coolatjc said:


> He then heard nothing about the case or the defence he had placed until the enforcement order arrived. He contacted legal aid to ask what had happened to his defence but they responded by saying thr solicitor that he had spoken to had since left and there was nobody else available to talk about the case.
> 
> He thinks, and I agree that the creditors solicitors and courts most likely contacted his legal aid solicitor who didnt inform him of the court case.


 
Well this is a right mess, he has to go back to legal aid and ask them how they are going to sort it out.  That's a dreadful response from legal aid saying they have no one else to deal with it.  If they took on the case then they are obliged surely to deal with the case, they can't just leave it in the air and leave him without a defense.  Surely that's negligence by the legal aid board.  Do they not have rules and regulations and law society standards to keep?


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## Papercut

The OP does not actually state that free legal aid were representing the debtor, just that they had given him advice. I'm not sure that they would actually represent anyone where a debt has been acknowledged


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## bond-007

You won't get free legal aid for this sort of case. They cannot represent anyone for debt cases. They may well have offered general advice but the OP is on his own after that.

You can only get free legal aid where you are facing a committal for non compliance with an instalment order.


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## Bronte

Well if that's the case then, the debtor would have had to have been served notice of the court date and the judge would have asked if the debtor had been served notice?


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## bond-007

Not exactly.

For a circuit court case, the debtor would be served with a civil bill. This gives them 10 days to enter an appearance and a further 14 days to enter a defence. There is no court date on the civil bill. If an appearance and defence is entered, the creditors solicitors would then have to file motions of which notice of same would be served on the debtor. 

If the debtor does nothing, a default judgement will be entered without a hearing.


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## Bronte

And is it clear to the debtor in the civil bill that they have to do something (a - appearance and b - defence) and would they know how to do it (procedures) from the civil bill?


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## bond-007

It does explain what must be done within the time-scale allowed.

It however does not explain how to do it. But that information is available online.


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