# To have a baby or not to have a baby ?



## ZEGAR (31 Jul 2006)

Just wondering what people base the decision to have children on.
   Do people just have them because they want to or do they weigh up the finances before going ahead,do they check of if child minding facilities are available or do  they just jump right in a hope for the best. ?


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## foxylady (31 Jul 2006)

ZEGAR said:
			
		

> Just wondering what people base the decision to have children on.
> Do people just have them because they want to or do they weigh up the finances before going ahead,do they check of if child minding facilities are available or do they just jump right in a hope for the best. ?


 
While the costs associated with having children are expensive. I dont think its a decision that should be based on a monetary level, as its bringing a new person into the world not buying a car or other such object. The onkly things to weigh up is how much you want one the other things are usually worked out after the event.


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## ZEGAR (31 Jul 2006)

That is how feel about it..If you want one have one..I was just wondering do people actually sit down and work out the finances and then decide to have one soon or later....I presume they do in this day and age.


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## Flexible (31 Jul 2006)

ZEGAR said:
			
		

> If you want one have one...




If only it was as easy as that


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## Lorz (31 Jul 2006)

TBH I don't think it's as simple as deciding to have one.  The first factor should be whether you want to have one, next are you secure in your relationship to have one and finally can you afford one?  I do think it's irresponsible to have a child without considering the finances and what arrangements will be made for childcare after the childs birth - ie stay at home, creche, au pair, grandparents, etc.  A child isn't going to make a bad relationship work in fact it can make a good relationship bad so it's essential you both sit down and discuss all the factors first.


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## ZEGAR (31 Jul 2006)

Of course you are right ,it is not that easy.
    I have gone through life thinking about it having children and just presuming it will happen and never really considering that maybe it will take a long time or sadly may never happen.


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## MissRibena (31 Jul 2006)

I'm the only person I know who feels like this:

I'm in a stable relationship, I'm a fairly stable person (!) as is my partner and we could "afford it" (if that's a legitimate criterion).  

But ... I just can't come up with a rational reason to start a family.  I like kids and can understand the warmth/love of being part of my own family as much as any childless person can so it's not like I'm non-maternal.  I don't believe in starting a family because it's the "next step" or because it's some life experience on the list to do before I die (like Australia or whatever).    

If I got pregnant tomorrow, it would be an "accident" but I would definitely want to keep the baby and I think I'd be happy to be a mum (and probably a little relieved that the "decision" had been taken out of my hands).  I just can't ever see me coming to a point where I decide "right, now's the time, let's get to it".  I have thought that it is probably not a rational decision and that at some stage, broodiness, hormones or instinct would kick in and make me want a baby but as time goes on (I'll be 29 next month), the less I feel sure that that is going to happen.

The closest I get to someone feeling the same are the couples who "like their life now" but that's not really where I'm coming from. 

Rebecca


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## ZEGAR (31 Jul 2006)

Miss Ribena..
 I understand what you are saying 100%..I would rather the decision was made for me rather than having to actually sit down and work out the pros and cons and finally deciding..The factor that is urging me on to make a decision is age..I will shortly be 30 and am a little scared .I feel about 16 but I need to take a reality check every now and again and remind myself I am nearly 30 years old.
    I think the only reason I could see for not having a baby is that the whole concept scares me and It would mean loss of free time !!!!


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## ney001 (31 Jul 2006)

I like kids but to be perfectly honest I think I'll have them initially anyway for two main reasons (1) other half wants them badly (2) I don't like the prospect of it being just the two of us for ever - I think couples need something to focus on together otherwise it could be pretty boring.  I can't put it off much longer - I've done the 'we need to have fun' bit, I've done the 'we need to be settled' bit, I've done the 'we need to be married' bit and I've done the 'we need to buy a house' bit - running out of excuses not to have them now!.  Other than 'we need to enjoy our new house'  - sounds a bit weak even to me!! Whatever happens I'm not going to plan for it too much - sometimes you can over think things - my best friend can't conceive and when I see what she's gone through I think how lucky I am to have the choice!


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## Lorz (31 Jul 2006)

Age is just a number!  IMO, you shouldn't make a decision that you wouldn't otherwise make simply because you were born in 19XX.  

MissRibena - there are plenty of women who feel the same as you but fear voicing their feelings because of the reaction they would get - but you are not alone!  

I do often have to stop myself from making assumptions.  We take precautions for so many years trying not to get pregnant and assume when the time is right our bodies will oblige!  Not always so - especially with the extra stress we are all under and the fact that most people are starting their family later in life - early 30s.


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## Betsy Og (31 Jul 2006)

Theres a saying that "People have children for selfish reasons." Now that is probably true but I dont like the negativity attached to it. Thought provoking though.

I think having children should be a responsible decision in terms of timing it but then you just have to give it go - I dont think you can run through the spreadsheet of costs and see if theres a green light down the bottom because once the genie is out the bottle, so to speak, it aint going back. I think that once you are satisfied you can give the child a good start in life (factors like finances do play a role but more important is the family circumstance & the logistics of life after a baby) then go for it.

As a new dad I think its brilliant - sure it changes your life to some degree but definitely for the better. What you miss you more than get back, maybe it was easier for me as the auld hectic social life was a few years back. Ignore superficial stuff like feeding and nappychanging - its not really a factor - it has to be done but it aint rocket science and it wont ruin your life. (I was going to put pregnancy/labour on that list but I'd get cyberlynched  , however, it the context of your and your childs hopefully long & happy life it shouldnt be sufficient deterrant). 

If you're stuck for reasons then bear in mind that  :
1) If everyone decided not to have them the human race would die out (probably a bad thing)
2) You've been order to go forth and multiply, so what you waiting for.

Seriously though, you cant force yourself to be maternal/paternal but at some stage, if all the factors seem to be right, you might just have to take the plunge.


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## ney001 (31 Jul 2006)

One thing that's very important to me is that I never ever become one of those people who goes on and on and on about their kids, especially when you can't stand their kids - I have a male friend who has two children and I can honestly say that I really don't like his kids, they're rude and obnoxious and have permanently runny noses and cheese stuff on their clothes - he thinks they're feckin hilarious!.  I'm not maternal at the moment, can't do the baby talk stuff and can't relate to any kids between 2 years and 12 years - but I'm told that your maternal feelings kick in and you grow into it -I'm going to trust in that - I know some feckin horrible women who are really good mothers!


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## fobs (31 Jul 2006)

I didn't have my first child until I was 30 and my second at 33 but it wasn't until this age that I could even bring myself to contemplate having kids. We didn't sit down and plan having them but adopted a "see if it happens" approach once I hit 29 and it seemd to work out. i didn't feel maternal until well after my first child was born and in the first few weeks sometimes felt I could have handed the baby back but now can't imagine life without them.
I have sometimes wondered about having number 3 but have no urge for a third like I did for a second child. I feel if I had waited to feel my biological clock ticking or other such cliches I would never have had my first child.


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## car (31 Jul 2006)

1. Women: to prepare for maternity, put on a dressing gown and stick a beanbag down the front. Leave it there for 9 months.
After 9 months, take  out 10% of the beans. Men: to prepare for paternity, go to the local drugstore, tip the contents of your wallet on the counter, and tell the pharmacist to help himself.
Then go to the supermarket. Arrange to have your salary paid directly to their head office. Go home. Pick up the paper. Read it for the last time.


2. Before you finally go ahead and have children, find a couple who are already parents and berate them about their methods of discipline, lack of patience, appallingly low tolerance levels, and how they have allowed their children to run riot. Suggest ways in which they might improve their child's sleeping habits, toilet training, table manners and overall behavior. Enjoy it
-- it'll be the last time in your life that you will have all the answers.


3. To discover how the nights will feel, walk around the living room from 5pm to 10pm carrying a wet bag weighing approximately
8-12 lbs. At 10pm put the bag down, set the alarm for midnight, and go to sleep. Get up at 12 and walk around the living room again, with the bag, till 1am. Put the alarm on for 3am. As you can't get back to sleep get up at 2am and make a drink. Go to bed at 2:45am. Get up again at 3am when the alarm goes off.
Sing songs in the dark until 4am. Put the alarm on for 5am. Get up. Make breakfast. Keep this up for 5 years. Look cheerful.


4. Can you stand the mess children make? To find out, smear peanut butter onto the sofa and jam onto the curtains. Hide a fish finger behind the stereo and leave it there all summer.
Stick your fingers in the flower beds then rub them on the clean walls. Cover the stains with crayons. How does that look?


5. Dressing small children is not as easy as it seems: first buy an octopus and a string bag. Attempt to put the octopus into the string bag so that none of the arms hang out. Time allowed for this: all morning.


6. Take an egg carton. Using a pair of scissors and a pot of paint turn it into an alligator. Now take a toilet tube. Using only scotch tape and a piece of foil, turn it into a Christmas cracker. Last, take a milk container, a ping pong ball, and an empty packet of Coco Pops and make an exact replica of the Eiffel Tower. Congratulations. You have just qualified for a place on the play group committee.


7. Forget the Miata and buy a Taurus. And don't think you can leave it out in the driveway spotless and shining. Family cars don't look like that. Buy a chocolate ice cream bar and put it in the glove compartment. Leave it there. Get a quarter. Stick it in the cassette player. Take a family-size packet of chocolate cookies. Mash them down the back seats. Run a garden rake along both sides of the car. There. Perfect.


8. Get ready to go out. Wait outside the toilet for half an hour. Go out the front door. Come in again. Go out. Come back in. Go out again. Walk down the front path. Walk back up it.
Walk down it again. Walk very slowly down the road for 5 minutes. Stop to inspect minutely every cigarette end, piece of used chewing gum, dirty tissue and dead insect along the way.
Retrace your steps. Scream that you've had as much as you can stand, until the neighbors come out and stare at you. Give up and go back into the house. You are now just about ready to try taking a small child for a walk.


9. Always repeat everything you say at least five times.


10. Go to your local supermarket. Take with you the nearest thing you can find to a pre-school child -- a fully grown goat is excellent. If you intend to have more than one child, take more than one goat. Buy your week's groceries without letting the goats out of your sight. Pay for everything the goats eat or destroy. Until you can easily accomplish this do not even contemplate having children.


11. Hollow out a melon. Make a small hole in the side. Suspend it from the ceiling and swing it from side to side. Now get a bowl of soggy Weetabix and attempt to spoon it into the swaying melon by pretending to be an airplane. Continue until half the Weetabix is gone. Tip the rest into your lap, making sure that a lot of it falls on the floor. You are now ready to feed a 12-month-old baby.


12. Learn the names of every character from Postman Pat, Fireman Sam and Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. When you find yourself singing "Postman Pat" at work, you finally qualify as a parent.


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## Marie M (31 Jul 2006)

I love that list, its all true.  Seriously I wouldn't say there is a right or wrong time, although there is obvious things like having a job and somewhere to live, but once the deal is done, you will never look back, just don't get too stressed about it -  its natures way of making sure the time is right, but it shouldn't get you down.


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## Betsy Og (31 Jul 2006)

But Car - its well know that a chemical reaction occurs in the brain of those of childbearing age that makes you forget you've ever seen or are aware of all of the above . Other great contraceptives are the Nanny 911 types programmes.

Maybe all the above help us to become more patient and less precious about cars and houses, which in Ireland of today cant be a bad thing.


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## car (31 Jul 2006)

Ive a 1 and 2 year old in the house.    Looking back on it, life was so easy when we didnt have kids. and then life was even a lot easier with 1 then 2 even more so then before we had 1, it aint easy. Get the all the responsable parenting stuff out of the way tho and theyre brilliant fun...

I was reading something in the guardian today about how scientists have proved having kids doesnt increase your happyness, it just changes your goals and life fulfilment needs.   Must try and find the link..


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## purplealien (31 Jul 2006)

car - that list is hilarious but so so true! It's all worth it though.
*"The first half of our life is ruined by our parents and the second half by our children."  Clarence Darrow *


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## Snork Maiden (31 Jul 2006)

Dont bother having your own kids, nephews and nieces are the best! 

They love you unconditionally
they love when you visit (a change from Mom & Dad)
You get to spoil them 
You can be the 'Kool Auntie/Uncle'
You can 'borrow' them as an excuse to see the latest spiderman movie
you get to hand them BACK!!!!

Bless their cotton socks!


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## lz1 (31 Jul 2006)

Excellent Car, so true!!

Have two with third on the way, the best decision ever.

remember boys wreck the house, girls wreck the head.


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## Crea (31 Jul 2006)

There is a saying "Children are like f*rts, you can barely tolerate your own" 
I have to say I hate baby bores. I have 2 of my own and it even bores me when my mother gushes about them. "Look they're smiling" - God!
To answer the OP's question : be in a stable, happy relationship, live in suitable accomodation, be able to afford it and know that you want children. I knew from my late teens that I wanted kids but it took me until I was 32 before the other factors were in place.
About children not increasing your happiness I wonder about that. I laugh alot every single day.


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## RainyDay (31 Jul 2006)

Age is indeed an issue. As a result of fertility issues with both partners, I'm 5 years older as a parent than I had planned. It's a bit of a bummer knowing that I'll be over 60 at my daughter's 21st birthday party. 

So don't assume that when you finally stop all those frantic steps to avoid conception that the little one will arrive to your schedule.


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## MissRibena (31 Jul 2006)

I realise that my attitude/reaction can seem very ungrateful/presumptuous to people who dearly want to have children and have difficulty in conceiving. I know that this might all be ahead of me too. And I'm fairly sure that if I discovered somehow that I would have trouble, then I'd probably be hell-bent on having a baby.

But all that aside; I think of the reasons for having children; that I would be able to give a child a good home, be a loving and caring parent and even if I couldn't afford an expensive education, the child would be surrounded by open minds and books and every opportunity to learn. So why have my _own_ kids then? Why not try and help foster kids (I know this is not simply a matter of clicking my fingers and ordering a foster child btw)? My partner is from a country with lots of "abandoned" children - would it not be much better to adopt one or foster them? We could keep them in touch with their own culture and give them a good start.

It's as hard for me to make a decision about all those options as it is to decide I want a child of my own. If my partner was desperate for children it might make a big difference, because I could probably be persuaded but we both agree in our confusion. 

And I have to be honest on a more minor but probably more concrete issue. I don't want to start a riot and I am not trying to speak for every couple in the world. However, in the majority (and I don't use that lightly) of couples of I know of all kinds of ages and with all kinds of backgrounds, the woman ends up with the lion's share of the work and worry that comes with children. And I just don't think it's fair and it's not what I want for me. It was not what any of these women wanted either and they didn't find out until after they had their children and I would love to think that we are different (he certainly gives no signs of not pulling his weight now) but I have no way to know for sure. The joy/pride/wonder of having the children seems to have eradicated some (but not all) of the sense of injustice my female friends and acquaintances have though.

Rebecca


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## ClubMan (31 Jul 2006)

Betsy Og said:
			
		

> Theres a saying that "People have children for selfish reasons." Now that is probably true but I dont like the negativity attached to it.


 Of course it's true and it's perfectly natural. Most fundamentally, when all the social and other conventions surrounding it are stripped away, we do it to make sure that our genes survive.


			
				RainyDay said:
			
		

> It's a bit of a bummer knowing that I'll be over 60 at my daughter's 21st birthday party.


 Why is that a bummer?


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## Swallows (31 Jul 2006)

To the women on this website, only have children if you are prepared to look after them yourself. I dont say this to be mean to men, but they will be out at *work* while you will be at *home* looking after the little angels.You will have most of the responsibility and day to day care for years to come. Nowadays women have choices. It is harder now for women to decide whether or not to have children because many are in good jobs and will lose this independence.But you can't have it every way.


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## ClubMan (31 Jul 2006)

Swallows said:
			
		

> To the women on this website, only have children if you are prepared to look after them yourself. I dont say this to be mean to men, but they will be out at *work* while you will be at *home* looking after the little angels.


Not necessarily. It may still be the norm but there are exceptions to this rule such as stay at home fathers and both parents working full or overlapping part time.


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## liteweight (31 Jul 2006)

Have you discussed the fact that you're worried about being left with the lionshare of the work/worry etc. with your partner? Maybe he can set your mind at rest. I've met women like those discussed above but it was never like that in my case. Whether I was in employment or staying at home, my husband always did his share with our 2 daughters. He wanted to develop a close relationship with his children; didn't see the point in having them otherwise. Granted, he has always said that I did the lionshare when it came to emotional welfare as he found himself 'all at sea' with some of the problems experienced by young girls. The result is that at 24 and 21 our girls can talk and have a laugh with either of us. They're not embarassed to discuss anything in front of their Dad although sometimes he wishes they wouldn't!! It really depends on your relationship whether you end up being like a single mum. If you trust your partner not to let that happen then you'll be ok.

I think you're in a good position when it comes to making your decision. At least you're giving it thought which can't be a bad thing.


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## Swallows (31 Jul 2006)

Well then this is the ideal arrangement, but I must say I have been around for a long time and it usually works the other way. People will do anything to opt out of the responsibility ( men and women ) once the going gets tough, which it usually does.The children get caught in the middle and that's when the trouble starts. I know of a couple who were together for fifteen years, as soon as the children came along trouble started because one accused the other of not pulling their weight as they promised. They are now separated with the children moving between houses.Some people want to carry on their lifestyle that they had before the children came along and are not prepared to make changes.


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## Guest127 (31 Jul 2006)

a lot of us have been where MissRibena is. my terrible two, both 'half-planned' arrived when we were sort of settled into married life. sometimes you muddle through, sometimes you can do the steering, it just sort of comes as you go along. now that they are both young adults, you start putting a 'different' life together again, in simple things, like booking meals for two again, booking hotel rooms that suit you, and not having to go on package holidays in peak season. minor in the great scheme of things I appreciate, but I cant say for definite how we would have worked out over the years without those two kids. Really cant say. would we still be together? would other problems have come between us? would things that dont actually count in the longer term have taken on too much importance? who knows. would we swop? No. (even if we plan to spend the kids inheritance without them finding out) CAR: brilliant!


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## liteweight (31 Jul 2006)

Hi Swallow,

Those people shouldn't have children and perhaps if they'd put as much thought into it as the OP they wouldn't have. Of course everyone has days when they want to opt out. If you're fortunate enough to have a relationship where you can voice this, then its ok, the other person just takes over for a while. Personally, I used to get to the stage where I was in danger of cutting up your meat for you at dinner. When I felt like that, I used to go out and take temp work for a couple of months. It kept the grey cells active and allowed me to socialise outside of the home or with other mothers. I was never the type who liked to talk babies. I figured if I was out for the night, then I was out with adults for adult conversation and a break.


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## Berlin (1 Aug 2006)

This is not a perfect world and there are no guarantees. Not all men are chauvinist monsters. Some love their children very much and are excellent daddies. Some mothers are horrible. Some marriages break up and some don't. Some children are more troublesome than others. C'est la vie. You have to roll with the punches in this life, whether you have childen or not. Personally I'm glad I did. I could tell you its wonderfully life-enhancing or I could tell you its very hard work. Both are true. You choose.


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## Sue Ellen (1 Aug 2006)

car said:
			
		

> it just changes your goals and life fulfilment needs.


 
In other words makes you put things in their proper perspective and not putting yourself first, which in itself is not a bad thing.

Come the teenage years can't live with them but can't live without them  

IMHO they're a 24 hour, 365 day job but worth every minute of it (but don't tell my two I said that  ).


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## jdwex (1 Aug 2006)

To be honest, it can get a bit annoying (say in work) when people come out with stuff like "you two have been going out for x years, why don't ye get married and have kids". I wonder are they looking for some type of vallidation for their own lifestyle choices. Some day I'm going to lose it with someone...


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## ney001 (1 Aug 2006)

I guess a big concern for me is my job, I'm the manager in a small company which has only one other woman working - I guess I'd feel like I was letting the side down - and even when you do come back I don't think you are treated in the same way.   Anway, I always said that I wouldn't have kids for my 30th Birthday and I intend to stick to this come hell or high water - I brought the OH away on the holiday of a lifetime for his 30th so I want to do the same! After that I'll be prepared to settle for package holidays with the kids or even worse camping!


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## RainyDay (1 Aug 2006)

ClubMan said:
			
		

> Why is that a bummer?


The 21st issue was symbolic of the broader issues that arise with older parents. First of all, our age, fertility issues and the risks associated with pregnancy in older mums make it less likely that we will have another child, which is not the ideal situation imho. I also believe that the age gap is significant in terms of the relationship you will have with your children. I will be less physically able to cope with the bending, the lifting, the rolling round on grass etc than I was 5 years ago. My chances of attending my daughter's wedding aren't great, and my chances of seeing grandchildren old enough that they will actually remember me are pretty poor. 

There are advantages to being an older parent. We've got the financial squeezes of house/wedding well out of the way. I don't feel the need to 'prove' myself in work by being present for 12 hour days on a regular basis. 

But all in all, with the benefit of hindsight, I'd do things differently if I had another chance.


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## ney001 (1 Aug 2006)

My parents had a child later in life - there was a 16 year gap between me and the youngest and although I believe my sister has kept them 'young' - they definitely don't have the energy they had when we were kids.  When my sister is 21 dad will be about 62.  The problem is that my sister hasn't had the same experiences of dad as we did.  He used to bring us off camping all the time etc (probably because we didn't have money do go on fancy holidays) and biking and lots of active things.  Nowadays he wouldn't be able for camping with my sister.  On the plus side I know that they make much better parents then some of the the younger parents I see at my sister's school, many of these had kids when they were kids themselves and from the way they speak to their children they seem to resent them - they have no patience and just shout at the kids all the time.


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## ZEGAR (1 Aug 2006)

hhhmmmm I am still none the wiser !!!!
  I am is what I consider a stable relationship.

I own my house mortgage free .The only factor making me really consider this is my job..I am  not ambitious but feel I should retain my job as it is a good job with decent pay..The only problem Is I travel a long distance to work and have an early start..
    Should I base my decision on child care.. ???  If there was a child minder available now there is no guarantee they would be available next year....
        This would be so much easier if I just found out I was pregnant and not have to plan it !!! Ironic really when you think of all the years I spend praying I would not get pregnant..Such is life.


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## ney001 (1 Aug 2006)

I don't think that there are many people out there who regret ever having had children, I do think that there are people out there who regret the fact that they didn't have children.  Don't worry about this too much, things have a way of sorting themselves out - you will have nine months to sort out child care and get things straight in your head.  Rome wasn't built in a day so go easy on yourself!


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## ZEGAR (1 Aug 2006)

I think your rihgt ney001..I am just going to go with the flow and see what happens..That has worked for me so far....


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## fobs (1 Aug 2006)

Just to prove Rainyday that 60 isn't old ....my father is fitter now at almost 62 than he was at 52! He walked his first marathon in his late fifties and ran his first marathon at almost 60 and has run in Dublin,New york,boston to name a few. There is hope!


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## ney001 (1 Aug 2006)

Exactly Zegar - life is too short to worry, anyway you sound like you'd be a great parent if you're putting so much thought into it already - if all else fails just get drunk  - thousands of women had the decision made for them this way!


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## nelly (1 Aug 2006)

Zeger - Same boat and the only advice i heard was from my sister who was totally career oriented before her little darling arrived, after putting children off till she was 39 my sister now reckons your priorities change, in her opinion you take stock of your life and work in a different way and although she still works she reckons she works "smarter". I am putting it off till i am a bit more financially secure, but i never will be to the level i want - mortgage free and loads in the bank with a better job so i just go with the flow if it happens we have 9 months to deal with it. 
I don't want to leave it till after, say 35/6 ,as i know IVF is the most difficult (not to mention unromantic) method of concieving and not guaranteed.


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## ZEGAR (1 Aug 2006)

One factor that is strongly motivating me is my own parents.
  They are approaching their 60's and I know they would love granchildren and I think it is important that they are capable of enjoying them.

Now I would not have kids just for my parents but if I had decided to have them anyway my parents would be a big factor in the timing of it.

   Should I even be considering them or am I mad ?

As you can see there are around a million and 1 things flying around in my head..But its good to get different views on all these things.


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## nelly (1 Aug 2006)

yes - i agree also that the grandparents is a factor (only a small one). It's nice for your children to know your parents and i know my parents dote on my nieces and nephews. Not everyone would agree that it should factor into your "big decision", 
Friends i work with reckon  i should have them ASAP as i am 28 -  as they think can get your life back when you are 50ish (assuming de kids have shuffled on at 20!).


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## ellamac (1 Aug 2006)

I have to say - this has been an amusing thread, as it's normally a subject that is frowned upon and mainly by women in my experience.  

I was part of the 3 amigos - best of friends all our lives.  One of us wanted children, the other and myself did not. Now we're talking from 10 years of age! But we retained this train of thought all through of life experiences.  Then we all got married.  Two now have children but I don't and really don't feel the need to.  

My friend who always wanted children got her wish, got married, beautiful house, part-time job and beautiful baby - except she might as well be a single mother.  The 'perfect' husband she thought she had, disappeared. It breaks my heart to see her trying to put on a brave face and gush at how wonderful and supportive he is, when after a few drinks the truth comes out and although she has a beautiful child - she feels her marraige has suffered and she looks at her husband in a completely different light now.

My other friend, never wanted children but then got married.  As lives reach another unexpected level.... she had an 'accident'.  It turned out to be the best accident that ever happened to her, as she grew as a person and her whole life had purpose - apart from her husband.  I won't even go into this again!! Anyhow, she decided to have number two as number one was such a success and she was promised that things would be different and that they would be partners in every way, ya de ya de ya - so number two came along recently and life became hell! The number one child who is my godchild and who I adored, has now become a spoilt brat - sorry but there really is no easy way to say it, completely 100% spoilt.  New baby never sleeps and never stops crying and my friend did not bond with this baby.  Plus husband still has his life uninterupted! Manages to go out every Fri, Sat & Sunday! The new baby is now 3 months old and my friend honestly said that if she could turn back the clock she would - this is not what she wanted from life and wishes she never had second baby.  

So here I am, I'm 34 years old, I'm married two years and having a ball.  I have two godchildren - one with my friend and one with my sister (my sister even said never again!) and I can honestly say - I will NEVER have children after experiencing what they & others have gone through. Why would I when I have the best of both worlds, I have all the good bits and the parents have all the really awful bits! The rose-tinted glasses smashed to the floor and I would have to say that all their relationships have suffered enormously.  It's very frustrating, that because you're married, at a certain age etc, that automatically people ask you a very personal question - when will we hear the pitter patter mularkey.  I love seeing their reactions (mainly women) when I say never in a million years thank you very much.  Thank you Zegar and Ms. Ribena for raising this issue - it's nice to hear honesty on this subject from time to time!


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## ClubMan (1 Aug 2006)

RainyDay said:
			
		

> First of all, our age, fertility issues and the risks associated with pregnancy in older mums make it less likely that we will have another child


 At least there are more options for the detection and management of certain risks in such situations these days. For example my wife was 40 when she had our first recently and, due to her age, had the triple test to screen for certain potential problems with the option available to go for amniocentesis if necessary (it wasn't). As it happens she had a very smooth pregnancy overall. She was a smoker up to a few years ago and rekons that giving them up had a positive impact on fertility. For what it's worth we don't consider having our first around our 40s to be any major issue but obviously other people have their own view.

In relation to some of the other comments about wanting/not wanting children I have to say that I varied from decisively not wanting them to not being that pushed. I had a lot of experience minding kids in the extended family from when I was younger to ensure that I had no romantic or idealised concept of what was involved. To be honest I was generally of the opinion that I did not want the responsibility. However my wife was different and while it was not a dominant issue in our relationship (of c. 16 years now including 5 of marriage) it was something that we were both aware of and on which point we both understood our respective views. In the end there was no explicit decision/declaration but we both knew what we were doing when she (eventually - as mentioned previously it's not always straightforward!) became pregnant. Once this became a reality rather than just an abstract concept it was (and still is 10 months on from the birth) obviously a fairly daunting proposition but I/we just have to get on with it now and I certainly have no regrets about how things have turned out.


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## ney001 (1 Aug 2006)

My OH is eight years older than me so this is a little bit awkward - he doesn't want to be too old to have then and I don't want to be too young to have them.  A part of me thinks that it's alright for him,  he was drinking and having a laugh through his entire twenties now he's mid 30's he feels like he wants a child whereas I'm still in my twenties wanting to enjoy life!. 
Damn Zegar - wasn't really thinking about this till now!!!


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## ZEGAR (1 Aug 2006)

Nay001..I am in the same boat..My OH is younger than me by about 4 years..I feel its not the right time for him but is for me...He is willing to try fatherhood as he knows there is an issue of time...I am not going to wait till he hits 30 to start a family as I will be 34 at that stage and that is too long for me to wait..I accept that he wont have as much of a hands on part as me (same as the house work) and I think he is quite happy as long as nothing get too much in the way of  his Sunday morning golf...I wish I never brought this up either..Now I am all confused..Ellamac ,your feckin story did not help at all..Too much harsh reality...Oh god what a mess


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## ney001 (1 Aug 2006)

Have you tried keeping a cat alive for a  year? - If this works have the baby - but you might have to get rid of the cat


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## ellamac (1 Aug 2006)

Ney001 - I think that's a brillant idea! My hubbie wanted goldfish, so I told him if he did, they were to be his responsibility, cleaning, feeding etc.  So two weeks ago he came home with his chest puffed out, feeling great and bought tank etc and four fish, eeny, meany, miney and mo (I know so original!) Well to date, mo & meany are alive!! I related looking after fish to looking after children and he said that's it, we're definitely not having any!!


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## ney001 (1 Aug 2006)

You could always ask a friend with kids, how much roughly they spend per week on theirs.  Then save this amount each week and in January when everybody is miserable you and the other half feck off to the Caribbean for 3 weeks, go scuba diving, drinking get a tan, come back and see if you would prefer the kids instead.

I used the fish one myself a year ago - turns out he got completely feckin hooked (ha ha) and I now have a giant 150 litre tank in my sitting room which we have to figure out how to move this week!.  I find the cats good because they wake us up every morning about 6 for food!


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## ClubMan (1 Aug 2006)

ellamac said:
			
		

> My hubbie wanted goldfish, so I told him if he did, they were to be his responsibility, cleaning, feeding etc.  So two weeks ago he came home with his chest puffed out


 Was it pollution or what?


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## ZEGAR (1 Aug 2006)

ney001 said:
			
		

> Have you tried keeping a cat alive for a year? - If this works have the baby - but you might have to get rid of the cat


 
He takes really good care of his golf clubs. Does that count ?????


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## ney001 (1 Aug 2006)

Club man - very good!

Zegar - get one of those dolls that the American kids get in school - it cries and wees etc, then on a Sunday morning when he is on the golf course ring him on the mobile while standing in your pyjamas and in foul mood from lack of sleep and tell him that you have had enough and he needs to come home and help with the baby.  If he comes home within the hour - have a baby, if he sods off to pub and doesn't come home at all then I think you have your answer.  You could also try putting play doh in the end of his golf bag and writing on it with magic markers  - if he doesn't get mad you're okay!


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## ZEGAR (1 Aug 2006)

That answers all my questions..I am not even allowed touch the shaft (no jokes please) of the club after it has been washed ...Its sacred and dont go near his balls (no jokes please)..So I guess I will get a goldfish instead.


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## foxylady (1 Aug 2006)

ZEGAR said:
			
		

> Nay001..I am in the same boat..My OH is younger than me by about 4 years..I feel its not the right time for him but is for me...He is willing to try fatherhood as he knows there is an issue of time...I am not going to wait till he hits 30 to start a family as I will be 34 at that stage and that is too long for me to wait..I accept that he wont have as much of a hands on part as me (same as the house work) and I think he is quite happy as long as nothing get too much in the way of his Sunday morning golf...I wish I never brought this up either..Now I am all confused..Ellamac ,your feckin story did not help at all..Too much harsh reality...Oh god what a mess


 
I like the way you say he is willing to try fatherhood, its not exactly like you can bring the baby back for a refund if he doesnt like it. you probably should be discussing your feelings with your oh as opposed to everyone else as everyone differs when it comes to kids. I have a teenage son, who Iwouldnt be without and I never would have called myself a "kid "person


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## ellamac (1 Aug 2006)

Ah Clubman - you're with it today!! Let's just say he's learnt his lesson!!

Why not try babysitting for a whole weekend - it really is wonderful.  You can't wait to pick them up on Friday evening and don't want to drop them off at super speed on the Sunday (yeah right) then motherhood is calling!


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## ney001 (1 Aug 2006)

Zegar

Never mind age and job - conceiving in the first place might be a problem ha ha ha!!.  It does sound like he's only considering this for your sake - do you know any kids you can borrow for a weekend, nephews, godchildren etc?.  Try to get a good one, not one of the snotty nosed ones!!


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## TarfHead (1 Aug 2006)

ney001 said:
			
		

> do you know any kids you can borrow for a weekend, nephews, godchildren etc?.


 
Failing that .. try spending a weekend where you set an alarm to wake you every hour during the night, then get up at 07:00 both mornings to watch kids TV. Offer to do a sibling's or friend's laundry that weekend too so you've extra housework lined up too.

About 09:30 head out somewhere to do something that you wouldn't normally choose to do, perhaps even something that you don't enjoy. Get back about 12:00 and hit the housework in a furious burst for about 2 hours, making sure to do so without making any noise.

Don't indulge yourself by sitting down to eat a meal in peace. Eat while on the move and try to drink a cup of tea of coffee one gulp every 2 minutes. Lie on the floor and and idly push around a small object, while resisting the urge to sleep. Later, go out again to do something else that you wouldn't normally choose to do, for a couple of hours.

About 8pm, start tidying up and try to catch up on your day, but that won't happen cos what you know as your day doesn't exist any more.  Fall asleep in front of the TV, drag yourself off to bed and then do the same all over again for the 2nd 24 hours of your weekend. On Sunday night about 23:00, have a major panic cos you've nothing clean or ironed for the morning, fo you or for anyone else.

This exaggerates the downside. You wouldn't have the compensation of the little person's company, smile or touch but there are days where you feel you're an indentured slave.

Over 6 years later, I still mourn my childless (and somethimes even my single) days when the whole weekend stretched out in front of me like an unexplored land, but not so much as I used to. To see him swim for the first time without armbands, her cycle for the first time without stabilisers .. the good days outnumber the not so good.


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## ZEGAR (1 Aug 2006)

foxylady said:
			
		

> I like the way you say he is willing to try fatherhood, its not exactly like you can bring the baby back for a refund if he doesnt like it. you probably should be discussing your feelings with your oh as opposed to everyone else as everyone differs when it comes to kids. I have a teenage son, who Iwouldnt be without and I never would have called myself a "kid "person


 
Very true..I have discussed all this with him but it's also interesting to hear other peoples opinions and I feel it's helpful to know your not the only one with mixed feelings about this topic.


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## ney001 (1 Aug 2006)

You're definitely not alone on this one!, confusion reigns!.  What I will say is don't give it too much thought, once you love your OH and are in a stable and happy relationship then that's your foundation; age, money, childcare, jobs etc all of these work themselves out or you work around them! - Millions of people manage it so I reckon when the time is right I'll manage as well!


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## ClubMan (1 Aug 2006)

I doubt that there's anybody with or without children who does not have doubts about parenthood!


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## demoivre (1 Aug 2006)

ellamac said:
			
		

> The number one child who is my godchild and who I adored, has now become a spoilt brat - sorry but there really is no easy way to say it, completely 100% spoilt.  New baby never sleeps and never stops crying and my friend did not bond with this baby.  Plus husband still has his life uninterupted! Manages to go out every Fri, Sat & Sunday! The new baby is now 3 months old and my friend honestly said that if she could turn back the clock she would - this is not what she wanted from life and wishes she never had second baby.



Says more about the parents than the kids - monumental incompetence imo. Babies cry when there is something wrong - that's one of the ways they communicate .Profoundly  worrying to hear that an unwanted baby is in such distress - do the child a favour and call social services if the parents can't cope .


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## MissRibena (1 Aug 2006)

I'm really glad I posted to this thread.  I think it's one of the most honest ever on such a personal subject.  

I'm no closer to a resolution on my/our decision but it's nice to hear some "mature" opinions.  People I know more superficially claim all kinds of miracles about having kids - it's like Cilit Bang to me; it might be great, but there must be some consequences somewhere.  My closer friends, while steering clear of warning me off (presumably due to their love and loyalty to their children), don't exactly encourage me to dive right in.   Yeah MrRibena reckons he'd be the bees-knees and the spiders-elbows if we had kids, and in fairness to him (I really don't mean to be disloyal at all; it's a general rather than specific-to-him worry), he really is better than your average guy at housework and minding the cats and handling kids of sisters/friends and other indicitive things.  However, I would be completely stupid and naive not to relate all the real world situations that I have seen (like ellamc) to my own.  In the end of the day, if we don't have children, I could still see a productive and fulfilled life for us in lots of ways.  

To everyone who contributed to the thread so far; thank you (in a non-mushy/financial-website appropriate type of way) 
Rebecca


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## RainyDay (2 Aug 2006)

Very interesting thread - Just a few specific points....

To say that IVF isn't guaranteed is an understatement. Success rates are around 25% and decrease significantly when the mother goes over 40.

One poster mentioned difficulties in relating to other people's kids. I've experienced an inexplicible transformation, insofar as I now seem to be magically endowed with the ability to hold conversation with many young kids (teenagers are a different story, of course) since I became a parent. Indeed at times, the kids give a little more information than I needed to know. One slightly chubby 5 year old told me at Christmas time that her Mammy wished that she (the 5 year old) would lose a bit of weight for Christmas. 

I don't think it makes a huge amount of sense to base the decision on the experiences of others, though I do see value in a discussion like this. 400 people are killed on the road every year, but we don't all suddendly give up driving because other people are killed. Have an open and frank discussion with your partner. Understand there are no guarantees in terms of relationship or job.


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## Lorz (2 Aug 2006)

Ellamac - I really think the problems your 2 amigos are having are based on their relationship with their partners as opposed to the children - there is clearly a lack of communication in both relationships.  If they feel their partner is not doing enough - tell him!  INSIST that he pulls his weight.  If I thought I could get away with doing nothing around the house - I would - gladly!  

As I said in my previous post - Don't expect children to make a bad relationship better - they will most likely make a good relationship bad - but only if you let them - take responsibility for your life - if you're not happy - talk to your partner - nobody is a mind reader! - (only the psychics on 1550 no's! ;-)


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## hotlips (2 Aug 2006)

MissRibena
Very interesting to read your concerns. I am of pretty much the same mind as you. I worry though that I will regret the decision not to have kids later in life, that it could be the biggest mistake I ever made. I hope not.


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## ClubMan (2 Aug 2006)

RainyDay said:
			
		

> To say that IVF isn't guaranteed is an understatement. Success rates are around 25% and decrease significantly when the mother goes over 40.


 Similarly the chances of conception through intercourse are on average c. 20-30% if I recall correctly.


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## Betsy Og (2 Aug 2006)

Nobody has so far mentioned the sort of primal notion that you have kids so they will be there to mind you when you get older. It seems in Africa people had a good few as inevitably some would not survive.


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## ZEGAR (2 Aug 2006)

Betsy Og said:
			
		

> Nobody has so far mentioned the sort of primal notion that you have kids so they will be there to mind you when you get older. It seems in Africa people had a good few as inevitably some would not survive.


 
Very true..It did enter my head that after about 30 years in a relationship with no kids you might just be a bit bored of each other...I think children add a new dynamic


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## Kiddo (2 Aug 2006)

ClubMan said:
			
		

> Similarly the chances of conception through intercourse are on average c. 20-30% if I recall correctly.


 
Thats right Clubman -20% chance per month for a healthy couple with no fertility issues.

Not to be all doom and gloom but its also worth remembering that female fertility starts to decline in the late 20's and declines rapidly after 35....not that age should be the only factor. Most doctors won't refer a couple on to a fertility specialist unless they have been trying for at least 12 months (if the woman is over 35 then its 6). There is currently a 4 to 6 month waiting list for an initial consultation.

I know we just assumed that we'd start trying and taa daa 9 months later we'd have a baby...but mother nature doesn't work like that


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## ney001 (2 Aug 2006)

My sister in law is in this boat - she's now 37 and is only now thinking about IVF - she just assumed there wouldn't be a problem.  It's so hard on her every month, she convinces herself that this is the month!.  She gets really annoyed when she sees these young girls just having a kid at 16/17 without putting any thought into it!.  It's especially hard when relatives come home from England etc and go on at her over lack of children. 

Even though it was said earlier that it would be easier if the decision was made for you as to whether or not to have kids- in this case it appears that my sis in law has had a decision made for her and it's not the one she wanted.


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## casiopea (2 Aug 2006)

ney001 said:
			
		

> .... It's especially hard when relatives come home from England etc and go on at her over lack of children.




I think its disgraceful the way people do this, and relatives are one thing but work colleauges are terrible for asking these types of very personal questions.  I had someone from work ask me this morning on skype(!) about the pitter patter of tiny casiopea feet.  It is so unbelievably rude, but seems to be acceptable behaviour.

I dont ask them about their plans for offspring, or what theyve planned for their nether regions so why is it ok for them to ask me about my uterus? Its a serious topic (as reflected in this thread) and not something lightly to be discussed with a near stranger on skype.

Anyways, apologies, Im ranting.


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## Thrifty (2 Aug 2006)

Whats even worst is when relatives (in my case) start talking about my biological clock ticking by ... and i'm single!


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## ney001 (2 Aug 2006)

My mother in law sees it as a sign of weakness not to have children, especially now that her darling daughter has a child (she had it as a plaster on a very bad relationship, he left her shortly after birth anyway).  Now her daughter has moved home, doesn't cook, clean or do anything and goes out at least 3 nights a week, she gave up work altogether and sits at home moaning about how hard it is being a single parent!! And his mother acts like I have something wrong with me!  

People need to be sensitive about these issues - if a couple choose not to have children they shouldn't have a stigma attached to them!


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## ClubMan (2 Aug 2006)

ney001 said:
			
		

> People need to be sensitive about these issues - if a couple choose not to have children they shouldn't have a stigma attached to them!


Equally people/couples who decide not to have children should tell others to mind their own business when necessary.


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## liteweight (2 Aug 2006)

Every time I visited the in-laws, at some point in the day, father in law would let out a big sigh and say.."I think I'll die before I see grandchildren'. Used to find it very annoying. We had our first baby when I was 28 and that was 24 years ago. At the time all the nurses and doctors referred to me as 'the older mother' and all were warned to be careful with me because of my age having my first! How times have changed!


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## ZEGAR (2 Aug 2006)

liteweight said:
			
		

> Every time I visited the in-laws, at some point in the day, father in law would let out a big sigh and say.."I think I'll die before I see grandchildren'. Used to find it very annoying. We had our first baby when I was 28 and that was 24 years ago. At the time all the nurses and doctors referred to me as 'the older mother' and all were warned to be careful with me because of my age having my first! How times have changed!


 
Makes you think....I was told by my doctor to start considering having children because,as he put it "In the world of having babies you are ancient"...I was 28 for god sake..


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## Sol28 (2 Aug 2006)

ClubMan said:
			
		

> Equally people/couples who decide not to have children should tell others to mind their own business when necessary.


 
Similarly I get such stupid comments made to me. About "Oh isnt it well for you never to have to have children" And about how the social life will never be disrupted. Just because I am a gay man and its highly unlikely I will have them - it doesn't mean I dont want them. I have the same intincts as every other person, male, female, gay, straight, other... And have told people off in the past for making such assumptions

I like kids - get on great with my nephews and nieces and they with me. Society I dont think has grown up enough to fully embrace the alternative family. Getting better but still a long way off!


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## autumnleaf (2 Aug 2006)

How’s this for tactlessness: There’s a woman whose brother died of cystic fibrosis, a genetic disease. At family gatherings, their relatives are always asking her and her husband “so when are ye two planning on having kids?” I wouldn’t be surprised someone asked it at her brother’s funeral!

On another note: has anyone wanted children but were unable to have them because of infertility or being unlucky in love or some other reason? I don’t mean relatives’ comments but just general plans for the future. If your plans included babies but then no babies happen, what did you decide to do with this “change of plan”?


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## annR (2 Aug 2006)

I know a couple who were also being asked about when they were starting a family and in private were suffering greatly with repeated miscarraiges etc . . .I would never ask a couple this question and people who do should be reminded of their incredible lack of tact.


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## michaelm (2 Aug 2006)

Looking after children can be very tough at times but is also hugely rewarding. Age is a factor as, amongst other things, it gets harder to conceive and the curve for Downs and other issues start to rise steeply after 35.  Talk of 'stable relationships' is all well and good but if you're going to have children, in Ireland anyway, you should strongly consider getting married first.  Also if you're going to have a few kids you should forget about job/career, commuting, crèches etc and be prepared to sacrifice one income and look after your own children yourself, at least until  you get the youngest out to school.  Sol28: It's spurious to suggest that 'society  hasn't grown up enough' because it places the Adam and Eve model ahead of the Adam and Steve model.  ZEGAR: it's sound like you should be taking Folic acid, just in case.


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## shnaek (2 Aug 2006)

ClubMan said:
			
		

> In relation to some of the other comments about wanting/not wanting children I have to say that I varied from decisively not wanting them to not being that pushed....
> However my wife was different and while it was not a dominant issue in our relationship (of c. 16 years now including 5 of marriage) it was something that we were both aware of and on which point we both understood our respective views.


Chalk it down. I am well in the same boat. I love my life, waking up every day thinking how great life is. Since I left home I haven't lived in one place nor worked in one place longer than a few years. I don't need a life changing experience - I know what I value in life and I honour it, and I honour people. I fear a child would be the worst thing that could happen to me, but I have to consider it for the sake of my OH. 
But fair play on the post peeps- great to hear such honest, well thought out opinion.


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## Sol28 (2 Aug 2006)

michaelm said:
			
		

> Sol28: It's spurious to suggest that 'society hasn't grown up enough' because it places the Adam and Eve model ahead of the Adam and Steve model.


 
Just my point made - Thank you!  I would in every circumstance prefer to see a child born and raised by two loving parents who are in a stable relationship, Than any one take on the burden alone. I see more kids being born to those who dont want them or had an "accident" or two or ten. 

I know of one irish case - M-M couple and F-F couple had a kid - Raised by the female couple - But that kid had 4 loving and fully supportive 'parents' who had to go to a lot of hassle to have that kid - I think that kid is lucky - because it was wanted, planned for and provided for.


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## ney001 (2 Aug 2006)

michaelm said:
			
		

> Looking after children can be very tough at times but is also hugely rewarding. Age is a factor as, amongst other things, it gets harder to conceive and the curve for Downs and other issues start to rise steeply after 35.  Talk of 'stable relationships' is all well and good but if you're going to have children, in Ireland anyway, you should strongly consider getting married first.  Also if you're going to have a few kids you should forget about job/career, commuting, crèches etc and be prepared to sacrifice one income and look after your own children yourself, at least until  you get the youngest out to school.  Sol28: It's spurious to suggest that 'society  hasn't grown up enough' because it places the Adam and Eve model ahead of the Adam and Steve model.  ZEGAR: it's sound like you should be taking Folic acid, just in case.




I agree that marriage is important and I myself couldn't consider children without being married - this is not a religious thing I just feel that it's human nature to get lazy/bored in a relationship and marriage makes you work through these issues rather then just letting you walk away.  Re giving up work etc I completely disagree, we couldn't afford to live on one income, we couldn't pay mortgage, pay for cars etc without two incomes - as is the way in a lot of homes in Ireland these days.  Even if we could afford to live on OH's income (which is the highest), why should women feel that they have to give up their jobs and independance while man heads off to work every day.  I don't think it should be one or the other - I think you can work and have kids, the only real priorty should be providing a stable, healthy and happy home for any little ones you bring into the world.


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## ZEGAR (2 Aug 2006)

Sol28 said:
			
		

> Just my point made - Thank you!  I would in every circumstance prefer to see a child born and raised by two loving parents who are in a stable relationship, Than any one take on the burden alone. I see more kids being born to those who dont want them or had an "accident" or two or ten.
> 
> I know of one irish case - M-M couple and F-F couple had a kid - Raised by the female couple - But that kid had 4 loving and fully supportive 'parents' who had to go to a lot of hassle to have that kid - I think that kid is lucky - because it was wanted, planned for and provided for.


 
I agree completely with Sol28.
    Loving parents is all that are need..There are enough people out there with children that should probably not even be allowed to keep animals.

I do however see one cruelty in same sex parent situations ,and that is how they are treated by society.Many people would disagree with placing a child in this situation.
   Of course this is societies problem but a change is society is not going to happen over night..
    I do think we are moving in that direction slowly but surely.


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## Betsy Og (2 Aug 2006)

ney001 said:
			
		

> Re giving up work etc I completely disagree, we couldn't afford to live on one income, we couldn't pay mortgage, pay for cars etc without two incomes - as is the way in a lot of homes in Ireland these days. Even if we could afford to live on OH's income (which is the highest), why should women feel that they have to give up their jobs and independance while man heads off to work every day. I don't think it should be one or the other - I think you can work and have kids, the only real priorty should be providing a stable, healthy and happy home for any little ones you bring into the world.


 
Ideally the above would apply and all women would be "women who can have it all" .... if they wanted. I'd say the tables have turned a bit on that one in that a woman who wants to stay home is at risk of being labelled lazy/unambitious/a failure. My OH, Mrs. Betsy, is on maternity leave with #1. I am at pains to point out that I'm not ordering her back to work and that I wouldnt think she's a sponger/failure if she didnt. Luckily we'd get by/be fine on my wage so thats enough for me. Less wealth would be more than compensated for by a less rushed home.  

I dont think I'd like life if we were both on the big commute to the pressurised job to pay the jumbo mortgage, drop off and collect kids. I know thats a reality for many and I aint judging them but I think if one partner wants to be the carer and its financially feasible (a cut in "standard of living" is an acceptable choice I think) then they should be supported, and consideration should be given to stepping back from the rat race if its going to stress/chronically tire both out and not be ideal for their kids. 

TBH much of the above is more of a transportation issue with Irelands crazy commutes, but I suppose we cant ignore its knock on effects.


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## michaelm (2 Aug 2006)

ney001 said:
			
		

> . . we couldn't afford to live on one income, we couldn't pay mortgage, pay for cars etc without two incomes


If you crunch the numbers you might be surprised what is achievable; although Tax Individualisation does make it a bit more difficult. 





			
				ney001 said:
			
		

> . . why should women feel that they have to give up their jobs and independance while man heads off to work every day.


It's not a case of 'have to' but that you can 'choose to' on the basis that the best environment for pre-school children is their own home with one of their parents.  I feel sorry for the little ones whom are woken early to be driven to some crèche every morning and might spend up to 10 hours there before being collected in the evening.


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## ClubMan (2 Aug 2006)

shnaek said:
			
		

> I fear a child would be the worst thing that could happen to me


Actually - and I'm not being facetious here - at various times I wondered, for various reasons, if having a child might be the worst thing that could happen to the child! However, even if it's early days, it hasn't worked out anything like that so far. Looking at things more objectively I reckon that this was distorted thinking on my part.


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## speirbhean (2 Aug 2006)

"...why should women feel that they have to give up their jobs and independance while man heads off to work every day..."

What about men giving up their jobs/ going part time? In a lot of cases these days, women are more highly qualified/ earning more money than their partners - but they are still seen as the ones 'most likely' to stay home if the need arises. What do you think - does society still shy away from the idea of the 'stay at home' husband? Personally speaking I'd like to see a society where each parent would have the option of taking up to a year off work, so that the child gets around two years of full time care at home but neither parent feels he/she has made the whole sacrifice.


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## RainyDay (3 Aug 2006)

ClubMan said:
			
		

> Similarly the chances of conception through intercourse are on average c. 20-30% if I recall correctly.


I haven't come across this figure. I guess it may be an average figure which masks the spike in fertility which occurs for the 2-3 days around ovulation. [broken link removed] mentions that 'It is estimated that women in their 30s, particularly those over the age of 35, have less than a 10% chance per month of becoming pregnant'. If this statement is intended to equate an IVF cycle with intercourse, it is way off the mark.

You get to do maybe 2 or 3 IVF cycles per annum. It costs you about €4k for every IVF cycle. The IVF cycle takes 'manual override' to the ladies' hormonal system and floods her system in order to stimulate ovulation and produce multiple eggs (10-20 eggs are common, compared to 1 for a typical natural cycle). Both man and woman throw their dignity out the window, with him popping off into a jar on a regular basis in the nice room with the magazines and her being pricked & poked by medics & possibly herself or her partner (daily hormonal injections can be given at home, to reduce the number of visits to the clinic). Living on tenterhooks for the initial 2 week wait for the pregnancy isn't much fun and wondering about the increased probabilities of multiple birth (with all the associated increased risk to mother & children) for the next 2 months before the first scan is kind-of scary. Any IVF parent who had surplus embryos frozen for future IVF cycles is now left wondering how the bewigged folks over at the Supreme Court are going to interfere.

IVF is not a fun experience. Of course, in the context of the end result, it is absolutely worth it, but it is not 'similar to intercourse'.


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## casiopea (3 Aug 2006)

michaelm said:
			
		

> Age is a factor as, amongst other things...



On the plus side of age, I have friends whove had babies in their 30s and said that they are glad they didnt do it younger.  That they werent ready then for such a life change, that their relationship with their partner is stronger/more stable now than it was in their 20s and that they (the mother in this case but Im sure it applies to men to) were happpier to make the sacrifices now and wanted it (to have babies and the life changes that come with it) more.  

None of these friends and cousins have regrets that they will be 60 plus or approaching 60 when the sprong is 21.


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## shnaek (3 Aug 2006)

ClubMan said:
			
		

> Actually - and I'm not being facetious here - at various times I wondered, for various reasons, if having a child might be the worst thing that could happen to the child!


The child would have me wrapped around it's fingers, just like the OH has at the mo  No, it'd be a disaster. I am sure of it!!


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## ney001 (3 Aug 2006)

Betsy Og said:
			
		

> Ideally the above would apply and all women would be "women who can have it all" .... if they wanted. I'd say the tables have turned a bit on that one in that a woman who wants to stay home is at risk of being labelled lazy/unambitious/a failure. My OH, Mrs. Betsy, is on maternity leave with #1. I am at pains to point out that I'm not ordering her back to work and that I wouldnt think she's a sponger/failure if she didnt. Luckily we'd get by/be fine on my wage so thats enough for me. Less wealth would be more than compensated for by a less rushed home.


 

I agree completely that if a woman/man decides to stay home to look after children they should absolutely feel free to do this - it's a great thing to do and if I'm honest I'd love to feel that maternal need to stay at home (and have the money to do it).  Personally though I wouldn't want to stay at home, I'm not trying to be some kind of go-getter supermum - I would just feel the need to be out working - I've always worked hard and have reached where I want to be career wise and I think I might resent having to give that up.  I understand what you say about stay at home mothers being labelled lazy etc but from my experience it's the stay at home mothers who label the working gals! - I used to hear it all the time when I picked my younger sister up from school - mother's in the playground would be blaming the fact that one particular child was rude/hyper on the fact that both parents work etc etc - I found them very tedious and perhaps a little resentful!.


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## ClubMan (3 Aug 2006)

RainyDay said:
			
		

> IVF is not a fun experience. Of course, in the context of the end result, it is absolutely worth it, but it is not 'similar to intercourse'.


Who said that it was?


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## ClubMan (3 Aug 2006)

RainyDay said:
			
		

> I haven't come across this figure.


 I came across it recently in this book. A quick _Google _search suggests that it is indeed a commonly accepted average figure. Of course averages can be misleading. My point was to clarify in the context of the overall discussion that there is absolutely no certainty about conceiving through intercourse even when there are no overriding fertility problems.





> IVF is not a fun experience. Of course, in the context of the end result, it is absolutely worth it, but it is not 'similar to intercourse'.


 For what it's worth I neither made nor inferred either of these points.


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## Sol28 (3 Aug 2006)

ZEGAR said:
			
		

> I do however see one cruelty in same sex parent situations ,and that is how they are treated by society.Many people would disagree with placing a child in this situation.
> Of course this is societies problem but a change is society is not going to happen over night..
> I do think we are moving in that direction slowly but surely.


 
Again - Thats my point - One major reason I wouldnt decide on having kids, even if the time and situation was right, is that the kids may be discriminated against based on their parents situation. 

But realistically - this is no different than kids born to other minorities, though there is more protection in place for kids from the other minorities. Its the church fundamentalists that cause the worst problems - All in the name of their faith. (Note: I have no problem with religion _per se _- but do with those people who take it to extremes)


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## liteweight (3 Aug 2006)

When we had our first child I gave up work simply because I didn't feel anyone could look after her as well as I/we could. It was a personal choice and one I've never regretted. I still meet young women who would like to do this but can't, for economic reasons, which is a shame. Far from being lazy, I found staying at home was much harder than going to work. Apart from the obvious joy of the children, work at home is repetitive and often thankless! It's also a 24 hour job.

As stated in a previous post, I used to take temp work and later worked from home for my husband and others. I used to find this a great break. At dinner parties etc. I frequently met working women who imagined I was judging them for leaving the children. Not so!! I firmly believe that whatever makes the woman/mother happiest is the best course to take. A woman who feels forced to stay at home with kids IMO will not make the best mother. It's really horses for courses.


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## daveco23 (3 Aug 2006)

Mrs Daveco due to have #1 next month and is undecided as to whether to go back to work or not. From a financial point of view there is no need - not loaded, but a few lifestyle changes / sacrifices would see us through. As mentioned earlier in the post, its the commute that would do us in.. OH works in IFSC and we live in Greystones, so about 75 mins each way door to door. Probability is that she will get something part time locally, not for financial reasons or to prove herself career wise - simply to get out of the house every now and again and not feel exluded from the rest of society..

As to the question of when / where / best time to have a baby, the answer is that there is no answer. If you look at it, there is no right time - there will always be some obtacle on the horizon you feel you have to clear before the time is right. One could have done everything, travelled, career, right partner, right house, right age, but there will always be something around the corner to put kids on the back burner. Bottom line is that if you both want them then have them. As mentioned earlier, everything else just falls into place.


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## autumnleaf (3 Aug 2006)

daveco23 said:
			
		

> As to the question of when / where / best time to have a baby, the answer is that there is no answer. If you look at it, there is no right time - there will always be some obtacle on the horizon you feel you have to clear before the time is right. One could have done everything, travelled, career, right partner, right house, right age, but there will always be something around the corner to put kids on the back burner. Bottom line is that if you both want them then have them. As mentioned earlier, everything else just falls into place.


 
But what if those obstacles are impossible to clear and everything doesn't just "fall into place"? If your ovaries/sperm/love life are just not co-operating in your grand plan? What do you do instead? 

Concentrate on your career? Travel? Learn to be a good uncle/auntie/best friend's babysitter? Take up painting/bungie jumping/nuclear physics?


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## ney001 (3 Aug 2006)

autumnleaf said:
			
		

> But what if those obstacles are impossible to clear and everything doesn't just "fall into place"? If your ovaries/sperm/love life are just not co-operating in your grand plan? What do you do instead?
> 
> Concentrate on your career? Travel? Learn to be a good uncle/auntie/best friend's babysitter? Take up painting/bungie jumping/nuclear physics?




I guess for some women this might be a relief  - if ovaries/sperm/love life don't fall into place then at least the decision is made for you and then perhaps you would be in a better position to get over any disappointment/regret/doubts and carry on with your life .  (I don't for one minute think it's easy to get over not being able to have kids)

Obviously this is not the case for everybody but I think that in this thread some women feel (including myself) overwhelmed by the idea of picking the right time to have kids - OP was wondering how  people pick the right time - what are the criteria they use?  - if there are health issues to deal with the question is answered for you!.


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## ClubMan (3 Aug 2006)

autumnleaf said:
			
		

> But what if those obstacles are impossible to clear and everything doesn't just "fall into place"? If your ovaries/sperm/love life are just not co-operating in your grand plan? What do you do instead?


Adoption and fostering are also possible alternatives for some people.


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## RainyDay (3 Aug 2006)

ney001 said:
			
		

> I guess for some women this might be a relief  - if ovaries/sperm/love life don't fall into place then at least the decision is made for you and then perhaps you would be in a better position to get over any disappointment/regret/doubts and carry on with your life .  (I don't for one minute think it's easy to get over not being able to have kids)
> 
> Obviously this is not the case for everybody but I think that in this thread some women feel (including myself) overwhelmed by the idea of picking the right time to have kids - OP was wondering how  people pick the right time - what are the criteria they use?  - if there are health issues to deal with the question is answered for you!.


Having experienced infertility issues for 5 years and followed the experiences of others both online (e.g. the 'trying to concieve' board on rollercoaster.ie) and in the real world, I've never come across any woman expressing relief at discovering infertility. I've come across expressions of despair, depression, fear, loss of identify, financial concerns, relationship concerns and a whole pile of other strongly negative emotions. Relief would be a first for me.



			
				ClubMan said:
			
		

> Adoption and fostering are also possible alternatives for some people.


I've never come across anyone who considered fostering to be an alternative to parenting. Adoption is indeed an alternative, and one which carries its own huge complexities and difficulties. The number of Irish children available for adoption is tiny, and foreign adoptions carry a pile of legal, financial and practical difficulties.


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## ClubMan (3 Aug 2006)

RainyDay said:
			
		

> Having experienced infertility issues for 5 years and followed the experiences of others both online (e.g. the 'trying to concieve' board on rollercoaster.ie) and in the real world, I've never come across any woman expressing relief at discovering infertility. I've come across expressions of despair, depression, fear, loss of identify, financial concerns, relationship concerns and a whole pile of other strongly negative emotions. Relief would be a first for me.


 But it sounds like, in the situations outlined, you would have been dealing mainly with women who avowedly wanted to conceive so obviously infertility would not have been a relief for them. Others might have a different view. 


> I've never come across anyone who considered fostering to be an alternative to parenting. Adoption is indeed an alternative...


 As is fostering for some people regardless of whether you personally happen to have met them or not.





> and one which carries its own huge complexities and difficulties. The number of Irish children available for adoption is tiny, and foreign adoptions carry a pile of legal, financial and practical difficulties.


 I imagine that most people realise this.


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## RainyDay (3 Aug 2006)

How would a woman discover her infertility unless she avowedly wanted to concieve? Do you know people for whom fostering has been their alternative to parenting?


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## ney001 (4 Aug 2006)

RainyDay said:
			
		

> Having experienced infertility issues for 5 years and followed the experiences of others both online (e.g. the 'trying to concieve' board on rollercoaster.ie) and in the real world, I've never come across any woman expressing relief at discovering infertility. I've come across expressions of despair, depression, fear, loss of identify, financial concerns, relationship concerns and a whole pile of other strongly negative emotions. Relief would be a first for me.



I'm not saying that women would be relieved to discover infertility!.  What I am saying is that for those women out there who don't particularly want kids but feel under pressure to have them anyway (parents or partners putting on pressure - or even themselves)  may feel a little relieved if the decision is made for them and I don't just mean infertility, they might not have met the right man etc but either way they don't have to agonise over whether or not they are making the right decisions or whether or not they can give up careers etc.  

I completely understand all of the negative emotions involved with a couple trying to have a baby - as previously stated my sister in law and another close friend cannot conceive.  In the case of my close friend she tried for many years to have kids and nothing worked, she and her husband were on the verge of splitting from the trauma of it all, however when she hit 40plus she realised that she had no control over this - the decision had been made for her and she had to get on with her life.  She and her husband got through it all and although they will always be missing something they have learned to accept it and enjoy holidays and just being with each other.    So yes I do think that in certain instances it is just easier if the decisions are made for you.


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## Cyrstal (4 Aug 2006)

I'm sorry, I really can't agee with the line of reasoning here with regards to a couple finding out they are infertile, and the decision being taken out of their hands.

There's a long drawn out process for someone to find out they are infertile, it's not like anyone is in two-minds about having a baby, and then they find out almost straight away they're infertile??  It can take years of investigations/procedures etc to find out - by this stage I don't think anyone is relieved at the decision being taken away from them, if they find out they can't have children.

Anyway, the only thing I can say about To have or not have a baby(if you're lucky enough to be able to make this decision!!) is that I have yet to meet a parent that has regretted it!!


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## autumnleaf (4 Aug 2006)

Hope I haven't dragged this discussion too much off track! To answer the OP's original question, personally I think the time to have kids is when (a) you want them (b) you are financially and emotionally stable and (c) you are in a stable relationship with a partner who also meets conditions a and b! Then you've got to cross your fingers there won't be complications with fertility. 
I don't have (c) at the moment and it's quite possible I'll be too old by the time I do, after all it takes a few years to build a relationship to a point where you can feel secure enough to start a family. Most of the time I'm OK with this and think I'll be happy being "cool auntie" or "mad dog lady". But other times I think it'd be kind of sad to miss out on that part of life.
For the moment it's out of my hands but so are a lot of other things I guess. "If you want to make God laugh, make a plan."


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## triona (4 Aug 2006)

This thread has really got me thinking about my own situation. I currently have a good career, earning good money (approx double what my boyfriend earns) but the job involves being abroad 3 days per week. We are getting married soon and have discussed having children (hopefully there will be no problems conceiving). My worry is though that I will have to sacrifice my current job when I have a baby.  I love my job but the company is small so there is little chance of my role changing to allow me to work in Ireland. My boyfriend would be perfectly happy to stay at home with the baby but I think on a personal level I couldn't continue to travel as much as I do. I suppose when it comes down to it I'll want to be close to my child......


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## ragazza (4 Aug 2006)

Triona, if you want a humerous account of a mother of two who travels a lot with her job, read the book " I dont know how she does it". Its fiction, and hilarious! (can't remeber who wrote it).


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## Vanilla (4 Aug 2006)

Before I had children I felt that I would always want to combine a full time career with having children and that all child related work and household work would be divided equally between my husband and I. Cue bitter laugh...

My husband is and always has been willing to do his share of all work and be thoroughly involved with our children. However I'm the one who physically had them and went on maternity leave. That covers about the first 3-4 months of your childs life. My husband works for a large company and regardless of his legal rights he would not be able to take time off to take care of our children- either by taking parental leave or just the odd day here and there- this would be frowned upon and his position would be questioned. I think this would be very different if he worked in the civil service but in the private sector for the most part I would think this would be the norm. 

The reality of the situation is that I take the lions share of caring for our children, and I run my own business and I do the lions share of the household work. ( Just call me superwoman). I arrange childcare, I plan ahead their meals, their clothes, vaccinations, everything. When they're sick or just have had a nightmare, its me they want. So I'm the one who stays up all night with them or takes time off when they are ill, or takes them to the doctor etc etc. I genuinely believe that this is the case for most women regardless of how enlightened their partner is.

I do resent this sometimes but what people don't realise until they have children is the huge emotional attachment and what that love will mean in terms of your lifestyle. It will mean that although you might still want to work, you will now put your children first. Whereas I might have thought before children that I would have no problem going back to work there's a whole emotional side of me that feels as if I am abandoning them every time I drop them off to the childminder or creche. I wouldn't feel the same if my husband were taking care of them, so I imagine that the reverse also applies. 

I was raised on a farm with a large family and so both my parents were around all the time as a child. That was idyllic. I often feel guilty that my children don't experience the same upbringing. Love and guilt play a large part in the working mothers life.

I found the whole experience of having my first child very hard and emotionally draining. I am a bit of a perfectionist anyway and so I worried all the time. I read every book going. I tried routines and organic homemade food, and rang everyone all the time for advice and questioned every thing and over analysed everything etc etc. It was, for me, an extremely steep learning curve because when it came to _my_ child it had to be perfect. I was absolutely responsible for this life in everyway and it hit hard. 

The other side of the coin is that you experience the worst of times but also the best _best _of times. There is nothing like the first smile- or the first belly laugh. Or the first steps. Or the first word, or countless other things. 

My second child was a joy from the very beginning probably because I am less worried about killing her accidently!


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## RainyDay (4 Aug 2006)

ney001 said:
			
		

> I'm not saying that women would be relieved to discover infertility!.  What I am saying is that for those women out there who don't particularly want kids but feel under pressure to have them anyway (parents or partners putting on pressure - or even themselves)  may feel a little relieved if the decision is made for them and I don't just mean infertility, they might not have met the right man etc but either way they don't have to agonise over whether or not they are making the right decisions or whether or not they can give up careers etc.


I agree with Crystal. You seem to underestimating the effort/time/commitment that is required even to just diagnose infertility. There will be 12 months of 'trying' before a GP will consider any intervention. Then probably another 1-2 years of charting ovulation, non-spontaneous intercourse timed to maximise chances of conception, possibly some medication. Then there will be the referral to the specialist, involving a couple of visits, blood tests (for him & her), ultrasound, possibly a laparoscopy, possibly a post-coital test, probably a couple of seperate semen analyses for him. Few couples will get this far with a strong commitment to having children, and I've never heard of a single case of 'relief' as the outcome of the diagnosis.


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## ACA (7 Aug 2006)

I don't believe that anyone is ever really 'ready' for children. And if you wait until you can afford them - you'll never have any! (I know *I'd* be childless if this was enforceable! )


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## chrisoz5 (8 Aug 2006)

Hi, sorry but I'm almost rolling around on the floor laughing at cars post on page 1, brilliant!! 

I have a 13mth old boy, he's class! but bloody hard work but I wouldnt do it any other way!

When we started to talk about a baby, it was I wanted it, my partner said okish, and I said I wouldnt worry if I occassionally forgot to take the pill, well after about 6mths of this nothing, so very anxiously came off the pill (actuallya anxious more about getting pregnant) second thoughts! lol
But it was another year before I got pregnant (without help but was seriously contemplating getting help)  I still had doubts, I think everyone must, maybe I'm wrong but I was always wondering what ifs?

my partner is self-employed and works alot, I knew this and used to work in the business with him, luckily its crazy busy, so financially good, but its on Long weekends like this that I start to get fed up, he has been working all weekend, so just me and the babs

But I still wouldnt change it!


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## Tarquin (10 Aug 2006)

Im the same, what a brilliant post on Page 1!!!

On a more serious note and not to put a dampner on the whole issue, genetic reasons are sombre issues surrounding myself and the fiance right now, regarding thinking about a baby. She has just gone for a test to see if she is a carrier of a disease that has wiped out siblings, first cousins and other relatives on her side and to be honest, I can't believe she got the courage to go for the test as she swore she would never have a baby after living with all the illness and death in her home. If she is a carrier, then I have to  go for a test and even then, there are no guarantees. They can't test for 10% of the genes for the disease and in a very very few cases, we were told at the Genetics centre that people have gone on to have a baby with the disease, after being told that only one of them was a carrier.

So for us, its not money, having a house, careers re a baby, its genetics and its also the effect of what my fiance has gone through with her siblings. We are doing tests only in case of an accident. Wont know the results for months either. But God willing,things will work out for the right reasons and if that means just ourselves for however  long we have, then that is fine.


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## Winnie (11 Aug 2006)

ah just spent ages typing a reply & it didnt post!   

Basically same situation as zegar - trying to decide how to decide it is the right time
- husband would be brilliant - I know this for sure.  He already more than pulls his weight around house & has lots of experience with kids
- Relationship fine - although I know of lots of people where they were fine until kids came along & then it was all fighting etc.....
- House & finances all more than adequate
- Jobs....mmm...both commute at the moment & work very hard including overtime etc.  Am not going to be one of those couples who drop kids off a creche at 6.30am to pick them up at 7.30 pm..................don't see the point.  But basically one of us would have to change our job scenario if we want kids - husband could jobshare (most likely option), I could change job.........definitely not going to have kids before this is decided as think it is very important
- how do you know that you will like your kids?  Im not a particularly mothery/unselfish type person.....mayb I would be crap & hate & resent my kids?  Does everyone automatically want to put kids first?  Both are very selfish at the moment.........
- Why do we even want to consider having kids in first place?  my hormone/society etc.......is it just that we are expected to?
- Cant ever see myself hoping into bed going ' we are going to make a baby now'!!  ugh......biggest turnoff ever......
- Always said if i was having some that it would be before I was 30..........but that gets closer & closer & is getting scary......

Dont' know the answers. 

I do think it is important to analyse before taking the leap tho.........too many people jump into it & then wonder why no one warned them of the downsides.


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## Marie M (11 Aug 2006)

Winnie said:


> too many people jump into it & then wonder why no one warned them of the downsides.



Like giving birth first time if everyone knew that pain beforehand, no one would go through it willingly.

But whether you jump into or plan it on a spreadsheet, it will always be an adventure. It is a descision but not say like moving house or job. Sure you get down days but I don't know any parent who ever saw downsides and regreted having their kids.


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## autumnleaf (11 Aug 2006)

Tristan, how utterly heartbreaking for you and your partner. To lose one sibling must be awful, to lose multiple siblings plus cousins is unimaginable. I hope things work out for ye, however the tests go. 
It's interesting how some people say "i'm not that into other people's kids, but i love my own" or "i was never maternal/paternal until i had my own". I actually really like kids. Not babies (they're a bit boring) but once you can actually talk with them they're gas. Recently i had a conversation with a 9-yr-old girl and she was so smart and funny. Her mother thanked me afterwards for keeping her occupied, but i said in all honesty that it was a pleasure. Of course there are some children who are absoloute horrors as well and you don't get to choose who to spend time with if they're your own. Which makes me think i'm more cut out to be a friend/auntie than a mother. 
Also interesting how people say "well, nobody ever regrets having children". If someone did regret it, would they ever dare to say so out loud? That would be like wishing the children did not exist and that's a horrible thing to say about anyone no matter what the circumstance. I know a woman who gave birth at 18 and she says she wishes she'd waited, but of course then she wouldn't have her son as he is, she'd have a different child altogether. In any case, regret is a wasted emotion so sometimes it's best once you've made a decision to just be happy that that's the way it was meant to be. No point in looking back constantly and saying "if only i'd taken that turn rather than this turn".


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## Lorz (11 Aug 2006)

autumnleaf said:


> Also interesting how people say "well, nobody ever regrets having children". If someone did regret it, would they ever dare to say so out loud?


 
Well, this mother has no problem in stating her children bore her to death!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/li...79&ico=Homepage&icl=TabModule&icc=FEMAIL&ct=5


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## RainyDay (11 Aug 2006)

Lorz said:


> Well, this mother has no problem in stating her children bore her to death!
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/li...79&ico=Homepage&icl=TabModule&icc=FEMAIL&ct=5



Poor kids - THey'd be better off if she gave them up to someone who cares.


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