# Is the current recession worse than the 80's?



## pinkyBear (3 Feb 2011)

Hi all,
Mr Bear and I were chatting last night about the current recession. I grew up in the republic, Mr. Bear is from the North.  

We were looking at our personal situation, I am in a secure job, my pay is ok, my job is relatively secure. Mr. Bear's job, well that is a different story, it really is a matter of days/weeks/months at this stage. We really don't know how long he will have a job for. 

So, for as long as we have known about Mr. Bears job we have been living on one salary. So if Mr. Bear gets paid, we save most of it, and pay the rest of our visa bill. So we are not too badly off. In that when he looses his job, we should be able to manage mortgage and living on my salary. 

However for me it kind of goes a bit deeper than that, because I can remember growing up in the 80's and my main memories is of my late father giving out about the amount of tax he had to pay and doing what ever he can to emigrate to Australia. My dad had an OK job, however he had no life, lived pay check to pay check, had 4 children to educate. So his desire to emigrate was to have a life for him and mam, and a future for his kids. 

I looked at my paycheck this month and I am paying €1000 in tax alone, I also pay €800 into my pension. When is enough, enough? I love my country, I love being near family, and I am trying so hard to be optimistic about the future.. 

But you know I fear the worst. I fear that the humble tax payer will have more and more tax hikes and really while we can survive in Ireland - we wont have a life.. Am I being too pessimistic?
P..


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## RMCF (3 Feb 2011)

No I think many feel exactly like you.

I work in NI and my OH is a public sector worker in Ireland, and the amount of deductions from her pay packet each month over the last couple of years is scary. And of course she has another 4 or 5 yrs of more cuts. Add to this rising costs, mortgages increasing, the likelihood of water and property taxes, and I think it points to this being tougher than the 80s. I am not old enough to have been working in the 80s, but I think that people now have taken on much more debt and unsecured loans than they ever would have in the 80s, which adds to the pressure for most.

I think we will get out of it, but its going to be hard, very hard. Plus we are saddled with a political system that doesn't seem to have a clue how to fix things. 

To end on, if we didn't have to pay back that €30bn - €50bn that we guaranteed, things might not be so painful.


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## truthseeker (3 Feb 2011)

I feel the same pinkybear.

Myself and OH are currently on 1 salary (mine), and Ive had paycuts plus government levies, increased taxes.

We are both educated well, he to masters level, me to post grad level.

For the time we put in studying, and the abilities we have, we have very little to show for 10+ years in the workplace. A tiny apartment in negative equity with a big mortgage, 1 small cheap car, VERY rare foreign holidays.

If we moved elsewhere in the world we could probably pull in over 100k between us. 

I wouldnt mind paying the taxes if you got something for them, but the country is in bits!!!

I look around and every family I know has someone out of work.

I just dont know what the future holds, I cant keep working myself to the bone and being taxed harder and harder and taking more paycuts, pay freezes etc... 

Im back to 2002 wages levels - but my expenses (mortgage, groceries, bills) are not back nearly so far!!! Plus with interest rates going up, vhi gone up etc... 

I dont know if its worth staying here - Im young enough to restart somewhere else.


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## shnaek (3 Feb 2011)

pinkyBear said:


> But you know I fear the worst. I fear that the humble tax payer will have more and more tax hikes and really while we can survive in Ireland - we wont have a life.. Am I being too pessimistic?
> P..


Very well put, and I feel exactly the same. Quality of life is more important than people seem to realise, and it is coming near tipping point for my family. I love this country, and I'd love to stay - just not at any price. The price is getting too high.


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## Firefly (3 Feb 2011)

shnaek said:


> Very well put, and I feel exactly the same. Quality of life is more important than people seem to realise, and it is coming near tipping point for my family. I love this country, and I'd love to stay - just not at any price. The price is getting too high.



I've mentioned this before - I think a lot of people with jobs will still emigrate. If the taxes get too high...ie no incentive to improve your lot...the best will leave with the rest.


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## Ceist Beag (3 Feb 2011)

Firefly said:


> I've mentioned this before - I think a lot of people with jobs will still emigrate. If the taxes get too high...ie no incentive to improve your lot...the best will leave with the rest.



It's not that easy Firefly - some won't be able to leave for various reasons (maybe too indebted to leave or family reasons).


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## fizzelina (3 Feb 2011)

Ceist Beag said:


> It's not that easy Firefly - some won't be able to leave for various reasons (maybe too indebted to leave or family reasons).


Yes I agree, a lot of people won't leave because they own their homes and have mortgages and it is better to stay and keep working (even at less money and higher taxes) as they would not be able to sell their homes in this market and pay back the mortgage with the proceeds. And there is also the case that emigrating is a huge step and some people will stay even in a worsening economic situation rather than emigrate.


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## pinkyBear (3 Feb 2011)

Hi there, Mr. Bear and I are talking about emigrating at the moment - we have a mortgage (unfortunately a large one too!!!), and we are currently weighing up our options. 

We wouldn't do a runner, the plan would be with the possible redundancy Mr bear would get we could use some of that to pay/top up the mortgage. We will probably wait for a year or so - see if he gets another job.  He is so negative right now - he is fearful that at his age he may never work again at a decent job (43)! Thats no way to live! 
P..


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## Firefly (3 Feb 2011)

Ceist Beag said:


> It's not that easy Firefly - some won't be able to leave for various reasons (maybe too indebted to leave or family reasons).




I agree but there are many people (single and married) without mortgages and others still who have mortgages but also enough savings to cover them  until they're set up abroad


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## micmclo (3 Feb 2011)

Had an ordinary enough childhood in the early 1980's my Dad could get a house and support a family on all on one wage, Mam stayed at home to mind us.
Oh we certainly were not rich. 

So during the Celtic Tiger of course we were told we were better off.
Just saying, nowadays it's hard to pay a mortgage and raise a family on one salary but far more families did it in decades past as mothers tended to stay at home

Or maybe I'm not explaining this well, hope you get my point


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## Caveat (3 Feb 2011)

Don't forget than even in the early 90s, unemployment was worse than it is now.


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## RonanC (3 Feb 2011)

I'm going to put my neck on the line here... 

I grew up in the 80's and nobody had anything, nobody around us had cars, very few had house phones, nobody went on holidays (except a week away in wexford or butlins), unemployment was very high, interest rates were even higher, some didnt see the recession at all, but most did. 

The late 00's and 10's so far to me are a totally different story. Most of us have anything and everything we could wish for, all around us here have 2/3/4 cars, everyone has laptops, mobiles, iphones, ipads and so on, weekends away in the sun and seeing new cities are still common place, eating out in fancy restaurants are still common place and drinking coctails for instance is more popular than ever before. 

There is a high rate of unemployment, I do admit but when compared to the level of employment at present, against anytime in the 80's and 90's, there are more people currently employed. I heard somewhere that our personal wealth is just as high as in Celtic Tiger times. 

Emigration is a hot topic, we see the figures every month, but has anyone questioned these figures? Where are the people going? Are they following employment or are they simply moving "home" after giving Ireland a few years of their time?

To sum up, I believe the recession in the 80's was far worse than it is now, Ireland has dipped into a period of economic recession, and it will more than likely dip again some time in the future but when you compare personal wealth, unemployment, employment and export figures we are far better off now, I honestly dont believe that as many are as affected as before.


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## horusd (3 Feb 2011)

To hear some of the stuff about the 80's you would think we all lived under a wet leaf, in the middle of a bog eating watery soup made out of a sheeps head, and paying 95% tax. It was pretty bad tho, I was in school then and also started work with the princely sum of £200 a month!  Your right  Ronan, we are far better off now materially, and it's a much more liberal and inclusive society now.  Not as insular  or conservative as then.


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## becky (4 Feb 2011)

I started working in 1989 for £60 a week - think my net pay was £58 or so.  I remember when I eventually made £100 I was loaded.  

I didn't have a car until I was 29 and didn't buy lancome or Estee Lauder until I was 25, I made do with rimmel and max factor.  

When I was finishing college we hoped for a job rather then expecting one.  

I do find it worse now though.  I don't remember the recession in the 80's being as depressing as it is now.


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## thedaras (4 Feb 2011)

Probably because we have higher expectations now? and why not..there is nothing wrong with wanting to do better.

Not many would be happy with the other half going to work while mammy stays at home minding the kids these days ,this in fact is not an option anyway for most due to the lack of jobs and those who have two people working are probably doing so to pay the massive mortgages they have,its very difficult for them.

There is a huge difference between having to go and wanting to go.
I know in the 80s it was much easier to sell up and go,but thats not the situation now.

For some reason some people seem to think that if you have "materiel " things that you cant be happy..wishfull thinking on their part.I honestly think some people think that because you have a holiday abroad with your family that you are somehow not being "Irish " enough,miserable is only an option

In the 80s my mother for example had to wash things by hand,had no car,no phone,a black and white TV,was dependent on my father for a wage,stayed at home with five kids,we got very little and had very little,were we happier in our misery..eh NO.
Things have improved thankfully,even looking at the dole queues ,most are well dressed and dont look like the impoverised lines of the 80s.

Divorce is now available here, separation was frowned upon in the 80s.
The internet has given people the chance to air their views,to go and meet others,this was not an option in the 80s.

The roads are better,cars are better,we have landlines,mobile phones,indoor toilets,we are generally not as badly treated by some,ie; there is now lone parents allowance etc,single parents are not treated like outcasts,we are more politically aware ,more worldly aware.

The welfare system has greatly improved,the quality of our lives has improved.

We should always strive for improvement ,there is nothing wrong in this,the church instilled a lot of guilt in people and had so much power in the 80s,now this has gladly changed.

We can speak up for ourselves,we can question Doctors/consultants/teachers/priests,that would have been very difficult in the 80s.

The quality of "flats" was  basic,we had very little rights,this has changed not entirely but a lot,we have more rights.

We now cannot smoke in cinemas/pubs etc,we have more equal rights,we have so much more now..pity we are about to lose it all...

To sum up, I lived through the 80s ,it was not pleasant,I would hate to think we are going backwards, that some people think everything was so much better then and people had more morals /values etc..this is not the case.
We are a better educated,better communicators,better at looking after others,we have a better standard of living.
I know many who have gone and are going,(emigration partys are the latest trend!),they have to do what they  have to do to get on in life.

Like I said earlier its a real pity that we may lose a lot of what we have fought hard to gain.


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## becky (4 Feb 2011)

thedaras, I agree with your post.  I just feel there is a lot of doom and gloom now but I suppose that is because I hadn't a care in the world back then.

I don't think everything was better in the 80's, just different.

As a society we have grown up a lot. I remember when an unmarried woman/girl getting pregnant was a scandal and something to be ashamed of.  My friend was screamed at, told to get out of the house for bringing shame on her family at the age of 22, and this wasn't unexpected. 

Thankfully we have moved on from this.


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## thedaras (4 Feb 2011)

Becky I think a lot of us  look back on our childhood /teenage years with a certain amount of nostalgia.
I Remember the sun shone "everyday" during the summer when we were kids.
As you said,thankfully we have moved on from this.


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## Welfarite (4 Feb 2011)

Very interesting thread. I think that lifestyle has an impact on how the current recession compares with the 1980s. In the 1980's we had little choice in how to cut back on spending; we either had a phone (landline of course, at whatever cost Telecom decided to charge us) or we didn't; we either had a car or used CIE (at whatever cost they wanted to charge us); we had 'sensible' mortgages (at whatever cost the building society charged us) or we rented because we could not get a mortgage; we had little 'free' entertainment to fill our unemployed hours (no PSPs, no satellite TV, free or otherwise, no internet). On the other side, we had neighbours we knew, we volunteered in the community, we didn't pay for refuse or recycling, we didn't have childcare costs or creches and we didn't have severe weather!


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## horusd (4 Feb 2011)

Of course, we weren't all saddled up to our eyeballs in crippling debt.  I suppose that's the one big negative.


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## truthseeker (4 Feb 2011)

The other big difference with the 80s is a far more well educated population. Its was unusual for someone to go to college in the 80s compared to now. This raises expectations of earning capacity and job satisfaction - and rightly so.

People are making comparisons with the 80s of having no car, no tv (or a black and white tv), washing things by hand etc... These items were prohibitively expensive in the 80s - and not just for Irish people, and not just because of recession. Electronics and cars have come way down in price since the 80s. People dont consider getting such items on the 'never never' anymore!!


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## MrMan (4 Feb 2011)

I think the internet has a role on our perception of things now. Forums such as this give a greater insight into just how well off others are and the flip side. There are plenty of doom and gloom mongers on line and it is almost impossible to not feel down when reading consistently negative posts regarding our country and our future. 24/7 news (and non news) isn't good for mental health.


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## RMCF (4 Feb 2011)

Misery makes good news stories. You never see the 9 o'clock news filled with feel good stories, do you?

The depression in the media was on full throttle for 18 months to 2 years, but I noticed it seemed to ease off for a few months. Did I imagine it or did the extreme cold weather over December just give the media something more depressing to moan about?

Anyway, the Prime Time and Front Line specials seem to be racketing the gloom up again.


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## pinkyBear (4 Feb 2011)

I cant remember the last time I saw the news!!! I am an early riser so am in bed at 9.30, the news just depressed me! 

I can recommend "The Wire" as an alternative to the news though
P..


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## becky (4 Feb 2011)

I don't watch the prime times / front lines anymore.  I listen to spin and 2 fm in the car in the evenings, not the drivetimes or last word.

Pinkybear I hated the wire and have yet to find a female who liked it who watched it herself ie: not with her husband or boyfriend.  Dominic West made it bearable but just about.

West wing suited me a lot more.


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## Complainer (9 Feb 2011)

The big difference now over the 80s is the level of personal debt - high mortgages, negative equity, credit card debt, CU loans - and govt debt that we are now carrying.


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## Purple (9 Feb 2011)

complainer said:


> the big difference now over the 80s is the level of personal debt - high mortgages, negative equity, credit card debt, cu loans - and govt debt that we are now carrying.



+1


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## gipimann (9 Feb 2011)

becky said:


> Pinkybear I hated the wire and have yet to find a female who liked it who watched it herself ie: not with her husband or boyfriend. Dominic West made it bearable but just about.


 
Becky.....you just found one!   I loved The Wire, and bought it & watched it for myself!

(sorry for dragging the thread off topic!)


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## horusd (9 Feb 2011)

All told, apart from all the debt we collectively hold now, I feel personally the 80's was worse. Having said that,some of the music that came out about the 80's recession was really good. Anyone remember UB40's "I am a one in ten " (1981 ) about the numbers unemployed ? Interesting to see what iconic songs, films etc which will come out of this one.

As a slight off topic ramble, I have reason to remember UB40. I was on a flight with them which almost couldn't land in Birmingham due to terrible weather. It was terrifying, all I could think about was that I wouldn't even get a mention in the papers if we crashed, it would be all about UB40!


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## Complainer (9 Feb 2011)

horusd said:


> All told, apart from all the debt we collectively hold now, I feel personally the 80's was worse. Having said that,some of the music that came out about the 80's recession was really good. Anyone remember UB40's "I am a one in ten " (1981 ) about the numbers unemployed ? Interesting to see what iconic songs, films etc which will come out of this one.


And The Special's 'Ghost Town' immortalised in Fr Ted years later.


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## pinkyBear (10 Feb 2011)

I think UB40 was named after an unemployment form in the UK... Simply red, Moneys to tight to mention!! I remember the miners strike (imortalised in Billy Elliott), and the Dunnes Stores strike.


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## Shawady (10 Feb 2011)

pinkyBear said:


> and the Dunnes Stores strike.


 
Is this the Dunnes strike over apartheid in south africa?
I seen a play about it before Christmas (called Strike). I think it is coimng back later this year. Worth seeing.

I remember thinking the film, The Commitments would be a good period piece when Ireland was a poor country. Remember the scene when they are all queing up for thei dole payments. Who thought those days would be back.


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## pinkyBear (10 Feb 2011)

Shawady said:


> Is this the Dunnes strike over apartheid in south africa?
> I seen a play about it before Christmas (called Strike). I think it is coimng back later this year. Worth seeing.
> 
> I remember thinking the film, The Commitments would be a good period piece when Ireland was a poor country. Remember the scene when they are all queing up for thei dole payments. Who thought those days would be back.



Thats the strike, and I remember hearing about the play - I would love to see it. I really admired those women.. And the commitments, an absolute classic film, I felt proud to be poor... 
P..


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## buzybee (12 Feb 2011)

I think that people in the 80s weren't used to having anything, whereas now people have got a higher standard of living and have to cut back again.

Also in the 80s, even though it was very hard to get a job, once you had a job you were unlikely to lose it, whereas now you could be let go at the drop of a hat (even with loads of education and experience).

When I finished school in the late 80s, office staff were paid about 60 a week, then it would go up to 100 after a few years.  I know pay and conditions were bad, but at least you had a job.   Even if you lived 10 or 15 miles out the country, you would be living at home and coming to work on buses until your mid to late 20s.  Even young single people who were working full time may not have a holiday abroad every year.  I remember not socialising at weekends for a few months before my holiday abroad.  Usually people would only have one night out a week.  

My father was a farmer and my mother worked full time in an office.  Even though I was an only child, we rarely went on hols, we had one bad car.  We didn't get a washing machine and house phone until the early 90s. (when I was in my early 20s)  

People would rarely go out for dinner.  It was frowned on as 'waste'.  I love the way there is more of a culture of eating out now (early birds etc) esp as I don't really drink.  I remember only starting to go out for dinner with friends in my late 20s, and only then once or twice a year.  I only bought Lancome make up in my late 20s.  

Even getting a coffee and scone in town was a big deal during the 80s.  You wouldn't call in for something every time you were in town.  As we were coming from the country we would often get hungry in town.  I might call into a cafe for coffee and scone as a treat, but my mother would not want to get anything (sure it is only another 2 hours til we get home).  Now I love the way it is more accepted to have a cappucino/latte in town, and I really enjoy it.

Clothes were always expensive in the late 80s compared to what people were earning.  I can remember earning 130 a week, and trousers in Dunnes costing 30.  Now trousers in Dunnes still cost 30 or 40 and I am earning more.

What is making the recession harder now is that people borrowed a lot of money, an now can't pay it back.  At least in the 80s people didn't use credit so much.


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## becky (13 Feb 2011)

buzybee said:


> I think that people in the 80s weren't used to having anything, whereas now people have got a higher standard of living and have to cut back again.
> 
> Also in the 80s, even though it was very hard to get a job, once you had a job you were unlikely to lose it, whereas now you could be let go at the drop of a hat (even with loads of education and experience).
> 
> ...



You sound like me, except my mother didn't work in an office.

My first wage was 60 a week and I was thrilled when I reached the 100 a week milestone.  When I was made permanent I was earning 10 pounds a week less but I said nothing because I was so relieved to be made permanent.

I thumbed to work until I organised a lift, bought a car at 29 and was the first in the gang to do so.

And you're right about Dunnes clothes, trousers were 30 pounds but they were a better trouser, we didn't have MacFashion then but 

Didn't have a credit card until I was 26 or so and the limit was 300 pounds or something.


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## liaconn (15 Feb 2011)

I agree with Buzzybee. People acquired a high standard of living during the boom years and so have further to fall. In the 80s most households had one car max., the same furniture and carpets did for years and years, children's clothes were passed around between cousins and friends, eating out was a rare treat and most people only drank wine if they were out somewhere or celebrating, instead of a regular thing at home. Also, people in the 80s hadn't run up huge debts and been living on credit for years.
I think we were better equipped to cope with a recession back then, but we've become softer and more comfortable over the past few years and had also become used to being regarded as a successful and wealthy country so are in shock to suddenly find ourselves back to recession, emigration and high unemployment. I think we really thought those days were gone and we had totally moved on, so there's a feeling of being back to square one. However, we have a much much better educated workforce, which is a huge positive, even if many are currently emigrating.


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## csirl (15 Feb 2011)

> Also, people in the 80s hadn't run up huge debts and been living on credit for years


 
I'm not so sure about this. I remember several school friends in the '80s who's families lost their homes due to repossession, or threat of repossession. I also remember "Today Tonight" specials about people having debts to money lenders - echos what you hear to day re: credit cards, but with potential violence added. 

I think the big difference between now and the '80s is that back then people had more time. Today people work longer and harder and usually need two incomes per household. While people back in the '80s didnt have as much stuff as we do today, they were much more time rich - more likely to volunteer in the community, more time to go to park/beach/walk or indulge in hobbies. More time to visit relatives - which seemed to be more common back then.


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## liaconn (15 Feb 2011)

I agree re the money lenders, but that tended to be a minority of people. I really don't remember most people having foreign holidays on credit, or doing up the house or stuff. Most people 'saved up' for things like that or borrowed manageable amounts from the credit union. I remember when I first started work there were still 'Christmas Clubs' so people could spread the cost out over the year.


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## horusd (15 Feb 2011)

> I think the big difference between now and the '80s is that back then people had more time.


 
Very true. We were generally cash poor, and time rich, then for a while it was the other way round, now it's the worst of both ! cash  & time poor!


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## z107 (15 Feb 2011)

It's too early into this recession/depression to start comparing it to the eighties.
Wait until the default, or until after the next couple of austerity budgets.

You ain't seen nothing yet!


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