# Congrats Kilkenny 4-in-a-row



## Teatime (6 Sep 2009)

Well done to KK hurlers today. Class team and amazing achievement. Good game of hurling too.

And well done to the Galway minors. Hopefully we can finally produce a senior All Ireland winning team from all the underage talent.


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## MrMan (7 Sep 2009)

Teatime said:


> Well done to KK hurlers today. Class team and amazing achievement. Good game of hurling too.
> 
> And well done to the Galway minors. Hopefully we can finally produce a senior All Ireland winning team from all the underage talent.



Can't help though the overwhelming feeling that Tipp were completely robbed of it.


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## Green (7 Sep 2009)

MrMan said:


> Can't help though the overwhelming feeling that Tipp were completely robbed of it.


 
The penalty wasn't a penalty and such decisions should be correct on such a big day.. In saying that Tipp should have converted their goal chances  and should have been out of sight at that point...


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## oldtimer (7 Sep 2009)

Tipperary were robbed. A terrible referee decision turned an excellent game around. Tipp were the better team and didn't deserve to lose.


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## MrMan (7 Sep 2009)

YOBR said:


> The penalty wasn't a penalty and such decisions should be correct on such a big day.. In saying that Tipp should have converted their goal chances  and should have been out of sight at that point...


Both sides fluffed two good goal chances, one side were given penalty that never was, it completely let Kilkenny off the hook because until then they were on the ropes.


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## VOR (7 Sep 2009)

The penalty was harsh. I thought it was a 21. All the same though really as we will never know whether Comerford would have scored the next goal anyway.

Tipp will have their day soon enough. They have a young team.
Kilkenny v Tipp again next year???


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## mathepac (7 Sep 2009)

YOBR said:


> ... In saying that Tipp should have converted their goal chances  and should have been out of sight at that point ...


Congratulations Kilkenny, it was well deserved.

As a Tipp supporter I rue the missed (and saved) chances in a second-half where possession seemed to be split 70/30 in Tipp's favour, but they failed to translate possession and territorial dominance into scores.

What a match! What men! With professionals in other codes suffering a deserved bad press from cheating and nancy-boy tactics it was a joy to see two amateur teams behave like true warriors and deliver a spectacle few other sports can even dream of and not a cheque-book, blood capsule, WAG, leather whip, Nazi uniform or PR parasite in view.


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## MrMan (7 Sep 2009)

mathepac said:


> Congratulations Kilkenny, it was well deserved.
> 
> As a Tipp supporter I rue the missed (and saved) chances in a second-half where possession seemed to be split 70/30 in Tipp's favour, but they failed to translate possession and territorial dominance into scores.
> 
> What a match! What men! With professionals in other codes suffering a deserved bad press from cheating and nancy-boy tactics it was a joy to see two amateur teams behave like true warriors and deliver a spectacle few other sports can even dream of and not a cheque-book, blood capsule, WAG, leather whip, Nazi uniform or PR parasite in view.



I agree with this, as much as i feel agrieved by the outcome it was the best match in any code that I can remember. Both teams deserve great credit for delivering such immense performances with the pressure that they were under.


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## Teatime (7 Sep 2009)

MrMan said:


> Both sides fluffed two good goal chances, one side were given penalty that never was, it completely let Kilkenny off the hook because until then they were on the ropes.


 
Not so sure about that. Kilkenny were 2 points behind against 14 men when the penalty decision was made. If the free was given instead, it would have been 1 point behind with around 10 mins lef. KK have always been very strong finishers - I know my own Galway were caught out in recent years by late KK goal 'bursts'. I think Tipp were fading and KK would have gone on to win if the correct decision was made -a 21 yd free. Comerford and Larkin showed their class in the last 10 minutes.


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## MrMan (7 Sep 2009)

Teatime said:


> Not so sure about that. Kilkenny were 2 points behind against 14 men when the penalty decision was made. If the free was given instead, it would have been 1 point behind with around 10 mins lef. KK have always been very strong finishers - I know my own Galway were caught out in recent years by late KK goal 'bursts'. I think Tipp were fading and KK would have gone on to win if the correct decision was made -a 21 yd free. Comerford and Larkin showed their class in the last 10 minutes.


 
Given the way the ref was letting things go the penalty go have just as easily been a free out for steps. The penalty was a huge blow. I don't think it's fair to say that Tipp were fading at all.


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## Teatime (10 Sep 2009)

MrMan said:


> Given the way the ref was letting things go the penalty go have just as easily been a free out for steps. The penalty was a huge blow. I don't think it's fair to say that Tipp were fading at all.


 
I actually thought Tipp would finish stronger as they are a fitter team but I think they ran their hearts out for 60 mins and they looked visibly tired in the last 5-10 mins while KK flourished. The 2 goals would not have helped but KK are masters at driving home an advantage. Larkin had time and space to fire over 2 lovely points in the last few mins whereas up to that point none of the KK forwards had any time at all. Tipp will feel they let this one slip but KK dont have 4-in-a-row from relying on the referee.


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## dodo (10 Sep 2009)

I feel it is a bit of the Man Utd's about this one,
The GAA ,the ref wanted the famous 4 in a row like utd for so many years getting penalty's when there was none, no conceding a penalty for nearly 3 years at home, that type of thing.

Kilkenny have to know in their hearts that they should not have won


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## Teatime (10 Sep 2009)

dodo said:


> Kilkenny have to know in their hearts that they should not have won


 
Yeah right - KK won by 5 points and Tipp have often left big games behind them in recent years (Galway, Limerick & Waterford) - Tipp have only won one game in Croke Park since 2001.

Having said that, I would put money on Tipp to win next year. Its often said about finals that you have to lose one to win one.


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## MrMan (10 Sep 2009)

Teatime said:


> I actually thought Tipp would finish stronger as they are a fitter team but I think they ran their hearts out for 60 mins and they looked visibly tired in the last 5-10 mins while KK flourished. The 2 goals would not have helped but KK are masters at driving home an advantage. Larkin had time and space to fire over 2 lovely points in the last few mins whereas up to that point none of the KK forwards had any time at all. Tipp will feel they let this one slip but KK dont have 4-in-a-row from relying on the referee.


Larkin had time and space because Tipp were out of time and going for goal. The penalty definitely changed the course of the game.


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## MrMan (10 Sep 2009)

dodo said:


> I feel it is a bit of the Man Utd's about this one,
> The GAA ,the ref wanted the famous 4 in a row like utd for so many years getting penalty's when there was none, no conceding a penalty for nearly 3 years at home, that type of thing.
> 
> Kilkenny have to know in their hearts that they should not have won



I don't think the ref did anything malicious, Kilkenny may have won regardless, but we will never know.


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## DerKaiser (10 Sep 2009)

dodo said:


> Kilkenny have to know in their hearts that they should not have won



I'm sure all the kilkenny players know in their hearts that at 2 points down with 10 minutes to go and having an extra man they simply could not have gone on to win had they only managed to get a 21 yard free rather than a penalty.

A 1 point margin would have simply been a bridge too far, after all Kilkenny Hurlers are known for their lack of belief, poor scoring record and an inability to win games from behind


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## Teatime (10 Sep 2009)

MrMan said:


> Larkin had time and space because Tipp were out of time and going for goal.


 
Re time and space - there is also the fact that a veteran Tipperary player lost the run of himself and assaulted arguably Kilkenny's best player. Bad form but Walsh got up straight away while Dunne got the straight red. Unforgivable.


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## MrMan (11 Sep 2009)

Teatime said:


> Re time and space - there is also the fact that a veteran Tipperary player lost the run of himself and assaulted arguably Kilkenny's best player. Bad form but Walsh got up straight away while Dunne got the straight red. Unforgivable.



What's that got to do with the penalty? Dunne was foolishly riled into making a dangerous swipe. Red card, clear cut and correct decision, it's the incorrect decisions that rankle. Kilkenny were no angels by the way.


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## Ceist Beag (11 Sep 2009)

I think a few of the Tipp fans on here could learn a lesson from Liam Sheedy in how to take defeat graciously. The simple fact is that even though they had most of the play they were beaten fair and square on the day by a team that is now widely considered the greatest ever hurling team. They only have themselves to blame for losing the game - to blame the referee for one decision is just petty and anyone doing so is only showing themselves to be less of a man than any of the real men who participated in that fantastic spectacle. I have no doubt Tipp will learn from this and come back stronger from it. Congratulations to Kilkenny, a truly magnificent bunch of hurlers (and management team!).


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## MrMan (11 Sep 2009)

Ceist Beag said:


> I think a few of the Tipp fans on here could learn a lesson from Liam Sheedy in how to take defeat graciously. The simple fact is that even though they had most of the play they were beaten fair and square on the day by a team that is now widely considered the greatest ever hurling team. They only have themselves to blame for losing the game - to blame the referee for one decision is just petty and anyone doing so is only showing themselves to be less of a man than any of the real men who participated in that fantastic spectacle. I have no doubt Tipp will learn from this and come back stronger from it. Congratulations to Kilkenny, a truly magnificent bunch of hurlers (and management team!).



So what your saying is to divorce ourselves from the emotional connection of a hectic match, ignore a blatant controversial incident that had a massive bearing on the outcome and be manly men?
 Kilkenny may have won regardless, it's just a shame that such an important decision at such a vital stage was cocked up so spectacularly.


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## Ceist Beag (11 Sep 2009)

MrMan said:


> So what your saying is to divorce ourselves from the emotional connection of a hectic match, ignore a blatant controversial incident that had a massive bearing on the outcome and be manly men?



In a word yes. Referees make mistakes, they're only human. To hold the referee accountable for the outcome of the game is petty - even moreso when this was such a magnificent match. As I said Tipp only have themselves (not the referee) to blame for not winning this match. This isn't a game of soccer we're talking about - the game doesn't swing on one score - there were 47 scores in this match - you're making out that one of these is responsible for Tipp losing! We'll never know what might have happened had Kilkenny only been given a free instead of a penalty but it's time to accept it and get over it and congratulate the victors on a truly magnificent achievement.


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## MrMan (11 Sep 2009)

Ceist Beag said:


> In a word yes. Referees make mistakes, they're only human. To hold the referee accountable for the outcome of the game is petty - even moreso when this was such a magnificent match. As I said Tipp only have themselves (not the referee) to blame for not winning this match. This isn't a game of soccer we're talking about - the game doesn't swing on one score - there were 47 scores in this match - you're making out that one of these is responsible for Tipp losing! We'll never know what might have happened had Kilkenny only been given a free instead of a penalty but it's time to accept it and get over it and congratulate the victors on a truly magnificent achievement.


He was not accountable for the outcome he was accountable for a basic mistake. Players spend the whole year gearing themselves towards the pinnacle of their careers, human error is to be expected but such a basic error is very hard to take.
Tipp and Kilkenny played a great game and they both missed their share of goal opportunities. I have congratulated Kilkenny on winning a great match already, and my point is that the outcome could have been different had the correct and fair decision been made. 
I'm also well over it at this stage, I just think this point of be a man and get over it is nonsense. Imagine the outcry if Kilkenny were denied a 4 in a row through a penalty decision going against them.
They got the call and the got the cup, I don't think they will dwell on others misfortunes.


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## DerKaiser (12 Sep 2009)

MrMan said:


> my point is that the outcome could have been different had the correct and fair decision been made



Idle speculation MrMan, if it was a two point win you might have something to discuss.

Tipp were one point down after the penalty, if they were good enough to beat Kilkenny they could have won from there.  

That is 3 wins out of 3 for KK against Tipp this year.  Tipp are getting closer but didn't have enough to get over the finish line in the end


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## MrMan (12 Sep 2009)

DerKaiser said:


> Idle speculation MrMan, if it was a two point win you might have something to discuss.
> 
> Tipp were one point down after the penalty, if they were good enough to beat Kilkenny they could have won from there.
> 
> That is 3 wins out of 3 for KK against Tipp this year.  Tipp are getting closer but didn't have enough to get over the finish line in the end



just thought it was worth consideration. The penalty handed the initiative back to Kilkenny, the last couple of points were down to Tipp having to alter their game to go for goal and therefore allowing kilkenny the extra room to pick off the points. It is speculation, I would prefer if there was no need for it and we saw a fitting end to the game.


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## mathepac (13 Sep 2009)

MrMan said:


> just thought it was worth consideration. ...


IMHO, attempting to apportion blame to any  single event or incident for the outcome last Sunday demeans hurling, the game  (no prisoners taken, no whingers), the players, Tipperary's contribution and Kilkenny's achievement.

There's a number of possible scenarios that could have contributed to a different outcome but as an American colleague used to say 'coulda, shoulda, woulda - but didn't'.

Take your pick, for example, from this list of things I've heard discussed that lost the match for Tipp - 


If Tommy Dunne, the 'windiest' of the Tipp panel, hadn't been brought on
If Tommy Dunne hadn't been sent off (deservedly IMHO)
If P. J. Ryan hadn't had a man of the match performance
If more Tipp frees had been converted


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## MrMan (14 Sep 2009)

mathepac said:


> IMHO, attempting to apportion blame to any single event or incident for the outcome last Sunday demeans hurling, the game (no prisoners taken, no whingers), the players, Tipperary's contribution and Kilkenny's achievement.
> 
> There's a number of possible scenarios that could have contributed to a different outcome but as an American colleague used to say 'coulda, shoulda, woulda - but didn't'.
> 
> ...


 
Picking out an incident that had huge significance isn't quite the same as saying that kilkenny deserved to win or not. Do you not think it was a major talking point? This crack about manly men taking their beating is great for pub talk but when it comes down to it why bother have any analysis of the games on any scale if we can't even discuss the importance to both teams of such a decision?
I presume you mean Benny Dunne and if he had not of been sent of who knows it could have benefited either team, but a penalty decision offers a direct 3point scoring chance, it has a definite influence is all I'm saying.

I started talking about my feeling that Tipp were hard done by, I don't see the problem with that, it's an opinion.


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## mathepac (14 Sep 2009)

MrMan said:


> ... I presume you mean Benny Dunne ...


My bad, yes.


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