# "Upgrade" to Goodbody Online



## Gulliver (23 Jul 2007)

I have been a Goodbody Online customer for years.  Shares are registered as Crest Personal Membership, and I have all of the benefits of full shareholding - I get dividends from the companies, I get annual reports and other corporate literature, I attend some AGMs.

Goodbodys have informed me that they will now "upgrade" the service.

After the "upgrade"

Shares will be held in the name of a Goodbody Nominee Account
Dividends will be paid into Goodbody Online account, rather than into your bank account
You will not receive dividend counterfoils from companies - instead, you will recieve an annual consolidated tax voucher
You will be notified by Goodbody "of any elective Corporate Actions that could impact your underlying holding" (I interpret this as permitting Goodbody to select which notifications I will receive)
Company reports will only be available on request to Goodbody.
The other option offered is to discontinue your Goodbody Online Sharedealing.  To avail of this, you must inform Goodbody within 40 days.

I find it difficult to contain my annoyance at receiving such a notification, and will so respond to Goodbody.  This is no upgrade - it is a severe downgrade.  It places me at a further remove from my investments, and I can find no positives in it.  

I will be terminating my account.  But this is not an easy process.  It involves terminating my current crest membership.

Now, can you advise me where to go.  I want a broker who:-

offers a good online service
registers shares with crest
Reasonable pricing


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## noel 2006 (23 Jul 2007)

I agree that is a downgrade.  I have an online nominee account with another broker and do not receive annual or other reports from the companies.


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## money man (23 Jul 2007)

I only got the account opened a few months ago and now i will have to start the search all over again. i think that there is a great opportunity for a company to meet the needs as described by the op. I think its disgraceful. I will be closing my account too but am annoyed that they couldnt have told me this when i was opening it a short time ago ...i wouldnt have bothered and would have gone somewhere else....


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## MugsGame (23 Jul 2007)

Agree. I will be closing my account, given the major "worst case" downside of nominee accounts (cf Morroghs.). This is a cost cutting move by AIB. Can't understand any other motivation. You don't announce an "upgrade" with no positive features (apart from the very limited attraction of a "single tax voucher".).


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## Gulliver (24 Jul 2007)

Fully agree with all of the posters above.  Nominee account holders are second-class citizens among the community of shareholders.

Have been looking at Sharewatch as the alternative.  Would prefer an Irish broker - Sharewatch has a Cork office, but the real operations there are Glasgow based.

What's the experience of Sharewatch Online?  Would like to hear from account-holders there.

Looked at Davys, but they appear to only offer nominee arrangements also.

Any others offering a good online service for Irish shares, with Crest registration?


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## messyleo (24 Jul 2007)

i had been planing to join goodbodys just this week, so thanks for the heads up guys. it saved me signing up! the big plus for me was the crest account which none of the others seem to really offer. there are a few threads on sharewatch with mixed feedback. how they can call this an 'upgrade' is beyond me though.


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## gonk (24 Jul 2007)

gravitygirl said:


> there are a few threads on sharewatch with mixed feedback.


 
I've had an account with them for a year and before that sold some certificated shares through them using their fixed fee small transaction service. 

Service so far has been fine and their charges are among the lowest in the marketplace. I don't see why their Scottish base is any disadvantage, unless perhaps one is seeking investment advice specific to the Irish market.


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## hotbot (24 Jul 2007)

Any others offering a good online service for Irish shares, with Crest registration?[/quote]

I think Bloxhams offer a personal crest A/c and paper certs but their not cheap.


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## yob (24 Jul 2007)

i joined sharewatch just over a year ago its so easy to deal with them,they hold my shrares on crest acc' they charge 0.3% per transaction,if you have money on account you can trade automaticly,if not you phone your trade on a low call number,@0.4% and pay within 10 days,i'd recommend them


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## ShaneMc (24 Jul 2007)

There seems to be very few companies in Ireland offering personal crest membership. A pity, I think NIB's offering is quite impressive, you can trade in a much wider range of markets for a very low fee. They are currently waiving their annual fee on the accounts.


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## messyleo (24 Jul 2007)

I had considered NIB but apparantly you need to provide a lot of financial info/letter from employer etc. Hence the reason I had decided on Goodbody


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## davematt00 (24 Jul 2007)

I too have a goodbody online account that i will be closing. 
So to confirm, Davy  operate a nominee acount, but NIB and Sharewatch operate full CREST accounts?


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## messyleo (24 Jul 2007)

i think NIB only offer nominee accounts, but sharewatch offer CREST


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## Gulliver (25 Jul 2007)

I can confirm that I called NIB this morning, and they only offer "custody accounts" which are nominee accounts in all but name.  So I think Sharewatch is the only one offering online and personal crest registration.


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## Gulliver (25 Jul 2007)

I looked at the Goodbody Online website this morning.  The site is still offering Personal Crest Membership, and lauding the benefits, even though it has written to its clients withdrawing the service.

Have a look at [broken link removed] 

Perhaps it's about time that I left them.  If they cannot properly manage the withdrawal of a service..........


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## JR Rizzo (27 Jul 2007)

MugsGame said:


> Agree. I will be closing my account, given the major "worst case" downside of nominee accounts (cf Morroghs.). This is a cost cutting move by AIB. Can't understand any other motivation. You don't announce an "upgrade" with no positive features (apart from the very limited attraction of a "single tax voucher".).


 
we all agree the term "upgrade" is misleading,
and I personally feel some action should be taken against Goodbody
over this "false advertising"

From reading other posts the main risk with Nominee accounts is that
customer must place alot of *trust *in their broker,
in this case Goodbody which if I am not mistaken is owned by AIB
the *largest Irish public company*

I feel the level of risk here is reduced because the broker is a *blue chip company*, although this this misleading "upgrade" letter does not build trust, rather damages!

The best thing for Goodbody to do know RIGHT NOW is to send out another more detailed letter on the change, reasons and future scenarios from this so called "upgrade" certainly longer than 2 pages!


Another point, they are allowing withdrawal of all stocks to certificate form *FOR FREE*, and I presume account closeure will be free also.

I think best option for customers is too withdraw all stocks to certificate form, and close their account, then

- when waiting *open another brokerage account *meeting your requirements

- a risk of this approach is that you cant sell during the transition period
to negate this sell any of these holdings before close existing goodbody account, but pay sale commision (and purchase commision again if you buy with new broker)
as well as lose any possible capital gains in between (but gain if share drops...)

- you recieve all your holdings in certificate form, now keep any you want to hold long-term in certificate form, and transfer any you may trade soon
into your new brokerage

- if you dont find / open a new brokerage account, just open a new goodbody on-line account with this "nominee upgrade" and transfer in 
any certs you feel you might want to trade soon like step above,
and keep you long-term holds in cert form

*benefits*
- flexibility of broker (lodge your certs to whoever whenever)
- free withdrawal to cert form

*risks*
- cant trade during certificate withdrawal transition period
- must keep any certificates in safe holding

have I missed anything?

JR.


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## sidneycooper (27 Jul 2007)

I was wondering what happen if Goodbody went under? What would happen my shares?

Thanks


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## z109 (27 Jul 2007)

If the shares are in a nominee account, does this mean the count as assets of the company holding the account rather than as assets of the individual holding them? I.e. will Davys now 'own' the nominee shares?


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## Gulliver (29 Jul 2007)

The main issue here is not one of risk.  The issues are ones of status and identity, ownership, transparency, and the future direction of the concept of shareholding.

I am an individual.  I have a name, an address, an identity.  I am not just a faceless element in a crowd.  I am not just an account holder in Goodbodys.  I am a shareholder

I own shares.  I have a right to have that ownership registered in my name.  Originally, that right was demonstrated by the issue of share certificates.  In line with modern trends, the powers-that-be have created the facility for me to hold shares electronically in my own name,- as an alternative to certificates - and I laud them for that.  But the concept of electronic holding is only halfway effective if I cannot buy and sell them electronically.

Holding shares through a nominee company is a loss of one's identity as a shareholder.  One is reduced to the status of merely a pawn in the Goodbody chess game.

Goodbodys have an online dealing facility.  It is only barely adequate.  It has been in need of upgrade for many years.  The version now being offered is certainly unsatisfactory in terms of reducing shareholder status.  But worse than that, they are offering a service which is inadequately described.  Where is the detail of the offering?  How will it be accessed?  What will it deliver?

The broader question is:-  Why has no Irish stockbroker apart from Goodbody offered a good online service with Crest? My suspicion is that they have little interest in the personal shareholder - they have a structure (and a cost base) which is geared to the very large participants in the market.

As they lead their customers further down the nominee path, Crest itself will become difficult to maintain.

Reluctantly, and regreetbly, I have indicated to Goodbody that I am closing with them, but on the positive side, I have decided to move to Sharewatch, and I look forward to a much better online service as well as cheaper rates.

Sidneycooper - Although Goodbody is supported by AIB, I would prefer to have actual shareholding than nominee shareholding if anything went wrong

Yoganmahew - Nominee shareholdings are held in a custodial capacity by the broker.  They are not assets of the brokerage.


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## Gautama (30 Jul 2007)

sidneycooper said:


> I was wondering what happen if Goodbody went under?


 


Gulliver said:


> The main issue here is not one of risk.


 
Goodbody going under would be a risk. Unlikely, but a risk all-the-same. 

The chances of AIB going bust would be as unlikely as Enron/Barings going under. The chance of embezzlement in Goodbody would be the same as it happening to Morroghs.

If I recall correctly, those that lost out on the Morrogh debacle were nominee account shareholders. The son-in-law of the owner went trading shares in the nominee account, and repeatedly lost money, until he was caught, and the outcome was an overall loss.
Not only that, but he did the same thing 10 years earlier, got caught by the boss, the boss told him not to do it again, and gave him his job back!

This would be my biggest fear. With the shares in my name, they are mine. In a nominee account, they are not in my name and the next Morrogh could happen.

You can probably tell that I too regard this change as a downgrade, and I plan on moving.
It's looking like Sharewatch for me, because of the CREST accounts.

The NIB account sounds good but it's not crest. I first heard about it on Today FM's Business Show.

Choose Business Show Part 2 Sunday: 22/7/2007

If you trade alot the access to Reuter's reports may be of use.
I called into the NIB branch in Donnybrook but the guy behind the counter got a bit flustered by my request. He seemed like a sound bloke so I didn't press him.

A reader of the Irish Times wrote a letter to the business section on 29 June regarding share certs. I probably shouldn't paste this in, so moderator please remove this bit if it's not kosher to post it:

The failure of Ryanair to issue new share certificates following the share split is a fiasco. The longer the matter is left unattended the greater the confusion and the more difficult it will be to put matters right. 
Why should shareholders wishing to sell their Ryanair shares have to write a letter to their brokers explaining that in reality they own twice the number of shares, as stated on the certificate? 
Last week, I was listening to a business programme on our national airwaves and a question came in from a listener as to why the Ryanair share price had halved in the past year. The expert denied that the price had halved - technically he was correct but in another way he was uninformed. An example of the growing confusion? 
The reason why many of us do not want to move away from old-fashioned share certificates is that when we place our shares in the nominee names of our brokers they charge us fees for the service (for whose benefit is the service provided? - they should be paying us!), there are delays in receiving our dividends, we are not sent the annual or interim reports or notices of agms and egms, and we miss the opportunity to attend the meetings. Takeover offers and other corporate actions are not sent to us. So I, for one, have reverted to having all my shareholdings in my own name with original share certificates. 
Mr ? ???, e-mail 
You respond to the recent Q&A where I suggested that a Ryanair shareholder include a letter to their broker reminding them of the fact that their "pre-split certificate" would no longer be accurate in the number of shares it states the investor holds. 
You're right. It should not be necessary and, for what it's worth, I am sure the broker - checking with the share registrar - would be quick to ensure that the correct number of shares were traded. I was merely suggesting a "belt and braces" approach - just to be sure. There is, of course, no requirement for you to write a covering note to your broker. You are paying them commission and that should certainly cover the competent execution of the transaction . . . but what do you do if it goes wrong and you have no photocopy of the certificate? 
I can't answer for conversations in other forums but it would certainly have been more helpful to point out, as we did in the paper in response to a similar query, that the price might appear to have halved because of the two-for-one share split that would effectively halve the value of each unit. 
Such confusion only reinforces my belief that it never does any harm in cases like Ryanair at the moment to include the covering note suggested. 
In any case, if the Irish Stock Exchange had its way, and I'm sure it will, share certificates will very shortly be consigned to museums. The exchange is proposing to move to a fully electronic means of holding shares. 
However, this does not necessarily mean you are deprived of all information and control over companies in which you have invested. 
While it is certainly true that electronic holdings in nominee accounts are lumped together, with brokers receiving all corporate information and having control over decision-making, the same is not true of Crest accounts. 
These are also electronic accounts - and yes, you will pay the broker to manage them - but the investor receives all communications from the company in which they hold the shares and makes all the voting decisions on agm and egm motions. The other advantage is that trading costs will be reduced. 

I wonder if there's any chance that Goodbody would reverse their decision?


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## CupofTea (6 Aug 2007)

Stocktrade in Edinburgh also has good commission rates. Check them out here...  

Crest supply a  - I.e. those stock brokers that provide Crest personal accounts as an alternative to using nominee accounts. Many of the non Irish firms accept customers from the EEA which would suit Irish residents.


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## Gulliver (7 Aug 2007)

An other thing that amazes me about the Goodbody action is that they have assumed the right to transfer the ownership of my shares (to their nominee co) without my signature.  A failure to respond to the letter is considered as authorisation.

Now, in my book, I gave Goodbodys the right to transfer my shares without signature in order to facilitate online trading, but they appear to want to use that right for a non-trading purpose.  If they can use such rights in this way, is it not possible that they could use the right to do other things.  Many of the posters above have reminded us of the Morrough case in this connection.


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## CupofTea (7 Aug 2007)

Maybe the best approach is to take your business to a companY that appreciates it. If everyone does that then maybe we'll all get slightly better customer service. It'll be much better for the blood pressure in the long run.


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## Gautama (7 Aug 2007)

CupofTea said:


> Maybe the best approach is to take your business to a companY that appreciates it. If everyone does that then maybe we'll all get slightly better customer service. It'll be much better for the blood pressure in the long run.


 
Very true.  I emailed Fexco with two simple questions:
Do they have an online sharedealing service?
If so, is it CREST?

I got a brief response telling me check out [broken link removed].

Why didn't he just e-mail "I'm too lazy to answer your question, I'll give you the URL of our website (which you have probably used to find our e-mail in the first place).  PS I don't appreciate your business".


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## Gulliver (14 Aug 2007)

Further update on the above:-

Contacted the Financial Regulator - they suggest that I should contact the Irish Stock Exchange, and even offered to forward it on my behalf (I agreed).  However, I note that the Red Book issued by the Financial Regulator implies that they regulate stockbrokers - with certain exceptions, and this is not one of them.

The Stock Exchange replied "the Exchange no longer has remit to investigate complaints by retail clients, I believe the correct person to forward this to is the Financial Services Ombudsman."   They did say that they would "be contacting Goodbody to discuss this from a conduct of business viewpoint".  Their subsequent reply, after discussion with Goodbody was that they "have discussed with Goodbody the matters raised and am satisfied that sufficient information was provided to you.". They suggested that I contact the Financial Services Ombudsman.

My understanding of the role of any ombudsman is that he intervenes on behalf of a citizen seeking redress for greviances and/or loss.  I have suffered no such loss, and so I believe that the issue is not appropriate for the Financial Ombudsman.

I believe that there is not enough soap in the country to accomodate the level of washing of hands by people who should be attempting to achieve better standards of business conduct in this country.

As foreshadowed in previous postings, I have now opened an online stockbroking account outside this jurisdiction, and will keep you posted.


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## vipera1 (2 Nov 2007)

Hi,

Just wondering if anybody is still using "aib online share dealing". I'm not very happy with the recent changes (to nominee accounts).  First, all my post has been stopped, including confirmation of my recent stock purchases. This really cheeses me off !!. Second, I dont know how dividends will now be treated ( credited to account, cash or scrip dividends). Third, my share records were removed from Computershare's website. 
Has anybody recently transferred to another broker ?. I'm sure there are quite a few !!. And if so, what do you think of their service (and charges) so far ?. 
If I transfer at this stage, is it easy to move, and will I be charged by AIB/ Goodbody ?.


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## CupofTea (2 Nov 2007)

Sharewatch has Crest personal accounts and low charges so if you transfer to them you'll see your shares in Computershare once again.


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## IFT (3 Nov 2007)

edit..


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## c7144 (15 Nov 2007)

I am new but insterested in investing stock now.  Can anyone explain to me what is CREST?  Why it is important?


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