# Date of birth question on job application form



## olivia (8 Feb 2008)

I am just completing a job applcation form which asks me for my DOB.  Is this illegal?  What should I do assuming I would like to get the job?


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## TDON (8 Feb 2008)

*Re: Date of birth question on job applcation form*

I don't believe it's illegal. You are asked for your DOB on everything now.

I assume it is Ageism you are worried about, because I cannot at the moment, think of any other scenario, why you are afraid to give it to them. So, if there is another reason why you don't want to give it to them, can you elaborate please?


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## ClubMan (8 Feb 2008)

Why do you think that this might be illegal!? 

_Post crossed with TDON's._


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## MsGinger (8 Feb 2008)

I can understand the OP's concern.  I have worked in places in the past, where CV's have been discarded because of a person's age.  I have also worked in places where women of a certain age would not be considered due to the fact that they might be thinking of having children.  These people haven't even reached interview stage.

I believe that it's a question you are not allowed to ask in interview as long as it has no bearing on the job, so why should it be any different in application forms?


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## olivia (8 Feb 2008)

I belive it may be illegal as it contravenes employment equality legislation - it is the same as asking nationality.


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## ClubMan (8 Feb 2008)

olivia said:


> I belive it may be illegal as it contravenes employment equality legislation - it is the same as asking nationality.


Any chance you could cite/link to some info supporting this claim? I can't see anything obvious here:

www.citizensinformation.ie
[broken link removed]
www.equality.ie

Discrimination based on age, nationality etc. is one thing. Asking questions about these is another as far as I know. 

Also at least some age discrimination *is *allowed...


> *Exclusions from the general prohibition of discrimination on age grounds*
> 
> An employer may:
> 
> ...


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## beautfan (8 Feb 2008)

I suppose he's referring to the Employment Equality Act.  It is illegal if it can be proved that an employer is using it for shortlisting purposes for example.  If a claim is made by an individual the employer must prove that discrimination did not occur.

There is nothing in the legislation to say that it cannot be asked on an application form but it is not considered 'best practice'.


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## ClubMan (8 Feb 2008)

beautfan said:


> I suppose he's referring to the Employment Equality Act.  It is illegal if it can be proved that an employer is using it for shortlisting purposes for example.  If a claim is made by an individual the employer must prove that discrimination did not occur.


How does one prove a negative!!?!?


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## Staples (8 Feb 2008)

beautfan said:


> I suppose he's referring to the Employment Equality Act. It is illegal if it can be proved that an employer is using it for shortlisting purposes for example. If a claim is made by an individual the employer must prove that discrimination did not occur.


 
I agree.  The employer is leaving him/herself a bit exposed here.

If a person didn't get a job, they could argue that it was on age grounds.  While this might seem spurious, similar cases have been taken successfully in the past.

If the age of an applicant isn't an issue, then it shouldn't be sought.  If it is an issue, it's reasonable to ask why.


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## NiallP (8 Feb 2008)

It is not illegal to ask for someone's DOB on an application form - it is illegal to discriminate against them on the basis of the information provided.

In certain circumstances it may be absolutely necessary to establish someone's age - for example to ensure that there is no contravention of the protection of Young Persons (Employment) Act 1996.

In general, it would not conform with best practice for the DOB to be requested upon application. Bar the situation outlined above, it is difficult to justify - and, particularly, it would be difficult for an employer to establish that it was required information in the context of defending an age discrimination claim.

Thus, whilst it is not illegal, it is also not advisable. 

Olivia, I would recommend that you fill it in honestly. If you feel there is any suggestion that you subsequently miss out on the job due to your age, you might consider bringing an age discrimination claim under the Employment Equality Acts- for which you may be awarded a maximum of 12,700Euro (as you are not an employee).


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## purpeller (8 Feb 2008)

On the civil service application forms, you are asked all sorts of questions that could be construed as discriminatory if you were looking for it (and did not get an interview).  Age, race, ethnicity, even sexuality!


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## snuffle (8 Feb 2008)

Was wondering this myself recently as an application form asked you for your age. I know it's easy enough to infer roughly what age you are (from dates of exams, length of time working, etc) but to blatently ask for your age I thought a bit odd personally. Also most application forms I've ever seen always tend to ask your nationality also.


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## beautfan (8 Feb 2008)

Nationally can be asked as you are obliged to source EEA candiates before non-EEA.

Clubman - I don't understand your question..


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## ClubMan (8 Feb 2008)

ClubMan said:


> How does one prove a negative!!?!?





beautfan said:


> Clubman - I don't understand your question..


OK - the answer is that you can't.


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## ang1170 (8 Feb 2008)

Staples said:


> I agree. The employer is leaving him/herself a bit exposed here.
> 
> If a person didn't get a job, they could argue that it was on age grounds. While this might seem spurious, similar cases have been taken successfully in the past..


 
By that logic, if they asked whether you're male or female, they'd be leaving themselves open......


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## RainyDay (9 Feb 2008)

olivia said:


> I am just completing a job applcation form which asks me for my DOB.  Is this illegal?



I don't have anything to add to the answers already given, particularly the good answer from Niall P



olivia said:


> What should I do assuming I would like to get the job?



You have two options. The 'keep your head down' option would suggest that you fill in the DOB and say nowt.

However, that's not the only option. Certain organisations and/or individuals may genuinely appreciate getting advice which points out their potential exposure. It could well be that the only reason for having the DOB on the form is 'because we've always done it that way'. You could try politely summarising the advice given on the thread in a cover letter with your application. It's a high-risk option, but depending on the corporate culture and the individual concerned, it just might work. It will certainly ensure that your application stands out from the crowd.

Do you believe that age discrimination is a real possibility in this case?


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## Staples (10 Feb 2008)

ang1170 said:


> By that logic, if they asked whether you're male or female, they'd be leaving themselves open......


 

Yes, wide open. There are very few jobs that are gender specific so unless you're advertising one, there's no reason to ask.

I heard of a case where an obviously pregnant woman presented for interview.  The interviewer, whom she knew, congratulated her.  The woman didn't get the job but subsequently took a successful equality case on the grounds that as her pregnancy was commented on at the interview, she was effectively discriminated against on grounds of gender.


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## John Rambo (10 Feb 2008)

Staples said:


> Yes, wide open. There are very few jobs that are gender specific so unless you're advertising one, there's no reason to ask.
> 
> I heard of a case where an obviously pregnant woman presented for interview.  The interviewer, whom she knew, congratulated her.  The woman didn't get the job but subsequently took a successful equality case on the grounds that as her pregnancy was commented on at the interview, she was effectively discriminated against on grounds of gender.


 
That sounds like a serious case of the world gone mad...two people present for a job. One will be available to do the job, the other will not as she'll be on maternity leave but a potential employer can't make a decision based on these facts?


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## Staples (11 Feb 2008)

The point is that the pregnancy was commented upon at the interview and so became part of the process through which the selection was made.  It introduced the possibility of bias.  

Had the pregnancy not been referred to, it would have been difficult to contend that it in any way had an impact on the interviewer's ultimate decision.


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## csirl (11 Feb 2008)

I done some interviewing in my time. I dont think its illegal to ask DOB on forms. However, frequently the photocopies of CV/forms given to those conducting the interviews to have the DOB blacked out so as to guard against ageism claims. I'm not sure how effective this is though, as age can usually be determined by looking at education & work history e.g. person probably did leaving cert between ages of 17 & 19.


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## homeowner (11 Feb 2008)

Op - leave it blank on the form.  You are not obliged to answer every question. Its a job interview not an interrogation.  They can ask you if they really want to know.


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## PMCK (11 Feb 2008)

Wheather it's illegal or not you will have to fill it in if you want the job!


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## taponavillus (23 Feb 2008)

they want to check out if you have any prior convictions and the garda computer(which i assume will be used illegally) likes to have a dob


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## stir crazy (23 Feb 2008)

what happens if you lie about your age ? especially if they are not entitled to ask for it anyway ????


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## sandrat (23 Feb 2008)

John Rambo said:


> That sounds like a serious case of the world gone mad...two people present for a job. One will be available to do the job, the other will not as she'll be on maternity leave but a potential employer can't make a decision based on these facts?


 
you can't discriminate because someone is pregnant. I was recently offered a job from a panel I have been on for a while. Job is due to start in April and I am due to start maternity leave in April. I turned the job down but only because I have gotten a promotion since being placed on that panel. If I was to accept the job they would have had to hire me for a week and then I would have gone on (fully paid) maternity leave.


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## stir crazy (24 Feb 2008)

sandrat said:


> you can't discriminate because someone is pregnant. I was recently offered a job from a panel I have been on for a while. Job is due to start in April and I am due to start maternity leave in April. I turned the job down but only because I have gotten a promotion since being placed on that panel. If I was to accept the job they would have had to hire me for a week and then I would have gone on (fully paid) maternity leave.



Was it a civil service job subsidised by the taxpayers ? I can see how a pregnant woman can impose extra burdens on a business which it may not be able to afford. What happens then if it is a private business operating in the unforgiving real world ? Isn't the bottom line of profit versus losses  a justification enough for choosing an employee especially for a small business which cant afford to pay people for nothing ?


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## sandrat (24 Feb 2008)

Nope not a civil service job a public service job. Did you know that civil service staff actually pay taxes too as do public service staff? we also pay the fullest amount of PRSI. Small business and private businesses don't have to pay people maternity leave and many don't. I was the most qualified person for the job and therefore of course I was offered it. In the long run maternity leave doesnt last forever and at the end of the day the employer still ends up with the best employee at the end of it all.

You wouldnt expect a company not to hire a man whose wife was pregnant even though he will be entitled to unpaid parental leave as a result which means a replacement might have to be hired to replace him. If companies don't pay maternity leave they have to hire replacements for the women then there is little difference. Both people are entitled to their full annual leave entitlement despite the need for a replacement. Fact is that many employers hold it against female employees for getting pregnant. A friend of mine was asked if she was aware that they would have to hire a replacement when she was on her baby holiday and that they would have to pay this person for holidays as well as give her holidays. They would have to do the same for a man taking parental leave. Personally in my job I have had my maternity leave referred to as my "career break" and have been denied training this year due to the fact that I'm going on this career break. Men dont get the the same level of hassle about the whole thing.


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## John Rambo (24 Feb 2008)

sandrat said:


> Men dont get the the same level of hassle about the whole thing.


 
Because parental leave/paternity leave for men is virtually non-existent in this country. I can understand Stir Crazy's point...regardless of the legalities of it pregnant employees can be a hassle for SME's. For the owner manager of such a company it must be common not to give the job to the pregnant woman purely on the basis that she's pregnant, and then dress it up as something else. It may not be right, but it's understandable. Without meaning to offend anyone, how shall I put this...the female reproductive system does cause quite a bit of grief in the workplace. From maternity leave to random days off for "female problems", I'm not at all saying it's right or wrong but it is a cost/problem for employers.


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## sandrat (24 Feb 2008)

John Rambo said:


> Because parental leave/paternity leave for men is virtually non-existent in this country.


men are entitled to 14 weeks parental leave in all employment in Ireland per child. This is unpaid leave but it is still an entitlement. How is it any different to unpaid maternity leave which most women get from SMEs? My husband gets 5 days paid paternity leave from his employer and he is not a public sector employee. In fact I think public sector employees only get 3 days.By your logic any women of childbearing age shouldnt get a job because they might need to go on maternity leave at some stage in their working lives.And women are not entitled to time off for female problems. What a stupid thing to say. There are such things as mens problems too you know.


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## budapest (24 Feb 2008)

Staples said:


> I heard of a case where an obviously pregnant woman presented for interview. The interviewer, whom she knew, congratulated her. The woman didn't get the job but subsequently took a successful equality case on the grounds that as her pregnancy was commented on at the interview, she was effectively discriminated against on grounds of gender.



I understand that this is the law, but as the interviewer was somebody who knew her, is this really so surprising?  Surely she was obviously pregnant if the interviewer said something about it.  She really didn't make a good ethical decision here, regardless of the legality of the situation.


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## ClubMan (24 Feb 2008)

sandrat said:


> How is it any different to unpaid maternity leave which most women get from SMEs?


It's different because many (most?) women in that situation would qualify for _Maternity Benefit_.


> By your logic any women of childbearing age shouldnt get a job because they might need to go on maternity leave at some stage in their working lives.And women are not entitled to time off for female problems. What a stupid thing to say. There are such things as mens problems too you know.


Personally I think that you are warping _JR's_ logic there but maybe he would agree with you in spite of what I think?


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## John Rambo (25 Feb 2008)

sandrat said:


> men are entitled to 14 weeks parental leave in all employment in Ireland per child. This is unpaid leave but it is still an entitlement. How is it any different to unpaid maternity leave which most women get from SMEs? My husband gets 5 days paid paternity leave from his employer and he is not a public sector employee. In fact I think public sector employees only get 3 days.By your logic any women of childbearing age shouldnt get a job because they might need to go on maternity leave at some stage in their working lives.And women are not entitled to time off for female problems. What a stupid thing to say. There are such things as mens problems too you know.


 
In my opinion the 3 days paternity leave is totally inadequate but that's a different argument. Of course I don't agree with your last assertion...that is not what I was saying. I do not believe it was a stupid thing to say either. Without discussing the rights or wrongs it's fair to say that maternity leave can be a serious burden for SME's and it would be human nature for an owner manager to consider it when faced with a pregnant woman applying for a job, despite that being illegal. My own view is that maternity/paternity leave are to the benefit of society and should therefore be completely subsidised by the State with reasonable period for both fathers and mothers. As for your comment on "womens problems" again I think you're being unrealistic and unfair. I'm not getting into the rights or wrongs, all I will say is that in my experience "womens problems" have accounted for a lot of absences and that is a cost SME's are having to deal with also. Take today for example...if any of the guys I know are out sick most peoples response is "ah sure they're still a mess after the rugby". A woman on the other hand only has to mention certain issues and nobody bats an eyelid. Let me restate that discrimination of any kind is totally wrong. However for some SME's who are struggling to stay afloat some laws and deals with unions are so onerous they may put people out of business.


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