# EV Vs ICE Issues: Range



## Baby boomer (25 Mar 2022)

I appreciate the honest account from @Slim that pulls no punches.   All too often one gets the evangelical pitch from EV owners about how great it is, etc etc. 
I have to say though that that trip back from the airport sounds like an absolute nightmare.  It's the sort of thing that takes the joy and pleasure out of motoring and turns it into a chore.  My ten year old diesel can reach any point on this island and back, twice, without refuelling.  Range anxiety will stop being a thing only when you can stop having to *plan* your journey.   Admittedly, EV technology improves year by year, but until range hits a reliable, say, 500km with plentiful fast recharging points, and price falls in line with ICE equivalent sized and specced models, I'm not buying.  I would also be concerned at the thought of sinking a premium price into a fast evolving technology that will probably have better and cheaper offerings in a matter of a few years. 

EVs are undoubtedly the way of the future. The advantages are truly enormous in terms of engineering simplicity and variable running cost.  But price, arghhh!  And range!   Right now, for me, and I'm sure many others, they just don't cut the mustard.  I might consider a cheap secondhand model as a second family car, but we need one workhorse that does everything, all the time, without having to think about it.


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## Blackrock1 (25 Mar 2022)

Baby boomer said:


> I appreciate the honest account from @Slim that pulls no punches.   All too often one gets the evangelical pitch from EV owners about how great it is, etc etc.
> I have to say though that that trip back from the airport sounds like an absolute nightmare.  It's the sort of thing that takes the joy and pleasure out of motoring and turns it into a chore.  My ten year old diesel can reach any point on this island and back, twice, without refuelling.  Range anxiety will stop being a thing only when you can stop having to *plan* your journey.   Admittedly, EV technology improves year by year, but until range hits a reliable, say, 500km with plentiful fast recharging points, and price falls in line with ICE equivalent sized and specced models, I'm not buying.  I would also be concerned at the thought of sinking a premium price into a fast evolving technology that will probably have better and cheaper offerings in a matter of a few years.
> 
> EVs are undoubtedly the way of the future. The advantages are truly enormous in terms of engineering simplicity and variable running cost.  But price, arghhh!  And range!   Right now, for me, and I'm sure many others, they just don't cut the mustard.  I might consider a cheap secondhand model as a second family car, but we need one workhorse that does everything, all the time, without having to think about it.


i think you are missing the point here, if you have decided that an EV isnt for you fine, but its clear here that the issues could easily have been avoided and probably wont happen again now that @Slim is better equipped to mitigate against this in the future.

Unless you need to reach any point on the island and back without refuelling then its a moot point for most people.

If there was an i dont like EV bingo you would have hit most of them


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## Alkers86 (28 Mar 2022)

Baby boomer said:


> I appreciate the honest account from @Slim that pulls no punches.   All too often one gets the evangelical pitch from EV owners about how great it is, etc etc.
> I have to say though that that trip back from the airport sounds like an absolute nightmare.  It's the sort of thing that takes the joy and pleasure out of motoring and turns it into a chore.  My ten year old diesel can reach any point on this island and back, twice, without refuelling.  Range anxiety will stop being a thing only when you can stop having to *plan* your journey.   Admittedly, EV technology improves year by year, but until range hits a reliable, say, 500km with plentiful fast recharging points, and price falls in line with ICE equivalent sized and specced models, I'm not buying.  I would also be concerned at the thought of sinking a premium price into a fast evolving technology that will probably have better and cheaper offerings in a matter of a few years.
> 
> EVs are undoubtedly the way of the future. The advantages are truly enormous in terms of engineering simplicity and variable running cost.  But price, arghhh!  And range!   Right now, for me, and I'm sure many others, they just don't cut the mustard.  I might consider a cheap secondhand model as a second family car, but we need one workhorse that does everything, all the time, without having to think about it.


The 500km range is only worthwhile if you regularly make such journeys. There's no point in paying mega bucks for a 100kWh battery and then the longest trip you ever do is 100km and once a year you drive to the airport and back. The extra cost you've spent on such a big battery for that one trip a year would be appalling when you do the math. You could get yourself a 50kWh battery car with 200km range and rent a limo every year for the airport trip and still save money.

If you regularly travel 500km in one trip you are in the minority of private car drivers in Ireland.


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## Leo (29 Mar 2022)

Alkers86 said:


> The extra cost you've spent on such a big battery for that one trip a year would be appalling when you do the math. You could get yourself a 50kWh battery car with 200km range and rent a limo every year for the airport trip and still save money.


That's the thing with purchases like cars where the heart often plays a bigger role than the head. If everyone was to do the maths, most would end up owning something like Fiat 500s or not buying one at all. I'm not sure what formula would spit out the Hyundai Tucson as the logical choice, but that was the best selling car here last year.

People also like to have flexibility and so put a value on that. The premium for an ~80kWh battery over a ~60kWh one is ~€7k, some people would consider that well worthwhile for an additional 30% of range.


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## Baby boomer (29 Mar 2022)

Alkers86 said:


> The 500km range is only worthwhile if you regularly make such journeys. There's no point in paying mega bucks for a 100kWh battery and then the longest trip you ever do is 100km and once a year you drive to the airport and back. The extra cost you've spent on such a big battery for that one trip a year would be appalling when you do the math. You could get yourself a 50kWh battery car with 200km range and rent a limo every year for the airport trip and still save money.
> 
> If you regularly travel 500km in one trip you are in the minority of private car drivers in Ireland.


I disagree profoundly.  A car with a 200km range is a pale shadow of what a car should be.  And presumably that's day 1 range, with battery fully topped up, lightly loaded, warm weather with no heating or a/c.  The idea that you can't go outside a 100km (60 miles!!) radius without planning your journey around recharging points is frankly a bit sad.  You lose all flexibility to change your travel plans, take a spontaneous diversion and do all the things that the most basic ICE enables you to do.  *Range anxiety will only stop being a thing when EV owners no longer need to swap tips and stories about how to get the most out of the battery*.  Just like how you don't hear ICE owners talking about how to squeeze the last few miles out of the last drop of diesel before finding a filling station with a fast pump and a compatible hose!!  Refuelling just needs to be a boring routine operation that isn't even worthy of comment.  If I tell someone I drove to the far reaches of West Cork last week, their very next question won't be: "oh, how did you manage to top up on diesel?"  When a similar journey in an EV induces a similar lack of interest in recharging, then, and only then, is range anxiety no longer a thing.

Now, I wish that this wasn't the case.  I *like* technology and new and more efficient ways of doing things.  I like saving money too (this is askaboutmoney, after all!)  And EVs are so much more efficient than ICE  - a battery and motor is so much simpler than the traditional engine with associated gearbox, clutch, cooling system, starter motor, alternator, etc, etc.  Then there's regenerative braking and so on.  
But there's two huge problems, range and price.  I just can't pretend to ignore those for the sake of being all "green".  I will not pay a 50% premium for a vehicle with cut down functionality.  
I have already taken the plunge and installed a domestic heat pump and underfloor heating (for less than the price premium of an EV over an ICE.) It is an excellent investment and gives superb comfort and cost effectiveness.  I will probably install solar PV very shortly as it also makes economic sense.  (Although battery storage probably doesn't, yet.)

And when EV hits 500km consistent range without a price premium over ICE, I'm onboard.  But until then, I need a vehicle that meets all of my needs, all of the time.  Not most of my needs most of the time.


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## PGF2016 (29 Mar 2022)

Baby boomer said:


> I disagree profoundly.  A car with a 200km range is a pale shadow of what a car should be.  And presumably that's day 1 range, with battery fully topped up, lightly loaded, warm weather with no heating or a/c.  The idea that you can't go outside a 100km (60 miles!!) radius without planning your journey around recharging points is frankly a bit sad.  You lose all flexibility to change your travel plans, take a spontaneous diversion and do all the things that the most basic ICE enables you to do.  *Range anxiety will only stop being a thing when EV owners no longer need to swap tips and stories about how to get the most out of the battery*.  Just like how you don't hear ICE owners talking about how to squeeze the last few miles out of the last drop of diesel before finding a filling station with a fast pump and a compatible hose!!  Refuelling just needs to be a boring routine operation that isn't even worthy of comment.  If I tell someone I drove to the far reaches of West Cork last week, their very next question won't be: "oh, how did you manage to top up on diesel?"  When a similar journey in an EV induces a similar lack of interest in recharging, then, and only then, is range anxiety no longer a thing.
> 
> Now, I wish that this wasn't the case.  I *like* technology and new and more efficient ways of doing things.  I like saving money too (this is askaboutmoney, after all!)  And EVs are so much more efficient than ICE  - a battery and motor is so much simpler than the traditional engine with associated gearbox, clutch, cooling system, starter motor, alternator, etc, etc.  Then there's regenerative braking and so on.
> But there's two huge problems, range and price.  I just can't pretend to ignore those for the sake of being all "green".  I will not pay a 50% premium for a vehicle with cut down functionality.
> ...


Genuine question and not having a go - how many times a year do you drive more than 300km in one go?

I understand you want the option to be spontaneous but am still interested in the answer.


And if anyone else wants to chime in feel free. 

Personally I'd do it less than 5 times a year.


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## Baby boomer (29 Mar 2022)

PGF2016 said:


> Genuine question and not having a go - how many times a year do you drive more than 300km in one go?
> 
> I understand you want the option to be spontaneous but am still interested in the answer.
> 
> ...


Good question.  I do a regular round trip of almost exactly 300km about once a fortnight.  The odd time, I do that 2 or 3 times a week.  I do a long trip of about 400km (one way) to visit family about every 6 weeks.  Pre-pandemic, there used to be weekend breaks.....

But even if I didn't have those requirements, the point remains - once you have to even *think* about range, it's a problem!


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## Leo (29 Mar 2022)

PGF2016 said:


> And if anyone else wants to chime in feel free.
> 
> Personally I'd do it less than 5 times a year.


Looking at my Timeline, I've only done it 3 times in 5 years


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## Blackrock1 (29 Mar 2022)

Leo said:


> Looking at my Timeline, I've only done it 3 times in 5 years


which is more common, so the anxiety over range is often misplaced, maybe not in babyboomers case as the poster appears to travel long distances often, for most the perceived negatives of an EV are outweighed by the positives.


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## fayf (29 Mar 2022)

PGF2016 said:


> Genuine question and not having a go - how many times a year do you drive more than 300km in one go?
> 
> I understand you want the option to be spontaneous but am still interested in the answer.
> 
> ...


Its fairly limited number of occasions for me, 3 or 4 times per year for me, it tends to be around holidaying in Ireland, flying out of Dublin airport, or going to gigs events in Dublin where i am not staying over.

There are always people who drive a lot for work, or travelling a long way to visit family regularly, but thats a minority of the general population, EV’s may not suit them, but could suit the more than 3 quarters who are not driving 300kms + per return trip, on a weekly or bi weekly basis.


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## Itchy (29 Mar 2022)

Baby boomer said:


> But even if I didn't have those requirements, the point remains - once you have to even *think* about range, it's a problem!



Problem is subjective though. For example, if I paid you €90 (say 50l @€1.80 per l) every time you had to overcome this problem, would it ease the pain?


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## Baby boomer (29 Mar 2022)

Itchy said:


> Problem is subjective though. For example, if I paid you €90 (say 50l @€1.80 per l) every time you had to overcome this problem, would it ease the pain?


So you're paying me €90, say twice a week, for the lifetime of my EV.  Deal!  Not alone does it ease the pain, it's enough to finance, fuel and maintain a decent ICE alongside the EV.


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## RetirementPlan (29 Mar 2022)

Baby boomer said:


> I disagree profoundly.  A car with a 200km range is a pale shadow of what a car should be.  And presumably that's day 1 range, with battery fully topped up, lightly loaded, warm weather with no heating or a/c.  The idea that you can't go outside a 100km (60 miles!!) radius without planning your journey around recharging points is frankly a bit sad.  You lose all flexibility to change your travel plans, take a spontaneous diversion and do all the things that the most basic ICE enables you to do.  *Range anxiety will only stop being a thing when EV owners no longer need to swap tips and stories about how to get the most out of the battery*.  Just like how you don't hear ICE owners talking about how to squeeze the last few miles out of the last drop of diesel before finding a filling station with a fast pump and a compatible hose!!  Refuelling just needs to be a boring routine operation that isn't even worthy of comment.  If I tell someone I drove to the far reaches of West Cork last week, their very next question won't be: "oh, how did you manage to top up on diesel?"  When a similar journey in an EV induces a similar lack of interest in recharging, then, and only then, is range anxiety no longer a thing.


When will diesel owners no longer need to swap tips and stories about their particular filters and their adblue?


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## Baby boomer (29 Mar 2022)

RetirementPlan said:


> When will diesel owners no longer need to swap tips and stories about their particular filters and their adblue?


Filters?  What are you on about?  It's just not an issue.  Neither is AdBlue.  You get a message on the dash when it's low.  You can top it up at just about any filling station next time you're getting a fuel top-up.  No tips, no war stories or fireside tales necessary.  Motoring as it should be.  Just get on with it, no fuss, no anxiety.


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## RetirementPlan (29 Mar 2022)

Baby boomer said:


> Filters?  What are you on about?  It's just not an issue.  Neither is AdBlue.  You get a message on the dash when it's low.  You can top it up at just about any filling station next time you're getting a fuel top-up.  No tips, no war stories or fireside tales necessary.  Motoring as it should be.  Just get on with it, no fuss, no anxiety.


Six pages of search results about it here on AAM though, so seems to be a a few war stories or anxiety about it here.

Are you sure ICE motoring is as anxiety-free as you think? How about annual maintenance and servicing, NCT, emissions tests and all that?


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## Blackrock1 (29 Mar 2022)

Baby boomer said:


> Filters?  What are you on about?  It's just not an issue.  Neither is AdBlue.  You get a message on the dash when it's low.  You can top it up at just about any filling station next time you're getting a fuel top-up.  No tips, no war stories or fireside tales necessary.  Motoring as it should be.  Just get on with it, no fuss, no anxiety.


imagine having to go out of your way to refuel your car all the time.


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## Leo (29 Mar 2022)

Blackrock1 said:


> which is more common, so the anxiety over range is often misplaced, maybe not in babyboomers case as the poster appears to travel long distances often, for most the perceived negatives of an EV are outweighed by the positives.


Yeah, average mileage on private cars here is 16k a year, so just over 300km in total every week.


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## Baby boomer (29 Mar 2022)

RetirementPlan said:


> Six pages of search results about it here on AAM though, so seems to be a a few war stories or anxiety about it here.
> 
> Are you sure ICE motoring is as anxiety-free as you think? How about annual maintenance and servicing, NCT, emissions tests and all that?


Ah here now, you're really clutching at straws!

Annual maintenance and servicing?  The clue is in the word "Annual".  I can deal with that.  Yes, I'll happily concede an EV requires less maintenance.  But it also requires 1.5 times the purchase price and has, ahem, range issues!

NCT?  A pain in the ass but don't EVs have to do an NCT too?  BTW, most NCT failures are for tyres, brakes and suspension.  

Emissions test?  Part of the NCT.  Do your annual maintenance and servicing and the emissions test won't be a problem.


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## AlbacoreA (30 Mar 2022)

I very rarely do a long journey 100K+ in the car. 
I also fill up at the same station about 95% of the time, the one nearest my house.


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## Leo (30 Mar 2022)

We should probably  bring this back on topic now, I'd suggest new threads for any ICE Vs EV topics to thrash them out in detail.


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## Baby boomer (30 Mar 2022)

I'm absolutely amazed at all you guys who rarely if ever do long journeys.  Fair enough - to each their own.  Perhaps it's a Dublin thing?  In my own case, coming from the West of Ireland as a callow youth four decades ago, long distance trips were the main reason for my initial car purchase and remain important still.  But if you're a born and bred Dub, I suppose it could be different.


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## Leo (30 Mar 2022)

Took my own advice   



Baby boomer said:


> I'm absolutely amazed at all you guys who rarely if ever do long journeys. Fair enough - to each their own. Perhaps it's a Dublin thing?



More than 40% of the population live in and around Dublin, to exceed 300km from home for all those means hitting the extremes of the north east or south west.

What annual mileage are you doing? From your earlier post it sounds like you may well be doing a lot more than the 16k average:



Baby boomer said:


> Good question. I do a regular round trip of almost exactly 300km about once a fortnight. The odd time, I do that 2 or 3 times a week. I do a long trip of about 400km (one way) to visit family about every 6 weeks. Pre-pandemic, there used to be weekend breaks.....


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## Purple (30 Mar 2022)

I rarely do more than 400Km in a day but there's no way I'd buy a car that couldn't do that. I'm not sufficiently well organised to own an EV as I'd definitely run out of charge regularly. 
I love the idea of having one. I love where the technology is going, but it's not sufficiently evolved for me to buy one and range and price are the major factors.


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## Baby boomer (30 Mar 2022)

Leo said:


> Took my own advice
> 
> 
> 
> More than 40% of the population live in and around Dublin, to exceed 300km from home for all those means hitting the extremes of the north east or south west.


I was thinking of round trip distance rather than one way.  It was suggested in this thread that 200km range was adequate for most purposes.  That's barely Portlaoise and forget the North East or South West without one, or maybe even two, recharging stops.  



Leo said:


> What annual mileage are you doing? From your earlier post it sounds like you may well be doing a lot more than the 16k average:


Back when I was working full time, I was doing about 40k km per year.  Now, perhaps 25k.  Less of course during the lockdown.


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## Baby boomer (30 Mar 2022)

Purple said:


> I love the idea of having one. I love where the technology is going, but it's not sufficiently evolved for me to buy one and range and price are the major factors.


Exactly!  That's precisely where I am too.  And I am very wary of EV evangelists who pooh-pooh the range and price issues.  They are very real problems and they do matter.


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## Blackrock1 (30 Mar 2022)

Purple said:


> I rarely do more than 400Km in a day but there's no way I'd buy a car that couldn't do that. I'm not sufficiently well organised to own an EV as I'd definitely run out of charge regularly.
> I love the idea of having one. I love where the technology is going, but it's not sufficiently evolved for me to buy one and range and price are the major factors.


if you rarely do more than 400km in a day why would you regularly run out of charge?


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## Blackrock1 (30 Mar 2022)

Baby boomer said:


> Exactly!  That's precisely where I am too.  And I am very wary of EV evangelists who pooh-pooh the range and price issues.  They are very real problems and they do matter.


id be more wary of someone who hasnt owned one pooh-poohing the ownership experience given almost all EV drivers will have come from an ICE car but the vast majority of those who make posts like yours havent owned an EV


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## Baby boomer (30 Mar 2022)

BTW is there anything to be said for fitting solar PV panels to the roof of EVs?  Genuine question.  Even 2 or 3 kw would be helpful on a sunny day.


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## Blackrock1 (30 Mar 2022)

Baby boomer said:


> BTW is there anything to be said for fitting solar PV panels to the roof of EVs?  Genuine question.  Even 2 or 3 kw would be helpful on a sunny day.


new Kia ev9 has some solar fitted i believe, to the bonnet.


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## Baby boomer (30 Mar 2022)

Blackrock1 said:


> id be more wary of someone who hasnt owned one pooh-poohing the ownership experience given almost all EV drivers will have come from an ICE car but the vast majority of those who make posts like yours havent owned an EV


I prefer to learn from the mistakes of others rather than repeat those mistakes myself.  Makes sense, eh?

And I take the accounts of ownership experience at face value.  Invariably, real world range is reported to be less than claimed by the manufacturer, and is not adequate for my needs (which I accept may not be typical but thats reality for me.)

And for this cut down functionality, I am expected to pay a 50% price premium.  Thanks but no thanks! Come back to me with a 500km range and price parity with ICE and I can assure you I'm enthusiastically onboard.


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## Firefly (30 Mar 2022)

Range wouldn't be a big concern for me. Most of my journeys are short. The odd long journey would be along main roads anyway and I'm sure I'd find somewhere to charge up. In fact, I think range anxiety is more to do with the infrastructure at this stage than the cars themselves. I think petrol stations will install chargers in time..where they will charge much higher rates to "fill up" and so be it.

The biggie for me though is price. I buy older saloons for about 15k or thereabouts, where you get a lot of bang for your buck. I keep them for about 5 years so have never bought a car that costs more than 3k annually in depreciation (which is how I calculate the cost of buying a car). With that, I get plenty space for lugging all sorts of things.  Most of the EVs that might fall into my price range are way too small. Anything larger is too expensive. Even the reduced running costs of an EV wouldn't nearly offset the increase in cost of a more expensive car, especially for the relatively low mileage I do. Given the fact I do buy older cars, the high cost of replacing EV batteries is another thing that would put me off buying an older EV.

Like Purple, I also like the idea of owning an EV, but when it comes to brass tacks I couldn't justify it yet. Perhaps a PHEV like an Outlander might do the trick though as I would definitely keep it charged and it would cover 90%+ of my journeys in EV mode.


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## PGF2016 (30 Mar 2022)

Purple said:


> I rarely do more than 400Km in a day but there's no way I'd buy a car that couldn't do that.


What EV can't do 400km in a day? 


A quick Google suggests the following distances from Dublin:
Belfast 170km
Limerick 200km 
Galway / Sligo 210km
Westport 250km
Cork 260km
Waterford 170km

Any of the new VW, Kia, Hyundai or Teslas should easily be able to manage those journeys. I would guess most doing those journeys would stay overnight.


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## Purple (30 Mar 2022)

Blackrock1 said:


> if you rarely do more than 400km in a day why would you regularly run out of charge?


Because I'm disorganised and would forget to plug it in. I'm an idiot, basically.


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## Purple (30 Mar 2022)

PGF2016 said:


> What EV can't do 400km in a day?
> 
> 
> A quick Google suggests the following distances from Dublin:
> ...


I've driven Dublin to Cork dozens of times n the last few years and haven't stayed overnight.

I've often done Dublin to Derry and not stayed overnight.

I've done Dublin Limerick hundreds of times and have never stayed overnight.



The bottom line is that the requirement to refuel my car every day would cause stress.


PGF2016 said:


> Any of the new VW, Kia, Hyundai or Teslas should easily be able to manage those journeys. I would guess most doing those journeys would stay overnight.


They are all expensive. So, it's back to range and cost.


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## Ceist Beag (30 Mar 2022)

I agree with Purple. Anyone with teenage (or even younger) kids knows the stress charging brings, I couldn't cope adding my means of transport into that list!


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## Blackrock1 (30 Mar 2022)

Purple said:


> I've driven Dublin to Cork dozens of times n the last few years and haven't stayed overnight.
> 
> I've often done Dublin to Derry and not stayed overnight.
> 
> ...


Plugging your car in every day would cause stress? how do you manage your mobile phone


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## Blackrock1 (30 Mar 2022)

Ceist Beag said:


> I agree with Purple. Anyone with teenage (or even younger) kids knows the stress charging brings, I couldn't cope adding my means of transport into that list!


so driving to a petrol station isnt stressful but plugging in on your own driveway is?


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## Blackrock1 (30 Mar 2022)

Firefly said:


> Range wouldn't be a big concern for me. Most of my journeys are short. The odd long journey would be along main roads anyway and I'm sure I'd find somewhere to charge up. In fact, I think range anxiety is more to do with the infrastructure at this stage than the cars themselves. I think petrol stations will install chargers in time..where they will charge much higher rates to "fill up" and so be it.
> 
> The biggie for me though is price. I buy older saloons for about 15k or thereabouts, where you get a lot of bang for your buck. I keep them for about 5 years so have never bought a car that costs more than 3k annually in depreciation (which is how I calculate the cost of buying a car). With that, I get plenty space for lugging all sorts of things.  Most of the EVs that might fall into my price range are way too small. Anything larger is too expensive. Even the reduced running costs of an EV wouldn't nearly offset the increase in cost of a more expensive car, especially for the relatively low mileage I do. Given the fact I do buy older cars, the high cost of replacing EV batteries is another thing that would put me off buying an older EV.
> 
> Like Purple, I also like the idea of owning an EV, but when it comes to brass tacks I couldn't justify it yet. Perhaps a PHEV like an Outlander might do the trick though as I would definitely keep it charged and it would cover 90%+ of my journeys in EV mode.


to be fair most ev models are relatively new, so older saloons for 15k dont exist yet but they will in 4 or 5 years. Also remember most evs have more space inside (especially purpose built ones) than the equivalent ICE car, i think VW claim that the ID3 is passat sized inside.


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## Firefly (30 Mar 2022)

Blackrock1 said:


> to be fair most ev models are relatively new, so older saloons for 15k dont exist yet but they will in 4 or 5 years. Also remember most evs have more space inside (especially purpose built ones) than the equivalent ICE car, i think VW claim that the ID3 is passat sized inside.


I know you just mentioned the ID3 as an example, but a (very) quick check on VW.ie shows the starting price of 44,285 so I would imagine that by the time I could pick one up for 15k it would be very old and would possibly be getting close to having its battery replaced. I would happily buy an EV if the cost came down though. I would get over the space too I think...herself drives a big SUV so that could be used for the odd trip to the builder's providers once I'd clean it out afterwards


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## Leo (30 Mar 2022)

Baby boomer said:


> I was thinking of round trip distance rather than one way. It was suggested in this thread that 200km range was adequate for most purposes. That's barely Portlaoise and forget the North East or South West without one, or maybe even two, recharging stops.


The question above was about driving 300km 'in one go', so let's stick with that unless you can point to some evidence of lots of people driving 300km+ and back in a single day in private cars. 

I don't think it serves any real purpose to talk about the problems associated with a 200km range when there is no car currently on the market that is so limited. The Zoe is about the cheapest EV here and that has a 395km range.



Baby boomer said:


> Back when I was working full time, I was doing about 40k km per year. Now, perhaps 25k. Less of course during the lockdown.


So you clearly drive a lot more than most, your 25k puts you more than 50% above the average user. Let's not get caught up with a small minority of users, no one has claimed that EVs are suitable for all yet.


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## Blackrock1 (30 Mar 2022)

Firefly said:


> I know you just mentioned the ID3 as an example, but a (very) quick check on VW.ie shows the starting price of 44,285 so I would imagine that by the time I could pick one up for 15k it would be very old and would possibly be getting close to having its battery replaced. I would happily buy an EV if the cost came down though. I would get over the space too I think...herself drives a big SUV so that could be used for the odd trip to the builder's providers once I'd clean it out afterwards


i think that doesnt include the 5k seai grant, so you are down to 40k new. After 4 years id guess you are close to 50% of the new value, there is no suggestion that an EV with normal mileage will need its battery replaced at that stage or any time soon after that either.


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## Purple (30 Mar 2022)

Blackrock1 said:


> Plugging your car in every day would cause stress? how do you manage your mobile phone


I've a charger at home, at work and in the car.


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## Firefly (30 Mar 2022)

Blackrock1 said:


> i think that doesnt include the 5k seai grant, so you are down to 40k new. After 4 years id guess you are close to 50% of the new value, there is no suggestion that an EV with normal mileage will need its battery replaced at that stage or any time soon after that either.


Well if I could pick up say a 5 year one for under 20k I would be interested alright for sure. The extra few grand up front would be offset by the lower running costs.


----------



## Baby boomer (30 Mar 2022)

Blackrock1 said:


> to be fair most ev models are relatively new, so older saloons for 15k dont exist yet but they will in 4 or 5 years. Also remember most evs have more space inside (especially purpose built ones) than the equivalent ICE car, i think VW claim that the ID3 is passat sized inside.


Whoa, there!  I drive a Passat and it's very roomy and comfortable, with particularly spacious back seats and a massive boot.  I've seen the ID3 and while it's a nice enough car, it's certainly not Passat sized.  Basically it's the EV version of a Golf.


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## losttheplot (30 Mar 2022)

Living in the Midlands, I've a Hyundai Kona 3 years now. 72k kilometres on it, so that's 24k average per year. Have rarely used public chargers and have never been stranded due to range.

A Tesla model 3 can do 600km.
Under no circumstances should you get an EV without a home charger.


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## Leo (30 Mar 2022)

Baby boomer said:


> Whoa, there! I drive a Passat and it's very roomy and comfortable, with particularly spacious back seats and a massive boot. I've seen the ID3 and while it's a nice enough car, it's certainly not Passat sized. Basically it's the EV version of a Golf.


Doesn't look to be a massive difference in the cabin area. Most of that extra length is boot space, so you get 53% extra cargo capacity. The real surprise is that with the rear seats folded, cargo space is largely similar which suggests a lot more rear passenger space in the ID.3.


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## Blackrock1 (30 Mar 2022)

Leo said:


> Doesn't look to be a massive difference in the cabin area. Most of that extra length is boot space, so you get 53% extra cargo capacity. The real surprise is that with the rear seats folded, cargo space is largely similar which suggests a lot more rear passenger space in the ID.3.


Yes the wheelbase differential is very small so its no surprise, despite the protests above!


----------



## Purple (30 Mar 2022)

Blackrock1 said:


> Yes the wheelbase differential is very small so its no surprise, despite the protests above!


Who will buy a car that is perfect for 98% of what you need it for but is no good for going on holidays with the family?


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## AlbacoreA (30 Mar 2022)

Baby boomer said:


> BTW is there anything to be said for fitting solar PV panels to the roof of EVs?  Genuine question.  Even 2 or 3 kw would be helpful on a sunny day.



They only useful to keep the normal 12V battery topped up. (wonder why ICE cars don't have them) 
But they can't supply enough juice to the main battery to be useful. So they are pointless for that purpose.


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## Ceist Beag (30 Mar 2022)

Leo said:


> Doesn't look to be a massive difference in the cabin area. Most of that extra length is boot space, so you get 53% extra cargo capacity. The real surprise is that with the rear seats folded, cargo space is largely similar which suggests a lot more rear passenger space in the ID.3.


53% extra cargo capacity is a pretty massive difference to a lot of people! Personally I wouldn't consider a car where boot space is less than half of a typical saloon.


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## AlbacoreA (30 Mar 2022)

Purple said:


> Who will buy a car that is perfect for 98% of what you need it for but is no good for going on holidays with the family?



People who mostly fly to where they are going and rent a car. 
They just apply that same thinking to domestic holidays.


----------



## AlbacoreA (30 Mar 2022)

Ceist Beag said:


> 53% extra cargo capacity is a pretty massive difference to a lot of people! Personally I wouldn't consider a car where boot space is less than half of a typical saloon.



Depends on what you need. We have MPV, a regular saloon seems tiny.


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## Blackrock1 (30 Mar 2022)

Baby boomer said:


> Whoa, there!  I drive a Passat and it's very roomy and comfortable, with particularly spacious back seats and a massive boot.  I've seen the ID3 and while it's a nice enough car, it's certainly not Passat sized.  Basically it's the EV version of a Golf.


maybe get into one, you need to stop assuming and start experiencing


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## Blackrock1 (30 Mar 2022)

Purple said:


> Who will buy a car that is perfect for 98% of what you need it for but is no good for going on holidays with the family?


Loads of people, it could be a second car? maybe you have a small family. Why is it no good for holidays?


----------



## Firefly (30 Mar 2022)

losttheplot said:


> Living in the Midlands, I've a Hyundai Kona 3 years now. 72k kilometres on it, so that's 24k average per year. Have rarely used public chargers and have never been stranded due to range.


Most people (I think) seem to have the view that EVs are most suited to urban dwellers who do mostly short commutes. I think if you do well above average mileage but don't exceed the range maximum, as in your case, EVs make a lot of sense, given how much you will save on fuel. I think it's why I am seeing more & more EV taxis around...


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## Leo (30 Mar 2022)

Blackrock1 said:


> Yes the wheelbase differential is very small so its no surprise, despite the protests above!


Most of the dedicated EV platforms won't have the drive shaft tunnel affecting the middle seat in the rear too, though I did see a review of the Kia EV6 I think that mentioned the thicker platform meant the floor was a little higher so there wasn't a lot of space underneath the front seats.


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## Blackrock1 (30 Mar 2022)

Ceist Beag said:


> 53% extra cargo capacity is a pretty massive difference to a lot of people! Personally I wouldn't consider a car where boot space is less than half of a typical saloon.


passat boot size is typical saloon size and the discussion was regarding the interior space not the boot.


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## AlbacoreA (30 Mar 2022)

Ceist Beag said:


> I agree with Purple. Anyone with teenage (or even younger) kids knows the stress charging brings, I couldn't cope adding my means of transport into that list!



I know some people like to do massive non stop journeys.  Personally we prefer rest stops to break a long journey. I don't have an EV. 
You can still buy a diesel with massive no stop range if thats a thing you want to do.


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## Leo (30 Mar 2022)

Purple said:


> Who will buy a car that is perfect for 98% of what you need it for but is no good for going on holidays with the family?


You probably mean meets or exceeds minimum requirements 98% of the time though, right?     Most of my driving is around town on my own where a smaller car would be a lot closer to perfect.


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## Ceist Beag (30 Mar 2022)

Blackrock1 said:


> the discussion was regarding the interior space not the boot.


Was it? The poster in question stated "and a massive boot." so presumably boot size is important to them.


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## AlbacoreA (30 Mar 2022)

Firefly said:


> Most people (I think) seem to have the view that EVs are most suited to urban dwellers who do mostly short commutes. I think if you do well above average mileage but don't exceed the range maximum, as in your case, EVs make a lot of sense, given how much you will save on fuel. I think it's why I am seeing more & more EV taxis around...



I had a meetup with EV drivers a few years back as kind of an industry thing. I was staggered to find many if not most of them were doing massive pan European journeys and commutes in their EVs. In their eyes the massive savings in fuel and servicing were worth any hassle. I think people on the bleeding edge are likely to be people open to trying new things and not concerned about it now working out. It was just part of trying something new.


----------



## Blackrock1 (30 Mar 2022)

Ceist Beag said:


> Was it? The poster in question stated "and a massive boot." so presumably boot size is important to them.


in response to me explaining that the ID3 is passat sized on the interior, and it is. and has the same cargo space as well if you arent carrying rear passengers for the odd occasion when you need to lug a chest of drawers.


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## Purple (30 Mar 2022)

Leo said:


> You probably mean meets or exceeds minimum requirements 98% of the time though, right?


I mean meets  98% of minimum requirements 100% of the time. 



Leo said:


> Most of my driving is around town on my own where a smaller car would be a lot closer to perfect.


Or a bike, or an EBike. 


Blackrock1 said:


> Loads of people, it could be a second car? maybe you have a small family. Why is it no good for holidays?


I'm a single parent so I need a car that will do 100% of what I need.


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## Purple (30 Mar 2022)

Blackrock1 said:


> in response to me explaining that the ID3 is passat sized on the interior, and it is. and has the same cargo space as well if you arent carrying rear passengers for the odd occasion when you need to lug a chest of drawers.


But it's no use for a family going on a holiday in Ireland... unless you buy a roof box.


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## Leo (30 Mar 2022)

Ceist Beag said:


> Was it? The poster in question stated "and a massive boot." so presumably boot size is important to them.


No, that was in response to:



Blackrock1 said:


> Also remember most evs have more space inside (especially purpose built ones) than the equivalent ICE car, i think VW claim that the ID3 is passat sized inside.


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## Leo (30 Mar 2022)

Purple said:


> Or a bike, or an EBike.


And run my hair?


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## Blackrock1 (30 Mar 2022)

Purple said:


> But it's no use for a family going on a holiday in Ireland... unless you buy a roof box.


why not? depends on how many people are travelling, the boot isnt tiny, do people with golfs not take holidays? also my car has a 660L boot and i could still do with a roofbox, is my car no use for a holiday in ireland?


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## Leo (30 Mar 2022)

Ceist Beag said:


> 53% extra cargo capacity is a pretty massive difference to a lot of people! Personally I wouldn't consider a car where boot space is less than half of a typical saloon.


Well that rules out probably 50% of EVs and a similar number of ICE models as well.


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## Purple (30 Mar 2022)

Leo said:


> And run my hair?


You're just having a go at me now 'cause you know I'm follicly challenged.


----------



## Purple (30 Mar 2022)

Blackrock1 said:


> why not? depends on how many people are travelling, the boot isnt tiny, do people with golfs not take holidays?


Not if they have kids like mine. Teenaged girls NEED a massive amount of stuff for a week in Wexford. 


Blackrock1 said:


> also my car has a 660L boot and i could still do with a roofbox, is my car no use for a holiday in ireland?


That's around twice the size of the ID3's boot. 
As I said, I like EV's and I'm glad that we are moving that way. They just aren't there for me yet. That and I don't use my car that much any more (I cycle to work) so I'm probably best off, from an environmental perspective, holding onto what I have.


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## dereko1969 (30 Mar 2022)

Purple said:


> But it's no use for a family going on a holiday in Ireland... unless you buy a roof box.


Friends of ours were just about to buy a new bigger EV (due to kids growing larger) and only when they asked would their current roof box fit did they find out the new EV wouldn't support it - as in terms of weight, the roof was so thin. They're EV converts but needed more space so ended up keeping their current EV and buying a second-hand Diesel SUV.

I think some of the comments on here are kind of hilarious - a car *must *do this in order to be a car, it's sad really. Most peoples journeys are perfect for EV use, some posters here seem to almost feel their masculinity is in question if they're "forced" to use an EV.

By the time ICE are off the road - mid 2030s - battery range and number of charging points will have massively improved. No-one is forcing anyone to buy an EV now.


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## AlbacoreA (30 Mar 2022)

I was thinking my primary larger car would be the one to replace with a EV. I've actually thinking I should make this the second car for when we need it, and switch our primary driving to our 2nd smaller car and make that an EV.


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## AlbacoreA (30 Mar 2022)

There is time to sit back with popcorn and see how EV landscape develops over the next decade. 

While I usually hold cars for a long time. When I replaced one car last year, I decided to pick up something that would do short term and didn't worry about the long term. Hence I didn't want to spend to much on it.


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## RetirementPlan (30 Mar 2022)

Purple said:


> I'm a single parent so I need a car that will do 100% of what I need.


Not necessarily.

You might well be better off with a 'standard' EV for most of your mileage, and renting something different when you need that extra space. If you transport a fridge once a year, it doesn't make sense to buy a vehicle that can comfortably transport a fridge, and have it transporting one person and a sports bag for most of the year. If you need to transport six people for one or two weekends a year, it makes little sense to buy a seven seater and travel round with six empty seats for most of the year. Car sharing and car renting can supplement car ownership.


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## RetirementPlan (30 Mar 2022)

AlbacoreA said:


> There is time to sit back with popcorn and see how EV landscape develops over the next decade.
> 
> While I usually hold cars for a long time. When I replaced one car last year, I decided to pick up something that would do short term and didn't worry about the long term. Hence I didn't want to spend to much on it.


While you (and I, as it happens) are sitting back with our popcorn, our planet is burning up. We don't have a whole lot of time to hang around on these decisions. It's not just about you or me.


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## AlbacoreA (30 Mar 2022)

I used to know people who use taxi's normally, or public transport. Only hiring a car for the occasional holiday or longer trip. 

Same thing.

I tried working out the costs for myself. But I worked out the extra of having a 2nd car was worth it to me.


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## losttheplot (30 Mar 2022)

AlbacoreA said:


> I had a meetup with EV drivers a few years back as kind of an industry thing. I was staggered to find many if not most of them were doing massive pan European journeys and commutes in their EVs. In their eyes the massive savings in fuel and servicing were worth any hassle. I think people on the bleeding edge are likely to be people open to trying new things and not concerned about it now working out. It was just part of trying something new.


I remember meeting a guy with a 1st generation Leaf, 120km range. Chargers were still free to use at the time and few other EVs on the road, so never a queue.
He was excited that he could drive Dublin to Galway for FREE. Stopping multiple times to charge didn't bother him, increased journey times didn't bother him. It was all free. He saw himself as a pioneer and said he would still be driving the same car in ten years.
Would love to know if he still is.


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## AlbacoreA (30 Mar 2022)

RetirementPlan said:


> While you (and I, as it happens) are sitting back with our popcorn, our planet is burning up. We don't have a whole lot of time to hang around on these decisions. It's not just about you or me.



Our mileage is very low. We are saving the planet by keeping old car going longer and not consuming the resources needed to get new cars.


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## AlbacoreA (30 Mar 2022)

losttheplot said:


> I remember meeting a guy with a 1st generation Leaf, 120km range. Chargers were still free to use at the time and few other EVs on the road, so never a queue.
> He was excited that he could drive Dublin to Galway for FREE. Stopping multiple times to charge didn't bother him, increased journey times didn't bother him. It was all free. He saw himself as a pioneer and said he would still be driving the same car in ten years.
> Would love to know if he still is.



I see Kryten got his Leaf upgraded. 









						Return of the LEAF: Robert drives his range extended EV home from Holland
					

To end 2021 we have a very special episode where Robert travels to Amsterdam to be reunited with a dear old friend. Robert's 2011 Nissan Leaf has been strand...




					www.youtube.com


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## Ceist Beag (30 Mar 2022)

dereko1969 said:


> I think some of the comments on here are kind of hilarious - a car *must *do this in order to be a car, it's sad really. Most peoples journeys are perfect for EV use, some posters here seem to almost feel their masculinity is in question if they're "forced" to use an EV.
> 
> By the time ICE are off the road - mid 2030s - battery range and number of charging points will have massively improved. No-one is forcing anyone to buy an EV now.


Not sure who that is aimed at but I don't see where you are getting that idea. All I see are people saying that an EV is not for them right now and then outline the reasons why.
For me personally, I certainly will consider an EV when shopping next (my point about stress and charging was slightly tongue in cheek but that seems to have been missed by at least one poster!). However for me this will be mainly for journeys where the whole family is not travelling (due to lack of boot space mainly, not so much range concerns although that would still be a factor as things stand right now) and also where storage is not a requirement (I coach a kids team and regularly fill the boot with gear so again storage is a concern). My decision will obviously also include the cost of EV vs ICE (both purchase price and running costs over a number of years) to evaluate if the extra purchase cost is sufficiently offset by the lower running costs.
I fully intend to keep the family car (diesel) for when needed but as AlbacoreA suggested, it could well be that this becomes the second car as the EV can be used primarily for most daily runs.


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## Purple (30 Mar 2022)

RetirementPlan said:


> Not necessarily.
> 
> You might well be better off with a 'standard' EV for most of your mileage, and renting something different when you need that extra space. If you transport a fridge once a year, it doesn't make sense to buy a vehicle that can comfortably transport a fridge, and have it transporting one person and a sports bag for most of the year. If you need to transport six people for one or two weekends a year, it makes little sense to buy a seven seater and travel round with six empty seats for most of the year. Car sharing and car renting can supplement car ownership.


Yea, maybe, but it's more hassle. I don't need more hassle.


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## AlbacoreA (30 Mar 2022)

My main issue is the 2nd car is manual warmish hatch. It my fun car  I don't want to give it up to a auto.


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## PGF2016 (30 Mar 2022)

losttheplot said:


> I remember meeting a guy with a 1st generation Leaf, 120km range. Chargers were still free to use at the time and few other EVs on the road, so never a queue.
> He was excited that he could drive Dublin to Galway for FREE. Stopping multiple times to charge didn't bother him, increased journey times didn't bother him. It was all free. He saw himself as a pioneer and said he would still be driving the same car in ten years.
> Would love to know if he still is.


I wonder what percentage of the population could live with that car for 360 days a year. Quite a lot I would suggest.


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## AlbacoreA (30 Mar 2022)

Purple said:


> Yea, maybe, but it's more hassle. I don't need more hassle.



That's a valid criteria to choose on.


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## AlbacoreA (30 Mar 2022)

PGF2016 said:


> I wonder what percentage of the population could live with that car for 360 days a year. Quite a lot I would suggest.



I can't get past how 1st gen leaf looks. The later leafs are better.


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## Firefly (30 Mar 2022)

AlbacoreA said:


> I can't get past how 1st gen leaf looks


They're pretty bad alright it must be said!


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## Baby boomer (30 Mar 2022)

I've heard it all now:
- range anxiety isn't a problem
- EVs are good value (the SEAI grant!!!!!) 
- and an ID3 is comparable to a Passat.  

Pull the other one, folks.  I get why people want to promote EV use.  I get there are advantages.  I've listed the pros and cons myself, very fairly, I'd have thought.  But why oh why, do EV evangelists determinedly ignore the reality that there are also flaws?  Range and price.  Even if you are willing to accept the cut-down range, and I accept it's not a problem for quite a few people, you've still got a MASSIVE price differential over ICE.  Given that there's a general consensus that EV prices will align with ICE over the next half decade, that implies huge depreciation on an EV purchased today.  As we're posting on askabout*money*, that's kinda significant!  

Perhaps a thought that might explain the strange attitudes.  My theory is that many EV owners don't really like cars and just don't get car enthusiasts at all.  If they did, and if they wanted to convert petrolheads to EV owners, they would surely emphasize the one great appeal that EVs have for car enthusiasts, namely performance.  EVs have stunning acceleration and leave ICEs a long way behind.  Yet this is hardly mentioned by most EV advocates.  It's almost like they're either a bit embarrassed to mention it, or else it just doesn't seem to occur to them.  Only Tesla, it seems, make a virtue of promoting their EVs as exciting and fun.  

And isn't exciting and fun a better selling proposition than dull, probably quite adequate and virtuous?


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## Purple (30 Mar 2022)

Baby boomer said:


> Given that there's a general consensus that EV prices will align with ICE over the next half decade, that implies huge depreciation on an EV purchased today


Yep, with next generation batteries which will double the energy density it just seems too early to buy an EV.


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## Blackrock1 (30 Mar 2022)

Baby boomer said:


> I've heard it all now:
> - range anxiety isn't a problem
> - EVs are good value (the SEAI grant!!!!!)
> - and an ID3 is comparable to a Passat.
> ...


I am a car enthusiast, ive owned several performance ICE cars, mostly BMW M cars but a few others as well. I have only had one EV, so if i am an evangelist or enthusiast of anything its a large engined bmw of which i have owned more than 10 rather than an EV of which i have only owned one.

What bothers me is the general ignorance to the advantages of EVs and the overexaggeration of the disdvantages. 

If you compare the current selling price inclusive of grants etc v the EQUIVALENT ICE car from the same manufacturer most arent that much more expensive at all.

And an ID3 has the same wheelbase and interior space as a passat i dont know why that bothers you so much, VW have said this themselves.


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## PGF2016 (30 Mar 2022)

Purple said:


> Yep, with next generation batteries which will double the energy density it just seems too early to buy an EV.


If it's too early to buy an EV then the alternative is ICE. Do you expect less depreciation with an ICE?


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## Baby boomer (30 Mar 2022)

PGF2016 said:


> If it's too early to buy an EV then the alternative is ICE. Do you expect less depreciation with an ICE?


The optimum strategy at the moment is to hold off vehicle purchase and keep your existing vehicle on the road.  If you need to buy, good for a used ICE that will tide you over until EV prices fall.


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## AlbacoreA (30 Mar 2022)

Purple said:


> Yep, with next generation batteries which will double the energy density it just seems too early to buy an EV.



They are already getting higher density in new models of existing cars.


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## PGF2016 (30 Mar 2022)

Baby boomer said:


> I've heard it all now:
> - range anxiety isn't a problem
> - EVs are good value (the SEAI grant!!!!!)
> - and an ID3 is comparable to a Passat.


Nobody has said range anxiety isn't a problem. Everyone is saying it's much less of a problem than most people think. And I think that's borne out by many here indicating they don't travel long distance all that often.



Baby boomer said:


> The optimum strategy at the moment is to hold off vehicle purchase and keep your existing vehicle on the road.  If you need to buy, good for a used ICE that will tide you over until EV prices fall.


This is the optimum strategy most of the time! Hold onto the vehicle you have.


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## AlbacoreA (30 Mar 2022)

Baby boomer said:


> I've heard it all now:
> - range anxiety isn't a problem
> - EVs are good value (the SEAI grant!!!!!)
> - and an ID3 is comparable to a Passat.
> ...



Because going in a boring straight line fast is only a tiny part of why most car enthusiasts like cars. I would suggest you don't know petrol heads that well. 



> Colin Chapman  “*Simplify, then add lightness*”



EVs aren't that interesting to most petrol heads. EVs are about tech and efficiency and convenience.  That's what appeals to people, and the environment. 

Price is the main obstacle.


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## Purple (30 Mar 2022)

AlbacoreA said:


> They are already getting higher density in new models of existing cars.


I'm talking about solid state batteries. They are 8-10 years away but will completely change the market.


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## PGF2016 (30 Mar 2022)

AlbacoreA said:


> EVs aren't that interesting to most petrol heads. EVs are about tech and efficiency and convenience. That's what appeals to people, and the environment.


Petrol heads? Why are they so in love with a fossil fuel? And a noisy engine.

And yes - I know it's more nuanced and not as simple as that.


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## AlbacoreA (30 Mar 2022)

PGF2016 said:


> Petrol heads? Why are they so in love with a fossil fuel? And a noisy engine.
> 
> And yes - I know it's more nuanced and not as simple as that.



Why? If you don't know, it can't be explained.


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## Gordon Gekko (30 Mar 2022)

If only there was something that gave the best of both worlds?

i.e. the ability to do 90% of one’s motoring on electric power but also the ability to drive using coventional fuel if needs be.

Imagine…you could drive to the shops, drop the kids off, go to the gym, or do a reasonably normal commute, all on a single charge.

But you could also drive to Killarney/Donegal/whereever if you fancied it.

It would be perfect and a game changer.


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## Blackrock1 (30 Mar 2022)

Gordon Gekko said:


> If only there was something that gave the best of both worlds?
> 
> i.e. the ability to do 90% of one’s motoring on electric power but also the ability to drive using coventional fuel if needs be.
> 
> ...


It’s a fudge and it will be short lived.


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## AlbacoreA (30 Mar 2022)

Been around for over a decade now. Not going away.


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## Baby boomer (30 Mar 2022)

Blackrock1 said:


> And an ID3 has the same wheelbase and interior space as a passat i dont know why that bothers you so much, VW have said this themselves.


And of course, VW wouldn't tell a lie would they?  Er, dieselgate anyone?  

And what selective specs you refer to!  A Passat is a full half metre longer than an ID3 even though they have similar wheelbases.  Passat is also slightly wider.  Chalk and cheese.  Passat has generous cabin space *and* generous boot space.  ID3 has one or the other.  You can fold down the rear seats and get a Passat sized boot.  So forget taking a family of four to the airport with luggage unless they plonk their suitcases on their lap!  (Yeah, yeah, I know, how many times a year etc etc? Hardly the point, though.)

Look, the ID3 is a fine car, but it belongs in the VW Golf, Ford Focus, mid-range saloon category, not the larger family saloon category.  It's just unsustainable to keep arguing that it's the equivalent of a Passat.  Drop the shovel and stop digging.


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## AlbacoreA (31 Mar 2022)

A Passat is longer and wider than a 7 seat Touran. Touran has a lot more interior space. Just saying.

I've no idea what the interior space of an ID3 is or a Passat. The Passat obviously has a big ass boot.


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## Blackrock1 (31 Mar 2022)

Baby boomer said:


> And of course, VW wouldn't tell a lie would they?  Er, dieselgate anyone?
> 
> And what selective specs you refer to!  A Passat is a full half metre longer than an ID3 even though they have similar wheelbases.  Passat is also slightly wider.  Chalk and cheese.  Passat has generous cabin space *and* generous boot space.  ID3 has one or the other.  You can fold down the rear seats and get a Passat sized boot.  So forget taking a family of four to the airport with luggage unless they plonk their suitcases on their lap!  (Yeah, yeah, I know, how many times a year etc etc? Hardly the point, though.)
> 
> Look, the ID3 is a fine car, but it belongs in the VW Golf, Ford Focus, mid-range saloon category, not the larger family saloon category.  It's just unsustainable to keep arguing that it's the equivalent of a Passat.  Drop the shovel and stop digging.


What I said was correct , it upsets you for some reason , I’m not sure why. You were the one that add parameters to it.


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## Baby boomer (31 Mar 2022)

Blackrock1 said:


> What I said was correct , it upsets you for some reason , I’m not sure why. You were the one that add parameters to it.


Look, it's possible to be technically correct and yet misleading at the same time.  It is correct to say that the ID3 and the Passat have similar wheelbases.  However, when that is used to assert that they are similar category vehicles, it becomes misleading.  You have to look at a wider range of parameters, of which overall length is an obvious marker.  When you do that it becomes obvious that the Passat is in the large saloon category and the ID3 is in the medium saloon category.


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## Blackrock1 (31 Mar 2022)

Baby boomer said:


> Look, it's possible to be technically correct and yet misleading at the same time.  It is correct to say that the ID3 and the Passat have similar wheelbases.  However, when that is used to assert that they are similar category vehicles, it becomes misleading.  You have to look at a wider range of parameters, of which overall length is an obvious marker.  When you do that it becomes obvious that the Passat is in the large saloon category and the ID3 is in the medium saloon category.


no one asserted that, i simply stated the interior space in an ID 3 is comparable to a passat, most EVs (purpose built ones, not reused ICE platforms) have more interior space than the exterior would suggest due to more efficient packaging without having to accommodate an engine and drive train.


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## Alkers86 (31 Mar 2022)

Baby boomer said:


> BTW is there anything to be said for fitting solar PV panels to the roof of EVs?  Genuine question.  Even 2 or 3 kw would be helpful on a sunny day.


Not really. 2kW or 3kW of solar panels is about 6-8 domestic panels which you see on houses, you wouldn't fit them on a truck, never mind a car.

Most EVs will not accept a charge of any lower than 1.2kW, so you'd need the area of three domestic solar panels to provide enough power to actually charge the battery and that's still way more than you'd fit on a car.

You might fit 600watts of a panel on a whole car roof or something, might keep your battery topped up while parked at the airport or would be good while camping but won't do much anything in terms of providing actual range.


----------



## Alkers86 (31 Mar 2022)

Gordon Gekko said:


> If only there was something that gave the best of both worlds?
> 
> i.e. the ability to do 90% of one’s motoring on electric power but also the ability to drive using coventional fuel if needs be.
> 
> ...


*SOME* PHEVs are like this. We have an ampera (2012), which has 45km winter electric range and over 60km in the summer. My wife does all her commuting (40km round trip) without using any petrol as the battery is charged each day. 

When the battery is empty (or you tell it to maintain the charge), the petrol engine kicks in and you get about 5.5l/100km, as a 150hp mild hybrid.

Saves €5 per day on petrol (before prices went crazy) plus cheaper tolls.


----------



## Gordon Gekko (31 Mar 2022)

Most are nowadays.

It seems like an ideal solution for most of the issues highlighted in this thread.


----------



## Leo (31 Mar 2022)

Baby boomer said:


> Look, it's possible to be technically correct and yet misleading at the same time. It is correct to say that the ID3 and the Passat have similar wheelbases. However, when that is used to assert that they are similar category vehicles, it becomes misleading.


At this point I presume you will admit to attempting to mislead given your repeated misstatement of the original point?


----------



## Baby boomer (7 Apr 2022)

I test-drove the all-electric Hummer. Can it win over America’s EV skeptics?
					

A climate-friendly version of the macho, gas-guzzling pickup is aimed at obdurate devotees of US’s supersized car culture




					www.theguardian.com
				




Now, *that's* an EV to win over the sceptics.


----------



## galwegian44 (8 Apr 2022)

Leo said:


> I don't think it serves any real purpose to talk about the problems associated with a 200km range when there is no car currently on the market that is so limited. The Zoe is about the cheapest EV here and that has a 395km range.



Then check out the Mazda MX-30 with a quoted range of 200KM but the following caveat:

"The Mazda MX-30 range, like all EVs, is dependant on various factors such as individual driving style, speed, route profile, load, ambient temperature, and the use of components in the car that consume electricity (e.g. air conditioning, heated seats)."

I'm getting over the range issue slowly but my main issue is the lack of charging facilities on longer journeys. Whenever I pull in anywhere that has charging facilities I imagine I'm driving an electric car to get a feel for the experience. Recently I picked up my daughter in Dublin and pulled in to the Kilcullen Service Station to grab a McDonalds for her. I parked beside the charging units and we were there for about 35 minutes. All 4 units were in use during our time there so that's 35 minutes (minimum) waiting for a charger before sitting around for however long to charge the car on top of that. Struggling with the thought of this.


----------



## galwegian44 (8 Apr 2022)

AlbacoreA said:


> People who mostly fly to where they are going and rent a car.
> They just apply that same thinking to domestic holidays.


At Irish Car Rental prices?


----------



## galwegian44 (8 Apr 2022)

Blackrock1 said:


> If you compare the current selling price inclusive of grants etc v the EQUIVALENT ICE car from the same manufacturer most arent that much more expensive at all.


I'm driving a diesel 2.2l Mazda 6 which would cost €38k to replace new.

Where can I get a comparably priced EV please? 

I've procrastinated for 8 months now and change my mind daily between EV and ICE. The top 3 EV cars that I've tested and see as comparable are the VW ID4, Tesla Model 3, and Kia EV6. All are considerably more expensive. As soon as I convinced myself that it was a good idea to expand my budget to €54k, my thoughts and wandering eye turned to the BMW 3 Series hybrid.

Tomorrow, I will be on this thread advocating the purchase of an EV!!


----------



## Leo (8 Apr 2022)

galwegian44 said:


> Then check out the Mazda MX-30 with a quoted range of 200KM but the following caveat:


Seems a strange choice from Mazda to put that small a battery in that, can't see it selling all that well here.

EV & ICE ranges are always quoted with lots of caveats. I don't usually get within 25% of the quotes mileage of my current petrol car unless I significantly alter my driving. 



galwegian44 said:


> I'm getting over the range issue slowly but my main issue is the lack of charging facilities on longer journeys.


Yeah, certainly a mot more work to be done there before long journeys are a non-issue.


----------



## Leo (8 Apr 2022)

galwegian44 said:


> Tomorrow, I will be on this thread advocating the purchase of an EV!!


Unless you buy the hybrid, and then you will be convincing us all it;s the way to go


----------



## Blackrock1 (8 Apr 2022)

galwegian44 said:


> I'm driving a diesel 2.2l Mazda 6 which would cost €38k to replace new.
> 
> Where can I get a comparably priced EV please?
> 
> ...


If you asked me to compare the price of your Mazda 6 with an electric Mazda 6 then we could look at it, what i was referring to is comparing an ID4 to a Tiguan or an ID3 to a golf.


----------



## RetirementPlan (8 Apr 2022)

galwegian44 said:


> At Irish Car Rental prices?


Compare Irish car rental prices to Irish car purchase prices, Irish car insurance prices, Irish car maintenance prices and Irish car tax prices.


----------



## Itchy (8 Apr 2022)

Leo said:


> Seems a strange choice from Mazda to put that small a battery in that, can't see it selling all that well here.



As far as I recall, that was a deliberate strategy by Mazda. The high upfront cost of EV's is in the battery primarily. By reducing the size of the battery, they have reduced the upfront cost and lowered the emissions "breakeven" point for the car. But they have banked on people getting over the range anxiety of needing 600km range for their 50km daily commute   and also an extensive charging network which increases the utility of the car. To your point though, neither of those issues have meaningfully improved since its introduction.


----------



## galwegian44 (9 Apr 2022)

RetirementPlan said:


> Compare Irish car rental prices to Irish car purchase prices, Irish car insurance prices, Irish car maintenance prices and Irish car tax prices.


Fair point. I think I'm subject to a lot of behavioral psychology habits also which is setting the bar too high for what's available right now in the EV market, I believe in time it will be a no-brainer to switch to an EV.

But for now, my entrenched psychological traits are saying that my driving enjoyment will be diminished in a EV because:

1) I cannot find a comparable EV to replace my diesel Mazda 6 (comparable in price, driving enjoyment and feel good factor)
2) I'm reluctant to changing my driving style to plan my longer journeys, even if they only make up 5-10% of my trips
3) For those 5-10% of trips, I shudder at the thought of queuing for x minutes to sit and charge for 1 - 2 hours

It may not sound like it but I really want to buy an EV, I just want it on my terms. I'm at that stage where I'm thinking of downsizing the house and just realised that the smaller terrace houses and apartments that we've talked about are not suitable for home charging. So many aspects to be aware of to ensure the best decision. It's great to have this discussion with like-minded and non-like-minded (?) people, thanks Askaboutmoney.


----------



## Baby boomer (9 Apr 2022)

galwegian44 said:


> Fair point. I think I'm subject to a lot of behavioral psychology habits also which is setting the bar too high for what's available right now in the EV market, I believe in time it will be a no-brainer to switch to an EV.
> 
> But for now, my entrenched psychological traits are saying that my driving enjoyment will be diminished in a EV because:
> 
> ...


Excellent post.  You sum up the main issues at the moment with EVs - range and price.  Like you, I would love if these didn't exist, but they do, and no amount of pooh-poohing from the EV zealots will change that.  What will change it is:
1. when EVs drop in price to ICE levels and below 
2.  when range increases to a reliable 500km or so and you don't need an app to plan a journey.
These things should happen in the next 5 years or so.  When they do, EVs will become a no-brainer.  Just like LED lightbulbs have seen off CFLs and incandescent.  Until then, it is very hard to make the economics work, yet alone accept the hassle and grief of frequent and problematic recharging.


----------



## losttheplot (9 Apr 2022)

Baby boomer said:


> Excellent post.  You sum up the main issues at the moment with EVs - range and price.  Like you, I would love if these didn't exist, but they do, and no amount of pooh-poohing from the EV zealots will change that.  What will change it is:
> 1. when EVs drop in price to ICE levels and below
> 2.  when range increases to a reliable 500km or so and you don't need an app to plan a journey.
> These things should happen in the next 5 years or so.  When they do, EVs will become a no-brainer.  Just like LED lightbulbs have seen off CFLs and incandescent.  Until then, it is very hard to make the economics work, yet alone accept the hassle and grief of frequent and problematic recharging.


Or you could say he summed up the issues with 'entrenched psychological traits' rather than EVs.


----------



## galwegian44 (9 Apr 2022)

I'm not so sure about the EV prices dropping to the current ICE level as the car manufacturers have realised during the pandemic that chasing volume is not the best strategic goal of the business. VW have stated that they will not look to volume sales any more or strive to be the highest volume seller, but will rely on selling premium models with a higher margin. I see other car marques going down this route also, especially in an environment where materials are getting scarcer because of the geopoltiical situation (metal commodities) and the worldwide scarcity of semi-conductors, not to mention that supply chains have not recovered.

For anyone who listens to David McWilliams, on his recent podcasts on energy he states that diesel supply is in a more critical state than anyone is acknowledging, going so far as to say that the European governments are purposely not informing us as they don't want to cause a buying spree. His expectation is that we will run out of reserves in the summer and there will be an ensuing crash as transport fails and supply chains grind to a halt. Something to consider.

So today, I'm of the mindset that my next purchase will be an EV


----------



## Baby boomer (9 Apr 2022)

losttheplot said:


> Or you could say he summed up the issues with 'entrenched psychological traits' rather than EVs.


Hmmm.  I like getting good value for money and I like products that are flexible, versatile and meet all my needs.  If that be your idea of "entrenched psychological traits" then I will happily plead guilty as charged.  

On the other hand, my idea of "entrenched psychological traits" would include a stubborn refusal to realise that paying a 50% price premium for a product with restricted functionality might not really be a good idea.  I think the appropriate psychological term is *denial*.


----------



## losttheplot (9 Apr 2022)

Baby boomer said:


> Hmmm.  I like getting good value for money and I like products that are flexible, versatile and meet all my needs.  If that be your idea of "entrenched psychological traits" then I will happily plead guilty as charged.
> 
> On the other hand, my idea of "entrenched psychological traits" would include a stubborn refusal to realise that paying a 50% price premium for a product with restricted functionality might not really be a good idea.  I think the appropriate psychological term is *denial*.


I think it all has to be looked at case by case. If an EV doesn't meet your needs then it doesn't.
There are some people who's needs it would meet but they're put off by the hype about range etc.


----------



## Baby boomer (9 Apr 2022)

losttheplot said:


> I think it all has to be looked at case by case. If an EV doesn't meet your needs then it doesn't.
> There are some people who's needs it would meet but they're put off by the hype about range etc.


It's hardly "hype" if it's a real issue.  The price premium is a fact.  Limited range is a fact.  Sure, there are people who rarely if ever venture beyond their EV's range, and for those it's ideal.  Their fuel cost savings may even cancel out the EV price premium in certain circumstances.  If you have, say, a 150km daily commute, then you're hitting the EV sweet spot in terms of maximizing fuel savings.  If your mileage is very low, then the cost savings won't compensate you for the increased capital cost, and likely enhanced depreciation as EV technology improves in capacity and drops in price.  And if you regularly exceed the EV range, well, you've got all the problems of finding working charge points and the lack of flexibility and time penalties that go with the current generation of EVs.  

I'm just applying standard askaboutmoney principles of cost benefit analysis before committing to a large capital cost!  Ignoring this because of a desire for sustainability or whatever may well induce a warm virtuous glow but, don't kid yourself, it'll be a hell of an expensive glow!


----------



## Blackrock1 (9 Apr 2022)

galwegian44 said:


> Fair point. I think I'm subject to a lot of behavioral psychology habits also which is setting the bar too high for what's available right now in the EV market, I believe in time it will be a no-brainer to switch to an EV.
> 
> But for now, my entrenched psychological traits are saying that my driving enjoyment will be diminished in a EV because:
> 
> ...


I have never queued at a charger and the fast charge takes 30-45 min depending on how much you need, so your fear is a little misplaced.

As for finding an ev that compares to your Mazda 6 price might be an issue but enjoyment performance and feel good factor won’t be an issue in comparison to a diesel.


----------



## Blackrock1 (9 Apr 2022)

Baby boomer said:


> It's hardly "hype" if it's a real issue.  The price premium is a fact.  Limited range is a fact.  Sure, there are people who rarely if ever venture beyond their EV's range, and for those it's ideal.  Their fuel cost savings may even cancel out the EV price premium in certain circumstances.  If you have, say, a 150km daily commute, then you're hitting the EV sweet spot in terms of maximizing fuel savings.  If your mileage is very low, then the cost savings won't compensate you for the increased capital cost, and likely enhanced depreciation as EV technology improves in capacity and drops in price.  And if you regularly exceed the EV range, well, you've got all the problems of finding working charge points and the lack of flexibility and time penalties that go with the current generation of EVs.
> 
> I'm just applying standard askaboutmoney principles of cost benefit analysis before committing to a large capital cost!  Ignoring this because of a desire for sustainability or whatever may well induce a warm virtuous glow but, don't kid yourself, it'll be a hell of an expensive glow!


If you are buying a new car it’s expensive, a new ev will cost less over its life than the equivalent new ice in a lot of cases.


----------



## Blackrock1 (9 Apr 2022)

Oh and someone with real world experience who challenges your misconceptions isn’t a zealot.


----------



## Baby boomer (9 Apr 2022)

Blackrock1 said:


> If you are buying a new car it’s expensive, a new ev will cost less over its life than the equivalent new ice in a lot of cases.


I'm all ears!  Do you have a reference for that?  I've seen lots of ads/publicity blurbs for EVs that major on vague concepts like sustainability, environmental friendliness and nice design.  Know what I haven't seen?  A detailed side by side comparison of all costs over a vehicle's lifespan.  And such comparisons as I have seen tend to ignore the time value of money by equating increased capital cost today with reduced running costs in later years, and forgetting to include the cost of capital - either real cost or opportunity cost.  



Blackrock1 said:


> Oh and someone with real world experience who challenges your misconceptions isn’t a zealot.


No, but someone who insists that range anxiety is an illusion is exhibiting zealot like tendencies!   I'll believe that range anxiety is over when EV owners stop swapping tips and stories about how to plan their journeys around charging points.


----------



## galwegian44 (9 Apr 2022)

Blackrock1 said:


> I have never queued at a charger and the fast charge takes 30-45 min depending on how much you need, so your fear is a little misplaced.
> 
> As for finding an ev that compares to your Mazda 6 price might be an issue but enjoyment performance and feel good factor won’t be an issue in comparison to a diesel.


Agreed on the enjoyment performance and feel good factor - I have no reservations there. Still have an issue with the 30-45 minutes charging time and my experience with queuing is a little different and my expectation is that the infrastructure development will lag the sales of EV's so my expectation is that this will get worse.

But I did sit in a Tesla Model 3 today, unfortunately did not drive it and I was very impressed.....but again €54k for the cheapest model with a 7 month waiting list, not even the 'fart' option bridges that gap!


----------



## losttheplot (9 Apr 2022)

@Baby boomer I think you've convinced us all that you're not ready for an EV yet and that's your decision and suits your needs.
I've had an EV for 3 years and it's been trouble free. I know others the same. I also know people who'd forget to put shoes on leaving the house, an EV would be a disaster for them.
The choice is down to an individual's needs.


----------



## Baby boomer (9 Apr 2022)

losttheplot said:


> @Baby boomer I think you've convinced us all that you're not ready for an EV yet


It's more the case that EVs haven't evolved to the point where they're ready for me!



losttheplot said:


> and that's your decision and suits your needs.


Fair enough.  What annoys me though are the evangelicals who insist that we ALL need to go electric ASAP.



losttheplot said:


> I've had an EV for 3 years and it's been trouble free.


And so it should!  As any new vehicle should be.



losttheplot said:


> I know others the same. I also know people who'd forget to put shoes on leaving the house, an EV would be a disaster for them.


Or for the many people who regularly make long journeys and don't fancy enforced sojourns in filling station forecourts. 



losttheplot said:


> The choice is down to an individual's needs.


My point exactly.  When EVs meet my needs at a competitive price, happy days, I'm on board!  Until then, people telling me range anxiety isn't real aren't really impressing.


----------



## PGF2016 (9 Apr 2022)

Baby boomer said:


> No, but someone who insists that range anxiety is an illusion is exhibiting zealot like tendencies!


No one on this thread thinks that. As has been pointed out to you before.


Baby boomer said:


> What annoys me though are the evangelicals who insist that we ALL need to go electric ASAP.


Again, no one on this thread.


----------



## Blackrock1 (10 Apr 2022)

Baby boomer said:


> I'm all ears!  Do you have a reference for that?  I've seen lots of ads/publicity blurbs for EVs that major on vague concepts like sustainability, environmental friendliness and nice design.  Know what I haven't seen?  A detailed side by side comparison of all costs over a vehicle's lifespan.  And such comparisons as I have seen tend to ignore the time value of money by equating increased capital cost today with reduced running costs in later years, and forgetting to include the cost of capital - either real cost or opportunity cost.
> 
> 
> No, but someone who insists that range anxiety is an illusion is exhibiting zealot like tendencies!   I'll believe that range anxiety is over when EV owners stop swapping tips and stories about how to plan their journeys around charging points.











						SEAI Car Comparison
					

Want to know the cost of running an electric car? Compare the range of electric vehicles in Ireland to see how much you can save in costs and emissions.




					www.seai.ie


----------



## Blackrock1 (10 Apr 2022)

Baby boomer said:


> It's more the case that EVs haven't evolved to the point where they're ready for me!
> 
> 
> Fair enough.  What annoys me though are the evangelicals who insist that we ALL need to go electric ASAP.
> ...


As an owner of an ice car you will spend far more time in a forecourt than I will.


----------



## Baby boomer (10 Apr 2022)

Blackrock1 said:


> As an owner of an ice car you will spend far more time in a forecourt than I will.


That's an apples V oranges comparison!  If I were the owner of an EV I would spend vastly more time in forecourts than I do now with my ICE.  That's because I do a lot of long distance driving.  
YMMV.


----------



## losttheplot (10 Apr 2022)

Imagine having your own diesel pump at home that cost about 1/4 the price of filling station diesel. Most wouldn't forget to refuel at home.


----------



## Baby boomer (10 Apr 2022)

Blackrock1 said:


> SEAI Car Comparison
> 
> 
> Want to know the cost of running an electric car? Compare the range of electric vehicles in Ireland to see how much you can save in costs and emissions.
> ...


Not exactly a sophisticated piece of work, I have to say.  It makes the basic error of ignoring the time value of money, equating a Euro spent in year 1 with a Euro saved in year 10.  No allowance for cost of capital at all.  Assumes *ALL* EV charging is done at the night rate cost of 9.5c, including VAT, per kWh!
And that's just off the top of my head having had a quick look; I'm sure there are other dubious methodologies if you drill deeper.  Which you can't really, because it doesn't show it's working out in any level of easily accessible detail.

Plus, of course, the SEAI's role is to encourage the use of EVs so they're not exactly unbiased assessors!  I've looked at some similar UK studies and the general consensus appears to be that you have to own your EV for a LONG time before its TCO (Total Cost of Ownership) falls below that of an equivalent ICE.  Consumer advocate group, Which, who are generally highly regarded for their independence, put it as follows:
_"Our pricing research shows that buying an electric car doesn’t necessarily guarantee you’ll save money in the long run. Yes, you’ll pay less for fuel each year, but the high price of purchase makes that all but redundant."_

Read more: https://www.which.co.uk/news/2021/0...ectric-cars-could-push-more-people-to-petrol/ - Which?

moneysupermarket.co.uk came to a similar conclusion, finding that the TCO for petrol vehicles was *less* than that for equivalent EVs when looked at over a six year period.


Autoexpress.co.uk put it like this:_ "The average total cost of buying a new electric car in 2020 and driving it for just under 14 years - the average lifespan of a car - has been calculated as £52,133. Doing the same with a petrol-powered model would cost £53,625."  _I'll just point out our that 14 years is a lllllloooooonnnnngggggg payback time for miniscule savings of about 2%.
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/352747/electric-cars-are-cheaper-own-petrol-cars

Obviously, UK and Irish costs are not like for like, particularly the uniquely Irish imposition of VRT, but they're not that hugely dissimilar.  I would say the case for EVs having a lower TCO is unproven at best. 

It would be interesting to see some detailed and robust Irish studies on TCO for EVs and ICE.


----------



## Baby boomer (10 Apr 2022)

losttheplot said:


> Imagine having your own diesel pump at home that cost about 1/4 the price of filling station diesel. Most wouldn't forget to refuel at home.


Apparently that's quite common in certain parts of the country!!


----------



## Clamball (10 Apr 2022)

Blackrock1 said:


> SEAI Car Comparison
> 
> 
> Want to know the cost of running an electric car? Compare the range of electric vehicles in Ireland to see how much you can save in costs and emissions.
> ...



The price comparison is not very clear.  I decided to pop in my hyaundi i30 versus the hyaundi Ioniq3.   Comparison

It tells me the price of the EV is €40K versus €45K for the i30.  But I know I purchased my i30 for €23K, 3 years ago and so I checked out my dealers website and they list the new i30 at €29K so maybe I am not comparing like with like here.  There was a * next the price so I am unsure what that means. 

The SEAI website says total cost of ownership is €40K for the EV and €83K for the i30.   And the calculation is  Price + (Annual Energy Costs + Tax + Maintenance) x lifespan) - SEAI Grant - VRT reduction

So for my i30 it would be €23K+((75x52 diesel a week) + 290Tax+400insurance+700 service and repair+NCT+Tyres) x 10 years lifespan.   That gives me €23K+(5290 x 10), so €76K total over 10 years.  

And for the Ioniq3 it is €40K+(227+290+400+600)x 10. That gives €40K+(1517x 10),  So €55K total over 10 years.  I have not added the grant or the vrt rebate because I don’t know how much they are. 

So €2K saving a year to go EV for me.   But maybe I have too many assumptions in my calculations, I am comparing my car cost 2.5 years ago to new today, I am not sure if I do spend €75 a week on diesel, not sure of tax costs on EV or annual repairs, service or nct, or tyres etc.  But having done the calculations I would be very tempted the next time I change my car.  And yes I do, long trips (cork-Dublin return tomorrow, cork -Tipperary return Tuesday) so range would worry me a bit, but €4 a week electricity cost is very good value.


----------



## Clamball (10 Apr 2022)

Baby boomer said:


> Not exactly a sophisticated piece of work, I have to say.  It makes the basic error of ignoring the time value of money, equating a Euro spent in year 1 with a Euro saved in year 10.  No allowance for cost of capital at all





Baby boomer said:


> _"Our pricing research shows that buying an electric car doesn’t necessarily guarantee you’ll save money in the long run. Yes, you’ll pay less for fuel each year, but the high price of purchase makes that all but redundant."_
> 
> Read more: https://www.which.co.uk/news/2021/0...ectric-cars-could-push-more-people-to-petrol/ - Which?
> 
> ...


Thanks, lots more reading to do, time value of money and lifespan are very worthwhile considering.


----------



## Blackrock1 (10 Apr 2022)

Clamball said:


> The price comparison is not very clear.  I decided to pop in my hyaundi i30 versus the hyaundi Ioniq3.   Comparison
> 
> It tells me the price of the EV is €40K versus €45K for the i30.  But I know I purchased my i30 for €23K, 3 years ago and so I checked out my dealers website and they list the new i30 at €29K so maybe I am not comparing like with like here.  There was a * next the price so I am unsure what that means.
> 
> ...


I presume they are comparing equivalent models so perhaps the i30 with the same spec and engine output as the ioniq costs 45k?


----------



## Blackrock1 (10 Apr 2022)

Baby boomer said:


> Not exactly a sophisticated piece of work, I have to say.  It makes the basic error of ignoring the time value of money, equating a Euro spent in year 1 with a Euro saved in year 10.  No allowance for cost of capital at all.  Assumes *ALL* EV charging is done at the night rate cost of 9.5c, including VAT, per kWh!
> And that's just off the top of my head having had a quick look; I'm sure there are other dubious methodologies if you drill deeper.  Which you can't really, because it doesn't show it's working out in any level of easily accessible detail.
> 
> Plus, of course, the SEAI's role is to encourage the use of EVs so they're not exactly unbiased assessors!  I've looked at some similar UK studies and the general consensus appears to be that you have to own your EV for a LONG time before its TCO (Total Cost of Ownership) falls below that of an equivalent ICE.  Consumer advocate group, Which, who are generally highly regarded for their independence, put it as follows:
> ...


Maybe you should do as you appear to have all the answers!

And all my charging is at night rate so yeay for me.


----------



## Blackrock1 (10 Apr 2022)

And by the way the articles you linked aren’t amazing pieces of work either, the money supermarket isn’t taking specific models just comparing in generalities, hard to see if it’s a fair comparison.


----------



## Blackrock1 (10 Apr 2022)

Anyway as I’ve said before buying a new car is expensive whatever way you do it, the cheapest thing to do is keep the car you have or buy a 10 year old ice car. If you are buying a new car based on most studies the TCO of an ev is less or equivalent to an equivalent petrol so cost isn’t a reason not to.


----------



## Baby boomer (10 Apr 2022)

Blackrock1 said:


> Maybe you should do as you appear to have all the answers!


I don't!  I'm merely making the point that the answer is far from clear.



Blackrock1 said:


> And all my charging is at night rate so yeay for me.


Indeed, good for you!  That does appear to restrict you to a radius of 50% of your EVs range, though.  And in practice, somewhat less than that to allow for a bit of variation in driving style, use of heater or AC, cold weather, carrying luggage etc etc.  If that's your requirement, and your EV fulfils it, great.  My requirements are different and there's no way I could avoid recharging away from my home. 



Blackrock1 said:


> And by the way the articles you linked aren’t amazing pieces of work either, the money supermarket isn’t taking specific models just comparing in generalities, hard to see if it’s a fair comparison.


Indeed, I'd agree.  But doesn't that raise its own question?  If EVs are all the rage (and they are) and there's tremendous government and industry pressure to go electric (and there is) isn't it a little bit, well, odd that it's so hard to find a comprehensive robust analysis that shows definitively that the TCO for EVs beats ICE for most drivers????



Blackrock1 said:


> Anyway as I’ve said before buying a new car is expensive whatever way you do it, the cheapest thing to do is keep the car you have or buy a 10 year old ice car. If you are buying a new car based on most studies the TCO of an ev is less or equivalent to an equivalent petrol so cost isn’t a reason not to.


Not quite sure about these "most studies" you speak of.   I'd like to see an example of such a study with clear robust methodology and reasonable assumptions.  Given that the existence of such studies would be a huge marketing coup for the EV industry, the apparent absence of such studies allows us to draw appropriate inferences, does it not?


----------



## Blackrock1 (10 Apr 2022)

Baby boomer said:


> I don't!  I'm merely making the point that the answer is far from clear.
> 
> 
> Indeed, good for you!  That does appear to restrict you to a radius of 50% of your EVs range, though.  And in practice, somewhat less than that to allow for a bit of variation in driving style, use of heater or AC, cold weather, carrying luggage etc etc.  If that's your requirement, and your EV fulfils it, great.  My requirements are different and there's no way I could avoid recharging away from my home.
> ...


You will poke holes with any study because it doesn’t reflect your use case . Have you got a robust study that proves the opposite?


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## Baby boomer (10 Apr 2022)

Blackrock1 said:


> You will poke holes with any study because it doesn’t reflect your use case . Have you got a robust study that proves the opposite?


Ah here now, the internet doesn't work like that!  *You* made the definitive claim that _*"...based on most studies the TCO of an ev is less or equivalent to an equivalent petrol..." *_so the proposition is all yours to prove rather than mine to disprove.

I merely said that I'd like to see an example of such a study.  And that the absence of same being trumpeted from the rooftops by the EV industry leads one in a particular direction - that the economic case for EVs is unproven and marginal at best.


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## Introuble83 (10 Apr 2022)

Leo said:


> That's the thing with purchases like cars where the heart often plays a bigger role than the head. If everyone was to do the maths, most would end up owning something like Fiat 500s or not buying one at all. I'm not sure what formula would spit out the Hyundai Tucson as the logical choice, but that was the best selling car here last year.
> 
> People also like to have flexibility and so put a value on that. The premium for an ~80kWh battery over a ~60kWh one is ~€7k, some people would consider that well worthwhile for an additional 30% of range.


Bought my wife a fiat 500 hybrid the weekend . She is only ever in the car alone . We have a larger mpv for weekends . She loves it . Great little car


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## Blackrock1 (10 Apr 2022)

Baby boomer said:


> Ah here now, the internet doesn't work like that!  *You* made the definitive claim that _*"...based on most studies the TCO of an ev is less or equivalent to an equivalent petrol..." *_so the proposition is all yours to prove rather than mine to disprove.
> 
> I merely said that I'd like to see an example of such a study.  And that the absence of same being trumpeted from the rooftops by the EV industry leads one in a particular direction - that the economic case for EVs is unproven and marginal at best.


I’ve shared different sources with you, even some you have quoted make the same claim, you don’t like any of them, 

Present something that proves the contrary then.


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## Baby boomer (10 Apr 2022)

Blackrock1 said:


> I’ve shared different sources with you, even some you have quoted make the same claim, you don’t like any of them,


Unless I've missed something (always possible in a long thread, and if so I apologize) you've shared exactly ONE source, that being the SEAI comparison site.  

I've referred to three, all of which are flawed in their own way, but are fairly representative of UK studies that you can easily find online.  



Blackrock1 said:


> Present something that proves the contrary then.


  It's utterly pointless and unreasonable of you to demand that I should somehow disprove your contention that EVs have a lower TCO. You made the claim; you prove it! If there were definitive, robust studies with sound methodologies, this would be a settled issue and would be beyond argument one way or another. It isn't though, is it? And that speaks volumes.


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## Blackrock1 (11 Apr 2022)

Baby boomer said:


> Unless I've missed something (always possible in a long thread, and if so I apologize) you've shared exactly ONE source, that being the SEAI comparison site.
> 
> I've referred to three, all of which are flawed in their own way, but are fairly representative of UK studies that you can easily find online.
> 
> ...


It pointless and unreasonable to poo poo everything without offering evidence to the contrary aswell but we are where we are.

Here is someone comparing comparable cars , id3 v the golf . They even provide spreadsheets for you to put your own assumptions into 









						Volkswagen ID.3 vs. Volkswagen Golf — 5 Year Cost of Ownership Comparisons
					

Tagging onto my article from yesterday on Volkswagen ID.3 cost of ownership versus cost of ownership of the Renault Megane or Skoda Octavia, here's a brief followup for perhaps a more common comparison vehicle — the Volkswagen Golf.




					cleantechnica.com


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## PGF2016 (11 Apr 2022)

Baby boomer said:


> I merely said that I'd like to see an example of such a study.  And that the absence of same being trumpeted from the rooftops by the EV industry leads one in a particular direction - that the economic case for EVs is unproven and marginal at best.


I don't have a study but always think the taxi industry is good to observe. Taxi drivers are better than the general public at choosing reliable and economical cars (e.g. there are more Prius and less Alfa Romeos as taxis than in the general population). And it looks to me as though the taxis are moving towards EVs.  

And yes, there are incentives involved.


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## Purple (11 Apr 2022)

Baby boomer said:


> Unless I've missed something (always possible in a long thread, and if so I apologize) you've shared exactly ONE source, that being the SEAI comparison site.
> 
> I've referred to three, all of which are flawed in their own way, but are fairly representative of UK studies that you can easily find online.
> 
> ...


It's very hard to do detailed like for like studies since driving style etc has a material impact on fuel economy. 
It is reasonable to say that EV's are cheaper to run that ICE vehicles. The cost per Km travelled for fuel is lower and the cost of service is lower. It's also beyond doubt that the pollution generated in use is far lower.
It is unclear just how green the manufacturing process is for EV's and how much lower the real lifetime carbon footprint is but it's certainly lower that ICE cars. 
This thread is about range anxiety. That's still a real factor for many people, as is cost. It's also beyond doubt that if you do very low mileage the greenest thing to do is to hold on to your existing ICE car.


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## Baby boomer (11 Apr 2022)

Blackrock1 said:


> It pointless and unreasonable to poo poo everything without offering evidence to the contrary aswell but we are where we are.
> 
> Here is someone comparing comparable cars , id3 v the golf . They even provide spreadsheets for you to put your own assumptions into
> 
> ...


That's actually a very interesting article, the guy does his homework, I'll grant you that.  And his figures and assumptions seem reasonable.  He also makes the point that battery range and price are on constantly improving curves, and therefore the EV of 5 years from now will be a significantly better (and cheaper) product than today's EV.  In my opinion, this makes an EV a very dodgy investment right now.

BTW I'm glad you accept that the ID3 is comparable to the Golf.  It doesn't seem all that long ago I was getting pilloried (by your good self?) for that exact claim while being told it was really comparable to a Passat!


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## Blackrock1 (11 Apr 2022)

Baby boomer said:


> That's actually a very interesting article, the guy does his homework, I'll grant you that.  And his figures and assumptions seem reasonable.  He also makes the point that battery range and price are on constantly improving curves, and therefore the EV of 5 years from now will be a significantly better (and cheaper) product than today's EV.  In my opinion, this makes an EV a very dodgy investment right now.
> 
> BTW I'm glad you accept that the ID3 is comparable to the Golf.  It doesn't seem all that long ago I was getting pilloried (by your good self?) for that exact claim while being told it was really comparable to a Passat!



i stand by what i said, and you know what i said. In terms of price and external dimensions the Golf and the ID3 are similar cars.
The internal space for passengers in the ID3 is equvalent to a passat, thats from the horses mouth not me.

You are continuing to move the goal posts once you receive what you asked for which would make me question your bona fides in this debate.


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## PGF2016 (11 Apr 2022)

Baby boomer said:


> He also makes the point that battery range and price are on constantly improving curves, and therefore the EV of 5 years from now will be a significantly better (and cheaper) product than today's EV. In my opinion, this makes an EV a very dodgy investment right now.


So if you're investing in a car now which fuel is not a dodgy investment? Consider that as things stand EVs are holding their value better than ICE. And that includes 3/4/5 year old EVs.


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## Baby boomer (11 Apr 2022)

PGF2016 said:


> So if you're investing in a car now which fuel is not a dodgy investment?


Good question!  The basic problem is that we are on the cusp of game-changing new technology in the motor industry.   As with any new technology, there is an early-adopter penalty if you buy in too soon.  But equally, there's issues if you stick with the older technology.  Petrol and diesel are going out of fashion, the manufacturers can't ditch them soon enough, and both fuels and vehicles will probably be taxed into oblivion anyway by the enviro-zealots. That makes a new ICE purchase very risky in my view - who'll want it in 5 years time?  Possibly there's a viable strategy about buying new, or nearly new, now and holding for a decade or so until the EV market is mature.  The problem with that is the enviro-zealots again who will impose ever increasing fuel taxes and road taxes on vehicles they don't like.  

So, electric then?  Similar problem.  You pay 40k now, and in a few years, a better model with longer range is available for say 30k new.  That destroys your resale value.  

Throw into the mix the current worldwide shortage of new vehicles of all types and the corresponding dearth of used models coming on the market.  It really is the worst possible time to be in the market for a new set of wheels.  

Generally, I like to buy a quality car, nearly new, and hold for a decade or so.  That option doesn't really exist right now and my existing car is into its second decade and has over 250000 km on the clock.  So its days are limited.  Best solution I can come up with is a 5 - 7 year old ICE, run it until it wears out and by then the EV market should have sorted itself out just before the really penal taxation approach makes ICE completely unviable.



PGF2016 said:


> Consider that as things stand EVs are holding their value better than ICE. And that includes 3/4/5 year old EVs.


I'm sure you're right.  For the reasons above I expect that to change as EV technology improves in leaps and bounds.


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## Baby boomer (11 Apr 2022)

Blackrock1 said:


> i stand by what i said, and you know what i said. In terms of price and external dimensions the Golf and the ID3 are similar cars.


Indeed.  They occupy similar niches in the market.



Blackrock1 said:


> The internal space for passengers in the ID3 is equvalent to a passat, thats from the horses mouth not me.


There's two elements to internal space, cabin space for passengers and boot space for luggage.  The Passat is amply provided with both.  The id3 isn't.  You can only get Passat carrying capacity by sacrificing the rear seats!  They are not comparable!  



Blackrock1 said:


> You are continuing to move the goal posts once you receive what you asked for which would make me question your bona fides in this debate.


I am utterly consistent.  My point is we are being encouraged to adopt an immature technology which undoubtedly holds great promise, but still has major problems with price and range.


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## dereko1969 (11 Apr 2022)

@babyboomer
EV Industry - is that not the same as the ICE Industry - apart from TESLA which car companies are not doing ICE?
Enviro-Zealots - name-calling really just shows the paucity of your "thinking".
You seem to think that your driving is typical of everyone or the vast majority, it is not. 
EVs are not for everyone, you seem to think you're being forced to buy an EV now, you're not.


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## losttheplot (11 Apr 2022)

Instead of resale value look at cost to change. If EVs see a significant price drop, resale value may drop but cost of changing probably won't.
When the price does drop the grants and VRT will probably change to cancel the drop out.


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## Blackrock1 (11 Apr 2022)

Baby boomer said:


> Good question!  The basic problem is that we are on the cusp of game-changing new technology in the motor industry.   As with any new technology, there is an early-adopter penalty if you buy in too soon.  But equally, there's issues if you stick with the older technology.  Petrol and diesel are going out of fashion, the manufacturers can't ditch them soon enough, and both fuels and vehicles will probably be taxed into oblivion anyway by the enviro-zealots. That makes a new ICE purchase very risky in my view - who'll want it in 5 years time?  Possibly there's a viable strategy about buying new, or nearly new, now and holding for a decade or so until the EV market is mature.  The problem with that is the enviro-zealots again who will impose ever increasing fuel taxes and road taxes on vehicles they don't like.
> 
> So, electric then?  Similar problem.  You pay 40k now, and in a few years, a better model with longer range is available for say 30k new.  That destroys your resale value.
> 
> ...


you are very naive if you think car manufacturers will bring out new models in a few years that have longer range and are 'better' (whatever you mean by that) for 25% less than a current model.


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## Blackrock1 (11 Apr 2022)

Baby boomer said:


> There's two elements to internal space, cabin space for passengers and boot space for luggage.  The Passat is amply provided with both.  The id3 isn't.  You can only get Passat carrying capacity by sacrificing the rear seats!  They are not comparable!


take it up with VW, the core point is that the passengers inside an ID3 have the same interior space as a passat, maybe the inanimate objects they carry with them dont but that wasnt the point made.

if you want the extra boot space get an id4 which is built off the same platform and has the same wheelbase as the ID3.


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## Baby boomer (11 Apr 2022)

Blackrock1 said:


> you are very naive if you think car manufacturers will bring out new models in a few years that have longer range and are 'better' (whatever you mean by that) for 25% less than a current model.


And I presume you wrote that post on your trusty Commodore 64 and connected to askaboutmoney with a 300 baud dialup modem?


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## Blackrock1 (11 Apr 2022)

Baby boomer said:


> And I presume you wrote that post on your trusty Commodore 64 and connected to askaboutmoney with a 300 baud dialup modem?



Thats a stupid analogy. it only serves to highlight you dont see EVs as cars, rather appliances.

Cars havent gotten any cheaper over the past 25 years despite all the changes and improvements.









						Car buyers getting 'more for their money': New car prices have risen by less than inflation for 25 years - but petrol and insurance have rocketed
					

The average price of a new motor has risen from £12,207 in 1988 to £27,219 today, according to data from Auto Express.




					www.thisismoney.co.uk


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## Baby boomer (11 Apr 2022)

Blackrock1 said:


> take it up with VW, the core point is that the passengers inside an ID3 have the same interior space as a passat, maybe the inanimate objects they carry with them dont but that wasnt the point made.


It was actually.  The point being made was that the id3 was comparable to a Passat.  We now agree it isn't, and the appropriate comparitor is the Golf.



Blackrock1 said:


> if you want the extra boot space get an id4 which is built off the same platform and has the same wheelbase as the ID3.


Hmmm, starting at 50k+ *after the grant*, and that's for the smaller battery size?  I don't think so.


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## PGF2016 (11 Apr 2022)

Baby boomer said:


> The point being made was that the id3 was comparable to a Passat.  We now agree it isn't, and the appropriate comparitor is the Golf.


That's not the point that was being made. Here is the original post:


Blackrock1 said:


> Also remember most evs have more space inside (especially purpose built ones) than the equivalent ICE car, i think VW claim that the ID3 is passat sized inside.


Note the word 'inside'. It's used twice in the comment.


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## Baby boomer (11 Apr 2022)

Blackrock1 said:


> Thats a stupid analogy. it only serves to highlight you dont see EVs as cars, rather appliances.


The battery is the major component of the cost of an EV.  Batteries have improved in capacity and dropped in price significantly over the last decade.  This is expected to continue.  Moore's law it isn't, but there is an improving price/performance curve that would be foolish to deny.  That's got to feed into EV prices.  And just about every car maker is claiming that EVs will shortly (5 years or so) be cheaper to manufacture than ICE. That's apart altogether from the possibility of any step change in battery technology that might be around the corner. 



Blackrock1 said:


> Cars havent gotten any cheaper over the past 25 years despite all the changes and improvements.


Cheaper?  Probably not, but far far better.  So more bang for your buck.



Blackrock1 said:


> Car buyers getting 'more for their money': New car prices have risen by less than inflation for 25 years - but petrol and insurance have rocketed
> 
> 
> The average price of a new motor has risen from £12,207 in 1988 to £27,219 today, according to data from Auto Express.
> ...


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## Baby boomer (11 Apr 2022)

PGF2016 said:


> That's not the point that was being made. Here is the original post:
> 
> Note the word 'inside'. It's used twice in the comment.


The boot is *inside* the car, is it not?


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## Blackrock1 (11 Apr 2022)

Baby boomer said:


> The battery is the major component of the cost of an EV.  Batteries have improved in capacity and dropped in price significantly over the last decade.  This is expected to continue.  Moore's law it isn't, but there is an improving price/performance curve that would be foolish to deny.  That's got to feed into EV prices.  And just about every car maker is claiming that EVs will shortly (5 years or so) be cheaper to manufacture than ICE. That's apart altogether from the possibility of any step change in battery technology that might be around the corner.
> 
> 
> Cheaper?  Probably not, but far far better.  So more bang for your buck.


You said 25% cheaper, there is no precedent for this, it is very unlikely to happen. The assumption that cheaper costs of production will lead to a cheaper end cost is naive. People are used to paying a certain price for cars, manufacturers will be loath to move away from that.


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## Blackrock1 (11 Apr 2022)

Baby boomer said:


> The boot is *inside* the car, is it not?


you knew what was meant but i think your agenda is clear to see now.


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## Baby boomer (11 Apr 2022)

Blackrock1 said:


> you knew what was meant but i think your agenda is clear to see now.


You're seeing agendas everywhere.  My agenda is simple - I want the most cost effective and comfortable motoring possible.


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## Blackrock1 (11 Apr 2022)

Baby boomer said:


> You're seeing agendas everywhere.  My agenda is simple - I want the most cost effective and comfortable motoring possible.


And you landed on a Passat?


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## Baby boomer (11 Apr 2022)

Blackrock1 said:


> And you landed on a Passat?


I'm tall, built proportionately, and did extensive motorway driving before I retired.  It's a comfy, well-specced, reliable armchair on wheels that met my needs perfectly.


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## Blackrock1 (11 Apr 2022)

Baby boomer said:


> I'm tall, built proportionately, and did extensive motorway driving before I retired.  It's a comfy, well-specced, reliable armchair on wheels that met my needs perfectly.


It’s a relatively reliable mile muncher but the last word in comfort or refinement it definitely isn’t !


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## Brendan Burgess (11 Apr 2022)

Lads, we might have to ban the discussion of EVs as we don't seem to be able to have an adult discussion about them.

Brendan


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