# Do I have grounds to pull out



## dub1 (10 Oct 2008)

I'm hoping thst I can get some advice with a major problem that I am having with the house that I have bought. I put the initial deposit down in February. I was told that it was almost ready at that stage. It was in actual fact not. Things went on for a number of months. I was then told 6 weeks or so ago thby the builder that I was to snag or he would put matters into the handsof his solicitor. At this stage the kitchen was only half in and the electrics were not finished etc. He basically forced me to snag. I got a structural engineer in. His report showed up a number of extremely serious issues. One of which was dampness throughout the whole building. Apparently the builder cut some major corners. He put a costing to rectify this and the other issues at approx €40k--€50k. That was 4 weeks ago and I have heard nothing from the builder at all. I have been to the house a few times and it doesent look like the place has been touched in weeks. I met with my solicitor who is very concerned and sent their solicitor a letter last week asking for access to the site for him, myself and the engineer. He has heard nothing since. He is reluctant to go into much detal about pulling out at this stage. Does anyone know how I might stand here. My own opinion is that the builder is not in a great financial position and may not have the funds to carry out this work. I have heard through the grapevine that he owes money left, right and centre.I have paid a €54k deposit. This money is still with the builders solicitor. Any advice would be appreciated


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## mad m (14 Oct 2008)

*Re: Do I have grounds to npull out*

Cmon, 40-50k to get the house right because of dampness and its a new house!!!! Try as much as possible to get deposit back.....Mercantile quality and all that...

As you might know if you signed contracts and paid a deposit then it might be hard for you to get it back, but if you have the engineers report and go to court then who knows what could happen.....


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## Towger (14 Oct 2008)

*Re: Do I have grounds to npull out*

Dub1 is right, the builder may not have the money. I know of one who left his subbies unpaid and now has two bodyguards to keep them at bay.


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## Askar (14 Oct 2008)

*Re: Do I have grounds to npull out*



Towger said:


> Dub1 is right, the builder may not have the money. I know of one who left his subbies unpaid and now has two bodyguards to keep them at bay.


 

What happens when he cant pay the bodyguards?


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## Towger (14 Oct 2008)

*Re: Do I have grounds to npull out*



Askar said:


> What happens when he cant pay the bodyguards?


 
I don't think that will be a problem for this builder...


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## dub1 (19 Oct 2008)

I know that his solicitor still has the deposit that I paid as I got my solicitor to check this. To be honest I either think that he does not have the money to fix this problem or else he is not sure what to do. My solicitor finally got hold of his last Thursday. They said that they were working on the problems but I know that they arent because I've been down to the house. They want my structural engineer to meet with their architecht to go through the problems. I think that they will look to my engineer to suggest solutions and will probably look for some kind of comprimise. It'll be months before its sorted. My engineer also thinks that Homebond may not give their guarantee either. I wonder how Homebond would feel if they knew that there may be the same sort of problems in the other 11 properties that they have already guaranteed???. At this stage I either want it fixed now or I want out so that I can find somewhere else. It's driving me crazy


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## mercman (20 Oct 2008)

You have commited to puchase a completed property. Why should you go to the expense of having you and your engineer agree a compromise with the builder's architect. You were asked to snag the property. This you did. Unless the matters are sorted I wouldn't accept anything less, unless he wants to reduce the price enough for you to complete the work with your own builder. It really is up to your solicitor to act on your behalf and not to have to listen to such petty excuses.


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## Maximus152 (20 Oct 2008)

"He put a costing to rectify this and the other issues at approx €40k--€50k" what are you talking about here! If its a snag then its not a costing issue to you as you have already agreed a price, if the builder has to fork out 40-50 k to reduce dampness I think some one some where is saying more than thier prayers. To reduce dampness usually means drying out a house a few days and correcting the insulation/moisture membrane which is basically a small job, especailly if a new home. So I am confused as to the issue here!


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## mercman (20 Oct 2008)

The OP undertook the snag at the request of the Builder. He received a professional opinion and he would be crazy to accept anything else and at a lesser cost. No one has seen the extent of te dampness so it could be far worse than already mentioned. He has purchased a completed house, not a half finished ruin.


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## Maximus152 (20 Oct 2008)

mercman said:


> The OP undertook the snag at the request of the Builder. He received a professional opinion and he would be crazy to accept anything else and at a lesser cost. No one has seen the extent of te dampness so it could be far worse than already mentioned. He has purchased a completed house, not a half finished ruin.


 
This gets more confusing! OP was requested by the Builder thats a 1st. And he would be crazy to accept anything else and at a lesser cost, this makes no sense to me sorry, I thought you wanted to remedy the problem, all I am saying is this problem would not take 40 to 50 K no matter what way you slice it. You say "He has purchased a completed house, not a half finished ruin" but he says at the begining he put down a deposit and that the house was not finished i.e kitchen and so on. Look this just doesnt all add up for me lol I will leave it to you guys, I obviously am missing something (dont be rude!). 

Best of luck !


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## dub1 (20 Oct 2008)

I think it seems quite clear what the problems are and how it could cost this much to remedy. As far I am aware there is no moisure membrane installed(im fairly sure that is what the engineer said) and this is serious. Plus there are pools of water inside the doors and all windows when it rains. How the builder thought he was going to get away with this I dont know. At the end of the day its a structural engineer with over 20 years experience that i had look at it. I have to "believe" what he says. 

I was thinking today that what if say no to my engineer meeting their architecht. The reason im saying this is that at this stage ive lost all faith in this builder and property. I love it but would prefer to get out of the contract at this stage. I would say that they will look to my engineer for possible solutions. I really dont see why it should be up to him to provide this information anyway. I went down there again this evening and the place hasnt been touched from what I could see. Is there a time limit that can be put on the builder having to have the property finished from the time its snagged. I put my deposit down in February and there is an 18 month finish date in the contract. My solicitor dances around this question when i ask it and does not give me a definitive answer.


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## PaddyW (21 Oct 2008)

They should really build you a brand new house at this stage. These problems could haunt you over and over again. Barring that, pull out.


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## Bronte (21 Oct 2008)

Well your solicitor needs to give you a definitive answer on if you can pull out, only he can do that as it will be (should be) in the contract somewhere.  Also a new build that requires such serious work sounds like a house that will never be right and I would not compromise in any way with the builder.


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## dub1 (21 Oct 2008)

i just found out today that another purchaser(who has been living there over a year) has had terrible problems with water flowing in from her balcony, to the extent that seh has had to make an insurance claim for her flooring and has had an engineer do up a report regarding the problem. Apparently its a structural problem. She is now chasing the builder. It does not instill any confidence in me at all. I just feel that if I take this place on I'm going to have problems at some stage down the line.


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## extopia (21 Oct 2008)

That's clear enough so. Tell your solicitor how you feel and ask him to help you get out at the least cost.


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## dub1 (21 Oct 2008)

I'm going to tell the solicitor that I want to pull out tomorrow but I know the builder won't just concede and hand back the deposit. I just wish that there was something definate that I had to go on. To be honest my solicitor does not seem great at all. I can't seem to get a definate answer out of him at all. I'm sure there must be some kind of time frame regarding how long a builder has after snagging(considering that he forced us to snag) or that he has breached some building regulation, considering the fact that he said that the place was ready when it was far from it and he obviously tried to cut major corners. Does anyone know of a goodproactive slightly aggressive(if thats the right word) solicitor who will really fight your corner for you???That may be the difference between me getting out of this contract and not


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## Bronte (22 Oct 2008)

Before you go down the route of another solicitor (which will be costly and you could just end up in the same situation) why don't you write down the questions you want to ask your solicitor and give this to him to answer.  There was on AAM another person in your situation (about 2 months ago I think) and they had a dreadful time trying to get the deposit back, it was nothing to do with the solicitor but the builder for some reason was able to delay paying, if you do a search you might find it and it might be helpful to you.


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## dub1 (22 Oct 2008)

thanks, I did a search but couldnt find the post that you were talking about. I spoke to the solicitor today. He said that the other solicitor is basically ignoring him so he has faxed him a letter saying that he will put into the hands of councel if he does not revert back. he is getting a barraster to look over it tomorrow. he is not clear when I ask him specific questions. One minute he is saying things in a very optimistic way then he said at one point today that we dont really have a case to pull out yet because the builder basically has 18 months to finish the build from last april. he then contradicted this by saying that the as the builder basically forced us to snag that this changes the situation. I'm none the wiser after speaking with him today. It would be great if somebody read this post that was in a very similar situation. It could work out very costly. I didnt realise that if we pull out the builder can sell the property at a price that he now sees fit and then sue me for the balance. The solicitor at one stage suggested maybe pulling out and completely risking the whole deposit. His point is that even if this was lost house prices have dropped by so much that it would not make a massive difference. The deposit is €54000. We paid €540000 for the property. Its too much money to walk away from


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## mercman (22 Oct 2008)

This appears as if you are going to have a heap of additional costs. Your engineer has cost you as the builder instructed you to snag the property. Remember I do not think you would be obliged to complete on the purchase if there was no Homebond Insurance in place. Before this goes any further have you mentioned this to them on the basis that Insurance is not in place. If it is not or will not be you may not have to complete.


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## Bronte (3 Nov 2008)

dub1 said:


> The solicitor at one stage suggested maybe pulling out and completely risking the whole deposit. His point is that even if this was lost house prices have dropped by so much that it would not make a massive difference.


  I cannot believe a solicitor has offered this advice.  Did he tell you the builder could still come after you if you did this.  Today there is a thread on this very subject.


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## FKH (3 Nov 2008)

"One minute he is saying things in a very optimistic way then he said at one point today that we dont really have a case to pull out yet because the builder basically has 18 months to finish the build from last april. he then contradicted this by saying that the as the builder basically forced us to snag that this changes the situation."

The builder fixed the Completion Date by giving you notice that the works were finished but if you do not agree that any works left to do are minor (snagging) then the prescribed course is that an arbitrator would determine whether the defects were minor or major and if major they cannot rely on the Completion Date and must set a new one when the works have been remedied. There is an argument that the builder would have the balance of the 18 months to finish the apartment if the defects were of a major nature.

You could suggest that your solicitor write stating that you do not accept that defects are minor and that you want to refer the matter to arbitration unless the builder accepts in writing that the problems are major and rectifies them. Also state that you do not accept that the Completion Notice is valid.


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## dub1 (3 Nov 2008)

In fairness to him he did say that but at the same time he seemed to indicate that we had a good case. That was until he ran it past a barrister last week who basicaally said that the builder has 18 months to fix these problems from the time contracts were signed, regardless of the fact that he actually forced us to snag. That was 8 weeks ago and we have heard absolutely nothing since. I have been to the site and nothing has been touched. My solicitor is finding it impossible to get a response from the builders solicitor. He has written, faxed and makes calls. At this stage I dont think that the builder has the intention of doing anything for the foeseeable future. My solicitor cannot get any kind of timeframe at all. I think either the builder does not have the funds to make good the problems(approx €40000) or else he is finding it difficult to find a solution. Surely there must be  a way out of this mess. I'm in a situation where I sold my house last year and have been renting thinking that I would be well settled in this property at this stage(when I put the deposit down in Feb the builder said that the property was more or less ready). I now have to move because where I'm living now is being sold. Do I move to short term(not the easiest to find), medium or long term accomodation. Its a complete mess


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## dub1 (3 Nov 2008)

Sorry fkh I didnt see your post there on page 2 before I replied to the last comment on page 1. It sounds like good advice. I am aslo going to call another solicitor tomorrow(that has been reccomended) as i don't feel that mine really gives a damn to be honest. I actually very rarely get to speak to him. Its normally just his legal secretary. To be honest I'm not holding out any hope at this stage


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## dub1 (9 Nov 2008)

Hi. I got a call from the builders foreman on Wednesday asking for my structural engineer to meet next Thursday at the property with the builder and his architecht. I asked if all the issues had been addressed. He said that they had and that the place was immaculate. I asked for an email to be sent to myself and my solicitor confirming that next Thursday is basically my snaggers reinspection and to confirm in the email that all the issues have been addressed. I asked for this twice but have not recieved it. I'm now not sure of the exact purpose of this meeting on Thursday(which I will definately attend aswell). I also drove past the property today and noticed someone inside. I rang the bell. When the door was opened(by a worker that recognised me) i just let myself in. He looked a little edgy and uncomfortable. I had a good look aroung. The place looked like a bomb hit it. I also checked the windows and there is still alot of moisture inside them. I went to the lower lever and low and behold what did I see only a dehumidifier. The main issue here is the excessively high moisture levels, especially in the lowest level. Im assuming that there is still major dampness hence the dehumidifier. Im convinced more than ever that the builder is a con man. But I realised today that I really love this property. But the last thing that I want is to buy a property with problems. Surely if the property is still showing major problems on Thursday then I will have strong grounds to pull out and will not have to adhere to the condition in the policy that states that the builder has 18 months to basically finish the property?????


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## FKH (10 Nov 2008)

I'd still be of the opinion that you're stuck with the 18 month time period for completion. It sounds like the builder is trying to dry the place out prior to your inspection in this instance.

I would perhaps also suggest that the builder go through his solicitor in writing rather than telephone you. I notice that you are already looking for everything in writing. If he phones you just ask his to get his solicitor to write to your solicitor to confirm everything.

I don't think it's necessarily a re-inspection as you disputed that the work was finished in the first place. As him to send a new completion statement to your solicitor stating that the propetry is finished. If he does this it is an admission that the property wasn't ready first time.


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## dub1 (14 Nov 2008)

The "reinspection" was done yesterday. There was still high levels of dampness. The builder had the heating on full blast in the lower level right up until we arrived(the room where the dehumidifier was). In fairness to the structural engineer he went all out and checked absolutely everything. We were there for about 3 hours overall. He found some building regulation problems. The head height clearance is approx 200mm lower than building requirements in places(on the stairsetc). He said that this is a serious issue. The engineer has been involved in a number of cases where there are contract issues. Another issue is general differences(window sizes, room sizes etc) in the property and the plans that were submitted into the contract. Is this considered serious?. Another odd thing is that I went into the civic offices on Tuesday and got a copy of the planning file. The plans that were approved are completely different than what was built. Not just small differences, completely different. The property is even 20sq metres smaller now than what was approved by planning. Is this an issue that I can do anything with. The builder seemed quite nervous yesterday. On a separate issue the property next door was destroyed(and the property below it)yesterday due to a burst pipe. I called in and the place is a complete mess. Im now feeling even less confident about the whole development now. Any further advice?


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## mercman (14 Nov 2008)

Have you received confirmation from HomeBond that the property is covered under their Policy. Are you sure that you really want to purchase this property. If the property is completely different from the plans submitted with the contract, your solicitor should be able to extract you from this purchase. The destroyed properties next door and 
below should be a complete indication as to what you are getting into.


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## aircobra19 (14 Nov 2008)

I'd make every effort to get out of that. You'll just be plagued with endless problems and big bills for years to come. It will break your heart. You'll never be able to sell it either. I expect the builder realises the same. Once he loses the people currently signed up, he'll never sell the properties to anyone else, once they see/inspect them.


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## dub1 (14 Nov 2008)

my solicitor is to provide the engineer with all documentation today before he does up his report. correct me if im wrong but do homebond not provide their certs very early on in the build(i was always of the impression that these certs were only given after the property was finished). With regard to the property being completely different from the plans, this is correct. But its only completely different from the plans that were approved by Dublin City Council. It is different(but not massively) from the drawings as submitted into the contracts. As I didnt buy from the original plans would I have any grounds to pull out here(the proprty has lost 20sq metres frm the original approved plans). After yesterday I want out. Its obvious that the builder has masked some of the dampness by way of the dehumidifier. My worry is that a year down the line the dampness could become a very serious issue again. The engineer seems to think that I have strong grounds to pull out(especially due to the building regulations that were not adhered to). But at the end of the day he is not a solicitor. After saying that he has been much more help to me than my solicitor, who is a complete waste


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## mercman (14 Nov 2008)

Not only should you try and get out of the House purchase, you should give serious consideration to changing your solicitor. You are wasting valuable time and money in trying to fix a problem not of your making. Using a dehumidifier will only temperairily hide a damp problem If the root cause of the dampness is not sorted, there will be massive problems further down the road.


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## aircobra19 (14 Nov 2008)

Get a better solicitor. I would guess theres more problems you haven't found, plumbing, electrics etc.


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## dub1 (14 Nov 2008)

sounds like good advice. Does anyone know a good conveyance solicitor(the impression thaat I get is that my solictor has earned the majority of his fee at this stage and just wants rid of thiss at this stage)


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## mercman (14 Nov 2008)

IMO, it doesn't work this way. He charged you his fee to exchange contracts on a house purchase. If he doesn't want to move matters forward, let him refund you. Not sure what part of the country you are in, but I would suggest you use a heavyweight law firm to get you out of this. However, I would have the existing solicitor write to the builder's solicitor to have your deposit refunded and to advise of your intentions and from hereon in all the expenses will be for his account.


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## dub1 (14 Nov 2008)

thanks, i appreciate the advice


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## aircobra19 (14 Nov 2008)

I can only agree with the above. Do your outmost to get out of this contract.


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## mercman (14 Nov 2008)

And say nothing to your existing solicitor about moving for the time being.


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## Kate10 (14 Nov 2008)

Hi Dub1,

I hear that you are feeling very frustrated with your solicitor, but in fairness to him/her this is not a black and white situation, and you are looking for a black and white answer.

You signed contracts that allowed for an 18 months build period.  It's going to be very tricky for any solicitor to get you out of this contract.  The builder has to breach a fundamental term of the contract before you can rescind it.  The fact that the builder asked you to snag a house that was in no way ready is bad but it's not bad enough to be a fundamental breach.  That is why your counsel said you did not have grounds to pull out.

Having said that, matters seem to have progressed more since then, and there are a couple of things I would say to you:

1.  Homebond issue a number of certificates and the final certificate only issues after the house is complete and has been inspected by them.  
2.  The fact that your deposit is held by the solicitor for the builder as stakeholder is very positive.  
3.  Your job now is to hang in there, be patient, and work your way out of this situation.  It won't be fixed overnight but if you do everything right you will either get all of your money back and walk away or ultimately get a house that is structurally sound.

Ok, so this is what I think you should do next:

The planning permission issue is the biggest negotiating point you have, assuming that the information you have gathered is correct.  I know that you got plans from the LA, but you should be aware that the builder could have submitted plans at a later date that were substantially different.  Do you definitely have the most recent set of plans approved by the LA?

Confirm that first.  If you do have them, then contact your solicitor.  I think it would be best to email him at this stage with the info you have gathered.  Tell him that your engineer has confirmed that the properties are in breach of planning permission (make sure that your engineer is on board with this).  It is likely that you solicitor will write to the other side putting this to them, and telling them that you believe this to be a fundamental breach of contract, and if they cannot provide evidence to the contrary you intend to repudiate the contract.  While the builder could argue that he could still remedy this problem within the next 18 months, you will be putting him under serious pressure (he is really not going to want to address this on all the properties), and you will be building up your grounds to pull out.

Having said that Dub, I think its very unlikely that he is so obviously in breach of his planning permission ...it's pretty extreme ...

Be patient.  You are in a messy situation and there are no easy answers.  Work with your solicitor and you will come out the far end.

Best of luck.

Kate.


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## Bronte (14 Nov 2008)

If the house has not been built according to plan then you cannot get a certificate of compliance with planning unless you get a false one.  No solicitor would allow you to purchase without this.  If the house is smaller than what was in the contract then you will have grounds to pull out, that would be a serious contractual matter, especially a difference of 20 sq m.  The height problem cannot be rectified easily and that is a serious issue as it doesn't comply with building regulations.  The dehumidifier and heater will temporarily disguise the underlying damp problems.  As previous posters have said you should try and get out of this contract.


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## dub1 (14 Nov 2008)

Hi, I appreciate your replys. I did verify with Dublin City Council that what they had was the final plans that were submitted. But as I said earlier this may not help our case much seeing as we did not buy off the plans(its not like we can argue that the house wasnt built as per what we thought it would.). There are differences from the contract plans but nowhere near as major as the original plans. The 20sq metrre loss is also from the original plans aswell. According to the Structural Engineer the height restriction problems that they have breached would be impossible to remedy. Aside from his own experience the engineers wife used to be a senior planner for Dublin City Council, so I assume he is getting good advice from her. He really is going beyond the call of duty on this for me. So do you think that I should for now stick with the solicitor that I have. I dont have a problem at this stage playing the waiting game. On a slightly separate issue the engineer did an assessment of the external area of the development(its only 12 units). He said that the builder has breached so many safety issues. You are right its a messy situation, and one which I think will get a lot messier.


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## gwladys st (14 Nov 2008)

Hello Dub1, I am in a very similar situation. I paid a deposit last May 07 and the they only finished the house last week but the site is a total mess, barely 20% finished with houses at foundation stage or less right beside mine. I don’t want it now and have offered to forfeit my deposit but have heard nothing as to whether they accept this or not. according to my contract they had 18 months to finish my house, therefore this runs out on Monday and while they have finished the house itself no one could live happily there and its looks to me like there is a good 6 or 12 months work left before its remotely liveable. I have recently been on to a few TD's as i want this highlighted that the law seems to protect the builder far too much and because of the last 15 years great economy this has never come to light. I believe people like us need to possibly get together and campaign about this issue as there is strength in numbers. I totally understand your current situation and distress and would be happy to talk to you if you feel you would like to help highlighting this issue which i feel is affecting many people right now with the way things have gone.


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## aircobra19 (14 Nov 2008)

gwladys st. I think your situation is very different. Perhaps start a new thread on it. But its not unusual for schemes not to be fully finished when you take possession of your new house. The only problem arises if the builder doesn't complete the site in a resonable amount of time. This has happened a lot aswell. But its a different subject.


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## dub1 (14 Nov 2008)

Hi GWLADYS ST. I dont envy your situation. Coincidentally aI only spoke to a girl in work yesterday who is in your exact situation. Her builder went over the 18 months(she was hoping this would happen and was even willing to forego her deposit aswell). Her solicitor told the builders solicitor that they now wanted her deposit back. She then got a call from the estate agent offering her a substantial discount, which she refused. The builders solicitor then said that they were going to force them to close. Her solicitor ran this by a barrister(at a cost of approx €1000) and he came back to say that the 18 month timescale in the contract basically means nothing as there is something called essence of time in the contract which gives the builder more time(i dont understand this at all. Why even mention 18 months in the first place). He said that she has a weak case and that worst case scenario she would have to pay all legal costs for both sides and the builder will still have grounds to make her close. I find it incredible that there seems to be so much protection for builders and the consumer is left so vulnerable. I would have thought that this was a black and white situation here, but apparently not. To an extent I blame the solicitor. It wasnt until he ran this by the barrister that he realised that this was in her contract???.So what will your next step be


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## aircobra19 (14 Nov 2008)

http://www.gillhams.com/dictionary/157.cfm


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## gwladys st (14 Nov 2008)

Dub 1 Can I ask where you are buying if you dont mind. the problem is with the last 15 or so years of boom none of these mental laws favouring builders have come to light and thus the likes of you and me are being put in crazy stressful situations. Regarding my situation being different, well if they guy who said that saw the site he might think twice. You seem to have less stuatory rights buying a house than a packet of buscuits. when you buy a house it should not just be 4 walls and a roof but a living environment and place to raise a family. Its too big an expense and too important an issue for Joe public for the right and proper protections to not be in there favour as i believe they are more so in the UK. Only campaigning for and highlighting this with elected officials will get things changed.


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## dub1 (14 Nov 2008)

Im buying in Kilmainham. The builder is small time. My friend in work that is in your situation bought in Adamstown and the builder is Castlethorn(who are huge). Its all very stressfull. It dosent help that I'm forced to rent and not knowing how long for. I agree with you completely in everything that you said. When I was down on the site last Sunday(the day that I caught them with the dehumidifier), I saw a woman come out of the property two doors up. I approached her and told her who I was. I asked had she any problems with her property. She said her daughter lived there and brought me in. Low and behold there is dampness(it looked fairly considerable to me). She said that she is finding it impossible to contact the builder. Out of 12 units that is one with dampness, 2 that have had major leaks through the balcony areas(destroying both living room floors) and yesterdays burst pipe(destroying the whole downstairs and damaging the unit below). Can these examples be used in my case . I'm guessing the answer is probably not


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## mercman (14 Nov 2008)

gwladys, You are in a different position it appears. Your house is complete to your satisfaction - from your post it appears that the common areas are a mess. The original OP is in a somewhat different position. The house is a complete mess/disaster.


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## gwladys st (14 Nov 2008)

My first bit of advice would be to email Minister John Gormley @ minister@environ.ie with a detailed email of your situation and the fact you feel you have no protection. i have done this and got a response from his personal secretary saying a further email will be on its way. The more of these he gets the better. Its all so screwed up right now but I guess its just a fight we have to fight, its the only way things change. So send him and email and maybe also your local TD's, both FF and otherwise, which I have also done. Buyers need protectiona nd these people can get things done but they need to know about them


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## mercman (14 Nov 2008)

But will they become involved in Private Disputes ??


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## aircobra19 (14 Nov 2008)

Unfinished estates has been an issue for years. Back in the late 80's/90's it was very common for builders to go bust leaving the estate, even roads unfinished, and it too a few years for the local authority to take them in hand. But thats not what you are talking about at this point. 

Moving into a new house in an unfinished estate is par for the course in fairness.


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## Kate10 (14 Nov 2008)

Dub1,

Going back the planning issue:

The plans attached to your contract are in a way less relevant than the plans on which planning permission was granted.  It is a condition of your contract that the builder will have to provide you with a declaration of compliance with planning permission and building regulations on closing.  This is a very important requirement, and in my opinion, inability to provide it would be a fundamental breach of the contract, sufficient to allow you to break the contract and get your money back.

If the property that was built is so very different to the one that the council gave permission for, then no engineer/architect will give a cert unless the builder goes back and gets retention permission.

I wouldn't put too much emphasis on the 200mm height difference - to me this doesn't seem to be too big a deal - it is a technical breach but doesn't seem sufficient to impact on your safe enjoyment of your property (engineers please correct me if I'm wrong!) - but the difference in plans is obviously very significant.

Call your engineer and ask his opinion.  Would he give a cert of compliance for a house that is that different from the plans?  If he says no, then call your solicitor and fill him in ..

And yes I do think you should stick to your current solicitor for now.


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## gwladys st (14 Nov 2008)

Mercman, one of labours official campaigns is in relation to quality of life in commuter belt and suburb towns and new developments so this actually ties in well with that and I spoke to a member of the party about my issue. When buying a house you buy from a glossy brochure giving you a sense of where you will live, now in my opinion if there are houses sitting next to yours with foundations and no more and a mud bath where 10 or more houses were supposed to go and heavy construction vehicles going by your house for the next 12 months or so, not to mention no street lighting or the kids play areas promised (a site office hut instead!!) then this is wrong and totally unacceptable and the law must protect the buyer in this regard and allow them to walk away from the contract and live there life elsewhere, if this was the law builders would sure as hell make more of an effort. It’s an utter disgrace that on such a major purchase for a average member of the public this kind of behaviour is acceptable and protected in law essentially. When they sell you a house there are in my opinion alot of implied elements and when not provided to a standard any reasonable person would accept then the purchaser should be fully protected and allowed to walk away from a contract after a certain time frame such as the 18 month period most contracts state and live their lives elsewhere


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## mercman (14 Nov 2008)

It might have been one of Labours official campaigns, why haven't they done anything about it ?? Is it just a case of Political Bluff ?? This kind of carry on goes on all over the country and also in the UK. Developers at the moment have not got the money to complete the sites with houses lest alone communal areas. I do not see as to you have any chance of walking away from an uncompleted site. You contracted to purchase a home not a play ground. What would happen if you bought a house and the field behind was deveoped into a factory. This is not the developer's fault.


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## gwladys st (14 Nov 2008)

I know I didnt buy a play ground and your smart comments are much obliged! Why should anyone move on a site with the house beside them barley stated and a row of house s beside that just muck, could your kids go outside while major contruction goes on, thats not a living environment which is what you buy into. By your line of thinking you could build one house in isolation on a 1000 acre plot where you were supposed to build 1000 houses and force someone to move into it and just leave the rest. My property is not on soem site where just a few bits and pieces needs doing, we are talking vast ammounts of work right next door to where i am expected to live, not 100 yards away or on another street, on my doorstep. When you pay vast ammounts of money for anything in life it must be incumbent on the seller to provide you with exactly what you are looking for and that when buying a house is the whole package not just the 4 walls and a roof, now if you think this is not the case fine but I ask you to keep the smart remarks to yourself.


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## aircobra19 (14 Nov 2008)

gwladys st - why can't you start a new thread on this issue instead of derailing this one. 

Did your contract specificy/cover anything other than your own boundary and everything within it?


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## gwladys st (14 Nov 2008)

Its not something I would have even looked at at the time, Im no legal expert and didnt even think to ask, you would just assume you would be proviuded with someone comfortable to live. If you saw what they expect me to move onto you would likely agree but I will post elsewhere

I am just aghast at how unprotected buyers are in these siutations, after all isnt a house likely the most important purchase of your life and the most expensive...is it wrong to expect a certain living environment?


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## mercman (14 Nov 2008)

They were not meant to be taken as smart remarks. These are serious pointers. I'm just looking at it from the law side. Do you really think there is a legal case ?? The judiciary are there to decide on the law, not on grievances. You contracted to purchase a house, which I assume that is satisfactory The rest is by and by. Anyway the OP has a different more important and valid point. There is little point in Hijacking other's posts to let off steam.


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## aircobra19 (14 Nov 2008)

If you want to move into a finish area, you move into a finished area, not buy off the plans in estate thats not built yet. Its only logical that if something is built in phases that some properties, even them all will be finished before the whole scheme, and its enviroment are finished. Thats the way its always been done for decades. Thats just how its done. Unless of course there is a condition in the contract covering the rest of the development. 

So you don't have a problem yet. You only have a problem IF the developer leaves the site unfinished in the future and doesn't complete all phases of the scheme. Unfinished estates has been a issue for many many years.  . I'm guessing theres hundreds of unfinished estates around the country. As Developers run out of money, and local authorities run out money it will be a common enough problem. If you want to avoid this, buy in a scheme thats already finished and not off the plans. 

But the original topic is not about any of this.


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## joker538 (14 Nov 2008)

gwladys st said:


> Its not something I would have even looked at at the time,


 


gwladys st said:


> I am just aghast at how unprotected buyers are in these siutations


 
If you didnt think it important to glance through contract documents on something you will be paying for for the next 25-35 years you are unprotected..


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## pinkie123 (14 Nov 2008)

there is some law about what state a development should be in b4 anyone allowed to move in - in my new house - all houses built on my cul de sac finished before i was even allowed to snag. I would check where I stand legally.


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## dub1 (14 Nov 2008)

maybe I should start a new thread myself because this one has completely gone off the subject


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## FKH (14 Nov 2008)

http://www.supremecourt.ie/Judgment...ad013f7b541fa33180256f55004273bb?OpenDocument

Interesting case that went to the Supreme Court, the idea of "time of the essence" was discussed with regard to a special condition in the contract regarding planning permission being granted before a certain date. The SC held that time of the essence related to completion of the sale and not compliance with a condition in the contract. 

In my opinion:

In DUB1's friend's case there could be no completion date fixed until the property has been built. The builder could not ask her to buy an unfinished property so the building agreement is unenforceable by the builder until he has built the property. After the 18 month time period expires, I believe that the agreement can be rescinded if the builder has failed to comply with the condition to build the property within 18 months. Again it is only my legal opinion on the matter and ultimately a court will have to decide these cases, once the first one is decided it will set the precedent really but I would argue that the principles in O'Connor -v- Coady apply.


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## dub1 (16 Nov 2008)

Hi. Thanks for that. I will pass what you have said on to her. Any chance that you might know of a previous case that went to court that is similar to my situation


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## FKH (16 Nov 2008)

I'm afraid not, I think you need to hold out with this one and not close though.


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## foxylady (21 Nov 2008)

dub1 said:


> Hi GWLADYS ST. I dont envy your situation. Coincidentally aI only spoke to a girl in work yesterday who is in your exact situation. Her builder went over the 18 months(she was hoping this would happen and was even willing to forego her deposit aswell). Her solicitor told the builders solicitor that they now wanted her deposit back. She then got a call from the estate agent offering her a substantial discount, which she refused. The builders solicitor then said that they were going to force them to close. Her solicitor ran this by a barrister(at a cost of approx €1000) and he came back to say that the 18 month timescale in the contract basically means nothing as there is something called essence of time in the contract which gives the builder more time(i dont understand this at all. Why even mention 18 months in the first place). He said that she has a weak case and that worst case scenario she would have to pay all legal costs for both sides and the builder will still have grounds to make her close. I find it incredible that there seems to be so much protection for builders and the consumer is left so vulnerable. I would have thought that this was a black and white situation here, but apparently not. To an extent I blame the solicitor. It wasnt until he ran this by the barrister that he realised that this was in her contract???.So what will your next step be


 
What has your friend done since. I am in almost identical situation and have been advised to go to court to get deposit back but if not successful will have to pay possibly 5 times the deposit


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## dub1 (22 Nov 2008)

Hi. She had a long meeting with her solicitor who basically told her that she needs to make a decision as to whether she wants proceedings issued or not. I think that she has found, as I have with my situation, that alot of solicitors really dont seem to know that much about getting out of these type of situations. It seems to be the barristers that they refer the cases to that give the real advice(at a cost of approx €1000). The barrister had said that she had a weak case because of the essence of time thing but she has now spoken to another barrister who is a friend of her fathers who is going to run it by a colleague of his and then help her to make a decision(she should have used him in the first place and saved herself the €1000 fee that the other barrister that the solicitor used charged her). He is to come back to her next week. She is 100% adament that she will not proceed with the purchase though. I will let you know what advice she gwts from this other barrister.


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## PaddyBloggit (22 Nov 2008)

dub1 said:


> Hi. She had a long meeting with her solicitor who basically told her that she needs to make a decision as to whether she wants proceedings issued or not. I think that she has found, as I have with my situation, that alot of solicitors really dont seem to know that much about getting out of these type of situations. It seems to be the barristers that they refer the cases to that give the real advice(at a cost of approx €1000). The barrister had said that she had a weak case because of the essence of time thing but she has now spoken to another barrister who is a friend of her fathers who is going to run it by a colleague of his and then help her to make a decision(she should have used him in the first place and saved herself the €1000 fee that the other barrister that the solicitor used charged her). He is to come back to her next week. She is 100% adament that she will not proceed with the purchase though. I will let you know what advice she gwts from this other barrister.



What does she stand to lose by walking away?
Can the builder come after her for doing that?


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## dub1 (23 Nov 2008)

she could lose her €20000 deposit. But ultimately(as per the initial advice that she has got) she could lose this along with all legal costs(for both sides) and the builder can then force her to proceed with the purchase at the full price(she was offered a reduction of €50000 but was still not intrested). The thing is that at this stage her mortgage approval is more than likely up. She would have to apply for a new mortgage. At this stage she seriously doubts that she would get this. Where that would leave her I dont know as the contract is not subject to mortgage approval. Thats a good general question, if people can no longer get the mortgae that they were originally approved for where does that leave things legally. I will let you know what advice the other barrister gives her later on next week.


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## mercman (23 Nov 2008)

dub1, Has anything happened in your case ??????

Concerning your friend, I am unable to see her reason as to why she is adamant that she does not want to complete. If the house has been built correctly and has been offered a starting €50 k discount, surely she should go back looking for a larger discount. There is not a hope in hells chance of any court siding with a purchaser to withdraw simply because the market has gone down. If this was her own personal home, she might be better renegotiating the deal and living with it before the whole matter breaks her financially and emotionally.


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## dub1 (23 Nov 2008)

i'd have a tendency to agree. But her personal circumstances have changed so I suppose when the 18 months on her contract expired and the property was not finished then she saw this as a chance to get out of the contract. Its not black and white hence the reason why this other barrister wants to run it by a colleague before advising her accordingly. I think its a disgrace though. An 18 month time frame is put into a contract and then this whole time of essence essentially extends this. Its like my own situation. I vie a place in Feb and am told thats its just ready. 9 months later and there are all these problems with it. But because I only signed contracts in May this could mean that the builder could technically sit on his backside for the next 12 months until the 18 months is up. It seems to me that there is little protection there for purchasers


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## FKH (23 Nov 2008)

Be interesting to see what the other barrister thinks. It's not a black and white area and is open to interpretation depending on the amount of time of the delay, the reasons for the delay etc. A delay of a week might be too short, a delay of 3 months might be too long and I don't really think anyone knows the full answer. Even the legal texts on conveyancing don't have definitive answers.

Story in the Times about builders suing.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article5213789.ece


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## dub1 (25 Nov 2008)

intresting article. I think my friend was only about a month away from the house being ready so Im really curious to see how it works out. My own situation is completely different. Im meeting with the solicitor on Thursday. I think that we  are probably going to be advised to formally pull out. No doubt we will have a fight on our hands with the builder


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## dub1 (27 Nov 2008)

I met with my solicitor today. Before the meeting he had called the engineer and had a long conversation. The long and short of it is that he said that there is no way that we can proceed with this. he said that neither himself or the engineer could or would advise us to do so. The engineer said that there were certain issues wrong with the house that just cannot be fixed. He said that the builder will probably put up a fight and that it could be a long drawn out process. Anything up to 18 months. But at the end of the day this IS NOT a case where we are trying to get out of a contract just because the property may not be worth as much as it was when we purchased it. Its a home that we are planning on living in for years to come. So for now I dont know where that leaves us. Do we start looking for some where else in a few months if this drags on????


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## mercman (27 Nov 2008)

Now dub1. at last you are making progress. Both the solicitor and engineer are advising you not to proceed. I would say you will need to appoint a bloody good barrister to fight your corner, so to speak. I use a Junior Counsel named Hugh O'Keefe that is excellent (an expert) in Property Law. I suggest you ask your solicitor to get in touch with him ASAP.


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## dub1 (27 Nov 2008)

Thanks for that. I think that the solicitor is goint to run it past a barrister friend of his that is well up on property. He said that it'll be more of in a casual way so to speak at first so there will be no cost. Is that guy that you reccomended really good. I'm feeling relieved . Only because the decision was made for us at the end of the day and we wern't left in a scenario where we got advice from the solicitor and then had to make a choice ourselves


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## dub1 (27 Nov 2008)

by the way does anyone have any idea whtat legal costs I am likely to incur here. It didn't get to that stage in the discussion with the solicitor today


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## mercman (27 Nov 2008)

The fella I mentioned is excellent. Knows his stuff backwards, and gets into the case, not just mouthing off. He is a Junior Counsel, and I have used him where he has been up against Senior Counsel and ripped them apart. I have no connection with him other than I have used him a number of times and have won all my cases. I would not recommend him if he was shaky.


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## dub1 (27 Nov 2008)

I'll mention him to my solicitor. Can you send me on his contact details(or is it a case that my solicitor will probably know of him already). Regarding my question about legal costs would you have any idea. Also if its a case that the builder has breached planning as well as building regulatios(that can not be fixed according to the engineer)and the dampness issue is still major and all the other problems on top of this, do you think that he will make this difficult and fight us on this or do you think that his solicitor will advise him not to. probably an impossible question to answer I know


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## mercman (27 Nov 2008)

I will PM his details tomorrow as they are in my office. I would say the costs will be charged on the type of case basis, but they are obliged to provide costs estimates before been instructed. In relation to the defendant, the Builder I am not sure is he a small or large builder. However they are all under the same financial constraints and he might not have the money to fight you or his solicitor might refuse to take on the case, especially if he thinks there may be some element of getting paid.


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## Bronte (28 Nov 2008)

dub1 said:


> I met with my solicitor today. Before the meeting he had called the engineer and had a long conversation. The long and short of it is that he said that there is no way that we can proceed with this. he said that neither himself or the engineer could or would advise us to do so.


  This is great news Dub1.  There is no way you should purchase that house.  Now for the bad news, it will probably take a long time to get the deposit back, I would advice you to keep renting until this case has been decided.  You need to be sure of the court decision before you proceed in any other house purchase.  Please keep us informed as to how you get on and don't forget there is no point going after someone (company) with no assets, it's not currently the case here but the builder might decide to go out of business.


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## FKH (28 Nov 2008)

Good luck dub1,  hopefully issuing legal proceedings against the builder might spark some action on his part and he will see sense and give you back your deposit.


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## Kate10 (28 Nov 2008)

Hi dub 1,
I think your costs should be relatively low.  You will refuse to complete the contract and rescind it for misrepresentation and breach of contract probably.  Your solicitor will look for the deposit back from the vendor's solicitor.  The vendor will have to sue you if he wants you to complete, and if I was his solicitor I would be strongly advising him not to do so.  I doubt very much if he will sue you and suspect that if your solr sticks to his guns you will get the deposit back eventually, without having to formally issue proceedings.  It will probably take a few months with all the to-ing and fro-ing.

If I were you I would hold off on buying anything else until all of this is resolved.  

Best of luck.

Kate.


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## mercman (28 Nov 2008)

dub1, pm sent to you.


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## PaddyW (28 Nov 2008)

Glad there's good news for you you dub1. Best of luck with the rest of it.


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## PaddyBloggit (28 Nov 2008)

Fingers crossed for you!


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## dub1 (28 Nov 2008)

thanks for your commens. As and when I get updates I will post them. Hopefully it'll all work out for us


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## dub1 (2 Dec 2008)

I got an email from mysolicitor today. He spoke with the builders solicitor who thinks that we are trying to get out of the contract because of the downturn in the market. His client is of the same opinion. The builders Architect seems to be of the impression (I think that it is one large lie) that the issues are being resolved and that he had a productive meeting with our Engineer when we did our second inspection(which was supposed to have been our final inspection). I find this odd as the architect only stayed for 10 mins or so and literally did not say more than a handful of words to the engineer. The engineer also did not discuss any of his findings on the day with the builder(who was also there). Our solicitor advised that our Engineer is adamant that this premises are not completed and cannot be completed in accordance with the Planning Permission or Building Regulations or good building practise and therefore that we intend to rescind the Contract. That will require us to enter into Arbitration in accordance with the terms of the Building Agreement. Arbitration is required prior to the issue of proceedings and can be if both parties agree be appropriate. The solicitor would not agree to abandonment of this procedure in the light of the very strong views held by our Engineer. The solicitor would have thought that the Builder would have rejected the notion but did not get that impression during his conversation with the builders solicitor. The solicitor said that we are now in a situation where the completion has to be abandoned.

Any comments. Is the other sides attitude completely expected. I'm probably getting prematurely worried(I hope)


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## mercman (2 Dec 2008)

If your side intends to use the Arbitration route, make sure that ALL your team are happy with the Arbitrator. Did you pass the Barrister details to your solicitor yet ??


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## dub1 (2 Dec 2008)

Yeah I di but only this afternoon. Is it a good idea to go to arbitration before issuing proceedings. Are you surprised with the reaction from the other side


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## putsch (2 Dec 2008)

No surprise there. The builder will just defend his position - he will not try to see your point of view.


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## mercman (2 Dec 2008)

I think that due process has to be gone through. I am not surprised at the reaction from the other side. As long as your engineer can be cross examined and is up to thr mark. However, I would suggest to your solicitor that you will go down this route on the condition that the Builder places the deposit you paid into an Escrow account (joint Account between his solicitor and yours) to protect either party.


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## dub1 (2 Dec 2008)

I'm probably asking an impossible question to answer but based on what you know about this do you think that the liklihood is that we will get our deposit back. My solicitor made the point of saying last week that he thinks that the engineer would be excellent if this went to court etc


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## mercman (2 Dec 2008)

Yes, but that is why I mentioned having same placed in a joint account. Basically to make sure same is visible. The manner in which nthe building trade is and gthe way this builder constructs I would leave nothing to chance.


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## WaterSprite (3 Dec 2008)

mercman said:


> However, I would suggest to your solicitor that you will go down this route on the condition that the Builder places the deposit you paid into an Escrow account (joint Account between his solicitor and yours) to protect either party.



That is excellent advice - take it OP!


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## aircobra19 (3 Dec 2008)

Consider the kind of person who would try and flog such a building to someone. Thats who you are dealing with.


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## Bronte (3 Dec 2008)

The architect is working for the builder so you shouldn't expect him to be on your side.  Engineer to architect - they may talk honestly to one another but the architect wants to continue working for the builder so will 'tone' it down for the builder.   Sometimes your boss doesn't want to hear the truth.  
The escrow account is a marvellous idea but I doubt the builder will go for it.  It would show good faith by the builder if he agreed to it, as previous poster said he's trying to sell something not to standard and therefore not a person to be trusted.  Someone who has built many houses knows exactly that it's not to standard.  I may be wrong but I imagine the arbitration route is just a delaying tactic.  Ask your solicitor if it would be better to go straight to law. I don't know if refusing to go down the arbitration route it would be looked upon badly.  I don't see how you can lose.  The builder presumably cannot get an engineer/expert to verify that the building complies with planning/building regulations etc so how can he win.  That is the only way he could win surely.  Try and think from the builder's point of view.  What would you do if you were the builder.


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## geld (3 Dec 2008)

Just to throw a spanner in the works...have you costed solicitor fees vs. deposit?  Esp. if this goes through further processes (arbitration, court, etc...).  Your solicitor fees may end up costing you more than the original deposit did.


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## dub1 (3 Dec 2008)

Hi. Thanks alot for your comments. I think that there may be an arbitration clause in the building contract. But going to arbitration is not normally binding(I think). Is the point of arbitration to give an idea of what the decision is likely to be if the case went to court, but at the fraction of the cost. I take it nobody is surprised at the builders reaction. I'm a bit down about the whole thing but he was hardly going to just hand over the deposit without a fight. With regard to the costs the deposit is €54000 so its definately worth fighting for. Does anybody have any worst case scenario costs for this. I'm trying to think logically in that how can we be forced into buying a place that is not completed in accordance with planning, or building regulations or good building practice in general. Is there a reason why the builder after all these months has not put forward his own engineers report if he thinks that this place is ok. Thanks again for your comments


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## dub1 (12 Feb 2009)

just to give an update to those who gave me advice on this over the months. We referred our case to a barrister. We havent heard anything back. The builder offered us a discount about 3 weeks ago. We declined. I got a call from the solicitors office this morning to say that a cheque arrived from the builders solicitor this morning  in full reimbursement of our deposit. To say I was shocked was an understatement. He obviously knew that we had a really srong case against him. At least its all over now. The only thing is that there was no mention of all the stuff that we have in the house(we put in all the appliances, fancy rads, wall mounted fire  etc etc. About €5000 i value). Would anybody think that we will have a problem getting these back. Surely he cant just keep them. My solicitor is not back from holiday till next week so I havnt discussed this with him yet.


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## danash (13 Feb 2009)

dub1 said:


> just to give an update to those who gave me advice on this over the months. We referred our case to a barrister. We havent heard anything back. The builder offered us a discount about 3 weeks ago. We declined. I got a call from the solicitors office this morning to say that a cheque arrived from the builders solicitor this morning in full reimbursement of our deposit. To say I was shocked was an understatement. He obviously knew that we had a really srong case against him. At least its all over now. The only thing is that there was no mention of all the stuff that we have in the house(we put in all the appliances, fancy rads, wall mounted fire etc etc. About €5000 i value). Would anybody think that we will have a problem getting these back. Surely he cant just keep them. My solicitor is not back from holiday till next week so I havnt discussed this with him yet.


 


Dub1 - an amazing story - glad you had a good outcome. I am amazed at the competence(sic) of our esteemed professional classes in dragging this one out for so long - how many charters and ethics codes do you think have been compromised in the last nine months of dealing with lawyers, architects etc. No wonder the country is in the mess it is.

Big hand to your engineer who seems to be the most ethical person you have had to deal with - he/she deserves a serious pint on Friday.

Re the fittings....if you paid for them directly to the suppliers then go back in and take them out ( not break in obviously) as they are your property. More difficult if you paid this ( so called ) builder.



Best of luck with your next venture - you have had a lucky/timely escape - hope your next project goes better.


BTW -was anyone doing any work on 14 November ?!


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## dub1 (13 Feb 2009)

Thanks. Luckily I paid for everything myself and have all the recieps so I'm guessing there shouldnt be a problem here. I agree about the engineer. He was excellent. If anybody is in the market for hiring a structural engineer just ask for his details. It was a very small amount very well spent.


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## Bronte (13 Feb 2009)

I'm so glad this case worked out for you and thanks for coming back with the good news.  I think you were very lucky the deposit was held by the builder's solicitor and not the builder.  You are now in the happy position of being able to purchase in a buyer's market.


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## dtwhaler (13 Feb 2009)

Surely the deposit had to stay with the builders solicitor until the sale closed ?

Well done Dub1.


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## mercman (13 Feb 2009)

Dub1, Congratulations. Did the Barrister for whom I gavce you the details not revert to you ?? Concerning your items, as suggested, go in and take them back. If you can't get them or he won't release them, then it is a theft and report the matter to the Guards.


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## dub1 (15 Feb 2009)

Thanks.Thats not a bad idea regarding reporting the matter to the Gardai if he dosent allow us to take the items. To be honest it would suit me if he made me an offer on everything thats there. At this stage it would mean taking everything out and storing them. I'd also be concerned that certain 'partsp of the appliances would conveniently go missing. Someone advised me to claim against him for costs(my solicitor, barrister, and engineer costs etc). Does anyone think that I should go this route or should I just let things lie.


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## dub1 (26 Feb 2009)

Hi. Im back looking for advice. I finally spoke to my solicitor today regarding the goods that I have in the house that I paid for. He is taking the nicey nicey approach with the builders solicitor regarding us taking our goods in case they are difficult. Personally I dont see how they can be seeing as I have reciepts for everything and can prove that they are mine. Regarding costs he does not want to pursue these. I'm basically talking about my solicitors costsand the engineers costs(see part of an email that he sent me today after our conversation),
"I do not want to address the issue with costs with him because I believe that we have been saved the most extradionary battle for the next two years which could have resulted in negative for us and therefore I want us all to take a breath to realise what could have been a very bad situation. I believe that if I can get the return of the goods, it will only be done by being extremely polite.
As we discussed initially (and thank you for the payment of fees it is always welcome) the costs are always a matter for the person instructing the Solicitor and the Fee on the basis of the time spent. While I appreciate that it should not be your responsibility. It will be counter-productive to seek these. Take an overview and we will talk soon".
Does anybody agree wit this view. Am I being greedy.I dont think that I am. I feel that seeing as the builder let us out of the contract its more or less an admission that the property was not habitable so why should I have incurred any costs at all regarding this property. Any advice is welcome. Thanks


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## Bronte (27 Feb 2009)

I think your solicitors letter is very good advice.  Looks like a really good solicitor in my opinion but I'm not sure he's be happy to have his reply on here.
 I do understand how you are out his costs and the goods cost but you've really gotton out of a terrible situation, not your fault I know and sometimes it's just best to accept that and walk away a happy man.  You did win after all.  Dub1 isn't that enough?


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## dub1 (28 Feb 2009)

thanks. I think that you are right. There is no point in me putting myself through more stress. to be honest I cant see the builder witholding my stuff. It just wouldnt make sense. And after thinking things through my solicitor is at the end of the day looking out for my intrests. Time to start househunting again.


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