# Traffic deaths versus suicide



## legend99 (25 Oct 2006)

While being totally sympathetic to any people out there who might have lost loved ones to car accidents does anyone else find it curious that death by car accident receives so much publicity relative to death by suicide. 
457 people died by their own hand in 2004, 374 died in car accidents in 2004. While being conscious of how terrible last weekend was in particular, why is there not such an out pouring of anger over the higher rate of suicide?


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## dontaskme (25 Oct 2006)

For one thing, for every death on the roads there are something like 4 people seriously injured. 
Dangerous drivers are a hazard to themselves and to others, potential suicides are usually more hazard to themselves alone.


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## NorfBank (25 Oct 2006)

People die in car accidents. Suicide is not accidental.


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## Sunny (25 Oct 2006)

You raise a fair point. I certainly agree that the problem of suicide especially in young men doesn't get the coverage that it deserves. Guess there is still a sense of taboo or lack of understanding about mental health in this country. How many times have I heard someone say "what have you to be depressed about?"


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## daltonr (25 Oct 2006)

At least some of the fatalities in Road accidents are suicides, so the difference in numbers is even greater.

The difference in attention given to the two types of death is staggering.
Constant attention and advertising campaigns for Road Safety, and little or no attention given to the persistently high levels of suicide, particularly among young males.

If these young men were dying from some unknown virus it would be front page news and the story wouldn't go away.   For goodness sake the government issued iodine tablets because of a little media fuss about the remote possibility of a nuclear disaster.

And yet these young men are dying in many cases from an illness.  But the illness has a mental component.  The rest of us are confident that we can't catch it, so there's no story.

At the very minimum if the number of road deaths per month is going to be reported, then the number of suicides should be too.   If you're not going to do one then don't do the other.

Of course the reason why road deaths get talked about a lot more than suicide by your politicians is that road deaths for the most part are caused by the actions of the citiziens.  They can claim that they are doing everything in their power and it's all the motorists fault.

Discussing suicide would open up a whole can of worms about how those with mental illness have been and continue to be treated.  And your politicians would much rather talk about what you've done wrong than what they've done wrong.

Until they can actually say honestly that they have done a good job of caring for those with mental illness, there is not going to be any serious national debate about suicide.

Incidently, I'm not saying that all suicide is caused by mental illness, just that both topics are linked, and discussion of one leads to discussion of the other, which your government doesn't want.

-Rd


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## ludermor (25 Oct 2006)

Good point about some road accidents being sucides. i think the actual number of sucides is far higher. I know of a few old men at home who died and suspision was of suicide but most people would be afraid to say it.


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## Gordanus (25 Oct 2006)

daltonr said:


> Discussing suicide would open up a whole can of worms about how those with mental illness have been and continue to be treated.
> 
> -Rd



Bravo, Dalton!   This issue is shoved under the carpet and nobody wants to address it.  The mental health services in this country are a disgrace and are aimed at medicating everyone rather than addressing root causes.  The Commission for Mental Health recently brought out a report on the views of 'service users' (ie patients) which were very revealing.


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## legend99 (25 Oct 2006)

Yea, I brought up the issue to see what peoples feelings were. As for "People die in car accidents. Suicide is not accidental"
well should people who die in car accidents because they are going 100+Mph deserve more sympathy than someone who dies by suicide because they feel let down by every aspect of society? Should we as a society be more ashamed of ourselves becasue of people who kill themselves by driving at crazy speeds or be more ashamed because of people who feel so let down that look at having no other option?


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## micamaca (25 Oct 2006)

daltonr said:


> For goodness sake the government issued iodine tablets because of a little media fuss about the remote possibility of a nuclear disaster.-Rd


 

And I still have mine!!! Am going to show my children how forward thinking our government was in the good ole days!!! 

On a more serious note, I would have far more sympathy for people who feel on the verge of committing suicide than for the absolute ejits I see who nearly knock me sideways off the road because I'll never be driving fast enough for them...no sympathy for them...I'm fed up with them, they annoy the hell out of me, I have my eyes out on stalks sometimes trying to guess what they will do next. They never get caught by the guards when I'm around.  I saw some judge banned a guy from driving for ten years and jailed him too for 2 years I think... that's a start. There is nothing to deter these ejits or make them wake up to reality. 

My sympathies do go out to the families of anyone who has been killed in an accident...these are the people left to deal with it and live with it. As are the people who are left behind after a suicide...I have no understanding of this as thank God, it hasn't touched my circle yet. But I often wonder that there must have been another route to try first before that last awful step. But again, I have no experience of this, just compassion for those touched by it.


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## Purple (25 Oct 2006)

I agree that there is a completely unjustifiable disparity in the media’s coverage of these two phenomenons. I do not have the figures but I suspect that the HSE spends a lot more on mental health treatment than most people would guess. The issue is how much do they spend on mental health education. 
There is also still a social stigma attached to suicide amongst older people. It is not something that many people talk about openly. For suicide to be seen as the real tragedy that it is this stigma has to be removed.
Mental health, and suicide amongst young men in particular, is a very complex issue. There are many factors both genetic and environmental that are at play when someone becomes depressed and/or suicidal. Because it is complex it also requires complex and subtle solutions. No politician ever got re-elected for being subtle and complex.   
Medication is an essential part of the solution in many cases, as is ECT. Both of these are very unfashionable at the moment in the mainstream media but they are only a bad idea if they are used to mask a root cause that is not being addressed in other ways.
While I find it hard to have any sympathy for any of those killed in cars that crash at high speeds I feel a huge amount of sympathy for their families. On the other hand I have huge sympathy for those who feel so empty, alone and hopeless that they take their own life. This issue of comparative culpability between suicide and road deaths is interesting and legitimate but it does not address the real issues. Both are sickening and useless wastes of life, both devastate families and both can be minimised.


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## terrysgirl33 (25 Oct 2006)

Suicide isn't reported in the media, as far as I understand it, because reporting it tends to give rise to a lot of copycat suicides.  Therefore, there is a code of conduct that individual suicides aren't reported.


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## MOB (25 Oct 2006)

"Therefore, there is a code of conduct that individual suicides aren't reported."

This may have been true in the past, though I suspect that deference to next of kin was a bigger factor;  But I am afraid I do not believe that today's newspapers and broadcast media observe any such code out of any sort of noble reason.  There is nothing whatever off limits or beyond the bounds of taste if will sell more newspapers.  The truth, I rather suspect, is the more prosaic reason that suicide reports are not seen as something which will help to sell newspapers


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## olddog (27 Oct 2006)

*Re: Traffic deaths versus suicide versus .....*

Add the two of these and it is still less than the number who die by accident ( wrong drugs given, MRSA etc )  in hospitals around the country.


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## zag (27 Oct 2006)

The code of conduct you talk about is the same one that leads RTE and the newspapers to report that "Gardai are not looking for anyone else in relation to the incident" the day after a death has been reported, or " . . . was killed when his car veered off the road in the early hours.  No other vehicles were involved."

I think it is a shame that these deaths are not reported for what they are - why bother using code words to effectively disguise a suicide or a likely case of drunken driving leading to loss of control and death ?  The level of alcohol should be a matter of record where post mortem results indicate excessive levels.  Not reporting the likely cause of death (obviously this can be contentious and sensitive) only leads to the situation where people underestimate the real level of certain events and contributes to the 'it will never happen to me' culture.

z


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## dontaskme (27 Oct 2006)

MOB said:


> "Therefore, there is a code of conduct that individual suicides aren't reported."
> 
> This may have been true in the past, though I suspect that deference to next of kin was a bigger factor; But I am afraid I do not believe that today's newspapers and broadcast media observe any such code out of any sort of noble reason. There is nothing whatever off limits or beyond the bounds of taste if will sell more newspapers. The truth, I rather suspect, is the more prosaic reason that suicide reports are not seen as something which will help to sell newspapers


 
There is probably a legal issue, media don't want to report a suspected suicide as suicide, as if it is not, they could leave themselves open to libel charges, if a coroner were to give a verdict other than suicide at an inquest.


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## ubiquitous (27 Oct 2006)

zag said:


> I think it is a shame that these deaths are not reported for what they are - why bother using code words to effectively disguise a suicide



To protect the sensitivities of relatives perhaps? 


zag said:


> ...or a likely case of drunken driving leading to loss of control and death ?


The key word here is "likely". What you seem to be advocating is that the "likely" causes of suicides and road accidents are publicised even when there is uncertainty about these factors. You forget that we already have a system for determining and thereafter publicising the cause of deaths arising other than via natural causes, ie inquests. As someone whose own family has sadly experienced a tragic bereavement, I would have been horrified if the media had seen fit to jump to conclusions about that case in advance of, or even after, the inquest.


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## zag (27 Oct 2006)

ubiquitous - my sympathies regarding your family loss.

I think you mis-understand my point at least partly.  I fully accept that relatives sensitivities need to be taken into account in reporting incidents and that each one involves an individual with a unique story and a unique set of values.  I accept that there is scope for unwanted and unneeded sensationalism and much harm.  However, I believe that while using what appear to be code or stock phrases might provide some comfort for relatives at a difficult time it actually provides a dis-service to the rest of the population by obfuscating the situation and the scale of the issue nationally.

I also accept that we have courts of law and coroners courts to adjudicate on matters of law and causes of death and that they are there for a good reason - I don't think we should start implementing a new way of determining causes of death just so they can be reported on the news within 24 hours.  However I did use the word 'likely' with good reason - it is possible for Gardai and medical personnel to form a reasonable view as to the blood alcohol level in a deceased person (within time limits of course) and allied with other circumstantial evidence (like being seated in the drivers seat of a crashed car) come to the conclusion that alcohol was (or wasn't as the measurements indicate) a likely contributory factor.  Where they are unable to form a view then by all means they shouldn't enter into speculation, but where there is reasonable ciscrumstantial evidence I believe it should be publicised.

My core point is that by skirting around the issue in individual cases the media and the authorities are helping maintain the fog around the scale of suicide and other causes of death.  They maintain relatives sensibilities, but they fail to educate the public at large.

It may well be said that the public need to educate themselves, but this can only happen with real and accurate information.

z


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## ubiquitous (27 Oct 2006)

Hi zag

I agree to a point. That said the issue of "copycat" suicides is a very real one. There is strong reason to believe that increased coverage of suicides has prompted more people to take their own lives. I also personally suspect that a parallel phenomenon happens occasionally in relation to road deaths - ie a certain category of young, male driver imitate the behaviour that caused a previous road tragedy. For example I would not be surprised if other cases of the so-called "chicken" driving "game" crop up in the next few weeks following the Monaghan tragedy last weekend. Needless to say, I hope I'm wrong.


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## daltonr (27 Oct 2006)

> There is strong reason to believe that increased coverage of suicides has prompted more people to take their own lives.


 
The question how many lives would you save by highlighting cases of drunk driving, and asleep at the wheel, and suicide in one vehicle collisions.

Then compare that with how many suicides you'd "cause" that wouldn't have happened anyway.   Are you causing suicide, or just causing a particular method for a suicide that would have happened anyway.

Probably a little of both. 

Forget about suicide for a minute.  The blood alcohol level of any driver involved in a fatal accident should be reported, even if the driver was one of the fatalities.  Similarly any other drugs found in their system.

These are things that can be determined objectively in a lab, you are not relying on the opinions of Gardai.

-Rd


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## Diziet (27 Oct 2006)

Purple said:


> Medication is an essential part of the solution in many cases, as is ECT. Both of these are very unfashionable at the moment in the mainstream media but they are only a bad idea if they are used to mask a root cause that is not being addressed in other ways.


 
I agree with most of the sentiments and especially the root cause one. However, medication is by no means unfashionable - antidepressant medication is one of the greatest money spinners for pharmaceutical companies. Controlled studies established that they are useful to around 40% of sufferers. Medication is usually the first line of treatment and almost never addresses the root cause. ECT is very controversial, especially as there are very few controlled studies and the side effects such as memory loss can be horrendous. Some patients never recover from the effects of ECT. It certain parts of the world it is banned altogether.


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## Purple (27 Oct 2006)

Diziet said:


> I agree with most of the sentiments and especially the root cause one. However, medication is by no means unfashionable - antidepressant medication is one of the greatest money spinners for pharmaceutical companies. Controlled studies established that they are useful to around 40% of sufferers. Medication is usually the first line of treatment and almost never addresses the root cause. ECT is very controversial, especially as there are very few controlled studies and the side effects such as memory loss can be horrendous. Some patients never recover from the effects of ECT. It certain parts of the world it is banned altogether.



Just to clarify; I meant that they are unfashionable in the media.
A lot of ill informed opinion is passed off as fact on these topics.
I agree with you about ECT. It should only be considered in specific cases and only after other options have been tried.


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## dontaskme (27 Oct 2006)

Diziet said:


> However, medication is by no means unfashionable - antidepressant medication is one of the greatest money spinners for pharmaceutical companies. Controlled studies established that they are useful to around 40% of sufferers.


 
And also that some such medications increase suicidal tendencies in young people.


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## Purple (27 Oct 2006)

dontaskme said:


> And also that some such medications increase suicidal tendencies in young people.


 Most medications have side effects. It's about balancing the possible risks with the possible benefits. Perhaps your statement should read “And also that some such medications may increase suicidal tendencies in young people”? I don’t think this has been shown conclusively. I am not involved in this area and have no first hand experience in this area but I don’t like the sensationalist way in which these topics are covered in the media.


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## dontaskme (27 Oct 2006)

Purple said:


> “And also that some such medications may increase suicidal tendencies in young people”? I don’t think this has been shown conclusively.


 
http://www.imb.ie/news.asp?nav=7&action=view&news_item_id=48

see Q3. "This new advice follows the receipt of new data in children under 18 which shows no benefit in the treatment of depressive illness and suggests an increase in the rate of reporting of suicidal thoughts and behaviour in this age group when treated with ....(removed brandname for paroxetine)."


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## ubiquitous (27 Oct 2006)

daltonr said:


> The question how many lives would you save by highlighting cases of drunk driving, and asleep at the wheel, and suicide in one vehicle collisions.



I actually don't believe that coverage of drunk driving cases has any effect in reducing the incidence of such cases. Drink-driving, drunk driving and road fatalities in general have been afforded pretty much saturation coverage in the Irish media in recent years, yet fatalities are soaring. I am beginning to suspect that the present publicity overkill is counterproductive, and may actually acting as advertisements for irresponsibility on the roads.


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## ClubMan (28 Oct 2006)

daltonr said:


> Forget about suicide for a minute.  The blood alcohol level of any driver involved in a fatal accident should be reported, even if the driver was one of the fatalities.  Similarly any other drugs found in their system.


Chances are the reporting of such accidents will precede the carrying out of a post mortem that would establish these details so it may be a moot point.


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## Superman (28 Oct 2006)

ubiquitous said:


> There is strong reason to believe that increased coverage of suicides has prompted more people to take their own lives.



This is apparently very true - Malcolm Gladwell in his book "Tipping Point" mentions this.  Even talking about suicides can prompt others to commit suicide as it opens up the possibility of suicide as an option to a given problem.


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## Gordanus (29 Oct 2006)

Purple said:


> I do not have the figures but I suspect that the HSE spends a lot more on mental health treatment than most people would guess. The issue is how much do they spend on mental health education.



[broken link removed]    "At present mental health receives just 7% of the health budget; by comparison, in the UK it stands at 12%, and is considered inadequate."

  "the share of the health budget for mental health services declined year on year to about half, in proportionate terms, the level it was in the early 1980s."

[broken link removed]    "The Views of Adult Users of the Public Sector Mental Health Services By Dr. Elizabeth A. Dunne, Ph.D, Department of Applied Psychology, University College Cork
The report provides detailed information on how service users experience mental health services within the public sector. One of the key findings of the study is that the current organisation of mental health services is inappropriate and unsuited to the needs of people with a mental illness. "


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## potnoodler (29 Oct 2006)

I don't think that there really is any credible statistics in Ireland for suicide, people left behind with the mess tend to be going through a very traumatic time and if any other cause of death can be blamed it generally will.
Rightly or wrongly the inquest will supply the "death by misadventure" verdict ad hoc, so don't know how they end up counting them.
I figure a lot stems from the old catholic  beliefs in suicide too, sadly  I speak from experience.


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## bskinti (30 Oct 2006)

dontaskme said:


> Dangerous drivers are a hazard to themselves and to others, potential suicides are usually more hazard to themselves alone.


Tell that to the families of thoes who are left at least in a road death the family will know what/why death was caused


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## dontaskme (30 Oct 2006)

bskinti said:


> Tell that to the families of thoes who are left at least in a road death the family will know what/why death was caused


My point was that dangerous drivers are a danger to pedestrians, cyclists, children, passengers and other drivers, and they kill and maim people others than themselves. 
In my view, the government has a duty to protect these people more than a duty to protect people who are intent on doing themselves harm. 
I agree that it is possible that more should be done for people who present themselves at a doctor's office for depression than prescribing an anti-depressant (some of which are not suitable for young people anyway) and telling them to call back in two weeks.


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## Ron Burgundy (3 Nov 2006)

money towards suicide in ireland in 2005 - 1.4 million

money towards road safety in 2005 - 29.6 million

that just shows the gulf in how it is looked at by the powers that be.

if any member here has suffered from depression in any way they would take the issue more seriously.

people how are depressed do more that kill them selves, drink, drugs, violence. all of which effect society.

Think of how much money is spent looking after drunks in hospital and drug addicts, some of these are people who suffer from depression and see drink and drugs as a way out.

I personally have suffered from depression for many years but didn't click with me until i read a book that described the symthoms and it was me......had more info been available i might have found out sooner and some dark years might have been brighter.


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## MOB (3 Nov 2006)

"money towards suicide in ireland in 2005 - 1.4 million
money towards road safety in 2005 - 29.6 million
that just shows the gulf in how it is looked at by the powers that be"

I agree that resolution of male suicide is an under-resourced area, but I don't think the above statistic (assuming accuracy) shows anything on its own.  After all, the road safety spend is not just about road deaths, but about all of the road injuries;  A far greater number of people are at risk on the roads than are ever at risk of suicide (though of course the risk for each person is much smaller).  Sorry to take the matter on a tangent, but misleading use of statistics is one of my pet peeves.   Comparison with the suicide spend in peer countries would IMHO be a far more useful benchmarking exercise.


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## Ron Burgundy (3 Nov 2006)

that stat was used in a discussion in newstalk between the head of the suicide prevention body and a road safety rep. It was to show that they are doing all they can but are grossly underfunded.

as i mentioned above, despression leads to other problems which also cost the state millions.


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## ubiquitous (3 Nov 2006)

MOB said:


> After all, the road safety spend is not just about road deaths, but about all of the road injuries;  A far greater number of people are at risk on the roads than are ever at risk of suicide (though of course the risk for each person is much smaller).



One particularly sad and tragic consequence of depression is that it profoundly affects the lives of a far greater number of people than those suffering from it. The most obvious category within this group includes friends and families of those suffering from depression. (You could say the same in relation to road accident casualties). Less obvious are victims of, and those affected by, crimes and other anti-social behaviour which arise as a result of depression and/or the misuse of anti-depression medication.


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## ubiquitous (3 Nov 2006)

For a number of reasons I have to be very careful in choosing my words on this topic. All I will say is that personal experience has led me to conclude that depressio  can be a root cause of, or a contributing factor towards,  a wide spectrum of destructive and anti-social behaviours. Not being a medic myself, I don't want to delve too deeply into the issue of use or misuse of anti-depressants, except perhaps to say that certain medications may have unanticipated, and (what I would limit myself to describe as) unpleasant, side effects.


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## Ron Burgundy (3 Nov 2006)

ubiquitous said:


> For a number of reasons I have to be very careful in choosing my words on this topic. All I will say is that personal experience has led me to conclude that depressio can be a root cause of, or a contributing factor towards, a wide spectrum of destructive and anti-social behaviours. Not being a medic myself, I don't want to delve too deeply into the issue of use or misuse of anti-depressants, except perhaps to say that certain medications may have unanticipated, and (what I would limit myself to describe as) unpleasant, side effects.


 
might i ask have you personly taken anti depressants ???


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## ubiquitous (3 Nov 2006)

no - btw I'm not sure if this is an appropriate question to ask... Neither, for reasons that will be obvious to some users of these pages, am I inclined to comment further on this topic.


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## Ron Burgundy (3 Nov 2006)

it is when you make claims about medication that has helped a lot of people, including me.

I am not a violent criminal or have no intention of becoming one, i am not involved in anti social behaviour either.

Depression is caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain, its a medical condition just like hayfever, you take medication that makes you better. But some of those steroids have side effects also like all medication.

next time you have a headache read the full instructions before you take a tablet, the list of side effects on those are just as long...............


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## ubiquitous (3 Nov 2006)

...


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## dontaskme (5 Nov 2006)

Ron Burgundy said:


> it is when you make claims about medication that has helped a lot of people, including me.
> 
> I am not a violent criminal or have no intention of becoming one, i am not involved in anti social behaviour either.
> 
> ...


 
Saying that depression is caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain is possibly to mistake the cart and horse. I would claim that depression is more likely to be caused by external factors and that the chemical imbalance is a symptom not the cause.

Taking medication may be effective for some people. However one of the side effects of _some_ of the medications is that young people may be more likely to suicide on the medication. 

From the point of view of the health system it makes more financial sense for a GP to prescribe some anti-depressants than for the health system to provide counselling to treat whatever the root causes are.


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## Ron Burgundy (5 Nov 2006)

dontaskme said:


> Saying that depression is caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain is possibly to mistake the cart and horse. I would claim that depression is more likely to be caused by external factors and that the chemical imbalance is a symptom not the cause


 
and you have proof of such a cliam ????

how you can tell someone suffering from depression that is beyond me, have you suffered from depression or takin the medication might i ask ????


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## dontaskme (5 Nov 2006)

Ron Burgundy said:


> and you have proof of such a cliam ????
> 
> how you can tell someone suffering from depression that is beyond me, have you suffered from depression or takin the medication might i ask ????


 
None of your business.

You have to look beyond the chemical imbalance for the root causes. It could be anyone or any number of things - grief after death of a loved one, unemployment, relationship problems, abuse, drug/alcohol problems, or it could just be that someone has a brain that, for whatever reason, is subject to a chemical imbalance.

If the root causes can be identified and worked through I would suggest that as a better solution than relying on medication.


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## ubiquitous (6 Nov 2006)

Ron Burgundy said:


> ....might i ask have you personly taken anti depressants ???





Ron Burgundy said:


> ... have you suffered from depression or takin the medication might i ask ????



Ron, I don't know what you are trying to achieve by quizzing other posters in this way. It will be impossible for us to discuss this topic properly if you persist in asking sensitive, personal questions of everyone whose opinion might differ from your own. God knows the issue is already distressing enough as it is...


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## Betsy Og (6 Nov 2006)

As a close relative of someone who has bi-polar ("manic") depression (broadly meaning can swing from low periods to high periods - and the highs arent all fun, insomnia, delusions etc etc) I think its clear that:

1. There certainly are cases of depression which are, primarily, due to chemical imbalances in the brain. This form of depression is genetic in nature and so every generation may have one or more suffers (a scary thought when thinking about the next generation). Sufferers of this form of depression will need medication, particularly when suffering the "peak" effects of depression - I dont particularly like the phrase "breakdowns" but thats probably the widely used term.

When someone is going through the horrors of the above then counsellling wont get through and medication is urgently needed to sustain life (maybe that sounds melodramatic but it aint far from the truth). Apart from treating the severe effects sufferers will probably need a maintenance level of medication to try to keep their mood stabilised (lithium etc. etc.).

2.  Apart from the above there is depression/stress/burnout/anxiety  brought on by life events and which, while it may need medication in the early stages, would be better dealt with in the long run by counselling and learning to cope.

Persons suffering from 1 above will of course be subject to 2 above, moreso than the general population, and therefore should also benefit from counselling. I.e. its often life events that trigger breakdowns.

It always amazes me how so many people think its an either/or situation - you either drug 'em to the eyeballs or you tell 'em get over it. Anyone suffering from depression should get counselling, even if they are convinced that its a purely chemical issue (may or may not be correct) because theres quite a bit to cope with. People without a definite "chemical component" to their depression should be primariy treated by counselling with a view to coming off medication in the long run (only medics can make this call - beware the "miracle curers" who say lay down your medication and come follow me ...).

At least I think the country is ready to discuss the issue. If the next generation get depression I hope it'll be ok to be open about it because all the "hiding" I've seen and been party to is just awful. I think I'll have to take a leaf out of Colm Meaney's book in The Snapper "Do you care what the neighbours think? **** the neighbours! "


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## Ron Burgundy (6 Nov 2006)

Betsy Og said:


> At least I think the country is ready to discuss the issue. If the next generation get depression I hope it'll be ok to be open about it because all the "hiding" I've seen and been party to is just awful. I think I'll have to take a leaf out of Colm Meaney's book in The Snapper "Do you care what the neighbours think? **** the neighbours! "


 
that sums it all up really.


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## liteweight (6 Nov 2006)

Very good post BetsyOg! I watched a documentary on Stephen Fry a while ago. In it he was very honest about his depression (bi-polar). For the first time I felt I understood what people who suffer depression really go through. It's a far cry from feeling a bit down and asking someone to pull themselves together, is asking the impossible. He interviewed a number of famous people who were fellow sufferers, in an effort to highlight the illness I suppose. I was amazed at the amount of wonderfully talented people he talked to.

When someone dies in a traffic accident it's undoubtedly a tragedy. Some die through their own foolishness or through the stupidity of others on the road. All leave people behind who cared and will continue to care for them. However, those left behind can rest assured that there was nothing they could do about the situation. The family in which a suicide occurs has not got this luxury. I imagine they spend the rest of their lives wondering 'if I had done something differently would they have ended their life today'. Of course the answer is that they couldn't ........


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## Gordanus (6 Nov 2006)

Betsy Og said:


> As a close relative of someone who has bi-polar ("manic") depression (broadly meaning can swing from low periods to high periods - and the highs arent all fun, insomnia, delusions etc etc) I think its clear that:
> 
> 1. There certainly are cases of depression which are, primarily, due to chemical imbalances in the brain. This form of depression is genetic in nature and so every generation may have one or more suffers (a scary thought when thinking about the next generation).
> 
> At least I think the country is ready to discuss the issue.



Hi Betsy while I'd agree with your sentiments, I'd have to disagree with you on facts - and I have to admit an interest in the area as I am a mental health professional.    There's a huge difference between bipolar disorder (used to be known as manic depression) and depression.  They are qualitatively different.  There is a biological and genetic componant in BPD, but we don't really know about depression.  We don't really know the biology of ordinary depression; we don't know how the brain chemistry works.  We do know that depression brings about changes in brain chemistry and we know that these changes can be reversed through medication OR by psychotherapy!  We do tend to tell people the easy story - take these tablets, and your brain chemistry will become right again, because the real story is very very complicated and not many of us really understand it!

But when you consider that 1 in every 10 people will suffer from depression at some stage of their lives (conservative estimate) I too hope that the talking will increase and the stigma lessen.

Kramer TAM. Mechanisms of Action. MedGenMed 3(1), 2001 [formerly published in Medscape Psychiatry & Mental Health eJournal 6(1), 2001. Available at: http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/430539


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## ubiquitous (7 Nov 2006)

liteweight said:


> However, those left behind can rest assured that there was nothing they could do about the situation. The family in which a suicide occurs has not got this luxury. I imagine they spend the rest of their lives wondering 'if I had done something differently would they have ended their life today'.........



This is an incorrect and cruel generalisation. 

There are many, many families out there who face a direct risk of suicide of a loved one on a daily basis.  They do their best to protect them but only can do so much, and sadly once someone takes their own life, the clock can never be turned back. The process of bereavement is always difficult for close relatives when someone dies prematurely. I'm not sure if it is aided by well-meaning but misguided platitudes such as the above.


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## Betsy Og (7 Nov 2006)

Gordanus, I'm not sure I see where we differ tbh. I think that, in the minds of the general public, bi-polar is a specific category of "depression". Maybe I've strayed outside some technical definition of "depression" but my central point is that all forms of depression are not the same and to try to one size fits all approach, or to treat medication and psychotherapy/conselling as conflicting or mutually exclusive potential solutions surely does a misservice to sufferers.


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## liteweight (7 Nov 2006)

ubiquitous said:


> There are many, many families out there who face a direct risk of suicide of a loved one on a daily basis.  They do their best to protect them but only can do so much, and sadly once someone takes their own life, the clock can never be turned back. The process of bereavement is always difficult for close relatives when someone dies prematurely.



Isn't that what I said? It's certainly what I meant! To clarify, I feel that those who lose a loved one through an accident suddenly can do nothing about the circumstances. Those left behind by a suicide FEEL they should have been able to so something.  That doesn't mean that they didn't do all in their power while the person was alive. It's just an added burden to bear during the grieving process.


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## ubiquitous (7 Nov 2006)

I see what you mean. 

I think I took your comment a little out of context. Apologies for that.


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## Ron Burgundy (7 Nov 2006)

i truely believe that not people not touched by this understand ( outside medical professionals in the area) how much it can change you life without help.

I am a man, therefore child birth is alien to me, i could not speak about it as i will never go through it. yet so many peole speak about depression when they have never gone through it personally or as a cose friend or family member. I suffer from depression and here is a little insight into it from my side of things.

Its a strange thing to describe.

You have a good life, a nice car, a lovely house, a good business, great friends, close family. yet your still not feeling right.

You start a cycle of worrying about little things and you worry and worry and three hours later you can't remember what you started worrying or thinking about and still you think on.

All food tastes the same and bland, you eat cause you have to but gain no pleasure from food. Even if it is your favourite or the finest food on the planet.

You go to get and you head starts racing about everything and you can't sleep. eventually you go to sleep and when you wake in the morning you have no energy to get up for the day and would rather just lie there.

You lose interest in your favourite things, maybe its golf or films or whatever but you have no interest in it at all and no motivation to do those things you enjoyed.

You can get moody because you can't figure out why you feel this way and push away friends and family. 

This is where the cycle of worry and thoughts get worse and you begin to think negative about everything, work, friends etc.

you feel you can talk to no one becuase of the negative attitude in this country towards depression, this can lead to the ultimate ending which is mentioned through out this thread.

I am lucky in that i don't really care what people think of me, i read a book and realised i had suffered in this way for many years, in a way it destroyed the majority of my 20's but i got help and am in a different place even if i'm back on medication after 2 years ( it came back at me this year).

Ireland needs to wake up to this and treat depression suffers with the respect and care they need and deserve.

Sorry for the long post but i just wanted people to have a small insight into depression from someone you suffers from it.

Ron.


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## dodo (7 Nov 2006)

How many of these single car crash's are actually suicide ?


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## Ron Burgundy (7 Nov 2006)

dodo said:


> How many of these single car crash's are actually suicide ?


 
do be honest ii don't think anyone knows.


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## Gordanus (9 Nov 2006)

Betsy Og said:


> Gordanus, I'm not sure I see where we differ tbh. I think that, in the minds of the general public, bi-polar is a specific category of "depression".



I guess that's why the name has been changed from Manic Depression to Bipolar Disorder.   There's definately a genetic componant to BPD, but not to depression.   No great difference as you say, and maybe I wouldn't be as aware of how the public views it.


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## nlgbbbblth (11 Nov 2006)

Every so often a national newspaper will publish an article on suicide. The article usually quotes statistics and there is a certain amount of hand-wringing in relation to 'the stigma of suicide' / 'facing up to suicide' / 'not sweeping suicide under the carpet'. The overriding message is that the root causes of suicide should be addressed and people should confront rather than deny.

Which brings me to the media's reporting of suicide. If a person dies accidentally, of natural causes, as a result of an assault or is murdered their death will be reported as such. However if they commit suicide the reports are inevitably fudged with banal and intelligence-insulting euphemisms such as 'not looking for anyone else in connection', 'fell in front of train', 'entered the river' etc. Frequently a coroner's report will state a verdict of accidental death when it was anything but.

The reason for such reporting is usually given as 'to protect the family' etc. But how can a family face up to a suicide if nobody will dare speak the dreaded 's word'. 

On one hand we have the media bemoaning increasing suicide numbers and complaining about people have their heads in the sand about it while simultaneously refusing to tackle the practical issue head on and print the actual facts when it comes to reporting one. This double standard filters downwards to ordinary citizens who will speak in hushed tones about the deceased and rarely mention the why and how of his/her death.

My personal experience in this regard stems from when my uncle committed suicide in 1983. At no stage throughout the years did anybody in my family admit that he took his own life and it was only much later that I accidentally discovered the truth.


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## liteweight (11 Nov 2006)

Gordanus said:


> I guess that's why the name has been changed from Manic Depression to Bipolar Disorder.   There's definately a genetic componant to BPD, but not to depression.   No great difference as you say, and maybe I wouldn't be as aware of how the public views it.



I would have thought that the general public should be educated as to the difference especially as there's a genetic component to BPD. To me, BPD is a manic high followed by a dramatic low. During both of these the person can put themselves in danger, either by taking unneccessary risk during the high and thoughts of suicide and worthlessnes when low. What I understand as depression is what Ron Burgundy describes above, a total lack of zest for anything in life, feelings of worthlessness and, a 'what's the use' attitude (?), which creeps in and cannot be overcome no matter how many people tell the person to pull themselves together. They cannot lift themselves up.

I'd imagine that a lot of so called accidents are actually suicides. Sparing the family from reporting it is no bad thing IMO. Not everyone is strong enough to stand up to the glare of publicity in the wake of the death of a loved one.  In the old days Catholicism viewed suicide as a sin (maybe it still does?) and the person could not be buried on hallowed ground. I think this gave rise to a lot of secrecy surrounding a suicide.

Also some insurance policies do not pay out if the death is a suicide, so declaring it an accident is beneficial to those left behind.


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## Gordanus (12 Nov 2006)

liteweight said:


> I would have thought that the general public should be educated as to the difference especially as there's a genetic component to BPD.



See my earlier remarks regarding Mental health budgets!   We barely have enough to provide a(n outdated) acute service, never mind preventative work.


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## liteweight (13 Nov 2006)

Gordanus said:


> See my earlier remarks regarding Mental health budgets!   We barely have enough to provide a(n outdated) acute service, never mind preventative work.



Well that's another question for the politician's when they come calling. My list is becoming very long!


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## Betsy Og (13 Nov 2006)

Shouldnt general mental health education be a feature of the education system & society in general.

We spend millions on anti-smoking & responsible use of acohol - and thats fair enough - but a few bob towards educating people about mental health issues would be money well spent. A recent report said most people dont know that they can get help or where to get it.

If we keep the "big house with high walls" philosophy then its not surprising the general population will have little understanding of people with mental illness. I dont really buy the view that giving info about mental health "puts the idea of suicide" into peoples minds. 

I genuinely think that its a popular pecreption that anyone who is or was ill is "permanently gone", a constant danger to themselves and others. This is not true for the majorty, it is true for a minority and to deny that might be to not care appopriately for the minority. Maybe its the 'therapy culture' of the US but I'd imagine theres a bit more openness about it there, in Ireland people tend to recoil in fear if it comes up in conversation, or resort to easy sterotypes - "sure wasnt he in hospital before..."  (nuff said being the implication).


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## ubiquitous (13 Nov 2006)

nlgbbbblth said:


> But how can a family face up to a suicide if nobody will dare speak the dreaded 's word'.
> 
> This double standard filters downwards to ordinary citizens who will speak in hushed tones about the deceased and rarely mention the why and how of his/her death.
> 
> My personal experience in this regard stems from when my uncle committed suicide in 1983. At no stage throughout the years did anybody in my family admit that he took his own life and it was only much later that I accidentally discovered the truth.



In fairness, Ireland has changed a lot since the 1980s. My own experience, based both on a bereavement through suicide within my own family, and various suicide tragedies in my own locality over the years is that the "double standard" to which you refer is a now a thing of the past. When suicides happen nowadays, my own perception is that the family, friends & community of the deceased make no effort to obscure or deny what has happened and the reasons behind the tragedy. This open approach, far from shaming or stigmatising anyone, greatly helps the bereaved to cope with, and recover from, the bereavement.

Juries in coroners courts are reluctant to deliver a verdict of death by suicide unless the facts of the case leave no uncertainty that the death was by suicide, eg if a note is left, or if the victim had attempted suicide in the past. While this situation is not ideal, it is still better than having juries jumping to conclusions and delivering suicide verdicts in cases where it is by no means certain that suicide was involved.


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## Chamar (13 Nov 2006)

ubiquitous said:


> In fairness, Ireland has changed a lot since the 1980s. My own experience, based both on a bereavement through suicide within my own family, and various suicide tragedies in my own locality over the years is that the "double standard" to which you refer is a now a thing of the past. When suicides happen nowadays, my own perception is that the family, friends & community of the deceased make no effort to obscure or deny what has happened and the reasons behind the tragedy. This open approach, far from shaming or stigmatising anyone, greatly helps the bereaved to cope with, and recover from, the bereavement.
> 
> Juries in coroners courts are reluctant to deliver a verdict of death by suicide unless the facts of the case leave no uncertainty that the death was by suicide, eg if a note is left, or if the victim had attempted suicide in the past. While this situation is not ideal, it is still better than having juries jumping to conclusions and delivering suicide verdicts in cases where it is by no means certain that suicide was involved.



While I agree that Ireland has changed a lot since the 80s I still think there is an awful stigma attached to suicide. And to be honest death in general. It's not just a case of the dreaded  's' word but also the dreaded 'd' word. And I would guess that is similar across many cultures. 

I haven't personally been affected by suicide but I live with bereavement and I can tell you that in that alone there is stigma. People look at you funny, avoid you, say the most ridiculous things if they speak to you, drop you, gossip about you etc etc. I really mean that. If someone commits suicide I can imagine it is like that x 100 not to mention the added grief that it must bring. 

I have to say it does bug me that we have endless campaigns to prevent car accidents and as far as I can see, NOTHING to help stop suicide. Pick up any local newspaper in the country and there will almost always be an obituary of someone who died 'in tragic circumstances'.


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## ubiquitous (13 Nov 2006)

Chamar said:


> While I agree that Ireland has changed a lot since the 80s I still think there is an awful stigma attached to suicide.



This opinion does certainly not tally with my own family's experience. If you had based your opinion on actual experience, fair enough, but otherwise as someone who "has been there" so to speak, I think your theory is a bit dubious.



Chamar said:


> I haven't personally been affected by suicide but I live with bereavement and I can tell you that in that alone there is stigma. People look at you funny, avoid you, say the most ridiculous things if they speak to you, drop you, gossip about you etc etc. I really mean that. If someone commits suicide I can imagine it is like that x 100 not to mention the added grief that it must bring.



Again this does not tally with my family's experience. Death is never an easy thing to deal with. It is quite understandable and forgiveable if some people are uncomfortable in bereavement situations. Everyone means well, even if they sometimes seem clumsy, self-conscious or awkward in dealing with bereaved relatives. On the other hand,  bereavement (especially after a tragedy such as suicide) would be a lot harder to deal with were it not for support of neighbours, friends, relatives.



Chamar said:


> I have to say it does bug me that we have endless campaigns to prevent car accidents and as far as I can see, NOTHING to help stop suicide.


Agreed.


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## liteweight (13 Nov 2006)

I think the attitude of a suicide's family has, quite rightly, changed too. In the past there was a stigma attached to suicide...mainly religious induced. My only experience of this stigma was when I was very young and a neighbour's daughter committed suicide. My mother was aked by a few neighbours if she knew what happened. The family in question were viewed as odd anyway and my mother was the only person they really spoke to on the road. My mother replied that she did not know what had happened...all that she knew was a neighbours child had died and that the family needed support. I remember thinking my mother must have a terrible memory because she'd been told last night that the girl took too many tablets!!

Anyway the neighbours decided they should not visit the family. My mother went inside, made soup and sandwiches and a casserole. I knew better than to ask what was going on (when she looked like that, you stayed quiet). When she was finished she put on her hat and coat, gathered up the food and walked down the street to the neighbour's house. She had me in tow because I was too young to leave in the house alone. 

Mrs. X opened the door and immediately began shouting at my mother. Can't remember it all but things like.......you with your perfect family, are you down here to gloat? My mother told her that a dreadful thing had happened, she was sure it was very hard but she and her family had to eat. The woman asked her if she was boasting that she had plenty of food??? My mother stood her ground and was eventually allowed into the house. The last thing I remember is Mrs. X sobbing in my mother's arms...I was thrown out into the back garden to play.

I asked my mother about this years later. She said Mrs. X was from a small island and didn't really ever settle in to Dublin life. The priest had refused to give the suicide last rites and the general concensus among the neighbours was to stay away but they did whisper and stare.

So although the situation is still not great with regard to public awareness etc. it's getting there I think. I doubt the above would happen today and we're better as a society for it.


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## ney001 (13 Nov 2006)

I have to say i am absolutely terrible at dealing with death - I have no idea what to say to people so I would be one of those people who say ridiculous things - I think nerves get the better of me.  I remember one time I was at the funeral of a friends father, I got in line to shake hands with the family when I got to my friend's brother, I asked him 'how's it goin?'  .  I can assure you i did not mean to be funny or smart - I just get very nervous when dealing with things like this - I think most people would understand that.  

Regarding suicide - I think especially in smaller rural towns there is a stigma attached to it, I have known of (unfortunately )  a few young men who have killed themselves over the years in my OH's home town and when someone is talking about the family, they will always say 'ah you know the Murphy's - the ones who's son killed themselves last year' - forever more that family will be remembered as the family who had a suicide.


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## ubiquitous (13 Nov 2006)

ney001 said:


> they will always say 'ah you know the Murphy's - the ones who's son killed themselves last year' - forever more that family will be remembered as the family who had a suicide.



Does that equal a stigma? Again as someone who has "been there", I don't think it does... Its simply a fact of life.  There is a big difference between a stigma and a reference point.


You might as well say,  'ah you know the Murphy's - the ones who won the Lotto' or 'the ones whose father died of cancer last year'


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## liteweight (13 Nov 2006)

ubiquitous said:


> Does that equal a stigma? Again as someone who has "been there", I don't think it does... Its simply a fact of life.  There is a big difference between a stigma and a reference point.
> 
> 
> You might as well say,  'ah you know the Murphy's - the ones who won the Lotto' or 'the ones whose father died of cancer last year'



But you seem to have a very well balanced approach to dealing with it. I think for some, to be defined by a suicide in one's family, is tantamount to a stigma.


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## ney001 (13 Nov 2006)

Well I see what you mean but the way I've heard it said (usually by OH's mother) - it's not a reference point, it's usually accompanied by the eyes to indicate that there is problems there (i.e in the family).  My OH's cousin killed himself a few years ago and nobody in the family talks about it - if his name comes up in conversation, you can see they older members of the family looking away, they feel quite ashamed I think!.  I know that this is the wrong attitude but again, it's a rural area where everybody knows everybody else and I think they would rather that it's just forgotten about.

Liteweight - out of interest do priests nowadays give the last rites? - I assume they do!


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## ubiquitous (13 Nov 2006)

ney001 said:


> Well I see what you mean but the way I've heard it said (usually by OH's mother) - it's not a reference point, it's usually accompanied by the eyes to indicate that there is problems there (i.e in the family).



With all due respects, she is the person with the problem if her opinions are that odd...



> Liteweight - out of interest do priests nowadays give the last rites? - I assume they do!



What a question to ask!!! Of course they do, and have done so for decades.


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## ney001 (13 Nov 2006)

Of course she's the one with the problem - I wasn't suggesting otherwise! 

Don't hold with religion much so don't know the correct protocol - sorry if this offends you so much


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## ubiquitous (13 Nov 2006)

liteweight said:


> I think for some, to be defined by a suicide in one's family, is tantamount to a stigma.



How do you know? I. Have you or members of your family, for example, participated in suicide bereavement groups? If not, its easy for you to talk, and perhaps you should re-examine your prejudices, at the very least because they may well be offensive to others...


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## ubiquitous (13 Nov 2006)

ney001 said:


> Of course she's the one with the problem - I wasn't suggesting otherwise!



Why then did you say that the families of suicide victims carry a stigma? 

Why should they be concerned with, (and more particularly, why should *you* extrapolate theories from) the opinions of someone who sounds like they live in the valley of the squinting windows?



ney001 said:


> Don't hold with religion much so don't know the correct protocol - sorry if this offends you so much



Come on...!! Have you *never* heard of a funeral taking place of a suicide victim??!!!


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## ney001 (13 Nov 2006)

When I said there was a stigma attached to suicide I am not saying for one second that there should be - but based on my own experience and talking to various people in said town - then yes there is a stigma attached to it - I am truly delighted to see that you have had a different experience to this but as an outsider in a small town I have seen things a little bit differently.  The older generation in particular have difficulty with it (in my experience).


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## liteweight (13 Nov 2006)

ubiquitous said:


> How do you know? I. Have you or members of your family, for example, participated in suicide bereavement groups? If not, its easy for you to talk, and perhaps you should re-examine your prejudices, at the very least because they may well be offensive to others...



Yes.....on both counts. What are my prejudices Ubiquitous?


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## gianni (13 Nov 2006)

I haven't had a chance to read entire thread... but since this is a public forum posters should consider the following points as outlined on page 4 of this document released by the Samaritans :

[broken link removed]


If anyone needs someone to talk to the Samaritans can be contacted here:

In the Republic of Ireland dial *1850 60 90 90*, for the cost of a local call.


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## ajapale (13 Nov 2006)

Hi gianni,

This is a good point. Perhaps posters might have a look at the Samaritans Guidlines before posting on the subject of suicide?

Thanks,

aj

[broken link removed]


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## Betsy Og (13 Nov 2006)

Good to see that the Samaritans document encourages talking about the issue. I think that if the messages of understanding and sources of help/information could go out to people it would be a positive start.

Its often said that Ireland has become more hard boiled and that, in an era of such success and conspicuous consumption its particularly hard if you feel a failure.

One issue thats particularly scary, and which I dont have insight into, is "clusters". Surely an swift response team to give talks in schools etc is needed in such situations. I recall seeing something about public talks in Fermoy (or maybe it was Middleton) which was particularly affected a few years back.


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## dontaskme (14 Nov 2006)

Betsy Og said:


> Good to see that the Samaritans document encourages talking about the issue. I think that if the messages of understanding and sources of help/information could go out to people it would be a positive start.
> 
> Its often said that Ireland has become more hard boiled and that, in an era of such success and conspicuous consumption its particularly hard if you feel a failure.
> 
> One issue thats particularly scary, and which I dont have insight into, is "clusters". Surely an swift response team to give talks in schools etc is needed in such situations. I recall seeing something about public talks in Fermoy (or maybe it was Middleton) which was particularly affected a few years back.


 
Midleton, I'd say.


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