# State Pension (Non Contributory) Query



## JQ2002 (24 Jun 2009)

Ok, scenairo below presented to me;

Widow, living alone, was means tested for pension, qualifed for €30 per week approx. Widow has shares, most of which are significantly devalued. However, one holding is doing well and generates a small income.

Situation is that widow now has expenses which she needs to pay, she is thinking of disposing some of the valuable shares to generate cash. Doing this will also decrease her overall capital for assessment to the pension. 

Bearing in mind that the disposal will give rise to a tax liability and the expenses will be paid from the cash straight away, does anyone know if there are certain criteria which prevent her from requesting a another assessment of means after the disposal?

I have heard that there maybe a 3 or 5 year time block between selling the investments and then being re-assessed, is this true? 

Having worked all her life, I would like to ensure she gets what she is entitled to.

Thanks


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## Black Sheep (24 Jun 2009)

The sitaution described does not seem to add up. I,m just wondering if this widow is on the correct pension.

In your post you state that "she has worked all her life" so does she not have enough PRSI from that to obtain a Contributory Pension

Was her late husband paying PRSI


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## JQ2002 (24 Jun 2009)

The non contributory is correct, the state does not have a full record of her employment/contributions/stamps and therfore will only allow her the Non Contributory portion.


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## milic (24 Jun 2009)

One can apply for a means re assessment at any time. There is no 3 or 5 year rule.


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## Black Sheep (26 Jun 2009)

Has she applied to the Records Section or was she a public Servant. 
Sorry to keep harping on but I always like to check thoroughly first for an Insurance based payment before entering the means-tedted route

She cannot dispose of an asset in order to obtain a pension. This is where the 5 year rule comes in


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## TheBeach (27 Jun 2009)

If your mum has spent some of her working life in another EU Member State she may be entitled to a part pension from there too (if that is the reason that the State does not hold all her records). EU Widows in Sligo can examine entitlement to EU Widow's Pension, using records from a number of countries.


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## JQ2002 (29 Jun 2009)

Black Sheep can you expand on the 5 year rule please, this is what I need to more about. Where is this info available?

Like I said, she would be disposing of an asset to meet some significant expenses but doing so will also decrease her overall assets for assessment and may result in a higher pension being awarded to what she is getting now. I am concerned that doing so may impact on her current payment from the state.

The Beach, the widow has worked all her life in Ireland.


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## Black Sheep (29 Jun 2009)

The application form for the Non-Con pension  question N. 25 asks for details of any property or business disposed of over the last three years, while the HSE in its means tests says that any assets diverted in the previous 5 years may be taken into account
I,m still puzzled that having worked all her life her PRSI record is not available


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## JQ2002 (30 Jun 2009)

This person worked as a nurse and then managed a farm when her husband pre-deceased her. She is in her mid 90s. I have tried without success to get a contributory pension but it would appear for the period she managed the farm, her stamps do not qualify and records prior to that are not available. I'm pleased that she is getting something but am concerned that if when she reduces some of her investments to pay some personal expenses she may lose the bit she is getting from  the state when I request a re-assessment.


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## Black Sheep (30 Jun 2009)

I,m guessing here but because she worked as a nurse she may only have paid the WOPS rate of social insurance and those records may be with the HSE and not reckonable for pension unless she was widowed while still in their employment.

Have you ever checked her entitlement to a part occupational pension from the nursing years

Don't understand the farm situation. (If this was the family farm she would have been self-employed and class *S* PRSI for farmers only came into being in 1988 which was probably too late for her)

I would check with non-contributory pension section as to how they would deal with the sale of an asset in order to clear some bills and request a copy of the regulations


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## JQ2002 (1 Jul 2009)

Black Sheep said:


> I,m guessing here but because she worked as a nurse she may only have paid the WOPS rate of social insurance and those records may be with the HSE and not reckonable for pension unless she was widowed while still in their employment.-This could be the case, she was told her stamps paid did not qualify her for a pension
> 
> Have you ever checked her entitlement to a part occupational pension from the nursing years-No, where does one go to do this?
> 
> ...


-No harm I suspose, I will let you know how I get on.


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## milic (1 Jul 2009)

For non contributory pension purposes it is perfectly acceptable to dispose of capital of assetts, as long as the disposal was not carried out for the principal purpose of qualifying for a pension or an increase in pension. 
Provided your relative disposes of capital or assetts to clear bona fide personal debts, there is no problem


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## moonman (7 Feb 2011)

i know a lady a friend of the family who has recently been widowed and she is getting 16500 euros a year which half of her late husbands pension ,will she be entitled to a non contributary pension as she is not entitled to the contributayy one as neither of them did not have enough stamps. any info would would be appreciated as she is very upset about the death still.


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## Black Sheep (8 Feb 2011)

Moonman
I'm trying to get the situation here


She has a pension of 16,500, half her late husband's pension. Was he a public servant?
She has not enough PRSI contributions of her own.  What about her husbands contributions?
I think she should be applying for a widows pension based on her husbands contributions. If he was a public servant he would have paid a modified rate of contribution (stamps) which covers widows pension.

If he was *not* a public servant it seems unusual that he would have had a sizeable pension and not having paid PRSI


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## moonman (8 Feb 2011)

black sheep thank you for your reply ,she has no stamps of her own apperently she sold them when they gathering money for a house deposit,and she became a  full time mother .he worked in a semi state and was about 25 stamps short  for a state pension and was told at 66 that the credits were no value .yes he did pay a reduced prsi which is why i raised the query as i think i remember someone saying that people would  get something in this situation .its only 7 weeks ago since he died and you can appriciate she is still emotional. hope your reply is positive


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## Black Sheep (8 Feb 2011)

Perhaps you or a friend could help her apply for her widows pension and all the other benefits which she may be eligible for,ie. Household Benefit Package, Living alone allowance (if she lives alone) Bereavement grant.

As there may be a lot of form filling to do maybe it would be a good idea to take her to her local Citizens Information Centre who will advise her and help with form filling.

By the way the required number of contributions (stamps) for a widows pension is very different from State pension (old age pension).

The sooner she applies the sooner the wheels are set in motion


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## moonman (8 Feb 2011)

great stuff black sheep will get moving tomorrow for her i have arranged for my wife and herself to go to the citizens advice and get all the info .thanks for your advice


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