# Leaving Cert - has it been dumbed down?



## liaconn (11 Aug 2009)

What do other people feel about claims that the leaving cert has been dumbed down in recent years. I've just read an article in the Irish Times saying that last year 75% of pupils achieved an A, B or C in English in the leaving cert.  I remember when I was leaving school As were practically impossible to achieve, Bs were considered absolutely brilliang and Cs were a very, very respectable result. Nowadays, As and Bs seem to be very achieveable and a lot of kids seem to be very disappointed with a C. Also, a lot of my friends claim that their kids are doing absolutely no work for their exams and, when you nervously enquire about how they did, they seem to have done great. Not sure if its because the exams are easier, or teaching methods have improved.


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## BeanPole (11 Aug 2009)

Doubt teaching methods have improved - where is the incentive for teachers to raise thier game?

We have the highest paid teachers, on an hourly basis, of any country in the world, and that is before their "entitlement" to more than 30 days annual sick pay is taken into account.

With teaching standards like that, no wonder the country is stuffed


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## becky (11 Aug 2009)

I have wondered this too.  

There was a lad in my class who got an A in honours english (LC 1987) which was a hard one to crack.

He actually got 9 A's (he did art and home economics as extra) so he was an exceptional student.

No grinds or saturday classes either.


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## csirl (11 Aug 2009)

Has been dumbed down big time. Look at the data for the % As, Bs etc, from current times and compare it with 10 or 20 years ago and you'll see a huge rise in high grades.

Those within the education profession would also tell you that the syllabus has been dumbed down a lot - we're now making the mistakes that other countries did 10-20 years ago and have since discovered the error of their ways e.g. "it doesnt matter if the child cant spell or count.....its all about them expressing themselves" and "there's no such thing as a wrong answer."


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## Crea (11 Aug 2009)

[broken link removed]

Here is a link to some studies done regarding grade inflation in Ireland.


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## liaconn (11 Aug 2009)

One of the reasons this interests me is that, in the Civil Service, no matter how long its been since you left school or how many qualifications you have achieved since, you still have to give your leaving cert results on any application form for promotion. I assume most interview boards don't take these into account, but it is still annoying for older applicants to feel their results are being compared with applicants who sat a much easier exam (if that is the case).


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## mathepac (11 Aug 2009)

liaconn said:


> ... in the Civil Service, ... you still have to give your leaving cert results on any application form for promotion...


 I never knew that!! Does the format date back to the times when  post Leaving Cert you either entered the CS or went to Uni?


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## gebbel (11 Aug 2009)

liaconn said:


> Also, a lot of my friends claim that their kids are doing absolutely no work for their exams and, when you nervously enquire about how they did, they seem to have done great. Not sure if its because the exams are easier, or teaching methods have improved.


 
Sounds to me more like they are exaggerating their kids' intelligence by claiming they have done little study and yet have achieved highly. To get back to your question, I don't believe the standards have lessened. The intensity at which the students are now studying has increased, and this together with all the grinds and extra tuition etc., they are achieving all these high grades.


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## MrMan (12 Aug 2009)

liaconn said:


> What do other people feel about claims that the leaving cert has been dumbed down in recent years. I've just read an article in the Irish Times saying that last year 75% of pupils achieved an A, B or C in English in the leaving cert. I remember when I was leaving school As were practically impossible to achieve, Bs were considered absolutely brilliang and Cs were a very, very respectable result. Nowadays, As and Bs seem to be very achieveable and a lot of kids seem to be very disappointed with a C. Also, a lot of my friends claim that their kids are doing absolutely no work for their exams and, when you nervously enquire about how they did, they seem to have done great. Not sure if its because the exams are easier, or teaching methods have improved.


 
I think we like to think that it has been dumbed down as it gives a sense of coming from tougher times. Times change and so has the outlook for teens. Now college is seen as a certainty whereas before it was for those who were avoiding real work or the real world. The emphasis on a more rounded education is there now. The hours haven't lessoned so I doubt the ability of students has diminished either.


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## Towger (12 Aug 2009)

I have an uncle who thought Honours Maths and Physics. In his opinion the introduction of the Junior cert was the beginning of the end, and the jump from higher JC Maths to Leaving level was too much for most pupils.


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## liaconn (12 Aug 2009)

mathepac said:


> I never knew that!! Does the format date back to the times when post Leaving Cert you either entered the CS or went to Uni?


 
I'm not sure but, believe me, it drives people nuts. You could have done three degrees since you left school and have twenty years work experience, but they still want to know whether you got a C or a D in geography back in 19 whatever. It's ridiculous.


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## Yorrick (12 Aug 2009)

The emphasis on getting points for the CAO has changed the attitude to the Leaving Cert. The grind schools set the trend and now teachers do a forensic job on all L.C. papers. Any teacher worth his/her salt will be able to identify the most likely areas where questions will be sourced. Comparison over the years throw up the same questions. 
There was a time when there were jobs available for L.C. students without having to go to college but that day is gone. I know a number of people who got starts in solicitors offices, auctioneers etc on the strenght of L.C. results but that doesn't happen anymore


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## villa 1 (12 Aug 2009)

BeanPole said:


> Doubt teaching methods have improved - where is the incentive for teachers to raise thier game?
> 
> We have the highest paid teachers, on an hourly basis, of any country in the world, and that is before their "entitlement" to more than 30 days annual sick pay is taken into account.
> 
> With teaching standards like that, no wonder the country is stuffed


Well done, bash the teachers again. Does anyone realise that we have one of the best educational systems in the world. Teachers should be paid more!! As for sick leave, 30 days is'nt enough when you have to deal with some of the little darlings that go to school these days.
This is another go at the public sector which seems to be prevalent on aam at the moment!!


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## Sunny (12 Aug 2009)

liaconn said:


> I'm not sure but, believe me, it drives people nuts. You could have done three degrees since you left school and have twenty years work experience, but they still want to know whether you got a C or a D in geography back in 19 whatever. It's ridiculous.


 
I was recently interested in a job in the Financial Regulator and couldn't believe how exam focused the application form was. I just couldn't have been bothered to find out what grade I got in French for my LC or what mark I got in Statistics in my final year of Uni. I can see why it must drive people in the civil service insane. There are plenty of people with average educational record who shine in the workplace. I wonder do these people get recognised when the focus is so much on some stupid exam from years ago.


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## Duke of Marmalade (12 Aug 2009)

Year on year this dumbing down is not obvious. This year 143 got 600 points compared to 216 last year despite more people sitting the exam.

You want dumbing down, look at the North. There is a 12% chance of getting straight As in the NI A-levels compared to a 1/4% chance of 600 points down here. No wonder Trinity Med is awash with Northern A-level students.


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## liaconn (12 Aug 2009)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> Year on year this dumbing down is not obvious. This year 143 got 600 points compared to 216 last year despite more people sitting the exam.
> 
> You want dumbing down, look at the North. There is a 12% chance of getting straight As in the NI A-levels compared to a 1/4% chance of 600 points down here. No wonder Trinity Med is awash with Northern A-level students.


 
Yes, but I wonder if you compared results this year with results from 15 or 20 years ago would there be a marked difference? I suspect there would.


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## Crea (12 Aug 2009)

I was listening to a LC student on the Last Word this evening discussing Maths. She said that there was a gradual dumbing down of maths since around 2001. The students now aren't studying more - most of us put our time in at the books at exam times. There were very few dossers in my class in the '80's


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## Crea (12 Aug 2009)

liaconn said:


> Yes, but I wonder if you compared results this year with results from 15 or 20 years ago would there be a marked difference? I suspect there would.


 
If you look at the grade inflation link above you'll see that there is.


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## liaconn (12 Aug 2009)

MrMan said:


> I think we like to think that it has been dumbed down as it gives a sense of coming from tougher times. Times change and so has the outlook for teens. Now college is seen as a certainty whereas before it was for those who were avoiding real work or the real world. The emphasis on a more rounded education is there now. The hours haven't lessoned so I doubt the ability of students has diminished either.


 

But we're not saying students' abilities have changed. We're saying that they're getting more As and Bs than students got years ago, therefore could the exams be getting easier? It can hardly be that students years ago, when it was much harder to get to stay on at school for your leaving cert, were less bright or hard working.


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## mathepac (12 Aug 2009)

I just heard my niece got 485 points giving her a shot at her 1st choice in UCC so happy days - dumbed down, I don't know, but she is a smart little kid who worked part-time, partied a bit and studied last year.


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## liaconn (12 Aug 2009)

Well, my Godaughter got 470 points and I am thrilled and have the card and the money all waiting for her. But I don't see what this has to do with the issue under debate.


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## shanegl (12 Aug 2009)

I sat the leaving cert 10 years ago. I was obvious to me at that stage from looking at past papers that certain subject like maths had been made easier. 
Perhaps this links in with the massive explosion of numbers attending 3rd level?


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## BoscoTalking (13 Aug 2009)

from teachers i know, over the years whole difficult chunks are eliminated or simplified  from the core curriculum. 
imo it has led to the bar being lowered for university courses as an A1 for geography which are achievable can get you a whopping 100 points helping the student on their way to a degree in English - arts is any uni is now less than 400 in total.


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## truthseeker (13 Aug 2009)

liaconn said:


> Yes, but I wonder if you compared results this year with results from 15 or 20 years ago would there be a marked difference? I suspect there would.


 
Its much harder to do the comparison since the A1, A2 business came in, times used to be you just got an A, B or a C, now its all seperated out.

Is there anywhere online you can look at past papers? I could go look at the physics paper and see do I think its been dumbed down since 1992.


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## liaconn (13 Aug 2009)

pennypitstop said:


> from teachers i know, over the years whole difficult chunks are eliminated or simplified from the core curriculum.
> imo it has led to the bar being lowered for university courses as an A1 for geography which are achievable can get you a whopping 100 points helping the student on their way to a degree in English - arts is any uni is now less than 400 in total.


 
I suppose that leads to the next question - are degrees easier to come by now? Nowadays every child seems to go on to College and get an 'ology' in something. My father, who used to sit on interview boards, says that most interviewers would know the quality of various colleges and degree courses and wouldn't really rate some of them or take them into account. Seems a shame for kids to be wasting their time on courses that don't really count in the end.


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## terrontress (14 Aug 2009)

I don't see it as being much of an issue if the leaving cert is getting easier. The bottom line is that the principal function of the system is to give 3rd level institutions a yardstick to help decide whether they will admit a pupil.

As they say, the cream rises to the top. And if those who were averaging 6 Bs are now averaging 3 As and 3 Bs, the courses that would have traditionally taken leavers with 6 Bs will now only take those with 3 As and 3 Bs.

Personally, I feel that while important, the overall leaving cert result is not as important as the social skills that a child develops while at school.

As for comparing other countries' systems, there may be a higher percentage of those attaining all As, but you can be sure then straight As is all that will get in to certain courses whereas in Ireland, the same course might accept someone with a B as well.


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## liaconn (14 Aug 2009)

But surely school should be preparing kids for life. If they're trained to think As and Bs are easy to come by, how will they cope when they get to University or when they join the real world of work. I think focussing totally on gaining entry to College is not what school should be about.


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## S.L.F (15 Aug 2009)

BeanPole said:


> Doubt teaching methods have improved - where is the incentive for teachers to raise thier game?
> 
> We have the highest paid teachers, on an hourly basis, of any country in the world, and that is before their "entitlement" to more than 30 days annual sick pay is taken into account.
> 
> With teaching standards like that, no wonder the country is stuffed


 
Just to clarify our teachers on average take 1 days sick leave per year not 30.

This post is the type of stuff that brought the Public service bashing cease fire into place, I really wish it was reinstated.

My own view on the subject is the leaving cert has been dumbed down drastically


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## lightswitch (15 Aug 2009)

"My father, who used to sit on interview boards, says that most interviewers would know the quality of various colleges and degree courses and wouldn't really rate some of them or take them into account. Seems a shame for kids to be wasting their time on courses that don't really count in the end. "

Liaconn, Could you name these colleges / Courses please.  It would be very useful for people to know before they send their sons / daughters to them.  LS.


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## liaconn (15 Aug 2009)

lightswitch said:


> "My father, who used to sit on interview boards, says that most interviewers would know the quality of various colleges and degree courses and wouldn't really rate some of them or take them into account. Seems a shame for kids to be wasting their time on courses that don't really count in the end. "
> 
> Liaconn, Could you name these colleges / Courses please. It would be very useful for people to know before they send their sons / daughters to them. LS.


 
I'm not an interviewer and I'm not an expert in any particular area eg psychology, engineering etc so there's no way I could tell you what courses are rated and what aren't. You'd need to speak to people who regularly recruit and interview in these areas.


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## pugwall (18 Aug 2009)

shanegl said:


> I sat the leaving cert 10 years ago. I was obvious to me at that stage from looking at past papers that certain subject like maths had been made easier.
> Perhaps this links in with the massive explosion of numbers attending 3rd level?


 
I sat the LC 10 years ago too and also found that higher level maths appeared  to have been made easier. My maths teacher at the time (excellent teacher) got a B in the older syllabus. I got a B in higher level maths in 1999 an never considered myself a strong maths student. Although I only copped on to maths in 6th year having miserably failed the 5th year summer exam. Actually, on that note, i went to a well known grind school durnign the Christmas holidays for paper 1 . My friend went to paper 2 and we swapped the (legendary) notes. These notes (which were excellent) really helped with the B grade. Which leads to the point that grind schools are a major factor contributing to leaving  cert grade inflation.


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## csirl (19 Aug 2009)

> Liaconn, Could you name these colleges / Courses please. It would be very useful for people to know before they send their sons / daughters to them. LS.


 
Probably not a good idea to name them on this forum - dont want AAM getting sued etc.

But suffice to say that typcially these colleges would recruit outside the CAO system or have very low points in the CAO, be privately owned and have their degrees awarded by non-Irish sources e.g. former polytechnics from the UK.


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## liaconn (19 Aug 2009)

Agreed. Also, you will find they have a very low or even non existent fail rate in most of their courses.


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## Sunny (19 Aug 2009)

csirl said:


> Probably not a good idea to name them on this forum - dont want AAM getting sued etc.
> 
> But suffice to say that typcially these colleges would recruit outside the CAO system or have very low points in the CAO, be privately owned and have their degrees awarded by non-Irish sources e.g. former polytechnics from the UK.


 
Not necessarily. The engerineering programme in one Dublin Univestity is considered inferior to others including the DIT. It has always been this way. Certain Universities have better reputations in certain courses. They compete against each other. 

All students have to do is research the courses offered and college to see where is the best place for their particular choice.


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## liaconn (19 Aug 2009)

On a related note, does anyone remember 'secretarial' or 'commercial' courses. I remember a time when any girl (and it was only females) who didn't want to do nursing, teaching or a university degree used to be channelled into one of these. I suppose they are now called a certificate or a diploma in something.


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## csirl (19 Aug 2009)

> Not necessarily. The engerineering programme in one Dublin Univestity is considered inferior to others including the DIT. It has always been this way. Certain Universities have better reputations in certain courses. They compete against each other.


 
I fully agree with you - there is some variation in standards among the colleges - but all within an acceptable range i.e. all graduates from all reputable colleges possess the minimum standards for the profession, though some may exceed these standards. But we're talking about colleges who award degrees to people who clearly are not up to even the minimum standards.


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## liaconn (22 Aug 2009)

Is it true that there's a course on offer through the CAO on jam making? Several of my friends with kids in secondary school have mentioned it (rollling their eyes at the same time). Just wondering if its an urban myth?


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