# Corrib Gas Gardai story



## Sunny (6 Apr 2011)

I need to be careful how I phrase this because I don't want to appear to be trivialising the issue but am I correct in saying the Gardai involved made the comments between themselves and not directly to the women involved and the comments were just caught on a confiscated camera?

When I first heard the story, I thought they had directly threatened to rape and deport the women involved. Not condoning their comments in any shape or form but if everything we said to colleagues when alone was recorded and used against us, how many of us would have jobs? That said, they must be complete ignornant cretins to think making jokes about rape was appropriate at any time.


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## Protocol (6 Apr 2011)

Sunny said:


> am I correct in saying the Gardai involved made the comments between themselves and not directly to the women involved and the comments were just caught on a confiscated camera?


 

Correct.


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## pinkyBear (6 Apr 2011)

Their comments were inappropriate, I heard the conversation on the radio and picture it, you're in the back of a police car, and two guards joke about raping you because you dont give your name! I would feel threatened, it may have been said in jest - but you never know!!!


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## orka (6 Apr 2011)

pinkyBear said:


> Their comments were inappropriate, I heard the conversation on the radio and picture it, you're in the back of a police car, and two guards joke about raping you because you dont give your name! I would feel threatened, it may have been said in jest - but you never know!!!


The women weren't in the car. The guards were alone in the car with a video camera still recording unbeknowst to them. It sounds nasty though - I initially thought it might have been something along the lines of saying the women were attractive and they wouldn't mind, ahem, going out with them. But it just sounded so cretinous 'we should say 'give us your name or we'll rape you'' - really inappropriate but also strangely immature too.


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## Sunny (6 Apr 2011)

pinkyBear said:


> Their comments were inappropriate, I heard the conversation on the radio and picture it, you're in the back of a police car, and two guards joke about raping you because you dont give your name! I would feel threatened, it may have been said in jest - but you never know!!!


 
That's the point. They didn't hear it. They only heard the comments when they were released and got their camera back. Yet reading the papers today, apparently they feared for their lives almost.


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## truthseeker (6 Apr 2011)

pinkyBear said:


> Their comments were inappropriate, I heard the conversation on the radio and picture it, you're in the back of a police car, and two guards joke about raping you because you dont give your name! I would feel threatened, it may have been said in jest - but you never know!!!


 
The women were not in the car with the guards at the time of the conversation.

The women were arrested, the camera was confiscated - unbeknownst to the guards who confiscated it, it was actually running. The women went off in one car, at least 3 guards plus the camera went off in another car. The conversation was a private conversation between 3 collegues.

It was direly inappropriate, and the fact one of them was a sergeant he should have had the cop on to say 'lads, dont be making jokes about rape'. He didnt.

Its a bit of a storm in a teacup, tbh the conversation sounded like a bunch of teenagers having a guffaw about something inappropriate - not grown men who are officers of the law who one would hope had more sense.

It does show a disturbing attitude to the crime of rape by the men involved, its not a laughing matter and nor should it be joked about - but people are people and make inappropriate jokes in private all the time.


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## Shawady (6 Apr 2011)

orka said:


> But it just sounded so cretinous 'we should say 'give us your name or we'll rape you'' - really inappropriate but also strangely immature too.


 
I only heard the recording once but it sounded like the guard was saying the woman would be deported and probably raped. I took it he meant she could be raped after she was deported, not that it makes it right to joke about it.


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## pinkyBear (6 Apr 2011)

"The women were not in the car with the guards at the time of the conversation." 
Fair enough, the comments though were inappropriate, whether or not the girls were present.  

"But it just sounded so cretinous 'we should say 'give us your name or we'll rape you'' - really inappropriate but also strangely immature too."
Completely agree, but you know some guards just thinks they are gods, and above the law!!!


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## gianni (6 Apr 2011)

I listened to the recording a few times... one thing I noticed is that one of the women repeatedly makes the comment that she doesn't want her friend to be alone with the Guard who is arresting her... I don't have the direct quote to hand but it was along the lines of 'she's not safe with _that_ man'. 

To play devils advocate, it is the women that were making inferences at the outset that they were not safe in the company of the Gardai and this led to the comments uttered in the car on the way back to the station. ie the Guards were reacting (in sarcastic jest) to the suggestion that the women were in danger in their company...

Needless to say any joking about such a horrible crime is crass in the extreme.


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## PetrolHead (6 Apr 2011)

Recording here....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEVdPRpz908 

Listen and judge for yourselves....


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## MANTO (6 Apr 2011)

I think it is just a case of 3 immature blokes - regardless of their profession - if i overheard anybody make those comments i would just think - Grow Up


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## Sunny (6 Apr 2011)

truthseeker said:


> It does show a disturbing attitude to the crime of rape by the men involved, its not a laughing matter and nor should it be joked about - but people are people and make inappropriate jokes in private all the time.


 
I can see why it is a story in this regard but that is a wider problem within society and is not confined to those three idiots. I really don't see why there are two investigations, front page newspaper headlines, prime time reports and politicians speaking in the Dail on the matter.


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## truthseeker (6 Apr 2011)

PetrolHead said:


> Recording here....
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEVdPRpz908
> 
> Listen and judge for yourselves....


 
Thats literally just the piece about the rape joke, there is a much longer recording where you can hear the women being arrested and as Gianni says - there is some talk about one of the women not being safe with some man. Also there is some talk of resisting arrest and the woman is clearly stating that she is not resisting arrest but that is concerned for the safety of her friend.

Full recording here:
http://vimeo.com/21952231


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## michaelm (6 Apr 2011)

Normally I'd think the prominence of this story was due to a slow news week but with Japan and Libya, amongst other things, that's not the case.  The Garda shouldn't be going on like that but it was a stupid private exchange.  If any law was broken it surely was illegal, if perhaps unintentional, recording.  As such it should have been either deleted or given to the Garda Commissioner to be dealt with internally.


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## micmclo (6 Apr 2011)

Start of the video is the women refusing to identify herself

The vast majority of the video is on safety procedures. Pretty boring stuff and I see Dublin Shell to Sea didn't bother to subtitle that.


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## truthseeker (6 Apr 2011)

micmclo said:


> Pretty boring stuff and I see Dublin Shell to Sea didn't bother to subtitle that.


 
Why would they? The point they are trying to make is about the rape joke.


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## Betsy Og (6 Apr 2011)

Wasnt a funny joke, but its clear that they werent advocating/threatening rape etc., so they should get a kick up the This post will be deleted if not edited to remove bad language, told to make sure they're not being recorded, and tone down the "wit" while they're in uniform.

Dont have much sympathy for the Shell to Sea protest, rent-a-crowd republicans to a fair degree. They showed their true colours with their assault of security guards and destruction of property. Think of all the money wasted because of them.


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## Yorrick (6 Apr 2011)

The subject is not funny but this is just what is called macho canteen culture in a private conversation. As some one has said a stupid exchange between men. I do know that people in the emergency services like police, firemen, ambulance crews and even nurses in accident and emergency often joke on their breaks about matters they experience like suicides, murders etc. They have to. If they carried all the emotional baggage around they would end up in hopspitals themselves. The important thing is when they are dealing with the victims etc they act professionally.


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## Purple (6 Apr 2011)

Betsy Og said:


> Wasnt a funny joke, but its clear that they werent advocating/threatening rape etc., so they should get a kick up the This post will be deleted if not edited to remove bad language, told to make sure they're not being recorded, and tone down the "wit" while they're in uniform.
> 
> Dont have much sympathy for the Shell to Sea protest, rent-a-crowd republicans to a fair degree. They showed their true colours with their assault of security guards and destruction of property. Think of all the money wasted because of them.



+1 on both points.


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## emmt (6 Apr 2011)

> so they should get a kick up the This post will be deleted if not edited to remove bad language, told to make sure they're not being recorded, and tone down the "wit" while they're in uniform.



I couldnt disagree with you more Betsy Og. Correct, they werent actually advocating rape but they were trivialising it. That is NOT acceptable.



> told to make sure they're not being recorded


So they can continue to trivialise matters that can change a perspn's whole life but just make sure no one hears?

And lastly, its not wit, whether you put the word in inverted commas or not.

I know this type of thing probably goes on in all walks of life when you have irresponsible people holding and sharing idiotic thoughts like this but the fact of the matter is they were caught and there should be something done about it


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## Sunny (6 Apr 2011)

emmt said:


> I couldnt disagree with you more Betsy Og. Correct, they werent actually advocating rape but they were trivialising it. That is NOT acceptable.
> 
> 
> So they can continue to trivialise matters that can change a perspn's whole life but just make sure no one hears?
> ...


 
I probably say I am going kill someone every day in my job. Doesn't mean I am trivialising murder. It was stupidity on the guys part but when I read the women involved claiming that local people should be scared, you realise it has nothing to do with the comments and all to do with publicity for their campaign. What I don't get is why the media are all over it.  

They don't claim they were assaulted. They don't claim mis-treatment. They don't claim unfair arrest.


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## micmclo (6 Apr 2011)

Lunchtime, I'd rape a club sandwich right now and murder a cup of tea
But the local Spar is a rip-off, they'd rape my pockets 
I need a healthy diet anyway, I'm so slow on the football field the speedy wingers rape me.

You can hear each on these around the place
And if you watched RTE and the World Cup last summer you definitely heard one and the followup apology

Publicity coup for indymedia and S2S.


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## horusd (6 Apr 2011)

Okay, don't want to get up too much on the soapbox, but the allegations (*if* true) demonstrate a very weird and frightening attitude to women by men who possess a lot of personal power as officers of the Gardai. It displays an attitude to power and women as objects that can be dominated and controlled through rape or deportation. Rape in particular as a phenomenon is primarily linked to power and not to sex and while to speak of something is not the same as doing something, it indicates an aberrant mindset. We dont tolerate racist speech just because speech is a type of act that is offensive in and of itself.

This is not the same as general chit chat jokingly spoken about buyng a sambo in Spar or saying that such and such a team murdered another one on the pitch.


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## thedaras (6 Apr 2011)

If a person had said that to a female member of the Gardai ,what reaction do you think they would get?? Or if a member of the Guards found a tape with the same content,do you think they would just let it go??


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## thedaras (6 Apr 2011)

horusd said:


> Okay, don't want to get up too much on the soapbox, but the allegations (*if* true) demonstrate a very weird and frightening attitude to women by men who possess a lot of personal power as officers of the Gardai. It displays an attitude to power and women as objects that can be dominated and controlled through rape or deportation. Rape in particular as a phenomenon is primarily linked to power and not to sex and while to speak of something is not the same as doing something, it indicates an aberrant mindset. We dont tolerate racist speech just because speech is a type of act that is offensive in and of itself.
> 
> This is not the same as general chit chat jokingly spoken about buyng a sambo in Spar or saying that such and such a team murdered another one on the pitch.


Very well put.. you are right that each one has to be put in context,and in fairness I have never heard anyone saying they would rape a sandwich or whatever it was..not the men I know ,thankfully..


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## Sunny (6 Apr 2011)

thedaras said:


> If a person had said that to a female member of the Gardai ,what reaction do you think they would get?? Or if a member of the Guards found a tape with the same content,do you think they would just let it go??


 
Well they didn't say it the girls. And I don't see what the guards could do if they found a tape with me joking with friends about rape. Just like they couldn't do anything if they found a tape of me joking about murder.


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## Sunny (6 Apr 2011)

The use of the word 'rape' was careless and insenstive. However, it is no different in reality to how groups of men discuss women all the time when together. Just the other night in the pub, a collegaue told me how he would 'do' another colleague of ours. He didn't mean he actually wanted to rape her or thought rape was somehow right. 

The fact remains, they didn't threaten the girls, mis-handle them, abuse them or falsely accuse them. They referred to them during what was supposed to be a private conversation and yet the girls are saying now that were frightened. How, if they didn't know about the comments.

By the way, I have also heard women use rape in the wrong way. I have heard girls calling other girls slappers or commenting 'that she is asking for it'. As I said earlier, there is a wider issue with regards to peoples attitudes to sexual crimes but I don't see why these three guards are being crucified.


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## Ciaraella (6 Apr 2011)

Betsy Og said:


> Wasnt a funny joke, but its clear that they werent advocating/threatening rape etc., so they should get a kick up the This post will be deleted if not edited to remove bad language, told to make sure they're not being recorded, and tone down the "wit" while they're in uniform.
> 
> Dont have much sympathy for the Shell to Sea protest, rent-a-crowd republicans to a fair degree. They showed their true colours with their assault of security guards and destruction of property. Think of all the money wasted because of them.


 
Totally agree with this.
I'm reading another extremely heated thread on another forum about this and one thing i just keep thinking is if this conversation said 'strangle' or 'murder' instead of rape there wouldn't be half the outcry that there is.

It's a sensationalist story when really the men were thick eejits having a stupid and totally inappropriate conversation and the protestors are using it to blacken the gardais name and stir up supprt among the public.

I love if some of the abuse that they've screamed at gardai made the front page.


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## MrMan (6 Apr 2011)

thedaras said:


> Very well put.. you are right that each one has to be put in context,and in fairness I have never heard anyone saying they would rape a sandwich or whatever it was..not the men I know ,thankfully..



I don't think rapists actually go about mentioning the word rape or that they would like to rape someone, and likewise murderers tend to keep these things to themselves, so your social circle is as safe as the one with the choice language.


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## Ceist Beag (6 Apr 2011)

As a complete aside to the main issue here, I found it quite sad that most of the conversation between the gardai was spent discussing how they had arrested one of the women (the one in the tractor) and how it wasn't done according to how they were trained. They seemed to be very taken up with this, fearing they might be punished for this, while one of them (the seargeant I think) was defending their approach (even to the point of saying they would have needed to put scaffolding up beside the tractor to be able to follow the training method!). I was quite taken with how worried they were about the technicalities of how to arrest someone who was obviously being a real nuisance obstructing the road in their tractor. Obviously this is a minor thing in this story but it just struck me as odd that they were so worried about this technicality in procedure whilst at the same time making such a stupid comment as the one discussed here.


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## MrMan (6 Apr 2011)

When someone logs onto your facebook page and posts something dodgy about you which looks like you have written it yourself it is known as 'frape' or facebook rape. I have heard someone say that he would rape a cheesecake which caught me off guard to be honest. 
Our humour has obviously become alot more edgy and we are not prone to stifling social ettiquette anymore, so the margins for social acceptance are now wider.
I don't think for a minute that anyone is condoning violent sexual assualt, and in general rapists are viewed as the lowest form of scum.


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## fizzelina (6 Apr 2011)

As a complete aside to the main issue here, I found it quite sad that most of the conversation between the gardai was spent discussing how they had arrested one of the women (the one in the tractor) and how it wasn't done according to how they were trained. They seemed to be very taken up with this, fearing they might be punished for this, while one of them (the seargeant I think) was defending their approach (even to the point of saying they would have needed to put scaffolding up beside the tractor to be able to follow the training method!). I was quite taken with how worried they were about the technicalities of how to arrest someone who was obviously being a real nuisance obstructing the road in their tractor

+1

Wasnt a funny joke, but its clear that they werent advocating/threatening rape etc., so they should get a kick up the This post will be deleted if not edited to remove bad language, told to make sure they're not being recorded, and tone down the "wit" while they're in uniform.

Dont have much sympathy for the Shell to Sea protest, rent-a-crowd republicans to a fair degree. They showed their true colours with their assault of security guards and destruction of property. Think of all the money wasted because of them. 

+1 

I do know that people in the emergency services like police, firemen, ambulance crews and even nurses in accident and emergency often joke on their breaks about matters they experience like suicides, murders etc. They have to. If they carried all the emotional baggage around they would end up in hopspitals themselves. The important thing is when they are dealing with the victims etc they act professionally. 

I also heard first hand emergency service members joke about this because it's how they deal with seeing this kind of thing all day. I think the Guards in Corrib made the joke because they don't put the same emotion on rape that others do because if they put those emotions on rape, murder etc how would they cope working..

If my private conversations were recorded my boss would sack me long ago! 
This is totally blown out of proportion and unfair on the Guards in question I feel.


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## DerKaiser (6 Apr 2011)

I've no doubt that the guys in question find the actual concept of rape truly disgusting.

It seems like they were laughing at how far fetched the notion that a woman would not be safe in their custody.

I think anyone who believes that making a very dark joke in private about rape, murder, suicide, racism, religion, etc implies that you condone any of it probably has a poor understanding of the human psyche.


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## Sunny (6 Apr 2011)

DerKaiser said:


> I've no doubt that the guys in question find the actual concept of rape truly disgusting.
> 
> It seems like they were laughing at how far fetched the notion that a woman would not be safe in their custody.
> 
> I think anyone who believes that making a very dark joke in private about rape, murder, suicide, racism, religion, etc implies that you condone any of it probably has a poor understanding of the human psyche.


 
And now their careers are probably over. Really bizarre. These guys will probably lose their jobs for making inappropriate comments to each other in private while you have politicians who have been proven to be corrupt still in the Dail and Seanad.


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## monagt (6 Apr 2011)

Quote: "I couldnt disagree with you more Betsy Og. Correct, they werent actually advocating rape but they were trivialising it. That is NOT acceptable."

Nobody said it was.

It was a private conversation and I would be sure that when the time came they would be professional and sympathetic to the victim.

Its easy to blow these things up but remember that these Gardai probably have wives, mothers, sisters, nieces, etc, and would take assault & rape seriously.

It sounded like they were doing a stupid Father Ted sketch, they will be reprimanded and it should be let go.

I have no connection to Gardai, Ruhama, 1in4, Amnesty or any other person/org who has an interest in this.


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## pinkyBear (6 Apr 2011)

> It was a private conversation


It was a private conversation between men who, when an allegation of rape occurs are meant to investigate the allegation, which may/not result in charges. 

Now, if these guards, don't take rape as being a serious crime, how can you expect them to investigate any allegations of rape fairly....


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## DerKaiser (6 Apr 2011)

pinkyBear said:


> Now, if these guards, don't take rape as being a serious crime, how can you expect them to investigate any allegations of rape fairly....


 
Are you concluding that a dark joke about rape made in private means they don't think rape in reality is a serious crime?


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## ali (6 Apr 2011)

horusd said:


> Okay, don't want to get up too much on the soapbox, but the allegations (*if* true) demonstrate a very weird and frightening attitude to women by men who possess a lot of personal power as officers of the Gardai. It displays an attitude to power and women as objects that can be dominated and controlled through rape or deportation. Rape in particular as a phenomenon is primarily linked to power and not to sex and while to speak of something is not the same as doing something, it indicates an aberrant mindset. We dont tolerate racist speech just because speech is a type of act that is offensive in and of itself.
> 
> This is not the same as general chit chat jokingly spoken about buyng a sambo in Spar or saying that such and such a team murdered another one on the pitch.


 
+1 to all of the above.

That kind of talk may well be indicative of the kind of talk that is prevalent among bunches of guys most of whom would find rape abhorrent but I think that misses the point. That kind of trivialisation shapes our views. If you think it's ok to joke about it then you create a culture where it's acceptable. Would you think it was more disgusting if they were discussing raping a child? If so why? 

Bottom line is that these guys are the people I have to go to if I am raped. I have to trust that they will act for me and protect me. That they will take me seriously. That they genuinely get how absolutely awful rape is for the victim. If they can make it a joke then how do I have confidence in them or the justice process. I'm not adverse to black humour in anyone's private sphere but some things aren't funny. Rape is one of them.


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## Sunny (6 Apr 2011)

pinkyBear said:


> It was a private conversation between men who, when an allegation of rape occurs are meant to investigate the allegation, which may/not result in charges.
> 
> Now, if these guards, don't take rape as being a serious crime, how can you expect them to investigate any allegations of rape fairly....


 
How on earth can you reach that conclusion based on a stupid comment. Have you never said something inappropriate in private? Have you never laughed at a comedians joke that deep down you know you shouldn't laugh at? Doesn't mean you have certain views or you consider certain things acceptable.

If they had threatened to rape or deport the women, this would be a completely different story but they didn't.


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## emmt (6 Apr 2011)

> Quote: "I couldnt disagree with you more Betsy Og. Correct, they werent actually advocating rape but they were trivialising it. That is NOT acceptable."
> 
> Nobody said it was.



You are right, nobody said it was and I dont think I suggested that anyone said it was. i was just giving my opinion. 

Subjects like this are always going to divide people but for me, I agree with horusd's well written comment. 

having said that, I dont think they should lose their jobs over it but should be reprimanded


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## Sunny (6 Apr 2011)

ali said:


> I'm not adverse to black humour in anyone's private sphere but some things aren't funny. Rape is one of them.


 
And yet someone else might find something you say in private equally as offensive as you find the subject of rape. Would you want to lose your job over some stupid conversation?


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## orka (6 Apr 2011)

DerKaiser said:


> It seems like they were laughing at how far fetched the notion that a woman would not be safe in their custody.


I think this is it in a nutshell. One woman wouldn't give her name and another one was saying that she wouldn't be safe in garda custody - I think the gardai were incredulous that someone would think that - along the lines of 'what does she think we'd do? give us your name and address and I'll rape you'! - they seemed to be laughing at the very notion of it. 
Does anyone believe for a minute that the people of Mayo have anything to fear from these gardai? I know I don't.


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## pinkyBear (6 Apr 2011)

> How on earth can you reach that conclusion based on a stupid comment.



Look I agree the comment was stupid and inappropriate.

However there is a difference if this was banter between two regular non garda guys, well hey they are creeps! The fact that this was a joke among guards gives a perception that rape is not seriously taken by the Gardai.. The guards may very well take a rape allegation seriously, however based on that tape it is perceived by alot of people that they don't it's a bit of a joke...


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## ali (6 Apr 2011)

Sunny said:


> And yet someone else might find something you say in private equally as offensive as you find the subject of rape. Would you want to lose your job over some stupid conversation?


 
I don't think these guys should lose their jobs. I do however think the issue should be taken seriously and the culture of rape humour to become as unacceptable as racism etc. A reprimand is appropriate and the publicity may well serve to make others think twice before making such stupid comments.


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## bullbars (6 Apr 2011)

pinkyBear said:


> The guards may very well take a rape allegation seriously, however based on that tape it is perceived by alot of people that they don't it's a bit of a joke...


 
You're making leaps over common sense. Its a slow news week effort and a chance for the tabloids to have a crack at the Guards. I'e heard plenty of black humour jokes and laughed at most of them. This "joke" was in bad taste I would agree but I think Betsy Og has summarised it best.

Edit : I recall Tommy Tierney referred to rape in a joke he made years ago and nobody mentioned it. By your logic celebrities don't take rape seriously.


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## horusd (6 Apr 2011)

The argument that this is equivalant to a private and edgy joke in poor taste that we might privately snigger at. or it is the same as saying "I'd do" this or that person doesn't stand up in this context. Why?

1. These are Garda who have these women in lawful custody. They have power over them such that to a large extent the women are at their mercy and in their control. This is not the same as some comedian on a stage, or a comment passed in the office or a pub, where no real control is in play.

2. The word rape in the context of women (and of sexual crime) has a very particular and specific connotation.  It has no bearing to any other context, because there is no other context in this case. The meaning of the word in this context is unambigious.

3. A common theme of porn is the "rape myth". A woman says no but really means yes. Thus a woman's refusal is sexualised and exploited. Likewise when you trivialise the term, or say it is not meant in that way, or that these people have sisters and mothers and don't/didn't mean it that way, you are underming the term, and silencing objectors by saying they are mis-reading it, "overreacting or "hysterical" or whatever. And it should be obvious that actual rapists have mothers and probably female relations as well.

I'm not saying that joking or whatever should be banned. But we need to understand just why these type of comments, if true, would be significant, and not to be dismissed lightly, or just excused as a stupid mistake, although it might be this too.


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## monagt (6 Apr 2011)

Quote: "having said that, I dont think they should lose their jobs over it but should be reprimanded"

+1

"And divide people" - don't think so, every 1 seems to agree, but lets not go over the top completely.

Agree with Sunny's comments.

Also, should a copy of the tape just have been sent with a complaint to the Minister, the Garda Commissioner and the Ombudsman?

Now everyone is involved and this does not help the Gardai and their relationship with the general public.


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## Birroc (6 Apr 2011)

emmt said:


> I know this type of thing probably goes on in all walks of life when you have irresponsible people holding and sharing idiotic thoughts like this but the fact of the matter is they were caught and there should be something done about it


 
Tricky one this. I dont think what they did is a criminal offence but these idiots should be repremanded in some way to send the right signal. I am sure they will suffer due to the level of outrage and media coverage. I wonder did the Morris Tribunal provoke as much outrage. 

Maybe they will be transferred to an even worse station, hard to know where that could be...Dublin or Tipperary somewhere...


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## Leper (6 Apr 2011)

I've listened to the tape on Youtube.  Also, I listened to the News Interview on TV3.  

1. The recording of the voices of the GardaI suggests harmless banter and this kind of conversation would go on anywhere.

2. The protester over-reacted. Furthermore, she acted the ultra feeble female.

The whole thing is a cheap publicity stunt to wrongfully discredit the Gardaí.


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## thedaras (6 Apr 2011)

My post earlier was making the point that if a tape was found and exactly the same conversation was had,but instead of shell to sea protesters they were talking about female members of the Guards,how do you think the Gardai would view it??
Think back to Price waterhouse cooper!! 

Also I would have been naive enough to think that at least while they are on duty they would have behaved properly,but sadly this is not the case..

Another point is that they felt secure enough to say what they said while in the company of work mates,while on duty and while a Sargent was present..what message are we getting from this..no one said ,lads thats inappropriate.

The message it sends out is the problem,I agree that they in all fairness didnt mean to act on it and it was most likly to be a bunch of lads messing and trying to be lighthearted..

Other posters have said that nurses/Doctors/Ambulance drivers etc laugh about suicide etc, but the point is, up till now this was not generally known by the public ,,I would imagine a lot of people would be hurt to think that if their son/daughter etc had died that those who were there would have a laugh about it.or for some woman who could be raped today that she would now think ,are the professionals having a laugh about this... it really makes me think about how professional they are that they can behave in that way...this should not be in the public domain..too many people can be affected by it.
If I want a laugh ,I can go see a comedian,I didnt think I would find it after a tragic death among the nurses and doctors in A and E..
It is another way of losing the trust of the public and more importantly the families and friends and indeed the person who is raped..
I suppose to sum up,when I read the poster who said this happens all the time at coffee breaks,I felt ,can we trust no one when we are vulnerable?,as I honestly believed professional people dealing with tragedy would not find it funny..
I just know that anyone I have worked with would never,and have never discussed vunrable  people in such a way,and if they did they would very quickly be put right..
And for those who are reading these posts,dont be disheartened,rest assured many of us still remain with some principals and value you and the majority of professionals do not have a laugh at others expense..


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## thedaras (6 Apr 2011)

leper said:


> 2. The protester over-reacted. Furthermore, she acted the ultra feeble female



disgusting...


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## Sunny (6 Apr 2011)

How were these women vunerable? They weren't even there. Bertie Ahearn was rightly criticised for making his suicide comment but that was in a public forum. This would never had been made public and caused distress to victims unless it was released by the women involved. Why didn't they just give the tape to the authorities and make the complaint. The whole thing could have dealt with. Right now you have three guards bring publically crucifed for stupid comments made in a private conversation. I am not condoning the comments made. I just don't think it is fair they are being used by the shell to sea campaign for their own agenda. One of women making a comment today thY she feared for the safety of local people was disgraceful.


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## ali (6 Apr 2011)

Sunny said:


> How were these women vulnerable? ..


 
Again this misses the point. It should not have been said in public, it should not have been said in private, it should not have been said by members of the force who have a responsibility for rape victims or by a crowd of lads in the pub on a Saturday night. Joking about rape trivialises the issue and creates a culture in which sexual violence is a topic of fun instead of the serious issue it is. 

Any man in any conversation worth his salt should have said "shut up that's not on". Again I make the point that if they were joking about raping a child, people would be outraged. It does not matter that they were joking about a shell to sea protester who was in no real danger. It matters that they were joking.


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## thedaras (6 Apr 2011)

Sunny said:


> How were these women vulnerable?



I dont recall saying the women in question were vunerable?

I was talking about vunerable women,ie;those who have been raped and feel the Guards think its acceptable to laugh about it.

I agree it shouldnt have been made public ,not for the sake of the guards involved but for the sake of women who will be raped and have to go to the guards..that must be an added burden..
There is such a thing as an underlying threat, and to me,thats is the problem with something like this..its a bit like the passive aggressive pattern of behavior..the half joke full earnest..


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## thedaras (6 Apr 2011)

ali said:


> Again this misses the point. It should not have been said in public, it should not have been said in private, it should not have been said by members of the force who have a responsibility for rape victims or by a crowd of lads in the pub on a Saturday night. Joking about rape trivialises the issue and creates a culture in which sexual violence is a topic of fun instead of the serious issue it is.
> 
> Any man in any conversation worth his salt should have said "shut up that's not on". Again I make the point that if they were joking about raping a child, people would be outraged. It does not matter that they were joking about a shell to sea protester who was in no real danger. It matters that they were joking.



I agree with you ali, espically when you say any man worth his salt etc.
Thankfully all of the men I know would never say that and they would be appalled if one of their group said it ..but these are good men.

I asked my husband his thoughts on it and he said it is NOT a commonly used word among his male friends..he said that if someone did ,they would be viewed as a weirdo..


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## MANTO (7 Apr 2011)

ali said:


> the culture of rape humour to become as unacceptable as racism etc. .



Culture of Rape humour? We must live in a different culture so, 3 muppets does not make a culture!


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## MrMan (7 Apr 2011)

pinkyBear said:


> Look I agree the comment was stupid and inappropriate.
> 
> However there is a difference if this was banter between two regular non garda guys, well hey they are creeps! The fact that this was a joke among guards gives a perception that rape is not seriously taken by the Gardai.. The guards may very well take a rape allegation seriously, however based on that tape it is perceived by alot of people that they don't it's a bit of a joke...


 
Banter by non garda guys! Guards are just guys in uniform and believe it or not they have banter just as much as you office ort factory worker. If a guard makes a private joke and you then make the leap to 'guards don't take rape seriously' it really does begger belief.


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## MrMan (7 Apr 2011)

horusd said:


> The argument that this is equivalant to a private and edgy joke in poor taste that we might privately snigger at. or it is the same as saying "I'd do" this or that person doesn't stand up in this context. Why?
> 
> 1. These are Garda who have these women in lawful custody. They have power over them such that to a large extent the women are at their mercy and in their control. This is not the same as some comedian on a stage, or a comment passed in the office or a pub, where no real control is in play.
> 
> ...


 
1. you're right, because a comedian makes the joke in public where as the guards spoke privately in the confines of their car.

2. ? ? ? 

3. OK, I don't know who introduced porn into this discussion but it wasn't the guards, and I'll have to take your take on the common theme in porn for granted.


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## MrMan (7 Apr 2011)

thedaras said:


> Other posters have said that nurses/Doctors/Ambulance drivers etc laugh about suicide etc, but the point is, up till now this was not generally known by the public ,,I would imagine a lot of people would be hurt to think that if their son/daughter etc had died that those who were there would have a laugh about it.or for some woman who could be raped today that she would now think ,are the professionals having a laugh about this... it really makes me think about how professional they are that they can behave in that way...this should not be in the public domain..too many people can be affected by it.
> If I want a laugh ,I can go see a comedian,I didnt think I would find it after a tragic death among the nurses and doctors in A and E..
> It is another way of losing the trust of the public and more importantly the families and friends and indeed the person who is raped..
> I suppose to sum up,when I read the poster who said this happens all the time at coffee breaks,I felt ,can we trust no one when we are vulnerable?,as I honestly believed professional people dealing with tragedy would not find it funny..
> ...


 
If people don't know the victim or their family directly then there is the capacity for a joke because if we were to dwell on the tragedy evident in every day life then we would be in a permanent state of mourning. Now and again joke are made which seem inappropriate but they are not designed to hurt anyone and it would be worse in my opinion if people feigned compassion and started reaching out to all the victims and their families online or in a canteen when obviously their sentiments mean as little as the jokes that other people make.


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## thedaras (7 Apr 2011)

They are not just guys in uniforms though are they,they are not the local milkman, they have power !

They are in uniform for a reason,they wear this uniform while they protect and serve,they are law enforcers,they should set examples.While they wear the uniform they become all of these things.

There are cultures in every organisation,these cultures can be accepted or not..
This was not on private time,it was while they were on duty and in uniform and with a Sargent present,and being paid to do their job.

Ive no interest in shell to sea.

If for example you worked in a pizza factory and you said you would rape your female co worker,and it was heard on tape,how do you think that would be dealt with? 

Or if it was your daughter/mother/wife/sister that they were referring too,how would you like it dealt with..I would hope that most decent people would see that it is not acceptable.
I just know how I feel and as a woman I find it extremely disappointing that such inappropriate use of language ,and saying what they said is very dis hearting.

And if this is what goes on,and it just happened to be caught on tape,the issue is what else is going on?


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## Ancutza (7 Apr 2011)

Now I listened to the recording what I hear are a bunch of clowns making off-colour jokes in the course of their work.  Most organisations have their clowns.   There is nothing sinister in their behaviour and I don't think that you could draw inference that, were they confronted with a genuine victim of rape, that they would trivialise the crime.

So they need a bit of a slap up the side of the head from a superior and told to cop-on (no pun intended).

Amongst their organisation I'd be much more concerned by the motorbike chappie who pulled me over on Stephens Green and accused me of cutting him up, which I plainly hadn't done, and then threatened me with god knows what or the childhood friend of mine who obviously had mental health issues and now is a fairly senior guard in the south-east.

Balance that against the 'more-than-fair' treatment I've received at their hands when I really was being naughty like your man on the bike who caught me outside Clones.  He could VERY rightly have cost me my job at the time (that day I was the organisations clown rep) but chose to give me a BIG fine and an ear-bashing instead.

Let them be shouted at by the Super and that's it.


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## MrMan (7 Apr 2011)

thedaras said:


> They are not just guys in uniforms though are they,they are not the local milkman, they have power !
> 
> They are in uniform for a reason,they wear this uniform while they protect and serve,they are law enforcers,they should set examples.While they wear the uniform they become all of these things.
> 
> ...


 
They wear a uniform, but they aren't robots, actual men still exist within the cloth. You example about saying that you would rape a co-worker shows exactly how far out of context this whole thing has been taken.

Your list of potential female victims would almost make one think that rape is only a crime against women. As a man I know a joke when I hear one and I have the ability to differentiate between said joke and the possibility that there is a mindset present that is prevalent to underestimating the seriousness of violent sexual assault.


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## Leper (7 Apr 2011)

I've heard more bantering abuse about the male referee from a losing camogie team than what the Gardai are accused of here. 

Anybody taking offence to what was said should loosen up, cop on and get a life.


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## Sunny (7 Apr 2011)

ali said:


> Again this misses the point. It should not have been said in public, it should not have been said in private, it should not have been said by members of the force who have a responsibility for rape victims or by a crowd of lads in the pub on a Saturday night. Joking about rape trivialises the issue and creates a culture in which sexual violence is a topic of fun instead of the serious issue it is.
> 
> Any man in any conversation worth his salt should have said "shut up that's not on". Again I make the point that if they were joking about raping a child, people would be outraged. It does not matter that they were joking about a shell to sea protester who was in no real danger. It matters that they were joking.



Seriously? You think one stupid throwaway comment gives you an insight into these guys attitudes to sexual crimes? Are you saying that because I am in somehow defending them, that I think sexual assault is one big joke? Like a lot I am sure, I have seen the affects of sexual crimes and I assure you that I dont see them as a trivial matter. If they had a conversation about actually raping the women, I would be the first to call for their heads. However, I don't see the difference between saying 'give me your name or i will rape you' and 'give me your name or I will kill you'. I don't see how you can infer that in either case, they are trivialising rape or murder. They may be crass cretins for thinking they were funny but they don't deserve for people to jump to conclusions about their attitudes to sexual crimes and face calls to be sacked.


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## horusd (7 Apr 2011)

MrMan said:


> 1. *you're right, because a comedian makes the joke in public where as the guards spoke privately in the confines of their car.*
> 
> Where they allegedly spoke is irrelevant; they were Gardai in uniform with these women in custody. They used the word peronally (*I would*...) in the context of these *specific women* who were in their offical control, not some imaginary woman/women.They are displaying an attitude generally to women, to joke about it is to imagine it as true. Fair enough some might say, even if very distasteful/foolish. But "rape" has very special connotations of extreme violence, forced submission and control, and these women were in custody. If a Garda joked that they would love to hang tha*t particular* traveller or n***er in their custody would/could we find that acceptable? You are comparing apples & oranges.
> 
> ...


 

A possible partial defence to these arguments is free speech. Gardai, like everyone else, are entitled to free speech, however distasteful their comments, their right to it "trumps" other rights. To negate this right would infringe on private freedoms. But weighted against this, is the fact that they were in offical capacity etc.


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## horusd (7 Apr 2011)

As an addendum, I am not arguing that the Gardai in question should be sacked even if the allegations prove true. I'm arguing that their comments should not be trivialised, and they do suggest (but not prove) a particular nasty attitude to women, related to the power they exercise as Gardai, not as some "Joe Soaps".


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## ali (7 Apr 2011)

Sunny said:


> Seriously? You think one stupid throwaway comment gives you an insight into these guys attitudes to sexual crimes? Are you saying that because I am in somehow defending them, that I think sexual assault is one big joke? Like a lot I am sure, I have seen the affects of sexual crimes and I assure you that I dont see them as a trivial matter. If they had a conversation about actually raping the women, I would be the first to call for their heads. However, I don't see the difference between saying 'give me your name or i will rape you' and 'give me your name or I will kill you'. I don't see how you can infer that in either case, they are trivialising rape or murder. They may be crass cretins for thinking they were funny but they don't deserve for people to jump to conclusions about their attitudes to sexual crimes and face calls to be sacked.


 
Yes I think one stupid throwaway remark gives an insight into these guys attitudes. I think when a remark like this is made and not challenged (especially by a man present) it creates a culture of acceptability around trivialising the issue which can most definately colour individuals men's attitude to the subject. When a man in the situation says "knock it off that's not funny", that makes everyone present think twice. 

I don't think that all men including yourself think sexual assault is 'one big joke' but I do think it being an accepted topic of fun does a disservice to all of us, not least the men in question who I have no doubt are probably decent. I repeat that I don't think they should be sacked but I hope it will make others consider better if a similar remark is made.


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## monagt (7 Apr 2011)

Hold on , "did they said they would get immigration for the Canadian woman"
They must be Racists as well as Rapists!!!

It was banter in a private setting, it was inappropriate and stupid but the level of controversy is way over the top.

Amnesty for example going to send reps on site , they must have money to waste, last time I donate to them.  -> Burma, Libya, North Korea, China and now the Gardai.

Quote: "accepted topic of fun does a disservice to all of us, - ali"
Look at any Comedy show - does not make it right but society accepts and recognises the difference between a joke and a crime.

Quote: "I repeat that I don't think they should be sacked- ali" 
So what should be done with them then - flogged, ostracised, boycotted,......?

All this about this  and the Irish won't even protest when their country, their childrens future, their own futures are destroyed.


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## Ceist Beag (7 Apr 2011)

I agree that there's far too much being made of this. People are making a huge leap from a crass few comments made in a private conversation to an abuse of power by the Gardai. Those that say that there is a danger of rape being trivialised by comments such as those made really want to cop themselves on and give adults a small bit of credit for being able to distinguish for themselves between a joke in poor taste and a brutal criminal act!


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## Bronte (7 Apr 2011)

An interesting aspect of this that has been marginalised is how much of the conversation was about how they as policemen could safely get ladies down from tractors without hurting anyone. Not a sign of men who hate women. They made a joke in very poor taste. But we have to think about the rights of free speech too. 

At the beginning of the tape we had an example of a cop trying to do his duty and arrest a lady who was resisting arrest. Thought it was very professional. 

If we are going to focus in on a throwaway crass remark we should also focus on what else was happening. These guys have to go there for us everyday and put up with this nonsense down in Rossport. At great cost to the state. There must be a lot of pressure in being a policeman in such circumstances where every act and deed they do is taped by the ladies looking for any slip in their actions to bring charges against a policeman. 

We also have to ask why did the ladies release the tape. Does it do anything to aid or progress women's rights. Does it make the work of gardai harder. Do I as a women feel safe in being arrested by a male garda, has that changed since yesterday? No it has not. Do I think I will be treated propertly if I bring a complaint? Yes I do. Naturally there are bad cops, but a couple of cops making very blue jokes has nothing to do with that.


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## horusd (7 Apr 2011)

No one has accused anyone of being a racist or a rapist. No one has accused anyone of actually abusing power. And I'm not calling for their heads.They should get a slap and it be left at that.

The problem is the confluence between Gardai who arrested these particular women, the comments they made, and the power they hold as Gardai. There is at least anecdotal evidence that some Gardai do indeed abuse their powers. Garda power is not trivial, and rape is not trivial. A just, equal society should not permit comments like these to go unpunished. Women are also Gardai. Would these comments be ok as a joke to a Ban Garda? Would she see the funny side of this laddish humour? Should women (and rape victims are generally but not exclusively women)  just have to put up and shut up? Claims that it's being overblown or that people can tell the difference between a "joke" and a crime ignore the fact that it trivialises genuine concerns and are attempts to silence criticism. People in official roles should not speak like this unchallenged. I can tell the difference between an edgy joke toldby a comedian and  Gardai who has these women in custody, and that is the point.


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## Ceist Beag (7 Apr 2011)

Bronte said:


> An interesting aspect of this that has been marginalised is how much of the conversation was about how they as policemen could safely get ladies down from tractors without hurting anyone. Not a sign of men who hate women. They made a joke in very poor taste. But we have to think about the rights of free speech too.
> 
> At the beginning of the tape we had an example of a cop trying to do his duty and arrest a lady who was resisting arrest. Thought it was very professional.
> 
> If we are going to focus in on a throwaway crass remark we should also focus on what else was happening. These guys have to go there for us everyday and put up with this nonsense down in Rossport. At great cost to the state. There must be a lot of pressure in being a policeman in such circumstances where every act and deed they do is taped by the ladies looking for any slip in their actions to bring charges against a policeman.


+1, exactly the point I was making in comment #30 in this thread.


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## TarfHead (7 Apr 2011)

This word has, regrettably, become part of the venacular among some people. I've seen it used inappropriately on message boards and, IIRC, a pundit on SKY Sports used it to describe a tackle by a defender on an opponent.

IMHO, this was used in a private coversation and did not constitute a threat to commit a criminal act. The admissibility of a private conversation, recorded without consent, would seem to be weak.

Anyone who tries to link a casual and stupid remark, with an ambivalence towards a criminal act is, IMHO, stretching it too far.


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## monagt (7 Apr 2011)

Quote: " can tell the difference between an edgy joke toldby a comedian and Gardai who has these women in custody, and that is the point.-  horusd"
No, I think you cannot.
You also, have a penchant for stating and restating the obvious.

Quote: "These comments be ok as a joke to a Ban Garda? - horusd"
No, of course not!
These remarks were not made to a woman, in the company of women or for transmission to a woman.

Quote: "There is at least anecdotal evidence that some Gardai do indeed abuse their powers - horusd"

Actually untrue. There is real evidence that some Gardai have abused their powers, for example, McBreary case in Donegal.
Thats why we have Gardai procedures and the Ombudsman who now should be allowed to get on with it.

Trial by media, the "hang them high" mob, the "society of moral indignation" and so called  "concerned citizens" is never good.


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## thedaras (7 Apr 2011)

horusd said:


> Would these comments be ok as a joke to a Ban Garda? Would she see the funny side of this laddish humour


 
My take on this would be, if the tape had been about a female co worker,the people involved would be investigated by HR /gardai ombudsman.Which I presume is happening.

I have no doubt that if it was female co worker,that she would have a union rep onto it and it,that she would not be very happy about it etc.

If this happened in any orgainisation ,it may well be a sackable offence.
Somehow or other many posters seem to think that its fine because it was the Guards having a laugh on private time..it was not,private time,they were on duty,they were in uniform ,they were being paid to do their job.
Some say it was a trivial remark, it wasnt ,it was a conversation..No one said ,lads thats not on,which as another poster said,is what stops this culture..so it would appear this is normal and accepatable behavior.

You can bet your bottom dollar that if a similar tape was found in most other orgainisations that they would be sacked.
They are representing us while they are on duty ,they are not on private time.
Did you hear about the off duty guard who was fined over a grand for behaviour unbecoming and that was on "private time" ,so that argument doesnt hold water.
Another poster said that a guard let him away with something,which he could have lost his job over,well there you go..thats power for you,and there we were thinking there were there to enforce the law!!Now there is a guard who should be sacked!


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## Betsy Og (7 Apr 2011)

Its totally clear that the conversation, as a whole, was humorous, even if the particular remark was not. As to people who say "Why didnt someone say thats not on?", in the context of the conversation is was a poor joke in a run of banter, it was clear to all that not serious, so you'd look like a total eejit to go, with your serious head "Ooh, thats not on." Everyone else would look at you like you had 10 heads, and tell you that its obviously a joke.

Anyone who hangs out with groups of men in pubs, dressingrooms etc hears loads of non-pc stuff, most of it in jest, that they wouldnt agree it or mightnt say themselves. But are we all meant to be thought police?? (no pun intended), going around telling everyone to cop on??

If someone made a serious comment about intent to rape I'd report them, in the meantime I'll just think it was a bad joke, or if their jokes are regularly in poor taste that they're a bit of an ignoramus. But I'm not their Mammy, they have a right to free speech as long as they're not hurting anyone. So should we take it upon ourselves to re-educate them??, and how successful do you think we'd be???


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## Sunny (7 Apr 2011)

Betsy Og said:


> But are we all meant to be thought police?? (no pun intended), going around telling everyone to *cop on*??


 
Two puns in one sentence. Outstanding!


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## horusd (7 Apr 2011)

monagt said:


> Quote: " can tell the difference between an edgy joke toldby a comedian and Gardai who has these women in custody, and that is the point.- horusd"



No, I think you cannot.* Your evidence for this is?*
You also, have a penchant for stating and restating the obvious.

Quote: "These comments be ok as a joke to a Ban Garda? - horusd"
No, of course not!
These remarks were not made to a woman, in the company of women or for transmission to a woman.
*Sometimes the obvious needs restating because it is clearly not obvious to some, or if it is, they choose to ignore it.*


Quote: "There is at least anecdotal evidence that some Gardai do indeed abuse their powers - horusd"

Actually untrue. There is real evidence that some Gardai have abused their powers, for example, McBreary case in Donegal.
Thats why we have Gardai procedures and the Ombudsman who now should be allowed to get on with it.


*Anecdotal evidence of some garda being pushy, rude or overbearing is fairly commonplace.*

Trial by media, the "hang them high" mob, the "society of moral indignation" and so called "concerned citizens" is never good.

*you are jumping to conclusions, and not for the first time. You will note in every one of my posts, the proviso's "alleged", "if true" etc. You were the one to say they "must be racists as well as rapists." and in any event my point is a broader point about power, attitudes and equality, not neccessarily connected to this case, but merely highlighted by it's implications.*


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## monagt (7 Apr 2011)

Quote: "Anecdotal evidence of some garda being pushy, rude or overbearing is fairly commonplace."

Shouting does not make you correct.

You obviously have had a bad "experience" with a member of the Gardai.

Everyone agrees it was inappropriate and disciplinary action should be taken.

It should be left at that.


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## horusd (7 Apr 2011)

Monagt again you rush to incorrect assumptions. I am not shouting, and where you got that idea baffles me.  I have had no problem with Gardai, this is another assumption that seems to fit into your rationale, but not to reality. And I agree that the allegations should be investigated and appropriate action taken, if the allegiations are substantiated, and after due process.


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## truthseeker (7 Apr 2011)

Betsy Og said:


> As to people who say "Why didnt someone say thats not on?", in the context of the conversation is was a poor joke in a run of banter, it was clear to all that not serious, so you'd look like a total eejit to go, with your serious head "Ooh, thats not on." Everyone else would look at you like you had 10 heads, and tell you that its obviously a joke.


 
I dont agree with this Betsy Og and I have no problem with speaking up if I think an inappropriate remark has been made, and I dont care if it makes me look like an eejit.

I have previously told people that their remarks are racist or otherwise derogatory in a work environment (people in a higher position than me) and never once have I been looked at like I have 10 heads. In fact, quite the opposite, the people involved have looked suitably abashed and have taken back what theyve said. 

Sometimes it takes someone to speak up to highlight the inappropriate talk and stop it in its tracks. Id never not speak up if I felt what was being said was offensive - and if people thought I was an eejit because of it - well, Ive little concern for the opinion of people who think its ok to speak inappropriately.


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## monagt (7 Apr 2011)

Use of Higher Case == shouting.
No problems with a Guard - Hmm, but you are correct, it is an assumption.
You are a bit excitable! But we basically agree.

-> M 
->_Chill and get of the treadmill_


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## monagt (7 Apr 2011)

truthseeker, Yes, if some thought I has said something inappropriate, I would be delighted if they would say it to me so I could retract, explain or apologise.


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## MrMan (7 Apr 2011)

Horusd - 'If a Garda joked that they would love to hang tha*t particular* traveller or n***er in their custody would/could we find that acceptable? You are comparing apples & oranges'

The above sentence is the exact moment where reason has left the building. If any of the guards said 'I would love to rape the woman in custody' I think we would be looking at a completely different scenario. What actually happened if we can stick to that is that they made fun of the scene that they had previously encountered. I don't know why you throw travellers or derogatory terms into your argument, but I would be just as horrified to hear them say they wanted to hang your average white man as much as any ethnic group. It is sentances like yours above that highlights how little thought people give to making startling assumptions.


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## horusd (7 Apr 2011)

Mongat, either I have the wrong glasses on or you are mistaken in thinking I used upper case. But let's leave it at that! I'm very chilled, but a good barney gets the blood going, so no problemo !


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## emmt (7 Apr 2011)

Sorry Betsy Og, but Im taking you up on a point you made again - it isnt personal!



> But I'm not their Mammy, they have a right to free speech as long as they're not hurting anyone. So should we take it upon ourselves to re-educate them??, and how successful do you think we'd be???



A friend of my hubby's made a joke about rape in front of me. I found it really offensive and told him - even though it did make me feel uncomfortable doing it but Id feel worse if i didnt.

We dont need to try and re-educate people, just let it be known that there things that can offend people. If we can try and make our feelings known - in a rational, reasonable way - I think it benefits society...there have to be some boundaries


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## TarfHead (7 Apr 2011)

monagt said:


> ->_Chill and get of the treadmill_


 
Typo #3


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## Betsy Og (7 Apr 2011)

A colleague of mine (higher up) has an unfortunate phrase about unforseen problems "the n-word in the woodpile", now I know he doesnt mean anything by it, by I recall one day saying to him - in a ****take fashion - "I prefer the term African American". 

So it just illustrates my point that appearing puritanical, as would seem to be the way advocated here, isnt necessarily the only way. If someone didnt intend to offend, or were just joking/messing, I think its a bit OTT to go ballistic, or go on major guilt trips about it.


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## truthseeker (7 Apr 2011)

Betsy Og said:


> If someone didnt intend to offend, or were just joking/messing, I think its a bit OTT to go ballistic, or go on major guilt trips about it.


 
Not intending to offend is not an excuse for offending.


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## micmclo (7 Apr 2011)

Eeny, meeny, miny, moe,
Catch the nigger by the toe.
If he squeals let him go,
Eeny, meeny, miny, moe, 

That's what we had back when I was a child.
Don't think we even knew what it meant. 

What do the kids use these days, any parents here?


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## fizzelina (7 Apr 2011)

micmclo said:


> Eeny, meeny, miny, moe,
> Catch the nigger by the toe.
> If he squeals let him go,
> Eeny, meeny, miny, moe,
> ...


 

my young nephew says "catch the tiger by the toe"
It was nigger in my day as well but in fairness that was back when there wasn't 1 black child in the school. And we didn't know what nigger meant.


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## Sunny (7 Apr 2011)

micmclo said:


> Eeny, meeny, miny, moe,
> Catch the nigger by the toe.
> If he squeals let him go,
> Eeny, meeny, miny, moe,
> ...


 
I am deeply offended. How do we know you are not in a position of power where you can grab African American people by their toes until they squeal?


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## Betsy Og (7 Apr 2011)

truthseeker said:


> Not intending to offend is not an excuse for offending.


 
I think its relevant to the culpability though - isnt intent the difference between murder and manslaughter, a straight red versus a yellow or a cautionary word.

Plus, depending on the breath of the audience, there will be the serially offended, and those offended on behalf of others. So maybe people should either harden up a little bit, dont put themselves in an environment where they might hear anything they wouldnt like, or best yet accept that people will say foolish things & make your point if you must but dont read too much into it if it was something said in jest.


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## monagt (7 Apr 2011)

Oopps Hoursd, I meant BOLD.
As you say a good Barney


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## monagt (7 Apr 2011)

Quote: "Not intending to offend is not an excuse for offending." truthseeker

Different cultures - what is not offensive in one may be in another so Yes there may be an excuse for offending,

What about Robinsons Jam, B&W minstrel show, none of these were meant to give offence but were changed when society decided they may do so.

We are all Off Track - lightening bolt coming from Moderator.

Think this debate has run its course here.


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## moneyhoney (7 Apr 2011)

I'm a bit horrified by many people's reaction to this story.

The Gardaí in question didn't joke about having sex with a woman. They joked about RAPE.

Would you be so dismissive/accepting if they'd joked about beating the living day daylights out of someone?


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## Sunny (7 Apr 2011)

moneyhoney said:


> Would you be so dismissive/accepting if they'd joked about beating the living day daylights out of someone?


 
Of course I would. I say I am going to kill people all the time. Nobody is dismissing or accepting anything. We all agree that the comments were stupid. I simply want to know why Prime Time decide to do a piece on it, it is on front page of our national media, politicians are commenting in the Dail, there are two investigations, Amnesty International are sending people to the Corrib, the women involved are holding press conferences saying local people are in danger. All this because of stupid immature tasteless remarks made between three men.


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## Yorrick (7 Apr 2011)

I understand that Enda Kenny told a joke using the N word as the Yanks put it.
Disgraceful I say. He should be made resign.


Everyone please get a grip. Its no wonder our political masters can get away with their incompetence when the nation gets engrossed on something like this


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## Shawady (7 Apr 2011)

Didn't Mary O'Rourke thank her canvessers after the 2007 election for "Working like blacks"?


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## Purple (7 Apr 2011)

Yorrick said:


> Everyone please get a grip. Its no wonder our political masters can get away with their incompetence when the nation gets engrossed on something like this


 Very well said.


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## BK0001 (7 Apr 2011)

The guards can say what ever they like about hippie protestors, male or female.


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## truthseeker (7 Apr 2011)

monagt said:


> Different cultures - what is not offensive in one may be in another so Yes there may be an excuse for offending,


 
Is there any culture in which rape is considered ok and something to be joked about?



monagt said:


> What about Robinsons Jam, B&W minstrel show, none of these were meant to give offence but were changed when society decided they may do so.


 
This is more to do with something once not seen as offensive becoming offensive as peoples attitudes change over time. 

I dont think that rape could be bundled into the same category - its a violent crime punishable by law - the comparisons with racism of the past where the offensive word/idea was a label rather than an act - arent quite the same.


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## micmclo (7 Apr 2011)

monagt said:


> What about Robinsons Jam, B&W minstrel show, none of these were meant to give offence but were changed when society decided they may do so.



I don't know those examples.
But I remember reading the Famous Five and the Secret Seven. Sure I bet many here read Enid Blython.

And nowadays you get complaints about using golliwoggs in books.
But it was written in the language of the day, the reprints get edited now.

Bit offtopic from the Corrib story


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## thedaras (7 Apr 2011)

Well it looks like those of us who found the remarks to be unacceptable,have been proven correct,as according to TV3, four of the five have been confined to indoor duty's at a different station,,and the fifth one confined to his own station on indoor duty..for now

Glad to see that at least some members of the Gardai and some members of the public have seen this to be unacceptable and not a culture that should be encouraged..
http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0407/corrib.html

They have acknowledged to the Superintendent that carried out the inquiry that the comments were unacceptable and should not have been made, it is believed.


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## Sunny (7 Apr 2011)

Eh, where did anyone in the 5 pages of this thread say they found these comments acceptable or even remotely funny? What many people can't understand is the hysterical reaction. I notice victim groups after initial condemnation let it drop but today we have press conferences from shell to sea calling for international inquiries, accusing unnamed guards of punching women in the stomach and saying that local women were in danger.


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## Betsy Og (7 Apr 2011)

We can all sleep sound now that this menace has been removed from our streets.......


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## monagt (7 Apr 2011)

Quote: _Is there any culture in which rape is considered ok and something to be joked about?_ - truthseeker

That question I cannot answer and I would guess neither can you.

Quote: _I dont think that rape could be bundled into the same category - its a violent crime punishable by law - the comparisons with racism of the past where the offensive word/idea was a label rather than an act - arent quite the same. _Truthseeker

Yes, you are correct - "_its a violent crime punishable by law" _

So what do you suggest we do then - sack them in disgrace, impoverish their families, maybe we can exile them on an island.

Quote: "Well it looks like those of us who found the remarks to be unacceptable,have been proven correct," - thedaras

Can those of us that found it acceptable Step Forward? ( I don't anyone did)

Quote: "Eh, where did anyone in the 5 pages of this thread say they found these comments acceptable or even remotely funny?" - Sunny

EXACTLY my point +1


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## MrMan (7 Apr 2011)

thedaras said:


> Well it looks like those of us who found the remarks to be unacceptable,have been proven correct,as according to TV3, four of the five have been confined to indoor duty's at a different station,,and the fifth one confined to his own station on indoor duty..for now
> 
> Glad to see that at least some members of the Gardai and some members of the public have seen this to be unacceptable and not a culture that should be encouraged..
> http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0407/corrib.html
> ...


 
I would imagine the disciplinary action is more down to public relations rather than proof that those who yelped in righteous indignation were correct.


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## Leper (7 Apr 2011)

Yes, I think common sense prevailed and now what next for the Bleeding Hearts Club?


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## mugga (7 Apr 2011)

the shell to sea crowd are milking it for all it's worth, that girl on tv tonight I doubt is afraid of anything.  The gardai made a silly , inappropriate joke and that's about all it is. It's being made into a mountain of an event when it's just a molehill.


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## Bronte (8 Apr 2011)

What exactly does everyone want?  What punishment do they think is appropriate for 5 men making a very rude dirty joke in private?


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## Ciaraella (8 Apr 2011)

The shell to sea protestors are looking worse and worse by the day, it's obvious that they are using this bit of tape to draw attention to their protest. 
People should be more offended by their actions than the garda conversation, they are using the shock value of the word rape to gain publicity for their campaign, that's something i find more disgusting and callous than the original conversation.


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## MANTO (8 Apr 2011)

I wonder how much this is going to cost the taxpayer


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## Yorrick (8 Apr 2011)

111 complaints against the Gardai by Shell to Sea etc have ben found by the Garda Ombudsman to be unfounded. This is an indepeendent body established to investigate complaints against police.
Shell to Sea don't accept this. Is it only independent when it rules in your favour or maybe most if not all the complaints are nuisance complaints ?


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## JP1234 (8 Apr 2011)

Ciaraella said:


> The shell to sea protestors are looking worse and worse by the day, it's obvious that they are using this bit of tape to draw attention to their protest.
> People should be more offended by their actions than the garda conversation, they are using the shock value of the word rape to gain publicity for their campaign, that's something i find more disgusting and callous than the original conversation.



I have been considering how to respond to this thread but that just summed it up perfectly for me.


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## Leper (8 Apr 2011)

Yep, I'm with Ciarella also.  I wonder if these two protesters ever have children of their own and if their children go to university and if they (the children) enjoy the usual copious amount of pints on a Thursday night with their friends from college and if they become somewhat boisterous afterwards . . . would they be clamouring for forgiveness from the recipients of their noise.

I have never seen a country like dear ol' Ireland for making sacred cows of nothingness.


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## monagt (8 Apr 2011)

Yep, I'm with Ciarella also. Me 2


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## Purple (9 Apr 2011)

I see the crusties scrubbed up and made their way to Dublin for a bit of an auld protest today.


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## johnd (9 Apr 2011)

I find it odd that the name of one the women was 'leaked' to the media by the Gardai but the names of the three  Gardai who had the conversation was not. I think it shows that certain journalists see their role as being the public voice of the Gardai and report exactly what they are told by them.  The Evening Herald would be a prime example of this.

The Gardai have great powers over the personal liberty of people - and for that reasons they also gave a great responsibility.


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## kieran160 (9 Apr 2011)

in the *full length recording* at the time of the womens arrests one of the women says she does not want her friend left alone with the gardai, quote "im not letting her go, shes not safe with him", maybe they were taking p**s out of that particular womens comment, i.e what does she think we will do?? rape her friend if she does not give her name and address??!!...


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## Sunny (9 Apr 2011)

johnd said:


> I find it odd that the name of one the women was 'leaked' to the media by the Gardai but the names of the three  Gardai who had the conversation was not. I think it shows that certain journalists see their role as being the public voice of the Gardai and report exactly what they are told by them.  The Evening Herald would be a prime example of this.
> 
> The Gardai have great powers over the personal liberty of people - and for that reasons they also gave a great responsibility.



Unless i missed something Only one woman has publically revealed and that was because she came forward. She claims her details were leaked to journalists but again there is no evidence of this. Strange how the other woman managed to stay out of the papers but this one claimed she couldn't.

By the way, stop stealing lines from spiderman!


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## Purple (9 Apr 2011)

Sunny said:


> By the way, stop stealing lines from spiderman!



It's used in all Marvel Comics.


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## Teatime (10 Apr 2011)

truthseeker said:


> Is there any culture in which rape is considered ok and something to be joked about?


 
This is one of my favourite movies:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3BRI7WFYVU


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## monagt (10 Apr 2011)

"18 per cent of those polled believed they should be sacked." Indo

Unbelievable, nearly 20% want to destitute the Gardai and their families!!

Talk about a balanced society.


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## Purple (10 Apr 2011)

Teatime said:


> This is one of my favourite movies:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3BRI7WFYVU



You have good taste!


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## becky (10 Apr 2011)

monagt said:


> "18 per cent of those polled believed they should be sacked." Indo
> 
> Unbelievable, nearly 20% want to destitute the Gardai and their families!!
> 
> Talk about a balanced society.



I think it shows 82% don't believe they should be sacked.


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## monagt (11 Apr 2011)

Sacking should not come into it! No crime was committed or even planned.


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## moneyhoney (11 Apr 2011)

Bronte said:


> What exactly does everyone want?  What punishment do they think is appropriate for 5 men making a very rude dirty joke in private?



I think you are missing the point that many people are making. A "joke" about rape is not a "rude dirty joke". A joke about sex might be rude & dirty....and a joke. 

It's entirely different. Sex and rape have as little to do with eachother as love and domestic violence. 

If you want to read someone else's view on what rape actually does to its victims, I suggest you read this. 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/09/city-of-joy-congo-women-rape


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## Sunny (11 Apr 2011)

moneyhoney said:


> I think you are missing the point that many people are making. A "joke" about rape is not a "rude dirty joke". A joke about sex might be rude & dirty....and a joke.
> 
> It's entirely different. Sex and rape have as little to do with eachother as love and domestic violence.
> 
> ...


 
I don't think anyone needs to be lectured on the impact of rape. I doubt those guards need to be lectured on the impact of rape. They have probably seen the affects of rape on victims first hand and not through the pages of a newspaper. 

Again, you are assuming that because they made those comments, they in some way lacked proper understanding or empathy with rape victims. I don't see how. If everything I ever said in jest was to be held up as an inidcator of my views on certain subjects , I would probably be seen as a sexist, racist homophobic, intolerent fashist pig. And only a couple of things are true! 

They were guilty of a lack of a judgement and deserved to be reprimanded. They didn't derserve to be portrayed as some sort of cheerleaders for rape.


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## monagt (11 Apr 2011)

"I don't think anyone needs to be lectured on the impact of rape"

Totally agree with Sunny's comments, the post by Moneyhoney smacks of arrogance and talking down to people. 

People don't not need to be lectured on what rape is or its effects on the victims and their families.


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## Teatime (11 Apr 2011)

+1


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## Purple (11 Apr 2011)

+1


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## horusd (11 Apr 2011)

We seem to be talking at cross-purposes here. Sunny et al, your right nobody needs to be lectured on rape, and that wasn't my intention. Having said that we know rape isn't about sex, its about domination and power.

 These were gardai speaking of women in their power. It was intended as a private conversation. Okay, then the issue is whether it's acceptable for anyone to "joke" like this when acting officially. Given their jobs, they have a particular need to exercise caution and sensitivity, and this incident suggests at least a strange viewpoint and _perhaps _points to a skewed view of women in the force. It could be a one-off, but not neccessarily.

 It was "gallows type humour": unfortunate, mistaken, ill-advised. Perhaps it was this, nonetheless, given the Gardai's special position in society, it needs to be and is being addressed.

It was equivalent to any other edgy comments, jokes, asides others might make. Perhaps, but again a rape joke by a Garda about a women in their power is not the same.

Corrib Gas protesters are exploiting it. Most likely they are. Again, it's not relevant whether it was about Mother Teresa or these women, or whether the "victims" are protestors, it should not have been joked about.

Gardai hold a special position in our society. The internal culture of the organisation should not permit this. Apparently a cited Sargeant was present, he should have nipped this in the bud, he didn't.


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## ali (11 Apr 2011)

[QUOTE Eeny, meeny, miny, moe,
Catch the nigger by the toe.
If he squeals let him go,
Eeny, meeny, miny, mo QUOTE]

My cousin who is black was adopted from an orphanage in cork 40 + years ago. He was so unusual (race wise, in Dublin) that when neighbours kids called over the fence: "Nigger Nigger Nigger", he used to call back Nigger Nigger Nigger; as he had no idea what they were talking about. 




> Of course I would. I say I am going to kill people all the time. Nobody is dismissing or accepting anything. We all agree that the comments were stupid. I simply want to know why Prime Time decide to do a piece on it, it is on front page of our national media, politicians are commenting in the Dail, there are two investigations, Amnesty International are sending people to the Corrib, the women involved are holding press conferences saying local people are in danger. All this because of stupid immature tasteless remarks made between three men.


 
At the risk of either stating the obvious, or creating a bigger row, I would respectfully point out that the gut response to this issue may will be divided across gender lines. 

The reaction of women to rape is very different to that of men. Men (I think) consider rape akin to a lesser offence than murder and probably sometimes, depending on the violence of the offence, to a lesser offence than a serious physical assault. To women, it is an extremely emotive issue. I would almost never leave my house worried that I might be robbed, beaten or murdered, but I would almost always (on a night out for example); be aware of the threat of rape. It is so omnipresent in all of our subconcious that we almost consider it normal. 

We say to each other and to our wives, daughters, friends: Don't take a taxi home on your own. Don't walk home alone. Don't leave the party without your friends. We don't verbalise it but we are aware that the threat is constantly present. 
There are thousands and thousands of reported rapes every year. They are the ones which are reported - officially considered to be less than a third of the actual number which occur. There aren't 3 or 4 rapists in Ireland commiting all these rapes. It is more commonplace than we like to admit or confront.

I would prefer ( if that's a suitable term) to be assaulted for my handbag and end up with a couple of broken ribs or a broken jaw than to be raped. Do men get this? Rape goes to the very core of your physical and bodily and mental integrity and right to exist as a person and not as someone's whim.

And men do not *in general* live under this constant unspoken and practically 'second nature' threat which limits and controls women's behaviour, without them almost being aware of it.

So if you live with this and you know that it is prevalent in society and you know that if it happens to you and you get the courage of your convictions to report it; then you will be going to the same guys who joke about the subject in what they (rightfully) thought was a private conversation. That is what makes it so much worse.


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## Leper (11 Apr 2011)

The whole episode was started by a simple laddism conversation.  Nobody was going to be raped.  Nobody was going to be hurt.  

And yet the Bleeding Hearts have blown the whole episode out of all proportion.  The Gardaí were the victims here.


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## monagt (11 Apr 2011)

Quote: "And men do not in general live under this constant unspoken and practically 'second nature' threat which limits and controls women's behaviour, without them almost being aware of it."

>>>>>>>> Sexist and Paranoid.


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## horusd (11 Apr 2011)

monagt said:


> Quote: "And men do not in general live under this constant unspoken and practically 'second nature' threat which limits and controls women's behaviour, without them almost being aware of it."
> 
> >>>>>>>> Sexist and Paranoid.


 
As women  represent the vast majority of rape cases, and as ali is speaking from her own experience and probably that of many women, it is neither sexist or paranoid, it's just plain true from her perspective and she has a valid right to say it. In fact, she has taken considerable time to try and explain why she feels as she feels, and that should not be dismissed, rather it should be understood, which is clearly her intention. 

As it happens, and I only mention it because it has been raised by ali, I am a man, but I can fully appreciate her sentiments. The key point made here, again and again, is this is not a trivial matter. I don't want any Garda's head on a plate, or his job, but this is not an issue to be blithely dimissed. And the Garda Commissioner, fair play to him, has been quick out of the traps to say that it won't be. This is definitely my last post on it. Enuf said.


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## Diziet (11 Apr 2011)

monagt said:


> Quote: "And men do not in general live under this constant unspoken and practically 'second nature' threat which limits and controls women's behaviour, without them almost being aware of it."
> 
> >>>>>>>> Sexist and Paranoid.



Neither sexist, nor paranoid - it was actually a very well explained post.


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## thedaras (12 Apr 2011)

Diziet said:


> Neither sexist, nor paranoid - it was actually a very well explained post.



Plus 1


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## csirl (12 Apr 2011)

horusd said:


> As women represent the vast majority of rape cases,


 
The majority of rape cases are child abuse cases and the victims are as likely to be male as female.




> I would prefer ( if that's a suitable term) to be assaulted for my handbag and end up with a couple of broken ribs or a broken jaw than to be raped. Do men get this?


 
I think most people do get this and fortunately our laws reflect this. In our court system, rape is almost on a par with murder - rape and murder are tried in the Central Criminal Court and are the only 2 violent crimes that are automatically tried at this level. Rape is considered a more serious crime than manslaughter or serious assaults, which are circuit criminal cases.


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## MrMan (12 Apr 2011)

horusd said:


> As women  represent the vast majority of rape cases, and as ali is speaking from her own experience and probably that of many women, it is neither sexist or paranoid, it's just plain true from her perspective and she has a valid right to say it. In fact, she has taken considerable time to try and explain why she feels as she feels, and that should not be dismissed, rather it should be understood, which is clearly her intention.
> 
> As it happens, and I only mention it because it has been raised by ali, I am a man, but I can fully appreciate her sentiments. The key point made here, again and again, is this is not a trivial matter. I don't want any Garda's head on a plate, or his job, but this is not an issue to be blithely dimissed. And the Garda Commissioner, fair play to him, has been quick out of the traps to say that it won't be. This is definitely my last post on it. Enuf said.



Of course it is sexist. Men consider in some cases that assault is a worse offence than rape! sure sounds like a sweeping generalisation of a gender. As a man believe it or not I can expand my thought processes to include the well being of others. I often tell my oh if she is going away with friends or out without me to not come home alone, and if anything happens to stay put because while I don't expect her to get raped, I don't want any chance to be taken because once it has happened it is not something that can be fixed (she laughs at me for being paranoid - go figure). I would also consider sexual crimes to be the worst purely because of the emotional carnage that long outlasts the physical.

Far more women than men get raped and men are generally the perpetrators of this crime. As you say there is supposed to be a high level of unreported rape, but unfortunately there is also alot of girls who cry wolf and it is the use of claim of rape to further a cause, damage a reputation or to alleviate oneself from guilt that stands to create to greatest injustice. 

If we want to argue about rape and justice, argue about stronger sentances for actual rapists, strong sentances for those who lie about being raped and argue less about the rights and wrongs of a stupid conversation. 
Guards do have power, but they are also human and fallible, they didn't commit a crime and that is the bottom line.


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## Bronte (12 Apr 2011)

ali said:


> The reaction of women to rape is very different to that of men. Men (I think) consider rape akin to a lesser offence than murder and probably sometimes, depending on the violence of the offence, to a lesser offence than a serious physical assault. .


 
I wouldn't make such an assumption about men.  I think that's insulting to men.


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## thedaras (12 Apr 2011)

Didnt one of the posters say it was "laddish" behavior to joke about rape?


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## monagt (12 Apr 2011)

"Guards do have power, but they are also human and fallible, they didn't commit a crime and that is the bottom line."
+1

"I wouldn't make such an assumption about men. I think that's insulting to men."
+1

"Didnt one of the posters say it was "laddish" behavior to joke about rape?"

So you then make a sweeping generlisation to include all men!! - That is sexist.

And yes Ali is paranoid.


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## MrMan (12 Apr 2011)

thedaras said:


> Didnt one of the posters say it was "laddish" behavior to joke about rape?



Laddish behaviour is seen as often in women as in men these days. The advent of the ladette a decade or so ago has shown that boorish behaviour doesn't exist only in one gender.


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## thedaras (12 Apr 2011)

thedaras





> "Didnt one of the posters say it was "laddish" behavior to joke about rape?"



monagt





> So you then make a sweeping generlisation to include all men!! - That is sexist.



What are you talking about?, where did I make this sweeping generalisation?Where did I day "all men"?



monagt





> And yes Ali is paranoid.



Really you need to calm down, ,calling someone paranoid,is uncalled for.


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## thedaras (12 Apr 2011)

monagt said:


> "*But let's not spoil the wet dreams of those who insist on posting about inter-bank bond ratings on a message board that has nothing whatsoever to do with inter-bank bonds."*



 "wet dreams",and it wasn't on the depths..interesting to see that most people dont in fact use these type of terms on here ..there is no need for it..

Also if you want to get into generalisations ,how about this one?

monagt





> females can be a bit messy but easier on your property than beer drinking/take away males. (I know its a generalisation but its experience talkin)


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## MrMan (12 Apr 2011)

thedaras said:


> What are you talking about?, where did I make this sweeping generalisation?Where did I day "all men"?



You didn't you just agreed with another posters sweeping generalisation.


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## MrMan (12 Apr 2011)

thedaras said:


> "wet dreams",and it wasn't on the depths..interesting to see that most people dont in fact use these type of terms on here ..there is no need for it..
> 
> Also if you want to get into generalisations ,how about this one?
> 
> monagt



Monagt did indeed make a generalisation in another unrelated thread, and again i would say that it is another incorrect generalisation


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## monagt (12 Apr 2011)

WOW, what an investigation and a personal attack.

When you are wrong you're wrong, get over it.

The "wet dreams"  and "inter-bank bonds" must have been a quote from a newspaper or web site as these are not words I use, can you point me to the actual post?

And the second was an observation based on lots of personal experience renting properties.

If thats the best you can come up with.


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## truthseeker (12 Apr 2011)

monagt - the wet dreams comment was actually you quoting another poster in this thread. It wasnt you saying it.


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## monagt (12 Apr 2011)

Thx Truthseeker 

I checked the link so I'm off the hook on that one, an apology from
*thedaras *will I presume come in time.

Anyway, we are way of track and enuff has been said about the topic.

monagt out;


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## thedaras (12 Apr 2011)

Here is how your post went.I might add that if you choose to use" quotes" and they are not yours ,it would be an idea to mention who the quote is from,otherwise its taken that the quote is yours as can be seen below.

monagt  
Frequent Poster

Posts: 102

monagt





> "But let's not spoil the wet dreams of those who insist on posting about inter-bank bond ratings on a message board that has nothing whatsoever to do with inter-bank bonds."
> 
> Everything is connected - if I had taken action to protect my pensions and investments when I saw Northern Rock investors going into panic, I would be a less poorer man today.
> 
> ...



It still leaves the fact that you have "generalised " yourself as per this;

Monagt;Posts: 103
 Re: Advice Required on renting to Students


> Any references from 1st yr digs?
> *Are they male or female - females can be a bit messy but easier on your property than beer drinking/take away males. (I know its a generalisation but its experience talkin*)


And yes thanks Truthseeker for pointing that out


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## monagt (12 Apr 2011)

thedaras 

Chill and get of the Treadmill!


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## Leper (12 Apr 2011)

Hey folks, This whole topic is getting out of hand.  I think the matter has been discussed to the nth degree.  Time to call a halt, I think.


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## Teatime (12 Apr 2011)

Yes, please close this thread. Its much ado about nothing.


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## monagt (12 Apr 2011)

teatime said:


> yes, please close this thread. Its much ado about nothing.


 

+1


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## ajapale (12 Apr 2011)

This thread has been dragged off topic and is now closed.


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