# Tenants painted the house and now want rent reduced for 1 month for that



## Greta (29 Nov 2010)

I need some advice. We have had the tenants in our house for 5 years and they have generally been good tenants, though prone to be a bit late with rent (which they pay directly to our letting agent) but nothing major. Last year we had to reduce rent twice and they are now paying 1000 euro p.m. There 3 men sharing. As they are builders, life must have been rather difficult for them over the last few years but between 3 of them they are managing.

The house was totally repainted just before they moved in. Then 2 or 3 years later they asked for the living room and hall, stairs & landing to be repainted, and we agreed and paid for this. Now our letting agent tells us that they repainted the whole house themselves WITHOUT telling him first, and now want us to reduce their rent for this month by 500 or 600 euro for this. The rent this month is almost 2 weeks late now and still not paid (to us - I don't know if it is the agent who is sitting on it, or the tenants, but we haven't received it yet).

Recently the agent sent us a bill for a new cooker, saying that the old one broke and had to be replaced, and we paid for it, no quibbles. 

Now the tenants are also asking for the bathroom taps & shower to be changed as they are broken - and, as one of the tenants is a plumber, our agent has asked him for a quote to carry out this job.

Also the tenants now want the light in the living room replaced, complaining that it is broken.

We would have had no problem paying for the repainting if our agent told us it was needed and 500 euro is not a lot for a whole house. But what worries me is that the tenants did it without approval - and we don't want to let the situation develop when they do whatever work they please around the house, whether it is needed or not, and then expect their rent to be reduced for that.

Similar concerns about using one of the tenants for the plumbing work - don't want to encourage them not to pay proper rent.

I'd like to hear from more experienced landlords - what's the best for us to do? So that we don't end up with tenants always reducing their rent on account of some work they did (maybe unnecessary or not of good quality). But on the other side and especially in the current climate we don't want to lose good tenants. They are Polish and we have been worrying since the crisis started that they might go back to Poland, but these signs (painting the house, getting new cooker etc) seem to suggest that they don't want to move anytime soon. Which is actually good

So we are not quite sure what to do. We are thinking of speaking to the agent and trying to impress upon him, that he should not allow any unauthorised work by tenants in future - that we reduce their rent for one month by 500 euro (or maybe by lower amount?) but we aren't going to reimburse any unauthorised work in future. 

Regarding fixing the bathroom/shower, we are thinking of telling the agent to get at least one other quote, not just from the tenant, and then go with the lowest. If he does decide to use the tenant to fix it, then to insist that they pay full rent and get paid for the plumbing work separately.

We have no objections to the replacement of the living room light, as it is 14 years old, so could probably do with being replaced.

So, any thoughts?


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## pixiebean22 (30 Nov 2010)

First, you need to figure out who it is delaying the rent payments every month and take appropriate action.  If the agent is delaying rent payment (which wouldn't surprise me) then you need to speak to them, give them a chance to rectify the problem and if nothing can be done switch agents.  If it is the tenants that are delaying rent payment (which is possible considering there are 3 of them in the house) then you need to speak to them about it and give them a chance to sort themselves out and if nothing can be done you need to consider if you can afford late payments vs. difficulty finding tenants.

To keep the peace I would offer reduced rent in consideration of the painting done but make sure it is clear to them that any further work carried out will not replace a part or full rent payment, it may even be worth your while adding something in the lease regarding this.  

To be honest I would refuse to allow them to carry out any work on the property as they seem to be falling into a pattern of trying to subsidise their rent with work on the house.


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## z107 (30 Nov 2010)

What benefit is the agent giving you if you have to worry about all this stuff?
Are they actually doing anything for their money, or just passing on messages from the tenants?


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## sam h (30 Nov 2010)

I generally try to avoid letting tenants do work as I've been stung with bad workmanship.

But you don't want to lose the tenant either.  Realistically, if they moved out tomorrow, you'd have to redecorate the house anyway.

I would (if it is possible) go to the house & check the quality of the work (& ensure it has been done!).  If they have changed the colour, you will have difficulty when you go to redecorate as you'll have to do more than no coat (there is a reason magnolia is a landlords best friend!!)  

But I would make it very clear that this is the last time anything should be done without your express approval.

TBH, if these are the few things that have had to be replaced after 5 years, you are doing very well.   The odd latness on rent is also to be expected....so long as it's not too frequent & they make it up, it's fairly normal.


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## Greta (30 Nov 2010)

Thanks for the replies!

My husband has spoken with the agent today, to impress upon him that the tenants should be strongly discouraged from carrying out any more unauthorised work or looking to pay reduced rent for any reason. That they should always pay full rent and sort out any other money separately, rather than reducing rent for this and that, to prevent them developing a pattern.

We have decided to let them have 500 euro for painting as a one-off, to keep the peace. We can't inspect the quality of their work ourselves as we live in the UK and the house is in Dublin, and this is why we need an agent. However, the agent has inspected the house and says that the tenants have done a decent job painting it, and that they kept the same colours - white and magnolia.

Regarding the lateness of rent, I suspect the tenants are a l_ittle_ bit late, while the agent also holds on to the rent for a while after getting it - it seems it started happening since he got a new secretary. The previous secretary lodged the rent straight away (the bank is only 1 minute walk away from the agency) but the new one seems to be doing it far less frequently. We can afford to cope with the late payments, just don't want it to be slipping further and further. The rent is due in the middle of month and for this month it was only paid in today (probably after we spoke with the agent)

We have rented the house for 10 years now (it had been our PPR before), and have been with the same agent from the beginning. This is why he probably takes us for granted to some extent, as he is a reasonably good agent and it's hard for us to find a replacement, especially as we are abroad. We tried once 6 years ago, when the house was vacant for 3 months over the summer, but couldn't - other agents seemed to be no better, and some a lot worse. He has generally been good at finding and keeping tenants (no horror stories like I read on this forum), and has arranged all the necessary repairs and maintenance.

The current tenants have been asking for some things now and again - to have the living room repainted (done 2-3 years ago), to have a new sofa (done a year ago), for a new microwave, lawnmower etc., and central heating had to be fixed a few times. We have always paid for everything, no quibbles. As I said, it is not a problem to pay for repainting, we just don't want the tenants to be developing a pattern of paying reduced rent in return for something or other. But to be fair this is the first time they have done it, so it is probably better to let them have the 500 euro this one time for the sake of the peace. 

Regarding fixing the bathroom shower, the agent is now going to get an independent quote and then ask the tenants if they want to better it. Though I generally don't have a good feeling about letting the tenants do any work, again to prevent a pattern. So far we have told the agent to impress upon them, that they should on no account try to do any important work, especially gas or electric.


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## oneuponwalls (30 Nov 2010)

do not reduce rent for work done until you have inspected it yourself especially for unauthorised work. you are right about letting tenants do the work themselves..... not a good idea. the rent should be paid each month into your a/c. not through a third party.


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## mercman (30 Nov 2010)

oneuponwalls said:


> the rent should be paid each month into your a/c. not through a third party.



100 % correct.

This entire situation sounds like the lunatics are running the asylum !!

What part of the country is the property in ?? Is the rent market rent or less ? My own opinion is that they are getting to familiar, as is the agent, and it might be time to say Au Revoir to these blokes. It is your property and a change is as good as a rest.


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## AlbacoreA (30 Nov 2010)

Its a bad idea to have the agent take the money and pass it on. The rent should go to you then you pay the agent out of that. Then if theres a problem the agent doesn't have access to the months rent. You should be in financial control not the agent. 

I also think its a bad idea to start mixing up a rent with work done. get someone else to do the work, get an invoice, etc, and the tenants should always pay their full rent and on time. Once this starts to slip, it will spiral out of control. 

Seems to me like the tenants are struggling with the rent.


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## Greta (1 Dec 2010)

oneuponwalls said:


> do not reduce rent for work done until you have inspected it yourself especially for unauthorised work. you are right about letting tenants do the work themselves..... not a good idea. the rent should be paid each month into your a/c. not through a third party.



I *can't * inspect the work myself because I don't live there!  The agent HAS inspected the work and says it is ok, I am not going to spend money and time to get there to inspect it myself, it would take me nearly 10 hours one way (or more), it's rather ridiculous. Of course, I would have inspected it, if I lived round the corner from that property, but I do not! I live in another country!

All previous tenants did pay the rent directly into our bank account, but these guys paid it to the agent in cash as they didn't have Irish bank accounts to begin with (having come from Poland). Of course, they do have bank accounts now, but prefer to pay rent as before, dropping into agent's office after work. It has worked out well for 5 years, so I don't see why we should kick up a fuss over it now. The agent usually pays us the full rent anyway, and then sends us invoices for anything, so we post him payment by cheque.

My main concern is unauthorised work, not lateness of rent. The tenants did actually pay full rent this month, which we have now received. As far as I can see, they might be late by a couple of days now and again, but the rent then lies in the agent's safe for a few days more. It's not actually a problem for us, if it is not slipping further and further. I think from now on I'll just drop an email to the agent every time the rent is late by, say, a week, this might speed up his secretary's walk to the bank


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## Greta (1 Dec 2010)

AlbacoreA said:


> I also think its a bad idea to start mixing up a rent with work done. get someone else to do the work, get an invoice, etc, and the tenants should always pay their full rent and on time. Once this starts to slip, it will spiral out of control.
> 
> Seems to me like the tenants are struggling with the rent.



Yes, I agree that rent should not be mixed with work done, and this is why I have written to this forum, but this painting has already happened - and it's the first time the tenants did anything like that. So long as the agent gets it across to them that it's not to be repeated, I am inclined to reimburse them this one time. 

The tenants may well be struggling with the rent, but there are 3 of them and the rent is only 1000 euro p.m., so it's probably manageable.


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## Greta (1 Dec 2010)

mercman said:


> 100 % correct.
> 
> This entire situation sounds like the lunatics are running the asylum !!
> 
> What part of the country is the property in ?? Is the rent market rent or less ? My own opinion is that they are getting to familiar, as is the agent, and it might be time to say Au Revoir to these blokes. It is your property and a change is as good as a rest.



I wrote already that the property is in *Dublin*. It's easy to say things like "the lunatics are running the asylum" but I don't have concerns about the method of rent payment - just that it gets paid The current arrangement worked well for 5 years, so I am OK with that.

I can't get a new agent - as this one *is *reasonably good and, being overseas, it's difficult for us to find a better one! Actually, reading horror stories on this forum about bad letting agents makes me appreciate our agent more 

Though you right to some extent - he has got a bit too familiar, I think having a talk with him now and again helps to concentrate his mind

With the tenants - they have been good tenants for 5 years, don't see a need to throw them out just because they did some painting. And, as you know, tenants can create a lot of problems, being protected by PRTB etc. And it would be difficult to replace them now, we'd lose a lot more than 500 euro for painting...

So I think we'll just keep an eye on the agent, reminding him about the rent if it is late. This is were we have been slipping ourselves. With previous tenants, who paid rent directly into our bank account, we always let the agent know very soon if they were late, so he could chase them, as he wouldn't have known unless we told him. So we always did. And he chased them and got rent to us quickly enough.

With the current tenants the agent always knows when they are late anyway, as they pay rent directly to him, so we were not chasing him over a few days' delays, and it started slipping - I think more on the agent's part than on the tenants. So chasing the agent should help solve the problem.


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## Bronte (1 Dec 2010)

Greta said:


> We have had the tenants in our house for 5 years
> ?


 
When I read this first sentence I though lucky you.  I think the issue may be with the agent but you have to stick with the agent you know based  on your location.  

Nothing unusual about the rent reductions, or the few repairs including repainting that you've mentioned.  It is true that the tenant's should not have repainted but you actually don't know what really happened here.  Being a devil's advocate - it could be they didn't repaint and agent is taking the money (times are tough for estate agents) or they did repaint and asked the agent in advance was it ok and he said it was but forgot to tell you but is not going to admit it or he can't see what a quibble over 500 Euro is.  

You have clearly told the agent now that no unauthorised work is to be carried out.  Hopefully you correspond with the agent by email so that issues going forward are clear between you.  You could change the rent to the men paying by direct debit or lodgement, but then you will have the worry of them paying it late each month and wondering whether you should contact them.  You could also correspond by email with the men so that issues as they arise could be upfront and clear.  That's what I do with some of my tenant's and it works well.    

All in all you've nothing to worry about.  Keep your good tenant's at all costs.  It's tough out there.


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## Greta (1 Dec 2010)

Bronte, thanks for your reply. Yes, we have been lucky to keep the tenants for 5 years, especially as we now have a young child and can't travel easily, so it would be really hard for us if we had to go over there ourselves. Though we would if the tenants moved out but so long as we can keep them, that's much more preferable

I feel that you are right - the problem lies more with the agent than the tenants. I don't think he invented the painting to get 500 euros for himself, but he probably wasn't firm enough with the tenants before. The tenants did actually ask him before painting if he could get the house repainted and he said (according to him) - not now, maybe next year. After that they repainted it themselves. So I don't really see much difference paying for the re-painting now or next year.  I do see a problem with unauthorised work but we have made it clear to the agent now, so hopefully this won't be recurring. 

We do correspond with the agent by email, though we told him from the beginning that he can arrange for necessary repairs/maintenance without asking us first - so long as it is _reasonable_. He always sends us invoices afterwards, so we usually send him a cheque payable directly to the supplier. It has worked well so far.

Now and again - when something comes up - we speak to him on the phone, and we try to drop in and see him when we visit Ireland. Just to make sure he doesn't forget us

So far we have never communicated with the tenants directly. Maybe we should have but we sort of don't want the agent to dump that on us - while still getting his fee Also we can't really arrange for any repair work etc ourselves, so we could end up as a go between the tenants and the agent - let him deal with it directly. 

So, to re-cap: we'll keep a better eye on the agent, reminding him if rent is more than a week late and maybe phoning him more often. If he takes us more seriously, hopefully he'll keep a better eye on the tenants, as he is actually quite a capable agent. We just tend to slip down his list of priorities as we are not there, so we should remind him of ourselves more often


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