# Leaving work voluntarily, entitlements?



## murphaph (28 Sep 2007)

Hi All,
I intend to leave my job in the new year and go to Germany to live for a while (fed up here). I will look for a job when I get over there. I have a house here in Dublin which I owe about 70k on and which I will need to rent out to cover the mortgage. I've been in continuous employment for 12 years and never out of work if that makes any difference.

My questions are:

Am I entitled to any benefits? I heard I have to wait before I can sign on but that I can receive the payments in Germany through their welfare system. Is this correct?

Would I be entitled to any other benefits to do with (say) my mortgage? I'm guessing not but worth asking. Could really help while I seek work over there.


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## dontaskme (28 Sep 2007)

murphaph said:


> Hi All,
> I intend to leave my job in the new year and go to Germany to live for a while (fed up here). I will look for a job when I get over there. I have a house here in Dublin which I owe about 70k on and which I will need to rent out to cover the mortgage. I've been in continuous employment for 12 years and never out of work if that makes any difference.
> 
> My questions are:
> ...


 
hi Murph, if you are receiving Job Seekers Benefit in Ireland and signing on for more than four weeks you can transfer to another EU country for up to 13 weeks. It helps if you have an address in the other country.

There are terms and conditions. 

If you give notice to your employer then your claim may be delayed. It might be easier if your employer gives you notice rather than the other way around. Maybe if you walked up to your boss and said "Fire me!" he might give you your p45 on the spot. 

If you go directly to Germany without a job and without sorting out your benefit you would probably only be entitled to "Sozialgeld" which is a very low amount - about 320 euro + rent.

There is a form that you take with you, it might be e330? If you go to europa.eu or European Commission website you will probably find more info. Or ask your social welfare office.


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## dontaskme (28 Sep 2007)

ok, found the link [broken link removed]

1. You can export your unemployment benefits over a period of three months, on condition that:

you have been receiving unemployment benefit for at least four weeks in the country, which you are leaving. This period can be shortened, however, by the unemployment service concerned
you apply to the competent institution for Document E 303;
you register with the employment services in the country you have moved to within seven working days of your arrival;
you comply with the control procedures organised by the Member State where you are residing.
2. Warning: Regulation (EEC) No 1408/71, Art. 69, states that an unemployed worker "shall lose all entitlement to benefits under the legislation of the competent State if he does not return there before the expiry of that period".
Useful document: E 303. 

And the German "work office" is arbeitsagentur.de.

Vielen Gluck!


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## murphaph (28 Sep 2007)

Ah thanks very much. I wonder <aloud>.....how strict is the 13 weeks? I wonder would it be down to the zealousness or otherwise of the german official? I wonder is it something that people even do very often.

Also.....what's to stop one returning to Ireland after 13 weeks for 4 weeks here and then hot-footing it back to Germany for another 13 weeks? Is that a loophole or have they addressed that in the terms & conditions I wonder??

I'm not a sponger or anything-if I got a job (even paying less than the dole) I'd take it. Just want a break from Ireland and I'll need some time to learn some German to help my chances of getting a job in what I'm qualified in.


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## dontaskme (28 Sep 2007)

murphaph said:


> Ah thanks very much. I wonder <aloud>.....how strict is the 13 weeks? I wonder would it be down to the zealousness or otherwise of the german official? I wonder is it something that people even do very often.
> 
> Also.....what's to stop one returning to Ireland after 13 weeks for 4 weeks here and then hot-footing it back to Germany for another 13 weeks? Is that a loophole or have they addressed that in the terms & conditions I wonder??
> 
> I'm not a sponger or anything-if I got a job (even paying less than the dole) I'd take it. Just want a break from Ireland and I'll need some time to learn some German to help my chances of getting a job in what I'm qualified in.


 
After 13 weeks you would be probably entitled to apply for sozialgeld rather than unemployment benefit. 

As to the strictness, I don't think I've ever heard the phrase "as lenient as a bureaucratic German civil servant". 

Unemployment benefit is paid monthly at the end of the month in Germany.

If you return to Ireland you have to work in the intervening period before you can transfer the benefit again. Not sure what the minimum is, maybe 4 prsi payments? SW office would know.

As to finding work, it would be easier in say, Nuremberg than Berlin.


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## murphaph (28 Sep 2007)

So you reckon even if I didn't work a day in Germany that at the end of the 13 weeks I could possibly claim Sozialgeld? 

I couldn't find the bit about having to work in the intervening period before returing to germany, where does it say that?

As for finding work, well Dresden will actually be my best bet. It's the centre of their electonics industry and that's what I have most experience in. I currently work as a store manager for a "large german discount food retailer" but as my german isn't fluent I can't easily get a transfer to the fatherland. I would expect a solid reference (in german of course!) from my current line manager and if I can get my language skills up to speed I'd be applying to Lidl/Aldi/Real etc. etc. in their international sections. 

All very speculative and may unravel faster than a cheap suit but they're the plans!


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## Welfarite (1 Oct 2007)

You should be aware of a few things:

1. If you voluntarily give up work, you can be disqualified from getting JB for up to nine weeks. 
2. You must be lookijng for work here to get JB...saying that you're emigrating in a few weeks will not work.
3. Transferring your Irish benefit (13 weeks) is notoriously slow in my opinion and not always paid immediately on arrival in another EU country, even when you have all the necessary forms with you. Be prepared for that.


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## murphaph (1 Oct 2007)

Thanks welfarite. How do people actually collect their JB? Do they have to show up every week/month? Would it be possible to sign on here and never get it transfered? (ie, just get ot from the bank and return home every 2 months on acheap flight to go to the dole office and tell them I've had no luck getting a job etc.)

When you say that you have seen 'delays' in the other country paying out, what sort of delays are we talking about and I presume you get back pay for the time you were waiting for them to process the transfered payment?

How do they know you're looking for a job? I presume you have to go for the od interview but don't have to take anything for the 4 weeks before initiating the transfer to Germany?

What/Who determines the 13 week cutoff? Is it done by the germans or the irish? Do they give you a warning to return home or just say "sorry, you're not getting anything from now on"?

Sorry for all the basic questions-I've never so much as claimed a penny from the state so I'm not familiar with these sorts of things.


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## Bronte (2 Oct 2007)

As previously stated it's best if your employer let's you go.  It is a very slow process, make sure you have all the correct paperwork before you leave Ireland.  These documents as far as I know have to come from Dublin, your local social welfare office may not know all the rules.  I know they publish a book about going abroad and transferring benefits so that might be a good place to start.  Also in Germany you might need someone who speaks German to go with you.


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## murphaph (5 Oct 2007)

Thanks Bronte. Unfortunately I'm not prepared to be sacked/let go to get JB immediately as my employer has been good to me in fairness and they are a german company who I would like to return to work for in future when I get my language skills to fluency. I will just have to hang on in work and save a bit more cash to support myself before resigning. 

Does anyone have any info on what the process is for collecting benefit?

Hypothetically speaking.....

I quit, sign on and head over to germany on my savings, waiting the disqualification period out and returning as soon as allowed to receive benefit. I then start claiming benefit and head back to Germany, drawing my benefit from the bank. How often do I need to appear in the welfare office here in Dublin to keep getting benefit? I would be looking for work (even menial stuff unrelated to my qualifications etc.) in germany of course and if I got one I would sign off immediately. 

Someone told me I'd have to appear once a month. Is that right? 

Cheers for your interest so far folks.


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## dontaskme (8 Oct 2007)

murphaph said:


> Thanks Bronte. Unfortunately I'm not prepared to be sacked/let go to get JB immediately as my employer has been good to me in fairness and they are a german company who I would like to return to work for in future when I get my language skills to fluency. I will just have to hang on in work and save a bit more cash to support myself before resigning.
> 
> Does anyone have any info on what the process is for collecting benefit?
> 
> ...


 
The above (signing in one country, living in another) is known as welfare tourism, is probably illegal and could cause you plenty of grief if caught.

Even if you quit your job yourself, get down to the Social Welfare Office straight away, tell them you're looking for a new job, you had to quit the last one because of high stress levels, perhaps insinuating bullying or something, once your claim is approved ask about transferring it to Germany and request the form 303.

The form 303 has all the details in English, German and other European languages.

Once your 13 weeks are up in Germany you can try to stay on and see what happens. The Germans are unlikely to throw you out as you are an EU citizen. You could apply for sozialgeld which is the bare miminum - 350 euro a month.

I have transferred UB myself in the past and never had any major problems. Things to note are that the payment is at the end of the month in Germany, unlike Ireland where it is the end of the week.

You will need a bank account in Germany and the payment is made by bank transfer.

If there is any delay getting your payment, get onto the Irish Dept. of Social Welfare - it is they who are making the payment to the Germans to pay to you. It is probably advisable to talk to someone at the Dept and take their phone number to Germany with you in case there are any problems.

You should also bring over an emergency health insurance card.


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## murphaph (9 Oct 2007)

dontaskme said:


> The above (signing in one country, living in another) is known as welfare tourism, is probably illegal and could cause you plenty of grief if caught.


Yeah I hadn't really thought of it in those terms but I accept if it's illegal it's not the way to go. I couldn't find anything specifically prohibiting this activity on the citizen's information website. If anyone knows the legislation I'd be grateful for clarification.



dontaskme said:


> Even if you quit your job yourself, get down to the Social Welfare Office straight away, tell them you're looking for a new job, you had to quit the last one because of high stress levels, perhaps insinuating bullying or something, once your claim is approved ask about transferring it to Germany and request the form 303.
> 
> The form 303 has all the details in English, German and other European languages.
> 
> Once your 13 weeks are up in Germany you can try to stay on and see what happens. The Germans are unlikely to throw you out as you are an EU citizen. You could apply for sozialgeld which is the bare miminum - 350 euro a month.


I don't like the idea of claiming money from the Germans to be honest as I've never paid tax there and they don't owe me a thing. I've paid (IMO!) more than enough tax here however and never got a penny back in 'benefits' or suchlike. If needs must and I haven't found work I'll have to claim sozialgeld but would much rather claim irish money that I've contributed to.



dontaskme said:


> I have transferred UB myself in the past and never had any major problems. Things to note are that the payment is at the end of the month in Germany, unlike Ireland where it is the end of the week.
> 
> You will need a bank account in Germany and the payment is made by bank transfer.
> 
> ...


Thanks, I've got an EHIC but I believe I must obtain health insurance in Germany before I can register or certainly enroll at a language school. 

Have you transfered UB to another EU state and had it paid for longer than 13 weeks by any chance? I'm trying to get a 'feel' for how clinical the cutoff is and who instigates it-the irish side or the germans, any ideas on that?


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## dontaskme (9 Oct 2007)

murphaph said:


> Have you transfered UB to another EU state and had it paid for longer than 13 weeks by any chance? I'm trying to get a 'feel' for how clinical the cutoff is and who instigates it-the irish side or the germans, any ideas on that?


 
There is an expiry date on the form that you get, I'd imagine both Irish and German authorities are aware of the cut-off. I'd suggest calling the department and talking to them to find out if there are any exceptions.


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## Bronte (10 Oct 2007)

There is a cut off date and they don't go over it.  Bring the European Medical Card (formerly the E111) with you, you get it I believe from the health board and it lasts about a year.


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## murphaph (10 Oct 2007)

Thanks guys. I've already got my EHIC but I believe it os compulsory to obtain health insurance to register in Germany and you need to register to be able to get utilities and even to attend private language courses so I need to save enough to get VHI Global before I go. 

It's looking more and more like I'll be delayed here while I save up enough dosh to live for a year over there. Oh well, needs must.


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## dontaskme (10 Oct 2007)

murphaph said:


> Thanks guys. I've already got my EHIC but I believe it os compulsory to obtain health insurance to register in Germany and you need to register to be able to get utilities and even to attend private language courses so I need to save enough to get VHI Global before I go.
> 
> It's looking more and more like I'll be delayed here while I save up enough dosh to live for a year over there. Oh well, needs must.


 
I think you register first with a health insurer and show them the ehic. There is no up-front cost as far as I know and the system is monthly payments like everything else in Germany so you wont get hit with a huge bill straight away. 

Private language classes are probably expensive, you could consider the Volkhochsschule which most cities have.

And if you make the effort you might get a few hours teaching English to keep you ticking over. 

Why Germany anyway? If you just want to go somewhere to draw the dole for a year why not go somewhere with a mild winter and better food? :lol:

If you really want to work you would probably be able to grit your teeth and find something within three months. And if you ask your present employer for a year long leave of absence they might oblige.

If you work in IT, German skills are probably secondary to technical ability.

Well, short of going to meet you at the airport I dont think I can be any more helpful, you just have to make the choices yourself.


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