# Wolf Tone's view on Conor Skehan's article on homelessness



## WolfeTone (12 Dec 2019)

__





						Conor Skehan :'Nothing but the facts will do when tackling homelessness'
					

A great article, well worth reading in full     The facts are that, in terms of comparisons on the broad canvas of housing, Ireland now fares well in the context of Europe; having the fourth lowest level of overcrowding; the fifth lowest housing overburden rate and Europe's lowest levels of...



					askaboutmoney.com
				






Brendan Burgess said:


> A great article, well worth reading in full



With respect, it is an awful article. I suspect we have been down this road before, so I will keep this post to bullet points and avoid any further interaction.

- Homelessness is an issue by itself, _increasing levels _of homelessness is another issue, and one that the article has completely missed

- Having security of tenure is fundamental to the progression of civilised societies. Not having security of tenure is regressive.

- as has been mentioned before elsewhere, the levels of homelessness have been increasing, not just in Dublin, but in London, Paris, New York, San Francisco, Toronto, Athens, Rome, Berlin...lauding our 'fourth' or 'fifth' lowest position on the European average is ludicrous, and shows a complete ineptness to understand the complexities of the issue

- Im not sure what the author is inferring when he writes about the bigger issue of 'arrears', he is hardly advocating more homelessness?
So I guess im dumb on his meaning on that point.

- the immediate consequence of homelessness is not having a roof over your head, or not having a secure residence to live and function routinely as individuals, couples or families do on long-term basis (ie - hotel rooms or hostels are not homes).
The long-term consequences, particularly with young children involved, are not certain. But I would hazard a guess that the probability that those consequences are not favourable increases dramatically.

- Homelessness, and increasing levels at that, cannot be separated from the rest of societal issues. It is part of a melting pot of other issues, increases in drug addiction, gang-warfare, unemployment, poor education, waiting lists in hospitals, hygiene, etc.
When all these issues keep adding up, keep increasing, it will instigate a reaction - of some sort, or sorts. This is human nature.
Trump, Brexit, Yellow Vests, Ghetto riots in Paris before that, Arab Spring, or whatever - in Ireland, the people marched against Irish Water. Not because of some profound devotion to a public water system, but because incrementally a large body of ordinary working people had felt they had been pushed too far by austerity. Since then we have had 'new politics' where the main opposition supports the government in power.

- Homelessness only affects a tiny portion of the population directly, but it affects the entire population indirectly. Be it businesses, communities, be it through tax increases, or increased borrowing, be it social disorder, a rise in xenophobia, racism, extreme nationalism....ALL of it is interlinked.

- And when some, or ALL of these issues are _increasing _then the last thing that is needed is inane commentary that touts our standing above or below European averages

- If people cannot see the connect between all these issues, and continue to box them off into different separate compartments, then we are heading for a rude awakening one day.

Finally, I don't purport to have answers, although building more houses and apartments seems reasonable.


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## Purple (12 Dec 2019)

I agree with most of that Wolfie but the point of the article is that, relative to other countries, we are handling this quite well; the Minister and the Government are doing quite a good job. That's all.

We are building more houses and will increase that output. We are not building the Ballymun's of tomorrow. We are doing all we can to increase supply. No matter how  much money the Government throw at the problem we don't have the people to build the houses. During the boom we had a massive new supply of  highly skilled labour in the form of the new Eastern European EU States which weren't allowed into most of the rest of the EU. That supply is just not there now.  This will take time and money. The populists ignore the time element.


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## WolfeTone (12 Dec 2019)

Bronte said:


> All the landlords threatened with this latest law should up their rents. I know I wish I had. But I naively didn't want to do it to my tenants



You effectively imposed a rent freeze on yourself then? So any prospect of a government imposed rent freeze on the conscientious landlords like yourself who wish not to raise rents on their tenants, is no threat at all.


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## WolfeTone (12 Dec 2019)

Moderator said:


> This is such a considered piece that it deserves to be highlighted and not lost in the following thread:


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## galway_blow_in (12 Dec 2019)

The media exagetate the urgency of the situation here, skeehan illustrates how homelessness is an international reality and how relative to most nations, the numbers here are low 

The homelessness issue has been utterly politicised at this stage, it's also an industry in itself


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## The Horseman (12 Dec 2019)

WolfeTone said:


> This is such a considered piece that it deserves to be highlighted and not lost in the following thread:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Having security of tenure is important yes but people want this security in certain places. I don't have an issue with security of tenure but if there is a property on offer then take it. Once it is not damp mould etc. Those who work in an area should be given priority over those who don't work in the area on the allocation of property. 

The whole idea of lenght on the housing list as the determinant of allocation of property should be reviewed. Why should somebody who goes on the housing list at the age of 18 be entitled to a house in their late twenties early thirties just because they are on the list 10 years. 

The majority of the societal issues you mention above do not stem from homelessness. Gang warfare is not down to homelessness it is down to people seeing gang members living a life they would never afford through legitimate means. Unemployment and education opportunities are increasingly available to help people better themselves. I lived in the very type of area the above alludes to and I have seen the best of supports going into the area. It was a state of the art playground, all weather football pitch modernised changing rooms etc. 

Within a week of all of this going in it was all destroyed. This is a cultural issue which we are not willing to address. These are teenagers under the age of 16 who when arrested by the Gardai and brought to their parents end up going to court and getting a slap on the wrist. Going to court is seen as a badge of honour. 

We do need change of that there is no doubt but all sides need to be involved in this change, some people can't  be helped and should be held accountable for their actions, it is the actions of a minority of people that are ruining it for the majority. 

Yes homelessness is impacting on society but all societies woes does not eminate from homelessness. 

We need to culturally change before we can be compared to other countries. Other countries are culturally different where respect is earned by all concerned and not just given.


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## WolfeTone (12 Dec 2019)

galway_blow_in said:


> The media exagetate the urgency of the situation



With respect, it is an urgent issue for many caught up in emergency accommodation. Particularly those with young children.



galway_blow_in said:


> The homelessness issue has been utterly politicised at this stage, it's also an industry in itself



It is a political issue. All parties across the board want to end this crisis. Its the manner, and policies applied that is for debate.

I do accept opposition accusations of the government having 9yrs in power to fix the issue are politically opportunistic. Realistically, it is about half that time, and I accept it is an issue that takes time to effectively resolve. So im not under any illusions that opposition parties, had they been in power, would have done anything differently. 

That said, I do take exception to the commentary that seeks to induce a normalisation of the issue. Referencing other European or American countries and States, a sort of...see, look over there, they have the same problem, only worse. 

The housing and homelessness crisis have been brought about by an economic policy that applied a free market approach to housing and with government and local authorities moving out of the sector. 
It has failed, here and elsewhere. There hasn't been a functioning stable housing market in this country for nearly two decades.


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## galway_blow_in (12 Dec 2019)

WolfeTone said:


> With respect, it is an urgent issue for many caught up in emergency accommodation. Particularly those with young children.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Very large inflow of people from outside the country since 2011 has not been matched by increased house building.

A huge minority of homeless are foreign

When one of the key contributors to a crisis is taboo for discussion, it's difficult to deal with the problem

The media have gagged open debate so the issue becomes even more agenda driven


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## Purple (12 Dec 2019)

WolfeTone said:


> The housing and homelessness crisis have been brought about by an economic policy that applied a free market approach to housing and with government and local authorities moving out of the sector.
> It has failed, here and elsewhere. There hasn't been a functioning stable housing market in this country for nearly two decades.


The homelessness issue, as well as many other issues such as the move to the far left and right in many developed countries is part of a larger global issue which is the fundamental nature of wealth creation has changed and our taxation systems have not changed with them. Free Market Capitalism is, by far, the most just and fair and democratic economic system we have ever had. It works. It is also an artificial construct and needs political oversight to be maintained. It is the source of the wealth that governments take in taxes and distribute in order to create and maintain the societies we live in. When the wealth created is split about 50:50 between capital and labour everything is fine. When it shifts too much to labour economies collapse. When it shifts too much to capital societies collapse. At the moment the shift it towards capital. It is a fundamental global issue and homelessness is just one of many of the problems it is causing. The last time this happened was between 1850 and 1910. The result was two revolutions, two World Wars and a billion dead people. It would be nice if we could avoid that this time. 

We need to stop asking the wrong questions.


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## Purple (12 Dec 2019)

galway_blow_in said:


> Very large inflow of people from outside the country since 2011 has not been matched by increased house building.
> 
> A huge minority of homeless are foreign
> 
> ...


We've had a net inflow of about 20,000 a year for the last 5 years. That's hardly a very large inflow. 
Over the previous 5 years we had a net outflow of a slightly smaller amount.


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## jpd (12 Dec 2019)

20,000 a year for 5 years is 100,000 or around 30,000 housing units required - we built less than that by a long way and we have an increasing indigenous population plus housing units falling into dis-use/abandoned

It doesn't matter who builds them - but obviously not in my back yard


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## Purple (12 Dec 2019)

jpd said:


> 20,000 a year for 5 years is 100,000 or around 30,000 housing units required - we built less than that by a long way


I don't think they'll need a house each...
The net figure over the last ten years is about 2500 a year.


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## jpd (12 Dec 2019)

Average occupancy in Ireland is around 3/unit see here https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-cp4hf/cp4hf/hhlds/


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## Purple (12 Dec 2019)

According to the ERSI there are 253,000 social housing units in Ireland. There are 1700 homeless families. If we improved the allocation of the existing stock (move people around) by 00.7% then we'd have no homeless families.


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## Purple (12 Dec 2019)

jpd said:


> Average occupancy in Ireland is around 3/unit see here https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-cp4hf/cp4hf/hhlds/


One in Four new jobs in the high-tech sector are taken by immigrants as Irish people don't have the required skills. Immigrants are a massive positive for our economy. That is unarguable (assuming your argument is based on logic and facts). They are also, in my opinion, a massive positive for our society.


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## JohnJay (12 Dec 2019)

We have a homeless problem. 
But we have a bigger problem with addiction. If we dont tackle this and provide the required wrap around services to support them when they do find a home, then we are heading in to a bigger problem.
We have one of the highest welfare rates in Europe, but still we have people who cant afford to feed themselves or their families. Just finding a flat for them is not all the help they need.


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## Delboy (12 Dec 2019)

I have said it before but will repeat again.

A small country like Ireland which has just 1 major economic hub (Dublin) and which has an open border with 500 million people and also generous visa schemes with non-EU countries will be in a continuous housing crisis. We'll have a housing shortage and 'homelessness' whenever Dublin is going well. And when we're in a downturn and the population dips a bit, we'll experience mortgage arrears crisis, landlords going bust, housing oversupply , banks taking a hammering and unemployment amongst those in the building trade.

That is how it's going to be and will not change.


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## JohnJay (12 Dec 2019)

Galway has a homeless problem, https://www.rte.ie/news/connacht/2019/0630/1059299-cope-galway-homelessness/
Cork has a homeless problem. https://www.echolive.ie/corknews/Th...ation-6065d729-6a8c-4539-8e75-db73e7e7bcee-ds

Dublin had a homeless problem long before "immigrants" started to come here, even during our recessions.
When 1000's of Irish people emigrated to London in the 1980's it didn't shove 1000's of Brits out on to the streets.


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## Brendan Burgess (13 Dec 2019)

WolfeTone said:


> - Homelessness is an issue by itself, _increasing levels _of homelessness is another issue, and one that the article has completely missed



So which would you prefer? 

50,000 homeless and stable or 10,000 homeless and rising? 

Brendan


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## Brendan Burgess (13 Dec 2019)

WolfeTone said:


> - Having security of tenure is fundamental to the progression of civilised societies. Not having security of tenure is regressive.





The Horseman said:


> Having security of tenure is important yes but people want this security in certain places. I don't have an issue with security of tenure but if there is a property on offer then take it. Once it is not damp mould etc. Those who work in an area should be given priority over those who don't work in the area on the allocation of property.



And this is the problem. 

Most of the people I know who bought their own home had to buy well outside the areas where they grew up and where they worked. They had to make compromises which often involved very long commutes and not seeing their young children. 

But if you apply for social housing, you demand it "in your own community" and turn down house offers until you get one you like.

People who buy their own home don't have this choice. 

Our current policy encourages people to declare themselves homeless so that they get the Lotto win of a home for life.

And it encourages single women to have children because single women with children who are homeless go to the top of the list. 

If we offered people who were not working housing _wherever _in the country it was available, their would be far less homelessness. 

Many of them would go and live with their mother who is often living on her own in a three bed social house and is never asked to contribute to solving the housing problem. 

And we could build three social houses outside Dublin for every house we build in Dublin. 

Brendan


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## WolfeTone (13 Dec 2019)

Brendan Burgess said:


> So which would you prefer?
> 
> 50,000 homeless and stable or 10,000 homeless and rising?



But we dont have 50,000 homeless?? 
One is a hypothetical figure which has no basis in reality. The other is a real and factual figure with real consequences.
To answer your question, the hypothetical figure any day. 

Or alternatively, 10,000 homeless and stable, or 10,000 homeless and rising?


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## Purple (13 Dec 2019)

Brendan Burgess said:


> And it encourages single women to have children because single women with children who are homeless go to the top of the list.


It encourages unmarried stable couples in long term relationships to claim that the mother is a lone parent so that she can get housing support. That can mean a council house or, even better, the father buys the house and the mother rents it from him and HAP's pays their mortgage.


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## WolfeTone (13 Dec 2019)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Most of the people I know who bought their own home had to buy well outside the areas where they grew up and where they worked. They had to make compromises which often involved very long commutes and not seeing their young children.



I dont doubt the sentiment here. Im the first to say that working people have been fed a pup in the property boom of the Celtic Tiger. 
But people who apply for social housing are also working people. Simply their incomes fall below thresholds set by government which entitles them apply should they wish - its not their fault. Nor is it the fault of higher earning workers who are being screwed on rents and left with little option to buy miles away. 
It is the policies that drive the system to work the way that it does. And I have seen little that will change that anyday soon.


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## Brendan Burgess (13 Dec 2019)

WolfeTone said:


> - Homelessness is an issue by itself, _increasing levels _of homelessness is another issue, and one that the article has completely missed



Hi Wolfie

But you have said that increasing levels of homelessness is an issue.

It's not if it's coming from such a low base as we have in Ireland. 

There are much higher homelessness rates in other countries but they are not rising. 

So I am asking you again

Which would you prefer a low level of homelessness but increasing or a high level of homelessness but steady? 

Brendan


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## Purple (13 Dec 2019)

WolfeTone said:


> But people who apply for social housing are also working people.


Some are, some aren't.


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## WolfeTone (13 Dec 2019)

Purple said:


> Some are, some aren't.



Of course, but in the main, most social housing is occupied by at least one working person. 
Other houses are occupied by pensioners, people with disabilities, etc. 

Regardless of who you are, what you do, everyone needs a roof over their head.


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## Purple (13 Dec 2019)

WolfeTone said:


> Regardless of who you are, what you do, everyone needs a roof over their head.


Yep, and those who can provide their own should have to do so. Those who can but choose not to should be left on the streets. I would, literally, let them starve or die of exposure rather than see them get a cent that should go to those who cannot provide for themselves.


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## Purple (13 Dec 2019)

WolfeTone said:


> Of course, but in the main, most social housing is occupied by at least one working person.


Yep, and if we could improve the utilisation of our existing housing stock just a little bit we'd have no homelessness. We have enough social housing, we just don't utilise it for the greatest social good.


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## Peanuts20 (13 Dec 2019)

Child care and its cost is a big impact on people


WolfeTone said:


> But we dont have 50,000 homeless??
> One is a hypothetical figure which has no basis in reality. The other is a real and factual figure with real consequences.
> To answer your question, the hypothetical figure any day.
> 
> Or alternatively, 10,000 homeless and stable, or 10,000 homeless and rising?



In addition to the 10.5k, we should also factor in the numbers in womens refuges. In 2015 Tusla reported that almost 6k women and children could not be accomodated in these refuges but have not released figures since then. I think we can safely assume the true figure of people who have lost their home and have nowhere to live or have had to leave home for their own safety is in and around the 15k mark at a minimum.

Secondly, and in terms of the "why don't they move to somewhere cheaper like Leitrim" argument, one of the factors that people often overlook is the family network. Tens of thousands of families depend on inlaws/grandparents to mind kids whilst they work. Move far away and that often free network disappears and suddenly the cost of living goes up significantly. Not to mention that there may be limited job opps in those areas. And yes, I know someone will say that "they shouldn't have kids if they cant afford them" but peoples circumstances change and we should be glad people are having kids, it drives economic growth and how else will our health and pension costs get paid when we are all older?.

The arguement around single mothers is utterly pathetic and frankly back in the dark ages. There are 216k single parent families in Ireland, the vast majority headed up by a seperated or widowed parent. Over 60% of lone parents actually work. Again I wait for the comment "well I know someone who got pregnant to get a flat". Seriously, do you really know what the story was?? Did she tell you. ? Maybe there are some but to think that thousands of women behaved like that is seriously ignorant.  I wonder how the 12% of single parent families headed by a man managed to "get a flat".


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## Brendan Burgess (13 Dec 2019)

Peanuts20 said:


> Secondly, and in terms of the "why don't they move to somewhere cheaper like Leitrim" argument, one of the factors that people often overlook is the family network.



Hi Peanuts 

And do you think that people who buy their own homes don't have family networks? 

Brendan


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## WolfeTone (13 Dec 2019)

Brendan Burgess said:


> But you have said that increasing levels of homelessness is an issue.
> 
> It's not if it's coming from such a low base as we have in Ireland.



It is an issue, im perplexed that you would think it is not an issue. 
Increasing levels of homelessness is an indicator that as a society, we are unable to deal effectively with the issue. 



Brendan Burgess said:


> Which would you prefer a low level of homelessness but increasing or a high level of homelessness but steady?



Low level but increasing.


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## WolfeTone (13 Dec 2019)

Purple said:


> Yep, and if we could improve the utilisation of our existing housing stock just a little bit we'd have no homelessness. We have enough social housing, we just don't utilise it for the greatest social good.



Absolutely. Unfortunately, the manner in which utilisation can be improved has no real consensus, and adds to the problem.
But that said, it is a complex issue to resolve.


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## Peanuts20 (13 Dec 2019)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Hi Peanuts
> 
> And do you think that people who buy their own homes don't have family networks?
> 
> Brendan


Of course not. How on earth did you draw that conclusion?


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## Brendan Burgess (13 Dec 2019)

Because of this comment: 



Peanuts20 said:


> Secondly, and in terms of the "why don't they move to somewhere cheaper like Leitrim" argument, one of the factors that people often overlook is the family network.



No one seems to have any problem with people who buy their own home commuting long distances, but if someone who wants social housing is offered it away from their own community, they say that they don't want to move away from their family network.

If they are not working, they can move to Leitrim and build up networks there.  And they can visit their family in Dublin and vice versa.

It's about time people who buy their own homes, who work and who pay taxes get priority.

Brendan


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## WolfeTone (13 Dec 2019)

Brendan Burgess said:


> It's about time people who buy their own homes, who work and who pay taxes get priority.




If they already have their own homes Brendan, they are not really part of the issue.


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## Purple (14 Dec 2019)

Peanuts20 said:


> The arguement around single mothers is utterly pathetic and frankly back in the dark ages. There are 216k single parent families in Ireland, the vast majority headed up by a seperated or widowed parent. Over 60% of lone parents actually work. Again I wait for the comment "well I know someone who got pregnant to get a flat". Seriously, do you really know what the story was?? Did she tell you. ? Maybe there are some but to think that thousands of women behaved like that is seriously ignorant. I wonder how the 12% of single parent families headed by a man managed to "get a flat".


As a single parent I can tell you that the Fathers don’t get a flat or at least they are at the bottom of the list.
I agree that women are not having children to “get a flat” but a sizeable proportion of people are gaming the system to get houses. There are loads of stable families where the parents are not married where the mother claims to be a lone parent to get a house. I’ve already outlined the scam where the father buys a house and the mother rents it from him with the State picking up the tab.


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## Fella (14 Dec 2019)

I have been told that there are some people supposedly homeless that have fabricated the situation .They stop renting with partner , move back home to parents house , go to local TD or whoever will listen , say they are homeless and a lone parent . 
They then get a hotel which they never even sleep in just because if your in a hotel your likely to move quicker to a "forever home" then get forever home and partner moves in , happy life . 
Now this is one story from a guy I know who told me the step by step process the worst part he said was moving back to his parents for a few months while they waited for a house.  They got a 4 bed house is swords fully kitted out , the finish was lower than the houses that where not social houses but still it is a house that would be well out of reach of anyone on less than a substantial wage.
Now this is one case I know of , he told me they are all doing it in xxxxxxxxx I won't name the area to degrade it but it's a less desirable area he said government are throwing houses at people .

I forgot about this it's annoying but so be it , met a friend a few weeks ago who does maintenance in a hotel and I asked him are there many homeless living there , he confirmed exactly what the guy I know said , rooms are empty majority of time , I would love some stats on how many of hotel rooms are actually used .

Before people say , but but but .... Why don't you report the guy to social welfare etc , it's not my job to police the system I've a busy life but to any sane person it's clear to see what's going on with housing , it's a farce and we will look back at the money that was wasted housing wasters and there will be a realisation that the government where played for fools by media and vested interests.


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## gianni (14 Dec 2019)

Fella said:


> Before people say , but but but .... Why don't you report the guy to social welfare etc , it's not my job to police the system I've a busy life but to any sane person it's clear to see what's going on with housing , it's a farce and we will look back at the money that was wasted housing wasters and there will be a realisation that the government where played for fools by media and vested interests.



If you are correct in your assertion of fraud, it would take you less time than it took you to write your post to report it:






						Report Fraud
					






					www.welfare.ie
				




I don't agree with your attitude that it's not "your job" to do so.


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## Dermot (14 Dec 2019)

Well I reported multiple abuses and to be honest I was better off I investigated it myself as it would nearly have taken less time.   I compiled a detailed dossier in each case and they were factual and nothing done even though there was flagrant abuse of the system.  Thats my experience. Never again


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## Fella (14 Dec 2019)

gianni said:


> If you are correct in your assertion of fraud, it would take you less time than it took you to write your post to report it:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Part of the reason I don't report is my brother has a neighbor whose partner is not supposed to be living there and the partner jumps over his wall (not welcomed) to access the house from rear .
He has been on to social welfare who call unannounced but they keep telling him it's very hard to prove he living there , he has been plagued by these neighbours on some sort of HAP for years nightmare couples with kids who have zero respect for neighbours or upkeep of house , parties all hours and nothing is been done


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## valery (14 Dec 2019)

Last year 
21% of newly presenting homeless families in Dublin were non EU citizens
12% were from EU countries
67% were Irish born.

In the 2016 census, 12% of the population were recorded as being born outside Ireland.


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## Delboy (14 Dec 2019)

Fella said:


> Now this is one case I know of , he told me they are all doing it in xxxxxxxxx I won't name the area to degrade it but it's a less desirable area he said government are throwing houses at people .


Well that fits with the situation out there with regards to HAP...the Govt are giving people as much money as it takes to get the rental property and not present as homeless, Common sense, good governance and value for money have gone out the window


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## NoRegretsCoyote (15 Dec 2019)

valery said:


> Last year
> 21% of newly presenting homeless families in Dublin were non EU citizens
> 12% were from EU countries
> 67% were Irish born.
> ...



The more relevant comparison is the foreign-born population of *Dublin*.


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## WolfeTone (15 Dec 2019)

Purple said:


> a sizeable proportion of people are gaming the system to get houses. There are loads of stable families where the parents are not married where the mother claims to be a lone parent to get a house.



Can you back this up? 
I would hazard a guess that yes, it occurs, but is so infrequent relative to actual homelessness, and unaffordable housing issues, that even if it not to occur, it would barely register a difference in the round. 
That is not to ignore it, but rather to acknowledge in terms of implementing effectively actions and policies, it would be way down the list of priorities.


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## Delboy (15 Dec 2019)

Talking to an Estate Agent today who was telling me that he has started to take on way more HAP tenants than usual in his letting business as they can get the rent, no matter the price. And they are allowed to top up now as well. But it's really distorting the market, not that she's upset! 

A few of her HAP tenancies have even gone ahead and done home improvements to what were practically new apartments/houses even though the lease says you can't do that. But as the improvements are actually an addition to the home, they've let them away with it. One tenant put in new flooring, upstairs and down! On other put in new kitchen cabinets. 
i suppose when the taxpayer is picking up the tab for your biggest expense, you've a fair bit of disposal cash yourself!

One other nugget they had for me was with regards to Cuckoo/Investment funds buying gaffs for rental. She sold one recently to such a fund in a rent zone and the house had previously being rented so the rent increase restrictions applied. Or so she thought.
The agent for the fund explained that they would buy the gaff and rent it to a local Authority for say, 10 years. that meant it didn't come under rent zone rules i.e. they could increase the rent by way more than 4% and there was no need to register with the PRTB.
The Local Authorities are actually harrassing funds to go out and buy more homes so they can then come in and rent them on long term deals. It's mad stuff. I don't know how any ordinary working single/couple can compete in that market when they are so clearly up against the Government, Local Authorities and International Investment Funds. I'd hate to be looking to buy or rent. And it's not going to get any better


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## Purple (16 Dec 2019)

Dermot said:


> Well I reported multiple abuses and to be honest I was better off I investigated it myself as it would nearly have taken less time.   I compiled a detailed dossier in each case and they were factual and nothing done even though there was flagrant abuse of the system.  Thats my experience. Never again


I've reported fraud a few times and nothing has been done. I think that DSP officials are, right;y, frightened of getting on the wrong side of the populist media and the far left populist politicians.


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## Purple (16 Dec 2019)

WolfeTone said:


> Can you back this up?
> I would hazard a guess that yes, it occurs, but is so infrequent relative to actual homelessness, and unaffordable housing issues, that even if it not to occur, it would barely register a difference in the round.
> That is not to ignore it, but rather to acknowledge in terms of implementing effectively actions and policies, it would be way down the list of priorities.


I'm personally aware of 6 cases over the last 4 years. I work with people who tell me about their brothers/sisters/cousins doing the same thing. I have no data on it, obviously as there is none, but speaking about 2 particular areas of North Dublin I would say it is the norm when financially viable for the father to buy a house and rent it to the mother.
One guy I work with has two young children and he and his partner and the children live with his partners mother in her 3 bedroom council house. He was laughed at and called a gob-daw (daw wasn't the second bit) in the canteen for not claiming to be homeless when he said that he wanted to buy his own house. The reaction was "What?! Why would you do that, you idiot!" (they didn't say idiot).


----------



## WolfeTone (16 Dec 2019)

Fella said:


> They stop renting with partner , move back home to parents house , go to local TD or whoever will listen , say they are homeless and a lone parent .



People who have a roof over their heads are not afforded hotel emergency accommodation. 
In the main, it is families with children, quite often single parents. 
In general, people afforded this emergency accommodation cannot access rooms until late evening and need to vacate by early morning. It is not a situation that anybody with any sort of reasoned mentality would desire to deliberately put themselves, and their children, through, on some baked up notion that it is a gateway to a 'forever' home.


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## Sunny (16 Dec 2019)

Purple said:


> I'm personally aware of 6 cases over the last 4 years. I work with people who tell me about their brothers/sisters/cousins doing the same thing. I have no data on it, obviously as there is none, but speaking about 2 particular areas of North Dublin I would say it is the norm when financially viable for the father to buy a house and rent it to the mother.
> One guy I work with has two young children and he and his partner and the children live with his partners mother in her 3 bedroom council house. He was laughed at and called a gob-daw (daw wasn't the second bit) in the canteen for not claiming to be homeless when he said that he wanted to buy his own house. The reaction was "What?! Why would you do that, you idiot!" (they didn't say idiot).



A friend of mine spent 6 years in a two bed apartment with three kids saving for a deposit for a house they wanted in an area they wanted. (Ironically North Dublin as well). Eventually got the house in a new estate for over 500k. Within a couple of days, a family moved next door with the neighbour proudly saying that they are delighted with their new house because the council had them (three kids also) in three bed up to now. Neither adult in the house works. My friend and his wife gets up every morning and goes into work to pay the mortgage. They made sacrifices for 6 years of their childrens lives to be able to afford a house that they see being given to someone else. And what is the difference between two families? Now, people will just say this is just a story and it doesn't happen and people are entitled to a house and all the rest. I don't know one person who agrees with homelessness. I don't know one person that doesn't think the State should take steps to ensure there is affordable housing for EVERYBODY but we are living in la la land if we think it is sustainable that State finances are being used to buy €500k houses to give to social housing and expect working families who have worked their asses off to get the same thing to just accept it. 

But apparently my friend can't give out because you are not allowed to criticise social housing because if you do, you are some right wing Nazi nut....


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## Purple (16 Dec 2019)

Sunny said:


> But apparently my friend can't give out because you are not allowed to criticise social housing because if you do, you are some right wing Nazi nut....


...what that means is that people get disillusioned and that's fertile ground for the nutters and and rightwing fringe. 
I've said it before; the Public Sector are the guardians of democracy. 
It is how they are seen to be delivering services for the people, using the people's money, that determines the legitimacy of the State  in the eyes of the people. 
When the Public Sector wastes the people's money they are not only causing old people to die on trolleys and children with special needs to never reach their potential but they are undermining democracy itself.


----------



## Andrew365 (16 Dec 2019)

Sunny said:


> A friend of mine spent 6 years in a two bed apartment with three kids saving for a deposit for a house they wanted in an area they wanted. (Ironically North Dublin as well). Eventually got the house in a new estate for over 500k. Within a couple of days, a family moved next door with the neighbour proudly saying that they are delighted with their new house because the council had them (three kids also) in three bed up to now. Neither adult in the house works. My friend and his wife gets up every morning and goes into work to pay the mortgage. They made sacrifices for 6 years of their childrens lives to be able to afford a house that they see being given to someone else. And what is the difference between two families? Now, people will just say this is just a story and it doesn't happen and people are entitled to a house and all the rest. I don't know one person who agrees with homelessness. I don't know one person that doesn't think the State should take steps to ensure there is affordable housing for EVERYBODY but we are living in la la land if we think it is sustainable that State finances are being used to buy €500k houses to give to social housing and expect working families who have worked their asses off to get the same thing to just accept it.
> 
> But apparently my friend can't give out because you are not allowed to criticise social housing because if you do, you are some right wing Nazi nut....



Did they know when they were purchasing if houses in the development are council owned? 

I would be equally miffed but this is a tricky one.


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## Sunny (16 Dec 2019)

Andrew365 said:


> Did they know when they were purchasing if houses in the development are council owned?
> 
> I would be equally miffed but this is a tricky one.




No matter where you buy now, you know this will probably be the case but they probably thought houses going for over 500k would never be bought for the purpose of social housing. Like 500k of taxpayers money to house one family?  From talking to him, he doesn't believe he was buying a house to live in a gated community but I know what himself and the wife went through to afford this place. The marriage nearly ended on more than one occasion but he convinced her that it would be worth it. She was ready to move out of Dublin and commute but he made her hang on. And then you see an identical house being given to another family..... What made one family deserve that while his family made huge sacrifices for years to get the same thing?  He just feels really let down but knows he will just have to let it go. Finding it hard though.

And I know someone is going to come on here and say everyone deserves a house and all the rest which misses the point but I have to admit, I really did share his frustration.


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## WolfeTone (16 Dec 2019)

Social Housing Assessment report 2018

_Table 2.4 Household Composition

Single person with children 22,195. _

CSO census puts the amount of one parent families in the State as 218,817.


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## WolfeTone (16 Dec 2019)

Sunny said:


> a family moved next door with the neighbour proudly saying that they are delighted with their new house because the council had them (three kids also) in three bed up to now. Neither adult in the house works



Was a reason given as to why the council, already providing a family with three children a house, decided to move them to a €500k house? 
I would think that unless there was some really valid reason (eg the other house in absolute dire condition) then this is a real waste of resources and makes no sense at all.


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## Bronte (16 Dec 2019)

Delboy said:


> The Local Authorities are actually harrassing funds to go out and buy more homes so they can then come in and rent them on long term deals. It's mad stuff.



That's my experience of the LA's too. I spoke to them in two different counties.  They also told me I could get over the 4% rule if I appealed to the RTB that my rent hadn't gone up in a long time.  

My last tenant to join HAP, he has a car business and is a landlord.  Yet he got HAP.  I don't understand how he managed to do that.  But I reckon his car repair business is undeclared as is the house.  

That house has a flat at the side. I had a LA tenant there for year, someone I know for decades. He moved out and moved into a two bed brand new appartment that the LA gave to a friend of his who had been on the waiting list for years.  And why did he move in there. The friend was heading off to South Africa for six months and needed someone to mind the place. 

It is very clear to me HAP is driving up rents.  And also clear that the councils are desparate for landlords.


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## Bronte (16 Dec 2019)

Peanuts20 said:


> Secondly, and in terms of the "why don't they move to somewhere cheaper like Leitrim" argument, one of the factors that people often overlook is the family network.



This is nonsense.  Tell that to my brother who commutted weekly to Dublin.  Tell that to me and the countless others who moved abraod, which is a heck of a lot further than Leitrim.  Tell that to my sister who did two hour commutes.  Tell that indeed to most of my family who live in different counties.  The only family I have living in Dublin, D4 as it happens, they live there because they are wealthy.  Oddly you think we should be entitled to live close to each other for family networds. But what you mean is those who get free housing get that choice. Nobody else does.


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## Fella (16 Dec 2019)

WolfeTone said:


> People who have a roof over their heads are not afforded hotel emergency accommodation.
> In the main, it is families with children, quite often single parents.
> In general, people afforded this emergency accommodation cannot access rooms until late evening and need to vacate by early morning. It is not a situation that anybody with any sort of reasoned mentality would desire to deliberately put themselves, and their children, through, on some baked up notion that it is a gateway to a 'forever' home.



Sorry but your wrong , people are taking advantage of the situation and they know the system better than anyone , they are experts . How many are actually single I just have to look around and see what's going on.
I'm not falling for it's a tiny percentage gaming the system it's huge. 
I knew a guy working in the health board who told me once one person figures out something it becomes widespread like getting a letter to say your child has allergies to get wooden flooring and leather furniture , we are a soft touch of a Nation and the social welfare bill it's collosual because everyone's offended and feels they are entitled to a high standard of living despite not earning it.
The same people give out about our health Care been a mess , if we channelled the money in proper directions we would have a much better society .


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## WolfeTone (16 Dec 2019)

Fella said:


> Sorry but your wrong



Im not. Hotel emergency accommodation is by and large provided to families with nowhere to go. 
You cant just kip out in your mums house, rock up to your TD and get given a hotel room. Then head back to mums and wait to be given a house. Dont you think the hotels are conscious of when their hotel rooms are being occupied or not? 
If you don't have kids, and are homeless you will be given a space in a hostel, if available. You could be sharing with up to 12 others, some of them with serious illness or addictions. 
If you decide to head back to mammies house, it will become apparent pretty quickly that you are not there, and your bed will be given up for someone who is genuinely homeless. You can spot these people regularly in any major city, occupying shop doors with sleeping bags. 
And once your bed is given up, and you are not registering with services for the homeless, you are struck off as being no longer homeless. In which case you wont be getting any house at all - which is a pity, because in your example, the 'experts' at taking advantage of the system had a house to begin with.


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## Fella (16 Dec 2019)

WolfeTone said:


> Im not. Hotel emergency accommodation is by and large provided to families with nowhere to go.
> You cant just kip out in your mums house, rock up to your TD and get given a hotel room. Then head back to mums and wait to be given a house. Dont you think the hotels are conscious of when their hotel rooms are being occupied or not?
> If you don't have kids, and are homeless you will be given a space in a hostel, if available. You could be sharing with up to 12 others, some of them with serious illness or addictions.
> If you decide to head back to mammies house, it will become apparent pretty quickly that you are not there, and your bed will be given up for someone who is genuinely homeless. You can spot these people regularly in any major city, occupying shop doors with sleeping bags.
> And once your bed is given up, and you are not registering with services for the homeless, you are struck off as being no longer homeless. In which case you wont be getting any house at all - which is a pity, because in your example, the 'experts' at taking advantage of the system had a house to begin with.



Where are these families coming from that are ending up in hotels ?  The guy I spoke to was living with his family renting a place , they heard of a way to get on the housing list quick which was for them to separate. He moved out , she stopped paying rent , evicted or left voluntarily I'm not sure of that , suitcases into mums house with kids , he went back to his parents house. She went to TD and social welfare and said they were homeless sleeping on floor in her mams house , they were giving a hotel room , they didn't stay in hotel but where told to show up at hotel to keep place on list to get a "forever home" they were housed not long after , single mother and kids . The partner moved straight in when they got a forever 4 bed home in Swords. They could afford the rent originally but followed a blueprint to get a free house.

Just to add I have no doubt there is a majority of genuine people out there that really do need help. I am annoyed because I am from a less desirable area originally my parents still live there , when I am there visiting or over in local pub I hear these stories and speak to people who made a living on gaming the system. I do believe the government have become wreckless in the desire to house everyone and that more and more non genuine people can see this desire and game the system . Just look at the insurance claim industry and how people jumped on that bandwagon .


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## Purple (16 Dec 2019)

WolfeTone said:


> Im not. Hotel emergency accommodation is by and large provided to families with nowhere to go.
> You cant just kip out in your mums house, rock up to your TD and get given a hotel room. Then head back to mums and wait to be given a house. Dont you think the hotels are conscious of when their hotel rooms are being occupied or not?
> If you don't have kids, and are homeless you will be given a space in a hostel, if available. You could be sharing with up to 12 others, some of them with serious illness or addictions.
> If you decide to head back to mammies house, it will become apparent pretty quickly that you are not there, and your bed will be given up for someone who is genuinely homeless. You can spot these people regularly in any major city, occupying shop doors with sleeping bags.
> And once your bed is given up, and you are not registering with services for the homeless, you are struck off as being no longer homeless. In which case you wont be getting any house at all - which is a pity, because in your example, the 'experts' at taking advantage of the system had a house to begin with.


You counter a post about families gaming the system by talking about homeless individuals...


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## Firefly (16 Dec 2019)

Homelessness is a very hot political issue and will probably factor in the results in the next election. As such the government is doing all it can to get the numbers down. Building is slow &  expensive, so the low hanging fruit is the existing stock. This will drive up rents for those renting and purchase prices for those buying. As those who are bothered to provide themselves their own roof are not well organised nor represented so I have no doubt this will continue. I think FG need to watch out for the silent protest though. Having said that though, those with the greatest assets, pensioners, must be delighted with the increase in the value of their homes.


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## WolfeTone (16 Dec 2019)

You are only offered emergency accommodation like a hostel, or a hotel if kids are involved, _if you are in danger of having no roof over your head. _
If you are staying with parents, even sleeping on the floor, you can register as homeless. But you are not necessarily considered an _emergency _by virtue of having a roof over your head and access to basic items like showers, toilets etc. 
You would be offered _emergency accommodation_ if you reported that your parents were intent on evicting you. But if they were not, at best your situation would be assessed by social care worker, and perhaps funding to buy some mattresses. 
If social care worker deemed conditions below acceptable standards, its possible, but not guaranteed a hotel could be offered. But in the main, living in overcrowded conditions with parents is generally not deemed a reason to offer emergency accommodation.
According to report I attached earlier, there are 71,858 people on social housing list. 3,465 have cited overcrowding as the main need for social housing supports - they are still waiting, and are not living in hotels! 

The quickest way to get onto a social housing list is to fill out an application form from a local authority - not this elaborate 'expert' scheme to take advantage of the system.
These people had accommodation, they were paying rent, are they working? Did they give up jobs too? 
Apparently they were offered hotel accommodation but didn't stay there. They stayed at parents house. Someone told them to 'show up' at hotel (who?) - wouldn't cleaners become curious if rooms were never slept in? Or are they all in on this cunning plot also? 
Wouldn't hotel management think, perhaps I could let out these rooms for general commercial use and make a profit, or is having homeless people and their kids the prime market these days?


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## WolfeTone (16 Dec 2019)

Purple said:


> That supply is just not there





Purple said:


> There are 1700 homeless families. If we improved the allocation of the existing stock (move people around) by 00.7% then we'd have no homeless families.



Yes, and not forgetting that 40% of private owned housing is under occupied or vacant altogether. 
An incentivised scheme, offering tax breaks on income for example, could be offering at a fraction of the cost needed to build the required housing. 
It would help embed down-sizing as a social norm. Tax efficient, environmentally beneficial and I believe the benefits would outweigh the costs significantly.


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## valery (16 Dec 2019)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> The more relevant comparison is the foreign-born population of *Dublin*.



17 % of the population in Dublin are foreign born.  However the vast majority are EU born.  9 of the top 10 nationalities living in Ireland are from the EU.  Brazilians occupy 6th on the list.
21% of homeless families in Dublin in 2018 were from Non EU countries.  During a recent discussion on the radio, it was claimed that some of these were here illegally and were bypassing the asylum system by accessing homeless assistance. The figure for 2017 was 23%.
its not just Irish gaming the system.

Irish born accounted for two thirds of families accessing homeless services in Dublin during 2018.


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## Purple (17 Dec 2019)

WolfeTone said:


> You are only offered emergency accommodation like a hostel, or a hotel if kids are involved, _if you are in danger of having no roof over your head. _
> If you are staying with parents, even sleeping on the floor, you can register as homeless. But you are not necessarily considered an _emergency _by virtue of having a roof over your head and access to basic items like showers, toilets etc.
> You would be offered _emergency accommodation_ if you reported that your parents were intent on evicting you. But if they were not, at best your situation would be assessed by social care worker, and perhaps funding to buy some mattresses.
> If social care worker deemed conditions below acceptable standards, its possible, but not guaranteed a hotel could be offered. But in the main, living in overcrowded conditions with parents is generally not deemed a reason to offer emergency accommodation.
> ...


You might not want to believe what people are telling you but that doesn't mean it isn't happening. 
If I owned a hotel and had customers paying for rooms they didn't use I'd be delighted; no cleaning cost, no breakfast to provide etc.
People who are struggling to pay rent see an option of having their rent paid by someone else. Some take that opportunity. Others have self respect and integrity and don't. 

I think you are being deliberately obtuse or incredibly naive if you don't accept that there is a sizable chunk of the Irish people who are willing to scam the system to get a free/cheap home. We are a nation of tax evaders, why would this be different?


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## WolfeTone (17 Dec 2019)

Purple said:


> You might not want to believe what people are telling you but that doesn't mean it isn't happening



I can assure you that the cunning plot to scam the system for a free/cheap home as outlined previously is far from 'expert', as suggested.
Emergency accommodation is only offered if someone, or a family, is in danger of going a night without a roof over their head.
It is not offered to those who are staying with their mammies.
TD's and Dept of Social Welfare dont offer emergency accommodation. They may provide help in getting in contact with homeless agencies like Simon, or Merchant Quay. 
Once you arrive at their door, they will assess your situation. They will ask questions like 
- how long have you been homeless, or
- what were the circumstances that made you homeless?

If you answer, "im actually staying with mammy", you can register as homeless - but this cunning plan to get a cheap home will fall flat on its face.

I have no doubt that some people are scamming the system, but the plan outlined above, is not of them. It is an idiots guide to losing the home you already had.


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## WolfeTone (17 Dec 2019)

Purple said:


> If I owned a hotel and had customers paying for rooms they didn't use I'd be delighted; no cleaning cost, no breakfast to provide etc.



That would require you as the hotel owner to engage in the scam also, using public funds for illicit purposes. 



Purple said:


> Others have self respect and integrity and don't.



Indeed.


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## Purple (17 Dec 2019)

WolfeTone said:


> I can assure you that the cunning plot to scam the system for a free/cheap home as outlined previously is far from 'expert', as suggested.
> Emergency accommodation is only offered if someone, or a family, is in danger of going a night without a roof over their head.
> It is not offered to those who are staying with their mammies.
> TD's and Dept of Social Welfare dont offer emergency accommodation. They may provide help in getting in contact with homeless agencies like Simon, or Merchant Quay.
> ...


Okay, it's naivety.
We are talking about families here, not individuals and nobody is going to say that they are staying with Mammy. They are going to say that they had to leave their rental apartment because they couldn't afford to pay the rent and now they were split up, sleeping with friends and family, that they couldn't live with mammy as she's too infirm and couldn't cope with the kids etc.
If the mother is claiming single parents supports then she moves into the father's house and rents it from him, gettingrent support from the State.


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## Purple (17 Dec 2019)

WolfeTone said:


> That would require you as the hotel owner to engage in the scam also, using public funds for illicit purposes.


How so? Is it up to her to police room occupancy?


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## WolfeTone (17 Dec 2019)

Purple said:


> Okay, it's naivety.



There's quite a lot of it this morning!



Purple said:


> They are going to say that they had to leave their rental apartment because they couldn't afford to pay the rent and now they were split up, sleeping with friends and family, that they couldn't live with mammy as she's too infirm and couldn't cope with the kids etc.



So _in danger of not having a roof over their heads? Yes? _
In which case they would be offered emergency hotel accommodation.
(Do they get choose the hotel? Im just wondering, because if they dont, and its a hotel where the owner does have integrity, who is not prone to scams that save money generated from not serving some cornflakes, eggs and a bit of bacon, wont this scupper the plan?)

If they accept emergency accommodation, they will be routinely assessed by care workers, who I'd imagine, would be clued in somewhat to exposing any sort of dastardly scam like this.
If I can see it the flaws from here, then those working in the field certainly will also.



Purple said:


> How so?



Really? You need to have it explained to you that receiving public or charitable funds for the purposes of providing emergency accommodation to families, whilst knowing that there are no homeless families staying in the hotel and exploiting this situation to profit on savings from serving cornflakes, eggs and a bit of bacon, and cleaning costs is misleading at best, fraudulent at worst?

Or do you think this is just good commercial enterprise?


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## Purple (17 Dec 2019)

WolfeTone said:


> There's quite a lot of it this morning!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What care worker in their right mind would get in the middle of that? The Irish Times and RTE would have a field day. The Journal would wet itself. Fintan O'School would probably turn himself inside out. Miriam Lord would write one of her sarcastic and ill-informed opinion pieces (an Opinion Piece is when someone presents unsubstantiated opinion as journalism; it's the Letting Off Steam of Newspapers. Many a good living is made off it as it is food for the minds of the chattering classes and the permanently outraged). 



WolfeTone said:


> Really? You need to have it explained to you that receiving public or charitable funds for the purposes of providing emergency accommodation to families, whilst knowing that there are no homeless families staying in the hotel and exploiting this situation to profit on savings from serving cornflakes, eggs and a bit of bacon, and cleaning costs is misleading at best, fraudulent at worst?
> 
> Or do you think this is just good commercial enterprise?


The hotel owner (or more likely the manager as the owner is probably a pension fund) is getting paid to provide rooms. They are providing those rooms. 
If we were to insist on those standards then should all the HSE and other State employees who do nothing much for their State money also be done for fraud?


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## WolfeTone (17 Dec 2019)

Purple said:


> The Irish Times and RTE would have a field day. The Journal would wet itself. Fintan O'School would probably turn himself inside out. Miriam Lord would write one of her sarcastic and ill-informed opinion pieces




Wow! The plot thickens. There was me naively thinking it was a story



Fella said:


> from a guy I know who told me



...but you have exposed multi-layers of this scam. Hotel managers are facilitating the bogus room rental and well known award winning journalists are providing the media cover so that nobody dare expose the _real truth! _

I can only summarize that you believe all this to be true? 

I retract what I said about Conor Skehans article being awful, he did make at least one pertinent point - Only the Facts will do...


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## Purple (17 Dec 2019)

I'll bow out of this one here.


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## WolfeTone (17 Dec 2019)

The purpose of this thread was to discuss Conor Skehans article on homelessness.

As I have had to retract my initial view that it was awful, instead it has at least one pertinent point, then unless there are anu other related comments I kindly request moderator to close this topic to further replies.


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## Peanuts20 (18 Dec 2019)

Bronte said:


> This is nonsense.  Tell that to my brother who commutted weekly to Dublin.  Tell that to me and the countless others who moved abraod, which is a heck of a lot further than Leitrim.  Tell that to my sister who did two hour commutes.  Tell that indeed to most of my family who live in different counties.  The only family I have living in Dublin, D4 as it happens, they live there because they are wealthy.  Oddly you think we should be entitled to live close to each other for family networds. But what you mean is those who get free housing get that choice. Nobody else does.



My arguement, if you bothered to read the rest of my post, is that moving away from the family network adds additional costs to people who quite often are not well paid. I never said someone had an entitlement.

I'm someone who moved out of Dublin to my wives home town simply for that family network. I'm also someone who lived abroad and when we did the maths in our case, it made no sense to live abroad or in Dublin where we had no network and made more sense for us to take a pay cut and move to a rural town. The opposite case also applies for a lot of people, moving away from family adds costs. Its as simple as that

I also have 2 uncles who managed to buy their own houses in the 70s in Dublin and Cork respectively, despite doing manual and relatively lowly paid jobs (mechanic and bar manager respectively) . Fat chance a mechanic or hair dresser or shop assistant has of trying to buy a house in Dublin these days. The long term socital impact of the lack of social housing in our cities is going to be disasterous. How are all these people expected to


Brendan Burgess said:


> Because of this comment:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



the sheer lack of compassion and understanding from people who are clearly mature and middle class on here is staggering.  You may want to live in an Ireland where the poor, the downtrodden, the mentally ill, those who need help, those whose lives took a negative turn due to often no fault of their own are no longer a priority but are secondry to those of us who have the ability to own property but its not an Ireland I want a part of.


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## Purple (18 Dec 2019)

Peanuts20 said:


> I also have 2 uncles who managed to buy their own houses in the 70s in Dublin and Cork respectively, despite doing manual and relatively lowly paid jobs (mechanic and bar manager respectively) . Fat chance a mechanic or hair dresser or shop assistant has of trying to buy a house in Dublin these days.


 A bar manager is not a manual job and both a mechanic and a bar manager should be earning well above the average industrial wage. That said they will still struggle to buy a house in Dublin but so will most graduates. 



Peanuts20 said:


> the sheer lack of compassion and understanding from people who are clearly mature and middle class on here is staggering.  You may want to live in an Ireland where the poor, the downtrodden, the mentally ill, those who need help, those whose lives took a negative turn due to often no fault of their own are no longer a priority but are secondry to those of us who have the ability to own property but its not an Ireland I want a part of.


 What is frustrating is the idiotic narrative that this is the government's fault and that this is an Irish problem. This is a global problem caused by global issues. We can certainly do things to make it better... oh wait, we have doing things which are making it better; despite being the worst hit country in Europe during the crash, despite the total collapse of our housing sector and having an utterly dysfunctional and inefficient construction sector, despite already having a massively unbalanced taxation system which unfairly hits high earners, we still manage to be the 5th best country in the EU when it comes to homelessness.
If we lacked compassion we'd be worse off but if we didn't have such an emotive and ideologically laden national conversation about the issue we'd probably have no homelessness as the solutions are simple, fast, cheap and almost painless but we won't implement them because it doesn't suit the ideology of those in the homelessness industry and in fairness to Focus Ireland etc they are running a business.


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## Blackrock1 (18 Dec 2019)

from what i can see some people wont be happy until every single person in the state is housed in an A rated 3 bed semi, anything less than that is indicative of a lack of compassion...


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## Leo (18 Dec 2019)

Peanuts20 said:


> My arguement, if you bothered to read the rest of my post, is that moving away from the family network adds additional costs to people who quite often are not well paid. I never said someone had an entitlement.



Who benefits most from proximity of a family network? A couple struggling to pay a mortgage and manage kids while holding down two jobs, doing their best to pay their way, or a low work intensity household who are dependent on social welfare?


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## The Horseman (18 Dec 2019)

Peanuts20 said:


> I also have 2 uncles who managed to buy their own houses in the 70s in Dublin and Cork respectively, despite doing manual and relatively lowly paid jobs (mechanic and bar manager respectively) . Fat chance a mechanic or hair dresser or shop assistant has of trying to buy a house in Dublin these days. The long term socital impact of the lack of social housing in our cities is going to be disasterous. How are all these people expected to
> 
> 
> the sheer lack of compassion and understanding from people who are clearly mature and middle class on here is staggering.  You may want to live in an Ireland where the poor, the downtrodden, the mentally ill, those who need help, those whose lives took a negative turn due to often no fault of their own are no longer a priority but are secondry to those of us who have the ability to own property but its not an Ireland I want a part of.



For a single person who saves an average of €50 per week for 10 yrs they have €26k or €100 per week for 5 yrs you have €26k. So if a couple each saved the same amount they have €52k either after 5 yrs or 10 yrs depending on the average saving. 

So a graduate who gets a job after college at say 22 yrs of age and saves an average of €100 per week by the time they are in their late 20's they have enought with a partner for a reasonable deposit of €52k.

Saving an average of €100 per week should not be difficult if you expect to get a mortgage where your repayments would be anywhere between €800 and a €1000 per month or €400 to €500 each if you are a couple. 

These figures are acheiveable for people who would be working for a couple of years and would not be on entry level wages. 

There is not a lack of compassion in this thread, there is a however indications that people have a sense of entitlement to get what they want while not making some simple sacrifices to get what they want whereby others have made those scarifices and see others getting what they have sacrificed for without any scarifice.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (18 Dec 2019)

Purple said:


> A bar manager is not a manual job



Stacking and changing kegs, loading fridges, clearing out empties, washing glasses, preparing drinks, wiping down surfaces, manhandling the odd drunk..........it's a pretty manual job!


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## Purple (18 Dec 2019)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> Stacking and changing kegs, loading fridges, clearing out empties, washing glasses, preparing drinks, wiping down surfaces, manhandling the odd drunk..........it's a pretty manual job!


They are also managing other staff, managing stock levels, managing the takings etc.
A surgeon also does a considerable amount of manual work but it still wouldn't be considered a manual job.


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## Purple (18 Dec 2019)

valery said:


> 17 % of the population in Dublin are foreign born.  However the vast majority are EU born.  9 of the top 10 nationalities living in Ireland are from the EU.  Brazilians occupy 6th on the list.
> 21% of homeless families in Dublin in 2018 were from Non EU countries.  During a recent discussion on the radio, it was claimed that some of these were here illegally and were bypassing the asylum system by accessing homeless assistance. The figure for 2017 was 23%.
> its not just Irish gaming the system.
> 
> Irish born accounted for two thirds of families accessing homeless services in Dublin during 2018.


It is unlikely that people with no family in this country will have access to parental/family housing in this country.
That, to me, would seem obvious. Therefore it is harder for them to game the system.
Some of the 23% may well be here illegally. If they are and fail in their attempts to stay here legally then they should be deported without delay. Then there's be more free houses for the locals and more people will just join the list.

As long as the State is giving out free houses we'll have a homelessness "crisis".


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## Drakon (19 Dec 2019)

I think it was a good article. 

BTW, anyone that thinks water charges were an austerity measure is a langer.


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