# Satellite dish and Management company



## Mick31 (25 Sep 2009)

Hi,

I live in a mixed block of apartments and houses with Management company involved in maintaining common grounds.  

Some residents including myself have satellite dishes on our balconies, and now the management company wants them removed or they will do so at a charge.  House rules do say that no satellite dish rule applies; however, since many residents are from other EU states the only way we could get channels in our languages is via satellite dish.  

My question is even though there is no satellite dish rule, is this in a direct breach of an EU directive on free flow of goods and services within the common market?  Given that there is no shared dish, residents cannot avail of satellite signal without erecting their own dish.  

Is such a rule a barrier provided there is no adequate alternative in place?


----------



## j26 (25 Sep 2009)

It's getting pretty common in the terms of the lease (the long term lease between the developer and apartment owner) that no satelite dishes be erected externally.

In this case, erecting a dish is a breach of the terms of the lease, and could (theoretically) at least lead to forefeiture of the lease, meaning that the apartment owner, who has probably spend several hundred thousand could lose the lease, without compensation.  Obviously a landlord who received such a warning from a management company because of the behaviour of a tenant would be motivated to ensure that the tenant complies with the terms of the lease.

Anyway, EU Directives don't have direct effect in the law of the state unless they are not implemented within the required timescale.  You'd be on a hard road to win that one, and if you were, you'd be suing the State, not the management company.

I'm not sure about the statement that they will remove them for you - they are running the risk of doing criminal damage to the dishes.  I doubt they have the power to do so, but on the other hand, the external surfaces (to which the dish is attached) is not generally included in the lease, so you could be accused of criminal damage if you drove any screws into the external surface to attach the dish.


----------



## ontour (26 Sep 2009)

If you do a search here and on boards you will see lots of discussion on this topic.  I notice more and more people putting them inside the apartment these days and opening the window !

Some developments have opted for a shared satellite dish on the roof so it may be worth seeing if there are enough people in the block that are interested and put that option to the management company.

It is also important to remember that the rules 'belong' to the apartment owners as they are the management company.


----------



## Mick31 (26 Sep 2009)

So what happens in reality?

Forfeiture of the lease on a  property under a mortgage of 250k? I don't think thats realistic. Ireland does implement EU directive on internal market, however this issue with dishes seems quite unregulated.  I believe it falls under contract law, but at the same time as any contract it is subject to other laws, one of them being free flow of goods and services, freedom of choice...At the moment there is only UPC-NTL, basically, a monopoly has been created.


----------



## j26 (26 Sep 2009)

Mick31 said:


> So what happens in reality?
> 
> Forfeiture of the lease on a  property under a mortgage of 250k? I don't think thats realistic. Ireland does implement EU directive on internal market, however this issue with dishes seems quite unregulated.  I believe it falls under contract law, but at the same time as any contract it is subject to other laws, one of them being free flow of goods and services, freedom of choice...At the moment there is only UPC-NTL, basically, a monopoly has been created.



Reality, no it doesn't happen, but it's very easy for the landlord to take proceedings to compel the apartment owner to get it removed if it's a clear term of the lease.  Failure to do so can lead to escalation that could lead to forefeiture proceedings being threatened (if not actually initiated).

Leases are contract law - it's hard to argue for freedom to contract by breaching your own.

I am aware of such 'closed shop' type arangements, and do believe they are anti-competitive.


----------



## serotoninsid (26 Sep 2009)

ontour said:


> Some developments have opted for a shared satellite dish on the roof so it may be worth seeing if there are enough people in the block that are interested and put that option to the management company.


 This is the way it is done in other countries and had their been any forethought, it would have been implemented here. Sky now have a seperate company established with a view to installing systems for apartment blocks.


----------



## Mick31 (26 Sep 2009)

We did get letters from Sky who already liaised with the Management Company in relation to Shared Dish instalation.  

The main problem was that Sky was only willing to provide Sky channels, and they would not provide residents with satellite signals from satellites such as HotBird, EutelSat, PolSat and so on.  Many residents have their dishes so they could watch tv channels from their own countries, which is fair enough.  

I see this satellite dish rule very controversial as houses in the same estate have their dishes up.  Managment company first said that they own external walls and that damage could be inflicted due to satellite dishes being erected. Following that some residents removed their dishes and simply clamped them on balcony rail so there is no structural damage there.  Then Management Company said that it's the impact on visual aspect of the estate, but at the same time people have bbq, bikes, all sort of things on their balconies that also impact the visual aspect.  As well as that, you can clearly see from any part of the estate, satellite dishes on the houses, which are next to apartments so I suppose they already spoil the look of the complex.  

I also noticed that many residents have their alarms on the external walls, but nobody confronted them about structural damage.  I am not a lawyer but something does not sound right in all this.  

Perhaps the question should be does a clause in a contract mean that it is valid or legal?


----------



## MandaC (26 Sep 2009)

It has always been something that would put me off buying an apartment.  

I actually have a (very small) dish on my roof of house, because we have to get sky (no choice of NTL) as have all the houses.  But all the dishes are put up in the same area on the houses and are the same size, very small.

Where I lived previously, someone decided to put one of those massive Satellite dishes over the front door of a house.  It looked horrible and they were not too happy when I told them they needed planning permission, but had it moved.

Sometimes the satellite dishes needed to bring in the foreign TV channels are a bit on the large side, to say the least. They do spoil the visual impact of an area.  Perhaps the management company has had complaints from people in the Complex, as another person pointed out, the Management Company are the owners.

And I see your point about the bikes/barbeques, etc.


----------



## serotoninsid (26 Sep 2009)

There are contractors that specialise in dish installation and cabling for apartment blocks.  I only mentioned sky as they are (finally) gearing up for this. All that needs to be done is that it becomes a planning requirement. Its not actually a major cost and it would lead to everyone being happy.


----------



## shesells (4 Oct 2009)

Mick31 said:


> Following that some residents removed their dishes and simply clamped them on balcony rail so there is no structural damage there.
> 
> I also noticed that many residents have their alarms on the external walls, but nobody confronted them about structural damage.  I am not a lawyer but something does not sound right in all this.
> 
> Perhaps the question should be does a clause in a contract mean that it is valid or legal?



You don't own the balcony, the management company does so you have no right to attach anything to the rails. You have exclusive use of your balcony but AFAIK you cannot attach anything to the rails. Clamping to rails does have a damage issue, we recently got a quote in excess of 20k to paint all the rails in the development!

On alarms, most units are pre-wired for alarms so no drilling is required. You cannot drill holes through external walls or railings as you do not own them.

While you may be entitled to access media from your home country, you have no right to a specific form of access. With such media available over the internet...you are not being blocked access. The EU directive does not specify access through a satellite dish and with cable and the internet you already have plenty of methods to get media information from other countries.

If a lease says no satellite dishes and you signed it it means you agreed to abide by that. If you didn't then you should never have signed it.

BTW mods surely this belongs on the Managed Developments sub-forum?


----------



## europhile (4 Oct 2009)

> If a lease says no satellite dishes and you signed it it means you agreed to abide by that. If you didn't then you should never have signed it.



Spot on.  I am constantly amazed by people who sign these leases and then go on to ignore them - erecting satellite dishes, bringing bicycles indoors, etc.


----------



## virtue972 (5 Oct 2009)

Most of the times, the apartment complex will let you know in advance if you can have 'Dish Network" or not.  Many apartments complex will let you have your dish satellite on the 1st floor only.  I understand your need.  I'm enjoying my " TV5 Channel" which is a French news channel and watch soccer games live from different countries.

You're not going to win against the apartment, but you can get out of dish contract if you can truly prove that the apartment is making you remove it.










[broken link removed]


----------

