# Obtaining a Work Permit



## my2leftfeet (12 Nov 2004)

Does anyone have any experience of obtaining work permits? I see that Clerical and Administrative positions are ineligible - I am looking for suggestions as to alternative but closely linked category to submit under.


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## ClubMan (12 Nov 2004)

Not sure if you're only looking for first hand experience, which I don't have, but perhaps  might be of help?


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## my2leftfeet (12 Nov 2004)

Thanks Clubman. I want to offer a job to a person who requires a work permit. She has one with her existing employer [in Ireland] but if she leaves the job the permit expires. When I try to apply for one I am told that the particular category of job is ineligible for work permit. What I really need to know is whether there is a way around this.


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## ClubMan (13 Nov 2004)

* When I try to apply for one I am told that the particular category of job is ineligible for work permit.*

Surely if the job is ineligible for a work permit employee then, short of fraud, that's that?



> *Occupations that are currently ineligible for work permits (after April, 2004)*
> 
> The Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, following consultation with FÁS, will announce, on a quarterly basis, occupational sectors that are considered ineligible for work permits. Note - the following list has not changed since April, 2004 and remains in force until further announcements by the Department.
> 
> ...


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## Max Hopper (13 Nov 2004)

I just love the  that abounds on AAM. , you are spot-on. Give an EUer the position and get on with it, .<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->The great thing about hiring EUers is that if you intimidate, bully, discriminate, or otherwise glance sideways at one, you are in the Labour Relations Court, pronto. Not like those Asians, Yanks, Canucks, and ex-Soviets. Just wave their work permit overhead and presto! Instant submissiveness.


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## Brendan Burgess (15 Nov 2004)

If it's a clerical or administrative positon, what is your motivation in trying to employ a non-EU person? 

Although the word "fraud" might apply to some efforts to get around regultions, I wouldn't always consider it fraud.  Some years ago, the American fiancée of a friend of mine was refused a work permit, which he considered stupid as there were so many Irish people emigrating to America. He adapted the description of her experience and qualifications, so that she got a work permit. I certainly don't consider it fraud. 

Brendan


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## Max Hopper (15 Nov 2004)

wrote -





> <snip><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->adapted the description of her experience and qualifications<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--></snip>


Either the bureaucrats in ETE were morons and could not establish that she possessed skills *unavailable throughout the EU* from her CV or your friend committed fraud by altering the facts.<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->Your comment about Irish and their emmigration to America is of interest. Do you refer to the late 19th / early 20th century? Or the Morrison and Donnelly visas? Are you suggesting that Ireland should confer citizenship on any American that applies?


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## rainyday (15 Nov 2004)

> your friend committed fraud by altering the facts


That would depend on whether the description was still accurate, post-alteration.


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## Max Hopper (15 Nov 2004)

Dunno, , your mincing about so much makes me uncomfortable.<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->We'd better begin researching to find another location besides the EU and the USA when (presuming here) under-28s from America are more highly educated/trained/talented/skilled than *any* EU national. Any work permits issued for professions other than university-level project researcher, mushroom-picking, and spud-digging are garnered through fraud and deception. Failing to recognise that as such will qualify one for a tax exemption as being blind.


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## rainyday (15 Nov 2004)

The only mincing I do involves Superquinn's best round steak, some garlic & some spring onion. You assume that the alteration to the work permit request involves fraud. I merely pointed out that you make a substantial assumption here - It may have been possible to rephrase the permit request * while still maintain accuracy* and not involve fraud.


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## Max Hopper (15 Nov 2004)

You've missed twice now, .<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--> wrote -





> <snip><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->It may have been possible to rephrase the permit request<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--></snip>


That is not possible. The _law_, which many choose to disregard when it suits, only provides for work permits to be issued to employers. Not Jane Bloggs. So the *position requirements* would need _amending_ to suit the CV of the applicant. And had the _law_ been followed, the requirements would be well-known _prior_ to the non-EUer applying.<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->Fraud? You decide. I have. It is simply wrong.


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## ClubMan (15 Nov 2004)

I would tend towards _Max Hopper's_ view that there is probably little or no legitimate wiggle room when it comes to statutory rules applicable to this and other situations. I get nervous when people state or insinuate that that one can have some sort of a la carte attitude to legislation in this and other contexts.


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## rainyday (15 Nov 2004)

Here's a suggestion for future reference, Max. When someone states an opinion with which you disagree, that does not necessarily mean that they have 'missed it'. I didn't miss it - I get it.

There are possible amendments to a work permit form that would involve fraud, and there are possible amendments to a work permit form that would not involve fraud. It depends on what was changed.


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## Max Hopper (15 Nov 2004)

Care to back this up, ?





> <snip><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->there are possible amendments to a work permit form that would not involve fraud.<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--></snip>


And I maintain that you are _mincing about_.


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## rainyday (16 Nov 2004)

For example, adding a comma which was omitted in the original application would not constitute fraud. I'm sure you can develop the basic idea from there to understand what other kinds of changes could be made that would not constitute fraud.


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## Max Hopper (16 Nov 2004)

Have you a clue as to how absurd your explanation is?-----------------------​*adding a comma which was omitted in the original application*​-----------------------​If at all possible, do elaborate on how the amendment of a comma to a work permit application will alter the position's requirements such that the ETE would _reconsider_ the applicant.<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->*Requirements:*<!--EZCODE LIST START--><ul><li>Born in month of July and year of 1976</li><li>Must  have graduated from preparatory school in the state of Connecticut</li><li>Must have attend and graduated from a university based in Illinois (ca. 1998)</li><li>GPA between 3.42 and 3.45</li><li>Must have majored in Advanced Fingerpainting with a minor in Breathing for Credit</li></ul><!--EZCODE LIST END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->Yeah, she'll get the job, now (but where is the _*comma*_?).


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## rainyday (16 Nov 2004)

Hi Max - We know from your previous posts that you are not short on brain power. I know that you are more than capable of taking the example which I gave and using it to develop a train of thought as to how one could amend a work permit application, while still keeping it accurate and improve the chances of approval. Life is too short for me to hand-hold you through this thought process, step by step.


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## Max Hopper (16 Nov 2004)

Uhh, not a runner, .<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->You've backpedalled and now you are on the spot for supporting *cute hoorism*.<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->We'll wait for your justification (and something about _*commas*_, too if you please, because I am feeling a bit 'tick' today).


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## Brendan Burgess (16 Nov 2004)

Clubman said:
_I get nervous when people state or insinuate that that one can have some sort of a la carte attitude to legislation in this and other contexts._ 

If an insurance broker cashs his client's cheque and uses the money for his own purposes that's fraud with a capital F.

A guy goes to work in America for three years. While there, he falls in love and gets engaged to an American girl. She returns to Ireland with him and she applies for a work permit. They look up the list of jobs drawn up by Mary Harney and say, '"sorry you are not on the list, you can't work in Ireland"
She is a dynamic enthusiastic worker ( a rare enough entity - as rare as a good, enthusiastic employer) who has a good reason for being in Ireland. An employer friend of hers has a job which he is finding it difficult to get someone for. She stretches her CV and he stretches the job spec. She gets the job. They get married and they all live happily ever after...

I do appreciate your nervousness about a la carte interpretations of the law, but I think there are certain times where it is understandable. I don't think I would jail either for it.

Brendan


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## Max Hopper (16 Nov 2004)

Exxxxxxxxxxxxxxxcuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuse ME!<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->I missed the fine legal point of _inconvenience_.<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->Could your use of _extenuating circumstances_ be applied to the spouses of Fillipino nurses? Uhh, Ms. Harney  and Mam O'Rourke said... *no*. Or asylum-seekers? Or any other non-EU national that happens to like living in Ireland?<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->Don't get me wrong, , I'm only after parity and the rule of law here. Neither of which your friend supported by his action.


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## ClubMan (16 Nov 2004)

*I do appreciate your nervousness about a la carte interpretations of the law, but I think there are certain times where it is understandable.*

I would be more inclined to lobby/campaign for an allegedly unreasonable law to be changed than to arbitrarily break or bend it for the purposes of expediency. Otherwise where do we draw the line in terms of people deciding that certain laws are "bad" and should not apply to them? Seems to me that's the sort of attitude that ends up requiring expensive tribunals to sort out... :\


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## rainyday (16 Nov 2004)

> We'll wait for your justification


Don't hold your breath. You got my justification. You don't like it, but you did get it.


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## Max Hopper (16 Nov 2004)

*Re: Obtaining a Work Perm*

Right, then. We'll agree to leave it there. What with you stamping your feet and pouting there is nothing further to maturely debate.<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->That's three now, .


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## Max Hopper (19 Nov 2004)

Comments, anyone? Brendo?<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->I'm comin' home. Mam!


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## purple (25 Nov 2004)

We had an experience like this.
A Romanian man who was working for one of our suppliers was temporarily laid off due to a fire as their premises. He was not earning and came to us for part time work. In the end it took a solicitor and a number of meetings with the department to sort out the transfer of his work permit. That was three years ago and he is still with us. Speaking as an employer I think that the present system is crazy on two counts; 
Firstly the fact that the work permit is granted to the employer is discriminatory to the worker. It gives unscrupulous employers intolerable control over their employee. If their skill is required within the workforce then give them access to the entire workforce.  
Secondly there is a major shortage of low and medium skilled, as well as high skilled, workers in manufacturing.
Our biggest problem is not getting work, it's getting people to do the work. And it's not about money, some of the tradesmen on our factory floor earn over 100k a year with the average being around 50-60K. The accession state migrants have been a god send for Irish manufacturing. Why not give others the same opportunities. If it were the case that they were pushing wages down or taking jobs from EU citizens I would be against it but that's simply not the case.


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