# Any Irish Bankrupts here



## michaelg (17 Sep 2014)

Any people here gone through the new Irish system ?
Would love to have a chat


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## Silvio Dante (17 Sep 2014)

Hi Michael,

Yes, I have completed almost a year.
Curate's egg but probably more good than bad experience.

Be very careful of one area.
Pensions.

Despite most commentators saying pensions are safe under the new legislation this simply isn't the case and the OA will sell your pension for whatever crap surrender price he can get fully taxed at age 50

I am currently writing to a number of TDs and Senators who were very engaged in drafting with a view to having this overturned.
It was never the intention or spirit of the new legislation to have done this and one TD has admitted he had never spotted the small section that allows the pension to be seized if you are over 47 years old when made bankrupt and called it "sneaky"

I am very new to this forum so maybe PM initially.
I posted what I thought was an important question on positive equity a month ago which is absolutely vital to me but didn't get a single reply so a little reticent now.


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## Brendan Burgess (18 Sep 2014)

Hi Silvio

I don't understand your argument.

On the date of your bankruptcy you had assets and liabilities. The assets should be sold to pay your liabilities. One of your assets is your pension fund. Of course, it should be sold or cashed to pay your liabilities.  Your creditors should not get stung while you walk away with a valuable asset. 

I do not understand why people want to treat the pension fund differently from other investments.   If it were protected, then people who were in financial difficulty could stuff their pension fund instead of paying their creditors. 

You tagged your family home question onto a Key Post, so it got missed. I don't know the answer but I have suggested that you ask your bankruptcy advisor as it's a very interesting question.

Brendan


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## michaelg (18 Sep 2014)

Thanks Silvio
It looks very likely that i will be starting the bankruptcy process myself in the coming months and i may have a few questions about the process etc etc, if you don't mind as Im a little anxious over it
I'm having trouble PM'ing you, the forum wont give me that option, perhaps you could try sending me a quick pm and i'll respond.
Thanks
Michael


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## Silvio Dante (19 Sep 2014)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Hi Silvio
> 
> I don't understand your argument.
> 
> ...



Hi Brendan,

Sorry about the key post tagging on the house post (accidental, new poster etc..).
Friel Stafford have definitely written stuff on the equity built up while non bankrupt alone paid mortgage so perhaps Jim Stafford might have a comment on it?

Anyway to stay with the subject matter please see below.

Let's not get bogged on whether logically or even morally pensions should or shouldn't be included, we will be here till doomsday.
The simple fact is that we were all led to believe it would be excluded and almost all bullet point analysis by commentators pointed to pensions being excluded in the new legislation.

The potential abuse you mention of someone facing financial problems and stacking his pension in the years prior to bankruptcy is more than adequately fenced off in the new legislation so that's a non issue
In fact the legislation specifically dealing with abuse by stuffing your pension fund pre bankruptcy shows the spirit of the legislation did not intend to pursue pensions in bankruptcy.
Why create legislation to fence something off if that asset (pension) is to be taken anyway?
But that's the nub of it.
Pensions are excluded, for most!

If you are in a scheme and continuing to pay in, you are safe and it can’t be touched.
If you have left or lost a job and your pension was put in a PRB or any other vehicle (the standard format for your pension contributions on leaving/losing employment) then a massively unfair anomaly in the legislation appears
If you are 47 years or older on date of adjudication, your pension will be taken off you.
If you are 46 years and 364 days or younger, not one cent of your pension can be touched.
I'm sorry but that is unfair.


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## Silvio Dante (19 Sep 2014)

Hi michaelg

I'm having difficulty with PM as well so shoot with any questions and I will do my best to give you my views on my experience to date.
Obviously my first point of caution is related to above.
If you are over 47 years of age and have any pension in any form of bond (PRB etc) ignore anyone who says it is safe.


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## Branz (19 Sep 2014)

AFAIK you need 10 posts before u can PM


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## Bronte (22 Sep 2014)

Silvio Dante said:


> I'm having difficulty with PM as well so shoot with any questions and I will do my best to give you my views on my experience to date.
> .


 
Sending PM's kind of defeats the purpose of AAM doesn't it.  Far better for you both to ask questions on the forum to benefit from other's advice.  

You mentioned Jim Stafford upthread, he posts on here sometimes.  

How about you outlining how your bankruptcy began, it might be helpful to others.  We had threads on it before, but now that it's up and running you could let us know your experiences.


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## michaelg (23 Sep 2014)

Silvio
I can Pm you now if needed thanks to Brendan.
What's the meeting with the OA like ? What does he and his team look for ? Do you have regular meetings with him ?
Michael


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## Silvio Dante (23 Sep 2014)

michaelg

You will have a brief meeting with the OA on the day of your adjudication of bankruptcy at their office on Conygham Road 
This will be conducted very quickly and he will recognise its been a tough day for you and will act in a compassionate if businesslike fashion.
He will serve you with the Bankruptcy Order and a Warrant of Seizure.
In respect of the Warrant of Seizure he will stress that sending the sheriff around to your house to take TVs etc is not their game.

He will give you a Statement of Personal information and a Statement of Affairs to be filled out by you.

He will also be helpful in any questions you have.

You will then be given a date (usually within two weeks) to return to their office with documents completed.
They will go through these with you and you will be asked to swear their accuracy.

They will spend a few weeks going through these and you will be then given a date for your Statutory Sitting in court. You must attend this but assuming you have been honest in what you have sworn it will be very routine and quick.
Chris Lehane will inform the court you have complied fully with your obligations.
You will not be requested to speak and will not need legal representation, you merely identify you are in attendance.

If your affairs are relatively simple that will be the last time you will be in court and contact with the OA will be minimal from there on.
Remember he now owns whatever assets you had and doesn't need your permission to sell anything except the Family Home so he doesn't need to be in communication with you anymore once he is satisfied he has everything.
If there is nothing of significant value (eg art) in your Statement of Affairs you wont even get a visit by OA to your house as once again they are not in the business of taking TVs and sofas.

One of the things that will become an immediate relief for you is all communication from your creditors immediately ceases.
It's tough but you will feel a very large sense of relief immediately and sleep better.


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## michaelg (23 Sep 2014)

Thanks so much Silvio, very helpful
I'm a self employed tradesman, Can you confirm they are also not interested in taking my tools and van ? the value of my van is only around 1000.


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## Bronte (24 Sep 2014)

Silvio Dante said:


> One of the things that will become an immediate relief for you is all communication from your creditors immediately ceases.
> It's tough but you will feel a very large sense of relief immediately and sleep better.


 
All your post is excellent as it is informative and you have shared it with others.  

I think the last two sentenances are very important for those who are stressed reading this thread, don't be afraid of bankruptcy, it's far better than the nightmare many of you are currently living.


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## Silvio Dante (24 Sep 2014)

Thanks Bronte 
I may post later on your post re relevance of which partner originally created the equity in the house (ie deposit). Interesting and hadn' previously thought about but surely a legal and administrative minefield to go back maybe 10-15 years and punish the lower earning spouse/partner.

michaelg,

No chance OA will go after either of those. Way below any threshold and may not even be subject to a threshold as they are both work related.


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## Steve Thatcher (24 Sep 2014)

Silvio Dante said:


> Thanks Bronte
> I may post later on your post re relevance of which partner originally created the equity in the house (ie deposit). Interesting and hadn' previously thought about but surely a legal and administrative minefield to go back maybe 10-15 years and punish the lower earning spouse/partner.
> 
> michaelg,
> ...



Silvio,

you raise a point which I think is fundamental, which no one can answer and say 'well it will get answered in 10-15 years"

This is precisely what is wrong with the Irish legislation. There are too many unanswered questions, people seem to accept that they are ok to leave problems and stuff they cant understand until later, just to get a resolution to an immediate debt issue.

This thread is a nightmare. There is no answer. there are platitudes and then usual "oh we'll see"

The solution here is long term. They will come back at you. It is a quick short term release of pressure only to be whacked between the knackers a few years later.

I am not peddling my solution, but its just better every time. That is why I am still moving families. The Irish solution is bust, it never worked and never will.

My view

Steve Thatcher


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## khocnhe123 (24 Sep 2014)

Bài đăng của bạn rất hay. thật tâm cảm ơn sự san sớt của bạn. Tôi đã có được nhiều tri thức từ bài đăng này.


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## Steve Thatcher (24 Sep 2014)

khocnhe123 said:


> Bài đăng của bạn rất hay. thật tâm cảm ơn sự san sớt của bạn. Tôi đã có được nhiều tri thức từ bài đăng này.



exactly

Steve


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## DebtCert (24 Sep 2014)

Steve Thatcher said:


> Silvio, you raise a point which I think is fundamental, which no one can answer and say 'well it will get answered in 10-15 years"r



I don't think Silvio is saying that.  He seems to be saying it would be difficult to go back 10-15 years to the early noughties in order to determine the relative equity stakes of a couple.


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## Bronte (25 Sep 2014)

DebtCert said:


> I don't think Silvio is saying that. He seems to be saying it would be difficult to go back 10-15 years to the early noughties in order to determine the relative equity stakes of a couple.


 
Depends on the couple, I can show where every penny went in and out on mortgages.  And I could also, if necessary, show it was either my OH or me that paid it.


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## Bronte (25 Sep 2014)

Steve Thatcher said:


> This is precisely what is wrong with the Irish legislation. There are too many unanswered questions,
> 
> The Irish solution is bust, it never worked and never will.


 
I agree with you, it's not very transparent exactly what is on offer, and the fact that it is in some cases open ended is ridiculous. 

We can see with the low rates of take up, and the Insolvency Service now in desparation for clients that it is not working. 

I would prefer 1 and a half years of hell in the UK to be clear as to the end of the problem, and the beginning of a new chance.


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## suarez (25 Sep 2014)

Bronte said:


> I agree with you, it's not very transparent exactly what is on offer, and the fact that it is in some cases open ended is ridiculous.
> 
> We can see with the low rates of take up, and the Insolvency Service now in desparation for clients that it is not working.
> 
> I would prefer 1 and a half years of hell in the UK to be clear as to the end of the problem, and the beginning of a new chance.



It's 6 months of hell in the UK, as opposed to 1 and half years. I returned after 6 months and there wasn't a problem. Of course, there is the one year discharge period after bankruptcy - but that can be spent in Ireland.


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## Matthew Moore (28 Sep 2014)

Silvio, thank you for speaking about your experiences of the Irish system. I hope to be adjudicated by the end of the year myself. I was a little over eager and paid the OA last year when the rules changed but due to personal reasons I have been unable to advance past the lodging forms in draft with the examiner stage.

I am interested to know, has there been any mention of an early discharge from bankruptcy once your affairs have been dealt with?


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## Bronte (29 Sep 2014)

suarez said:


> It's 6 months of hell in the UK, as opposed to 1 and half years. I returned after 6 months and there wasn't a problem. Of course, there is the one year discharge period after bankruptcy - but that can be spent in Ireland.


 
Well 6 months is nothing, I thought you had to stay there for longer, can you tell us your story.


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## Nick (20 Apr 2015)

Silvio Dante said:


> Hi Michael,
> 
> Yes, I have completed almost a year.
> Curate's egg but probably more good than bad experience.
> ...



Hi Silvio,

From reading the post I noticed you have declared bankruptcy.

My name is Nicholas Sweeney and I am a full time Irish student currently in final year of a Bachelor Of Business in Finance.
As part of completion of the course I have to write a dissertation and the area I chose was bankruptcy.

I am investigating options available for Irish people to declare bankruptcy here in Ireland or for an irish individual to declare bankruptcy over in The UK/English Bankruptcy Law. The bankruptcy tourism phenomenom.
I was hoping you might the time or the availability to oblige to answering just a few short questions regarding the whole aspect of it.?
I would be extremely grateful as you would be helping very much with regard to my studies.
Thank you. 

Anonymity will be provided for all answering of the questions and this will be solely used for studies for my degree.


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## epicaricacy (20 Apr 2015)

Hi Nick

I successfully petitioned for bankruptcy in the UK and am willing to answer questions.


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## Catastrophe (20 Apr 2015)

Silvio Dante said:


> Hi Michael,
> 
> Yes, I have completed almost a year.
> Curate's egg but probably more good than bad experience.
> ...


Hi I was just wondering does this apply to all pensions both private and public sector pension?


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## Nick (21 Apr 2015)

epicaricacy said:


> Hi Nick
> 
> I successfully petitioned for bankruptcy in the UK and am willing to answer questions.



Hi epicaricacy

Thank you for that I am extremely grateful and this is extremely helpful. Would you like to private message me with your name and I will reply with the questions. Thank you very much for your time & courtesy.

Nick,


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## Nick (21 Apr 2015)

suarez said:


> It's 6 months of hell in the UK, as opposed to 1 and half years. I returned after 6 months and there wasn't a problem. Of course, there is the one year discharge period after bankruptcy - but that can be spent in Ireland.



Hi Suarez,

From reading the post I noticed you have declared bankruptcy in the UK.
My name is Nicholas Sweeney and I am a full time Irish student currently in final year of a Bachelor Of Business in Finance.
As part of completion of the course I have to write a dissertation and the area I chose was bankruptcy.

I am investigating options available for Irish people to declare bankruptcy here in Ireland or for an irish individual to declare bankruptcy over in The UK/English Bankruptcy Law. The bankruptcy tourism phenomenom.
I was hoping you might the time or the availability to oblige to answering just a few short questions regarding the whole aspect of it.?
I would be extremely grateful as you would be helping very much with regard to my studies.

Thank you.

Anonymity will be provided for all answering of the questions and this will be solely used for studies for my degree.


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