# How much coinage is hoarded in Ireland?



## Ardiff (4 Mar 2010)

Hi all,

A tricky question. I'm trying to establish how much coin money in Euro is out of circulation in Ireland.
That is, money that's sitting in a jar in my house, and your house and everyone else's house!

The Central Bank won't tell me, or can't but, how could we go about estimating this?


Any and all help welcome, but consider it an interview question!
How would you go about estimating the amount of coin money being hoarded in Ireland?

Thanks,
A


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## z107 (4 Mar 2010)

I'd ask 100 people. I'd also try to match the sample distribution to the population distribution, based on income. Just asking people on AAM, for example, would probably give a biased result.

I probably have about €15 in change.


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## Seagull (4 Mar 2010)

It's going to vary significantly depending on household demographics. I know my children love playing with coins and piggy banks, so there's a huge number more coins at home now than before they arrived.


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## truthseeker (4 Mar 2010)

I have over 500 euro in a change jar, himself has a similar amount.

I used to lodge mine everytime it hit the 200 mark, but my credit union no longer allow the lodgement of bagged coins so now I just let it go on and on until the jar gets too heavy to move for hoovering underneath


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## becky (4 Mar 2010)

truthseeker said:


> I have over 500 euro in a change jar, himself has a similar amount.
> 
> I used to lodge mine everytime it hit the 200 mark, but my credit union no longer allow the lodgement of bagged coins so now I just let it go on and on until the jar gets too heavy to move for hoovering underneath


 
What do you do with then?

My mother collects them and credit Union take them bagged off her but only on certain days.


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## truthseeker (4 Mar 2010)

Oh I do a giant bagging session and lodge it to my bank account. Usually happens around once a year. Last time I lodged 713 euro to my current account in bagged coins. Its a pain for me to go to the bank though because I work 9-5 Mon-Fri so I way preferred when I could lodge it in the Credit Union.


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## becky (4 Mar 2010)

Thanks was just wondering.  Now that yyou say it I think my mothers CU doesn't take the lodgement on a saturday anymore - it has to be mid week.


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## fobs (4 Mar 2010)

My daughter has a jar with coins in it. I always had one but my daughter takes all the spare coins now! She would have around €150-200 in it at the moment. Used it up 2 years ago when going on a family holiday and had the price of a digital camera.


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## truthseeker (4 Mar 2010)

becky said:


> Thanks was just wondering. Now that yyou say it I think my mothers CU doesn't take the lodgement on a saturday anymore - it has to be mid week.


 
I must check mine with that - but I think its a blanket ban.

I used to use it for particular things that were expensive and I couldnt justify (like expensive shoes or a new stereo) when I only earned a small amount a week.


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## Ardiff (4 Mar 2010)

Thanks for all of this. 

There are approximately 1.25 million households in the country.
I would estimate that each would have at least €50 in coins lying around.
Ergo 
€62 million in coins out of circulation.

However, the Central Bank has provided me with statistics that show since 2002 they have issued coins to the value of
€674 million across all denominations.

Divide this by the eight full years to get a figure of 
€84.25 million per annum in coins on average issued in the state.

Therefore we can average this to 

*€73 million* in hoarded coin in the state, or *€58* per household.

Bearing in mind tourism, the Euro and other factors, would the forum say that this is a logical conclusion?

Thanks,
A


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## fobs (4 Mar 2010)

Just did a poll in our office of 5 and of the five all have coin jars with values ranging from 20-30 euro to 400 euro.


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## Ardiff (4 Mar 2010)

Thanks for that! Much appreciated.

To be honest, I figured that the money out of circulation (coins) would be higher, but there you go!

I'll keep y'all posted on further research in this area.
A


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## dereko1969 (4 Mar 2010)

i don't see how any figure based on what the CB have issued in Ireland can be relied upon given that we have a currency that's in use across so many member states.


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## Ardiff (4 Mar 2010)

dereko1969 said:


> i don't see how any figure based on what the CB have issued in Ireland can be relied upon given that we have a currency that's in use across so many member states.




100% agreed, but it's at least a guideline. They must have some class of statistical analysis to create specific numbers of each coin.
Unless the banking system is being run on an arbitrary system of....hang on..


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## gipimann (4 Mar 2010)

Do you think that one reason for hoarding coins might be the difficulty in getting rid of them?   I, like many more, have a coin collection, and every 4-6 months I bag it and bring it to a local bank.   Amounts range from 30 - 60 euro or so.

Last time I brought my coins (about €27 worth), I was told that they could no longer be accepted from me since I wasn't an account holder.   Halifax (where my account is...for now!) didn't accept coins, neither does EBS where I have a small savings account. 

Unless I use the coin converter machines in supermarkets, and lose 10-12% of the value, my only other option is to fill my purse and start spending it coin by coin!


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## Ardiff (4 Mar 2010)

gipimann said:


> Do you think that one reason for hoarding coins might be the difficulty in getting rid of them?   I, like many more, have a coin collection, and every 4-6 months I bag it and bring it to a local bank.   Amounts range from 30 - 60 euro or so.
> 
> Last time I brought my coins (about €27 worth), I was told that they could no longer be accepted from me since I wasn't an account holder.   Halifax (where my account is...for now!) didn't accept coins, neither does EBS where I have a small savings account.
> 
> Unless I use the coin converter machines in supermarkets, and lose 10-12% of the value, my only other option is to fill my purse and start spending it coin by coin!



Exactly, hence my research. I'm putting a business plan together to address this issue.


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## becky (4 Mar 2010)

I seem to be one of the few people who spends all my money. I use my coins for my coffee in the morning. I will give €50.73 for a bill of €30.73.

Feel like a bit of freak now.


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## truthseeker (4 Mar 2010)

No Becky - youre not a freak. I will also count out exact change if I happen to have a wallet full of change, but what happens me is I switch bags and purses around, find change in jeans pockets, in the car, occasionally go to the shop with a 20 euro note and the car keys instead of bringing my whole handbag.

Anyway, it makes for a lot of small bits of change floating around my life.

I agree its hard to get rid of it, I refuse to waste money on the coin machines and since my credit union stopped taking it my only other option is the bank, which isnt easy as I work office hours.


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## Brendan Burgess (4 Mar 2010)

I spend the silver normally - i.e. €1 and €2


I separate the "bronze" i.e. 10cents, 20cents and 50cents and keep some in the car and some in an ashtray by the door. I spend this in the shops.

I have accumulated the "copper" for a few years.

It would be a good idea for a charity to send a van around to collect it. I would give all the copper and most of the bronze. 

They could employ volunteers to bag it.

Brendan


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## JoeB (4 Mar 2010)

or even splash out on a machine, he he, if they have van loads!

Good idea though, I'd also give all my brown coins, and the 10s and 20s, maybe not the 50's though...

I use my money in parking meters, or for bus fare the odd time, and bag the rest and lodge it on the bank.. the coppers just build up for ever...


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## z107 (4 Mar 2010)

Whenever I think of it, I generally put the brown coins into the poor box when I get them. More and more I pay for stuff with a credit or debit card. I find it easier than cash and I don't spend as much. Cash in my wallet is as good as gone.

Would people moving away from cash have any impact on your business plan?



> Thanks for all of this.
> 
> There are approximately 1.25 million households in the country.
> I would estimate that each would have at least €50 in coins lying around.
> ...


What about all those coins in charity collection containers. How frequently are they typically emptied? would you classify these as being out of circulation? There might also be coins that end up in landfill or are permanently destroyed or lost. Supermarkets will also keep a pretty constant float of coins in each till. In effect, these are out of circulation, kind of.



> €73 million in hoarded coin in the state, or €58 per household.
> 
> Bearing in mind tourism, the Euro and other factors, would the forum say that this is a logical conclusion?


€58/household certainly sounds like the right order of magnitude to me.


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## bullworth (5 Mar 2010)

By concidence I was counting and bagging coins yesterday. I have about 58 euro exactly as predicted in a previous post.

It's useful sometimes have to have change lying around for bus fare especially or for small items like  a litre of milk but a lot of this is 1 and 2 cent coins. I usually find a way to make a dent in the coin jar but the one  and 2 cent pieces are the hardest to get rid of . I'd feel kind of stupid holding up the queue if I paid for some big purchase with a zillion 1 and 2 cent coins.



truthseeker said:


> Its a pain for me to go to the bank though because I work 9-5 Mon-Fri so I way preferred when I could lodge it in the Credit Union.



The Permanent tsb is open on Saturdays. Do they not take bagged coins ?


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## truthseeker (5 Mar 2010)

bullworth said:


> The Permanent tsb is open on Saturdays. Do they not take bagged coins ?


 
I dont know, must check it out, I dont know if you can do a coin exchange there - as opposed to lodging to an account.

Anyone else know?


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## Featherhead (5 Mar 2010)

I have a coin jar and anything under two euro goes into it. Counted it last week and between me and my boyfriend we had over two hundred euro in it. We count it once or twice a year and lodge it into the bank. 

I refuse to use those coin counting machines the 10% - 20% that they take off the top is a joke! It really annoys me how difficult banks and credit unions make it to give back coins after all money is money and surely getting more back means they have to issue less?!

I also have a little piggy bank in work that I throw change into and we use it or the vending machine in here its handy if you have no coins as there is always some there. I also keep some in the car for car parks / parking meters 

Great idea about the charity thing I woukd happily give all the coppers away if they had a collection!


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## JoeB (5 Mar 2010)

I'd imagine the Central Bank will take any amount of coinage from you.

Normal banks or credit unions should take any amount of correctly bagged coins.

Otherwise they probably only have to take a maximum amount, in terms of numbers of coins, not sure exactly but I think it's about 50 coins per denomination, or maybe 50 coins of any type in a single transaction.

I don't think any retailers will allow you to settle large purchases using 1c and 2c coins... they only have to take a maximum of 50, or some maximum...


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## truthseeker (5 Mar 2010)

Joe, the point I was making was that although there are places that WILL take the bagged coins (my own bank for example) - if you work office hours you may not be able to get to a bank without taking time off work.

My credit union will not take coins. Not for a long time now. They claim they have 'facility' to take coins.


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## JoeB (5 Mar 2010)

There must be more to it... is it that they won't take bagged coins, or large quantities?

What if you walk in with 5 x 2 Euro, and attempt to lodge 10 Euro, do they refuse?

Or if you want to lodge 12 Euro.. they must take a coin for the 2 Euro.. unless they insist on giving change.

It might not be legal for them to refuse coins, they are legal tender, in certain quantities anyway..


The success or otherwise of the coin conting machines, that take 10% to 20% is probably down to the difficulty people have in getting rid of coins. 

Do banks have large collection boxes for coins for charity in their branches?..


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## truthseeker (5 Mar 2010)

JoeBallantin said:


> There must be more to it... is it that they won't take bagged coins, or large quantities?


 
They have told me, on the phone and in person - they wont take bagged coins.



JoeBallantin said:


> What if you walk in with 5 x 2 Euro, and attempt to lodge 10 Euro, do they refuse?


 
Yes they refuse.



JoeBallantin said:


> Or if you want to lodge 12 Euro.. they must take a coin for the 2 Euro.. unless they insist on giving change.


 
Ive never tried that, I must check next time if thats possible.



JoeBallantin said:


> It might not be legal for them to refuse coins, they are legal tender, in certain quantities anyway..


 
But is legal tender not in terms of buying something as opposed to lodging and saving your own money - there is no 'transaction' as such with a credit union, you just give them your money to mind as it were.


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## gipimann (5 Mar 2010)

Perhaps the reason that your Credit Union stopped taking in coins is the same one that I was given by EBS staff when I enquired there recently - they are charged when they bring coin to the bank, so can't afford the overhead of taking in coins.

If someone brings in more coin than the local branch could use or reasonably hold on site, it costs them to exchange it.

I did see someone handing coin into the PTSB when I was there earlier this week, but I didn't spot whether it was a lodgement or an exchange for notes.


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## JoeB (5 Mar 2010)

truthseeker said:


> But is legal tender not in terms of buying something as opposed to lodging and saving your own money - there is no 'transaction' as such with a credit union, you just give them your money to mind as it were.



Hmmmm... some issues here. You could be correct  about the legal tender thing, and that lodging money to a bank or credit union is not considered a transaction. But it's definitely not a 'custodial' arrangement, in that when you withdraw money you don't get the same notes and coins you lodged, you get different ones.. this may seem a small distinction, but recently I bought allocated gold, and that is held under a true custodial arrangement, (or a 'bailment').. where my gold has my name on it, and if I withdraw it I get my specific piece of gold,.. when you lodge money to a bank they are basically committing to owing you the money, but if they go bust you must wait in line, with other creditors, whereas if my gold custodian goes bust, the gold is mine, and it isn't available to be used for other creditors, it doesn't appear in the books or balance sheet of the custodian, and I am guaranteed to get it all back,.. similar to putting cash into a safe deposit box. (If the credit union had safe deposit boxes you would be allowed to put coins in..)

So, in the end, a bank or credit union lodgement may be considered a transaction, and may be subject to the legal tender rules..

I find that companies often break the law, including banks and other organisations that people may assume would never break the law, but it does happen,... and if you complained it may be that the credit union would have to change their policy nationwide.


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## dontaskme (5 Mar 2010)

afaik businesses dont have to take coins. Some don't take 200 euro notes, but I guess these days they're not so picky. In legal terms you're probably making an offer to buy something but the retailer does not accept unless he sees the money he wants and there has to be offer and acceptance for a contract to be valid.


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## bullworth (5 Mar 2010)

JoeBallantin said:


> The success or otherwise of the coin conting machines, that take 10% to 20% is probably down to the difficulty people have in getting rid of coins.
> 
> Do banks have large collection boxes for coins for charity in their branches?..



I dont' see why in these days where almost everything can be automated including some supermarket checkouts that banks cant have those machines in the lobby. You could drops the coins in  , type in your account number , get a receipt and you've made a lodgement . It would probably cut down on  staffing and overhead costs too while freeing up the brains of staff whos talents would be wasted processing tedious and non complex task like this. Machines should be doing all the monkey work for us. As I have experienced different attitudes in the same banks when I brought in coins before I suspect some bank staff refuse to take coinage because they dont' like the monkey work involved in checking  large quantities of coin bags.


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## JoeB (5 Mar 2010)

From Wikipedia..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_tender#Republic_of_Ireland



			
				Wiki said:
			
		

> Republic of Ireland
> See also: Coinage of the Republic of Ireland
> 
> According to the Economic and Monetary Union Act, 1998 of the Republic of Ireland which replaced the legal tender provisions that had been re-enacted in Irish legislation from previous British enactments, *No person*, other than the Central Bank of Ireland and such persons as may be designated by the Minister by order, *shall be obliged to accept more than 50 coins denominated in euro or in cent in any single transaction.*




Another interesting point on that page is that retailers can refuse large notes, as legal tender can be refused in the payment of a debt which is not yet owed, however a restaurant which asks for payment at the end of a meal (and therefore taxi drivers! maybe), must accept any legal tender, as it must be accepted for all debts already owed. I made up the bit about the taxi drivers.. but it would seem to be true, unless they are specifically exempted somehow...


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## Ardiff (5 Mar 2010)

bullworth said:


> I dont' see why in these days where almost everything can be automated including some supermarket checkouts that banks cant have those machines in the lobby. You could drops the coins in  , type in your account number , get a receipt and you've made a lodgement . It would probably cut down on  staffing and overhead costs too while freeing up the brains of staff whos talents would be wasted processing tedious and non complex task like this. Machines should be doing all the monkey work for us. As I have experienced different attitudes in the same banks when I brought in coins before I suspect some bank staff refuse to take coinage because they dont' like the monkey work involved in checking  large quantities of coin bags.




Certain Commerce Banks (www.commercebank.com) in the States have this facility already.
In fact they use this machine.
[broken link removed]

The question really is whether the banks would actually lose money installing these machines and whether the state could be bothered recouping €20 million back into the system which is as good as you could expect. Or indeed would the banks pull in a couple of million for maybe million outlay, small beer to them of course, but it would be a great service, essentially giving every household a little bonus every now and again.
Unless of course, there is an economic point in having dead money "out there" which is beyond my ken, but not my imagination.

Thanks all for your help and suggestions, interesting debate.


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## Ardiff (6 Mar 2010)

[broken link removed]
Look what I found


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## Protocol (13 Mar 2010)

*Why do people hoard so much coins?*

*Why not simply spend it?*

Do you all just hand in notes when purchasing?

Shops will be grateful for the coins.

I give 5.30 for my 4.80 dinner, as I know the cashier is short of 20c coins.

I give 3.90 or 4.90 or 5.90 for the pint of stout (3.90).

I have 1.80 ready for the Irish Times.

I carry 1c and 2c in my back pocket, 5c, 10c, 20c in my front pocket to all shops, so if the supermarket bill is 27.63, I usually have the 63c.


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## RonanC (15 Mar 2010)

Life's too short to be worrying about carrying the correct amount of change in your pockets to pay for something


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## JoeB (15 Mar 2010)

and too short to be standing behind someone counting out the pennies.. 27, 28, 29.. ...30, 31... drives you mad..


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## Capt. Beaky (21 Mar 2010)

becky said:


> I seem to be one of the few people who spends all my money. I use my coins for my coffee in the morning. I will give €50.73 for a bill of €30.73. .............


Jeez Becks. You need to hold back or you'll never get off the ground. A €20 tip on every €30.73. I mean, it's nice to be nice but this would be termed profligacy by the man sitting behind your head as you're stretched out on the couch


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## truthseeker (22 Mar 2010)

gipimann said:


> Perhaps the reason that your Credit Union stopped taking in coins is the same one that I was given by EBS staff when I enquired there recently - they are charged when they bring coin to the bank, so can't afford the overhead of taking in coins.


 
Yes - went to local EBS on saturday to enquire about opening a savings account - asked would they take bagged coins (they open saturday mornings so itd be handy for me). Was told no, they dont have facilities to weigh coins and will not accept more than a reasonable amount that can be counted by hand at the counter - they girl suggested 40 euro as a reasonable amount (when I pointed out thata  bag of 2 euro coins contained 50 euro she said that 'maybe' thatd be ok).
I didnt open the account. My quest to lodge my bagged coins outside of standard bank opening hours continues.


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## Johnboy45 (24 Mar 2010)

I lodged 30euro in bagged coins in local credit union this morning - its part of the 480e which I counted out over the last few weeks.  They'll said they'd take 30e a day from me but it has to be lodged to account.  So they lodge it and then I withdraw it straight away .  Opens 2 late evenings a week so handy if you are working 9-5 hours.


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## truthseeker (25 Mar 2010)

Johnboy45 - different credit unions have different rules, unfortunately mine does not allow lodgement of coinage at all.


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## Caveat (26 Mar 2010)

Like others, I honestly don't understand this accumulation of coins. 

As soon as the coin purse bit of my wallet starts to bulge even slightly I just spend the coins. Loads of ways to do so - sweets, parking meters, tolls, petrol etc etc It's never really a problem.

I don't get it


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## NorfBank (26 Mar 2010)

Coins accumulate during the year but end up in the Trocaire box around this  time  - thought that's why it was invented


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## crossmolad (6 May 2010)

have since 2002 a old beer barrel and did dump all the coppers in it
Barrel is almost full now
question now is witch bank will take and count it for us when its full??


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## beaches (2 Jun 2010)

hi all

we put most our change into a container at home and when its full i bring it to my local PTSB and lodge it into my visa account. when the container is full there can be anything up to €800 in there and the PTSB has never had a problem taking this off me. although sometimes my arms are hanging off when i get into the branch. i always try to pick a quiet time to go in as would hate to see a queue forming behind me whilst they weigh all the bags.
then i can go and buy something nice and pay for it on the cc.

forget them coin machines that charge commission... just count it out and get it bagged.

i also tend to carry a lot of €1 and €2 euros around in my bag and i find that when a shop sees you have change they want it all... found this mostly with clothes shops..

all the kids in this house also seem to collect money boxes and have a few bob in all them so i would imagine that at any given moment there could be €500 in coins floating around the house.


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