# How much expect to pay in accountancy fees for a small ltd co turnover <€100k?



## Bedlam (25 May 2007)

How much should one expect to pay in fees for a small limited company with turnover of under €100,000 per annum?

Bedlam


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## daveccork (25 May 2007)

*Re: Accountancy Fees*

it will depend on the level of transactions and the complexity of the work involved. 

As turnover < €100,000 then the company *should* be audit exempt (criteria must be met e.g. cro returns are filed on time and that the are no requirements / requests that the company is audited). The audit exemption would result in a big cost saving so be sure you request this when getting a quote. I have seen instances of companies being audited when there is no need!!

Other factors which determine price would be whether the company or the accountant would be fulfilling filing obligations (tax and company secretarial).

difficult to give an a price without know the specifics - perhaps post more info.


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## BOC_ARDEE (26 May 2007)

*Re: Accountancy Fees*

I pay around €150 a month. Not a whole pile of transactions though. Worth noting that 100% of accountancy fees can be written off as an expense at the end of the tax year, so its not like you are actually paying for it!!..


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## Chap1 (26 May 2007)

*Re: Accountancy Fees*

Under 600 Euro definitiely, go for under 400.


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## Joe1234 (27 May 2007)

*Re: Accountancy Fees*



Chap1 said:


> Under 600 Euro definitiely, go for under 400.



For a small limited company?  I would say anyone would find it difficult to get to get a quote for under 1200 -1500.  There is a lot more work involved in preparing company, even if the company is audit exempt.

As previous posters have stated, it could depend on the level of transactions.  The sales of 100k could be 10 invoices of 10k each, or 100 invoices of 1k each.


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## dam099 (27 May 2007)

*Re: Accountancy Fees*



BOC_ARDEE said:


> I pay around €150 a month. Not a whole pile of transactions though. Worth noting that 100% of accountancy fees can be written off as an expense at the end of the tax year, so its not like you are actually paying for it!!..


 
They are written off against your taxable income not the taxes so you are paying for them just at a reduced rate (100% less your marginal tax rate).


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## ATracey (27 May 2007)

Problem here is.....you get what you pay for!
If you are €100/€150 a month you're getting one to two hours of high quality end labour...best option is to check around...this is one area where cheaper is not always better....I'd look for three quotes and want contact with similar clients that have used them for two to three years...
best of luck!


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## Kiddo (27 May 2007)

*Re: How much expect to pay in accountancy fees for a small ltd co turnover <€100k?*

Accountancy fees are charged on a time basis. So the fee will depend on the volume of transactions and also the quality of the information you give. Keeping all your bank statements, sales and purchase invoices, supplier statements, cheque stubs etc neatly filed will help somewhat and a good accountant should be able to give you guidelines for keeping your books, even if these are simple excel sheets, it should make preparing your accounts a lot simpler and quicker.

Another thing to take into consideration when getting quotes is the other services you may require. I've seen it happen so many times where clients are given quotes for the accounts preparation but don't realise that Corporation tax returns, company office returns, Paye/Prsi & Vat returns are all extra...so make sure these are costed too.

Also be aware that some practices will quote low to get your business. IMO its better to get  a recommendation from friends/family/business contacts than cold calling


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## Graham_07 (28 May 2007)

*Re: Accountancy Fees*



Chap1 said:


> Under 600 Euro definitiely, go for under 400.


 
You will NOT get a professionally qualified, regulated, insured accountant for do exempt company accounts/CT/CRO work for €400. Be realistic.


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## ubiquitous (28 May 2007)

*Re: How much expect to pay in accountancy fees for a small ltd co turnover <€100k?*



Kiddo said:


> I've seen it happen so many times where clients are given quotes for the accounts preparation but don't realise that Corporation tax returns, company office returns, Paye/Prsi & Vat returns are all extra...so make sure these are costed too.



The corollary of this is the situation where the client says that they will look after Paye/Prsi & Vat returns themselves and do so, only to make an absolute hames of it, leaving it impossible for the accountants to prepare the accounts and CT & CRO returns for the originally quoted fee, apart altogether from the cost of sorting out the mess with the Revenue, dealing with tax demands and keeping audit inspectors and sheriffs at bay. The same applies where mistakes are made in the formation of limited companies - most commonly the failure to file the company's first annual CRO return six months after incorporation.

For this and other reasons, relying on quotes can be pointless and counter-productive when selecting an accountant. As mentioned above, recommendations from friends/family/business contacts are usually much more reliable, from both the viewpoint of the client and the accountant. 

Remember, from the accountant's perspective, they usually have no idea whom they are dealing with when asked for a quote by a potential new client. It can be difficult at first glance to gauge whether the new client is trustworthy and likely to pay their bills (although in fairness most people are), and whether the books and records are up to the expected standard. On the basis that a certain percentage of new clients will either fail to pay their bills or have poor records, it is difficult for the accountant to prepare an advance fixed-fee quote without including an extra contingency for these risks. 

When an existing client of a firm recommends the firm to a new client, the recommendation usually reassures the firm that the new client is as equally genuine as their existing client. Many established firms, who are in the happy position of being able to pick and choose their clients, will only take on new clients if they are recommended by an existing client.


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## simplyjoe (29 May 2007)

*Re: How much expect to pay in accountancy fees for a small ltd co turnover <€100k?*

Ubiq is right. Very hard to quote but I will have a crack. Assuming 10 sales per month and 30 purchase invoices per month.From good records with client preparing VAT & PAYE returns. Assuming audit exempt and accountant doing accounts AR and corp tax - €1,200 per annum plus VAT    -   Same as above poor books €1,600 per annum   -   Doing VAT, PAYE, Corp tax, A Return €2,000 plus VAT    -   As above not audit exempt €3,000 plus VAT (this should not happen!)


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## ND 1978 (31 Jul 2007)

*Re: How much expect to pay in accountancy fees for a small ltd co turnover <€100k?*

Hi everyone

I'd be grateful for an opinion on this:

I'm ACA, and run a small record company in spare time. Audit exempt, Only six purchase invoices in current y/e! 

I do: PAYE/VAT returns, and hand over a good set of mgt accounts to them. (they've yet to make any changes).

My Accountants do: Prepare annual a/cs, Filed Accounts for CRO, B1, CT1, and minutes for new director 

Am I being overcharged, as follows?


P/e 31/12/05 - 18 months - charged 700 euro plus VAT
Y/e 31/12/06 - 12 months - charged 900 euro plus VAT (almost a 30% increase). This is big money for us!

I'd be very grateful for a 2nd opinion, thanks in advance.


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## capall (31 Jul 2007)

*Re: How much expect to pay in accountancy fees for a small ltd co turnover <€100k?*

The Cro return is easy ,you could do it yourself. Once you have the template for one years return it would be easy to resubmit it in the following years ,updating the figures. There are very few figures in the cro return if you are audit exempt 

Something like a cro return it can actually be less hassle doing it yourself then toing  and froing and signing


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## Joe1234 (31 Jul 2007)

*Re: How much expect to pay in accountancy fees for a small ltd co turnover <€100k?*



capall said:


> There are very few figures in the cro return if you are audit exempt



If you are referring to the B1, there is really no difference between a B1 for an audit exempt company and an audit company - aapart from ticking a box to state that the company is availing of the audit exemption.


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## command (1 Aug 2007)

you can now file the annual return online with the cro. So long as you have not made any changes to the company during the year you will have very little to do.


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## rabbit (1 Aug 2007)

I always feel ripped off by my accountant, but when I look at his colleagues in his " competitors" offices I see some of them too having top of the range 07 cars, holidays homes worth 500k, etc etc.   Pity there was not a bit of competition between them.


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## sinbadsailor (2 Aug 2007)

*Re: How much expect to pay in accountancy fees for a small ltd co turnover <€100k?*

'...don't use home software, it's not worth the risk. Why don't you let us do it for you for a 'small' fee, to make sure all your stuff is in order...'

Trouble is that the temp or new college graduate actually working on your books is using the same software package as you would.

For straightforward, say one man companies with a monthly invoice and a few expenses, it is childsplay for the accountant to take care of them....the prices are too high, and only serve to give an aura of quality.

In our fair country these days, you only get quality and service if you pay for it, that's what we are told anyhows.

I do mine myself during the year, probably make some small mistakes, but then at least the accountant is 'earning' their fixed fee for fixing it and setting me right come end of year time.

Oh and as the previous poster mentioned, the accountant that met me in the beginning and gave all the smiles and personal service, is now largely uncontactable (usually out of the country) and I have to deal with her new associate, who is 8 years my junior, fresh out of college.

Money for cheese guys, money for cheese!


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## command (2 Aug 2007)

for a small one man company, maybe with one or two employees you should pay no more than €1,500 per year to have everything done. That includes your accountant holding your hand advising on mortgages, pensions, bank loans etc. 

My practice charge a flat fee to everyone and there is no "clock" running every time you call. It would include taking your invoices every two months preparing your vat, preparing you company accounts, annual return and your own tax return as the director. We only deal with small companies and sole traders everyone pays the same fee so no client is more important than another. The system seems to work and new start up businesses in particular seem satisfied with it. 

It doesn't suit everyone but there are a few accountants out there who do it, some do it online. 

In terms of quaity of work form an accoutant for a small company quality of work shouldn't come into it. Accounts are obliged by their professional bodies to maintain a certain level of competence and to keep up to date with legislation. If youer business is small you will not need deamatic tax advice or have to get into advanced accounting treatment arguments so the work of all accountants is the same for small businesses.


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## Graham_07 (2 Aug 2007)

*Re: How much expect to pay in accountancy fees for a small ltd co turnover <€100k?*



rabbit said:


> I always feel ripped off by my accountant, but when I look at his colleagues in his " competitors" offices I see some of them too having top of the range 07 cars, holidays homes worth 500k, etc etc. Pity there was not a bit of competition between them.


 
As with any service, if one is dissatisfied then why continue to stay and moan about being "ripped off". If you're not happy then move. There are plenty of accountants out there. The smaller firm or sole-practitioner, while maintaining the same level of standards and professionalism as the larger practices may have lower overhead and consequently lower charge out rates. I'm sure that if your accountant realised your dissatisfaction then some accommodation could be made to your mutual benefit and if not, then move. 

Unfortunately, a lot of people generally do not seem to value the cost of a service, whether it be accountancy, legal, IT or other "knowledge based" service to the same value as hard goods. A €2,000 wide screen TV may be seen as better value than the 16 or so pages of financial statements you get along with the assistance in keeping one on the right side of the multitude of laws which Irish businesses have to contend with. 

I also, adopt a policy of an all inclusive fee for work done for the year. ( although on an individual client basis rather than like Command's system ) I'd hate a client to be afraid to ring me on something important because he/she was afraid of being charged for the call and then discover later that a few minutes on the phone could have saved them grief.


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## capall (2 Aug 2007)

*Re: How much expect to pay in accountancy fees for a small ltd co turnover <€100k?*

I'm surprised at some of the comments about professional fees,when you think what you are asked to fork out for any job like tiling,plumbing,gutters etc etc and they are ususally looking for cash in hand  

In recent years your average plumber has been making more than your average accountant and they have to put up with less crap(of the verbal kind)


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## zappb (2 Aug 2007)

~Yea Capall your right, its shocking how little accounting is valued by people...

Do you think that's the accountants fault (for not communicating their value?) or is it just penny pinching moaners?

"oh that's too dear, bloody rip off!"


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## rabbit (2 Aug 2007)

*Re: How much expect to pay in accountancy fees for a small ltd co turnover <€100k?*



capall said:


> In recent years your average plumber has been making more than your average accountant and they have to put up with less crap(of the verbal kind)


 
Even if that were true, two wrongs do not make a right.

I would love to find an accountant who only charged as much as a tradesperson. The accountants I know are more interested in their investment property portfolios, their detached luxury holiday homes, their 07  five-series and audi A6's etc etc.  I would not mind if they done their job as quickly or efficiently as they are supposed to.


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## boots (2 Aug 2007)

Can you do it all yourself?
I have started working as a contract employee and need to set up a company etc, income will be less than 100k p.a.
I was wondering is it a statutory requirement that your tax return is filed by a registered accountant?
I worked for a few months in 2006 as a sole trader and did everything myself ( after one hour with a semi retired former tax inspector ). I will probably have 10 invoices in the year and would be quite comfortable doing VAT returns, computing my tax liabilities etc.

I don't mind paying someone if it has to be done but I am a firm believer in educating yourself, especially when it comes to your money.
Thanks
boots


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## Joe1234 (3 Aug 2007)

*Re: How much expect to pay in accountancy fees for a small ltd co turnover <€100k?*



boots said:


> I was wondering is it a statutory requirement that your tax return is filed by a registered accountant?



I don't think so.


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## Graham_07 (3 Aug 2007)

*Re: How much expect to pay in accountancy fees for a small ltd co turnover <€100k?*



rabbit said:


> The accountants I know are more interested in their investment property portfolios, their detached luxury holiday homes, their 07 five-series and audi A6's etc etc.


 
Perhaps you need to check out the local accountancy firms and if you find an accountant leaving his office in a 1988 Skoda Octavia, wearing Dunnes' best and crouching down when he passes the bank managers window then maybe he's the man for you.  Anyways, its Friday, gotta polish the Bugatti, get the learjet fuelled up and head off to the villa in Nice, catch y'all Tuesday.


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## capall (3 Aug 2007)

*Re: How much expect to pay in accountancy fees for a small ltd co turnover <€100k?*



boots said:


> Can you do it all yourself?
> I have started working as a contract employee and need to set up a company etc, income will be less than 100k p.a.
> I was wondering is it a statutory requirement that your tax return is filed by a registered accountant?
> I worked for a few months in 2006 as a sole trader and did everything myself ( after one hour with a semi retired former tax inspector ). I will probably have 10 invoices in the year and would be quite comfortable doing VAT returns, computing my tax liabilities etc.
> ...


 
You will be a company director so you will be doing Vat,paye,corporation tax returns,personal tax return and Cro
There is nothing to these companies except understanding what expenses you can claim,most one man companies clear the P&L to zero by salary or pension payments

It is hard to judge how easy or hard this is for someone,if you have no finance background ,no knowledge or interest in tax  then I wouldn't recommend the DIY option. 
Most people in one man companies pay under 5K a year for accountancy/Tax fees and it is a tax deductible expense and for a turnover of 100k can be justified I think. 
You could consider getting everything professionally done one year and then continue yourself in future years ,however most people I find would rather chew their arm off then do this kind of work when you can pay to get it done


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## harvey (7 Aug 2007)

*Re: How much expect to pay in accountancy fees for a small ltd co turnover <€100k?*

I know an accountant who used to drive round the city (a small one at that) in a 5 year old middle of the road car eventhough he was a multi millionaire from property. The accountancy job just gave him some cash to start him off. He then became so wealthy that he bought a new car but he bought it second hand. I think there is a lot of similarity between accountants, solicitors, insurance brokers, mortgage brokers and engineers where once their practices get to a particular size they farm the business out to juniors. A lot of them will be at the initial consultation to know what work is required and then get juniors to do the work and then they are there again at the "closing" to gain all the kudos. Sometimes it can be beneficial dealing with the sole trader rather than the increasingly larger firm which can charge more but has more areas of expertise.


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## command (7 Aug 2007)

Tax in Ireland is filed under the self assessment system. Whether you use an accountant to prepare you tax return or not the obligation to file it rest with the individual/company. If you accountant fro any reason does not file the return then you have no comeback against him. All you can do is report him to his professional body fro mis conduct. 

So in answer to the quation there is a legal obligation on you to file your taxes, that you chose to use and accountant to prepare that return for you is up to yourself. 

If you decided to do it yourself then the main areas you would need to look at would be motoring and travel expenses, entertainment (only staff entertainment is allowable) depreciation v capital allowances. 

There is no small amount of guides and information leaflets on the revenue website to explain the treatment of them all.


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