# Are Council responsible if you skid on black ice and road is not gritted



## cats_dlk (21 Jan 2010)

Does anyone have any information on the above. 

I crashed my car at the w/e after skidding on black ice, I lost control and crashed into a tree.  My car is now a write off and my insurance premiums are going to go through the roof.

As a result I was wondering do the council have any responsibility in this case as the road was not gritted?


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## Pique318 (21 Jan 2010)

Why should they ? YOU were driving, YOU lost control, YOU crashed. No-one else is at fault. Take some responsibility for your own actions.


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## cats_dlk (21 Jan 2010)

I was driving at 9:30 in the morning well within the speed limit.  The temperature on my car said it was 4.5 degrees, so I would have assumed the roads were clear.

I am not asking you for your OPINION, I am asking for information on whether the council have a responsibility for gritting the road or not.  I have heard that they do.  

I lost control because there was black ice on the road.

I lost control because the road had black ice


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## nai (21 Jan 2010)

I'm with Pique on this one - the council do not have a legal responsibility in this instance - how could u expect them to grit every square inch of roadway in the country ?

you say you were driving within the speed limit - that's a maximum speed - your actual speed should be dictated by conditions, which in this case you completely misread. Your fault I'm afraid.


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## sam h (21 Jan 2010)

Have to say, I agree also, I can not see how the council could be liable.

It is up to driver to drive at a speed appropriate to the road conditions.  Car temperature gauges are a guide and I would swear by them, they certain do not tell you what condition the road is in.  Plus I think an increase in temp can remove some of the slushier stuff, thereby exposing the more dangerous compacted ice underneath.  

There were cases of roads being gritted and icing over a few hours later.


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## Latrade (21 Jan 2010)

I think the council responsibility has been covered on many threads and in the media of late.

However, before judging the individual too harshly, while I don't think it's reasonable to immediately want compensation from the council, black ice doesn't exactly have a big warning sign with flashing lights above it.

Unless there were warnings in the media, it can be difficult to judge where or when black ice will occur. Large parts of a road can be fine and completely ice free and the OP may have been driving to the conditions as far as they were aware. 

To me it sounds like an unfortunate accident, no fault on the OP, but also within the bounds of reasonability, no fault on the council. Sometimes and accident is just an accident.


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## cats_dlk (21 Jan 2010)

I said WELL within the speed limit, which means I was driving way less than the speed limit.  Also you say it should be dictated by conditions, the conditions were it was a sunny morning, temperature was 4.5 degrees, it was a main road so the last thing I was expecting was black ice. 

Again I am asking for information on whether you know for a fact if the council have responsibility or not, not your own personal opinion.


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## nai (21 Jan 2010)

cats_dlk said:


> I said WELL within the speed limit, which means I was driving way less than the speed limit.  Also you say it should be dictated by conditions, the conditions were it was a sunny morning, temperature was 4.5 degrees, it was a main road so the last thing I was expecting was black ice.
> 
> Again I am asking for information on whether you know for a fact if the council have responsibility or not, not your own personal opinion.



just a couple of points on this - 

1. If you want facts you'll have to get your solicitor involved and work out an interpretation of all of the various Road Traffic Acts and bye-laws, take a sample case before the courts and come back to us.
This is a discussion forum where the members provide OPINIONS, not facts.

2. Did this accident occur at any stage during the recent (within past 4 weeks) cold spell ? If so you mustn't have heard all of the traffic warnings in relation to bad conditions, black ice etc.

3. Have you calibrated the thermometer in your car ? Does it measure ground temperature or air temperature ? Black ice sits on the road surface so is directly affected by ground temperature, air temp less so.

4. The fact that it was a main road (presumably designated R or N) matters not one bit in relation to whether black ice will occur on it or not. In relatio n to whether it should have been gritted - refer to 1 above.

5. If you do win your case against the councils can you also ask if your logic applies to standing water, loose gravel etc.


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## jambo.ie (21 Jan 2010)

cats_dlk said:


> I was driving at 9:30 in the morning well within the speed limit.  The temperature on my car said it was 4.5 degrees, so I would have assumed the roads were clear.


The speed limit is a maximum not a target. Speeding is travelling at an excessive speed taking into account the prevailing conditions. It's your responsibility to drive at a speed at which you can safely stop within the distance you can see to be clear. You haven't a leg to stand on legally I'm afraid.


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## cats_dlk (21 Jan 2010)

Ok. Thanks for your replies.  Will close this post now.


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## AlbacoreA (21 Jan 2010)

You can't predict black ice, unless its a known accident spot. So just bad luck. 

Anyway its what your insurance is for. Be happy you're ok. So thats good luck.


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## Bronte (21 Jan 2010)

cats_dlk said:


> To AlbacoreA, mathepac, LS400 and Latrade thank you for your constructive posts.
> 
> Can the moderator please close this post now.


 
I think you can close it down yourself, but I don't know how you do.  
I've sent a PM to the mods to close the thread for you.

You've had a bad start on AAM, don't let that put you off. I think it was because there is another thread running where people were sueing people left right and center over nothing and there have been a lot of posts about people slipping on ice and wanting to sue the houseowner's etc.


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## sam h (21 Jan 2010)

LS400 said:


> Just before you close the post
> I dont think I have ever come across such a bunch folks who are up their own rear end.
> 
> The person who has a few posts to their name asked a question, nothing more nothing less, and they get that crap.
> I dont blame you wanting to close it.


 
I disagree - the OP asked a question and was not happy with the answer as they did not get the exact legal response they wanted to hear.  The OP does not seem to take any level of responsibilty for what happened - they were the one driving the car.


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## Frank (21 Jan 2010)

This was covered on the radio on a few shows.

The council can not be held responsible for an accident you have if you slip on a foot path or skid on a road because they have not gritted.

The impression I got it was specifically written that way in Irish law.

So no OP cannot sue the council.


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## AlbacoreA (21 Jan 2010)

I heard they are only liable if they do a repair badly. Not for a pothole itself. I assume ice is the same.


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## cats_dlk (21 Jan 2010)

This is absolutely ridiculous, this is the first time I have ever used this.  I asked a simple question.  I am not in the habit of sueing people left, right and centre, I have never sued in my life.  I am a qualifed, experienced driver, who had a very scary experience, I am not looking for sympathy, but having said that I am not looking to be patronised or condescended to either.  I am well aware of the bad weather over the past few weeks, I travel over 100 miles to work by car every day.

However, I do expect the main roads to be gritted when it is a case that they are extremely dangerous.  I do appreciate that not every road in the country can be gritted, but as I said I only asked a simple question.  

So can we just leave it there please.  

Thanks.


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## AlbacoreA (21 Jan 2010)

Cats, in my opinion, its good practice to ignore anything thats not relevant. 

Black ice is very difficulty to see and predict. Especially in and after extraordinary conditions. Pedestrians fall on the stuff at walking pace.


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## cats_dlk (21 Jan 2010)

Yeah, you are right. 

The council aren't responsible.  It was just bad luck with the accident, but good luck that I wasn't injured.


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## GarBow (21 Jan 2010)

jambo.ie said:


> The speed limit is a maximum not a target.


 
Possibly the most annoying and abused Cleché in any driving discussion.


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## Leo (21 Jan 2010)

cats_dlk said:


> Can the moderator please close this post now.


 
Done


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