# Leaky roof - builders not responding



## FonaFona (16 Sep 2020)

Looking for advice on whether to chase builder through legal system or suck up the cost to get another roofer to do repairs.

Facts:
Got extension on house along with gutting original house, remodelling and insulating/rewire  - moved into in June 2016. It’s a lean-to for want of a better description.
Architect employed to design and see project to sign off.

Roof leaked in several places - on snag list. Fixed but leaked again x 3. Builder came back and “fixed” each time. Didn’t leak for 6 months or so and final payment made to builder less 1k as other minor snags outstanding.

Builder never seen or heard from again, despite attempts to make contact by phone, email, text.

Builder is still in business. 

Roof leaked again. To be clear - it doesn’t always leak when it rains as it is dependent on wind conditions and directions.

Architect proposed another builder. He tried his best but finally said the lead, tiles and velux roof lights do not have adequate weather coverage for the low pitch of the roof. Velux incorrectly installed - sitting on top of felt and not below it, did not use a sealed velux flashing kit. Lead flashing not correctly installed where new roof meets existing building.

I engaged another roofer; same report.

Estimated repair costs from one roofer is currently circa 6.5K to 10K to fix.

This issue is one of many I was left with but this is by far the most costly one (at least that I know about so far).

As per top of post: is there REALLY any point in chasing the builder down the legal avenue or is it throwing good money after bad? Would it be worth one letter sent off to see what happens? Or should I cut and run now and just proceed with another roofer?

Have I other options? As far as I understand it, insurance won’t cover it so I haven’t engaged with insurance company at all.

FYI: I have evidence of emails, texts when trying to get builder to engage. I have the signed contract with builder. I have the final detailed costings breakdown.


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## LS400 (16 Sep 2020)

FonaFona said:


> Or should I cut and run now and just proceed with another roofer?



Absolutely,
Lets be real here, you don`t want them anywhere near your property now that your aware of their lack of building skills. You need to do a financial damage limitation exercise. Spend the money now (difficult as it is) on rectifying the situation as it sounds like the longer it goes on the more expensive it will cost to rectify. You know you have a problem, it wont go-away.

Anything below the highest repair figure of €10k would be a bonus.

I certainly would do everything possible to recover some or all of the costs, but only you would have an idea of the size on the firm and if they are worth chasing down for some recourse.


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## twofor1 (16 Sep 2020)

FonaFona said:


> Facts:
> 
> Architect employed to design and see project to sign off.
> 
> ...


Is there a case against the architect here for signing off on such shoddy workmanship  ?

Why did the architect not see all the above and tell the builder to fix same before signing off, allowing you to pay the builder  ?


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## Leo (16 Sep 2020)

twofor1 said:


> Is there a case against the architect here for signing off on such shoddy workmanship ?



All depends on the contract the architect was engaged on. Most people do not opt for full supervision and sign-off of details like this because they feel it's too expensive. It requires a lot of site visits to witness all the required detail before it ends up enclosed.


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## FonaFona (16 Sep 2020)

Leo said:


> All depends on the contract the architect was engaged on. Most people do not opt for full supervision and sign-off of details like this because they feel it's too expensive. It requires a lot of site visits to witness all the required detail before it ends up enclosed.



It was a “full service” engagement. I’ll have to read the fine print on the contract to understand exactly what this means but thanks.


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## Leo (16 Sep 2020)

FonaFona said:


> It was a “full service” engagement. I’ll have to read the fine print on the contract to understand exactly what this means but thanks.



Take a look at the sign-offs received and what they cover. I would have expected a full-service contract to cover inspection of detailing around critical items like roof lights. 

You mention the roof is low pitch. What is the angle and what roof covering is used? Most covering products will specify a minimum pitch.


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## FonaFona (16 Sep 2020)

Tiles are for a roof greater than 23 degrees. The roof is less than 15.


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## Leo (16 Sep 2020)

FonaFona said:


> Tiles are for a roof greater than 23 degrees. The roof is less than 15.



Ouch, that should definitely not have been signed-off. The plans should have specified the solution, most tiles specify a minimum of 17+ degrees, but there are some that will handle 15 ([broken link removed]).


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## Seagull (16 Sep 2020)

I'm presuming the architect who was overseeing the project and signed off on it was the same one who did the design. Did he specify the tiles to be used? If so, you may well have some degree of claim against him.


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## Alkers86 (17 Sep 2020)

Do you have the insurance details for the builder? Talk to the architect again re: the pitch and use of tiles and the prospect of informing the builders insurers.


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## Prosper (17 Sep 2020)

FonaFona said:


> Looking for advice on whether to chase builder through legal system or suck up the cost to get another roofer to do repairs.


I had a situation that sounds almost identical to yours. Lean-to extension with Velux where the roof pitch was too low. I got legal advice from top solicitor firm specialised in construction contracts who gave me advice for half his normal rate of €400/hr. After reading my summary and looking at the contract he advised that, because I had not enforced the contact during the project, I would be better off settling. He wrote a stern letter to the builders solicitor basically saying that he would go after their client with gloves off. I had held back €6k and they settled for €3k. In your case it looks like your builder will not retain a solicitor to go after the €1k. 


FonaFona said:


> To be clear - it doesn’t always leak when it rains as it is dependent on wind conditions and directions.


This was exactly my situation. Also, my Velux windows would swing back to an almost closed position, due to the low roof pitch. From memory they need minimum 17 degree pitch. I got Velux to supply stronger springs and so the Velux will stay open although not fully, but that's ok by me. The leak was very occasional and like you appeared to depend on wind direction. The leaks were so small that water very rarely hit the floor. All I could see were small water stains on the paint close to the Velux frames. Two years ago I used a product called Roof7 on the concrete tiles below the Velux windows. I ran a bead of this Roof7 along the line where the second last row of tiles overlapped the last row. I also slightly lifted the Velux flashing below the Velux and put a thick bead of Roof7 under it and placed heavy weights all along it to make sure it stuck down well. There are no new water marks on the inside now two years later. 


FonaFona said:


> Lead flashing not correctly installed where new roof meets existing building.


Ditto for me. I had a slight leak  at the higher up point. I got up on the roof and reinstalled this lead flashing at the join between lean to and the house. This leak has never occurred since. Putting the lead in yourself is easy.

Regarding your architect, I don't think you have any recourse there as it sounds like you were not paying him/her to "manage" the project.


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## FonaFona (18 Sep 2020)

Thanks to everyone for advice. Much appreciated. Will proceed with solicitor and get a letter sent. 

Will post an update subsequently for your information.


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## FonaFona (16 Jun 2021)

As promised, here is an update following engagement with a solicitor and getting a letter sent off to the builder (600 euros later):

Builder re-engaged immediately on receipt of letter. Apologies, etc. So advice to at least get one letter off to him to see if it would spur him into action did work.

Following a round of discussions that other roofers were exaggerating the problem and the roof was perfectly fine and just needed some basic repairs, there then followed a series of failed patch work attempts over a couple of months.
The builder eventually conceded that the roof had to be completely removed and re-done correctly.

It wasn’t all plain sailing to get to this point (dates set and broken for various reasons) but the roof was removed and redone today. 5 guys, one day.

Here is some of what the builder said - apologies if it doesn’t make sense fully: 
something about not enough wrap around felt where the roof meets the old house, the felt was cut for the velux windows before the velux arrived and was therefore not cut correctly such that there were holes at all four corners of each window, he put on an extra 90 tiles and put on more inches of flashing than what was done before.

(Sorry everyone, I have asked for a written account of what the problem was and what was done to fix it but not holding out much hope. If I get something formal I’ll post.)

He is returning next week to put up stain block on the ceiling and repaint it (water marks). From talking to another plasterer who thinks the boards need to be removed completely, this will be another bit of patch work - let’s see.

I will post again next summer and let you all know if the roof repair was a success. If I don’t have a leak by this time next year then I’ll take it as a good result. 

Having said that: I’m not convinced the leak is solved. Other roofers analysis was that the wrong tile was used for the slope of the roof. The builder has basically removed the tiles that were there, replaced felt and flashing, and replaced the same tiles back on the roof except this time there’s more of them.

Thanks to everyone for posting advice.


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## Prosper (16 Jun 2021)

Did he increase the pitch of the roof? To do this he'd have to have raised up the timbers and joined the extension higher up the back wall of the house.
If he didn't increase the roof pitch, then why would he use the same tiles? Are you sure he didn't remove all the old tiles and use new tiles more suited to the roof pitch?
Did he redo the flashing where the lean-to joins the the main house?
From what you describe it sounds like he just replaced the roofing felt and then re-installed the same roof tiles. This will probably work but over time it might leak slightly again.
It doesn't make sense that he used 90 more tiles on the roof than had been on it.
Do your Velux windows open fully?


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## NotMyRealName (16 Jun 2021)

Was your builder the cheapest quote @ tender stage? This can have more relevance than you think. Cheapest quotes are often from builders who lack experience both in pricing and in expertise. 
Generally low pitch roofs , particularly with velux-type windows, would be slated. Better still, a flat roof with parapet surround is a better option. Check that your roof insulation is dry......as mould can build up above ceiling covering.  Young architects are often very inexperienced when they first fly the nest....
This comment won't fix your roof but may be helpful to others before they start down that road..


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## FonaFona (16 Jun 2021)

Prosper said:


> Did he increase the pitch of the roof? To do this he'd have to have raised up the timbers and joined the extension higher up the back wall of the house.
> If he didn't increase the roof pitch, then why would he use the same tiles? Are you sure he didn't remove all the old tiles and use new tiles more suited to the roof pitch?
> Did he redo the flashing where the lean-to joins the the main house?
> From what you describe it sounds like he just replaced the roofing felt and then re-installed the same roof tiles. This will probably work but over time it might leak slightly again.
> ...


- did not increase the pitch
- didn’t use new tiles except the extra 90)
- redid the flashing
- velux windows open fully
- replaced roofing felt

Have same opinion - might work, might now. Feeling is that he did enough to get me off his back and hope that it doesn’t leak for a few years and then he can say it’s nothing to do with him.


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## FonaFona (16 Jun 2021)

NotMyRealName said:


> Was your builder the cheapest quote @ tender stage? This can have more relevance than you think. Cheapest quotes are often from builders who lack experience both in pricing and in expertise.
> Generally low pitch roofs , particularly with velux-type windows, would be slated. Better still, a flat roof with parapet surround is a better option. Check that your roof insulation is dry......as mould can build up above ceiling covering.  Young architects are often very inexperienced when they first fly the nest....
> This comment won't fix your roof but may be helpful to others before they start down that road..


Thanks. Builder by no means the cheapest quote. Also was recommended. Also went to see his work before engaging and talk to his clients.  My opinion is he put a foreman on site that took short cuts and builder didn’t check up on the work. now he’s covering for it. You’re only as good as your last job. 

Getting another roofer back to inspect before builder comes back to fix ceiling. I did ask that question yesterday when builder was here but of course he said there was no problem with damp/mould. What else will he say.


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## Prosper (16 Jun 2021)

Prosper said:


> It doesn't make sense that he used 90 more tiles on the roof than had been on it.


You must mean that he replaced 90 of the original tiles with 90 new ones for some reason. What size is the lean-to extension? Maybe you'd let us know the L x W (roughly).


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## Leo (16 Jun 2021)

Prosper said:


> It doesn't make sense that he used 90 more tiles on the roof than had been on it.


He's probably increased the overlap to try compensate for the low angle.


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## FonaFona (16 Jun 2021)

Leo said:


> He's probably increased the overlap to try compensate for the low angle.


Definitely 90 EXTRA tiles. And he mentioned increasing the overlap, now that you mention it.


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## Prosper (16 Jun 2021)

Leo said:


> He's probably increased the overlap to try compensate for the low angle.


Would increasing the overlap not mean that the angle of the roof surface is reduced even more?


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## NotMyRealName (16 Jun 2021)

The pitch on this roof was probably dictated by the internal ceiling height and the position of the second storey window cill. We normally advise a flat roof or a pitched slate roof in these circumstances. While low pitch slate roofs can be prone to capillary action, they are generally more reliable where velux -type windows are used. Who picked / advised the roof design/covering ?


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## Leo (17 Jun 2021)

Prosper said:


> Would increasing the overlap not mean that the angle of the roof surface is reduced even more?


No, overall pitch will remain the same. Increasing overlap might help a little but will still be liable to leaks particularly when the wind is blowing up the slope.


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## FonaFona (17 Jun 2021)

NotMyRealName said:


> The pitch on this roof was probably dictated by the internal ceiling height and the position of the second storey window cill. We normally advise a flat roof or a pitched slate roof in these circumstances. While low pitch slate roofs can be prone to capillary action, they are generally more reliable where velux -type windows are used. Who picked / advised the roof design/covering ?


Had an architect. In his words - “There’s nothing wrong with the pitch of the roof.  It’s not my fault the builder used the incorrect materials on it.”
So left to the builder. (Who is a roofer by trade by the way, so no excuse.)


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## Prosper (17 Jun 2021)

FonaFona said:


> “There’s nothing wrong with the pitch of the roof. It’s not my fault the builder used the incorrect materials on it.”


If you look at where the lean-to is joined to the main house, did the builder use every inch of space up to underneath the windowsill  or could he have done the cut-in even higher up. If there is room to go higher then your architect should have seen to it that the builder used up every available millimetre to go as high with the cut-in as he could. One of the biggest problems that subsequently occurs with lean-to extensions is low roof pitch leading to leaks and any architect would know that. I think you said earlier that you paid the architect to manage the project. Well he clearly didn't.


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