# Does the PRTB sanction landlords who have not registered with them?  Tip off Revenue?



## legallady

Hi there

I was just wondering if any of you have heard of the PRTB fining landlords who have not registered with them? 

Also, if a landlord is fined, is Revenue tipped off to pursue Stamp Duty/Income tax? 

I'm asking on behalf of a friend who went to Oz and rented his place. He never registered with the PRTB as he never heard of them. His tenants have now lodged a complaint. He was living in his house for 3 years before he rented it out. He bought it 5 years ago.


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## shesells

*Re: Non registration with PRTB*

Sounds like your friend potentially has lots of issues, but so do the tenants!

Any landlord has to register the tenancy within 6 weeks, it's up to each landlord to stay up to date with legislation. All landlords should also declare income for tax.

*But *here's the bit where tenants come in, tenants of non-resident landlords are supposed to withold 20% of the rent to forward directly to Revenue so the tenants have potentially landed themselves with a big bill.

What's the nature of the complaint? Surely it could have been sorted without escalation to the PRTB?


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## Towger

*Re: Non registration with PRTB*



shesells said:


> tenants of non-resident landlords are supposed to withold 20% of the rent to forward directly to Revenue so the tenants have potentially landed themselves with a big bill.


 
And Revenue have far, far more bite than the PRTB!


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## AlbacoreA

*Re: Non registration with PRTB*

Ouch


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## PaulyB63

*Re: Non registration with PRTB*



shesells said:


> *But *here's the bit where tenants come in, tenants of non-resident landlords are supposed to withold 20% of the rent to forward directly to Revenue so the tenants have potentially landed themselves with a big bill.


 
Just out of interest sake. This is the first time I've ever heard about this and it pertains to my situ??? rent is €750/month and landlady lives in UK and is totally non resident here. I'm 5 months in to my lease now.... What does this mean in my case????

She has not fulfilled any of her legal obligations at alll it turns out and we're having loads of hassle with the house with damps etc. She's nice though so we've offered her 28 days notice.... What's the story with the tax thing though?


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## shesells

*Re: Non registration with PRTB*

You may be liable for 20% of your rent so for the past 5 months...technically you owe Revenue €750..contact Threshold or email phoneservice@citinfo.ie for proper information.


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## PaulyB63

*Re: Non registration with PRTB*

I'm so angry.... How could I be liable?? The money has changed hands??? Surely to god the landlady would have to repay that out of the money I've paid her????


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## Bronte

*Re: Non registration with PRTB*



legallady said:


> Hi there
> 
> I was just wondering if any of you have heard of the PRTB fining landlords who have not registered with them? Also, if a landlord is fined, is Revenue tipped off to pursue Stamp Duty/Income tax? I'm asking on behalf of a friend who went to Oz and rented his place. He never registered with the PRTB as he never heard of them. His tenants have now lodged a complaint. He was living in his house for 3 years before he rented it out. He bought it 5 years ago.


 
Like Towager said I'd be far more worried about the Revenue.  You friend needs to hire an accountant to try and get this sorted, it's very serious, there is a potential liability for Stamp Duty, penalties and interest on this are mounting daily, ditto for income tax as the mortgage interest is not allowable against the income as he is not registered with the PRTB.


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## rory22

*Re: Non registration with PRTB*

Surley just because the landlord is not registered with the PRTB does not mean he/she is automatically not paying income tax on rent?


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## mathepac

*Re: Non registration with PRTB*

@rory22, the only way the landlord can pay tax on the income is to declare it. Are you suggesting that the landlord is paying tax on the gross amount of the rent (no deductions for insurance, agent's fees, mortgage interest, etc)? That would be a very unusual circumstance, unprecedented perhaps.


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## shesells

*Re: Non registration with PRTB*



PaulyB63 said:


> I'm so angry.... How could I be liable?? The money has changed hands??? Surely to god the landlady would have to repay that out of the money I've paid her????



It's a confusing one

see http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/leaflets/it70.html#section17

and

[broken link removed]

Not sure if you can be chased at this stage for the past 5 months but not sure if you can claim tax relief on rent for that time either. You need to speak to Threshold or email citizens information to see where you go from here.


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## PaulyB63

*Re: Non registration with PRTB*

So.... Given I have paid 5 months rent so far.... If I withhold the entire amount for this month and pay it to revenue, that's me in the clear? ie.... 750 is my 20%???

Is it legal for me to do that?


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## PaulyB63

*Re: Non registration with PRTB*

ps.... Thanks for the replies!!


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## shesells

*Re: Non registration with PRTB*

Contact Citizens info or Threshold to find out how to do it, you will also need to inform your landlord...please do get proper advice


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## molbruger

*Re: Non registration with PRTB*

My mum has a few self catering units adjacent to her house.  Due to poor market conditions, these are now let to people, no lease, just pay and tenants can move out if whenever.  This was the she wanted to do it as she did not want any hassle.  She had a agreement with people that she would be able to clean the units every so often and this was her way of making sure everything is ok in there. 

Cash is not accepted etc and everything is being fully declared from a Revenue and NPPR perspective.  

However, she did not register with the PRTB.  From what people I know (tenants & landlords) that had dealings with them, they all said they were the greatest waste of time ever.  A cousin had trouble with tenants who were wrecking a house on him, PRTB were useless, and he ended up having to pay €3000 to convince the tenants (effectively a bribe). 

I was a bit peeved when three letters arrived demanding €140 each and my name was jointly on the letters (even though I do not have anything to do with it legally).  I am fairly sure what triggered this was that one tenant got made redundant and mum signed a rent assist for him.   

This might sound petty, but I am totally opposed to paying a crowd that are just a useless agency.  I’d have no problem if a lease was in place or paying money if a dispute was to arise.  

I really do not want to pay these wasters.  Any suggestions?  Have a good relationship with the tenants and they would be game for anything.  Was considering saying I lived in one of the units with a tenant.  I know she is kinda snookered with the unit where rent supplement is being claimed. 

I know this sounds petty but for some reason I just have it in for this crowd.


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## shesells

*Re: Non registration with PRTB*

Nobody wants to pay the PRTB but it's the law!! If you falsely declare that you are living there you are committing a criminal offence.


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## Trustmeh

*Re: Non registration with PRTB*

I totally agree with you, the PRTB is a stealth tax on LL and a waste of time.

However...



molbruger said:


> Cash is not accepted etc and everything is being fully declared from a Revenue and NPPR perspective.
> 
> However, she did not register with the PRTB.



If she gets audited, then she better have paid tax on the entire amount of rent and she cannot deduct her mortgage interest! The mortgage interest (usually the largest "expense" you can claim as a landlord) is only allowable when you are registered with PRTB in the same month as the tenant moves in. EVEN if she was to back date the PRTB registration she could not actually deduct mortgage interest off the income from rent. She would need to be paying tax on the interest as well or she is not accurately declaring tax to revenue.


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## shesells

*Re: Non registration with PRTB*



yankinlk said:


> I totally agree with you, the PRTB is a stealth tax on LL and a waste of time.



But it's still a legal requirement that you register with them. I would love not to have to pay but complying with the law is not optional.


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## Trustmeh

*Re: Non registration with PRTB*



shesells said:


> But it's still a legal requirement that you register with them. I would love not to have to pay but complying with the law is not optional.



ohmigawd did you even read my post?

No one is going to get arrested for not registering for the PRTB - but you certainly are taking a chance with the revenue if you dont register and try and claim your mortgage interest as a relief.

There are plenty of landlords out there doing neither unfortunately.


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## shesells

*Re: Non registration with PRTB*



yankinlk said:


> ohmigawd did you even read my post?



Yes I did - the post which started saying the PRTB are a waste of space.

From citizens information - Landlords who fail to register may be fined up to €3,000 and face imprisonment for up to six months on conviction. A further penalty of €250 for each day of non-registration may be levied.

Of course it is essential to keep Revenue compliant but this thread is about PRTB registration.


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## Trustmeh

*Re: Non registration with PRTB*

 I guess its lucky then that the PRTB is so inefficient that it takes them over 6 months to cash a check and process a registration.

I expect no one has ever gone to jail or been fined for not registering with PRTB or from not withholding non-resident LL tax.


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## molbruger

*Re: Non registration with PRTB*

Well actually in this case there is no loan on the property(s), hence the income in total is declared to the Revenue with just usuals to offset against (insurance, maintenance, fixtures and fittings etc).  Due to lack of other income my mum is not liable to tax either way (a return is still made however using her accountant).  

Its just the registration with the PRTB that is not being complied with.  Again, when someone moves into one of these places, she has no idea how long they might stay really.  I see from the website that you can have a license to stay as opposed to being a tenant proper.  These is a website and offical registrations to back this up (i.e. holiday accommodation).  Not sure the PRTB will accept this, but sure we'll try. 

Thanks


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## madmoe

*Re: Non registration with PRTB*

Say if u have been living somewhere in apartment you own 4 years, then decide to buy a place with your partner and want to keep on the original place to rent out (at the moment selling it would be hard and you would be making a loss for sure?). As mortgage is high on original place you would like to leave mortgage as is and get just enough rent plus some of your on money to cover repayment. Mortgage on new place shared with your partner would be low, at least for now. 

You don't want to claim TRS on new mortgage with partner but I assume you are still obliged to let revenue know about your old property?

Cheers,
M


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## lff12

*Re: Non registration with PRTB*



legallady said:


> I was just wondering if any of you have heard of the PRTB fining landlords who have not registered with them?



My landlady, who is a massive property owner in the area where I live, only registers if the tenant wants to apply for a residential parking permit and demands that the tenant give her the cash (technically illegal, I know, but almost impossible to police this).  The place is clearly regsitered on the register as "apartment number xxx" buy they haven't pursued her for this or her other properties, none of which seem to be registered either.

As she has at least 2 places subdivided into 10 flats it would be well worth their while chasing her, but clearly they don't at present.  I believe they are heavily understaffed and struggling to cope with the workoads.

Surely if the revenue they collected was ringfenced for their own use they could finance themselves and staff themselves sufficiently?  It does seem they are missing out on massive revenue streams because of noncompliance and non pursual of noncompliant landlords?  Perhaps it would be more effective to link to the 200 euro 2nd home tax as this appears to be more effectively chased up on?


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## round1

*Re: Non registration with PRTB*

_"As she has at least 2 places subdivided into 10 flats it would be well worth their while chasing her, but clearly they (PRTB)don't at present"_
I would certainly report this landlady to the PRTB.


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## Complainer

*Re: Non registration with PRTB*



lff12 said:


> My landlady, who is a massive property owner in the area where I live, only registers if the tenant wants to apply for a residential parking permit and demands that the tenant give her the cash (technically illegal, I know, but almost impossible to police this).


What cash?


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## Howitzer

*Re: Does the PRTB sanction landlords who have not registered with them?  Tip off Reve*

Presumably the 70 euro tenancy registration fee.


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## Paddy199

*Re: Does the PRTB sanction landlords who have not registered with them?  Tip off Reve*

*NB: PRTB pass on information of registered lettings to Revenue*


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## hairymelons

*Re: Does the PRTB sanction landlords who have not registered with them?  Tip off Reve*

Hi,  
We have only recently signed a tenancy form with our landlord and have been living in the property for 3 years.  We are entitled to 2400 euro back in unclaimed rent tax however we were never registered.

Is there anything we can do to get our money back as if we report to the PRTB then our landlord will get screwed by revenue for not paying tax for the last 3 years.

We want our money!!!

Any advice?


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## PaddyBloggit

*Re: Does the PRTB sanction landlords who have not registered with them?  Tip off Reve*

You have made two posts ... one saying you have signed an agreement and one saying you've been asked to sign one ..... which is it?

If you have signed an agreement why would you sign one that gives false information about the length of your tenancy?

You want to claim tax back but you want to safe guard your landlord by signing a false agreement .... you can't play both sides.

The best policy would have been to play it straight .... have you receipts for rent etc.?

Clarify your position and someone may be able to help you .... and don't double post your query or Mods may ban you.


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