# tenant vacating terminated by landlord



## fear peile (17 Jan 2013)

When a tenant is vacating a property and signing key return receipt, ,can the present tenant represent an absent tenant and sign for handover of keys and vacation of property on his behalf. Would this be legally binding. Also Who would  be an acceptable witness of signatures. I don't want absent tenant turning up in 3 months claiming he didn't vacate.

Regards


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## oldnick (17 Jan 2013)

More details needed.  For example, is there connection between present and absent tenant. is present tenant taking over from "absent" ? Has absent tenant paid anything in last few months, left his stuff there or what?
Any adult is an acceptable witness but obviously I.D. details would help -passport or driving licence details or similar.


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## fear peile (17 Jan 2013)

Apologies for my vague question and for lack of information supplied. Please find the following information which may help to make an informed reply.
I would appreciate very much some replies, especially from you oldnick, an experienced landlord.

1. When I refer to present tenant and absent tenant. I should really be calling them ocupants.Yes there is a connection They are a couple one of who is still in the property and the other is unavoidably absent from the premises due to certain circumstances. This couple had rented the premises under the one lease.
2. The tenants were overholding the property and there has been no rent paid for a number of months by the occupants.
3. The tenants were served with a valid notice to terminate the tenancy prior to gaining a part 4 tenancy.
4.After a period of time trying to talk them out I was in the process of lodging a PRTB dispute, when this development occurred.
4. The remaining ocupant has agreed verbally to vacate.
5. My fear is that the current missing occupant will come back and occupy the property after a number of months.( very difficult person to deal with)
6. I intend to change the locks and install an alarm when the house is vacated.
7. My questions are 
(a) If one of the couple hands back the keys and signs a key return receipt, will it cover for the other person that they have vacated.
(b) Am I putting myself in any dodgy situation by changing the locks. 
(c) If the other(currently absent) person returns to the property will he be breaking and entering and can I press charges or defend my property with a weapon.
(d) if the tenant refuses to sign a key return receipt or keys left some stuff there and just vacates what should I do ?
(e) Regarding question about witness, would a sibling or relative be acceptable as a witness of key return.

Apologies if I have missed out on any details.
The last number of months have been a very stressful time for me and I look forward to putting this issue behind me. I do not want to find myself in difficult circumstances in the future with this shower.

Hopefully they will not come back to bother me again.


Regards,


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## mercman (17 Jan 2013)

This really requires a person who knows the law of residency backwards. I'm not going to offer an opinion as the intricacies on residential letting is not my best subject. I deal mostly with commercial property issues.  Old Nick is your man to offer best advice. Good luck with your problem.


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## oldnick (17 Jan 2013)

I wouldn't deem to know the law on this - and I bet two lawyers would give two different peices of advice.

I really cannot imagine that if the remaining tenant (R)  voluntairly vacates and everything is done properly regarding keys etc that  legally you'd have a problem with absent tenant(A).

If you have a signed lease and the only signatory was A then,possibly, there'd be a legal problem if A turns up the next day or so. I still doubt it, but it would be better if both had signed or even better just R. (Not that there's any obligation to have written contracts).

If you and R sign a returned key receipt,copy for each of you, that's great.
if R signs nothing and just throws the keys back, or not at all, then that's slightly problematic.  But ,again, I doubt there'll be a legal problem.
It's best ,of course, to be as nice and friendly as possible in order to get that signature.
I can't imagine R signing a note that states  "on behalf of A and R I am returning keys to the LL as we are vacating XYZ". (I can't suggest a bribe to obtain that)

Has A left stuff there ? Again ,let R sign for it and take it. If R refuses then ,again small problem. A 's possessions must be carefully stored.

To sum up, if R goes, even without a signature I'd still go ahead and change the locks etc.
====================

Now, someone else, an expert in law, may say that you should contact A and prove that you have tried to do so. Do you know where he is ? 

Anyone can be a witness, but using one with no connection to you would be wiser than using a relative.

Nobody can use any weapon or force to defend "property". Do you mean defend yourself?
Yes,of course. But this brings up a question....

.. is A some presently in jail or mental hospital and you fear for your personal safety ?

Your query suggests a fear of damage to property and/or harm to yourself as much as any tenancy dispute, in which case I don't know how anyone here could or should advise you properly.


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## Bronte (18 Jan 2013)

This is getting way too complicated. I would lodge a case today with the PRTB, get your story in first, you don't have to go ahead with it, in any case it's a waste of time, but it will look good if 3 months from now Tenant A comes back. 

I would take photographic evidence of the place and get the Tenant B to sign the document and to state in this document that tenant A left on x date etc, you now have tenant B as a witness, in writing. 

Tell the PRTB in your application all that you've stated on here. You could in addition send an email to the PRTB asking the same question you posted on here. Adding pictures. This too give you documentary proof of your story. In addition if you have tenant A's mobile you could text him, saying as you've not seen him for a few month and he's vacated you're taking possession and keep that text. More proof.

The things landlords have to do !


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## facetious (18 Jan 2013)

Section 51 of the RTA 2004 is about: Act of one of multiple tenants cannot prejudice the other’s or others’ rights.

However, in general, this section applies to Part 4 tenancies and not fixed term tenancies.

If the tenants are a couple, (married or in a partnership) then perhaps one is liable for the other's actions.

If you know where the "missing tenant" is you could also serve him with the required notices of rent arrears and termination at that address.

This is a situation that I have not come across in any PRTB decisions.

As Bronte suggests, check with the PRTB, they may or may not be helpful - but don't expect a response by return!!


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## fear peile (18 Jan 2013)

Thank you everyone for your replies. Hopefully all will work out ok with this situation. I really need to get it behind me and move on. 
I have e mailed the PRTB regarding the overholding/rent arrears situation and what the ocupant is capable of. They replied that " the tenants are copied with copies of the documentation submitted in respect of the case, The tenants are entitled to receive copies of the evidence in accordance with their Constitutional rights and also have a right to respond to allegations contained therein and to participate in any subsequent hearing that is arranged in the matter."
Given what is being detailed in my e mails they informed me the case will be treated as a priority case and a hearing will be set up as soon as possible, when I make an application.
The absence of the tenant from the property is a very recent development. I am waiting to see what develoments occur at the key handover before I make any decision about PRTB dispute application. 
I am of the same opinion of oldnick that if the remaining tenant (R) voluntairly vacates and everything is done properly regarding keys etc that legally you'd have a problem with absent tenant(A) and that, "It's best ,of course, to be as nice and friendly as possible in order to get that signature."
If I go putting in prtb dispute now it will only aggrevate the situation. 

I have been a LL now for 11 yrs, never had any dealings with PRTB previously, only to register, and never really had any serious issues with tenants, anything that ever came up is only chicken feed to this situation. I am a still a firm believer that if you are ok with tenants, sort out any issues, they will be ok with you. I let my guard down accepting this shower, but It will never happen me again. I have learnt a lesson the hardway "VET YOUR TENANTS" with more then one person.

In my opinion the occupants were not lawfully in the property by overholding and not paying rent after being served with a valid notice of termination and before they were able to claim any part 4 tenancy. 
If a situation develops in the future with the current absent ocupant, he will end up in the same situation he now finds himself in. I hope it will never come to that.

Thanks again everyone for your replies, much appreciated and it is good for me to be able to discuss.


Regards,


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## oldnick (18 Jan 2013)

I know that others ,especially those who read the letter of the law rather than the spirit, will advise that one should go thru PRTB.

Legally they are probably correct.  But we all know that civil servants will follow the letter of the law rather than commons sense if there's the slightest possibiltiy that common sense conflicts with the law. I don't blame civil servants - they have to cover themselves.

We also all know that PRTB is very very slow and going thru PRTB can actually delay something that could far more easily and quickly be done  directly. I'm unsure how quickly a "priority" case is dealt with.

It is quite wrong of me to advise you to ignore PRTB.All I can say is that if you go through them then everything has to be put on hold-for how long I couldn't guess.
It's up to you whether you take the risk that not going through PRTB will land you in trouble.
It's a risk I'd most certainly take. But that's a personal decision , not the proper,"correct" advice.


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## fear peile (19 Jan 2013)

Oldnick, I know its my decision but I think you are correct in your risk assesement, thanks for the advice, I will let you know how I get on with the key handover, hopefully common sense will prevail. 
I would be of the opinion that a priorty case with PRTB would be approx 2-3 months.

Thanks again,


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## Bronte (22 Jan 2013)

oldnick said:


> I know that others ,especially those who read the letter of the law rather than the spirit, will advise that one should go thru PRTB.
> 
> .


 
I agree with you on this, and OP has emailed PRTB rather than taking a case.  So he now has backdated 'proof' that the tenant is not there so it would be very difficult if the tenant takes a case for the tenant to deny he has left.  

In any case as OP yourself and myself know the PRTB for landlords is probably a waste of time.  But it's good to get yourself in their door first so to speak where you have a serious doubt about a tenant.


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## fear peile (23 Jan 2013)

On the example notice of termination on the link below, which is endorsed by the PRTB
http://www.irishlandlord.com/documents/Managing Tenants/Sample Notice of Termination.pdf

 item 4 in the notes states the following

"If termination is by a tenant on behalf of multiple tenants, one signature will suffice if all of the tenants are named in the notice and the signing tenant states he/she is signing on behalf of all of the tenants."

I would assume that the same would apply to key receipt and key handover.

Unfortunately the problem I have now is to get this all important signature !!


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## facetious (24 Jan 2013)

fear peile said:


> On the example notice of termination on the link below, which is endorsed by the PRTB
> http://www.irishlandlord.com/documents/Managing%20Tenants/Sample%20Notice%20of%20Termination.pdf
> 
> item 4 in the notes states the following
> ...



I thought the tenancy was being terminated by you, the landlord.

Do you know where the "missing" tenant is? You can address a Notice of Termination to him, at the address of the property (as he has not given you any other address) and post it through the letterbox of the property itself - be sure to have a witness of doing same (or use the Post Office who can provide a receipt of delivery (not registered post as that has to be signed for), unfortunately as present, I can't remember the name of this type of delivery.

Once the time-frame has passed you are entitled to enter the property if you believe it to be vacant. Also, if you believe it to be vacant, you could, under "an emergency" enter to check that no pipes have burst in this cold spell.


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## mercman (24 Jan 2013)

Surely, as in this case, rent has been left unpaid for months, the landlord should use his rights to gain possession of his own property.


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## fear peile (24 Jan 2013)

Thanks for the advice facetious. Yes, the tenancy was terminated by me the landlord and yes I have a fair idea where he is. Surely if he has been served with a valid notice of termination some time ago and has been overholing the property since, why would I need now to serve another notice to the absent tenant.
The point I was trying to establish on my post, is if one signature is acceptable by the PRTB on a notice of termination on behalf of multible tenants, surely the same would also apply to a key return receipt, stating that all tenants have vacated the property and no longer have access to their former residence.(one tenant signing on behalf of multiple tenants)


Mercman, as oldnick has quoted in his post, " We all know that civil servants will follow the letter of the law rather than commons sense if there's the slightest possibiltiy that common sense conflicts with the law."
I have no doubt that this is the policy of the PRTB>>>I have to make sure that I have myself fully protected as I would have some doubts as to what the absent tenant may do down the road.

We all saw earlier this week what the law is capable of when a self confessed rapist walked out the door of a courtroom, although thank god this disgraceful decision has been rectified today.

Thanks again for all the advice.

Regards,


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