# Ivor Callely



## Purple (28 Jul 2014)

The bold Ivor gets 5 months for making false mobile phone expenses claims. Good news.
I do find it strange that a man who was convicted of collecting pension contributions from his employees and keeping them, collecting €1'400'000 in VAT from customers but not passing it on to the state (in other words defrauding the people of Ireland of €1.4 million) around the same time he gave his half a million Italian villa and winery to his bother as a gift and was arrested for criminal damage in Shannon Airport is still sitting in the Dail.


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## TarfHead (28 Jul 2014)

As a former resident of, and voter in, Dublin North Central, and parishioner in Saint Anthonys, my word for today is _schadenfreude ._


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## TRS30 (28 Jul 2014)

I thought the non payment of VAT and the transfer of asset to a sibling was Mick Wallace. 

Guess I can't keep up with all the dodgy dealing of our political class.......


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## Brendan Burgess (28 Jul 2014)

I found the defence argument a bid odd 



> Mr O’Higgins cited a number previous cases where  politicians were convicted for a breach of trust. He made reference to  the case of former minister Fianna Fail Ray Burke who was jailed for six  months for tax offences in 2005. Counsel said Burke’s offences are not  comparable to Callely’s as they involved the tax code, which is directly  decided by legislators.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If there is no special status attaching to a politician why did he quote all the other cases? 

If an employee of a private company  fraudulently claimed €4,200 in expenses, would he go to jail? 

This guy didn't go to jail for a much larger amount. 
*Anglo clerk gets suspended term  for €200k fraud*

This is the type of case that the defence counsel should have been quoting.  

Why is a politician claiming false expenses from the tax payer so much worse? 

I have never liked Callelly, but I think he should have got a suspended sentence.

In this case, a financial advisor went to jail for defrauding a client.   But the money appears to have been fairly small.   This may have been justified on the grounds that it was a breach of trust which seems worse than defrauding your employer - the state. 

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/irel...illor-gary-o-flynn-jailed-for-theft-1.1854094


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## Delboy (28 Jul 2014)

Purple said:


> The bold Ivor gets 5 months for making false mobile phone expenses claims. Good news.
> I do find it strange that a man who was convicted of collecting pension contributions from his employees and keeping them, collecting €1'400'000 in VAT from customers but not passing it on to the state (in other words defrauding the people of Ireland of €1.4 million) around the same time he gave his half a million Italian villa and winery to his bother as a gift and was arrested for criminal damage in Shannon Airport is still sitting in the Dail.



Are you confusing your Ivor's with your Micks!
Just read a CV of Ivor's by Harry McGee in the IT, and while he has a colourful past, there's no mention of any of the above. Mick Wallace on the other hand...


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## Sunny (28 Jul 2014)

Brendan Burgess said:


> I found the defence argument a bid odd
> 
> If there is no special status attaching to a politician why did he quote all the other cases?
> 
> ...


 
I thought the same thing with regard to the argument put forward. I thought it was odd to mention all thes politicians that had been jailed and then point out that they weren't comparable to his client. Why mention them in the first place? Think I would be asking for a discount on my legal fees......

Harsh sentence but hard to have any sympathy to be honest.


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## Sunny (28 Jul 2014)

Delboy said:


> Are you confusing your Ivor's with your Micks!
> Just read a CV of Ivor's by Harry McGee in the IT, and while he has a colourful past, there's no mention of any of the above. Mick Wallace on the other hand...


 
I think Purple was pointing out the irony (probably not the right word!) of the situation....


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## Delboy (28 Jul 2014)

Sunny said:


> I think Purple was pointing out the irony (probably not the right word!) of the situation....



sorry, read it too quickly. Yes, can see that now.

Good to see a corrupt politician going 'down', but I can't see how he won't appeal the severity of the sentence and win ...it does seem harsh v's many others quoted


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## Brendan Burgess (28 Jul 2014)

Sunny said:


> Harsh sentence but hard to have any sympathy to be honest.



I don't like  the guy, but that is not a criterion for jailing him.  So I do have sympathy for him.

He repaid the money and he pleaded guilty early on.  

I would imagine that it will be overturned on appeal. 

Brendan


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## Sunny (28 Jul 2014)

Brendan Burgess said:


> I don't like the guy, but that is not a criterion for jailing him. So I do have sympathy for him.
> 
> He repaid the money and he pleaded guilty early on.
> 
> ...


 
Why would you have sympathy for him? He knowingly broke the law and took his chances with the justice system. He might have got a suspended sentence or he might have been jailed. He got jailed. I am not going to waste my time feeling sympathy for the guy. I might think it is harsh considering other sentences but that's not the same as feeling sorry for him.

Do you have sympathy for people who steal off social welfare or don't pay their tv license and are jailed even though other people who commit similar crimes might not be jailed for various reasons? 

He didn't just sign something once to claim something. He invented false invoices, blamed a deceased collegaue who couldn't defend himself and wasted Gardai time by lying when questioned. I will save my sympathy......


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## Brendan Burgess (28 Jul 2014)

Sunny said:


> Do you have sympathy for people who steal off social welfare or don't pay their tv license and are jailed even though other people who commit similar crimes might not be jailed for various reasons?



I have never seen a report of anyone being jailed for not paying a TV license.  Maybe they have, it's just that I have not seen it.

The penalty has to be proportionate.  Most drunk drivers don't go to jail, which some would consider a worse crime than Callelly committed.  Certainly repeated convictions for drunk driving should result in a jail sentence. 

If every TV license evader and every false social welfare claimant and everyone who fraudulently claimed expenses, went to jail,  we would need many more prisons. 

Maybe all of these people should go to jail?  A week for driving drunk. A week for not paying the TV license. A week for claiming false expenses. 

Seems a bit tough to me, but maybe it would cut down these crimes. 

But certainly a person should not be jailed for an offence for which he would not be jailed were he not a politician.   The Anglo guy stole €200,000 and did not go to jail.  

Brendan


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## Crugers (28 Jul 2014)

Brendan Burgess said:


> I have never seen a report of anyone being jailed for not paying a TV license.  Maybe they have, it's just that I have not seen it....



http://www.independent.ie/irish-new...for-not-paying-their-tv-licence-30235625.html


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## Sunny (28 Jul 2014)

Brendan Burgess said:


> I have never seen a report of anyone being jailed for not paying a TV license.  Maybe they have, it's just that I have not seen it.
> 
> The penalty has to be proportionate.  Most drunk drivers don't go to jail, which some would consider a worse crime than Callelly committed.  Certainly repeated convictions for drunk driving should result in a jail sentence.
> 
> ...



Why are you claiming he was jailed because he was a politician? 

If you want to discuss sentencing, that is a different discussion to saying you have sympathy for someone that defrauded the taxpayer. There are plenty of examples of inconsistencies in sentences but that's not the argument. He rolled the dice when he decided to break the law. 

Do you have sympathy for these people? Or is Ivor a bit different class of person as a politician? 

[broken link removed]


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## Brendan Burgess (28 Jul 2014)

Crugers said:


> http://www.independent.ie/irish-new...for-not-paying-their-tv-licence-30235625.html



Thanks Crugers

Thousands are charged, but why were these 411 jailed, I wonder. I suspect it was for repeat offences, so their jailing was probably justified.


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## Brendan Burgess (28 Jul 2014)

Sunny said:


> Why are you claiming he was jailed because he was a politician?



I assume it was because he was a politician. There is no other logical explanation. 




> Do you have sympathy for these people? Or is Ivor a bit different class of person as a politician?
> 
> [broken link removed]



People should not be jailed nor spared jail because they are a politician.

A bank official doesn't go to jail for €200k. Someone else goes to jail for €4,200.  That is wrong. 

The social welfare fraud is so widespread that perhaps jailing is needed as a deterrent.  I don't have sympathy for them, although I am not sure why I don't.


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## Brendan Burgess (28 Jul 2014)

On reflection, Callelly should have been fined heavily instead of having been sent to jail.  

The message does need to get out there. Fraud does not pay. 

Maybe fine him €20,000? 

Likewise the guys who stole social welfare.  Fine them 5 times what they defrauded. 

Brendan


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## dereko1969 (29 Jul 2014)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Thanks Crugers
> 
> Thousands are charged, but why were these 411 jailed, I wonder. I suspect it was for repeat offences, so their jailing was probably justified.



Because they decided not to pay the fine and took the 3 or 4 hours in prison instead. No one is being sent to prison for not having a TV licence, they are being sent to prison for non-payment of a fine.

Callely was sent to prison because he was a politician as the judge stated 

*Judge Mary Ellen Ring said a custodial sentence was needed in the public interest, and the fact of the sentence rather than the length was the most important factor. Judge Ring said politicians are not expected to be superhuman, but said a major factor in the case was a “significant breach of trust” because of Callely’s role as a public representative.*

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/ivor-callely-sentenced-to-five-months-in-prison-1.1880454

He was held to a higher account than the bank clerk or the social welfare fraudster.


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## Sunny (29 Jul 2014)

dereko1969 said:


> Because they decided not to pay the fine and took the 3 or 4 hours in prison instead. No one is being sent to prison for not having a TV licence, they are being sent to prison for non-payment of a fine.
> 
> Callely was sent to prison because he was a politician as the judge stated
> 
> ...


 
No he wasn't. He was sent to jail because he stole money. Being a politician was an aggravating factor. What's wrong with that? People get jailed all the time because of aggravating factors with regard to who they are and the position they held when committing a crime.

How was he held to a higher account? There are plenty of people in jail for defrauding social welfare. There are plenty that got suspended sentences as well. Do you feel sorry for the ones in prison?

People's attitude to white collar crime in this country amazes me. Instead of people calling for tougher sentences, we have expressions of sympathy because the poor guy got prison when a bank clerk was extremely lucky to only get a suspended sentence. Why not discuss why that sentence was so light instead of expressing sympathy for a crooked politician?


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## TarfHead (29 Jul 2014)

Miriam Lord nails it.


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## dereko1969 (29 Jul 2014)

Sunny said:


> No he wasn't. He was sent to jail because he stole money. Being a politician was an aggravating factor. What's wrong with that? People get jailed all the time because of aggravating factors with regard to who they are and the position they held when committing a crime.
> 
> How was he held to a higher account? There are plenty of people in jail for defrauding social welfare. There are plenty that got suspended sentences as well. Do you feel sorry for the ones in prison?
> 
> People's attitude to white collar crime in this country amazes me. Instead of people calling for tougher sentences, we have expressions of sympathy because the poor guy got prison when a bank clerk was extremely lucky to only get a suspended sentence. Why not discuss why that sentence was so light instead of expressing sympathy for a crooked politician?



You're mis-reading me. I'm delighted he got sent to jail, however the judge herself stated that she was holding him to a higher account because he was a politician.

I think many of the others mentioned above (the bank official/social welfare etc) should have been jailed too.

I was stating facts, not opinion.

You really should read things more carefully.


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## Brendan Burgess (29 Jul 2014)

I had not known this bit.  It changes my attitude to sympathy for him. 
But these are the reasons he should have gone to jail, not because he was a politician and a not very nice person.



> *Breach of trust *
> 
> When Judge [broken link removed]  sent the former junior minister and senator down for five months, it  wasn’t the piffling four grand he diddled from the State that did for  Ivor, but rather the “significant breach of trust” that had been placed  in him as a public representative.This case  has been going on for years, but Callely didn’t admit his guilt until he  was in court in March. He maintained his innocence up until then, lying  to the Garda and to the Standards in Public Office Commission in the  process.
> When he did come clean, noted the judge,  the defendant didn’t give the court any explanation for his actions  apart from “an excuse of entitlement to the monies.”


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## Purple (30 Jul 2014)

Sunny said:


> I think Purple was pointing out the irony (probably not the right word!) of the situation....



Yes, that was my point. I'm glad Callely got a custodial sentence but I am amazed and sickened that Mick Wallace is in Leinster House and not in prison. 
In my opinion he is the worst example of a TD, and as a TD, that we've ever had.


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## blueband (31 Jul 2014)

Purple said:


> Yes, that was my point. I'm glad Callely got a custodial sentence but I am amazed and sickened that Mick Wallace is in Leinster House and not in prison.
> In my opinion he is the worst example of a TD, and as a TD, that we've ever had.


Wallace definitely has his faults alright, but in my view he has largely redeemed himself by being instrumental in bringing down Shatter, now there was the worst example of a minister for justice we've ever had.


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## Purple (31 Jul 2014)

blueband said:


> Wallace definitely has his faults alright, but in my view he has largely redeemed himself by being instrumental in bringing down Shatter, now there was the worst example of a minister for justice we've ever had.


Really? What did Shatter do that was worse than tax evasion, taking money from his employees that should have gone into their pensions, gifting a half million euro villa in order to avoid creditors and burning small suppliers to the tune of hundreds of thousands of Euro?
Shatter was and probably still is an arrogant man who abused his power for petty political purposes but he was an excellent legislator and a social liberal in a conservative centre right party.


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## TarfHead (31 Jul 2014)

blueband said:


> .. now there was the worst example of a minister for justice we've ever had.



Ask your parents about a certain Fianna Fail TD who held that office in the 1980s.


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## blueband (31 Jul 2014)

TarfHead said:


> Ask your parents about a certain Fianna Fail TD who held that office in the 1980s.


fair point, and im old enough to remember that, so I guess it only makes him the worst minister for justice in over thirty years, my apologies..


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## Sunny (31 Jul 2014)

Worse than Brendan Smith, Brian Lenihan, Dermot Ahern, John O'Donoghue, Padraig Flynn, Nora Owen, Michael Mc Dowell and Maire Geoghegan Quinn? Hmmmmmmm


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## Purple (31 Jul 2014)

Sunny said:


> Worse than Brendan Smith, Brian Lenihan, Dermot Ahern, John O'Donoghue, Padraig Flynn, Nora Owen, Michael Mc Dowell and Maire Geoghegan Quinn? Hmmmmmmm



Maire Geoghegan Quinn did some good work but then again so did Shatter. 
I can't see any way it could be said that Smith, O'Donoghue or Flynn were better than Shatter. The rest had their good and bad points.


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## Vanilla (31 Jul 2014)

Purple said:


> Really? What did Shatter do that was worse than tax evasion, taking money from his employees that should have gone into their pensions, gifting a half million euro villa in order to avoid creditors and burning small suppliers to the tune of hundreds of thousands of Euro?
> Shatter was and probably still is an arrogant man who abused his power for petty political purposes but he was an excellent legislator and a social liberal in a conservative centre right party.



Excellent post, very well put.


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## T McGibney (1 Aug 2014)

To be fair to Brendan Smith, he was Minister for Justice for only a few weeks in the dying days of the Cowen adminstration, and would never have had a chance to do anything of note in the role.


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## Bronte (4 Aug 2014)

Purple said:


> What did Shatter do that was worse than tax evasion, taking money from his employees that should have gone into their pensions, gifting a half million euro villa in order to avoid creditors and burning small suppliers to the tune of hundreds of thousands of Euro?
> Shatter was and probably still is an arrogant man who abused his power for petty political purposes but he was an excellent legislator and a social liberal in a conservative centre right party.


 
Shatter abused his office, that is worse than tax evasion etc surely?  He also did not act correctly in relation to the whisleblowers, the bugging of GSOC is still not clear to me, and his department, of which he was supposed to be in charge sounds to be in total disarry.  

I agree he was socially liberal.  

Disagree that he was an excellent legislation as the Insolvency legislation is already known to be flawed.


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## dereko1969 (5 Aug 2014)

Bronte said:


> Shatter abused his office



How so?


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## Delboy (5 Aug 2014)

Ivor being discussed now on Joe Duffy.....Joe's being talking to the locals in Clontarf and mostly the feeling is sympathy for Ivor and they feel his sentence and being sent to Muntjoy was too harsh


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## T McGibney (5 Aug 2014)

Bronte said:


> Shatter abused his office, that is worse than tax evasion etc surely?  He also did not act correctly in relation to the whisleblowers, the bugging of GSOC is still not clear to me, and his department, of which he was supposed to be in charge sounds to be in total disarry.



The extent to which a Minister abuses their office determines how their misdemeanours compare to other crimes. While the full story on Shatter's tenure and resignation remains yet to become clear, the fact remains that there is no evidence that Shatter benefitted financially from any decision or action he took while Minister, while Wallace has definitely benefitted financially from some of his more contentious actions. 




Bronte said:


> I agree he was socially liberal.



Being socially liberal is an outlook. It is not a virtue any more than being a conservative should be seen as a virtue.



Bronte said:


> Disagree that he was an excellent legislation as the Insolvency legislation is already known to be flawed.



The Insolvency Service fiasco was patently clear to anyone who studied the legislation in any detail. How much this folly is attributable to Shatter is debatable as it followed the same general template as each major State quango that has been established in the past 5-10 years.


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## cork (13 Aug 2014)

blueband said:


> Wallace definitely has his faults alright, but in my view he has largely redeemed himself by being instrumental in bringing down Shatter, now there was the worst example of a minister for justice we've ever had.



I would be more impressed by Wallace if he paid back his debts to the Revenue.


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