# Building a new floor on top of existing top floor on apartment block



## monkeyboy (17 Jul 2007)

My brother and I own 2 out of 3 apartmnets on the top floor of an apartment block in a UK city centre. We are currently trying to acquire the 3rd. All other floors consist of 6 units mixed 1 / 2 bed.
These  top floor apartments are HUGE by Irish standards and owning all 3 could easily knock the internal walls and create 5 new units.

The next step is to build over head. I dont think planning is an issue as it is :
1. An area under going city centre urban regeneration  
2. Is lower by at least one floor than all the neighbouring buidlings 
3. Is of a horrible 80s mansard build that we would propose in the design to update to a more modern glazed finish - in fitting with the regeneration proposals.

Technically it is an easy job to do with excellent access all round and structurally sound. The managing company is controlled by the residents and the only 2 owners living there are my brother and an estate agent who we would propse to be part of the venture for their local input in return for any sales.

My main area for query would be who owns the space over head?
What consents do we need? At all?
What areas do we need to be looking at to make this feasible?

I have seen a similar job happen on a UK based property show in very similar circumstances so Im keen to investigate this avenue further.

We have used an Irish solicitor for our purchases and I intend to discuss this venture with him, any further advice and ideas from AAMers is greatly appreciated as we step into early stages on this exciting venture.
thanks all
MB


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## marsplastic (18 Jul 2007)

whats your question again exactly?


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## marsplastic (18 Jul 2007)

_My main area for query would be who owns the space over head?_
There is a limit as per original planning i presume...only you can answer this.

_What consents do we need? At all?_
Again, a planning issue.

_What areas do we need to be looking at to make this feasible?_
Start with planning application. If its feasible i am sure you will find what areas have outstanding issues associated with them.


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## Madangan (18 Jul 2007)

monkeyboy said:


> The managing company is controlled by the residents and the only 2 owners living there are my brother and an estate agent who we would propse to be part of the venture for their local input in return for any sales.
> 
> My main area for query would be who owns the space over head?
> What consents do we need? At all?
> ...


 

The ownership of airspace is probably governed by the legal documents e.g first lease/conveyance when the apartments were first built. The original developer could feasibly have retained this but more likely the Management company would own this. However Uk law may be quite different in this regard so your solictor should be very familiar with this area or else get a UK lawyer. The fact that most owners are not resident wont make much of a difference ,if their consent is needed it will be by virtue of ownership not occupation. Indeed it may make matters more complicated as you may have to keep all owners and all occupiers happy.

Btw I think I saw the same programme(and while it may be judicious editing by the programme makers) I thought the other owners underneath were amazingly understanding and to an extent the developer couple seemed to ride roughshod over them oblivious to the disruption and nuisance being caused. Maybe the english really are a far nicer less complaining less litigious race than we are  but if the same had gone on here the couple would have been sued and sued... If you do find that you can add a floor like they did and you do get planning remember that no planning permission gives you the right to damage (in the slightest)other peoples property or cause a nuisance to them etc...


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## gonk (18 Jul 2007)

I vaguely recall reading about similar add-on developments being mooted for various Dublin apartment blocks over the last couple of years. In the cases I read about, the gains from the development were to be shared between _all_ owners. Certainly, if I owned an apartment in your block, that's what I'd expect.

The fact that you own the top-floor apartments does not give you ownership of the roof - this forms part of the common areas which are vested in the management company. Beware also of proceeding with changes to the internal layout of your existing apartments without checking if your lease permits this. 

There was a case in Dún Laoghaire a couple of years ago where an apartment owner altered the internal layout of his apartment by knocking internal walls. He was brought to court by the management company and made to restore the original layout.


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## z109 (18 Jul 2007)

The apartment complex I used to live in in Milltown received an offer from a developer to build extra apartments on the roof. The developer was offering a fixed payment to each existing apartment in the block (as I recall €10,000) plus some other minor incentives. It needed unanimous agreement of all owners according to the management company rules. Pretty much no-one agreed to it and it was rejected at the AGM.


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## monkeyboy (18 Jul 2007)

Yes thats the same show I saw madangan ! Our proposal would also involve revemping the lift and foyer area so there would be a lot to gaoin for the other occupants.

Gonk, we have no intention of altering the roof in anyway the steel frame would span over the roof completely isolated from the existing roof, also keeping a real sond proof barrrier between the 2. The steel frame can be stood entiirely within the demise of the outer perimiter also.

thankls for all the feed back, it would appear the main area to look into is the legals, we need to retain a local solicitor for that. That will be next step after creating GA/concept drawings soon.

thanks again. I have heard of an apt on the corner of N11/Mount Merrion where this was done ( near MCOS old office ). I intend to look into this and maybe even the UK TV show may have case studies, I cant recall the name......Mandangan???


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## monkeyboy (18 Jul 2007)

gonk said:


> There was a case in Dún Laoghaire a couple of years ago where an apartment owner altered the internal layout of his apartment by knocking internal walls. He was brought to court by the management company and made to restore the original layout.




Yeah I understand we need permissions for this.the beaauty is that the managing commitee conssit of my bvrother and the EA as mentioned. No one else ( absentee landlords ) has any interest in the building and indeed before my bro and EA rang in the managing agents ( get this!! ) had not received any calls in over 2 years!!!

A very relaxed bunch of tenants I think!


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## z109 (18 Jul 2007)

monkeyboy said:


> YI have heard of an apt on the corner of N11/Mount Merrion where this was done ( near MCOS old office ). I intend to look into this and maybe even the UK TV show may have case studies, I cant recall the name......Mandangan???



The apartment block next to the one I was in had this done - it's the block beside Richmond Court on Richmond Avenue in Milltown, sorry I can't remember the name - that was where the developer was coming along asking if we wanted it done. From the look of the steel frames he had put up, it looks as though he used the same construction method you are thinking of.
HTH, E.


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## runner (18 Jul 2007)

The Mount Merrion apartments involved are beside the radisson Hotel, same driveway on RHS. The units involved are owned by sons of prominent D4 property mongul. Were told by court recently I think to restore to original format, after they had merged them.


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## Madangan (18 Jul 2007)

Was the TV programme Grand Design on CH 4 or E4? If so Im sure if you google that programme youlee be able to find it again ( and watch it again and again on Tv as all those shows seem to be on aloop on saturdays on E4.


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## monkeyboy (18 Jul 2007)

Madangan said:


> Was the TV programme Grand Design on CH 4 or E4? If so Im sure if you google that programme youlee be able to find it again ( and watch it again and again on Tv as all those shows seem to be on aloop on saturdays on E4.



thats the one cheers.......


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## gipimann (18 Jul 2007)

The project was in Bournemouth as far as I recall - the Sandbanks area. That might help the google search.


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## woods (20 Jul 2007)

I think that this is the one.
Shortcut to: http://www.channel4.com/4homes/ontv/grand-designs/houses/B/bournemouth.html

I have this link stored because I was interested in the windows that they used


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## hope4711 (23 Jul 2007)

I own an apartment in Monkstown where this is being proposed.  There had to be unanimous agreement on the part of the owners (in exchange for a revamp of the block, lifts common areas etc and a payment to each apartment owner).  The developer is currently applying for permission.


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