# Leaving Ireland



## belle1

Hi All

I would just like to say there is a wealth of great information on this site, thank you all.

I am unemployed and hope to move in a few months to a non-eu country where I have family.  I owe 14k to AIB.  This loan was 27k, I took this loan out for a friend at the time, things happened and that person never repaid me - stupid judgement on my part!!!

Ive always had a decent enough wage, so have always paid but in the last year or so I hve struggled to make the full payments.  Currently I am paying €50 per mth.  I also have a mortgage which I am trying to pay.  I have spoken to AIB and they said that I can only pay 50e per month until May and then repayments will have to be increased.  I asked the bank official what could happen if I dont pay at all and she said they will try and seek a judgement against me.

My question is if I leave Ireland, and do not make payments, and the bank cannont contact me, under the Statute of Limitations (6years) will this loan be written off?  I am not saying I am not going to pay, hopefully I will get a job abroad but worst case scenario, what can the banks do to me if I am abroad and they cannot contact me?

Someone told me that I can be arrested at the airport if there is a summons to court for me...does it mean I could not return to ireland for 6 years even for a holiday?  

I would appreciate any advice you all may have.

Thank you


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## Bronte

belle1 said:


> worst case scenario, what can the banks do to me if I am abroad and they cannot contact me?
> 
> Someone told me that I can be arrested at the airport if there is a summons to court for me...does it mean I could not return to ireland for 6 years even for a holiday?


 
Non EU country and a sum not worth chasing means they will do nothing.  How on earth would they be able to go after you.  

And no there is no system for registering people on databases at airports who've done a bun on their debts and their is zero chance of you being arrested. 

Advice, play tough with AIB, tell them you are going abroad (don't say where) that you'd like to pay back this debt but you are only going to do so if they stop applying interest and agree to you repaying x amount (amount you can afford) off the capital.  Get their agreement to this in writing.  You might seek the free help of Mabs in this negotiation but they are run off their feet.


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## belle1

Thank you Bronte for your advice, I got a bit scared when I was told I could be arrested at the airport by my "friend"....
AIB have already suspended the interest thank god so anything I pay is going off the capital.  But what annoys me about AIB, they are so quick to point the finger and make you feel like paying back this loan has to take over your life. Threatening me with a judgement...
I will pay what i can and if it comes to a point where i cant pay well so be it. 
I dont think I will tell AIB where I moving to...


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## bacchus

Bronte said:


> Non EU country and a sum not worth chasing means they will do nothing.



there is a loan of €14k but also a mortgage though OP did not specify amount left and equity. 
Bank will probably repossess house if no repayments are made.


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## belle1

bacchus said:


> there is a loan of €14k but also a mortgage though OP did not specify amount left and equity.
> Bank will probably repossess house if no repayments are made.



Hi Bacchus I have tennents  in paying some of the mortgage. Mortgage repayment is 1250 per nth and I get 580e rent. Bank are happy with this arrangement until may then It will be reviewed again. Mortgage balance is 250k with 4k arrears and in ne of about 100k.


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## Bronte

bacchus said:


> there is a loan of €14k but also a mortgage though OP did not specify amount left and equity.
> .


 
I missed the mortgage, but it's now clarified at 100K NE and Belle is on the dole and unable to meet full repayments. 

Belle, time to talk to the bank and ask them can you sell the house (if you sell the more likely the NE will be smaller). Don't tell them where you are going. There is no point in being unrealistic, a debt of at least 114K, plus costs, plus cost of moving abroad and then finding work means you'll never be paying this back. If you are going abroad I advise you to build up a nest egg (from your tenant's rent).  Everything that is discussed with the bank should ideally be in writing.  

Really it is time banks started to move and come to their senses on these messes.


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## belle1

Yes Bronte, I think you are right I need to speak to Ulster Bank. I hate dealing with them though..but it has to be done.

"If you are going abroad I advise you to build up a nest egg (from your tenant's rent). Everything that is discussed with the bank should ideally be in writing."

Bronte, will the bank not demand the money from me that I could potentially get from the tennents..Im not sure how I could build up a nest egg without the bank looking for the money?


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## Kev

belle1 said:


> Yes Bronte, I think you are right I need to speak to Ulster Bank. I hate dealing with them though..but it has to be done.
> 
> "If you are going abroad I advise you to build up a nest egg (from your tenant's rent). Everything that is discussed with the bank should ideally be in writing."
> 
> Bronte, will the bank not demand the money from me that I could potentially get from the tennents..Im not sure how I could build up a nest egg without the bank looking for the money?



Moving abroad and all that involves is very expensive financially and emotionally as well. Why not write to the bank and send them your income and priority outgoings and I mean all outgoing.  They should see that you have no money left to pay them,or very little left and if that is 5 euros a month then offer to pay that amount to the bank. There is not much they can do about it except repossess your home and that can be expensive for them and it will take a bit of time for them to do it.  If they make judgment on your home,  they will only get what you can afford to pay them out of your income. 

Make sure you either fax your budget statement or send it in a letter that you can get a receipt of delivery of it from the bank, as it is so easy for the the bank to say that they did not receive it.


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## Bronte

belle1 said:


> Bronte, will the bank not demand the money from me that I could potentially get from the tennents..Im not sure how I could build up a nest egg without the bank looking for the money?


 
Well they can demand you pay them the money, but demanding and getting are two different things.  I believe in paying one's debts.  But if one cannot then it's a different story.  In addition anyone who has to leave Ireland needs to think of themselves first and not the banks.  People need a nest egg for the next country.  Living expenses, rent, travelling costs etc.  

Maybe when your bank demands the rents you'll be able to explain your tenant has 'left'. 

Just curious how on earth had you planned to go abroad if you have no money?  You must have made some forethought on this?


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## belle1

Thanks everyone for your advice.

Bronte, thankfully I have really great support from family members in the country Im going to, they are living there.  Im not expecting them to support me financially forever but it was actually my family members abroad that suggested us moving there.  They want us try and have some sort of quality of life and maybe some opportunities will come our way. We wont know unless we go.  It def beats sitting  here in ireland day in day out with no job, nowhere to take my daughter, and just living a very basic life week to week.

Thankfully we are in a better position than most where we have the chance to try and start a new life abroad.

My heart goes out to all those people and families who are struggling day in day out.

Life is short and we cant just sit back and let the banks/government dictate our lives.


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## Catherine1

*I did a bunk on a French debt*

Well, sort of.... I moved back home to Ireland several years ago and had a small debt of a few thousand left to repay. I arranged with the French bank to make monthly payments via international transfer, gave them my new address and duly sent the first payment to them on receipt of their bill. The amount changed each month, so I had to wait for the bill to know how much to send them..... And after the first payment they simply stopped sending me their bills...... Need
Ess to say I didn't chase them begging to pay. It was only about 2 grand of a loan I had left. I did think it odd at the time as I was very compliant and co-operative with them, and fully intended to pay. I suppose the amount was so small they just couldn't be bothered once I had moved abroad......


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## belle1

Hi All
So it looks like our house is probably close to €150k neg equity, I looked at the new Revenue link in relation house valuations (for Property Tax).

Myself and hubby have been doing ALOT of talking over the last fews weeks and we have admitted to ourselves that our morgage is unsustainable.  I know we have tenents in at present but there is a chance that they may leave towards the end of this year. And even if the tenents stay longer, we are stil only going to be contributing 580e towards our mortgage payment, we are already in nearly 5k arrears and realistically we are never going to be able to pay off the mortgage in full.

We are moving abroad where we have family and much needed support.  We do not have jobs lined up but you never know what the future holds.  I know if we stay here we are doomed and this mess is begining to affect our mental health!

Any way, I will write a letter to the bank this week, but I would like opinions on what I should put in the letter.

Basically we do not want the house anymore.  The bank do not know we have tenents.  We have been giving the rent to the bank and they are happy with this payment until May.  

Now, some people on here may not agree with what we are going to do but we have decided to stop our dd to UB for mortgage and save the rental income for our nestegg abroad ( Bronte had suggested this in an earlier post).  Our family abroad have said they will help us financially where they can, but realisically we are both adults with a child, we  need to have some funds build up for travel expenses, living costs etc.

So, what should I say to the bank in the letter?

I was thinking to voluntary surender and ask them to write off the neg equity as the mortgage is unsustainable,  and we are going abroad....I doubt they will agree though..

Sorry for long post! Any idea's appreciated.


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## munchy

belle, are you going to the UK and will you declare formal bankruptcy? Or move abroad and let the judgement run its course and move on with new lives without going bankrupt? Just to say Im exploring both options and there are some serious considerations for both. If you search you will find excellent info on both. Like for example, at some point you must stop all correspondence with the bank if you want the debt to be cleared in 6 years and for them to stop chasing you. And if the nest egg is too big, you may have to relinquish it for bankruptcy. But if you are going further afield than the Uk you can probably just go and not look back.


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## Dermot

belle1. You and other posters are not going to be very happy with my post but anyway I will state my position.  
Where are you living now and how are you paying for this accommodation. How much social welfare do you and your husband receive per week.  It is not the case that I have no sympathy for your position but I still do not like the idea of where you take rent from a property that you owe a considerable amount of money on and not pay the bank with it and I am sure you wont declare it for tax purposes or pay off the €500 that you owe revenue or increase your payments to clear off the AIB loan.  What sort of country are we going to hand on to the next generation with this sort of thinking. I am not well off but always worked very hard and done without to meet repayments.  Yes there are circumstances where people cannot make repayments but pay what you can is how I think.  
If property prices improve in the next 10 years or so I can see where people who ran away from debts looking for legal avenues where they can have the property back.  The last sentence is not directed at anyone in particular.


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## belle1

Hi Munchy
We are going to a non eu country, we have some family members there.  Yes, there is super info on others threads/posts and thanks to all who have contributed the info.

I bet u and I are not the only ones with these massive live changing decisions to make but its imperative that I do the best I can in this awful situation and do whats right for my family. To be honest I think its going to be a case of going and not looking back.  Tks for your reply


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## belle1

Dermot thank you for your reply.

I have worked long and hard also since I was 19 (for a bank actually), and up to a while ago Never defaulted on repayments.  Sure, when you are in Full time permanent employment for most people their direct debits go out of their accounts to service loans etc and there is no problem.  But when you are made redundant for example from a job, or your hours are cut, or pay reduced, it doesnt take long for people to fall behind.

I believe in paying my way but I do not have the money and to be honest, we have an opportunity to start a new life so we are going to take it.

In relation to your questions re sw payments, Im not being sarcastic but whats the most you think we get? We get by week to week on this money.  And we have been paying the mortgage with the rental income up to now but sometimes needs be, we are putting our family first, saving a little bit of money to try and set up somewhere else.

You are talking about the next generation.  Yes its sad that Ireland is in this mess and that our kids are mixed up in it too but as I said I have the chance to TAKE my child out of this negative environment we are living in, and bring her up in hopefully what will be a happier and healthier environment.
Look, I know it may be morally wrong to alot of people, not to pay your debts but I dont think its fair that we and everyone else that is in an unsustainable environment should have to soldier on paying little bits here and there knowing deep down the dept is never going to be paid.

In relation to the tax owed to the Revenue - this is tax owed since 2008 apparently, which I knew nothing about until last week.  Revenue should have been collecting it from my credits. And yes, I will be declaring rents received to revenue, I have paid my Household charge and yes I am registered with PRTB, so best not to assume otherwise.


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## belle1

Thanks Cashier, you obviously guess where Im coming from...thanks for the kind words.  I hope we are doing the right thing and everything works out ok.


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## PaddyBloggit

belle1 .... best of luck with the move.

Post about how you're getting on with your new life when you get a chance ....


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## belle1

tks paddybloggit, I will def try and post, still another few months here though but hopefully we will be gone sooner rather than later.

BTW, its not an easy decision to make to just upsticks and move to a foreign country.  Plus, on an emotional level we are taking away a grandaughter, a cousin, who will be missed   dearly, she is only 14 months anyway,  Im kinda gone off point of this thread...Anyone out there that thinks we are taking the easy way out or running away from our depts, there is more to it than that!!


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## belle1

Just going back to my original post last night, I need to write the letter to bank this week.  Any opinions as to what I should put in the letter?


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## Bronte

Dermot said:


> belle1. You and other posters are not going to be very happy with my post but anyway I will state my position.
> .


 
I don't dislike your post and you're right to say what you did but Belle is not a won't pay, she's a can't pay. And that's a very important distinction.

There is no point staying indefinitely on the dole paying the bank sums that can never hope to repay a mortgage. What more do you think Belle could do? 

She has the option of a new county, a new life and hope for her child. She cannot go abroad without any money so in those circumstances taking a few months rent, particularly where there is a child involved well I don't see how that can be wrong. 

There is no tax on rental income under the rent a room scheme, so I don't think there is any liability there. From the way Belle posted I'm assuming the tenant's are in her home - not sure why she mentioned PRTB though. 

If she leaves it will cost the state ie taxpayers less as there will now be a saving of dole for 3 people. 


Belle, just write to the bank and tell them your mortgage is unsustainable and ask them to take it back. Banks are doing deals, you never know what they might come back with. 

In order to help other people like you it would be great if you can tell us how your dealings with the bank goes and also your move, emotions costs and experience.


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## belle1

Thanks Bronte, Ill get the letter done today, and will let you know the outcome.

I am not the only one in this position, so therefore Ill try and help others with info as much as I can.  

The Bank is UB, hopefully they will see sense.  Do you think I should tell them we are going abroad?


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## Bronte

So far we've not seen much sense from banks, hopefully with all the pressure that's on currently that may change. 

I think you should mention you're thinking off leaving. Don't say where.  Something like the debt is unsustainable, you have health issues due to the pressure and may leave Ireland.


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## Jim2007

belle1 said:


> Just going back to my original post last night, I need to write the letter to bank this week.  Any opinions as to what I should put in the letter?



If I understand you correctly, your plan is to stop paying over the money you are getting from renting the property and save it for covering your costs of moving abroad.  Is that correct?

My first question is how long to you expect to have to save before you move abroad?  Given you are moving a whole family and allowing for having some cash to cover your first few months there, I would expect around a year's worth of savings.

And what do you expect the bank to do during that time?  I would expect that they will discover that the property is rented, if they don't already know and try to get the rent paid over directly to them.

To expect that the bank will do noting while you save up the money to move abroad is a bit unrealistic I think...


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## Gardener

Belle1, you are absolutely making the right decision.  The fun and games have yet to begin in good old Eire when the repossessions starting kicking in.  Success and health to you and your family.


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## belle1

Tks gardener it's great to have support in these hard times. I have the letter drafted up for the bank. So lets see. We have thought long and hard about everything so yes I think it's the right decision.  We are going to voluntary surrender and ask bank to write off NE. We are trying to do it the best way without just disappearing


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## In Debt

I'm watching this thread with interest as I am in a similar position to the OP, though I have far greater arrears & personal debts.
The stress of my situation has been enormous & very detrimental to my health. I have not been able to cope with it all & so have buried my head in the sand to attempt to retain my sanity.

I plan to leave the country but I do want to find a workable solution rather than walk away entirely.   I am only now starting to attempt to deal with everything but it is overwhelming.

I look forward to reading how the OP progresses.


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## Bronte

Jim2007 said:


> To expect that the bank will do noting while you save up the money to move abroad is a bit unrealistic I think...


 
I disagree on this. The banks are not fast enough to catch people. Belle will probably do about 6 months to net her about 3 or 4K. This is a to a bank a derisory amount in the scheme of things, and it's not much for a family with kids to go abroad on. It may seem wrong but remember people have genuinely done everything to repay the banks, including depleting their savings. Once that is gone there is nothing left. So we should consider it as her recouping her savings in this instance. 

So that Belle is not afraid the bank will suddently swoop on the rent, they move really slowly, they need to get their debt department working on it, then their legal department then their solicitor's. And the Marp process also slows them down. In any case for most situations they do not even want to go down the route of trying to deal with tenant's. They go after people like the Killiney couple where there is serious property and serious rent. They are not going to go after Belle. And there is no point scaring her. 

I know of two banks where the rent is not being paid and so far all that is happening is the bank is monthly churning out their standard letters (one is sub prime and one is well known). There are people 'strategically defaulting' and becasue the banks don't want to repossess they are up to now ignoring the problem.  Basically people playing the system.  Belle is not in this category.  She has done her best and now needs to put her family first.


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## Dermot

I have sympathy for people in this situation but this family are getting SW and are going abroad to friends. I still cannot see how it is morally right or honest to be accepting an income from a house while there are repayments due on it and which will never be paid. The taxpayer here will have to take it up as we are ultimately propping the banks up.  Yes there are bigger fish doing the same and more. Where does all the excuses stop and what is the maximum amount that is okay to siphon off. 5k, 10k, 20k, 50k, 100k, 500k, > . I cannot bring myself to support or encourage this. Sorry and it is only my view?.


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## glic83

Dermot the OP is on social welfare, which just about covers expenses at best, the option to move and start fresh is available , she is going to need to get money together to get the new start , if she was to try and save for this new start from just the sw how many years would it take to get the money needed? If you were in the OP's situation what would you do?


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## Dermot

I do not come from a privileged back ground. I did not receive any 3rd level education. I do not have a high standard of life. I just have my strongly held beliefs about paying what I owe. Just suppose the OP had the house taken away in the morning how would they finance leaving the country.  A lot of my Aunts and Uncles left this country penniless to go to England and America where in a lot of cases they knew absolutely nobody and made it there. The travel rates were proportionally much higher then than now. A lot of foreigners came here to work and I know some of them personally and they did not have more than 1 weeks survival money and they got on.  OP is going to a non EU country but does not appear to have a plan for earning a living that we know of.  What would I do in OP's situation?.  I cannot answer that because I genuinely feel that we do not have the full story. I know quite a lot over the years about living on a tight budget and I am not as unsympathetic as I may sound. I am actually considered quite sympathetic when I come across very genuine situations.


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## Bronte

Dermot said:


> I cannot bring myself to support or encourage this. Sorry and it is only my view?.


 
And there's nothing wrong at all with your viewpoint Dermot. And it doesn't make you unsympathetic at all.


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## belle1

We just got a call from UB in relation to the letter we sent to them re VS on house.

The guy said that a relationship manager will be in contact with us in the next two weeks to arrange a meeting.  They mentioned meeting us in our house.  Does anyone know if we can meet at the local branch instead?

Houses in our area have recently sold for 100k or less.  We actually owe 255k plus arrears.  The guy on the phone mentioned maybe they can arrange an IO payment for the next 3/5 years but this still doesnt sort out our problem.  We will never get the mortgage paid off with such high NE.

I suppose Im just looking for some suggestions as to how to handle this meeting?  The bones of it is we do not want the house.  We are emigrating either way.  Also he said that we would be liable for the shortfall if house was sold.

Any opinions?


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## Time

You can have the meeting anywhere you choose. This is just strong-arm tactics from the bank. 



> Also he said that we would be liable for the shortfall if house was sold.


I wish them the best of luck collecting that from you in your new country. 

It is very important not to disclose where you intend going.


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## ciarank

belle1 said:


> We just got a call from UB in relation to the letter we sent to them re VS on house.
> 
> The guy said that a relationship manager will be in contact with us in the next two weeks to arrange a meeting.  They mentioned meeting us in our house.  Does anyone know if we can meet at the local branch instead?
> 
> Houses in our area have recently sold for 100k or less.  We actually owe 255k plus arrears.  The guy on the phone mentioned maybe they can arrange an IO payment for the next 3/5 years but this still doesnt sort out our problem.  We will never get the mortgage paid off with such high NE.
> 
> I suppose Im just looking for some suggestions as to how to handle this meeting?  The bones of it is we do not want the house.  We are emigrating either way.  Also he said that we would be liable for the shortfall if house was sold.
> 
> Any opinions?



Hi Belle,

I definitely wouldn't meet them at your house. Meet them at a hotel of your choice (anywhere in the country)! This provides a more neutral venue for both of you as having a bank official inside the four walls of your home would not give you a warm fuzzy feeling!

I know many people may disagree but don't for a single second feel bad about not paying back these unsustainable debts. You borrowed the money in good faith back in the boom years and your circumstances have drastically changed which no one could have foreseen including the tops advisers in the entire country/world! 

The banks have completely buried their heads in the sand on this issue and have not been one bit rational or reasonable in their dealings with the vast majority of distressed borrowers to date. So look after your own interests now and don't be a debt prisoner for the rest of your life.

Take a hard line with your bank when you meet them. Ask them for a repayment option that is sustainable long term like a debt for equity split mortgage arrangement. If he/she makes unreasonable demands then threaten to terminate the meeting.

Feel free to tell them which country you are going to but don't give them an address. And if they request surrender of the property, tell them you will seriously consider this if they agree not to pursue you for the balance.

The banks are unlikely to send a rent receiver in within about 6 months so you can keep the rent and put it towards your emigration costs. That money will mean a lot more to you than the banks so don't feel bad about it. You are in a desperate situation so do what you can to give yourself a leg up, you have already suffered enough. The bigger fools will commit themselves to a debt prison for the rest of their lives and get no thanks for it from anyone. The moral hazard brigade are in cuckoo land.....'pay back the banks at all costs'. Who wants to be on their death bed 20 years to early from stress but at least you have a 'clear conscience with your bank'!

Best of luck with your new life, don't look back! Let us know how you get on with your meeting.


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## belle1

Hi CiaranK

thanks a mill for your post, to be honest the other day when I got the call from the bank, I wasnt the better of it after! I started to feel like maybe this was all our fault and maybe we could pay a little bit more, but my husband and I sat down, went thru the figures and there is just no way this mortgage is sustainable.  Anyway, its just the intimidation I could feel on the phone, I know these guy are only doing their job....

Just one thing im not sure about....do u think we should tell the bank we have tenents in?  Up to this point we had been handing the rental income over to the bank but we are saving it now. Probably no point in telling them we are renting but Im scared they might get suspicious as we cancelled our TRS and they might wonder why we did that...ay thoughts


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## ciarank

belle1 said:


> Hi CiaranK
> 
> thanks a mill for your post, to be honest the other day when I got the call from the bank, I wasnt the better of it after! I started to feel like maybe this was all our fault and maybe we could pay a little bit more, but my husband and I sat down, went thru the figures and there is just no way this mortgage is sustainable.  Anyway, its just the intimidation I could feel on the phone, I know these guy are only doing their job....
> 
> Just one thing im not sure about....do u think we should tell the bank we have tenents in?  Up to this point we had been handing the rental income over to the bank but we are saving it now. Probably no point in telling them we are renting but Im scared they might get suspicious as we cancelled our TRS and they might wonder why we did that...ay thoughts



Hi Belle,

It saddens me to think you (and probably 100's of thousands of others in Ireland like you) are subjected to bully tactics by the banks, you are NOT at fault and don't feel guilty about it. We are living in unprecedented times and you were just like everyone else who bought their own home based on your economic circumstances at the time, ABSOLUTELY nothing wrong with that! You are already paying a HUGE price of having to emigrate, a price far too high to be paying anyway because of a lack of resolve of this crisis by banks and government. 

Take it from me that you have very little to fear when dealing with them especially the fact that you have made a decision to emigrate. YOU are now in the driving seat and will be able to dictate the pace of any future dealings with them. They will be very anxious to keep you on their side once they realize the game is up and you are off to better Pastures!

Don't even worry too much about them finding out you have tenants in situ, it will still take them a very long time to install rent receivers because they will exhaust all other avenues first. However don't volunteer the information to them and if you really do feel the need to tell them then just say you have a pile of other bills related to the property like insurance, cleaning, maintenance, letting fees, management fees, taxes etc etc. Anyway the level of rent if very small so really you don't have to worry about the banks on this. Yes they will try to push you to pay it over but there is absolutely nothing they can do immediately to you.

In actual fact, if I were you I would cancel the meeting and tell them to call you after Easter to reschedule. Then ignore their calls for about 2 weeks and then call them to reschedule. When eventually your meeting comes up, call them the day before and tell them you can't make it but you are will to go through everything with them over the phone. Play them at their own game because they are pretty damn good at it themselves. By engaging with them and corresponding with them you are not ignoring them.....just buying a little more time. KEEP THE RENT and don't be worrying. Put ALL your focus on your new life ahead and go for it!


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## Bronte

belle1 said:


> Up to this point we had been handing the rental income over to the bank but we are saving it now.
> 
> Probably no point in telling them we are renting but Im scared they might get suspicious as we cancelled our TRS and they might wonder why we did that


 
Belle aren't you living in the house with the tenant's so therefore you are legitimately claiming TRS, you are not a landlord as such in the normal meaning of that term, you are under the rent a room scheme.


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## belle1

Hi Bronte

No we moved out of the house, its not under rent a room so we had to cancel the TRS.


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## Time

They may not even know you cancelled TRS.


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## belle1

CiaranK

yes you are right we are paying a HIGH price, having to emigrate, but I know we will have a better quality of life.
I know some people might not agree to us keeping the rent, but in the grand scheme of things its not hugh money and we wont be long spending it with relocation costs etc.  Is not like we are defaulting on purpose and saving the money.

I think I would rather deal with them over the phone, so its possible I will reschedule the meetings etc to earns us a bit of extra time.

thanks for the idea.


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## Time

Get yourself a cheap pay as you go mobile and give them that number as a contact. Then you can decide when you wish to talk to them.


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## ciarank

Time said:


> They may not even know you cancelled TRS.



Totally agree, I would bet my life savings that they wouldn't even notice the TRS being cancelled....


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## ciarank

belle1 said:


> CiaranK
> 
> yes you are right we are paying a HIGH price, having to emigrate, but I know we will have a better quality of life.
> I know some people might not agree to us keeping the rent, but in the grand scheme of things its not hugh money and we wont be long spending it with relocation costs etc.  Is not like we are defaulting on purpose and saving the money.
> 
> I think I would rather deal with them over the phone, so its possible I will reschedule the meetings etc to earns us a bit of extra time.
> 
> thanks for the idea.



The people you are referring to who 'might not agree to us keeping the rent' are almost certainly not faced with the dire situation you find yourself in. I wonder how their 'moral judgement' would change so quickly if they had leave the country they grew up in. It's so easy for people to sit on the sidelines pointing the finger and passing judgement. I would love to see if they would 'pay back every penny they owe the banks regardless' if they were in the same situation.

Rid yourself of any guilt or regret you may have, put it behind you and don't let anyone ever convince you otherwise! You have only one life...don't let your bank dictate how you are going to live that. They made a commercial decision to lend to you and it didn't work out....tough, that's how business works. FYI....if you were in the US in the same situation, you would just hand the keys back and that would be the end of it. A few months later you would be well on your way to rebuilding your life again!

By the way, how much time would you like to keep the bank off your back for, 6 months, 12 months?  There are many ways to 'kick the can down the road'.....God knows, the banks themselves are the best of all at doing that!


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## belle1

By the way, how much time would you like to keep the bank off your back for, 6 months, 12 months?  There are many ways to 'kick the can down the road'.....God knows, the banks themselves are the best of all at doing that![/QUOTE]

We are hoping to leave in Sep/Oct this year.  But from reading other posts etc, the banks seem to be very slow to put arrangements, voluntary surrenders etc in place.  Does any one know any timeframes on VS process.  Maybe it varies from bank to bank...

BTW this website is great, thanks for the ongoing support. Its great to get some perspective on these issues


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## ciarank

So you need about 6 or 7 months......that's buckets of time. Very little will happen inside that timeframe even if they don't receive any money. Don't surrender the property until you're defo ready to leave.

You don't need to wait for them to issue you their surrender forms, just write out a 1 page letter outlining you can no longer repay your mortgage and you wish to surrender the property back to the bank. Be sure to state that you understand your legal obligations to the bank etc or they won't accept it. Oh yeah and stick a set of Keys in with it too....that's why it's referred to as 'Jingle Mail'!


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## belle1

Update

We met with the bank today.  They told us "sure you can VS the house but you will be responsible for the shortfall, we will need to put a payment plan in place, and if that is not possible, we will get a Judgement against you".

We are due to go on a tracker rate soon so they have suggested we rent out the house and just pay interest only.  I told them we are possibly emigrating.  The IO payment will be considerably low when we go on tracker, maybe 400/500 euro per month, but this will be just the interest we are paying.  We will not be servicing the capital repayment.  If we rent the house, we have to consider all the costs associated with renting so we are still not sure if this would be the best decision for us.

So our options are VS, emigrate and ignore the shortfall or rent out the house, pay interest only for probably 2/3 years if the bank allow it but we will still have the capital to deal with, deal with the expenses/tax etc that come with being a landlord and hope that the house prices increases in the next 5 years or so.

Even if the house prices went up in our area,  if we were to sell in a couple of years I dont think we would break even and we would still be left with a shortfall.

Not sure what to do now.


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## belle1

Thinking about this all weekend. Think it's best to stick to our plans to VS house and emigrate.

We calculated that we have paid over 90k over the last six years and the balance on mortgage is pretty much still the same. Shocking! Needless to say we are on a rate of over 6%.


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## Bronte

belle1 said:


> Update
> 
> We are due to go on a tracker rate soon so they have suggested we rent out the house and just pay interest only.
> 
> We will not be servicing the capital repayment.
> 
> If we rent the house, we have to consider all the costs associated with renting so we are still not sure if this would be the best decision for us.
> 
> .


 
I think you got it spot on in that post. Fair enough one might think that they will allow you pay interest only, but then what, they change their mind in 2 or 3 years, and it's still not dealing with the capital, no one is certain that house price increases will wipe out the NE.

And in relation to being a landlord, that's certainly not for everybody, plus you'll be abroad. And I'd hazard a guess that it would actually only cost you the way the government has structured taxes on properties currently. It's very hard to break even never mind make a profit and on top of that one has to deal with the lack of capital appreciation.


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## belle1

Thanks Bronte.

The expression they used with us the other day was " sure just kick the can down the road for another while and hopefully things will change" 

To me there is only one winner in this scenario "the bank"


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## Bronte

belle1 said:


> The expression they used with us the other day was " sure just kick the can down the road for another while and hopefully things will change"


 
You're not the first person who has mentioned banks saying this.  They really don't get it.  Kicking the can down the road hasn't been of any use to a load of people up to now and if that is still their attitude despite reams of newsprint stating banks are really tackling the mortgage arrears crisis and the term 'sustainability.  Well one would give up.


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## Negotiator

belle1 said:


> Thanks Bronte.
> 
> The expression they used with us the other day was " sure just kick the can down the road for another while and hopefully things will change"
> 
> To me there is only one winner in this scenario "the bank"



This is just typical of the bank's mentality. I would simply kick that can back to the banks with your keys inside it and be done with them. When you're gone for a few years with absolutely no contact, then they will have a greater appetite to cut you a more favorable deal!


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## Gerry Canning

belle1 said:


> Thanks Cashier, you obviously guess where Im coming from...thanks for the kind words. I hope we are doing the right thing and everything works out ok.


No point in leaving Bank to repossess. STRONGLY suggest call into them and TELL THEM your decision and IMPRESS on them that you want to assist them in disposing/sorting the Mortgage. Tell them you are aware of shortfall but the LEAST you can do is assist them in disposal of the house. In this way you are as helpful AS A POOR SITUATION permits.
If they don,t accept your help, do what you must do to protect your family.


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## a-tax-payer

Hi Belle1,

Like Dermot, your probably not going to like what I say either, but i'll offer my opinion anyway.

There seem to be two different items.
The friend loan - Its always easy to look back in hindsight and say it was a bad decision, and I myself have had loaned money to friends for much, much, much smaller amounts and had difficulty in getting it back. That was my own money and my own poor judgment and I didn't  borrow for it. SO I paid the consequences which i fully accept. is there any legal or otherwise trail to getting that money from that "friend" ?  are they still your friend? it sounds like probably not. Can you force that person to sell whatever asset was used with the money?

The Mortgage - 
You seem like a good person, and I can understand that you want to do the best for your family. You said you believe in paying your way but still want to take the rental money, stop paying anything towards the mortgage and do a runner to another country, leaving huge debts for the rest of us to pick up the tab. 
What if we all had this attitude? the country would be an economic wasteland.
There also seem to be unpaid taxes since 2008 from the rental property.

In fairness, you did sign up willingly to the mortgage (and the other loan). So there should be consequences of some sort for you. I know having to leave the country might be considered a consequence but I mean financial consequences.

As a taxpayer who will have to live here after you leave, Its not fair on the rest of us who will have to undergo further fiscal measures because of this action.

It should be an option for the bank to roll up the total debt, sell the house, get what they can and work out something with you. any debt writeoff should go on your ICB record and stay there for 20 years, maybe they can let you get settled in the new country and once you find work and your feet you could make some payments.
It might not be feasible to get every penny back, but we need to show the prudent taxpayer who didnt overborrow, who lives within their means and who will have to continue to pay taxes here some value for money and reward for being prudent.


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## Time

Trying to get blood from stones springs to mind. 

20 years on the ICB? What is this? Stalinist Russia? 

Is it any wonder that people flee Ireland to non EU states to escape this oppression?


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## Luternau

> It should be an option for the bank to roll up the total debt, sell the house, get what they can and work out something with you. any debt writeoff should go on your ICB record and stay there for 20 years, maybe they can let you get settled in the new country and once you find work and your feet you could make some payments.



OMG-you propose a longer debt sentence than the courts can impose for murder! Since when was it a worse to borrow money, assisted by incompetence at bank credit committee levels than to commit a major crime?  And I amy add that once released from prison, there is no further restitution demanded by the state.

Tell me you dont think that the problems we as a country face were not caused and willfully assisted by the banks? It is they that should have to continue to pay the state back every single cent that we lent them to stay in business, and this should include all the amounts the banks write off, and such write offs should not be allowed to be used to lower their tax bill. If this takes 50 or 100 yrs, so be it.


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## munchy

Time said:


> Trying to get blood from stones springs to mind.
> 
> 20 years on the ICB? What is this? Stalinist Russia?
> 
> Is it any wonder that people flee Ireland to non EU states to escape this oppression?



I agree. The Irish debt troubles are not an accurate picture of many defaulters ability and willingness to pay. Many folk (myself included) would have had impeccable credit records, paid every parking fine and had a perfect record for decades - and suddenly find this one blip in our history totally overturn all previous efforts. Its probably why so many people have sleepless nights worrying -because getting into this sort of debt would have been their worst possible nightmare come true.


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## belle1

A-tax-payer

I have been down the legal route with my "friend". I won my case, I thought great! But no, this person appealed and got a witness to lie for him in court! I lost leaving me with 4k legal exps. So yes before I had to make the decision to emigrate I've have exhausted every avenue to try and sort out this mess but the years are passing by and I'm taking the risk for the sake of a better life for my family


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## a-tax-payer

Hi All

Just getting a chance to reply to you all now.

@ Time/Luternau/munchy - ok i might have jumped the gun a little with 20 years on the ICB, perhaps there should be different degrees of severity imposed.
 It just is very unfair to all us honest, paying, working PAYE taxpayers be saddled with this type of debt. 
What about the prudent taxpayer who didnt buy a house during the credit bubble ? What about the renters? what about the people who live within their means and may have bought a reasonable property and over the years made sensible decisions and overpaid their mortgage leaving them mortgage free? Their property is worth considerably less now too - but no one is clambering to give them a refund, even though they may have lost tens of thousands of euros.

All I am asking for is fairness for all working taxpayers including those who didnt get into debt. Dont they deserve to be rewarded for making prudent financial decisions?

There will be debt writedowns, I cant prevent this from happening. But those people should have to face some form of penalty. There are two parties involved so yes the banks will also have to suffer too.

@belle1
while i dont agree with your actions
All i can say is good luck with the move.
our justice system is also in a shocking state and i'd love to shake it up and impose real justice for serious crimes.


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## Bronte

a-tax-payer said:


> perhaps there should be different degrees of severity imposed.
> 
> It just is very unfair


 
Life's unfair, but we need to get the country moving again.  When people are in unsustainable situations, then debt writedowns have to happen in a capitalist society.  (unless you're very rich or a bank of course - then you socialise the debts).  

You're suggesting that those in debt should be severely punished, for what reason to make us compliant tax payers feel better.  That will do nobody any good.  Do you want to bring us back to Dickensian England?


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## Negotiator

It's amazing how a whole bunch of 'tax payers' are suddenly so concerned about people paying their debts back to a bank. If the government didn't make such a stupid decision to socialize all the banks debts, would these people still be so worried about it?  My guess is they wouldn't give a toss!

As hard and all as it is, people should forget about the fact that the tax payers own the banks because it is clouding people's judgement on what the right course of action is to get the economy moving again. While the 'moral hazard brigade' are so busy trying to make sure that debtors and entrepreneurs are 'punished' for trying to do the thing that most people do in a society which is buy your own home and make a living by setting up businesses etc, the economy won't recover.

Those (overly conservative tight ar3e types) who are constantly gloating about the fact that they never borrowed a penny from the banks and didn't spend any money in the boom years other than on food and water, need to bear in mind that if everyone was to do that we would have no economy at all! Why do you think the UK & US have developed a system that frees up over indebted people in a straight forward manner, because it actually benefits the economy in the long term to have these people functioning properly in the economy. People take risks, people make mistakes, this is a normal part of a modern economy.

It is crazy that the OP finds himself in a situation where he has to leave Ireland because he is saddled with debt that he most likely will never be able to repay anyway. He and many others like him should not have to do this, just stop and think about his situation for a minute and see how morally wrong it is to be pushing our very own citizens out of the country. The Irish begrudgery mentality is alive and well. Maybe we should round up all the debtors and throw them in jail like they did in the 19th centruy, that would surely keep the moral hazard brigade happy!


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## a-tax-payer

No I dont want to bring us into the dark ages, I know that in a modern capitalist society, writedowns are going to be a fact of life. Both the banks and the borrowers are both to blame for reckless lending and irresponsible borrowing.

What alot of people here dont seem to agree with is the borrower accepting ANY responsibility for their PART in this problem. It cannot be just an option to pay your mortgage.

Moral hazard is a real concern and shouldn't be brushed under the carpet. Fianna Fail made I agree made a stupid decision to nationalize Anglo and Irish nationwide. What about the shareholders who have lost everything in the "pillar banks" with many job losses. 

Those "overly conservative tight ar3se types" who live and manage their money well and dont spend it all on tat or get pi33ed every weekend, who dont borrow to buy brand new imported cars they dont need are displaying exactly the right culture we need to encourage. Those "boom years" never really existed, it was a credit bubble in which many lived to excess and spent money they never had.
The US and UK are not exactly the economies I'd want to living up to. Both are swimming in unsustainable debt and can get away with it as they have their own currency and interest rates but this cant go on forever.

I cant believe that there are not more people out there that dont hold the borrower to blame in some degree of culpability.


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## Luternau

> I cant believe that there are not more people out there that dont hold the borrower to blame in some degree of culpability.



Some (but not all) of those in serious financial trouble bought modest houses to live in.  Then they lost their jobs through no-fault of their own and cant pay what they borrowed. They want to-but can't.
So, your solution-keep them here, and in penury to the banks for decades. What a great solution!


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## Bronte

a-tax-payer said:


> I cant believe that there are not more people out there that dont hold the borrower to blame in some degree of culpability.


 
Of course we blame them but I'd equally blame the government, the bad banking regulations, the regulator, the central bank and the bankers. All of those are receiving no punishment whatsoever, so why concentrate on the hapless borrower who hasn't a hope. It's not as if the loss of everything isn't punishment enough. People who are losing their homes, moving abroad, marriages breaking up, having to relocate, living on the dole. How do you not see this. 

You've suggested at least 20 years punishment, which is a lot longer than most murderers get and you've not shown how this would a) be good for society b) be good for the borrower c) get the economy moving again d) prevent this mess happening again.

If you want however to discuss jailing bankers et al for 20 years, then I'd be agreeable to that, but that's never going to happen.


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## a-tax-payer

The previous government (which helped bring about this mess) were voted out of government and shouldnt be back in power for another 10 years at least.
Some Banks have been shut down and others nationalised. 
Shareholders were completely wiped out and lost all money invested.
Many staff in banking, lending, insurance have and will loose their jobs. 
The previous regulator was asleep at the wheel and should be in prison though i'll give you that.
People deciding to move abroad and their personal relationship status are no concern of mine or the state - we're not in China and people have the right to move where they want and marry or divorce if they want.

I've not suggested anywhere that anyone should get 20 years in prison for home loan default. 
I did suggest that their credit record should be on the ICB for 20 years for serious defaulters to prevent them (and protect lenders) from engaging in wreckless lending and borrowing in the future. If I cause a car accident, I expect my premium to rise as I am a then a greater risk - the same rule should apply.

Isnt this common sense??


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## Negotiator

a-tax-payer said:


> I did suggest that their credit record should be on the ICB for 20 years for serious defaulters to prevent them (and protect lenders) from engaging in wreckless lending and borrowing in the future.


Would you consider a person who borrows a relatively moderate sum of  money that's well within their capacity to repay the loan at that time, wreckless lending?  Because that's what the vast majority of distressed borrowers did but either lost their jobs or took a massive and unprecedented pay cut. Why do you want to vilify these people?

This category of people shouldn't be confused with large scale developers borrowing hundreds of millions of Euro building apartments that weren't needed!


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## Luternau

This is gone way off topic. 
@ataxpayer, if you want to rant on an on about moral hazard, blame etc, start a new thread about that or post in one that's actually about that.


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## belle1

Hi All

Just a little update.

So we decided instead of leaving it up to the bank to repossess or us voluntarily surrendering the property, as Gerry Canning suggested in a previous post, we are now assisting the bank to dispose of the property.  We have it up for sale and we are hoping it will go sale agreed this week.

The max we will get for the house is €65k!! Mortgage balance with arrears now probably 259k. It just shows that back in 2007 the house prices were way over priced.....how could the market value decrease that much!!!....anyway thats for another thread!

So we are still planning on leaving in October. The bank still have not agreed to us selling, actually we cannot get any answers from them at all and I have written to them a couple of times now detailing our plans.

All going well, they will allow us sell, they can take whatever money we get for it and they can sing for the balance!!

I know is a very blase attitude to have but tey have left us with no choice.

One question though, does anyone know if they can force bankruptcy on us?  Somebody said that to me the other day and if they do force bankruptcy, that if and when we come back to ireland from abroad we will have to deal with the bankruptcy then even if its 10 or 12yrs later?


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## goingforgold

> One question though, does anyone know if they can force bankruptcy on us? Somebody said that to me the other day and if they do force bankruptcy, that if and when we come back to ireland from abroad we will have to deal with the bankruptcy then even if its 10 or 12yrs later?


 
Good question. I too know people that are leaving a house and a large debt behind them to go abroad and earn a lot of money for a few years. Will the debt just disappear over a period of time, ie is there a specific period where they can come back to the country and not be liable for this debt?


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## belle1

Update:

Sale agreed, bank still not aggreeing to the sale.  They will send a valuer to the house to see if its sold at market value.

They want us to send in another financial statement of our means.  This is no problem, we are both on the dole, we have receipts etc.

But...as I said in previous posts, I did not tell the bank that we had rented out the house.  As it happens the tenents are moving out in two weeks.  They had been putting a weekly amount of rent into our account and now the bank wants to see our bank stats.
They will probably question what the "lodgement" is, and Im jst not sure what way to handle this with the bank so has anyone any advice?


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## Starbuck

Hi Belle, I've been reading your story with interest. Has there been any more progress?

I can't give you specific advice on your questions, but here's what I think. You sell your house for the best price you can get. You impress on the Bank that you are leaving and this is the only deal in town. They will probably insist you accept responsibility for the shortfall. If that's how it is - maybe the best way forward is to play along with that and agree. They'll ask for a payment plan or whatever....so what, you have no money.
The house is sold, the mortgage is 'closed' and the remainder becomes an *unsecured* debt. That's my understanding - the experts may correct me.
You then leave and stop paying.
They can't pursue you for an unsecured debt.
End of story.


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## so-crates

Starbuck said:


> They can't pursue you for an unsecured debt.
> End of story.



That isn't correct Starbuck of course a lender can pursue an unsecured debt. Secured simply means that you have offered them something of value (e.g. A house) that they will be entitled to have ownership of if you cannot pay.


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## Jim2007

Starbuck said:


> You sell your house for the best price you can get. You impress on the Bank that you are leaving and this is the only deal in town.



The OP can't sell the house unless the bank agrees as they hold it as security!




Starbuck said:


> They can't pursue you for an unsecured debt.



Yes indeed they can! Whether or not it is worth their while to do so or not is another matter.


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## Negotiator

belle1 said:


> Update:
> 
> Sale agreed, bank still not aggreeing to the sale.  They will send a valuer to the house to see if its sold at market value.
> 
> They want us to send in another financial statement of our means.  This is no problem, we are both on the dole, we have receipts etc.
> 
> But...as I said in previous posts, I did not tell the bank that we had rented out the house.  As it happens the tenents are moving out in two weeks.  They had been putting a weekly amount of rent into our account and now the bank wants to see our bank stats.
> They will probably question what the "lodgement" is, and Im jst not sure what way to handle this with the bank so has anyone any advice?


It's for this very reason I wouldn't bother my Barney on doing the dirty work for your bank when this is how they respond. Simply send in a surrender document which you can type up yourself (if your banks don't want to supply you with one) and stick a set of keys in the envelope with it. The game is up when the bank receive this and you'll effectively be done with them as far as you're concerned!


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## Starbuck

Fair enough, perhaps my terminology is wrong. I guess it hinges on the term ' pursue'. If Belle leaves and they don't know where he/she goes to - how much pursuing can they do? And since the debt is unsecured, if they find him/her, what can they do to recover in a foreign country outside the EU? Going through foreign Courts could be a waste of time in the end, and if they have no assets in their name - there's nothing to sequester. 

That sale price does seem very low though, and maybe it would be better to simply surrender the property to the Bank and let their liquidator find a better price. I'm not sure how that would work out - but if they are blocking the sale, maybe it's the only alternative.

What about Credit Ratings? Is there a Global Register which follows you around the planet?


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## Kev

Hopefully belle1 will not have to use bank for a while after this is been sorted out. I lived through 2 recessions in the UK the first one was in the 70's with the 3 day week for workers and fortunately I did not have a mortgage back then.  In the late 80's with the recession then I did have a mortgage but luckily I was in a reasonable good secure employment and got through it, but it is something I would not want to do again in a hurry. 

  At the end of the day I would rather deal with a landlord than a bank any day, it is far better for your mental state of your health as stress is not good for anyones wellbeing and that is all that matters.  

Have a look at your mortgage deeds and see what it says about renting out your property, if it does not mention anything about rent it out your home then it maybe OK.


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## Time

> What about Credit Ratings? Is there a Global Register which follows you around the planet?


There is no such thing.


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## belle1

Update:

2 years abroad now, no contact from the bank re the shortfall on the mortgage, my solicitor checked this for me but they still have four years to act under the statute of limitations so who knows....

So far so good!


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## Bronte

Great to hear from you Belle, hope you've now well settled in.  It's always interesting to find out what happened to people thanks for coming back to share. Whatever happened to the house?


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## belle1

We sold the house for the bank instead of walking away from it,  they were happy to let us deal with that end of it.  There was a shortfall, the bank said we needed to come to some arrangement but we never heard anything after, never got paper work etc


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## Bronte

Did they put that in writing to you Belle?  Were you allowed pay the solicitor and auctioneer from the proceeds by the bank?

Obvoiusly once you were gone abroad they decided not to pursue it as they can't find you.  BUT and this is for everybody, (and I've mentioned it on here before) after the 80's bubble in the UK the banks let things lie, but once people were back on their feet, and earning and back into property, and just before statutory time limits to pursue were up, the banks came back, so be careful everybody on your timings.


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