# Irish Doctor with lots of debt



## Irish

I wonder if someone can advise me on this.

I am a newly graduated doctor from medicine in Ireland. The course was extremely expensive and created in a time when doctors were paid a lot more than they are now. In total, I have €106k unsecured debt to a single Irish bank to be paid back over 10 years and I have another secured loan from previous study for €25k over 5 years.

Therefore it works out at: 
Unsecured: €1100/mo
Secured: €550/mo

If I move to the UK I will be earning £32,000 in my first year and closer to £40,000 in my second. Is my income too high for a judge to consider bankruptcy? I also wonder if they will consider future wage increases in their decision? 

Many thanks.

P.s. we do not have a student loan facility in Ireland that is govt backed. All of these student loans are directly from private banks and are considered private loans.


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## Dr.Debt

Going bankrupt as you set out on your new career as a Doctor is not a great idea in my opinion. The Official Receiver is likely to seek an attachment on your income for three years (if bankrupt in UK) which means that you will need to pay a large portion of your income to the OR during this period. Your credit rating will also be shot and your chances of getting a mortgage anytime soon will be next to none. You're unlikely to get much sympathy from anybody going bankrupt, as a doctor.

I would take a different route,  negotiate with the banks to spread out the repayments over a longer time period so that monthly payments are manageable. As your income increases this monthly repayment will pale into insignificance.

Best of luck, Doctor.


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## frandalton

In my view the Insolvency Act 2012 soon to come into law is what may solve your problem. The requirement for insolvency is that you cannot pay your debts as they fall due.  Bankruptcy only requires you to have liabilities in excess of assets of €20.000 under the new Insolvency Act.

I would suggest you either have your bank agree to a longer term on the loans which is sustainable or look at the insolvency laws. A Debt Settlement agreement could work for the 105k unsecured loan and the Insolvency Practitioners should be in place shortly.



http://www.francisdalton.com


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## Palerider

Let me see if I have this right, your Banks assisted you with sundry essential costs right to the conclusion of your education, you are now a qualified medical Doctor, you are now looking at ways to get out of these debts and let the Banks carry the can. If these are State owned Banks then you really mean the taxpayer to carry the costs of your education, if foreign owned you want the shareholders and stakeholders to carry these costs but certainly not yourself.

You should see a Doctor yourself, that is unbelievable, what a cheek. You know that so many have gone down this path before you, they leave 3rd level with a qualification which can set them up for a successful career and almost all qualify with debt. They work off that debt and have been grateful to whomever assisted them, Banks or family.

Simply put you need to honour your commitments, approach your lenders and come to an arrangement with both Banks to make repayment sustainable and to allow you to live, as the years progress your salary increases, you have alluded to this in your post, you will be able to pay back more in 3 years time than the first year, allow for this with your negotiations, there is no magic solution, you have to work this off, without the Banks support you would not have made it.

The advice offered by the previous poster is nothing more than an advertisement, treat it as such, it does nothing to assist you. Protect your credit record at all costs, availing of insolvency or bankrupcy is poor advice indeed to a young professional just starting out.


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## STEINER

I don't know anything about the qualifiying criteria for bankruptcy.

Your UK income post-graduation is relatively low for years 1 and 2, but this is only the start of your career and your earnings.  Presumably your loans were given to you by the banks as you were seen and are seen as a sure bet to repay them in full.  You will be perfectably able to repay these loans as a medical doctor from your earnings from years 1 to year 10, if you are not, there is no hope for the rest of us.


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## Irish

Relax people. I fully intend on paying it if at all possible, that's for sure. I also agree with the point of view that they lent the money to me so that I could get this qualification and the obviously moral and good thing to do is to pay it back.

I am simply checking out all eventualities so I know the full picture. It also may give me some wiggle room in negotiations with the bank. With this amount of debt the only responsible thing to do is be aware of all your options before you negotiate with them.

Many thanks for all the helpful replies.


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## Bonaparte

*+1*



palerider said:


> let me see if i have this right, your banks assisted you with sundry essential costs right to the conclusion of your education, you are now a qualified medical doctor, you are now looking at ways to get out of these debts and let the banks carry the can. If these are state owned banks then you really mean the taxpayer to carry the costs of your eduction, if foreign owned you want the shareholders and stakeholders to carry these costs but certainly not yourself.
> 
> You should see a doctor yourself, that is unbelievable, what a cheek. You know that so many have gone down this path before you, they leave 3rd level with a qualification which can set them up for a successful career and almost all qualify with debt. They work off that debt and have been grateful to whomever assisted them, banks or family.
> 
> Simply put you need to honour your commitments, approach your lenders and come to an arrangement with both banks to make repayment sustainable and to allow you to live, as the years progress your salary increases, you have alluded to this in your post, you will be able to pay back more in 3 years time than the first year, allow for this with your negotiations, there is no magic solution, you have to work this off, without the banks support you would not have made it.
> 
> The advice offered by the previous poster is nothing more than an advertisement, treat it as such, it does nothing to assist you. Protect your credit record at all costs, availing of insolvency or bankrupcy is poor advice indeed to a young professional just starting out.


 +1


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## landlord

palerider said:


> let me see if i have this right, your banks assisted you with sundry essential costs right to the conclusion of your education, you are now a qualified medical doctor, you are now looking at ways to get out of these debts and let the banks carry the can. If these are state owned banks then you really mean the taxpayer to carry the costs of your eduction, if foreign owned you want the shareholders and stakeholders to carry these costs but certainly not yourself.
> 
> You should see a doctor yourself, that is unbelievable, what a cheek. You know that so many have gone down this path before you, they leave 3rd level with a qualification which can set them up for a successful career and almost all qualify with debt. They work off that debt and have been grateful to whomever assisted them, banks or family.
> 
> Simply put you need to honour your commitments, approach your lenders and come to an arrangement with both banks to make repayment sustainable and to allow you to live, as the years progress your salary increases, you have alluded to this in your post, you will be able to pay back more in 3 years time than the first year, allow for this with your negotiations, there is no magic solution, you have to work this off, without the banks support you would not have made it.
> 
> The advice offered by the previous poster is nothing more than an advertisement, treat it as such, it does nothing to assist you. Protect your credit record at all costs, availing of insolvency or bankrupcy is poor advice indeed to a young professional just starting out.




+1000


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## MrEarl

Palerider said:


> Let me see if I have this right, your Banks assisted you with sundry essential costs right to the conclusion of your education, you are now a qualified medical Doctor, you are now looking at ways to get out of these debts and let the Banks carry the can. If these are State owned Banks then you really mean the taxpayer to carry the costs of your eduction, if foreign owned you want the shareholders and stakeholders to carry these costs but certainly not yourself.
> 
> You should see a Doctor yourself, that is unbelievable, what a cheek. You know that so many have gone down this path before you, they leave 3rd level with a qualification which can set them up for a successful career and almost all qualify with debt. They work off that debt and have been grateful to whomever assisted them, Banks or family.
> 
> Simply put you need to honour your commitments, approach your lenders and come to an arrangement with both Banks to make repayment sustainable and to allow you to live, as the years progress your salary increases, you have alluded to this in your post, you will be able to pay back more in 3 years time than the first year, allow for this with your negotiations, there is no magic solution, you have to work this off, without the Banks support you would not have made it.
> 
> The advice offered by the previous poster is nothing more than an advertisement, treat it as such, it does nothing to assist you. Protect your credit record at all costs, availing of insolvency or bankrupcy is poor advice indeed to a young professional just starting out.




*One of the best posts I've read on this website, in quite some time - very well written & extremely important to show there are still people out there who beleive in borrowers repaying their debts (if financially able).*


Hey Doc, 

if you don't want to pay the cost of having your qualifcation, then surrender your qualifaction as part of your negotiations to have the debt written off  

...It's people like you, who ultimately make the Banks and their staff more reluctant to assist or believe the genuine hardship cases !

Your follow up post was not convincing by the way ....


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## Luternau

Irish said:


> Relax people. I fully intend on paying it if at all possible, that's for sure. I also agree with the point of view that they lent the money to me so that I could get this qualification and the obviously moral and good thing to do is to pay it back.
> 
> I am simply checking out all eventualities so I know the full picture. It also may give me some wiggle room in negotiations with the bank. With this amount of debt the only responsible thing to do is be aware of all your options before you negotiate with them.
> 
> Many thanks for all the helpful replies.



While not knowing the ins and outs of your own case I do find it strange that you would want to be considering options to default on loans? Clearly over the course of your career as a medical professional, you could pay these back? What if you needed a loan to start a private practice? Having being declared bankrupt would be something that could make getting loans difficult in the future.

There was a time when people borrowed money and would pay it back. What has happened that some that can, would rather not?

Anyway, it may not be all plain sailing in the UK. I may be wrong, but according to this

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/england/debt_e/debt_help_with_debt_e/bankruptcy.htm

•even when you are no longer bankrupt, there are some debts such as court fines and student loans that will never be written off.

Then again, you may be thankful that we dont have a formal state student loan programme here.


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## manninp2

Why don't you just talk to your bank.

As a doctor you're the closest thing they have to a sure bet these days.


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## Cantalia

I am with paler idea, bronte et al on this one. I just sighed with disappointment reading it. This is an example of the very lack of integrity in professionals that helped bring us to this awful place in the first place. Doctor, don't bother protesting with a reply. You saddened me.


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## TommyB

Cantalia said:


> I am with paler idea, bronte et al on this one. I just sighed with disappointment reading it. This is an example of the very lack of integrity in professionals that helped bring us to this awful place in the first place. Doctor, don't bother protesting with a reply. You saddened me.



It's the culture that has been fostered here in Ireland the past few years. Bailouts for all. It's never about what is the right, honourable thing to do. It's about what's is best for you and you alone.


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## JayPee

Dr,I really think you should read some of the posts from people that are in a real desperate place right now and searching for some glimmer of light at the end of the long dark tunnel, count yourself lucky there is a light for you.


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## MrEarl

TommyB said:


> ...It's about what's is best for you and you alone.



Perhaps thats where many of us having been making a mistake .. because if it were a case of doing whats best for me and me alone, I'd be on a one way flight far far away from this little country of ours 

... truth be told, a sense of loyalty and pride keeps me here along with thankfully, a decent job and a couple of loved ones who are actually glad to see me each day when I get home from work.


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## drrkpd

I think the important things here are the numbers not the person.Loans are 1100 plus 550 so are 1650 per month. Overtime is now practically non- existent even though doctors are expected to do extra hours without pay.
So what does a junior doctor take home per month net and what is left for living expenses after that?? 
Irish is clearly very concerned about living on these figures or he would not be contemplating bankruptcy? Perhaps he can be advised that he has enough to live on according to the PIA figures for a single person who needs a car and therefore can be reassured he doesn't have to even consider bankruptcy? 
Or is he correct that the numbers don't add up? 
Everyone else is asked to fill in a full personal financial statement perhaps Irish can as well?
Certainly when he approached the banks for funding over 4 years ago medical salaries are very different than they are now.


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## geordie

Your wages are relatively low to compared to your debts. There is nothing to stop you going bankrupt in the UK and writing off these debts. 

You will be out of bankruptcy after 12 months and then probably have another 24 months of payments added by virtue of you earning over what is deemed necessary for you to live on (a total of 36 months from the start of the bankruptcy). As you are graduate immigrant you will have no credit rating in the UK anyway, so you will have to build it up anyway. 

The way to do this is once your out of bankruptcy, or finished your additional 24 months of payments, ask you main bank for a small loan, say €1,000 and pay it back over the set period. Even if you don't need the loan you should do it to start establishing a credit rating. When the first one is paid getting a bigger and so forth. After two or three years or small loans, savings accrued from earnings and staying at the same address you will start to get a credit rating established again. Though it could take six years to get a full credit rating, but it will have taken this long anyway. Put it this way, you will be debt free, with good earnings, high potential earnings and savings, so you'll be a low-risk. What you're thinking about is just savvy financial planning.


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## geordie

--


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## Gerry Canning

Maybe Irish is being honest , maybe he/she is a chancher. 
On the hope he/she is honest , it is no harm to get advice.

So Irish, 

1. Ask Bank to give you low rate of interest and/or interest only or some years to get you back properly.
2. Review every 2 years in relation to your income and adjust payments accordingly.
In this way everyone gets sorted and you retain your integrity and good name .{the only thing we all have is our good name} 
If Bank do not act in a responsible manner then (threaten) Bankruptcy etc.

Do not be tempted to (screw) the Bank , because if YOU cannot be trusted now , you will remain a sad chancher.
Hope you make honest decisions .


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## shoegal

Irish last posted back in July, wonder how they are getting on now, perhaps they moved to the UK afterall.


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