# Harney's worst ever proposal (and that's saying something)



## Complainer (15 Nov 2009)

See http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1115/medicalcard.html

She is concerned about over-prescribing, so she decides to charge medical card patients for prescriptions. If there is a problem with over-prescribing, she should be sorting this out immediately with the doctors, not getting those who can least afford it to pay (yet again). Prescription charges will not stop the over-prescribing problem.

If she needs to squeeze a few more quid out of the health budget, perhaps she should start at the top, and negotiate a decent deal with the consultant. Perhaps she should work out why my blood pressure medication is 10 times the price here in Ireland compared to the UK (and it is made in Cork). Perhaps she should be cutting the state subsidy to developers of new private hospitals and private sports injury clinics before she comes after medical card holders.

But most of all, she should be sorting out over-prescribing as a medical problem, not an economic problem.


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## Bluebells (16 Nov 2009)

Did you think of giving her a call to understand what is going on, and what legislation is relevant ?

I agree with your point. On The Week In Politics tonight, she repeated the same nonsense. When asked about the proposed prescription charges, she went off on a tangent about overprescription of antibiotics, the prevalence of superbugs, and the lack of same in The Netherlands.

This is a similar technique to that of  John Gormley and his Carbon Tax. The tax that he said on the same programme has nothing to do with raising the public finances.


Suddenly, now, when the coffers are empty it is vital that we start paying extra money to reduce our carbon emissions. 

What a fortunate coincidence for the Government.


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## diarmuidc (16 Nov 2009)

Complainer said:


> But most of all, she should be sorting out over-prescribing as a medical problem, not an economic problem.


It can be both you know.


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## Bronco Lane (16 Nov 2009)

A similar logic was used when a charge was introduced for attending at the A & E. It was to encourage people to go to their GP rather than the A & E and quite rightly so. However as most GP's charge in the €60 range I am just wondering why the A & E charge is heading past the €100 mark.


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## Firefly (16 Nov 2009)

I agree with this proposal and also think that medical card holders should pay 5-10euro a visit to their GP


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## Abbica (16 Nov 2009)

I totally agree with her proposal, I have a friend on the medical card, goes to the doctor if she gets something in her eye, she is never out of the place, its a joke, I only go to the doctor if I am about to die as can't afford it. I think something should be done to discourage the abuse the health system gets.


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## colin79ie (16 Nov 2009)

It should be €5 per prescription. It should also be €10 per GP visit.

I recently heard about someone with a skin condition who gets their cream for free through a friend of theirs who gets it on their medical card. It costs €130 a tube. That's just wrong.


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## delgirl (16 Nov 2009)

Abbica said:


> I totally agree with her proposal, I have a friend on the medical card, goes to the doctor if she gets something in her eye, she is never out of the place, its a joke, I only go to the doctor if I am about to die as can't afford it. I think something should be done to discourage the abuse the health system gets.


+1

I also know a few people who have medical cards and take the children if they have a runny nose!  And then they demand antibiotics and are given them by the doctor!

There should definitely be a charge for GP's of €10 and €5 for prescriptions.


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## Complainer (16 Nov 2009)

Abbica said:


> Ion the medical card, goes to the doctor if she gets something in her eye, she is never out of the place, its a joke,


How will the prescription charge help this situation?


colin79ie said:


> I recently heard about someone with a skin condition who gets their cream for free through a friend of theirs who gets it on their medical card. It costs €130 a tube. That's just wrong.


How will the 50c prescription charge help this situation?


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## Sunny (16 Nov 2009)

I can't believe that the 50c charge will raise €20-€30 million. How many prescriptions are written every year in this Country?


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## VOR (16 Nov 2009)

I would hope that a small fee would make people think twice before strolling in to the GP. It will also help the government collect some much needed revenue.


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## Graham_07 (16 Nov 2009)

50c per drug dispensed will not deter people getting an overprescribed antibiotic. However the elderly person with perhaps up to 10 or more items on their regular monthly prescription will suffer. If it is going to be introduced it would have been better to have a flat rate per prescription filled.


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## sunrock (16 Nov 2009)

Isn`t the G.P. paid per head for medical card holders. If medical card holders are going to be charged 5 euros per visit the money to the G.P. needs to be looked at.


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## VOR (16 Nov 2009)

sunrock said:


> Isn`t the G.P. paid per head for medical card holders. If medical card holders are going to be charged 5 euros per visit the money to the G.P. needs to be looked at.


 
True. The GPs love to see card holder coming as it is easy money.


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## Bronco Lane (16 Nov 2009)

VOR said:


> True. The GPs love to see card holder coming as it is easy money.


 
My father never visited the doctor. Even when my mother was poorly she was never brought to the doctor. My mother died. Now my father with his medical card is never out of the place. He takes everything that is available to him whether ne needs it or not. He even got a straight backed chair because he was saying that it was difficult to get out of his soft chair. This free chair is now used as a place to store his newspapers. Several other items have been dumped in a corner of the room and never used.


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## Yoltan (16 Nov 2009)

delgirl said:


> +1
> 
> I also know a few people who have medical cards and take the children if they have a runny nose! And then they demand antibiotics and are given them by the doctor!
> 
> There should definitely be a charge for GP's of €10 and €5 for prescriptions.


 

Agree 100%. I know of several people that have medical cards who will no doubt moan about this but have no problem spending their money on drink and cigarettes!!


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## Purple (16 Nov 2009)

VOR said:


> True. The GPs love to see card holder coming as it is easy money.


Nope, they love it when they never come since they get a flat yearly fee.


sunrock said:


> Isn`t the G.P. paid per head for medical card holders. If medical card holders are going to be charged 5 euros per visit the money to the G.P. needs to be looked at.


 The payment should be collected by the GP and deducted from the yearly flat fee (no net gain to the GP).



Sunny said:


> I can't believe that the 50c charge will raise €20-€30 million. How many prescriptions are written every year in this Country?


 40-60 million, it would seem.


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## Sunny (16 Nov 2009)

Purple said:


> 40-60 million, it would seem.


 
And thats just on the medical card scheme. We must be a really sick nation


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## DeeFox (16 Nov 2009)

VOR said:


> I would hope that a small fee would make people think twice before strolling in to the GP. It will also help the government collect some much needed revenue.


 
I agree with this completely.  It's a bit like the plastic bag levy - a small amount of money that makes people think twice about the alternatives available if possible.


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## MANTO (16 Nov 2009)

A relation of mine worked in a Pharmacy and the level of drugs returned was crazy.

One person whose mother died, brought back 3 black bags full of unused medication, why, because her mother took what she could get.

How many prescriptions are written every year where the drugs are not used? Once they leave the pharmacy they have to be destroyed if returned.... how much is this waste costing i wonder?


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## MANTO (16 Nov 2009)

deefox said:


> i agree with this completely. It's a bit like the plastic bag levy - a small amount of money that makes people think twice about the alternatives available if possible.


 
+1


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## Abbica (16 Nov 2009)

I am just sick of working my ass off, paying huge taxes and a mortgage plus the rest, when most, not all I know are getting everything free off our godforsaken government, a system where you are better off in this country to make a career out oof making babies instead of being a professional! We have to start discouraging this sponging off the state all the time when the working class are really suffering for it.


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## Purple (16 Nov 2009)

Sunny said:


> And thats just on the medical card scheme. We must be a really sick nation



I know! Thank goodness I have my health...


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## Betsy Og (16 Nov 2009)

maybe a start would have been to say if you're happy with a generic brand then no fee, if you want a branded product then pay 50% of the cost. I think there would be a landslide towards generics straightaway, saving a lot of money. And bear in mind that a pharmacist will tell you that the generic is every bit as good, it just that some doctors like to keep their junket providers happy and some patients like brands, especially when they are not paying for them.

Now there might have to be some counterbalance with our own pharma producers, but I presume they are making their money on the new stuff which is under patent or whatever the protection is.


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## S.L.F (16 Nov 2009)

Betsy Og said:


> And bear in mind that a pharmacist will tell you that the generic is every bit as good, it just that some doctors like to keep their junket providers happy


 
and if a doctor writes a prescription with a branded name the pharmacist has to put that branded drug into the bag.


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## annet (16 Nov 2009)

S.L.F said:


> and if a doctor writes a prescription with a branded name the pharmacist has to put that branded drug into the bag.


 
Trust me I have prescriptions and dispensing records that show generics  were dispensed when trade/brand names were clearly on the script!  Lets just say questions were asked - like what was being claimed!


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## Megan (16 Nov 2009)

"One person whose mother died, brought back 3 black bags full of unused medication, why, because her mother took what she could get."

My mother in law died in 1996 and I packed many black bags of unused medication when we were clearing out her house. My sister's mother in law died last year and she had to do the same. So I think it is only right that there should be some charge if for nothing else then to make people check if they need to fill a prescription if they allready have an unopen pack at home. 
Wouldn't you wonder if they ever needed these prescriptions in the first place. Both these women lived until they were 85 and 83 years old. The medication didn't help them to live longer if it was still in the bag they got it in from the chemist unopened.


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## Complainer (16 Nov 2009)

A 50c charge is going to have a minimal effect on this over-perscribing. If there is (as it seems from the stories on this thread and elsewhere) a serious problem with over-perscribing, this needs to be addressed urgently from the top down. 

Use of generics would indeed be a great idea, but this is not the solution either. If the docs are scriptpad-happy, this needs to be sorted and managed.


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## Sunny (16 Nov 2009)

Complainer said:


> A 50c charge is going to have a minimal effect on this over-perscribing. If there is (as it seems from the stories on this thread and elsewhere) a serious problem with over-perscribing, this needs to be addressed urgently from the top down.
> 
> Use of generics would indeed be a great idea, but this is not the solution either. If the docs are scriptpad-happy, this needs to be sorted and managed.


 
I agree. They threw in the over prescribing thing to deflect attention. It will have no impact on that issue.

It does seem though that they are intent on hitting medical card holders in some way though. They seem to have identified it as somewhere that can be targeted. I don't know enough about the scheme but as I said before I was shocked that a 50c charge could bring in €20-30m. Going by those amounts, I can see why they are targeting it. But like I say, I don't know enough to say if this is the right way or not.


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## mathepac (16 Nov 2009)

Purple said:


> ... 40-60 million, it would seem.


But that's an insane number, something like 10 - 15 scripts / citizen / annum. Don't get me wrong, I'm not disputing the 40-60 million, I just can't get my head around it.


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## truthseeker (16 Nov 2009)

mathepac said:


> But that's an insane number, something like 10 - 15 scripts / citizen / annum. Don't get me wrong, I'm not disputing the 40-60 million, I just can't get my head around it.


 
Im young (enough!) and reasonably healthy, however Id say I go through at least 6 - 8 scripts a year on minor stuff.

If thats me being healthy, I can only imagine how many scripts people with serious health problems go through.


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## Caveat (16 Nov 2009)

Well not to get into oneupmanship or anything, but just as another example, I haven't presented a prescription at all this year.  One last year I think. I'd say maybe about 3 in the last 5 years.


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## truthseeker (16 Nov 2009)

Caveat said:


> Well not to get into oneupmanship or anything, but just as another example, I haven't presented a prescription at all this year. One last year I think. I'd say maybe about 3 in the last 5 years.


 
Yes - it depends on the person. I rarely get a script for an 'illness', but do tend to get them for things like minor irritations like swimmers ear, or for non illnesses like birth control, anti inflammatories for sports type injuries etc... None of which I consider 'illnesses' and not things I feel are over prescribed to me - but as i say, it depends on the person.

I know my FIL gets quite a lot of scripts in a year, a definitely monthly one, plus odd ones here and there as well - he would easily cover 20 in a year.


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## becky (16 Nov 2009)

I last went to the GP in 2008 for a check up – everything was fine so I haven’t been since.  In my adult life I have presented about 4 scripts to a pharmacist.  I have not taken antibiotics since I was 19 (I'm 39 now).


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## Grizzly (16 Nov 2009)

Megan said:


> "One person whose mother died, brought back 3 black bags full of unused medication, why, because her mother took what she could get."
> 
> My mother in law died in 1996 and I packed many black bags of unused medication when we were clearing out her house. My sister's mother in law died last year and she had to do the same. So I think it is only right that there should be some charge if for nothing else then to make people check if they need to fill a prescription if they allready have an unopen pack at home.
> Wouldn't you wonder if they ever needed these prescriptions in the first place. Both these women lived until they were 85 and 83 years old. The medication didn't help them to live longer if it was still in the bag they got it in from the chemist unopened.


 
Why is this the case?

Is it the older person pretending to be sick to get sympathy/attention?
Is it the older person forgetting to take their medication and if so it appeared not to do them any harm if there were black bags full of the stuff.


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## levelpar (16 Nov 2009)

Personally, I think the first place nurse Nightingale should start is with the crazy costs of medicines compared to Spain or the U.K.

Does anyone know why there is such a hugh difference ?


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## mathepac (16 Nov 2009)

becky said:


> ...   In my adult life I have presented about 4 scripts to a pharmacist...


I'm 58 and I have a long-term illness card with 6 line-items on the prescription - 4 are meds and 2 are test-items for monitoring symptoms.

The GP endorses the script "Repeat 5 times", thus writing 3 scripts / annum, but the pharmacist dispenses 13 times / annum.

Is Harney counting me for 3 scripts / annum or 13?


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## Towger (16 Nov 2009)

MANTO said:


> +1


 
++1

BTW Complainer what heppend to the blogg. More cut backs ??


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## Complainer (16 Nov 2009)

Towger said:


> BTW Complainer what heppend to the blogg. More cut backs ??


Just couldn't give it the time it deserved, so I opted for swift euthanasia rather than a slow drift into Internet tumbleweed.


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## Purple (16 Nov 2009)

mathepac said:


> But that's an insane number, something like 10 - 15 scripts / citizen / annum. Don't get me wrong, I'm not disputing the 40-60 million, I just can't get my head around it.



I'm disputing it. With about 1.5 million people holding medical cards it's an average of 40 scripts a year. I don't accept that for a minute.


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## Graham_07 (16 Nov 2009)

mathepac said:


> I'm 58 and I have a long-term illness card with 6 line-items on the prescription - 4 are meds and 2 are test-items for monitoring symptoms.
> 
> The GP endorses the script "Repeat 5 times", thus writing 3 scripts / annum, but the pharmacist dispenses 13 times / annum.
> 
> Is Harney counting me for 3 scripts / annum or 13?


 

I think prescription charge is an incorrect title. What is mentioned in the RTE article is more of a dispensing charge. If they propose a "per drug dispensed" charge then I imagine you will have a fee for each line item per dispensing.


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## Brianne (16 Nov 2009)

No, it's a great idea, and should be 5 Euro per prescription at least and please don't tell me that that is not affordable. Sorry, my years of dealing with people tells me that very few appreciate things they get for nothing, in fact make it 10 Euros. A pack of cigs costs over 8 Euro and is a pint 4 Euro? There are very few teetotaller, non smoking, Irish who have no cable tv or internet. You pay for everything else, that's what I'm saying so a small contribution to the cost of your health care is not onerous. The amount of drugs not taken by those who get them free is unbelievable,if they had to pay for them , they'd think twice!
Actually, in my opinion, the problem all along is giving anything for nothing , we can't afford it and we have too much sense of entitlement and she should roll back the over 70's medical card too.Yes, she did a bit but the income level is still high, and why is an old person with a good income more entitled to free care than children of a modest wage earner. It's when people are young with small children that their costs are higher. Not that I have any sympathy for her, she is part of that appalling government who ransomed our country's future for short term political gain and we the electorate put them in.
If nothing else comes out of this upheaval, wouldn't it be great if we grew up politically and put into power those who had some sense of national good and told us the truth about what we can afford and then led us. Utopia, I know, and sometimes I despair about us not just the government. They are a reflection of us, what a thought!!!


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## delgirl (16 Nov 2009)

Well they're never goinig to solve the problem of over-prescribing with doctors like the [broken link removed]!

All she got was 2 years supervision after prescribing massive amounts of date-rape drugs - she should have been found unfit to practice and struck off the medical register because she knew what she was doing was seriously wrong and potentially very dangerous.


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## Brianne (16 Nov 2009)

I read somewhere that she was targeted by druggies;reading between the lines, it sounded as if she was afraid. In a foreign country with potentially very violent people sitting across the desk from you in your one man surgery!!  
Not condoning it at all but maybe the above result is the correct one.


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## becky (16 Nov 2009)

Brianne said:


> I read somewhere that she was targeted by druggies;reading between the lines, it sounded as if she was afraid. In a foreign country with potentially very violent people sitting across the desk from you in your one man surgery!! Not condoning it at all but maybe the above result is the correct one.


 I agree. Her case was heard by the IMC who had all the facts.


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## becky (16 Nov 2009)

Brianne said:


> No, it's a great idea, and should be 5 Euro per prescription at least and please don't tell me that that is not affordable. Sorry, my years of dealing with people tells me that very few appreciate things they get for nothing, in fact make it 10 Euros. A pack of cigs costs over 8 Euro and is a pint 4 Euro? There are very few teetotaller, non smoking, Irish who have no cable tv or internet. You pay for everything else, that's what I'm saying so a small contribution to the cost of your health care is not onerous. The amount of drugs not taken by those who get them free is unbelievable,if they had to pay for them , they'd think twice!
> Actually, in my opinion, the problem all along is giving anything for nothing , we can't afford it and we have too much sense of entitlement and she should roll back the over 70's medical card too.Yes, she did a bit but the income level is still high, and why is an old person with a good income more entitled to free care than children of a modest wage earner. It's when people are young with small children that their costs are higher. Not that I have any sympathy for her, she is part of that appalling government who ransomed our country's future for short term political gain and we the electorate put them in.
> If nothing else comes out of this upheaval, wouldn't it be great if we grew up politically and put into power those who had some sense of national good and told us the truth about what we can afford and then led us. Utopia, I know, and sometimes I despair about us not just the government. They are a reflection of us, what a thought!!!


 Good post Brianne.  I have no problem with a fee. Both my parents have a medical card, bus pass, TV licence, some of the ESB and telephone paid and a pension. Last year someone called out and put an outside light over the front door (mom was asking Dad to do that for 20 years). They often remark about how much they get from the state.


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## Protocol (17 Nov 2009)

becky said:


> Good post Brianne. I have no problem with a fee. Both my parents have a medical card, bus pass, TV licence, some of the ESB and telephone paid and a pension. Last year someone called out and put an outside light over the front door (mom was asking Dad to do that for 20 years). They often remark about how much they get from the state.


 
Similarly, my parents earn *55k approx*, pay *2% income tax*, and *get a medical card*.

Is that any way to run a country???


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## Betsy Og (17 Nov 2009)

a few articles in the Indo today about generic drugs and asking people to pay for branded stuff.


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## Grizzly (17 Nov 2009)

My own father has both a private pension as well as a state pension. He went to his doctor and demanded a bottle of Gaviscon on his medical card because his existing unopened one was a week out of date. Thankfully his doctor ran him.


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## shnaek (17 Nov 2009)

I agree with Brianne too. They have the same problem with the NHS in the UK also. A small charge is necessary so a benefit isn't abused.


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