# Taking photographs in Church



## liaconn (17 May 2010)

I was at a First Communion on Saturday where, at the start of the ceremony, the priest asked people to be discreet if they wanted to take photos during the Mass. He also reminded them that there'd be plenty of opportunities to take photographs afterwards. Despite this loads of parents were standing up in their seats and in the middle of the aisle, blocking other people's view of the altar and clicking away when it was their child's turn to do something. Not just taking one photograph but loads, so they were standing for ages and other people had to crane their necks to see what was going on. What part of 'discreet' did they not understand?


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## mathepac (17 May 2010)

liaconn said:


> ...  What part of 'discreet' did they not understand?


Did you ask them?


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## becky (18 May 2010)

I wonder why they bother at all. These pics in the church are usually rubbish. What bugs me more is people like me were expected to stand round PCs looking at them.


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## Ciaraella (18 May 2010)

I was at a christening where the grandmother was on the altar for practically the whole cermony taking pictures, it was mortifying, there's a time and a place!


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## Caveat (18 May 2010)

I think it's a bit flash and disrespectful to take photos in churches at the best of times. Doubly so if specific requests are made for restraint.


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## TarfHead (18 May 2010)

In my experience, of my son's first Holy Communion last year, many of the parents in the Church were there for the first time, either ever or in a long time.

That may explain some of the basis for the lack of respect.


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## fizzelina (18 May 2010)

At Easter Sat night vigil mass there was a couple of babies christened during it. Now bearing in mind Easter mass vigil is solemn, there was candles, darkness, no music and people interested in the religious aspect of the mass. One of the babies entire family paraded onto alter to watch the baby being baptised and it was a photo shoot if ever there was one, really OTT and inappropriate. Last Sat at my brothers First Communion there was plenty taking pics not discreetly despite being asked not to.


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## JP1234 (18 May 2010)

At the church my son did his communion and confirmation there is a blanket ban on photograps or filming during the service. There are always a couple of chancers but either the priest or one of the teachers will ask them to stop, particularly embarrassing if it's the priest who asks as he will stop the service to do so!  There's ample opportunity for pictures after the event.

Now, if only they would come down as hard on people texting throughout the service  - what could be so important it can't wait?


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## Firefly (18 May 2010)

caveat said:


> i think it's a bit *flash* and disrespectful to take photos in churches at the best of times.


 
:d


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## liaconn (18 May 2010)

TarfHead said:


> In my experience, of my son's first Holy Communion last year, many of the parents in the Church were there for the first time, either ever or in a long time.
> 
> That may explain some of the basis for the lack of respect.


 
I agree. Likewise, some relatives let their toddlers scream and roar even though they were drowning out Communion children up on the altar doing readings or singing solo parts of hymns. The poor kids (including my nephew) had been practising for months and the parents and grandparents had been dying for their child's big moment, but this didn't seem to bother these people.


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## The_Banker (18 May 2010)

If the catholic church insist on indoctrinating kids at such an early age then its the least they can put with for for new members...


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## liaconn (18 May 2010)

It is the parents who insist on their child making Communion even though they don't practise their religion, not the Church. How does a child making their Communion make them a 'new member'?


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## TarfHead (18 May 2010)

The_Banker said:


> If the catholic church insist on indoctrinating kids at such an early age then its the least they can put with for for new members...


 
Children receiving their first Holy Communion are not '_new members_'; they would have been baptised into the Church before then.

And it's the parents who insist on their child being part of the Church. If that is important to the parents, they should demonstrate respect for the sacrament and for the Church.

Which, of course, is dragging this thread off in another direction, but sure that's probably why you trolled in the first place  ?


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## The_Banker (18 May 2010)

Not a throll. I may not have made my point as well as I wanted to so I will clarify….

Kids in Ireland will predominately go to a Catholic School because the vast majority of schools in Ireland are catholic. Even if a child isn’t catholic (not baptised) a child will still want to make his/her communion when he sees all his friends making communion and talking about the money that will be made… Parents will want there children to make communion because no one wants to see there child left out. 
The whole system of education and religion is intertwined in this country that it is nearly impossible for people to opt out…

Therefore, as the church is using education to bring in new people every year the least they can put up with is parents disrespecting the church to get a few pictures of Johnny or Mary in there best clothes…

So to put my point bluntly… The church has used the education system in this country for years, so what if parent use the church for a few photos on a Childs “special” day.

That might sound mercenary towards the church but to be honest, I don’t really care.


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## liaconn (18 May 2010)

I think you will find that the Church are not the ones who have turned First Holy Communions into big extravaganzas. Most of those in charge would far prefer that it returned to a simple, religious ceremony that only children from practising families took part in. However, can you imagine the furore if they insisted that school uniforms be worn, tried to stop money being handed out, spoke out against parties and fancy dos being associated with the day, insisted that only children who were brought to mass regularly could partake?
And it is not simply the priests etc that people are dis-respecting, it is the genuine Catholics in the congregation ,who do not like seeing a Mass being treated like this and want their children to see it as a religious event first, and a family celebration second.


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## The_Banker (18 May 2010)

liaconn said:


> I think you will find that the Church are not the ones who have turned First Holy Communions into big extravaganzas. Most of those in charge would far prefer that it returned to a simple, religious ceremony that only children from practising families took part in. However, can you imagine the furore if they insisted that school uniforms be worn, tried to stop money being handed out, spoke out against parties and fancy dos being associated with the day, insisted that only children who were brought to mass regularly could partake?
> And it is not simply the priests etc that people are dis-respecting, it is the genuine Catholics in the congregation ,who do not like seeing a Mass being treated like this and want their children to see it as a *religious event first, and a family celebration second.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Very few people see any of the catholic festivals as a religious event. It is always a family celebration first... Easter, Xmas, Communion, Confirmation, despite what they might say.


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## liaconn (18 May 2010)

Yes, but a First Communion is an event you make a deliberate decision to take part in. Christmas and Easter are a bit difficult to avoid. In any event I would still expect people to treat church ceremonies at these times with reverence and respect or just stay away from them.


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## The_Banker (18 May 2010)

liaconn said:


> Yes, but a First Communion is an event you make a deliberate decision to take part in. Christmas and Easter are a bit difficult to avoid. In any event I would still expect people to treat church ceremonies at these times with reverence and respect or just stay away from them.


 

I disagree. The church want to keep mass appeal for these ceremonies. Therefore, because it is a childs ceremony reverence and respect goes out the window.
The only way they will get reverence and respect at these ceremonies is if the people making communion or confirmation are adults who willingly enter into those sacraments.
The kids who make confirmation or communion have no idea what they are committing to and are only in it for the day out/money/fuss made of them.


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## liaconn (19 May 2010)

Well, that is the point I've been making. The adults, who have decided not to practice their religion, should not then present their children for sacraments that are meaningless to them and then treat the ceremony with no respect. Just stay away and be honest about it!


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## Caveat (19 May 2010)

liaconn said:


> Well, that is the point I've been making. The adults, who have decided not to practice their religion, should not then present their children for sacraments that are meaningless to them and then treat the ceremony with no respect. Just stay away and be honest about it!


 
Exactly.

From observations in various countries and in various churches, I'm sorry to say that the average congregation of the catholic church in Ireland seem to be the worst offenders for this kind of disrespect. 

Photos, constant talking, laughing, arriving late, unruly kids etc


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## TarfHead (19 May 2010)

liaconn said:


> .. can you imagine the furore if they insisted that school uniforms be worn, tried to stop money being handed out, spoke out against parties and fancy dos being associated with the day, insisted that only children who were brought to mass regularly could partake?


 
Sarah Carey's [broken link removed] covers this ground.


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## liaconn (19 May 2010)

Thanks Tarfhead. Interesting article.


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## The_Banker (19 May 2010)

Mmmm so they want the kids to give some of there money towards the upkeep of the church.. It would sound noble if they didnt have a history of having the hand out in the past.

However, I would never fund an organisation where I didnt have a say in how its run.


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## DeeFox (19 May 2010)

I was listening to the topic of communions being discussed on the radio recently and the dj said that he was aware of a case whereby a student had not made an appearance at the church on the day of the communion and when asked why the following Monday the student said that the family had been too busy with the party to go to the church!!

Anyone think this actually could be true??!


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## TarfHead (19 May 2010)

DeeFox said:


> .. family had been too busy with the party to go to the church!!
> 
> Anyone think this actually could be true??!


 
A colleague of mine, who is very involved in her parish, told me a similar story. What with the hairdresser and the make-up and the rest, they ran out of time to go to the Church and went on the other post-Communion event venue.

I believe her.


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## Caveat (19 May 2010)

It sounds bizarre but think about it - Christmas, Easter - the same could easily apply.

Apart from being individualised and having more overt/immediate religious significance, communion isn't that different.

Parties take over generally - even birthdays aren't really about celebrating the the birth/life of the person concerned usually.


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## Mpsox (19 May 2010)

Local priest near me writes a column in the local newspaper. he suggested recently in it that confirmation should be postponed for a few years since it only seems to exist to support the bouncy castle industry


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## Caveat (19 May 2010)

Mpsox said:


> Local priest near me writes a column in the local newspaper. he suggested recently in it that confirmation should be postponed for a few years since it only seems to exist to support the bouncy castle industry


 
I dunno, could be a nice reciprocal earner there - maybe bouncy castles could have their productss plastered with advertising?

"Try Mass - it's great!!"


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## The_Banker (19 May 2010)

Caveat said:


> I dunno, could be a nice reciprocal earner there - maybe bouncy castles could have their productss plastered with advertising?
> 
> *"Try Mass - it's great!!"*


 
I dont think so, they would probably be done for false advertising...


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## BoscoTalking (19 May 2010)

The_Banker said:


> So to put my point bluntly… The church has used the education system in this country for years, so what if parent use the church for a few photos on a Childs “special” day.


the State has also used the church to provide education for children? 

I don't agree that the children opt in for the craic -  if they are not baptised can they even do this? lots of children in RC ethos schools sit it out nowadays, usually because their parents have the courage of their convictions. 

When in Rome is all I' ed say.


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## notagardener (19 May 2010)

Our youngest made her Communion last Sunday. On a good note, everyone arrived on time, also the priest asked that all would refrain from taking photos in the church and INCREDIBLY everyone complied. The Children ONLY were then accompanied by their teachers outside to the church steps for a group photo before the service began. Only one 'professional' photographer to get all their attention at the one time and the school are providing all families with one free copy. We only had one mobile going off during the service, but otherwise the Communion was very well planned and a Great Day for all involved.


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## Latrade (21 May 2010)

Caveat said:


> I dunno, could be a nice reciprocal earner there - maybe bouncy castles could have their productss plastered with advertising?
> 
> "Try Mass - it's great!!"


 
"This church has been pervert free for X-days"

The thing that cracks me up to some extent about churches laying down restrictive rules about the likes of communions, funerals etc, is that these things are their cash cows. 

I'm sure it would be great if all these people came to Mass and put their hands in their pockets when the dish comes around, but they don't. They do, for whatever reason, want the christening, communion, wedding and funeral and the church is more than happy to take their money for these.

So the church pockets the money and then starts complaining about the people who've just stumped up a not insignificant amount of cash. Nice.


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## TarfHead (21 May 2010)

Latrade said:


> The thing that cracks me up to some extent about churches laying down restrictive rules about the likes of communions, funerals etc, is that these things are their cash cows.
> 
> ..
> 
> So the church pockets the money and then starts complaining about the people who've just stumped up a not insignificant amount of cash. Nice.


 
The context here is first Holy Communions and the behaviour of individuals during the ceremonies. I'm not clear on the basis for your assertion that fHC is a source of cash for the Church. IIRC, families are not asked to contribute to the Church for fHC.

Am I assume, for other postings, that there is a consensus of opinion that the Church should just be happy to have people turn up and have to tolerate their behaviour ? So, by extension, is it OK for a guest in your home to behave as they wish (e.g. smoke without asking and drop ash & butts on the carpet) ?


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## liaconn (21 May 2010)

Latrade said:


> "This church has been pervert free for X-days"
> 
> The thing that cracks me up to some extent about churches laying down restrictive rules about the likes of communions, funerals etc, is that these things are their cash cows.
> 
> ...


 
The majority of the money received by the Church comes from the Sunday collections and Easter dues which are paid by regular mass goers. The contributions made by people using the Church for weddings, christenings (never heard of Communions needing a contribution) etc are a minor part of their funding and a lot of it goes on stuff like turning on the heating and lights for the afternoon, cleaning the red carpet, etc. Why should they get all this for free when they make absolutely no contribution for the rest of the year? It really annoys me the way some people like the Church to be there as a handy resource when they want it, but expect everyone else to pay for its maintainance and upkeep and give up their time free of charge to polish the floor, arrange the flowers on the altar and so on. And I don't think the Church is 'more than happy' to have people like this using the Church. From what I've heard they would far prefer if only people for whom the sacraments mean something would actually take part in them and other people would stop being hypocritical and disrespectful.


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## DB74 (21 May 2010)

_When This post will be deleted if not edited immediately saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these._
Mark 10:14

Where in the Gospels does it say that people have to sit still and stay quiet during Mass?


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## The_Banker (21 May 2010)

liaconn said:


> The majority of the money received by the Church comes from the Sunday collections and Easter dues which are paid by regular mass goers. The contributions made by people using the Church for weddings, christenings (never heard of Communions needing a contribution) etc are a minor part of their funding and a lot of it goes on stuff like turning on the heating and lights for the afternoon, cleaning the red carpet, etc. Why should they get all this for free when they make absolutely no contribution for the rest of the year? It really annoys me the way some people like the Church to be there as a handy resource when they want it, but expect everyone else to pay for its maintainance and upkeep and give up their time free of charge to polish the floor, arrange the flowers on the altar and so on. And I don't think the Church is 'more than happy' to have people like this using the Church. *From what I've heard they would far prefer if only people for whom the sacraments mean something* would actually take part in them and other people would stop being hypocritical and disrespectful.


 
Dont think so.. If the Catholic Church wanted people who were only there because the sacrament meant something to them then they wouldn't baptise infants, give first holy communion to 7/8 year olds and confirm 12 year olds. What does a new born know about baptism or a 7 year old about the body and blood of christ?
If they would only prefer people to whom these sacrements meant something then they would only baptise/give communion/confer 18 year olds after they are mature enough to make a decision on whether they want to be full members of a cult/church/organisation or not. 
The Church gets little or nothing for communion/confirmation but it is a loss leader. 
"Get um in young enough and you have them for another generation"


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## liaconn (21 May 2010)

Likewise, if parents aren't bothered about catholicism and don't practice it, they are not supposed to have their children baptised into the Church and stand at the font promising to raise them as Catholics. People like my parents, who are very staunch Catholics, find that disgusting and hypocritical. They're certainly not saying 'great, how much can we fleece them for'.


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## The_Banker (21 May 2010)

Id agree with you here to an extent.. Hypocracy on both sides.


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## Caveat (21 May 2010)

liaconn said:


> staunch Catholics


 
I think you've got that wrong.

In the words of the immortal Gay Byrne: 

"As we all know, catholics are _devout_ and protestants are _staunch_"

 


BTW Liaconn, as I think may know already, I agree with your general view on the whole hyprocrisy thing - and I say that as an agnostic.


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## truthseeker (21 May 2010)

Liaconn - I totally agree with everything youve said in this thread and Im atheist.


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## mtk (22 May 2010)

i dont see why taking a few photos is a big deal frankly. 
We were told not to and we didn't and as far as i saw only 1/2 parents did and that was as the kids actually got the communion so not very obstrusive. 

I woud personally have liked a video of at least some of the ceremony as it was lovely

I think the "church" and posters here should chill out.


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## liaconn (24 May 2010)

Thanks Caveat and Truthseeker.

mtk - no one is objecting to a few discreet photos being taken. Maybe read my opening post again.


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## Latrade (24 May 2010)

I'll admit I was just joking with my defence of the photograph takers, nobody else was sticking up for them. So all that cash cow stuff was tongue in cheek.

However, I don't see the great hypocrisy between the ceremonial attendance and the day-to-day. It's a much bigger discussion, but it's too easy to judge all these people the same and forget about external or perceived pressure on them to do the "right" thing. Maybe it's the church going parents/grandparents who expect it all to be done officially, maybe it's a belief that with schooling, baptism is essential and that then you have to go through with communions and confirmations. 

I'd agree, it may not be to everyone's liking, but when it comes to matters of family and kids, the path of least resistance is hard to ignore. In an ideal world we'd all be big an tough enough to stick to our morals and chosen lack of effort in faith or belief, but when it comes to not upsetting the nannies or at least not having them the talk of the town or when it comes to not having your child sat alone while all their friends do the communions, it's easier to just go along with it.

I'm sure there are many here who consider themselves agnostic, atheist or whatever who also had their confirmations etc at a local church. While in our day it may not have been at the scale it is today, when we made up our minds about not believing (or sit on the fence as each way bet agnostic) did you hand back your confirmation money, presents etc? Isn't that hypocritical, selfish, greedy, etc?

The main point is that this isn't hypocritical, it's just the way it is. I'd see Irish Catholicism in the same way as a lot of Judaism, it's more cultural than spiritual. There are an awful lot of atheists who still describe themselves as Catholics and the same in Judaism (outside of Israel). 

And that's not unique to Ireland, I think it's a hang over from Celtic and other forms of paganism where it was more about there ceremony than the spiritual side. When completing the conversion to Christianity, the sales pitch was that you get to keep the parties, you just don't have to sacrifice any goats or virgins and you don't have to get up at the crack of dawn on an equinox to get soaked wet in Meath. We were basically told you could keep the parties and have a few more, just change who we're worshipping.

Anyway, I do agree with ignorant gits at these things taking pictures etc, but there are rude inconsiderate people everywhere in at every event. I do disagree with judging those who attend too harshly on whether they're hypocrites or not.


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## Complainer (24 May 2010)

I overheard a 8/9 year old child at a communion party over the weekend claiming to have got €4,000 odd for her communion. I don't know her or her family, so I can't say anything about the veracity of the claim.

If it is true, it is obscene.


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## MANTO (24 May 2010)

I know of some kids who made over €2000. Its crazy!


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## johnd (24 May 2010)

MANTO said:


> I know of some kids who made over €2000. Its crazy!




That's why non  believers have their children make their communion and confirmation. It's all about money, money, money.


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## The_Banker (25 May 2010)

Im a non believer. I hate everything the catholic church stands for.
I have a child on the way. I have no intension of having the child christened.
When she/he is 7 or 8 and if the majority of the kids are making communuion and my child wants to make it then I will let him/her. 
I will stand in the church, take photographs (so long as I am allowed) and be proud.
Am I a hypocrite? Maybe.
Do I care if the catholic church thinks me a hypocrite? Ha ha


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## johnd (25 May 2010)

The_Banker said:


> Im a non believer. I hate everything the catholic church stands for.
> I have a child on the way. I have no intension of having the child christened.
> When she/he is 7 or 8 and if the majority of the kids are making communuion and my child wants to make it then I will let him/her.
> I will stand in the church, take photographs (so long as I am allowed) and be proud.
> ...



If your child is not christened in the Catholic church then he/she cannot make their communion so you won't have to be a hypocrite!


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## TarfHead (25 May 2010)

Children who have not been baptised into the Catholic Church can be included on the day, just not receive the Sacrament. From my own experience, last year, of my son's first Holy Communion, the parents whose children were included on the day, seemed happy to be part  of the day.


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## mathepac (25 May 2010)

johnd said:


> If your child is not *christened* in the Catholic church ...


Get your sacraments right - you mean baptised.


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## Complainer (25 May 2010)

The_Banker said:


> Do I care if the catholic church thinks me a hypocrite? Ha ha


DO you care if your child doesn't get a place the local parish school, because christened Catholics are given priority for places?


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## johnd (26 May 2010)

mathepac said:


> Get your sacraments right - you mean baptised.



Whatever- I think people know what I meant.  Banker mentioned getting his child Christened - I was  replying to his comment not correcting his grammer/use of words. I'll leave that to you


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## cork (26 May 2010)

MANTO said:


> I know of some kids who made over €2000. Its crazy!




People are worse giving cash.

Communions, Confirmations and weddings have turned into money making rackets.


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## TarfHead (26 May 2010)

Complainer said:


> DO you care if your child doesn't get a place the local parish school, because christened Catholics are given priority for places?


 
Do you know that to be true for all schools ?

In my son's class, there are six children who have not been baptised into the Catholic Church. His class is one of four in that year, and the other classes has a similar proportion.

All were made welcome to participate in the preparations for first Holy Communion.

IIRC, the ones who didn't get a place in the school, five years ago, were those from outside the cachement area, i.e. children not baptised were given a place, ahead of those baptised, on the basis of location.


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## johnd (26 May 2010)

TarfHead said:


> Do you know that to be true for all schools ?
> 
> In my son's class, there are six children who have not been baptised into the Catholic Church. His class is one of four in that year, and the other classes has a similar proportion.
> 
> ...



I think it depends on what the management of the particular school is. If it is a Catholic school then Baptised Catholic children in the catchment area are given preference, then other children in the catchment area, then other Baptised Catholic children from outside and finally all children from outside the area.
Educate Together Schools take all children in the catchment area then children from outside the catchment area. That is my understanding of the situation.


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## liaconn (26 May 2010)

cork said:


> People are worse giving cash.


 
How do you stop, though? You can't make an example out of your child/niece/grandchild, to prove a point. It wouldn't be fair. And if the school or Church tried to ban it, that just wouldn't work. They would either be ignored, or told to mind their own business.

I agree, though, that kids getting thousands of euro is absolutely ridiculous.


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## censuspro (26 May 2010)

How do the schools know if a child has been baptised or not?


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## orka (26 May 2010)

censuspro said:


> How do the schools know if a child has been baptised or not?


Ours asked for baptismal certificates.


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## johnd (26 May 2010)

orka said:


> Ours asked for baptismal certificates.



Same here


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## Complainer (26 May 2010)

TarfHead said:


> Do you know that to be true for all schools ?
> 
> In my son's class, there are six children who have not been baptised into the Catholic Church. His class is one of four in that year, and the other classes has a similar proportion.


Any Church-owned school gives priority to baptised children. If there are enough spaces, then they accept everybody. If there are more applications than spaces, then the non-baptised children don't get a place.



liaconn said:


> How do you stop, though? You can't make an example out of your child/niece/grandchild, to prove a point.


Of course you can. Give a present instead of cash. Give an outing (i.e. spend time with the child) instead of cash.


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## The_Banker (26 May 2010)

liaconn said:


> How do you stop, though? You can't make an example out of your child/niece/grandchild, to prove a point. It wouldn't be fair. And if the school or Church tried to ban it, that just wouldn't work. They would either be ignored, or told to mind their own business.
> 
> *I agree, though, that kids getting thousands of euro is absolutely ridiculous*.


 

Not if you get them to invest it wisely...


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