# Most dislikeable professions



## Whiskey (12 May 2008)

I just want to start a thread about the most dislikeable professions which are worthy of genuine criticism

Top of my list is Estate Agent because
1. You can't believe a word they say
2. They get a lot of money for doing very little sometimes
3. They often have no third level education, but charge a lot more than people who have studied for years. The only course they need to go on is "How to keep a straight face while telling the biggest lie"

Second in my list is recruitment agencies
1. They get a lot of money for doing very little sometimes.
2. You can't believe a word they say, they'll tell you lies about jobs that don't exist just to get your CV.
3. They do very little for a huge fee.

Lawyers/Solicitors are fine (except the ones who do ambulance chasing, and advertise to encourage people to sue insurance companies). The ones who advertise looking for sueing customers on a no win/no fee basis are worse than estate agents and recruitment agencies combined.

Enough of my rant !


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## truthseeker (12 May 2008)

Should this not be in Letting Off Steam?

Do your comments re Estate Agents come from a buyers or sellers perspective?
Same question re Recruitment Agencies - from an employer or employees perspective?


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## bond-007 (12 May 2008)

I agree totally, but I would reverse your order. 

I esp agree with you about their CV harvesting techniques. So dishonest. Also they think they are better than everyone else. Like the are powerful. not!


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## ubiquitous (12 May 2008)

Whiskey said:


> Also Gardai used to disgust me, until recently I changed my mind when I came to the conclusion that they do a great job to maintain law and order.



Says it all really. Perhaps if you thought for a moment about the other occupations you list, you might change your mind on them as well.


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## bond-007 (12 May 2008)

I certainly based on my experiences as a buyer would not change my opinions.


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## becky (12 May 2008)

I too hate recruitment agencies.  I work in Recruitment in hse and they talk to me like they can do my job better - they can't.

I has a massive agrument with one person who tried to tell me I didn't need a work permit for someone from South Africa - I did.

Yes this is a letting off steam alright.


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## bond-007 (12 May 2008)

> I has a massive agrument with one person who tried to tell me I didn't need a work permit for someone from South Africa - I did.


And if you took said bad advice you and your employee could have ended up in serious trouble.


> Yes this is a letting off steam alright.


Agreed.


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## truthseeker (12 May 2008)

becky said:


> I has a massive agrument with one person who tried to tell me I didn't need a work permit for someone from South Africa - I did.


 
Why would you even have an argument with them? All you have to do is tell them that you want it in writing from them that a work permit is not necessary for the staff member they are sending to you and that if it turns out they were wrong that they will pay any costs incurred.


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## becky (12 May 2008)

truthseeker said:


> Why would you even have an argument with them? All you have to do is tell them that you want it in writing from them that a work permit is not necessary for the staff member they are sending to you and that if it turns out they were wrong that they will pay any costs incurred.


 
I try not to agrue but her superior attitude set me off.  

BTW its the employers responsibilty to ensure that their employees are eligible to work.


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## becky (12 May 2008)

Should also say that I deal with a good few agencies anf the rest of them are a pleasure to deal with.  I've had reason to recomend them to other colleagues so they don't have to cold call as much.


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## truthseeker (12 May 2008)

becky said:


> BTW its the employers responsibilty to ensure that their employees are eligible to work.


 
I understand that but Id imagine telling an annoying recruitement agency person who is stating BS that if they are willing to commit in writing to costs if they are wrong will sufficiently silence them. Or alternatively ask to speak to their manager and inform them that their staff is stating rubbish on the phone.


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## becky (12 May 2008)

truthseeker said:


> I understand that but Id imagine telling an annoying recruitement agency person who is stating BS that if they are willing to commit in writing to costs if they are wrong will sufficiently silence them. Or alternatively ask to speak to their manager and inform them that their staff is stating rubbish on the phone.


 

I actually had in an email.  I've just blacklisted her.


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## rmelly (12 May 2008)

becky said:


> I actually had in an email. I've just blacklisted her.


 
blackmailed her into doing what?


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## becky (12 May 2008)

rmelly said:


> blackmailed her into doing what?


 
Blacklisted - meaning I don't give her any business.


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## MrMan (12 May 2008)

> I just want to start a thread about the most dislikeable professions which are worthy of genuine critisism



Just a few bones to pick from your list, for the record I inhabit the no.1 spot.


> You can't believe a word they say



Maybe you have trust issues, is paranoia the latest craze?



> They get a lot of money for doing very little sometimes


So jealousy is also an issue. You do understand that it tends to be the companies who make the big money, and what looks like little work on the outside is generally not the case. 



> They often have no third level education, but charge a lot more than people who have studied for years. The only course they need to go on is "How to keep a straight face while telling the biggest lie"


So with third level education the previous points are null and void? The majority of auctioneers coming through now are all third level graduates, but I don't see that altering the very skewed mindset of some people. 

What do you do by the way?


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## Purple (12 May 2008)

Whiskey said:


> I just want to start a thread about the most dislikeable professions which are worthy of genuine critisism
> 
> Top of my list is Estate Agent because
> 1. You can't believe a word they say
> ...



In a post that is notable for it's lack of reason or logic this section is particularly offensive. 
To reply:
1. So sweeping it's meaningless.
2. It's open to anyone so if so then fair play to them.
3. So what if they have no third level qualification?  It has no bearing on how good they are at their job. The rest of your point is nonsense.


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## DavyJones (12 May 2008)

Whiskey is just giving his opinion, that doesn't make him wrong or right so keep yer hair on. For what its worth I too wouldn't trust an EA as far as I could throw them, (no offense MrMan, I'm sure your lovely).  My top three would be:

1 Taffic warden
2 Door men
3 Clowns


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## Caveat (12 May 2008)

OP can't respond BTW - not a frequent poster.


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## Purple (12 May 2008)

DavyJones said:


> Whiskey is just giving his opinion, that doesn't make him wrong or right so keep yer hair on. For what its worth I too wouldn't trust an EA as far as I could throw them, (no offense MrMan, I'm sure your lovely).  My top three would be:
> 
> 1 Taffic warden
> 2 Door men
> 3 Clowns


The OP suggested that they are worthy of "genuine critisism".
That's a bit more than just an opinion.


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## Purple (12 May 2008)

Staples said:


> I can't speak for the OP but I took from that that they're speaking from a position of perceived expertise that isn't commensurate with any formal qualification in the the field (if indeed, one even exists).
> 
> In other words, they've nothing to support their bullsh!t>


Are you suggesting that a qualification stops people from BS'ing?
I know plenty of people who have extensive expertise in their field who have no formal qualification in that field.


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## DavyJones (12 May 2008)

Obvisouly OP has had bad experiance with stated pro's, although I do agree with you on the 3rd level education being irrelevant.


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## Purple (12 May 2008)

DavyJones said:


> Obvisouly OP has had bad experiance with stated pro's, although I do agree with you on the 3rd level education being irrelevant.



In most cases yes. I would not like to be treated by a doctor who has no medical degree etc but I helped out a friend who took advice on an employment law issue from a solicitor who worked for a major firm of solicitors in Dublin and another friend who runs a large HR department pointed out that the advice received was incorrect in law. This didn't stop them from issuing a massive bill. This was a good example of an incompetent lawyer and how her firm closed ranks around her when she screwed up but that doesn't mean that all solicitors can be tarred with that brush.


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## pjq (12 May 2008)

I think that the OP has contradicted himself and should immediately remove Estate Agents from the list because they are do not belong to a Profession like Doctors , Accountants Nurses or Engineers . Estate Agents don't study for years in order to be able to carry out their activities .

I did a quick search on Wikipedia to support my argument ;
pjq


Quote:
Professional

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A professional can be either a person in a profession (a specific kind of work) or in sports (a sportsman/sportwomans doing sports for payment). Sometimes it is also used to indicate a special level of quality of goods or tools.......

A professional is a worker required to possess a large knowledge derived from extensive academic (usually tertiary), with the training being almost always formalized. Typical professions include Architects, Engineers, Lawyers or Doctors.......

A profession is an occupation that requires extensive training and the study and mastery of specialized knowledge, and usually has a professional association, ethical code and process of certification or licensing. Examples are: librarianship, accounting, law, teaching, architecture, medicine, finance, the military, the clergy, nursing, ....

In the United Kingdom residential estate agents are largely unregulated (although legal provision exists to introduce regulation). Some estate agents are members of the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors (RICS), the principal body for UK real estate professionals. However, the vast majority of RICS members — known as Chartered Surveyors — who practice estate agency do so on commercial property.
For residential property a trade association, the National Association of Estate Agents (NAEA), exists, but as a non-professional body it has limited scope for disciplining members when appropriate.


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## Purple (12 May 2008)

pjq said:


> I think that the OP has contradicted himself and should immediately remove Estate Agents from the list because they are do not belong to a Profession like Doctors , Accountants Nurses or Engineers . Estate Agents don't study for years in order to be able to carry out their activities .
> 
> I did a quick search on Wikipedia to support my argument ;
> pjq
> ...



I have heard it said that the only real professions are law and medicine.
I'm a tradesman so it's not applicable to me either way.


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## MrMan (13 May 2008)

> I think that the OP has contradicted himself and should immediately remove Estate Agents from the list because they are do not belong to a Profession like Doctors , Accountants Nurses or Engineers . Estate Agents don't study for years in order to be able to carry out their activities .


From your thinly veiled jibe, I take it that you have the same viewpoint as the OP, but if you want to make a valid point you may want to stretch your search beyond wikipedia for sources. I don't get the whole 'profession' debate anyway, why are people so irate when it comes to EA's describing themselves as professional. Could it be that EA's are getting above their station aswell as earning tons of cash for absolutley no work, and any work they do is deceitful?

When people are asked the following questions the answers are generally similiar to this;
What is your perception od EA's - 'They can't be trusted, blah blah blah'

Have you ever had a bad personal experience in dealing with an EA - 'Ah, no'.


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## truthseeker (13 May 2008)

MrMan said:


> From your thinly veiled jibe, I take it that you have the same viewpoint as the OP, but if you want to make a valid point you may want to stretch your search beyond wikipedia for sources. I don't get the whole 'profession' debate anyway, why are people so irate when it comes to EA's describing themselves as professional. Could it be that EA's are getting above their station aswell as earning tons of cash for absolutley no work, and any work they do is deceitful?
> 
> When people are asked the following questions the answers are generally similiar to this;
> What is your perception od EA's - 'They can't be trusted, blah blah blah'
> ...


 

I dont understand what peoples problems with EAs are!! 
"They cant be trusted" - Im sure that anyone who says this is suffering from paranoia and they probably dont trust their mechanic, plumber, dentist, electrician or anyone else who knows more about a given field than they do. If you were selling your home youd be delighted with the very same qualities that you complain about as a buyer.
"They get paid a lot of money for doing very little" - I challenge anyone who says this to list their own home on daft.ie, take photos of the property that shows it in its best light, organise viewings, answer detailed questions from possible buyers, describe it accurately, negotiate to get the best price and deal with one or more interested parties to come to an agreement that suits both buyer and seller. Then come back and tell us if they felt they did 'very little'.
"Formal education and charging more than people who have studied for years" - Id really have to question the intelligence of someone studying for years if the outcome was that they made less money than someone in the same field with no education. A formal education is hardly the be all and end all anyway, I know plenty of people with common sense and business acumen who have learned their skills from practical work in a specific environment.

MrMan - for the record to answer your 2 questions - my perception of EAs are that they are people doing a job thats needed otherwise it wouldnt exist at all.

I have had a bad personal experience dealing with an EA but it had nothing to do with the job in question and more to do with an individual who just had bad manners regardless of what job she was in.


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## Staples (13 May 2008)

Purple said:


> Are you suggesting that a qualification stops people from BS'ing?


 
No. But if you have a qualification in your supposed field of expertise, it might earn you the benefit of the doubt.

Every doctor/lawyer/plumber, etc I've ever encountered, for example, could be a first class purveyor of guff but his/her qualification gives them an expertise I'm not in a position to dispute (imperfect knowledge).

In the case of estate agents, no such formal expertise is required. The way some of them casually talk up house values is something that not even the best qualified economists or financial experts would ever be comfortable doing. 

That they purport to have an insight to how property prices will fare is a bit rich to say the least. In a lot of cases it's based on nothing stronger than pub talk.


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## MrMan (13 May 2008)

> I have had a bad personal experience dealing with an EA but it had nothing to do with the job in question and more to do with an individual who just had bad manners regardless of what job she was in.



I think this has been the case for alot of people,they have come across a rather brash or arrogant individual, but unfortunately other people seem to let an individual colour their entire perception of EA's. 



> No. But if you have a qualification in your supposed field of expertise, it might earn you the benefit of the doubt.



I'm qualified, but that earns me no leeway when it comes to peoples perceptions. I've had people tell me straight to my face that I'm a liar and they didn't see anything wrong with that as if its par for the course. The fact that you go about your business in an honest fashion doesn't exempt you from being the target of lazy stereotypes like the ones you are leaning towards.



> That they purport to have an insight to how property prices will fare is a bit rich to say the least



Why so?



> In a lot of cases it's based on nothing stronger than pub talk.


I'd say in alot of cases its just small talk during viewings, granted young in experienced EA's might lean towards gossip style 'property analysis' but I'm sure most people can see through that, and its more naivity than malice.


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## Caveat (13 May 2008)

I think the thread itself is mean spirited and probably a result of bad experiences as has been suggested.

I have had bad experiences with solicitors, engineers, estate agents, doctors....etc... like a lot of people.

I have also had plenty of good experiences too...like a lot of people.

As it happens, my last EA experience was as professional and close to perfect as I could have hoped for.  However, to suggest that this is representative of the industry is just as unreasonable as to suggest they are all liars/incompetent etc.


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## Staples (13 May 2008)

MrMan said:


> Why so?


 
Because any sort of insight on the future of property values should properly be based on a thorough analysis of ALL relevant factors - economic, financial, political. sociological, environmental etc - not just a hunch.   Even with this knowledge, it's impossible to call things correctly but at least if provides for an informed reasoning.

With respect to the EA profession, it EAs had this kind of knowledge they'd probably be doing something else.  EA's should confine their advice to the things like the immediate locality of a property, its structural soundness, any work required, plans for the area, etc. Making comments on whether the market has peaked/bottomed out etc is beyond their (and most people's) competence.


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## MrMan (13 May 2008)

EA's dont have crystal balls, but more often than not they are asked something along the lines of 'do you think the market will fall anymore' so rather than volunteering info that as you correctly say cant be backed up its generally a cae of trying to answer a difficult question. one of the big 'no no's' is to reply 'I don't know' to any question. 




> Because any sort of insight on the future of property values should properly be based on a thorough analysis of ALL relevant factors


I agree with you, but they should have reasoned analysis for the location that they are dealing with, as in future development, infrastructure changes etc.


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## Purple (13 May 2008)

Staples said:


> No. But if you have a qualification in your supposed field of expertise, it might earn you the benefit of the doubt.


It might but I'll take experience over qualification nine times out of ten.



Staples said:


> Every doctor/lawyer/plumber, etc I've ever encountered, for example, could be a first class purveyor of guff but his/her qualification gives them an expertise I'm not in a position to dispute (imperfect knowledge).


 Teachers often complain that because people have been through the education system they all seem to feel qualified to comment on the education system in detail. The same seems to be the case with the property market. While they are not economists they do work in the market and as such are exposed to it on a daily basis. 



Staples said:


> In the case of estate agents, no such formal expertise is required. The way some of them casually talk up house values is something that not even the best qualified economists or financial experts would ever be comfortable doing.


 Estate agents talk up property, stock brokers talk up stocks, furniture salesmen talk up furniture, snake oil salesmen talk up shake oil. Get the picture?



Staples said:


> That they purport to have an insight to how property prices will fare is a bit rich to say the least. In a lot of cases it's based on nothing stronger than pub talk.


 Pub talk and their day-to-day experience. Any person intelligent enough to tie their own shoelaces will understand that they will not talk down what they are selling. Fiat dealers don't tell you that they sell rubbish cars, Turkeys don't vote for Christmas etc.


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## rabbit (13 May 2008)

MrMan said:


> When people are asked the following questions the answers are generally similiar to this;
> What is your perception od EA's - 'They can't be trusted, blah blah blah'
> 
> Have you ever had a bad personal experience in dealing with an EA - 'Ah, no'.


 
But when asked " do you know someone who had a bad personal experience in dealing with an EA ? " I would suspect most people - in Ireland anyway - would say yes.


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## Purple (13 May 2008)

rabbit said:


> But when asked " do you know someone who had a bad personal experience in dealing with an EA ? " I would suspect most people - in Ireland anyway - would say yes.


I had a very bad experience dealing with an EA but the last one I dealt with was superb. I was more than happy to pay him he fee as I thought he provided excellent value for money. 
My experience with solicitors have been more negative than positive but I would not make blanket judgements about all solicitors. Doing so with be lazy and meaningless.


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## truthseeker (13 May 2008)

Purple said:


> My experience with solicitors have been more negative than positive but I would not make blanket judgements about all solicitors. Doing so with be lazy and meaningless.


 
I wholeheartedly agree.


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## Staples (13 May 2008)

Purple said:


> Estate agents talk up property, stock brokers talk up stocks, furniture salesmen talk up furniture, snake oil salesmen talk up shake oil. Get the picture?


 
There's a difference between selling for the sake of it and good customer service. It's one thing talking something up - it's another to talk about something you really aren't qualified (formally or otherwise) to talk about. You can point out the positives without telling porkies. You can point out, for example, that a Fiat is cheap, good value for money and is economical on petrol. If you were to say, however, that it had a Ferrari engine and held its value better than any other car, you'd be stretching things unreasonably. 

As Mr Man has revealed, it's something of a no-no to say "I don't know" in the EA industry and so the temptation is to lie and pretend you do. However this doesn't exclude the more reasonable "It's difficult to say with any certainty". That would be an honest answer (God forbid). An EA can "talk up" the quality of the build, the immediate vicinity and the local amenities with some level of competence. "Talking up" the market, however, in the absence any support, is just plain deceitful.

I would accept that in any selling occupation there are both genuine and deceitful operators. However, I believe that the functions and structures of the EA sector make this a breeding ground for the latter.


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## Purple (13 May 2008)

Staples said:


> I believe that the functions and structures of the EA sector make this a breeding ground for the latter.


 Can you expand on that point please?


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## rabbit (13 May 2008)

Staples said:


> I would accept that in any selling occupation there are both genuine and deceitful operators*.* However, I believe that the functions and structures of the EA sector make this a breeding ground for the latter.


 
There are genuine + deceitful operators in all aspects of life.   However, I do not think even second hand car salemen - never mind a salesperson in  a shop for example - would like to be compared with EA's though.


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## ubiquitous (13 May 2008)

Staples said:


> "Talking up" the market, however, in the absence any support, is just plain deceitful.


Yes, but from 1994 to 2007, surely it would have been deceitful for an EA to deny that the market was rising?


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## Staples (13 May 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> Yes, but from 1994 to 2007, surely it would have been deceitful for an EA to deny that the market was rising?


 
In any of those years, EAs had no more knowledge of how things were going to pan out than anybody else.  You can comment on how things have gone in the past but to suggest that this forms the basis for future performance is wrong.  Financial "products" are required to make explicit that past performance is no guarantee of future returns (or words to that effect).


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## MrMan (13 May 2008)

> But when asked " do you know someone who had a bad personal experience in dealing with an EA ? " I would suspect most people - in Ireland anyway - would say yes.


I've already stated that the response was generally no to that question. My point being many people know of a friend of a friend that got screwed by an EA who used a phanthom bid to up the price etc. Generally its unsubstantiated. i do understand that people hate to part with their money and want a bargain, but its not the EA's job to sell for as little as possible.



> As Mr Man has revealed, it's something of a no-no to say "I don't know" in the EA industry and so the temptation is to lie and pretend you do. However this doesn't exclude the more reasonable "It's difficult to say with any certainty". That would be an honest answer (God forbid).



You have taken my point and twisted it to suit your argument. When I say its something of a 'no no' I mean that you are expected to have the answers or the client will lose faith, I don't mean make up the answers as this will obviously not enhance your reputation or indeed further your career, it is a small island after all. 

Staples, I'm not sure what it is you expect of an EA when performing their duties, but I would say that understanding your local market is of paramount importance and that would include having knowledge beyond that bof the public domain so that you can provide educated assessments on where things are going.



> However, I do not think even second hand car salemen - never mind a salesperson in a shop for example - would like to be compared with EA's though.



Heaven forbid someone would be compared to an EA, they might need counseling to get over the trauma.



> In any of those years, EAs had no more knowledge of how things were going to pan out than anybody else.


EA's tend to have closer dealings with developers etc so it is plausible that they would know more about the local market than the average joe.



> I would accept that in any selling occupation there are both genuine and deceitful operators. However, I believe that the functions and structures of the EA sector make this a breeding ground for the latter.



I would be interested to hear the basis of this point.


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## redstar (13 May 2008)

MrMan said:


> When I say its something of a 'no no' I mean that you are expected to have the answers or the client will lose faith, I don't mean make up the answers as this will obviously not enhance your reputation or indeed further your career, it is a small island after all.



I think you may underestimate what a client expects. Having been a 'client' of a EA's three times, i expected honesty, and if they didn't have an answer then let them say so, and maybe a pointer to who might have the answer. This comes across as more professional and honest than trying to b**s**t. This is true of any profession, not just EA's though.

Successful businesses usually know their clients expectations extremely well.


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## MrMan (13 May 2008)

> I think you may underestimate what a client expects.



how so? I've just stated that we should know the answers and that making up an answer isn't the way to go. Obviously when the questions are very pointed outside of our field of knowledge i.e the structural make up of the property, most EA's will point out that only the engineer will be able to provide answers in full.


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## redstar (13 May 2008)

You said 





> you are expected to have the answers or the client will lose faith,


not that 'you should know the answers'. You expect that a client will lose faith if you do not have the answers. I disagree. How you handle not knowing the answers is the key to being classed as useless or honest.

I certainly wouldn't expect made-up answers.


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## DavyJones (13 May 2008)

with that revelation in the news some weeks back, where EA's were stating higher sold prices in national papers, thats blatant lying and alot of companies were doing it. It does make you think that the EA business is a bit off.


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## MrMan (13 May 2008)

> not that 'you should know the answers'


I don't quite see how someone expecting that you should know the answers and 'you are expected to have the answers' is that different


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## Staples (13 May 2008)

MrMan said:


> When I say its something of a 'no no' I mean that you are expected to have the answers or the client will lose faith,


 
Well if you don't know something and give an answer anyway, that's a deception, whether you choose to recognise it as such or not.  I'd agree with Redstar that as a client, you don't necessarily expect the EA to have all the answers.  If, as you've pointed out, an EA can't attest to a property's structural soundness, why do most of them feel at ease to talk about the future values of property. 



MrMan said:


> Staples, I'm not sure what it is you expect of an EA when performing their duties, but I would say that understanding your local market is of paramount importance and that would include having knowledge beyond that bof the public domain so that you can provide educated assessments on where things are going.,


 
I'd agree that the role of an EA should be to understand their local market but I fail to see what knowledge they have that's somehow beyond the public domain that allows to make projections that the rest of us are expected to accept.



MrMan said:


> I would be interested to hear the basis of this point.


 

Where to start.......

It's a largely unregulated sector even within the profession.  There's no particular incentive for EA's to behave ethically.  There's limited chance of serious censure.

Very often, the EA has both the seller and vendor as clients and can know how far a buyer can stretch financially.  This opens the risk of the price being raised to the maximum point the buyer can reach.

Houses are imperfect products in the sense that they can't be reproduced to meet buyer demand.  If there's only one "1 High Street" and there's a lot of interest, the EA can encourage gazumping (hope I've spellled that correctly) if they so wish.  

The percentage based commission, IMHO, encourages greed and provides an incentive for the pursuit of dubious selling techniques.

The nature of property is such that it represents a significant outlay for most punters.  Yet there is no censure for EAs who take this responsibility lightly.  You don't have to go beyond this site to hear of people who were sold a valueless pig in a poke, yet the EAs can carry on regardless.  Sellers of financial services are at least subject to IFSRA regulations, however weak they may be.   

I'm not suggesting that the EA sector is wholly populated with chancers or that is the only sector that might attract them.  My point is that it does nothing to discourage them.


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## Staples (13 May 2008)

[


MrMan said:


> When I say its something of a 'no no' I mean that you are expected to have the answers or the client will lose faith,


 
Well if you don't know something and give an answer anyway, that's a deception, whether you choose to recognise it as such or not. I'd agree with Redstar that as a client, you don't necessarily expect the EA to have all the answers but you'd expect them to distinguish between what they actually know and what they're obviously making up.  If you catch them out on one point, how can you trust anything else they say?  If, as you've pointed out, an EA can't attest to a property's structural soundness without referring you to an engineer, why do most of them feel at ease to talk about the future values of property without referring you to an economist? 



MrMan said:


> Staples, I'm not sure what it is you expect of an EA when performing their duties, but I would say that understanding your local market is of paramount importance and that would include having knowledge beyond that bof the public domain so that you can provide educated assessments on where things are going.,


 
I'd agree that the role of an EA should be to understand their local market but I fail to see what knowledge they have that's somehow beyond the public domain that allows to make projections that the rest of us are expected to accept.



MrMan said:


> I would be interested to hear the basis of this point.


 
Where to start.......

It's a largely unregulated sector, without any apparent self-regulation. There's no particular incentive for EA's to behave ethically. There's limited chance of serious censure.

Very often, the EA has both the seller and vendor as clients and can know how far a buyer can stretch financially. This opens the risk of the price being raised to the maximum point the buyer can reach.

Houses are imperfect products in the sense that they can't be reproduced to meet buyer demand. If there's only one "1 High Street" and there's a lot of interest, the EA can encourage gazumping (hope I've spellled that correctly) if they so wish. 

The percentage based commission, IMHO, encourages greed and provides an incentive for the pursuit of dubious selling techniques.

The nature of property is such that it represents a significant outlay for most punters. Yet there is no censure for EAs who take this responsibility lightly. You don't have to go beyond this site to hear of people who were sold a valueless pig in a poke, yet the EAs can carry on regardless. Sellers of financial services are at least subject to IFSRA regulations, however weak they may be. 

The practice of not allowing more than one agent per property inhibits competition and effectively traps both the buyer and seller. 

I'm not suggesting that the EA sector is wholly populated with chancers or that is the only sector that might attract them. My point is that it does nothing to discourage them.


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## Purple (13 May 2008)

Staples said:


> Where to start.......
> 
> It's a largely unregulated sector even within the profession.  There's no particular incentive for EA's to behave ethically.  There's limited chance of serious censure.
> 
> ...


 The EA is employed by the seller. The seller is the only person who should seek advice from the EA.
As for "There's no particular incentive for EA's to behave ethically.  There's limited chance of serious censure", the same could be said of solicitors and doctors.


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## MrMan (13 May 2008)

> with that revelation in the news some weeks back, where EA's were stating higher sold prices in national papers, thats blatant lying and alot of companies were doing it. It does make you think that the EA business is a bit off.


I think they were giving misleading price regions i.e it sold for under €800,000, rather than the actual price of €705,000. The IAVI have come out strongly to members in light of this and now sales prices can only be quoted as the actual price and with both buyer and sellers consent, so if anything there will be lass sales info available. I don't think it was a case of that practice being the norm, sure the EA's may talk it up, but most would be wary of over selling the market.
Why would I say a house sold for €100,000 more than it did when it will only bring me grief from the next vendor wondering why theres is failing to attract the same price?
It is short sighted and ill judged, so the IAVI may be saving a few firms from themselves.


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## Sylvester3 (13 May 2008)

The estate agent we used when we first moved from the UK to Ireland was extremely helpful - they even went the extra lengths to vouch for us at the local bank and get us our first Irish bank account. They also advised us on all the different things we needed to have in order before we completed our move, such as getting our social numbers etc. They were really wonderful to us, to the point that we felt genuinely bad that they weren't the ones to be offering the house we bought after 18 months of renting through them. We still send them chocolates at the end of the year,

I have come across less pleasant estate agents, but they simply didn't get our business.


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## ubiquitous (13 May 2008)

The tendency of EAs to arrange mortgages on behalf of people to whom they are arranging property sales is a scandalous conflict of interest, in my opinion. However they are not alone in this. Many banks, accountants and solicitors seem to have no problem with conflicts of interest.


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## Purple (13 May 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> The tendency of EAs to arrange mortgages on behalf of people to whom they are arranging property sales is a scandalous conflict of interest, in my opinion. However they are not alone in this. Many banks, accountants and solicitors seem to have no problem with conflicts of interest.


Agreed


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## MrMan (13 May 2008)

> The tendency of EAs to arrange mortgages on behalf of people to whom they are arranging property sales is a scandalous conflict of interest, in my opinion. However they are not alone in this. Many banks, accountants and solicitors seem to have no problem with conflicts of interest.



I agree too, I don't see it lasting if the regulatory authority ever comes about.


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## DavyJones (13 May 2008)

I belive that this thread could be about any one of our professions, trades, vocations, whatever. fair play to MrMan for defending his position while recognizing the faults in it.


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## truthseeker (13 May 2008)

DavyJones said:


> I belive that this thread could be about any one of our professions, trades, vocations, whatever. fair play to MrMan for defending his position while recognizing the faults in it.


 
You are absolutely correct. In fact this thread opened with a list of 3 hated professions and then turned into EA bashing as many other threads have done around here recently.


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## Purple (13 May 2008)

DavyJones said:


> I belive that this thread could be about any one of our professions, trades, vocations, whatever. fair play to MrMan for defending his position while recognizing the faults in it.



Agreed again.


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## MrMan (13 May 2008)

> Well if you don't know something and give an answer anyway, that's a deception, whether you choose to recognise it as such or not


I haven't said otherwise, so we agree that correct answers are the way to go. 



> If, as you've pointed out, an EA can't attest to a property's structural soundness without referring you to an engineer, why do most of them feel at ease to talk about the future values of property without referring you to an economist


Economists are a little harder to tack down and by the time that they have told 100 different possible scenarios the property would be sold. EA's are giving their opinion they can't be expected to provide their opinion as a definite fact as to future values.



> I'd agree that the role of an EA should be to understand their local market but I fail to see what knowledge they have that's somehow beyond the public domain that allows to make projections that the rest of us are expected to accept.


There are people possibly like yourself that will research property and areas and the like but the majority of people that I will interact with will have no real knowledge on what is proposed for the area or what is in the development plan etc, so to the average punter the EA will have superior knowledge on the local market. 



> It's a largely unregulated sector, without any apparent self-regulation



Something that 95% of IAVI members want changed.



> Very often, the EA has both the seller and vendor as clients and can know how far a buyer can stretch financially


Not as often as you think although it is happening more frequently now, but that just means you have two buyers that are in a chain so its not as attractive as it sounds.



> Houses are imperfect products in the sense that they can't be reproduced to meet buyer demand. If there's only one "1 High Street" and there's a lot of interest, the EA can encourage gazumping (hope I've spellled that correctly) if they so wish.


Unfortunately gazumping is legal but is less likely to happen in todays market, an EA is legally obliged to pass on all offers, to do otherwise would be mean they were not providing a full service to their client.



> The percentage based commission, IMHO, encourages greed and provides an incentive for the pursuit of dubious selling techniques.



I don't see how the fee structure would alter the sales technique.



> people who were sold a valueless pig in a poke, yet the EAs can carry on regardless


How can you blame an EA for selling a property on their books, its the purchaser that makes the final decision.



> The practice of not allowing more than one agent per property inhibits competition and effectively traps both the buyer and seller.



Vendors decide how many they want, but EA's rightly can decide not to deal with a property if its a joint agency.


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## Staples (14 May 2008)

Purple said:


> The EA is employed by the seller. The seller is the only person who should seek advice from the EA..


 
So in that case they _differ _from furniture and snake oil salespeople?




Purple said:


> As for "There's no particular incentive for EA's to behave ethically. There's limited chance of serious censure", the same could be said of solicitors and doctors.


 
And many others besides. I acknowledged this at the end of my post.

Mr. Man. I appreciate your candour and acknowledge that not all EAs should be tarred with the same brush.


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## Remix (15 May 2008)

The German President didn't pull any punches in letting us know what his most dislikeable profession is:




> Also in Wednesday, it was reported that German President Horst Köhler – a former head of the International Monetary Fund – called for tougher regulations and the reconstruction of a “continental European banking culture” in response to global financial markets which have become “a monster” and “must be put back in its place.”
> 
> The German president compared bankers with alchemists who were responsible for “massive destruction of assets”.
> 
> Bankers “have made huge mistakes”, Köhler told Stern magazine in an interview to be published today. He said in relation to the subprime crisis: “I am still waiting for a clear, audible mea culpa. The only good thing about this crisis is that it has made clear to any thinking, responsible person in the sector that international financial markets have developed into a monster that must be put back in its place.


 
monster link


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## AlastairSC (16 May 2008)

What's the problem with traffic wardens?


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## S.L.F (16 May 2008)

I don't believe the real dirt bags of Irish society have been discussed yet.

Bouncers!


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## Sylvester3 (16 May 2008)

AlastairSC said:


> What's the problem with traffic wardens?



They chose to be traffic wardens! Anyone who does that has to have a problem....


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## MrMan (16 May 2008)

> What's the problem with traffic wardens?



You can't believe a word they say.


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## bamboozle (16 May 2008)

Well after my experiences this week, the wonderful profession of solicitors tops the pile for me- I often wonder when they sat their law exams did any of them ever finish within the time allowed cause I’ve never met one yet capable of meeting a deadline in the real world


Thereafter Air Hostesses & politicians


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## Caveat (16 May 2008)

MrMan said:


> You can't believe a word they say.


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## Guest122 (20 May 2008)

P*** Boys/Toilet Attendants. I can quite easily go to the toilet myself, I don't need someone to hand me a tissue to dry my hands...

BB


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## Purple (20 May 2008)

Breffni Boy2 said:


> P*** Boys/Toilet Attendants. I can quite easily go to the toilet myself, I don't need someone to hand me a tissue to dry my hands...
> 
> BB



Is that really a profession?



(what did you do with Breffni Boy1?)


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## rmelly (20 May 2008)

Purple said:


> Is that really a profession?
> 
> 
> 
> (what did you do with Breffni Boy1?)


 

Yes, they are required to take a course in advanced 'man servant' - ing.

Plus they need to be an expert 'perfumiere' etc.


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## AlastairSC (20 May 2008)

Sylvester3 said:


> They chose to be traffic wardens! Anyone who does that has to have a problem....


 
Perhaps they enjoy keeping ignoramuses (ignorami?) from thoughtlessly parking up on wide kerbs/ in disabled parking spaces/in load bays etc? Kilkenny would be gridlocked without our hard-working and diligent wardens. I regularly park in other places (paid spaces etc) and then walk downtown to see some ******  parked up on the pavement or in a disabled parking space. (Excuse my bad language)

I think that the Irish are generally too tolerant of the "Ah sure, it'll be all right" approach. Parking rules are generally sensible, safety-based rules (unlike some inappropriate speed limits, for example) and are there for convenience of other road users. Why should some people flout them and expect to get away with it? If I got a ticket for unlawful parking there would be little to dispute about it - wardens are just doing their job.


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## Sylvester3 (20 May 2008)

AlastairSC said:


> Perhaps they enjoy keeping ignoramuses (ignorami?) from thoughtlessly parking up on wide kerbs/ in disabled parking spaces/in load bays etc? Kilkenny would be gridlocked without our hard-working and diligent wardens. I regularly park in other places (paid spaces etc) and then walk downtown to see some ******  parked up on the pavement or in a disabled parking space. (Excuse my bad language)
> 
> I think that the Irish are generally too tolerant of the "Ah sure, it'll be all right" approach. Parking rules are generally sensible, safety-based rules (unlike some inappropriate speed limits, for example) and are there for convenience of other road users. Why should some people flout them and expect to get away with it? If I got a ticket for unlawful parking there would be little to dispute about it - wardens are just doing their job.



Hey I winked! That allows me to say anything as if it were a wry comment with no sting! 

Anyway I have never had a parking ticket so I haven't come a cropper to the auld traffic wardens, and I have in fact congratulated a clamper I saw clamping a vehicle parked in an incredibly stupid position blocking a street. Sometimes they do a grand job, but IMHO too many are jobsworths chasing targets and to willingly choose such a profession..... there has to be something wrong surely?


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## DavyJones (20 May 2008)

Sylvester3 said:


> Hey I winked! That allows me to say anything as if it were a wry comment with no sting!
> 
> Anyway I have never had a parking ticket so I haven't come a cropper to the auld traffic wardens, and I have in fact congratulated a clamper I saw clamping a vehicle parked in an incredibly stupid position blocking a street. Sometimes they do a grand job, but IMHO too many are jobsworths chasing targets and to willingly choose such a profession..... there has to be something wrong surely?


 

So they clamped a car that was causing an obstruction, so it would be there longer,. Clever bunch, those clampers.


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## AlastairSC (21 May 2008)

DavyJones said:


> So they clamped a car that was causing an obstruction, so it would be there longer,. Clever bunch, those clampers.



Yep, clamping does seem counter-intuitive. Tickets (and for the really selfish parker towing) would keep things moving better.....


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## Complainer (21 May 2008)

DavyJones said:


> So they clamped a car that was causing an obstruction, so it would be there longer,. Clever bunch, those clampers.


It's the 'teach a man to fish' approach which solves the root cause. You can be pretty sure he won't park there again the next day.


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