# Irish non contributory state pension question



## Sentinel100 (18 Jun 2015)

An elderly relative is in receipt of the non contributory Irish pension for the past 7-8 years. The current weekly full pension rate is around EUR219 and this is what he receives. However, he also receives a UK retirement contributory pension of around £100 per week and has been in receipt of that for around the same timeframe (7-8 yrs). Now for purposes of Irish pension, he is being asked to declare if he has any other "income". Does his UK pension count as "income" and if so, what impact might that have on his Irish pension?


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## Gerry Canning (18 Jun 2015)

I suspect that UK pension has advised IR authorities of UK pension. There is agreement on info exchange.

It is probable that had Ir known of Uk pension his Ir NON-contributory pension would have been lowered.

It means he does owe back a % of NON contributory he has received.

He might as well come clean and see what can be done , and how it will reduce his NON contrib pensuion.i.


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## Monbretia (18 Jun 2015)

A trip to Citizens Info for some advice on how to deal with this might be a good idea or at least a phone call to their helpline.  The UK pension is of course income and would have to be taken into account in the means test for the non contributory pension but a bit of advice on how best to deal with the problem now is probably a good idea.  It won't be the first time they have had similar queries!


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## Sentinel100 (19 Jun 2015)

thanks.
1) I think that UK authorities did advise the IR authorities re the UK pension at the start (or so he believes). If that's the case, then the IR authorities knew and presumably would have made any necessary adjustment to the IR pension??
2) Contacted Citizens Info as advised and took them about 30mins to give a full answer - complicated stuff...don't know how an elderly person could possibly be expected to understand how this all works.....anyway, in their view the IR pension should have been lowered by up to E60 pw...if this is correct, then he owes back a considerable amount....which he doesn't have....also, he lives in a rented flat paying E150pw, is that not taken into consideration when working out his net income?


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## orka (19 Jun 2015)

Sentinel100 said:


> then the IR authorities knew and presumably would have made any necessary adjustment to the IR pension??


€219 is the maximum payment (if he is aged less than 80) so it doesn't look like any adjustment was applied.


Sentinel100 said:


> 2) Contacted Citizens Info as advised and took them about 30mins to give a full answer - complicated stuff...don't know how an elderly person could possibly be expected to understand how this all works.....anyway, in their view the IR pension should have been lowered by up to E60 pw...


Have a read of http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/248_State-Pension-Non-Contributory.aspx - purely on the non-contributory pension, it looks like he might be being overpaid by more than €60 per week.

"_Any cash income you have is assessed in the means test. This includes income from a social security pension from another country._ "

"_The first €30 per week of means as assessed by the Department of Social Protection does not affect the rate of pension. After that, the pension is reduced by €2.50 each week for every €2.50 of means_." 

This is a strange wording - don't know why they don't just say 'after €30, the reduction is 100% of your other means.  £100 is about €140 so if your relative can only keep €30, the reduction could be as high as €110 per week.  However, the CI might have taken account of other things your relative might be entitled to - living alone allowance or rent supplement.  At the bottom of the linked page above there is a list of other benefits that your relative might be entitled to.


Sentinel100 said:


> he lives in a rented flat paying E150pw, is that not taken into consideration when working out his net income?


Expenditure is not considered when assessing the non-contributory pension - but, as above, your relative might be entitled to rent supplement.


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## orka (19 Jun 2015)

One other thing to maybe investigate - if your relative has a UK pension scheme pension, he might be entitled to some level of UK contributory pension from his years working there.


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## Sentinel100 (19 Jun 2015)

If he can find evidence that the IR authorities were made aware of his UK pension by the UK authorities, will that make any difference here?


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## Monbretia (19 Jun 2015)

I doubt it, the duty was on him to fill the application for pension with details of any other income or to notify them if his circumstances changed such as the receipt of the other pension.   If they expected it paid back which most likely they will then it will only be at an amount that won't take total income below normal social welfare however that is not going to be enough to pay €150 p.w. in rent.  Are you in Dublin area?


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## Sentinel100 (19 Jun 2015)

yes in Dublin area. from what he has told me, he got the UK pension prior to the Irish one and that the UK authorities had been in communication with the Irish authorities at that time (and possibly subsequently)...he has savings of around 10k but that's it....if I'm calculating the possible overpayment correctly, it's a lot of money >20k...he's a frail man, not in greatest of health, not sure if he could cope with this....


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## Monbretia (19 Jun 2015)

Maybe you could call to a Cit Info office with him to get some advice as it is a complicated subject.


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## Ann1 (20 Jun 2015)

It might be an idea to check the history of the claim with your relative... in reference to the application itself...
Did he have any Irish PRSI contributions during his working life...
If he had, did he initially apply for an Irish contributors pension using both Irish and UK contributions...EU pension rules. If this is the case and the result of the EU calculation was a very small Irish pension...he may then have been given the option of making a claim for a non contributors pension... which would pay him more. If this is the case it's possible that an error was made somewhere during the changeover and the pro rata element was never calculated by the pensions office.
Sometimes overpayments are reduced or cancelled if the department made a mistake that your relative could not reasonably be expected to have noticed.


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## Sentinel100 (20 Jun 2015)

Thanks to all for the replies/help to date - very much appreciated.
yes he did have some Irish PRSI contributions during his working life, however, not sure how he dealt with the original application - all he can tell me is that someone from SW came out to see him and he gave them copies of his birth cert/marriage cert etc....he doesn't seem to have much in the way of letters/documents from Irish SW, although he seems to have quite a few letters from UK/Newcastle, mostly advising of annual rises in the pension rate...is there any way to check the history of his Irish pension claim (other than by contacting Sligo?)...at the moment i have no way of checking what he applied for....


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## Black Sheep (20 Jun 2015)

Firstly I think it may be a good idea to obtain a copy of his Irish PRSI record. (You can do this on line, welfare.ie) This may give him a part Contributory Pension which when added to his UK pension may increase his income. As it stands his Irish pension would effectively be halved, and on top of that he would be paying back the overpayment to SW.
If he can find someone in his local CIC (or elsewhere) who has a good knowledge of pensions and negotiating his way through the arrears process it may be helpful.
It appears that when applying for his *Irish* pension he may not have declared his UK years/pension. A department Inspector would only call to his home only for an assessment for Non Contributory pension


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## Ann1 (20 Jun 2015)

Yes you can check with UK/Newcastle if Sligo requested a history of his National Insurance contributions..they will have that on record and will send you a copy if you request it. Your relative will need to speak with Newcastle customer service first and nominate you as a person who can make enquiries on his behalf. 

I note you say he gave SW a copy of his marriage certificate which might imply that his payment of €219 includes a payment for a dependent. 

 State Pension
Telephone: +44 (0) 191 218 7777


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## Monbretia (20 Jun 2015)

Sentinel 100, not sure if you have seen it but I sent you a msg with name of someone you could try for help with this.


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## Sentinel100 (20 Jun 2015)

again thanks to all...
i suspect he must have applied/received his Irish pension first and subsequently applied/received the contributory UK pension and not been aware to notify the Irish SW that he had received the UK pension - would seem to make some sense to me and would also reflect a genuine mistake.....such a mess


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## Sentinel100 (22 Jun 2015)

_Yes you can check with UK/Newcastle if Sligo requested a history of his National Insurance contributions..they will have that on record and will send you a copy if you request it. Your relative will need to speak with Newcastle customer service first and nominate you as a person who can make enquiries on his behalf. 

I note you say he gave SW a copy of his marriage certificate which might imply that his payment of €219 includes a payment for a dependent. 

State Pension
Telephone: +44 (0) 191 218 7777_


Spoke to Newcastle earlier (without relative present) and got lucky with an officer who was willing to speak to me (well, within limits..), asked them if they had any record of ever being in contact with Sligo....initially, they said no but then said that there was an open query since 2010 relating to them inquiring with Sligo as to whether my relative was entitled to an earlier UK pension.....at that point, the officer was reluctant to delve any further and went back to the standard line of requiring my relative to call and then nominate me to be able talk further with them....will try that later if I can...


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## Sentinel100 (23 Jun 2015)

Hi there, I need to find out precisely when my relative was awarded the Irish pension? Is there any way to do this online at all?


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## Black Sheep (23 Jun 2015)

Would it not be likely that his pension was payable from his 66th birthday. He would only be entitled to it from 66 onwards.  If he did not apply for it immediately it would probably be backdated to that date.

Do you or he have any paperwork. Following his application and visit from SW inspector he would have received a letter saying "your pension will be payable from ...date at €...."

You mention he is on pension for 7 or 8 years. What age is he now?
Is it paid through bank or PO.


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## Sentinel100 (23 Jun 2015)

no documents/paperwork from Irish SW at all.....the only stuff he does have is from Newcastle....he's 74 so I presume that it was awarded from age 66...he has a bank a/c and I guess that I can guide him in to requesting old statements......however, you know what older people can be like......tricky to deal with at the best of times....I was just hoping there was a simple way of getting your pension details online....


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## EFCAH84 (30 Dec 2020)

Hi just wondering if and how this was resolved? Slight difference in contributory Irish pension and less of a UK state pension


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## Saavy99 (30 Dec 2020)

Not sure what your question is here ....


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## EFCAH84 (30 Dec 2020)

Just wondering what the outcome was for the original poster as I too have a similar query?


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## Saavy99 (30 Dec 2020)

EFCAH84 said:


> Just wondering what the outcome was for the original poster as I too have a similar query?




What is your query?


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## EFCAH84 (3 Jan 2021)

Can someone be successfully in receipt of a contributory state pension (widows) from Ireland and also claim a small UK state pension €67a wk from when they themselves worked in the UK. Do the UK notify Ireland?


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## Black Sheep (3 Jan 2021)

As you have contributed to both Irish and UK pensions you are entitled to benefit from both countries. 

I don't see any reason why you need to notify Ireland unless you have other income which combined with the pensions would put you in the tax net. In that case you would need to talk to Revenue


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## Saavy99 (3 Jan 2021)

I am nearly sure you still have to submit a tax return every year even if no tax is due.


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## johnny2shoes (28 Jan 2021)

Not sure if this question can be asked on this thread but here goes anyway.

Does receipt of a small UK pension and fuel allowance by the husband  qualify an elderly couple for a UK medical card which can be used in this republic if their income here is more than the qualifying limit ?


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## Shirazman (30 Jan 2021)

The answer is that it may do, depending on his/their employment history in Ireland.

Best thing to do is to apply for one and see what comes back.


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## Bronte (31 Jan 2021)

EFCAH84 said:


> Can someone be successfully in receipt of a contributory state pension (widows) from Ireland and also claim a small UK state pension €67a wk from when they themselves worked in the UK. Do the UK notify Ireland?


Don’t get confused with the person who started the thread. You are in a different category. Contributory. So because you paid tax, Prsi etc you are entitled to pensions from each country you worked. One is not offset by the other. But you do have to declare them to revenue. Have a chat with citizens advice or look at their website.


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## Bronte (31 Jan 2021)

johnny2shoes said:


> Not sure if this question can be asked on this thread but here goes anyway.
> 
> Does receipt of a small UK pension and fuel allowance by the husband  qualify an elderly couple for a UK medical card which can be used in this republic if their income here is more than the qualifying limit ?


Never heard of this. But if you’re living in Ireland then depending on your income you might be entitled to an Irish medical card.m


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## Black Sheep (31 Jan 2021)

As the OP has been on an Irish Pension for many years I suspect he is over 70 and therefore he would be entitled to an Irish medical card.

A UK medical card is available to Irish people (living in Ireland) regardless of income to those who have *no* income subject to PRSI in Ireland.


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## Bronte (31 Jan 2021)

Forgive my ignorance but how does a U.K. medical card work in Ireland?


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## Black Sheep (31 Jan 2021)

It is actually an Irish Medical card obtained under EU regulations to pensioners who have worked in the UK and therefore have a UK pension. The application is very straight forward for those who qualify.  
 Irish med. card application form.


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## Bronte (31 Jan 2021)

Now I get it.  Does Brexit affect this I wonder.  (not for those who already have it one presumes).


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## johnny2shoes (26 Feb 2021)

Thank to you both and please accept  apologies for my late gratitude.
It appears from what you say Black Sheep that the "retired" elderly couple in my question, do indeed qualify for an Irish Medical card regardless of income from two State Pensions ( Teacher and Garda).    They are in receipt of a tiny UK pension from his employment there way back in the 50s which seems to meet the qualifying criteria?
I doubt ( Bronte) if Brexit can inhibit this 'right' unless Borris goes on a solo run.   He's well capable.
Thanks again for your answers.


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## Bronte (27 Feb 2021)

Johnny you should look at the thread on buying rights to U.K. state pensions.


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