# Mother died any grants to help with funeral costs etc.



## question1 (22 Jun 2011)

Hi my mother recently died.  She was in a nursing home and was under the Fair Deal scheme but because she was only in the nursing home 3 months the Fair Deal has been cancelled.  We now have to pay the cost of the nursing home which will be around €15K as well as her funeral costs.
She has some savings that will cover some costs but not it all.  She did not have life insurance, not sure why this was.  She did have it throughout her life but they wouldn't insure her after a certain age.  She was 74.

Can anyone tell me if she is entitled to claim anything from the state? Or if there are any grants out there than can help?

thanks


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## truthseeker (22 Jun 2011)

Have a look [broken link removed] - best of luck


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## robbie00 (22 Jun 2011)

Hi,

Not sure what your mothers circumstances were but did she own her own home as this would form part of the estate. Dont worry to much about the bills etc at this stage as they do not rush you into making payments in regards to these. 

You would need to check all of her assests to see how much her estate is worth and then see how much is owed out to the nursing home and then the funeral home. 

You can also contact your social welfare office to cancel any pensions to your late mother and also in regards to what grants you are entitled to in relation to her passing.


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## question1 (22 Jun 2011)

Hi, thanks for the reply.  my mother was buying her own house and my brother has been living in it all his life.  so the house can't be sold.

i see on the Med1 form there is a section for nursing homes, do you know if she can cliam on the Med1 form also?


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## sam h (22 Jun 2011)

Sorry to hear of your loss.

Speak to your funeral director as they will be very familiar with all the grants that are available & should have a good idea of what ones you will be entitled to.

HTH


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## kennyb3 (22 Jun 2011)

question1 said:


> Hi, thanks for the reply. my mother was buying her own house and my brother has been living in it all his life. so the house can't be sold.
> 
> i see on the Med1 form there is a section for nursing homes, do you know if she can cliam on the Med1 form also?


 
Sorry for your loss. Whoever paid the nursing home costs should claim them on the form med1. 

Relief is @ 20% - i.e you get a credit for 20% of the amount paid.


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## Nige (22 Jun 2011)

Nursing home fees qualify for tax relief at the person's marginal rate of tax (this is an exception, other medical fees are only relieved at 20%).

However, are you actually liable for these fees? Unless there was an agreement with the nursing home that the children would pay the fees, this is an expense of your mother's estate.


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## kennyb3 (22 Jun 2011)

Sorry yes brain fart - nursing home costs are at marginal rate


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## Threadser (22 Jun 2011)

Sympathies on the death of your Mother. Relief on nursing home fees is now only available at the standard rate. This changed when the Fair Deal scheme came in. I don't understand why the Fair Deal was cancelled because she was only in the home for a few months. I don't remember reading anything about this in the terms and conditions of the scheme.


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## question1 (22 Jun 2011)

Hi,thanks for replies. I'll explain bit further.
My mother is buying her house from the council and my brother has been living there all his life, 36 years  She has been out of her home for last 9 months due to illness, she was in the hospital until we could get her into the nursing home. we got her into the nursing home under the fair deal scheme. This scheme takes 5% of the house value for the first year in a nursing home and this increase the longer her stay. Normally the payment is paid if she dies and the house is sold.  The Fair Deal get back nursing home fees and also their % fee in relation to lenght of stay in nursing home. They know my brother is in the house so i think the deal was when he dies they will get their money. However because my mother was only there for 3 months we decided to cancel the fair deal and pay nursing home directly. Fair deal haven't paid up all anyways as of yet for her full stay. The nursing home costs €172 a day. So it amounts to nearly €18K. So we are looking to see what grants we can get to assist us paying the fees. Her estate, i.e. her home, will not be sold as it is my brothers home and he will have no where to go plus he has being paying mortgage for last 9 months or so.


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## Threadser (22 Jun 2011)

It is probably too late to advise you of this but I think you may have been a bit hasty to cancel the fair deal scheme. I am familiar with the scheme as my Mam has been in a nursing home for 3 years now. The maximum you would have had to pay under the scheme would have been 80% of her income (if this was the state pension then approx 180 a week plus the 5% of the value of the house spread out over 52 weeks. If your house was worth say €150,000 then this would work out at about 130 a week. These are approx figures but you would only owe the nursing home €310 a week (estimate!) rather than €172 day.Had your Mum been accepted on the scheme and if so who advised you to cancel this deal as I think you may have been badly advised?  You shouldn't have to pay up in full for these fees.


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## Complainer (22 Jun 2011)

question1 said:


> we got her into the nursing home under the fair deal scheme. This scheme takes 5% of the house value for the first year in a nursing home and this increase the longer her stay. Normally the payment is paid if she dies and the house is sold.  The Fair Deal get back nursing home fees and also their % fee in relation to lenght of stay in nursing home. They know my brother is in the house so i think the deal was when he dies they will get their money.


Something strange here - if she didn't actually own the house at the time, how could she have an agreement to pay them a & of the value later?


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## Threadser (22 Jun 2011)

Complainer said:


> Something strange here - if she didn't actually own the house at the time, how could she have an agreement to pay them a & of the value later?



That's true. If she didn't own the house outright and also because her son was still living there she may have had no liability to pay anything other than 80% of her income for her care. This would mean that even less would be owed to the nursing home. I would certainly question this before I would pay up in full.


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## question1 (22 Jun 2011)

Hi, thanks for your posts.  my mother was paying 80% of her state pension per month and this amount is deducted from the amount owed to the nursing home per month and the Fair Deal pay the remainder.  This amount paid by Fair Deal still has to be paid when the person dies.  Then there is the 5% fee they charge for paying this money for you becuase you don't have it at the moment. 
so we still have to pay the fees for the nursing home to either the nursing home or Fair Deal but with Fair deal we would have to pay another 5% charged by them for them paying the remainder of the money for us monthy while she was alive.

so say 5% of house is 7500, at end of Fair Deal we would have to pay:

7500+(what ever the monies owed paid by Fair Deal towards nursing home fees)

where now we would just pay 
the monies owed to nursing home - the 80% of her pension she paid monthly to them.

does this sound correct??


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## Threadser (22 Jun 2011)

To be honest it doesn't sound correct.Firstly it still isn't clear if you mother would owe that 5% per year as she doesn't seem to have owned her own house. If she does owe it, the fact that sadly she only lived for 3 months in a nursing home then she would only owe 1.25%  of the value of the house for the short length of time she was there. I suggest that you ring the nursing home support office and get proper advice on this matter. Definitely don't pay up in full to the nursing home until you have established clearly what part of their fee your mother is actually liable for.


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## question1 (22 Jun 2011)

my mother was buying her house and i presume that the mortgage should be paid off when she dies, this is another question I have to ask as the council says it is not and my brother can continue paying - even though house is in my mother and fathers name (both deceased), so in Fair Deal eyes she would own her house? They knew my brother is living there and I don't think legally he would be asked to leave as he has lived there all his life.
Basically we don't want to go down the route of selling the house as my brother would have no where to go as he is on the sick on the dole and he has lived there for 36 years and it wouldn't be right.

thanks for all your help. i will ring nursing home support office.  I am the only one working and the other siblings are on the dole.


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## Threadser (22 Jun 2011)

I hope you get it sorted. It must be a very stressful time for you.


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## Complainer (23 Jun 2011)

question1 said:


> my mother was buying her house and i presume that the mortgage should be paid off when she dies, this is another question I have to ask as the council says it is not and my brother can continue paying - even though house is in my mother and fathers name (both deceased), so in Fair Deal eyes she would own her house? They knew my brother is living there and I don't think legally he would be asked to leave as he has lived there all his life.


Sorry for your loss, but I'm still confused about this. Had she actually bought the house or not at the time that she died? If she hadn't bought the house, there is no mortgage to be paid off.

The question of whether your brother can stay in the house is a question for the council's social housing dept.


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## Bronte (23 Jun 2011)

You'll have to be clearer on the exact situation.  Did your mother actually own the house.  There was a mortgage on it.  In whose name is that mortgage and with who is the mortgage.  Was there life insurance.  Do you know what rights your brother has.  He may have been paying the mortgage but one could equally say he was paying rent to your mother.  

Not familiar with the fair deal scheme but it seems this has been cancelled.  Who decided that?  And who decided to pay the nursing home directly, I'm asking this as I cannot understand if all your sibling are on the dole how they plan to pay the nursing home.  Who has in writing agreed to pay the nursing home. Basically is it the debt of her children or your mother's estate? 

I know it's a difficult time but if you give more detais you will get better answers.


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## question1 (23 Jun 2011)

Hi,

My mother and father were buying a council house i.e. they had a mortgage from the council.  my father died a long time ago and my mother continued to pay the mortgage.  The mortgage was still being paid until she died.  My brother has been paying it for last 10 month while she has been sick in hospital/nursing home.

Does paying a mortgage mean you "own" a house or does the mortgage have to be paid off in full to be declared as "owning" a house?  I am paying a mortgage off my house like many others so does this means we do not own our house?  Technically does a mortgage have to be paid off in order to own your home?

The Fair Deal scheme pay the excess of 80% of state pension per month(as my mother was paying this) to the nursing home using your assets as guarantee so when you die they take the monies from the assets and also a % fee pro-rata, based on the length of stay in the nursing home.  
We were advised to cancel the Fair Deal scheme as my mother had only been in nursing home 3 months


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## Padraigb (23 Jun 2011)

Your mother owned the house, but the council have a claim on it for that part of the mortgage that has not been repaid.

When she died, there seem to have been significant debts and costs: the unpaid portion of the mortgage; the nursing home costs; and the funeral expenses.

The assets available to meet those costs seem to be a relatively small amount of savings, and the house.

Things need to be tidied up: 
1. Money has to be found to pay the nursing home bill, and I don't think there is any scheme under which a claim can be made: the Fair Deal scheme is the government support, and repayment is part of the deal.
2. You can not simply allow your uncle occupy the house and pay the mortgage. Things have to be regularised. If she did not make a will, the house is in effect the property of all her children, and that has to be sorted out. Do the family wish to hand their interest over to your uncle? That involves legal work, and it's not a DIY job. Then the question arises: if he gets the house, do the family want him to accept responsibility for the debts? That looks to me like the agenda for a family conference. The council might agree to the mortgage being transferred to him, but somebody needs to make contact with them to discuss things.


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## question1 (23 Jun 2011)

Hi, I rang the Fair Deal Scheme and got my answer.  

Threadser is correct in his understanding of the scheme:
"The maximum you would have had to pay under the scheme would have been 80% of her income (if this was the state pension then approx. 180 a week plus the 5% of the value of the house spread out over 52 weeks. If your house was worth say €150,000 then this would work out at about 130 a week."  One note on this is that there is an amount of €32K, or so, which is deducted from the house price before the % is worked out.  This is because a person is exempt from being taxed on the first €32K of their savings.  So based on house being valued €150K the amount that the 5% is applied to is €113K approx.

My mother was paying the 80% a week of her Pension but the amount owed based on the value of her home had been deferred until after she died as we could not afford it at the time.  This is the amount owed and to the Tax man. The Fair Deal scheme have/will pay the remainder to the nursing home.

My sister was correct to cancel the Fair Deal scheme, after my mother died, as this is correct procedure.

So it works out that we owe the Tax man approx. €1400.  So that is a relief for us.


The second point is that my mother didn't have mortgage protection so she still owes €8K on her home.  We are happy for my brother to inherit the houses.  We just need to sort out now with the council if it can be transferred to him along with outstanding mortgage.

Thank you all so much for your help.  It helped me see light at the end of the tunnel.


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## Complainer (23 Jun 2011)

question1 said:


> We just need to sort out now with the council if it can be transferred to him along with outstanding mortgage.


If she bought the house, then the council have no role or interest in what happens to the house. It is now part of her estate. Her mortgage will need to be settled out of her estate.

For just 8k, it is not worth transferring the mortgage. You'll pay more on legal fees than it is worth. Can you or he borrow 8k from anywhere else?


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## babygirl (23 Jun 2011)

Complainer said:


> If she bought the house, then the council have no role or interest in what happens to the house. It is now part of her estate. Her mortgage will need to be settled out of her estate.
> 
> For just 8k, it is not worth transferring the mortgage. You'll pay more on legal fees than it is worth. Can you or he borrow 8k from anywhere else?




when someone buys a council house there is a specific contract stating that the council must be notified when it is being sold and they can block the sale, ive seen it happen 3 times in my estate and to my uncle also

eg. if i buy a council house and fully own it and decide to sell it it must be sold to someone who will live in the house, it cant be sold to someone who already owns a house and plans to rent it out unless i have owned the house for over 25 years. i dont know what part of the country your in but thats the rule for mayo

i know that isnt the situation your in but im just trying to explain that the council has a big say over the house, your brother really needs to ring them and find out what can be done in his case but i know that if the council was renting the house to your mother and they knew her son lived there then he could take over the lease but i dont know if the situation is different since its a council morgage

good luck with it all


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## Complainer (23 Jun 2011)

Thanks for the clarification


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