# Estate maintenance -we have to do it ourselves?



## serotoninsid

After 4 years in a new estate, the builder has informed us that he will no longer finance the grass cutting and that it is now 'our responsibility'.

I remember reading about stuff like this before - so I suppose I'm pretty sure theres nothing we can do about it.  Its highly unlikely that the council will take it on I would imagine.

Having said that, I thought I might ask - just in case anyone has been here before and has any ideas as to any other options might be available to us?


----------



## smiley

This is standard practice. In my estate me formed a committee and money is collected mostly by dd each month and we employ a lawnmower man to cut the grass.

We also get together a few times a year to plant flowers and pull weeds.
Works very well.


----------



## serotoninsid

Hi smiley.  Thanks for the reply.  Our estate is small (35 houses) - more than half of them were buy-to-let's and the rest first time buyers.  I take it there is no obligation for people to participate?
I'd imagine in our case, 50% wont...


----------



## niceoneted

It would depend on how you would approach the landlords or the buy to let houses. 
It is in their best interest to have the estate looking well for when they are re-letting or if they ever went to sell so it's important to stress this to them. As the owners of the houses I feel they have just as much as an obligation to contribute. Most land lords in our estate contribute. We have 52 houses in our estate.


----------



## jimbo123

Has the estate been taken over yet by the Council?  If not and I am open to correction I was under the impression that the builder had to maintain the estate.  sorry if this is incorrect but someone informed me that this was the case.


----------



## serotoninsid

Jimbo123 said:
			
		

> Has the estate been taken over yet by the Council? If not and I am open to correction I was under the impression that the builder had to maintain the estate. sorry if this is incorrect but someone informed me that this was the case.


Well, I was thinking the same thing (can anyone confirm for sure). Its not been taken over by the council (mayo co.co.) and I doubt it will be in the foreseeable. The situation was explained briefly to me by a neighbour and from what I understood the council would have to pay him a premium (or is it the other way around before it was taken over....??.....sorry a bit hazy on this as I had not heard of it before ..).
However, even if this is the case - that its the builders reponsibility - he says he 'has no money'. Is it possible to enforce this? I'm sure others have come across similar situations?


----------



## roker

Our street of 7 semi's was recently taken over by the council but we still each pay in to a fund to have the grass cut.


----------



## Fiskar

jimbo123 said:


> Has the estate been taken over yet by the Council? If not and I am open to correction I was under the impression that the builder had to maintain the estate. sorry if this is incorrect but someone informed me that this was the case.


 
you are indeed correct!

The builder is responsible for the upkeep and maintenance of open spaces until such time as he asks the council to take the estate into charge.

We kept our developer maintaining the open spaces as he would not furnish a letter to allow us to plant shrubs on the open spaces. He had later plans for more houses on these spaces during the time of "Greed" but we sucessfully won our case (3 times).
Eventually he had no option but to start the process to have the council take the estate into charge.

Factually, the responsibility for maintaining the open spaces should be indicated within the "grant of permission".

If not, have the council confirm he has requested the estate be taken into charge (probably not) or have him furnish a letter to that effect or to declare that the residents can have the legal title of ownership until such time the council take it over (he probably will not do this).

If both these avenues fail, call the planning enforcement officer and tell him that the developer has declared he will not maintain the space, quote chapter and verse from the "grant of permission" and threaten councillor intervention if this does not work.

Trust me this works, no one can afford grass cutting fees at the moment and it is a pain to collect from residents unless you have ownership of the spaces. Then you can apply for the amenity grant to assist but thats another story...............and too late if you live in Meath as the final date of application was today!

One of lifes learning tales, sorry if it is too long!


----------



## serotoninsid

Fiskar said:


> you are indeed correct!
> 
> The builder is responsible for the upkeep and maintenance of open spaces until such time as he asks the council to take the estate into charge.


In my case, I don't see much opportunity for the developer to build on the open space thats left. Is there any other reason why they would not have tried to hand over?


Fiskar said:


> Factually, the responsibility for maintaining the open spaces should be indicated within the "grant of permission".


I just checked the planning documents on the council website and whilst initial landscaping is specified, theres no mention at all of maintainance?



Fiskar said:


> If both these avenues fail, call the planning enforcement officer and tell him that the developer has declared he will not maintain the space, quote chapter and verse from the "grant of permission" and threaten councillor intervention if this does not work.


Maybe I will contact the Planing Enforcement Officer anyways for starters and see what he/she has to say on the matter.
The other thing is even if the develop is required to continue to maintain, will this be enforceable if he is claiming his company is in the red?


Fiskar said:


> Trust me this works, no one can afford grass cutting fees at the moment and it is a pain to collect from residents unless you have ownership of the spaces.


Yes, your right. Collection is definitely going to be a problem.


Fiskar said:


> Then you can apply for the amenity grant to assist but thats another story


. Not aware of this grant. Do you have any more info on it? How much is it worth?


----------



## Fiskar

The amenity grant for our estate <80 houses was worth €500 last year and we are looking for the same this year. Basically the council will give your estate the larger grant if you make it clear that you will maintain the open spaces with a contractor. But you need clarification of ownership of these spaces or else you are doing the developers work.

here is an extract from the planning regulations on estate finishing and taking into charge of developments.

The Planning and Development Act 2000 provides that where a housing development has been completed in accordance with the conditions of a planning permission and to the satisfaction of the local authority, the local authority must, if requested by the person carrying out the development or by a majority of the residents, take the estate in charge. Where the development has not been completed to the satisfaction of the local authority and no enforcement proceedings have been taken against the developer within seven years of the expiration of the planning permission, the estate shall be taken in charge if so requested by the majority of the residents.

I also attach this link which may help

http://www.environ.ie/en/DevelopmentandHousing/PlanningDevelopment/Planning/PlanningGuidance/

look at the guidance called Taking in Charge of Residential Developments Circular Letter PD 1/08 

The council view will be that the developer continue to maintain the estate unless the process of taking into charge is initiated (by the developer) If he has not started this , will not give you a letter top indicate his transfer of the open spaces YOU are entitled to request the planning enforcement authority to request the developer continue to "maintain" the open space/s


----------



## serotoninsid

Thanks for that Fiskar - I have mailed the Planning Enforcement Officer ref. whether the builder has applied for estate to be taken in charge and whether its a condition of planning that he has to maintain open spaces - so just waiting to hear back before I do anything else...


----------



## RMCF

For the last 2 years I was the guy who collected the grass cutting money in our estate of 38 houses. 

I tried to get some council help wrt dodgy pavements being broken/not finished and street lighting but the council have no interest. They said that the developer is responsible. He has gone bust a couple of years ago!!

Anyway, it is a bit of hassle to collect money as it usually takes a lot of trips around all the houses. People haven't the sense to see that its easier for them to come to me with their money rather than me have to troop round 38 houses about 4 or 5 times each summer. Anyway, have now washed my hands of it - some other mug's turn to do it.

It really is worthwhile though. Nothing worse than an ill-kept street. Most people do pay. We usually have about 8 or 10 houses that don't pay up. But there are people like this everywhere. And at the end of the day its a voluntary donation. If they don't want to pay its up to them.

I'm guessing it will be near on impossible to get local councils to accept any responsibility for any private estates over the next few years, due to cuts in their funding.


----------



## serotoninsid

2 months have passed and aside from the initial letter from the CoCo planning dept confirming they would investigate and a one lined letter confirming receipt of my mail 1 month ago (looking for an update), I have heard nothing from them.  How long should this normally take?
In the meantime, we have now been told that we will have to pay for street lighting shortly also.....


----------



## ajapale

Ive moved this question from Homes and Gardens to Management  companies 
which is where all aspects of management of shared areas is discussed.


----------



## shesells

We have a similar situation at the moment...our development is a series of clusters around a link road. Each cluster has it's own MC. Our cluster is at the end of a spur off the the link road. Recently our MC has been asked to contribute to the cost of grass cutting on the link road. 

I have huge issues with this, the road is 250m from the entrance to our cluster, and is currently owned by the developer who says he's not paying any more. The council are due to take the road in charge but won't pay for grass cutting. I don't understand how the developer can opt out of maintenance for as long as he retains ownership. If he does then there's at least a tiny chance the council will continue to maintain it. If all the clusters pay now, there's zero chance of the council maintaining it? 

On street lighting OP - do you not already pay for that? We have done from day 1?


----------



## serotoninsid

shesells said:


> On street lighting OP - do you not already pay for that? We have done from day 1?


No - have been here for 4 years and I actually thought it was the council that was doing the grass cutting and paying for the lighting!
To make matters worse, we have not had any sort of management company (in fact, we still don't - we just have a 'residents committee' setup in reaction to the withdrawal of these services) setup from day 1 - which means that we don't have any mechanism to make householders contribute.  Only one third of the houses are owner occupied - the rest are rental.


----------



## Vanilla

As far as I'm aware each council has its own protocol ( should be available on their website) about taking estates in charge.


There is a difference between 'historic' estates and others. Historic estates are ones where the council cannot take enforcement action against the developer due to the passage of time - usually 12 years from the date of the grant of planning. In these estates if a majority of residents/owner-occupiers make a request to the council they have to initiate proceedings under the Roads act to take the estate in charge.

Check your own councils protocol and you should see time limits that they are supposed to adhere to. No harm in trying anyway.


----------



## serotoninsid

Just to update..
I have heard back from the Council.  They have sent on a letter to the developer to say that he is in breach of planning relating to the development.  I just wonder is that it - or is there any other loophole? ie. can the developer ignore this without the council pursuing him and enforcing planning law?  Can he claim lack of funds ie. what would happen if the development co. was put into liquidation?
Thanks in advance to anyone who has any futher insight into this type of scenario..


----------



## PetrolHead

Hi all

In same situation in Co. Cork (I started another thread by mistake ( http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=138847 ) as I missed this one when searching). 

I've just looked over the original planning permission for the development.

*Condition 10 - The developer shall be responsible for the maintenance of all roads, footpaths, open spaces, and other services until taken in charge by the council at its discretion.

How is this enforceable?


----------



## Fiskar

serotoninsid said:


> 2 months have passed and aside from the initial letter from the CoCo planning dept confirming they would investigate and a one lined letter confirming receipt of my mail 1 month ago (looking for an update), I have heard nothing from them. How long should this normally take?
> In the meantime, we have now been told that we will have to pay for street lighting shortly also.....


 
At this stage get a councillor involved, you need answers and these people usually have them


----------



## serotoninsid

PetrolHead said:


> How is this enforceable?


This is my query too.  Different CoCo in my case but they sent on a copy of the letter sent to the developer.  They suggest that if they inspect the estate and find that developer is in breach of the planning conditions, then they will follow up with an enforcement notice.  Again the letter states that non-compliance could lead to fines of €12k/imprisonment. 

However, I'm just wondering if there are extenuating circumstances that the developer can use to renege on its responsibilities??
ie. if they put the ltd co. that was setup for the development into liquidation, etc?  Is a bond usually involved in all of these cases? ie. what i mean is must a developer normally leave a capital sum with the CoCo in case of scenarios like this arising?


----------



## Fiskar

PetrolHead said:


> Hi all
> 
> In same situation in Co. Cork (I started another thread by mistake ( http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=138847 ) as I missed this one when searching).
> 
> I've just looked over the original planning permission for the development.
> 
> *Condition 10 - The developer shall be responsible for the maintenance of all roads, footpaths, open spaces, and other services until taken in charge by the council at its discretion.
> 
> How is this enforceable?


 
Usually you write to the developer (copy the enforcement section and contact in the council and one or two councillors) requesting he maintain the open spaces. Call the council, speak with the enforcement officer and indicate that the a request has been made to the developer with regard to maintaince in compliance with condition 10 of the "grant of permission". Once they know this they usually contact the developer by phone to find out what the delay is.


----------



## serotoninsid

We have let this slide for the past 6 months as we had already made arrangements to get the grass-cutting done ourselves anyways.  In the meantime, the developer said he would no longer be covering the lighting bill (although someone must be paying it - as they were not switched off through the Winter).
We are going to a councillor for more info.

However, I just wondered if it is the norm for Planning Dept.'s to take a bond from the developer - and if so, would this be likely to be a substantial amount?  We assume that (like so many others - the actual company that was setup as the developer - is in the red - so I'd imagine the enforcement process would probably achieve nothing?).  Hence the query re. whether the keeping of a bond is normal practice?


----------



## Guns N Roses

Serotoninsid,

If or when the County Council takes in charge your estate they will *never be* responsible for cutting your grass. Most housing estates form Residents Committee's who collect money from residents to pay to have the grass cut.

In relation to your public lighting, most County Council's will take in charge the Public Lighting in advance of the rest of the services assuming the lighting is complete and in good order (ie. they will maintain the poles, lamps & pay the electricity supply bill). As you have stated that your estate does not have a management company, your developer cannot get you to pay for your public lighting. People who pay for their own public lighting generally have a management company or live in a private estate.

Whether a bond has been taken from the developer should be in the Planning file which is viewable by members of the Public in your local County Council Planning Office.

You said in a previous post that the Planning Enforcement Officer sent a letter to the developer stating that they were in breach of the Planning Permission. This sounds like that there is an issue with the estate that the Local Authority is not happy with. They will not take in charge your estate until this problem and any other problem is addressed. This could be something like damaged footpaths, the developer has not supplied a CCTV survey of the sewerage system or the road surface has not been completed.


----------



## serotoninsid

Guns N Roses said:


> Whether a bond has been taken from the developer should be in the Planning file which is viewable by members of the Public in your local County Council Planning Office.


Ok...thanks.  I will check this out.



Guns N Roses said:


> You said in a previous post that the Planning Enforcement Officer sent a letter to the developer stating that they were in breach of the Planning Permission.


This was on the basis of the information I had passed along to them. ie. the developer had informed us he was no longer prepared to maintain openspaces (eg. grasscutting). 
Here's the thing.  I guess the developer is not in a position to make the estate ready to be taken in charge (as like the rest of them, they're deep in the red).
What does this mean in relation to his responsibilities in the event that he isn't putting the estate forward to be taken in charge?
We seem to be caught in between stools....


----------



## Guns N Roses

Try to use Google to find your Local Authorties "Taking in Charge of Housing Developments Policy". 

If you can't find it, try contacting them directly. 

It will contain all you need to know about the process.


----------



## serotoninsid

It's taken two years - but council have now seized the bond (€90k) and their estimate for completion is 180K.  Can't understand how they are coming up with that figure.  Can we insist on a breakdown of that estimate?  Is there any possibility that residents can take direct control over such works?  Needless to say, we feel we can get better value than the council!


----------



## Guns N Roses

serotoninsid said:


> It's taken two years - but council have now seized the bond (€90k) and their estimate for completion is 180K. Can't understand how they are coming up with that figure.


 
Sounds like there is a lot more wrong with the estate than meets the eye.

Considering the amount of the estimated cost of completion, I would hazzard a guess there is either a problem with the sewer network or the water network. It have been my experience that it usually costs a lot more to rectify a construction problem than it would have done to do it right in the first place.




serotoninsid said:


> Is there any possibility that residents can take direct control over such works? Needless to say, we feel we can get better value than the council!


 
Why would you want to take direct control?


----------



## serotoninsid

Guns N Roses said:


> Sounds like there is a lot more wrong with the estate than meets the eye.



Well, we simply don't know!  We have been drip fed information - and begrudgingly so - over the past 2 years.  We are currently waiting on clarification on specifically what is covered by their bill of €180K.



Guns N Roses said:


> Why would you want to take direct control?



Call me a cynic - but I don't trust a public authority in Ireland to deliver value for money.  Direct control would be more of a headache - but I could see how so much could be achieved with the 80K bond.


----------



## lantus

The local coco's are small countrys run by their nown leaders.

Our estate is also in the throws of being taken in charge! Our bond should of been cash (over half a million!) but the council at some point accepted a now worthless paper bond and there dont appear to be any consequences. i.e. they get away with it.

The list of works to be done we have been pushing for with the help of local councillors. In reponse the council have marked all documentation as highly confidential and have advised us that not even a freedom of information act request will get it to the light of day.

Its a local cartel, not a local government.

The council will be making all kinds of deals with the builder behind closed doors. Its how they do business. They will manipulate the engineers reports to reduce costs and even IF as in our case there is no money they can just take it in charge and do NO work whatsoever and legally they are in the clear. It can as far as I can see never be their fault.

Keep pushing though and dont let go. We can't let them get away with it.


----------



## Guns N Roses

lantus said:


> The list of works to be done we have been pushing for with the help of local councillors. In reponse the council have marked all documentation as highly confidential and have advised us that not even a freedom of information act request will get it to the light of day.


 If they are not releasing information under FOI, then it is either commercially sensitive or they are legal issues preventing them from doing so.




lantus said:


> The council will be making all kinds of deals with the builder behind closed doors. Its how they do business. They will manipulate the engineers reports to reduce costs and even IF as in our case there is no money they can just take it in charge and do NO work whatsoever and legally they are in the clear. It can as far as I can see never be their fault.


 They will not take an estate in charge unless it has been finished properly. Once they do so, they are obilged to maintain the services in the estate. Considering that most developers are broke, LA's will reluctantly have to come to some arrangement to recover as much money as possible to finish estates. Otherwise it will come out of their own budget which is funded by tax payers.




lantus said:


> Keep pushing though and dont let go. We can't let them get away with it.


I assume you are refering to builders & developers. Your Local Authority didn't create this mess. They unfortunately have to clean it up.


----------

