# Local Needs:Tell me why, I can not buy a site and build a house where I want to?



## jprender (6 Jul 2005)

Can anybody tell me why, I can not buy a site and build a house where I want to?

 My wife and I want to move to a town close to where we work, and we wish to purchase a site and build our own house.  The problem is that every site for sale has this "local needs" tag attached.

Is there any way that we can get around this ?

Is this to maintain the certain level of in-breeding that exists in small rural Irish towns ? !!!!

Thanks in advance,

J


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## SarahMc (6 Jul 2005)

*Re: Local Needs ???*

No, its to ensure the separation of "pure-breds" from "in-breds".  Why would you want to live in a small rural town if you have such contempt for its inhabitants?


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## Carpenter (6 Jul 2005)

*Re: Local Needs ???*

It's also designed to stop the urban sprawl/ ribbon development which inevitably results when some people decide " I want to live in a 4 bed with walk in wardrobes, his and her ensuite, 3 reception rooms, family room with separate den, utility with separate laundry room f*** off mansion" instead of the 3 bed semi that everyone else lives in.  If everyone thought this way there'd be no countryside, just a rash of one -off housing, badly served by public amenities or utilities, probably polluting the groundwater (we all drink) because of inadequate/ poorly maintained septic tanks.  i know lots of people who live in/ aspire to these "mansions", they are car dependant and can't see the irony of their situation "i want to live in isolation to the town etc but i want all the trappings that come with the town- ie schools, shops, jobs, entertainment etc" and "I expect the local authority to service/ maintain the road/ utilities that serves the 3 bungalows where I live" but "I don't want to contibute to the cost that's entailed".  What a rant eh?  I live in a modest 4 bed detached house in a housing estate, walk to work every day, we have one car my wife and I try to limit car usage where possible and feel far better for it!  Financially it makes a lot of sense, not to mention the environmental impact- I'm not a hippy, I just don't understand this "let's live in a castle on an island" approach to housing in this country, we are obsessed with power showers, solid/ versus laminate flooring etc etc!!!!!


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## Janet (6 Jul 2005)

*Re: Local Needs ???*



			
				jprender said:
			
		

> My wife and I want to move to a town close to where we work, and we wish to purchase a site and build our own house.  The problem is that every site for sale has this "local needs" tag attached.
> 
> 
> J



What does the "local needs" tag mean?


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## tonka (6 Jul 2005)

*Re: Local Needs ???*

that you are not another bleddy commuter.


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## Janet (6 Jul 2005)

*Re: Local Needs ???*

So if you want to buy and build in order to be closer to work does that not mean you fall into the local needs category?


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## tonka (6 Jul 2005)

*Re: Local Needs ???*

It is very mutable, if work were within about 2 miles then absolutely yes . If 20 then no and if 5 then maybe.


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## Scotty (6 Jul 2005)

*Re: Local Needs ???*



			
				tonka said:
			
		

> It is very mutable, if work were within about 2 miles then absolutely yes . If 20 then no and if 5 then maybe.


 
Who gets to decide this? The seller? The council? What if I don't work? What if no-one local _wants_ the site?

There must me a better way to achieve what this _local needs_ system is trying to do than exclude anyone from joining the community who doesn't work within walking distance of that community.

This is the first time I've ever heard of this policy. If anyone has a link to any official information, I'd appreciate it.

J.


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## Purple (6 Jul 2005)

*Re: Local Needs ???*

Hi Carpenter,
That's all a bit harsh isn't it? I live in a 4 bed detached house in a housing estate but for the same money I could get the sort of house you hate so much in the country. The reason I don't is because I'm from Dublin, I work in Dublin and my family and my wife’s family live in Dublin. I would love a big f**k off house with a big garden for my children to play in. What's wrong with people wanting that for their families? 
I do agree that people should but the appropriate environmental infrastructure in place and pay the full cost of local services but your comments in general sound like begrudgery to me.

As to the substantive point raised in this thread. The rule is patently unfair as the same locals can go and buy a house in the local town but the person from the town can't build beside the locals.


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## Carpenter (6 Jul 2005)

*Re: Local Needs ???*

Hi Purple


Don't mean to come across too harsh, but there is a lot of snobiness associated with the "one off house in the countryside".  What we need is vibrant, thriving towns and villages with small, well designed housing schemes where people want to live, contribute to their community etc.  If everyone moves to the countryside (and there isn't enough room for everybody) towns and villages become nothing more than dead, soulless shopping centres where no one lives, just consumes.........What's wrong with living in a housing estate, I don't think this issue arises in other European countries, at least not to this degree...


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## jprender (6 Jul 2005)

*Re: Local Needs ???*

I can understand this protecting the environment thing, but;

if there is site for sale,....... for building a house,....... and this house is going to be built regardless of who builds it,.........then why cant I be the one to build it ? !!!!!!!! 

Does the development of the site ruin the countryside to a greater extent because an "out-of-towner" builds it rather than a local ?  Come on.

This smacks of a nudge and a wink type politics.

By the way, in my opening statement, I was not intending to insult ppl from small towns, only to add a bit of humour (and maybe a bit of controversy to get this discussion going).

Also, where I want to move to is only about 10 miles from my current house, (in a housing estate), but it falls within the realms of a different County Council.

Any more fuel to the fire ?

JP


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## Carpenter (7 Jul 2005)

*Re: Local Needs ???*

Any more fuel to the fire ?

Noooooooooo, I'd better not....


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## Cyrstal (15 Feb 2006)

*Re: Local Needs ???*

Hmmm....Carpenter, I know it was months ago when you posted your reply...BUT, I am from the country, where I was born and bred on a single house detached house site.  I have been living in town houses/housing estate now for 14 years, and own a house on a housing estate....However, if I have kids I want the freedom I had when I was younger, to allow them to play in their own back yard...I don't want a mansion, I just want to be able to come home of an evening, and sit outside without having neighbours left right and centre of me.  Maybe if the housing estates were planned a little better and not placed one on top of each other in the estates it would make a difference.

Until this happens(never will) I have my eye out for site, where I hope to build a normal sized house, and I won't make any apologies for it.


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## racso (15 Feb 2006)

*Re: Local Needs ???*

I was lucky enough to be able to build my own home due to the fact that the wife is originally from the area and we are located about 1 1/2 miles from the village which is very small (there may be in-breeding not sure) but my problem is that they gave planning permission for 68 new houses in the heart of the village itself.

Now when i say there are no amenities i really mean that i.e. the shop owner is also the publician, local estate agent, undertaker and petrol station owner and all out of the one unit!!! If we take on average that each house will have 2 cars and 2 children thats an extra 136 cars in the village that it cant take(except for boss hog who owns the garage) due to roads. 

An extra 136 children that are coming to a village with nothing for them except a GAA club and an already very small overstreached local school. Where is the long term planning in that??? Yes convienient for the postman, telephone and electricity guys...but will be an utter disastor for everybody else including the newbies.


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## dam099 (15 Feb 2006)

*Re: Local Needs ???*



			
				racso said:
			
		

> I was lucky enough to be able to build my own home due to the fact that the wife is originally from the area and we are located about 1 1/2 miles from the village which is very small (there may be in-breeding not sure) but my problem is that they gave planning permission for 68 new houses in the heart of the village itself.
> 
> Now when i say there are no amenities i really mean that i.e. the shop owner is also the publician, local estate agent, undertaker and petrol station owner and all out of the one unit!!! If we take on average that each house will have 2 cars and 2 children thats an extra 136 cars in the village that it cant take(except for boss hog who owns the garage) due to roads.
> 
> An extra 136 children that are coming to a village with nothing for them except a GAA club and an already very small overstreached local school. Where is the long term planning in that??? Yes convienient for the postman, telephone and electricity guys...but will be an utter disastor for everybody else including the newbies.


 
If the 68 houses were spread out at various points within a few miles of the town instead all the same issues of lack of amenities would arise. By concentrating the houses together you create an incentive for new businesses to start up to service this new demand.


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## Henny Penny (15 Feb 2006)

*Re: Local Needs ???*

Hi Rasco
I sympathise with your predicament as the same thing seems to be happening all over the place ... with small villages at the mercy of property developers. Can I ask did you oppose these houses at the planning stage?


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## jdwex (16 Feb 2006)

*Re: Local Needs ???*



			
				Henny Penny said:
			
		

> Hi Rasco
> I sympathise with your predicament as the same thing seems to be happening all over the place ... with small villages at the mercy of property developers. Can I ask did you oppose these houses at the planning stage?



I can't understand why people would object. It is a hell of a lot better than 68 houses scattered around the countryside.


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## Purple (16 Feb 2006)

*Re: Local Needs ???*



			
				Henny Penny said:
			
		

> Hi Rasco
> I sympathise with your predicament as the same thing seems to be happening all over the place ... with small villages at the mercy of property developers. Can I ask did you oppose these houses at the planning stage?


What evidence can you offer to support your claim that "small villages at the mercy of property developers"?
Would is be more accurate to say that some of the development that has taken place in rural areas has been badly planned and executed?
Where would you suggest the people who want to move into these houses live?


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## Bamhan (16 Feb 2006)

*Re: Local Needs ???*

In my opinion a hell of a lot more thought goes into the development of one off housing than into the development of housing estates within our towns and villages.
So many developments are badly designed, badly built, poorly serviced in terms of local amenities.
I am sure given the cahnce and the opportunity many people would choose to design and build a house which was suitable for their own needs and have whatever they though of as key to their lifestyle be that power showers, walk in wardrobes or whatever. Not everyone fits into the one size fits all category of housing which is on offer in many rural towns and villages.
Seems ridiculous to me to build 100's of houses cramped into a small location when there are acres of unused lands close bay which would afford people a decent house and a decent garden and a decent lifestyle.
While in big cities and towns it is necessary for large housing estates with small gardens due to lack of space this is simply not true of rural villages and it is just a way for developers to maximise returns by slapping up shoddy semis or even worse terraced houses simply to achieve maximum return for costs.
Where is the thought and planning in that.
Driving past what was a rural village in North County Cork during the weekend I was apppaled to see the level of development within what was once a lovely rural village.
Rows of terraced houses with wheelie bins outside the front doors as there was no access to the back gardens.
Why not allow these people to build decent sized houses, in the locality rather than lump them all in together simply becasue it is cheaper and easier to service them.
Planning for the future, I think not.


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## Purple (16 Feb 2006)

*Re: Local Needs ???*

I see no problem with development of low-density housing estates near, or on the outskirts or, towns or villages. These should be connected to local services and any cost to upgrade those services should be bourn by the developer (and therefore the purchaser).  They should also be of a size that will not swamp the village or town. This should NOT be decided by the local, the local authority should decide it. 
This will avoid ribbon development and still offer people the opportunity to have a home with a decent garden and space around it. 
If large scale developments are proposed the developer should have to bear the cost of all upgrades to services and infrastructure including building roads to the nearest major route and upgrading that route if necessary.
All of these upgrades should be in place before houses can be sold.

I also strongly support the idea of a windfall tax on rezoned land.


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## Henny Penny (16 Feb 2006)

*Re: Local Needs ???*

IMHO villages should be villages and town should be towns.

The county councils spend a lot of time and effort in drafting development plans for their counties which are not adhered to by planners/developers. 

Small villages such as the one I live in and others around it are being destroyed by inappropriate large scale developments that are driven by tax incentives. 

The only recourse people have is to appeal plans that are clearly in contravention of the county development plans to the mercy of an bord pleanala. 

If a village has a population of a couple of hundred people, adding a housing estate of 68 houses will dramatically change the dynamic of that village in a very short space of time. 

I am not opposed to development but I would like to see appropriate well thought out sustainable development. I would not like to see developers creating an artificial demand for housing for greedy tax dodgers. 

If the planners did their jobs properly many of the applications received for large scale developments would not be granted planning permission in the first place.

This is just my opinion.


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## Purple (16 Feb 2006)

*Re: Local Needs ???*



> Small villages such as the one I live in and others around it are being destroyed by inappropriate large scale developments that are driven by tax incentives.


What tax incentives are available for the building of houses?


> If a village has a population of a couple of hundred people, adding a housing estate of 68 houses will dramatically change the dynamic of that village in a very short space of time.


If every young person who grows up in your village wanted to stay there and buy a house would there be enough houses? Should those people be allowed to move to towns or cities or should the locals there be allowed to abject to all these country folk coming in and changing the community spirit of the area?


> I would not like to see developers creating an artificial demand for housing for greedy tax dodgers.


 I'm sure you mean tax avoiders?
If you had the opportunity to legally pay less tax would you take it?
How can developers create a demand? Surely they can only build to supply the demand that is there.

A town like Naas has been changed utterly over the last few years as a result of development. Areas of Dublin like Ringsend, Dundrum and Phibsborough have also been changed utterly. Why is this Ok and it's not OK for rural areas? If it's not OK then where do all our young families live? Would you prefer it if they emigrated?


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## racso (16 Feb 2006)

My Point is that these developments should not be allowed take place without the necessary amenities being in place FIRST and not being put in afterwards when everybody is giving out and holding public meetings.

 As i said it's rural so no bus service to Carlow town, no bus service to the next village that has a supermarket, pharmacy, take-away!!!! No provisions for creche facilities, no youthclubs etc. With there being being no area to develop in the "main strip" of the village what will inevatibly happen is that shops,pubs etc will be put into this estate *eventually*!!

 Meaning that people in the estate no longer integrate with the village.


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## icantbelieve (16 Feb 2006)

Unfortunately in reality putting in facitilies first isn't an option, there will always be a critical masse of people required to make these facilities viable. The problem is that services provided by the state or state run business take ages to be provided and sometimes don't get provided at all unless there's enough votes in it. To be fair to the private sector they litterally "set up shop" as soon as there's enough people to make it worthwhile. The state should have certain standards set per size of population in an area, if there are X thousand living in an area then they should get a school, garda station, fire station etc and these standards should be compulsory and there should be a commitment to provide them before developers are granted zoning to build. If the state can't afford to provide any of this or isn't prepared to then zoning should not be granted or the developer should have to foot all or part of the cost.


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## Purple (17 Feb 2006)

> Unfortunately in reality putting in facitilies first isn't an option, there will always be a critical masse of people required to make these facilities viable.


 I was referring to Water, ESB, streetlights, Cable TV, train stations, roads, parks etc. Space for shops, pharmacies, pubs etc can be allocated by the planners and will open as the demand grows.
Public infrastructure such as Garda stations, libraries, crèches and schools should be built by the developer at their cost as a condition of their planning permission. All of this should be in place, for all phases of the development, before they are allowed to sell one house or apartment.


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## Henny Penny (17 Feb 2006)

Hi Purple
To answer your question there are section 23 type tax incentives available to home buyers where I live under the rural renewal scheme. The incentive for builders is that homes are more attractive because of the tax relief offered on them. 
My issue is that the tax relief is being abused by people who buy the houses and claim they live in them to get the tax relief and then rent them out on the sly. I have no problem with people buying houses as an investment and getting the appropriate tax relief on them ... but it annoys me when people abuse the system.


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## Purple (17 Feb 2006)

Have you considered reporting them to Revenue?
Or even better why not get in touch with a local paper and see if they will do a bit of digging and do a story. This is the sort of thing the RTE would pick up on.


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## MargeSimpson (17 Feb 2006)

*Re: Local Needs ???*



			
				Carpenter said:
			
		

> I live in a modest 4 bed detached house in a housing estate,



So you didn't opt for the semi-D in the estate or possibly the terraced house? (I am presuming that like most estates it has at least semi-D's and detached houses.)
Preferred the slightly bigger detached house, possibly, or more land surrounding your house?


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## Berlin (17 Feb 2006)

Our new house is 1/2 mile from a smallish village in Leitrim. There have been about 200 new houses built in estates in the last 2 years. In an area which was more than decimated by emigration from the 50s right up to the early 90s, the village was slowly dying. The people moving in are bringing an injection of new blood, new money and new life. Already new shops are opening in the village to service their needs. Most of them are already living and working within a 15 mile radius although some are foreigners. This too I see as a good thing - diversity can only add to the colour of the place. Their children will be the new locals and will, I hope, keep the village thriving into the 22nd century.


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## Swallows (18 Feb 2006)

Yes, and they are built right on the banks of the Shannon which was flooded for nearly a week last year. What will happen when this occurs again, which it surely will. As I pass through Leitrim Town every day I look to see if the house right at the edge of the water is OK, with the water rising it's only a matter of time. I dont know how the developer got planning permission.


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