# Stove to heat a room versus room plus rads



## sunnyside (24 Mar 2013)

Hello all,

We are in the midst of the planning stage of building a house. While discussing heating systems with our builder the other day, he recommended that we use a wood burning type stove to heat the living room but suggested he would not link this to the water nor rads. He felt that by linking to rads etc it would not be as good as using gas. There is natural gas where we are building. 

I was under the impression that you could link to rads relatively straight forwardly, albeit using a competent, experienced plumber.  And by using this system we would save lots of money on gas bills and have hot rads and hot water no probs. 

Am I wrong?

Thanks for the advice


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## huskerdu (24 Mar 2013)

I am not an expert and I am sure you will get more detailed technical responses later, but here is my option.

 I dont know what size your house will be and how many radiators you will have, but if you depend solely on a stove ( wood or multi-fuel),you will have to clean it out and fuel it up every  single time you want to put a radiator on, or heat the water, 365 days of the year, and you cant do that on a timer, you have to do it yourself.

Of course, some people do, but it is a major decision to make.

Its hard to compete with the convenience of gas, and this is the builders option.

I am assuming that you are still in the planning stage. Do you have any expert advice on insulation / air-tightness and the heating needs of the house (other than your builder). Have you talked to the architect ?

You should get a proper assessment of the heating needs of the house and if you want a stove / boiler solution, get an estimate of what size if needs to be and what the fuel needs will be. It might be cheaper than gas, but depending on the size of your house, you will need to buy fuel.


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## sunnyside (24 Mar 2013)

Tks very much for your reply. 

To expand:
2,400 sq. ft house. 2 storey. 4 bed roomed. I main bathroom. 1 ensuite. 

Yes, still at the planning phase. In fact we haven't chosen the builder yet, but have narrowed that down to two. We do have a favourite, one who has done a very similar house in the area to a lovely standard. 

I have an architect friend who has advised but am open to paying for appropriate expert help if necessary. The builders seem quite able to be our architect t if we wish....

Insulation / air tightness has been discussed at great length. It's something we have tried to insist will have the highest levels. The builders seem to get this alright and are happy to say the house will be air tight.   We intend to have a heat recovery system. 

There will be Ufh downstairs only. So rads only upstairs. Most likely 8 / 10 rads. 

Window systems. Being discussed but again they will be appropriately speced with the right u value etc to assist the insulation. 

There will be only 1 north facing window in the entire house. This willbe in the utility room. 
Please ask if any more info is required. 

Tks a mill


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## Famous five (26 Mar 2013)

I have a stove and it's great, I don't need heat 1st thing in the morning as house is still warm from the night before, I'm a cold person and with gas I always needed heat on before I got out of bed. I use mine from 10 in morning till 10 at night and it cost me 20 a week to run, this will heat 8 rads. I have the Stanley Tara. I don't need to use gas at all so now we have esb bill, UPC bill and coal man, but you are more in control with coal as you know when it's running out to slow down usage. I find it a lot cosier than rads and I don't mind cleaning out as its very easy takes seconds, the only thing is if we are out during the day and come home to a cold house, but a electric rad for days like that would be fine till you set fire. I love the stove it was my best buy.


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## itsallwrong (26 Mar 2013)

When you add up what you will buy to fuel the stove, it will not work out a whole lot cheaper than a gas boiler.
The problem with any heating system is the variants of the house.
The whole makeup of the house and it's requirement will determine the pro and con of a stove.
Also bear in mind that a gas boiler is more efficient than a stove.

Q - I was under the impression that you could link to rads relatively straight forwardly.

www.systemlink.ie
I have one in my house.


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## Guns N Roses (27 Mar 2013)

sunnyside said:


> The builders seem quite able to be our architect t if we wish....


 
In most cases the purpose of the Architect is to project manage the build.

Their role is as follows:

- to design the building according to your brief.
- to ensure that the building is constructed in accordance with Building Regulations.
- to seek tenders from a number of Builders to get the best construction costs.
- to provide you will Opinion of Compliance Certs in relation to Building & Planning Regs.

If the builder is also your Architect then you have no guarentee that he's doing the job properly.


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## huskerdu (27 Mar 2013)

My opinion is that if you are building the house and going to live in it for a few decades, its vital to get the heating system right for the entire lifetime of the house.

If I were you, I would do a proper analysis of the choices

1) Gas heating to drive rads and a stove in the sitting room
2) A stove with a back-boiler to heat rads and sitting room
3) A combination of both

For each choice

What is the upfront cost
What is the projected lifespan
What is the maintanance cost
What is the projected annual fuel bill
What are the pros and cons of each system
 i.e. Convenience of gas vs the work involved in the stove

I am not being negative about the stove option, I have an fire which I light each winter and I an planning on changing it to a stove. I am happy to have to buy fuel and clean out the fire/stove and wait for it to heat up the room. 
However, it is a serious decision that you will have to live with for decades and you need to decide what the basis for this decision is and analyse it properly


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## sunnyside (27 Mar 2013)

Tks for all the replies and food for thought. After talking and talking and reading and reading we are now at this stage with regard to hearing system :
NO Ufh. It really doesn't suit our lifestyle. Both myself and wife work and will be out of the house all day. Cost of it and its inflexibility. 
A hear recovery system. As much for the lifestyle as the savings. 
Solar. Free hot water. Hopefully year round with the newer advanced systems. 
Stove. I'm still between a system link system and having the option of letting the stove heat the rads or just a stove to heat the room. 

There is lots of mixed advice on this. I'd appreciate anyone's views on it. 

Tks


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## fear peile (27 Mar 2013)

I have a stanly superstar solid fuel range which heats my house and hot water. similar size house to OP with high investment in insulation during construction stages, range is connected to a systemlink, also have a condenser boiler with 4 zones. I purchased oil today for the first time in seven years. Only use oil during summer when range is closed up. 1000 litres oil in 7 yrs. 
I was reared in the countryside where we went to the bog each summer and I still like to cut my turf and bring my kids to the bog as I  did with my father, costs me approx 3-400 euro each year. 
Would highly recommend dry lining external walls with the normal cavity insulation and high standard insulation in attic and fllors.


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## itsallwrong (28 Mar 2013)

You are building fromn scratch - easy to pipe for a boiler stove.
You are laying out the details of the house so you can have high spec elements where ever you want to spend the money.

As fear peile says - insulation is the key.
Whatever the minimum Building regulation says to use - you should exceed it.

If we have the stove going the day before, the house temp stays at 15 celcius the whole of the next day, depending on door traffic.
Go mad on the stuff. It's cheap to do now while the house is being built. No good retro fitting it in ten years.
Gas prices are only ever going to increase.

I have a setup like fear peile but I have no immersion and the gas boiler on the wall is an expensive ornament. 
I haven't finished even plumbing it. I have no immersion or electric showers.
stove is a Hunter Herald 14 boiler - 12 rads around the house.

If you want heat for water or the house - the fire is lit a couple of hours to heat the cylinder (240Lt triple coil).

I too have hopes for solar down the road when it's a fair price and works better.

Fuel for the house.
Mainly wood. We are up and running here 2.5 years. There are 6 of us.
2 teenagers who see a full cylinder of hot water as a challenge to empty and I have to wee people. 
The mindset of planning the use of hot water is something we all got used to very quickly. We chug along nicely.

I have bought 3 bags of coal in 2.5 years (low on wood and it was just quicker. The gas bill for the cooking (no heating) is €60 for the calendar year.

If you put in a stove and intend burning it to heat a room, then you might as well pipe the heat up to the cylinder. Otherwise it goes up the chimney. 
As you might have read up on the Systemlink, you can use a gas boiler and a stove at the same time if you want quick hot water.
And you can pick what zone to heat - rads or hot water or both. Depends on your zone setup.
If you think a stove can't pull it's weight, I have had the cylinder temp up to 84deg celcius several times here.
You can make tea with the water. Master thermostatic mixer valve keeps it safe.

Sit down with a good plumber (old school back boiler/stove type) and chat to him.

Lots of helpful stuff on these sites.
[broken link removed]
http://www.kingspaninsulation.ie/Literature/Refurb-Guide.aspx
http://www.kingspaninsulation.ie/Literature/Futureproof-Guide.aspx


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## sunnyside (28 Mar 2013)

Great stuff everyone. I'll keep going and keep you updated. I certainly will be going 'all in' on insulation and agree that this is the key. Insulation insulation insulation. 

I have spoken to a few good experienced plumbers who I know and have seen their work over the years. One said use system link but the other said don't connect the stove to the rads!! 

They agreed on everything else. No Ufh , yes to solar, zoning, etc  and it's imperative to insulate very very well


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## Woodsman (15 Apr 2013)

*post from Sunnyside*

Hi
I built 18 years ago and installed umpteen rads (heated by oil) plus underfloor heating. I now never turn them on, even during the serious frosts two winters ago. My two woodburning stoves. A Morso squirrel in the sitting room 25ft by 18ft which will overheat the room unless turned right down and a Nestor Martin 3kw stove in the hallway heats the remainder of the house due to the open design of the hall giving access for heat to upstairs bedrooms etc. I was advised not to try and run rads off the stove and I think this has proved correct. My architect specified serious and expensive insulation and this has really paid off. Worth also noting that the hall stove has a concrete and tile surround and sits on a tile floor with concrete base. These act like storage heaters. The stove will have died down by say 11pm, yet the house is still really warm the following morning due to the retained heat in the concrete mass. Its all pretty economical to run and no doubt due to the excellent insulation. I burn DRY logs only and would advise not having rads off the stove. Modern stoves of a good make are super efficient and only require cleaning out once a week.


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