# Success!  I got my tracker back from ICS



## wednesday (1 Mar 2013)

As the thread title states, I'm coming out of a 5 year fixed term on 29.03.13. I have just received paperwork and they are offering:-

Exisiting Variable LTV Rate PDH            4.55%
2 year fixed (PDH)                             4.99%
3 year fixed (PDH)                             5.19%
5 year fixed (PDH)                             5.59%
10 year fixed (PDH)                           6.49%

I have (I believe) all paperwork pertaining to my mortgage and on the original Mortgage Loan Offer Letter it states the following, under 'Special Conditions' :-

(iv)   a)Subject to part (b) of this condition, the interest rate applicable to the loan is a variable interest rate and may vary upwards or downward. The interest rate shall be no more than 1.3% above the European Central Bank Main Refinancing Operations Minimum Bid Rate ('Repo Rate') for the term of the loan.....
       b)For the first 12 months from the date of draw down of the loan the interest rate as outlined in (a) above shall be discounted by 0.8% and shall be no more than 0.5% above the Repo rate and shall be subject to the terms and conditions outlined in (a) above. At the end of the said 12 month discount period the interest rate applicable shall revert to the rate as outlined in (a) about i.e not more than 1.3% above the Repo rate.

I was on a discounted tracker for 12 months and then locked in for two years at 4.39% (Tracker offered was Variable ECB + 1.25%, total 3.75%)

In 2008 I then locked in for 5 years at 4.99% (Tracker offered was Variable ECB + 1.25%, total 5.25%)

Do the special conditions clauses mean that I can push them to offer me ECB + max 1.3%?


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## wbbs (1 Mar 2013)

I am presuming it does not say what rate the loan will default too, are these just the other options you can go for and maybe the default is a tracker?  What will the rate be if you do nothing?  That is often where they catch people, left alone it defaults to tracker, pick another option and you lose it.


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## wednesday (1 Mar 2013)

My current offer states in bold:- If we do not hear from you by 29.03.2013, your home loan will, in accordance with your loan offer or amended documentation, automatically move to the variable rate of Existing Variable LTV Rate PDH, a current rate of 4.55%.

Just spotted something else though...In a box on the 3rd page it says this:-

SWITCHES TO FIXED RATES
If you avail of a Fixed Rate, our tracker rate commitment to you is deemed to be at an end and the lender's prevailing Standard Variable Rate will apply on expiry of this fixed term. For the avoidance of doubt, we wish to advise you that if you avail of a Fixed Rate, you will lose the ability of a Tracker Rate Mortgage in the future.

Am I wrong in thinking that I have them over a barrel??


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## wbbs (1 Mar 2013)

Right so it's not defaulting to tracker.

Did any of the previous fixed rate amendments you signed have that line about losing the tracker?


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## wednesday (2 Mar 2013)

> Did any of the previous fixed rate amendments you signed have that line about losing the tracker?


Not so far as I can see they are worded exactly the same and tracker was offered as Variable ECB + 1.25% on each one.


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## Knuttell (2 Mar 2013)

You appear to have a very good case.

Hard to believe ICS are still treating the Ombudsman's office as their customer complaints dept,used by those customers who are cute enough to know when a fast one is being pulled,how many are there that just roll over and sign these docs?

Follow the steps I laid down in this thread and start the escalation process to the Ombudsman's office.Your first step is a final response letter,its all in this thread.

Best of luck fella.

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=128549


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## wednesday (3 Mar 2013)

I've read through the thread that you linked Knuttell, am I correct in thinking that the 1st thing to do is ring and ask for my tracker to be reinstated? Then write to them if they refuse over the phone? Then escalate to the ombudsman if/when their response letter comes back?

And money wise what do I do in the meantime? Do I continue to pay the amount that I'm currently paying on my fixed term? Or pay the amount of the variable that will inevitably kick in when lock-in runs out at the end of the month? Or (sorry!!) am I silently agreeing to their terms by paying the variable rate?

Sorry to sound a bit dense but not really sure of the correct way to proceed from here.


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## wednesday (4 Mar 2013)

Update:
Just called ICS and asked why I wasn't offered a tracker, lady went off to look through my terms and came back saying that it stated on the paperwork from my last fix (2008) that some products may not be available when exiting fixed rate. She is sending this to me today. I believe that I have all paperwork and have very carefully read through again and can find no such clause. Lady advised that my next action would be to write in to them seeking a final response from them - if I felt it was warranted and then to take matters further if I still disagreed...seemed like she was just quoting from a script at this point. 

I'll update further when I get the paperwork from them and have had a good look at it.


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## Knuttell (4 Mar 2013)

Send a final response letter to the address listed on the other thread and take it from there.

I have a re read at a standard option form sent out by ICS in late 2008 and it mentions nothing about losing a tracker in the event of selecting a fixed rate,this is very much a standard inclusion now on such letters,its wording leaves you absolutely in no doubt.

Pretty sure I got the same spiel regarding nonavailability of products on exiting fixed rate,they seem do this in order to run interference and put off legitimate claimants following through.

Regarding how you intend to pay once the rate run out,my advice is simple enough,pay the rate they are asking,in the event you win your case all this will be returned to you as the Ombudsman will instruct them to do so.

In the event you lose and have only paid what you feel they are entitled to  then your credit history will be in tatters.

This will likely take you the best part of a year so immediately write in and ask for the final response letter.


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## wednesday (7 Mar 2013)

Just received paperwork from ICS - it is a copy of my original mortgage offer letter and highlighted in the special conditions is :-

"In the event that, or at any time, the Repo rate is is certified by the Society to be unavailable for any reason the interest rate applicable shall be the Society's prevailing Homeloan variable rate."

Does this mean I'm scuppered?


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## oysterman (7 Mar 2013)

wednesday said:


> Just received paperwork from ICS - it is a copy of my original mortgage offer letter and highlighted in the special conditions is :-
> 
> "In the event that, or at any time, the Repo rate is is certified by the Society to be unavailable for any reason the interest rate applicable shall be the Society's prevailing Homeloan variable rate."
> 
> Does this mean I'm scuppered?


Not at all in my view.

The ICS cannot certify as unavailable something that clearly is available; the refi is clearly available because the ecb has today kept that rate at 0.75%.

Does the ICS seriously expect a reasonable person to believe that by highlighting a most unlikely term of exclusion (i.e. that that the ecb might at some stage in the future cease to have/declare a refi) in a contract that they can somehow execute that term?

They are trying it on.

Fight this; then fight some more.


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## wednesday (7 Mar 2013)

> Originally posted by Oysterman: Fight this; then fight some more.


My thoughts EXACTLY  thanks for the confirmation


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## Knuttell (7 Mar 2013)

If they cant blind you with science they will baffle you with BS.

Got so much nonsense dressed in legalese off them I lost track.

Drive on with the request for final response letter,get proof of posting on all correspondence,you are dealing with a bank/bank workers,act accordingly.

Keep the letter to the facts,leave all emotion out of it,do not embellish or importantly leave out facts,do it in chronological order,refer to MFA or Mortgage agreement to support your case,quote relevant sections,in particular draw attention to the absence of any clear explanation as to what would happen to the tracker on expiration of the fixed rate.

I really wouldn't bother engaging with them any further past a request for a FRL,leave it to the Ombudsman to represent you.


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## Bronte (8 Mar 2013)

wednesday said:


> Exisiting Variable LTV Rate PDH 4.55%
> 2 year fixed (PDH) 4.99%
> 
> the interest rate applicable to the loan is a variable interest rate and may vary upwards or downward. The interest rate shall be no more than 1.3% above the European Central Bank Main Refinancing Operations Minimum Bid Rate ('Repo Rate') for the term of the loan?


 
What is PDH?  Is it Principal ?something? Home

Repo Rate - what does repo stand for?


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## wednesday (8 Mar 2013)

PDH - private dwelling house (apparently, I had to ask!)
repo rate - abbreviation of ECB main refinancing Operations minimum bid rate (again apparently!)

Nothing like making things crystal clear is there??


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## oysterman (8 Mar 2013)

wednesday said:


> PDH - private dwelling house (apparently, I had to ask!)
> repo rate - abbreviation of ECB main refinancing Operations minimum bid rate (again apparently!)
> 
> Nothing like making things crystal clear is there??


I think it's *principal* dwelling house....to distinguish from buy-to-let rates.

Open to correction as ever.


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## wednesday (24 Apr 2013)

Update: With a lot of help and advice from another member on AAM, my tracker was restored today  

No mention of any refund for overpayment BUT unlike a lot of other people I only overpaid for one month, I'm pushing for it back, we'll see.

Anyways my advice to ANYONE who believes that they should be on tracker is to keep pushing.


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## Karolina77 (24 Apr 2013)

Wow that's amazing.  Delighted for you!  Really great to hear someone getting a bit of justice with our banks.....

We fixed with UB in late 2006 - came off rate in late 2008 and were never offered back our tracker rate. Went onto SVR at that time for a year and then fixed again for 3 years.  We've been arguing with the bank since Feb and got an offer back of the fixed rate back for that 1 year period BUT because we signed the form in late 2009 saying it would revert to SVR after fixed rate that they don't feel there was any error on the banks part!  Our terms and conditions and the Fixed Rate Form we signed in 2006 are all clear 'ecb rate for lifetime of mortgage' and after fixed rate 'would revert to home loan rate' - home loan rate is mentionned several times in our original loan agreement and only rate specified is 0.85% - it's just crazy we are being put to such lengths to get this sorted and every month it costs us a fortune.  I honestly feel sick about it all today!


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## wednesday (24 Apr 2013)

Sounds like you have a good case for the ombudsman Karolina. From the papers and posts on here A LOT of people weren't offered tracker after coming out of fixed and didn't pursue at the time as they were told by their mortgage provider the old line 'trackers are no longer available'. 

Of course you fixed in again, at the time you would have been a fool not to as interest rates were going crazy. Your argument should be that you would have never fixed if ECB + 0.85% was on the table - especially if you had of been aware that it was never going to be offered again.


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## Father ted (28 Apr 2013)

We are in the same situation with ICS too Wednesday.we went onto a fixed for ; yrs back in 2007 and at the end of the  4 yrs ICS would not allow us return to our Tracker mortgage ,so anyhow we are now with the hands of the Ombudsman to fight our case and hopefully resolve it successfully, as you have done so Well done you.


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## Bronte (29 Apr 2013)

wednesday said:


> Update: With a lot of help and advice from another member on AAM, my tracker was restored today
> 
> .


 
This is great news Wednesday.  How did you actually get them to back down?  You don't have to tell us who helped you, just how you did it.


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## wednesday (29 Apr 2013)

I came out of lock-in at the end of March and at the beginning of March was offered a new choice of options, tracker not among them. It stated on the paperwork in NO UNCERTAIN TERMS that signing to accept any of the offers would negate any chance of getting a tracker EVER. I signed nothing and reverted to LTV of 4.55%

So I rang them and asked why I wasn't offered a tracker, I was told that I wasn't entitled to one as the product no longer existed. They sent me paperwork to substantiate their claim, with a section highlighted that waffled on but really said nothing.

On receipt of this I wrote to them asking politely for my tracker to be restored as I had never signed anything that meant I couldn't have it back - as trackers were still available in May 2008 when I last went into lock-in. Three weeks later they replied advising that they still weren't going to offer me one.

On the advice of AAM member I then wrote a long letter to ICS parent company BOI, I laid out the entire story of my mortgage - dates of lock-ins and the interest amounts along with all the signed paperwork relating to same, (a 2 page letter with 6 attachments amounting to about 20 pages!! I'm sure they enjoyed the read!! lol) I sent this by registered post so that I could track it on 11th April and received an acknowledgement by post some 4 days later advising that I allow 25 working days for their response. On 24th April a letter arrived from ICS offering us ECB + 1.3%. 

Saving of almost €200 a month - Happy Days


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## Bronte (30 Apr 2013)

wednesday said:


> On the advice of AAM member I then wrote a long letter to ICS parent company BOI, I laid out the entire story of my mortgage - dates of lock-ins and the interest amounts along with all the signed paperwork relating to same, (a 2 page letter with 6 attachments amounting to about 20 pages!! I'm sure they enjoyed the read!! lol) I sent this by registered post so that I could track it on 11th April and received an acknowledgement by post some 4 days later advising that I allow 25 working days for their response. On 24th April a letter arrived from ICS offering us ECB + 1.3%.


 
Thank you very much for the extra detail and well done the AAM member who so well advised you. 

And well done you Wednesday for fighing your case so well. 

And another case of bankers knowingly trying to 'fool' customers (I'm being polite). Plus ca change. The ICS knew very well from the get go that you were entitled to your tracker. And no central bank/regulator/ombudsman to fight for the little guy in preventing banks carrying on like this. 

Wednesday's post should be added to the key post on 'how to get your trackers back from ICS/BOI


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## wednesday (30 Apr 2013)

Postscript:- I faxed the paperwork to ICS as I wanted to make sure it got there and I wanted an original copy for myself. I called them today to make sure that they got it and they advised that I call on Friday with regard to my refund...I was a little confused as I believed that any refund would only be a couple of months, some €360. The LOVELY lady I was speaking with then told me that the paperwork I signed would backdate my tracker to May 2008. OMG  I am skipping round my kitchen as I type!!


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## oysterman (30 Apr 2013)

That's a sweet result and well deserved for your persistence, wednesday.


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