# Management Company Fees



## Freddie

My management company AGM is coming up. Would people be interested in putting up their annual charge,  size of development, general location. I'd just like to see where my place fits in. Compare some of the costs as they are broken down for other people etc. I'm not sure my place shops around at all and suspect lots of work might be going to "friends" of the management agent company. This will be my 2nd agm do new, to all this.


----------



## elcato

This comes a lot here just like estate agents, taxi drivers, insurance companies. Contrary to what you might think, it is easy enough for you to put yourself forward as a director. Then you instruct the MA and either accept or reject their giving the work to 'friends'. There is no conspiracy here, just check the budget proposals and see if the expense is reasonable. I suspect it's grand but you can do something about it if not at least.


----------



## Freddie

Ok thanks for that. Here is what we are paying


----------



## Freddie

It's just I don't think they aren't bothering to shop around. I will be putting myself forward this year to be a director. But it would be good to go into the agm with knowledge of what other people are paying.  There are 3 blocks in my development with 3 lifts 3 external fob gates. There are 40 apartments in total.


----------



## elcato

Doesn't look too bad.  We have one block of 45 apts, one lift, a small garden and underground car park.


ESB4kLift maintenance900Insurance6kGates (two gates)1k (2k to fix last year)Fire alarm/Emergency lighting totals2kBins4kWindows - gutters1kRepairs and maintenance7k last yearAuditors1.8kMan. Agent10k


----------



## Freddie

The garden is tiny where I am. It was the €12k common area cleaning. Last year we had the carpets replaced in all common areas and the common areas painted. There is 1 man who comes once a week and cleans. If he was getting the €12k I wouldn't feel as bad! Its €1000  a month to basically hoover the new carpets on the stairs and small halls between apartments. He mops the three lifts and that's it. I'll be bringing this up at AGM but maybe I'm not being reasonable.

The electricity cost of 9k seemed high. I asked for the past 12 month bills but the managing agent said the "These are the responsibility of the Directors to review etc. and as such I am not in a position to provide you with a copy of them.  "

Your lift maintenance is €900 is that correct. Ours is €5000 + Lift insurance of €1300 + Lift phone of €1300


----------



## 8till8

Freddie said:


> Lift phone of €1300



You can make big savings by changing away from a fixed line to mobile with these guys;   https://www.fullsignal.ie/

Also enquire what your 'lift insurance' is really for, its usually an engineering inspection policy thats offered by insurance brokers -- again you can make savings by going direct, check these guys out;  http://www.irishliftinspections.ie/


Both electricity bills appear very high...has the lighting been converted to LED?


----------



## Freddie

8till8 said:


> You can make big savings by changing away from a fixed line to mobile with these guys;   https://www.fullsignal.ie/
> 
> Also enquire what your 'lift insurance' is really for, its usually an engineering inspection policy thats offered by insurance brokers -- again you can make savings by going direct, check these guys out;  http://www.irishliftinspections.ie/
> 
> 
> Both electricity bills appear very high...has the lighting been converted to LED?



Thanks for thd


----------



## Freddie

Thanks for the really useful advice there. I questioned the Electricity bill last year but was told the 3 lifts and the 3 gates really added to this cost. Don't know how true this is. It was my 1st AGM as the managing agent shot me down on any questions I had. No we don't have led bulbs. As I said I have asked for bills. I'm presuming I'm entitled to these as I do pay 1/40 of them? 

Do you think the cleaning costs are quite high too? It's basically a 1 man job once a week. As there is  only 1 cleaner and this man does the hoovering of the common areas and washes the floors of the 3 lifts.


----------



## jdwex

Who are the directors? Are they owner occupiers? Are you?


----------



## jdwex

Lifts and EM Gates will certainly use up electricity. I'm in a complex of 200+ apartments, we have just one EM Gate, for the underground  car park


----------



## Freddie

The 2 directors are owner occupiers. 1 guy was just appointed the other guy thinks he owns the development. He's never going to be shifted off I'd say. He's been a director for years and his rotation has already come and gone.  He's also the secretary. Sits in his penthouse watching everything. No I'm not a director. I'm going to put myself forward but the guy who thinks he owns the place wont be on for it as he sees me as a threat to his dominance.


----------



## 8till8

Freddie said:


> Do you think the cleaning costs are quite high too? It's basically a 1 man job once a week. As there is only 1 cleaner and this man does the hoovering of the common areas and washes the floors of the 3 lifts.



It does seem very high but ask if there is a contract or what was the last quote in place for cleaning services.

Asking for bills as a non-director may not be received very well, its not that you aren't entitled to them but the directors/managing agent role is to manage such matters so they may feel threatened,  it sounds like you should become a director and then there can be no holding back information.

Not having changed to LED by now is pretty lazy, the cost benefits are tremendous but maybe they have it planned?


----------



## jdwex

What's budgeted is one thing, what was was spent is another. Do you have a copy of the last annual accounts?


----------



## Freddie

No I dont


----------



## Freddie

I have the budgets for the last few years


----------



## Freddie

8till8 said:


> It does seem very high but ask if there is a contract or what was the last quote in place for cleaning services.
> 
> Asking for bills as a non-director may not be received very well, its not that you aren't entitled to them but the directors/managing agent role is to manage such matters so they may feel threatened,  it sounds like you should become a director and then there can be no holding back information.
> 
> Not having changed to LED by now is pretty lazy, the cost benefits are tremendous but maybe they have it planned?



I want to be a thorn in their sides as I dont think they tender for anything and just go with the status quo. I'd like to have as much info as possible by the AGM so I can show what they are not doing and all this will get witnessed by those there and also minutes. Hopefully I can make a case for becoming director and the guy who thinks he owns the place wont block me some way


----------



## llgon

Are you familiar with your company's rules for election of Directors? This is probably the most important information you'll need for the AGM.  

Have you spoken to other owners about the issues and are they willing to attend the AGM and elect you? If not the other guy will probably have a few friends there who will support him and block you. I would expect at an AGM in a development of this size there will be few neutrals present who haven't made up their mind about your nomination beforehand.


----------



## Blackrock1

Freddie said:


> I want to be a thorn in their sides as I dont think they tender for anything and just go with the status quo. I'd like to have as much info as possible by the AGM so I can show what they are not doing and all this will get witnessed by those there and also minutes. Hopefully I can make a case for becoming director and the guy who thinks he owns the place wont block me some way



If I was you I’d get rid of the persecution complex and try and approach this rationally.
If you become a director your will probably see the scope for making any sort of meaningful decrease in the mgt charge is small


----------



## Freddie

Blackrock1 said:


> If I was you I’d get rid of the persecution complex and try and approach this rationally.
> If you become a director your will probably see the scope for making any sort of meaningful decrease in the mgt charge is small



Yes you are right, I do need to change my attitude, persecution complex as you call it 

I suppose I am just trying to get best value for money. I'm happy to keep the mgmt fee the same but it would be good to see if we could have the same fee but be putting some money into the sinking fund. At the moment this is non existent. I'm probably a bit annoyed/disappointed that this was never funded at all.


----------



## 8till8

You can buy copies of the accounts and company memo & articles (which details the rules for election of directors) from www.cro.ie for €2.50 each.

Then again since you are now a member of the company so the company secretary should give you this info for free upon request.

I agree with Blackrock1, I'd change approach from _persecution complex to crusade_ ! .... but first get elected director and then work from 'inside the tent'


----------



## Freddie

8till8 said:


> You can buy copies of the accounts and company memo & articles (which details the rules for election of directors) from www.cro.ie for €2.50 each.
> 
> Then again since you are now a member of the company so the company secretary should give you this info for free upon request.
> 
> I agree with Blackrock1, I'd change approach from _persecution complex to crusade_ ! .... but first get elected director and then work from 'inside the tent'



Will do, just happens that the guy who thinks he's owns/runs the development is also the secretary.


----------



## jdwex

Just download what is up on cro.ie rather than chasing the company secretary. That is what i did.


----------



## elcato

Freddie said:


> The 2 directors are owner occupiers. 1 guy was just appointed the other guy thinks he owns the development. He's never going to be shifted off I'd say. He's been a director for years and his rotation has already come and gone. He's also the secretary. Sits in his penthouse watching everything.


Don't knock this. This is a great asset, a watchdog free of charge if you like. As others have alluded to, don't be surprised if this guy welcomes you with open arms.


----------



## Sunny

I spent two years on the Board of Directors for a management company when I lived in an apartment. NEVER AGAIN. Zero thanks. Huge Effort. The last AGM I did was just constant criticism for everything done. I announced I wanted to step down from the board and mentioned that anyone at that meeting could put themselves forward. It was a development of 126 units. Number of people to come forward after spending the last 90 minutes telling us what we were doing wrong? ZERO. 

Go on the board but as already mentioned, don't go on thinking you are going to change the world. It is very difficult and time consuming.


----------



## Freddie

Blackrock1 said:


> If I was you I’d get rid of the persecution complex and try and approach this rationally.
> If you become a director your will probably see the scope for making any sort of meaningful decrease in the mgt charge is small



So I've spent a good few hours the last week going through the proposed budget for next year with our AGM coming up soon.

I've gotten a few quotes on most of the line items in the budget, Insurance, Cleaning Internally, Window cleaning & drains, Lift Maintenance, Phone lines etc

In all cases I have cheaper quotes, considerable cheaper in some cases. Insurance for example is €2500 cheaper with the same Principal Risks, Buildings Insured for the same amount and contents in common area for the same amount.

Replacing fixed emergency phone lines for lift is 1/3 of the cost with GSM. There is no issue with signal and lifts are compatible.

It goes on, so I'm seeing lots of scope.

I'm new to this but I'm comparing like with like as much as possible, am I missing something?

Imo, as the owner of the Managing Agent Company we employ is a director of 10 - 15 other management agent companies, that he is putting all business through his "preferred" contractors/suppliers/brokers.


----------



## 8till8

Freddie said:


> Imo, as the owner of the Managing Agent Company we employ is a director of 10 - 15 other management agent companies, that he is putting all business through his "preferred" contractors/suppliers/brokers.



Thats so common, I think it comes with the territory.

Is the managing agent a director of your OMC?    They shouldn't be...


----------



## Freddie

8till8 said:


> Thats so common, I think it comes with the territory.
> 
> Is the managing agent a director of your OMC?    They shouldn't be...



No not a director, but the 2 directors, well one main guy is a bit clueless and takes everything the agent says at face value. 

I was shocked at the considerably lower cost quotes I could get for almost everything on our proposed budget. I wasnt looking at one man show companies either not that there is anything wrong with such providers.

For example €2500 off €11000 bulidings insurance quote with the buildings value at same price and the common area contents valued at the same price. 

With a little bit of I investigation I found out agent puts all the complexes he manages through the same broker! I scratch yours .....


----------



## Susie2017

What if a director also provides cleaning services to common areas for 14 k a year. And has been collecting that amount for 10 years. Around 100 apts in the development.


----------



## Freddie

Susie2017 said:


> What if a director also provides cleaning services to common areas for 14 k a year. And has been collecting that amount for 10 years. Around 100 apts in the development.


Is this what's happening with you Susie?


----------



## Freddie

I live in a development with 40 apartments and we have been charged 12k for as long as I can see.


----------



## Palerider

It's the modern day gold rush, owners need to take more interest and be more challenging, good for you, keep scratching away, it will benefit every owner not that you will ever get thanks for the effort.


----------



## Freddie

Palerider said:


> It's the modern day gold rush, owners need to take more interest and be more challenging, good for you, keep scratching away, it will benefit every owner not that you will ever get thanks for the effort.


Thanks for the encouragement. Looks like the managing agents are doing really well selling shovels and picks aswell!!


----------



## Susie2017

Yes. And the other has been managing the whole development for years for a monthly fee. And both have offered to be reelected for next year. So it can't be all too bad for them.  The problem is others are too busy to look into the accounts and see if it could be done cheaper. 1600 euro a year management fee, I'm sure it could be done for less.


----------



## Susie2017

Next years budget includes; Insurance 28k, electricity 18 k for common areas, management agent fee i.e directors fees 20k, refuse 18k, 108 apts mainly 2beds, Dublin area. Any thoughts ?


----------



## Freddie

My place is about half the size in terms of no. of apartments but all your fees are more than double ours. But I'm sure this isnt an accurate way of comparing.


----------



## 8till8

Susie2017 said:


> What if a director also provides cleaning services to common areas for 14 k a year. And has been collecting that amount for 10 years. Around 100 apts in the development.



Do you mean director of the managing agent or director of the owner management company?





Susie2017 said:


> management agent fee i.e directors fees 20k



Management agent fees and directors fees are two very different things...OMC directors are not supposed to be paid directors fee's so I presume you mean management agent fee's ??


----------



## Freddie

Does anyone know what level of detail as a member of a management company you are entitled too. 

My management companys agent isnt shopping around and he is just putting contracts through his  "preferred" providers. 

Can I get access to the figures and quotes they claim to be getting. They've said only directors have can have this access. Is this correct legally? Is there a way I can check on this?

Our 2 directors just take what the agent says at face value? 

Thanks everyone


----------



## Susie2017

No i mean two directors of the OMC. Yes one provides cleaning services. The other manages the development for the fee above. There was a separate outside management company employed years ago but they were more expensive and were hard to reach in the event of an issue. Very poor in fact.


----------



## Freddie

Susie2017 said:


> Next years budget includes; Insurance 28k, electricity 18 k for common areas, management agent fee i.e directors fees 20k, refuse 18k, 108 apts mainly 2beds, Dublin area. Any thoughts ?



Do you have any detail on any of your costs for next years budget?


----------



## 8till8

Susie2017 said:


> No i mean two directors of the OMC. Yes one provides cleaning services. The other manages the development for the fee above. There was a separate outside management company employed years ago but they were more expensive and were hard to reach in the event of an issue. Very poor in fact.




Numerous issues with the situation as you describe;

-conflict of interest where a director also provides cleaning services back to the OMC...how can any member be assured that its an above board arrangement?

-OMC directors earning fee's...thats totally wrong, sure we'd all be doing that if it was tolerated.  It may be against the company memo and articles, here is the clause in the standard law society version, but it depends whats in yours...
_*"No remuneration shall be payable to the Directors, but they may be paid all expenses properly incurred by them in connection with the business of the Company."*_

-If the members are self managing, they _may_ be required to hold a license from the PSRA. 

None of what you describe sounds healthy


----------



## notabene

Susie2017 said:


> Yes. And the other has been managing the whole development for years for a monthly fee. And both have offered to be reelected for next year. So it can't be all too bad for them.  The problem is others are too busy to look into the accounts and see if it could be done cheaper. 1600 euro a year management fee, I'm sure it could be done for less.



In a small development it’s hard to do it for less, our mgt fee is a bit more above that for 35 apartments - it’s approximately €65k per year to run the development with four very involved owner directors questioning all costs and keeping it in good order - when you’ve fewer apartments costs are going to be higher, you don’t have good economies of scale. And if I’m honest and not that I want it but the fee probably should be higher again in terms of improvements and contributions to the sinking fund - it can take very little in terms of issues to obliterate your sinking fund


----------



## notabene

Freddie said:


> Does anyone know what level of detail as a member of a management company you are entitled too.
> 
> My management companys agent isnt shopping around and he is just putting contracts through his  "preferred" providers.
> 
> Can I get access to the figures and quotes they claim to be getting. They've said only directors have can have this access. Is this correct legally? Is there a way I can check on this?
> 
> Our 2 directors just take what the agent says at face value?
> 
> Thanks everyone


You’re entitled to the budget - only directors are entitled to the bills - if you want more detail you need to attend the AGM and become a director.  

With all due respect running around getting quotes isn’t going to get you any favour from the current directors for example with insurance - you don’t know what claims have been made or other significant details which could have increased the price of the insurance - there may well be issues of ‘preferred suppliers’ and not shopping around but until you’re a director you won’t know the full story behind costs and charges as members aren’t told every aspect of what is going on. Only solution is to to the AGM and become a director yourself and then you can see what’s what and look at improvements as necessary


----------



## Freddie

notabene said:


> You’re entitled to the budget - only directors are entitled to the bills - if you want more detail you need to attend the AGM and become a director.
> 
> With all due respect running around getting quotes isn’t going to get you any favour from the current directors for example with insurance - you don’t know what claims have been made or other significant details which could have increased the price of the insurance - there may well be issues of ‘preferred suppliers’ and not shopping around but until you’re a director you won’t know the full story behind costs and charges as members aren’t told every aspect of what is going on. Only solution is to to the AGM and become a director yourself and then you can see what’s what and look at improvements as necessary



Ok can I request the bills then, as I'm paying for these with my  management fee.

With all due respect, I'm not looking for any favours with current directors. I'm just looking for our money to be spent in the most efficient way. And to have as much money diverted to our almost non existent sinking fund. I'm happy to keep mgmt fee the same.

If I take external window cleaning all quotes I received were €300 - €400 cheaper. Following a site visit, with same visits per year.

Internal cleaning is currently costing €13000. All quotes I received are for between €6000 and €6500.  I have also found out that the company the agent uses is an internal company to them. I'm getting these quotes following site visits and frequency of cleaning. One company cleans were my brother and his wife lives. They do an excellent job since he bought there.

Lift maintenance including fixed lines for emergency, all quotes were 30% - 40% less with same frequency of visits. This too follows sites visits in case of issues with the lift type we have.

Refuse collection quotes for same frequency of collection, same no of recycle and waste bin was €500 cheaper. This too followed a site visit by them.

And I can go on

So with due respect why are the current directors not doing this, instead of worrying about me doing them "favours" as you put it.

At the AGM the agent said to the floor that he didnt think it would be a good idea for me to become a director as he felt there was a clash of personalities with me and one of the directors.

I didnt think this was appropriate for him to do. Was this against the rules even? So I've been effectively black listed now from becoming a director for the foreseeable future.

In fact the real reason, is that the agent is worried to have someone as a director who will upset his income stream from his suppliers and contracts.


----------



## notabene

Freddie said:


> Ok can I request the bills then, as I'm paying for these with my  management fee.
> 
> With all due respect, I'm not looking for any favours with current directors. I'm just looking for our money to be spent in the most efficient way. And to have as much money diverted to our almost non existent sinking fund. I'm happy to keep mgmt fee the same.
> 
> If I take external window cleaning all quotes I received were €300 - €400 cheaper. Following a site visit, with same visits per year.
> 
> Internal cleaning is currently costing €13000. All quotes I received are for between €6000 and €6500.  I have also found out that the company the agent uses is an internal company to them. I'm getting these quotes following site visits and frequency of cleaning. One company cleans were my brother and his wife lives. They do an excellent job since he bought there.
> 
> Lift maintenance including fixed lines for emergency, all quotes were 30% - 40% less with same frequency of visits. This too follows sites visits in case of issues with the lift type we have.
> 
> Refuse collection quotes for same frequency of collection, same no of recycle and waste bin was €500 cheaper. This too followed a site visit by them.
> 
> And I can go on
> 
> So with due respect why are the current directors not doing this, instead of worrying about me doing them "favours" as you put it.
> 
> At the AGM the agent said to the floor that he didnt think it would be a good idea for me to become a director as he felt there was a clash of personalities with me and one of the directors.
> 
> I didnt think this was appropriate for him to do. Was this against the rules even? So I've been effectively black listed now from becoming a director for the foreseeable future.
> 
> In fact the real reason, is that the agent is worried to have someone as a director who will upset his income stream from his suppliers and contracts.



No you can’t request the bills and as I said to you previously you don’t know all the details involved which is not to say there aren’t improvements to be made but it may not be quite the situation you think it is. The basic running of a block, aside from improvements is more expensive than you might think.

If you are nominated as a potential director there is an election and it is up to the members to decide who they want as directors - not for anyone to suggest and if they do why can’t you argue your case -  but it is essential that the directors must be able to work together - and this is what I meant by not gaining favour with the current directors - nothing to do with income streams - perhaps perceptions of how you are presenting yourself & how you deal with the current directors, agents, other members during the  at the AGM and in between need to be considered


----------



## Freddie

notabene said:


> No you can’t request the bills and as I said to you previously you don’t know all the details involved which is not to say there aren’t improvements to be made but it may not be quite the situation you think it is. The basic running of a block, aside from improvements is more expensive than you might think.
> 
> If you are nominated as a potential director there is an election and it is up to the members to decide who they want as directors - not for anyone to suggest and if they do why can’t you argue your case -  but it is essential that the directors must be able to work together - and this is what I meant by not gaining favour with the current directors - nothing to do with income streams - perhaps perceptions of how you are presenting yourself & how you deal with the current directors, agents, other members during the  at the AGM and in between need to be considered



I took your point about not knowing about insurance. That's why I didnt mention this again. 

But in terms of cleaning internally and externally and not using fixed line for a lift. There is no background details to know or not to know here. e.g the internal cleaning for any other providers in the market is 50% less than the current provider. I have just found out that this cleaning company is closely linked to the agents company. 

If the directors were shopping around at all, this would be immediately be obvious.

Is it a law that prevents me from requesting the different bill amounts? After all I am paying for these amounts.

I dont understand what you mean about perceptions about how I deal with directors, agents or other members before or after AGM. 

I didn't have any contact with any of them to have good or bad perceptions either before or after. Why would you think I would have contact with them. The place to raise my concerns about the budget was the AGM and this was the only place I did.


----------



## Clamball

So is the AGM over now and you were not elected?   There is nothing you can do until next year now. 

 I think what Notabene is trying to say is that if you approach the AGM and say the current directors are too lazy (or inept) to keep costs down and are not improving the sinking fund because they leave all the decisions to the agent you may not get elected.   But if you say I am enthusiastic to join as a director because I want to help with getting quotes and keeping running costs good value for money and we can then divert surplus into sinking fund then people will vote for you.  You need to put your efforts into meeting some of the residents and telling them what you hope to achieve rather than saying the current lot are a shower of idiots, we pay 10K for lifts and I can get it for €5K.  It’s all the same message but in one you are awkward and confrontational and in the other you are enthusiastic and helpful.


----------



## Freddie

Clamball said:


> So is the AGM over now and you were not elected?   There is nothing you can do until next year now.
> 
> I think what Notabene is trying to say is that if you approach the AGM and say the current directors are too lazy (or inept) to keep costs down and are not improving the sinking fund because they leave all the decisions to the agent you may not get elected.   But if you say I am enthusiastic to join as a director because I want to help with getting quotes and keeping running costs good value for money and we can then divert surplus into sinking fund then people will vote for you.  You need to put your efforts into meeting some of the residents and telling them what you hope to achieve rather than saying the current lot are a shower of idiots, we pay 10K for lifts and I can get it for €5K.  It’s all the same message but in one you are awkward and confrontational and in the other you are enthusiastic and helpful.



Clamball I didn't mention anything at the AGM about how useless or inept the directors are. Or how the managing agent is making all decisions re contracts and suppliers.

I started off saying that I know being a director takes lots of work and looks like a thankless job. 

I said I had gotten some quotes for the budget items and I was shut down mid flow by the managing agent.

I kept all my opinions to myself and just kept it objective. I just stuck to the figures in my quotes as a comparison to the the budget figures.

I said my main intention was to add all saving to the non existent sinking fund.


----------



## Freddie

Your advice is really good Clamball. Thanks. 

Before the AGM my brother had said something similar to me.

But I did become confrontational when the agent shut me down when I was going through my quotes showing that for the same no. of hours or for the same no. of visits or for the equivalent proposed costs we could get the same for x.

I was wrong here and this didnt help me I know. But I was frustrated at not being given the time to speak given the amount of work I had put into getting quotes.

A few of the residents who did attend, thanked me after the meeting and said not to give up heart.

I honestly think they see the agent as the "boss" , I'm sorry that's probably the wrong word to use, but in that vain anyway.


----------



## llgon

Freddie said:


> A few of the residents who did attend, thanked me after the meeting and said not to give up heart.



Sorry to hear the meeting did not go so well. However it may be a wake up call to the agent that they need to get more competitive quotes for the next budget.

Did you put yourself forward as a Director? Was there a vote? Was it close? Did the residents who thanked you vote for you?

Although they may regard the agent as a figure of authority I'm sure they realise that with their vote things can change, if they want change. When they told you not to give up, did you ask if you would have their support in the future?


----------



## Freddie

Thank you. I hope it is a wake up call. Or at least he is aware that someone else is watching the figures. From what I gathered, this hasn't happened before.

Yes I said I wanted to become a director. The 1st response from the agent was that I should have put myself forward earlier in the meeting. I put myself forward when he asked about AOB, I didn't see another time to do this.

The managing agent then said he didnt think it would be a good idea as it was obvious to him that there was a personality clash between me and another director. He is right in terms of I disagreed with the budget that they had put forward. Given the 2 weeks of effort I'd put into getting quotes etc. I wasnt just ranting at a meeting, saying this and that is a disgrace...."down with that sort of thing". I had figures, supplier quotes etc 

The agent decided it wasnt a good idea for me to go forward, so there was no voting.

I was then told we needed to wrap up as the meeting room was booked for an hour and they were looking for the room back immediately, and the meeting was ended.

Even that was frustrating as people milled about for another 10 mins. This is when some people thanked me.

You are correct in that I wasnt organised properly in terms of getting support from other owners beforehand though.

I've gotten emails since, from 2 other owners who want to see my research/quotes etc. I'll need to type up my notes and get the quotes together for circulation.

At the end of the day it should be about getting the best for the development, value for money good service etc.

I'm happy to do the background stuff and have someone else present it at meetings.

As Clamball said in a better way.


----------



## Freddie

It was a bad experience in the meeting but it was a good learning experience.

I'm completely new to all this, AGMs, directors, managing agents....I have alot to learn and was very green and naive...I know that now too.


----------



## llgon

It's good to keep in touch with other owners for the moment. When next year's AGM is on the horizon you can decide if you wish to put yourself forward as director again and no doubt you will be more prepared next time.

Once you follow the rules for election of Directors it doesn't matter if the managing agent thinks it's a good idea or not. It's totally up to the owners.


----------



## Clamball

Have a look at your rules for AGMs.  I would not be surprised if you need to be nominated and seconded in advance, by writing, for there to be an election.  Having directors elected in AOB sounds wrong.  It’s good to have other owners interested as they can nominate and vote for you next year.


----------



## Sunny

That was a very odd intervention by the Management Agent at the AGM. They had no right to say that. If you don't want to wait until next year, you could try and get support for calling an EGM but you need to detail exactly why you are calling it e.g. You have concerns about the budget etc. At the very least, make it very clear before the next AGM that you are looking for election to the board and ensure that the item is on the Agenda. 

As an owner even if you are not a director, you are perfectly entitled to see the books of the Management Company and the Management Agent must make them available to you. This would include evidence of proper procurement by getting multiple quotes etc. In my previous development, we did an audit once a year which consisted of the directors and at least 2 owners going into the offices of the Management Agent for two days and examining the books. Again, you are relying on people having the expertise, the time and the desire to do this.....Brings back nightmares to be honest...


----------



## elcato

If it's any help, I just checked the notice I got about the AGM this year and it just stated that anyone who would like to put themselves forward for nomination for the directors would need to notify the management agent no less than three days before the meeting.


----------



## Freddie

Sunny, yes I couldn't believe that the agent did this. I know he said it was because of how I had clashed, meaning asking hard questions, where the director or himself didnt have adequate answers. 

The real reason is he doesnt want anyone upsetting his cash cow with his little setup of contractors and suppliers.

In terms of seeing the paperwork behind the figures quoted in the budget, he has said that only directors are allowed access to this.

Is there something legal saying I can see or request this? I have no problem getting/paying for legal advice on this. In the end it would be money well spent by myself and we (all apartment owners) would all benefiting in the short term and long term.

Having an audit like you had, sounds a like a brilliant idea. I'd have no problem using my own time. I'm sick of the small guys being screwed by the bigger operators(in all aspects of life!!)

Thanks alot for giving me all this info.


----------



## cremeegg

Freddie said:


> In terms of seeing the paperwork behind the figures quoted in the budget, he has said that only directors are allowed access to this.


As a general matter of company law this is correct.



Sunny said:


> As an owner even if you are not a director, you are perfectly entitled to see the books of the Management Company and the Management Agent must make them available to you.


This may well be the case but I wonder what is the legal basis for the statement.



Freddie said:


> Having an audit like you had, sounds a like a brilliant idea.


An audit, as legally defined and applied to thousands of companies would be unlikely to be of any help to you. It would simply be an auditors opinion that the accounts are materially correct. i.e. the accounts say €x,000 was spent on insurance and in the auditors opinion that is what was spent on insurance. An audit would not normally ask if this was good value, or if a better price was available.


----------



## Freddie

To me (admittedly as a complete newbie) I suppose the bit I dont understand, is why I can't see some details of the bills I'm paying.

I'm not looking to see anything that's not related to these bills.


----------



## Zenith63

Freddie said:


> To me (admittedly as a complete newbie) I suppose the bit I dont understand, is why I can't see some details of the bills I'm paying.
> 
> I'm not looking to see anything that's not related to these bills.


I'm a Director of an OMC and have been asked for this by an owner, I pushed back fairly firmly.  I do this role free-of-charge in my own personal time (which I have less and less of these days with young kids) and ultimately if the other owners do not trust my (and the other Directors') judgement then they should replace us and volunteer themselves.  An OMC is little different to a 'real' company, you as an owner are like a Shareholder and the Directors are appointed to run the business; shareholders in companies do not get involved in the day-to-day running of the company, if they're not happy with how the Board are running the company they seek to replace them.

From following this thread it does seem like there may be issues with your existing Directors and management agent, but I'm just posting to say that even if you get to a best-case scenario with really great Directors, they should not be sharing bills or day-to-day operations of the OMC - because they've been appointed so owners don't have to worry about this stuff and owners should not be unreasonably increasing the free-of-charge commitment these people have made.

It sounds to me like you need to replace the Board.  Look up the memos and articles of the OMC, in all likelihood all Directors must resign and be reelected each year.  Speak to some other members, if there's a clear majority in agreement with you then you show up and vote the Directors out.  If you think there's serious impropriety going on, with enough votes you should be able to schedule an EGM sooner to replace the Board.


----------



## Freddie

Prior to the AGM I had asked the management agent for a copy of the past 12 months electricity bills. I was told no. I was starting simple.

We use a package called MyBlockMan I dont see why all information relating to our contractors, suppliers and bill's cannot be uploaded here and made available to all our owners. 

In my case I haven't requested anything from the 2 directors. My requests have been to the Managing Agents Company who I thought managed this for us/our Management Company.


----------



## Freddie

Yes there are serious issues here. The agent is appointing his own suppliers and contractors for work. We are being asked to pay for 3 different pieces of work in the coming year on top of our annual management fee. If we had of been paying the market rate, for example with internal cleaning we would now have alot of the money needed in our sinking fund to pay for this work.


----------



## Zenith63

It's not unusual for the management agent to be giving work to people they know and trust, to be honest it's an advantage when done right because the contractor should do good work as they won't want the tap turned off.  Your Directors just need to be sure to get the odd second quote to keep the agent honest.

FWIW I think you're probably wasting your time trying to hold the existing Directors and agent to account and trying to get them to clean up their act.  You might get your management fee down a small amount and will receive no thanks.  I think instead you need to speak to other owners and see if they feel the same way as you, if they do then 2-3 of you need to decide that you want to take over as Directors and go about making that happen - the process is generally fairly simple and covered in your memos and arts (available on the CRO website).  If you don't have the support of the vast majority of other members honestly I'd suggest try to forget about it and put that effort into saving the few hundred quid elsewhere in your own life.

Have been in almost the exact same scenario and saw all your frustrations played out.  It got fixed when a couple of us just kicked out the existing Directors at an EGM.


----------



## cremeegg

Freddie said:


> I dont see why all information relating to our contractors, suppliers and bill's cannot be uploaded here and made available to all our owners.



Because there is no legal obligation on the directors to give you this information, and they don't like you so they will not provide it voluntarily.


----------



## Freddie

Zenith63 said:


> It's not unusual for the management agent to be giving work to people they know and trust, to be honest it's an advantage when done right because the contractor should do good work as they won't want the tap turned off.  Your Directors just need to be sure to get the odd second quote to keep the agent honest.
> 
> FWIW I think you're probably wasting your time trying to hold the existing Directors and agent to account and trying to get them to clean up their act.  You might get your management fee down a small amount and will receive no thanks.  I think instead you need to speak to other owners and see if they feel the same way as you, if they do then 2-3 of you need to decide that you want to take over as Directors and go about making that happen - the process is generally fairly simple and covered in your memos and arts (available on the CRO website).  If you don't have the support of the vast majority of other members honestly I'd suggest try to forget about it and put that effort into saving the few hundred quid elsewhere in your own life.
> 
> Have been in almost the exact same scenario and saw all your frustrations played out.  It got fixed when a couple of us just kicked out the existing Directors at an EGM.


Thanks for taking the time for your reply. It's just I know the work 2 of the cleaning companies do from my brothers apartment and from a friends place. One company does windows and external work and the other cleans internally. 

So it's not like I'm just Googling contractors. But I get your point. 

I'm am trying to weigh up if I'll be able to oust them and at what cost(mental health wise) 

I'd be happy to keep paying the same management fee. But if the money we all pay was used in a more cost effective way we would be able to build the sinking fund.(or pay for immediate big ish jobs)

Right now we are being asked to pay €20k immediately for a job and they have another €60k job in the pipeline. These are all separate to the management fee we just paid. 

Luckily 1 other owner at the AGM agree with me and we have asked for more options on the €60k job. But the agent and 1 of the directors were all on for ploughing ahead.

Right now we could cover the €20k job with the existing management fee if we changed to some of the providers I have received quotes from.

I haven't picked any contractors off the internet, all are from people who are happy with the different companys work, from places they live in themselves.

Not sure why but the fact you could see my frustrations played out was a good thing in a way...


----------



## Freddie

cremeegg said:


> Because there is no legal obligation on the directors to give you this information, and they don't like you so they will not provide it voluntarily.


 
Is it pointless in me getting a solicitor then? 

My plan was to try and get all the info on our budget figures and then put these along side the quotes I have received and present this report/document to individual owners. It needs to be down in black and white. 

The very worse that could happen is its gets a conversation going. But hand on heart we can save €6500 - €7000 per year with just the internal cleaning. This is with a reputable company who have done a site visit to where I live and I have seen their work for years in another development.


----------



## Zenith63

A solicitor will not be able to force them to hand over the bills, if that’s what you’re asking? Again you’re just a shareholder here, imagine being a shareholder in AIB and asking them to send you costs and bills to look at, just not the way companies work, and for good reason.

if you want to pursue it then no solicitor required yet, instead go and speak to owners and see if you have support. You’ll need a clear majority and from people who will actually show up to meetings and vote. A solicitor may be useful at this point to interpret the memos and arts of the company to explain to you what needs to be done to oust the existing Board, though as I say you can look this up yourself either. The Boards if OMCs are supposed to be voluntary, so it is perfectly normal that the Directors should be changing somewhat regularly, so you won’t be doing anything unusual bringing this about.


----------



## Sunny

Forget solicitors and company law. You and the other owners have the power to change this using AGM's and EGM's. The Directors are legally allowed under the 2014 Companies Act to make whatever accounting records they like available for inspection to Non-Directors. They are however allowed to place restrictions around the time and place this could be done to avoid people coming up every day looking to check a receipt. Like I said, we had a couple of members go in for 1-2 days every year to look at records and evidence of procurement especially around large items of expenditure etc. If your directors are not willing to allow this, you are entitled to use the AGM or EGM to change the Board as mentioned above if you can get the support from other owners and you really believe there are issues. But as I said before, be ready for indifference, anger, insults, no gratitude, long hours, misery, stress....


----------



## Freddie

Ok Sunny. I'm typing up my findings now with the quotes I've received from the different providers, suppliers and contractors. I already have a no. owners who can see the issues we have, but as I have felt, weren't sure what to do with the problems they saw. (We needed a pre AGM get together)

I'm happy to organise us as a collective on this. I know we were this, in terms of being owners but we did all feel individual here.

Up to now I have about €15k in "savings" based on quotes I have received where the contractors with these quotes will be carrying out the same job as the existing ones, in terms of sites visits etc. As I said before I haven't just gone with the cheapest for a "cowboy" job, this is my home.

As someone new to this area, I dont understand why quotes, invoices bills etc aren't just uploaded to the software package all owners currently use and have access to, it called MyBlockMan. The agent in our devopment already maintains the content here.

With this directors or agents wouldnt need to handle/deal with ad hoc requests for information. It's all in one place, single source of truth etc.  

Any questions or issue can then be brought up at AGMs and/or meetings we have or could have during the year.


----------



## Zenith63

Freddie said:


> As someone new to this area, I dont understand why quotes, invoices bills etc aren't just uploaded to the software package all owners currently use and have access to, it called MyBlockMan.
> 
> With this directors or agents wouldnt need to handle/deal with ad hoc requests for information. It's all in one place, single source of truth etc.


To be frank, because of exactly what you're doing now.  While you might be doing this with the best of intentions, there are a lot of people out there who have time on their hands and would make a nuisance of themselves going through the receipts querying this and that with Directors who again are giving their time free-of-charge and largely without thanks.

Again lots of direct experience of that right here and I'm only involved in a single tiny development much smaller than yours .  If you do get on the Board yourself I think you'll look back on this discussion with a smile.


----------



## Freddie

Zenith63 said:


> To be frank, because of exactly what you're doing now.  While you might be doing this with the best of intentions, there are a lot of people out there who have time on their hands and would make a nuisance of themselves going through the receipts querying this and that with Directors who again are giving their time free-of-charge and largely without thanks.
> 
> Again lots of direct experience of that right here and I'm only involved in a single tiny development much smaller than yours .  If you do get on the Board yourself I think you'll look back on this discussion with a smile.



Ok thank you. My idea would be that questions are all bundled together for the AGM or another organised meeting during the year.

I'd prefer to be asking the management agents company and not the directors as I know the directors are giving of their own time but the agent is getting handsomely paid.

From lots of other posters it seems I'm seeing things in an ideal world....which is far from MC reality.

Everyone so far is telling me the same...my blissful ignorance and naivety is endearing....or delusional


----------



## dc2020

8till8 said:


> Do you mean director of the managing agent or director of the owner management company?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Management agent fees and directors fees are two very different things...OMC directors are not supposed to be paid directors fee's so I presume you mean management agent fee's ??




can i ask what ever happened in this case
Do you mean director of the managing agent or director of the owner management company? we had a caretaker/director and could spent sinking fee money once they management agent signed off on it. Anything we can do in this case


----------

