# Employer obliged to give details of short working week & hours?



## Plek Trum (10 Dec 2012)

Hello,

After weeks of being casually told by my employer that 'things will have to change in the New Year' I asked them for a definite answer as to what would be happening.

I was told my hours would be cut but employer refuses to say by what, when, or how this will happen.

I am just about to draw down a mortgage with my partner for our first home and I need to know if there is a legal obligation on my employer to define what these changes are now, rather than letting it run into New Year and at some stage. 

I checked the NERA website but could not find conclusive answer. 

We are a small business, no HR dept. or contracts, my employer is the only source of information.

Basically, I will need to find a second job or new full-time employment if my hours are cut below a certain level. 

It is impossible to currently look for a second job when I don't know what my availability will be!

Help appreciated - contracts due to be signed in next 2 - 3 weeks and now we don't know if we will be forced to pull out.


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## ajapale (10 Dec 2012)

Hi Plek,

Search the forum for "short time working" and you will get some hits like these. Short-time working and redundancy. A few questions!

aj


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## Plek Trum (10 Dec 2012)

ajapale said:


> Hi Plek,
> 
> Search the forum for "short time working" and you will get some hits like these. Short-time working and redundancy. A few questions!
> 
> aj


 
Will have a browse.. thanks


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## dereko1969 (10 Dec 2012)

If I were you i'd pull out of the house purchase in any event. 

If your job is going to be under some sort of threat, whether with reduced hours of some sort and with such a huge commitment in terms of a multi-annual loan I'd think again.

Obviously if your mortgage is very small this might be affordable but I wouldn't take the chance just now.

There will be other houses.


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## Plek Trum (10 Dec 2012)

Its true Derek, we've been debating the same thing.

Issue is our monthly mortgage repayment would be pretty much the same as rent we are paying now, bar the associated life and mortgage assurance / insurance (approx 70euro per month or less, approx 18euro a week extra which is fine).

Dont know whether its wrong to pass on our ideal home (which we wont be able to afford when market values increase or return). Hard to decide whether its more foolish to walk away from this opportunity (and it is a good one) or more foolish to take it on now that this question mark hangs over my (once) secure employment.

If I could just get a straight answer as to the changes I would have a proper basis from which to decide. Spoke with employer again today, clamly and reasonably, requesting any information and direction on the changes and suffered a bit of abuse for "putting a gun" to their head.

Tried to politely and civily explain that they have been mentioning it for months, confirmed last Friday when I raised the issue that it is going to happen and then today I'm told it might not, or it will but they dont know when, then again it might not and so on and so forth. In the meantime contacts are nearing completion and mortgage is ready to go!

Stress is stress I can appreciate that, but in a professional work environment I would have expected better.


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## dereko1969 (10 Dec 2012)

In fairness to your employer they are probably trying all they can to keep the business going full pelt and not reduce peoples hours or so it seems from what you've said. Also once rumours get out (as they always do) that a business is in trouble then credit terms might be reduced and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I can't believe there won't be more similarly dream-like houses coming up in the near future. Prices don't seem to be moving much.

Start applying for a new job now, pass on this house and in the new year you'll be in a better position. 

You don't want to buy a house and almost immediately be under pressure to keep up repayments - *that* is stress, not what you're currently going through.


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## SarahMc (10 Dec 2012)

When you say contracts are almost ready, do you think you might make the MIR deadline?

I'm going against the grain here and suggest you think twice about losing this opportunity over something that may or may not happen.


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## mark1 (11 Dec 2012)

Maybe ask to sit down for ten mins with your employer and explain your predicament re your house purchase, I can understand where he is coming from as not many small businesses really know what is around the corner but the least your entitled to is a little honesty and respect leaving aside the fact that you are also legally entitled to a contract and terms and conditions of employment be it part time or full time. Dont know how your fixed financially but i would be doing my budget minus your Income at the minute


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## Bronte (11 Dec 2012)

I cannot believe you would contemplate the added stress of house purchase when your job is not permanent. And you logic is that it's the dream house and you will not afford to buy when property prices go up. 

Looks like your employer is struggling and you badgering him is only adding to his stress. He seems to be doing his best to stay in business and keep you and other employed. Presumable he cannot tell you how many hours because he doesn't know from one day to the next if he will be able to stay in business. I imagine he's a lot more stressed than you. 

Have you stress tested your mortgage interest rate? What percentage are you borrowing? And over what term and how many multiples of salary is it? There are a lot of costs to house purchase that people don't factor in.


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## RichInSpirit (11 Dec 2012)

If you are getting a mortgage at this time with a part time job it looks like you have good savings.
I agree that your employer is probably very stressed in the current environment, and you will have to trust your own instinct with regards to your house purchase. 
If you lose your job sometime after your house purchase you will still have a degree of protection from the State. And if you have savings it gives you a cushion as well.


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## Plek Trum (11 Dec 2012)

Thanks guys - yes, lots of very vaild points and we have spent hours debating them all.

We are very realistic with things and I have absolutely no problem wahtsoever with hours being cut.  I'm well aware of the pressures and flexibility everybody must have in these times and at the end of the day, there is nothing personal whatsoever in doing what needs to be done in order to keep a business viable - basic common sense!  My employer knows this and in fact, I have been the one in the past to reassure them about this and how, if it were my business, I would contemplate the same options.

My only request, which I asked for yesterday is that if changes are needed, then why don't we implement them, reduce hours to save some money.  Once we know what we are working with, I can try and get a second job, our other staff member too and make up the weekly shortfall personally.  Reiterated to employer if it needs to be done then we are behind them, understand and support the changes and there's no issue with it.  Employer reacted so badly, tirrade of abuse and I was accused of 'issuing them an ulitmatum' and was this my way of handing in my notice.
I appreciate they are stressed, kept a cool head and try to keep things as cal, supportive and reasonable as possible.

The house - its a very simple house, 2 story farmhouse but in a lovely location with a view of the sea.  Nothing huge or grandios, 2.5 bedrooms.  We saved during the 'good years' so we would have a good deposit and savings.  we have had to save to start our family with use of fertility treatment and our wishes all along were to have our own house before our children come.  (Treatment has started, so far so good and we have a seperate budget for these expenses) This however, I know, is all my own personal life and has nothing whatsoever to do with my employer.

Finance wise, its the same amount per month as we pay in rent, bar an extra 18euros or so per week that it would cost for associated mortgage and life insurances / protection etc. Very manageable and no added stress, even with a reasonable fluctuation in mortgage rates.

Appreciate all your honest opnions and thanks, everyone has a valid point and we are aware of all sides.  We are reminding ourselves that this is jsut an opportunity and while a perfect one we have waited, saved and planned for, its an opportunity and not an essential.    We are fortunate to both still be working, albeit on uncertain hours and we acknowledge this. Clarity of course, would help so much in knowing whether to proceed or walk away from our plans but thats not a given for anyone these days I know.

Sit tight, do up CV and see what else is out there.  Christmas will bide us sometime to gather our thoughts, stay hopeful (and delay signing contracts).  Will see what the new year brings.


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## partnership (11 Dec 2012)

I am also going against the flow here.  If things are not tight which they don't seem to be as it is the same as your rent then go for it.  If your hours are reduced you may be able to get jobseekers for days not worked whilst looking for another job.  As long as your partners job is secure then go for it!


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## delgirl (11 Dec 2012)

partnership said:


> I am also going against the flow here. If things are not tight which they don't seem to be as it is the same as your rent then go for it. If your hours are reduced you may be able to get jobseekers for days not worked whilst looking for another job. As long as your partners job is secure then go for it!


Agree with Partnership - also when you approach your current employer, ask him if there's anything you personally can do to help him with the business to improve the situation for everyone.


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## Plek Trum (11 Dec 2012)

Oh I know - its all swings and round abouts.  Your thoughts are what come up with us also Partnership!

We have to pay our rent anyway, my partners job is secure.  We are trying to come up with the best all round decision and until I can get clarity on my employment situation (I will still have a job, it will just be at a lower rate, ie less hours. Once I know figures we can make a plan, look at alternatives and try plan for shortfall with a second job).

Can't get that clairty though, despite best patience and efforts.  To revert to my original question though - is there an obligation on an employer to give details of changed working hours, pay etc once they have said changes will happen?

Im not going to throw some legal jargon at an already obviously stressed employer, but would like to know for my own benefit.

To clarify the work situation, we are still turning a healthy profit, quite so, but it is less than previously.  Wages, bills, overheads are all paid on time and without question.  Reducing hours is to reduce staff costs solely, which is fine and an obvious choice to make which all employees understand if it has to be done.


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## Plek Trum (11 Dec 2012)

delgirl said:


> Agree with Partnership - also when you approach your current employer, ask him if there's anything you personally can do to help him with the business to improve the situation for everyone.


 
I have done that Delgirl and have done so for the last few years and months.  This is our second adjustment and at no stage have we given out or had an issue with the cuts.  Its basic common sense and we would rather have a secure job on less pay than no work at all!

I have stepped up all productivity, extra sales on sundries where possible, called in all outstanding debts.  Renegotiated discounts with suppliers etc and cross checked, found cheaper alternatives where possible.   Worked late without asking for payment etc.

Told employer yesterday the same thing, we understand and support the changes if they have to be done - but we should do them, no point spending another 4 months with 'I dont know what we're going to do, I'll be cutting hours' and then walking off without a plan in place to move forward with.

As before, we are fortunate though that is an issue of an opportunity rather than an essential, we are trying to remind ourselves of this.  Adding to the stress in work or at home simply isnt worth it and is, if anything, counter productive!


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## Bronte (11 Dec 2012)

Plek Trum said:


> I have stepped up all productivity, extra sales on sundries where possible, called in all outstanding debts. Renegotiated discounts with suppliers etc and cross checked, found cheaper alternatives where possible. Worked late without asking for payment etc.
> 
> !


 
You sound like a great employee Plek Trum, one that any employer would love to have. By the reaction of your boss to your request it looks to me that he is under a lot more stress than you realise. You don't know what is going on in his head with running a business with perhaps many debts and dwindling sales. There are clearly serious problems. He may be so stressed he is now unable to deal with the business correctly. Thread softly.  There may appear to be profit to you but you do not know his personal debts and other pressures.

This doesn't solve your problem, but losing a job is not good for anyone.    How about you yourself pretend your hours are a lot less and a corresponding lower salary and then see if the property makes sense based on that figure.


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## Plek Trum (11 Dec 2012)

Theres no doubt they are under stress and I know this as they are both a friend and employer. They have recently committed to a very big project personally and financially - too big some family and friends thought. But thats their right and absolute perogative, if you have trained, worked hard and established a business then you are entitled to enjoy the rewards. Its just that they don't seem to have realised that the recession applies to their own personal finances too!  No one is exempt and everyone has to work with current situations.  They seem to have overlooked this and I think now they are starting too realise the magnitude of their project and how to finance it.  

Treading very softly, will keep my head down and quietly explore options. Adding drama to an already fragile situation wont help anything. We will bide our time on our own plans and hopefully the New Year will reveal a clearer path for our own plans both in terms of a home, or pull out, wait and keep working on our savings, or securing new fulltime work again (harder but must keep optimistic). 

All options which we are fortunate to have. 
Once we keep hold of that mantra we'll be fine!


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## Plek Trum (11 Dec 2012)

Bronte said:


> This doesn't solve your problem, but losing a job is not good for anyone. How about you yourself pretend your hours are a lot less and a corresponding lower salary and then see if the property makes sense based on that figure.


 
Totally agree with you - and will do everything necessary to keep my job and a healthy working environment.  Did the 'budget' on a lower salary (guess work at this stage) and no, I wouldn't take the risk of securing the house based on half my current salary ( worst case scenario).

If I did know for definate what days / time off I would have, I could however start looking for temp. work to build up the shortfall.  I have a few contacts that I could approach directly for part-time work and if not, there are some small jobs available in nearby towns.

Failing that, I start looking for a new full-time job elsewhere, if this isn't secured in the area I live, then purchasing the house wont be cost effective if I am facing 2.5 hour round trip commute each day to nearby locations. 

All unknown and really, no-one can provide the answers.  If I could just get a clear answer on the changes I could try and take some control of the situation however and try to put changes into place to secure a good outcome for our future.

Patience and a realistic approach will be key I think.


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## dereko1969 (11 Dec 2012)

Remember that if your boss works it out properly you can sign on for benefits for the days you are not working - this means it's better if you do a 2 or 3 day week rather than 5 mornings. So it wouldn't be quite the deduction in wages.


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## Plek Trum (11 Dec 2012)

Cheers Derek, yes, we were temporarily on this system a few years ago for about 6 months until things picked up again. As far as I know there are changes to Jobseekers Benefit / Allowance i nthe recent budget though.  If I recall off top of my head, daily rate based over 6 days was about 31 euros a day.

Its definately a help, but I would see it only as a temporary gap filler rather than part of a budgeted plan going forward. Important to keep it in mind though yes (and we have to play by the rules as the SWO office is opposite our place of work!)


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## Plek Trum (20 Feb 2013)

*UPDATE and new query:*
*MODS: IF you feel this should be in a new thread then please feel free to do so.*

Did not go ahead with house purchase, we erred on side of caution. 
I need opinon and advice on the following related situatio nhowever please:

Employer called a meeting yesterday, we were told we would no longer be paid weekly but would be going on an 'per hour' rate. Basically, if we are busy, we work, if not, we don't work. This is going to be on a per day basis (e.g no notice, or will be decided on the day). We are also being asked to sign contracts for the first time since I worked here.
My questions are:

1) 
Can an employer enforce contracts now after a 7 year period?
I have no major issue n doing so but I am concerned of the legal implications for my own position. Employer has been taking legal advice.

2) I was given less than 20hrs notice to agree to this change in payment and arranged working hours. Is this legal?

3) I requested a breakdown of what my hourly rate would be. Employer has not given this to me, does not have it organised. I cannot commit to agreement to changes until I have this. Is this legal?

4) I was employed fulltime in my role when I started. My employer wants me to take a further reduction in hours in order to pass some work to a colleague who is employed in a different role. Off the record, my employer has said they are worried that this colleague ‘has a case against them’ for some reason should they become upset. I don’t feel I should have to do this simply to placate an unccoperative colleague. Person mentioned did aspects of my role prior to my employment seven years ago but has not done so sine I was employed, returning to their own different position fulltime.

I could not contact NERA as it was after 6pm yesterday and canot do so discreetly this morning.

I would hugely appreciate your advice and opinions. 
Employer has told me directly that I should be the one to go and they are demanding flexibility and reduced hours to keep other colleague happy. This is ‘to keep me in a job’. I find this a little threatening but I am mainting a cool and calm approach. 

As before - NO HR dept, no contracts, no other Manager to seek advice from.  Many thanks


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## terrysgirl33 (20 Feb 2013)

I don't know the answer to your questions, except to say, how's the job search going?  I would find the uncertainty very hard to deal with.  It also doesn't matter if you have a case against your employer if your employer goes under and isn't able to pay you.  BTW, you mentioned fertility treatment, how is that going?


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## Plek Trum (20 Feb 2013)

Hello Terrysgirl33 - job search is slow but I'm optimistic. We live in southern rural town so locally there isn't much at all (typical story of mass emigration, people returning to city etc) Larger satellite towns an hour commute away and I am in process of applying for positions there. 

Its tricky at the moment as we are mid IVF treatment with a clinic, random appointments with days off depending on cycles and scans etc. I can get cover here at relatively short notice (lucky so far) , taking these days from my annual leave, but I dont think its the right impression when starting a new job! 

Ideal situation is to determine some sort of set working day in present position until baby arrives and top up days off with any job (say 2 / 3 days a week) in order to maintain a steady income. Lot to juggle, trying to be calm and realistic and do what is best longterm.


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