# the day enda lost the next election-awful



## NOAH (5 Feb 2013)

well just seen enda on vincent browne and all I can say is the sooner the next election arrives the better.  that man needs to move along quietly into obscurity.

the most heartless and disgusting performance I have ever seen by a so called human being.

they should hang their heads in shame.


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## Leper (6 Feb 2013)

I missed it, what heartless and disgusting performance happened?


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## Grizzly (6 Feb 2013)

I agree. Unfortunately who is left to vote for?


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## Purple (6 Feb 2013)

Bertie’s apology cost the state €1’000’000’000.
The religious orders were meant to pay half of that. The paid 15%. 
Maybe this time the government is engaging their brain before they open their mouth.


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## NOAH (6 Feb 2013)

well if enda is demonstrating a brain then god help us.

[broken link removed]

and the most horrible part is when the clip of shatter is played.  To be fair lets add a bit FINE GAEL knew in 2009 what everyone else knew had happened but when the report was published they behave as if it was all new information.

Its a given that compensation will have to be paid.


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## blueband (6 Feb 2013)

dont want to defend enda here, but really he would  have said exactly what he was told to say by the legal 'back room' boys! thats how it works


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## gillarosa (6 Feb 2013)

There is no indication that the surviving women are looking for huge payouts, but there are problem as a consequence of them being non PAYE/PRSI workers and as a result have not pension entitlements which is something which needs to be addressed. BUT this nasty behaviour by the Government as some kind of slap down for potential claims is disgusting, do they not realise that sometimes we just need to acknowledge wrong has been done and apologise, its been a long time coming and won't in iteself cost a penny. Whatever the consequences are for Kenny and FG in this, it may be the straw that will send Labour out into the political desert for the foreseeable


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## dereko1969 (6 Feb 2013)

I think this was handled poorly - I think someone in the Attorney General's office didn't have the wit to come up with a form of words that enabled an apology to be made that didn't imply the Government was liable for payments. But, I don't think it's really that big of a deal.

I fail to see how the previous poster thinks this is more damaging to Labour than to Fine Gael.

The difference between contributory and non-contributory pensions is very small at the moment so I don't see how the cost given the small numbers affected could be of concern.

Presumably Revenue will now go after the orders looking for PRSI payments? Hopefully the State will go after the orders more fully now for all the money they've cost the State.


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## Sunny (6 Feb 2013)

Bit unfair to say Bertie's apology cost the State all that money. Wasn't like the apology was used in Court to get a huge settlement. 

The UK Government seems to be able to apologise quiet regularly. Always wonder about the people in the AG office. Sometimes they seem afraid of seeing the inside of a court. How many times in recent years have the previous and current Government hidden behind so called legal advice.


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## Vanilla (6 Feb 2013)

Of course the survivors ( and potentially next of kin, children of etc) of the Magdelene Laundries are going to look for financial compensation, both for the simple non-payment of wages, prsi etc but also for the abuse they suffered, the deprivation of freedom, the abuse and the trauma etc etc. I've been listening to a few of the survivors interviewed on the radio over the last few days and almost without exception the issue of compensation is raised. Most people would probably agree that they should be entitled to it. The  problem with the government issuing an apology on behalf of the state is that they don't want to admit full liability as there is also the Church's role to be considered. Are both liable- is one more liable than the other-where does the compensation come from? Sure a form of wording could have been cobbled together that Kenny could have spouted being an insincere legalistic non-prejudicial 'apology' but in my view that would have been a worse insult.  What has happened in the past because of the failure of the state to step in and protect these vulnerable children and young women ( and some not so young) cannot be altered now. Actions will speak louder than words.


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## Purple (6 Feb 2013)

The thing I was most shocked about was the number of women incarcerated for infanticide. Considering SIDS (Cot Death) is not a rare thing and that infant mortality rates were higher in the 1920’s to the 1950’s it is sickening to think that young women who had to go through the grief of losing a child were then faced with being blamed for killing that child. 
My own sister died at one and a half in the last 1970’s. I wonder if it had happened in the 1950’s would my mother have been shipped off to the laundry?   

What a heartless country Ireland was.


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## Firefly (6 Feb 2013)

There was a gentleman on the Last Word yesterday evening who told of his mother being sent to a child's home when she was 2 1/2 for begging on the street. She left there at 16 and was raped (the gent on the program was a result of this rape). Because of this she was sent off to the laundry until she was 32 I think and didn't see her son until some time after that when he tracked her down to England. She and others he met asked that he didn't tell their story until they had passed away as they were so ashamed of their history. It was and is so sad. All the while, government and religious institutions were either actively involved in this or turned a blind eye. The last laundry was only closed in 1996. 

We seem to be able to find money to pay for so many things in this country that we could do without, so I don't think anyone would begrudge these ladies the compensation they deserve. 

Firefly.


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## T McGibney (6 Feb 2013)

dereko1969 said:


> Presumably Revenue will now go after the orders looking for PRSI payments?



Sorry, I don't see the relevance of this point. PRSI hardly applies in respect of unpaid work? Do today's prisoners get PRSI credits for work done while incarcerated?


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## dereko1969 (6 Feb 2013)

T McGibney said:


> Sorry, I don't see the relevance of this point. PRSI hardly applies in respect of unpaid work? Do today's prisoners get PRSI credits for work done while incarcerated?


 
Part of the points being raised yesterday was the fact that unpaid work was done which was not recognised on a PRSI basis so the victims cannot qualify for contributory pensions, if the State is to be put on the hook for this then should the "employer" not cough up?


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## Teatime (6 Feb 2013)

I thought it very cowardly of Enda not to offer an official apology. Its the least he could have done. Don't even start me on the religious orders.


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## T McGibney (6 Feb 2013)

dereko1969 said:


> Part of the points being raised yesterday was the fact that unpaid work was done which was not recognised on a PRSI basis so the victims cannot qualify for contributory pensions, if the State is to be put on the hook for this then should the "employer" not cough up?



Sounds to me to be more a potential compensation issue than a PRSI issue, to be honest.


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## Guest105 (6 Feb 2013)

Teatime said:


> I thought it very cowardly of Enda not to offer an official apology. Its the least he could have done. Don't even start me on the religious orders.


 

I think the whole authoritarian regime that pervailed in Ireland during those years was horrendous.  We can only be thankful that the awful things Church and State did to our women and children is now past.  We must never forget their suffering and pain and I feel no money will ever compensate for the terrible things that happened to them.

Kenny should have apologised to the survivoors but we all know any admission of liability will leave the government open to being sued for compensation, money they  apparrently don't have at the moment. 

I think in time he will be forced into an apology, this saga is not going to go away anytime soon.


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## dereko1969 (6 Feb 2013)

cashier said:


> I think the whole authoritarian regime that pervailed in Ireland during those years was horrendous.* We can only be thankful that the awful things Church and State did to our women and children is now past*. We must never forget their suffering and pain and I feel no money will ever compensate for the terrible things that happened to them.
> 
> Kenny should have apologised to the survivoors but we all know any admission of liability will leave the government open to being sued for compensation, money they apparrently don't have at the moment.
> 
> I think in time he will be forced into an apology, this saga is not going to go away anytime soon.


 
I would be of the opinion that the death of Savita in Galway was caused by this, so wouldn't be of the opinion that this is now past.

Also the support given by religious groups to the parents in Roscommon who were abusing their children for years to take a High Court action to stop them being taken into care was pretty recent too.

They haven't gone away you know.....


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## Guest105 (6 Feb 2013)

dereko1969 said:


> I would be of the opinion that the death of Savita in Galway was caused by this, so wouldn't be of the opinion that this is now past.
> 
> Also the support given by religious groups to the parents in Roscommon who were abusing their children for years to take a High Court action to stop them being taken into care was pretty recent too.
> 
> They haven't gone away you know.....


 

Maybe I am gone too long, would hate to think that those attitudes are still pervailing.


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## Guest105 (6 Feb 2013)

The report says the eldest person to be incarcerated into the laundries was 89 years old, it beggars belief, who was resonsible for this?


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## T McGibney (6 Feb 2013)

dereko1969 said:


> I would be of the opinion that the death of Savita in Galway was caused by this, so wouldn't be of the opinion that this is now past.



As noted in this thread, the cause(s) of Savita's tragic death now seem clear as mud.  http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=171963

The reasons why another Indian native, Sligo resident Dhara Kivlehan, died in similar circumstances some two years earlier, also remain unresolved, but have failed to attract any public attention until last week. 

http://www.herald.ie/news/why-did-wife-die-after-our-baby-was-born-father-29043902.html

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Si...gnored-in-the-mainstream-media-189989071.html


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## Conan (6 Feb 2013)

There is no doubt an apology is due to all the Magdalene women, and I expect it will come. But what made me sick was Mary Lou brazenly seeking an apology one hour after the report was published when it took her party some 17 years to apologise for the murder of Sgt Gerry McCabe. I don't see Sinn Fein or the IRA proposing any compensation to the McCabe family or the others who they killed. 
When it comes to hypocrisy it's hard to beat SF.


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## Purple (6 Feb 2013)

Conan said:


> There is no doubt an apology is due to all the Magdalene women, and I expect it will come. But what made me sick was Mary Lou brazenly seeking an apology one hour after the report was published when it took her party some 17 years to apologise for the murder of Sgt Gerry McCabe. I don't see Sinn Fein or the IRA proposing any compensation to the McCabe family or the others who they killed.
> When it comes to hypocrisy it's hard to beat SF.



I'm sure Jean McConville would rather have been in a Magdalene laundry.


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## Vanilla (6 Feb 2013)

Of course not just the state and Church were to blame, society as a whole turning a blind eye were complicit, businesses who used the laundries, every family that left their daughter in there, their sister, their niece or cousin. 

I was horrified to hear a woman on the radio earlier talking about being put to work in a laundry at the age of 10: it's incredible to think how that child and others were just left there by so many people who must have known. 

Society was very different then, people were also incarcerated in mental institutions for being epileptic, or for any of a wide range of simple learning disabilities, for being deaf or mute, mental illlnesses or genetic disorders- thousands of people who could have led a happy, productive life in society. Women were treated like lepers for getting pregnant while the man involved was untouched. Even if it was rape.

More hypocrisy of the opposition parties now is also sickening, FF flatly denied the State had any involvement in the Magdelene Laundries just a few years ago, now baying for an apology.


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## Purple (6 Feb 2013)

I agree 100% Vanilla. I'd add postnatal depression to the list of reasons women were locked up, many for the rest of their lives.
Any society that treats 50% of their population as second class (at best) will never thrive and Ireland was a poorer place for being dominated and run by misogynistic old men.
Thankfully we have emerged from that dark place but there are still a few shadows lingering. It’s hard to believe that it was only 1993 when homosexuality was decriminalised.


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## Teatime (6 Feb 2013)

+1 Vanilla


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## gianni (6 Feb 2013)

NOAH said:


> the most heartless and disgusting performance I have ever seen by a so called human being.



I don't understand this statement ?? 

Are you suggesting that Enda Kenny isn't human ??


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## Vanilla (6 Feb 2013)

gianni said:


> I don't understand this statement ??
> 
> Are you suggesting that Enda Kenny isn't human ??


 
LOL, this reminds me of that tv series 'V' !


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## Betsy Og (7 Feb 2013)

Even now you'd wonder about how children, in particular, are being treated. Every year you hear the stats about how many children "in care" have died - now I dont want to sensationalise it, those "in care" are not necessarily in residential care or under the daily control of the HSE or whoever, but the fact remains that many children and teenagers are dying every year. Then you have the prison system, problems with St Pats - the "high walls" mentality to mental illness is only slowly changing - not helped by the tabloid 'crazed axed murderer' type headlines whenever they get half a chance.

So not time yet to be patting ourselves on the back - though there have been improvements and, given their record, the diminishing influence of religious orders on people in care must surely be seen as a positive.


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## T McGibney (7 Feb 2013)

Betsy Og said:


> So not time yet to be patting ourselves on the back - though there have been improvements and, given their record, *the diminishing influence of religious orders on people in care must surely be seen as a positive*.



Oddly enough, the steep declines in hygiene standards in hospital wards in recent times has been (perhaps unfairly) attributed to the fact that the nuns are no longer managing the wards.

Given the current state of the HSE and the Dickensian conditions in places like St Pats, St Ita's in Portrane (until recently) and Mountjoy Prison, you are correct that its rather premature to be patting ourselves on the back.


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## Betsy Og (7 Feb 2013)

T McGibney said:


> Oddly enough, the steep declines in hygiene standards in hospital wards in recent times has been (perhaps unfairly) attributed to the fact that the nuns are no longer managing the wards.


 
Yes, I've often heard that said, and also it must be said that when religious orders started out in healthcare and education they were probably the only option available at the time (as the State hadnt got it act together). However, in the laundy case, I dont think there was ever a good case for having them at all, and then the treatment was absolutely unchristian - which is the bit I can never get with these religious, all prayers and piety and no christian values going with it, just high on unquestioned power...... make you sick .....


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## Purple (7 Feb 2013)

The more I think about this the less I blame the religious orders.
What happened to the women and girls in these institutions was symptomatic of the society that existed at the time.
Does anyone seriously think that they would have been treated any better if the laundries, or another comparable institution, were run by the state with no church involvement? Just look at how young boys were treated in borstals during the same period.

Blaming religious orders somehow separates the problem from the rest of the country and allows us to pigeon-hole the problem away from any collective guilt or responsibility. The problem was much broader than that. I suppose the real question is how much society was influenced by the RC Church and how much the RC Church was just a reflection of society.


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## dereko1969 (7 Feb 2013)

Purple said:


> The more I think about this the less I blame the religious orders.
> *What happened to the women and girls in these institutions was symptomatic of the society that existed at the time.*
> Does anyone seriously think that they would have been treated any better if the laundries, or another comparable institution, were run by the state with no church involvement? Just look at how young boys were treated in borstals during the same period.
> 
> Blaming religious orders somehow separates the problem from the rest of the country and allows us to pigeon-hole the problem away from any collective guilt or responsibility. The problem was much broader than that. I suppose the real question is how much society was influenced by the RC Church and how much the RC Church was just a reflection of society.


 
I haven't read the report, but from what I've read (which isn't extensive) is it not the case that there weren't cases of physical or sexual abuse taking place? That is, it was the nature or cause of the incarceration rather than their treatment "inside" that was the problem.

And the "stigma" wasn't created by the religious orders solely it was a community reaction to those incarcerated, which of course, was fed in the first place by the religious orders..


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## Betsy Og (7 Feb 2013)

Purple said:


> how much society was influenced by the RC Church and how much the RC Church was just a reflection of society.


 
But look at more recent times, society moved on but the RC clearly didnt as evidenced by their attitude in dealing with these issues. Shouldnt the RC have been "a cut above" society in terms of christian dealings - sadly that would not appear to have been so.


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## NOAH (7 Feb 2013)

I can quote you how things were,  a 12 year old tells another 12 year old the facts of life, 12 year who was told tells their mum, mum complains to priest and 12 year old is sent away for 4 years.


a true story


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## dereko1969 (7 Feb 2013)

T McGibney said:


> As noted in this thread, the cause(s) of Savita's tragic death now seem clear as mud. http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=171963
> 
> The reasons why another Indian native, Sligo resident Dhara Kivlehan, died in similar circumstances some two years earlier, also remain unresolved, but have failed to attract any public attention until last week.
> 
> ...


 
I don't see how those cases are similar at all. The fact that there hasn't been a coroner's inquest in the first case is a disgrace in my opinion but the only common ground between the two cases are the nationality of the women who died.


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## T McGibney (7 Feb 2013)

dereko1969 said:


> I don't see how those cases are similar at all. The fact that there hasn't been a coroner's inquest in the first case is a disgrace in my opinion but the only common ground between the two cases are the nationality of the women who died.


...and the fact that both died of aggravated infections contracted in HSE maternity wards.


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## dereko1969 (7 Feb 2013)

T McGibney said:


> ...and the fact that both died of aggravated infections contracted in HSE maternity wards.


 
yes but how many other people have died from aggravated infections contracted in HSE maternity wards or other wards, the only link between the two is their nationality. 
The pathetic spin put on linking the two is insulting to the memory of both women.


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## T McGibney (7 Feb 2013)

dereko1969 said:


> yes but how many other people have died from aggravated infections contracted in HSE maternity wards or other wards,



Yes, it would be interesting to have this question answered by the HSE. If such deaths are indeed relatively commonplace in HSE maternity wards, this would cast a new light on the possible causes of Savita's tragic death. If they are rare, this would imply that the parallels between Savita's and Dhara's deaths are closer than you make out.


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## dereko1969 (8 Feb 2013)

T McGibney said:


> Yes, it would be interesting to have this question answered by the HSE. If such deaths are indeed relatively commonplace in HSE maternity wards, this would cast a new light on the possible causes of Savita's tragic death. If they are rare, this would imply that the parallels between Savita's and Dhara's deaths are closer than you make out.


 
You're clutching at straws here.

The second lady died as a result of an infection post operation (c-section)it would seem (scant detail in articles), savita died from infection caused it would seem by the refusal to perform an operation. 

How are they the same?


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## T McGibney (8 Feb 2013)

dereko1969 said:


> The second lady died as a result of an infection post operation (c-section)it would seem (scant detail in articles), savita died from infection caused it would seem by the refusal to perform an operation.



The facts of the Savita case are yet to be established and based on previously linked sources in the other LOS thread, now apppear more uncertain than ever. Until they are established, its perhaps best not to draw any premature conclusions. 

That said, I'm rather bemused by your self-proclaimed certainty that the circumstances of the Dhara and Savita tragedies are completely unrelated.


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## Sunny (8 Feb 2013)

Thread gone a bit off topic I think.


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## NOAH (8 Feb 2013)

as per usual


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## Delboy (8 Feb 2013)

Irish Times poll out tomorrow (carried out Monday and Tuesday so before the Promissory note deal) has FF as the biggest party in the state
It really is time to pack up and get out of this country...


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## blueband (9 Feb 2013)

no difference beween FG and FF, same middle of the road redundant policies, so it makes not a jot of which of them are in power!. the one thing missing in this country is choice.


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## Teatime (9 Feb 2013)

blueband said:


> no difference beween FG and FF, same middle of the road redundant policies, so it makes not a jot of which of them are in power!. the one thing missing in this country is choice.


 
Agree with that. I am very surprised a new party hasn't been formed in the past few years. FG and FF and even Labour are essentially the same and most of the politicians are short sighted and self serving. We need some visionary leaders but not sure our electoral system or electortae can make that happen.


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## Grizzly (10 Feb 2013)

Delboy said:


> It really is time to pack up and get out of this country...


 
I'm thinking of doing it just to get away from this awful weather.

I could never vote FF again and I cannot stand the current lot. However I will never vote for SF and some of the Independents that have been voted in are like something dragged through a wet weekend in Oxegen.


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## cork (11 Feb 2013)

blueband said:


> no difference beween FG and FF, same middle of the road redundant policies, so it makes not a jot of which of them are in power!. the one thing missing in this country is choice.



The differance was when this country was in the midst of financial uncertainty - FG / Labour made an array of false promises to win votes.

They then seem astonished that people have no time for them.


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## Kine (11 Feb 2013)

If I remember correctly SF have 18% and are almost twice as popular as Labour now?!

Worrying if they have _that_ much popularity...


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## Ceist Beag (11 Feb 2013)

cork said:


> The differance was when this country was in the midst of financial uncertainty - FG / Labour made an array of false promises to win votes.
> 
> They then seem astonished that people have no time for them.



Sorry cork, we all know you are a FFer but are you seriously saying that the difference between FG/Labour and FF is that FF didn't make false promises to win an election? 



Kine said:


> If I remember correctly SF have 18% and are almost twice as popular as Labour now?!
> 
> Worrying if they have _that_ much popularity...



They don't Kine. SF always show well in polls but history shows that they're lucky to get half that number of votes when it comes to election time. That said, FG and Labour got in last time around as much on the basis that a lot of people didn't want FF as on the basis that they wanted FG or Labour. The next election will be interesting in that now a lot of voters don't want any of them - and wouldn't go near SF either! Bit of a mess really! Now doubt FG will have some budgetary strategy in election year to try and get them over the line.


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