# Summons for speeding



## pattt (10 Nov 2006)

helllo 
I received a speeding ticket for speeding on naas rd, did not see signs as lots of trafic poor signage and I was caught although I did not realize I was speeding I thought I was in  an 80k zone , but I was not,I  was in 50 . 

Due to poor postal service , i received ticket late, I paid the fine , but gave wrong no on licence, by mistake. The fine was then increased to 140. I sent back the origional cheque(80) euro butit was returned and they wanted the late payment amount. I sent this back by registered letter explaing that I was being overcharged as, I could not be held responsible for poor postal sevice and that I should have 28 days from receipt of letter to pay fine. Anyway I got the summons the other day. I have a few Questions to ask as I have not been before a judge before.

1) The date of summons is six months and a day after the speeding photo
2) Surely speeding fine should be sent by registered post so as to insure delivery to correct person?
3) Poor signage on Naas Rd. If you are in centre lane with artics either side of you the speeding signs are tiny, do they fufil international rules relating to this?
4) Should I go in and tell Judge about poor postage or should I hire a solicitor?

Any advice on any of above would be greatly appreciated
Regards
Patt


----------



## mmclo (13 Nov 2006)

There are several posts on similar situations, general consensus seems to be it depends on the judge. There is also another set of posts about summonses.

My personal view, you do not need a solicitor, just politely tell your story. Not showing up on foot of a summons is high risk. The postal business could help if you can demonstrate it clearly. The fact that you have attempted to pay something should also help.

Be careful however...going to court and a conviction there will double your points and it doesn't seem like you can overturn the actual verdict, your dispute is about the sentencing. The court will take a strong line that it has no role in relation to points and the higher points rate applies AUTOMATICALLY on a conviction in ct.

This is a more complex area about peoples right to go to court etc. which eventaully will go to the supreme ct. but I recokon you don't want that. 

Probably best to contact prosecuting Gaurd or DPP (on the summons) and offer to pay the lot and avoid ct. due to the extra points. All parties should try to avoid court appearances according to the DPP.

NB this should not be construed as legal advice




pattt said:


> helllo
> i received a speedin ticket for speeding on naas rd,did not see signs as lots of trafic poor signage and I was caught although I did not realize I was speeding I thought I was in an 80k zone ,but I was not,I was in 50 .Due to poor postal service ,i received ticket late,I paid the fine ,but gave wrong no on licence,by mistake.The fine was then increased to 140.I sent back the origional cheque(80) euro butit was returned and they wanted the late payment amount.I sent this back by registered letter explaing that I was being overcharged as,I could not be held responsible for poor postal sevice and that I should have 28 days from receipt of letter to pay fine.Anyway I got the summons the other day.I have a few Questions to ask as I have not been before a judge before.
> 1) The date of summons is six months and a day after the speeding photo
> 2)Surely speeding fine should be sent by registered post so as to insure delivery to correct person?
> ...


----------



## pattt (13 Nov 2006)

Thanks for your reply,Is it still possible for me to pay the full fine I was under the impression that once the 56 days had past ,there was no option but to go to court
Regards
Pattt


----------



## baby_tooth (13 Nov 2006)

hi - from personal experience, had a very similar situation to yourself over a parking ticket that i tried to pay and wasn't processed on time and then i never received notification on this.

Knowing solicitor's and barristers got some free legal advice.

Re: postage, i thought exactly what you did, that if it wasn't received then not your fault, but alas its not the case. Doesn't have to come out by registered post. As you have gone past the payment time then there is no turning back the process.

You can try and contact the prosecuting guard and arranging to pay him and getting him to strike the case out, if this is the case make sure yourself or barrister (your solicitor should have one in the district court on that day to do a whole batch of representations) are in court that day to ensure that the guard or some guard asks for the summons to be stricken out. If they don't do this you can still be prosecuted in absenteeism, even if guard isn't there.

If guard wont do this, and that may be the case if the judge they are in front of looks unfavorably upon striking out the cases, then either argue your case or plead guilty.

I agree, that this system is absolutely ridiculous. I was told of a case by the solicitor that a girl they represent had to produce her license and insurance etc at the guard station which she did, but the guard forgot to take note of this and summons to do same was sent to her old rental address which she obviously didn't get. Got a court notice which also sent to ex rental address and she didn't turn up in court as didn't receive the summons.

Only went she passed her test and went to get her license did she find out that there was an endorsement on her license and she was off the road and uninsured. Not only that but the driving test she had just passed was considered null and void and the off the road restriction dates from the day she presented her license at county council offices in exchange for his full license.
And she now will have to prove all this at court at her own expense.


Moral of story, system is mad and ridiculous, make sure you try and contact the guard, talk to him and still turn up in court even if he tells you that he will get it stricken out.


----------



## mmclo (14 Nov 2006)

It all depends I think you can make an approach to the prosecuting Gaurd, It often even happens in the courtroom where somebody produces documents and the case is withdrawn. You will have to approach whoever is prosecuting Gaurd or DPP, Gaurd will often be named on the summons.


----------



## pattt (15 Nov 2006)

Thanks for that,I suppose my point is that I am acepting that I was speeding although ,I was unaware at time due to the madness of trafic at the mad cow roundabout and three laned highway leading into Dublin where signpost are tiny and speed reduces from 80 to 60 after roundabout ,but the question for all legal people who might be able to answer me is,
By refusing to pay the late amount for fine ,due to circumstances of postal diffuculties,I am admitting that I was speeding,but I am disputing methods of collection of fines?What are the chances of Judge being sypathetic to my view,I dont intend hiring a solicitor ,as I feel it is my duty to go into court and tell the the first human ie the Judge that I will meet regarding this fine the situation surrounding it.To Date I only met the guard who delivered the summons ,the rest has all been photographs i n post and letters,very 1984 ish I might add that I am living in rural area ,I dont drive a suked up car and usually drive the country roads arround where I live below speed limit 
regards pattt


----------



## Daffodil (16 Nov 2006)

I have a similar problem. Got speeding fine in May. I was guilty so sent off a cheque for €80 immediately. However I didn't have my driver's licence on my at the time and as it states on the offical form that "_it is strongly *recommended* you send a photocopy of your driver's licence with payment_" I took this to mean that it was just a recommendation and not an obligation. In order to stay within the 28 day period I just sent off my payment thinking that would be the end of it. Not so .....

A few days later everything was returned to me as I had not included a copy of my driving licence. I then made a photocopy of the licence and sent it off again.

It was once again returned to me stating that my fixed charge had not been made during the required 28-day period and therefore I had incurred an additional €40 fine.

I phoned Capel Street Garda station and spoke to a Garda who was very understanding and did agree this that this extra fine was unfair as I had submitted my first payment within the 28 day period. He informed me that An Post is dealing with all speeding fine payments and unfortunately there was nothing he could do. 

I was up against a brick wall so I decided to let the matter drop. I returned my completed fixed charge form (*for the 3rd time*); a copy of my licence (*for the 2nd time*); my €80 cheque (*for the 3rd time*) plus another cheque for €40. Hoping at this point that this was the end of the episode and that I could expect my receipt of payment in the post. 

I yet again received all documents back with a cover letter and handwritten note stating that “_only one cheque acceptable. Sorry_”. 

At stage I was totally frustrated. I have, as far as I am concerned, I followed the correct procedure but firstly due to the miswording on the form my payment was not accepted and then I was penalised as it was not processed in time. I am happy to pay the original €80 but feel that I am being unjustly penalised by the subsequent charge of €40. I finally sent a cover letter explaining why I felt I was being unfairly treated and enclosed the original cheque for €80 along with my fixed charge form and a copy of my driving licence.

I have now received a summons to appear in court in January. I am happy to stand up in front of the judge to defend myself but do you think I have a leg to stand on or will the judge come down hard on me for trying to challenge the Gardai.


----------



## finegan1 (16 Nov 2006)

Oh is this FOR REAL???  Yes I think you are in the right.  What a disastrous system.


----------



## rmelly (16 Nov 2006)

yes, it's clearly a disastrous system, but then again he was caught speeding...


----------



## mmclo (16 Nov 2006)

The system is certainly disastorous but a court conviction will automatically mean double the points, you have to weigh up the pros and cons of that. By sending the fine you were accepting the facts thus it would be near impossible to be found innocent in ct. So you are nearly certain to get 4 points. I think this is ridiculous and will be challenged some day.

NB This shoudlnot be construed as legal advice


----------



## bond-007 (16 Nov 2006)

pattt said:


> 1) The date of summons is six months and a day after the speeding photo


 
The summons *must* be dated within 6 months of the offence, otherwise they are in violation of the Petty Sessions (Ireland) Act 1882. 
This charge is non runner. You home and dry on this one, count yourself lucky.


----------



## pattt (17 Nov 2006)

bond-007 said:


> The summons *must* be dated within 6 months of the offence, otherwise they are in violation of the Petty Sessions (Ireland) Act 1882.
> This charge is non runner. You home and dry on this one, count yourself lucky.


 
Whats my next step,how do I get it struck out
Pattt


----------



## rmelly (17 Nov 2006)

does this not suggest otherwise?

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=41448&highlight=summons+date


----------



## mmclo (17 Nov 2006)

Need to be careful, showing up in ct. can validate the summons or the district court judge can still ammend it.

Not showing up may lead to arrest or conviction in absence.

The logic of your argument is the summons has been issued to late so in that way you shouldn't show up...but this is serious. I think the 6 month rule is set out in more recent legislation than 1882. On this basis you could not show up and quote that act in appeal or when they come with the cuffs!! Be very sure of your dates though. 

I would say there is no automaticity in any of this and if at all possible pay the fines and negostiate witht the Gaurd as that is the only way you have a gauruntee of the outcome.

NB This should no be construed as legal advice

from oasis

*The Summons*


Rules
*Information*

In Ireland, instead of arresting you to bring you to court, the Gardai (Irish police force) may serve you with a summons ordering you to appear in court on a particular date at a particular time. Summonses are issued by the District Court after a complaint has been made against you by a Garda. 
Usually, summonses are issued in less serious cases where it is not considered necessary to arrest you to guarantee your appearance in court. 

*Rules*

*Contents and Service of the Summons*

The summons must contain 

the name of the complainant or prosecutor (the Garda or the Director of Public Prosecutions)
your full correct first name and surname
your correct address, if known
details of the offence alleged, stated in ordinary language, including the time, date and place that offence was committed and a reference to the statute that has been breached
the command or requirement to attend court
the date, time and place of the court and
the signature of the issuing authority (i.e., the District Court Clerk or Judge).
Usually the summons will also contain the date the complaint was made to the District Court.
The Gardai may serve the summons on you by sending a copy of it by registered prepaid post. It may also be served by hand or left at your last known abode or place of work or with your spouse, child or other relative.
*Adjournments*

If you do not appear in court on the date stated in the summons, the District Court may either 

go ahead with the hearing in your absence or
decide to adjourn the matter. You will be notified of the new date for the hearing.
If, on the adjourned date, you have still failed to appear in court and the District Judge is satisfied you were given reasonable notice of the adjourned hearing, the court may 

issue a warrant for your arrest to bring you to court or
go ahead with the hearing in your absence.
There are certain rules as regards the time limitations for commencement of criminal proceedings . Generally, a complaint must be made within 6 months after the offence took place. 
If the offence is one that can be tried by a judge and jury (an "indictable offence"), there is no time period for the making of the complaint.

*Time limitations for the commencement of criminal proceedings*

*Information*

If the Gardai wish to charge you for a minor offence, they must make a "complaint" (in the District Court) within 6 months after the date the offence was committed.
Minor offences are tried summarily - i.e., by a District Court Judge sitting without a jury. When a Garda makes a complaint in the District Court, a summons will be served on you requiring you to go to court.
If the offence is not a minor offence, it will tried by a judge sitting with a jury. Generally, there is no time limit for prosecuting non-minor offences unless specific legislation provides one. 
However, if there is an excessively long delay in prosecuting an offence, the judge may decide not to hear the case. In making his or her decision, the judge will consider whether the delay has reduced your chances of a fair trial, for example, if the delay means that key witnesses are no longer available to give evidence or if the delay could have affected their memory of what happened


----------



## bond-007 (17 Nov 2006)

Summons must be issued within 6 months. Six months and a day is too late. Actually the only place the 6 month rule is mentioned is the 1882 act and this has not been repealed.


----------



## mmclo (18 Nov 2006)

6 months form the date of the offence, notice of the offence or the complaint?


----------



## bond-007 (18 Nov 2006)

6 months from the offence.


----------



## finegan1 (18 Nov 2006)

I think the guards have to apply for the summons within 6 months of the offence and then it can be served to you after that anytime.  

Have you got advice from a solicitor?  I'm in awe at the pathetic red tape and lack of ability to change deadlines.  Aren't the courts busy enough with real criminals?  For someone who has tried to pay a fine that many times - I would reckon the judge will throw this out of court.  If he doesn't he's an eegit.

What do you think will happen?


----------



## pattt (19 Nov 2006)

Dont know,I have not been up before a judge before,I would like to think that with the system we have in place in this country ,that I could go in and explain myself to judge ,pay origional fine of 80 euros and get 2 penalty points, and not get fined 4 or 500 euros with 4 penalty points.I would also love to go in and show him photos of rural roads where speed limit is 100 ,and there is grass growing in the middle of road ,speed signs obstucted by vegetation etc.I have been strongly advised against this by peolple in the know ,they say Judges are only interested in points of law,I looked at summons again and I see that it was applied for within 6 months of alleged offence,although it was issud months and a day after,however my name is spelt wrong so I will have to investigate this aspect.The name on summons is the english version of my name, which I never use ,but itis on the tax cert for car??,I think when I was Buying car the person who sold it to me put that name on change of ownership form,so any ideas on this one?.I have taxed car under this name but would never  and I mean never use this name  on Passport and driving lincence or any legal document 
regards Pattt


----------



## bond-007 (19 Nov 2006)

You are going to get nowhere with all of the above. 

Can you tell me via PM if you prefer, the date of the offence from the pictures , the date of the summons and the date of the complaint it may be referred to as the application date usually in the first line of the text.

I shall be able to advise you better then. Until then I think it is unwise to discuss it further in this thread. 

regards 
007


----------



## mmclo (20 Nov 2006)

I'm almost sure it is 6 months form the application not the offence but I can't find the exact reference at the moment. On this basis you must show up.


----------



## mmclo (20 Nov 2006)

It is clear from this (DPP (at the suit of Sergeant Emmett Treacy) v Thomas [2006] IEHC 284 ) that the complaint should be issued within 6 months of the alledged offence not the summons. The 1851 and the 1986 Act are the relevant ones.

***

The relevant earlier statutory provision is s. 10(4) of the Act of 1851, which provides _inter alia_ that:- 


_“In all cases under summary jurisdiction the complaint shall be made…within six months from the time when the cause of complaint shall have arisen but not otherwise.”_

The general rule is that, where summary offences are alleged, an application for a summons pursuant to the Act of 1986 must be made within six months from the date of the commission of the offence alleged. In _DPP v. Roche and Kelly_ [1990] 2 I.R. 526, the Supreme Court at p. 527 (confirmed that):- 


_“The effect of s. 1 subs. 7(a) of the Act of 1986 was to apply the six month time limit from the date of the alleged offences as provided by s. 10(4) of the Act of 1851 to the date of application for the summons.”_


----------



## bond-007 (20 Nov 2006)

Also I have learned by PM from Patt that the offence was in December and the complaint was made in April with the summons being issued in June. Based on that the complaint is valid as it is made within the six month period.


----------

