# what recession



## bizincork (3 Feb 2009)

ive been trying for 3 weeks to find someone to work on a roof , reslate, and some plastering, also to build a wall. Everyone is too busy , some never even turn up. Have tried the papers, friends, etc.

Where are all the out of work builders/ construction people who would bite the hand off you for work ??


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## Bunnyadden (3 Feb 2009)

I'm having the same problem with electricians in South Dublin.  Another one supposed to turn up tonight - won't hold my breath!


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## bizincork (3 Feb 2009)

wtf ?? I found it hard enough to get someone in the boom times, 2 years on, nothing has changed....


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## ney001 (3 Feb 2009)

bizincork said:


> ive been trying for 3 weeks to find someone to work on a roof , reslate, and some plastering, also to build a wall. Everyone is too busy , some never even turn up. Have tried the papers, friends, etc.
> 
> Where are all the out of work builders/ construction people who would bite the hand off you for work ??



highly recommend www.onlinetradesmen.com    I have used this numerous times and always received emails with a couple of hours and call out next day.  Found an excellent carpenter and plasterer via this website.


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## Padraigb (3 Feb 2009)

bizincork said:


> wtf ?? I found it hard enough to get someone in the boom times, 2 years on, nothing has changed....



Some things have changed:
- it's very easy to get a blocklayer, as the number of new builds has plummeted;
- many people in other trades who worked on new builds were immigrants, and have left;
- some craft workers concentrated on maintenance work and small jobs like extensions, and that market has not collapsed as much as that for new builds.


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## Caveat (3 Feb 2009)

I'd say some slightly better off folks who would previously have taken on Company X (renowned, well established, quality, higher end people) are maybe reevaluating and instead looking at the more cost effective options - and hence maybe some self employed guys are a little more in demand.


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## Willowchase (3 Feb 2009)

We are building a new house at the moment and contacted 5 window companies. Only three bothered to quote and one of those only after our second call to them. Then this company never bothered to get back to us when we tried to contact  them subsequently to discuss their quote. - What recession!!!


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## TomC (4 Feb 2009)

What I find even more frustrating is friends that have extraordinary high prices and won't even negoiate and assume that they are going to continue to get the boom prices. Some lads have no sense of business!!!


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## bamboozle (4 Feb 2009)

try onlinetradesmen or gumtree.ie for tradesmen, there's plenty of people hungry for the work.


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## baldyman27 (4 Feb 2009)

Two points here;

1. Good tradesmen are always busy

2. Some tradesmen (this is from experience) won't bother quoting if they know there are 4 or 5 others quoting aswell.

Formulating a quote for a job takes time, effort and money and lately some guys are quoting at below cost in order to get a job so that they can then add extras, etc. once they have it so they make money. People in the trade know this and often don't bother making the effort to quote as they know that some idiot will out-bid them.


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## rania (4 Feb 2009)

i have contacted onlinetradesmen,and we have not exactly been inundated with replies....


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## monalisa1 (5 Feb 2009)

You must have contacted the same window people as me.  No one has returned my calls and I just can't believe it.  I thought they would be biting the hand off me.  I have found the same problem with getting someone out to fix my alarm. All I get is ring me next week.


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## S.L.F (11 Feb 2009)

baldyman27 said:


> Some tradesmen (this is from experience) won't bother quoting if they know there are 4 or 5 others quoting aswell.
> 
> Formulating a quote for a job takes time, effort and money and lately some guys are quoting at below cost in order to get a job so that they can then add extras, etc. once they have it so they make money. People in the trade know this and often don't bother making the effort to quote as they know that some idiot will out-bid them.


 
I have this problem constantly.

I spend time and effort to get my prices right and then some yaahoo who does less than half the work gets the job.

I can normally tell in the first 10 minutes whether I have a job or not.


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## fitzie79 (11 Feb 2009)

i found the same thing when trying to get quotes for a house - had to constantly chase people to get prices. However, as mentioned above the good ones can be busy and are worth chasing.


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## baldyman27 (11 Feb 2009)

S.L.F said:


> I have this problem constantly.
> 
> I spend time and effort to get my prices right and then some yaahoo who does less than half the work gets the job.
> 
> I can normally tell in the first 10 minutes whether I have a job or not.


 
Its a nightmare, the amount of jobs I've taken time to quote for is ridiculous compared to what I actually get and I know my prices are fair.
Best of all are the other guys in the same trade who try to get you to price a job for them so they don't have to make the effort. Easy to spot though, they always want a detailed breakdown. Yeah right, give me the job first and then you get the breakdown.

Makes it bloody hard to be in the business. And the yahoo (nice, will use that description in future) who does get the job usually costs a lot more after adding in all his little extras and still, as S.L.F. mentioned, leaves half the work undone.

Rant over.


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## Willowchase (11 Feb 2009)

S.L.F said:


> I have this problem constantly.
> 
> I spend time and effort to get my prices right and then some yaahoo who does less than half the work gets the job.
> 
> I can normally tell in the first 10 minutes whether I have a job or not.



If one is not prepared to quote one is unlikely to get business so I would expect all firms to quote, or at least give an initial ballpark figure subject to detailed quote if client expresses an interest in following up. 

I for one am not interested in getting quotes from 'yahoos' but have been let down by several registered contractors, not to mention my window manufacturers.

I learnt my lesson re yahoos when I employed a relative of a friend some years ago, who came highly recommended - 'very tasty work' but he got fed up 2/3 way through and never finished the work and would not return calls.

Maybe if there were more female tradespeople they might me more conscientious!


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## Lorz (12 Feb 2009)

We're building at the moment and what we've found is that while we haven't necessarly saved a lot of money, we have been able to get good quality, professional tradesmen who presumably wouldn't have been available if we were building a year or 2 ago.  TBH prices haven't dropped as much as we would have expected - best price for plastering 3,100sq ft house €20k excl. supply of plasterboard but incl. labour for fitting it.  Roofer €20k labour - excl supply of natural slate, timber, etc.  But we are happy (so far!) with the quality work of all the people we've used.  

A few people never got back when requested to quote and I didn't call them begging for their price.  If they can't be bothered to quote, what hope have you of them doing the job and doing it properly!?!


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## PetrolHead (12 Feb 2009)

Willowchase said:


> ... I would expect all firms to quote...


 

Companies aren't there to offer a public service...

The previous poster is right... you can generally tell early on what the situation is with a potential customer... and that includes the attitude of the person you're dealing with... sometimes a job just ain't worth it... downturn or no downturn!!!


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## csirl (12 Feb 2009)

We were looking to place an IT contract recently with someone - wrote to 5 companies, only 2 bothered to reply and only 1 bothered to meet with us. Contract was for a fair sum of money. Obviously most of them dont need it.


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## S.L.F (13 Feb 2009)

baldyman27 said:


> Its a nightmare, the amount of jobs I've taken time to quote for is ridiculous compared to what I actually get and I know my prices are fair.
> Best of all are the other guys in the same trade who try to get you to price a job for them so they don't have to make the effort. Easy to spot though, they always want a detailed breakdown. Yeah right, give me the job first and then you get the breakdown.
> 
> Makes it bloody hard to be in the business. And the yahoo (nice, will use that description in future) who does get the job usually costs a lot more after adding in all his little extras and still, as S.L.F. mentioned, leaves half the work undone.
> ...


 
Your rant might be over but mine isn't

I spent 2 complete weekends working on drawings for a potential customer only for them to go with a competitor who does half the work but because they have a big name in the business and charge more than me they got it.

If they were going to waste my time I'd have preferred they told me out straight.

Now what happens is I call to people and give them a price on the spot.

I really hate breaking my prices down.

I had one man ask me to quote him for 4 awkward wardrobes, spray finish, custom handles, mirrors and plenty of drawers...the works.

I thought what I would do since he was getting so much done I'd give him a better price on the work I was doing as compared to the work I was subbing out.

I gave him his quote I think it was around €10,000 he asked me for a detailed breakdown of costs.

Per drawer, per handle, per mirror, cost of spraying, what have you

When I gave him the detailed breakdown of costs he said ok take away the spray finish I'll do that myself, we don't need that many drawers take most of them away, we are getting our own handles.....anyway you can see the picture.

So instead of asking for what he wanted, he asked for the big job then took away the extras and got himself a very good price. I didn't understand what he did at the time but I'll never forget it.

Beware Shark about!!!

If someone wants a detailed breakdown now I just give them what I do to get the job done but with no defining amounts.  



Willowchase said:


> Maybe if there were more female tradespeople they might me more conscientious!


 
Women don't make good tradesmen they're not able to handle the dirt on their high heels



Lorz said:


> A few people never got back when requested to quote and I didn't call them begging for their price. If they can't be bothered to quote, what hope have you of them doing the job and doing it properly!?!


 
They were probably too busy to quote



PetrolHead said:


> sometimes a job just ain't worth it... downturn or no downturn!!!


 
I can vouch for that statement


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## Bronte (13 Feb 2009)

S.L.F said:


> Women don't make good tradesmen they're not able to handle the dirt on their high heels


  There's no need for comments like that, some of us are well able to deal with dirt and better than many men.


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## Caveat (13 Feb 2009)

PetrolHead said:


> ... sometimes a job just ain't worth it... downturn or no downturn!!!


 
I'm not a tradesman but I've never really understood this.

Surely you just increase the price to cover whatever makes the job 'not worth it' ?!

If the job needs doing, it needs doing - they are presumably going to pay *someone* for the job - why not you?

We are in manufacturing and quite often get service or custom jobs that are a total pain and that ideally we would rather not do for one reason or another - but we absolutely *never* turn any business down - we just charge a premium to cover any extra time/inconvenience or whatever.


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## JP1234 (13 Feb 2009)

In the last couple of months we have:

 -had 4 tradesmen simply not bother turning up for pre-agreed appointments to service our boiler ( one of these did not turn up twice so in fact it is 5 appointments not kept!) 2 of these days were on Saturdays, _at their suggestion_ and 2 we had to each take a days leave to wait in...the other was a day I was off anyway but again was wasted sitting in waiting. 

-tried to buy an item of  sale furniture to be told it wasn't in stock and if we wanted to secure the sale price we had to pay in full there and then, then wait an unspecified time for it to arrive or order it in but pay the higher price later. They lost the sale.

-arrived at a pre-booked hotel to be told the room price was actually €30 higher, despite having an email confirmation of the price and the hotel's website still advertising rooms available for that night at the lower rate, only after much arguing did they agree to honour the original price but moved us to a smaller room!

So yes, I do have to wonder at times what these companies/people are thinking and how bad is it really they can still lose business or try to overcharge like the example above.


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## S.L.F (13 Feb 2009)

Bronte said:


> There's no need for comments like that, some of us are well able to deal with dirt and better than many men.


 
Bronte I'm not a sexist perhaps if you look at my post again you'll see a  smilie, this smilie is to show I was being sarcastic.



Bronte said:


> There's no need for comments like that, some of us are well able to deal with dirt and better than many men.


 
Funny really that all the really dirty jobs like plumbing, bin collection, KP, butchery, fishing, county council clean up crews are all most exclusively done by men.


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## S.L.F (13 Feb 2009)

Caveat said:


> I'm not a tradesman but I've never really understood this.
> 
> Surely you just increase the price to cover whatever makes the job 'not worth it' ?!
> 
> ...


 
I trust my instincts with people because it serves me well, the times I haven't listened to my gut have been the times when things go baaaaadley wrong and I end up out of pocket, temper and patience.

There are some people who are just not worth working for.


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## DavyJones (13 Feb 2009)

Caveat said:


> We are in manufacturing and quite often get service or custom jobs that are a total pain and that ideally we would rather not do for one reason or another - but we absolutely *never* turn any business down - we just charge a premium to cover any extra time/inconvenience or whatever.




Being a tradesperson is very different from manufacturing. You may meet the client a hand full of times over the course of the job,. A tradesperson will meet this person, maybe on a daily basis depending on job. Also in manufacturing you would probably deal with other business's, with this brings a formality. When you work for private people the rules are different.

With regard to pricing, not commuicating with potentail clients is a sure way of going out of business.  I spend a large amount of time quoting, and sometimes it is a pain esp when you know the client doesn't really understand a whole lot on the subject matter. They look at the bottom line and cheapest usually gets the nod.  Compare like with like.

A quote should be detailed outlining every thing one plans to do for price . If requested I will split the quote into labour and material cost,no part by part details.


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## Caveat (14 Feb 2009)

I understand what you are saying but TBH I still don't really get it.

There are ways around ill informed customers, pricing issues or customers who change their minds etc.

And what's wrong with breaking down a quote: X for materials + Y for doing the job - if it's an awful job or one you're not 100% confident about just charge Y x 2 - if you feel iffy about payment ask for half in advance...etc etc

OK, some people are just terminally awkward and you have to allow for that but it's just this idea of turning down work that I find bizarre I suppose.


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## S.L.F (14 Feb 2009)

Caveat said:


> There are ways around ill informed customers, pricing issues or customers who change their minds etc..


 
Yes but when you are trying to get this person to see sense you could have other customers who know exactly what is going on and will pay a fair rate and not whine or go on about things that are not important.



Caveat said:


> And what's wrong with breaking down a quote: X for materials + Y for doing the job - if it's an awful job or one you're not 100% confident about just charge Y x 2 - if you feel iffy about payment ask for half in advance...etc etc.


 
This is the whole crux.

You know this person is going to be a pain so why bother quoting for the job if you reckon he or she'll just go with a cheap quote.

Basically why waste time



Caveat said:


> OK, some people are just terminally awkward and you have to allow for that but it's just this idea of turning down work that I find bizarre I suppose.


 
It's not turning down work it's just not being bothered to quote people you are unsure of.

Over the years I have wasted so much time trying to get work from difficult customers, difficult about the job and difficult about paying at the end of it.

The ways around difficult customers all take time and effort, which is better spent working for people who appreciate our skills


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## PetrolHead (14 Feb 2009)

Caveat said:


> OK, some people are just terminally awkward and you have to allow for that but it's just this idea of turning down work that I find bizarre I suppose.


 

I recently told a customer to take their business elsewhere... (I got the impression they felt they needed to be an This post will be deleted if not edited to remove bad language with people to get anything done and that life was such a hassle and dealing with these sort of people just such a nightmare... you know the sort... nothing their fault and the world is against them...).

Anyway...

After much attitude and abuse from the (potential) customer while I was still only quoting it was arranged we would collect a deposit and take the final required measurments on site. We agreed to arrive between half past and the hour and duly turned up at XX:55... The customer, most put out that we were "late" informed us that the other company that came to quote that morning were on time... 

WTF???

Some jobs just aren't worth it... a previous poster mentions putting in a price to cover the hassle and difficulties involved... I've done this before... I call it an F.O. Price... I'll leave it for you to work this one out!

But sometimes... very infrequently... there comes along a person that you decide it is just not worth working for... 

Don't expect a tradesperson... or anyone you deal with for that matter... to bend over backwards and take it quietly just because you're holding the purse strings....

The customer is not always right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## rabbit (14 Feb 2009)

Re : "What recession"

I know several self employed tradesmen who say the only people who have any disposable income now -or can afford to pay - are the public service workers or employees in some of the big companies....the public sector are the only ones spending as they feel they have job security.


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## Purple (14 Feb 2009)

PetrolHead said:


> We agreed to arrive between half past and the hour and duly turned up at XX:55... The customer, most put out that we were "late" informed us that the other company that came to quote that morning were on time...
> 
> WTF???


 I quote jobs all the time, some quotes can take weeks. Unless I know that we cannot do the job I will always quote (I get less than 50% of what I quote on). I don't understand why anyone would refuse to quote unless they couldn't do the job or they felt that the customer could not pay.

As for turning up for a meeting 25 minutes late; I would call ahead and apologise for being late, giving a reason for the delay. I go to meetings on three continents and always make sure I am there on time. 5 minutes is OK, 25 minutes is very unprofessional.


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## S.L.F (14 Feb 2009)

PetrolHead said:


> The customer is not always right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


 
They call us for our expertise and then start to tell us how to do our jobs



rabbit said:


> Re : "What recession"
> 
> I know several self employed tradesmen who say the only people who have any disposable income now -or can afford to pay - are the public service workers or employees in some of the big companies....the public sector are the only ones spending as they feel they have job security.


 
You are obsessed with Public Service workers



Purple said:


> I quote jobs all the time, some quotes can take weeks. Unless I know that we cannot do the job I will always quote (I get less than 50% of what I quote on). I don't understand why anyone would refuse to quote unless they couldn't do the job or they felt that the customer could not pay.
> 
> As for turning up for a meeting 25 minutes late; I would call ahead and apologise for being late, giving a reason for the delay. I go to meetings on three continents and always make sure I am there on time. 5 minutes is OK, 25 minutes is very unprofessional.


 
Tell me Purple how long do your meetings last.

Most of mine last less than a half hour.

Most tradesmen are working from day to day not for weeks at a time, we have tight schedules, we can't top off to wait somewhere for a while so we can be on time.


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## Complainer (15 Feb 2009)

rabbit said:


> I know several self employed tradesmen who say the only people who have any disposable income now -or can afford to pay - are the public service workers or employees in some of the big companies....the public sector are the only ones spending as they feel they have job security.


You can tell the tradesmen that their last remaining customers will be disappearing shortly, if this unfair levy proceeds.


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## Purple (15 Feb 2009)

S.L.F said:


> Tell me Purple how long do your meetings last.
> 
> Most of mine last less than a half hour.


 I have often travelled to other countries for half hour meetings.


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## Purple (15 Feb 2009)

Complainer said:


> You can tell the tradesmen that their last remaining customers will be disappearing shortly, if this unfair levy proceeds.



I haven't heard about that levy, the only one I know about is the pension levy which is very fair.


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## PetrolHead (15 Feb 2009)

Purple said:


> As for turning up for a meeting 25 minutes late... 5 minutes is OK, 25 minutes is very unprofessional.


 

Did you read my post properly?????

And as for travelling to another country for a half hour meeting... have you ever heard of video conferencing??? I'm glad not everyone has your Carbon Footprint.


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## Purple (15 Feb 2009)

PetrolHead said:


> Did you read my post properly?????


No, I didn't. My apologies.



PetrolHead said:


> And as for travelling to another country for a half hour meeting... have you ever heard of video conferencing??? I'm glad not everyone has your Carbon Footprint.


Couls you quote a job over the phone/ on a video conference?
BTW, from first meeting to first job can take up to two years.


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## Bronte (16 Feb 2009)

S.L.F said:


> Bronte I'm not a sexist perhaps if you look at my post again you'll see a  smilie, this smilie is to show I was being sarcastic.
> 
> 
> 
> Funny really that all the really dirty jobs like plumbing, bin collection, KP, butchery, fishing, county council clean up crews are all most exclusively done by men.


 

I knew you were being sarcastic, nevertheless I made my post.  Men tend to do those jobs because they are more powerful physically.  I disagree that these are the really dirty jobs.


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