# The treatment of Lucinda Creighton



## Latrade (22 Jul 2010)

Sometimes you have to defend a TD (even when you don't ordinarily agree with them) and I just think the way Lucinda has been portrayed by the media and subsequently by her colleagues highlights just how bad politics and political commentary is here.

She's recently made a response to the media regarding her MacGill speech. Reading the speech I think her points are very valid. The media criticises "political fluff" and often tries to score points in a Paxman like way when politicians don't give absolute statements. But when they do speak absolutely and clearly, the media's all over it picking out two sentences out of a whole speech and indicating "another move against Enda Kenny". No wonder TDs don't give clear answers, they can't win.

I think Lucinda's speech is great, the bit about the donations makes perfect sense in the context of the whole thing, but she's absolutely right in her views on "the Party Line". But not a mention of that in the media.

Then her colleagues come out to defend FG, but they miss the point. She never said it was illegal, she never said it was corruption, she just said FG have to be careful in how it looks to be criticising FF for the Galway Tent politics and them inviting the same group of people to a day out at the K Club looking for money. What's wrong with saying that?

I'm more sick of the fluff coming out of the opposition and government, I want some clear, straight talk. Even if I don't agree with it, it's refreshing to hear and see. Her colleagues are knocking her for something she never actually said, they're essentially reacting to a media silly season storm rather than just saying, "you've taken her comments out of context" they defend the party and isolate her. 

The more this goes on I really think the original notions of Aristotle and the Aristocracy is right. This whole having to toe a party line, hooring yourself out for votes, it's part of the ruination of all democracies. We can't be trusted to vote in the right people and they can't be trusted to do the right thing because they're scared that we won't vote them back in. 

Time for a revolution, but against democracy and in favour of a tyrant.


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## pinkyBear (22 Jul 2010)

> Time for a revolution, but against democracy and in favour of a tyrant.


 It is rumered that Micheal Mc Dowell is throwing his hat into politics again would that count as revolutionary


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## DerKaiser (22 Jul 2010)

And the funny thing is that if FG were to go down the road of stamping out the hoorism they could capture the mood of the country and do very well out of it.  

In the absence of a new political party FG would be best placed to clean up politics after the next election with the number of fresh TDs they'll have.

FF will probably be focussed on safe seats and labour (more than any party) is too dominated by TDs in their mid to late 50s, the vast majority of whom have achieved nothing from their 20 years plus in politics.


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## Latrade (22 Jul 2010)

pinkyBear said:


> It is rumered that Micheal Mc Dowell is throwing his hat into politics again would that count as revolutionary


 
I'd be half tempted...afterall, what harm did pushing for low taxation do in the end?




DerKaiser said:


> And the funny thing is that if FG were to go down the road of stamping out the hoorism they could capture the mood of the country and do very well out of it.


 
I think that's at the heart of what Lucinda was saying, not only is this FGs chance to get into power, but also the best chance for honest change and reform. I think her concern is they're hoping to just get on the back of anti-FF rather than really presenting a shift in politics and politicians this country needs. 

As innocent and above board as it all may be, surely Enda can see how it looks to be treating anyone connect to property development to one of these events? I mean are they _that_ blind and out of touch? It's not on the scale of the Galway Tent (deceased), but c'mon the same developers they've classed as "bailed out" by NAMA. The same ones they've used against the government and then your invite them over for a round of golf and a few scoops?

This is why all outcries at expenses and all the other stuff is so quiet and limited, they really are as bad as each other.


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## Yorrick (22 Jul 2010)

Lucinda Creighton is completely out of her depth.  She has believed all that media rubbish about her being the "  FG fresh new face" " blonde bombshell" " Queen of Dublin four " rubbish.

She knows that she made a complete fool of herself in backing Bruton and that as a result she will not be in any ministerial position if FG make power.

Its all well and good playing the " holier than thou" card a bit like Gormley used do. It didnt take him long to relaise the dirty politics you have to play at constiuency level to survive


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## D8Lady (22 Jul 2010)

I think her comments are valid. 
If FF the Galway tent got us into this mess, what is FG doing in the K-club with the same group?

It looks bad and she called it. But she hasn't learned how to be discreet within her party. She was never going to be a minister, so she's nothing to lose by being honest. 

But I think women TDs overall are treated pretty badly by both parties and media.


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## Chocks away (22 Jul 2010)

Yorrick said:


> Lucinda Creighton is completely out of her depth. She has believed all that media rubbish about her being the " FG fresh new face" " blonde bombshell" " Queen of Dublin four " rubbish.
> 
> She knows that she made a complete fool of herself in backing Bruton and that as a result she will not be in any ministerial position if FG make power.
> 
> Its all well and good playing the " holier than thou" card a bit like Gormley used do. It didnt take him long to relaise the dirty politics you have to play at constiuency level to survive


She is a smart cookie. And she deserves backing. OK, you'll always get politicos sucking up to business people (however despicable) .......... but Kenny, in the light of his earlier outbursts, should have given this opportunity at the K a swerve. He doesn't think the way of the electorate ........ he just doesn't get it. Lucinda will be Ireland's answer to Thatcher - without the war-mongering.


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## pinkyBear (23 Jul 2010)

I wonder if she had put herself forward as well as bruton would she have gotten support? Would any of you see her as a viable leader of FG???


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## Latrade (23 Jul 2010)

pinkyBear said:


> I wonder if she had put herself forward as well as bruton would she have gotten support? Would any of you see her as a viable leader of FG???


 
Not viable just yet, but one for the near future in my opinion.


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## Ceist Beag (23 Jul 2010)

Chocks away said:


> Lucinda will be Ireland's answer to Thatcher - without the war-mongering.



 bit of a stretch there don't ye think? Maybe give her a chance to prove herself as a TD first, then a minister if she ever gets to be one before hailing her as the first female Taoiseach!!


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## Ceist Beag (23 Jul 2010)

Latrade said:


> Not viable just yet, but one for the near future in my opinion.



based on what Latrade? I agree with your points about the media reaction to her speech but lets not get carried away here!


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## Bill Struth (23 Jul 2010)

Chocks away said:


> Lucinda will be Ireland's answer to Thatcher
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Yorrick (23 Jul 2010)

Of course she is leader material. She has that smug holier than thou attitude beloved of the Blueshirts which is the main reason they cannot make a connection with the majority of Irish people.


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## Latrade (23 Jul 2010)

Ceist Beag said:


> based on what Latrade? I agree with your points about the media reaction to her speech but lets not get carried away here!


 
I still think she's a long way to go before proving herself and I wouldn't exactly agree with all she's ever said (as I'm not naturally inclined total FG politics). However, there's a difference in what she's saying and the fact that she's got the cahonies to say it. Let's face it, if she was a male TD saying that, we wouldn't have half of this, his hair colour wouldn't be an issue, his experience wouldn't be an issue and his choice of footwear wouldn't be an issue. But that's our wonderfully liberal and understanding voice of the people media for you.

Anyway, she's right on a few things and I think she's speaking to my generation and the generation(s) below me. All of FF and most of FG TDs are living in a different world. That way of rural/local politics, a wink and a nod, by hook or crook, attending funerals, K Club, Galway Tent, kissing up to the farmers and grannies we don't get it. We want leaders, not someone to have a pint with in the local. 

Parties are run like mini communist states, TDs are frightened of doing or saying anything for fear of their careers. What they don't realise is that it might, just might make their careers if they actually came out and said what they think. 

I've always had a respect for Lucinda, though not total agreement, but more recently since the Kenny challenge I've paid more attention. It's my generation who are hit the hardest by this shambolic state and yet hardly any of those TDs have a clue about my generation.

It's only a MacGill speech, it's only the silly season, but out of anyone else out there about how we progress, Lucinda is making the most sense to me. We've the chance to change and fix everything, not just the economy, but the whole political system. If the parties could get their heads out of the backward thinking of the "party faithful's" backsides, they'd realise that the majority of the country is just waiting for something ro someone fresh and relevant. 

I've just realised it's a long rambling response without answering the question. Honestly, I dunno, maybe she's a diamond among cut glass, or a stone among dung and so she's shining brighter than anyone else. I'll admit the Thatcher comparisson has put me off, I really don't see that. I do fear she could turn into another Harney though. Anyway, what makes a good leader? Is it policies? Is it content? I just think she's one a handful in each party that I feel if they were the party leader, I'd be more interested in what that party had to offer.


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## Staples (23 Jul 2010)

I don't think there's necessarily anything special about her. Political history is littered with people who've been "honest and brave" to "tell it as it should be" when they find themselves excluded from the inner circle but that doesn't make them enlightened - just bitter. They even do it in FF (e.g. John McGuinness).

She's paid the price for backing the wrong horse and faces an extended spell on the sidelines. Her career's upward trajectory has hit a ceiling and it hurts. I doubt she'd be as vocal if she had something to lose.  She's no better nor worse than any of the rest of them.


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## Complainer (28 Jul 2010)

Staples said:


> Political history is littered with people who've been "honest and brave" to "tell it as it should be" when they find themselves excluded from the inner circle but that doesn't make them enlightened - just bitter. They even do it in FF (e.g. John McGuinness).


Yeah, McGuinness was very brave in his talking out. Pity he wasn't so brave when it came to voting. He didn't walk the talk.



DerKaiser said:


> And the funny thing is that if FG were to go down the road of stamping out the hoorism they could capture the mood of the country and do very well out of it.


They might do very well out of it in the meeja, but they wouldn't do well out of it in the ballot box. Lots of voters still expect clientelism, and they punish those politicians that take a strategic view.


DerKaiser said:


> FF will probably be focussed on safe seats and labour (more than any  party) is too dominated by TDs in their mid to late 50s, the vast  majority of whom have achieved nothing from their 20 years plus in  politics.



There is a good few experienced Ministers in the Labour parlimentary party (Quinn, Rabitte, Howlin, Gilmore) all who had very specific and clear achievements from their last period in Govt, and some talented younger TDs too (Ciaran Lynch, Joanna Tuffy and others).


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## Sunny (28 Jul 2010)

Complainer said:


> There is a good few experienced Ministers in the Labour parlimentary party (Quinn, Rabitte, Howlin, Gilmore) all who had very specific and clear achievements from their last period in Govt, and some talented younger TDs too (Ciaran Lynch, Joanna Tuffy and others).


 
Were Gilmore and Rabitte even Ministers? I thought they were junior ministers. Trying to think of what Howlin achieved but at a loss. Ruiri Quinn is fair enough.


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## Complainer (28 Jul 2010)

Sunny said:


> Were Gilmore and Rabitte even Ministers? I thought  they were junior ministers.


Yep, both were Ministers of State.


Sunny said:


> Trying to think of what Howlin achieved but  at a loss.


Eliminated the need to have a doctor's perscription to buy a condom - largest ever new investment in disability services at the time - established the Dublin Docklands Authority (before it became a runaway train).


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## Purple (28 Jul 2010)

Complainer said:


> Yep, both were Ministers of State.


 So that's a no then, really.



Complainer said:


> Eliminated the need to have a doctor's perscription to buy a condom - largest ever new investment in disability services at the time - established the Dublin Docklands Authority (before it became a runaway train).


 He wasn't bad but he came across as a bit of a lightweight.


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## Chocks away (28 Jul 2010)

Bill Struth said:


> Chocks away said:
> 
> 
> > Lucinda will be Ireland's answer to Thatcher
> ...


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## oldtimer (28 Jul 2010)

Excuse my ignorance (and I hope this is not a rude question as Lucinda has a lot going for her), what is cojones?


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## Chocks away (28 Jul 2010)

Suffice to say that she is a spunky lady. Hey oldtimer, you can't be that old! Try GOOGLING it.


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## Purple (28 Jul 2010)

oldtimer said:


> Excuse my ignorance (and I hope this is not a rude question as Lucinda has a lot going for her), what is cojones?



They are something that she only has metaphorically.


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## Chocks away (28 Jul 2010)

Or metaphysically ontology


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## Latrade (29 Jul 2010)

Complainer said:


> There is a good few experienced Ministers in the Labour parlimentary party (Quinn, Rabitte, Howlin, Gilmore) all who had very specific and clear achievements from their last period in Govt, and some talented younger TDs too (Ciaran Lynch, Joanna Tuffy and others).


 
To some extent that raises another related issue, thinking of Rabitte in particular. Since he stepped down as leader, there's been a change in Pat, he's actually become pretty sensible and reasonable. I hear him now and wonder why he couldn't speak like that when he was leader. 

It does seem that party line politics (well a party _has_ to have an ethos) and commitment to the hardcore seems to hamstring the party leaders, yet when they're freed from that ball and chain, you see why they're good politicians in the first place.*



*obvious caveats are this doesn't apply to ex-FF leaders.


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## Shawady (29 Jul 2010)

Latrade said:


> To some extent that raises another related issue, thinking of Rabitte in particular. Since he stepped down as leader, there's been a change in Pat, he's actually become pretty sensible and reasonable. I hear him now and wonder why he couldn't speak like that when he was leader.
> 
> It does seem that party line politics (well a party _has_ to have an ethos) and commitment to the hardcore seems to hamstring the party leaders, yet when they're freed from that ball and chain, you see why they're good politicians in the first place.*
> 
> ...


 
Wasn't the same said of Michael Noonan when he became leader of Fine Gael?
It will be interesting to see how he performs as finance spokesman.


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## Complainer (29 Jul 2010)

Latrade said:


> To some extent that raises another related issue, thinking of Rabitte in particular. Since he stepped down as leader, there's been a change in Pat, he's actually become pretty sensible and reasonable. I hear him now and wonder why he couldn't speak like that when he was leader.
> 
> It does seem that party line politics (well a party _has_ to have an ethos) and commitment to the hardcore seems to hamstring the party leaders, yet when they're freed from that ball and chain, you see why they're good politicians in the first place.*





Shawady said:


> Wasn't the same said of Michael Noonan when he became leader of Fine Gael?
> It will be interesting to see how he performs as finance spokesman.


I can't say that I've noticed that big a different in Rabbitte, but maybe that's just me. I always felt that Rabbitte (and Noonan, and McDowell, and Cowen) are not natural leaders. They are the rottweilers that the natural leader should have as the no.2, ready to go out to battle on every issue. But they aren't leaders - they didn't bring people with them.


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## VOR (29 Jul 2010)

Complainer said:


> I always felt that Rabbitte (and Noonan, and McDowell, and Cowen) are not natural leaders. They are the rottweilers that the natural leader should have as the no.2, ready to go out to battle on every issue. But they aren't leaders - they didn't bring people with them.



+1 Complainer. All 4 were badly chosen to lead their parties when the party mistook public profile and almost war-like tendencies for leadership. 
To continue your canine theme. A leader should be like a loyal labrador; trustworthy, honest and appealing to the public. But the lab needs a rottweiler ready to growl and bite when needed.


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## Sunny (29 Jul 2010)

VOR said:


> +To continue your canine theme. A leader should be like a loyal labrador; trustworthy, honest and appealing to the public.


 
I would argue that they simply need to appeal to the public a la Bertie....

It's why Labour are doing so well compared to FG and FF. Gilmore simply has it worked out with the public. I have my doubts about him as Taoiseach (as I do with Kenny) but he is a brilliant politician.


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## oldtimer (29 Jul 2010)

Chocks away said:


> Suffice to say that she is a spunky lady. Hey oldtimer, you can't be that old! Try GOOGLING it.


 Just googled it. I understand what it means now. She certainly has that alright


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## Chocks away (29 Jul 2010)

oldtimer said:


> Just googled it. I understand what it means now. She certainly has that alright


Now, remove her photo that you have as a screensaver, act sensibly, get on with your life and try to get out a bit more


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## Chocks away (29 Jul 2010)

It's always the cute hoors (of all parties) that get the top job. In the amphitheatre wings of political life they wait as the gladiators go ape and blow their chances. Stand back, say very little of consequence, walk the tightrope, be Machiavellian whenever possible and tell people what they want to hear - but no more. It also helps to have (undiagnosed) psychopathical tendencies. Unfortunately, this is the way of the world


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## cork (30 Jul 2010)

I think that FG bottling it getting rid of Kenny was an error big time.

Gilmores inability to express an openion on the Croke Park deal is telling.

Bring back Michael McDowell - all is forgiven.


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## Complainer (30 Jul 2010)

cork said:


> Gilmores knowing when to keep his mouth shut on the Croke Park deal is telling.


Fixed that for ya.


cork said:


> Bring back Michael McDowell - all is forgiven.


Be careful what you wish for! [broken link removed]

For some reason, this thread came to mind when I read this definition of Irish politics from Stephen Kinsella's "Ireland in 2050" book (worth reading);



> The trend in global politics is towards carefully crafted political blandness coupled with fast approaching - and often completely unpredictable -outbursts of oddness, panic and scandal. Ireland's politics are no different.


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## Tinker Bell (31 Jul 2010)

If she wasn't up for the fight I doubt that she would have become embroiled in these issues. She will be around long after Enda retires to the Sunnyside Home For Gentlefolk. Providing mna na hEireann can shelve away their prejudices and keep backing one of their own.


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## DonKing (31 Jul 2010)

Complainer said:


> There is a good few experienced Ministers in the Labour parlimentary party (Quinn, Rabitte, Howlin, Gilmore) all who had very specific and clear achievements from their last period in Govt, and some talented younger TDs too (Ciaran Lynch, Joanna Tuffy and others).



I would agree with you on all of the above except for Tuffy. I think she's second rate. I saw her in the dail one evening and she had Rabbite and Stagg either side of her prompting her on what to say. I think it was on the day of the budget. She may have been ill-prepared but I was a bit surprised at her very poor performance.


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## DonKing (31 Jul 2010)

I tried to find her her budget day speech but obviously no one from the labour party would post that.

I found a speech on this webpage. Very poor for a rehearsed speech. I would have expected alot better for a career politician who has been around for so long. I know public speaking/media skills isn't necessarily a must have for politicians but it's what separates the ordinary from the exceptional 



http://www.labour.ie/joannatuffy/


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