# Grounds for Sec29 appeal to DoEd refusal to enrol into secondary school.



## Happy Girl (19 Nov 2010)

Has anybody any experience of Section29 appeals to the Dept of Education regarding inability to get a child into a particular secondary school.

My daughter has just been refused entry into a local secondary school where not alone I and my sisters attended (trouble-free I might add!) but she would be third generation. 

But anyway that is irrelevant because they changed their admissions policy two years ago whereby children of past pupils were removed from the list who would get automatic entry to the school. 

Those who get automatic entry are 
A: Children of current staff members 
B: Children from the same local religious organisation feeder school 
C: Children who have a sister in the school. 
D: Whatever places are left after that go into a drum and it is a "lottery". As names are drawn, places are allocated until such time that all places are gone. 

Unfortunately ours was not drawn within the numbers for available places. 

I am considering a Section 29 appeal as I have no other school place but am also hesitant as I dont have what I would consider very strong grounds for appeal but I am totally desperate. I also dont want to risk scuppering any tiny tiny chance I still might have of getting the place if I beg from now until September 2011. 

Has anybody any experience as to what would be considered strong grounds by the department in such a case?


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## rustbucket (20 Nov 2010)

Im no expert but I think you can only appeal if there has been a specific reason for refusal. In your case it appears that your daughter lost out on a lottery system.

I may be wrong but think you can only appeal if your child has been refused on particular grounds such as past disciplinary issues or specific difficulties.

Your first port of call should be to appeal to the board of management and the principal to lay out your case. Explain that you have no other options in your area and explain that you and your sisters are both past pupils etc. 

The school have a right to change their admissions policy and they generally jump through all the right hoops to do  do things like that.

I would say that unless you can say that their policy is unfair against your daughter or that you have been discriminated against in some way or another you may not have much of an  argument.

You could always check with the department of education as to your right to appeal or check with your local citizens information office.

If you believe it to be unfair and you genuinely have no other options Do speak to the principal and try to come to some resolution that way first.

Best of luck


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## PaddyBloggit (20 Nov 2010)

It looks like they followed their enrolment policy to a tee.

I don't think your appeal would have any chance of succeeding.


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## Happy Girl (21 Nov 2010)

Thank you very much for both of your replies. I think you both reiterated what I was thinking myself. I have already appealed to the Principal and Board of Management and was advised that "all procedures were followed" in the selection procedure. As i already said i cannot in any way say that they did not follow their own procedures to the letter of the law. My only fear is that a number of other parents are definitely appealing to the Dept on the same weak grounds as mine. I have been told that the school has never allowed a judgement to proceed against it and that a place has always been found at the last moment. What I risk is that if I appeal and am unsuccessful I may have "affected" any possible slim shance my daughter has to get in and if I dont appeal other parents will and may get a place purely because the school dont want an appeal to proceed. Damned if I do, damned if I dont! Any views on that.


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## PaddyBloggit (21 Nov 2010)

Go with your gut ... and be happy with your decision and the outcome.


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## mohawk (12 Jan 2011)

Any update on this Happy Girl? I have a son in much the same boat and he is now on a waiting list.


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## fizzelina (12 Jan 2011)

Can you offer to make a donation to the school hall or something along those lines?


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## PaddyBloggit (12 Jan 2011)

I don't think a bribe would count as part of enrolment selection criteria.

Imagine the uproar from other failed applicants if they heard a brown envelope got Johnny/Mary into the school with a warm, welcoming smile from the Principal!


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## Happy Girl (14 Feb 2011)

mohawk said:


> Any update on this Happy Girl? I have a son in much the same boat and he is now on a waiting list.


 
Just got letter back last week following the section 29 Appeal on 13th Jan last. We were unsuccessful in our appeal. I felt we had a great case as we had unearthed a number of issues regarding enrolment that we were not aware of originally. The appeal took 2&half hours and the school representatives were grilled to the last about policy. However we did not win the case. My understanding is that the Appeals committee will only check that the school followed its own enrolment policy correctly - which we never disputed. However what we were arguing was that their enrolment policy was discriminatory towards us (wont bore everybody with all the details here). None of the other 4 parents who took the section 29 against the same school were successful either. Without doubt it has been the most stressful 3 months of our lives so far. Mohawk you are more than welcome to PM me if you are taking the section 29 and anything I can help you with I certainly will.


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## gordo (17 Apr 2011)

Hi I am in the process of applying for a  section 29 appeal on the grounds of non admission to a secondary school because of a lottery system which we were not aware of any help or advice would be appreciated ,thank you


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## Happy Girl (17 Apr 2011)

gordo said:


> Hi I am in the process of applying for a section 29 appeal on the grounds of non admission to a secondary school because of a lottery system which we were not aware of any help or advice would be appreciated ,thank you


 
Gordo can you post a little more information if you can. Is the process of the "lottery system" not clearly outlined in the schools admission policy details. If it is you will find it very very difficult to win a Section 29 Appeal. From my own experience of Section 29s over the past 6 months of eating, drinking and sleeping it - I would stress that the role of the Section 29 Committee is to ensure that the school followed its own guidelines for enrolment to the school. It does not (as I naievely believed) examine those guidelines to examine the fairness of them. Each school is within its rights of setting its own enrolment admission policies (provided of course that they conform to the Equality legislation currently in force). The appeals committee just double checks that it has done so. PM me for any other information that I can provide for you.


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## austria2 (17 Apr 2011)

Sorry you are so disappointed, what are you going to do now? Is there no other school within reach? 
I think your child most of all needs to be given a positive attitude of hope and good will towards whatever school he/she goes to; how your child does as regards education largely depends on the work put in, and the family attitude and involvement.
 I've a load of experience of teens and families and believe me the actual school doesnt matter in the end.


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## thesimpsons (18 Apr 2011)

we went through the exact same system a number of years ago and I sympathise with anyone going through the ordeal of the whole thing. We were one of a number of parents who took Section 29s in the same year against the same school. Each one of us lost our appeal even though the school was told to tighten up its policy for the future. Majority of appeals centered on the lottery system and its openness as it was not witnessed by anyone and could not be verified, and there was no proof of randomness of selection, etc. Since then alot of schools have had their policies checked by legal people to ensure they are watertight.

I agree to some extent that the actual school might not matter but it can and does shape your future, your subject choices, your friends, your ability to be good in a particular field of say music, art, sports, etc. We felt it was important to fight for our child to avail of the opportunities the chosen school could provide. We also felt it was our duty to see that fair play was followed and that it was seen to be followed. The school hadn't followed fairly and it was well known for enroling the children of "who knows who". It now at least has a more open policy and appears to be much fairer in the selection of its pupils.

I wish you luck in your appeal Gordo and I can only hope that it works out well in the end for you and your daughter Happy Girl.


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## csirl (18 Apr 2011)

There are 2 possible grounds of appeal that might be open to some people. First is to challenge the whole admissions policy - that the use of the lottery on the basis that there are other fair and objective criteria a school would reasonably be expected to use before resorting to lottery e.g. distance from school, whether in catchment area for other similar schools, 

Another way may be to challenge the schools verification of the rules - are they e.g. checking that the addresses of applicants are genuine? There is a big problem in my area whereby a lot people who were born in the area, but no longer live here, use their parents addresses to apply for school places as one of the local schools is considered to be very good.


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## gordo (19 Apr 2011)

The schools admission procedure  was outlined in  their admission policy, however we did not receive any information regarding this until Jan 2011, when we were informed about the open night for students. 

We applied to the school in 2008 and during that time we never received any info on the procedure even though we visited the school on 4 different occasions with enrolment forms etc.. 

Also there is no mention of the lottery system on the web site of the school, any help or info would be greatly appreciated.


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## Complainer (19 Apr 2011)

csirl said:


> Another way may be to challenge the schools verification of the rules - are they e.g. checking that the addresses of applicants are genuine? There is a big problem in my area whereby a lot people who were born in the area, but no longer live here, use their parents addresses to apply for school places as one of the local schools is considered to be very good.


THis happens a lot. It also takes away from the community basis of the school, as the kids who travel long distances tend to be less involved in after school activities and even the social activities.


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## thesimpsons (20 Apr 2011)

I know of a case in the UK where a school said the students needed to live within a certain distance of the school.  An appeal was taken by one student on the basis that it didn't specify if it was "as the crow flies" or road distance or from what starting point.  The student won the appeal on the basis that he was within the required distance from the back gates of the school but not the main front gates.


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## ajapale (30 Apr 2011)

Complainer said:


> This happens a lot.



Yes, but living within a particular catchment area is not one of the criteria set out by the secondary school in question by the OP. I know that catchment area is a big deal in the UK and perhaps in Ireland it is Dublin/Cork thing (Im not sure)?



Happy Girl said:


> Those who get automatic entry are
> A: Children of current staff members
> B: Children from the same local religious organisation feeder school
> C: Children who have a sister in the school.
> D: Whatever places are left after that go into a drum and it is a  "lottery". As names are drawn, places are allocated until such time that  all places are gone.






gordo said:


> we were not made aware of changes to admission policy



Is a failure of the school to make parents of prospective students aware of the changes to the admission policy a grounds for appeal?


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## Happy Girl (3 May 2011)

ajapale said:


> Is a failure of the school to make parents of prospective students aware of the changes to the admission policy a grounds for appeal?


 
I raised this issue at our Section29 appeal. If you received a copy of the school's admissions policy which they subsequently followed then the school are well covered. They do not need to specifically highlight any part of the procedure which has changed from the previous year. Again I would stress that the role of the Section 29 appeal is to ensure that the school followed its own enrolment procedure to the letter of the law. It's role is not to said whether that enrolment policy is fair or not. It will only ensure that the enrolment policy is non discriminatory and most schools cover themselves well when drawing up their policies.


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## AlbacoreA (4 May 2011)

It seems the only law is that they have to adhere to their own admissions policy. 

Our local school has changed its catchment, and we were in the catchment for the last 10+yrs, but are now effectively excluded from it. But it seems there nothing we can do about it. They are also removing the "length of residency" criteria as its discriminatory apparently, to new residents. Seem to be discriminatory to longer term residents, and it makes it impossible to plan where to live, or indeed buy anywhere if you have no idea what the school situation will be like. Once you buy and put down roots, it may be impossible to move.


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## csirl (4 May 2011)

> Originally Posted by *Happy Girl* http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?p=1106812#post1106812
> _Those who get automatic entry are _
> _A: Children of current staff members _
> _B: Children from the same local religious organisation feeder school _
> ...


 

_I would consider the above policy to be unfair. It makes no distinction between kids who are living in the area where this is their local school and kids who may be living a long distance from the school who have other options in their own areas. Essentially they are saying that a kid who lives 30 miles away has the same chance of getting in to the school as one who lives 30yds away. _


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## AlbacoreA (4 May 2011)

Its fair to the child 30 miles away? Is there any rule/statute about getting priority in a closer school? I don't think so.


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## csirl (4 May 2011)

AlbacoreA said:


> Its fair to the child 30 miles away? Is there any rule/statute about getting priority in a closer school? I don't think so.


 
I assume schools who participate in the state funded free education scheme must adhere to some rules or guidelines. I would be very surprised if there wasnt some rule or guideline obligating them to be of benefit to the local community. An admissions policy may be invalid if it is contrary to the overall conditions of participation in the free education scheme or any other funding conditions that the school is under e.g. in return for capital investment by the state.


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## csirl (4 May 2011)

Found it

Under Section 15(f) of the Education Act 1998, a schools Board of Management has a statutory obligation to have regard to the community served by the school etc. - extract below:

_"(f) *have regard to* the efficient use of resources (and, in particular, the efficient use of grants provided under __section 12__ ), the public interest in the affairs of the school and accountability to students, their parents, the patron, staff and *the community served by the school*, and"_


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## AlbacoreA (4 May 2011)

Interesting. Though it could be argued that 30 miles is the community served by the school.


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## csirl (4 May 2011)

AlbacoreA said:


> Interesting. Though it could be argued that 30 miles is the community served by the school.


 
Your correct - in some remote parts of the country where there is a very low population density and very few schools, this argument could be made. However, for 90% plus of the country, it would be a much smaller distance - possibly even less than 1 mile in parts of Dublin in the case of catholic schools as the catchment areas couldnt really overlap that much with those of other catholic schools nearby.


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## AlbacoreA (4 May 2011)

In my specific case the two schools are close within probably a mile of each other. But separated by a natural boundary, and they've decided one estate has to go across the physical boundary, with other areas not connected to it. The estates and community actually connected to this estate go to the other school. Which if all well and good, unless your kids are being separated from  their peers in the community and perhaps other family in the same  community.

The reason for the split, being if they drop the length of residency rules they can't cater for the numbers that are then eligible in the existing catchment. The reason for dropping length of residency criteria is to avoid any claim of discrimination due to lack of "diversity" in the existing population vs new population in the area. 

 Of course the solution is simply to move, rent or otherwise in the new catchment, since length of residency is no longer a bar, if you've money to do that.


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## dereko1969 (4 May 2011)

csirl said:


> Found it
> 
> Under Section 15(f) of the Education Act 1998, a schools Board of Management has a statutory obligation to have regard to the community served by the school etc. - extract below:
> 
> _"(f) *have regard to* the efficient use of resources (and, in particular, the efficient use of grants provided under __section 12__ ), the public interest in the affairs of the school and accountability to students, their parents, the patron, staff and *the community served by the school*, and"_


 
This is a very weak and, in my opinion, unenforceable section. 
"Have regard to" doesn't mean much and then the "community served by the school" doesn't necessarily mean *location*, it can mean families, religious ethos etc it's way too broad. It's typical wishy-washy legislation that is basically a godsend to the legal profession, no-one else will benefit from that section.


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## AlbacoreA (4 May 2011)

The problem is schools aren't always built in the right place, center of their catchment. So the community it serves might not be a clean circle from the school. Thus distance to the school doesn't always define the catchment, or the community it serves. This is partly down to planning, schools often are put where space is available, where developers don't want, rather than compulsorily purchased center of the catchment to serve the community.As a result these enrollment policies are a nightmare, as catchment change as they are allowed to overdevelop areas and overload existing schools and resources.


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## niceoneted (4 May 2011)

If you really want to get your child into a specific that is near but you fall outside the categories/policies of the school, would it be worthwhile to rent a property for 6 mts there if it will enable you to get it. This may be beneficial in the long run esp if there are other younger syblings to follow along.


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## ajapale (4 May 2011)

niceoneted said:


> to rent a property for 6 mts


 
No, because as pointed out above most schools in this juristiction (including the OP's school) do not operate a catchement area policy.


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## csirl (4 May 2011)

ajapale said:


> No, because as pointed out above most schools in this juristiction (including the OP's school) do not operate a catchement area policy.


 
Not sure about this. Most of the schools in my area do operate a catchment area - usually defined as the parish the school is located on, or in the case of the bigger schools, 2-3 local parishes. I expect that due to the requirements of the Education Act, most schools are like this - have some sort of defined catchment area. The school referred to by the OP may be atypical in not having an area and this may be contrary to the Education Act.


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## ajapale (4 May 2011)

csirl said:


> The school referred to by the OP may be atypical in not having an area.


 
Hi Csirl,

Are you talking about seconday schools here?

I have seen this "boiler plate" policy operated by several large secondary schools in the West and South of the country.

Outside the very large cities secondary schools typically accept students very large geographical areas.


aj


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## AlbacoreA (4 May 2011)

You can't plan around changes in enrollment policies. 

We've been completely wrong footed by the change in ours.


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## JoeB (4 May 2011)

Happy Girl said:


> ...  It does not (as I naievely believed) examine those guidelines to examine the fairness of them. Each school is within its rights of setting its own enrolment admission policies (provided of course that they conform to the Equality legislation currently in force). ....



Giving a preference to a child of a particular religious background is against the equality law is it not? 

As are the other priorities you gave. Child of a teacher, is this not unfair? That's discrimination on the basis of who your parents are, as is the sister one.


I believe that if any of those reasons were given in a job recruitment process then they'd be in breach of equality legislation.


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## AlbacoreA (4 May 2011)

This is kinda interesting...



> ...
> *Admissions - Procedure for Entry *
> The right of admission rests with the Headmaster acting on  behalf of the Board. A parent may make an appeal to the Board if he/she  feels that a decision has been unfair.
> *Previous family connectons - sons/grandsons of pastmen; younger brothers.*
> ...



Its only an extract from the full details. Read the link to put it in context.


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## csirl (4 May 2011)

ajapale said:


> Hi Csirl,
> 
> Are you talking about seconday schools here?
> 
> ...


 
The legislation covers all types of public education system schools, so would include secondary.

The OPs situation is that her child is not being enrolled in a school that is close to where she lives. It would be difficult for them to argue that the child is not within the community the school serves. For children living a long way away, there is scope for arguing that the children are not part of the community (and so have no 'automatic' right to attend the school, but may be accepted if spaces available). 

The OP is looking for suggestions on how to appeal the refusal - if it were me, I'd appeal on the basis that the admissions policy is invalid as it does not have any regard to the community the school is located in. This may force the school to introduce a defined catchment area which, as the OP is close by, would significantly increase her chances of having her child enrolled.


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## ajapale (4 May 2011)

Thanks csirl, I think I understand the point you are making now.

I know in Limerick City they operate a unique type of CAO enrollment policy for secondary schools.

aj


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## ajapale (5 May 2011)

Tangential discussion concerning religion split to here: School enrolment forms asking for Religion of Child (split from sec 29 Q)

Can we keep this thread to discuss grounds for sec 29 appeals relating to enrollment to post primary schools.

Grounds for Sec29 appeal to DoEd refusal to enrol into secondary school.


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## Happy Girl (11 Oct 2011)

Happy Girl said:


> Has anybody any experience of Section29 appeals to the Dept of Education regarding inability to get a child into a particular secondary school.
> 
> My daughter has just been refused entry into a local secondary school where not alone I and my sisters attended (trouble-free I might add!) but she would be third generation.
> 
> ...


 
Just by way of update here. 

Eventually another secondary school in the town accepted a late application from us and "out of respect for us being natives of the town" gave us a place. We were and will continue to be very grateful to this school and my daughter has settled in fantastically so all worked out well. 

The reason I update here is that the other school to which we applied originally had its open night for entry to their school in Sept 12 last night and their enrolment policy has reverted back to automatic entry of children of past pupils. 

I feel so angry that we just happened to be seeking entry the one year that this policy was done away with. I asked last year if I kept my daughter back a year would I get a place and was told there was no guarantee. 

Do any of the "legal eagles" out there see any ground for indirect age discrimination ie all 11-12 year old children of past pupils were discriminated against last year - they were not the previous year or indeed this year?


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## ajapale (12 Oct 2011)

HappyGirl,

Its good to see that it all worked out for your daughter and her new secondary school.

My view is that the 1st school by chopping and changing the rules and not informing prospective students of the policy in good time is not acting fairly, transparently aor professionally.

I think that decisions made by the school on the basis of poorly communicated "chop and change" policy is wide open to challenge by parents of parents who feel they are the victims of such mal administration.

aj


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## beolight (5 Nov 2017)

Looking for some advise on this

My childs primary school is not a feeder A school for any of the local secondary schools , the nearest schools ( 2 of them and the primary school is in the feeder b list) which are circa 8 to 10 km from our house have all wrote back saying no place as they are oversubscribed and now we have to go on their waiting list. We applied to other schools much further away and no places have been offered

I don’t think think we have any choice now but to peruse a section 29 appeal to the 2 nearest schools. 

This is the preferred schools admission policy  
1: Children with brother or sister in the School
2: Children from feeder A Schools whose parents are in the catchment area
3: Children who’s parents live in the catchment area
4: Children from feeder A Schools
5: Children from feeder B Schools
6: All other applicants

We are not in the catchment area despite being 8km from the School so my child is only in number 5

From my understanding this appeal must be made within 30 days but I am unclear as to whether this 30 days starts from the first round offers or not, as I would not like to wait until the waiting list options is exhausted to be then told I didn’t appeal in time

We can dispute why are location isn’t in the catchment area as other locations which are nearly 20km away from the School are in it. 
We can also raise the question as to why our child’s primary school isn’t a feeder A school given its closeness
I understand why siblings get preference but if the child applying is the eldest what hope have they ?

Any advise or clarification on what is the best route to follow would be greatly appreciated


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## POC (6 Nov 2017)

Catchment areas are often based on parish boundaries.
Your child is in Category 5. Did everyone in Category 4 get a place? Did anyone in Category 5 get a place? Was there a lottery for places within Category 5? Is your child on a waiting list?

In my experience in Dublin, kids who are high on a waiting list often get in. Some kids will be offered more than one place, and as they choose which one to take, they release a place in another. 

I can't advise you what to do regarding an appeal - but it's worth gathering as much information as you can.
Parents of older children in your area might have information about what happened in previous years.


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## Brendan Burgess (6 Nov 2017)

What do the parents of other children in your primary school do?   Do they qualify under one of the other criteria? 

Can the school management not do anything about it? 

Brendan


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## beolight (6 Nov 2017)

Thanks for the replies

The 2 schools had their application process and allocation of places completed last week. Both schools wrote saying they are oversubscribed ,one automatically put my child on waiting list with a number in the late thirties, the other sent a form to fill out to indicate if you wanted to be put on the waiting list. This form was filled in and returned to the school,this is the school we would prefer.

Upon further investigation it seems that all the other feeder b schools on the list for our preferred school are located in the catchment area, so effectively Children from my child’s school are really category 6. I can’t see a natural parish boundary they seem to have just used the roads as the boundary. 

Parents from previous years it seems have had no problem securing places in these schools and of course some would of had older siblings. My child’s school is very small with no more than 60 pupils in the entire school, 6th class this year has 9 pupils, I dont know for sure their current status.

I will be contacting school principal today but I’m sure I will be greeted with the usual shrug of the shoulders apologetic look, good idea to contact the BOM but not sure how they can do anything at this stage. We did think it was strange when we checked with school when we enrolled about secondary schools schools that they weren’t a feeder school but they assured we wouldn’t have a problem securing place in local secondary schools

There is schools further away but I’m sure we have now missed the deadline for applications with these schools. What else as a parent are we able to do?


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## cremeegg (6 Nov 2017)

Ask the principal of the preferred school, what he or she suggests you child do now.

Contact your local education and welfare officer.

Contact your all your local politicians.

I did this some years ago for my child and one local politician took up the case, arranged meetings etc. 

It would seem that every kid in your primary school is likely to be affected, and possibly in coming years. Very attractive for a politician.


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