# Solicitor Fees too high ?



## Kano (4 Dec 2008)

I had a small matter to be dealt with by my solicitor lately the bill for which I received today and frankly I am shocked by the cost.

I went to see him for advice regarding a letter I had received from a third party who were threatening litigation against me.
It was an unfounded allegation and initially I was just going to ignore it but just to be safe I arranged to meet my solicitor.

I met him for 40 minutes and discussed the matter ,I had done my research well and I had prepared all the information he may have needed .
He told me he was going to send them a letter denying the allegation ,which we co drafted,it was a pretty basic letter and a trivial matter .

I thought that would be the end of the matter .
After my solicitor sent the letter ,the other party replied back and my solicitor sent them another letter unknown to me .
I only found out about this a few weeks afterwards.
It was a pretty decent letter but slightly inflammatory.

I rang my solicitor a few weeks ago to see if he had heard anymore from the other party.
He said no so I assumed the matter had been resolved.
I thanked him for his work and asked him to send me on the bill.
He replied that it would be a *small* bill.

It was a very trivial case and clearcut.
I received the bill and I was shocked to say the least
600 euro .
I cannot fathom how the cost could be so high ,I was expecting 300-350 max as it was such a small matter.
Surely it must be a mistake ?


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## alaskaonline (4 Dec 2008)

why didn't you check the prices beforehand? 

i needed twice two forms of my solicitor and paid 160 € (€ 80 p.form), there was no meeting involved or any direct communication to the other party. you can still ring him and ask how he justifies this invoice but i have the sneaky suspicion that there wasn't an error done and you will need to cough it up.
certainly a high price paid for making the experience to always double check the fees.


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## Kano (4 Dec 2008)

I havent used him in about 5 years but I used him back then for a time consuming issue and his fees were quite reasonable.
When I went to see him this time  I was just expecting to pay for advice,I didnt envisage sending a letter,that was his idea .
It had better be a mistake otherwise I'll take my business and my familys away from him as well as spreading the word about him.
600 euro ,the average industrial wage for a week,for essentially typing what I told him ; a maximum of 90 mins work is extortion in my mind.


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## ontour (4 Dec 2008)

Did the bill give any breakdown of the 600 that might explain the basis for that amount?


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## JJ1982 (4 Dec 2008)

it does seem very high but really because it wasnt set out beforehand then there isnt much you could do. would you consider ringing him and asking him why is it so high, does he price his work on hours spent or for each letter he sent


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## Kano (4 Dec 2008)

Breakdown was
Professional fee to include meetings and correspondence :€450
Postage,petties and incidental :€40
Then Vat at 21.5%
I'll be ringing him tomorrow and I'll give him a piece of my mind.


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## ontour (4 Dec 2008)

So, 40 minutes with you, then letter was typed, he reviewed letter and letter was sent. Response was received and reviewed and he drafted a follow up letter which was typed up, reviewed by the solicitor and sent. It is quite a lot to do in 90 minutes.

I think that the solicitor should have contacted you when his letter was responded to and advised you that a further response was required. You could have then decided whether you wished to take the solicitors advise and proceed.

You might be interested to read this post where they say that 300 euro a hour is the going rate... that would make 90 minutes the 450 you were charged.


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## Kano (4 Dec 2008)

ontour said:


> You might be interested to read this post where they say that 300 euro a hour is the going rate... that would make 90 minutes the 450 you were charged.


So that would be 12k a week for a 40 hour week.
I'm in the wrong job so.
This was a cut and dry case,I had done all the work .
All the solicitor had to do was confirm to me if certain comments were not libelous.
It was straightforward work.
I've been living abroad for the last few years and I'd heard the stories of Rip off Ireland but this was a shocker for me.
600 euro for basically nodding his head and typing a letter I basically wrote.
Madness


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## McCrack (5 Dec 2008)

You might think...

Essentially you are engaging the services of a professional and the fees that come with that, it's the comparable across the board...doctors, accountants, engineers, architects, vets, dentists etc etc etc.

€300 per hour professional fee is normal I'm afraid.


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## ubiquitous (5 Dec 2008)

McCrack said:


> €300 per hour professional fee is normal I'm afraid.



I'm not so sure. There are plenty of professionals charging in or around half that rate - maybe even less in the current climate.


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## McCrack (5 Dec 2008)

I cant speak for other professionals in different careers as to what their going rate is, I can only relate my experience to the legal business, I used other examples to highlight that fact that professional services are costly,
I reiteriate that €300 per hour in the legal business is normal...

sure some do it cheaper and others dont but that's the market, like anything shop around...

There's no point in getting a professional to do a service and then whinging about it later saying it's too expensive, there's a lot of choice out there in the legal business...


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## ubiquitous (5 Dec 2008)

McCrack said:


> sure some do it cheaper and others dont but that's the market, like anything shop around...
> 
> There's no point in getting a professional to do a service and then whinging about it later saying it's too expensive, there's a lot of choice out there in the legal business...



My point exactly. Fwiw, my solicitor (extremely experienced, wise & competent, and in the Dublin area) doesn't charge the colour of €300 per hour.


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## Kano (5 Dec 2008)

McCrack said:


> Essentially you are engaging the services of a professional and the fees that come with that, it's the comparable across the board...doctors, accountants, engineers, architects, vets, dentists etc etc etc.
> 
> €300 per hour professional fee is normal I'm afraid.


A Professional ? What does that actually mean ?
I'm an engineer myself,extremely highly qualified both academically and '*professionally*' and I charge nowhere near 300 euro an hour.
Thats over 34 times the minimum hourly wage.A weeks wages for some.
I personally know vets,accountants ,doctors,actuaries,people far more highly qualified than a run of the mill solicitor and none of them charge anywhere near 300 an hour.
It is certainly not *normal*.


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## whitegrass (6 Dec 2008)

A *professional* is a person in a profession that requires certain types of skilled work requiring formal training or education. 

In the case of a Solicitor, and assuming you did an law degree, it takes in the order of 7 years to qualify.  In the initial years after qualification you earn a very basic level of income.  A charge of €300.00 per hour is, and assuming the charge is at partner level, certainly not over the top taking into account the amount of overheads in a Solicitor's office.


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## mercman (6 Dec 2008)

McCrack is 100% correct. Who pays for the solicitor's professional Insurance, their office, their secretary, their general overheads. As well as that Litigation is extremely expensive. Kano if you knew the answers why did you bother going to them so. And if the matter progresses will you be able to verse the law to defend yourself. I can tell you if you chose to use one of the big firms for Litigation it would cost you thousands. As a professional your problem is that you need to check your own fees not those of your solicitor. In this life you get what you pay for. BTW I am not a solicitor.


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## nuac (6 Dec 2008)

Kano, re your post yesterday that you know many vets, actuaries etc etc who do not charge €300 an hour.

Over decades of practice I have worked with many actuaries, medical people, engineers etc.   Many of these would not get out of bed for €300 an hour.   Check what an actuary or any doctor charges for a report, check what any engineer will charge for a report and court attendance.

If one goes to any experienced professional you are getting the benefit of his or her time, energy, experience etc.   Professional practices do not run on fresh air.


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## MandaC (7 Dec 2008)

Did the Solicitor tell you it was 90 minutes in total or are you summising that yourself?

The bill was €450 plus outlay, there is nothing the Solicitor can do about VAT.

It does not seem way over the top, although Solicitors may also be dropping their rates with the current credit crunch, but in fairness if you knew what to do yourself then you did not need the Solicitors advice in the first place. 

I work in a Tax Practice and you would be surprised the amount of people who ring up and treat it like a citizens advice bureau with "little queries" and then seem surprised that there is a fee attached.  I usually quote them the mastercard ad.

Letterhead-                                                 80c
Stamp-                                                       55c
Envelope -                                                  22c
Knowing what to type in the letter-                Priceless.


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## LouisCribben (7 Dec 2008)

I think the big mistake the op made was to not ask the solicitor how much it would cost before using his services.
If you had asked, you could have declined, and gone to another solicitor or negotiated a better price.

It's always very hard to negotiate on price after the work is done. 

If you negotiated before the solicitor did the work, he might have felt like he needed to be keen with his price to get the business, he might have been ashamed to say 300 Euros/Hour, but once the work is done, there is nothing you can do.

I think 300/Hour in these recessionary times is far to high, a lot of solicitors would have done the work for a lot less.


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## MandaC (7 Dec 2008)

I am not actually sure if it has been established that it was 90 minutes work -from my reading of the posts it is the OP who has stated that iin his opinion it should only have been 90 minutes work, not the Solicitor.  From the Solicitors breakdown of costs, it does not give a time frame - maybe it was 2 hours work, so €225 per hour - or even 2.5 hours lessening the hourly rate again.


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## postman pat (8 Dec 2008)

Hi Kano,
          next time a solicitor requires yor sevices as an engineer, avoid giving him or her a price and after charge 300 an hour,when he blows a fuse,show him this thread.



 Pat


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## shortcake (8 Dec 2008)

€450 is a reasonable fee for 1.5 hrs including a consultation and drafting a letter which prevents further expense in defending litigation. It's the going rate for a solicitor and well justified in my opinion.


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## McCrack (8 Dec 2008)

postman pat said:


> Hi Kano,
> next time a solicitor requires yor sevices as an engineer, avoid giving him or her a price and after charge 300 an hour,when he blows a fuse,show him this thread.
> 
> 
> ...


 
Yeh yeh humdrum...axe to grind


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## postman pat (8 Dec 2008)

um no mccrack.....sauce for de goose...


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## ubiquitous (8 Dec 2008)

postman pat said:


> Hi Kano,
> next time a solicitor requires yor sevices as an engineer, avoid giving him or her a price and after charge 300 an hour,when he blows a fuse,show him this thread.
> 
> Pat



I'm not so sure he would blow a fuse. The rates received by engineers and other professionals for appearing in court as expert witnesses are extremely generous. All solicitors would be keenly aware of these rates.


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## MandaC (8 Dec 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> I'm not so sure he would blow a fuse. The rates received by engineers and other professionals for appearing in court as expert witnesses are extremely generous. All solicitors would be keenly aware of these rates.




Can vouch for that....one engineer recently charged €1,200 plus VAT plus outlay for a Court appearance, he was there about an hour.


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## bond-007 (9 Dec 2008)

MandaC said:


> Letterhead-                                                 80c


Expensive


MandaC said:


> Envelope -                                                  22c


Those are the most expensive envelopes ever. i would change suppliers.


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## Incamera (16 Dec 2008)

postman pat said:


> Hi Kano,
> next time a solicitor requires yor sevices as an engineer, avoid giving him or her a price and after charge 300 an hour,when he blows a fuse,show him this thread.
> 
> 
> ...



Pat, 

I know you were trying to be smart, but ask yourself who pays for engineering reports in a Court case? It's not the solicitor, the bill gets passed on to the client.

So, considering the solicitor merely handles the transfer of funds between the engineer and the client, why would he or she care how much the engineer charged as long as the client was willing to pay it?


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## murphaph (16 Dec 2008)

In the case of a death, can a solicitors ask for x amount of money from the estate for work done if they can't produce a copy of the letter they're supposed to issue before commencing action for the now deceased client? 

Is it not a serious problem for them not to issue that letter?



(x is a large amount of money-multiple thousands-figure is disputed by administrator's solicitor as being "extortionate"-his words, not mine).


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## Incamera (16 Dec 2008)

murphaph said:


> In the case of a death, can a solicitors ask for x amount of money from the estate for work done if they can't produce a copy of the letter they're supposed to issue before commencing action for the now deceased client?
> 
> Is it not a serious problem for them not to issue that letter?
> 
> ...



It's not clear what you're referring to, but i assume it's the mandatory s.68 letter which deals with fees? It should be sent out, but it's not fatal to the recovery of fees if it isn't sent. There was a judgment on it in 2001 and 2002. X's estate will probably have to pay the invoice.


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## postman pat (20 Dec 2008)

incamera,
            i mean if he needed a solicitor in a private capacity,by the way im a bit surprised at all the angst in the replies i got on my opinion on solicitors,it seems people can have an opinion on builders, foreign property sellers etc,but when solictors are asked about charging 300 euros an hour,its out of order!!

  Pat


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## mathepac (20 Dec 2008)

MandaC said:


> Can vouch for that....one engineer recently charged €1,200 plus VAT plus outlay for a Court appearance, he was there about an hour.


That would be in line with invoices I've issued in the past for appearing as an expert witness, scaled to the Court.

The difficulty can be with the timing - it might be an hour, it might be two days as  timing the progression of cases through a court can be difficult and there has to be cognizance of the possible loss of other fee-earning activity.


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## Incamera (21 Dec 2008)

postman pat said:


> incamera,
> i mean if he needed a solicitor in a private capacity,by the way im a bit surprised at all the angst in the replies i got on my opinion on solicitors,it seems people can have an opinion on builders, foreign property sellers etc,but when solictors are asked about charging 300 euros an hour,its out of order!!
> 
> Pat



If he needs an engineer (I presume you mean engineer?) then he's free to shop around, as anyone is entitled to shop around for a service. I'm not really sure how you're struggling with the concept.


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## darkylarch (21 Dec 2008)

Seems reasonable enough to me. The fact that you consider yourself to have drafted most of the letter is not all that relevant; if you were happy that the contents of the letter were correct, appropriate, and that the letter would have the same effect coming from you as it would have coming from your solicitor, why didn't you send it yourself? 

What you've been billed for is your solicitor's professional judgment, his time (which he could have spent earning the same fees with other clients) and the name of his firm appearing on the top of the letter. He probably should have confirmed with you that a further letter was needed but, in his professional judgment it obviously was needed and could have been dealt with by him without your input. Consulting with you would have cost you more. 

If you'd gone to a partner in one of the top commercial firms you'd have been paying between 450 and 500 an hour before VAT.


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## mercman (21 Dec 2008)

darkylarch said:


> If you'd gone to a partner in one of the top commercial firms you'd have been paying between 450 and 500 an hour before VAT.



You'd be lucky. In very many cases the letterhead of the big firms frightens off the defendant. And you could be paying significantly more per hour. 

If the OP is seeking the best opinion in litigation to win a case, they are going to have to pay the fee.


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## Heather Long (24 Dec 2008)

I have used the services of Caroline Fanning at www.fanningsolicitors.ie  in Foxrock on two occasions and got a  a very prompt professional job done each time at a reasonable fee. I always make sure I know in advance what the service will cost.


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## cbreeze (25 Dec 2008)

Fees charged to OP are normal for a large firm of solicitors (what I see coming through in my place).  Cav€at €mptor and all that.  You go into a bar or a dry cleaner's the prices should be displayed.  Why not a lawyer's?


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## murphaph (25 Dec 2008)

Incamera said:


> It's not clear what you're referring to, but i assume it's the mandatory s.68 letter which deals with fees? It should be sent out, but it's not fatal to the recovery of fees if it isn't sent. There was a judgment on it in 2001 and 2002. X's estate will probably have to pay the invoice.


Thanks Incamera. The solicitor for the administrator of the estate is currently negotiating the Invoice as he feels it is totally extortionate for the amount of work done.


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