# Reform of the 'L' drivers system: after husband's death on St Stephen's Day, 2004.



## haminka1 (26 Apr 2010)

I was absolutely astonished to read this story :

[broken link removed]

1. provisional licenses are unheard of in the rest of Europe - when will they be eventually done away with?
2. this guy was dui and wasn't breathalysed! why? this should be done automatically after any kind of accident
3. this guy was arrogant enough to accuse the driver he killed for dazzling him with his lights

Is a person's life really only worth € 470?


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## jhegarty (26 Apr 2010)

haminka1 said:


> 1. provisional licenses are unheard of in the rest of Europe - when will they be eventually done away with?



They did 3 years ago.


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## haminka1 (26 Apr 2010)

jhegarty said:


> They did 3 years ago.



surely you are jesting? the reality is diferrent


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## jhegarty (26 Apr 2010)

In what way ?

€1000 fine now for driving unaccompanied, €1000 for no L plates.


Those fines would be amongst the most serious for driving offences.


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## haminka1 (26 Apr 2010)

jhegarty said:


> In what way ?
> 
> €1000 fine now for driving unaccompanied, €1000 for no L plates.
> 
> ...



considering the number of l drivers sitting in their cars on their own, i don't think so - and yeah, judging from the way they drive, they would be l-drivers
notwithstanding the fact, that l-licence should be absolutely done with, there shouldn't be a place for it in a society with so many cars on the streets


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## jhegarty (26 Apr 2010)

What system do you suggest replaces the current laws ?


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## haminka1 (26 Apr 2010)

Completely ban l-drivers from the road - either full driving license or nothing
introduce temporary full-licence for the first two years - if the driver gets any penalty point, he/she has to resit the exams 
that's how i know it from abroad and it helps


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## jhegarty (26 Apr 2010)

So no new people get to drive ?


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## Firefly (26 Apr 2010)

haminka1 said:


> *completely ban l-drivers from the road* - either full driving licence or nothing
> introduce temporary full-licence for the first two years - if the driver gets any penslty point, he/she has to resit the exams
> that's how i know it from abroad and it helps


 
With the exception of those taking driving lessons from approved driving schools in order to pass the test


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## haminka1 (26 Apr 2010)

Firefly said:


> With the exception of those taking driving lessons from approved driving schools in order to pass the test



well, they take their lessons in designated cars, so that's rather obvious


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## haminka1 (26 Apr 2010)

jhegarty said:


> So no new people get to drive ?



as above -you are learning to drive in a designated car of a driving school, aren't you? once the lesson is over, take a bus


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## Staples (26 Apr 2010)

haminka1 said:


> as above -you are learning to drive in a designated car of a driving school, aren't you? once the lesson is over, take a bus


 
Surely they're even more difficult to drive....


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## Firefly (26 Apr 2010)

haminka1 said:


> well, they take their lessons in designated cars, so that's rather obvious


 
it's obvious but would be required if such a ban was brought in.


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## mathepac (26 Apr 2010)

haminka1 said:


> ... introduce temporary full-licence for the first two years - if the driver gets any penslty point, he/she has to resit the exams ...


Good idea, like in Oz and NZ,  a "Restricted" licence with an "R" plate prominently displayed - no passengers, zero alcohol or other drugs, any driving offence results in loss of licence, special insurance disc, GPS tracker / speed resticter fitted,  no motorway driving, no towing of trailer or other cars, etc...


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## jhegarty (26 Apr 2010)

But we have a lower death rate than Australia and NZ.

Why would you take a model from a country where more people are killed ?


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## Caveat (26 Apr 2010)

haminka1 said:


> considering the number of l drivers sitting in their cars on their own streets


 
This isn't always as it seems. Cars can have L plates up for the use/benefit of another family member. Not unusual at all for a fully qualified driver to be driving on their own with an L plated car. I did it myself a couple of years ago.


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## haminka1 (26 Apr 2010)

Caveat said:


> This isn't always as it seems. Cars can have L plates up for the use/benefit of another family member. Not unusual at all for a fully qualified driver to be driving on their own with an L plated car. I did it myself a couple of years ago.



but you can see if the driver is experienced or a newbie ...


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## haminka1 (26 Apr 2010)

jhegarty said:


> But we have a lower death rate than Australia and NZ.
> 
> Why would you take a model from a country where more people are killed ?



how about europe? the standard of driving in the continental europe is much better, take germany - they also have some restrictions for drivers in their first two years and it's working fine and their standard of driving is much better than in ireland


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## Sunny (26 Apr 2010)

haminka1 said:


> but you can see if the driver is experienced or a newbie ...


 
How?


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## delgirl (26 Apr 2010)

There are lots of L drivers out on the roads on their own and they're not parents who have put up an L plate for a family member.

One of my friend's sons, 17 years old, has been driving around since he got his provisional licence on his own and never with supervision.

He drives around town where Gardai are on foot, bicycle and car patrol and has never been stopped although he has an L plate up, is obviously only 17 and is unaccompanied.

Last week, a young female car driver got stuck while trying to turn off the main street in town and a man had to go and get her out of the car, turn it for her and park it so she could get back in and drive on the straight stretch of road.  Absolute madness!


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## Sunny (26 Apr 2010)

haminka1 said:


> how about europe? the standard of driving in the continental europe is much better, take germany - they also have some restrictions for drivers in their first two years and it's working fine and their standard of driving is much better than in ireland


 
The poor standard of driving in Ireland is not just learner drivers fault. There are plenty of people on the road who got an amnesty from ever sitting a test. As someone who sees the standard of driving on the M1 every day, I can tell you it is not young inexperienced drivers that have a death wish. 

It should be reformed but I have yet to see the statistics to show that provisional/learner drivers are responsible for the amount of deaths on our roads. They shouldn't be on the road but other road users can't use them as a convenient excuse for the crap driving on Irish roads.


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## haminka1 (26 Apr 2010)

from how they are driving - surely you can see if the driver behind or before you is experienced or not, even if both are not sticking to the rules, you can differentiate between mistakes due to lack of knowledge or simple ignorance


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## Sunny (26 Apr 2010)

haminka1 said:


> from how they are driving - surely you can see if the driver behind or before you is experienced or not, even if both are not sticking to the rules, you can differentiate between mistakes due to lack of knowledge or simple ignorance


 
I see plenty of 40-50 year olds drive carelessy, ignorantly and dangerously. I see so called experienced drivers cut lanes without indicating. I see them mis-using the fast lane on motorways. I see them tailgate. I see road rage.


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## mathepac (26 Apr 2010)

jhegarty said:


> But we have a lower death rate than Australia  and NZ.
> 
> Why would you take a model from a country where more people are killed  ?


In absolute terms maybe, but what if we do the comparisons in terms of RTA fatalities per million vehicular kilometers travelled, per licenced driver, per capita, per mile of roadway  or per registered vehicle? Some of these comparisons seem to indicate we are marginally worse than NZ but in almost all cases significantly worse than Oz.


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## haminka1 (26 Apr 2010)

Sunny said:


> I see plenty of 40-50 year olds drive carelessy, ignorantly and dangerously. I see so called experienced drivers cut lanes without indicating. I see them mis-using the fast lane on motorways. I see them tailgate. I see road rage.


so do i, that's what i'm saying - ignorance - but surely this behaviour starts to certain extent with poor standards set for driving? and this includes the possibility to drive on the road without any previous lessons and tests passed?


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## Mpsox (26 Apr 2010)

There are some L drivers who are extremly careful and there are some who are dangerouse. Likewise there are plenty of drivers who've passed their driving test and don't know how to drive properly and safely, drive cars that are too powerful for the skill-set and have no respect for anyone on the road. Personally, I'd like to see another driving licence category be introduced for anyone driving an SUV/4x4 or cars over a particuler engine size with a requisite test before they are allowed drive those cars

However what I don't understand in this country is our reluctance to prosecute someone for manslaughter where they kill someone on the road due to their reckless and irresponsible behaviour. That to me is the big issue. In the US they have the crime of vehicular manslaugher, why not have it here?


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## Latrade (26 Apr 2010)

Just out of interest, how many of those objecting to the system involving provisional licences took advantage of the old lax approach while they were learning?


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## UptheDeise (1 May 2010)

Does anyone have a figure on how many L drivers are responsible for causing crashes on our roads?


Got some here:



> Latest figures from the Road Safety Authority (RSA) show that learner drivers were responsible for nearly one in five fatal crashes in 2008 -- the latest period for which such detailed statistics are available. They accounted for 18 out of 103 road deaths attributable to driver error.


 
So 1 in 5 in 2008. That's 20% for the L's and 80% for the experienced.

For 2009 they were accounted for 17% of road deaths. It seems to me that the more 'experienced' drivers are the real threat on our roads.



> Learner drivers accounted for 13pc of all drivers killed on the roads in 2008 -- 17 out of 125 driver fatalities. And around 32 learner drivers were injured in serious crashes.


 
But how many of the 13% were responsible for the crashes? More scare mongering by the government.

http://www.independent.ie/national-...rivers-caught-in-garda-clampdown-2152393.html


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## tenchi-fan (1 May 2010)

deleted


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## jhegarty (1 May 2010)

UptheDeise said:


> But how many of the 13% were responsible for the crashes? More scare mongering by the government.
> 
> http://www.independent.ie/national-...rivers-caught-in-garda-clampdown-2152393.html




Given L drivers make up more than 13% of driver , it would make them the safer type of driver.


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## huskerdu (1 May 2010)

jhegarty said:


> Given L drivers make up more than 13% of driver , it would make them the safer type of driver.




According to the CSO, in 2008, 12% of the 2.6M  licenses in the state were learner permits,

This was down from 18% in 2007.


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## jhegarty (1 May 2010)

huskerdu said:


> According to the CSO, in 2008, 12% of the 2.6M  licenses in the state were learner permits,
> 
> This was down from 18% in 2007.




ah, didn't know about the dropped number.

So basically both groups are just as safe.


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## Pique318 (5 May 2010)

Anyone got stats for drivers of 95-02 Micras ? They're bleedin' lethal !!!

I avoid them like the plague, but one of them still managed to crash into me (driving big red saloon) on clear bright day. He was an unaccompanied L-driver too, but not that it matters as we've just determined (and the Garda didn't bat an eyelid at that fact either!). 
I swear, they're like the Jonahs of the motoring world. Inevitably drawn towards creating mayhem and carnage !


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## terrontress (6 May 2010)

haminka1 said:


> how about europe? the standard of driving in the continental europe is much better, take germany - they also have some restrictions for drivers in their first two years and it's working fine and their standard of driving is much better than in ireland


 
North of the border, newly qualified drivers have to display an R in their windows where their L would have been, they have a reduced speed limit and the number of penalty points needed to lose your license is halved so two speeding offences would put them off the road.


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## csirl (7 May 2010)

terrontress said:


> North of the border, newly qualified drivers have to display an R in their windows where their L would have been, they have a reduced speed limit and the number of penalty points needed to lose your license is halved so two speeding offences would put them off the road.


 
Doesnt stop them speeding and doing dangerous overtaking on the M1 betweeen Dundalk and Dublin.


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## Bill Struth (7 May 2010)

csirl said:


> Doesnt stop them speeding and doing dangerous overtaking on the M1 betweeen Dundalk and Dublin.


 Aye, it's only the nordies that do it as well. I'm a regular on that stretch of motorway and I've yet to see a Garda car on it. Maybe that's the problem, people speed where they know they'll get away with it.


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## GarBow (7 May 2010)

I'm also a regular on that road and i too am yet to se a Garda car on it. I'm also yet to see an 'R' Plate displayed in a northern reg car on it. The northern reg cars do drive faster. They also drive far more competently.


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