# Extension and planning permission



## byrnsey09 (29 Jun 2010)

Hi guys


Does anyone know if a single storey side extension can be added to a  2 storey house without planning permission, if it is below a certain size??

Thanks a mil

Byrnsey


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## hippy1975 (29 Jun 2010)

Yes, it can, but I can't remember the size limit, you could probably find it on your county councils website, friends of mine did a 12x12 extn a few years ago and did not need pp


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## onq (29 Jun 2010)

Not if its to the side.

ONQ

 [broken link removed]

 All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied   upon                                   as a defence or support - in and   of     itself  -         should       legal        action    be        taken.
 Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in                                     Real Life with rights to inspect and      issue         reports    on     the         matters    at       hand.


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## Firefly (30 Jun 2010)

Hi ONQ. What about if the extension is at the back of the house, but there was a side extension added a long time ago (possibly soon after the house was built circa 1960).
Tx


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## Superman (30 Jun 2010)

Firefly said:


> Hi ONQ. What about if the extension is at the back of the house, but there was a side extension added a long time ago (possibly soon after the house was built circa 1960).
> Tx


Planning Legislation was introduced in 63. If built before that it is permitted development. If built after that it may be unauthorised development - depending on whether it got Permission or not and whether or whether or not it was exempted development. I am not certain of the extent of the exemptions to the requirement for Permission in the early years of the Planning Acts - but I doubt that side extensions were allowed.

In any case, it would appear that the Local Authority has lost the power to require the removal of the extension - due to lapse of time.  They have 7 years to invoke this power.


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## Firefly (2 Jul 2010)

Superman said:


> Planning Legislation was introduced in 63. If built before that it is permitted development. If built after that it may be unauthorised development - depending on whether it got Permission or not and whether or whether or not it was exempted development. I am not certain of the extent of the exemptions to the requirement for Permission in the early years of the Planning Acts - but I doubt that side extensions were allowed.
> 
> In any case, it would appear that the Local Authority has lost the power to require the removal of the extension - due to lapse of time. They have 7 years to invoke this power.


 
Thankyou Superman (Never thought I'd usher those words!).


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## onq (3 Jul 2010)

Firefly said:


> Hi ONQ. What about if the extension is at the back of the house, but there was a side extension added a long time ago (possibly soon after the house was built circa 1960).
> Tx




Hi Firefly,

Sorry for taking so long to come back - lot on just now.

"Extensions" to the side can be exempted if they comprise solely of the conversion of a Garage to the side of the house.

Garages and carports can be built to the side of the house.

Thus there seems to be a causal chain that can be followed but a straight extension - nope, not as far as I know.

What Superman has referred to may be deemed to be free from enforcement action IF there was never any action taken before AND the time is elapsed.

The 1994 Regulations set this at 5 years following a High Court Action in relation to a planning advertisement hoarding.

The current Planning and Development Act is as per Superman's comments for developments undertaken without benefit of permission - 7 years.

This rises to twelve years for developments undertaken on foot of a permission but not built in compliance with it.

Pre-'63 developments are generally considered exempt.

Works carried out prior to the 13th December 1989 are deemed to have Bye-Law Approval.

However an unauthorised side extension "shielding" development to the rear of it may not in itself comply with the requirements of being part of the "front" of the house, but its a question for the local authority.

You can asked a general question of them in the form of a Section 5 Declaration which may shed some light on the matter - costs €80 and takes four weeks IIRC.


ONQ

 [broken link removed]

 All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied    upon                                   as a defence or support - in and    of     itself  -         should       legal        action    be         taken.
 Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in                                      Real Life with rights to inspect  and      issue         reports    on     the         matters    at        hand.


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## Firefly (5 Jul 2010)

Thanks for that ONQ. The house next to us also has a side extension, however we were thinking of extending over our side extension (making it 2 story). Are there restrictions such as distance between our houses or other issues can could prevent us getting planning? We get on well with our neighbours and will be discussing our plans with them before the planning notice goes up etc. Thanks again.


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## onq (5 Jul 2010)

Hi Firefly,

You're very welcome.

There are limits on all sides to what you can do with exempted development.
1st floor windows must be 11 M from the boundary and 1st floor area = max 12 sqm for semi d.
In theory there may be far less limits to what you may get from a negotiated planning permission.

Therefore I'd strongly suggest you negotiate with your neighbours in relation to any new development works.
To support these negotiations, I'd suggest you retain competent buildings professional to draw up plans and design the works to be in compliance with the regs.

This puts your best foot forward when dealing with the local authority.
It may also gain you additional area for your extension in the sense that your negotiations may allow you to build on the party wall.

This could involve detailing it and agreeing it so your neighbour can build off it later.
Any agreement like this should be formalised to avoid unnecessary rancour and dispute should issues arise later.
You should retain an architect to advise you on design and  an engineer to advise you on structure, both to inspect issue certification.
Your professionals and/or your solicitor can also advise you if you run into trouble mid-project - specifically with reference to the Land Conveyancing Law Reform Act 2009.

Read this forum and boards.ie to see the kind of knots interested and well-meaning amateurs get themselves into when carrying out development without the assistance of professionals.

ONQ

 [broken link removed]

 All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied     upon                                   as a defence or support - in and     of     itself  -         should       legal        action    be          taken.
 Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in                                       Real Life with rights to inspect   and      issue         reports    on     the         matters    at         hand.


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## Firefly (5 Jul 2010)

Thanks again ONQ. An architect is #1 on our list actually. We see this as our "big job" that we have 1 chance to get right. Don't want to be wishing we did something differently afterwards. 

I'm a bit confused by the term party wall though. There is a side entrance next to our side entension (about 2-3 feet - can measure later) and another one (same width) on our neighbour's side. We plan on leaving this side access, so the party wall with remain. The total distance therefore between our house and our neightbour's is approx 6 feet. Just wondering if this would hamper our planning permission for a 2story extension?


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## OneAndOnly (5 Jul 2010)

Sorry to hijack your thread  but its a similar question.

I'm planning on adding <=40m2 back extension to my standard semi D.
I will engage an architect but it will be planning exempt.

I'm also considering knocking my garage and rebuilding it, going 2 story and extend main house roof to meet new extension.  Planing wise shouldn't be an issue - lots of precedent in the area and the neighbours should be ok with it.

My main concern is timing, could I start the back extension and submit planning application for side/attic at the same time?  My thinking is the back extension would be finished in and around the time when planning comes through?

Thanks


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## Shawady (5 Jul 2010)

OneAndOnly said:


> My main concern is timing, could I start the back extension and submit planning application for side/attic at the same time? My thinking is the back extension would be finished in and around the time when planning comes through?
> 
> Thanks


 
I am close to completing an extension on my house. The planning went smoothly enough but my architect reckons it can be a bit pot luck with different planners in different councils. You might be better getting planning permission and doing the job all at the same time.


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## Pope John 11 (5 Jul 2010)

Firefly said:


> Thanks again ONQ. An architect is #1 on our list actually. We see this as our "big job" that we have 1 chance to get right. Don't want to be wishing we did something differently afterwards.
> 
> I'm a bit confused by the term party wall though. There is a side entrance next to our side entension (about 2-3 feet - can measure later) and another one (same width) on our neighbour's side. We plan on leaving this side access, so the party wall with remain. The total distance therefore between our house and our neightbour's is approx 6 feet. Just wondering if this would hamper our planning permission for a 2story extension?


 
So on one side of single storey extension you have 2-3 foot entrance. 

What happens on the other side of your property. Does the single storey extension extend to your other neighbours, boundary wall.

Is your house semi-detached? If it is then you will have a 'party wall' or 'parti wall' between both houses, partially owned by you & your neighbour.

If building over an existing extension you will require professional help of a structural engineer.
1. What is the existing wall construction
2. What are the existing foundations & are they capable of taking the additional extension, if not is underpinning works required. Try to avoid this.
3. Any asbestos related issues
4. Any additional bathrooms etc may require additional drainage works, are there any down-pipes to be removed etc


How old is the single storey extension


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## Firefly (5 Jul 2010)

Hi JPII,

It's a semi-d with a garage conversion. The garage conversion was completed when the house was built (1960). Beyond this extension, there's a side access between our house and our neighbour's. They also have a single-story garage conversion. The distance between our garage conversion and their's is approx 6 feet, with a party wall splitting the 2. We were thinking of extending our garage conversion upwards to create a 2 story conversion, leaving the same side access space when completed. I was just wondering is there a minimum distance that the 2 houses need to be (i.e. greater than our 6 feet) required for planning?

Thanks

Firefly.


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## Pope John 11 (5 Jul 2010)

Firefly said:


> Hi JPII,
> 
> It's a semi-d with a garage conversion. The garage conversion was completed when the house was built (1960). Beyond this extension, there's a side access between our house and our neighbour's. They also have a single-story garage conversion. The distance between our garage conversion and their's is approx 6 feet, with a party wall splitting the 2. We were thinking of extending our garage conversion upwards to create a 2 story conversion, leaving the same side access space when completed. I was just wondering is there a minimum distance that the 2 houses need to be (i.e. greater than our 6 feet) required for planning?
> 
> ...


 
Has anyone else done exactly what you are thinking of doing?

Whats the construction of the garage walls (Single leaf, double leaf with a cavity etc) & roof?


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## DBK100 (6 Jul 2010)

Firefly, if works are to be considered as Exempted Development they must comply with certain conditions as set out in the regulations. 
This stipulates distances to boundaries, positions of windows, overall heights etc.

As your proposed work will require Planning Permission, the exact nature of the work will be controlled through the approval of your submitted drawings.
Therefore you are not restricted to a certain dimension from the boundary. You can propose whatever layout you wish, including building right up to the boundary.
This will then be considered and either accepted, refused or changed by use of a condition attached to a grant of planning permission.

Obviously common sense should prevail and any proposal should be drawn up to consider your own space requirements and any negative impact on a neighbour or the streetscape. 
A well considered design will have the smoothest passage through the planning process.

A word of warning for owners planning to extend under the  exempted development regulations: An amendment to the regulations in 2007 means that if you need to demolish part of your existing property to make way for an extension, and the area to be demolished abuts a neighbouring property, then you will require a grant of planning permission for that demolition. The regulation does not differentiate between structures such as garages, sheds or habitable space, so be careful.

When it comes to the exempted development regulations you need to check and double check everything.

DBK100
www.mesh.ie


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## Firefly (6 Jul 2010)

Pope John 11 said:


> Has anyone else done exactly what you are thinking of doing?
> 
> Whats the construction of the garage walls (Single leaf, double leaf with a cavity etc) & roof?


 
Something very similiar was done by a neighbour within the last 2 years.

No idea of the construction  !


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## Firefly (6 Jul 2010)

Thanks DBK100.

I think it's time to seek professional advise on this.

We have made some drawings as to how we could see an extension working for us, but are thinking of employing the services of an architect to flesh these out (or challenge our thinking as we are very open). This work should also include the planning permission of same. 

Woult the architect be the best person to advise on materials such as glass and insulation options also? Would the architect be the best person to manage the build (i.e. get sign-off that the building has been done to requirements) or should we hire a project manager / engineer for this?

Also, what's the time limit once planning has been approved for an extension?

Thanks again.

F.


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## DBK100 (6 Jul 2010)

I would feel comfortable telling you that an architect is the best person to assist you through the entire process. I also recognise that others with appropriate skills (technicians, engineers etc) can undertake such work.

It all depends on the owners requirements, budget, awareness of design, space, light, etc. Some owners may perceive an architect to be the more expensive option, but fail to go and obtain a few quotes. Others might just plump for an engineer or draughts-person, and fail to look at the quality of design and completed projects that person has produced.

No two architects are the same. Some will be arrogant and dictate their design preferences, others will be accomodating, yet guide you carefully towards optimum solutions without compromises. Some architects (and other construction professionals) routinely specify the same materials over and over again, because that is the easiest route for them. Others consider materials and construction methods on a case-by-case basis to achieve optimum levels of thermal performance within budget, or to result in structure that will age gracefully rather than stain and degrade over time, etc.

The architect can offer a full service from inception, through all stages, to final completion on site. Its also possible to hire an architect for defined stages or for a limited scope of work. This can suit individuals with some degree of knowledge in construction or those who have a competent and professional builder on board.

You will have a timeframe of 5 years from the date of grant of permission to bring the project to a state of substantial completion (usually taken to be up to wall-plate level).

DBK100
www.mesh.ie


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## Shawady (6 Jul 2010)

Firefly said:


> We have made some drawings as to how we could see an extension working for us, but are thinking of employing the services of an architect to flesh these out (or challenge our thinking as we are very open). This work should also include the planning permission of same.


 

We are coming to the end of completing a two-storey extension to the side of our house. It is essentially a garage conversion and a large bedroom built above. 
We went with an architect in the end , and I can honestly say it was a positive experience. 
I can see ways in which he saved us money and he also had some good ideas that he brought to the project.
Most architects will give you a fixed price and even break down the bill so if you only want to use them up until planning permission is obtained you can.

If I were you I would get some quotes from several architects and see what they think of your proposed extension.


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