# Starting salary negotiation advice in public sector



## PoundMan (23 Feb 2022)

Hi folks,

Hoping you guys can help give me some clarity in my decision-making process and advice on negotiation.
I am currently working in an IT department the public sector for a local authority since 2021, earning €44,574 gross annual salary.
My salary is due to increase to €45,975 in June, with a further 1% increase due in October for all staff.
The rest of the salary scale is as follows:
[€44,574][€45,975][€47,378][€48,781][€50,182][€51,815 - LSI 1][€53,454 - LSI 2]
_* LSI 1 after 3 years satisfactory service at the maximum.
* LSI 2 after 6 years satisfactory service at the maximum._

So it would take me roughly another 12 years to reach the top of the scale in my current role. What I have noticed so far as that there also doesn't look to be that much room for potential promotion prospects in IT Departments within county councils, given that some people are of the opinion that it is a bit of a dead-end environment.

I have been offered a similar role with a University, which I am considering because I think there might be more scope for future promotion within the higher education sector.

But there are a few potential stumbling blocks that I'm trying to weigh up.
Firstly the salary is €38,103 - €64,582 in the following 15-point scale:
[€38,103][€39,165][€40,172][€42,563][€45,099][€46,943][€48,862][€50,767][€52,686][€55,106][€57,034][€59,125][€61,212][€63,253][€64,582 - LSI]
* LSI payable after 3 years service on the maximum of the scale.

So before I potentially accept this job offer, I will need to negotiate with the HR department at the University to agree which point on the salary scale that I would be starting on. At a bare minimum they would need to match my existing salary (€44,574) but there are additional factors that I think need to be taken into consideration.

Firstly, although I am currently on €44,574 I am only a few months away from an incremental increase to €45,975 plus a further 1% increase in October which I believe will be applied across the board to all staff, but I'm not sure if this 1% increase will apply to public sector staff working in higher education.

Secondly, my current role is a 37-hour work week (net) which is due to decrease to a 35-hour work week in July due to the end of the 2013 Haddington Road Agreement. So by July I will be earning €45,975 for a 35-hour week with a 1% increase in October. The job at the University was advertised as a 39-hour work week (net) before Christmas and I'm not sure if the University hours are going to be reduced or not as part of the ending of these austerity measures. At the moment it would be at least an extra two hours per week that I would have to work, potentially increasing to an extra 4 hours per week after July.

Thirdly, my current role is only a 30-minute commute (15mins each way) costing roughly €782 per year on car fuel. The role with the university would be a 60-minute commute (30mins each way) costing roughly €2,273 per year on car fuel. So if I need to factor in that changing jobs will cost be an extra €1,491 per year on car fuel expenses.

With all of these factors coming into consideration, I am trying to determine what would be a reasonable fair starting point on the salary with the University? I don't want to ask HR for too big of a starting point where they would totally discard me and revoke the job offer. But at the same time I think the starting salary needs to reflect the potential longer hours and longer commute. Plus I think there is also a sense that it is logical to want an actual pay-rise as opposed to matching pay when moving from one job to another. It would be great to hear some of your opinions as to which starting point on the salary scale you feel that I should try to obtain. It would be particularly interesting to know if anyone has found themselves in a similar position, moving from one public sector job to another and having to argue a fair starting salary point.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (23 Feb 2022)

PoundMan said:


> So before I potentially accept this job offer, I will need to negotiate with the HR department at the University to agree which point on the salary scale that I would be starting on. At a bare minimum they would need to match my existing salary (€44,574) but there are additional factors that I think need to be taken into consideration.


It's a long time since I knew much about this, but AFAIK they will only match your existing public service salary point, and not above.


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## Steven Barrett (23 Feb 2022)

I have never heard of someone who asked to be compensated to take account of the longer commute. If someone said that to me, I wouldn't hire them. I'd feel they'd grumble about the commute all the time and jump ship to somewhere closer to home in a flash. 

The differences in numbers that you are talking about aren't significant. You need to look at the bigger picture:


Is the new job more interesting work. Will you enjoy it more? 
Will you learn new things, making you more employable in the future to other companies?
Is there better earning potential in the new role? It appears that there is.


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## PoundMan (23 Feb 2022)

Steven Barrett said:


> I have never heard of someone who asked to be compensated to take account of the longer commute. If someone said that to me, I wouldn't hire them. I'd feel they'd grumble about the commute all the time and jump ship to somewhere closer to home in a flash.
> 
> The differences in numbers that you are talking about aren't significant.


Thanks for your response Steven. I wouldn't actually ask HR to compensate me specifically for a longer commute, but still in my own head I would have to factor it into my decision-making process when asking about starting salary since it would be costing me an extra €2,273 per year. To me this would be a fairly significant number. But of course I agree it wouldn't be the kind of thing to actually verbally specify when negotiating with HR.


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## Shirazman (23 Feb 2022)

What leads you to believe that HR will be interested in 'negotiating' with you?    Presumably there's a salary scale for the position you've been offered and the only possible negotiation will be as to which point on the scale you will be placed on?


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## Shirazman (23 Feb 2022)

.


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## elcato (23 Feb 2022)

Why have they made a job offer without stating the salary ? I presume it is a PS thing so you need to find out what the rules are. Coyote probably has it right and they are just giving you the same or the point on the scale they have that a person of your experience has. Looking at your figures that will be lower than what you are on but your increase will be greater and over the long term you will earn more. If it was me I would be more inclined to be taking the view of better progression and better in the long run to move despite taking a pay cut initially.


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## Bolter (24 Feb 2022)

As you are contemplating going from one public sector job to another you may be entitled to go up to 46943euro
Google "assimilation" and public service.
Also University may also be getting those public service pay rise of 1%.
Worth checking.


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## PoundMan (25 Feb 2022)

Thanks for the responses folks, I will let you know how it works out. There is of course a chance that the University (it's a TU by the way) might also get the 1% pay increase in October and might also reduce their 39-hour working week in July as part of the winding down of the Haddington Road Agreement. I'm just not sure if University employees are included in the same boat along with other public sector services like Civil Service and Local Authorities.


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## PoundMan (25 Feb 2022)

I have just been informed that the job offer with the University would be a "specific purpose contract" so I am guessing this means it is only a temporary short-term contract. Therefore I am probably going to have to reject the offer as I don't think it would be wise to leave a job with a permanent contract for one with a "specific purpose contract" as is being offered.


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## Protocol (25 Feb 2022)

IoT, TU and uni staff are (typically, generally) considered public servants, yes.

So they are part of the public service pay agreements.


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## ClubMan (25 Feb 2022)

PoundMan said:


> I have just been informed that the job offer with the University would be a "specific purpose contract" so I am guessing this means it is only a temporary short-term contract. Therefore I am probably going to have to reject the offer as I don't think it would be wise to leave a job with a permanent contract for one with a "specific purpose contract" as is being offered.


You shouldn't accept or reject it until you've actually read the contract of employment.


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## AlbacoreA (26 Feb 2022)

Don't assume there will always be increments or promotions. There been freezes before.


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## Bolter (26 Feb 2022)

Might be worth exploring if you could take a career break to take up this post if its higher pay.
(I think public service now allow you to take up different paix employment during career break: check with your hr.
And then revert when the contract ends?
A higher grade post also looks good on cv.
Worth making enquiry.
Your own organisation will value you more if they see you considering other posts.
This will impact their decision making when internal promotions arise.


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## RetirementPlan (21 Mar 2022)

What is the exact wording of the booklet for your new position about starting salary?


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## PoundMan (2 Apr 2022)

After a number of weeks, I have finally received the contract in the post today. Again it is classed as a "Specific Purpose" contract with an "Expected duration" of 2.5 years commencing in May 2022. It states that the salary will be paid at the first point of the scale, but states that I "may be eligible for incremental credit" upon completion of an Incremental Credit Application with supporting written confirmation. It states the following:

*"This is a whole time, specified purpose and pensionable appointment to provide support to the TU's Systems Integration Project. The date of commencement of employment is May 2022 and the employment will terminate when the specified purpose ceases. In accordance with Section 8 of the Protection of Employees (Fixed-Term Work) Act 2003, this contract is being offered on a specified purpose basis rather than as a contract of indefinite duration because the termination of this contract will occur upon completion of the work in which you are engaged in. The Unfair Dismissals Act 1977 to 2001 will not apply to a dismissal consisting of the expiry on this contract only of the completion of the specified purpose of this contract."*

Although admittedly 2.5 years is more secure than the 1 year contract I was expecting when I heard it would be a specific purpose contract, I am still not sure if this is worth leaving a permanent public sector job with a local authority. I am currently earning €44,574 for a 37hr week (approx. €23.09 per hour) and from July 1st I would be earning €45,975 for a 35hr week (approx. €25.17 per hour) so for a 39hr week at a TU I think I fair starting salary would be in the €46,988.61 - €51,221.45 range. I suppose I will have to check with the HR department to see if the TU has any plans on reducing their 39hr week in July as part of the ending of the 2013 Haddington Road Agreement.

The whole thing is very bizarre, the TU advertised these roles in January and conducted the interviews in late February. Yet despite already having done this recent recruitment process, I have noticed that in late March they again are advertising the same role that I am being offered so I am wondering if it is worth applying again to see if I'd place 1st on the panel this time and maybe get offered a permanent contract instead of a specified purpose contract.


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## Salvadore (2 Apr 2022)

PoundMan said:


> Yet despite already having done this recent recruitment process, I have noticed that in late March they again are advertising the same role that I am being offered so I am wondering if it is worth applying again to see if I'd place 1st on the panel this time and maybe get offered a permanent contract instead of a specified purpose contract.



Does the advertisement refer to permanent or specific purpose contracts?

On the issue of starting salary, you’re always free to establish a bottom line on the basis of current salary and to negotiate on that basis. 

As you’ve suggested, you’re ultimately passing up long term job security for what might be a short term gain. It’s ultimately your call.


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## PoundMan (2 Apr 2022)

Salvadore said:


> Does the advertisement refer to permanent or specific purpose contracts?


They advert is identical the the same one that I only just interviewed for in late February, it states:

*"Contract Type: Permanent - candidates may be placed on a panel to which further full-time (fixed term/specific purpose) posts may apply."*


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## Salvadore (2 Apr 2022)

That looks confusing. It would be worth getting clarification from the employing body. 

A series of fixed term/specific purpose contracts doesn’t convey permanency.


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## PoundMan (1 Jun 2022)

So the TU have offered me a starting salary of €47,412 for a 39-hour working week on a 2.5yr specified purpose contract.

I am currently on €45,975 for a 35-hour working week with a Local Authority (County Council) so the role with the TU would actually be a pay cut in terms of hourly wages from €25.17 net per hour to €23.30 net per hour.

It would take me 9 years to reach the top of the scale (€53,453) in my existing role, but if I took the job with the TU then I would be earning €53,213 after only 3 years. I am currently a grade 5 at the Local Authority and the role with the TU is a grade 6, but at the top of it's scale (€65,228) is actually the equivalent of a grade 7 role LSI1 at the Local Authority so the TU's clearly offer significantly better salaries than most of the other public sector employers. In my existing role my transport/commuting costs including fuel/wear&tear is around €107 per month, whilst at the TU this expense would increase significantly to around €312 per month so in reality it would be around 4 years before my actual take-home pay would be higher in the TU vs the Local Authority. A potential option could be to go down the taxsaver commuter public transport route at a cost of around €117 per month but I'm not sure if I fancy that having always commuted by car my entire career.

HR at the TU have informed me of the following:

*"Someone on a specific purpose contract can’t be made permanent. For someone on a specific purpose contract, the contract can be extended, if the duration of the “specific purpose” is extended but it doesn’t change the nature of the contract. Another type of contract is a fixed term renewable contract, and such a contract can be renewed and can, under certain circumstances, lead to what is called a contract of indefinite duration. However permanent vacancies have to be advertised and filled by competition. The contract you have been offered is a specified purpose contract with an expected duration of 2.5 years. This contract will come to an end when the purpose ends and would never become a permanent contract. Should the position become available on a permanent basis then you would need to apply for it under those conditions."*

The TU seems like a better option in terms of future earnings and career prospects but my biggest concern is that I'm not sure it is wise to give up the security of a permanent job for a specified purpose contract so I'm leaning towards staying where I'm at and then try for the TU again in future if a permanent role comes up.



I would be keen to hear some of your thoughts.


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## cremeegg (1 Jun 2022)

1. Get a bicycle
2. Stop nickel and dimeing the pay. If this job expands your career horizon, that is more important than the salary differences you mention.
3. Only you can balance the price of giving up the permanent job.


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## deanpark (1 Jun 2022)

I work in one of the TUs and it's a nice place to work and very flexible if you have kids etc. I'd forgotten that proper coffee breaks existed where you can sit down for 15-20 mins elevenses in a canteen!! I'd be a grade or two higher than you.

 If I were you, I don't think I would leave a fully permanent role though to take a 2.5 yr contract with no real uplift in earnings from day 1. If you jumped 8-10k more salary maybe it would be worth a punt but not for a tiny bit extra like you are talking about.


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## Feemar5 (1 Jun 2022)

Depending on your age and family committments I would not think increasing your commute time is advisable at the present as fuel costs are going up every week at the moment.   Do you like where you work ? - if so I would be inclinded to stay as a permanent, pensionable job is not easy to come by.  I wouldn't advise giving it up for a specific purpose contract.   However if you fancy a challenge and have no family committments it could be worth a try.   Good luck.


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## Salvadore (2 Jun 2022)

Unless the position offered has the potential to make you more employable generally, I don’t see any upside. It’s been made clear that the job isn’t permanent.

It depends on your attitude towards potentially  being let go in a couple of years. (Are you even sure you would be entitled to increments in the circumstances?) if it came to it, would the extra income in the short term compensate for having to find a job in a couple of years?

These are questions only you can answer.


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