# Are Judgements followed abroad



## brightside (8 Jan 2011)

Hi All, another sorry tale I'm afraid, hopefully someone will have some advice or real experience that they can help out with.

My partner and I bought a property in Ireland close to the top of the market. Things got dodgy work wise and we left during the 'soft landing' (now that was an understatement). We rented the property and at the time the rent almost met the mortgage. 

Now three years down the track rental values have dropped by over 30% and we have dropped to one income abroad (due to having a child) and it is choking the life out of us to keep propping up the mortgage back in ireland.

If we are to sell or hand back the keys we are likely to still be in debt to the mortgage company to the tune of approx E150k for which I am led to believe they would take out a judgement against us. 

My question is has anyone any experience of the mortgage company following someone abroad for enforcement of a judgement. I believe they would have to apply to the courts here for the judgement to become legal here (Australia) and follow the laws of the land here for repayment etc.

If its any addition we dont own squat here either just a 10 yr old car and a small bit of savings which is rapidly heading down the celtic black hole.

The brightside - we still have good health and a shirt on our backs (for now

Thanks


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## thewatcher (8 Jan 2011)

If you have nothing , what are they going to come after ?. I wouldn't be coming back looking for a loan mind you !. There will be many cases of this over the next few years, an Aussie that worked with my sister and had bought a house , just up and left when the missus got pregnant and the 2 of them went home , leaving the house. I've read of a few cases of eastern Europeans who stripped their houses dry and sold everything  before they left. Reckless banks and all that..........


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## brightside (8 Jan 2011)

My worries are being forced into a payment plan over here for the shortfall plus costs, interest etc.


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## Bronte (10 Jan 2011)

Does the bank know where you live currently?


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## PaddyBloggit (10 Jan 2011)

What's your status in Oz?

Will you be coming back to Ireland?


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## brightside (11 Jan 2011)

I'm a resident here and have no plans to move back in the short or medium term

From my understanding of Judgements they lapse after 6 plus a possible extension of 6 more years.


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## Bronte (11 Jan 2011)

Many people on AAM have asked is it possible to run away from the debts. So far as I can gather if they don't know where you are you have a better chance of escaping particularly if it's a difficult country to go after one in or where the costs would outweigh the benefit to the bank. 150K is a lot. My guess is that in the next couple of years as more and more people default after having moved abroad the banks will start looking at places such as Oz particular if people have good jobs and assets. You probably should ask some of the Irish over there what they've done my guess is there is lots of them who've done what you propose (though smart people probably won't admit they've run away from debt) if you find out any information that is of relevance to other Irish people in your situation it would be great if you post it back. 

Have a look at the thread on AAM about well charging orders and instalment orders, also there is info on the citizens advice website and Mabs website. 

Alternatively you could talk to your bank about handing back the keys so they can sell the property quickly and easily (or try to get the bank to let you do it yourself) and then agreeing to repay the debt by negotiating a long term repayment of the negative equity to the bank at say the mortgage interest rate you have now. That way you won't be looking over your should for many years to come.


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## roker (11 Jan 2011)

Could you not be traced with your PRSI number of the country you go to?


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## Bronte (11 Jan 2011)

Your PRSI number is unique to Ireland.  You get a new number is a new country.  You can also play around with your name, deed poll, Irish version etc.


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## roker (12 Jan 2011)

That's what mean, can you be traced through your new number?


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## Bronte (12 Jan 2011)

How would they know your new number. How would they know which country you are in. 

So far we have not heard of creditors locating anyway abroad that I can think of? They can't get Michael Lynn and we all know where he is. Presumably he's in business legitimately where he is and not a bother on him. I'm sure there are many like him.


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## Pope John 11 (12 Jan 2011)

Brightside I wouldn't worry a bit about it. As far as I see it at this stage if the contractors can get away with their enormous debts, & still live in their rich pads & wine and dine like as if they have not debts to pay off, then I wouldn't be too concerned about your small €150,000. 

Corruption in this country is rife, & if you can't beat them, then joining them is no harm.


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## giles (13 Jan 2011)

Pope John 11 said:


> Corruption in this country is rife, & if you can't beat them, then joining them is no harm.


 
Its this attitude that has this country in the state its in now. If people paid their debts in the first place then we wounldn't have gone bust.

If the OP wants to run off and leave the Irish people with his/her debt then thats up to them but don't pat them on the back for it!!


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## Pope John 11 (13 Jan 2011)

giles said:


> Its this attitude that has this country in the state its in now. If people paid their debts in the first place then we wounldn't have gone bust



Wrong Giles. I don't know what papers you are reading & what news you are listening to. Its the corrupt government, the bankers & the large construction contractors that have us in this mess. Hence the combination of all three have this country bankrupt.

Are you trying to say that the ordinary tax paying citizen has made this country bust! I think you need to get your facts straight mate.

Of course it is the ordinary citizen in this country & their sons/daughters that will have to pay for past mistakes of the government, the bankers & the large construction contractors.

Yes previously I held a view that everyone needs to stand over their own debt, they bought into the property boom etc. However this has all since changed. 

If the bankers are not held accountable for wreckless lending, if the property developers and contractors are not held accountable for their wreckless borrowing & purchasing of over inflated prices & the government not held accountable for spurring on the property bubble etc with some other government ministers claiming exorbitant expenses, again no accountability.

If you need to know anything about accountability, read about bankers that have been jailed in America, & the politicians who will & have faced jail for their expense claims.

So I say to the OP, do what you have to do, but don't feel one bit guilty in doing whatever you have to do.


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## mf1 (13 Jan 2011)

I've never thought that the "well, everyone else is/was doing it" stacks up as an acceptable reason or justification for bad behaviour! 


mf


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## dereko1969 (13 Jan 2011)

Pope John 11 said:


> Wrong Giles. I don't know what papers you are reading & what news you are listening to. Its the corrupt government, the bankers & the large construction contractors that have us in this mess. Hence the combination of all three have this country bankrupt.
> 
> Are you trying to say that the ordinary tax paying citizen has made this country bust! I think you need to get your facts straight mate.
> 
> ...


 
All those who took out 100% mortgages share in the blame, as do those who bought houses to get on the ladder living somewhere they didn't want to. No-one forced them to buy, people need to start taking responsibility for their actions.


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## PaddyW (13 Jan 2011)

I took a 100% mortgage. Why should I take the blame? I'm paying back the debt that I owe, I've never missed a payment, nor do I plan to. So, why exactly should I share the blame when I borrowed well within my means? I'm sure I'm not the only one who took a 100% mortgage, but made sure it was well within their means to do so, even with stress testing to make sure they could afford it with any interest hikes. You can't tar us all with the same brush.


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## Bronte (13 Jan 2011)

I was listening to a pod cast of Mary Coughlin a while back about debt. It was very interesting listening to how the bank took her house and car and she was left with 20K IEP of debt (even though as far as I could figure out there was a surplus of 80K from the sale, which was taken in fees and penalties and legal costs) She tried to pay back the 20K over many many years as the debt increased and increased as the banks eventually chased her to the brink of prison. There is no end to what banks will do to you if they can. The nicey nicey approach currently on offer is all a smokescreen. 

Personally I don't care anymore what anyone does. Having learnt that Ireland is completely and utterly corrupt I have no faith in honest and fair dealings anymore, until that changes and we have a proper functionning democracy I'll not change my mind. Fool me once and all that....


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## horusd (13 Jan 2011)

This is a seriously fraught issue but I think there is shared moral responsibily. Borrowers who borrowed made decisions for which they are ultimately responsible. Yet who is to say that they borrowed "wrecklessly"? - that is a judgement call surely. If the rationale at the time was to buy now and get on  the ladder etc, then, although they bear responsibility ultimately for the decisions they made and the advice they took, some part of the responsibility is also shared by those who "pumped up" the market, like politicians, estate agents etc.  There is also a very plausible argument that lenders lent "wrecklessly" and share a greater responsibility, as they had access to greater knowledge and insight into the market and should have known better. In fact, their actions and policies drove the market unsustainably. Ipso facto they should carry at least some of the blame and the burden. Another factor in all of this is Ireland's hopelessly outdated bankruptcy legislation which leaves people facing up to 12 yrs of penury.  Given the impact of the debt crisis on "ordinary" people like the OP as opposed to developers & their wives ( or husbands), not to mention bankers who seem to be living in relative comfort, there does seem to be a lack of parity between wealthy and ordinary citizens.  The sheer lack of anyone walking the "perp walk" as we've seen in  the states and elsewhere doesn't add to the sense that we have  or live in an equal society.


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## ontour (13 Jan 2011)

Comparing a personal debt from debt accrued through corporate structures confuses people.  Much of the debt of developers is through companies and there are structures to liquidate those companies.  Developers who made personal guarantees are in many cases using the technical routes to extricate themselves such as declaring bankruptcy in the UK.

What would serve the OP much better is to investigate either settling with the lender for less than the outstanding amount or declaring bankruptcy in Australia or wherever it is most advantageous.

The lender is unlikely to agree to the property being sold unless they are happy with the plan to repay the balance.  By defaulting and letting the bank sell the property, the balance outstanding will likely be much bigger.

If there is a value to these debts, there will be companies who will be happy to buy them from the bank for a tiny fraction of the value and pursue the debt,  these companies are likely to become more and more interested in the Irish banks as the number of defaulters increase.


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## horusd (13 Jan 2011)

Agree with you ontour on the way in which to manage this from the OP's perspective.However, the nuances of difference between personal debt and company debt are in the main not seen as relevant by most citizens. There is a poisonous sentiment ( as clearly evidenced here) fuelled by a perception of deep and endemic unfairness in how debt & responsibility affects (and has affected) different groups in society, and also generally how the country is/has been run (arguably for the benefit of particular groups with unwarranted influence on the polictical system). Long-term this bodes ill for everyone. Any social contract between people in a state is based on a perception of equality underpinned by openness. This perception has been damaged (beyond repair? Hopefully not) by how the state and society have been managed. In a sense this is THE most prescient issue facing us all. Their is a deep malaise and wrong at the heart of our country that has resulted in the rejection of responsibility because it's not percieved as being an equal playing field for all. The entire basis of this society and political system needs a fundemental overall to reflect in ACTUALITY a fair, equal and just community.


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## Pope John 11 (13 Jan 2011)

mf1 said:


> I've never thought that the "well, everyone else is/was doing it" stacks up as an acceptable reason or justification for bad behaviour!
> mf



Nothing stacks up at present unfortunately.



dereko1969 said:


> All those who took out 100% mortgages share in the blame, as do those who bought houses to get on the ladder living somewhere they didn't want to. No-one forced them to buy, people need to start taking responsibility for their actions.



Banks share the blame here too. 100% mortgages should not have been handed out. Stress testing was definately below par. 




PaddyW said:


> I took a 100% mortgage. Why should I take the blame? I'm paying back the debt that I owe, I've never missed a payment, nor do I plan to. So, why exactly should I share the blame when I borrowed well within my means? I'm sure I'm not the only one who took a 100% mortgage, but made sure it was well within their means to do so, even with stress testing to make sure they could afford it with any interest hikes. You can't tar us all with the same brush.



Oh, but you are to blame and you are paying for it through extra taxes etc. Remember "We all partied", Brian Lenihan. What about the brickie who was in a permanent job, on €1,000 plus a week, stress tested to make sure he could afford his mortgage with any interest rate hikes, all well within his means, but is now unemployed?




Bronte said:


> Personally I don't care anymore what anyone does. Having learnt that Ireland is completely and utterly corrupt I have no faith in honest and fair dealings anymore, until that changes and we have a proper functionning democracy I'll not change my mind. Fool me once and all that....



I feel the same way as you Bronte, well said




horusd said:


> Given the impact of the debt crisis on "ordinary" people like the OP as opposed to developers & their wives ( or husbands), not to mention bankers who seem to be living in relative comfort, there does seem to be a lack of parity between wealthy and ordinary citizens.  The sheer lack of anyone walking the "perp walk" as we've seen in  the states and elsewhere doesn't add to the sense that we have  or live in an equal society.



Great post Horusd




ontour said:


> Comparing a personal debt from debt accrued through corporate structures confuses people.  Much of the debt of developers is through companies and there are structures to liquidate those companies.  Developers who made personal guarantees are in many cases using the technical routes to extricate themselves such as declaring bankruptcy in the UK.



Not comparing personal debt to corporate structure debt here. The personal debt of the ordinary citizen has risen to account for the wreckless corporate debt taken on by developers.



horusd said:


> Agree with you ontour on the way in which to manage this from the OP's perspective.However, the nuances of difference between personal debt and company debt are in the main not seen as relevant by most citizens. There is a poisonous sentiment ( as clearly evidenced here) fuelled by a perception of deep and endemic unfairness in how debt & responsibility affects (and has affected) different groups in society, and also generally how the country is/has been run (arguably for the benefit of particular groups with unwarranted influence on the polictical system). Long-term this bodes ill for everyone. ………….
> 
> Their is a deep malaise and wrong at the heart of our country that has resulted in the rejection of responsibility because it's not percieved as being an equal playing field for all. The entire basis of this society and political system needs a fundemental overall to reflect in ACTUALITY a fair, equal and just community.



Point 1
Unfortunately there is only one poisonous chalice which was in the hands of the developers, government & banks, but its now being passed on to the ordinary citizens of this country, and to all unborn citizens of this country.

Point 2
Agree with your 2nd point.


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## horusd (13 Jan 2011)

Pope John Paul 11 I had overlooked the impact on the unborn which you pointed out. That for me is perhaps the most sickening aspect of this.  It's bad enough for us but what a terrible legacy to leave to our descendants.  It makes the whole need to re-invent this society all the more urgent. We surely have left them (and us) in serious hock, the least we can do is try and fix the system.  That's why I feel we cannot walk away from this issue, despite being heart-sick at the sight of it. We owe ourselves the job of repairing it. If  I hear one more politician/pundit sighing that  " we are where we are...."  as if there is NOTHING we can do I'll go nuts.


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## dereko1969 (13 Jan 2011)

PaddyW said:


> I took a 100% mortgage. Why should I take the blame? I'm paying back the debt that I owe, I've never missed a payment, nor do I plan to. So, why exactly should I share the blame when I borrowed well within my means? I'm sure I'm not the only one who took a 100% mortgage, but made sure it was well within their means to do so, even with stress testing to make sure they could afford it with any interest hikes. You can't tar us all with the same brush.


 
Correct and apologies, my ire was directed at those who really stretched themselves with a 100% mortgages and were immediately in trouble with repaying and who are now moaning about it.


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## PaddyW (13 Jan 2011)

Pope John 11 said:


> Oh, but you are to blame and you are paying for it through extra taxes etc. Remember "We all partied", Brian Lenihan. What about the brickie who was in a permanent job, on €1,000 plus a week, stress tested to make sure he could afford his mortgage with any interest rate hikes, all well within his means, but is now unemployed?



I took out a mortgage of 96k. It wasn't with an Irish owned bank either, so I'd prefer not to be lumped in with others who over borrowed


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## Brendan Burgess (13 Jan 2011)

Original question answered. 

Discuss the broader issues in a new post if you like.

Brendan


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