# Eligibility for 65 yr. payment.



## Grueler (24 Oct 2021)

Will I be eligible to draw the 65 yr payment if I am in receipt of an ARF?


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## Shirazman (24 Oct 2021)

If you have enough PRSI contributions then yes.    

But if you're referring to the State Contributory Pension, then you'll have to wait until your 66th birthday.


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## Conan (24 Oct 2021)

But you will be able to draw the Payment for 65 year olds, between 65 and 66 (assuming you have sufficient PRSI stamps). This is the same amount as the Jobseekers Benefit. And then at 66 you will presumably qualify for the State Retirement Pension.


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## Grueler (26 Oct 2021)

Yes, I should have no problem with the PRSI stamps, I was just worried the ARF might disqualify me.
Thanks for the clarification.


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## elcato (27 Oct 2021)

Conan said:


> But you will be able to draw the Payment for 65 year olds, between 65 and 66 (assuming you have sufficient PRSI stamps).


I presume for the 1 year in question here that the sufficient PRSI stamps one requires to get employment benifit for any one year during their working life ? or is it dependent on whether you have enough stamps for a full pension ?


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## bstop (27 Oct 2021)

You need to be careful to ensure that you meet the PRSI requirements for the governing year. This is the year you reach the age of 63.

If you have an ARF you can qualify if you get 52 S class contributions for the governing year. Otherwise if you are retired and claiming A class credits you will need at least 26 credits and 13 paid A class contributions for the governing year. 

There is flexibility regarding the year the 13 A class paid contributions can be made. This is explained on Revenue website. 

If you are older than 63 and have less than 52 S class or 39 A class contributions for your governing year you have missed the opportunity to claim this 65 year olds' payment. If you are retired before age 63 and claiming A class credits you will need to get 13 weeks of employment in order to get the 13 paid contributions..


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## Sue Ellen (28 Oct 2021)

This previous thread from AAM makes interesting reading and confirms that contributions needs to be thoroughly checked out as bstop mentions above.

Some relevant rules and regulations:

Benefit Payment for 65 year olds

Citizens' Information - payment for people who retire at 65


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## wallym (22 Dec 2021)

I'm looking at retiring early and the previous thread's last link is very helpful to explain the rules around the governing year. It indicates a flexability to the paid 13 weeks as mentioned by bstop, and if the 13 paid are not available for the governing year, can use other years as indicated by the astrix. Anyone agree or disagree? Its the most confusing conditional requirements test I've read. I just want to be sure I qualify before I move to retirement!

Taken from the "Citizens' Information - payment for people who retire at 65" link

*If you do not have 13 paid contributions in the governing contribution year, you must have paid 13 contributions in any of the following years:


The 2 years before the governing contribution year
The last complete governing contribution year
The current governing contribution year


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## Sue Ellen (22 Dec 2021)

wallym said:


> Anyone agree or disagree? Its the most confusing conditional requirements test I've read. I just want to be sure I qualify before I move to retirement!



@wallym 

To be sure, to be sure it is best to contact them and confirm your eligibility before going any further.  This is their advice:

'Should you have any queries in relation to your pension entitlements, please contact Pension Section on 0818 200 400 or visit the relevant page on the Department’s website at:

https://www.gov.ie/en/service/e6f908-state-pension-contributory/#how-to-qualify. 

Alternatively, you may wish to contact your local Intreo Centre, Citizens Information Centre or you may write to the Pension Section at the following address: State Pension (Contributory) Section, DSP, College Road, Co. Sligo'


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## bstop (22 Dec 2021)

The wording is clearer on the mygov.ie website.


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## Shirazman (23 Dec 2021)

Although meeting the requirements for this payment I was recently turned down on the basis that I was "in employment" due to my investment income.


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## bstop (23 Dec 2021)

You could try appealing the decision on the basis that it is subsidiary employment.


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## Up Rovers (23 Dec 2021)

Shirazman said:


> Although meeting the requirements for this payment I was recently turned down on the basis that I was "in employment" due to my investment income.



@Shirazman

How can that be either you are unemployed or not which surely should meet their criteria?

Would have to agree with bstop that you should appeal that decision.

Am thinking of applying for this payment in the new year and beginning to wonder about the whole thing really.  Have contacted the Helpline and been referred to my local Intreo office who I was told deal with these payments.  Did you have to deal with them?  Can't contact them on phone so thinking of trying to make an appointment by e-mail and see if I qualify.

 I know it can be applied for, if straightforward application, on the mygovid.ie website.


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## Shirazman (23 Dec 2021)

Up Rovers said:


> @Shirazman
> 
> How can that be either you are unemployed or not which surely should meet their criteria?
> 
> ...



I pay Class S PRSI on my investment income which, according to the Deciding Officer, means that I am "in employment". 

Too late to appeal now, the 21 days' period is long gone.    

I applied online through MyGov, adding a note that informed them that I had ARF income.


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## Shirazman (23 Dec 2021)

bstop said:


> You could try appealing the decision on the basis that it is subsidiary employment.



Thanks, but as mentioned above, I'm past the appeal deadline.   I only applied because you kindly made me aware of the payment, so I wasn't too put out when I was refused.    Anyway, I'll be getting my Contrib State Pension in a few weeks' time, so I'll leave the hare sit.


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## bstop (23 Dec 2021)

Shirazman said:


> I pay Class S PRSI on my investment income which, according to the Deciding Officer, means that I am "in employment".


I also started to pay S class on investment income. Before this I registered as a job seeker to get A class credits. When I started paying S class I phoned social welfare to inform them, as I presumed I would no longer quality for A credits. I was told that I was still eligible to sign on for A credits and the welfare officer told me that they always encourage people to keep signing on for credits.

So my current position is that I am registered as a job seeker which I presume is the same as registered unemployed and I have an Investment income on which I pay S class, which as you were told would mean that I am "in employment".

It seems to me that the only way this could be explained is if the investment income is considered as subsidiary employment.

Were you signing on for A credits?


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## Grueler (23 Dec 2021)

Just to update, I turned 65 on the 20th of December and applied online for 65yr payment on the 22nd. Got notification on the 23rd
that my application had been awarded and 1st payment on Dec. 30th. Brilliant service, very simple application, and very quick decision,
well done to all concerned.


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## Shirazman (23 Dec 2021)

bstop said:


> Were you signing on for A credits?



Couldn't as I had been playing Class D before my retirement.


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## bstop (23 Dec 2021)

Shirazman said:


> Couldn't as I had been playing Class D before my retirement.


Okay, so you were not registered as a job seeker and considered unemployed. Maybe then you could not claim your "investment employment" as subsidiary employment.

I have sent an email to Welfare to enquire if I will qualify.
I phoned today and asked if investment income would be considered as "employment" and prevent me from qualifying and the welfare official didn't seem to think it would. She basically said that that the payment was not means tested.

I had presumed that I would qualify but your experience has made me unsure.
The qualifying criteria for the payment are confusing to say the least and as it is a relatively new payment, I would wonder if all the Deciding Officers in the different Intreo centers are applying the same rules.


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## bstop (23 Dec 2021)

Up Rovers said:


> Can't contact them on phone so thinking of trying to make an appointment by e-mail and see if I qualify.


You can email your local Intreo center with your qualification queries and the Deciding Officer will reply to you.


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## Shirazman (24 Dec 2021)

bstop said:


> Okay, so you were not registered as a job seeker and considered unemployed. Maybe then you could not claim your "investment employment" as subsidiary employment.
> 
> I have sent an email to Welfare to enquire if I will qualify.
> I phoned today and asked if investment income would be considered as "employment" and prevent me from qualifying and the welfare official didn't seem to think it would. She basically said that that the payment was not means tested.
> ...



I probably should have appealed it, but didn't feel sufficiently aggrieved about it to bother as I was already 9 months into my 65th year!    

(It was someone in my local Intreo office who wrote to me with the decision.)


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## Freelance (24 Dec 2021)

Shirazman said:


> I pay Class S PRSI on my investment income which, according to the Deciding Officer, means that I am "in employment".





bstop said:


> I also started to pay S class on investment income.


Shirazman/bstop. 

May I ask if by "investment Income" you mean the distribution/drawdown from an ARF or some other form of Investments ?

Thanks


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## Freelance (24 Dec 2021)

Sue Ellen said:


> Some relevant rules and regulations:
> 
> Operational Guidelines: (State Pension Transition)


Hi Sue Ellen

The guidelines you link to refer to the State Pension (Transition) which was abolished on 1st Jan 2014 and which operated under different legislation and rules. The Operational Guidelines for the current scheme, known as the Benefit Payment for 65 Year Olds are here:

Operational Guidelines: Benefit Payment for 65 Year Olds


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## Freelance (24 Dec 2021)

Sue Ellen said:


> @wallym
> 
> To be sure, to be sure it is best to contact them and confirm your eligibility before going any further.  This is their advice:
> 
> ...


What you are suggesting here (contact Social Welfare and ask them to clarify your entitlements) sounds like a perfectly reasonable course of action, that might seem obvious to any reasonable woman or man. Unfortunately it's Social Protection we are talking about and reasonable doesn't enter into the equation. I made a couple of attempts to clarify my entitlements over the phone which proved futile. I took to the written route, providing them with my details. the first three response to my very specific questions were met with a cut and paste form the website. I pursued them and finally received the following (this is a copy and paste form the response)



> The Department cannot provide information on possible future state pension entitlements, or comment on individual pension planning enquiries. It is important to note that pension entitlement can only be assessed on the basis of the eligibility conditions applicable on the date an individual reaches pension age.



I contacted Citizens Information and while the person on the phone was very helpful, the response was interspersed with "you should', "I think", "probably", etc, which didn't provide me with any real assurance regarding my entitlements.


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## Shirazman (24 Dec 2021)

Freelance said:


> I contacted Citizens Information and while the person on the phone was very helpful, the response was interspersed with "you should', "I think", "probably", etc, which didn't provide me with any real assurance regarding my entitlements.



Citizens Information staff and volunteers have been strongly advised by Head Office not to provide pensions forecasts due to the ongoing uncertainty regarding the promised changes in legislation which have yet to materialise.   The concern is that what turns out to be incorrect advice might be provided in good faith, leading to a potential loss of credibility for the organisation and, given the willingness of _some_ Irish lawyers to claim for anything under the sun, possible litigation.     

As to your question regarding Investment Income.   I am liable to pay Class S PRSI on both the annual imputed distribution from my ARF and on the small amount of deposit interest that I receive from various sources.    But perhaps if I had been signing on for Class A credits, I might have been OK.   I'll never know!


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## Sue Ellen (24 Dec 2021)

Freelance said:


> Hi Sue Ellen
> 
> The guidelines you link to refer to the State Pension (Transition) which was abolished on 1st Jan 2014 and which operated under different legislation and rules. The Operational Guidelines for the current scheme, known as the Benefit Payment for 65 Year Olds are here:
> 
> Operational Guidelines: Benefit Payment for 65 Year Olds



@Freelance 

Thanks for that correction.  I have amended my original post to include the new operational guidelines.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (26 Dec 2021)

I had a niche PRSI query which was not answered online and receiving vague answers from DSP staff.

I got my TD to ask a written parliamentary question and it was answered very clearly within a week.


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## Up Rovers (5 Jan 2022)

bstop said:


> You can email your local Intreo center with your qualification queries and the Deciding Officer will reply to you.



Thanks bstop.

Sent an email and awaiting reply.  Do you have any idea how long it is taking at the moment for a reply in light of Covid?  Tried since before Christmas to ring them but no reply from the Intreo office.


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## bstop (5 Jan 2022)

I got through to Intreo in Dun Laoghaire on the phone before Christmas. I was told to email the Intreo enquiries address to ask my specific question.I don't know how long they take to reply.
I have read the guidelines and they state that subsidiary income must be a maximum of 7500 euro to qualify. I have investment income above this level so I am assuming that I will be told that I will not qualify.
I am now exploring the possibility of qualifying for Job seekers benefit for 6 months, to run until beyond my 65th birthday and then continuing to receive the payment to age 66.The qualifying conditions for Job seekers benefit are different to that of the Payment to 65 year olds. They allow subsidiary income of more than 7500 euro if I have 117 employment Prsi contributions paid in respect of the subsidiary employment for either the last 3 years or the last 3 complete contribution years immediately prior to the date of the job seekers claim.
I will need to get employment for 6 months and get 26 paid A Prsi contributions.


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## Clonback (6 Jan 2022)

Why is the subsidiary income ceiling 7500 euro whereas the contributory pension is not means tested?


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## bstop (6 Jan 2022)

Clonback said:


> Why is the subsidiary income ceiling 7500 euro whereas the contributory pension is not means tested?


That's anybody's guess. My belief is its to limit the over 65s payment to as few people as possible.


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## joebloggs9669 (6 Jan 2022)

Sorry to add any further confusion to this thread but did we establish with any certainty if someone retired on an ARF (Paying greater than 7.5K PA) and paying the Class S stamp in the relevant year would qualify for this payment?

many thanks

Joe


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## Shirazman (6 Jan 2022)

joebloggs9669 said:


> Sorry to add any further confusion to this thread but did we establish with any certainty if someone retired on an ARF (Paying greater than 7.5K PA) and paying the Class S stamp in the relevant year would qualify for this payment?
> 
> many thanks
> 
> Joe



We established that one such applicant didn't make the cut.


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## rum and black (7 Jan 2022)

Do you need a public service card to apply for this payment. Partner self employed and  not working this past few months, not signing on either.
Was 65 in early December. We have rental income . MIght this disqualify him. He has just applied on 24th December  for the public service card but awaiting them to get back to him. Intro have acknowledged he has requested an appointment to get the card.   Any ideas how long this process takes and can you apply for over 65 payment without it. Who do you apply to for the payment please.


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## Clonback (15 Jan 2022)

Not necessary to have a public service card.Did you get approval?


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## Up Rovers (15 Jan 2022)

bstop said:


> You can email your local Intreo center with your qualification queries and the Deciding Officer will reply to you.



@bstop  Did you receive a reply yet to your query that you appear to have sent before Christmas.  I sent an email two weeks ago and no reply.  With things being the way they are with Covid I'm not holding out much hope or holding my breath


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## bstop (15 Jan 2022)

Up Rovers said:


> @bstop  Did you receive a reply yet to your query that you appear to have sent before Christmas.  I sent an email two weeks ago and no reply.  With things being the way they are with Covid I'm not holding out much hope or holding my breath


No reply yet.


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## Up Rovers (23 Jan 2022)

bstop said:


> No reply yet.



@bstop 
Only heard recently that the offices are open and you can go in and queue up so this might be the quicker option for you.


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## Clonback (1 Feb 2022)

Any further feedback on the criteria for this payment?


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## rum and black (1 Feb 2022)

I have applied and received a reply seeking further information. I am self employed, 65 since December and have had very little income due to inability to work ( as unwell and refused illness benefit in 2018) and due to lockdowns etc during  covid.. 
They are seeking information on my business as in did I sell it, how much I received and when did I receive it.
They have indicated that my income from 2019 and 2020 was 100% from unearned income. I have rental income and yes this is true for 2019 as I was unable to work but not for 2020 or 2021.  My income for 2020 is offset against expenses ( a van I had purchased prior to becoming ill in 2018).

I contacted Pension office in Sligo today as they had recently sent me a detailed record of contributions which are "S" every year since 1988. They assure me these are eligible for COAP next year so fingers crossed.

I would willingly pay for advice from someone who understands the system if anyone could make a recommendation.
I am thinking now I will not be eligible as  my rental income is approx 35000.

So if anyone has clear advice on whether rental income impacts this payment if on Class S contribution I would be glad to  know. Also as  all of my income in 2019 is from unearned income  should I just reapply from January 2022 where my 2020 income may be considered.

Thanks in advance


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## Clonback (1 Feb 2022)

The COAP is not means tested so you should qualify  based on S contributions from 1988.It may be slightly reduced and that depends on your contributions prior to 1988.
As for the 65th year payment it would be nice to hear from people who have already qualified.


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## rum and black (1 Feb 2022)

Clonback said:


> The COAP is not means tested so you should qualify  based on S contributions from 1988.It may be slightly reduced and that depends on your contributions prior to 1988.


Thats good to know. No record of contributions received prior to 1988. I worked in a small family business from circa 1973 when I was 16/17 until 1984 when my dad passed away. I then became self employed.  The only paperwork I can find was for some levy so I have no idea what was paid for those years and hope it wont be too much of a problem

In relation to the over 65 payment it would be good to hear from anyone with class S and rental income if you received it.

I also note that in the case of class S it appears no credits are given for this year which is also disappointing for those who have not got 40 years contributions.


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## bstop (2 Feb 2022)

The guidelines state that subsidiary employment income must be a maximum of 7500 euro to qualify. You might be considered as having subsidiary employment of 35000 euro which would disqualify you from receiving the payment.
Did you originally inform them of your rental income?
If you did l would have thought that they would have immediately rejected your claim.
Please tell us what the final outcome is.


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## Clonback (2 Feb 2022)

bstop said:


> The guidelines state that subsidiary employment income must be a maximum of 7500 euro to qualify. You might be considered as having subsidiary employment of 35000 euro which would disqualify you from receiving the payment.
> Did you originally inform them of your rental income?
> If you did l would have thought that they would have immediately rejected your claim.
> There would be no point reapplying in 2022 as the governing year would remain the same. It is the year of your 63rd birthday.
> Please tell us what the final outcome is.


Where did you get the guidelines from please?


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## bstop (2 Feb 2022)

See post #7 by Sue Ellen further back on this thread.
She has a link to the guidelines.


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## bstop (2 Feb 2022)

rum and black said:


> I have applied and received a reply seeking further information. I am self employed, 65 since December and have had very little income due to inability to work ( as unwell and refused illness benefit in 2018) and due to lockdowns etc during  covid..
> They are seeking information on my business as in did I sell it, how much I received and when did I receive it.
> They have indicated that my income from 2019 and 2020 was 100% from unearned income. I have rental income and yes this is true for 2019 as I was unable to work but not for 2020 or 2021.  My income for 2020 is offset against expenses ( a van I had purchased prior to becoming ill in 2018).
> 
> ...



The following are the details of prsi K class.

PRSI Class K
Certain public office holders pay PRSI at a rate of 4% on all income, 
where their income is over €5,200 a year. They should be returned at 
Class K. Public office holders with weekly income of €100 or less should 
be returned at Class M.
Class K also applies to the additional earned self-employed income from 
a trade or profession of a modified rate contributor, for example, civil 
and public servants recruited prior to 6 April 1995, and on any unearned 
income they may have. This income is liable to a 4% PRSI charge.
Class K may also apply to the unearned income of employed contributors
and occupational pensioners, whether the pension arises from the 
person’s own employment or the employment of their spouse or civil 
partner, under pensionable age, currently 66 years, where this is the 
only additional income. This means that unearned income such as rental 
income, investment income, dividends and interest on deposits and 
savings may be liable to a 4% PRSI charge.


For any years where your only earnings were rental income you were subject to S class on the rental income.

For any years that you had self employed income and your only other source of income was rental income then for that year your rental income was subject to class K. 

If you can manage some self employed work in your 65 year then you might be able to avoid being considered as employed for your rental income as it would be classed as K rather than S class for prsi.

If you can no longer be self employed, you could get employment for 1 week at A class prsi and this would also result in your rental income being subject to K class prsi.


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## rum and black (2 Feb 2022)

bstop said:


> The guidelines state that subsidiary employment income must be a maximum of 7500 euro to qualify. You might be considered as having subsidiary employment of 35000 euro which would disqualify you from receiving the payment.
> Did you originally inform them of your rental income?
> If you did l would have thought that they would have immediately rejected your claim.
> Please tell us what the final outcome is.


Hi Bstop,
No I didn't tell them I had rental income because from memory  the form I filled out online did not ask about  other income just the date you ceased employment. My rental income is fully declared but I don't consider it part of my everyday employment. I did not think this was a means tested payment or otherwise I would not have applied  as I would have known I was not eligible.  I did not see anything in the guidelines about subsidiary employment of 7500 euro and call me foolish but I probably would have assumed that meant employment not rental income. Clearly I have a lot to learn!!!


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## rum and black (2 Feb 2022)

bstop said:


> The following are the details of prsi K class.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 So am I understanding you correctly when I say.

If I only have rental income its class S
If I have rental income and self employment income my self employment is class S and my rental income is class K. I havent noticed any other class on my statement at any time.

Apologies as I am not understanding why it is important to have it classed as K rather than S.

Unlightly to have any self employment this year and wouldn't even know where to begin looking for class A as I am  self employed all my life.

Thanks for your input. I am learning a lot but probably too late for me.


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## ClubMan (2 Feb 2022)

Not sure why some people are posting stuff that doesn't look relevant. You seem to have class S contributions from 1988 up to now? That should qualify you for the State Pension (Contributory) in part or full. See here for the PRSI requirements:





						State Pension (Contributory)
					

The State Pension (Contributory), previously called the Old Age (Contributory) Pension, is payable to people aged 66 and over who have worked and paid enough social insurance contributions.




					www.citizensinformation.ie


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## bstop (3 Feb 2022)

ClubMan said:


> Not sure why some people are posting stuff that doesn't look relevant.


It has been reasonably established that a person with earnings of over 7500 euro classed as S Prsi is considered as being in employment.
What I am trying to establish is, would a person with investment income over 7500 euro classed as K Prsi be also considered as being in employment. If this person is also considered as in employment then the Payment for 65's is effectively means tested as bank interest or dividends over 7500 euro would disqualify them from the payment.

A person with investment income only is subject to S class Prsi.
A person with even just one A class Prsi contribution in any tax year who also has investment income is subject to K class on the investment income.

So would a person with over 7500 euro in investment income and one A class contribution qualify for the over 65's payment ?


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## ClubMan (3 Feb 2022)

rum and black said:


> I contacted Pension office in Sligo today as they had recently sent me a detailed record of contributions which are "S" every year since 1988. They assure me these are eligible for COAP next year so fingers crossed.


I don't know why you're mentioning class K at all when they posted the above earlier in the thread.


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## Clonback (3 Feb 2022)

bstop said:


> See post #7 by Sue Ellen further back on this thread.
> She has a link to the guidelines.


Sorry but I cant see the relevant section re subsidiary income cant be greater than 7500e.


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## euroDilbert (3 Feb 2022)

Clonback said:


> Sorry but I cant see the relevant section re subsidiary income cant be greater than 7500e.


It's on this page :






						Operational Guidelines: Benefit Payment for 65 Year Olds
					






					www.gov.ie
				




scroll down or search the page for "subsidiary"


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## Freelance (4 Feb 2022)

Can I focus on the actual topic of this thread, specifically The Benefit Payment for 65 Year Olds (not the COAP). In the first post the OP asked "Will I be eligible to draw the 65 yr payment if I am in receipt of an ARF?". While there have been quite a few conflicting answers, it appears to me based on what I am reading here that the answer may be Yes or No, depending on whether or not the ARF distribution exceeds €7,500 pa.

This appears to be highly discriminatory towards ARF holders. Let's take a simple case of a 65 year old who satisfies the PRSI requirements, and who does not have rental/other investment income, or an actual paid working job (subsidiary employment)

If the above individual is paid €25,000 from a Defined Benefit pension scheme, then she/he qualifies for the Benefit Payment for 65 Year Olds
If the above individual is paid €25,000 from an annuity purchased form a DC pension scheme, then she/he qualifies for the Benefit Payment for 65 Year Olds
If the above individual is paid €25,000 from an ARF purchased from a DC pension scheme, then she/he does not qualify for the Benefit Payment for 65 Year Olds
Is this correct ?
Does anybody dispute that this is discriminatory ?


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## Grueler (4 Feb 2022)

Freelance said:


> Can I focus on the actual topic of this thread, specifically The Benefit Payment for 65 Year Olds (not the COAP). In the first post the OP asked "Will I be eligible to draw the 65 yr payment if I am in receipt of an ARF?". While there have been quite a few conflicting answers, it appears to me based on what I am reading here that the answer may be Yes or No, depending on whether or not the ARF distribution exceeds €7,500 pa.
> 
> This appears to be highly discriminatory towards ARF holders. Let's take a simple case of a 65 year old who satisfies the PRSI requirements, and who does not have rental/other investment income, or an actual paid working job (subsidiary employment)
> 
> ...


When I applied I was receiving €20,000 from an ARF purchased from a DC pension scheme and got confirmation of eligibility within a few days.


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## Conan (4 Feb 2022)

Having read the relevant section on MyGov, I cannot see any reference to €7,500 income from an ARF.


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## bstop (4 Feb 2022)

Grueler said:


> When I applied I was receiving €20,000 from an ARF purchased from a DC pension scheme and got confirmation of eligibility within a few days.


Good! so that answers the question regarding ARF income.

It appears that investment income classed at Prsi S class over 7500 euro per year might be a problem as Welfare seem to consider this as employment.

Investment income can also be classed at Prsi K class as I have explained previously. This might not be considered as employment as (self employment) Prsi S class does not apply.

I have asked a T.D. to put the following questions to the Social Protection Minister.

Would a person with an ARF distribution of over 7500 euro per year qualify ?

Would a person with investment income over 7500 euro per year subject to PRSI class S qualify?

Would a person with investment income over 7500 euro per year subject to PRSI class K qualify?

In each case the person satisfies all Prsi contribution requirements.


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## Freelance (30 Mar 2022)

bstop said:


> I have asked a T.D. to put the following questions to the Social Protection Minister.
> 
> Would a person with an ARF distribution of over 7500 euro per year qualify ?



Hi @bstop 

Did you ever get an answer to the above from your TD - I am specifically interested in whether or not an individual with an ARF distribution of over 7500 euro per year qualifies for the Benefit Payment for 65 Year Olds

Thank you


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## bstop (11 Apr 2022)

Freelance said:


> Hi @bstop
> 
> Did you ever get an answer to the above from your TD - I am specifically interested in whether or not an individual with an ARF distribution of over 7500 euro per year qualifies for the Benefit Payment for 65 Year Olds
> 
> Thank you



This is the reply to the written parliamentary questions asked on by behalf by Neale Richmond T.D.










						Social Welfare Code
					

Social Welfare Code Dáil Éireann Debate, Tuesday - 5 April 2022



					www.oireachtas.ie


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## Freelance (11 Apr 2022)

@bstop thank you very much for sharing that. It confirms my worst fears.


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## Freelance (11 Apr 2022)

So going back to my post of 4th February, this appears to be highly discriminatory towards ARF holders. Let's take a simple case of a 65 year old who satisfies the PRSI requirements, and who does not have rental/other investment income, or an actual paid working job (subsidiary employment)

If the above individual is paid €25,000 from a Defined Benefit pension scheme, then she/he qualifies for the Benefit Payment for 65 Year Olds
If the above individual is paid €25,000 from an annuity purchased form a DC pension scheme, then she/he qualifies for the Benefit Payment for 65 Year Olds
If the above individual is paid €25,000 from an ARF purchased from a DC pension scheme, then she/he does not qualify for the Benefit Payment for 65 Year Olds
Is this correct ?
Does anybody dispute that this is discriminatory ?


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## NoRegretsCoyote (11 Apr 2022)

Freelance said:


> If the above individual is paid €25,000 from an annuity purchased form a DC pension scheme, then she/he qualifies for the Benefit Payment for 65 Year Olds


I wonder if you could get around this creatively. Say retire on your 65th birthday and buy an annuity that pays out for just one year. Does such a product exist?


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## Freelance (11 Apr 2022)

I started thinking creatively about ways around it, e.g. reducing the ARF payout for one year so that it is less then €7,500 etc. But this is beside the point. Why should I have to.

What I am trying to establish is whether or not I am correct when I say that this is blatantly discriminatory - treating one type of pension totally differently to another in a seemingly arbitrary manner.


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## michaelm (11 Apr 2022)

@Freelance Seems unfair alright.

@bstop reading your various posts in this thread and others, and the answer to you Dáil question, does my understanding below seem right?

1. one can get 52 Class S PRSI stamps by drawing monthly from an ARF
2. with ARF distributions over €7500 one is viewed as being in insurable employment therefore it follows that with a drawdown of less then €7500 one would not be viewed to be in insurable employment
3. therefore a governing year ARF drawdown of over €7500 would be required if one wanted to meet this requirement: "Have paid 52 PRSI *self-employment contributions* at Class S in the Governing Contribution Year."

I had previously surmised that an ARF drawdown of €12500 might be required in the governing year, as that would result in €500 being paid in PRSI which matches the minimum PRSI required under the voluntary PRSI scheme.


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## bstop (11 Apr 2022)

michaelm said:


> @Freelance Seems unfair alright.
> 
> @bstop reading your various posts in this thread and others, and the answer to you Dáil question, does my understanding below seem right?
> 
> ...


You will get 52 S stamps if you have an ARF and have 12 drawdowns per year i.e. 1 per month. You do not need to pay 500 euro per year in Prsi to get the 52 S stamps. It doesn't matter how small each monthly drawdown is.
For example if you had an ARF of 25000 euro and you drawdown the minimum 4% per year which is 83.33 euro per month, you will get 52 S stamps per year.


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## michaelm (11 Apr 2022)

Thanks for the reply, and I understand what you are saying.  The answer to your Dáil question said that with distributions over €7500 one is view as being in insurable employment.  The implication being that with drawdowns of less than €7500 one is not viewed as being in insurable employment. What I'm wondering is whether in your €83.33/month example the Class S stamps might not be viewed as PRSI *self-employment contributions* at Class S.


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## bstop (11 Apr 2022)

michaelm said:


> Thanks for the reply, and I understand what you are saying.  The answer to your Dáil question said that with distributions over €7500 one is view as being in insurable employment.  The implication being that with drawdowns of less than €7500 one is not viewed as being in insurable employment. What I'm wondering is whether in your €83.33/month example the Class S stamps might not be viewed as PRSI *self-employment contributions* at Class S.


Basically an S stamp is an S stamp it doesn't matter how you got it.
If you are paying S class Prsi you are considered as in insurable employment.
In my example the person is in insurable self employed with a yearly income of 1000 euro.
This person would qualify for the 65s payment as they have an income of less than 7500 euro per year.


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## bstop (12 Apr 2022)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> I wonder if you could get around this creatively. Say retire on your 65th birthday and buy an annuity that pays out for just one year. Does such a product exist?


It does exist, but only if you die on your 66th birthday.


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## michaelm (8 Jul 2022)

If one retires early, say 60, and is drawing an occupational pension (over 7500/year) and, I think, paying class S PRSI on that, will that not disqualify one from receiving the 65's payment?


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## Early Riser (8 Jul 2022)

michaelm said:


> If one retires early, say 60, and is drawing an occupational pension (over 7500/year) and, I think, paying class S PRSI on that, will that not disqualify one from receiving the 65's payment?


 Occupational pensions are Class M PRSI (currently zero). That will neither qualify you nor disqualify you.


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## cwc456 (8 Jul 2022)

Grueler said:


> Yes, I should have no problem with the PRSI stamps, I was just worried the ARF might disqualify me.
> Thanks for the clarification.


Yes, no problem getting the payment AND having an ARF. When I started my ARF shortly after I started getting the over 65 payment, I got a letter from the DSP saying that Revenue had informed them that I was getting a payment from Zurich Life. I then had to send a signed form back to the DSP to confirm that the payment was a pension and not employment (as if).


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## bstop (8 Jul 2022)

cwc456 said:


> Yes, no problem getting the payment AND having an ARF.


Are your ARF drawdowns less than 7500 euro per year.
An ARF drawdown less than 7500 euro per year doesn't disqualify you for the 65s payment


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## cwc456 (9 Jul 2022)

bstop said:


> Are your ARF drawdowns less than 7500 euro per year.
> An ARF drawdown less than 7500 euro per year doesn't disqualify you for the 65s payment


At that rate you should be OK with an ARF fund worth up to about 187.5K assuming you draw down 7500 euro as the imputed 4% per annum.


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## Yam1960 (28 Aug 2022)

Hi, trying to work out what is the " governing contribution year" for my wife. Her birthday is 31 December. Is the date taken from when you apply as opposed to your birthday year? If she applies on her birthday online, it would be 2023, but if she applied on 1st Jan, I assume it would be 2024. I ask, as she has an ARF, so we'd need to adjust the drawdown to come under the €7500, once we are clear on which year is GCY.

Many thanks


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## bstop (28 Aug 2022)

The governing year is the year when she reaches her 63rd birthday. 

It would not make any difference if she applies for the payment on her 65 birthday or at a later date. The 65s benefit payment will always apply from the date she reaches age 65.


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## Yam1960 (31 Aug 2022)

Many thanks *bstop*


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## wallym (23 Nov 2022)

Hi All, the statement from the Minster for social protection indicates that there is no 7500 limit for earnings if you have a total of 117 earnings in the previous 3 years before becoming unemployed. Does anyone know if that applies to ARF income, and is that 3 calendar years or years from the date of your 65th birthday. Great discussion so far, appreciate the help. Cheers, Wally...

"However, customers may continue to work in subsidiary employment while in receipt of Benefit Payment for 65 Year Olds, provided that the remuneration or profit from the occupation does not exceed €7,500 per annum or €144 on a weekly basis. Subsidiary employment is defined as work that could have been done while a person was in full-time employment and outside their normal working hours. *Where a person has more than 117 contributions in the 3 years prior to becoming unemployed there is no income limit applied*"


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## bstop (23 Nov 2022)

at least 117 employment contributions have been paid in respect of him or her in either the last 3 years or the last 3 complete contribution years immediately prior to the date of claim.
This is the wording for Jobseekers Benefit. This implies that it can be a time span of three years back from the claim or the previous three full contribution years. The wording in the "Operating Guidlines for 65s Benefit" for subsidiary employment is different to the wording in the "Operating Guidlines for Jobseekers Benefit" for subsidiary employment.

ARF income and investment or rental income are all classed as employment income so the ministers words should apply to all of these employments.

The ministers wording is also different to the wording in the 65s Benefit guidelines.
It is basically a confused mess. If I am not allowed the 65s Benefit I will be quoting the ministers version of qualification criteria.


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## murphaph1 (25 Nov 2022)

Rental income in excess of this €7,500 limit would also disqualify, correct?


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## bstop (25 Nov 2022)

The statement by the minister seems to imply that if you have  rental income for at least 117 weeks before the claim date then the 7500 euro limit does not apply.
The wording in the "Operational Guidlines for 65s benefit" states that you must have at least 117 weeks income before the claim date *and *income of less than 7500 euro.
The "Operating guidelines for Jobseekers Benefit" state that you must have 117 weeks income *or* income of less than 7500 euro. 
Is there a mistake in the wording of the 65s benefit Guidlines ?
This whole situation is extremely confusing.


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## Freelance (29 Nov 2022)

bstop said:


> This whole situation is extremely confusing.


+1

They are slowly but surely creating a monster. Instead of creating a third scheme (Payment to Over 65's) on top of Jobseekers and the State Pension (Contributory), it would have been much simpler to change the starting age for the State Pension (Contributory) to 65 and pay it at a reduced rate for the first year.


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