# ptsb reject complaint on margin issue



## Wardy7 (12 Nov 2015)

Hi All,

Today, we received the final correspondence from the bank regarding our complaint about the rate. I'm still in work so I've yet to actually read it but I'm told that it's basically a letter confirming that they are correct with the 3.3% rate and that's that. Apparently, there's a big breakdown with it but unfortunately, no joy for us at this point.


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## robe (12 Nov 2015)

Hi Wardy7 
That's a shame . The complaint I lodged was similar to yours.
Have you a backup plan?


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## Wardy7 (12 Nov 2015)

I didn't really expect anything else to be honest.

My backup plan is called "Padraic Kissane!"


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## Highchair (12 Nov 2015)

Hey, sorry to hear that! Did they qualify why 3.3% is meant to be correct? How did they calculate it? Did they give you a calculation/breakdown or what was their justification?


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## Wardy7 (12 Nov 2015)

Just that 3.25+ECB was the then prevailing tracker rate (when our fixed rate was due to expire) as per our original loan offer docs.

We'll see!!


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## random2011 (13 Nov 2015)

What a load of nonsense from the bank. What does _prevailing_ actually mean? The definition:

_existing at a particular time; current._ 
Trackers did not exist when the PTSB decided these rates.

_having most appeal or influence; prevalent._
I doubt 3.25% appealed to anyone considering the SVR was lower at that time. I was certainly influenced by these rates but for the worst and not the better.


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## robe (13 Nov 2015)

I wonder that ptsb took so long to reply was it that they included you in their review of tracker mortgages.  I hope the CB will follow up on this but it seems they just asked the banks to review their trackers .


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## robe (16 Nov 2015)

Did ptsb make any reference to the notes on the back of the original documents  . In particular the one that states that the % above ecb will not be exceeded during the term of the loan?


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## Wardy7 (16 Nov 2015)

No, they didn't.  They say that the tracker rate applicable from 31 August 2009, was ECB+3.25%. As our fixed rate was officially due to expire in March 2010, apparently this is the rate applicable to us.

Incidentally, they say their records show that we broke out of the fixed rate on January 1, 2009.  Yeah right.......that's what I was doing on New Years Day!!!


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## PadKiss (16 Nov 2015)

Hi all
It has been a while but very quiet I have not been, I have spent a long time researching the Margin Issue and hope to be in a position of advising what to do going forward in the coming weeks. This is one of the key items of the investigation and needs to be addressed but without proper analysis of the issue it will remain unresolved for the present. This proper and informed analysis I am putting together at the moment with legal and experience being consulted on the matter
talk soon
Padraic


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## Brendan Burgess (16 Nov 2015)

Hi Wardy

Who rejected your complaint?   Was it ptsb or was it the Customer Appeals Panel? 

Brendan


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## AAM_User (16 Nov 2015)

Hi Wardy, did they give you evidence that it was the prevailing rate at the time or are they just telling you it was?  

i.e.  Have they supplied some sort of documentation from the time, a brochure or internal communication to backup their statement


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## Wardy7 (17 Nov 2015)

Brendan it was PTSB.  I didn't appeal, but made an official complaint.

No evidence at all. Just stated in the letter.


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## robe (1 Dec 2015)

I got my final response  from ptsb customer relations department. I am not entitled to be included in the redress scheme, and the rate of 3.35% above ecb is correct.
 The rate was determined by "Our pricing structure is determined in line with costs of funds to the bank. The cost of borrowing whether in the wholesale or interbank market remains considerably higher than the nominal rate set by the ECB and it is no longer moving in parallel with the movements in the ECB rate. So while the ECB rate has reduced the actual cost of borrowing on the interbank market has not moved in parallel ."
"This account did not include a contractual right to a tracker specific margin above the ECB rate on the expiry of the fixed rate term rather that the rate would be a tracker rate applicable at the time of maturity. As the rate applicable for  your account was ECB +3.35%. "


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## Sarenco (1 Dec 2015)

Hi robe

Do you recall whether the relevant documentation gave you the choice to revert to a tracker on the expiry of the fixed term at the then "prevailing rate" or the "rate applicable to your account"?  I think the precise wording may be relevant.

The bank's pricing structure, while obviously fascinating, is frankly irrelevant.


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## robe (1 Dec 2015)

see 6


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## Sarenco (2 Dec 2015)

Thanks rote.

Unfortunately, I don't think the wording is very helpful from your perspective as it provides that the margin is to be set by reference to an LTV calculation and the applicable "rate tier" (rather than a "prevailing rate") on expiry of the fixed term.


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## Joannmct (2 Dec 2015)

This is the wording on mine
" the interest rate applicable to the loan will be the tracker mortgage rate appropriate to the balance outstanding on the loan, at the date of the expiry of the fixed rate period”

Is this the same? I have no prevailing on mine so should I ignore that thread?
This whole thing is getting less helpful and more confusing by the day for ordinary joes....just as Ptsb hoped I'd say!


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## Sophrosyne (4 Dec 2015)

robe said:


> I got my final response  from ptsb customer relations department. I am not entitled to be included in the redress scheme, and the rate of 3.35% above ecb is correct.
> The rate was determined by "Our pricing structure is determined in line with costs of funds to the bank. The cost of borrowing whether in the wholesale or interbank market remains considerably higher than the nominal rate set by the ECB and it is no longer moving in parallel with the movements in the ECB rate. So while the ECB rate has reduced the actual cost of borrowing on the interbank market has not moved in parallel ."
> "This account did not include a contractual right to a tracker specific margin above the ECB rate on the expiry of the fixed rate term rather that the rate would be a tracker rate applicable at the time of maturity. As the rate applicable for  your account was ECB +3.35%. "



Robe,

I am curious as to condition 2:-

"the rate tier which applies on expiry of the fixed rate period to the original loan amount."

What precisely does that mean?

How and when was that rate determined?


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## tom bonass (11 Dec 2015)

Hi Wardy,

Would you mind advising what exactly the wording is in your Loan offer/approval . Mine does not use the word 'prevailing' as has been mentioned on here a few times .Mine says:

'ON EXPIRY OF THE FIXED RATE PERIOD , AND WHERE THE APPLICANT CHOOSES THE OPTION OF A TRACKER MORTGAGE INTEREST RATE,THE INTEREST RATE APPLICABLE TO THE LOAN WILL BE THE TRACKER MORTGAGE RATE APPROPRIATE TO THE BALANCE OUTSTANDING ON THE LOAN AT THE DATE OF EXPIRY OF THE FIXED RATE PERIOD. IN THE ABSENCE OF INSTRUCTIONS FROM THE APPLICANT AT THE EXPIRY OF THE FIXED RATE PERIOD , THE INTEREST RATE FOR THE LOAN WILL BE THE TRACKER MORTGAGE RATE APPLICABLE TO THE BALANCE OUTSTANDING ON THE LOAN , AT THE DATE OF EXPIRY OF THE FIXED RATE PERIOD AND AS MAY BE VARIED IN ACCORDANCE WITH VARIATIONS TO THE EUROPEAN CENTRAL BANK REFINANCING RATE'.

Thanks.


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## Wardy7 (11 Dec 2015)

"On expiry of the fixed rate period and without affecting the entitlement of the applicant to apply at any time to fix the rate for a further period (if available), the interest rate applicable to the loan will be the then current permanent tsb Tracker Mortgage rate (comprising of a certain percentage over the European Central Bank refinancing rate ("the ECB rate")) appropriate to the loan as may be varied from time to time in accordance with variations to the ECB rate.  In the Event of any variation of the ECB rate, the revised interest rate for the loan will apply not later than 1 calendar month from the date provided by the ECB as the date on which the variation to the ECB rate will take effect."


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