# Removing party wall between houses



## neiltheseal (18 Sep 2007)

Hi,

My neighbour wants to remove the party wall between our houses and build their wall up to the boundary. Should we have some sort of legal agreement before allowing them to remove the party wall? What are the things to watch out for?
Neil


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## Marathon Man (18 Sep 2007)

*YOU *own right up to the middle of the party wall!! It is on *YOUR* property. Be very careful that you do not lose *ANY* of your site. 

If I read you correctly, your neighbour wants to build/extend up to the centre of the wall. If this is what you meant to say, afaik, under the planning laws, he must leave at least 1 metre between his building and the boundary, therefore he cannot build right up to the centre of the party wall, unless YOU allow it.  My advice - don't do it!

Tread carefully and do not give up any of your property or rights just for neighbourliness. A family member of mine allowed a neighbour to build an awful monster of an extension right up to the boundary wall. The neighbour moved out a few years later - house was "too big" - but family member is rues the day she was neighbourly.

If you neighbour approaches you again, ask him to set out in writing what he wants to do and tell him you'll run it past your solicitor.


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## csirl (18 Sep 2007)

A lot of truth to what Marathon man says - I had an elderly relative, who, for the sake of being good neighbours, allowed neighbour to build extension up to boundary and regreted it.

One thing you may consider, depending on what is being built and building regulations (any advice from anyone?) is having a legal agreement with your neighbour drafted to the effect that if they wish to build e.g. an extension wall, on boundary wall, they must agree that the new party wall be built to a standard that would allow you to use it as a shared party wall on an extension to your house should you or subsequent owners ever decide to build an adjoining extension at any time in the future (thus saving you some building expenses). 

This though would not be possible with most designs of extensions e.g. those with gutters or overhang on roof.


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## csirl (18 Sep 2007)

You may also consider selling him the right to build on the boundary wall?


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## noilh (18 Sep 2007)

I would not allow the neighbour to build right up to the centre of the party wall. It might have implications for the value of your property. He should stay strictly on his side of the wall at the very least.

Also If he does build the extension only right up to the boundary wall bear in mind that this will restrict your option to run a gutter along that side of  any extension you might build in the future.  

As regards the 1 metre distance - I understand that it only appplies to windows - they should be 1 metre from any boundary they face.


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## Marathon Man (19 Sep 2007)

noilheart said:


> As regards the 1 metre distance - I understand that it only appplies to windows - they should be 1 metre from any boundary they face.


 
I'm not sure what the national rules/regs are. I enquired on the matter, on behalf of an elderly neighbour, with the Cork City Council Planning Dept., a few months ago. They said that the extension next door had to leave at least 1 metre clear of the boundary wall and no window could overlook their property.

Another neighbour, a few years ago consented to building right up to the boundary wall (not a party wall). In this case the party building the ext, knocked the wall (which they didn't own any part) and still hasn't rebuilt the wall and also installed a window overlooking the property - council made them remove the window. 

Give an inch....take a mile. 
Prime rule...Watch your property. 
Neighbours come and go... property rights conceded are gone ...forever!


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## Alias (19 Sep 2007)

csirl said:


> This though would not be possible with most designs of extensions e.g. those with gutters or overhang on roof.


 
What would happen with gutters and overhangs?  I ask because last year we looked at a house which was being sold.  The owner had built a new house on the lot (corner site) and divided the property.  They were selling the old house, but the new house was built on the party line, with an eaves/gutter overhang into the old property.  We questioned it with the estate agent who acted like it was nothing.  I couldn't find any reference online, but it concerned us.  We found a better house, so at this stage it's idle curiousity, but I'm still curious


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## neiltheseal (19 Sep 2007)

My understanding about overhanging gutters is that after 12 years the property beneath the gutters becomes the property of the owner of the gutters. Naturally this is a legal no mans land since the gutters are overhanging another person's property. It probably doesn't matter until you go to sell the property.

Does anyone know what the law on party walls is in ireland? I believe there's legisation and procedure in the UK which helps to alleviate these types of problems. They try to get quantity surveyors and architects to solve the problem rather than solicitors.

If anyone has a checklist of things which would be put into an agreement between neighbours when removing a party wall, that would be great.


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## Caveat (19 Sep 2007)

neiltheseal said:


> Hi,
> 
> My neighbour wants to remove the party wall between our houses and build their wall up to the boundary. Should we have some sort of legal agreement before allowing them to remove the party wall? What are the things to watch out for?
> Neil


 
Be *extremely* careful here neil!

We were in this position - innocently, without any written/legal agreement and with hindsight, naively, we agreed to the neighbour doing this.

All sorts of problems ensued - not least with the neighbour having an 'open' interpretation as to what was 'their' property. To cut a long story short, we actually had to move house over it.

Also, it can depend on exactly what they propose to build - e.g. porches are exempt from planning permission.

*Get everything in writing, including detailed plans and consult a solicitor.*


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## askalot (19 Sep 2007)

Caveat said:


> Also, it can depend on exactly what they propose to build - e.g. porches are exempt from planning permission.[/B]



True but they and rear extensions are not exempt from the planning regulations i.e distance between windows of adjoining properties, overlooking etc. And it is possible to call the planners in to rule on any issues that are in dispute, the earlier you do this the better. The exemptions are a guide for 'standard' builds only.


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## noilh (20 Sep 2007)

Neiltheseal, I 'll tell you of my experience and hope it helps.  
When my neighbours were building their extension I looked up the Dublin City Council website to check on the Planning guidelines.  I was happy to allow them to build right up to the boundary wall because if they had left a small space between their extension wall and the boundary wall I felt it could fill with water or rubbish etc.  I also had to get them to change the way they wanted to do the gutters as they wanted to run one along their extension wall  overhanging the  the boundary wall and I was not happy with that.
I hired an architect to come out and inspect the site and he strongly advised me that they should not put the gutter overhanging the boundary wall the way they had planned.  He said they would gain rights to have that gutter not interfered with etc. and if I wanted to build an extension there would be a problem if I wanted to come up close to their gutter,  He negotiated with their builder to change it.  The neighbours were very cross about it  as the builder had to start re-doing the roof angle.  
It was money well spent on that architect and I subsequently had my property valued and the estate agent said the neighbours extension did not devalue my property because it was entirely on their side of the boundary wall.   So my verdict is - don't get rid of the boundary wall and make sure everything is entirely on their side of it.


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## aisling o'b (20 Sep 2007)

My brother was in a similar situation and said no for all the reasons above. He put his decision in writing and handed it to the neighbour. The neighbours weren't one bit happy but he was more than happy he had said no. The neighbour had originally put it to him as if he was doing him a favour and increasing the value of his property! He told him of his plans the Thursday before the Monday the job was to start. He planned on removing the fence and building a wall in its place. He told my brother he could use it to build against in future if he wanted. He subsequently allowed him access to his garden to render the wall and they left it a mess with cement on the plants etc. My brother's garden nearly looked like he had a building project going on! No thanks! Let him build on his own side - existing party wall intact and without interference. If he doesn't like it stuff him!


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## holly (21 Sep 2007)

I have to say, we bought a house a year ago with the intention of extending. We spoke to the neighbours straight away to ask for permission to remove the existing wall and build up to the boundary, gave them a copy of the plans with measurements, etc. We were fully prepared for them to say no and to have to get our plans redrawn but to our surprise, they said yes. The wall between the gardens was in appalling condition and there was a huge tree on our side blocking the light into their rooms.  We went ahead, putting the gutter on our side by building the wall a little higher than our roof line and leaving a channel between wall and roof – all according to the plans. We made sure that the neighbours side was properly rendered and painted and their deck restored to original condition. It took longer than we planned, so it was probably a pain in the a**  for them, but since it was over the winter, they weren’t using their deck anyway. All done now, they have more light and privacy and everyone is still speaking to each other!


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## rrrrrrrrrr (29 Nov 2007)

I would also like to extend my kitchen out into the garden. I would like to build on the party wall as otherwise, the wall inside my new kitchen where the kitchen units would need to go would step in half way along and would look odd.

I have 3 questions....

1...Most of the section of party wall that I would like to replace, is in fact the back wall of my concrete shed, which was built with the house 60 years ago. Infact I think a bit of the concrete roof of my shed overhangs the party wall into my neighbours side (and has done so for 60 years) Does this give me any more rights to the wall? Amn't I just effectively replacing a shed with a kitchen on the same footprint? 

2....Come to think of it, all the walls are original corpo built and as such are fairly bomb proof. Subject to a survey etc, could I actually reuse the existing wall, and just insulate it on my side, add a few blocks on top etc?


3.....Final question... If my neighbour refuses, and I then build up to but not on the existing wall, and then next year my neighbour also decides he wants a similar extension, what's to stop him removing the party wall and putting his new wall there and hence getting the few vital extra inches that he denied me? I could not tell what he is doing as the job would be going on behind my new wall and wouldn't it be petty of me to object to something I can't even see?

I haven't approached my neighbours yet, so maybe they'll be grand about it, but I'd like to have my facts straight first.


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## EC-C (1 Aug 2013)

I know its some years since you posted, but curious about the outcome.  I am also planning an extension and looking for clarity on the issue.  I dont wish to build a totally separate wall with a gap between it and the boundary wall and I favour a parapet to prevent overhang or other issues.  Keeping a good relationship with my neighbours is very important.


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