# Petrol Prices Protest July 14th



## LIVERLIPS (13 Jul 2005)

Just to let you know that there is meant to be a protest about the petrol prices at the moment as they keep on rising. At some garages it is 1.16 euro per litre. So tomorrow is the day we are meant to boycott the garages and give them a fright.


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## MichaelL (13 Jul 2005)

You will still have to buy petrol at some point in the next couple of days though, so one days takings will be down but subsequent days will increase


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## ubiquitous (13 Jul 2005)

I have yet to see any reports or specific allegations of profit-taking by garages amid the recent prices rises. Any protest should be directed at the govt as they take the lions share of the price in VAT and excise. I understand that garages enjoy a very small margin on fuel sales.


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## Kiddo (13 Jul 2005)

Most petrol stations make very little profit margin on fuel...they make their money on the sweets/chocolate etc you buy when you go in to the shop to pay.For the cheapest fuel in your area check out this website

http://www.irishfuelprices.com/


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## Humpback (13 Jul 2005)

This was mentioned on the Boards.ie Ripoff Ireland Forum as well.  It appears that the protest is originally based in America.

I'll paste here what I said in response to the original call to protest there.

_If there was to be any boycott of petrol stations (for whatever reasons), I reckon it'd make more sense to boycott one particular petrol company, ALL of the time.

At a certain point in time, they'd have to drop their prices if no one was buying from them.

Which would then lead to the others dropping their prices because of the competition on price.

But what are the chances of having the whole country boycotting a particular brand for 3-4 weeks or more to cause this to happen?

We complain a lot about stuff, but something as easy as this would never be done because I reckon, despite the complaining, people don't really care enough. (Something along just liking the sound of their own voices???)_


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## ubiquitous (13 Jul 2005)

With all respect, I don't think that this proposal makes any sense. Do you really think that if a boycott forced, say, Statoil to shut all their service stations that Texaco, Shell and the others would reduce their prices? If Tesco were forced to close in this way, would Dunnes and Lidl be cheaper? Basic economics tells us that when you remove a competitor from a market, the level of competition declines and prices go up.


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## Humpback (13 Jul 2005)

ubiquitous said:
			
		

> With all respect, I don't think that this proposal makes any sense. Do you really think that if a boycott forced, say, Statoil to shut all their service stations that Texaco, Shell and the others would reduce their prices? If Tesco were forced to close in this way, would Dunnes and Lidl be cheaper? Basic economics tells us that when you remove a competitor from a market, the level of competition declines and prices go up.


 
If you're referring to my post, I never mentioned anything about forcing a company to close.

My proposal makes sense on the basis that if someone isn't getting any business or income from customers, they'll see what they can do to recover customers and market share. In a petrol station, the only real differential is price, so therefore that would be the first thing to be addressed.

As evidence of that, note how petrol prices in all the stations around about Tesco have dropped their price to the same level as Tesco. 

With Tesco undercutting their prices, they were getting no business. To get business back, they cut their price to attract back the customers.


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## Jister (13 Jul 2005)

Petrol (Oil) is running out, the more it costs the longer it will last and the less dependent we will become on it.


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## ubiquitous (13 Jul 2005)

> if someone isn't getting any business or income from customers, they'll see what they can do to recover customers and market share. In a petrol station, the only real differential is price, so therefore that would be the first thing to be addressed.



If their business isn't viable as a result they will close.


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## Humpback (13 Jul 2005)

ubiquitous said:
			
		

> If their business isn't viable as a result they will close.


 
Yes, I agree.

But, is a company like Shell going to go immediately from "*we've no customers and not making money*" in one swift and immediate step to "*we're closing down*" without going through a couple of phases of trying to win back these customers????

In my opinon, they'd do stuff first before shutting down. And the "stuff" they'd have to do would most likely be of benefit to consumers.


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## ubiquitous (13 Jul 2005)

Not necessarily. Businesses tend not to hang around when they start losing money or their market becomes unprofitable. For example, watch what happens the next time a US multinational announces it is pulling out of Ireland because the cost base here is too high. In the case of smaller business, it is usually the bank that forces the plug to be pulled when things take a turn for the worse.


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## CGorman (13 Jul 2005)

Jister said:
			
		

> Petrol (Oil) is running out, the more it costs the longer it will last and the less dependent we will become on it.



Exactly... personally im glad to see (hopefully) the end of very cheap oil. It will force us to broaden our sources of energy to more sustainable and enviromentally friendly sources. I live within a mile or so of everything I need and can cycle a furture couple of miles when I need too. I know its not practical for everyone to do that and we do need cars - but we it to be economic for business to adopt better solutions.


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## z102 (13 Jul 2005)

Jister and CGorman are thinking logical whilst some other posters like Liverlips have a very limited view on the issue . The head of Frankfurt a. Main airport and board member of the German Lufthansa announced only 4 weeks ago that civil aviation won't exist any more after 2050 - and becoming expensive in the mean time . Due to the lack of affordable kerosene.

When these people - like Mr. Bender - say this than not to scare away investors. But to invite science and industry to think about something else as a method of transport . Since jet planes take nothing else than kerosene made from oil . Since there is no alternative to kerosene there is also an alternative to this scenario : to reserve a certain amount of the globes natural oil sources for civil aviation only .That's what Mr. Bender says. 

And that would make car driving impossible . For car engines are many alternatives . Not so for jet planes . 8 % of the globes oil resources are used up for aviation. This number is on the increase .

Has Liverlips and the " carbon junkies " any alternative to offer ?

Lidl has plant oil for € 0.62/liter for offer. And it can be used readily in many cars . Without adaption of the car -but check the home pages of the car manufacturers to see if your model is suitable . Maybe a car with a future is the future choice ?!

Have you ever been abroad Liverlips ? 

In France the Liter of petrol costs around € 1.40 .The same goes for Germany and the Netherlands .These countries charge what they have to to a.) get away from the drug of cheap carbon and b.) to finance the deadly habit of the Irish drivers by paying for their roads. And these nations have to run a real war in the meantime to keep supplies running .

If it doesn't hurt it won't help.

You could as well boycott US products and block the run way on Shannon airport . That would bring oil prices down . Simply by parking your cars on the runway 'till eternity you would help to reduce the demand of oil. And therefore make life better for many. Liverlips want solidarity with the ignorant energy punks ( “ no future ! “). Is he willing to show solidarity with those who are dying for his habit ?

Oil prices increase by around $ 0.50 - per week . Pull out the calculator and see when you'll end with an empty tank and an empty wallet .


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## CGorman (14 Jul 2005)

ubiquitous said:
			
		

> For example, watch what happens the next time a US multinational announces it is pulling out of Ireland because the cost base here is too high.



I know this is not your main point... but I just want to say that Ireland is still a reasonably affordable place to operate... despite the scaremongering often done by the media. Our wages might be very high, but if the average salery is say 30k in a company in Ireland and tax contributions are 15k thats 45k whereas in say france the salery might only be 25k but the tax contributions might also be 25k... i.e 50k (note im only making up figures for illustrative purposes, but I know for a fact the after tax cost of employing staff in Ireland is still relativty competitive...im not sure where I read it, it might have been a while back in "_The Economist_"... can't remember). Also as pointed out above fuel costs are significantly lower in Ireland than in continental Euope. Anyways my point is Ireland still is fairly competitve cost wise. (Sorry if im not making sense... its been a _long_ day!)



			
				heinbloed
[color=black said:
			
		

> Oil prices increase by around $ 0.50 - per week . Pull out the calculator and see when you'll end with an empty tank and an empty wallet




Well just because oil jumped an average of 50c each week for many weeks does'nt mean it will do the same next week. The concensus view among industry commentators is for continued high prices (i.e. $60 a barrell) through the winter then a fall to about $50 for the medium term. At the moment the high oil prices *are* actually been caused by short supply - world capacity is being nearly fully utilised - this contrasted with previous price spikes when uncertainty underpined high prices; this suggests that a fall back to cheap oil or even moderately priced oil ($30-$40) is unlikely ever again.



			
				heinbloed said:
			
		

> The head of Frankfurt a. Main airport and board member of the German Lufthansa announced only 4 weeks ago that civil aviation won't exist any more after 2050 - and becoming expensive in the mean time . Due to the lack of affordable kerosene.



Yes this is very worrying for the global economy and all aspects of international transport... althought transit costs actually account for relatively little in the overall cost of goods at present, the lack of affordable aviation would destroy current distribution systems. I would imagine that Europe will gain a huge commerical advantage over American should aviation become too expensive due to our large train network which is currently being developed significantly. Unfortuantly this won't help us on our little island!

I've gotta go, I have plenty more to rant on about (wind, energy conservation...)


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## LIVERLIPS (14 Jul 2005)

Hi heinbloed, i was only stating that some garages are really hiking their prices up and some do not display them properly. There is a garage in swords that charges 109 at the moment for diesel and petrol, when there should be a difference between them. Also heinbloed i have been aboard several times, and i know england do not tax their cars on the engine size it is just a flat fee and look how good their roads are compared to ours. I have to avoid about 10 potholes every day. And when a company digs up the roads here they leave them in worse state e.g In Swords Ratebeale rRoad at the moment their is lumps out of the road where pipes where laid a few weeks ago and they never flattened the road after them. They should be fined for leaving roads like that. Which can damage tyres and cause blowouts. 

I suppose you think ESB has a right aswell to look for another increase when they made a massive profit last year. I suggest we do not sit back and take this increase yet again as was said this is one of the main reasons US companies are moving out of the country.


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## CGorman (14 Jul 2005)

LIVERLIPS said:
			
		

> I suppose you think ESB has a right aswell to look for another increase when they made a massive profit last year. I suggest we do not sit back and take this increase yet again as was said this is one of the main reasons US companies are moving out of the country.



Hold on a minute, the ESB has huge financial challenges ahead so its profits are not only justifed but needed for its continued survival. Electricity distribution is a very capital intensive business (and is done in Ireland by _ESB Networks_, a seperate enitity from the ESB, but still owned by it). Last year the ESB spent €700m investing in the National grid; althought it could easily secure €700m annually in borrowings it is far better to pay for this with profits rather than to borrow the money and repay perhaps €800m; and more importantly to avoid inflating its liabilities before a possible privatisation in the next ten years. Oh and don't forget the €0.5bn pension fund deficiet! 

The ESB's profits are on par with industry averages and relatively meagre when you compare it with some (the banks!) other big Irish companies:


ESB: 04' Revenues €2.6bn (R); 04' Operating profit €362m (P); P as % of R = 13% 
Duke energy: 04' Revenue $22.5bn (R); 04' Operating Profit $3bn (P); P as % of R = 13.33%
American Electric Power: 04' Revenue $14bn (R); 04' Operating Profit $2bn (P); P as % of R = 14.28%
AIB: 04' Revenue €7.35bn (R); 04' Operating Profit €2.36bn (P); P as % of R = 32%

Now what is the purpose of the ESB, why does it exist? a) to provide power supply and distribution to all homes and businesses in Ireland, b) to do so in a reasonably efficent and  cost effective manner, c) to provide quality employment to several thousend employees, d) to make a return for its owners (the Irish taxpayer), e) to grow its business and diversify to allow its owners (the Irish taxpayer) to make a return (or at least a limited loss) should it be privatised. If you examine these points, it has been very successful (certainly when compared to RTE and Eircom).

On a) it has been hugely successful in providing a grid connection to virtually everyone - in most countries smaller communities even on the main land lack grid connections because of the high cost of doing so. Not in Ireland. Passed
On b) it has done only ok; energycosts are above international averages and the company has failed to adaquately diversify its energy sources. Failed.
On c) it has done very well currently provideng 8,500 good pernsionable jobs - and creating employment for many more contractors. There also has been relatively little serious industrial action in the past few years. Passed
On d) In contrast to Aer Lingus, RTE, and An Post the ESB has made a reasonable return for its shareholders for much of the last decade or so. Passed
On e) It has diversifed to a greater extent from its core market than other semi states; having jointly developed power stations in Spain and even bid for a transmission network serving several million more than its Irish one in the USA. Passed.

Thats four out of five goals met. Not too bad.  And on b) it is'nt too bad, in fairness it has fitted out Poolbeg and North Wall power stations to use either oil or gas so it can capitalise on which is more economic at any particular time.

Oh and again you've raised the pont about the Irish cost base. Companies can choose who to get their energy from! So you can't blame the ESB for that one, they can buy from Viridian and Airtricity to name two.


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## CGorman (14 Jul 2005)

LIVERLIPS said:
			
		

> At some garages it is 1.16 euro per litre.



Shop around theres only a few that high. In Mullingar - which does'nt have a Tesco station - you can get it for 102.9 at one station and at 104.9 at most of the others.


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## CCOVICH (14 Jul 2005)

CGorman said:
			
		

> Now what is the purpose of the ESB, why does it exist?
> c) to provide quality employment to several thousend employees,
> 
> On c) it has done very well currently provideng 8,500 good pernsionable jobs - and creating employment for many more contractors. There also has been relatively little serious industrial action in the past few years. Passed


 
I take serious issue with this.  

There are plenty of State bodies providing 'good pensionable jobs', why should the ESB get any credit for doing so?  Also, this is and should not be it's purpose, good pensionsable employment should be a by-product of a well run and efficient company.

The ESB workers are among the best paid in the Sate.  The lack of industrial action is more than likely as a result of this fact.  Also, what about that fiasco last year of the peat burning stations-workers refusing to leave plants that were closing down, and still getting paid, even though they weren't doing any work.


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## jhegarty (14 Jul 2005)

LIVERLIPS said:
			
		

> Just to let you know that there is meant to be a protest about the petrol prices at the moment as they keep on rising. At some garages it is 1.16 euro per litre. So tomorrow is the day we are meant to boycott the garages and give them a fright.



i am going to drive to cork tommorow , so need to fill the tank... how do I hurt the petrol station by buying it in the morning instead of tonight ?


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## CGorman (14 Jul 2005)

CCOVICH said:
			
		

> I take serious issue with this.
> 
> There are plenty of State bodies providing 'good pensionable jobs', why should the ESB get any credit for doing so?  Also, this is and should not be it's purpose, good pensionsable employment should be a by-product of a well run and efficient company.
> 
> The ESB workers are among the best paid in the Sate.  The lack of industrial action is more than likely as a result of this fact.  Also, what about that fiasco last year of the peat burning stations-workers refusing to leave plants that were closing down, and still getting paid, even though they weren't doing any work.



I did not cite employment as the sole reason for its existance, only one of many many purposes. I will admit thought that my father is an ESB employee and althought I do not know what his wages are, I do know he certainly is paid well. However he works unbelievable hours. He works in the Networks devision and every third or forth week he is 'on call' ; its not uncommon (in fact its very frequently the case) that he works at all hours of the night - he might have to hope in his van and drive 30km at 3am - it happens regurally - and he is paid very little for this extra work because regardless of how many times you are called out you are paid the same amount. I assure you that the Nertworks devision is far from overstaffed and that the company is deriving every last ounce of efficency from that part of the business at least. 

As regards the peat station fiasco - I agree with you that was stupid.


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## redstar (14 Jul 2005)

I'm always amazed when I see people getting petrol in garages charging what are obviously  rip-off prices. Shop-around !  Take the AA's advice and buy in litres, not Euros.
Example; 
Texaco garage beside Skylon, Drumcondra  114.9
Texaco garage Ballygall Rd, 102.9


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## MOB (14 Jul 2005)

May I also suggest that you should always fill your tank and check your mileage between fills.  This will allow you to see if your fuel economy is staying at acceptable levels.  10 miles per litre is a good standard to aim for if you drive an average size car.


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## Guest127 (14 Jul 2005)

Does not really matter whether you buy in euro or litres provided you watch the price. average price around dundalk at moment is €104.9 but there is still one a cent cheaper and a few on the newry road side of town around €107.9. don't understand this overtaking business and then breaking hard to turn off a few hundred yards up the road and also racing between lights. course it would help if the lights were synchronised so that after you stopped at one and stayed within the speed limits you could progress without every light turning red as you approached, sometimes only a few hundred metres from the last light.
home heating oil will be the next big cry,and we are going to get skulled.


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## Joe1234 (15 Jul 2005)

It always amazes me that there is such interest in a small price difference, ie 1 cent.  I know of people who shop around to save 1 cent per litre of petrol, ie 40 cent on 40 litres, but would have no problem doing some of their grocery shopping in convenience stores and paying much more than the 40 cent they save on petrol.


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## ubiquitous (15 Jul 2005)

People drive out of their way to save say 20-60 cent on a €35 fill of petrol and think nothing then of wasting the guts of €1 on a chocolate bar or up to €2 on a fizzy drink. The cheapest petrol pump is one without a shop attached, no matter how expensive the fuel.


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## tallpaul (15 Jul 2005)

redstar said:
			
		

> I'm always amazed when I see people getting petrol in garages charging what are obviously  rip-off prices. Shop-around !  Take the AA's advice and buy in litres, not Euros.
> Example;
> Texaco garage beside Skylon, Drumcondra  114.9
> Texaco garage Ballygall Rd, 102.9



Saw on sunday, the Statoil (I think) in Kilcullen Co. Kildare charging an eyewatering 116.9 and yes there were cars filling up!!!!

Funniest was in Newbridge two weeks ago where the Esso at the end of the town was (at that time) 100.9 while literally across the road the Statoil was 103.9 and yes yet again people using the Statoil.


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## CGorman (15 Jul 2005)

Same in Mullingar, there's three stations within a few hundred meters of each other (two of which are easily visible from one another). Prices are: Statoil & Maxoil 104.9, and a second Statoil 102.9... yes there are two statoils beside one another charging different prices!


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## finbar (16 Jul 2005)

Hi Heinbloed,
I think you have missed the point Liverlips was trying to make is how come Tesco can charge 102.9 for petrol while other garages chareg up to 1.10.
we need more competition and the more tesco filling stations that open the better.
On the point you made about Ireland being one of the cheapest for petrol compared to Germany etc ,our VRT on cars is the highest in europe along with road tax.
Have you ever been to America Heinbold? I have been in America for three months so far this year and their petrol is a quarter the price it is here plus the have no road tax.
what do you mean by the deadly habit of the irish drivers if the public transport system in Ireland was not so inadequate we wouldnt all need cars
in the first place.
For now we sould all bouycot the dearer pertrol stations by going to tescos 
of garages that are not overcharging for petrol by monitoring 
www.irishfuelprices.com to get the lowest price


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## CGorman (16 Jul 2005)

Yes "gas" is very cheap in the states - but is that a good thing? It encourages the development of inefficent cars such hummers and SUV's and discourages small cars which are far more practical for city areas and better for the enviroment. Oh and when I say small, I don't just mean Smart Cars, a regular Toyota Avensis is small compared to some of the supersized things on American roads!


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## RainyDay (16 Jul 2005)

CGorman said:
			
		

> Yes "gas" is very cheap in the states - but is that a good thing? It encourages the development of inefficent cars such hummers and SUV's and discourages small cars which are far more practical for city areas and better for the enviroment.


In some states, you get great tax breaks for the really large engined vehicles (>5 litre) with the intention of supporting agriculture, which of course now benefits the Hummers & the big trucks etc etc.


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## z102 (17 Jul 2005)

I made the comment that soon we won't have the financial capacity to buy fuel anymore. I said that the oil price is increasing every week at about $ 0.50 .

CGorman told us that this is only during the last few weeks so . That was wrong.

Both of us - CGorman an me - were wrong.

The oil price for Brent and the OPEC basket have increased steadily by around $0.60 PER WEEK during this year so far . 

Check the homepage of the IPE or CNBC or other traders papers. The German petrol association delivers it for free at http ://www.mwv.de/

The price for Brent in week 1 (2005) was $ 41.- . Now in week 29 it is around $57.- . A difference of $ 16.- divided by 29 weeks gives me a result of $0.55 . That is an increase from week to week of $ 0.55 .

Similar story for the OPEC basket .

Pity AAM does not allow to post tables/diagrams . I tried to paste it ,no success .

Finbar says-as far as I understood -that the prices are cheaper in the US . So what ?!

Has he tried to send a child to school there ? They have an adult illiteracy rate there of more than 25 % . And the Irish only 23 % as far as I remember . Nothing comes from nothing . We have here in Ireland some of the lowest petrol prices in western Europe and the highest illiteracy rate . Does the penny drop , Finbar ? The deadly habit of blasting carbon into the atmosphere kills. It kills Ireland .And it makes Irish people becoming dogs of war . Only last week one of those soldiers of fortune arrived back , shot to bits and pieces . The taxpayer foots the bill for this idiot via the health system . Every year the sea level rises by 3 mm. Please , Finbar , figure out for us how much we loose of our heritage every year , in square kilometers please . And let us know the results . We need facts here , not wish full thinking and ranting about being ripped off .To foot the bill of cheap petrol we have to pay with arms and legs. Facts will help us to counter fight our deadly -and ba(e)r of any reason - habits.


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## CCOVICH (17 Jul 2005)

heinbloed said:
			
		

> We have here in Ireland some of the lowest petrol prices in western Europe and the highest illiteracy rate .




Yes, yes.  Cheap petrol makes for kids who can't read.  Facts are great, reasonable and rational thoughts are nice too.  The carbon emissions in this country of ours (that you are so worried about) are obviously affecting your ability to produce anything other than drivel like this.

Current petrol prices are still some ways off what they were in the 70s/80s, at the height of the OPEC crisis.  Some economists even believe that prices may fall in 10 years time as new capacity from previously untapped resources comes on stream.  Who knows?


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## CGorman (17 Jul 2005)

CCOVICH said:
			
		

> Current petrol prices are still some ways off what they were in the 70s/80s, at the height of the OPEC crisis.  Some economists even believe that prices may fall in 10 years time as new capacity from previously untapped resources comes on stream.  Who knows?



Yes, the inflation adjusted prices for them periods were over $80 a barrel, thats a huge amount when you consider for most of the 90's we had it at $20 a barrel


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## CGorman (17 Jul 2005)

heinbloed said:
			
		

> I
> CGorman told us that this is only during the last few weeks so . That was wrong.
> Both of us - CGorman an me - were wrong.
> The oil price for Brent and the OPEC basket have increased steadily by around $0.60 PER WEEK during this year so far .



You don't get my point. For example if Dell shares trade at $20 a share on 1st January but rise to $40 a share 40 weeks later, thats an average weekly gain of $0.50 per share. However would you then go and buy Dell shares on the 40th week expecting to gain $0.50 a week per share? Not likely! Obviously share prices are related to profits, dividends,  revenues etc., but in the end of the day if something rises sharply in value - does that justify a continued rise in price? No! Remember the dot com boom - _"Lastminute.com shares are up 200%, lets buy now!"_


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## z102 (17 Jul 2005)

No, CGorman , I wouldn't buy Dell shares . But that is because I don’t need them . But I need energy , as any business as well . I can't wait 'till it is cheap again and roll down the shutters in the meantime . The world economy can't either . And that's the reason why the prices won't go down. 

CCOVICH's " argument " about futuristic oil resources is useless concerning the current market prices . To much enterprise ? The world looks a bit square when you get reality from sky TV . Or when your look at it is limited by the width of the windscreen .

No one would invest money in new oil resources when not expecting higher profits . 

That is market thinking . Shell just “ spend “ $ 20 billion in Sachalin and BP nearly lost the largest oil platform of the world in the Gulf of Mexico . That BP thing costs $300.000 - per day.

These projects need financing by the pump price at the garage . More projects like these means more price increases as well.


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## z102 (18 Jul 2005)

For CCOVICH  the following explanation ; what has cheap energy to do with a rudiment state system : If Tesco buys petrol from the same refinery as the corner petrol station they both pay the same petrol tax. This tax is charged at the refinery by the exchequer . But when Tesco ads just one Cent per liter for he profit and the petrol station at the corner ads two Cents then the station at the corner delivers more VAT to the exchequer. Per liter sold . O.k.?

Compare the OECD statistics on illiteracy with the national energy prices . The lower the tax regime the less of a state there is. The more stupid Joe Average is the easier the same sows can feed on the same troughs . Ignorance keeps competition at bay and keeps the pigs getting fatter. That is my lesson in honour of George Orwell and his still interesting “ Animal Farm “ .


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## bond-007 (18 Jul 2005)

There is a Campus garage in Ballyragget, Co. KIlkenny charging 117.9 for unleaded  He has some neck


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## CCOVICH (18 Jul 2005)

heinbloed said:
			
		

> CCOVICH's " argument " about futuristic oil resources is useless concerning the current market prices . To much enterprise ? The world looks a bit square when you get reality from sky TV . Or when your look at it is limited by the width of the windscreen .
> 
> No one would invest money in new oil resources when not expecting higher profits .


 
This isn't my "argument", I was merely stating an alternative view put forward in an article I recently read.  Oil prices may indeed continue to rise from now until eternity for all I know.

Profit=Selling price x volume - costs

There are three parts to the profit equation, not just 'price' as you seem to think.  

Also, companies tend not to fund major capital projects from price increases (unless you are an Irish semi-state), but from bond or share issues.  Of course, if oil companies are sitting on a mountain of cash, they could use that, but I haven't looked at their balance sheets lately.

I don't need a patronising lecture from you on how the tax system works.  Why not say that we need higher income taxes, higher capital taxes, higher VAT on all goods to improve the literacy rate in this country (P.S. for somone so concerned with illiteracy, you're spelling and grammer are awful-OK?), not just on petrol.  Why not compare the OECD statistics on illeteracy with the price of bananas?  The price of a pint?  The price of a pack of fags?


P.P.S. I don't have Sky, I don't watch any reality TV (other than sports or the 'news') and you are not teaching any 'lessons' on this board professor-OK?


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## Culchie (18 Jul 2005)

As someone who worked in a reasonably senior position with a 'large player' in the market ... some facts.


At retail level, there is no money, I repeat no money to be made on fuel sales.
In many instances, in the larger sites, it is a loss leader to attract customers to their stores.

The oil companies make their huge profits upstream ... i.e Selling the Oil on the open market. Retail is about customer facing brands.

Within 5 years or so, there will only be about approximately 50% of the amount of petrol outlets open in Ireland. The 'Tesco' effect will have kicked in nationwide then, making the small independent fuel retailer obsolete.
This will be seen once the national infrastructure plan has been completed. You will see fuelling 'hubs' at strategic points around the country, accompanied by a Tesco type operation.

Someone mentioned that Shell wouldn't close their operations overnight .... Shell has sold it's retail businesses, and had been for sale for approx 2 years.
They also abandoned their 'Select' store offer, the same way as Texaco abandoned their Superquinn alliance. Esso sold/for sale all their company owned sites outside the Dublin area. They also scrapped their Tiger Miles scheme.

So you see, the industry is being dramitically rationalised.

The USA oil reserves are non-existant within a very short time, hence their 'interest' in Iraq. This combined with China and India's emergence in the global economy is what is driving oil prices up on the *open market (supply and demand)*, not your independent retailer, who you plan to boycott.
The strengthening of the dollar is increasing the hit in the euro zone.


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## CGorman (18 Jul 2005)

heinbloed said:
			
		

> No, CGorman , I wouldn't buy Dell shares . But that is because I don’t need them . But I need energy , as any business as well . I can't wait 'till it is cheap again and roll down the shutters in the meantime . The world economy can't either . And that's the reason why the prices won't go down.



You just don't get my point do you! All i'm saying is that just because prices have risen by an average of 60c a week for the past year does not mean it will rise by the same amount over the next 12 months! Im not questioning the effects on business. Of course expensive oil hurts business in the short and indeed medium term, I don't  disagree with that at all.


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## balga (22 Jul 2005)

Culcie,

If one assumes that the wholesale price on the open market is constant worldwide, what explains the marked differences in retail price across economies? For instance, in my native town of Perth, Western Australia, retail price now is ca $1.28 (about 77cent). That is, is the price difference solely due to central authority taxes and charges?

Balga


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## Culchie (22 Jul 2005)

Yes, simple as that, individual government duties and levies, and currency exchange factors


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## balga (22 Jul 2005)

Cheers for that reply


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