# Bank say account closed all savings gone?



## Coffey (19 Jan 2014)

Hi my uncle who is 78 and of sound mind is very sick has been told by one of the pillar banks that his life savings account was closed in 2002 and all his savings are gone. My uncle who has been in hospital for over 10 years did not close this account or withdraw any savings, he had over 200,000 saved and we have the bank statements to prove this. The bank said they can only go back 6 years and basically it's tough! My uncle is distraught at this and does not know what to do. All his statements were going to his old address while in hospital. My question is do banks hold records on micro fiche going back to 2002 as we need these to prove his life savings were in there and he most certainly didn't close the account!


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## Brendan Burgess (19 Jan 2014)

That is nonsense from the bank although I suspect that your uncle has misunderstood.

What has probably happened here is that the money has been put into the [broken link removed]

Assuming he is correct in his memory, he will probably be able to get his money.

It is, of course, possible that someone defrauded your uncle and withdrew his money in 2002.  If the bank's records show that he allegedly withdrew the money in cash in 2002, it might be difficult to prove otherwise. 

Brendan


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## Sue Ellen (19 Jan 2014)

Hi,

Welcome to AAM.

If you are not getting anywhere with the bank perhaps you need to pursue [broken link removed].


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## Coffey (19 Jan 2014)

Brendan I went to the bank with him, it was a terrible day, we have been also onto dormant accounts within the bank and have been told sorry the account was closed in 2002 but they can't tell us by whom and what balance, my uncle has been in 3 different hospitals for past 10 years he has never needed the money and only went to check in September to get his " affairs into order " as he now has cancer, we have a solicitor on the case now but they are being told the same thing records can only go back 6 years. My uncle did not close the bank and had not been near them in 30 years as there was no need as this was savings only, we have statements going back to 1998 showing the money was there, we have requested a dirt tax statement from revenue to prove he paid tax on his savings. It's a complete nightmare.


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## Coffey (19 Jan 2014)

Thank you sue Ellen we will do that tomorrow, we found all this out in September and have got no where since!


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## Coffey (19 Jan 2014)

He didn't need money at all as he had a stroke was in Beaumont for 3 years then rehab for 2 years learning to walk again then in nursing home for past 8 years, he had a small pension going into his current account and old age pension, it's his savings account that has been closed on him by the bank, my concern is this could happen to anyone, just because the bank says one thing doesn't mean it's true!


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## STEINER (19 Jan 2014)

Coffey said:


> He didn't need money at all as he had a stroke was in Beaumont for 3 years then rehab for 2 years learning to walk again then in nursing home for past 8 years, he had a small pension going into his current account and old age pension, it's his savings account that has been closed on him by the bank, my concern is this could happen to anyone, just because the bank says one thing doesn't mean it's true!




Who paid his nursing home fees for 8 years?


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## Brendan Burgess (19 Jan 2014)

> it's his savings account that has been closed on him by the bank,



The bank doesn't just close savings accounts and take the money.

If the bank is telling you that the account was closed in 2002, it is because someone withdrew the money and closed the account. 

I don't think that the 6 year statute of limitations applies.  The bank should know what it did with the money. Did it transfer it to some other account or give it out in cash?


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## Coffey (19 Jan 2014)

It is on direct debit from his current account, all that is in order. The savings account is a separate account number of which we have a statement to show the money was there but according to the bank is now closed since 2002, my uncles current account where his pension goes in and fees come out is ok, it's his separate savings account that is the problem. We are hoping a revenue dirt tax statement will prove he paid tax on his savings and the money was there, we really need access to those bank records showing a paper trail, I'm not hopeful as bank say they are not obliged to keep such records.


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## Coffey (19 Jan 2014)

Brendan dormant accounts told my uncles solicitor that all they have is a note on their screen to say account closed in 2002, they say they have no further info as it's too old. My worry is that people have money they think is safe and they leave it there this really could happen to anyone, we need access to micro Fiche records to show who closed, the money hasn't been transferred anywhere and there was no need for it to be transferred it was there for safe keeping.


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## dub_nerd (20 Jan 2014)

Coffey said:


> My worry is that people have money they think is safe and they leave it there this really could happen to anyone...


It wouldn't be normal to keep 200k in an account and never look at a statement in 12 years, though. Is there any way to chase up his old address to see if anyone kept the statements (a long shot, admittedly).


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## Coffey (20 Jan 2014)

Hi dub nerd, I have been to the old address as he was only renting there for years and no post goes there any more, he hadn't even seen any of his current account statements until we went to the bank in September but we managed to get copies of those going back 6 years. With the savings account the bank said they simply can't go back more than 6 years and therefore can't show us any records at all of who closed account. The mantra we are getting all the time is that it's too old, it's 2002 we are talking about not 1942 but apparently that's too old.


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## Bronte (20 Jan 2014)

Coffey said:


> The savings account is a separate account number of which we have a statement to show the money was there but according to the bank is now closed since 2002,


 
What is the last statement date that you have?


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## Coffey (20 Jan 2014)

The latest is for 1998, we have requested dirt tax statement from revenue, if any one has any other ideas how we can get a paper trail going as that's what's really needed.


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## Bronte (20 Jan 2014)

Was the account only in the uncle's name? Who would have access to any details on the uncle's bank accounts.  Has the bank clarified the actual closure date?  Where exactly was your uncle at that time?


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## wbbs (20 Jan 2014)

Not sure if Revenue are going to have anything specific on DIRT, is it not just paid in bulk by banks, my recollection is that they don't return individual amounts for accounts.

Access to microfiche may not show you a lot either if it simply showed a cash withdrawal to close, you would need a copy of the closing withdrawal form if they still have them on film.

If dormant accounts have it on record then that must be where it went initially anyway which would be usual if there was no contact on the account for that amount of time.


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## IsleOfMan (20 Jan 2014)

€200k was not taken in cash unless through an ATM over a period of time. How does the bank know that it was closed in 2002. Was there a specific date of closure and what was the amount taken when the account closed? Was it the full balance or the remaining balance. It is highly unlikely that someone would actually close the account rather they would draw down the balance and leave a few € in it.


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## Sunny (20 Jan 2014)

What the bank is saying is complete and utter rubbish. There most be at least an electronic trail of where the money went and how it was withdrawn. €200k is a significant movement of funds for any bank especially in 2002. 

A bank I used to work with around that time used to put all records about to be destroyed on microfiche so if you do have serious concerns you should escalate the issue. If you get nowhere and you think a crime has been committed (I would be surprised to be honest) then your relative might need to contact the Gardai.


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## Crugers (20 Jan 2014)

IIRC recent tribunals got lots of information from banks regarding transactions going back a lot further than 2002! So I would say that their "_...can't go back further than 6 years..._" is not the truth, the whole truth etc...

I agree with WBBS that info from the statement is unlikely to provide much other than whether the funds were dispersed over time or in one lump sum.

If the dormant account information given to the solicitor came from the department within the bank it doesn't help much. If the information came from NTMA - the final custodians of dormant account funds, then they MUST have details of how and who closed the account.

If you suspect fraud then you should/must alert the Gardai. The statute of limitations clock on fraud, AFAIK, starts ticking once the fraud is discovered!


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## Gervan (20 Jan 2014)

Certainly when we were working with clients providing information for amnesty on the foreign bank accounts investigation, banks were able to provide statements in microfiche form going back 20 years. 
I know we have had bank accounts changed on us by the banks, when they decided not to provide a particular kind of savings account. Perhaps the funds were transferred into a different type of account?


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## emeralds (20 Jan 2014)

Whose was the account holder? Was it just your relative or were there others as well?


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## Coffey (20 Jan 2014)

Hi I will try to answer all questions. The account is only in my uncles name, there were no other account holders on the account.  It was dormant accounts within the bank that told our solicitor that they can see on a screen the account was closed in 2002. My uncle never went near this account as there was no need. We have no proof of account closed or indeed a closing statement, the bank say these would have been posted out but of course my uncle had a stroke around same time and never in fact returned home to his own home after that, he was only renting there. At this stage we need paper evidence that the money was there, my uncle only has 2 bank statements showing the money is there in 1998 and thankfully he does as we wouldn't even have an account number otherwise.


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## Coffey (20 Jan 2014)

Thank you Gervan, the bank say there are no other accounts in my uncles name, they say they have gone through all their files, he is left with his current account only and all traces of his savings account seem to have disappeared. If we only could get copy statements that's all we need to find out what happened and why this account was closed, it wasn't dormant as we have 2 statements from 1998 and it was closed in 2002, why do banks close accounts, who closed it, these are all questions that we have no answers to and time is not on our side as he is not well.


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## Brendan Burgess (20 Jan 2014)

> why do banks close accounts,


Banks don't just close  accounts with balances in them unless the funds are transferred to the  dormant accounts section. Someone must have withdrawn the money.




> At this stage we need paper evidence that the money was there,



I don't think you need any  evidence more than you already have.  You have evidence that the money was there in 1998.

The bank will have to prove to you that the money was withdrawn since that date.  You are not able to prove the negative - that it was not withdrawn as you don't have statements after 2002. 

If  old bank statements were piling up in the  house where he lived, a more recent occupier may well have spotted an opportunity for fraud, especially if he knew your uncle was incapacitated. 

But even still, it would be very difficult to withdraw or transfer €200,000. They would have had to fake ID papers and the bank staff would have had to be happy with the new ID.  

It's also possible that an errant bank employee, knowing your uncle's position, initated or colluded in the withdrawal.   If the branch does not sort it out for you, then you should contact the bank's fraud or internal audit section.


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## Coffey (20 Jan 2014)

Thank you Brendan, I think that's great advice to contact the banks fraud department, we will do that thank you.


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## white knight (20 Jan 2014)

Firstly this is my first posting so excuse me if I make any mistakes.  Two things strike me about this post. 
The first, if time is not on your side might I suggest you encourage your relative to write into his will naming the beneficiaries of any future benefits if his claim against the bank is successful and perhaps make some clear reference giving power of attorney to the executor of his will in any dealings with the bank on this matter.  This type of action might prevent the obvious of the bank walking away if your relative was to decease before satisfactory conclusion. 

Secondly and just a long shot did the bank happen to say what month the account was closed?? the reason i ask the dormant account act came into effect in 2001 and accounts identified as having no transactions over the previous 15 years were deemed to have been dormant in September of that year and the funds were then transferred to the dormant account section of NTMA in March of the following year. Maybe a long shot but look at the dates see if they clash with this timeline. 

My understanding is the banks should have records although i think the truth could either be fraud as Brendan has suggested or incompetence around the transferring of funds in 2002/2003 for what would have been a new system.


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## Coffey (20 Jan 2014)

Thank you white knight, no the bank only gave us the year no month or anything. The constant mantra is that they are not obliged to keep anyone's records after 6 years, I might try their fraud department and see where that gets us.


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## Jim2007 (20 Jan 2014)

white knight said:


> My understanding is the banks should have records although i think the truth could either be fraud as Brendan has suggested or incompetence around the transferring of funds in 2002/2003 for what would have been a new system.



There is no obligation on the bank to hold such records for very long, once a business relationship has ended and in fact the DPA would prevent them for holding on to such data for such a long time.  The statute of limitations would be the bases for the 6 year rule...

If the account had been dormant then there would indeed be a record of it, but it does not look like that was the case.

Also, keep in mind that back in 2002/3 there was not nearly as much security involved in account management.

I hope this works out for the best, but I have my doubts...


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## pudds (20 Jan 2014)

I'm guessing this was not an on line savings account, but one with a passbook, if so is this missing and who would have had access to it while he was sick.


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## PaddyBloggit (20 Jan 2014)

If you're getting nowhere with the bank report it a case of theft to the Gardaí.


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## Coffey (20 Jan 2014)

No there is no pass book, our solicitor has suggested the Gardai too but we haven't gone that route yet as that will be a big strain for my uncle with his illness but we may have no choice. My concern is that this could happen to anybody, we are lucky we found out while he is alive but what happens if people think savings are safe, they pass on and their families are left to deal with such a situation, the whole thing has been an eye opener for me that I don't think will have a good outcome.


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## twofor1 (20 Jan 2014)

Coffey said:


> He didn't need money at all as he had a stroke was in Beaumont for 3 years then rehab for 2 years learning to walk again then in nursing home for past 8 years,



Hi Coffey,

Who has been next of kin for the 13 years your uncle has been unwell ? As in who do the hospitals, social workers, or in later years, the nursing home contact when there is any issue to do with your uncle ?

Has this always been the same person ?


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## Sunny (20 Jan 2014)

You need to find out what happened the money. Your uncle might have simply moved the money to another bank but forgotten about it if he was that ill. No bank should be unable to give basic details of a 200k movement of funds from 2002. If the paper records are no longer there, an electronic record must exist. They should be at least able to tell you how the money was repaid. Money just doesn't leave an account and go into thin air.


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## llgon (20 Jan 2014)

I think that you should follow the advice of your solicitor and other posters and go to the Gardaí. The bank seems to have done nothing to try and resolve this issue (which arose in September) so it is time to move on. You have already said that your uncle is distraught, I don't think it will make the situation any more stressful to involve the appropriate authorities.



Coffey said:


> My concern is that this could happen to anybody, we are lucky we found out while he is alive.....I don't think will have a good outcome..


 
Your main concern at the moment should be about your uncle and his money and recovering it if it has been misappropriated. If you don't get a good outcome you're unlikely to be counting yourselves lucky.


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## Coffey (21 Jan 2014)

I think I may also put in a complaint to the bank ombudsman as we are really getting nowhere with the bank, of course my main concern is my uncle I think I'm just gob smacked that the bank can't go back to 2002 as they think it's too old.  Thank you all for your replies and advice, I will keep you all updated as to how this goes.


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## Bronte (21 Jan 2014)

Did your solicitor write a letter to the bank?


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## Jim2007 (21 Jan 2014)

Coffey said:


> I think I may also put in a complaint to the bank ombudsman as we are really getting nowhere with the bank, of course my main concern is my uncle I think I'm just gob smacked that the bank can't go back to 2002 as they think it's too old.  Thank you all for your replies and advice, I will keep you all updated as to how this goes.



But what are you going to complain about?  The bank has informed you that the account was closed (not a dormant account or they would know about it) and they are under no obligation to retain records for so long after a business relationship has ended....  Unless you have actual evidence of wrong doing, then all it is going to amount to is a distraction.

At this point in time you only hope is the Garda and even that is going to be a long shot at this stage.  If it was someone close to the person, then by delaying going to the guards you're giving them even more time to cover their tracks, especially if they now know that you have found out.


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## Sunny (21 Jan 2014)

Coffey said:


> I think I may also put in a complaint to the bank ombudsman as we are really getting nowhere with the bank, of course my main concern is my uncle I think I'm just gob smacked that the bank can't go back to 2002 as they think it's too old.  Thank you all for your replies and advice, I will keep you all updated as to how this goes.



Don't waste your time going down this route. It's too slow even if they agree to do anything. You seem pretty adamant that €200k of your uncles money has gone missing from a bank account. Contact the Gardai. They have a direct line into the banks fraud department. All they have to do is make a call and the bank will investigate a lot quicker because it is a potential crime and there is potential liability for the bank. Surely chasing the bank with solicitors etc is more stressful for your uncle so I can't see why you wouldn't go to the Gardai. I imagine there is an explanation but you need to find what it is.


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## Brendan Burgess (21 Jan 2014)

I don't see any need to go to the Gardai yet. You will probably find it impossible to deal with the bank after that, as they will claim that there is a criminal investigation underway and won't talk to you any further. 

Contact the bank's fraud office first of all and see how you get on. 

Brendan


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## Coffey (21 Jan 2014)

Thank you all. Yes I have the letter here from the bank but it took several phone calls from our solicitor to even get a reply. I will quote directly from it. "I can confirm that account number xxxxxxxx closed in 2002. We have no records as to where it closed to as it is more than 7 years old. We have no other information on this account and we can only access information on account transactions for the previous seven years and the information you are requesting is outside this period. Closing statements on this account would have been sent to Mr. X."
Since we got this letter at end of November having found out the money was gone at a meeting in early September we have written to the banks off site branch where they hold micro fiche but haven't even had a reply.


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## Brendan Burgess (21 Jan 2014)

HI Coffey

What level was the reply from? 

Was it from the local branch? 

Brendan


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## Coffey (21 Jan 2014)

Thank you Brendan I,will do that today.


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## Coffey (21 Jan 2014)

Brendan yes the letter was from the Manager that we first went to see in September she witnessed the distraught of my uncle got him a glass of water etc when all this was found out. It was a lady then in Dormant accounts within the bank who later told us it was closed in 2002 they did not know this at the time at branch level in September so just told us no record of savings accounts at all. We followed up ourselves with dormant accounts who wouldn't tell us anything but said they would be prepared to give information to the manager we first saw. So thats what happened, dormant accounts within the bank gave the information she could see on her screen to the Manager we first saw and the letter is a result of that. Thankfully we had a statement from 1998 with the savings account number on it, as if we hadn't that - all knowledge that account did exist would be gone.


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## wbbs (21 Jan 2014)

I think the branch are the ones who should be escalating this complaint for you, you should not need to be contacting the microfiche dept or the dormant accounts, in my opinion this should be investigated by the branch that held the account.  

Has it been logged as a complaint on the banks own internal system and is the letter you received the final response letter or just the only reply?


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## Jim2007 (21 Jan 2014)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Contact the bank's fraud office first of all and see how you get on.



There are a few problems here, first of all there is no evidence of a fraud and secondly the bank's relationship with the client ended 12 years ago with the client closing the account.  And presumably there has been no communication with the bank by the client until he turned up looking for his money.  So there is not much chance of there being a lot of documentation for them to go on.

I can think of about four possible events:

- Someone at the bank took it or it was converted into a dormant account.

- The client moved it and has forgotten all about it

- Someone who was trusted by both the client and the bank staff at the time closed the account and walked away with the money.

- A complete stranger got his hands on the client details and then either conned his way past the bank staff or somehow got one of them to cooperate with him in the theft.

Even back in 2002, there was reasonable control checks within the banks, so I expect the first option is not very likely and I'd rank fourth option as also unlikely.  But the second and third options are definite possibilities.  In either case the Guards would be the best suited to doing such an investigation.

In the case of the third option it is important that the Guards get involved as soon as possible, because the longer you wait the better the chance that the person will be able to cover their tracks if they have not already done so.


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## Coffey (21 Jan 2014)

The letter received is the only reply so far, we are still waiting on micro Fiche department.


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## twofor1 (21 Jan 2014)

Hi Coffey,

I asked earlier; Who has been next of kin for the 13 years your uncle has been unwell ? As in who do the hospitals, social workers, or in later years, the nursing home contact when there is any issue to do with your uncle ?

Has this always been the same person ?

Maybe I should have been clearer why I ask, very often this person is also the person who would administer the sick person’s affairs, look after bank accounts, and pay their bills etc, and as such might have all the answers.

I administer all affairs for two elderly relatives in nursing homes, and I can account for every cent going back many years, but if you asked anyone else in the family, most would not have a clue. No doubt someday I will be asked to explain where savings have gone, and will have no problem doing so.


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## 44brendan (21 Jan 2014)

As a banker this all sounds very strange to me. I'm not as up to date with the laws and Central Bank regulations relating to deposits as I used to be. However, a deposit with a bank is not a debt, so the statute of regulations does not apply. All banks are obliged to hold documentation for a maximum of 6 years so the actual signed authority to close the account would not be to hand. However, all banks will have transactional information going back well before that period which will state how these funds were disbursed. Internal rules re withdrawals from dormant accounts are very strict and it is not easy to resurrect a dormant account without triggering some alarms internally. particularly if this level of funds is involved. Your uncles solicitor should now write a formal letter to the Bank HO stating the exact circumstances of the case and requesting full details of how the account was closed and what happened to the funds. The Bank will have this information available and I am surprised that it was not given to your uncle upon request.


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## hfp (21 Jan 2014)

You definitely need to go down the legal route.  Statements *will* be held by the bank on microfiche. I used to work for a bank, and the standard policy was a limitation 6 years for standard duplicate statement requests, but earlier statements could be reproduced on production of a court order.


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## dewdrop (21 Jan 2014)

From a legal aspect is there any onus on banks to keep records for 12 years or more.  This matter must have come up in the past during all the Tribunal hearings.


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## DingDing (1 Feb 2014)

Would it be possible to get your solicitor to contact all the local banks to see if your uncle transferred the money and forgot about it. Or was your uncle in the home when the account was closed and he could not have possible moved the money.


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## Kimmagegirl (1 Feb 2014)

Every bank has a Law Department. There is no point dealing with the local branch at this stage.


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## commonsense (1 Feb 2014)

Coffey said:


> Brendan dormant accounts told my uncles solicitor that all they have is a note on their screen to say account closed in 2002, they say they have no further info as it's too old. My worry is that people have money they think is safe and they leave it there this really could happen to anyone, we need access to micro Fiche records to show who closed, the money hasn't been transferred anywhere and there was no need for it to be transferred it was there for safe keeping.




Has your Uncle tried the "Data Protection Commissioner" ? 

"Under Section 4 of the Data Protection Acts, 1988 and 2003, you have a right to obtain a copy, clearly explained, of any information relating to you kept on computer or in a structured manual filing system or intended for such a system by any entity or organisation. All you need to do is write to the organisation or entity concerned and ask for it under the Data Protection Acts. "

Here is a sample letter:

"Dear,

I wish to make an access request under Section 4 of the Data Protection Acts 1988 and 2003 for a copy of any information you keep about me, on computer or in manual form in relation to.... (Fill in as much information as possible to assist the organisations to locate the data that you are interested in accessing e.g. customer account number, staff number, or PPS number (if you are writing to a public sector organisation such as the Revenue Commissioners or the Department of Social Protection))."

There's a lot more information on the site dataprotection.ie.

Hope it helps.


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## dewdrop (1 Feb 2014)

apologies if this question already asked. Did the bank indicate the amount of the transaction which closed the account. Was it for a large amount or a small sum which would indicate previous withdrawals.  I would not rule out internal fraud which can happen.  In the past banks were slow to call in the Garda but maybe this attitude has changed in latter years.


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## commonsense (1 Feb 2014)

Coffey said:


> He didn't need money at all as he had a stroke was in Beaumont for 3 years then rehab for 2 years learning to walk again then in nursing home for past 8 years, he had a small pension going into his current account and old age pension, it's his savings account that has been closed on him by the bank, my concern is this could happen to anyone, just because the bank says one thing doesn't mean it's true!



Coffey - when did he have the stroke? Reading this it seems that he has been in hospital for 13 years - 2001?

Edit to add. Also what kind of savings account was it? If it was a regular savings account then your uncle would have had to give notice to the bank to withdraw the money or to transfer it to another account (14 days notice I believe).


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## Lightning (1 Feb 2014)

commonsense said:


> If it was a regular savings account then your uncle would have had to give notice to the bank to withdraw the money or to transfer it to another account (14 days notice I believe).



Most regular saver accounts are instant access accounts.


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## commonsense (1 Feb 2014)

CiaranT said:


> Most regular saver accounts are instant access accounts.




Hi Ciaran, there are different types of savings accounts - instant access or regular, it really depends on what type of account he had. I have a BOI "regular" savings account and I have to give 14 days notice if I want to withdraw money. There is then the instant access where you don't.

Even if it was an "instant" access savings account I would imagine (and I stand to be corrected) that to close this and withdraw such a large amount the bank would have required some notice.


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## Coffey (1 Feb 2014)

Dewdrop,  the bank can only see on their screen closed 2002 no other information available. It was an instant access account. We will try data protection commissioner thank you as we have not done that. There are no other bank accounts in other banks all that has been looked into, the Gardai is are next option.


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## hippy1975 (2 Feb 2014)

Coffey, from an earlier post you said it was the dormant acc section of the bank that provided the only information you have, i.e. that the acc was closed in 2002 -  does this mean it was closed as a dormant acc, or were they saying for some reason they were the only dept that could see a trace of the acc?
You say it wasn't dormant because you have the 1998 statements, but statements don't count as activity (or nothing would ever be dormant) - only transactions would count as activity. 

To confirm this one way or the other I would start with immediately  initiating a reclaim of dormant acc funds, to see what comes back, their reply should then confirm whether it was closed as a dormant acc or not and you can go from there. If not closed as dormant then you know it's either 1) fraud or 2) your Uncle closed the acc and forgot.
Making this claim might just focus the banks attention in the right way.
You can get the [broken link removed] website, I would submit that and then in 28 days you know for definite whether or not it was closed as dormant.


Commonsense's suggestion of requesting info under the DPA could backfire in this case as, while the bank has an obligation to retain your information under the DPA while someone is a customer and hold it securely etc etc they are also obliged under the DPA to destroy that information after 7 (I think it's 7 not 6 yrs but anyway) years following the cessation of the customer relationship, I.e. the closure of the acc, so in this case to quote the DPA and ask the bank to provide the info would be to ask them to confirm that they have NOT fulfilled their obligations under the DPA and destroyed the info when they should have........I wouldn't go at it from that angle, I would start at Dormant Accs.

As 44Brendan stated, I would be entirely confident the transactional information is within the bank somewhere, it's just a matter of getting past the 'computer says no' response and getting someone to take their finger out and investigate it internally.  Even if the bank has a system to purge dormant acc info that would only purge it on the live system, any transaction information that may be held on reports or microfiche (if they still do that) would still be there somewhere. 


As regards your concern that this could happen to anyone else, to be honest that's the reason the lengths of time designated  are so long - no transaction for 15 years for an acc to be dormant, and 6 / 7 yrs for information to be destroyed under the Data Protection Act - the thinking is that any queries there are should arise within that time, there is an onus on the account holder to query if they don't receive correspondence for 6 years or so, you must admit its most peculiar that your uncle didn't question why he hadn't received a statement in 12 years!  

I still wouldn't rule out that your Uncle may have moved the money and forgot, sounds like there was a lot going on.


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## commonsense (2 Feb 2014)

Hi Hippy, for an account to be classed as dormant it would have to entail zero activity for 15 years. If it was closed in 2002 then this would mean zero activity since 1987, maybe Coffey could clarify?

Coffey already contacted them and the information they have is the same as the information that the bank has - the account was closed.

Not only that, but while it's possible that the savings account was not active for some years, it was linked to an active Current account where his pension still goes (Coffey said that the savings account was on DD from the current account, which is all in order), so to my mind the "customer" relationship did not cease when the savings account was closed.

"As 44Brendan stated, I would be entirely confident the transactional information is within the bank somewhere, it's just a matter of getting past the 'computer says no' response and getting someone to take their finger out and investigate it internally. Even if the bank has a system to purge dormant acc info that would only purge it on the live system, any transaction information that may be held on reports or microfiche (if they still do that) would still be there somewhere. "

Re the above - this is exactly why I advised Coffey to apply under the data protection act, as this is exactly the information that is needed and if the bank have this information then they are not in breach of the act as it is purely transactional. 

Again I would advise Coffey to try and pinpoint where her uncle was when the account was closed. If the Uncle is adamant that he did not close the account and it can be shown that he was in hospital and very unwell at the time it closed then I would contact the Gardai because there is something completely not right about this situation.


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## rameire (3 Feb 2014)

just a little input from me.

what stands out to me is the year 2002,
the euro change over.
it may have been that all accounts were "closed" due to the punt to euro swap, and all old accounts were given new account numbers.

maybe the staff you are dealing with were not around during or just after the changeover so they may not know of new account numbers for old punt accounts.

its only an assumption.


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## PMU (4 Feb 2014)

I’m not certain an application under the DPA will give rise to any relevant information.   The obligation is that “[personal] data shall not be kept for longer than is necessary for that purpose or those purposes [for which it was obtained]".  Retention periods are not specified in the DPA and it is a matter for the data controller to decide on the appropriate retention period.  So personal data relating to the account holder could well have been destroyed, in compliance the DPA, after a short period [unless the bank is required to retain it for a longer period under some other statute or regulation].  Similarly with any back-up data, it would depend on the bank, but why would a bank retain back-up data for a long period, if there were no business reason to reconstitute the a/c? 

  However, under the Dormant Accounts Act 2001 http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/pdf/2001/en.act.2001.0032.pdf the bank is required to notify the account holder of its intention to transfer  the a/c to the NTMA on behalf of the State.  You should look at Section 2 Notification Procedures of the DAA and ask the bank to provide you with copies of all correspondence sent to the account holder, as provided for in the DAA  .  The dormant account section in the bank says the a/c was closed in 2002, but when?   Was it closed before 31 March 2002 the date after which the bank is required to notify an a/c holder under the Dormant Account Act?  Or earlier?  If they say they did not write to the a/c holder because the a/c was closed before the prescribed date, ask them what evidence they have for this - which is the evidence you want on the a/c closure; otherwise they could be in breach of their obligations under the DAA.


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## RainyDay (4 Feb 2014)

You should help your uncle to submit a Data Protection request for a copy of all records and documents relating to the account and transactions on the account. Refer to microfiche and backups in your request, so they are obliged to search these. They can charge you €6.35 for this service.


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## thedaddyman (4 Feb 2014)

44brendan said:


> As a banker this all sounds very strange to me. I'm not as up to date with the laws and Central Bank regulations relating to deposits as I used to be. However, a deposit with a bank is not a debt, so the statute of regulations does not apply. All banks are obliged to hold documentation for a maximum of 6 years so the actual signed authority to close the account would not be to hand. However, all banks will have transactional information going back well before that period which will state how these funds were disbursed. Internal rules re withdrawals from dormant accounts are very strict and it is not easy to resurrect a dormant account without triggering some alarms internally. particularly if this level of funds is involved. Your uncles solicitor should now write a formal letter to the Bank HO stating the exact circumstances of the case and requesting full details of how the account was closed and what happened to the funds. The Bank will have this information available and I am surprised that it was not given to your uncle upon request.


 

I thought that at the time of the Moriarity tribunal, a legal embargo was put in place on the destruction of banking records. Certainly I know at least one of the banks has destroyed nothing since then and has warehouses full of paper. I know that bank still regards the embargo as being in place.

The issue here may be that the bank cannot find the paperwork. Awful to say in 2014 but much of their records are still on paper either at the branch or in a physical warehouse


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