# Trademark or patent required?



## Pope John 11 (18 Feb 2010)

Looking at getting into designing casual clothes wear with a difference.

My query relates to lets say:

1. Companies like fcuk & Gap - Have they obtained a trademark for these words on clothesware or a patent.

2. Company like Nike - Has it obtained a trademark for the shape, 'correct symbol' or a patent.


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## WaterSprite (18 Feb 2010)

Pope John 11 said:


> Looking at getting into designing casual clothes wear with a difference.
> 
> My query relates to lets say:
> 
> ...



All are trademarks, including the Nike "swoosh".  You could not get a patent on any of those things.


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## Pope John 11 (18 Feb 2010)

WaterSprite said:


> All are trademarks, including the Nike "swoosh". You could not get a patent on any of those things.


 
Thanks Watersprite, helpful as ever, appreciate it. How long does it take to get a trade mark & whatabout copyright?

Is it possible to check a list of trademarks online or somewhere?


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## WaterSprite (18 Feb 2010)

Hi Pope

Copyright vests automatically & isn't required to be registered, but you can register it if you want.  It's unusual enough to do so but gives you extra remedies for infringement if you do.

A trademark can take 6-12 months and probably costs in the region of €2k for an EU trademark.

You can search all registered trademarks in different jurisdictions - there's no global central database.

Irish ones here
EU ones [broken link removed]
US trademarks


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## Pope John 11 (18 Feb 2010)

WaterSprite said:


> Hi Pope
> 
> Copyright vests automatically & isn't required to be registered, but you can register it if you want. It's unusual enough to do so but gives you extra remedies for infringement if you do.
> 
> ...


Thanks for that Watersprite, & I was hoping to knuckle down straight away, have to wait 6-12 months. Gives me time to research the idea, I suppose. Would it be possible to be incubated for this period of time or should I wait. I will definately need funding, but am afraid to talk to anyone until I have the trademark/copyright. Any comments Watersprite.

I could do with learning some business course too, or setting up your own business.


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## jhegarty (18 Feb 2010)

What exactly are you trying to protect.

Just the company name ?


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## WaterSprite (18 Feb 2010)

Hi Pope

we've really discussed all this quite a bit on AAM.  There are numerous sources of funding, there are a number of start your own business courses & I recall a long discussion on disclosing ideas via NDA.  Have you contacted EI or your local enterprise board to discuss options?  

To be frank, no one will give you funding for a "secret" idea.  If the value is in the trademark, you don't have to disclose that if you don't want to, but the business idea may be less compelling to a potential investor if you think the actual trademark is where the value is.  I also doubt whether a trademark in and of itself will be the determining factor as to the success of the business.  

As I said, copyright vests automatically so it doesn't exist until you write something; likewise, it automatically comes into existence once you do.

You have the option of either starting work on your project now (or contracting someone to do some of the work) and funding it yourself, or seeking funding for your idea before you have developed anything other than the idea itself.  To do that, you will have to disclose the idea & your business plan to your potential investors- there's no other realistic way.

Sprite

p.s. a trademark application gives you priority from the filing date.  It is worth something in and of itself (assuming you've done a reasonable search to ensure there isn't a similar one already granted) & doesn't mean that you have nothing for the 6-12 months you wait for approval of the trademark.


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## Pope John 11 (18 Feb 2010)

WaterSprite said:


> Hi Pope
> 
> we've really discussed all this quite a bit on AAM. There are numerous sources of funding, there are a number of start your own business courses & I recall a long discussion on disclosing ideas via NDA. Have you contacted EI or your local enterprise board to discuss options?


 
I will check up on AAM, the other threads. I have not contactd EI, just thought of the idea yesterday.



WaterSprite said:


> To be frank, no one will give you funding for a "secret" idea. If the value is in the trademark, you don't have to disclose that if you don't want to, but the business idea may be less compelling to a potential investor if you think the actual trademark is where the value is. I also doubt whether a trademark in and of itself will be the determining factor as to the success of the business.


 I understand



WaterSprite said:


> As I said, copyright vests automatically so it doesn't exist until you write something; likewise, it automatically comes into existence once you do.


 Ok



WaterSprite said:


> You have the option of either starting work on your project now (or contracting someone to do some of the work) and funding it yourself, or seeking funding for your idea before you have developed anything other than the idea itself. To do that, you will have to disclose the idea & your business plan to your potential investors- there's no other realistic way.
> 
> Sprite


 
Ok



WaterSprite said:


> p.s. a trademark application gives you priority from the filing date. It is worth something in and of itself (assuming you've done a reasonable search to ensure there isn't a similar one already granted) & doesn't mean that you have nothing for the 6-12 months you wait for approval of the trademark.


 
Ok

I tried to check through the irish website for trademarks. Is it possible to display all trademarks, without putting in the company name. Otherwise I will find it difficult to find. 



jhegarty said:


> What exactly are you trying to protect.Just the company name ?


 
I am trying to trademark a particular shape that already exists. My company will be attached to the shape. Is that possible?


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## onq (18 Feb 2010)

I'm wondering where the 2K and six months come from.

I remember looking at this a few months back and there was a service for registration for around €70.00 - am I misremembering this?

ONQ.


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## jhegarty (18 Feb 2010)

Pope John 11 said:


> I am trying to trademark a particular shape that already exists. My company will be attached to the shape. Is that possible?



It's quite complex on something generic like a shape.

Read up on the long running case between Apple (the mac/iPod company) versus Apple (the music publisher).

It should give you some good insights.


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## Pope John 11 (18 Feb 2010)

jhegarty said:


> It's quite complex on something generic like a shape.
> 
> Read up on the long running case between Apple (the mac/iPod company) versus Apple (the music publisher).
> 
> It should give you some good insights.


 
Thanks for that jhegarty. I will. You don't have a link to that case do you jhegarty? I just did a search & could'nt find it

Its like say for example using an existing shape of a hexagon & inscribing my company name with a certain form of text that already exists, if you get me. (Of course its not a hexagon), just an example.


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## Pope John 11 (18 Feb 2010)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Corps

There is a bit on it in here. I'll go through it.


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## jhegarty (18 Feb 2010)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Corps_v_Apple_Computer

If you have words on the shape then it's easy. It's only using the generic shape on it's own would be difficult.


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## Pope John 11 (18 Feb 2010)

Cheers for that jhegarty, I was thinking that.


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## Pope John 11 (18 Feb 2010)

onq said:


> I'm wondering where the 2K and six months come from.
> 
> I remember looking at this a few months back and there was a service for registration for around €70.00 - am I misremembering this?
> 
> ONQ.


 
Any comments on the above jhegarty, watersprite & others.


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## Pope John 11 (20 Feb 2010)

Is it possible to take two existing objects, combine them together & patent it? I have an idea for the Your Country Your Call and I think it my work. Can someone explain the terms & conditions. I have posted it here.
http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=132394


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## WaterSprite (20 Feb 2010)

Pope John 11 said:


> Any comments on the above jhegarty, watersprite & others.



You can register it yourself, yes.  The cost would be lower (€70 for an application in Ireland) but the timeline wouldn't be shorter.  The €2k and 6 months comes from my direct experience in dealing with trademark agents for registering companies' trademarks & the cost would be an estimate for an Irish & EU trademark.  

Here and here and here are the previous threads on patents & NDAs I was thinking about.


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## Pope John 11 (20 Feb 2010)

Pope John 11 said:


> Is it possible to take two existing objects, combine them together & patent it? I have an idea for the Your Country Your Call and I think it my work. Can someone explain the terms & conditions. I have posted it here.
> http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=132394


 
Like I said watersprite, you are very helpful, thanks again.


Watersprite, can you comment on,


1. If it is possible to take two existing objects, put them together to create one, patent it & sell it as a product?


2. I am a bit concerned about the *TERMS & CONDITIONS*. Appreciate your answer on this one.


3. Whos to say that your-country-your-call will take two of the ideas & mingle them together to form one?


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## WaterSprite (20 Feb 2010)

The terms basically state that (i) if you win the competition, you have to assign full & exclusive rights to the Promoters (or whoever they nominate) (ii) if you don't win, you have to allow them to use your Proposal for the purposes of the competition.  You retain the rights; their right to use the Proposal terminates when you exit the competition.

They can modify/merge your idea if they want.

The Proposals do not have to be kept confidential.

On your patent question - if the sum of the parts passes the test of patentability, then such a combination could be patented.


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## Pope John 11 (20 Feb 2010)

WaterSprite said:


> The terms basically state that (i) if you win the competition, you have to assign full & exclusive rights to the Promoters (or whoever they nominate)


 
So, I cannot have involvement in the idea after, ner can you profit from it, in other words your dream idea is over after they hand you the cheque, not what I wanted to hear, don't know what to do now, its a pity




WaterSprite said:


> (ii) if you don't win, you have to allow them to use your Proposal for the purposes of the competition. You retain the rights; their right to use the Proposal terminates when you exit the competition.


 You retain the rights to what, though, can you make a profit from producing your product? etc.




WaterSprite said:


> On your patent question - if the sum of the parts passes the test of patentability, then such a combination could be patented.


 Thanks for this info watersprite.


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## WaterSprite (20 Feb 2010)

Pope John 11 said:


> You retain the rights to what, though, can you make a profit from producing your product? etc.



Yes, you can do whatever you want with your idea if it's not incorporated into the winning entry.


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## Pope John 11 (20 Feb 2010)

WaterSprite said:


> Yes, you can do whatever you want with your idea if it's not incorporated into the winning entry.


 
Afraid alot of what I have may be incorporated, I think.

It includes covering a wide field of unemployment fields & also products.

Even if they only let me have a % royalities of the products, I would be very happy, wishful thinking though.

God, I'm at the end of the barrel on this one, is it best that I now go to the enterprise board


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## Pope John 11 (21 Feb 2010)

WaterSprite said:


> The terms basically state that (i) if you win the competition, you have to assign full & exclusive rights to the Promoters (or whoever they nominate) (ii) if you don't win, you have to allow them to use your Proposal for the purposes of the competition. You retain the rights; their right to use the Proposal terminates when you exit the competition.


 
You retain the rights, what does this mean exactly? Can you benefit in some way from this?



WaterSprite said:


> They can modify/merge your idea if they want.


 Where does it say this in the T & C's?



WaterSprite said:


> The Proposals do not have to be kept confidential.


 Where does it say this in the T & C's

Sorry for all the questions, but I need to exhaust everything.


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## WaterSprite (21 Feb 2010)

Pope John 11 said:


> You retain the rights, what does this mean exactly? Can you benefit in some way from this?



See my answer in post 21.  You can do what you want with it if you don't win. 



Pope John 11 said:


> Where does it say this in the T & C's?



7.1(c)  Also, the full transfer of IP in Section 7.2 means they can do whatever they want with the winning entry.



Pope John 11 said:


> Where does it say this in the T & C's



7.5, (do a search for "confidential")



Pope John 11 said:


> Sorry for all the questions, but I need to exhaust everything.



If you intend to enter this competition, you need to understand the terms fully as you seem concerned with the transfer of IP and not being able to exploit your idea further if you win (which is the case - if you won, you get the money, that's it).  If you are serious about entering this competition and have these concerns, you should talk to a solicitor.


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## Pope John 11 (21 Feb 2010)

WaterSprite said:


> See my answer in post 21. You can do what you want with it if you don't win.


 So if you patent something now, then enter the competition & don't win you have all the rights back. 

AND they cannot use it?



WaterSprite said:


> If you intend to enter this competition, you need to understand the terms fully as you seem concerned with the transfer of IP and not being able to exploit your idea further if you win (which is the case - if you won, you get the money, that's it).


 
Yes, its my concern alright, not sure how I could benefit from it afterwards if I did win. It will look good on a recently unemployed mans CV though.



WaterSprite said:


> If you are serious about entering this competition and have these concerns, you should talk to a solicitor.


 
I might have to do that.



WaterSprite said:


> Yes, you can do whatever you want with your idea if it's not incorporated into the winning entry.


If I don't win, & they incorporate PART of my idea into the winning entry, what is the situation?

Is it possible Watersprite to apply for two seperate patents?
1. Patent No.1 + big idea = Your Country, Your Call
Patent No. 1 will only apply to a certain product.
2. Patent No. 2 = My own royalities & will not be entered into Your Country, Your Call
Patent No. 2 will apply to all other products, excluding the patented product from Patent No. 1

I hope you understand this.


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