# How does Executor file CGT return for the estate



## ricta (29 Aug 2017)

I am an Executor disposing of an asset (house) as part of the administration of my late mother's estate. I understand it is my duty to make a CGT return, the property has increased in value since the date of death. From another post hehre "According to TCA 1997 s 573, personal representatives are chargeable on gains arising on the sale of assets _during estate administration."_

I have searched the Revenue site for instructions but cannot see which is the correct form or mechanism to use for this purpose. Personally, I am a ROS and Form 11 user.

After the sale, and CGT payment, the residue will be distributed to beneficiaries.

Can anyone tell me how, as Adminstrator, I should make the CGT payment for the estate? What form is used?

thanks


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## ricta (29 Aug 2017)

after some more digging I eventually found a download of Form 1, this looks like the form I need to use. I hink i will have to have a chat with Revenue to see how they will differentiate the return from my own personal tax return.


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## Black Sheep (31 Aug 2017)

If they have a local office nearby it might be worth you while popping in to them. They were very helpful when I was sorting out my parents estate and offered to complete forms for me.


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## ricta (31 Aug 2017)

yes, I'm near a local revenue office, will drop in.


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## Brendan Burgess (1 Sep 2017)

Hi ricta

I too am having difficulties in this area.

I sold a house as executor in Dec 2016. 
I searched the Revenue website to find out how to pay the CGT and, to my astonishment, could find nothing. 
I searched online and found nothing. 
I rang Revenue - I got someone who had no idea what I was talking about. So I asked for her supervisor who answered very confidently and completely incorrectly. She insisted that the beneficiaries should all file separate CGT returns.  She just would not listen to me telling her that this made no sense at all. 

An accountant told me that it was very simple. I could not make a return using the deceased's PPS number, so he said to send in a Form 11 with a cheque and  a covering letter. I did that and closed my file. 

They allocated the payment and the return to my personal PPS number.  11 exchanges of correspondence later and the payment is allocated to the deceased's new PPS number, but the return is still under my number. To make things more complicated, I had paid preliminary CGT for myself back in December 2016, so they are trying to give me a refund as the CGT I paid was more than the deceased's liability. 

So if you find out how to do it, please do a Key Post for others to follow. 

Brendan


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## jpd (1 Sep 2017)

When I was doing this, I applied for a separate PPS number for the estate - we had some income tax and then CGT to file


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## Brendan Burgess (1 Sep 2017)

That makes sense. I think that the problem I had was that I sold the property in December and had to pay it by January and so could not wait for them to provide a new PPS number. 

So maybe the thing for the Executor to do is to apply for the new PPS number well in advance?

Brendan


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## PMU (1 Sep 2017)

There is no need to get a separate PPS no for the estate.  Make the payment to the Collector General using the appropriate payslip, i.e. CGT payslip A or B.  Use the PPS No of the deceased on the payslip.   Make your return on form CG1.  The Tax Reference No is the PPS number of the deceased.   In the Name & Address box write 'Estate of Ms. XXX (Deceased)' and the deceased's  address after the name in the Name & Address box.  When you sign it, write 'Executor' in the Capacity box.


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## ricta (2 Sep 2017)

PMU said:


> There is no need to get a separate PPS no for the estate.  Make the payment to the Collector General using the appropriate payslip, i.e. CGT payslip A or B.  Use the PPS No of the deceased on the payslip.   Make your return on form CG1.  The Tax Reference No is the PPS number of the deceased.   In the Name & Address box write 'Estate of Ms. XXX (Deceased)' and the deceased's  address after the name in the Name & Address box.  When you sign it, write 'Executor' in the Capacity box.



excellant advice, I was going to use Form 1 which has boxes to fill that say I would be acting as an executor of an estate, but I think I will try this instead.

Actually, I will compare Form 1 and CG1 and see which is best for applying the above advice.


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## ricta (2 Sep 2017)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Hi ricta
> 
> I too am having difficulties in this area.



I'm not surprised Brendan, and hoping the advice here will reduce my pain! I have obtained Probate in three personal applications, and I have learned that the best qualification to have is "the patience of Job" and an understanding that it is difficult to find individuals in our public services (Revenue, the Courts) with in-depth knowledge of the subject matter.

It will take some time yet for the sale to conclude, I will update when it's over.


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## PMU (2 Sep 2017)

ricta said:


> Actually, I will compare Form 1 and CG1 and see which is best for applying the above advice.


Form 1? Do you mean 'Form 1 Tax Return and Self-Assessment for the year 20XX (relating to taxes on income and capital gains'? If you are just making a return on CGT, I would suggest form CG1.

Form 1 is for trusts; estates under administration and certain corporate bodies. If you are just disposing of an asset, as per your first post, you are paying GCT, and form CG1 should be adequate.

I have submitted the paper rendition of Form 1, to make returns on the income of a trust, in previous years to Revenue using the deceased's PPSN as the tax reference no. with no problems. However, Form 1 is now, i.e. from year 2016 returns onwards, electronic only. Which means you need an digital certificate from Revenue to submit the form on ROS; except if you are like me in the PAYE sector and apply for such a certificate, Revenue automatically takes you out of PAYEAnytime, which I now can't access or make my personal tax returns under PAYEAnytime anymore, so I'll have to sort that out. And it gets more complicated after that. . . . So unless you are making a return of untaxed income received by the estate, form CG1 should suffice for the CGT return.


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## ricta (2 Sep 2017)

PMU said:


> Form 1 is for trusts; estates under administration and certain corporate bodies. If you are just disposing of an asset, as per your first post, you are paying GCT, and form CG1 should be adequate.
> 
> Which means you need an digital certificate from Revenue to submit the form on ROS; except if you are like me in the PAYE sector and apply for such a certificate,



The asset being disposed of is still in the estate under administration, the proceeds will be distributed to the beneficiaries after the estate has paid the CGT, that's why Form 1 seems more applicable. than CG1, and should keep the matter seperate from my own tax affairs.

I am already a ROS user, so I will be able to submit it electronically, if I can find the form in ROS.


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## Brendan Burgess (19 Sep 2017)

OK, I got a call back from Revenue to explain that they had now sorted out the returns and payments. 

They told me that the correct procedure for an Executor is to apply to the Registration Section at your local tax office  for a new Registration Number for the estate.  He said that they might do it over the phone, but if not, write to them. 

Brendan


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## Brendan Burgess (19 Sep 2017)

PMU said:


> There is no need to get a separate PPS no for the estate. Make the payment to the Collector General using the appropriate payslip, i.e. CGT payslip A or B. Use the PPS No of the deceased on the payslip.



PMU - this is contrary to what Revenue told me.  Have you actually done this recently?

I suspect that it's not strictly correct, but that Revenue accept the return and make out a new number.

I have again checked Revenue's website and I can't find any information on registering an estate with a new number. 

Brendan


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## ricta (19 Sep 2017)

Thanks Brendan. Knowing that should ease the process greatly for me. Contracts of Sale have not been signed yet, so it could be a month or more before I get to contact Revenue.


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## Brendan Burgess (19 Sep 2017)

Hi ricta

Why not contact them now and get the registration process done?

I had a problem in that the contract closed in December and so I had to pay the tax by the following January.  I was too close to the deadline to wait for a number to be issued.

So do it now when there is no pressure.

And, you can report back here with the latest practice.

Brendan


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## ricta (19 Sep 2017)

yes indeed, you are absolutely correct. I'll call into them tomorrow.

"For disposals made between 1 January and 30 November (the initial period) you must pay CGT by 15 December of the same year.

For disposals made between 1 December and 31 December (the later period) you must pay CGT by 31 January of the next year."


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## PMU (19 Sep 2017)

You submit documents on paper using the PPSN of the deceased and Revenue just take the tax. If you can submit a paper form, e.g. CGT1, just do that and send the tax plus payslip to the Collector-General in Limerick.   Send the form to the deceased's tax office.  You are complying with your legal obligations.

Likewise I have previously submitted a paper form 1 concerning income tax for the estate.  However, if mandatory e-filing is required, e.g. for income tax of an estate for 2016 returns onwards, you need an appropriate electronic certificate for the estate seperate from your own identity. To do this I had to submit a form TR1 for 'estates under administration' and Revenue provided me with a tax reference number for the estate for the relevant tax return. I used this to obtain a digital certificate for the estate.  So far so good.

Unfortunately, it hasn't actually worked, in that ROS rejected the form 1.  I've submitted a query to Revenue (ROS) on Sept 15 on this and am awaiting a response.


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## Brendan Burgess (19 Sep 2017)

PMU said:


> You submit documents on paper using the PPSN of the deceased and Revenue just take the tax.



That is what I did. Except that they asked me for my own ppsn and allocated the payment and return to me. 

I think it's a lot cleaner to get a new number.   It has taken me months to clean up the mess. 

Brendan


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## Vanilla (19 Sep 2017)

You should have asked for specialist advice and avoided the mess.


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## bipped (26 Sep 2017)

There seems to be different advice depending on who you talk to.

Different Revenue departments had conflicting advice - the income tax told me that each beneficiary receives their portion of the house sale proceeds and makes an individual CGT return. I'm not sure how individual beneficiaries would calculate CGT if the gain is on something they didn't own - the house 'belonged' to the estate when the gain was made.

It seems the way to handle this would be as PMU suggested. Thank you.


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## ricta (11 Oct 2017)

_I sent a letter to my local tax office, I considered this was wiser than calling in, considering the limited hours they are open to the public, and I reckoned a letter had a better chance of finding a person in the know, than I would at the counter.

I explained I was executor administering the estate of the deceased and was selling a property that is part of the estate and I required a tax registration number for the estate so that CGT could be returned.

I gave them my details and the deceased's details including our PPSN's.

Three weeks later I received a letter with a registration number, for CGT purposes, for the estate.

Still waiting for sale contracts to be signed so not in a position to make a return yet. When I am, I will use Form 1 (for a trust or an estate) and use the registration number I have just been given. _


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## PMU (26 Oct 2017)

Concerning the payment of CGT and income by an estate, I submitted the Form 1 electronically (worked without any problem the second time). There are sections on the form to declare capital gains and income. Revenue subsequently sent me a single debt authority payslip (i.e. paper form) for the CGT but with the PPSN of the estate as the identifier.

So if you have an estate or a trust that is required to make capital gains or income returns it appears  that you (a) get a PPSN for the estate using form TR1; (b) get an electronic certificate for that PPSN; (c) electronically submit form 1 using the estate's PPSN. Form 1 contains  self-assessments for both income and capital gains. Revenue will then send you payslips to pay any tax owing.


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## cgainstax (15 Nov 2018)

In a similar position to others above. Acting as executor and house now sold & cgt due in Dec. General advice from revenue was unless I had already reg the estate for PPS & there was discouragement to do so at this point, the best option was for the beneficiaries(3) to pay a third of CGT due. The main advantage to each paying their portion is they can claim their individual allowances so you are paying less cgt than if registering for an estate which I presume can only use one allowance. Individuals/beneficiaries may have accumulated other cgt allowances which the executor may not be aware of so your approach should be flexible imo.


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## torblednam (15 Nov 2018)

cgainstax said:


> In a similar position to others above. Acting as executor and house now sold & cgt due in Dec. *General advice from revenue was unless I had already reg the estate for PPS & there was discouragement to do so at this point, the best option was for the beneficiaries(3) to pay a third of CGT due.* The main advantage to each paying their portion is they can claim their individual allowances so you are paying less cgt than if registering for an estate which I presume can only use one allowance. Individuals/beneficiaries may have accumulated other cgt allowances which the executor may not be aware of so your approach should be flexible imo.



Sorry, are you saying someone in Revenue advised you to do what I've put in bold?!


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## ricta (3 Nov 2020)

I had forgotten about this post. What worked seamlessly for me in the end was ....

20/9/2017: requested a Tax Registration Number for CGT for the Estate under Administration of the late Mrs X.

9/10/2017: received Tax Registration Number as requested.

15/5/2018:  house disposed of.

2/7/2018: CGT_A Payslip sent with cheque. Name on the Payslip: Estate of Mrs X, deceased. PPSN of the Estate, and address as c/o my address, (Executor)

27/2/2019: Form CG1 (Capital Gains Tax Return and Self-Assessment 2018) became availabe, completed and sent to Revenue. (Not CGT1, not Form1)


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## Brendan Burgess (3 Nov 2020)

Ricta

That is great. Thanks for the update.

It took me a long time to sort out with the CGT appearing under my pps number
Brendan


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