# 2 Storey Extension to a Terraced house



## Captain Z

Hi All,
We want to add a 2 storey extension to a terraced house. I know 40 sq meters can be added over 2 floors without planning permisson. The garden is also very long, so we will not have any issues with the 25% rule. I have a few queries;

- Has anyone done this before, and were there any problems with the neighbours? (Our neighbours are friends and we will speak with them first.)
- Are there any contractors that would do the full work including planning and design that you could recommend?
- Any ideas on cost - the last threads on this are a few years old, and I expect pricies have decreased significantly.

Thanks


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## majee

the one thing I would say to you is if you do a 2 storey extension you hall will become a dark pit! we live in a 3 storey house and we looked into this. we went with a single storey extension in the end. you will have to borrow light as much as possible for the hall if you go with a 2 storey extension. you may be able to do this easily - but it's something to consider anyway. 
staying onside with the neighbours will be important too, but it sounds like you're on great terms there. we have neighbours who went the other way - gave no info to the neighbours and kept them in the dark about the whole thing. there was an objection and although they still speak, they are not on what you might call 'good terms'.
 good luck with the work.

majee


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## Captain Z

Thanks for the info, we are okay on the hall front, as there is not one as such, just a 3ft by 3ft lobby before you go up the stairs. We also have natural lighting fed from the attic via tubing into the rooms where there is no light.

Who did your single story extension and were you happy with it?

Thanks


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## Peter Sweeny

Check out both your neighbouring houses and similar type houses who have built a two storey extension along the lines you are contemplating. You should be able to see the plans submitted for some of these houses as plenty of two storey extensions may have required planning permission. This will give you a few ideas about lay-out, etc.


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## onq

Captain Z said:


> Hi All,
> We want to add a 2 storey extension to a terraced house. I know 40 sq meters can be added over 2 floors without planning permisson. The garden is also very long, so we will not have any issues with the 25% rule. I have a few queries;
> 
> - Has anyone done this before, and were there any problems with the neighbours? (Our neighbours are friends and we will speak with them first.)
> - Are there any contractors that would do the full work including planning and design that you could recommend?
> - Any ideas on cost - the last threads on this are a few years old, and I expect pricies have decreased significantly.
> 
> Thanks



Captain Z,

There are huge pitfalls for the unwary such as


You cannot extended a protected structure without permission.
Work to building in an ACA or other zoning may be restricted.
40 sq.m. only applies if the house was not extended previously.
Planning law does not supersede the law of the land so you cannot - as of right - build over
- public sewers
- rights of way
- other people's properly line​
Precedent may guide you as suggest by Peter Sweeney's post, but it is not written in stone.
Contractors do not usually supply design services and majee's post highlights just one of the pitfalls.
You have to seek tenders for work like this to get realistic prices.

My best advice is - engage an architect and take good advice before you do anything.

Hope this helps.

ONQ.


[broken link removed]

           All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be           relied                      upon                                                                                                                 as   a                 defence       or                support    -            in               and       of                    itself     -                                should                           legal                              action                  be                              taken.
           Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to                    advise        in                                                                                                                        Real          Life          with               rights      to                      inspect             and                   issue                             reports             on                the                                           matters            at                             hand.


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## Captain Z

Thank you for the responses. We have spoken with a planning expert amd will be engaging an architech. Asap.

Thanks
Keith a.k.a captain z


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## colorc

+1 on appointing an architect. He/She will also be able to advise you on whether or not planning is required. Once the designs are complete you should engage a quantity surveyor or check out selfbuildrates.ie to get an independant cost of your building works before appointing a contractor/individual tradesmen. An independant cost prior to tender puts you in prime position to neqotiate with your preferred contractor/tradesmen.

Best of luck with your extension!


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## Captain Z

*Building Contractors*

Hi Folks,
Thanks to all who responded last time.

We have now started the planning permission process and have finalised our architectural drawings. 

Our next step is to appoint a general contractor to complete the works. We will be getting around 3 or 4 quotes. Has anyone any recommendations for a contractor for a residential extension. Somebody who offers good value and excellent service and is reliable.

Look forward to your comments

Keith

p.s. ONQ, please only respond if you can recommend a contractor, thanks.


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## OneAndOnly

Keith - I had a super insulated 2 story side and huge back extension completed in April this year - Dublin.  I've PM'd you the builders details.  Would highly recommend them. 

My architect produced a 40 odd page spec, plus working drawings  and I got 9 quotes based on this.  Think you should get at least 5. The highest quote I got was more than double the lowest.... we ended up exactly in the middle!

Each quote had 10-15 headings (Groundworks, Wall finishes, etc) the difference in prices was (and still is) shocking


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## Leo

OneAndOnly said:


> I've PM'd you the builders details. Would highly recommend them.


 
Please post publicly so that others may benefit.


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## newirishman

Hi folks,
I am looking do the same with a mid-terraced house (2 storey extension). We are quite clear how and what, so don't need to much design input - however, I would like to get an architect / engineer to draw the detailed plans and spec and supervise the builder.
Anyone has a ball-park how much it costs to get an architect in, work on the what, and get the drawings and spec done so that it can be handed over to a builder? 
Also, can anyone recommend an architect who is familiar with more modern building materials or techniques? (so beyond your standard brick wall with a roof).
Ideally, I would like to get plans and spec done first so that I can then take my time to find the right builder and start at on my own time.

Thanks 
newirishman


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## onq

Captain Z said:


> p.s. ONQ, please only respond if you can recommend a contractor, thanks.



I can offer the name of a contractor - where are you building, because none of the contractors I know will travel far on the tight prices they are getting these days.

BTW, if you're relying in exempted development for some or all of the works be careful about your distances to boundaries and your area on first floor.
Your next step should be to get permission and they complete the works if your applying for permission.
If you're applying for retention you have to complete the works and then seek retention.
There is no middle ground unfortunately.

ONQ.


[broken link removed]

           All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be            relied                      upon                                                                                                                   as   a                 defence       or                 support    -            in               and       of                     itself     -                                should                            legal                              action                  be                               taken.
           Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to                     advise        in                                                                                                                          Real          Life          with               rights       to                      inspect             and                   issue                              reports             on                the                                            matters            at                              hand.


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## onq

OneAndOnly said:


> Keith - I had a super insulated 2 story side and huge back extension completed in April this year - Dublin.  I've PM'd you the builders details.  Would highly recommend them.
> 
> My architect produced a 40 odd page spec, plus working drawings  and I got 9 quotes based on this.  Think you should get at least 5. The highest quote I got was more than double the lowest.... we ended up exactly in the middle!
> 
> Each quote had 10-15 headings (Groundworks, Wall finishes, etc) the difference in prices was (and still is) shocking



Involving NINE firms in this exercise seems excessive.
That work will have to be paid for and eight have no return on this.

Six is the normal maximum, even on large projects, with three the minimum.
Still, you didn't break their arms to come back and I'm sure they were happy to quote you.

ONQ.


[broken link removed]

           All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be            relied                      upon                                                                                                                   as   a                 defence       or                 support    -            in               and       of                     itself     -                                should                            legal                              action                  be                               taken.
           Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to                     advise        in                                                                                                                          Real          Life          with               rights       to                      inspect             and                   issue                              reports             on                the                                            matters            at                              hand.


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## Captain Z

Hi NewIrishMan,

We used an architect and I have sent on his details to you, but the prices were very reasonable as we did not include any builders fee negotiations in his fee. He has flat rates depending the scale of the build/drawings. He has also dealt with the planners on our behalf - pre approval and full planning permission.

We found him very good, and are still working with him to finalise the build.

Keith


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## Captain Z

Hi ONQ,
Building in North Dublin.
Thanks
Keith


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## Baggers

Peter Sweeny said:


> Check out both your neighbouring houses and similar type houses who have built a two storey extension along the lines you are contemplating. You should be able to see the plans submitted for some of these houses as plenty of two storey extensions may have required planning permission. This will give you a few ideas about lay-out, etc.



just a note about checking the neighbouring houses, most of the websites of councils have very good facilities to search for planning applications by name and/or address. The search will usually bring back all documents submitted in the planning application including architects plans and decisions made. It's a great resource to see what has been approved or not in your locality.


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## onq

Keith,

Here is the name of a contractor who confirmed he would be interested in pricing for the work.
This is not a formal recommendation and may not be construed or represented as such.
I have not worked with this firm directly - they have worked with a colleague of mine.

O'Sullivan Construction,
Aras Rosoige, Ballydowd,
Lucan, County Dublin.
M 0872395904

---------------

Best of luck with it.

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

           All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be             relied                      upon                                                                                                                     as   a                 defence       or                  support    -            in               and       of                      itself     -                                should                             legal                              action                  be                                taken.
           Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to                      advise        in                                                                                                                            Real          Life          with               rights        to                      inspect             and                    issue                              reports             on                 the                                            matters            at                               hand.


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## 4th estate

Well I always thought that 2 storey extensions required planning permission no matter the size.

Am I wrong about that?

So a two story provided the floor area does not exceed 40sqm is exempt?

Can anyone tell me what the 40 sqm refers to? Is it the footprint? Thanks


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## onq

4th estate said:


> Well I always thought that 2 storey extensions required planning permission no matter the size.
> 
> Am I wrong about that?
> 
> So a two story provided the floor area does not exceed 40sqm is exempt?
> 
> Can anyone tell me what the 40 sqm refers to? Is it the footprint? Thanks



The answers, in order of questioning, are - 

1. Yes, you are incorrect on this point. Certain two-storey extensions may avail of the Exempted Development Schedule. However there are several onerous restrictions on location and windows which can make it almost impossible to build one, depending on how they're interpreted, specifically the 2M and 11M required distances noted in the extract below.

2. Not necessarily, there are qualifications as noted above and there are area limits for the first floor component and they differ for detached and semi-detached/terraced.

3. No its not the footprint. The footprint includes the walls. The 40 sq.m. is the total nett additional _internal_ floor area over the original permitted floor area i.e. _excluding_ the walls. it includes any previous extensions, permitted or exempted.

I append an extract from the Planning and Development Regulations 2001 below.

(these have been amended since, but I understand this part is still current)

If you have any further queries, post them here and I or other frequent posters will try to answer them.

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

           All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be              relied                      upon                                                                                                                       as   a                 defence       or                   support    -            in               and       of                       itself     -                                should                              legal                              action                   be                                taken.
           Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to                       advise        in                                                                                                                              Real          Life          with               rights         to                      inspect             and                     issue                              reports             on                  the                                            matters            at                                hand.         

===============<>===============​ 

From the Planning and Development Regulations 2001

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2001/en/si/0600.html



SCHEDULE 2​ _Article 6_​ Part 1​ _Exempted Development — General_

Column 1
​​Description of Development​ ​ _Development within the curtilage of a house_

    CLASS 1

    The extension of a house, by the construction or erection of an  extension (including a conservatory) to the rear of the house or by the  conversion for use as part of the house of any garage, store, shed or  other similar structure attached to the rear or to the side of the  house.


Column 2

Conditions and Limitations

     1. (a) Where the house has not been extended previously, the floor area of any such extension shall not exceed 40 square metres.

   (b) Subject to paragraph (a), where the house is terraced or  semi-detached, the floor area of any extension above ground level shall  not exceed 12 square metres.

   (c) Subject to paragraph (a), where the house is detached, the floor  area of any extension above ground level shall not exceed 20 square  metres. 


     2. (a) Where the house has been extended previously, the floor area of  any such extension, taken together with the floor area of any previous  extension or extensions constructed or erected after 1 October 1964,  including those for which planning permission has been obtained, shall  not exceed 40 square metres.

    (b) Subject to paragraph (a), where the house is terraced or  semi-detached and has been extended previously, the floor area of any  extension above ground level taken together with the floor area of any  previous extension or extensions above ground level constructed or  erected after 1 October 1964, including those for which planning  permission has been obtained, shall not exceed 12 square metres.

   (c) Subject to paragraph (a), where the house is detached and has been  extended previously, the floor area of any extension above ground level,  taken together with the floor area of any previous extension or  extensions above ground level constructed or erected after 1 October  1964, including those for which planning permission has been obtained,  shall not exceed 20 square metres. 


     3. Any above ground floor extension shall be a distance of not less than 2 metres from any party boundary.


     4. (a) Where the rear wall of the house does not include a gable, the  height of the walls of any such extension shall not exceed the height of  the rear wall of the house.

    (b) Where the rear wall of the house includes a gable, the height of the  walls of any such extension shall not exceed the height of the side  walls of the house.

    (c) The height of the highest part of the roof of any such extension  shall not exceed, in the case of a flat roofed extension, the height of  the eaves or parapet, as may be appropriate, or, in any other case,  shall not exceed the height of the highest part of the roof of the  dwelling.


   5. The construction or erection of any such extension to the rear of the  house shall not reduce the area of private open space, reserved  exclusively for the use of the occupants of the house, to the rear of  the house to less than 25 square metres.  


     6. (a) Any window proposed at ground level in any such extension shall not be less than 1 metre from the boundary it faces.

    (b) Any window proposed above ground level in any such extension shall not be less than 11 metres from the boundary it faces.

   (c) Where the house is detached and the floor area of the extension  above ground level exceeds 12 square metres, any window proposed at  above ground level shall not be less than 11 metres from the boundary it  faces. 


     7. The roof of any extension shall not be used as a balcony or roof garden.


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## Captain Z

To clear up any uncertainty on what we are doing, we have pre-planning approval (this meant slight adjustments to original plans) and the full application is with the council at present. It's now a 12 week wait ! We needed this because we are doing doundry to boundry extension on a terraced house.

Thanks to all who provided info/advice.


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## onq

Well done for going down the planning route
However, you will probably find its a 13-14-week wait for your Grant of Permission.

- 8 weeks for the Decision to Grant Permission, assuming is not refused and no further information is requested
- 4 weeks for the Appeal Period to expire following the Decision to Grant Permission
- up to 2 weeks for the issuing of the Grant of Permission.

This latter extra time arises because the board typically won't issue the notice of appeal for a couple of days after the permission issues, to ensure last minute appeals "mislaid" in the systems are found and processed.

If Monday was the last date for appeal confirmation that no appeal was in mightn't issue until the following Wednesday or Thursday.
The local authority might not process that notification or prepare the Grant for Signing by the County Manager until Monday.
Friday might be the next signing day - County Managers are busy people.

So it could run on for a bit, and commencement before the date of Grant of Permission constitutes unauthorized development.
This additional fortnight can really mess up 16-week builds if there is a specific deadline date to be met.
The constricted site means it can be hard to simply fit enough men in to make up time.

You are now forewarned of the delay, but if there were objectors it could still be Appealed.

One other thing - be careful of resting your ambitions on pre-planning agreements.
I developed an excellent result (so I thought) on a site in North Dublin a few years back - real value-added stuff to an existing dwelling.
Everything was signed sealed and delivered and we went for planning to be hit with a two page Further Information Request.
Everything from confirmation of legal boundaries to rights of access to proving pre-existing Pre-1963 Apartment use.

"Unbelievable!" I thought, and rang the planner in high dudgeon.
I was well aware that pre-planning was not a guarantee of permission.
However his was such a sea change that I felt badly mauled by the area planner.
Not a bit of it - my contact had taken a year's sabbatical and a new planner was installed.
He had decided to rigorously examine every planning application - new broom sweeping the place clean.

I had already done our homework on most of the items and was able to answer the Further Information Request, but it was a significant delay.

Regardless of the foregoing, best of luck with it.

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

           All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be                relied                      upon                                                                                                                           as   a                 defence       or                     support    -            in               and       of                         itself     -                                should                                legal                              action                     be                                taken.
           Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to                         advise        in                                                                                                                                  Real          Life          with                 rights         to                      inspect             and                       issue                              reports             on                    the                                            matters              at                                hand.


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## hastalavista

Captain Z said:


> Hi All,
> We want to add a 2 storey extension to a terraced house. I know 40 sq meters can be added over 2 floors without planning permisson. The garden is also very long, so we will not have any issues with the 25% rule. I have a few queries;
> 
> - Has anyone done this before, and were there any problems with the neighbours? (Our neighbours are friends and we will speak with them first.)
> - Are there any contractors that would do the full work including planning and design that you could recommend?
> - Any ideas on cost - the last threads on this are a few years old, and I expect pricies have decreased significantly.
> 
> Thanks



have you seen this
for terraced or semi-detached houses, the floor area of
any extension above ground level does not exceed 12
square metres, this includes any previous extensions
carried out;
• any extension above ground floor level is at least 2m
from any boundary;
from http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/Planning/FileDownLoad,1586,en.pdf


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## onq

hastalavista said:


> have you seen this
> for terraced or semi-detached houses, the floor area of
> any extension above ground level does not exceed 12
> square metres, this includes any previous extensions
> carried out;
> • any extension above ground floor level is at least 2m
> from any boundary;
> from http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/Planning/FileDownLoad,1586,en.pdf



The text of the governing regulation was given in post #19 above.
Its always good to have a more user-friendly version.

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

           All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be                 relied                      upon                                                                                                                             as   a                 defence       or                      support    -            in               and       of                          itself     -                                should                                 legal                              action                      be                                taken.
           Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to                          advise        in                                                                                                                                    Real          Life          with                  rights         to                      inspect             and                        issue                              reports              on                    the                                             matters              at                                hand.


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## hastalavista

onq said:


> The text of the governing regulation was given in post #19 above.
> Its always good to have a more user-friendly version.
> 
> ONQ.
> 
> [broken link removed]
> 
> All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be                 relied                      upon                                                                                                                             as   a                 defence       or                      support    -            in               and       of                          itself     -                                should                                 legal                              action                      be                                taken.
> Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to                          advise        in                                                                                                                                    Real          Life          with                  rights         to                      inspect             and                        issue                              reports              on                    the                                             matters              at                                hand.



mea cupla, had not read thread but was concerned with his 40 without reference to the 12 for the upper floor coupled with the 2m requirement for the upper floor when he may be building ground on boundary


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## onq

hastalavista,

You're quite correct to draw his attention to this matter.

AAM is a privately funded resource intended to benefit public to which interested parties post for free giving hopefully competent advice.

Being conscientious enough to ensure that a pertinent piece of information is brought to the attention of a poster is good practice 

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

           All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be                  relied                      upon                                                                                                                               as   a                 defence       or                       support    -            in               and       of                           itself     -                                 should                                 legal                               action                      be                                taken.
           Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to                           advise        in                                                                                                                                      Real          Life          with                   rights         to                      inspect             and                         issue                              reports               on                    the                                              matters              at                                hand.


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