# motoring offence: stopped for turning right at a no right turn sign.



## Randy (19 Dec 2007)

Don't know if this is covered elsewhere, but I need some clarification re a recent traffic offence.

 I was stopped for turning right at a no right turn sign. However, when I received the fine and points notice, the offence I'm being done for is for making an illegal left turn.......Whilst I am prepared to accept the fine (begrudgingly) and the point for the offence, I would be happier to get off on the technicality of an incorrect summons and promise not to make the same mistake again. 

Can anyone confirm if I am correct that as the notice has been issued for a different offence that I am now not liable? 


If this is the case how does one go about advising the relevant authorities or do I let it go to court and make a case then?

thanks


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## Mpsox (19 Dec 2007)

*Re: motoring offence*

Why are you prepaired to accept the fine begrudgingly?, you broke the rules of the road and got caught, tough, accept it and move on


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## ashambles (19 Dec 2007)

*Re: motoring offence*

I'm open to correction but I believe there's some process at the court where the garda can correct the offense if needed. By which stage you'll have an annoyed (possibly apoplectic) judge to contend with.  

Anyway so far you've only got the notice which has probably less legal status than the court summons.

If the offense was one of

Failure to comply with mandatory traffic signs at junctions      
Failure to comply with prohibitory traffic signs

then there's even less to be gained with in court - since they're 1 point offences if you lose they get tripled in court - a 2 point offense will normally be "only" doubled to 4.

Leaving aside the correctness of the notice - apparently the most likely reason for dismissal is that the garda doesn't turn up.


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## z103 (19 Dec 2007)

*Re: motoring offence*



> Why are you prepaired to accept the fine begrudgingly?,



Probably because the 'rule' was some contrived nonsense to start with. You should do everything in your power not to pay the fine IMHO.

This idea of doubling points that go to court doesn't sound right to me either. It must surely be against some European law (like VRT).


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## Stifster (19 Dec 2007)

*Re: motoring offence*

I didn't know that single point offences got trebled but it is correct that two becomes four. I see nothing wrong with that, a person is entitled to fight their corner but if the authorities are proved correct there can be an additional sanction for wasting everybody's time.

You are entitklesd to argue the technicality but the judge could well decide to give you the points anyway, it would entail a bit mroe research to give full advice.


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## RainyDay (20 Dec 2007)

*Re: motoring offence*



leghorn said:


> Probably because the 'rule' was some contrived nonsense to start with.


Can I confirm exactly what you mean by this? Are you suggesting that all 'no right turn' and 'no left turn' signs are contrived nonsense?


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## Stifster (20 Dec 2007)

*Re: motoring offence*

I think he's an anarchist...


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## comanche (20 Dec 2007)

*Re: motoring offence*

surely it all depends on what way ya look at it!


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## tinkerbell (21 Dec 2007)

*Re: motoring offence*

You can take the gamble and go before the court admitting you made an illegal turn, be it left or right but if you lose, its very painful    The Guard can simply cancel that notice and issue a fresh one with the left/right turn part correct and then you can pay with your conscience clear that you got penalised correctly


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## Randy (27 Dec 2007)

*Re: motoring offence*



Mpsox said:


> Why are you prepaired to accept the fine begrudgingly?, you broke the rules of the road and got caught, tough, accept it and move on


 

The reason I say begrudgingly, is that I think it unfair that you get penalised twice, if as the Gardai and Politicians keep telling us that motorists are not there to boost the exchequers coffers then why not just impose the penalty points, theres no need to have a fine. You might argue that it will make the offending motorist more vigilant, I disagree, the offender will be more concerned about being hit in the pocket by increased insurance premiums over the long term so will be more careful not to rack up points on their licence. 

With regard to your view that it is 'tough'.I wasn't seeking sympathy as I am aware of how dumb it was that I make the error!  By the way, do you have any penalty points on your licence?


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## RainyDay (27 Dec 2007)

*Re: motoring offence*



Randy said:


> I disagree, the offender will be more concerned about being hit in the pocket by increased insurance premiums over the long term so will be more careful not to rack up points on their licence.


Not much logic here - If financial incentives are effective (as you imply), then surely fines are even more effective and immediate that waiting for possible financial impacts through insurance over the long term?


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## macnas (27 Dec 2007)

*Re: motoring offence*

Hi,
    As I see it  you are not guilty of the charge against you. The case should be dismissed. Consult a good solicitor.


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## Artois (28 Dec 2007)

*Re: motoring offence*

macnas is on the money. Definately engage a good solicitor who may end up retaining a barrister however the net result will be that the matter will be struck out. No penalty points so happy days. 

Good luck in court.


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## LS400 (3 Jan 2008)

*Re: motoring offence*

Dont be so quick to roll over, theres nothing wrong with questioning what you have been charged with, them -their do gooders would do the same. 
If you can get out of it, happy days.. Good luck if fight it.


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## Mpsox (4 Jan 2008)

Randy

I have been driving for 20 years since I was 18, , have a full clean license, no penalty points, never fined or even pulled over. Doesn't mean I drive at 30 miles an hours on the motorway, just means I don't drive like a prat.

As for being fined as well as penalty points, reality is that that is a standard practise for many offences, not just driving offences. Remember as well there are 2 other penalties a judge can impose if they feel the offence is serious enough, namely a straight ban and prison


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## Stifster (4 Jan 2008)

*Re: motoring offence*



Artois said:


> macnas is on the money. Definately engage a good solicitor who may end up retaining a barrister however the net result will be that the matter will be struck out. No penalty points so happy days.
> 
> Good luck in court.


 
Let's say it costs €300-€500 for a solicitor alone, maybe €600-€800 if they want to bring in a barrister (hardly worth it for such a minor offence). If the poster loses he has that cost plus 4 penalty points which may affect his insurance premium.

If he wins, he still has to pay has his legal costs.

If he pays the fine, he gets two points which will have no effect on his premium (to the best of my knowledge no insurers add anything for the first two points), overall cost €80?

Now, which would you choose?


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## MrMan (4 Jan 2008)

> If he pays the fine, he gets two points which will have no effect on his premium (to the best of my knowledge no insurers add anything for the first two points), overall cost €80?
> 
> Now, which would you choose?



Depends on how many points he already has on his licence.




> Not much logic here - If financial incentives are effective (as you imply), then surely fines are even more effective and immediate that waiting for possible financial impacts through insurance over the long term?



I would agree with Randy in the sense that pre points I was caught speeding a couple of times and I didn't mind just stumping up the cash, but when the points came in the fine took a back seat and my worry was collecting points and possibly losing a licence. I do think alot of points people get are purely money spinners rather than for the greater good and safety etc.



> As for being fined as well as penalty points, reality is that that is a standard practise for many offences, not just driving offences. Remember as well there are 2 other penalties a judge can impose if they feel the offence is serious enough, namely a straight ban and prison



I think its safe to say you won't get banned or sent to prison for questioning a summons.



> I have been driving for 20 years since I was 18, , have a full clean license, no penalty points, never fined or even pulled over. Doesn't mean I drive at 30 miles an hours on the motorway, just means I don't drive like a prat.



Over confident drivers can sometimes be the worst.


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## werner (4 Jan 2008)

*Re: motoring offence*



RainyDay said:


> Can I confirm exactly what you mean by this? Are you suggesting that all 'no right turn' and 'no left turn' signs are contrived nonsense?


 
Yes many are.

I can site numerous areas that traffic patterns have been changed by the local councils, with Dublin City Council being far the worst and the "traffic engineers" have failed to update corresponding "no right/left turns" on relevant streets.

The only time these have come to notice is usually when a serious accident ("engineered" accident in my opinion due to poor planning) and then such signs are updated.


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## RainyDay (4 Jan 2008)

werner said:


> Yes many are.
> 
> I can site numerous areas that traffic patterns have been changed by the local councils, with Dublin City Council being far the worst and the "traffic engineers" have failed to update corresponding "no right/left turns" on relevant streets.


Would you care to share some examples of this around Dublin?


MrMan said:


> I would agree with Randy in the sense that pre points I was caught speeding a couple of times and I didn't mind just stumping up the cash, but when the points came in the fine took a back seat and my worry was collecting points and possibly losing a licence.


That's not what Randy said. He said that his main incentive was concern around increased insurance costs arising from penalty points, not loss of licence.


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## Guest127 (4 Jan 2008)

why not take a photo of the area concerned. go to court. and when charged ask where does it say no left turn? produce the photo. case dismissed. one angry and I imagine vendictive plod to deal with in future though.
as for no left turns. sometimes these beat the hell out of me . theres a road in drumcondra facing the big tree or thereabouts. No left turn onto the drumcondra road. So you are expected to turn right towards the city centre and into traffic, when all you want to do is turn left and scoot out of the city. beats me anyway.


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## A_b (4 Jan 2008)

more often than not the guard won't turn up to court and fine will be scrapped


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## Stifster (4 Jan 2008)

A_b said:


> more often than not the guard won't turn up to court and fine will be scrapped


 
From professional experience while it happens a lot it is still in the minority of cases.


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