# Some posters are condescending



## The_Banker (11 Jul 2011)

_copied from another thread_

But I agree that there is a condecending attitude from some posters and some new posters may not see beyond that and go elsewhere.

In my early days I had one of these posters report me to the mods for some minor infraction and I got a warning. Reminded me of when I was 7 in school and another classmate reported me to the teacher for talking.


----------



## PaddyW (12 Jul 2011)

The_Banker said:


> *But I agree that there is a condecending attitude from some posters and some new posters may not see beyond that and go elsewhere.*


 
Got to agree with that. Extremely condescending at times!


----------



## Time (12 Jul 2011)

It is the high moral horse brigade that is putting off posters.


----------



## TarfHead (12 Jul 2011)

Time said:


> It is the high moral horse brigade that is putting off posters.


 
Someone on their high horse on the high moral ground, perhaps ?

Now, who could that refer to, hmmm ...


----------



## Ceist Beag (12 Jul 2011)

You mean those that tell people what they don't want to hear Time? It's posters like those that make AAM what it is, not those that simply suggest that it's no harm evading paying tax! (Note Time is referring to this thread)
As others have pointed out, this time of year is always quiet on AAM.


----------



## Time (12 Jul 2011)

It is the smug, condescending attitude of those that make such comments as if they never put a foot wrong in their lives at gets my goat.


----------



## Sunny (12 Jul 2011)

Time said:


> It is the smug, condescending attitude of those that make such comments as if they never put a foot wrong in their lives at gets my goat.


 
I am willing to bet that the vast majority have not been involved in tax evasion.


----------



## Betsy Og (12 Jul 2011)

It has always struck me that the zeal exhibited here in relation to taxation matters is remarkable. I hope ye are not joining up as Revenue auditors, they first few weeks would be spent pointing out that Martin Cahill type tactics are not appropriate .... to disappointed faces in the audience 

It reminds me a story I heard last week, first hand (the guy was there himself), that a tax case was up, was the 3rd and final on that day, the first involved a guy who beat his girlfriend such that she lost her baby, the 2nd was a paedophile case, but the judge saved his ire for the tax case where he went to town on the errant taxpayer.

So beware...............


----------



## Staples (12 Jul 2011)

Time said:


> It is the smug, condescending attitude of those that make such comments as if they never put a foot wrong in their lives at gets my goat.


 
I'd agree that the default position of many contributors is to condescend but this site is imperfect like any other.   You take the best and you live with the rest.

Like any other forum, this one has its own culture and is moderated to ensure that the required standard is maintained.  Start a thread about, say, casual sex and see how long it lasts.

At the risk of offending (steady....), this site is geared towards the middle class twee (or twee tolerant).  You may not like everything about it but at least it doesn't seek to accomodate the lowest common denominator.


----------



## Betsy Og (13 Jul 2011)

Staples said:


> I'd agree that the default position of many contributors is to condescend.
> 
> You may not like everything about it but at least it doesn't seek to accomodate the lowest common denominator.


 
I hate arrogance, so if some divil asks a stupid question, or throws out a view you think is ill considered, wouldnt it be civil to just put them on the right path without stomping on them.

I'm delighted that simplistic tabloid sensationalism (Lowest C__ D__) gets tested here, everyone gets a better understanding when opposing views tease out the others position.

My only (minor) gripes are that there are some 'waiting to be offended' people, and the mods tend to be a bit school teacherish in such situation (the right to reply/defend is frowned upon) - so one rather finds one watching oneself lest, for example, the vernacular offends the hyper sensibilities of some.


----------



## Sunny (13 Jul 2011)

Betsy Og said:


> I hate arrogance, so if some divil asks a stupid question, or throws out a view you think is ill considered, wouldnt it be civil to just put them on the right path without stomping on them.
> 
> I'm delighted that simplistic tabloid sensationalism (Lowest C__ D__) gets tested here, everyone gets a better understanding when opposing views tease out the others position.
> 
> My only (minor) gripes are that there are some 'waiting to be offended' people, and the mods tend to be a bit school teacherish in such situation (the right to reply/defend is frowned upon) - so one rather finds one watching oneself lest, for example, the vernacular offends the hyper sensibilities of some.


 
It is very rarely I see a poster get condescending when someone asks a question. I think people get aggitated at some of the advice given rather than the actual question itself.


----------



## MrMan (13 Jul 2011)

I think it is the advice along the lines of 'you should/n't have done ' rather than offer what can I do now that irks people, but it is natural for people to point out the obvious.
When it boils down to it we shouldn't be offended because generally how you write isn't how you converse and therefore not a true representation of self.


----------



## DB74 (13 Jul 2011)

Most people get annoyed when someone starts a thread asking "will I get away with it if ..."

and rightly so


----------



## Staples (13 Jul 2011)

DB74 said:


> Most people get annoyed when someone starts a thread asking "will I get away with it if ..."
> 
> and rightly so


 
Well, you have a right to BE annoyed and to express disagreement.  But the expression of annoyance at someone else's standards assumes a moral authority that you don't necessarily have.


----------



## Sunny (13 Jul 2011)

Staples said:


> Well, you have a right to BE annoyed and to express disagreement. But the expression of annoyance at someone else's standards assumes a moral authority that you don't necessarily have.


 
So someone can ask 'Can I get away with this tax evasion' and no-one is allowed to express their feelings at such an attitude?


----------



## DB74 (13 Jul 2011)

Staples said:


> But the expression of annoyance at someone else's standards assumes a moral authority that you don't necessarily have.



So we have no right to express our annoyance at someone who wants to know if they will get away with breaking the law?


----------



## Latrade (13 Jul 2011)

You're all right. The problem with this forum is exactly the same as the problem with every other internet forum: sometimes people are rude and sometimes people want an answer but don't like the answer they get. 

Now if you all would just agree with me more often this would be a much happier place.


----------



## Staples (13 Jul 2011)

DB74 said:


> So we have no right to express our annoyance at someone who wants to know if they will get away with breaking the law?


 
How often does that really happen anyway?

But, in answer to your question, yes of course you do. But then equally you would have to accept other people's right to regard you as a condescending self-righteous prude who either doesn't a foot wrong or doesn't see when he does. (I don't mean you personally by the way.)

And by the way, the law is very often an ass. Just because someone might seek to circumvent it doesn't necessarily mean they're crooked or out to defraud.

Although things are undoubtedly simpler in the black or white world.


----------



## DB74 (13 Jul 2011)

No-one thinks the world is black and/or white

I try reserve my condescending self-righteous prudishness for those who are obviously out to defraud the system

The remainder I refuse to dignify with a response!


----------



## Brendan Burgess (19 Jul 2011)

Folks

I have moved these posts here for a serious discussion of this issue to see if we need to take any action on it.  (Going through that "Why is askaboutmoney so quiet" thread, I had to sift through a lot of pointless comments, to try to get at the serious criticisms. So please keep this thread on topic and serious.)

I am not clear about what is meant by "condescending" in this context? 

Are people being condescending towards new posters in ways other than "you shouldn't be evading tax" or "you deserved to get penalty points for speeding"? 

We certainly won't be bringing in a Posting Guideline along the lines of "Do not express a view on the morality of tax evasion or otherwise breaking the law". 

But I would hope that people are not condescending towards other posters on general questions. 

This is the most relevant Posting Guideline



> *10  Do not abuse other posters    	*
> Controversy and argument are welcome. But please keep  your comments civil. Attack an opinion by all means, but please don't  attack the person expressing the opinion.Posts or threads which use  language designed to be deliberately offensive or just to stir up  trouble will be deleted.



Should we frame this more positively? 

*Please show respect and good manners towards other posters
*Please avoid abuse, condescenscion, rudeness


----------



## DB74 (19 Jul 2011)

Well Brendan, one thing I have noticed (sometimes, not all the time) is if someone starts a thread which happens to be in the wrong forum, a mod might close the thread with a 2 word response - "wrong forum" and that's it. There's no "maybe try the XYZ section" or whatever, the thread is just closed. I'm sure this is very offputting to both that person and potential others. Some of the queries are genuine questions which have just been posted in the wrong section, some of which could overlap.


----------



## Brendan Burgess (19 Jul 2011)

I have dealt with that in this post


----------



## Betsy Og (19 Jul 2011)

Perhaps it would be fair to take account of "track record" as regards moderation? 

If someone posts a lot, is generally not a problem, and occasionally posts something that someone views as off colour, then maybe it would be reasonable to remove the post and let them know to "keep it between the ditches", without going nuclear, taking into account that due to their track record they probably werent intentionally being offensive. I suppose its the online forum equivalent of a character witness, but you dont have to take someones word for it, by their posts they shall be judged.

Even penalty points expire after a while - probably in recognition that if someone is constantly driving they'll pick up an odd infraction without necessarily being a threat on the roads.

On the other hand if someone arrives, is a constant bother, then maybe a sterner tone is needed.


----------



## JP1234 (19 Jul 2011)

DB74 said:


> Well Brendan, one thing I have noticed (sometimes, not all the time) is if someone starts a thread which happens to be in the wrong forum, a mod might close the thread with a 2 word response - "wrong forum" and that's it. There's no "maybe try the XYZ section" or whatever, the thread is just closed. I'm sure this is very offputting to both that person and potential others. Some of the queries are genuine questions which have just been posted in the wrong section, some of which could overlap.



I sort of agree with this. The forums that spring to mind are the Unemployment and Redundancy / Welfare and Benefits. I can see why some people may be unsure which to post in between those and maybe  it seems a little harsh to simply close them.

However, when people just post in the first forum they see without even scrollling down the board ( such as yesterday, there was a post in _I think _the Admin forum about a pension) then I think it is perfectly correct to simply close the thread.


----------



## Brendan Burgess (19 Jul 2011)

JP

Did you read my reply? I have dealt with that in the other thread. 

I had not realised that closing threads in the wrong forum is an example of condescension.  

Brendan


----------



## Brendan Burgess (19 Jul 2011)

Betsy Og said:


> Perhaps it would be fair to take account of "track record" as regards moderation?
> 
> If someone posts a lot, is generally not a problem, and occasionally posts something that someone views as off colour, then maybe it would be reasonable to remove the post and let them know to "keep it between the ditches", without going nuclear, taking into account that due to their track record they probably werent intentionally being offensive. I suppose its the online forum equivalent of a character witness, but you dont have to take someones word for it, by their posts they shall be judged.
> 
> ...



You are losing me here. Has this something to do with being condescending? 

The discussion so far has been that telling people that they should obey the law is condescending. 

Are people saying that the moderators are condescending because we ask people to adhere to the posting guidelines?


----------



## Latrade (19 Jul 2011)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Should we frame this more positively?
> 
> *Please show respect and good manners towards other posters*
> Please avoid abuse, condescenscion, rudeness


 
I don't think we need to go that far. There are some who are quick to moralise, then there are the posters themselves who take offence too quickly because they don't get the answer they want. 

In some case the moral superiority is unjustified where a poster has fully admitted wrongdoing and is just looking for advice as to what to expect, but I would say that's actually the minority. 

Having something so specific in T&Cs is open to abuse. I'd say most accusations of rudeness are related to misinterpretations of the question and/or response. 

Most posts and responses are fine and helpful. I don't see any need for navel gazing just because things are a bit quiet. 

I'd prefer it if the Posting Guide read:

*"This is the internet, sometimes people disagree, sometimes you will be right, sometimes you will be wrong*
Please avoid hypersensitivity and if offended by a dissenting voice take time out to weigh up if it's really worth burning calories over before firing off a response or complaint."


----------



## JP1234 (19 Jul 2011)

Brendan Burgess said:


> JP
> 
> Did you read my reply? I have dealt with that in the other thread.
> 
> ...



Yes. I was only trying to make a point that there may be times when people genuinely are unsure which is the correct forum to post in, particularly with something like unemployment/welfare which are so interlinked.

For the record I don't think it is condescending to close threads that are clearly in the wrong place.


----------



## Betsy Og (19 Jul 2011)

Brendan Burgess said:


> You are losing me here. Has this something to do with being condescending?


 
I thought you were still looking for serious comment on improving the site. If you are strictly limiting the discussion to condenscending attitudes, I looked up, for myself, the definition (per Oxford Online):  

Condescending: having or showing an attitude of patronizing superiority

& as it was used in the defintion above,  patronizing: treat with an apparent kindness which betrays a feeling of superiority

So superiority is the common theme. Cant say I've suffered it here myself, but obviously people feel that on occasion those asking an ill-informed question or making an ill-informed comment get made to feel inferior by the superior gurus that inhabit these regions.


----------



## Brendan Burgess (19 Jul 2011)

Hi Betsy



> I thought you were still looking for serious comment on improving the  site. If you are strictly limiting the discussion to condenscending  attitudes,



I deliberately moved the bits about "condescending" to this thread to discuss them here. So no, I don't want this thread taken off topic with other suggestions. You are free to make them in the Suggestions forum. 

Brendan


----------



## Sunny (19 Jul 2011)

Does anyone have examples of threads where people feel that some posters are being condescending to genuine questions? 

Compared to Boards and Politics, this site is very polite.

Now, be good little people and stop complaining. You don't understand what you are talking about....


----------



## Purple (19 Jul 2011)

I’ve been slapped down the odd time by moderators (ok, two moderators) and I haven’t always agreed with the reason but I’m very slow to criticise people who give their time for free to keep a site going that I enjoy using and find informative. Then there’s the fact that my ego isn’t fragile enough that I'd take personal umbrage because of a comment on the internet.


----------



## Godfather (19 Jul 2011)

Guys, I got bounced off from other forums for much less... I promise  I think this one of the most forgiving...


----------



## Mpsox (19 Jul 2011)

Betsy Og said:


> Condescending: having or showing an attitude of patronizing superiority
> 
> .


 
Does this mean all us Corkonions are condescending, given that we know for a fact that we come from the greatest place on planet earth? 

Seriously, I do sometimes read the responses to some posts and squirm. I can't recall the exact posts but I do recall people in effect being told to "go and google it". Likewise I've seen posts, in particuler those relating to employment rights, where people are in effect told to sod off because they have a job and shouldn't be complaining.


----------



## Sunny (19 Jul 2011)

Mpsox said:


> Does this mean all us Corkonions are condescending, given that we know for a fact that we come from the greatest place on planet earth? .


 
No, it just means you are langers!



Mpsox said:


> Seriously, I do sometimes read the responses to some posts and squirm. I can't recall the exact posts but I do recall people in effect being told to "go and google it". Likewise I've seen posts, in particuler those relating to employment rights, where people are in effect told to sod off because they have a job and shouldn't be complaining.


 
To be fair, I remember somebody coming on who was doing a Thesis in college asking where they should go to find information on a topic. Like seriously, you are a third level student and you are asking on how to research something that you are doing a Thesis on. I may have said "go and google it" on that occasion. I apologise for that and for any offence caused.


----------



## Purple (19 Jul 2011)

Sunny said:


> I remember somebody coming on who was doing a Thesis in college asking where they should go to find information on a topic. Like seriously, you are a third level student and you are asking on how to research something that you are doing a Thesis on. I may have said "go and google it" on that occasion. I apologise for that and for any offence caused.



I admire your restraint.


----------



## Betsy Og (19 Jul 2011)

Mpsox said:


> Does this mean all us Corkonions are condescending, given that we know for a fact that we come from the greatest place on planet earth? .


 
Sorry if this might bring it off topic but, Chairman, on a point of information it is clear that Mpsox needs to read the following

delusion :an idiosyncratic belief or impression maintained despite being contradicted by reality or rational argument, typically as a symptom of mental disorder


----------



## micmclo (19 Jul 2011)

Fair play to the mods for their work and managing the different areas, they are voluneers after all
Unless Brendan is paying them and in that case, are ya hiring??

The most condescending poster I've seen on this site was a mod though I don't think he's even around anymore.
Questions answered with a bad joke or a sneering attitude. I'm glad he's gone realy and I recognize he contributed a lot more to this site then I ever did



Mpsox said:


> Does this mean all us Corkonions are condescending, given that we know for a fact that we come from the greatest place on planet earth?



Corkonians try to claim superiority in everything
They even stole the title of Jackeens of Ireland from the Dubs


----------



## Staples (19 Jul 2011)

micmclo said:


> I'm glad he's gone realy and I recognize he contributed a lot more to this site then I ever did


 
Mostly in the form of google search results and the aformentioned sneers.


----------



## AgathaC (19 Jul 2011)

Personally, I have always received helpful and polite responses, and indeed have learned a lot since joining AAM. Some posters such as the late Welfarite have made a huge contribution to making the site what it is. I have noticed posters especially on the 'Money Makeover' section put a lot of time and effort into helping others. I have also noticed where people are saying that they are upset/ at the end of their tether, there is always someone with a kind word to say, as well as practical advice. I think the moderation (which must be a thankless task) is very good on this website.


----------



## horusd (19 Jul 2011)

Mpsox said:


> Does this mean all us *Corkonions* are condescending, given that *we know for a fact that we come from the greatest place on planet earth*?
> 
> ....


 

 Cork "onions"? Freudian slip or wha! And only the best place on  planet earth? You've set your sights a bit low for most of my Cork mates!


----------



## Brighid (19 Jul 2011)

I have to say that I found Brendans attidude soooo condescending so much so that I rarely bother posting any more e.g.
 Minor breaches of Posting Guidelines
This is very bad manners and is the equivalent of skipping the queue.

I have deleted the thread.

Do not ask the questionon askaboutmoney again
-------

All I did was ask the question in total innocence  a second time. Brendan that is condescension  and unacceptable behaviour as far as I am concerned, I am not surprised that people dont bother anymore. Who are  you to judge my manners? You get my point?


----------



## Staples (19 Jul 2011)

Yeah. Being told you're in breach of the guidelines (and why) is reasonable enough.

Being given a dressing down on your personal standards by reference to someone else's subjective criteria is not.


----------



## Brighid (19 Jul 2011)

Presicley, Staples.


----------



## Brendan Burgess (19 Jul 2011)

The Posting Guideline is very very clear: 



> 9   Do not bump posts.   Do not duplicate posts.
> If your query has not received  any replies please don't duplicate it or reply to it simply to bump it  up to the top of the list.  Bumped threads will be deleted.   Do not post a reply to surreptitiously bump it.  If you use a meaningful title in the first place, then your query should  be answered.


Bumping posts is like skipping the queue. I consider that to be rude. 

Fine, I could just delete the post and tell the poster not to post again. But they might not understand why. 

Is "rude" the wrong word? maybe if I say it's against tehe posting guidelines and it's bad netiquette. 

Here is the post you refer to. It was a straightforward bumping of the post. 



> Frequent Poster
> Posts: 122
> 
> 
> ...



Brendan


----------



## Brighid (19 Jul 2011)

Obviously Brendan, you  missed the point then and now, have a look at Staples reply.


----------



## Ceist Beag (20 Jul 2011)

Brighid maybe you have missed the point here. See Latrade's post #27 - I think you are taking things a little bit too personally if you are offended by Brendan's reply. You are obviously a regular visitor to the site so should know the posting guidelines by now. I think Latrade's advice is sound.


----------



## horusd (20 Jul 2011)

I know I'm going to sound like a total lick, but I find the moderation very good. Once ye know the rules (and they are kinda just commonsense) it's easy to avoid breaching them. I got ticked-off once or twice, but I understood why. 

As Purple said, if ye take offence fairly easily on an internet site( as I think Brighid has), then your setting yourselve up to be offended. 

I also don't like attacks on named mods past or present, I don't think that's very fair. Mod's are probably restricted in what they can say, they do a sometimes thankless job and a bit of appreciation wouldn't go amiss. Because of their efforts, AAM is easy to use and follow, posts generally make sense and are inoffensive, titles relevant etc. I don't want to see posts bumped up, and I don't want to see silly titles like "help" or whatever.


----------



## Marion (20 Jul 2011)

micmclo said:


> Fair play to the mods for their work and managing the different areas, they are voluneers after all
> Unless Brendan is paying them and in that case, are ya hiring?/



Just to confirm that the mods and admins receive no payment in the same way that contributors don't receive money for their informative, helpful and indeed funny and amusing posts that help to complete AAM.

But all donations gratefully accepted for running the site.

Just click on the donate button below.

Marion


----------



## Brendan Burgess (20 Jul 2011)

The Posting Guidelines are there for everyone's benefit - the poster and potential readers. 

The "infraction" system is to remind people of the the rules. 

The vast majority of infractions are straightforward - "don't use bad language" "don't bump posts - it's rude" -" don't take threads off topic" . They don't incur penalty points and they are not a problem unless they are repeated. 

The vast majority of people who get them either don't respond, or simply apologise and post again without the offending comment. 

A small few take personal offence that we have the cheek to impinge on their right to free speech and think that the moderators should enter into long correspondence on whether "****" is really bad language or just a term of endearment from old English. 

I certainly am direct. I don't really think that I should write long essays to people explaining why their posts are in breach of the Posting Guidelines. I prefer to be writing long posts helping people to solve their financial problems. And yes, I resent people who bump posts. It's not a hanging offence. It doesn't incur penalty points even. But the poster is not allowed post on that topic again which seems to be to be appropriate. 
*
I won't use the word "rude" again in such warnings as maybe it's rude to describe someone else as rude. 
*
Has anyone any links to other posts where posters are condescending, other than 
1) please adhere to the posting guidelines
2) Please don't promote illegality on askaboutmoney? 

I would consider a condescending post to be something like the following: 

"that is a really stupid question. Where have you been all these years? Did you not know that you are supposed to pay your mortgage repayments on time?" 

I can't really think of an example of this apart from my frustration yesterday with Joe Ballantine's and Complainer's failure to understand the takeover of Superquinn. 

A few have been reported as "abuse of another poster" and if they amounted to abuse, they were deleted.

We have deleted some "elitist" references to misspellings, but they are very rare.  Some moderators have spent a huge amount of time rewriting long posts where the poster was in a very difficult position, but had written a very garbled message with no punctuation or sentences or order in the post. 

Occasionally when two long-term posters get into a real ding-dong one makes a condescending remark to the other but, in my opinion, such remarks reflect only on the person making the remark.

But anyway, any examples of condescending posts?


----------



## Purple (20 Jul 2011)

Brendan Burgess said:


> But anyway, any examples of condescending posts?



I'll take a look back through the post's I've made and get back to you


----------



## DB74 (20 Jul 2011)

Brendan Burgess said:


> But anyway, any examples of condescending posts?



http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showpost.php?p=1185962&postcount=2


----------



## Staples (20 Jul 2011)

Like most people, I appreciate the work that moderators do and the thankless efforts they make to ensure adherence with the guidelines to the benefit of everyone.  

But what's sauce for the goose.....etc.

If it's okay for a mod to react by losing the rag and accusing someone of bad manners then surely it's okay for that person to feel equally annoyed by what they might regard as an unwarranted commentary on their behaviour.  

If that causes the same person to subsequently refrain from visiting AAM, it shouldn't come as a surprise and I wouldn't necessarily agree it's attributable to their own hypersensitivity.


----------



## Purple (20 Jul 2011)

DB74 said:


> http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showpost.php?p=1185962&postcount=2



A reasonable, rational and logical reply from mf1.


----------



## Sue Ellen (20 Jul 2011)

Purple said:


> A reasonable, rational and logical reply from mf1.



That not many solicitors would give free of charge.


----------



## Vanilla (20 Jul 2011)

DB74 said:


> http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showpost.php?p=1185962&postcount=2


 
Genuinely fail to see how this is condescending. It's a bit tongue in cheek, and if you read the history of that particular posters' threads that mf1 was replying to, it is absolutely spot on.

In general, as a long time poster here, I don't find the moderation heavy handed. Direct, sure, but more often witty and interesting.  Also find that those who 'give it' can 'take it' too, as long as the poster doesn't find the need to descend to the lowest common denominator.


----------



## DB74 (20 Jul 2011)

Fair enough. I would consider it condescending but maybe that's just me.


----------



## TarfHead (20 Jul 2011)

ney001 said:


> I like others remember one particular poster who could really get under your skin and he was often incredibly condescending but generally speaking I also got quite a laugh out of most his wise-ass replies.


 
If you're referring to the person I think you are .. +1

Is pointing out someone's spelling or grammar errors condescending ? I'm often tempted to point these out, but suppress my pedantry (usually). My motive is to be helpful, not mocking.


----------



## horusd (20 Jul 2011)

TarfHead said:


> If you're referring to the person I think you are .. +1
> 
> *Is pointing out someone's spelling or grammar errors condescending ? I'm often tempted to point these out, but suppress my pedantry (usually). My motive is to be helpful, not mocking*.


 

Please feel free to point out mine tarfhead. My grammar and spelling can certainly be a bit off...thank god for edit!


----------



## Staples (20 Jul 2011)

TarfHead said:


> Is pointing out someone's spelling or grammar errors condescending ?


 
Do you mean grammatical errors?  (as he runs for the door)


----------



## TarfHead (20 Jul 2011)

Staples said:


> Do you mean grammatical errors?  (as he runs for the door)


 
Ah, now you're just being condescending !


----------



## Purple (20 Jul 2011)

TarfHead said:


> Ah, now you're just being condescending !



You don't mind him, you are a great little speller so you are!


----------



## Brendan Burgess (20 Jul 2011)

Folks

While some of these replies are funny, can you maybe resist the urge to entertain us on this thread.

I am trying to get to grips with the issue that some posters are being condescending. 

So far, the example of me calling people "rude" for bumping posts has been given and I am not going to use that word anymore. 

Only one other example has been given - a post by MF1.  The advice in that post is excellent and the story is appropriate. MF1's style of writing is distinctive and gets the point across in an astonishingly effective way. I am not going to ask MF1 to please refrain from a bit of irony or humour because someone manages to interpret it as condescending. 

Any other examples of condescending posts? If not, I will close the thread.


----------



## Leper (20 Jul 2011)

So what if some Posters are condescending.  These forums are pretty powerful where people can have debates, express opinions, criticize important people, exchange humour etc.

If you cannot deal with a little condescention what are you doing on this forum?  If you post here you have to bear the consequences and condescention from some is just a daily risk.

If you can't bear the heat, keep out of the kitchen.


----------



## ice (20 Jul 2011)

'no one can make you feel inferior without your consent ' eleanor Roosevelt


----------



## Brendan Burgess (21 Jul 2011)

Leper said:


> So what if some Posters are condescending.
> 
> If you cannot deal with a little condescention what are you doing on this forum?
> 
> If you can't bear the heat, keep out of the kitchen.



This is true to some extent if it's a row between Complainer and Purple. They are both well able to ignore it or to respond. It's also true of the likes of politics.ie which is a debating society.

But the purpose of askaboutmoney is to help people with questions on financial and consumer issues. If they are reluctant to post in case they look stupid in public and will be looked down upon by experienced posters, then askaboutmoney is failing. 

I have seen no evidence of this condescension and no one has provided it yet.


----------



## Purple (21 Jul 2011)

Brendan Burgess said:


> This is true to some extent if it's a row between Complainer and Purple.


 I don't know why you thought of us as an example


----------



## ney001 (21 Jul 2011)

Cos yiz are messers! 

Seriously though Brendan, you have answered your own question, there is no proof of condescending attitudes, just some hypersensitivity to certain posts made by the frequent posters or mods.  

Storm in a teacup!


----------



## liaconn (21 Jul 2011)

I don't see a huge amount of condescending behaviour on AAM. It's not something you will ever be able to stamp out entirely on a forum and there will always be the odd rude and condescending poster thinking they're being clever, but they don't usually get much support from other posters.I don't think it's a particular problem on AAM.


----------



## Staples (21 Jul 2011)

Brendan Burgess said:


> But the purpose of askaboutmoney is to help people with questions on financial and consumer issues. If they are reluctant to post in case they look stupid in public and will be looked down upon by experienced posters, then askaboutmoney is failing.
> 
> I have seen no evidence of this condescension and no one has provided it yet.


 
Brendan 

The people you're asking now are those who either don't have a problem with the site or those who are happy enough to live with it despite what they might regard as its imperfections.  

Peoples's reference to condescension (well my own anyway) is based, I believe, on their cumulative experience with the site.  I certainly don't take note of the precise times I felt that posters have been condescending beacuse it doesn't bother me sufficiently.  I can't therefore provide the empirical evidence you now seek but can only point to my own perception based on years of use of the site.  

As I said in an earlier post, someone using the site can choose NOT to use it if they don't like it or can't live with it.  I suspect many people have already done so although, again, I have no evidence to support my contention.

For my own part, I believe the tone and culture of the site is a direct consequence of the modeation style which, presumably, comes from you.  How you choose to moderate the site is your own business and, on balance, I think you and your fellow mods do a very good job in maintaining an excellent service while at the same time maintaining a good level of intelligent debate.

That said, I think the approach of some mods (and, suitably supported, some contributors) can be a bit school-teacherish (perhaps this is a more accurate description than condescending).  It's not WHAT'S said on some occasions, it can be the WAY that it's said.  It's one thing to point out someone's breach of the guidelines and to apply a yellow or red card as appropriate.  You have a largely thankless task for administering the site and where I've been in breach before, I've been genuinely sorry for the additional administrative burden it's placed on you.  

That said, (and as I've said earlier) I don't think it permits you or anyone to make character judgements based on your limited experience with an individual.  If you consider a certain incident to be beneath the standard of behaviour you're prepared to tolerate, that's fine.  Just say that and the person will take the hint by either modifying their behaviour or leaving.  

In my own case, I felt theat your response to one of my posts was a bit OTT.  I was a bit annoyed but not to the point where I consdiered leaving the site.  Others in my situation may have come to another conclusion.


----------



## casiopea (21 Jul 2011)

I have experienced this (condescending) attitude as well. To be very honest.
However it was only from one Mod who for some reason seemed to have taken a dislike to me.
I experienced this in both the money sections and the depths.
Brendan if you want I can PM you more specific details.  However at the end of the day it doesnt keep me awake at night, this person did a lot for AAM (I believe) and while it resulted in me being less active here I dont (nor did I at the time) seek to have the issue addressed.


----------



## demoivre (21 Jul 2011)

If you don't like a particular poster's style use the *Edit Ignore List* in User CP and you won't see their posts.


----------



## Sunny (21 Jul 2011)

demoivre said:


> If you don't like a particular poster's style use the *Edit Ignore List* in User CP and you won't see their posts.


 
I always thought that function was an urban legend.


----------



## DB74 (21 Jul 2011)

Can someone tell me what Sunny said above cos I blocked him long ago!


----------



## Purple (21 Jul 2011)

Sunny said:


> I always thought that function was an urban legend.



Nope, I'm on one posters ignore list.
It may be the only time it's ever been used on AAM


----------



## JP1234 (21 Jul 2011)

demoivre said:


> If you don't like a particular poster's style use the *Edit Ignore List* in User CP and you won't see their posts.



Unless someone quotes them in a post. 

I had someone on an ignore list ( Not you Purple) but he was often quoted in other people's post....thankfully he is now banned!


----------



## Vanilla (21 Jul 2011)

Purple said:


> Nope, I'm on one posters ignore list.
> It may be the only time it's ever been used on AAM


 
How do you know?


----------



## Sunny (21 Jul 2011)

Why would you put someone on an ignore list? Just don't answer the posts you don't want to. I have seen posts from people that I would not agree with on 9 out of 10 subjects that have proved very useful. Genuinely surprised that people would use that function. Having said that, there are about 18 posters who have annoyed me over the past couple of years. Consider yourselves ignored!


----------



## Purple (21 Jul 2011)

Vanilla said:


> How do you know?



He told me in his last communication with me. I still get a little choked up thinking about it...


----------



## AgathaC (21 Jul 2011)

ney001 said:


> Cos yiz are messers!
> 
> Seriously though Brendan, you have answered your own question, there is no proof of condescending attitudes, just some hypersensitivity to certain posts made by the frequent posters or mods.
> 
> Storm in a teacup!


 +1. In summary, AAM is a very helpful well moderated site. Keep up the good work!


----------



## Bronte (22 Jul 2011)

One poster managed to show what they thought was a condescending post and was slapped down. Would anyone else then try and show any posts that are like that I wonder? 

Yes MF1 reply was to the point and he is very witty, this we all know. He is also very knowledgeable. One of the best posters always giving excellent advice. But the point is the person posting the question was a relatively new poster I think. He is probably afraid to post back. 

Personally I get annoyed at some people and hope that my replies are not condescending, probably when I feel the poster is not getting the message. If they are I'd prefer to be told they are.


----------



## JP1234 (22 Jul 2011)

Sunny said:


> Why would you put someone on an ignore list? Just don't answer the posts you don't want to. I have seen posts from people that I would not agree with on 9 out of 10 subjects that have proved very useful. Genuinely surprised that people would use that function. Having said that, there are about 18 posters who have annoyed me over the past couple of years. Consider yourselves ignored!




I can only speak for myself but there was one poster who I found put me in a bad mood. Every one of his posts went along the same route, he was nasty and the fact he is now banned is a relief.

Only once have I been "offended" by a response to a question I made but it was all sorted out amicably via the PM function.


----------



## Shawady (22 Jul 2011)

Bronte said:


> Would anyone else then try and show any posts that are like that I wonder?


 
I don't know if this counts as a condescending post or not, but when I first start using AAM I posted in the wrong forum and got told off by the mods. I was surprised by the tone of the e-mail.
I had asked a question about the Lisbon treaty in the Miscelaneous Non-Financial Questions forum. I was told this was the wrong forum as it should have been posted in LOS so I replied and apologised. Here is my reply.

_"I was unsure whether it should be posted in LOS or not, but as I have not reached 50 posts yet, I could not post it in LOS.
Apologies if this caused confusion."_

And here was the response. 

_"There should be no confusion

You are not a Frequent Poster, so don't let off steam in any forum"
_

 
As I was new to the website I thought it could have been put better.


----------



## Brendan Burgess (22 Jul 2011)

Shawady


> I don't know if this counts as a condescending post or not



No. As it was not a post, it was a PM and not in public. 

Was the PM condescending? 

With respect, it seemed to me clear at the time.

You wanted to Let off Steam. 
The Posting Guidelines say you can't because you did not have 50 posts. 
You appear to have been well aware of this.
So you decided to LoS anyway but in some other forum where you are allowed post. 

You joined in March 2008. You posted your Lisbon Treaty comment in December 08. So while you were not a Frequent Poster, you were not very "new to the website". 

It is hard work moderating Askaboutmoney. When people break the guidelines, I don't write long polite letters to them explaining why they are not allowed post. I much prefer answering people's financial questions. So I don't spend much time issuing warnings. They are blunt and to the point. If that is sometimes interpreted as condescending, so be it. 

But we are back to the original question - there seems to be no evidence of condescending posts, although  some posters find the wording on my notes on the breaches of posting guidelines condescending. 

brendan


----------



## Shawady (22 Jul 2011)

Brendan Burgess said:


> But the purpose of askaboutmoney is to help people with questions on financial and consumer issues. If they are reluctant to post in case they look stupid in public and will be looked down upon by experienced posters, then askaboutmoney is failing.


 
Brendan, I reason I posted it was the point you make here. If people are reluctant to post they will not get the full use of the website.
My initial gripe (if it was even that) was not being told i broke the guidelines but rather was when I apologised, rather than acknowledge my apology, you were more intent with telling me off again in a very direct manner.
Was it condescending or rude? I don't know but I certainly thought a reply along the lines of "_No problem, but just be aware that issues such as XXXX should be discussed in the LOS forum_" would have been more appropriate.

I obviously wasn't bothered about it. I have posted regurlary since and appreciate the work the mods do but someone new to the site might take offence to that style.


----------



## Bronte (22 Jul 2011)

Brendan Burgess said:


> But we are back to the original question - there seems to be no evidence of condescending posts, although some posters find the wording on my notes on the breaches of posting guidelines condescending.
> 
> brendan


 

I think Shawady is trying to explain to you why some people take offence, presumable in order to improve the site and the experience of those who use it, whether it's condescention or not isn't really important. 

When you're new whether it's a PM or a post won't make much difference to the poster. You asked for people's experiences, when you're new it's hard to understand what mod's have to do and why they do it. Personally I was initially shocked at the way people were on here, but hey I've joined the gang and generally understand it now. But for the first initial say 20 posts, to encourage people to post, we should be kinder. Moving to the correct forum, helping them understand rather than referring them to the posting guidelines. And no I don't think I've ever read the posting guidelines. 

Shawady tried to show you how people can get upset, at least that was the way I took it.  Probably the reason people will not point out other posters condescention is because the regular posters will not take the risk of insulting other posters who've been on here a long time.  Certainly I wouldn't highlight another frequent poster being condescending.  A better way to do it would be to contact new posters and ask them what did they think of their recent experiences on AAM.  

Apologies to everybody for my spelling today. I realise it's quite atrocious but will endeavour to improve.


----------



## Brendan Burgess (22 Jul 2011)

> Personally I was initially shocked at the way people were on here



It's very difficult to deal with this generalised comment without examples.

Just to be clear - there is a posting guideline "Do not abuse other posters"

Abusive posts are removed. So it probably would be a lot more "condescending" if we did not remove them.

If you see posts which are breaching the posting guidelines, report them. It's confidential. You are offending no one. 

Brendan


----------



## dewdrop (22 Jul 2011)

Is this debate going anywhere?


----------



## Brighid (22 Jul 2011)

Bronte, you are so right (as usual)not about condescension, rather people skills.... by the way to those of you who perceive me as a sensitive creature and of course you are entitled to your opinions, however, I can assure you that is not the case. I just abhor  unacceptable behaviour. When I questioned Brendan as to what I had done so wrong to cause such a personal attack he accused me of being abusive -OTT or what?. I  wonder how a new poster would feel under similar circumstances.


----------



## Brighid (22 Jul 2011)

Meant to say, that Brendan should thank me for this constructive feedback!!!


----------



## Brendan Burgess (23 Jul 2011)

dewdrop said:


> Is this debate going anywhere?



Hi dewdrop

I think it has got somewhere.

No one has come up with an example of a condescending post. So I think the thread has established that the suggestion that "some posters are condescending" is just not supported by the evidence. 

Some people don't bother reading the Posting Guidelines and object to being told not to breach them. 

Some people do not like the Posting Guidelines as it restricts their ability to bump posts or use bad language. 

Some others see that Askaboutmoney is better for the strict posting guidelines. 

I will try to be nicer to first time posters, but even today, there was a post with the title  "hello guys" from a first time poster. I really don't want to spend time reading this post and trying to figure out a suitable title for him. 

I won't call people rude, but they will still be stopped from bumping posts and I won't indulge them in a discussion of the issue.


----------



## Staples (24 Jul 2011)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Some people don't bother reading the Posting Guidelines and object to being told not to breach them.


 
There's no evidence of this on this thread. 

Some people have made it quite clear what it is they find objectionable but you continue to relate this to the guidelines themselves rather than to the way they're applied.

And nobody's asking you to go into lengthy explanations to justify what you've done - just to apply the same manners you seem to expect from everyone else.

But it's your site........, etc


----------

