# State pension - do UK buyback rules conflict with Irish years?



## Hooverfish (13 Nov 2019)

Context: I'm one of the 400,000 people who worked in the UK for whom records of some national insurance contributions appear to have been lost by HMRC. In my case, 5 years, 1987-1992, just before I moved to Ireland.

I have sent them some evidence I have of my payments but I'm getting nowhere except boilerplate letters offering me the chance to "buy back" years from the UK since 2006 at a cost of £780/year. They are accepting that I have 7 years contributions from 1977 but I think there should be 12 years in total.

I'm not alone... For anyone else affected, I recommend:





						Subscribe to read | Financial Times
					

News, analysis and comment from the Financial Times, the worldʼs leading global business publication




					www.ft.com
				








						Subscribe to read | Financial Times
					

News, analysis and comment from the Financial Times, the worldʼs leading global business publication




					www.ft.com
				











						The sweeping pension shake-up that could leave you with nothing at all
					

A new system to be introduced next month is supposed to be simpler and fairer. But many are in for a nasty retirement surprise




					www.theguardian.com
				



and stuff by former Pensions minister Steve Webb on Royal London eg https://www.royallondon.com/media/good-with-your-money-guides/topping-up-your-state-pension/

I only started checking into my own situation after it took me 18 months to sort out my husband's UK/Irish pensions. I won that one in the end, but it took a lot of hours.

I do remember that I wrote to the relevant Irish and UK social welfare departments in 1992 when I got here, asking for my records to be transferred (I think it was called an E301 form). Does anyone think it worthwhile trying to request this correspondence from Ireland under freedom of information in case it contains the info that has been lost by the UK? How?

It is just galling to remember the very long hours I worked in those days and that I paid up all my tax, NI etc. but if I cannot get back these entitlements, I might have to bite the bullet and pay to buy back years of entitlement, in order to have 10 years UK contributions for a partial pension, probably of about £48/week. However, the UK will only let you buy back since 2006/2007. *These are years when I already have a full Irish PRSI record.* Does anyone now how this potential time overlap pans out with the new total contributions approach to pensions? I don't get my pension until I am 68, in 2029...

I found information about the EU state benefits "overlapping" rules here *[broken link removed]*
This states on page 11 that the overlapping rules do not apply to state pension - it's excepted - but does anyone have any clue how this may be affected by the recent Brexit agreement on social payments or other more recent law? Obviously I don't want end up paying to back years to fix the UK mess just to discover in 2029 that I wasted my cash twice!

Thank you for any information or links that may be relevant.


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## Saavy99 (13 Nov 2019)

Hey
I dont know.about your lost.contributions  history but.if you.have worked continously.in  ireland  since your.return, you can ask to buy back years paying class 2 national  insurance , it will then only cost.you approx 150 pound per year.  Can you go back to previous employers, check through old bank statements etc. If you have your nat insurance no, HMRC must.have some.details on you.  Did you have children in uk, perhaps check with child benefit.office in NewCastle.


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## Hooverfish (13 Nov 2019)

I have a full Irish contribution record since 1992 when I moved here. There is a major problem with missing HMRC records in the UK and they do have records for me for 7 years, just not the 12 that I actually paid for. I already sent them correspondence from their own local tax office agreeing my accounts for those years and photocopies of cheque stubs of payments of tax and NI. I really encourage anyone who worked there to check their contribution record asap. According to some commentators on the FT articles (German, with full paper records of their own) this is affecting a lot of people who no longer live in the UK and is very hard to fix even when you have good documentary records yourself.


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## MeathCommute (13 Nov 2019)

My wife worked in NI for 10 years, and we have now bought back 10 more pension years at the cheaper Class2 rate because she is self employed. Works out at £169 sterling approx. per year instead of £600 sterling per year


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## Hooverfish (17 Nov 2019)

MeathCommute said:


> My wife worked in NI for 10 years, and we have now bought back 10 more pension years at the cheaper Class2 rate because she is self employed. Works out at £169 sterling approx. per year instead of £600 sterling per year


Thank you very much for that tip. I have now discovered there is still one letter trekking to Ireland via Gibraltar (that is cost-saving how exactly?) from the HMRC self employment bit, so my fingers are tightly crossed that they have found the missing years.


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## Hooverfish (3 Jan 2020)

I am just bringing this thread up again to warn people who are offered the option to buy back years of UK state pension contributions that according to the State Pension (contributory) EU Section in Sligo, you cannot overlap years between different countries (despite the EU legal link I posted above which states "overlapping" does not apply to state pensions).

This means if you worked in the UK a long time ago but here in recent years, you should be very careful about the letters offering pension buyback from the UK. In my case the UK offered years from 2007 for buyback but I was working here then, and I have a full Irish record since 2007. Social welfare are saying this would be wasted buyback money as it would just cancel out Irish PRSI payments for the same years. But the UK will not let me buy back the years in question when I was self employed there (1987-92) so I'm basically going to be stuck with a reduced pension.

But at least I won't have paid TWICE and still got nothing for those years! Be careful. The UK buyback can be great if the overlapping years/locations issue does not apply to you, but have you checked? Though I am going to write to them again asking them to explain why the advice I have been given directly seems to conflict with [broken link removed] page 11.


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## Andrew365 (3 Jan 2020)

Thank you, this may be a dumb question, but do the two systems talk to each other? How would anyone know there are overlapping years?


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## Hooverfish (3 Jan 2020)

Hi Andrew365 yes my understanding is that the two systems talk... at the moment as the UK pension age is one year earlier, you would first apply for whatever pension they are giving, next you apply 6 months early for the Irish bit, that you're entitled to one year later, and at that point you state you worked in the UK (it's a section on the form that asks if you worked outside Ireland). Ireland then requests your record of years/contributions from the UK - it all takes time that's why you apply six months early for the Irish one. Be careful (again...) ask for copies of records from other countries to be sent directly to you so you can check. For a family member, we had to request the UK to update their records and send them to Ireland again, as the first one sent proved to be inaccurate. 

The problem does not apply if you worked recently in the UK (or other countries) and can buy back the correct years. It's only if you are barred from buying back the correct years due to time elapsed, and you are actually already paid up in Ireland for the recent years that you are being offered to buy back by the UK. Then you might think, no problem I'll just buy back more recent UK years to get a full state pension, but the advice I got today was that it would be money down the drain.


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## Zeus2020 (6 Jan 2020)

Any update on this I have being buying back NI class 2 for years and prior to doing so was informed by social welfare that it is possible to claim both irish and U.K. full pensions and also people on AAM are also claiming both pensions 
I’m due to buy another year in April so don’t want to waste money  is there anyway I can get definitive answer


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## Zeus2020 (10 Jan 2020)

I was doing a bit of research on this and found a piece by the inmo to state that if you worked in U.K. you can buy back years and claim 2 pensions 
a lot of nurses trained and worked in the U.K. and they recommended doing it 
so it would be helpful if people who have retired and are doing this could clarify


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## Hooverfish (10 Jan 2020)

Hi Zeus I've no further reply from them yet. The INMO article is correct, you certainly can claim two pensions, that all works well. The issue only arises if the years you buy back are years for which you contributed in the other jurisdiction. So if you are allowed to buy back from the UK a year that you worked in the UK, go ahead! But if the UK only allow you buy back a recent year when in fact you were working in, and contributed PRSI in, Ireland, that's what we're trying to find out the answer to, because you *may* be wasting your money doing a buyback.


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## Zeus2020 (10 Jan 2020)

Thanks for reply we only have to wait and see


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## jim (28 Aug 2020)

What was the outcome of this please?


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## Hooverfish (28 Aug 2020)

Hi Jim. I decided to buy back the years anyway, as after proving in tedious detail my self-employment as well as my PAYE employment over my career in both jurisdictions, the UK agreed that I could pay class 2 (cheaper) contributions towards buyback. So I still don't know will I eventually get the years I have bought back (I'll post again if this forum is still here in 2027...). But the cost from my point of view, to fill in the years that they had lost my payments for, was only around £1200, so it seemed like a worthwhile "bet". I'm not going to continue buying back further recent years though, precisely because I don't know if it's going to work. If it does work, I should have the correct credits between the two jurisdictions now for a full state pension. It took over 3 months to get any documentation acknowledging the UK buyback payment I had made. There is another thread on this where another forum member read the legal documents in detail and thinks they found the loophole that does allow payment. I do hope they are right...


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## Aineyoung (28 Sep 2020)

Hi All, Im new to this thread, but dealing with similar issue as above, and dont know where to get advice..
I worked in UK  (NHS ) for approx. 13 years , before returning in 2001, to Irish HSE.
I applied to HMRC via query form with my NI number as to whether I could buy back years.
I received an acceptance letter just now , stating im eligible to pay class 2 NIC's . and that I have 18 qualifying years of NIC up to April 2020.
Its a total of 2,190 sterling to buy back from 2006 - 2020.. (roughly 2450 euro)
I have 8 weeks form date of this letter to buy back at this rate.
In these covoid times, they are not able to take calls /quires other than from people imminently retiring.
is it worth buying back these years? ..and paying this money. when I cant figure out ...whats best to do..

any and all advice welcome!!

Aine


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## Thirsty (28 Sep 2020)

There are others more qualified to give you detailed responses on pensions in general

But the UK weekly pension is something in the region of £165 per week I think.

Update: I decided to look it up, its now £175.  You might not get the full £175, the letter you have should tell you, but even the basic weekly amount is £134.

I'd challenge you to get a better rate of return for an investment of 2.5k.

Even with Boris / Brexit etc., I'd say go ahead, as long as its not money you need to pay the gas bill / mortgage / groceries.


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## 50andOut (28 Sep 2020)

Hi Aine

You worked for 13 years yet received 18 years worth of contributions? 
Also why only 8 weeks to pay - I think its up until 5 April 2021 that you can backdate to 2006 no?

Since you already have over 10 qualifying yours you can do nothing and assuming its still offered under the same conditions at your retirement age (i.e the rules don't change on eligibility) , then you can claim the reduced pension, whatever the rate payable is for those number of years, I havent checked

Or you can pay the backdated amount which will increase the amount you are entitled to, again assuming all things being equal you will receive a higher amount.

you may need to buy future years also to be eligible for the max UK pension

The value this offers is not in question - a few thousand now to get an annuity type payment in retirement that as Thirsty says above is a return you wont find anywhere (estimate 300k pot = a 10k annuity). The only risk, even if very small/not non-existent in my view is, the UK move to some kind of means tested scenario which could equate to losing the benefit and the money paid to backdate would also be lost.

50+O


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## Aineyoung (29 Sep 2020)

Hi All, many thanks for your replies. Looks like I've more to gain hopefully, so I am going to go ahead.

50 and out; they give 8 weeks to pay the shortfall at the prices quoted in the letter, which is roughly 156 per year, , after the 8 weeks there is a payment penalty. But I still have up to April 2023 to buy back, but the yearly price goes up.

Thanks again 

Aine.


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## Malnor (13 Nov 2020)

Aineyoung said:


> Hi All, Im new to this thread, but dealing with similar issue as above, and dont know where to get advice..
> I worked in UK  (NHS ) for approx. 13 years , before returning in 2001, to Irish HSE.
> I applied to HMRC via query form with my NI number as to whether I could buy back years.
> I received an acceptance letter just now , stating im eligible to pay class 2 NIC's . and that I have 18 qualifying years of NIC up to April 2020.
> ...


Hi Aine would you mind posting the link to HMRC that you used? Many thanks


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