# What standing does Mgt Co have in a dispute between neighbours? & related Qs.



## Distressed

Well, it's gone 5am, I have work in a few hours and I haven't had a wink of sleep after receiving a letter from our management company falsely accusing my boyfriend and I of making loud noise and littering - completely untrue.

We've been renting this apartment for nearly 2 years at this stage, and this is the first time we've had a complaint made against us. We have been accused of "boisterous behaviour", "continuous playing of loud music until 6am" and throwing alcohol and cigarettes over our balcony - all completely untrue!!

We have NEVER had a party in our apartment, and we rarely even have anyone over, whether during the day, or at night. We both work long hours, and I just sat the Professional Three Accounting exams last week. I was at my parents house in the UK for my three months of study leave. They have stated the date of 14 June 2008 as one of the nights where we supposedly had a wild party. I travelled back to Ireland on 15 June 2008, so my boyfriend and I obviously remember the night in question. I rang my boyfriend on the night of the 14 June 2008, and he was on the couch watching TV, not drinking, not partying and preparing for a day of cleaning for my return! On top of that, we don't even have anything to play music on - our CD player has been broken for months, and we don't have a dock for our i-pods or anything - in fact we never listen to music in our apartment.

I called my boyfriend every night while I was away, and I know that he never had people over to the apartment during that time, we have never entertained the idea of having a party in our apartment.

I'm generally not a smoker, but around exam time I generally do smoke a bit, but we have a pot on our balcony that we would ALWAYS put cigarette butts into, and we have never, and would never, throw cigarette butts over the balcony. Plus, I was only smoking for the 2 weeks of my exams - this was post the alleged wild party where cigarette butts were thrown over the balcony.

They are also saying that people in other apartment blocks - which are nowhere near our apartment- are complaining about "shouting" from our balcony - also totally untrue, we are rarely on our balcony, and who would we be shouting to, our apartment backs onto a copse and the car park, and it's only ever been the two of us on the balcony, as I said previously, we very rarely have people over. How would the people in the other apartment blocks, which are not visible from our balcony as we're right at the back of the complex, be able to state that we were the ones shouting? Just ludicrous.. 

I'm so upset about the allegations, the most frustrating part is, how can we prove that it isn't us? I know our neighbours to our left very well, and they have never had any complaints against us. I'm so angry that we would be accused in such a way, and the letter makes references to "witnesses" seeing us causing a nuisance- this greatly disturbs me, as my boyfriend and I have never done anything they have accused us of.

The letter was dated 19 June 2008, however it was postmarked 1 July 2008 and we received it yesterday - seems strange to me. Also, we had an inspection by our landlords on Wednesday - we obviously hadn't received the letter from the management company by then, so we thought, as the letter from the estate agents stated, that it was a "routine" inspection. Our apartment is in perfect order, and we haven't heard anything from the estate agents saying otherwise.

I'm wondering what we can do, I know that we need to put something in writing, but do we have any right to obtain what these supposed "witnessses" have said, what exactly they seem to have seen us doing to make a nuisance? I really just don't know what our rights are. To be honest, after this, I feel that for some reason, someone has a vendetta against us, and I now feel like a prisoner in my own home. I feel like I can't go onto the balcony, or turn on the TV for fear of complaint!

Also what are our rights if we want to leave? Our lease isn't up until 15 September 2008, but to be honest, I am just so upset about this and disgusted that we could be treated in this way, that I just want to move out.

Help!


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## Bubbly Scot

*Re: False Accusations by Management Company*

Congratulations on surviving the exams. So sorry you came back to such a distressing situation.

I've dealt with situations where complaints have been made falsley against tenants in complexes. The agent has to follow up any complaints, the onus will be on you to prove them wrong. Unfortunatly that is how it is. They will give you dates and instances but not details of who made the complaint.

Write back to the agent, keep your letter clear and calm.

Ask around some of your immediate neighbours, see if they will support you. Remember though, they might not want to fall foul of their management company (if they own, they are members).

Request details of any complaints made to the guarda.

Point out that you were out of the country on the date in question but don't over stress the situation with your boyfriend.

If you plan to stay, it's worth being co-operative with the agent, not bowing down, just show willing to get to the bottom of the problem. If however, you wish to leave the timing is quite good. Being in the apartment for two years your notice period would take you nicely up to around the 15th September.

If your boyfriend was behaving himself while you were away, it sounds like someone might have it in for you, or more specifically "renters". It could also be a case of mistaken identity, you don't mention if there is anyone rowdy close to you.

Might be worth having a chat with your landlord, in the current climate he won't want to lose good tenants so might be willing to help out with the Management Company on your behalf. 

On a personal note though, like you I think I would just want to move on, life is much too short to be stressing about other peoples issues.


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## Distressed

*Re: False Accusations by Management Company*

Thanks Bubbly Scot, helpful advice, and very much appreciated I think the stress of the exams has certainly magnified the situation in my eyes, and I'll try and calm down before I write the letter! Thanks again.


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## bugler

*Re: False Accusations by Management Company*

Is it possible that the complaints were made in good faith but they have the wrong apartment number and are blaming you by mistake? 

Though you'd imagine they could get within an apartment or two, and then it's likely you would have heard any music etc and wherever it was coming from. 

I know from experience that it can be difficult to pin down where exactly noise is coming from in a complex.

I wouldn't lose any sleep over it to be honest. If you've done nothing wrong then just explain so to the Mgt Co. and your LL and forget about it.


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## Cityliving

*Re: False Accusations by Management Company*

Hey distressed.

Sorry the hear about your problems. 

First of all dont worry about this - worst case you move on - not end of the world. 

Write a letter to the management company (or more likely the agent I guess) explaining that the allegations are completely without merit request a meeting to discuss them and at this meeting for them to produce the "evidence" they claim exists. If they arent 100% certain they`ll back down immediately.

Canvess your neighbours to see if there is a problem (or a problem of mistaken identity) surely if someone close is that much a nightmare you would know of them too??

Most importantly call you LL and explain everything to him as he will be part of the management company. take the position that you will leave if he does not sort this issue and as you are no doubt nice people he should know there has been a mistake.

If the Mgt company/agent arent willing to discuss it with you or allege anything further and you dont mind moving on in the end contact newstalk 106 as they did a few pieces on Mgt Companies being unregulated and they would lap up your story. If they reproduce they allegations in a public arena they would be very brave as you can sue.

Again dont worry.


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## DeeFox

*Re: False Accusations by Management Company*

This seems to be a clear case of mistaken identity.  Ask for a written withdrawal of the allegation from the management company.  Ensure that you keep any correspondence simple, polite and professional.  Do not get defensive or angry with the management company or neighbors as you have nothing to apologise for - keep a calm head.  Good luck with the exam results.


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## Lauren

*Re: False Accusations by Management Company*



DeeFox said:


> This seems to be a clear case of mistaken identity. Ask for a written withdrawal of the allegation from the management company. Ensure that you keep any correspondence simple, polite and professional. Do not get defensive or angry with the management company or neighbors as you have nothing to apologise for - keep a calm head. Good luck with the exam results.


 
Good advice. Sounds clearcut enough. And agree re the withdrawal from the management company and an apology for the distress caused to you. Let us know how you get on.


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## Distressed

*Re: False Accusations by Management Company*

Thank you to everyone for your kind words and advice. We have contacted our estate agents and the management company with regard to the matter this morning, following my overnight freak out. Our estate agents have given us their full support, and have told us to pursue the matter with the management company with this in mind. 

In addition, having spoken to the management company and given them our version of events, they have agreed that once we have put everything in writing, they will be happy to issue a full written apology.

I would love to post it to everyone in the apartment block once we have received it - but I will restrain myself!

Thanks again for all your advice and good wishes, these are very much appreciated.


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## Complainer

*Re: False Accusations by Management Company*

I'd imagine it must be very difficult for somebody on the outside to know the apartment number of any given balcony. This could easily be mistaken identity.


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## Distressed

*Re: False Accusations by Management Company*

Just for curiosity's sake, I did think about mistaken identity, we have other balconies above us so this may well be the case. However, I personally have never heard any noise from the surrounding apartments, which is what I found strange. 

I'm aware now that similar complaints were made against previous tenants who lived in our apartment about parties and noise - some of the tenants who received such complaints actually at that time worked for the estate agents that rent out the apartment! Sounds strangely familiar. Our estate agents have thus been very understanding and have even sent out a lease renewal form to us for the coming year!

I think that Bubbly Scott was right about one of our grumpy owner occupier neighbours not liking "renters" very much. It could perhaps be our snot green coloured old school Fiat Punto parked inbetween the Jaguar and Mercedes that has become intolerable to some.

Think it's definitely time to move on and find a new place.


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## ajapale

*Re: False Accusations by Management Company*

Moved from  Property Investment to Management Companies, Apartment Living, etc


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## Yorrick

*Re: False Accusations by Management Company*

I am a Director of a small Manageement Committee. Itis my experience that in most apartment complexes there is a "nosy parker" a sad individual who has nothing to do but record the comings and goings of the other residents. They will make wild allegations at A.G.M.s about the behaviours of others. Funnily enough when asked to give dates and times they back down. 
The Management Company probably got a earful of rubbish from him/her and decided wrongly at try and attribute blame on you.
In fact I have got letters from fools of local councillors demanding that the Mangemeent Company do something about anto social behaviour as a result of a complaint made by a resident to the councillor.
Thats where a shredder comes in handy


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## Butter

*Re: False Accusations by Management Company*

That is a horrible thing to happen, so I hope you are getting over it now ok. 
Last year I got a letter from the management company of a block where I own an apartment but have it rented out. It said that due to the continuous bad behaviour of my tenant and the fact that I as landlord had ignored repeated warnings about my tenant the police were now being asked to become involved. It was a very heavy handed threatening letter.
I was absolutely horrified as I was sure that I had picked a reliable tenant and I had received no previous letters about him. I got straight onto the management company and after many phone calls getting the run around from them it turned out that the letter they sent me should have been sent to the same number as my apartment but a completely different apartment complex across the other side of the city.
I was really annoyed both by the threatening nature of the letter that I got but more so by the fact that they had got it so wrong. I asked for and got a letter of apology as I wanted it on record that this issue was nothing to do with my apartment.
Who knows what kind of a mistake that they might have made with you. Once your landlord is on your side I am sure you will be able to clear it up. Don't be pushed out if you like the place.


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## Brianne

*Re: False Accusations by Management Company*

OP, delighted to hear that things worked out alright. On a funnier note , a policeman relative once gave me the following advise(tongue in cheek).

Procedure to be followed when accused of a crime.

!. Act Surprised!!!

2. Show Concern.

3. Deny Everything!!!

4. Demand Proof.


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## shesells

*Re: False Accusations by Management Company*



Brianne said:


> OP, delighted to hear that things worked out alright. .


 
Did I miss something? Didn't think the OP had sorted anything out and was thinking of moving?


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## Brianne

*Re: False Accusations by Management Company*

In addition, having spoken to the management company and given them our version of events, they have agreed that once we have put everything in writing, they will be happy to issue a full written apology.

I would love to post it to everyone in the apartment block once we have received it - but I will restrain myself!

Thanks again for all your advice and good wishes, these are very much appreciated.


I took this as meaning that the OP is on her way to resolving the matter


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## NorthDrum

*Re: False Accusations by Management Company*

One thing I would say is get that letter off the management company confirming that you have done nothing wrong.

Very long story short, I took a case to the PRTB (private residential tenancies board) regarding renting family above me who had no respect for us whatsoever. They had their young kids up until all hours of the morning (their kitchen was above our bedroom and of course it had wooden floors!!!), parked in our legally marked parking spots (despite the fact every 2nd spot was free) had a 48 hour new years eve party (whenever we had friends over we let our neighbours know it was gonna be a late one). They let their children play basketball in the house, kick a football off our bedroom wall . . . I could go on.

Basically I asked them to give us some respect, then I posted a letter just explaining how hard it was for us to get rest in bed or just relaxing with all the noise coming down among other things. 

Again jumping ahead the story at the adjudicators meeting we were accused of being racist. I flipped my lid, we lost the case (be careful at these supposed independent meetings, our adjudicator had made up her mind before we even got there and intimidated us into backing down).

One of the things they said was that the management company quoted either myself or my wife as saying racist remarks. I went into the management company and demanded to know who had said this or that they issue me with a letter confirming that neither of us ever said anything racists about the tenants above. Got the letter, sent it into the PRTB with a complaint on their mishandling of our case. We ended up moving house the same month we got married, best thing we ever did. Noisy/ignorant tenants arent worth fighting against unless its an open and shut case.

My point for the OP was to get a letter of the Mgt company confirming that you havent done anything wrong, if nothing else it gives you some sort of closure and satisfaction.


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## danash

*Re: False Accusations by Management Company*



Bubbly Scot said:


> I've dealt with situations where complaints have been made falsley against tenants in complexes. The agent has to follow up any complaints, the onus will be on you to prove them wrong. .


 

I've just read through this thread and this piece scares the bejaasus out of me - since when did management companies get superior powers to our established system of justice?


While I see the OP is stressed this is a simple case of standing up for oneself. 

No one is guilty just because someone sends them a letter with a logo at the top.


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## GeneralZod

*Re: False Accusations by Management Company*

The same thing happened to me. And I'm the secretary of our management company .  I just rang the management agent and got them to resend it to the real culprit.


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## Padraigb

*Re: False Accusations by Management Company*

I'm pulling up this old thread because I have become involved in a situation that has some things in common with the things discussed above: one neighbour complaining about another being noisy.

The management company has written to the owner of the apartment asking that they speak to their tenants. The tenants deny making excessive noise, and the owner believes them. So it boils down to a "yes you did; no I didn't" situation.

The letter from the management company includes the passage


> Please also be aware that if the situation does not improve [we] will have no option but to take the matter further.



My questions: 
- what standing does the management company have in a dispute between neighbours?
- if they have any standing, what steps should they take to determine if a complaint is reasonable?
- if they decide to take the matter further, what options are open to them?


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## ajapale

Ive changed the title to reflect this well worded and interesting question. Let me know if its ok.

aj
moderator


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## Padraigb

ajapale said:


> Ive changed the title to reflect this well worded and interesting question. Let me know if its ok.



That's fine by me. Thank you (or should I have used the new button?).


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## Mers1

PadraigB, 

hope this helps, this is what we sent to the Landlord and to the tenant of an apartment that was giving us hassle, we were sucessful! If you have a copy of your lease agreement for the property and download a copy of the Residential Tenancies Act  2004



> Further to recent complaints made to XXXXXXX Property Management we XXXXXXXXXXXX
> Management Company () now wish to advise that we will have to follow the matter
> with your landlord.
> Under section 16(h) of the Residential Tenancies Act 2004 you are obliged not to behave
> within the above dwelling, or in the vicinity of it, in a way that is anti-social. You are also
> obliged not to allow other occupiers of, or visitors to, the above dwelling to behave within it,
> or in its vicinity, in a way that is anti-social.
> 
> In accordance with section 17 of the Act "behave in a way that is anti-social" means;
> (a) engage in behaviour that constitutes the commission of an offence, being an offence the
> commission of which is reasonably likely to affect directly the well-being or welfare of
> others,
> 
> (b) engage in behaviour that causes, or could cause fear, danger, injury, damage or loss to any
> person living, working or otherwise lawfully in the dwelling concerned or its vicinity and
> without prejudice to the generality of the foregoing, includes violence, intimidation,
> coercion, harassment or obstruction of, or threats to, any such person, or
> (c) engage, persistently, in behaviour that prevents or interferes with the peaceful occupation
> (i) by any other person residing in the dwelling concerned, of that dwelling,
> (ii) by any person residing in any other dwelling contained in the property containing
> the dwelling concerned, of that other dwelling, or
> (iii) by any person residing in a dwelling ("neighbourhood dwelling") in the vicinity
> of the dwelling or the property containing the dwelling concerned, of that
> neighbourhood dwelling.
> 
> 
> By contacting your landlord they are obliged under section 15 of the Act to enforce the
> tenant obligations applying to you. They are also duty bound to inform you of the house
> rules that are in place in accordance with the Lease agreement in particular sections XX and
> XX pertaining to parking which read as follows;
> 
> 
> If any further form of anti-social behaviour recurs or is engaged in by you or your visitors or
> other occupants of the dwelling, take note that we will ask your landlord to immediately
> proceed to terminate your tenancy and will accordingly, if such behaviour occurs, serve
> Notice of Termination on you to terminate your tenancy of the above dwelling.
> 
> Signed: __________________________
> Date: ____________________________


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## Padraigb

Thanks, Mers1.

I am actually on the other side of a dispute, representing the landlord's interest where there have been complaints about the tenant. I have met the tenant, who has a wife and four young children. They are a polite family and the children seem to me to be very well-behaved (and I say this as somebody who is frequently irritated by the behaviour of other people's feral children). They feel oppressed by the neighbour, who bangs frequently on the party wall when the children are playing in the house, and has shouted over the fence when they play in the garden. The tenant, in his imperfect English, says of the neighbour that he thinks "she is not right in the head".

I am irked by the tone of the letter from the management company, which treats of the matter as if it were a proven fact that the tenants are misbehaving.


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## Mers1

Ah ha, 

Well I can understand where you are coming from also, one of our members who insisted on this letter being sent lived next to the property in question.  Whilst the tenant was v. noisy on a number of occasions, she became totally intolerant of any noise at all - a clash of personalities played a huge part also.

Again I would refer to your lease agreement where it states what you are entitled to do, and to the tenancies act which says what tenants are entitled to.  If the complaints persist have complainant/mgmt company ask the EPA come and put a decibel monitor in the property, this can be done over a period of time which will gauge the actual noise levels.

All I can recommend I'm afraid.

Good luck


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## Padraigb

Thanks, again, Mers1.

I am broadly aware of the legal rights and obligations in the matter, and conscious also of social obligations that are not enforceable in law. I know the tenants sincerely believe that they are not particularly noisy, and they tell me that they are constantly conscious of the neighbour's requirements because she hammers so frequently on the party wall, and they wish to minimise any unpleasantness. But, as they point out, children need to play.

I believe the tenants. I know that I could be mistaken, but I have a high level of confidence in my judgement on this one.

I think the complaints to the management company are vexatious. I recognise that a management company gets caught in the middle in matters like this. But, as I said, I am irked by their apparent willingness to communicate with me as if the complaints were well-founded. There is an ominous tone when they write


> Please also be aware that if the situation does not improve [name of management company] will have no option but to take the matter further.



I think that your idea of moving the issue sideways to the EPA is the way to go.


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## Seagull

What type of property is it? Semi-d, terrace, apartment? Try asking the nighbours on the other side (assuming there are any) if they have any issues with noise from your tenants.


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## Padraigb

It's a terraced house. The neighbours on the other side have no problem with the tenants. Neither did the previous occupants of the house where the complainants reside. Everything seems to feed into the one idea: that the problem is the neighbours, and not the tenants I am dealing with.


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## Seagull

Is the complainant a tenant or an owner? If a tenant, complain to the management company about her behaviour and see how they react.


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## Padraigb

The complainant is an owner. I do not have my own knowledge of the behaviour, so do not think I have a basis for making a complaint. The tenant in the house for which I have responsibility has complained, but I think neither strongly nor frequently. He is a very mild-mannered man.

I would be satisfied if the management company concluded that the neighbour's complaints were ill-founded, and told the neighbour so. I think this is a situation where the wheels will have to turn slowly.


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