# security tag left on but manager refuses refund.need advice!



## nina (20 Nov 2011)

On 7/11/11, I bought a dress in Debenhams in the Quays shopping centre in Newry for £100. I bought it for the purpose of wearing it to a wedding on 11/11/11. On the day of the wedding I had the dress on and I was ready to go out the door of the hotel when my husband spotted a security tag hanging from it that was not removed at the time of purchase. 
I was extremely annoyed but I could do nothing about it that day. I had to wear another dress to the wedding. 
On 19/11/11, I went to return the dress to Debenhams. I had the receipt and all the tags from the dress. On returning it, the assistant called the manager. He examined the dress and said that I could not return it as there were deodorant stains on it. I explained that I had put it on as I had every intention of wearing it until I discovered the security tag. He still refused to refund me. I stated that I felt I was intitled to a refund or credit note as it was due to the fault of the store that I was unable to wear the dress and it therefore was not fit for the intended purpose. I felt that the manager was very rude to me and I was reduced to tears. Eventually, he said that he would give it to me at sale price and I got a 40% reduction. Because I was so upset, I didn’t want to argue anymore so I got the tag removed and left with the dress.
This, unfortunately, is not what I wanted. I now have a dress that I have paid £60 for that I don’t need or want. I also paid for parking to return the dress and money on petrol on the 70km round trip journey. I strongly believe that I should get a refund as this was totally an error on the stores part.
I don’t know where to go from here though as I can’t write a letter of complaint to the manager, as he was the one that I was dealing with. I would appreciate any ideas or opinions on this matter, even negative ones if you think I’m seeing this in the wrong light!!!
Thanking you.


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## Sandals (20 Nov 2011)

nina said:


> I don’t know where to go from here though as I can’t write a letter of complaint to the manager, as he was the one that I was dealing with.




I dont see why not, write your letter, be professional and not emotional, follow the advice stated on the Consumerconnect website. Keep any contact records, documentation, etc. 

If the shop has a head office address them about the manager's conduct, the security tag etc.

I see people contacting Tina Lenoard on TV progs and helping with consumer complaints. 

Personally if i purchased a dress for a wedding and found the security tag on the dress I have to say my day would be ruined. 

I had a situation before with manager of Tesco (basically she was a  blank wall, dismissed me from the counter over an overcharge) and emailed head office, next morning a full apology, I was in the right, giftcard of €10 arrived and as I was so disgusted with the local store I wrote to the manager of the local store and received €40 of a giftcard.


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## nina (20 Nov 2011)

Thanks for that. Like your experience, this man was plain rude and almost laughed at me. I found the way that I was treated more annoying than anything. I didn't get his name though as he had no name tag on. I'm sure I could check out and find Debenham's main office and contact them. Thanks for that.


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## Padraigb (20 Nov 2011)

The basics of consumer law give three remedies where goods are faulty - repair, replacement, or refund. In general, it is for the seller to choose between them. By removing the security tag, Debenham's effectively made a proper repair.

I imagine that you did not make it clear when buying the dress that it was intended to be worn on a particular day, and that you didn't want it for anything else, so your disappointment would carry no weight if you went to law about it. Further, even if you had made it clear, you might not do well in a court of law, because a judge might have been persuaded that you had some responsibility to check it before the big day.


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## nina (20 Nov 2011)

Thanks again Sandals,
Following your advice, i looked up their website and contacted customer service at headquarters. They have already stated that the way in which I was treated was totally unacceptable and he is going to contact the manager and phone me back today with an offer of resolution. I'll keep you posted!!


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## Scotsgirl (20 Nov 2011)

Same thing happened to me in Dunnes with a pair of trousers I bought for an event.  I had to wear other ones instead.  I went back to Dunnes and they apologised and gave me a full refund.  

I think you have been very badly treat Nina and should get full refund. 

PadraigB, why would she say when purchasing the dress what she intended it for? How many people do that when they go shopping. I certainly don't.  I shop, I try on and I purchase. That's got nothing to do with the fact that she was unable to wear it on the day she bought it for.


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## Padraigb (20 Nov 2011)

Scotsgirl said:


> ... PadraigB, why would she say when purchasing the dress what she intended it for? ...



It's to do with the essence of a contract. In general, garments are purchased with the intention that they be used on a number of occasions (exceptions that spring to mind are wedding dresses and shrouds). Unless it has been made clear to a retailer that it is essential that the garment be ready for use on a particular date, it is difficult to repudiate a contract.

So far as the retailer was concerned, she bought a dress for general use, and the fact that she was unable to use it on a particular day was an inconvenience for which she is being compensated by getting a 40% discount.


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## Brendan Burgess (20 Nov 2011)

Padraigb said:


> Igarments are purchased with the intention that they be used on a number of occasions (exceptions that spring to mind are wedding dresses and shrouds). .



I believe that the retailers of shrouds have very happy customers. Well, at least, none of them ever complains.

Brendan


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## Complainer (20 Nov 2011)

I think their only obligation would have been to remove the tag. Anything else (such as the discount you got) would have been good will. You'll have other weddings to go to, surely?


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## SparkRite (20 Nov 2011)

_I _wonder (being devils advocate) would it hold water, that the item purchased was not in a condition to be used ie. not fit for its intended purpose (as OP stated), and therefore the purchaser is entitled to a full refund.

This is based on that any "fault" that surfaces within 6 months of purchase, then is deemed to have been a manufacturing fault and so it ensues that the buyer is due a full refund.

I understand that a security tag mistakenly left in place is not a fault per say, but nevertheless, as a consumer I would imagine that it is reasonable to assume that after paying for an item all such tags are removed.

Just my twopence worth......


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## Complainer (20 Nov 2011)

She could probably have brought it into any Debenhams branch to get the yoke removed.


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## SparkRite (20 Nov 2011)

Complainer said:


> She could probably have brought it into any Debenhams branch to get the yoke removed.



Of course she could have, but that does not detract from what happened.

Look I'm just acting the Mick here, but I know that if the same happened to Mrs Sparkrite all hell would break out.

But to be fair if I bought an item and 2days/weeks/months later I went to use it and found because of some oversight on the retailers part it was unusable then I would be a bit peeved as well.


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## irishmoss (20 Nov 2011)

I think the issue here though is that the dress wasn't returned in the condition it left the shop. it had deodorant stains.  In fairness to the manager he had to make a call on whether the dress was worn or not. In his judgement it obviously was so  I think  the resolution offered was fair although I can understand how mad you were.

I'm surprised though you didn't notice the tag when you put the dress on, those tags are heavy!


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## SparkRite (20 Nov 2011)

irishmoss said:


> I think the issue here though is that the dress wasn't returned in the condition it left the shop.



I remember years ago I brought back VHS tapes to Argos under their "No quibble" guarantee because of dropouts.

They argued that it had been "used" I argued that had it not how was I to know that it was below par????

They said "How can we resell it now that it has been used?".
I said "You shouldn't be selling them is the first place".

Anyway, to make a long story more boring , they eventually gave me a refund (so much for "no quibble") but my point being that is can be perceivable that the OP did not notice the security tag until the dress was worn.

Which is what the item was intended for.


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## becky (20 Nov 2011)

It happened to me twice.  Once was a swinsuit and I only noticed when I was packing. A brother, a hammer and a pair of pliers sorted that one for me.

Next time it happened with a pair of sunglasses and as I noticed in the car I went straight back to the shop. I was made to feel like a shop lifter.

Seems people buy one item and nick the same item and then ask the shop to take the yoke off the nicked pair.


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## Padraigb (21 Nov 2011)

SparkRite said:


> _I _wonder (being devils advocate) would it hold water, that the item purchased was not in a condition to be used ie. not fit for its intended purpose (as OP stated), and therefore the purchaser is entitled to a full refund....



I don't think it would hold water.

It's pushing definitions to say that the dress was "not fit for purpose" in the sense that the courts would use the phrase. There was a problem with it. The seller has the general right to choose what remedy to apply, and chose one.


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## irishmoss (21 Nov 2011)

It happened to me too in Esprit but I'm wondering now though how the alarm didn't go off at the door? Can't remember if it went off going back in.


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## Newbie! (21 Nov 2011)

Hi Nina,

That particular shop obviously have a track ercord in leaving the tags on. It has happened my mum twice now (both times in the newry store). She didnt want to return the items on either occassion but did want an apology which was not particularly forthcoming (she lives in the country and getting to a store was not easy). Incredibly poor customer service.


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## Mongola (21 Nov 2011)

I don't think you have much recourse here as you have accepted the price reduction he has offered you and taken the money, meaning that you have accepted the "deal". This does not excuse the poor/lack of customer service though.


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## putsch (21 Nov 2011)

This has happened to me a few times and its incredibly annoying. It always seems to be some store that's inconvenient to get to too!

I remember it happening with BT and for some reason I thought their store in Dundrum would deal with it but no - I had to make my way into the city, park, show all the paperwork etc. I couldn't use it for the function I wanted it for but was so mad and afraid I'd lose my temper that I didn't even complain or seek redress.


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## Scotsgirl (21 Nov 2011)

When I discovered the tag on my trousers that I purchased from Dunnes,  I thought no problem, I will go to my local branch and they can remove it.  They didn't even do tags in that branch so didn't have the machine.  They sent me to a local sports shop in case they could do it for me but their tagging system was different so they couldn't help me, and I didn't have time to return to the original store.

When I went back to original shop I said to the girl that the alarm never went off when I left she said that a lot of items that are on rails near the entrance have fake tags on them so they don't keep setting the alarms off.  I have heard this before about other shops so the op probably got one of those.

Irishmoss, I know you say how did she not notice the tag when trying on the dress as its very heavy - but she would have know the tag was on then as she hadn't purchased it yet.  She didn't expect to still have the tag on the dress after getting home!

Sometimes they are the ones with dye in them so no use even trying DIY removal.


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## Sandals (21 Nov 2011)

nina said:


> Thanks again Sandals,
> Following your advice, i looked up their website and contacted customer service at headquarters. They have already stated that the way in which I was treated was totally unacceptable and he is going to contact the manager and phone me back today with an offer of resolution. I'll keep you posted!!



Delighted, personally am a bit shocked at what other people have said about this situation,

i know I spend ages shopping for an outfit as required and to think the shop left a security tag on is unacceptable no matter what the shop is, I would consider this shop to be of the higher end.  

I purchased a €300 approx dress for a New Eve do which I knew Id only wear the once, did I tell the salesperson that (wud they care?), no, so why would it make any difference if one plans to wear the dress 10 times, can't see the logical in that, its not like my husband's suits, shirts or ties even.....


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## Sue Ellen (21 Nov 2011)

Another thing that you need to be careful about with those tags is that they can leave holes in garments.  I bought a very light material top some time ago and when I got it home the tag was still on it.  I returned to the shop and when they attempted to take the tag off it left a hole in the material.  Thye issued a refund immediately.

If the person applying the tag does not fit it in the right place it can cause this problem.  So if you are buying something make sure that no hole is left where they have removed the tag.  Best to do so at time of purchase if you think of it.


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## irishmoss (21 Nov 2011)

No what I meant was how did she not know the tag was there when she put the dress on in the hotel and for the dress to be soiled sufficiently to be refused a refund.  

If you try on a dress in a store it is only on for a few minutes so generally it doesn't get soiled. This dress was either worn for a period of time to warrant the staining or she sprayed deodorant on her with the dress on.

I think personally she did ok getting the part refund as she made mistakes too






Scotsgirl said:


> Irishmoss, I know you say how did she not notice the tag when trying on the dress as its very heavy - but she would have know the tag was on then as she hadn't purchased it yet. She didn't expect to still have the tag on the dress after getting home!
> 
> Sometimes they are the ones with dye in them so no use even trying DIY removal.


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## Time (21 Nov 2011)

Put the tag in the freezer and hit it with a large hammer. That will get it off.


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## elcato (21 Nov 2011)

> Put the tag in the freezer and hit it with a large hammer.


I'm sure that would do wonders for the dress as well.


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## callybags (21 Nov 2011)

elcato said:


> I'm sure that would do wonders for the dress as well.


 
Not to mention the freezer.


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## nina (23 Nov 2011)

Well I contacted customer services. They ut me in contact with the store's deputy manager. He phoned me and I told him my case. He said that it was unacceptable and said that he would talk to the manager. He phoned me back to say that he has spoken to hm but that the Manager wouldn't back down. He said that he was sorry and gave me the manager's name and suggested that I contact head office. Not sure whether I should. The thing that really annoys me is that the manager was so rude and never once apologised. I still feel I was very badly treated and that i should say something as this is happening way too often. Also, what is the ctiteria for becoming a manager these days? Do the ads say " Really arrogant person needed"?!


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## Black Sheep (28 Nov 2011)

Would the hammer need to be frozen as well?


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## amtc (28 Nov 2011)

I bought a suit in Arnotts recently to wear to a work event the next day. I had tried it on, and liked it (it was one I had seen at full price and was pleased to get at €300). I was on the bus into town to go to the event and someone mentioned it to me that the tag was still on. I was mortified. It was a heavy material and right at the back of the skirt, so I couldn't feel it. 

The event started at 10am, which is the time Arnotts open. I had asked the girl for her opinion on the suit the day before so she did recognise me, but she said she needed the receipt (which I had left at home). I could have dialled up my account that showed what I had paid. I asked how she expected I was supposed to go to a work event wearing a tag. She asked had I any other clothes with me. At this stage I was livid - and late! Eventually and with bad grace, they removed the tag. 

No apology. I have bought - i worked out - the majority of 6k worth of clothes from Planet over the last few years per annum. I wrote to Arnotts and Planet. No reply. No apology. 

I haven't bought anything there since.

Just to add for debenhams, I bought a pair of shoes in Faith and the heel broke once, when I returned them and got a new pair the same thing happened. I wrote to Debenhams and got sterling vouchers for 15 sterling. Went into replace the shoes and was looked at incredulously. I actually went and bought a 5 euro pair of shoes in penneys...


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## liaconn (29 Nov 2011)

I had the tag left on a dress I bought in Promod in Liffey Valley recently. When I rang them and asked if there was anywhere more local I could go to get it removed they immediately gave me the names of a couple of other shops owned by the same company in Tallaght and Dundrum. The manager gave me her name to use so they would know I was genuine and also said to ask for her the next time I was in and I would get a discount. I hadn't bought the dress for a special occasion or anything but still got a very prompt polite and helpful response.


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## CatherineB (29 Dec 2011)

Scotsgirl said:


> When I discovered the tag on my trousers that I purchased from Dunnes,  I thought no problem, I will go to my local branch and they can remove it.  They didn't even do tags in that branch so didn't have the machine.  They sent me to a local sports shop in case they could do it for me but their tagging system was different so they couldn't help me, and I didn't have time to return to the original store.




Yes, this was an inredible oversight. Aside from your issue, it also affects refunds- items are taken back to a different store, then that store has to send them to a store that can take the different tag off and sell it there. The black circular tags with dye in them are used by less important stores- your average Dunnes. Massive Dunnes and flagship Dunnes use the newer ones, the white thin ones. Cornelscourt, Blanch, Liffey Valley, Stephen's Green, Henry Street all do..so stores along those lines. So it doesn't have to be removed by the original store per se. Black tags are removed by a strong magnet attached to the underside of the till, or loose. White tags are complicated to re move, and the system is built into the counter. So white-tag stores can remove black tags as they usually would have the magnet thing lying around, but vice versa does not work.

The white tags were introduced as they're impossible to remove by hand, whereas the black ones an be done.

All tags are aimed to be at a seam so the pinprick left is not noticeable. They are quite diffiult to aim though in some garments. There is no other way though of applying a tag to clothes.

'Fake' tags do not exist, in Dunnes anyway. The black tags and white tags are not deactivated at the till, they are seperated and reused constantly for new clothes coming in. Once joined, they work and set off alarms. The problem which they may not have wanted to draw your attention to- is that plenty of Dunnes do not actually have security barriers. So they serve mainly as deterrents. The sticker tag with the barcode that you see on CD's and makeup is the only one that could be 'fake' as it isn't taken off, just deactivated.

Some stores have a sensor built into the counter so if you miss a tag, when you're placing the customer's bag on the counter it beeps! Stores should really think about that one. Particularly if the store has no actual barriers.

Out of thousands of transactions, people are going to miss a tag eventually, particularly if exhausted, or run off their feet. Cashiers are only human and what's quite common is having two tags on the one thing by accident so when one is taken off, nobody goes looking for more. Just like it's easy to miss asking 1 out of hundreds of people for their clubcard. However, staff initially should be trained better, I totally agree. Some have only a vague idea when new about taking sales at all, never mind tags. Also no excuse for not taking a tag off when presented with the receipt- that is the height of bad customer service.


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## Eithneangela (30 Dec 2011)

+1. Agree that shops should have a facility to check for tags before handing over the paid-for goods. My local Heatons has one at the counter area and the staff just have to wave the bag in front of it before handing over to the customer.


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