# purchase of software on the cheap?



## Unregistered (7 Apr 2005)

We have a small business would like to get computerised 

is there anyway of clubbing together with other people in the trade (different sole traders or whatever) and buying software with multiple licences as some sort of cooperative or similar

could one become a member or associate or some body to obtain discounts 

have been onto county enterprise board not much help there

i am a carprenter by trade fitted kitchens etc. so am looking into packages which ex vat come in at 3k+ never mind needing office suite and the likes of tas books !!! and laptop .... is there anyway of easing the big outlay 


Thanks


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## extopia (7 Apr 2005)

It's simple enough really -- if the price of the software exceeds its usefulness to you, it's not worth buying. If it IS worth buying, go ahead and buy it. If the cost is too great to meet from your existing resources, talk to the bank manager (or to the software vendor).

I have never heard of getting cheaper software in the manner you describe. Some software packages are available at reduced prices to students (so called "academic versions") but generally the license forbids you from using them commercially in such instances.

Best of luck.


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## ClubMan (7 Apr 2005)

Whatever about specialist packages where there may be little or no alternative to the market leader, bear in mind that there are many cheap/free alternatives to other commonly used packages available which do the job just as well or sometimes even better! See this topic for more info.


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## sim (8 Apr 2005)

Ireland ironically has one of the highest software piracy rates considering its position in the worldwide development market.  Be aware if you are buying PC from computer shop is that if they come with a software bundle that you are getting the disks,license etc. This was a common proble a few years back where PC vendors packaged their machines with the same software! Whilst certain packages can be easily sourced (pirate copies)(but not advised!) specialist software is usually best bought legit as the help desk/tech support is critical and most come with either some expiry date which requires validation to continue.


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## ClubMan (8 Apr 2005)

sim said:
			
		

> Ireland ironically has one of the highest software piracy rates considering its position in the worldwide development market. Be aware if you are buying PC from computer shop is that if they come with a software bundle that you are getting the disks,license etc. This was a common proble a few years back where PC vendors packaged their machines with the same software! Whilst certain packages can be easily sourced (pirate copies)(but not advised!) specialist software is usually best bought legit as the help desk/tech support is critical and most come with either some expiry date which requires validation to continue.



Unfortunately even with new hardware into whose (often high) prices the cost of the installed operating system and application software has been subsumed one often doesn't even get original installation never mind recovery media. This is an old link but unfortunately some of the practices persist to this day. I agree with the advice about acquiring all software legitimately (even if it's "free" some form of license usually still applies) and obtaining specialist software, and support if required, from the most appropriate source but I would strongly urge people to check out alternatives to many of the arguably overpriced, bloatware, flakey packages that are considered de facto requirements, as there are often cheaper, better, more streamlined and more stable substitutes out there for those who look!


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## jhegarty (8 Apr 2005)

Unregistered said:
			
		

> never mind needing office suit




some programs have a free (open source) alternate. The new open office is about 90% a good as the latest ms office , but its 100% cheaper... 

what other programs are you looking at getting , there may be a free alternate for most of them...


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## Chieftain (8 Apr 2005)

Depending on what your looking for OpenSource is the way to go.

www.openoffice.org is a pretty fine replacement for Microsoft Office.

A good place to look for opensource software is http://sourceforge.net/


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## Unregistered (8 Apr 2005)

*open source*

i am not looking for an illegal way of acquiring software 

it is not unusual that on can obtain trade discounts if one is affiliated to a particular body ... i just wondered if same was available for software if not should it be ??  



the particular package im interested in is articad would any body know of an alternative opensource package for designing kitchens


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## shipibo (8 Apr 2005)

No affiliations in software industry , only different licencing agreements, as you are buying for small industry (SOHO), you pay full lash.


You say software is ARTICAD
[broken link removed]

This is a vendor modified CAD package, and highly unlikely to be in opensource community, you could get variants of AUTOCAD etc...


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## ClubMan (8 Apr 2005)

*Re: open source*



			
				Unregistered said:
			
		

> i am not looking for an illegal way of acquiring software



Not sure if there's some confusion here but free/open source software is not illegal software and the sources mentioned above are in no way dodgy. There is no need for most people to buy stuff like _Microsoft Office_ and the like when there are perfectly good free alternatives available (such as _OpenOffice_) which will meet most peoples' needs.


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## Capaill (8 Apr 2005)

I would second Clubman's and other's recommendations re Opensource alternatives.  However bear in mind what your support requirements may be and what interoperability you may require amongst your different packages.  For example Articad may only work with specific packages.  

It may be worthwhile in contacting a local IT consultant who may be able to best advise you on what you need.  The up front investment of getting expert advise may save you money and heartache in the long run.  You could club together with a number of similar businesses with the same requirements and share the cost of the consultant.  If you do decide on this route, make sure that the consultant you approach is totally independent and has no vested interests in what he/she recommends.

Alternatively if you or your collegues knows of someone who works in IT they may advise you as a nixer.

C


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## shipibo (8 Apr 2005)

ArtiCAD is kitchen / bathroom specific software, would not be available on opensource community


Costs 3000 - 4500 , and licencing is restricted to one node, best advice is contact ARTICAD , tell them your bus. requirements, and ask them if LITE version will suffice, also ask what spec. hardware the app will require, and what OS it runs on.

Have you experience using CAD apps ???


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## ClubMan (8 Apr 2005)

crumdub12 said:
			
		

> ArtiCAD is kitchen / bathroom specific software, would not be available on opensource community



I think we all realise that but (a) there may be similar free/open source alternatives available (although perhaps not for something this specialised) and (b) most offices will require a lot of other software (e.g. _Office _style package, email, _PDF_ tools etc.) for which there are perfectly usable free/open source alternatives. The point above about total cost of ownership/training/familiarity with existing popular packages etc. is pertinent too. However for many jobs the move to alternative free/open source packages need not be that traumatic.


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## AKA (8 Apr 2005)

You should be able to get a laptop for under a grand.  Look at the warranty on it...depending on cost of laptop might be working upgrading to 3 yr option.

Have a laptop here and the motherboard went on it last wk...just a wk before the warranty ran out.  Wouldn't have been worth replacing if it wasn't covered by the warranty.

What type of kitchen design package have you looked at? Can you get an evaluation to see if it meets your needs...most companies do this...esp with software that costs 3K.  Make sure you get at least 512Mb RAM on the laptop.  A 1Gb if you can stretch to it...depending on the type of processing the kitchen design package requires.  The minimum and recommended amount of RAM should be specified for the software.  Ask the provider what they recommend.

Won't you be able to write off the cost of this hardware and software over the next couple of years?

PDF writer: check out http://www.pdf995.com/

You'll usually get Microsoft Works with the laptop.  You'll probably need Excel and Access but this depends on what you are doing...evaluate the alternative opensource versions.  See if this will meet your needs.  I'm not sure what the compatability issues are with the open source products when you send files to other customers.  At the moment you can get Microsoft Office 2003 Basic when purchasing a laptop for €169 with Dell.  This will give you Excel.  Check out the comparisons of different versions of Office at 

http://www1.euro.dell.com/content/topics/topic.aspx/emea/topics/products/windows/ms_web_files?c=ie&cs=iedhs1&l=en&s=dhs&~lt=popup

Good free basic graphics tool:  www.ifranview.com

Another option would be to have a look at what's available in PC world...will give you some ideas of what's avail...software and hardware tends to be a bit pricier there...buying online can be considerably cheaper.  They do offer a 12 month interest free option on some items but the items tend to be pricier there so it's not always the best option.

A printer will set you back €129 or so if you go for the inkjet multifunction (printer / scanner / photocopier) option.  I'd recommend going for the single colour cartridges...more cost effective...as if you use up all the blue ink all you have to do is replace the blue cartridge & not the whole colour cartridge even tho the magenta and yellow parts of it haven't been used.  Always look at the cost of the cartridges for the printer in question and see if compatibles are available.

The cost of the hardware has come down a lot in the last 5 years...so it's really the design package that's the issue here.  Start off with what you need and you can add as you go on.

Best of luck.


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## z107 (8 Apr 2005)

Here are a couple of try before you buy design packages:

Kitchen designs for everyone ($30):
[broken link removed]

Floor plan design suite ($39.95):
http://www.imsisoft.com/prodinfo.asp?t=1&mcid=244&cid=164507

Free trial version of payroll software (I'm affiliated with Payback)
[broken link removed]

They are a fraction of the price you were looking for, so I don't know if they'd be up to the job. Surely worth a look anyway.


 --------------------------------
www.payback.ie
Irish Payroll Software


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## ubiquitous (9 Apr 2005)

If you are going to be depending on particular software for your business, you are much better off to bite the bullet, buy the established and reliable product that you know and trust, and build the cost of it into your pricing. Same goes when you buy hardware, or indeed any other asset. Otherwise every salesman in the country would be driving a 1987 Bluebird.


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## ClubMan (9 Apr 2005)

I agree in not cutting corners but the point is that many free/open source packages are just as good if not better (more stable, more fully featured) than commercial packages that cost much more while maintaining largely compatible user interfaces. I agree that this might be more applicable to "commodity" software (such as general office productivity suites etc.) and hardare rather than specialised "vertical" application software (such as tax/bookeeping packages, specialised _CAD _packages etc.) and hardware.


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## z107 (9 Apr 2005)

> If you are going to be depending on particular software for your business, you are much better off to bite the bullet, buy the established and reliable product that you know and trust, and build the cost of it into your pricing. Same goes when you buy hardware, or indeed any other asset.


 This is not what I would do. If everyone took this stance, competition would be completelystifled. There are many superb software packages out there, which aren't the established product. Should people dismiss these products then?

The company I to work for always bought Dell hardware, because it was established etc. Then after a bad experience we shopped around and went with a smaller Irish hardware seller. Now we get higher quality hardware, and much better service at about the same price as Dell.

For example, which of the following should you go with?
Internet Explorer - established.
Firefox - small market share.

 Eircom - established
Smart - Fast growing market share

 For software, try it out first, and then make a decision. If there is no trial version, question why.

--------------------------------
www.payback.ie
Irish Payroll Software


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## ubiquitous (11 Apr 2005)

There are plenty of obvious alternatives to Dell and to eircom. In specific business sectors such as fitted kitchen design, there are usually a lot less - usually one or two major market leaders, some smaller established competitors and a number of unproven alternatives. 

I am not saying that people should automatically go for the market leader in every case. However, if a high proportion of kitchen designers are happy using articard, then chances are that it is a good, reliable product. There is no such assurance if one opts for an unproven alternative. The chances of $30 product offering comparable efficiency, productivity and reliability as a €3,000+ package are remote in the extreme. Again I go back to the example of cars. It is possible to buy a car for €100 in this country. Why do most people spend between 50-300 times this amount when they buy a car?


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## ClubMan (11 Apr 2005)

ubiquitous said:
			
		

> Again I go back to the example of cars. It is possible to buy a car for €100 in this country. Why do most people spend between 50-300 times this amount when they buy a car?



This comparison is not valid in my opinion. A car costing €100 will presumably be used if not a banger. The same does not apply to software. You can get brand new, perfectly usable, non pre-owned software which is as good as, if not better than, the de facto market leader packages for a variety of prices including free/open source packages for precisely €0. In addition few people spend money on software to flaunt as status symbols/penis substitutes.


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## ubiquitous (11 Apr 2005)

> You can get brand new, perfectly usable, non pre-owned software which is as good as, if not better than, the de facto market leader packages for a variety of prices including free/open source packages for precisely €0.



This is not proven, by any matter or means, for technical, industry-specific software such as articad.


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## ClubMan (11 Apr 2005)

As I mentioned several times already I was referring to "horizontal"/commodity type applications, such as office/productivity suites, as opposed to "vertical"/specialised/niche applications.


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## ubiquitous (11 Apr 2005)

why then did you choose to selectively rebut my most recent post which addressed the issue of whether kitchen designers should use a product such as articad, and never touched upon the issues surrounding commodity-type applications?


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## ClubMan (11 Apr 2005)

I thought that you were talking about software in general. On re-reading your post I see that you were referring to the specialist software specifically. Sorry about that. I still think that the car analogy is meaningless though.


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## ubiquitous (11 Apr 2005)

Fair enough.


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## z107 (11 Apr 2005)

> There are plenty of obvious alternatives to Dell and to eircom. In specific business sectors such as fitted kitchen design, there are usually a lot less - usually one or two major market leaders, some smaller established competitors and a number of unproven alternatives.
> 
> I am not saying that people should automatically go for the market leader in every case.


What would be wrong with even trying out the 'unproven alternatives'? Some companies will give you a better deal for unproven software. If no one buys the unproven product, then there will never be any new products on the market! I would suggest try before you buy, and maybe save a couple a grand.



> However, if a high proportion of kitchen designers are happy using articard, then chances are that it is a good, reliable product. There is no such assurance if one opts for an unproven alternative. The chances of $30 product offering comparable efficiency, productivity and reliability as a €3,000+ package are remote in the extreme.


No. I can't see that this is correct. I've witnessed first hand where companies use software which isn't good, or reliable, but the product still might be the market leader. In most cases the product has simply been around longer.

Sometimes you're paying €3000+ for the salesperson.


 --------------------------------
www.payback.ie
Irish Payroll Software


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## jhegarty (11 Apr 2005)

cost of trying out an open source alternate to see if it does what you want : €0.... try it out , like it use it , don't like it pay the $???? the commerical product costs....i think thats all i need to say...


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## ubiquitous (13 Apr 2005)

In any real-life business situation, there are obvious time and efficiency costs in installing software, learning how to use it (and more particularly how to use it correctly) and how to integrate it into existing procedures and processes without interrupting customer service. The cost of the software can be a high multiple of its purchase price.


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## Unregistered (18 Apr 2005)

Unregistered said:
			
		

> i am a carprenter by trade fitted kitchens etc. so am looking into packages which ex vat come in at 3k+ never mind needing office suite and the likes of tas books !!! and laptop .... is there anyway of easing the big outlay
> 
> Thanks



I could sort out a carpenter with no IT skills in three hours to produce invoices, quotes, VAT etc.  If you in Dublin or south east interested and have half an hour to spare for one to one demo contact me at davidoco@fastmail.fm.

Cost no more than 300 euro with virtually 24 hour support.


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