# The Emigration thread



## z107 (1 Jun 2011)

So I heard today of another friend emigrating. It seems that the people who are leaving are those with potential. Wealth and job producing people.

I'm wondering how many people are considering making the leap? I've devised a scale:
0: Very happy in Ireland. No thoughts of leaving.
1: Content in Ireland, but have thought about leaving.
2: I'll wait and see what new taxes are brought in, and when it gets too severe I'll probably leave
3: Strongly considering leaving. I'm doing research into it.
4: Made plans already and am emigrating over the next few months.
5: Already left.

(I'm between 2 and 3 at the moment.)


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## Marion (1 Jun 2011)

Many talented people have always left. Some return

Nothing new here!

Marion


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## horusd (1 Jun 2011)

This is a vote right? I'm between 0/1.But you might consider "I can't leave because..." as an option too. Have looked at living abroad and might in the future, but entering a final year of a new degree course, so I can't/won't leave until that's complete. Have to say tho things would need to get pretty bad to make me want to leave. I like living here.


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## Wishes (1 Jun 2011)

3

I'm working in a dead end job with no prospects whatsoever and steeped in debt.  Things for me have become so bad that I was on the verge of calling the SVP the other day so emigration is the only way forward for me.


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## Protocol (1 Jun 2011)

0.


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## enoxy (1 Jun 2011)

Have the Back to work enterprise allowance paid to me until next summer and the kids start in for their free pre-school year this autumn so no incentive to go while the govt subsidises our lifestyle for another year.

Might up sticks when all the welfare goodies run out by Autumn 2012 if no improvement in next year or so. What a nightmare this country is to live in....


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## bullbars (2 Jun 2011)

I'm a number 5 unfortunately.


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## burger1979 (2 Jun 2011)

You might want to include what paces people have emigrated to/are thinking of going to for points 3/4/5. I'm in catagory 1. I have done the travel for a year thing to the opposite side of the world and loved it and have the memories. But the memories pull at the heart strings and get the mind thinking..........until of course i get hit with another mortgage payment then its back to earth with a bang....


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## truthseeker (2 Jun 2011)

2.

Not so much on the 'what taxes are brought in' but more on the lines of 'how much worse things get generally'.

Ive just been made redundant, so Im assessing my options going forward, I dont know how much of a future exists in this country. Ive already said goodbye to 5 or 6 people gone to other countries (mostly Australia) - all professionals.


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## mf1 (2 Jun 2011)

There is also a double zero base. 

Those of us of a certain age where because of roots, family, friends, little or no personal debt and work, emigration is unlikely to ever be on the cards. Who would prefer if things were better here but are prepared to do what it takes to get to an end result. 

mf


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## bullbars (2 Jun 2011)

One thing I've noticed is a lot of familys emigrating are doing so on the basis of never returning rather than a 3-5 year stint. I've contacted old colleagues to see if they would join me but the majority said if they were moving they were looking at Canada & Australia and the move would be permanent.


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## Chris (2 Jun 2011)

I would say I am a 2.7. I have done substantial research into my options and have been in contact with friends and former colleagues who are now living abroad. I am employed and my job is reasonably safe, so my main concern is taxation (income, VAT, DIRT and CGT). If it wasn't for my one year old daughter I believe we would already be a 5. Having a baby is also impacting where we are looking to go, as we want to be in a position where my wife doesn't have to work to make the transition easier. We have narrowed things down to Hong Kong and Switzerland. From a standard of living point of view and income and taxation, both are about the same, but the latter is the favourite from a distance to home point of view and the skiing.


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## Firefly (2 Jun 2011)

Chris said:


> We have narrowed things down to Hong Kong and Switzerland. From a standard of living point of view and income and taxation, both are about the same, but the latter is the favourite from a distance to home point of view and the skiing.



http://www.economist.com/node/18289282 

I'm a 2 but Mrs F is a 0 so that means we are "very happy in Ireland. No thoughts of leaving"


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## JP1234 (2 Jun 2011)

I am somewhere between a 1 and 2. My husband has mooted the idea of going to Australia, there is a demand for his profession and we are just about young enough but I don't think I could face such a distance. As it is he still has a job which seems to be reasonably secure but we are classic middle income earners getting the brunt of the hits. I have seen for myself in my last job people who have never worked a day having higher weekly incomes than us when taking into account all their benefits. It sickens me that our leaders have created a situation where it barely pays to work and I don't blame any of our talented citizens for leaving.

It saddens me that my son, who is sitting his LC next week,has already made the decision to leave after college. There just seems to be no hope for our young anymore.


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## Ancutza (2 Jun 2011)

5.  and an extremely happy 5 at that.  60 Euros return to Dublin all taxes included in less than 3 hours means I could do it every weekend if I so wished.  Beautiful weather, beautiful lifestyle, beautiful everything come to think of it.


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## Firefly (2 Jun 2011)

Ancutza said:


> 5.  and an extremely happy 5 at that.  60 Euros return to Dublin all taxes included in less than 3 hours means I could do it every weekend if I so wished.  Beautiful weather, beautiful lifestyle, beautiful everything come to think of it.




Hi Ancutza,

I note you are living in Romania...just wondering how things are holding up over there as the following from Wikipedia sounds very familiar. Any tax increases/austerity measures? 

During the 2000s, Romania enjoyed one of the highest economic growth  rates in Europe and has been referred to as "the Tiger of Eastern  Europe."[97] This has been accompanied by a significant improvement in human development.[98] The country has been successful in reducing internal poverty and establishing a functional democracy.[99] However, Romania's development suffered a major setback during the late-2000s recession as a large gross domestic product contraction and a large budget deficit in 2009 led to Romania borrowing heavily,[100] eventually becoming the largest debitor to the International Monetary Fund in 2010.[101]


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## shnaek (2 Jun 2011)

2. I'd love to stay here, but our governing bodies drive me nuts. Both my wife and I are working, and in reality our jobs are as secure as any private sector job is. But there are better options available, and the government keep doing more to push us out of here. A shame really, because if we go we aint coming back. Though I do love the country, but Ireland is just like a shakespearean tragedy. A country of waisted potential.


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## PaddyW (2 Jun 2011)

I'm somewhere between 1 & 3.


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## Ancutza (2 Jun 2011)

> I note you are living in Romania...just wondering how things are holding  up over there as the following from Wikipedia sounds very familiar. Any  tax increases/austerity measures?



Yes, of course there have been tax increases (the one which hit my business the hardest was an increase in the VAT rate from 19% to 24%) and there have been many austerity measures introduced too but I still haven't locked the door on my holiday home in over 10 years, the country continually throws up new opportunities for business, we have a very nice quality of life and a good standard of living.  The kids are happy as pigs in pooh.

I would never, ever get hung-up on official 'figures' released by the romanian state.  There are, after all, 2 economies.  The official one and the other one which buzzes along in the background spawning a middle class.  Bit like Ireland in the later '80s and very like Italy, Spain, France and the other 'latin' countries.


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## Complainer (2 Jun 2011)

Ancutza said:


> the other one which buzzes along in the background spawning a middle class.  Bit like Ireland in the later '80s and very like Italy, Spain, France and the other 'latin' countries.


You mean the one that doesn't pay tax?


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## Mpsox (2 Jun 2011)

0

but then, I did emigrate for 10 years and came back and have no intention of going again. grass is not always green on the other side


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## Ancutza (2 Jun 2011)

> You mean the one that doesn't pay tax?



Is there any other type which buzzes along in the background?


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## horusd (2 Jun 2011)

Chris said:


> I would say I am a* 2.7*. ....


 
Chris trust you to to set up your own scale! What's the difference between 2.7 & 2.8 ? More snow on the ski slopes? Only kiddin


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## AgathaC (2 Jun 2011)

umop3p!sdn said:


> So I heard today of another friend emigrating. It seems that the people who are leaving are those with potential. Wealth and job producing people.


Ah yes, the "brightest and best" ....................


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## Chris (3 Jun 2011)

horusd said:


> Chris trust you to to set up your own scale! What's the difference between 2.7 & 2.8 ? More snow on the ski slopes? Only kiddin



Hehe. Actually I should be a bit more pedantic or accurate and say that it's 2.75, just to show that I'm not quite a 3 yet, but very close.


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## z107 (3 Jun 2011)

> Ah yes, the "brightest and best" ....................


Not necessarily.

Just those that have the best chance of getting Ireland out of the mire. People who want to work and better themselves and are willing to take risks. They mightn't be the brightest or the best.

Unfortunately, they are being held back by the Irish government and their dire, defeatist policies.


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## Guest105 (4 Jun 2011)

No 5 -  London, second time emigrating only this time it's better.


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## daithi (5 Jun 2011)

*emigration thread*

On a good day it's 0, on a not so good day(of which there will be more to come) its a 4...

daithi


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## callybags (5 Jun 2011)

0.   Always


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## casiopea (6 Jun 2011)

Chris said:


> I would say I am a 2.7. I have done substantial research into my options and have been in contact with friends and former colleagues who are now living abroad. I am employed and my job is reasonably safe, so my main concern is taxation (income, VAT, DIRT and CGT). If it wasn't for my one year old daughter I believe we would already be a 5. Having a baby is also impacting where we are looking to go, as we want to be in a position where my wife doesn't have to work to make the transition easier. We have narrowed things down to Hong Kong and Switzerland. From a standard of living point of view and income and taxation, both are about the same, but the latter is the favourite from a distance to home point of view and the skiing.



Hi Chris,
Im in Zurich (with 2 children) so if you and your wife have any questions feel free to pm me. I lurk a fair bit here.

I suppose given that Im in Switzerland I should be a "5" but I actually left during the boom and not because of the recession. So I dont really count.


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## Teatime (6 Jun 2011)

Yesterday we borrowed *€52,000,000* to keep the country going. Today we will borrow a further *€52,000,000 *and tomorrow we will borrow *€52,000,000* more. At least the people emigrating do not have to pay this back.


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## thedaras (6 Jun 2011)

Teatime said:


> Yesterday we borrowed *€52,000,000* to keep the country going. Today we will borrow a further *€52,000,000 *and tomorrow we will borrow *€52,000,000* more. At least the people emigrating do not have to pay this back.



Indeed,and this means less people here who pay tax, who have to carry the burden..
I would go if I could..and will go when I can.


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## mcaul (6 Jun 2011)

Don't forget that even at the very height of the "boom" 35,000 Irish people were emigrating each year.
I believe emigration is not just good, but great for Ireland, many will return and create employment and almost all of the others will make frequent trips back bribing Ames strain of tourist income.
The only negative part is that a lot of current emigration is forced by peoples current situation, but this is short-term hopefully


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## Guest105 (6 Jun 2011)

mcaul said:


> Don't forget that even at the very height of the "boom" 35,000 Irish people were emigrating each year.
> I believe emigration is not just good, but great for Ireland, many will return and create employment and almost all of the others will make frequent trips back bribing Ames strain of tourist income.
> The only negative part is that a lot of current emigration is forced by peoples current situation, but this is short-term hopefully


 

I would be inclined to disagree with you. Ireland down through the generations has had a history of emigration that is until the celtic tiger emerged.  Now we all know even that was a false boom built on unsustained levels of easy credit. Emigration is not good for Ireland because the vast majority of those now leaving will never be able to return.


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## terrontress (7 Jun 2011)

5.

Unfortunately I still own an apartment in North County Dublin, purchased in 2005.

I would love to wash my hands of Ireland entirely but I have a whole world of nonsense there waiting for me including keeping tenants happy, NPPR, tax returns, property management company, mortgage shortfall, negative equity etc. etc.

The people who have the right idea are those who leave for good with no ties other than friends and families. How I wish I could say that.


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## Mpsox (7 Jun 2011)

Teatime said:


> Yesterday we borrowed *€52,000,000* to keep the country going. Today we will borrow a further *€52,000,000 *and tomorrow we will borrow *€52,000,000* more. At least the people emigrating do not have to pay this back.


 
Nope, instead, their taxes will be used to fund budget deficits in whatever country they may be living in, (eg USA), or bailing out their banks (eg UK and RBS etc). Don't forget the 26% rise in water rates in parts of Australia this year on top of 18% last year and 23% the year before that.

I do have a concern that people are being naive in thinking it is better anywhere else but Ireland. Maybe it is but every country has it's issues and people need to be go into emigration with their eyes wide open


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## Bronte (8 Jun 2011)

5, but left during the last recession.  Had always planned to go to the USA when qualified but changed by meeting my OH.  Glad we're in a modern European country with great healthcare, infrastructure, schools, social services.  We can afford to come home, in fact as each day goes by it becomes more affordable but our lifestyle and choices are too good and the healthcare system in Ireland in particular scares the living daylights out of me.  Plus everyone is telling us we'd be mad to come home.  Love Ireland, love being Irish and planning to send the kids back to secondary school there (boarding) so that they too feel Irish.  But with the way FG are handling things (same old, same old) not so sure.  Lack of hope.  Voting for hope and no hope.  (Vincent Browne in the SBP article last Sunday is a case in point)


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## bullbars (8 Jun 2011)

terrontress said:


> 5.
> 
> 
> The people who have the right idea are those who leave for good with no ties other than friends and families. How I wish I could say that.


 
its not as easy as it sounds.


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## terrontress (8 Jun 2011)

bullbars said:


> its not as easy as it sounds.


 
I'm living proof it isn't.

I am from NI originally. My biggest mistake was immigration in 2000. But hindsight has 20/20 vision.


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## shnaek (8 Jun 2011)

This is the first survey (in IT) that reflects what I am seeing on the ground:

http://www.siliconrepublic.com/careers-centre/item/22099-72pc-of-it-professionals-in/

The question for the government is how to keep the talent and experience here. This is a real problem that they need to consider. People are leaving not just because they can't get a job, but because they are being punished for staying here.


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## Howitzer (8 Jun 2011)

PaddyW said:


> I'm somewhere between 1 & 3.


So, 2?

I'm 1.5.


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## Brendan Burgess (8 Jun 2011)

Good article on the topic from Fergus O'Rourke on The Journal.ie 

http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/col...nd-we-have-to-stop-being-hysterical-about-it/


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## ali (8 Jun 2011)

Bronte said:


> 5, but left during the last recession. Had always planned to go to the USA when qualified but changed by meeting my OH. Glad we're in a modern European country with great healthcare, infrastructure, schools, social services. We can afford to come home, in fact as each day goes by it becomes more affordable but our lifestyle and choices are too good and the healthcare system in Ireland in particular scares the living daylights out of me. Plus everyone is telling us we'd be mad to come home. Love Ireland, love being Irish and planning to send the kids back to secondary school there (boarding) so that they too feel Irish. But with the way FG are handling things (same old, same old) not so sure. Lack of hope. Voting for hope and no hope. (Vincent Browne in the SBP article last Sunday is a case in point)


 
Where are you living Bronte, and can I come?

A.


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## thedaras (8 Jun 2011)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Good article on the topic from Fergus O'Rourke on The Journal.ie
> 
> http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/col...nd-we-have-to-stop-being-hysterical-about-it/



Just read that ,and it is excellent.

What I have found is that so many young couples had to move very far away from where they were brought up in Ireland ,that they dont have family living around the corner anyway..of course on special occasions or in an emergency they can go the distance,but with money being so tight this may not even be an option anymore ..
My brother moved to the USA in the 80s, we see more of him and now his grown up children than we do of one or two of our relations who live on the other side of the country.
Its not the end of the world ,just a different one..


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## Purple (8 Jun 2011)

1
Things are ok for me financially and both my wife and I have businesses here. 
That said if I did leave it wouldn't bother me too much though my wife wouldn't leave her parents. 
I'd be happy enough moving to the USA. I could get a job there and Mrs. Purple would have no problems at all getting a job there. We'd definitely be better off financially but there's more to life than money as long as you have enough to get by and anyway, there's no reason to go.

A friend of mine was asked by his employer to move to one of their 4 major offices. One is in Atlanta, one in London, one in Geneva and one in Beirut. He worked in their Atlanta office so didn’t want to go back there and so he said if he had to move he’d go to London. He also said that if he didn’t have children he’s go to Beirut before living in Geneva. I’ve never been there so I can’t comment (though I’ve visited Zurich and it’s lovely).


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## micamaca (11 Jun 2011)

5
But I always planned to leave Ireland. I've shared a house with people who grew up in mainland Europe and maybe it opened my horizons a bit. I like many things about where we live...gorgeous German town, weather is much better without being too hot, Germans are nice and cheerful here. I work in an international company where I can meet up with a few Irish head-the-balls every so often and with loads of other interesting characters too. I'm well paid for what I do and we get good value for money both in rent and living costs where we live. The downside is I have to commute and I'm not using my degree which I left work to get in Ireland.  Also, I'm not sure if health care is much better, if the queue at the GP is anything to go by. But I get to go cycling and hiking every weekend, I live near vineyards which are beautiful to go walking by in the evening and we can go visit many places/countries by car and I don't have to be petrified by Ryanair's check-in staff to do it. A big plus for me  
I was lucky to get the opportunity to move and although it's not perfect, it's pretty damn good. I miss my good friends of course, but they were busy with their new families anyway and we all lived so far apart it was impossible to see them on a regular basis anyway. 
I suppose it depends on your perspective of what you're leaving behind and what you stand to gain and what your choices are. Also, I think it would be much harder to leave if you have elderly parents in Ireland. Mine, God rest them, are already gone to their reward, so that's not something I ever had to face. And I'm glad I didn't have to...but then I wish I could have shared this wonderful place with them because they would have loved it. 
I wish Ireland and the Irish well though, follow the news daily and keep hoping things will get better soon. But not to come home...we're happy abroad and coming back to visit for now.


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## RoyRover (12 Jun 2011)

umop3p!sdn said:


> So I heard today of another friend emigrating. It seems that the people who are leaving are those with potential. Wealth and job producing people.
> 
> I'm wondering how many people are considering making the leap? I've devised a scale:
> 0: Very happy in Ireland. No thoughts of leaving.
> ...


 
I am at 3.

I lived and worked in the UK for about 5 years in the late 90's and would strongly think about going back to London.

In the UK, there is far less of a "woe is me" mentality, and people just forge ahead without expecting the government to pay them a couple of hundred euro a week to sit at home watching the telly, nor do they accept that government employees should be wildly overpaid as they are here.


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