# Are Gardai/Customs/Revenue entitled to impound a rented UK registered vehicle.



## noelc (3 Jul 2008)

Are the Gardai / Customs / Revenue entitled to impound a UK registered vehicle that I am renting and driving in Ireland. The car has been rented from a UK based company. I have documentation to prove a rental agreement is in place and the the ownership of the vehicle resides with the UK based rental company. I have been told that VRT must be paid on the car as it is being used in Ireland by an Irish resident. I have been told that unless VRT is paid that the vehicle will be impounded. 

I considered posting this message in the Car section of the site. However, I am more interested in the legal rights that the state has in this regard.


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## mathepac (3 Jul 2008)

*Re: Impounding Car*



noelc said:


> ..I have been told that VRT must be paid on the car as it is being used in Ireland by an Irish resident. I have been told that unless VRT is paid that the vehicle will be impounded...


Sounds odd. Who told you - was it Revenue, the Guards?

Would it not be simpler to lease an Irish-registered car?


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## noelc (3 Jul 2008)

*Re: Impounding Car*

Guards stopped me and said that they know I am resident locally and that I have to pay VRT register the car. Were not in the least bit interested in my rental agreement or the ownership of the car. They told me that if the car was not registered in the next seven days they would impound the vehicle.


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## bond-007 (3 Jul 2008)

*Re: Impounding Car*

How can you re-register a car you do not own? The Gardaí are talking rubbish tbh. 
I assume that you will be returning the car to the UK in the near future.


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## extopia (3 Jul 2008)

*Re: Impounding Car*

Why would you rent a UK registered car (or any car, for that matter) for long-term use in Ireland? Is it an attempt to subvert the VRT laws or is it on the level?


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## suzie (3 Jul 2008)

*Re: Impounding Car*

Something similar happened to a guy on the gerry ryan show this morning. Cant remember all the details:

1) Uk reg jag
2) owned by his UK company
3) not sure of his residency, but commuted between IRL & UK

customs impounded the car to Naas station, but young lad turned up the next day with barrister mum and got it straight back. No apology from the customs, so gerry was to chase them on his behave etc..didnt hear the outcome...

S


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## noelc (3 Jul 2008)

*Re: Impounding Car*

I know the owner of the rental company in the UK and he has done me a decent deal for a rolling month to month rental. 

I have been reading other posts online re cars being impounded due to no VRT being paid and can see why one might think this is a VRT avoidance tactic.

I am renting it becuase it makes sense from a cash flow and car depreciation standpoint. There is no denying that not owning and having to pay VRT on the car is also a cash saving.

I was unaware of that feature on G.Ryan

Does anyone on this forum have the knowledge to advise if the guards can impound the vehicle? I cannot register the car as I am not the registered owner. 

The car is currently taxed for UK roads and my Irish insurance company have confirmed in writing that my insurance is valid.


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## bond-007 (3 Jul 2008)

*Re: Impounding Car*



extopia said:


> Why would you rent a UK registered car (or any car, for that matter) for long-term use in Ireland? Is it an attempt to subvert the VRT laws or is it on the level.


How is it an attempt to avoid VRT?


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## bond-007 (3 Jul 2008)

*Re: Impounding Car*



noelc said:


> The car is currently taxed for UK roads and my Irish insurance company have confirmed in writing that my insurance is valid.


Noel, have you Irish insurance on the car or a UK policy?


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## noelc (3 Jul 2008)

*Re: Impounding Car*

Irish insurance; does this matter?


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## extopia (3 Jul 2008)

*Re: Impounding Car*



bond-007 said:


> How is it an attempt to avoid VRT?



I suppose the guards are questioning whether this is an import masquerading as a rental. 

Maybe someone knows the exact law on this?


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## mathepac (3 Jul 2008)

*Re: Impounding Car*



noelc said:


> Irish insurance; does this matter?


On that basis I believe a case could be argued that its VRT evasion. UK owned and registered, Irish insurance, long-term use here by an Irish resident?


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## bond-007 (3 Jul 2008)

*Re: Impounding Car*



noelc said:


> Irish insurance; does this matter?


That could be what is colouring the Gardaís opinion. They would see a genuine renter as having a uk policy of insurance. 

An experts opinion is needed.


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## noelc (3 Jul 2008)

*Re: Impounding Car*

True; I was hoping for an expert opinion. Never been in trouble with the law; over 40 years of age. Paid all my taxes!

If it was the case that the Irish insurance was an issue I am sure the rental company could have it insured in the UK for driving in Ireland.

My concern is that the Gardai are only doing their job; that is, they are enforcing the rules as laid down by the vehicle registration office. They never even asked if the car was insured.

By the way; I did not know that tax avoidance was a crime. Tax evasion - yes - but avoidance is not; indeed it is an industry in itself in Ireland!


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## Complainer (3 Jul 2008)

*Re: Impounding Car*



noelc said:


> Irish insurance; does this matter?



How can you insure a car that you dont own?


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## extopia (4 Jul 2008)

*Re: Impounding Car*



noelc said:


> By the way; I did not know that tax avoidance was a crime.



No one said it is. But what you're doing may well be interpreted as evasion, not avoidance.


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## bond-007 (4 Jul 2008)

*Re: Impounding Car*

What I suspect will happen is you will be getting a visit from the Customs and Excise shortly.


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## bond-007 (4 Jul 2008)

*Re: Impounding Car*



Complainer said:


> How can you insure a car that you dont own?


It is done all the time. Nothing unusual about it.


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## deadwood (4 Jul 2008)

*Re: Impounding Car*

I take it you're living and working in the republic? I see the angle you're coming from, but people have tried this one for years.

Loads of people have rental/lease agreements or work/postal/"residential addresses" in the U.K. and try to drive U.K regd. cars in the republic but if our friends in the revenue can show that you are resident in the state, they can seize the car. ("commuting" to the U.K. a few times to Hollyhead or the North won't cut it)

You can't register a car you don't own, right enough, but _they_ have the car!

If you're insured here too, that might reinforce _their_ case.

Nice try, but I think they have you.


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## extopia (4 Jul 2008)

*Re: Impounding Car*

The bottom line is that Revenue, Customs and Excise, and the Garda are not stupid.


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## noelc (4 Jul 2008)

*Re: Impounding Car*



deadwood said:


> You can't register a car you don't own, right enough, but _they_ have the car!
> 
> If you're insured here too, that might reinforce _their_ case.
> 
> Nice try, but I think they have you.


 
When you say thay they "have me" are you implying that I am doing something illegal? Can you be more specific? I did not think what I was doing was illegal.


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## ang1170 (4 Jul 2008)

*Re: Impounding Car*

noelc, enough of the fake innocence, please!

From the Revenue Web site: "All motor vehicles in the State, other than those brought in temporarily by visitors, must be registered with the Revenue Commissioners".

I would have thought that was clear enough.

For full details, see: [broken link removed]

This information is freely available.


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## jhegarty (4 Jul 2008)

*Re: Impounding Car*

I presume the rental company also has insurance on this vehicle ?


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## Complainer (4 Jul 2008)

*Re: Impounding Car*



bond-007 said:


> It is done all the time. Nothing unusual about it.


Isn't this a breach of the principle of [broken link removed]? How can you insure something that you down own? If the car is burnt out, how does make sense that the insurer pays the renter and not the owner?


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## bond-007 (4 Jul 2008)

*Re: Impounding Car*

Hire purchase agreements are good example of a non owner insuring a car. Also if you ever take a loaner car from a garage they will insist you transfer your insurance on to a car that you do not own. Most car rental firms in Ireland are the same, they insist you transfer your insurance onto their car.


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## noelc (4 Jul 2008)

*Re: Impounding Car*



ang1170 said:


> noelc, enough of the fake innocence, please!
> 
> From the Revenue Web site: "All motor vehicles in the State, other than those brought in temporarily by visitors, must be registered with the Revenue Commissioners".
> 
> This information is freely available.




Apologies for faking innocence; you are right. Given what you have quoted from the revenue site it is clear that I am in breach of this law.

What are my options?


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## csirl (4 Jul 2008)

*Re: Impounding Car*

Yes, the car can be seized for non payment of VRT. If a car is brought to Ireland to be used by an Irish resident, then it must be registered in Ireland full stop. Who owns it etc. is no concern of the Gardai/Revenue. If a UK rental company wants to rent cars to Irish residents, then they have an obligation to adhere to Irish law and register and insure these cars in Ireland - same as any other rental company renting cars in Ireland.

You essentially have 2 options:

1. Get the rental company to register and insure the car in Ireland (which I'm sure they will be relunctant to do).

2. Return it to the rental company and hire a car that is registered in Ireland from an Irish based company.


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## Complainer (4 Jul 2008)

*Re: Impounding Car*



bond-007 said:


> Hire purchase agreements are good example of a non owner insuring a car. Also if you ever take a loaner car from a garage they will insist you transfer your insurance on to a car that you do not own. Most car rental firms in Ireland are the same, they insist you transfer your insurance onto their car.



Thanks for the clarification. I can see the sense in this for the short-term loan options. In a HP situation, does the driver take out 3rd party insurance and the owner takes out fire/theft?

The OP is lucky that Revenue gave him 7 days grace. Most car rental companies don't allow cross-border movements. Was this a bona fides rental from a rental company, or a little side deal between friends?


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## bond-007 (4 Jul 2008)

*Re: Impounding Car*

I think option 2 is the only viable one for you.


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## noelc (4 Jul 2008)

*Re: Impounding Car*



bond-007 said:


> I think option 2 is the only viable one for you.


 
Does anyone legal have a view on the following European Court of Justice ruling?

In Case C-451/99​_Cura Anlagen_, the European Court of Justice ruled that a motor vehicle
registration tax can be levied on lease vehicles brought in from another Member State,* but*
*that the Member State in which the vehicle is being used must take into account how long the **vehicle will be used within its borders *and must allow the user a reasonable amount of time to take care of the necessary paperwork.
The Commission is verifying the practical arrangements adopted by the Member States to​
take these rulings on board.


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## csirl (4 Jul 2008)

*Re: Impounding Car*



> In Case C-451/99
> _Cura Anlagen_, the European Court of Justice ruled that a motor vehicle
> registration tax can be levied on lease vehicles brought in from another Member State,* but*
> *that the Member State in which the vehicle is being used must take into account how long the **vehicle will be used within its borders *and must allow the user a reasonable amount of time to take care of the necessary paperwork.
> ...


 
It appears that this ruling was followed - the OP was given 7 days to sort it out.

The part you highlighted applies to e.g. tourists, who may rent a car for 2-3 weeks and drive around another EU country rather than long term users of rented cars.


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## noelc (4 Jul 2008)

*Re: Impounding Car*

I have been examining this ruling. 

The European Court of Justice has ruled that in the case of a lease of a vehicle by a company in one member state to a company/consumer in another member state that this consitutes a service and as such is given certain protections.

The court has rules that what is at issue here is a service (the user of the asset - the car) and not the asset itelf (the car).

The court has further rules that the government of the state in which the car is being used do have a right to require that the car is registered in that state. However, the VRT charge to the consumer to register the car has to take into account the length of the lease of the vehicle. 

For example, if the state decides that the VRT payable is €1000 over the normal life of the vehicle the state can only impose a pro-rata proportion of this charge to allow the vehicle to be registered for the length of the lease.

Simply put; if I lease a vehicle fron the UK for 1 year the following is how the Irish Government is supposed to manage the supply of this service.

1. Can ask me to register the vehicle for use in Ireland
2. I can demonstrate that the vehicle is on a defined length lease of, say 12 months
3. VRO says normal VRT for the car is €1000
4. Court of Justice has ruled that this normal VRT rate assumes a life of 10 years
5. VRT payable by me to have the car registered for use on Irish roads for the 12 month contract would be €100 - 1/10th of the VRT 
6. Irish government must register the car if they want to collect this VRT and allow me to see out the lease of the vehicle.

Any comments?


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## noelc (4 Jul 2008)

*Re: Impounding Car*



csirl said:


> It appears that this ruling was followed - the OP was given 7 days to sort it out.
> 
> The part you highlighted applies to e.g. tourists, who may rent a car for 2-3 weeks and drive around another EU country rather than long term users of rented cars.


 

I do  not think that the case/ruling referred to tourists renting cars; futher research on this shows:

*2. Registration tax on leased cars* 
Vehicles leased and registered in other Member States by persons resident in Finland may be used only for seven days in Finland, after which the car must be registered in Finland and the whole amount of the tax is due. 

Finnish legislation is not in conformity with Article 49 of the EC Treaty as it constitutes an obstacle to the freedom to provide services: it impedes leasing companies established in other Member States from offering their services to persons resident in Finland.

In its judgment of 21 Mars 2002 in case C-451/99 (Cura Anlagen), the Court of Justice took the view that an obligation to register a vehicle in the Member State of residence is not in breach, as such, of the provisions on the freedom to provide services.

However, the vehicle user must be granted a period of time within which to register the vehicle in the Member State of residence, which should be not so short as to be considered an unjustified obstacle to that freedom (in the case in question, a period of three days was considered contrary to the freedom rules enshrined in the EC Treaty).

*<<This is the important part....>>*

_The Court also ruled that, for the purposes of complying with the provisions of the Treaty, registration tax on a leased vehicle in the Member State of residence must be proportionate to the period during which the vehicle will be registered and used in that Member State of residence_

<<Extract from web-site [broken link removed] who are the umbrella body of which he Irish AA is a member>>


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## noelc (4 Jul 2008)

*Re: Impounding Car*

Anyone out there wish to disagree with my findings?


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## ang1170 (4 Jul 2008)

*Re: Impounding Car*

It's pretty clear to most people who look at it that the whole VRT regime is against both the spirit and letter of much EU law.

Unless and until someone takes a case though, you haven't a leg to stand on: quoting any EU directive or legislation is a waste of time. Customs, the Revenue and the Gardai are there to implement and enforce Irish law, and you are clealy in breach of that.

I'm totally on your side on this: the tax is an abomination, but as I say unless and until someone challenges it, we're stuck with it...


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## Guest117 (5 Jul 2008)

*Re: Impounding Car*



extopia said:


> the Garda are not stupid.


 
Bit of a sweeping statement there extopia - I have certainly happened on some pretty thick members from time to time LOL !!


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## MugsGame (5 Jul 2008)

Reading the initial posts in the thread I was about to post that this was cross-border provision of a service, and the rental company could have a case under EU law. But I don't think this helps in the immediate situation - Irish law is quite clear.


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## ajapale (5 Jul 2008)

noelc said:


> I considered posting this message in the Car section of the site. However, I am more interested in the legal rights that the state has in this regard.



All car related issues  performance, environmental, financial and legal are dealt with in the cars section. If we dont do it this way then the AAL section would become hugh and unweildy.

Thanks
aj


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## noelc (5 Jul 2008)

MugsGame said:


> Reading the initial posts in the thread I was about to pot that this was cross-border provision of a service, and the rental company could have a case under EU law. But I don't think this helps in the immediate situation - Irish law is quite clear.


 
Thanks for the comments. No it does not help in the immediate situation. 

However, I do believe that as a citizen of the EU I should have the right to use the service of a company of another member state without fear of financial loss, fine and/or conviction.

This is another example of the Irish a-la-carte attitude to Europe - ue it when it's suits us and ignore it when we like.


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## mathepac (5 Jul 2008)

noelc said:


> ...
> 
> This is another example of the Irish a-la-carte attitude to Europe - ue it when it's suits us and ignore it when we like.


A bit like our fellow "Europeans" - Brits, Germans, Finns, French, Spaniards, etc.


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## weejasy77 (5 Jul 2008)

Did anyone hear the Gerry Ryan show during the week?

Some woman originally from Dublin now living in the north was down visiting family in Dublin.  She took her Northern reg car to the shops and was stopped by customs asked for ID and that.  The customs officer refused to believe that she was from the North even after seeing her UK license and insisted on seeing a utility bill or esle she would seize the car.

Gerry then got someone on from the Revenue to see the legality behind it.  He apologized for the heavy handed officer in this case but then went on to state that anyone moving over from Northern Ireland to Republic of Ireland had to re-register their car the next working day yet Eastern Europeans were given a year to do this because of some European law about freedom of movement and the right to seek work in a member state or something.

That can't be right... can it?


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## noelc (5 Jul 2008)

weejasy77 said:


> Did anyone hear the Gerry Ryan show during the week?
> 
> Some woman originally from Dublin now living in the north was down visiting family in Dublin. She took her Northern reg car to the shops and was stopped by customs asked for ID and that. The customs officer refused to believe that she was from the North even after seeing her UK license and insisted on seeing a utility bill or esle she would seize the car.
> 
> ...


 
I agree that this seems to discriminate against residents of UK & NI when compared to the treatment of Eastern Europeans.


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## ang1170 (5 Jul 2008)

uiop said:


> I agree here too but if VRT is abolished, how would it affect income tax to compensate ?.


 
This is no justification for and unfair and illegal (in the European context) tax. Sure, to raise the funds, other taxes would have to be raised, but at least the other taxes have the semblence of fairness about them, are not illegal.



uiop said:


> I'm pretty sure that being well off most politicians, civil servants and their mates at the Galway races tent would have probably paid vrt at some point themselves and been caught for this tax too. More so than someone on the lower rungs of the income ladder.


 
Everyone who owns or runs a car is caught by VRT. Cars are hardly a luxury, especially given the great public transport system we have.


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## daviehug (5 Jul 2008)

Noelc

I think you are on a loser here.  I was listening to Gerry Ryan show and they were saying there is a fine on top of the VRT for getting caught.  Have you thought about this.  We all hate VRT.  But if it is the law that an Irish resident can't drive a foreign car don't complain if they seize your car.

d


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## Complainer (6 Jul 2008)

noelc said:


> However, I do believe that as a citizen of the EU I should have the right to use the service of a company of another member state without fear of financial loss, fine and/or conviction.
> 
> This is another example of the Irish a-la-carte attitude to Europe - ue it when it's suits us and ignore it when we like.


Noel 

I don't think you are sharing the full facts with readers on this forum. If you are looking for help/information/guidance/opinion, it is not unreasonable to expect you to open up with more background.

Is the a 'bona fide' rental, or just a little scam dreamt up in the pub between friends. Does the renter rent other cars, or just to you? Is your Irish insurance company aware that you are renting the car?


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## doolittle (6 Jul 2008)

It is not illegal to have the car in ireland on uk plates, but  a Irish resdient cannot  drive it, It will be taken off you.


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## noelc (6 Jul 2008)

Complainer said:


> Noel
> 
> I don't think you are sharing the full facts with readers on this forum. If you are looking for help/information/guidance/opinion, it is not unreasonable to expect you to open up with more background.
> 
> Is the a 'bona fide' rental, or just a little scam dreamt up in the pub between friends. Does the renter rent other cars, or just to you? Is your Irish insurance company aware that you are renting the car?


 
It is a bone fide rental. Sure; as I know someone in a senior position within the company I did get a good deal. My insurance company are not aware that I am renting the car; I just asked them to switch the insurance from my old car to this one - did not think this would be an issue. I gave them the UK reg. number and that was that.

I will be returning the car to the UK next week as it is illegal for me to be driving it. End of story. I am not into breaking the law. 

However, the issue has got me annoyed and hence the research on EU law I posted here last week. From what I have ascertained I believe that the Irish government are contravening the EU law with regard to the free movement of services. A car rental is considered a service by the EU.


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## ang1170 (7 Jul 2008)

noelc said:


> However, the issue has got me annoyed and hence the research on EU law I posted here last week. From what I have ascertained I believe that the Irish government are contravening the EU law with regard to the free movement of services. A car rental is considered a service by the EU.


 
It's an interesting and new (to me) angle on how it's illegal in European terms OK. There are other angles though: just think a minute about the comment above that it's OK for a UK resident to drive a UK car here, but not an Irish resident. 

As I said, though: unless and until someone takes a case, it'll persist.


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## Complainer (7 Jul 2008)

noelc said:


> It is a bone fide rental. Sure; as I know someone in a senior position within the company I did get a good deal. My insurance company are not aware that I am renting the car; I just asked them to switch the insurance from my old car to this one - did not think this would be an issue. I gave them the UK reg. number and that was that.


Thanks for the clarification. I'm surprised that they didn't ask about the ownership of the car, but there you go.


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## mathepac (7 Jul 2008)

Complainer said:


> Thanks for the clarification. I'm surprised that they didn't ask about the ownership of the car, but there you go.


Based on the OP's information they already knew he was an Irish resident and had more than likely established the provenance of the "veehickle".


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## Persius (8 Jul 2008)

Interesting about the Finnish EU case, but I don't think it will help you. It implies that you do have to register the car in IRL, and pay proportionate VRT. I can't imagine any UK rental company being willing to allow their cars be essentially "exported" and registered in a foreign jurisdiction.


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## peteb (8 Jul 2008)

noelc said:


> It is a bone fide rental. Sure; as I know someone in a senior position within the company I did get a good deal. My insurance company are not aware that I am renting the car; I just asked them to switch the insurance from my old car to this one - did not think this would be an issue. I gave them the UK reg. number and that was that.


 
They normally do this on the assumption that the vehicle will be re-registered on irish plates, so that people importing their own car could be covered but when the policy falls due for renewal it would cause you issues.  They also would assume you own the car - not telling that you dont constitutes a material fact.  They ask on the original proposal form whether the car is owned/registered in your name so if there is any change you are obliged to inform them.  If there was a crash and the car was written off you would have to produce the VLC and this would become a problem as you are not the registered owner of the vehicle.  And tbh they wouldnt pay out!


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## g1g (8 Jul 2008)

weejasy77 said:


> Eastern Europeans were given a year to do this because of some European law about freedom of movement and the right to seek work in a member state or something.
> 
> That can't be right... can it?


 

oh don't get me started!!!! The amount of eastern european cars in an estate near me is shocking and they have all been here for way more than one year and not re-registered. No tax or insurance and some have admitted they only drive locally so they don't get fined.


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## csirl (8 Jul 2008)

> oh don't get me started!!!! The amount of eastern european cars in an estate near me is shocking and they have all been here for way more than one year and not re-registered. No tax or insurance and some have admitted they only drive locally so they don't get fined.


 
Why dont you report them - should be easy pickings for customs.


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## g1g (8 Jul 2008)

I mentioned it to a guard before and he said there was nothing they could do regarding registering. They say they have only been here a few months and then they could leave in the morning. Reported no nct disks on 3 irish registered cars owned by foreign nationals near me recently as they were parking outside my house blocking me for reversing from my driveway and guards wouldn't do anything about it.


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## bond-007 (8 Jul 2008)

There is a guy down the road from me driving an English reg car insured in Ireland with FBD. It has an Irish insurance disk on display. It has UK road tax and the owner is a UK national and lives in Ireland. 

Customs were not interested. Guess it is who you know.


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## Complainer (9 Jul 2008)

bond-007 said:


> Guess it is who you know.


Ah, now I get it.


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## niceoneted (9 Jul 2008)

NoelC,

Case they would have is - if I am reading everything correctly,- you live and work in Ireland, you rent a car from a uk car hire company on a long term basis, you not the hire compnay pay for the insurance through an Irish company, the car has a Uk reg plate and on top of all that it happens to be a friend of yours that is renting you the car. Sounds to me like you have a possible hire purchase agreement with your friend!! 
Put yourself in a judges position what would you think, - person in front of you is trying to pull a very fast one I would think! 

I have been hiring cars for years always while on hols and I have never had to get my own insurance -that is a bit underhand. as an aside Insurance companies need to tighten up and ensure the person being insured is the owner. 

Good luck with customs!


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## bond-007 (10 Jul 2008)

Ted, if you ever try to hire a car from small time operators in Ireland they will insist that you transfer your insurance over to their car. All rates quoted exclude insurance. When you tell them that you have no insurance and you want to take out theirs the rate quoted will double.


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