# Can Solicitor visit elderly person in nursing home when no one present?



## amc123 (5 Oct 2012)

Hi, 

Just in brief.

The situation is an elderly parent in a nursing home with one sibling living in the family home.  There is a documented history of elderly abuse from that sibling hence major reason for elderly parent to be safely in care home.  

This sibling is very concerned about the position re the will and the family home and has made attempts to exert pressure to change will.  The options of obtaining some form of income from the family home will be required at some stage to fund care.  

Now the question... two solicitors appeared at the nursing home and were left in to visit the elderly relative.  There was no one else present. The parent is confused but did say they asked if there was a desire to change the will.  It is assumed that the sibling in the home arranged this visit. 

My question is... would this be an ethical situation?  Should there have been consultation with other siblings or medical carers in advance of such a visit ? 

Should there have been somebody present with the elderly parent during the visit ?  Should they have attempted to find out if the parent actually wanted the visit? 

Maybe it is all OK but at the very least two solicitors visiting an elderly person in a home seems a bit intimidating. 

Thanks in advance for any opinions


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## Bronte (5 Oct 2012)

amc123 said:


> . Should there have been consulation with other siblings or medical carers in advance of such a visit ?


 
Why would they need to be consulted, one is entitled to have a solicitor visit if one wants to make or change a will.  

Is the elderly person suffering from any mental illness?


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## Nutso (5 Oct 2012)

From reading the OP, it seems that the elderly person did not request the presence of the solicitor.  If it was my parent, I would be unhappy with the situation.  They are free to make whatever decisions they want but should not be coerced into anything.


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## mf1 (5 Oct 2012)

There is quite clearly sooooooooooooooooooooo much going on here in the background. 

What are the chances of two, not just one, but two, solicitors rocking up  to Ye Olde Nursing Home ( I imagine they had cloaks and daggers also!) and sneaking in to persuade someone to change their will. 

Here is the solution. Have the elderly person made a Ward of Court. End of story. 

mf


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## Vanilla (5 Oct 2012)

amc123 said:


> Parent is confused but did say they asked if there was a desire to change the will.


 
So what was their reply?

Did they change their will?


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## Slim (5 Oct 2012)

This is a tricky and sensitive issue. 

Who is looking after the interests of the parent, i.e paying the bills etc.?That person should have a relationship with the nursing home and be able to assess or have assessed the parent's capacity to carry out legal actions such as changing a will etc. 

A word with the nursing home on unsupervised visits by solicitors might be appropriate.


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## amc123 (5 Oct 2012)

Hi the parent says they weren't asked to sign anything but is of the age and generation that has a slight fear of officialdom so was disturbed by the visit.  A different sibling is managing all finances paying bills etc but dont feel there is a case for making the parent a ward as the parent is mentally competant.  The issue is that the parent is just coming out of a situation where they were mentally and physically abused by the sibling living in the home and this abuse has been documented through the courts but that is a whole other saga of many years of blood sweat and tears to get the parent out of the abusive situation and into the safety of a nursing home. There is no question but that the parent should have the ability to make a will leaving everything to the dogs and cats if so desired the other siblings want nothing other than to pay the element of the nursing home that needs to be paid and then be secure in the knowledge that the parent is safe and secure in the nursing home, however the issue is that the parent is still influenced by years of being controlled by the sibling and that sibling's only concern now is that the family home will be used to cover the nursing home.  They are still sending all household bills to the parent for payment and the parent is still having them paid but the other siblings were following the parents wishes so as not to upset the parent.  it is a whole mess but I suppose I am questioning the ethics and professionalism of the solicitors in the situation.  They are well aware of the history and have raised concerns about inappropriate pressure being put on the parent by the particular sibling in the past. There has been a suggestion (through a source connected with the firm off the record) that the abusive sibling has been contacting then morning noon and night saying that the parent wants to change their will so while they are aware of the situation maybe they made the visit in order to make a judgement call as to whether the parent did want to do this or not. Honestly it just seemed inappropriate to me.


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## Tintagel (5 Oct 2012)

In my situation there is one sibling who has complete control over my father. This person has made my father totally dependent on her. We have discovered that she is also trying to get him to change his will and to leave money to the various grandchildren. This has been done without consultation to the other beneficiaries of my fathers will. Her husband is named as my father's executor also. I cannot believe that he is not aware of this attempt by his wife to change my father's will.
A person does not have to be abusive to be manipulative.


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## STEINER (5 Oct 2012)

This is a very difficult situation, given the influence of the sibling living in the parent's house.  Unfortunately the parent has been abused so much that she/he is afraid of the consequences of kicking the sibling out of the house.  It would be great to sell the house, and throw that degenerate sibling out, but even 100k might fund only 2 years of care.

The solicitors went to parent on instruction from sibling.  They probably realised quickly that parent had no interest in meeting them or changing will. I would complain to the solicitors or law society if they visited again as their first visit was conclusive as to parent's wishes.


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## amc123 (5 Oct 2012)

Yes I guess so luckily the parent is in the home on the fair deal scheme so has to pay 5% of the value of their assets for three years and 80% pension.  There is enough cash for about a year of this and then the idea was to sell the house and provide another smaller property for the sibling or alternatively have the sibling pay rent but neither situation will happen easily.  Sometimes when you think something is wrong you want someone to agree it is wrong and you are not going mad yourself.  Anyway it might be worth the other siblings expressing concern to the firm at the manner in which it was done. Thanks for the opinions.


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## amc123 (5 Oct 2012)

Sorry now for posting again but situation has become stranger.  Home has security pin code access which is given to family to have access when they wish.  Home now say that the solicitors arrived at the home used the pin codes and entered the building unannounced.  They knew their way to the room and proceeded to the room without consulting any of the medical staff.  They were found there half an hour later by a staff member who considered the parent to be very distressed about the visit so asked who they were.  They refused to tell the staff member who they were and and left immediately leaving the parent in a very distressed state.  This is so upsetting for the rest of the family and the home are also unhappy.  It seems that the sibling gave them the access information as it is more than certain that the parent neither knows this information or has the capacity to give such information.  Surely this is completely unprofessional and unethical.  The firm have no professional relationship with the sibling so I cannot see what they have to gain by acting like this.  Is there a code of ethics or should we contact the law society to find out if this behaviour is acceptable ?


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## mercman (5 Oct 2012)

Would it not be best to regularize this situation, sit down and talk to the parent. Work out what she wishes to do with his/her assets and then have another solicitor with their doctor, who the parent might be familiar with and make and write a new will. Make sure it is dated. So basically the greed of others and the other solicitors can be over-ruled. This could put an end to the dishonesty and abuse of the other parties.


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## amc123 (5 Oct 2012)

That's a good idea Mercman thanks. Other family not thinking straight today. I guess the real upset is that the abusive sibling can find a way to continue the abuse when they thought they had the parent removed from it. There will have to be some movement on the house to fund the fair deal payment but all other family are completely emotionally drained from the years and I am talking up to ten years that it has taken to find the present solution that it was being left alone at the moment while they tried to recover but it seems like many things in life the problem isn't gone away it has just evolved to new measures of abuse. Family are so angry about the solicitors conduct not thinking rationally! Tkx again.


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## huskerdu (5 Oct 2012)

I can understand that you are all angry and emotionally drained. 

There are two completely separate issues here. 

1) Ensure that your parent has access to unbiased legal advice and that they feel that they made their will without pressure.
If it is possible to prove who gave them the nursing home access code then 
a new code should be issued and whoever handed it out in contravention of the 
rules should not be given the new one, 

2) Deal with the behaviour of the solicitors. I dont know the rules of the Law Society but the scenario that you have outlined sounds unethical and if I were you, I would make a complaint the the Law society. 

Do you know who paid the solicitors for the visit. 
Either 

1) someone paid them to visit an elderly person in a nursing home, and enabled them to enter the room in a way that is only applicable to family members, and ask them about changing their will   or

2) Someone enabled them and encouraged them to make this visit in the expectation of getting the elderly person to pay them to make out a will. 


Either of these scenarios sounds very wrong. I would persue it if i were you.

Good luck and i hope your parent is fine,


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## mercman (5 Oct 2012)

huskerdu said:


> Either of these scenarios sounds very wrong. I would pursue it if I were you.



Good points made huskerdu. But OP talk to the other normal family members and act as soon as possible. The last thing you want is a challenge concerning compos mantis. A decent GP should assist you in these grounds and even a half decent solicitor will assist. 

The law concerning a will is that the last dated will of a deceased person is the one that is valid. Nothing else.


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## Tintagel (6 Oct 2012)

It appears that the abusive sibling is living in the family home. She is fearful that her home is going to be taken away from her and is probably trying to protect herself. Does she have a guarantee that another house will be provided for her out of the proceeds of the sale of the main house or is it a case that the other siblings are now looking for their inheritance up front?
If the house is sold and there is a lump of money in the account and and no house does the fairdeal scheme still work?


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## amc123 (6 Oct 2012)

Honestly rest of family wants nothing. Sibling doesn't listen and has been asked to get a legal representative so that the situation can be explained. There really is totally no interest in the will whatsoever they would be ok if property left to sibling. All well aware sibling will need a home which is why they didn't take the option to have the fair deal payment come out of proceeds of sale after death and instead are trying to pay. Only human though and unwilling to let the abusive sibling away with making no contribution when they have never paid their own way in life and in fact has some of the parents funds under their control but parent can't or won't remember what happened to the funds. Solicitors firm stating they did nothing wrong. Don't imagine any solicitor will admit they were wrong though. Family is most certainly not going to pay for their time so I'd say they'll have fun trying to get from sibling! It's worth a letter to law society anyway although only for the therapy value to the family as I doubt it will achieve anything.


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## Tintagel (6 Oct 2012)

If the family home is sold will the Fair Deal scheme still apply?


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## amc123 (7 Oct 2012)

Yes fair deal scheme means 5% assets payable annually. Cap of three yrs on including PPR for the assessment so I imagine if PPR was sold the 5% would continue to be payable.


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## amc123 (7 Oct 2012)

mf1 said:


> There is quite clearly sooooooooooooooooooooo much going on here in the background.
> 
> What are the chances of two, not just one, but two, solicitors rocking up  to Ye Olde Nursing Home ( I imagine they had cloaks and daggers also!) and sneaking in to persuade someone to change their will.
> 
> ...



Yes I know it sounds bizarre but it happened there were two and they did sneak in using codes they had no right to have. It seems so bizarre to me which is why I am asking about the ethics and professional guidelines pertaining to the situation. No cloaks and daggers tho or at least I haven't been told but maybe the CCTV should be checked again!!!
Honestly don't wish to go down ward of court etc. After what the parent has suffered priority is to build up health and give back their dignity and feel that going down this road would strip them of their dignity again. Reason for post is to question solicitors actions no interest in what happens with will other siblings would be quite happy to let abusive sibling have house regardless of what's in will - siblings don't know- just don't want any dealings with the individual. Annoyed that the bullying of parent can continue when it was thought that parent was removed from situation.


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## mercman (7 Oct 2012)

amc123 said:


> Reason for post is to question solicitors actions no interest in what happens with will other siblings would be quite happy to let abusive sibling have house regardless of what's in will



This entire debacle is beginning to stink. As previously posted, the making of a new will, witnessed by a competent solicitor and in the presence of a medic, ensuring the donor is of sound mind is important to all concerned. IMO the reason for the two solicitors arriving at the home was to ensure that anything that was signed was witnessed by a non related party.


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## amc123 (7 Oct 2012)

Tkx Mercman but could I ask why it is NB to make a new will. 

Know that current will was drafted 10 or 15 yrs ago. No idea whatsoever what it contains but genuinely do not care. For lots of reasons other siblings might actually prefer home to be left to the abusive sibling so that sibling can't bug them for maintenance repairs etc and they can have as little to do with that person also. 

Also a feeling silly I know that for all that went on in home that there's a bad karma attached to anything to do with it! Other siblings really don't want anything so don't care if the will is changed only care about the way the solicitor acted. 

Not sure even in spite of this they could convince parent to get a new solicitor as there is a long history with the principal of the firm - no longer involved. 

I am just totally frustrated that they can act like this and will probably bear no consequences. It is the sort of thing that gives the profession a bad name. 

Maybe the solution is for the other siblings to encourage the parent to change the will also and go for the fair deal scheme loan and leave the abusive sibling deal with it when revenue come looking for the money!


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## SoylentGreen (7 Oct 2012)

To label someone as an abuser is a terrible thing to do. I assume that this sibling was the one left to look after the elderly parent. Not an easy job. Some elderly people can play all members of a family for their own selfish gain or on the other hand want to please everyone so different family members are told different things.
I am surprised that nobody knows what's in the will, why not?


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## mercman (7 Oct 2012)

amc123 said:


> Tkx Mercman but could I ask why it is NB to make a new will.



What is a NB ?? On the subject of making a new will. this can be done as often as one wishes. It simply must be witnessed and time dated. The definition of a will should be examined in a dictionary. On doing so, you will note that it is to prescribe one's final wishes.

It does appear that a number of your siblings don't really care what is going on. Easy to say now, but I bet if they find nothing has been willed to them, the trouble will start. As the saying goes 'Where there's a will, there's a relative.


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## amc123 (7 Oct 2012)

SoylentGreen said:


> To label someone as an abuser is a terrible thing to do. I assume that this sibling was the one left to look after the elderly parent. Not an easy job. Some elderly people can play all members of a family for their own selfish gain or on the other hand want to please everyone so different family members are told different things.
> I am surprised that nobody knows what's in the will, why not?



Actually a very com


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## Vanilla (7 Oct 2012)

The solicitors were asked to call on the basis that this person wanted to make/change their will. They asked her if she wanted to and when she said she didn't, they left. There were two presumably because if she had in fact wanted to make/change a will two would have been needed as witnesses. I see no wrong doing here. 

The fact that they had the code to the nursing home- so what? Solicitors call regularly to nursing homes for this very reason, to make wills, and local solicitors often have the codes. I have the code for some local nursing homes. There's nothing cloak and dagger about calling to a nursing home in broad daylight, having been asked to do so?

In relation to the fair deals scheme, you say she's already in it. So why sell the house, when the loan will be capped after the first three years?


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## Bronte (8 Oct 2012)

amc123 said:


> Yes I know it sounds bizarre but it happened there were two and they did sneak in using codes they had no right to have. It seems so bizarre to me which is why I am asking about the ethics and professional guidelines pertaining to the situation. No cloaks and daggers tho or at least I haven't been told but maybe the CCTV should be checked again!!!.


 
This is ridiculous, the solicitors were given the code, were invited to the home to make a will and did not sneak in as you put it.  It is not at all bizzare or unethical.  What exactly have the two solicitors done wrong?  People need to make wills all the time but more particulary when elderly, infirm and sorting their affairs when in a nursing home.  

If as you state none of the rest of the family is worried about the family home then so what if the parent had made a will leaving the home to the abusive sibling.  You've stated that the parent is mentally competant, is able and willing to pay all the bills for said sibling but still complains to her other children about a solicitors visit where nothing happened, no will was made etc.


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## SoylentGreen (8 Oct 2012)

​


Bronte said:


> If as you state none of the rest of the family is worried about the family home then so what if the parent had made a will leaving the home to the abusive sibling.


 
This is what I was thinking. Nobody cares or knows what's in the will. So if it is changed what difference will it make?

*"For lots of reasons other siblings might actually prefer home to be left to the abusive sibling so that sibling can't bug them for maintenance repairs etc and they can have as little to do with that person also" *

I thought that the mother was paying all the bills?  Nobody wants anything to do with this sibling (isolation/Bullying). So why would the sibling approach the other family members for maintenance, repairs etc


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## amc123 (8 Oct 2012)

Ok a different opinion that's interesting and that why I asked here as we are trying to find out what ethical guidance that solicitors adhere to. As a non solicitor it seems completely unprofessional and unethical to me.  Their client did not request a visit.  They were asked to visit by a third party.  They did not check if their client was medically fit for a visit.  They are more than aware of the history of the situation and have in the past expressed concern to family members about the treatment of the parent as they would have witnessed this both on the phone and in person.  If they had just contacted family and said they wanted to arrange this visit it would have been arranged with the help of nursing staff.  Anyway not much we can do other than arrange to complain.  As I said before it just really feels that the abuser found a way to continue the abuse and intimidation when we all thought the parent was safe from that and maybe it is a kneejerk reaction as we feel the solicitors should have known better. 

Solvent green I am not sure from your post if you are saying that other family are intimidating and bullying the sibling in question and I know I should ignore the criticism but personally in life i have learned the hard way to avoid contact with anyone who directs physical and verbal abuse towards me I also feel the need to protect my family from anyone that could hurt them and this has even involved having to have the guards warn this person to not intimidate teenagers coming from school.  i fully appreciate your sentiments and you clearly may be coming from an experience of being a carer and being put upon by other family but this is so not the situation here.

Thanks for the opinions.


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## amc123 (8 Oct 2012)

Bronte said:


> This is ridiculous, the solicitors were given the code, were invited to the home to make a will and did not sneak in as you put it. It is not at all bizzare or unethical. What exactly have the two solicitors done wrong? People need to make wills all the time but more particulary when elderly, infirm and sorting their affairs when in a nursing home.
> 
> If as you state none of the rest of the family is worried about the family home then so what if the parent had made a will leaving the home to the abusive sibling. You've stated that the parent is mentally competant, is able and willing to pay all the bills for said sibling but still complains to her other children about a solicitors visit where nothing happened, no will was made etc.


 
The point is that they were not invited to the home or given the code by their client but by a third party.  Surely they should ensure that their client wants them to visit.  If nothing else would they not be concerned about sho is going to pay for their time ?


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## amc123 (8 Oct 2012)

Vanilla said:


> The solicitors were asked to call on the basis that this person wanted to make/change their will. They asked her if she wanted to and when she said she didn't, they left. There were two presumably because if she had in fact wanted to make/change a will two would have been needed as witnesses. I see no wrong doing here.
> 
> The fact that they had the code to the nursing home- so what? Solicitors call regularly to nursing homes for this very reason, to make wills, and local solicitors often have the codes. I have the code for some local nursing homes. There's nothing cloak and dagger about calling to a nursing home in broad daylight, having been asked to do so?
> 
> In relation to the fair deals scheme, you say she's already in it. So why sell the house, when the loan will be capped after the first three years?


 
Some way will have to be found for the family home to cover the payment under the fair deal scheme and as I said no-one has had the energy to tackle this as a result of the emotionally draining last decade!! There are not enough funds to make the payment for the whole three years.  Nobody is thinking straight as the situation is all still very raw and people just trying to remove from the horrors and get a grip on their own lives and concentrate on their own families again. There is no clear thought process as to how that is going to be managed yet. Other family members in counselling to try to deal with the family situation.


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## Vanilla (8 Oct 2012)

A solicitor has a duty of care to attend to make a will when asked to do so. It is often a third party who is asked to make the call to a solicitor as quite often an elderly person in a nursing home doesnt have access to a phone or just simply asks someone else to make the phone call/arrangement for them. If a solicitor doesn't go to make a will when requested to do so they can be sued for negligence. So when a solicitor is phoned and told someone wants to make a will they actually HAVE to go to see them within a reasonable time. Your suggestion that a solicitor should then ask other members of the family permission to call on their own client is not realistic. A solicitor also has a duty of confidentiality. Imagine a client asking a solicitor to call to make a will and then the solicitor tells the whole family about it!

I don't think you understand the fair deals scheme either. The whole premise is that repayment can be put off until after the death of the recipient and a charge is put on their property ( capped in the case of the family home after three years). So there should be no need to sell the house to pay.


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## amc123 (8 Oct 2012)

Vanilla said:


> A solicitor has a duty of care to attend to make a will when asked to do so. It is often a third party who is asked to make the call to a solicitor as quite often an elderly person in a nursing home doesnt have access to a phone or just simply asks someone else to make the phone call/arrangement for them. If a solicitor doesn't go to make a will when requested to do so they can be sued for negligence. So when a solicitor is phoned and told someone wants to make a will they actually HAVE to go to see them within a reasonable time. Your suggestion that a solicitor should then ask other members of the family permission to call on their own client is not realistic. A solicitor also has a duty of confidentiality. Imagine a client asking a solicitor to call to make a will and then the solicitor tells the whole family about it!
> 
> I don't think you understand the fair deals scheme either. The whole premise is that repayment can be put off until after the death of the recipient and a charge is put on their property ( capped in the case of the family home after three years). So there should be no need to sell the house to pay.


 
Ok so they have to go even if they know they have already expressed concern about the person who made the request ?  I accept there would be a confidentiality issue if they ask the family but should they really enter the home in the manner in which they did ? Should they not be more above board and check with the carers about the person's health.  The parent was in a serious state of distress and got very confused about the visit and who they were.  Maybe I set too much moral store on such things.

I do know about the option to defer payment by applying for the nursing home loan however there is no guidance about what happens when there is someone living in the home.  The provision to defer payment only applies to a spouse so there was concern about the sibling living in the home which is why that option was not taken as despite everything there is a concern that the person might be forced out if they were not be willing to pay the amount due and we have not been able to find out what would happen then or who would be liable for the amount due. Presumably it is more clearcut in most situations.


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## SlurrySlump (8 Oct 2012)

amc123 said:


> . Only human though and unwilling to let the abusive sibling away with making no contribution when they have never paid their own way in life and in fact has some of the parents funds under their control but parent can't or won't remember what happened to the funds.


 
The parent can't or won't remember what happened to the funds suggests to me that the parent wants the rest of you to stop interrogating her. 

Methinks that the sibling who "has never paid their own way in life" has had a robust relationship with her mother throughout the years whilst living under the same roof.

You say that there was physical abuse. How do you know?


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## Bronco Lane (12 Oct 2012)

Why did it take 10 years to get the mother in to a nursing home if everyone was so concerned?


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## JohnJay (12 Oct 2012)

Bronco Lane said:


> Why did it take 10 years to get the mother in to a nursing home if everyone was so concerned?



 The OP asked for advice on the morals/ethics of a solicitor visiting an elderly person in a nursing home and not on the events in their family over the past 10 years. I’m sure it has been a very emotional period for all the family, and many questions have been asked. Families and the care of elderly is a mine-field and its not for any of us in an anonymous boards site to comment on how these issues were dealt with by the family.
  In my opinion, the solicitors did not act  professionally. They should have at least made themselves known to the nursing home management before visiting the patient. If they did somehow manage to get the parent to sign a new will I think the manner they used to get it signed would be questionable if it went to court.


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## Bronco Lane (13 Oct 2012)

amc123 said:


> The parent was in a serious state of distress and got very confused about the visit and who they were.


 
Is the sibling who is being called the abuser barred from visiting the nursing home?  If not I am sure that she would have discussed the visit by the solicitors with her mother.


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## IsleOfMan (16 Oct 2012)

Vanilla said:


> So what was their reply?
> 
> Did they change their will?


 
A good question. If the will was not changed then the elderly resident was able to speak for herself.


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