# Why don't we require people seeking medical treatment to have vaccination certificates?



## Brendan Burgess (22 Nov 2021)

Unvaccinated people represent a disproportionate share of those in hospital and in intensive care.

They are stopping vaccinated people getting the treatment they need - for non-Covid issues.

On balance, I would be against mandatory vaccination.   

The few people I know who have refused to be vaccinated say it's not a serious disease and they won't get it. Fine.  But if they do, let them look after themselves.  Don't let them block up our hospitals.

Brendan


----------



## odyssey06 (22 Nov 2021)

I don't know if that could be done here legally, refusal of medical treatment in that way. After all, taking drugs is illegal but if someone ends up in hospital with an overdose they are treated.

Now there might be some informal triage going on which takes that into consideration if there is a lack of ICU beds but a flat out "must have vaccine" but that's about as far as I can see it happening here.

Even in Singapore they most they did was make people pay for their ICU treatment, not refuse it.


----------



## deanne (22 Nov 2021)

Brendan, many unvaccinated people may have serious underlying conditions and maybe can't take the vaccine or have been advised not to do so, many may have had one vaccine and because of serious side effects, were advised not to take the second dose, they are classed as unvaccinated too. We do not know why , the people in ICU are not vaccinated.


----------



## Leo (22 Nov 2021)

deanne said:


> Brendan, many unvaccinated people may have serious underlying conditions and maybe can't take the vaccine or have been advised not to do so, many may have had one vaccine and because of serious side effects, were advised not to take the second dose, they are classed as unvaccinated too. We do not know why , the people in ICU are not vaccinated.


That is absolutely not true, only a very small minority of the unvaccinated are so due to underlying health issues. 

Less than 0.5% report any side-effect whatsoever, side effects like anaphylaxis that would mean they would be advised not to get the second dose have an incidence rate of 0.00001.


----------



## deanne (22 Nov 2021)

Leo said:


> That is absolutely not true, only a very small minority of the unvaccinated are so due to underlying health issues.
> 
> Less than 0.5% report any side-effect whatsoever, side effects like anaphylaxis that would mean they would be advised not to get the second dose have an incidence rate of 0.00001.


Leo, anaphylaxis is an extreme reaction. Many people have had other reactions, myocarditis, tinnitus, neurological side effects, there is a long list of probable side effects. I personally know people that this has happened to and were advised by their doctors to not take the second dose, they are in limbo land. They are not considered vaccinated and therefore excluded from normal  socializing.


----------



## Leo (22 Nov 2021)

deanne said:


> Leo, anaphylaxis is an extreme reaction. Many people have had other reactions, myocarditis, tinnitus, neurological side effects, there is a long list of probable side effects. I personally know people that this has happened to and were advised by their doctors to not take the second dose, they are in limbo land. They are not considered vaccinated and therefore excluded from normal socializing.


As I said, 0.45% report side-effects. The vast majority of those are advised it is perfectly safe to take the second vaccine. Covid vaccine side-effects are very carefully monitored, all those vaccinated are requested to report side-effects to the HPRA. The incidence rate of serious side-effects here are so small as to have no bearing whatsoever on current hospitalisation numbers. 

Who you know is completely irrelevant in the context.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney (22 Nov 2021)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Unvaccinated people represent a disproportionate share of those in hospital and in intensive care.
> 
> They are stopping vaccinated people getting the treatment they need - for non-Covid issues.
> 
> ...


Getting vaccinated is a choice and I have no issue with that,  as I said elsewhere those I know who aren't seem happy with their decision.

But unvaccinated people must accept that they must live with the consequences of their decisions and while mandatory vaccination is unpalatable for many of us it just might be the only way of finally managing "living " with Covid-19.

Vaccination is a far more efficient way of protecting general health and peoples livelihoods than restrictions.

I think we had to have mandatory vaccination in the 50s to break the TB situation.


----------



## deanne (22 Nov 2021)

Leo said:


> As I said, 0.45% report side-effects. The vast majority of those are advised it is perfectly safe to take the second vaccine. Covid vaccine side-effects are very carefully monitored, all those vaccinated are requested to report side-effects to the HPRA. The incidence rate of serious side-effects here are so small as to have no bearing whatsoever on current hospitalisation numbers.
> 
> Who you know is completely irrelevant in the context.


Leo, I know what I know and it is the truth. If you can definitely tell me the number of partially vaccinated people in ICU, I would be grateful and enlightened. Maybe, people do not report side effects to HPRA or are unaware that this facility exists.


----------



## Leo (22 Nov 2021)

deanne said:


> Leo, I know what I know and it is the truth. If you can definitely tell me the number of partially vaccinated people in ICU, I would be grateful and enlightened. Maybe, people do not report side effects to HPRA or are unaware that this facility exists.


Partially vaccinated people make up 5% of ICU admissions. This number will of course include some who suffered a secere reaction to the first dose, and many who chose not to take up the second dose even though they reported no side-effects. 

You are advised of the ability to report side-effects when being vaccinated, and the Leaflet you are handed also goes into detail on the reporting process along with the various side effects (including incidence rates). Given that only 0.45% of people are reporting symptoms, it's clear many are choosing not to report mild symptoms even though that is not discouraged. 

However, it would be extraordinary for someone having a such a severe reaction as to rule out a second dose not seeking medical advice, and that would result in their doctor reporting the reaction.


----------



## Bluefin (22 Nov 2021)

From independent today 

According to the data, 99.7pc of people aged 18 and older who live in Waterford are fully vaccinated, while 96.8pc of teenagers and children aged 12 years and above have also completed a Covid-19 vaccine course.

Don't buy the "can't get vaccinated due to medical reasons" until each county reaches the level of vaccination achieved in Waterford


----------



## deanne (22 Nov 2021)

Imagine only 5% were partially vaccinated, that's interesting. So roughly 50% were vaccinated and 50% completely unvaccinated,as per data from HSE dated 13th November. That said, 63% unvaccinated, 37% one vax, 29% breakthrough infection. That gives 66% in ICU , partially vaccinated and fully vaccinated and 63% unvaccinated. This was out of 589 people admitted to ICU.


----------



## Leo (22 Nov 2021)

deanne said:


> That said, 63% unvaccinated, 37% one vax, 29% breakthrough infection. That gives 66% in ICU , partially vaccinated and fully vaccinated and 63% unvaccinated. This was out of 589 people admitted to ICU.


Can you re-word that?


----------



## Sophrosyne (22 Nov 2021)

deanne said:


> Brendan, many unvaccinated people may have serious underlying conditions and maybe can't take the vaccine or have been advised not to do so, many may have had one vaccine and because of serious side effects, were advised not to take the second dose, they are classed as unvaccinated too. We do not know why , the people in ICU are not vaccinated.



@deanne, Brendan is referring to a cohort of people who remain unvaccinated by choice, either because of an ideological notion or no reason at all.

People who either for medical reasons cannot be vaccinated or have had adverse reactions to the vaccine, _obviously_, would not fall into that cohort.


----------



## Purple (22 Nov 2021)

Sophrosyne said:


> @deanne, Brendan is referring to a cohort of people who remain unvaccinated by choice, either because of an ideological notion or no reason at all.


Since when is being an idiot an ideology?
The technical term for that group is 'the hard of understanding'.

Symptoms include a casual relationship with reality, paranoia, a total lack of any grasp of statistics, total unfamiliarity with the concept of Confirmation Bias and the use of the phrase 'Mainstream Media' when referring to the actual Media rather than some whack-job Twitting on Twitter or posting on Fakebook.


----------



## Sophrosyne (22 Nov 2021)

I was being diplomatic.
Some "ideologies" are based on ignorance.


----------



## Purple (22 Nov 2021)

Sophrosyne said:


> I was being diplomatic.
> Some "ideologies" are based on ignorance.


Ideologies that reject fact are a bad idea.


----------



## Sophrosyne (22 Nov 2021)

Nonetheless, they exist.


----------



## deanne (22 Nov 2021)

Leo said:


> Can you re-word that?


Yes, Leo, practically the same % in ICU between April 2021 and November 2021 were as follows,i.e. 63% were unvaccinated... ...37% + 29% had one vaccine or doubled vaccinated = 66%. It's even stevens


----------



## Paul O Mahoney (22 Nov 2021)

deanne said:


> Yes, Leo, practically the same % in ICU between April 2021 and November 2021 were as follows,i.e. 63% were unvaccinated... ...37% + 29% had one vaccine or doubled vaccinated = 66%. It's even stevens


Eh percentages are meant to add to 100.
I believe the 63% includes the partially vaccinated,  did last time I looked. 

The ratio has been consistent at about 2:1 unvaccinated: vaccinated. 

As its difficult to understand your posts what point are you trying to make?


----------



## deanne (22 Nov 2021)

1 Health Protection Surveillance Centre

Vaccination status of COVID-19 cases admitted to ICU in Ireland
between April 1
st 2021 and November 13th 2021
Key points 
Between April 1st and November 13th 2021:
• 589 persons (aged 15 + years) were reported to the Health Protection Surveillance Centre (HPSC) as 
admitted to ICU with confirmed COVID-19 infection.
• 369/589 (63%) cases reported as not having received a COVID-19 vaccine or were not registered as 
vaccinated on Ireland’s national COVID-19 immunisation system (COVAX).
• 220/589 (37%) cases were reported as having received at least one dose of a COVID-19 vaccine
prior to admission to ICU. 
• 170/589 (29%) cases were vaccine breakthrough infections (see technical note)
o The median age of these cases was 67 years (range: 30 to 88 years)
 ___________________________________________________________________
Five hundred and eighty-nine persons (aged 15+ years) with confirmed COVID-19 infection were admitted to
ICU between April 1
st and November 13th 2021 and reported to the national Computerised Infectious Disease 
Reporting (CIDR) system at HPSC. Of these 589 cases, 369 (63%) were reported as not having received a COVID-
19 vaccine or were not registered as vaccinated on Ireland’s national COVID-19 immunisation system 
(COVAX) and 220 (37%) were reported as having received at least one COVID-19 vaccine prior to ICU 
admission. 
There are 170 breakthrough infections1
identified in the vaccinated cohort of COVID-19 patients admitted to
ICU between April 1st and November 13th 2021. 
Of the breakthrough infections (n=170): 
• 104 were male and 66 were female
• Median age was 67 years (range: 30 to 88 years); Mean age was 66 years 
• 165 cases (97%) were reported to have an underlying medical condition
• 66 cases (39%) were reported to have died 
• There was one admission to ICU in June, 6 in July, 39 in August, 42 in September, 57 in October, and 
25 in November


----------



## tomdublin (22 Nov 2021)

The answer to Brendan's question is that medical ethics in principle requires doctors to treat people based on need rather than perceived desert.  Smokers, the obese, the physically inactive, reckless drivers after accidents, those injured in drunken pub fights, heroin users, etc get treated at a par with "innocent" patients.  I think that's a compassionate way of doing things and it's hard to see how in the case of antivaxxers it could be done differently without opening up an ethical Pandora's box.


----------



## pablo123 (23 Nov 2021)

Strangely enough a lot of people that I work with have refused to be vaccinated but still use an E cig , They have no idea what is in that either but they still use it , For what it is worth they are blatant about a substance that they use at the weekend and also have no idea what is in it , I am referring to people in their 30,s who are fit and have no valid reason to refuse the vaccine , This is my second time getting Covid and I am fairly annoyed with them at this stage , Staying out of work seems like a paid holiday to them but they keep passing it on , I cannot report them to HR as it is their right to say no but I am at boiling point now , It is totally acceptable for people to refuse the second jab if they had a bad reaction but everyone should at least get the first one , People in their 80,s accepted it and the young people protest , Have a bit of cop on please .


----------



## IsleOfMan (23 Nov 2021)

I will have a visit to the dentist this week.  I am vaccinated.  I do not know if the dentist has been vaccinated, his staff or the person who was in the chair before me.


----------



## michaelm (23 Nov 2021)

deanne said:


> • 165 cases (97%) were reported to have an underlying medical condition


I read that report yesterday too and found it interesting that 97% of the vaccine breakthrough cases in ICU had an underlying condition.  I'd be interested to know the details of the unvaccinated in ICU . . what % had an underlying condition and what was the median and mean age, but I couldn't find such info.


----------



## RedOnion (23 Nov 2021)

michaelm said:


> I read that report yesterday too and found it interesting that 97% of the vaccine breakthrough cases in ICU had an underlying condition.  I'd be interested to know the details of the unvaccinated in ICU . . what % had an underlying condition and what was the median and mean age, but I couldn't find such info.


There's an interesting summary based on September & October admissions (so you don't have the 'noise' of admissions prior to vaccines being widely rolled out).

Unvaccinated are 7% of population, but 54% of ICU admissions with Covid. They're younger, and less have underlying health conditions 









						Is enough being done to reach the unvaccinated?
					

New statistics from the CSO give fresh insight into the vaccination status of those admitted to hospital with Covid-19, explains Mark Coughlan.




					www.rte.ie
				




The detailed statistics are here:





__





						COVID-19 Deaths and Cases, Series 36 - CSO - Central Statistics Office
					






					www.cso.ie


----------



## michaelm (23 Nov 2021)

Thanks RedOnion.  It seems that 71% of the unvaccinated in ICU during that period had an underlying condition, and the median age of unvaccinated in ICU was 52.  Interesting that half of the unvaccinated in ICU were not born in Ireland.  Perhaps the vaccine messaging could be better targeted.


----------



## Leo (23 Nov 2021)

RedOnion said:


> Unvaccinated are 7% of population, but 54% of ICU admissions with Covid. They're younger, and less have underlying health conditions


People also need to be aware that the numbers with underlying health conditions actually includes those with undiagnosed conditions and in reality covers a large proportion of our population. For example 64% of over-50s here have high-blood pressure, 56% of adults are overweight with 26% obese, how many current/ former smokers?


----------



## RedOnion (23 Nov 2021)

Leo said:


> People also need to be aware that the numbers with underlying health conditions actually includes those with undiagnosed conditions and in reality covers a large proportion of our population.


I was shocked to learn that being pregnant is classed as an underlying condition!


----------



## Paul O Mahoney (23 Nov 2021)

RedOnion said:


> I was shocked to learn that being pregnant is classed as an underlying condition!


It's the long term effects that it brings .


----------



## Leo (23 Nov 2021)

RedOnion said:


> I was shocked to learn that being pregnant is classed as an underlying condition!


The strain that pregnancy puts on a mothers organs is quite a significant factor in their ability to handle Covid, coupled with the fact that certain treatments or even simple intervention like proning isn't advised.


----------



## Purple (24 Nov 2021)

Sophrosyne said:


> Nonetheless, they exist.


I'm not suggesting otherwise.


----------



## odyssey06 (25 Nov 2021)

They're only now rolling out requirements for hospital visitors to either be vaccinated or recently recovered...









						Hospitals to require visitors to show proof of Covid vaccination or immunity from Monday
					

Frontline staff have welcomed the change, saying it was “ridiculous” that people had to show a Covid cert to enter a café but not an ICU.




					www.thejournal.ie


----------

