# Zurich vs Davy Prsa?(Near to the final decision)



## Younginvestor93 (22 Jan 2021)

Hi,

Im a 27 year old. I got stung with an irish life prsa pension 95% allocation and 1.25% fees from Aib not knowing anything and trusting the bank advisor. Self employed so it cant be a company pension.

I need to move it.
I have been in touch with a broker and I think I can get zurich dynamic fund at 100% allocstion and 1% charge.

The other option is Davy prsa at 0.75% charge plus i guess i have to add on the fund so like Vwce( Vanguard all world index is like 0.22) so thats 0.97% total and then with Davy you have €25 charge on commisions so thats not good either.

I am in 20% tax bracket and probably will be for a long time, so I wonder is it better to just go completely outside the pension and invest in etfs through Degiro. Yes i know about deemed disposal but the TER is only 0.2 so so maybe it is better. Anyone have any advice?

I have a small position in ishares world etf in degiro. Is that the best safe investment I can opt for?  I heard about investment trusts but are you not just better to suck up the 41% and have safety in the security of an all world etf, you cant go wrong?

Thanks for any help


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## SPC100 (22 Jan 2021)

If you got Davy PRSA, through a broker on an execution only basis, would any of the brokers refund some of the management charge?


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## Younginvestor93 (22 Jan 2021)

SPC100 said:


> If you got Davy PRSA, through a broker on an execution only basis, would any of the brokers refund some of the management charge?


I dont know? I only know Davy gave me 0.75.
The broker I got a financial plan with told me they could do it but it would cost more, I would be better off going to them directly, myself.


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## SPC100 (22 Jan 2021)

Our Remuneration | Raglan Street Private
					

Raglan Street Private aims to provide a personal, technology-enhanced experience with total transparency into your finances.




					www.raglanstreetprivate.ie
				




The info on this page implies davy pays up to .5p.c p.a. to brokers. That might be for the advice product, and might be for larger amounts.

It can't hurt to ask a few discount brokers about their terms for execution only Davy.


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## Gordon Gekko (22 Jan 2021)

SPC100 said:


> Our Remuneration | Raglan Street Private
> 
> 
> Raglan Street Private aims to provide a personal, technology-enhanced experience with total transparency into your finances.
> ...



That means that, where there’s a broker, Davy pay him or her 0.5% on top of their own charge. I don’t see how that’s helpful?


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## Younginvestor93 (22 Jan 2021)

Thanks, il ring them Monday and see.

As far as I am aware the best PRSA is with Davy, 0.75 plus your fund fee example 0.20 totalling it to 0.95. Then you have trades of €25 each which are expensive at the start but less of an impact later on, I guess its probably better to only lumpsum at the start so you dont pay €25 on trades every month with Davy.

"The info on this page implies davy pays up to .5p.c p.a. to brokers. That might be for the advice product, and might be for larger amounts.

It can't hurt to ask a few discount brokers about their terms for execution only Davy"


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## Younginvestor93 (22 Jan 2021)

Gordon Gekko said:


> That means that, where there’s a broker, Davy pay him or her 0.5% on top of their own charge. I don’t see how that’s helpful?


Based on your knowledge of PRSA pensions in Ireland. What is the best option available out there? Is it to go direct to Davy? Thanks


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## SPC100 (22 Jan 2021)

Gordon Gekko said:


> That means that, where there’s a broker, Davy pay him or her 0.5% on top of their own charge. I don’t see how that’s helpful?


I thought at least some of that was coming from the quoted amc? So if the broker was a discount one, they could return it to the customer.


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## Gordon Gekko (22 Jan 2021)

SPC100 said:


> I thought at least some of that was coming from the quoted amc? So if the broker was a discount one, they could return it to the customer.



With Davy? I wouldn’t have thought so. And certainly not to get it below the 0.75%.


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## no username (26 Jan 2021)

Hi younginvestor93, I'm curious did you reach a decision on this as I'm in a similar situation? Thanks


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## Younginvestor93 (26 Jan 2021)

no username said:


> Hi younginvestor93, I'm curious did you reach a decision on this as I'm in a similar situation? Thanks


Hi nousername,

I think Im going to go with Davy PRSA and invest in global equities. I'd prob pick VWCE, a Vanguard All World Equities Index as it has a 0.22 TER and I will prob lumpsum invest once a year to max my contributions. The reason I am looking to do this is because there is a €25 charge on trades with davy if you do this every month which is expensive if investing monthly.

I am not 100% sure if its as simple as adding the TER of the fund on top of the 0.75 charge DAVY has and totalling that as 0.97 and then comparing it to Zurich at 1% charge. Im not actually sure, maybe someone more knowledgeable than me can clarify this for me?

I don't think Zurichs fund fees of what you invest in are accounted for in the 1% either and there may be other small hidden charges so Im pretty confident DAVY is the best PRSA you can get in Ireland. The posters in this forum will confirm it though, they know a lot more than me!


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## Sarenco (26 Jan 2021)

I'm pretty sure Standard Life offers a PRSA with 100% allocation and an AMC of 0.65% if you invest in their Vanguard range of index funds.


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## Steven Barrett (26 Jan 2021)

SPC100 said:


> If you got Davy PRSA, through a broker on an execution only basis, would any of the brokers refund some of the management charge?



Product producers have to get authorisation from the Pensions Authority for every PRSA that they offer. A broker cannot say that they want to forgo any trailer that is built into the PRSA product. The provider would have to get a new product approved by the Pensions Authority to do so and they aren't going to do that as it costs money to get each PRSA authorised. 

If a broker pays back a commission received to a client, that is taxable income in the hands of the client and they must declare it. Paying back commissions paid to clients is not something that is usually done, afterall, we are running a business. And if the OP is at the lower rate and can contribute 15% of salary, that's a contribution of €5,295. 0.5% of that is €26. There wouldn't be any discounts given on that. 

Put the money in a personal pension, you can get them much cheaper than that. 

PRSA's are expensive pension contracts but people keep on looking at them instead of the cheaper options.





Sarenco said:


> I'm pretty sure Standard Life offers a PRSA with 100% allocation and an AMC of 0.65% if you invest in their Vanguard range of index funds.



Only applies to transfers over €100,000. It isn't suitable to other contributions as under that particular contract, there is a 5% contribution charge on monthly premiums and a 2.5% charge on a single premium contribution. They have other PRSA's with no contribution charges but the amc is 1%. 


Steven
www.bluewaterfp.ie


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## RedDevil (26 Jan 2021)

The Funds offered by Standard Life do not appear to be direct investments in Index Funds. 
There is a SID (Supplementary Information Document) rather than a KID (Key Information Document) ?
Their Standard Life Vanguard US 500 Stock Index has ongoing costs of 0.02% (buying and selling investments) and 0.90% (Managing the fund)
Difficult to be clear as to what they have available


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## no username (26 Jan 2021)

Hi, thanks for all the feedback above, it’s very useful information.

I am trying to decide and distinguish between the charges and fees relating to the below three PRSAs for funds less than €100k.

Standard Life Vanguard Global Share Index: my understanding is this fund has 0.90% AMC and 0.02% TER (Total Expense Ratio).

Are there additional costs with this fund? 
Does the 0.90% AMC and 0.02% TER include Vanguards fee?
If there are additional Vanguard fees outside of the 0.90% AMC and 0.02% TER does that mean it would have relatively high fees and charges when all is combined?

Davy PRSA Fund (Execution Only): my understanding is this fund has 0.75% AMC and 0.22% TER (Total Expense Ratio).

Are there additional costs with this fund?

Zurich Prisma 4: my understanding is this fund has 1% AMC.

Are there additional costs with this fund?
Does this fund have additional TER?

As an example, if you compare the above options with Zurich Prisma 4 (1% AMC) is it the case that there is actually little difference between Davy PRSA Fund (Execution Only) 0.75% + 0.22% = 0.97% and Zurich Prisma 4 (1% AMC) or am I looking at this incorrectly?

All feedback welcome


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## Younginvestor93 (26 Jan 2021)

SBarrett said:


> PRSA's are expensive pension contracts but people keep on looking at them instead of the cheaper options.
> 
> Steven


Thank you Steven for your info.

If you are a self employed sole trader, are you able to access a personal pension?

I already have PRSA with Irish life but I am looking to change it and DAVY is the best option based on all the research I have done.


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## Younginvestor93 (26 Jan 2021)

no username said:


> Hi, thanks for all the feedback above, it’s very useful information.
> 
> I am trying to decide and distinguish between the charges and fees relating to the below three PRSAs for funds less than €100k.
> 
> ...


How did you source the Standard Life option?

I see they show fund charges of 0.90-1.55% on the pensions authority page. I wonder is that for some specific people or who is elligible for the 0.90% charge and how does one get this?

If that's 0.90 and 0.02 for Vanguard Global Funds, that might be the best you can get but I am just looking at numbers, I don't know what happens behind the scenes.


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## Steven Barrett (26 Jan 2021)

Younginvestor93 said:


> Thank you Steven for your info.
> 
> If you are a self employed sole trader, are you able to access a personal pension?
> 
> I already have PRSA with Irish life but I am looking to change it and DAVY is the best option based on all the research I have done.



Personal pensions are available to those in non pensionable employment. They have been available to people for a lot longer than PRSA's.

You cannot however, transfer funds from a prsa to a personal pension. 

No username, with the Vanguard funds, that's it. No other charges.


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## Younginvestor93 (26 Jan 2021)

SBarrett said:


> Personal pensions are available to those in non pensionable employment. They have been available to people for a lot longer than PRSA's.


Wow, just when I think I have it sorted another spanner in the works. Think I remember Bank advisor telling me something about suggesting PRSA was the one for me, I stupidly said yes and now I'm stuck with it. Great!

So as an independent self employed contractor who get's no employer contributions I can get a personal pension and keep my PRSA as I have that already set up?

Now I guess I have to look at all the best personal pension providers?

Thanks for making things clearer. Don't want to screw up my pension again.


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## no username (26 Jan 2021)

Younginvestor93 said:


> How did you source the Standard Life option?
> 
> I see they show fund charges of 0.90-1.55% on the pensions authority page. I wonder is that for some specific people or who is elligible for the 0.90% charge and how does one get this?
> 
> If that's 0.90 and 0.02 for Vanguard Global Funds, that might be the best you can get but I am just looking at numbers, I don't know what happens behind the scenes.


It wont let me link to the URL. Google 'Standard Life Vanguard Global Share Index' and its on page 2 of the PDF document on the first Google result.

It appears to be a good option


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## Younginvestor93 (26 Jan 2021)

no username said:


> It wont let me link to the URL. Google 'Standard Life Vanguard Global Share Index' and its on page 2 of the PDF document on the first Google result.
> 
> It appears to be a good option


Did you see Steven suggested that a personal pension you can get cheaper charges than a PRSA so that is a better option if our cases are similar?

I guess the thing now is who on the market provides the best personal pension with the lowest charges?


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## no username (26 Jan 2021)

Younginvestor93 said:


> Did you see Steven suggested that a personal pension you can get cheaper charges than a PRSA so that is a better option if our cases are similar?
> 
> I guess the thing now is who on the market provides the best personal pension with the lowest charges?


I am already paying into a pension through my employment (Civil Service) so I don't think a personal pension is available to me?


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## Younginvestor93 (26 Jan 2021)

no username said:


> I am already paying into a pension through my employment (Civil Service) so I don't think a personal pension is available to me?


Probably not then, I will likely have to move my PRSA so I will probably now move it to Standard Life at .9 and then Vanguard Global fund on top of that at 0.02 so .92 total.

Or DAVY looks to be in second place at the moment with 0.75% annual management charge and 0.22 for a Vanguard All World Fund so total 0.97.

I think I will have to set up a separate personal pension with the cheapest provider on the market, no idea who that is at the moment though!


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## GSheehy (26 Jan 2021)

no username said:


> As an example, if you compare the above options with Zurich Prisma 4 (1% AMC) is it the case that there is actually little difference between Davy PRSA Fund (Execution Only) 0.75% + 0.22% = 0.97% and Zurich Prisma 4 (1% AMC) or am I looking at this incorrectly?
> 
> All feedback welcome



All unit liked funds have other ongoing costs (custodian fees, ETF fees, other fund cost/charges). These are the equivalent of TER charges but there's currently no obligation on fund managers to disclose them. That doesn't mean that they're not available, if you ask for them. 

Comparing the TER of a global share index or all world fund to a Multi Asset Fund  (Prisma 4) isn't a solid basis for a comparison. If you're looking at Zurich you'd need to compare those with something like their International Equity Fund. 

TERs / OCFs (ongoing charges figures) are additions to AMCs.

Gerard

www.prsa.ie


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## Younginvestor93 (26 Jan 2021)

GSheehy said:


> All unit liked funds have other ongoing costs (custodian fees, ETF fees, other fund cost/charges). These are the equivalent of TER charges but there's currently no obligation on fund managers to disclose them. That doesn't mean that they're not available, if you ask for them.
> 
> Comparing the TER of a global share index or all world fund to a Multi Asset Fund  (Prisma 4) isn't a solid basis for a comparison. If you're looking at Zurich you'd need to compare those with something like their International Equity Fund.
> 
> ...


In nousername's comparison above he pits the two best PRSA's on the market, the DAVY Prsa 0.75 + 25€ trading charge plus Vanguard all world index 0.22(TER) off against Standard Life with their Vanguard Global Fund of 0.02 on their 0.9% annual management charge.

Who wins out in that comparison in your opinion?


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## SPC100 (26 Jan 2021)

Iiuc, std life could take more than the amc, e.g. they could have TER, advertising, admin costs, and it might not be very transparent.

The davy cost is calculated on your balance in davy twice a year. And has no hidden extra costs.


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## SPC100 (26 Jan 2021)

If you get historic unit prices for std life (e.g. today and five years ago), you could compare the std life growth with the underlying fund growth, and roughly see what the std life drag is.


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## Younginvestor93 (26 Jan 2021)

SPC100 said:


> If you get historic unit prices for std life (e.g. today and five years ago), you could compare the std life growth with the underlying fund growth, and roughly see what the std life drag is.


What would you reckon between the two? Personally I have heard more recommendation on the DAVY PRSA over the Standard Life one. This thread is the first time I have heard it recommended to be honest.


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## SPC100 (26 Jan 2021)

SPC100 said:


> Iiuc, std life could take more than the amc, e.g. they could have TER, advertising, admin costs, and it might not be very transparent.
> 
> The davy cost is calculated on your balance in davy twice a year. And has no hidden extra costs.


I may have understated, there are still dealing costs, currency exchange costs,  bid/offer spread that you are exposed to with davy.


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## SPC100 (26 Jan 2021)

Standard life may be more financially secure.


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## GSheehy (27 Jan 2021)

Younginvestor93 said:


> Who wins out in that comparison in your opinion?



There's no 'right' answer to that. 

If your research indicates that it's a toss-up between these two then why don't you do both? 

The TERs that you are are basing your decision on aren't guaranteed. They're the current advertised ones. At least, that's my understanding anyway.  

And, if you're eligible for a personal pension you probably won't do either of these if your decision is purely down to cost.


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## Steven Barrett (27 Jan 2021)

Younginvestor93 said:


> Probably not then, I will likely have to move my PRSA so I will probably now move it to Standard Life at .9 and then Vanguard Global fund on top of that at 0.02 *so .92 total.*
> 
> Or DAVY looks to be in second place at the moment with 0.75% annual management charge and 0.22 for a Vanguard All World Fund so t*otal 0.97.*
> 
> I think I will have to set up a separate personal pension with the cheapest provider on the market, no idea who that is at the moment though!



You are overthinking this. On €5,000 contribution, the difference is €2.50. That's nothing. You have identified products that are competitively priced, pick the one that offers you the best options. 

Steven
www.bluewaterfp.ie


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## Younginvestor93 (27 Jan 2021)

GSheehy said:


> There's no 'right' answer to that.
> 
> If your research indicates that it's a toss-up between these two then why don't you do both?
> 
> ...


I can't move my PRSA funds into a personal pension as I understand so I have to keep a PRSA going and then look at setting up a personal pension?

Can you or anyone suggest the best providers of a personal pension in Ireland? 
I have to do research from square one again on this.

Thanks to all for the advice.


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## jigsaw (25 Apr 2021)

Hey OP.

Just wondered did you ever go with the Davy PRSA?

I am in the same boat as you.

I am currently with Zurich and have 100% allocation + 1% AMC.

But I would like to buy ETF's in a pension wrapper to avoid deemed disposal.

Also are you sure the Davy fee is 0.75%?

I just downloaded their fee booklet and it says the fee is 1.75% total which includes 1% stamp duty, or maybe Im reading it wrong.


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## Savvy (25 Apr 2021)

jigsaw said:


> Hey OP.
> 
> Just wondered did you ever go with the Davy PRSA?
> 
> ...


Hi Jigsaw,
They have some confusing examples where they are trying to break out their fees.
If you are just buying London/Irish ETF you will pay .75% on the PRSA. There is no stamp duty applied for purchasing ETFS. Of course the ETFS will have their own fees(ie bid/spread and TER etc) but they are nothing to do with Davy/Zurich.
K


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