# late vat return



## movingsoon (23 Nov 2011)

I just realised at the last minute that my vat return(bi-monthly) has to be done by the end of today
Even though i have the funds in my a/c,,  and the calculations are done, i have left all my books at the accountants for the end of year returns
this leaves me in the silly position of not having the exact figure of how much i collected and paid in vat for the last two months
does this mean i wont be able to do my return via ros tonight? and if so what happens if i am late paying the money via ros
i know this is a stupid mistake but i only have till the end of today to rectify it and would appreciate any help


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## mark1 (23 Nov 2011)

vat returns are only six monthly,jan - june & july to dec


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## Gervan (23 Nov 2011)

Return your best estimate, and if necessary make an amended return when you get the exact figures?
But I don't think you'll be shot for being slightly late.


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## movingsoon (23 Nov 2011)

thank you for your reply but you are incorrect

i file every two months on the instruction of revenue
i am currently trying to file for vat collected during sep and oct which is due on the 19th if the month after this period and extended to the 23rd if you pay online

the last e-mail i receieved fron ros stated ''it is now time to file your vat3 return via ros services. this return/payment has to be filed on or before 19/11/11, thus i am 100per cent sure that i need to file and your answer does not help my original question

i would greatly appreciate anyone elses help to my original query


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## Armada (23 Nov 2011)

mark1 said:


> vat returns are only six monthly,jan - june & july to dec


 
Some businesses do bi-monthly returns.. I do an annual one but pay monthly by direct debit.

I thought it had to be submitted though before the 19th of the month and you had til the 23rd if filed thru Ros to have the amount debited from your account.

I don't think that a day or two late submitting the return will cause any great problems. I have a friend who seems to be always late with the submissions.


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## movingsoon (23 Nov 2011)

thank you gervan, my last post crossed with yours
thats what i was hoping i could do- by making a rough guess 
its only a small figure , its just i am only doing this since this year and am as yet, unsure about being a few days late with payment
i was stupid to not copy the books before i gave them to the accountant but i guess you live and learn
can i just ask you- if i over estimate how and when can i claim this back?


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## movingsoon (23 Nov 2011)

thanks armada
thats what i was trying to say - you put it better than i did


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## Armada (23 Nov 2011)

You can do a supplementary return which will adjust the figures. I personally would leave it for a day or two and then file it when you have the figures to hand.

Saves messing around in the long run. I assume you aren't running computerised accounts.


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## irishmoss (23 Nov 2011)

Do the return in the next few days and file the proper figures

Revenue aren't going to penalise you for  being late a couple of days.


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## Gekko (23 Nov 2011)

Submit it tonight based on your best educated estimate (assuming you're not going to end up underpaying VAT by €6,000 or more).

Then make any necessary adjustment in the next VAT return.

You can do this without notifying Revenue or incurring interest if the VAT underpayment is less than €6,000.

By doing this you're complying with Revenue rules and not highlighting yourself as being non compliant and exposing yourself to an increased risk of audit.


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## mandelbrot (23 Nov 2011)

Gekko said:


> Submit it tonight based on your best educated estimate (assuming you're not going to end up underpaying VAT by €6,000 or more).
> 
> Then make any necessary adjustment in the next VAT return.
> 
> ...



That'd be fine, or just filing one day late would be fine on this isolated occasion, as several returns have to be late before Revenue systems kick in.


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## z107 (23 Nov 2011)

irishmoss said:


> Do the return in the next few days and file the proper figures
> 
> Revenue aren't going to penalise you for  being late a couple of days.



I wouldn't count on it!

Revenue charge a fine per day for late VAT, and over the last couple of years that have got ruthless with this.


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## mandelbrot (24 Nov 2011)

umop3p!sdn said:


> I wouldn't count on it!
> 
> Revenue charge a fine per day for late VAT, and over the last couple of years that have got ruthless with this.


 
Firstly it's not a fine, it's interest. The rate for VAT is 0.0273% per day, so that would be €1 interest per day, per €4,000 of VAT due...

I wouldn't count on getting a bill for interest on a VAT return submitted a day late, particularly when it's an isolated occurrence.


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## z107 (24 Nov 2011)

mandelbrot said:


> Firstly it's not a fine, it's interest. The rate for VAT is 0.0273% per day, so that would be €1 interest per day, per €4,000 of VAT due...
> 
> I wouldn't count on getting a bill for interest on a VAT return submitted a day late, particularly when it's an isolated occurrence.



It is 0.0274 and as far as I'm concerned I would classify this as a fine.

If VAT is late, then revenue can fine you. Anecdotally, revenue are getting stricter and stricter with this.


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## WindUp (24 Nov 2011)

OP - take a look at Chapter 17 of the VAT guide for details of interest and penalties. They will not come after you for a few Euro

If they do --ring Joe Duffy


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## mandelbrot (24 Nov 2011)

umop3p!sdn said:


> It is 0.0274 and as far as I'm concerned I would classify this as a fine.
> 
> If VAT is late, then revenue can fine you. Anecdotally, revenue are getting stricter and stricter with this.


 
I beg your (ten-thousandth of a) pardon  

Just because you want call it a fine doesn't mean it's a fine; it's interest.

Simple fact of the matter is, regardless of the fact that the CGs may be cracking down in this area, no-one will be charged one day's interest on a first time late return. Give me proof that that has happened and I'll give you a crisp €20 note!


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## T McGibney (24 Nov 2011)

Revenue have made a point of emphasising that a cumulative pattern of late filing increases the risk of selection of for Revenue Audit under their so-called REAP system.


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## mandelbrot (24 Nov 2011)

T McGibney said:


> Revenue have made a point of emphasising that a cumulative pattern of late filing increases the risk of selection of for Revenue Audit under their so-called REAP system.


 
Oh it sure does, and rightly so, but there was a very specific question asked by the OP which was, would they be in trouble if they file and pay their VAT3 a day late, having never been late previously. The answer to that is no, unless it is the beginning of a pattern of behaviour. 

I would be very surprised if a day is considered "late" for the purposes of a risk system though; more likely there is a threshold tolerance built in, as there are with most systems, of at least a week or two, before a return is actually late for the purposes of indicating risk.


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## z107 (24 Nov 2011)

mandelbrot said:


> I would be very surprised if a day is considered "late" for the purposes of a risk system though; more likely there is a threshold tolerance built in, as there are with most systems, of at least a week or two, before a return is actually late for the purposes of indicating risk.



Do you know this for a fact?


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## moxy (24 Nov 2011)

i had to file late (7 -14 days) twice last year, around 2000 on each case, no interst (or fine) 

This is a fact


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## Gekko (24 Nov 2011)

The correct advice is to submit on time and self correct...Revenue are then none the wiser and the taxpayer is compliant


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## mandelbrot (24 Nov 2011)

umop3p!sdn said:


> Do you know this for a fact?


Do you know otherwise for a fact?


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## z107 (24 Nov 2011)

mandelbrot said:


> Do you know otherwise for a fact?



If you are going to post such information, please back it up with a source.
The language of your previous post was of opinion rather than fact, that is why I asked whether it was fact.

People could act on your advice and if you are wrong, it could cost them money.

I would suggest either retracting your comment or backing it up with an authoritative source.


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## mandelbrot (24 Nov 2011)

umop3p!sdn said:


> If you are going to post such information, please back it up with a source.
> The language of your previous post was of opinion rather than fact, that is why I asked whether it was fact.
> 
> People could act on your advice and if you are wrong, it could cost them money.
> ...



What "information" did I post? I posted my opinion, it is clearly an opinion because I started with "I would be very surprised if", and then suggested what in my opinion is "more likely" to be the case. So I'll have to decline to retract my opinion, as I stand by it!

Anyone who did know such things as fact, probably wouldn't be in a position to confirm them as such, due to the Official Secrets Act.

However, there's plenty of publicly available information that the REAP system is a risk model which profiles taxpayers' behaviour over several years. Therefore by definition, a single isolated incident of marginally late filing, if recognised at all, could only be a very minor element of a risk profile...

I'm not quite sure what advice of mine "people" might follow - I offered an opinion to the OP about a specific situation as described by them.


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