# Paying rent by direct debit



## maebee (6 Nov 2009)

Hi,

My son and friend have just moved into an apartment. Between them, they've agreed that the rent should come out of my son's a/c on the 1st of every month as he gets paid monthly, on the 31st. This sounded ideal to them but the property agency have said that the rent for Jan 1st HAS to be in the account by Dec 23rd (Christmas hols etc) and if the DD fails, the property co. will charge €20 for the first failure and €50 for each subsequent failure. There's no way that the €475 needed to cover the rent, will be in my lad's acc on Dec 23rd (He's lucky if he has 4.75 at month's end!) but it will be there on Jan 1st, which is the agreed DD date.

Can anybody advise please?

Thanks.


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## Cat101 (7 Nov 2009)

Why is it coming out of you son's account? I would have advised my son to open a joint a/c with the other party.. just in case there was any fallout, he will be soley responsible to pay any arrears.. money owed.. late fees etc. and could run in to bad credit with his bank.

Can the property agency take funds from his a/c other than the agreed date?
Have you phoned his bank to ask?  Seems to me that they are breaking the agreement here not your son.


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## S.L.F (7 Nov 2009)

First this needs to be moved to Property investment.

Second if the rent is due on the 1 of the month how can they expect it 8 days before.

If it was me I would tell them to get stuffed and threaten to give notice, plenty of places for let out there.


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## maebee (7 Nov 2009)

Hi cat,
They figured this is the best way for them to do it. €475 comes out of my son's acc on the 1st and his roomate has a dd of €54 set up to go into son's acc every Friday.

The Property Co. also said that whenever the 1st falls on a Sunday, they'll take the dd on the previous Friday. They said to me, make sure to have the money in 2/3 days before the due date. That's impossibe as he always gets paid on the last day of the month.

I'll phone the bank on Monday


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## Mommah (7 Nov 2009)

I would just say no.
I have tenants who pay by dd individually.
You son's weekly paid flatmate should just paddle his own canoe and pay weekly by dd if necessary.


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## maebee (7 Nov 2009)

The Property Co. said it has to come out of one acc only. The flatmate is paying my son by weekly dd.


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## mcaul (7 Nov 2009)

There are plenty of other properties and a rental company acting in this was is utterly unreasonable.

Tell them that you will vacate the property as you have found a more reasonable landlord that will accept payment on the 1st of each month.


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## maebee (7 Nov 2009)

mcaul said:


> There are plenty of other properties and a rental company acting in this was is utterly unreasonable.
> 
> Tell them that you will vacate the property as you have found a more reasonable landlord that will accept payment on the 1st of each month.


 
Thanks mcaul. We're going to contact Threshold next week and ask for their advice.


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## Papercut (8 Nov 2009)

It looks as if the Property Co is abusing the direct debit scheme () & there is absolutely no reason why your son should be forced to pay his rent before it is due to be paid. It’s up to them (Property Co) to calculate when to instigate the direct debit process & to adjust this to allow for bank holidays if they feel that they must. Seeing as Jan 1st is a bank holiday (a Friday) the earliest the direct debit should be deducted from your son’s account is Jan 4th which is a Monday. 

  I would advise your son to contact his bank in writing (& keep a copy) & instruct them that on no account is this direct debit to be deducted from his account before the agreed date, which is Jan 1st. 

  Your son’s bank has a responsibility to your son:

    ''*Paying Banks Must:*
_-Only pay Direct Debits in accordance with its customer’s instruction._
_-Ensure that unauthorised and/or cancelled Direct Debits are intercepted and returned immediately on presentation._
_-Promptly refund its customer for indemnity claims and present the Indemnity to the Originator. _
_-Assist its customer in the resolving disputes with Originators. _
_-Inform the Sponsoring Bank if an Originator is not adhering to the Rules of the Scheme._''

  He should also write to the Property Co (& keep a copy) & instruct them that he will not authorise the payment until the rent is due, & that he has contacted his bank regarding the matter.

  If it’s the case that his salary will actually be paid early by his employer & the funds will be in his bank account on Dec 31st, he could allow them to collect one day early as a gesture of goodwill, but only if he is sure that he will be paid early, & only if he feels like it, & should alter the letters & instructions to Dec 31st.


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## maebee (8 Nov 2009)

Thanks for the excellent advice Papercut. I'll be showing this to my son today and he'll write to the bank immediately.


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## AgathaC (8 Nov 2009)

Maebee, sounds like they are being very unreasonable. Just one thing, you will need to clarify if the rent is a direct debit payment or a standing order. For example, your son's flatmate making the payment, that would be a standing order, an instruction he has given directly to his bank. The only reason I mention it is that unless it is a direct debit which the property company originates to your son's account the property company will not be bound by the originator scheme mentioned above.


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## maebee (8 Nov 2009)

AgathaC said:


> Maebee, sounds like they are being very unreasonable. Just one thing, you will need to clarify if the rent is a direct debit payment or a standing order. For example, your son's flatmate making the payment, that would be a standing order, an instruction he has given directly to his bank. The only reason I mention it is that unless it is a direct debit which the property company originates to your son's account the property company will not be bound by the originator scheme mentioned above.


 
Hi Agatha,

The rent to the property Co. is definitely a Direct Debit, being taken from my son's a/c monthly and the flatmate has set up a direct debit from his a/c to my son's, weekly.


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## AgathaC (8 Nov 2009)

That's good, Maebee, as this then means the company have to be bound by the originator scheme. I consider that they are being very unreasonable. I do hope everything gets sorted for you.


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## Complainer (9 Nov 2009)

maebee said:


> Hi Agatha,
> 
> The rent to the property Co. is definitely a Direct Debit, being taken from my son's a/c monthly and the flatmate has set up a direct debit from his a/c to my son's, weekly.


Unless the flatmate is a business, he can't set up a direct debit. Do you mean standing order?


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## missdaisy (9 Nov 2009)

Complainer said:


> Unless the flatmate is a business, he can't set up a direct debit. Do you mean standing order?


 
I am not a business but I have direct debits set up to come out of my account for electricity, gas etc.


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## maebee (9 Nov 2009)

Complainer said:


> Unless the flatmate is a business, he can't set up a direct debit. Do you mean standing order?


 
It probably is a Standing order from flatmate to son. I haven't seen that doc but the one from the Property Co. is definitely a DD. I have scanned the agreement, just trying to post it here.


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## missdaisy (9 Nov 2009)

maebee said:


> I have scanned the agreement, just trying to post it here.


 
I don't think I would post any agreement here Maebee!


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## maebee (9 Nov 2009)

missdaisy said:


> I don't think I would post any agreement here Maebee!


 
Just the doc daisy, with the names etc removed:

[broken link removed]


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## missdaisy (9 Nov 2009)

Maebee you haven't deleted the name of the rental agency.


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## scrivere (9 Nov 2009)

Just had a quick read through this.. it is completely unfair of the PA on your son and friend. I understand the PA and banks may be closed some days over Christmas but why not call for the money on 30th of Dec or the 4th of Jan.


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## maebee (9 Nov 2009)

missdaisy said:


> Maebee you haven't deleted the name of the rental agency.


 
Sorry about that. I'll try and amend it. Don't see how it matters though.


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## maebee (9 Nov 2009)

Hi Scrivere,
That's what we said but she was adamant that it needs to be there on the 23rd of December or he'll be charged an extra €20.


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## scrivere (9 Nov 2009)

http://www.threshold.ie/ - try here

or contact the bank , your son has set the dd up for the 1st. Therefore they might be willing to decline the dd as "not due" dd's have alot of rules around them.

Other thing is, depending on your sons circumtances... he may be paid early for Christmas so may have the money for the 23rd. I still think what the PA are doing is wrong.


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## Complainer (9 Nov 2009)

missdaisy said:


> I am not a business but I have direct debits set up to come out of my account for electricity, gas etc.


Yes, direct debits are initiated by the business - in your case, the electricity or gas company. You cannot set up a direct debit with another individual.


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## maebee (9 Nov 2009)

Complainer said:


> Yes, direct debits are initiated by the business - in your case, the electricity or gas company. You cannot set up a direct debit with another individual.


 
Hi Complainer, Son No. 2 pays me his car insurance every month, from his a/c to mine. I always thought this was a direct debit. Maybe it's a Standing order. It appears on my statement as a CT (Credit Transfer, I presume).


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## Complainer (9 Nov 2009)

maebee said:


> Hi Complainer, Son No. 2 pays me his car insurance every month, from his a/c to mine. I always thought this was a direct debit. Maybe it's a Standing order. It appears on my statement as a CT (Credit Transfer, I presume).


Standing orders are 'push' transactions - the money is pushed from the sender to the reciever. Direct debits are 'pull' transactions - the money is pulled by the reciever from the sender, it is initiated by the sender. Direct debits can be for variable amounts (e.g. an ESB bill). Standing orders generally stay the same.

So unless you send a message to your bank telling them how much to pull from your son's account, it is not a direct debit. It is a standing order.


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## Buddyg (9 Nov 2009)

Never pay with direct debit. Just do a monthly online transfer, gives you a bit of room. 

If they mention paying for late charges make sure not to pay your last months rent as they are just going to rip you off.


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## AgathaC (9 Nov 2009)

Complainer said:


> Standing orders are 'push' transactions - the money is pushed from the sender to the reciever. Direct debits are 'pull' transactions - the money is pulled by the reciever from the sender, it is initiated by the sender. Direct debits can be for variable amounts (e.g. an ESB bill). Standing orders generally stay the same.
> 
> So unless you send a message to your bank telling them how much to pull from your son's account, it is not a direct debit. It is a standing order.


Well put, Complainer. It is something that many people mix up, whether a payment is a standing order or a direct debit. While they are both methods of automated payment, it is important to know the difference when you are dealing with direct debits, should you need to rely, at any stage,on the rules of the originator scheme, -as mentioned in earlier posts.


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## Bronte (10 Nov 2009)

If the rent is due on the 1st there is no way it has to be paid by the 23rd December plain and simple and if the 1st is a bank holiday than with a standing order it will have to be the 4th.  

I think the agent in the agreement means a standing order and not a direct debit.  

In any case are not the 28th to 31st Dec not normal working days if one wants to be pedantic about it.  

Did you son agree with the agent that the rent was to be paid on the 1st of the month?


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## maebee (10 Nov 2009)

Hi Bronte,
Yes, son agreed to the 1st. then he was verbally instructed to have the payment in his a/c on Dec 23rd or he'd be charged an extra €20

As it states in paragrapgh 4, "Rent is to be paid by Direct Debit on the 1st of every month"

I've contacted Threshold and they advised writing to the bank, which he will do.


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## maebee (10 Nov 2009)

scrivere said:


> http://www.threshold.ie/ - try here
> 
> or contact the bank , your son has set the dd up for the 1st. Therefore they might be willing to decline the dd as "not due" dd's have alot of rules around them.
> 
> Other thing is, depending on your sons circumtances... he may be paid early for Christmas so may have the money for the 23rd. I still think what the PA are doing is wrong.


 
Thanks scrivere. I've contacted Threshold.
He won't be paid on the 23rd. Last year he was paid on Tues. Dec 30th


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## Bronte (10 Nov 2009)

The document you've posted quite clearly states the 1st of the month. 

I've had a look at the website of that agent and you should have a look at what the website says under tenants point 9 (not good - for the future be warned) and point 12 should be pointed out to them in relation to their unreasonableness in expecting the rent on the 23rd.  All this should in any case be clear from the lease.  Do you have a copy of the lease?


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## maebee (10 Nov 2009)

Bronte said:


> The document you've posted quite clearly states the 1st of the month.
> 
> I've had a look at the website of that agent and you should have a look at what the website says under tenants point 9 (not good - for the future be warned) and point 12 should be pointed out to them in relation to their unreasonableness in expecting the rent on the 23rd. All this should in any case be clear from the lease. Do you have a copy of the lease?


 

_9. There is no set law regarding the time limit for returning deposits but this is normally subsequent to the final inspection of the property._

YIKES! Thanks for pointing this out Bronte. The lads paid the deposit themselves and know that it's up to them to treat the place with respect, if they want to get their deposit back.

Re the lease: I thought that the doc I posted was the only form he signed, apart from the authorisation to the bank. I'll check with him.


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