# Architect services - detailed drawings, are they essential?



## Charley Bear (24 Feb 2012)

We hired an Architect to design an extension to our early 1900s cottage. The original cottage is approx 600sq ft and the new size of the house will be approx 1700sq ft. We were very happy with the design and have thankfully been granted planning permission to build it. We are complete beginners to this whole area and if we had our way would have just bought a bigger house if we could sell this one....Anyway the architect's fees for the first stage were €3000. We are now moving to the second stage and need to decide whether to engage the architect to do a set of tender drawings/detailed drawings. We want an energy efficient house as possible and are looking to engage with a consultancy service to provide a report which will inform the construction detailing. We are just a little surprised at the prices we have been quoted and would like some advice on the services that we should obtain at this stage. We have been quoted €4,500 for a set of detailed/tender drawings. €1500 for a structural engineer, €1600 for the consultant on energy efficiency and €600 to get a budget estimate for the build. That's €11,200 (+ VAT) before we even start. Our big question is do we really need detailed/tender drawings? If we hire a building contractor to oversee the build and use the energy consultant to outline what is needed to make the house as energy efficient as possible should this be enough? I suppose we are asking does a set of detailed/tender drawings pay for themselves by ensuring that all contractors tendering for the project price the same product and also help to keep things in budget. Also is there not an awful lot of overlap if there is an architect, structural engineer, energy consultant, quantity surveyor and main building contractor employed on the project?


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## threebedsemi (25 Feb 2012)

First of all, read the thread below this one where KKelliher points out the problems with beginning construction without a complete set of detailed drawings and specification. 

It really is the only way to be sure of what the building is going to cost you. 

Secondly, 
Many architects are their own worst enemies in terms of actually explaining the amount of work which is involved in this.
Ask the Architect to talk to through you the amount of information that they are going to produce (he/she can show you a previous tender package for a similar job and talk you through what is involved).

Thirdly, do not assume that most builders are in any way versed in current energy efficient building, heating system specifications and commissioning, airtightness detailing or thermal bridging details. 

Fourthly, I am unsure what the energy consultant is going to produce. Were they sugggested by the Architect? €1,600 is on the high side if they are just preparing a BER cert, however if they are performing thermal bridging calculations, condensation risk analysis calculations, and providing detailed guidance on heating system design, their fee may be fair enough. Some of these functions may be carried out by the Architect.
As a guide, I have seen fees of €400-500 from good BER assessors to produce a BER cert, which includes a couple of meetings in which they talk their client through the various options and the savings which these options will provide in running costs.

www.studioplustwo.com


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## lowCO2design (27 Feb 2012)

> We are complete beginners to this whole area


 so essentially yes, you need help and your happy to give a builder control of probably the biggest investment you'll every make, but you don't see the need for professional help to ensure its drawn and specified..





Charley Bear said:


> I  suppose we are asking does a set of detailed/tender drawings pay for  themselves by ensuring that all contractors tendering for the project  price the same product and also help to keep things in budget.


 your design team works for you on your behalf. your builder will only build what s/he is told to build.


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## mal_1 (27 Feb 2012)

Ultimately as you are concerned about the cost of this advice and are happy to go with a building contractor without tendering, you are effectively allowing them to price the work uncompetitively. In getting tenders for such work a 2300ft it wouldn't be unheard of to have a spread of possibly 50k between the highest and lowest tender. hence you could be leaving yourself to such variance.


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## Charley Bear (27 Feb 2012)

I think I might have been understood a little....




> your happy to give a builder control of probably the biggest investment you'll every make, but you don't see the need for professional help to ensure its drawn and specified..


 
We definitely see the need for professional help but we are wondering for a project the size of ours - 1700 sq foot in total - if some of the work could be overlapping between the different professionals. We were also just wondering if the pricing is in line with what is generally charged. 

threebedsemi - thanks for the idea of getting a copy of what a detailed set of plans look like. Initially we had been qouted €2750 by the architect but he now wants €4500 as he underestimated the work invovled. I suppose that is what is throwing us a bit.

We have been told by the architect that the energy consultant will look at "Thermal Insulation, Air Tightness, Heating Installation and Heat Recovery as these apply to all aspects of the construction – walls, roofs, floors, windows, rooflights and doors etc. and as they apply to both the new build extension and the existing cottage, both of which will require differing strategies to achieve optimum performance. The options and ultimate conclusions are presented in a 20 page report, which in turn directly informs the construction detailing, The consultant assists in the preparation of key detailing to assure integrity of insulation, air tightness etc. All options will be discussed and explained. Schematics of the preferred solution will be prepared for tendering purposes, with all major hardware specified".


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## lowCO2design (1 Mar 2012)

Charley Bear said:


> 1700 sq foot in total - if some of the work could be overlapping between the different professionals. We were also just wondering if the pricing is in line with what is generally charged.
> 
> €2750 by the architect but he now wants €4500 as *he underestimated the work invovled*.
> 
> 20 page report, which in turn directly informs the construction detailing,


I have an idea who is doing the energy side of things, and thats a good price if it includes a phpp/thermal bridging calc/ the stuff threebedsemi suggests

as regards the 4500 for plans and details why not show us the house and picture of the site. 

as regards the fee costs, when take 11200 fees *:* 170000 (easily) build cost - thats 6.5 % professioanal fees for practically a new house.



threebedsemi said:


> Many architects are their own worst enemies in terms of actually explaining the amount of work which is involved in this.


 agreed


> Ask the Architect to talk to through you the amount of information that they are going to produce (he/she can show you a previous tender package for a similar job and talk you through what is involved).


 and consider how often you and the builder will require consultation/service and solutions over an 8 month build time and an estimate of what extras might be if the tender documents are not properly prepared





> Thirdly, do not assume that most builders are in any way versed in current energy efficient building, heating system specifications and commissioning, airtightness detailing or thermal bridging details.


how great it would be


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## Charley Bear (9 Mar 2012)

Thanks for all the advice. We're meeting with our architect to talk through our concerns and are going to meet with him and the energy consultant and then agree a plan (and budget) from there. I'm sure I'll be a regular on here after that. Cheers


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## Brigid (20 Mar 2012)

Hi, I wonder how you got on?  we had the same dilemma but decided not to go with the detailed drawings in the end - it was definitely a budget thing, we were quoted €4,500 plus VAT too.  We got a structural engineer who put measurements in the planning drawings and spec'ed the steel etc and is giving us general advice.  we have also got experienced builders and trade people who we know to be good who are giving us options etc.  I would like to have had detailed drawings but our budget was going to be tight and so far I think we are doing ok.  However we have missed a couple of things which we wouldn't have missed if we could present proper drawings to the builders and tradesmen.  they would have been all the more useful since we are doing the build by direct labour.  However, the budget dictated and is still dictating!!


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## Charley Bear (2 Apr 2012)

Hi Brigid. We've had to put our meeting with our arch off a few times (nobody's fault) but are finally meeting him on Thursday with the energy consultant. I'll let you know how we get on. We will probably be going down the route of a contractor or project manager so hope this will help us. Like you our budget is the main reason we are not going down this route. Would you mind letting me know what kind of things you "missed"?


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## Brigid (9 Apr 2012)

One of the things that we missed was that we have a short corridor going to an end room down stairs which will be beside the main down stairs bathroom.  I had always thought that this room could be used if we ever became disabled or had a visitor who was disabled and assumed that since it is regulations that everyone would know that the bathroom would be wheelchair accessible from the little corridor.... however, we found out a couple of weeks ago that the corridor width is fine going to the end bedroom but a wheelchair wouldn't be able to fit into the bathroom.  we have now widened the door to allow this to happen but i assume that this would have been incorporated into an architects drawings.  Another thing would be not knowing the standard bath length is 1700mm and a long one is 1800mm - had we been told that you could get two different lengths we would chosen the longer one and have made this known to the plumber who would then i assume not have put the manifold (which has to be accessible at all times) just where the longer bath would fit.  Also poring over the plans I thought it would be very handy to have a door under the stairs leading to what is on the plans as a plant room as I thought it would be a good place to hang coats etc.  However, I didn't communicate this to anyone and the underfloor heating people put their manifold just where the door might be.  Lots of little things like that, which aren't fatal but do limit the scope you may have at a later stage for change if such is required.    If we had spent the 4850 on an architect, I assume he would have highlighted these little things and we would have been more prepared.


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## Charley Bear (19 Apr 2012)

Thanks Brigid - after much negotiation we have decided to go for the detailed plans (minus the interior design element - kitchen, sanitary wear, flooring etc). It will put our build back another 6-8 weeks but we hope by investing the time and money here we can save it later on.


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