# Are we obliged to pay ridiculous bill from solicitor when no price agreed initially



## clipper (5 Dec 2008)

We sold our house and bought a new one 3 years ago and used my family solicitor based down the country in an effort to keep down costs. We had also used the same solicitor when we bought our first house 5 years beforehand. At the time, we asked for a quote and he wouldn't give us one, saying he'd send us a bill after but not to worry, he wouldn't overcharge us. Fair enough, a bill for 1000 euro came a few years later which we paid and were satisfied.

This time round, a similar situation arose, we asked for a quote on several occasions, again he insisted he didn't have time to do a quote, would send the bill later and for us not to worry, he "would see us right". We proceeded with the transactions, which as usual, were very difficult as this particular solicitor is very inefficient so it took 100s of phone calls & chasing and we still ended up homeless for a weekend wherein he didn't transfer the money for our new house on time on the Friday so we couldn't move in, yet, our old house was sold - I'm not an expert on this area, but with electronic funds transfer etc. I would expect that both transactions could be done on the same day and we're the first people I've heard of who were left homeless (had to move all our stuff into a friends house). Anyway, in his usual efficiency, we got a bill 2.5 years later for 8000 euro - 4000 for each transaction. 

This was way more than we expected, do we have any comeback since no price was agreed initially, yet at the same time, we did agree that it would be a reasonable price which I don't consider this to be. I checked with revenue and know that he kept our stamp duty in his account for the 2.5 years and only paid a nominal amount within the first 28 days as required by revenue to avoid a fine, the stamp duty was then paid just before he sent us our bill. If he had that money in a deposit account, he would've made several thousand in interest as well as the 8000 professional fees. We had given him 4000 initially which he had said himself should cover everything but that he'd work out the total later, we were actually waiting for a refund rather than a bill for a further 4000.

Personally I think 4000 is more than enough and we shouldn't pay him anymore. A friend of mine used a Dublin based solicitor for her move this year and paid 1900 per transaction. I know law is on his side so to speak so we're in a very weak position, what are our rights here do you think?

Thanks


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## Angrygirl (5 Dec 2008)

*Re: Are we obliged to pay ridiculous bill from solicitor when no price agreed initial*

Hi clipper

it seems they are a law onto themselves alright, when i bought my property nearly two years ago i was advised verbally that €3000 would cover everything (received nothing in writing), before i even got my bill from them i sent a cheque for the €3000, 6 weeks later i got a bill for a further €800.. When i queried this i was advised this was the total amount of the bill and payment was expected asap or he would not complete the deeds of the property..
Within a few weeks of this happening my mother passed away and i totally forgot about this bill, i received a reminder on monday for the €800 that i still owe him reminding me he has not completed the sale and will not be completing it until he receives the €800..
I too am unsure if there is anything that can be done but surely we should have some comeback


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## j26 (5 Dec 2008)

*Re: Are we obliged to pay ridiculous bill from solicitor when no price agreed initial*



Angrygirl said:


> Hi clipper
> 
> it seems they are a law onto themselves alright, when i bought my property nearly two years ago i was advised verbally that €3000 would cover everything (received nothing in writing), before i even got my bill from them i sent a cheque for the €3000, 6 weeks later i got a bill for a further €800.. When i queried this i was advised this was the total amount of the bill and payment was expected asap or he would not complete the deeds of the property..
> Within a few weeks of this happening my mother passed away and i totally forgot about this bill, i received a reminder on monday for the €800 that i still owe him reminding me he has not completed the sale and will not be completing it until he receives the €800..
> I too am unsure if there is anything that can be done but surely we should have some comeback



That sounds like a practice that some solicitors engage in which is to tell you the fee, but "forget" to mention the outlay (Land Registry fees, searches etc).  It's a reprehensible practice, and thankfully not common any more.
I'd tell the solicitor the quotation was 3,000 and that's all you're paying, and if the solicitor feels more is due, the solicitor should explain how the fee came to more than the agreed price.

To the OP, ask the solicitor to justify it, particularly in the light of the apparent mess made of the closing.


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## orka (5 Dec 2008)

*Re: Are we obliged to pay ridiculous bill from solicitor when no price agreed initial*



clipper said:


> I know law is on his side so to speak so we're in a very weak position, what are our rights here do you think?
> Thanks


As a minimum, I would start by asking him for a breakdown of his fees - land registry, external fees etc plus an hourly breakdown of his time specifying what was done each hour.  If he hasn't just made up the number, then he should be able to supply you with a detailed breakdown of the costs.
I would also ask him for a timeline of how long he had your money for and when it was paid to revenue etc - although there is really not a lot you can do with this if he didn't get you into trouble with the revenue.


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## clipper (5 Dec 2008)

*Re: Are we obliged to pay ridiculous bill from solicitor when no price agreed initial*

Thanks Orka, he had sent a very basic breakdown, ie. land land registry fees and postage etc. but then heaped the remaining 3k or so per house into "Professional fees". Thats a good idea to ask him to break that down. I have gone in and talked to him and his attitude was "you dublin folks can afford" type comments, he said usually you get charged 1 or 1.5 % value of the house so really, we were getting a deal, he also said it wouldn't be worth his while doing it for anything less. I think I'll put it in writing asking him to outline a breakdown and detail the stamp duty time, at least he'll have to squirm at that, also outlining the mess up at closure


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## MOB (5 Dec 2008)

*Re: Are we obliged to pay ridiculous bill from solicitor when no price agreed initial*

"I'm not an expert on this area, but with electronic funds transfer etc. I would expect that both transactions could be done on the same day"

Well, I am an expert on this area, and getting cleared funds into your account from a buyer's solicitor and out by electronic fund transfer to a seller's solicitor is a VERY hit and miss affair.   I have had many transactions stymied while my clients money languished in the ether  (The banks always tell me it is at the "money desk".  I would like one of those desks.......)

That said, it is difficult to see how a solicitor could justify a fee of €4,000 per transaction.  Are you absolutely sure that this is the fee?  and not the total bill?  Obviously, you should pay nothing without getting a detailed bill of costs and outlays and if you have not been furnished this yet, it is inexcusable 

Regarding the comment that there is a "practice that some solicitors engage in which is to tell you the fee, but "forget" to mention the outlay (Land Registry fees, searches etc). It's a reprehensible practice, and thankfully not common any more." 

The situation is not quite as simple as that.   

These days people shop around.  If someone rings me for a quote, (and if I am inclined to give one), I will always ask if they have already had quotes.  If they have already had quotes, I will just quote the fee to them and explain that it is 'plus VAT'.  I will explain that outlay is outlay no matter which solicitor estimates it, and that there is no point in me going through the outlays all over again, when some solicitor has already done so.  

If I get the impression that someone is a 'tire-kicker' who is unlikely to do business, or whom I do not want to have as a client, I will restrict myself to quoting the fee and advising that this is 'plus VAT' and that there are outlays on top of this.  This is not in any way reprehensible.  It is about giving the consumer the information he\she needs to make proper price comparisons but without wasting my time giving out additional information to someone who is not yet (and might not become) a client.


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## clipper (16 Dec 2008)

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*Below is the exact breakdown I received from the solicitor, would the "professional fees" ususally be broken down into more detail than below? I assume the other charges are within a normal range*

*Purchase of new house*
Bank fee re. transfer of purchase money                                 25
Land Rgistry fees                                                                835
Copy Folio and file plan                                                         25
Searches                                                                             70
Professional fees - per account
Forms,postage, copying                                                        60
Professional fees on purchase & obtaining loan from bank      3500
VAT @21% on professional fees                                           747.6

*Sale of old house*
Profession fees - per account
Forms,postage, copying                                                    60
Professional fees on purchase & obtaining loan from bank    2500
VAT @21% on professional fees                                        537.6
Total                                                                                *8360.2*


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## Bronte (17 Dec 2008)

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"We had given him 4000 initially which he had said himself should cover everything but that he'd work out the total later, we were actually waiting for a refund rather than a bill for a further 4000."

You could try arguing this with him, preferably face to face.


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## j26 (17 Dec 2008)

*Re: Are we obliged to pay ridiculous bill from solicitor when no price agreed initial*

I'd question the Land Registry fee - it seems high.

How much did you purchase the house for?


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## Wexfordguy (19 Dec 2008)

*Re: Are we obliged to pay ridiculous bill from solicitor when no price agreed initial*

I had the same service for 1600 euro that included a *125 euro* land registry fee.
Be advised,a friend of mine was quoted *300 *for obtaining a Family Home declaration from a solicitor.I had one as an email attachment(free) and another solicitor signed it for *14 euro.*
You really need to shop around to avoid getting fleeced but the land registry fee is not accurate in your case.


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## mf1 (19 Dec 2008)

*Re: Are we obliged to pay ridiculous bill from solicitor when no price agreed initial*



Wexfordguy said:


> I had the same service for 1600 euro that included a *125 euro* land registry fee.
> Be advised,a friend of mine was quoted *300 *for obtaining a Family Home declaration from a solicitor.I had one as an email attachment(free) and another solicitor signed it for *14 euro.*
> You really need to shop around to avoid getting fleeced but the land registry fee is not accurate in your case.



I have to stop you there. 

Land Registry fees are fixed. if you only paid €125, then you only had a mortgage to register. 
The top level of Land Registry fees is €625 which with a mortgage would come to €750.00 unless there were additional items - e.g. an additional charge/mortgage. 

As regards the Family Law Declaration - you got it free ( and, as a result,  you have no appreciation that someone might have been entitled to charge you for preparing it) and paid someone to witness your signature. I see no reason why a solicitor should draft a Family Law Declaration for someone and not get paid. 

Before using words like "fleeced" and"not accurate" it might be safer to check facts. 

And yes, the fees charged here are on the high side but OP should have nailed the fees down at the start and I'd be pretty certain that the solicitor will negotiate if asked.

mf


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## Padraigb (19 Dec 2008)

*Re: Are we obliged to pay ridiculous bill from solicitor when no price agreed initial*



mf1 said:


> ... the fees charged here are on the high side but OP should have nailed the fees down at the start and I'd be pretty certain that the solicitor will negotiate if asked.



OP said


> ...We had given him 4000 initially which he had said himself should cover everything but that he'd work out the total later...



While that's not exactly nailing it down, it seems to me that if that is a fair representation of the conversation that happened, the solicitor is being quite unreasonable.


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## mf1 (19 Dec 2008)

*Re: Are we obliged to pay ridiculous bill from solicitor when no price agreed initial*



Padraigb said:


> OP said
> 
> 
> While that's not exactly nailing it down, it seems to me that if that is a fair representation of the conversation that happened, the solicitor is being quite unreasonable.




Well , look at it this way, the solicitor currently has 4K and is billing for the extra which rather puts the OP in a strong position. Again, for what it is worth, if the total bill was to be 4K then that would be a professional fee of 1.25K for each transaction which I would not regard as particularly worthwhile.

mf


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## ubiquitous (20 Dec 2008)

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mf1 said:


> , if the total bill was to be 4K then that would be a professional fee of 1.25K for each transaction



1.25k including VAT, ie €1k net.


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## j26 (20 Dec 2008)

*Re: Are we obliged to pay ridiculous bill from solicitor when no price agreed initial*



mf1 said:


> As regards the Family Law Declaration - you got it free ( and, as a result,  you have no appreciation that someone might have been entitled to charge you for preparing it) and paid someone to witness your signature. I see no reason why a solicitor should draft a Family Law Declaration for someone and not get paid.


In fairness, to charge €300 for a family home declaration is ridiculous, especially considering it is an essential part of the conveyancing process.  I have never paid for one, and if any solicitor even suggested that I had to (other than Commissioners fees), I'd change solicitors immediately.  There may be the odd situation where the solicitor has to do some research other than "are you or have you ever been married or engaged?", but at the end of the day it's a statement of fact for which the declarant takes responsibility, not the solicitor.


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## Vanilla (20 Dec 2008)

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j26 said:


> In fairness, to charge €300 for a family home declaration is ridiculous, especially considering it is an essential part of the conveyancing process. I have never paid for one, and if any solicitor even suggested that I had to (other than Commissioners fees), I'd change solicitors immediately. There may be the odd situation where the solicitor has to do some research other than "are you or have you ever been married or engaged?", but at the end of the day it's a statement of fact for which the declarant takes responsibility, not the solicitor.


 
Although I would not charge an existing client, I certainly would charge a stranger in off the street. It means taking instructions as to their marital status, going through the declaration with them as to which one is appropriate, then taking their personal details and adding them in, then printing it off and finally witnessing signature. At least 15 to 20 minutes of my time, my secretary's time, paper, ink etc etc. Not charging would not be good business. Not 300 but certainly not 10 either.


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## Dee101 (20 Dec 2008)

*Re: Are we obliged to pay ridiculous bill from solicitor when no price agreed initial*



mf1 said:


> I have to stop you there.
> 
> Land Registry fees are fixed. if you only paid €125, then you only had a mortgage to register.
> The top level of Land Registry fees is €625 which with a mortgage would come to €750.00 unless there were additional items - e.g. an additional charge/mortgage.
> ...


 
The Solicitor is obliged under Section 68 of the Solicitors Act 1994 to send a written quote of their fees to the prospective client as soon as is reasonably practical after taking instructions from them. So the onus is on the Solicitor not the OP here. 

Also MF1, a Family Law Declaration is a fairly standard and basic document in a domestic conveyancing transaction- all Solicitors would have this in their precedent documents and it would be a simple matter of changing the details to suit the particular client. The same one could be used for hundreds of transactions. So it's not a case of having to draft one specifically, I'm not saying they should do it for free but it certainly should not warrant a fee of €300 or anything like it. 

MF1 I know you are speaking up for your profession and I work in a similar area to you too but given the details we have from the OP it seems that these fees are way way over the top, it's a scandalous amount of money to be charging. It's Solicitors like this guy who give the rest a bad name.


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## Vanilla (20 Dec 2008)

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Dee101 said:


> The Solicitor is obliged under Section 68 of the Solicitors Act 1994 to send a written quote of their fees to the prospective client as soon as is reasonably practical after taking instructions from them. So the onus is on the Solicitor not the OP here.


 
If you work in this area you should know that it is NOT in fact necessary for the solicitor to send a written letter. It is enough that the solicitor discusses fees with the client and then keeps a memo of that conversation on file for example. 

Having said that I think the fees seem on the high side but we do not know the circumstances of the transactions and without knowing that, we really cannot say for definite.


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## Dee101 (20 Dec 2008)

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Vanilla said:


> If you work in this area you should know that it is NOT in fact necessary for the solicitor to send a written letter. It is enough that the solicitor discusses fees with the client and then keeps a memo of that conversation on file for example.
> 
> Having said that I think the fees seem on the high side but we do not know the circumstances of the transactions and without knowing that, we really cannot say for definite.


 


Section 68 of _The Solicitors (Amendment) Act, 1994_ provides:-
(1) On the taking of instructions to provide legal services to a client, or as soon as is practicable thereafter, the Solicitor shall provide the client with particulars in writing of:-

(a) The actual charges, or,
(b) Where the provision of particulars of actual charges is not in the circumstances possible or practicable, an estimate (as near as may be) of the changes, or
(c) Where the provision of particulars of actual charges or an estimate of such charges is not in the circumstances possible or practicable, the basis on which the charges are to be made, by that Solicitor or his firm of the provision of such legal services and, where those legal services involve contentious business, with particulars in writing of the circumstances in which the client may be required to pay costs to any other party or parties and the circumstances, if any, in which the client's liability to meet the charges which will be made by the Solicitor of that client for those services will not be fully discharged by the amount, if any, of the costs recovered in the contentious business from any other party or parties (or any insurers of such party or parties).
It's clear (from what the OP said and we have to take it on face value here) that the Solicitor did not fulfill his obligations under Section 68. I don't do domestic conveyancing anymore and you may do things differently in your office but we always sent a letter out to the client with a breakdown of the fees and outlay. Of course other incidentals may crop up over the course of the transaction but they would be made aware of the possibilty of this.
Again I will say, it is not up to the client to "nail down" the question of fee's - the onus is on the Solicitor here.


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## j26 (20 Dec 2008)

*Re: Are we obliged to pay ridiculous bill from solicitor when no price agreed initial*



Vanilla said:


> Although I would not charge an existing client, I certainly would charge a stranger in off the street. It means taking instructions as to their marital status, going through the declaration with them as to which one is appropriate, then taking their personal details and adding them in, then printing it off and finally witnessing signature. At least 15 to 20 minutes of my time, my secretary's time, paper, ink etc etc. Not charging would not be good business. Not 300 but certainly not 10 either.



I'm curious about that.  Would you also charge for preparation of the PD form, or the Objections and Requisitions/replies?  I have to say that I find it hard to see how the Family Home declaration is singled out for different treatment.  It is as central to the process as the one listed above.  Surely they should all be included in the professional fee.


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## Vanilla (20 Dec 2008)

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j26 said:


> I'm curious about that. Would you also charge for preparation of the PD form, or the Objections and Requisitions/replies? I have to say that I find it hard to see how the Family Home declaration is singled out for different treatment. It is as central to the process as the one listed above. Surely they should all be included in the professional fee.


 
I was referring to Wexfordguys post where he referred to someone being charged for a family law declaration as a seperate transaction. Naturally I would not charge a seperate fee for one in the context of an overall transaction.

Dee101- are you involved in LS audits? Because a written memo of a conversation with a client giving them estimate is sufficient. That is not what we do in our office- we *always *give a written estimate. Just making the point. Assume that if you give the client a copy of the memo/estimate while they are with you that is sufficient as that is what LS tell us.


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## Flax (23 Dec 2008)

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mf1 said:


> for what it is worth, if the total bill was to be 4K then that would be a professional fee of 1.25K for each transaction which I would not regard as particularly worthwhile.


 
Do you mind me asking how long each transaction would take you? i.e. how many hours do you have to work to earn 1.25k?


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## j26 (23 Dec 2008)

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Flax said:


> Do you mind me asking how long each transaction would take you? i.e. how many hours do you have to work to earn 1.25k?



To be fair, from what I know, €1,250 is not excessive by any stretch.  Solicitors normally take on this kind of work at a standard rate, even though the work involved could vary considerably.  They are also taking the responsibility for the conveyancing on their insurance.


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## rco2000 (26 Dec 2008)

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Folks. There Is A Website In Ireland Called www.rateyoursolicitor.com . Please Rate These Gangsters As We Need To Start Start Standing Up For What Is Right. It Is A Fantastic Website & You Would Be Shocked To Read Some Of The Comments About Your Local Solicitors!!


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## clipper (8 Jan 2009)

*Re: Are we obliged to pay ridiculous bill from solicitor when no price agreed initial*

The house was purchased for 730k, does the land registry fee depend on the value of the house - the land was valued at 317k I think. Is there anywhere I can check how much the land reg fee should be? There is a mortgage on the house as well,


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## Askar (8 Jan 2009)

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clipper said:


> The house was purchased for 730k, does the land registry fee depend on the value of the house - the land was valued at 317k I think. Is there anywhere I can check how much the land reg fee should be? There is a mortgage on the house as well,


 
Yes. http://www.landregistry.ie/eng/ click on fees. 


I would be surprised if Law Society would accept a written memo. Is there somewhere on their site or some practice direction where they have stated that a 'written memo' suffices? Of course, the Goodbody case holds that failure to comply with this requirement does not preclude lawyer from entitlement to reasonable compensation, and not aware that Goodbodys were taken to task by Law Society (open to correction on this), and indeed, afaik instructed them to represent them in competition authority enquiry; so maybe some solicitors take the view that no effective sanction for non-compliance?


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## Bronte (9 Jan 2009)

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Wexfordguy said:


> Be advised,a friend of mine was quoted *300 *for obtaining a Family Home declaration from a solicitor.I had one as an email attachment(free) and another solicitor signed it for *14 euro.*


  What did the friend who was quoted 300 need the family home declaration for as I find it hard to understand the fee quoted.  There must have been more work to it then that.  In anycase it always pays to shop around.


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## angstfree (14 Jan 2009)

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Clipper
The outlays you've been charged look ok, but professional fees are OTT. A competitive quote would be no more than half that. You are entitled to a quote before the transaction goes ahead and you should certainly have received the final bill on the day of the closing, not 2 years later. It sounds like you have a legitimate grievance here. I would suggest contacting the Law Society in writing. They can seek an explanation on your behalf.


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## roker (15 Jan 2009)

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I had a dispute with my solicitor over bills because he made such a hash of the job on a number of issues and almost lost me the purchase of a house.
I contacted the law society and the first thing they asked was "did I have a quote" which I was not given. You are supposed to have a quote.
 It is our fault for not insisting on a quote and shopping around.


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