# Has Sean Dunne lost his shirt?



## Towger (30 Jan 2009)

Has Sean lost his shirt?

From RTE: *32-storey Ballsbridge tower refused*



> An Bord Pleanála has refused planning permission for a high-rise development in Ballsbridge in Dublin.
> Developer Sean Dunne wanted to build a high density office, retail and residential development including a 32-storey tower on the Jurys Berkley Court site.


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## money man (30 Jan 2009)

*Re: Sean Dunne:AIB deal: Can anyone see him getting out of this without losing his sh*

Given that its very likely that the banks are rolling up the interest on this site when do you think they will call a halt? This is dead in the water now with the planning refused and is a vastly overpriced hotel site.  
Its going to be a good barometer of the overall market where the various parties go with this in the next couple of months.  I would consider Seans shirt well and truly lost at this point.


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## money man (30 Jan 2009)

*Re: Sean Dunne:AIB deal: Can anyone see him getting out of this without losing his sh*

you beat me to it towger!


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## Towger (30 Jan 2009)

*Re: Sean Dunne:AIB deal: Can anyone see him getting out of this without losing his sh*



money man said:


> Its going to be a good barometer of the overall market where the various parties go with this in the next couple of months.


 
Davy has already knocked 60% off the value of the Irish Bottle site, which is after all is 'just down the road'. [broken link removed]


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## Bronte (30 Jan 2009)

*Re: Sean Dunne:AIB deal: Can anyone see him getting out of this without losing his sh*



money man said:


> Given that its very likely that the banks are rolling up the interest on this site when do you think they will call a halt? .


  Why do you think it's unlikely they are rolling up the interest?


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## foghorn (30 Jan 2009)

*Re: Sean Dunne:AIB deal: Can anyone see him getting out of this without losing his sh*

More on the Irish Times:

[broken link removed]

I imagine Dunner will be picked up a lot more cents off bar floors from now on.


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## LouisCribben (30 Jan 2009)

*Re: Sean Dunne:AIB deal: Can anyone see him getting out of this without losing his sh*

For thick people like me who don't understand a lot about planning and finance, can I ask the following questions. 

Mr Dunne, when he purchased the site, how much money would he likely have had to come up with himself (what deposit) ? 
Would he have purchased it subject to planning permission ?
If todays decision is not appealed, and he can't build the high density development he requires to make it worthwhile, what happens ? 
Will the banks reposses it, and try to sell it off ?
If this happens, Mr Dunne will be left owing a lot of money, will the banks write off the debt, or will Mr Dunne pay it back from his future earnings ?
If the bank has a big bad debt on this, will Mr Dunne be declared bankrupt ?
Would this mean he can't continue as a property developer ?

As I say, very thick, naive questions.


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## runner (30 Jan 2009)

*Re: Sean Dunne:AIB deal: Can anyone see him getting out of this without losing his sh*

Put in 100M in cash himself, borrowed 280M from various banks.
Site non viable even with full PP.
Banks wont foreclose - who else will buy it from them?
They will just have to see it through - I think.


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## gearoid (30 Jan 2009)

*Re: Sean Dunne:AIB deal: Can anyone see him getting out of this without losing his sh*

I found this gem on the web. The Sindo coverage of the Dunne wedding. The yacht, the wedding and the story of the stool cover fabric show the sheer vulgarity and excess. The article also intones about his special friendship and relationship with Bertie and McCreevy. 



It is absolutely repugnant that the ordinary tax payer is going to bail out this kind of behaviour.

Even one of the most meritorious of the developers has now admitted on television that he is no longer covering his interest payments, and expects that none of the others are either.

At the very least the worst developers must be bankrupted and disgraced, and not molly-coddled by the state ownership of Anglo.

Unfortunately from last night we find out that four or five developers owe Anglo the guts of 800m each.


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## bankrupt (30 Jan 2009)

*Re: Sean Dunne:AIB deal: Can anyone see him getting out of this without losing his sh*

I must admit that I am puzzled by all the vitriol directed at Dunne over this development.  I thought it had some merit and was disappointed to see that it was turned down.   He did spend well over the odds for the land and it seems unlikely that he would have been able to proceed with it.  He took a big risk and lost, is it just typical Irish begrudgery that now labels him a greedy failure?


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## money man (30 Jan 2009)

*Re: Sean Dunne:AIB deal: Can anyone see him getting out of this without losing his sh*

Bronte....Where did you read that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by *money man* http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?p=795256#post795256 
_Given that its very likely that the banks are rolling up the interest on this site when do you think they will call a halt? ._

Why do you think it's unlikely they are rolling up the interest?


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## gearoid (30 Jan 2009)

*Re: Sean Dunne:AIB deal: Can anyone see him getting out of this without losing his sh*



bankrupt said:


> Is it just typical Irish begrudgery that now labels him a greedy failure?


I don't think so. If he was a success and I and other tax payers don't end up paying for his borrowings, then perhaps I might be more charitable.

Also he should take responsibility for his own actions. He seems to be engaging in a blame game that doesn't involve himself.

I also think his interview with the NY Times showed arrogance, stupidity and a lack of concern for the image he was portraying of how business operates in this country.


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## bankrupt (31 Jan 2009)

*Re: Sean Dunne:AIB deal: Can anyone see him getting out of this without losing his sh*



gearoid said:


> I don't think so. If he was a success and I and other tax payers don't end up paying for his borrowings, then perhaps I might be more charitable.



I take your points about his public persona showing a certain arrogance but it's hardly his fault that his bank happened to be nationalised?


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## rmelly (31 Jan 2009)

*Re: Sean Dunne:AIB deal: Can anyone see him getting out of this without losing his sh*

eh...which came first, the nationalisation or the loans to developers? Would the bank have needed to be nationalised if these loans didn't exist?


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## bankrupt (31 Jan 2009)

*Re: Sean Dunne:AIB deal: Can anyone see him getting out of this without losing his sh*



rmelly said:


> eh...which came first, the nationalisation or the loans to developers? Would the bank have needed to be nationalised if these loans didn't exist?



So Dunne is responsible for his bankers' ineptitude?


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## rmelly (31 Jan 2009)

*Re: Sean Dunne:AIB deal: Can anyone see him getting out of this without losing his sh*



bankrupt said:


> So Dunne is responsible for his bankers' ineptitude?


 
No - they are BOTH responsible.


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## bankrupt (31 Jan 2009)

*Re: Sean Dunne:AIB deal: Can anyone see him getting out of this without losing his sh*



rmelly said:


> No - they are BOTH responsible.



Oh really?  Did Dunne coerce Anglo into loaning him money?  Did he subsequently influence their loaning practices in order to precipitate the current crisis?

Edit: actually the money came from Ulster Bank for the Ballsbridge purchase.  Presumbably this will not need to be covered by the Irish taxpayer.


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## Padraigb (31 Jan 2009)

*Re: Sean Dunne:AIB deal: Can anyone see him getting out of this without losing his sh*



bankrupt said:


> Oh really?  Did Dunne coerce Anglo into loaning him money?  Did he subsequently influence their loaning practices in order to precipitate the current crisis?



I am sure that Dunne went to the bank with a set of costings and revenue projections that have proved to be greatly misjudged. The bank proceeded on the basis of that bad judgement. The bank can say that their business is finance, and that they were right to place some weight on Dunne's supposed expertise in the property business.

I think it is fair to say that they both responsible.


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## mercman (31 Jan 2009)

*Re: Sean Dunne:AIB deal: Can anyone see him getting out of this without losing his sh*



bankrupt said:


> actually the money came from Ulster Bank for the Ballsbridge purchase.  Presumbably this will not need to be covered by the Irish taxpayer.



Most of the other banks that were involved with underwriting this finance have already taken their loss on it and sold their holding back to the UB at a whopper of a loss. Why does anyone think the UB are so shaky at the present time ?? I would say they will take the property from Dunne, sell it on the open market at a significant loss and significant changes will be made to their operation in Ireland.


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## bankrupt (31 Jan 2009)

*Re: Sean Dunne:AIB deal: Can anyone see him getting out of this without losing his sh*



Padraigb said:


> I am sure that Dunne went to the bank with a set of costings and revenue projections that have proved to be greatly misjudged. The bank proceeded on the basis of that bad judgement. The bank can say that their business is finance, and that they were right to place some weight on Dunne's supposed expertise in the property business.  I think it is fair to say that they both responsible.



Are you suggesting that the bank set aside their critical faculties because Dunner turned up with a cracking wheeze?   Presumably the bank would have used it's own experts or a third party to evaluate his proposal.  If they did not then they are culpable,  if they did and still went ahead then they are still culpable - it was clear at the time that his proposal was no sure thing.  If the banks were lending recklessly then they have only themselves to blame, Dunne took advantage of them like any good entrepreneur would.


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## rmelly (31 Jan 2009)

*Re: Sean Dunne:AIB deal: Can anyone see him getting out of this without losing his sh*

bankrupt, help me here, I forget...were banks randomly throwing money at passersby, or did people (developers or the general public) apply to borrow the money?


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## bankrupt (31 Jan 2009)

*Re: Sean Dunne:AIB deal: Can anyone see him getting out of this without losing his sh*



rmelly said:


> bankrupt, help me here, I forget...were banks randomly throwing money at passersby, or did people (developers or the general public) apply to borrow the money?



As you are no doubt aware, the banks didn't properly assess the risk when lending to developers (or the general public), their own fault, not the developers (nor the publics).  If you recall the excesses of the credit bubble we have just come through it did seem at times that the banks were "throwing" money around (in the sense that low rates and high multiples of income/capital were ubiquitous and heavily advertised - of course, as you point out, people actually had to apply for these).


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