# Teachers and CIDs : 'Contract of Indefinite Duration'



## Judybaby73

Does anyone know anything about CID's and have any Teachers out there received them yet? Also can anyone define what they mean by "viable" in the literature?

Thanks


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## brokeparent

*Re: Contract of indefinite duration*

These ensure that teachers who have been working in temporary jobs for a certain no. of years (is it 4?) must be offered a permanent position if available in the school. They cannot be retained indefinitely on temporary contracts. I'm not sure what the "viable" refers to as I would need to se the context. Could it be to do with the fact that the position is deemed necessary in the school based on pupil numbers. Maybe you could clarify with relevant quotations


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## Judybaby73

*Re: Contract of indefinite duration*

Hi there Brokeparent and thanks for the reply....therefore teachers are not automatically entitled to these contracts? example: if a teacher is teaching in the PLC sector for 6 years and has a large number of students is it up to the VEC/Dept of Education to see who is entitled to a CID?


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## brokeparent

*Re: Contract of indefinite duration*

AFAIK a contract of indefinite duration must be offered to teachers who have put in a certain amount of service in a school. I'm not definite on the numbers but I think it is after 4 cinsecutive years on a temporary contract. Employers don't have any choice in this except the job must be warranted - schools can't  just appoint someone on a contract of indefinite duration without fulfilling the necessary criteria for creating a post. Where these contracts score is in preventing people being let go on a whim after giving good service in a school. It should also discourage the practice of employing temporary staff when a permanent position is available.


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## Parnell

*Re: Contract of indefinite duration*

It may be of interest for you to realise that the CID you are offered as of right after you have been employed for 4 years in one school/vec scheme,will be for a number of hours of not less than what you were contracted in year 4.this is very important-so if you hd 14 hours in year 4 you are entitled to be offered 14 or more in your CID. Incidintially in the case of vec schools-if the 14 hours is not available in your school you must be offered the balance in another school in the scheme or in another scheme up to 30 miles from where you live


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## Judybaby73

*Re: Contract of indefinite duration*



			
				Parnell said:
			
		

> It may be of interest for you to realise that the CID you are offered as of right after you have been employed for 4 years in one school/vec scheme,will be for a number of hours of not less than what you were contracted in year 4.this is very important-so if you hd 14 hours in year 4 you are entitled to be offered 14 or more in your CID. Incidintially in the case of vec schools-if the 14 hours is not available in your school you must be offered the balance in another school in the scheme or in another scheme up to 30 miles from where you live


 
ok...having taught in a VEC college (in the post leaving cert sector) for 6years we were told that teachers in the mainstream sector will receive their CID's but that the VEC will be looking at the PLC teachers contracts differently. I'm a bit disturbed by this and wonder should I get in contact with my union? The only thing i need to know is if there is an automatic right to a CID if you are working for more than 4 years ...

sincere thanks


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## brokeparent

*Re: Contract of indefinite duration*

That's exactly who you should contact. This is a legal minefield and exactly why those of us who are unionised pay our dues!!


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## Judybaby73

*Re: Contract of indefinite duration*



			
				brokeparent said:
			
		

> That's exactly who you should contact. This is a legal minefield and exactly why those of us who are unionised pay our dues!!


 
I did contact them and they asked if I wanted to appeal. If I appael i'm sure it'll have an effect on my career though ...I mean won't I be seen as a trouble maker?


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## thewatcher

*Re: Contract of indefinite duration*



			
				Judybaby73 said:
			
		

> I did contact them and they asked if I wanted to appeal. If I appael i'm sure it'll have an effect on my career though ...I mean won't I be seen as a trouble maker?


 
So what,someone has to stick their head above the parapet !.


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## Judybaby73

*Re: Contract of indefinite duration*



			
				thewatcher said:
			
		

> So what,someone has to stick their head above the parapet !.


 

Yeah ...someone ....just not me. I'm not brave enough and erm.....don't want to shoot myself in the foot promotion wise. If you are seen to be causing trouble then forget special duties posts etc! Rhetoric versus reality here!


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## Jamjam

I am teaching 6 years and I received a letter from my employer (VEC) which also contained two copies of my contract. It is called a "Fixed term contract for specific purpose". Can anyone tell me what this is and if it is a contract of indefinite duration (CID). I was expecting a CID but am unsure if this is it. I am afraid to sign it. I know I sound stupid but I really haven't a clue. Any help/advice greatly appreciated. Thanks

Jenny


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## Judybaby73

Have you spoken to the VEC or union?


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## ulysses32

I am told that a CID confers equal rights as those conferred upon a permanent teacher.

Is this correct?

Is a CID a permanent contract, regardless of number of hours?


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## mjb

Cid's have the exact same rights and entitlements as permanent teachers and if you feel you are entitled to a CID and are not being offered one you should contact your Union and do something about it. If you want security of tenure in your job do not be shy to assert your rights. You are either entitled or you are not and it is well worth the effort to fight for your CID.


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## Sandals

Previously posted this on CID here before.

"Held a CID (after four years working in same sec school). Following year school announced closure. shocking etc but I felt I was ok as of my wonderful CID. However union pointed out CID only gives you full entitlements after you've held it for 9 years. 

At the time informed CIDs introduced for protection of workers as many teachers held praying for their contact year after year not knowing how many, if any hours one would have. You were at the mercy of the principal or BOM. 

CID only mean you had a new title and gauranteed you the same number of hours you had worked in the fourth year in the school for as long as you remained. 

Recently I heard of a teacher who on the fourth year her dept. pay was cut to 9 hours and school paid for 13 hours. Her CID then only held for 9 hours. "

If you've worked for four years in the same school, your entitled to be awarded a CID in the fifth year contact (Sept).  The CID dies if you leave that school.


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## mjb

What happened after the school closed? Did you lose your job?


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## jasonr

Sandals said:


> Previously posted this on CID here before.
> 
> "
> If you've worked for four years in the same school, your entitled to be awarded a CID in the fifth year contact (Sept). .


 

This is not necessarily so. You are only entitled to a CID in the fifth year if the school has the hours available to slot you in. With the reduction in the pupil teacher ratios in September 2009 very few schools will have the hours to accomodate awarding a CID.


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## Sandals

Jasonr I won't agrue with you but three years ago, it was vital to have full hours DES paid in your fourth contact as that would mean you were automatically gauranteed to have those hours for your fifth and future contacts in that school. If what your saying is true about school having the hours available to slot you in, then why have CID's, I as a teacher would be back to being depended on principal/BOM for my hours. The idea of CID's is to offer you the same hours every year, you gain stability and security for the future. 

As for pupil/teacher ratios having an effect, I would see it as part-time teacherwill have less hours teaching and so their CID contracts will be for less hours. I haven't heard a sniff anywhere that CID's will be scrapped etc.  

As it happened school didn't close but it opened alot of people's eyes............


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## P55

edit


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## jasonr

There is a difference in permanent hours and part-time hours. A school can only fill up to its permanent allocation. the part-time hours can be used for RPT contracts. Sandals we are both saying the same thing really. To answer your question why have CIDs - this was to protect the teacher employed using the school's part-time hours and once that teacher was given its 5th successive year contract it should become a CID i.e. safeguarding their employment. In turn if the school is over its allocation of permanent teachers the CID will then be paid from the part-time allocation resulting in these hours now being utilised and no longer available to employ another RPT contract. The CID will then fill the next permanent position in the school as it arises( resignation, retirment of a permanent teacher)


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## mjb

If you have a CID you will be retained on thase hours in the exact same way as a permanent teacher. In fact, as a result of a recent decision at the Teachers Conciliation Council, if you have a CID for 18 hours or more, you are entitled to be paid for 22 hours, the max teachers salary. The Circular Letter for this has not been issued yet but the operative date is Sept. 2009. If a particular school has more permanent teachers and CIDs than its quota then it is technically over quota and people who retire or go on career break or job sharing may not be replaced.


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## ulysses32

I came across some useful information regarding CID's recently

*circular 0055/2008* states that CID's and permanency are effectively the same thing. There is no distinction drawn between the tenure rights of a CID and a permanent contract. The difference may rest in the no. of hours contracted in the CID. The opportunity to build these hours to full hours is still unclear.

If one is concerned about CID's read this circular as it is the final agreement as opposed to the transitional agreement that was in common usage and circulation.

Oops, just saw previous post and I am repeating what was said there.


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## wirelessdude

mjb said:


> If you have a CID you will be retained on thase hours in the exact same way as a permanent teacher. In fact, as a result of a recent decision at the Teachers Conciliation Council, if you have a CID for 18 hours or more, you are entitled to be paid for 22 hours, the max teachers salary. The Circular Letter for this has not been issued yet but the operative date is Sept. 2009. If a particular school has more permanent teachers and CIDs than its quota then it is technically over quota and people who retire or go on career break or job sharing may not be replaced.


 
where did you hear this? both my parents are principals and said that they haven't heard anything about this


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## fitzie79

was looking for info on cid contracts for my wife and came across this thread. very useful as there does seem to be a bit of confusion out there. my wife is going in to her 3rd year in a school and doesn't know yet how many hours she will have. the 1st year she had 18, last year 16.5. is there a lower amount of hours below which the contract doesn't count towards her cid? ie if she got 9 hours does that mean that this year wouldn't be counted as part of the cid or is the key thing only the amount of hours she has in the fourth year?


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## johnno09

And it all begs the question AGAIN of what the unions do for what we pay them????????????????????????


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## becky

fitzie79 said:


> was looking for info on cid contracts for my wife and came across this thread. very useful as there does seem to be a bit of confusion out there. my wife is going in to her 3rd year in a school and doesn't know yet how many hours she will have. the 1st year she had 18, last year 16.5. is there a lower amount of hours below which the contract doesn't count towards her cid? ie if she got 9 hours does that mean that this year wouldn't be counted as part of the cid or is the key thing only the amount of hours she has in the fourth year?


 
No you can have a CID for 1 hour a week.

I remember social welfare use to state you needed 8 hours a week for a stamp but I'm unsure if this is still the case.  

A CID means that you are guaranteed a set number of hours, have the same terms and conditions of a full time person but on a pro rata basis.

I can't answer how many hours your wife will get.


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## fitzie79

becky said:


> No you can have a CID for 1 hour a week.
> 
> I remember social welfare use to state you needed 8 hours a week for a stamp but I'm unsure if this is still the case.
> 
> A CID means that you are guaranteed a set number of hours, have the same terms and conditions of a full time person but on a pro rata basis.
> 
> I can't answer how many hours your wife will get.



thanks for the feedback


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## Freckleface

During the summer i received 10.5 hrs CID. I got a phone call from the principal last week to say that i needed to sigh my contract for the rest of my hours. On further questioning i found out that i only had 1 more class bringing me up to 11 hrs. This was a bit of a blow because i have always had full hours and i have been in the school for a number of years. With all the budget cuts and everything i was fully prepared to accept this. I went into school the following day to sign for my 1 extra class only to find out that a junior member of staff had been given hours for a subjects that i'm qualified to teach. Does any1 no am i not entitled to have my hours topped up before junior members of staff get hours especially if i can teach these subjects?


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## rainbowtrout

Freckleface said:


> During the summer i received 10.5 hrs CID. I got a phone call from the principal last week to say that i needed to sigh my contract for the rest of my hours. On further questioning i found out that i only had 1 more class bringing me up to 11 hrs. This was a bit of a blow because i have always had full hours and i have been in the school for a number of years. With all the budget cuts and everything i was fully prepared to accept this. I went into school the following day to sign for my 1 extra class only to find out that a junior member of staff had been given hours for a subjects that i'm qualified to teach. Does any1 no am i not entitled to have my hours topped up before junior members of staff get hours especially if i can teach these subjects?


 

How many years are you in the school? I assume the fact that you're getting a CID means more than 4. If you were on say 18 hours last year (if it was your fourth) and the hours are available then you are entitled to a CID for 18 hours. If you get a CID for 18 hours, then there is a form you sign and send to Dept/VEC saying you have CID for 18 hours but are willing to work up to 22 hours and they have to pay you for 22 hours. They'll probably give you 22 hours then as it would work out cheaper than having an RPT teacher doing them. If say you were on 16 hours in your fourth year, then your CID should be for 16 hours and those hours should go to you if you are qualified to teach the subject and not someone who has come in after you. 

Same is happening in my school at the moment, two teachers both due their 18 hour CIDs, now starting their 5th year, principal is giving them 17.20 hours, telling them that teachers will lose their jobs if they get full hours, when they are entitled to them and he has newer teachers teaching their subjects on 18+ hours... looks like they are going to get their proper contracts though. Definitely look into it.


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## marzipan

hi, i started in my school in jan 2006 and have had 5 contracts already and will have completed my 4 continuous years this coming jan. anyone know if i'm entitled to a cid in jan even though it's mid year. still waiting on a reply from my union...


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## becky

marzipan said:


> hi, i started in my school in jan 2006 and have had 5 contracts already and will have completed my 4 continuous years this coming jan. anyone know if i'm entitled to a cid in jan even though it's mid year. still waiting on a reply from my union...


 The time of year should not matter- it didn't matter when you started. I can't say for sure as there may be agreements beteew DoE and unions. Even so any agreement must be in line with the legislation.  What's important is what it said on your contracts.


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## marzipan

thanks becky.


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## jasonr

marzipan - your entitlement to a CID will be dependant on the type of contract you have with the school. Are you being paid from the part-time hours of the school or have you been covering for an absent teacher?


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## marzipan

my own hours, replacing someone who retired - just found out this week that i got the cid. thanks for the replies.


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## chesera

Hi Marzipan

Congrats on getting your CID. Can you say how far you had to go to get your CID. Am employed with my VEC since October 2005 and still fighting to get my CID


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## marzipan

Thanks Chesera,

My principal did all the hard work so I was very lucky. I did contact my union in Oct (under advisement of my principal and deputy principal) and was told I had a very strong case and to get back to them in Jan when I was due my CID if I needed them. Fortunately I didn't need them but that was definitely due to my principal. 

Hope it works out for you - going to your union may be the way to go if you haven't done so already - good luck.


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## chesera

marzipan said:


> Thanks Chesera,
> 
> My principal did all the hard work so I was very lucky. I did contact my union in Oct (under advisement of my principal and deputy principal) and was told I had a very strong case and to get back to them in Jan when I was due my CID if I needed them. Fortunately I didn't need them but that was definitely due to my principal.
> 
> Hope it works out for you - going to your union may be the way to go if you haven't done so already - good luck.


 
Thanks Marzipan. Unlike you my VEC are fighting me all the way. Currently waiting on a decision from Adjudication section of DES. hopefully Ill hear something positive soon.


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