# Homeowner can't move back into her home because of eviction ban



## Brendan Burgess (12 Dec 2022)

Fair play to this woman for going public on it. She rented out her apartment for a year while she was abroad and now can't move back into it because of the winter eviction ban.









						‘I’m a homeless homeowner’: The apartment owner who is now couch surfing
					

Jeanette Brown believes there should be amendment to the Act to allow for situations such as hers




					www.irishtimes.com
				




_A 33-year-old landlord, who moved abroad for a year but has recently returned home, is couch surfing, and has slept in her car some nights, as she is unable to move back into her apartment due to the eviction ban.

Jeanette Brown bought her apartment in Dublin in 2017. The fashion buyer was recruited abroad in 2021, and accepted a job offer in Dubai, moving in July of that year.

She then rented out her apartment to cover the mortgage while she was living in the Middle East. In July she issued her tenant an eviction notice from Dubai but was told three months later the notice was deemed invalid due to a recent change to rental legislation.

By that time the Government had introduced a moratorium on evictions, meaning if a residential tenant is given an eviction notice by their landlord between the end of October and next March, the eviction will be deferred until April._


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## ClubMan (12 Dec 2022)

Brendan Burgess said:


> _In July she issued her tenant an eviction notice from Dubai but was told three months later the notice was deemed invalid due to a recent change to rental legislation._


If she issued 90 day notice to quit in July (even the last day of that month) then it seems odd that it didn't involve a termination date before 30th October when the moratorium came in?


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## Brendan Burgess (12 Dec 2022)

Hi ClubMan

The problem is that a tenant can do what they want.

The landlord has to get every aspect of the eviction notice correct.  If they fall into any of the potholes along the way, the notice is invalid.  The likes of Focus Ireland are well used to scrutinising eviction notices and finding errors in them. 

Brendan


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## NoRegretsCoyote (12 Dec 2022)

Brendan Burgess said:


> She then rented out her apartment to cover the mortgage while she was living in the Middle East.


People don't realise that when you let your own dwelling you become immediately subject to tenancy law which is very rigid and designed to keep tenants in homes for a long time.

If tenancy has lasted less than a year it's a notice period of 5 months and if it's more than a year it's 6 months notice. It's not clear from the article when exactly she served the notification of tenancy but absent the evictions ban if she'd still have to have given 6 months notice and she'd still be couch-surfing if she'd issued the notification on 1 July 2022.



Brendan Burgess said:


> In July she issued her tenant an eviction notice from Dubai



In most instances, a landlord is required to submit a Statutory Declaration with the notice of termination. She would have had to have this done by the Dubai equivalent of a "_Commissioner for Oaths, Practising Solicitor, Notary Public, or Peace Commissioner_" for it to be valid. I wonder if she did this even.


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## ClubMan (12 Dec 2022)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> If it's less than a year it's a notice period of 5 months and if it's more than a year it's 6 months.


Ah, I thought that 90 days was the notice period. Seems that's only for non fixed-term tenancies?





						If your landlord wants you to leave
					

The rules that private landlords and approved housing bodies must comply with when ending a residential tenancy.




					www.citizensinformation.ie


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## NoRegretsCoyote (12 Dec 2022)

ClubMan said:


> Seems that's only for non fixed-term tenancies?


Even with a fixed term tenancy after six months a tenant gets Part 4 protection!

A standard tenancy is highly risky now for someone who wants to go abroad for a short period for travel or work. Both due to the length of notice periods needed and inability to move on a tenant who doesn't want to leave.

In her circumstances I think she would have been better putting in place a caretaker arrangement with a friend or family member.


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## Groucho (12 Dec 2022)

Brendan Burgess said:


> _In July she issued her tenant an eviction notice from Dubai but was told three months later the notice was deemed invalid due to a recent change to rental legislation._



That leads me to wonder whether a cunning tenant (possibly advised by one of Ireland's wonderful tenants rights' "charities") had waited until the last day of the eviction notice before informing her that the notice was invalid.    But perhaps I'm being too cynical in the "Season of Goodwill".


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## Brendan Burgess (12 Dec 2022)

That is exactly what happens.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (12 Dec 2022)

Groucho said:


> That leads me to wonder whether a cunning tenant (possibly advised by one of Ireland's wonderful tenants rights' "charities")


The legislation has been amended since 2016 to become very tenant friendly.

The formal obligations on landlords are now at the point where most landlords will struggle without expert, even legal, advice. There is no such expectation on tenants.

The cost of one missed step in a notification of termination by a landlord is total invalidity and having to start again.


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## Chipmunk (12 Dec 2022)

There is a similar problem with holiday homes. If you want to rent your holiday home for a couple if years and earn some extra cash and help with the housing crisis. The problem is you can’t get your house back because you do not meet the needs for ending the tenancy ( getting it back as a holiday home).


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## Groucho (12 Dec 2022)

I wonder how many of those hundreds of public spirited holiday home owners who have responded to the government's appeal to help accommodate Ukranian Refugees are aware of that.


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## Early Riser (12 Dec 2022)

Groucho said:


> I wonder how many of those hundreds of public spirited holiday home owners who have responded to the government's appeal to help accommodate Ukranian Refugees are aware of that.


 
AFAIK there is no tenancy arrangement under the Ukrainian scheme - indeed, it is a condition of the €800 monthly "Accomodation Recognition Payment"  from the Dept of Welfare that there is no tenancy arrangement. A contribution towards utilities/maintenance costs is allowed.


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## Groucho (12 Dec 2022)

Early Riser said:


> AFAIK there is no tenancy arrangement under the Ukrainian scheme - indeed, it is a condition of the €800 monthly "Accomodation Recognition Payment"  from the Dept of Welfare that there is no tenancy arrangement. A contribution towards utilities/maintenance costs is allowed.



But what guarantee is there that the homeowner can reclaim their property?


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## Early Riser (12 Dec 2022)

Groucho said:


> But what guarantee is there that the homeowner can reclaim their property?


 That is a different question. The homowner above was prevented from gaining possession because of tenant legal protections. These do not apply under the Ukrainian Scheme. Other that this I am not sure what type of guarantees could be given. That an enforcer will show up if necessary? What guarantees apply in relation to the rent-a room scheme?


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## Brendan Burgess (12 Dec 2022)

Hi Early Riser 

This story of the poor woman not being able to access her own home shows how absurd the legislation has become and how more absurd it becomes in time. 

I would not be surprised if the government introduces "emergency" legislation to protect Ukrainians living in people's homes. It would be absurd, but so is a lot of the legislation.    Likewise with the "Rent a room" scheme. 

All of this legislation is written to protect the existing tenant.  It does not balance the rights of the landlord/family.  It does not take into account the deterrent effect of such legislation. 

Brendan


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## Groucho (12 Dec 2022)

Early Riser said:


> Other that this I am not sure what type of guarantees could be given.



Agreed.     QED.     _Caveat homeowner_!


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## Early Riser (12 Dec 2022)

Brendan Burgess said:


> This story of the poor woman not being able to access her own home shows how absurd the legislation has become and how more absurd it becomes in time.


Agreed.



Brendan Burgess said:


> I would not be surprised if the government introduces "emergency" legislation to protect Ukrainians living in people's homes. It would be absurd, but so is a lot of the legislation



I would be more than extremely surprised by this. While there are no certainties in life this is not one to be too concerned about.


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## JMJR (12 Dec 2022)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> People don't realise that when you let your own dwelling you become immediately subject to tenancy law which is very rigid and designed to keep tenants in homes for a long time.
> 
> If tenancy has lasted less than a year it's a notice period of 5 months and if it's more than a year it's 6 months notice. It's not clear from the article when exactly she served the notification of tenancy but absent the evictions ban if she'd still have to have given 6 months notice and she'd still be couch-surfing if she'd issued the notification on 1 July 2022.
> 
> ...



Re a Statutory Declaration.
I was in this position when working abroad and can confirm that "A diplomatic or consular officer of Ireland" is legally able to witness a statutory declaration. In my case an officer in the Irish Embassy in Riyadh.


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## JMJR (12 Dec 2022)

I am gobsmacked by the level of discourse and by the misplaced entitlement evident in the discussion in this thread!
In my opinion when you rent out your home, it ceases to be your home. When you enter into a business contract with another party you both have to follow law that clearly bounds  how you and the other party must operate and interact. You each have duties, obligations and protections, which protects yourself and the other parties.
If you think the allocation of responsibilities between the parties is unequal and benefits tenants then, press to change the law.
I have been a landlord and found that the regulations were well illustrated on the PRTB website. It took some reading, re-reading and reference to the legislation itself, Irish Statutes, for me to be clear what my duties were. Not easy but not impossible for a lay person like me.
Don't become a landlord if you are not prepared to be one. Insure against what happened to the OP by spending money on legal advice.


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## Brendan Burgess (12 Dec 2022)

JMJR said:


> It took some reading, re-reading and reference to the legislation itself, Irish Statutes, for me to be clear what my duties were. Not easy but not impossible for a lay person like me.
> Don't become a landlord if you are not prepared to be one. Insure against what happened to the OP by spending money on legal advice.



If you are renting out your apartment for one year, you can't go to all that difficulty.

And not everyone is as resourced as you are to read, re-read and understand the law.

And then not trip up on some hurdle along the way.

But you make a good point "Don't become a landlord" which is what this all achieves.  It frightens off ordinary people from letting their homes. Then people complain about houses being left idle.

Brendan


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## Sarenco (12 Dec 2022)

JMJR said:


> Insure against what happened to the OP by spending money on legal advice


Legal advice on what exactly?

The lady in the linked article appears to have given her tenant the requisite notice of termination in accordance with the law as it existed at that time. 

Her problem is that the Government subsequently changed the goal posts and the effectiveness of her notice has now been paused until next April - assuming this date isn't further extended.

No advice in the world would have avoided this scenario.


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## Groucho (12 Dec 2022)

JMJR said:


> If you think the allocation of responsibilities between the parties is unequal and benefits tenants then, press to change the law.



Press what exactly?    Maybe the front door buzzer of the apartment that you leased to someone who appears to have pulled a last second stroke three months after being given notice to quit.


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## Chipmunk (12 Dec 2022)

Prior to the property crash of 2007/2008 banks were accused of being negligent in their lending. I would say now that banks are negligent if they lend for buy to let’s. With legislation changing every few months and always in favour of the tenant, it’s not a viable business any longer.


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## JMJR (12 Dec 2022)

Sarenco said:


> Legal advice on what exactly?
> 
> The lady in the linked article appears to have given her tenant the requisite notice of termination in accordance with the law as it existed at that time.
> 
> ...


Legal advice on the 'then current' situation regarding notice to end a tenancy.
The legislation that this landlord appears to have fallen foul of is the miscellaneous part of the" Regulation of providers of Building Works and miscellaneous Provisions Act 2022". This came into effect on 06 July 2022 when the notice period to end a tenancy between 6 months and 1 year became 152 days. This Bill was passed in the Dail in March 2022 so yes, legal advice would have highlighted it. Maybe also the PRTB flagged it during the period March to July 2022.- I can't say.


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## ClubMan (12 Dec 2022)

Groucho said:


> Press what exactly?    Maybe the front door buzzer of the apartment that you leased to someone who appears to have pulled a last second stroke three months after being given notice to quit.


From the article....


> The Dubliner said the situation is not the fault of her tenant, whom she feels is also a victim of the housing crisis ...


If people are going to comment and, in particular, make wild allegations, then the least that they could do is actually read the article in question.


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## Gordon Gekko (12 Dec 2022)

This is a very sad story.

There are lots of people who’d take matters into their own hands in such circumstances.


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## ClubMan (12 Dec 2022)

Gordon Gekko said:


> This is a very sad story.
> 
> There are lots of people who’d take matters into their own hands in such circumstances.


Which would be very foolish I imagine?


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## Sarenco (12 Dec 2022)

JMJR said:


> The legislation that this landlord appears to have fallen foul of is the miscellaneous part of the" Regulation of providers of Building Works and miscellaneous Provisions Act 2022".


No, the lady in the linked article has been caught out by the Residential Tenancies (Deferment of Termination Dates of Certain Tenancies) Act 2022, which came into effect on 29 October 2022 - months after she issued the termination notice.

Perhaps you need to invest more time studying the laws of relevance your residential letting business?


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## Gordon Gekko (12 Dec 2022)

ClubMan said:


> Which would be very foolish I imagine?


Probably, but that doesn’t mean that there aren’t people who’d take matters into their own hands.

If someone’s sister or daughter became homeless and for whatever reason that person couldn’t take them in, there’d be plenty of people who’d turn a blind eye to the tenant being forcibly evicted or paid to leave.


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## AlbacoreA (13 Dec 2022)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Hi Early Riser
> 
> This story of the poor woman not being able to access her own home shows how absurd the legislation has become and how more absurd it becomes in time.
> 
> ...



I think there's another view point on this. When you rent a property it ceases to be your home and becomes the tenants home. Home has a specific meaning in legislation. Security of tenure and all that. 

Obviously the lady in the article has been caught out by the moratorium. But it was very likely that the last moratorium wasn't going to be the only one, as the govt is using it to give the appearance of doing something about the housing crisis, while in reality sitting on their hands and failing on their promise of housing completions. 

So any landlord had fair notice it's only going to get increasingly harder to regain properties going forward. Probably to the point you can't unless a tenant leaves and all that implies for future sales with vacant possession etc. 

So it's very likely that any potential landlord might be better leaving properties empty than trying to rent them short term, if they have any plans to stop renting it in the short term. Short term is under 6yrs (tenancy) but likely to longer in the future.  Moving of goalposts very likely. 

So the govt is effectively encouraging people to leave properties vacant in the middle of housing and refugee crisis. Which is incredible.


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## AlbacoreA (13 Dec 2022)

And landlords leaving, and vacant properties only pushing rents up. Nice compounding of the crisis.


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## Greenbook (13 Dec 2022)

JMJR said:


> I am gobsmacked by the level of discourse and by the misplaced entitlement evident in the discussion in this thread!
> In my opinion when you rent out your home, it ceases to be your home. When you enter into a business contract with another party you both have to follow law that clearly bounds  how you and the other party must operate and interact. You each have duties, obligations and protections, which protects yourself and the other parties.
> If you think the allocation of responsibilities between the parties is unequal and benefits tenants then, press to change the law.
> I have been a landlord and found that the regulations were well illustrated on the PRTB website. It took some reading, re-reading and reference to the legislation itself, Irish Statutes, for me to be clear what my duties were. Not easy but not impossible for a lay person like me.
> Don't become a landlord if you are not prepared to be one. Insure against what happened to the OP by spending money on legal advice.


If you managed to navigate the numerous RT Acts using Irish Statute Book well done! Newer RT Acts keep changing and revising the older ones. Irish Statute Book does not update for those revisions. You just get one Act at a time and have to manually do the revisions yourself. There is so much RT legislation there at this point and it is so complex that this is specialist work for barristers (specialists in the Law Reform Commission do this work). So well done managing to sort it all out yourself on Irish Statute Book with a bit of re-reading!


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## BigBoots82 (13 Dec 2022)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Hi Early Riser
> 
> This story of the poor woman not being able to access her own home shows how absurd the legislation has become and how more absurd it becomes in time.
> 
> ...


And what happens when they run out of quasi letting arrangements to target?

If family homes have a spare bedroom will there be a mandate that this is offered up too? The hole thing is beyond ridiculous. The government should get out of the way already with endless regulations making things more and more dysfunctional


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## Greenbook (13 Dec 2022)

JMJR said:


> Legal advice on the 'then current' situation regarding notice to end a tenancy.
> The legislation that this landlord appears to have fallen foul of is the miscellaneous part of the" Regulation of providers of Building Works and miscellaneous Provisions Act 2022". This came into effect on 06 July 2022 when the notice period to end a tenancy between 6 months and 1 year became 152 days. This Bill was passed in the Dail in March 2022 so yes, legal advice would have highlighted it. Maybe also the PRTB flagged it during the period March to July 2022.- I can't say.


This was a late addition to the Bill and was introduced very quickly over a couple of weeks in late June/early July. If nothing else the name of the Act gives this away. It is not a Residential Tenancies Act at all. You can trace the legislative history of the Bill here
Regulation of Providers of Building Works and Miscellaneous ...​- these extended notice periods do not exist in the Bill as it stood in March 2022.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (13 Dec 2022)

Greenbook said:


> If you managed to navigate the numerous RT Acts using Irish Statute Book well done! Newer RT Acts keep changing and revising the older ones. Irish Statute Book does not update for those revisions. You just get one Act at a time and have to manually do the revisions yourself. There is so much RT legislation there at this point and it is so complex that this is specialist work for barristers (specialists in the Law Reform Commission do this work). So well done managing to sort it all out yourself on Irish Statute Book with a bit of re-reading!


It is a minefield and even the consolidated RTA produced by the Law Reform Commission is very difficult to navigate.
Even the new head of the RTB said he struggles to understand it:

_I can say that from my own experience, as someone who does not come from this background but from a different area of social regulation. *Coming to terms with the rules and provisions of the Residential Tenancies Act and the way in which they have changed over the last five years is certainly a significant challenge for me, as it is for many people in the sector*_



Sarenco said:


> Perhaps you need to invest more time studying the laws of relevance your residential letting business?



I am all for consumer protection. But many small-time landlords are not sophisticated people and to deal with their obligations many of them would actually need professional advice at this point. 

If you legitimately want to get to the point where all landlording is done by large funds then fair enough, that's a reasonable policy objective and I think it would make for a better sector. 

But in the meantime it's simply not feasible to accept a sophisticated level of compliance from the 150k or so landlords with one or two properties.


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## Groucho (13 Dec 2022)

ClubMan said:


> If people are going to comment and, in particular, make wild allegations, then the least that they could do is actually read the article in question.



You may not be able to read between the lines but I suspect that that particular disclaimer may have been suggested by the Irish Times's lawyers!  

Would you care to hazard a guess as to why neither the "faultless" tenant nor anyone else involved took the time to inform her that the eviction notice that she had issued to the tenant was illegal until 3 months after it was issued?    Please feel free to use both Occam's razor and your imagination.


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## ClubMan (13 Dec 2022)

Groucho said:


> You may not be able to read between the lines but I suspect that that particular disclaimer may have been suggested by the Irish Times's lawyers!
> 
> Would you care to hazard a guess as to why neither the "faultless" tenant nor anyone else involved took the time to inform her that the eviction notice that she had issued to the tenant was illegal until 3 months after it was issued?    Please feel free to use both Occam's razor and your imagination.


Well, if we're all supposed to just imagine what might have happened and dream up things with no bases in fact then it's a bit of a pointless discussion.


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## Purple (13 Dec 2022)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> I am all for consumer protection. But many small-time landlords are not sophisticated people and to deal with their obligations many of them would actually need professional advice at this point.
> 
> If you legitimately want to get to the point where all landlording is done by large funds then fair enough, that's a reasonable policy objective and I think it would make for a better sector.
> 
> But in the meantime it's simply not feasible to accept a sophisticated level of compliance from the 150k or so landlords with one or two properties.


They can just use a suitable letting agent.


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## DannyBoyD (13 Dec 2022)

Purple said:


> They can just use a suitable letting agent


That assumes letting agents are more competent; in my experience they are not.

In any event, this person's predicament is exactly what was forecast when the moratorium was brought in.

Which is why my strategy at this time is for 6 month lets only.


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## Purple (13 Dec 2022)

DannyBoyD said:


> That assumes letting agents are more competent; in my experience they are not.


There are good ones, they usually cost a little more.


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## T McGibney (13 Dec 2022)

ClubMan said:


> Well, if we're all supposed to just imagine what might have happened and dream up things with no bases in fact then it's a bit of a pointless discussion.


Or we can alternatively treat as Gospel every word we read in a newspaper.



DannyBoyD said:


> That assumes letting agents are more competent; in my experience they are not.





Purple said:


> There are good ones, they usually cost a little more.



Only a very expensive or very foolish one will provide an indemnity for losses incurred on foot of defective wording of an eviction notice.

The smarter ones will tell their clients "IANAL".


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## Purple (13 Dec 2022)

T McGibney said:


> Only a very expensive or very foolish one will provide an indemnity for losses incurred on foot of defective wording of an eviction notice.
> 
> The smarter ones will tell their clients "IANAL".


I'm not suggesting that they will indemnify their customers but they should be familiar with RTB regulations etc. and have templates for notices of termination of a tenancy. That's the route I used when evicting a bad tenant when I was a landlord.


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## T McGibney (13 Dec 2022)

Purple said:


> I'm not suggesting that they will indemnify their customers but they should be familiar with RTB regulations etc. and have templates for notices of termination of a tenancy.


I can only repeat: in the current environment, the smarter ones will tell their clients "IANAL".


Purple said:


> That's the route I used when evicting a bad tenant when I was a landlord.


Things have gotten rather riskier in the meantime.


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## AlbacoreA (13 Dec 2022)

No matter how good the agent they can't always second guess the Govt crazy decisions. 

From experience there are very few good agents.


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## AlbacoreA (13 Dec 2022)

ClubMan said:


> Well, if we're all supposed to just imagine what might have happened and dream up things with no bases in fact then it's a bit of a pointless discussion.



With experience its the most likely thing to have happened.


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## blanketyblank (13 Dec 2022)

A person who let out their home for A YEAR to people who knew they were getting it for a year  should be able to take back her home after A YEAR without all the hassle.


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## Purple (13 Dec 2022)

T McGibney said:


> Things have gotten rather riskier in the meantime.


Very true.


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## AlbacoreA (13 Dec 2022)

blanketyblank said:


> A person who let out their home for A YEAR to people who knew they were getting it for a year  should be able to take back her home after A YEAR without all the hassle.



Not any more.


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## Silversurfer (13 Dec 2022)

Groucho said:


> That leads me to wonder whether a cunning tenant (possibly advised by one of Ireland's wonderful tenants rights' "charities") had waited until the last day of the eviction notice before informing her that the notice was invalid.    But perhaps I'm being too cynical in the "Season of Goodwill".


Maybe we should consider our charitable donations this Christmas too?
With the new ‘recognition payment’ now €800 per month. This now sets a minimum rent of €800 and explains why the eviction moratorium included students.


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## Purple (13 Dec 2022)

Silversurfer said:


> Maybe we should consider our charitable donations this Christmas too?
> With the new ‘recognition payment’ now €800 per month. This now sets a minimum rent of €800 and explains why the eviction moratorium included students.


I never give money to charities that are involved in the homelessness industry.


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## Mocame (13 Dec 2022)

I don't know how many people rent out their homes each year because they temporarily move abroad for work or study, but I guess it is a couple of thousands.  I have friends and acquaintances who are academics, medics and diplomats who have all rented out their homes for between one and four years when travelling for instance.  I have mentioned in a previous thread that a relative rented out her home when she moved in with her terminally ill mother to provide care and company.  People in this situation will have to think very carefully before renting out their homes in future, many will decide not to and the availability of properties to rent will shrink as a result.  Does this obvious risk not strike any of the critics the unfortunate women whose story has been covered in the Irish Times?


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## Harvard (14 Dec 2022)

A classic case of wanting her cake and eating it.


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## Sarenco (14 Dec 2022)

Harvard said:


> A classic case of wanting her cake and eating it.


How so?


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## KOW (14 Dec 2022)

Harvard said:


> A classic case of wanting her cake and eating it.


What?


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## losttheplot (14 Dec 2022)

Harvard said:


> A classic case of wanting her cake and eating it.


Never understood this saying. If you have a cake what are you supposed to do with it? They're made to be eaten.


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## Brendan Burgess (14 Dec 2022)

losttheplot said:


> Never understood this saying. If you have a cake what are you supposed to do with it? They're made to be eaten.



I used to be confused by it as well. But I think what it means is that you want to eat the cake but still have it.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (14 Dec 2022)

I listened back to the Clare Byrne interview with the landlord in question. First off she was not your usual guest and was clearly nervous and not used to the style of interview.

I struggled to fully understand what happened but it seems she did make efforts to have a valid termination of tenancy issued in July including getting it witnessed legally in Dubai. It appears something wasn't right in the notice of termination and she only discovered this in October (4 months after tenants received it). She then had to re-issue. But by then she was caught by the "winter emergency" ban so it can't take effect until April 1 of next year.

She is looking to rent herself now but the market is gummed up of course and she is living with relatives.

She said that she legitimately struggled to understand tenancy law and for the last notice of termination had taken legal advice to avoid the same mistake again.

There are different ways of looking at this. On the one hand she was running a business and failed to understand how the law applied to said business. On the other hand she is someone who let their own home and made a reasonable assumption that (with notice) she'd be able to live in it again.

I feel sorry for her and tenants in equal measure. There are simply not enough dwellings in the rental market and that's something that is the government's job to fix, not a random landlord's.


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## Groucho (14 Dec 2022)

I have no particular sympathy for a tenant/tenants who, for 4 months knew that she wanted them out (and may also have known that she was coming back to Ireland) and also knew that the notice to quit was invalid.    They screwed her royally.

There are many adjectives that would accurately describe such people, but none of them can be posted here.


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## Harvard (14 Dec 2022)

Sarenco said:


> How so?





KOW said:


> What?



Have a listen to the CB interview. She expects the law to be changed to suit her and admits she followed online advice when issuing the first termination notice. The whiff of entitlement is something else considers herself an accidental LL despite making a conscious decision to let her sole property. Even when a LL follows tenancy law to the letter there is a certain element of risk involved when letting a property which is essentially something they sign up for in my view. Between tennants refusing to leave or returning a property in an uninhabited state it's not a transaction that is risk free. The risk is obviously much greater when a person let's their only property. Its not up to society to bend the rules to suit individuals that make reckless decisions as happened here.


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## Mocame (14 Dec 2022)

Harvard said:


> Have a listen to the CB interview. She expects the law to be changed to suit her and admits she followed online advice when issuing the first termination notice. The whiff of entitlement is something else considers herself an accidental LL despite making a conscious decision to let her sole property. Even when a LL follows tenancy law to the letter there is a certain element of risk involved when letting a property which is essentially something they sign up for in my view. Between tennants refusing to leave or returning a property in an uninhabited state it's not a transaction that is risk free. The risk is obviously much greater when a person let's their only property. Its not up to society to bend the rules to suit individuals that make reckless decisions as happened here.


Renting out a house is a reckless decision?  Bizarre as your view is it is probably correct in the context of the Ireland of today.


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## Leo (15 Dec 2022)

Harvard said:


> The whiff of entitlement is something else


It's a scandal alright, imagine being so entitled that she thinks she can just live in her own home!

Of course the only outcome of stories like this one is further reduction of properties entering the rental market. Those who are genuinely interested in the plight of renters should not be celebrating this as any kind of victory.


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## Sarenco (15 Dec 2022)

Harvard said:


> Have a listen to the CB interview


I heard that interview as it happens.

She followed the RTB guidance in relation to the initial notice of termination but accepts that the requisite notice period was changed so that the notice was invalid and she had to start again (at least that's the fact pattern as I understood it).  No issue with that.

The law subsequently changed yet again and the effectiveness of the revised notice has now been deferred to 31 March.  Understandably, she's not happy abut this but her real concern is that the 31 March date could be pushed out and that's why she's engaged with the media.

She was at pains to stress that she has no issue with her tenants.

I didn't pick up any sense of entitlement.  Quite the opposite, in fact.


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## GAAmam (15 Dec 2022)

From this interview it seems that there was a flaw in the Termination Notice that was picked up by a Housing charity. She did say that the tenant was ok with the notice so wonder how the charity got involved.  She seemed to have somewhere lined up to live in when she came home in August - she briefly alluded to that but said this changed.  Not clear when she had originally intended to take up residence in the apartment



			https://twitter.com/TonightVMTV/status/1602437049344196609?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1602437049344196609%7Ctwgr%5E901e8d260025542b6f4b4e0da73195a379074ba9%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.boards.ie%2Fdiscussion%2F2058275590%2Fhomeless-homeowner%2Fp13


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## ClubMan (15 Dec 2022)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> She is looking to rent herself now


Wow! I had heard that the housing crisis was putting some people on the streets, but I didn't know that that's what it meant...


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## SnowdaisyBell (15 Dec 2022)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Hi Early Riser
> 
> This story of the poor woman not being able to access her own home shows how absurd the legislation has become and how more absurd it becomes in time.
> 
> ...


This is what concerned me, none of the initial announcements said home owners are guaranteed to get their place back if needed, or that the Ukrainians wouldn't gain some kind of rights to stay. Looking into it they want minimum 6 months let, which could trap a homeowner into part 4 or similar 'tenancy' issues down the line.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (15 Dec 2022)

Sarenco said:


> She followed the RTB guidance in relation to the initial notice of termination but accepts that the requisite notice period was changed so that the notice was invalid and she had to start again (at least that's the fact pattern as I understood it).


The subsequent Virgin Media interview seems to suggest she had made some error in the notice of termination and that this was spotted by a charity quite soon before it was due to come into effect.

She had double bad luck as by then the winter evictions ban had come into place.

She says "you'd want to have a degree in law" to be a landlord today and she is not wrong.


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## Groucho (16 Dec 2022)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> The subsequent Virgin Media interview seems to suggest she had made some error in the notice of termination and that this was spotted by a charity quite soon before it was due to come into effect.
> 
> She had double bad luck as by then the winter evictions ban had come into place.
> 
> She says "you'd want to have a degree in law" to be a landlord today and she is not wrong.



In other words, her tenant(s) - knowing that she would shortly be returning to Ireland and would require her property to live in - scurried off to a  so-called Housing "Charity" in order to see whether he (or she) could screw the poor woman - and succeeded.      A sick country and an even sicker charity.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (16 Dec 2022)

Groucho said:


> In other words, her tenant(s) - knowing that she would shortly be returning to Ireland and would require her property to live in - scurried off to a so-called Housing "Charity" in order to see whether he (or she) could screw the poor woman - and succeeded. A sick country and an even sicker charity.


The tenant is just exercising their rights. With nowhere to go I'd do the same.

The problem is the system itself, as the landlord has stressed in every media interview I've seen.


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## Purple (16 Dec 2022)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> The tenant is just exercising their rights. With nowhere to go I'd do the same.
> 
> The problem is the system itself, as the landlord has stressed in every media interview I've seen.


Yep, the rights and wrongs of it goes out the window when you are facing being homeless.


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## ClubMan (16 Dec 2022)

Groucho said:


> In other words, her tenant(s) - knowing that she would shortly be returning to Ireland and would require her property to live in - scurried off to a  so-called Housing "Charity" in order to see whether he (or she) could screw the poor woman - and succeeded.      A sick country and an even sicker charity.


The passive aggression is strong with this one...


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## T McGibney (16 Dec 2022)

ClubMan said:


> The passive aggression is strong with this one...


Not inappropriate in the circumstances.


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## Greenbook (16 Dec 2022)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> The subsequent Virgin Media interview seems to suggest she had made some error in the notice of termination and that this was spotted by a charity quite soon before it was due to come into effect.
> 
> She had double bad luck as by then the winter evictions ban had come into place.
> 
> She says "you'd want to have a degree in law" to be a landlord today and she is not wrong.


I suspect what happened here is that she was caught by the Regulation of Providers of Building Works and Misc. Provisions Act, 2022. This was a Bill going through the Oireachtas in June/July dealing with the regulation of building works (hence the title). Very quietly new sections were added extending the notice periods for evictions (from one month to three with tenancies of less than 6 months duration) and requiring the notices to be sent to the RTB on the same day as issued. 

As I said these amendments can in very quietly (Seanad amendment as far as I can make out) and very quickly. If she drafted her documentation on a Monday and sent them off on the Friday, she could have been caught by the change ie. they were correct on Monday, the above Act became law (signed by President) on Wednesday, so she had issued in an invalid notice on Friday. It wasn't even flagged to those involved. Threshold knew about it. The RTB were a little in the dark.  

The law in this area is becoming a trap for those who do not have top drawer professional advice at this point. Solicitors only picked this up from the Threshold website and were scurrying around trying to trace the relevant legislation. Very easy for a lay person who follows the rules to get caught. Very unfair that people who do not understand what happened or do not understand the complexities condemn her for issuing an invalid notice. I don't doubt that some legal professionals missed it also and issued invalid notices. 

As you say she was then caught by the eviction ban. 

Overall she is correct. If you need the house back in a year or two, do not rent it out under any circumstances. It is just too risky for the amount of money involved. That is becoming standard legal advice at this point.


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## DannyBoyD (16 Dec 2022)

Greenbook said:


> do not rent it out under any circumstances.


Or rent for 6 months only.


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## Greenbook (16 Dec 2022)

DannyBoyD said:


> Or rent for 6 months only.


You could still get caught out on that as post July 2022 you now have to issue a formal notice (previously a letter you drafted yourself would suffice), give three months' notice (it used to be one) and send a copy of the formal notice to the RTB on the same day as it is issued (previously no requirement to do this). Lots of scope for mistakes here and for further changes to the legislation.


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## Sarenco (16 Dec 2022)

Plus it doesn’t eliminate the very real risk that a tenant simply overholds.

Renting out a home that you expect to live in within a few years is just not worth the risk IMO.


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## Greenbook (16 Dec 2022)

Sarenco said:


> Plus it doesn’t eliminate the very real risk that a tenant simply overholds.
> 
> Renting out a home that you expect to live in within a few years is just not worth the risk IMO.


Exactly! Renting out if you were going abroad was something that everybody did for donkey's years - without a thought really. It made a bit of money for the homeowner and the place wasn't vacant, was heated etc. 

If you have any sense, it is the last thing you would do now.


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## Groucho (16 Dec 2022)

ClubMan said:


> The passive aggression is strong with this one...



Sincere apologies for having a keen sense of right and wrong.  I appreciate that it doesn't meet with your standards.


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## DannyBoyD (18 Dec 2022)

Greenbook said:


> You could still get caught out on that as post July 2022 you now have to issue a formal notice (previously a letter you drafted yourself would suffice), give three months' notice (it used to be one) and send a copy of the formal notice to the RTB on the same day as it is issued (previously no requirement to do this). Lots of scope for mistakes here and for further changes to the legislation.



What do you mean "caught out"?
You read the rules and follow them
Yes tenant could overhold, but that can happen in any tenancy. Ultimately they have to leave.

You make it clear from the outset that lease is for 6 months only, give the notice at 3 months & get a new tenant in for the next six months.

It's a load of wotsit for everyone involved, but thats the nonsensical position government legislation has put us in.

It took a decade for our esteemed leaders to finally do something about the consequences of the Fair Deal scheme which meant leaving empty houses rotting for years.

No doubt it will take them as long to figure this one out as well.


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## Greenbook (18 Dec 2022)

DannyBoyD said:


> What do you mean "caught out"?
> You read the rules and follow them
> Yes tenant could overhold, but that can happen in any tenancy. Ultimately they have to leave.
> 
> ...


My point is that you could still make a mistake in the notice, the statutory declaration, calculating the notice period or filing and serving these. My view at this stage is that these are being made as complex as possible to catch landlords out and delay evictions. Why, for example, does a landlord have to send the documentation to the RTB on the same day as it is issued? Why does the RTB need it that precise day? 

Also, the law can change rather suddenly (as I suspect happened with the landlord here). 

Doing as you say, while as you correctly say it is a load of wotsit for all involved, certainly minimises the chances for the landlord of something going wrong especially if the landlord takes great care. Your are certainly correct there. That said, it is not entirely foolproof IMO. The landlord could still make a mistake with all the requirements. The law could suddenly change and that change might not be well flagged (as happened with the recent changes in July). 

Just shows though how stupid and unworkable the whole area has become.


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