# AIB Redress for lost Property?



## tnegun (3 Jun 2020)

Apologies for posting in the AIB forum. We had two properties one AIB, one EBS. The EBS one became AIB/EBS and got into trouble after 2 years or so after we should of come off the fixed rate with prevailing rate option. We ultimately lost the AIB/EBS property am I incorrect in thinking that we should be due additional redress from AIB for this in light of the Prevailing Rate compensation?


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## RedOnion (3 Jun 2020)

Sorry, was the mortgage AIB or EBS?
There are 2 different entities, but part of the same group. An FSPO direction to one entity doesn't apply to the other.


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## tnegun (3 Jun 2020)

It was the EBS one that was lost. I'm linking them as if we had a tracker the EBS one would not of gotten into trouble.


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## RedOnion (3 Jun 2020)

Ah, ok. Sorry I misread your post.

You had a AIB mortgage, which didn't move to a tracker at the end of fixed period.

You had a separate property with an EBS mortgage.

Because the AIB mortgage didn't roll to a tracker, the EBS one went into arrears, and was repossessed. If you had rolled onto a tracker with AIB, all would have been ok, and you'd still have the property?

Is that an accurate summary?


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## tnegun (3 Jun 2020)

Yes that's exactly it


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## Brendan Burgess (3 Jun 2020)

You are making your question very complicated and misleading by referring to it as an EBS/AIB mortgage. There is no such thing.

If you have consequential losses as a result of not been given the AIB prevailing rate tracker, you can ask AIB for more compensation.  And if you are not happy with the outcome, you could go to the Ombudsman or the High Court.

You have not provided any numbers.

But if your EBS buy to let property was not sustainable, it was not sustainable. 

It seems to me to be a bit of a stretch to say "Well if I had a cheaper mortgage rate on my home loan, I could have kept the buy to let". 

EBS, along with most banks, was very flexible in rescheduling mortgages.  If they were not able to reschedule your buy to let, it was because you did not have the payment capacity by a fairly wide margin.  I doubt that having a tracker on your home would have made it sustainable.

Having said that, you should make the claim and AIB, the Appeals Panel or the Ombudsman might agree with you.

But don't rely on it.

Brendan


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## tnegun (3 Jun 2020)

I didn't mean to mislead initially we dealt with EBS then AIB took over and we had meetings with in AIB offices with AIB staff regarding it. At one point they said they wanted to do a deal lump and the AIB and EBS mortgage together so they didn't see a difference.

EBS wouldn't make any concessions the only options they gave us were to pay it in full or to sell it and we'll talk about the residual afterwards. The shortfall between the rent and the mortgage was about €300 at a time(2012) when the AIB interest rate was over 4% and rising.

In terms of numbers the repayments on the AIB mortgage at the time were about €1500(4.24%) and the EBS mortgage €800 (Rent was €500 or so) . We maintained the EBS through the worst of the recession up until 2012 when a combination of rising interest rates, USC and wage cuts left nothing to cut but the EBS mortgage contributions and they went straight to get it sold.


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## Brendan Burgess (3 Jun 2020)

Are you saying that there were no arrears on the EBS mortgage? 

It's extraordinary that you had to sell it.   

If someone had repayments of €800 and they had been paying €500, it would have been unusual for EBS to pressurise you to sell. 

You could have cut back on your home loan repayments and diverted them to EBS and there is nothing that either of them could have done about it.

However, as AIB met you and discussed both together, it's reasonable that you could make a claim that they were connected.

I  suggest you fill in  all the information in the Mortgage Arrears Key Post.  

Brendan


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## tnegun (3 Jun 2020)

There were no arrears when we approached EBS to say we were in trouble, then less than 2k when they decided they wanted it sold and instructed us to do so. We asked what deal could be done to make is sustainable but as they had nothing to offer be make full payments or sell it.
We went sale agreed and moved the tenant out, EBS withdrew consent for sale and we started negotiations again however arrears were now climbing rapidly as there was no rent coming in, went sale agreed again and again consent was withdrawn, we then entered a period of years where EBS said they were considering their position and would be in contact.
In hind sight I should of let the apartment again but I did not and it sat idle for 4-5 years accumulating arrears before EBS suddenly woke up again and said they would sell it. They did so for a significant loss and said they would be in touch come to a settlement and to write down the residual. They did not and the next we heard was that it had been sold to a vulture.
I'll take a look at the Mortgage Arrears Key Post tonight and fill in any missing info.


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## tnegun (3 Jun 2020)

Actually I had completed Arrears key info post here https://www.askaboutmoney.com/threads/help-writing-proposal-for-partners-btl-residual.212801/ . Nothing much has changed we lost the DCA payment as my daughter now qualifies for a medical card and our PIP is still negotiating with the vulture but advised that we slow down/hold off pending the outcome of our Prevailing Rate appeal.


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## Brendan Burgess (3 Jun 2020)

tnegun said:


> There were no arrears when we approached EBS to say we were in trouble, then less than 2k when they decided they wanted it sold and instructed us to do so.



That is very odd. 

Of course, if it had been empty for 5 years, the arrears would have been huge.

Brendan


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## tnegun (3 Jun 2020)

I was told at the time they didn't do deals as it wasn't our home and was considered a buy to let.
On arrears by the end of the process there was more owed then ever lent despite almost 6 years of payments. I had forgotten but they did allow a year of interest only before we got into arrears but that was it. Even though the mortgage was in my wife's name only they insisted on a joint SFS as the AIB mortgage existed and the banks were now merged.
My wife had no income beyond the rent and they would fixate on things like my work expenses sometimes 2-300 a month and say they would cover shortfall while not acknowledging it was my employer reimbursing vouched expenses, they wanted the DCA too at one point. 
I also had a car loan with BOI at the time and they wanted me to default on that but as that would impact my credit rating and we would possibly loose the only car that wasn't an option for me. With those sticking points they wouldn't do any deal. 
I asked again in early 2016 could we agree something and I would let the apt again and start servicing the loan but they said I would need to clear the substantial arrears first and the next I heard was from a receivor.


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## tnegun (4 Jun 2020)

Any suggestions for how I go about putting a value on all this or who could?


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## Brendan Burgess (4 Jun 2020)

This property was in your wife's name only.
Your wife had no income beyond the rent.
The rent was not enough to cover the interest, never mind the full repayments. 
You were not prepared to make up the balance from your income and you were not under any obligation to do so. 
It was in deep negative equity.

From the limited information you have provided, it does sound as if was unsustainable and EBS were right to require you to sell it.   They would not have been able to offer you any restructuring under the Central Bank's guidelines. 

I doubt that the following argument would convince anyone:
My wife's mortgage was totally unsustainable.
I was unable or unwilling to pay her mortgage as it was in deep negative equity.
However, if an unrelated bank had charged me less interest on my mortgage, I would have used that to pay her mortgage in full. 

Your account of how they vetoed the sale a few times on the face of it sounds very bad from EBS's point of view. 
It seems to me that your best avenue of complaint would be to make a formal complaint to EBS about the way in which they handled it and request them to formally write off the shortfall. 
If they refuse take a complaint for maladministration to the Ombudsman. 

If you can show that you acted in good faith and that EBS acted in bad faith or treated you badly, then there is a fairly good chance that the Ombudsman will recognise this. However, if EBS's side of the story is different and they show that you were trying to pull a fast one, you will get no sympathy from the Ombudsman.

Brendan


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## tnegun (4 Jun 2020)

Thanks for the guidance Brendan, one problem with complaining to EBS is that the shortfall is with a vulture now so they could not write if off now? I submitted a Subject Access Request to EBS and got lot of info from EBSs perspective and there is definitely reference to not agreeing to at least one of the sales as well as record of calls were I was looking for resolution.

That alone should at least demonstrate that we were trying to engage and work this out with EBS but they blocked it, they then reneged on a verbal agreement to write down the shortfall from the sale and come to an agreement with us once the bank sold the property and the shortfall realized. As soon as it was sold they sold the debt to a vulture. I have an email from the bank were they allude to this but don't mention it specifically. They also kept telling us to wait or that they would issue a new proposal which delayed the ultimate resolution out by several years.

On the AIB front if we had been given a tracker at the prevailing rate of 1.5% over ECB when we exited the fixed period in 2009 by 2012 we would of have had over €500 more disposable income per month so I don't think its a stretch to say this contributed significantly to the loss of this property, in fact during 2014 the difference between a tracker and the SVR was over €700.

As evidenced from my posts I'm not very good a getting my message across who should I see re composing a complaint to the Ombudsman?


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## Brendan Burgess (4 Jun 2020)

tnegun said:


> Thanks for the guidance Brendan, one problem with complaining to EBS is that the shortfall is with a vulture now so they could not write if off now?



That does not affect your rights in any way. 

Make your complaint to the Ombudsman and if it's upheld and, for example, he orders EBS to write off the shortfall, then they  will have to do that with EBS.

I am not sure that you need anyone to compose a complaint.  Or should I say, you should not spend money on an accountant or solicitor. 

You need to set out the exact chronology of what happened.  
Don't tell half a story. The EBS will tell it and the Ombudsman will ask anyway. 

Don't confuse the EBS issue with the AIB issue. 

1) Your wife should make a complaint to EBS about their treatment.

2) When AIB writes to you jointly, you can see what avenue of appeals there is then.

Brendan


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## tnegun (4 Jun 2020)

Thanks again Brendan I'll set about getting it all down on paper. I need to complain to EBS first and see what the outcome there is, then go to the Ombudsman?


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## Brendan Burgess (4 Jun 2020)

Correct. 

But your complaint about EBS's behaviour has nothing to do with the Prevailing Rate issue.

Don't  confuse them.

Brendan


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## TrackerThieves (7 Jun 2020)

Is the AIB account purely a tracker issue or was there any other issues in how they treated you's during this period?
Brendan has given some very good advice and as he says keep them separate and don't confuse the 2. Although the loss of the property has no bearing on the AIB case. The tracker will have had an impact on the loss of the property. If you feel strongly on this I would ask the ombudsman that they be linked for this reason. I have a similar situation and it was the ombudsman's office that suggested my cases be linked in their system. They will still be kept as separate complaints.

Make a timeline of exactly what happened and when, go through all documents and recordings thoroughly. Ensure you have all the relevant documents and recordings you feel necessary. If needed make specific data requests with the AIB's subject access request team ( they will deal with all data requests in relation to both AIB and EBS). If you already have everything putting it in order will not only make it clear in your own head going forward it will allow you to clearly put the issues to the bank when making a formal complaint and when making a complaint to the FSPO. 

Keep everything well documented. I have scanned all my documents and and have everything on computer kept in organised folders. Camscanner is easy to use if you don't have a scanner, use miscrosoft paint if you need to take screenshots of e-mails. If you use more than 1 computer I would suggest using a dropbox account so you can access/edit everything easily. I would suggest making a word document detailing everything that happened in chronological order and making a  list of all issues before making a formal complaint. I would then make a separate folder for each issue and detail exactly how each occurred eg say you make a folder relating to a specific issue put all documents relating to this issue in that folder. whether they be letters, documents or e-mails put them in order as they happened by naming each document but putting a number at the beginning of each so they appear in chronological order. This may be a bit time consuming but will make it easier and clearer in the longrun and you will likely need to provide all this information anyway if the FSPO case needs to go to investigation.

This could be a long process and be prepared that the bank may delay and frustrate you along the way.


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## tnegun (7 Jun 2020)

Thanks @TrackerThieves I've started to put a complaint together and spent most of the weekend trawling through all of the documents I received from a SAR request last year as I thought I might need them for the AIB case. Frustratingly there's lots of duplication, I suspect some call records missing and stuff out of order so its taking time to collate and put in order. Then as you say I'm trying to link emails I sent at the time to bank records. The behaviour concerned started in 2013 and finished in 2017 is there any time limitation on taking the complaint?


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## TrackerThieves (8 Jun 2020)

I think you have six years to complain. As the actions were ongoing, you only count from 2017. Someone else might confirm this


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