# New entrants getting higher salary than existing staff.



## Hawthorn (13 Apr 2003)

The company that I work for has recently employed a number of new entrants. I have been training these people who all do like work as myself. I have discovered that these people are all starting on the same salary and in some instances higher salary than myself despite the fact that I have several years service with this company. 
I have received a high rating in my recent appraisal.

Any advice?

:\


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## 1120 (14 Apr 2003)

*New Entrants*

Do you have a title & job description for your position. Has the entry requirements increased, many companies are now requiring 3rd level education as standard.
Are you a member of a union? Could you join a union?
Do you have a staff association?
Equality legislation is not of any real use to you as it does not cover same gender issues.


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## PGD (14 Apr 2003)

*large company*

Hi,

I've come across this before... if you work in a large company I would suspect that it could be for beaurocratic reasons. They just might not be as on top of things as you think.

Why don't you simply mention it and see what happens. Maybe they are trying to save money in difficult times but still have to pay the new guys the market rate in order to attract employees.


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## ParkDrive (14 Apr 2003)

*Existing staff become part of the furniture.*

Surely this type of carry on is illegal. One would imagine that if you had two or three years service then your existing salary would be two or three years ahead of new entrants? You would have your normal increments plus cost of living or, if on performance related pay been rewarded since you started?
It suggests that maybe you have not been rewarded properly or adequately since joining the company or that when you first started your employer chanced his arm and paid you at a lower rate than the going rate at the time.


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## Sludge (14 Apr 2003)

*Managers who don't care.*

Hawthorn, sounds as if you are hurting?  Let me guess.
You work for a large company, you are never late for work, take your hour for your lunch never a moment more, don't take cigarette breaks, never on sick leave, stay back to help out when short staffed, you spot mistakes and errors that save your company money, come up with good ideas (that someone else takes the credit for) are decent and honest and a hard worker.
You have a poor manager, work alongside people who go sick on a regular basis, nothing is ever said to the slackers and the dossers. Oh and appraisals are a bit of a joke in your office.


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## Dearg Doom (15 Apr 2003)

*Re: Existing staff become part of the furniture.*



> Surely this type of carry on is illegal


Why? If I'm spectacularly useless at my job, I don't have a right to pay rises just because I've been useless for three years instead of one...


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## Cityexile (15 Apr 2003)

*Advice*

As you are training the new people, indicates a level of competence and that management hold you in a good level. Which probably pushes out the notion that you are a slacker etc..
Referring to your question, the advice I would give you , is say to management " It is common knowledge in the office the salary of the new new people, which as you know is more than what I get, even though they are been trained by me and doing the same job.." This is where you pause and say nothing (which is hard) and make him/her speak first. 
There might be a reasonable explanation or not
good luck


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## fighter (15 Apr 2003)

*Time for Action*

It's hard to comment with all the facts, but its sounds very probable that they could not attract new employees without paying them more. This would imply that you are not being paid the going rate. I had the same problem. I was over worked and under paid and managing 6 other people (all at management level). My response was to go to my employers fully armed with the facts. Write a comprehensive list of duties that you carry out, any new business that you have brought in, efficiencies that you implemented, increased margins and/or productivity. Do you have to monitor their work, do your duties fall into the category of a supervisory role. Be prepared they will try and get away with it, their not going to apologies for neglecting you or trying to pull one over, so know what you want and focus on that. Don't think about what happened up till now, just focus on what you want out of the discussions. If you come across as moany, it won't work. You have to come across as reasonable. If you don't like what they offer. Tell them that based on your assessment there offer appears unjustified and you would like them to reconsider. Don't make any rash decisions and try and get loads of exercise, stress and frustration can turn even the sanest person into a physco.


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## Tintagel (15 Apr 2003)

*Who is watching the appraisor?*

The problem with appraisals is that the appraisor in one department might give someone a 4 but the appraisor in another department would probably give that same person a 3. The person doing the appraisals should be properly trained and monitored.

I have come across a situation where the appraisor herself was often late for work, enjoyed smoking breaks alongside the other smokers and spent hours on personal phone calls and internet surfing. Oh! and had her favourites who always received a higher score.


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## XXXAnother PersonXXX (16 Apr 2003)

*Re: Who is watching the appraisor?*

Apraisels? - do people still fall for that bollox? - aren't they generally excuses for not giving you a pay increase?

I would suggest that you look for another job. When you've found one, you have scope to renegotiate. Companies will only pay you more if they are legally obliged, or you're walking out the door.


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## rainyday (16 Apr 2003)

*Re: Who is watching the appraisor?*



> When you've found one, you have scope to renegotiate.



This is rubbish - As a manager, if a staff comes to me with a better offer in their hand, I'll wish them best of luck in their new position. If somebody has made the decision to go, it's a waste of time to try to hold them with a few quid. They'll probably be gone in 3-6 months anyway, so might as well bite the bullet now.

This is not a sensible negotiation tactic.


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## Bearish (16 Apr 2003)

*Pay rise*

The tactic of going to an employer with a new offer in hand has worked for me on many occasions before.

It's a bit headstrong to lose good staff, with years of expereince, because of a small risk that they might leave at some point in the future.


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## XXXAnother PersonXXX (16 Apr 2003)

*Re: Pay rise*

Rainyday - are you any good at poker?


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## rainyday (16 Apr 2003)

*Re: Pay rise*

Hi AP - No, I'm not.

However, the difference here is that your career is not a game - the stakes are very high.

If you walk into your boss with another job offer in your hand, your boss is never going to think about you the same way again. 

When your boss is looking for a good candidate to promote, this will be a factor. When your boss is divvying up the 'bonus' budget, this will be a factor.

If you think you are underpaid, by all means, tell your boss & produce supporting evidence. If you want to leave & get another job, do so. But don't 'play the game' of bringing in the job offer just to get a salary increase.

Ireland is too small a world!


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## ClubMan (16 Apr 2003)

*Re: Pay rise*

Well the fact is that it may well work as a bargaining position in some cases and if you are willing to take the chance that your "bluff" may be called. I've never used it as such myself but have been asked what would it take me to stay when I announced my resignation. In all cases I had made my mind up so didn't engage in negotiations. However if I had been open to suggestion I might have reconsidered. That's life.


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## GeoffreyOD (16 Apr 2003)

*Spin!*

Rainyday your painting things the way you want them to be!
A job offer from another employer is proof that the employee is worth more than the value that the current employer places on them.
If you are selling a house you'll take an offer from the highest bidder but you are of the opinion that it is somehow dishonourable to sell your labour to the highest bidder.

Any reasonable manager is able to differentiate between wage negotiations and performance with regard to job spec. and would be appraising staff on the basis of the latter rather than the former.

I put it to you that you resent that an ever larger proportion of your departmental budget is spent on salaries for your employees and are just scaremongering just to disuade employees from approaching their managers to ask for a fair wage.  As a manager you put in your budget every year or quarter and find that you can't get that extra headcount or buy that extra piece of equipment if you pay your current staff slightly more so you have a vested interest in keeping salaries low.
You hate having to go to HR to try to get salaries increased and would rather keep wages low yourself rather than having to deal with HR.  Do you find yourself acting like everyone in your place is replacable just so that your most important staff don't get any notions as to their real value to the company?
Rainyday, Is that how it is for you?  Cos that's the way it works for any manager I've ever come accross.

Sorry Rainyday but I take exception to your post because it isn't the normally reasonable Rainyday speaking but Rainyday the 'Manager' posting under his username.


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## rainyday (16 Apr 2003)

*Re: Spin!*

Hi Geoffrey - You're completely wrong! I'm not a manager in my current role, so your amateur psychology attempts to look inside my mind and picture me negotiating with HR are pure fiction. I was simply explaining how I would have approached this situation, when I was in a management role.

I accept that I was putting the position from the manager point of view. But anyone who goes into a negotiation without considering what the other side is going to be thinking is a fool.


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## GeoffreyOD (16 Apr 2003)

*salary negotiation and appraisal*

Do you accept that salary negotiation in a company where the workforce is not organised has nothing to do with their performance in their current role or whether they qualify for bonuses or promotions.


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## rainyday (16 Apr 2003)

*Re: salary negotiation and appraisal*



> Do you accept that salary negotiation in a company where the workforce is not organised has nothing to do with their performance in their current role or whether they qualify for bonuses or promotions



No - not in any company that I've worked for. And I've worked in both union & non-union environments.


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## moi (16 Apr 2003)

*salary negotiation and appraisal*

First things first , you get what you negociate not what you're worth. Secondly companies only pay enough to keep you happy rarely never more.
If you feel you're being underpaid, don't moan or windge about it. Get off your This post will be deleted if not edited to remove bad language & re-negociate a new salary based on facts & examples of why you deserve an increase. If they refuse, smile say thanks & go looking elsewhere . Don't burn bridges.


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## rainyday (16 Apr 2003)

*Re: salary negotiation and appraisal*



> If you are selling a house you'll take an offer from the highest bidder but you are of the opinion that it is somehow dishonourable to sell your labour to the highest bidder.



Hi Geoffrey - It would be very dangerous to take the same approach to selling your house & selling your labour. Once you have sold your house, you have no further relationship with the buyer. 

Once you have sold your labour, you have a relationship with the 'buyer' your employer, for 8 hours a day, five days a week, 48 weeks of the year until you change jobs or retire. You need to manage ALL aspects of this relationship, not just the financial ones.

I don't think it is dishonourable to sell your labour to the highest bidder. I do think that it's a bit dumb to choose the 'highest bidder' solely on that basis. You need to take a holistic view of your employer, the atmosphere, the culture, their business stability etc etc. There is no point in getting a great salary for 4 months and then finding yourself on the dole if the company goes bust from over-paying their staff.


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## XXXAnother PersonXXX (16 Apr 2003)

*Re: Pay rise*



> However, the difference here is that your career is not a game - the stakes are very high.



Well even that depends on the individual. I don't think a career (or rather working for a company, making other people rich) is such high stakes in the whole scheme of things. I would regard this as a minor risk. Each to their own I suppose.



> If you walk into your boss with another job offer in your hand, your boss is never going to think about you the same way again.



Yeah, maybe your boss will stop thinking that you're a gullable fool!



> When your boss is looking for a good candidate to promote, this will be a factor. When your boss is divvying up the 'bonus' budget, this will be a factor.



The squeeky wheel gets the oil. If you want something, ask for it. (This is even in the Bible!). If you don't get it, leave and find it elsewhere. Discontentment and negativity isn't going to do anyone any favours.




> If you think you are underpaid, by all means, tell your boss & produce supporting evidence. If you want to leave & get another job, do so. But don't 'play the game' of bringing in the job offer just to get a salary increase.
> 
> Ireland is too small a world!



It's business! - Businesses do things like this every day. Businesses are there to make money, not give it away.

Why else would a manager give someone more money, unless they have to? (Maybe it's different in the civil service or 50s Ireland)


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## rainyday (16 Apr 2003)

*Re: Pay rise*



> The squeeky wheel gets the oil. If you want something, ask for it. (This is even in the Bible!). If you don't get it, leave and find it elsewhere. Discontentment and negativity isn't going to do anyone any favours.



Hi AP - I absolutely agree with this, and I didn't post anything to the contrary. If you think you're worth more money, go and make your case for it.

But don't go in with a job offer in one hand and a smug smile on your face & expect your manager to throw a few grand at you. You just might get a nasty surprise.


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## geoffreyod (16 Apr 2003)

*aren't you contradicting yourself.*

You said earlier that if someone comes in to you looking for a salary increase based on what another company is willing to offer for their services that "When your boss is looking for a good candidate to promote, this will be a factor. When your boss is divvying up the 'bonus' budget, this will be a factor" - This is the basis of a very short hearing in favour of the employee with a rights commissioner.

Then you proceed to argue that in order to preserve your relationship with your employer you shouldn't be too forceful when negotiating for a salary increase.  
Don't you think the relationship is soured by the employer refusing to pay a reasonable wage and de-motivated employees aren't productive employees?

Presenting an alternate tender for your services should never be considered as 'burning bridges'.

I only ever hear the 'pay is only a small factor of the whole package' arguement being pushed by companies who know they are paying less than the market average.


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## rainyday (16 Apr 2003)

*Re: aren't you contradicting yourself.*



> Then you proceed to argue that in order to preserve your relationship with your employer you shouldn't be too forceful when negotiating for a salary increase.



No, I didn't Geoffrey - Please don't put words into my mouth. Be as forceful as you like. 

The only recommendation I gave is that you don't walk into your boss with a 'better offer' in your hand, if what you really want is a better salary in current job. 

If you want a better salary in your current job, go ask for it. If you want to move job, go off and get another offer. It's quite simple.

If you complicate it by getting other offers when you really want to stay in your current job, you are;

- pissing off the other employer, who has put a lot of time/effort into recruiting you
- pissing off your current employer too.

I've never heard of any 'rights commissioner' cases relating to this kind of scenario.


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## ClubMan (17 Apr 2003)

*Re: aren't you contradicting yourself.*

*If you complicate it by getting other offers when you really want to stay in your current job, you are;

- pissing off the other employer, who has put a lot of time/effort into recruiting you
- pissing off your current employer too.*

Perhaps - but sometimes that may be what it takes.


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## XXXAnother PersonXXX (17 Apr 2003)

*Re: aren't you contradicting yourself.*

Rainyday, are you a civil servant? (or maybe the taoiseach   ?)


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## rainyday (17 Apr 2003)

*Re: aren't you contradicting yourself.*



> Perhaps - but sometimes that may be what it takes



Yep, I realise that it's possible that this might be the right tactic in certain limited circumstances.

It might also be just what it takes to push the job-hunter out to a new employer that he/she didn't really want.



> Rainyday, are you a civil servant? (or maybe the taoiseach



Neither, though some of my best friends are civil servants...


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## Hawthorn (17 Apr 2003)

*I think I will walk.*

My employer is one of the financial institutions and has plenty of money. I am often told that I am a great worker and that they are pleased with my work. In fact the assistant manager has stepped back from the day to day running of the office  and usually asks me to let her know "how things are going". I now realise that I am her poorly paid assistant basically doing the job that she should be doing. Everyone says that I should stop taking on the extra responsibility as I am not getting paid for it. Unfortunately it is in my nature to keep things moving during the day.


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## Publicly aware (17 Apr 2003)

*...*

Hi Hawthorn

I can empathise, but from a different angle - despite what XXXAnother personXXX has to say about public servants.  I work very hard at my job. I have had a number of managers actively seeking to have me on the staff. To be honest, I couldn't give a damn. Why? Because, I don't get any extra salary for a transfer. I don't get any extra salary for being recognised as a "great asset" to the workplace. Hey, I'm a public-sector employee! One manager has asked me 5 times to opt for his workplace this year already. I'm biding my time.  I will do what is best for me personally while, at the same time, recognising that circumstances change very quickly in the public sector. I learned a long time ago that the most important thing is to be happy with your life outside work -  everything else is incidental. 

However, you're in the private sector. You shouldn't have to put up with this nonsense. Be assertive. Write down all the good points  - all the things you have done in the last years(s). Re-read them. Tell yourself that you deserve to treated better. You're a person of great talent and you are being abused by your boss. I know that people will have more respect for you if you stand up for yourself. As long as your are willing to be a doormat, you will be taken advantage of by your manager.

Don't be a doormat for a weak and ineffective manager who is basically a bully. 

You clearly deserve much better than this. When you have written down everything and rehearsed everything -have a chat with your boss. Be assertive.  Do not go on the defensive. Inform her you want a salary review. Inform her that you intend to raise the matter at a higher level. This should definitely set her alarm bells running. 

You know what you are worth - tell her or her boss!

Good luck


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## XXXAnother PersonXXX (17 Apr 2003)

*Re: ...*

One other point I'd like to throw in.

Anything that is agreed, whichever tactic you decide to use, get it in writing. Don't settle for 'Oh, we'll see in your next pay review' or 'The company is struggling at the moment, next year you'll get more money/promotion/company car'. Anything they offer should be implemented with immediate effect, or even better, backdated. 

I think it pays (literally) to be cynical in a stituation like this. If it's talk, it's generally lies. Then again, I'm cynical about most things  

Let us know how you get on. Pick a nice sunny day when everyone is in a good mood.


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## zag (18 Apr 2003)

*Re: ...*

I would opt for the say it out straight to your manager approach.

If I was in that situation, I would ask them (when they are busy) for some time to discuss something. This gives them advance warning that there is something important on your mind.  It also partially reduces the risk of a huge big blow-up between the two of you if one of other of you gets annoyed during the discussion as you have both had time to think.

Then simply go along and say that you are not happy that the new recruits are on the same or higher salary level than you.  Not happy at all.

Pause to let it sink in.

Then proceed to say that if the employer thinks the new people are worth that much and you have experience and are training them in to the positions you by definition are worth more than they are.  If you were worth less than them would you be passing on your skills ?

Then ask what action they might take that would improve things.  It *might* simply be the case that the employer has had to pay this much due to market forces and has simply neglected (perhaps on purpose) to increase your salary to reflect the market.  Perhaps they are hoping you won't notice or mind.  Let them know you have noticed and you do mind.

As above, get something concrete and in writing.

z


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## tedd (21 Apr 2003)

*Re: ...*

I agree with zag.

If you find it hard to have this sort of conversation, get someone you trust and do a "role play" with them. Tell them to ask you all the hard questions you're afraid of from your supervisor. You would be amazed at the edge this will give ou when you are in the real situation.

tedd


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