# Will Local Authorities collect the Household Charge by going door to door?



## Leper (9 Apr 2012)

There is much talk of how many residences are in the country and how many of them are liable for the household charge.  It doesnt matter whether there are 1.5 million or 20.5 million dwellings. The household charge will have to be collected.

It isn't going to happen by people on forums screaming that the charge should be paid or radio and tv pleading by TDs giving their reasons.

Wars are won or lost by the infantry.  The local authorities will have to employ collectors who will travel door to door and prosecute the people who wont pay.  There is no other way. It is similiar to the situation in the sixties when radio and television licences were introduced.

All the cackling of whether the charge is justified or not is now a side issue.  The local authorities must act.  Some job vacancies coming up folks? And with high commissions? Might suit retired people.  Get your CVs ready.


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## Padraigb (9 Apr 2012)

cashier said:


> Brave will be the man who takes on this job


No jobs for women, then?

Why should the job require courage?


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## jhegarty (9 Apr 2012)

Would cost more to collect than it would take it.

The anti-change campaign would just tell everyone to tell the collectors that they are tenants.


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## truthseeker (9 Apr 2012)

jhegarty said:


> Would cost more to collect than it would take it.



As if that would stop the government. Since when has wasting money ever been a deterrent?

@Padraigb - surely its obvious why one would need to be brave? Because they are likely to face a raft of abuse from people against paying it. In case you havent noticed this has been one of the hottest topics recently on a lot of online forums, letters to newspapers, conversations among people - there has been a lot of strong feeling on it. Half the liable population have refused to pay. I cant honestly believe that you would be unaware of this? Seriously?


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## ajapale (9 Apr 2012)

Leper said:


> The local authorities will have  to employ collectors who will travel door to door and prosecute the  people who wont pay.



Since this is a _*property precursor tax*_ levied on the _*house owner*_ and not the house occupier I have by doubts how effective door to door collection schemes might be.

Ive posted here before but I think the government would be better off designing, building and operating a proper electronic relational data base.

So data base designers, developers, operators, consultants have your CV's ready!


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## Padraigb (9 Apr 2012)

truthseeker said:


> @Padraigb - surely its obvious why one would need to be brave? Because they are likely to face a raft of abuse from people against paying it. In case you havent noticed this has been one of the hottest topics recently on a lot of online forums, letters to newspapers, conversations among people - there has been a lot of strong feeling on it. Half the liable population have refused to pay. I cant honestly believe that you would be unaware of this? Seriously?


I am well aware the the household charge is an unpopular imposition. But if somebody is employed by a local authority to ask people to pay it, the job should not require particular courage.


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## ajapale (9 Apr 2012)

As mentioned above the "door to door" approach is likely to be a waste of time because this is a tax on _*property owners*_ and not _*property occupiers*_.

If local or central government were to launch such a (foolish imo) campaign then the employees/agents going door to door would need to be as brave as the reviled TV inspectors and would need to have some statutory status. They would also need to be trained with proper objectives and targets.

As another poster mentioned many people will simply answer I _*"dont know who owns the property!*_".

Better spending limited resources in building a proper functioning data base as described above.


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## truthseeker (9 Apr 2012)

Padraigb said:


> But if somebody is employed by a local authority to ask people to pay it, the job should not require particular courage.



If you cant see why this would be then I just dont know what to say to you.


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## ajapale (9 Apr 2012)

Whatever about _*courage *_employees/agents charged with such a foolish (imo) task would need to be properly _*trained*_ to deal carry out the task.

Perhaps the job could be contracted out to An Post or better still out to the private sector?

I reckon the amount of courage required would be somewhat more that a courier/postal delivery person, something equal to a tv licence inspector or social welfare inspector and not quiet as much as a bailiff or repo person.


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## truthseeker (9 Apr 2012)

ajapale said:


> I reckon the amount of courage required would be somewhat more that a courier/postal delivery person, something equal to a tv licence inspector or social welfare inspector and not quiet as much as a bailiff or repo person.



I think it would be a similar amount of courage needed by an FF politician to call door to door campaigning for the last election. None did in my area anyway. 

I think it would be more than needed by a tv licence inspector, the HC is more unpopular than the tv licence charge.

As already pointed out by apajale anyway, completely silly idea regardless as its not a tax on the occupier.


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## PaddyBloggit (9 Apr 2012)

Surely the CSO has a database of all houses/property in the country?

I'm sure a way could be figured out how to use that database properly.

The exercise of calling to doors may not be cost effective initially but if property owners get caught in the net then future charges will make it cost effective 'cos there's only one place the HC is going ... and that's up!


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## ajapale (9 Apr 2012)

PaddyBloggit said:


> Surely the CSO has a database of all houses/property in the country?
> 
> I'm sure a way could be figured out how to use that database properly.



I have made the point elsewhere but the problem is a lack of understanding of what a modern electronic relational (GIS) data base involves. When its done correctly its great but when its not done correctly it is an unmitigated disaster.



ajapale said:


> I think its important to know what we mean by a "_*database*_" in this context.
> 
> In this context what is required is a comprehensive properly constructed  electronic relational database that is maintained, searchable and up to  date.
> 
> ...


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## gipimann (9 Apr 2012)

The local authorities stopped door to door rent collection years ago because of attacks on staff and theft of money.

The LAs are hardly likely to re-introduce door to door collections in this era of Health & Safety.


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## Leper (9 Apr 2012)

Like I said earlier, wars are won by the infantry usually with house to house fighting.  It is the same with the Household Charge.  It is a formiddable task, but it has to be done.  There is no easy way.

Many here wont remember the television and radio licence door to door campaigns of the 1960s.  You even had to have a separate licence for your car radio.

At the time there were dissenters who wanted more Irish spoken on radio and television and refused point-blank to pay up.  Whether we like it or not a door-to-door long term campaign will have to be fought on the Household Charge and people will have to be prosecuted. Otherwise, the charge might as well be dropped.


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## truthseeker (9 Apr 2012)

Leper said:


> Many here wont remember the television and radio licence door to door campaigns of the 1960s.



I wasnt around in the 1960s, but I am assured by those who were that Ireland was a different place in those days, and a lot safer for the likes of door to door bullying campaigns.


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## bullworth (9 Apr 2012)

truthseeker said:


> If you cant see why this would be then I just dont know what to say to you.



I wouldn't know what to say to him either. Such collectors would be a million times more hated than say for example wheel clampers. And some wheel clampers are in wheelchairs now . One in Dublin got hit with a lump hammer recently and is paralysed permanently. They have to wear stab proof vests etc.
Anyone going from door to door needs proper training.


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## truthseeker (9 Apr 2012)

bullworth said:


> I wouldn't know what to say to him either. Such collectors would be a million times more hated than say for example wheel clampers. And some wheel clampers are in wheelchairs now . One in Dublin got hit with a lump hammer recently and is paralysed permanently. They have to wear stab proof vests etc.
> Anyone going from door to door needs proper training.



Thats terrible bullworth, but I completely agree with you - such collectors would be more hated.

Im genuinely taken aback that someone would not be able to see that.


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## Guns N Roses (9 Apr 2012)

Leper said:


> Some job vacancies coming up folks? And with high commissions? Might suit retired people. Get your CVs ready.


 
It's more likely that they will redeploy existing staff to collect the Household Charges. There have been no new jobs created in the Public Sector for quite a few years now.


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## Jazz01 (11 Apr 2012)

Main thing about this idea of  "door to door" collections is that it's open to abuse... How can you trust the person at the door is a legit person - someone from local authority? They have ID - anyone know what the ID should look like? 

Just another "fiasco" in relation to the HC if this door to door collection goes ahead...


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## bullworth (11 Apr 2012)

cashier said:


> What happened to all this talk about contacting the ESB to get the required information??



You do not have to be the owner of a property to have a bill in your name. What if the ESB bill is in the tenants' name ? An ESB bill does not prove ownership.
Isn't there a land registry with all this information contained within already which is updated whenever someone buys or sells Irish land/property otherwise how else do people prove ownership to a buyer when selling or to a bank for mortgaging etc ? Why couldnt' that have been used ? Is it not computerized ?


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## ajapale (11 Apr 2012)

Several OT posts deleted.

Topic reminder:


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## Leper (12 Apr 2012)

Most of us are talking in circles on why something should not be done. Whatever way we look on the Household Charge situation there is only one way in which it can be collected and that is by cold-calling door-to-door. Anything else is waffle.

I am not saying that the Council Household Charge Agents should be accepting cash on door-steps. I am saying that the occupant of the house who is the owner should be informed that if you do not pay up within a given time-frame, you will be prosecuted. If necessary, prosecutions will have to take place. Follow-up on foot will have to take place with absent owners. The councils are charged with imposing the Household Charge not with the moral aspect. A judge in court has the "call" on that. You always have Conscientious Objectors for whatever reason, valid or not.

This is not an impossible task. If it were impossible we would not have TV licence inspectors. If we had not TV licence inspectors with power to prosecute very few people would buy a TV licence.

Look around there are several government money making rackets legally being entertained e.g. the NCT test. The Household Charge is just another and it will be followed by Water Rates, reintroduction of House Rates etc etc.

Door-to-door is the only way which will reap payments.


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## ajapale (12 Apr 2012)

cashier said:


> ...and how many people haven't been prosecuted for not having a TV licence, there must be thousands of people who evade the system
> 
> Door to door won't work, people will refuse to answer their doors, they will be away at work, not at home, it will be an impossible task.



Door to Door won't work very well because the _*property precursor tax*_ is a tax on _*household owners*_ and not on _*household occupiers*_.

The notion of door to door collections is also an old fashioned and increasing less used option. Years ago you had door to door insurance agents, rent collectors, milk collections, charity collections, money lenders, etc. This is not the way people do business anymore.


As mentioned above the government/local authorities would be much better off desigining and operating a properly constructed relational integrated electronic database of household owners/liable households and progressing the collection process in that way before engaging in aggravating and futile door to door collections/inspections/investigations/reminders.


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## 44brendan (12 Apr 2012)

I don't see this happening. In my view, it was a gut response from Phil Hogan. It really makes no sennse and is likely to cost far more than ever would be collected.


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## terrontress (12 Apr 2012)

A door to door collector could result in landlords paying up as they don't wish to annoy their private tenants. People are more likely to face down the collectors themselves but the tenant will probably tell the truth and will be annoyed as they thought their rent is going toward the household charge.


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## oldnick (12 Apr 2012)

Actually, I think it is good if tenants were made more aware that there is such a thing as property charges, and that as a consequence rents must increase. If it needs collectors to make tenants aware ,so much the better. 

Many tenants know nothing or little about property charges, especially tenants from overseas. Also tenants rarely consider that each extra cost to a landlord eventually drip feeds down to the tenant. 

Letting property is a business and it is insane for anyone to expect a business to continually operate at a loss. Unfortunately, many people in this country are insane in their attitude towards landlords.
("lets tax landlords but they mustn't pass it on to the tenant"" . 
Can you imagine "let's charge shops higher VAT,rates, taxes etc but the retailer must keep the prices down" !!)

Even more unfortunate is the fact that there are thousands of landlords who absorb losses - like these charges -rather than just quit the business, which they would do if they were operating a shop, factory etc.

I gave all my tenants an article from a newspaper which stated that a landlords organisation was advocating passing the charges direct to the tenant. i wrote that this year I would not do this ,but obviously I would do so in next years increased rent ("Sorry guys -it won't be me increasing the rent ,it'll be the govnt").

I make it very clear that half of every penny, after all other many many costs, they pay me is given to the govnt. And that most certainly includes NPPR and property charges.


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## ajapale (12 Apr 2012)

Tenants/Occupiers are liable for _*refuse charges*_ and will be liable for _*water charges*_.

Household Owners and Landlords (not tenants) are liable for the _*precursor property tax*_ and how they deal with that tax is a matter for them working within the landlord/tenant leglislation of course.


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