# The new normal



## seamus m (15 Jan 2021)

With the Taniste today announcing to possibly changing of the laws for  some people being allowed to work from home after corona, (a blessing in my eyes a  if your lucky enough to be one) where else can we let covid improve our lives.Surely next up has to be college where a lot of courses where students have only 13 to 20 hours a week could be permanently done from home or certainly mostly done remotely reducing serious burden on students and  more importantly their families.I mean even a 2 day week in school would almost make anywhere commutable.


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## Purple (15 Jan 2021)

I think that working from home could lead to a big increase in mental health issues and domestic abuse. For some people work is their only social outlet. For others it's their only relief from an abusive partner. For those lucky enough to be in happy stable relationships and/or have the luxury of enough space in their home it could be great but for others it could be a disaster.

How many people have met their partner/spouse through work? How many have made their friends through work? How many shops, bars and restaurants will close if a big chunk of people are working from home? This could cause an increase in societal inequality.


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## Ceist Beag (15 Jan 2021)

I don't know about that Seamus. I think we need to be careful what we wish for here. 3rd level education is about much more than the course they are doing. It's the first step away from home, yet with the comfort of still having a home to return to. These are great years in so many ways. If this were changed to having students work from home and no longer being required to go into the campus this would completely change the experience imho.
TBH I would have the same reservations about work for many young people. The early years at work are as much about social life as work. They are as much about friendships, parties, etc. If everyone starts working from home it completely changes all of that.
I'm not saying we shouldn't look at these options but I think we should be careful about changing things too quickly.


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## Sophrosyne (15 Jan 2021)

It is not for everyone of course and certain work cannot be carried out from home.

However, it think that working from home will and in some cases, already has, gathered traction. It has become "a thing", my grandchildren tell me.

There might be a combination of remote and workplace based teams.

For most people, where they live – including the country they live in - is not down to personal choice, but rather to where their job is.

We may, in future, see less centralization and trade and industry will adapt as it always has.

Most likely it will be a gradual progression.


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## Leo (15 Jan 2021)

So far, the wording I've seen only suggests employees will be given the right to request WFH and to have that request 'considered fairly', there's no suggestion they will have any right to. There is mention of extra overheads on employers facilitating staff working from home, depending on how far they go, they might put some employers off.


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## odyssey06 (15 Jan 2021)

Companies may also be wary of precedence e.g. if they allow one person in the role to WFH, then company would not be in a position to refuse it to other people in same role.


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## seamus m (15 Jan 2021)

TBH was more on the saving on the cost of accommodation for students. I'd imagine life  lessons and partying will still be arranged .Its hard to have to justify or provide for student in Dublin for 13 hours spread over 5 days .


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## Brendan Burgess (16 Jan 2021)

It's going to be a nightmare for employers

If they refuse to allow someone to work from home, that person will take a case against them.

If the employer wins, it will have cost them a lot of time and money in arguing the case.

If they lose, they will face severe penalties. 

It should be solely up to an employer to decide where they conduct their business.  If an employee wants to work from home then they can get a job with an employer who offers it as part of the contract for employment. 

Brendan


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## Clamball (16 Jan 2021)

I am happy and my company is happy that we can do a great job working from home.  So I seriously want to keep an element of this when the virus goes away.   I think the biggest gain is no commute.  It is great for the environment, less traffic, less fumes, more time.  
The more time is wonderful, more and better sleep (no more waking up to an alarm).  When work is over I can be out with friends instantly.  More time to cook and clean, no longer exhausted after working and commuting.
I would have loved this when the kids were small, walking them to school in leisure, popping down to collect them if they were ill.  Not taking sleeping babies from their cribs to drop to crèches.  Getting 45 mins to see them play a match during second level.  
The main driver is technology, sure we always had phones and laptops but it was only with cloud computing and better technology that we got truly work anywhere independent.  Our company 3 years ago updated all our technology, so last year on March 12 we walked out with laptops and headsets seamlessly.   When I sit in my front room I feel the same as I do at work, contactable, collaborative, working.
Yes, I do agree that new to the workplace younger staff do need to be onsite to learn & network.  

University is much more than attend lecturers and pass exams but it is massively expensive for families to send their kid away to Dublin for 4 years.  The “college experience” is so important nowadays.  It can be like a 4 year summer camp.  But students and families have realised it can be done remotely, so I can see big changes.  First of all overseas students will vote with their WiFi and “attend” courses remotely in prestigious universities rather than come to Ireland.  There will be a permanent drop in revenue for Irish Universities.  The better universities and courses will see loads of opportunities in remote learning and will offer it more.  Others will insist on all lectures being available remotely so they can work and attend college at the same time.  I can see students who will be willing to compress courses into a shorter timeframe to graduate quicker if they are available remotely and on line.  The quality of some courses and colleges have been slipping in recent years so I would see poorer colleges struggling to retain students.   And I am seeing universities turning into M-T 4 day week events as most kids want to be home every weekend for work and socialising.  How this will play out will be interesting to see.

There are a lot of cafes, restaurants and shops grown up around large businesses but I can see a lot moving to the suburbs to cater for the work from home people.  They will follow where the people are.


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## Purple (18 Jan 2021)

Clamball said:


> There are a lot of cafes, restaurants and shops grown up around large businesses but I can see a lot moving to the suburbs to cater for the work from home people. They will follow where the people are.


Do you really think that people will leave their house to go and buy a coffee for €3 instead of just buying a Nespresso machine and getting one for 50 cents? There will be a big chunk taken out of the consumer economy and it won't be replaced. The same young people who will end up paying for all of this will be the same ones who are hardest hit economically.


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## Purple (29 Jan 2021)

Blue Money Day said:


> I see this as a win-win situation. A recent survey in the US found that, on average, an employee will save $3,500 per annum and an employer will save $11,000 per employee per annum.
> Office space will be much smaller. Office blocks could be converted to social housing. Or levelled and rebuilt as social housing. This will go a long way to solving the housing crisis and may steady house prices.
> Google has converted new office space in Dublin to a food market.
> Office workers (as were) can stay at home to read/write emails and talk on the phone rather than commute to an office to do the exact same thing.
> ...


What about the people who work in the cafe's and shops and restaurants? What about the hundreds of thousands of jobs that will be lost? 
What about all the tax revenue which will be lost? 
Do we cut public services or do we cut public sector pay by the amount of money those people are saving by working from home? 
Do we greatly reduce public transport or massively increase the subsidy it receives?
What about the people who live in small houses and apartments who don't have the space and infrastructure to work from home?

The discussion around the up-side or working from home is very blinkered towards the college educated middle classes.


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## odyssey06 (29 Jan 2021)

Purple said:


> What about the people who work in the cafe's and shops and restaurants? What about the hundreds of thousands of jobs that will be lost?
> What about all the tax revenue which will be lost?
> Do we cut public services or do we cut public sector pay by the amount of money those people are saving by working from home?
> Do we greatly reduce public transport or massively increase the subsidy it receives?
> ...



There's a bit of a tipping point really. If we could get rush hour levels of commuters and traffic down to about 60-75% of what it was in January 2019, and keep it at that, it would take all the strain off the transport system and mean planned expensive upgrades may not be needed.
There would still be significant demand in city centres for services.
If the level drops to where we have empty buses and DARTs and LUAS during rush hour, then that's a different issue - but would it get that far?

We will be picking up the bill for carbon emissions if we carry on as we are.

What will people WFH spend their money on now that they aren't commuting \ paying for lunches out?
Tax revenue will be lost in the city centre, but why won't spending elsewhere make up for it?
Coffee shops and eateries and services in the 'village' suburbs of Dublin and its hinterland will benefit.

A 20 something college educated middle class person may still want to go to college, work in an office!


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## Purple (29 Jan 2021)

odyssey06 said:


> There's a bit of a tipping point really. If we could get rush hour levels of commuters and traffic down to about 60-75% of what it was in January 2019, and keep it at that, it would take all the strain off the transport system and mean planned expensive upgrades may not be needed.
> There would still be significant demand in city centres for services.
> If the level drops to where we have empty buses and DARTs and LUAS during rush hour, then that's a different issue - but would it get that far?
> 
> We will be picking up the bill for carbon emissions if we carry on as we are.


Good point ref carbon emissions. 



odyssey06 said:


> What will people WFH spend their money on now that they aren't commuting \ paying for lunches out?
> Tax revenue will be lost in the city centre, but why won't spending elsewhere make up for it?
> Coffee shops and eateries and services in the 'village' suburbs of Dublin and its hinterland will benefit.


The likelihood is that if they are not spending their money on lunches and coffee and impulse shopping after work they will mainly spend it online or save it. Fewer people will bother leaving the house to buy coffee but Nestlé will make a nice few bob selling Nespresso capsules.


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## odyssey06 (29 Jan 2021)

Purple said:


> The likelihood is that if they are not spending their money on lunches and coffee and impulse shopping after work they will mainly spend it online or save it. Fewer people will bother leaving the house to buy coffee but Nestlé will make a nice few bob selling Nespresso capsules.



Nespresso capsules *and* nespresso machines
 - and most work places have coffee machines already.

And saving for what though? Home improvements... holidays... new car... nicer house. 
It will still get spent and we don't want people getting into debt to afford those things.

The government gets tax revenues from online shopping too.
On Amazon purchases the VAT comes to Irish government. Address Pal purchases have customs charges.
More delivery drivers will be needed, both for online shopping and home eating.

There will be disruption, shifts in patterns of where money is spent and on what and you are right I think in what it won't be spent on.
But I disagree in that it will still be spent in different patterns.
Money not spent on lunches out in town, some of that will flow to dinners delivered at home, nicer bottles of wine to accompany it etc.


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## Purple (29 Jan 2021)

odyssey06 said:


> There will be disruption, shifts in patterns of where money is spent and on what and you are right I think in what it won't be spent on.
> But I disagree in that it will still be spent in different patterns.


It will still be spent but it won't circulate as much around the economy. Some of the margin that was left circulating will leave the country. There's a reason that Jeff Bezos isn't short of money.

The people who have been impacted most from the lockdown will also be impacted most from these changes in spending patterns; younger lower skilled lower paid people.


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## odyssey06 (29 Jan 2021)

Purple said:


> It will still be spent but it won't circulate as much around the economy. Some of the margin that was left circulating will leave the country. There's a reason that Jeff Bezos isn't short of money.
> The people who have been impacted most from the lockdown will also be impacted most from these changes in spending patterns; younger lower skilled lower paid people.



And some of the money that was leaving the country to Starbucks, Costa etc may now rebound to supermarkets and local coffee shops.
All employers of the cohort you have listed, as are delivery companies.
Irish bricks and mortar stores will have to up their delivery and click and collect offerings.

If there's a shift in living patterns away from Dublin, then it will make it cheaper for that cohort to find homes in their own areas, e.g. take East Wall as an example, instead of being priced out by new developments to house IFSC workers.

Undoubtedly there will be winners and losers with the shift in spending patterns, and whether someone wants to work from home is as much about where they are in their stage in life as their educational background.
I'm just not convinced the Irish Exchequer will be a net loser, though Dublin City Council could be.


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## Purple (29 Jan 2021)

odyssey06 said:


> I'm just not convinced the Irish Exchequer will be a net loser, though Dublin City Council could be.


The distribution of the LPT will have to be adjusted. For every €1 spend per person on local services in Dublin there's €90 spent in Leitrim. If there is a greater balance of population and economic activity then there will be a rebalancing of State spending.


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## Leo (29 Jan 2021)

Blue Money Day said:


> “Commuterville” which is normally a ghost town will come to life. Instead of being busy with traffic during rush hour only, there will be people there and life during the day. Cafes, etc., will open up.



There's already rumblings of high demand in the more desirable towns from the new remote workers leaving Dublin pushing prices above what the locals can afford. Difficult to really assess how this will play out in the longer term with such low volumes of property changing hands at the moment. 

Later on then, companies that embraced remote working are likely to start lowering salaries for new hires to reflect more staff living and working in cheaper locations. 

So much of what will become the norm is as yet unknown and will take time to play out. Lots of one-of houses in the country could be an environmental disaster, a lot of our towns would require significant investment in infrastructure and services to cope with a sizeable influx, and you get less value for money doing lots of that kind of work at small scale.

It will be very interesting to watch this all play out, this is a once in a lifetime opportunity to redefine how we live. No doubt, without a national strategy, some local authorities will do well while others make a complete mess of it.


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## Merowig (29 Jan 2021)

Moving part of the economy online now will increase competition and could bring prices down.
More people will feel comfortable to buy stuff online and to compare prices - even with offerings from other countries who offer delivery to Ireland.
Was looking at a toaster / kettle - Brown Thomas asks double the price of other shops for the exact same item...
Still planning my bathrooms and basically all the bathroom taps and sanitary ware, the kitchen sink and kitchen tap will come out of Germany, the flooring ordered is French, the tiles ordered for the main bathroom are from Italy, carpets will be likely British - and the workers who will install all of the stuff are Romanians. Only the kitchen will be manufactured in Ireland (but I know someone who got their kitchen from Romania...).


I like working form home - before it was two days per week and now constantly.  I save a lot of time  by not commuting and have time to do other things as well.  Also saving money - no more money spent on breakfast in the office or on some spontaneous shopping in the evening or going for some take away on the way home...

On the minus side a definitive lack of socializing - but that is mainly as well due to the restrictions. I expect prices for restaurants, holidays, concerts etc to rise after the pandemic - as demand will be high and some will have gone bust which lowers supply.


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## RedOnion (29 Jan 2021)

Merowig said:


> Still planning my bathrooms and basically all the bathroom taps and sanitary ware, the kitchen sink and kitchen tap will come out of Germany, the flooring ordered is French, the tiles ordered for the main bathroom are from Italy, carpets will be likely British - and the workers who will install all of the stuff are Romanians.


Is that any different to what you might have done pre-Covid?


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## odyssey06 (29 Jan 2021)

Purple said:


> The distribution of the LPT will have to be adjusted. For every €1 spend per person on local services in Dublin there's €90 spent in Leitrim. If there is a greater balance of population and economic activity then there will be a rebalancing of State spending.



It's high time Leitrim stood on its own hind legs.


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## joe sod (29 Jan 2021)

Purple said:


> The discussion around the up-side or working from home is very blinkered towards the college educated middle classes.


Also alot of people WFH now may only be doing it as long as the corona lockdown lasts when the government subsidises are still there. Maybe as companies  come under financial pressure they might decide they don't need all these WFH workers especially if they are not particularly skilled. They could just be a legacy of office based work which now  they can do without. 
Remember the "4th industrial revolution "is also about automating office based jobs, it's not all about driverless cars which is proving to be technically very difficult still. 
Also is there a danger that teachers and other professionals are hollowing out their own professions by insisting on WFh. I think they are being very short sighted


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## Merowig (29 Jan 2021)

not sure RedOnion - hard to say - previously I planned to get sanitary ware from a shop in Dublin and I wanted to check as well out shops in Northern Ireland - for the installation to use guys from the shop or recommended by the shop - that all changed

Peoples spending habits changed a lot and likely won't revert completely then this is over








						Household savings hit record level of €125 billion
					

Savers amassed an extra €14.2 billion in deposit accounts last year, according to the latest figures from the Central Bank.




					www.rte.ie
				






			https://www.centralbank.ie/docs/default-source/publications/economic-letters/the-impact-of-covid-19-on-consumer-spending.pdf
		



> Those most likely to have disproportionately curtailed their spending since March 2020 and to have been in a position to accumulate savings are also those with relatively low marginal propensities to consume. This means that the boost to consumption when the pandemic is over may be lower than would be the case if the shock had been equally distributed across households. There is also considerable uncertainty as to where and how quickly these savings will be spent, which will have significant implications for the recovery. For example, will the savings accumulated as a result of public health restrictions be spent in the areas that were closed, including restaurants and hotels? Figure 7 shows that home improvements and future holidays feature highly in households’ intentions while building savings is the most likely use. A potential avenue for these savings could be down payments on residential property mortgages
> (...)











						Kick-starting Infrastructure in Ireland post COVID-19
					

In February 2018, the Government launched Project Ireland 2040 – Ireland’s long-term strategy for public investment, underpinned by a 10 -year, €116bn National Development Plan (“NDP”).




					www.ey.com
				



Wonder if there are plans to review the NDP


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## Merowig (29 Jan 2021)

joe sod said:


> Also alot of people WFH now may only be doing it as long as the corona lockdown lasts when the government subsidises are still there. Maybe as companies  come under financial pressure they might decide they don't need all these WFH workers especially if they are not particularly skilled. They could just be a legacy of office based work which now  they can do without.
> Remember the "4th industrial revolution "is also about automating office based jobs, it's not all about driverless cars which is proving to be technically very difficult still.
> Also is there a danger that teachers and other professionals are hollowing out their own professions by insisting on WFh. I think they are being very short sighted


What is the connection between working from home and Corona subsidies? Corona subsidies are not given to all companies.


Companies usually do not pay office workers just for fun.  Automation will surely impact as well white collar workers but also create a lift and shift and new jobs will appear as part of any automation drive.


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## joe sod (17 Sep 2021)

Looks like the "new normal" is coming to an end on Monday and the "old normal" is returning with a vengeance as many office workers are now being required to return to the workplace on Monday. Of course WFH will continue for many for part of their working week but the claims by some that this was the "new normal" a year ago look like they were widely exaggerated


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## ClubMan (20 Sep 2021)

The company that I work for (just until the end of the week now) has c. 20,000 employees worldwide and thought that now was a good idea to introduce mandatory individual forms for employees applying for WFH and only allowing up to 2 days of same per week. And this in spite of record productivity and financial results over the past two years.    Imagine the cost of processing these forms for even a fraction of 20K employees... BS like this is part of the reason that I decided to leave after almost 17 years. The bureaucracy and dysfunction is just soul destroying and I can only imagine how much better the results/finances would be if they just applied some common sense to stuff like this...


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## Paul O Mahoney (21 Sep 2021)

You work for a company but left 17 yes ago or did I misread?


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## Paul O Mahoney (21 Sep 2021)

ClubMan said:


> The company that I work for (just until the end of the week now) has c. 20,000 employees worldwide and thought that now was a good idea to introduce mandatory individual forms for employees applying for WFH and only allowing up to 2 days of same per week. And this in spite of record productivity and financial results over the past two years.    Imagine the cost of processing these forms for even a fraction of 20K employees... BS like this is part of the reason that I decided to leave after almost 17 years. The bureaucracy and dysfunction is just soul destroying and I can only imagine how much better the results/finances would be if they just applied some common sense to stuff like this...


But business is rarely as efficient without face to face and head to head interaction, and that's been proven for near 100 yrs. 

There is a blend , but most companies rely on the dynamics of being in the office,  of course working from home doesn't have an immediate bad effect , but strategically it might. 

If you have a good product that sells well things are good for a while and once the profits remain good and better than good like your example above .....great but competition will eat away.........

Every company has used covid for bad service and bad customer care and they'll continue to do so, until competition takes the market. 

I can't see where WFH is an asset to aby business nor its employees......most of the people I know would wfh pre pandemic on Friday but even they say that it's not ideal and need to get back into office and work rest and play


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## ClubMan (21 Sep 2021)

Paul O Mahoney said:


> You work for a company but left 17 yes ago or did I misread?


Yes, you obviously misread it.


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## Paul O Mahoney (21 Sep 2021)

ClubMan said:


> Yes, you obviously misread it.


Apologies


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## Leo (21 Sep 2021)

ClubMan said:


> The company that I work for (just until the end of the week now) has c. 20,000 employees worldwide and thought that now was a good idea to introduce mandatory individual forms for employees applying for WFH and only allowing up to 2 days of same per week.


I'm surprised any company of that scale didn't have that process nailed down years ago! Any employer facilitating WFH without a formal process in place is exposing themselves to quite a bit of risk. The H&S implications alone mean an employer who doesn't formalise the process is careless.

With the proposed legislation granting employees the right to request WFH, you can just expect increased bureaucracy and paperwork as employers will have increased obligations to show compliance with the regs and a fair process is in place and applied to each and every application.


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