# bank calling from 'unknown' number



## Splash (8 Jun 2011)

I have received two calls from Bank of Ireland in the last 4 weeks - one from banking 365, and another from the credit card department. In both cases, the call shows up on my mobile as coming from an 'unknown' number.

Both callers asked me to confirm who I am by asking alternatively for my birth date or mother's maiden name before they gave any further reason as to why they are calling. I refused to give them, or proceed further with the call, because I don't know if the caller is legitimately calling from the bank. Am I being uber-paranoid? I've complained to them that how am I to know they are bank of Ireland if it's an unknown number, and they've said they're calling from a call centre, and they are aware the number shows up as 'unknown'. They are otherwise evasive as to why this is the case. Apparently I can't call back the call centre number, and be directed to the agent? Why?

Does verifying the customer details matter more to them than the customer's concern as to whether or not they are the bank! I am finding it quite (very) irritating, and I called back the service dept., who confirmed I had been called at the time by an agent in relation to the matter.

Why can't the BOI number simply appear on your phone when they call?


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## aristotle (8 Jun 2011)

I refuse to give personal details to unknown numbers. You have no idea who you are talking to.

In a recent call from O2 I eventually got the O2 person to confirm some details on my account so I knew who I was talking to. I did first have to confirm my name but I was happy enough it was genuine.

I think you need to take a cautious approach with these unknown callers.


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## callybags (8 Jun 2011)

This happened to me with a call from Quinn Insurance.

They said they were calling about a policy I had cancelled, and I have no doubt the caller was genuine. I think their number came up.

However, the call started with then saying "I just need to verify a few details to ensure you are the policyholder" and proceeded to ask for D.O.B. and *my contact number !*

I politely reminded her that she had rung me, and therefore obviously had my number.

This confused her so much that the call didn't proceed any further.


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## aristotle (8 Jun 2011)

For data protection they have to verify who they are talking to. They currently do that by asking you to confirm various personal details.

Maybe they should start recording some other info to confirm your identity from, a password or something.


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## Sunny (8 Jun 2011)

I would never give those details over the phone to someone that rang me. I would ask them to put a note on my account on what it is in relation to and I will ring either banking 365 or my branch. Credit card services usually allow you to ring back.


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## kickstart (8 Jun 2011)

Splash said:


> Am I being uber-paranoid?



No, you are not. AIB has posted an alert on their online banking login web page about fraudulent phone calls and text messages as well as the usual phishing emails. Sensibly, they advise you to never disclose any details, and end the call. 

That said, I've received a few calls like the one you mention from AIB myself. I simply followed their security advice, and hung up.


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## Splash (8 Jun 2011)

brianb said:


> That said, I've received a few calls like the one you mention from AIB myself. I simply followed their security advice, and hung up.


 
And they must be aware that if people do follow their advice they'll hang up 90% of the time, or in BOI's case - 100% - so long as the number shows up as 'unknown' on your phone. 

If it wasn't so annoying, it is amusing playing the game and telling the agent, that no, despite that fact that you are repeatedly rabbiting on asking me for my private details for data protection purposes, I'm not giving it to you, because I don't know if you are who you say you are.


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## marksa (8 Jun 2011)

Often the unknown number is as a result of the telephone solutions used in call-centres which are effectively IP phones - akin, but not the same as, Skype. Perhaps the phoning organisation needs to be better equipped to be able to identify themselves verbally as this form of call-centre is going to become more and more the norm.


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## Mel (8 Jun 2011)

I find this extremely annoying also - I'm with AIB and they were trying to contact me recently. The caller pretended that she was unaware the number was blocked. I suspect it's deliberate, as I don't think VOIP telephone systems block the number by default - a lot of normal businesses including where I work use them, and the number isn't blocked. My guess is that some people are possibly less likely to answer if they know who it's the bank hassling them, especially in these days.


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## Knuttell (9 Jun 2011)

I never answer calls from "private numbers".


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## dahamsta (10 Jun 2011)

aristotle said:


> In a recent call from O2 I eventually got the O2 person to confirm some details on my account so I knew who I was talking to.



And they were breaking the law (Data Protection) by doing that, which is usually the response they'll give when challenged. The entire industry approach to this is and always has been a nonsense, I've filed multiple complaints with multiple vendors over the years, and the process is still exactly the same mess.

There are plenty of ways around it, but the simplest in my opinion is for the vendor to provide a generic callback number to new customers, to be kept by the phone or in a handset or meatspace address book, and provide them with a PIN when they call with an enquiry.

Then the customer can call back at their leisure and be connected automatically to someone that can deal with the query. The only issue is that each vendor will likely need an individual callback number, but for most people I can't see it passing a dozen or so for major vendors.

(Of course the ideal would be a standardised 2 factor token that all  vendors agree to use, preferably available as a widget or an app, but RSA's massive screwup with SecurID has probably put paid to that for a while.)

It's hardly rocket science, but unfortunately the financials and the telcos are invariably the worst at improving their CS, and they don't like being inconvenienced. Inconveniencing us is of course another matter entirely.

Much like Knutell, I rarely answer calls from private numbers. If it's important they'll leave a message, or more likely they'll send out a letter instead. The only real issue is if your card is flagged for fraud, but you can always ring the number on the back of the card to figure this out.

The vast majority of private number calls are direct marketers or scammers (if you consider the two separate). I've had two already this week from the imaginary Windows helpdesk in India. I took great joy in keeping them on the line with reciprocal nonsense for at least 15 minutes. But I digress...

BTW, the number blocking isn't accidental or technical, it's intentional to prevent callbacks to direct numbers. They could and sometimes do spoof to a generic number, but I think this is frowned upon by ComReg. Not that they matter a tuppenny.

adam


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## Complainer (10 Jun 2011)

It really is bad practice for a bank or an O2 or any decent organisation to be doing this. It is like they are training up punters to scammed, by getting them used to bad practices.


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## DB74 (10 Jun 2011)

A couple of months ago I got a phone call (Friday afternoon at approx 4pm) from someone claiming to be from my bank (Ulster Bank). Again it was an unknown number. I wouldn't give any personal details and the caller just kind of hung up abruptly (obviously annoyed because I wouldn't give the details) so I was quite suspicious. I immediately logged onto internet banking and my account had been frozen. It turned out that the caller WAS from Ulster Bank and they were ringing because their system had flagged up some transactions as possibly fraudulent* and because I hadn't responded to the phone call, they froze my account. I had to ring about 4 different places (incl Northern Ireland) to get the right person to unfreeze my account before the weekend.

It's hard to know how to solve it though. I'm suspicious enough NOT to give details over the phone but the bank won't deal with me unless I give personal details over the phone.

* the potentially fraudulent transactions (laser) were 

a. purchased petrol in a garage
b. bought a few things in the local shop
c. picked up dry-cleaning in the laundrette

All 3 transactions were in the same village and within 15 mins of each other!


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## stefg (10 Jun 2011)

When I get these calls I ask for them to confirm some details in response.  For example both AIB and O2 ask me for the first line of my address and I ask them to complete the rest of the address.  Once they can do that I will continue with the call.

They seemed a little confused the first time I asked them to do it but they don't seem to mind now.


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## Time (10 Jun 2011)

And fraudsters really use stolen cards to collect their dry cleaning and buy a loaf of bread? Please! 

They should be flagging someone buying €1000 on aerlingus.com but in my experience the high value transactions just sail through unchallenged.


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## terrontress (10 Jun 2011)

Time said:


> And fraudsters really use stolen cards to collect their dry cleaning and buy a loaf of bread? Please!
> 
> They should be flagging someone buying €1000 on aerlingus.com but in my experience the high value transactions just sail through unchallenged.


 
Surely with aerlingus.com they can just go to the plane and find the person with the boarding card paid for by stolen card. I think the fraudsters are more likely to get goods to use in the here and now or else cash.

In terms of the loaf of bread, if the fraudster uses it and the bread is purchased without hitch, he knows he has the correct PIN and the account is not blocked. His next thing is then to steam in and start to buy TVs and withdraw cash from the ATM.


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## Ceepee (10 Jun 2011)

terrontress said:


> In terms of the loaf of bread, if the fraudster uses it and the bread is purchased without hitch, he knows he has the correct PIN and the account is not blocked. His next thing is then to steam in and start to buy TVs and withdraw cash from the ATM.



AND eat the evidence!


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## Willy Fogg (10 Jun 2011)

Time said:


> And fraudsters really use stolen cards to collect their dry cleaning and buy a loaf of bread? Please!
> 
> They should be flagging someone buying €1000 on aerlingus.com but in my experience the high value transactions just sail through unchallenged.



Yes they do. Small transactions are a discreet way to test if a card is still active and a precursor to bigger spends.


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## pudds (10 Jun 2011)

no OP your not being paranoid and while I used to acccept calls like these in the past in good faith I am going to be far more careful now in future. 

I think these call centres/agents are going to have to come up with a better system for us joe soaps to be able to trust going forward or companies will have to stop farming out part of their businesses.

Trust has to be a two way street or not at all.


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## Mel (10 Jun 2011)

Knuttell said:


> I never answer calls from "private numbers".


 
Nor do I as a rule - but when it persisted I answered and turned out it was the bank, saying they had been trying and failing to contact me


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## Time (11 Jun 2011)

I never ever answer private numbers. If someone wants to talk to me they can show me their number. Simples.


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## Daisy2012 (11 Jun 2011)

That's so funny - I just had the same with O2 the other day. They rang on an unknown number, wanted to know if I had any issues with my billing/account. I said no, thanks and goodbye and then they proceeded to tell me the call was being recorded and they wanted to ask a couple of questions to verify that I was who I said I was. WTF?? They rang me on my mobile for a sales call (as obviously they wanted to upsell something) and then want me to verify I am who * I * say I am?? I said under no circumstances am I giving out data like that on an unknown number, just like the OP. The woman said that she could send me a text to verify that she was calling from O2. I asked how on earth that could work - so I get a text from O2 to tell me that someone from O2 would ring me on an unknown number? I got quite shirty and told them to go away.


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## kbie (12 Jun 2011)

My local AIB branch when calling me also have a 'Private Number' displayed. I do hesitate to answer these type of calls but one of my eldery relations has their landline phone ex directory and when he calls it also comes up as Private Number so I am afraid of missing a call from him as it may be an emergengy.


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## rameire (14 Jun 2011)

what ever happened when there was no such thing as caller display.

did you guys just go mad running around in circles,
or hide under the table.


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## csirl (14 Jun 2011)

Splash said:


> I have received two calls from Bank of Ireland in the last 4 weeks -  Apparently I can't call back the call centre number, and be directed to the agent? Why?
> 
> [\QUOTE]
> 
> I got a call from BOI yesterday - missed it, but the person left a return number and I was able to call them back.


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## johnnygman (14 Jun 2011)

rameire said:


> what ever happened when there was no such thing as caller display.
> 
> did you guys just go mad running around in circles,
> or hide under the table.


 
Excellent point! Some people just get a kick out of moaning, I feel sorry for the staff who have to make these calls and get labasted by these gombeens who think giving out a date of birth will lead to them being defrauded into abject poverty, with said fradsters armed with this vital information. Quick solution, don't answer it if you are not fit to discern a genuine caller or just want to have a pop at some company phone rep.


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## Sunny (14 Jun 2011)

johnnygman said:


> Excellent point! Some people just get a kick out of moaning, I feel sorry for the staff who have to make these calls and get labasted by these gombeens who think giving out a date of birth will lead to them being defrauded into abject poverty, with said fradsters armed with this vital information. Quick solution, don't answer it if you are not fit to discern a genuine caller or just want to have a pop at some company phone rep.


 
What are you on about? It has nothing to do with private numbers. It has to with asking for private information over the phone when people have no idea who you are. If you stupid enough to give account or personal information including your date of birth to some guy who rings you on the phone claiming to be from a bank, then you deserve to get skimmed. 

I will only give out that information when I make the phone call. Not when they ring me. Even the banks themselves tell you that they will never ring or e-mail looking for personal details. And yet their staff do.


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## dahamsta (14 Jun 2011)

In all seriousness, you guys need to do a little research before commenting because you obviously don't understand how identity theft works. It's not just about one phone call, or one visit to the door, or one dumpster dive; it's about a concerted effort to steal many data points, and then bring them back together to trick someone else.

When you've had your identity used for fraud with something as simple as a single stolen bank statement, then you'll be qualified to comment. It happened to me and I'm extremely security-aware, on data protection in particular. If it can happen to me, it can happen to you.

So please, drop the cynicism and sarcasm, it's juvenile. This is an important issue.


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## Time (14 Jun 2011)

+1000


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## Phoenicia (14 Jun 2011)

@kbie: People with ex-directory landlines can choose to reveal their number to the person they are calling.  Simply dial 142 before the number, and it is revealed for that call only. Maybe your elderly relative could make a note of that, or you could programme your number into his/her phone with the 142 prefix built-in?  Get all your ex-directory contacts to do the same and you can happily ignore all Private Numbers.


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## Mongola (27 Jul 2011)

aristotle said:


> For data protection they have to verify who they are talking to. They currently do that by asking you to confirm various personal details.
> 
> Maybe they should start recording some other info to confirm your identity from, a password or something.


 

If somebody rings them, yes that makes perfect sense but if THEY are riging you??? 
Some may be genuine but some are definitely not. I got a call (twice actually now) from a guy claiming to be from Microsoft and they have identified a pb with my computer. The guy insisted that my computer was at risk and that he could help me. Needless to say that the conversation did not last more than 30 seconds!


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## ajapale (27 Jul 2011)

Splash said:


> Am I being uber-paranoid?



No, tell them to write if its that important.


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## nai (28 Jul 2011)

Daisy2012 said:


> That's so funny - I just had the same with O2 the other day. They rang on an unknown number, wanted to know if I had any issues with my billing/account. I said no, thanks and goodbye and then they proceeded to tell me the call was being recorded and they wanted to ask a couple of questions to verify that I was who I said I was. WTF?? They rang me on my mobile for a sales call (as obviously they wanted to upsell something) and then want me to verify I am who * I * say I am?? I said under no circumstances am I giving out data like that on an unknown number, just like the OP. The woman said that she could send me a text to verify that she was calling from O2. I asked how on earth that could work - so I get a text from O2 to tell me that someone from O2 would ring me on an unknown number? I got quite shirty and told them to go away.


 
I had a similar call from O2 - I kept them on the line without giving away any information and insisted I receive a text message from O2 which does show up as O2 Customer Care to verify - needless to say the text never arrived even though in a previous call with O2 that I initiated O2 did confirm to me by text it was their contact centre.

I just hung up on them this time and haven't received a call from O2 again. When I contacted O2 to verify if it was them they said noone had tried to contact me in relation to my account .....


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## Daisy2012 (28 Jul 2011)

ooooh - that's definitely a lesson so - so much for being paranoid!


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## aristotle (28 Jul 2011)

I just got a call today from an unknown number from 02 as well. I told them to take me off their call list, which they agreed to do, so thankfully they will never call me again.


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## AlbacoreA (28 Jul 2011)

ajapale said:


> No, tell them to write if its that important.



+1

Cold calling is usually a hard sell hoping you'll do something on impulse. Anything worthwhile they can send in the post.


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## kbie (29 Jul 2011)

Phoenicia said:


> @kbie: People with ex-directory landlines can choose to reveal their number to the person they are calling. Simply dial 142 before the number, and it is revealed for that call only. Maybe your elderly relative could make a note of that, or you could programme your number into his/her phone with the 142 prefix built-in? Get all your ex-directory contacts to do the same and you can happily ignore all Private Numbers.


 
Thanks for that useful info Phoenica. Sorry I didn't see you comment until now.


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