# Forced to work in a position not qualified for and completely stressed



## inasoup (22 Feb 2011)

'A' was recruited by HSE and was working in a center treating kids with disabilities and has a good reputation as a paediatric specialist. 'A' has specialization in paediatrics (education/work experience) and the employment letter clearly states that it is for a *permanent paediatric position*. 

After the center was disbanded a few years earlier, 'A' was deputed to a another organisation but had to report to a manager 'B' from the HSE and not the organisation he worked for. 'A' got very good reviews from patients there too.   The organization that 'A' worked for wants him to continue there as they are very happy with the work done and even spoke to 'B' that they want 'A' to continue, but it was turned down by 'B'.

Then  'B' said 'A' will be made in charge of a another center (verbally, no documented proof), but a Junior was made the in charge instead. The reason given that the previous year 'A' was off work for few weeks on medical leave so 'B' cannot take risk in giving 'A' charge of center.

The "Junior" has specialized training in treating adults and has been made the supervisor for 'A'.  And 'A" is forced to treat adults too along with kids. And the supervisor has been kind of bullying telling that 'A' does not know to work properly and always resorts to insulting. 

'A" admits that he/she cannot treat adults properly as that is not the area of specialization. 'A' has been treating kids with different kind of disabilities like Down Syndrome, Dyspraxia, MS, and other disabilities for years and has specialized training in doing so . But now'A'  has been forced to treat  adults where the problems are back pains, neck pains and other age related problems which is not his/her area of expertise. 

The manager *'B'* send him to an health therapist for stress evaluation and the report of the therapist clearly states that  'A'  has no medical problem and that his stress is only due to decisions taken by the management and once that is addressed there would be no problem.

Now 'A" is completely stressed because he/she can be framed very easily. If 'A' is told to treat an adult with some sensitive nerve problem, the patient will be at the risk of losing his life too and then the entire blame could be put on 'A'. So now his manager is threatening in a very polite manner that a letter will be written to the governing body mentioning that 'A' is not competent enough. This after seeing 4 months of work done in an area that 'A' is not qualified for and most importantly not recruited for as his appointment letter clearly mentions pediatrics. The very good work , appreciation and feedback received over the years with kids is completely ignored. ( If 'A' was bad, the previous organization wouldn't still want 'A' to work for them. )

What should 'A' do? A solicitor friend said that he doesn't even want to hear the problem as he represents the HSE himself.

'It looks like they are pushing 'A' to a corner so that 'A' has no other option but to resign. And they are tainting the good reputation earned over the years  by treating kids who need specialized care. Everybody says they are purposely doing it as they no longer needs 'A' services and if 'A' doesn't resign, they may actually frame him in some way or another so that he may lose his license. 

Is it a lost case and should 'A' just be a sitting duck and wait for the day he is sacked or can anything be done? 

Whom can 'A' approach for help. 

With the pay cuts happening over past few years even hiring a solicitor is difficult. So any meaningful advice is greatly appreciated.


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## Purple (22 Feb 2011)

The solution is straightforward; the post “A” was employed to fill no longer exists. “A” should be made redundant and the employer should recruit a suitable person for the role that “A” is currently doing. The health service exists to provide for the needs of patients, not it’s employees.


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## inasoup (22 Feb 2011)

The posts definitely exists because the organization 'A' worked for wants him there. If the post didn't exist why do they want him there? To entertain kids?

The contract with HSE for *permanent* position. The appointment letter mentions permanent and paediatrics. As far as I know permanent employees are not made redundant, they are just moved to other places where relevant post exists. And this this case, the posts do exist but still she is forced to work in a position for which she not not qualified.


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## Complainer (22 Feb 2011)

Does A have a professional body, e.g. IASLT? What would their view be on the matter of treating people beyond A's professional capacity?


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## inasoup (22 Feb 2011)

Yes, 'A' is an member of a professional body and so is the manager. And the manager threated that a letter will be written to them mentioning that 'A' is incompetent and not up to mark. 'A' has been doing courses run by the professional body and got certificates from them to update her skills every now and then to provide more specialized care to kids. And everybody has been advising 'A' not to write to them as they do nothing for employees and it can worsen matters further. But I feel 'A' should write but I really have no idea how the system works. So wanted real helpful advice on the way forward.


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## Deiseblue (22 Feb 2011)

inasoup said:


> The contract with HSE for *permanent* position. The appointment letter mentions permanent and paediatrics. As far as I know permanent employees are not made redundant, they are just moved to other places where relevant post exists. And this this case, the posts do exist but still she is forced to work in a position for which she not not qualified.



Is "A " a member of a *Trade Union*? If so she should approach them and detail her difficulties and ask the Union to intervene.

If she is not a member then I would strongly suggests that she joins ASAP , once Union becomes involved , from experience , I have found that management are often motivated to find a solution.


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## truthseeker (22 Feb 2011)

Can A not just refuse to treat adults stating that he/she is not qualified to do so. Let management open a disciplinary process as a result of this at which point A will be able to state the case that he/she is being forced to treat adults and he/she is not qualified to do so.

If A has a permanent contract and can not be made redundant then surely the outcome of a disciplinary will be that A is moved to a position which he/she is qualified to work in?


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## inasoup (22 Feb 2011)

Yes 'A' is an member of IMPACT, but people who have dealt with them in past tell that they deal with so many different professionals that do not have set guidelines for specific professions and in the end nothing comes up. Can anybody suggest some Union that actually addresses issues. I have no experience with all this so have no idea what to suggest to my friend but can see the tremendous pressure and stress she is going through. So thought the best help my friend can receive at this point of time is to get some suggestions here as she really cannot afford a solicitor and the only solicitor she knows represents HSE.

Well the health therapist in the stress report mentioned that the stress is only due to the decisions taken by management and if they address it , there would be no problems. But the therapist referred to an independent counsellor and marked it high priority. Who in turn at first told that the problem my friend is facing is a genuine one and he will be calling a meeting of all the parties concerned as this was a genuine case worth studying and solution should be found for it as soon as possible. But a few days later backtracked telling that it is not so urgent and that he will talk to 'A' after 'A's meeting with another line manager scheduled few months down the line. But 'A' is scared she could be framed before that meet actually happens. Also 'A's friends has been telling her that many people have experienced these things earlier with the HSE and nothing comes out of it eventually. In fact somebody actually suggested that be a obedient slave and you will have no problems, but if they feel you are a threat, they will get you out in one way or another.


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## csirl (22 Feb 2011)

> The contract with HSE for *permanent* position. The appointment letter mentions permanent and paediatrics.The contract with HSE for *permanent* position. The appointment letter mentions permanent and paediatrics.


 
Which of the following situations applies?:

1. A's original contract/letter says A is a "General Employee" appointed to a permanent position and has been allocated to paediatrics.

or

2 A's original contract/letter says that A is a "Paediatric Specialist" who has been employed as such.

There is a huge difference between the two situations above. A lot of public servants are hired as generalist and allocated to specialist areas. This does not necessarily mean that they must work in the particular specialist area for life - their contract may allow them to be allocated to another area and they may have been originally hired because they have sufficient general skills/experience to be able to cope with such moves.


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## inasoup (22 Feb 2011)

Original letter is worded 'Permanent Appointment Order' to *permanent Office of 'Paediatric Specialist'* with HSE in accordance with and subject to the qualifications and particulars of office prescribed..the initial assignment to be the kids service (this was disbanded later) but the letter mentions permanent office of paediatric specialist

does she have a genuine case?


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## Deiseblue (22 Feb 2011)

inasoup said:


> Yes 'A' is an member of IMPACT, but people who have dealt with them in past tell that they deal with so many different professionals that do not have set guidelines for specific professions and in the end nothing comes up. Can anybody suggest some Union that actually addresses issues. I have no experience with all this so have no idea what to suggest to my friend but can see the tremendous pressure and stress she is going through. So thought the best help my friend can receive at this point of time is to get some suggestions here as she really cannot afford a solicitor and the only solicitor she knows represents HSE.



The questions of stress and bullying are universal & all unions are well versed in dealing with same.

Your friend should seek a meeting with the professional Impact employee designated to deal with her area immediately in order to explore her options.

As I said previously once management are aware that a union is involved then the chances of arriving at a solution are greatly increased.


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## inasoup (22 Feb 2011)

Which of the following situations applies?:

1. A's original contract/letter says A is a "General Employee" appointed to a permanent position and has been allocated to paediatrics.

or

2 A's original contract/letter says that A is a "Paediatric Specialist" who has been employed as such.

 Original letter is worded 'Permanent Appointment Order' to permanent Office of 'Paediatric Specialist' with HSE in accordance with and subject to the qualifications and particulars of office prescribed..the initial assignment to be the kids service(this was disbanded later) .


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## csirl (22 Feb 2011)

I'm not familiar with HSE HR policies, but is it the case that the only realistic options open are to accept the new less than ideal role, or take redundancy? Is there a vacancy in paediatrics that A can realistically return to?


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## inasoup (22 Feb 2011)

yes there are vacancies and she has asked for transfer too...nd got a reply that it will be looked into...but the everyday bullying is taking a toll


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## truthseeker (22 Feb 2011)

inasoup said:


> yes there are vacancies and she has asked for transfer too...nd got a reply that it will be looked into...but the everyday bullying is taking a toll


 
Can she not get her GP to sign her off for stress until she gets this sorted out?


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## Purple (22 Feb 2011)

truthseeker said:


> Can she not get her GP to sign her off for stress until she gets this sorted out?



Her GP should only do so if they agree that she is in fact stressed.


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## truthseeker (22 Feb 2011)

Purple said:


> Her GP should only do so if they agree that she is in fact stressed.


 
Yes, of course. Im taking as true the OP which states that a health therapist agreed there was stress caused by management decisions etc...


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## onq (22 Feb 2011)

"A" immediately needs to take legal advice and document all of this. A's dignity in the workplace has been disabused and his employer's behaviour is already tantamount to constructive dismissal. One cannot unilaterally vary the contract like this as far as I am aware and "A" should have stood her ground long before now.

Furthermore, "A" should have her being passed over for promotion investigated.
There is a possibility she may have been discriminated against on either age or health grounds, both non-runners under current employment legislation.

Let's turn Purple's advice on its head.

Only *if* "A"'s position had been made redundant would any of this behaviour by management have made sense. If such were the case then "A" would be entitled to a redundancy payment.

"A" is perfectly correct to be concerned about being asked to treat people outside her professional competence.
She should report this matter to her medical representative body and her insurer.

"A" urgently needs to get her act together and become aware of her rights under the Irish employment law acquis.
Here is a link she may find useful, but it is not a substitute for taking competent professional advice.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/equality_in_work/bullying_in_the_workplace.html

See also the several other issues raised in relation to her rights and also the Health and Safety legislation.
This is important both from her own point of view as well as her patients.
She could be culpable if her fears of making an error while treating adults materialised.
She should also become aware of the protections against victimization.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/enforcement_and_redress/victimisation_at_work.html

Can I strongly suggest that if she can make a case against this behaviour  by her employer(s) under the Health and Safety legislation she sould do  so.
It is quite a well regarded body of law and also quite well supported in the corollary legislation and means of redress.
All of her comments, complaints and concerns should be properly recorded.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/e...ons/health_and_safety/health_safety_work.html

I hope this may be of some use, but please remember, this forum is not a substitute for taking professional advice.
A little knowledge can be a danerous thing, especially in legal and employment matters.


ONQ.

 All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied        upon    as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal    action     be    taken.
 Competent legal professionals should be asked to advise in           Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the   matters     at     hand.


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## Marion (22 Feb 2011)

Your friend should seek independent legal advise for their own sanity. If your friend is part of a Union they will have to address this issue.

Make sure that your friend takes control of the case and is not just a passive observer.

This type of nonsense happens all too often in the public sector.

Marion


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## ajapale (22 Feb 2011)

Has your friend taken this issue up with the HR function within the HSE?


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## becky (23 Feb 2011)

ajapale said:


> Has your friend taken this issue up with the HR function within the HSE?



I agree.  Your friend seems to have a grievance and should lodge one.  This policy is available from HR or the HSE intranet.

See this link.

[broken link removed]

I'd always advise to use the policies that are in place first.

Then there is the Dignity at Work Policy but from what you have posted I'm not too sure if I'd go down this road.  I'd advise you or your friend to read both and decide which one is suitable.  There are a number of support contact people who are trained to advise your friend on the policies.  Their role is limited but this is available to 

This is all free, so no need to pay for legal advise yet.


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## inasoup (23 Feb 2011)

Thank you all for the suggestions. At this point the only document which may work in 'A's favor seems to be the appointment order. But 'A' is afraid that maybe if she contacts HR and talks about the contract, they might send out a new contract mentioning she has to work with adults too as additional responsibilities from now on. At the end of the day HR is also part of the HSE. And 'A' is also aware of all the suggestions given above. It is just that people who have already been through all this tell her that they have been there, done it and lost. The HSE appoints the best solicitors who can tweak the cases and have years of experience doing so. And 'A' just doesn't have the money to hire a solicitor , the time or the mental strength to take this forward as this may take years. Also there is not even one case with a positive outcome that can give her confidence. She has only heard stories and known people who have had the guts to fight when they were discriminated against and ultimately lost. So I was just wondering is contacting the media about this an option. Not as in telling my friend's case but at least making them aware how bullying is widespread and how people are harassed and their reputations compromised. I mean something like contacting RTE/Prime time and doing an episode on such cases where people tell about their experiences. So that the general public is made aware of such things. And also the bullies know that they cannot get away with this forever. I mean even if 'A' resigns, tomorrow somebody else in her place may be meted the same treatment. And more people will suffer until such things are taken seriously and dealt with. just wondering if contacting the fourth estate is an option.


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## inasoup (24 Feb 2011)

'A' contacted HR regarding appointment order asking to explain the terms of contract. They said they will get back to her.


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## ajapale (24 Feb 2011)

I think "A" is just not procative enough!

She talks to one solicitor who wont/cant take up her case and doesnt seek out other solicitors who specialise in employment issues.
She doesnt proactively engage with her union for some reason.
She doesnt proactively engage with her professional body for some reason.
She doesnt proactively engage with her HR department, other than on the narrow issue of the contents of her contract and allows her self to be fobbed off with a "we'll get back to you". At the very least she should formally lodge her grievance through the grievance procedure.

She should engage with all of the above and document every step keeping meticulous records of all phone calls, emails, converstaions and correspondance.

Contacting the likes of Joe Duffy or Primetime is unlikely to achieve very much in my opinion.

You are correct that in the current environment of quangos being closed down and various agencies of the HSE being abolished/amalgamated there are hugh issues facing the entire work force. This is all the more reason to engage fully with unions, professional bodies, solicitors, HR and local management.


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## inasoup (24 Feb 2011)

@ajapale...Completely agree with you and that frustrates me too. In the very beginning when the bullying started, I told 'A' to report it and it will only get worse if she is timid. 'A" said 'bullying' is a strong word and she cannot malign somebody's reputation. And I told her you care about them for what I don't understand but they are out to ruin your life. There is one detail which I have left out as I was told by one moderator  not to include it here as this is a widely read forum and all the parties can be identified. And somehow I feel 'that ' is an important part of this issue, I could be wrong but it definitely figures somewhere in this. If it is not a problem and bother for you I can sent a private message about it to you only if you want. I was talking about media as this is not an one off case...But lot of people are facing such problems and nothing is being done about it.


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## inasoup (24 Feb 2011)

When 'A' asked for appointment will HR, she was told to send an e-mail mentioning the reason for meeting. When she asked to explain the terms of contract , she was told they will get back to her. Is is really a possibility that HR manager doesn't know what the contract means that they need time to respond. Also HR didn't agree for a meeting just wanted 'A' to write her queries. Now 'A' can act only depending on the response. If the response in not in 'A's favor, then the 'n' number of queries 'A' has will have no meaning at all. Solicitor friend didn't even want to listen to 'A's problem as it would have been a conflict of interest and rightly so. Depending on HR's response 'A' will plan further action. But now everyone will know that 'A'has started acting and will be on their guard and will try to build up their case too if they haven't already started doing it. A very important query I had was how does a committee take its decision on bullying? Now it will be 'A's word against bully 'C'. Is it legal for 'A' to record the bully in action with her camera phone as shown in movies. On what grounds will committee take action? Is it just on believing one's word and disregarding another's or do they actually needs proofs. The e-mails and other non verbal exchanges that are documented will definitely be professional in nature with no offensive or insulting terms. 'B'( manager) and 'C'(junior bully) will not risk using bullying terms in things that are documented. But it is during the inter personal interactions between 'A' & 'B'  , and 'A' &'C' that the verbal insults and bullying happens. How does one document these instances? Is is legal to film it or at least voice record it? Do the committee make its decision only on face value? What impression did you get when HR asked for time to respond regarding contract?


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## inasoup (8 Mar 2011)

HR says according to 'redeployment principles set in public service agreement' 'A' can be asked to treat non paediatric patients too. Can somebody please corroborate this?


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## Complainer (8 Mar 2011)

inasoup said:


> HR says according to 'redeployment principles set in public service agreement' 'A' can be asked to treat non paediatric patients too. Can somebody please corroborate this?


Her union is best positioned to confirm or deny this.


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## ajapale (8 Mar 2011)

ajapale said:


> She talks to one solicitor who wont/cant take up her case and doesnt seek out other solicitors who specialise in employment issues.
> She doesnt proactively engage with her union for some reason.
> She doesnt proactively engage with her professional body for some reason.
> She doesn't pro-actively engage with her HR department, other than on the narrow issue of the contents of her contract and allows her self to be fobbed off with a "we'll get back to you". At the very least she should formally lodge her grievance through the grievance procedure.
> ...



This is all the more reason to engage fully with unions, professional bodies, solicitors, HR and local management.


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## csirl (9 Mar 2011)

inasoup said:


> HR says according to 'redeployment principles set in public service agreement' 'A' can be asked to treat non paediatric patients too. Can somebody please corroborate this?


 
Does A possess the minimum legal qualifications needed to work in the non-paediatric area?

To qualify this, I understand that she may not have the same level of training and experience and may not have done many of the courses or have many of the additional specialised qualifications that other staff commonly have, but does she have the legal bare minimum requirements? If she does, it may well be that she is regarded as someone who can be reassigned.

I get the gut feeling from this thread that A seems to be determined to go down a legal route rather than pushing the issue internally. You will not win a legal case, even if you are right, if you have not made sufficient efforts to use established internal procedures and common sense in approaching the problem. If it is the case that A is not qualified (legally - see above) to do the job she is assigned to, she needs to insist on talking to HR about it and seeing what can be done. If it is the case that she is legally qualified, but feels she needs to do additional courses, then she needs to address this with HR. No matter what the issue is, the first step for her is insisting on a sit down meeting with her HR manager to deal with the issue - not emails - a face to face meeting. I would find it hard to believe that any HR manager would not be willing to sit down and discuss a staff members concerns with them if it is a major issue.


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## inasoup (11 Mar 2011)

@ajapale, complainer..yes 'A' has started engaging with union. @csirl...agree that 'A' will lose the case as HSE recruits the best solicitors and playing around with the loopholes in the system gives them bread and butter. HR replied after many reminders. But in a way I feel the e-mail correspondence is the best as that will show what answers HR gave and how long they took ( most probably the delay is due to legal advice they would have had to take) to respond. Maybe in a one to one meeting they might say things which they can deny later. But e-mails are written documented proof. Today I read a very interesting article regarding bullying and HR's response to it. The bottom line was managment sticks together and HR never defends or supports an employee. HR and Manager connive and will even make a way to fire the employee (which I feel is what they are planning to do against 'A'. HR is there to cover the company, NOT to help the employees. HR is there for the company, upper management will always side with management and YOU can't affect the process except by getting another job.
Can just see if unions do anything in 'A's case. In fact I told 'A' in case they they do not  anything for you, at least stop being a member. She can use that money to buy some new clothes and feel better


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## inasoup (15 Mar 2011)

In 'A's 2nd meeting with health physician (HP), she was told that she is under tremendous stress and that management has to address A's concerns. But HP also said that 'A' should consider other options like flexi hours if management and HR are not solving the issue. HP also said an all party case conference will be held to find solutions to 'A's issues. Any tips on preparation for case conference will be greatly appreciated. Anyone gone through it?


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## inasoup (28 Mar 2011)

Updates...'A' is completely devastated. She was told by manager 'B that she doesn't even have the skills of an entry level professional. This after getting good feedback as a child specialist for so many years. 'B' also told that on chatting with the Occupational health physician, they decided that there is no need for the case conference. This after the OHP was sure and gave in writing a report that 'A' is completely stressed and management has to address 'A's genuine concerns and that an all part case conference will be held. And amongst themselves, they decided its no longer needed as 'A' is not competent. 'B' also told 'A' to file an grievance if she has any problem with the decision. So were they sleeping all these years that they allowed an incompetant person to treat kids who need specialized care? IMPACT said' A'cannot be asked to treat patients outside her scope of specialization and they need to talk to her. But all the attempts made to talk to them is proving unsuccessful as they are always busy with meetings. Long live the HSE.


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## inasoup (28 Mar 2011)

And yes they have started some disciplinary action as 'A' doesn't have the necessary skills.


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## inasoup (18 May 2011)

When 'A' met up with union representatives, they told her she cannot be asked to treat adults as her permanent contract clearly states that she is hired for paediatrics. Union also said that HR has to respond within 5 days when they get a letter from the Union. Now its been a month and HR hasn't responded to Union even though reminders have been sent. Is there any time frame under which the HR needs to respond to Union? HR is showing no interest to respond, Union is also not proactive in pursuing this (even though they claim that 'A' has a strong case). Is legal option the only way out?


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## inasoup (26 May 2011)

Now the union has intervened so HR and management has got all jittery and they are trying their best to cover their mistakes.

They told that they want to dismiss 'A' as the person supervising her was of the view that 'A' has the skills of an undergraduate.

Then Union asked if:
 any complaint has been made against 'A', 
if 'A's' treatment has been life threating to anyone,
 if 'A' has done any errors in clinical method 
and some other questions. 

And the management answered NO to all the questions. 

So Union asked for what reason they want 'A' to be dismissed? 

So management informally told that 'A' will be asked to go on administrative leave. 

They also said that 'A' could be a threat to children too as she is not skilled enough. This after she has treated kids for so many years and there has never been an performance based issue or complaint against her. 

And like Sunny mentions above I couldn't find any information regarding the conditions under which administrative leave can be imposed in Ireland. 

So wanted to know where  I can get exact information regarding this. 

And Union said that 'A' has been asked to treat adults in breach of the redeployment laws and her permanent appointment order.

And Union told 'A' that the HR and management will make it very difficult for her as they will not accept their mistakes easily and will try everything to cover this.


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## Complainer (29 May 2011)

She really needs a solicitor skilled in employment law. She can't address issues like this via a bulletin board.


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