# clients who pay no deposits, cancelling orders



## donee (19 May 2009)

if this is the wrong forum i apologise .but work is scarce enough as it . twice today ive gotten phone calls cancelling jobs ive quoted for and been given the go ahead for. basically whats happpened is that because the jobs were small and people seem to be alot more cautius about giving deposits i didnt ask for one . but both clients have rang asking for last minute discounts and cancelled the jobs when i said i couldnt reduce the price as the prices were already to the bone. now its a €1000 of work that i really cant afford to lose but if you work for nothing you'll never be idle. has anyone come up against this. anyone!!


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## extopia (19 May 2009)

*Re: Losing work*

Sounds like the potential clients probably got a better price elsewhere, even after giving you the go ahead. Or else they got cold feet because they genuinely felt they couldn't afford to do the work right now.

If your price was to the bone, as you said, well of course you did the right thing by not reducing any further.

You don't say what kind of work it is but I don't think asking for a deposit would have helped much. Either way, you should do what's standard in your industry re deposits/payment schedules. If you're too aggressive about collecting money before doing any work you'll scare people off.


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## donee (19 May 2009)

*Re: Losing work*

no they said they could get the jobs done cheaper .its changing kitchen worktops in one and altering kitchen units in the other , my point really is that if anyone is doing it any cheaper than i was then they cant be paying tax ins etc and when i put this to them it didnt seem to matter only the price , i think the race to the bottom is well and truly on. and as i said i didnt even ask the clients for a deposit to cover material costs


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## notagardener (19 May 2009)

*Re: Losing work*

Maybe they went to Ben Dunne's new site, where people mail the type of work they need done and trade's people pitch their price.  An Auction going the wrong way.  Well done Mr Dunne (loadsofmoney) - more exploitation in Ireland.....


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## donee (19 May 2009)

*Re: Losing work*



notagardener said:


> Maybe they went to Ben Dunne's new site, where people mail the type of work they need done and trade's people pitch their price. An Auction going the wrong way. Well done Mr Dunne (loadsofmoney) - more exploitation in Ireland.....


 are you serious?


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## notagardener (19 May 2009)

*Re: Losing work*

yep - it was advertised on Newstalk today. Think he's calling it tenderwithme.ie - Sure you'll see it tomorrow in the press - Had a politician at my door trying to tell me there was light at the end of the tunnel. Lucky he survived!!!


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## donee (19 May 2009)

*Re: Losing work*



notagardener said:


> yep - it was advertised on Newstalk today. Think he's calling it tenderwithme.ie - Sure you'll see it tomorrow in the press - Had a politician at my door trying to tell me there was light at the end of the tunnel. Lucky he survived!!!


 tenderwithme he should call it NIXERwithme


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## extopia (19 May 2009)

*Re: Losing work*

I think Ben Dunne's site is a good idea - why not?

It's actually called  and is not the first of its kind in Ireland. What's wrong with a dutch auction method? It just simplifies the quote process for everyone. I'm sure plenty of good tradesmen will find work out of this.


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## notagardener (19 May 2009)

*Re: Losing work*

I imagine every cowboy out there is raising a glass to Mr Dunne - Anyone can call to anyones home now - very dangerous without certification and registration


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## extopia (19 May 2009)

*Re: Losing work*

You obviously haven't checked out the site or the process. Whoever posts the tender decides on who wins the tender, and it doesn't have to be the cheapest. References can be asked for. Insurance can be insisted upon. Just like the real world.


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## donee (19 May 2009)

*Re: Losing work*



extopia said:


> I think Ben Dunne's site is a good idea - why not?
> 
> It's actually called  and is not the first of its kind in Ireland. What's wrong with a dutch auction method? It just simplifies the quote process for everyone. I'm sure plenty of good tradesmen will find work out of this.


 in principal its not a bad idea  but im old enough to remember the 80's and the nixer kings it created and the cowboys it created . but extopia i dont obviously know your occupation but people only seem to think that these kind of sites only affect tradespeople and initially they do but everything has a habit of working its way into other sectors. you can get very good tradesmen at the moment to work cheaply, the reason for that is that if they were self employed they now are not entitled to JSA so have very little income, but my point is , is that you still cant work for nothing


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## extopia (19 May 2009)

*Re: Losing work*

A dutch auction is just a method of selecting the lowest quote. Nothing wrong with that. And for what it's worth, my occupation is indeed included on the tenderme site. I'm not worried. I'd prefer to see it as a potential source of new business. I don't ever expect to get work if I'm not competitive on price/quality/speed and I don't see how this site is advantageous to "nixer merchants" unless there's an assumption that customers don't know what they're doing.

I'm also old enough to remember the 80s too, by the way


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## donee (20 May 2009)

*Re: Losing work*

SORRY about that ive just looked at the site , but whats to stop ie the owners of the site analyising the most popular responses to tenders and re submitting them in a slightly altered  way after all at €3  a reply in todays market if i owned it , its tempting. that said i still wonder if anyone has come across my original problem lately?


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## extopia (20 May 2009)

*Re: Losing work*



donee said:


> whats to stop ie the owners of the site analyising the most popular responses to tenders and re submitting them in a slightly altered  way after all at €3  a reply in todays market if i owned it , its tempting.



I don't understand what you mean here? Do you mean the site owners would start faking tenders just to get responses? If that's what you mean, I suppose the main deterrent against this is the fact that the site would probably die an instant death?


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## notagardener (20 May 2009)

*Re: Losing work*



extopia said:


> You obviously haven't checked out the site or the process. Whoever posts the tender decides on who wins the tender, and it doesn't have to be the cheapest. References can be asked for. Insurance can be insisted upon. Just like the real world.


 
I certainly understand the tender process and in principle I do agree the idea behind the site is a good one and not an original one, BUT  it does allow anyone to quote for work irrespective of their work experience or qualification. You can ask for references, you can ask for insurance as you posted, but it will leave vulernable people exposed to those out to make a quick buck and not too worried about work quality..Time will tell if it's successful, but I have my doubts and reckon most radio stations will have phone ins telling of peoples woes and most likely RTE will launch their own version of Watchdog - By the way I'm generally an optimist


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## JoeB (20 May 2009)

*Re: Losing work*

I have had a few people cancel after I had quoted but before been given the go-ahead. This has happened a few times over a few months.. so not much. In some cases they say they have lost their job or suffered other misfortunes.

I think you need to get deposits... after all this problem is exactly what deposits are supposed to prevent. If you have been given the go-ahead then you may have started the work, and you'd be out of pocket and you'd have work done that would be a complete loss. At least if you have the deposit then you're ok.. and obviously deposits are non-refundable in most circumstances.

I ask for a significant enough deposit.. maybe 30% or so but this can vary depending on the type of work and the quoted price. If you feel people won't go-ahead if you ask for a deposit then the job probably isn't worth it.. like why would a serious customer not be prepared to pay a deposit?.. probably because they're not a serious customer at all.

It's not guaranteed that people under cutting you means they're not paying taxes.. where you estimate it might take four days to do a good job.. someone else might think a 'good' job can be done in three.. the difference might be the standard aimed at.. to do quality work takes time.. some people rush the jobs, do poor quality work but still labour under the impression that the work is actually good, and they're wrong. Some customers don't notice the poor quality work.. or else they only notice after the job is done, and then it's too late.


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## Bronte (20 May 2009)

*Re: Losing work*



extopia said:


> A dutch auction is just a method of selecting the lowest quote. Nothing wrong with that.


  I thought this was called a reverse auction and not a dutch auction?


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## JoeB (20 May 2009)

*Re: Losing work*

A reverse auction is one where the lowest bid that isn't duplicated is the winner.. only useful for competations really as far as I can tell..


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## sam h (20 May 2009)

OP - have you asked the clients why they won't proceed?  You need to understand if you are actually losing to someone else or maybe the client simply can;t go ahead at the moment.

If you are reluctant to take a deposit, you could get a contract signed to state that "x% cancellation fee will be applied if work is cancelled within Xdays of the work due to start".  It will probably never be worth you while persuing clients, but at least clients will be more likely to be certain they want to proceed


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## thermalcrete (21 May 2009)

I recently carried out a renovation of a  bathroom, had a problem with the shower door supplied, got paid most of the money from the client. Waited for the door to be replaced (by supplier) client now wants me to reduce the outstanding balance - quoted there's a recession on!  People think they can use the recession to save paying money out. If you do a good job for a customer they should not have the cheek to look for a reduction after the job is done. Always, Always take a deposit and always get a written contract


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## extopia (21 May 2009)

thermalcrete said:


> Always, Always take a deposit and always get a written contract



Just to come at it from the other perspective...

I'm a customer. I agree the price and never quibble when it comes to paying, unless the job is carried out badly and you have refused to rectify. I'll expect you to be able to provide reliable references, and if you want, I will put you in touch with other trades and suppliers I've used so you can check whether I'm fair and prompt when it comes to paying up.

When I ask for extras I expect to have to pay for them (but if the tradesman throws them in that's OK too). I'll be fair to you if you're fair to me. But I will NEVER pay a deposit to secure your services, sorry. If you ask for one, I'll go elsewhere. 

I'll be happy to sign a contract when I engage your services, but I won't pay a deposit unless you have to undergo significant, non-refundable expenses before you show up on Day 1. (I will be happy to pay a percentage of the fee on Day 1 of the job)

Furthermore, if i want to charge me for a quote (rare, but some people used to  do this during the boom) I'll tell you I don't pay for giving you a free sales lead/walking into your shop.


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## DavyJones (21 May 2009)

extopia said:


> Just to come at it from the other perspective...
> 
> I'm a customer. I agree the price and never quibble when it comes to paying, unless the job is carried out badly and you have refused to rectify. I'll expect you to be able to provide reliable references, and if you want, I will put you in touch with other trades and suppliers I've used so you can check whether I'm fair and prompt when it comes to paying up.
> 
> ...




This is how most of my clients operate. With any job over €3k, we are paid a percentage, once labour and materials arrive on site I.E day 1.

I have never asked a client for a deposit before materials arrive on site, saying that the material we used would not be bespoke and could be returned if a job was cancelled. Which thankfully is very rare.


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## Complainer (21 May 2009)

thermalcrete said:


> I recently carried out a renovation of a  bathroom, had a problem with the shower door supplied, got paid most of the money from the client. Waited for the door to be replaced (by supplier) client now wants me to reduce the outstanding balance - quoted there's a recession on!  People think they can use the recession to save paying money out. If you do a good job for a customer they should not have the cheek to look for a reduction after the job is done. Always, Always take a deposit and always get a written contract


How long was the client without the shower door? Did the client buy the shower door direct, or though you?


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## boyle.mick (21 May 2009)

i can take all said on board we always reach a happy medium but always collect a deposite upon signing of contract it was said to me once IF THEY WON'T GIVE YOU A DEPOSITE THEY CAN'T PAY FOR THE JOB now not to insult anyone but i've tried and tested this and no deposit means no payment and deposite on day 1 means problem with final payment e.g i even had one client tell me he never agreed to any extras even after i told him i only charge standard rate not extras rate funniest of all was i got him to buy some of the materials for the extras !!!!! so only do work for money now not talk


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## welder (21 May 2009)

In the last year, I have always insisted on deposits for all work. There are times when I have a big debate about its as you feel as if the money is well spent before the job is completed but at the end of the day, have had no cancellations, materials are covered, and if the final payment is late, at least your not waiting on all your money. I initially insisted on 30% but in recent times its been 40 to 50%. In relation to scaring clients off, I always explain its to cover materials, suppliers unwilling to give credit etc and give a reciept detailing nature of work and deposit recieved.


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## extopia (22 May 2009)

boyle.mick said:


> i can take all said on board we always reach a happy medium but always collect a deposite upon signing of contract it was said to me once IF THEY WON'T GIVE YOU A DEPOSITE THEY CAN'T PAY FOR THE JOB now not to insult anyone but i've tried and tested this and no deposit means no payment and deposite on day 1 means problem with final payment e.g i even had one client tell me he never agreed to any extras even after i told him i only charge standard rate not extras rate funniest of all was i got him to buy some of the materials for the extras !!!!! so only do work for money now not talk



Fair enough. But I won't be hiring you if those are your terms (obviously, if you read my post). Remember, I will always give the suspicious contractor/tradesman the option of checking my references.

"If they won't give you a deposit, they can't pay for the job"?

If that's your experience, I suggest you choose your customers more carefully.

"Deposit on day 1 means problem with final payment"?

Really? I won't insist on the deposit on day 1. That's usually the contractor's terms, with which I'm happy to comply having determined he's good enough to work in my house.


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