# Water Charges - Landlords ultimately Liable - response from Irish Water



## dillons (8 Oct 2014)

I am posting this separately as landlords need to be aware that their liability is basically in the hands of the tenant & whether they chose to register or not.

I just received the below reply from Irish Water to my questions and concerns as a landlord.

It  is very clear from this response that if the tenant does not register, the  landlord will be liable BUT they are not accepting registration details  on behalf of tenants from the landlord so it's really dependent on the  tenant registering & paying

Landlords are going to be screwed on this. I wonder what percentage of tenants will actually register themselves??

_'Thank you for your email regarding your rented property. __The tenant needs to apply for the allowances themselves, the landlord can not do so on their behalf._
_Once  the tenant registers the account in their name they are liable for the  payments and any unpaid bills they will be liable for._
_You will receive notification during the month of October to inform you whether or not they have registered._
_You the landlord will only be liable if they fail to register and fail to pay the bill._
_As  regards the sale of the property in the event of an unpaid bill, the  amount due will stay with the tenant who is liable and not the property.'_

I  have replied to them seeking clarification on the last statement as I  do not understand how the tenant will be liable on the sale of the  property if they never registered in the first place!

This is a mess.


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## Bronte (8 Oct 2014)

This is not true that landlords are liable.  The occupier according to the legislation is liable.  Irish water are telling porkies.  I am currently waiting for their reply to this from me and they are fobbing me off.   My question to them was way more specific than yours. 

They haven't a leg to stand on stateing landlords are liable

(this thread should be merged with the other one)


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## Branz (8 Oct 2014)

I am not doubting Bronte here, just wonder
Are the two bits here not required to make the LL liable
_You the landlord will only be liable if they fail to register *and* fail to pay the bill._

If the form is not filled out by either party, there is no allowance granted and they bill based on their estimate of occupancy, as provided by Revenue.

What is at issue here is not repeating the problems with tenants leaving large utility bills like we have with elec and gas at present


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## Sarenco (16 Oct 2014)

*The following clarification was posted on the Irish Water website yesterday (15/10/14):

Clarification on responsibility of water charges payment

If you live in a house you own, you are responsible for payment of the water charges and should register with Irish Water in order to claim your allowances.
If you rent a property, you are responsible for the payment of the water charges for that property and should register with Irish Water in order to claim your allowances.
If you own a property that is unoccupied you are responsible for payment of the water charges and should register with Irish Water to ensure you are charged the ‘unoccupied’ rate.
If you have a tenant in a property, the tenant is responsible for the payment of the water charge and should register with Irish Water in order to claim their relevant allowances.
If the tenant has not registered with Irish Water, Irish Water will contact the property owner to ensure that the responsible party (ie the tenant) receives the bill. Irish Water will announce details of this shortly.
Should the tenant move out of the property without closing the account, the tenant remains responsible for the payment and Irish Water will follow this up in the standard ways.
 
*


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## Dermot (16 Oct 2014)

I note your comments Sarenco.
So why did Minister Noonan say on the radio today that "Landlords would be ultimately responsible for the water charges if the tenant did not register or pay.  His solution was for landlords to raise the rent to allow for this. You can only increase rent once a year.
You have a crazy situation here if the above is correct as follows:
Landlord cannot register the tenant or make the tenant register.
If the tenant registers that does not guarantee that the tenant will pay.
If the tenant does not pay the landlord will "ultimately be responsible".
If the tenant leaves without paying the bill and the water pressure is turned down it would follow from Minister Noonan's remarks that before it is turned up that the outstanding bill will have to be paid by the landlord.
Minister Noonan's remarks makes a joke of other Government ministers and spokespersons that the metering was a way of promoting water conservation.  If Minister Noonan's remarks are correct tenants can use as much water as they like and not pay a cent.
Minister Noonan's remarks will have the effect of promoting the idea that tenants would be fools to register or pay.
Irish water need to clarify this matter unambiguously as well as many other matters.  The whole matter is a joke for a company which has cost in the region of €180m to set up.


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## Agent 47 (16 Oct 2014)

Seems clear enough to me

16/10/14 - Irish Water website

*Who is responsible for paying the water charges for a rental property?*
*As a tenant: *
If you rent a property, you are responsible for the payment of the water charges for that property and you should complete an application in order to claim your allowances.

*As a landlord: *
If you own a property that is unoccupied you are responsible for payment of the water charges and should register with Irish Water to ensure you are charged the ‘not permanently occupied charge’ . 
If you have a tenant living in a property, the tenant is responsible for the payment of the water charge and should register with Irish Water in order to claim their relevant allowances.
If the tenant has not registered with Irish Water, Irish Water will contact the property owner to ensure that the responsible party (ie the tenant) receives the water bill. Irish Water will announce details of this shortly. 
Should the tenant move out of the property without closing the account, the tenant remains responsible for the payment and Irish Water will follow this up in the standard ways.


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## Bronte (17 Oct 2014)

Dermot said:


> I note your comments Sarenco.
> So why did Minister Noonan say on the radio today that "Landlords would be ultimately responsible for the water charges if the tenant did not register or pay. His solution was for landlords to raise the rent to allow for this. You can only increase rent once a year.
> .


 
Noonan is incorrect.  Irish water are backtracking on this.  See the newtalk 'news' on this or listen to Drivetime yesterday.  

What they have not done is tell us landlords how we prove we are not occupiers.  But they will get there, one of these days.


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## AlbacoreA (17 Oct 2014)

Its a shambles. However the local authorities seem to be forcing the issue to a head with the letters to their tenants.


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## dillons (17 Oct 2014)

Agent 47 said:


> *As a landlord: *
> 
> 
> If the tenant has not registered with Irish Water, Irish Water will contact the property owner to ensure that the responsible party (ie the tenant) receives the water bill. Irish Water will announce details of this shortly.



This seems to contradict the statement that the landlord cannot give details of tenants to Irish Water for 'Data Protection' reasons. So I wonder how Irish Water contacting the property owner will ensure that the responsible party (ie the tenant) receives the water bill if they won't accept tenant details from Landlord

A total joke but at least it's getting some coverage now so should get resolved, more red faces for irish water though!


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## dillons (17 Oct 2014)

dillons said:


> _'Thank you for your email regarding your rented property. __The tenant needs to apply for the allowances themselves, the landlord can not do so on their behalf._
> _Once  the tenant registers the account in their name they are liable for the  payments and any unpaid bills they will be liable for._
> _You will receive notification during the month of October to inform you whether or not they have registered._
> _You the landlord will only be liable if they fail to register and fail to pay the bill._
> ...



I did get another reply from Irish Water dancing around my questions and not providing any clear answers but they finished the email with a reminder of the security notices at the bottom. A nice veiled warning not to circulate it. I guess their watching the forums!


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## Bronte (17 Oct 2014)

AlbacoreA said:


> Its a shambles. However the local authorities seem to be forcing the issue to a head with the letters to their tenants.


 

Incorrect, most councils are saying it has nothing to do with them

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/soci...tay-out-of-tenants-billing-disputes-1.1966840

Also the Irish Property owners association is saying the same thing.


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## Bronte (17 Oct 2014)

dillons said:


> This seems to contradict the statement that the landlord cannot give details of tenants to Irish Water for 'Data Protection' reasons. So I wonder how Irish Water contacting the property owner will ensure that the responsible party (ie the tenant) receives the water bill if they won't accept tenant details from Landlord


 
On this new modern pheonoma of 'data protection'. I understood the only issue was around the PRSI number. 

All Irish landlords have the PRSI numbers of their tenants (I mean of course legit landlords before anyone makes a comment)

We cannot divulge this to anyone other than the PRTB. 

I have had no problem in the past giving my tenants details to the ESB and Bord Gais. I cannot remember now, but ESB is more helpful. I would do this when I change from a tenant to my name and then back to the new tenant. ESB just writes a letter to the new tenant, send me the bill and closes my liability. A fairly simple process. 

With Irish Water, because I'm so cross with hanging on the phone and the stuff I've had to listen to from their incompetent and badly trained staff, plus the email non responses I've received, I will be doing as the IPOA has suggested and I'm not helping Irish Water one bit.

I've also helped the ESB out where a tenant has tried to do a runner. I give them either their new address or their workplace.


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## AlbacoreA (17 Oct 2014)

Bronte said:


> Incorrect, most councils are saying it has nothing to do with them
> 
> http://www.irishtimes.com/news/soci...tay-out-of-tenants-billing-disputes-1.1966840
> 
> Also the Irish Property owners association is saying the same thing.



I was referring to this. I should have been specific. 

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/1016/652691-irish-water/



> Meath County Council has confirmed that it has written to all Rental Accommodation Scheme tenants advising them that they could face eviction if they do not pay their water charges.
> 
> The letter referred to the Tenants' Obligations to the Landlord in the Residential Tenancy Agreement.


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## Setanta12 (17 Oct 2014)

If tenants cause the electricity to be cut-off and leave and won't pay up, the landlord has to be reconnection fees.

No difference as far as I can see.


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## AlbacoreA (17 Oct 2014)

That another system thats broken. From a LL pov. 

LL should really have a deposit that covers all of these. Which would be a 2~3 month deposit in reality.


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## Agent 47 (17 Oct 2014)

Bronte said:


> On this new modern pheonoma of 'data protection'. I understood the only issue was around the PRSI number.
> 
> All Irish landlords have the PRSI numbers of their tenants (I mean of course legit landlords before anyone makes a comment)
> 
> ...


 

Exactly, that is why I sent a registered letter with my Tenants names and address matched to the application pack number to Irish Water. If they can get my details from the PRTB then they can get the Tenants including their PRSI number from the PRTB.


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## Sarenco (17 Oct 2014)

The fact that Irish Water (IW) has now implicitly acknowledged that their previous position on this issue was not supported by the relevant legislation is obviously to be welcomed.  The decision to communicate this about-turn as a "clarification", without any apology, possibly gives us some indication of the general approach and culture of IW.  However, it would be churlish not to acknowledge the fact that IW has, at long last, acknowledged that it was wrong on this issue.

Having said that, there are a number of issues with the "clarification":


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## Dermot (17 Oct 2014)

Agent 47 said:


> Exactly, that is why I sent a registered letter with my Tenants names and address matched to the application pack number to Irish Water. If they can get my details from the PRTB then they can get the Tenants including their PRSI number from the PRTB.



As you can see on another related thread where I suggested doing this I totally agree with this and I have already done this myself.


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## Sarenco (17 Oct 2014)

Firstly, IW are now saying that "if the tenant has not registered with Irish Water, Irish Water will contact the property owner to ensure that the responsible party (ie the tenant) receives the bill". However, as Bronte points out above, IW has no way of knowing that a tenant is in place without checking with the PRTB. There is simply no facility in place for landlords to notify IW that a tenancy is in place in respect of a particular property. If IW checked the position with the PRTB (which they are entitled to do under the legislation) they would have all the necessary details on the relevant tenants and there would be no need to contact the property owner.


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## Sarenco (17 Oct 2014)

Secondly, as already pointed out by dillons, if a landlord could not provide IW with tenant details (including their names) prior to 31 October (or whatever arbitrary date is set by IW) due to data protection concerns (and I am of the opinion that IW are actually correct on this point), then it is unclear how this information could be provided after this date. In other words, what magically happens to make this issue disappear? The reference in the "clarification" to IW announcing details of this "shortly" smacks of long-fingering the problem.


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## Sarenco (17 Oct 2014)

Thirdly, how are IW going to treat tenants that did not receive an application pack?  Will they simply charge them for water without any allowances?  I think we can all anticipate the outcry if IW proceeded on this basis but how else would they impose the charges?


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## Dermot (17 Oct 2014)

I understand what you are saying Sarenco but in my case I have written to Irish Water by registered post with the up to date details (less the PPSN) of my current tenants and the addresses which they are at.
Yes Irish Water can get details from the PRTB but they may not be up to date as a lot of Landlords often just register a tenant and do not update until the 4 years have expired on the property.  I know they are not complying with the law but it does not show up clearly on the PRTB website.
If my experience is anything to go by there are a huge number of rented properties not registered with the PRTB


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## Sarenco (17 Oct 2014)

The mystery to me underlying this whole saga is why IW are not simply accessing the required information from the PRTB as envisaged by the legislation?  You would have to assume that the PRTB systems are up to the task at this stage but if this is not the case then I think we have a bigger problem.

The lack of any public intervention from the CER, IW's regulator, on this issue is also a cause for concern. The fact that IW only published a "clarification" on this issue in response to a public request/demand from a senior government minister is not the appropriate way for a public utility to conduct its business.

Finally, I have been personally surprised at the muted media reaction to this issue (which was raised weeks ago on this forum), given the significant numbers of people that are impacted and the large sums involved (when taken in aggregate). Hopefully the recent media attention will prompt IW to put in place a proper system for dealing with changes in the occupation of properties, along the lines of those used by other utility companies.


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## Boyd (17 Oct 2014)

I rent flat A at moment. I have received nothing about water charged for IW or landlord. I'm moving to flat B two streets over at end of month.....what am I supposed to do re: water charges? I certainly don't want to end up paying twice. Total lack of clear information on this from appropriate bodies


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## Sarenco (17 Oct 2014)

Dermot said:


> If my experience is anything to go by there are a huge number of rented properties not registered with the PRTB


 
Under the relevant Irish Water legislation, there is a presumption that the owner and occupier of a property are one and the same, unless it can be proven otherwise. It seems to me that it would be very difficult for a landlord who has not registered a tenancy with the PRTB to prove that the relevant property is in fact occupied by a tenant without simultaneously admitting to a criminal offence. In such circumstances, discharging a tenant's outstanding water charges might well be the better option!


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## Dermot (17 Oct 2014)

Sarenco said:


> Under the relevant legislation, there is a presumption that the owner and occupier of a property are one and same, unless it can be proven otherwise.  It seems to me that it would be very difficult for a landlord who has not registered a tenancy in respect of a particular property with the PRTB to prove that the relevant property is in fact occupied by a tenant without simultaneously admitting to a criminal offence.  In such circumstances, discharging a tenant's outstanding water charges might well be the better option!



I see a lot of problems for some Landlords so if that is the situation.  I am not an admirer of the PRTB but I have all registered and up to date for my own peace of mind.


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## Sarenco (17 Oct 2014)

Dermot said:


> I understand what you are saying Sarenco but in my case I have written to Irish Water by registered post with the up to date details (less the PPSN) of my current tenants and the addresses which they are at.


 
Dermot, while I don't mean this as a criticism of your actions, it seems to me that it is unwise to provide personal data (such as names, addresses and other identifiers) in respect of any individual to any body, without the express written consent of the individual concerned, in the absence of an explicit legal compulsion or authority. I would certainly be upset if somebody provided my personal details to anybody without my consent.


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## Sarenco (17 Oct 2014)

username123 said:


> I rent flat A at moment. I have received nothing about water charged for IW or landlord. I'm moving to flat B two streets over at end of month.....what am I supposed to do re: water charges? I certainly don't want to end up paying twice. Total lack of clear information on this from appropriate bodies


 
This is precisely the sort of situation that a robust system should be able to handle.  If other utilities can deal with changes in the occupation of properties, I see no reason why IW cannot put appropriate arrangements in place.

While I am personally convinced that the principle of charging people for water is sound, at this stage I think a political decision should be made to defer the introduction of water charges for a fixed period to allow IW sufficient time to put appropriate structures in place to deal with what is undoubtedly a complex administrative project.  Ideally, I would also like to see the completion of the metering exercise before charges are imposed but I accept that is probably wishful thinking on my part.


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## Dermot (17 Oct 2014)

I note your reply but I am only gave them them the information that I *have* to give the PRTB (less the PPSN) without the tenants permission.  If I had to get their "express written consent" I could end up with the bills myself. 
I would not see myself as having broken any privacy laws here?.


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## Sarenco (17 Oct 2014)

Dermot said:


> I see a lot of problems for some Landlords so if that is the situation. I am not an admirer of the PRTB but I have all registered and up to date for my own peace of mind.


 
Agreed but I think we can all agree that everybody would be better off if all landlords went "legit" (whatever about the shortcomings of the PRTB).


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## Sarenco (17 Oct 2014)

Dermot said:


> I note your reply but I am only gave them them the information that I *have* to give the PRTB (less the PPSN) without the tenants permission. If I had to get their "express written consent" I could end up with the bills myself.
> I would not see myself as having broken any privacy laws here?.


 
Dermot, I genuinely do not mean to imply any criticism and it is clear to me that you have acted in good faith and in a reasonable manner. 

Having said that, a landlord has a legal obligation, imposed by statute, to supply certain personal details regarding his or her tenants to the PRTB. There is no such obligation (or entitlement) to provide similar personal details to IW and it seems to me that a landlord acting to protect his or her own position is not a defence to any possible breach of data protection law. I am only speaking hypothetically here and not commenting on any particular situation.

The problem obviously stems from IW's initial assertion (now corrected) that a landlord would ultimately be liable for a tenant's water charges.


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## Dermot (17 Oct 2014)

Sarenco.  No offence taken whatsoever.  I had this done before IW issued their clarification. I am just trying to get the best advice that I can.  I am the type of person who likes to sit down and get all things sorted out and legit  and then forget about it.  I am not particularly fond of paperwork like a lot of people.  I appreciate your advice and others here as well. 
This IW thing is a half baked scheme and information that is factually correct has been very slow in being put out in the public domain.


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## Dermot (17 Oct 2014)

What will the position be when IW write to landlords seeking the names and addresses of tenants in their properties?.


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## Sarenco (17 Oct 2014)

Dermot said:


> What will the position be when IW write to landlords seeking the names and addresses of tenants in their properties?.


 
I don't think IW know themselves how they are going to solve this problem (and hence the reference in their "clarification" to details being announced "shortly").


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## Dermot (17 Oct 2014)

Sarenco You should apply for the job of legal advisor.  With all the money floating around in that outfit one more would be no problem.


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## Sarenco (17 Oct 2014)

Dermot said:


> Sarenco You should apply for the job of legal advisor.  With all the money floating around in that outfit one more would be no problem.



Ha!  Seriously though, does the job come with a bonus...


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## Agent 47 (17 Oct 2014)

Dermot said:


> I note your reply but I am only gave them them the information that I *have* to give the PRTB (less the PPSN) without the tenants permission.  If I had to get their "express written consent" I could end up with the bills myself.
> I would not see myself as having broken any privacy laws here?.



Ditto, did likewise. I asked Tenants to let me know that they had sent in the application and all I got was the sound of silence. I am not picking up a Tenants water bill, I have and am paying enough bills along with PRTB. I left it to Irish Water to make contact and resend application packs to the named Tenants.


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## Singer (18 Oct 2014)

What do you do if 

a) You are a landlord and have not received any letter from IW about water charges for your rental property.

b) You are a tenant and have not received a letter from IW about water charges.


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## Sarenco (21 Nov 2014)

The saga continues...

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/landlords-seek-clarity-on-water-tax-arrears-298916.html

The notion that a private citizen (a landlord) can be legally compelled to act as a debt collection agency for an unrelated private company (Irish Water) is totally bizarre.  We are now moving steadily from a mere shambles into farcical territory.


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## Gerry Canning (21 Nov 2014)

There has been such a mess made of this ,there are so many (issues) arising that maybe no-one should pay for now. It is not good to encourage Government when even they belatedly know they have fouled up.
On reading other threads and listening to radio, unless this train is halted and reviewed we are only can kicking the issue.
It is not atall fair that AAM people have to even have queries on what should be simple.
I just can,t see the 90%+ paying that Irish Water seem to need to be EU viable.
So maybe lets just kill this off now ?
At least we can thus avoid pushing it down the road.


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## Sarenco (21 Nov 2014)

I couldn't agree more Gerry.

Roisin Shorthall commented on the Vincent Brown show yesterday evening that the new government proposals appeared to be designed to fail.  Summed it up neatly for me.

I'm actually starting to wonder if the government are secretly hoping that the Commission or Eurostat will strike down their own proposals so that they can roll out "the big boys made me do it" excuse.


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## Sarenco (23 Jan 2015)

Does anybody know if there has been any movement on this issue since the new year?


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## Dermot (24 Jan 2015)

I put all my concerns as a landlord in writing to my local (Government) TD.  He rang me back and stated that he accepted that they were very good points that I had raised and that he was actually meeting the current Minister responsible for the water mess a few days later and would raise them with him.  This was prior to the legislation being debated and passed in the Dail.  
He told me he would ring me back on the matter and I said to him that there was no point in doing so unless there were remedies in the legislation to my concerns.  He said he understood.
I have not received that phone call or an email.  I take it that as a no improvement in any of my concerns.


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## Dermot (24 Jan 2015)

Sarenco said:


> I'm actually starting to wonder if the government are secretly hoping that the Commission or Eurostat will strike down their own proposals so that they can roll out "the big boys made me do it" excuse.



If the true facts of the sums collected are given the figures will not be enough to pass the criteria as set down.


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## Sarenco (24 Jan 2015)

Thanks Dermot.

The plan to compel landlords to pay unpaid water charges from tenant deposits was not reflected in the amending legislation and the Minister said he was postponing the introduction of this requirement pending consultation with landlord representatives.  However, I haven't seen any reports that would suggest that any steps have been taken to start this consultation exercise.

On the broader issue, I agree that it is looking increasingly clear that IW will not be in a position to collect sufficient sums in water charges to pass the European market corporation test.  

The ongoing political failure to get on top of the IW issue is truly amazing.


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## Eisenhardt (1 Aug 2016)

Agent 47 said:


> Exactly, that is why I sent a registered letter with my Tenants names and address matched to the application pack number to Irish Water. If they can get my details from the PRTB then they can get the Tenants including their PRSI number from the PRTB.


My tenant who is in the RAS refused to give me her pps no and those of her kids.... I needed them for the PRTB... ?????


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## Nordkapp (1 Aug 2016)

If you had done a proper lease the PRTB form would have been part of that, you would have had the PPS number from either document.

Anyway, old hat, there are no more bills for Irish water but perhaps you need to open a new thread on the PRTB issue you have and getting PPS number.


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## Eisenhardt (1 Aug 2016)

I also rang Irish water and asked about tenant...they told me I was not responsible for the water my tenant was using and that because I notified them and gave them her name they would write to her and all charges Would go to her now..  Landlord not responsible


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## Dermot (1 Aug 2016)

Eisenhardt said:


> My tenant who is in the RAS refused to give me her pps no and those of her kids.... I needed them for the PRTB... ?????



As long as you state that you have asked for the PPS No of the official tenant and you could not obtain it RTB will register your tenancy


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