# Anyone else caught with apartment in Carrick-on-Shannon ?



## rabbit

Hi, I bought an apartment about 4 years ago in Carrick-on-Shannon, Co. Leitrim, brand new from a well known auctioneer there. Given the so called celtic tiger boom of the past 3 or 4 years guess how much profit I would make if I was to sell it ? ZERO. I have been on the phone to the auctioneer recently and the most I could expect for it if I sold it furnished is only ten thousand more than I bought it for. Given the fact I spent good money on a top of the range fit out / furniture package - not included in the purchase price - and the fact I would have to pay auctioneer / solicitor fees if I sold it, I would be selling at less than it cost me, even though it is in excellent condition. 

If this is celtic tiger boom, what will the down turn / recession be like ?


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## markowitzman

is it let?


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## rabbit

yes, I have a careful clean non-smoking MBNA employee in it on a lease , but who can be "got rid of" ( excuse the language ) at 30 days notice if required. However, as the tenant is a good tenant and prompt payer of rent each month, the auctioneer says it would be easier to sell with the tenant in place, as the apartment would probably be bought by an investor.   Bear in mind some Apartments in Carrick are empty / unlet.   Mine was for a good while.  One other thing ; the auctioneer said most buyers have disappeared for the summer, so if I put it on the market now it would probably not sell until the Autumn. 

To be honest, I wish I had not "invested" there at all.


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## markowitzman

I was put off by the lack of lights on in appts during the winter nights as I often drive thru. Would not sell if you have a tenant unless you are under pressure to sell.


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## jellyshots

markowitzman said:
			
		

> I was put off by the lack of lights on in appts during the winter nights as I often drive thru. Would not sell if you have a tenant unless you are under pressure to sell.


 
True but maybe you are better off taking a small profit and running if you haven't made much in 3/4 years. If a lot of them are unlet and the owners of similiar apartments decide to sell you could have a lot of competing apartments on the market with the owners willing to sell for slightly less than you and your profit is gone altogether. Might be better to get out first than be left holding the baby so to speak.


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## ClubMan

This sounds more like a _Letting Off Steam _than a _Property Investment _thread to me to be honest...



			
				rabbit said:
			
		

> yes, I have a careful clean non-smoking MBNA employee in it on a lease ,


 When you factor in rental income to date are you still at breakeven or at a loss?


> To be honest, I wish I had not "invested" there at all.


 How and why did you decide that property, and this one in particular, was the most appropriate investment option for your specific needs in preference to all of the other options available? Was this a calculated investment where you researched it carefully, obtained independent/professional advice and crunched the numbers to check the potential viability of your plan or simply a "punt"?


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## rabbit

Taking borrowing / interest paid in to account, maintenance charges, cost of outfitting / furniture etc, the empty periods and then the cost of selling - auctioneers fees, solicitors fees etc - I am looking at a loss, despite our celtic tiger boom of the past 4 years.   I wish I had invested in Dublin or elsewhere where property has at least appreciated.     

4 years ago I researched the property market as fully as I could - but nobody then knew for certain what way the property market in Leitrim, Dublin or elsewhere was going to go - just as people do not know now what the next 4 years will bring.   Unfortunately too many apartments have been built in Carrick over the last 4 years it seems, there has not been enough new employment / govt offices decentralised to places like that yet etc.

There is another one bedroom apartment there for sale for 140,000, which is the same price it was sold new for 3 or 4 years ago. 

To sell or to hold on, that is the question. I think I will hold on for another while. I suppose all property investment is "a punt" if you want to call it that.


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## markowitzman

what rent do you get?
what is nett yield?


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## ClubMan

rabbit said:
			
		

> 4 years ago I researched the property market as fully as I could


But did you also research the other possible investment options open to you and then decide that property was the most appropriate for your specific needs? Or did you just plump for property?


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## markowitzman

fair point clubman.
that said despite all the research one can do prior to investing in a buy to let it is a punt in my book until the tenant is in.
At the time of signover there is always a nauseous feeling in my stomach asking me whether this could be a turkey or not!
If I was in rabbit's position (and I have!) I would avoid selling at all costs.
Instead I would go for a lowball rent and maybe throw in broadband in the ad for example. Get the tenant on a 12 month lease.......take the loss but treat them well and hope you can get them to renew at a bumped up rent or hope market strengthens.
As capital cost is low rabbit should be able to shoulder loss for a few years and get self financing soon. In the interim capital appreciation will cover shortfall even if only a % or two.


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## ClubMan

markowitzman said:
			
		

> As capital cost is low rabbit should be able to shoulder loss for a few years and get self financing soon.


 You mean that rent will eventually cover the ongoing (and previously incurred?) costs bring him to breakeven or even profit (real or nominal?)? Why do you think that this would  necessarily be so?


> In the interim capital appreciation will cover shortfall even if only a % or two.


 Says who?


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## rabbit

I looked at other investment options like shares - it was not long after 9/11 and shares looked dodgey then.   I know hindsight is a great thing.   Interest rates on savings meant deposits of say 50 to 100k hardly kept up with inflation after dirt tax paid etc.   MBNA ( the main employer in Carrick ) was expanding at the time, another big employer called Masonite 10 minutes out the road was also doing well / recruiting.   Compared to Dublin etc, you could get - still can get - a fine apartment for your money. 

I cannot blame anyone.   I knew the risks when investing in property.  Just wondering if anyone else here had interesting experiences in Co. Leitrim property market ?  And what / when they perceive to be the best way out ?  Wondering about trying to sell / advertise direct the apt. without paying the local auctioneer the guts of 4,000 to sell it for me....but reakon I will have to use an auctioneer, as most people probably prefer to buy through one I suppose.

Hindsight is a great thing in investing.  Ah well, could be worse.   By the way, the rent I get is 500 per month for a 2 bedroom apt. there.   Rents have fallen there a bit and as I say some apartments are empty there it seems - I know mine has been before the current tenant.    I was looking for 550 p.m. but was eventually happy to settle for 500.


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## markowitzman

my point is that rabbit will crystalise a large loss by selling.
At interest only he would be paying something like 4-4.5kpa on say 90% finance?
My god he surely is getting more than 70 euro per week rent?
So worse case scenario is a shortfall of 1-2kpa inc maint and insure?
140k@ 1-2% capital appreciation would mean break even thereby deferring a catastrophic loss if he were to sell? 
Am I missing something here?.......sure appreciation is a projection......am just basing it on what he got per annum thus far (past performance is no guide..blah..blah to future returns!).
My gut would never sell a buy to let with a sitting tenant!..........still some gut lining left!


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## markowitzman

rabbit for crying out loud you are getting decent rent for this.
Good yield and sitting tenant.
castlebar properties 3-4 beds worth 250-350k get the same rent with many vacant. 
Dont sell just take care of the tenant.
Sorry for being blunt but where else in Ireland are you going to get that yield?


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## rabbit

The yield is not the thing I am disappointed about.   Rent is 500 per month now it is occupied , = 6000 per annum, minus a maintenance charge of approx 1300 per annum.    Net Yield is 4700 euro per annum assuming it is always let - it has been unoccupied approx 30 % of time I have had it. 

The thing I am really disappointed about is lack of capital growth.   If it had appreciated by even say 5% or 10 % per annum that would have made a big difference to the bottom line.


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## rabbit

markowitzman said:
			
		

> rabbit for crying out loud you are getting decent rent for this.
> Good yield and sitting tenant.
> castlebar properties 3-4 beds worth 250-350k get the same rent with many vacant.
> Dont sell just take care of the tenant.
> Sorry for being blunt but where else in Ireland are you going to get that yield?


 
Did not know Castlebar was like that as well...are the 3-4 bed properties there getting rents of 500 per month modern ones with good quality , smart furniture etc ?


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## markowitzman

absolutely mostly new builds and first lets with all mod cons.
many are vacant
12 month lease at lower rent will reduce vacancy % although 30% is scary.
I think there are so many tax break properties in carrick that this is stunting capital appreciation.
Always is the worry of a mass sell off on expiry of tax breaks?


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## kirian

markowitzman said:
			
		

> Sorry for being blunt but where else in Ireland are you going to get that yield?



markowitzman, I think you are basing your calculation of the yield on a monthly rent of 500 and the apartment being worth 140k. But I think the 140k figure rabbit mentioned was for a 1 bed in the same development and rabbit has a 2 bed I think. So the yield is probably less than you think? We need to know the value of rabbits apartment to calculate the yield.


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## ClubMan

rabbit said:
			
		

> By the way, the rent I get is 500 per month for a 2 bedroom apt. there.   Rents have fallen there a bit and as I say some apartments are empty there it seems - I know mine has been before the current tenant.    I was looking for 550 p.m. but was eventually happy to settle for 500.


Is that €500 gross or net of tax, expenses and allowance?


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## rabbit

kirian said:
			
		

> markowitzman, I think you are basing your calculation of the yield on a monthly rent of 500 and the apartment being worth 140k. But I think the 140k figure rabbit mentioned was for a 1 bed in the same development and rabbit has a 2 bed I think. So the yield is probably less than you think? We need to know the value of rabbits apartment to calculate the yield.


 
Yes, my apartment is 2 bedroom ( inc one en-suite ) in a nice development, centrally located between MBNA ( the main employer in the town / county ) and the town centre. It is just a matter of hundreds of meters to each. As regards price, I bought it for 178,000 euro, then spend thousands on furniture ( leather suite etc ), curtains, etc and now the auctioneer the Carrick says it is worth 189,000 at most, and even then it is likely I would have to wait until the Autumn to achieve that if I put it on the market now. Out of the 189,000 if I got that I would have to pay auctioneers fees ( 2% they quoted ) , plus auctioneers advertising fees( he said maybe 750 euro ) ,my solicitors fees etc. ...and even a few hundred euro for auctioneers advertising boards he said. In short, I would most likely get back less money than the apartment cost me, so Leitrim must be one of the few counties in Ireland with such poor capital growth in its apartments over the past 4 years ? I heard on the radio that houses have gone up by 30,000 each year in Dublin in the past 10 years - I guess the exceptional growth in Dublin balances out practically zero growth in places like Carrick-on-Shannon to give us our national property boom.


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## gordongekko

The 2005 year-end edition of the* permanent tsb* House Price Index - compiled in association with the ESRI - reveals that house prices nationally grew by 9.3% during 2005. This compares to annual growth of 8.6% 2004. 

Significantly the index reveals that the rate of house price growth accelerated during the year – unlike previous years when price growth tended to moderate as the year progressed.  Dividing the year into two reveals that the rate of house price growth rose at more than twice the rate in the second half of 2005 (6.7%) than in the first half of the year (2.5%), the equivalent rates in 2004 were 3.7% and 4.7% respectively. 

The index also reveals that the cost of houses for First Time Buyers grew significantly faster than was the case for second-time buyers or indeed any other market sector.  According to the index, the price of houses for First Time Buyers rose by 12.7% in 2005 compared to an increase of 8.3% for second time buyers. The average price paid for a house by a First Time Buyer is now just shy of a quarter of a million euro - some €249,499.

*And on a county by county analysis, the index reveals that County Kerry set the pace for price growth during the year – with a rise in average prices of 15%.  This compares to an average rise of 10% for houses in Dublin City and County and an average rise of just 2% for houses in Co. Leitrim.*

Looking specifically at December, the price of houses nationally rose by 1.2% during the month, unchanged from November '05 and six times the rate in December ‘04 (0.2%).


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## bearishbull

You havent got the capital growth (which is what you only seem to be interested in) and are unlikely to see any significant growth in overdeveloped leitrim.cash in and look at alternative investments.could you have bought in dublin/east coast 4 years ago? i think your always better investing in/near major population/employment centres. Had to laugh when i heard shane filan from westlife was going into property development with his brother and their first development was in leitrim! the guy has made big money with westlife and now is risking it all!


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## rabbit

ClubMan said:
			
		

> Is that €500 gross or net of tax, expenses and allowance?


 

Rent is 6000 gross per annum as it stands....while my tenant is in place.   Approx 30% of the time it has been empty. 
As I said, there is a block management charge - to cover things like public area lighting , lawn cutting , maintenance , cost of lift repairs/ running costs etc.   This has to be paid of course even if / when the apt. is empty.  
It is a section 23 / section 27 type apt. - this is one of the reasons I bought it  / one of its selling points - so at least the rent is tax free for the first ten years.   Still saving a grand or two on tax each year does not really compensate on missing out on the property boom elsewhere.
I am not sure to try to sell it soon - the auctioneer says it would not sell in the summer because everyone is away on holidays etc - or hang on another few years - and what will the market be like there in another few years , or what would happen if the towns main employer pulled out to move to a lower cost country etc etc.

I am glad I was not tempted to borrow to buy another apt there, as the 1 bedroom that was for sale for 140 grand then is for sale again for the last number of months at 140 grand.


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## rabbit

gordongekko said:
			
		

> *And on a county by county analysis, the index reveals that County Kerry set the pace for price growth during the year – with a rise in average prices of 15%. This compares to an average rise of 10% for houses in Dublin City and County and an average rise of just 2% for houses in Co. Leitrim.*
> 
> .


 
Thanks for that.   It backs up my case.   General inflation rose more than house prices in Leitrim during the year.    It could even be the case that in Leitrim, house prices in the county ( rural areas ) rose say 4% and apartment prices in the town rose 0%, I do not know.


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## rabbit

bearishbull said:
			
		

> You havent got the capital growth (which is what you only seem to be interested in) and are unlikely to see any significant growth in overdeveloped leitrim.cash in and look at alternative investments.could you have bought in dublin/east coast 4 years ago? i think your always better investing in/near major population/employment centres. Had to laugh when i heard shane filan from westlife was going into property development with his brother and their first development was in leitrim! the guy has made big money with westlife and now is risking it all!


 
I perhaps could have bought in Dublin 4 years ago but I would have been stretching myself too much to borrow the extra money.   If I had known there was going to be the capital appeciation in Dublin there has been , then yes I could have justified and and more importantly justified it to my accountant / bank manager, but even 4 years ago nobody could guarantee - and few people thought - that prices would continue to rise so much in Dublin.   Hindsight is great.

Looking to the future, which is likely to fall more if / when there is a downturn in the market - an apartment for 140,000 in Carrick on Shannon , Leitrims main town  or an similar spec / size apartment for  400,000 in Dublin ? 

In Ringsend there are apartments now for about 650,000 I heard - I do not know for certain what prices will be like in Leitrim or Dublin in a year or 2, all we can do is try to make an educated guess as best we can.


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## bearishbull

rabbit said:
			
		

> I perhaps could have bought in Dublin 4 years ago but I would have been stretching myself too much to borrow the extra money. If I had known there was going to be the capital appeciation in Dublin there has been , then yes I could have justified and and more importantly justified it to my accountant / bank manager, but even 4 years ago nobody could guarantee - and few people thought - that prices would continue to rise so much in Dublin. Hindsight is great.
> 
> Looking to the future, which is likely to fall more if / when there is a downturn in the market - an apartment for 140,000 in Carrick on Shannon , Leitrims main town or an similar spec / size apartment for 400,000 in Dublin ?
> 
> In Ringsend there are apartments now for about 650,000 I heard - I do not know for certain what prices will be like in Leitrim or Dublin in a year or 2, all we can do is try to make an educated guess as best we can.


 
my friend bought a 2bed apartment in ashbourne last year for 215k and they now go for 250k or more and the rent is pretty good around 900 a month.cant help thinking you overpaid in the first place due to sect23?


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## rabbit

In hindsight yes but I was not the only one.   I think one of the problems with Carrick is too many apartments were built.   Mine was supposed to be one of the last tax incentive ones but as far as I can make out the minister for finance kept extending the scheme.


I wonder in 4 years will your friend in ashbourne still be winning ?   I hope so, I do not begrudge anyone a fair or even good return if they make the investment.


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## markowitzman

yes sec23 premium is the problem
but if you sell there will be clawback of relief obtained?
has this been factored in?
have you other investment property that is profitable?
if so you should keep.


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## Howitzer

If this is a S23 apartment then it's actually a depreciating asset in it's own right since the tax break which is built into the price gets used up each year. As if it's worth more or the same now as when you bought then it has actually appreciated in value. Scant consolation I'm sure. Expect to many similar such posts once all the S23/S50 apts come back onto the market as 2nd hand properties.


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## rabbit

As the tax relief is only worth a couple of grand a year max. ( rents have decreased in the area ) then in retrospect it has not been worth the hassle / expense of tying up / borrowing so much money for so long.  The auctioneers / builders are the only ones who have done well out of it.  If the govt had not kept extending the expiry date of the window of opportunity for building section 23 units that would have helped as well.


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## Marconi2012

Sorry to hear about your predicament... But i know friends with houses (3 bedrooms and new) in Longford town and smaller towns in the region like Ballymahon, Rooskey etc and they are now willing to accept 350 per month if they can get them into long term leases (12 months plus)- They reckon they are the lucky ones to have some rent coming in!

Have you checked the RAS (Rental Accommodation Scheme) with the Housing Section of the Local Council. They might be willing to rent on a long term basis under the scheme (check www.sdcc.ie for details of how the scheme works in Dublin).


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## tayrowjet

Why not try and sell it yourself and cut out the costs and fees? Research the areas you could advertise free such as the buy and sell. We found our house there.


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## liteweight

tayrowjet said:
			
		

> Why not try and sell it yourself and cut out the costs and fees? Research the areas you could advertise free such as the buy and sell. We found our house there.



There's also daft.ie. Beware though..all of these free sites attract estate agents who waste your time with calls and emails.


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## Kitten

Friends of ours jumped on the 'apparent' boom in the UK apartment market last year - think they bought in Manchester (not 100% sure) but they are all seriously up against it now - can't sell, rent doesn't cover mortgages and have had to use any equity in their own homes to finance - one guy is being hit with an additional 800 stg a month trying to cover.  It's starting to affect his own business..........serious stuff. 

We took a major stretch in Jan 04 and bought a house in Dundrum having just bought an apt in Dun Laoghaire - we just sold the apt and cleared 100k after fees/cgt etc and our house has actually over doubled which is just ridiculous - not complaining mind.

Rabitt, hang in there  - I wouldn't bail yet, you have a tenant, it could be alot worse.  
Best of luck.
Kitten


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## Guest127

Think the ptsb county by county 10 year report is due out this week.


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## Culchie

My neighbour (who is a developer) was selling 2 bed apartments in Carrick on Shannon 4 years ago for €143000, just on the Sligo side of the town, and adjacent to river.

I think your perceived lack of capital growth is due to the fact that it appears you paid over the odds at the start at €189000.

I'd hang on in there, Sligo is being developed very strongly, and subject to major infrastructural improvement, property prices are rising very fast in Sligo, and I'm sure for any first time buyers, Carrick is a good 'Plan B'.


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## Howitzer

Culchie said:
			
		

> I think your perceived lack of capital growth is due to the fact that it appears you paid over the odds at the start at €189000.


 
I don't think the OP paid over the odds, he bought an apartment AND a tax break. The value of the apartment must have increased by quite a bit for the the entire package to still be worth more or less the same in value, it's just that the depreciating tax break makes up such a large part of the initial price. As such the apartment itself would probably have been a sound investment if there hadn't been a massive premium to pay for the tax break.

It'll probably take another couple of years for this to dawn on a lot of investors.


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## Dipole

I think the poster paid over the odds and it may not have been the appropriate property to buy if the poster didn't have another house to offset tax against.

I was looking at s.23 property in longford at the time for my father and there were very good new three bed houses in a nice part of the town for 170,000 at the time - s23 included and not econo-box design.
As the property was sold on the basis of s.23 it was competing with superior products like this and should have been sold cheaper.

The mgmt. fee seems very high for the back and beyonds - between two and three months rent.

Staying still might be the best option now.


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## Howitzer

Dipole said:
			
		

> As the property was sold on the basis of s.23 it was competing with superior products like this and should have been sold cheaper.


 
Not necessarily, the tax break on the Carrick apt may have been greater. You'd need to factor out the tax breaks before you can compare them like for like. But yeah, can't argue otherwise.


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## bobsoap05

Dear Rabbit, The one thing a property investor should consider is rental income and its ability to cover the mortgage, bils, fees etc. You should never presume that capital growth is a sure thing. I feel that a lot of novice property speculators are going to be burnt if there is any type of wobble in the market.  I know an extended family member that went on a holiday to Murcia in Spain and returned owning a 2bed apt. She can barely afford her own house.  CRAZY.


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## rabbit

bobsoap05 said:
			
		

> Dear Rabbit, The one thing a property investor should consider is rental income and its ability to cover the mortgage, bils, fees etc. You should never presume that capital growth is a sure thing.


 
I know that : I never presumed that capital growth was a sure thing.   However, given that the rest of the country, esp the greater Dublin region, has enjoyed massive capital appreciation in property prices, its just a pity that the apartments which were 140,000  odd in Carrick 34 years ago are still worth that, and the apts worth 178,000  odd are still worth less than 190,000.

Too many ( often ugly + badly designed ) apartment blocks were built by greedy developers after the tax incentive scheme was extended by the govt. time and time again, while not enough new employment came to town.   Basic supply and demand.


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## jpd

No one forces anyone to buy a property - the buyer decideds to buy it so I think its a bit off to blame builders for building ugly appartments - you should blame the buyers for buying them!


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## Sunnyboy

If I were you I'd bite the bullet and sell. There were many reasons that property prices in Dublin rose. 1. A shortage of suitable land. Various parties has built up significant land banks over the years and only released them in dribs and drabs. 2. Increased population and jobs. 3. Low interest rates.

At the moment you are selling with a tenant in situ and this will add to the value of the property. Reading this thread and having passed through Carrick several times it is easy to see that there is an oversupply of apartments in Leitrim. This situation is unlikely to change in the forseeable future.

What happens if your tenant decides to move for whatever reason. You could be servicing that debt with no income from the property and could be forced into a distressed sale. If, for any reason MBNA decided to close down or relocate you wouldn't be able to give property away down there, especially with such high service charges. 

Are there more apartments going up in the town? There is always going to be limited demand in a small town. Once this demand is satisfied there is only one way prices can go. 

My advice is get out now while you can more or less intact. Then again I have always been a pessimist.


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## markowitzman

what is the clawback on the sec 23 relief obtained if your sell?


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## soma

Am I the only one stunned at the thought of annual management fees of over two and a half times the gross monthly rent!?


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## Marcecie

markowitzman said:
			
		

> rabbit for crying out loud you are getting decent rent for this.
> Good yield and sitting tenant.
> castlebar properties 3-4 beds worth 250-350k get the same rent with many vacant.
> Dont sell just take care of the tenant.
> Sorry for being blunt but where else in Ireland are you going to get that yield?



are you sure about the Castlebar rental? reason I ask is several people I know are renting in Castlebar including my niece and all are paying 585 or more rent for a 3 bed semi also I know houses in the Balla area which is 20 mins drive are getting at least 585 rent per month again 3 bed semi


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## badabing

My vote is sell too. The yield is lower than interest rates, so with vacancy and other fees this apartment is a net liability. There are no great prospects for yields to increase in the medium term in this area. With rising interest rates there is a chance that in a stagnant market, it will take time to shift down the line. It can take a bit of courage and conviction to admit to yourself you made a bad investment and cut your losses (which are not huge) but it is a good trait for an investor to have. 

The flipside is you can release the money you have invested and now start to make it work for you elsewhere.

Theres no harm in putting it on the market right away, there may be people holidaying there over the summer, and I think it would fetch a better price with the sitting tenant. Youi will be selling to someone who wants to use this as a tax write off. Make sure to factor the S23 tax clawback into your figures if it applies


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## markowitzman

badabing you are not comparing like with like re deposit rates is rabbit has a mortgage on the appt due to the leverage effect.
Castlebar.....number of friends let houses and to ensure no vacancy cannot go above 550-600. There seems to be a glut in castlebar.
Funny enough rural areas get similar or greater rents in mayo!
I think people want to get out of estates in cbar or ballina?


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## badabing

markowitzman said:
			
		

> badabing you are not comparing like with like re deposit rates is rabbit has a mortgage on the appt due to the leverage effect.



I'm referring to mortgage interest rates here not deposit rates


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## Culchie

markowitzman said:
			
		

> badabing you are not comparing like with like re deposit rates is rabbit has a mortgage on the appt due to the leverage effect.
> Castlebar.....number of friends let houses and to ensure no vacancy cannot go above 550-600. There seems to be a glut in castlebar.
> Funny enough rural areas get similar or greater rents in mayo!
> I think people want to get out of estates in cbar or ballina?


 
Agreed.

Commuting is so easy, young people will rent in their own towns before building their own homes, that is the typical trend.

Have had 3 sets of tenants over last 8 years, all 3 did the same...rent out whilst building.
This is in a rural town, and the rent would be approx 10% more than similar house in Castlebar/Ballina


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## Smi1er

So you have a place "worth" £180K and you are currently achieving 3.33% rental yield. Not good.

Many other properties are nearby. One day your tenant will wake up and smell the coffee. Their next point of action will be to you telling you that unless you drop the rent to say 400 then they are off.

It appears you bought an overpriced place. It happens. You state you didn't count of capital growth? Then why buy the place?

My advice is sell.


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## JohnBoy

..cannot disagree with the Smi1er. In the short to medium term it is unlikely that the rental income will increase to a level whereby the property will generate a reasonable net income. More importantly, if the value of this property has not increased whislt the rest of the country has seen an unprecedented boom - what do you think will happen when the market calms down (or God forbid - even falls a little)?


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## CmTaz

soma said:
			
		

> Am I the only one stunned at the thought of annual management fees of over two and a half times the gross monthly rent!?


 
No - pure lunacy


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## rabbit

The lift, lawns, rubbish disposal, block insurance, cleaning of common areas  etc has to be paid...that said , I suspect the management company are doing ok for all they do.   Nice little earner for buddies of the auctioneers.   Anyway , in fairness, annual management fees of 1300 euro would be considered a bargain in parts of Dublin would they not ?


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## gordongekko

This post will be deleted if not edited immediately my management fees are only 350 p/a maybe this is a title thread for the cheapest and dearest management fees


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## z107

> Anyway , in fairness, annual management fees of 1300 euro would be considered a bargain in parts of Dublin would they not ?



Yes, but you're not in Dublin. (You're also not getting Dublin appreciation or rental return)


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## rabbit

gordongekko said:
			
		

> This post will be deleted if not edited immediately my management fees are only 350 p/a maybe this is a title thread for the cheapest and dearest management fees


 
Your management charge includes lift, lawns, rubbish disposal, block insurance, cleaning of common areas, common area electricity inside and out,  etc ...all for 350 euro  p.a.  ?   Where in the country is that ?


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## wolfie

Just as i said months ago , the amateur buy to let crowd are running scared . Its people like this that have been jacking up prices to artificial levels for years and creating this two tier society we now live in.


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## rabbit

So wolfie, you think no investors should ever have invested in property to let out to tenants ?    Better the so called two tier society we have ( where at least most people have a reasonable standard of living ) than those societies where no investors were allowed to invest in property. 

Do not forget the govt wanted investors to invest in places like Carrick-on-Shannon - otherwise why grant them section 23 status.

As regards "amateur", I had other investmests ( inc property ) before Carrick.    My accountant handles things like capital gains tax , income tax etc professionally - he would want to for the fees he charges.

Prices in Carrick are not really "jacked up" - where else would you get a fine modern apartment for only 140,000 ?


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## DonKing

rabbit said:
			
		

> Prices in Carrick are not really "jacked up" - where else would you get a fine modern apartment for only 140,000 ?




You'd buy a fantastic apartment in the better areas of Budapest for that type of money.


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## rabbit

So Donking, you think all property prices in Ireland are " jacked up "?


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## mickl

well rabbit sell sell heard mnba going to move in next 3 years


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## rabbit

Its the main employer in Leitrim.  I suppose you heard the main employer in most other counties is going to move in the next 3 or 4 years as well ?


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## Culchie

Rabbit, I have friends in MBNA ... there is restructuring taking place, they don't themselves yet how things will pan out.


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## CharlieC

I too know people in MBNA, who do not live in COS

Down the country, people can travel greater distances in less time

People could live in Sligo Roscommon Longford or Cavan and still be within 30-40 mins from work


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## Healy1

I am a dub, my parents moved to Leitrim when I was 17 and I spent three years there. It was like a jail sentence. On a serious note - Leitrim has always been an unemployment black spot and I was lucky to keep a job in a meat factory before I left to go to college. MBNA has been supporting Carrick on Shannon for the last few years. The reason MBNA moved there is because one of the top guys family lived there years ago and they were thrown off their land. When he made it big he brought MBNA to Carrick and bought the house and land his family were thrown off (a tearful story!). Now MBNA has been bought by Bank of America and he is gone (or about to go) they are likely to relocate. When the happens you won't even break even. My advice is get out of it ASAP before you get really stung. Granted the rent yields are okay but you are talking small money anyway. Reinvest your money in attractive location, or an entirely different investment.


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## extopia

rabbit said:


> I guess the exceptional growth in Dublin balances out practically zero growth in places like Carrick-on-Shannon to give us our national property boom.



Well, yes, I'd say you're right there. Especially in an area where tax breaks have probably contributed to overbuilding, MBNA or not. (Now rebranded to its owners, Bank of America, by the way).

You shouldn't factor in the cost of furniture, by the way, unless you're selling it fully furnished, in which case you shouldn't expect to recoup anything like what you paid for the furniture.


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