# Roscommon Woman + Incest/Neglect Case



## Smashbox (22 Jan 2009)

I live in County Roscommon, and its come to light that a woman was let abuse her children in pretty awful ways.

There was incest, abuse, beatings, lack of food, clothing and sanitary conditions, and the kids weren't even toilet trained.

How could people not know this was going on? I mean, the mother was a lone parent from what I can grasp. But surely friends, family and neighbours would have to have their suspicions.

It had been going on for six years. did the kids go to school? If so, surely someone would have noticed ie. a teacher.

If they didn't, then surely someone again should have noticed!

They say she suffered various conditions, such as asthma, depression and epilepsy. This is no excuse! I have two out of three of those conditions and wouldnt dream of doing anything of this sort.

She just got sentanced to 7 years, the maximum term for a WOMAN in an incest case. This is crazy stuff!

Read more here : http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0122/roscommon.html


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## Betsy Og (22 Jan 2009)

it was just sickening. No effort and, worst still, acts of depravity.

Just shows you the spectrum, some people stressing about the "rights and wrongs" of having kids, others have 6 and do that to them.

its hard to imagine it, a bit like people who kill babies by multiple injuries (at least 1 case in the UK lately, and wasnt there one in Dublin a year or 2 ago). 

too depressing to dwell on.


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## Pique318 (22 Jan 2009)

7 Years !!?? Whereas a man can get Life imprisonment....gender equality at work there huh ?

That case is sickening and the Injunction that was obtained to prevent the HSE placing the children into care (because 'support' was what they needed, not intervention ) with the help of a catholic organisation (!) was ridiculous. 

The Judge who granted the Injunction should have that decision re-examined.


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## Birroc (22 Jan 2009)

Sickening story alright. Makes me angry.

From Indo, the kids were going to school and getting bullied for being smelly and dirty.


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## Smashbox (22 Jan 2009)

How could the teachers not sense that something was happening? If they were at school, as Birroc stated, its no wonder they were singled out. Headlice, smelly, dirty and not toilet trained? I just don't know how this could have happened.

And the law! 7 years is crazy. A man would indeed have got life. These laws from far back need to be looked at and changed right away.


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## Ciaraella (22 Jan 2009)

Pique318 said:


> 7 Years !!?? Whereas a man can get Life imprisonment....gender equality at work there huh ?


 
In fairness the problem here is outdated legislation , not a gender issue, after all in the context of the time (1908 I heard on the radio) when the law was written gender equality didn't really exist. The blame here, in terms of the possible sentence, rests with whoever (not sure which department exactly) is responsible for amending outdated legislation.
And like everyone else it makes me sick to my stomach to think that people like this woman exist.


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## BoscoTalking (22 Jan 2009)

Smashbox said:


> How could the teachers not sense that something was happening? If they were at school, as Birroc stated, its no wonder they were singled out. Headlice, smelly, dirty and not toilet trained? I just don't know how this could have happened.


who said the teachers, other people and HSE social workers did not know that there was wilful neglect here? - a social worker called twice a week but the children said nothing and so were ok? - thats just not good enough. 
What sort of support was given? it shows unfortunately that Irish government services cannot or will not protect innocent children, not in Roscommon, not in Wexford and on the streets of cities and towns where mothers shoot up next to their childrens buggies in broad daylight. The "thats not my job" response is simply not good enough. Maybe the US answer to adopting children of those type of parents (where there are no suitable or willing family members) is a bit too far but it certainly would have been a better life that what they have now.


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## Simeon (22 Jan 2009)

Was the social worker blind? Did he/she have a sense of smell? Or did the 'right-wing catholic group' intimidate him/her? Were the teachers blind? Did they not have olfactory facilities ie NOSTRILS? Most publicans know the history of their heavy drinkers .......... enough said! Lots of people have got to be culpable here. It is the most distressing story of this type that I have heard. Reporting this to the relevant authority is not busybody stuff ........ it is a human requirement. Not doing so makes one complicit.


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## Padraigb (22 Jan 2009)

I can understand people being upset by and angry about these events.

But before passing judgement on what you see as the failures of others, you should ask yourself if you actually know that every child in your locality or sphere of acquaintance is safe. Is that dirty smelly child just a typical member of a dirty smelly family, or is he an abused child?


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## Smashbox (22 Jan 2009)

I think you would look into it further if you knew of someone, myself certainly. I would rather have a quiet word in someones ear to get things moving than to not say anything.

Reporting a parent whom you believe to be abusing their child/children, and it turns out isn't, is still an obligation.

Not reporting a parent because you don't want to have the bother, is inexcusable.

This wasn't just a smelly child. They lived in a rat infested house. Would have obviously shown signs of violence, as the mother beat them. They were underfed so obviously undernourished. They weren't toilet trained.

This isn't just the run of a mill household where a parent doesnt wash their child every day. These signs would have been there for a long time. And surely someone would have known that she left these children alone to go drinking at night.


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## BoscoTalking (22 Jan 2009)

Padraigb said:


> I can understand people being upset by and angry about these events.
> 
> But before passing judgement on what you see as the failures of others, you should ask yourself if you actually know that every child in your locality or sphere of acquaintance is safe. Is that dirty smelly child just a typical member of a dirty smelly family, or is he an abused child?


Sure but your point is an asside. But by being dirty and smelly he is unwashed and in my view a level of  neglect is present. Soap and water and  a bit of care is cheap. 
we pay professionally trained people to see behind these doors. They either do see it and do nothing or can't, either way these professionals are not good enough IMO. 

Also who was the "right wing catholic group" who paid her legal fees and why is it a secret?


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## Smashbox (22 Jan 2009)

Just because a child says they're ok, that doesnt mean that he/she is!

I can't believe it was going on for so long too... what'll happen to those kids now?


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## Ciaraella (22 Jan 2009)

It seems there's alot more to come out about this, on the radio they made constant mention of the legal proceedings which are still ongoing in relation to the case so perhaps many people in the community did notice and speak up at the time.


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## BoscoTalking (22 Jan 2009)

Ciaraella said:


> It seems there's alot more to come out about this, on the radio they made constant mention of the legal proceedings which are still ongoing in relation to the case so *perhaps many people in the community did notice and speak up at the time.*


 i honestly hope that is the case


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## Smashbox (22 Jan 2009)

I wonder if we'll ever find out the area she came from? I'd love to know where her neighbours/family/friends were at the time. How can you just forget a family of six kids?


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## Smashbox (22 Jan 2009)

Picture of the mother plus a bit more info on the case : http://www.independent.ie/national-news/mother-from-hell-is-guilty-of-incest-1609693.html?start=1


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## Henny Penny (22 Jan 2009)

This case made me sick to my stomach ... at the failure of our society to put children at the centre of our constitution. 

I am angry that this was allowed to happen. I am angry that in this day and age that there are children that can fall through the cracks. 

I am angry that there are sections of our society that are marginalised to such an extent that nobody wants to know ... the further from centre they go, the less people want to know. 

I think we need to ask ourselves how can we ensure this never happens again ... when are we as a society going to realise that it's not just the parents of children that have a responsibilty ... it's the whole community that owe it to them to put the childrens rights first.


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## Simeon (22 Jan 2009)

Padraigb said:


> I can understand people being upset by and angry about these events.
> 
> But before passing judgement on what you see as the failures of others, you should ask yourself if you actually know that every child in your locality or sphere of acquaintance is safe. Is that dirty smelly child just a typical member of a dirty smelly family, or is he an abused child?


The very fact that the child is dirty/smelly is neglect in itself. Neglect is abuse. Bad things happen when good people stay silent.


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## Brianne (23 Jan 2009)

pennypitstop said:


> Sure but your point is an asside. But by being dirty and smelly he is unwashed and in my view a level of  neglect is present. Soap and water and  a bit of care is cheap.
> we pay professionally trained people to see behind these doors. They either do see it and do nothing or can't, either way these professionals are not good enough IMO.
> 
> Also who was the "right wing catholic group" who paid her legal fees and why is it a secret?



Couldn't agree more with you. Had a situation several years ago when in desperation I rang our local health board and demanded to speak to the Medical Officer to discuss the constant recurring head lice situation in the local school. Eventually I spoke to a public health nurse as the doctor refused to take my call. On pointing out to her my concerns re the infestation , I got , in my opinion , the politically correct response that some children had different situations that should be treated with caution. I was demanding that the public health team visit the school in question as in my opinion , children with head lice whose parents fail to treat them , are not only a source of infestation to others but possibly should themselves be viewed as children who are being neglected and this sign of neglect can be the first indication of more serious issues. 

Talk about having to listen to unadulterated psychobabble. I then said that I personally had vast experience in the area and if the public health team weren't interested in listening to me  , maybe they would be interested in hearing my concerns on Joe Duffy. 

End of story: Inspection of school and serious campaign mounted. 

Forget a lot of the political correctness. If a parent whether single or married, black or white, citizen or immigrant , in this day and age , doesn't wash their child and have clean clothes for school , there is neglect. There is no excuse for this and I have seen too much so called family support for useless morons who in an ideal world would never have a pet not to mind a child.
 The family whilst wonderful when it works is the most dangerous place on earth for so many of our children and frankly it is very hard to imagine how total separation from their natural families for so many brutalised children would not be a better option. And you can be sure of this , the system of social care that delayed so much with these poor children will insist that they keep contact with this excuse of a mother.


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## Smashbox (23 Jan 2009)

Hear hear Brianne


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## irishlinks (23 Jan 2009)

She and her husband were originally charged over 2 years ago. Wonder if he is going to be in court soon too? They were on €100 bail for 2 years !!!!


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## Padraigb (23 Jan 2009)

irishlinks said:


> She and her husband were originally charged over 2 years ago. Wonder if he is going to be in court soon too? They were on €100 bail for 2 years !!!!



Fifteen months ago. It can take a very long time to bring a prosecution to completion (a matter that bothers me, but is not the issue here).

It looks as if no harm resulted from the remand. The woman was separated from the children; clearly she turned up in court when required to. I would interpret the fact that the husband was not prosecuted further was that investigations did not produce any evidence against him (although it is possible that his case is not over yet).


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## Smashbox (23 Jan 2009)

Oh I didn't know there was a husband involved.. initial reports didn't mention one so I assumed he was absent.

She pleaded guilty.. and he not guilty.. how could he not be responsible in some ways for the neglect if he was around too?


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## Lollix (23 Jan 2009)

Its a troubling case, on many levels.

Why have the media steered away from the "right wing catholic organisation" that took the court case originally? Why wasn't a spokesperson from that group interviewed and asked what the hell they were playing at?

I can understand (but not condone) the fact that teachers stood back from making an intervention. Don't forget that the school manager would have been the local parish priest, and the perception that the catholic establishment was against interference may have scared off the teachers.

What about the local publican though? If the woman was in the pub every night, was nobody wondering who was taking care of her children?

Its all very well to blame the social workers, but there are questions to be asked of a lot of other people as well.

Its very sad, that something like this can still happen and that people are unwilling or afraid to intervene.


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## june (24 Jan 2009)

If the social workers were calling twice a week then this was clearly known by the locals. 
They must surely have been liasing with the school.... If a principal suspects abuse then they report it to the social workers who were already involved since the birth of the first child...

If the locals knew that social workers were involved then exactly what else were they supposed to do? Who do you call next? 
Apart from the excellent suggestion by brianne to go to Joe Duffy.

the whole thing is awful and it is by no means confined to a single case in rural roscommon


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## Smashbox (24 Jan 2009)

I guess the publican might have thought that the husband was at home? Its hard to know. Surely others could have seen this. Do the HSE employ blind people to do this job?


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## Homer (24 Jan 2009)

The whole situation is just sickening.  It makes you despair of human nature and wonder what it is that makes some people behave in a way that is so far away from what would be considered right.

I wish I had an answer, but I don't.

Homer


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## irishlinks (24 Jan 2009)

If publicans in Ireland reported every mother in the pub getting drunk late at night - they would be ringing social services all the time. You can't blame the publican. 

If we all reported every mother out drinking regularly - or every dirty looking child , or children we thought were  living in bad conditions - we would have social services calling to plenty of houses and caravans all over the country. MAybe we should?

Lots of people in this country - have an attitude of "let them get on with it" and turning a blind eye. WHich isn't helped by the examples given by politicians taking bribes or forgetting where certain lodgements of money came from - or directors of banks getting dodgy loans. 
The same attitudes contribute to many other problems in this country like underage drinking, drug dealing, provisional licence holders driving on their own , benefit fraud, - none as bad as what happened to these kids - but maybe we all see these things going on and do nothing. 
I can remember a thread here last year about kids getting verbally abused by a parent in a shop - many many people replied that it was OK and that reporting it to anyone was not the right way to react. 
Maybe we all (I include myself) need to stop minding our own business and start minding other peoples?


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## Black Sheep (25 Jan 2009)

Where is the father or fathers of these children, surely he holds equal responsibility but no fingers have yet been pointed.
I agree with many other posters that this level of abuse and neglect could have continued for so long and nobody shouted stop


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## Simeon (25 Jan 2009)

Publicans in general are a fairly knowledgeable bunch ........ especially when it comes to regular punters. Ireland is not Australia. Most people out the country know quite a lot, or could find out, about anyone in a ten mile radius. And I think your assumption that this kind of behaviour is endemic in this country shows your mindset. I'm talking here about 'mothers' and not the general public.


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## demoivre (26 Jan 2009)

I don't understand the sentencing in this case. Judge Reynolds said she would be dealing with the sentencing of the woman with legislation that dates back to 1908.
 She pointed out that the maximum sentence she can hand down under this legislation is a term of seven years in prison. 
 'Had this being a case of a male person being convicted - a much longer sentence would be allowed under more recently amended legislation. A man convicted of incest can be jailed up to a maximum of a life sentence,' she said. 
The combined sentences ( I think there was about six different convictions ) handed down to this women totalled about 48 years but the individual sentences are to run concurrently. Judge Reynolds clearly felt that 7 years was too light a sentence so why didn't she make the sentences (or some of them ) run consecutively to get around the dated legislation . I've never agreed with concurrent sentencing and surely if ever there was a case that merited consecutive sentencing then this is it.


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## Simeon (26 Jan 2009)

Right on!


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## Lollix (26 Jan 2009)

Was it a rural place or a town? Where in Roscommon was it? Some parts of Roscommon are quite remote, but if this happened in a town it is even more disgraceful -- you couldn't miss this if it was next door to you in an urban location, or could you?


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## Bronte (26 Jan 2009)

Brianne said:


> Forget a lot of the political correctness. If a parent whether single or married, black or white, citizen or immigrant , in this day and age , doesn't wash their child and have clean clothes for school , there is neglect. There is no excuse for this and I have seen too much so called family support for useless morons who in an ideal world would never have a pet not to mind a child.
> The family whilst wonderful when it works is the most dangerous place on earth for so many of our children and frankly it is very hard to imagine how total separation from their natural families for so many brutalised children would not be a better option. And you can be sure of this , the system of social care that delayed so much with these poor children will insist that they keep contact with this excuse of a mother.


  Whilst I agree with most of what you say, even some bad families can be better for children rather than state care.  In this particular case obviously not.  
Could someone please tell me what was the aim of the Catholic organisation's involvement and where they get funding from, I've never heard of them.  Even so I don't understand why the Health Board didn't appeal the High Court case.


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## Smashbox (26 Jan 2009)

> Judge Reynolds clearly felt that 7 years was too light a sentence so why didn't she make the sentences (or some of them ) run consecutively to get around the dated legislation


 
I agree, I didn't understand this part either. She made a point of saying that 7 years wasn't long enough... so why not give more when she could have.



> Was it a rural place or a town? Where in Roscommon was it? Some parts of Roscommon are quite remote, but if this happened in a town it is even more disgraceful -- you couldn't miss this if it was next door to you in an urban location, or could you?


 
I now believe it to be around Castlerea. I live in Roscommon, in a fairly remote part, and yet there are still lots of pubs, shops and other services around. Surely people couldn't have missed this. People around here know everyone else's business!



> Could someone please tell me what was the aim of the Catholic organisation's involvement and where they get funding from, I've never heard of them. Even so I don't understand why the Health Board didn't appeal the High Court case


 
I agree with this. I dunno how this organisation got away with it, and how come the HSE didn't follow up on this when they KNEW what was going on.


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## Sunny (26 Jan 2009)

Bronte said:


> Whilst I agree with most of what you say, even some bad families can be better for children rather than state care. In this particular case obviously not.
> Could someone please tell me what was the aim of the Catholic organisation's involvement and where they get funding from, I've never heard of them. Even so I don't understand why the Health Board didn't appeal the High Court case.


 
They did appeal it in May 2001 but it failed. The question is what did it do after that. It appears it didn't apply for a childcare order after this date until action was taken in 2004.


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## michaelm (26 Jan 2009)

The HSE were quick to look for a scapegoat and others were quick to use this case to push their own agendas, the facts of the case notwithstanding.  The State have let this family down badly.


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## Bronte (27 Jan 2009)

Sunny said:


> They did appeal it in May 2001 but it failed. The question is what did it do after that. It appears it didn't apply for a childcare order after this date until action was taken in 2004.


 Do you know the grounds of the appeal and why it failed?  Surely such a high profile case would have hit the headlines?


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## Bronte (27 Jan 2009)

Just thought of something else, presumable the children can now sue the State/HSE for not doing their job properly or sue the Catholic organisation and ultimately (I don't know) the Catholic church.  Which all neatly ties in to the current Bishop controversy when they didn't follow their own guidelines.    I do hope that the children are getting all the love and attention and psychiatric care they now need, it's distressing to hear that the kids are in 3 separate foster homes, I know 6 children is a lot but I hope they won't be turfed out as each reaches 18 (I know one child is currently 19) as the state I think is not obliged after 18, (or is it 16) to look after children.  This is very distressing that we do not seem to have moved on in relation to children in 2009.


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## Jack2008 (27 Jan 2009)

Loads of these cases are brought before the High Court every year - that is the HSE/Health Board wanting to place children in Foster Care due to neglect or ill treatment and they will never make the headlines.
The reason this one was picked up by the media is the charge of incest/sexual abuse which only came to light after the children where placed in care.
I also heard yesterday evening that there is more to come - similar charges to be brought against the father of one of the children within the next couple of weeks. This would explain the lack of attention the media have given to the fathers of these children!

I am also disgusted by this case - we as a society and the authorities have let these children down badly!


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## irishlinks (27 Jan 2009)

A lot of people are saying that the locals should have done more - but the social workers were obviously involved as far back as 2000  - probably even before that. Once people know that they are involved - what more can they do?  Everyone probably assumed that they were on top of things and it would get sorted out. Maybe in the future people will not make that assumption any more.
No one could have been expected to know about the incest. 
I am sure there are loads of kids all over Ireland who are left at home  or left wandering the streets while the parents go to the pub.  The trouble is - many people seem to think that is not a problem.


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## truthseeker (27 Jan 2009)

irishlinks said:


> I am sure there are loads of kids all over Ireland who are left at home or left wandering the streets while the parents go to the pub. The trouble is - many people seem to think that is not a problem.


 
Even when people see a problem and do report it, all too often nothing changes. 
I personally know a couple who are alcoholic and they bring their children to the pub with them - since they were babies. I have personally witnessed both of the adults staggering up the road drunk with the kids in tow, the kids too young and too tired for a mile walk home from the pub - in the dark in winter months. They have been reported on more than one occasion - mostly by other pub goers. Nothing changes, any night of the week you can see this sad family staggering up the road home from the pub.


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## Jack2008 (27 Jan 2009)

Truthseeker,

Is it not illegal to have children in a pub after seven in the evening? (not sure) 
Surely the publican is at fault her? Why don't you refuse to drink there?
I am not anti kids (I am a parent myself) but when I go for a drink at the weekend I have no desire to be surrounded by other peoples kids!
It might stop the publican serving them!


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## BoscoTalking (27 Jan 2009)

i have to say i would get a camcorder and record the falling out of pub and up the road. then i would deliver to the gardai and social services, some might say it will cause drinking to happen in the home but it might just lead to some action being taken to care for the children. I couldn't do nothing if that was happening day in day out.


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