# Rights of a Manager to see an employees HR file



## mprsv1000 (7 Jul 2011)

Hi there

I have an issue with an employee, they have had disciplinary proceedings brought against them due to inappropriate working practices after a complaint was upheld by a service user, they then went out on work related stress, as they do not want to be supervised on return, they have put in a grievance about myself (Manager)and  their supervisor, stating that before our time here there were never any issues with their work, this is untrue as the organization have frequently had issues with this particular individual and is well known to HR. In my time dealing with this individual I have documented evidence of continuous poor working practices.( a very tricky individual)

My question is can I state this in dealing with their grievance as it is particular personal, vexatious and false?


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## Complainer (9 Jul 2011)

State this to who?

I'm not sure that you'll get useful advice here on a query of this nature. You might need to get legal advice through your HR dept.


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## Mommah (9 Jul 2011)

Your post is unclear.

The typical idealised process is:
On recruitment/promotion the supervisor outlines clear expectations regarding performance for all employees.

Supervisor undertakes regular performance reviews with all employees.
As issues arise they are brought to the attention of the employee by the supervisor and explicit targets outlined.
This might represent a "counselling period" which should be documented.

The employee should be advised that continued failure to meet these targets could lead to a disciplinary procedure.

This would escalate from verbal warning- continued underperformance in the same arena- written warning- final written warning- dismissal.

For gross misconduct you can escalate to dismissal.

If this process is not clearly in place for all employees, you might be vunerable to accusations of "picking on" this particular employee.

All the fact that they have complained about 2 of you weakens their position. It is fairly typical for an employee subjected to tight performance management to cry "bullying". But if your processes are tight, consistent and applied across your workforce you will have more protection.


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## Brendan Burgess (9 Jul 2011)

Complainer said:


> I'm not sure that you'll get useful advice here on a query of this nature. You might need to get legal advice through your HR dept.



Agreed.

You do not need to state this at all. HR should be refuting this, not you. 

It would be normal in a situation like this for HR and the line manager to sit down and respond to the complaint. I am not sure that it makes much difference that the complainant is criticising you. It sounds as if you are being accused of doing your job. 

Brendan


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## mprsv1000 (10 Jul 2011)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Agreed.
> 
> You do not need to state this at all. HR should be refuting this, not you.
> 
> ...


 

O.K employee has been issued with a formal warning (complaint by a service user upheld) has a track record of this before my time as her manager, once they went out with work related stress HR seem to back off........ that's the problem


anyway was in touch with NERA and no leagal reason HR cannot let me see their HR file as I an employed by them and in a position of senior management

BUT

Data protection states  I cannot see anything on their file unless it relates to me, if that's the case then what's the point of a HR file as on this basis no one can look at their file or what's on it unless they are mentioned on it .... not even the HR manager

have had to put in concern to HIQA as employemnt law is not up to the task of dealing with employees not fit for purpose to look after vulnerable people.......... This duty of care must come above all else.


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## mprsv1000 (10 Jul 2011)

Mommah said:


> Your post is unclear.
> 
> The typical idealised process is:
> On recruitment/promotion the supervisor outlines clear expectations regarding performance for all employees.
> ...


 

we seem to have poor HR practices hence moving things on to HIQA, no organisation should take a duty of care lightly


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## Complainer (10 Jul 2011)

mprsv1000 said:


> Data protection states  I cannot see anything on their file unless it relates to me



That's not true. You have an automatic entitlement to see the file if the data relates to you, but that doesn't mean that no-one else can see the file. It just means that no-one else has an automatic entitlement to see the file.

It sounds like line managers are not being allowed or supported to line manage. You should get clarification as to whether line management is part of your role or not. If you are the manager, then you need access to the file. If not, then the whole thing is HR's problem.


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## 333hannahh (11 Jul 2011)

If you have been documenting evidence of the individuals poor working practices then you should have been documenting evidence of where you pointed this out to the individual and tried to get them to improve their work.  I'd be very reluctant to use the information you've been documenting if you haven't been giving the individual a chance to rectify the situation.  I know the individual has been posing problems for a while but I think the onus is on management to prove they have given the staff member every opportunity to improve.  If you've only been recording when her work is poor and not highlighting this to her, then I don't think bringing it up will help your case.  Sorry.


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## mprsv1000 (12 Jul 2011)

Complainer said:


> That's not true. You have an automatic entitlement to see the file if the data relates to you, but that doesn't mean that no-one else can see the file. It just means that no-one else has an automatic entitlement to see the file.
> 
> It sounds like line managers are not being allowed or supported to line manage. You should get clarification as to whether line management is part of your role or not. If you are the manager, then you need access to the file. If not, then the whole thing is HR's problem.


 

A good point meeting with head of HR tomorrow  so I can bring this up
cheers


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## mprsv1000 (12 Jul 2011)

333hannahh said:


> If you have been documenting evidence of the individuals poor working practices then you should have been documenting evidence of where you pointed this out to the individual and tried to get them to improve their work. I'd be very reluctant to use the information you've been documenting if you haven't been giving the individual a chance to rectify the situation. I know the individual has been posing problems for a while but I think the onus is on management to prove they have given the staff member every opportunity to improve. If you've only been recording when her work is poor and not highlighting this to her, then I don't think bringing it up will help your case. Sorry.


 

Yes it has been addressed with the person on a number of occasions, letters of concern etc, offered training (dropped out even thought it cost 1500 euro) supervisions where we've tried to focus on positives by way of support as well as negitive aspects and suggestions on ways to improve, mentoring etc. I'm at a loss as to what more can be done, a child made a complaint ( serious enough) was uheld and they go off on stress and then claim they are being bullied, terminology used in complaint leveled at previous Manager and supervisor and the ones before them all on HR file (or should be as all information is know at t the top Management level) Like I said this is not a new problem but I can't see why it should continue any longer when vulnerable service users are involved.


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## onq (12 Jul 2011)

mprsv1000 said:


> I'm at a loss as to what more can be done, a child made a complaint ( serious enough) was uheld...



I presume you mean "upheld".
If there is a risk that person is involved in abuse of children, however  slight, that puts a whole different complexion on the matter.

Unless I'm reading  far more into your comment than you intended, if a child  made a complaint then your office may have a duty to  report the matter to the Gardaí and not be treating this as an internal  matter.
Failing to involve the proper authorities could expose  you to the kind of opprobrium the catholic church got for its  "in-house" handling of child sexual abuse cases.
HIQA may be a reasonable next stage of referral where an allegation has been made but no case is yet proven, especially given the dismal performance of the Gardaí in the cases referred to them by the South-Eastern Health Board [Ferns, etc].

[Unless of course the complaint was made to the Gardaí or HIQA before, in which case disregard these comments].

As the employer, you should examine any computer he uses or to which he has access and the backups for  inappropriate content and forward any evidence found to HIQA/the Gardaí.
 If found this could amount to gross misbehaviour and an immediate  dismissal, but as others have warned, tread lightly and follow procedure  as you appear to have done.

ONQ.


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## Sunny (12 Jul 2011)

onq said:


> I presume you mean "upheld".
> If there is a risk that person is involved in abuse of children, however slight, that puts a whole different complexion on the matter.
> 
> Unless I'm reading far more into your comment than you intended, if a child made a complaint then your office may have a duty to report the matter to the Gardaí and not be treating this as an internal matter.
> ...


 
He said a child made a complaint. He didn't say anything about abuse or potential abuse.


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