# Face Mask or Visor or Both.



## Bronco Lane (8 Jul 2020)

Just looking at venturing out to a restaurant shortly.

Some restaurant staff are wearing Face Masks, some are wearing Visors, some neither.

My question. Would a Visor not direct a spray downward on to a carried glass, plate of food, pint etc.

Are Face Masks preferable to a Visor?


----------



## Purple (8 Jul 2020)

There's no perfect solution. All people can do is reduce risk. Hand cleaning will probably be a bigger factor in food and drink provision.


----------



## mct1 (9 Jul 2020)

A visor is intended to protect the wearer, a face mask to protect others. If they were wearing a visor but no mask while leaning over to serve me I would not be happy.


----------



## SlurrySlump (23 Jul 2020)

Face visors may protect wearer but not other people against Covid-19
					

Public health experts not convinced of plastic shields’ benefits for general users




					www.theguardian.com
				




I would much prefer if I was in a restaurant/hairdresser and a mask+ visor was worn by the server. I would not feel comfortable with just a visor.


----------



## Mouldy (23 Jul 2020)

I had dinner in a restaurant at the weekend, the staff were wearing visors only. I didn't see anything that would put me off going back. The waiter would practically have to be eating your food to be so close that a visor wouldn't be enough. Also I'd prefer wait staff not to wear masks as they would likely be touching them the whole time.


----------



## Leo (23 Jul 2020)

Mouldy said:


> The waiter would practically have to be eating your food to be so close that a visor wouldn't be enough.



You haven't seen the mapping that was done on an early case of a single diner in a restaurant affecting multiple other people.


----------



## Mouldy (23 Jul 2020)

Leo said:


> You haven't seen the mapping that was done on an early case of a single diner in a restaurant affecting multiple other people.



Thats a really good article, thanks for sharing.


----------



## Leo (23 Jul 2020)

Mouldy said:


> Thats a really good article, thanks for sharing.



There was another very similar one around the time showing the spread in an open plan office building. Can't find that right now, but it did point to airflow through indoor spaces as being problematic.


----------



## valery (23 Jul 2020)

Face shields are NOT protective against Covid-19, health officials say
					

An outbreak of 'several' coronavirus cases at a hotel in Switzerland revealed those who only worse plastic visors were infected. But people who wore a mask did not catch the coronavirus.




					www.dailymail.co.uk
				




the above article references an outbreak at a Swiss hotel.  Staff wearing a shield contacted the virus, mask wearers did not.


----------



## Odea (25 Jul 2020)

Mouldy said:


> I had dinner in a restaurant at the weekend, the staff were wearing visors only. I didn't see anything that would put me off going back


If a person is wearing a mask and sneezes.....they can still sneeze in to their arm...... a double catch.  If a person is wearing a visor they cannot do this. In fact, all the droplets are directed downwards and to the sides.

On the Nationwide programme on Friday it showed a Wicklow outlet with a staff member wearing a visor that was sticking outwards at an angle. Gaps at the sides. Nothing to catch the sneeze. It may have protected the wearer but not anyone else.


----------



## joe sod (25 Jul 2020)

mct1 said:


> A visor is intended to protect the wearer, a face mask to protect others. If they were wearing a visor but no mask while leaning over to serve me I would not be happy.


Have some consideration for the worker wearing this stuff, a visor is easier to wear as the airflow into the lungs is not resticted but it also stops a cough or a sneeze being projected out. Remember if you go into a supermarket you only have to wear a mask for a short period and you are not doing anything too strenuous, imagine wearing one all day and doing physically demanding job. I know doctors and nurses wear this but they are in a high risk environment . Alot of people who comment never give any consideration to the people that have to work in this, remember this is for risk reduction not elimination.


----------



## Odea (25 Jul 2020)

joe sod said:


> Have some consideration for the worker wearing this stuff, a visor is easier to wear as the airflow into the lungs is not resticted but it also stops a cough or a sneeze being projected out


The visor protects the wearer. The cough or sneeze will be projected downwards or to the sides. You cannot sneeze in to your arm wearing a visor. This is not about providing comfort it's about protecting people.


----------



## Odea (28 Jul 2020)

I visited two men's barbers in the Newtown Park Avenue area of Blackrock today and both were wearing visors. I am not sure that hairdressers should be wearing these. The customer is sitting in a chair beneath the person who is standing and wearing the visor.

Any rules on what hairdressers are supposed to be wearing....mask or visor or both?


----------



## odyssey06 (28 Jul 2020)

Odea said:


> I visited two men's barbers in the Newtown Park Avenue area of Blackrock today and both were wearing visors. I am not sure that hairdressers should be wearing these. The customer is sitting in a chair beneath the person who is standing and wearing the visor.
> Any rules on what hairdressers are supposed to be wearing....mask or visor or both?



I don't know if the Irish guidelines just aren't specific, aren't easy to find or are just 'suggestions'.

In the UK the guidelines specifically stated:
_Hairdressers must also wear a protective visor that extends below their chin, but do not need to wear an additional face mask. _


----------



## IsleOfMan (2 Aug 2020)

Ministers warn hairdressers may pass on Covid due to inadequate visors
					

Scientists have raised concerns that the plastic face visors worn by barbers and hairdressers might not be providing suitable protection for against coronavirus for the staff or clients.




					www.dailymail.co.uk
				




I didn't feel comfortable when I called to my local hairdressers to see that they were wearing visors and no mask. I left and went elsewhere.


----------



## Mackem (2 Aug 2020)

“Health officials in the canton of Graubunden (Switzerland) studying a recent outbreak among staff at a hotel found a worrying trend - all of those who were infected wore plastic face shields, while those who avoided infection wore face masks. Several employees of the hotel tested positive along with a guest. We know that the guest was served by employees with face visors”.

I think the above report tells it’s own story.


----------



## Inboard (2 Aug 2020)

If you are a frontliner and you have a job that close contact to another person is inevitable then you should wear a face shield or visor. If not then a face mask will do.


----------



## Grizzly (3 Aug 2020)

Inboard said:


> If you are a frontliner and you have a job that close contact to another person is inevitable then you should wear a face shield or visor. If not then a face mask will do.


I disagree. You should wear a mask in preference to a face visor.


----------



## Leo (4 Aug 2020)

Inboard said:


> If you are a frontliner and you have a job that close contact to another person is inevitable then you should wear a face shield or visor. If not then a face mask will do.



If contact is inevitable ideally you'd be wearing both.


----------



## odyssey06 (6 Aug 2020)

WillieBradny said:


> A visor is more powerful with a mask. Visors are designed to protect the person who wears it, a mask does it only if the people around are wearing masks too.



As noted earlier in thread, this is not borne out by events:


----------



## Leo (6 Aug 2020)

WillieBradny said:


> a mask does it only if the people around are wearing masks too.



Well, wearing a mask will do both. In an environment where you have two people, one infected the other not, either one wearing a mask will reduce the risk of the non-infected person contracting the virus. However, if both are wearing masks, the odds of the non-infected person contracting the virus is lower again.

The main purpose of visors is to protect from particles entering the eyes.


----------



## SlurrySlump (7 Aug 2020)

Leo said:


> The main purpose of visors is to protect from particles entering the eyes.



Just listening to callers in to 98 FM.  They are saying that visors are great because they are not stuffy and they can feel the air coming in from the sides!!  Maybe a dose of Covid air?

Also do they not understand that if air comes in then air can go out. Your cough or sneeze blasts out through the sides and below.

I walked out of a couple of hairdressers that were wearing visors and not facemasks. I was expected to sit in a seat while they stood above me with all their breath being directed down on top of me. I won't be supporting restaurants, pubs, delicatessen, hairdresser etc that wear visors and not supported by a facemask.


----------



## Leo (7 Aug 2020)

SlurrySlump said:


> Also do they not understand that if air comes in then air can go out. Your cough or sneeze blasts out through the sides and below.



Sometimes I feel people just don't want to know! Too inconvenient.


----------



## odyssey06 (7 Aug 2020)

Sadly it will take an infection in a hairdressers etc here where visors were used before the authorities update their advice.


----------



## joer (7 Aug 2020)

At least if everyone wore either one or the other it would be a good start .  When everyone is wearing them then start talking about the technicalities of wearing them , we have get people wearing them .


----------



## Purple (7 Aug 2020)

Leo said:


> The main purpose of visors is to protect from particles entering the eyes.


So unless you are in regular contact with Daffy Duck then a mask is a better option.


----------



## Leo (7 Aug 2020)

Purple said:


> So unless you are in regular contact with Daffy Duck then a mask is a better option.



Exthhhhactly!


----------



## PaddyBloggit (7 Aug 2020)

SlurrySlump said:


> I walked out of a couple of hairdressers that were wearing visors and not facemasks. I was expected to sit in a seat while they stood above me with all their breath being directed down on top of me. I won't be supporting restaurants, pubs, delicatessen, hairdresser etc that wear visors and not supported by a facemask.



https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland...-for-hairdressers-scientists-say-1013494.html


----------



## almostthere (23 Sep 2020)

Interesting article on Face Visors here.  Basically saying what most of us thought all along.









						Plastic face shields DON'T work
					

Lead researcher Lakoto Tsubokura, from the Riken Centre in Japan, said he would not recommend wearing face shields in the place of face masks. His simulations revealed they offer limited protection.




					www.dailymail.co.uk


----------



## Purple (24 Sep 2020)

This is a bit like the Climate Change debate; some people just take a position and won't shift from it no matter the weight of evidence pushing against them.


----------



## joer (24 Sep 2020)

Some people just insist on trying to find a problem with everything. It seems to be in their nature, for some reason.


----------



## Purple (24 Sep 2020)

joer said:


> Some people just insist on trying to find a problem with everything. It seems to be in their nature, for some reason.


I agree, but I'm not one of them (he hastens to add in an attempt to stave off the obvious repatree).


----------



## joer (24 Sep 2020)

I know that everyone is entitled to their opinion but if something was proven to be 100 per cent right there will be people queuing up to find a fault with it ( not you ) of course...


----------



## Pmc365 (24 Sep 2020)

Ideally a mask ( FFP 2 if available)and visor ( to protect the eyes). A visor alone is  less effective than a mask.


----------



## bradyassoc (24 Sep 2020)

Purple said:


> This is a bit like the Climate Change debate; some people just take a position and won't shift from it no matter the weight of evidence pushing against them.



In fairness, the "science" behind face masks has only changed within the last 6 months. Before that there was 40 years of empirical evidence right up to May 2020 that did not advocate the use of face masks only to be overturned in June 2020 based on modelling and associations. Only last month, the Chairman of Oxford University's centre for *evidence based medicine* told the Oireachtas Committee on Covid that he did not think masks worked. I'm not trying to start a debate around the effectiveness of face masks (enough of that on twitter) but comparisons with climate change deniers doesn't seem to be appropriate when even the experts themselves can't agree.


----------



## Purple (25 Sep 2020)

bradyassoc said:


> In fairness, the "science" behind face masks has only changed within the last 6 months. Before that there was 40 years of empirical evidence right up to May 2020 that did not advocate the use of face masks only to be overturned in June 2020 based on modelling and associations.


Can you post a link please?
People in the Far East have been wearing masks during flu season for decades. Doctors wear them ,nurses wear them, dentists wear them. I've never seen a video of someone helping people in a Ebola outbreak wearing a visor rather than a mask.


----------



## joer (25 Sep 2020)

Whether it be mask or visor some people just will not bother to wear either.


----------



## Leo (25 Sep 2020)

You can read what Prof. Heneghan actually said here.


----------



## bradyassoc (25 Sep 2020)

Purple said:


> Can you post a link please?
> People in the Far East have been wearing masks during flu season for decades. Doctors wear them ,nurses wear them, dentists wear them. I've never seen a video of someone helping people in a Ebola outbreak wearing a visor rather than a mask.





Purple said:


> Can you post a link please?
> People in the Far East have been wearing masks during flu season for decades. Doctors wear them ,nurses wear them, dentists wear them. I've never seen a video of someone helping people in a Ebola outbreak wearing a visor rather than a mask.



There are many links which I don't have to hand, I'll try and post some later but a search of Prof Carl Heneghan should pull up the clips of his evidence to the Oireachtas committee.
The circumstances you describe above all relate to medical professionals in some type of clinical environment wearing regulated face masks. Most people are not wearing the correct face covering which is usually a type of polyester or cotton face covering which they keep in their pocket along with phone, keys wallet. It also does not take into account human factors as compliance, talking, coughing.


----------



## Purple (25 Sep 2020)

bradyassoc said:


> The circumstances you describe above all relate to medical professionals in some type of clinical environment wearing regulated face masks. Most people are not wearing the correct face covering which is usually a type of polyester or cotton face covering which they keep in their pocket along with phone, keys wallet. It also does not take into account human factors as compliance, talking, coughing.


So an incorrectly worm unsuitable mask is less effective than a correctly worn suitable mask. Yes, I think most people agree with that.
My point is that a correctly worn correct mask is better than any visor and the evidence supports that position.


----------



## Leo (25 Sep 2020)

bradyassoc said:


> There are many links which I don't have to hand, I'll try and post some later but a search of Prof Carl Heneghan should pull up the clips of his evidence to the Oireachtas committee.



I've posted a link to the full transcription of that session above, you can quote the pertinent sections.

Prof. Staines challenged Prof. Heneghan's authority to speak on the subject give his lack of experience...


> One of Professor Heneghan’s colleagues, Professor Trisha Greenhalgh, has conducted a systematic review of the evidence for masks. Unlike Professor Heneghan, I make my living analysing and interpreting observational data. I am extremely familiar with what one can and cannot usefully do with it in public health. I am moderately convinced by the evidence.
> 
> The evidence that masks protect a person from infection, particularly this type of mask or the cloth masks some members are wearing, is very low but the evidence that they reduce spread from an infected person is much better.



Prof. Kearney added:


> I was a mask-sceptic at the outset of this based on the evidence that I was familiar with. However, like Professor Staines, I have looked at where they have been used at a population level. I have been convinced that it is part of the suites of things we need to do to address the virus.


----------



## bradyassoc (25 Sep 2020)

I'm not going to comment on professor Carl Henegan's (general practitioner physician, director of the University of Oxford's Centre for Evidence-Based Medicine) lack of experience, I'll leave that to DCU's Prof. Staines, but I don't accept the comparison to climate change deniers nor the superior attitude from those who rush to show their compliance by attacking those who stop to question the reality around them vs the "expert advice" from experts who themselves generally can't agree, and whose pronouncements are skewed by the fact that their entire goal is to get the count to zero.


----------



## Purple (25 Sep 2020)

bradyassoc said:


> I'm not going to comment on professor Carl Henegan's (general practitioner physician, director of the University of Oxford's Centre for Evidence-Based Medicine) lack of experience, I'll leave that to DCU's Prof. Staines, but I don't accept the comparison to climate change deniers nor the superior attitude from those who rush to show their compliance by attacking those who stop to question the reality around them vs the "expert advice" from experts who themselves generally can't agree, and whose pronouncements are skewed by the fact that their entire goal is to get the count to zero.


All any of us can do is go with the advice given my the Irish Government, the EU, the UN and the US CDC. Given that wearing a mask does no harm (as long as you keep it clean) and the weight of evidence suggests that it is more effective than a visor then it seems prudent to wear a mask rather than a visor.


----------



## Leo (25 Sep 2020)

bradyassoc said:


> but I don't accept the comparison to climate change deniers nor the superior attitude from those who rush to show their compliance by attacking those who stop to question the reality around them vs the "expert advice" from experts who themselves generally can't agree, and whose pronouncements are skewed by the fact that their entire goal is to get the count to zero.



No doubt there are attitudes on both sides of this argument, but solely in the context of contributions since you first posted here, others have just asked you to provide evidence on which your assertion is based. I hope you're not interpreting that as 'attitude'. 

Regarding the 'experts who themselves generally can't agree', within climate science, there are some authorities who deny we are experiencing change, but the vast majority who claim the evidence is irrefutable. That's just how understanding evolves over time. There was a time when the ideas of magnetic fields or electron flow were considered ludicrous, but evidence has developed and they are now broadly accepted as reality. At the same time, there are still many people who believe the earth is less than 10,000 years old. 

The same applies to mask wearing, at the moment the majority of scientists agree that wearing masks does offer a degree of protection. Prof. Heneghan's point that some masks are less effective than others, and that masks aren't as effective when they're not worn, or worn incorrectly doesn't challenge the fundamental premise. He acknowledged that the laboratory based evidence shows mask are effective, but points out that 'there is no real-world evidence'. To obtain real-world evidence would of course require the running of trials with large groups in a controlled environment. There is a moral hazzard in running such a trial that makes it problematic, how do you organise sufficiently large groups, one wearing masks however well, and the other not wearing masks at all, and ask them to go about their daily lives in two isolated environments, with no cross-over between groups and with the same starting levels of incidence of COVID-19?


----------

