# House price €275, offer €255



## Neil_Ireland (15 Apr 2008)

Hi all,

I found a house I like, it's on the market for €275k with two different auctioneers, I'm thinking of offering €255k.
The estate agent said the current owners want a quick sale, they even have a lot of their stuff boxed up ready to go.

Is this too little to offer?

Thanks,
Neil.


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## television (15 Apr 2008)

offer 245 and say its final


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## slinky (15 Apr 2008)

Agreed. Boxed up means major debt!


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## moneygrower (15 Apr 2008)

only the sellers can tell you that, it's less than 10% below the asking, seems okay to me.


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## Thomas22 (15 Apr 2008)

I think it is pretty generous i'm looking at houses at the moment and i'm generally offering around 20% under asking price. No one has accepted yet but i'll keep trying


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## Neil_Ireland (15 Apr 2008)

I think I'll offer €250k and see what happens , they can only say no!


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## television (15 Apr 2008)

where i.e. county is the house?


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## Neil_Ireland (15 Apr 2008)

television said:


> where i.e. county is the house?



Navan Co.Meath


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## television (15 Apr 2008)

Ok that is interesting. I have a few friends there. I think you should stick to your guns and offer 250 and that is an absolute max. Be firm. its not that there is not a lot of choice in Navan. If they dont take it tell the estate agent your going to make an offer on another house. And dont let him push you up by another 5 grand. Stick to your guns you will get the house for 250.


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## Neil_Ireland (15 Apr 2008)

television said:


> Ok that is interesting. I have a few friends there. I think you should stick to your guns and offer 250 and that is an absolute max. Be firm. its not that there is not a lot of choice in Navan. If they dont take it tell the estate agent your going to make an offer on another house. And dont let him push you up by another 5 grand. Stick to your guns you will get the house for 250.



Thanks for the advice, I'll call the estate agent tomorrow, fingers crossed


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## mercman (15 Apr 2008)

No NO No. Start at around the 235 level. You can always go up, but very difficult to come down in price. If you have your finance in place, tell the EA you are a Ready to Go buyer. And Good Luck.


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## Neil_Ireland (15 Apr 2008)

mercman said:


> No NO No. Start at around the 235 level. You can always go up, but very difficult to come down in price. If you have your finance in place, tell the EA you are a Ready to Go buyer. And Good Luck.



Wow that low! Would I not get laughed at offering that amount?


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## davidoco (15 Apr 2008)

Neil_Ireland said:


> Wow that low! Would I not get laughed at offering that amount?


 
Let them laugh, but if you eventually get the house for 245 and you have 5k to spend on a new kitchen, you'll have the last laugh.

He who laughs last and all that.


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## mercman (15 Apr 2008)

So what if you are laughed at. Will you or do you intend to see these people again ?? Met with one of my Bank Managers today and he told me that the Banks reckon that the house market has a fair bit more to drop. You can always go up in price but it is to difficult to come down. This is a completely different market that what it has been up to 2006. I'll tell you you won't be laughing if you pay to much.


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## television (15 Apr 2008)

Listen to mERCMAN mankes a HELLL OF A LOT OF SENCE!!! and could have saved you 10 grand or more. Only one laughing in the end will be you. My stratagy of sticking to your guns mercmans offer  of 235.


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## Thomas22 (15 Apr 2008)

Neil_Ireland said:


> Wow that low! Would I not get laughed at offering that amount?



If you are not getting laughed at your are offering too much IMO


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## extopia (15 Apr 2008)

Here's an interesting article on global house prices, including Ireland.


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## Neil_Ireland (15 Apr 2008)

Thanks guys, great advice here, I'm going to sleep on it and make a decision on how much I'll offer in the morning.

I think I'll have to revise my thought of offering €255.

Thanks,
Neil.


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## Thomas22 (15 Apr 2008)

Neil_Ireland said:


> Thanks guys, great advice here, I'm going to sleep on it and make a decision on how much I'll offer in the morning.
> 
> I think I'll have to revise my thought of offering €255.
> 
> ...



Keep us posted on how you get on


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## Neil_Ireland (15 Apr 2008)

Thomas22 said:


> Keep us posted on how you get on



Will do, thanks.

Neil.


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## Importer (16 Apr 2008)

The laughing has stopped a good few months back.
Offer 230 and increase 5 later to seal the deal


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## television (16 Apr 2008)

again I aggree with Importer


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## aidan119 (16 Apr 2008)

This is the biggest financial decision of your life. Hold out for a few months and rent a place. Don't buy this EA/builders hype that there is great value out there. For the first time in many years the market is in favour of potential buyers so make it work for you. House prices have to get back to a reasonable rate relative to average incomes. Research what happened in the UK and Japanese markets in the late 80's and take a very reasonable gamble that the same will happen here. It is now happening in the UK again and the only thing keeping prices up here is loads of PR from estate agents , the CIF,  and economists working for or in the back pocket of banks and building societies. These people thrive on high prices and the media give them too much publicity imo.
Eventually developers will have to lower their prices for new developments to pay off their loans. This will knock onto 2nd hand prices. especially in an area like Navan.


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## television (16 Apr 2008)

good point aidan. maybe waiting six months might be the best thing. HOwever fft buyers are spending a smaller portion of ther total income on morgages than they were six months ago. 

I would wait six months house prices are only going to go down during that time. The danger is you might have your heart set on buying a house. dont let your heart win out.


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## Neil_Ireland (16 Apr 2008)

Well, I called the estate agent and offered €235k, she said it was well below the asking price. 
I said the vendors are in a hurry to sell, I'm a ftb with mortgage approval so there will be no hold-ups. She said ok and would call me back.

So wait and see!

Neil.


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## slinky (16 Apr 2008)

Neil, make sure the agent provides you written confirmation that they put your offer forward to the vendor. Otherwise they could be just yanking your chain.

Remember not all buyers have the ability to understand the market  as you do and will gladly fork over the asking price.


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## mf1 (16 Apr 2008)

slinky said:


> Neil, make sure the agent provides you written confirmation that they put your offer forward to the vendor. Otherwise they could be just yanking your chain.
> 
> Remember not all buyers have the ability to understand the market  as you do and will gladly fork over the asking price.




1. The EA has no obligation to OP to provide written confirmation...........
2. Most vendors and EA's have grasped that serious purchasers are in short supply - I just don't buy the paranoid "they are all liars, cheats and eejits" crap who are not passing on offers. 
3. If I was selling my house, I would sell it to the highest bidder. I would not engage in a competition as to who I though understood the market best. Strange but true. 

mf


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## slinky (16 Apr 2008)

mf1 said:


> 1. The EA has no obligation to OP to provide written confirmation...........
> 2. Most vendors and EA's have grasped that serious purchasers are in short supply - I just don't buy the paranoid "they are all liars, cheats and eejits" crap who are not passing on offers.
> 3. If I was selling my house, I would sell it to the highest bidder. I would not engage in a competition as to who I though understood the market best. Strange but true.
> 
> mf


 
1. I didnt say they are OBLIGED, I said make sure you GET. An EA will not mind a polite request if everything is above board. Unfortunately, there are occassions when they don't bother putting offers forward. Why should an EA put forward an offer for 40k less than the asking price when the current attitude is to leave your house on with an EA for over a year in the hope of getting exactly the asking price.
2. No ones asking you to buy any crap.... I have advised the buyer to ensure his offer is taken seriously nothing more. 
3. You are correct and I have not said otherwise, merely advised the buyer that while they put in a reasonable offer in the current market, not all potential buyers are savvy enough to do the same and will pay the full asking price. And they may therefore miss out on the house, due to another buyers ignorance and the sellers desire to get the best price. This is commerce at its best and worst.


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## mf1 (16 Apr 2008)

" when the current attitude is to leave your house on with an EA for over a year in the hope of getting exactly the asking price."

This is so not true. Vendors are desperate to sell their houses. I just do not see any evidence that EA's are encouraging the above - they will not get paid until the house is sold. I deal with a lot of estate agents - I find them fine to deal with. Mostly they are supremely practical.  

Why would they encourage the above behaviour?

mf


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## slinky (16 Apr 2008)

I did not imply that EAs are encouraging this attitude. I am saying that vendors are not aggressive in selling they are merely accepting the situation and taking no action to get rid of their EA or dropping the price. So EAs will be under no pressure to achieve.

daft is full of houses that have been on sale for over 6 - 18 months.


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## mercman (16 Apr 2008)

Because some of them act in the manner stated. Estate Agents are obliged by law to submit the bid to the vendor, no matter how good or bad it is. 

Neil - the likelihood is that they will come back and ask for another offer - it's up to you, but in this market there's no need unless you really really want the property.
Mf1 -maybe the EAs you deal with are practical - lucky you. Most of the EAs I have come across are unparactical and downright spoofers.


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## slinky (16 Apr 2008)

MF1, couldnt agree more. Spoofers is very apt.


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## mf1 (16 Apr 2008)

slinky said:


> MF1, couldnt agree more. Spoofers is very apt.




I doubt that we would agree - I think you mean mercman with whom you have a remarkable affinity.

mf


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## aquaceri (16 Apr 2008)

Hi there,

Certainley not! Go for it, almost all auctioneers will be open to offers of any description for their vendors especially the way the current market is at the moment!

I went to view a house the other day that was on at 285k when i walked in the door the ea said "vendor would probably take 283k" then by the time i was leaving the house ten minutes later the ea was saying "if you were thinking of an offer in or around the 270s i can put that to my client". It dropped 15k in 15mins thats 1k per minute!

I decided against it but i also got 15k off the one that i went for in the end. People want to sell at the moment so its a buyers market, may not be for long so my advice is go in as low as you want and work from there.


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## Lulu123 (16 Apr 2008)

Hi there,

235 is a great offer and they should jump at the chance of selling it for that.

Just wanted to tell you what happened me. I am in the process of buying a house. It initially was on for 600k in Sep and has fallen through twice, each time with a reduction in the asking price and with the seller getting even more frustrated. The house is in a great location and although needs a bit of work is a great size so I really was interested in it from the beginning. The last asking price was 530k and when I offered 460k for it the EA chuckled and said that never in a million years would they take it and that they would probably rent it out rather than let it go for that. 
So I waited.................and guess what 2 weeks later he called me back to see if my offer still stood. 

So never think your offer is too low. Its a buyers market so make sure you keep re-iterating that you are ready to go and that its worth a lot of money. Your position makes you a damn good bet for the seller so take your discount where you can! 

Buyers should stop thinking about Estate Agents and sellers feelings about prices being too low. Or being laughed at. At the end of the day you're the one who has to pay the mortgage so do you really care if they laugh or feel hurt.


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## Neil_Ireland (16 Apr 2008)

Hi Lulu,

Thanks for the advice, I'm curious to see what the estate agent says when they call me back.

Neil.


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## thejuggler (16 Apr 2008)

I think its not a buyers market everywhere.  Certain well located desireable addresses seem to be holding their value.  I viewed  a 3 bed semi in Cork with PP for extension recently.

Asking Prce was 400k.  The day i viewed it there was an offer of 362.  Over the past fortnight this has increased to 390 and now 397k

So it depends. Some areas will always be in demand.  Either that or not everyone in the market at present is aware of the recent trend in falling prices.


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## MrKeane (16 Apr 2008)

Well there are nearly properties 65000 on daft alone for sales today and almost 12000 for rent, so I wouldn't be in too much of a rush to commit if I was you Mr. Ireland.

As was mentioned by thejuggler though if a house is in a good location (with very few nearby for sale) then I would take a slightly different approach.


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## Neil_Ireland (16 Apr 2008)

Well I just got a reply from the EA, he said was I serious with my offer. He also said that I was belittling the market and the property I viewed and that I was taking the pi$$.
I said I was serious and my offer stood, he said there is no way he would deal with me and and not to be wasting his time on that property or any other properties he has on his books, he would welcome me viewing other properties but not to make ridiculous offers like that.
He said there was 10k off the original price and there was no way I would get a house for the price I offered.

Neil.


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## comanche (16 Apr 2008)

Hope you rebutted back and said that's what the property is worth - its only worth what someone is willing to pay.

You offered the correct amount, if the seller is not insulted you have offered too much!


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## mercman (16 Apr 2008)

Neil - they are nice kind of guys aren't they !!!- and they don't even own the property. You know the likihood is that he hasn't put the offer to the vendors at all. If you were living in the near area, you might type up your offer and drop it into their post box, teling them you were unsure as to whether the agent had submitted your offer to them.


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## Lulu123 (16 Apr 2008)

Its tactics...he is trying to bully you into a better offer.  Estate Agents realise that this is all over the news now, its not just a little secret they know. 
Best thing to do is walk away.  Believe me someone will take your offer and especially after the way he spoke to you and what he said would you really want to go back and offer more.

Run for the hills, give that EA a couple of weeks and he will be chasing you up them!


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## Neil_Ireland (16 Apr 2008)

comanche said:


> Hope you rebutted back and said that's what the property is worth - its only worth what someone is willing to pay.
> 
> You offered the correct amount, if the seller is not insulted you have offered too much!



He said there was no way in hell I would get a house on his books for €235k, my reply was....six months ago you would have said there is no way I would get a house for €275k, but Navan is full of them, brand new from €275-280.
I said €235k is what I thought the house was worth, and my offer stood.

Neil.


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## delboy159 (16 Apr 2008)

Neil_Ireland said:


> Well I just got a reply from the EA, he said was I serious with my offer. He also said that I was belittling the market and the property I viewed and that I was taking the pi$$.
> I said I was serious and my offer stood, he said there is no way he would deal with me and and not to be wasting his time on that property or any other properties he has on his books, he would welcome me viewing other properties but not to make ridiculous offers like that.
> He said there was 10k off the original price and there was no way I would get a house for the price I offered.
> 
> Neil.


 
Really impressed that you stuck with the 235k to start...  I'm shocked by the agressive tactic of the Estate Agent.  It's a big market out there and insulting potential clients (you may well want to sell a house in the future) is crazy.  Anyway, 14.5% under the asking is not a crazy offer...  The EA sounds like someone under pressure.  I find it ironic you weren't told that someone had outbid you....  If 235k was too low, well then someone would have offered more, surely.  He has already knocked off 10k without blinking, whxih was  agreat sign...  Don't be afraid to remind him that there are numerous properties (too many for you to view them all) that will suit your needs on the market and that you are no fool and can see none are getting offers and none are selling......  If he wants to sell to you he'd want to make you an offer you can't refuse....  
There are areas holding their value in the current market - but they are rare....  the majority of areas are suffering, badly....


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## slinky (16 Apr 2008)

Ok Seriously, who actually lets an EA or anyone talk to them in that manner. I despair I really do.

I would be around at the Agents standing his table reading him the riot act for his ignorance.

I would also be going to the vendor and pointing out that their EA is adversely affecting the sale of their property through intimidation and foul language.

If the vendor stands up for the EA, screw it otherwise, tell the vendor your offer only stands if the EA is fired.

Next step letter and phone call to EAs boss if any.


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## Neil_Ireland (16 Apr 2008)

slinky said:


> Next step letter and phone call to EAs boss if any.



That was the boss


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## slinky (16 Apr 2008)

Name and Shame him, I bet you wont be the only person who has this attitude from him.


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## wishbone (16 Apr 2008)

slinky said:


> Name and Shame him, I bet you wont be the only person who has this attitude from him.


Not sure naming and shaming is allowed on Askaboutmoney anyway...but dying to hear how you get on Neil_Ireland...


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## Neil_Ireland (16 Apr 2008)

wishbone said:


> Not sure naming and shaming is allowed on Askaboutmoney anyway...but dying to hear how you get on Neil_Ireland...



Not about to name ans shame but the ball is in their court, I'm in no hurry to buy. I'll give it a couple of weeks and see what happens 

Neil.


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## slinky (16 Apr 2008)

I know, just wishful thinking. Wish we had a ranking table or something for all people providing services in the Property market, similar to the rankings used on the investment forums.


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## television (16 Apr 2008)

Neil you handeled that suituation well there. dont let that guy intimidate you. plenty of good homes avalible in navan. go somewhere else you ill get your house for 235


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## Debtwish (16 Apr 2008)

Neil_Ireland said:


> Not about to name ans shame but the ball is in their court, I'm in no hurry to buy. I'll give it a couple of weeks and see what happens
> 
> Neil.


 
If he comes back to you (and he probably will), revise down your offer explaining that your previous offer stood at the time but no longer.

Remember, when markets were rising, many EAs didn't think twice about using ghost bidders to drive buyers higher against themselves.

The boot is now on the other foot.


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## Peeete (16 Apr 2008)

I think EAs to some extent are using the thats too low - you'll never get a property for that price, but they can use your bid to get other people interested. In the meantime if they don't get an increased offer they will usually come back at some stage. If they do you should use that to your advantage and renegotiate down again.


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## slinky (16 Apr 2008)

Debtwish, very good advice. EA need to feel the pain.


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## Peeete (16 Apr 2008)

slinky said:


> Debtwish, very good advice. EA need to feel the pain.



Slinky - you have strong feelings against EAs. Its not that they necessarily should "feel pain", but the power has switched from the seller to the buyer and the buyer should embrace this - but not in a vendictive way!


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## Kemo_Sabe (16 Apr 2008)

Debtwish said:


> If he comes back to you (and he probably will), revise down your offer explaining that your previous offer stood at the time but no longer.
> 
> Remember, when markets were rising, many EAs didn't think twice about using ghost bidders to drive buyers higher against themselves.
> 
> The boot is now on the other foot.


 
Gazundering!

excellent idea sir


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## mf1 (16 Apr 2008)

slinky said:


> Ok Seriously, who actually lets an EA or anyone talk to them in that manner. I despair I really do.
> 
> I would be around at the Agents standing his table reading him the riot act for his ignorance.
> 
> ...





I can see that the world will truly be a better place when you're in charge.

mf


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## mercman (16 Apr 2008)

No - the world will be a better place when the young EAs learn some manners. It'snot their property they are selling and it's definetly not their money when a punter is buying. The old fashioned honest agents have been shamed by the ignorance of the newbies.


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## Neil_Ireland (16 Apr 2008)

Peeete said:


> I think EAs to some extent are using the thats too low - you'll never get a property for that price, but they can use your bid to get other people interested. In the meantime if they don't get an increased offer they will usually come back at some stage. If they do you should use that to your advantage and renegotiate down again.



I was thinking that alright.....if they get back to me!

Neil.


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## Peeete (16 Apr 2008)

Neil_Ireland said:


> I was thinking that alright.....if they get back to me!
> 
> Neil.



Its a difficult knowing whats right to do (you tend to get attached after putting in a bid). In this market though its probably worth sitting tight for a while at least.


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## Kemo_Sabe (16 Apr 2008)

to OP: sit tight and save, save,save. I applaud your guts.

the same property or similar will be on the market for 20/30% less this time eighteen months


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## slinky (16 Apr 2008)

I don't have feelings one way or the other for EAs, merely that I detest their inability to provide a service in an efficient and courteous manner.

Much the same as I detest they way in which many people accept this as the norm.

I make a big point of thanking those in any industry who provide a good service.


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## bamboozle (16 Apr 2008)

To the OP, stick to your guns, 235k is 85% of the guide price which is more than reasonable given the current market, I actually posted on here about 6 weeks ago seeking advise as I had made an offer of about 88% of the guide price on an apartment, and like you was ready to move immediately.
Upon hearing the offer the EA told me it was an insult and ‘it would have the opposite effect on the sellers’ (whatever that meant)
I calmly said that was my one and only offer and if I was to spend any more I would be looking to buy a house.
Low and behold 2 weeks later he came back asking me if my offer still stood, to which I replied no that I had since changed my focus to buying a house- he then replied he had lots of houses on his books (now there’s a surprise) and he’d ring me back within an hour to arrange some viewings….that call came….3 weeks later!!

So bottom line, in the current market stick to your guns, folk are having trouble selling, EA’s want their commission, so sit tight and be patient!!!


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## mercman (16 Apr 2008)

Kemosabe.Just a reminder the market is not going to keep going down forever. The day will NOT come when houses will be given away for nothing. This is a blip in the market -- in fact the World Economy. My own view is that houses will cease their downhill spiral by the end of the year and depending on location will steady themselves in a manner when sense will prevail. The days of persons queing to buy houses or having to purchase the biggest asset of their lives time after a viewing being rushed by an incompetent EA are hopefully gone.


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## Clown (16 Apr 2008)

I thought this site 'doesnt do discussion on house prices'!


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## mercman (16 Apr 2008)

Clown - you're right. Sorry about that.


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## CreditCrunch (16 Apr 2008)

I dont see Ireland INC running out of houses any time soon.

Buyers on the other hand????


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## CreditCrunch (16 Apr 2008)

Mercman I have to agree with you to a point.

I mean things have happened in the past that we can look to as a guideline.

Things have been up and down for years in England.

The rollercoaster ride has many turns.

Generally speaking though it does not go consistently up.

Although over long periods of time house prices have never fallen.


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## iguana (17 Apr 2008)

Kemo_Sabe said:


> Gazundering!
> 
> excellent idea sir



It is only gazundering if an agreement has been made.  If the vendor had accepted the offer and they and Neil had started processing the sale and Neil decided to lower his offer the day before exchange that is gazundering.

But no agreement has been made, so if the EA calls Neil next month and says the vendor will now accept his offer but Neil says my offer is now €220k that is not gazundering as no agreement has been reached.


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## Kemo_Sabe (17 Apr 2008)

CreditCrunch said:


> Although over long periods of time house prices have never fallen.


 
rubbish: see Japan 1989-present

better stop now as I don't want to be banned for d****ssing h***e p****s (even if they're on the other side of the world)


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## Kemo_Sabe (17 Apr 2008)

iguana said:


> It is only gazundering if an agreement has been made. If the vendor had accepted the offer and they and Neil had started processing the sale and Neil decided to lower his offer the day before exchange that is gazundering.
> 
> But no agreement has been made, so if the EA calls Neil next month and says the vendor will now accept his offer but Neil says my offer is now €220k that is not gazundering as no agreement has been reached.


 
aha, thanks - useful definition iguana

so if, hypothetically, the EA comes back and says your 235k offer is good and OP then re-offers, say 215k instead, what would this be classified as?


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## comanche (17 Apr 2008)

iguana said:


> It is only gazundering if an agreement has been made.  If the vendor had accepted the offer and they and Neil had started processing the sale and Neil decided to lower his offer the day before exchange that is gazundering.
> 
> But no agreement has been made, so if the EA calls Neil next month and says the vendor will now accept his offer but Neil says my offer is now €220k that is not gazundering as no agreement has been reached.



I would not follow this strategy at all this will aggravate the seller and you will not go sale agreed. If the EA does come back I would place the bookin deposit subject to surveyors support and then if you want to gazund them do so when they are about to sign contracts using the surveyors report. Do not do so to an excessive amount or the deal will collapse. Use the surveyors report as a bargaining tool.


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## Kemo_Sabe (17 Apr 2008)

comanche said:


> I would not follow this strategy at all this will aggravate the seller and you will not go sale agreed. If the EA does come back I would place the bookin deposit subject to surveyors support and then if you want to gazund them do so when they are about to sign contracts using the surveyors report. Do not do so to an excessive amount or the deal will collapse. Use the surveyors report as a bargaining tool.


 
how much would you recommend gazundering by comanche? Another 10k maybe due to 'strucutural issues'?


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## whizzbang (17 Apr 2008)

Kemo_Sabe said:


> aha, thanks - useful definition iguana
> 
> so if, hypothetically, the EA comes back and says your 235k offer is good and OP then re-offers, say 215k instead, what would this be classified as?



I believe it is classified as a new negotiation.

If I went to a car showroom in 1980 and was offered a new Toyota Corolla  for £5,000  and I refused. I cannot return to the showroom today and demand to be given a new Toyota Corolla for £5,0000 (or whatever it is in Euro)


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## comanche (17 Apr 2008)

Kemo_Sabe said:


> how much would you recommend gazundering by comanche? Another 10k maybe due to 'strucutural issues'?



I don't recommend any amount, not my place. However if the anyone wants to follow other peoples advise of gazunding then they need to show that they are interesting by entering into the first part of contract agreements otherwise they will be seen as messers and not taken seriously.

As for the OP, what he does is entirely up to him. Everyone loves to give an opinion but he is the one that has to live with his decisions at the end of the day.


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## Camry (17 Apr 2008)

I have to agree that what is being suggested here is not gazundering.

The agent has clearly told the buyer where to get off. If the agent returns at some point looking to recommence negotiations, then fine. But they can hardly expect to be able to do business on the same terms.


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## MrMan (17 Apr 2008)

> He said there was no way in hell I would get a house on his books for €235k, my reply was....six months ago you would have said there is no way I would get a house for €275k, but Navan is full of them, brand new from €275-280.
> I said €235k is what I thought the house was worth, and my offer stood.
> 
> Neil.


Hi Neil,

I have to say I'm finding this post very interesting and it has at times turned into a baying mob looking to get even with EA's, so i would take some of the advice with a large pinch of salt. I presume you are still interested in buying. if so consider your original opinion, you thought an offer of €255,000 was a good place to start considering asking price was €275,000 down from €285,000. Before contacted the EA you were given advice from Mercman, slinky and more suggesting €230/€235,000 and even some suggesting you should lower again. You now have told the EA that you think €235,000 is what its worth, but clearly that is not true, that is what some anonymous people who havn't even seen the property think it is worth and if you read back over some of their previous posts you may find a distinct pattern in their posts. Mercman - Ea's are rogues, go in low etc etc, Slinky seems to be following a very similiar tune, Thomas22 is still going in 20% below asking and still hasn't done a deal. So ask yourself is the advice in any way balanced or rational? 

You are doing the buying, what is your gut feeling? If someone hadn't put the thoughts of an extra €20/25,000 saving in your head would you have thought the way you are now?.

I'm an EA so you can take my opinion as a vested interest if you like but i just think if you really do like it consider revising your position.


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## theoneill (17 Apr 2008)

I think we're somewhere between Denial and Bull Trap







The house is only worth as much as somebody is willing to pay. There seems to be a glut of stock in Navan, so don't get to worried if you're offer is rejected there's plenty more out there.


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## mercman (17 Apr 2008)

Not alone is there a glut of stock out there, Navan was the first place where Banks took over houses and allowed the then mortgagees rent them.

Mr.Man , you remind me of one of the old stock Estate Agents, responsible, fair and reputable. You tell me, in this market how can any residential property be valued to determine a Sale Price. Its all to do with Supply and Demand. The OP was originally on his own admission 'new to this'. If a person places a For Sale sign on a property nowadays it means that hey want to sell and know in their own mind that variances    in lower prices are going to happen. The fact that the EA where the offer was given was downright rude and ignorant gives no allowance for a genuine offer not to be forwarded. And finally, I don't know the value. you don't know the value and certainly the vendor's EA doesn't know either. What I do know is that if A.N.Other wants to sell a property in a hurry, there will be pain.


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## Thomas22 (17 Apr 2008)

*Re: House price €275, offer €255*



MrMan said:


> Hi Neil,
> 
> I have to say I'm finding this post very interesting and it has at times turned into a baying mob looking to get even with EA's, so i would take some of the advice with a large pinch of salt. I presume you are still interested in buying. if so consider your original opinion, you thought an offer of €255,000 was a good place to start considering asking price was €275,000 down from €285,000. Before contacted the EA you were given advice from Mercman, slinky and more suggesting €230/€235,000 and even some suggesting you should lower again. You now have told the EA that you think €235,000 is what its worth, but clearly that is not true, that is what some anonymous people who havn't even seen the property think it is worth and if you read back over some of their previous posts you may find a distinct pattern in their posts. Mercman - Ea's are rogues, go in low etc etc, Slinky seems to be following a very similiar tune, Thomas22 is still going in 20% below asking and still hasn't done a deal. So ask yourself is the advice in any way balanced or rational?
> 
> ...



fair point MrMan. But all bar one of the properties i've bid for are still on the market so i'm in no rush. I'd rather have 10 rejected bids than one successful bid at €1 more than i could have got away with.


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## Camry (17 Apr 2008)

Mr Man,

There is now massive excess supply in the market which is still growing (i.e. numbers for sale and time to sell rising). That means that prices are a long way above a clearing price.

Add to that the simple fact that only a fool (or an Estate Agent) would recommend a negotiation tactic of starting high.

I have seen more than one example of a vendor giving a response to an offer such as this one, only to later drop their asking price even lower when they have failed to sell.


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## MrMan (17 Apr 2008)

Mercman, your right about the valuation in todays market, it is difficult to assess a fair selling price without going into the whole ' a house it worth what someone will pay for it'. The problem that I find with the views people are taking is that a uniform approach is being taken i.e knock x% off the guide price. Yuo cant take one approach and apply it to every property. I agree with you that every buyer should be putting themselves in a position to maximise their savings but they should also be aware that there is a limit to how low vendors can go as they will find out when the shoe is on the other foot. 
The EA in this case hasn't a clue how to deal with clients as someone rightly pointed out why lose a client who is obviously looking to buy somewhere soon. I would doubt however that the EA wouldn't return to the vendor with the offer and approaching vendor directly is something I am always sceptical about but I do see the logic in it.

Thomas22, I do think that you will find something in the end, but your approach would suit very few i imagine as it must take alot of time and patience and also alot of flexibility as to the location, style etc that your eventual house will have. I'm not being dismissive I was just trying to ad to the overall 'big picture'.


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## angela59 (17 Apr 2008)

Hi,

Just one point I would like to make and have made it before - It is a home you are buying, everyone's talking about negative equity and afraid that there is house is going to be worth less if they bite the bullet now in a few month's time.  If you are buying a home I presume you are going to be there for the next 5 to 10 years so if it ticks all the boxes that suit you and if you get it less than the asking price why not go for it.


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## Thomas22 (17 Apr 2008)

angela59 said:


> Hi,
> 
> Just one point I would like to make and have made it before - It is a home you are buying, everyone's talking about negative equity and afraid that there is house is going to be worth less if they bite the bullet now in a few month's time.  If you are buying a home I presume you are going to be there for the next 5 to 10 years so if it ticks all the boxes that suit you and if you get it less than the asking price why not go for it.




Regardless of whether it is an investment or a home to live in if you can save €50,000 then you should do your utmost to do so. Doesn't matter how long you intend to stay there IMO.

I can never understand why people are so easy with money loaned from a bank.  €50k is €50k I'd rather have it than give it to someone else


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## Murt10 (17 Apr 2008)

Neil


You said in your first post that the house was for sale with two different auctioneers.

Off you go now to No 2. Explain what has happened, complain about the first auctioneer. Make the same offer and see what happens.

As some of the other posters have said, Navan (and areas in the outer commuter belt) are likely to fare very badly in a downturn.

As a matter of interest, how long would it take to get from Navan to the city centre for 9.00 am and how long would the return trip take leaving at 5.30 pm. I know Meath on Track is pushing for a rail link, but even with the best will in the world, and unlimited funding, that's not going to be a reality for 10 years or more.



Murt


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## Trustmeh (17 Apr 2008)

OP I think you would do well to listen to MrMan... he seems like a decent type of EA. My father was a decent type of EA, he loved to give people the keys to their dream...a home.

He gave me some advise a few years ago about the state of property in Ireland.  10 years up, 10 years down.  The up will be bigger than the down and in the long run you always make money. But the housing market takes a long time to "turn around".

My own experience for what its worth? My house is on daft, the house i want is on daft. Been that way for a year now. Im not lowering my price, in fact I probably couldnt sell it now for asking price as the house i want is part of a chain anyway. Why havent i taken it down from DAft? Why should i? Im not bothered anymore and find it interesting the longer it stays on the market - its my own little acid test of the market.

The OP can offer any amount he wants to, but if hes not willing to bargain with the vendor/ea than why is bothering to a bid in at all? The vendor could be like me, i wouldnt take 1% below my asking price.


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## Sangster (17 Apr 2008)

The OP can offer any amount he wants to, but if hes not willing to bargain with the vendor/ea than why is bothering to a bid in at all? The vendor could be like me, i wouldnt take 1% below my asking price.[/quote]


Will you still be the same if the house still hasn't sold in a years time ?  You are deluding yourself.


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## Neil_Ireland (17 Apr 2008)

Murt10 said:


> Neil
> 
> 
> As a matter of interest, how long would it take to get from Navan to the city centre for 9.00 am and how long would the return trip take leaving at 5.30 pm. I know Meath on Track is pushing for a rail link, but even with the best will in the world, and unlimited funding, that's not going to be a reality for 10 years or more.
> ...



The job I have means I don't have to travel to Dublin at peak times, so rush hour won't affect me.


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## Neil_Ireland (17 Apr 2008)

yankinlk said:


> The OP can offer any amount he wants to, but if hes not willing to bargain with the vendor/ea than why is bothering to a bid in at all? The vendor could be like me, i wouldn't take 1% below my asking price.



I am willing to bargain, if the estate agent had have said the vendors would need more than my original offer and hinted at I price I would have considered upping my offer after a week or so, but after the way he dealt with me I'm in two minds.

I doubt he even put mo offer forward to the vendors.


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## Camry (18 Apr 2008)

Neil_Ireland said:


> I am willing to bargain, if the estate agent had have said the vendors would need more than my original offer and hinted at I price I would have considered upping my offer after a week or so, but after the way he dealt with me I'm in two minds.
> 
> I doubt he even put mo offer forward to the vendors.


 
With an agent like that one, I reckon this place will be on the market for a while.

ALso, to address again Mr Man's point earlier. Another thread has popped up in this forum where the OP thinks they have paid too much and are thinking of gazundering on an agreed price. That is the exact reason why in any negoitation (especially one with large sums in play) you just have to start low. EA's should know this and not get the strop.


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## MrMan (18 Apr 2008)

> EA's should know this and not get the strop.



Are you saying I was being stroppy? My point was not that he shouldn't start low, rather that he might be in a better position to value how low to start with given that he has actually seen the property and we haven't. People will give advice on how to negotiate and to slash your offer etc but in the heat of things he has to do what he's comfortable with and also if he actually wants the house be realistic. Just because you or I say that you could get it for 20% less doesn't mean thats going to happen.

Negotiations (nearly) always start outside of the target price, its not a new concept.


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## Camry (18 Apr 2008)

MrMan said:


> Are you saying I was being stroppy?


 
No.

I was saying there is a story in this thread about an EA getting the strop. So don't get stroppy.

I really think it boils down to a situation that when there is negligible risk that you are going to miss out on a once in a lifetime opportunity, the only risk you face is paying more than you really needed to.

Only way to avoid that is think about what might be an "insulting offer" and make your first pitch somewhere below that.


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## MrMan (18 Apr 2008)

Camry,

I agree with you in principle that you need to start low in negotiations, but what some people are not grasping is that negotiations can mean the price will shift up a bit. I can't understand those who say go in very low and if they don't accept it go in lower again, it really doesnt work. I wish more people would actually try and insult me with offers because once an offer and any offer is on the table i can start to really earn my keep. Alot of people really won't put in a low offer because of embarrassment which I don't understand. 

If you go low thats well and good but do allow from some upward movement.


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## Maid Upname (18 Apr 2008)

MrMan said:


> Camry,
> 
> I agree with you in principle that you need to start low in negotiations, but what some people are not grasping is that negotiations can mean the price will shift up a bit. I can't understand those who say go in very low and if they don't accept it go in lower again, it really doesnt work. I wish more people would actually try and insult me with offers because once an offer and any offer is on the table i can start to really earn my keep. Alot of people really won't put in a low offer because of embarrassment which I don't understand.
> 
> If you go low thats well and good but do allow from some upward movement.


 

THAT sounds very sensible to me !!!


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## Trustmeh (18 Apr 2008)

Neil_Ireland said:


> I am willing to bargain, if the estate agent had have said the vendors would need more than my original offer and hinted at I price I would have considered upping my offer after a week or so, but after the way he dealt with me I'm in two minds.
> 
> I doubt he even put mo offer forward to the vendors.



You might be right there - and I dont agree that he isnt necessarily doing his job! I have left instructions with my vendor not to accept any offer below my asking price. Why should I? The house I want has not reduced its price (and been on the market 6 months longer than me!) I offered  lower price and they refused and rented it out.  The houses im in is fab tbh - i dont really _need_ to move at all.

The simple fact is if i reduce my price the same has to happen all along the chain to make the numbers work. In the area im in that just isnt happening.


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## TDON (18 Apr 2008)

slinky said:


> Agreed. Boxed up means major debt!


 
From the perspective of a major hoarder, I cannot say your conclusion on this, can be altogeher accurate. Maybe the sellers have had major clutter and just started to de-clutter to sell and in the process have put everything into boxes just to make it easier for later. Not much point in cleaning up and putting everything you are going to bring with you, back out to gather dust again.!!!

So, if you see what I mean, you could be just drawing the wrong conclusions, if you've always been very effecient at getting rid of "rubbish", for want of a better word and one that I can't use here.


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## television (18 Apr 2008)

house prices are going to down for another 6 months at least. 

any other analysis seems to be clutching at straws. 

buy now at anywhere near the asking price in Navan and your a complete sucker. 

I told my friend that about a property in Crum;in 9 months ago. He would nt listen. propertys in that area are down 50 GRAND and im no property expert. 

All the indications are that prices have room to come down further.


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## iguana (18 Apr 2008)

MrMan said:


> I can't understand those who say go in very low and if they don't accept it go in lower again, it really doesnt work.



Say I put an offer on a house a month ago.   I like the house but it's above my budget so I go in with the highest offer I can, say €20k below asking.  I might be bidding lower but I have nothing to sell and I have mortgage approval so I'm a good bet if the vendor accepts my offer.

At the time the vendor rejected my offer but in the last month has gotten worried and decides they want to take my offer after all.  They tell the agent to get back to me and see if I'll still buy.  And as I haven't found anything else I like I'd be delighted to buy the house.  However my bank has changed it's mortgage rates in the last month, as have many others and the most I can afford now is €40k below the asking.  

It isn't spite on my part, it isn't a negotiating tactic, it doesn't matter what the EA or the vendor thinks.  The situation has changed and my new offer is now all I can afford.


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## mercman (18 Apr 2008)

iguna - you sound like a rock of sense. The entire  buying population is in the same boat so why not try  €30k  below instead. And I'll give you even money that you will be successful.


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## iguana (18 Apr 2008)

mercman said:


> iguna - you sound like a rock of sense. The entire  buying population is in the same boat so why not try  €30k  below instead. And I'll give you even money that you will be successful.



It was just a hypothetical, I'm not buying anywhere now.  In fact I'm selling, but in London where the market hasn't quite seized up yet.


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## mercman (19 Apr 2008)

Hate to tell you, but if it's the same London I'm involved in, well Yes it has. The market there is grinding to a halt, North, South and Central, and prices off a minimum of 25%


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## iguana (19 Apr 2008)

I don't want to jinx it by talking about it before exchange, but it's gone very well so far.

What do you do?


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## extopia (19 Apr 2008)

235k was a reasobable offer.

According to myhome,ie, asking prices have dropped only 3% on average over the past year, whereas final sale prices have dropped by 15%.

Now these are average figures. But the conclusion you must draw from them is that the average property can be had for about 12.5% below today's asking price.

So it's reasonable to assume that, right now, an average type house with an asking price of 275k can be bought for about 240k. Those are the cold facts of the current market. 

So 235 is not an insulting offer - a little low, but not excessively so, and reasonable enough in a downward trending market. The EA is wrong to insult you. Just present the second agent (forget about the first guy, he's trying to intimidate you, and assuming you don't know much about the market) with your offer. 

Or wait a little longer and offer less.


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## gazzer (19 Apr 2008)

Could it be a case that if the vendors have asked for 275,000 for the house that they have already reduced it in relation to similar properties in the area?

I only ask because I put my house on the market last month. For 2 weeks prior to this I went around my estate and took note of all the houses that were up for sale. All of the houses are the exact same as mine in terms of layout and size. They are all 3 bed terraced houses (obviously the interior design would be different). I then checked on the net to see what prices were being asked for these houses.

I knocked into some of the houses and explained that I was considering selling my house and if they could recomend the EA they were with. Anyway most people I spoke to were very forthcoming about what the EA was like and how many viewings they had and how long the house was on the market.

Most houses were on the market for 3 months or more with some viewings. Cheapest house asking price was 290,000 with the most expensive going for 320,000.

Now I knew there was no way I was going to get 320,000 for my house if there was already houses with that asking price not selling. When I picked my estate agent I told her I wanted my house to be priced at 275,000. At that price I figured that I was factoring in the % decrease in asking prices that has occured over the last while. In my mind I was being realistic and do you know what??? After 4 days an offer was put in for the full asking price. I am now just wating for the deeds from the bank and then sign the contracts.. I know that until the contracts are signed that the buyers could back out but Im hopeful that they wont as there is no chain (they are first time buyers and I am moving out to another part of Ireland so will be renting for a while)


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## iguana (19 Apr 2008)

gazzer said:


> Could it be a case that if the vendors have asked for 275,000 for the house that they have already reduced it in relation to similar properties in the area?




If the vendor is on with two agents it sounds like they have been on the market for a while and is not going to achieve what the vendors are hoping for.


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## BurritoQueen (19 Apr 2008)

My goodness YES offer a lower price by all means. We found a pristiene 4 bed 3 bath house 2,100sqft on 2 acres with a garage, over looking stunning 180 degree lake views on the Co MAYO- GALWAY border. The asking price was €270k. We made an offer of €240k it was accepted and will be moving in shortly.....Good luck there are LOTS od really great deals out there.


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## mercman (19 Apr 2008)

Burrito. Did you buy around Cong / Clonbur  if I may ask ??


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## ajapale (19 Apr 2008)

mercman said:


> Burrito. Did you buy around Cong / Clonbur  if I may ask ??



Hi Burrito,

Its not a good idea to divulge too much personal detailed information on a public discussion board like this.


aj
(moderator)


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## mercman (19 Apr 2008)

Yep, Sorry about that. All I will say is welcome to the real world where the only important thing is the bit of crack.


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## di74 (19 Apr 2008)

Neil,
If you feel the EA hasn't put forward your bid, go ahead and put it forward yourself. Drop a note in their letter box, explain your situation (Ready to Go etc) and see their reaction.
When I purchased my current home (4 years ago) at the height of the madness, I couldn't even get viewings arranged, EA weren't willing to do viewings unless they had plenty of people coming.
Dropped a note into house I bought explained to vendor I was very interested yet couldn't seem to arrange a viewing...... lo and behold the EA was on the next day, full of apologies and never had another rude word from them either.
Remember they are working for vendor.


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## groom (19 Apr 2008)

gazzer said:


> Now I knew there was no way I was going to get 320,000 for my house if there was already houses with that asking price not selling. When I picked my estate agent I told her I wanted my house to be priced at 275,000. At that price I figured that I was factoring in the % decrease in asking prices that has occured over the last while. In my mind I was being realistic and do you know what??? After 4 days an offer was put in for the full asking price.


Perfect sense. If the price is right (at a level that someone will be interested)then it will sell. However this is a rare attitude amongst vendors. Taking the opinion "why should I drop my asking price?" - To sell it of course.Pretty obvious.


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## MrMan (21 Apr 2008)

> Perfect sense. If the price is right (at a level that someone will be interested)then it will sell. However this is a rare attitude amongst vendors. Taking the opinion "why should I drop my asking price?" - To sell it of course.Pretty obvious.



Its not as rare as you may think, more and more are pricing their homes more competitively to sell. there are some that still expect above market prices but time usually sees them come around. 

Iguana, the scenario that you mentioned re: leaving a bid on for a month before it is accepted does not reflect on where I was coming from. When I said that making and offer and reducing it didn't work I meant the following: offer goes in at €250k, vendor refuses stating its €30k under asking, I say well its a buyers market and my new offer is €240k you have 24 hours to accept! This kind of advice is fantastical and doesn't help. Your scenario is a totally different kettle of fish.


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## Pope John 11 (22 Apr 2008)

OP, Neil,

Any update on this one mate


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## BurritoQueen (22 Apr 2008)

I have a 'BAD' EA story with a HAPPY ENDING

I looked at a house on the market for €270 reduced from €340k (brand spanking new, 2100 sqft, 4 bed, 3 bath, hardwood floors, German windows, garage, 2 acres, 180 degrees views of lake, 180 degree views of hills, only 1 mile to Shop-Pub-POST combo). Met with EA made offer of €250k.....waited for 5 days no response, contacted EA 'she' explained that the property was being managed by a DUB Solicitor/Executor as owner had died. She was still waiting for response, 7 days later still no response. 

After 3-4 calls from me, I got a voice mail from the *owner *of this EA that an offer had been accepted for €230K 2 months earlier and our offer had been rejected as the Executor wanted to stay with origional offer..(hmmmm???)  I called back the EA owner and asked if contracts were signed and deposit paid and if all was as he said WHY WAS THE HOUSE STILL ON THE MARKET? He said it was a mistake and he'd nothing more to say on the matter and abruptly hug up_....(??? hmmmm me smells a fish_)

I want this house; after nearly two years of looking this was it my dream home (and price). So I went into action.... I called the local PUB and asked about the house history...got an earfull AND a call back from a neighbouring farm family that knows the family of the deceased house owner personally. Got telephone numbers. Drove from Dublin back to house on the Co Mayo/Galway border. Met with Sister of deceased and got the full scoop: Name and number of Executor and that the family of 9 siblings had been waiting for over two years for the house to be sold but were told there were no vieiwings(???) 

I by-passed the EA altogether and made my offer direct for €240k... he was amazed at my story. He said they HAD indeed accepted an offer from the EA for €230k but that it had been nearly 6 months with not a penny exchanging hands and as he'd been busy on other matters he hadn't pursued the EA on the status of the offer.

I told him upfront my origional offer had been €250k but in the light of the situation....€240k was all I was offering. He accepted and we sign contracts next week. (yeah perhaps I could've got it for €230k but for €10k I move in within the week)

MORAL OF STORY: 
(1) its a buyers market 
(2) If it smells like a fish it IS a fish
(3) Go direct if you want the house...or anything for that matter


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## Neil_Ireland (22 Apr 2008)

Pope John 11 said:


> OP, Neil,
> 
> Any update on this one mate



No update sorry, I haven't done anything since the viewing.

Neil.


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## Trustmeh (22 Apr 2008)

BurritoQueen said:


> I have a 'BAD' EA story with a HAPPY ENDING
> 
> MORAL OF STORY:
> (1) its a buyers market
> ...


 
Wow, that is a great story! Well done.


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## Feek (23 Apr 2008)

Good on you.

Have another story for you lot.

Mother was buying a house 2 years that was advertised at 440. She put in full asking price offer and was told there was another bidder, they had put in 450. Got into a bidding war until it was up to 560. 

All the norm for the market at the time, except... the counter offers were coming back too fast for my liking and I suspected there wasn't another bidder. Mum was getting carried away and also I thought if she could afford 560 then she could afford a nicer house than that one. The house wasn't that great, had a garage but small back garden.

Told her to pull out as thought she was being taken for a ride. She did and guess what...no 'Sale Agreed' went up and house stayed on the market for months after. 

If there was another bidder why didn't they buy the house? Cos they didn't exist!

Did a bit of snooping locally and turned out the vendor didn't even know there was an offer on the house, never mind a bidding war with offers 120k over his asking price.

If it smells like a fish indeed.

Mum got a much better house in a nicer area in the end for 500k.


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## truthseeker (24 Apr 2008)

Was speaking to a couple last night who went to a particular well known EA and made an offer on a house (4 weeks ago), were told there was a better offer, they upped their offer, were told the other bidder had done same etc.... this went on until my friends said they couldnt go higher and pulled out. Last week For Sale sign re-appeared and house is re-listed on myhome.ie (with same EA) for same price.

Fishy eh?


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## MrMan (24 Apr 2008)

> Last week For Sale sign re-appeared and house is re-listed on myhome.ie (with same EA) for same price.
> 
> Fishy eh?



Or, the other party pulled out, I know that doesn't bode well with the 'their always out to screw us brigade' but amazingly it happens, just look at advice thats given here on a regular basis and the questions being asked its often 'will i get my deposit back if I pull out now' or 'bid on as many houses as you like and go for the best deal'.


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## truthseeker (24 Apr 2008)

MrMan said:


> Or, the other party pulled out, I know that doesn't bode well with the 'their always out to screw us brigade' but amazingly it happens, just look at advice thats given here on a regular basis and the questions being asked its often 'will i get my deposit back if I pull out now' or 'bid on as many houses as you like and go for the best deal'.


 
Yes - thats certainly a possibility, the couple in question had the distinct feeling their chains were being pulled at the time of bidding (not that that means anything i suppose).


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## Camry (24 Apr 2008)

MrMan said:


> Or, the other party pulled out, I know that doesn't bode well with the 'their always out to screw us brigade' but amazingly it happens, just look at advice thats given here on a regular basis and the questions being asked its often 'will i get my deposit back if I pull out now' or 'bid on as many houses as you like and go for the best deal'.


 
You agreed with me recently, so I am willing to agree with you. 

Despite what apears obvious to me and a growing proportion of the population, there is still a significant number of people who fear that the just HAVE to buy now and all that other stuff that is still coming out daily from VIs (some more "there will *never* be a better time" twaddle just yesterday from the new President of the IAVI).

If you happen across someone like that, they will go into auction frenzy and bid until they win. Only to find out that banks no longer share their views nor enthusiasm and they can't actually afford what they want to buy.


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