# Community welfare officers (CWOs) average €300/child on communion grants.



## DerKaiser (2 Feb 2012)

[broken link removed]

I've seen it all now.  It would make a good April fools joke if it wasn't so sad.  

Is there any wonder we're spending €20bn on social welfare?

Basic payments are only the half of what's paid out when you look at rent allowance, fuel allowance, back to school allowance, communion allowance, bereavement grants, etc

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/

When you consider the acres of newsprint on Michael Fingleton's €1m bonus (completely justified uproar), why aren't we up in arms about a payment *over three times the size incurred every year*.  In three years since he pocketed the bonus, ten times the amount has been squandered by the state on bling and fake tans for a one day hooley for 8 year old kids of people who are out of work.  This is simply outrageous.  

The sad thing is how cavalier the people in charge of such payments are about throwing this kind of cash around whilst the rest of us toil away paying extortionate taxes in complete misapprehension of how the social welfare budget is spent.

We pay €500m p.a. in rent allowance (http://www.ronanlyons.com/2011/11/29/rent-supplement-time-for-taxpayers-to-use-their-market-power/).  It's clear to anyone with a brain we could immediately cut at least €100m off this bill without endangering the chances of social welfare tenants from finding accommodation (probably more given the property overhang) and yet the targetted saving is a measley 4% of the bill. 

Why has nothing happened on these things?  Because the people in charge of these "schemes" could not give a toss about squandering tax revenues.  If you earn above €33k and work an hour's overtime from 6 to 7pm, you get paid from 6.00 to 6.28.  You're busting your ass from 6.28 to 7pm to pay communion benefit, over inflated rent supplements and all the other crazy handouts no one in charge has ever cared to sort out (maybe one is not as uptight about the unfairness of it all when one is already on the bus home at five past five).


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## RMCF (2 Feb 2012)

It'd be funny if it wasn't true.


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## june (3 Feb 2012)

This should be completely scaled back by the church and the parents.  I see no reason why the children cannot receive their first holy communion at a regular morning mass in their local church with their classmates and parents. They could wear  their regular school uniforms  possibly covered by an alb ( a white cape type garment as worn in other countries ) 
What is the need for all the fuss. I just dont get it.


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## shesells (3 Feb 2012)

I can't believe people are up in arms that it's been cut back to just over €100. That's still more than enough to clothe a young child in clothes appropriate to the day. 

The excesses around birthdays, Christmas, Communions, Confirmations and Debs..not to mention "leaving cert holidays" these days totally sicken me. I'm only in my early 30s but can't understand how things got so out of control. I guess I should include weddings but I've noticed that that was one of the areas that people started cutting back on much earlier in this recession.


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## huskerdu (3 Feb 2012)

We had the quite surreal situation of Sinn Fein complaining that the government if reducing a grant which is completely discriminatory, as it is given to members of one religion only, and the Catholic Church spokesman saying that people should spend less on communion


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## The_Banker (3 Feb 2012)

Just another example of one of the benefits of a state sponsored religion.


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## T McGibney (3 Feb 2012)

This has nothing to do with religion or Catholicism. The clergy are horrified with the circus of excess that First Holy Communion has become and many priests and bishops have spoken out against it in the media and locally, only to be decried as 'spoilsports' by their usual critics.

The ridiculous Communion Grants are all to do with the naked political vote buying regime of Bertie Ahern and his chums, that we (not they) are paying for.

Mary Lou McDonald is happy for her party to shut schools throughout Northern Ireland in a dubious attempt to save money but wants this sort of wilful waste to continue in the Republic. I wonder why?


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## terrysgirl33 (3 Feb 2012)

Our local priest at least has appealed on parents to scale back on the circus.  Many of the parents I know (not all of them, obviously) have no intention of spending anything like that on FHC, I would hope to get everything for her for less than €100, and to use as much as possible for her sisters. 

Was there as much fuss years ago?  I made my communion back in the 70s...


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## Kerrigan (3 Feb 2012)

I must have been hiding under a rock for the past few years because I never knew such a grant existed.  I couldn't believe my ears yesterday.  Absolutely shocking to say the least.


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## Purple (3 Feb 2012)

T McGibney said:


> This has nothing to do with religion or Catholicism. The clergy are horrified with the circus of excess that First Holy Communion has become and many priests and bishops have spoken out against it in the media and locally, only to be decried as 'spoilsports' by their usual critics.
> 
> The ridiculous Communion Grants are all to do with the naked political vote buying regime of Bertie Ahern and his chums, that we (not they) are paying for.
> 
> Mary Lou McDonald is happy for her party to shut schools throughout Northern Ireland in a dubious attempt to save money but wants this sort of wilful waste to continue in the Republic. I wonder why?



Well said.


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## Delboy (3 Feb 2012)

The Community Welfare Officer pays out for some amount of stuff, usually to the same people year in year out:
- Santa Claus gifts
- bills runs up in local grocery shops
- upgrading of white goods even if not broke
- upgrading of furniture even if in good condition
- help to buy suits for 'interviews'
- cash towards school day outs
- cash for top of the range TV's and entertainment systems (to keep the kids out of trouble!)
- computers and internet access (for the kids and their school work!)

I'd heard of this communion grant a few years back. The same people in the free houses, in their own local area of course, are the same people who are with the Community Welfare Officer a couple of times a month.
And a lot of them manage a decent social life as well as smokes every week also. 

the Troika have a long way to go to get this place in order before they go home (if they ever do)


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## micmclo (3 Feb 2012)

As said above, why can't the children wear their school uniforms and if wanted, they can get some kind of gown to wear over it. Just a very simple cheap gown and everyone wearing the same.
Uniforms on their own is just as good too

Not sure what was up with Joe Duffy yesterday, was in foul humour yesterday, insulting his callers and said this gown suggestion was like taking Ireland back to the thirties.



T McGibney said:


> This has nothing to do with religion or Catholicism. The clergy are horrified with the circus of excess that First Holy Communion has become and many priests and bishops have spoken out against it in the media and locally, only to be decried as 'spoilsports' by their usual critics.



Well said


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## Protocol (3 Feb 2012)

For information:


These payments come under the heading of Exceptional Needs Payments, part of Supplementary Welfare Allowance (SWA):

http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Schemes/Sup...s/default.aspx

Expenditure is as follows:

SWA = 951m

of which Exceptional Needs Payments = 70m

Back to School clothing and footwear = 77m

http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Policy/Rese.../2010stats.pdf


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## Firefly (3 Feb 2012)

Would it not be better to leave it totally up to parents to finance what they want with no grant of any kind?


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## Protocol (3 Feb 2012)

More info:

Some more details on Exceptional Needs Payments:

Housing = 27m, esp new furniture and rent deposits

Clothing = 14.5m

Prams / buggies / cots = 2.1m


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## Protocol (3 Feb 2012)

Note that these payments are nothing to do with the Church.

They are focussed on the sacrament.

It's the parents who are focussed on the clothes, party, etc.


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## T McGibney (3 Feb 2012)

Firefly said:


> Would it not be better to have religion taught outside of school entirely and leave it totally up to parents to finance what they want with no grant of any kind?



This issue has nothing to do with religion in schools, so I don't see the point in pretending otherwise just to allow you have a swipe at it.


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## polo1 (3 Feb 2012)

Yes I agree its an absolute disgrace... For me it should be scrapped and all schools should have garbs for the children to avoid one out blinging the other with fake tan, dresses etc etc..

Well said Delboy on the Troika... If this is what my hard earned money is going on then I give up...


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## TarfHead (3 Feb 2012)

T McGibney said:


> This issue has nothing to do with religion in schools.


 
My 2 cents ..

When children are brought through the religious preparation in school for their first Holy Communion, the sole focus for parents can be the social dimension, making the day an event.

If the schools left the preparation to the parents, the parents may be more engaged in the sacrament. Ideally, that might dampen the enthusiasm for the event, and focus more on the sacrament.

Also, in a vox-pop on RTE Radio yesterday, from IIRC Galway, more than one person mentioned '_parents wanting to give their children the best_'. IMHO, that should be '_parents wanting to give their children the best that they can afford_'.

My 2 kids have each made their first Holy Communion and I've become desensitised to stories of excess. One family, whose daughters are two years apart, spent approx. €800 on each dress, and their means are modest.



polo1 said:


> .. all schools should have garbs for the children to avoid one out blinging the other with fake tan, dresses etc etc....


 
I know of one parish in Bray that does this. However that doesn't stop the '_fake tan bling_'. They do all of that, then put on the garb over it .


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## micmclo (3 Feb 2012)

Firefly said:


> Would it not be better to have religion taught outside of school entirely and leave it totally up to parents to finance what they want with no grant of any kind?



You quoted me but that wasn't realy my point at all

This thread is about something else


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## T McGibney (3 Feb 2012)

TarfHead said:


> When children are brought through the religious preparation in school for their first Holy Communion, the sole focus for parents can be the social dimension, making the day an event.
> 
> If the schools left the preparation to the parents, the parents may be more engaged in the sacrament. Ideally, that might dampen the enthusiasm for the event, and focus more on the sacrament.



Can you please explain how you come to that conclusion as your logic utterly escapes me.


TarfHead said:


> Also, in a vox-pop on RTE Radio yesterday, from IIRC Galway, more than one person mentioned '_parents wanting to give their children the best_'. IMHO, that should be '_parents wanting to give their children the best that they can afford_'.



... or perhaps  '_parents wanting to show off, even if they can't afford_ _it_' .

And remember, we can all afford everything, once the State is picking up the tab.


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## micmclo (3 Feb 2012)

The people who can least afford it are the ones who splash out the most

Isn't that an anecdotal thing people say

Just an observation


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## mloc (3 Feb 2012)

Getting back to the point in question, there are plenty of ways for kids to be kitted out for around the €100 mark or less. 
There are loads of examples of good quality communion sets for decent prices in here. 

Regardless of where parents think the emphasis should be (the sacrament/the appearance of the kids/the party afterwards) there should be less pressure when it comes to buying the clothes.


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## TarfHead (3 Feb 2012)

T McGibney said:


> Can you please explain how you come to that conclusion as your logic utterly escapes me.


 
I didn't come to a conclusion. Note the use of _may be_, _might_ & _Ideally_.

In my experience, the worst excesses of the first Holy Communion celebration are undertaken by those with the least commitment to the sacrament and the Church.

The family I cited as spending excessively on the children's dresses have not been seen at family Mass since then.

If parents were more involved with the religious preparation of their children, the focus on the sacrament might lessen the focus on the event. One mate of mine has his children at an Educate Together school. He took each of them to classes in the local church for their preparation for first Holy Communion. Even though he is, relatively, affluent, his family's celebration of each first holy Communion was low-key.


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## Firefly (3 Feb 2012)

T McGibney said:


> This issue has nothing to do with religion in schools, so I don't see the point in pretending otherwise just to allow you have a swipe at it.


 
Easy there tiger! I wasn't having a swipe at all. As a Catholic myself with a strong enough, non church-going faith, I am planning on sending my children to Catholic schools because they happen to be excellent schools. I'd prefer if religion wasn't taught during the school day at all and the extra time was spent on something useful like a foreign language. I do agree though that this isn't relevant to this particular debate, so I'll edit my post accordingly.


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## terrysgirl33 (3 Feb 2012)

It kind of comes down to identifying where the pressure comes from for the big show in the first place.  It's not coming from the church.  My children go to an Educate Together school, so I don't think it's coming from there, but does it come from the school in other schools?  I just can't see teachers encouraging that kind of showmanship at all (maybe I know the wrong teachers!).


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## The_Banker (3 Feb 2012)

T McGibney said:


> *This has nothing to do with religion or Catholicism. The clergy are horrified with the circus of excess that First Holy Communion has become *and many priests and bishops have spoken out against it in the media and locally, only to be decried as 'spoilsports' by their usual critics.
> 
> The ridiculous Communion Grants are all to do with the naked political vote buying regime of Bertie Ahern and his chums, that we (not they) are paying for.
> 
> Mary Lou McDonald is happy for her party to shut schools throughout Northern Ireland in a dubious attempt to save money but wants this sort of wilful waste to continue in the Republic. I wonder why?


 
Really?
Then why not have a FHC day during a normal Sunday mass?


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## Purple (3 Feb 2012)

The_Banker said:


> Really?
> Then why not have a FHC day during a normal Sunday mass?



Because it is a big deal from a religious perspective but has nothing to do with wealth, consumerism or showing off to the neighbours. In fact Christianity should be about the opposit of that.


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## Guest105 (3 Feb 2012)

It is a funny situation really considering the vast majority of Irish people are now '_a la carte_' Catholics and the Communion day is a day for the parents to get blind drunk rather than concentrating on the enjoyment of the children.

Yes I believe in general the exceptional needs payments are widely abused and it is about time that the whole Social Welfare System in Ireland received a complete overhaul. 

 In the UK there is no such thing as exceptional Needs payments, there used to be a benefit called a Communty Grant where you paid back the money over time but now with the cut backs its nearly impossible to get that,  a single person gets £67 a week on the dole and that is it. It is not easy to live on that money every week  considering basic groceries such as two litres of milk now cost £1.20, a loaf of bread £1.50 and half a pound of butter cost £1.45.


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## Guest105 (3 Feb 2012)

mloc said:


> Getting back to the point in question, there are plenty of ways for kids to be kitted out for around the €100 mark or less.
> There are loads of examples of good quality communion sets for decent prices in here.
> 
> Regardless of where parents think the emphasis should be (the sacrament/the appearance of the kids/the party afterwards) there should be less pressure when it comes to buying the clothes.



Nothing cheap about those clothes on your second link considering there are second hand


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## RMCF (3 Feb 2012)

IF you look at this logically, or from an outsider to the country looking in, then its hard to understand why the taxpayer should pay for people to get ready for their FHC.

Of course it all stems back to the power of the Church in this country, but if so, why are peoples weddings not given a subsidy from the Gov? 

I say cut it all to zero, and make children do it in their school uniforms. Problem solved. You'd get uproar for a while but we'd soon get used to it, and silly money being spent would be a thing of the past, and the important part of the day might actually be focused on.

You wouldn't think this country was bust the way some people are giving off about this.


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## Delboy (3 Feb 2012)

RMCF said:


> IF you look at this logically, or from an outsider to the country looking in, then its hard to understand why the taxpayer should pay for people to get ready for their FHC.
> 
> Of course it all stems back to the power of the Church in this country, but if so, why are peoples weddings not given a subsidy from the Gov?
> 
> ...



it has nothing to do with the Church's power in the past, present of future. As I said in my earlier post, the CWO's are dishing out cash for any teary eyed story and mostly to the same few who've always got their hands out. 
And this country is only too willing to give money to the 'disadvantaged'....but thankfully change is happening


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## Marion (3 Feb 2012)

€300 paid to claimants in Dublin - the highest amount paid in any region for religious ceremonies - communion and confirmation - seems to be obscene. I doubt dresses/suits/outfits cost more in Dublin!


The grant should be abolished - not cut by 50%.

Marion


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## mloc (3 Feb 2012)

TarfHead said:


> I didn't come to a conclusion. Note the use of _may be_, _might_ & _Ideally_.
> 
> In my experience, the worst excesses of the first Holy Communion celebration are undertaken by those with the least commitment to the sacrament and the Church.
> 
> ...



That is extremely harsh.
Why should a person who has made their communion have commitment to the church? Surely the commitment is to God?


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## Marion (3 Feb 2012)

I have 12 nieces. A total of 3 dresses have been purchased over a 24 year period for First communion

The first dress was a badge of honour worn by 7 nieces and was shipped back and forth across the Atlantic. The girls could not wait to wear it and all talked of Joanna's dress. It looked as beautiful on the seventh girl as on the first.

The second dress was worn by 3 sisters who wanted an heirloom of their own.

The third dress was worn by 2 sisters.

Funnily enough, all the boys - 3 for so far - had new outfits. The last boy is a couple of years away from his second big religious event.

Not all managed to receive confirmation. Atheism took hold! 

Marion


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## Lex Foutish (3 Feb 2012)

RMCF said:


> IF you look at this logically, or from an outsider to the country looking in, then its hard to understand why the taxpayer should pay for people to get ready for their FHC.
> 
> Of course it all stems back to the power of the Church in this country, but if so, why are peoples weddings not given a subsidy from the Gov?
> 
> ...


 
Great post, RMFC.



Marion said:


> €300 paid to claimants in Dublin - the highest amount paid in any region for religious ceremonies - communion and confirmation - seems to be obscene. I doubt dresses/suits/outfits cost more in Dublin!
> 
> 
> *The grant should be abolished - not cut by 50%.*
> ...


 
I completely agree. Most of the kids I know who make their Communion and Confirmation make hundreds of euro, over a thousand in many Confirmation cases. Surely the expense could be taken, post event, from this money. . . .

And I agree with posters who say that the religious meaning, on the day, is of secondary importance in many cases. I know of a situation in the past year, locally, where two mothers spent over a grand on Communion outfits *for themselves*, in an effort to out do each other on the day. Not the norm, I admit, but it happens. 

A few years ago, a boy we know, who was in 6th class at the time, told us that he couldn't wait for his Confirmation. When I "innocently" asked him why, he replied, "Pay Day!"

Computer, phone, electronic and gadget shops do very well in Cork in the days immediately following Confirmation, and all of their customers aren't middle or upper class children . . . . .


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## Lex Foutish (3 Feb 2012)

Marion said:


> I have 12 nieces. A total of 3 dresses have been purchased over a 24 year period for First communion
> 
> The first dress was a badge of honour worn by 7 nieces and was shipped back and forth across the Atlantic. The girls could not wait to wear it and all talked of Joanna's dress. It looked as beautiful on the seventh girl as on the first.
> 
> ...


 
This post made me smile, Marion. My daughter's Communion dress was made from my wife's wedding dress.


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## Marion (3 Feb 2012)

Lex Foutish said:


> This post made me smile, Marion. My daughter's Communion dress was made from my wife's wedding dress.



Aw! Lex, that's  a wonderful story.

Marion


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## Lex Foutish (3 Feb 2012)

mloc said:


> That is extremely harsh.
> Why should a person who has made their communion have commitment to the church? Surely the commitment is to God?


 
Hi Mloc. To be fair, communion and other sacraments are more of a Church thing than a God thing. If Christians' commitment was more to God than to the Church, I doubt if there would be any need for sacraments. 

I myself have been guilty of taking the kids to mass every Sunday in the run up to their Confirmation and not being too pushed about it all afterwards.  If I had my time back, I'm not sure I'd be too put out if they didn't make the sacraments. At the time, our kids would have wanted their big day and they would have stuck out like sore thumbs as the only kids in the class not making it, which is possibly a factor for many parents thinking along those lines also. But nobody in our house goes to Mass now or has anything at all to do with the Church. 

And speaking of sacraments, *it's Confession time* . . . Until I heard about this on the radio this morning, I didn't know that such grants existed.  For an instant, I thought it was a wind up or something like an April Fool's joke. Does anyone know when these grants were introduced or have they been in existence for a long time?


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## Marion (3 Feb 2012)

These grants are definitely in existence for a long time.

I remember my late mother telling me about asking a client whom she asked about her second daughter's communion and saying it was great she could wear her sister's dress - worn one year earlier.

She was met with "On no! my daughter will have a new dress and won't be wearing a second-hand dress." 

Shock horror!

This woman was receiving social welfare.

This was shocking to us at the time - at least 10 years ago.

Marion


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## Delboy (3 Feb 2012)

yeah, been on the go for a good few years. I heard of a few extended families who utilised it when the time came along....were'nt shy in saying it either


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## beffers (4 Feb 2012)

Lex Foutish said:


> This post made me smile, Marion. My daughter's Communion dress was made from my wife's wedding dress.



That is just lovely. 

My sister and I shared the same FC veil. It was wrapped in tissue paper and stored in an old Monopoly box and kept in the top of my parents wardrobe long after our FC's. Well into our 20's, we loved to take it down and try it on amid howls of laughter. Our mother gave it away without telling us. It broke our hearts, my sisters especially as she has 2 daughters who she would have loved to see wear it. Would love to see that kind of recycling take place down thru the generations & not this relentless need to out bling each other with brand new stuff (usually of crap quality compared what used to be made) at the tax payers expense !


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## Purple (4 Feb 2012)

My two boys wore their school uniforms for their communion.
My eldest daughter is making her first communion this year. Mrs. Purple is organising the dress. There'll be no fake tan, fake nails or mad hair-do's, not because it's expensive but because she's a child. You'd swear some parents were grooming their girls for the local paedophile the way they tart them up for these events.


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## AgathaC (4 Feb 2012)

Probably going off topic here but I have (thankfully) never seen a child at a Communion with fake tan, just wondering has anyone actually seen this?


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## CMCR (6 Feb 2012)

We discussed this whole _*'Exceptional Needs Payment for Communion/Confirmation'*_ issue yesterday and like others, I think the payments are a joke. It annoys me that CWO's are handing out this sort of cash to people who can't seem to plan, or save, or to get a second-hand outfit or a hand-me-down. Do you honestly think a 7 or 8 year old will know the difference? Jeez - how did anyone manage before the Recession?  I saw some dresses in a chain store yesterday that were lovely and certainly didn't cost upwards of €200, so I can't see why these payments were being made. 

My partner is one of a family of 10, of which 8 are girls and all of them wore the same dress. My niece will now wear the same dress this year that her mother and aunts wore, and is very excited about it.

I have a number of family members who are clergy and they are just appalled by the extravagance of some these events and have seen at first hand the fake tan, the limos and so on.  They have told me that the real meaning of the event is lost some on parents who are more interested in putting on a show and an excuse to have a party. 

As a taxpayer, it frankly galls me that I am paying for CWO's to hand out this cash, while my niece is delighted to wear something that is 40+ years old and has at least a special meaning. 

Rant over!


CMCR.


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## ajapale (7 Feb 2012)

Some OT posts have been deleted.

Topic Reminder:   Community Welfare Officers (CWOs) average €300/child on communion grants.


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## ajapale (7 Feb 2012)

I agree with CMCR's view and think these payments should be abolished.



CMCR said:


> We discussed this whole _*'Exceptional Needs Payment for Communion/Confirmation'*_  issue yesterday and like others, I think the payments are a joke. It  annoys me that CWO's are handing out this sort of cash to people who  can't seem to plan, or save, or to get a second-hand outfit or a  hand-me-down. CMCR.


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## ajapale (8 Feb 2012)

OT posts deleted.

If posters want to discuss fake tan and first holy communicants then start your own thread about it.

This thread is about the €300 on average paid by the CWO service to families with children undergoing communion and confirmation.


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