# What's wrong with Irish banks?



## tedd (21 Dec 2001)

Today's Irish Times reports the results of the European Customer Satisfaction Index which shows that customers of Irish banks are among the least satisfied in Europe.

Are Irish banks really among the worst in Europe or are Irish customers just too difficult to please?

[broken link removed]


----------



## Freddie Kruger (21 Dec 2001)

Hi tedd,

I wonder would it have anything to do with this observation from another thread ?

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote>*Quote:*<hr> My point about political correctness is based on my own perception that these days people in Ireland seem to spend all the time whinging indignantly (and hypocritically) about the failings and wrongdoings of others while being totally blind to their own shortcomings.[quote/]

              <hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->


----------



## rainyday (21 Dec 2001)

Do I detect some industry insiders blaming the customers for not being happy?   While customers can be a pain in the ass for all of us at times, the bottom line is they are usually the decision maker who chooses to hand over some of their hard-earned to us or to one of our competitors. So, quite simply, the customer is always right, even when their wrong.

Personally, I think Irish bankers have found it very difficult to adapt to the changing environment where they are facing educated and literate customers who are quite prepared to take their business outside the big name institutions to get a better deal. They have also been extremely slow to adapt the kind of product developments that have appeared in the UK (e.g. current account mortgage, automated account switching), despite the fact that some of the Irish institutions offer these services in the UK. 

Regards - RainyDay


----------



## tedd (21 Dec 2001)

<!--EZCODE ITALIC START-->_  Do I detect some industry insiders blaming the customers for not being happy?_<!--EZCODE ITALIC END-->

Hi RainyDay,
Not guilty! The only link I have to banking is being yet another contributor to their profitable bottom-line (although I do try to get a bit of it back by being a small shareholder!) 

tedd


----------



## Nollag (23 Dec 2001)

*Irish banks*

Having lived and worked in the UK for years, I have to say that my own personal experience with banks over there is that they offer far superior levels of service, much better value in terms of mortgages and share dealing services, and also offer no charges to customers as the norm.

Here's hoping that something will happen in the sector (such as the arrival of more banks from the UK) to shake things up a little.

To label customers as  whingers is unfair in the extreme. We, the customers of these institutions, are the ones who pay these guys' salaries at the end of the day.


----------



## Richard Eberle (30 Dec 2001)

*Irish Banks*

For a long time we have been critical  of the banks profit margins and level of service,  but two observations:

1.  Tusa offerred a different channel of distribution with the (mostly) lowest mortgage rates in the market and went out of business because it attracted only 500 mortgages.  Clearly price is not everything.

2.  Bank of Scotland made a massive contribution to Irish homeowners by introducing competition here.  But the truth is the Irish public did not deliver enormous business to BofS as they remain a relatively small , though important, player.

Until consumers act in there own interest (and not just complain) banks or any other companies for that matter, have no real motivation to change.


Richard Eberle
www.rea.ie


----------



## CM (30 Dec 2001)

*Yes ... but*

In relation to Tusa - part of their failure was, I believe, due to the fact that people in Ireland generally don't view their mortgage as a commodity and are not necessarily comfortable arranging one in other than a "traditional" financial institution as opposed to a supermarket or whatever.

In relation BoS - their market share may be relatively small but it must be remembered that they deliberately "cherry pick" their target customers (e.g. no first time buyers, relatively strict limits on LTV etc.).

<!--EZCODE BOLD START-->* Until consumers act in there own interest (and not just complain) banks or any other companies for that matter, have no real motivation to change.*<!--EZCODE BOLD END-->

I agree wholeheartedly.


----------



## rainyday (2 Aug 2002)

*Re: Yes ... but*

An interesting story about bank charges, from the Indo


----------



## Fairs fair (3 Aug 2002)

*I am not happy with this story at all!*

I am not happy with story at all. The headline ran...

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote>*Quote:*<hr> <!--EZCODE BOLD START-->* Credit watchdog is puzzled by 'excessive and unfair' AIB charges *<!--EZCODE BOLD END--><hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->

This contributes to the view that banks are ripping off customers all the time. But while the story is interesting, all it does is list one of AIB's customers in 1999 who had a disagreement with AIB which was resolved by the Ombudsman.

And the story does try to strike a balance by reporting AIB's side of the story:

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote>*Quote:*<hr> 
Earlier in his report,(the ombudsman) noted that, "correctly and fairly applied... there is no doubt that many of those fees (on the complainant's accounts) are in order."

"However, there are a few instances where a fee was debited even though the balance in the overdraft was less than the amount on deposit. I do not consider it was fair to apply a fee in that situation.


"Furthermore, in a cursory examination of the individual statements, I have noticed quite a few occasions when individual fees of £3.50 were applied, which puzzle me. It is not at all clear why these particular fees were charged, and it may well be that they are not justified."

<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->

So a customer queried the charges and the Ombudsman felt that some were fair and some were not. 

AIB, our largest bank responded:

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote>*Quote:*<hr> 

"Of the 897 cases (for all of the institutions) which were referred to the Ombudsman in the period to June 2002, 43 related to AIB and were progressed through the scheme.


"Fifteen of those cases were subsequently upheld by the Ombudsman, and resulted in awards totalling approximately €7,000 being recommended in favour of the relevant customers.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->

So in total, the Ombudsman has awarded €7,000 against AIB's customers in the unspecified period to June 2002.
This hardly merits the headline, which implied that overcharging was widespread.

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote>*Quote:*<hr> 
The businessman closed the account in 1999 still "owing AIB around £4,000". He says that he "tried to do a settlement."


However, last year an investment policy, which had been assigned to AIB when he took out the loan was partially cashed in to cover his debts, amounting to £5,086 at that stage. He feels hard done by, as this was his "family's security."<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->

Does this sound like a compliant customer? He tried to do a settlement. There is only one way to do a settlement - pay back the money you owe.


Tyson finishes his article with;
<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote>*Quote:*<hr> We would also like to point out that we have no reason to believe that this story represents a pattern of behaviour by AIB.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->

There is every reason to believe that this represents a pattern of behaviour by AIB. When people don't pay their loans, AIB, eventually call in the security. As a depositor, I would withdraw my money from AIB, if they did anything less!

FF


----------



## rainyday (3 Aug 2002)

*Re: I am not happy with this story at all!*

Hi FF - I think you're being a little harsh on Bill Tyson. You say

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote>*Quote:*<hr> Does this sound like a compliant customer? He tried to do a settlement. There is only one way to do a settlement - pay back the money you owe.
<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->

You need to look at this scenario in the context of the overall article. It depends on who decides/specifies the amount owed. If the bank is calculating the amount owed included the excess & unjustified charges, then it is not unreasonable to expect the borrower to attempt to settle for a lesser amount.

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote>*Quote:*<hr> When people don't pay their loans, AIB, eventually call in the security. As a depositor, I would withdraw my money from AIB, if they did anything less!<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->.

I presume then that given that AIB settled with the great CJH for a much smaller amount than his total debts, you have already withdrawn all your funds from AIB?


----------



## XFF (4 Aug 2002)

*the overall context*

Hi Rainyday

The context was quite clear from the article. The guy disputed the charges on his bank account. He referred them to the Ombudsman. The Ombudsman decided that half of the charges were justified and half were not, so he "disallowed" them.

It seems that the customer was not happy with this and then decided to make the bank chase him for his money. It seems clear to me that the amount recovered by the bank is the amount as reduced by the Ombudsman. 

I don't think it's like an Irish Nationwide case, where a very high interest rate has been charged and penalty interest and they agree to settle for a lower amount.

The Charlie Haughey case was most unfortunate for AIB. They were between a rock and a hard place. With all that we know about Charlie now, they should have gone for him. But can you imagine the public outcry if our largest bank bankrupted the Taoiseach? 

And even if they made a mistake with Charlie, are you seriously suggesting that anyone who borrows from AIB should be able to do a settlement?

The choice of FF as my pseudonym is completely accidental.

XFF


----------



## rainyday (5 Aug 2002)

*Re: the overall context*

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote>*Quote:*<hr> It seems clear to me that the amount recovered by the bank is the amount as reduced by the Ombudsman. 
<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->

Hi XFF - Can you confirm how you came to this conclusion from the original article. It seemed a bit ambiguous to me on this important issue?


----------



## xxff (6 Aug 2002)

*I'll get the papers on you...*

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote>*Quote:*<hr> The businessman closed the account in 1999 still "owing AIB around £4,000". He says that he "tried to do a settlement." <hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->



I am sorry for being such a spoilsport, but you don't close an account while still owing £4000! It's not closed until the balance is paid off. My guess, and it's only a guess, is that this guy was hoping that the Bank wouldn't pursue it. 

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote>*Quote:*<hr>  

However, last year an investment policy, which had been assigned to AIB when he took out the loan was partially cashed in to cover his debts, amounting to £5,086 at that stage. He feels hard done by, as this was his "family's security." <hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->



The original dispute was in 1999. AIB would have implemented the Ombudsman's ruling immediately. They didn't cash the policy until 2001 - two years later. 

If the amount was still in dispute, he would have been straight back to the Ombudsman. 

XXFF


----------



## couldntgetausername (23 Aug 2002)

*Banks In Ireland*

Look at Northern Rock as a sign of a successful entrant.

Also it's not exactly easy to switch banks esp. with SO's, DD's credit cards etc. to change. Whilst I agree if you don't move when a better option exists (in the case of NR Deposits) then you can't legimately complain, I believe that the banks here rely on folks staying put because of the aforementioned hassle involved in such a move.

My €.02

C.


----------



## rainyday (23 Aug 2002)

*Re: Banks In Ireland*

Though interestingly, the UK banks have automated the 'moving account' process to make it much simpler for all involved!


----------



## Wings Of Chicken 1 (24 Aug 2002)

*Re: Banks In Ireland*

Hi <!--EZCODE BOLD START-->* rainyday*<!--EZCODE BOLD END-->,

Are you still abroad ?

Interesting that you should mention what the UK banks are up to. The latest - and for me a really useful - development as far as online banking is concerned is through Egg Bank.

From this week, as a Egg Account holder, even if just a Credit Card, you can access all (or most**) of your other online accounts through the Egg website. After initially registering, you don't have to log on and off to all the various finance houses, inserting all your passwords and security responses each time. 

Once you log on to the Egg Bank page, all your current account, saving account, and credit card balances are displayed, no matter which institution they are with.

Wings

<!--EZCODE ITALIC START-->_ ** Not all institutions are yet signed up, but the big ones are.......
·&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Abbey National
·&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp American Express
·&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Ample Interactive Investor
·&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Bank of Scotland
·&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Barclaycard
·&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Barclays Bank
·&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Cahoot
·&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Capital One
·&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Co-operative Bank
·&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Fidelity Investments
·&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp First Direct
·&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp FT Direct
·&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Goldfish
·&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Halifax Banking
·&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp HSBC 
·&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp HSBC Offshore
·&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Intelligent Finance
·&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Lloyds TSB
·&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Marbles
·&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp MBNA NetAccess
·&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Nationwide
·&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp NatWest
·&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Royal Bank of Scotland
·&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Smile Bank
·&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Virgin Money
·&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Woolwich_<!--EZCODE ITALIC END-->


----------



## N0elC (26 Aug 2002)

*Re: Banks In Ireland*

Halifax and Citibank offer a similar facility. 

There are some concerns around data security on these products though.

In general, I believe that Irish banks offer atrocious value for money. I've tried using Banking365 on a number of occasions, and found it to be thoroughly impenetrable. Compared to First Direct in the UK, it is truly in the ha'penny place.

First Direct offers:
* £500 free overdraft facility
* £25 free bonus for opening the account
* Free banking, once you're still inside your overdraft limit.

From what I understand, others in the UK banking industry offer similar packages, which are light years ahead of what's on offer in Ireland.

One can only hope that the opening of the banking markets across Europe will eventually lead to more competition in the Irish retail banking sector forcing banks to offer customers value and good service rather than more excuses.


----------



## toby (1 Sep 2002)

*banks*

I took a mortgage out with a bank which charged me interest twice a year.   After a few years they changed their method, and started charging me four times a year.  I phoned and said this was unfair and was told it made no difference as the interest was just divided by four instead of two.  I pointed out that this compounded the interest and cost me more.  I was told after about five minutes of fobbing, that , well the central bank said we can do this.  I said I didn't say you could.  Have been ignored since.  Have I any right to redress?


----------



## Holdup (30 Sep 2002)

*Banks*

Is it really necessary for a bank(AIB for example)to charge me 17 cent for a LODGEMENT??  I have to pay to give them cash!  Is this standard in Ireland and the continent?


----------



## rainyday (1 Oct 2002)

*Re: Banks*

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote>*Quote:*<hr> Is it really necessary <hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->

Well, probably not, but as they are running a business, then it's understandable that if they can get away with it, they will!

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote>*Quote:*<hr> Is this standard in Ireland <hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->

For most current accounts, Yes. There are a couple of exceptions, notably [broken link removed]


----------

