# Super article on why Dolores Cahill believes what she does



## Brendan Burgess

The Strange Case of Dr. Cahill and Ms. Hyde
					

“If you’re under, like, 70 or 65 and you’ve no underlying conditions, this is all a hoax.” You’d be forgiven for thinking that this wild assertion about a pandemic that has killed over 4.3 million people worldwide and caused sequelae for an untold number of survivors came from someone who knows...



					www.mcgill.ca
				




A very good explanation and very lucidly written 

*Take-home message:*
-Dr. Dolores Cahill is a professor at the School of Medicine of University College Dublin who has consistently spread misinformation about COVID-19, including the myth that children wearing masks would have a lower IQ
-University professors who, during the pandemic, have spread clear and harmful falsehoods about COVID-19 are said to be protected by academic freedom, but there is a tension between this freedom and scholastic rigour
-People with science doctorates and medical degrees are not immune to believing untrue things, being motivated by their values, or failing to properly understand and appraise the scientific literature


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## Purple

Really excellent article Brendan.
We used to defer to priests, now it's a hodgepodge of celebrities and "professionals" who seem to think that being an expert in one field qualifies you to comment on another unrelated area.


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## odyssey06

Purple said:


> Rally excellent article Brendan.
> We used to defer to priests, now it's a hodgepodge of celebrities and "professionals" who seem to think that being an expert in one field qualifies you to comment on another unrelated area.


That was my first thought too.
But this isn't an unrelated area for her, she was more than just a GP\doctor\lecturer. 
With her training and experience she should be better placed than the vast majority to understand and interpret the data.

What jumps out to me is how many of her claims had no foundation in data, or studies etc
People can be wrong for the right reasons i.e. a larger study contradicts a smaller one.
Right for the wrong reasons i.e. a guess turns out to be correct
Right for the right reasons.
And wrong for the wrong reasons, which is what we seem to have with Dolores Cahill.


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## Purple

odyssey06 said:


> That was my first thought too.
> But this isn't an unrelated area for her, she was more than just a GP\doctor\lecturer.
> With her training and experience she should be better placed than the vast majority to understand and interpret the data.
> 
> What jumps out to me is how many of her claims had no foundation in data, or studies etc
> People can be wrong for the right reasons i.e. a larger study contradicts a smaller one.
> Right for the wrong reasons i.e. a guess turns out to be correct
> Right for the right reasons.
> And wrong for the wrong reasons, which is what we seem to have with Dolores Cahill.


People from all walks of like can go a bit nuts. I'm not saying that is the case with Dolores. I'm just making a general point that smart people are just as susceptible to hubris and narcissism and myopic self-delusion as the rest of us. Maybe more so.


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## ClubMan

Purple said:


> People from all walks of like can go a bit nuts. I'm not saying that is the case with Dolores. I'm just making a general point that smart people are just as susceptible to hubris and narcissism and myopic self-delusion as the rest of us. Maybe more so.


The example of Linus Pauling cited in the article is a high profile case in point!
Only ever two time individual Nobel Prize winner and he ended up promoting Vitamin C quackery.


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## odyssey06

Her strange case gets stranger still...

_An arrest warrant has been issued for Irish anti-mask and anti-vaccine campaigner, Dolores Cahill, by a London court.
The live warrant was issued for the arrest of Professor Cahill by Westminster Magistrates Court on August 10 for failure to answer bail in relation to charges of attending an illegal anti-lockdown rally in Trafalgar square in September of last year.
Westminster Magistrates have said a new court date of September 10 has been set for Prof Cahill._









						Arrest warrant issued for Dolores Cahill over alleged illegal anti-lockdown rally
					

The live warrant was issued for the arrest of Professor Cahill by Westminster Magistrates Court on August 10 for failure to answer bail in relation to charges of attending an illegal anti-lockdown rally in Trafalgar square in September of last year




					www.irishexaminer.com


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## Susie2017

The media love doing a hatchet job on Prof Cahill. She is not given any airtime yet people like Luke O Neill who has strong links to big pharma has much airtime as he likes. What has she done or said wrong exactly ? Personally I like to listen to all viewpoints. We are in unprecedented times where the truth is there for everyone to see in plain sight but mass propaganda by media is in full swing 24/7. Where are the excess deaths last year for example? Compared to 2019 or 18 ? What about suicides, missed cancer diagnosis and vaccine related deaths ? How much attention are they getting ? Why do we need vaccine passes when they don’t stop transmission ? Immunity from vaccine is clearly dropping off a cliff after 6 months. What next? Why are we vaccinating kids with a 1/16000 chance of myocarditis when their chance of serious illness from COVID is much less ? Time will tell.


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## Susie2017

Why should we give booster shots when much of the developing world has had none ? Is that not immoral. As Mike Ryan said in recent days like having two life jackets when others have none ??


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## Purple

Susie2017 said:


> Why are we vaccinating kids with a 1/16000 chance of myocarditis


Have you a link to that?

Edit, I found this from the Harvard Medical School.
It's also worth noting that myocarditis is rarely serious and can be caused by numerous things, including Covod19.
There has been no link established between the vaccine and the condition.
I'm sure plenty of women have become pregnant since getting the vaccine but they vaccine didn't cause that either.


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## Purple

Susie2017 said:


> Why should we give booster shots when much of the developing world has had none ? Is that not immoral. As Mike Ryan said in recent days like having two life jackets when others have none ??


Yes, that's exactly what it's like. 
To extend the analogy we are already given lifejackets to everyone here, whether they can swim of not and whether they are in the water or not, while those in the rest of the world who can't swim and are in the water are drowning.


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## Purple

Susie2017 said:


> What has she done or said wrong exactly ?


She's making stuff up and telling lies that are dangerous and will get people killed.
"Big Pharma" is extremely heavily regulated, certainly from a clinical and production side, so being linked to it is a good thing from the point of view of reputational proficiency.


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## Susie2017

Suggest you check out the journal article by Dionne A et al in the August edition of JAMA cardiology ( a reputable publication). The HSE documents quote the above risk, not me. Myocarditis is a serious condition often with long term sequelae. I’m not here to defend Prof Cahill. Her qualifications/ expertise speaks for itself. I will say this. We are very early in this vaccine rollout. The medical profession understands that there is a very long lag in side effect data being reported, validated and subsequently published. Big pharma has rolled out many many medications over the years which have subsequently (after several years in the marketplace) had their licences revoked. It is a very poor media that does not investigate the other side of the coin. There are many reports of adverse reactions on VAERs and elsewhere. Who knows if this vaccine will remain approved into the future? I can’t say. It’s important to keep an open mind. Just on the point of kids wearing masks. My kid had to have speech and language therapy several years ago. Visual face to face contact by me and his therapist (viewing of mouth and tongue operation) was essential to address his treatment. It was emphasised to me verbally and in written letters from the HSE that kids with untreated speech delay do worse at school in the short and long term. Ask any speech and language therapist and I’m quite sure they will confirm that covering children’s faces for long periods of the day would be adverse to their academic development. It’s obvious to me. How would a deaf child manage to learn to lip read ? Prof Cahill makes several valid points worthy of consideration, the Irish media have treated her shamefully IMO.


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## Purple

@Susie2017, nobody is suggesting that vaccines are perfect or that they don't have side effects but there is a subtext to much of the anti-vax stuff that pharmaceutical companies are somehow conspiring to make people unwell or that a vast cohort of scientists, doctors, engineers, technicians and other employees are conspiring to subvert procedures and processes which are in place to ensure products are as safe as possible. Do remember that those same people will take the vaccines, as will their parents, grandparents and children. 

There are negatives to wearing masks and taking vaccines and closing down society and we have to balance those negatives against the greater societal and public health positives. That's the job of the government we elect, advised by the public servants we employ. So far they have got it mostly right. The evidence and the consensus is that the positives derived from vaccines greatly outweigh the risks. 

The evidence presented by Professor Cahill has been debunked by her peers and her students. The predictions she make have been totally incorrect. Therefore I'll go with facts and evidence and the advice of respected public bodies, governments and the vast majority of the experts.


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## Purple

Susie2017 said:


> Suggest you check out the journal article by Dionne A et al in the August edition of JAMA cardiology ( a reputable publication).


Read from the same publication.
_"Finally, it is important to frame concerns about potential vaccine-associated myocarditis within the context of the current pandemic. Infection with SARS-CoV-2 is a clear cause of serious cardiac injury in many patients. The mechanism of injury may be direct infection, an immune-mediated response, or a combination of direct or indirect effects. Prevalence of cardiac injury may be as high as 60% in seriously ill patients. Notably, nearly 1% of highly fit athletes with mild COVID-19 infection have evidence of myocarditis on cMRI., Given that COVID-19 vaccines are remarkably effective at preventing infection, any risk of rare adverse events following immunization must be carefully weighed against the very substantial benefit of vaccination."_


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## Susie2017

It also concludes that the long term outcome of patients with this vaccine induced myocarditis is unclear. How many kids get serious COVID ? In Ireland the maximum number of hospitalised COVID positive children that I have seen is three on any given day. It is very often 0 or 1. There are quite a number of young people presenting with vaccine serious adverse effects enough to write up in reviews like this, there are also other cohorts only recently published. As I said it takes time to get peer reviewed and published. From a medical perspective damaged myocardium cannot repair itself. It leaves behind a scar. That equates to a reduced life expectancy. It would be very unusual for a medicine that causes this side effect in children/young adults to be left on the market unchanged, IMO. Despite the remarkable impetus behind the vaccine strategy the long term data are still outstanding and it is only with a long passage of time that the full list of adverse effects will be elucidated. Immunity is dropping quickly after 6 months yet the language is vaccine ‘breakthrough’ not failure. Like it or not it’s production was rushed bypassing the usual safety protocols. Details on pharmacokinetics / biodistribution are unclear to me. Can anyone answer how long the mRNA remains in the body producing spike proteins for instance ? Does it vary between individuals ? There are many well qualified experts online with cautious views. Some respected Drs are banned from YouTube and Facebook despite their immunology/vaccinology/ICU experience/ qualifications/ lack of vested interest etc. Social media is nowadays telling us who is right and who is wrong. The Taliban are allowed on Twitter but Trump is banned. Strange times we are living in.


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## deanpark

Susie2017 said:


> It also concludes that the long term outcome of patients with this vaccine induced myocarditis is unclear. How many kids get serious COVID ? In Ireland the maximum number of hospitalised COVID positive children that I have seen is three on any given day. It is very often 0 or 1. There are quite a number of young people presenting with vaccine serious adverse effects enough to write up in reviews like this, there are also other cohorts only recently published. As I said it takes time to get peer reviewed and published. From a medical perspective damaged myocardium cannot repair itself. It leaves behind a scar. That equates to a reduced life expectancy. It would be very unusual for a medicine that causes this side effect in children/young adults to be left on the market unchanged, IMO. Despite the remarkable impetus behind the vaccine strategy the long term data are still outstanding and it is only with a long passage of time that the full list of adverse effects will be elucidated. Immunity is dropping quickly after 6 months yet the language is vaccine ‘breakthrough’ not failure. Like it or not it’s production was rushed bypassing the usual safety protocols. Details on pharmacokinetics / biodistribution are unclear to me. Can anyone answer how long the mRNA remains in the body producing spike proteins for instance ? Does it vary between individuals ? There are many well qualified experts online with cautious views. Some respected Drs are banned from YouTube and Facebook despite their immunology/vaccinology/ICU experience/ qualifications/ lack of vested interest etc. Social media is nowadays telling us who is right and who is wrong. The Taliban are allowed on Twitter but Trump is banned. Strange times we are living in.


Very hard to follow this. Maybe break up the text a bit?


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## deanpark

And the one point I could make sense of -  I'm delighted that Trump and nutters like him banned on twitter.


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## Purple

deanpark said:


> Very hard to follow this. Maybe break up the text a bit?


We'd be veering into a medical discussion but a few minutes on Google will show that the concerns are largely unfounded and that vaccinating children is to protect other people as much or more that to protect the children. 
The reduced speed limit outside schools isn't to protect my car from damage if I hit a child, although thankfully it also has that effect. Similarly vaccinating children is to protect the wider community and create that heard immunity we keep hearing about.


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## Susie2017

Children should not be vaccinated to protect adults with a vaccine that is still EUA, without full long term data. They should not take the hit for the elderly and most would not want them to. It would be unethical, probably immoral in my view to expect them to do this. As it is still EUA the ethical thing to do would be to use it on vulnerable children i.e at risk of severe disease. Vaccinating then without documenting the necessity is also questionable when many of them will already have antibodies. Herd immunity will not happen with the current coronavirus vaccines as they do not stop carriage or transmission. That has been acknowledged by Prof Pollard Oxford/AZ in an interview last week as well as many others. Vaccines should be given instead to older vulnerable adults in low income countries. As advocated by Dr Ryan WHO. I gather there has been a death this week of a young 23 year old gentleman reportedly after a vaccine in Ireland. I haven't seen it reported on mainstream media yet, so cannot confirm (?why). If that has happened then that is a catastrophe for him and his family. The roll out of the vaccine in the young cohort should be at least reviewed urgently with a view to doing no further harm. All IMO.


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## odyssey06

Susie2017 said:


> I gather there has been a death this week of a young 23 year old gentleman reportedly after a vaccine in Ireland. I haven't seen it reported on mainstream media yet, so cannot confirm (?why). If that has happened then that is a catastrophe for him and his family. The roll out of the vaccine in the young cohort should be at least reviewed urgently with a view to doing no further harm. All IMO.


If you can't confirm it don't post it especially when it could easily be scurrilous nonsense.


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## Sophrosyne

Susie2017 said:


> Social media is nowadays telling us who is right and who is wrong.



I think that says it all.


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## Susie2017

Very sadly the death notice is on rip.ie. It is heartbreaking to read. There are many medications that have been removed from the marketplace even post full authorisation. Vaccines generally take at least 5 years to fully develop. Unfortunately I think it is not possible for individuals to truly have proper informed consent when the side effect profile and risks are still clearly evolving. A safe medicine should not do this to a patient. Iatrogenic death is to be taken very seriously and should not be glossed over. I see a mainstream outlet reporting it as a ‘short illness’. The public deserve to hear the truth. Openness and transparency around the side effect rates/profile when this is still an EUA product /situation should be presented. It’s more important than the daily case numbers. Side effect rates shouldn’t be left unreported or unquestioned by media.


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## odyssey06

Susie2017 said:


> Very sadly the death notice is on rip.ie. It is heartbreaking to read. There are many medications that have been removed from the marketplace even post full authorisation. Vaccines generally take at least 5 years to fully develop. Unfortunately I think it is not possible for individuals to truly have proper informed consent when the side effect profile and risks are still clearly evolving. A safe medicine should not do this to a patient. Iatrogenic death is to be taken very seriously and should not be glossed over. I see a mainstream outlet reporting it as a ‘short illness’. The public deserve to hear the truth. Openness and transparency around the side effect rates/profile when this is still an EUA product /situation should be presented. It’s more important than the daily case numbers. Side effect rates shouldn’t be left unreported or unquestioned by media.


You talk of openness and transparency and you deal in innuendo. Why are you being so deliberately vague and filling your post with clickbait sentences?

We won't get the truth from you with these deliberatey vague posts with zero foundation or support. A death notice is up on rip.ie? Seriously?

You ought to be ashmed of yourself with this ghoulish post.

Even a safe medicine\procudure\operation can have tragic consequences in a tiny number of people. That you post nonsense like "a safe medicine should not do this to a patient" shows you have no idea what you are talking about. You seem to have to have copied and pasted rubbish from Facebook without any comprehension of it.


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## Susie2017

I don’t think my posts are vague at all. The information is there. I don’t use Facebook. You are wrong I’m afraid. A vaccine or medicine should not cause deaths within days and have a serious side effect profile like these do. Drug side effects are rarely life threatening. Myocarditis, VITTs, GBS etc. It would not be permitted to be used under any circumstance historically. Take the case of the antihistamine known as Triludan. I recall a relative using it daily for many years without any issue. Then it was discovered that it caused QT abnormalities (an ECG problem) which could potentially lead to an abnormal heart rhythm. It was subsequently removed from the market after around 5 years full approval. It happens all the time with medications. Scrutinise the yellow card/VAERS data on these so called vaccines. The death/serious side effect rate after them raises serious questions. Just because I raise them doesn’t mean I’m ghoulish or anti vaccine. Patient safety should come first. That is the cornerstone of good medical practice.


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## odyssey06

Susie2017 said:


> I don’t think my posts are vague at all. The information is there. I don’t use Facebook. You are wrong I’m afraid. A vaccine or medicine should not cause deaths within days and have a serious side effect profile like these do. Drug side effects are rarely life threatening. Myocarditis, VITTs, GBS etc. It would not be permitted to be used under any circumstance historically. Take the case of the antihistamine known as Triludan. I recall a relative using it daily for many years without any issue. Then it was discovered that it caused QT abnormalities (an ECG problem) which could potentially lead to an abnormal heart rhythm. It was subsequently removed from the market after around 5 years full approval. It happens all the time with medications. Scrutinise the yellow card/VAERS data on these so called vaccines. The death/serious side effect rate after them raises serious questions. Just because I raise them doesn’t mean I’m ghoulish or anti vaccine. Patient safety should come first. That is the cornerstone of good medical practice.


Your posts are delibertately vague exercises in misdirection. When challenged about providing a source for your claims you pivot to a totally different claim (and medication) because you can't substantiate your previous claims. The obvious tactic of someone spreading lies and misinformation.

So, you are clearly spreading anti vax disinformation and your response to whatever tragedy that befell the young individual was ghoulish... "the death notice is on RIP"? What death notice? Of whom? And what could it remotely prove? So why post it except as an exercise in spreading scurrilous rumours.

You are copying and posting utter nonsense from some social media source, without having the undertsanding to filter it, whether it's Facebook is neither here not there. Wheverer you are getting your information from, it is clearly and obviously an anti vax propaganda site.

VAERS data tracked reported side effects post vaccine. Classic anti vax tactic.
It says nothing about whether the vaccine caused the side effect.
Were you ever aware of this?

Vaccines are highly unlikely to cause long term issues, they are fundamentally different in mechanism to medications taken continuously.








						Vaccines are highly unlikely to cause side effects long after getting the shot
					

Science shows that even the most serious side effects for any vaccine, including COVID-19, occur within just a few weeks.




					www.nationalgeographic.com


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## Susie2017

The death of the 23 year old gentleman is not difficult to find. Out of respect I’m not going to name him. I am not antivax whatsoever, in fact I have had more vaccinations than most. In recent weeks I took pneumovax. How many other readers have taken it ? Im looking at VAERs and yellow card data. These are reports sent by Drs/ nurses who actually have a high threshold to report, often simply because they don’t have the time to do so. Side effects of all medications are actually markedly under reported - that is a well recognised international phenomenon. How can you say vaccines are not likely to cause long term effects ? Narcolepsy and the swine flu jab is the most recent example. It was also called safe before it was eventually withdrawn. Targeting me in a personal capacity for simply raising concerns does not reflect well. This discussion which personally targeted Prof Cahill was most unkind in my view. Anyone who reads her CV and experience in proteomics, antibodies, vaccine development and immunology would not write her views off entirely. Her in depth experience/ appointments deserve at least modicum of respect. I have only looked at one or two of her videos but she comes across as a person of integrity. There is too much unkindness in the world. We don’t need anymore. All IMO.


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## odyssey06

Susie2017 said:


> The death of the 23 year old gentleman is not difficult to find. Out of respect I’m not going to name him. I am not antivax whatsoever, in fact I have had more vaccinations than most. In recent weeks I took pneumovax. How many other readers have taken it ? Im looking at VAERs and yellow card data. These are reports sent by Drs/ nurses who actually have a high threshold to report, often simply because they don’t have the time to do so. Side effects of all medications are actually markedly under reported - that is a well recognised international phenomenon. How can you say vaccines are not likely to cause long term effects ? Narcolepsy and the swine flu jab is the most recent example. It was also called safe before it was eventually withdrawn. Targeting me in a personal capacity for simply raising concerns does not reflect well. This discussion which personally targeted Prof Cahill was most unkind in my view. Anyone who reads her CV and experience in proteomics, antibodies, vaccine development and immunology would not write her views off entirely. Her in depth experience/ appointments deserve at least modicum of respect. I have only looked at one or two of her videos but she comes across as a person of integrity. There is too much unkindness in the world. We don’t need anymore. All IMO.


Why should we have to find it?
It is your claim. It is up to you to provide substantiation for it, or else as far as anyone else is concerned it could be scurrilous rumours. And theres a lot of false claims about, we have seen a lot of it from Dolores Cahill... her experience didnt prevent her from making repeated unfounded claims about covid which have been shown to be demonstably false.
I have zero confidence in her Intellectual integrity when it comes to validating her claims.

Your claims about VAERS are false. Something being logged on VAERS means it ocurred post vaccination. Much further analysis is needed to determine whether there was an actual link to the vaccine.

I posted a link explaining why issues with vaccines manifest soon after vaccination.
Did you read it?

All medicines have side effects. It does not make them unsafe necessarily it is about the balance of risk v reward.

You are getting your claims from anti vax sites and posting them here without due diligence on them.


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## Sophrosyne

Susie2017 said:


> Im looking at VAERs and yellow card data. These are reports sent by Drs/ nurses who actually have a high threshold to report, often simply because they don’t have the time to do so.


Members of the public may also submit reports.

Several groups and organizations are making spurious claims based on this data, but their claims have been debunked.


See this fact check from Reuters, whose verdicts is:

“Missing context. Reports made to the Yellow Card Scheme are not proof of a definitive causal link to a vaccine. They are instead a suspicion that might well be coincidental.”


See also this from First Draft entitled “How to stop misinformation related to the US vaccine database”:

“Mis- and disinformation about Covid-19 vaccines based on the VAERS database has traveled internationally. First Draft researchers have recorded false narratives citing VAERS reports on just about every platform, including mainstream social media such as Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and TikTok, fringe messaging apps such as Telegram and video platforms including YouTube and BitChute. Problematic claims about Covid-19 vaccines leaning on VAERS’ credibility have also been published in online articles and broadcast on television.

These narratives and claims have been shared in multiple languages, such as English and Spanish, and in countries from the US to France to Australia, highlighting their virality and global impact. An example of reach: One video posted on Telegram in January of a person using the VAERS website to describe Covid-19 “vaccine deaths” had been viewed some 220,000 times as of July 14.

*“VAERS is not designed to determine whether a vaccine causes an adverse event.” On their own, these reports cannot be used to determine whether a vaccine caused or contributed to an illness or death, nor can they be used to reach conclusions about the “existence, severity, frequency, or rates of problems associated with vaccines.”*


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## Susie2017

To say that people are submitting false report cards is dubious. Why would someone do that ? To say that the majority of effects are unrelated is also incorrect. The vast majority of reports are submitted by medical professionals in their line of work. They would not submit them without a very high index of suspicion as to causality. They know they may be asked to supply other supportive data down the road in writing. This generates work and hassle. It would be accepted in the medical profession that side effects are hugely underreported. Not the opposite. Of course the conclusions from these investigations are a quite a way off yet. A person who died from a vaccine side effect early this year may not have that reported until late this year and so on.


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## Sophrosyne

It is not the data that is the problem, it is _some _people drawing nonsensical and overreaching conclusions from it.

It is like evaluating a process before it is finished.

People are asked to submit reports even if they only suspect that the vaccine may have caused the adverse reaction. 
The mere existence of a adverse reaction report does not mean that the _vaccine_ caused the suspected reaction.

The Yellow Card and VAERS data is just stage 1. 

Both of these systems are followed up by detailed analysis of the events reported and it is that analysis that is authoritative.

In the UK the analysis is carried out by The Medicines & Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency and in the US, the Centres for Disease Control & Prevention (CDC). Both issue regular reports.


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## Brendan Burgess

It's interesting to compare the respectful attitude of   with the  disrespectful  attitude of Jennifer O'Connell 









						Jennifer O’Connell:  final breath volte-faces of #covidiots serve as cautionary tales
					

Stories  feed something ugly in our psyches, the idea that there are good and bad victims of the virus




					www.irishtimes.com


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## Purple

Susie2017 said:


> To say that people are submitting false report cards is dubious. Why would someone do that ?


Do you understand how scientific data is collected, filtered, verified collated before it actually becomes useful?
People might submit reports that they believe to be correct, they might be vexatious, they might be idiots, they might by anti-vaxers fighting Bill Gates and big Pharma and the Illuminati and the Lizard People. Two or more people might submit the same report. Publicly accessible portals are not sound sources of reliable data. My 11 year old could tell you that. 

"Medicines" is a very broad term. Vaccines are different and more specific. She could also tell you that.


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## EmmDee

CDC have reported on VAERS reporting on adolescents up to July 31st. They found none of the deaths to be the result of myocarditis and that there was no evidence of a causal relationship between the vaccine and any of the deaths.

That's a testing sample of 9 million adolescents vaccinated - analyzed by people who know what they are talking about.


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## Susie2017

No need to be rude or insulting. I know the system. Look at old hpra reviews. The bulk of adverse events are reported by the medical profession. We are a long way off from seeing the full data on these medicines.


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## Purple

Susie2017 said:


> No need to be rude or insulting. I know the system.


If you do then why are you posting in the manner you are doing?


Susie2017 said:


> he bulk of adverse events are reported by the medical profession.


So what? Correlation does not equal causality.


Susie2017 said:


> We are a long way off from seeing the full data on these medicines.


Yes we are but so far all the evidence suggests that the mRNA vaccines are even more effective than expected and very safe. As has been outlined by other posters vaccines are not like other medicines. They are not taken over a long period of time and are designed to provoke an immune response, nothing else.


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## ClubMan

Brendan Burgess said:


> It's interesting to compare the respectful attitude of   with the  disrespectful  attitude of Jennifer O'Connell


Respectful attitude of whom?


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## tomdublin

The question is not whether some people will die after receiving the vaccine.  We know that sadly an extremely tiny minority of people will, and that this probably involves causality rather than just correlation. However, this has to be compared against the risk of NOT getting vaccinated, which appears to be hundreds if not thousands of times higher (even for those population groups for which in absolute terms the danger of serious Corvid complications is still quite small).  Based on those figures I made an informed decision to accept the risk of getting vaccinated.  I think that a problem with some of the sceptics is an inability to understand relative risk, though this clearly should not apply to Professor Cahill.


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## demoivre

I didn't see much of Dolores over the last 18 months but it's hard to see how her musings will cause as much damage as the people I saw on the News every day and who's advice caused carnage in care homes, caused mass unemployment, put huge pressure on CAMHS, cancelled cancer screenings ETC . All for a virus with a tiny CFR, a median age at death of 83, the majority of whom had co morbidities, and generally there has been no change in the death rate over the last 10 years. In the main the people who have died from Covid are elderly , frail people who would normally succumb to the flu and other respiratory illnesses. 

I suppose it's all about the post viral fatigue now which apparently is worse than long flu.

On a slightly different note I'm feeling unbelievably well today. Suppose I should go for a PCR test to tell me I have a virus that won't give me, or the majority of people, as much as a sniffle !!


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## Purple

demoivre said:


> I didn't see much of Dolores over the last 18 months but it's hard to see how her musings will cause as much damage as the people I saw on the News every day and who's advice caused carnage in care homes, caused mass unemployment, put huge pressure on CAMHS, cancelled cancer screenings ETC . All for a virus with a tiny CFR, a median age at death of 83, the majority of whom had co morbidities, and generally there has been no change in the death rate over the last 10 years. In the main the people who have died from Covid are elderly , frail people who would normally succumb to the flu and other respiratory illnesses.


Yes, Covid19 may, in the vast majority of cases, be no more than Nature giving a gentle shove in an inevitable direction and yes, the in the longer term our reaction might be a less extreme version of the reaction to the Fukushima meltdown where one person died from radiation and 2,200 died from the evacuation even though all the experts have said that the radiation levels were and are so low they pose no danger to human health. In the aftermath the world turned away from Nuclear power, the only viable form of Green Energy. The disaster wasn't a disaster but the reaction to it was.
Most of what we've don't in reaction to Covid was correct. We certainly should wear masks and get the vaccine but the longer term impacts on education, mental and physical health and the economy (which pays for all the welfare and supports society needs) are yet to be fully understood.


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## ClubMan

Controversial pandemic campaigner Dolores Cahill no longer employed at UCD
					

Dolores Cahill had been a professor at the UCD faculty of Medicine.




					www.thejournal.ie


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## pauliesbowl

I would like to draw attention to Dolores's myth that masks reduce IQs in developing brains - we know brains need oxygen and we know masks restrict oxygen so why is it a myth that wearing one for a number of hours a day will hamper the development of the brain?


----------



## ClubMan

pauliesbowl said:


> I would like to draw attention to Dolores's myth that masks reduce IQs in developing brains - we know brains need oxygen and we know masks restrict oxygen so why is it a myth that wearing one for a number of hours a day will hamper the development of the brain?







__





						Does the prolonged use of face-masks by HCWs interfere with the respiratory system by inducing oxidative stress and blood oxygen/carbon dioxide imbalance? - HLI (Health Library Ireland)
					

DOWNLOAD FULL SUMMARY OF EVIDENCE (PDF) The following information resources have been selected by the National Health Library and Knowledge Service Evidence Virtual Team in response to your question. The resources are listed in our estimated order of relevance to practicing healthcare...




					hselibrary.ie


----------



## Leo

pauliesbowl said:


> and we know masks restrict oxygen


We're so long into the Covid journey at this point, how are you still falling for the long-disproven myths?

Masks restrict virus particles which tend to be in the .25 to 4μm range, oxygen is 152pm, huge difference! Think of a grid designed to stop double decker busses, how many grains of sand do you think that would block?

Pulse oximeters are cheap, and even built in to many phones. if in doubt get your hands on one, wear a mask and observe how there is no change in your blood oxygen saturation levels.


----------



## pauliesbowl

I have tried that experiment and after a few hours my oxygen levels are down by about 6%.

All you have to do is look at clubman's link from the HSE where in the third point the WHO confirms that masks "may reduce the ability to breath comfortably" which btw directly contradicts the second point which claims that "wearing a mask has no effect on exercise performance".

Tbf I shouldn't even be referring to that link as it's nonsensically contradicting itself all over the place. This isn't complicated though - putting a cloth over your mouth will most certainly affect your ability to breath unless the mesh size is considerable, which it isn't.


----------



## EmmDee

pauliesbowl said:


> I have tried that experiment and after a few hours my oxygen levels are down by about 6%.



Not that I don't believe you but 6% drop in blood oxygen levels would be close to hospitalisation. There are also multiple published trials showing blood oxygen levels don't drop. So if you hadn't passed out, I'd suggest you check the equipment.

The myth is nonsense - the level of oxygen depravation on developing brains needs to be significant - and during developmental times for the brain. A mask on an adolescent / adult doesn't meet either criteria. If you wanted to support this myth you would have to explain away the many professions where mask wearing is standard with no effect. Or explain how masks reduce oxygen levels more than high altitude living - say Mexico. The proposition would need to be that masks reduce oxygen levels to the point where people would actually pass out.


----------



## pauliesbowl

Ok great so we're in agreement at least that masks do in fact reduce the ability to breathe but you reckon that it's not enough to matter, could you point me to your source on that?

I like that you identified that this would need to happen during the developmental stage of the brain as that's what Dolores was referring to so we know we're over the target in some sense I suppose and most certainly not in crackpot territory.. So weird that people refer to her as a nut-job when she seems like such a logical thinker, I mean we're talking about a tenured professor here with decades in the field making logical arguments and people are losing their minds - what is going on? It's hardly people with some sort of an agenda telling gullible people how to think is it? And then those gullible people basically forming mobs and bullying dissenters? Surely it couldn't be that? I mean I know the vax manufacturers are making ridiculous profits off this whole thing but that's surely just a coincidence and it's not like there's any precedent for them engaging in shady business practices, right?


EmmDee said:


> Not that I don't believe you but 6% drop in blood oxygen levels would be close to hospitalisation. There are also multiple published trials showing blood oxygen levels don't drop. So if you hadn't passed out, I'd suggest you check the equipment.
> 
> The myth is nonsense - the level of oxygen depravation on developing brains needs to be significant - and during developmental times for the brain. A mask on an adolescent / adult doesn't meet either criteria. If you wanted to support this myth you would have to explain away the many professions where mask wearing is standard with no effect. Or explain how masks reduce oxygen levels more than high altitude living - say Mexico. The proposition would need to be that masks reduce oxygen levels to the point where people would actually pass out.


----------



## EmmDee

pauliesbowl said:


> Ok great so we're in agreement at least that masks do in fact reduce the ability to breathe but you reckon that it's not enough to matter, could you point me to your source on that?
> 
> I like that you identified that this would need to happen during the developmental stage of the brain as that's what Dolores was referring to so we know we're over the target in some sense I suppose and most certainly not in crackpot territory.. So weird that people refer to her as a nut-job when she seems like such a logical thinker, I mean we're talking about a tenured professor here with decades in the field making logical arguments and people are losing their minds - what is going on? It's hardly people with some sort of an agenda telling gullible people how to think is it? And then those gullible people basically forming mobs and bullying dissenters? Surely it couldn't be that? I mean I know the vax manufacturers are making ridiculous profits off this whole thing but that's surely just a coincidence and it's not like there's any precedent for them engaging in shady business practices, right?



I think you misunderstand me - I don't agree that masks reduce the ability to breath normally. Yes I do think it is crackpot territory. I think she is a crack pot - someone who has in the past been logical but then lost the plot somewhere. Remember - GO'D at one point was a decent investigative journalist but went off the rails. Similar issue here. Her own students rebutted her claims if I recall.

I was quoting your post on the developmental question. I'm not going to go around digging out sources - just as I'm not going to dig sources to validate the earth is round. Feel free to do a simple google search. This is an extraordinary claim which is counter to what has been going on for years with no issues; the extra-ordinary claim requires the sourcing - not the denial


----------



## pauliesbowl

Just so that we're all on the same page here I suggest everyone wiki "list of largest pharmaceutical settlements" as I feel like the majority of people are oblivious to this data. 
Kickbacks all over the shop and making false and misleading claims on safety, these guys are dirtier than tobacco imo.


----------



## Leo

pauliesbowl said:


> the WHO confirms that masks "may reduce the ability to breath comfortably"


Yeah, with the heat build up and condensation forming in the mask, it can get a little itchy or cause mild irritation to the skin. So it is a little less comfortable. Of course that does not in any way suggest any oxygen depravation. 


pauliesbowl said:


> What is going on? It's hardly people with some sort of an agenda telling gullible people how to think is it? And then those gullible people basically forming mobs and bullying dissenters? Surely it couldn't be that?


Yes, you're right. This is all a massive global conspiracy of at least hundreds of thousands of medical professionals all in on the faking of multiple studies all so a small few people in the pharma companies can earn a bigger bonus!


----------



## Firefly

Waiting for the first mention of Bill Gates


----------



## pauliesbowl

EmmDee said:


> I think you misunderstand me - I don't agree that masks reduce the ability to breath normally. Yes I do think it is crackpot territory. I think she is a crack pot - someone who has in the past been logical but then lost the plot somewhere. Remember - GO'D at one point was a decent investigative journalist but went off the rails. Similar issue here. Her own students rebutted her claims if I recall.
> 
> I was quoting your post on the developmental question. I'm not going to go around digging out sources - just as I'm not going to dig sources to validate the earth is round. Feel free to do a simple google search. This is an extraordinary claim which is counter to what has been going on for years with no issues; the extra-ordinary claim requires the sourcing - not the denial


Oh I'm sorry my mistake, I thought that because you said that the level of oxygen deprivation would have to be significant that you were conceding that deprivation was in fact occurring but just not at a significant enough level to cause harm.
When you say GO'D went off the rails you mean in your opinion yes? You're kinda presenting it as fact.

I don't think the WHO's claim that masks interfere with breathing is extraordinary, if I'm being honest I feel like your claim that it's not to a sufficient degree to harm young brains is the extraordinary one tbh and if you're going to make it you should back it up with your source imo but if you're too busy then that's fine obviously.


----------



## time to plan

pauliesbowl said:


> I have tried that experiment and after a few hours my oxygen levels are down by about 6%.


What is the p value of that study, and did you use a control group?


----------



## pauliesbowl

Leo said:


> Yeah, with the heat build up and condensation forming in the mask, it can get a little itchy or cause mild irritation to the skin. So it is a little less comfortable. Of course that does not in any way suggest any oxygen depravation.
> 
> Yes, you're right. This is all a massive global conspiracy of at least hundreds of thousands of medical professionals all in on the faking of multiple studies all so a small few people in the pharma companies can earn a bigger bonus!


Eh hundreds of thousands of medical professionals all in on it is literally the finding of all the cases, that's how kick backs work.


----------



## time to plan

pauliesbowl said:


> I have tried that experiment and after a few hours my oxygen levels are down by about 6%.
> 
> All you have to do is look at clubman's link from the HSE where in the third point the WHO confirms that masks "may reduce the ability to breath comfortably" which btw directly contradicts the second point which claims that "wearing a mask has no effect on exercise performance".
> 
> Tbf I shouldn't even be referring to that link as it's nonsensically contradicting itself all over the place. This isn't complicated though - putting a cloth over your mouth will most certainly affect your ability to breath unless the mesh size is considerable, which it isn't.


Do you not think it odd that the WHO can't spell 'breathe'?


----------



## time to plan

Firefly said:


> Waiting for the first mention of Bill Gates


You just did it. Must be the nano-mind chip.


----------



## EmmDee

pauliesbowl said:


> When you say GO'D went off the rails you mean in your opinion yes? You're kinda presenting it as fact.



I'm "kinda" supported by any court she has brought her claims to. I'm too busy to provide sources for a GO'D supporter


----------



## pauliesbowl

Firefly said:


> Waiting for the first mention of Bill Gates


Look don't be silly, the fact that Bill Gates is the second largest donor to the WHO after the US is coincidental at best but to then try and link that fact to the fact that the WHO is controlling the pandemic is simply conspiracy nonsense.
Let me very clear here - the massive donations Gates makes to the WHO have zero bearing on their policy decisions which in turn have zero bearing on how countries like us follow those decisions and any suggestion to the contrary is just conspiracy nonsense.
And we know that conspiracies don't happen because the list of them that I just linked on wiki proves that, oh no wait it proves that they happen all the time.


----------



## pauliesbowl

EmmDee said:


> I'm "kinda" supported by any court she has brought her claims to. I'm too busy to provide sources for a GO'D supporter


She won her claim re Denis O'Brien no?


----------



## EmmDee

pauliesbowl said:


> She won her claim re Denis O'Brien no?



The discussion is specifically about Coronavirus and related topics - this is the usual tactic of the conspiracy types; when presented with facts change the topic and try to divert to something else


----------



## pauliesbowl

EmmDee said:


> The discussion is specifically about Coronavirus and related topics - this is the usual tactic of the conspiracy types; when presented with facts change the topic and try to divert to something else


Eh you claimed her losing court cases was proof she went off the rails and I referred to her not losing a case and you're attempting to frame that as changing the subject? And this coming from someone who brought GO'D into the discussion as a way of avoiding the provision of sources for their assertions ? I'm confused.

I'm noticing how some are descending into pedantry and ad hominems rather than addressing the issues we're discussing, interesting.

Try and keep it clean please even if it contradicts the narrative you're working off, these are important things we're discussing and it's important that we get to the bottom of them as children are at risk and they are our future so in a way we're all at risk.


----------



## time to plan

Leo said:


> Yeah, with the heat build up and condensation forming in the mask, it can get a little itchy or cause mild irritation to the skin. So it is a little less comfortable. Of course that does not in any way suggest any oxygen depravation.


Indeed. And the relevant WHO guidance related to use of face masks during physical activity, which Pauliesbowl neglected to mention. The evidence underpinning this (pasted from relevant WHO document) is below. You will note the final sentence, which is specifically about facemasks, rather than about respirators.



> Evidence
> There are limited studies on the benefits and harms of wearing medical masks, respirators and non-medical masks while exercising. Several studies have demonstrated statistically significant deleterious effects on various cardiopulmonary physiologic parameters during mild to moderate exercise in healthy subjects and in those with underlying respiratory diseases (134-140). The most significant impacts have been consistently associated with the use of respirators and in persons with underlying obstructive airway pulmonary diseases such as asthma and chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD), especially when the condition is moderate to severe (136). Facial microclimate changes with increased temperature, humidity and perceptions of dyspnoea were also reported in some studies on the use of masks during exercise (134, 141). A recent review found negligeable evidence of negative effects of mask use during exercise but noted concern for individuals with severe cardiopulmonary disease (142).


----------



## pauliesbowl

"There are limited studies on the... harms of wearing facemasks" - what am I missing here?


----------



## pauliesbowl

I must say I'm impressed that we're allowed even have this discussion in an online forum, most media outlets have been paid to promote the official narrative and so don't even allow dissenting discussion and simply ban those who question the narrative. Speaks volumes about the integrity of this forum that they allow open discussion here imo.


----------



## RedOnion

pauliesbowl said:


> I have tried that experiment and after a few hours my oxygen levels are down by about 6%.


You're supposed to use a mask, not a plastic bag!


----------



## time to plan

pauliesbowl said:


> "There are limited studies on the... harms of wearing facemasks" - what am I missing here?


What do you believe that summary of evidence says about the effect of wearing facemasks on oxygen saturation?


----------



## time to plan

pauliesbowl said:


> I must say I'm impressed that we're allowed even have this discussion in an online forum, most media outlets have been paid to promote the official narrative and so don't even allow dissenting discussion and simply ban those who question the narrative. Speaks volumes about the integrity of this forum that they allow open discussion here imo.


Who is paying these media outlets to promote the official narrative?


----------



## Ceist Beag

pauliesbowl said:


> "There are limited studies on the... harms of wearing facemasks" - what am I missing here?


I would say you're missing any credible evidence that wearing a mask impacts brain development...


----------



## time to plan

Ceist Beag said:


> I would say you're missing any credible evidence that wearing a mask impacts brain development…


It was a bad sign when WHO guidance was referenced as if it was evidence.


----------



## time to plan

Brendan Burgess said:


> …children wearing masks would have a lower IQ


So after all that, can anyone offer any evidence that children wearing masks would have a lower IQ?


----------



## seamus m

Why are the vaccinated so worried about the unvaccinated it should be other way around and anyone who thinks long term wearing of masks isn't in any way damaging to our health must live in Dublin City  or similar


----------



## odyssey06

seamus m said:


> Why are the vaccinated so worried about the unvaccinated it should be other way around and anyone who thinks long term wearing of masks isn't in any way damaging to our health must live in Dublin City  or similar


Not sure what Dublin has to do with anything... are there so few medical staff in Dublin because they of the damaging health effects of masks in their day to day duties over previous decades???
Nope because there arent any except for some cases of dry mouth and bad breath.

Covid on the other hand kills, hospitalises and can cause long term issues in some people even after recovery.


----------



## seamus m

Its


odyssey06 said:


> Not sure what Dublin has to do with anything... are there so few medical staff in Dublin because they of the damaging health effects of masks in their day to day duties over previous decades???
> Nope because there arent any except for some cases of dry mouth and bad breath.
> 
> Covid on the other hand kills, hospitalises and can cause long term issues in some people even after recovery.


Fresh air or lack of it is the Dublin thing.Thinking you know better one way or the other is the annoying  thing.


----------



## odyssey06

seamus m said:


> Its
> 
> Fresh air or lack of it is the Dublin thing.Thinking you know better one way or the other is the annoying  thing.


The air in shops outside Dublin isnt any fresher when it comes to Covid than the air inside shops in Dublin.

This isnt a Dublin thing whatever nonsense that is.

Its coming from the CDC, WHO and its not thinking you know better. Its doing what your experience and training and expertise has prepared you to do.

But yet you think you know better than them without any justification offered... just 'Dublin'? Very convincing.

Would you die or let yourself be treated in a Dublin hospital? Or object because the doctor thinks he knows better how to treat you?


----------



## seamus m

odyssey06 said:


> The air in shops outside Dublin isnt any fresher when it comes to Covid than the air inside shops in Dublin.
> 
> This isnt a Dublin thing whatever nonsense that is.
> 
> Its coming from the CDC, WHO and its not thinking you know better. Its doing what your experience and training and expertise has prepared you to do.
> 
> But yet you think you know better than them without any justification offered... just 'Dublin'? Very convincing.
> 
> Would you die or let yourself be treated in a Dublin hospital? Or object because the doctor thinks he knows better how to treat you?


Country Air as opposed city air ,no difference?I don't need much training to sell that.I expect the doctor to do what he's paid for and the hospital the service its meant to no more no less


----------



## ClubMan

seamus m said:


> Why are the vaccinated so worried about the unvaccinated


Because the unvaccinated are at higher risk of being infected and passing it on. Vaccinated people can still get it you know. Herd immunity 101.


----------



## seamus m

ClubMan said:


> Because the unvaccinated are at higher risk of being infected and passing it on. Vaccinated people can still get it you know. Herd immunity 101.


Therein  lies the rub .Maybe everyone should just be left make up their own minds.


----------



## Ceist Beag

seamus m said:


> Therein  lies the rub .Maybe everyone should just be left make up their own minds.


If they are left to make up their own minds (which they are!), then let them at the very least be well informed minds. Not some rubbish like "long term wearing of masks is damaging to our health".


----------



## ClubMan

seamus m said:


> Therein  lies the rub .Maybe everyone should just be left make up their own minds.


They are.


----------



## seamus m

ClubMan said:


> They are.


No they are trying  to lead by regulations.


----------



## Leo

seamus m said:


> No they are trying  to lead by regulations.


They're just doing what good governments are supposed to do and legislate to protect the majority. Like vaccinations, there is zero doubt that speed limits and drink-driving legislation have saved many lives. I presume you'd prefer if we scrapped that legislation and everyone was just allowed to make up their own minds...until of course it's someone you care about who suffers.


----------



## Purple

pauliesbowl said:


> Look don't be silly, the fact that Bill Gates is the second largest donor to the WHO after the US is coincidental at best but to then try and link that fact to the fact that the WHO is controlling the pandemic is simply conspiracy nonsense.
> Let me very clear here - the massive donations Gates makes to the WHO have zero bearing on their policy decisions which in turn have zero bearing on how countries like us follow those decisions and any suggestion to the contrary is just conspiracy nonsense.
> And we know that conspiracies don't happen because the list of them that I just linked on wiki proves that, oh no wait it proves that they happen all the time.


I am appalled by the lack of influence I now find I have over the decisions made about the developing world after all those Trocaire boxes I filled and Concern fasts I did.

The strange thing is that all those smart people running the Global Pharma industry, the World Bank and WHO that are part of a vast conspiracy to reduce the world’s population have done a really bad job since it’s doubled in the last few decades. Billions of people have been lifted out of poverty. Infant mortality rates have plummeted, literacy rates have increased. More girls are in education and Bill Gates is getting a really bad return on his money if the objective is self enrichment.

All that pesky evidence and all those pesky facts keep pointing to a lack of conspiracies. Logic keeps upsetting the narrative. Facts, who needs them?


----------



## time to plan

time to plan said:


> So after all that, can anyone offer any evidence that children wearing masks would have a lower IQ?


Anyone at all?


----------



## time to plan

Purple said:


> I am appalled by the lack of influence I now find I have over the decisions made about the developing world after all those Trocaire boxes I filled and Concern fasts I did.
> 
> The strange thing is that all those smart people running the Global Pharma industry, the World Bank and WHO that are part of a vast conspiracy to reduce the world’s population have done a really bad job since it’s doubled in the last few decades. Billions of people have been lifted out of poverty. Infant mortality rates have plummeted, literacy rates have increased. More girls are in education and Bill Gates is getting a really bad return on his money if the objective is self enrichment.
> 
> All that pesky evidence and all those pesky facts keep pointing to a lack of conspiracies. Logic keeps upsetting the narrative. Facts, who needs them?


That's what the reptilians WANT you to think.


----------



## seamus m

Leo said:


> They're just doing what good governments are supposed to do and legislate to protect the majority. Like vaccinations, there is zero doubt that speed limits and drink-driving legislation have saved many lives. I presume you'd prefer if we scrapped that legislation and everyone was just allowed to make up their own minds...until of course it's someone you care about who suffers.


Now you are comparing the unvaccinated  to drink drivers and  also the only vaccination I'm on about is covid vaccine.My only issue with the vaccine is   as clubman pointed out that with or without you still can get covid .


----------



## odyssey06

seamus m said:


> Now you are comparing the unvaccinated  to drink drivers and  also the only vaccination I'm on about is covid vaccine.My only issue with the vaccine is   as clubman pointed out that with or without you still can get covid .


And you can crash a car sober and drive home drunk and make it... but thats not the way to bet.

Without a vaccine you are far more likely to get infected, to have a severe case and are more likely to spread it.


----------



## Purple

seamus m said:


> Now you are comparing the unvaccinated  to drink drivers and  also the only vaccination I'm on about is covid vaccine.My only issue with the vaccine is   as clubman pointed out that with or without you still can get covid .



So your only issue is that with the vaccine you are much safer but not totally safe. Yea, it would be great if removed the chances of serious infection or death rather that just vastly reducing it. Is that a reason not to take it?

With or without a seatbelt you can still be in a car crash and you can still get injured or killed but the seatbelt reduces the chances of serious injury or death. The people who are arguing against the vaccine are like the people who used to say they opposed seatbelts because you could be thrown clear in a crash if you didn't wear one.
In modern parlance they are called 'thicks'.


----------



## seamus m

Purple said:


> So your only issue is that with the vaccine you are much safer but not totally safe. Yea, it would be great if removed the chances of serious infection or death rather that just vastly reducing it. Is that a reason not to take it?
> 
> With or without a seatbelt you can still be in a car crash and you can still get injured or killed but the seatbelt reduces the chances of serious injury or death. The people who are arguing against the vaccine are like the people who used to say they opposed seatbelts because you could be thrown clear in a crash if you didn't wear one.
> In modern parlance they are called 'thicks'.


I think you should stay out of the car  between unvaccinated  drink drivers , unvaccinated  drivers not wearing seat belts and children been knocked down by unvaccinated speeding light breaking drivers it's not very safe out there


----------



## Purple

seamus m said:


> I think you should stay out of the car  between unvaccinated  drink drivers , unvaccinated  drivers not wearing seat belts and children been knocked down by unvaccinated speeding light breaking drivers it's not very safe out there


What?


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Ceist Beag said:


> I would say you're missing any credible evidence that wearing a mask impacts brain development...


Although he is providing real time evidence that not wearing a mask still impairs brain function.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Incredible masks cause lack of oxygen and lowers IQ, now I'm a fairly open minded person but when you read this stuff you really have ask the question " what is wrong with these people "? 

A global pandemic that has killed millions has shut down countries for months and took a historic effort by hundreds of companies to develop vaccines by sharing data on a level never seen in the history of mankind and the effects are now seen everywhere is all " fake " and is a plot to put humanity into servitude for the rest of time.

I'm sending this to the Syfy channel there has to be a tv series in this.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

seamus m said:


> I think you should stay out of the car  between unvaccinated  drink drivers , unvaccinated  drivers not wearing seat belts and children been knocked down by unvaccinated speeding light breaking drivers it's not very safe out there


Wow that must the most inane and infantile post I've read anywhere in a very long time.


----------



## Firefly

Purple said:


> With or without a seatbelt you can still be in a car crash and you can still get injured or killed but the seatbelt reduces the chances of serious injury or death.


But a seatbelt worn too high around the neck might reduce the oxygen intake thus lowering IQ


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Firefly said:


> But a seatbelt worn too high around the neck might reduce the oxygen intake thus lowering IQ


I don't think IQ is necessarily important to drive a car nowadays,  and the evidence here this morning in Maynooth really supports that theory.


----------



## time to plan

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Wow that must the most inane and infantile post I've read anywhere in a very long time.


To be fair, it is easy to see why some people would be very anxious about lowering their IQ.


----------



## Leo

seamus m said:


> Now you are comparing the unvaccinated  to drink drivers and  also the only vaccination I'm on about is covid vaccine.My only issue with the vaccine is   as clubman pointed out that with or without you still can get covid .


Take some more time to read what I wrote again to understand what I actually said! 

Vaccines, including covid, undoubtedly save lives. so a good government acting in the best interests of the people should at the very least strongly encourage vaccination. You suggest that is wrong and people should be allowed to make their own minds up. 

In relation to drink driving, we again know with certainly that cutting down in drunk driving has saved many lives. The gentle encouragement approach in the late 60's and 70's didn't work so legislation was made more strict over time. 

Your suggestion that everyone should be just allowed to make up their mind on vaccination would be like going back to the days when everyone could make up their minds on how much was appropriate for them to drink. 

Making up your own mind is fine when you are the only one who can suffer the consequences of your choice. In situations like drink driving or highly contagious viruses, one person's decisions can impact on many others. 

A good government legislates and advises for the greater good. There are thousands of ways those decisions impact on the daily lives of citizens, and we may not like all of them, but that is the price of living as part of a society.


----------



## Leo

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Incredible masks cause lack of oxygen and lowers IQ, now I'm a fairly open minded person but when you read this stuff you really have ask the question " what is wrong with these people "?


It's a dangerous combination of a lack of even a primary school grasp of science and a love of fantastical and far-fetched conspiracies.


----------



## seamus m

Leo said:


> It's a dangerous combination of a lack of even a primary school grasp of science and a love of fantastical and far-fetched conspiracies.


No nothing wrong or untrue  about vaccinated people getting covid ,nothing wrong about being sceptical about side effects of  an untested  vaccine and certainly nothing wrong about  young healthy  people being left to make up their own minds.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

seamus m said:


> No nothing wrong or untrue  about vaccinated people getting covid ,nothing wrong about being sceptical about side effects of  an untested  vaccine and certainly nothing wrong about  young healthy  people being left to make up their own minds.


The vaccines have been through the most vigorous clinical trials ever carried out in the history of vaccine production.  Over 500,000 people participated in clinical trials globally and Pfizers vaccine is fully approved by the FDA.
Vaccine Development has always been hampered by lack of clinical trial participants not this time though so that argument is moot.

Yes people vaccinated can still get and transmit covid. But what relevance that has on the positives seems beyond your capabilities. 

What side effects? There is some evidence of heart issues and other non fatal side effects but with about 4bn vaccines of varying nationalities and production the levels of side effects are minuscule. 

Everyone has the choice of taking the vaccines,  young , old , intelligent or thick nobody denies that,  but likewise society has the right to curtail their interactions and protect those in society that need protection and the majority won't and shouldn't apologise for that. Being a human being has many facets and responsibilities is one of those.


----------



## odyssey06

seamus m said:


> No nothing wrong or untrue  about vaccinated people getting covid ,nothing wrong about being sceptical about side effects of  an untested  vaccine and certainly nothing wrong about  young healthy  people being left to make up their own minds.


If you think the vaccines are untested you don't know much about medicines.
Next time you reach for something in the medicine cabinet, or undergo a procedure or treatment, look at how 'tested' it was before it was approved.

It is wrong and untrue to paint "vaccinated people" getting covid as meaning there's no difference in outcomes for vaccinated people versus unvaccinated when it comes to symptoms, transmissions, hospitalisations and deaths. It's like saying you can still die in a car crash so what's the use of a seat belt. It's a fundamentally disingenous and ignorant answer, it's obvious from how you repeat it like a mantra you are shutting your ears to that reality and that's not scepticism. It's the opposite of it.
Nothing wrong with being wary of side effects, but if you have actually looked at the risk \ benefits of vaccine versus covid infection, then if you've made up your mind that vaccines are more risky, then you've made a wrong decision.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

odyssey06 said:


> If you think the vaccines are untested you don't know much about medicines.
> Next time you reach for something in the medicine cabinet, or undergo a procedure or treatment, look at how 'tested' it was before it was approved.
> 
> It is wrong and untrue to paint "vaccinated people" getting covid as meaning there's no difference in outcomes for vaccinated people versus unvaccinated when it comes to symptoms, transmissions, hospitalisations and deaths. It's like saying you can still die in a car crash so what's the use of a seat belt. It's a fundamentally disingenous and ignorant answer, it's obvious from how you repeat it like a mantra you are shutting your ears to that reality and that's not scepticism. It's the opposite of it.
> Nothing wrong with being wary of side effects, but if you have actually looked at the risk \ benefits of vaccine versus covid infection, then if you've made up your mind that vaccines are more risky, then you've made a wrong decision.


Only if we could develop a vaccine to suppress the " inability to understand the reality of anything "  that would be a good vaccine to rollout 

Of course while mRNA is radical it's not that "radical dude".

LOL


----------



## Purple

Unvaccinated people can still get Covid and people wearing bullet proof vests can still get shot in the chest.


----------



## Purple

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Of course while mRNA is radical


Yes, it's radically less likely to cause side effects.


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## Paul O Mahoney

Purple said:


> Yes, it's radically less likely to cause side effects.


Or death


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## Purple

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Or death


Yes, it  is a non-infectious, , there is no potential risk of infection or insertional mutagenesis. Basically as medicines go vaccines are safe. mRNA vaccines are safer.


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## Purple

Ms Cahill's Facebook page has been taken down because of the misinformation she has been spreading. Good to see.


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## Dontthinkso

Mrs Cahill,s page is not only thing taken down .I would think all people on this site who seem to be anti vaccination  or in their opinion anti vaccination that dosnt work,seem to have lost their voice.I think the site is worse for this cull.Bring back Susie 2017 ,Demoveire  and Seamus m.Although I don't agree with all that they were  saying it provided a more rounded and robust debate.When you look back through their  posts not all was untrue either and some has come to pass  ie the choice and freedom of making up your own mind on taking the  vaccination is being taken away from people (literally in some countries and with strong arm tactics in others).Also 4 months on and none of vaccines are fda approved yet despite claims otherwise Pfizer  cleared for emergency use only is not a full green light by any stretch of the imagination.Although Brendan you created this site it shouldn't be a forum for agreeing with you .


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## Purple

Disagreeing with mandatory vaccination and/or questioning the effectiveness of vaccines is a world away from just making things up and peddling conspiracy theories which is what Ms Cahill was doing.


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## Paul O Mahoney

Dontthinkso said:


> Also 4 months on and none of vaccines are fda approved yet despite claims otherwise Pfizer  cleared for emergency use only is not a full green light by any stretch of the imagination.


Really and yet on the 23rd of August 2021 the FDA said regarding Pfizer/Biontech vaccine 
" *The FDAs approval of this vaccine is a milestone as we continue to battle the Covid-19 pandemic " *
This is the first line of a long paragraph.

If you are talking about the booster, it's the same vaccine so and is fully approved.


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## Leo

Dontthinkso said:


> .I would think all people on this site who seem to be anti vaccination or in their opinion anti vaccination that dosnt work,seem to have lost their voice.I think the site is worse for this cull.Bring back Susie 2017 ,Demoveire and Seamus m


We don't ban people who have an opinion that is different to the majority. Productive open debate helps us all learn. 

I don't recall what it was resulted in the above being banned, but in the vast majority of cases, users who breach the rules get one or more warnings prior to a ban. AAM does not exist to attract advertising revenue, so we won't follow the Twitter or Facebook model of tolerating dangerous misinformation just to gain clicks.


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## Dontthinkso

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Really and yet on the 23rd of August 2021 the FDA said regarding Pfizer/Biontech vaccine
> " *The FDAs approval of this vaccine is a milestone as we continue to battle the Covid-19 pandemic " *
> This is the first line of a long paragraph.
> 
> If you are talking about the booster, it's the same vaccine so and is fully approved.


*EUA Statement*

Emergency uses of the vaccine have not been approved or licensed by FDA, but have been authorized by FDA, under an Emergency Use Authorization (EUA) to prevent Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) in individuals 5 years of age and older. The emergency uses are only authorized for the duration of the declaration that circumstances exist justifying the authorization of emergency use of the medical product under Section 564(b)(1) of the FD&C Act unless the declaration is terminated or authorization revoked sooner. Please see EUA Fact Sheets at www.cvdvaccine-us.com.
*This is from Pfizer website clearly emergency use only*


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## Paul O Mahoney

Dontthinkso said:


> *EUA Statement*
> 
> Emergency uses of the vaccine have not been approved or licensed by FDA, but have been authorized by FDA, under an Emergency Use Authorization (EUA) to prevent Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) in individuals 5 years of age and older. The emergency uses are only authorized for the duration of the declaration that circumstances exist justifying the authorization of emergency use of the medical product under Section 564(b)(1) of the FD&C Act unless the declaration is terminated or authorization revoked sooner. Please see EUA Fact Sheets at www.cvdvaccine-us.com.
> *This is from Pfizer website clearly emergency use only*


Read your link it clearly says its approved, the EUA is for younger people and children and we were not talking about those.


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## Paul O Mahoney

FDA NEWS RELEASE
FDA Approves First COVID-19 Vaccine​Approval Signifies Key Achievement for Public Health​

For Immediate Release:August 23, 2021

Today, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration approved the first COVID-19 vaccine. The vaccine has been known as the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine, and will now be marketed as Comirnaty (koe-mir’-na-tee), for the prevention of COVID-19 disease in individuals 16 years of age and older. The vaccine also continues to be available under emergency use authorization (EUA), including for individuals 12 through 15 years of age and for the administration of a third dose in certain immunocompromised individuals.
*“The FDA’s approval of this vaccine is a milestone as we continue to battle the COVID-19 pandemic. While this and other vaccines have met the FDA’s rigorous, scientific standards for emergency use authorization, as the first FDA-approved COVID-19 vaccine, the public can be very confident that this vaccine meets the high standards for safety, effectiveness, and manufacturing quality the FDA requires of an approved product,” said Acting FDA Commissioner Janet Woodcock, M.D. “While millions of people have already safely received COVID-19 vaccines, we recognize that for some, the FDA approval of a vaccine may now instill additional confidence to get vaccinated. Today’s milestone puts us one step closer to altering the course of this pandemic in the U.S.” *


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## Purple

Dontthinkso said:


> *EUA Statement*
> 
> Emergency uses of the vaccine have not been approved or licensed by FDA, but have been authorized by FDA, under an Emergency Use Authorization (EUA) to prevent Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) in individuals 5 years of age and older. The emergency uses are only authorized for the duration of the declaration that circumstances exist justifying the authorization of emergency use of the medical product under Section 564(b)(1) of the FD&C Act unless the declaration is terminated or authorization revoked sooner. Please see EUA Fact Sheets at www.cvdvaccine-us.com.
> *This is from Pfizer website clearly emergency use only*


It doesn't matter how hard you look you just won't find credible evidence that vaccines are dangerous because they aren't. You won't find cover up's or conspiracies because there aren't any. There are just tens of thousands of scientists and engineers and technicians doing their job because it is their job and that's what they and the tens of thousands of people who came before them have chosen to do. 
They have chosen to do it and continue  to do it for a myriad of reasons. Those reasons may include a passionate belief that they are making the world a better place or scientific curiosity or greed or they're stuck doing it to pay the bills or any mix of the above or something else but there's no overarching conspiracy between the captains of global capitalism, doctors, scientists, Civil Servants and Governments around the world. There's just people doing their job and the fabric and infrastructure of humanity, with all it's glorious flaws, reacting to what the world is throwing at it.


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## Paul O Mahoney

Purple said:


> It doesn't matter how hard you look you just won't find credible evidence that vaccines are dangerous because they aren't. You won't find cover up's or conspiracies because there aren't any. There are just tens of thousands of scientists and engineers and technicians doing their job because it is their job and that's what they and the tens of thousands of people who came before them have chosen to do.
> They have chosen to do it and continue  to do it for a myriad of reasons. Those reasons may include a passionate belief that they are making the world a better place or scientific curiosity or greed or they're stuck doing it to pay the bills or any mix of the above or something else but there's no overarching conspiracy between the captains of global capitalism, doctors, scientists, Civil Servants and Governments around the world. There's just people doing their job and the fabric and infrastructure of humanity, with all it's glorious flaws, reacting to what the world is throwing at it.


However I've a funny feeling the search will go on.
But as one of the  recently crowned Noble Laureate for peace said  , " Without facts there can be be no truth "


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## Brendan Burgess

Dontthinkso said:


> Although Brendan you created this site it shouldn't be a forum for agreeing with you .



You know that you can edit your user name in the control panel? 

There seems to be a typo in your name - no need for the last two letters.

Brendan


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## Dontthinkso

Ha ha ,still won't make the vaccine work .


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## odyssey06

Dontthinkso said:


> Ha ha ,still won't make the vaccine work .


The vaccines work at protection from hospitalisation as evidenced by the fact that half the hospitalisations and majority of ICU patients with covid are unvaccinated - despite them being less than 10 percent of the population.

This protection weakens slightly over time but is more durable than that against symptomatic infection. Hence the need for boosters.

If vaccines dont work with such results then neither do most vaccines, medicines or our natural immune system which similarly weakens and wanes over time between antibody and T-cell defences.


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## Paul O Mahoney

odyssey06 said:


> The vaccines work at protection from hospitalisation as evidenced by the fact that half the hospitalisations and majority of ICU patients with covid are unvaccinated - despite them being less than 10 percent of the population.
> 
> This protection weakens slightly over time but is more durable than that against symptomatic infection. Hence the need for boosters.
> 
> If vaccines dont work with such results then neither do most vaccines, medicines or our natural immune system which similarly weakens and wanes over time between antibody and T-cell defences.


You are probably wasting your time using facts .


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## EmmDee

Not much point discussing reality with someone divorced from it and happily glugging the Kool Aid


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## Dontthinkso

The reality is there are roughly 600 people in hospital altogether 300 are from the so called unvaccinated. How many of these are under 50   .not obese   and no underlying conditions. If you want to stop the world and blame the few unvaccinated and the kids off with you.target who needs it and let the rest get on with it .When the take up of 5 to 12 year olds is less than 30 to 40 percent will you blame these or is this the most of today's unvaccinated you are on about.


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## Dontthinkso

Also the best news ever is reducing time of booster  jabs to 3 months because now we will start to hear about the super booster number 4  and then the super duper booster .Funnily enough it's at this stage your take up will be less when the reality bites that approach is not working enough to justify stopping the world and that's leaving out any potential side effects or long term effects from the vaccine which with your crystal ball you will also tell me no chance


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## Dontthinkso

While I'm on it another thing no one is mentioning is the profile of people in hospital if they are so called half and half are their ages similar, their issues similar their background., are they living in poverty. would they have got it anyway?Also how can Stephen Donnelly say the benefits of vaccinating 5 to 11 year olds are not getting covid and not having long term effects from covid when it dosnt affect this cohort at all.Surely the only benefit is not passing it to someone compromised and when you can pass it while vaccinated this surely makes this a stupid reason to get it.


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## odyssey06

Dontthinkso said:


> The reality is there are roughly 600 people in hospital altogether 300 are from the so called unvaccinated. How many of these are under 50   .not obese   and no underlying conditions. If you want to stop the world and blame the few unvaccinated and the kids off with you.target who needs it and let the rest get on with it .When the take up of 5 to 12 year olds is less than 30 to 40 percent will you blame these or is this the most of today's unvaccinated you are on about.


I think your ship has sailed away from port reality. The "so called unvaccinated". I don't know who you think you'll convince with this nonsense.

The percentage of over 70s fully vaccinated is over 95%. Less than 10% of adults are unvaccinated. It's demonstrably true that being vaccinated reduces your chances of ending up in hospital or ICU. Anyone who disputes that does so not from a position of scientific facts, and has to resort to lies and smokescreens and deflections.
And yes, even people under 50 can end up in hospital and die from covid and the vaccines reduces that risk. If the unvaccinated weren't in hospital it wouldn't be an issue. The 'few' unvaccinated are the ones stopping the world from moving on.

There are only so many ICU beds available, there is a respiratory pandemic. Countries across Europe have brought in measures to encourage vaccination for these obvious reasons and in response to pressure on public health systems. Ireland is not an outlier in this. Vaccines work.


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## odyssey06

Dontthinkso said:


> While I'm on it another thing no one is mentioning is the profile of people in hospital if they are so called half and half are their ages similar, their issues similar their background., are they living in poverty. would they have got it anyway?Also how can Stephen Donnelly say the benefits of vaccinating 5 to 11 year olds are not getting covid and not having long term effects from covid when it dosnt affect this cohort at all.Surely the only benefit is not passing it to someone compromised and when you can pass it while vaccinated this surely makes this a stupid reason to get it.



Children can be hospitalised and die from covid, and suffer long covid. To say it doesn't affect this cohort at all is untrue. It affects them less than adults but there is still direct benefit to children from being vaccinated.

Being vaccinated will reduce disruption to education system and the child's education.

Being vaccinated reduces your chances of being infected with the virus, and transmitting it. You can pass it on while vaccinated but are less likely to do so than if unvaccinated.

If you'd like to dispute that, perhaps you could offer up some facts.


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## Sunny

Why are people even engaging with this nonsense? Don't waste your time trying to convince them. They can't even do basic maths.  You would be more successful trying to convince @Purple that there is a place in the modern world for trade unions.


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## Purple

Sunny said:


> Why are people even engaging with this nonsense? Don't waste your time trying to convince them. They can't even do basic maths.  You would be more successful trying to convince @Purple that there is a place in the modern world for trade unions.


There is a place in the modern world for Trade Unions though, but modern Trade Unions, just like there's a place for questioning vaccines and our Covid response, just that have to be rational logical questions.


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## odyssey06

Sunny said:


> Why are people even engaging with this nonsense? Don't waste your time trying to convince them. They can't even do basic maths.


It's more about not leaving unfounded claims unchallenged on a forum.


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## Sunny

There are lots of rational questions to be asked around vaccinating children and it is not as clear cut as a lot people make it out to be. I would hate to see parents discouraged from asking questions because they didn't want to be seen as anti vaccine or stupid. I certainly wouldn't like to see the debate on that stiffled. 

However posts like above about vaccines in general are just examples of the tripe that people are taking from social media. They have no place in any reasonable discussion and I think an argument could be made for removing them from AAM. We don't discuss medical issues and should probably go back to that rule. I don't mind people sharing research links but the rest is just bar stool talk and there is enough of it on other social media sites.


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## Leo

Dontthinkso said:


> While I'm on it another thing no one is mentioning is the profile of people in hospital if they are so called half and half are their ages similar, their issues similar their background., are they living in poverty. would they have got it anyway?Also how can Stephen Donnelly say the benefits of vaccinating 5 to 11 year olds are not getting covid and not having long term effects from covid when it dosnt affect this cohort at all.Surely the only benefit is not passing it to someone compromised and when you can pass it while vaccinated this surely makes this a stupid reason to get it.


I suggest you go back and spend a little more time reading the previous threads in this forum before posting again.

All of your questions have already been covered in detail here and other reliable sources. The stats on infection rates, hospitalisation, and intensive care for vaccinated / unvaccinated are published.


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## Dontthinkso

odyssey06 said:


> The 'few' unvaccinated are the ones stopping the world from moving on.


Even you can't believe that. Basic maths will prove in the end who's right. At first it was all about the unvacinated passing it,  now it's they are more likely to pass it.then there was  the viral load from an unvacinated person being worse than the vaccinated now it's there's 45 people more in icu in the whole of Ireland of which your implying wouldn't be there otherwise not regarding their health etc .it's this 45  that we shut the whole country down for and try to force  people to get vaccinated 
 including healthy children who will no more than have a sniffle from a dose of covid.


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## odyssey06

Dontthinkso said:


> Even you can't believe that. Basic maths will prove in the end who's right. At first it was all about the unvacinated passing it,  now it's they are more likely to pass it.then there was  the viral load from an unvacinated person being worse than the vaccinated now it's there's 45 people more in icu in the whole of Ireland of which your implying wouldn't be there otherwise not regarding their health etc .it's this 45  that we shut the whole country down for and try to force  people to get vaccinated
> including healthy children who will no more than have a sniffle from a dose of covid.


It's not a question of belief. You've been asked for facts to justify your questions, it's obvious to everyone reading the thread you've got nothing to challenge the fact that vaccines work & that unvaccinated people are more likely to end up in hospital / ICU & that vaccinated people are less likely to be infected and transmit covid than unvaccinated.

45 people is 20% of our ICU capacity. There's only so many unvaccinated infected people public health systems can cope with, as witnessed by other countries in the EU having even stronger measures than we do, some such countries having greater hospital capacity than we do.

The country isn't shut down, because we have so many people vaccinated. Without vaccinations this level of case count would already have overwhelmed hospital capacity and put us into Level 4 or Level 5 measures.
But if more restrictions come in, the disproportionate impact of the hundreds of thousands who choose not to get vacccinated will be in large part to blame. So if you want to shut the country down, don't get vaccinated, "get on with life" but don't come crying if more measures come in... or you end up in hospital with hundreds of the rest of your ilk.


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## Leo

Dontthinkso said:


> At first it was all about the unvacinated passing it, now it's they are more likely to pass it.


How is it a surprise that the level of knowledge and understanding of a completely new virus has evolved over time? Did you expect some scientists to wake up one morning and just know everything? 


Dontthinkso said:


> now it's there's 45 people more in icu in the whole of Ireland of which your implying wouldn't be there otherwise not regarding their health etc .


Just look at the stats now on numbers requiring ICU intervention relative to hospitalisation and overall cases and try argue that vaccines are not working.


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## RetirementPlan

Dontthinkso said:


> While I'm on it another thing no one is mentioning is the profile of people in hospital if they are so called half and half are their ages similar, their issues similar their background., are they living in poverty. would they have got it anyway?Also how can Stephen Donnelly say the benefits of vaccinating 5 to 11 year olds are not getting covid and not having long term effects from covid when it dosnt affect this cohort at all.Surely the only benefit is not passing it to someone compromised and when you can pass it while vaccinated this surely makes this a stupid reason to get it.


Do the lives of people 'with issues' matter less than others? Would you like to explain to this lady why the life of her sister matters less?


			https://twitter.com/KateKennedy66/status/1471035779329761281


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## Paul O Mahoney

RetirementPlan said:


> Do the lives of people 'with issues' matter less than others? Would you like to explain to this lady why the life of her sister matters less?
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/KateKennedy66/status/1471035779329761281


Unfortunately this narrative of people with underlying health issues " were probably going to die anyway " litters forums by those who try to justify their ill informed views on Covid and the vaccines. Its masks the lack of understanding or appreciation of the devastation the pandemic is having.

Initially this was 5G and Bill Gates trying to control minds and brains in order to glean information, but let's be honest any information held in the minds and brains of these people isn't really the type of information that's needed.

They complain when they are " instructed " to do things by the Government or NPHET as its " against their rights " then they immediately go online to harass and intimidate people, or worse call to hospitals and persuade sick people to leave.


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## Purple

I renew my call for the awarding of a collective Darwin Award to all the people who were unvaccinated by choice and have died of Covid. To borrow from the Roman Gladiators, The Genepool Salutes You!


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## Leo

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Unfortunately this narrative of people with underlying health issues " were probably going to die anyway " litters forums by those who try to justify their ill informed views on Covid and the vaccines. Its masks the lack of understanding or appreciation of the devastation the pandemic is having.


What continues to surprise me is how those who focus on the 'underlying health issues' factor seem to think of them as some small minority when that is far from reality.


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## Sophrosyne

And the other promulgated fallacy is that underlying health issues refers solely to the elderly.


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## Sunny

Leo said:


> What continues to surprise me is how those who focus on the 'underlying health issues' factor seem to think of them as some small minority when that is far from reality.



Even though I think it is worth mentioning that over 90% of the vaccinated people in ICU have underlying conditions. Any healthy person who refuses to get the vaccine because they read that 50% of people in ICU are vaccinated are idiots.


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## Paul O Mahoney

Leo said:


> What continues to surprise me is how those who focus on the 'underlying health issues' factor seem to think of them as some small minority when that is far from reality.


It's a least 200,000 people known and there are probably even more who don't know they have an issue, and if they were to get Covid it becomes apparent.


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## Paul O Mahoney

Sophrosyne said:


> And the other promulgated fallacy is that underlying health issues refers solely to the elderly.


Yep, eventhough I know of someone 33 who was recovering from a serious illness, doing great got covid and passed 12 weeks later.

Baffling why any life can be discounted for lies.


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## Purple

Leo said:


> What continues to surprise me is how those who focus on the 'underlying health issues' factor seem to think of them as some small minority when that is far from reality.


By this stage of my life I should not be surprised by the truism that "There's no shortage of thicks out there", and yet they continue to surprise me by their sheer volume. 
Just for clarity, if it seems that I am looking down on those who are unvaccinated by choice it's because I am.  I think they are fools, idiots who are endangering others because of their wilful stupidity.


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## Paul O Mahoney

Let's get positive,

_*Pfizer’s Covid-19 antiviral pill cuts the risk of hospitalisation or death by up to 89 per cent in high-risk patients, according to final trial results that confirm earlier data*_.

From yesterday's FT.

It goes on to say that its likely it is also to be effective against Omicron.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Purple said:


> By this stage of my life I should not be surprised by the truism that "There's no shortage of thicks out there", and yet they continue to surprise me by their sheer volume.
> Just for clarity, if it seems that I am looking down on those who are unvaccinated by choice it's because I am.  I think they are fools, idiots who are endangering others because of their wilful stupidity.


And I thought I shot from the hip.

Steven Covey once said , "if two people who are educated to an equal level,  and you explain something and the other person still doesn't understand it's not your problem ".


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## Leo

Paul O Mahoney said:


> It's a least 200,000 people known and there are probably even more who don't know they have an issue, and if they were to get Covid it becomes apparent.


It's a lot more than that, being overweight is listed as an underlying condition that increases the risk of severe illness, 56% of adults here are overweight. Then half of over-45s have high blood pressure (many undiagnosed).


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## Dontthinkso

Leo said:


> I suggest you go back and spend a little more time reading the previous threads in this forum before posting again.
> 
> All of your questions have already been covered in detail here and other reliable sources. The stats on infection rates, hospitalisation, and intensive care for vaccinated / unvaccinated are published.


No one says how many of icu patients are living in poverty or obese or with underlying conditions vaccinated or not.


Leo said:


> How is it a surprise that the level of knowledge and understanding of a completely new virus has evolved over time? Did you expect some scientists to wake up one morning and just know everything?
> 
> Just look at the stats now on numbers requiring ICU intervention relative to hospitalisation and overall cases and try argue that vaccines are not





Paul O Mahoney said:


> Yep, eventhough I know of someone 33 who was recovering from a serious illness, doing great got covid and passed 12 weeks later.
> 
> Baffling why any life can be discounted for lies.


That's the hearsay only you can say


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## Paul O Mahoney

Dontthinkso said:


> That's the hearsay only you can say


You truly are a troll.


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## Dontthinkso

Paul O Mahoney said:


> You truly are a troll.


That is not true .if I said I know someone who is sick from vaccine I'd be shot down.The reality is no matter what anyone says you believe you are right.The reality is you think your view entitles you to change the law or rules for people who don't agree  because  in your mind you couldn't be wrong.You believe that what you search on the Internet is right while what I search is wrong. I don't do Facebook ,twitter Instagram or any social media in fact I rarely Google past the news  weather or sports results .I know what I see around me and I'm well able to make up my own mind just like you where when  you chose to take the vaccine but the difference  is I don't believe what I'm told and that's  not just to argue but the fact that the people are still getting sick.No cover up needed .The problem is your view and your choice is being shoved on me and I believe by misinformation or telling what you want us to hear will justify what you want whether it's me right or you.


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## Shirazman

Praise be to The Lord/Allah/The Buddha/Eric Clapton for the 'ignore' function!  

Life is far too short to waste on reading the dribblings of idiots.


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## Paul O Mahoney

Dontthinkso said:


> That is not true .if I said I know someone who is sick from vaccine I'd be shot down.The reality is no matter what anyone says you believe you are right.The reality is you think your view entitles you to change the law or rules for people who don't agree  because  in your mind you couldn't be wrong.You believe that what you search on the Internet is right while what I search is wrong. I don't do Facebook ,twitter Instagram or any social media in fact I rarely Google past the news  weather or sports results .I know what I see around me and I'm well able to make up my own mind just like you where when  you chose to take the vaccine but the difference  is I don't believe what I'm told and that's  not just to argue but the fact that the people are still getting sick.No cover up needed .The problem is your view and your choice is being shoved on me and I believe by misinformation or telling what you want us to hear will justify what you want whether it's me right or you.


Wow a narcissist too.


----------



## joer

I know of plenty of fit and healthy people who got very sick from Covid and couldn't wait to get the Vaccine and booster.


----------



## RetirementPlan

Dontthinkso said:


> Sticks and stones .My advice to anyone under 30 fit and healthy think carefully before you take vaccine while giving it to fit and healty children  is are you mad.They have made enough sacrifices instead of being guinea pigs .


Do you have any qualifications to be giving medical advice like this? I generally take medical advice from medical professionals.


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## Purple

Dontthinkso said:


> Sticks and stones .My advice to anyone under 30 fit and healthy think carefully before you take vaccine


Why? There is no evidence to suggest there is a statistically significant risk of meaningful side effects and vaccination reduces the amount of community transmission. 


Dontthinkso said:


> while giving it to fit and healty children  is are you mad.


Why? (I ask for the same reason as above)


Dontthinkso said:


> They have made enough sacrifices


Yes they have and the morons who are not vaccinated by choice are causing them to continue to sacrifice and suffer. 


Dontthinkso said:


> instead of being guinea pigs .


What on earth does that mean? Do you also think Birds aren't real?


----------



## Leo

Dontthinkso said:


> No one says how many of icu patients are living in poverty or obese or with underlying conditions vaccinated or not.


Stats are published for most of those factors, but you clearly have no interest in verified data from trustworthy sources. 

Are you suggesting there is a link between poverty and severity of illness. Can you point to a source for that?


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## Deiseblue

Shirazman said:


> Praise be to The Lord/Allah/The Buddha/Eric Clapton for the 'ignore' function!
> 
> Life is far too short to waste on reading the dribblings of idiots.


I’d leave Eric Clapton out of your list of Deities, he’s a leading vaccine sceptic.
He’s no longer God , he’s a very silly man !


----------

