# Builder coming back for more money



## jasonhar (4 Dec 2006)

I need some advice (maybe legal advice as well).

My wife got a piece of land off her dad - so we built a house on it.
We did direct labour. We did the plans ourselves and the foundations.
  The builder was in charge of doing the shell of the house (walls, stone cladding, roof) – he quoted 46K PUNT, this was back in 1998 and we accepted.
  This quote was written on a general receipt book with only our names, description as ‘2 storey house (walls, stone cladding & roof)’. We had no official contracts or any formal written communication.
  He took 3 YEARS to actually finish his work.
  Basically, because my wife and I were working in the UK, he took the p#ss, because he knew we wouldn’t be there to give him hassle.
  Every time we phoned him to give him stick, he had an excuse (sand was frozen - was one to mention). The whole experience left a sour taste in our mouths.
  He finished up March 2001 and we paid him up to that point 36K punt. He never came back to us after that for the rest of the money.
  We moved into the house in October 2001 and we still heard nothing from him. So I reckoned that with all the hassle he had given us, the length of time which it took him to do the job and to allow for snagging, I thought (naively) that he had written off the 10K punt.
  Now, last week (Dec 2006), I received a standard posted envelope, from the builder, with an A5 letter-headed invoice, with scribbled on it “€26K incl. Interest, please pay me my money!”.
  I couldn’t believe it! I was so annoyed I threw it in the fire, thinking to myself, he can sing for that.

  Then I started to think about the legal side of things. A friend of mine, said something about, if an invoice isn’t paid after 5 years then they have no ground to collect on it.
  Does that ring any bells with anyone? Obviously I don’t want to give him another cent after the heartache/grey hairs he gave us. And I can’t just fork out 26 grand.
  Any suggestions? I was hoping for a bit of advice from here before I go and see a solicitor.


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## Vanilla (5 Dec 2006)

Statute of Limitations provides for 6 years for a debt, not 5. Since he never pursued the matter before now it is unlikely that he can claim interest. Also if you have a solid case regarding breaches of the contract you could try to bargain down the original balance due. Certainly he has a case against you for the 10K, its up to you to counterclaim for breach of contract. I'd say a good offer would be in order.


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## jasonhar (5 Dec 2006)

First of all, thanks for taking to the time to reply.

The bit about "he never pursued the matter before now"

Sending an invoice standard post - is that official enough for him to say he has began pursuing the debt. He's had no acknowledgement that we received the invoice in the first place. If he sent it registered post, and we signed for it, fair enough. Or would that not stick with the judge.

The problem with all of this, is that it has all been done word of mouth.
We never signed anything, and neither did he. the only peice of paper we ever saw was a piece of paper with a figure for direct labour for the shell of the house and then an alternative figure if we wanted him to take on the full construction as a contractor.
Is word of mouth just as strong in court as a proper signed and sealed contract. Can I not just turn round in court and say he quoted us 36K not 46K? I know i'm being crafty and underhand, but in this case, with the amount of stress he caused us, I don't care.


thanks again


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## Guest112 (5 Dec 2006)

Pay up,  big boy..........................


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## Vanilla (5 Dec 2006)

Re interest- this is at the judges discretion, the rate which can be awarded by court is 8% unless there is a term of a contract whereby another rate can be charged, which I assume isnt the case here.

So he DID send you an invoice for the balance and you ignored it? Or did you contact him and say you werent paying it because of the many problems you say you had? 

I won't answer your question about lying in court for obvious reasons.


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## jasonhar (5 Dec 2006)

I got an invoice from him last week in the post which I threw in the fire.


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## Vanilla (5 Dec 2006)

He could have obtained a certificate of postage from the PO?


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## Marie (5 Dec 2006)

jasonhar said:


> First of all, thanks for taking to the time to reply.
> 
> The bit about "he never pursued the matter before now"
> 
> ...


 
Hi Jason -  You did not dispute the agreed fee at the conclusion of the build on the grounds of how long the builder took and without a specific written time-clause in the contract this is not grounds for refusal to pay.  The agreement though informal still carries _moral_ weight.  The reality is you owe him money.  The evidence is (a) the house exists and (b) his paper-work, tax-returns etc.  Pay the man!


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## howareya (6 Dec 2006)

Don't pay him the 26k just pay the balance owed on the original agreement and tell him to go jump.  
The fact he left it for so long would suggest to me that this man isn't one for dragging people through the courts.  Actually i'd even send him half the original agreed balance and write a long note indicating your dissatisfaction over the length of time it took to complete his work.  See where it gets you. Its worth a try.
Good luck


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## whackin (6 Dec 2006)

I agree that you shoud pay him, but there is no way I owuld pay him any interest. If he didn't pursue the payment until 5 years later that is his loss entirely. 
Furthermore, he sounds like a pure cowboy, and to be frank I wouldn't encourage him int hsi type of behaviour. 3 years to buiold a house _is_ unreasonable.


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## Marie (6 Dec 2006)

In the absence of a "Time is of the Essence" clause in a detailed written specification signed by the person commissioning the work _and the builder _the length of time taken for a build is _not _grounds for non- or reduced payment!  By the way one of the 'excuses' quoted - frozen sand - is part of "adverse weather conditions" which are outside the control and liability of any builder.  Half-an-hour with your solicitor will confirm all of this.


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## paulocon (6 Dec 2006)

Have to agree with Marie as regards having a chat with your solicitor.

Despite the fact that this issue has been in the background for so long, there is a good chance that it could end up going down the legal route and due to this, it'd be in your best interests to get some legal advice now.

I know it took 3 years to finish the work but the fact that it was finished, in my mind, would mean that you should pay over what you owe him. I can't see the interest issue standind up but like I said, consult your solicitor..


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## Meathman99 (6 Dec 2006)

howareya said:


> Actually i'd even send him half the original agreed balance and write a long note indicating your dissatisfaction over the length of time it took to complete his work.  See where it gets you. Its worth a try.
> Good luck



I would be very weary of writing a letter explaining why you were only paying half the amount.  If he decides to go further he'll present this to the court.


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## Seagull (6 Dec 2006)

Was it only the time taken that was an issue, or were there problems with the quality of the build?


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## jasonhar (6 Dec 2006)

It was mainly to do with the length it took to put up. 3 years to me was a bit too long, considering he had told us he would be finished within the year (and that was said in March). We were renting a house in England, so you could say he cost us 2 years worth of rent (24 months x 700 sterling).
At the end of the day I should have had a contract sign and sealed with penalty clauses in it. But I couldn't find a builder at the time who had a notion of signing a fag box never mind a contract. Certainly not a direct labour one. And one available.
We saved a load by doing direct labour, so you could say swings and roundabouts. We have had snags with the house (water coming in through the join of the chimney, more damp areas, etc..), which i've now paid for to be fixed by someone else.


I suppose, I wanted to just found out (dreaming), if I could keep him on the back boiler till November 2007, and therefore six years had passed, and then there wasn't a hope in hell he could take me to court with this o/s bill + interest.

From reading all your comments, especially 'pay up big boy!'  it seems like people are on the builders side and maybe the law is aswell. Which I find hard to believe, considering all the horror stories i've heard in the past about other peoples self builds!

Anyways, God loves a tryer!

Thanks for all your comments.

I'll probably go round and meet him face to face with 15K and see if he will take it to settle the matter.


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## jasonhar (6 Dec 2006)

I wonder if I could put in a counter-claim for the 2 years worth of rent, which would be around the 20k mark.


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## askalot (6 Dec 2006)

jasonhar said:


> he quoted 46K PUNT ......He finished up March 2001 and we paid him up to that point 36K punt.....I received a standard posted envelope, from the builder, with an A5 letter-headed invoice, with scribbled on it “€26K incl. Interest, please pay me my money!”.




How did the interest bring 10K to 26K over five yrs? I'd love to know where he banks so I could get the same rate. Even at 8 per cent compounded over 5 years it brings it to around 14,700.

Seems he is chancing his arm. Pay the 10K that was originally agreed and make it clear that this is inspite of the work you had to get corrected at your own expense. Did you do a snag list before moving in and did he make himself available to carry out the snag?


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## jasonhar (6 Dec 2006)

The 10K was punt  = 12,697 euros.

We have a snag list. We phoned him several times, left messages. No call or visit from him. Decided at that point, because  we owed him money, we would wait till he asked for his money. 5 years later.......


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## askalot (6 Dec 2006)

So 14,700 punts = 18,665 euro, his calculation of 26,000 is mad.

If he wasn't around to do the snag then he didn't finish the job and he's lucky to get the 12,697 but its probably better to pay that and avoid legal action.

From my experience with builders you need to play hardball because they do. You can be sure that the 26K figure was plucked out of thin air. Have a list of the cost of snags etc. Then, as you said, arrange a face to face (bring a witness) and just tell him the way it is. Have the cheque for 12,697 ready to give him and have a receipt for him to sign that states it is full and final payment for all work carried out on your house. Be fair, be firm but not aggressive. 

I've been in a similar situation and it works. 

Good luck.


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## Marie (6 Dec 2006)

jasonhar said:


> My wife got a piece of land off her dad - so we built a house on it.
> We did direct labour. We did the plans ourselves and the foundations.
> The builder was in charge of doing the shell of the house (walls, stone cladding, roof) – he quoted 46K PUNT, this was back in 1998 and we accepted.
> This quote was written on a general receipt book with only our names, description as ‘2 storey house (walls, stone cladding & roof)’. We had no official contracts or any formal written communication.
> He took 3 YEARS to actually finish his work.


 
Why do you feel the builder is responsible for snagging items (the list of which emerges after kitchen and bathroom fixtures have been installed, ready-to-decorate plastering, glazing, electrics etc.) if this was self-build apart from what the builder contracted for - i.e. building and roofing a 2-story house?

The amount of interest - and indeed the full amount of the outstanding bill - are no mystery.  46,000 Irish Punt = 58,407.95 euro.  That's where the builder is getting his figure!


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## jasonhar (7 Dec 2006)

Marie - I was only talking about the snags with what he's done.
For example, rain/dampness coming in from the chimney (not down it), from where it joins the wall. I wouldn't expect him to fix snags from other peoples work. I've already stated the 10K which is outstanding is punt not euros. And as Askalot mentions it still doesn't equate to 26 grand.


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## Vanilla (7 Dec 2006)

Jason, if there were problems with his work, and you had given him the opportunity to fix himself, and he didnt, then I would deduct the money it cost you to fix from the original figure. If I were in your shoes I would go to a solicitor and get a form drafted which the builder can sign saying he accepts 'X' figure in full and final payment of all/any debts outstanding to him. Then I'd go with my form and cash ( not advocating defrauding revenue here, just that people find hard cash extremely hard to turn down, especially at this time of year) and arrange to meet him, have a chat and point out that you had to get such and such fixed, it cost you so much, but that of course the man must be paid for his work, and you make it 'X' inclusive of interest ( give him a bit of interest) and say you have it here in cash if he will sign the disclaimer. Be prepared to walk away if he doesnt accept. But try to keep it amicable.


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## Seagull (7 Dec 2006)

Most contracts would include a provision to retain a portion of the costs until the building has been completed satisfactorily. If he hasn't responded to queries about snags, then you could argue you are entitled to withhold the money. I would certainly deduct any expenses due to his not fixing the snags from the amount outstanding. Offer him something in the region of €5000.

Another point - did you sign the quote? Does he have anything to indicate that you actually agreed to the price?

I think the moral of this story is don't start building until you have proper contracts drawn up.


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## jasonhar (7 Dec 2006)

We didn't sign nothing.

All we got from him was a a5 letterheaded sheet with 

"
Direct Labour (walls, stone face, roof)     46,000


Contract to do whole of house         160,000
"

And that was it, after my wife and I discussed the options, we phoned him up and said we just wanted him to do the direct labour.


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