# ISME say businesses are being hit because regulations not being followed



## Purple (5 Oct 2020)

Neil McDonnell, the CEO of ISME is saying that businesses will end up being closed because other sections of society are not following the rules and the Gardai etc are not enforcing those rules. I think he has a point. 
While students, schoolkids and grown adults ignore the rules with impunity and the Gardai do next to nothing to enforce them, it seems very unfair to take the easy option of closing businesses again. Why are we not strictly enforcing the rules? Another lockdown will cost billions.


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## joer (5 Oct 2020)

Exactly . If the powers that be will not enforce the rules , like they should have been doing , why should everyone else pay the price . 
Whatever about house parties surely the big marches and large gatherings should be stopped from going ahead.


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## Ceist Beag (5 Oct 2020)

100% agree. It's not just business, sport, arts, there are responsible organisations in all of these areas doing their level best to try and operate in a safe environment (certain examples in the GAA over the last few weeks do suggest that not everyone is doing their best admittedly!).
A nationwide level 5 lockdown seems very blunt and severe to me, especially for responsible businesses trying to make a living.
So the question of why Gardai are not enforcing current restrictions has to be asked.


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## joer (5 Oct 2020)

It looks like its going to be level 3


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## Ceist Beag (5 Oct 2020)

Hah, get everyone so worked up it makes moving to level 3 look like an easing of restrictions! Classic move.


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## joer (5 Oct 2020)

I do not think that level 5 was realistic but it frightened a lot of people though...


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## Purple (6 Oct 2020)

NPHET did themselves no favours last weekend. They have a specific advisory brief and no executive function. they should remember that. I think it is also worth pointing out that all of the members work in the protected sector and that they are all paid by the State and they are all paid very well. Therefore their empathy with someone on a low wage in a precarious employment position would at best be academic. That's why they advise and the Government decides.


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## Ceist Beag (6 Oct 2020)

I think NPHET are perfectly entitled to make recommendations and if it is their belief that the country should move to level 5 based on the facts before them, that is what their role is. However I think it is madness that the NPHET recommendations are made public *before they discuss them with the government*. They should keep their recommendation private and let the government make the public recommendation once they have made their decision. By all means then let the people know what their recommendation to government was but the 24 hours we had between Sunday and Monday was just crazy, irresponsible and wrong.


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## Purple (6 Oct 2020)

Ceist Beag said:


> I think NPHET are perfectly entitled to make recommendations and if it is their belief that the country should move to level 5 based on the facts before them, that is what their role is. However I think it is madness that the NPHET recommendations are made public *before they discuss them with the government*. They should keep their recommendation private and let the government make the public recommendation once they have made their decision. By all means then let the people know what their recommendation to government was but the 24 hours we had between Sunday and Monday was just crazy, irresponsible and wrong.


Yes, that's the point I was making. NEPHT should only talk to the Government. They only see part of the picture. The Government's job is to take their advice and act on it in the larger economic, social and public health context. On this occasion the Government got it right.


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## Leper (6 Oct 2020)

Purple has made a good point regarding many people flouting the restrictions. Let's face it there was much more flouting going on than anybody cast a critical eye on. We spent a few days in a holiday beauty-spot while wet pubs were supposed to be shut. Where we were many of them were openly open and the only food you could get there was a bag of crisps and a bag of peanuts at a push. 

We don't have the correct amount of gardaí to enforce many laws never mind Covid Restrictions. Personal Responsibility were the two key words since the outbreak of the pandemic here. Many people have lessened the meaning of "pandemic" when it suits them. Personal Responsibility is getting to be a joke more as time creeps on. 

I don't know if the move to Level 3 for the entire country will work well, but NPHET and the government are blatantly at odds. Somebody is wrong and we'll find out whom pretty shortly. 

So Neil McDonnell CEO of ISME says many businesses will be closed. If he gets some of his members to look in the mirror, they'll see who's causing the problem.


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## Purple (6 Oct 2020)

Leper said:


> Purple has made a good point regarding many people flouting the restrictions. Let's face it there was much more flouting going on than anybody cast a critical eye on. We spent a few days in a holiday beauty-spot while wet pubs were supposed to be shut. Where we were many of them were openly open and the only food you could get there was a bag of crisps and a bag of peanuts at a push.
> 
> We don't have the correct amount of gardaí to enforce many laws never mind Covid Restrictions. Personal Responsibility were the two key words since the outbreak of the pandemic here. Many people have lessened the meaning of "pandemic" when it suits them. Personal Responsibility is getting to be a joke more as time creeps on.


 A Pub which doesn't serve food which is next door to a Garda Station in a town in Meath was open through the time when only Pubs serving food were meant to be open. We have plenty of gardai, they just need to do their job. 



Leper said:


> I don't know if the move to Level 3 for the entire country will work well, but NPHET and the government are blatantly at odds. Somebody is wrong and we'll find out whom pretty shortly.


 Level 5 will cost tens of millions a week more than Level 3. We can't keep borrowing over €100 a week for every man woman and child in the country. 



Leper said:


> So Neil McDonnell CEO of ISME says many businesses will be closed. If he gets some of his members to look in the mirror, they'll see who's causing the problem.


 They don't represent Pubs.


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## Ceist Beag (9 Oct 2020)

So NPHET are not recommending any changes, despite numbers increasing further since the weekend and their concern increasing further. How can they recommend level 5 on Sunday and say level 3 is fine yesterday based on these two things? Is it due to political pressure or are NPHET now admitting that they got it wrong on Sunday?


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## MaxGordon (9 Oct 2020)

That is an excellent question. Haven't had a chance to listen to the news today......has it got any traction?


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## Prosper (9 Oct 2020)

Purple said:


> We have plenty of gardai, they just need to do their job.


Garda management lost control years ago. When I heard one of the Garda representative associations (AGSI) saying that measures are "unworkable" or "difficult to implement". These words are code to their members to make sure the measures don't work as intended. This was the case with the mandate to wear masks on public transport, interrupting house parties, regulations for pubs and most recently the restrictions on travel . Gardai stopped many HGV's and delayed them for ages (if comments by drivers on RTE radio are believed) causing them to miss delivery times and ferry departure times. Implementing regulations without common sense ensures they don't work properly.


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## MaxGordon (12 Oct 2020)

Does anyone know how NPHET is explaining the reason for its change in recommendation from Level 5 to Level 3? I have seen no rationale explanation.

Also, why are its minutes not published? Ok, they are published but with a 6 week delay. This is nonsensical if their intention is to keep the public informed.


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## MaxGordon (16 Oct 2020)

I think NPHET's level 5 recommendation makes sense. Presumably, if it's rejected by the government, NPHET recommend Level 3 next week


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## Sophrosyne (16 Oct 2020)

NPHET didn’t change its advice but rather the government rejected it.

This Irish Times article also provides the timeline of who knew what and when.


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## MaxGordon (16 Oct 2020)

Hi Sophrosyne,

Please refer to post 12. The IT article is about the original Level 5 recommendation - that is not what is being challenged.


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## WolfeTone (16 Oct 2020)

The level 5 advice is being advised once by NPHET, this time for six weeks instead of 3 weeks. In the face of increasing cases and increasing admissions to hospital this really puts it up to government.
I hope we dont descend into a finger-pointing blame game. This virus is not with us a year yet. Relatively few people (1%) of the population have contracted it so it is understandable that people dropped their guard with the unwinding of measures in the Summer.


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## demoivre (16 Oct 2020)

WolfeTone said:


> The level 5 advice is being advised once by NPHET, this time for six weeks instead of 3 weeks. In the face of increasing cases and increasing admissions to hospital this really puts it up to government.
> I hope we dont descend into a finger-pointing blame game. This virus is not with us a year yet. Relatively few people (1%) of the population have contracted it so it is understandable that people dropped their guard with the unwinding of measures in the Summer.



How do you know it's about 1% when you don't know how many unconfirmed cases there are?

Maybe the fact that  the probability of dying from Covid 19 , at present in Ireland,  is 0.00037 is the reason some folks are indifferent about the restrictions?


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## WolfeTone (16 Oct 2020)

demoivre said:


> How do you know it's about 1% when you don't know how many unconfirmed cases there are?



True, 1% is the confirmed number. I'd imagine the unconfirmed or undetected rate would be higher. 



demoivre said:


> Maybe the fact that the probability of dying from Covid 19 , at present in Ireland, is 0.00037 is the reason some folks are indifferent about the restrictions?



Not sure where you got that figure from, but yes I suggested as much in my previous post about people, understandably in my opinion, dropping their guard.


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## bradyassoc (20 Oct 2020)

WolfeTone said:


> The level 5 advice is being advised once by NPHET, this time for six weeks instead of 3 weeks. In the face of increasing cases and increasing admissions to hospital this really puts it up to government.
> I hope we dont descend into a finger-pointing blame game. This virus is not with us a year yet. Relatively few people (1%) of the population have contracted it so it is understandable that people dropped their guard with the unwinding of measures in the Summer.



As of today there are 315 Covid patients in hospital. In the first week of January 2018 alone, 535 patients were admitted with flu. Worth keeping in mind to put a bit of perspective on things.
https://www.hpsc.ie/a-z/respiratory.../Influenza 2017-2018 Annual Summary_Final.pdf


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## demoivre (21 Oct 2020)

WolfeTone said:


> Not sure where you got that figure from,



Number of Covid deaths / Population.


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