# Solicitor failed to register deeds



## somehope (10 Apr 2008)

Hi all, My wife and I scrimped and saved since 2001 to pay off our mortgage to First Active (another sorry story).  This we did in November 2007.  But alas, no champaign - we discovered that our solicitor has never registered ourselves as owners.  Our house is not registered in the Land Registry and a search at the Registry of Deeds (all having to be done by myself due to silence from First Active to our queries as to no documentation) shows that the Title Deeds were never registered - the last entry shows the previous owners assignment back in 2000.  We have contacted this solicitor numerous times but he keeps fobbing us off.  What can we do?


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## wendy (10 Apr 2008)

Contact th Law society IMMIEDIATELY !!


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## mercman (10 Apr 2008)

If not sooner. I would not have any problem in telling him of your proposed actions. I know it will cost you extra but it might be sensible to use the services of another solicitor as well to help you sift through this mess. Let us know how you get on and Good Luck.


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## Dee101 (10 Apr 2008)

And furthermore if the Solicitor in question charged you for registering your interest with the Land Registry (which I would most definitely say he/she did), you are entitled to a refund which will help pay the fee of the new Solicitor. 

I would also put in a complaint to the Law Society and let the Solicitor know you are doing it - will put the frighteners on him/her and might get them to sort out this mess for you. Best of luck


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## mercman (10 Apr 2008)

And I assume you have paid the stamp duty as well. ????!!!!


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## somehope (10 Apr 2008)

Thanks for the advice guys.  I have been looking at the Law Society's website on complaints handling.  Looks like they go out of their way to state what they *can't* do.   So it does look like we may have to go through another Solicitor - what a system!  I presume though we can claim all the 'new' Solicitor's expenses from the negligent one?


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## somehope (10 Apr 2008)

The stamp duty thing does worry me - it was a big chunk of money - but if he did not pay it then he's surely guilty of a criminal offence?  And we are not liable?


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## mercman (10 Apr 2008)

Any papers you have you need to get them copied and submit them to another solicitor. Contact the Law Society for your own sake.


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## Dee101 (10 Apr 2008)

Yes somehope you would be entitled to a refund of the fees - if he did not do the job you paid him to do. Which he clearly didn't. Let your new Solicitor handle that - and when you do go to see the new Solicitor make it clear that this is what you want him to do - get you a refund from the old Solicitor. 

You say the Solicitor is "fobbing you off". Have you spoken to him? What exactly is he saying?


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## mercman (10 Apr 2008)

I wouldn't even bother to speak with him - It will only get you too bothered, frustrated and annoyed. I have heard of another Solicitor in Dublin (south), who appears to have done the same thing. It would be interesting to get an opinion from First Active as to why they empowered the Solicitor to register their interest. Let's remember its a full eight years since the house was purchased by the OPs.


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## somehope (10 Apr 2008)

Actually, First Active never told us anything until I took a case against them to the Financial Ombudsman.  It was only then that they investigated it and then told us that they had sent multiple correspondence to this solicitor for the title deeds to register the mortgage against it but never received any reply!  But now that we have paid the mortgage off they have no longer any interest!  Are they also negligent in not alerting us to this fact throughout the past years?


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## somehope (10 Apr 2008)

The solicitor is simply not responding to any correspondence (phone, email, etc).  I faxed the proof from the registry of deeds to his fax and have proof that it was received.


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## somehope (10 Apr 2008)

I will contact the Law Society tomorrow and try to talk to this guy at his offices.  I'll update the thread with the status.  Thanks for the advice everyone.


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## PM1234 (11 Apr 2008)

If the practice was made up of two or more solicitors, is this still the case?  Quite often if a partnership dissolves, files are split between the original partners. When you checked to see if registration was complete were there any dealings pending? (which may mean that the title deeds were sent for registration, a query arose which was never completed and therefore registration is incomplete).

If the above is not the case, is the solicitor still practising? If so write to him and give him a timeframe in which to reply. Also ask him the whereabouts of the title deeds to the property which are presumably in his office. State clearly in your letter that you will be contacting the Law Society if he fails to reply. If/when he fails to reply write to the Law Society enclosing a copy of the letter you sent to your original solicitor. The Law Society should then investigate the original solicitor. 

If the solicitor is no longer practising, you should instruct a new solicitor to take a case against the original solicitor. I'm afraid you may end up going down this route either way.


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## jerry2623 (11 Apr 2008)

Why do I get the feeling that we might not be getting the full picture here !
what was the story with FIRST ACTIVE ?


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## Jim1000 (11 Apr 2008)

Hi, Is there anywhere to vet a solicitor before using him/her ?
e.g. can you ring the law society and/or is there a better way ?


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## Welfarite (11 Apr 2008)

jerry2623 said:


> Why do I get the feeling that we might not be getting the full picture here !
> what was the story with FIRST ACTIVE ?


 

This?



somehope said:


> Actually, First Active never told us anything until I took a case against them to the Financial Ombudsman. It was only then that they investigated it and then told us that they had sent multiple correspondence to this solicitor for the title deeds to register the mortgage against it but never received any reply! But now that we have paid the mortgage off they have no longer any interest! Are they also negligent in not alerting us to this fact throughout the past years?


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## somehope (11 Apr 2008)

The story with First Active:

We paid the final mortgage installment last November.  So we expected to be opening the champaigne at Christmas with our Title Deeds safely in our posession.  Christmas came and went - no correspondence from FA.  Around mid january I started contacting FA.  Each time nothing - no response at all.  Finally in March I formally complained to the Financial Ombudsman.  When I notified FA of this they replied within the week!  That is when the whole horrible situation was relvealed to us (the rest is history, as they say).


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## mercman (11 Apr 2008)

somehope - did you find another solicitor yet ??


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## somehope (13 Apr 2008)

The story so far:

I called the solicitor last Friday and discovered that he has the Title Deeds and they are stamped (so he says).  He is saying that they will be registered within the next 2 to 3 weeks (has to get FA to formally discharge the mortgage even though it is paid off - is that normal?).  He explained that this happened as a result of the original solicitors partnership breaking up around that time (FA documents does show the solicitors name changing).

I'm going to give him the 2 weeks to get it sorted (but will call for status updates every week) and I am sending him a registered letter confirming what he is telling us to have it recorded in case it doesn't work out.

I reckon it is better to give him a chance to sort it out before going the legal route.


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## mercman (13 Apr 2008)

somehope. In reply to yours, yes it is normal for the Lending Institution to discharge the mortgage. What is open to question is that the deeds are not registered as yet. The matter of the legal practice splitting up is not of your concern. You paid him to do a job and they didn't do it. According to your past posts you are living inb the property for some time. When you are sending the registered letter to him you might advise him of your dissatisfaction, your repeated attempts to contact him and also of your intentions to report the matter to the law society. Also mention that he has whatever period you choose to complete the matters and as far as you are concerned you have discharged all fees in relation to this matter. Then if he doesn't like your content or tone, collect the papers and give them to another solicitor to check the validity of his story.


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## Petal (14 Apr 2008)

I would recomend that every new buyer checks that the deeds get sent to the land registry. I was waiting for a dealing number or some sort of number that I needed from the land registry to buy simple ground rent from the council and only when I got onto the land registry did I learn that the application had been lodged, rejected and never been relodged - 2 years after I had bought the house. It took me numerous letters, phonecalls and threatening emails to get the solicitors to get moving! You just can't trust them really.


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## sarahj (14 Apr 2008)

*....*

...


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## Madangan (14 Apr 2008)

Some hope,

Based on what the solicitor has now told you and assuming he gets the deed registered in a few weeks(seems to me no reason why this should not happen)  it will all be over in a few weeks and you can collect your deeds then. At that point feel free to complain to the law society or to whomsoever you want. However    while you have had hassle  and worry through poor communication from solicitor and  an almost certain inadvertent(as opposed to deliberate) failure to register deeds quickly you have not been prejudiced in any way.  So apart from getting the work completed now and  hopefully an apology from the solicitor what else  do you want. 
IMHO allow the solicitor the three weeks to get  all done.  When its done if you want to pursue the matter further then fine but the most important thing is the work being done  and  the only thing you will gain right now by engaging another solicitor in the short term is expense for yourself.

BTW he does not need the vacate from FA to register the purchase deed this can be done first followed by the vacate. He is right that he must get the vacate but if he never registered the FA mortgage in first place then the vacate itself does not need to be registered.


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## joanod (14 Apr 2008)

Sarahj,
AFAIK solrs have access to that info via a website to check up on dealings,...Im open to correction.





Madangan said:


> Some hope,
> 
> 
> So apart from getting the work completed now and hopefully an apology from the solicitor what else do you want.
> ...


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## mercman (14 Apr 2008)

What about a choice for the Solicitor, after he has finished. A 50% refund of the fees or a report to the Law Society. Please don't insult cowboys - those acting in this manner are Muppets.


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## joanod (14 Apr 2008)

I agree with you 100% Mercman, and no insult to cowboys intended.


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## mf1 (14 Apr 2008)

mercman said:


> What about a choice for the Solicitor, after he has finished. A 50% refund of the fees or a report to the Law Society. Please don't insult cowboys - those acting in this manner are Muppets.



Its not a good situation, it can happen, its not acceptable but really, why not just take him out and shoot him/her? 

This Hang Em High ***** irritates me - it is so deeply unhelpful. PM 1234 had very practical approach and somehope seems to have adopted/followed it through. It appears as if the matter will be resolved. I would imagine there has been an apology.

I don't think the above approach smacks of anything so much as bullying and thuggery by the small man wanting to throw his weight around and seeking to make an already difficult situation worse. 

The use of the words Cowboy and Muppets is truly inappropriate. 

mf


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## Petal (14 Apr 2008)

SarahJ,

I went to the Property Registration Authority webpage http://www.prai.ie/eng/ and sent them an email with my portfolio number and details and they got back to me quite quickly. Very friendly and helpful I found them, too.


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## joanod (14 Apr 2008)

Mf1,
I appreciate your sentiments but I wonder have you ever been kept awake nights worrying because of unacceptable/sloppy work by a solr, with unthinkable consequeences. If people display a complete disregard for professionalism, what else would you call them. If you are in a position of trust then you should respect it, and carry out your work accordingly. Not in a slip shod manner as is prcticed by many. To protect the profession they should be weeded out and the only avenue at this time is the Law Society. This may be ??? a genuine case or it may not who knows? but a sure way of finding out and keep the offender on their toes is to report them.
IMO this sloppy behaviour is rampant.


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## mf1 (14 Apr 2008)

If you ever go onto websites like ratemysolicitor.com ( or whatever it is) you will very quickly form the view that
(a) many of the posters are barking mad
and
(b) many of their complaints are completely unjustified.

Many of the comments on this site/this post, fall into similar brackets. For many people, it is an opportunity to vent their deeply held views in an unbalanced and offensive manner. It is the nature of anonymous websites.

On a decent, mostly thoughtful, and very helpful  website like this one, it is to my mind far more helpful for the average poster to get a balanced, "stand back and work it out" approach rather than the Hang Em High road.

mf


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## Welfarite (14 Apr 2008)

mf1 said:


> If you ever go onto websites like ratemysolicitor.com ( or whatever it is) you will very quickly form the view that
> (a) many of the posters are barking mad
> and
> (b) many of their complaints are completely unjustified.
> ...


 
Hear, hear


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## sam h (14 Apr 2008)

Have to agree with mf1 - it seems like the solicitor has attempted to rectify the situation once they were made aware.  Mistakes happen. It's how they are dealt with once the issue is brought to their attention.   

Don't worry, champagne doesn't go off that quickly!


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## mercman (14 Apr 2008)

sam, maybe, but the OP tried to contact the solicitor 'numerous' times. There is no excuse for blatant ignorance, especially when it has been paid for.


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## somehope (14 Apr 2008)

Hi all,

I do intend to give the solicitor the chance to sort it out.  If it is, then I will not take the matter any further.  I do appreciate and agree that the legal profession here in Ireland leaves a lot to be desired but I don't have confidence in the Law Society to do anything worthwhile and instructing another solicitor in my view, is just perpetuating a bad system.

But, I will go to hell and high water if he is not good to his word.

I'll post the results to let everyone know the (hopefully) final outcome.

many thanks for all the good advice everyone .


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## somehope (14 Apr 2008)

Btw, I agree with Petal, everyone should check the state of their property registrations.  It is very simple if you live/are in Dublin.  First check the Land Registry, if registered there don't bother with the Registry of Deeds.  If not registered in the LR, then you will have to check out the RoD.


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## deedee80 (15 Apr 2008)

I feel for you Somehope as the exact same thing happened to me (I posted loads of queries on here about it).  We discovered it when we went to sell our apartment and things then spiralled into one massive mess.  Our new solicitors were excellent and really earnt their money in sorting out the mess but the whole thing caused undue stress. We got a refund for everything we were charged that was not carried out (after much battling) and the new solicitor then used the money to register the deeds etc.  We were lucky that we only had the apartment a year as the maps etc for our apartment were not correct (our apartment was not on them!) so this involved having to go back to the builders solicitor etc who were less than helpful. It was some consolation that more time had not lapsed.  Best of luck, it will all be sorted in the end.


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## annemarief8 (17 Apr 2008)

this happened to my parents on the purchase of their home in 1973.

only came to light in 2006 when they tried to sell.

origianl solicitor, dublin 4 firm still in existence, refused point blank to help..they have receipts etc from the sols at the time.

contacted irish permanent (parents redeemed the mortgage within a 3 month time frame) we still had the origianl bank book etc with all mortgage details in it.  they said because it was repaid so quickly they would never have bothered about the registration and the sols would have still had the deeds after only 3 months.

sols eventually sent a letter saying they only kept documnets for 8 years therfore they wouldn't have them anymore!!

we contacted law society and after seeking more clarification from us they wrote to say they were looking into the original solicitors but that legally they were not required to hold docs longer than 8 years!!

NOOO....but they were legally required to register the deeds and the mortgage!!

current solicitor is as lax and slow and really appears to be unhappy to pursue another solicitor. 

tryinng to convince my parents to switch sols but they are afraid of jeopardising things as it has been so long going on. they really want to sell up and buy apt in Florida but are stuck here because no deeds!!


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## Dee101 (17 Apr 2008)

They are only legally obliged to keep a FILE for a certain amount of time - but is this their argument for not having the deeds to your parents house?? They can't just get rid or lose (sorry to say but this seems to be most likely what has happened) a set of deeds to a house!!. Did they give an explanation as to what they think was done with them or just that they simply don't have them and thats it?! If they were given to them in trust then they must provide an explanation as to what they did with them, its simply not good enough for them to say they "just don't have them"

Your parents should definitely get a new Solicitor if he is not able to resolve this for them and they should put more pressure on the Law Society. Its a very serious situation if they have in fact lost the deeds. There is a way to build the title again from scratch but its takes an awful lot of time and effort.

Have your parents/Solicitor checked with the Land Registry to see what they have to say about it?

My heart goes out to your parents. To think that their retirement plans are being ruined because of this. Really hope its resolved for them soon.


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## tabris6ie (17 Apr 2008)

Just bear in mind the land registry can also take their time about updating information received in from the solicitors. Just make sure that if he comes back with a dealing number, keep following him up until you get a folio number. he'll be issued with the dealing number once he submits the information but queries can go back and forth between the solicitor and the land reg, if the land reg have queries, and solicitors have been known to be slow about responding to the queries. Once he gets the dealing number, you can ring through to the land reg and double check yourself to make sure he fully completes it


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## gnubbit (17 Apr 2008)

mf1 said:


> I
> The use of the words Cowboy and Muppets is truly inappropriate.
> 
> mf



I can understand that anyone involved in the profession is offended by insults like "cowboy" or "muppet".  But I can see why titles such as those would be applied.  Whle it is probably a small minority of the legal profession who have acted unprofessionally, that is enough to instil fear and distrust in the general public, for whom Law is already an unfamiliar area.  As far as I am aware, the legal profession is one the few (or only?) profession that still self-regulates - I believe this leaves the whole profession vulnerable to the incompetence/dishonesty of a few.


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## Vanilla (18 Apr 2008)

gnubbit said:


> I can understand that anyone involved in the profession is offended by insults like "cowboy" or "muppet". But I can see why titles such as those would be applied. Whle it is probably a small minority of the legal profession who have acted unprofessionally, that is enough to instil fear and distrust in the general public, for whom Law is already an unfamiliar area. As far as I am aware, the legal profession is one the few (or only?) profession that still self-regulates - I believe this leaves the whole profession vulnerable to the incompetence/dishonesty of a few.


 
I don't think it is true to say either that the legal profession self-regulates or that all the others are not self-regulatory. I and others have posted before on the actual mechanisms of regulation of solicitors which already include a board made up of both solicitors and non-solicitors and appeals to court etc. Also shortly to come is the ombudsman which is largely welcomed by the members of the law society, myself included. This is not because I think that regulation to date is flawed but because public perception of it is- law must be done AND seen to be done.


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## mercman (18 Apr 2008)

Yet another case of legal malfunction. I find it very difficult to understand as to how anybody can defend the legal profession like Vanilla does. Tabris, the property trasaction occured in 1973 - it doesn't wash that 35 years later to even try and apportion blame on the Land Registry. Coupled with this, files can be removed after 8 years if the matters are closed. In the case with annemarie, her parents as mentioned transacted the property in 1973. The file was not closed - it's just a case of pure incompetence of the solicitors acting for the persons concerned. And to add insult to injury the Law Society, who appear even more useless, quote the matter as already mentioned that there is no requirement to hold files after 8 years. When, if ever, will the legal profession stand up and be counted and admit there are failings in their systems, their members and rules and regulations. God we all wait for the day when they admit thay this self regulation is flawed and yes there are mistakes which simply cannot be swept under a thick pile carpet.


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## Vanilla (18 Apr 2008)

mercman you are jumping on posts without merit. I posted simply saying that 1. the publics concept that the law society is entirely self-regulated at present is flawed and 2. I welcome an independant ombudsman being appointed. Where did I defend the actions of the individual solicitors complained of here? Also you are jumping on someone elses post saying they are blaming the land registry for delays since 1973- that is patently not what they said. Maybe you should re-read posts as they actually are, not what you would like them to be.


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## gnubbit (18 Apr 2008)

Vanilla said:


> I don't think it is true to say either that the legal profession self-regulates or that all the others are not self-regulatory. I and others have posted before on the actual mechanisms of regulation of solicitors which already include a board made up of both solicitors and non-solicitors and appeals to court etc. Also shortly to come is the ombudsman which is largely welcomed by the members of the law society, myself included. This is not because I think that regulation to date is flawed but because public perception of it is- law must be done AND seen to be done.



I stand corrected.  I guess what the legal profession needs is some better PR   The ombudsman is a good idea and I'm sure all those who bring credit to the profession will welcome that development.  

BTW, I belong to a profession that no longer self-regulates.  I welcomed this development as sadly, we have a few bad apples of our own.  I can't call them Muppets as I love Kermie and Co, (Off topic here, but this is guaranteed to cheer you up if you're having a bad day).


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## Bronte (18 Apr 2008)

I wonder what would happen if you didn't have to pay your solicitor until the property was registered?  Amazingly enough I think the whole process would be cleaned up overnight and they'd be registed in double quick time.  
I can accept the 1973 case but 2001 for Somehope and Petal 2 years.  A firm breaking into two should not be an excuse for not doing the job you are paid to do.  I mean for goodness sake that is the job !  As Ireland is so small it's also very difficult to get a solicitor to take on another solicitor -  defeaning silence to this last point from the solicitors on here.   
Somehope your best bet is to continue with the current solicitor he certainly owes it to you to get it speedily sorted out.  If you have to go to another solicitor I certainly hope the first solicitor will be paying the costs.


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## tabris6ie (18 Apr 2008)

apologies for trebling up on messages, wouldnt allow me to delete


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## tabris6ie (18 Apr 2008)

My comment in relation to the land registry was in response to them hoping that the solicitor was going to have this sorted in the next two weeks, that it might not be possible to sort it that quickly, I wasnt referring to the original registration.


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## tabris6ie (18 Apr 2008)

Has anyone had a similar experience with title insurance?


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## mercman (18 Apr 2008)

tabris6ie, I was not apportioning blame to the Land Registry in this case. Whilst they can take an inordinate amount of time, they are in the hands of the information that has been provided to them.They are Civil Servants and therefore have no interest in having matters messed up.  My terminology may have been out of character in this respect, but they are as good as the information they get.


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## tabris6ie (19 Apr 2008)

my point was, this case is unlikely to be sorted in two weeks....


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## gidxl03 (23 Apr 2008)

*Re: Solicitor failed to register deeds / Tax Implications*

I encountered a similar problem - when I redeemed my mortgage I found out that it had taken 5 years to register the deeds. I was deciding whether to sell my PPR or rent it out for a few years before selling.  A big factor in the decision was the amount of CGT that would have to be paid.  The calculation is (total_time - time as PPR) / (total_time) x 0.2 x salePrice. The kicker was that my new solicitor advised that the time as PPR did not count until the deeds were registered.  Therefore my tax liability would be much greater if I was to rent it out. By selling it immediately, I could avoid a tax dispute.  So I sold in May 2006.  Can anyone confirm the tax implications of the registration delay?  Will it affect Somehope?


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## Liar's Poker (23 Apr 2008)

Nonsence, my understanding of CGT is ownership runs from the date of the contact (or deed) for purchase to contract (or deed) for sale. Regisration of title is optional. banks insist on it to protect their interests. One thing that the Michael Lynn debacle exposed was the bank's lax attitudes to follow up registrations and the return of deeds. It's a cliche but possession really is 9/10ths of the law. Home owners own reponsibility to ensure that their title is registered.


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## Vanilla (23 Apr 2008)

*Re: Solicitor failed to register deeds / Tax Implications*



gidxl03 said:


> I encountered a similar problem - when I redeemed my mortgage I found out that it had taken 5 years to register the deeds. I was deciding whether to sell my PPR or rent it out for a few years before selling. A big factor in the decision was the amount of CGT that would have to be paid. The calculation is (total_time - time as PPR) / (total_time) x 0.2 x salePrice. The kicker was that my new solicitor advised that the time as PPR did not count until the deeds were registered. Therefore my tax liability would be much greater if I was to rent it out. By selling it immediately, I could avoid a tax dispute. So I sold in May 2006.  Can anyone confirm the tax implications of the registration delay? Will it affect Somehope?


 
Date of registration is irrelevant in relation to CGT- date of acquisition is technically teh date of the contract.

On an aside the fact that registration has gone on for five years might have nothing to do with the solicitor as in some cases mapping delays have meant up to five years or longer delay actually in the Property Registration Authority itself


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## gidxl03 (24 Apr 2008)

Thanks for the confirmation, good to see that common sense applies in this matter.


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