# Are we becoming a nation of Begrudgers?



## MANTO (23 Dec 2009)

So called Celtic Tiger...
Everybody loving life....

Recession hit...

Maybe its just me but i am sick and tired of people commenting about others actions..

Oh look at them going on holiday in a recession
Oh look at them buying a new wardrobe in a recession 

and so on...

Rant over.


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## liaconn (23 Dec 2009)

I think this is all driven by the public sector/private sector antagonism that has been manufactured and promoted by the media, the government, IBEC and others. People in the Private Sector, seeing public servants objecting to pay cuts get annoyed when they see a teacher or civil servant going on holidays or getting a new kitchen. Public Servants, constantly hearing how everyone in the private sector is losing their job or taking pay cuts get fed up when they see a private sector worker buying a new car or taking the kids to Disneyland. Basically, we all think the 'other side' is lying through their teeth about their circumstances and this is 'proof' that they're better off than they are letting on.


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## Caveat (23 Dec 2009)

Sounds about right Liaconn. 



> ...public sector/private sector antagonism *that has been manufactured and promoted by the media, the government, IBEC and* *others.*


 
Apart from that part which I don't agree with.

But I think the Irish are begrudgers anyway and don't need an excuse or particular circumstances.


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## liaconn (23 Dec 2009)

Well, I don't agree with your second sentence, nah nah!


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## Teatime (23 Dec 2009)

Caveat said:


> But I think the Irish are begrudgers anyway and don't need an excuse or particular circumstances.


 
Absolutely true.


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## TarfHead (23 Dec 2009)

This morning my sister in law and her husband jetted off to spend Christmas in Florida. He's in the ESB.

Whether jealousy or begrudgery, I sure feel something.


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## Graham_07 (23 Dec 2009)

TarfHead said:


> This morning my sister in law and her husband jetted off to spend Christmas in Florida. He's in the ESB.
> 
> Whether jealousy or begrudgery, *I sure feel something*.


 
Cold perhaps brrrrr.


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## Firefly (23 Dec 2009)

TarfHead said:


> This morning my sister in law and her husband jetted off to spend Christmas in Florida. He's in the ESB.


 
To be honest, if he has a well-paid, secure job then he's right!


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## delgirl (23 Dec 2009)

I don't understand this begrudgery business - if someone works hard and chooses to spend their money on a holiday or a car, all I can say is more power to them.

A friend of mine got a new 5 series BMW for Christmas with customised number plate during the Celtic Tiger years.  She has 5 sisters who aren't as well off as she is.  She and her husband have worked extremely hard for what they have and nothing was handed to them on a plate.

Not one of the sisters congratulated her on the car and said good luck with it.  She's not the type of person to rub anyone's nose in it either.  Just plain begrudgery.

I think I got a box of Ferrero Rocher that year , but I went for a spin in the car, told her it was great and best of luck with it.


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## MandaC (23 Dec 2009)

I got my new Car in March 09 and have had some nasty comments and random people cutting me up, sticking up fingers etc..  I had a couple of new cars during the Celtic Tiger years, but this is the first time I have had negative feedback. Have also had comments like, its well for you being able to get that, no recession in your house, etc.  

A friend got an 09 small jeep and parked it in a shopping centre undergound car park and when he came back someone had got a key and swirled millions of circles on the bonnet.  It was absolutely destroyed.  So much so, I became paranoid about parking the stupid car anywhere.

Have had begrudger type comments about a holiday I had, about clothes I bought and about other things.  

I am lucky that I have a job and I am going to keep living as normal, until my job goes. If people dont do that, the country will never get back on its feet.   If my job goes, and it could, then I will just have to do something else. 

Having said that, I did comment about no recession myself today and had a mini rant to myself, because I could not get past Liffey Valley Shopping Centre with the amount of people in the car park.  They seem to be spending too.


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## BONDGIRL (23 Dec 2009)

I agree with first poster... sick to death of it and it actually has caused a good optimistic person (ME) start to slip into depression and worry...  Why? Because of other people around me...  can I add most of these people are working and getting good wages!   I was made redundant end of Nov and I have a pain in my butt with people asking me "when are you getting a job"... eh hello I am actually out of work 23 days now, thats all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I have worked for 14 yrs so I am taken a break, to get my head together, to enjoy some time with my family and to SLOW down for a little while.  To exercise more, find myself again and not be part of the rat race for a couple of months.  Of course I can see their point in some regards, as I mean its not as if I can just go on like this forever, but for now, I am comfortable with money, very clever with savings and redundancy money and I can make it last.. I am not rushing out spending, I am just using the FREE time to enjoy my life and stop rushing...   but people JUST dont get it!!!


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## BONDGIRL (23 Dec 2009)

Tarfhead - Fair play to your sister!!!!  Only I wouldnt leave immediate family for xmas I would be gone too!!! two weeks of relaxing away from this cold ! if you have it SPENT it people and maybe this country will get back to the "good ole days"


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## roro123 (24 Dec 2009)

The Irish begrudgery that we all experience is part of the psyche of being irish, where the blatant unfairness that is built into our society by various concessions given to the few wealthy or well connected in law, taxation, influence, unions promotional prospects etc , insert a suspicion that the success being achieved by the begrudgee must have entailed some exploitation or receiving of favours, backhanders etc. When a proper hardworking individual does achieve success or perceived success they unfortunately get lumped in with the same strata of the population. Unfortunately the begrudgers can't aim it at the right people. Who here wouldn't begrudge michael fingletons pension and bonus arrangements? or lax approaches to planning,or bringing the churches to account, or the taoiseach being paid more than most world leaders? The list  is endless and so is the begrudgery.


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## Firehead (24 Dec 2009)

Fair play to you Bondgirl, that's the right attitude to have, touch wood the recession hasn't hit us in a major way, I work in public sector and husband works in private sector, yes we've taken a pay cut which has ment we're down about €120 per week but we've cut down on our spending accordingly, and yes we alse get the digs from "friends" etc about how our lifestyle hasn't changed but as the saying goes "f$ck the begrudgers".


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## Lex Foutish (24 Dec 2009)

I think it's almost impossible to fully get across the notion of Irish begrudgery to anyone who didn't grow up in a rural setting. I could write a book on it.


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## Graham_07 (24 Dec 2009)

" 'tis fine for some " 4 words that drive me mad.


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## Lex Foutish (24 Dec 2009)

My favourite begrudgery quote is a Cork one.... _*"I wouldn't like it!" *_


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## PyritePete (24 Dec 2009)

MandaC said:


> I got my new Car in March 09 and have had some nasty comments and random people cutting me up, sticking up fingers etc.. I had a couple of new cars during the Celtic Tiger years, but this is the first time I have had negative feedback.
> 
> 
> In the Times at the start of the year in the whats hot & not column - whats not is to buy a 09 car ???!!!
> ...


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## olddog (24 Dec 2009)

<I>"Are we becoming a nation of Begrudgers?"</I>

OP is a bit slow then

"we" have been a nation of Begrudgers for many decades


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## buzybee (27 Dec 2009)

I find that the same people who drank loads on nights out etc, and squandered their money can be very snide when others who don't really drink go on nice hols and change their car.  It seems the only acceptable way to spend money is going to the pub & getting langers.  

Are anyone's parents among the begrudgers??

I am 37, am on mat leave and took a few wks unpaid.  My parents particularly my father made a big deal of it.  The begrudgery is unreal.  My husband and I are civil servants.  I only earn 500 gross a week, so by the time I have childminder paid and parking etc, I won't get loads of money by going back to work.  

Also when I was made redundant from previous job 3 yrs ago, my mother was continually worried on my behalf about trying to get something else immediately.  This was despite the fact that I had my own house rented out, was living in DH house and had some modest savings.  Oh as well as having worked full time since I was 21 and part time since I was 14!!!

I thing people hate to see anyone enjoying life or being a happy person, not to mind others having more things.  The flip side is that people would be inclined to look down on you if you had a small house, drove a broken down car and dressed shabbily.  The begrudgers would not want to associate with you as they would think you had nothing!!!


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## DublinTexas (29 Dec 2009)

I work hard and as a single person large chunks of my hard earned salary are going to the state to be distributed to the less fortunate ones or to provide services I mostly can’t or won’t use and while I complain about it, I think it’s needed, even if we could save some money by modernizing our public infra-structure.

The money that is left at the end of all deductions is there to support me and to enjoy my life for which I work hard. If I decide I want to go out 2 times a week to Dinner or have a long holiday in faraway destinations than that is my right and nobody has the right to complain about it.

Just because it’s recession does not mean that I should stop living or hide my life style, it’s my life style that keeps my cleaning lady, my gardener, my travel agent and a couple of restaurant staff in gainful employment. 

Sure, I also reduced some outgoings by saving more (just in case I also will be unfortunate), I now pay for an additional unemployment insurance and I pay more to my retirement fund, but overall I will not reduce my life just because people around me (who ran off getting unrealistic mortgages) are complaining about me. 

If they wish to do my job and see large chunks of their money go to the state, they are welcome to apply, I know we have a couple of jobs in the same salary level we can’t fill because we can’t find qualified candidates.


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## upport (29 Dec 2009)

According to my father and his father its an Irish trait and has been evident for generations maybe even since the Garden of Eden (particularly if there were two or more Irish people there).....I say ignore the begrugers and do your own thing.


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## Purple (30 Dec 2009)

upport said:


> According to my father and his father its an Irish trait and has been evident for generations maybe even since the Garden of Eden (particularly if there were two or more Irish people there).....I say ignore the begrugers and do your own thing.



+1 

Begrudgery is our natural state. It’s a national characteristic, just as desirable as alcoholism or child abuse and may hold us back more than ever.
The Celtic Tiger turned out to be a paper tiger but, for a few years, it gave us a glimpse of what could be if we work hard and stop taking such pleasure in the misfortune of others. Now we are back to resenting the hell out of those who have more than us despite the fact that they probably work harder and are smarter than we are. It’s like the last ten years just didn’t happen.


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## Bazoo (6 Jan 2010)

DublinTexas said:


> I work hard and large chunks of my hard earned salary are going to the state to be distributed to the less fortunate ones or to provide services I mostly can’t or won’t use and while I complain about it, I think it’s needed, even if we could save some money by modernizing our public infra-structure.
> 
> The money that is left at the end of all deductions is there to support me and to enjoy my life for which I work hard. If I decide I want to go out 2 times a week to Dinner or have a long holiday in faraway destinations than that is my right and nobody has the right to complain about it.
> 
> ...



My sentiments exactly. Nicely put DublinTexas.

I had several conversations about this over Christmas with various people who feel that (despite their hard work over the past years) they can't justify buying a new car, or make any other similar financially conspicuous outlay, because of how it might make others feel. To me, this attitude beggars belief. I work incredibly hard. Before that, I studied incredibly hard and (at the risk of sounding sanctimonious) was careful throughout that entire period of education not to get into debt. To feel I have to defend how I spend my hard earned money in my free because of the begrudgers out there, really really bugs me.


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## Bronte (7 Jan 2010)

MandaC said:


> I got my new Car in March 09 and have had some nasty comments and random people cutting me up, sticking up fingers etc.. .


 
That's really really nasty.  Shocking.  What a dreadful way to behave.  

I thought the boom would have changed the mindset in Ireland.  That we had moved forward in our thinking.  

We've been told by several people that we don't know how lucky we are being abroad, no one ever mentioned that to us during the boom.  One relation was really angry with us for not understanding what it was like not to have a job as though it was our fault for the decisions they had taken in life.


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## MandaC (7 Jan 2010)

Bronte said:


> That's really really nasty.  Shocking.  What a dreadful way to behave.
> 
> I thought the boom would have changed the mindset in Ireland.  That we had moved forward in our thinking.
> 
> We've been told by several people that we don't know how lucky we are being abroad, no one ever mentioned that to us during the boom.  One relation was really angry with us for not understanding what it was like not to have a job as though it was our fault for the decisions they had taken in life.



Wait till this years car arrives - it will be more of the same.

DublinTexas has the right idea allright.  I actually find most of the begrudgers are people who did well in Celtic Tiger, but have now had to cut back, while it would appear to them that some others haven't.  The kind of "how can she still afford that and I cant" mentality.


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## PyritePete (7 Jan 2010)

MandaC said:


> Wait till this years car arrives - it will be more of the same.
> 
> DublinTexas has the right idea allright. I actually find most of the begrudgers are people who did well in Celtic Tiger, but have now had to cut back, while it would appear to them that some others haven't. The kind of "how can she still afford that and I cant" mentality.


 
that was my point MandaC, I should have put it across better. I am not a begrudger, if you have done well or been lucky in life, well all the best. 

Live and let live


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## RMCF (7 Jan 2010)

There is definitely more people who feel its ok to complain about everything these days.

Take the recent awful weather. We now have people on the radio and news complaining that the pavements around the country aren't gritted. The frigging pavements !! So they expect all the pavements in the country to be gritted. Whatever happened to taking care and going easy on them when they are slippy? Thats what would have been said when I was younger, but now people feel they just want everything, and don't seem to realise the logistics and cost involved in this recent bad weather.

We are being told this is the worst cold spell since 1981. Now, I was 13 in that year and vaguely remember the cold weather. But I doubt that we got wall to wall TV and radio coverage of it, with 24hr running news stories, and people complaining about the fact that their pavements were slippery !!

Sometimes I despair for the country when so many are so bloody helpless.


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## callybags (8 Jan 2010)

RMCF said:


> There is definitely more people who feel its ok to complain about everything these days.
> 
> Take the recent awful weather. We now have people on the radio and news complaining that the pavements around the country aren't gritted. The frigging pavements !! So they expect all the pavements in the country to be gritted. Whatever happened to taking care and going easy on them when they are slippy? Thats what would have been said when I was younger, but now people feel they just want everything, and don't seem to realise the logistics and cost involved in this recent bad weather.
> 
> ...


 
A big +1.

I have never seen a generation of more mollycoddled, helpless people.


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## Bronte (8 Jan 2010)

If everybody got out today or say the weekend and took a snow shovel and brush and took all the snow from off their pavements then that would be people helping themselves and each other.

A campaign to get everyone to clear their own pavements and shops too.  If everyone did their bit it would make the world a better place.  Wouldn't that be a nice thing for everybody to do.  Kind of the UK war spirit.

MandyC I can't believe you're getting a new car one year after the other one, whatever for?  I treated myself to a new car 4 years ago and it's going strong, can't bear parting with the money  so no new car for me but I could if I wanted to   I'm going to buy a new dressing table and maybe double glazing though    Should  have got the double glazing in last year but can afford the heating and have two duvets plus hot water bottle and hubby who is going around in shorts with the amount of heat in the house and bed


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## Purple (8 Jan 2010)

Bronte said:


> MandyC I can't believe you're getting a new car one year after the other one, whatever for?


Maybe she likes cars and can afford to change every year?


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## RMCF (8 Jan 2010)

Bronte said:


> If everybody got out today or say the weekend and took a snow shovel and brush and took all the snow from off their pavements then that would be people helping themselves and each other.
> 
> A campaign to get everyone to clear their own pavements and shops too.  If everyone did their bit it would make the world a better place.  Wouldn't that be a nice thing for everybody to do.  Kind of the UK war spirit.
> 
> MandyC I can't believe you're getting a new car one year after the other one, whatever for?  I treated myself to a new car 4 years ago and it's going strong, can't bear parting with the money  so no new car for me but I could if I wanted to   I'm going to buy a new dressing table and maybe double glazing though    Should  have got the double glazing in last year but can afford the heating and have two duvets plus hot water bottle and hubby who is going around in shorts with the amount of heat in the house and bed



I cleared my own pavement and driveway in the street last week. It took approx 2hrs and it was hard work as there was about an inch of solid ice covering it all.

Only one other person did it in the street.

But why would all the lazy good-for-nothings get off their arses and do that, when you can just sit in front of the TV and moan about it to anyone they meet? Or better still, call into a radio show and vent your anger at the fact that this useless Gov hasn't gritted the front of my house.


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## Complainer (9 Jan 2010)

RMCF said:


> There is definitely more people who feel its ok to complain about everything these days.
> 
> Take the recent awful weather. We now have people on the radio and news complaining that the pavements around the country aren't gritted. The frigging pavements !! So they expect all the pavements in the country to be gritted. Whatever happened to taking care and going easy on them when they are slippy? Thats what would have been said when I was younger, but now people feel they just want everything, and don't seem to realise the logistics and cost involved in this recent bad weather.


The pavement issue is a very valid point. We seem to live in a car-centric society, where the needs of anyone who uses public transport or (god forbid) walks or cycles is largely ignored, and generally given much lower priority than car users.

There is a very valid point here in relation to the priority and resources dedicated to keeping the roads free, while ignoring paths and pedestrians.

I would agree with the general point about personal responsibility to keep your own pavement clear, but unless/until this is implemented in law, pedestrians are left navigating treacherous ice rinks regardless of how much care they take. I had one fall yesterday in Dublin city centre, and I was taking it easy and taking care.


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## liaconn (9 Jan 2010)

There was an item on the news yesterday (already mentioned on another thread) about the fact that, if you clear the space outside your gate and someone has an accident because of the way you cleared it, you could be legally responsible. That's hardly going to encourage people to get out with their spades and brushes and try to be helpful.


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## Complainer (9 Jan 2010)

liaconn said:


> There was an item on the news yesterday (already mentioned on another thread) about the fact that, if you clear the space outside your gate and someone has an accident because of the way you cleared it, you could be legally responsible. That's hardly going to encourage people to get out with their spades and brushes and try to be helpful.


Yep - the legal principle is known as 'feasance' afaik - same applies to potholes - see http://www.goreyguardian.ie/news/car-damaged-by-a-pothole-take-it-up-with-god-1639372.html

I don't know if a court would really, really allow a claim against a householder in such circumstances. The courts have been generally sensible on compo decisions recently.


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## peelaaa (12 Jan 2010)

MANTO said:


> So called Celtic Tiger...
> Everybody loving life....
> 
> Recession hit...
> ...


 
Becoming!!


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## Teatime (12 Jan 2010)

callybags said:


> A big +1.
> 
> I have never seen a generation of more mollycoddled, helpless people.


 
Agree. All some people want to do these days is blame others. 

People in my workplace putting down "force majeure" on timesheets last week when not turning up for work. Aparently it means an Act of God and we are entitled to 3 days a year or some such. My company probably wont be solvent by end of year, what will they put on timesheets then?


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## Bronte (13 Jan 2010)

RMCF said:


> I cleared my own pavement and driveway in the street last week. It took approx 2hrs and it was hard work as there was about an inch of solid ice covering it all.
> 
> .


 
We did that last Saturday, in freezing temperatures, I though it would be too cold to do but I had to take off my coat the work made me so hot.  Only real exercise I got as I don't like cycling or walking in cold weather.

I put down salt for the pedestrains and have swept it after freezes etc since and put down more salt.  If people don't have snow boots they can put a pair of large socks over their shoes to prevent slipping.

I heard a Minister on the radio saying that people who cleared paths would not be liable if someone fell.


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## Latrade (13 Jan 2010)

The major shift I've noticed in begrudgery is that you're now made to feel guilty about being in employment and that you have to think twice about mentioning anything at all to do with work in any negative aspect. 

Is it fair to say that's begrudgery? I dunno, maybe that's harsh, it's just it isn't my fault that I've still got a job, so why should I be made to feel guilty?


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## Purple (13 Jan 2010)

jaybird said:


> What generation is that then? It seems to be older people who do most of the moaning and whinging, nobody I know under thirty goes in for much bitching about the government and all, or for that matter for much begrudgery. Its the 40+ generation that seem to be the driving force there.....



I thought about that and yes, I think you are right.


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## Mpsox (13 Jan 2010)

Bronte said:


> We did that last Saturday, in freezing temperatures, I though it would be too cold to do but I had to take off my coat the work made me so hot. Only real exercise I got as I don't like cycling or walking in cold weather.
> 
> I put down salt for the pedestrains and have swept it after freezes etc since and put down more salt. If people don't have snow boots they can put a pair of large socks over their shoes to prevent slipping.
> 
> I heard a Minister on the radio saying that people who cleared paths would not be liable if someone fell.


 
Did the same myself and also cleared the path to the door, great exercise. John Gormly was the minister in question BTW

I grew up on top of a mountain in the middle on nowhere, we got snowed in on average every 4 years, we never expected the council to grit our roads, we just got on with life.  I just think the Celtic Tiger softies have unrealistic expectations. If you want your footpaths gritted, it costs money and the councils don't have it and if taxes were raised to pay for things like this, the same people would be on the whine line or txting radio shows moaning about taxes going up. Some people are never happy.


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## Bronte (13 Jan 2010)

Mpsox said:


> . John Gormly was the minister in question BTW
> 
> .


 
So there's the defense to the neighbours broken foot claim, the Minister said I wasn't liable for any accident caused by my clearing snow and ice.  He wasn't too hot in relation to who would/could be sued and who would pay for injuries in private estates though.


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## liaconn (13 Jan 2010)

I've seen people walking on the ice in high heels and flat pumps with no grip. If they fall and break their leg they would have some cheek to go looking for someone to sue.


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## Caveat (13 Jan 2010)

I think this is part of the problem.  People have to adapt - as alluded to in the other 'overreaction' thread.

There is a culture of "I want and I want it now and I deserve it".  People seem to expect to be able to continue their lives exactly in the way they want with no changes or allowances, regardless of the weather - or any other circumstances.  If it's cold, people should wrap up more warmly, *obviously* wear sensible footwear, make alternative arrangements for getting to work etc

But instead it's "no way am I going to work because I want to use my car and I can't; why am I so cold; why do I keep slipping; whose fault is it and who can I claim against?"


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## Complainer (14 Jan 2010)

Bronte said:


> So there's the defense to the neighbours broken foot claim, the Minister said I wasn't liable for any accident caused by my clearing snow and ice.  He wasn't too hot in relation to who would/could be sued and who would pay for injuries in private estates though.



Sensible guidance from IOSH UK is interesting here, given that our legal systems are quite similar.

http://www.iosh.co.uk/news_and_events/news/latest_member_news/iosh_gritting_guidance.aspx




jaybird said:


> What generation is that then? It seems to be older people who do most of the moaning and whinging, nobody I know under thirty goes in for much bitching about the government and all, or for that matter for much begrudgery. Its the 40+ generation that seem to be the driving force there.....



That's because the under 40s are generally 'under the influence' or 'off their heads' and don't get round to complaining.


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## Maximus152 (19 Jan 2010)

Becoming begrudgers...made me smile! Well that has been here way before the Celtic Tiger was even a cub.


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## DB74 (19 Jan 2010)

buzybee said:


> This was despite the fact that I had my own house rented out, was living in DH house and had some modest savings.


 
'Tis well for you with 2 houses!


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## RMCF (19 Jan 2010)

You only have to listen to that insufferable Joe Duffy programme to see that this country is packed full of crying gits.


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## Caveat (19 Jan 2010)

Complainer said:


> That's because the under 40s are generally 'under the influence' or 'off their heads' and don't get round to complaining.



I wish.


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## Birroc (20 Jan 2010)

jaybird said:


> What generation is that then? Its the 40+ generation that seem to be the driving force there.....


 
I don't agree with this at all, I believe it's endemic in Irish adults from any age and it is passed from one generation to the next in one form or another.


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## Maximus152 (20 Jan 2010)

Buzybee ... Also when I was made redundant from previous job 3 yrs ago, my mother was continually worried on my behalf about trying to get something else immediately. This was despite the fact that I had my own house rented out... wow You sound as if you have a lot to worry about! if thats your problems ... I would hate to listen to you when some real life crisis arrises. Made me feel uneasy and worried about the world we now live in when I read this tripe. Sorry in advance.


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## liaconn (20 Jan 2010)

When did Buzybee say it was a problem?  She was giving an example of begrudgery.


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## marshmallow (20 Jan 2010)

Maximus152 said:


> Buzybee ... Also when I was made redundant from previous job 3 yrs ago, my mother was continually worried on my behalf about trying to get something else immediately. This was despite the fact that I had my own house rented out... wow You sound as if you have a lot to worry about! if thats your problems ... I would hate to listen to you when some real life crisis arrises. Made me feel uneasy and worried about the world we now live in when I read this tripe. Sorry in advance.


 
Think you've missed the point - buzzybee was talking about her parent's attitude, not saying that she herself had problems!


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