# TEETU Dispute with the Electrical Contractors (REA's etc)



## thedaras (3 Jul 2009)

I know there is a thread about the electrians strike,but I think after listening to this guy today ,that it deserves a thread of its own.

All the people who were on the show tried to make this person see sense,but he wasnt listening,it was absolutly stunning to hear Devoy defend his postion.

A man from the union Devoy heads ,said he went to a meeting last night and told the union officials there that he would be happy to take a pay freeze or even a pay cut.This man said he would prefer to have a job than a pay rise which may only be of benifit to him for the short amount of time his now employer can keep him on.
He went on to say that he would not pass the pickets.

I believe this is because he CANNOT pass the pickets.The reason for this and I think it should the public domain,is that if members of this union do pass a picket ,the union can withdraw their membership,which means they will not be able to work anywhere!!Without this "card" they cannot be employed.
I feel this is the only reason many many members of this union will feel they are not in a position to pass.

Devoy came accross as condesending arrogant and ignorant.
This is not responsible leadership!!

When asked by a caller how he would pay his morgage etc,Devoy said there was strike pay! HELLO, thats the grand amount of 125e a week.

How will Devoy will feel when many many of his members are homeless and on the dole,due to imcompetent leadership.

I understand that electricians are frightened and worried about the outcome of the proposed strike.

Heres my two pence worth,employers should take them on,see how they survive on 125 a week,and those members can look to Devoy for the answer to all their problems,if they are stupid enough to go ahead with the strike they should suffer the consequences,but more importantly they should look for heads to roll.

I can clearly see that if people are not being treated properly/paid a fair wage,they should have the right to call their employers to task.

However when one is being paid a very good wage and there is the worst recession in history on,and you strike for a pay rise,well ,you deserve what you get.

If its true that the members of this union are not happy with their leadership they should do something about it and quickly.

Devoy also made making a profit sound like it was a dirty word,he has forgotton that if companys dont make a profit they will withdraw from this country like many before them.

I understand that Devoy just represents the members views but having listened to him today ,one wonders how out of touch this man is.There is a link below so you can hear it for yourself.

pod-v-030709-39m11s-livelinestrike.mp3


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## room305 (4 Jul 2009)

*Re: Eamon Devoy on Joe duffy today*

Electrician friend of mine travelled from Dublin to Cork airport last week on a promise of a day's contract work. Got frog marched off the site on arrival for not having a union card.

Now I ask you, what could a union do for a previously self-employed, currently unemployed contractor? 

But then, maybe that's the point.


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## markowitzman (4 Jul 2009)

*Re: Eamon Devoy on Joe duffy today*

Despite all you say Devoy is media savvy and will not be bullied and would inspire confidence in negotiations and would be delighted if he was negotiating on my behalf!
His interview on Morning Ireland was a case study of how to stick to your point and when in trouble stick to your guns and not be bullied by the interviewer.
The claim etc is not really of interest to me but his modus operandi was refreshingly simple direct and effective. The fact he was the main man on Joe Duffy exemplifies this.


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## thedaras (4 Jul 2009)

*Re: Eamon Devoy on Joe duffy today*



markowitzman said:


> Despite all you say Devoy is media savvy and will not be bullied and would inspire confidence in negotiations and would be delighted if he was negotiating on my behalf!
> His interview on Morning Ireland was a case study of how to stick to your point and when in trouble stick to your guns and not be bullied by the interviewer.
> The claim etc is not really of interest to me but his modus operandi was refreshingly simple direct and effective. The fact he was the main man on Joe Duffy exemplifies this.


 
Is that what you call ignorant,"media savvy"?

"Refreshingly simple and direct and effective" you say..I would think that just because one keeps repeating something ,refusing to give way in the face of reasonable argument ,call people "brothers",lead a group of people to strike and look for a pay rise in this enviorment shows:

No direction...what kind of leadership is this showing

Effective.......the backlash was incredible,he did the unions no favours

Simple...........Id agree with that,as one would have to be to lead people who are terrified of losing their jobs ,into strike mode.

What do you mean "the main man"? I doubt he would allow anyone else to do the talking..a lot of these union heads are on a power trip and as the last caller said ,theres an ego there.

Good negotiating isnt about sticking to your guns,that gets you no where.
And remember any electrician who passes the picket can have his card withdrawn and will not then be able to work anywhere,so if you were an electrician and even if you dont want to support this strike,what choice would they have?

 Its either pass the picket and perhaps lose you card hence you cant work.Or dont pass,and cause issues for your employer and hence maybe lose your job,the electrians are in a no win situation here.

However if 93% of them voted for strike,they deserve all they get.

I would love to know how many actually voted,in other words 93% of what number.

Anyone know how many people voted in the first place? I doubt very much that this information would be put in the public domain.


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## Chocks away (4 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*

Arthur Scargill started out with a small house and a big union. He finished up with a big house and a small union. How come some of these electricians cannot call unoffocial meetings for a show of hands? This should be easy to organise - email, text, mobile etc. And all pretty anonymous. Are they all too afraid? And then, if the response is positive (pun not intended), could they not start another union? Or at least get rid of this "legend in his own mind"?


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## thedaras (5 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



Chocks away said:


> Arthur Scargill started out with a small house and a big union. He finished up with a big house and a small union. How come some of these electricians cannot call unoffocial meetings for a show of hands? This should be easy to organise - email, text, mobile etc. And all pretty anonymous. Are they all too afraid? And then, if the response is positive (pun not intended), could they not start another union? Or at least get rid of this "legend in his own mind"?


 
Good points there,however if you were an electrician and you knew that you "card" (which is the only way electricians are allowed to work in Ireland,)could be pulled by the union,would anyone be brave enough to risk it?

And I understand one HAS to be a member of the TEEU to get this "card" which allows one to work in this country.(open to correction on this )

And thats the problem at the core of this issue,strike you lose,dont strike you lose.

Until the unions start to come accross as willing to negotiate based on current climate,they will just seem to be doing the country and its workers a diservice,they wont have public support if they contuinue blindly going into strike mode,imho , risking so many jobs.


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## Padraigb (5 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*

The members of the union voted (By a very large majority, I understand) for strike. So what is Eamon Devoy supposed to do -- ignore the wishes of the union's membership?


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## Nermal (5 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



thedaras said:


> Good points there,however if you were an electrician and you knew that you "card" (which is the only way electricians are allowed to work in Ireland,)could be pulled by the union,would anyone be brave enough to risk it?



As I understand it, if an employer tries to get someone without the card to do electrical work, his union guys will walk - so what's to stop the largest employers getting together and agreeing to hire non-unionised labour, creating a market for it? Seems like the obvious next step for them.


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## thedaras (5 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



Padraigb said:


> The members of the union voted (By a very large majority, I understand) for strike. So what is Eamon Devoy supposed to do -- ignore the wishes of the union's membership?


 
I hear what you are saying,and I agree he should not ignore the wishes of his members.

93% is a very large majority,however 93% of what number is the question I would like answered.

Whilst not ignoring the wishes of his members,there is surely a responsibility to guide and lead those members to a responsible outcome,ie;not striking or looking for a pay rise in this enviorment.Bearing in mind that he may have done just that,and the members/electricians still wanted to go ahead,and as I said in an earlier post,if this is the case then they deserve all that they wont get...

The way he came accross on the Joe Duffy show,did not show to me that he was looking for a comprimise,I think he came accross like a bull in a china shop.

There is a time and a place when strike action is required and thats fine ,but not now...?


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## thedaras (5 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



Nermal said:


> As I understand it, if an employer tries to get someone without the card to do electrical work, his union guys will walk - so what's to stop the largest employers getting together and agreeing to hire non-unionised labour, creating a market for it? Seems like the obvious next step for them.


 
I think this would be a step too far.There is a need/want for unions.

Thacher/wopping in the 80s would be an example of how that would turn out.Scab labour it what this was called.

Crafts are one of the biggest unions.

However if things contuinue the way they seem to be,it may be the only option,I hope not.


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## secman (6 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*

Thought I was listening to " Reeling in the Years" when I heard that Dinosaur on the radio last friday. The problem as I see it is that in many cases the interviewer is not up to speed on the matters. Dino kept referring to the increase that was ratified, this was eventually rejected by the Labour court in February after a prolonged fight by the newly formed NECI, who now represent more Contractors than the ECA and AECI. As far as I am aware all ECA & AECI firms are adhering to the current REA rates, not Dino's version of events. 
To insinuate that Contractors wish to engage race to the bottom and have sparks on minimum pay rates is like calling the Irish army a super power! Dino also referred to Contracors as being merely Employment Agencies !! This post will be deleted if not edited immediately wept, this was the really frightening aspect of Dino's arguement, the guy probably still thinks the earth is FLAT. 
Jack O'Connor on the Radio this morning was a disgrace. These guys were given too much power by Bertie as social partners and their Ego's are in melt down at he moment. Electrical Contractors are doing their utmost to secure works and to hold on to jobs, office staff have taken between 1 and 3 pay cuts to date to help the situation.
 And as regards to the ballot, i've spoken to about a dozen sparks over the last week and not one of them were balloted !
Secman


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## thedaras (6 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



secman said:


> Thought I was listening to " Reeling in the Years" when I heard that Dinosaur on the radio last friday. The problem as I see it is that in many cases the interviewer is not up to speed on the matters. Dino kept referring to the increase that was ratified, this was eventually rejected by the Labour court in February after a prolonged fight by the newly formed NECI, who now represent more Contractors than the ECA and AECI. As far as I am aware all ECA & AECI firms are adhering to the current REA rates, not Dino's version of events.
> To insinuate that Contractors wish to engage race to the bottom and have sparks on minimum pay rates is like calling the Irish army a super power! Dino also referred to Contracors as being merely Employment Agencies !! This post will be deleted if not edited immediately wept, this was the really frightening aspect of Dino's arguement, the guy probably still thinks the earth is FLAT.
> Jack O'Connor on the Radio this morning was a disgrace. These guys were given too much power by Bertie as social partners and their Ego's are in melt down at he moment. Electrical Contractors are doing their utmost to secure works and to hold on to jobs, office staff have taken between 1 and 3 pay cuts to date to help the situation.
> And as regards to the ballot, i've spoken to about a dozen sparks over the last week and not one of them were balloted !
> Secman


WOW,couldnt have put it better myself!

A friend of mine was at work today,where there are NO contractor electricians and next thing she looked out the window and there were the pickets!! 
She has no idea who they are! OR why they are there! the company is not involved in the strike!!


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## Mpsox (6 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*

not all of the electricians have gone on strike as not all of them are members of the TEEU, i know our our outsourced property/facility suppliers where I work have no electricians on strike today as they are non-unionised


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## ludermor (6 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



Padraigb said:


> The members of the union voted (By a very large majority, I understand) for strike. So what is Eamon Devoy supposed to do -- ignore the wishes of the union's membership?


 
 A lot of the people who voted are currently unemployed so its not exactly a inconvienence for them!


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## ludermor (6 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



Nermal said:


> As I understand it, if an employer tries to get someone without the card to do electrical work, his union guys will walk - so what's to stop the largest employers getting together and agreeing to hire non-unionised labour, creating a market for it? Seems like the obvious next step for them.


 

Then all the rest of the unions will down tools and all jobs will come to a halt, to date the rest of the unions havent commited, i think siptu have stated they will stop work for 1 day but that  is all.


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## ludermor (6 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*

Another thing which has tobe noted is the fact that other unions ( blocklayers and carpenters) are renegiotiating there rate at the minute with individual contractors with  aview to getting a standardised reduction in the rates. They have accepted at least a 20% deduction on the rates. It will be interesting to see if they will row in behind the TEEU


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## smiley (6 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



thedaras said:


> A friend of mine was at work today,where there are NO contractor electricians and next thing she looked out the window and there were the pickets!!
> She has no idea who they are! OR why they are there! the company is not involved in the strike!!



Whats the story with these people picketing Diageo and Cadbury today?? This is truely ridiculous. Diageo had to get an injunction against them.


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## thedaras (6 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*

Dont know what the story is there.

The girl I know works for a company in Cork.

She tells me there are electricians there who are TEEU members ,so possibly she was wrong .


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## Shawady (7 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*

I thought this was just a one day stoppage but have heard this morning it is entering it's second day.
Are the electricians on strike indefinitely?


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## z104 (7 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*

I'm normally against strikes but are these people owed money? If they are really owed money then should they not be given what they're owed?

From what I gather they had an agreement but I stand corrected.


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## secman (7 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*

You stand corrected, at the last session in the Labour court in Feb 09 , the claim was ultimately rejected. The other problem here is , whilst the TEEU are only recognising two Employer bodies ie ECA & AECI, there is in fact a 3rd Body , namely NECI.  NECI which was only formed over the last year or so have in fact many more members than the combined membership of  ECA & AECI. It was NECI that took out the court injunction to put a stop to the increase which forced it back to the Labour court last february. Should ECA & AECI come to an agreement with TEEU, to which NECI is opposed to, they will simply go back to the High court and take out an injunction. At the moment TEEU are ignoring the elephant in the room, whilst they continue to ignore the existence of NECI.

Secman


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## Caveat (7 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*

Are you confident that is all accurate secman? Didn't know anything about this myself.

Somewhat disingenuous then to say they they are 'owed increases' - they didn't get increases that they wanted, more like.


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## thedaras (7 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*

Heard Devoy on Pat Kenny show this morning.

He ended the interview by saying ,your companys are closed and will remain closed untill we say so..

I despair...has he thought about the consequences of this.

Meanwhile those who are on protective notice who are already pinned to the collar financially are even more concerned about how to pay their morgages etc.

According to IBEC many companies will now have to close.

This kind of talk from Devoy will have devastating consequences for many.


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## secman (7 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*

The increase was originally sanctioned by ECA & AECI in early 2008, but NECI took out the court injunction to stop it and it ultimately went back to the Labour court in february 2009, at which time the Construction Industry was spiralling downwards and the ECA & AECI withdrew their agreement to the increase as the Labour market and ecomony had substantially changed for the worst. At the Feb 09 hearing of the Labour court, the increase was NOT ratified. This is a recorded fact. Also to say that there are many many electricians still working, this is not based on hearsay, I know this factually, and many of them are TEEU members who were NEVER balloted on this strike. I question the 93% support rate for the strike as in 93% of what ??

Secman


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## dockingtrade (7 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*

companies are looking for excuses to pull out of here.... The unions are going to finish off this country. Some guys at the top seem to be actaully revelling in this dispute citing huge success by having people out on strike and the very real possibilty of directly forcing more on the dole.
You'd say soemthing if the grip was with company A and company A  was closed but the companies that are shut can do nothing about this situation. And dont give me this b%llox that its the contractors that have places shut down because they are not meeting demands.


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## thedaras (7 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*

Well I think a lot of people would like to know the answer to that one!

Many companies pay more than the 21.49e as well  travel etc.

With Devoy saying on Pat Kenny today that ,your buisnness are closed and will stay closed untill we say so,one wonders what the chances are of a resolution now..

I feel so sorry for the workers in the companys who are being put on protective notice, it must be a scary time for time.


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## Shawady (7 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*

What do they mean by secondary striking at Diageo and Cadburys?
Are there no electricians working on these sites at the moment?


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## thedaras (7 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



Shawady said:


> What do they mean by secondary striking at Diageo and Cadburys?
> Are there no electricians working on these sites at the moment?


 

I just googled the term ,meaning of secondary striking,and from what I gather this would be the meaning...

The present strike is over a pay increase to electricians who work for a contractor.So if there are no contractors electricians on site,and the site was picketed then it would be a secondary picket,IMHO..open to correction on it.


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## Sunny (7 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



Shawady said:


> What do they mean by secondary striking at Diageo and Cadburys?
> Are there no electricians working on these sites at the moment?


 
They placed pickets on those sites because there were contracted electricians working there. It's called a secondary picket because the dispute is not directly with Diageo or Cadburys but rather with the contractors who employ the electricians. Diageo argued that this was illegal and that pickets should only be placed at the electricians place of employment. I think most people would have sympathy for their position. I wouldn't mind but this is a company that is looking for any excuse to move brewing operations out of this Country.


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## Latrade (7 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*

I think Devoy is a loose cannon and doesn't have the full support of Congress. Not just on this issue either. 

It's telling that this strike hasn't exactly had the ringing endorsement of Congress, just that it will be discussed. I think ICTU is more than aware of how this strike affects their position and is going to look to the public.

The mantra of protecting the most vulnerable members of society is diluted if people on over €20/hour are now classed as vulnerable.

I think I heard Begg on the radio yesterday with a very wishy washy statement about "we're there to protect the interests of our members". The implication (from the context it was given in) was that sometimes, even when they do not agree with their members, if that's the majority view it is their remit to represent that view. Again, hardly a ringing endorsement for the action.


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## Shawady (7 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



Latrade said:


> I think Devoy is a loose cannon and doesn't have the full support of Congress. Not just on this issue either.
> 
> It's telling that this strike hasn't exactly had the ringing endorsement of Congress, just that it will be discussed. I think ICTU is more than aware of how this strike affects their position and is going to look to the public.
> 
> ...


[broken link removed]

The president of ICTU has pledged his support this morning


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## Purple (7 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



Shawady said:


> [broken link removed]
> 
> The president of ICTU has pledged his support this morning



What more should we expect from those plonkers


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## Latrade (7 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



Shawady said:


> [broken link removed]
> 
> The president of ICTU has pledged his support this morning


 
Yup, but David Begg (General Secretary) called for it to go through the NIB, which is not an endorsement of the strike (and as close as you'll get to an actual condoning) and is a nice way of avoiding having to say whether or not they support the action.

The opening address of the President of ICTU at a conference is not the same thing.


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## Latrade (7 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



Shawady said:


> The president of ICTU has pledged his support this morning


 
BTW, the President is Patricia McKeown.


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## thedaras (7 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



Sunny said:


> They placed pickets on those sites because there were contracted electricians working there. It's called a secondary picket because the dispute is not directly with Diageo or Cadburys but rather with the contractors who employ the electricians. Diageo argued that this was illegal and that pickets should only be placed at the electricians place of employment. I think most people would have sympathy for their position. I wouldn't mind but this is a company that is looking for any excuse to move brewing operations out of this Country.


 
From what I heard on the rte report ,there were NO contracted electrians on those sites.


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## thedaras (7 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



Latrade said:


> BTW, the President is Patricia McKeown.


 
And when asked about how she felt about companies who were nothing to do with the strike being affected,McKeown said on newstalk that ,this was about solidarity..and the strong looking after the weak..
Oh BROTHER!!


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## Shawady (7 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



thedaras said:


> From what I heard on the rte report ,there were NO contracted electrians on those sites.


 
I thought they mentioned that on RTE news last night also - that there were no contracted electricians presently on site at Diageo.


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## Shawady (7 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



Latrade said:


> Yup, but David Begg (General Secretary) called for it to go through the NIB, which is not an endorsement of the strike (and as close as you'll get to an actual condoning) and is a nice way of avoiding having to say whether or not they support the action.
> 
> The opening address of the President of ICTU at a conference is not the same thing.


 
David Begg and Jack O'Connor are speaking this afternoon so it will be interesting to see if they refer to it but O'Connor has already supported it.


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## roker (7 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*

Unions are suppose to go with the majority, but pickets, especially secondary picket take away a persons democratic rights because it involves others that have nothing to do with the dispute, and have had no say or vote in the original dispute. This is a power the union should not have. There are a lot of companies that employ tradesmen and will not allow a union on site. Sometimes unions are require though, because a lot of employers begin to make their own rules e.g. not pay overtime rates or require employers to actually work overtime for nothing. (it has happened to me)
As regards the current dispute, I wrongly thought (I stand to be corrected) that the increase had already been agreed to, in this case it would have been the same as a breach of contract, and why should they not get it? Also a lot of contractor’s persons are sub contractors, where the main contract company takes a cut from their rate that is charged to the parent company. If this had been agreed the contractor should have had this rate budgeted into the price and not claim their inability to pay.


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## secman (7 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*

Roker, 

The increase was originally sanctioned by ECA & AECI in early 2008, but NECI took out the court injunction to stop it and it ultimately went back to the Labour court in february 2009, at which time the Construction Industry was spiralling downwards and the ECA & AECI withdrew their agreement to the increase as the Labour market and ecomony had substantially changed for the worst. At the Feb 09 hearing of the Labour court, the increase was NOT ratified. This is a recorded fact. Also to say that there are many many electricians still working, this is not based on hearsay, I know this factually, and many of them are TEEU members who were NEVER balloted on this strike. I question the 93% support rate for the strike as in 93% of what ??

Secman Today 11:09 AM


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## csirl (8 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*

Eastern European electricians are the biggest beneficiaries of this dispute. No doubt the Ryanair flights are full of them arriving in Ireland to take the jobs of those who wont pass pickets......and at much cheaper rates that the Irish electricians. 

The end result of this is that the Irish electricians will be unemployed and contractors will be reluctant to hire union members due to the risk of strike. Its a lot less risky and cheaper to hire a bunch of eastern Europeans who couldnt care less about the unions.


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## DavyJones (8 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*

Where you getting that from? that is unlikely to happen. Besides there are loads of electricians here who are not in unions and would have little interest in joining one.


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## csirl (8 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*

Already happening.


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## Sunny (8 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



csirl said:


> Already happening.


 

Where are foreign workers passing pickets and working for cheaper?


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## Pique318 (8 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



DavyJones said:


> Besides there are loads of electricians here who are not in unions and would have little interest in joining one.



Not so, if this is true...



thedaras said:


> ...if members of this union do pass a picket ,the union can withdraw their membership,which means they will not be able to work anywhere!!Without this "card" they cannot be employed.


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## Shawady (8 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



csirl said:


> Already happening.


 
Already happening since the strike started on Monday?


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## Latrade (8 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*

This compulsory union card thing confuses me. As the union(s) are exclusively irish in origin and representation, then how can foreign company employees be members? If they can't and so can't work here as a result of this rule, then that's a barrier to free trade. It wouldn't be legal. Or is it a general rule that they can be a member of any union?


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## Shawady (8 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



Latrade said:


> This compulsory union card thing confuses me. As the union(s) are exclusively irish in origin and representation, then how can foreign company employees be members? If they can't and so can't work here as a result of this rule, then that's a barrier to free trade. It wouldn't be legal. Or is it a general rule that they can be a member of any union?


 
I can't see how it would be legal to prevent someone from joining a union just because they are not Irish, but was there not a story on the news a few months back where a non-irish taxi driver was refused to join their union and the rep actually said on the news it was because he was a non-national?


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## Latrade (8 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



Shawady said:


> I can't see how it would be legal to prevent someone from joining a union just because they are not Irish, but was there not a story on the news a few months back where a non-irish taxi driver was refused to join their union and the rep actually said on the news it was because he was a non-national?


 
It wouldn't be legal to prevent someone. It's really where we have foreign contractors tendering for work here. Say the employees are in their own union or no union, does this rule mean that they would have to join an Irish union in order to work? If so, then surely that is a barrier to free trade.


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## csirl (8 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*

I would imagine that a union workers only agreement is illegal. Workers are free to join or not join a union - its their choice. You cannot refuse someone a job because they are or are not a union member.


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## Purple (8 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



csirl said:


> I would imagine that a union workers only agreement is illegal. Workers are free to join or not join a union - its their choice. You cannot refuse someone a job because they are or are not a union member.



Good in theory but intimidation by unions is a big problem in these situations. There’s no bullying like union bullying.


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## DublinTexas (8 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



thedaras said:


> The reason for this and I think it should the public domain,is that if members of this union do pass a picket ,the union can withdraw their membership,which means they will not be able to work anywhere!!Without this "card" they cannot be employed.


 
It was always clear to me that we are becoming more and more like the good old USSR but what is this now, if you are not a party member (or rather union member) you cannot get a job?
Could you maybe point me to where I can read up on this?


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## DavyJones (8 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



Pique318 said:


> Not so, if this is true...




I would  say the majority of sparks in this country are not in unions. These electricians are industrail workers, the bulk of sparks in Ireland work in(or used to) the domestic market and would not be in a union.


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## secman (8 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*

There are probably about 1,000 or so sparks on strike, I suspect many of these are unemployed anyways.
Thousands are still working. Sure they only targeted the obvious sites. The guys working are being thanked by other trades on the sites for not going out, as they can work away. On the issue of being in a union, a sparks I know made enquiries and under EU law, it is up to each individual as to whether they wish to join a union.

Secman


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## Hoagy (8 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



DublinTexas said:


> It was always clear to me that we are becoming more and more like the good old USSR but what is this now, if you are not a party member (or rather union member) you cannot get a job?
> Could you maybe point me to where I can read up on this?


 
You can read the entire REA which is at the heart of this dispute [broken link removed].

Union membership is compulsory under Rule 8 for members of the two employer bodies.
However since the agreement applies to all contracting electricians the union has argued that it is in fact compulsory for all employers.

Funny you mention the USSR; for many years the ETU was outside the TUC inthe UK because of its communist leanings. One of the ETU shop stewards in my first job in the '60s used to go to Russia every year for training.


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## DavyJones (8 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*

I work  with a lot of different electrical firms, just off the phone with one of them and asked were they on strike, he replied, "we may as well be with the amount of work we have on". It's a funny ould country.


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## DublinTexas (8 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



Hoagy said:


> You can read the entire REA which is at the heart of this dispute [broken link removed].
> 
> Union membership is compulsory under Rule 8 for members of the two employer bodies.
> However since the agreement applies to all contracting electricians the union has argued that it is in fact compulsory for all employers.
> ...


 
Thank you Hoagy for that link.

I had to read it twice to believe it but it clearly states that:


> All foremen, chargehands, and electricians employed by the ECA and the AECI hereafter called the employer bodies shall be or become members of the TEEU hereafter called the Union and must hold current union cards.


This incredible, 2 employer groups agreeing that they will only employ union members for sure that must be in breach of some EU rule. Employers discriminating on the basis that one does not want to be part of a political organisation (and a union is nothing else).

This is really the USSR! Comrades if you want to work you need to part of our union, if you are not you can’t work at any company that has an agreement with us. Long live the workers union!


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## Purple (8 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*

It's OK for unions to operate restrictive practices but not anyone else. (and these are the same clowns that go on about equality!)


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## Padraigb (8 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



Purple said:


> It's OK for unions to operate restrictive practices but not anyone else.



It's the employers who impose the condition on staff they recruit (albeit at the request of the union).

Do you think that the so-called "higher professions" do not operate restrictive practices?


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## Purple (8 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



Padraigb said:


> It's the employers who impose the condition on staff they recruit (albeit at the request of the union).


 No employer would ever voluntarily enter into such an arrangement. This only happened because of pressure/bullying/intimidation by the unions. 



Padraigb said:


> Do you think that the so-called "higher professions" do not operate restrictive practices?


 Absolutely. Two wrongs don’t make a right. By the way the legal and medical representative bodies are trade unions (and so, ironically, is IBEC).


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## roker (8 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



> Do you think that the so-called "higher professions" do not operate restrictive practices?


 
This is of course practiced by other professions, try being a solicitor or an accountant, architect, do they not have to be in a society that dictates the rate they charge?. I thought that to join a trade union you had to prove that you were time served?


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## DublinTexas (8 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



Padraigb said:


> It's the employers who impose the condition on staff they recruit (albeit at the request of the union).


 
I think that the Employers and unions have entered into this agreement because at the time the situation was one, where they both could only agree on this and both were happy with the T&C conditions without thinking about the long term implications if the tiger ever became a mouse.

That did not only happen in this case, this was the case across so many parts of business and politics.

I find it outrages that employers actually entered into such an agreement, so in fact next time I need an electrician I will boycott anybody who is part of the ECA or AOEC.



Padraigb said:


> Do you think that the so-called "higher professions" do not operate restrictive practices?


 
Just because other people do restrictive practices too does not make it right in either case.

Restrictions to get work because of your political affiliation are wrong. And please don’t even try to argue that a union is not a political organisation. The arranged demonstrations of “congress” clearly show that they have moved away from being an arm of the Labour Party and evolved into a political machine.

There were times where you could not get a job in Germany when you were not a member of the NSDAP or in the USSR if you were not member of the Communist Party.


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## Purple (9 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



roker said:


> I thought that to join a trade union you had to prove that you were time served?


Nope, I’m sure that the bearded brethren would like to have it that way so that they can leech off even more people trying to make a living but thankfully we still have some freedoms in this country. 
I’m a time served tradesman and I have never been in a union. I work with lots of other tradesmen and they, with two exceptions, have never been in a union. We do not recognise any union, it has never come up. It is because we don’t have these malign bloodsuckers in our midst that in many decades of business we have never has any strike or industrial dispute of any kind.


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## Deiseblue (9 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*

Prior to retiring from my job in the Financial Services sector I was a member of a Trade Union.
I worked a 35 hour week , any time worked after that was paid as overtime.
I enjoyed 30 days leave annually.
Pay increases under the various National wage agreements were always honoured including the 3.5% payable late last year under the current agreement towards 2016.
I always had the comfort of knowing that the union would protect our interests in the event of terms and conditions being challenged.
I was able to retire at the age of 52 with a pension equal to approx 55% of my final salary together with a substantial lump sum.
I appreciate how lucky I am but equally realise that the benefits I enjoy now and indeed when I worked were due to being part of a strongly unionised workforce.


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## secman (9 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*

Deiseblue, You were lucky not to have someone like Devoy in your Union, a person that would "bring the country down to get money for his workers" Treason is not to be admired ! That guy is a dinosaur and should be extinct. Don't be fooled by his assertion that 93% of electricians balloted for strike, many many electricainas were not balloted, these were counted as yes , but thousands of these guys are continuing to work. Also many ECA firms & AECI firms employ non union sparks, it is illegal to refuse someone employment if they are not in a union. 

Secman


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## secman (9 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



Published April 28th, 2008 in Other Issues 
Martin Nolan handed me the letter. I glanced at the first line.”Dear Brother Nolan,” it began.
“An heirloom?” I enquired. “Written to your grandfather?”
“Not at all,” he replied. “It was written this month. To me.”
Martin had received a bombshell from Arthur Hall, the secretary of his union. Or at least the outfit that he thought was his union. Brother Hall’s letter told him that he was being kicked out of the TEEU.
Brother Martin Nolan had broken no union rules. His sin: joining it.

Last year, Martin lost faith in the dinosaurs at Siptu, the mostly bearded guys who rule the roost at Ireland’s compost of trades unions. Unhappy with the Siptu standard of service, he decided to switch to the TEEU.
Martin should have known better. Members are not allowed to lose faith in Siptu. It would be easier to leave the IRA.
Martin and seven of his colleagues working at Dublin Port were accepted for membership of the TEEU, paid their dues and spent several months happy in the company of more congenial comrades. Then the long arm of Siptu flexed its biceps.
An “investigation committee” — no less — was set up to probe these troublesome workers who asserted their right to join another union. Who carried out the investigation? No lesser figures than the general secretaries of both unions. And the two heavyweight investigators came to a happy conclusion: the eight dissidents were to leave TEEU and head back to Siptu. To hell with their personal preferences. Siptu wanted them back. The TEEU buckled under pressure.
Eamon Devoy, the incoming TEEU boss, sent off the surrender letter to Brother Hall revealing that “an investigation committee was established arising from which a decision has been made that the members … should resume their membership of Siptu.” Brother Hall then advised Brother Martin Nolan and the other seven brethren.
It is bad enough union bosses telling the lads that their membership of the TEEU was cancelled under pressure from Siptu; but it is far worse when the same dinosaurs decide that the workers should return to Siptu. Eamon Devoy should not make such demands. Pluckily, the lads did not comply.
An unusual device was used to enforce the wishes of the investigators. It emerges that Siptu and the TEEU have a little agreement. It is called the “TUF” (Trades Union Friendship) pact. A sort of non-compete deal. If the banks were at the same wheeze we would call it a cartel. It stops unions offering better conditions to each others’ members.
Siptu and the TEEU have opted not to compete over members down in Dublin Port. Indeed, if there is any hint of frisky members eyeing the benefits of the other union, the losing union will move like greased lightening to protect its patch and invoke the deal.
The agreement works wonders for the union bosses. It creates a prison for the trades union members. Somewhat sinisterly, the dinosaurs call the deal the “Spheres of Influence Agreement”. Siptu-speak for a territorial carve up.
‘Brother’ Nolan and his pals bolted. They escaped deep into enemy territory where they were originally welcomed as defectors. Then, under pressure, the TEEU bosses booted the boys back into the arms of their original Siptu captors.
Siptu maintains that they were evicted from the TEEU because they were not craftsmen, they were the wrong grades; that the TEEU is a craft union and that these guys do not belong there.
Which would be vaguely credible, except that the TEEU has just accepted identikit defectors from another union, the Seamen’s Union of Ireland (SUI). Same grades, same jobs. A trifle awkward, that. But there is bad blood between Siptu and the SUI. No self-respecting member of the SUI would touch Siptu with a barge pole.
Last Thursday it was time to tackle the brethren about Brother Nolan’s difficulty
So I rang the TEEU. Could I speak to Brother Arthur?
Brother Arthur was in South America. Not a bad place to be this weather. Was he on a fraternal visit to Hugo Chavez in Venezuela? Or did he call into Cuba en route? As Brother Arthur was not at work, maybe the general secretary (designate), Brother Eamon Devoy, could help, I asked?
Brother Eamon was at “meetings”. He would ring back in the afternoon. In the afternoon he was at meetings. “Lots of meetings,” I commented to the voice at the other end of the telephone. “That is what trades unions are all about,” she riposted testily. Touche. At Siptu’s Liberty Hall HQ, no one admitted to being in South America. They, too, were all at “meetings”. Probably cooking up more Trade Union Friendship deals and Spheres of Influence agreements.
Joe O’Flynn, the well-rewarded general secretary, who spent so much time investigating the breach of the Siptu/TEEU deal, was at ‘meetings’. So was everybody else whom I sought. No dice from the top brass. One official , who was unlucky enough to pick up the phone, offered the excuse that Martin and the lads were of the wrong grades.
Perhaps I should have asked for the biggest dinosaur of them all, the generously bearded Jack O’Connor, Siptu’s general president. Jack is not inclined to take my calls; but I already knew his position. Last month he wrote to Labour TD Joe Costello explaining Siptu’s extraordinary stance on union members with itchy feet and specifically Brother Martin Nolan’s case. According to Jack, the position is “very simple”.
“It is governed by the rules of the Irish Congress of Trades Unions which are designed to facilitate strong trade union organisation and limit the potential for a multiplicity of unions organising the same group of workers.
“As you will appreciate, this latter situation would greatly weaken trade union organisation.”
The union is what matters, not the individual’s right to choice. According to Jack the workers are there to be “organised”. Jack goes on. “In accordance with these rules and with the bilateral agreement between Siptu and the TEEU that union has accepted that it should not take Martin into membership.” It is signed “yours fraternally”, but thankfully Jack stops short of addressing the Labour TD as “Brother Joe”.
Just imagine all the whingeing we would have heard from Jack, if employers in any single industry cooked up a deal, agreeing never to employ each others’ staff. Jack would rightly raise merry hell.
But on Thursday, Jack would have been far too busy to take anybody’s calls. He was up in Government Buildings, fraternising with his real brothers, including Brother Turlough O’Sullivan the pushover from Ibec, cooking up another pay pact to sell to the sad suckers who are forced to stay in Siptu.
And, when the posturing is over, when the deal is sealed, when Turlough and his wimps have performed their ritual surrender, Jack can resume the real fight — 


jUST ANOTHER INSIGHT OF TEEU & DINO

Secman


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## Shawady (9 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*

Secman, your post reminded me of my first summer job in 1989 with Irish Ferries (B&I Line as it was known then).
There was big hassle between the two unions at the time as many of the staff were not happy with SUI and left to join SIPTU. If memory serves me correct, SUI were seen to be very militant at the time, striking for minor issues.

Regards the electricians strike I see that the employers are softening on the 10% pay cut. I wonder if this the reasoning behind the the strike - Look for a pay rise but happy to accept the rate of pay they have at the moment?


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## Deiseblue (9 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



secman said:


> Deiseblue, You were lucky not to have someone like Devoy in your Union, a person that would "bring the country down to get money for his workers" Treason is not to be admired ! That guy is a dinosaur and should be extinct. Don't be fooled by his assertion that 93% of electricians balloted for strike, many many electricainas were not balloted, these were counted as yes , but thousands of these guys are continuing to work. Also many ECA firms & AECI firms employ non union sparks, it is illegal to refuse someone employment if they are not in a union.
> 
> Secman


I was merely pointing out the huge advantages of being in a strongly unionised work force from my point of view and indeed from the point of view of my colleagues in terms of enhancing and protecting terms and conditions.
It now appears that the question of a 10% decrease in pay has been dropped by the contactors and hopefully a compromise can now be reached at the LRC although it does appear that some sort of pay increase will have to be negotiated before the TEEU will settle.
I have no reason to distrust the TEEU's assertion that they have a huge mandate for strike action.
I would far prefer to be represented by Mr. Eamon Devoy then by Tom Parlon whose industrial relation skills need a bit of polishing !
Nor should we forget who Mr. Parlon represents - the sector who contributed so much to our economic downturn by their avarice.


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## thedaras (9 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*

These union guys are very shortsighted,they may win the fight, but they Will lose the war.

There is no doubt in my mind that,that if they do get a payrise the consequences will be far reaching.And thats losing the war.


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## Purple (9 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



Deiseblue said:


> I was merely pointing out the huge advantages of being in a strongly unionised work force from my point of view and indeed from the point of view of my colleagues in terms of enhancing and protecting terms and conditions.
> It now appears that the question of a 10% decrease in pay has been dropped by the contactors and hopefully a compromise can now be reached at the LRC although it does appear that some sort of pay increase will have to be negotiated before the TEEU will settle.
> I have no reason to distrust the TEEU's assertion that they have a huge mandate for strike action.
> I would far prefer to be represented by Mr. Eamon Devoy then by Tom Parlon whose industrial relation skills need a bit of polishing !
> Nor should we forget who Mr. Parlon represents - the sector who contributed so much to our economic downturn by their avarice.



There are huge advantages for those in the union just as there are huge advantages for those in the mafia. The problem is that someone else has to pay for those advantages. In the case of the Public and Civil Service it’[s the general tax payer. In the case of those in the banks who enjoyed DB pensions it’s the customers who pay higher charges and the newer employees who get paid less so that the banks can fund the gargantuan DB pension funds. In the case of the electricians it’s the other building workers who are getting paid up to 50% less than a few years ago and now can’t even get into work and the many hundreds of building workers who will lose their jobs over the next few weeks because of the strike.

But that’s what vested interest groups in general, and unions in particular, are all about; screwing someone else so that their members get a larger slice of the cake.


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## Latrade (9 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



Purple said:


> But that’s what vested interest groups in general, and unions in particular, are all about; screwing someone else so that their members get a larger slice of the cake.


 
LOL: I suppose that's one way of looking at it. 

It's the whole "member's interests" that's the killer in all representative bodies. Even when the interests of the members are far wide of the greater good and ultimately, as in this case, self-serving, selfish and likely to have major consequences for the rest of their "brothers".


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## Caveat (9 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*

Latrade & Purple - completely agree.


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## dockingtrade (9 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*

im just worried when this is over, how the manufacturing companies and their headquarters are going to look at this. How they can be impacted by something they have no controll over. Especially how they can use this against Ireland as place to do biz and give them excuses to leave or not invest more.


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## Deiseblue (9 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



Purple said:


> There are huge advantages for those in the union just as there are huge advantages for those in the mafia. The problem is that someone else has to pay for those advantages. In the case of the Public and Civil Service it’[s the general tax payer. In the case of those in the banks who enjoyed DB pensions it’s the customers who pay higher charges and the newer employees who get paid less so that the banks can fund the gargantuan DB pension funds. In the case of the electricians it’s the other building workers who are getting paid up to 50% less than a few years ago and now can’t even get into work and the many hundreds of building workers who will lose their jobs over the next few weeks because of the strike.
> 
> But that’s what vested interest groups in general, and unions in particular, are all about; screwing someone else so that their members get a larger slice of the cake.


Unions are simply there to enhance where possible the terms and conditions of it's members and in more difficult times to endeavour to protect such terms and conditions as mandated by their members.
You would presumably agree that the Construction sector as a vested interest group have royally screwed the country to a degree unequalled by any other vested interest group and with the Banks aided by a light legislative hand have deepened our recession ?
Still it's good to see you realise that there are huge advantages in being a union member although your comparison with the mafia would be better applied to our Banks and Developers !


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## thedaras (9 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



dockingtrade said:


> im just worried when this is over, how the manufacturing companies and their headquarters are going to look at this. How they can be impacted by something they have no controll over. Especially how they can use this against Ireland as place to do biz and give them excuses to leave or not invest more.


 
Exactly!! Watch that space.

Thats what I mean by winning the argument and losing the war..

Irish distillers have now secured an injunction against the unions picketing.

I wonder how much all this legal action has cost the companies involved and whos going to pay for it?

Hopefully the "Brothers" will have to pay ..


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## Purple (9 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



Deiseblue said:


> Unions are simply there to enhance where possible the terms and conditions of it's members and in more difficult times to endeavour to protect such terms and conditions as mandated by their members.
> You would presumably agree that the Construction sector as a vested interest group have royally screwed the country to a degree unequalled by any other vested interest group and with the Banks aided by a light legislative hand have deepened our recession ?
> Still it's good to see you realise that there are huge advantages in being a union member although your comparison with the mafia would be better applied to our Banks and Developers !



The Construction sector didn’t screw up the country, the government and Social(ist) Partners did. They created an economically suicidal environment which the construction sector reacted to. Every individual who sold their own home to the highest bidder during this period was just as much part of the problem. The core problem was that the government didn’t govern and so the vested interest groups, be they CONGRESS (ictu), IBEC, the CIF, the Banks, CORI, SIPTU etc were given an almost free hand to carve up the country. 

The Mafia analogy is sound; if I, upon attempting to move my accounts from Bank of Ireland to AIB, was told that I could not do so as there was an agreement between the banks not to take each other’s customers then it might apply to them. But it wouldn’t happen so the analogy doesn’t fit.

The Mafia is also there to protect the interests of its members (“made man” rather than “Comrades”) to the detriment of the rest of the general population.


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## MOB (9 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



Deiseblue said:


> Prior to retiring from my job in the Financial Services sector I was a member of a Trade Union.
> I worked a 35 hour week , any time worked after that was paid as overtime.
> I enjoyed 30 days leave annually.
> Pay increases under the various National wage agreements were always honoured including the 3.5% payable late last year under the current agreement towards 2016.
> ...



Deiseblue, I don't begrudge you your good fortune.  Truly I don't.  But - and it is a big but -the terms and conditions which you enjoyed simply cannot be enjoyed by most people.  We have economy where the public sector, banks, utilities and a few other industries (brewers, for example) are held to ransom by unions to deliver pay and conditions which simply cannot be matched elsewhere.   

There is a cost to be paid for this.  We all end up with dear electricity, expensive banking, costly public services.   I think I would be quite happy to see the terms and conditions to which you refer comprehensively dismantled;    I would like to see unions grow and prosper when it comes to protecting the rights of supermarket workers, cleaners, petrol station attendants, general operatives in factories etc.   But the 'protected' sectors are where unions do most of their business, and it leaves a bad taste


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## Deiseblue (9 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



Purple said:


> The Construction sector didn’t screw up the country, the government and Social(ist) Partners did. They created an economically suicidal environment which the construction sector reacted to. Every individual who sold their own home to the highest bidder during this period was just as much part of the problem. The core problem was that the government didn’t govern and so the vested interest groups, be they CONGRESS (ictu), IBEC, the CIF, the Banks, CORI, SIPTU etc were given an almost free hand to carve up the country.
> 
> The Mafia analogy is sound; if I, upon attempting to move my accounts from Bank of Ireland to AIB, was told that I could not do so as there was an agreement between the banks not to take each other’s customers then it might apply to them. But it wouldn’t happen so the analogy doesn’t fit.
> 
> The Mafia is also there to protect the interests of its members (“made man” rather than “Comrades”) to the detriment of the rest of the general population.


A minority view I would have thought !
It appears to me that the general concensus is that  the sectors that deepened our economy were the Banking and Construction sectors with the construction sector displaying a level of avarice equalled only by the enthusiasm displayed by the lightly regulated Banks  to lend them funds to sustain their greed.
Anglo Irish does'nt smack of Mafia type behaviour to you ?
Brian Goggins salary does'nt seem like a tribute to the Don ?
As I say I merely pointed out the benefits of being in a strongly unionised workforce and how fortunate I was to be a union member !


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## Purple (9 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



Deiseblue said:


> A minority view I would have thought !
> It appears to me that the general concensus is that  the sectors that deepened our economy were the Banking and Construction sectors with the construction sector displaying a level of avarice equalled only by the enthusiasm displayed by the lightly regulated Banks  to lend them funds to sustain their greed.


 I sold a house in the last 5 years. I sold it to the highest bidder. The reason that the highest bidder could bid so much is because the government failed to manage the economy properly and allowed cheap money to wash over us like a tsunami. Should I have sold to a lower bidder because I knew that we were in a credit fuelled property bubble? If the answer is no then why should anyone else?
Did the private citizens who traded down, selling to the highest bidder also “displaying a level of avarice equalled only by the enthusiasm displayed by the lightly regulated Banks”? 
Yes, the banks were stupid and short sighted, but the book stops with the government and they were AWOL from the economy for most of the last 10 years.



Deiseblue said:


> Anglo Irish does'nt smack of Mafia type behaviour to you ?


 I would be banned if I expressed my opinions on Anglo-Irish and it’s board. 


Deiseblue said:


> As I say I merely pointed out the benefits of being in a strongly unionised workforce and how fortunate I was to be a union member !


 And I merely pointed out the impact that has on your fellow citizens who are not in the club.


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## secman (9 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*

The TEEU over the years of the "Boom" sought and got on average 5 & 6 % increases and this did not affect our baloon economy ? The admin staff of the Electrical Contractors also got their annual increase, but in 2009 they have ( where jobs have been retained) taken between 10% & 20% decreases, they live in the real world, they see the current work levels, they see the current tender rates, they see how difficult it is to get money in. They don't deem the company merely as a " job agency" as Mr Devoy described it last Friday, a 10yr old child would see this is not the case. And on the matter of the assertion of 93% in favour of the strike, I can and do seriously question this number, based on the fact that thousands of electricians are currently working on the smaller sites and are being thanked by the other tradesmen on those sites. It is also foolhardy to omit NECI from the talks as they will, as they have done previously take out a High Court injunction on any matters they are not in agreement to. 

Mr Devoy was the union rep dealing with Team Aer lingus issues some years back, that whole institution now SR Technics  is lost to anther more competitive country ! 


Secman


----------



## csirl (9 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*

Apparantly the strike is beginning to break down - a lot of workers passed through the pickets this morning.


----------



## DublinTexas (9 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



Purple said:


> The Construction sector didn’t screw up the country, the government and Social(ist) Partners did. They created an economically suicidal environment which the construction sector reacted to. Every individual who sold their own home to the highest bidder during this period was just as much part of the problem. The core problem was that the government didn’t govern and so the vested interest groups, be they CONGRESS (ictu), IBEC, the CIF, the Banks, CORI, SIPTU etc were given an almost free hand to carve up the country.
> 
> The Mafia analogy is sound; if I, upon attempting to move my accounts from Bank of Ireland to AIB, was told that I could not do so as there was an agreement between the banks not to take each other’s customers then it might apply to them. But it wouldn’t happen so the analogy doesn’t fit.
> 
> The Mafia is also there to protect the interests of its members (“made man” rather than “Comrades”) to the detriment of the rest of the general population.


 
Be careful with statements like that, an angry mob might assemble and burn you outside town.

But I fully agree with you, it’s unreasonable to blame one party for the problems we are facing now or even to try to blame the US Subprime market alone.

I fully agree with your identification of the main culprits.


----------



## Shawady (9 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



csirl said:


> Apparantly the strike is beginning to break down - a lot of workers passed through the pickets this morning.


 
When you say workers, do you mean workers other than electricians?


----------



## BoscoTalking (9 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*

i think if anything its gaining momentum unfortunately. Workers / other contractors are doing nights instead of passing pickets where i see more people joining the strikers. 
I appreciate both sides of the coin to be fair but think the union and CIF should be better or at least more professional in negotiating. Both Tom Parlon and the TEEU union guy were disgraceful on the airwaves this week.


----------



## Caveat (9 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*

Small group (4 or 5) of electricians with pickets outside a site close to me.

TBH, they look uncomfortable and a bit sheepish to me.


----------



## room305 (10 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



Purple said:


> Absolutely. Two wrongs don’t make a right. By the way the legal and medical representative bodies are trade unions (and so, ironically, is IBEC).



+1

Only very few professions or enterprises in Ireland do not operate as de facto, state-sanctioned, union-backed cartels. ICT is one of those areas, where open exposure to global competition keeps wages down relative to sectors like law. This imbalance discourages people from joining or encourages people to leave. More than half the people I went to college with no longer work in the area.

Funnily enough, these are the very sectors now being touted as saviours for the Irish economy.


----------



## room305 (10 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



Deiseblue said:


> I appreciate how lucky I am but equally realise that the benefits I enjoy now and indeed when I worked were due to being part of a strongly unionised workforce.



This is as much a factor of working in Financial Services as the involvement of any trade union. Or more accurately, you work in a profession insulated by government decree and reap the benefits of the virtual eradication of competition. Your customers pay the costs. You would have enjoyed the same benefits regardless of whether you were in the union or not, so essentially you signed up for a voluntary tax to afford the likes of David Begg and Peter McCloone the lifestyle to which they have become accustomed.

I am a non-unionised public sector worker so know what I'm talking about.



Purple said:


> The Construction sector didn’t screw up the country, the government and Social(ist) Partners did. They created an economically suicidal environment which the construction sector reacted to. Every individual who sold their own home to the highest bidder during this period was just as much part of the problem. The core problem was that the government didn’t govern and so the vested interest groups, be they CONGRESS (ictu), IBEC, the CIF, the Banks, CORI, SIPTU etc were given an almost free hand to carve up the country.



Somebody missed the "everything-was-grand-until-Lehman-Brothers-collapsed" memo.


----------



## Deiseblue (11 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



room305 said:


> This is as much a factor of working in Financial Services as the involvement of any trade union. Or more accurately, you work in a profession insulated by government decree and reap the benefits of the virtual eradication of competition. Your customers pay the costs. You would have enjoyed the same benefits regardless of whether you were in the union or not, so essentially you signed up for a voluntary tax to afford the likes of David Begg and Peter McCloone the lifestyle to which they have become accustomed.
> 
> I am a non-unionised public sector worker so know what I'm talking about.
> 
> ...


The point you are missing is that the terms and conditions that the vast majority of people enjoy in the Banking sector would not be at the level they are without the presence of a strong union who ably negotiated such terms and conditions , would the Banks have applied such terms and conditions voluntarily - would they B***ix !


----------



## Purple (11 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



Deiseblue said:


> The point you are missing is that the terms and conditions that the vast majority of people enjoy in the Banking sector would not be at the level they are without the presence of a strong union who ably negotiated such terms and conditions , would the Banks have applied such terms and conditions voluntarily - would they B***ix !


You are missing the point that if banking was not a protected sector such terms and conditions would not sustainable and that ultimately it is the customers, from corporations to pensioners, who have paid and will continue to pay for your “package”.


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## Deiseblue (11 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



Purple said:


> You are missing the point that if banking was not a protected sector such terms and conditions would not sustainable and that ultimately it is the customers, from corporations to pensioners, who have paid and will continue to pay for your “package”.


I would have thought there was plenty of competition out there in the Banking Sector or am I missing something ?
The profit's enjoyed by the Bank's from staff , customers be they corporations or personal - it's called capitalism.
No doubt your business generates income in the same fashion ?
And it's not my "package " - it was agreed by my employers , the union and Kieran Mulvey - I was however delighted to avail of it !


----------



## Purple (11 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



Deiseblue said:


> I would have thought there was plenty of competition out there in the Banking Sector or am I missing something ?


 Yes, open competition.



Deiseblue said:


> No doubt your business generates income in the same fashion ?


 Nope, we are open to international competition. If we fail we just go out of business. Our competition is not limited through any barriers to entry.


Deiseblue said:


> And it's not my "package " - it was agreed by my employers , the union and Kieran Mulvey - I was however delighted to avail of it !


I'm not having a go at you, please don't think I am. I am just pointing out that pay rates and T&C's like that are unsustainable in the wider, more open sections, of the economy so in effect the rest of the economy is subsidising you and everyone else in the protected and state sectors.


----------



## room305 (11 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



Deiseblue said:


> The point you are missing is that the terms and conditions that the vast majority of people enjoy in the Banking sector would not be at the level they are without the presence of a strong union who ably negotiated such terms and conditions , would the Banks have applied such terms and conditions voluntarily - would they B***ix !



I have friends working in the non-unionised JP Morgan and Merrill Lynch. I guess you can assume they earn a pittance, right?



Deiseblue said:


> I would have thought there was plenty of *competition out there in the Banking Sector* or am I missing something ?



Thanks for that, it's always good to start the weekend with a hearty laugh.



Deiseblue said:


> The profit's enjoyed by the Bank's from staff , customers be they corporations or personal - it's called capitalism.



Well actually, in capitalism corporations operate for the benefit of shareholders not necessarily the customers or employees (although usually their interests will coincide). If employees want a piece of the profit action then they are free to risk their capital by investing like the shareholders have.

But then insolvent businesses fail in capitalism, so whatever we have now, it's not capitalism.

Presumably the corollary of your theory that bank staff are directly responsible for bank profitability, is that when banks are incurring losses, the staff are also responsible? So I guess the unions are out there arguing for reductions in wages for staff because the banks are losing so much money?



Deiseblue said:


> No doubt your business generates income in the same fashion ?



I understand Purple's business is in exporting, so no, his business doesn't generate income in any manner comparable to a private banking cartel.



Deiseblue said:


> And it's not my "package " - it was agreed by my employers , the union and Kieran Mulvey - I was however delighted to avail of it !



Right, and it was paid for by your hapless customers. None of whom could shop elsewhere because all licensed operators had to "agree" to effectively the same package. I believe you call it capitalism.


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## Deiseblue (13 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



room305 said:


> I have friends working in the non-unionised JP Morgan and Merrill Lynch. I guess you can assume they earn a pittance, right?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am sue your friends in Morgan and Merrills are earning good money and more power to them !
The questions I would ask are :
Do they work a 35 hour week ?
Do they get paid overtime ?
Do they get 30 days leave a year ?
Are they members of a DB pension scheme ?
More to terms and conditions than salaries.
Have you checked this site or any of the comparison sites or scanned the financial advise columns of the national papers , if so you will have seen that there is huge competition out ther in the banking sector across the range of financial products offered - the day of the cartel is long gone !
Of course Bank staff will suffer from pay freezes and reduction/cancellation of bonuses and of course the union will endeavour to protect terms and conditions as is their duty .
Back on thread - could I congratulate Kieran Mulvey on negotiating what is an eminently reasonable compromise which hopefully will be acceptable to both parties and thus end the electricians dispute.


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## secman (13 Jul 2009)

*Re: TEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*

Deise,

You are very naieve to think the dispute is over, ECA buckled to the big builder mates in CIF to stike a deal. The recommendation issed by the Labour Court is a NON binding one as he knows the AECI are opposed to it. They are voting this week in the knowledge that NECI are ready to go back to the High Court as they did a year ago to take out an injunction to stop the REA applying to their members. In the last year since they took out the original injunction there has been a huge downturn in the Construction market, thousands of electrician jobs have been lost. Customers have requested rate reductions from Electrical Contractors, tender prices have plummeted....... > How can small contractors be subjected to rate increases as agreed by the Mercuries, Kirby, Designer Groups of this world. Its absurd to be agreeing a rate increase in the current market.

Secman


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## Hoagy (13 Jul 2009)

*Re: TEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



secman said:


> Deise,
> 
> You are very naieve to think the dispute is over, ECA buckled to the big builder mates in CIF to stike a deal. The recommendation issed by the Labour Court is a NON binding one as he knows the AECI are opposed to it. They are voting this week in the knowledge that *NECI are ready to go back to the High Court as they did a year ago to take out an injunction to stop the REA applying to their members*. In the last year since they took out the original injunction there has been a huge downturn in the Construction market, thousands of electrician jobs have been lost. Customers have requested rate reductions from Electrical Contractors, tender prices have plummeted....... > How can small contractors be subjected to rate increases as agreed by the Mercuries, Kirby, Designer Groups of this world. Its absurd to be agreeing a rate increase in the current market.
> 
> Secman


 
I dont know how likely that is. The High Court injunction was lifted and the Labour Court refused to cancel the REA, so what do they do next?
Also Denis Judge went on Morning Ireland last Friday and said NECI could agree to the 5% in certain circumstances.

I think the Non - Aligned group has more credibility at this stage. It remains to be seen what action they can take, though.


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## secman (13 Jul 2009)

*Re: TEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*

Denis also said " A Black day for Ireland". They went to high court a year ago , now things are much worse, so why would they not go back now ? The REA is still untouched ! Why do you think Labour court issued a Non binding recommendation ? The 4th non alligned, non named group are definitely taking REA to high court. Far from over.

Secman


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## Deiseblue (13 Jul 2009)

*Re: TEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



secman said:


> Deise,
> 
> You are very naieve to think the dispute is over, ECA buckled to the big builder mates in CIF to stike a deal. The recommendation issed by the Labour Court is a NON binding one as he knows the AECI are opposed to it. They are voting this week in the knowledge that NECI are ready to go back to the High Court as they did a year ago to take out an injunction to stop the REA applying to their members. In the last year since they took out the original injunction there has been a huge downturn in the Construction market, thousands of electrician jobs have been lost. Customers have requested rate reductions from Electrical Contractors, tender prices have plummeted....... > How can small contractors be subjected to rate increases as agreed by the Mercuries, Kirby, Designer Groups of this world. Its absurd to be agreeing a rate increase in the current market.
> 
> Secman


I never said that the dispute was over , if you read my post I said I hoped that the compromise would be accepted by both sides.
I fully accept that there are still obstacles ahead .


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## johnd (13 Jul 2009)

*Re: TEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*

Why have the TEETU lifted the pickets? Its going to be very hard to reinstate them should the AECI vote against the increase. On a different topic how did Kiernan Mulvey get his present job? I thought he was a trade union leader in a former life- hardly what you could call independent is he? Unlike Deiseblue old trade union leaders never seem to retire -  they just keep getting Goverment jobs and collecting even bigger salaries than before.


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## Hoagy (13 Jul 2009)

*Re: TEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



johnd said:


> Why have the TEETU lifted the pickets?


 
Builders' holidays starting at the end of this week.


From the TEEU statement
_Should either or both of the employers bodies refuse to accept the Labour Court Recommendation then the dispute will be reactivated, *subsequent to the builders holidays*, and the ICTU All-Out Picket will be vigorously pursued_.


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## thedaras (13 Jul 2009)

*Re: TEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*

Devoy may have won the fight but he has lost the war,watch that space!

At the end of the the day, Devoy has not got what he wanted, ie the 11% ,and in fact half of that wont be paid for a few months and the other half next year.

I have heard it said several times today that the dispute is off as builders are going on holidays on Friday ,watch that space too.

Now if I were a union member and I lost a weeks pay i.e. in electricians case about €800 a week and I ended up with not the 11% the leader has been shouting for but in fact half of that, and half of that again not being paid till 2010, well I figure it would take me a year to gain back the money I have lost on the strike,so I wouldn't be too happy with Devoy and co. Again watch that space.

So much for the unions, laughable.

Wonder if the union will look for an increase in their subs now that apparently Devoy is getting a 27% pay increase, definitely watch that space.


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## johnd (13 Jul 2009)

*Re: TEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*

I'm kicking myself I didn't become a trade union activist when I had the chance years ago. Those of us involved in the union were given the change to go the College of Industrial Relations Ranelagh for a one year course.  If that was successful then a 3 year course was an option which could eventually lead to a job in the union.  I could have been earning €150,000 a year now. I don't think I would have suited a beard though - not with the glasses I have to wear  - or the hearing aid.


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## thedaras (13 Jul 2009)

*Re: TEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



johnd said:


> I'm kicking myself I didn't become a trade union activist when I had the chance years ago. Those of us involved in the union were given the change to go the College of Industrial Relations Ranelagh for a one year course. If that was successful then a 3 year course was an option which could eventually lead to a job in the union. I could have been earning €150,000 a year now. I don't think I would have suited a beard though - not with the glasses I have to wear - or the hearing aid.


 
 Just curious, what type of course was this?

1) how to screw your employer and get away with it

2) how to frustrate any type of change and get away with it

3) how to strike in a recession and get away with it

4) how to grow a beard?

5)how to go on strike in a recession for a week,demanding an 11% pay increase ,and then be happy with half of that.

6) HOW TO MAKE UP FOR THE 800E PLUS YOU LOST DURING THE WEEKS STRIKE IN JUST OVER A YEAR...

feel free to add your own,


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## Complainer (13 Jul 2009)

*Re: TEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



johnd said:


> I'm kicking myself I didn't become a trade union activist when I had the chance years ago. Those of us involved in the union were given the change to go the College of Industrial Relations Ranelagh for a one year course.  If that was successful then a 3 year course was an option which could eventually lead to a job in the union.  I could have been earning €150,000 a year now. I don't think I would have suited a beard though - not with the glasses I have to wear  - or the hearing aid.


Yeah, cos it is just that easy. No-one in the union ever had to work hard, or take a posting in the back of beyond to get a promotion, or work through difficulties created by their own employer (TU's are notoriously bad employers, btw), or compete with their own colleagues. They just walk in and say 'give me €150k please' - right?


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## thedaras (13 Jul 2009)

*Re: TEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



Complainer said:


> Yeah, cos it is just that easy. No-one in the union ever had to work hard, or take a posting in the back of beyond to get a promotion, or work through difficulties created by their own employer (TU's are notoriously bad employers, btw), or compete with their own colleagues.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Complainer (13 Jul 2009)

*Re: TEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



thedaras said:


> Devoy may have won the fight but he has lost the war,watch that space!
> 
> At the end of the the day, Devoy has not got what he wanted, ie the 11% ,and in fact half of that wont be paid for a few months and the other half next year.
> 
> ...


But no criticism of the employers who came in looking for a 10% cut and ended up with a 5% increase. No problem with their actions or behaviour - right?


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## thedaras (13 Jul 2009)

*Re: TEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



Complainer said:


> But no criticism of the employers who came in looking for a 10% cut and ended up with a 5% increase. No problem with their actions or behaviour - right?


 
Trying to protect the jobs that are in the country ,by looking for pay freeze and pay cuts is hardly bad behavior in a recession now is it?

Anyhow the reality is the 5% the electricians will get over the next 6 months will in fact ,not be any use to them for another 12 or more months due to the weeks strike costing them 800e.

And the reality is there will be more jobs lost so less staff to pay the 5% "increase" too.

And how much has/will it cost the union?A lot less subs coming in.
Devoy shouting and screaming for 11% did not work!!

IMHO the employers have won the war,devoy has won the battle,oh and a 27% increase for his troubles...great job,the electricians go on strike for a pay rise of 11%,lose 800e plus,get a 5% increase over the next six months and take a year to make up the loss,more electricans lose jobs,and the message Ireland sends to the world ? ah 
yes wonderful job mr Devoy...well done..


----------



## Purple (14 Jul 2009)

*Re: TEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



thedaras said:


> Trying to protect the jobs that are in the country ,by looking for pay freeze and pay cuts is hardly bad behavior in a recession now is it?
> 
> Anyhow the reality is the 5% the electricians will get over the next 6 months will in fact ,not be any use to them for another 12 or more months due to the weeks strike costing them 800e.
> 
> ...



 Well said, you have summed things up very well and no amount of defensive posturing from the wittering bearded ideologues will change reality.


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## Purple (14 Jul 2009)

*Re: TEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



Complainer said:


> But no criticism of the employers who came in looking for a 10% cut and ended up with a 5% increase. No problem with their actions or behaviour - right?


 Wow... I know things are different in socialist utopia land but here in the real world if companies’ pay more in wages than they can afford they go out of business. The employer side are trying to stop the unions closing down yet another industry, what blame are you talking about?


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## Complainer (14 Jul 2009)

*Re: TEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



thedaras said:


> Trying to protect the jobs that are in the country ,by looking for pay freeze and pay cuts is hardly bad behavior in a recession now is it?
> 
> Anyhow the reality is the 5% the electricians will get over the next 6 months will in fact ,not be any use to them for another 12 or more months due to the weeks strike costing them 800e.
> 
> ...


Just a slightly one-sided view there, I have to say. I know very little about this particular dispute, but I do know that personalised criticism of Devoy for coming out with 5% less that his opening position, while ignoring Parlon's 'lunartics' comment and the employers coming out with 15% less than their opening position is not exactly a balanced critique. Let's face facts here - you just don't like unions, and you take offence that any employees should use their collective bargaining power.


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## Purple (14 Jul 2009)

*Re: TEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*

I can’t speak for Thedaras but maybe it’s a dislike for people who are willing to damage the long term prospects of the people they represent (and in the case of the high-priests of the bearded brethren in their tower overlooking the capital damaging the prospects of the whole country) in order to further their own selfish ends.


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## thedaras (14 Jul 2009)

*Re: TEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



Purple said:


> I can’t speak for Thedaras but maybe it’s a dislike for people who are willing to damage the long term prospects of the people they represent (and in the case of the high-priests of the bearded brethren in their tower overlooking the capital damaging the prospects of the whole country) in order to further their own selfish ends.


 
As the teenagers say    " what he said".   

Couldnt have put it better myself.

Will add that I think only a lunatic would look for an increase in wages and strike for a week in a recession .

Still wonder if the electricans did maths during their courses,Im not being smart here,but really if they thought it through and realised that it would take over a year to get the weeks wage loss back,would they have gone on strike?And if they contuine to strike,well ,do the math!!


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## thedaras (14 Jul 2009)

*Re: TEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*

For anyone in doubt as to the cost of this strike to the ecomony,,
It is estimated that last week's strike may have cost the economy almost €230m.


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## secman (14 Jul 2009)

*Re: TEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*

The assumption here is that the 4.9% increase will be sanctioned ! Of the 4 employer bodies in the dispute only one, namely the ECA have sanctioned the increase. Long way to go yet.

Secman


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## Deiseblue (14 Jul 2009)

*Re: TEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*

The employers were seeking a wage reduction of 10% whereas the TEEU were seeking a wage increase of 11 % - the two positions could hardly have been more polarised !
The basis by which most disputes are resolved is compromise , the TEEU and it's members knew that they were never going to get an increase of 11% no more then the contractors were going to secure a reduction of 10%.
It would appear therefore that a 4.9% increase suited both parties, I think that this was illustrated by the fact that such an increase was agreed by the two parties involved at the LRC on Friday last with the increase merely rubber stamped by the Labour Court the following day.


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## secman (14 Jul 2009)

*Re: TEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*

4.9% suited TEEU, ECA, but probably not AECI (awaiting ballot results), definitely not NECI and most definitely not the NON alligned Group. 

So there you have it, sorted !

On the issue of compromise between 11% increase and 10% reduction, common sense would suggest " status quo" rates stay as is and to be reviewed early next year. Only reason I see for the temporary withdrawal of pickets was to accomodate Builders hols starting this coming Friday. The Brothers need hol pay too.

Secman


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## Latrade (14 Jul 2009)

*Re: TEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



secman said:


> Only reason I see for the temporary withdrawal of pickets was to accomodate Builders hols starting this coming Friday. The Brothers need hol pay too.
> 
> Secman


 
You old cynic you.


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## Sunny (14 Jul 2009)

*Re: TEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



secman said:


> 4.9% suited TEEU, ECA, but probably not AECI (awaiting ballot results), definitely not NECI and most definitely not the NON alligned Group.
> 
> So there you have it, sorted !
> 
> ...


 
I had the same thoughts!


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## Complainer (14 Jul 2009)

*Re: TEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



thedaras said:


> Will add that I think only a lunatic would look for an increase in wages and strike for a week in a recession .
> 
> Still wonder if the electricans did maths during their courses,Im not being smart here,but really if they thought it through and realised that it would take over a year to get the weeks wage loss back,would they have gone on strike?And if they contuine to strike,well ,do the math!!


Yeah, that must be the only explanation - the thousands of electricians out there who pay their union subs and voted for industrial action are both crazy and stupid. There is no other possible explanation, given that their views differ from yours - right?


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## csirl (14 Jul 2009)

*Re: TEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



> Anyhow the reality is the 5% the electricians will get over the next 6 months will in fact ,not be any use to them for another 12 or more months due to the weeks strike costing them 800e.
> 
> And the reality is there will be more jobs lost so less staff to pay the 5% "increase" too.


 
Classic ploy by clever employers side.

Give the unions an increase equal or less than the value of the wages payments you saved while the employees were on strike


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## Complainer (14 Jul 2009)

*Re: TEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



csirl said:


> Classic ploy by clever employers side.
> 
> Give the unions an increase equal or less than the value of the wages payments you saved while the employees were on strike


Most employers aren't that dumb. They understand that an increase in wages goes on forever.


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## Purple (14 Jul 2009)

*Re: TEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



Complainer said:


> Most employers aren't that dumb. They understand that an increase in wages goes on forever.



Unlike their businesses if stupid pay increases are given...


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## Mpsox (14 Jul 2009)

*Re: TEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



Complainer said:


> Yeah, that must be the only explanation - the thousands of electricians out there who pay their union subs and voted for industrial action are both crazy and stupid. There is no other possible explanation, given that their views differ from yours - right?


 
I know one guy quite well who employs around 10 electricians, his view on the deal is quite simple, to pay for it and to continue to balance his books and stay in business  he'll have to make one of them redundant and the other 9 will have to pick up the slack. He's probably not the only employer who is in that position. So, on that basis, were his employees who went out on strike crazy and stupid? I think we know the answer to that


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## thedaras (14 Jul 2009)

*Re: TEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



secman said:


> 4.9% suited teeu, eca, but probably not aeci (awaiting ballot results), definitely not neci and most definitely not the non alligned group.
> 
> So there you have it, sorted !
> 
> ...


 
here here..


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## thedaras (14 Jul 2009)

*Re: TEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



Complainer said:


> Most employers aren't that dumb. They understand that an increase in wages goes on forever.


 
"forever" ,God,what union are you in!!..Do the grandkids inherit the 1.25 a week and then on and on or what?


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## DonDub (14 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



Deiseblue said:


> I am sue your friends in Morgan and Merrills are earning good money and more power to them !
> The questions I would ask are :
> Do they work a 35 hour week ?
> Do they get paid overtime ?
> ...


 

I beg to differ - the so called compromise is in fact another nail in the coffin of our economy. Here we have workers in the most severly impacted sector of the economy (employment levels down by 50% and falling) arguing that they are 'entitled' to a certain income level under the terms of a Registered Employment Agreement (REA). What a brilliant idea - why don't we all contract to REAs, lets say, with a minimum pay level of €25/hour. Now, if everyone in the country is paid this rate, then according to the 'brothers' logic, the race to the bottom will be stopped in its tracks, as all tenders for work would be pitched at the same price - perhaps contracts would be awarded on some other criteria e.g. best looking workers, or funniest worker or cleverest worker. We could all live happily every after......One slight problem though......for this to work, we would need the rest of the world to agree to pay us above market prices to sustain our utopia.....all we need to do is persuade the other 6 billion people on the planet that we are 'special' and should be allowed to defy the fundamental laws of economics. Alternatively, and apologies in advance for the riduculus suggestion - we could recognise that we have priced ourselves out of world markets, and that no one owes us a living, and to attain a reasonable and sustainable standard of living we will have to compete, in terms of price, quality and service - at home and abroad................mad or what........


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## Purple (14 Jul 2009)

*Re: TEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*

DonDub...fantastic post. The unions will have you strung up.



DonDub said:


> What a brilliant idea - why don't we all contract to REAs


 How the hell are these agreements legal? People should be paid what they are worth, what they agree with their employer or customer. If anything like this was trashed out between business owners it would be called a cartel. Imagine if solicitors got together and agreed the minimum rates that they would charge per hour? It’s madness.


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## room305 (15 Jul 2009)

*Re: TEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



Purple said:


> How the hell are these agreements legal? People should be paid what they are worth, what they agree with their employer or customer. If anything like this was trashed out between business owners it would be called a cartel. Imagine if solicitors got together and agreed the minimum rates that they would charge per hour? It’s madness.



It certainly is crazy, especially when you consider the variance of difficulty in electrical work available. Why does a guy working with PLCs or complicated automation projects get paid the same as a guy hauling cable?

I don't understand why the electricians themselves tolerate it?


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## Deiseblue (15 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



DonDub said:


> I beg to differ - the so called compromise is in fact another nail in the coffin of our economy. Here we have workers in the most severly impacted sector of the economy (employment levels down by 50% and falling) arguing that they are 'entitled' to a certain income level under the terms of a Registered Employment Agreement (REA). What a brilliant idea - why don't we all contract to REAs, lets say, with a minimum pay level of €25/hour. Now, if everyone in the country is paid this rate, then according to the 'brothers' logic, the race to the bottom will be stopped in its tracks, as all tenders for work would be pitched at the same price - perhaps contracts would be awarded on some other criteria e.g. best looking workers, or funniest worker or cleverest worker. We could all live happily every after......One slight problem though......for this to work, we would need the rest of the world to agree to pay us above market prices to sustain our utopia.....all we need to do is persuade the other 6 billion people on the planet that we are 'special' and should be allowed to defy the fundamental laws of economics. Alternatively, and apologies in advance for the riduculus suggestion - we could recognise that we have priced ourselves out of world markets, and that no one owes us a living, and to attain a reasonable and sustainable standard of living we will have to compete, in terms of price, quality and service - at home and abroad................mad or what........


The employers in the context of resolving this dispute felt that a pay rise of 4.9% was sustainable - perhaps they know more than us about the sustainability of their industry ?


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## Purple (15 Jul 2009)

*Re: NEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



Deiseblue said:


> The employers in the context of resolving this dispute felt that a pay rise of 4.9% was sustainable - perhaps they know more than us about the sustainability of their industry ?


 Have you read any of the details posted above about this?


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## ajapale (15 Jul 2009)

*Re: TEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*



Purple said:


> How the hell are these agreements legal?



Hi Purple,

Im about to post a related question (without the emotive language ) concerning the background and history of REA's.

Does anyone know what the history and background of REA's is?

As far as I know REA's have been established by various acts of the Oireachtas and statutory instruments and are ipso facto legal. The legality of this particular REA is being challenged at present and we can await the outcome of the courts determination.

aj


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## ajapale (15 Jul 2009)

*Re: TEETU Eletricians Dispute (Eamon Devoy on Joe Duffy)*

This thread relates to the TEETU Eletricians Dispute which is in the Private Sector. 

There are tons of other threads dealing with the public sector. 

Unrelated posts which do not deal with the TEETU Dispute with the Electrical Contractors have been moved here .

aj 
moderator


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## secman (21 Jul 2009)

AECI ballot deadline is tomorrow, interesting to see outcome.

Secman


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## Hoagy (22 Jul 2009)

According to[broken link removed]on the NECI website:


_"National Electrical Contractors of Ireland (NECI) welcome the decision by the *members of AECI to reject the 4.9% pay increase (€1.05)* as proposed in the non-binding recommendation from the Labour Court for the electricians working in the electrical contracting industry."_


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## Shawady (23 Jul 2009)

Do the electrians have to be balloted again or will the be straight into another strike when they come back from the builder's holidays?


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## Deiseblue (23 Jul 2009)

The strike was suspended pending response from contractors.
No ballot required to recommence strike.


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## secman (23 Jul 2009)

This decision by AECI was not a surprise at all, 80% voted NO. 
When one looks at the overall state of the Country, borrowing €400 million per week , it is astounding that we have Union leaders looking for pay increases!
 Only yesterday we had the plant in Shannon citing our high cost base as a major factor in the decision to close their Plant in Ireland.

ECA are out on a limb now, AECI, NECI and the 3rd non alligned group are in unison on this one.

Secman


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## secman (23 Jul 2009)

Deiseblue said:


> The strike was suspended pending response from contractors.
> No ballot required to recommence strike.


 The strike was suspended for the Brothers holidays more like it.

Secman


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## Deiseblue (23 Jul 2009)

secman said:


> The strike was suspended for the Brothers holidays more like it.
> 
> Secman


Lets be honest here - there really is no point in striking if everybody is on holidays is there ?
Interesting times ahead if employers can blithely ignore a Labour Court recommendation , if the Unions did that there would be murder !


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## Purple (23 Jul 2009)

Deiseblue said:


> Lets be honest here - there really is no point in striking if everybody is on holidays is there ?
> Interesting times ahead if employers can blithely ignore a Labour Court recommendation , if the Unions did that there would be murder !



The unions do it on a regular basis.


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## secman (23 Jul 2009)

Deiseblue said:


> Lets be honest here - there really is no point in striking if everybody is on holidays is there ?
> Interesting times ahead if employers can blithely ignore a Labour Court recommendation , if the Unions did that there would be murder !


 Lets be honest here, the strike was suspended for the Brothers holidays.
Lets get the facts right here, the Labour court issued a NON binding recommendation, so the 3 Employer bodies who said no, were within their rights to reject the proposal. A pay increase in the current Construction economic climate is simply "brain dead" logic. ( just got off the fence there)

Secman


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## Deiseblue (24 Jul 2009)

Presumably the thousands of electricians employed by the contractors represented by the ECA will receive the 4.9% increase ?
Hopefully the probe initiated by the Tanaiste into the strike will find a solution to prevent an all out strike from the 1st September


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## Deiseblue (24 Jul 2009)

Forgot to make another observation.
I think I'm correct in stating that all parties had agreed to a mutually satisfactory resolution before going to the Labour Court who rubber stamped a 4.9% increase ( non binding ) ?
As you say one of the bodies involved have failed to convince their members on this resoution and thus they have voted it down as is their right.
As such the TEEU are mandated again to initiate an all out strike to enforce the Labour Court recommendation as is their right , presuming of course the matter is not resolved in the short term.


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## secman (24 Jul 2009)

Many , many electricians did not support the strike and in fact worked right throughout the strike, once the place of work was not picketed. So it is fair to say they do not have the support they purport to have from their members. There are now 3 employer groups opposing the rate increase, only the big boys, ECA are backing it. This is really the kernal of the problem, the big boys dictating the rates for the entire industry. A long way to go yet.

Secman


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## Deiseblue (24 Jul 2009)

secman said:


> Many , many electricians did not support the strike and in fact worked right throughout the strike, once the place of work was not picketed. So it is fair to say they do not have the support they purport to have from their members. There are now 3 employer groups opposing the rate increase, only the big boys, ECA are backing it. This is really the kernal of the problem, the big boys dictating the rates for the entire industry. A long way to go yet.
> 
> Secman


Purely anecdotal concerning support for the strike - where did you get your info ?
The strike action caused huge disruption in the construction sector - I presume you agree ?
Long way to go as you say , hopefully not culminating in an all out strike


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## secman (24 Jul 2009)

They picketed the sites that would get airtime ,namely the large ECA run sites, many many construction sites operated without interuption, believe you me. I have spoken to many electricians , all of whom worked during the dispute, and none of them had been balloted, they are saying that with the state of the sector, they would gladly take a pay cut rather than have no work at all, as they have many colleagues out of work. 

I find it hard to stomach that TEEU believe the sector can take a pay increase, its just astounding, truly astounding. It was patently clear during the talks that ECA being affilaited to CIF tried to bully AECI into accepting the deal on the table. The large builders had been putting severe pressure on ECA to get it sorted. But at the same time large builders are putting pressure on electrical contractors to drop their prices !

Secman


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## room305 (24 Jul 2009)

Deiseblue said:


> Interesting times ahead if employers can blithely ignore a Labour Court recommendation , if the Unions did that there would be murder !



The Dublin Bus drivers in the Harristown Depot striking over a change to the timetable springs immediately to mind as an example of a union ignoring a labour court recommendation. That was okay apparently because the labour court didn't really understand bus timetables (until they issued a recommendation the union agreed with that is).


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## Deiseblue (25 Jul 2009)

secman said:


> They picketed the sites that would get airtime ,namely the large ECA run sites, many many construction sites operated without interuption, believe you me. I have spoken to many electricians , all of whom worked during the dispute, and none of them had been balloted, they are saying that with the state of the sector, they would gladly take a pay cut rather than have no work at all, as they have many colleagues out of work.
> 
> I find it hard to stomach that TEEU believe the sector can take a pay increase, its just astounding, truly astounding. It was patently clear during the talks that ECA being affilaited to CIF tried to bully AECI into accepting the deal on the table. The large builders had been putting severe pressure on ECA to get it sorted. But at the same time large builders are putting pressure on electrical contractors to drop their prices !
> 
> Secman


Kieran Mulvey of the LRC and the two contractor representative bodies also believed that a 4.9% pay increase was reasonable as they agreed on that figure prior to having the increase rubber stamped by the Labour Court - in other words everybody at the talks agreed on the increase !
 I have to point out again that your evidence regarding the lack of support for the dispute is purely anecdotal !
The disruption as I say was huge and extremely well targeted.


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## Deiseblue (25 Jul 2009)

room305 said:


> The Dublin Bus drivers in the Harristown Depot striking over a change to the timetable springs immediately to mind as an example of a union ignoring a labour court recommendation. That was okay apparently because the labour court didn't really understand bus timetables (until they issued a recommendation the union agreed with that is).


I have to correct you , the Union did not ignore the Labour Court recommendation - the strike was unofficial and not union sanctioned.


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## Purple (25 Jul 2009)

How about getting rid of these stupid and out dated collectivist agreements and let people negotiate their wages based on their skill and the value they bring to the table (just like nearly everyone else in the country)?


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## shanegl (25 Jul 2009)

Purple said:


> How about getting rid of these stupid and out dated collectivist agreements and let people negotiate their wages based on their skill and the value they bring to the table (just like nearly everyone else in the country)?



Crazy talk!


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## secman (27 Jul 2009)

Deiseblue said:


> Kieran Mulvey of the LRC and the two contractor representative bodies also believed that a 4.9% pay increase was reasonable as they agreed on that figure prior to having the increase rubber stamped by the Labour Court - in other words everybody at the talks agreed on the increase !
> I have to point out again that your evidence regarding the lack of support for the dispute is purely anecdotal !
> The disruption as I say was huge and extremely well targeted.


 
I have factual knowledge of many sites that operated during the strike, and you are factually wrong stating that 2 employer bodies agreed to the increase , only one did. namely ECA. They only caved in due to pressure within CIF, from big builders. On another note, it would appear that the 3 employer groups opposing the increase are in some kind of discussion. This would be a very welcome move and would leave the ECA very isolated, only representing 50 employers and the other Group if amalgamated would represent some 1,000 plus , basically the vast majority of contractors. 

Secman


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## DublinTexas (27 Jul 2009)

Purple said:


> How about getting rid of these stupid and out dated collectivist agreements and let people negotiate their wages based on their skill and the value they bring to the table (just like nearly everyone else in the country)?


 
I agree 100%.


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## Deiseblue (27 Jul 2009)

secman said:


> I have factual knowledge of many sites that operated during the strike, and you are factually wrong stating that 2 employer bodies agreed to the increase , only one did. namely ECA. They only caved in due to pressure within CIF, from big builders. On another note, it would appear that the 3 employer groups opposing the increase are in some kind of discussion. This would be a very welcome move and would leave the ECA very isolated, only representing 50 employers and the other Group if amalgamated would represent some 1,000 plus , basically the vast majority of contractors.
> 
> Secman


The ECA and the AEC representative bodies both agreed that the increase of 4.9% was a reasonable compromise , I of course appreciate that the AEC did not manage to sell this view to their members.
The strike caused huge disruption and was extremely well targeted - obviously it targeted the bigger high profile sites.
Unfortunately I cannot accept your assertion that the strike had little support as the TEEU had a 93% mandate from their members.
The AEC have ceded the high moral ground at this stage having ignored a Labour Court recommendation which they helped to broker , something that is not going to sit well with ICTU.
Interesting times ahead !


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## Hoagy (27 Jul 2009)

Deiseblue said:


> The ECA and the AEC representative bodies both agreed that the increase of 4.9% was a reasonable compromise


 
As far as I know the AECI didn't agree to the increase at the talks.  It was fairly clear that the members would reject any increase which was put to them.

From the LRC document:

_Noting that agreement on the issue of pay in the electrical contracting
industry has been beyond the parties in the course of these engagements,
meeting together or separately under the Chair of the Labour Relations
Commission, the Commission will proceed to refer the matter to the Labour
Court for non-binding arbitration in accordance with section 26(1) of the​Industrial Relations Act, 1990. This referral will take place immediately.
_


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## secman (27 Jul 2009)

AECI are listening to their hundreds of members who voted by a large majority to reject the *NON* binding recommendation issued by LRC. The AECI members at the meeting did *NOT* accept the recommendation, hence it was issued as a NON binding one.
The ECA will be a minority group, representing about 50 or so members, which will reduce in January( renewal date) by definitely one member ! The others if they amalgamate, will represent a huge majority of Contractors, over 1,000 of them.
ECA buckled at a time when support was waining, other trades had begun to pass the pickets, with the hols looming and also realizing how much better paid the sparks are in relation to other trades. There were several flash points on the big sites where sparks had to back off from other trades passing pickets.

Secman


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## Hoagy (27 Jul 2009)

secman said:


> The others if they amalgamate, will represent a huge majority of Contractors, over 1,000 of them.


 
Still less than 20% of the total, though.


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## secman (27 Jul 2009)

Hoagy said:


> Still less than 20% of the total, though.


 You reckon there are 4,000  Electrical contracors who are not in Employer Groups and who are also employers ? (other 80%)

Secman


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## Hoagy (27 Jul 2009)

secman said:


> You reckon there are 4,000 Electrical contracors who are not in Employer Groups and who are also employers ? (other 80%)
> 
> Secman


 
From the NECI website..

.. _NECI will continue to highlight the fact that a little over 200 employers fromIrelands 5275 Registered Electrical Contractors are represented at the ENJIC*.*_

They don't say how many are employers. Equally they don't say how many of their members are employers.
Mind you I'm sure there are quite a few who used to be employers.


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## Deiseblue (27 Jul 2009)

secman said:


> AECI are listening to their hundreds of members who voted by a large majority to reject the *NON* binding recommendation issued by LRC. The AECI members at the meeting did *NOT* accept the recommendation, hence it was issued as a NON binding one.
> The ECA will be a minority group, representing about 50 or so members, which will reduce in January( renewal date) by definitely one member ! The others if they amalgamate, will represent a huge majority of Contractors, over 1,000 of them.
> ECA buckled at a time when support was waining, other trades had begun to pass the pickets, with the hols looming and also realizing how much better paid the sparks are in relation to other trades. There were several flash points on the big sites where sparks had to back off from other trades passing pickets.
> 
> Secman


More anecdotal " facts '  about waning support for the strike.
Lets review the progress made by the TEEU's actions - the 10% pay cut has been shelved.
The 4.9% increase will be paid to the 5,000 plus electricians employed by ECA members.
Denis Judge of the breakaway admitted on Morning Ireland that they could pay the 4.9% pay increase so there should be no problem there surely ?
Hopefully the probe into the strike and the threat of an all out strike will sort out any remaining problems.


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## secman (27 Jul 2009)

ECA can go ahead and pay the increase, but the other Employer groups have decided NO.

NECI broke away from NO one ! This was corrected by Denis Judge many times on the air waves. 

Secman


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## Hoagy (5 Aug 2009)

According to this report,


_"Two senior industrial relations trouble-shooters are to head up an inquiry into last month’s crippling electricians’ strike, it was revealed today._
_Tánaiste Mary Coughlan has appointed former Congress general secretary Peter Cassells and former Labour Court chairman Finbarr Flood to investigate the bitter row._
_But the major sticking point of pay will not be investigated as the Labour Court has already dealt with the issue."_


We can expect a balanced report, then_.._


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## secman (5 Aug 2009)

_"Two senior industrial relations trouble-shooters are to head up an inquiry into last month’s crippling electricians’ strike, it was revealed today._
_Tánaiste Mary Coughlan has appointed former Congress general secretary Peter Cassells and former Labour Court chairman Finbarr Flood to investigate the bitter row._
_*But the major sticking point of pay will not be investigated as the Labour Court has already dealt with the issue."*_

 But the increase has been rejected by the vast majority of Employers in the Sector. Whats the point Mary ?

Secman


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## DublinTexas (5 Aug 2009)

secman said:


> _"Two senior industrial relations trouble-shooters are to head up an inquiry into last month’s crippling electricians’ strike, it was revealed today._
> _Tánaiste Mary Coughlan has appointed former Congress general secretary Peter Cassells and former Labour Court chairman Finbarr Flood to investigate the bitter row._
> _*But the major sticking point of pay will not be investigated as the Labour Court has already dealt with the issue."*_
> 
> ...


 
Another quango that is not needed and just will cost us money that would be better spend on other things.

It is really time we overthrow (peacefully by civil action) our unelected fearless leader and send him back to his home county so that he can do his evil down there.


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## secman (27 Aug 2009)

I note that the ECA have written to their members this week , all 50 of them, reminding them of the pay increase on the 1st Sept. ! They really have backed themselves into a tight corner on this one. Interesting to see what the wise men appointed by Mary will come up with ?

Secman


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