# Another great day for Independent newspapers



## Z100 (5 Mar 2007)

Their front page story today about the man who died in the (so far) mysterious accident in Lucan at the weekend contains the following line:

*"It is understood the 24-year-old victim was known to gardai and had a number of previous convictions."*

RTE reported this on their 7am radio news this mornng.

The Gardai have since confirmed that he was *not *known to them and had *no *previous convictions. His distraught mother has just been on the news talking about him. He survived two bouts of leukemia and was a volunteer/youth worker. He was, it seems, a good young fella, but he's been made out to be just another toerag by the Indo.

Where on earth did the Indo get its information? Was it the same source that gave them info on Liam Lawlor's crash? 

I know you can't libel the dead, but I really wish his family could go after the Indo for this.


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## ajapale (5 Mar 2007)

Just one more example to throw back at the print editors and journalists when they begin their self-serving bleat about Ireland's "_draconian defamation laws_".

Apart from a handfull of lawyers speaking in the broadcast media I hear very little defence of our defamation laws. I have yet to read an article in the print media which defends our current defamation laws.


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## Purple (5 Mar 2007)

John Waters has spoken about the lack of balance in the editorials of the print media about our defamation laws.


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## ajapale (5 Mar 2007)

Purple said:


> John Waters .......



Thanks Purple,

John Waters is certainly a very interesting writer and broadcaster.

aj


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## ubiquitous (5 Mar 2007)

They did use the words "It is understood"...


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## Z100 (5 Mar 2007)

ajapale said:


> Just one more example to throw back at the print editors and journalists when they begin their self-serving bleat about Ireland's "_draconian defamation laws_".
> 
> Apart from a handfull of lawyers speaking in the broadcast media I hear very little defence of our defamation laws. I have yet to read an article in the print media which defends our current defamation laws.



I don't know enough about our libel/defamation laws to say if they're as draconian as is claimed, but I certainly don't want laws that protect those who don't deserve to be protected (eg crooked politicians, etc) because they muzzle the press.

But this case is just about shocking journalism, although I would love to know where the reporter got their information. Did it serve someone well to blacken the name of the victim?


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## Z100 (5 Mar 2007)

ubiquitous said:


> They did use the words "It is understood"...



So they were aware they might possibly be publishing something that wasn't true??!!


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## Z100 (5 Mar 2007)

Purple said:


> John Waters has spoken about the lack of balance in the editorials of the print media about our defamation laws.



Waters actually 'benefited' from our libel laws when he won that case against the Indo. To this day I still don't know how he won it. He specialises in personal attacks on those who don't agree with his agenda (Carol Coulter most recently), but when someone responded in kind he headed straight to court. People in glasshouses.............


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## ubiquitous (5 Mar 2007)

> So they were aware they might possibly be publishing something that wasn't true??!!



Indeed. Why else would they use the phrase "It is understood"..." , which incidentally is regularly used by all media sources in this country, most prominently RTE.


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## Z100 (5 Mar 2007)

ubiquitous said:


> Indeed. Why else would they use the phrase "It is understood"..." , which incidentally is regularly used by all media sources in this country, most prominently RTE.



Yes, "it is understood" is commonly used, but in acceptable enough contexts like 'it is understood Mr Smith has agreed to stand for Fianna Fail in Laois/Offaly', etc, ie harmless enough speculation that is well enough sourced. It is unacceptable to use it to try to cover your ass because you know there's a chance the information you're about to reveal will prove to be utterly untrue!


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## ubiquitous (5 Mar 2007)

Bushfire said:


> Yes, "it is understood" is commonly used, but in acceptable enough contexts like 'it is understood Mr Smith has agreed to stand for Fianna Fail in Laois/Offaly', etc, ie harmless enough speculation that is well enough sourced.



Well, Paul Reynolds, RTE's crime correspondent say "it is understood that the victim was known to Gardai" and even "it is understood that the victim was not known to Gardai" pretty much every time a shooting is reported on the news




> harmless enough speculation that is well enough sourced.


An oxymoron, perhaps?


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## Z100 (5 Mar 2007)

ubiquitous said:


> Well, Paul Reynolds, RTE's crime correspondent say "it is understood that the victim was known to Gardai" and even "it is understood that the victim was not known to Gardai" pretty much every time a shooting is reported on the news



I could be wrong here, but I don't ever remember Paul Reynolds getting it wrong when he claimed a victim was known to Gardai, do you? And isn't that the key point here? Are you saying that because the Indo used "it is understood" before a false allegation against the victim, that that's okay?



ubiquitous said:


> An oxymoron, perhaps?



True, 'well sourced speculation' _does _indeed rival 'military intelligence' in the oxymoron stakes, but I assume you got my point? "It is understood Enda Kenny will appoint ?? as his ?? spokesman," is hardly the same as what appeared in the Indo today.


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## ClubMan (5 Mar 2007)

Bushfire said:


> Yes, "it is understood" is commonly used, but in acceptable enough contexts like 'it is understood Mr Smith has agreed to stand for Fianna Fail in Laois/Offaly'


Not necessarily - some people might find that insinuation defamatory.



Bushfire said:


> I could be wrong here, but I don't ever remember Paul Reynolds getting it wrong when he claimed a victim was known to Gardai, do you?


Whatever about actually having previous convictions what does _"known to Gardaí_" actually mean and why does it matter?


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## Z100 (5 Mar 2007)

ClubMan said:


> Not necessarily - some people might find that insinuation defamatory.



It could have been worse, I could have linked Mr Smith with the PDs.


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## Z100 (5 Mar 2007)

ClubMan said:


> Whatever about actually having previous convictions what does _"known to Gardaí_" actually mean and why does it matter?



Good point. I always take it as meaning the Gardai knew he was a good for nothing lowlife, but couldn't find a shred of evidence to prove it.

In this report, though, the victim was not only "known" to the Gardai, but also had a "number of previous convictions". Incredible.


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## Luternau (5 Mar 2007)

It is understood ...
Bush
Iraq have weapons of mass destruction--so its therefore ok to bomb the country to bits and then say you got it wrong?
Or Chemical Ali saying to the faithful
Our defenses are holding up well! and then be the first to leg it when the tanks arrive!
I dont understand. Since was it understood to spread mis-information! ;-)


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## Z100 (5 Mar 2007)

Luternau said:


> It is understood ...
> 
> Chemical Ali saying to the faithful
> 
> Our defenses are holding up well! and then be the first to leg it when the tanks arrive!



  Maybe that's what Chemical Ali's doing now, News Editor in the Indo?


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## ClubMan (5 Mar 2007)

Bushfire said:


> Good point. I always take it as meaning the Gardai knew he was a good for nothing lowlife, but couldn't find a shred of evidence to prove it.


And I'm sure that most people assume that too. It's a very sinister phrase in my opinion but I guess it suits certain groups to propagate it.


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## Purple (5 Mar 2007)

Bushfire said:


> Maybe that's what Chemical Ali's doing now, News Editor in the Indo?


 That's defamatory! On the other hand if you had said that "It is understood that Chemical Ali..."


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## Z100 (5 Mar 2007)

Purple said:


> That's defamatory! On the other hand if you had said that "It is understood that Chemical Ali..."



The big question is: did I defame Chemical Ali or the Indo?


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## Purple (5 Mar 2007)

Oh, Chemical Ali. Sorry for not being clear.


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## michaelm (5 Mar 2007)

Luternau said:


> . . Or Chemical Ali saying to the faithful
> Our defenses are holding up well! and then be the first to leg it when the tanks arrive!


A moot point but I believe that your are paraphrasing Comical Ali; Chemical Ali was another card in the deck.


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## Z100 (5 Mar 2007)

michaelm said:


> A moot point but I believe that your are paraphrasing Comical Ali; Chemical Ali was another card in the deck.



Spot on.

Loved this line from Wikipedia:

_When asked where he had got his information he replied, "authentic sources - many authentic sources"._

So it's Comical, not Chemical, Ali who's working for the Indo.


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## Luternau (5 Mar 2007)

Good detective work there. So it was -Comical Ali.  
It is understood that...I stand corrected on that moot point! ;-)


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## Z100 (6 Mar 2007)

The Indo today, paragraph nine:

"Senior garda officers emphasised last night that Mr O'Toole was not, *as had been reported*, known to the force and he had no criminal record or history."

As reported by who? 

The Indo.


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## Sunny (6 Mar 2007)

What I don't get is why they thought the fact (or lie) that he was known to Gardai was even worth reporting. Even if he was Dublins biggest gangster, he was still killed in a traffic accident so who cares if he was a politician or a drug dealer. He was just a 24 year old man. I guess the indo are trying to say that some lives are worth less than others. I felt so sorry for the guys family. I hope they got a sincere public apology from the paper but have my doubts. Such sloppy lazy journalism in the Liam Lawlor mould. You would have thought they would have learnt their lesson.


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## Z100 (7 Mar 2007)

Sunny said:


> What I don't get is why they thought the fact (or lie) that he was known to Gardai was even worth reporting. Even if he was Dublins biggest gangster, he was still killed in a traffic accident so who cares if he was a politician or a drug dealer. He was just a 24 year old man. I guess the indo are trying to say that some lives are worth less than others. I felt so sorry for the guys family. I hope they got a sincere public apology from the paper but have my doubts. Such sloppy lazy journalism in the Liam Lawlor mould. You would have thought they would have learnt their lesson.



I think the real question is who told the Indo the man was known to the Gardai, and why? Who wanted to blacken his name, and why?


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## ajapale (7 Mar 2007)

I think the simplest explanation is just plain lazy unprofessional journalism.


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## Sunny (7 Mar 2007)

ajapale said:


> I think the simplest explanation is just plain lazy unprofessional journalism.


 

I agree. Think they heard Clondalkin and Youth and jumped to conclusions. Even if the guards did try and blacken his name, there is still no reason for the paper to print it. Had nothing whatsoever to do with the story.


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## ClubMan (7 Mar 2007)

Sunny said:


> I agree. Think they heard Clondalkin and Youth and jumped to conclusions.


Wouldn't happen here on _AAM _though. Er, um...


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## almo (8 Mar 2007)

I only heard about this last night when speaking with my Mam, who works in Lucan and one of her colleagues is a cousin of the lads Mam.  Has nobody drawn a line between the obvious:
4 Gardai, coming home from Westmanstown late at night, hit a pedestrian
Immediately he's a scumbag "allegedly" and the public say (when stirred by the gutter press - ie Indo) serves him right, maybe the poor Gardai were chasing him, he got what was coming to him
But of course it turns out to be a total lie, the car being driven disappears, the Park says "our lads were all stone cold sober" and the country turns on the Indo for bad reporting.
Who fed the story to the Indo?
Why were the details so false?  (We can't solely blame lazy journalism)


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## Howitzer (8 Mar 2007)

Has an apology been published yet?


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## Z100 (8 Mar 2007)

almo said:


> I only heard about this last night when speaking with my Mam, who works in Lucan and one of her colleagues is a cousin of the lads Mam.  Has nobody drawn a line between the obvious:
> 4 Gardai, coming home from Westmanstown late at night, hit a pedestrian
> Immediately he's a scumbag "allegedly" and the public say (when stirred by the gutter press - ie Indo) serves him right, maybe the poor Gardai were chasing him, he got what was coming to him
> But of course it turns out to be a total lie, the car being driven disappears, the Park says "our lads were all stone cold sober" and the country turns on the Indo for bad reporting.
> ...



Have never agreed more with a post, my thoughts _*exactly*_.


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## Joe1234 (8 Mar 2007)

almo said:


> I (when stirred by the gutter press - ie Indo)



Not defending the Indo, but if they are the "gutter press" what are the tabloids??


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## ClubMan (8 Mar 2007)

The sewer press?


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## almo (9 Mar 2007)

They're not even Press.  Joe, in the weeks before Ollie Byrne got sick the Indo were hounding him and aching to slam him as much as possible, suddenly he becomes a hero of the nation when he gets ill and he's a great man.  Sinn Fein/IRA (their moniker - Indo's) are at fault for everything from global warming, to Steve Staunton, to Croke Park not being handed over to the FAI - it's a scum mentality and it's ruining the paper.



Joe1234 said:


> Not defending the Indo, but if they are the "gutter press" what are the tabloids??


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## RainyDay (11 Mar 2007)

So those charming people at the Indo excelled themselves today. On the day that a man is burying his wife and infant child, they seem to think that it is OK to drag up past professional controversies and plaster these with his picture on the front page. 

This is surely a new low, even for the SIndo - Do the journalists and editors who come up with this pile of stinking faeces have any conscience or bare trace of humanity left? Given that I swore never to pay over cash to the Indo years ago, I guess all I can do now is avoid their website too, to ensure they aren't earning any advertising income from me.


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## Z100 (11 Mar 2007)

RainyDay said:


> So those charming people at the Indo excelled themselves today. On the day that a man is burying his wife and infant child, they seem to think that it is OK to drag up past professional controversies and plaster these with his picture on the front page.
> 
> This is surely a new low, even for the SIndo - Do the journalists and editors who come up with this pile of stinking faeces have any conscience or bare trace of humanity left? Given that I swore never to pay over cash to the Indo years ago, I guess all I can do now is avoid their website too, to ensure they aren't earning any advertising income from me.



Yeah, I was fairly speechless when I saw that today. Even if the man had committed crimes against humanity I think he had the right to bury his wife and child in peace (with one small child to look after and the other twin critical in hospital). Incredible.


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## franmac (12 Mar 2007)

Bushfire said:


> Have never agreed more with a post, my thoughts _*exactly*_.


 
There are certainly questions to be answered regarding this accident. The police station in Lucan is not far from where the accident happened so why was the driver of the car taken to a station elsewhere to be breathalised?

There is some thing wrong there.


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## Z100 (12 Mar 2007)

franmac said:


> There are certainly questions to be answered regarding this accident. The police station in Lucan is not far from where the accident happened so why was the driver of the car taken to a station elsewhere to be breathalised? There is some thing wrong there.



According to the Gardai he was to taken to Harcourt St to be tested on an intoxyliser machine because the Lucan station doesn't have one (which is amazing for such a big and busy station). I presume this is standard procedure (is it?), ie that you're first breathalysed at the scene of an accident and then taken to a station to be tested on an intoxyliser?


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## Glenbhoy (12 Mar 2007)

Slightly off topic, but yesterday's Sindo front page, concerning the garda   who's wife died in childbirth during the week was extremely insensitive and of no relevance.


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## Z100 (12 Mar 2007)

almo said:


> did anyone read Willie "I've got the gun and can use it" O'Dea's attrociously penned attack on Sinn Fein



Poor Willie, he's having sleepless nights worrying about Sinn Fein in the election  



almo said:


> ...the fact that the man wasn't lying in the road



Well, they say he was, that there was no damage to the car to suggest he was standing when hit. Short of an independent examination of the car we'll never know any different.

What stands out most for me on this case is how badly the Gardai have handled it, in terms of the information they have given out, so much of it contradictory. It's quite possible that the accident happened exactly as they have described and that the Garda driver is 100% innocent, but they have brought suspicion on themselves by making a mess of the whole thing. Only an independent enquiry will sort this out.


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## polaris (12 Mar 2007)

Have the Indo cast any light on why they originally reported that Derek O'Toole "was known to gardai and had a number of previous convictions"?

Was it a case of lazy journalism or did the reporter in question receive a "tip off" from a source within the gardai. if it was the latter, then it suggests that something underhand is going on.


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## almo (12 Mar 2007)

The Indo did their best today, as you might have read in the article, to extricate themselves from the mess (as well as the rather sideways shot at the grieving Garda over the weekend) by attacking Sunday "tabloids" from the UK for speculating.  But in doing so they set up a lot of very unsavoury tastes.  Like the Garda in questions Uncle is a high ranking member of the force, that the nephew phoned said Uncle and the Uncle appeared on the scene and drove him home.  While the Indo were a little devious in the way it was written, it actually opens up the avenue for more allegations.  

While it's better to see a conspiracy in it all, in all likelihood the situation was an accident.  The "leaks" could have been lazy jourmalism (for which the Indo are famous) and those suffering are the young Garda who was driving and the family of the lad killed.  Otherwise there will have to be resignations from the newspaper and Gardai.


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## ajapale (12 Mar 2007)

almo said:


> (as well as the rather sideways shot at the grieving Garda over the weekend)



I thought that the SI's frontpage coverage (headline, picture and article) yesterday to be *lousy and mean spirited*.

Im inclined to think that this is more than just 'lazy journalism' it shows an cynical disregard for the privacy and feelings of a grieving family in the persuit of a 'story' to boost circulation figures.


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## ubiquitous (12 Mar 2007)

Can anyone explain why the story of the death of the mother and child was carried so prominently on all broadcast media last Friday? There are a handful of maternal deaths each year (including that of a close friend of my own some years ago) and I can never remember any similar case being given the coverage that this case received.


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## almo (12 Mar 2007)

ajapale, I had to be a little more careful than I was earlier as I figure my post this morning was a little on the libellous (or misguided side) and was rightly removed from the thread - which is fair enough.  

The attitude of the Indo is purely based on one thing - the bottom line, and they will sink below it as much as possible to make more money.  Their near obituarial thoughts on Ollie Byrne (Shels Owner) when he was openly ill was so at odds with the attacks a while earlier, and their lovely "as reported by another paper" was always to the fore.

The attitude they have taken is getting worse by the week, their Uk counterparts are tame by comparison.


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## ClubMan (12 Mar 2007)

ubiquitous said:


> Can anyone explain why the story of the death of the mother and child was carried so prominently on all broadcast media last Friday? There are a handful of maternal deaths each year (including that of a close friend of my own some years ago) and I can never remember any similar case being given the coverage that this case received.


Maybe because this one involved a maternity hospital with a bit of a chequered past in relation to patient care?


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## ClubMan (12 Mar 2007)

almo said:


> ajapale, I had to be a little more careful than I was earlier as I figure my post this morning was a little on the libellous (or misguided side) and was rightly removed from the thread - which is fair enough.


Your post was removed because it reproduced copyright material in breach of the posting guidelines:


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## Z100 (12 Mar 2007)

ubiquitous said:


> Can anyone explain why the story of the death of the mother and child was carried so prominently on all broadcast media last Friday? There are a handful of maternal deaths each year (including that of a close friend of my own some years ago) and I can never remember any similar case being given the coverage that this case received.



In fairness deaths as a result of childbirth in Ireland are quite rare, just looked it up and there were 16 between 1997 and 2004, none at all in 2003.

But you're right, I don't remember those cases getting anything like the attention this one did. I'm guessing the fact that there were twins involved made it more of a story, and also the fact that the hospital in question has been at the centre of controversy in recent years (ie former home of that Neary man).


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## almo (12 Mar 2007)

Fair enough, mea culpa, and it's even worse to post an article that should never have been written!


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## CCOVICH (12 Mar 2007)

franmac said:


> There are certainly questions to be answered regarding this accident. The police station in Lucan is not far from where the accident happened so why was the driver of the car taken to a station elsewhere to be breathalised?
> 
> There is some thing wrong there.



Well I have heard it explained several times-the nearest station with breath testing equipment was the one where the Guard in quesiton was stationed-so it was not appropriate to bring him to that station.

Fair enough I would have thought-it would certainly appear inappropriate if he was beathalysed at his own station.


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## Glenbhoy (12 Mar 2007)

ubiquitous said:


> Can anyone explain why the story of the death of the mother and child was carried so prominently on all broadcast media last Friday? There are a handful of maternal deaths each year (including that of a close friend of my own some years ago) and I can never remember any similar case being given the coverage that this case received.


One would hardly be so cynical as to say that they were setting the story up for the Sindo exclusive??


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## Z100 (12 Mar 2007)

Garda Commissioner Noel Conroy issued a statement expressing his "absolute abhorrence at the manner in which this human tragedy was reported by some media outlets".

Pity he didn't release the same statement following the reporting on Derek O'Toole's death.


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## Sunny (13 Mar 2007)

I thought the Evening Heralds headline of "pregnant cop drops dead" couldn't be beaten until I saw the Sindo. Who do they pay to come up with these headlines. Its gutter press of the highest order. These guys preach about politicians and their behaviour but at least the politicians are answerable. Who do these scumbags with typewriters answer to?


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## almo (13 Mar 2007)

A Lord and a certain Mr. Fanning


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## Joe1234 (13 Mar 2007)

Bushfire said:


> Garda Commissioner Noel Conroy issued a statement expressing his "absolute abhorrence at the manner in which this human tragedy was reported by some media outlets".



In today's Indo, Noel Conroys statement is printed right next to an atricle, naming the deceased woman, Sgt. Corcoran.  As this tragic incident was nothing to do with her profession, so she should have been referred to in the article as Ms. Corcoran or Mrs McCabe depending on the title that she used in her everyday life.


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## RainyDay (13 Mar 2007)

Sunny said:


> I thought the Evening Heralds headline of "pregnant cop drops dead" couldn't be beaten until I saw the Sindo. Who do they pay to come up with these headlines. Its gutter press of the highest order. These guys preach about politicians and their behaviour but at least the politicians are answerable. Who do these scumbags with typewriters answer to?


They are answerable to their customers. If we stop buying the paper, they'll stop writing this stuff.


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## Glenbhoy (13 Mar 2007)

RainyDay said:


> They are answerable to their customers. If we stop buying the paper, they'll stop writing this stuff.


Agree, I stopped giving them money years ago - is it okay to check out the online version though (well, I need something to rant about )


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## RainyDay (13 Mar 2007)

Glenbhoy said:


> Agree, I stopped giving them money years ago - is it okay to check out the online version though (well, I need something to rant about )


I guess that depends whether they earning online advertising income for each viewing, or each click?


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## Sunny (14 Mar 2007)

RainyDay said:


> They are answerable to their customers. If we stop buying the paper, they'll stop writing this stuff.


 
In an ideal world yes but I think we all know that sales will hardly be affected by it despite the critisim. I would rather see the editor face sanction for letting it go to press. Lets be honest and say he should have been sacked after the Liam Lawlor incident. Going back in time didn't Paul Kimmage resign from the SINDO due to the headline that the paper used for an interview he did with Roy Keane. They took a quote from Keane about his wife out of context and plastered it on the front page. Seems like they never learn.


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## Z100 (14 Mar 2007)

Sunny said:


> Going back in time didn't Paul Kimmage resign from the SINDO due to the headline that the paper used for an interview he did with Roy Keane. They took a quote from Keane about his wife out of context and plastered it on the front page. Seems like they never learn.



Gawd, I'd completely forgotten that. Yet another of the Sindo's finest moments. Just looked it up, this was the relevant extract from the interview:

*Kimmage*: That same photograph was the first time I noticed your tattoos?

*Keane*: Yeah, very painful.

*Kimmage*: What are they?

*Keane*: I've got my kids on my right arm: Shannon, Caragh, Aidan and Leah. And on the left (arm) it's just a standard cross. The wife did ask me why didn't I get hers (name put on) and I said 'they'll always be my kids but you won't necessarily always be my wife,' which she wasn't too pleased about. (laughs)

The Sindo ran this across the top of the front page: "They’ll always be my children but she mightn’t always be my wife", feeding in to the rumours that Keane was having marital problems at the time. 

Kimmage resigned and the Sindo published an the next week: "ON the front page of last week's Sunday Independent, we published a quotation from an interview given by Roy Keane to our writer Paul Kimmage. The use of this quotation, isolated from the context of the interview, was a serious misjudgement and we sincerely apologise to Roy Keane and his family. We also apologise to Paul Kimmage whose work we misrepresented."

What a paper. And still its circulation rises.


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## RainyDay (14 Mar 2007)

Sunny said:


> In an ideal world yes but I think we all know that sales will hardly be affected by it despite the critisim.


One step at a time - It might seem like a small step, but it is actually a huge step for each individual. Just stop buying anything from the Indo, and they will get the message.


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## Purple (15 Mar 2007)

RainyDay said:


> One step at a time - It might seem like a small step, but it is actually a huge step for each individual. Just stop buying anything from the Indo, and they will get the message.



The problem with that is that all we will have left to read is the Irish Times or an English paper (unless you can get your hands on the New York Times). The IT is by and large a good paper but it has a strong liberal leftwing bias in the majority of it's content. It is also strongly anti Fianna Fail and pro Labour. The fact that it caters to many of my biases (I am not pro Labour or left wing) makes it no less biased and if I don't read the other side I cannot get a balanced view.


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## RainyDay (15 Mar 2007)

I'd have thought the IT was more liberal than left these days. Certainly, anything penned by the Continuity Wing of the PD press office (aka Modom Kennedy and ) could not be described as left leaning by any stretch of the imagination. Fintan O'Toole and some of the columnists are definitely left-leaning, but these are balanced out by Waters, Breda O'Brien, Mark Stien (sp?) and others.

There is always De Paper for an alternative and less-Dub-centric view of our little isle.


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## Z100 (16 Mar 2007)

RainyDay said:


> I'd have thought the IT was more liberal than left these days. Certainly, anything penned by the Continuity Wing of the PD press office (aka Modom Kennedy and Stephen Collins) could not be described as left leaning by any stretch of the imagination. Fintan O'Toole and some of the columnists are definitely left-leaning, but these are balanced out by Waters, Breda O'Brien, Mark Stien (sp?) and others.
> 
> There is always De Paper for an alternative and less-Dub-centric view of our little isle.



Modom Kennedy pro-PD? Methinks not! Ask McDowell and Harney. Bad blood in floods. She might once have sailed in that ship, but seems to me like she deserted it a long time ago.

No arguments about Stephen Collins. We got a PD newspaper type thing in the door the other day and top right on the front page was an _ad _for Collins' book....which kind of suggests it's not too critical of the party  

I just think the Times is in desperate need of more balance, and I say that as an old time liberal leftie. Waters and O'Brien are just comic book right wingers, painfully predictable, as Myers was, I just wish they'd bring in a couple of right wing heavyweights with a bit of depth, although I can't actually think of any. Maybe there's no such thing  

Agree about the Examiner, it's a bit hit and miss, but on the whole I'd rate it as our most balanced national newspaper, it's a shame it still can't throw off its provincial image.


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## Purple (16 Mar 2007)

RainyDay said:


> I'd have thought the IT was more liberal than left these days. Certainly, anything penned by the Continuity Wing of the PD press office (aka Modom Kennedy and ) could not be described as left leaning by any stretch of the imagination. Fintan O'Toole and some of the columnists are definitely left-leaning, but these are balanced out by Waters, Breda O'Brien, Mark Stien (sp?) and others.
> 
> There is always De Paper for an alternative and less-Dub-centric view of our little isle.


I agree that it is less left wing than it used to be but then again I was called an f-ing socialist by a friend or  friend in the pub last night so maybe they are the same and I am more left wing than I used to be!? Fintan O’Toole is a bit more than left leaning. That’s like saying that Thatcher was right leaning. The PD’s are a strange mix of liberal social policy (for the most part) and right of centre economic policy. None of our parties are as right wing as either of the American parties. 



Bushfire said:


> I just think the Times is in desperate need of more balance, and I say that as an old time liberal leftie. Waters and O'Brien are just comic book right wingers, painfully predictable, as Myers was, I just wish they'd bring in a couple of right wing heavyweights with a bit of depth, although I can't actually think of any. Maybe there's no such thing


 Agree on Waters and O’Brien. If they were more balanced their editorials would carry more weight.



Bushfire said:


> Agree about the Examiner, it's a bit hit and miss, but on the whole I'd rate it as our most balanced national newspaper, it's a shame it still can't throw off its provincial image.


 I also agree but I think it’s provincial image is still there for a reason.


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