# Family member after losing pension - please help



## irishstig (28 Jun 2014)

Hi All,

I'll try to cut a long story as short as possible and would be very appreciative of constructive advice and pointers.

My mother, really and truly through no fault of her own lost her pension entitlements. She was last means tested in 2009 and had being receiving her pension since. 

In the meantime my father who has a considerable amount of money saved got my mother to sign bank account applications to apply for joint accounts. This was on the back of advice from bank personnel who informed him that as my mother is disabled that if her name was on the accounts that he would not have to pay D.I.R.T tax. My mother did not think too much of this and just signed the applications. She also thought it would be a wise move in the event that he pre-deceased her. 

Trouble is that social welfare recently cross referenced her PPS number on these bank accounts in which there is a considerable sum saved (between €250k and €300k) and asked her to submit the bank account statements for a review. With some considerable effort she acquired them from the banks and supplied them to social welfare and fully co-operated.

Within the last few days she received word that she lost of her pension payments (disability allowance) and associated benefits such as fuel allowance etc. Effectively she has no income anymore. Furthermore this is just an interim decision. Social welfare it seems from the letter may seek repayment of pension monies paid to her since 2009 from what I gather in reading the letter.

This brings me onto my father. Being honest I have not spoken to the man in a number of years. He has being a very very tight and uncooperative man down through the years and has gotten worse and worse as the years progressed. My mother is disabled from an illness that progressively worsened as the years passed. Before that she was a housewife who reared me and my siblings. My father has always very much held the purse strings and chucked money into the bank while the house around him and himself for that matter has gone to rack and ruin. The type of guy who wouldn't in a month of Sunday even buy himself a new pair of shoes or underpants....a sorry situation really. Gets very arrogant and argumentative whenever we pleaded with him to spend some money on the house. Anyway wont dwell any further as its probably not too constructive to the thread.

Ironically and don't have a clue how but his pension is not means tested. Apart from working in England in his younger years I don't believe he ever worked officially in this country apart from some casual work from time to time with local farmers where he was not "on the books". He has being carer for my mother for the past 15-20 years so can only guess that may be the reason why. He also got word that he lost €20 per week off his pension but I believe that may be as a result of being a carer for my mother.

Which all leads me to the question. Short of divorcing my father and not pursuing him for half the money (which she does not want to do) is there anyway possible that my mother may be able to appeal this decision favourably? 

Maybe I'm taking a very simplistic view of this but if the money was withdrawn from the banks and she were to say it was make a declaration it were spent and reapply after a number of months or a year would she be granted the pension again? After all very few pubs give receipts etc....so whos to say how the money was spent, whos to know how much was spent on the house etc etc. My father has agreed to this and said he would spend some of it on the house but unlikely to happen. More than likely it would end up being mattress money. All very very risky business as the house isin't even insured and cant see him insuring it either. My own means are quite limited to allow for this expense also. Either way I'm not too bothered about that money. It was saved at a great expense down through the years and cant see any good ever coming from it at this stage.

What I am bothered about more than anything is my mothers pension and seeking advice on how she possibly may be able to qualify for it again.

Sorry my post it long and drawn out and more than likely not that well drafted but would really appreciate any useful advice or pointers, thanks.

ps. If any clarification is sought on anything I overlooked to mention I will happily provide to the best of my ability


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## irishstig (28 Jun 2014)

Hi cashier, thanks for your reply, appreciated.

My mother did not declare this money back in 2009 when making her application as she did not view the money as being hers even though arguably at least half it is whether looking at the situation through the eyes of the law or otherwise. Not entirely sure if her name was put on them accounts since 2009, would have to run that one by her. Either way I'm guessing technology has moved on in Department of Social Welfare/ Revenue etc... these things can most likely be flagged pretty quickly now.

As you mention I did run it by my mother about divorcing him but don't think she was going for that one at this stage (she is 70 and her health is quite poor). Even though it would possibly be the best idea from a financial point of view, my father is acting as carer for her, she would not be able to fend for herself if living alone. My brother is in England, I could possibly be able to move home but the commute would be horrendous and at best I would only be at home for a couple of hours every evening aside from sleeping. Same goes for my sister.

I believe she would have divorced him before now but for the sake of the family when me and my siblings were younger. Its all a very sorrowful situation really. I don't blame it on bank personnel either, was just highlighting how the situation unfolded that resulted in my mothers name being on the bank accounts.

I know its a bad trait but I do feel a high level of bitterness towards my father. His actions has very much acted in a manner which had being counter productive down through the years. To highlight how bad he is he has being driving around for years without a driving license, not even a provisional.  He could have got himself one of them cowboy licenses back in the day but that involved spending money. When we were younger he eventually promised to release some money to my mother for housekeeping. She was saving it up for wallpaper, footwear for us school books etc. When it came to going to my mothers home place on holiday (she from the other side of the country 300 odd miles away) she had to hand over what was saved to him to insure the car as despite it being on the road there wasn't a scrap of insurance on it.....thats the kind of person were dealing with here.

Anyway rant over. I know too thats not very productive to the thread


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## gipimann (28 Jun 2014)

To answer the question you posed regarding withdrawing the funds and re-applying for pension, the onus is on the person applying to show how the money has been spent.  The money can continue to be assessed in full as means if the Department is not satisfied.


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## MacMun (28 Jun 2014)

If it is a joint account, surely she can withdraw funds for her needs?? Does she have a card to withdraw?


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## mandelbrot (28 Jun 2014)

If the money is in a joint account, can she not just set up her own personal account and withdraw her half of the funds from the joint account(s) and lodge it for her own use. 

Short of divorcing your father and waiving her share of monies / assets, she can't qualify fully for a means tested payment anyway, so she should do what she can to establish some financial security for herself.


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## Kimmagegirl (28 Jun 2014)

irishstig said:


> . This was on the back of advice from bank personnel who informed him that as my mother is disabled that if her name was on the accounts that he would not have to pay D.I.R.T tax.



Do disabled people not have to pay DIRT tax?

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/leaflets/it12.html


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## wbbs (28 Jun 2014)

DIRT tax exemption for certain categories

[broken link removed]


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## ladybird (29 Jun 2014)

Sorry OP, but there are a few things i don't understand...

AFAIK Disability Allowance is stopped at pension age and you get a pension payment - usually non-contrib OAP (as a person on DA usually has no stamps - or not enough). As your mother is 70, she either gets a pension or is a dependent on someone else's pension - if your dad is getting a state pension?

Also, if the dad is on a pension (whether contrib or non-contrib?) and he had €20 deducted because of means (the money in the bank)

1)HE should still be receiving a payment for your mother - as a dependent? OR he should now apply for her as a dependent. 
(If it is a private pension and he gives your mother no money then that is unfortunately just a family problem.)


2)If he never had a proper job or got the stamps and is on a non-contrib pension himself, there is going to be an investigation  at some point into where the money came from.
The Means inspectors ask where the money comes from and require proof of it. SO, if there was no investigation, it probably means your dad is on a contrib OAP.

Could you explain?

Also, i wonder if she was still receiving DA as an oversight as i notice that they want money back from 2009 which would suggest that she turned 66, pension age, in  2009, and your father should have been paid for her as a dependent from them on.

If he didn't, they are entitled to claim that payment since 2009 now after paying back the DA but whether he gives her any money every week is again, unfortunately a matter you will have to sort in the family (she could always separate and never divorce but put the fear of god into your dad that she can walk with €150,000 at any time...)


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## Black Sheep (29 Jun 2014)

To summarize:-
Father is on Carer's Allowance and mother has no payment having lost pension due to non-declaration of Savings. Is this the situation?

Both of these payments are means tested so there may be some outstanding issues with both payments.

As there is a lot of savings (sitting there and being of no benefit to anyone at present) would it not be a good idea to pay off any arrears due and move on with a clean slate. The remainder of the savings could be used as living expenses until it comes down to a level where part pension and part Carers would be payable.

While this may sound harsh it would bring peace of mind to mother.
SW will get their money one way or another. If not paid it will be taken from their estate eventually.


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## ladybird (30 Jun 2014)

I forgot about the carer's payment. 

It would seem that the dad is getting a payment of a half rate on this (as it is paid to people over 66) along with his pension.

It seems odd as they stop Disability Allowance at 66. So, there is no need to prove the illness anymore at 66 but someone can still claim you need care.

Or am i taking that up incorrectly?


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## Black Sheep (30 Jun 2014)

Disability allowance is a means tested payment paid to people up to age 66 who are unable to work due to a medical condition/illness. Over the age of 66 that person should be entitled to a State pension (Contributory if they have sufficient PRSI payments and credits or Non Contributory which is means tested).

As the OP has means/savings (undeclared) above the max allowed the pension has been disallowed


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## irishstig (31 Aug 2014)

ladybird said:


> Sorry OP, but there are a few things i don't understand...




Sorry for late reply ladybird & thanks for  your response. To be honest life has not being too good of late. Having  my own work problems too into the bargain. Last few months have being  very testing, its almost like a spell has being cast upon this family.  Anyway to answer your questions as  best I can:




ladybird said:


> AFAIK Disability Allowance is stopped at pension age and you get a  pension payment - usually non-contrib OAP (as a person on DA usually has  no stamps - or not enough). As your mother is 70, she either gets a  pension or is a dependent on someone else's pension - if your dad is  getting a state pension?



To my knowledge my mother is or  at least was getting a means tested State non contributory  pension (she stopped receiving payments since July month end past). Up  until before the age of 70 (66 if I recall correctly) she was on  disability allowance - DMA she used to call it if I recall correctly.  The social welfare representative who initially called to the house day  one said my father was on a contributory state pension - but this is  simply what was said in the house by him. Dont know how decisive that  actually is. Either way my father is not being pursued at the moment  anyway. It is odd the way he lost €20 per week as such...I just cannot  explain that one.




ladybird said:


> Also, if the dad is on a pension (whether contrib or non-contrib?) and  he had €20 deducted because of means (the money in the bank)
> 
> 1)HE should still be receiving a payment for your mother - as a dependent? OR he should now apply for her as a dependent.
> (If it is a private pension and he gives your mother no money then that is unfortunately just a family problem.)
> ...



It has being mentioned that my father  is on a State non means tested pension by the social welfare rep that  initially called to the house as I mentioned earlier in the post  Ladybird. To my knowledge any money he is receiving for my mother is  because he is carer for her. Would be incorrect to say its as she is a  dependant I'm guessing? This money he is receiving for her is for  looking after her and is techically his money to do as he pleases with.  I'm guessing if he was receiving the money because she was a dependant  on him then technically he should be feeding her and providing for her  out of this money. I'm not sure I fully understand your question to be  honest or if I'm answering it correctly but my understanding is that if  my mother were to die in the morning, God forebid, then he would  continue to receive a non means tested State pension, its just he would  loose whatever few quid he was earning for  being carer for  her....or maybe thats why he already lost the €20 per week?... Perhaps  its now being determined that my mother has the means to pay him for  acting as carer for her?

Dont know really if I'm honest and am  just thinking out loud. As I say it was mentioned that he is on a  contributory state pension - non means tested and he is not being  investigated or at least not to our knowledge...We don't want to ask  Social Welfare any questions that may draw the spotlight on him as  family is down enough money as it is besides loosing anymore. Sorry I  just cannot provide any further insight into how he is on a contributory  pension as we are baffled ourselves.



ladybird said:


> Also, i wonder if she was still receiving DA as  an oversight as i notice that they want money back from 2009 which would  suggest that she turned 66, pension age, in  2009, and your father  should have been paid for her as a dependent from them on.
> 
> If he didn't, they are entitled to claim that payment since 2009 now  after paying back the DA but whether he gives her any money every week  is again, unfortunately a matter you will have to sort in the family  (she could always separate and never divorce but put the fear of god  into your dad that she can walk with €150,000 at any time...)



Apologies  if I mentioned that she was receiving DA since 2009 as that is  incorrect, didn't think thats what I said mind. To confirm she was  receiving what I believe was called DMA disability allowance up until  2009, certainly disability allowance of some description, but think she  used to call it DMA as I recall. In 2009 she turned 66 and needed to  apply for the means tested State pension. Thats what the letter I have  here in front of me is claiming to have stopped- her state pension non  contrib which she was receiving since being means tested for it back in  2009. Do you reckon my father should now be receiving some sort of  additional payment for my mother as she is a dependant on him?...I'm a  little confused really if I'm honest.

My mother is of a  traditional mindset...she would not really want to divorce or  separate....that would be a last and extreme resolution in her book.  Plus he is making dinners, dressing the bed for her, washing her clothes  etc. She simply would not be able to do these things herself. If she  were to get rehoused she would need a carer in and pay for that. Other  than that nursing home which is €800 odd a week I do believe or so I was  told recently....what happens after 4 years when the €150k has ran out I  wonder? Wouldn't want to see that happen to her ideally anyways  although sometimes I would possibly think that would be a better  solution as she has no life as it stands in that house...its cold and  miserable and very ran down....whatever money my father saved over the  years was saved at a hugh cost in many ways....unthinkable really...I  hate him for that


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## irishstig (31 Aug 2014)

Just to provide an update also within the last few days my mother has  received an assessment for an amount just shy of €60,000 against her for  the payments and any benefits received by her since 2009. This news has  being highly upsetting for her, she is  beside herself with worry that  she is going to go to prision and all sorts of negative thoughts. She  certainly wont have the means to make much of a dent in this amount out  of her own personal savings and what little savings she has was  earmarked for essential repairs -much needed new floors, facia &  soffit boards, central heating for the house etc. etc. 

She has  hardly got up out of bed over the last few days, only to go to toilet  and watch winning streak. Really worried about her and fearful its the  final nail in her coffin as her mental health was not too good to start  with.

The letter mentions that her file has being forwarded to  their Debt Management section for their consideration and a Recovery  Officer will be in further contact with her in relation to the  collection of the over-payment.

It also mentions that if she is  not happy with this decision she may make an appeal against it by  writing to the social welfare chief appeals officer, within 21 days  stating clearly the grounds of her appeal.

we have all wrote  letters outlining why my mother is appealing the decision in her support  alluding to the appalling state of the house, her poor physical and  mental health. not sure if this will  be of any real use though.

Could anyone please advise how we could expect this to progress from here please. 

Many thanks in advance for any assistance


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## wbbs (31 Aug 2014)

Have you tried a Citizens Information office for some help with this?  Some of them have excellent staff who can help you put together an appeal or even work through the case so far and help explain exactly what has gone wrong.


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## ladybird (1 Sep 2014)

Hi Irish stig, things sound unbearable atm for you. 

If i took up anything wrong in the OP, my apologies.

I do still think that her non-contrib pension was withdrawn as your fathers assets and income weren't known/assessed properly. Not her fault probably as your father is secretive with money.

I definitely know that he can claim for a dependent (ie your mother) and so if any arrears are owed you need to clarify that he has been doing this all along OR he should do it now as her pension has been withdrawn. 

Whether he gives her this money is again, unfortunately, a matter for the couple themselves, - the state doesn't really have a say.

I would advise the Citizens Information as Wbbs said but i would also go to your mother's gp and explain everything and ask for a social worker to be appointed to your mother and she will act for your mother.

AFAIK, with nursing homes fees, the way you have written it down is not the way it works. Look up the fair deal scheme. Also, the social worker can sort this. Keep on at the dr and social worker. The SW is overworked and underpaid, usually, and is told to keep people at home (as it's cheaper on the state) so you need to attack all this like a militiary campaign. 

The debts? Someone else will know but i'd be inclined to try ringing and getting a settlement figure of €20 a week, for example. It will be taken off your father's money if your mother is not entitled to anything. And if it doesn't work out, let it go to court and present the details to the court. They aren't monsters. 

Best of luck with everything. I don't think i can help with anything else.

Your mother is lucky to have you.


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## ladybird (1 Sep 2014)

PS forgot to say - your dad seems to have lost €20 a week and he's not means tested so there is only one reason i can see for that - he has been claiming correctly for your mother as a dependent all along but the amount is means tested for her. 

So say he gets 130 a week for her (don't know the figures) - now she has been assessed correctly with the bank savings taken into account and so now he only gets 110 for her. It's the only solution. 

The payment you mother was on - you'll have to clarify  for yourself if it was the old disability type payment that the Health Boards used to run before it was incorporated into the Social Welfare in, i think, the early 1990s OR if it was a Domicillary Care Allowance (DCA) from the Social Welfare - which is slightly different again. 

And it must have been your dad applying for all these as your mum doesn't seem able  -  so if that is the case - it's your dad that the Social Welfare should be going after. 

Also, just dawned on me - with your dad's large savings, they will expect him to pay the arrears. They're a couple. He may have shot himself in the foot. 

Ladybird


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## partnership (1 Sep 2014)

Please stop worrying and get some advice, start with citizen's information.  Secondly the money is in a joint account so she has access to it.  She should start withdrawing the equivalent amount of what she was getting in pension for herself.  Appeal the decision and take it as far as you can.  If worse comes to worse she uses the money in the joint account to pay it and when that runs out she applies again.


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