# Civil service - pros and cons



## dubinamerica (11 Jul 2006)

Need some info about the ins and outs of working for the Civil Service and I'm trying to think of pros / cons .. Can anyone add to these and comment on what I have below ? I am being called for i/view for a position in Castlebar in the Dept of Justice. I'm definitely overqualified but thought that it may be a good way to get into the Civil Service.

Any additional thoughts most welcome !!  

Pros:
Possible work sharing options 
Flexibility with time off (up to five years I think) 
Job for life  - does that still hold? 
Pension 
Health Insurance 

Cons
Clerical officer pay is extremely low . 
For the particular job in question it's shift hours.


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## Cyrstal (11 Jul 2006)

To add to this:

Pros:
Possible work sharing options 
Flexibility with time off (up to five years I think) 
Job for life - does that still hold? 
Pension 
Health Insurance 
*Number of holidays are great - especially as you move up Grades.*
*Family Friendly - Term Time is an option(for the Health Sector anway) 10 or 14 weeks off in the Summer if you have kids*


Cons
Clerical officer pay is extremely low . 
For the particular job in question it's shift hours.


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## ajapale (11 Jul 2006)

Before this thread develops can I ask posters to stick to the topic?


> *Civil service - pros and cons *


OT posts will be deleted. Please post generalised rants in LOS.

Thanks
aj


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## ajapale (11 Jul 2006)

DIA,

Health Insurance? I dont think the Civil Service provide health insurance.

aj


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## nelly (11 Jul 2006)

if you find you are overqualified - you might find the job really boring - and this can cause stress levels ot increase. 

You might become cheesed off due to the wages being so low as although i would like, in theory, a state job i would find it hard to get by without the wealth i am used to.
Is there any option for overtime - maybe this could bring the allowance up?

The job "might" move and as far as i know you could be reassigned to another area.
Is there any option for overtime - maybe this could bring the allowance up?


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## dubinamerica (11 Jul 2006)

Hi - not sure about the availability of overtime but to be honest it's not soemthing I would want to really have to do. The job I'm about to interview for is based in Castlebar so I think it's v. unlikely that it's going to move.
I've heard it's possible to get time off from the civil service - anyone know if you have to be employed a certain amount of time to get this ? Same question for flexi-time or job sharing ?
I've also seen on line some jobs restricted to people serving in the public sector - does this happen much ?  Any info would be appreciated and thanks for the help so far!


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## ajapale (11 Jul 2006)

Hi Dia,

When you say 'Public Sector' do you mean the *Civil Service*, the *Public Service* (the Civil Service plus Local Authorities, Guards, Health Executive, Non Commercial semi state Agencies such as Fas, Bord na Gon etc) or the entire *Public Sector* (the Public Service plus the commercial semi state companies such as ESB, Bord Gas etc)?



> For the particular job in question it's shift hours.



What type of shift rota will you be expected to work. Will you get a shift premium? Will your superannuation (pension) be based on your basic rate or on some uplifted rate which takes shift working into account.

aj


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## aonfocaleile (11 Jul 2006)

If its shift work then I don't see how flexi time would apply. Also, the civil service *does not* provide health insurance but some departments run a group scheme with VHI and/or BUPA which means you can get a 10% reduction. (This option is open to all organisations over a certain size e.g. 10+ employees)

It is unlikely (but not impossible) that your job would move in the future, given that its in an already-decentralised location.

As regards career breaks, you need 2 years service before you can apply and you can only take the equivalent of your service i.e. you need 5 years service to take a 5 year career break.

Edited to advise that Job for life does not still hold for new civil service recruits. Its much easier to get rid of staff now than it was in the past.


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## dubinamerica (11 Jul 2006)

it's for the dept of justice in castlebar . There is additional pay for working shift but this bit is not pensionable. even with the additional money salary is still v. low.   Wow - 10% discount on medical insurance - surely they can do better than that !  
That's interesting about the 2 year thing . Does anyone know if that also applies to request for flexi time (say working term time only).


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## Mary_K (11 Jul 2006)

dubinamerica said:
			
		

> additional pay for working shift but this bit is not pensionable


 I wouldn't worry too much about that. If you become a life-time civil servant, your final pension will be 40/80ths of your final salary inclusive of the state pension (with 1/80th for every year worked).


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## funky girl (11 Jul 2006)

How do you mean over qualified? You may be surprised at the level of education now expected, for example i know alot of clerical officers in the local authorities with Honours Degrees. 
At clerical level the work can get mundane, which is a killer motivationally. Also there are slight differences between the civil and public sector. For example in some areas of the civil service you can earn a day and a half flexi time a month if you work full time, whereas in the local authorities that is only one day a month because you get more annual leave. Also, new people into the service now have to work till 65yrs. Also, it can take years to get promoted as it goes a lot on length of service and experience in different areas, if you can go where the promotions are you ve better chance of climbing the ladder but this is nt always ideal! Its also worth stating that term time, shorter working weeks mean less pay and affect your overall pension....

Also the number of applicants can be very high these days, so do plenty of preparation in advance and good luck!!


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## porterbray (11 Jul 2006)

Not too sure how the flexi time works with regards to shift work, but you can go on flexi time immediately. To get term time/work sharing you must become an established civil servant, which I think is 2 years satisfactory service (certainly used to be, though it may have been changed to one year more recently). With the medical insurance, this is a group scheme and civil and public service bodies are treated no different from any other group scheme, hence the 10% discount


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## ajapale (12 Jul 2006)

> _additional pay for working shift but this bit is not pensionable_
> 
> I wouldn't worry too much about that. If you become a life-time civil servant, your final pension will be 40/80ths of your final salary inclusive of the state pension (with 1/80th for every year worked).


I disagree, It is worth considering the pension implications of a move to the CS in full. Especially if you are on low earnings with potentially high shift payments or overtime payments which are not reckonable for superannuation). Also you will need to work for the full 40 years in order to get the full benefit. Thirdly the civil service superannuation is coordinated with social welfare. (Effictively this means that the Contributory Old Age Pension is subtracted from your pension).

In summary, if you retire on relatively low superannuationable salary and are shy of the full 40 years you could be left with a very small pension indeed when the COAP is subtracted.

On the positive side CS pensions are indexed against the current rate for the job and opposed to CPI or just discretionary increases from time to time as is the situation in the Private Sector or some semi state bodies.

aj


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## moneygrower (12 Jul 2006)

Are you sure you want to take a job where your main concern is taking unpaid time off? As far as I know the time off can't be spent working, it needs to be for college or something.

It boils down how you like to work in my opinion.

If you are used to working in a field where your hard work is appreciated and rewarded you will be unhappy.
If you like to see things get done and get done quickly you will be unhappy.
If you are used to working with a team of people whose job is on the line if they don't pull their weight you will be unhappy.

If on the hand, you don't want to work too hard, want to do things at a very leisurely pace, if your happy to get promoted on your ability to talk bull at an interview, get lots of holidays, work with largely decent people, know that your job is always there, get a pension, no penalties for having babies, the option to jobshare, go for it. At least the crap salary will go a bit further in castlebar. Bare in mind, lots of holidays aren't so great when you've no money to go anywhere.


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## dubinamerica (12 Jul 2006)

Thanks for all the information on this - the whole area of pensions does not appear to be a great selling point whatsoever.At the moment (as I have a 2 month old) flexibility is important to me . I have worked in the IT sector  that I have enjoyed for over 10 yrs (where a 9-5 job can mean quite a bit more hours and pressure and on the plus interesting work) . I have been interested in moving to the public sector and this is a chance (if I get offered the position) but it is far from ideal and quite a drop in money from what i'd expect to get in the IT sector, but if I can arrange flexible hours it could suit for a while and then I can figure out if it's going anywhere and if there's a chance for this to lead into a better position - I suppose I won't know til I try . Anyhow - have the i/view next week so let's see how that goes first. I appreciate all the info regards pension and other areas on this and I am definitely taking the i/view seriously. Spent a couple of days preparing and tweaking the answers to the standard form.


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## Purple (12 Jul 2006)

I heard an economist on the radio (can't remember which one) say that a 30-40% difference in pay was about right for like for like jobs in the private and public sector. He said this was due to issues such as job security, pensions and conditions. Personally it seems a bit much to expect anyone to take a 30% or 40% pay cut for doing the same job in the public sector, and I'm a card-carrying public sector basher.  
You could take the number of applicants going for jobs in the public sector at the moment as an indication that it is, on balance, a good place to work. 
I think moneygrower's post is good advice, a bit black and white but in general terms about right.


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## dubinamerica (12 Jul 2006)

The salary is definitely significantly lower than what I would expect to earn in the private sector . I am concerned that a clerical officer job is really aimed more at someone coming straight out of school or someone who is trying to get back into the work force after an extended break. I know it was mentioned in one of the earlier posts that a lot of people now have honors degrees but it seems overkill for the type of job but I am thinking that would be just a step in the door.  The flexibility definitely appeals to me although that would probably still be available in the IT area anyhow but IT is definitely not such a big sector in mayo from what I can find. At the moment because of personal considerations I thought that it would be a good idea to apply and see what happens.  I read in the paper that there was over 2000 applications for 45 positions in Castlebar so there must be something in it alright .  I'll see what happens anyhow next week and if I get offered something see when they are looking for people to start and so on. The first month is training so that would give some indication anyhow as to how things operate.


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## Icon (31 Jul 2006)

I had an interview last week and heard that some received notification on Friday last - just wondering if you have heard anything back?


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## Micky (31 Jul 2006)

My Missus is with the Health Board, I'm a Solicitor. She's at the Galway Races, i'm stuck at work....nuff said!


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## Snork Maiden (31 Jul 2006)

On another note, there can be a huge cultural change between the Private sector and the public sector.  Particularly if you are used to working in a fast moving high tech industry. From my experience,  often there is a lot of red-tape arbituary budgets and wastage both time and monatory. It takes a long time to initiate change and the current buzz term Value for Money (VFM) often leads to decisions that are good on paper but hard to put into practise.  I know I was left feeling very frustrated after my short exposure to the Public sector.  I found it hard to settle into public sector working and after two years moved back into the private sector and so far enjoying it.  Gave up some great benefits e.g. 'Permanent' position, 35hr week, flexi time, 30 days hols etc etc. but wouldnt look back.  If it suits your personal circumstances go for it, it can be very family orientated.


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## RainyDay (31 Jul 2006)

Snork Maiden said:
			
		

> On another note, there can be a huge cultural change between the Private sector and the public sector.  Particularly if you are used to working in a fast moving high tech industry. From my experience,  often there is a lot of red-tape arbituary budgets and wastage both time and monatory. It takes a long time to initiate change and the current buzz term Value for Money (VFM) often leads to decisions that are good on paper but hard to put into practise.  I know I was left feeling very frustrated after my short exposure to the Public sector.


This doesn't reflect my experience having moved from a high-tech multinational to a small state agency last year. Yes, there is bureacracy in the public sector, but it genuinely doesn't seem to be any worse that what I experienced in the multi-national environment. Approval cycles from senior management can be extended, but that happened in the multi-national world too.


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## Purple (2 Aug 2006)

RainyDay said:
			
		

> This doesn't reflect my experience having moved from a high-tech multinational to a small state agency last year. Yes, there is bureacracy in the public sector, but it genuinely doesn't seem to be any worse that what I experienced in the multi-national environment. Approval cycles from senior management can be extended, but that happened in the multi-national world too.


 Do you think it would be different if you had moved from a small private company to a large state agency?


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## Cyrstal (2 Aug 2006)

I moved from the private sector to the public sector and am on the same money I was on in the private sector as I am here!!  Except I get 10 more holidays and flexi time.  I also have 3 hours less working hours a week.
With regards to money, It depends what grade you start on - I started on quite a high up grade because of my experience in the Private Sector.

The job is MUCH more interesting than the job I had in the private sector!

They don;t pay Health Insurance - but then a lot of Private companies don't these days either!

In my case - I'm really happy with the move, and would hate the idea of going back to the Private Sector!  However, as some of the other posters have said, some of the roles would not be for me - but I'm working in the area I have a degree in, and the area that I had 7 years experience in the Private Sector.  

Working for the Public Sector will only work if you are working in a job you enjoy and are getting paid fairly for - the same applies to the Private Sector I s'pose!


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## legend99 (2 Aug 2006)

AP level or equivilent so i assume cyrstal as you're hinting at 30 days annual leave? (i.e. assuming 10 extra over the norm of 20 in private sector)


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## Cyrstal (2 Aug 2006)

AP Level?? Don't know what that means.

31 days leave!


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## legend99 (2 Aug 2006)

AP = Assistant Principal level in the general service grades of the civil service.


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## CMCR (2 Aug 2006)

The civil service is worth considering, depending on what you want.  

If you are intending to embark on a career in that job - I would argue you are probably wasting your time entering at that level.  You will be free of course to enter certain inter-departmental competitions and open competitions and depending on how you get on, you may move up the line.  There is fierce competition for positions however, and panels can be very slow to move.  

You should also bear in mind if you do get promoted through an open competition, you may not be guaranteed that you will remain in Castlebar. Given decentralisation, you might be moved to a location you don't particularly want. 

Work at clerical level can be interesting - but it is often a basic administrative role.  Then again, I have come across many staff at that level who work in interesting areas in various teams/divisions where they are fully involved in working on various projects.  It depends on what you are doing and the role/responsibility of that particular division. 

While you may be overqualified for the role you are considering - you will find that many people in the civil service have third level and professional qualifications. 

Working in a family-friendly environment is a positive one, flexi-time is a significant bonus and there is encouragement (financial and time off) granted for certain types of study/training etc. You are also on a transparent pay scale, obtain the benefit of partnership/benchmarking pay increases and will be entitled to paid sick leave from work. 

All in all, it's worth weighing everything up and making a final decision on the basis of what will suit you and make you happy.


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## Magoo (2 Aug 2006)

Cyrstal said:
			
		

> AP Level?? Don't know what that means.
> 
> 31 days leave!


 
So you're not in the CIVIL service.  Big difference.

You don't necessarily get a chance to use your expertise in the CS.


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## RainyDay (3 Aug 2006)

Purple said:
			
		

> Do you think it would be different if you had moved from a small private company to a large state agency?


My experience in smaller private companies is a bit dated. While they did seem less bureaucratic, they had other substantial disadvantages. Quality of management skills was generally low. Job security wasn't great. Benefits such as pension/health insurance were non-existant.


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## Cyrstal (3 Aug 2006)

Magoo said:
			
		

> So you're not in the CIVIL service. Big difference.
> 
> You don't necessarily get a chance to use your expertise in the CS.


 
Ooppps....I'm in the PUBLIC service, I was just pointing out some differences between the PUBLIC(which does include the CIVIL service Magoo) and the Private sectors. I don't think any of my points were invalid! I did say that I enjoyed my job BECAUSE I got the use the experience I had had previously - I didn't say that everyone gets to use their previous experiences.


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## tallpaul (3 Aug 2006)

Magoo said:
			
		

> So you're not in the CIVIL service. Big difference.
> 
> You don't necessarily get a chance to use your expertise in the CS.


 
Care to back that assertion up with some evidence??


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## bleary (7 Aug 2006)

dubinamerica said:
			
		

> .  I read in the paper that there was over 2000 applications for 45 positions in Castlebar so there must be something in it alright .


A lot of companies Volex ,contact partners etc  have closed down in castlebar in the last few years, there really isnt an awful lot of job oppurtunities down there @ the mo and the work that is there is not the most secure ( a lot of contracts etc) also wages are lower there 
People I knew who were working for years were on low low twenties salaries 
I know half of mayo seemed to be applying for the clerical officer jobs because with shift allowance the salary was a big improvement and also no chance of redundancy.
Have you ever worked in a call centre -this sounds a bit like that without the stress ..
You will be taking the details from guards and entering it into the system .
Could you look for an IT job in the civil service because if you dont like this one it can take years for a transfer.


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## dubinamerica (15 Aug 2006)

Back on line after my recent house move and am now all hooked up : ) Anyhow - I have been offered the position in GISC in Castlebar and am still weighing up everything about this . I am very interested in the whole idea of working for the public sector but the one big negative here is the whole shift rota pattern - 40 hours per week , with there being 8 hour shifts , so that seems v. long and could be very exhausting. I would love to know how flexible they are on this so if anyone has any first hand experience of working there please update (or send me a message). I will keep you posted as to what I end up doing and if I go ahead and accept what it is like.


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## thewatcher (15 Aug 2006)

dubinamerica said:


> Back on line after my recent house move and am now all hooked up : ) Anyhow - I have been offered the position in GISC in Castlebar and am still weighing up everything about this . I am very interested in the whole idea of working for the public sector but the one big negative here is the whole shift rota pattern - 40 hours per week , with there being 8 hour shifts , so that seems v. long and could be very exhausting. I would love to know how flexible they are on this so if anyone has any first hand experience of working there please update (or send me a message). I will keep you posted as to what I end up doing and if I go ahead and accept what it is like.


 
If you think your going to find a job with less than 8 hour shifts,then good luck to you bar maybe a part time job and they only pay buttons.
Just remember jobs and especially civil service jobs are not 10 a penny in castlebar and many people will bite your arm off to get that job.
The public service is very flexible once your in it, i know you say your over qualified but a word of warning don't think you'll get any special treatment in respect of starting conditions because of that.
Take the job and see how you like it,you can always leave if you don't like it,jobs like that won't come around too often,most people have to go to dublin for years before they can get home.


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## dubinamerica (15 Aug 2006)

Hey - I actually meant that the 5X8 hours is a a pain - I think I'd prefer a longer stint so as to have the additional time days off to recoup. I hear what you're saying about the flexibility and to take it to try out alright. It's mainly the shift hours prospect that has me concerned as in some cases there's only 8 hours between shifts (so not much time for sleeping or anything else !!)  . I am new to Mayo so don't have experience of job hunting in this area to date. I have read however that there were over 2000 applicants for these positions so there was obviously a lot of interest and that may be an indication of the level of difficulty of getting a job in the area. Thanks for the advice.


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## Magoo (16 Aug 2006)

tallpaul said:


> Care to back that assertion up with some evidence??


 

Just saw this now.

Agencies operating in the wider public service (e.g. semi states) have more freedom and flexibility to recruit directly to positions available. So, for eaxample, if the semi-stae has a vacancy in a Finance or IT Section, it can seek to recruit a person with the required qualifications and/or experience.

The Civil Service, on the other hand, applies more of a "one size fits all" approach to recruitment and placement. If for example you have a degree in law, you may find that on the day you turn up to start as say an Executive Officer, the vacancy is in the HR section and this is where you will be assigned. You will of course, be given every opportunity to acquire the skills necessary to perform your new role effectively, but if it was your belief that the CS would afford you the opprtunity to usefully apply your legal skills, you may find yourself disappointed.

There are exceptions, of course. There are often jobs advertised for accountants or legal advisors but these are exist separately to the general, administrative grades and your opportunity to progress from these specialist grades will be limited.


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