# Now that ESB prices are going up.....again....



## ninsaga (6 Aug 2004)

...do we as residential consumers have an alternative source of electricty supply? Or is it that the likes of Airtricity, Viridian & Bord Gas only supply to commercial/industrial users?

ninsaga


----------



## sluice44 (7 Aug 2004)

I wonder could a resident's association (or a credit union) go to one of the alternative suppliers and bargain for, say, 300 (or 3000) houses?

Sluice


----------



## MAC (7 Aug 2004)

*Residents Association*

Sluice - very interesting idea.... would ALL the houses have to sign up I wonder order could some naysayers opt out?

As a matter of interest my bill last week was €250+ . We don't use immersion for heating water. House is about 1600 sq. ft and for this time of year this seems high to me - especially as the fatcats are getting their snouts into the trough for another 12-13% over the next 6 months.

Any others examples of typical ESB bills out there? Just like to check if mine is "normal" (whatever that is).

MAC


----------



## G (7 Aug 2004)

*Re-*

Just another bunch of mugs we are again,, this time in sitting back and accepting our dictator style bill paying system!!!!
Rumour has it that Bertie did a deal with G.Bush to run oil through our (suppose to be Port Tunnel) into our cosy Irish homes (which we pay for through the hilt anyway) as we invite friends over to our new social dwellings.. Well, lets face it.. now that a lot of us don't "Booze" it up in the "Boozers" anymore, they're gonna get us some way......... 
Happy days ESB, €20,000,000 PROFIT last year and they still fancy a grab of our hard earned cash!!
Nothing but a bunch of S***Bags!!!
Republic of Ireland... R.I.P


----------



## ninsaga (7 Aug 2004)

*Re: Re-*

MAC - that looks excessive...we're averaging €100 each bill for similar sized house. Your not trying to heat up the house with the electric over right?

ninsaga


----------



## MAC (8 Aug 2004)

*Excessive - ouch!*

Thanks Ninsaga!

Have to check with Mrs Mac on the electric oven thing!

But seriously I would have thought we were fairly normal ie. kids leaving TVs on here and there (not the adults of course!). Just think what would have changed in teh past year or so and a couple of things come to mind such as the old gardens lights / sunken lights in kitchen etc. (both of which I am assured are "low wattage" whatever that means...). Apart from that I installed an Americal fridge but I'm sure it had the right letter in the shop which should suggest some form of energy efficiency?

Any suggestions or any other bills based on  similar size houses?

Thanks
MAC


----------



## Cuchulainn (8 Aug 2004)

*esb*

I have a lock on  my back gate so most of my bills are estimated. Usually around €200 in Dec and €220  in Feb and €200 in April and €180 in June, However I am always in arrears with the estimates ie the Dec should be approx €220 and the Feb one €240 and they rest are fairly ok. What I usually do is over pay my June/Aug/Oct bills and phone in the correct meter readings once I am am back in the black. I have to do something about it too and I am getting in a plumber next week to overhaul my heating system, as its not as efficient as it should be. Also thinking of installing cavity wall insulation at the front and sides of house as it is a mid 70's bungalow and there is absolutely no insulation in those parts at all. There is at the back where I have an extension. Also I have double glazing on windows and patio doors and back door but not on front ( wooden) door so I may also replace that. These latter two options depend on the plumbing costs. He's mentioned taking off all the radiators and flushing them, changing the header tank to a mains supply, putting in a stronger pump. I also have a few other wee jobs when hes here. I have had a  lot of problems with heating since the entension about 10 years ago.ie I could run the heating from 7am to 11pm and I would not get even a thimble of hot water. Anyway I find the esb bill a big drain every two months and will have to tackle it one way or another. House is probably about 1600 sq ft.


----------



## ninsaga (8 Aug 2004)

*Re: esb*

MAC - what type of central heating are You using?


----------



## fatherdougalmaguire (9 Aug 2004)

*Re: esb*

Aren't there all sorts of cheap/free sources of energy which are being kept quiet because they would result in worldwide financial turmoil? Stuff like fusion at room temperature, running cars on water, etc.

I'll come back when I track down some references.

If the overcoats don't come and get me first.


----------



## XXXAnother PersonXXX (9 Aug 2004)

*Re: esb*



> sunken lights in kitchen etc



Check these first. The wattage is written on the bulbs. We stupidly installed ten of these and later found out that they are 60Watts each. Every time we switch the lights on, it like switching on a 600W bulb!


----------



## notalltheirfault (9 Aug 2004)

*Prices set by regulator*

High prices for electricity are not all the fault of the ESB.  They are made to put up the prices so as to make the market attractive for new entrants such as Eirtricity, etc..  The market regulator controls the prices and sets them high so new entrants will see it as an attractive market, regardless of the cost to the consumer.


----------



## MAC (9 Aug 2004)

*ESB.... aaaaagggghhh*

Ninsaga - We have Gas Fired CH

Another person - could be right about those little lights - will check them this eveing....thx

Notalltheirfault - with respect, I find that hard to believe. Wasn't it the ESB that went to the regulator looking for another load of charges. This occured just after it became known that the lads in Moneypoint were being offered a minimum of something like 87k a year (for everyone) to agree to a survival plan and the AVERAGE EARNINGS OF EVERY EMPLOYEE IN THE ESB WAS something like 69k. I can't imagine that any of their competitors are lumbered with those kind of costs.

MAC


----------



## Slim (13 Aug 2004)

*Re: ESB.... aaaaagggghhh*

WE built in 1999 so we have double glazing, everything insulated etc, OFCH, Dishwasher, Electtric shower and a gas hob with electric oven. I was horrified at the ESB bills but I think it is down to the light fittings - Losts of spotlights in Kitchen and landing, fancy sconces(2 bulbs each) and chandelier type fittings with 8 bulbs. I have taken to not replacing the bulbs unless I have to. Current(ha!ha!) bills avg. about €175 every two months. Too high.

Slim 8)


----------



## sinead76 (13 Aug 2004)

*esb bills*

my last bill was €87 (non-estimated readings)
I must be doing something right although i don't know what.  I'm not very energy efficient, i often wash clothes at 60c, do towels & cloths etc. at 90c, i spend at least 10 minutes a day in the shower - have 2 showers a day if i'm going out.  I use the oven and hob quite a bit, have a total of 9 light bulbs in my sitting room and 8 in my kitchen.
The only good things i do are never leave tv on standby - its either on or off.  And i don't like to use the tumble dryer unless i have to - haven't used it in about 6 weeks.  3 people live in my house, oil heating


----------



## daltonr (13 Aug 2004)

*Re: esb bills*

Maybe you're getting a bulk rate sinead.

 

-Rd


----------



## cuchulainn (16 Aug 2004)

*esb*

plumber called last week. stated( naturally ) that heating system was This post will be deleted if not edited to remove bad language (true) put a little red thingy like a little tin tank into boiler house. system now pressurised and working off mains. piping hot rads within seconds of heat coming on. appear to have buckets of hot water from 1 hours heat ( most I can stand at this time) still testing the system. admittedly only 3  rads out of 14 on but thermo turned down to min and pump also at min. can also control the amount of water running through the immersion tank. ie full flow or nothing at all is so desired. put new valves on all 14 rads. didnt get a price yet. has anyone else heard of this system where there is no header tank? also I assume that the mains while it supplies the water for the system only occasionally actually 'kicks in' otherwise I would be importing fresh water daily and soon would have no system at all. didnt get to talk to plumber properly as I was at work when he was here and he wont return until sometime next week. I can definitely see saving on he esb here. and maybe even on oil.


----------



## MAC (16 Aug 2004)

*Sounds great....*

Cuchulain, 


Sounds excellent, can you provide more details where he comes back?

Thanks
MAC


----------



## Cuchulainn (17 Aug 2004)

*esb etc*

Mac: sure will. have a lot of questions for him. I want to find out kind of system I have myself. Some sort of pressurised one for sure. will come back when I find out.
for what its worth all the fittings appear to be Italian.


----------



## ninsaga (17 Aug 2004)

*Re: esb etc*

I wonder if he installed a Cremin tank. See here if this resembles it... 

saw this at an ideal homes expo a few years back. Invented by a guy in Kerry I think. It removes the air out of the system reducind air locks in rads etc. I don't have one installed though!

ninsaga


----------



## Yommy (17 Aug 2004)

*ESB*

Lets hope Charlie McCreevy puts pressure on the Irish govt, in his new role, to open up the electricity and gas domestic markets to thorough competition.


----------



## sueellen (18 Aug 2004)

[broken link removed]

One word of warning that we got from an electrician was to be careful of the outside security lights as they use a lot of power especially if they are regularly set off by cats etc. or left on all night by forgetful husband!


----------



## Cuchulainn (18 Aug 2004)

*esb*

Ninsaga: No. More like a red beach ball, made of tin. My wife asked the plumbers mate (who did most of the work)what it was and he said it was sort of like a pressurised balloon and that it was for the overflow.  Its connectged to the return pipe just before the boiler.Will revert when I find out more . Systems appears to be magic compared with previous. Put on the heating tonight at around 9.15 and full tank of hot water in immersion at 10.00 and probably a lot earlier. Rads have very easy to control valves and even the slightest turn from fully closed off brings almost instant response and appears to be easy to control individual rads. I'm starting to get worried.


----------



## Cuchulainn (25 Sep 2004)

*Heating etc costs*

Mac: Apologies for not replying earlier, but I was waiting for about a month to see how the system was faring and how much ESB in particular I was using. The system works on a pressurised system with an expansion tank in the boiler house, whose  purpose is to absorb any water expansion volume ie overflow. There is a bladder inside this tank,  and it this tank which is pressurised. There is also a pressure gauge in the hotpress on the pipe carrying the water from the mains pipe. I previously had a lot of problems with my system, I had an underfloor leak, which was losing approx 30 gallons a day which did not show up until the urban coucil cut the water off during the nights in 1990/1991 or thereabouts. it was only then when we heard the radiators filling up each morning that the penny dropped. Had to get in the insurance and the cause was a kinked pipe which was left by the plumber who worked on the house entension. Sod. Anyway I asked my plumber how would I know if I had a leak with the new system as the system is mains fed  and pressurised and might put pressure on a leaky seal or joint etc and having no header tank to check out etc and he informed me that if I turned off the stop valve on the feed from the mains and I had a leak the pressure would drop to zero. Thats the only way to find out if a leak has occurred ,whereas with a header tank you can just tie up the ballcock and check the water level. There is also a air outlet valve in the hotpress and also in the boiler houe on new pipes he installed.The system is working fine but another consideration is that I dont have a dual system anymore. He cut the back boiler off completely and just emptied it.   Said a pressured system can't have a back boiler. I will probably change this to a gas fire in the near future as we only light it for two weeks and Christmas and a few weekends in Jan/Feb before getting fed up carrying in coal etc. I can still  light a fire but I will be heating only empty steel so effectively its only something to look at. My esb reading is just over 600 units for one complete month which is magic for me and I suspect I will benefit even more during the winter when the heating is on more during the day. The radiators are unbelievably hot and the valves on them have only to be turned on about 3/4 to 1 1/2 turns to get full heat, literally in minutes. And I have a full hot water tank from about 1/2 hour after the heating come on. I had to get a new copper cylinder as the coil in the previous one was completely gunged up . Cleaning out the radiators, new cylinder, installing new system and fitting new valves to 14 radiators cost €1100 which was more than I bargained for but if it saves me even €50 per two monthly esb I will recoup it in 3/4 years and this is the kind of saving I estimate I will be making. I will wait now until the Jan/Dec billing period to see if I am on course. My bill for this period last year as €240 and it was underestimated by 300 units.


----------



## MAC (26 Sep 2004)

*Thanks for the update*

Cuchulainn, thanks for the update. I'll print it and read it after the match.

MAC


----------



## N0elC (27 Sep 2004)

*Re: Thanks for the update*

How do our prices compare with the rest of Europe ? From personal experience, I know that electricity and gas are far cheaper in the UK than they are here.

Didn't the ESB and Bord Gais get some sort of reprieve from the EU a few years back, such that the Irish market won't be open to the same competition as in the UK ? 

Net winner ESB staff and management with fat profits and salaries: net loser the Irish consumer again !!!!

Opponents of the free market will point to the misselling problems that the UK used to have. The reposte to this is that the UK regulator has tightened up on these malpractices, and that if ever some form of competition were introduced into the Irish market, we should adopt similar safeguards.


----------



## rainyday (27 Sep 2004)

Competition isn't the panacea to problems in the power markets - It [broken link removed]


----------



## N0elC (27 Sep 2004)

I didn't say it was a panacea, but some form of competition would certainly be an improvement on the State monoliths that control our electricity and gas supplies at the moment if it brings low cost, highly reliable, utilities to domestic users homes as happens in the UK.


----------



## rainyday (27 Sep 2004)

> if it brings low cost, highly reliable, utilities to domestic users homes as happens in the UK.


And all the non-value-adding sales activities, doorstepping of vulnerable customers, churning of users etc etc that provide lots of material for the Watchdog consumer show in the UK.


----------



## N0elC (28 Sep 2004)

As I stated clearly in my original posting:



> ...the UK regulator has tightened up on these malpractices . . . if ever some form of competition were introduced into the Irish market, we should adopt similar safeguards.


----------



## Roytheboyo (29 Sep 2004)

*Wont reduce Prices*

People,
Be under no illusion that the introduction of competition will reduce prices.  It works like this:
ESB (or bord gais or whoever) charge x rate per unit of electricity or gas that goes through their network.  The supplier charges the end user x amount plus profits (+running costs etc). The catch is this:  ESB (+bord gais) have employed HUGE amounts of people to enable other users to have access to their network (not as simple as it sounds).
Surely the way to reduce the end price to the customer (which, incidentally is definately NOT the goal of introducing competition) is to shave every single non efficiency from the existing networks and charge the amount necessary for ESB(or Bord Gais) to break even, because every cent profit they make is an indirect taxation in my book.


----------



## rainyday (29 Sep 2004)

*Re: Wont reduce Prices*



> Be under no illusion that the introduction of competition will reduce prices.


Except of course, when it comes to building schools, where the privatised competition open-market model results in increases of 8%-13% on the conventional approach. Is it just possible that the 8% represents the Jarvis profit margin?


----------



## Roytheboyo (30 Sep 2004)

*Competition*

Hello,
I agree 100% that competition in most marketplaces will reduce prices.  
In the case where a physical network is required it will not reduce prices.  The price is still controlled by ESB who can charge what they want (in fact the more they can roll into that tarriff the better for them) for access to their network.  It is competition by name only.
The reason ESB are increasing prices is to create an incentive for companies to enter the market, this is also the case for gas.


----------



## Joan (30 Sep 2004)

*ESB ripoffs*

"In the case where a physical network is required it will not reduce prices."

Except that it has in the UK


----------

