# Excessive engineer fees - is this right?



## LozaD (8 Jul 2016)

My solicitor engaged an engineer (of their choice without giving me an option) to certify our property for sale. Anyway long story short - we ended up applying for retention permission for septic tank, wastewater treatment unit, shed etc before the property could be sold.
Two years after this process started, issues are sorted and property sold. Just the engineer bill seems astronomical - I was issued an original bill of €3,850 but when I tried to settle up this bill (and asked if he was willing to come down in price) he came back and said the actual amount owed is €5,055. No new bill was issued, I wasn't informed of any additional work that was going to add to the bill.
I'm not trying to duck out of paying him but this seems excessive.
Is this a normal fee for retention permission?
And can he increase the price like that without letting me know?
Am I in a position to negotiate?
Meeting with him and the solicitor on Monday at 12 to go through the charges. I got an email breakdown which seems like he's just made up figures.

Breakdown is:
Original fees:
Expenses re: Os maps, advertisement, planning retention fee, site note - €200
Planning fees incl. Site visits (20? over 5 days to do percolation, site suitabilty, travel, postage expenses - €2,700
Telephone expenses €200

= €3,150 plus vat (€3,874.50)


Dealing with additional planning information request - €565.50

Fees applicable for the various mapping, checking boundaries and all the work that was done pre planning, fees for this which were not included originally - €500.00 plus vat €615.00

Grand total €5055 approx


----------



## noproblem (8 Jul 2016)

Comes across as excessive to me, but very naive of you to have not been more involved in the whole process. I don't see what you can do about it apart from getting it broken down into each and every detail which I very much doubt you'll succeed in doing. Sorry about that but, just my opinion.


----------



## moneybox (8 Jul 2016)

It looks like original planning  permission was never sought for the  septic tank, were development fees to the local council included in that bill?


----------



## LozaD (8 Jul 2016)

I don't know tbh, if that's the case does it seem right? 
I do think the septic tank was included on the original planning in 1970 but the new regulations had an impact on this... it was all to get certification to sell
thanks for the replies


----------



## PaddyBloggit (8 Jul 2016)

I can't see how the engineer's bill would include development fees to Council. The engineer would not be paying your bills and then billing you for it.


----------



## mf1 (8 Jul 2016)

"My solicitor engaged an engineer (*of their choice without giving me an option)"*

Nothing to do with me, Guv.

This is not what happens. 

This was OP's problem for OP to resolve because they wanted to sell a property that was seriously dubious in terms of planning compliance. It took two years to resolve.

Who can tell whether it is excessive without knowing what was actually involved? 

mf


----------



## LozaD (8 Jul 2016)

Do you mean that usually solicitors don't go off and give the job to their engineer buddy? Because that's what they did and I said that was bad practice at the time...

Look I'm not playing the damsel in distress card but I'm a female and I don't know if I'm being really overcharged here...



mf1 said:


> "My solicitor engaged an engineer (*of their choice without giving me an option)"*
> 
> Nothing to do with me, Guv.
> 
> ...


----------



## noproblem (8 Jul 2016)

Loza,
It's done, forget about it, lesson learned or not. Move on.


----------



## mf1 (8 Jul 2016)

"Do you mean that usually solicitors don't go off and give the job to their engineer buddy?" 

Yes, that is exactly what I mean. 

"Because that's what they did and I said that was bad practice at the time..."

So - on that basis, you worked out what the problems were, what needed to happen to fix them and you approached a number of different engineers to get prices?

And if you didn't do that , then how on earth do you expect anyone else to tell you whether you are now being overcharged? 

mf


----------



## Leo (8 Jul 2016)

LozaD said:


> Do you mean that usually solicitors don't go off and give the job to their engineer buddy? Because that's what they did and I said that was bad practice at the time...



Then was the time to state you weren't happy and look for an alternative yourself. Have you spoken to your solicitor, and what do they have to say about this? 



LozaD said:


> Look I'm not playing the damsel in distress card but I'm a female and I don't know if I'm being really overcharged here...



Who did the engineer discuss the additional works with? Did you get the scope of works in writing? You could argue you weren't consulted and so should only pay the originally agreed fees, but it's all a little messy as to who engaged who, and who oversaw the whole process.


----------



## Clubber Lang (8 Jul 2016)

I think part of the problem is understanding what an Engineer is likely to charge for their time which of course comes down to their experience, and understanding the time involved in preparing a planning submission. 

I would always assume/expect an hourly cost of at least 70 euro/hr for an Engineer operating as a sole trader. 

The only cost I would query is why the background checks were omitted from his original quote: 



LozaD said:


> Fees applicable for the various mapping, checking boundaries and all the work that was done pre planning, fees for this which were not included originally - €500.00 plus vat €615.00


----------



## cremeegg (8 Jul 2016)

No one can say wether you are being over charged or not. Certainly it is not a small bill. And the initial amount and then the higher amount is just ridiculous. Makes the engineer look amateurish. It does not reflect well on your solicitor either, he recruited an engineer who can't even issue a correct bill.



mf1 said:


> "My solicitor engaged an engineer (*of their choice without giving me an option)"*



If you really think that this is what happened just tell the solicitor that he engaged the engineer and he can pay his bill.

Of course that is not your final position, but throw that out there and then, and this the important bit DONT BLINK. Wait and see what they come back with.


----------



## moneybox (8 Jul 2016)

LozaD said:


> I don't know tbh, if that's the case does it seem right?
> I do think the septic tank was included on the original planning in 1970 but the new regulations had an impact on this... it was all to get certification to sell
> thanks for the replies


I had to get an engineer out to certify a house I am selling last month.  It turned out I needed retention planning for a shed. The total cost for certification , site survey,. Boundary checks,. County. Council retention  planning fee,  relevant  notices, and other minor items came to €1400. I dont have septic tank. So in comparison your bill is really expensive.

PS I got all this sorted before I ever put the house on the market and even before I saw my solicitor.


----------



## DamC82 (9 Jul 2016)

Telephone expenses €200??

How long could they have possibly spent on your case on the phone ?!! Were they calling US/ Australia??


----------



## mf1 (9 Jul 2016)

"If you really think that this is what happened just tell the solicitor that he engaged the engineer and he can pay his bill.
Of course that is not your final position, but throw that out there and then, and this the important bit DONT BLINK. Wait and see what they come back with."

They'll both be quaking in their shoes so!

Maybe remember that OP is trying to sell her house and that ain't gonna happen any time soon if she manages to tick everyone on her own side off.

mf


----------



## moneybox (9 Jul 2016)

mf1 said:


> Maybe remember that OP is trying to sell her house and that ain't gonna happen any time soon if she manages to tick everyone on her own side off.
> 
> mf



OP's house is already sold


----------



## Branz (9 Jul 2016)

moneybox said:


> I had to get an engineer out to certify a house I am selling last month.  It turned out I needed retention planning for a shed. The total cost for certification , site survey,. Boundary checks,. County. Council retention  planning fee,  relevant  notices, and other minor items came to €1400. I dont have septic tank. So in comparison your bill is really expensive.
> 
> PS I got all this sorted before I ever put the house on the market and even before I saw my solicitor.



The only applicable comparison here is retention.


----------



## KOW (9 Jul 2016)

1. Many solicitors push their clients in a certain direction when additional services/advice is requires.Client simply go along to avoid hazzle,

2. If a mechanic carpenter builder tried this billing nonsense would you put up with it?

3. The engineer and his buddy certainly will not be "quaking in their pants" and you certainly should not be.

3300sq ft house built 20m away from where planning permitted. On 12 acres with 1500ft stables. Septic tank fitted with no dischage licence etc etc. Retention was needed in relation to house, entrance and the more serious issues around septic tank/discharge. all in order to sell. Done dusted all fees included 2700euro.

The 200euro is just a little taste of how dishonest this rip off merchant is. Dont give into this rip off.


----------



## Clubber Lang (9 Jul 2016)

DCD said:


> 3300sq ft house built 20m away from where planning permitted. On 12 acres with 1500ft stables. Septic tank fitted with no dischage licence etc etc. Retention was needed in relation to house, entrance and the more serious issues around septic tank/discharge. all in order to sell. Done dusted all fees included 2700euro.



Did you go back to your original Engineer, if so, it is pretty easy to amend drawings rather than set-up from scratch.  Point is might not be a direct comparison.


----------



## LozaD (9 Jul 2016)

Thank you so much for all those replies, I feel like I can go in Monday a little better prepared, bringing someone to sit in with me and give me their opinion after. I really appreciated those points.


----------

