# could this be ireland in the 2030 s



## Guest109 (6 Dec 2006)

[broken link removed]

i think this guy has hit it on the button,time will tell


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## tiger (7 Dec 2006)

[P]Would tend to agree with the thoughts, however I think there could be alot of mobility within the EU.  How many young poles would up sticks to Germany if it started to boom there?  (BTW the article is over 3yrs old). [/P][P]A garage/workshop has been taken over on my street by a group of poles, they work until 8-9 at night and are open 7 days a week (much to the annoyance of the immediate neighbours!).  Hopefully they'll sort out my exhaust at the weekend.[/P][P]Much more interested to hear Michael o Muircheartaigh try and get his tounge around some of the names that will be lining out in 10-15 years time in croker![/P]


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## phoenix_n (7 Dec 2006)

From my personal experience one of our Polish colleagues has opened a coffee shop across the road and is now in the process of opening up a restaurant. All this while doing his 'day' job. My jibes of 'didn't know you went part-time' in reference to his constant absence don't seem to translate well as he never finds it amusing.


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## Guest109 (8 Dec 2006)

http://www.u.tv/newsroom/indepth.asp?id=78460&pt=n

also just seen today a polish restuarant opening in my home town,they sure are getting into the swing of it here


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## ClubMan (8 Dec 2006)

ainya said:


> http://www.u.tv/newsroom/indepth.asp?id=78460&pt=nalso just seen today a polish restuarant opening in my home town,they sure are getting into the swing of it here


Surely shoe care shops are a bit specialist this day and age?


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## extopia (8 Dec 2006)

Well I think hard working people tend to thrive everywhere, especially when there's a strong economy generating plenty of customers with money to spend. The opportunity is there for everyone. Is the suggestion that the Irish don't work hard enough? From what I see on our roads there are huge numbers of Irish people going to work early and leaving late.

Or are we a little miffed to realise that some of our immigrants are actually entrepreneurs? Not everyone ups sticks and travels a thousand miles just to flip hamburgers.


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## bogwarrior (8 Dec 2006)

In societies with large immigrant populations (i.e. US, Australia) research shows that the children of immigrants tend to do better in school than kids who's parents are from the host society.  After 1 generation though, things even themselves out - the children of the high-achieving 'first generation' do just about the same as everyone else.


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## Wilkes (8 Dec 2006)

As an avid D.McW. reader I sometimes wonder why he seems to bypass or overlook three large sections of Irish society when he quite correctly fingers our whinging. I don't rate myself a whinger btw but if you care to look deeper isn't there a lot more to see?

What about the huge number of Irish famillies who scrape by on the AIW or less and resort to money lenders to make ends meet. I mean Credit Unions, Credit Cards etc. These famillies are not borrowing for plasma screens and would never consider wasting money on decking. Underneath is a very disadvantaged group including disabled, home carers and elderly on subsistence income. I know its a smaller group than yesteryear but it is still very large.

In between these and the "head on" group that so facinates David are the barely coping middle income earners and I don't mean the inner urban type that he sees in his day but those stuck four hours or longer every day in the transport mess. This has a massive knock on cost to famillies and to children. I don't mean those caught up in the conspicuous consumption cycle but just ordinary Irish famillies trying to get along without a lot of spare capacity either in income or time.

This leads us to the question I think that's still not adaquately measured. What is the impact on our children who see this "head on" machine, the young who spend a lot less time with their parents because of the two income need, and the older who see ahead a work / lifestyle that seems like it bleeds yound adults especially if you want to buy a roof over your head. We have growing pyschological problems with children some of it emerging in binge drinking and in suicide. How do we reconcile this growing trend with the success of our economy?

Its true that emigrants who come from far less economically advanced societies than our own love the Irish opportunity but give them ten years here and children when they too are faced with the issues of raising a family and the results will be the same. It is inevitable that an entrepreneur class will emerge and it will be fantastic but innate business talent will be limited to the small minority so blessed. Most immigrant famillies regardless of work ethic will find themselves in the same meat grinder unless something radical is done about public transport and affordable living accomodation.


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## sunrock (8 Dec 2006)

Immigrants always have certain advantages over native workers when they come to ireland.
Firstly by definition they have more energy and are younger  and more eager to work hard to make money....the lazy or older tend to stay, or return very soon back to poland.
They are not embarrased to do menial work beneath their qualifications or to work much harder or even to do shady work in sex industry or whatever ,than they would be prepared to do in poland....of course it helps when you are in a place where you are not known by everyone.
The  money here ,even minimum wage is big money in poland...i`m sure irish workers would be lured if someone offered them 100e /hr for example.
A big recruitment drive by irish authorities encouraged these workers to come here....citing a desperate need ,big wages  and lazy native workers.
I was in central europe in 1992 , and saw how the czecks and hungarians wer working hard  to build up their cities..however in poland  the people seemed not to be doing this and only wanted instant wealth and foreign currency.
Its no surprise that  a greater number of poles than czecks or hungarians have emigrated.
Anyway the poles are like any emigrant group,willing to work hard for the first 5 to 10 years ..return to poland .. buy a house/business and semi retire.
They cannot become established here like in australia or u.s. because the price of property here is too high...what pole who has saved 100,000e here is going to take out a mortgage here when with that money he could have a property portfolio in poland,
And secondly the ease  and cost of returning is so easy, and of course the costs and wages will harmonise.
Which brings me to the thread ..ireland in the 30s....there will of course be a certain amount of east europeans still coming ..probably from further east  ....however the ones left over from the last 10years and their children will be down the social order...they cannot afford property here  so are renting or getting rent allowance and in a less than booming time will be a discriminated group especially so as they compete for the better jobs......however they can take comfort from the fact that they are doing better than the asylum seekers children or immigrants born "on the way/boat"  to ireland and poor immigrants from africa_these form  a new underclass, who rely mostly on welfare  not withstanding the few success stories such as musicians and sportsmen including the first 1 million e /year gaelic footballer.
There has been a big slump in proprty prices ..it seems nobody wanted houses in the 20s .. all remembering the burning received back in the teens ....much blaming and hand wringing  as politicians jockeyed for public approval and all promised a return to the good old days back about 20 or was it 30 years ago
But property prices are starting to rise again and soon everyone is working harder building ever bigger houses.....such is life


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## derryman (8 Dec 2006)

sunrock said:


> .
> They are not embarrased to do menial work beneath their qualifications or to work much harder or even to do shady work in sex industry or whatever ,than they would be prepared to do in poland....of course it helps when you are in a place where you are not known by everyone.


 
Come on - I am sure that the poor misfortunate who are "trafficked" here by criminals to work in our Celtic Pussy sex industry did not do this by choice - more so by criminal subversion


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## z107 (8 Dec 2006)

I just read the article - well skimmed through it anyway (I have work to do)

It's nonsense.

By virtue of very fact that these people have decided to travel to another country to work, surely means that they are predisposed to want to work


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## ClubMan (8 Dec 2006)

derryman said:


> Come on - I am sure that the poor misfortunate who are "trafficked" here by criminals to work in our Celtic Pussy sex industry did not do this by choice - more so by criminal subversion


How many cases of sex industry human trafficking have been proven in _Ireland_?


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## derryman (8 Dec 2006)

ClubMan said:


> How many cases of sex industry human trafficking have been proven in _Ireland_?


 
Oh Clubman again - ho-hum

how this one, my moderation buddy? - enough Ireland references for you?

[broken link removed]


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## conor_mc (8 Dec 2006)

ClubMan said:


> How many cases of sex industry human trafficking have been proven in _Ireland_?


 
ClubMan, why do you insist on taking up contrarian positions based on semantics?

I doubt that so many Eastern European women dreamed of being lap-dancers in Dublin when they were little girls - while they may not have been _trafficked_ here, circumstances may have forced them to resort to lap-dancing to make ends meet. The less lucky of them will have burly "minders" forcing them to participate in prostitution against their will, after being lured to the country by unsavoury characters with promises of a new life etc, etc.

In fairness, we've all seen the PrimeTime documentaries, the anecdotal evidence is everywhere, circumstantial evidence even more so (are you saying that every woman working in the sex industry is doing so by choice?)..... why do you chose to argue a point based on the lack of courtroom convictions?


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## ClubMan (8 Dec 2006)

conor_mc said:


> ClubMan, why do you insist on taking up contrarian positions based on semantics?


I don't consider it mere semantics to challenge what seem to be inaccurate insinuations - in this case the ones above about the incidence of human trafficking for the sex industry in _Ireland_. The document posted above is very vague about problems in this area:


> [FONT=&quot]Trafficking *appears to be* a growing problem in Ireland.[FONT=&quot][1][/FONT] Most trafficking *appears to be* for the commercial sex industry. One organization recently reported that it has started to receive calls on its domestic violence hotline from women trafficked into the country and forced into prostitution. Although *the volume of calls has been limited*, it *may represent* a “new and worrying trend.”[/FONT]


I seem to recall a recent interview with a _Garda _spokesperson in which he confirmed that they have never dealt with any cases of alleged human trafficking for the sex industry to date.


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## polo9n (8 Dec 2006)

here comes the paddy attitude again..no case of human trafficking? come on, for real? obviously living in cuculand and catching people speedinig on m50 @60km at his best


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## derryman (8 Dec 2006)

ClubMan said:


> The document posted above is very vague about problems in this area:
> 
> I seem to recall a recent interview with a _Garda _spokesperson in


 
Actually Clubman your comments are vague and contrarian to the point of being antagonistic to site users - meanwhile you protect behind your moderator "status".  Like all account people choose to believ what they want - if you want to believe that women willingly prostitute themselves - so be it.  BTW I fully expect this post to be deleted regardless of probity.

from the document - that has countless media crossreferences to arrest / prosecutions

"In 2003, three English-language schools were under investigation for posing as fronts for trafficking women from Eastern Europe to Ireland. Gardai believed the schools offered women legal permits to study in Ireland but then sent them to work as lap dancers and in prostitution across the country.[1] In June 2003, more than 100 people—96 of them women—were held in raids on 10 lap-dancing clubs across the country. Of those arrested, 71 were accused of working illegally, and 10, mostly Eastern European women, were charged under the Aliens Act. The raids were part of Operation Quest, a crackdown on illegal immigration and trafficking.[2] In August 2003, Gardai broke up a criminal gang that forced South American women to work as sex slaves. The women’s passports had been confiscated by the gang when the women arrived in Dublin. The gang is believed to have brought at least 30 women into Ireland over a 4-month period; most were in their early 20s. Some of the women appeared to believe that they would be working as domestic servants. They were kept in apartments in Cork, Dublin, Galway, Limerick, and Waterford. These charges were the first brought for trafficking for prostitution against anyone in Ireland.[3] 
In January 2004, Gardai arrested two pimps accused of trafficking, raping, and assaulting foreign women in prostitution, mostly from Africa and Eastern Europe. The women were forced to work in brothels in Kilkenny and Carlow. Detectives believe the pimps are running a chain of brothels around the country.[4] In March 2004, a man was arrested for producing child pornography, using four children under the age of 10. It was the first time someone in Ireland had been arrested for producing, not just distributing, child pornography.[5] In December 2004, a Portuguese man was jailed for 9 months for smuggling two Brazilian women into Ireland.


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## conor_mc (8 Dec 2006)

ClubMan said:


> I don't consider it mere semantics to challenge what seem to be inaccurate insinuations - in this case the ones above about the incidence of human trafficking for the sex industry in _Ireland_.


 
I would. Derryman put the word "trafficked" in quotes - I assume to infer that he meant the colloquial use of the word, rather than it's strict legal definition.

Given that criminals would have no use of trafficking by its legal definition for women from the accession states - these women are entitled to travel to Ireland after all - I think its fair to say derryman was referring to general attempts to lure or coerce these women to move to Ireland to participate in the sex industry. Strictly speaking, there's nothing illegal about promising a girl several hundred euro for a nights work so I'm not surprised this particular crime of human trafficking for the sex trade might not have popped up on the Gardai's radar.


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## sunrock (8 Dec 2006)

Its amazing what angles of my admitedly speculative post ,that people zero in on, and the subsequent posts that  follow on.
I was refering to guys with university education from eastern europe ,working as a labourer on a building site ,for example.In my opinion,that is no surprise and no one has a divine right to a job that meets their qualifications.
Of course eastern european girls come here voluntarily , and may also be highly educated or not as the case may be.....they usually find work in shops ,hotels,nannys.restarants, cleaners.....like everyone else they are constantly trying to better themselves  and if they can make more money in a lap dance club  or even prostitution  ,some will decide to make some money this way. For example a hundred euros for 30 minutes work is tempting for a girl on a low paid job,who mightn`t have the highest morals to begin with. After all aren`t many russian women trying to marry irish men  to have a better life?
I`ve no doubt some girls come to this country to work in the sex industry  in brothels  and have "bosses" who  organise everything. Its a grey area...many of the girls may be from outside the E.U.  and basically its a business.It works beacause there are punters,the girls make their wages and the bosses make their profits.


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## ClubMan (8 Dec 2006)

derryman said:


> Actually Clubman your comments are vague and contrarian to the point of being antagonistic to site users - meanwhile you protect behind your moderator "status".


I have not been antagonistic to anybody here and am in no way "hiding behind" my moderator status (sorry "status") whatever that means...


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## Remix (8 Dec 2006)

derryman said:


> from the document - that has countless media crossreferences to arrest / prosecutions
> 
> "In 2003, three English-language schools were under investigation for posing as fronts for trafficking women from Eastern Europe to Ireland. Gardai believed the schools offered women legal permits to study in Ireland but then sent them to work as lap dancers and in prostitution across the country...
> .


 
Not just a problem with sections of Ireland's underclass. Something's rotten in higher levels too.

Let's not forget that Irelands largest bank helped with financial support to open a large strip/lap dancing club in Dublin.

I wonder if the business plan included expanding the chain throughout Ireland?

The "business" failed and the bank incurred a big loss - so this particularly seedy line of irish moneylending appeared to be closed off.


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## daltonr (8 Dec 2006)

Reading McWilliams article, it sounds to me like he read "The Millionaire Mind" and "The Millionaire Next Door"

There's nothing new or exciting about the idea that immigrants prosper within a generation or two, often by setting up their own businesses. The reasons for it are described in the books I mentioned, both of which are worth reading.

It's also worth mentioning that the immigrants who work hardest to provide for their families often encourage their children into jobs like Medicine and Law, in an attempt to give them "a better life" than they had themselves.

And, the children of those Doctor's and Lawyers, grow up always being confortable and the country needs a new generation of immigrants to start businesses and create wealth.



> One thing is certain: emigration is a Darwinian process that self selects the brightest, most enthusiastic of any tribe and as a result is always beneficial to the host country and almost always to the migrant.


 
Ah David, you're too kind.

-Rd


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## Ancutza (8 Dec 2006)

Sunrock, I sense a certain scathingness to the Polish community who have chosen to work in Ireland.  At best its a bit dismissive and at worst its offensive.  Sure they're (the girls) only here to be hookers anyway.

As for Russian women trying to latch-on to Irish guys in order to better themselves well isn't the human condition one which always seeks self-betterment?  So what's inherently wrong with that?  It's the Irish guys who are the clowns if they allow themselves get involved with a girl whose motives are less than above board.

By the way I'm married to an eastern european girl (Romanian) and I'd face instant divorce if I announced that we were going back to live in sunny Ireland.  Plus I had to beg and gnash my teeth for 18 months to get a date with her in the first place!!!  Not everyone is desperate to bail out of the 'home' country or to do whatever is necessary to get on.

Why don't you consider the Poles to be the hard-working folk they so obviously are and get on with it.  If they pay their taxes in Ireland what's the problem?


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## Persius (8 Dec 2006)

There was a documentry on UTV about prostitution in NI recently. I think it's fair to say the "market" is pretty much the same north or south of the border. A PSNI spokesman said that most prostitutes actually were British, and often students, who came over to Ireland as "touring escorts" to make quick money (supply and demand in Irl vs GB). He said they found no element of coercian in this.

From experience in Britian and Continental Europe, most prostitutes who are promised work as waitresses, then trafficed into the country and forced to work as prostitutes come from countries that do not have any automatic right to enter the EU. Russia and the Ukraine are obvious examples, but there are currently a large number of women being trafficed from Moldova, Albania and Romania. I believe in southern Europe, alot of the trafficed women are from Africa.

In countries where prostitution is legal (Holland) or semi-legal (Germany) it is generally accepted amongst law enforcement that many of the east europeans are working as prostitutes of their own free will. It is a way for them to make a lot of money in a short timeframe and then return home. Law enforcement focus their efforts on releasing women forced to be prostitutes.

I would think it is fair to say, based on european experience that most prostitutes in Ireland from EU states are working of their own free will. That's not to say that trafficing doesn't happen here as well. Considering the money to be made (compare rates with continental europe), theres a lot of incentive to traffic, but also the added difficulty of getting onto the Island.


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## ClubMan (9 Dec 2006)

Do you really think it's a good idea to generalise like this about people of a particular nationality based on presumably limited experiences like these?


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## sunrock (9 Dec 2006)

Ancutza said:


> Sunrock, I sense a certain scathingness to the Polish community who have chosen to work in Ireland. At best its a bit dismissive and at worst its offensive. Sure they're (the girls) only here to be hookers anyway.


 
No problem with poles or any other immigrants ancutza.
I only mentioned them as they are the largest immigrant group from eastern europe in what was a discussion on the prospects of immigrants in ireland.I did observe when I was in central EUROPE IN THE EARLY 90s that hungary and the czeck republic seemed more positive about building up their own countries,whereas the poles were waiting for something to happen and were not as active in rebuilding their own country.They were more interested in working abroad.
Other posters have zeroed in on immigrant prostitutes and whether these are voluntary or coerced workers.I SUSPECT fewer polish girls are in this game than other east european countries immigrants....anyway i don`t have a moral position on this....people make decisions about ways of earning money.
No doubt as other posters have shown immigrants have a lot of drive and work hard to be a success. However their children are not going to be as motivated as they are basically irish having been born and brought up here...the big lure of working hard for 2 or 3 years and returning to buy a big house in their home country doesn`t exist for them. 
The chinese are different again.....asians in the u.s. go the education route...and so we will probably see many chinese professionals in the future.
However if we have hard times in ireland,i think most immigrants would be quick to leave,... much as we might like to think they come here because they like us or our ways.....


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## daltonr (11 Dec 2006)

> whereas the poles were waiting for something to happen and were not as active in rebuilding their own country


 
<sarcasm>
You're right, they'd never fit in here.   The Irish would never allow ourselves to go with a begging bowl to Europe.  When things were bad here in the 80's and early 90's, we built the country from scratch by the sweat of our brow without shoes on our feet or an This post will be deleted if not edited to remove bad language in our pants.   And we didn't take one penny from Europe to do it.

That's what these new Eastern European countries don't understand isn't it?  Just because there are wealthy countries in Europe, like us and poor countries like them, it's really not fair for us to have to take in their emigrants, or send them money to help build their country.

I mean, did anyone help take in our emigrants during the 80's, or help us out with structural funding?   No they did not, and we were too proud a nation to accept help like that even it it was offered.
We did it all ourselves by saving our pennies, and getting 5p refunds on Coke bottles, and eating Corn Flakes with warm water instead of milk.   And we were glad to have it.
</sarcasm>

-Rd


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## sunrock (11 Dec 2006)

Very sarcastic!
 I WAS JUST stating a fact....a higher proportion of polish people have emigrated than for example hungarians or czecks.
I don`t have any problem with poles coming to work in ireland.....and as you have mentioned irish people emigrated in the 80s.
It however is a sad reflection on polands politicians and policy makers,just as it was irish politicians fault for having high emigration from ireland in the 80s.
I MEAN the ireland  of the 80s desperately needed to build up its infrastructure and services  ....it would have meant taxing people more in order to get everyone working and building up the country.....but no the selfishness of the halves  decided that emigration was a safety valve!
And spare me the platitudes that our politicians trotted out to hide the harsh reality...that we were only a small island..and it was a great adventure.
Poland is a fine country with a lot of good arable land, and the people are very friendly.but their political leaders have left them down badly.


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## daltonr (12 Dec 2006)

Don't worry sunrock, I'm just poking fun at the people who have a problem with us taking in those from Eastern Europe, or with Ireland making a Net contribution to Europe. 

You're wrong about one things though....




> the ireland of the 80s desperately needed to build up its infrastructure and services ....it would have meant taxing people more in order to get everyone working and building up the country.....but no the selfishness of the halves decided that emigration was a safety valve!


 
By the mid to late 80's it was already too late. The damage was done in the 70's. By the 80's taxes were already high, and Ireland was borrowing just to keep the country ticking over. Investing large sums of money in infrastructure was almost out of the question.

The recovery of the Irish economy was only possible because of a perfect storm of circumstances. 

Very tough steps were taken to cut spending, perhaps too tough in retrospect. 
Some intelligent (and somewhat lucky) tactics attracted multinationals in particular Hardware and Software companies right at the start of an enormous global IT Boom. 
Europe coughed up a couple of vanloads of cash to help build infrastructure that almost certainly would not have gotten built otherwise.

Most of the Haves that you mentioned didn't care too much what the tax rates were in Ireland. The real Have's in this world pay very little tax, that's why they're Haves.

-Rd


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