# Sky news and sexism



## Bronte (27 Jan 2011)

I've read what the guys said, I've seen the clips and I don't get it.  I consider myself a feminist but this story I don't get.  It's been on non stop all week, even this morning my other half was listening to Off The Ball on Newstalk and that's all they could talk about and every man on radio is falling over themselves explaining that the two guys on Sky were so wrong.


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## Caveat (27 Jan 2011)

Did the pair not make remarks implying that the assistant referee, Sian whoever, could not be relied upon to make good decisions because she was a woman? Something like that. It has been suggested that there is more to it though and there was something of a 'stitch up' - one of the pair are currently sueing the News of the World - same media group that owns his employers, SKY.

Just my two cents - can't stand those two individuals anyway.


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## DB74 (27 Jan 2011)

What about the "Soccerette" section on Soccer Saturday or the Yorkie ads that used to be on during the same programme (Yorkie sponsor the show I think)

Double standards - surely not!


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## Ceist Beag (27 Jan 2011)

In the Star yesterday they had a front page on the story claiming "sexist" Gray got the sack for making rude comments to a colleague - accompanied by a half page picture of said colleague in her bikini! Definitely something else going on with this story that's for sure!


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## Caveat (27 Jan 2011)

DB74 said:


> What about the "Soccerette" section on Soccer Saturday or the Yorkie ads that used to be on during the same programme (Yorkie sponsor the show I think)
> 
> Double standards - surely not!


 
Yes totally - but the above is dressed up as humour/banter.

Which I think is the crux of the current controversy in a way - the two guys were using the same type of defense, that they weren't being serious and were playing at "blokeishness" etc but people seem to think that their tone did not indicate this, that there was an aggressive element to the remarks.

That's what I have picked up anyway - don't know much more about it.


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## pinkyBear (27 Jan 2011)

I personally think there is more going on than meets the eye. There was a piece on Off the ball last night, and they were looking at the potential issue Sky have with ESPN possibly looking to start buying up the rights to show English premiership games. Therefore these sackings have given Sky the chance to revamp their commentary. What I find odd - well not really odd, but that one of the videos dates back from '91 I think.. So I think it is quite orchestrated.  

P..


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## Bill Struth (27 Jan 2011)

DB74 said:


> What about the "Soccerette" section on Soccer Saturday or the Yorkie ads that used to be on during the same programme (Yorkie sponsor the show I think)
> 
> Double standards - surely not!


Or the ongoing 'joke' on soccer am about Georgie Thompson's box!


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## Shawady (27 Jan 2011)

I thought what was more controversial was the fact they questioned her ability to do her job because she was a woman.
The irony was that she made an important decision which led to a goal and she was right.


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## DB74 (27 Jan 2011)

Shawady said:


> I thought what was more controversial was the fact they questioned her ability to do her job because she was a woman.
> The irony was that she made an important decision which led to a goal and she was right.


 
Absolutely but Andy Gray wasn't sacked over this single incident - he was sacked because of others which were overtly sexist, yet one of their flagship shows is hugely sexist.

Richard Keys wasn't sacked at all


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## zxcvbnm (27 Jan 2011)

Are there any women out there reading this thread that actually were offended by what was said?
Surely people cant be that sensitive?

I have to say it's absolutely ridiculous.Give them a bit a bit oif a telling off to keep up appearances, fine.

But sacking/forced to resign is way OTT in my book.


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## Latrade (27 Jan 2011)

I don't think there's any reasonable argument that the specifics of what was said were inappropriate. However, my view is that if anyone wished to take small snippets of any private conversation I'd ever had, they could easily paint me as all kinds of an objectional person. 

By all accounts though this wasn't an isolated thing, however I'm just wary of rushing to such judgement when all I'm given is 30 seconds out of what might have been a much longer conversation. Who knows whether they qualified the "offside" comment with the fact that most male assistants (and football pundits) don't understand the rule either? 

Have I never had a "typical male" conversation with friends and colleagues? Have I never joked that women don't understand sports and some its elements? Have I never said something to a woman with a nod and a wink? 

I'm not saying I've acted anywhere near as overtly as the pair of idiots here, but again, if those conversations and elements were isolated and taken out of the greater conversation I'm not sure I'd come across any different. I'm not sure anyone would.

Funnily enough, I get the feeling that the broadcast media have some sympathy with the two, if only because they're worried about what they say off mic or off camera ever getting into the public eye.


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## The_Banker (27 Jan 2011)

Leaving aside any feelings I have about Andy Gray, his commentator abilities or his Scottish accent my first impression when I heard this story was that Andy Gray was rightfully sacked. There is no place for sexism in today’s TV industry. 

Then I sat back and thought about it. 

Andy Gray is working for SKY for 20 years. Has he only started making these remarks in the last few months? I doubt it. The terms he used were just banter. I have used them and so has every male in my office. Should we all be fired? Then I discover he is suing the News of the World because they hacked into his phone to listen to his voicemail. There are countless other people in the UK suing Rupert Murdoch’s Newspaper for the same reason.

Rupert Murdoch owns the NOTW. As far as I know he is also the majority shareholder in SKY.

Then all of a sudden clips start getting leaked to newspapers in the UK. They were feed in a drip drip method to ratchet up the public frenzy against him. 
Andy Gray is accused of sexism and is fired. Surely this was an orchestrated witch hunt against him? Richard Keys and the sideline reporter are just collateral damage in this. 

Murdoch owns a collection on tabloids in the UK who publish photos of topless women on page 3, have photographers sitting outside nightclubs to try and get upskirt pictures of celebrity women getting out of cars and have photographers hiding in bushes to try and get photos of women naked through gaps in curtains and then they accuse Andy Gray of sexism!!?? 
The whole thing stinks to high heaven and I hope he sues them for all he can.


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## pinkyBear (27 Jan 2011)

I agree with you Banker, there is alot more to this than meets the eye..


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## Ceist Beag (27 Jan 2011)

The_Banker said:


> Leaving aside any feelings I have about Andy Gray, his commentator abilities or his Scottish accent my first impression when I heard this story was that Andy Gray was rightfully sacked. There is no place for sexism in today’s TV industry.
> 
> Then I sat back and thought about it.
> 
> ...



+1 to all of that.


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## Bronte (27 Jan 2011)

zxcvbnm said:


> Are there any women out there reading this thread that actually were offended by what was said?
> Surely people cant be that sensitive?
> 
> I have to say it's absolutely ridiculous.Give them a bit a bit oif a telling off to keep up appearances, fine.
> ...


 
Well I wasn't offended, I've tried to understand how it was really offensive. Two blokes being blokes. Off air. 

This brings up much more important issues of free speech. 

Also apart from my belief that Sky wanted the man sacked there is something wrong with the way all male presenters are saying that the men were outragerously sexist and deserved to be fired when they were not outragerously sexist and they certainly didn't deserve to be fired for it.  Why are men feeling the need to 'prove' that they are on message.


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## zxcvbnm (27 Jan 2011)

Bronte said:


> Why are men feeling the need to 'prove' that they are on message.


 
Exactly !
Rio ferdinand coming out on twitter lambasting them saying there is no place for sexism in sport was embarrassing.

He clearly did that just to get a few brownie points.

Keys himself pulled Rio up on it yesterday in his interview on radio 5 - and rightly so in my book.
That would have annoyed the crap out of me if i was keys/gray.

What a sniveller Rio is. I have definitely lost respect for that guy.


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## zxcvbnm (27 Jan 2011)

Latrade said:


> Who knows whether they qualified the "offside" comment with the fact that most male assistants (and football pundits) don't understand the rule either?


 
Well to be fair i think we can all assume that they didn't follow it up with that going by the tone they used. You won't get much support on that point.

And also - I'm not sure where you're going claiming that most male assistants and football pundits don't understand the ofside rule.It is pretty straightforward.

I would in fact say with absolute confidence that 100% of male assistants and football pundits fully understand the offside rule.


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## DB74 (27 Jan 2011)

Good points there The Banker


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## Latrade (27 Jan 2011)

Ah Rio Ferdinand who said the pair were prehistoric. I presume Rio's idea of contemporary man's view on women is relating to the allegations and incidents of "roasting" and escort services that footballers engage in. Or is it the sexist and homophobic music he produces and promotes?

As to "dark forces" I'd agree banker that there is more to it than just this, but I don't feel it's as dark as that. I think the reaction by the Murdoch print media is related to the case and that editorial policy has been to push it, but the incident didn't exist according to Sky News until he was sacked.

I'd say it more likely that the crew genuinely objected to the pair, had possibly had enough and there was an element of whistleblowing. I'd say that this was probably backed up by the new head of Sky Sports who it seems may have been keen on getting in new blood, but obviously didn't just want to let someone go who's on £1.2m a year, much easier when you can get it out in the open that they're a monster.

But the sexisim in the media runs much deeper than just the saucy pictures side. How many of the oh so offended newspapers have female football writers? How many have female pundits? The BBC trialled a female commentator, but she didn't last too long after they got complaints regarding her "shrill voice". How many females have presented Match of the Day? Gabby only gets brought out for very small games late on a Sunday very occasionally.


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## MrMan (27 Jan 2011)

Latrade said:


> Ah Rio Ferdinand who said the pair were prehistoric. I presume Rio's idea of contemporary man's view on women is relating to the allegations and incidents of "roasting" and escort services that footballers engage in. Or is it the sexist and homophobic music he produces and promotes?


 
'discrimination should not happen in our game at all, prehistoric views if you think otherwise' was what he actually said, would you not agree with him??


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## Latrade (27 Jan 2011)

MrMan said:


> 'discrimination should not happen in our game at all, prehistoric views if you think otherwise' was what he actually said, would you not agree with him??


 
Never said I did disagree, what I pointed out is that he isn't exactly one to claim a moral high ground on the issue. Unless I really am out of touch and such examples are considered part of the contemporary view and are perfectly acceptable to him.


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## Sunny (27 Jan 2011)

Latrade said:


> Never said I did disagree, what I pointed out is that he isn't exactly one to claim a moral high ground on the issue. Unless I really am out of touch and such examples are considered part of the contemporary view and are perfectly acceptable to him.


 
Yeah, there is something wrong when people like Stan Collymore are coming out defending women's rights. To be honest, they just came across as sad old men.


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## michaelm (27 Jan 2011)

Holy political correctness Batman.  Gray was stitched up.  Most people (even soccer fans) don't know the offside rule.  I thought this was funny, but perhaps I'm just sexist.





zxcvbnm said:


> He clearly did that just to get a few brownie points.


Had Gray said that he'd probably be accused of racism.


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## johnd (27 Jan 2011)

Maybe Jeremy Clarkson could get them a job on Top Gear. Now that is so macho!!


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## Sunny (27 Jan 2011)

michaelm said:


> Holy political correctness Batman.  Gray was stitched up.  Most people (even soccer fans) don't know the offside rule.  I thought this was funny, but perhaps I'm just sexist.Had Gray said that he'd probably be accused of racism.



It wasnt the worse thing in the world and is another example of media hysteria but they just sounded idiotic. If they had done it in a humorous way, they would have got away with it but they just came across as pitiful. Still wouldn't have sacked them though. Would have made them cover womens soccer for a year!


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## ali (27 Jan 2011)

Tending to agree with the Banker in his post regarding the context here. Also the news of the world and it's fellow rags with their photo of a paedophile on the front page with the headline "Caged Beast" or similar followed by their ads on the back pages for sex lines headed "Barely legal" tell you all you need to know about their firmly held principled view points. 

However, I get sick of the sexist crap too. Off hand throwaway remarks may be commonplace and these particular ones may be unlucky in that they were reported but they happen. All the time. Slag people off on their ability or shortcomings but the gender thing ... surely we should be past that.

A.


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## micmclo (27 Jan 2011)

That's an excellent post from The Banker

Not the first to say it but it's explained very well and makes a lot of sense


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## RMCF (27 Jan 2011)

At the end of the day, who really cares!

We have got rid of 2 of the most irritating TV folk in the world of football. Unfortunately Sky will probably now promote someone like Jamie Redknapp. Blander than bland.

Big money move for Lineker?


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## capall (27 Jan 2011)

Apparently sky used to get in freelance make up artists for their show as regular staff didn't want to work with them
There is a difference between male/female banter and the way these guys behaved. 
Maybe it suited sky to get rid of them but good riddance


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## Leper (27 Jan 2011)

Nice post Banker, banter is banter until somebody deliberately accepts the banter as sexism.  You cannot say much nowadays without offending somebody who wants to be offended.

But, the "hurt" is felt by the receiver whose feelings are taken as gospel in such cases.  Andy Gray stated that he was "stitched up" and somebody somewhere will make a few bob out of this.  Money was made round to go around and like it or not the predator has become the victim.

Having said the above, I can't stand Mr Gray.


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## RMCF (27 Jan 2011)

A very apt clip in this crazy PC world

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cycXuYzmzNg


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## Bronte (28 Jan 2011)

That's very funny RMCF. Don't find Michaelm one funny, don't see the joke but I'm not 'offended'. Coincidentally I've been doing the sticks and stones rhyme for my eldest recently over something that happened at school. I don't want a world where we can't say anything ever for fear of upsetting someone. 

The two guys on SKY who have never been seen by me before  despite being married to a soccer mad man, apologised to the lady in question and she accepted their apology so that really should be the end of it. It wouldn't be anything remotely awful compared to what she's probably hearing from the terraces. Why dont' Sky investigate that. 

Sky it seems to me wanted the guys sacked, otherwise Sky would have not broadcast anything and would have sacked the people who leaked it. So I hope the guy wins his unfair dismissal case.

Also I'm wondering why other news media are not picking up on Sky's motives.


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## MrMan (28 Jan 2011)

Latrade said:


> Never said I did disagree, what I pointed out is that he isn't exactly one to claim a moral high ground on the issue. Unless I really am out of touch and such examples are considered part of the contemporary view and are perfectly acceptable to him.



Giving a view that discrimination in sport is bad is hardly taking the high ground, merely stating the obvious. Music can be interpreted in many ways and what he promotes is part of an accepted industry and there is great demand for it. I'm not aware of any homophobia promoted by him.


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## capall (28 Jan 2011)

Leper said:


> Nice post Banker, banter is banter until somebody deliberately accepts the banter as sexism. You cannot say much nowadays without offending somebody who wants to be offended.
> 
> But, the "hurt" is felt by the receiver whose feelings are taken as gospel in such cases. Andy Gray stated that he was "stitched up" and somebody somewhere will make a few bob out of this. Money was made round to go around and like it or not the predator has become the victim.
> 
> Having said the above, I can't stand Mr Gray.


 
Ok , if someone lacks the social skills or empathy to distinguish between what a female work colleague would consider banter and what is likely to cause embarrassment ,discomfort or offense ,then my advice is 
IF IN DOUBT LEAVE IT OUT

Some of the comments on this thread are really surprising me
Do people really think for Gray to point to his crotch and ask his female colleague to Tuck it in here , is acceptable behavior at work

In your social life you can choose who you have to associate with , in your work life you often can't. That femeale presenter should not have had to put up with that from Gray


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## Sunny (28 Jan 2011)

capall said:


> In your social life you can choose who you have to associate with , in your work life you often can't. That femeale presenter should not have had to put up with that from Gray


 
No but she could have complained if it was a problem. If every bit of inappropriate office conversation was printed or shown on tv, there would be no room for any other stories. I don't think anyone is defending the idiots but the fact remains that it is odd that these clips were suddenly released into the national media. It does like someone was waiting for a chance to take them down. They are no loss to tv but they will be back in work in 6 months.


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## Latrade (28 Jan 2011)

MrMan said:


> Giving a view that discrimination in sport is bad is hardly taking the high ground, merely stating the obvious. Music can be interpreted in many ways and what he promotes is part of an accepted industry and there is great demand for it. I'm not aware of any homophobia promoted by him.


 
Of course he is, he's taking a stance that the views of Gray and Keys was prehistoric and the implication being that his views are more open and progressive. 

Music can be interpreted in many ways if it is indeed deliberately vague or allegorical. However, aspects of modern R&B and rap are neither vague or allegorical and are overtly sexist and homophobic. Even at a minimum the endemic culture of treating women as sexual objects in that genre is in my opinion far more odious than questioning a woman's ability to run the line effectively. 

In addition, there are at least three incidents where Rio has engaged in "roasting" and you can hardly suggest that this is a positive attitude to women as equals. 

It's all well and good stating sexism has no place in sport when it would appear that you are part of the culture promulgating and continuing the sexist culture.


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## Latrade (28 Jan 2011)

Sunny said:


> No but she could have complained if it was a problem.


 
Unless of course the culture at the station was that she felt unable to complain or that any compaint would effect her career.


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## Caveat (28 Jan 2011)

Latrade said:


> In addition, there are at least three incidents where Rio has engaged in "roasting" and you can hardly suggest that this is a positive attitude to women as equals.


 
I think this is a bit of red herring. As long as it concerns willing participants I don't think it should be regarded as a reflection of anything other than a high sex drive or a degree of exhibitionism.


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## Bronte (28 Jan 2011)

Caveat said:


> I think this is a bit of red herring. As long as it concerns willing participants I don't think it should be regarded as a reflection of anything other than a high sex drive or a degree of exhibitionism.


 
Much like Wayne Rooney then?   And sure the wife doesn't mind.


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## Caveat (28 Jan 2011)

Oh  he's married then? 

 My bad. 

I shouldn't comment about sportspeople at all really as I know very little about this world of morons, thugs and adulterers.


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## MrMan (28 Jan 2011)

Latrade said:


> Of course he is, he's taking a stance that the views of Gray and Keys was prehistoric and the implication being that his views are more open and progressive.
> 
> Music can be interpreted in many ways if it is indeed deliberately vague or allegorical. However, aspects of modern R&B and rap are neither vague or allegorical and are overtly sexist and homophobic. Even at a minimum the endemic culture of treating women as sexual objects in that genre is in my opinion far more odious than questioning a woman's ability to run the line effectively.
> 
> ...



Your talking about aspects of an entire genre of music, but you're not being specific. Seeing women as objects of sexual desire and stating such is hardly a crime, if anything it is just honesty, it doesn't actually mean that women are viewed as nothing more than sexual objects of desire.
As for Rios alleged penchant for roasting, it is a sexual act between consenting adults, so what?


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## Latrade (28 Jan 2011)

MrMan said:


> Your talking about aspects of an entire genre of music, but you're not being specific. Seeing women as objects of sexual desire and stating such is hardly a crime, if anything it is just honesty, it doesn't actually mean that women are viewed as nothing more than sexual objects of desire.
> As for Rios alleged penchant for roasting, it is a sexual act between consenting adults, so what?


 
Alleged, but caught on camera...several times.  

And I now give up and bow out. If I am the only person who is of the opinion that the endemic culture in football of girls on tap, group sessions with "de lads", videoing and sending on such videos to mates, rampant use of prostitutes, as not indicative of viewing women in a less than equal way, then I shall remain alone in thinking Ferdinand as part of the cultural problem in football and not one to comment.


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## ali (29 Jan 2011)

Latrade said:


> Alleged, but caught on camera...several times.
> 
> And I now give up and bow out. If I am the only person who is of the opinion that the endemic culture in football of girls on tap, group sessions with "de lads", videoing and sending on such videos to mates, rampant use of prostitutes, as not indicative of viewing women in a less than equal way, then I shall remain alone in thinking Ferdinand as part of the cultural problem in football and not one to comment.


 
You're not alone in thinking that. What bothers me most is that society  are still rearing female children to think that sleeping with a footballer is a career move. More prevalent across the water granted. 

A.


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## MrMan (29 Jan 2011)

Latrade said:


> Alleged, but caught on camera...several times.
> 
> And I now give up and bow out. If I am the only person who is of the opinion that the endemic culture in football of girls on tap, group sessions with "de lads", videoing and sending on such videos to mates, rampant use of prostitutes, as not indicative of viewing women in a less than equal way, then I shall remain alone in thinking Ferdinand as part of the cultural problem in football and not one to comment.



I didn't watch the tapes so can't comment, but either way it doesn't change what it is; consensual sex. 
To describe Ferdinand as part of a cultural problem for what he got up to as a young man is hardly fair, but people are very quick to pass judgement on what is perceived as a sport full of dumb, crass, deviants.


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## Purple (29 Jan 2011)

I don't like Andy Grey or Sky Sports commentators in general. I don't know enough about soccer-ball to comment (though I do understand the off-side rule as it’s really simple) but if they are bad and as biased as their colleagues commentating on rugby then they are dire.
That said I agree with The Banker; it was a stitch-up.


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## thedaras (31 Jan 2011)

Looks like its not just Sky that has a problem..
http://www.thejournal.ie/rte-sports-female-faces-sexism-is-rife-in-irish-tv-2011-01/


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