# Work Injury, employer stopped wages, forcing return to work



## Nickii (26 May 2009)

I suffered a back injury, as a result of a fall, at work last year in a pharmaceutical plant.  I was taken to EHA (their private doctors) by them and seen by their doctor.  Despite my crippling pain, they were on the phone at 7.30 the following morning trying to get a taxi to take me to work (all to do with their accident statistics no doubt). To make a long story short I saw a number of consultants at my gp's request (and theirs). The MRI showed clearly the damage done to my back and I am still receiving Injections at CUH for treatment.  I have worked there for 12 years. My employers ceased my wages after 8 weeks and I had to live on illness benefit since.  Having 2 children, it has not been easy.  We do have an insurance policy at work with Irish Life, that if one is injured or ill, they would be entitled to at least 2/3 of their wages.  To date I have received nothing. I now have a solicitor and PIAB involved and my employer is making things as difficult as possible.  I have asked them "in the event of the injections working, what lighter duties they could offer me".  They have not responded to this.  All I get is harrassment and letters from HR demanding me to return to EHA to be reassessed. They state "if we dont hear back from you by such a date, we will consider terminating your contract".  Copies of my monthly medical certs are sent into them each month clearly stating my incapacity for work. I know at this stage, they want me "out" as it does not look good for them.  How far more can they push me.  I am completely stressed out from all this and have to take Xanax and sleeping tablets for some relief.  Can they terminate my contract if I am not fit to return to EHA.  If I did return to EHA, I know they would demene me so much, as they did the last time I visited.  Can anyone offer me more advice ?  Has anyone else gone through something like this ?


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## Mpsox (26 May 2009)

1: you need to check the terms of your contract, employers are under no legal obligation to pay you if you are off sick and it's possible that ceasing paying you after 8 weeks may be in line with what you signed up for

2: I don't understand why you won't go to their doctor? By not going you are simply strengthening their case if they do move to dismissal. They can show they are trying to be "caring" employers and you did not pay ball

3: re the Irish life fund, most companies will deduct statutory sick pay from any such payments and some companies(my own included) pay 2/3s of salary minus twice statutory sick pay. Again, you should read the small print of your contract. I have to say, when dealing with a similer sitiuation in the past for an employee,  I found Irish Life far from efficient

4: yes, the can let you go, my understanding is that an employer has no legal obligation to hold a job open for someone indefinately if they cannot physically return to work, nor are they obliged to create a job on lighter duties if none exisits. Many will make the effort but not all.

5;in relation to the accident, was it your fault or your employers fault or both? 

6: Make sure anything you have said to your employers is either in writing or if you have conversations over the phone, follow it up with a letter confirming what you said


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## BoscoTalking (26 May 2009)

I concur with everything that previous poster has said. 

go to see their doctor as well as your own .

The fact that you have requested light duties and this has been refused will stand to you regarding recent HSA occ health moves on the issue. Ask the guys in EHA about returning to work and get them to recommend it - which they will as one of the owners of the practice has lectured about at lenght  - the importance of reintroduction to work slowly and then back to full health within 6-8 weeks usually.


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## mathepac (26 May 2009)

Nickii,

First off sorry to hear of your difficulties.

Secondly, it might be possible for your employers to identify you from the details you give. Could I suggest you change the names of the occupational health doctors' practice, hospital, insurance company and the industrial sector your employer is in.


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## Nickii (26 May 2009)

Thank you for your replies.  Even though I am a full time employee, I have never seen a copy of my contract, can I request this in writing from them ?  I understand employers are under no obligation to pay whilst out on sick leave.  I have gone to their doctor but left in tears.  They are a "click", all working together.  In relation to the accident, it was their fault.  They were in breach of about 20 safety regulations and they know that 100%. PIAB have already issued them with an "Authorisation" for the high court.  They are so powerful, and its me against them.  They have made me feel so low and my confidence is almost gone.  I physically do not have the strength or the will to do what I could before.  This company is a very different place now to what it was when I started many years ago.  I have no idea how they get away with treating some colleagues the way they do.  My colleagues are behind me 100% and are all aware of the situation and how badily I have been treated since the accident. Everything has been documented and I have emailed their investigation team in the States also, to keep them in the loop.  It is evident that I am not fit to return to work yet.  When the time comes, I have no doubt they will make life as difficult as possible for me and after all thats been "said" (having PIAB involved and solicitors) they will want me "out" and will do what they can regarding dismissal regardless.  Can I request to see a copy of my contract ?


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## Murt10 (26 May 2009)

Have you also applied for Disablement Benefit from the Department of Social Welfare? It would, if allowed, be payable in addition to disability benefit, which I assume you are currently on.

http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Schemes/Il...njuries/DisablementBenefit/Pages/disable.aspx

I assume that you claimed Occupational Injury Benefit after the accident.

http://www.welfare.ie/syndicatedcon...yments/disability-and-illness/injury_benefit/

These schemes are completely seperate from any civil action you may be taking. Even if you havn't already applied, it's not too late to apply now.




Murt


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## Nickii (26 May 2009)

Yes, I am in receipt of the Disablement Benefit from Social Welfare as well as the illness benefit.  I saw Social Welfare doctors and they based the amount on a being a certain percentage worse off than a normal person would be - thanks


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## Complainer (26 May 2009)

Nickii said:


> Thank you for your replies.  Even though I am a full time employee, I have never seen a copy of my contract, can I request this in writing from them ?  I understand employers are under no obligation to pay whilst out on sick leave.  I have gone to their doctor but left in tears.  They are a "click", all working together.  In relation to the accident, it was their fault.  They were in breach of about 20 safety regulations and they know that 100%. PIAB have already issued them with an "Authorisation" for the high court.  They are so powerful, and its me against them.  They have made me feel so low and my confidence is almost gone.  I physically do not have the strength or the will to do what I could before.  This company is a very different place now to what it was when I started many years ago.  I have no idea how they get away with treating some colleagues the way they do.  My colleagues are behind me 100% and are all aware of the situation and how badily I have been treated since the accident. Everything has been documented and I have emailed their investigation team in the States also, to keep them in the loop.  It is evident that I am not fit to return to work yet.  When the time comes, I have no doubt they will make life as difficult as possible for me and after all thats been "said" (having PIAB involved and solicitors) they will want me "out" and will do what they can regarding dismissal regardless.  Can I request to see a copy of my contract ?


It wouldn't be a huge surprise that their doctors are 'working together' with them. Like it or not, some people do try to scam their employers, so employers need to have doctors available to test out such claims. The question is whether their doctors assessed you fairly?

If there are safety breaches involved, you should consider involving the Health & Safety Authority.


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## Latrade (26 May 2009)

I fully sympathise with your situation, but there are certain aspects that you may need to consider. This isn't to defend an employer, I don't have all the facts in order to make a judgement one way or the other on that, just as with everything there are two sides to these issues. 

Firstly, while it is difficult to do this, the issue of the work-related accident and you absence from work are two separate issues. I know they are linked, but procedurally, they are separate. The absence from work is managed and handled as any other absence irrespective of how it is caused. We may feel we are owed more consideration and flexibility, but this isn't always possible and an employer has to be careful what president they set. They have a policy and they have to follow it. 

This may give the impression of an uncaring or inconsiderate employer, but they have to make sure they follow their systems.

Next is that there is only a limited amount of "protected leave" in any statute. That is maternity leave and annual leave. Everything else has no statute to back up proper procedure or protection, it comes down to what is contracted.

You say you have never seen a contract of employment and I have no reason to doubt that. It isn't that uncommon that employees who have been with their employer for a number of years weren't provided with a contract as we would today. However, this doesn't mean the policies and procedures don't apply. It might make it messy, but depending on certain circumstances they could still apply.

One question could be did you ever sign anything related to pay and conditions, it might have been included there. Additionally, if there is union recognition, the employer may have agreed a change to contracts or terms and conditions of employment through common agreement and a union vote. Lots and lots of potential permutations to say that the absence policy is valid.

At the moment, you have a note from your GP or specialist to say you aren't fit for work. The employer is within its right to seek a second opinion on this. I presume that because you are still absent, their doctor hasn't disagreed to a significant extent the decision of your GP. However, at every review stage or renewal of a sick note, you employer is within their rights to get that second opinion. So I would expect that if you reissue a sick cert, you will be asked to report to their doctor. It isn't unreasonable, though it might seem harsh and unfair, it is established within Labour Courts as being fair.

Again it might be hard to separate the cause of your injury and the absence, but injury and sickness are not protected leave. Most employers have a reasonable time limit of continuous (not continual) absence from work. At the end of that period they are within their rights to determine if you are fit to complete your contract of employment. Harsh, I know and especially in the circumstances, but in within the remit of the law they are two separate issues and leave following an accident is not protected.

So it is possible that your suspicions are true, but from an employer's prospective they cannot keep a job open indefinitely and have no obligation to do so. However, in your favour is if there are lighter duties that could be done, this may work for both sides and as you say could be discussed with the employer and yours/their doctor. In addition, in your favour is the aspect that some injuries are seen as a "disability" under equality legislation. As such, if you wish to return and there are other, lighter, duties available, then your employer may be required to make reasonable accommodation for you. 

I'm not trying to preach or take sides on the issue, it's just that your employer does have to follow a certain set standard and procedure. In light of how you were injured which led to the absenteeism, it could seem harsh and unjust, but irrespective of that the policy has to be followed. It's not always the case that the employer is trying to get rid of you or harassing you. 

The aspect of what caused the accident and where fault lies is, I'm afraid, irrelevant in terms of your absence from work. That’s a matter for the PIAB, or as seems likely now, the courts. I can't comment on that issue.


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## Mpsox (26 May 2009)

Nickii said:


> Thank you for your replies. Even though I am a full time employee, I have never seen a copy of my contract, can I request this in writing from them ? I understand employers are under no obligation to pay whilst out on sick leave. I have gone to their doctor but left in tears. They are a "click", all working together. In relation to the accident, it was their fault. They were in breach of about 20 safety regulations and they know that 100%. PIAB have already issued them with an "Authorisation" for the high court. They are so powerful, and its me against them. They have made me feel so low and my confidence is almost gone. I physically do not have the strength or the will to do what I could before. This company is a very different place now to what it was when I started many years ago. I have no idea how they get away with treating some colleagues the way they do. My colleagues are behind me 100% and are all aware of the situation and how badily I have been treated since the accident. Everything has been documented and I have emailed their investigation team in the States also, to keep them in the loop. It is evident that I am not fit to return to work yet. When the time comes, I have no doubt they will make life as difficult as possible for me and after all thats been "said" (having PIAB involved and solicitors) they will want me "out" and will do what they can regarding dismissal regardless. Can I request to see a copy of my contract ?


 
of course you can request to see a copy of your contract.

in relation to your comment that it is evident to your employers that you are not fit to return to work, sorry to say but it actually isn't evident to them as you have not followed the relevant procedures and gone to their doctor. If you are not satisfied with their doctors performances then there are formal complaints procedures you can follow, perhaps for example to the medical council. However, unless your solicitor advises otherwise, I'd suggest you go and ask to see a copy of whatever report they do afterwards.

the fact that your colleagues are 100% behind you is nice on a personal basis but irrelevant to your legal position.


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## Nickii (26 May 2009)

[FONT=&quot]Thanks for your replies.  I understand what you are saying.  I wasn't aware there were [/FONT]formal complaints procedures that could be followed, to the medical council[FONT=&quot].  I did see their doctor and he is occupational health advisor to the Health and Safety Authority and he declined to comment if it was reported to Health & Safety.  [/FONT][FONT=&quot]They have requested I return again to see him, but my previous experience was horriffic with him.  [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot] I have also been assessed by their Loss Adjusters and the Irish Life Medical Team, who clearly saw the injury sustained. [/FONT][FONT=&quot] To me, it does seem they are working "together".   I never remember signing anything regarding pay & conditions, although there must be something on file. 
[/FONT]


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## Mpsox (26 May 2009)

Nickii said:


> [FONT=&quot]Thanks for your replies. I understand what you are saying. I wasn't aware there were [/FONT]formal complaints procedures that could be followed, to the medical council[FONT=&quot]. I did see their doctor and he is occupational health advisor to the Health and Safety Authority and he declined to comment if it was reported to Health & Safety. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]They have requested I return again to see him, but my previous experience was horriffic with him. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]I have also been assessed by their Loss Adjusters and the Irish Life Medical Team, who clearly saw the injury sustained. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]To me, it does seem they are working "together". I never remember signing anything regarding pay & conditions, although there must be something on file. [/FONT]


 
I can't see how they would be working together, the insurers will want you to return to work to reduce their costs, the employers may actually prefer you not to so that the insurers pay you going forward and not them. My experience of this in the past has been of actual conflict between insurers and employers and not conspiracy

Incidentally, the company has a legal obligation to report an accident of this nature to the HSA. Might be worth checking with them or getting your solicitor to do so to see if they have


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