# Would i need to pay water rates?



## samanthajane (12 Mar 2009)

I'm currently a mobile hairdresser and was considering the option of having a little salon in my house as well as being mobile for people that lived within my area.

High street salons i know have to pay water rates, would i need to do that as well. How do they charge you? Is it a monthy rate or do then charge you say X amount for each litre/gallon ect. Only a percentage would be used for the business. How would they calculate this?

Tried looking everywhere for this information and can find nothing relating to it.


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## Armada (12 Mar 2009)

Normally the water is metered with an annual standing rental charge for the actual meter. A domestic water allowance is credited to your account... in other words you get a certain amount of water "free" for domestic usage. 

After that then each cubic metre(?) is chargeable. Remember you are also charged for sewerage/water being disposed of too. This charge is higher. I am billed yearly from my local council. I have just paid for 2008.

Hope this helps.


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## samanthajane (12 Mar 2009)

hi armada, thanks for the reply. If you dont mind could you tell me what you paid for the year? Do you have a salon at home as well? I'm just trying to figure out if it would be worth me doing this or not. 

Thanks


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## murphaph (12 Mar 2009)

We have a mixed domestic/commercial property and we just had them install the meter so that only the commercial water passes through it. I assume if you are setting up a salon at home you'll be getting a certain amount of plumbing work done anyway-could be less complicated to leave provision for the meter to only meter your actual commercial use (unless the allowance is particularly generous).


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## samanthajane (12 Mar 2009)

Murphaph could you give me details on who you go to to get this organised. Would it be the council? I looked on their website and found nothing. That would probably be a better option for me just to get charged for the water i actually used, I cant see them being that generous and i dont plan to expand and have people working for me it would only be me, so i would only need 1 basin, and 1 sink. 

I'll have to ask in the plumbing section how much of a job it would be to do all the plumbing. I haven't looked into that yet, didn't want to waste anyones time getting prices if i wasn't 100% going to go through with it.

Also does anyone know if there are any other expenses i might have to pay out? I'm not talking about taxes and vat, just things similar to the water rates ect i cant think of anything else but just want to make sure i have everything covered.

Thanks


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## murphaph (12 Mar 2009)

Well it was easy in our case because the water main passes through the domestic property and the commercial water is tapped off and fed to a commercial unit. The meter was simply installed by SMC (I think) who were contracted by South Dublin CC to install the meters in commercial sites in 2007. They just asked us where we wanted the meter and we showed them. If you have it all ready you can just tell the contractor that you want the meter in x location and they'll put it there. It doesn't go outside in the ground like you'll see in the UK or anything like that.


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## Armada (12 Mar 2009)

Hi, 

No I don't actually have a salon at home (more is the pity!!) but I do have a commercial - part residential property. I think the charges vary from county to county a bit like refuse charges.

In our area water charges can be anything from €400 to maybe €10k depending on usage. A restaurant/ deli (daytime) I know of pays somewhere around €7 to 8k annually. Think murphaph's idea of seperate metering is the way to go for you. Btw , My meter is outside my premises on a footpath,given easy access to the council to read it. All metered properties in our area are the same.

Some other hidden charges for you possibly IMRO and PPI... for playing the radio.


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## murphaph (12 Mar 2009)

samanthajane said:


> Also does anyone know if there are any other expenses i might have to pay out? I'm not talking about taxes and vat, just things similar to the water rates ect i cant think of anything else but just want to make sure i have everything covered.
> 
> Thanks


Don't forget that by using a portion of your principal private residence for business use that you will be subject to at least a proportion of capital gains tax should you make a profit on the sale of your home. 

You'll also need public liability insurance and your regular buildings policy probably excludes the running of any business so you'd need to upgrade that to cover commercial visitors to your home and other risks, and you'll need planning permission for change of use from residential to commercial for that part of your home. This shouldn't be a problem for a small enterprise-lots of people do this sort of thing.


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## samanthajane (12 Mar 2009)

Thanks guys... so to re-cap and make sure i understand this,

You say a company was contracted by south dublin CC, so would i need to go to my council (fingal) and use who ever they contract to do the jobs. How much does this actually cost? If i rang the council would they be able to tell me what the water rates are. 

I have 2 big square things in my back garden( sorry for the description i cant think what they are called lol ) Woud that be the main water supply? 

Oh god capital gains tax...... thats like asking me about necular physics. I notice you said "should" i make a profit. At this rate i doubt it. 

I know about everything else apart from the planning permission, though i thought you only needed this if you were building.......another thing for me to get info on. They certainly dont make this easy do they.


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## murphaph (12 Mar 2009)

No, planning permission is required for a "material change of use" of a building or part of a building. 

As regards the meters...they were installed free by SDCC during that period. I don't know if that was for a set time. I'd just call Fingal CC and ask "how do I go about getting a commercial water meter installed?"


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## samanthajane (13 Mar 2009)

Armada said:


> Hi,
> 
> Some other hidden charges for you possibly IMRO and PPI... for playing the radio.


 

For some reason this didn't register with me the first time i read it, only after reading it again did i think eh,........

You have to pay to listen to the radio??? Who do you have to pay??? What if i just listen put on cd's that i have already brought ( actually cant do that download everything, so didn't actually buy them...oops ) 

How much is this?  My god you get billed for everything.

Is this just for businsses or everyone, cause i dont pay anything for my radio in my car, ( another opps am i meant to )  i know you have a telly licence but a radio licence.....


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## samanthajane (13 Mar 2009)

I hope it's still free.....i will ring them in the morning and enquire about it. Thanks again for all your help murphaph x


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## Armada (13 Mar 2009)

Wherever you have background music playing in a public/salon area these licences are needed.

IMRO are the Irish Music Rights Org. and PPI are (and someone please correct me if I am wrong) The Phonographic Performance Ireland.

It does not matter whether you are playing the radio or CDs it seems. A payment towards royalties for the artists is due. Why there are 2 bodies owed I don't know?

Someone once told me to say you were only listening to the radio for news purposes. I tried it but it did n't work I think the minimum payment to IMR0 is about €100 per year and €150 to PPI. Not sure exactly though.


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## bullworth (13 Mar 2009)

Armada said:


> Wherever you have background music playing in a public/salon area these licences are needed.
> 
> IMRO are the Irish Music Rights Org. and PPI are (and someone please correct me if I am wrong) The Phonographic Performance Ireland.
> 
> ...




what about playing soothing classical music at a low volume ? surely theres no copyright fees for this kind of music ?


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## murphaph (13 Mar 2009)

As long as the composers are all long dead so no modern classical! 

For the OP....you will also probably require a fire safety certificate with your change of use. This can cost a couple of grand. You should ask fingal CC if you'll need one or not and do that in writing!


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## samanthajane (13 Mar 2009)

Armada said:


> A payment towards royalties for the artists is due .


 
Have they only started this payment since this all the downloading began? 

2k for a fire safety certificate...... oh i hope i dont need one of these.


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## Armada (13 Mar 2009)

samanthajane said:


> Have they only started this payment since this all the downloading began?
> 
> 
> No these licences have been around for years. The old classical music could be a good idea but I would imagine you would need something more uptempo in a hair salon.
> ...


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## samanthajane (13 Mar 2009)

i starting to think that this isn't going to be such a good idea. I want to reasonable with my prices and with all these extra things that i'll have to pay for i dont think i would make the money to cover them. Think for now i'll just stick to being mobile and mayb think of it again in the future. 

Thanks for all the info even if it wasn't what i wanted to hear.


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## Armada (13 Mar 2009)

It probably depends what kind of an area you are in. I guess if you are on an estate you could run into problems with neighbours etc..

Maybe if you did not advertise the salon you might be able to test it out a while before paying out.

In my book though I reckon it is far better to start properly and legally.


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## samanthajane (13 Mar 2009)

If i didn't advertise i wouldn't get any business, dont really know that many people in the area, i do friends and family but i'm already doing them and it wouldn't be enough to keep me going. With everyone fighting for business at the moment even if i advertised a little bit to see what response i got i'm sure another salon wouldn't be too impressed at possibly losing business to me and would make a point of finding out if i was 100% legal and above aboard. And i cant really pay to get everything installed to find out a few weeks later it's not going to be worth my while.

I think if i carry on as mobile and build up a client list within my area then eventually i might be able to do this.

This was an idea to save me money and time not having to travel to other people's homes to do their hair, but i think i'd be better off just czrrying on as i am.

But i least i know what i need to do and pay for if/when i decide that it worth be worth my while.


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## z103 (13 Mar 2009)

> i starting to think that this isn't going to be such a good idea.


In summary:
 - Water rates
 - Sewage/water disposal
 - IMRO
 - PPI
 - Public liability insurance
 - Upgrade buildings insurance
 - Fire safety certificate
 - Capital gains tax on portion of property used for business (If profit made on house sale)
 - Commercial rates
 - Safety statement for insurances

Also, not mentioned:
 - If 'S' class self employed, loss of PAYE tax credit
 - If 'S' class self employed, loss of social welfare benefits
 - Accountancy costs

All this to set up a hair dressing salon. Heaven help you if you ever decide to employ someone, or set up a limited company!


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## samanthajane (13 Mar 2009)

hey your list is neater than mine lol i have scraps of paper with bits jotted down all over the place.

Heaven help me indeed.........And this was just in my own home!!!! Now everyone knows why salons charge so much.

I had a limited company before with my ex but we never had to pay out all these expenses, we had 1 little desk in the front room and that was it. A whole different ball game this time around. All i want to do is earn a living!!


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## Armada (13 Mar 2009)

I know this is kind of obvious and maybe not so easy in your area but would you not consider going back to work on the floor in an established salon to (a) be sure of a reliable income and (b) to build a local clientele.

Hairdressing is one business which is not as badly affected in recessionary times as others and a talented sylist with a clientele in tow (your mobile business) is normally welcomed with open arms by any Salon owner.


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## Armada (13 Mar 2009)

In summary:
- Water rates
- Sewage/water disposal
- IMRO
- PPI
- Public liability insurance
- Upgrade buildings insurance
- Fire safety certificate
- Capital gains tax on portion of property used for business (If profit made on house sale)
- Commercial rates
- Safety statement for insurances


And the list goes on...

Stock,
On Going Training, 
Laundry (Towels etc..)
A website perhaps
Electricity and Water Heating.
Subscriptions,


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## samanthajane (13 Mar 2009)

so many problems with that idea, as good as it sounds it's never going to work.

I'm in london at the moment and apart from family and friends ( and the odd neighbour of their's) i dont have a client base at the moment, none of them are going to pay salon prices ( highlights and cut can cost anywhere from 100E to 200E ) when i can do it for 50E and they get the same if not better results from me.

No joke i phone 57 salons all in the north county dublin area and not 1 of them are taking on staff at the moment. I've started looking further afield but with not much joy either. There's a few on the south side but to be realistic i cant travel 2 hrs to and from work each day. I used to have to go to crumlin mon-fri and no matter if i went the port tunnel way or M50 it still took 2 hrs.


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## Armada (13 Mar 2009)

Have you contacted any of the suppliers, Schwarzkopf or Wella for example for the role of technician?


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## samanthajane (13 Mar 2009)

Sorry i dont undersatand what you mean....contact the suppliers?


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## Armada (13 Mar 2009)

Well normally most Suppliers have a technical team working behind their products for salon training etc..

I m sure in your experience you have come across them visiting salons etc.... to educate stylists on new techniques  and products. This can prove to be a nice little job for any stylist as it leaves weekends free to freelance and it also gives you a great insight into other salons and a greater knowledge of salon owners and maybe potential employers.

Might be a long shot but often cover is required short term for maternity leave etc..


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## samanthajane (13 Mar 2009)

That would be more down a teaching role and i wouldn't think i would be anywhere near experienced enough to apply for one of those roles. You would need to have done a lot of their own courses and have years of experience in their products. I have a few years...maybe it is worth looking in to, not what i want to do but like you said it could open other doors for me. It's worth looking in to at least, i hadn't really though of anything like that i was set on doing actual hairdressing, i should really start looking further afeild cause i dont seem to be getting very far at the moment.

Suppliers that are independant like sally's are a joke, I was in their in febuary and a customer was asking question's about different products and the girls in there didn't have a clue ( i had to help the lady out which considering your meant to be in the trade to buy colour and bleach unless your in the trade, so she should of know herself really, good job i knew a bit about L'oreal products or she could of ended up with green highlights lol ) how could they there not hairdressers......thats what i thought you meant at first ( must be all the bleach ) But in saying that at least it would be a job, i could apply there and work mobile outside of those hours, at least i'd be able to give people the correct advice.


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## samanthajane (13 Mar 2009)

sorry forgot to add..... actually i've never actually seen anyone come into a salon and teach us as such. It never happen to me...but i trained at a college not in salon. Usually you'd go away on a course that the salon would pay for, the couple of colour course i did with L'oreal i paid for myself. I should really but i dont know a great deal about other companies, i know L'oreal has a help line lol  New products that have come out in my time have been new colours/shampoo products ect and you wouldn't really need training to use them.


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