# Replace Fireplace Gas boiler



## engine10 (17 Jan 2016)

To set the scene. I live in a small 1930's three bed terrace.
It currently has a gas boiler fronted by a gas fire in the front room. I'd guess it dates from the late 70's. 
I haven't used the fire in years. I haven't used the boiler for nearly a year either, though both have been serviced in the past so they are probably passable for safety.
Gas is currently switched off following a  new meter installation so I need it passed before It gets reconnected.

I want to get the central heating back working and would like to know if I can get a modern version of a boiler to fit in the fireplace? 
I intend to extend & renovate extensively in 3-5 years when I can do the job right and hang a boiler on an outside extension wall and redo all services under floors and kitchen units, but at present I'd like to minimise cost and disturbance for an interim solution.

So the question is, Is it still possible to fit a boiler in a fireplace? 
If so is  a new flue required? 
Could a balanced flue be run up the chimney?
Or should I forget about it and hope to get the current ancient kit passed for another few years?


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## Shane007 (23 Jan 2016)

What you have is probably a Baxi Bermuda or a Gloworm BBU. A lot of people don't like working on them but they really are not that bad. Gas fire has to come off the wall to service the boiler behind it. They have a gauze filter on their air intake that is critically important that it is clean otherwise they have high CO. Even after a proper service they tend to have higher CO than a conventional gas boiler of its era.
Baxi do a condensing version replacement for but the flue is the critical thing as well as the condense discharge.

If you are thinking doing a bigger job in years to come, then I would get somebody with experience in working on them to do a thorough service and set it up correctly and make do with it until you can afford a bigger job. Then blank the pipework and re-pipe from the new boiler location to suit the system. A condensing BBU will cost double the cost of a conventional wall hung condensing boiler. This money would be better spent on re-piping.


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## engine10 (2 Mar 2016)

Thanks Shane, 
Yes my boiler seems to be a Glowworm 240/6 with a Camelot fire. I was holding off replying until I_'_d got the boiler running again so I could cover everything in one post.
Unfortunately it has not been plain sailing.
Gas Networks had previously replaced the meter but couldn't get access to check inside the house so had left the new meter turned off with a notice to call them to arrange access. I phoned them. Arranged to call 27/1/16.
The guy came around and couldn't work out how to access the boiler controls or valve. He said he had done a pressure test on the meter and the supply was fine but he couldn't leave the supply on without checking the boiler/fire.
He left a Hazard notice with an entry at box "C; Hazard gas supply shut off for safety". In Reason box he wrote "Gas isolated as cannot get to valve in boiler". He said I should get someone to check the Boiler and the notice wouldn't prevent that.
So next I phone Electric Ireland to arrange a service call. I told the call-receiver the make and model of the boiler/fire and asked them to check and confirm that have someone who is familiar with this.  They said they'd check with their maintenance, then came back and said yes.
I Arranged call for afternoon 13.30 to 17.30, 19th Feb.

So I take half day and wait.
And wait...
No-one shows up.

In work on Monday I get a call from Electric Ireland. "Did you have a call arranged on Friday?
"Yes".
"The details are on the system but they didn't confirm it". Profuse apologies. (Doubt they forget to debit my card.) 
Guy asks do I want to re-arrange. I ask will anyone show up this time. More apologies.

Re-arrange for 26/2.
Guy shows up. I'm immediately dubious as he looks younger than the boiler. Suspicions confirmed when he sees boiler and appears to have never seen a similar one before. After a brief poke around he gives up and says he needs to call his supervisor. Takes photo of boiler to send.  Comes back in and says boiler model is obsolete and he can't do any more. I explain I specifically asked and got confirmation they could service this model before making appointment.   Guy then says he can't do anything because he can't find the valve to isolate. Then that he can't work because the mains gas is switched off and he's not allowed turn it on.  
He tells me his supervisor will ring me Monday.
No-one has rung Monday or Tuesday.    


At this point I've given up on Electric Ireland, apart from getting my service charge refunded.
However I do need an installer who is familiar with this BBU unit if anyone has any suggestions?


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## Shane007 (2 Mar 2016)

To be honest, I'm not surprised with your experience and more so with their level of expertise.
The cover of the gas fire must be removed to access the gas isolation valve. This is a simple task. The isolation valve is a combined control valve that isolates the boiler and the gas fire but also can isolate them independently also.
In your initial post you stated that you have had it serviced in the past. Can you get the same person back?
What area are you in?


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## engine10 (3 Mar 2016)

Shane, The previous service was a number of years ago through Bord Gais. I doubt they can supply a record of who the service guy was. 
I recall he made no comment on the age of the system and just did the job and finished without any drama.
I am in Rialto, Dublin 8.
As mentioned earlier I asked the E.I. phone person to confirm they could service unit before committing. They said they would confirm, and came back to say they could.
I am now wary of engaging anyone else unless I can confirm directly with the Techie that he knows the unit.


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## Shane007 (8 Mar 2016)

I am very much surprised about the response you are getting. I know there are a lot of RGI's out there that, let's just say, shouldn't be RGI's but surely there are many who can sort your boiler for you. Those units are really not difficult and if they cannot even get the cover off it, then to be honest, I wouldn't want them working on any of my gas appliances.


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## mro (9 Mar 2016)

I have a gas boilder behind a gas firplace. Baxi model and the only people I found to service them was Bord Gais. Anyone else who heard it was a behind a gas fire said they wont do them, including energia our gas supplier. .


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## Shane007 (9 Mar 2016)

mro said:


> I have a gas boilder behind a gas firplace. Baxi model and the only people I found to service them was Bord Gais. Anyone else who heard it was a behind a gas fire said they wont do them, including energia our gas supplier. .



I service Baxi Bermuda's, Glowworm's, etc and they are not an issue. 
Do I like them? No, but only due to their lint arrestors getting blocked and they having an inherent Hugh CO emission even after service. Without a service, their CO can be through the roof.
With regard to servicing them, the only additional work is the removal of the gas fire, a gas fire service and cleaning of the lint arrestor. These tasks are nothing more than what should be expected from any gas service engineer. It would be akin to walking into a non-manufacturer garage and asking them to service your car and the response being "sorry, we don't service those models"!


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## John Gasman (20 Mar 2016)

_I service Baxi Bermuda's, Glowworm's, etc and they are not an issue. 
Do I like them? No, but only due to their lint arrestors getting blocked and they having an inherent Hugh CO emission even after service. Without a service, their CO can be through the roof.
With regard to servicing them, the only additional work is the removal of the gas fire, a gas fire service and cleaning of the lint arrestor. These tasks are nothing more than what should be expected from any gas service engineer. It would be akin to walking into a non-manufacturer garage and asking them to service your car and the response being "sorry, we don't service those models"!
_
What kind of high CO emissions and ratio are you getting on BBU's?


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## Shane007 (21 Mar 2016)

Typically, for standard efficiency boilers, I typically see about 25ppm CO / ratio 0.0005. Perhaps a little higher on some models.

BBU's after a service would be in the region of 90ppm / ratio 0.0018.
Before service I usually find them over 200ppm / ratio 0.004. Permitted legal limit I know is 0.008 (400ppm) but imho this is way too high as at 400ppm in a room, death can occur within 3 to 4 hours of exposure.
This is usually caused by a blocked lint arrester. When cleaned the CO will reduce and ratio becomes safer, however, due to the low distance between the heat exchanger and the burner, flame chilling occurs and thus produces the higher level of CO.

I have a lot of them on my patch that are landlord owned. Annual service is usually missed for many years and when I am called out, they are at dangerous levels, hence my dislike.


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## John Gasman (21 Mar 2016)

_BBU's after a service would be in the region of 90ppm / ratio 0.0018: Where you testing them??_
_
but imho this is way too high as at 400ppm in a room, death can occur within 3 to 4 hours of exposure: Any gas appliance (open flued or room sealed) leaking into a room would be fatal, as CO would build up, and they are flued, like a coal fire 1000's of ppm CO when you put a shovel full of coal on it.
_


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## Shane007 (21 Mar 2016)

So you would be happy leaving a gas boiler connected bellowing out 1,000's of ppm of CO just because it has a flue?

What happens when something goes wrong such as the tenant blocking a draughty vent or a bird builds a nest on the flue terminal?

Limits are there so that when things go wrong, survival rates are actual rates. Without them, there won't be a survival rate.

I presume from your forum name you are an RGI and therefore I would expect you to know you cannot rely on a flue for complete safety.


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## John Gasman (21 Mar 2016)

We weren't taking about 1000s of PPMs? we were taking about something being in the 200-400ppms region.
Your argument applies to all open flued appliances, not just gas ones. (i.e. blocking vents, and birds nests)

A flue leaking in a room at 25ppm will also be fatal, and up to 200ppm and above on some HE boilers.

Where do you combustion test the BBUs?


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## lukegriffen (21 Mar 2016)

mro said:


> I have a gas boilder behind a gas firplace. Baxi model and the only people I found to service them was Bord Gais. Anyone else who heard it was a behind a gas fire said they wont do them, including energia our gas supplier. .


If you're in south Dublin, I have a Baxi &  Gas Services Ltd in Kimmage service them.  Each year I usually ask should I get it replaced, and they all say no, wait til it breaks. But it never breaks


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## Shane007 (21 Mar 2016)

John Gasman said:


> We weren't taking about 1000s of PPMs? we were taking about something being in the 200-400ppms region.
> Your argument applies to all open flued appliances, not just gas ones. (i.e. blocking vents, and birds nests)



TBH I do not wish to take this thread further off topic than you already have but I will answer your questions.

You brought up a similarity of 1,000's ppm with a coal being in a similar situation and it being perfectly safe. The topic and my argument is solely based upon BBU's. If you wish to open a new thread and discuss, I will be happy to do so there and you can categorise all types of appliances all you wish.

I am indeed taking about levels of 200 - 400ppms and the normal running conditions of a BBU. I am treating a BBU differently to all other open flue gas appliances, such as gas fires, DFE's, etc. Because the other appliances do not have a lint arrester on route to the primary air intake. Thus, they do not suffer as much or certainly as quickly as the other O/F appliances. I did mention this in all my previous posts. If you are used to servicing BBU's, you will be in no doubt aware of this issue.

Hence, my honing in this particular issue as I find they barely remain with low levels of CO outside a year of usage and certainly being that, the lint arrester becomes very much restricted, due to induction of air bringing with it carpet lint, dust, pet hair, etc.

With regard to your comment of 25ppm will also be fatal. How so? 100ppm of exposure would only give slight headaches within 4 hours of continuous exposure. A reasonably heavy smoker's breath would produce about 25ppm, so how would a smoker breathing on me fatal. Perhaps their bad breadth might knock me

Finally, not to be giving gas advice on a public forum, I FGA BBU's via the gas fire. As you know there is a flue way from the gas fire through to the boiler flue. I have an adapted probe that fits nicely in and gives me a reading whilst the BBU is running.

You also mentioned higher levels on HE appliances. This is indeed true, but they are forced draught appliances. Excess air is also riding much closer to stoichiometric combustion and therefore the limits are acceptably higher. Down firing HE in particular may have in excess of 200ppm, however G.A.D. lowered their acceptable ratio to 0.004 instead of 0.008. Some manufacturers such as Worchester Bosch and Vokera lowered their limit to below 0.002 and less than 200ppm, otherwise they require to shut them down.
SE appliances such as the BBU are induced draught and therefore work within an excess air of approx 150 - 200%, thus much lower limits should be obtainable. For example, take a very common Vokera Mynute 16e. This would be in the region of 25 - 35ppm. Both equal in their combustion process, both induced draught burners, but one has a lint arrester and a very low heat exchanger. The BBU encourages a higher CO and therefore higher safety ratio and also has a parameter to encourage flame chilling.

As I said in my initial response to the OP, there is nothing wrong with the safety of a BBU as long as the service engineer understands what to watch for, what to clean and the importance of a CO alarm within the room and the need for an annual service.
What the OP has found is that some major gas companies with "experienced" gas engineers ran a mile from the BBU, not even knowing how to take the fire off the unit and one not even knowing how to use the 3-way gas isolation valve.


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## Leo (22 Mar 2016)

Back on topic please...


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## John Gasman (22 Mar 2016)

Hi Leo, thanks for your input.

We're my last posts deleted?
Is it ok to bring this to another thread?

My comments were put here to address incorrect information


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## Leo (22 Mar 2016)

Yes, quite a few posts of no benefit to the OP were removed.

By all means start a new thread.
Leo


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## John Gasman (22 Mar 2016)

Thanks you. 
Apologies for off topic to the OP


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## engine10 (29 Mar 2016)

To update I've got in touch with a local independent RGI who confirmed he could service this BBU unit, and the service was done last Friday. Now the heating is back in business. 

Thanks to all for your helpful comments and advice.


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