# Fair Deal Nursing Home Scheme



## Puzzled (26 Nov 2013)

I am the carer for two elderly relatives who live with me.  I have cared for them exclusively for twenty year and they are now  both in their mid 90's and may soon need nursing home care.  We decided to start the process and applied under the fair deal.  My relatives transferred the house to me about ten years ago but retained rights an privileges for lifetime.  Their only income is state pensions and mine is carers allowance.  My question is because of the rights and privileges can the HSE ask me to pay 7.5% of the value of my house for each.  At the time of transfer the house was valued at E 125,000 but was in very bad repair.  I took out a mortgage and refurbshed the house to the value of about E100,000.  I am very concerned as this was my entire life savings and I was hoping that the house would be my security for the future.  My own health is now deteriorating and it is becoming increasingly difficult to continue in role of carer.


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## STEINER (26 Nov 2013)

Family have done the fair deal scheme a few months back for one relative. My understanding of your case is that they transferred the house to you ten years back and as they don't own the house anymore, it is irrelevant.  I think its only if they transferred assets in the last 5 years, that they are brought back into the reckoning so to speak. 

Thats a quick answer. It is great that your relatives are long lived. Two of my 90's something relatives passed away this year only.


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## Sue Ellen (26 Nov 2013)

Hi Puzzled,

Welcome to AAM.

[broken link removed] booklet should give you some good advice.  There is some more information available [broken link removed]  Citizens Information may help also.

Most people would appear to opt for the State Support option which does not involve a loan on the house.

Both of your relatives will need to be assessed by a Care Needs Assessment as it identifies whether or not they need long-term nursing home care.

I understand that there are extremely long waiting lists for people who are not in hospital and if your relatives are a couple and need a double room it may slow things down further.

With regard to the family home I note the first book that I linked to above shows this on page 5:

Income and assets:
Income includes any earnings, pension income, social welfare benefits/ allowances, rental income, income from holding an office or directorship, income from fees, commissions, dividends or interest, or any income which you have deprived yourself of in the 5 years leading up to your application.

Best of luck with your endeavours to secure the nursing home places as it can be a stressful time.


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## Puzzled (26 Nov 2013)

Thank you both for your replies. I agree it is great to get to that age.  I understand the 5 year rule but my concern relates to the fact that even though the property was transferred to me 10 years ago, my relatives still have rights and privileges for life and my fear is the Hse will use this clause against me and expect me to pay. There is a question on the application relating to rights and privilege on principle residence. However, there is nothing to explain in the manual what this means. If anyone can clarify I'd appreciate.


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## twofor1 (27 Nov 2013)

Puzzled said:


> There is a question on the application relating to rights and privilege on principle residence. .


 
Hi Puzzled,

Can you point to exactly where on the application form this question is asked.


[broken link removed]


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## Black Sheep (28 Nov 2013)

Have read the form also and can't find that question


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## Puzzled (28 Nov 2013)

You are right there is nothing on that application form regarding rights. Initially I submitted that form but a week later they sent me a few more pages to complete and the reference to rights and privileges was in one of the questions. I had to call them to find out exactly what they wanted me to do as all of the questions were non applicable.  At that stage they also asked me to send them a copy of the deeds of my property.  The reason they gave for the request was they needed confirmation that the family home was actually in my name and dates of transfer.  However, evidence of rights and privilege also appear on the deeds. I would like to know if anyone else has gone through the process and what was the outcome.  I am worried that the HSE may say because my relatives have life rights to live at home any periods spent in nursing homes must be paid for at 7.5% per annum. If that was to happen it would put a lean on the property.


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## Sue Ellen (28 Nov 2013)

Puzzled said:


> I am worried that the HSE may say because my relatives have life rights to live at home any periods spent in nursing homes must be paid for at 7.5% per annum.



Which, if they did get to apply it, would be for a maximum of 3 years = 22.5% total.


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## Puzzled (28 Nov 2013)

Would that be 22.5% per person?  My relatives are sisters not husband and wife.


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## Black Sheep (28 Nov 2013)

While the booklet recommended by Sue Ellen is out of date i.e(home assessed at 5% or total 15%) it does state (section 4) the "The assessment will not take into account the means of relatives".


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## Puzzled (28 Nov 2013)

Thank you for your help in trying to clarify this. It is a pity that the forms are designed in such a way. For issues as important and as emotive as your money there should be no room for ambiguity. Thanks again.


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## twofor1 (29 Nov 2013)

Puzzled said:


> Would that be 22.5% per person? My relatives are sisters not husband and wife.


 
If 2 persons own a house jointly, then they only own half a house each, so the 22.5% of total house value would be for both.

I’m not familiar with this rights and privilege issue, hopefully when they see it’s your house for the past 10 years it will have no bearing on your relations application and contribution.

It might be useful to others to know the outcome.


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## theroux (18 Mar 2014)

Any update on the outcome of this?

Id like to know the rules regarding the relative having a right to live in the home which they do not own. Does that get assessed?


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## Sophrosyne (18 Mar 2014)

Hi Puzzled

When you say that the sisters retained “rights and privileges” do you mean that they simply retained their lifetime right to live in the property or were there further conditions?


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## Slim (19 Mar 2014)

theroux said:


> Any update on the outcome of this?
> 
> Id like to know the rules regarding the relative having a right to live in the home which they do not own. Does that get assessed?


 
No, it does not. as long as the transfer was 5+ years before the application, the value of the property will not be assessed nor will any right of residence.


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## Woodie (19 Mar 2014)

Hi Puzzled, As someone which has gone through the process twice now.  Once with a relative with a property and another where the friend had none.  In both cases I found the HSE very helpful.  Remember you can apply and nothing forces you to accept as there are several stages at which you can pull out.    As I understand it the residence issue is to understand if there are any financial interest in  property so the HSE can assess the assets of the person involved.  If the right of residence is a benefit for the persons lifetime and has no resale value during the person's lifetime nor after they are deceased then I can't see how it will be classified as an asset.


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## Bronte (20 Mar 2014)

similar thread currently running

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=186095


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## Slim (20 Mar 2014)

Woodie said:


> ....If the right of residence is a benefit for the persons lifetime and has no resale value during the person's lifetime nor after they are deceased then I can't see how it will be classified as an asset.


 
I would like to clarify as follows:

1. A right of residence is not assessed as means , but

2. A 'Life Interest' is deemed assessable and there is a table to enable the HSE calculate the value of that.


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## Woodie (20 Mar 2014)

Slim said:


> 2. A 'Life Interest' is deemed assessable and there is a table to enable the HSE calculate the value of that.



Hi Slim, that is interesting.  Do you mean by "interest" an element of lifetime ownership rights or something else?  Is there a link to where this is outlined and the associated table?  Or can you elaborate in an example?


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## Slim (20 Mar 2014)

Woodie said:


> Hi Slim, that is interesting. Do you mean by "interest" an element of lifetime ownership rights or something else? Is there a link to where this is outlined and the associated table? Or can you elaborate in an example?


 
I'm afraid I can't as I am getting this info from an expert in the Fair Deal scheme. The HSE has been provided with a table by the Department of Health to calculate the value. It seems that someone is splitting hairs here but that is the scheme.


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## theroux (20 Mar 2014)

Slim said:


> I'm afraid I can't as I am getting this info from an expert in the Fair Deal scheme. The HSE has been provided with a table by the Department of Health to calculate the value. It seems that someone is splitting hairs here but that is the scheme.




I spoke to the HSE and they confirmed what you are saying. They said they would not look at the asset if it is just a "right of residence" but would consider it if it is a "life interest"

I asked for elaboration on the definition of these terms and she said that with a right of residence the person is not entitled to any thing when the property is sold (ie has no ownership). Under a life interest the person owns a portion of the property and is thus entitled to a portion of its value under a sale.


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## Woodie (20 Mar 2014)

theroux said:


> I asked for elaboration on the definition of these terms and she said that with a right of residence the person is not entitled to any thing when the property is sold (ie has no ownership). Under a life interest the person owns a portion of the property and is thus entitled to a portion of its value under a sale.



Thanks for that clarification Theroux, it seems logical enough in that case. If there person has a financial stake "interest" in the property  then it obviously is an asset, so fair to be included.  The assumption then would be, that the contribution value will be calculated on that percentage of the asset that is owned by the person seeking the loan under the Fair Deal scheme rather than the whole property.


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## 44brendan (20 Mar 2014)

A life interest is an ownership right on a property and can in theory be sold on. However, a "right of residence" is an impediment on the property and has no independent value!


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