# Irish cases involving Roma children



## DB74 (23 Oct 2013)

I have to say I find both these cases disgraceful and very disturbing.

Alan Shatter should resign as Minister for Justice.


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## blueband (23 Oct 2013)

he doesn't do resigning though...


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## Delboy (23 Oct 2013)

Why should Alan Shatter resign! If you said the head of the HSE or Gardai who organised this screw up should go, then I'd agree with you


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## Sunny (24 Oct 2013)

Not a fan of Shatter but why should he resign? There are some unsettling elements to this case but if the children hadn't been theirs and the Guards and HSE hadn't acted, then you can imagine the reaction. Having said that, the child should not have been removed unless it was in obvious danger and there was never a suggestion of that. Still, if I had to make a call of that nature and I had doubts I would risk removing the child for 24 hours so not going to hang the people involved. 

We are going to see huge national outrage on this topic now but we need to be honest about our own prejudices towards the Roma population before we go looking for villains in this case. I know my attitude towards them is anything but politically correct. I see some national papers are now acting like champions of the Roma people. Be interesting to go back and see some of the stories they have written over the years.


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## Betsy Og (24 Oct 2013)

It appears to me that everyone acted in good faith. I think the protocol should be developed/communicated/enfoirced that dont remove unless danger. You can park a squad car outside the house, take passports etc. if flight risk is an issue.

So it was a bit heavy handed and the family are due an apology and things should be a bit more sensitively dealt with next time but I dont think we should overreact in the other direction - put it this way would you feel the State has traditionally overreacted or underreacted to child welfare issues?

So I dont think anyone needs to resign or have action taken against them.


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## blueband (24 Oct 2013)

I wonder will these two families ask to be transferred to other localites ? hard to see how they could be refused after this.


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## Purple (24 Oct 2013)

I think it's long overdue that the state took a more proactive role in child protection. It is unfortunate that these two cases involved ethnic minorities.


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## The_Banker (24 Oct 2013)

This should result in a good pay off for both families.


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## orka (24 Oct 2013)

Sunny said:


> We are going to see huge national outrage on this topic now ...
> I see some national papers are now acting like champions of the Roma people.


I really don't think either of these reflect the general mood (and perhaps that has something to do with feelings towards the Roma more than the circumstances of this case). Have to say I'm just vexed knowing that there will undoubtedly be a large compensation case following on from this.


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## Delboy (24 Oct 2013)

orka said:


> I really don't think either of these reflect the general mood (and perhaps that has something to do with feelings towards the Roma more than the circumstances of this case). Have to say I'm just vexed knowing that there will undoubtedly be a large compensation case following on from this.



Don't forget the legal profession...they'll clean up out of this also, on all sides.
And the Consultants...there'll be a lot of reports to be written, recommendations to be made (largely ignored after)


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## Time (24 Oct 2013)

This might put a stop to the little hitlers that are social workers in the HSE.


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## Conan (24 Oct 2013)

It's not that long ago that the HSE and Gardai were being lambasted for not acting when there were allegations of children being at risk. 
So in these sort of circumstances, there will always be a risk that whether they act or don't act that they get it wrong. Hindsight is always correct.
So do we now run the risk that the authorities will be less likely to act in future cases, particularly in cases involving Roma, because of the hysterical reaction following these two cases?

As usual now we see Claire Daly wading in. She just cannot pass up any opportunity to have a go at the Gardai.


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## blueband (24 Oct 2013)

Conan said:


> It's not that long ago that the HSE and Gardai were being lambasted for not acting when there were allegations of children being at risk.
> So in these sort of circumstances, there will always be a risk that whether they act or don't act that they get it wrong. Hindsight is always correct.
> So do we now run the risk that the authorities will be less likely to act in future cases, particularly in cases involving Roma, because of the hysterical reaction following these two cases?
> 
> As usual now we see Claire Daly wading in. She just cannot pass up any opportunity to have a go at the Gardai.


I wonder why?


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## Grizzly (25 Oct 2013)

[broken link removed]

According to what is circulating in UCD.


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## Vanessa (26 Oct 2013)

No one who has never made a mistake never made anything. If they left the child there and the family left the country they authorities would have been criticised too.


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## Knuttell (26 Oct 2013)

Conan said:


> It's not that long ago that the HSE and Gardai were being lambasted for not acting when there were allegations of children being at risk.
> So in these sort of circumstances, there will always be a risk that whether they act or don't act that they get it wrong. Hindsight is always correct.
> So do we now run the risk that the authorities will be less likely to act in future cases, particularly in cases involving Roma, because of the hysterical reaction following these two cases?
> 
> As usual now we see Claire Daly wading in. She just cannot pass up any opportunity to have a go at the Gardai.



Agree 100% also that Claire Daly reminds me of that old hag you would see in those old black and white films about the French revolution,sitting knitting beside, the guillotine,constantly looking around suspiciously for aristocrats in disguise.


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## potnoodler (10 Nov 2013)

we either support child safety or we dont bother , there was a doubt and the childs interests were prioritised , unfortunate that it was racially motivated but theres far too many dead and missing kids for anyone to be complacent, yes it turned out ok in the end , guards had to mske a call didn't do it for a laugh im sure


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## blueband (11 Nov 2013)

but what about the horrific ordeal this child and her family were put through...can the same thing be let happen again! ?


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## Latrade (11 Nov 2013)

potnoodler said:


> we either support child safety or we dont bother , there was a doubt and the childs interests were prioritised , unfortunate that it was racially motivated but theres far too many dead and missing kids for anyone to be complacent, yes it turned out ok in the end , guards had to mske a call didn't do it for a laugh im sure


 
Erm, really? So it isn't possible to be in support of child safety, but not be in favour of unchecked separation of parents and children? Given the HSE's record with children in danger, I'd say that putting them into the care of the state is much more unsafe, but then I'm prone to ridiculous statements too.

I can be fully in favour of child safety, but completely against the Gardai turning up and taking children away on general assumptions of parentage rather than based upon evidence. 



potnoodler said:


> unfortunate that it was racially motivated


 
It's more than unfortunate as it was the only motivation for the removal of the children. I have various friends who have adopted children from China and Africa, they couldn't look any more different to their kids and are not genetically related. Guess how many times they've been visited for child safety reasons? 

Occasionally in my own family there is a child with very fair hair and skin complextion even though the predominant colouring is darker. Guess how many times we've been visited by Gardai? 

The case came from local gossip and speculation based on racism and the Gardai response was based on racism. The power to separate a child from their parents cannot be based on such spurious evidence.


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## cremeegg (18 Nov 2013)

I am stunned by the reaction to these cases.

How would you react if an agent of the state came into your home and took your child away.

Compensation my foot, the death penalty is too good for these gardai/social workers! 

If it was my child that is what they would get


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## cremeegg (18 Nov 2013)

potnoodler said:


> we either support child safety or we dont bother , there was a doubt and the childs interests were prioritised , unfortunate that it was racially motivated but theres far too many dead and missing kids for anyone to be complacent, yes it turned out ok in the end , guards had to mske a call didn't do it for a laugh im sure



How does it support child safety to remove children from their home and parents.

The poor kids must have been terrified


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## cremeegg (18 Nov 2013)

Betsy Og said:


> It appears to me that everyone acted in good faith. I think the protocol should be developed/communicated/enfoirced that dont remove unless danger. You can park a squad car outside the house, take passports etc. if flight risk is an issue.
> 
> So it was a bit heavy handed and the family are due an apology and things should be a bit more sensitively dealt with next time but I dont think we should overreact in the other direction - put it this way would you feel the State has traditionally overreacted or underreacted to child welfare issues?
> 
> So I dont think anyone needs to resign or have action taken against them.



Two children removed from their homes and parents. For no reason whatsoever. They must have been terrified, and you think no one needs to have action taken against them. Unbelievable


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## cremeegg (18 Nov 2013)

Purple said:


> I think it's long overdue that the state took a more proactive role in child protection. It is unfortunate that these two cases involved ethnic minorities.



What on earth has their being members of an ethnic minority to do with it.

They were children. The guards took them away from their parents for no reason.

This is not child protection, it is state oppression.


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## cremeegg (18 Nov 2013)

The_Banker said:


> This should result in a good pay off for both families.



They are more than entitled.

It is just a pity it will come from the taxpayer and not the perpetrators of this outrage.


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## cremeegg (18 Nov 2013)

Conan said:


> It's not that long ago that the HSE and Gardai were being lambasted for not acting when there were allegations of children being at risk.



What allegations of risk were ever made in these cases. That children were living with adults who were not their parents. That is not itself a risk. What other allegation of risk was ever made.



Conan said:


> So in these sort of circumstances, there will always be a risk that whether they act or don't act that they get it wrong. Hindsight is always correct.
> 
> 
> So do we now run the risk that the authorities will be less likely to act in future cases, particularly in cases involving Roma, because of the hysterical reaction following these two cases?



In my opinion the reaction has not been hysterical enough.


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## DB74 (6 Dec 2013)

It's good to see that the English authorities have the same "welfare-of-the-child" at heart when dealing with people

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/soci...t-sounds-as-if-it-came-from-fiction-1.1618269


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## Purple (9 Dec 2013)

cremeegg said:


> What on earth has their being members of an ethnic minority to do with it.
> 
> They were children. The guards took them away from their parents for no reason.
> 
> This is not child protection, it is state oppression.



I agree. My point is that because of these ham-fisted and stupid incidents the authorities may not act when there is a real risk in the future.


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## Firefly (9 Dec 2013)

Purple said:


> I agree. My point is that because of these ham-fisted and stupid incidents the authorities may not act when there is a real risk in the future.



I totally agree. I'd prefer to err on the side of caution where children are involved, than have any more House of Horrors scenarios thank you very much.


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## Latrade (9 Dec 2013)

Purple said:


> I agree. My point is that because of these ham-fisted and stupid incidents *the authorities may not act when there is a real risk in the future*.


 
I don't think the bolded bit is true. There was no evidence of abuse or mistreatment in these cases, just fair kids with Roma parents, local gossip and racism. 

Let's face it, the state's historical and current record with helping vulnerable children is nothing short of detestable. And leading up to these incidents we had actual stories of failure to act in cases of good evidence of abuse. Yet when it comes to a blond child with dark parents, we're in with the battering rams.

It's not fear of another one of these incidents that puts children at risk, it's the utter incompetence of the current system that can be very efficient when it involved the Roma community.


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## blueband (9 Dec 2013)

latrade said:


> i don't think the bolded bit is true. There was no evidence of abuse or mistreatment in these cases, just fair kids with roma parents, local gossip and racism.
> 
> Let's face it, the state's historical and current record with helping vulnerable children is nothing short of detestable. And leading up to these incidents we had actual stories of failure to act in cases of good evidence of abuse. Yet when it comes to a blond child with dark parents, we're in with the battering rams.
> 
> It's not fear of another one of these incidents that puts children at risk, it's the utter incompetence of the current system that can be very efficient when it involved the roma community.


 +1


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## cremeegg (17 Dec 2013)

So a complaint was made to the Gardai by "a local lady" based on her experience in Estonia. RTE news last night.

My initial reaction was what a farce, but it is much worse, these children were taken from their parents by agents of the state, for no good reason.

I hope that this only happens to Roma and that it couldn't happen to us. Or maybe my family will be ok because we all have a similar shade of mousey brown hair.

Was it from the mother's arms or the fathers that the Gardai dragged the screaming child.


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## Leo (17 Dec 2013)

cremeegg said:


> So a complaint was made to the Gardai by "a local lady" based on her experience in Estonia. RTE news last night.



The story did also state that the family already had a Garda assigned due to a welfare issue with another child. Also, the parents gave the Gardai the name of this child, but others referred to her by a different name, and the parents were unable to provide any documentation whatsoever for the child.

OK, so I'm not fully up to speed on the ins and outs of the case (I'd imagine there's a lot more to it than is currently in the public domain), but had this family disappeared after initial contact and it turned out the child was abducted, the authorities would be vilified for not taking action. It's a no win situation.


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## Delboy (17 Dec 2013)

cremeegg said:


> So a complaint was made to the Gardai by "a local lady" based on her experience in Estonia. RTE news last night.
> 
> My initial reaction was what a farce, but it is much worse, these children were taken from their parents by agents of the state, for no good reason.
> 
> ...



I think you've selectively chosen 1 aspect of the latest news on this case.
As Leo points out above, there are a few other sides to the story that we now know which at least go to better explaining the situation as it happened at the time.....whether the Gardai action was still correct is questionable though, but possibly more understandable now


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## cremeegg (17 Dec 2013)

Leo said:


> ..had this family disappeared after initial contact and it turned out the child was abducted, the authorities would be vilified for not taking action. It's a no win situation.



Of course you are right. 

However the fact remains that they got it wrong here. They took a child away from its parents for no reason. What if it was your child.

"When they came for the Jews, I said nothing because I wasn't a Jew.
When they came for the communists, I said nothing because I wasn't a communist.
When they came for the gypsies I said nothing because I wasn't a gypsy."

Well in Ireland today they are taking kids away from Gypsies, not once but twice.


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## Sunny (17 Dec 2013)

cremeegg said:


> Of course you are right.
> 
> However the fact remains that they got it wrong here. They took a child away from its parents for no reason. What if it was your child.
> 
> ...


 
Oh for Gods sake. Comparing what the authorities did with the Nazi's is a bit OTT don't you think. 

We have just pointed out there was reasons. They were acting on information from the public. There were existing child welfare issues in relation other children in th family. The picture on the child's passport was not a good resemblence. The hospital initially told the authorities that there was no record of the birth. The child seemed to have more than one identity. 

As upseting an ordeal that it must have been for the child and family, I would rather the authorities acted for 24-48 hours than risk the child coming to any harm. The child will recover. 

If it was my child, I would be angry and upset but not half as upset as I would be if I found out that the authorities had my missing child but let her go.


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## cremeegg (17 Dec 2013)

We have recently approved a constitutional referendum which basically makes the state and not the parents the ultimate authority over children.

The Gardai have taken children away from their parents not once but twice.

The poisonous political doctrine of our day is not Nazism, it is the idea that the state can and should take care of all our problems. 

This despite the many failures of the state, particularly with regard to child care.

I certainly hope that you are right that my concerns are OTT.

I think Irish society's reaction to this situation is complacent.


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## callybags (17 Dec 2013)

There are children taken into the care of the State on a monthly, if not weekly basis.

Should all of these cases be stopped on the chance that there may be a mistake made?

It's a precautionary measure to ensure the safety of the child.


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## cremeegg (17 Dec 2013)

Sunny said:


> Oh for Gods sake. Comparing what the authorities did with the Nazi's is a bit OTT
> 
> As upseting an ordeal that it must have been for the child and family, I would rather the authorities acted for 24-48 hours than risk the child coming to any harm. The child will recover.
> 
> If it was my child, I would be angry and upset but not half as upset as I would be if I found out that the authorities had my missing child but let her go.



You are taking it for granted that two things will happen if the state makes a mistake.

1 That this mistake will be recognised quickly

2 That the state will acknowledge the mistake and act accordingly

While both of these things happened in this case, I do not think that they should be taken for granted.

What if they took your child for some reason, then hemmed and hawed and wrote reports for a few years.


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## cremeegg (17 Dec 2013)

callybags said:


> There are children taken into the care of the State on a monthly, if not weekly basis.
> 
> Should all of these cases be stopped on the chance that there may be a mistake made?
> 
> It's a precautionary measure to ensure the safety of the child.



That is ridiculous!

Even I don't think that the state regularly takes children away from their parents as a precautionary measure.

Tell me that you are pulling my leg


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## Sunny (17 Dec 2013)

cremeegg said:


> You are taking it for granted that two things will happen if the state makes a mistake.
> 
> 1 That this mistake will be recognised quickly
> 
> ...



Are you serious? First we have nazi comparisons and now we have fears that the State will take our children for no reason and keep them for years. What next, Enda Kenny could send them down a mine??


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## Sunny (17 Dec 2013)

cremeegg said:


> That is ridiculous!
> 
> Even I don't think that the state regularly takes children away from their parents as a precautionary measure.
> 
> Tell me that you are pulling my leg



If course they do. Why don't you talk to a social worker to see the reality facing front line staff in this country dealing with child protection.


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## cremeegg (17 Dec 2013)

Sunny said:


> If course they do. Why don't you talk to a social worker to see the reality facing front line staff in this country dealing with child protection.



Because if I thought they were involved in taking children away from their parents "as a precautionary measure" I might beat them to death with my bare hands. And I would expect a medal!

No country in the civilised world jails people as a "precautionary measure" even people suspected of intending to carry out serious crime. Much less children


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## Leo (18 Dec 2013)

Jail? I think you've lost it there! 

You might be surprised to read so that 839 children were taken into care during 2011.


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## cremeegg (19 Dec 2013)

If a social worker, backed by Gardai comes into your home and takes you away against your will and confines you in a care home or other institution, thats jail.

Even if you are a child.

Can I pose another question, how does your mindset differ from that of the general public who acquiesced with young women being confined in Magdalen homes in the 1950s.

I am not having a go at you here. I genuinely think that we are complacent about the way the state can take children away from their home in Ireland today.

To my mind the Roma cases illustrated this clearly.

If these cases don't make us re-examine the way we do things, then I think that state intervention in families will increase.

Reasons for state intervention that appear ridiculous now may look reasonable in future. Just as reasons that were reasonable in the 1950s look ridiculous now.

Do you take children from parents who are smokers. Obviously growing up in a smoke filled environment is not in a child's best interests.

At what point between where we are now and taking children away from smokers is the rise in state intervention halted.

If the Roma case did not give us pause, what will.


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## Leo (19 Dec 2013)

cremeegg said:


> If a social worker, backed by Gardai comes into your home and takes you away against your will and confines you in a care home or other institution, thats jail.



No, it isn't anything like jail.



cremeegg said:


> Can I pose another question, how does your mindset differ from that of the general public who acquiesced with young women being confined in Magdalen homes in the 1950s.



If that was aimed at me, what exactly do you think my mindset is?



cremeegg said:


> I am not having a go at you here. I genuinely think that we are complacent about the way the state can take children away from their home in Ireland today.



Are you aware of the Child Care Law Reporting Project and the work they do? If you've read any of the recent case histories, I think you'll see it's quite difficult to have a care order granted, even in cases where parents have admitted causing very serious injury to infants.


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## cremeegg (23 Dec 2013)

Leo said:


> No, it isn't anything like jail.



I gave two specific reasons why it is like jail. You produce no argument to support your opinion



Leo said:


> If that was aimed at me, what exactly do you think my mindset is?


 Complacent





Leo said:


> Are you aware of the Child Care Law Reporting Project and the work they do? If you've read any of the recent case histories, I think you'll see it's quite difficult to have a care order granted, even in cases where parents have admitted causing very serious injury to infants.



Are you aware of the recent case where tow children were taken away from their parents because they had the wrong colour hair. It was widely covered in the press at the time. There is even a thread on AAM about the matter


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## orka (23 Dec 2013)

cremeegg said:


> There is even a thread on AAM about the matter


I'm pretty sure this IS the thread...


cremeegg said:


> Are you aware of the recent case where tow children were taken away from their parents because they had the wrong colour hair.


You seem very worked up about this but you can't know much about it if you think the cases were solely due to hair colour. 

AAM posters are generally reasonable people but no-one seems even close to agreeing with your quite extreme views on this.  The authorities had to make a judgement call.  I would prefer that 20 children were removed as a precautionary measure for a couple of nights in a safe environment - rather than leave one child in an unsafe environment for fear of accusations of meddling.  If their parents react in a sensible way when they return home, I'm sure the children will have forgotten all about it in a few months.


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## blueband (24 Dec 2013)

its a truly terrible thing to happen any family and not something you would ever forget or forgive, but what I found the most disturbing thing about it all was that it was driven purely by racial hatred...


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## Delboy (24 Dec 2013)

blueband said:


> its a truly terrible thing to happen any family and not something you would ever forget or forgive, but what I found the most disturbing thing about it all was that it was driven purely by racial hatred...



in what way was 'racial hatred' the driving force and how are you so certain of this?


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## blueband (24 Dec 2013)

Delboy said:


> in what way was 'racial hatred' the driving force and how are you so certain of this?


 do you think an irish family would have been treated is such manner?


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## Delboy (24 Dec 2013)

ok, so your saying it was 'racial hatred' on an industrial scale....gardai, social workers, judges, media also perhaps?


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## blueband (24 Dec 2013)

Delboy said:


> ok, so your saying it was 'racial hatred' on an industrial scale....gardai, social workers, judges, media also perhaps?


i don't remember saying it was on an industrial scale... your words not mine!....but this incident was racially motivated.


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## orka (24 Dec 2013)

blueband said:


> racial hatred...





blueband said:


> racially motivated.


You're stepping down from racial hatred to racially motivated but you need to make one further step down the scale.  The case undoubtedly happened partially due to race but that doesn't mean it was racial hatred or motivated by race.  Ireland is new to the immigration experience and guards and social workers can't know every cultural nuance of every different race/culture that steps foot on the island - nor should they be expected to.


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## blueband (25 Dec 2013)

look..this family was singled out for special treatment because they were 'roma' as I said there is no way an irish family would have been subjected to such appalling treatment, so if you can not see it was race motivated you must be blind.


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## cremeegg (25 Mar 2014)

Although this case has slipped from the news. The issue of the state taking children from their families isn't just an Irish one. I wonder how far we are from the state taking children on an organised basis. 

Before you write me off as an extremist read the below reports. Neither from newspapers known for their extremism.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/21/john-pilger-indigenous-australian-families

Unfortunately I cannot find the link to an Irish Times article about the recording of Traveller children's details on the Pulse system. It was within the last 2 weeks.


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## cremeegg (1 Jul 2014)

The Ombudsman Emily Logan has just published her report into this matter. 

According to RTE  she says " The readiness to believe the child may have been abducted exceeded the evidence available to the gardai"

Enda has apologised in the Dail and Frances Fitzgerald has met with and apologised to the families.

Thats all right then.

But if the gardai or social workers get it into their heads to take away your children tomorrow there is nothing to stop them!!


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## DB74 (19 Oct 2015)

€60K compensation + costs + several civil servants lost their jobs as a result*

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crim...-blonde-son-2-was-removed-by-gardaí-1.2397511






* only joking about the civil servants bit


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## Leper (19 Oct 2015)

DB74 said:


> €60K compensation + costs + several civil servants lost their jobs as a result*
> 
> http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/high-court/60-000-for-roma-family-whose-blonde-son-2-was-removed-by-gardaí-1.2397511
> 
> ...



What points specifically are you trying to make?


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## cremeegg (20 Oct 2015)

Perhaps the point is that after an episode of "hysterical" and "over zealous" policing which cost the state €60,000 plus and the Roma family involved who knows what trauma, it is very unlikely that any guard, social worker or other public servant responsible will be held to account.


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## DB74 (20 Oct 2015)

cremeegg said:


> Perhaps the point is that after an episode of "hysterical" and "over zealous" policing which cost the state €60,000 plus and the Roma family involved who knows what trauma, it is very unlikely that any guard, social worker or other public servant responsible will be held to account.



Couldn't have put it better myself


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## Deiseblue (20 Oct 2015)

I note from the Irish Times report that Emily Logan , the Children's Ombudsman concluded in her report that the Guards in question honestly believed they were acting in the best interests of the child.

Perhaps given this it would appear that any action against these guards would be unfair ?

It should be noted that the "hysterical " & " over zealous " quotes came not in the judgement but were attributed to the solicitor for the parents of the child.

Apart from the policing arm of the state I do not think that any other social workers or public servants were named in the case for the parents of the child


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## cremeegg (20 Oct 2015)

Deiseblue said:


> It should be noted that the "hysterical " & " over zealous " quotes came not in the judgement but were attributed to the solicitor for the parents of the child.



Their barrister I think, but yes it came from the parents representatives. However they were hardly awarded €60,000 as a result of levelheaded and proportionate actions of Gardai.



Deiseblue said:


> I note from the Irish Times report that Emily Logan , the Children's Ombudsman concluded in her report that the Guards in question honestly believed they were acting in the best interests of the child.



I don't think many people ever thought otherwise. But whatever their honest beliefs, they forcibly removed a child away from its family for no good reason. Which to my mind at least is a very bad thing.

I have no doubt that in all the many manifestations of state power oppressing people in Ireland we have seen over the years, that the people responsible thought they were acting in the best interests of those concerned. That is absolutely no excuse for doing a very bad job.


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## DB74 (20 Oct 2015)

Deiseblue said:


> I note from the Irish Times report that Emily Logan , the Children's Ombudsman concluded in her report that the Guards in question honestly believed they were acting in the best interests of the child.
> 
> Perhaps given this it would appear that any action against these guards would be unfair ?
> 
> ...



The article also refers to a few other statements made by the Ombudsman:

"The Ombudsman’s report on the matter found the Garda actions involved “ethnic profiling” as defined by the European Commission against Racism and Intolerance.

The boy was removed under Section 12 of the 1991 Act, which allows for a child’s removal without a prior court order where it is considered there is an immediate and serious risk to a child’s health and welfare. He was placed in the custody of the HSE and later returned to his parents. DNA tests established he was their child.

In her report of July 2014, then Children’s Ombudsman Emily Logan concluded the readiness to believe the boy, referred to as Child A, might have been abducted exceeded the evidence available and was tied inextricably to the fact his family was Roma.

Ms Logan said she recognised the gardaí in question honestly believed they were acting in the best interests both of the boy and of another blonde Roma girl also removed from her family in Tallaght around the same time.

The tip-offs from the public that triggered the Garda investigations and actions were based on an erroneous view of the case of “Maria” in Europe, then making international headlines. The Garda actions were also based on an explicitly prejudiced view of the Roma community, the Ombudsman said.

In the boy’s case, whatever doubts the gardaí had should have been decisively put to rest when his father told them the child had albinism, she added."


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## Deiseblue (20 Oct 2015)

I totally agree that the entire matter was an unqualified debacle .

However given the fact that the guards in question took the wrong course of action for the right reasons , the lack of training in the area of child protection & the " vexed "  role of the gardai under the child protection act resulted in Emily Logan issuing a number of recommendations to ensure that such a debacle would never happen again  - none of these recommendations posited the view that disciplinary actions should be taken against any party .

And to extrapolate blame to social workers or indeed any other public servant in this matter is mischievous.


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## Firefly (20 Oct 2015)

Deiseblue said:


> I note from the Irish Times report that Emily Logan , the Children's Ombudsman concluded in her report that *the Guards in question honestly believed they were acting in the best interests of the child*.



This is the most important point for me. OK, the guards got it wrong, but better they get it wrong the odd time than be afraid to act the way the did the next time they are faced with removing a child from a potentially very bad situation.

In cases like this where the state, or any organisation for that matter is found to be at fault, then there is always going to be solicitors getting compensation for their clients. However, it shouldn't stop the state from putting the interests of the child first and foremost. Often in cases like this time can be of the essence. Had the family in question actually abducted the child and knew about the plans to retrieve the child then God knows what might have happened.

Obviously, this was traumatic for the parents and family involved, but better that the state does it's best for the safety of children.


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## Leper (20 Oct 2015)

Firefly said "OK, the guards got it wrong, but better they get it wrong the odd time than be afraid to act the way the did the next time they are faced with removing a child from a potentially very bad situation."

The Gardaí got it wrong, full stop and must be held responsible for their actions. They had no right to believe conclusion-jumpers who were acting on mere hearsay. Furthermore, they have no right to take anybody else's child from any family unless they are acting on hard, cold facts.


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## DB74 (20 Oct 2015)

Firefly said:


> This is the most important point for me. OK, the guards got it wrong, but better they get it wrong the odd time than be afraid to act the way the did the next time they are faced with removing a child from a potentially very bad situation.
> 
> In cases like this where the state, or any organisation for that matter is found to be at fault, then there is always going to be solicitors getting compensation for their clients. However, it shouldn't stop the state from putting the interests of the child first and foremost. Often in cases like this time can be of the essence. Had the family in question actually abducted the child and knew about the plans to retrieve the child then God knows what might have happened.
> 
> Obviously, this was traumatic for the parents and family involved, but better that the state does it's best for the safety of children.



Sorry but that's not good enough and I think that's very easy to say when it's someone else that it happens to. I don't know if you have children or not but if you're telling me that you be happy if the Gardai came to your house and took one of your children away because some busybody had reported that he or she "may" not be yours because they looked differently to you then I think you are in a very very small minority

This was a knee-jerk reaction to an once-off Italian case which resulted in a racially-profiled attack on an innocent family.

We only have to look across the Ocean to see plenty of examples where the police get it wrong sometimes but I don't see too many people claiming it's for the greater good


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