# 12 year old cheque cleared through my bank



## irishmoss (17 Apr 2014)

On checking my bank statement this month I couldn't reconcile one cheque withdrawn from my account. It was a small amount but when I rang the bank I was told it was one of my cheques issued in 2002. The scanned image showed an old bank stamp on it. From what I gather so far it was not the company to whom it was payable to who lodged it recently but it was done internally by the bank

 They are investigating it but I am really annoyed that something like this could happen. If for some reason the original amount was never debited from my account surely it would have been courteous of the bank to inform me first of their error? Can they come along now after 12 years and take my money like this?


----------



## Janet (17 Apr 2014)

I always thought that a cheque was only valid for six months. I know, for example, I wasn't able to lodge some old dividend cheques because it was gone past six months and I had to get them re-issued.


----------



## macplaxton (18 Apr 2014)

From _Irish Payment Services Organisation Limited (IPSO)_



> *Do cheques go out of date?*
> It is the practice of  banks in the Republic of Ireland to decline cheques dated six months (or  more) earlier than the date of lodgement.



However it doesn't really answer the question. Over the water, the banks practice is to decline cheques over 6 months, however they are valid whilst the debt exists, to the point they become "statute barred", which in the UK case is 6 years.

The whole point of the six month practice is stop precisely what has happened to you as you may have made the payment since then by alternative means.

I would have thought that debts in Ireland become statute barred long before 12 years have passed. Therefore I don't think they should be taking the money from the account.


----------



## Padraigb (18 Apr 2014)

I don't think that a cheque can become statute-barred because it has a special legal status as a negotiable instrument.

My understanding is that there is no law that sets a specific time limit on cheques. The Bills of Exchange Act provides that they should not have been an unreasonable time in circulation, and the banks have developed an understanding that more than six months is an unreasonable time. 

Whatever about arguing the toss about 7 months being an unreasonable time, I think there is little doubt that 12 years would be seen unreasonable.


----------



## PMU (18 Apr 2014)

As far as I know the Bills of Exchange Act 1882 http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1882/en/act/pub/0061/print.html still governs the handling f cheques in Ireland.  Cheques must be negotiated within a reasonable time but this is case specific.  “_(3.)__ In determining what is a reasonable time within the meaning of this section, regard shall be had to the nature of the bill, the usage of trade with respect to similar bills, and the facts of the particular case.”  _The holder of a cheque will insist that it meets these criteria and require the bank to process it.


----------



## Jim2007 (18 Apr 2014)

irishmoss said:


> It was a small amount but when I rang the bank I was told it was one of my cheques issued in 2002. The scanned image showed an old bank stamp on it. From what I gather so far it was not the company to whom it was payable to who lodged it recently but it was done internally by the bank
> 
> They are investigating it but I am really annoyed that something like this could happen.



Well I'd be very surprised if this did not amount to a technical error!  The chances should be very slim that anyone in the bank would be in a position to process such a cheque.  First of all the chances of such a cheque being left around unprocessed until now are very slim and even it was I would expect that when they try to process it, it would be rejected by the system.

It will be interesting to see what the explanation will be...


----------



## SoylentGreen (19 Apr 2014)

For every debit there must be a credit. You cannot just find a cheque behind a cupboard and introduce it in to the system because it would throw out the day's balancing by that amount.
Smaller cheques are not checked by individuals for errors. The cut off point for examining cheques in value terms varies from day to day.
I would have thought that even the "look" of your cheque has changed and would stand out.


----------



## Jim2007 (19 Apr 2014)

SoylentGreen said:


> For every debit there must be a credit. You cannot just find a cheque behind a cupboard and introduce it in to the system because it would throw out the day's balancing by that amount.
> Smaller cheques are not checked by individuals for errors. The cut off point for examining cheques in value terms varies from day to day.
> I would have thought that even the "look" of your cheque has changed and would stand out.



I serious doubt there was any physical cheque involved.  And as for double entry accounting....  in the past twenty years I've come across more banks using single entry accounting than you'd care to imagine!


----------



## irishmoss (23 Apr 2014)

Thanks everyone, I have been referred on by my business branch  to the fraud team and I will update you on the outcome. The fraud team wanted me to contact the company/payee but I refused stating the cheque was more than 6 months old so it should never have been processed and why was I asked by my business branch to contact the fraud dept. They then said that cheques were valid for 6 years not months but as mine was 12 years they opened a fraud case. I won't be refunded the money until an investigation is complete. To be honest they all sounded as if they were guessing as to what happened. I've asked for a copy of the cheque and they are sending it to me.


----------



## Seagull (23 Apr 2014)

Did the bank perhaps make an error and leave it in a drawer for the last 12 years?


----------



## irishmoss (23 Apr 2014)

I haven't a clue Seagull, it was a ridiculous system. The business branch here could bring up the scanned image and they asked me to contact the fraud department who in turn could NOT bring up the scanned image! So he didn't really understand what the problem was. Why the business branch could not deal with the entire matter I don't know!!


----------



## Bronte (23 Apr 2014)

irishmoss said:


> The business branch here could bring up the scanned image and they asked me to contact the fraud department who in turn could NOT bring up the scanned image!


 
By any chance is this Ulster bank, that's they way they carry one in my experience. One person in one department cannot see the same thing as another employee in their modern 'systems'. It's called inefficiency and making the complainant give up unless they are prepared to do all the running around.


----------



## irishmoss (23 Apr 2014)

Yes Bronte it is and you are spot on with how this was handled. But I will pursue this until it's resolved, I take it if I don't get any result from the fraud department in a week or two I can write to the ombudsman?


----------



## twofor1 (23 Apr 2014)

irishmoss said:


> I take it if I don't get any result from the fraud department in a week or two I can write to the ombudsman?





*A complaint cannot be made in the following instances;*

*5. Fraud - Section 57BZ (1)(d)*

If a complaint is considered to involve fraudulent or potentially fraudulent activity or if an allegation of fraudulent activity is made by either the Complainant or the Financial Service Provider it will not be dealt with by this office. For cases involving fraud the Complainants are advised to refer the matter to an Garda Síochána and to seek redress through a Court of Law.

http://www.financialombudsman.ie/make-a-complaint/what.asp?m=1


----------



## Jim2007 (23 Apr 2014)

irishmoss said:


> I haven't a clue Seagull, it was a ridiculous system. The business branch here could bring up the scanned image and they asked me to contact the fraud department who in turn could NOT bring up the scanned image! So he didn't really understand what the problem was. Why the business branch could not deal with the entire matter I don't know!!



Hold on a minute, why would you go complaining about fraud??? Remember the objective - why did they process a cheque that was 12 years old.  That is your complaint, you don't really care what they got up to internally, that is their problem to sort out not yours!

Keep it simple - they processed a cheque that was well out of date, now you require them to explain themselves and to revert the transaction as they had no right to process it.  There has been no fraud committed on you, do not let them send you off on a tangent.


----------



## irishmoss (23 Apr 2014)

Thanks Jim, I'll call them again tomorrow


----------



## Bronte (24 Apr 2014)

Jim2007 said:


> Hold on a minute, why would you go complaining about fraud??? Remember the objective - why did they process a cheque that was 12 years old. That is your complaint, you don't really care what they got up to internally, that is their problem to sort out not yours!
> 
> Keep it simple - they processed a cheque that was well out of date, now you require them to explain themselves and to revert the transaction as they had no right to process it. There has been no fraud committed on you, do not let them send you off on a tangent.


 

Well said Jim, I've plenty of experience with this bank and Irishmoss will need to keep on their tail to get an answer.  

Irishmoss, you're supposed to get a 'final response' letter before you go to the ombudsman, just keep going with your complaint until you get that.  But you can threaten them with the ombudsman, not that any bank are afraid of that, but maybe now they are to be named and shamed it might have an impact.


----------



## irishmoss (24 Apr 2014)

Thank you both Jim and Bronte, I took your advise and have been assured the amount will be credited back in my account by tomorrow at the latest.


----------



## Bronte (25 Apr 2014)

That's a sudden change of tack by the bank, what did you say to them?


----------



## irishmoss (25 Apr 2014)

I had asked for a copy of the cheque and to me it looked as if it had recently been presented, obviously it was lying around somewhere. I said I didn't know why they had sent me to the fraud dept and my issue was solely that Ulster Bank cashed a 12 year old cheque. She agreed with me and said she had to raise the fraud alert in case more cheques were cashed but that she would refund the money straight away.


----------

