# Is it legal to beg ?



## GOBSTOPPER (24 Jan 2008)

Can anybody tell me if begging is legal ? my partner has a problem with Roma gypsies begging every day from her customers sitting outside her café in Dublin 2 ,(which she pays the council for the privilege of putting tables out). she has asked the garda patrolling the area and they just say they cant do anything as they are not doing anything wrong. They stand and hassle customers for a long time and its really uncomfortable for her and her customers, most Irish just politely say no. but alot of tourists are really badgered and you can see the fear in their faces.The same 12-15 girls and babies work the area every day like its their patch and i know alot of the businesses in the area are sick of them. why is our capital city allowed to be over run by these organized gangs and by groups ? drunks gathering for their daily booze up session on the liffey boardwalk and while the tourists Q up for the liffey boat ride they have to endure the sector of women and men sleeping on the benches with urine and vomit and cans and bottles and rubbish strewn all over ! OK rant over for now !


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## ClubMan (24 Jan 2008)

The law making begging illegal . It's not illegal to beg.


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## GOBSTOPPER (24 Jan 2008)

Thanks for that ,wow i cant believe there is no protection against this form of extortion ! any ideas on how we can counter this behavior ? any ideas welcome .we are at the end of our tether ! you pay your taxes ,rates,create jobs ,try to provide a nice environment for people to enjoy a relaxing moment during the day and these people just come and laugh in your face and hassle your customers ,in the full knowledge you cant do anything, I even had a Roma beggar telling me that i couldn't refuse to serve her  as she was a minority person,(after begging off customers outside) i told her to take me to court. but they are obviously being couched by somebody.technically she is right ! I could be hauled in front of a court for discrimination.


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## lightup (24 Jan 2008)

It is illegal to use children when begging under the Childrens Act I think so maybe it can be addressed under this?

Also, while begging is not illegal, the Gardai do have powers under public order legislation if people are harassing members of the public.


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## quinno (24 Jan 2008)

I work in Dublin 2, and have to say these people are a real pest. I have to hand it to them though, the recently acquired a wheelchair, which thy pass amongst which ever of the crowd is begging that day, seems to be their next tool for extracting money out of people. 

You gotta be real careful with them, they are ready to play the race card if there's a hint of agro.


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## Welfarite (24 Jan 2008)

There's a thing called the Mosquito which emits a high-pitched sound that forces young people to move away from the vicinity. Two downsides:

1. It only works on tennagers and those up to 20 years of age and 
2. It will drive young customers away also.


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## stir crazy (24 Jan 2008)

ClubMan said:


> The law making begging illegal . It's not illegal to beg.



I think the judge was wrong. Are there any plans to frame a new law which satisfies the courts ?



lightup said:


> It is illegal to use children when begging under the Childrens Act I think so maybe it can be addressed under this?
> 
> Also, while begging is not illegal, the Gardai do have powers under public order legislation if people are harassing members of the public.



I see children on the streets every day. I dont get it . Once a child is caught once then how is it allowed to happen twice ? What responsibility under the law do parents have in all of this ?


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## ClubMan (24 Jan 2008)

Welfarite said:


> There's a thing called the Mosquito which emits a high-pitched sound that forces young people to move away from the vicinity. Two downsides:
> 
> 1. It only works on tennagers and those up to 20 years of age and
> 2. It will drive young customers away also.


Wasn't there some recent talk that people affected by this device might be able to sue for assault? May have been baseless but I did read it somewhere.



stir crazy said:


> I think the judge was wrong.


What do you mean? He was wrong on a point of law or you just don't agree with the decision?





> I see children on the streets every day. I dont get it . Once a child is caught once then how is it allowed to happen twice ? What responsibility under the law do parents have in all of this ?


I think you can call the likes of the ISPCC, [broken link removed] (site down at the moment?) or Barnardos to report this and they will deal with it or alert the relevant authorities.


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## Welfarite (24 Jan 2008)

ClubMan said:


> Wasn't there some recent talk that people affected by this device might be able to sue for assault? May have been baseless but I did read it somewhere.




when that happens I'll sue for assault by inane ringtones


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## ClubMan (24 Jan 2008)

GOBSTOPPER said:


> Thanks for that ,wow i cant believe there is no protection against this form of extortion ! any ideas on how we can counter this behavior ? any ideas welcome .


How about...


GOBSTOPPER said:


> most Irish just politely say no.


That's what I normally do when approached by on street beggers. Or chuggers.


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## stir crazy (24 Jan 2008)

ClubMan said:


> What do you mean? He was wrong on a point of law or you just don't agree with the decision?.




From the RTE article :

'But the judge found that the section was unconstitutional because it interfered with the constitutional right of freedom of expression and freedom to communicate with other people' 


I will put myself out on a limb here but I am willing to bet that the vast majority of peoples'  view of Begging is 

begging = harassment = anti social 

I am so sick and tired of hearing the familiar skanger whine every time I wait by an ATM. Or to be unable to walk the streets without this aggressive begging in my face with kids in tow. On the way to Prague last week I had the misfortune to sit behind some Roma gypsies covered in jewellery (whos faces I know very well from Grafton street) who were obviously funding their holidays with the proceeds of begging. They were also unfortunately on the return flight with me. Theres no way they are poor. It was odd to encounter these particular people and find them not begging since I know their faces very well. I should have asked *them* for some money for a laugh. I wonder how kind they would have been to me if I had lost my wallet and needed bus fare.

I wouldn't like to argue law with a judge without having a judge of my own as counsel but theres such a thing as common sense in the implementation of the law. Theres the spirit in which a law was intended to be used. There are forms of expression and communication which are illegal like public nudity, certain types of porn and publicly calling for the over throw of the state etc. Based upon the article and using the Judge's logic about free communication between people being an absolute right these would all be legal.


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## GOBSTOPPER (24 Jan 2008)

Yes why does it happen ? I have a brother who works in the city with drug addicts, homeless teens ,and he said people really don't know the damage they do by giving to teens on the streets ,and the Roma gypsies . the teens sometimes pay for their pitch to a ringmaster/ criminal forced out to collect money to repay drug debts etc. some pitches are worth alot of money ! we all know the prime pitches which exist every weekend night catching the punters with a few jars on them.THIS IS A BUSINESS . if you want to be helpful donate to Simon or st.Vinnie's or similar charities who get the help where it is really needed.It is the culture of some Roma people to teach their children to beg and to steal ,its not the kids fault but if the parents keep getting off without penalty the business continues.


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## ClubMan (24 Jan 2008)

Moved to _LOS_.


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## truthseeker (24 Jan 2008)

Gobstopper - of course its a business, but as long as people give it will continue.

When the smoking ban first came in I was regularly harrassed outside Cafe En Seine on Dawson street by gypsies begging - and they were intimidating! They had the timing down to a tee - harrass one set of people, wait 10/15 minutes, harrass next set of people. Bouncers couldnt do anything as they were on the door of the establishment so people were just being interrupted and harrassed all the time.


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## z104 (24 Jan 2008)

Stop giving and they will stop.
I've seen people give 5 & 10 euro notes to these people. 

At least when it was illeagal the guards could arrest/move on/ detain or direct them to the correct services or call the social services to give them information on their entitlements.


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## csirl (24 Jan 2008)

While begging may not be illegal, harrassment and behaviour which could reasonably be assumed to make the average person uncomfortable or feel intimidated IS illegal. 

There are also laws regarding child labour (which children begging is), running businesses/taxation, collecting money on streets etc.,

Like a lot of things in this country, laws do exist to deal with the problem, but our enforcement agencies dont do a good job of enforcement. Just because the ancient Vagrancy Act was taken out of use, it doesnt mean that anyone begging is exempt from ALL laws.


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## therave (24 Jan 2008)

i had a problem last year with a problem neighbour and she moved out and a family of Roma's moved in..the house is spotless i must say but the comings and going are something else..
1 family of them were in spain for a month on holiday's and none of the family work..
they also take the kids out of school during the day and take them off begging door to door.
complain to the childerns charities and the Gardai especially when they have the kids.also look for the community garda to help you out


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## ClubMan (24 Jan 2008)

csirl said:


> Just because the ancient Vagrancy Act was taken out of use, it doesnt mean that anyone begging is exempt from ALL laws.


Did anybody suggest that this was the case?


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## ClubMan (24 Jan 2008)

GOBSTOPPER said:


> my partner has a problem with Roma gypsies begging every day





GOBSTOPPER said:


> I even had a Roma beggar telling me that i couldn't refuse to serve her  as she was a minority person





GOBSTOPPER said:


> and the Roma gypsies
> 
> ...
> 
> It is the culture of some Roma people to teach their children to beg and to steal





truthseeker said:


> When the smoking ban first came in I was regularly harrassed outside Cafe En Seine on Dawson street by gypsies begging





therave said:


> i had a problem last year with a problem neighbour and she moved out and a family of Roma's moved in..



Funny - the vast majority of street and (less so these days) door to door beggars that I have come across are _Irish_. No chance this thread is simply an opportunity for some to target "bloody immigrants" yet again?


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## REMFAN (24 Jan 2008)

Actually had a begger knock on our door yesterday! An old Roma man asking for money. The other hall heard him out but I came down and told him we're not interested and shut the door in his face... Just say no!!!


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## z103 (24 Jan 2008)

> No chance this thread is simply an opportunity for some to target "bloody immigrants" yet again?


Did someone refer to Roma gypsies as 'bloody immigrants' in this thread?

This thread obviously is targeting Roma gypsies (and not immigrants in general). We recently had a thread targetting 'Bloody shop assistants'.


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## stir crazy (24 Jan 2008)

ClubMan said:


> Funny - the vast majority of street and (less so these days) door to door beggars that I have come across are _Irish_. No chance this thread is simply an opportunity for some to target "bloody immigrants" yet again?





I have no problem personally with deporting people who break the law consistently without remorse or guilt if we are lucky enough for them to not be indigeneous with rights to be here. That behaviour doesnt make us racist . It just makes us clever. 
This is a anti-begging thread , not a anti immigration thread. Immigrants are welcome enough and the vast majority of them are hard working and loved for it. But I dont think the Irish public or any hard working society anywhere welcomes begging immigrants or immigrants who dont wish to contribute to society.  But being smart shouldnt be confused with being racist as its not a black and white situation. Real life is a grey area.Just my opinion.


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## truthseeker (25 Jan 2008)

Originally Posted by *truthseeker* http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?p=563367#post563367 
_When the smoking ban first came in I was regularly harrassed outside Cafe En Seine on Dawson street by gypsies begging_




ClubMan said:


> Funny - the vast majority of street and (less so these days) door to door beggars that I have come across are _Irish_. No chance this thread is simply an opportunity for some to target "bloody immigrants" yet again?


 
I did not make any reference to nationality in this quote - Ive no idea what nationality the people were, I used 'gypsies' in the context of :One inclined to a nomadic, unconventional way of life.


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## csirl (25 Jan 2008)

> Funny - the vast majority of street and (less so these days) door to door beggars that I have come across are _Irish_. No chance this thread is simply an opportunity for some to target "bloody immigrants" yet again?


 
This is a thread about beggars, not immigrants. Just because a minority sub-set of beggars are immigrants, doesnt mean that people are not allowed to talk about the subject. I agree with you that there are a lot of Irish beggars. 

Here's an interesting true story - I personally know the guy who actually did this, it is not one of those urban myth friend of a friend stories.

And to give you some background, this friend worked as a volunteer with homeless charities, so its not someone taking the... He did this for genuine research reasons.
His view on homeless, based on having done the soup runs etc. for years, was that most of them are using the begging money for alcohol or drug addiction.

He volunteered to beg on O'Connell bridge in Dublin for a week - working the equivalent of a normal working hours of 40 hours Monday to Friday. He collected in excess of €1,000 during this week. The hourly collection rate was actually much higher on average as a couple of times during the week he was "moved on" by Gardai and lost a few hours collection time and another couple of times he got hastle from regular beggars about him being "on their patch". He didnt do anything special. Just sat on the footpath wearing an old coat with his head down and holding out a cup. Didnt interact with passers by.

Was an interesting eye opener of a study - €1k per week tax free.


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## dicey_reilly (25 Jan 2008)

stir crazy said:


> But being smart shouldnt be confused with being racist as its not a black and white situation.


 
DOH!


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## truthseeker (25 Jan 2008)

csirl said:


> This is a thread about beggars, not immigrants. Just because a minority sub-set of beggars are immigrants, doesnt mean that people are not allowed to talk about the subject. I agree with you that there are a lot of Irish beggars.
> 
> Here's an interesting true story - I personally know the guy who actually did this, it is not one of those urban myth friend of a friend stories.
> 
> ...


 
Interesting story - this thread started out talking about beggars 'actively' soliciting people for money outside a place of business. I wonder how much money would be made in those circumstances. Its much easier to walk past someone with head down holding out a cup than it is to escape someone in your face while you try to enjoy a cup of coffee sitting outside.


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## batty (25 Jan 2008)

Recently I was in malahide with my mother.  as we were looking in a shop window we were approached by a lady of about 55 who asked us for "the price of a lunch". we tried ignoring her but she was very persistent & started pulling my mother's arm.

My mother asked her why she was asking us for money, why doesn't she have a job..    Beggar says she can't work she's on disability benefit.

Quick as a flash my mother says " well I'm an old age pensioner on a non contributory pension so you receive more money than me - could you give me the price of a lunch??"  !!


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## truthseeker (25 Jan 2008)

batty said:


> Recently I was in malahide with my mother. as we were looking in a shop window we were approached by a lady of about 55 who asked us for "the price of a lunch". we tried ignoring her but she was very persistent & started pulling my mother's arm.
> 
> My mother asked her why she was asking us for money, why doesn't she have a job.. Beggar says she can't work she's on disability benefit.
> 
> Quick as a flash my mother says " well I'm an old age pensioner on a non contributory pension so you receive more money than me - could you give me the price of a lunch??" !!


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## rabbit (26 Jan 2008)

GOBSTOPPER said:


> Can anybody tell me if begging is legal ?


If its done nicely and the wearer wears a suit and tie. Then he may get a dig out from friends in Manchester.


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## HelloJed (26 Jan 2008)

The Roma women begging on O'Connell Street and surroundings make me uncomfortable, as my partner and I have often seen men collecting their money from the women and hovering nearby. We've got the impression that they are the women's 'pimps' (for want of a better word) - I know we might have the wrong end of the stick but it upsets me nonetheless.


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## stir crazy (27 Jan 2008)

I passed today a Irish lad who begs outside the Irish Permanent in Stephens Green. Normally he pretends to be weak , shivering ,small,  hungry , cold etc , like a naughty child in school who gives innocent eyes to teacher when disciplined. When misguided people , tourists etc  give him money and try to chat with them he puts on a cough and acts like he cant talk and is on drugs (which I doubt now). I have walked past him on the way to Donnybrook every day for the last few years now.

However today he was fighting over 'begging territory' with a Roma gypsy beggar who is lately using a wheelchair as a prop. I was surprised his cough had gone away , his 'weak' ness turned out to be a sham. Hes stronger than most people in my opinion. He walked out of the local spar with a sandwich and coffee, tall and strong and turned the gypsy in the wheelchair over and the gypsy stood up and didnt need it at all.  2 actors in a strange play and I the audience. I never saw him before when he wasnt sitting on the ground pretending to be weak. Today was an interesting day.  I guess  some peope have no shame


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