# Advise on solicitor for PIAB work ?



## FirstTime (14 Dec 2011)

I'm looking for some advise from Legal eagles ?

I sustained an injury, through no fault of my own, and have engaged a solicitor who came recommended to me, to advise and guide through the PIAB process, and go further if needs be.

Upon first meeting the solicitor about 6 months ago, she seemed genuine and understanding, and seemed to think that I would have no issue winning the case(obviously no guarantees).

She sent me to a specialist to identify the exact extent of the injury (which is still ongoing). 
The wait time before I saw this specialist was say 2-3 months.
I queried fees at the time, and she was vague, saying it was difficult without knowing the extent of the damage. 

Within the last few weeks I had a second visit to the specialist, and I had my second meeting with my solicitor in which I filled out the PIAB application.
I subsequently received the section 68 letter, quiet long/detailed and a bit long winded, advising what hourly rate is and details of what is included/excluded in costs if we go past PIAB and go to the courts. Very vague in specifics, just saying that costs awarded may not be full costs and I would be required to pay the difference. (a bit worrying, is there normally a big difference in awarded costs and actual cost ?).

She has said it is difficult to put a cost on future work, as the workload is unknown, that I am resposible for fees for work carried out, plus any extras etc.
She does state that she expected the costs for the PIAB work to cost between €2000-€3000 + Vat + Outlays. It also detailed
I've been told that I will need to have a follow up visit to the specialist in 9 months, to asses the injury then.

Q1. Can a report done in 9 months time be added to an already submitted PIAB application?

So I've seen other posts with fees of 1200 - 2000 mentioned, a few even to 2500. 
I'm left wondering if the estimated price ("expected" doesnt mean actual to me) of 2-3 is a small bit excessive ?
Q2. Does an "estimate" of 2-3k + Vat + Outlays seem a bit expensive ? I feel that i'm on the train already and can't just walk off if I feel I'm being charged more than I should.

Q3. Also, What constitutes standard "outlays" for a common PIAB case, Medical reports I understand are part of this, but what other costs are outlays; is it phone calls, postage costs for letters ?
Q4. and what roughly do they cost would ?

I'm trying to get a rough estimate of TOTAL costs that will be deducted from any prospective award.
say 3k Fees + 2or3 medical reports + other Outlays + Vat @ 21%.
A very rough estimate, 3000 + 1200 + ??? 300 + (.21 x 4500) 945 = 5445 Say 5,500 
Would the above seem like an average Total cost deduction from Solicitors PIAB work?

Q5. Would I be correct in assuming that although 6 months have gone, and I have only recently filled out the application, that there would be very little work done to date by the solicitor ?

Thanks
Firsttime.


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## McCrack (15 Dec 2011)

There's a lot in your post to tease out. I'll try narrow it down simply. Ultimately you should be directing these concerns to your solicitor.

€2k plus vat would be a typical solicitor PIAB fee. €3k plus vat in my view is a little high. 

Outlay is recoverable if/when you win your case. There may be a shortfall is everything that your solicitor can recover from the other side and in that instance you are responsible for the shortfall. As pointed out that's difficult to quantify. 

There is prep work needed to get any case into PIAB. Its not just filling out a form. I don't obviously know what was or typically would have been done in your case. When its in there very little will be happening on your file.


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## FirstTime (16 Dec 2011)

Thanks for the reply McCrack.

Ya having re-read my post, I can see that there was a lot in it, I was just trying to give as much info as possible.

There has been an update.  I received a letter from my solicitor in which she states that as the injury was caused due to possible medical negligence, that I dont have to /shouldn't go through PIAB.

A quick look at the injuries board website FAQ's states


> anyone intending to seek compensation for a Personal Injury (*other than a personal injury arising out of medical negligence)* must make an Application through InjuriesBoard.ie


 
So this leave me asking, should the solicitor not have known from day 1 that this was not a case that needed to go through PIAB, and also if there have been costs associated for her PIAB work to date, then in you option, should I have to foot the bill for this unrequired work? 

Thanks again.
Firsttime.


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## McCrack (16 Dec 2011)

I cant give you an opinion without seeing your file. If there was doubt that your injuries were caused by med neg it would be prudent to have the matter in PIAB anyway to stop the clock running against you (statute of limitations). This would give some breathing space to allow expert opinion be got to say one way or the other.

I can only assume PIAB have declined to assess it on that basis. 

Anyway you can now go ahead and issue proceedings directly against the defendant/s. Things will begin to move now.


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## nuac (16 Dec 2011)

First time

You have been rather vague re cause of your injurry.  On the first line of your first post you refer to an injury thru no fault of your own.   

Now probably as a result I presume of a medical report your solicitor advises you that there may have been medical negligence.

Did  you give a full statement of what exactly happened?    RTA and employment injuries are completely  different from med neg injuries.    Surely you know how and why your were hurt,   

 It is  of course possible to have a RTA injury,  later aggravated by medical negligence.

Med neg  cases are difficult.  In hospital cases It is often difficult to find out what exactly  happened, and to  obtain full records, notes, test results etc etc.   There may be non-Irish staff who may have gone elsewhere when required for statements or evidence.,

 When your solicitor has got all records together, a report has to be obtained from an appropriatly qualified and experienced medical consultant.  You will have to go to UK - and not just NI.  No Irish  doctor will give evidence against another.  Such reports can cost £1,500  to £3,000.    Some organisations send out lists of such "expert witnesses".  Don't t rust them without checking.     Your solicitor needs to know, or talk to someone who knows how such witnesses have fared in  court here - i,e, word of mouth far better than working off such lists.   

You need a solicitor and barrister experienced in med neg.   You need a signature on your summons of one of the leading counsel in that area..

I  doubt if any solicitor who knows this area would take on your case for less than €10,000 up front.   You would also of course be paying for reports up front.    If you want a consultation with one of the UK witnesses your solicitor may be able to arrange it while he ( rarely a "she" at that level ) is over at the 4 Cts for another case.   Otherwise you would either  have to fly the consultant over to Ireland, or yourself and legal team fly over to the UK.   Neither cheap

Good luck with all that -  and remember apart from certain exceptions proceedings have to be issued within two years of injury, and you already seem to be well into year one.


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## McCrack (16 Dec 2011)

NUAC I would say its entirely possible to get a UK opinion by sending over the hospital chart/radiology and any other notes and reports. Often its not necessary for the plaintiff to travel over. 

In fact any med neg cases I have been involved with, the client has not had to travel. But in saying that a lot of our cases are of a particular kind and a lot of medical precedent is there to assist.


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## nuac (16 Dec 2011)

McCrack

I agree that the expert can work off the the reports and other data when preparing his report. In the case I am thinking of and still dealing with there were many complications, novel points, and substantial differences between HSE and clients advisers. Several detailed consultations required so far.


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## FirstTime (16 Dec 2011)

Hi McCrack / Nuac,

No not an RTA.  This was a common medical procedure that went wrong.  Correct procdeures were not followed. Don't want to give too much info,  trying to remain somewhat anon.  There was no road traffic accident  involved, so that is why I'm wondering why she thought it should go  through PIAB in the first place.
I too would suspect that the PIAB refused the application

The specialist has provided an initial report to my solicitor.

You asked if I gave a full report.  Report to who ? my solicitor &  the specialist were told the full story.  I had to provide my solicitor  with a written account of what happened.

You state no Irish Doctor will give evidence against another, surely the  specialist I was sent to, who provided the report, will do so,  otherwise why send me to him in the first place ?  

Can I ask a quick question - roughly how long does it usually take for preceedings to get to court ?

Thanks again.
Firsttime


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## nuac (17 Dec 2011)

First time

I repeat my experience and that of other solicitors is that no Irish doctor will give evidence as to th e neglgence of otherwise of another doctor's managemen of a case.

As regards time you have to complete all investigations, get all necessary reports, deal with particulars,      ddsicovery etc and then if counsel confirms all is ready serve notice for trial and set the action down for hearing.   I gather in the Dublin list that could currently be about six months - then you and the other side have to organise dates that suit the witnesses etc etc.

Good luck with it


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## FirstTime (13 Jul 2012)

Hi all - a few months on, and the consultant who I visited is not playing ball. was happy to see me and charge fees, and write reports, but wasn't happy to lay blame on the defendent. (Nuac & McCrack were spot on)

I suspect that this has put a spanner in my solicitors plan, and she seems a bit unsure of what direction to go in order of finding a UK specialists that will act on our behalf as a Medical expert.

Should she not know where to go for a willing competent replacement from the UK, rather than asking the now non co-operating consultant to provide her with a name ?

Anyone know where to get these lists of UK consultants that act as witnesses against Irish Medical persons, or point me in the direction ?

Thanks,
Firsttime.


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## dereko1969 (13 Jul 2012)

Sorry perhaps I've read this all wrong but PIAB does not deal with medical negligence so how your solicitor could have even suggested using PIAB is beyond me.


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## FirstTime (13 Jul 2012)

Derek01969 - Yes, as presumed by McCrack earlier in the thread, the PIAB refused to deal with the case.


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## Brendan Burgess (13 Jul 2012)

I am completely confused

The heading and the questions are all about PIAB!  But this has nothing to do with PIAB as it's medical negligence

If your solicitor did not know this and spent a lot of time and money on PIAB related issues, then it suggests strongly that the solicitor is not competent. 

I often get into trouble for suggesting that a solicitor might not be competent and that the poster might not be telling the full story. But if the solicitor knew from the outset that it was medical negligence, then PIAB should never have been even mentioned other than to tell you that you could not use PIAB. 

Brendan


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## serotoninsid (13 Jul 2012)

Brendan Burgess said:


> The heading and the questions are all about PIAB!  But this has nothing to do with PIAB as it's medical negligence


I'm open to correction - and the legal professionals on here can confirm or otherwise - but my understanding is that it has to go through the motions (regardless of the specifics) before PIAB turn around and say that they won't deal with it.  Then at that stage, it goes into the courts system.  That's my (laymans) understanding...


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## Brendan Burgess (13 Jul 2012)

I, too, am a layman, but Injuriesboard.ie is quite clear



> *Q2. Who should apply to InjuriesBoard.ie?*
> 
> A: Under the  Personal Injuries Assessment Board Act 2003, anyone intending to seek  compensation for a Personal Injury (other than a personal injury arising  out of medical negligence) must make an Application through  InjuriesBoard.ie,



I don't think that medical negligence claims need to go through them just to be rejected, but if this is the case, then the solicitor should have advised the OP. 

The heading says "Advise on a solicitor for PIAB work" . This is not PIAB work.


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## FirstTime (13 Jul 2012)

Hi Brendan,

Apologies, I can see how it appears to look confusing, but the post  spans some time.  The original title was relavent to the original post  by me, but the case has moved on since then.

Initially I was informed that the claim had to go through PIAB, and  after the initial application form was submitted by her, she informed me  that we then didn't have to go through PIAB.(I suspect that PIAB  refused to deal with it and communicated this to her). 

I had been sent to a consultant prior to that, in order for the  solicitor to know the extent of the damage and the long term prognosis.  Now, after many months and 2 reports, he refuses to directly state that  medical neg. was due to the original consultant. 

I had been advised, that no consultant would stand against another in  irl.  So this is the case as it stands. My solicitor has to find me a  consutant that will review my file and be a medical witness for us, in  order for us to have a case in which we can lodge.

What I need to know is, where can I get a list of uk consultants that will do this work ?

Thanks,
Firsttime


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## serotoninsid (13 Jul 2012)

FirstTime said:


> Initially I was informed that the claim had to go through PIAB, and  after the initial application form was submitted by her, she informed me  that we then didn't have to go through PIAB.(I suspect that PIAB  refused to deal with it and communicated this to her).


That's the point I was making.  Even though it was clear they never would deal with it, the system that is in place meant that you have to go through the motions - and submit it to PIAB initially.  Once that's done and PIAB confirm they are washing their hands of it, proceedings can be issued.

That's my understanding anyways...open to correction...


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## McCrack (14 Jul 2012)

A couple points I would make.

Firstly it's prudent practice to submit an application to the Injuries Board in med neg cases simply to get the Authorisation so there can never be any question down the road as to whether the matter should have been submitted. The Injuries Board will kick it out within a couple weeks anyway. €45.00 well spent in my opinion.

Secondly First Time is it a possibility in fact that there is no liability in your case? No amount of fishing for Irish or UK independent experts will make your case if in fact you just don't have one. I don't know but that is just something I am gleaning from your posts. 

There are no shortage of medical experts in the UK practising medico-legal work. Finding one is not a problem. Finding liability often is unfortunately.


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