# Best place for a new terminal/ariport?



## aircobra19 (9 May 2008)

I've never understood why instead of expensively extending a landlocked Dublin airport, that has limited scope for future development. They don't build an airport in the center of the country that could service the whole country including Dublin.


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## muzaway (9 May 2008)

Moate International Airport? (MIA)


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## shnaek (9 May 2008)

aircobra19 said:


> I've never understood why instead of expensively extending a landlocked Dublin airport, that has limited scope for future development. They don't build an airport in the center of the country that could service the whole country including Dublin.



I agree with you completely. An airport in Portarlington makes most sense. There is plenty land there, and a rail line which services Dublin, Cork, Kerry, Limerick, Galway, Mayo, Offaly, Westmeath, Laois, Kildare etc.

You'd be in Dublin city centre on the train in less than 40mins. If this was Germany then it would be built, but seeing as how it's Ireland we will build a badly designed terminal which will be years late and overbudget at an airport which is impossible to get to. We'll spend a billion on the terminal, and another billion building a metro to get there. Inspiring.


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## Squire (9 May 2008)

nimbys, that's why.


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## ClubMan (9 May 2008)

Squire said:


> nimbys, that's why.


And BANANAs.


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## rabbit (9 May 2008)

aircobra19 said:


> I've never understood why instead of expensively extending a landlocked Dublin airport, that has limited scope for future development. They don't build an airport in the center of the country that could service the whole country including Dublin.


 
That would be too much like common sense.    Politicians in this country do not do common sense.


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## Purple (9 May 2008)

ClubMan said:


> And BANANAs.


 That's NUTS


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## bullbars (9 May 2008)

rabbit said:


> That would be too much like common sense. Politicians in this country do not do common sense.


 
I think they realise it would be common sense, but when it is announced that it will be built in their own constituency and they are seeking re-election etc. they will quickly knock the project on the head. Its a bit like the incinerator issue, they know it makes sense but nobody wnats to see it in their own area.


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## Purple (9 May 2008)

1/3 of the population lives in the greater Dublin area. Why would the airport not be close to Dublin? I do agree that building it further out would be good, maybe near Naas or some other location with good road access and near to rail access that can be upgraded.


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## shnaek (9 May 2008)

The thing about Portarlington is that it is nearer to Dublin than the current airport! Maybe not at 3am, but certainly during business hours. The train service right now can do the journey in 40 mins. I am sure that a well designed airport could be built, along with upgrading the rain line and a motorway spur to the M7 for the sum that the new DAA terminal is going to cost.

Trouble is, it would make so much sense that everybody would use it - so Dublin, Cork, Shannon and the other regional airports would loose out. This country is a fine example of one that isn't run for the benefit of it's population. The vested interests would never allow an airport to be built in Portarlington, or anywhere else in the midlands for that matter, even though the new Taoiseach is from there. Nor would the DAA or the unions allow another airport to be built in Dublin.


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## aircobra19 (9 May 2008)

Purple said:


> 1/3 of the population lives in the greater Dublin area. Why would the airport not be close to Dublin? I do agree that building it further out would be good, maybe near Naas or some other location with good road access and near to rail access that can be upgraded.



Exactly, 2/3 don't live around Dublin. At peak times, its probably quicker to drive 100 miles out of Dublin than cross from one side to another. Dublin airport is stuck out on the Northside too. So its not even in the middle of Dublin either, or near a train route etc.


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## bullbars (9 May 2008)

shnaek said:


> The vested interests would never allow an airport to be built in Portarlington, or anywhere else in the midlands for that matter, even though the new Taoiseach is from there. Nor would the DAA or the unions allow another airport to be built in Dublin.


 
I think you've summed it up there.


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## Purple (10 May 2008)

aircobra19 said:


> Exactly, 2/3 don't live around Dublin.



Do 1/3 live around Portarlington?


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## aircobra19 (10 May 2008)

Purple said:


> Do 1/3 live around Portarlington?



1/3 don't live around Swords.


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## ajapale (10 May 2008)

shnaek said:


> An airport in Portarlington makes most sense. There is plenty land there.....




Yes there are thousands of acres of largely uninhabited cut away bog land in the vicinity of Portarlington. This cutaway bog is owned by Bord na Mona a state owned enterprise so there would be little or no land acquisition problems. 

While there are no local Nimbys to speak of - objections from extreme environmentalists, hippies, "shell to sea" types, anarchists, SFers and luddites of all descriptions from outside the area (and country) would have to be anticipated.


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## Purple (10 May 2008)

aircobra19 said:


> 1/3 don't live around Swords.


No, but they live within 15 miles or so of Swords.
There needs to be better transport links to Dublin airport but to suggest that the biggest airport in the country should not be located near to the biggest population centre in the country is nonsense.


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## rabbit (10 May 2008)

aircobra19 said:


> I've never understood why instead of expensively extending a landlocked Dublin airport, that has limited scope for future development. They don't build an airport in the center of the country that could service the whole country including Dublin.


 
somewhere between Mullingar and the M50 would be ideal.  That would be more central to most people.


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## Purple (10 May 2008)

aircobra19 said:


> I've never understood why instead of expensively extending a landlocked Dublin airport, ...


 What's the big deal about it being land locked? Do you thing that seaplanes will make a comeback?

The problem is not the location it's the total lack of public transport infrastructure serving it.
There is no reason why there should not be direct trains from Galway, Sligo, and Belfast  to Dublin Airport.


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## aircobra19 (10 May 2008)

Purple said:


> No, but they live within 15 miles or so of Swords.
> There needs to be better transport links to Dublin airport but to suggest that the biggest airport in the country should not be located near to the biggest population centre in the country is nonsense.



If you read what I posted properly I didn't say that. I said instead of extending Dublin build another airport. Distribute the load etc. Or as you would put it, nearer 2/3's the population. There are times it could take an 15mins or two hours to go 15 miles in Dublin. 



Purple said:


> What's the big deal about it being land locked? Do you thing that seaplanes will make a comeback?



Heres a thought. Maybe there's more than one meaning to the term Landlocked? 

Even if I'm not using it correctly, its pretty obvious what I meant, so what is served by a comment like that?



Purple said:


> The problem is not the location it's the total lack of public transport infrastructure serving it.
> There is no reason why there should not be direct trains from Galway, Sligo, and Belfast  to Dublin Airport.



Considering the overloaded train network all feeding into Dublin, and going through Dublin to get to anywhere else in the country cramming more people on it, doesn't appeal to be me tbh. Even assuming if you are going for an early morning flight that you could a train early enough.


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## Purple (10 May 2008)

aircobra19 said:


> If you read what I posted properly I didn't say that. I said instead of extending Dublin build another airport. Distribute the load etc. Or as you would put it, nearer 2/3's the population. There are times it could take an 15mins or two hours to go 15 miles in Dublin.


 There are massive economies of scale in the aviation industry which are particularly important in small regional airports (like Dublin airport).  The reality is that there is no other location that is nearer 2/3’s of the population. If someone from Wexford wanted to get to an airport in Portarlington by train they would have to go through Dublin to do so. The same would apply for anyone from any other part of Ireland that did not live on the train line that went through Portarlington on the way to Dublin. 





aircobra19 said:


> Heres a thought. Maybe there's more than one meaning to the term Landlocked?
> 
> Even if I'm not using it correctly, its pretty obvious what I meant, so what is served by a comment like that?


 Fair enough, but I didn’t find your comments perfectly obvious. 





aircobra19 said:


> Considering the overloaded train network all feeding into Dublin, and going through Dublin to get to anywhere else in the country cramming more people on it, doesn't appeal to be me tbh. Even assuming if you are going for an early morning flight that you could a train early enough.


 See my first point; most of the country would have to go through Dublin anyway. Wherever the airport was built transport links to Dublin would be a major priority since it is the largest population centre in the country. 

What is needed is a proper train service from Dublin city centre to the airport and the continuation of the upgrade to the national road network. This is a very small country with a very low population density. We should not delude ourselves that it is otherwise.


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## aircobra19 (10 May 2008)

Purple said:


> There are massive economies of scale in the aviation industry which are particularly important in small regional airports (like Dublin airport).  The reality is that there is no other location that is nearer 2/3’s of the population. If someone from Wexford wanted to get to an airport in Portarlington by train they would have to go through Dublin to do so. The same would apply for anyone from any other part of Ireland that did not live on the train line that went through Portarlington on the way to Dublin.



Satellites airports seem to work well enough in other countries. Obviously Ryanair favour the approach of having some competition. Not that I'm a fan of RA. 

Travelling by train or by car I can't imagine any journey that requires you to go through Dublin and onto the airport that wouldn't be quicker by car if you didn't have to go through gridlocked Dublin. Considering that you have the overhead in time of getting to the train and waiting for it. Then switching trains and waiting again, and that trains do not always run when you want them to.


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## CGorman (11 May 2008)

rabbit said:


> somewhere between Mullingar and the M50 would be ideal.  That would be more central to most people.



Perhaps if the mullingar - athlone rail line was reopened and an airport constructed near Moate all you'd need is CIE to operate a proper high speed train service (like 150mph) and the sky would be the limit... Galway, Athlone, Mullingar, Dublin City Center all directly connected to a top class airport with loads of room to expand... at the relatively crap speed of 150mph, it would be...

just 26min from airport to Dublin City Center
just 27min from airport  to Galway City Center
just 10min from airport to Mullingar
just 4min from airport to Athlone 

Maybe now that our good friend Brian is in power we'll finally get an airport in the midlands!

PS: The official government strategy is to increase the population in the Athlone/Mullingar/Tullamore triangle to 250,000 in the medium term... surely that population justifies a small airport at very least 

PS: Such a system would directly link smaller towns such as Maynooth, Kilcock, Enfield, Leixlip, Clonsilla, Ballinasloe, & Athenry in under 25min to the airport... along with indirect rail connections to Longford, Sligo, Roscommon, Castlebar, Tullamore, etc. in much less than 1hr...


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## ajapale (11 May 2008)

I still think Portarlington/Portlaoise would be a better option when you consider DA is in North Co Dublin. Portarlington/Portlaoise would better serve the South than would Mullingar or Athlone.


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## CGorman (12 May 2008)

Theres probably a need for a "london city" style mini airport in south dublin in addition to a big new airport... it should be built in south dublin... westin airport really..


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## aircobra19 (12 May 2008)

Weston is pretty much in the suburbs now. Its too close IMO. Ok for small biz jets but not for anything bigger.


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## Sunny (12 May 2008)

Purple said:


> What is needed is a proper train service from Dublin city centre to the airport and the continuation of the upgrade to the national road network. This is a very small country with a very low population density. We should not delude ourselves that it is otherwise.


 
Agree with this totally. Improve the access to Dublin Airport and it is totally sufficient for this Country's needs. Also I am not sure why people say Dublin airport is landlocked with limited scope for development. The creation of Dublin Airport was an example of foreward planning that I don't think has been since as the amount of land set aside for future development was more than sufficient. They are looking to build a new city on existing airport lands so the DAA obviously don't feel that they are running out of space. Maybe the day will come when Dublin Airport can't cope with future expansion but we are a long way from that.


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## csirl (12 May 2008)

Dublin Airport does not serve the entire country - it's purpose is to serve Dublin. Therefore is does not make sense to build it in the midlands so it can be closer to people who live outside Dublin. In the days of Aer Rianta, all airports served the population as a whole. But in recent years, our Government has determined that airport authorities should not serve the entire country, so DAA mission is only to serve the Dublin area.

The 2/3 of the population who live outside the greater Dublin area have their own airports called Cork, Shannon and Knock. 

Now, if you were going to build and airport that serves the entire island, the most sensible place to build it would be just off the M1 motorway as this motorway links the two principal population centres in Ireland - Dublin & Belfast. Surprise, surprise, this is where the airport is. I admit that it is closer to Dublin than the centre of population would be - is probably somewhere a little further north than the airport location, but its close enough.


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## rabbit (12 May 2008)

csirl said:


> Dublin Airport does not serve the entire country - it's purpose is to serve Dublin. .


 
There is life outside Dublin.   Many of the people who use Dublin Airport come from / live 30 or 50 or 70 miles north-west or southwest of it, for example.   In fact to catch flights to certain destinations some customers of Dublin airport have to travel there by road from the far flung corners of the west coast, for example.   Nobody - but nobody who uses Dublin airport lives  directly  30 or 50 or 70 miles n.e or s.e of it, as in that exact direction they would be living in the sea.


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## csirl (12 May 2008)

> There is life outside Dublin.


 
And there are other International airports in Ireland. I'm sure if people used their local airport more often, the range of services and destinations would expand.


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## aircobra19 (12 May 2008)

The topic isn't about moving Dublin airport. But rather than dragging the whole country through Dublin, to sit in queues on the M50/M1, or stand on the train for 2 or 3 hours. Then stand in queues in departures in Dublin, would it not make sense to distribute that traffic, from a point more equidistant (approx) to the whole country. 



> ...Due to the phenomenal growth experienced at Dublin Airport in recent years, the facility is chronically congested.[7] 'Catch-up' has been a feature of how the authorities have been dealing with the growth in demand. One part or another of the airport has been a building site for the past two decades. Despite massive building works and extensions, it is widely accepted that the existing terminal building and infrastructure are insufficient to deal with the volume of passengers. ..


 


> ..Concerns remain that the airport's road network will become further congested until the Metro to the airport is up and running (see below) and the new road network is completed in 2011... According to the Dublin Airport Authority the new parallel runway needs to be operational by arond 2012 to ensure that the airfield at Dublin Airport continues to operate effectively and airline operations are not subjected to growing delays on arrival and departure....


 


> ...The plans for Terminal 2 were met with objections from those who argued that, once built, it could not be extended to provide any additional capacity, owing to its location. Indeed, the proposed location of T2 would reduce the capacity of T1 because airbridges and departure gates would have to be removed from Pier C to provide space for aircraft stands at T2. It is argued that a second terminal should be located between the main runway and the proposed parallel runway. This arrangement, adopted by major hub airports such as Dallas-Fort Worth and Hartsfield-Jackson Atlanta, would provide space for T2 to expand and provide additional capacity before a third terminal would be required. ...


 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_Airport


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## Purple (12 May 2008)

aircobra19 said:


> The topic isn't about moving Dublin airport. But rather than dragging the whole country through Dublin, to sit in queues on the M50/M1, or stand on the train for 2 or 3 hours. Then stand in queues in departures in Dublin, would it not make sense to distribute that traffic, from a point more equidistant (approx) to the whole country.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



From your links it appears that there is plenty of room at Dublin airport, it just has to be used properly. It also looks like the transport infrastructure will be in place long before any new airport would be finished (and quite probably started).
Dublin may need a second airport but it is a small city so I really don't see a strong case for one.
As for grip-lock etc; there is much exaggeration about M50 delays etc.


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## Sunny (12 May 2008)

aircobra19 said:


> The topic isn't about moving Dublin airport. But rather than dragging the whole country through Dublin, to sit in queues on the M50/M1, or stand on the train for 2 or 3 hours. Then stand in queues in departures in Dublin, would it not make sense to distribute that traffic, from a point more equidistant (approx) to the whole country.


 

But every country is the same for the majority of international flights. Look at France. Most people still have to go through Paris. In Italy, they have to go through Rome. Germany, through Frankfurt. Spain, through Madrid. It makes much more sense to improve the links between Dublin airport and the rest of the country through the better use of regional airports, better road network and direct rail link between Dublin airport, Dublin city and the mainline rail stations at Heuston and Connolly. There is no way an airport in the middle of the country would attract sufficient business if it had to compete with the exisiting Dublin airport.


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## aircobra19 (12 May 2008)

Purple said:


> From your links it appears that there is plenty of room at Dublin airport, it just has to be used properly. It also looks like the transport infrastructure will be in place long before any new airport would be finished (and quite probably started).
> Dublin may need a second airport but it is a small city so I really don't see a strong case for one.
> As for grip-lock etc; there is much exaggeration about M50 delays etc.


 
Then I either cross over the M50 every day or a very long skinny carpark. 

It was just a thought, when you hear people of travelling up to Dublin to get a flight, or people in Dublin complaining about the queues to get to, and in Dublin Airport. Also if theres a demand for a new runway, new terminal, that seems to suggest the demand is there.


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## ubiquitous (12 May 2008)

The biggest benefit of a new airport would be that it would provide much-needed competition for the current monopoly.


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## woodseb (12 May 2008)

there is a fast rail link in the offing for Dublin airport from city centre, putting a terminal in the sticks outside dublin would not get anyone to the airport any quicker....if you live in a rural area you can't complain that you aren't close to an international airport - its the same in every country


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## shnaek (12 May 2008)

woodseb said:


> there is a fast rail link in the offing for Dublin airport from city centre, putting a terminal in the sticks outside dublin would not get anyone to the airport any quicker....if you live in a rural area you can't complain that you aren't close to an international airport - its the same in every country



I can fly to Prestwick airport and be in Glasgow city centre in 45 mins on a train. The journey is quick and cheap. This isn't possible with Dublin. 

I don't think anyone is complaining about not being close to an airport. I think the point people are making is that Dublin airport is a bloody mess, it appears to be poorly run (very poorly if compared to Singapore or Hong Kong airports - also small trading countries there) and does it make more sense to pour money into this airport, or build another one on a greenfield site beside an already existing rail line and close to a motorway?


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## woodseb (12 May 2008)

shnaek said:


> I can fly to Prestwick airport and be in Glasgow city centre in 45 mins on a train. The journey is quick and cheap. This isn't possible with Dublin.
> 
> I don't think anyone is complaining about not being close to an airport. I think the point people are making is that Dublin airport is a bloody mess, it appears to be poorly run (very poorly if compared to Singapore or Hong Kong airports - also small trading countries there) and does it make more sense to pour money into this airport, or build another one on a greenfield site beside an already existing rail line and close to a motorway?


 
hong kong & singapore are small trading countries?  they're not even close!

there will be a quick and cheap rail service with a new terminal at dublin sooner than another one will realistically be built elsewhere - can't see the point of a debtate


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## aircobra19 (12 May 2008)

woodseb said:


> hong kong & singapore are small trading countries? they're not even close!
> 
> there will be a quick and cheap rail service with a new terminal at dublin sooner than another one will realistically be built elsewhere - can't see the point of a debtate


 
RyanAir said they'd pay a new one. I wonder will the Govt be able to pay for the metro... We might be waiting. 

Consider the Tunnel


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## woodseb (12 May 2008)

aircobra19 said:


> RyanAir said they'd pay a new one. I wonder will the Govt be able to pay for the metro... We might be waiting.
> 
> Consider the Tunnel


 
if ryanair pay for anything, it will be a shed in a field - not an airport with world class transport links


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## aircobra19 (12 May 2008)

woodseb said:


> if ryanair pay for anything, it will be a shed in a field - not an airport with world class transport links


 
Just like Dublin doesn't have then?


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## woodseb (13 May 2008)

aircobra19 said:


> Just like Dublin doesn't have then?


 
so what's your point? 

ryanair are not interested in getting people quickly to and from the airport, it's a central part of their strategy to fly to a secondary ariport and bus people onwards. they are interested in low landing fees. anyone who thinks they will build a nice new airport with transport links is in dream land


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## aircobra19 (13 May 2008)

My point was Dublin Airport doesn't have "world class transport links".

Dublin City for that matter doesn't have "world class trasport links".


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## shnaek (13 May 2008)

woodseb said:


> hong kong & singapore are small trading countries?  they're not even close!
> 
> there will be a quick and cheap rail service with a new terminal at dublin sooner than another one will realistically be built elsewhere - can't see the point of a debtate



There's always time for a good old debtate  

The population of Singapore is approximately 4.68 million. The population of Hong Kong is 6.9 million. Both of these countries have world class airports. (Do we have anything world class, apart from Croke Park?) Both of these countries built new airports in recent times. These airports were built on greenfield sites. 

Unfortunately we here in Ireland concentrate on mediocrity. We should seek to follow the best. I agree with the points made earlier about Dublin airport needing to be close to Dublin. But close means time, rather than distance. Time is the important factor. 

As far as high speed rail to Dublin airport - let's be frank - we have a rubbish record on such projects. It will probably end up double the price, and double the timeframe. Tickets will be ridiculously expensive, and you'll have to pay again for a connecting Luas and again for a connecting bus/train. The rail gauge will be different to Dart, Luas and intercity. If we could count on the government and public service to deliver a good value rail link to the city centre, then I would be more easily convinced of the merits of your arguement.


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## csirl (13 May 2008)

> My point was Dublin doesn't have "world class transport links".


 
However bad the transport links in Dublin are, they are much worse in other parts of the country.


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## woodseb (13 May 2008)

aircobra19 said:


> My point was Dublin doesn't have "world class transport links".


 
fair enough but you've failed to show how portarlington international airport would have any either - which is the point of the thread in the first place


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## aircobra19 (13 May 2008)

The primary means of transport around Ireland, and Dublin is driving. Its easier to drive to something not in Dublin. 

I think thats the crux of my thinking. Probably flawed but there you go. While I'd love to have the choice of using a train. I think unless you are on a train line already, with enough cpapacity and frequency, you'll be waiting an awful long time to get that anywhere in this country. Based on our "track" record thus far. 

I use the train a bit from D.15. In the 20yrs or so I've been using it, its no quicker, its been standing room only for all of that time, stations on route have either no facilities or 3rd world facilities, and my ticket still can't be used for any other public transport on the route. Its still faster to drive, 95% of the time, even in the grid lock. To be honest its actually quicker to cycle my 11/13 mile commute. Considering 20yrs ago travelling and working in Europe as a student, I saw that most of Europes train/public transport systems had all the things we are still looking for here. 

Thats why I'm not holding my breath for this world class rail link to Dublin Airport.


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