# Advice sought on building an Extension



## EamoRath (12 Oct 2010)

Hi,

I am an the initial stages of planning a 40-50sqm extension to the back & rear of my house, incorporating an open plan kitchen/dining & utility area and changes to the existing downstairs bathroom.
I met with my first architect today which was interesting & a little shocking at the same time. They told me that on average an ext of this size finished to a medium spec ( incl kitchen) would set youy back €100k.
I was hoping I could get it finished to a good standard for €70-80k - maybe I am dreaming and need to save a little more!!

They qouted me a fee of €7k to design, draft & submit drawings to planning stage. Does this sound expensive to you?
I would be interested to know if any of the contributors here could recommend an architect which they have used in the dublin area?

If you were to engage the architect to organise & deliver the full project what premium would you expect to pay for this service?


Eamorath


----------



## Brendan Burgess (12 Oct 2010)

You will get a much better response to your question if you  the title of your post in line with the Posting Guidelines. 

Please read the  before posting again on Askaboutmoney.

Any responses to posts with meaningless titles will be removed.

If the title is not edited within a reasonable time, the post will be deleted.

Brendan
Administrator


----------



## OneAndOnly (12 Oct 2010)

Emo, I'm getting approx 75m2 extensions to a standard Dublin semi D.
.  
I got 16 (kid you not) architect quotes for planning only service, they ranged from 500-1800 or thereabouts.

Planning is through and I hope to start building next week (or the week after max).  I got 9 builders quotes.  The ranged from 80k to 160K!!!


----------



## EamoRath (12 Oct 2010)

HI OAO,

Would you mind sharing with me the names of the better architects you encountered?
Did they give you some good advice on design etc?

Eamorath


----------



## onq (12 Oct 2010)

€500 is a very low level of fees to produce a planning application.
Even if it were possible to produce one in a week, with no holidays and assuming it was possible to get on every week to do, it would result in an annual income of €26,000.00.

Architects working for such low fees will find it difficult to support themselves or their families, while at the same time running an office, assuming it takes 30-50% of fee income to cover overheads, PI cover, travel expenses, depreciation, wear and tear, replacement equipment, tax, etc.

That having been said I feel that 7K is high fees just to get to planning stage, with €3.5K or €4K around about right, given a decent lead in set of discussions and at least one pre-planning meeting, with some alternative plans and abortive work, and allowing for the fact that you won't get one a week.

---------------------

In relation to the costs, we recently costed a new build to around €100 per square foot in Dublin and it was fairly tightly costed.
Smaller sites tend to have fewer economies of scale and more importantly there are hidden costs at foundation and roof level.
Taking these together with a kitchen could push overall costs above €100 per square foot in the current market.

Back in 2008 we went out to tender to three builders to do an extension.

One was too busy, one came in at over €200K, one at over €150K.
The size was similar to yours, with some design features.
All the windows were one-off and it had a lantern light.

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon                        as a defence or support - in and of itself -   should       legal        action    be      taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in                        Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports    on     the         matters    at      hand.


----------



## j26 (12 Oct 2010)

If it's under 40 sq metres (and meets certain other conditions) it may be exempt from planning.

Consider whether ensuring that it will come within the exemption would save a significant sum.


----------



## Sconhome (13 Oct 2010)

You should bear in mind that just because it is potentially exempt from planning approval does not mean you should neglect the advice and benefit of having a professional building team, including, an architect working with you.


----------



## onq (13 Oct 2010)

+1 what Sconhome has said and I note teh following also; -

If its entirely to "the back and rear" and the house has not be extended previously, you may be eligible to claim that this is exempted development.

For the avoidance of doubt you and/or your architect should be talking to your planning officer with your design drawings of the proposed development, showing him anything else that has been done to the house.

There seems to be a growing reluctance by the local authority to talk with non-archtiects about design matters, possibly because of the influence of the Building Control Act 2007 and Registration.

-----------------

Even if its exempted, I would personally advise client to seek a Section 5 Declaration to this effect from the local authority.

It can give comfort if anyone decides to try and stop you legally or by writing to the local authority complaining about the work.

If you do need to go for planning don't worry about it - any saving by avoiding planning will be relatively minor in terms of money.

The planning fees are minimal and the design drawings will already be done.

You can use the 14 week gap between planning lodgement and grant of  permission after signing off on the design drawings for production of  the tender drawings and sourcing materials and looking at the work of  prospective builders.

-----------------

Do not, in the name of saving money, fail to get some tenders drawings and at least an outline specification for the work, listing everything that needs to be done.

Without at least a good set of tender drawings and specification you are leaving yourself wide open to being fleeced with "extras".

You also need to enter into a contract and I recommend the RIAI forms as offering the best balance all round.

Your architect can advise you on which form to use.

-----------------

If you do go for planning, then yes, you need to agree the design before lodging with both planners and neighbours and yes, you are potentially exposed to an appeal,.

These are the normal processes and risks associated with any significant development.

Personally I prefer to get permission *or* a Section 5 declaration that the works are exempted from the local authority.

That way when it comes it comes to the eventual sell-on and the certification, there is a surety in the buyers mind that the local authority were fully aware of the development and its status is assured.

-----------------

Clients don't always listen of course and this had led to one upset  where my advices were not taken and the Section 5 Declaration backed me  up.

Telling a client "I told you so" is never a productive situation,  especially where they are business people but not commercial developers.

Business people tend to be insulated from people who tell them "no" or  "its not permitted", but with local authorities this is exactly what  gets said on occasion.

-----------------

And no, the solution is not for the architect to write a cert contradicting the local authority, whose job it it to enforce planning law. 

The next step would be to apply for retention and hope damage has not been done to their professional relationship or the clients previous good name.

Local authorities are made up of personalities like any other entity and they can get ticked off with people who intentionally breach planning law.


ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon                         as a defence or support - in and of itself -    should       legal        action    be      taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in                         Real Life with rights to inspect and issue  reports    on     the         matters    at      hand.


----------



## RKQ (13 Oct 2010)

+ ONQ & Sconhome above.
But OP must remember that even if the extension is exempt from planning it is *not exempt* from Building Control. 

All new build must comply fully with the Building Regulations. The House Owner is legally responsible to ensure compliance with the Building Regulations.

Why would anyone spend €70,000 - €100,000 without professional advice?
Personally I would not buy a €2000 second hand car without retaining a Mechanic to check it out for me.

OP should get at least 3 written quotes from experienced Professionals.


----------

