# bitcoin



## Firefly

Hi all,

Just wondering what your take is on bitcoin...fad or future?

Interesting (enough) article here.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/how-bitcoin-may-have-more-impact-than-the-internet-2015-2?r=US

The jury is out for me. I'll be the first to admit that I am not an early adopter of a lot of things anyway though...even though I work in IT I can be quite the luddite!

Firefly.


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## Duke of Marmalade

Sounds like the greatest load of baloney to me.  That clip which is presumably promoting Bitcoin states bluntly that it is not for you or me who have bank accounts and credit cards but it's for those folk in Africa and places that have smartphones but no bank accounts.

This idea that it is limited to 21M and therefore its scarcity makes it valuable just doesn't gel.  I am sure that certain strains of the Siberian pox are extremely rare, doesn't make them valuable.  And the idea that the money supply should be capped is oh so old hat - the Gold standard was abandoned a long time ago.  A capped money supply means permanent deflation if we can manage to deliver the technology based productivity driven growth that has been the norm (more or less) for some time now.


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## fpalb

Duke of Marmalade said:


> Sounds like the greatest load of baloney to me.  That clip which is presumably promoting Bitcoin states bluntly that it is not for you or me who have bank accounts and credit cards but it's for those folk in Africa and places that have smartphones but no bank accounts.



Well, that's just his opinion, Bitcoin can be used by you if you like as it's a free (as in speech) and open system. I think his point is that Bitcoin will currently appeal more to those who have the most to gain from using it which is people with no access to, or grievances with, the existing financial services and banking, for whatever reason. 



Duke of Marmalade said:


> This idea that it is limited to 21M and therefore its scarcity makes it valuable just doesn't gel.  I am sure that certain strains of the Siberian pox are extremely rare, doesn't make them valuable.  And the idea that the money supply should be capped is oh so old hat - the Gold standard was abandoned a long time ago.  A capped money supply means permanent deflation if we can manage to deliver the technology based productivity driven growth that has been the norm (more or less) for some time now.



Anything scarce and useful will be valuable to some degree. The scarcity doesn't in itself make it valuable, but it is necessary and is notable because Bitcoin was the first scarce digital internet-transferable asset without dependence on any company to enforce the scarcity. As for whether our current economic models which rely on permanent growth and have proven to result in boom-bust cycles are worse than what a Bitcoin economy might look like is a matter of opinion. Personally, I'm not opposed to trying something new, especially if it's by a matter of choice not force.

Bitcoin is a technological breakthrough - for 20+ years people have been trying to invent a digital cash system and the invention of crypto-currency finally makes it possible. A global, free to access, incorruptible ledger, with cheap instant transactions and bitcoin the currency as the first 'app'. Maybe Bitcoin will continue to be the leader, maybe an even better crypto-currency emerges, but in my opinion there's no going back now, the 'internet of money and finance' is coming one way or another and it's going to disrupt related industries just like the internet itself disrupted the communication and media industries.


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## Purple

fpalb said:


> Well, that's just his opinion, Bitcoin can be used by you if you like as it's a free (as in speech) and open system. I think his point is that Bitcoin will currently appeal more to those who have the most to gain from using it which is people with no access to, or grievances with, the existing financial services and banking, for whatever reason.


here are plenty of ways to hold and move money electronically without having a bank account or even a bank. Kenya is the world leader in this with M-PESA handling around 25% of the country's GNP. I don't know much about Bitcoin but if that's the hook then it doesn't bode well for its future!


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## fpalb

Purple said:


> here are plenty of ways to hold and move money electronically without having a bank account or even a bank. Kenya is the world leader in this with M-PESA handling around 25% of the country's GNP. I don't know much about Bitcoin but if that's the hook then it doesn't bode well for its future!



I think M-PESA is indeed a good example of the trend away from traditional banking and how developing nations will leapfrog some of the infrastructure the first world uses. However, the M-PESA system is still a closed system, so in effect the telecom operators are the banks. You can't use it in Ireland right? Bitcoin is permission-less and therefore immediately global. Interestingly, someone already built a Bitcoin to M-PESA service: https://www.bitpesa.co/


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## Purple

fpalb said:


> I think M-PESA is indeed a good example of the trend away from traditional banking and how developing nations will leapfrog some of the infrastructure the first world uses. However, the M-PESA system is still a closed system, so in effect the telecom operators are the banks. You can't use it in Ireland right? Bitcoin is permission-less and therefore immediately global. Interestingly, someone already built a Bitcoin to M-PESA service: https://www.bitpesa.co/


It's a small leap to link M-PESA to Irish banks. If Vodafone or O2 link into it then the leap will be smaller, or even unnecessary. There's no reason why the same system couldn't operate here. I see this as a bigger threat to traditional banking than Bitcoin.


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## fpalb

Purple said:


> It's a small leap to link M-PESA to Irish banks. If Vodafone or O2 link into it then the leap will be smaller, or even unnecessary. There's no reason why the same system couldn't operate here. I see this as a bigger threat to traditional banking than Bitcoin.


If it's a such a small leap, why haven't they done it? The M-PESA wikipedia page says "It is unlikely, as of May 2014, however, that the service will expand into Western Europe anytime soon." Maybe I'm wrong, but I suspect it's because of the legal hassles and cost of operating in a 1st world country, which will always be the case for any company-backed system.


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## Purple

fpalb said:


> If it's a such a small leap, why haven't they done it? The M-PESA wikipedia page says "It is unlikely, as of May 2014, however, that the service will expand into Western Europe anytime soon." Maybe I'm wrong, but I suspect it's because of the legal hassles and cost of operating in a 1st world country, which will always be the case for any company-backed system.


The same applied to Currency Fair and other exchange companies like them. When the market momentum is  there it will happen, even if it's a new platform doing the same thing.


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## Duke of Marmalade

Please somebody tell me what exactly is Bitcoin, not what it is used for.

If I had a Bitcoin what would it look like?  What about it would make me value it?  The video clip states that gold has no intrinsic value.  How very wrong that is.  Sure you can't eat gold and it ain't very useful for industrial purposes.  But it is beautiful, heavy and permanent and it makes lovely jewellery.  Gold has been valued by humanity for ever - many have died and been killed for it.  It is not valuable by convention - it is valuable intrinsically.  I really can't see me ever drooling over my hoard of Bitcoin.


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## fpalb

Duke of Marmalade said:


> Please somebody tell me what exactly is Bitcoin, not what it is used for.



To understand this it's first important to understand that money is just memory - a way of knowing who did some work and is storing the value of it to spend later, or who owes value to someone else. This is why we can now operate without most money existing in physical form at all. You log into your online banking and send some money to another account, what happens? It's not as if they put some cash in a truck and drive it to the other persons bank. A digital ledger gets updated, your balance is reduced by 100, the other persons balance is increased by 100. The transactions in a digital ledger are the money.

So, Bitcoin is also just a digital ledger that exists on the Internet. It's public and balances are deduced and verified by the history of all transactions that have been made. Everyone running the full Bitcoin software has a copy of every transaction that's ever been done. Anyone is free to run software to participate and anyone is free to create a new account giving them the ability to receive and then send Bitcoins. Bitcoins themselves as such don't actually exist, we say that if someone 'has bitcoins' what we really mean is that there is a positive balance on an account in the Bitcoin ledger and that person has the key required to spend them. Each 'account' consists of a public key and a private key. Think of it like an email address and a password . Anyone with your public email address can send you email but only you have the private password so only you can send from your address.

A public key (or account address) looks like this 1QGmXgfdW6DErRZbJDEVRecQedhj84npLf  . Because the ledger is public we can even see that that particular address has a balance of 0.03 BTC : https://blockchain.info/address/1QGmXgfdW6DErRZbJDEVRecQedhj84npLf  however only the person with the corresponding private key for that address can spend that 0.03 bitcoins and they can do so without being stopped by anyone, and I really mean only that person, there's no company or authority that spend, freeze or seize those Bitcoins.

Bitcoin takes some time to get your head around, because in many ways it's like turning what we're used to with banks inside out.


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## Purple

fpalb said:


> To understand this it's first important to understand that money is just memory - a way of knowing who did some work and is storing the value of it to spend later, or who owes value to someone else


In what way does Bitcoin represent the "memory" of work done or value added? What is its value derived from?


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## fpalb

Purple said:


> In what way does Bitcoin represent the "memory" of work done or value added? What is its value derived from?



Why is one piece of coloured paper worth 50euro and another worth 10euro? Because of a common agreement that we can use certain pieces of paper as money. Originally there was no paper money, things occurring in nature that had the properties required for money (scarce, hard to counterfeit, easy to recognise, portable, durable, fungible, divisible, unit of account)  were used as money,  gold and silver emerging as the most common as they fit these properties more than any other naturally occurring thing. At some point though it was realised that fiat money could improve upon some aspects such as portability and divisibility and it originally had value as it was an IOU for gold or silver. Paper notes were a man-made technology for money. Eventually people realised that the gold backing the paper didn't matter and nowadays no money is backed by gold, because there was never any need for the actual gold itself as money anyway. We don't need to use physical objects with 'intrinsic value' as money, we just need a technology that works as money, that has the properties of money - lets us store value, lets us make payments. Bitcoin is the first pure digital technology that can be used as money in this manner.

And now we get back to the second part of the post prior to yours:


Duke of Marmalade said:


> The video clip states that gold has no intrinsic value.  How very wrong that is.  Sure you can't eat gold and it ain't very useful for industrial purposes.  But it is beautiful, heavy and permanent and it makes lovely jewellery.  Gold has been valued by humanity for ever - many have died and been killed for it.  It is not valuable by convention - it is valuable intrinsically.  I really can't see me ever drooling over my hoard of Bitcoin.



Thought experiment: if gold was plentiful and renewable, for example if it grew on trees, it would still be shiny and permanent and make jewelry, but it would not be scarce, would central banks still hold gold? could it still be used as money?

Though experiment 2: If the gold bars that the central bank keep are never used to make jewelry, i.e. the use of their intrinsic value is never applied, then why does it matter?

There is an interesting paper about Money and Memory: https://www.minneapolisfed.org/research/sr/sr218.pdf for anyone interested.


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## Duke of Marmalade

_fbalb_  thanks for that, and for the fascinating links.  So that is a close as I will get to seeing or touching a Bitcoin (well .03BTC)

I absolutely accept that today's currency is purely virtual - mainly entries on bank ledgers with intrinsically valueless paper notes in circulation.

But this money is backed by real economic claims.  If I have a deposit in the bank "society" owes me that "money".  Others in turn owe the bank that money.  My deposit is a genuine claim on society to deliver me goods and services when I chose to call in my dues.  Of course, this relies on the continued integrity of the system but this is more than a mere confidence trick or a reliance on the debtors in society being trustworthy.  There is a whole culture and legislative framework to make it very much in the debtors interest to honour their debts.  The main treat to the "value" of my deposit is the Government printing the stuff but these days this threat seems also to have been abated (let's not talk QE, that's somewhere else).

In short, my deposit is not merely an electronic entry in a ledger, it is a legal claim on goods and services from the economy.  Gold on the other hand does not give me a claim on society.  I rely on its intrinsic value to make that exchange.

Now BTC has neither one nor the other.  I can see that it has absolutely no intrinsic value.  Whilst I was fascinated to see that little bit of .03 BTC I am not tempted to look at it again and as for its scarcity, I couldn't care less.  But neither is it a claim on any economic substance.  There are no debtors behind it.  If I have a deposit I can with very real meaning say that I am owed something real.  With BTC, I am owed nothing I have merely a record of some transaction.  That might work in Africa, it ain't for simple folk like me.


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## fpalb

Duke of Marmalade said:


> But this money is backed by real economic claims.  If I have a deposit in the bank "society" owes me that "money".  Others in turn owe the bank that money.  My deposit is a genuine claim on society to deliver me goods and services when I chose to call in my dues.  Of course, this relies on the continued integrity of the system but this is more than a mere confidence trick or a reliance on the debtors in society being trustworthy.  There is a whole culture and legislative framework to make it very much in the debtors interest to honour their debts.  The main treat to the "value" of my deposit is the Government printing the stuff but these days this threat seems also to have been abated (let's not talk QE, that's somewhere else).



I disagree with this "My deposit is a genuine claim on society to deliver me goods and services when I chose to call in my dues"

Sure I can tell you how much goods and services 100euro will buy you today, I can tell with less certainty how much it would buy you in 6 months (especially given the QE that is starting), and even less certainty in 10 years time. In fact I can't even be sure the euro will exist in 10 years. Gold has historically been a better store of wealth than fiat monies. A ounce of gold could buy a good mans suit in roman times, and still does today. The average lifespan of fiat currencies is apparently 27 years (http://georgewashington2.blogspot.ie/2011/08/average-life-expectancy-for-fiat.html) and we know that in every case fiat currencies tend to devalue gradually (or in the end not so gradually) due to inflation over time, because the scarcity of fiat is enforced by central banks and sooner or later they give in to debasing it by printing more of it.

But anyway, I don't want to come across as too much of a doom-and-gloomer, my point is that in the long run nothing is guaranteed about the value of anything, be it fiat or gold or bitcoin.



Duke of Marmalade said:


> Now BTC has neither one nor the other.  I can see that it has absolutely no intrinsic value.  Whilst I was fascinated to see that little bit of .03 BTC I am not tempted to look at it again and as for its scarcity, I couldn't care less.  But neither is it a claim on any economic entity.  There are no debtors behind it.  If I have a deposit I can with very real meaning say that I am owed something real.  With BTC, I am owed nothing I have merely a record of some transaction.  That might work in Africa, it ain't for simple folk like me.



The apparent value bitcoin provides will vary from person to person. Some may value it because they want to make online purchases without sharing sensitive personal information (such as credit card details), some may value it because they are denied access to banks/paypal etc. There are a lot of possible applications both at the B2B and consumer level . The bottom line is the bitcoin payment system provides a cheap, fast, secure, global payment system. Many find this useful. To use this payment system you must have bitcoins, and bitcoins are limited in supply, therefore scarce. Anything both useful and scarce will have value in this world. If the utility of the bitcoin payment system for whatever reason goes to zero, bitcoins will be worthless.


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## Purple

fpalb said:


> The bottom line is the bitcoin payment system provides a cheap, fast, secure, global payment system. Many find this useful. To use this payment system you must have bitcoins, and bitcoins are limited in supply, therefore scarce. Anything both useful and scarce will have value in this world. If the utility of the bitcoin payment system for whatever reason goes to zero, bitcoins will be worthless.


That's the point; it only has value as long as people accept it has value. Without it another payment system will be used, its disappearance would have little or no impact on society or trade. This may well be because it hasn't been around for very long but it is not a new phenomenon; it is a variation on what's there already.

The same cannot be said for money as we know it now. In that it has intrinsic value in practical terms.

I don't see what it's USP is. If it gets traction and becomes engrained then it will acquire real value but at the moment I don't see its worth other than its speculative value.


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## Duke of Marmalade

_fpalb_ I agree that the integrity of money as a claim on society is dependent on central banks managing its supply in line with the economy's capacity to honour those claims.  Nonetheless, it is a most marvellous and sophisticated concept and has played no small part in the massive growth in Western economies over the last century or so. I can't see how 21m BTC can ever match up to the flexibility of fiat currency in being able to adapt to an economy's needs.

Money as a claim on the economy has very real value albeit dependent on management of the price level.  The attributes you have cited for BTC have the most flimsy of value.  Would I value super slick and safe transmission?  A bit but not nearly enough to justify the face value of the BTC.  I'm afraid that despite your evangelical efforts I will remain a disbeliever.


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## fpalb

Purple said:


> That's the point; it only has value as long as people accept it has value. Without it another payment system will be used, its disappearance would have little or no impact on society or trade. This may well be because it hasn't been around for very long but it is not a new phenomenon; it is a variation on what's there already.



As a payment system, yes, it can be seen as a variation on what's there, like many at first viewed the internet as a variation on a fax machine, but bitcoin is also revolutionary in many ways, as I'll discuss more below.



Purple said:


> I don't see what it's USP is. If it gets traction and becomes engrained then it will acquire real value but at the moment I don't see its worth other than its speculative value.



How much traction is enough traction? Bitcoin is still small on a global scale, but has it reached critical mass yet? I'm not sure, probably not, but here are some numbers: There are  about 13,848,000 of the eventual 21m in existence, trading at $240 giving a market cap of over $3 billion. Transaction numbers are steadily increasing, there are about 100,000 Bitcoin transactions per day lately. Last year Microsoft started accepting Bitcoin becoming the largest company to do so. $350m in venture capital funding to Bitcoin related companies last year, and another $100 already this year, when there had only been about $100m in total prior to 2014, so what are these companies going to do....

I guess I haven't really explored a lot of the possible benefits of Bitcoin in previous posts so lets do that. I'll try to explain why Bitcoin is more like the Internet of money than money for the Internet.

*Credit cards*
Credit cards are fundamentally flawed as an online payment mechanism and they were never designed for it. They involve giving your private payment info to the merchant and hoping they don't take too much or store and leak your details. This is like walking into a shop and handing the cashier your wallet and hoping they only take the right amount and don't scan your drivers licence. With Bitcoin the transaction to the merchant is signed with your private key *locally*  and then communicated - your private key never leaves your device. There is no private information given to the merchant, there can be no subsequent payments taken from you.

The cost of credit card fraud is usually hidden from consumers, but baked into the prices of everything we buy as the merchant is on the hook for significant fees from the CC companies to cover this fraud, not to mention possibly on the hook for the full amount for purchases deemed to have been made with fraudulent cards. If everything you bought was 2% cheaper (or maybe more for some merchants) with Bitcoin because merchants didn't have to worry about CC fees or charge-backs would it encourage you? Bitcoin can be better than CCs in this case, but I accept that there may be other solutions too, either way, I think CCs are on the way out, and we'll be making most payments with our phones or some dedicated hardware wallet device within 10 years.

For example, I found [broken link removed] as an example, you can go to that site and make a bet with Bitcoin without creating an account or providing any details whatsoever. It's the online equivalent of walking into a bookies in person. This is impossible with credit cards or even something like paypal.

*Programmable Money*
Bitcoin is the first natively programmable money, so this is an entirely new concept for us. You can make transactions that are timelocked so something like a trust fund could be natively implemented in the money itself, no 3rd party or fees needed. Bitcoin addresses can also have multiple private keys. You can make an account that needs m of n keys, e.g. 3 of 5 keys or 6 of 10 keys. Again this is native to protocol itself, and has many uses for things such as joint accounts, corporate accounts and provides a way of securing Bitcoin like nothing else on earth can be secured. Imagine making a 3 of 5 key account. One key on your phone, one key at your parents house, one key in a safe deposit box at a bank locally, one in a safe deposit box in Switzerland etc. Any 3 of the keys are needed to spend the coins. You can't secure cash or gold like this.

You can make trust-less escrow transactions where the escrow party can only either return the funds to the original account or complete the payment but cannot steal the money themselves. Additionally, since Bitcoin is programmable and not tied to personal identity it can be used by automated software applications, this has long been a missing part of the puzzle for autonomous agent-based software systems.

*Smart Property*
Bitcoins can be used to represent more than tokens in the Bitcoin payment system. Imagine you own a company and have a Bitcoin which you divide into 10,000 sub-units and sell. Each of these units could represent a share in the company. Dividends could be paid directly to the owners of the units without even having to know who they are. The units could also be transacted peer-to-peer by the share-holders without any stock market being needed. Imagine if these units represented property rights e.g. car or home ownership. A global public ledger can be used for more than just money. Imagine how this could replace human-based property-conveyance, stock-markets, escrow services.

People are working on all the things I've mentioned above, but it's still really early days. Even though Bitcoin is about 6 years old now, it's really only in the last year these more advanced use-cases have started emerging. In 1995 we had no idea youtube or twitter or facebook would be built on the Internet, we still don't know what the final successful applications built on Bitcoin might be.



Duke of Marmalade said:


> _fpalb_ I agree that the integrity of money as a claim on society is dependent on central banks managing its supply in line with the economy's capacity to honour those claims.  Nonetheless, it is a most marvellous and sophisticated concept and has played no small part in the massive growth in Western economies over the last century or so. I can't see how 21m BTC can ever match up to the flexibility of fiat currency in being able to adapt to an economy's needs.



Just as a note on the 21m cap. Bitcoins are already sub-divisible to 8 decimal places. The smallest unit called a Satoshi is 100,000,000th of a Bitcoin. Even more decimal places could be added if needed by a change to the software. Digital money does not suffer the same limitations of physical money in terms of divisibility. There's not going to be a problem of there not being enough for everyone.

As for how our western economies are doing, I'm no expert, but I don't take it for granted that the system we currently have is as good as it gets. The rich are getting richer in proportion to everyone else, and when the QE money tap is turned on those closest to the faucet seem to benefit the most. How come QE isn't divided fairly among the citizens bank accounts?  As someone that was fiscally responsible and has never taken a loan I resent having to pay for bank bailouts and having my savings devalued by QE because the banks are 'too big' to fail. I'm not convinced that 'voting in the other guys', 'better regulation' or any incremental changes to the system are likely to be a good enough solution. I would much prefer that we invent ways to make the banks obsolete, working around them with technology that is not as prone to human corruption. As I said before, I'm ready to try something else, I look forward to the day I can close all my bank accounts.

If nothing else I hope Bitcoin will at least force the existing system to up their game due to competition. It's 2015 and it can still take *days* to send money between digital bank accounts. Fees for financial operations that should be completely automated are ridiculous, it should cost pennies to make a stock trade not 30euro.



Duke of Marmalade said:


> Money as a claim on the economy has very real value albeit dependent on management of the price level.  The attributes you have cited for BTC have the most flimsy of value.  Would I value super slick and safe transmission?  A bit but not nearly enough to justify the face value of the BTC.  I'm afraid that despite your evangelical efforts I will remain a disbeliever.


It's still early days, I'm a big Bitcoin enthusiast but even I wouldn't risk pouring my life savings in. There is both great opportunity and great risk. At the moment I am mostly enjoying the educational journey


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## MrEarl

Hi,

Anyone in Bitcoins these days ? 

As investors, speculators, or simply for various day to day transactions over the internet ?

Whats the experience please ?


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## fpalb

MrEarl said:


> Hi,
> 
> Anyone in Bitcoins these days ?
> 
> As investors, speculators, or simply for various day to day transactions over the internet ?
> 
> Whats the experience please ?



I still am mostly as a speculative store value - the same reason people buy gold. Also used it for the odd purchase online. Bitcoin was at $240 when I posted earlier in this thread in February last year it's now at $770.


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## MrEarl

Hi,

Thanks for the reply. 

Any recommendations for who to buy & sell from ?


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## trasneoir

MrEarl said:


> Any recommendations for who to buy & sell from ?


I use cex.io

If you're looking at holding significant amounts, then you should be aware of the security implications. Because bitcoin transactions are irrevocable and easy to launder/anonymize, bitcoin is unusually vulnerable to theft.


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## MrEarl

Hello,

Many thanks for the information.  I will have a look at cex.io

I also might have a look at the possibility of spread betting, rather than actually holding bitcoins (gets you over the potential security risk of holding bitcoins although does get you a half a step closer to the blackjack table too I suppose).


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## ant dee

MrEarl said:


> Hello,
> gets you over the potential security risk of holding bitcoins although does get you a half a step closer to the blackjack table too I suppose.



Just dont hold the coins are the exchanges.
Withdraw them to your own wallets. You can even split the bitcoins in several wallets, so if your system is compromised and someone gets to steal some, they only get one part.
Or get something like https://bitcointrezor.com/ for great security and convenience.


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## tecate

Did you (or any other AAM'ers) pursue this MrEarl?  I'm thinking of placing some savings in BTC.  What exchanges should I register with to get the best possible deal in real time?

How is BTC recognised in Ireland?  Is it treated as a currency or an asset/commodity?  What are the tax implications in the event of making a profit?


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## MrEarl

Hello,

No, to be honest I was ill for much of the last few weeks so have not done anything - other than watch the value of the bitcoin go up, then come down... this one certainly isn't for widows or orphans thats for sure, but I'm still very interested and intend to progress at some stage over the next few weeks (think I'll just wait for the dust to settle a little, given recent news about China).


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## ant dee

If you want to invest in bitcoin, much like other investments, you need a long-term approach.
Swings will be heavy, but remember you are in for the long-term.

Now, provided your payment method is SEPA transfer, I advise to use an exchange like Kraken or Uphold. They have very low fees, i believe Kraken lowest, not that it matters a lot with the crazy volatility.
Send the euros, buy the bitcoins and then withdraw to your own wallets.
Bitcoin transactions are irreversible.
If you are not sure your computer is clean, well, clean it. Phones are more secure. Trezor is my wallet of choice.

If holding BTC is not enough risk for you, there are services that will offer interest for holding your bitcoin. P2P lending, margin-lending etc.
Needless to say, the risk great using those and the web is full of scams.


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## tecate

Bitcoin has risen again - now trading at it's highest level - US$1280/BTC - ahead of speculation as to the granting or otherwise of a bitcoin based ETF License.  We'll either see a further rise but more likely another sharp fall in the wake of that decision (expectations generally are that it won't be granted).


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## tecate

So license wasn't granted to the Winkelvoss twins - sharp fall on Friday upon the announcement but BTC has already recovered.


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## ant dee

a few people got scared and sold.
Faithful bitcoiners appreciated the discount and bought.

Buying bitcoins through an ETF is a bad idea anyway.


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## TheBigShort

So I just tried to buy some Bitcoin, a €100 worth, to see what all the fuss is about. A charge of €10, 10% was to be applied! I declined.
How is this cheap?


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## SirMille

Bitcoin is a decentralised trust network. First of its kind. Most don't get that bit as it's hard to understand.
It is another fiat currency. It is betaware and will eventually be overtaken by Ethereum which is government backed.

Bitcoin has some vulnerabilities such as the 51%

It is not anonymous, If you want true anonymity use Monero.

You must not leave your bitcoin with others, you must store it in your own wallet,under your own control. Don't get bitten by another MtGox.

It is Tulip season.

I will exit Bitcoin when Amazon accept it.


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## ant dee

My point was going to be, predicting cryptocurrencies is the same as stock picking / timing the market.
We don't know where they will go And if someone knew he would get rich.

And because of the small market cap and lack of regulations (I'm not sure if regulations will be bad or good...) there is a lot of market manipulation , massive volatility, alt coin scams. 
So , even harder to predict, in my opinion.


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## jim

Is Bitcoin really a game changer? Its been around for a few years now and I haven't seen much increase in fuss over it.

If it is the future then what are we waiting for?


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## SirMille

Hi Jim, it's a game changer (the underlying globally distributed/decentralised trust network)

Years ago, I initially dismissed it as more nerd money, but that was because the wired journo who explained it to me didnt have a clue.

My mistake eh.

Crypto currency market cap is huge and growing, and the number of multinationals accepting it as payment is ever increasing.


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## jim

Which multinationals accept it?

Might sound like a silly question but in a nitshell whats the adv of crypto over normal everyday currency?


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## ant dee

Not a nutshell answer but Andreas Antonopoulos is good at explaining Bitcoin. 

https://www.youtube.com/user/aantonop

Sirmille, I was meaning to say ICO s are scamming unsophisticated investors all the time.
By manipulation I meant the alt coins pumping and dumping at poloniex exchange. 
Sorry I am not good at explaining  these things , I will try and link articles and sources maybe next week.


----------



## seamless

SirMille said:


> Bitcoin is a decentralised trust network. First of its kind. Most don't get that bit as it's hard to understand.
> It is another fiat currency. It is betaware and will eventually be overtaken by Ethereum which is government backed.



Can you provide a link or other source that supports your assertion that Ethereum is government backed please ?


----------



## ant dee

Manipulation was referring to smaller alt coins yes. 
Poloniex could easily inside trade these to kick volumes up and the price.

I dont know how one could manipulate Bitcoin price. 
Maybe after they approve ETFs and stuff like that?
As it is now bitcoin is getting harder to have it's price kicked around on people s whims. Hopefully as it's market cap continues to grow We will it's volatility drop even more.

I haven't heard anything about government backing Etherium either, can you explain how you came to that conclusion ?


----------



## SirMille

No links to support it, I heard it from a crypto currency researcher while attending a presentation in CryptoValley. Could be total BS.


----------



## ant dee

I suppose it is total B.S...


----------



## SirMille

Probably!


----------



## Brendan Burgess

SirMille said:


> It is betaware and will eventually be overtaken by Ethereum which is government backed.





SirMille said:


> No links to support it, I heard it from a crypto currency researcher while attending a presentation in CryptoValley. Could be total BS.





SirMille said:


> Probably!



I think it's a good idea to stay well away with this quality of analysis. 

Brendan


----------



## joe sod

https://seekingalpha.com/article/4126873-bitcoin-unknowable-bubble

a great article by constantin gurdgiev  on bitcoin. Anyone thinking of investing in it or invested needs to read this . He makes a very convincing case about this being just another bubble. I actually read the article before I realised it was by constantin


----------



## landlord

I see the general stock market in need of a major correction....although I saw this 2 years ago and was wrong!!!

I heavily invested in physical gold and silver a few years ago and still own all of it as insurance against another financial collapse. People might not agree with this financially, but at the very least it has helped me to sleep better at night. The precious metals have been under pressure over the last few years as money that would traditionally have gone into gold and silver has instead gone into Bitcoin. Bitcoin is seen as digital gold partly due to its limited supply. I started investing in Bitcoin a few months ago and have seen some terrific gains. Any time there was a pullback I would invest more. I do believe in the event of a financial crisis either the precious metals or the cryptos will prevail. As I don't know which I am investing in both. If the crypto market were to completely collapse, I think precious metals would gain a new lease of life. I guess one is a hedge against the other. 

As for Bitcoin being in a bubble, I suspect it might be, but I suspect the general stock market is too, but that keeps climbing with no peak in sight. Only 0.2% of the worlds population own any Bitcoin. Institutional investors are only now just starting to become interested. The CME group will be introducing a futures market before the years out which is huge news. Both Richard Brandson and Bill gates amongst others have publically endorsed Bitcoin (you can pay for a flight on Virgin Galactic now using Bitcoin!!!) The bitcoin multiplying company I invested with are about to bring the first Bitcoin ATMs to Ireland!!

Bitcoin can certainly go a lot higher before the next correction, however what concerns me is that it was meant as a medium of exchange, as a digital currency, but it is instead being traded as digital gold, as an assset. At the moment it is accepted by overstock.com, Expedia.com, subway restaurants, Microsoft and a few others.  I would like to see more major retail companies like Amazon adopting it. If this happens I believe it may be presently undervalued. 
I genuinely believe that everyone should educate themselves by watching a few simple you tube videos explaining the basics of Bitcoin and the blockchain technology behind it. It is fascinating stuff.  Considering the currency has gone from just a few cents to $8000 in the space of a few years it should at least spark some curiosity amongst my fellow AAMers.


----------



## Rebelrebel

I have a few questions for anyone who knows more about Bitcoin than me. Is it easy to sell your Bitcoin and get your EUR back. Have you done it? Does the EURO go back to your back account? Is it straightforward.

Blockchain technology definitely seems to be something significant. But can anyone explain if every transaction in Bitcoin needs to be validated by each holder does it not mean that the delay in transferring the coins will just become longer and longer - eliminating one of the significant marketing points for bitcoin - its easy and quick ability to transfer. Particularly if it becomes more widely used etc?

The maximum number of bitcoins that will be available will be 21bn. But in actuality won't it be less due to the people who lost all their bitcoin in MTGox etc as well as people who had bitcoins stored on hard drives that they lost? Is that correct?

If only 0.02% of the population own Bitcoin, how will it really become any more mainstream at these prices. Will those who hold Bitcoin not just ultimately hold on to it especially if more retailers accept it as they will be able to live using bitcoin. If fewer places accept it people may have to sell to get some other currency to actually use. But if it were to continue to increase at this rate how would any "ordinary" person be able to get into it - what would the incentive be to get into it. If that is the case won't it really just remain a niche area for a few - some speculators who are hoping for an increase and those in the criminal world to pay for products and services in an anonymous way.

Interested in any replies and may have a few other questions - but these were a few that occurred to me. Happy to be enlightened.


----------



## landlord

To answer some of your questions...
Bitcoin is extremely easy to buy and sell (with 0% comission on the exchange I use)
A free online bank transfer to your chosen exchange can be done within 2-3 working days. The exchange has a wallet where you can store your euros, pounds, dollars, and bitcoin. Most exchanges have a more secure offline digital vault which provides extra protection against hacks. There is usually a 48 hour waiting time, once bitcoin is requested to be transferred from the vault to the wallet. During this time you will receive emails confirming that it was definitely you who requested the transfer and giving you the option of cancelling it if someone else requested the transfer. It is not a good idea to hold you crypto on exchanges anyway. I am buying a Trezor hard wallet which is extremely secure. Selling Bitcoin to Euro is also simple and once again 0% comission on the exchange I use. 

The blockchain technology behind the transfer of bitcoin from one person to another or one person to an institution is completely secure and has never been hacked. It is poor security on exchanges that is the problem. However lessons have been learned after Mt Gox. 

The max amount of Bitcoin out there after the last one is mined in the year 2140 as you say will be 21 million. Some people have lost their private keys and this will certainly reduce the number available to trade. Those lost in Mt Gox are possibly still circulating or stored by the hacking group responsible. 

I don't really understand your last question.  But don't forget although the price of a single Bitcoin is approx €7000 now you can buy tiny tiny fractions of bitcoin.


----------



## Rebelrebel

landlord said:


> To answer some of your questions...
> Bitcoin is extremely easy to buy and sell (with 0% comission on the exchange I use)
> A free online bank transfer to your chosen exchange can be done within 2-3 working days. The exchange has a wallet where you can store your euros, pounds, dollars, and bitcoin. Most exchanges have a more secure offline digital vault which provides extra protection against hacks. There is usually a 48 hour waiting time, once bitcoin is requested to be transferred from the vault to the wallet. During this time you will receive emails confirming that it was definitely you who requested the transfer and giving you the option of cancelling it if someone else requested the transfer. It is not a good idea to hold you crypto on exchanges anyway. I am buying a Trezor hard wallet which is extremely secure. Selling Bitcoin to Euro is also simple and once again 0% comission on the exchange I use.
> 
> The blockchain technology behind the transfer of bitcoin from one person to another or one person to an institution is completely secure and has never been hacked. It is poor security on exchanges that is the problem. However lessons have been learned after Mt Gox.
> 
> The max amount of Bitcoin out there after the last one is mined in the year 2140 as you say will be 21 million. Some people have lost their private keys and this will certainly reduce the number available to trade. Those lost in Mt Gox are possibly still circulating or stored by the hacking group responsible.
> 
> I don't really understand your last question.  But don't forget although the price of a single Bitcoin is approx €7000 now you can buy tiny tiny fractions of bitcoin.



Thanks for the info. And just to confirm, it's easy to get your the EUR in the wallet from your exchange back to your bank account after your sell your bitcoin for EUR right? The only reason I ask is that you always hear of people buying Bitcoin but I rarely hear of anyone selling it

I suppose my last point was, outside of speculation or criminality, what would be the attraction of Bitcoin to the ordinary individual over the current monetary system. I guess you could use it to minimise exchange rate risk but for most people that's not a high priority. I understand it's divisible of course but I just can't see what the incentive would for the majority of the world to get into it. In which case won't it be just the tiny few that will continue to use it for speculation or criminality. And I would imagine that the amount of bitcoin held by the criminal world represents a large portion of the total, does this mean that we will have a huge amount of criminal Bitcoin billionaires down the line. Or will any criminal trying to exchange their Bitcoin to other currency come under authorities scrutiny and hence try to continue living in a bitcoin world. It's anyone's guess I suppose.


----------



## joe sod

Rebelrebel said:


> And I would imagine that the amount of bitcoin held by the criminal world represents a large portion of the total, does this mean that we will have a huge amount of criminal Bitcoin billionaires down the line. Or will any criminal trying to exchange their Bitcoin to other currency come under authorities scrutiny and hence try to continue living in a bitcoin world. It's anyone's guess I suppose.


 
another reason to stay well clear, if so much of it is held by criminals then it will never become a de facto currency. It also might explain why you never hear of anyone selling it, you cant buy property directly with it, you cant buy shares directly with it to my knowledge, you cant buy gold directly, it all most be converted into dollars or euros thereby re starting the paper trail that they are trying to escape from. Also criminals not the best investors afterall the nazis never got their hands on the gold they squirelled away in swiss bank accounts.


----------



## ant dee

Noone knows who owns how much bitcoin, so saying that criminals hold a lot of it is unfounded. Criminals mainly use USD.
You can buy gold with bitcoin on suissegold and many other brokers.
You can buy property if someone sells it to you, but you still need to pass AML.



landlord said:


> The bitcoin multiplying company I invested with are about to bring the first Bitcoin ATMs to Ireland!!



I'm worried about this bitcoin multiplying, sounds like a classic crypto ponzi scam. I can see online there are a few bitcoin atms in Dublin already.


----------



## Fella

Rebelrebel said:


> I know! At $5 a bitcoin I was going to buy a grands worth of them but just never got around to it and I honestly just never believe in them. So every time they have gone up since I've just thought that the increase has been crazy. I'd be a millionaire if I had and held them. But as I say I never believed so more than likely would have started selling out at $50 and considered my self just blindly lucky!




Back in the day when I was a heavy advantage gambler some new bookies appeared that offered to take Bitcoin , in the whatsapp group I was in at the time there was about 8 of us , most of us hadn't heard of Bitcoin (I know I hadn't) but it was cheap maybe like 10c per Bitcoin or 20c I can't remember exactly. We all bought some for the purpose of using it on these obscure gambling sites , think I invested 1000. It never really took off (from a gambling point of view) but we hung on to our Bitcoin and generally forgot about it (pity we didn't develop full amnesia!) but fast forward some time later and we got back talking about Bitcoin as someone mentioned it had gone up in price dramatically. I think I sold at like €1 ( I don't remember really tbh ) but proabably made 5 x my money. 

Out of the 8 of us , one of the guys was adamant it was going to be huge but even he sold at under 10€ , when I read the "if you had of bought xxx you'd be a millionaire stories " I don't really think they are realistic unless you went into a coma i'd imagine 100% of people will sell well before they let an investment grow that big.


----------



## Fella

landlord said:


> I see the general stock market in need of a major correction....although I saw this 2 years ago and was wrong!!!



I remember you saying it and lots of stocks that I bought around that time are up over 25% . I still think long term you should just buy the whole stock market instead of gold /silver and now Bitcoin. I don't get the fear people have over the stockmarket and predicting the next crash , it might crash it might rise for another 5 years, I think people suck at predicting these things , if it crashes I'll buy cheap but if I waited for a crash two years ago I would of lost out on lots of money.


----------



## MrEarl

landlord said:


> Incidentally I can now buy Bitcoin, Etherium and litecoin with 0% comission if anyone is interested



Do tell please 

I wonder if Mr. Burgess would consider setting up a sub-forum for Crypto currencies ?


----------



## Rebelrebel

Fella said:


> Back in the day when I was a heavy advantage gambler some new bookies appeared that offered to take Bitcoin , in the whatsapp group I was in at the time there was about 8 of us , most of us hadn't heard of Bitcoin (I know I hadn't) but it was cheap maybe like 10c per Bitcoin or 20c I can't remember exactly. We all bought some for the purpose of using it on these obscure gambling sites , think I invested 1000. It never really took off (from a gambling point of view) but we hung on to our Bitcoin and generally forgot about it (pity we didn't develop full amnesia!) but fast forward some time later and we got back talking about Bitcoin as someone mentioned it had gone up in price dramatically. I think I sold at like €1 ( I don't remember really tbh ) but proabably made 5 x my money.
> 
> Out of the 8 of us , one of the guys was adamant it was going to be huge but even he sold at under 10€ , when I read the "if you had of bought xxx you'd be a millionaire stories " I don't really think they are realistic unless you went into a coma i'd imagine 100% of people will sell well before they let an investment grow that big.



Yes totally agree with this. I would have more than likely sold out way too early due to lack of belief in them and wanting to get some profit. If people think they are just going to keep going up and up then they should get in now at 7,000. But I can't see myself having any interest at any price.


----------



## Rebelrebel

ant dee said:


> Noone knows who owns how much bitcoin, so saying that criminals hold a lot of it is unfounded. Criminals mainly use USD.
> You can buy gold with bitcoin on suissegold and many other brokers.
> You can buy property if someone sells it to you, but you still need to pass AML.



I suppose my thinking here is that where bitcoin was heavily used was in relation to the whole silk road site. It was as a consequence of that site that it started to gain such popularity and that was mainly to do with criminality. So whether you were a purchaser or seller on that site these were the people who were early adopters and are engaged in some level of criminality. So logically, with them being such early adopters they must hold a very large store of Bitcoin unless they have sold out over the years which seems unlikely.


----------



## Pugmister

landlord said:


> Incidentally I can now buy Bitcoin, Etherium and litecoin with 0% comission if anyone is interested



Very interested in hearing about this.

I believe quite a number of car dealerships in the UK are now accepting Bitcoin as payment. In recent weeks i have seen a few dublin dealerships also advertising that they also accept it as payment.

From my understanding Bitcoin is now becoming more of a store of value and Bitcoin Cash is the new prevailing method of payment.


----------



## landlord

Rebelrebel said:


> Thanks for the info. And just to confirm, it's easy to get your the EUR in the wallet from your exchange back to your bank account after your sell your bitcoin for EUR right? The only reason I ask is that you always hear of people buying Bitcoin but I rarely hear of anyone selling it



Yes v easy to transfer from exchange back to your bank. I have done it several times. Although there is a 15 cent charge.


----------



## Rebelrebel

Pugmister said:


> Very interested in hearing about this.
> 
> I believe quite a number of car dealerships in the UK are now accepting Bitcoin as payment. In recent weeks i have seen a few dublin dealerships also advertising that they also accept it as payment.
> 
> From my understanding Bitcoin is now becoming more of a store of value and Bitcoin Cash is the new prevailing method of payment.


Do you know the Dublin dealerships that are accepting bitcoin? Curious to see which ones they are.

Also, perhaps a stupid question, but what is the difference between bitcoin and bitcoin cash?


----------



## landlord

landlord said:


> Incidentally I can now buy Bitcoin, Etherium and litecoin with 0% comission if anyone is interested



Coinbase is the largest US exchange and probably one of the most trusted.

Hot tip for avoiding the 1.49% coinbase charge and still effectively using Coinbase.....

First register with coinbase (free to register) and get the smartphone app.  Photo I'd required for security.



Next Open Coinbase on your desktop PC and login. DO NOT USE THE APP.

Open another tab in the browser and select [broken link removed]

GDAX is owned by bitcoin it's like their sister company. You will initially have to add one extra photo ID.

Because this is run through Coinbase you will not have to sign up or even have to login. When you click on sign in you will be AUTOMATICALLY logged in. If you click on the deposit button on the left you can transfer your Coinbase euros or bitcoin into GDAX. It is a tiny bit more complicated using this then Coinbase itself but it avoids the extortionate fees. 0% fees for a limit order and 0.25% for a market order. Just follow the simple explanation in the YouTube tutorial below and you can avail of the 0% fee all the time.

https://youtu.be/lcCIjIAqM-4

I have used it now many times and it's easy to use, but feel free to post any questions.


----------



## landlord

Rebelrebel said:


> Also, perhaps a stupid question, but what is the difference between bitcoin and bitcoin cash?



A very good question!!!

CNBC explain it much better than I can in this short 2 min video. 

https://youtu.be/-URJ9XqgxBc


----------



## Pugmister

Rebelrebel said:


> Do you know the Dublin dealerships that are accepting bitcoin? Curious to see which ones they are.



Sarsfield Motors had something on their social media about now accepting Bitcoin along with another used prestige dealer based towards Meath. I cant recall their name at the minute


----------



## joe sod

There is alot of talk recently due to the massive increase in price of bitcoin that it is now a "store of value". If you really believe that then why not de risk and invest in gold. At the very least only use play money to "invest" in it. Im amazed that people dont want to engage in the core argument of whether this is really an investment and why they refuse to measure it with the same metrics as everything else. There is an almost religious following to it.


----------



## fpalb

joe sod said:


> There is alot of talk recently due to the massive increase in price of bitcoin that it is now a "store of value". If you really believe that then why not de risk and invest in gold.



Because I don't want gold, it's a less practical form of money for me, I can't easily divide it, I don't have a safe to store it securely in, it's more difficult and more expensive to liquidate. I can decide to sell any amount of my bitcoin at any time and have a SEPA transfer going to my bank a/c with the proceeds that same day without even leaving the house.

My thesis for the past few years has been that bitcoin would gradually eat into gold's market as the worlds leading decentralised money - because in many ways it's better at being money.

Having said all of that with the large rises this year, I'm now overweight in bitcoin, and have been selling some off, but I won't be putting the proceeds in gold. I'll also be ready to buy some bitcoin back if/when there's a crash or bear market.


----------



## RETIRED2017

Firefly said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Just wondering what your take is on bitcoin...fad or future?
> 
> Interesting (enough) article here.
> 
> http://uk.businessinsider.com/how-bitcoin-may-have-more-impact-than-the-internet-2015-2?r=US
> ,
> The jury is out for me. I'll be the first to admit that I am not an early adopter of a lot of things anyway though...even though I work in IT I can be quite the luddite!
> 
> Firefly.


You could have won the lotto if you bought bitcoin back  in Feb 2015


----------



## tecate

RETIRED2017 said:


> You would have won the lotto if you bought back  in Feb 2015


Meh - 2013 was better :-D


----------



## RETIRED2017

tecate said:


> Meh - 2013 was better :-D


feeling good on the outside I hope,

For what it is worth I bought 20K of bitcoin back in 2014 sold end of December 2017 left around 25K worth  in bitcoin,
Will be interesting to see in four years time what the 24K bitcoin will be worth,
I took the rest out in December to buy  property again it will be interesting to look back in four years time
If I am still around in 2022 will report back,


----------



## tecate

RETIRED2017 said:


> feeling good on the outside I hope,
> 
> For what it is worth I bought 20K of bitcoin back in 2014 sold end of December 2017 left around 25K worth  in bitcoin,
> Will be interesting to see in four years time what it will be worth,


Timed perfectly - well done you.


----------



## RETIRED2017

tecate said:


> Timed perfectly - well done you.


not timing took it out because a property came up one side of where i live ,
Will I still be saying the same in 2022 ? ,
I will not be losing any sleep over the 25K still in bitcoin roll on 2022,

I Remember looking at this post back in 2015 thought the poster was going to put his toe in the water to see what it was like,


----------



## Firefly

RETIRED2017 said:


> You could have won the lotto if you bought bitcoin back  in Feb 2015



Don't worry I've thought of that often, especially last weekend when changing the car!

I just couldn't reconcile the prospect of the value of Bitcoin reaching anything near like its current value back then, just as I cannot do so right now. So I'm OK with that overall, as you can only act on what you think it right at the time. 

Still.....it would be nice!!!


----------



## jman0war

I don't like to put USD or Euro valuations on bitcoin.
I think that will always be a fast moving target as those 2 fiat currencies continue to inflate their supply.
In addition to the wild speculation of price movement that the markets appear to create.

I am attracted to the bitcoin project and my owning bitcoin is claiming a stake in that project.


----------



## RETIRED2017

Firefly said:


> Don't worry I've thought of that often, especially last weekend when changing the car!
> 
> I just couldn't reconcile the prospect of the value of Bitcoin reaching anything near like its current value back then, just as I cannot do so right now. So I'm OK with that overall, as you can only act on what you think it right at the time.
> 
> Still.....it would be nice!!!


I always think of your first post back then I was thinking of cashing out around that time very unsure you post helped me stay in .The money I put into bitcoin was money I was owed for a very long time I was having second thoughts around 2015 your post  stuck in my mind .To be honest I never felt like buying any more since then,


----------



## Firefly

RETIRED2017 said:


> I always think of your first post back then I was thinking of cashing out around that time very unsure you post helped me stay in .The money I put into bitcoin was money I was owed for a very long time I was having second thoughts around 2015 your post  stuck in my mind .To be honest I never felt like buying any more since then,



Well done. Even if I had bought, I would have sold out long before the price reached anything near what's trading for now!


----------



## jman0war

The Times They Are A-Changin' folks



> New York University students in a cryptocurrency course taught by David Yermack, a business and law professor. He had to find a bigger lecture hall for the 225 who signed up.
> 
> BERKELEY, Calif. — While the price of Bitcoin has dropped since Christmas, the virtual currency boom has shown no signs of cooling off in the more august precincts of America’s elite universities.
> Several top schools have added or are rushing to add classes about Bitcoin and the record-keeping technology that it introduced, known as the blockchain.
> Graduate-level classes this semester at Carnegie Mellon, Cornell, Duke, the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and the University of Maryland, among other places, illustrate the fascination with the technology across several academic fields, and the assumption that it will outlast the current speculative price bubble.
> 
> For a class this semester, Mr. Yermack originally booked a lecture hall that could fit 180 students, but he had to move the course to the largest lecture hall at N.Y.U. when enrollment kept going up. He now has 225 people signed up for the class.


https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/08/technology/cryptocurrencies-come-to-campus.html


----------



## TheBigShort

I caught the tail end of an interview on bloomberg yesterday, some analyst guy making the point that nobody under 30 is buying gold. They are buying crypto. 

I dont know what the future for bitcoin is, other than it has potential to grow and grow.


----------



## jman0war

Very interesting article from zerohedge regarding a conversation with The FED and bitcoin.



> *Q.* If virtual currencies aren't backed by anything real, gold or some other physical commodity, does that mean they all eventually will be worthless?
> 
> *A.* You're right that they are not backed by a physical commodity,* but then neither is the dollar and most other modern currencies. It’s long been known that currencies that are intrinsically worthless, mere pieces of paper,* are recognized as valuable because payments with money are so much easier than the alternative, barter. The problem with barter, when everyone trades goods and services directly, is the dreaded “double coincidence of wants.” If I want to have dinner at my favorite restaurant but the cook is not interested in trading a meal for a bitcoin lecture, I have to keeping searching until I find a restaurant that I like where, coincidentally, the cook can’t hear enough about bitcoin.
> Money, even intrinsically worthless paper money, cuts the “double coincidence” problem in half. I just need to find someone willing to pay me some of that paper for my lecture, then use that paper to pay for dinner. As long as I trust that someone will accept the paper, I’m willing to accept it in exchange for my lecture. It’s trust that the “worthless” piece of paper is actually worth something to other people that makes it an acceptable medium of exchange.
> 
> What was most interesting, however, was the Fed's observation under what conditions cryptos could not only match, but supplant fiat as the dominant currency. The answer:* bitcoin would dominate payment methods in a dystopian world, in other words a "decentralized" world, in which there is no more faith - or trust - in central banks.*
> 
> Which, of course, is the whole point behind cryptocurrencies in the first place: to replace the dollar, and other fiat currencies, once the entire fractional-reserve lending platform, and last 100 years of monetary philosophy are exposed to be a fraud.
> "Lunacy" you say? Well, it's a conversation worth having after the next market crash, one which most likely will wipe out what little faith remains in central banks, in fractional reserve lending, in conventional economics and in fiat.



https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018...-world-bitcoin-would-dominate-payment-methods


----------



## Duke of Marmalade

So that's what it's all about.  A belief that we are already in or heading for a completely dystopian world where you can trust no one.  An entry in a blockchain (take your pick of the hundreds available) is the only thing you can believe in.  So this all speculation that this is where we are heading.  Good luck with that.


----------



## jman0war

Yeah, 'dystopian' according to The Fed and Central Banks. Its called Freedom' or 'Liberty' for everybody else.


----------



## DeclanDublin

The  hurly-burly movements of Bitcoin would certainly feed the adrenaline junkies. I'll leave it to them and stick with Fiat. Wow. I never thought I hear myself championing Fiat....


----------



## Duke of Marmalade

jman0war said:


> Yeah, 'dystopian' according to The Fed and Central Banks. Its called Freedom' or 'Liberty' for everybody else.


I don't care what you call it but if the price of bitcoin is based on speculation that

(a)  there will be a complete breakdown of trust in our current monetary infrastructure
(b) there will in its place be confidence in a digital entry on a blockchain signifying nothing
(c) bitcoin will be the chosen one from the hundreds on offer

then good luck with that.


----------



## tecate

Duke of Marmalade said:


> I don't care what you call it


And rightly so - you shouldn't.  The article mentioned 'dystopian'.  You considered it in the context of bitcoin being a trustless system.  If you are dealing with wealth/money/value, all sorts can happen when people are involved.  Therefore, a system that assumes from the outset to take a trustless approach can only be a healthy thing.



Duke of Marmalade said:


> but if the price of bitcoin is based on speculation that
> (a)  there will be a complete breakdown of trust in our current monetary infrastructure
> (b) there will in its place be confidence in a digital entry on a blockchain signifying nothing
> (c) bitcoin will be the chosen one from the hundreds on offer
> then good luck with that.


I'm not sure where you're going with this?  What do you mean re. the 'complete breakdown of trust in our current monetary infrastructure?  You think that bitcoin is going to interfere with other financial systems?...and if so, how?...and how is the 'trust' in them going to be broken?
As regards (b), you have an issue with an entry on the public ledger (blockchain)?  How does this differ from the entry on a banking system showing your account balance?
As regards your (c), why will bitcoin end up being the crypto that wins out?  It really remains to be seen if that will be the case.  Furthermore, whilst there's no doubt that the vast majority of 'coins' currently offered will fall by the wayside, there will still be a number of coins - serving different purposes which will succeed/stick around.


----------



## TheBigShort

Duke of Marmalade said:


> (a) there will be a complete breakdown of trust in our current monetary infrastructure



Not a _complete _breakdown, but a breakdown nonetheless.
In my short lifetime the Irish punt brokedown 3-4 times, the £Stg was broken down by George Soros, and our currency today - the euro! One of the worlds leading currencies wreaking havoc through the economies that have adopted it, breaking economies instead of the currency.
After that, if you care, a brief read of the history of the thousands of fiat currencies that have failed might be no harm.

But hey! - this time is different, right?



Duke of Marmalade said:


> (b) there will in its place be confidence in a digital entry on a blockchain signifying nothing



For someone who purports to carry out 99% of financial transactions digitally, I find this an odd statement.



Duke of Marmalade said:


> (c) bitcoin will be the chosen one from the hundreds on offer



Perhaps, maybe not. Who knows?

Btw, now that we have digital transactions, of which your own participation level is 99%.
Can you explain why there are still hundreds of paper currencies?


----------



## Duke of Marmalade

_tecate _you have misinterpreted some of my points for which I take blame for my poor explanatory style.

You may not be in this camp but I was addressing _jman _and his link which seem to see bitcoin as the answer to the hunger for a trustless currency because  trust in conventional currency infrastructures will have broken down. I am certainly not saying that is going to happen but maybe you should address your queries to _jman _who seems to think that it will happen.

One of the real nonsenses put about is that entries in conventional bank accounts are as meaningless as entries on the blockchain.  I have addressed this before but in short the fact that the institutions appointed by society to make it their main purpose to maintain the meaningfulness of fiat hugely differentiates it from crypto, where about the only thing that is guaranteed is that there will be a limited supply provided you ignore the 100s of copycats.

I didn't say bitcoin will win out.  But this is the current leg of the treble (in betting parlance) to support a price of $8,000.


----------



## tecate

Duke of Marmalade said:


> You may not be in this camp but I was addressing _jman _and his link which seem to see bitcoin as the answer to the hunger for a trustless currency because  trust in conventional currency infrastructures will have broken down. I am certainly not saying that is going to happen but maybe you should address your queries to _jman _who seems to think that it will happen.


There is already an issue of trust with regard to conventional banking practice.  In fact, it's the whole raison d'etre for bitcoin in the first instance. Satoshi wrote the white paper for bitcoin in the aftermath of the 2008 financial crisis.  The practices of the banking community at that time was far from wholesome. 
Following on from that Financial Crisis (although some would disagree...) the practices of central banks (quantitative easing) with the speeding up of the debasement of the value in the pieces of paper in your wallet (be that euro or dollar or whatever) didn't help.  Where there is any upside to Q.E., it benefits the small guy a lot less.
A system that assumes that it should be trustless is an advancement.



Duke of Marmalade said:


> One of the real nonsenses put about is that entries in conventional bank accounts are as meaningless as entries on the blockchain.  I have addressed this before but in short the fact that the institutions appointed by society to make it their main purpose to maintain the meaningfulness of fiat hugely differentiates it from crypto, where about the only thing that is guaranteed is that there will be a limited supply provided you ignore the 100s of copycats.


We are circling back to the intrinsic value argument i.e some suggest FIAT has whereas crypto has not and others that neither do other than market sentiment - peoples belief or otherwise in either of them.  The article that was linked to suggested an acknowledgement that neither is backed by anything since the gold standard went away many decades ago.



Duke of Marmalade said:


> I have addressed this before but in short the fact that the institutions appointed by society to make it their main purpose to maintain the meaningfulness of fiat hugely differentiates it from crypto, where about the only thing that is guaranteed is that there will be a limited supply provided you ignore the 100s of copycats.


I wouldn't get hung up on the copycats.  At the end of the day, most people simply are not going to place any belief into most of them unless they identify some form of substance in them.  Over time, most of them will go away.



Duke of Marmalade said:


> I didn't say bitcoin will win out.  But this is the current leg of the treble (in betting parlance) to support a price of $8,000.


I'm not sure if anyone is expecting any crypto to 'win out' over FIAT.  I think it's more likely that both will co-exist.


----------



## Brendan Burgess

I think in your dystopian future, you should place your trust in guys like these 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2uJ6cCwqh0

They launched a $50m crypto over the weekend. 

But hey they are young and "data nerds" so the future is with them and not with fuddy duddys like the Duke and me.

Brendan


----------



## Duke of Marmalade

Watched that video _Boss_. I think that verges on fraud.  They repeatedly talked about how their ICO represented “value”.  What’s to stop me offering value to the World.  Oh I wouldn’t go to the bother of making a Blockchain, but I’m every bit as entitled to call my Marmalade Coins value as any nerd.

Actually they are quite clever fraudsters.  They only accepted subscriptions in Ether.  Therefore in taking a fraud case you would need to prove that the ICO has no value but in doing so you would also prove Ether has no value


----------



## Duke of Marmalade

TheBigShort said:


> Not a _complete _breakdown, but a breakdown nonetheless.
> In my short lifetime the Irish punt brokedown 3-4 times, the £Stg was broken down by George Soros, and our currency today - the euro!


The Irish punt broke from sterling in 1979. It trades today at about £1.13.  Over the last 40 years the punt/£ has traded in a range between .75 and 1.15.  You describe that as several breakdowns.  By that measure bitcoin has a nervous breakdown every day.


TheBigShort said:


> and our currency today - the euro! One of the worlds leading currencies wreaking havoc through the economies that have adopted it, breaking economies instead of the currency.


The Greek government are even more pinko than your good self and they are perfectly free to exit the euro and adopt the bitcoin.  The fact is that when they were under threat of being expelled from the euro for gross misbehaviour they begged to be kept inside and promised to do anything the ECB asked.


TheBigShort said:


> For someone who purports to carry out 99% of financial transactions digitally, I find this an odd statement.


Are you being particularly obdurate!  I put no value on a digital entry _per se_ no more than I would a piece of paper.  But I have complete confidence in a digital entry in a system maintained by the ECB for the purpose of acting as a stable medium of exchange.  What's more important I have never found any difficulty whatsoever in getting complete strangers to accept transfers of my digital entries in exchange for goods and services.  I just don't see me going out shopping with just my bitcoin wallet but hey I'm old fashioned I know.


----------



## TheBigShort

Duke of Marmalade said:


> The Irish punt broke from sterling in 1979. It trades today at about £1.13. Over the last 40 years the punt/£ has traded in a range between .75 and 1.15. You describe that as several breakdowns. By that measure bitcoin has a nervous breakdown every day.



I was refering to its devaluations, as directed by the central bank, authorised by the government.
But you are correct, it pales into insignificance to the roller coaster ride that is bitcoin. If bitcoin is to survive long-term, it will only do so if price stability is a feature.



Duke of Marmalade said:


> The Greek government are even more pinko than your good self and they are perfectly free to exit the euro and adopt the bitcoin. The fact is that when they were under threat of being expelled from the euro for gross misbehaviour they begged to be kept inside and promised to do anything the ECB asked.



Actually there is no legal basis for any eurozone country to leave or be expelled from the euro. 
There was no begging to be done. Greece cannot be expelled by anyone anymore than they can expel anyone else.
Obviously economic forces could dictate otherwise, and considering its construct, the euro is ripe to hobble from one crisis to another.



Duke of Marmalade said:


> have complete confidence in a digital entry in a system maintained by the ECB for the purpose of acting as a stable medium of exchange. What's more important I have never found any difficulty whatsoever in getting complete strangers to accept transfers of my digital entries in exchange for goods and services. I just don't see me going out shopping with just my bitcoin wallet but hey I'm old fashioned I know.



It seems to me that anyone who has bought bitcoin is open to the real possibility that it could return to zero. That they are acutely aware of its volatility. But they are also aware of its potential. They are also acutely aware that the monetary system as it exists is unstable at best with the potential to implode at worst. 

I have every confidence that the euro wil be here for the forseeable future. But im also aware of the vast manipulation that is occuring in order to keep it together. My guess is that such manipulation has the potential to undermine its value long-term. 

It seems to me that because your groceries are not priced in bitcoin today, that therefore it doesnt, cant, wont work or have value.

It may return to zero, it may not work long-term. But im open to the possibility that it may work long-term, as im open to possibility that confidence in the euro may diminish further or collapse altogether.


----------



## tecate

Brendan Burgess said:


> I think in your dystopian future, you should place your trust in guys like these
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2uJ6cCwqh0
> 
> They launched a $50m crypto over the weekend.
> 
> But hey they are young and "data nerds" so the future is with them and not with fuddy duddys like the Duke and me.
> 
> Brendan


I don't think you have an understanding in what they're offering.  They're building out cryptocurrency infrastructure by way of a decentralised exchange.  Nearly all crypto exchanges are centralised right now.  With that, comes the risk of theft - just like we saw with the hack of the Japanese exchange a few weeks ago.  Decentralised exchanges avoid this risk.  That is how they add value with their project and ICO.  Coinbase revenues exceeded $1 billion in 2017.  If there is a move towards decentralised exchanges, then clearly there is a market to exploit.



Duke of Marmalade said:


> Watched that video _Boss_. I think that verges on fraud.  They repeatedly talked about how their ICO represented “value”.  What’s to stop me offering value to the World.  Oh I wouldn’t go to the bother of making a Blockchain, but I’m every bit as entitled to call my Marmalade Coins value as any nerd.


If it's 'fraud', then report it - see where that ends up.  Again, you are circling back to the intrinsic value aspect - where you believe any crypto has none but FIAT does.  I understand your point - but I don't necessarily agree.  As regards Marmalade Coins, have at it.  There is no doubt that there is a shed load of ICO's that are based on vapourware but I don't think Brendan picked the best example in this instance to demonstrate that.



Duke of Marmalade said:


> Actually they are quite clever fraudsters.  They only accepted subscriptions in Ether.  Therefore in taking a fraud case you would need to prove that the ICO has no value but in doing so you would also prove Ether has no value


_In your opinion._  ;-)
They work through Ether as their project runs on the Ethereum platform.  I'm not a developer but my understanding is that Ethereum provides a lot more possibilites than Bitcoin to build out applications.


----------



## TheBigShort

Brendan Burgess said:


> I think in your dystopian future, you should place your trust in guys like these
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2uJ6cCwqh0
> 
> They launched a $50m crypto over the weekend.
> 
> But hey they are young and "data nerds" so the future is with them and not with fuddy duddys like the Duke and me.
> 
> Brendan




Respecting your view that bitcoin will return to zero, I do think however there is underlying ignorance in your views to all these new concepts. 
I cant say for certain how, or when, or in what exact form all these new developments in blockchain, crypto etc will ultimately pan out. And I cant say I even understand half of the stuff that is behind blockchain etc.
But what is clear to me, is that there are fundamental changes occuring in the way we will all be transacting with each other in the future. 
It is clear to me that between all tech heads and data nerds, if all of this was bogus, some of them would have called it out by now. 
While there are no doubt chancers and fraudsters abound on the crypto/blockchain space, fundamentally the technology is advancing and powering ahead - and not just with data nerds in attic lofts either. 
Personally I think it is a fascinating time watching all this unfold and to trying to understand the concepts that are driving it.


----------



## jman0war

Brendan Burgess said:


> I think in your dystopian future, you should place your trust in guys like these
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2uJ6cCwqh0
> 
> They launched a $50m crypto over the weekend.
> 
> But hey they are young and "data nerds" so the future is with them and not with fuddy duddys like the Duke and me.
> 
> Brendan


Don't Trust, Brendan; Verify.

https://bitcoin.org/en/bitcoin-core/features/validation

*Do You Validate Your Transactions?*
Some people confuse supporting the network with helping to protect Bitcoin’s decentralization.

To improve your security and help protect decentralization, *you must use a wallet that fully validates received transactions*


----------



## lukas888

For all Bitcoin junkies Panorama special BBC1 Monday 8.30 pm.


----------



## TheBigShort

This is the trailer on the BBC website


"_Bitcoin is the world's leading virtual currency, but unlike real money, it is not backed by a government or properly regulated. Bitcoin is exchanged and held digitally by users - which is attractive to criminals selling drugs, pornography and arms. But now Bitcoin is moving into the mainstream and being openly marketed as an investment opportunity.

Panorama investigates what Bitcoin is and what it means, going inside a Bitcoin mine in Iceland - where currency is made - and spending time with the Bitcoin millionaires of Silicon Valley. The programme also hears from others who have been scammed out of their life savings and investors who think the cryptocurrency is an enormous scam and that the writing is on the wall.

In Britain, and around the world, authorities are sounding the alarm that Bitcoin is too risky - is it too late, or too crazy, to try to become a Bitcoin millionaire?"_

So before the programme is even aired, a couple of obs.


“_unlike real money_” – a loaded phrase, already biased in outlook.

“_Bitcoin is exchanged and held digitally by users - which is attractive to criminals selling drugs, pornography and arms” - _Unlike cash or 'real' money?
“_The programme also hears from others who have been scammed out of their life savings_”. This will be interesting to see was it bitcoin that scammed the investors or was it hackers, bogus websites, exchanges etc.
_“But now Bitcoin is moving into the mainstream and being openly marketed as an investment opportunity.” _– It will be interesting to see who is marketing it.
“_investors who think the cryptocurrency is an enormous scam and that the writing is on the wall.” _This will be interesting. As Ive mentioned before Im open to persuasion on the whole bitcoin, crypto space.


“_In Britain, and around the world, authorities are sounding the alarm that Bitcoin is too risky_”

Somewhat misleading I think. This is what the BoE website has to say about bitcoin and digital currencies;

https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/research/digital-currencies
*Private digital currencies*

Private digital currencies combine new payments systems with new currencies that are not issued by a central bank. The most well-known privately issued digital currency is Bitcoin, but other examples include LiteCoin, Ethereum and Ripple. We have assessed private digital currencies and concluded that while they are interesting, *they do not currently pose a material risk to monetary or financial stability in the UK*. We continue to monitor developments in this area.

In fairness, it is a TV programme and my understanding is that the TV ratings game is a tough business_. Viewers beware!_


----------



## tecate

TheBigShort said:


> “_unlike real money_” – a loaded phrase, already biased in outlook.
> 
> “_Bitcoin is exchanged and held digitally by users - which is attractive to criminals selling drugs, pornography and arms” - _Unlike cash or 'real' money?
> “_The programme also hears from others who have been scammed out of their life savings_”. This will be interesting to see was it bitcoin that scammed the investors or was it hackers, bogus websites, exchanges etc.
> _“But now Bitcoin is moving into the mainstream and being openly marketed as an investment opportunity.” _– It will be interesting to see who is marketing it.
> “_investors who think the cryptocurrency is an enormous scam and that the writing is on the wall.” _This will be interesting. As Ive mentioned before Im open to persuasion on the whole bitcoin, crypto space.“_In Britain, and around the world, authorities are sounding the alarm that Bitcoin is too risky_”Somewhat misleading I think. This is what the BoE website has to say about bitcoin and digital currencies


Your're right about the 'real' money reference.  I've no doubt that they will have real life case studies of those that have been scammed (or mislead) in parting with their life savings.  However, this won't involve people simply buying crytocurrency - it will involve third parties who have gotten involved and are cashing in on peoples lack of knowledge.
As regards it being 'marketed', again you're quite right.  The only ones 'marketing' anything here could only be a third party - in which case they are not going to be suggesting people simply buy bitcoin (or another crypto) directly.  Bitcoin is decentralised - there is no 'marketing dept'.
I think the last point is fair enough ref. bitcoin is too risky.  I think everyone acknowledges that it's a high risk item.  I also think it's fair enough for them to discuss the view that the writing is on the wall for crypto.  Many people here are of that view and the discussion here mirrors discussions elsewhere.  The maintenance of positive market sentiment - together with the need for day to day usability to be brought to the fore are pretty central to the extent to which crypto can exist with some sort of store of value attached to it.  Of course, if it does go down to zero, that kills the speculation but the technology will still continue to be developed.


----------



## TheBigShort

tecate said:


> I think everyone acknowledges that it's a high risk item. I also think it's fair enough for them to discuss the view that the writing is on the wall for crypto. Many people here are of that view and the discussion here mirrors discussions elsewhere.



Absolutely. I think its high volatility is there for everyone to see. The point was however, according to the promo, was that _the authorities_ in Britain and around the world are sounding alarm bells that it is too risky. They aren't.
There is a lot of noise in the media about bitcoin that suggests authorities are sounding alarm bells, but when you look behind the headlines the details of the 'crackdowns' etc tend to be a lot softer that what the headlines imply.
I used the example of the BoE website to show this. Another example was an apparent 'crackdown' in South Korea against bitcoin exchanges. Instead, it transpired, was that exchanges were to implement KYC checks on their accounts - pretty standard stuff I would have thought.

I'm just guessing, but I suspect this programme will be more noise than substance.


----------



## lukas888

Panorama is the world's longest running current affairs programme.From the early days of the great Richard Dimbleby it has always been regarded as the best and not prone to sensationalism.But it's obvious that the Bitcoin fans have dismissed it even before it's aired.


----------



## Gordon Gekko

lukas888 said:


> Panorama is the world's longest running current affairs programme.From the early days of the great Richard Dimbleby it has always been regarded as the best and not prone to sensationalism.But it's obvious that the Bitcoin fans have dismissed it even before it's aired.



The sensitivity of Millennials should never be underestimated. Nor should the sensitivity of Bitcoin zealots. They really believe that this nonsense represents disruption on a grand scale and a means to wrest control from the authorities. It doesn’t; it’s a scam and a bubble, and if regulation doesn’t kill it, common sense will.


----------



## TheBigShort

lukas888 said:


> Panorama is the world's longest running current affairs programme.From the early days of the great Richard Dimbleby it has always been regarded as the best and not prone to sensationalism.But it's obvious that the Bitcoin fans have dismissed it even before it's aired.



I havent dismissed it all. In fact I stated clearly above that I am open to persuasion. 
I do admit however, given the tone of the promo, that I suspect it to be somewhat biased for the reasons outlined above. 

I may be proven incorrect. No doubt, after the programme has aired, we will know better.


----------



## Firefly

TheBigShort said:


> This is the trailer on the BBC website
> 
> So before the programme is even aired, a couple of obs.
> 
> 
> “_unlike real money_” – a loaded phrase, already biased in outlook


Nice one. Sure you can never trust these public sector broadcasters can you?


----------



## TheBigShort

Firefly said:


> Nice one. Sure you can never trust these public sector broadcasters can you?



Absolutely, or any of them for that matter - they are in the business of TV ratings, nothing else. Having said that, had they issued a promo along the lines of
- "_tonight we investigate the bitcoin and crypto phenomenon, from those who have made millions and those who lost out. And we show how the regulators will kill it, or if not them, then common sense_".

That would be intriguing to watch.


----------



## tecate

Eh, it's clear from my post above that I have NOT dismissed it. However, I'll bet that the example they give of whomever lost their life savings in a 'scam' involves some third party entity.  The reference to 'real' money is not a neutral statement either.
With regard to the reference to 'marketing', bitcoin is decentralised.  There is no 'marketing' (unless again it involves some third party scam artists...who have nothing to do with the project).
Lastly, re. the jibe about public service broadcasters, whatever about the BBC, it's something for an Irish citizen to come out with that given what we have for a ''broadcaster' #rtebias (TV thrown out 3 years ago for that very reason).


----------



## Duke of Marmalade

You bitcoin zlts are very touchy.  Read that first sentence again.  “real” is used in contrast to “virtual” a well known apple and orange juxtaposition not impugning either object.

The zlts would presumably suggest that  “bitcoin is digital gold, unlike fiat it does not rely on corrupt central banks” provides more balance.


----------



## TheBigShort

Duke of Marmalade said:


> You bitcoin zlts are very touchy. Read that first sentence again. “real” is used in



You could be right. Given the tone of the rest of the promo (criminality, drugs, scams, alarm bells etc) I took it as biased.


----------



## Gordon Gekko

TheBigShort said:


> You could be right. Given the tone of the rest of the promo (criminality, drugs, scams, alarm bells etc) I took it as biased.



But rightly so!

Conventional currencies are regulated and the global financial system has checks and balances to reduce the risk of criminal or terrorist behaviour.

Bitcoin is murky and unregulated and definitively has feet of clay. It is a great way for criminals and terrorists to circumvent global authorities. 

But the soya latte drinking millennials who love it so much choose to ignore all of that because their anger at the perceived wrongs of conventional markets clouds their judgement.

To be honest, Bitcoin zealots are really starting to annoy me because they are making weak-minded people follow them into this madness. On that basis, and I never thought I’d say this, I hope it goes to zero ASAP and that every believer learns a very costly lesson.


----------



## jman0war

Why are conventional currencies and banking regulations so spectacularly poor at preventing criminals and terrorists then?


----------



## RETIRED2017

Duke of Marmalade said:


> You bitcoin zlts are very touchy.  Read that first sentence again.  “real” is used in contrast to “virtual” a well known apple and orange juxtaposition not impugning either object.
> 
> The zlts would presumably suggest that  “bitcoin is digital gold, unlike fiat it does not rely on corrupt central banks” provides more balance.


Who did you say are getting very touchy,


----------



## jman0war

Conventional Banking vs Bitcoin.

In 2014 if you left 100€ in BOI and forgot about it..
Today in 2018, your balance should be   -360€  (you owe them).
---
Had you put that same money into Bitcoin in 2014, you'd have 1420€ today.
(assuming a 500€ price in 2014)


----------



## Duke of Marmalade

RETIRED2017 said:


> Who did you say are getting very touchy,


They took it as a put down of bitcoin when clearly, having described bitcoin as virtual in no sense of being derogatory, it was the obvious counter description of fiat, no offence intended, but offence was clearly taken


----------



## TheBigShort

Gordon Gekko said:


> But rightly so!
> 
> Conventional currencies are regulated and the global financial system has checks and balances to reduce the risk of criminal or terrorist behaviour.
> 
> Bitcoin is murky and unregulated and definitively has feet of clay. It is a great way for criminals and terrorists to circumvent global authorities.
> 
> But the soya latte drinking millennials who love it so much choose to ignore all of that because their anger at the perceived wrongs of conventional markets clouds their judgement.
> 
> To be honest, Bitcoin zealots are really starting to annoy me because they are making weak-minded people follow them into this madness. On that basis, and I never thought I’d say this, I hope it goes to zero ASAP and that every believer learns a very costly lesson.



The only 'zealots' I see are the ones forever trying to knock bitcoin. The only reason there are so many threads on AAM about bitcoin, that there are specific markets on betting sites, that there are drama-queen headlines, is because of those who dont 'like' bitcoin.
You have even admitted to being annoyed!
To the point that wish misfortune on everyone on everyone who owns bitcoin. Thats sad.
Who are the 'weak-minded'? Who is following who? Who are the leaders of this 'scam'?
As for circumventing authorities and criminality and terrorism et al...the banks have paid out $300bn in _fines _for their criminality in the let alone the cost of that criminality.
The whole crypto space and its involvement in criminality is a drop in the ocean to the more convential method, cash.


----------



## TheBigShort

Duke of Marmalade said:


> They took it as a put down of bitcoin when clearly, having described bitcoin as virtual in no sense of being derogatory, it was the obvious counter description of fiat, no offence intended, but offence was clearly taken



Eh, there was no offence taken. I read an article and interpreted it to mean something else to which you interpreted it. To which I admitted that you could be correct.

Where is the offence?


----------



## Duke of Marmalade

TheBigShort said:


> Where is the offence?


originally but you have changed your mind for which I respect you


----------



## lukas888

I know its old ground but a huge number of bitcoin investors are gamblers and would not know a bitcoin from a flying saucer.The wild fluctuations
are the big attraction giving the same buzz as a  night in the casino or a day in the bookies.The notion of animated conversation on the intricacies
of mining and blockchain in the Hong kong stock market gambling dens are fanciful.


----------



## jman0war

What i don't really get, is what motivates people to hate bitcoin?

Sure i understand that banks and regulators don't like it; afterall bitcoin totally dances around their patch of turf and makes them look like technophobes, renders their entire industry archaic and redundant. They don't like being redundant sticks-in-the-mud so they push back and try to use their power and influence to stop the march of progress.

It's a little bit silly that government insiders and bankers, sitting in positions of privilege get to chastise an Open Source project of volunteers.

Open Source doesn't get afforded the same level of protection in law as do corporations.
So competing industry gets to libel bitcoin as much as they want to.


----------



## TheBigShort

lukas888 said:


> I know its old ground but a huge number of bitcoin investors are gamblers and would not know a bitcoin from a flying saucer.The wild fluctuations
> are the big attraction giving the same buzz as a  night in the casino or a day in the bookies.The notion of animated conversation on the intricacies
> of mining and blockchain in the Hong kong stock market gambling dens are fanciful.



I would agree with this. My own bitcoin experience is one of pure speculation.
Having said that the gambling industry itself, casinos, bookmakers, national lotteries, etc is way bigger than bitcoin, bringing an untold amount of misery on millions of suckers (most punters in a bookies do not understand the form in the racing pages)

So what do governments do? Reduce taxes on winnings.....whayhayyy!


----------



## tecate

The whole 'zealots' thing could easily cut both ways - I don't see myself as a 'zealot' - enthusiastic about the tech (as I always am about any new tech)...so use cases which may work out and others that might not..lets see.

No offence taken here either.  Whilst I accept there are plenty of unresolved issues with regards to cryptocurrencies which should rightly be aired, there has also been bigged - up inaccurate commentary from corners that have an interest in talking it down.

On the 'huge number of BTC 'investors' being gamblers, I agree - and I'd say particularly the ones that came in post November 2017.  Thankfully, the banks have protected those poor misguided people from buying crypto with a credit card.  We can expect an announcement any day now banning the purchase of Paddy Power/Coral, etc. services....(not!).


----------



## TheBigShort

lukas888 said:


> For all Bitcoin junkies Panorama special BBC1 Monday 8.30 pm.



In the end, quite a balanced programme overall. 
Personally I think the mining warehouses are quite phenomenal, considersing there is no one central authority or company behind bitcoin. 
On the otherhand, the 'onecoin' scam and others such as could seriously limit the adoption of cryptocurrency.
In the end, it would appear crypto is here to stay, but at what price?


----------



## TheBigShort

Actually on further reflection, for a programme that advertised itself on bitcoin, but to then use another crypto to illustrate a scam is pretty shallow.


----------



## tecate

TheBigShort said:


> For a programme that advertised itself on bitcoin, but to then use another crypto to illustrate a scam is pretty shallow.


The part about someone being conned out of their own money was always going to be about someone getting the hard sell for something that set out to be a scam from day 1.  Don't get me wrong - you can lose all your money by speculating on bitcoin in double quick time.  However, YOU make that decision.  There shouldn't be someone running marketing seminars whipping people up into a frenzy to blind them into parting with their money.  Onecoin was on a private blockchain. Scams like these are just using the interest in crypto to prey on people who are not up to speed and don't fully understand what it is they're putting money into.  It's crypto today.  In Belfort's time, it was penny stocks, next year it will be something else - but these guys latch on to whatever's hot and use that as a facade to part people from their money.

(otherwise, I thought it was balanced enough.  I just wish they'd have talked to one of those other guys in the incubator house in San Francisco - so that they could briefly talk through some of the technological aspects of crypto - rather than that sap with the hookah).


----------



## TheBigShort

tecate said:


> I just wish they'd have talked to one of those other guys in the incubator house in San Francisco - so that they could briefly talk through some of the technological aspects of crypto - rather than that sap with the hookah).



Good point. We had the 'Onecoin' scam, which had nothing to do with bitcoin and the stoner who made his millions. 
Another guy who was concerned that all those pc's in Iceland and elsewhere could be put to better use! And the regulatory guy who, laughably, said KYC reduces the amount of legitimate cash going to illegitimate means. 

Two other parts were interesting was the guy who admitted that money laundering involving involving bitcoin was only a small percentage (doesnt stop the headlines) of the overall money laundering schemes, and the £17m house in London available to buy in bitcoin. Its interesting to know that transactions of that level are, apparently, occuring.


----------



## pauric

Is anyone using Revolut to trade bitcoin? Any advice for a total novice looking to speculate a few euro using Revolut to trade and store bitcoin?


----------



## ant dee

pauric said:


> Is anyone using Revolut to trade bitcoin? Any advice for a total novice looking to speculate a few euro using Revolut to trade and store bitcoin?


If its a few hundreds worth and you plan to hold them, buy a hardware wallet and store them there.
If you want to actively trade use a bigger exchange like Kraken or Coinbase(GDAX).


----------



## tecate

pauric said:


> Is anyone using Revolut to trade bitcoin? Any advice for a total novice looking to speculate a few euro using Revolut to trade and store bitcoin?


By all means, buy some BTC.  However, don't use Revolut.  I have been a Revolut user since 2016 - delighted to find them at the time as their approach is innovative and they've saved me plenty whilst abroad for long periods (when my own bank would have charged me excessive fx withdrawal fees and poor fx rates).
It was encouraging to find them entering the crypto sphere more recently.  However, their offering is very much limited.  You can purchase bitcoin through them but you don't get to hold the actual coin yourself.  The rate of purchase is not competitive.  Do what ant dee suggested and get a verified account with Kraken, Coinbase or Bitstamp.  Buy through them and then set up your own independent wallet.  Be aware that you must take full responsibility for that wallet and never lose the seed key.


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## MrEarl

Agree with both *tecate* and *ant dee* above, don't use Revolut for this purpose.

Personally, I would be slow to use Kraken (given their limited customer support and recent very poor handling of an IT upgrade that went badly wrong).  I would suggest that you consider a couple of the other larger exchanges.  If you search online, you'll quickly discover the bigger and more reliable exchanges.  Personally, I tend to use Coinbase and Binance, although have also opened accounts at a couple of the others (incl. Bitstamp).


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## jman0war

I see that Coinbase are getting into the merchant side of things.
C_oinbase Commerce is the easiest and safest way for your business to start accepting digital currency payments_
https://commerce.coinbase.com/

I"m not a big fan of Coinbase but they are huge, so this should help adoption.


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## MrEarl

jman0war said:


> I see that Coinbase are getting into the merchant side of things.
> C_oinbase Commerce is the easiest and safest way for your business to start accepting digital currency payments_
> https://commerce.coinbase.com/
> 
> I"m not a big fan of Coinbase but they are huge, so this should help adoption.



Agree entirely on the point about adoption.

I know Coinbase are not the cheapest for exchange and at the moment they only focus on the four main crypto currencies, but I think their platform is robust and their service reliable.   What is it you don't like about them ?


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## jman0war

MrEarl said:


> Agree entirely on the point about adoption.
> 
> I know Coinbase are not the cheapest for exchange and at the moment they only focus on the four main crypto currencies, but I think their platform is robust and their service reliable.   What is it you don't like about them ?


They tried to force a rule change called SegWit2x despite the vast majority of the bitcoin community and network participants opposed.
They don't batch their transactions and dump every single one onto the blockchain, which is basically spamming.
They have been dragging their feet to implement SegWit.
They colluded with Roger Ver to pump Bcash.
They have a huge pool of UTXO's which will cost them more to move than they are worth. SegWit addresses won't help, but a _block size increase_ would (how convenient then to try and force 2X rule change). 
It's technical incompetence on their part.   https://news.bitcoin.com/coinbase-accused-technical-incompetence-hoarding-millions-utxos/


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## Negotiator

jman0war said:


> They tried to force a rule change called SegWit2x despite the vast majority of the bitcoin community and network participants opposed.
> They don't batch their transactions and dump every single one onto the blockchain, which is basically spamming.
> They have been dragging their feet to implement SegWit.
> They colluded with Roger Ver to pump Bcash.
> They have a huge pool of UTXO's which will cost them more to move than they are worth. SegWit addresses won't help, but a _block size increase_ would (how convenient then to try and force 2X rule change).
> It's technical incompetence on their part.   https://news.bitcoin.com/coinbase-accused-technical-incompetence-hoarding-millions-utxos/



According to that article jman0war it states there is a wallet with 265BTC and over 1.5m UTXOs. To put that right does Coinbase need to effectively add each individual UTXO as a transaction on the blockchain?   ie- costing several million dollars      I don't understand enough about the technical process of how UTXOs get dealt with and would really like to know this.

Thanks in advance.


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