# OT posts re teacher T&C's removed from AIB Redundancy Thread



## Sunny (16 Jun 2011)

Ok, slightly off topic but here is a question about teaching hours that I don't understand. Not just with Irish teachers but with teachers across Europe. Why don't they work standardised days and get standard holidays like everyone else? Why don't they work 9-5 Monday to Friday even if teaching finishes at 3. That way they do administrative work afterwards. Same with holidays. Why do they they the same holidays as students? Should they not be made to go into the school during holidays to do all the stuff that teachers say has to be done outside class? During the summer, can they not offer a few hours teaching a day to children with learning difficulties or those who need extra help or might be interesting in learning more and then do administrative work as well.

Basically, why don't teachers in every Country work a standard week with standard annual leave entitlements? What am I missing?


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## Purple (16 Jun 2011)

Two things stand out in the report ONQ.
Firstly this paragraph;
_"The data in this report must be used with caution. First and foremost, these are based on respondents’ own estimations, based on available information, not necessarily on internationally comparable primary statistical data from provable sources. Secondly, the average and approximate values given in this report does not allow evaluating or analyzing in any detail the situation in regard to salaries and working conditions in any particular country."_

Secondly I note that Ireland doesn't feature in the wage graphs.


I presume that you know the difference between hours worked per week and total hours worked per year?
Assuming that you do then citing that primary school teachers work a long week relative to teachers in other countries without noting that they work fewer weeks than most is, to say the least, not giving the full story.

I also presume you know that we are slipping down the world rankings for literacy and numeracy and that the “world class education system” myth has been exposed for what it is by both empirical data and the opinions of high-tech business leaders.

From this source;
_"On reading levels, Ireland has slipped from fifth place in 2000 to 17th place, the sharpest decline among 39 countries surveyed.

The organisation’s Programme for International Student Assessment study says almost one-quarter of Irish 15-year-olds are below the level of literacy needed to participate effectively in society."_


BTW, I am not part of any grand conspiracy to undermine the state and I have no particular axe to grind with teachers. My opinions are formed mainly from listening to the teachers lobby, my sister in law ( a primary school vice principal), my father in law (a retired secondary school Vice principal) and my sister who is studying to be a primary school teacher. 
I also see the abysmal standard of teaching and appalling lack of care for the emotional and educational welfare at the school my two sons attended up to this year and the defensiveness of many teachers and all of their representative groups when anyone suggests that perhaps not every teacher in Ireland is perfect. I find is bizarre that more teachers are not like my sister in law who is disgusted by how her union behaves, the pay increases that have taken resources away from children, the increase in non-core curriculum requirements at the same time as the school year being reduced and the utter lack of any real-life sanction for teachers who simply can’t or won’t do their job properly.


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## Purple (16 Jun 2011)

Sunny said:


> Ok, slightly off topic but here is a question about teaching hours that I don't understand. Not just with Irish teachers but with teachers across Europe. Why don't they work standardised days and get standard holidays like everyone else? Why don't they work 9-5 Monday to Friday even if teaching finishes at 3. That way they do administrative work afterwards. Same with holidays. Why do they they the same holidays as students? Should they not be made to go into the school during holidays to do all the stuff that teachers say has to be done outside class? During the summer, can they not offer a few hours teaching a day to children with learning difficulties or those who need extra help or might be interesting in learning more and then do administrative work as well.
> 
> Basically, why don't teachers in every Country work a standard week with standard annual leave entitlements? What am I missing?


I don’t see why they should have to work when the children are off. What would it achieve?

I don’t think the teaching day should be any longer either as children can only learn so much and standing in front of a class is more difficult and mentally draining than sitting in an office. 
I do think the school year should be longer so that children have more time to cover the curriculum but I don’t think child-minding problems for parents over the summer are relevant here. 

As for ONQ's lack of understanding of the link between pay and class sizes here’s a simple example;

You have 50’000 children and you want 25 in each class.
Therefore you need 2000 teachers.
If you have €80’000’000 to pay those teachers with then their average pay will be €40’000.
If the teachers want €50’000 average pay then you can only employ 1’600 of them so the average class size will increase to 31.25.

It’s hardly rocket science.


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## Sunny (16 Jun 2011)

Purple said:


> I don’t see why they should have to work when the children are off. What would it achieve?
> 
> I don’t think the teaching day should be any longer either as children can only learn so much and standing in front of a class is more difficult and mentally draining than sitting in an office.
> I do think the school year should be longer so that children have more time to cover the curriculum but I don’t think child-minding problems for parents over the summer are relevant here.
> .


 
It has got nothing to do with child minding. And teaching is no more mentally draining than being a nurse or guard or numerous other jobs. 

You yourself say standards are falling. We can't afford to cut class sizes, we don't want to pay for special needs assistants, teachers say they can't attention to struggling students and better students are often fustrated. I am simply asking why teachers get the same time off as students when they could be used to help struggling students who want to learn or by offering extra grinds (instead of making money privately). I am not calling for teachers slavery. They are entitled to the same holidays as everyone else. I just don't understand why as a resource, they are used to maximum effect. It's the same across Europe.

Look at the money that grind schools make. There are a lot of students that want to learn or catch up. I would say you offer them a hour or two tutorial some days during Easter break and they would be delighted.


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## T McGibney (16 Jun 2011)

The last thing that children with learning difficulties want or need is additional classes in the summer when the sun is shining and their friends are playing and enjoying their childhood. God knows, these children are stigmatised enough as it is.


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## Sunny (16 Jun 2011)

T McGibney said:


> The last thing that children with learning difficulties want or need is additional classes in the summer when the sun is shining and their friends are playing and enjoying their childhood. God knows, these children are stigmatised enough as it is.


 
My God, I am not talking about locking them in a room for 8 hours a day for the summer. Also when does the sun ever shine?


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## T McGibney (16 Jun 2011)

Sunny said:


> My God, I am not talking about locking them in a room for 8 hours a day for the summer.



I never said you were.   That said, how is a child going to react when told they have to attend school for 'a few hours a day' during the holidays, because they didn't perform up to par with their classmates during school term?


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## Sunny (16 Jun 2011)

T McGibney said:


> I never said you were.  That said, how is a child going to react when told they have to attend school for 'a few hours a day' during the holidays, because they didn't perform up to par with their classmates during school term?


 
I am not saying make it compulsory. I am simply saying there might be kids out there that want to do something extra for any number of reasons. Not just talking about kids with learning difficulties. Look at the amount of kids who pay for grinds at Easter holidays or after normal school day? If a child is borderline honours/pass maths, maybe one or two hours a day for a couple of weeks during the summer could make all the difference.


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## T McGibney (16 Jun 2011)

Sunny said:


> *Not just* talking about kids with learning difficulties.



But you're still advocating extra classes for them, so my points above stand.



Sunny said:


> Look at the amount of kids who pay for grinds at Easter  holidays or after normal school day? If a child is borderline  honours/pass maths, maybe one or two hours a day for a couple of weeks  during the summer could make all the difference.



I don't agree that the State should provide extra-curricular grinds to selected students free of charge and at public expense, if only for reasons of equality.


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## Sunny (16 Jun 2011)

T McGibney said:


> But you're still advocating extra classes for them, so my points above stand.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't agree that the State should provide extra-curricular grinds to selected students free of charge and at public expense, if only for reasons of equality.


 
I would rather a person with learning difficulties got extra help if they wanted it if it meant missing a hour a day play time for a couple of weeks during the summer. I feel cruel.

I don't get your second point. Where I am saying selected students? I said *any *student that wants to to it. I never said free of charge or at increased public expense. That's the whole point of saying why aren't teachers available to do this work. I am not talking about hiring more and paying them extra. I just don't understand why we let a valuable resource like teachers disappear for a few months every summer. My girlfriends sister is heading off for two months next week and is been paid for every day she is away and fair play to her. I just don't get the profession. I haven't heard a logical reason for it yet.


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## T McGibney (16 Jun 2011)

Sunny said:


> I would rather a person with learning difficulties got extra help if they wanted it if it meant missing a hour a day play time for a couple of weeks during the summer. I feel cruel.



But you miss the rather obvious point that most children, by their nature, won't want extra class time.

 By contrast, their parents or guardians might, for various reasons, not  all of them honourable or consistent with the welfare, self-esteem or  happiness of the children. And I guess that in a lot of cases it will be  adults who make the decision for the children. 

Your anecdote about your girlfriend's sister is telling. If she's getting holidays next week, she's obviously a primary school teacher. Do you really expect many primary school children to decide that they want extra class time in Summer?



Sunny said:


> I don't get your second point. Where I am saying selected students? I said *any *student that wants to to it. I never said free of charge or at increased public expense.


Of course, any official programme of extra-curricular grinds is not going to apply to all children. Therefore by its nature it is only going to apply to a select subset of children.  Again I don't think that you have thought through the equality implications of this, especially as you now say that it wouldn't necessarily be provided free of charge to the student. Will it become acceptable for a teacher to say 'okay we won't bother revising that topic until August' when only those in the class who can afford to be there are present in August? And have you thought through the additional school transport, supervision, maintenance, caretaking, security and other cost implications of extending the active school term by a further 4-6 weeks? 



Sunny said:


> . I just don't understand why we let a valuable resource like teachers disappear for a few months every summer.



I don't understand either why the culture of presenteeism should have to extend to education, when it is doing so much harm elsewhere.


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## Purple (16 Jun 2011)

T McGibney said:


> I don't understand either why the culture of presenteeism should have to extend to education, when it is doing so much harm elsewhere.



Eh? 

What does that mean?


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## T McGibney (16 Jun 2011)

Purple said:


> Eh?
> 
> What does that mean?


The definition of Presenteeism is...



> , a relatively unknown concept, is the complement of  Absenteeism. It is defined as the measure of lost productivity cost due  to employees actually showing up for work, but not being fully engaged  and productive mainly because of personal health and life issue  distractions.


I think it is highly relevant to the spectre of children (especially those deemed by others to 'have learning difficulties' or other social development issues) being cooped up in additional classes, albeit on a purely 'voluntary' basis, during school holidays.


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## Purple (16 Jun 2011)

T McGibney said:


> The definition of Presenteeism is...



Yes, I know what it is, I’m confused as to how it applies to this issue.


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## T McGibney (16 Jun 2011)

Have I not explained? Or did our posts cross?


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## Purple (16 Jun 2011)

T McGibney said:


> Have I not explained? Or did our posts cross?



Our posts crossed.


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## liaconn (16 Jun 2011)

Sunny said:


> Ok, slightly off topic but here is a question about teaching hours that I don't understand. Not just with Irish teachers but with teachers across Europe. Why don't they work standardised days and get standard holidays like everyone else? Why don't they work 9-5 Monday to Friday even if teaching finishes at 3. That way they do administrative work afterwards. Same with holidays. Why do they they the same holidays as students? *Should they not be made to go into the school during holidays to do all the stuff that teachers say has to be done outside class?* During the summer, can they not offer a few hours teaching a day to children with learning difficulties or those who need extra help or might be interesting in learning more and then do administrative work as well.
> 
> Basically, why don't teachers in every Country work a standard week with standard annual leave entitlements? What am I missing?


 
What exactly would they spend the summer doing in the school? There is no homework to correct or classes to be prepared which is what teachers do outside school. I think, also, you will find that schoold principals are actually in school for a proportion of the holidays. How do you think new teachers are recruited, timetables are organised, necessary repairs are undertaken etc? It doesn't happen by magic.
I can't imagine too many kids would express an interest in 'learning more' during the holidays. How would you select which teachers would undertake this task for the minority who might want Summer grinds etc, while their colleagues enjoyed their holiday? It just wouldn't work.
Also, most schools have secretaries to do admin. work. Are you suggesting they be laid off?  What admin. work would the teachers do during the holidays?


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## csirl (16 Jun 2011)

liaconn said:


> What exactly would they spend the summer doing in the school? There is no homework to correct or classes to be prepared which is what teachers do outside school. I think, also, you will find that schoold principals are actually in school for a proportion of the holidays. How do you think new teachers are recruited, timetables are organised, necessary repairs are undertaken etc? It doesn't happen by magic.
> I can't imagine too many kids would express an interest in 'learning more' during the holidays. How would you select which teachers would undertake this task for the minority who might want Summer grinds etc, while their colleagues enjoyed their holiday? It just wouldn't work.
> Also, most schools have secretaries to do admin. work. Are you suggesting they be laid off? What admin. work would the teachers do during the holidays?


 
You could have mandatory summer school for weak students - dont they do this in the USA and elsewhere? Students who's grades are low are required to attend lessons in order to bring them up to standard. I would assume that all teachers would undertake the task - school would just run with its existing timetable for several more weeks, only difference is that there will be 5-6 kids in each class (allowing them to get more individual attention) instead of 20-30 kids. If the kids dont attend, then they repeat the year.


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## liaconn (16 Jun 2011)

csirl said:


> You could have mandatory summer school for weak students - dont they do this in the USA and elsewhere? Students who's grades are low are required to attend lessons in order to bring them up to standard. I would assume that all teachers would undertake the task - school would just run with its existing timetable for several more weeks, only difference is that there will be 5-6 kids in each class (allowing them to get more individual attention) instead of 20-30 kids.


 
So weak students get shorter holidays? That sounds incredibly unfair. Almost like a punishment for not being very bright. Not to mention labelling them in front of everyone.


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## csirl (16 Jun 2011)

liaconn said:


> So weak students get shorter holidays? That sounds incredibly unfair. Almost like a punishment for not being very bright. Not to mention labelling them in front of everyone.


 
Thats one way of looking at it. Alternatively, you could say that kids who work hard during the year are rewarded with longer holidays and kids who need extra tuition to bring them up to the same standard as the others get the help thus allowing them to start the new school year on a par with everyone else.


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## csirl (16 Jun 2011)

One aspect of the teachers T&C I would change, and which would save the State a load of money is the double payment for supervising State exams.

Full time teachers get paid for school holidays including the exam period. Yet the State pays them an additional full wage on top of their regular one for supervising State exams. Why can't they do the job for their existing wage? Afterall, we are already paying them a full wage for the duration of the State exams. I am very surprised that this is not one of the productivity issues in the Croke Park agreement.


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## Purple (16 Jun 2011)

liaconn said:


> So weak students get shorter holidays? That sounds incredibly unfair. Almost like a punishment for not being very bright..



Wait 'till they get into the real world.


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## Sunny (16 Jun 2011)

liaconn said:


> What exactly would they spend the summer doing in the school? There is no homework to correct or classes to be prepared which is what teachers do outside school. I think, also, you will find that schoold principals are actually in school for a proportion of the holidays. How do you think new teachers are recruited, timetables are organised, necessary repairs are undertaken etc? It doesn't happen by magic.
> I can't imagine too many kids would express an interest in 'learning more' during the holidays. How would you select which teachers would undertake this task for the minority who might want Summer grinds etc, while their colleagues enjoyed their holiday? It just wouldn't work.
> Also, most schools have secretaries to do admin. work. Are you suggesting they be laid off? What admin. work would the teachers do during the holidays?


 
I did extra classes during my holidays when I was in secondary school. Plenty of kids did. Many kids sign up to do supervised study groups or homework clubs after school (facilitated by teachers).

We want education to be productive but we don't want large class sizes. We want children with learning difficulties and special needs to get the same education as every other kid but we can't afford to pay for special needs teachers. We don't want to extend the length of the school day (fair enough). We want kids to choose subjects like maths and science which are teaching intensive subjects. We want all these things but yet we close our schools down for months during the year.

I know that principals work during the holidays but the vast majority of teachers don't. I just think it is a waste of resources. Things they could do during the quiet holiday period include training and development, class planning, individual student plans to name a few. How many of our teachers are actually trained to deal with special needs children? How many of our teachers need training? This can all be done during the summer months.


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## thedaras (16 Jun 2011)

If its any use here are the terms dates for schools in Ireland;

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/e.../school_terms_in_primary_and_postprimary.html

Term times for school in Uk;

http://www.cornwall.gov.uk/default.aspx?page=2309

And another example;

[broken link removed]

And this article in the Irish times;
[broken link removed]


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## Purple (16 Jun 2011)

Very good points Sunny


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## Mpsox (16 Jun 2011)

I've got mixed views on this. Firstly, a lot of good teachers work more hours then they actually spend in class, be it correcting homework or preparing lesson plans. Some other examples, my smallie is starting school in September and recently we attended a meeting for new parents which was held in the evening and the headmistress and 3 teachers were at it. In fairness, they were there til nearly 10 pm showing parents around and answering questions. Another example is a friend of mine who is a head master in a small country school, he usually spends a couple of weeks of the summer holidays fixing things in the school, organising maintenance people to come in (eg to fix the heating) etc.

Having said all of that, I do think our children don't spend enough time in schools and certainly, there is an arguement from an educational perspective for them spending more time in the classroom.

I'm also well aware that there are plenty of teachers out there who put very little in outside the classroom and are not much cop in it either. I'm sure everyone can remember teachers who inspried them to learn more and teachers who were a complete and utter waste of space. To me, the bigger issue is  how can we actually get rid of bad teachers and incentivise good ones.


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## T McGibney (16 Jun 2011)

Mpsox said:


> Having said all of that, I do think our children don't spend enough time in schools.



Would you care to expand on your reasons for thinking so?


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## liaconn (16 Jun 2011)

csirl said:


> Thats one way of looking at it. Alternatively, you could say that kids who work hard during the year are rewarded with longer holidays and kids who need extra tuition to bring them up to the same standard as the others get the help thus allowing them to start the new school year on a par with everyone else.


 But its not always down to working hard. Lots of children will only ever achieve a certain level because they are not particularly bright. Also, some children receive more support and assistance at home. It seems to me that the less fortunate kids will feel they're being punished and not as entitled to holidays as the luckier kids.


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## liaconn (16 Jun 2011)

Mpsox said:


> I've got mixed views on this. Firstly, a lot of good teachers work more hours then they actually spend in class, be it correcting homework or preparing lesson plans. Some other examples, my smallie is starting school in September and recently we attended a meeting for new parents which was held in the evening and the headmistress and 3 teachers were at it. In fairness, they were there til nearly 10 pm showing parents around and answering questions. Another example is a friend of mine who is a head master in a small country school, he usually spends a couple of weeks of the summer holidays fixing things in the school, organising maintenance people to come in (eg to fix the heating) etc.
> 
> Having said all of that, I do think our children don't spend enough time in schools and certainly, there is an arguement from an educational perspective for them spending more time in the classroom.
> 
> I'm also well aware that there are plenty of teachers out there who put very little in outside the classroom and are not much cop in it either. I'm sure everyone can remember teachers who inspried them to learn more and teachers who were a complete and utter waste of space. To me, the bigger issue is how can we actually get rid of bad teachers and incentivise good ones.


 
One thing I dont understand is why secondary schools close for so much longer than primary schools. Surely older children doing important exams should have the shorter holidays. I know the schools are used for Junior and leaving cert exams in June but surely they could either move those exams to July or find some other way around the problem. Schools in England don't close until mid July - after A adn O levels have been sat.


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## Shawady (16 Jun 2011)

My son is coming to the end of his first year in primary school.
He has had 2 weeks off for both Easter and Christmas and 2 one-week mid term breaks. Thats 6 weeks on top of the 9 weeks summer holidays.
IMO, it would not be unreasonable if the the Easter and Christmad break were only one week and the summer holidays were reduced by a week or two.
The children would still have a significant break during the summer and 4 one-week breaks throughout the school year.


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## truthseeker (16 Jun 2011)

csirl said:


> Thats one way of looking at it. Alternatively, you could say that kids who work hard during the year are rewarded with longer holidays and kids who need extra tuition to bring them up to the same standard as the others get the help thus allowing them to start the new school year on a par with everyone else.


 
Some kids dont need to work too hard to get stellar exam results, other kids work twice as hard and get bad results. It would come across as a reward for being bright or a punishment for not being bright.


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## liaconn (16 Jun 2011)

What about a family where one child is very bright and another child struggles. Does the struggling child have to suffer the ignomy of having to get up in the morning and go back into school while the brighter child gets a lie on and a trip to the beach? Does the family's Summer break in their mobile home or their grandparents house down the country have to be curtailed because the struggling child has to have extra lessons and be consequently made to feel like a nuisance to the family for being not very bright academically?


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## Sunny (16 Jun 2011)

Forget about extra classes for struggling students. Why do we give months off to students anyway? Especially in the leaving cert cycle and at third level. I am not having a go at teachers because this is not an Irish thing and there is obviously something specific to the sector that justifies it. I just want to know what it is. In my leaving cert year, myself and numerous friends went to grinds until 9pm every Friday just to stand still in subjects that we were not been taught properly. I was lucky that i could afford it. Most kids want to learn. As someone said earlier, there are wonderful teachers who are not paid enough (one gave me help for free because I was struggling) but it just strikes me as a very protected profession that is designed to suit the employees rather than the customers.


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## Mpsox (17 Jun 2011)

T McGibney said:


> Would you care to expand on your reasons for thinking so?


 
Because they don't. On average, once you factor in summer, easter and christmas holidays, mid term breaks, bank holidays, teacher training days, school trips etc etc, an average Irish child at national school spends 3 and a half days a week at school. In a non-exam year in secondry school, it's even less, about 3.2 days a week. 

I'm not saying that a child should be 9-5 52 weeks a year, they are children and need time to play etc, but why on earth do secondry school kids have 3 months off?


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## csirl (17 Jun 2011)

The original reason we have such a long summer break is so that children could help out on the farm during the busy harvest time in late summer/early autumn. Also the reason it is biased towards early autumn i.e. July/Aug rather than June/July. This reason no longer exists.


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## T McGibney (17 Jun 2011)

csirl said:


> The original reason we have such a long summer break is so that children could help out on the farm during the busy harvest time in late summer/early autumn. Also the reason it is biased towards early autumn i.e. July/Aug rather than June/July. This reason no longer exists.



This is an interesting theory but I'm not sure if it has any basis in reality. Its a long, long time since Britain was an agricultural nation, yet their school holidays are in July/August. Ditto any continental European country I can think of.


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## T McGibney (17 Jun 2011)

Mpsox said:


> Because they don't. On average, once you factor in summer, easter and christmas holidays, mid term breaks, bank holidays, teacher training days, school trips etc etc, an average Irish child at national school spends 3 and a half days a week at school. In a non-exam year in secondry school, it's even less, about 3.2 days a week.
> 
> I'm not saying that a child should be 9-5 52 weeks a year, they are children and need time to play etc, but why on earth do secondry school kids have 3 months off?



I don't dispute any of that, but you still haven't given a single reason why you think that children would benefit from spending longer at school.


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## Mpsox (17 Jun 2011)

T McGibney said:


> I don't dispute any of that, but you still haven't given a single reason why you think that children would benefit from spending longer at school.


 
Cause they might learn more. Why not extend the school day by half an hour for example and teach them a languague? Why not extend the school year by 2 or 3 weeks more and teach them more computer skills or maths. ?


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## Complainer (17 Jun 2011)

Mpsox said:


> Cause they might learn more. Why not extend the school day by half an hour for example and teach them a languague? Why not extend the school year by 2 or 3 weeks more and teach them more computer skills or maths. ?


Children also learn important life skills by playing pretend games with their friends, and by climbing trees, and by poking dead animals with sticks, and by visiting the beach, or their cousins, or an art gallery. There is more to life than classrooms (or publically paid childminding, as some people seem to expect).


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## thedaras (17 Jun 2011)

Mpsox said:


> Cause they might learn more. Why not extend the school day by half an hour for example and teach them a languague? Why not extend the school year by 2 or 3 weeks more and teach them more computer skills or maths. ?



Excellent point...I might add to that,perhaps the teachers who give grinds could do them at a reduced rate after the school day, thereby making use of the premises as well ?
Kids have all weekend,and after school to play pretend,and that only holds water up to a certain age.Though most of their friends are also in school so perhaps that would be an idea to add on to the school time?


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## Sunny (17 Jun 2011)

Complainer said:


> Children also learn important life skills by playing pretend games with their friends, and by climbing trees, and by poking dead animals with sticks, and by visiting the beach, or their cousins, or an art gallery. There is more to life than classrooms (or publically paid childminding, as some people seem to expect).


 
And not one person has suggested any of that should stop. I am simply trying to understand why teaching stops for such a length of time every year. There must be a reason because it happens in every country but no-one has said what it is. Why not keep the schools open during July and do half days and then close for August? That way kids can learn and still play in the nice weather in the afternoon. It's not exactly child cruelty. I am sure there is a very logical reason why it is not done though.


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## Deiseblue (17 Jun 2011)

Mpsox said:


> Cause they might learn more. Why not extend the school day by half an hour for example and teach them a languague? Why not extend the school year by 2 or 3 weeks more and teach them more computer skills or maths. ?



The main reason that the school year cannot be extended is that the school year is standardised by agreement between school managers , teacher unions , parent organisations & other relevant bodies.

The current agreement runs until Easter 2014.


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## Shawady (17 Jun 2011)

Mpsox said:


> Why not extend the school year by 2 or 3 weeks more and teach them more computer skills or maths. ?


 
Mpsox, you beat me to it.
I was just going to suggest something similar. Extend the school year by a few weeks and have something like a science week or maths week, where students could learn these subjects in a fun and practical way. These are subjects where we have apparentlyfallen behind.

Or have a cultural week focusing on countries like China, Japan or India and learn a small bit of the language.
It's never to young to introduce children to new things.


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## liaconn (17 Jun 2011)

Are people in favour of extending the school year because:

a. It would be better for the kids

b. It would shorten teachers' paid holidays

c. Its awkward finding childminders during the long holidays.

Personally I think secondary school holidays should be shortened. The kids are studying for exams and take a large number of subjects. They also get bored being off for three months and spend a lot of the time just hanging around aimlessly.

I think smaller kids benefit from a decent break and wouldn't be in favour of changing that.


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## Mpsox (17 Jun 2011)

Deiseblue said:


> The main reason that the school year cannot be extended is that the school year is standardised by agreement between school managers , teacher unions , parent organisations & other relevant bodies.
> 
> The current agreement runs until Easter 2014.


 
Then perhaps the challenge should be for the new Govt to renegotiate a new deal for post 2014, which is within the life time of the current Dail

It's astounds me that at a time when the whole country knows we are short of languague skills/math skills and sciences, we let secondry school kids have almost 4-5 months a year off school. That's not much of an investment for the future


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## Complainer (17 Jun 2011)

Shawady said:


> Or have a cultural week focusing on countries like China, Japan or India and learn a small bit of the language.
> It's never to young to introduce children to new things.


My daughter's school do this every year - intercultural week - with tasting of different foods, wearing of traditional clothes etc. They're not sitting round waiting for AAM to tell them how to do their business.



thedaras said:


> Kids have all weekend,and after school to play pretend,


No, they don't. They spend considerable amounts of after-school and weekend time doing homework.


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## T McGibney (17 Jun 2011)

T McGibney said:


> I don't dispute any of that, but you still  haven't given a single reason why you think that children would benefit  from spending longer at school.





Mpsox said:


> Cause they might learn more.



They might. Equally, they might learn less. The law of diminishing returns must kick in at some point, which brings us back to the 'presenteeism' conundrum.


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## thedaras (17 Jun 2011)

thedaras  
Kids have all weekend,and after school to play pretend.

Complainer;


> *No, they don't. They spend considerable amounts of after-school and weekend time doing homework.
> *



Ahh come on now,what child who "plays pretend ", spends considerable amounts of time doing homework!

Most kids in fact don't get any homework on Fridays,or at least in any of the schools my kids have been to in various areas of this country ..
I dont need anyone to mind my kids either..


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## Complainer (17 Jun 2011)

thedaras said:


> Ahh come on now,what child who "plays pretend ", spends considerable amounts of time doing homework!


Perhaps the 13 year old who was playing with my 7 year old last night?

The 'plays pretend' is of course a red herring, Kids get homework, and lots of it.


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## Deiseblue (17 Jun 2011)

Mpsox said:


> Then perhaps the challenge should be for the new Govt to renegotiate a new deal for post 2014, which is within the life time of the current Dail
> 
> It's astounds me that at a time when the whole country knows we are short of languague skills/math skills and sciences, we let secondry school kids have almost 4-5 months a year off school. That's not much of an investment for the future



The other argument is that the standardised school year is set by those most involved & those best qualified - school management , teachers & parent organisations.

From what I can gather direct Government involvement is minimal.


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## thedaras (17 Jun 2011)

Kids do get homework,but its age related and if they are spending considerable amounts of time doing it,there is something not right..

In my kids (primary )schools they correct each others homework....dare I say it..less work for the teacher! 

And there is much debate about the homework issue anyway,perhaps extra time in school would cover the need to have to do homework at all...


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## thedaras (17 Jun 2011)

Deiseblue said:


> The other argument is that the standardised school year is set by those most involved & those best qualified - school management , teachers & parent organisations.
> 
> From what I can gather direct Government involvement is minimal.


Did you forget to mention UNIONS in your list above?


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## liaconn (17 Jun 2011)

thedaras said:


> Kids do get homework,but its age related and if they are spending considerable amounts of time doing it,there is something not right..
> 
> *In my kids (primary )schools they correct each others homework....dare I say it..less work for the teacher*!
> 
> And there is much debate about the homework issue anyway,perhaps extra time in school would cover the need to have to do homework at all...


 
Have you raised this with the school? Maybe there's a theory behind it.

I agree with Complainer. I think younger children spend enough time sitting in a classroom and would prefer that they retained decent holidays and hours that give them lots of time to run around, have fun, develop hobbies and interests outside of school and basically be kids. If the teachers benefit as a result, so be it.


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## liaconn (17 Jun 2011)

thedaras said:


> Did you forget to mention UNIONS in your list above?


 

I doubt that Unions were consulted when the school days and holidays were originally set.


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## thedaras (17 Jun 2011)

It makes a bit of a mess of the teachers argument that they spend so much time correcting home work,when in fact in some cases the kids correct each others plus they dont get homework on Fridays.


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## thedaras (17 Jun 2011)

liaconn said:


> I doubt that Unions were consulted when the school days and holidays were originally set.



You can be guaranteed they will be consulted if there is any sniff of a change though..


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## liaconn (17 Jun 2011)

thedaras said:


> It makes a bit of a mess of the teachers argument that they spend so much time correcting home work,when in fact in some cases the kids correct each others plus they dont get homework on Fridays.


 
But most of them _do _correct homework. That's why I asked if you had spoken to the school. Does the teacher take any role in correcting? 

I think its a good idea to give young kids the weekend free from homework. I still remember that horrible feeling on a Sunday afternoon when you realised you still had to do it.


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## liaconn (17 Jun 2011)

thedaras said:


> You can be guaranteed they will be consulted if there is any sniff of a change though..


 
Well, surely that's fair enough. That's part of what unions do.


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## Deiseblue (17 Jun 2011)

thedaras said:


> Did you forget to mention UNIONS in your list above?



No , if you read my previous post ( post no. 42 ) I stated clearly that the standardised school year was set by school managers , teacher UNIONS ,parent organisations & other relevant bodies.


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## Complainer (17 Jun 2011)

thedaras said:


> It makes a bit of a mess of the teachers argument that they spend so much time correcting home work


Where or when did the teachers make this arguement?


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## Mpsox (17 Jun 2011)

Deiseblue said:


> No , if you read my previous post ( post no. 42 ) I stated clearly that the standardised school year was set by school managers , teacher UNIONS ,parent organisations & other relevant bodies.


 
Interesting that in post no 50 when you referred to "best qualified", you omitted unions. 

Some other thoughts, I know in the school my little un will be going to, 6th class pupils help out with junior and senior infants, the idea being that it will help teach the bigger kids responsibilities. I think that is an excellent idea

There are also a lot of post school activities, usually led by a teacher (school band, acting, cooking, computers etc). To me, teachers who go the extra mile like that should be rewarded more.


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## thedaras (17 Jun 2011)

Deiseblue said:


> No , if you read my previous post ( post no. 42 ) I stated clearly that the standardised school year was set by school managers , teacher UNIONS ,parent organisations & other relevant bodies.



Yep but did you forget to mention it here?;




Deiseblue said:


> The other argument is that the standardised school year is set by those most involved & those best qualified - *school management , teachers & parent organisations.*
> 
> From what I can gather direct Government involvement is minimal.


Dont see any mention of unions there.


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## liaconn (17 Jun 2011)

thedaras said:


> Yep but did you forget to mention it here?;
> 
> 
> 
> Dont see any mention of unions there.


 
Because the Unions don't 'set' the school year. They would be involved in ensuring that teachers' rights as employees are respected, that's all.


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## thedaras (17 Jun 2011)

Semantics Liaconn..its all vested interests that are "setting" the times ..and it does all depend on the agenda of those who "set " the term dates.

I wonder if there was an independent group ,what their opinion of the school hours/holidays would be..


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## liaconn (17 Jun 2011)

No, its not semantics. The Union has a particular role and that role does not include setting the school year. It includes a negotiation role if their members have legitimate concerns about any changes. But there's absolutely no way they can just insist that the school year is to be nice and short so the teachers can have lovely holidays.


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## Deiseblue (17 Jun 2011)

Deiseblue said:


> The other argument is that the standardised school year is set by those most involved & those best qualified - school management , teachers & parent organisations.
> 
> From what I can gather direct Government involvement is minimal.



To clarify matters , let me state that that the other argument is that the standardised school year is set by those most involved & those best qualified - school management , teacher unions representing their members & parent bodies.

The omission of any reference to unions was not in any way deliberate as a reading of my post no. 42 surely demonstrates ?

The standardised school year has been agreed , such agreement continues until Easter 2014 & the above mentioned parties will then meet again to standardise the school year for a further period.


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## thedaras (17 Jun 2011)

And therein lies the problem ...nothing will change..we need an independent body to set the school term times..

A principal/manager wouldn't stand a chance.The parents wouldn't stand a chance, the only ones that would have any power in the above agreement are the teachers and the unions..as unless you have their agreement its a waste of the paper its not written on.


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## liaconn (17 Jun 2011)

thedaras said:


> And therein lies the problem ...nothing will change..we need an independent body to set the school term times..
> 
> A principal/manager wouldn't stand a chance.The parents wouldn't stand a chance, the only ones that would have any power in the above agreement are the teachers and the unions..as unless you have their agreement its a waste of the paper its not written on.


 
And who would the independent body consist of? What expertise would they need?


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## Complainer (17 Jun 2011)

thedaras said:


> And therein lies the problem ...nothing will change..we need an independent body to set the school term times..
> 
> A principal/manager wouldn't stand a chance.The parents wouldn't stand a chance, the only ones that would have any power in the above agreement are the teachers and the unions..as unless you have their agreement its a waste of the paper its not written on.


Just help me understand this - you'd be quite happy for YOUR employer to be able to unilaterally change your working hours/days without any discussion, consultation or negotation - right?


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## T McGibney (17 Jun 2011)

Yes we definitely need yet another quango


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## Deiseblue (17 Jun 2011)

thedaras said:


> And therein lies the problem ...nothing will change..we need an independent body to set the school term times..
> 
> A principal/manager wouldn't stand a chance.The parents wouldn't stand a chance, the only ones that would have any power in the above agreement are the teachers and the unions..as unless you have their agreement its a waste of the paper its not written on.




But that's working on the presumption that there is a problem.

I have seen no great outcry about the standardised school year - most parents seem quite happy with the current position , no call from the Government or parent organisations for any change to the current position.

So there we are until 2014 when the school year will be reviewed again.


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## liaconn (17 Jun 2011)

Deiseblue said:


> But that's working on the presumption that there is a problem.
> 
> I have seen no great outcry about the standardised school year - most parents seem quite happy with the current position , no call from the Government or parent organisations for any change to the current position.
> 
> So there we are until 2014 when the school year will be reviewed again.


 
Exactly. Surely if huge numbers of parents had a problem they would be lobbying for changes?


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## Mpsox (17 Jun 2011)

liaconn said:


> Exactly. Surely if huge numbers of parents had a problem they would be lobbying for changes?


 
And yet, why do so many parents send their children for grinds?


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## Deiseblue (17 Jun 2011)

Mpsox said:


> And yet, why do so many parents send their children for grinds?



For concentrated one - to - one attention in surroundings where the pupil's mind does not have the opportunity to wander ?


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## liaconn (17 Jun 2011)

Mpsox said:


> And yet, why do so many parents send their children for grinds?


 
Like I said in a previous post I personally think three months for secondary school kids is too long. However, there doesn't seem to be a general demand to shorten the holidays and, as I am neither a parent or a teacher, I am no expert.

I don't think any primary school children go for grinds.


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## thedaras (17 Jun 2011)

Double posted,apoligies


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## thedaras (17 Jun 2011)

Deiseblue said:


> But that's working on the presumption that there is a problem.
> 
> I have seen no great outcry about the standardised school year - most parents seem quite happy with the current position , no call from the Government or parent organisations for any change to the current position.
> 
> So there we are until 2014 when the school year will be reviewed again.



Yes, it is working on the presumption that there is a problem..
And yes I agree also that there is no great outcry.
And yes, we are where we are until 2014.
Maybe people are very happy with the school term times..thats fine,I was just putting my opinion forward,as are those who see no problem with it..


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## thedaras (17 Jun 2011)

thedaras;





> A principal/manager wouldn't stand a chance.The parents wouldn't stand a chance, the only ones that would have any power in the above agreement are the teachers and the unions..as unless you have their agreement its a waste of the paper its not written on.


.



Complainer said:


> Just help me understand this - you'd be quite happy for YOUR employer to be able to unilaterally change your working hours/days without any discussion, consultation or negotation - right?



Which is why I wrote,their agreement would have to be given (but perhaps you missed that bit)..


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## thedaras (17 Jun 2011)

Deiseblue said:


> For concentrated one - to - one attention in surroundings where the pupil's mind does not have the opportunity to wander ?



Most grinds are done in "grind schools".where there are the same amount of pupils (some obviously have less students as do some schools) so no ,I dont think that is the answer.


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## Deiseblue (17 Jun 2011)

thedaras said:


> Most grinds are done in "grind schools".where there are the same amount of pupils (some obviously have less students as do some schools) so no ,I dont think that is the answer.



In my experience most grinds are given on a one to basis.

Guess we'll have to disagree on that one .


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## liaconn (17 Jun 2011)

thedaras said:


> thedaras;.
> 
> 
> 
> Which is why I wrote,their agreement would have to be given (but perhaps you missed that bit)..


 
I must have missed it as well. You seemed to be saying an independent body should be set up rather than having teachers and unions involved.


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## liaconn (17 Jun 2011)

thedaras said:


> Most grinds are done in "grind schools".where there are the same amount of pupils (some obviously have less students as do some schools) so no ,I dont think that is the answer.


 
Perhaps the reason people need grinds is because of the amount of subjects they have to study for the leaving cert. Someone in work yesterday was just saying that in Northern Irl where she comes from there is nothing like the number of students having grinds because students specialise in 3 subjects for their A levels. Having to study 7 subjects at leaving cert standard in 2 years is unrealistic, in my view.


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## thedaras (17 Jun 2011)

liaconn said:


> Perhaps the reason people need grinds is because of the amount of subjects they have to study for the leaving cert. Someone in work yesterday was just saying that in Northern Irl where she comes from there is nothing like the number of students having grinds because students specialise in 3 subjects for their A levels. Having to study 7 subjects at leaving cert standard in 2 years is unrealistic, in my view.



Yes I agree with you..

Its the same in Scotland and I think Italy as well,the students specialise in certain subjects that they have a particular interest/flair for.

I agree ,there are way too many subjects to cover.
Smacks of jack of all trades..


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## thedaras (17 Jun 2011)

liaconn said:


> I must have missed it as well. You seemed to be saying an independent body should be set up rather than having teachers and unions involved.


Well here it is again;

thedaras;





> And therein lies the problem ...nothing will change..we need an independent body to set the school term times..
> 
> A principal/manager wouldn't stand a chance.The parents wouldn't stand a chance, the only ones that would have any power in the above agreement are the teachers and the unions.


.*as unless you have their agreement its a waste of the paper its not written on.*[/QUOTE]

Yes,I do think we need an independent body,and not rely on vested interests to set the term times,it is after all human nature to look after number one.
My point is that unless the teachers and unions are in agreement with any change to the term times,there is little or no chance of anything happening,so yes we need their agreement..and why would they agree!!


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## Deiseblue (17 Jun 2011)

As there is little or no visible public demand for an extension to the standardised school year perhaps we should accept that the deciding body as currently constituted have got things right ?

After all aren't the parent organisations part of the deciding process ?


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## Mpsox (20 Jun 2011)

Deiseblue said:


> As there is little or no visible public demand for an extension to the standardised school year perhaps we should accept that the deciding body as currently constituted have got things right ?
> 
> After all aren't the parent organisations part of the deciding process ?


 
Actually, the Labour party are looking at possibly extending the school year to improve literacy levels and also summer literacy camps. 
[broken link removed]


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## Deiseblue (20 Jun 2011)

Mpsox said:


> Actually, the Labour party are looking at possibly extending the school year to improve literacy levels and also summer literacy camps.
> [broken link removed]



There is no reference to extending the school year in that article.

There is a reference to giving consideration to extending the primary school day by half an hour for schools who do not meet literacy targets.

The plan to improve levels of literacy by devoting more time to the problem is to be applauded & hopefully this will enable all schools to meet targets.


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## Mpsox (20 Jun 2011)

Deiseblue said:


> There is no reference to extending the school year in that article.
> 
> There is a reference to giving consideration to extending the primary school day by half an hour for schools who do not meet literacy targets.
> 
> The plan to improve levels of literacy by devoting more time to the problem is to be applauded & hopefully this will enable all schools to meet targets.


 
Absolutley agree, my arguement is not that the school year needs to be extended(although that's one option) but rather that kids, in general, spend too little time in school in Ireland. It would be good to see specific targerts set as well, although unless action gets taken against teachers who persistantly fail to meet their targets (and I accept there may need to be allowances for the circumstances of the class being taught) targets don't mean much.


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## liaconn (20 Jun 2011)

I would have no problem with the school day and year being regularly reviewed. But when the starting point of the argument is 'why should teachers get such long holidays'  the discussion loses any validity.


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## Purple (20 Jun 2011)

liaconn said:


> I would have no problem with the school day and year being regularly reviewed. But when the starting point of the argument is 'why should teachers get such long holidays'  the discussion loses any validity.



I agree.
That said I don't know any parent that is happy that their childs school year is so short.
I also don't know any parent who's stupid enough to think it will change any time soon.


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## Sunny (20 Jun 2011)

liaconn said:


> I would have no problem with the school day and year being regularly reviewed. But when the starting point of the argument is 'why should teachers get such long holidays' the discussion loses any validity.


 
But why should they? Everyone gets all antsy when the question is asked but nobody gives a proper answer to explain it. It's like when you criticise nurses. As has already being mentioned, we have all these teachers and yet we still pay over 100 euro a day for nearly 5000 exam superintendents and over 6000 examiners. Why are we letting people go on holidays when there is work to be done and then pay them extra to come in and do the work? 

Are we honestly saying that every secondary school teacher fits in a standard working year in the 33 weeks that they are required to be in school? Even if they work an extra 20 hours a week on top of the 22 contracted teaching hours, they are working 1386 hours a year. It would only take someone working a 35 hour week, 39.5 weeks to match that. Anyone here getting 12.5 weeks holidays?? 

Fair play to teachers. It is not their fault but are we honestly saying that we are getting the most out of a valuable resource?


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## liaconn (20 Jun 2011)

Sunny said:


> But why should they? Everyone gets all antsy when the question is asked but nobody gives a proper answer to explain it. It's like when you criticise nurses. As has already being mentioned, we have all these teachers and yet we still pay over 100 euro a day for nearly 5000 exam superintendents and over 6000 examiners. Why are we letting people go on holidays when there is work to be done and then pay them extra to come in and do the work?
> 
> Are we honestly saying that every secondary school teacher fits in a standard working year in the 33 weeks that they are required to be in school? Even if they work an extra 20 hours a week on top of the 22 contracted teaching hours, they are working 1386 hours a year. It would only take someone working a 35 hour week, 39.5 weeks to match that. Anyone here getting 12.5 weeks holidays??
> 
> Fair play to teachers. It is not their fault but are we honestly saying that we are getting the most out of a valuable resource?


 
I am saying that the school year or day should only be extended, or extra classes organised during holidays if it is to the benefit of the children, their development and their well being. Whether or not the teachers benefit as well from the hours is not the point. Stretching them or bringing less bright children into school during the holidays simply to get more out of the teachers would be wrong. That should only be done if it is good for the children.


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