# Club member--discount to seniors is it discrimination?



## 8till8 (13 Feb 2007)

Hi,

Thoughts/views appreciated on following;

I'm a member of sporting club that wants to offer 50% off to members over 66 who have been members for over 10yrs.

Is this unequal treatment based on age? 
Also is it legally unfair to new members of 66 who have to serve 10yrs before getting discount?


----------



## rmelly (13 Feb 2007)

in the same way that motor insurance can be ageist etc.

it appears that it is okay to discriminate against young people, but not old people...


----------



## Diziet (13 Feb 2007)

rmelly said:


> in the same way that motor insurance can be ageist etc.
> 
> it appears that it is okay to discriminate against young people, but not old people...


 

Insurance is related to risk, and as long as the risk is greater for younger people it is not discriminatory to offer higher rates.

As for the club - I don't know. But the parallel with insurance is meaningless.


----------



## Spicey (13 Feb 2007)

Hi 8till8!

I think it is a fair policy and seems to be quite the normal practice! Don't forget that the majority of people over 65 are probably retired and living on a pension! 
As for the 10 year issue - this may be a little harsh but is probably fair to the genuine member that has been involved in the organisation for a number of years - has contributed financially to it and obviously has a keen interest - as opposed to the person just retired and looking for something to do in their spare time!

Spicey


----------



## Leroy42 (13 Feb 2007)

Just because it is normal practice does not make it right. Was it not 'normal' practice for Prtmarknock Golf Club to no allow women members.

Rmelly has a valid point. I understand the risk arguement in insurance, but based on that why is community rating seen as a goo idea in medical insurance. Based on risk profiles, it is obvious that older people need more care.

8till8, it is a clear case of age discrimination, the only deciding factor is based on age! To make it legit, it would have to be open to all members who have been there for >10 years. The fact that pensioners has less money has no relevance.


----------



## gearoid (13 Feb 2007)

Hi All,
Private Sports Clubs can make up their own rules. 
This is not a discrimination issue.

My own club has a rule that student membership only applies to those under 24. It may seem unfair to some but it is up to the members to decide what is fair and unfair.

Gearoid


----------



## Spicey (14 Feb 2007)

Leroy42 said:


> The fact that pensioners has less money has no relevance.


 
Well now Leroy42 - maybe you should have a chat to a few pensioners and let them know that just because they have less money it should not be taken into account with regard to any of their club fees, electricity bills, phone bills, bin charges, bus fares, train tickets.................................!!!

Let us know what they say!!!

Spicey


----------



## Leroy42 (14 Feb 2007)

Spicey,

You and me meet in pub, we both order pints, the barman charges you €4.75.  It's a nice pint.  I get my pint, same brand, same barman, but when asked to pay I say that I'm on less money than you, barman agrees this is a good point and charges me €2.50.  It's a nice pint.

Does this seem fair?  The hypocrisy in relation to age in Ireland is staggering.  The agruement that it is a private club has been shown to be constitutionally incorrect, i.e. Portmarknock Golf Club.

I am not against the state looking after the vunerable, be it the young, old whatever.  It is the states job, and in the interest of the state to provide for the whole of society.

However, I cannot turn down a job applicant purely on age, so why can a club decide the price based on age.  By definition, if age is the only factor, then it is age discrimination.

The original question was "Is this unequal treatment based on age?", and it clearly is.  Your arguement that they are deserving is of no relevance.

As I said before, the fact that it happens does not make it right.


----------



## pat127 (14 Feb 2007)

gearoid said:


> Hi All,
> Private Sports Clubs can make up their own rules.
> This is not a discrimination issue.
> 
> ...


 
Discrimination is addressed under the Employment Equality Acts 1998/2004, the key word being 'Employment'. I don't know if there is any Act that would have any bearing on the fees set by a private club or organisation. If the OP thinks what's happening is unfair and wants to do something about it he'd have to take it up with the Committee I suppose.


----------



## CCOVICH (14 Feb 2007)

The same policy applies on public transport and many others areas. I doubt that there is any leagl basis for action on this point.


----------



## Spicey (14 Feb 2007)

Leroy42;366126 [/QUOTE said:
			
		

> However, I cannot turn down a job applicant purely on age, so why can a club decide the price based on age. By definition, if age is the only factor, then it is age discrimination.


 
Leroy42,

You should note that the above statement is quite incorrect. You can turn down an applicant purely on an age basis i.e. you cannot employ a person under the age of 16 for a regular job!

Also you should think of the younger members of a sporting organisation. Do you think it would be fair to charge a 12, 14, 16 year old the same fee as an adult?? Likewise it is unfair to expect 75 and 85 year old members to pay the same fees. Another reason why a younger or older member is allowed a reduced fee is because in most cases they do not use the facilities as much. In my opinion there should also be a further reduction in price for members over 80 years of age. 

You agree with the state looking after the young and elderly but you should also consider a family going to the cinema or even the Zoo for example - there is a different charge for children, adults and seniors!! Do you think this is age discrimination????? Do you think that everyone should be charged the same amount across the board?? Surely not.

By the way - have you not heard of the pensioners pint????

Spicey


----------



## ney001 (14 Feb 2007)

Are we so PC nowadays that we begrudge reduced rates to our seniors in case they get something that we don't get??  

surely reduced rate takes into account that the individual may have retired and therefore not in the same earning category as us young 'uns, it will also encourage older generation to exercise and look after themselves which can only be a good thing.  I would agree with any club that gives a discount to seniors and juniors for that matter.


----------



## joanmul (14 Feb 2007)

It sounds to me that your sporting club is a golf club.  We have, in our club, a reduced membership for Seniors, but they have restricted playing rights i.e. they may play Mondays to Saturdays only.  There is a waiting list a mile long for this 'priviledge'.  It's not ageist and it's optional.   Any member may continue paying the full sub and playing at any time but it's very easy to see their limitations as they get older and many are glad to be able to play at a more leisurely pace than try to keep up with the young guns!


----------



## gearoid (14 Feb 2007)

I must admit I came away from a very busy two year stint helping to run a sports club mightily disillusioned. 

By and large sports clubs are non-profit making bodies that only function on the thankless and voluntary efforts of a minority of members. 

While I agree that issues such as women's rights in golf clubs needed to be addressed, I can't see the comparison between employment legislation and the rules of sports clubs as valid. It is for instance practically impossible to remove misbehaving members from sports clubs. 

What infuriated me was the whinging of many who had never contributed to the wellbeing of the club, and also on occasion the supposed "rights-based" and overly-litigious behaviour of the few. 

If you don't like what's going on in a club then leave it, or contribute positively in a way that tries to change club rules or policies. 

Gearoid


----------



## KalEl (14 Feb 2007)

Leroy42 said:


> Was it not 'normal' practice for Portmarknock Golf Club to not allow women members.


 
Portmarnock actually won their case regarding lady members. 
The comparison is not valid.


----------



## redstar (16 Feb 2007)

8till8 said;


> ... wants to offer 50% off to members over 66 who have been members for over 10yrs



Gearoid said;


> Private Sports Clubs can make up their own rules.
> This is not a discrimination issue.




I wonder what would be the situation if the club rule was;
"...wants to offer 50% off to WHITE-members over 66 who have been members for over 10yrs"


----------



## gearoid (16 Feb 2007)

I'm not suggesting clubs can ignore legislation in areas such as equality, and for instance child protection. I would suggest though that it is perfectly reasonable to provide differently for members on the basis of age and employment status in areas such as junior and student membership, membership for the unemployed, and seniors/OAPs. It is also perfectly reasonable to be giving discounts or life memberships to those who have supported the club over a long number of years.

What does concern me is that clubs can be adversely affected by people applying over legalistic approaches to areas such as club membership. I can give an instance where one person, who had defaulted on their membership, threatened to sue an officer of the club who asked other members to pay a visitors fee for said person.


----------



## Guest127 (16 Feb 2007)

interrailing around europe tickets are confined to under 26. you can't vote under 18. you can't driver under 17. you wont get a state oap until you are 66. you cant bet if you are underage. your _shouldn't_ have sex until you are 16 . and if you are really really really thoughtful you should just die at 60 and stop annoying younger people.


----------



## pat127 (16 Feb 2007)

redstar said:


> 8till8 said;
> 
> 
> Gearoid said;
> ...


 
There are 2 sections in the Equal Status Act 2000 which are 8. Discriminating Clubs and 9. Non-Discriminating Clubs which may provide answers to this question and to the OP's. I can't make any sense of it though! Any lawyer willing to have a go?

http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/bills28/acts/2000/a800.pdf


----------



## teecee (16 Feb 2007)

I'm delighted that more companies are offering reduced rates to seniors.  They are the ones who paid huge taxes/huge interest rates for many years and laid the foundation for the economy that we have now. It's about time they got some breaks after years of precious few. Ask any of your parents/grandparents what it was like when they were working and you might be surprised at the their answers. Our generation are the lucky ones that we can afford to go to gyms/clubs etc. We should be thanking the older generation rather than begrudging them a few euro in savings.


----------



## joanmul (17 Feb 2007)

teecee said:


> I'm delighted that more companies are offering reduced rates to seniors. They are the ones who paid huge taxes/huge interest rates for many years and laid the foundation for the economy that we have now. It's about time they got some breaks after years of precious few. Ask any of your parents/grandparents what it was like when they were working and you might be surprised at the their answers. Our generation are the lucky ones that we can afford to go to gyms/clubs etc. We should be thanking the older generation rather than begrudging them a few euro in savings.


Hear Hear!


----------



## 8till8 (19 Feb 2007)

Great issues raised--thanks to everyone.

In this club (its not a golf club) we offer discounts to students, so on balance, it isn't unreasonable to offer discounts to seniors as well. 

However students don't have to serve 10yrs to get the special rate so why should seniors? I think that particular point is the discriminatory aspect and my understanding is that at any particular point everyone should be treated fairly, not based on length of membership.


----------

