# Social Insurance Contributions



## Bracklough (15 Dec 2008)

I worked as an apprentice in Ireland from 1971 to 1975.
I found out recently that social insurance contributions where only credited for 1 year.
I sent all the job related information I had to the local social insurance office.
I called the welfare office today and the Social Insurance Investigator told me that the contributions that were made were Class J contributions and were not of any use for pension contributions. He said this was the case for all apprentices back then.
This amazes me – You work full time for 5 years, yet your social insurance  contributions were not considered for pension purposes.
Can anyone confirm if this is true?


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## ClubMan (15 Dec 2008)

Any use?


> *PRSI Class J*
> 
> People within CLASS J:
> 
> ...


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## Bracklough (15 Dec 2008)

Thanks Clubman:

I asked the Social Insurance Investigator if this was the case with apprentices in Ireland now and he told that presently apprentices were covered under class A contributions. Well I am glad that they rectified that!
This makes a difference to me in that I live in Canada. A bi-lateral agreement exists between Canada and Ireland regarding social welfare contributions. 

From the agreement:



> The Old Age Security program covers most persons who live or have lived in Canada. The Old Age Security pension is payable at the age of 65 to persons who meet certain residence conditions. To qualify for this pension in Canada, you normally must have lived in this country for at least 10 years after the age of 18. You normally need 20 years of residence in Canada after the same age to receive an Old Age Security pension outside Canada.
> What happens if you do not qualify for a Canadian Old Age Security pension because you have not lived in Canada for the minimum number of years? Under the Agreement, Canada will consider periods of contribution to the pension program of Ireland and periods of residence in Ireland after the age of 18 as periods of residence in Canada.


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## ClubMan (15 Dec 2008)

Double check that _PRSI _contributions/credits of the correct class were made. Perhaps it is just a mistake? For what it's worth here's an earlier thread of mine about something that might be pertinent here but you probably know this already!


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## Bracklough (15 Dec 2008)

Thanks again Clubman:

The plot thickens:

Took your advise about checking the contribution class and called 
Records Section in Dublin to verify contribution class and was advised that it was ordinary class or Class A contributions.

Called back to the Social Welfare Investigator and asked him to tell me again what class he determined my contributions were, and again he said Class J.
I told him I had called the Records Office and they told me that they were Class A. 
He said "that was their opinion" and he was sending in a report that "because in his determination my contributions were Class J he was not going to continue an investigation into my 4 years of "missing contributions" as Class J contributions were of no benefit to me pension wise.
He said I could appeal the decision the department would make.
When I queried him on this he seemed to get somewhat annoyed and said he based his decision of what Class my contributions were on "many years of experience he had" in the job.
So from what I can see he is making a subjective decision on factual records???
The logic here escapes me!!


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## Welfarite (15 Dec 2008)

An investigator cannot make a decision. All he does is investigate the level, type, etc. of your employmentf. He submits his report on the facts (as you state) to the Records Section who decide what should be credited to your record.  Querying him will only elicidate what he submitted in his report (I'm surprised he even kept a copy of it...maybe he just remebers the case?). I would ask for a written copy of your rofficial record form the Records section. That is the version that matters.

I vaguely recall that apprentices were determined at Class J up to about ten years ago. Then they changed the rules on it. But if records say they have you as Class A, take their word on it! And get it in writing in case of future queries!


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## Bracklough (15 Dec 2008)

Yes, I have asked for a copy of the records.


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## Bracklough (16 Dec 2008)

> I vaguely recall that apprentices were determined at Class J up to about ten years ago. Then they changed the rules on it. But if records say they have you as Class A, take their word on it! And get it in writing in case of future queries!


For apprentices on Block Release from an employer it looks like Class A applied at least 24 years ago:

[FONT=PrimaSans BT,Verdana,sans-serif]http://historical-debates.oireachtas.ie/D/0348/D.0348.198402280059.html[/FONT]


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## Welfarite (16 Dec 2008)

Bracklough said:


> For apprentices on Block Release from an employer it looks like Class A applied at least 24 years ago:
> 
> [FONT=PrimaSans BT,Verdana,sans-serif][URL="http://historical-debates.oireachtas.ie/D/0348/D.0348.198402280059.html"]http://historical-debates.oireachtas.ie/D/0348/D.0348.198402280059.html[/FONT][/URL]


 
Jeeze, am I that old????


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## Bracklough (16 Dec 2008)

> Jeeze, am I that old????


Not as old as me 
Now I am searching for info. to confirm that this was the case in the period 1970-1975.

If anyone has a link or any information that apprentices paid "ordinary" (Class A) contributions in that period I really would appreciate it.

I've gone the obvious route of contacting the Dept. and Citizen Information Board by phone. 
Responses ranged from "we don't know", or "call this number" or "why do you want to know" followed by "we don't know".
By email - No response.


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## ClubMan (17 Dec 2008)

If necessary get onto your local elected representatives. I'm not mad about this route but it can work. And with elections next year they might be extra eager to help...


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## Black Sheep (17 Dec 2008)

If the records section have told you that class A contribution was recorded then all you need is that record on their offical paper. 
If this is for pension purposes make sure you get a full record of all contributions paid and credited during your working life


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## Bracklough (18 Dec 2008)

Thanks Clubman and Black Sheep.

The contributions credited at "ordinary" or Class A as they are now known were for the year 1970.

I am missing 4 more years of contributions that should be credited to me.

Sent all the info. I had regarding employment: AnCo Block Release Courses and AnCo apprenticeship registration card and AnCo completion of apprenticeship card and names of people who I had known during my employment to Social Welfare Investigator 3 months ago.
He did not investigate because he determined that my contributions would be at Class J and were therefore of no benefit to me.
When I told him that the existing contributions were at Class A according to the Social Welfare Records Office, he said that "That was their opinion."
and he based his conclusion on his "many years of work experience".
So now I wait for a decision to be made at the Department in Dublin.

If I am to accept his logic then anyone who was an apprentice in any trade back in the 1970's has 5 year's of Social Insurance contributions at Class J which are essentially useless for State Contributory Pension purposes.


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