# Religion in School



## casiopea (27 Aug 2007)

In the spirit of debating Religion (respectfully) I was wondering how people feel about Religion continued to being taught in Schools?  There have been many debates about Irish coming off the syllabus I assume people feel similarly about Religion.

Do all schools in Ireland still have to teach religion?
If you are a practicing Atheist/Agnostic can you get your child out of religion class?  Or are you still interested in them attending religion (so they appreciate what you don't believe in)?


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## TheBlock (27 Aug 2007)

I don't believe Educate Together facilities have Religion on the Syllabus.


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## Caveat (27 Aug 2007)

I'm sure a lot of schools, having origins in various religious orders, would take issue with kids being exempted from RE/RI on atheist/agnostic grounds.

Maybe the trend should be to move towards a 'religious appreciation' type class? The teaching of an awareness of different belief systems etc with more of an emphasis on the moral values of each? It might be tricky for teachers to negotiate but it would encourage debate and independent thinking I'm sure.


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## nelly (27 Aug 2007)

Caveat said:


> Maybe the trend should be to move towards a 'religious appreciation' type class? The teaching of an awareness of different belief systems etc with more of an emphasis on the moral values of each? It might be tricky for teachers to negotiate but it would encourage debate and independent thinking I'm sure.


They do this in the UK i think. It seems to e a better foot forward than total removal- after all those with no religion must live alongside others who do have a faith and an understanding of all faiths would be no load to carry in life. 
teachers in schools with religions ethos are not as into it as they once were anyway.


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## sinbadsailor (27 Aug 2007)

Religion is something that the family should have 100% control over. Even within the same religion there are varying degrees of how that religion is followed and the one size fits all course that would be taught in school  would not be a good idea.

Leave the responsibility with the parent's and immediate family and let schools focus on the important educational subjects.


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## room305 (27 Aug 2007)

Granted it was more than a decade ago but religion class in the Catholic school I attended did cover all of the world's major religions, along with a section detailing the dangers of cults.

It was really more of a civics class, being careful to not push one particular religion but always pushing the concept of religion itself. It still didn't stop the school from barring a friend who was Church of Ireland from attending the class, but they wouldn't grant me leave not to attend! That said, I found the insistence on every address beginning with the reciting of prayers more annoying than the religion class itself, which could actually be quite interesting.

The best move would be to get the church out of public school education entirely but that wouldn't preclude religion being taught as a subject in schools.


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## Caveat (27 Aug 2007)

room305 said:


> It still didn't stop the school from barring a friend who was Church of Ireland from attending the class


 
Actually _*barred*_? On what grounds? Happy enough to accept him/her into the school though


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## contemporary (27 Aug 2007)

I couldnt believe when i heard recently that religion is now a leaving cert subject, i think that religion should be replaced as a leaving cert subject with something like drivers education, i would go as far as saying that every school child should leave secondary school with a full drivers licence


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## Thirsty (27 Aug 2007)

> I don't believe Educate Together facilities have Religion on the Syllabus.


All primary schools are required to have a religious education curriculum.  In Multi-Denominational schools this is interpreted as encompassing all major world religions/cultures but does not include any doctrinal education.

For more info see www.educatetogether.ie

The second level syllabus (available on www.education.ie) is very heavily biased towards Judeo-Christian religions (at least to JC level - I haven't reviewed the LC one as neither of my children are taking it as a LC subject).


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## room305 (27 Aug 2007)

Caveat said:


> Actually _*barred*_? On what grounds? Happy enough to accept him/her into the school though



He wasn't allowed attend anyway. It was a Catholic school religion class, so I presume they were entitled to implement a "Catholics-kids-only" policy. He sat outside the principal's office with another kid who was Church of England and an American kid of indeterminate religious status.


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## Caveat (27 Aug 2007)

room305 said:


> of indeterminate religious status.


 
  I like it!


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## casiopea (27 Aug 2007)

contemporary said:


> I couldnt believe when i heard recently that religion is now a leaving cert subject



Has that happened?  I had spoken with someone from the department of education (about 18months back) who was working on a proposal that R.E. would be removed as it currently stands and gets replaced by Theology.  It would become dramatically less "Catholic" focused with the curriculum focusing on Christianity and world religions.  I believe part of the proposal was that its mandatory for intercert and optional for the leaving cert (ie in the same way most subjects are chosen with the exception of the main 3 or 4).  I thought it sounded very interesting, but I didn't think it would ever happen.



> Religion is something that the family should have 100% control over. Even within the same religion there are varying degrees of how that religion is followed and the one size fits all course that would be taught in school would not be a good idea.
> 
> Leave the responsibility with the parent's and immediate family and let schools focus on the important educational subjects.



That is the way it works here in Switzerland.  RE is not taught in schools.  All religious education is the responsibility of the parents/family and is separate to school.  As a result many religions, including Catholicism, operates a "Sunday School" model here where children attend an hour of RE after mass (the very young ones attending school during mass).  Its at "Sunday School" they prepare for first holy communion, confirmation etc.

I think the Irish school approach to religion does need to change.

- The current approach doesn't seem to be working.

- It's becoming increasingly hard for teachers (who themselves don't believe) to teach it.

- Ireland is no longer a homogeneous community and rather than the one of two exceptions (as in my time) - most classes will contain more and more children practicing different disciplines.

- If religion is to be taught in school, an understanding of different religious cultures needs to be taught to help promote tolerance and understanding.


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## redstar (27 Aug 2007)

Sure, the Church of England is not a 'real' church, anyway ...


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## Caveat (27 Aug 2007)

redstar said:


> Sure, the Church of England is not a 'real' church, anyway ...


 

C'mon!!


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## GeneralZod (27 Aug 2007)

casiopea said:


> If you are a practicing Atheist/Agnostic can you get your child out of religion class?



They're not so much practicing as getting on with their lives.  

The Church of Ireland kid and his British & American friends had a lucky escape.


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## DrMoriarty (27 Aug 2007)

As a young boy, I found that rocking violently back and forth and rolling my eyes while speaking Latin backwards in a very deep voice was usually sufficient for me to be excused from class.


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## sinbadsailor (28 Aug 2007)

contemporary said:


> I couldnt believe when i heard recently that religion is now a leaving cert subject, i think that religion should be replaced as a leaving cert subject with something like drivers education, i would go as far as saying that every school child should leave secondary school with a full drivers licence



I don't think that sufficient experience under such a course could warrant a full licence. To have had time learning good driver etiqette, real world driving situations and how to react to real world incidents would warrant a provisional licence and then at the very least we know that the provisional licence holder, driving on their own have some clue as to what they are doing. Under the current system a provisional is a licence to kill or cause a serious accident.

But driver education in schools should be a very high priority, I agree. And I would go as far to say it should be part of your leaving cert and points tally etc.


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## sinbadsailor (28 Aug 2007)

Teaching is all about giving facts and information that the person being taught will take away and apply to their decision making in life.

To 'teach' only one religion in school is nothing short of brainwashing really. The students do not get all the facts, views of differing faiths etc, so how can they make informed decisions on what they believe in.

Just because religious teching is non-intrusive and is seen as OK, does not make it any different from any cult 'techings' to force people to a particular point of view.

Leave it to the parents, they are the naural teachers in this respect


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## Berlin (28 Aug 2007)

Aren't all religions cults anyway, as none of them can prove what they claim? It just seems to me that some cults are more successful than others. By all means teach children what various religions believe. Just don't teach them that any particular one is true.


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## Berlin (28 Aug 2007)

I should add that I think its also important to teach children that atheism and agnosticism are also worthy options.


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## The_Banker (28 Aug 2007)

Interesting debate and I am glad it started. I would have had a very negative experience of religious education in primary school.
I am 37 now and would have attended primary school from roughly 1974 up until 1982 or 83. It was an all boys school and while we had only lay male and female teachers it was very much catholic in ethos and outlook.
The day began at 9 AM with prayers, 12 noon we all said the angelus followed by 30 minutes religious (catholic) education. We had lunch preceded by grace before meals and followed by grace after meals. Before going home we said more prayers.
The local catholic church was near and we went there often, for various religious festivals and for training for holy communion and confirmation.
I have nothing but bad memories of primary school because of this. I remember art class when I was in senior infants (I would have been about 5 years old) and the whole class were told to draw Holy Mary being visited by some angel and being told that she will have a baby. I did my best drawing and drew a cross in the back ground. The teacher went ballistic saying that This post will be deleted if not edited immediately wouldn’t be nailed to it for another 33 years… I got her knuckles in the back of the head for that.
In communion class (first class) our teacher told us if we even thought a sin then it was an actual sin… I had nightmares for years thinking of all the ‘sins’ I had thought about and then assuming I would go to hell. The same teacher used to smoke a pipe in class and asked boys to put there finger into the flame of his lighter. Obviously no one did and we were told our whole bodies would be in flames for eternity in hell for the sinful lives we were leading so why would we not put our fingers into a flame for a few minutes to get used to it.
Every now and then a bishop (I’m not putting a capital letter for b, they don’t deserve it) would visit the school and the teacher would speak in awe and reverence about them, instructing us how to behave if we came across them in the corridors and sending letters home to our parents saying that we were to make sure uniforms were spick and span. On the one occasion a bishop walked past me I nearly wet myself in fear.
For confirmation we had to study the ‘brown catechism’, (anyone remember that) whereby questions in the book were asked about some religious tripe and were also answered in the book. These answers had to be learned off by heart for when the bishop visited to examine our religious knowledge. If you got a question wrong then there was a fear that you could not make your confirmation and the whole fear and shame that went with it.

That said, religious education in post primary was much more enlightened and progressive (by the standards I was used to). We still got visits from priests and bishops but the education side of it was lighter. Once (when I was in first year of secondary school) a bishop came into our English teachers class and offered his hand to the teacher to kiss his ring. She just shook it as normal and then when he left she turned to us and said “Did you see that f****** trying to get me to kiss his ring?” “I would punch him first!” I was in complete shock and assumed she was going to rot in hell for all eternity. 
Thankfully my mind has opened after years of propaganda and brain washing in primary school.
As I don’t have children I don’t know if primary schools are still like this but I would assume and hope not. 
I firmly believe that religion should be taught at home and not in the school place. I also find it somewhat ironic that bishops say that sexual education should be taught at home and believe religion should be taught in schools..

Anyway, I needed to get that off my chest!!!


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## casiopea (28 Aug 2007)

That is absolutely horrific The_Banker, words fail me.  I am so sorry that happened to you.  Its all terrible but the bit about the lighter is especially disturbing.  It is experiences like this that make me feel that religion should be taught in a Sunday School model (like the swiss system I described above).  It also gives the parents an opportunity to keep a closer eye on whats happening, decreasing the chance of abuse.  Im sure your parents would have been horrified at the way you were treated and would have wanted to step in? As a young child you implicitly trust the adults in whose care you're left and don't know that what they are doing is an abuse.


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## capall (28 Aug 2007)

*Re: The Banker*

That reads like a John McGahern short story !

I guess you were unlucky with the teachers in that school rather than the religion.

I laughed at your story about the cross,sorry.

I remember at that age having to make something for class and I made a pram using a cheese box and half  a cheese box for the hood and 2 spool threads for the wheels,it looked great.    
Next day the teacher held it up to the class and said ,look at the steam roller. It still rankles,that remark!


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## pat127 (28 Aug 2007)

casiopea said:


> In the spirit of debating Religion (respectfully) I was wondering how people feel about Religion continued to being taught in Schools?  There have been many debates about Irish coming off the syllabus I assume people feel similarly about Religion.
> 
> Do all schools in Ireland still have to teach religion?
> If you are a practicing Atheist/Agnostic can you get your child out of religion class?  Or are you still interested in them attending religion (so they appreciate what you don't believe in)?



I'm not expressing any personal views here, merely providing information and some associated thoughts.....


Taken from the Citizens Information database:-

"Religion in Irish schools

Most Irish primary schools are under the management of one denomination or another and the majority of these are Roman Catholic. There is, however, a growing choice of schools of other denominations and of multi-denominational schools. 

Schools that cater for a single religion may give priority to children of that religion but they will also admit children with other religious beliefs, or none. Children do not have to attend religion classes and you may choose to withdraw your child from such classes if you wish."

All well and good, but there is a practical dimension to all this. The teaching of religion is not a discrete activity other than during the official 30 minutes given to the subject every day, particularly for children who are getting ready for First Communion. It permeates the atmosphere and it's an integral part of the school-day. There are visits to churches for example and dry-runs of the ceremonies, the teaching of prayers etc etc. Schools are not necessarily geared-up (nor is there any obligation on them) to supervise children who are 'opted out', whether in the classroom itself or in a separate room. There is also the fact that small children don't like to be made to feel different. My wife would say that taking these issues into consideration in the school where she works, few if any children are ever opted out. Parents would probably have to take responsibility for the child's supervision during the religion period itself and I don't know what solution there would be for all other situations. The same is true in the C of I school where my neighbour works. If you don't want your child to be taught religion then the better option I think would be to send him or her to a non-denominational school, admittedly hard to find in certain areas. 

To determine how people in general feels about the ongoing teaching of religion would require a major poll I believe. I suspect that the results might be somewhat interesting. Despite the falloff in attendance at church services, people, even if they themselves are not regular church-goers, want their children to have First Communion and Confirmation. Marriages are still commonly performed in churches and churches tend to be considerably fuller than usual at times such as Christmas and Easter. That suggests to me that people may still want their children taught religion.

You may take it to be a fact also that if the majority of schools are Catholic, which actually means that the Parish Priest is on the Board of Management as are parishioners appointed by the Bishop, there would be considerable opposition to dropping the teaching of religion so expect any change in the situation to happen very slowly.


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## Remix (29 Aug 2007)

*Re: The Banker*



capall said:


> That reads like a John McGahern short story !
> 
> I guess you were unlucky with the teachers in that school rather than the religion.
> 
> I laughed at your story about the cross,sorry.


 

When I was very young I had very bad experiences with dentists. 
Won't go into all the details but they were giving kids fairly deep fillings without any anaesthetic. 

Needless to say I developed a hatred for dentists and rejected dentistry.

It was when I moved to the US and heard other peoples experiences I realised it was more of an Irish problem back then not a problem with
dentists and dentistry in general.

Thank St Peter's-white-gates-to-heaven for the genius of American Dentistry as I've got me faith in dentistry restored and against all odds a reasonable set of (me own) pearly whites


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## capall (29 Aug 2007)

When I was in national school a dentist used to come around to the school in a caravan .

Kids were dragged into the caravan kicking and screaming and a while later would emerge ,clutching their jaw,blood dripping.

I never visited the caravan ,I think I was too young. But my brother did and my parents afterwards  had to bring him to a private dentist to rectify whatever the caravan dentist did

I kid you not


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## SarahMc (30 Aug 2007)

The Banker, thank you for sharing that, sadly I think thats a fairly normal experience for people of our age.  

With all the horror that has been exposed about our industrial schools and s**ual abuse by religious orders, the stories that have not been told are about the normal day to day schooling in religious primary schools in the 70s, the rulers across knuckes, the bullying of children living in poverty / who were slow / who were left handed.


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## CharlieC (31 Aug 2007)

I have fond memories of my Catholic education in the 80s.
Altar boy duty, the buzz in the parish preparing for Easter.
Cash in hand for weddings, funerals and the big one Ordinations

Missionary priests attending the school with exciting stories of Africa etc


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## SarahMc (1 Sep 2007)

Corporal punishment in schools was outlawed in 1982, so I think there is a big difference between schooling in the 70s and the 80s.


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## Purple (2 Sep 2007)

DrMoriarty said:


> As a young boy, I found that rocking violently back and forth and rolling my eyes while speaking Latin backwards in a very deep voice was usually sufficient for me to be excused from class.



Up to your usual high standard LOL


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## Bronte (3 Sep 2007)

And let's not forget tarot cards and horoscopes


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## GeneralZod (3 Sep 2007)

SarahMc said:


> Corporal punishment in schools was outlawed in 1982



The principal of my school must have missed that memo.


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## Purple (3 Sep 2007)

Bronte said:


> And let's not forget tarot cards and horoscopes



We never did that in school!


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## room305 (4 Sep 2007)

SarahMc said:


> Corporal punishment in schools was outlawed in 1982, so I think there is a big difference between schooling in the 70s and the 80s.



I was in primary school post-1982 and I remember corporal punishment being administered. Don't think it was officially sanctioned by the school, it was just some of the older nuns who didn't want to change a habit of a lifetime excuse the pun.

I do remember the school backing the teachers when parents complained even after one kid ended up in hospital!


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## seriams (5 Sep 2007)

I was waiting for this to show up on AAM.


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## Purple (5 Sep 2007)

seriams said:


> I was waiting for this to show up on AAM.



Why?


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## Haille (18 Sep 2007)

Just wondered if non muslims can attend muslim school in Dublin and are they excused from religion classes.Similiarly with jewish schools can non jewish children attend and be excused from religion class.


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## shanegl (18 Sep 2007)

room305 said:


> I was in primary school post-1982 and I remember corporal punishment being administered. Don't think it was officially sanctioned by the school, it was just some of the older nuns who didn't want to change a habit of a lifetime excuse the pun.
> 
> I do remember the school backing the teachers when parents complained even after one kid ended up in hospital!


 
I agree. Corporal punishment went on in my school till around 1990.


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## Thirsty (18 Sep 2007)

> Just wondered if non muslims can attend muslim school in Dublin and are they excused from religion classes.Similiarly with jewish schools can non jewish children attend and be excused from religion class.


Yes, provided there are places available.  This is the case with COI schools; though I only know of 2 parents (both atheist families) who removed their children from the religion lessons.


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## nelly (19 Sep 2007)

Anyone hear St. Stansiclaus on radio one yesterday, she is asking the department of education to take their role seriously in providing schools and the religion orders to understand they are not there to provide education adn should row back from school issues from now on. 
She was a great balance to the argument I though. 

I would like to remind you all that double standards have existed here before Jewish or Muslim schools were set up here - Church of Ireland school now can and do refuse children an education based on their religon and they can also refuse teachers based on their religious background and training. I am amazed how the points for teaching for COI primary teaching course and Catholic ones are allowed to be different, to me that is discrimiation based on religion?


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## Caveat (19 Sep 2007)

nelly said:


> Church of Ireland school now can and do refuse children an education based on their religon and they can also refuse teachers based on their religious background and training.


 
Are you sure about this?

Is it not just that preference is given to COI members (which is fair enough as far as I'm concerned)


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## nelly (19 Sep 2007)

A guy i work with was told by a principal of a CoI that he was third on a list, 
CoI,
other protestant faiths, 
Catholic and other...
nothing about catchment area, special needs etc just based on religion - to me this is a racist entrance criteria
the principal then said "why is it that you want to come here, won't your own take him"?

It is amazing that CoI schools close their doors when classes are maxed out based on grounds of religion but we hear regularly of classes with 30+children in catholic run schools and if they refuse due to space grounds there are ructions - it seems a bit unfair thats all i am saying.


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## gonk (19 Sep 2007)

nelly said:


> A guy i work with was told by a principal of a CoI that he was third on a list,
> CoI,
> other protestant faiths,
> Catholic and other...
> ...


 
This is not unique to CoI schools, Catholic schools can and do apply the same entry criteria, i.e., Catholics will get preference over others of different religions and none.

As for the points to get into teacher training, this is driven purely by the numbers of applicants - if fewer students apply for the CoI colleges, their CAO points will be lower.


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## Caveat (19 Sep 2007)

gonk said:


> This is not unique to CoI schools, Catholic schools can and do apply the same entry criteria, i.e., Catholics will get preference over others of different religions and none.
> 
> As for the points to get into teacher training, this is driven purely by the numbers of applicants - if fewer students apply for the CoI colleges, their CAO points will be lower.


 
Mmmm...more or less what I thought.

Are you sure _you_ don't have an agenda Nelly?  

It looks to me that generally, catholic establishments/organisations are worse than most in pushing their own agenda, exerting influence etc.


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## nelly (19 Sep 2007)

Why would i have an agenda, well I don't? My point is people have been told "the school is full / we are applying for a new teacher, talk to you next yeart and we don't have to cater for you because of our religions ethos" for years - its not new and to suggest that Muslim or other religions may be introducing it is wide of the mark. 
The teacher training is due to points but I don't think it is that simple. the interview panels for all schools with a religions backing are made up of religious - would someone be hired with a CoI B. Ed if they were being tasked with teaching a Catholic school communion class? 

For the record I don't have children and if i did i would send them to the local Gaelscoil as it seems to get good results.


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## Caveat (19 Sep 2007)

nelly said:


> would someone be hired with a CoI B. Ed if they were being tasked with teaching a Catholic school communion class?


 
I don't know about that but when I was growing up, COI teachers were not permitted to teach in catholic schools.  Catholic teachers did however teach in nominally COI schools - including my own.


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## nelly (19 Sep 2007)

there is one CoI teacher training course versus around 8 Catholic so i am not surprised at that occurring based on suply and demand.


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## Caveat (19 Sep 2007)

nelly said:


> there is one CoI teacher training course versus around 8 Catholic so i am not surprised at that occurring based on suply and demand.


 
But what's that got to do with COI teachers *not being permitted* to teach in catholic schools?

It wasn't "Ah you're OK, we have enough - we don't need you", It was "You are not allowed to teach here"


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## gonk (19 Sep 2007)

nelly said:


> Why would i have an agenda, well I don't? My point is people have been told "the school is full / we are applying for a new teacher, talk to you next yeart and we don't have to cater for you because of our religions ethos" for years - its not new and to suggest that Muslim or other religions may be introducing it is wide of the mark.


 
It is not wide of the mark to suggest that similar policies are applied by Catholic schools. This is precisely the reason that a new school very controversially has had to be opened in Balbriggan to cater for the black children of immigrants who could not gain entry to local Catholic schools.

http://www.independent.ie/education/latest-news/catholic--schools-enrolment-policy-may-be-illegal-1077693.html


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## nelly (19 Sep 2007)

Caveat said:


> But what's that got to do with COI teachers *not being permitted* to teach in catholic schools?
> 
> It wasn't "Ah you're OK, we have enough - we don't need you", It was "You are not allowed to teach here"



And its possible there is the same rule for CoI except they say " Oh well we can't do without you - so we will hire you - based on supply and demand" ?

I am not a teacher and I cannot say such rules exist to this day- so maybe if there is a teacher they can confirm if there is or is not. 
Seriously I don't want to get into a tit for tat on this, Caveat - have you an agend perhaps?


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## Caveat (19 Sep 2007)

nelly said:


> And its possible there is the same rule for CoI except they say " Oh well we can't do without you - so we will hire you - based on supply and demand" ?


 
No, AFAIK there was not the same rule. My point was that even with the supply and demand you mention, in the unlikely but possible scenario that a catholic school needed the skills of a COI teacher, they could not and would not employ them.



nelly said:


> Seriously I don't want to get into a tit for tat on this, Caveat - have you an agend perhaps?


 
Nor do I wish to get into a tit for tat.  The only reason I (jokingly) suggested you may have an agenda is that you seem unwilling to accept that catholic schools apply similar selection policies, for similar reasons - reasons that you seem to think are unacceptable in other cases.

And no, I do not have an agenda.


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## nelly (19 Sep 2007)

Caveat said:


> The only reason I (jokingly) suggested you may have an agenda is that you seem unwilling to accept that catholic schools apply similar selection policies, for similar reasons - reasons that you seem to think are unacceptable in other cases.
> 
> And no, I do not have an agenda.



I do know that catholic schools have a selection process but because they are the only show in most towns down through the years they acepted pretty much all applicants and that meant that classes of 30+ were becoming common in the 80s and 90's. The rule was there but I dont believe was exercised in most cases certainly in my school. 

for the record i do not believe any school obtaining money from the state, or teachers salaries for that matter should have a selection process based on religion. I think the fairest is first in gets the place no matter who you are or what your parents believe.


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## Caveat (20 Sep 2007)

nelly said:


> I do know that catholic schools have a selection process but because they are the only show in most towns down through the years they acepted pretty much all applicants


 
I have known of many COI kids living in pretty remote areas throughout the years - every single one managed to be accommodated in a reasonably local COI school.  The situation you describe sounds unusual and unlikely to me - that a COI kid would have no option but to attend a catholic school - are you saying the swelling class numbers you mention are due to COI kids with nowhere else to go? I find this very hard to believe.




nelly said:


> I think the fairest is first in gets the place no matter who you are or what your parents believe.


 
This is obviously ripe for abuse & would almost certainly cause tension.

Imagine the situation if a recently arrived muslim kid got into the school that little Seán lived beside, and whose parents and grandparents went to - simply because they 'got there first'.  

What do local catholic families do? Pay backhanders to get the names of unborn children on 'the list' ?

It makes perfect sense, for all concerned, for schools of a certain religious ethos to cater first and foremost to those children.  If not, why have this type of school in the first place?


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## Caveat (20 Sep 2007)

..


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