# Over night allowance civil service



## Turbo Tommy (16 Sep 2016)

Hi, I am a new entrant in the civil service based in kilkenny. I have been notified that i must attend 8 weeks training in Dublin for 3 days a week. My department has booked a B+B for the nights of the course. This includes accommodation and breakfast only. I have been told that I can't claim overnight expenses as they are providing accommodation. I was notified that i can claim mileage for one return journey per week (so can't travel home daily) and should use public transport where possible. The course runs from 9.30 to 4.30 daily. I'm wondering if one can typically claim for lunch and dinner in the civil service when overnight accommodation is provided. If so, how would this typically be done?


----------



## Dan Murray (16 Sep 2016)

Turbo Tommy said:


> Hi, I am a new entrant in the civil service based in kilkenny......I have been told that I can't claim overnight expenses as they are providing accommodation....... I'm wondering if one can typically claim for lunch and dinner in the civil service when overnight accommodation is provided.



That's the spirit!


----------



## Learner2015 (16 Sep 2016)

Turbo, normally in your situation you would just get the overnight allowance (€125 per night I think) and this amount should be used to cover your accommodation and subsistence (meals). In your case your are being provided with accommodation and so you should be entitled to the 10 hour subsistence rate of €33.61 per day to cover your meals. They are correct re the one return journey per week as you are staying over night.

If I was you I would go back to them and tell them you want the flat overnight rate of €125 and book your own accommodation and you will still be able to claim the mileage for one return trip a week. If I recall the rules say to qualify for the overnight flat rate you have to be travelling to somewhere more than 100km from your home or from your base office location whichever is nearer which you are.


----------



## Turbo Tommy (16 Sep 2016)

Thanks learner 2015 for your help. 

I am not allowed to book the accommodation myself. The course runs from 9:30 to 4:30 so I was told that I cannot claim the 10hr allowance. 

I just find the situation unfair in so much that I am away from home and will be out of pocket for meals and my salary is very small.

What are the rules regarding the 10hr allowance? If I kept meal receipts would it be acceptable to submit these?

Thanks


----------



## Ihana (16 Sep 2016)

It does seem unfair.  You should receive some sort of daily allowance to cover meals IF they are not provided.  I think there is a five hour allowance also?


----------



## Learner2015 (16 Sep 2016)

As Ihana said there is a 5 hour allowance which is €14.01. To qualify for this and the 10 hour you need to more than 8km away, which you will be.

I don't agree with their interpretation for the 10hr. It is based on how many hours you are away from home - in your case you are 24 hours away each day hence you should qualify for the 10 hour.


----------



## vandriver (16 Sep 2016)

The 5 hour rate is 14 euros,surely they can't deny you that?


----------



## Turbo Tommy (16 Sep 2016)

Thanks again for the help.

The only issue with the subsistence is that it is an online system that you must enter the date and start + finish times of the course and it is calculated automatically.

So I think I will be able to get the 5 hr allowance. The only thing is that 14.01 will bearly cover lunch and dinner! Maybe McDonald's!


----------



## Learner2015 (16 Sep 2016)

Turbo, I know you are new and don't want to rock the boat etc but at the end of the day whoever is telling you 5 hour only is wrong. 5 hours is based on an employee only having to get one meal, you have to get 2, lunch and dinner. As I said these allowances are calculated on your time away from home, not the length of the course.

Re the system as your line manager what times you can put in as you are entitled to the 10 hour.


----------



## dereko1969 (16 Sep 2016)

Does seem odd. Are you sure that you're not going to be provided with lunch at the course?


----------



## T McGibney (16 Sep 2016)

Govt depts are running scared of Revenue's obtuse and often downright unfair rules on tax-free expenses for employee travel costs. Here's a blog post I wrote last year on it. https://mcgibney.ie/2015/06/29/revenues-two-fingers-to-road-safety-puts-lives-at-risk/


----------



## vandriver (16 Sep 2016)

The 10 hour rate relates to time away from home.
Google circular 11/82


----------



## Learner2015 (16 Sep 2016)

Hard when you are only in the door Turbo but you really should push for what you are entitled too - are any of the other new employees unhappy with the situation, did you join the union?


----------



## Turbo Tommy (16 Sep 2016)

Thanks for all the advice. I posted the question because I felt it has to be wrong that i couldn't claim a 10hr allowance.

I didn't join the union but enquired about joining and asked the union rep in the office. He checked it out and said that 5hr allowance would be the norm when they are providing accommodation and the course is only 6 hours a day.

Im not happy to join that union to be honest.

I think i will have to ask my line manager about the 10hr allowance and insist that they have the wrong interpretation.

Does anyone know Who can you go to if I wanted someone independent to confirm if you are entitled to the 10hr or not?

Worst case I can get the 5hr and it's not the end of the world.


----------



## Learner2015 (16 Sep 2016)

The circular Van Driver references 11/82 at part 18 states "Subject to paragraph 17, a day allowance will be paid in respect of absence from

*home or headquarters* of 5 hours or more".

This should be enough to confirm with whoever you have to, you are more than 10 hours away from home or headquarters so that's your one.


----------



## Ravima (20 Sep 2016)

Meanwhile, those in the Private Sector travel at own expense in own time for training courses and in some cases simply to work.


----------



## Learner2015 (21 Sep 2016)

Ravima, I disagree. 

I worked in the private sector for years and on numerous occasions was sent around the country to attend training etc. not once did I ever have to put my hand in my pocket to cover expenses and I always got time in lieu for any travelling time otherwise I wouldn't have attended the course, I'm sure I'm not the only one that had / has it this way.

I have many colleagues that have a long commute to work each day, in some cases 2 to 3 hours each way at their own cost but they choose to do this otherwise they would get a job closer to home. My colleagues and I are civil servants.


----------



## Ravima (21 Sep 2016)

_Ravima, I disagree. 

I worked in the private sector for years and on numerous occasions was sent around the country to attend training etc. not once did I ever have to put my hand in my pocket to cover expenses and I always got time in lieu for any travelling time otherwise I wouldn't have attended the course, I'm sure I'm not the only one that had / has it this way.
_
Indeed, but you were not looking for EXTRA on top! Private sector people have to do training etc; employer pays and puts them up in accommodation with food etc, but NO private sector employer would then tell them , Oh ya, I forgot to tell ya, ya can also claim extra for being away from home and 'cos you're away from home for 3 nights, you can claim mileage from me for the three nights back home to see the folks, then back to the paid accommodation.


----------



## vandriver (21 Sep 2016)

Ravima said:


> _Ravima, I disagree.
> 
> I worked in the private sector for years and on numerous occasions was sent around the country to attend training etc. not once did I ever have to put my hand in my pocket to cover expenses and I always got time in lieu for any travelling time otherwise I wouldn't have attended the course, I'm sure I'm not the only one that had / has it this way.
> _
> Indeed, but you were not looking for EXTRA on top! Private sector people have to do training etc; employer pays and puts them up in accommodation with food etc, but NO private sector employer would then tell them , Oh ya, I forgot to tell ya, ya can also claim extra for being away from home and 'cos you're away from home for 3 nights, you can claim mileage from me for the three nights back home to see the folks, then back to the paid accommodation.


An evening meal is not being provided,mileage is not being paid every day,just there and back.It is not even clear that lunch is being provided.
The allowance to be paid for lunch and dinner is €33 .It's hardly a king's ransom now is it?Why the hostility?


----------



## Ravima (21 Sep 2016)

I must buy my own lunch and dinner as do most private sector employees. There is no hostility, but it galls me to see the sense of entitlement in some of the Public sector employees, when we in the private sector are struggling to exist


----------



## Andy836 (21 Sep 2016)

While the public sector has plenty of waste in it, if a member of staff is on training then their costs should be covered.


----------



## Setanta12 (21 Sep 2016)

EUR14 would cover my lunch almost the entire week!  

Subsistence is the act of maintaining or supporting oneself, especially at a minimal level.


----------



## Jon Stark (21 Sep 2016)

Ravima said:


> I must buy my own lunch and dinner as do most private sector employees. There is no hostility, but it galls me to see the sense of entitlement in some of the Public sector employees, when we in the private sector are struggling to exist



Are you saying that in general you have to buy your own lunch and dinner, or specifically when sent away from your normal place of work for training or meetings? 

My experience of the private sector is that employers of any substantial size (hitch is the only suitable comparison to Govt departments) generally operate the same or a substantially similar system of reimbursement to the civil service rules. The fact that the OP is a civil servant is a total red herring, except insofar as it clarifies what rules & regs his employer is supposed to be operating by.

In principle, if you have a normal place of work, and your employer obliges you to be somewhere else (regardless of public or private sector), it is entirely right and proper that you are not out of pocket as a result of that obligation.

In this instance, the employer are providing B&B accommodation, but the OP isn't in the position (as he would be at home) to do his normal thing in terms of lunch & dinner, so there is an additional imposition and cost on him, and the €33.61 reflects that. I think the rules were drawn up generations ago when the typical officer would be a family man with a wife and kids at home, so the household still costs the same to run whether you're there or not - the allowance was intended to cover the incremental costs.

Any private sector employer not operating some variant on the civil service scheme, and leaving their employees out of pocket, is quite frankly stingy and exploiting their workforce, but that shouldn't mean best practice should regress to their level.


----------



## Learner2015 (21 Sep 2016)

So as not to go off topic I think the point here is that the OP does not have a sense of entitlement it is really about him getting what he is actually entitled too.

As vandriver said its not clear if food is being provided, it should be as when you are away from home you have no facilities to make your own food at a fraction of the cost of eating out, also OP is not looking for extra mileage, just the return trip once so no issue there.

There are plenty of people in the private and public sector who abuse T&S, the OP certainly dos not appear to be one of these!


----------



## vandriver (21 Sep 2016)

Ravima said:


> I must buy my own lunch and dinner as do most private sector employees. There is no hostility, but it galls me to see the sense of entitlement in some of the Public sector employees, when we in the private sector are struggling to exist


You are now deliberately misreprenting the situation.You have already conceded that a private sector employee away from home would get lunch and dinner provided.The OP has stated that neither are provided with his arranged accommodation .What sense of entitlement is there in not being out of pocket for unavoidable expenses?


----------



## Setanta12 (21 Sep 2016)

In my organisation as the rules are vague and contradictory in places, I opted for full-receipted reimbursement.

To note - one method of reimbursement is allowed only per the Rules; either full-receipted or per-diem rates.   In this case we see an example - the hotel is paid for (full-receipted) and the guy is getting  - I think? - a per-diem for subsistence?


----------



## vandriver (21 Sep 2016)

Setanta12 said:


> EUR14 would cover my lunch almost the entire week!
> 
> Subsistence is the act of maintaining or supporting oneself, especially at a minimal level.


In a hotel?


----------



## Setanta12 (21 Sep 2016)

You don't have to eat in a hotel to survive!  Slightly off-topic, one should review the subsistence rates for foreign travel - dependent on which city (not country) accommodation is required.  So .. so .. low, better go 'receipted' than the city-by-city different per-diem rates.


----------



## Jon Stark (21 Sep 2016)

Setanta12 said:


> In my organisation as the rules are vague and contradictory in places, I opted for full-receipted reimbursement.
> 
> To note - one method of reimbursement is allowed only per the Rules; either full-receipted or per-diem rates.   In this case we see an example - the hotel is paid for (full-receipted) and the guy is getting  - I think? - a per-diem for subsistence?



Not quite, the accommodation is being provided to him, booked and paid for by the employer.


----------



## Andy836 (22 Sep 2016)

Setanta12 said:


> You don't have to eat in a hotel to survive!  Slightly off-topic, one should review the subsistence rates for foreign travel - dependent on which city (not country) accommodation is required.  So .. so .. low, better go 'receipted' than the city-by-city different per-diem rates.



I think it would be perfectly reasonable for meals in the hotel to be covered. If he was at home he'd eat at home, not the deli down the road just cause it's €5 cheaper.


----------



## Purple (27 Sep 2016)

No employee should be out of pocket because he or she is travelling for their employer. If anything they should get paid extra for having to spend time away from home.


----------

