# SERIOUS issue with tenant



## Alana55 (25 Sep 2012)

Hello everyone,
My sister (who is pregnant and beyond stressed at this point) has a nightmare tenant that I need some advice on. 

Her tentant is a single mum with one child who reduced her rent twice of her own accord (breaking the terms of the lease). This crucified my sister and her family as they had to pay rent and a mortgage (they only moved as the commute to work was too long). They have always been very good to this tenant and even agreed to the reduced rent because it was better than nothing. Then she decides to start skipping weeks and not paying at all.

They went through the proper procedure and issued a notice to vacate. Lease was up and tenant said she wouldn’t move without her deposit. She owed nearly 3 times the value of the deposit in rent so they refused (they didn’t have the money in any case). She brought them in front of the PTRB for holding onto her deposit they fought back with a claim of over-holding in the property and rent arrears. 

My sister won the case and the tenant was ordered to pay ‘x’ amount of rent arrears. They know they haven’t a hope of getting any money from her but just want her out. 

The tenant has now decided she wants to appeal and hasn’t paid a cent in rent for weeks – she owes them close on €2k at the moment and its killing them financially – they have a young family of their own. She is getting a cheque from social welfare of more than two thirds of her rent every week and is just holding onto it for herself. My sister has informed the social welfare officer that she is not paying her rent and they say they can’t chase everyone – lack of resources etc…

They have had no choice but to engage a solicitor – but he is talking about issuing letters and they know she won’t pay any heed.

Their savings are gone trying to fund the situation and it seems they can’t do anything.

ANY advice at all would be much appreciated!


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## oldnick (25 Sep 2012)

If you want to go down the nice civilised legal route then you will wait for many months and won't get a single penny.
Solicitors are a complete waste of time and money.

I cannot advise on this website other means of persuading her to leave.....


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## becky (25 Sep 2012)

CWO's were transferred to the Dept of Social Welfare earlier this year or last year.


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## Kkma (25 Sep 2012)

Years ago (90s) my mother had a tenant who didn't pay and the community welfare officer issued cheques directly to my mother. Not sure if this arrangement is still possible. She never received the tenant's share of the rent but at least it was something. I'm wondering if your sister has access to the property and can carry out repairs and maintenance?


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## AlbacoreA (26 Sep 2012)

This story doesn't make much sense to me. The HSE pays this not the Welfare, and they just cut the payment if the LL reports they aren't getting it. As its fraud. Not only that but that would effect their dole payment also. I don't see how you can get a PRTB judgement that fast, or how they can be many times the deposit in arrears in weeks not months. Unless this story has been going over months. 

The law does not protect the LL from big loss's in cases like this, as it can't act quickly enough. Anything the LL does to get the tenant out risks a hefty fine. So the risk of the fine has to balanced against the LL loss's if they don't act.


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## Bronte (26 Sep 2012)

Your sister made a mistake when she didn't give the deposit back. She can still do this to get her out. Tell her about 5 days after dole day (when the funds are low for this lady) that if she packs her bags she will get x amount in cash. Make her sign a document stating that she has left the property on this day. Film her packed bags, her leaving the property and the empty cupboards. Then change the locks and stay in the property for a week at least.

I too can only hint at the other option which so far I've never had to comtemplate, but I do know that in law as a landlord with a tenant overholding it is me that will be out of pocket while a tenant decides to stay for a year or two paying no rent, and me as a landlord is not going to waste my time with the PRTB or heaven forbid more costs by going to court. 

Personally when one weights up the cost of 2 years of zero rent, stress, the tenant lording over one, the tenant no doubt leaving the place in a tip versus doing the wrong thing and getting a massive fine by the PRTB, well do the sums.

I suggest your sister contact the Irish property owners association. IPOA.

And the reaction of those who pay rent allowance, send them a letter by registered post, and I most certainly would recount what had been said on the telephone. You need to stop this lady getting rent allowance, that will soften her cough. You got to learn to play the system as she is an expert.  It is quite clear from this tenant's actions that she will move on to the next landlord and do exactly the same thing.


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## gipimann (26 Sep 2012)

HSE do not pay Rent Supplement.

Rent Supplement is a scheme operated by the Dept of Social Protection (Social Welfare as its commonly known), and while it was administered by HSE staff in the past (the Community Welfare Officers), those staff are now Department staff as was mentioned in an earlier post.

The SWA officer may still operate from a HSE health centre, but this is changing as they transfer to Department offices.


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## delgirl (26 Sep 2012)

I had a similar problem tenant recently and called the Community Welfare Officer and he immediately diverted the rent supplement payment to my bank account. If your sister can't get any joy on the phone, she should try to make an appointment with the CWO or send a registered letter immediately as Bronte suggests. I backed up my telephone conversation with the CWO with an immediate email with copy of the lease, etc.

Once she gets the rent supplement transferred directly to her, she can try Bronte's suggestion with the offer of cash to entice her to move. I also did this with my recent troublesome tenant and it worked as he needed the cash, but I only handed it to him when he was outside the house and had given back the keys. I also asked the Gardai to accompany me, they sent a marked car with 2 Guards, as I was 'in fear of a breach of the peace' and for 'my own personal safety' when the tenant was leaving the property.

As your sister already has a judgement from the PRTB, I would also contact them and request that the appeal be heard as a matter of urgency due to severe financial hardship etc., just in case the offer of cash doesn't work. I think the Director of the PRTB is Anne Marie Caulfield and I would address a registered letter to her.

The law is a joke when it comes to evicting non-paying tenants from private rental property. I had to wait 6 months for a non-paying tenant to move out and when they finally left, they wrecked the house, destroyed the furniture and left tons of rubbish behind including black bags full of household waste in the attic! Needless to say, they walked away scot free and couldn't be traced.


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## Alana55 (26 Sep 2012)

Thanks very much for the advice. Because there is a child involved they don't want to do anything that's not by the book. 
I advised my sister at the time to just give the cash to her and just get rid but they couldn't see past this woman owing them hundreds and just giving her more money was ludicrous. They have never been landlords before but are learning fast that they are not the experts. 
AlbacoreA - this has been going on for months. I too can not understand why the social welfare officer hasn't cut off the rent allowance cheque. What normally happens is they ring him - he rings her - they get paid half a week and then nothing for weeks until they call again. Even if they got the cheque paid directly (which they have requested) it would be something - but its not taken seriously. I wonder could they claim some money back from the social welfare for all these 'misappropriated funds'? 
Bronte I never heard of the IPOA - what do they do?


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## shesells (26 Sep 2012)

Alana55 said:


> I wonder could they claim some money back from the social welfare for all these 'misappropriated funds'?



So the taxpayer should pay twice


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## AlbacoreA (27 Sep 2012)

So much conflicting stories. The Community Welfare Officer said to us they wouldn't deal with the LL due to data protection, but did get all payments stopped. They wouldn't send payments to the LL directly with out the tenant signing permission for this. 

But this all seems to vary from region to region and perhaps office to office. Personally I wouldn't rely on phone calls, letters have more effect because they can't deny them especially if you can name some of the officers you've dealt with in your letters.


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## delgirl (27 Sep 2012)

shesells said:


> So the taxpayer should pay twice


There's absolutely no chance of this happening as the rent supplement has already been paid to the tenant.  I lost out on 3 week's rent as the tenant kept telling me his rent supplement hadn't come through yet.  When I contacted the CWO, I was told that it had been paid to him from day 1.


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## Alana55 (27 Sep 2012)

shesells said:


> So the taxpayer should pay twice


 
I was thinking perhaps they could reduce her social welfare payment slightly as was previously mentioned. At the moment the taxpayer paying for this mess is my sister and her husband.....

The latest from the CWO is the tenant needs to agree for the payment to be made directly to the LL - which is highly unlikely! 

Solicitor letter going to the CWO (small town only 1 involved) and the tenant this week. Not sure if it will make any difference 

Thanks for taking the time to post!


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## AlbacoreA (27 Sep 2012)

My experience was the CWO's really had no interest in either facilitating the LL or indeed looking after the tenant. Basically had to sort it out ourselves. Their dis-interest is one of the main reasons I wouldn't be interested in tenant on RA in the future. If they don't care about it, I don't see why I should be interested in it either. 

In reality a LL has no dealings with the CWO or the RA scheme. The tenant pays deposit and rent in advance. If they are late they get termination notice. Any delays in payment from the scheme are not the LL problem. The tenant still pays on time. 

Anything else means the LL is providing a loan to the Govt and tenant for housing. Which means increased risk of financial loss, and all the risk is on the LL side. Which is no way to run a business. There isn't enough money in it to risk that. A couple of months of no rent a bit of damage and you'd have been better off leaving your money in a bank. Assuming of course it doesn't push the LL over a financial cliff. 

Its a business. Run it like one.


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## AlbacoreA (27 Sep 2012)

A Solicitor letter is meaningless. All disputes got to the PRTB which take ages. The solicitor and the tenant and the CWO know this. They'll ignore a Solicitors letter. Going to a solicitor (at this point) is just a waste of money. A Solicitor is only too happy to take money off you, though. All legal options just put more money in the solicitor pocket. Thats their business. So just be aware of that when you go that route. They have a vested interest in the legal route. 

The PRTB was designed to reduce these costs. Its just too slow.


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## Alana55 (3 Oct 2012)

Hello again,

Just thought I would post an update. Solicitors letter went to the CWO - tenant rings today saying her RA has been cut off and she certainly won't be leaving the house now and was extremely abusive on the phone. 

My sister rang me in tears, she reckons they have no option but to pay her off (if that even works at this stage) but its their savings for Xmas that they will have to use .

Are there any other options besides hiring a hit man?


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## AlbacoreA (3 Oct 2012)

I assume they would cut off the RA and the another DSP payments. In my experience the tenant may move to another area to get this turned back on. Also be aware they may transfer any services like ESB, GAS back to the LL and continue to use it, leaving the LL with a bill.  You might want to flag this to the companies involved. 

Unfortunately I think the tenant knows what they are doing and stringing the LL along.


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## delgirl (3 Oct 2012)

Alana55 said:


> Solicitors letter went to the CWO - tenant rings today saying her RA has been cut off and she certainly won't be leaving the house now and was extremely abusive on the phone.


What a terrible situation, I went through something similar in February this year but without the involvement of the PRTB and was perhaps very lucky to have a helpful CWO who transferred the RA directly to me.

Did your sister contact the CWO to ask if the RA will now be trasferred to her instead of the tenant as this person is still occupying the property? 

She should also send the CWO a copy of the PRTB judgement against the tenant to prove that she is in breach of her tenancy agreement.

Has she contacted the PRTB to inform them that the situation has now escalated?  It is the PRTB’s policy to prioritise cases where tenants are not complying with valid notices of termination and are in significant rent arrears. Assuming she is successful at the PRTB adjudication hearing, the PRTB will issue a binding Determination Order. If the tenant does not comply with it, she should contact the PRTB and request that they enforce the Determination Order.


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## oldnick (3 Oct 2012)

Your sister should

- pay the blackmailer and end the saga.

OR 
-refuse and suffer further loss and stress whilst the tenant stays in situ for ages.
OR
-  take the risk of getting someone to put the tenant's  stuff outside and change the locks when the tenant is out.  

The first option would be the obvious one for your sister who is pregnant and obviously in a distressed state.

Is it rude of me to ask why don't you go round and give the nasty person the deposit back and get her out ?


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## Kkma (3 Oct 2012)

oldnick said:


> Your sister should
> 
> 
> OR
> -  take the risk of getting someone to put the tenant's  stuff outside and change the locks when the tenant is out.


Just wondering what are the consequences of something like this? Legally I mean. TBH in this situation I feel it's sound advice.


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## Alana55 (3 Oct 2012)

delgirl said:


> Did your sister contact the CWO to ask if the RA will now be trasferred to her instead of the tenant as this person is still occupying the property?
> 
> She should also send the CWO a copy of the PRTB judgement against the tenant to prove that she is in breach of her tenancy agreement.
> 
> Has she contacted the PRTB to inform them that the situation has now escalated? It is the PRTB’s policy to prioritise cases where tenants are not complying with valid notices of termination and are in significant rent arrears. Assuming she is successful at the PRTB adjudication hearing, the PRTB will issue a binding Determination Order. If the tenant does not comply with it, she should contact the PRTB and request that they enforce the Determination Order.


 
Delgirl thanks for the sound advice - I will certainly urge her now to contact the CWO to see if they can transfer the RA to them directly, at least it will be something!

At the same time a solicitors letter went to the CWO one went to the PRTB to inform them of the situation but no response as yet....

I would only love to go round and give this woman money to get her out of their lives once and for all and have offered the cash to pay her off (50th offer today when my pregnant sister was bawling on the phone to me). But my brother in law would kill me if I did it on the sly - I just know the way he is, he wants to deal with the situation himself through the solicitor and keep my sis out of it as much as he can. They are considering paying her off themselves but are so reluctant because she has been so nasty and such a liar (you should have read her PRTB submission!) that it pains them to give her even more money! 

Really appreciate the advice though and I will certainly pass it on!


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## Alana55 (3 Oct 2012)

AlbacoreA said:


> I assume they would cut off the RA and the another DSP payments. In my experience the tenant may move to another area to get this turned back on. Also be aware they may transfer any services like ESB, GAS back to the LL and continue to use it, leaving the LL with a bill. You might want to flag this to the companies involved.
> 
> Unfortunately I think the tenant knows what they are doing and stringing the LL along.


 
I will certainly flag this to them thanks for the tip!


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## truthseeker (3 Oct 2012)

oldnick said:


> Your sister should
> 
> - pay the blackmailer and end the saga.
> 
> ...




A number of years ago a friend had a similar problem so her brother and some of his friends (all early 20s), moved into the property with a few crates of beer and a stereo and began to party. The tenant called the guards. The guards called the owner, the owner said her brother had permission to be on her property, the guards said it was a civil matter and left and the partying continued. The tenant was out in a matter of hours. It was in the days before PRTB, it wasnt a legal solution, but it worked.


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## oldnick (3 Oct 2012)

About "direct action" :_

If you ask lawyers they will always advise caution ,going through the proper procedure. A waste of time ,as we keep saying.

The gardai don't want to know but there is a small possibility that if the tenant is clued up she may  take it further legally and say she was unlawfully evicted. Doubtful but there is a chance. 

I have in the past changed the locks twice and dumped stuff outside. But that was twenty years ago. I was younger and fitter and as my staff were mainly from Tallaght, Ballyfermot and North inner City they had brothers and friends who could assist me.

(In the meantime I've leanred the letting game and am much much more careful abouyt vetting tenants.)

My wife was horrified but it was necessary to show the non-paying damage-causing tenants that they would be advised not to take revenge - and that is something that you should take into consideration. If the tenant is a  nasty crazy person with connections then it may not be the legal consequnces that should worry you.

Look- we're talking about a few hundred Euros. Stop procrastinating and pay her if you don't want to take more "direct action", and because of your sister's condition and the small amount I'm not sure I'd recommend it in this case.


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## Kkma (3 Oct 2012)

Can a landlord take their own possessions out of a rented property? Say the cooker, fridge etc.?


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## Bronte (4 Oct 2012)

oldnick said:


> My wife was horrified but it was necessary to show the non-paying damage-causing tenants that they would be advised not to take revenge - and that is something that you should take into consideration. If the tenant is a nasty crazy person with connections then it may not be the legal consequnces that should worry you.


 
I had just such a scenario with a lovely couple and 3 kids, in my case I paid them back the deposit to leave, with my sister packed about 30 bags of rubbish, it was disgusting, I paid the binmen to take them, paid for all the repairs and later received a High Court summons from said tenants for personal injuries. On the court date, both she and he were brought from their respective jails (unheard of for a mother to be jailed - Judge was annoyed at her because he considered she was teaching her children to steal), but because they came from different jails, one of them missed the evidence of the other (and another family member lying) and case thrown out as stories didn't match. I found out the next house they went to they smashed all the windows, and he took a hurley stick to a teenager's head. I consider I had a very lucky escape. She also used to leave the very young kids home alone, I had to fly to Ireland to suss them out myself because they were expert at lies and you'd never think anything was wrong with the house.


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## Bronte (4 Oct 2012)

Alana55 said:


> At the same time a solicitors letter went to the CWO one went to the PRTB to inform them of the situation but no response as yet....
> 
> !


 
Your family have hired a solictor? Have you asked the fees for all this? A letter or email from you to the CWO costs nothing and you don't need a solicitor for the PRTB, you realise you are going to get zero back and will only incur more costs. 

This lady is a pro. She's playing you all beautifully. 

As for waiting for the PRTB, they are toothless, it can take months and you do realise all the orders and determinations they issue are a waste of the paper they are writtten on. If you don't believe me contact the IPOA as I've already suggested to you. 

Document everything, the abusive phone call, did she threaten you? 

Only satisfaction I get from this story is she must have been livid, and you have no idea how livid she would have been when CWO told her no more rent. It may move her on to do the same scam elsewhere on another unsuspecting landlord.

To get her out the lure of cash might do it, especially now she's lost the rent. She needs time to plan and move on.  Tell her you'll give her the cash, on a day that suits her, once she's out the door, and tell her not to do any damage or she's getting nothing, it might be enough to stop her doing damage.


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## PaddyW (4 Oct 2012)

AlbacoreA said:


> I assume they would cut off the RA and the another DSP payments. In my experience the tenant may move to another area to get this turned back on. *Also be aware they may transfer any services like ESB, GAS back to the LL and continue to use it, leaving the LL with a bill*. You might want to flag this to the companies involved.
> 
> Unfortunately I think the tenant knows what they are doing and stringing the LL along.


 
Can the landlord ring the companies involved and maybe ask them to cut off the services for the time being. A tenant without electricity or heating may leave sooner than they hoped to?


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## Bronte (4 Oct 2012)

PaddyW said:


> Can the landlord ring the companies involved and maybe ask them to cut off the services for the time being. A tenant without electricity or heating may leave sooner than they hoped to?


 
I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the tenant hasn't already transferred those accounts into the landlords name.


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## PaddyW (4 Oct 2012)

Bronte said:


> I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the tenant hasn't already transferred those accounts into the landlords name.


 
I'd say it's quite possible alright. And if they have done this, simply turning off the services would leave the tenant in a tough position with no energy or fuel, would you agree?


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## Bronte (4 Oct 2012)

There's a child in the house, and PRTB would take a really really dim view of one doing that.


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## Kkma (4 Oct 2012)

If the tenant had verbally agreed a date to move out a landlord might arrange to have power cut off shortly after that date to avoid paying standing charge...


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## delgirl (5 Oct 2012)

PaddyW said:


> Can the landlord ring the companies involved and maybe ask them to cut off the services for the time being. A tenant without electricity or heating may leave sooner than they hoped to?


Considering that this tenant seems to know / be playing the system, this could prove to be a very costly course of action for the landlord.

There are numerous dispute decisions on the [broken link removed], which have gone against landlords changing locks or cutting off uitlities. I can recall one dispute I read on their website, unfortunately I don't have time to dig it out today, where the landlord evicted non-paying tenants by moving their belongings from the house while they were out and changing the locks. 

The landlord had to pay in the region of €10,000 in damages to the ex-tenants and they still owed him money for unpaid rent etc. [broken link removed]

Whatever your sister does, she should record all contact with the tenant - smartphones have this facility and I used it with my troublesome tenant earlier this year.

There's some advice on how to proceed on [broken link removed] And here's the legal standpoint on [broken link removed].


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## Alana55 (5 Oct 2012)

Hello there,
I really want to thank people for the good information on here and I am certainly passing it on. Latest is the tenant rang the solicitor and gave her a whole pile of abuse on the phone - she is extremely frustrated and there's some satisfaction to be had there! The solicitor reckons she is actually a little bit nuts and it would be a mistake to give her cash as she is not a reasonable human being. 

The solicitor they are using is a friend and says they will only charge admin costs and no rush paying it - otherwise they really could not afford one. The real benefit is they are taking some of the pressure off and my family have no contact anymore with the tenant directly (because they too think she's a nutbag). I worry about the damage that might be done to the property at this point.....

One question - I hear the PRTB are toothless? Can they ever issue an order to evict a tenant? Assign a bailiff to do the job? If not then why the hell do they exist if they have no power? 

In the meantime the hope is to get the RA cheque paid directly - no response on that one yet but it would certainly help whilst this mess is being sorted...

Thanks again for taking the time to reply


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## Bronte (5 Oct 2012)

PRTB issues orders and decisions, and they can take court cases (rare). The PRTB do not have bailiffs, after you go through the long procedure (months or a year or two) then IF the PRTB have the money and IF the PRTB think it's worthwhile they will go to court.   Haven't heard about them actually succeeding in evicting anyone, someone else might have a record of this and might correct me if I've got the PRTB procedures incorrect.

I find it amazing that the family want to receive rent from RA for this tenant ? Surely they want rid of the tenant. 

It's not clear what the solicitor is doing hopefully issuing valid termination notices, but if everybody is happy that's great.


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## elcato (5 Oct 2012)

> The landlord had to pay in the region of €10,000 in damages to the  ex-tenants and they still owed him money for unpaid rent etc.


Slightly off-topic but what kind of action can the tenant take if they are owed money from the landlord after a PRTB ruling and the landlord simply refuses to pay ?


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## PaddyW (5 Oct 2012)

delgirl said:


> Considering that this tenant seems to know / be playing the system, this could prove to be a very costly course of action for the landlord.
> 
> There are numerous dispute decisions on the [broken link removed], which have gone against landlords changing locks or cutting off uitlities. I can recall one dispute I read on their website, unfortunately I don't have time to dig it out today, where the landlord evicted non-paying tenants by moving their belongings from the house while they were out and changing the locks.
> 
> ...


 
My apologies, I wasn't aware that this could end up costing so much to a landlord. It's scandalous really. Thanks for the info!


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## AlbacoreA (5 Oct 2012)

Alana55 said:


> ....In the meantime the hope is to get the RA cheque paid directly - no response on that one yet but it would certainly help whilst this mess is being sorted......



If you do that you can't evict them. Either evict them or get the rent you can't do both.


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## AlbacoreA (5 Oct 2012)

PaddyW said:


> Can the landlord ring the companies involved and maybe ask them to cut off the services for the time being. A tenant without electricity or heating may leave sooner than they hoped to?



You can't ask them to cut it off. (thats illegal you can be fined) You can tell them not to put the bills in the LL name as the tenant has been served notice and is overstaying. If they decide to get tough on their own unpaid bills, that's the companies own issue not yours. Usually a tenant in this position won't be paying any bills. And of course if a fault or problem arises with anything you don't have to fix it.


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## oldnick (5 Oct 2012)

Delgirl's most informative post and excellent links should send a chill down every LLs spine, if one hadn't already got one from bronte's horrific example of how tenants can abuse LLs.

What made me particularly shudder was the last part of the Delgirls' link to the landlord's website ("LLs' online")about a LL who took action through the court aftr PRTB's issuance of the "Determination Order (Order to evict).
It seems PRTB rarely enforce their own determination Orders. So, this LL took court action. ...

Now, the horrible part is this :-
The "landordsonline" article part 5 claims -as if it were good news - that "_all in all the LL succesfully received possession in less than four months from the PRTB Order to vacate " _
ONLY four months ??! 
And how long did it take the PRTB to issue the Order to Evict ?Surely some months after the first complaint from the LL. PRTB do not evict tenants within a few weeks after a LL's compalint.
And we don't know how much the tenant owed before the LL complained to PRTB.

It would seem that the "tenant" could owe up to a years rent before the "succesful" eviction.. And ONLY because the LL took action after the PRTB Order to Evict.

So this may have cost the LL , what ?, a years rent on a house or two-bedoomed apt - maybe 12.000 euros or more? Besides legal fees and all the time spent. 

So what's the alternative ,besides paying the tenant off ???

We read the case in Delgirl's link of the LL who illegally evicted tenants and his subsequent fine.
This LL did act stupidly in many ways. If he had followed a few procedural steps and then changed the locks he still would have acted illegally but would the fine have been so much ? 

A property owner has to weigh up the risks of losing several thousand Euros in non-payment of rent -or the fine which perhaps may be lessened if the owner acts carefully and cleverly.

Either way the LL is between a rock and a hard place.


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## AlbacoreA (6 Oct 2012)

Also if you rent the place out straight away, after an eviction, you lose less money than you end up having someone overstaying for a long time and not paying rent. Even taking into account a fine. At the end of the day the current system exposes the LL to high risk with little security.


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