# Hand back Keys to Bank -  Need advice



## Shindig

Hi all, I'm new to this site and am looking for some advice.

Basically my husband walked out on me and our 3 kids 2 years ago. We were building our new home at the time and our 3 kids and I moved in Dec '06. He moved to England and we got divorced July '07 (married in Australia). He made 1 payment into mortgage last year and nothing has been paid since. We have gone through the whole court process in England and the final judgement was made at the end of May this year. But ex-h has refused to pay what was ordered and since early July has been made bankrupt in England. He is paying very basic maintenance and at the moment it is being topped up with SWA. I'm hoping that the lone parents will be sorted within the next 2 wks. 
For obvious reasons I have not being paying the mortgage but I have kept up with the Life assurance policy and home insurance each month (250 p.m.). 
It is only a matter of time before the bank will resposess our home and the arrears are increasing substantially each month as the mortgage is 1,500 p.m. Can anybody tell me what is the process of handing back the keys to the bank and what are the repercussions of this. I just need to put a stop to the increase in arrears and my stress levels are also increasing. It just appears that everything has been landed onto my lap and he just walks away without a care in the world.
FYI he does not come to see kids nor does he call them - all contact is by email which I believe will subside soon.
I forgot to mention that kids and I live in Ireland and our home is here also.

Thanks to advise
Shindig


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## jhegarty

*Re: Hand back Keys to Bank??????  Need advice*

Are you in positive or negative equity ?


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## Shindig

*Re: Hand back Keys to Bank??????  Need advice*

About 50k neg equity


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## csirl

*Re: Hand back Keys to Bank??????  Need advice*

Probably not the answer you want to hear, but the UK concept of getting out of a mortgage by "handing back the keys" does not exist in Ireland, so you cant do it. If you can no longer afford the house and want to dispose of it, you are responsible for selling it and paying back the owed money to the bank. 

Have you spoken to the bank about the situation? If you are in arrears, you should maintain regular contact with them so that they are up to speed with your circumstances. 

Who's name is the house in and what was agreed concerning it in the divorce settlement?


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## Shindig

*Re: Hand back Keys to Bank??????  Need advice*

I have been in regular contact with the bank from the word go - even before we moved into house so they have been informed of everything - I did not hide anything from them.
Ex-h was ordered to pay a weekly amount in maintenance, pay my legal fees and also the title deeds were to be changed into my name but him still on the mortgage.  Ex-h did not show up for the court hearing.
Spoke with my community welfare officer yesterday and she informed me that I probably would not get the mortgage interest supplement as it is too high but a final decision has not been made on this yet.


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## dem_syhp

Have you been in touch with MABS?  

I appreciate that you are in a different position to others where it's your ex-husband that's defaulting and I don't know how this sits in Irish Law.  

You could also post information as suggested in the key post of this section, here.  People might be able to suggest where you can save and potentially bring in more income.  I appreciate it's not your direct question.


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## Shindig

I have spoken with MABS but I have not approached them about handing back the keys - I have been trying to get hold of the person I deal with this week to get advice.  
If I was to go back to work it would cost me a fortune in childcare and travel costs as my kids are 6, 3.5 and 2 - It would not be viable at the moment.  
What I get each between SWA and maintenance totals 269 so there is not much left over after paying the bills.


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## Brendan Burgess

*Re: Hand back Keys to Bank??????  Need advice*



csirl said:


> the UK concept of getting out of a mortgage by "handing back the keys" does not exist in Ireland,


 
Interestingly enough, it doesn't really apply in the UK either! If the bank repossesses the home, they are entitled to pursue the borrower for and deficit after selling the house. 

In practice, they will probably write it off, if they feel that they have no hope of recovering it. 

Shindig

It is much better, if at all possible, that you sell the house yourself and pay the proceeds to the bank. If the bank sells it, they will just sell it at any price. It's unlikely that they will come after you for the deficit, but it's better to keep the deficit as low as possible anyway.

And as you realize that you have to sell it, you don't want all the hassle and expense of court actions. 

Have you been onto the Local Authority about housing? After you sell your home, you will need somewhere to live. 

Brendan


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## bacchus

Shindig said:


> I have kept up with the Life assurance policy and home insurance each month (250 p.m.).


 
That seems very very high, €3000 per year. Have you considered reviewing this?


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## askalot

*Re: Hand back Keys to Bank??????  Need advice*



Brendan said:


> Interestingly enough, it doesn't really apply in the UK either! If the bank repossesses the home, they are entitled to pursue the borrower for and deficit after selling the house.
> 
> In practice, they will probably write it off, if they feel that they have no hope of recovering it.



Not really. I worked with an English bloke who 'handed' the keys to his house in England back to the bank during the last crash in the 90s. He came over here to work and five years later they came looking for the 75,000 sterling that was outstanding after the sale of his house. It dragged on but he eventually had to pay.


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## Shindig

Thanks a million for all your replies.

I have tried to reduce the life assurance policy but no go.  They would need his signature as well and he will not give this.  I do not know where in the world he is working at the moment as he is an aircraft engineer and works as a contractor.

Brendan my reasoning behind handing the bank the keys now is so that the arrears will not increase any more.  As you are probably aware by the repayments the house is quite big and is situated in the country and probably not in a location most people would be interested in.  It also needs a lot of work done to it eg. landscaping, septic tank problems, fencing, etc..  As his lordship has been declared bankrupt in England the bank here has told me that they will not be chasing him.  

The feedback I'm getting is that the house will not sell easily more especially in the current climate.  So if I put the house up for sale and it does not sell within the next 3 months for example then the arrears will have increased by 4,500.  The stress of it all is getting too much for me and is affecting my homelife with my 3 kids - I need to end it all now with this house and move on with our lives.

My brother has a house down the road from us which he is going to do up and I am going to apply for rent allowance - I am currently pulling strings to get on the council listing as I applied ages ago and nobody has come to interview me yet.

Shindig


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## ClubMan

Handing back the keys will not in itself absolve you of any responsibility for this situation. To do that you need to get your name off the mortgage deeds etc. Selling is an obvious way of doing this. Regardless of the history leading to this situation you are responsible for the mortgage debt and arrears so you need to think about realistic ways of dealing with this problem. What did _MABS _advise when you contacted them?


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## Shindig

The guy from MABS told me that if the bank do look for monies to be repaid then it will be at what I can afford each week/month.  So I will be paying back for the rest of my days.  My arguement also is when this mortgage was taken out it was based on his earnings as I was not working at the time but as the bank keeps on telling me that we are both jointly and severally liable.  
Selling will not absolve me of any responsibilities either as there will be still a large amount of monies owing - also I cannot afford to pay for estate agent and legal fees for the sale.
I am being very realistic here - I'm screwed because of ex-h walking away free from all of this without a care in the world and not being made to pay a penny.  He can earn in 1 week alone (over 6k Stg) and has done this year.  As I have previously mentioned I have 3 kids.  If I go back to work - what I earn goes on childcare and travel expences as I do not have formal education behind me I will probably be on minimum wage.  If I work at something from home then I will lose my LPA.  My options are very limited and whichever way I turn there will always be a defecit which is up to me to clear.
I am trying to do the best that I can in the situation that I am in but I cannot let it go on any further.  I am desperate for help.


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## Marietta

Shindig, I am very sorry to read of your plight, it's dreadful that your ex earns 6,000 a week and not pay a penny towards the family home, little does he care of the innocent little children he helped bring into the world. What I don't understand is why don't you go back to the courts in England and demand higher maintenance. Also, if your ex is earning 6000 a week, how does he manage to bank it, I was of the impression that once a person is made bankrupt they are not allowed to have much in a bank account or not allowed to have any bank account at all.  I wish I had more to say or to offer you but it looks like the odds are stacked against you. It is very very unfair.


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## Shindig

Marietta
He works as a contractor through agencies in the UK.  These agencies pay him through an umbrella company offshore.  If I knew where he was working I could possibly find out what agency he works for.  For the final court hearing in England my solicitor summonsed the agency he was working for at that time for a statement of his income for the last 2 years.  I had no idea he was earning that amount of money.
I do believe that he has money stashed in either his partner's account or offshore somewhere but I cannot prove it.
There is no point in demanding higher maintenance as he is not and will not pay what has originally been ordered.  I do think at the present time for bankruptcy purposes that he has taken a lower paying job - cause the poor soul cannot afford to support his 3 kids.  
At the final court hearing the judge did want to put an attachment of earnings order on his wages but because the contracts were a contract of services rather than employment, he could not do so.  
I also do believe that for his statement of bankruptcy he lied through his teeth but because I cannot get a copy of this statement then I cannot prove this.  He has lied in his affidavitt of means for ancillary relief proceedings and on questionnaires which were lodged into the courts and because of this the judge ordered that he pay my legal fees, which of course has not been done yet.
I have asked my solicitor in England to forward on a copy of his statment of income from his previous employers to the insolvency agency in England because unlike here, he will be discharged from bankruptcy next June.


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## Brendan Burgess

Shindig

I am not sure if you fully appreciate that handing back the keys does not stop the arrears from rising. It is a meaningless exercize. Stay in the house until you have managed to sell it yourself. 

You can pay the legal fees and the auctioneers' fees from the proceeds of sale, although you might need to get the bank's permission in advance to do this.

Brendan


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## Shindig

Brendan what happens if the house does not sell??  What will happen to the arrears??  They are over 30k at the moment.  House is in 50k negative equity!  I do not believe that the bank will take a hit for 50k plus.  Is it not best to stop now and let the bank do what they will.  
I have been told by mabs that the bank will not reposess this house as in the country word gets around and if people know that the bank took a house from a lone parent with 3 young kids - nobody will buy it.  
I cannot take the chance of owing more than what is outstanding already


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## Susanna

Dear Shindig,

So sorry for all the stress you are going through. I am sure everything will work out for you in the end...just hang on in there and get help fom all the available agencies here in Ireland.

If you contact a social worker they will offer you advice (because you have 3 vulnerable kids) and will get you priority housing when you have sold your other house. 

Contact the Community welfare officer they will give you a list of your entitlements.

You could try the rollercoaster website to see if any Mums near you could mind your kids for a few hours (or friends) if you have to get out and work.

Could you rent this house and move in with friends?


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## Brendan Burgess

> I cannot take the chance of owing more than what is outstanding already


Sorry Shindig

But you are missing the point. Whether or not you "hand back the keys" this will continue. After you vacate the house, the interest will continue to pile up on it until the house is sold and the loan paid off or reduced. 

What about Susanna's idea of renting the house if you are able to move in with your brother?  Presumably you would not get a rent allowance if you are renting out a home which you own.

You have already met the bank. You should meet them again and ask them what they want you to do. You should follow this up with a letter confirming what has been agreed. They will not take legal action while you are trying to solve the problem. 

If you sell the house and are left with, say, a €70k deficit, you will still owe the bank €70k but they will not be able to do anything about it. They might go after your ex husband though. They are experts in going after people with money. 

Brendan


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## Marietta

Shindig, Put the house up for sale yourself. Brendan is right they can't chase you for the money, they'll know you haven't got it. Great if they can catch up with that ex husband though... Take care of yourself and your kids and PG everything will work out ok for you.


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## Shindig

My brother's house is up for sale at the moment and nobody has even come to look at it.  He does not live in this house.  He built it to sell on.  But he will put in a kitchen, floor coverings, etc. and rent to us.  He cannot afford to do up his house and let us live there for free.
The house next door to us was also built for resale and has been on the market for nearly 2 years with no offers.
This house is not suitable for renting as I have previously said that its needs landscaping and fencing and worst of all there is problems with the septic tank which I cannot afford to fix.
What happens if my house does not sell - what will the banks do then??
Is there anyway of capping the repayments now?


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## Complainer

Sorry to hear of your extremely difficult circumstances.



Shindig said:


> I have been told by mabs that the bank will not reposess this house as in the country word gets around and if people know that the bank took a house from a lone parent with 3 young kids - nobody will buy it.




I don't think this is good advice from MABS. Banks have repossessed houses in difficult circumstances before, and there is always some bargain-hunter happy to buy at a discount, regardless of what kind of publicity storm will ensue.

It does sound like you'll have little choice but to sell. Once the dust settles, you can see where that leaves you. If you don't have any other assets or income, there is little that the bank can do regardless.


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## micmclo

Susanna said:


> If you contact a social worker they will offer you advice (because you have 3 vulnerable kids) and will get you priority housing when you have sold your other house.
> 
> Contact the Community welfare officer they will give you a list of your entitlements.



I'm kinda suprised that someone can sell a house and then apply for council housing. But that's a debate for another thread I suppose.....
But yes, go see the CWO officer. There is help and advice out there if you know where to go



Shindig said:


> I have been told by mabs that the bank will not reposess this house as in the country word gets around and if people know that the bank took a house from a lone parent with 3 young kids - nobody will buy it.



No chance, if the bank repossess the house they will try to sell it quickly. This could mean a bargain price and people will be circling like vultures if a bargain comes up. Sure I've seen posts on this site asking for info on where to find lists of repossesed houses.

Now if your family were feared and dangerous criminals and the Criminal Assets Bureau seized your house, people would hesitate to buy for obvious reasons. 
But this doesn't apply here, your house could be snapped up if the bank sell it cheap to cover the debts. I realy don't know where you got this idea from


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## Susanna

micmclo said:


> I'm kinda suprised that someone can sell a house and then apply for council housing. But that's a debate for another thread I suppose.....


 
It's not just anyone, it is a mother in financial trouble who cannot afford the roof over her head, and has three young children. If she had no children the social worker would not get involved.


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## micmclo

Agreed Susanna


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## Vanilla

I need a little more information if you feel comfortable giving it:

1. What is the value of the house?

2. What is the mortgage outstanding?

3. What is the term of your mortgage?

4. In whose name is the mortgage- yours and his or his solely?

5. Where were your court proceedings and what form did these take? In Ireland or England, a property adjustment order or jud separation or divorce?

6. When the court proceedings were heard what maintenance was he ordered to pay?

7. Have you sought legal advice about going back to court for a new property adjustment order in relation to the new circumstances? 

8. Have you gone to meet your bank manager, asked for a stay on repayments for a period or interest only? 

9. Would you be able to rent the house out- is there a market for this?

Hopefully if you are able to provide the above information we can help more or make other suggestions.


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## ClubMan

Shindig said:


> My brother's house is up for sale at the moment and nobody has even come to look at it


Maybe his asking price is too high?


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## Shindig

Replies to your questions part 2:

1.  280k - last valuation done last January - the estate age did say that I'd be lucky to get this price because of the amount of work which needed to be done.

2.  330k approx

3.  25yrs.  23yrs left on term.

4.  Joint names.

5.  Divorce proceedings took place in England - absolut July '07.  I instigated ancillary relief proceedings.  Final court hearing May '08.  Court ordered that he pay my legal costs and a property adjustment order.  Because ex did not show up for court he could not order for his name to be taken off the mortgage only the title deeds.  Judge did not make an maintenance order for our kids (which I thought was strange) but he did make one for me for the rest of my life or until I got married again.

From what I can understand the judge in England can make an order but cannot enforce it over here - I'm open to contridiction on that as I keep getting conflicting information.

6.  pm'd you on that

7.  No.  Because I cannot afford it if he does not pay the maintenance which was ordered.

8.  No.  But I did ask my solicitor here if this can be organised with the bank - so we're waiting the bank's response.

9.  I have'nt asked that question as there are problems with the house and also I probably would not get rent allowance for another property if I did rent here out.


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## ClubMan

Vanilla said:


> 7. Have you sought legal advice about going back to court for a new property adjustment order in relation to the new circumstances?





Shindig said:


> 7.  No.  Because I cannot afford it if he does not pay the maintenance which was ordered.


What about the Legal Aid Board?


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## Shindig

What I meant was if the property was transferred to me then I still cant pay for it unless he paid the maintenance which was ordered.


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## Vanilla

This is a mess. 

I cannot understand how a court would make a property adjustment order which would keep your name on the mortgage in circumstances where you cannot pay it yourself.

I'm also amazed that no maintenance order was made for your children albeit that that is beside the point.

In the circumstances I wonder if the matter should be revisited in the English courts. Is it too late to appeal the matter? 

You need to seek legal advice on this straightaway. We have the Legal Aid Board for people who cannot pay for private legal advice- is there a similar system in the UK? In any case I presume that you can at least make a phone call to your UK solicitor and get some preliminary advice.

In the interim you need to meet with your local bank/BS manager and explain the situation and press for a temporary stop on the repayments.


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## dem_syhp

Vanilla said:


> You need to seek legal advice on this straightaway. We have the Legal Aid Board for people who cannot pay for private legal advice- is there a similar system in the UK? In any case I presume that you can at least make a phone call to your UK solicitor and get some preliminary advice.


 
I believe this is the equivalent in the UK: http://www.legalservices.gov.uk/

Or at least, they might be able to point you in the correct direction.


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## noel123ie

Hi

Id agree with Vanilla try and get back to put mortgage on hold for 6 months(this is max I think)

I did this recently with Ulster Bank

Also after that you can go interest only this can be up to 5 years this will knock my mortgage from 820 to 550.

I will have to pay off the mortgage over the original term which will increase my repayments when I go back to normal capital and interest repayments.

However it gave me some breathing space  which would be great for you

Hope this helps
Noel


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## ClubMan

noel123ie said:


> Hi
> 
> Id agree with Vanilla try and get back to put mortgage on hold for 6 months(this is max I think)
> 
> I did this recently with Ulster Bank


Were you already in arrears when you did this?


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## noel123ie

No I was not

Noel


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## ClubMan

noel123ie said:


> No I was not
> 
> Noel


I doubt that it would work for the original poster so. With significant arrears already I doubt that any lender will let them take a repayment break.


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## Vanilla

ClubMan said:


> I doubt that it would work for the original poster so. With significant arrears already I doubt that any lender will let them take a repayment break.


 

You could be right especially given the fact that at the moment there is no proposal afoot that would suggest to the bank that when the payment break is up things will be different.

I have had a client who, in some arrears, did manage to persuade the bank for a payment break. She went armed with a proposal as to how after the payment break she would be able to repay though. Perhaps the suggestion to the bank that you will be pursuing your ex for the arrears through the courts or some other proposal?


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## noel123ie

Hi there

Yes true what about  ex's parents they surely have some conscience and would miss not seeing there grankids.

I had a friend in similiar circumstances and this worked for them

Maybe they could put pressure to bear,
Noel


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## Shindig

Hi all
Thanks a million for all your replies.

I have tried his parents on numerous occasions.  They have tried to speak with him but no joy.  There is very little contact between them for the last 2 years.  So I'm being told anyway because his parents live in Australia so I cannot say for sure.  The last time I was speaking with his mother, she told me that she did not even have a contact number for him and did not know where he was working either.  

Property Adjustment Order:  He made this order because if I was in receipt of the weekly maintenance which was ordered then I would not have any problems paying it off and the arrears.

Appeal Order:  The appeal had to be made within 14 days from the date of the order.  I am presuming that it can be appealed down the road but I do think that it is a pointless exercise as ex-h is making it very clear that he will not pay what was ordered and is going to extreme measures to ensure this.  

My English solicitor is having serious problems getting to speak with somebody in the insolvency agency who is dealing with ex-h.  I have asked him to send on the statement of income which we received prior to final hearing so I am hoping that this will make a difference.  Seemingly a trustee has not been appointed for ex-h yet which seems strange as he was declared bankrupt on 1/7/08.

There is no free legal aid board in England.  They need to be paid back once the case is complete.  At least with the solicitor I have already he has been paid some monies already so if ex-h ever decides to pay costs then there will be funds there to pay for his services.

I can try the bank for a repayment break - I think I asked about this before with them but I cannot remember the answer.

Thanks for all your help

Shindig


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## Bronte

OP I am very sorry for your circumstances, I offer different advice, you are wasting you time going after your ex, it will only cost you time, money and frustration, a man that does not want to be found will not be.  There is no magic wand or law court in the world that can get someone who can move country/disappear/hide earnings.  I think that you should go down the route of meeting the bank and telling them you are not making any more payments, they will then bring about proceedings to get you to leave the house, it will take them quite a time and you can then arrange to get state housing/rent allowance or whatever,  yes you will owe the bank for the difference between the sale price and the debt but if you are on a low income and in rented accommodation I don't see any bank wasting their time chasing you, hopefully they will go after your husband but I doubt it but if they do they can afford to chase him.   If they give up on the debt make sure that you never acquire any assets (you need to know the time limits) or marry etc.  I know that the banks in the UK waiting until the six years was nearly up (I think the statute of limitations was that long) and then they went after the people who had now gotton back on their feet and some had even bought property.  As for your ex, if he feels you are backing off, he may start again, marry acquire property/assets etc, it's hard to run forever.  Then is the time to go after him.  You need to know if the maintenance order you now have will be enforceable in arrears and if it is you may be in for a windfall in the future.  Best of luck in this desperate situation and remember there is always light at the end of the tunnel.


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## ClubMan

Shindig said:


> There is no free legal aid board in England.


There is no *free *legal aid board in _Ireland _either. The _Legal Aid Board _here in _Ireland _requires some form of payment no matter how nominal for services provided.


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## Shindig

When I enquired about this last year I needed to have an income of £290stg per week or less to qualify.  But between maintenance, SWA, child benefit and childcare allowance I did not qualify then and I would not qualify now.


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## Raskolnikov

Bronte said:


> you are wasting you time going after your ex, it will only cost you time, money and frustration, a man that does not want to be found will not be.


I agree with this.

Your ex-husband has extricated himself from this and quite frankly, you should too. I cannot see how you can possibly make any payments on your mortgage. 

Have you any assets at all? Car, pension, etc? If you don't have anything, then I wouldn't be too bothered about the bank making a significant loss when they sell the property. After all, you can't draw blood from a stone.

Another possibility for you could be to get in touch with one of the newspapers? It's probably fighting dirty, but maybe the bank would be more willing for fore go a bad loan rather than have their name dragged through the mud.

I hope things work out for you. If you have a chance, it would be great if you could update us on the bankruptcy/repossession proceedings. We're in uncharted territory here and maybe your experiences can be of benefit to any other poor soul who finds themselves in your situation.


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## mf1

"Another possibility for you could be to get in touch with one of the newspapers? It's probably fighting dirty, but maybe the bank would be more willing for fore go a bad loan rather than have their name dragged through the mud."

"If they give up on the debt make sure that you never acquire any assets (you need to know the time limits) or marry etc. I know that the banks in the UK waiting until the six years was nearly up (I think the statute of limitations was that long) and then they went after the people who had now gotton back on their feet and some had even bought property. "

I don't understand this logic. From either poster. This woman patently cannot afford to stay in this house. Banks have a responsibility to their shareholders. Most banks are fairly decent but this form of advice just muddies the whole thing up as if in some way the banks were wrong to want to protect their position? 

And can anyone tell me why Banks should write off debt? They have zero obligation to do so. And why should people not be responsible for their debt? 

mf


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## Shindig

Raskolnikov, I would have no problems coming back on here to update how I got on and hopefully provide some useful information to more people in my position.  But I have to say in fairness to the bank in question I could not have been more lucky so far with them.  They have been great and I do understand that they have to get their money back in some way but I would not and could not go to the newspapers on this.  I do not see where that would get me and also I would probably come out at the other end looking like a fool.

I came onto this website to get useful information to help my 3 kids and myself and what you have suggested is not one bit helpful.  I am pretty sure that there are lots more people in the same situation as me out there checking out this thread wondering if they should go to the papers.  I have an undertaking with the bank and I am not trying to run away from it.  I want it to stop and I need good solid advice.  My ex left us with a big mess and I am left to pick up the pieces and it will take me a lot of years to clear this up.  

Rgds

Shindig


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## Complainer

mf1 said:


> And can anyone tell me why Banks should write off debt?


Maybe because (like RTE & Bev Flynn) they realise they have no practical chance of recovering the money?

What happens when you sell a mortgaged house in a negative equity position? Where this is equity, the mortgage gets cleared and the owner pockets whatever is left over (ignoring CGT for the moment). In this kind of scenario, does the bank have a veto over the sale? Would they block the sale?


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## Bronte

The bank may have been fairly decent until now and I don't doubt they were/are but at the end of the day they will be coming after their money as they are entitled to do and family home or not the OP will be evicted. That is the stark reality, banks are not charity. I am giving the OP advice not the bank's shareholders and I never see a bank on AAM with problems. Banks are well able to look after themselves. In Ireland when they run into trouble the goverment helps them out (AIB) but I don't see the government helping out people in debt. And in turn when goverment members are in trouble banks help them out (Haughey & FitzGerald) In fact a lot of people are in a right mess now because of banks lending to people who cannot afford it. Sorry if this is a rant, but I have a problem with banks. In an ideal world the OP would be able to sort this out, which she patently is trying to do, but she is running out of options. If the bank takes your house and you have nothing they will probably go after your husband, if he pays of the debt then you will have no further liabilities but you will have a problem with your credit rating. By the way, in case anyone thinks otherwise I agree with the other advice but one needs all options in order to make a decision.


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## mf1

"In this kind of scenario, does the bank have a veto over the sale? Would they block the sale?"

The actual process of selling a property over which there is a mortgage is that the lender ( Bank) will only release the Deeds to a Solicitor - we take them up from the Bank on what is called "accountable trust receipt". We can only release the Deeds to someone else ( i.e. the purchaser/purchasers solicitor) if we have sufficient funds to discharge the mortgage - otherwise   we are responsible for the difference. 

So, yes, banks do have a veto - a borrower in negative equity would have to fund the difference between sale price and mortgage loan somehow or, get the agreement of the bank to accept a lower amount or some other loan repayment scheme to allow a sale to complete.

mf


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## Raskolnikov

mf1: Yes the banks have an obligation to the shareholders, but there's little point in keeping a non-performing loan on their books. Banks all over the world have already written off billions of dollars of mortgages, I don't see why Irish banks would be any different.


Shindig said:


> I came onto this website to get useful information to help my 3 kids and myself and what you have suggested is not one bit helpful.  I am pretty sure that there are lots more people in the same situation as me out there checking out this thread wondering if they should go to the papers.  I have an undertaking with the bank and I am not trying to run away from it.  I want it to stop and I need good solid advice.  My ex left us with a big mess and I am left to pick up the pieces and it will take me a lot of years to clear this up.


I'm sorry if you found my comments unhelpful. I was merely trying to make a suggestion as to how you would get out of your current predicament. I wouldn't have imagined that after a bank had repossessed a home; that they would pursue an unemployed, single mother of three children too vigorously.

What I don't understand is why you're so willing to take the burden of this alone. Just because your ex-husband has walked away from this, his name is still on the mortgage. Regardless of whether he is in Tipperary or Timbuktu, he is liable for half the mortgage. Even if you have to cover half the negative equity, I can't see how you could possibly pay it off while on welfare. The only option for you is to advise the bank to issue repossession hearings. Then hope that the bank would be willing to write off the negative equity you still owe.

I'm actually surprised the bank haven't started this process already. In the States, banks usually only wait for three months before they take back a property.


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## Complainer

mf1 said:


> So, yes, banks do have a veto - a borrower in negative equity would have to fund the difference between sale price and mortgage loan somehow or, get the agreement of the bank to accept a lower amount or some other loan repayment scheme to allow a sale to complete.



Thanks for the clarification. Have you any idea on what is happening in practice with negative equity sales here in Ireland?


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## mf1

Complainer said:


> Thanks for the clarification. Have you any idea on what is happening in practice with negative equity sales here in Ireland?




No, I've heard nothing yet but then my practice has older client profile- as in, I don't have a lot of younger clients - who I think are the ones most likely to get hit. 

I would speculate though that Banks might agree to release a mortgage on a property to enable  a sale to close and get some funds but I suspect they will look for some other form of security - possibly a guarantee from another person who has property.  Or a charge on their property. 

Scary thought. 

mf


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## DeclanP

Shindig, it is time to file a statement of means to the bank. This is a statement of your income and outgoings which, no doubt, will reveal an inability to repay a mortgage of this magnitude.
Try and use every means possible to source alternative accommodation through your local authority — TDs, councillors, etc — as your present location can only be but a temporary one.
In the event of the bank adopting a legal route to recover the deficit of the mortgage vs the sale price of the house, they stand no chance in court if you have a statement of means submitted and are willing to stand by this.
No court would make either an instalment order or, worse still, a committal order against you in your circumstances. 
It is time to leave this house and this life behind you once and for all


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## Shindig

Last April the bank asked for one which I sent onto then. I did it up on an spreadsheet for 1 month. At that time I was receiving more maintenance from ex. I never heard anything back from the bank on this - TBH I completely forgot about it. 

I have contacted a local consellor and MABS about getting on the housing list so hopefully I will get something sorted on that soon.



> It is time to leave this house and this life behind you once and for all


 
How do I go about doing that????  What do I need to do??.


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## DeclanP

It's good that you are on a housing list and hopefully you will qualify for something that you can afford. With regard to your present circumstances, it is obvious that you cannot afford the repayment of the current mortgage and will have to consider the future as opposed to the past. might seem simplistic but it is what you have to do. The bank cannot squeeze you beyond the legal means albeit they seem to have been quite fair to you in the circumstances. Still, they know that you cannot dig yourself out of this in the foreseeable future and will leave the next move up to you. The courts won't allow you go to jail over the debt, nor will you be declared bankrupt. It may not be a 'handing back the keys' situation but it will be very similar. The important thing is for you to find yourself alternative accommodation as soon as possible. Citizens Advice Bureau should be able to advise regarding legal aid by which to dispose of your house.


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## SarahMc

You are not going to be able to get social housing until you offload the house.

You will have to sell it, and lower the price until you do.  You will still owe the bank lots of money, but when they take you to court a judge can only order what you can afford to pay (MABS can support you in Court).  The problem is the loan will never be forgiven, so when your circumstances improve, children older, well paid job, maybe new partner - you will still owe the money.

Your only options really are
a) sell now, get the monkey off your back, and deal with the debt when your circumstances are better.
b) carry on struggling.



Bronte said:


> T
> In Ireland when they run into trouble the goverment helps them out (AIB) but I don't see the government helping out people in debt.



I have to challenge you on that.  Dept Social Community and Family Affairs fund a MABS office in practically every town in Ireland.


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## kopq

As regards getting on your local authority housing list, if you just go in there, fill out the form and hand it in, the minute they see that you own a house, your application will be refused. 

I'd advise you to go to your local office, outline your situation and see what can be done. I used to work for one of the Dublin local authorities and in exceptional circumstances, home owners would be accepted on the list provided the house was sold and a financial contribution was made to the council. I don't know if this would still be insisted upon now that times have changed and people are facing negative equity. 

It's no harm to talk to them anyway and see what they say. Good luck.


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## bond-007

mf1 said:


> No, I've heard nothing yet but then my practice has older client profile- as in, I don't have a lot of younger clients - who I think are the ones most likely to get hit.
> 
> I would speculate though that Banks might agree to release a mortgage on a property to enable  a sale to close and get some funds but I suspect they will look for some other form of security - possibly a guarantee from another person who has property.  Or a charge on their property.
> 
> Scary thought.
> 
> mf


And if none of these were available, the bank would simply just go to court and repossess?


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## Shindig

I got an email from my solicitor here and he has been speaking to the bank so I am to call him tomorrow morning to get an update.  I'll let yee know whats happening or going to happen!!!!


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## mf1

bond-007 said:


> And if none of these were available, the bank would simply just go to court and repossess?



Mostly, this is the last resort. I suspect it happens when:

(a) There is zero communication from the borrower.
or 
(b) Even if they are in touch, that it is beyond doubt that the borrowers will not face up to reality. 

These are uncharted waters - but its where we're heading. My advice would always be to face up to the problem and get proper advice. Once you're clear about the situation, assess it and decide how to deal with it. Definitely consider selling - if that is possible. Negotiate with the lender about any possible shortfall. If it is not possible to sell, consider if there is any possibility of extending the loan or finding additional income. Repossession should be the very last resort. 

mf


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## annpg

Shindig,
So sorry to hear of your plight and your ex should be hanging his head in shame..anyway, my sister was in a similar situation recently.  Her husband walked out over a year ago and stopped paying the mortgage and although she got a court ordered maintenance payment for the two kids, he left his job and pays 10e per week from his dole (he's a plumber though and has a mountain of work on the black market.)
From the start, she contacted the bank - to cut a very long story short, she also contacted her Community Welfare Officer and once her LPA was sorted, (which took about 3 months) they also paid all her mortgage arrears (over 7000) to the bank AND she now gets 700pm off her 1460 mortgage.  She had to get a job herself to cover the extra but is managing (just about) now.  
So go to your CWO - I know your arrears are alot more than my sisters, but they WILL help you.  Best of luck.


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## Bronte

What is LPA?


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## Welfarite

Lone Parent's Allowance? Officially called One-parent Family Payment. Or, in the pre-PC days, Unmarried Mother's Allowance!


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## sfag

Does anybody know - given her situation - what is the likelyhood of the Bank selling the house if she 
(a) doesent pay
(b) pays some each month.
(c) will the bank gain by selling at the moment?
(d) is a judge likely to rule in the banks favour if they decided to evict?


Wouldn’t the bank let her live there at reduced payments - what ever you can afford - I know that does not absolve the debt but it might enable you to park the worry for the forseeable future.
Recent Anecdotal evidences called for here. I suppose we are in uncharted waters here as it is the first time in a long time that banks have faced making a loss on house by reselling them.


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## bond-007

I know of one person that a bank has got a repossession order but they allow him to pay them rent.


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## Bronte

bond-007 said:


> I know of one person that a bank has got a repossession order but they allow him to pay them rent.


 The only reason a bank will do this is either it would be bad publicity to evict a family or selling the house will not repay the mortgage by a long way and banks have taken a decision not to start an avalance of evictions thereby causing a crash?  I'm sure all the banks in Ireland have not met to give a united front on negative equity.  Where is the benefit to the bank in this?  Maybe the renter will get a chance to save and pay back the arrears and reposses the house, is this possible?  I suppose it would be if the arrears are capped as in no further interest?  Or they evict when property prices have gone back up.


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## Complainer

I guess we are indeed in uncharted territory here, and the banks are in an unenviable position. It might make sense for them to block a sale if the seller is playing games and selling below market price. For a bona fide seller selling at current market price, I'm not sure that it makes sense for them to block the sale, even if it leaves them with a lump of unsecured debt. The alternative to not selling is just increasing arrears and higher debt with no prospect of it being repaid (sounds like the Tony Soprano school of lending).

I doubt if there are many people in the OP's position who could find someone else willing to secure their negative equity. And is it really fair for the banks to look for such security - they were happy to lend on the basis of the mortgage, so why should they look for a second bite of the cherry now?


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## Shindig

Spoke with solicitor today.  Looks like we'll have christmas dinner here anyway.  He needs to contact my ex, as his signature is required, to see if he will cooperate.  So that at least will take a while.  Things are on hold at the moment with the bank until we hear back from ex.  He did say that the whole process will take months to be sorted and not to be rushing into anything.  Its a waiting game now with ex to see if he will respond.  The pressure is off for the time being.

Thanks a million to everyone for all you comments and help and I will try and keep yee updated as things progress.

Shindig


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## PaddyW

Hope everything works out ok for you Shindig, please god.


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## Sue Ellen

Shindig said:


> Looks like we'll have christmas dinner here anyway.  The pressure is off for the time being.
> Shindig



Hi Shindig,

Glad to hear that the pressure is off for the moment at least and hope you have a good Christmas and get to enjoy your children with the excitement of Santa etc.

Hope things work out well in the long term and that you will be able to put all this horrible stress behind you in the future.

Best Wishes. 

Sue Ellen.


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## cnu

long time reader of your post, shindig am happy for you... hope things get better from here..


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## Deb___

Best of luck to you and your children Shindig. My heart goes out to you being in this horrible predicament but I'm glad the pressure is off for now.


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## Shindig

Hi all, I hav'nt been on this site for a while but I did say that I would update on my situation.

We are still in the house 18 month's later & for the past 13 months I have not heard anything from the bank until last week, in which they asked me to pay the outstanding amount within 10 days or else legal action will begin.  This seems to be the standard letter which they send to me each time.  

Meanwhile I still have no idea where my ex-husband is currently living & working.  He was meant to come & see our kids last weekend & this weekend but he back out last week - he has not seen them since Jan 2008.

Don't quote me on this, but I believe (& have been told off the record by a solicitor) that the reason why the bank have not repossed the house at the moment is because   they need his co-operation & signature.  I do not even have an address or telephone number for him.

He does call our kids each weekend & they have asked him for his address & number but he tells them that due to the nature of his work he lives in hotels & because of his bankruptcy cannot afford to get a phone.

He now sends maintenance through the bank bi-weekly & that comes from the Commonwealth Bank in Brisbane.  On the receipt which I receive from the bank, there is an address for him but I don't believe that he is actually living over there - I think he is routing the maintence through Australia so that I cannot find out where he actually is.  It also appears that he has broken up with his partner but again I am not 100% sure.

I have gone back to college doing a degree.  I do receive the grant and BTEA but most of that is eaten up each week on childcare & petrol.  Maintenance has been reduced again & with the high cost of maintaining this house (heating & ESB) there are no extra funds available each week.  My youngest is still in playschool so he will not be receiving the free playschool place until next Sept but because he is in a community based playschool that will be a saving of only €25 p/w (but better than nothing).  I have a lady picking up my kids from school & bringing them back to my house & minding them here until I get home.  

If I hear anymore from the bank I will keep you updated.


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