# Criminal or civil case- differing opinions



## chasm (14 Jan 2011)

Could anyone tell me how my friend stands in this situation?

His solicitor has said he can do no more with his case as he believes it to be a criminal matter but when my friend spoke with the guards previous to this they said it was a civil matter. 

He said the guard seemed a bit indifferent with him and said that they could get a warrant(?) to get the info needed to confirm whether there was a crime committed, then changed his mind and told him to go back to his solicitor and get him to get a court order for discovery(?). His solicitor has said that this would cost thousands and that it's a criminal matter and the guards should investigate.
So has my friend got any options open to him to get this matter settled?

(Sorry if the terminology is incorrect but i'm not 100% certain of the words he used)


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## mf1 (14 Jan 2011)

What is the case about? Nothing you have posted gives any real clue as to what you are talking about.

mf


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## chasm (14 Jan 2011)

Sorry, the case relates to a suspected fraud,(obtaining money by  deception?),his solicitor has said the guards may not wish to  investigate as it is a low amount involved. 
He's filled me in on the details and showed me what documents he has and  to me it looks likely he was conned. Unfortunately for him the one  piece of evidence he needs to prove it cannot be obtained except by  warrant/court order. But as i said  his solicitor has said that it is  very expensive and that as it appears to be fraud, which is a criminal  offence, it is up to the guards to investigate.


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## onq (14 Jan 2011)

Would this not be something for the Criminal Assets Bureau to investigate, or the Irish Fraud Bureau?



You solicitor should advise you on this matter.

ONQ.


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## chasm (16 Jan 2011)

I doubt it would be a matter for either of those two to be honest, if it involves too little amount for the guards to be bothered i very much doubt CAB would interested either. 

I had a look at the IFB site, or what little i can get up on it, i doubt they would be able to help in this case either. They state on their site that  
"The IFB is solely dedicated to the prevention                                     of financial crime, providing a range of fraud                                     prevention services to its members"

His solicitor has advised him- he feels it is a criminal case and the guards should investigate it.


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## onq (17 Jan 2011)

To take this thread from the vague to the slightly more accurate;

1. If you know, what is the lowest limit the Gardaí/CAB?Frud Squad will investigate when it comes to fraud?
2. What is the order of the theft - not interested in the specific amount - is it tens, hundreds, thousands of Euro?
3. If the other party is a professional of some sort, is there a representative body to which complaints can be directed?

ONQ.


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## chasm (17 Jan 2011)

onq said:


> To take this thread from the vague to the slightly more accurate;
> 
> 1. If you know, what is the lowest limit the Gardaí/CAB?Frud Squad will investigate when it comes to fraud?
> 2. What is the order of the theft - not interested in the specific amount - is it tens, hundreds, thousands of Euro?
> ...



Sorry, i thought i had mentioned the amount in the first post( forgot i had to rewrite it after my network dropped and must have forgotten to put it in)
The amount involved is hundreds of euros.

I don't "know" what the limit is that the gardai/CAB/IFB will investigate but as i said the guard told my friend it was a civil matter and and whan my friend went back to his solicitor and told him this, his solicitor remained adamant that it a criminal matter and said they may not wish to investigate because of the amount involved- so i'm sure if the gardaí think it's too little to investigate i doubt CAB would be interested. (That's just our opinion)

The other person is not a professional, so unfortunately that isn't an option.

Thanks ONQ


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## onq (17 Jan 2011)

No problem chasm.

Its hard to help when you don't know the scale of the issues involved.

I have written off debts of up to €10,000 based on legal advice received.
I am not that flush and it hurt me a lot - I'm still feeling it, but that's the game.
The possibility of losing and paying the other sides legal fees plus your own looms large.

I would chalk this up to experience, warn others to keep clear of him in some way that doesn't defame, and move on.

ONQ.


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## chasm (27 Jan 2011)

TBH i don't think it's about the money anymore i think it's more to do with seeing justice done. Unfortunately justice comes with a price tag though!

If it was me i think i would like to see it through too, so i can see where he is coming from- and the same as him i cannot understand how the guards can say it's one thing and the solicitor can say it is another and he is left in limbo.


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## Bronte (27 Jan 2011)

So we are talking about less than 1K?  How much has the solicitor cost so far?  To go to court to get a particular document would cost thousands.  What is the particular document, is it a forged cheque?

If it is a criminal matter and the guards should be involved, which I don't know, then your friend can send a letter by registered post to the gardai, and then they will have to reply in writing, which means if they ought to pursue it then they are more likely to do so if they have a letter.  But really I don't think the time of the gardai should be wasted on amounts such as 1K unless the 'thief' has been doing it over and over.


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## Mpsox (27 Jan 2011)

Is there an option here to bring a claim via the Small Claims Court?. I'll stand corrected on this, but I thought the limit there was raised to €2k this month.


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## onq (28 Jan 2011)

chasm said:


> TBH i don't think it's about the money anymore i think it's more to do with seeing justice done. Unfortunately justice comes with a price tag though!
> 
> If it was me i think i would like to see it through too, so i can see where he is coming from- and the same as him i cannot understand how the guards can say it's one thing and the solicitor can say it is another and he is left in limbo.


 
You're digging into this, not letting go, and if you and your friend are feeding off one another and not seeing this for the potential money black hole it could turn into, you may be doing him/her a disservice in the long run.

I spoke of one reason I was reluctant to pursue someone [costs and fees], but there is another.
The real downside is that preparing a legal case can take over your life. You think about it endlessly, worry about the possible outcomes, the preparation of your legal argument the temprament of the judge on the day, everything.

The one concern I have for your friend above all others is the conflicting advice he has been given - he urgently needs to see if that is just a once-off musunderstanding or if its correct
If I was him I would be seeking a second opinion on the detailed facts of the case and how it should be handled.
BTW, presenting the details here is not advised and I am not asking you to do this - this is a pubic forum and could prejudice the outcome of the case.

Think about it - how clear cut can the case be when a solicitor and a Garda cannot agree on how to proceed?

As for "justice" - it can be manufactured in small quantities, but its not something that grows on trees - it costs a lot and sometimes turns out to be something quite different that what you had been led to expect.

Walk away, but if you do decide to proceed, consider posting the outcome here.



ONQ.


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## huskerdu (28 Jan 2011)

I agree with ONQ.

From the conflicting advice that he has been given it sounds like it should be a criminal case, but the Garda or Gardai that the victim complained to, declined to take it seriously, probably because the amount was small, or their opinion was that the case was weak, and the DPP would not be interested. 

I would advise going back to the Gardai, to a more senior Garda, insist on making a formal complaint and ask for a clear reason why the Gardai will not investigate the matter and send a file to the DPP. If the Gardai give a clear reason why they will not investigate, and are adamant that they will not, then the only route your friend has, is a civil case, and they need to  weigh up the pros and cons of proceeding.


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## chasm (11 Feb 2011)

huskerdu said:


> I agree with ONQ.
> 
> From the conflicting advice that he has been given it sounds like it should be a criminal case, but the Garda or Gardai that the victim complained to, declined to take it seriously, probably because the amount was small, or their opinion was that the case was weak, and the DPP would not be interested.
> 
> I would advise going back to the Gardai, to a more senior Garda, insist on making a formal complaint and ask for a clear reason why the Gardai will not investigate the matter and send a file to the DPP. If the Gardai give a clear reason why they will not investigate, and are adamant that they will not, then the only route your friend has, is a civil case, and they need to  weigh up the pros and cons of proceeding.



He made a complaint/statement and they took some documents off him, some of which were originals. He has returned to the station since and they are saying there is no record on their computer of a statement being taken- he can't remember the guards name that took the statement which doesnt help matters!


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## onq (12 Feb 2011)

I think someone is pulling your leg here or else there is something very fishy about all this.

Who would give original documents to a Garda without making a record of it or demanding a receipt or even record his name?

And what Garda would fail to give a receipt?

ONQ.


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## chasm (12 Feb 2011)

onq said:


> I think someone is pulling your leg here or else there is something very fishy about all this.
> 
> Who would give original documents to a Garda without making a record of it or demanding a receipt or even record his name?
> 
> ...



There's no leg pulling going on i assure you. 
After 3 visits to the station he now has the name of the guard who took his statement and will be taking the matter up with him. If they show no interest in investigating the matter he will be requesting a reason as to why.

The guard wrote something on the statement saying he had handed over original documents, he did NOT issue any receipt and tbh with all due respect, not everyone knows their rights in these instances and garda stations can be pretty intimidating places to be in even if you havent commited a crime.


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