# Seems I've been made the company's Safety Officer...



## vincentgav (27 Nov 2017)

Hello,

Advice here is needed. I have started working in the last 3/4 months for a small company. We do some minor mechanical and construction as part of the job, although this isn't my role. My role is as an admin to the Dept Manager.

The company director is known for haphazard behaviour and unpredictability. For example, he'd ask random questions (it seems) to catch you out/challenge you and mumble when you don't have an answer. (example; 'Where are the guys today' - which guys...? Sorry?) He often loses his head and doesn't know how to get the best out of people. He's also paranoid and doesn't trust anyone. (He assumes everyone either; isn't to be trusted/out to get him/a piece of sh1te). VERY toxic environment, he's always shouting at people and abusing staff, always giving out about pointless arguments with low level staff. (Cuts hours from a guy, guy obv isn't happy, descends into a row. Ludicrous. Can't be the bigger person ever, ALWAYS bothered by people's issues, however justified their issues may be) My colleagues are silent & despondant when he arrives in.

The point is, he's the kind of person to do the above and he's just announced in an email re: H&S to c. 8 people that I am the company's H&S officer. I was not made aware of this before, nor am I qualified for this role.

I didn't reply to this email. I don't wish to acknowledge this email or 'position' as I haven't agreed to take on this role. I HAVE agreed to help organise staff H&S training, but that's it - they get sent to training courses that I book.

I'm very wary of this as I'm worried I could be liable in some way, should there be an accident. There was already a bad accident here since I joined although this was outside my remit at that time. (Couldn't trust boss not to dump blame should same arise in future - anything possible with this person)

Advice would be appreciated on the following;

- Can I just be made responsible for this without my consent/agreement?
- Is the company's safety officer liable in any way for any accident that could present itself?
- Should I just take this as a red flag and move on to another role before I'm liable? (didn't want to take this responsibility on)


As above, this seems like a dealbreaker potentially for me, on top of the above.

Thanks for reading.


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## cremeegg (27 Nov 2017)

Yes, yes and yes.

If people have been informed that you are the H&S officer, then unless you do something significant about it, you would probably be considered as such in the event of any HSA investigation.

A H&S officer would be the first person looked at in the event of an accident. Have you got method statements in place for each activity. If not why not.

You could look at helping out your boss by considering what might be a better solution to the need for a H&S officer. Perhaps an outside firm of consultants could be used in that role.

Mechanical and construction work is dangerous, there will be more accidents.


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## Bronte (27 Nov 2017)

My advice to you is this.  Check out how many people had your job before you.  How long they lasted.  And what happened to the last H&S guy.


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## vincentgav (27 Nov 2017)

Thanks for your reply. 

We're currently using a H&S Consultancy to have our Method Statements & Safety Statements done up. That said, they haven't mentioned whether or not they'll be the acting Safety Officer. I don't think that they will be.

I haven't agreed to this 'position' or to take on these responsibilities. Imagine an accident happened and I'm there in court like a hapless face with no clue about all this. No H&S qualification at all.

Am I being overly suspicious or am I being potentially scapegoated here?


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## vincentgav (27 Nov 2017)

It seems there wasn't a Health & Safety officer before me. The consultants mentioned 'personal liability', then since this email was sent stating I was H&S Officer alarm bells are going off in my head.


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## Bronte (27 Nov 2017)

What were you hired to do?


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## vincentgav (27 Nov 2017)

cremeegg said:


> Yes, yes and yes.



So the company director can make anyone they want the H&S officer without their consent or agreement, they must comply and there's no recourse? Add to in the event of an accident, that H&S officer is liable?


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## vincentgav (27 Nov 2017)

Bronte said:


> What were you hired to do?



Dept Administrator.


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## lledlledlled (27 Nov 2017)

vincentgav said:


> Hello,
> 
> Advice here is needed. I have started working in the last 3/4 months for a small company. We do some minor mechanical and construction as part of the job, although this isn't my role. My role is as an admin to the Dept Manager.
> 
> ...



There are loads of vacancies in the Construction Industry at the moment. If this place has a toxic atmosphere, then look elsewhere. Life is too short to work for idiots like this guy. 
New Year, New Start.


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## aristotle (27 Nov 2017)

Expanding your role and taking on more responsibility = increase salary ?


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## vincentgav (27 Nov 2017)

aristotle said:


> Expanding your role and taking on more responsibility = increase salary ?



I wish that was the case, but it's not. First it was getting the men safety trained, which I agreed to, obviously. I was told;

'You're driving this' (Safety Training) -  No real issue here.

It was the email sent around stating that I was the Safety Officer. Just saw it Friday evening, said nothing, went home.

It's not something I agreed to. I think it's him pawning off the responsibility/liability on to me. But seriously, imagine me under cross-examination. 'Dunno what CSCS means..'

Is this something that I can say I don't wish to do? Obv only there a few months, don't want my 'attitude' to be questioned.

Thank you all for your replies, it's appeciated.


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## Buddyboy (27 Nov 2017)

Or maybe ask to be put on a H&S course, get certified/qualified, and put it on your CV?

If he says no to the course - get it in writing/email (and put out your cv).


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## Purple (28 Nov 2017)

You, along with the director(s) are criminally liable in the event of an accident.

If you don’t want to do the job or don’t feel you are able to do it then don’t do it.


Read through your safety Statement/Safety manual. Have all risks been identified? Have all risks been assessed? Do you have an anti-bullying statement and all the other things that are legally required? In short is this just a fig leaf to look to comply with legislation or is it a serious attempt at creating and sustaining a safety culture within the workplace?


Spend some time on the HSA website. Read what’s required but concentrate on the section on the Safety, Health and Welfare at work Act. 

IBEC run courses for newly appointed Safety Officers. Do that or another course.


If you get any push-back from your boss then don’t take the job.
Unless you get a pay rise then don’t take the job.

It’s not about the money, it’s about the value your boss puts on the role. If he won’t pay for it then it has no value in his eyes and you are just a human shield in case of an accident.


Do it properly or don’t do it at all. If it doubt then opt for the latter.

Remember that if you are effectively complicit in maintaining bogus safety procedures then you are also complicit in putting lives at risk and could, rightly, be held to account for that. 

The bottom line is that you already know the answer to the questions you've posted here.
The advice given above is good; leave and get a job elsewhere if you can.


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## vincentgav (28 Nov 2017)

Purple said:


> You, along with the director(s) are criminally liable in the event of an accident.
> 
> If you don’t want to do the job or don’t feel you are able to do it then don’t do it.
> 
> ...




Yeah, that's true. I guess it's just something I thought in my head I could try evade or avert. But this guy won't take kindly to me asking for another €10k on salary for this or for me refusing to do it. He's the kind of person that would (obviously) rip his staff off. That's how I see this situation. Opportunistic, but that's what I'm dealing with here.

My options really are;

A.) Reject H&S position and realise that I'll have to find another job as the relationship there, such as it is, will be ruined. He won't take it well. Not a great option.

B.) Ask for substantially more cash to do the role, ask for proper training and embrace it. That's pretty daunting to me, but option A isn't really an option. It's just walking away. 

Leaving aside the fact I'm personally offended that he thinks I'm so thick (as stated in first post) as to not cop what he was doing. Trying to get more for less. That should be telling regarding your question about a fig leaf or a genuine attempt at creating a H&S scheme. I think that leaf may be a bit too small for me, harr harr, 

Thanks again for the answer, all of you, I appreciate your taking the time for a stranger.


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## Purple (28 Nov 2017)

You don't need €10k extra. Look for 4 and settle for 2. As I said, it#'s not about the money.
Do insist on the training. Tell him that he is asking you to be jointly criminally liable with him for accidents in the company. Ask him if he'd do it in your position. You won't get an answer, just verbally attacked. Ignore it, it's just wind. After the bluster and shouting give him time to think about it and then ask him again. You might get an answer then.


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## vincentgav (28 Nov 2017)

Purple said:


> You don't need €10k extra. Look for 4 and settle for 2. As I said, it#'s not about the money.
> Do insist on the training. Tell him that he is asking you to be jointly criminally liable with him for accidents in the company. Ask him if he'd do it in your position. You won't get an answer, just verbally attacked. Ignore it, it's just wind. After the bluster and shouting give him time to think about it and then ask him again. You might get an answer then.



Not sure about that figure. This is a lot of work and not the course of professional work that I intended upon, I'd want an increase to get on board with it. 

Xmas is coming, we'll see how he handles the next few weeks in the run up. It's all the other workplace related details that factor in for me here too.


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## vincentgav (29 Nov 2017)

Is there any real legal difference between 'Safety Officer' and 'Safety Co-Ordinator'?

Are they one & the same in the eyes of the law?


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## Purple (29 Nov 2017)

vincentgav said:


> Is there any real legal difference between 'Safety Officer' and 'Safety Co-Ordinator'?
> 
> Are they one & the same in the eyes of the law?


Read [broken link removed] from arthurcox.com.


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## Bronte (30 Nov 2017)

vincentgav said:


> Dept Administrator.




Is this a secretarial type role.  Could you tell us what kind of work you were hired to do.  And what would be expected of you as H&S officer.  And in other companies what the H&S role implies, for example does it carry responsiblities, a highter salary, better qualifications, specific qualifications in H&S.


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## Purple (30 Nov 2017)

Bronte said:


> Is this a secretarial type role. Could you tell us what kind of work you were hired to do. And what would be expected of you as H&S officer.


I wouldn't like to be the in a situation where the HSA and Gardai were deciding whether I had a secretarial type role or was effectively in charge of Health and Safety with a view to whether I should face criminal charges or not.


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## Deiseblue (30 Nov 2017)

Would it not make sense to approach the H & S consultancy firm currently employed by the company & advise them that you have been arbitrarily appointed safety officer.

You should point out that you obviously never consented to this appointment as even if you were consulted you are woefully short of experience & training in this area .

Hopefully such action would colour the consultants approach to your boss.

Is there any Union to whom you could turn ? - although judging by what management seem to be able to get away with it would appear not


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## LS400 (30 Nov 2017)

A lot of scare mongering going on here,

Its a small company, probably does not have resources to Hr departments etc...
I see your roll as more H&S contact. Full stop. You are working in the admin section, embrace it. You agreed to help organise the training, if I were you boss, I would have also assumed you the position of H&S officer/contact.

You could spend all day splitting hairs about this roll, I know its not pandering to you, but its how I see it.


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## cremeegg (30 Nov 2017)

LS400 said:


> A lot of scare mongering going on here,



I really don't think so.

There *will* be future accidents, thats in the nature of mechanical contracting.

In the event of an investigation the HSA *will* ask who the safety officer is.

An email circulated to all staff announcing that the OP is the safety officer will carry some weight.


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## DeeKie (1 Dec 2017)

LS400 said:


> A lot of scare mongering going on here,
> 
> Its a small company, probably does not have resources to Hr departments etc...
> I see your roll as more H&S contact. Full stop. You are working in the admin section, embrace it. You agreed to help organise the training, if I were you boss, I would have also assumed you the position of H&S officer/contact.
> ...


Terrible advice- the law in this area gives you personal liability and there has been a bad accident in the company already. Act now. None of this wait and see malarkey. An accident could happen today.


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## Leo (1 Dec 2017)

You can see the list of HSA prosecutions under the Safety, Health and Welfare at Work Act 2005 (guide to the act here.)  These are criminal proceedings, not to be treated lightly.


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## LS400 (1 Dec 2017)

You cant as an employer, just make somebody Safety Officer, and exonerate all, bar this person for any issues that arise.   It would be like making some one an Airline Pilot and saying now go fly a plane.

A H&S contact, completely different. I believe its lost on the wording.


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## Leo (1 Dec 2017)

LS400 said:


> You cant as an employer, just make somebody Safety Officer, and exonerate all, bar this person for any issues that arise.   It would be like making some one an Airline Pilot and saying now go fly a plane.



That's true, but the assigned person does inherit personal liability with the [broken link removed].  They won't be solely liable, but that's likely of little consolation.


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## Slaps16 (2 Dec 2017)

To appoint someone as H&S officer without consultation & training by their employer says more about the employer than the employee. This role is a minefield, in the event of an accident. The HSA will disect everything, if a prosecution should happen then directors would be in the firing line as they made an appointment within their own company without due process to train the individual to do a job that carries great responsibility. If the person feels they are not competent to do the job then ask the employer how they arrived at the conclusion that you are indeed competent to do the job. Competence = Training, Knowledge and experience.


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## Purple (4 Dec 2017)

Slaps16 said:


> To appoint someone as H&S officer without consultation & training by their employer says more about the employer than the employee. This role is a minefield, in the event of an accident. The HSA will disect everything, if a prosecution should happen then directors would be in the firing line as they made an appointment within their own company without due process to train the individual to do a job that carries great responsibility. If the person feels they are not competent to do the job then ask the employer how they arrived at the conclusion that you are indeed competent to do the job. Competence = Training, Knowledge and experience.


I agree but there is no legal requirement for minimum training or qualifications to be a safety officer (unlike, say, an airline pilot). 
We have trained First Aid staff, people trained on how to use our defibrillator, people trained as fire marshals etc. but no specific training for the Safety Officer.


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## Marion (4 Dec 2017)

*What is a competent person?




*
According to the Safety, Health and Welfare at Work Act 2005, a person is deemed to be a competent person where, having regard to the task he or she is required to perform and taking account of the size or hazards (or both of them) of the undertaking or establishment in which he or she undertakes work, the person possesses sufficient training, experience and knowledge appropriate to the nature of the work to be undertaken.


http://www.hsa.ie/eng/Topics/Managi...t_and_Risk_Assessment/#Whatisacompetentperson



Marion


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## Slaps16 (4 Dec 2017)

Specific training is one thing, being deemed competent by your employer without training being provided is crazy, absolutely crazy and I would resist this role at all costs. However that's easy for me to say sitting here.


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## vincentgav (13 Feb 2018)

A long time since an update, I know, but here's one;  I quit.

There were more things that cropped up, he told me to dock pay from staff who didn't fill in Risk Assessment forms, etc and to inform them of same. (illegal madness) That was the final straw, I just got a new job and ran off. 

Thank you all for your advice, it was what I needed.


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## Thirsty (13 Feb 2018)

Good decision. Glad things worked out.


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## Purple (13 Feb 2018)

Yep, good decision Vincent. There are plenty of jobs out there that don't come with that sort of baggage.


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## Seagull (13 Feb 2018)

Forget the baggage. I'd be more worried about the criminal record likely to result from working for someone that bad.


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## Purple (13 Feb 2018)

Seagull said:


> Forget the baggage. I'd be more worried about the criminal record likely to result from working for someone that bad.


That's what I was talking about.


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