# Household Charge



## DublinTexas (2 Jan 2012)

So it’s 2nd of January and 2 things come to mind about the new household charge

Nowhere to pay
I can’t pay this charge anywhere, Fingal Council does not have any information or webpage where I can pay, neither the Department of the environment. I like to pay my taxes early. Incompetence.

I’m using more water
I always tried to minimize my water usage. 
I never let it run when brushing teeth or shaving. I don’t flush like a mad person and I can’t remember the last time I filled up the bath fully.
But in the last 2 days I noticed that I’m now using more water just because “now that I have to pay for it I want it”.
I run a 1/2 full washing machine and I caught myself having the water run while brushing teeth.
Horrible, I would like to thank another incompetent government for screwing with my mind and making me waste a natural resource. What for a weak mind I sometime have.


----------



## Knuttell (2 Jan 2012)

DublinTexas said:


> Horrible, I would like to thank another incompetent government for screwing with my mind and making me waste a natural resource.



Fine Gael are not to blame they are trying to fix an economy so badly broken that we have the IMF in.

Fianna Fail is the party you should be angry at for "where we are",hopefully they will never again be afforded the opportunity to ruin our economy so badly that we must pay a tax to live in our own bloody house.


----------



## micmclo (2 Jan 2012)

Jack Lynch and Fianna Fáil abolish local rates for housholders 
Fine Gael introduce them


----------



## rustbucket (2 Jan 2012)

micmclo said:


> Jack Lynch and Fianna Fáil abolish local rates for housholders
> Fine Gael introduce them



I dont really think they had a choice. Possibly foolish to have abolished them in the first place?


----------



## micmclo (2 Jan 2012)

The old system was a mess with exemptions and waivers and valuations and you paying twice what your neighbour paid and the next guy over paid nothing due the way his land was designated

They just straight out abolished it

Given a few years this household charge will descend into the same mess


----------



## Ancutza (2 Jan 2012)

> Fine Gael are not to blame they are trying to fix an economy so badly broken that we have the IMF in.



Let's get this absolutely straight.  The Irish government, with and at the behest of their mates in Brussels, is making sure that the bankers who went to the races and lost their shirts get to go home with their shirts back on their backs, dry cleaned and freshly pressed.  Every man, woman, child, dog and cat in Ireland is going to pay for years and years for them.

Unfortunately I think the wheels are going to come off this one big time, meaning the european project as a whole, and we are going to end up with a heap of problems which make an punt nua and its value irrelevant.

If the euro fails then so too will the EU.  After all Europe has had an historic problem of living with the germans in charge.  The french are full of their own self-importance but are actually a joke.  The UK has already repositioned itself along its traditional german-sceptic axis.

What do we think will happen over here in my neck of the woods (the Balkans) if the whole thing unravels?  Alot of countries over here are just about on speaking terms because of their joint membership of the EU or their hope to join the club.  Not 2 years ago the romanian president told the hungarian president that he was welcome to attend celebrations of hungarian national day in the predominantly ethnic-hungarian counties of Covasna and Harghita but that if he used a hungarian airforce jet to do it (as was proposed) he'd be shot down!  The Serbs are hacked off about the Kosovo situation but they're being nice about it because of the attraction of the Brussels gravy-train.  Both the Romanians and the Bulgarians have unfinished business with Turkey. No one cares much for the Albanians

The mind boggles really........


----------



## DublinTexas (2 Jan 2012)

Fina Fail, Fine Gael, Greens, who cares, all the same to me. I don't care who missmanges the country, I just have to pay taxes here.

I finaly managed to find the offical webpage on:

www.HouseholdCharge.ie

Yes, that simple, now why did I had to bing it instead of it being on the goverments websites?

Anyhow, up to run myself a bath now because I pay for water now, so I want to use is.


----------



## Knuttell (2 Jan 2012)

Ancutza said:


> Let's get this absolutely straight.  The Irish government, with and at the behest of their mates in Brussels, is making sure that the bankers who went to the races and lost their shirts get to go home with their shirts back on their backs, dry cleaned and freshly pressed.  Every man, woman, child, dog and cat in Ireland is going to pay for years and years for them.
> 
> Unfortunately I think the wheels are going to come off this one big time, meaning the european project as a whole, and we are going to end up with a heap of problems which make an punt nua and its value irrelevant.
> 
> ...



My original point stills stands,Fine Gael did not mismanage the Country to the point where we are bankrupt,that was the point I was making nothing more nothing less.


----------



## amtc (3 Jan 2012)

Thanks for the link to the Household Charge. I decided to register (just as I don't like not paying bills)

Put in my password - which was in the approved format - and got a (personal name) email from someone who had an out of office reply as being away until 18 Feb...! WHAT?! 

There is no way I am paying this now.


----------



## DublinTexas (3 Jan 2012)

amtc said:


> Thanks for the link to the Household Charge. I decided to register (just as I don't like not paying bills)
> 
> Put in my password - which was in the approved format - and got a (personal name) email from someone who had an out of office reply as being away until 18 Feb...! WHAT?!
> 
> There is no way I am paying this now.


 
_And here is Luceys law proven, blaming the public sector starts!_

I had the same, now what is this suposed to be, a joke?

I try to pay my charges forced on me by a useless goverment (imagine the money we could save if we just install a governour of the german empire instead of our joke of a cabinet) and my goverments representative tells me that he's out of the office until the 18 of Feburary.

I demand that the real masters of this country install a governour and bring some of their paperwork pushing skills over.


----------



## Bill Struth (3 Jan 2012)

I just called one of the numbers on the website to see if my estate qualifies for an exemption (it doesn't ), and the lady told me that the full list of exempt estates will be published later this week. Category 3 and 4 estates are exempt apparently.


----------



## Ancutza (3 Jan 2012)

> My original point stills stands,Fine Gael did not mismanage the Country  to the point where we are bankrupt,that was the point I was making  nothing more nothing less.



Yes and I agree with you.  I do, however, think that Fine Gael are playing their hand in Europe in a most inept fashion.


----------



## oldnick (3 Jan 2012)

DublinTexas - what do you mean you're now paying for water use?


----------



## PetrolHead (3 Jan 2012)

oldnick said:


> DublinTexas - what do you mean you're now paying for water use?



That's just the question I was going to ask...



[broken link removed]



> What will the household charge finance?
> Revenues from the household charge will support the provision of local services. Internationally, local services are administered by local authorities and financed by local service charges. In Ireland, local authorities are responsible for, among other services, fire and emergency services, maintenance and cleaning of streets, street lighting, planning and development services, public parks, libraries, open spaces and leisure facilities, etc. These are essential local services which benefit all members of the public, including business.


----------



## DublinTexas (3 Jan 2012)

oldnick said:


> DublinTexas - what do you mean you're now paying for water use?


 
That teaches me.. I somehow was under the impression this household charge was there to pay for my water too.

Obviously that is not the case, it's there to support my local council and their work.

So I will reduce my water usage now and try to get more usage out of my council. I just need to find out what usefull they actualy do that I could use. I mean I have never seen them cleaning my street, the burned out lamp in my estate is not repaired since month, the green area is only usedy by council workers for tea breaks and to hide from work and waiste is long chargable anyhow (and gone to a private company).

In any case, paid 100€ for whatever our overlords think they need the 100€ for.


----------



## The_Banker (3 Jan 2012)

DublinTexas said:


> That teaches me.. I somehow was under the impression this household charge was there to pay for my water too.
> 
> Obviously that is not the case, it's there to support my local council and their work.
> 
> ...


 
I don’t think the local councils will be getting any extra money now that the household charge has been introduced.

The household charge will merely replace funding that was previously provided for by the government, thus saving the government money which they will send to the troika.


----------



## DerKaiser (3 Jan 2012)

The_Banker said:


> thus saving the government money which they will send to the troika.


 
I think we're still a long way off sending money to anyone, just borrowing a little less than we did last year.

Those devious Europeans making us reduce our annual sponging.......


----------



## The_Banker (3 Jan 2012)

DerKaiser said:


> I think we're still a long way off sending money to anyone, just borrowing a little less than we did last year.
> 
> Those devious Europeans making us reduce our annual sponging.......


 

Ultimately it will have to go back to them. One way or another.


----------



## Purple (3 Jan 2012)

The_Banker said:


> Ultimately it will have to go back to them. One way or another.



Yes, people who lend money usually want it back. 

This is especially the case when they lend it at about one third of what the market rate should be.


On the bright side if we told them all to get stuffed and saved ourselves €60 billion by not repaying any of our banking debt we’d then have to borrow money on the open market. That would probably be at interest rates somewhere between 12-15%. The ECB would probably cut their line of credit to our central bank (€100 billion at 1%) since we would have cause the European banking system to collapse. 
Basically over a period of 5 years we’d be much worse off.

If I thought that all I’d have to pay extra was this €100 I’d be delighted but I can see my after tax household income drop by thousands again this year.


----------



## so-crates (3 Jan 2012)

amtc said:


> Thanks for the link to the Household Charge. I decided to register (just as I don't like not paying bills)
> 
> Put in my password - which was in the approved format - and got a (personal name) email from someone who had an out of office reply as being away until 18 Feb...! WHAT?!
> 
> There is no way I am paying this now.



Classic  probably one of the test users or even (terribly) one of the developers! Joined up and got a proper email response not from any named individual ... on holidays or otherwise. Seems they noticed the blip pretty quickly.


----------



## callybags (3 Jan 2012)

I joined and got a normal email as well.

I logged in a bit later to pay and it told me there was no balance due for my address!!


----------



## Purple (3 Jan 2012)

Signed up and paid.


----------



## Ancutza (3 Jan 2012)

> Signed up and paid.



Well done you!


----------



## DerKaiser (3 Jan 2012)

Purple said:


> Signed up and paid.


 
Fair play - the law abiding majority should make it perfectly clear that we recognise the powers we have invested in our democratically elected government.

I will pay in the next few weeks, not brave enough (in terms of a fear of system glitches and subsequent admin hassles) to pay on the first day!


----------



## oldnick (3 Jan 2012)

To those posters asking what are these charges for - the council charges are there for a very good reason - to pay the hundreds if not thousands of council employees, most especially those that sit in offices all day and shuffle paper. 
The most important of these employees are those in planning departments whose numbers have hardly diminished in the last few years despite the lack of  building ,whether properties or roads, and despite the almost total lack of major planning applications.
So let's pay up and keep these essential people in safe ,secure,pensionable employment !


----------



## DB74 (4 Jan 2012)

Is anyone else having trouble logging in to the site?


----------



## micmclo (4 Jan 2012)

Like the TV license the easiest way to get out of the system is never to get on the system in the first place. Once you are registered they have you forever

Wait for the council to contact you and don't do their registration work for them

As said they have plenty of staff. Would give the planning staff something useful to do.




oldnick said:


> To those posters asking what are these charges for - the council charges are there for a very good reason - to pay the hundreds if not thousands of council employees, most especially those that sit in offices all day and shuffle paper.



Don't forget, taxpayers and ratepayers need to send the councillors to New York or Boston or Chicago or whereever for St Patricks Day.
I don't have an issue with senior ministers doing it, Ireland needs to sell and promote

And I'll maybe allow the councillors to go though is this not the job of the IDA?
But they bring their wives and husbands and expect the public to pay for their junket. 

Sinn Féin for all their faults don't have their councillors getting involved in this, fair play


----------



## DerKaiser (4 Jan 2012)

micmclo said:


> Wait for the council to contact you and don't do their registration work for them
> 
> As said they have plenty of staff. Would give the planning staff something useful to do.


If we all register correctly (takes 5 mins) it removes the need for inefficient bureaucracy.  The more of this type of thing that's automated the more transparent the work actually done in the public sector becomes.  

The public have a responsibility to be efficient in their dealings with the public service.

The "I'm paying for it, so I sure as hell am going to get my money's worth through wasting time and resources" attitude is counter productive.


----------



## Purple (4 Jan 2012)

DerKaiser said:


> The public have a responsibility to be efficient in their dealings with the public service.
> 
> The "I'm paying for it, so I sure as hell am going to get my money's worth through wasting time and resources" attitude is counter productive.



+1 to that.


----------



## Sunny (4 Jan 2012)

I will pay it but there is a genuine question that needs to be asked in that what exactly are we paying for? They say we pay for the following: Fire and emergency services; maintenance and cleaning of streets; planning and development; public parks; street lighting; libraries; open spaces and leisure amenities.

Fire & Emgerency servies should be paid for out of tax revenue just like we pay for the Gardai and Public Hospitals. 
Maintenance, cleaning of streets and street lighting: I live in a managed estate so already pay for maintenance and street lighting. So left with street cleaners. 
Libraries and leisure amenities should be paid for by the users. (probably cheaper to give everyone a kindle than run some libaries). We have no library or public amenity in my area so not sure what I am paying for.
Planning & Devlopement: Please, after the performance of the last decade, I am expected to pay for this!!  
I actually don't mind paying for the parks because to be fair to my local authority, I think the Parks Division does a wonderful job.


----------



## PaddyW (4 Jan 2012)

Signed up today for it, took a while though, site seemed very slow. I'll pay it out my next pay packet. Can't wait.. NOT!


----------



## blueband (4 Jan 2012)

no intention of paying so i dont care how slow the site is.


----------



## werner (5 Jan 2012)

Knuttell said:


> My original point stills stands,Fine Gael did not mismanage the Country to the point where we are bankrupt,that was the point I was making nothing more nothing less.


 
By following the exact same policies in paying off all of the non-secured bondholders etc coupled with the worst form of economic mis-management (increase VAT in a recession! USC charges taxing an average of €1,400 out of average pockets and they say they have not increased taxes!) they are continuing to destroy the economy. You cannot tax your way out of a recession. 

FG & Labour have lost any electoral mandate they had as they have utterley reneged on all of their pre-election fibs and are now zero difference to the previous shower!


----------



## cork (5 Jan 2012)

Sunny said:


> I will pay it but there is a genuine question that needs to be asked in that what exactly are we paying for? .




This government is sitting on a report on how .5 billion can be saved by rationalisation of local government.

Instead of tackling waste - this government is inflicting slelth taxes on the population.

We really don't need over 100 local authorities.

But we have a government that is inflicted by cowardice.


----------



## Purple (5 Jan 2012)

werner said:


> By following the exact same policies in paying off all of the non-secured bondholders etc coupled with the worst form of economic mis-management (increase VAT in a recession! USC charges taxing an average of €1,400 out of average pockets and they say they have not increased taxes!) they are continuing to destroy the economy. You cannot tax your way out of a recession.



Do you think we can borrow our way out of a recession?
We have the worst exchequer deficit in the developed world. Even if we can get growth to 3% (which would be next to impossible) we’d still have to cut spending by €3-€5 billion a year for the next 4-5 years just to reduce our deficit to a manageable amount. Add to that the fact that we need to come up with €7 billion a year just to pay the interest on what we’ve already borrowed.
We could always tell everyone to get stuffed and not repay anything but then we’ve have to borrow €20 billion a year at 12-15%, there’d be a massive outflow of capital from the country (bigger than the one we have already) and our banks would collapse again. In other words we have no choice but to do what we are doing. The dye was cast between 2001 and 2007. Everything that came after was almost inevitable. 

Bottom line; our wealth and resulting lifestyles for the last 15 years were an illusion, funded by money that we didn’t have. We’re on the long hard road back to reality. More taxes, less money, more poverty, fewer services, bigger classes in schools, more people dying because of inefficiencies and misallocation of resources in the healthcare system etc.


----------



## werner (5 Jan 2012)

Purple said:


> Do you think we can borrow our way out of a recession?
> .


 
Nor do I believe in an inequitable regressive taxation system that penalises the poorest and lowest income earner being foisted on the public with no electoral mandate by FG & Labour.

The money raised is being used to pay off unsecured bond holders etc

There are numerous fair ways to garner taxes by using a fair progressive taxation system to raise revenue rather than in the unfair manner that the new stealth taxes/poll taxes are being used


----------



## elefantfresh (5 Jan 2012)

I don't have a problem with a property tax (in theory) assuming the money is spent locally. What I have a problem with is the fact that I paid stamp duty at the time of purchase. If this were to be offset until it was reached, I think I could live with that.


----------



## Purple (5 Jan 2012)

werner said:


> Nor do I believe in an inequitable regressive taxation system that penalises the poorest and lowest income earner being foisted on the public with no electoral mandate by FG & Labour.
> 
> The money raised is being used to pay off unsecured bond holders etc
> 
> There are numerous fair ways to garner taxes by using a fair progressive taxation system to raise revenue rather than in the unfair manner that the new stealth taxes/poll taxes are being used


By EU standards we are still under taxed. High earners are slightly under taxed and low earners are more under taxed. Our system currently disproportionately penalises high earners, not low earners. 
If we are looking to cut spending I’d tax children’s allowance (which currently costs the state €2.5 billion a year) and I’d replace the public service pension levy with a comparable pay cut so that retired public servants take the cut as well (screwing young public servants with large mortgages and childcare costs while leaving their former colleagues untouched is disgraceful). Whatever happens we’ll all be paying more taxes and getting less in return in the years to come.


----------



## ninsaga (5 Jan 2012)

Sunny said:


> I will pay it but there is a genuine question that needs to be asked in that what exactly are we paying for? They say we pay for the following: Fire and emergency services; maintenance and cleaning of streets; planning and development; public parks; street lighting; libraries; open spaces and leisure amenities.
> .



Fair questions - but do you honestly thing that you are going to get a decent answer from any authority on it? ... such as... here is how much was gatherered, here is the cost of running a particular dept/services and here is how much went towards it. It will just get dumped into the slush fund along with all the other sources of revenue and used to pay*for quango's, trips, ministerial pensions, unvouched TD expenses - as well as the essential stuff like the guards, teachers, public lighting etc.

Oh and by the way everyone - its €100 this year - watch for the increases next year. It's a wonder they are not even charging VAT on it!


----------



## MeathCommute (5 Jan 2012)

blueband said:


> no intention of paying so i dont care how slow the site is.


 
You're going to have a lot of pain coming down the line so. They'll find a way to get you. I don't like it any more than you do


----------



## The_Banker (5 Jan 2012)

Purple said:


> Do you think we can borrow our way out of a recession?
> We have the worst exchequer deficit in the developed world. Even if we can get growth to 3% (which would be next to impossible) we’d still have to cut spending by €3-€5 billion a year for the next 4-5 years just to reduce our deficit to a manageable amount. Add to that the fact that we need to come up with €7 billion a year just to pay the interest on what we’ve already borrowed.
> We could always tell everyone to get stuffed and not repay anything but then we’ve have to borrow €20 billion a year at 12-15%, there’d be a massive outflow of capital from the country (bigger than the one we have already) and our banks would collapse again. In other words we have no choice but to do what we are doing. The dye was cast between 2001 and 2007. Everything that came after was almost inevitable.
> 
> Bottom line; our wealth and resulting lifestyles for the last 15 years were an illusion, funded by money that we didn’t have. We’re on the long hard road back to reality. More taxes, less money, more poverty, fewer services, bigger classes in schools, more people dying because of inefficiencies and misallocation of resources in the healthcare system etc.


 
Hard to argue with anything you say but it further copper fastens my belief that we as a country are a failed entity.


----------



## blueband (5 Jan 2012)

MeathCommute said:


> You're going to have a lot of pain coming down the line so. They'll find a way to get you. I don't like it any more than you do


i will take my chances in court, if i have to do a few weeks inside i will.
anyone that cant see that this is just the thin end of the wedge is living in dreamland!


----------



## Leo (5 Jan 2012)

blueband said:


> i will take my chances in court, if i have to do a few weeks inside i will.
> anyone that cant see that this is just the thin end of the wedge is living in dreamland!


 
How much is the conviction and few weeks inside going to cost?


----------



## DerKaiser (5 Jan 2012)

blueband said:


> i will take my chances in court, if i have to do a few weeks inside i will.
> anyone that cant see that this is just the thin end of the wedge is living in dreamland!


 
It is the thin end of the wedge, it's in the public domain that the charge is likely to be much higher in 2013. I still do not fully understand what people hope to achieve by not paying it though.

Maybe 10 people who don't intend paying it could answer the following questions:

1) Can you afford to pay it?
2) Would your preference be to replace it with
a) more borrowing?
b) other taxes (specify)?
c) spending cuts? 
d) all of the above?
3) Are you happy to pay the fine or will you either go to jail or have the money taken directly from your wage/social welfare under new legislation?
4) Are there any existing taxes you feel equally strongly against?


----------



## so-crates (5 Jan 2012)

Blueband, Thin end of what wedge? None of this is in any way surprising or unexpected and the rated charge when it comes in will likely be higher. So I am anticipating and planning for that because unlike you I can't believe it has taken this long for us to finally face up to the fact that we are not paying enough. It is the norm abroad to pay local domestic taxation of some form or another, we are unusual in the system of the government central funding being used for this. We are taxed less than other countries and as this crisis has proven, our tax basis is narrow, broadening the taxation basis and charging for services only brings us into line with other countries. We have been fooling ourselves due to a glut of cash that slugged its way through our economy and is now falling out the bottom. By all means play Don Quixote, just don't expect an enormous well of public support, most will grumble, it isn't pleasant but nor are a lot of necessary things, but few will be inclined to tilt at windmills.


----------



## The_Banker (5 Jan 2012)

Will I pay it? Yes… I am a tax payer and it is my duty. But I don’t like it.

But I might be a lot happier if I thought the money would be going to help the country rather than down the black hole that is the economic wasteland that this country is.


----------



## ninsaga (5 Jan 2012)

The_Banker said:


> Will I pay it? Yes… I am a tax payer and it is my duty. But I don’t like it.
> 
> But I might be a lot happier if I thought the money would be going to help the country rather than down the black hole that is the economic wasteland that this country is.



..and there you have it summed up nicely..... pay it because we are told to even though there is no insight as to what it will fix..... we've have the universal social charge flung on us, now this until they come up with another tax type. What's to say that in 8 months time they announce that they got it wrong - missed expected tax revenues by a few billion and need to have another tough budget....

I've over the last few years did a self build and paid massive money on stamp duty - just like many others... this is another kick in the teeth - not to mind the Planning Authority 'contributions' that they commanded also.


----------



## so-crates (5 Jan 2012)

It is pretty specific. Additional tax to plug a gigantic hole in the budget. Instead of exchequer funds going to local government this will be to cover that while we use the tax take to service the interest bill on the stupendous loans we as a country took out.


----------



## csirl (5 Jan 2012)

In the case of rented properties, why is the charge levied on the owner rather than the occupier? Its supposed to be a local authority charge paid by the people who live in the local authority and avail of the local services - it should user pays as is the case with all other local authority charges.

My understanding is that this will be replace with water charges once metering is in place - does this mean that the property owner rather than the occupier will pay the water charge? This is anti-environment as there will be no incentive on the occupier to save water as they're not paying the bill!


----------



## blueband (5 Jan 2012)

so-crates said:


> Blueband,  By all means play Don Quixote, just don't expect an enormous well of public support, most will grumble, it isn't pleasant but nor are a lot of necessary things, but few will be inclined to tilt at windmills.


i wouldn't be so sure of that, its early days yet!
also those who pay the 100euro now, i wonder will they be so happy to pay when it has jumped up to several thousand euro....and it will, have no doubt on that count!


----------



## Ceist Beag (5 Jan 2012)

blueband said:


> also those who pay the 100euro now, i wonder will they be so happy to pay when it has jumped up to several thousand euro....and it will, have no doubt on that count!



Of course they won't be happy - who said anyone was happy to pay this charge! And most of us realise this will go up over the years - but most of us also accept the reality we are living in. You on the other hand don't seem to have grasped that yet - now what was that you said about someone living in dreamland?


----------



## thedaras (5 Jan 2012)

blueband said:


> i will take my chances in court, if i have to do a few weeks inside i will.
> anyone that cant see that this is just the thin end of the wedge is living in dreamland!



As far as I know, no one will go to prison for not paying this..instead it is likely to be taken at source,ie;  social welfare or wages..
Either way, you will end up paying..


----------



## blueband (5 Jan 2012)

as i  have said im quite happy to take my chances in court, and i dont think i will be alone! time will tell.


----------



## so-crates (5 Jan 2012)

blueband said:


> i wouldn't be so sure of that, its early days yet!
> also those who pay the 100euro now, i wonder will they be so happy to pay when it has jumped up to several thousand euro....and it will, have no doubt on that count!



Can we borrow your crystal ball and use it to bet on the horses? While it will undoubtedly increase, I wonder what information you have that makes you so sure of your numbers?

As CeistBeag has suggested it is perhaps time to leave dreamland, the reckless experiment with centralised funding has failed, the coffee is going to boil over unless we wake up and take it off the heat. Well the rest of us will and will just wait for the legislation to garnish your wages/SW to be enacted. Or alternatively, if you decide to flee the charges in this country you can go and pay them abroad...


----------



## blueband (5 Jan 2012)

so-crates said:


> Can we borrow your crystal ball and use it to bet on the horses? While it will undoubtedly increase, I wonder what information you have that makes you so sure of your numbers?
> 
> As CeistBeag has suggested it is perhaps time to leave dreamland, the reckless experiment with centralised funding has failed, the coffee is going to boil over unless we wake up and take it off the heat. Well the rest of us will and will just wait for the legislation to garnish your wages/SW to be enacted. Or alternatively, if you decide to flee the charges in this country you can go and pay them abroad...


 so are you saying that this charge is not going to go up in leaps and bounds in the comming years! lets wait and see


----------



## blueband (5 Jan 2012)

thedaras said:


> As far as I know, no one will go to prison for not paying this..instead it is likely to be taken at source,ie; social welfare or wages..
> Either way, you will end up paying..


 in that case why dont they just take it at source now!.....oh i forgot they want us to 'opt in'     you can bet they do!


----------



## thedaras (5 Jan 2012)

Would you prefer it that way?
I would guess that like most other things, bin charges/car tax/self employed, etc etc that people are mature enough to pay themselves,however as some choose not to obey the law they will have no choice but to make them pay at source.


----------



## so-crates (5 Jan 2012)

blueband said:


> so are you saying that this charge is not going to go up in leaps and bounds in the comming years! lets wait and see



At which point have I disputed that it will rise? I asked you what basis you were taking for your putative "several thouand" euro. €100 is a paltry charge, I fully expect it to rise but I have no reference material to achieve the numbers you trot out. As a starting point I have looked at local charges in several other countries but especially the UK as our nearest neighbour and somewhere I have paid council tax, believe you me €100 is definitely a bargain. However even London boroughs are not tipping into "several" thousand pounds.



blueband said:


> in that case why dont they just take it at source now!.....oh i forgot they want us to 'opt in'     you can bet they do!


They do not currently have the facility to take this at source.


----------



## Sunny (5 Jan 2012)

I think most people will agree that the funding of local services needs to change. However, there are still a number of questions. What reform does the Government intend for local authorities. There is a report calling for radical overhaul that they are sitting on. What services should I be expected to pay for. I live in managed estate so already pay for rubbish, street lighting, maintenance etc. I don't use public amenities like libraries or swimming pools. I pay road tax that should pay for upkeep of roads. I don't see why I should have to pay for fire brigade or ambulance out of special tax since I don't have to do it for the guards. Also, it is not just property owners that use emergency services or public amenities so why are we picking up the tab? 

I have no problem paying water charges and I will pay this tax but I do have serious issues with it.


----------



## dewdrop (5 Jan 2012)

If you dont pay it will be a charge on your property and they will get it with interest in the end though you may not be around!


----------



## DerKaiser (5 Jan 2012)

blueband said:


> in that case why dont *they* just take it at source now!.....oh i forgot *they* want us to 'opt in' you can bet they do!


 
Who are *they*?

Most arguments I've seen would only be justified if FG & Labour were some king of unelected ruling elite who terrorised the country through some kind of private army and secret police squad. 

Get a grip, we are not North Korea, we are a democracy and the people we have elected to represent us are the people making the decisions.

We're not even paying enough tax yet to cover our lifestyles.  People forget we have free education, basic healthcare, an infrastructure to maintain, a safety net for older people and unemployed people, etc.

We're in a society, the alternative is anarchy.  Good luck to you if you want to choose anarchy.


----------



## Knuttell (5 Jan 2012)

DerKaiser said:


> Who are *they*?
> 
> Most arguments I've seen would only be justified if FG & Labour were some king of unelected ruling elite who terrorised the country through some kind of private army and secret police squad.
> we are not North Korea,* we are a democracy and the people we have elected to represent us are the people making the decisions.*



We have ceded sovereignty to the EU and the IMF *regardless* of our democratically elected Govt,these nameless,faceless individuals now run Ireland,do not be under any illusion that this is not the case.

We were once citizens of a Republic now we are servants of the State.

This is going to be an exceptionally divisive issue,there is no point people taking high moral grounds on it,there are none.

This tax to allow one to live in their own bloody house really is the last straw for many,coupled with the realisation that all this money will be poured like cement from a mixer right in to the banks and junior debt holders is sickening.

There are other huge inefficiencies in how the public purse is wasted that need to be aggressively addressed *before* lumping this tax on our heads and until these are tackled I will not be paying one red cent of this tax.


----------



## Purple (5 Jan 2012)

Knuttell said:


> We have ceded sovereignty to the EU and the IMF *regardless* of our democratically elected Govt,these nameless,faceless individuals now run Ireland,do not be under any illusion that this is not the case.
> 
> We were once citizens of a Republic now we are servants of the State.
> 
> ...



What do you think should happen before you would be willing to pay up?


----------



## Knuttell (5 Jan 2012)

Purple said:


> What do you think should happen before you would be willing to pay up?



Where do you start??

Social welfare payments need to be completely overhauled,this nonsense of refusing a job because it doesn't pay any where near as well as the dole is crazy.Why am I paying for unemployed people to be driving 10D cars and being in the pubs 3-4 nights a week?or turning down a job paying 35k because the dole with its menu of payments is worth more to them than the average industrial wage??

The Croke park agreement needs to be shredded,there is major savings to be made by having an efficient and streamlined CS/PS,its just not happening any where near as fast it should be and both are hemorrhaging tax payers money at a massive rate. 

There are many many others...exhaust all these and then at the end of it go to the tax payer and say look there's no other option but a property tax...when that happens then I will pay a tax to live in my own house,until then its a bit like a friend living a flash lifestyle always looking for someone else to pony up so they can continue to buy the brand new Beemer but legging it to the jacks when its their round cos they haven't got a proverbial pot.


----------



## roker (5 Jan 2012)

I note that the new property tax is supposed to cover "open spaces and leisure amenities" 
The residence in our street has been paying €100 plus each, per year to hire a contractor to cut the grass in the street opposite our houses.
A councilor replied to my query and said that:

“The town council is a former town commission, and any household charges paid will go to central government, and not to the town Council or Cork county council. As a former town commission we are funded by a small percentage of the rates paid in the town.


----------



## horusd (5 Jan 2012)

DerKaiser said:


> Who are *they*?
> ... *king *of unelected ruling elite who terrorised the country through some kind of private army and secret police squad.



A German King talking about Kings and the unelected ... and with Mrs Merkel with her foot on our necks, and the German parliament reviewing our budgets!well I never....careful Derkaiser, you're open to a right bit of slagging on this one


----------



## DerKaiser (6 Jan 2012)

As a nation Ireland has a 25% shortfall in terms of paying for our own spending. 

At a very macro level we need to acknowldge that people outside this country are funding that shortfall and we need to pay them back. 

At national level, the government we have elected have a mandate from us in deciding how to bridge that 25% shortfall and those outside the country have given us considerable breathing space in how we go about that. 

The main tools open to the government include reforming/cutting the public service, cutting social welfare, cutting education, cutting health spending, raising spending taxes, raising income taxes and raising various other taxes.

If you acknowledge that some of these need to happen then you must accept that the elected government has chosen which of these to implement this year. There is no painless way, someone needs to pay. You might take the view that it should be done in another way, but another section of society will have a different view. I think unemployment benefit should be the first to get cut, but I'll still pay my tax hikes despite disagreeing with higher taxes rather than social welfare cuts.

If you don't acknowledge that some kind of action is needed when the outside world is subsidising our day to day spending to the tune of €11.5bn then I'm wasting my time!


----------



## Knuttell (6 Jan 2012)

DerKaiser said:


> If you don't acknowledge that some kind of action is needed when the outside world is subsidising our day to day spending to the tune of €11.5bn then I'm wasting my time!


 
I listed 2 exceptionally heavy drains on our taxes that need to be sorted immediately,its not rocket science,sort those out first *before* looking always to the middle/working class to subsidise everything in the form of massively ramped up taxes on those that keep the show running.


----------



## DerKaiser (6 Jan 2012)

Knuttell said:


> I listed 2 exceptionally heavy drains on our taxes that need to be sorted immediately,its not rocket science,sort those out first *before* looking always to the middle/working class to subsidise everything in the form of massively ramped up taxes on those that keep the show running.


 
And I'd personally agree with you, but the government has made its decision to protect the rates of social welfare and the wages of the public service. From a selfish perspective, I'm not happy with that. 

I'd also like to think I can hold an unbiased opinion, and from that perspective the burden borne by workers in the €35k+ income bracket is excessive given that they're likely to the the people who worked hard, paid large property related taxes in the past and have nothing to show for it but negative equity.

I'm just uneasy at expressing anger through non-compliance with taxation. Where would it end? Would you stop paying the TV licences because you don't watch RTE and believe it to be a horrendous waste of taxpayers money? If you owned shares would you stop declaring the dividends for tax because you have made large capital losses. If you owned a 2nd property in negative equity that you paid stamp duty on would you not pay the 2nd home tax or declare rental income (it seems wrong to pay taxes on something you've had nothing but losses from)?

Its all a bit murky and dangerous, there has to be a better way for middle income self-employed & PAYE workers to register their disgust at the choices that are being made. God knows the pensioners seem to get their way whenever anyone threatens to take anything off of them...


----------



## MeathCommute (6 Jan 2012)

DerKaiser said:


> God knows the pensioners seem to get their way whenever anyone threatens to take anything off of them...


 
We'll see, after today's revenue sting....


----------



## so-crates (7 Jan 2012)

Hmm, I would not be inclined to consider a safe detention centre for children an "idiotic halfwit project". Sending juvenile offenders into adult prisons is far more idiotic. 

The project was partially underway (the gates were erected in early 2011 according to the article so under the auspices of the previous government) they have decided to call a halt because the price tag was too high. Would you rather they continued on with the project at the price? From the article clearly this example is actually an example of the current government trying to reduce spending and provide value for any money that will be spent. 
While there is no shortage of examples of innefficiencies and poor practice not being addressed, this is not the example you are looking for.


----------



## Knuttell (7 Jan 2012)

so-crates said:


> While there is no shortage of examples of innefficiencies and poor practice not being addressed, this is not the example you are looking for.



Of course you are correct spending 70k on a set of gates with no boundary fence into a site on which ground was never broken for a project that even in 2011 was clear as day there was no money for...definitely  not an example of inefficient spending of the public purse.


----------



## so-crates (8 Jan 2012)

Isn't it a good thing then that they have stopped spending money on it.


----------



## Protocol (10 Jan 2012)

[broken link removed]

In this article, 4 reasons for a property tax are listed.


----------



## DerKaiser (10 Jan 2012)

Protocol said:


> [broken link removed]
> 
> In this article, 4 reasons for a property tax are listed.


 
I agree with a lot of the article, except for the amount!

If €1.3bn was being collected at the height of the boom there is no need to replace the full amount.  If we start trying to restore all taxes to their 2007 levels where is the incentive to find efficiencies in grossly inefficient spending?

Let's not forget that water charges are on the way as well. €0.5bn  from each of these two new taxes would be more than enough. Any more, as has been pointed out, will lead to a ridiculous system of means testing, waivers, etc.


----------

