# Public Service Pay Scales & Promotion



## Newbie!

I recently applied for and was successful at getting a new job in a public service organisation. 
I currently am at the top of the scale at say, 60K. I am now jumping two grades and HR have told me that they will only place me at the equivalent point +1 on the next scale ie. 62k. The job has more responsibility and accountability and i wouldn't get an increment until Sept 2012 as i wont be in my role 6months come this Sept.

Has anyone else experienced this and if so, how did they successfully negotiate?


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## Guns N Roses

Newbie! said:


> I currently am at the top of the scale at say, 60K. I am now jumping two grades and HR have told me that they will only place me at the equivalent point +1 on the next scale ie. 62k. The job has more responsibility and accountability and i wouldn't get an increment until Sept 2012 as i wont be in my role 6months come this Sept.


 
I don't see anything wrong with this. Seems to be in accordance with standard practices in the Public Sector. I don't think you have any claim to negotiate


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## Newbie!

Guns N Roses said:


> I don't see anything wrong with this. Seems to be in accordance with standard practices in the Public Sector. I don't think you have any claim to negotiate



Really? The responsibilities and accountability attached to the new role is significantly different to the current post and it seems ludicrous to offer a 2k financial incentive to take on this post. I don't think I'm being unreasonable. I didn't expect a major increase but I did think 4-5k was appropriate.


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## djh

You're lucky!

I'm looking at moving from one public sector body into the civil service proper, and am being told that I will be put at the bottom of the salary scale for the grade (rules from the Dept Finance apparently), despite original competitions saying that it would take into account experience and salary.


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## Newbie!

djh said:


> You're lucky!
> 
> I'm looking at moving from one public sector body into the civil service proper, and am being told that I will be put at the bottom of the salary scale for the grade (rules from the Dept Finance apparently), despite original competitions saying that it would take into account experience and salary.


 
Is that not utterly contradictary?


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## colm5

So dont take the job if you are not happy with the conditions.


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## Gekko

Newbie! said:


> I recently applied for and was successful at getting a new job in a public service organisation.
> I currently am at the top of the scale at say, 60K. I am now jumping two grades and HR have told me that they will only place me at the equivalent point +1 on the next scale ie. 62k. The job has more responsibility and accountability and i wouldn't get an increment until Sept 2012 as i wont be in my role 6months come this Sept.
> 
> Has anyone else experienced this and if so, how did they successfully negotiate?


 
You'll now get a pay rise every year for the next few years irrespective of your performance.

You should be happy.


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## gianni

I thought this uninformed public service bashing was a thing of the past... obviously not...


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## Slim

Newbie! said:


> I recently applied for and was successful at getting a new job in a public service organisation.
> I currently am at the top of the scale at say, 60K. I am now jumping two grades and HR have told me that they will only place me at the equivalent point +1 on the next scale ie. 62k. The job has more responsibility and accountability and i wouldn't get an increment until Sept 2012 as i wont be in my role 6months come this Sept.
> 
> Has anyone else experienced this and if so, how did they successfully negotiate?


 
My reference point for this is circular 10/71 and I would have thought it would be next highest point plus one. Regardless of what we think our responsibilities are worth, we can only get the scale for the post. Just make sure you get put on the correct point. Might be worth checking with the union. Slim


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## AnAthas

You may have reason to feel aggrieved newbie. I've found also that approaching a union in this situation is counter-productive as they seem to want everyone to stay on basic grades and levels and once you go to the higher grades they treat you as a traitor to the cause.
I a think strong letter (hardcopy by external mail) to HR outlining your case of why you believe you should be placed on a higher increment. You'll have to tailor it to the area that your in, but the more supporting argument you can add the better. Since they have offered you the position they cannot take it away because of the letter. It could result in a stand-off between you and them, with you not filling the position and them not offering it to someone else, until an accommodation is reached. It could be a case of repeatedly badgering them with argument letters until they eventually cave in. This was the route that I would have taken in recent years. In current circumstances it's hard to know how it will play out, but that's my advice.


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## Gekko

gianni said:


> I thought this uninformed public service bashing was a thing of the past... obviously not...


 


Gekko said:


> You'll now get a pay rise every year for the next few years irrespective of your performance.
> 
> You should be happy.


 
It's not public service bashing...it's a statement of fact.

Irrespective of Newbie's performance in his or her new role and despite the disastrous condition of the nation's finances, he or she will receive an annual pay rise for the next number of years.

People are free to form their own opinions on the above situation.


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## becky

Slim said:


> My reference point for this is circular 10/71 and I would have thought it would be next highest point plus one. Regardless of what we think our responsibilities are worth, we can only get the scale for the post. Just make sure you get put on the correct point. Might be worth checking with the union. Slim



Not always the case, 10/71 is a formula that compares the 2 pay scales and you fill in the blanks.  I have been promoted 3 times and did my own SPOP, never needed the union to do it for me. Two grand increase sounds about right but it's not clear if circ 10/71 SPOP applies here.

I think newbie is lucky to be getting the extra money at all as we have people getting promoted (to fill jobs left vacant as a result of the exit schemes) on paper but no change to pay.  So for example a grade VII has the title of General Manager with grades 8's reporting to him.

I like to think I'm a motivated public servant but I don't think I could do that.


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## Calico

*Joining the NUJ*

Post removed


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## djh

Newbie! said:


> Is that not utterly contradictary?



Yes, it is. 
I have been told that I can lodge an appeal, which I intend to do. Unknown if it will be successful.


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## RonanC

Gekko said:


> It's not public service bashing...it's a statement of fact.
> 
> Irrespective of Newbie's performance in his or her new role and despite the disastrous condition of the nation's finances, he or she will receive an annual pay rise for the next number of years.


 
This is simply not true.


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## Guns N Roses

Newbie! said:


> Really? The responsibilities and accountability attached to the new role is significantly different to the current post and it seems ludicrous to offer a 2k financial incentive to take on this post. I don't think I'm being unreasonable. I didn't expect a major increase but I did think 4-5k was appropriate.


 
Yes! Really. 

The difference in responsililty between your current role and your new role is irrelevent. 

Your new role has a set pay scale. HR are only allowed to give your current equivalent salary on the new scale plus 1.

The only reason that you are not getting a bigger jump in your salary is because the pay scales of Public Sector jobs at higher level tend to overlap which rules out large jumps in salary. It's equivalent to moving up an increment.

You're wasting your time talking to HR or the Union.


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## partnership

Circular 10/71 applies - it is the nearest point plus one.  There is no room for negotiation on this unless you had previous experience in another public sector organisation at the grade which could be taken into account.  You now have the opportunity to get an increment each year and move up a new payscale and it is this that is of value as you were stuck at the top of your old scale.  There are many people int he public service at the moment doing higher grade work, or doing two and three peoples work with no extra pay.  If you truly believe that the extra work and responsability is not worth it then turn it down and stay as you are with no increases for the next few years.  Public service pay policy is very transparent and the last thing we need is people looking for things outside the norm.


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## Gekko

RonanC said:


> This is simply not true.


 
How so?

Those on increments automatically get them.


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## RonanC

Gekko said:


> Those on increments automatically get them.


 
Automatically? 

Haha very funny!!

Have you never heard of performance reviews that must be carried out every year prior to an increment being rewarded or not. These reviews can and do lead to increments being refused. 

If however, you have proof that says the opposite, we would all be delighted to see it.


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## Gekko

RonanC said:


> These reviews can and do lead to increments being refused.
> 
> If however, you have proof that says the opposite, we would all be delighted to see it.


 
No they do not.

If you have proof of public servants who have been denied their annual increment, I'd be delighted to see it.


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## RonanC

Gekko said:


> No they do not.
> 
> If you have proof of public servants who have been denied their annual increment, I'd be delighted to see it.


 
Listen this is going to go around in circles.. I've no idea who you are, where you work or anything. All I can tell you from first hand experience, is that increments are refused.

Proof is [broken link removed] if you wish to read.



[broken link removed]


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## djh

Hi, 

would anyone be able to point me to a copy of Circular 10/71 ?
Have googled and searched the Finance site but can't seem to find it. 

Thanks.


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## Slim

djh said:


> Hi,
> 
> would anyone be able to point me to a copy of Circular 10/71 ?
> Have googled and searched the Finance site but can't seem to find it.
> 
> Thanks.


 Here you go...[broken link removed]


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## Newbie!

Lost internet access last night (NTL..whole other story) so just catching u on this thread now.

I made my points to HR. They still refused the increased. I am still taking the post as I feel it is a good career move in the long-term and the immediate financial gain is not the most significant factor in my decision-making.

Thanks for all the posts. I agree with almost all of them. 

RonanC, although I dont agree with it, my organisation does grant increments irrespective of performance.


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## RonanC

Newbie! said:


> Lost internet access last night (NTL..whole other story) so just catching u on this thread now.
> 
> I made my points to HR. They still refused the increased. I am still taking the post as I feel it is a good career move in the long-term and the immediate financial gain is not the most significant factor in my decision-making.
> 
> Thanks for all the posts. I agree with almost all of them.
> 
> RonanC, although I dont agree with it, my organisation does grant increments irrespective of performance.



I think your doing the right thing in accepting the position, and wish you all the best with it. Generally those who join the Public Service are not chasing the money, or the life long job, but the satisfaction of doing something good for the community or the public. It may sound like fantasy land but its true in most cases...  Nurses, Doctors, Firemen & women, Gardaí, Army/Navy/Air Corp and even the clerical staff in government departments. 

Can I ask do you know if PMDS is carried out in your new organisation? Is it Public or Civil Service, or is it a state agency? You dont need to say where it is, but terms relating to pay and increments would differ between the civil service and those working for semi state bodies or state agencies.


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## Newbie!

It is public service. Yes, PMDS exists but hasn't been very successful. Management have been very vocal in their negative opinions in it so many staff feel if just another he exercise. I did my first review 16 months ago and have not heard a word about it since!


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## Bonaparte

Forgive me Newbie but you do have the option of refusing the promotion which would release you from the predicament you find yourself in


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## Guns N Roses

Newbie! said:


> RonanC, although I dont agree with it, my organisation does grant increments irrespective of performance.


 
Are you sure about this Newbie? 

Normally in the Public Sector in order to get your increment your Line Manager has to sign off on your performance. Otherwise you don't move up your pay scale.


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## Guns N Roses

Newbie! said:


> Yes, PMDS exists but hasn't been very successful. Management have been very vocal in their negative opinions in it so many staff feel if just another he exercise. I did my first review 16 months ago and have not heard a word about it since!


 
Of course Management are complaining about PMDS. It's more work for them.

I find it very benefical in my Public Sector career.


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## Newbie!

Guns N Roses said:


> Are you sure about this Newbie?
> 
> Normally in the Public Sector in order to get your increment your Line Manager has to sign off on your performance. Otherwise you don't move up your pay scale.


 
I'm sure they do have to sign off on it but it is virtually unheard off that someone would not get their increment....again, madness.


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## Threadser

Gekko said:


> No they do not.
> 
> If you have proof of public servants who have been denied their annual increment, I'd be delighted to see it.



Not all public service jobs have annual increments. As a teacher I have received one increment in the past 3 years and my next one is due in 4 years time. I am on a 25 year pay scale which has several pauses in increments as you progress up the scale.


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## Slim

When I worked in local authorities annual increments were only granted following a written process of approval by a line manager. When I moved to the HSE I found that increments are automatic! Slim


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## potnoodler

I think anyone getting a raise at alll is doing very well, I myself have taken a 33% reduction and because we've let so many staff go am doing the work of two(trying to anyway) all with the new mantra of lucky to have a job ringing in my ears, its an employers market the state should be no different


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## Newbie!

potnoodler said:


> I think anyone getting a raise at alll is doing very well, I myself have taken a 33% reduction and because we've let so many staff go am doing the work of two(trying to anyway) all with the new mantra of lucky to have a job ringing in my ears, its an employers market the state should be no different



Just to clarify something, I too have taken significant cuts to my salary. This is a new post with new principal responsibilities. I don't think I should feel lucky in any respect. Whilst I appreciate it is an employers market at the moment, we are not here to be taken advantage of and nor should we accept 'the current economic climate' as a credible reason for unsatisfactory working conditions or pay.


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## djh

Cheers for that 

Would you (or anyone else  ) know if there is a similar circular that applies to the Civil Service?
THat version of 10/71 talks about the Dept of Health.


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## gipimann

Slim said:


> When I worked in local authorities annual increments were only granted following a written process of approval by a line manager. When I moved to the HSE I found that increments are automatic! Slim


 
This wasn't my experience of the HSE - a written approval was required from my line manager each time an increment was due.


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## Slim

gipimann said:


> This wasn't my experience of the HSE - a written approval was required from my line manager each time an increment was due.


 
In fairness I moved to a health board. Things may have changed. Slim


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## gipimann

djh said:


> Cheers for that
> 
> Would you (or anyone else  ) know if there is a similar circular that applies to the Civil Service?
> THat version of 10/71 talks about the Dept of Health.


 
djh, I think the circular you're looking for is 34/77 which deals with pay, promotion, etc in the Civil Service.


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## liaconn

Gekko said:


> No they do not.
> 
> If you have proof of public servants who have been denied their annual increment, I'd be delighted to see it.


 
I work in the Civil Service and know of people who have not got their increment because of poor performance. What exact 'proof' do you require. Would you like me to send you their names and a copy of their payslips????


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## gipimann

Slim said:


> In fairness I moved to a health board. Things may have changed. Slim


 
Slim, my experience was in a health board too (prior to the formation of the HSE).


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## Boogie

*'New Entrant'?*

Hi everyone.  

Wondering how the above is defined in my case:  
Resigned from FAS 10 years ago (permanent clerical officer - top of scale) due to child's medical condition.
Have now applied for an temp. 1year EA position in a university.
Salary criteria states "appointments with no previous public sector experience will be placed on the 1st point of 2011 salary scale".

What to you think?  Am I back to where I started?


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## partnership

Most jobs will allow you incremental credit for previous public sector experience.  If Fas is on this list then you will get credit for it.  Make sure they know about the previous experience.  Sometimes they will only give you the incremental credit when you are made permanent.


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