# Impending Coup:Trade Unions are talking tough about taking down the government.



## DerKaiser (16 Dec 2009)

[broken link removed]

Looks like the unions are talking tough about taking down the government.

I would personally have a problem with this if I was paying their wages.

There's 81 deputies in leinster house who can continue as a democratically elected government for the next 2.5 years if they so wish, and there's nothing the unions can do about that.


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## TarfHead (16 Dec 2009)

*Re: Impending Coup*



> 'General secretary of the secondary teachers' union ASTI, John White, said unions have become “entirely alienated” from the Government ..'


 
.. and reality


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## Sunny (16 Dec 2009)

*Re: Impending Coup*

Was thinking that myself. They are perfectly free to come out and say their members will not vote for them at the next election but for them to come out and basically admit they will try and bring down this Government through a campaign of sneaky industrial action is outrageous. TD's of *all *parties should come out and condemn the Unions for this.


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## z107 (16 Dec 2009)

*Re: Impending Coup*

I would welcome a coup for many reasons.
impending DNA Database and far too much government
 interference, corruption. Ireland is very far from free. 
Not to mention the fact the government has destroyed Ireland and its future.

However, I certainly would not back a Union led coup.
They're worse.


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## delgirl (16 Dec 2009)

*Re: Impending Coup*



TarfHead said:


> .. and reality


+1  - drunk with power springs to mind!


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## Sunny (16 Dec 2009)

*Re: Impending Coup*

The people can bring down this Government anytime they wish by taking to the streets. Thats not the Unions are suggesting though. 

Wonder could we introduce internment for them!!

Can't believe it is actually a bank union leader that came out with this as well after this Government saved the system and all his members jobs.


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## RonanC (16 Dec 2009)

*Re: Impending Coup*



DerKaiser said:


> There's 81 deputies in leinster house who can continue as a democratically elected government for the next 2.5 years if they so wish, and there's nothing the unions can do about that.


 
There is a requirment under the constitution of ireland that there is at least one TD for every 20,000 - 30,000 people in the country so therefore a minimum of 141 TD's required for the Dáil to function. 

If "someone" manages or convinces a number of TDs to resign in protest at the current Government, then By-Elections or best/worst case scenario a General Election must be called.


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## Purple (16 Dec 2009)

*Re: Impending Coup*

What started as union resistance to pay cuts may well turn into a battle about who runs the country. Socialism and democracy don't last long in bed with each other so I'd have to back democracy.


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## Deiseblue (16 Dec 2009)

*Re: Impending Coup*

Purely tactical , one of the things that truly terrifies politicians is a concerted campaign to ensure that a section of the electorate are urged not to vote for their party.
We are going to hear a lot more of this in the media and indeed about what form of industrial action may or may not take place over the next couple of months .


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## brigade (16 Dec 2009)

*Re: Impending Coup*

Don't think it matters who gets in, they would all of done the same last week.


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## Purple (16 Dec 2009)

*Re: Impending Coup*



brigade said:


> don't think it matters who gets in, they would all of done the same last week.



+1


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## DerKaiser (16 Dec 2009)

*Re: Impending Coup*



RonanC said:


> There is a requirment under the constitution of ireland that there is at least one TD for every 20,000 - 30,000 people in the country so therefore a minimum of 141 TD's required for the Dáil to function.
> 
> If "someone" manages or convinces a number of TDs to resign in protest at the current Government, then By-Elections or best/worst case scenario a General Election must be called.


 
I'm sure a sufficient number of bye-elections would be called immediately in the event of protest resignations reducing the number of TDs to that level


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## DerKaiser (16 Dec 2009)

*Re: Impending Coup*



Sunny said:


> Can't believe it is actually a bank union leader that came out with this as well after this Government saved the system and all his members jobs.


 
Good observation.  I'm really confused as to what Larry Broderick's beef is?


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## carpedeum (16 Dec 2009)

*Re: Impending Coup*

"Speaking ahead of a meeting of Ictu’s executive council in Dublin today general secretary of the Irish Bank Officials' Association Larry Broderick said the unions’ strategy “has to be at taking this Government out of power”.

Is it not a tad ironic that the IBOA are proposing this since the banks by inflating the property bubble to bursting point are the main cause of the mess we are in as an economy. We are rescuing his members' employers through NAMA, a horse that is going to be still running over hurdles for at least 10 years, and our taxes. I accept he only represents the bank officials (though who were incentivized to lend, lend, lend!), but, a substantial number of his members benefitted through pay hikes, bonuses and share deals during the Celtic Tiger. I know of some of his members who earned substantial profits selling BOI and AIB shares when they were trading near peak values or beginning to slide.

A little bit of remorse and humility from the banks would be better PR for Mr Broderick.


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## roker (16 Dec 2009)

*Re: Impending Coup*

The unions are only democratic to their own members. They tell none union members what to do e.g. picket lines. They do not have a mandate to say how the country is run, as they only represent their own, their numbers are few compared to an elected TD


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## DonDub (16 Dec 2009)

*Re: Impending Coup*



DerKaiser said:


> I'm sure a sufficient number of bye-elections would be called immediately in the event of protest resignations reducing the number of TDs to that level


 

Ireland is doomed to be a sickly member of the 'developed' world as long as the vast majority of our TDs are parish-pump merchants. And as such, they are very susceptible to pressure from vested interest groups like ICTU.
Most TDs realise what we need to do to sustain a health society and economy i.e. 
-Introduce radical electoral reform - retain PR, but based on single seat constituencies
-Introduce a list system
-Eliminate the Senad - possibly replace with an upper chamber that is elected through universal suffrage - if there is a credible rationale for a second chamber. I'm personally not convinced there is such a rationale.
-Reduce number of TDs significantly - to 1:50,000 voters
-Reduce size of cabinet - Taoiseach,Finance, Education,Health,Welfare,Environment,Industry,Agriculture and one miscellaneous(tourism,Gaelteacht,defense etc.)
-Eliminate junior minister role - farm out tasks to TDs instead
-Radically reform local government- thus allowing TDs to govern the country, while local issues are managed locally

An approach along these lines would facilitate a step-change in the way we are governed. It would free the Dail from the shackles of the parish-pump mentality, and from the gombeen brigade. A list system would make it possible to headhunt the best and brightest, from industry and academia for roles in government.
It would encourage TDs to take a longer term strategic view of the direction the country could and should take - as this is the benchmark the voters would use i.e. national elections for a national perspective.
I'm sure this approach would generate its own problems, however, it offers the possibility of a step-change in the quality and effectiveness of governance.
Unfortunately, not one TD in the Dail is willing to promote such an agenda - and so, Dail reform will continue to be a pious aspiration of the opposition - which is quickly dropped once power is secured.

So rock on ICTU and the IFA,IBEC, and the Consultants, the Law Library, and Healy-Rae, and Lowry and ....you are free to run this country....into the ground....


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## Ancutza (16 Dec 2009)

*Re: Impending Coup*

Since we still have it as an offence on the statutes then it is time to jail the union leaders for sedition.


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## haminka1 (17 Dec 2009)

*Re: Impending Coup*



umop3p!sdn said:


> I would welcome a coup for many reasons.
> impending DNA Database and far too much government
> interference, corruption. Ireland is very far from free.
> Not to mention the fact the government has destroyed Ireland and its future.
> ...



sure agent mulder, now start talking conspiracy ... the fact that politicians in Ireland are corrupt and totally interconnected with business tycoons has nothing to do with "too much government" ... on the contrary, I'd say that there isn't enough of well organized government over here in Ireland - the fact that you can freely avail of benefit frauds, "lease" your prsi number, rarely need any form of formal identification means that the government in Ireland is absolutely chaotic and one hand doesn't know what the other one is doing.
it wasn't the government that destroyed Ireland and it's future /in fact I don't consider it destroyed, let's not be overdramatic/ - sure, they made plenty of mistake but who voted for them and let them be elected? and who cheered the same guys we are now booing when times were good and nobody cared about that they jet around the world and hire expensive limousines paid for by our taxes? there were even common people who were proud that our politicians can "afford it" and show off the power of the celtic kitt ... eh, tiger ... 
while i don't wish for more government in the sense of more public servants and government bodies /god and man knows we have more than enough/ i'd wish for a better organized and interconnected government ...


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## Caveat (17 Dec 2009)

*Re: Impending Coup*



Ancutza said:


> Since we still have it as an offence on the statutes then it is time to jail the union leaders for sedition.


 
I would barely be able to contain my glee if this were to be the case.


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## Purple (17 Dec 2009)

*Re: Impending Coup*



Caveat said:


> I would barely be able to contain my glee if this were to be the case.



Lol  
+1


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## Mouldy (17 Dec 2009)

*Re: Impending Coup*

This whole tread is a bit mad (ted). The people as a whole have being threatening governments like this since the foundation of the electoral system here? Intrest groups have always hinted/threatened the sitting goverment with its demise should their demands not be met. Its a fop, mothing more. Don't take it so seriously. ICTU know perfectly well that thier membership won't vote for any particular party based on any union instruction. If they did then Labour would have an overall majority.

The best and most sinister example of this type of rubbish in recent times was 1997 when the Independent ran a front page editorial entitled "Its payback time" just before the general election.

M


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## Deiseblue (17 Dec 2009)

*Re: Impending Coup*



Ancutza said:


> Since we still have it as an offence on the statutes then it is time to jail the union leaders for sedition.


And pigs might fly !


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## csirl (17 Dec 2009)

*Re: Impending Coup*

I dont think we'll see a violent revolution or anything like that (at least I hope we dont), but I'm am sensing deep unease among a lot of people. I'm not talking about your usual left wing nuts who are always dissaffected and always protest. I mean ordinary generally mild mannered sensible people.

I remember saying on this forum before the last election, that this Government will be the last stand of the gombeen man. I am 100% certain that this is the case. I have a sense that the mood is similar to that in eastern Europe in the couple of years before the fall of the Berlin wall. When the mild mannered middle classes get agitated, the Government is in serious difficulties. While I would not rule out the possibility of the Government falling via peaceful protest ala fall of the Berlin wall, I do believe that when the next election comes, whether it be weeks or years away, FF will be about as popular as the Stasi are in eastern Germany. There are FF members I know who will not even vote for their own party (and will not be renewing their membership). I think we'll see a big change in Irish politics with no place for gombeen man TDs.


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## Sunny (17 Dec 2009)

*Re: Impending Coup*



Mouldy said:


> This whole tread is a bit mad (ted). The people as a whole have being threatening governments like this since the foundation of the electoral system here? Intrest groups have always hinted/threatened the sitting goverment with its demise should their demands not be met. Its a fop, mothing more. Don't take it so seriously. ICTU know perfectly well that thier membership won't vote for any particular party based on any union instruction. If they did then Labour would have an overall majority.
> 
> The best and most sinister example of this type of rubbish in recent times was 1997 when the Independent ran a front page editorial entitled "Its payback time" just before the general election.
> 
> M


 
Saying you are going to bring down the Government through the ballot box is not what the IBOA leader was talking about. He was talking about trying to bring down the Government through industrial action. I would of thought the objective of industrial action is to defend your members interests. If you decide to politicise your campaign and make bringing down the Government your objective, you have crossed the line and have become a threat to democracy in this Country.There is nothing to stop the trade unions setting up their own political party and getting a mandate at the next election.
Anyway even ICTU have backed away from his comments. Like I say before, I have no idea what the IBOA are complaining about anyway. They should be on their knees thanking the taxpayer and the Government. And I say that as a banker.


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## Deiseblue (17 Dec 2009)

*Re: Impending Coup*



Sunny said:


> Saying you are going to bring down the Government through the ballot box is not what the IBOA leader was talking about. He was talking about trying to bring down the Government through industrial action. I would of thought the objective of industrial action is to defend your members interests. If you decide to politicise your campaign and make bringing down the Government your objective, you have crossed the line and have become a threat to democracy in this Country.There is nothing to stop the trade unions setting up their own political party and getting a mandate at the next election.
> Anyway even ICTU have backed away from his comments. Like I say before, I have no idea what the IBOA are complaining about anyway. They should be on their knees thanking the taxpayer and the Government. And I say that as a banker.


Perhaps Larry Broderick should be concentrating more on the upcoming threats to jobs and pay in AIB !


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## Sunny (17 Dec 2009)

*Re: Impending Coup*



Deiseblue said:


> Perhaps Larry Broderick should be concentrating more on the upcoming threats to jobs and pay in AIB !


 
And all the other banks! Of course he will start coming out with all this rubbish about 'how our members didn't cause this crisis'....Well either did the people who have lost their jobs, the public sector employees, the poor, the disabled etc etc. Doesn't change economic reality.


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## Purple (17 Dec 2009)

*Re: Impending Coup*



csirl said:


> I dont think we'll see a violent revolution or anything like that (at least I hope we dont), but I'm am sensing deep unease among a lot of people. I'm not talking about your usual left wing nuts who are always dissaffected and always protest. I mean ordinary generally mild mannered sensible people.
> 
> I remember saying on this forum before the last election, that this Government will be the last stand of the gombeen man. I am 100% certain that this is the case. I have a sense that the mood is similar to that in eastern Europe in the couple of years before the fall of the Berlin wall. When the mild mannered middle classes get agitated, the Government is in serious difficulties. While I would not rule out the possibility of the Government falling via peaceful protest ala fall of the Berlin wall, I do believe that when the next election comes, whether it be weeks or years away, FF will be about as popular as the Stasi are in eastern Germany. There are FF members I know who will not even vote for their own party (and will not be renewing their membership). I think we'll see a big change in Irish politics with no place for gombeen man TDs.



FF’s biggest asset is still in place though and that has to be taken into account; Mr. Enda Kenny


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## Deiseblue (17 Dec 2009)

*Re: Impending Coup*



Sunny said:


> And all the other banks! Of course he will start coming out with all this rubbish about 'how our members didn't cause this crisis'....Well either did the people who have lost their jobs, the public sector employees, the poor, the disabled etc etc. Doesn't change economic reality.


Economic reality and the Banks !
It may offend you but of course if he did say that IBOA members did'nt cause the crisis then he would be quite correct.
I'm sure that all his members in both AIB and BOI who received the increases due under the first tranche of the National Wage Agreement are grateful to the IBOA , I believe that he currently is in negotiation with BOI re paying the second tranche.


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## ashambles (17 Dec 2009)

*Re: Impending Coup*

So the bank staff are completely ignorant of how banks should operate, while quite possible it's an embarassing defense. 

The IBOA was pretty anxious to grab as much as they could of the illusury earnings the banks were reporting up to 2008, via profit sharing and share schemes. Effectively the taxpayer is now picking up the tab for these profits.

They probably argued at the IBOA employees were at least partly responsible for those earnings (the usual postion for demanding profit sharing), which would be at odds with the current position of it was all them other fellas fault. 

As late as June 2008 the IBOA were moaning about members not getting enough bank shares - whose value was inflated by those abnormal earnings.  Not much talk of getting payment via shares these days though, since the IBOA lately discovered socialism and want nationalization instead. The perfect example of capitalize the profits, socialize the losses.


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## VOR (17 Dec 2009)

*Re: Impending Coup*

I am sure it's all talk and waffle from the unions. Still though, such talk is a threat to the Republic. The threat from the Gardai is a far more worrying one IMO.

One way or another it should be made clear to any one that threatens the Republic that swift action will be taken against sedition.


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## Deiseblue (17 Dec 2009)

*Re: Impending Coup*



VOR said:


> I am sure it's all talk and waffle from the unions. Still though, such talk is a threat to the Republic. The threat from the Gardai is a far more worrying one IMO.
> 
> One way or another it should be made clear to any one that threatens the Republic that swift action will be taken against sedition.


Lock them up in the Tower and get the rack out !
Heads on spikes perhaps ?


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## haminka1 (17 Dec 2009)

*Re: Impending Coup*



Deiseblue said:


> Lock them up in the Tower and get the rack out !
> Heads on spikes perhaps ?



1.no to first suggestion - they'll have a nice vacation from your taxes 
2. no to second suggestion - this wouldn't go through due to hygienic reasons ...


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## dockingtrade (17 Dec 2009)

*Re: Impending Coup*



Purple said:


> FF’s biggest asset is still in place though and that has to be taken into account; Mr. Enda Kenny


 
+1


anywho if the unions want the current mob out what are the new mob goign to do. Reverse all the the cuts??? I dont think so.

As for revolution.. is there really a stomach for it? Its not like the unions represent folk down mines for 12 hours a day.

-----

Black & white view from an oridnary joe.The govt f&cked up and are imposing cuts but yet have money for the banks. The unions talk of savage attacks and treated like the 2nd class citizens and i think Begg made a reference to being discriminated against, yet they are in graunteed fulltime jobs in the worst recession in history.
Both the govt who seem cluess and the union leaders who are socialist lefties on 6 figures sums are so far removed from the the ordinary guy that both camps are actually clueless and its all about spin and whos the better BSer. This is the way i see it, bring the EU or IMF and tell just sort this out, no vested interest no spin no politics. If banks are to go under let them fail, if cuts are wrong/unfair dont cut. If banks are to be saved, save them and if cuts are to be made make them and leave it a that and we all start again.


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## Ancutza (18 Dec 2009)

*Re: Impending Coup*



> Lock them up in the Tower and get the rack out !
> Heads on spikes perhaps ?



I know that your being facetious but there really _IS_ an offence on the irish statutes of sedition and IMHO it should be pointedly waved at Begg et al, indeed the Gardai too.


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## Deiseblue (18 Dec 2009)

*Re: Impending Coup*

Why stop there ?
Why not wave the edict on treason in front of a coterie of Bankers,Developers and Politicians ?


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## csirl (18 Dec 2009)

*Re: Impending Coup*



Deiseblue said:


> Why stop there ?
> Why not wave the edict on treason in front of a coterie of Bankers,Developers and Politicians ?


 
There is a strong case that these people committed treason as they have threatened the very existance of our State in its current form. Certainly their actions over the past years in terms of thumbing their noses at the State are very very unpatriotic.


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## Purple (18 Dec 2009)

*Re: Impending Coup*

David Begg is the leader of a lobby group. Accusing him of treason is a bit much. If anyone was to be charged with treason for the damage they have done to this country it should be Bertie Ahern.


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## thedaras (18 Dec 2009)

*Re: Impending Coup*



Purple said:


> David Begg is the leader of a lobby group. Accusing him of treason is a bit much. If anyone was to be charged with treason for the damage they have done to this country it should be Bertie Ahern.


plus 1


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## Deiseblue (18 Dec 2009)

*Re: Impending Coup*



Purple said:


> David Begg is the leader of a lobby group. Accusing him of treason is a bit much. If anyone was to be charged with treason for the damage they have done to this country it should be Bertie Ahern.


 Nobody on this thread accused David Begg of treason , sedition was the worst he was accused of .
I believe the difference is that he could only be drawn and quartered , he would be spared disembowelment - typical I say , the Government are too easy on Unions !


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## z107 (18 Dec 2009)

*Re: Impending Coup*



Purple said:


> David Begg is the leader of a lobby group. Accusing him of treason is a bit much. If anyone was to be charged with treason for the damage they have done to this country it should be Bertie Ahern.



+ 20Billion


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## soy (20 Dec 2009)

*Re: Impending Coup*



csirl said:


> There are FF members I know who will not even vote for their own party (and will not be renewing their membership). I think we'll see a big change in Irish politics with no place for gombeen man TDs.



But the problem is that FG and Labour have their own fair share of Gombeen men also


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