# I flew to Morocco without a valid visa



## TEH (27 Mar 2008)

_I have changed the title on this thread as it was misleading - Brendan_

I was flying via British Airways on flight BA 6922 from London Gatwick to  Marrakech Airport on 22 March 2008. It was a 3 hours and 25 mins journey excluding my connecting  flight from Dublin to London Gatwick in which the layover was another 4 and a  half hour.  All in all, I had traveled for about a total of 8 hours and 15 mins  from Dublin Airport to Marrakech.

Upon arriving at Marrakech Airport,  all the passengers were on the queue to get the passport stamped as there were  estimated 4 flights arrived at the same time.  As I was on the queue for almost  half an hour waiting for my turn to get my passport stamped, I was eager to  check into the hotel and explore Marrakech.  I also travelled with my partner in  which both of us are eager to enjoy the beauty of Morocco.  As I submitted my  Malaysian passport and my partner Irish passport, the immigration officer  flipped through the pages of my Malaysian passport and without any explanation  and probing questions, the immigration officer handed my passport over to a  gentleman standing behind her.  The gentleman took my travel document and  marching towards me and kept shouting at me in foreign language in which I did  not understand a single word.  I kept on probing for an explaination to this  gentleman whom I believe he is the policeman now and explaining to him that I  come here merely with my partner as  tourists.  This officer did not accept my  explanation and took me to outside of Menara Marrakech and forced me to get on  to the same flight back to London.  I was pleading for an alternative but with  no success. At the same time, the BA pilot came out from the cockpit and tried  to explain to the officer, however, he refused to listen.  With embarassement  and feeling totally helpless, I was asked to get on the British Airways flight  (BA6922) back to London.  I pleaded to the officer to allow me to hand over the  hotel reservation document to my Irish partner but I was refused. 

I found out later from one of the flight attendant that I need a visa to enter Morocco.

After landing at London Heathrow, BA had  arranged a flight for me back to Dublin on the next morning. I was stranded at  London Heathrow Airport for 6 hours prior to my flight back to Dublin.  All in  all, I had wasted 24 hours including the travelling time and waiting for my  flight.  

*In that case, am i entitled to claim BA based on the incompetence of the checked in staff of not able to understand the requirement of visa to enter Morocco?*


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## dtlyn (27 Mar 2008)

*Re: Ordeal With British Airways*



> *In that case, am i entitled to claim BA based on the incompetence of the checked in staff of not able to understand the requirement of visa to enter Morocco?*


 
I'd certainly hope not.

It's a fairly basic responsiblity to ensure you have the appropriate VISA and travel documentation for your journey.


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## EvilDoctorK (27 Mar 2008)

*Re: Ordeal With British Airways*

It's pretty clear in any Ts&Cs of any carrier - not just BA - that it's your responsibility to have the proper documentation to travel to the destination where you booked the ticket.  Yes airlines often check at check in  (largely to cover themselves as some countries like the UK can fine carriers large amounts for bringing people without proper documentation) ... but this doesn't absolve you of the basic requirement to have a visa and have your own documentation in order.

It's not fair of you to blame this on BA ... while it's unfortunate and certainly a horrible experience it's essentially your fault not theirs.


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## Afuera (27 Mar 2008)

*Re: Ordeal With British Airways*



TEH said:


> *In that case, am i entitled to claim BA based on the incompetence of the checked in staff of not able to understand the requirement of visa to enter Morocco?*


I doubt you have a case here to be honest.

You should have checked whether a visa was required for citizens of your country to enter Morocco before you left. This is almost certainly printed on the terms and conditions when you purchased the flights.

Either way you look at it, you were not going to be able to enter Morocco as you failed to do that bit of research beforehand. Would you really have been any happier if BA had flat out refused to let you get on the flight in the first place?

I think it might be a bit much to expect check-in staff to be experts on the multitude of permutations that exist between the visa requirements for citizens of every country in the world and the destinations they fly to.


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## Lauren (27 Mar 2008)

*Re: Ordeal With British Airways*

Its your responsibility to check visa regulations and I would not be surprised if BA tried to claim the cost of the unbooked return flights to both London and Dublin.


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## jhegarty (27 Mar 2008)

*Re: Ordeal With British Airways*

I assume you VISA was missed because you checked through from Dublin to Marrakech (I presume the Airlingus code-share) where they may not be aware of the visa requirements of your final destination...

Either way BA did everything that could to help you... the pilot got involved on your side, they flew you back on the next flight home.... I can't see what else an airline could do for you ?


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## Lauren (27 Mar 2008)

*Re: Ordeal With British Airways*



jhegarty said:


> I assume you VISA was missed because you checked through from Dublin to Marrakech


 
Visa was missed by the OP. The airline have no responsiblity to check for the visa. It is up to the traveller to have all the required documentation in place. Airlines usually check for their own benefit so that they don't have to carry a passenger on the return trip. OP was lucky there were available seats on the flight.


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## Guest127 (27 Mar 2008)

*Re: Ordeal With British Airways*

never visited Morocco but from above assume Irish citizens and probably UK ( and maybe all eu?) citizens dont require a visa. very hard to lay blame on airline staff in this case. they can't be expected to know the requirements each country requires from travellers from other countries. No doubt if you were travelling directly from Malaya to Morocco the check in staff would be aware of the requirements but in this case it would have been pretty well impossible for Irish/UK check in staff to be familiar with them. Most countries have a varied visa system ie Turkey doesn't require a visa from Malaysia (or Morocco for that matter) but Irish citizens have to pony up €10 on arrival. Sounds a horrible experience and I sympathise with you on that but don't blame the airline staff.
I related this story to a friend at work yesterday evening and the other person replied how lucky you were that it wasn't Ryanair as their return flight would have been gone long before you reached the  head of the queue.  made  me wonder though what exactly would they have done in a case like that?


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## SOM42 (28 Mar 2008)

*Re: Ordeal With British Airways*

The airline should have known that the OP was required to hold a visa.  In fact when an airline brings a visa required passenger to Ireland without a visa they get a €1500 fine on the spot.  This doubles if its not paid within a month.  Most countries have similar legislation so its in their own interest that they know the visa requirements for each country they fly to.  As to a refund its unlikely.  As previously stated visas are the passengers own responsibility also and the OP should have checked with the Moroccan Embassy before travelling.

The point about travelling with Ryanair is a good one.  The OP would have been held in custody until the next Ryanair flight(which may have been several days)  Not an appealing prospect!


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## quinno (28 Mar 2008)

*Re: Ordeal With British Airways*

I'd cut your losses and be thankful BA didn't charge you to fly back at such short notice... visas are your responsibility...


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## mathepac (28 Mar 2008)

*Re: Ordeal With British Airways*



cuchulainn said:


> ...very hard to lay blame on airline staff in this case. they can't be expected to know the requirements each country requires from travellers from other countries...


I don't agree. The airlines involved have a very clear responsibility at check-in time to ensure that passengers have the requisite travel documentation for ALL legs of their journey, particularly in these days of code-sharing.

As per previous posters, immigration officials in the destination country have the power to levy fines and the cost of a homeward voyage against the airline delivering passengers without proper travel documentation.

I believe strongly that OP has a case for BA and Aer Lingus to answer.



quinno said:


> I'd cut your losses and be thankful BA didn't charge you to fly back at such short notice... visas are your responsibility...



It is their responsibility as OP was taken on their flight to a destination without the correct clearances. They are also facing a fine.

There are several reasons for handing in a passport at check-in, but one of the main ones is to ensure that all the correct visas are in place for the passenger at their ultimate destination and at any interim stopovers. If they are not, then travel must be refused.

I believe strongly that OP has a case for BA and Aer Lingus to answer.


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## TreeTiger (28 Mar 2008)

*Re: Ordeal With British Airways*

OP, I feel for you, what a dreadful experience.  Unfortunately, like most people on this thread, I believe you will have no success should you take legal action against BA.

I Googled around a little and found this online book:
books.google.ie/books?id=0y72bRIDNFYC&pg=PA415&lpg=PA415&dq=travel+visa+responsibility+airline&source=web&ots=xBM76s08q1&sig=L-2SxCqafg9NrM1V6naCNvCRids&hl=en#PPA415,M1] 
 Hotel, Restaurant and Travel Law: A Preventive Approach by Cournoyer, Marshall & Morris. 

Read the section on "Liability for Consequences of Traveller's Lack of Visa" on page 413.  Two examples are given, in the first case, against BA, the plaintiff was denied boarding, while in the second case, against Iberia, the plaintiff ended up in custody in Turkey.  The plaintiffs lost in both cases.

Apparently airline tariffs provide that it is the traveller (and not the airline) who must take responsibility for determining what travel documents are required for travel to a destination, and it is also the traveller's responsibility to acquire such documentation.


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## EvilDoctorK (28 Mar 2008)

*Re: Ordeal With British Airways*



mathepac said:


> I believe strongly that OP has a case for BA and Aer Lingus to answer.



Don't think so no ... yes in some cases it is in the airline's interest to ensure that the passenger has the correct papers as otherwise they will be fined as has been pointed out. Whether there are fines for airlines in the case for Morocco or not I don't know (but I suspect there wouldn't be)

However this still in no way absovles the OP from the responsibility to ensure their own papers are in order . ... Yes the airline may (to cover themselves) check peoples passports / visas before departure .. but ultimately it's up to you to comply with the immigration requirements of the country you are travelling to.


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## wanderer (29 Mar 2008)

*Re: Ordeal With British Airways*

As a holder of a Malaysian passport the OP should be well aware visa requirements should be checked before travel, unless she hasn't flown anywhere else before??

Anyway, i think its a long shot trying to lay blame on the airline.
If however you booked through a travel agency which is an abta memeber you may some recourse against them.


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## Brianne (30 Mar 2008)

Personal Responsibility is the phrase that comes to mind. Instead of being thankful that he/she wasn't locked up and had to pay a huge fine, OP is looking to blame BA and get compensation. Maybe Michael O' Leary is right after all to just offer what he offers!!!


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## Simeon (31 Mar 2008)

As a person who has had to get a visa before ...... there is no excuse for not checking up on your status when you booked. Just consider yourself lucky at not being billed for your unscheduled returns. It will make an interesting post dinner story in twenty years time.


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## BOXtheFOX (31 Mar 2008)

TEH......Are you there?


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## dtlyn (31 Mar 2008)

*Re: Ordeal With British Airways*



mathepac said:


> I don't agree. The airlines involved have a very clear responsibility at check-in time to ensure that passengers have the requisite travel documentation for ALL legs of their journey, particularly in these days of code-sharing.....
> 
> There are several reasons for handing in a passport at check-in, but one of the main ones is to ensure that all the correct visas are in place for the passenger at their ultimate destination and at any interim stopovers. If they are not, then travel must be refused.


 
From a practical perspective this is a very diffcult thing to implement correctly. Take the case above of a Malaysian national travelling to Morroco and multiply it by the number of British Airways destinations plus possible source countries for London Heathrow. You've got a spaghetti tin of rules which may or may not be grey areas which would result in more problems than it solves. 

It's much much simpler for all parties involved if the onus remains on the passenger to check his visa status, fines for delivering a non-eligable passenger notwithstanding.


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## Bigbamboo (17 Nov 2008)

*A (similar) Ordeal With British Airways*



dtlyn said:


> From a practical perspective this is a very diffcult thing to implement correctly. Take the case above of a Malaysian national travelling to Morroco and multiply it by the number of British Airways destinations plus possible source countries for London Heathrow. You've got a spaghetti tin of rules which may or may not be grey areas which would result in more problems than it solves.
> 
> It's much much simpler for all parties involved if the onus remains on the passenger to check his visa status, fines for delivering a non-eligable passenger notwithstanding.



I've been reading this thread with great interest as I recently had a similar experience with BA. In my case it involved a flight to Mumbai for which I was allowed onto the flight without being asked to produce a valid entry visa at either check-in or final boarding. As a result, I flew to Mumbai and was detained by the Indian immigration authorities at the airport for two hours before being placed on the return BA flight. 

 While I accept that responsibility for obtaining a visa is mine, it seems to me that BA also has a responsibility to ensure that all required travel documents are presented at check-in, not just a ticket and passport. I'm not sure if this is a legal requirement, but BA customer services has since assured me that 'under no circumstances' would any passenger be allowed onto an international flight without a visa. Had this been asked to produce a visa - and then refused permission to fly - I could have re-booked the flight for a later date and obtained the necessary visa in the meantime. But as I was allowed onto the plane, my ticket was wasted on a pointless and highly stressful return journey to Mumbai.

BA's lax check-in procedures also caused me a great deal of stress and embarrassment which raises the possibilty that it might have failed in its Duty of Care.

For these reasons, I believe BA should at the very least accept a shared responsibilty for the problem and provide me with either a refund of the ticket or a replacement or a reasonable offer of some kind. Needless to say, when I suggested this to them I received a complete refusal.

You comments are welcome!


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## jhegarty (17 Nov 2008)

*Re: A (similar) Ordeal With British Airways*

What did you expect to happen when you arrived in India without a visa ?


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## bond-007 (17 Nov 2008)

*Re: A (similar) Ordeal With British Airways*

Some countries would grant temporary admission to allow the person to obtain the visa.


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## Bigbamboo (17 Nov 2008)

I am aware of that, but unfortunately India isn't one of them.


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## SunshineSupe (18 Nov 2008)

They have already "shared" your responsibility.  As many other posters have said:


 I'm pretty sure they would have paid a fine to the Indian government because of this; and
they put you on the return flight for which you weren't even booked to fly on.
It's tough, but my understanding is that it is the traveller's responsibility to know ALL requirements of the country of destination/transit.

In the future, try to use something like this to assist your research on visa requirements etc before you go (this is from IATA), but still double and triple check with embassy sites etc:

[broken link removed]


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## dereko1969 (18 Nov 2008)

this is like so many other posts on here lately - It's Always Someone Else's Fault - maybe it should be a new acronym IASEF, everyone is looking to blame someone else instead of taking responsibility for their own actions. using words such as 'duty of care' to blame BA when you didn't bother your barney checking out your obligations prior to flying to india is just passing the buck, you messed up you take the punishment.


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## Simeon (18 Nov 2008)

Well said, dereko.


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## truthseeker (18 Nov 2008)

dereko1969 said:


> this is like so many other posts on here lately - It's Always Someone Else's Fault - maybe it should be a new acronym IASEF, everyone is looking to blame someone else instead of taking responsibility for their own actions. using words such as 'duty of care' to blame BA when you didn't bother your barney checking out your obligations prior to flying to india is just passing the buck, you messed up you take the punishment.


 
Excellent post and great new acronym, it could even be shortened to give a nice handy 3 letter acronym - SEF.


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## Bigbamboo (18 Nov 2008)

dereko1969 said:


> this is like so many other posts on here lately - It's Always Someone Else's Fault - maybe it should be a new acronym IASEF, everyone is looking to blame someone else instead of taking responsibility for their own actions. using words such as 'duty of care' to blame BA when you didn't bother your barney checking out your obligations prior to flying to india is just passing the buck, you messed up you take the punishment.



Hi Dereko1969 (and similar replies)

I have always accepted full responsibility for not obtaining a visa and, as a seasoned traveller,  am still slightly amazed at my stupidity. I am not blaming BA because I didn't have a visa, but I am wondering if they should at least share responsibility for my wasted journey as it broke international agreements and its own internal check-in guideleines by allowing me onto their plane without checking all my travel documents.

BA's Terms & Conditions are very clear about the responsibility of passengers to arrive at check-in with the correct travel documents, but nothing is mentioned about its responsibility not to allow someone to fly without these documents. It is on this issue alone that I am seeking people's views.


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## dereko1969 (18 Nov 2008)

Has this question not already been answered on the first page? I suspect that as you flew to Mumbai that you initially boarded in Ireland and perhaps there was a code-share to Heathrow/Gatwick? As was pointed out by somebody else in relation to the Morocco incident your initial check-in was done in Ireland and you were checked straight through to Mumbai so perhaps you should sue Aer Rianta and/or Aer Lingus too? Then add in the Indian Goverment for having such an outrageous immigration policy? Your Internet provider for allowing you to book online without forcing you to become aware of your own obligations? Or the travel agent?
BA should not have allowed you on the flight for their own reasons as it would leave them open to a fine and the possibility of having to bump someone from the return flight. However, that does not mean they are liable to refund you at all, if it were Ryanair you would have been charged the price on the day for the flight, so I think you got away lightly.


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## Bigbamboo (18 Nov 2008)

Hi Dereko1969

I flew directly to Mumbai from London Heathrow.


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## majik (18 Nov 2008)

Two words for travelling: Never presume.

Airlines will check your travel documents when there is a financial onus on them to do so. This is the case when you are flying to a destination where the fines are big US/Canada/Europe. I doubt the fines are big in either in Morocco or India, but I'm just presuming!


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## Bigbamboo (18 Nov 2008)

Thanks for your reply, majik, and I can tell you that a BA rep at Heathrow told me when I returned  that the Indian fine would be considerable. Your response doesn't address my query, however, as what I am trying to find out is this: do airlines have a legal responsibility to check all required travel documents for a passenger before allowing them onto their plane? If they do have this responsibility, then passengers like me can claim some kind of compensation.

Does anybody have a view on this?


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## majik (18 Nov 2008)

Sorry bigbamboo what I clearly meant to say was that most if not all airlines will have 'no liability' whatsoever, all of this is contained in every airlines 'Conditions of Carraige'.

Here are three examples

Aer Lingus:


> 13.1.2 We shall not be liable for the consequences to any Passenger resulting from his or her failure to obtain such documents or visas or to comply with such laws, regulations, orders, demands, requirements, rules or instructions.


British Airways:


> 13a3) We will not be liable to you if:
> 
> * you do not have all necessary passports, visas, health certificates and other travel documents
> * your passport, visa, health certificates or other travel documents are invalid or out of date or
> * you have not obeyed all relevant laws.


Cathay Pacifc


> 14.1.3 We will not be liable to you (i) if you do not have the necessary passports,
> visas, health certificates and other travel documents; (ii) your passport,
> visa, health certificates or other travel documents are invalid or out of date;
> or (iii) you have not obeyed all relevant laws, regulations, orders,
> demands, requirements, rules or instructions.


No offence to the OP or anybody else but I don't know why people don't do a bit of research on the ould interweb first before posting!


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## Bigbamboo (19 Nov 2008)

majik said:


> Sorry bigbamboo what I clearly meant to say was that most if not all airlines will have 'no liability' whatsoever, all of this is contained in every airlines 'Conditions of Carraige'.
> 
> Here are three examples
> 
> ...



Hi majik

Thanks very much indeed for the interest you are showing in my 'case'. It seems to me that the examples you have quoted (I had already checked BA's terms) all refer to an airline's liability for consequential loss, etc in the event that it refuses to allow a passenger to travel on one of its planes because he/she has not provided the necessary travel documents. 

But what if it allows the passenger to travel without these documents because it failed to check if the passenger had them? I would have thought that in breaking international regulations and its own strict check-in procedures, it can be argued that BA, at least in part, is liable for any consequential loss and/or emotional distress experienced by the passenger. In short, although I am to blame for turning up at Heathrow without an Indian visa, BA should accept its share of blame for allowing me to travel.

Needless to say, airlines don't mention this in their terms of carriage, but that doesn't mean they aren't liable. Could be an interesting test case.


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## majik (19 Nov 2008)

I am sorry Bigbamboo but I have read BAs 'Conditions of Carraige' section 13 over and over again



And nothing refers to the 'consequential loss' you speak off. 

'No liability' applies even if they let you board the aircraft and arrive at your destination. I don't think this stipulation  could be any clearer. There is nothing in that section stating that _they_ are liable for anything.

Airlines check travel documents when they are requested to do so by government and as per their internal guidelines. They do not check them for the benefit of passengers. Yes they may have broken internal guidelines but the 'Conditions of Carraige' is your contract with them, nothing else.

In laymans terms that section 13 states that all the responsibility is on the passenger to have their travel documents in order, before, during and after the flight. The airline is not liable regardless of whether or not they request/look at those said documents. Section 13 does say you have to present those documents before check-in BUT DOES NOT say that those said documents need to be *validated* by an airline representative. This then absolves them of any liability in your case where you travelled with invalid documents.

Bigbambo I am just trying to save you some time and money. Airlines' conditions of carraige are watertight, pursing this matter will get you no where and you'll probably be out of pocket further. Take it as a learning experience and move on. Trust me.


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## TreeTiger (19 Nov 2008)

Bigbamboo said:


> BA's Terms & Conditions are very clear about the responsibility of passengers to arrive at check-in with the correct travel documents, but nothing is mentioned about its responsibility not to allow someone to fly without these documents. It is on this issue alone that I am seeking people's views.



_ I think the Terms & Conditions are perfectly clear as to what the responsibilities of the passenger are, and that, so far as I am concerned, is the issue.
A section of the link posted by majik says:_

"*13a1)* *You* (not *us*) must: 

check the relevant entry requirements for any country *you* are visiting and
present to *us* all passports, visas, health certificates and other travel documents needed for *your* journey."
"*13a3)* *We* will not be liable to *you* if: 

*you* do not have all necessary passports, visas, health certificates and other travel documents
*you*r passport, visa, health certificates or other travel documents are invalid or out of date or
*you* have not obeyed all relevant laws."
*"13b)* *You must present to us valid passports, visas, health certificates and other travel documents*

Before *you* travel, *you* must present to us all passports, visas, health certificates and other travel documents *you* need for *you*r journey. If *we* ask, *you* must: 

allow *us* to take and keep copies of them and
deposit *your* passport or equivalent travel document with a member of the crew of the aircraft for safe custody until the end of the flight.
 *13c)* *What happens when you* *are refused entry to a country*

If *you* are refused entry to a country, *you* must pay: 

any fine, penalty or charge imposed on *us* by the government concerned
any detention costs *we* are charged
the fare for transporting *you* back to *your* place of departure and
any other costs *we* reasonably pay or agree to pay.
 *We* will not refund to *you* the fare for carrying *you* to the place where *you* *were* denied entry.

*13d)* *You must repay us fines, detention costs and other charges*

If *we* have to pay any fine, penalty, fee, charge or costs (such as detention costs) because *you* have failed to obey any laws or regulations, or other travel requirements of the country to which *you* have travelled to or to produce the necessary documents needed by that country, *you* must repay *us* the amount *we* have paid as a result. *We* may take this amount from the value of any unused part of *your* *ticket*, or any of *your* money *we* have in our possession."

_ Check in queues at airports are bad enough as it is, but if everybody's visa paperwork had to be checked out as well I think it would be totally unworkable.
A hard lesson for Bigbamboo, but I can't see how the airline is at fault.
_


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## Dublinchick (13 Jan 2009)

I know somebody who had a smiliar experience when flying to Mumbai with BA.  They travelled 36 hours from Jacksonville Florida to Mumbai only to be put on the same plane back to make the journey back to the US.   I couldn't believe that they got annoyed with the airline when they should have taken the time to check whtat the entry requirements to India were....


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## Killter (13 Jan 2009)

Im sorry, but checking wether you need a visa to enter a country is your responsibilty and yours alone-it's a pretty basic concept lads, come on.


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## jhegarty (13 Jan 2009)

Almost forgot about this thread. 

Going to Morocco next month , guess what the first thing I checked was .....


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## bond-007 (13 Jan 2009)

Good man!


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## Danmo (15 Jan 2009)

*Re: Ordeal With British Airways*

It's the airline's responsiblity....they are fined as stated above


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## bond-007 (15 Jan 2009)

*Re: Ordeal With British Airways*

It is both.


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