# Key Post: Are Eircom Dialup Internet conning us all?



## Marion (18 Mar 2003)

Hi,
I've used Dialup Internet with a 56K modem for years now.
I've just been to Eircoms site an checked their Demo on speeds.
It turnsout that their Demo for a 56k Modem goes about 10 times as fast as it does for real on my PC.
When i am downloading the fastest that internet explorer shows is 4k/s.
After some asking around i find that my friends get much faster download speeds than i do.
Apparently the problem is that Eircom Split lines with other phone users and don't tell you this.
So you might only have 1/4 of the bandwidth in your house.
This is unaccepltable.  Does this happen to anyone else.
Can you all post your top speeds for downloading(as shown by internet explorer when downloading).
And maybe there are some experts out there who can help with this.  What should IE be showing in the download window?


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## PhillySteak (18 Mar 2003)

*Bits & Bytes*

One thing that might explain some of the difference is that the 56k Eircom refer to is 56 kilobits / second.
Internet Explorer, as far as I can recall, specifies in kilobytes / second, where 1 byte = 8 bits.

So when IE says 4k/s, it means 4 kilobytes/second, which is 32 kilobits/second, which while still not great, is within shouting distance of the 56 kilobits/second Eircom are promising.

The 56k is also a theoritical maximum, based on line quality, distance from exchange, your modem, and other variables.

Finally, I would take the Eircom demo with a pinch of salt, as that's all it is, a demo.

Regards,

Philly


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## ClubMan (19 Mar 2003)

*Re: Bits & Bytes*

*So when IE says 4k/s, it means 4 kilobytes/second, which is 32 kilobits/second, which while still not great, is within shouting distance of the 56 kilobits/second Eircom are promising.*

Actually it takes about 10 bits to transmit an 8 bit byte over a modem (start bits, stop bits, parity etc.) although compression on the line could effectively reduce this down. Then again the connection and throughput figures reported by many end user tools are not always that accurate or reliable. Have a look at  for some tips on diagnosing dial-up connection problems. [broken link removed] provides some good tutorials/overviews about how V.90/92 56K connections work - or don't in some cases. 808hi.com is another good one. Don't blame the telco until you have evidence to back it up!


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## garrettod (24 Mar 2003)

*....*

Hi,

I'm not a techie, but I do think the original poster has made some very fair comments / raised some good questions.

Are Eircom making fools of us ?

I think we should only have to pay 1/4 price, if we are getting a split line, for instance.

I also use a Dial Up on Eircom, which is always slower than it's counter part from Ulster TV or Esat... I suspect they do this on purpose to be quite honest, as the longer it takes for a new page to download, the longer we are online & then the longer they charge all dial up users for the call !

When, oh when, will we be getting flat rate in Ireland (& I mean at a reasonable price !) ?

regards

G>


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## rainyday (24 Mar 2003)

*Re: ....*

Hi G - You do know that both UTV & EsatBT are offering near flat-rate off-peak deals at reasonable prices (from €20 a month, I think), don't you?


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## ClubMan (24 Mar 2003)

*Re: ....*

*I think we should only have to pay 1/4 price, if we are getting a split line, for instance*

But it hasn't been established here beyond doubt that eircom or any telco actually _does_ "split" lines as described above. Maybe somebody in the know could comment? Personally I doubt that they do since the primary purpose of a domestic phone line is to carry voice traffic (in the frequency range c. 300-3200 Hz as far as I remember(?)) and if lines were split then we'd all sound very strange on the phone. Conversely, because it was never primarily designed to carry data, there are generally lots of potential causes, other than "infrastructural" issues, for poor data throughput


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## badzae (5 Apr 2003)

*Eircom Dialup con/scam?*

I use Eircom for my internet connection. Its free so maybe I shouldn't be complaining but it annoys the heck out of me when I connect during the day if I just want to read a few e-mails on my hotmail account. Every time I log on it takes 1 minute and 15 seconds for Eircom to verify my password! Most sites I access that need to verify a password never take more than about 5 or 6 seconds. So while I'm sitting there twiddling my thumbs Eircom are charging me for the time it takes them to verify the password since I'm also using Eircom as my phone line supplier. One minute and 15 seconds may not matter so much during off peak hours but at peak hours it certainly adds up.


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## ClubMan (5 Apr 2003)

*Re: Eircom Dialup con/scam?*

For what it's worth, I use UTV Internet for non subscription dial-up access from home and find connection quite responsive and reliable (albeit off peak).


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## broad (5 Apr 2003)

*..*

with this new broadband for houselhods by eircom does it come through the phone line or is it something different. Thanks for replies. ClubMan you are a mine of information. hope you answer this. I see your name on the list at the bottom.


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## ClubMan (5 Apr 2003)

*Re: ..*

Thanks for the kind comments. 

See the  for details of this product. It's ADSL based so it effectively comes into your house via the normal telephone line although it depends on certain technology being in place between you and the exchange and you also need some additional equipment (a splitter, an ADSL modem (€?), and an ethernet network interface card (c. €10-€20) - I think eircom only supply the splitter as standard and you have to buy the other two separately from them or elsewhere - ) between your computer and the incoming line. You can use the line for data and voice calls at the same time and the interenet connectivity is "always on" - i.e. no dial-up delays. Of course being always on means that you need to ensure that you have adequate protection from attacks in place (e.g. firewall, virus checker (as ever!) etc.) if eircom don't take care of this.

Hope this helps.


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## badzae (11 Apr 2003)

*.*

Clubman
is there something wrong with that eircom i-Stream page link? I can't seem to get through. Keep getting a can't find server message.


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## ClubMan (11 Apr 2003)

*Re: .*

Worked fine for me just now.


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## shaggy (11 Apr 2003)

*iStream*

The small print quotes a surcharge of 3.6 cents per megabyte over a download allowance of 3 gigabytes (no period specified). Is that per download ? And has anyone any idea how much the surcharge might work out at for a user accessing content-rich stuff (film, sports clips, downloading music, etc) ? Thanks.


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## rainyday (11 Apr 2003)

*Re: iStream*

Hi Shaggy - I don't think anyone can really answer this question for you - It's a real 'how long is a piece of string' question. You might want to try monitoring your current usage over a couple weeks and noting the amounts of data transferred upstream & downstream. This would give you an idea if the cap is likely to impact you.

All - Note that EsatBT released their competing service yesterday - see [broken link removed] for more details. There is no charge for the modem and a slightly lower monthly fee to Eircom.


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## askandaskagain (24 Apr 2003)

*eircom*

Guys
Eircom do split lines.
It is illegal to do it now, but if your phone was installed 3 or more years ago then it could still be split and there is nothing you can do about it.  It was common practice a few years ago.
I think that 1 line can carry 8 voice calls.
If you have 1/8th of a line then you have 1/8th the bandwidth for internet.
Its actually more common for 2 - 4 splits i'm told.
You can check this out at boards.ie.
Shaggy, i bet you find that if you get broadband you will use the net a lot more and download a lot more data.
Therefore checking your bandwidth usage on 56k is no comparison at all.
Eircoms RADSL is available at €55 per month in vat.
You do need a modem and the do supply the splitters.
Other companies will be reselling this product.
e.g Esat and Via.


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## splitter (25 Apr 2003)

*re: eircom*

dear askandaskagain!!

if eircom split lines (does that mean share with other customers) they probably can do it, as all they really provide is a voice telephony service, which does'nt require the full bandwidth available on the local copper loop.

it is worth knowing that if you are on a shared/split line, regardless who your ISP is, you are going to experience sloooow internet dial-up speeds.

however, if you opt for ISDN/HiSpeed or the new broadband i-stream service, eircom would have to give you a copper loop all the way to your house, if within milage limit. 

maybe you could then cancel and still have an un-split/shared line.???


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## ClubMan (25 Apr 2003)

*Re: eircom*

*I think that 1 line can carry 8 voice calls.
If you have 1/8th of a line then you have 1/8th the bandwidth for internet.*

My understanding is that any phone line that can carry normal voice quality traffic (in the frequency range 300-3200Hz) may be capable of carrying data traffic at standard dial-up speeds (e.g. 28.8Kbps, 33.6Kbps etc.) and possibly up to c. 56Kbps (depending on the infrastructural details between your phone connection, your local exchange and the ISP). I say "may be capable" because, as I previously mentioned here and elsewhere, the specific connection and throughput speeds obtained depend on _many_ factors. If a telco "splits lines" (whatever that means exactly) then I don't think that this _necessarily_ means that you will only get a fraction of the usual data bandwidth. As I mentioned above, if the voice quality on the line was poor then that's a good indicator that data throughput will be compromised. However if it sounds "normal" then I would have assumed that line bandwidth was not reduced in any way. 

Again, I'm open to correction/elucidation on the technicalities of the telephone infrastructure and how they may impinge on data throughput.


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## Flat Rate (25 Apr 2003)

*UTV*

I've recently moved to UTV.  As I type I've a 49.2k connection - don't recall ever getting that with eircom.  Flat rate package is €10.99 per month for 30 hours off-peak.  What's more it's also it's 25% cheaper @ 0.95c per min off peak (Eircom 1.26c per min).  

By the way eircom.net no longer discount their ISP calls since they changed to a 1892 number.


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## ClubMan (25 Apr 2003)

*Re: UTV*

*As I type I've a 49.2k connection*

As I mentioned before initial _connection_ speed and _actual throughput_ are two separate things. Your modem may initially connect at, say, 49.2Kbps but while in use the actual throughput may be lower (e.g. due to line noise, errors, retries, renegotiation to a lower speed etc.) or higher (e.g. due to compression, renegotiation to a higher speed etc.). To get a more accurate picture of actual throughput you need something like the _VitalAgent_ utility mentioned in one of the topics that I linked to above.


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## split (25 Apr 2003)

*Re: eircom*

>>If a telco "splits lines" (whatever that means exactly) then I don't think that this necessarily means that you will only get a fraction of the usual data bandwidth.<<

"splitting lines" in this context means utilising a single copper cable pair (local loop) from the terminating exchange/switch to the customers premises, which would normally be provided per customer if plant is available, using this copper to actually carry the connections of 2-8 actual customer lines, by way of a "digital subs carrier system". 

these customers work into the carrier system in the first instance, and from there to the terminating Exchange. Therefore they do not have an individual local copper loop to the Switch.

This involves multiplexing, and would have implications for bandwidth available to each individual connected to the carrier system. 

obviously it would not improve the spectrum available per individual connection.

also in this context, there is only one telco, i.e. eircom, as they control the local loop almost entirely.

all other telcos utilise the same local loop to the same eircom switch, with actual selection of telco by means of carrier pre-select (cps), which means that customers calls are delivered over the transmission network from the eircom switch to the selected telco (no local loop).


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## ClubMan (25 Apr 2003)

*Re: eircom*

Thanks _split_ - that's the most detailed explanation of the "splitting" issue that I've seen here to date. Does this splitting have a perceptable detrimental effect on the quality of voice traffic - e.g. is there less than the normal bandwidth available for voice traffic and/or do such lines suffer more from crossed lines, feedback etc.? How is data bandwidth affected - is it a simple case of two way splitting halving it or is it, as I suspect, more involved than that?


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## another split (28 Apr 2003)

*re: splitter*

>>Does this splitting have a perceptable detrimental effect on the quality of voice traffic<<

voice traffic would be ok, but there is a considerable detrimental effect on data/internet connection speeds above 28k, which is as good as it gets under the carrier/pair gain systems.

basically, u have a 64k channel muxed down to facilitate at least two connexions, which meanz the max data speed for each of 32k, most likely 28k when overhead is taken into account.

for info on pair gain, see here "[broken link removed]

just substitute eircom for Telstra......


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## ClubMan (28 Apr 2003)

*Re: re: splitter*

Thanks a lot for that information - very interesting.


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## ClubMan (29 Apr 2003)

*Re: re: splitter*

Any idea how prevalent the use of this approach to "splitting" lines by _eircom_ is? Would this be something that Comreg would be interested in as seems to have been the case, judging by the article referenced abovt, with _Telstra_ and the Australian telecommunications regulators?


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## shufty (1 Oct 2004)

*over 10% of all lines in Ireland are split*

And its up to 50% in certain rural areas . The local engineer showed me a report on it a year back. 

The worst hound of a splitter I ever saw was in Tipp . Eircom had 16 lines hanging off it and each was able to get PRECISELY 12k speed for internet, no more and no less . 

They all pay the top whack line rental for this pice of crap though


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