# Dundrum Town Centre ?



## zag (4 Mar 2005)

Is it just me, or does the concept of a shopping centre being named "Town Centre" seem stupid and somewhat insulting to the consumers intelligence ?

Dundrum Town Centre is making the existing real town centre redundant and Blanchardstown Town Centre isn't actually near the centre of Blanchardstown and isn't a town centre.

Maybe it's just me.

z


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## ClubMan (4 Mar 2005)

Anybody else consider the hype (free advertising) in various media about a new shopping centre a bit bizarre? :\


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## gerry (4 Mar 2005)

*re*

The shopping centre is 1/2 kilometre long and another say 1/4 to village centre. Any Luas I passed today was packed to the brim. I queued for 15 minutes this evening just to get on !


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## daltonr (4 Mar 2005)

*Re: re*

Does anyone know why Europe's biggest shopping center was built slap bang in the middle of a traffic nightmare on the side of a Motorway that's already overused?

One good thing, it's getting much easier to get parking in the City Center on weekends.  

We're in the twilight between the shoppers abandoning the city center and the shops abandoning it.   Enjoy it while it lasts.

-Rd


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## Murt10 (4 Mar 2005)

Two yo-yos an hour to park in the car park there. 

They will be waiting a long time for me to go shopping there. But then again maybe they don't really want skinflints like me.

Murt


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## rainyday (4 Mar 2005)

City centre seems to have survived the opening of the Square, Liffey Valley & Blanch without falling into rack & ruin - I can't see Dundrum having that much effect.


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## purple (4 Mar 2005)

I would love to agree with you rainyday but the Dundrum mall seems to target the same consumer group as the Grafton street area. I would love to know how the rents compare between the two areas. (ok, love is a bit strong; I would have a passing interest.)


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## Janet (4 Mar 2005)

Isn't it being called Town Centre because it's not just shops?  It will house a theatre - it was recently announced that this will now not be a fully commercial venue but rather will be available to local groups.  I was also told that the library is being moved over to the centre - this came up in the context of a discussion of what might happen to the Carnegie building which is currently the library - has anyone else heard anything about this?


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## redstar (5 Mar 2005)

*centres*

Hope the road signs for the Dundrum centre are not as confusing as the ones near Blanch. I've seen signs for the "Town Centre" (the actual Blanch town centre) and "Blanchardstown Town Centre" for the shopping centre :lol


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## TarfHead (5 Mar 2005)

> Anybody else consider the hype (free advertising) in various media about a new shopping centre a bit bizarre?



I agree.
I can only comment on what has been in the Irish Times. Normally when they're plugging a product, they print *Commercial Feature* along the top of the page.
For the uncritical fluff pieces about DTC, they treated it as news.
Pandering to their demographic I suppose ?

I also found ironic the representatives from various faiths conducting a blessing at the opening. The passing of torch from the old religion to the new. The DTC is a cathedral to the dominant faith in this country - conspicuous consumption.


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## fatherdougalmaguire (5 Mar 2005)

*Re: centres*

Can anyone confirm the parking rates for the centre? I believe there was a bit of a hoo-ha with staff having to pay for parking too.


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## car (5 Mar 2005)

*parking*

3400 car park spaces.
4000 staff.
75000 visitors on the first day. 
Go figure.

Management at Dundrum Town Centre have predicted that a fifth of all visitors to the mall will travel by Luas – which is just a 12-minute ride from the city centre.

Cant find any info on their town centre website on car parking.

[broken link removed] has 3500 car park spaces too and is free.  Some vouchers on that liffey valley website too if youre heading out there, god loves a googler


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## rainyday (5 Mar 2005)

*Re: parking*



> 3400 car park spaces.
> 4000 staff.


So what's the problem? Assuming staff are advised up-front that they won't have parking, I don't see a problem here. As long as we cling on to the practice that EVERYONE commutes by car, we're going to continue to have traffic mayhem. The Dundrum centre is as good as it gets when it comes to public transport links. So staff don't get a parking spot....


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## Biggles (5 Mar 2005)

*Re: parking*



> So what's the problem?



The problem, I suppose, is that the workers have to park somewhere and at the moment they seem to be parking in the residential areas which were neither designed for this volume of demand nor have the capacity to deal with it.  It's all very well telling the workers they can't park within the centre, but unless they're given alternatives they'll just take over the streets.  I'm sure they don't all live on the Luas line.


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## ClubMan (5 Mar 2005)

*Re: parking*

*at the moment they seem to be parking in the residential areas*

Legally or illegally? If it's the latter then call the clampers.


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## Biggles (5 Mar 2005)

*Re: parking*

The trouble is that it might be legal but it's irresponsible (which isn't against the law.)

For example, on my road there aren't any double yellow lines so cars are technically free to park on both sides simultaneously.  The residents have never done so because it is quite evident that it would prevent emergency vehicles, delivery trucks etc from gaining reasonable access.

Yet the non-residents seem to think they can use the streets as THEY see fit.  Residents should have reasonable entitlement to have the residential aspect of their estates maintained without it being compromised by those whose sole interest in the area is the unmarked tarmac.


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## sueellen (5 Mar 2005)

"Assuming staff are advised up-front that they won't have parking"

The big question is, have they been advised?  I heard one lady describe the other day how her daughter who is working there could not get her usual parking spot because the builders were working on the car park.


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## rainyday (5 Mar 2005)

> the workers have to park somewhere


You're missing the point. This is the key assumption that I am challenging. They don't HAVE to park somewhere - they could come to work by public transport. Even if they don't live on the LUAS line, they could still come to work by public transport. It might require a mixed mode journey, with a bit of walking or cycling, a bit of bussing and/or a bit of LUASing, but it can be done. We can't continue to expect that EVERY job will provide a parking space for EVERY employee.


> The big question is, have they been advised?


Hi Suellen - Is it unreasonable to think that employees should ask these questions up front and not wait for someone else to inform them?

I was concerned to see the picture in yesterday's Irish Times of the 10 am opening had 2 girls in secondary school uniform bursting into the centre. Doing the practical work for their Bus Org course, I presume....


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## fatherdougalmaguire (5 Mar 2005)

I won't name names but my significant other went for a part-time position and it wasn't until late in the training process that they were informed of the situation - not during the interview process. As a result they were still recruiting up to a week or so ago even though they had started at the beginning of this year. If she had known at the outset she wouldn't have spent a week training for the post.

Granted, though, it suited the people who are within public transport earshot of the place and that's fair enough. Maybe it was just this employer who saw fit to leave this information until after the interview stage.


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## rainyday (5 Mar 2005)

When did she ask?


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## fatherdougalmaguire (5 Mar 2005)

We are fortunate to frequent places like local supermarkets, shopping centres like The Square, Liffey Valley and Blanch where parking is free so she, and most people who went for the interview, assumed it was free. The only shopping centres we've encountered that require you to pay for parking are Jervis and Arnotts but even then I don't believe they are used by just shoppers. Although they are named after shopping centres in close proximity I believe the serve the environs as well. I don't see any parallel here with Dundrum where the car park would appear to be pupose built for the shopping centre.


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## Biggles (5 Mar 2005)

> they could come to work by public transport.



Yes, but in the real world this isn't always practically possible. 

There are numerous reasons why public transport is not a viable option for some people.  The quality and frequency of service; the requirement to drop children to schools, creches, etc, are just some of the factors that make it more convenient for staff in these circumstances to to use their private cars. 

It's all very well advising staff not to use their cars but without offering VIABLE alternatives, the inevitable consequence is that they will continue to rely on their cars and park them as near to their work as they can for free.

And that represents an unreasonable burden on local residents.


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## ClubMan (5 Mar 2005)

*There are numerous reasons why public transport is not a viable option for some people. *

The corollorary of that would seem to be that it is an option for some other people, in particular some people who currently don't avail of the option. I presume that this is what _Rainyday_ meant - and not that everybody should necessarily take public transport.


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## sueellen (5 Mar 2005)

Hi Rainyday,

"So what's the problem? Assuming staff are advised up-front that they won't have parking, I don't see a problem here"

"Is it unreasonable to think that employees should ask these questions up front and not wait for someone else to inform them?"

I do feel that employers are well aware when recruiting that lack of parking facilities for staff will most likely be a problem for those who need to travel from far afield.  IMHO they should therefore forewarn them in advance and thus save time possibly wasted for both sides.  Training is costly these days.

We are all aware of the congestion and how it has come about but for somebody who is considering part-time hours it can be the difference between making money or just a break-even situation.


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## rainyday (5 Mar 2005)

> Yes, but in the real world this isn't always practically possible.
> 
> There are numerous reasons why public transport is not a viable option for some people. The quality and frequency of service; the requirement to drop children to schools, creches, etc, are just some of the factors that make it more convenient for staff in these circumstances to to use their private cars.


Oh come on. Don't blame the children. It is possible to do the creche run on public transport. One of my colleagues brings her toddler on the LUAS with her in the morning, pushes the buggy over to the other side of the industrial estate and drops the little one in the creche before returning to work. You've actually hit the key issue when you refer to 'more convenient' - Yes, it probably is more convenient to take the car. But there is a price attached to this convenience, in terms of the environment, provision of parking, provision of road space etc. We can't keep assuming that we can always have our single-occupancy tin-box to bring us to/from work each day.



> It's all very well advising staff not to use their cars but without offering VIABLE alternatives, the inevitable consequence is that they will continue to rely on their cars and park them as near to their work as they can for free.
> 
> And that represents an unreasonable burden on local residents.


The residents problem is easily solved. As they did when the LUAS opened, they moved to residents parking permits in certain areas near the stations to prevent park & ride. This could be done in the areas surrounding the shopping centre with relative ease. I did see one car parked on a pavement near the centre on Thursday which had earned itself a nice yellow Garda parking ticket on the windscreen.



> I do feel that employers are well aware when recruiting that lack of parking facilities for staff will most likely be a problem for those who need to travel from far afield. IMHO they should therefore forewarn them in advance and thus save time possibly wasted for both sides. Training is costly these days.


I fully agree that that the employers should have highlighted this issue in advance. However, I do think there is an equal duty on the employee to ask these questions, and not wait passivly for the word to be delivered to them on a silver platter.



> We are fortunate to frequent places like local supermarkets, shopping centres like The Square, Liffey Valley and Blanch where parking is free so she, and most people who went for the interview, assumed it was free. The only shopping centres we've encountered that require you to pay for parking are Jervis and Arnotts but even then I don't believe they are used by just shoppers. Although they are named after shopping centres in close proximity I believe the serve the environs as well. I don't see any parallel here with Dundrum where the car park would appear to be pupose built for the shopping centre.


The parallel is fairly obvious. Square, Liffey Valley & Blanch - all open air parking. Jervis, Arnotts and Dundrum centre - all multi-story indoor parking (though there is one outdoor area at Dundrum). Have you ever seen any multi-story car-park anywhere in the world that was free of charge?


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## zag (6 Mar 2005)

rainyday - Dunnes multistorey carpark in Cornelscourt is free of charge, but I do agree with your substantive point.  Also, Frascati and Blackrock shopping centre car parks are not free and not really multi-storey.

Dundrum and Blackrock are however beside public transport facilities and presumably they charge because otherwise people would (did) use their carparks as park and ride facilities.

I could easily see that people would park in Dundrums new shopping centre and get the Luas into town if it was not chargable.

It seems illogical to me for anyone to assume there is free car parking with a job unless they are specifically told this.  Would they also expect a free coke machine, or a free shower room ?  All these things are nice to have, but are not essential for the job.  If an employer provides them then this is (might be) good, but if they don't provide them they are not pulling a fast one on anyone.

People should remember that this centre is easily accessible by public transport.  It's not as if it is miles and miles from anywhere.  There are 2 Luas stops and a very good bus service covering both the routes out through Sandyford and between Tallaght and Dun Laoghaire.  I would suggest that it possibly has some of the better through public transport connections of the larger shopping centres.

z


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## fatherdougalmaguire (6 Mar 2005)

> Have you ever seen any multi-story car-park anywhere in the world that was free of charge?


Well there's The Square for a start ...


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## rainyday (6 Mar 2005)

Ok - if you want to play silly buggers with semantics to avoid addressing the substantive issue, that's fine with me. I'll play silly buggers too.

Have you ever come across any shopping centre where the majority of the parking was multi-story from the time the centre opened where the multi-story parking was free?


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## fatherdougalmaguire (6 Mar 2005)

That wasn't the substantive issue I raised in my post regarding the pay-for parking. I wasn't suggesting that the employer had to pay for their staff's parking costs. I was suggesting that it was a factor for many people in taking up employment because the newer shopping centres provide free parking. On that basis we assumed, along with most other interviewees, that parking would also be free here. Is that not a fair assumption? 

In the end, the employer hired a city centre hotel function room to train people for the best part of a week and most of the people ended up leaving after hearing about the parking. They could have saved themselves and potential employees a lot of expense and time by indicating the situation regarding parking earlier in the interview.

If they want to charge for parking, that's fine. I've no problem with that. I don't think the argument is about multi-storey versus surface-level car parks. But if you feel like it's a worthy point to debate, enjoy yourself


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## rainyday (6 Mar 2005)

> On that basis we assumed, along with most other interviewees, that parking would also be free here. Is that not a fair assumption?


Reality has shown that this wasn't a fair assumption. I do this it was fairly dumb of any employer not to clarify this point up front. But I also think there is a share of blame to be assigned to any employee who failed to clarify this point up front either.


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## gerry (6 Mar 2005)

*DTC*

I needed to buy a particular food product this evening and having tried Tesco in Dundrum Shopping Centre (none) and a couple of Centra and Spars in the area, reluctantly drove into Tesco in DSC. They didnt have want I wanted and I ended up paying €2 parking for the privilege.

Narks me that one has to spend €30 in Tesco to get 2 hours free parking. I also noticed that they have started to charge for parking in Dundrum Shopping Centre, also €2 per hour and free if you spend €30 in Tesco too.

Car parks in Ireland are a rip off in that they charge a rate per hour or PART OF instead of per minute. It is a pity Tesco will only refund if €30 spent although parking is free after 11pm, why not 10pm, as the cinemas would generally have started (for when they are open).

No doubt I will be impressed by the stores when I eventually make it in there but I think I will shop in Superquinn instead.

Anyone else have views of car parking ?

PS - the spaces are very narrow.


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## ClubMan (6 Mar 2005)

*Re: DTC*

On a slightly tangential topic ... anybody else read/hear about the prayers that were said at the ecumenical service held to bless the shopping centre last week? There was a bit in yesterday's _Irish Times_ and I personally found the whole idea a bit odd.


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## TarfHead (7 Mar 2005)

*Re: DTC*



> anybody else read/hear about the prayers that were said at the ecumenical service held to bless the shopping centre last week? There was a bit in yesterday's Irish Times and I personally found the whole idea a bit odd.





> I also found ironic the representatives from various faiths conducting a blessing at the opening. The passing of torch from the old religion to the new. The DTC is a cathedral to the dominant faith in this country - conspicuous consumption.


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## mollser (7 Mar 2005)

*free parking*

in fairness, not many people in Dundrum have EVER had free parking - why don't you head on into AIB, BOI, Peter Marks or any of the other existing businesses there and see how many of the staff had parking entitlements. Only the senior staff you may find

I don't see why the charges apply after 9pm etc - it is going to be a huge disincentive to use the cinema there when its open if you're nipped for another €5 for the car park. Fingers x'd they put in some arrangement....

Unbelieveably, traffic was lighter than ever in Dundrum all this weekend. I'm not sure how they're getting away with this, I presume most people are parking in Sandyford and luasing etc??


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## rainyday (8 Mar 2005)

*Re: free parking*



> I don't see why the charges apply after 9pm etc


I did see a note offering free parking between 11 pm & 7 am.


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## biggerry (8 Mar 2005)

*Free parking*

Gerry, I wasn't aware that if you spent more than €30 in Tesco that you got 2 free hours parking.  How does this work?


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## Biggles (9 Mar 2005)

> We can't keep assuming that we can always have our single-occupancy tin-box to bring us to/from work each day.



No, but if you seriously think that 4,000 people are all going to change the habits of a lifetime because the centre's management think they should, then you're being somewhat unrealistic. 

And as for doing the school run on public transport, can I ask if you've ever given it a go?  For any prolonged period?


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## rainyday (10 Mar 2005)

> No, but if you seriously think that 4,000 people are all going to change the habits of a lifetime because the centre's management think they should, then you're being somewhat unrealistic.


You have to see the big picture, Biggles - It's not a question of changing because of some whim of the centre's management. It's a question of changing because of the ever increasing environmental cost of car usage, because of the ever increase cost of providing parking facilities, because of the growing levels of obesity amongst our adult & child population. There are a whole raft of reasons, and I'd bet a fiver that they could find 4,000 people on public transport routes to Dundrum looking for jobs in the shiny new mall if they looked hard enough.

Nope - I've never done the school run on public transport myself, though as stated above, I know one lady who does this regularly. I have brought my little girl on the LUAS in her buggy, but that was during off-peak hours.


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## havana (10 Mar 2005)

*parking?*

Why would anyone assume they would get free parking at work? I work in town and would never have even considered that free parking would come with the position. In this day and age, why would any other part of the city be any different. 

Plus public transport to Dundrum is very good. 12 mins from the city centre at any time of the day? Couldn't happen in a car.


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## ClubMan (11 Mar 2005)

*Re: parking?*

* Why would anyone assume they would get free parking at work? *

Free parking at work should be treated as a benefit in kind in my opinion.


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## Janet (11 Mar 2005)

*Re: parking?*



> Free parking at work should be treated as a benefit in kind in my opinion.



...provided that there are decent public transport options avaialable imho. 

And Dundrum would count as one of those places which is pretty accessible.


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## rainyday (11 Mar 2005)

*Re: parking?*



> provided that there are decent public transport options avaialable imho.


What's the betting that most people would judge that their own work location falls just under the threshold of 'decent public transport'?


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## Janet (11 Mar 2005)

*Re: parking?*

I know, I know, it's a contentious issue - but something that, if there was really a will, could probably be quantified in a reasonable way.  How about destination accessible in less than 1.5 x time it would take in a car with moderate traffic as a starting point?  Of course then you'd have people with disabilities who'd need exemptions and it'd all get very contentioius in the end so we'll all just keep on clogging up the roads in the meantime.  Anyway, think we're moving into a whole different area now, back to Dundrum Town Centre - I'm considering writing to Tesco to ask why they insist on a 30 euro spend before paying for parking.  I understand the need to try and prevent the carparks being used by Luas commuters for free all day - but something like the way they operate in Tesco Rathmines might have been more suitable - you pay for parking but then hand the ticket stub to the cashier and that amount is taken off the total of your bill.


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## daltonr (18 Mar 2005)

*Free Parking*



> Have you ever come across any shopping centre where the majority of the parking was multi-story from the time the centre opened where the multi-story parking was free?



Well since you opened up the discussion to anywhere in the world, Yes, I have been in a number of multi-storey car parks that were free.  In the US, specifically one in Orlando, and one in Tampa.   The vast majority of parking is outdoors, but in these two cases they were multi-storey car parks.

Incidently the spaces were about 50% wider so you could comfortably get in and out.  Parking in Ireland is getting more and more difficult as they try to cram cars into every available square inch, and as people opt for bigger and bigger vehicles.

I was recently considering a Public transport trip to Dundrum, kill two birds with one stone and have my first Luas journey and my first trip to the new shopping center.

When I realised that the Luas nearest my house doesn't go anywhere near the Luas for Dundrum, I thought "why bother", and I hopped in my car and had a very enjoyable day (I didn't go to Dundrum as it happens).    
Had the lines intersected like in every other major city in the world I would had used the Luas.

Keep talking about your multi-hop public transport routes, and your sacrafices to avoid single occupancy car trips.  Your sacrafice just makes my car journey that little bit quicker.   And even when I'm stuck in traffic, I have the satisfaction of knowing I'm warm and dry and I've got the Radio to keep me company.

Thank you.

-Rd


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## Gabriel (19 Mar 2005)

*Re: Free Parking*

Lol...well done to daltonr for hitting the nail on the head regarding people's views on using their car.


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## rainyday (19 Mar 2005)

*Re: Free Parking*



> Yes, I have been in a number of multi-storey car parks that were free. In the US, specifically one in Orlando, and one in Tampa.


OK, so if you really want to play the 'What did the Romans ever do for us' game, I'll join in & clarify my question again to read;

Have you ever come across any shopping centre *in Ireland* where the majority of the parking was multi-story from the time the centre opened where the multi-story parking was free?



> And even when I'm stuck in traffic, I have the satisfaction of knowing I'm warm and dry and I've got the Radio to keep me company.


You don't know what you're missing. I have my radio courtesy of my Nokia mobile phone, and I was so warm on my walk into work this morning that I left my jacket in the office and walked home in the beautiful sun wearing just a sweatshirt. [Given the amount of petty nitpicking on this thread, I'll clarify that I wasn't wearing just a sweatshirt, but I think you know what I mean]. My only complaint today was that I didn't have my sunglasses with me to keep the glare down, but that is easily rectified. If the unintended side effect speeds up your journey, that that's just fine & dandy. But the real purposes  are to get me into work quicker than the car journey, to keep my weight down by fitting exercise into my daily activity (and not require late evening or early morning trips to the gym).


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## Biggles (20 Mar 2005)

*Re: Free Parking*



> and walked home in the beautiful sun wearing just a sweatshirt



Rainyday

You weren't arrested for indecency?


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## ClubMan (20 Mar 2005)

*Re: Free Parking*

Did you not read the disclaimer?



> [Given the amount of petty nitpicking on this thread, I'll clarify that I wasn't wearing just a sweatshirt, but I think you know what I mean].


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## Biggles (21 Mar 2005)

*Re: Free Parking*

This is the letting off steam section.  I didn't think it necessarily had to make sense.


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## ClubMan (21 Mar 2005)

*Re: Free Parking*

That sort of carry on should be reserved for _The Craic_!


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## Biggles (21 Mar 2005)

*Re: Free Parking*

God forbid I should choose to be flippant in the wrong arena. I'll contain myself in future.


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## daltonr (22 Mar 2005)

*Re: Free Parking*



> I was so warm on my walk into work this morning that I left my jacket in the office and walked home in the beautiful sun wearing just a sweatshirt.



Well done Rainday you use the one sunny day of the year to encapsulate your typical commute to work.   If a financial institution was so selective in describing it's products you'd be on them like a ton of bricks.

Incidently when I mentioned Orlando and Tampa I was simply answering the question that you posted....



> Have you ever seen any multi-story car-park *anywhere in the world* that was free of charge?



For the sake of comparison with Dublin Let me describe very 
a Saturday in a country where annual road tax is $40.   

Left Hotel at 8.30 drove about 25 miles to the first shop I needed to visit, was there at 9.00 parked outside the door (free) 
Spent about an hour chatting to the guy in the shop, got in the car drove on to a huge shopping Mall parked (free) with no difficulty in finding parking,  
Spend a couple of hours there, drove on to another shop about 20 miles away made it in about 25 mins.  
Parked outside the door (free) spent about 30 mins chatting to the very friendly staff, went to another mall, parked (free) with no trouble finding space.  
Had Dinner (very nice and very cheap).
Drove on to another shop, parked (free) outside the door.

You get the picture.

In total I visted 3 shopping Malls, and about 4 or 5 individual stores.  At no time did I pay for parking.  At no time did I get stuck in traffic.   

They can provide that kind of road network and parking facilities charging $40 road tax per year, with low tax on fuel and $400 VRT.

A Crysler Crossfire costs about EUR65,000 in Ireland (As far as I know),  you would be on the road in the states in the Same car for less than EUR18000

They also have a strange idea over there that the speed limit should have some relevance to the road.

In residential areas you have a 25mph limit, which people seem to obey.  There were roadworks on some of the Freeway's etc, but they didn't slap on a ridiculous 37mph limit as we did in Naas.  They simply double the penalty if you speed while work is being carried out.

By and large the speed limits seemed to be reasonably well observed, with those speeding standing out rather than being the norm.

Of course the difference is that most cities in the States were Planned and didn't evolve from medieval towns and villages with narrow streets etc.

But on the outskirts of Dublin there are cities that were basically built.  Firhouse was essentially built in the last 10 years.  And yet it's notoriously bad for traffic.  The M50  was built in the last 20 years, Tallaght was built, the vast housing sprawl at Lucan was buillt.   There doesn't appear to be any thought for design.   We just accept that cities in Ireland can't be controlled or designed,  even though the evidence from around the world is to the contrary.

Dublin's public transport, traffic congestion and bland housing sprawl are just the outword symptoms of the cancer of corruption that built Dublin.

-Rd


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## rainyday (23 Mar 2005)

*Re: Free Parking*

So the obvious question is - why are you still here?


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## daltonr (23 Mar 2005)

*Re: Free Parking*



> So the obvious question is - why are you still here?



Because as you well know you can't up and emigrate overnight.  But I'm working on it.  I'll be there for another couple of weeks from Saturday.

Don't worry, it may take a while but I'll get there, and when I do you're welcome to visit my EUR150,000 house and lounge in my Swimming Pool.  I'll even pick you up at the airport in my EUR18,000 Ford Mustang.  I won't even ask you to chip in 
towards the EUR30 *per year* road tax.

Oh! and don't forget those sunglasses you mentioned.

-Rd


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## househunter1 (23 Mar 2005)

*re*

Hi Rd
Some points for you to consider
You're not comparing like with like there, regarding time to get around etc, the way Dublin has devloped so fast in recent years has to be taken into consideration also you won't get around say LA, San Fran, NY, Chicago as fast as that either.
Do you think you'll have as good a quality of life alone in your mansion with the mustang. I would bet not, which is why I choose to live here after spending many years in the US. There is an emptyness to life in suburban USA, that will eat at your soul after a while. Of course you've got vibrant interesting places there also, but you'll have traffic also.
I'm not saying life is perfect here, far from it, but on the whole, you can do alot worse.

Oh and don't forget you could be paying $600 / month on property taxes and other local costs associated with that house. As for health insurance; that'll be another $500 / month please. Granted you get a better service, but you'll be paying for it. Starting to sound less appealing......is damn well is!


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## daltonr (23 Mar 2005)

*Re: re*



> You're not comparing like with like there



Yes I am,  I'm considering two places where I could live.



> the way Dublin has devloped so fast in recent years has to be taken into consideration



Why should that be taken into account?   Dublin is what it is, and other cities are what they are.  Why should I put up with This post will be deleted if not edited to remove bad language in Dublin and excuse it?  If other cities can grow logically in a well planned way, the bye bye Dublin.



> also you won't get around say LA, San Fran, NY, Chicago as fast as that either.



I'm not talking about any of those cities, but since you mention it I have gotten around NYC a lot more easily than Dublin.  In fact if I lived in NYC I wouldn't even own a car.



> Do you think you'll have as good a quality of life alone in your mansion with the mustang.



1. Who said anything about being alone?
2. Yes the quality of live that I've experieced is significantly
    better that the quality of live in Ireland,  Dublin in 
    particular.



> There is an emptyness to life in suburban USA, that will eat at your soul after a while.



I find my time and my life far more full in the US.  The emtiness of Ireland is what has worn me down.  



> Of course you've got vibrant interesting places there also, but you'll have traffic also.



Yes, I've spent time in Parts of the States that I didn't like, I certainly wouldn't like to Live too far North, and from what I gather LA can be hell,  I haven't visited.  But I'm happy with the part of America I've been visiting over the past couple of months.



> I'm not saying life is perfect here, far from it, but on the whole, you can do alot worse.



Of course you can do worse if you really look, but the point here is that I've found somewhere significantly better.  (In My Opinion).



> Oh and don't forget you could be paying $600 / month on property taxes and other local costs associated with that house.



And No State Income Tax, only Federal Tax which is significantly less than income tax here.   And with Ireland moving towars more and more regressive indirect taxes that $600 per month starts to look like a good deal.  At least they damn well deliver the services you're paying for.  Unlike here.

Bottom line is value for money for me.    Take the quality of life and the cost of living and compare them.  Ireland comes off very very poorly.



> As for health insurance; that'll be another $500 / month please. Granted you get a better service,



Trust me on this.  When weighing up the pros and cons of Ireland, The Health System should not be put in the Pro column.  



> but you'll be paying for it. Starting to sound less appealing......is damn well is!



No it's not sounding less appealing.  I am certainly not saying the American way of running a country is perfect.   
But When you put aside all the theoretical nonsence about administrations and democracy, and taxation/welfare policies etc, etc, etc.  And just look at life as a citizen, I don't think we get value for our Tax spend in Ireland.

Maybe education, healthcare etc will cost more in the States,  but at least I'll have the cash in my pocket to pay for it.

Maybe I'm to my horror becomming a Republican (in the US sense of the word) but having lived in a country that takes our money in taxes and doesn't provide the services in return, I'm a little more open to the idea of letting people keep their money and fend for themselves.

Anyway who knows how it will all pan out.  It's a complicated matter, lives are tricky things to uproot even when you want to.  I don't know if the States will happen.  I am 100% determined to leave Ireland for somewhere as soon as possible.

When I get there I'll let you know how it works out.
-Rd


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## casiopea (23 Mar 2005)

*living abroad*

quote: I don't think we get value for our Tax spend in Ireland.

I have to agree with daltonr.  I too have the same problems with Dublin/Ireland.  I live in switzerland which is notoriously expensive however I feel I really get value for my taxes paid.  The train and public transport system (no need for car), education (even as a foreigner I attend school here at night heavily subsidized by the government), and renting/buying property, facilities for people with babies or the handicap are excellent.  Health insurance is expensive here but it works and therefore Im happy to pay it and I pay 18% tax.  

Ive never had that feeling in ireland. 

As an Irish person, when I was living in ireland and I heard people go on like myself and daltonr my attitude was "well why dont you just pack your bags and go", similiar to rainydays response above...but now I think that was/is our mistake as irish people accepting that  that was all we were getting for our taxes.

Anyway, have a safe move daltonr,  and yes...LA is terrible.

Cas.


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## daltonr (23 Mar 2005)

*Re: living abroad*

I've hear good things about Switzerland and also Sweden,  never had the pleasure of visiting.

On the issue of lack of value for money.   Even if a Party like Fianna Fail or Labour or Fine Gael now offered to improve services in return for a Tax increase, I wouldn't believe them.   

I'd assume (probably correctly) that we'd get the higher taxes but the services wouldn't follow, because that has been the track record.

Sometimes past performance is a guide to future performance.

-Rd


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## rainyday (24 Mar 2005)

*Re: Free Parking*



> Don't worry, it may take a while but I'll get there, and when I do you're welcome to visit my EUR150,000 house and lounge in my Swimming Pool. I'll even pick you up at the airport in my EUR18,000 Ford Mustang. I won't even ask you to chip in
> towards the EUR30 per year road tax.


I guess we just have different priorities. When I think of quality of life issues, none of them have EUR symbols in front of them. I'd worry more about living in a country where this kind of thing happens on a worryingly regular basis than whether my house has a pool or not.

Hope you find happiness over there....


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## ClubMan (24 Mar 2005)

*Re: Free Parking*

*As an Irish person, when I was living in ireland and I heard people go on like myself and daltonr my attitude was "well why dont you just pack your bags and go", similiar to rainydays response above...but now I think that was/is our mistake as irish people accepting that that was all we were getting for our taxes.*

Who says that those of us who don't moan but stay here don't do our bit in an attempt to change things?


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## casiopea (24 Mar 2005)

*what is your bit?*



> Who says that those of us who don't moan but stay here don't do our bit in an attempt to change things?



I didnt say that people were moaning or not moaning and not doing anything about it.  My statement was an observation and critism of my behaviour when I was living in Ireland.

This statement from Rainyday:



> So the obvious question is - why are you still here?



Made me smile, as that is exactly what I would have said when I was living in Ireland and I heard people moan about Irish weather, Irish taxes, Irish traffic and say the quality of life was so much better in X.  For my part though I didnt do anything proactive in changing this, and for the record I dont think many do, the main reasons for this were a lack of knowledge as oppose to laziness.


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## daltonr (24 Mar 2005)

*Good Old Ireland*



> I guess we just have different priorities. When I think of quality of life issues, none of them have EUR symbols in front of them.



Money isn't my priority, however if I can buy a much nicer house in a much nicer area, with much better local services and ameneties for less than half the price of the houses I'm looking at in Ireland then I'm well on the way to a better quality of life.  That's just common sense.

[/quote]I'd worry more about living in a country where this kind of thing happens on a worryingly regular basis than whether my house has a pool or not.[/quote]

It doesn't happen on a worringly regular basis.  America is a big place.  These kinds of things happen in Europe too.  

If you want to make a direct comparison between Ireland and the States then you need to ask what's the crime like in the Very specific part of America that I want to live in.  A shooting on Colorado or Minesota has no more impact on people living in say Florida, than a School Massacre in Scotland has on people in Dublin.

Yes gun crime is a HUGE problem in the states, but it's been shown that it's predominantly gun owners and their families that are affected.  I know lots and lots of People in America, maybe 50 to 100 people,  I know nobody, not even one that has ever been directly affected by Gun Crime.

Far more important that the sensational Headline catching news stories is the everyday experience of people.  Let's look at life in good old Ireland....

I bought a car in Ireland 4 years ago, it was keyed on the first weekend I had it, it has been keyed again since then.   
I've had the window of my car broken twice outside the house in two different areas of Dublin (not bad areas).   I've had a leather jacket stolen from my car while I was changing a tyre.  
I know personally of two cases of people being very seriously assaulted on the streets of Dublin (Not Late at Night), one got a broken nose, the other got hit on the back of the head with a Baseball Bat at 6pm while walk along minding his own business.  
Neither of these people went looking for or expected to be attacked.
I myself was approached in the Point Depot by 3 guys who took a shine to my watch.  Fortunately I got to keep my watch thanks to the intervention of a couple of friends of mine, had they not been there I might have fended off one of the scumbags, but not 3.

So let's not get all misty eyed about how great Ireland is and how crime ridden the US is.  I would not dare to buy a nice car e.g. a Mustang In Ireland because it would be stolen or keyed or both within Days.  
On the one or two occasions a month when I find myself in Dublin city center late at night, I can't wait to get out of it.  I'm nervous walking from Marlboro St Car Park to O'Connell St.

I feel much much safer in the US.

Trust me, my priorities are not Financial.  Even if it was more expensive to live there I'd still go.

I suppose the question I have for you Rainyday is if Ireland is so great, why are you anxious to remove the Party that has been in Government for 16 of the last 18 years.   If Fianna Fail are doing so well, why risk putting another party into Power? Labour MIGHT only wreck the great Quality of Life you seem to enjoy so much?   Why not stick with something that's working so well?  Fianna Fail might not be perfect, but they've built a country that you seem to Love.  That's a pretty good reason to vote for them.

-Rd


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## soc (24 Mar 2005)

*Re: Good Ol' Ireland*



> I'd worry more about living in a country where this kind of thing happens on a worryingly regular basis



You should start worrying now following the shooting of a truck driver yesterday.  The Indo (24/03/2004) reports:



> A spokesman for Devlin Transport said yesterday: "...Apparently this sort of thing has happened before..." A senior Garda source said:..."There has been a serious increase in vehicles being targeted on the M50 in recent weeks. Rocks and other debris have been thrown from the bridge at Tallaght and have struck cars and caused damage."



Now if Ireland is turning into a mini America, with lunatics running around shooting things and pelting rocks at people - the chances of being killed here is far greater than in the US, considering how small the population of Ireland is to over there.  Daltonr, you better add one more item to your list of disadvantages in living in this damned country.

-soc


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## daltonr (24 Mar 2005)

*Re: Free Parking*

We've gone a little off topic here (Remember Dundrum Shopping Centre).  But I suppose it's all linked.



> There has been a serious increase in vehicles being targeted on the M50 in recent weeks. Rocks and other debris have been thrown from the bridge at Tallaght and have struck cars and caused damage.



I saw a BBC (I think) documentary a few years ago about kids dropping concrete blocks from bridges over motorways in the UK.  Do you have any idea how much damage a concrete block travelling at 70mph does when it hits your head?

Ever since that documentary I look at all bridges to see if there are kids on them as I approach.



> you better add one more item to your list of disadvantages in living in this damned country.



That side of the list is full I'm afraid.  I'm on the look out for some reasons to stay if anyone has any.

-Rd


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## stobear (24 Mar 2005)

*Re: Free Parking*

Not too many of [broken link removed] hanging around the M50


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## ClubMan (24 Mar 2005)

*Re: Free Parking*

No - I think you should go.


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## househunter1 (24 Mar 2005)

*Re: Free Parking*

Hi rd
Why not think about Oz, its got the things you're looking for (even cheaper) and the people are alot more copped on....


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## Gabriel (24 Mar 2005)

*Re: Free Parking*

*>I'm on the look out for some reasons to stay if anyone has any.*

Family. Friends. The Guinness.

The women.....okay...maybe not


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## casiopea (24 Mar 2005)

*reasons for staying/going back*

Seriously if you were to put a list together what would it be?
Though that said the list should not contain family or friends as those are a personal thing, ie if you were to try to convinence an american or italian that ireland has a great quality of life your family and friends wouldnt count!

For me Id say

- Dublin aside, the country is not overpopulated and there really is some lovely countryside
- the sea
- the weather, while not loved by sun worshippers, is marvellous for gardeners and is relatively moderate.
- the irish wit, humour


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## casiopea (24 Mar 2005)

*oh I forgot one....*

....the drundrum town centre....  :rollin 

(do I get points for bringing it back to topic)


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## daltonr (24 Mar 2005)

*Re: Free Parking*

Oz was considered.  I may be visiting this year and who knows.  If I like it... anything could happen.
Even it is were cheaper finances aren't the only consideration.

The East Coast of the States has the advantage that I can get back here (I still have family) within a long weekend if necessary.  Or they can get out to me.

Canada is another country that really interests me.

-Rd


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## rainyday (25 Mar 2005)

*Re: Good Old Ireland*



> Money isn't my priority, however if I can buy a much nicer house in a much nicer area, with much better local services and ameneties for less than half the price of the houses I'm looking at in Ireland then I'm well on the way to a better quality of life. That's just common sense.


It makes absolutely no sense, unless you look at the big picture. We all know the old saying about those people who know the price of everything and the value of nothing. At a minimum, you need to look the other side of the equation too - income/tax etc.



> I bought a car in Ireland 4 years ago, it was keyed on the first weekend I had it, it has been keyed again since then.
> I've had the window of my car broken twice outside the house in two different areas of Dublin (not bad areas). I've had a leather jacket stolen from my car while I was changing a tyre.
> I know personally of two cases of people being very seriously assaulted on the streets of Dublin (Not Late at Night), one got a broken nose, the other got hit on the back of the head with a Baseball Bat at 6pm while walk along minding his own business.
> Neither of these people went looking for or expected to be attacked.
> I myself was approached in the Point Depot by 3 guys who took a shine to my watch. Fortunately I got to keep my watch thanks to the intervention of a couple of friends of mine, had they not been there I might have fended off one of the scumbags, but not 3.


It does sound like we live in different cities. In my 40 years in Dublin, I've had one car break-in, and nothing else. Most of my family/friends have similar experiences.



> I suppose the question I have for you Rainyday is if Ireland is so great, why are you anxious to remove the Party that has been in Government for 16 of the last 18 years. If Fianna Fail are doing so well, why risk putting another party into Power? Labour MIGHT only wreck the great Quality of Life you seem to enjoy so much? Why not stick with something that's working so well? Fianna Fail might not be perfect, but they've built a country that you seem to Love. That's a pretty good reason to vote for them.


I'm not quite sure why you seem to want to bring the Labour issue into every topic we debate, but anyway - let's not give FF too much credit. FF haven't created my family, my friends, the foothills of Dublin where I cycle etc etc. We all know they have no core policies. They just jump into bed with whoever will get them in power and swing from left to right to left again perhaps.


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## daltonr (25 Mar 2005)

*Re: Good Old Ireland*



> It makes absolutely no sense, unless you look at the big picture. We all know the old saying about those people who know the price of everything and the value of nothing. At a minimum, you need to look the other side of the equation too - income/tax etc.



The big picture is what I'm talking about.   Life in general in Ireland is not as pleasant as Life in general in many of the countries I've been to.  

My only point about Money and tax is that we don't get value for money on our tax spend.  There are other countries where you pay significantly less tax and get significantly better services.  Or you pay less tax but can use what you keep to buy better services.



> It does sound like we live in different cities. In my 40 years in Dublin, I've had one car break-in, and nothing else. Most of my family/friends have similar experiences.



Lucky you.  I'm currently sitting in a room with one other person.  I've had two break-ins to my car, the other person had a car stolen (car-jacked).



> I'm not quite sure why you seem to want to bring the Labour issue into every topic we debate,



I just think your support of Labour makes a clear statement about what you believe, and often that differs from what you preach on AAM.  E.g in this case (Ireland is great,  kick out the government we seriously need to change Ireland).



> FF haven't created my family, my friends, the foothills of Dublin where I cycle etc etc.



Of course they have.  (Well maybe not the foothills), They've been almost constantly in power since the foundation of the state, they have shaped the Irish people (including you, your family and friends), their beliefs, prejudices, hopes etc.

Incidently the Dublin foothills aren't exactly spectacular.  You should get out more.  They're nice and all, but really,  not worth putting up with a sh1t country for.

Congrats on finding a quality of life you like and enjoy, that's all you can hope for.  I haven't in Ireland so I hope to leave.
But don't stay in Ireland if you hope you can change it into the kind of country you'd like.  That's what I'm not prepared to do, because the country I like is already out there.  And Ireland ain't going to improve in my lifetime,  It's going to get worse.

-Rd


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## rainyday (26 Mar 2005)

*Re: Good Old Ireland*



> kick out the government we seriously need to change Ireland


I've never equated the Govt with the country - two very different entities.


> Incidently the Dublin foothills aren't exactly spectacular. You should get out more. They're nice and all, but really, not worth putting up with a sh1t country for.


Who needs spectacular?


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## daltonr (26 Mar 2005)

*Re: Good Old Ireland*



> Who needs spectacular?



Clearly you don't judging from your comments on this thread.
If mediocre is ok for you then fine.  More power to you.

I don't like Ireland and I don't believe it'll get any better.  You're obviously happy.  Assuming I manage to leave we might both end up happy.  Isn't that all that really matters?

Incidently I visited Dundrum today.
I left after about 30 mins.   I'll go back when it's fully open but right now it's just massively over priced clothes shops.

I buy all my clothes in the States, so Dundrum hasn't much to offer right now.

€99.99 for a pair of Levi's 501's.   Gimme a break.

Seemed to be doing good business though.
I don't know.  Confuses the hell out of me.

-Rd


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## ClubMan (26 Mar 2005)

*Re: Good Old Ireland*

Well, when it comes down to this specific issue I think anybody in their right mind, and even those around here who are not, has to admit that the _USA_ does have more spectacular hills than _Ireland_. Not sure if they're necessarily greener though.


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## rainyday (26 Mar 2005)

*Re: Good Old Ireland*



> has to admit that the USA does have more spectacular hills than Ireland.


Agreed, though I'm not sure that quantity is all that relevant. You can only walk/climb/cycle one of them at a time, whether you are here or in the US.


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## daltonr (27 Mar 2005)

*More*

I think when he said More Spectacular, he didn't mean MORE in quantity (although that's obviously true) he meant MORE SPECTATULAR.  I might be wrong.

Not that's it's relevant, I wouldn't move somewhere for the scenery, it's just a nice bonus.  You mentioned it as one of the things you liked about Dublin.  Which is fair enough.  I lived in the Wiclow Mountains for two years and it was very very nice, but it didn't compensate for the rest of the stuff that I dislike.

-Rd


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## ClubMan (27 Mar 2005)

*Re: More*

*I think when he said More Spectacular, he didn't mean MORE in quantity (although that's obviously true) he meant MORE SPECTATULAR. I might be wrong.*

Spot on - that's what I meant.


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## Gordanus (31 Mar 2005)

*back to free parking*

(but not yet back to Dundrum 'town' centre.....)
Clubman, staff at St Vincents Elm Park Hospital and Beaumont have to pay for their parking, and there is nothing like enough of it.  Many staff are attached to community services and have to go to outlying facilities or home visits during their working hours, and may not have a spot on their return to the hospital.  Is this right?  Should parking be a benefit in kind for them?  Should it be a benefit in kind for those who spend their entire shift inside the hospital?  Given that shifts run from 7am untill 10pm when public transport is neither frequent nor the wait always in a secure or safe place.  Just looking for opinions here.


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## podgerodge (13 Apr 2005)

Monaco/Monte Carlo public car parks are all free for the first hour.  Thereafter you pay for the privilege.  This means you NEVER see double parking in Monaco cos it's as easy and as free to go into a carpark for a quick errand.  Here we employ clampers.  The same should apply to Dundrum etc - you should be able to drop in and buy the morning paper without it costing you four euro.


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## Janet (13 Apr 2005)

Was there for the first time on Sunday evening to go to Tesco (sometimes 24 hour shopping is handy) - I knew we'd be spending over 30 euro and wouldn't have to pay for parking.  Still looked at the prices and was even more dismayed to find that the longer you stay there, the more expensive it gets.  Perhaps I was reading it incorrectly but it looked like 1 hour is 2 euro, 2 hours 4 euro, 3 hours 6 euro, 4 hours 9 euro etc.  So for the first three hours it's 2 euro per hour and after that it goes up to 3 euro per hour!


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## Erith (15 Apr 2005)

Hi Danltonr, Where do you live? It sounds like you'd be safer with a condo in Mosul.


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