# Mortgage in arrears and negative equity, but 69 year old joint borrower



## sellornot (20 Mar 2017)

*Summary *

€250,000 Mortgage owed to bank including €83,000 Arrears

Value of the property €150,000 due to the fact of Pyrite so negative equity €100K

Mortgage in joint Names 39 years working and living in the property and 69 years retired has own apartment (no mortgage)

Disposable income 2,150.00 approx

 Current mortgage interest rate 4.490% (per annum)

Amount of each instalment should be €1,245.69

Paying €600.00 at the moment

68 missed payments

8 years left on the mortgage

*Possible solutions*

Give keys back to bank

Pay lump sum of 250K to bank (If we had the money)

Pay the arrears €83,000 (If we had the money)

Ask bank to stop adding interest (freeze the interest) for now

Extend the period of the mortgage 10/15 years

Pay the full instalments of €1,245.69 per month (nothing of the arrears)

Rent 2 rooms out @ €500.00 per month per room = €1,000.00

Agree to a voluntary sale provided bank agrees to write off the balance should the sale price does not reach what is owing

What’s the best solution or am I missing something?


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## sellornot (21 Mar 2017)

Give the keys back to the bank is looking like the best option


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## jdwex (21 Mar 2017)

Was the house not eligible for remediation of the pyrite issue?


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## XMarks (21 Mar 2017)

What are the circumstances of the 69 year old (I assume parent) who bought with you. Do they own the apartment they are in? Do they have any other assets? If you hand back the keys the banks will go after them.


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## Brendan Burgess (21 Mar 2017)

The lender would not have lent that amount to you on your own.

They lent it to two of you, so they have a legal and moral right to pursue the joint borrower.  And most lenders will do that. 

What discussions have you had with them? 

If you rent out two of the rooms, you can pay your mortgage in full and you should do that. Otherwise, your 69 year old friend will be on the hook for it. 

I note you are paying 4.49%. Which lender?  Most lenders have some option for reducing the rate by fixing or by switching to an LTV mortgage. 

But do not hand back the keys. That is just dumping the problem onto your 69 year old friend. It's also making the problem worse as the sales price will be a lot less than the value. 

Brendan


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## PGF2016 (21 Mar 2017)

sellornot said:


> Pay the full instalments of €1,245.69 per month (nothing of the arrears)


What's stopping you from paying the full amount?


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## Gordon Gekko (21 Mar 2017)

Why is the mortgage not being paid? There's plenty of disposable income and scope for "rent-a-room".


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## sellornot (21 Mar 2017)

]Was the house not eligible for remediation of the pyrite issue?[/QUOTE]
Yes the House is eligible for remediation, but it still very hard to get a loan on the property and to insure


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## Brendan Burgess (21 Mar 2017)

sellornot said:


> it still very hard to get a loan on the property



Pyrite or not, you would not get a loan because of your credit history. 

Brendan


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## sellornot (21 Mar 2017)

Thanks Brendan

What discussions have you had with them?
_Tried the insolvency route but was not accepted by a pip,  reason given 69 year old not insolvent_

I note you are paying 4.49%. Which lender?  Most lenders have some option for reducing the rate by fixing or by switching to an LTV mortgage.
Can I negotiate interest rates when I am in arrears? The lender is BOI


sorry but I don't really know how to use quotes have not used this site in years


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## sellornot (21 Mar 2017)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Pyrite or not, you would not get a loan because of your credit history.
> 
> Brendan



I mean if we or the bank tried to sell the house it would be hard to sell because of pyrite in the estate

I know my credit rating is finished because of this


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## Brendan Burgess (21 Mar 2017)

sellornot said:


> Can I negotiate interest rates when I am in arrears? The lender is BOI



Absolutely, you should fix for at least one year and reduce your interest rate significantly.

Do this today and start saving money.

Brendan


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## sellornot (21 Mar 2017)

The bank are looking for repossession of the property, court date next month
trying to get bank to meet and discuss the arrears with me. I am the 69 year old


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## PGF2016 (21 Mar 2017)

sellornot said:


> The bank are looking for repossession of the property, court date next month
> trying to get bank to meet and discuss the arrears with me. I am the 69 year old


It's hard to know what advice to give when there are so many unanswered questions. Is the disposable income mentioned in the original post relating to the 39 year old or the 69 year old? What is stopping the 39 year old from paying the mortgage?


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## Brendan Burgess (21 Mar 2017)

Hi sellornot

This is a very tough position to be in.  Is the primary borrower acting responsibly?  You are in effect the guarantor of his good behaviour. If he does not act properly, you will have to pay for it. 

The following is the likely scenario: 
Bank of Ireland will eventually get an order for possession of the property.
They will sell it, let's say for €150k. 
There will be a shortfall of €100k.
They will get a judgement against you for €100k
They will lodge that against your home. 

They could then seek a court order that your home be sold and their debt paid off. It's probably unlikely that they would try this. And I think it's unlikely that they would get it.

If they are in the court, then it's mainly because there has been little engagement with them. 

The best outcome for you is if the primary borrower engages and ups his repayments.  

That will make it very difficult, but not impossible, for BoI to get an order for possession. 

In my experience in the courts, Bank of Ireland rarely go to court, but when they do, they are serious about it. The other banks are only half-hearted and use legal teams which are pretty ineffectual.

Brendan


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## sellornot (21 Mar 2017)

[

Brendan[/QUOTE]


Brendan Burgess said:


> This is a very tough position to be in. Is the primary borrower acting responsibly? You are in effect the guarantor of his good behaviour. If he does not act properly, you will have to pay for it.



39 year old has not acted very responsible up to now but since bank has moved to take the house she is starting to act now


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## sellornot (21 Mar 2017)

PGF2016 said:


> It's hard to know what advice to give when there are so many unanswered questions. Is the disposable income mentioned in the original post relating to the 39 year old or the 69 year old? What is stopping the 39 year old from paying the mortgage?





sellornot said:


> Mortgage in joint Names 39 years working and living in the property and 69 years retired has own apartment (no mortgage)


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## Brendan Burgess (21 Mar 2017)

OK,

The good news is that it's never too late.  But it's getting very late. 

She needs to talk to the lender and try to do a deal. 

If they won't do a deal and insist on proceeding , she needs to up her payments. 

She absolutely must attend the court hearing and you should attend as well. Have you been notified of the hearing by the bank? 

I have written a Key Post here: 
*Advice for people facing court repossession proceedings*


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## sellornot (21 Mar 2017)

[


Brendan Burgess said:


> She needs to talk to the lender and try to do a deal.



Time is passing,we wasted a lot of time going to mabbs and a PIP, She has asked me to talk to the lender, problem bank is not engaging with me, I have phoned the bank a few times, and  today I emailed bank asking for a meeting. I think its time for an expert mortgage negotiator, I am not that good at talking in court but I know I have to as there is a lot depending on putting our point across.


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## Brendan Burgess (21 Mar 2017)

The two of you should formally request a meeting where both of you meet the lender. 

Do it in writing. 

If the bank doesn't agree, then the Court Registrar will not be happy. 

Do try to negotiate in person, but follow up everything in writing to show that you are engaging. 

You can tell them that you tried MABS and a PIP.  

However, MABS is very good.  Often when people are unhappy with them, it was because MABS did not wave a magic wand and make the bank accept a very low repayment.

Brendan


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## Jim Stafford (21 Mar 2017)

The 39 year old could have done  a PIA, but her PIA would have left you saddled with the residual debt.

Capitalising the arrears and paying €250,000 over 20 years at 4.49% would cost €1,580.27 per month. The bank may agree to an interest rate reduction if you properly engage with them.

Your difficulty is your current age: the bank will be very reluctant to keep the loan going until you are 89. They may insist on a formal charge on your existing apartment.

If the 39 year old rented out rooms she could probably afford the new payments. She should acknowledge herself that if the property is re-possessed it will be very difficult for her to get back on the property ladder again.

You should submit a written proposal to the bank's solicitors, and request a meeting with the bank. 

Jim Stafford


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## Gordon Gekko (21 Mar 2017)

If I was the 69 year old, I'd be looking to divest myself of my assets...


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## sellornot (21 Mar 2017)

Jim Stafford said:


> You should submit a written proposal to the bank's solicitors, and request a meeting with the bank.



What should the written proposal state, is it up to us to make a proposal or the bank to suggest something that they might agree to


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## sellornot (22 Mar 2017)

Is it possible that a bank would agree to let me a 69 year old buy myself out of the mortgage 
so that the 39 year old could apply to extend the mortgage, and possible also get a PIA
sellornot


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## Jim Stafford (22 Mar 2017)

sellornot said:


> Is it possible that a bank would agree to let me a 69 year old buy myself out of the mortgage
> so that the 39 year old could apply to extend the mortgage, and possible also get a PIA
> sellornot



Obviously, I believe any bank would allow you to buy yourself out of a mortgage. The real question is at what price!

Different banks have different strategies, and on a public forum such as this I am unable to comment on specific banks.

You should submit a realistic proposal to the bank's solicitors. (Normally the banks suggest a solution, but you appear to have gone beyond that point.)

Jim Stafford


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## sellornot (22 Mar 2017)

Thanks Jim


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## Brendan Burgess (22 Mar 2017)

sellornot said:


> Is it possible that a bank would agree to let me a 69 year old buy myself out of the mortgage
> so that the 39 year old could apply to extend the mortgage, and possible also get a PIA
> sellornot



Look at it from the lender's point of view. 

The gave a big loan to a borrower because there was a joint borrower as a guarantor 

The house is now in deep negative equity 

The mortgage is in deep arrears 

The borrower is acting so irresponsibly that the bank is forced to take legal action, which it only does as a last resort

The joint lender has assets which could be targeted. 

The joint lender is asking if the lender will facilitate a PIA!
I would imagine that Bank of Ireland might let you off the loan, if you cleared the negative equity i.e. paid €100k off the loan. 

Brendan


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## sellornot (22 Mar 2017)

Brendan Burgess said:


> would imagine that Bank of Ireland might let you off the loan, if you cleared the negative equity i.e. paid €100k off the loan.



when the house is remediated of the pyrite issue the negative equity might not be €100k


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## Brendan Burgess (22 Mar 2017)

As of now, it's €100k.  

And it will be difficult to sell.

As a lender, I would not let anyone off the hook. 

Brendan


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## sellornot (22 Mar 2017)

Jim Stafford said:


> You should submit a realistic proposal to the bank's solicitors. (Normally the banks suggest a solution, but you appear to have gone beyond that point.)



Solicitors for the bank says if you wish to discuss your situation or make any repayment proposal regarding your account, you should telephone the bank's contact centre. I have been calling the bank for the last 3 days but cannot get to talk to my case manager
sellornot


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## Andy836 (22 Mar 2017)

Make sure to tell all of this to the court.

Make sure to blame everything on the original borrower.

Question for others - if the bank gets a judgement against SellorNot what is the likelihood of another court enforcing it?


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## sellornot (23 Mar 2017)

Andy836 said:


> Make sure to tell all of this to the court.
> 
> Make sure to blame everything on the original borrower.
> 
> Question for others - if the bank gets a judgement against SellorNot what is the likelihood of another court enforcing it?



Not sure what you mean there Andy

sellornot


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## PGF2016 (23 Mar 2017)

Andy836 said:


> Make sure to tell all of this to the court.
> 
> Make sure to blame everything on the original borrower.
> 
> Question for others - if the bank gets a judgement against SellorNot what is the likelihood of another court enforcing it?



What do you mean original borrower? There were 2 borrowers and sellornot is one of them.


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## Brendan Burgess (23 Mar 2017)

I am not a lawyer, but I understand that the lender will have to go through the following steps 
1) Get an order for possession against sellornot and the other borrower. 
2) Sell the property 
3) Get a judgement against sellornot for the shortfall 
4)  Get a judgement mortgage against sellornot's own property. 

The first step will take about two years if the borrowers do nothing and the bank works very efficiently. 
The rest of the steps are fairly automatic after that. 

If sellornot wants to sell his apartment, the judgement mortgage will have to be paid first. 

It's unlikely that BoI would seek the sale of sellornot's home, but they could.

Brendan


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## sellornot (23 Mar 2017)

Brendan Burgess said:


> The first step will take about two years if the borrowers do nothing and the bank works very efficiently.



The Borrowers can do nothing if the bank (BOI) will not meet and discuss a solution



Brendan Burgess said:


> Sell the property



sellornot has no problem with the bank selling the property
sellornot has no problem paying the shortfall 
The other joint holder is living in the property and paying something and could pay more if the mortgage was restructured


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## sellornot (23 Mar 2017)

Look at my user name sell or not = sellornot


Brendan Burgess said:


> It's unlikely that BoI would seek the sale of sellornot's home, but they could.


sellornot is willing to sell his home to sort this out ounce and for all


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## Brendan Burgess (23 Mar 2017)

sellornot said:


> The other joint holder is living in the property and paying something and could pay more if the mortgage was restructured



The other person could pay more full stop.  Whether it is restructured or not, they can pay more and should do so. 

Otherwise, the bank will come after you - but you seem to be ok with this. 

Brendan


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## sellornot (23 Mar 2017)

Brendan Burgess said:


> but you seem to be ok with this.


no I am not ok with this,  It is I who got her to this point, paying anything and its my intention to
get her to pay more and eventually pay the full repayments, there is also the question of the arrears
I am willing to pay a lump sum off the mortgage but I want my name removed from the account.
That's why I would like to sit down with the bank preferable before the court date and work this out,
in the mean time repossession is a possibility. so is there any point in her paying more. 
By the way I should say Mabs are helping with this too

sellornot


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## Andy836 (23 Mar 2017)

PGF2016 said:


> What do you mean original borrower? There were 2 borrowers and sellornot is one of them.


I thought sell or not was just a guarantor?

Rereading I see my error. Jt borrowers.


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## sellornot (23 Mar 2017)

Andy836 said:


> I thought sell or not was just a guarantor?



It makes no difference Joint borrower or guarantor 



Andy836 said:


> Question for others - if the bank gets a judgement against SellorNot what is the likelihood of another court enforcing it?



I am not sure what you mean by that remark Andy

sellornot


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## Bronte (24 Mar 2017)

sellornot said:


> [
> 
> Brendan




39 year old has not acted very responsible up to now but since bank has moved to take the house she is starting to act now[/QUOTE]

Is this your daughter?

Is your name on the title to the Pyrite house?

Who is living in the Pyrite house?


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## sellornot (24 Mar 2017)

The 39 year old is not my daughter
Yes my name is on the title deeds to the pyrite house, as is the 39 year old
The 39 year old is living the house

sellornot


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## Bronte (24 Mar 2017)

Is the person somehow related to you? Are there children in the house.

You are co-owner.  You can move in there.  I don't want you to start a war, but with you looking like going homeless and a person who created this mess not being very helpful I'd be looking at all options.  It seems you are the one worrying and left in a mess at your age, that's not nice, and that's putting it mildly.

What is your ideal solution? Be realistic.  I'd also like to see the figures on the 39 year old's income and expenditure.


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## sellornot (24 Mar 2017)

Bronte said:


> Is the person somehow related to you? Are there children in the house.


not related to me  no children involved 



Bronte said:


> What is your ideal solution?



Best solution that the 39 year old would transfer her share of the property to me and I would pay off the mortgage and sell the property when the pyrite is repaired.

sellornot


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## Bronte (24 Mar 2017)

It's like dragging teeth here SorN.

What is preventing her transferring it to you?  There is something you're not telling us. How did you get into this?  I presume that is at play here.

No children is good.  So it can be clean.

You have money.  You have a property. You are joint owners with her on a separate property.  She's paid the mortgage, in some way.  But that's really irrelevant because of the NE.

What cost to make her go away, is that another way of looking at this?


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## sellornot (24 Mar 2017)

It's a long story and I don't really want to get into the personal stuff, the bottom line is I think we are getting close to a deal
If you read the post from the start you should get a good picture of most of the details
I have got a lot of good advice on this forum, some hard hitting but it made me tease out the problems I am facing
Its going to cost me my pension pot, but at the end of the day I will be free, from my ex and the bank
To all those who think of not paying their mortgage don't do it, get in touch with your bank first sign of problems ( Bank has contacted me, No deal pay up look happy)
Thank you all for your input it's not over just yet but hopefully soon.

sellornot


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## XMarks (24 Mar 2017)

Best of luck sellornot.


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## Bronte (25 Mar 2017)

What deal do you think you are nearly at?

The best solution would be for her to move out and get on with her life and leave you to sort it out.  She has an income of 2k a month. 

You could pay of the arrears. Sort out the pyrite and sell. Meanwhile you could move in and rent the two rooms for 1k tax free to help with the mortgage.

How much would the repayments be if you paid off the arrears.

As an aside, it's very odd the bank gave a mortgage to you in the first place if the end date is when you are 80. That's the worst I've heard.


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## Brendan Burgess (25 Mar 2017)

Bronte said:


> it's very odd the bank gave a mortgage to you in the first place if the end date is when you are 80.



Do they not go by the age of the younger of the two joint borrowers?  Maybe not.


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## Monbretia (25 Mar 2017)

Yes Brendan, banks used to go with the age of the younger if needs be, back in the good old days anyway!


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## sellornot (26 Mar 2017)

All will be reveled  when/If the deal is done



Bronte said:


> it's very odd the bank gave a mortgage to you in the first place if the end date is when you are 80.



actually I will be 77 years of age in 8 years time when the mortgage should be fully paid.
Have I got a leg to stand on? or should I complain? should I look for compensation? would I get it?

I can see the headlines

*Bank of Ireland Gave a mortgage which will finish when the man is 77 years old *

Surly BOI would not make a mistake like that

sellornot


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## sellornot (26 Mar 2017)

Monbretia said:


> Yes Brendan, banks used to go with the age of the younger if needs be, back in the good old days anyway!



It looks like that, maybe that's why the statements and certificate of interest are issued in the younger mortgage account holders name only .


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## Monbretia (26 Mar 2017)

Well it depends how you look at it.  When I was working in banking there was a court case taken by a customer who claimed age discrimination because she was refused a loan 'at her age'.   She had an income sufficient (from pension) that would have meant approval for a person of a younger age.   She won.  When is it discrimination and when not?  

I know in our branch we gave an 81 yr old a mortgage, loads of income and more than sufficient life cover assigned to bank to cover the loan when he died, I think it was just a 10 yr mortgage and actually I don't think he did die before the end of term either.

If there is going to be sufficient pension income to pay the mortgage and life cover in place then I don't the problem.


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## Gordon Gekko (26 Mar 2017)

When I moved, the bank assessed my pension provision and allowed the mortgage to run to 70, notwithstanding the fact that I've a mandatory retirement age of 65.


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## Bronte (26 Mar 2017)

sellornot said:


> It looks like that, maybe that's why the statements and certificate of interest are issued in the younger mortgage account holders name only .


This doesn't make sense to me.  Does this mean you don't even know what is or isn't being paid?  The banks wants you to pay but you're out of the loop of correspondence on the mortgage.


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## sellornot (26 Mar 2017)

I left the house and the relationship 10 years ago


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