# Anyone else get a letter



## Frank

Got a letter in the post today for a rented house.

I assume the details came from either the PRTB or the NPPR crowd.

I reckon it was a mistake to sign up for that too.

Nothing for my own place.

Anyone else get any letters.

The carrot is pay 114 now or price will rise month on month.

I have made own mind on not paying out of principal. So I am not looking for opinions on the right or wrong of my position.

I am curious to what people reckon will happen next?


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## dewdrop

We have to pay our taxes.  Otherwise  the country will slowly come to a halt.


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## Frank

If I thought the gov wouldn't waste the money and that it would make a difference I would happily pay.

A TD owes how much in VAT tackle him first.

Voting machines are being scrapped after very generous storage contracts.

Previous leaders of the country cheated us no one pays back a penny or looses their pensions.

Bankers Bankers Bankers been said to death.

1 Councillor convicted of taking back handers. 
Only 1 

I said I had made my mind up.
This is not a tax this is a household charge.
The gov should not have given us the choice to pay.

Just continue to pillage our pay.
PAYE 
PRSI 
Social charge

Give me a break.


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## twofor1

Frank said:


> I am curious to what people reckon will happen next?


 
You will probably just get a similar reminder every year nothing more, but at some stage admittedly maybe many years’ time your house will be sold or ownership transferred, the government will not only then get payment but they will also get Late Payment Fees and Late Payment Interest which at that stage will be substantial.
 
I have paid mine, I didn’t like paying it, but I reckon those that don’t pay will pay a lot more than me in the long run. 
 



What happens if I don't pay or don’t pay on time? 
An owner of a residential property who does not pay a Household Charge or an instalment thereof by the due date will be subject to (1) LATE PAYMENT FEES and (2) LATE PAYMENT INTEREST
*(1) LATE PAYMENT FEES*



The late payment fee to apply in the case of a Household Charge paid:

not later than 6 months after the due date, is 10% of the amount outstanding;
later than 6 months and not later than 12 months after the due date, is 20 % of the amount outstanding; or 
later than 12 months after the due date, is 30 % of the amount outstanding.
*(2) LATE PAYMENT INTEREST*
Late payment interest of 1% per month or part thereof will apply to unpaid amounts.
Furthermore, both the €100 charge and any accumulated late payment fee will be a charge against the property concerned and will continue to be such for twelve years after the charge or late payment penalties concerned became due. Any Household Charges or late payment penalties due on a residential property will have to be discharged, in full, before a transfer or sale of the property can be completed. 

https://www.householdcharge.ie/Faq.aspx#fk15


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## Greta

I have got the same letter by the looks of it, also mentioning 114 euro to pay now. I actually started a thread about it yesterday, if you took the time to have a look, my thread is just below this thread 

The difference in my case is that I have already PAID this charge, but they sent me a letter anyway! Or more exactly, I chose the option to pay by direct debit, have paid half of the instalments on time by the time they sent me the letter! Today the 3rd instalment for 25 euro was debited, as scheduled.

The crappy incompetents must have got my details from NPPR database, as I have been paying NPPR charge since it was introduced, not from PRTB, as PRTB registration is in my husband's name, and this letter is addressed to me, not my husband.

I think it was not a mistake to register and pay NPPR charges, as the penalties are too steep for non payment, I believe a lot of people are going to be totally ruined financially over the years for non payment of NPPR charge, a small charge of 200 euro per year can quickly run into tens of thousands and counting after several years of non payment. I saw on another thread here, that it's impossible to part pay NPPR charge, if you didn't pay, you have to come up with the whole amount, to stop insane penalties clocking up.

I think the penalties for non payment of Household charge are a bit less steep, but even still, I am not sure it's worth not paying.


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## Greta

_You will probably just get a similar reminder every year nothing more, but at some stage admittedly maybe many years’ time your house will be sold or ownership transferred, the government will not only then get payment but they will also get Late Payment Fees and Late Payment Interest which at that stage will be substantial._

In view of the fact that they seem to be sending these letters to landlords on NPPR database regardless of whether they are paying their Household charge or not, I do wonder if I am going to be harassed by these letters in future despite paying the charge.


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## Padraigb

As a compliant taxpayer, I am in favour of all measures taken in an effort to get everybody else to comply with the law.

I got no letter; I didn't need one.


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## regvw

what is in NPPR, is this another tax


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## Time

It is a tax on a house you own that you have the cheek not to live in.


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## PaddyBloggit

regvw said:


> what is in NPPR, is this another tax



https://www.nppr.ie/


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## Greta

Padraigb said:


> As a compliant taxpayer, I am in favour of all measures taken in an effort to get everybody else to comply with the law.
> 
> I got no letter; I didn't need one.



I didn't need a letter either, as I PAID, but got the letter anyway. As far as I am concerned, this is a waste of my money - part of what I paid goes on letters to intimidate me and other compliant taxpayers, along with non-compliant ones. Why bother to cross reference those on NPPR database with those on Household charge database, and send the letters only to those who didn't pay? Why it's much easier to send the letters without bothering to check? After all, if people paid, it will do no harm to intimidate them anyway, right? Just to show them who is the boss?

Maybe you didn't get the letter because you are not on NPPR database? Or because your property is not in the Dublin City Council area? (that's who sent me the stupid letter). Or they send the letters arbitrarily, to a sample of the population, to see what the effect of this intimidation will be?
No idea, but it doesn't make me "comply with the law", as I already do that. It disgusts me. And shows that those who get our money are a bunch of incompetents who probably waste most of this money if they don't even know who paid them and who hasn't.

By the way, the 3rd direct debit payment has now come out of my bank account, as scheduled. It's right there on their database, but I won't be surprised if I get another moronic letter.

And, by the way, such incompetence also means that those who didn't pay will be far less likely to pay now, once they know that they are not singled out for non payment, but rather the letters are send out regardless of payment.


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## Dermot

I did not get this letter but if I do I will ignore it and all the follow on letters until they realise I have paid. I will even let it go to court.  They will probably pass some piece of legislation making that type of action an offence.  Something like wasting some incompetent officials time.  Everyone that has paid should just ignore the letters and see how far they take it.  You cannot be fined or even reprimanded in anyway.


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## Greta

Dermot, kudos to you for being prepared to take a stand, even all the way to court. I'll admit I don't want to take it that far, especially considering that I live outside of Ireland and having to deal with a court in Ireland would be a real pain. I have decided to ignore the first letter and see if any more crap will arrive in future, then I'll think about what to do, if it happens.

It's VERY galling, having paid and then to be treated like this. The stupid letter begins with "it has come to our attention that you may be liable for the Household charge" bla-bla-bla. This is really stupid - I am on their own database!!! With all my payment details up to date, but the morons not thinking it necessary to check!!! It's insulting to compliant taxpayers like myself, while the non compliant ones can now realise what a joke these letters are!

They want me to RING them if I paid, no option of sending a letter or emailing (though there are postal and email contact details on the Household charge website, but not on the letter). No return address, just the words "Dublin City Council". They basically want me to do the work for them, letting them know I paid, because they can't be bothered to check their own database. How stupid is that?!

To be honest, I can not understand why the government has set up two separate databases - for NPPR charge and for Household charge - instead of having one website and database for both? Just to create more confusion and more jobs for incompetent officials? Why are two charges even needed, why not have one charge, set at different rates for owner-occupiers and non-owner occupiers? Stupidity and incompetence, that what I think, all paid for with other money.


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## ontour

Frank said:


> I have made own mind on not paying out of principal.


Have you considered paying out of interest?


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## 3CC

Some of you have decided not to pay the household charge and the argument for and against that has been done to death so I will not repeat it.

Some of you have decided to pay the charge but have received a letter which is admittedly annoying. This could be due to incompetence as you have suggested but it could be due to one of many other reasons also such as genuine error, duplicate entries on the databases, mismatch in the formatting of the multiple databases that are being referenced etc etc. 

So having received the letter you could ignore it and allow them to continue to send letter after letter until finally they get legal and then tell them on the steps of the court that you had actually paid all along. This would give you a bit satisfaction but would incur enormous cost on the public purse.

Or you could just ring them and tell them you paid.

Does that about sum it up?


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## Greta

> This could be due to incompetence as you have suggested but it could be due to one of many other reasons also such as genuine error, duplicate entries on the databases, mismatch in the formatting of the multiple databases that are being referenced etc etc.



"Many other reasons" basically amounts to the same, that is, incompetence. 

"Genuine error" excuse is laughable - what about those who don't pay through "genuine error", will their fines and interest be forgiven? Don't think so. Of course, it's only Joe the Public who gets hit with huge interests, fines, penalties, charges etc. When the government screws up, it's "a genuine error". My details are all on their database, I can see them, why can't they? Because they are incompetent, as simple as. 

Paying as required, then receiving intimidating letters, then having to meekly go ring them, pay for the call, probably waste time on hold, deal with some incompetent bozo (and maybe having to ring them again, due to another "genuine error" on the part of the poor dears) ... all for the "public good", hmmmmm... I am not really so inclined. If people let themselves be trampled all over like that, there is just going to be more incompetence and waste of taxpayers' money. The morons will be encouraged to push their own duties onto the public - why bother checking payment details if you can just threaten people, and they'll do it for you.

I am not really inclined to escalate the matter all the way to court, but if somebody does, I applaud them. A fiasco like that might show up the incompetence and waste going on in public sector and might just possibly result in something being done about it. Lumping it will just result in more of the same.


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## usual

Greta,,Brilliant summary of the real situation,,,,Its a joke,but its not even funny.


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## Dermot

Read your comment 3cc. You have a point but so do we who are getting letters and have paid and given correct and accurate details to them and they have issued receipts for same with the correct details. I did this on line so as to do all of the work for them.  I have paid, I have put it on the computer for them, The computer has returned a correct receipt for this. They are also availing of the Croke Park Agreement which has deemed them to be very efficient otherwise they would have to take a further cut. I will definitely let the Judge here give them a piece of his mind which he will. I will be able to make my own case.


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## 3CC

Greta - I accept that it is possible, maybe even likely, that some of those involved in the administration of the household charge are not fully competent. But it would be reasonable to admit that there may also be other reasons. Not to do so would be to take a very narrow and unsubstantiated view. I imagine that if you were not very happy with the charge in the first place, it would be nice to have the big bad incompetent civil service/government as the object of your ire. If the purpose of your post is to vent frustration, then you are doing it and very well. On the other hand, if the purpose of your post is to make a reasoned balanced criticism of the collection of the household charge then you have fallen short.

Dermot - I agree completely with you that you have a valid point. If you have paid, you should not receive a letter. Whoever sent the letter has definitely messed up. It is clearly completely their fault and not yours. I just wonder if the course that is being proposed is a proportional response. I suggest that if this matter came before the courts, a judge would find that a letter had been sent when it should not; he/she may even find that this was the result of a lack of competence but there is no suggestion that a letter was sent deliberately or out of malice. The court could also find that your refusal to respond to the letter was vexatious and malicious. 

It is difficult to imagine any circumstances in which it would be justifiable to put the public purse to unnecessary (in this case significant) cost just in order to feel you have made a point.


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## truthseeker

3CC said:


> The court could also find that your refusal to respond to the letter was vexatious and malicious.



I think this is rubbish and Id imagine the judge would be in favour of the good citizen who had paid their household charge in the first place. In these straightened times the cost of a phone call to a government department where you get put on hold and passed from incompetent to incompetent might be too much for some people. Why not allow the option of a letter or an email? 

Intimidating people by letter who actually made the payment is not likely to cause any judge to think that the person being intimidated is *vexatious and malicious* because they didnt bother sorting it out at their own cost and to suggest so is simply scaremongering.


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## 3CC

truthseeker - the only reason I can see in your post for not ringing to clarify that you have paid would be the cost of the call and presumption that you would be put on hold and passed from person to person. 

I agree it would be better if they gave an email or postal address to contact. 

I would be interested to know exactly of the wording in the letter that you consider intimidating if you would be kind enough to post it? I have to say that the words quoted by Greta above ('it has come to our attention that you may be liable for the Household charge') sound very reasonable albeit that this is just a snippet and may not be in context.

It does seem to me, based on the comments in this thread, that a decision to force a trivial matter like this to court when there is a much simpler solution is driven by a desire to vex the authorities and is born of malice. If Dermot can convince the judge that his actions were driven by a sense of civic duty and were reasonable then he has nothing to fear.

My core point as to whether people consider it is reasonable to force enormous expense on the public purse over a matter could be easily resolved with a phone call (maybe even a long phone call) has gone unanswered by all posts to date.


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## Time

I would ignore any letter where the charge has been paid correctly and let them go to court. I would then slap them down with a costs order.


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## elcato

> Why not allow the option of a letter or an email?


Sums up the whole thread imo.


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## mf1

These details any help? 


Contact Us
	Please contact the Household Charge customer service department at the following address. 	


Address: 	Household Charge
PO Box 12168
Dublin 1
Telephone: 	1890-357357 or 00353-1-2224000
E-Mail: 	support@householdcharge.ie


mf


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## truthseeker

3CC said:


> truthseeker - the only reason I can see in your post for not ringing to clarify that you have paid would be the cost of the call and presumption that you would be put on hold and passed from person to person.
> 
> I agree it would be better if they gave an email or postal address to contact.
> 
> I would be interested to know exactly of the wording in the letter that you consider intimidating if you would be kind enough to post it? I have to say that the words quoted by Greta above ('it has come to our attention that you may be liable for the Household charge') sound very reasonable albeit that this is just a snippet and may not be in context.
> 
> It does seem to me, based on the comments in this thread, that a decision to force a trivial matter like this to court when there is a much simpler solution is driven by a desire to vex the authorities and is born of malice. If Dermot can convince the judge that his actions were driven by a sense of civic duty and were reasonable then he has nothing to fear.
> 
> My core point as to whether people consider it is reasonable to force enormous expense on the public purse over a matter could be easily resolved with a phone call (maybe even a long phone call) has gone unanswered by all posts to date.



3CC - I have not received any letter, I was posting my own opinion - it was Greta who used the word intimidation in relation to the letter.

Perhaps if someone did stand up to an incompetent system that allows people who have paid to be harrassed by letter and then expected to sort it out at their own expense it might persuade those in charge to do the job properly in the first place? The household charge has been contentious enough without making the fiasco worse by annoying those who actually paid!

The fact they are sending these letters to both those who have paid and those who havent just shows that they havent a clue who has paid what, who is liable to pay what, and there seems to be no cross checking going on.


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## Frank

Which makes me want to pay less and less truth seeker.

You pay you get letters you don't pay you get letters.

If I for one second believed this money would actually be used for services and make things better I would pay. 

I don't believe and this government is not convincing me.

Maybe the person that was supposed to be cross checking was out sick.


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## Dermot

Just to give you an example of incompetence and a system out of control 3CC I emailed a very small Co Co office in this country of ours with a query.  I got 8 acknowledgements that my email had been received. Each email reply to me explained that it was received and had been passed to the appropriate person and that the matter would be explained in the very near future.  It was just a query and they would have known that I would need the answer within 7 days.  I never received the answer and this is over 13 months later.  I found the answer myself 2 days later.  I could quote several other situations that would not be accepted elsewhere


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## 3CC

If you honestly believe that not responding to the letters and allowing the matter to proceed to court would improve the system, then go for it. I do not believe it will make any meaningful difference and that you will put yourself and the other side to unnecessary hassle and cost. Maybe a strongly worded email to the address provided by mf1 above would be more effective.


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## ednwireland

got one of these myself , knew it would happen, i have all the receipts for the property sitting next to me. why do i get a bill because the registration only allows one name and the house is in two.

any simpleton knows this would cause chaos i am so tempted to let them take me to court but cant afford the time off work to go and hand in a load of receipts to the judge

guess what the household charge will be worse

i am writing to my public representatives first by the way


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## Frank

Is 3cc Phil hogan?????


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## oldnick

There are so many posts on this and so many arguments for and against that I won't repeat them.

My query is - what will law-abiding guys, like me who have paid NPPR and property charges do next year when they get a much bigger property charges ?

It's one thing to be annoyed this year at paying when others have not.
It's far worse to continue paying even higher charges when those non-payers are getting away with it .

If the government are basically doing nothing serious to collect those charges they are effectively telling me that I'm an idiot for having paid  this year and a complete lunatic if I pay any more.


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## Complainer

oldnick said:


> If the government are basically doing nothing serious to collect those charges they are effectively telling me that I'm an idiot for having paid  this year and a complete lunatic if I pay any more.


Why would you think that they are doing nothing serious, given the earlier posts on this thread?


			
				Frank;1274969
Maybe the person that was supposed to be cross checking was out sick.[/QUOTE said:
			
		

> Or maybe one of the addresses had an Irish language version and one didn't. Or maybe the owner used an Irish language name on one database, but not the other.
> Or maybe there was a slight variation in the address used in one database - my gas bill ALWAYS comes to a slightly different address to all other bills.
> There are a ton of possible reasons for these small variations affecting a relatively small number of people.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Frank;1274969
> You pay you get letters you don't pay you get letters.
> [/QUOTE said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or to be more accurate,
> You pay *and a small percentage of* you get letters you don't pay you get letters.
Click to expand...


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## Purple

How do you know it's a small percentage? If it is that's great but how do you know? 
I agree with you general point though.
I paid within the first two weeks and I didn't get a letter. If I did get one I wouldn't be upset, I'd just presume it's a mistake and I'd ignore it.


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## pc7

Frank said:


> I am curious to what people reckon will happen next?


 
To answer this part of OP post, a DCC councillor has told me there will be a further 2 letters sent to remind those who have received this first letter. After that 3rd letter then things will escalate and be taken further.  Worth noting said councillor hasn't paid charge either.


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## demoivre

oldnick said:


> There are so many posts on this and so many arguments for and against that I won't repeat them.
> 
> My query is - what will law-abiding guys, like me who have paid NPPR and property charges do next year when they get a much bigger property charges ?
> 
> It's one thing to be annoyed this year at paying when others have not.
> It's far worse to continue paying even higher charges when those non-payers are getting away with it .
> 
> If the government are basically doing nothing serious to collect those charges



The aren't and the position will remain so as long as people have the option of paying in 10 years time ( or whenever ), which they are entitled do if they pay the interest and penalties !


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## Sunny

And now they are talking about a second letter and then legal action within months. Anyone I know that hasn't paid it haven't even received one letter. It's a complete joke. 

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0816/household-charge-legal-action.html


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## bazermc

I also got reminders for the guy that previously owned my house, however the council never put a return address on the envelope, so that went straight in the bin!!!!!


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## Protocol

Sunny said:


> And now they are talking about a second letter and then legal action within months. Anyone I know that hasn't paid it haven't even received one letter. It's a complete joke.
> 
> http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0816/household-charge-legal-action.html


 
Sunny,

the first letter was sent to landlords only.


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## truthseeker

Protocol said:


> Sunny,
> 
> the first letter was sent to landlords only.



With no regard for whether or not they had paid.


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## markpb

truthseeker said:


> With no regard for whether or not they had paid.



+1

I got a letter saying I hadn't paid even though I had. I compared the address they sent it to with the address I registered the HHC with and they were identical. Lazy, lazy. I sent an email to DCC saying thay I had paid but they never replied.


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## elefantfresh

How can there be legal action within months? It says on the HHC site, that there is a late payment fee scale in place.



> A person who does not pay the Household Charge by the payment date leaves themselves open to a late payment fee plus interest.  Furthermore, the Household Charge and any accumulated late payment fee plus interest will be a charge against the property concerned and will continue to be such for twelve years after the charge or late payment fees plus interest concerned became due.


https://www.householdcharge.ie/

For example, if I chose to pay it today, I'd have to pay €115 late payment fee +%


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## Time

I doubt there will be any legal action. This is just Phil Hogan trying to scare people.


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## Bronte

I received a letter even though I'd paid in plenty of time.  I think they sent it to me because I'm listed under the NPPR.  As the letter asked I telephoned them and now I'm off their list.  Interestingly the letter was posted in Dublin which is not the country where the property is.  

Since I've paid, all those that I know who haven't paid can well afford to pay it.  But the fines will get them in the end.  A lot of people are only now walking up to the reality of the NPPR penalties and it's not pleasant.


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## werner

Bronte said:


> I received a letter even though I'd paid in plenty of time. I think they sent it to me because I'm listed under the NPPR. As the letter asked I telephoned them and now I'm off their list. Interestingly the letter was posted in Dublin which is not the country where the property is.
> 
> Since I've paid, all those that I know who haven't paid can well afford to pay it. But the fines will get them in the end. A lot of people are only now walking up to the reality of the NPPR penalties and it's not pleasant.


 
After hearing Joan Burton's comments in the below I think some Ministers and TD's are only now waking up to the reality that their seats will be gone in the next election!
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/c...-take-more-pain-says-joan-burton-3203546.html

Bully boy tactics by the likes of Phil Hogan will destroy any support that FG gained in the recent election as well


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## Frank

2nd reminder arrived today.

Anyone else get one?


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## Time

Nope. Still waiting for my first letter.


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## Frank

only got one for the nppr house feel a bit of a fool for signing up for it now.


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## seantheman

werner said:


> Bully boy tactics by the likes of Phil Hogan will destroy any support that FG gained in the recent election as well


 Not trying to condone some Big Phil's gaffes but what are the alternatives?
Bed Charge Micheal,Young Dev, Master McGrath, Shotgun Willie and the crew or
Fork tongued Gerry,Hairdo MaryLou,Xerox Aengus and their gang or there's
Ming the Bogman, Vat Micko ,Poor Claire and Joe the Red.
Not really a star studded lineup is it?


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## Frank

So the lack of alternative is good reason to just keep taking the never ending charges on charges.

See your point though FG no different than FF and Labour have sold there souls to get into power.

deja vu without a rotting carcase of the tiger stinking up the whole economy.

As long as the developers can still get paid 200k by NAMA that makes it all ok.


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## monore

I think they are now seriously worried. The first round of letters had very little effect. Now they are trying threats of legal action, cutting local services etc. But the reality is that at approx 800,000 households ( not the 600,000 they are saying) have not registered. 

To maintain respect for a law with this level of non compliance is unsustainable. It means they can't now introduce a property tax or another household charge in 2013.


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## mandelbrot

monore said:


> To maintain respect for a law with this level of non compliance is unsustainable. It means they can't now introduce a property tax or another household charge in 2013.


 
I don't see how this necessarily follows from the earlier point.

A lot of people object to the fact that the household charge was a flat amount, and therefore inherently unfair - a graded tax would probably enjoy greater support.

Also AFAIK the property tax will be administered / collected by Revenue, which is a completely different kettle of fish to the local authorities.

Not that I wish to scaremonger but I would expect non-compliance with the property tax would also increase the risk of Revenue audit, as Revenue's risk systems look for behavioural indicators, and flat out non-compliance with a particular tax would surely be taken as a serious indicator about a taxpayer's willingness to comply generally... (i.e. "I disagree with the property tax, so I'm not paying it" could lead to "I don't think the VAT rate should have been raised from 21% to 23%, so I'm going to hold back 2%...")


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## truthseeker

mandelbrot said:


> Not that I wish to scaremonger but I would expect non-compliance with the property tax would also increase the risk of Revenue audit, as Revenue's risk systems look for behavioural indicators, and flat out non-compliance with a particular tax would surely be taken as a serious indicator about a taxpayer's willingness to comply generally... (i.e. "I disagree with the property tax, so I'm not paying it" could lead to "I don't think the VAT rate should have been raised from 21% to 23%, so I'm going to hold back 2%...")



Why would this be scary? Most people are not in fact trying to defraud Revenue.

I couldnt care less if Revenue audited me, and Im sure most people would feel the same.


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## mandelbrot

truthseeker said:


> Why would this be scary? Most people are not in fact trying to defraud Revenue.
> 
> I couldnt care less if Revenue audited me, and Im sure most people would feel the same.


 
Really?! Having worked in accountancy practice, most clients nearly lost their life when they'd get an audit notification - maybe they all had something to hide!

Even if you don't have anything to hide, Revenue audits can be quite intrusive, involving lots of personal questions about people's finances etc... so perhaps I should have said I don't want to "discomfort-monger"


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## truthseeker

mandelbrot said:


> Really?! Having worked in accountancy practice, most clients nearly lost their life when they'd get an audit notification - maybe they all had something to hide!
> 
> Even if you don't have anything to hide, Revenue audits can be quite intrusive, involving lots of personal questions about people's finances etc... so perhaps I should have said I don't want to "discomfort-monger"



All you could do with me is take my payslips and look at my bank accounts. Im sure if you are self employed its a bigger paperwork deal. I mean, I can see its a hassle, but if most people are compliant then whats the worry? Most workers are PAYE so they couldnt be non compliant on income tax.

As far as the household charge goes its certainly not something Id be concerned about, the only people who would be worried about a Revenue audit are those with something to hide or messy paperwork and surely those people would worry about an audit anyway regardless of the household charge?

Id be perfectly happy for revenue to come and sit in my sitting room going over my finances - might get some advice!


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## T McGibney

mandelbrot said:


> *Not that I wish to scaremonger but* I would expect non-compliance with the property tax would also increase the risk of Revenue audit, as Revenue's risk systems look for behavioural indicators, and flat out non-compliance with a particular tax would surely be taken as a serious indicator about a taxpayer's willingness to comply generally... (i.e. "I disagree with the property tax, so I'm not paying it" could lead to "I don't think the VAT rate should have been raised from 21% to 23%, so I'm going to hold back 2%...")



This is scaremongering, and rather ineffective scaremongering at that. Most PAYE workers and dole recipients will scoff at the idea of a Revenue Audit. If Revenue divert their audit resources away from business audits in a quixotic attempt to enforce property tax compliance, the consequences will not be pretty, least of all for the Exchequer.


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## monore

mandelbrot said:


> A lot of people object to the fact that the household charge was a flat amount, and therefore inherently unfair - a graded tax would probably enjoy greater support.
> 
> Also AFAIK the property tax will be administered / collected by Revenue, which is a completely different kettle of fish to the local authorities.
> 
> )



Problem is that govt was depending on Household Charge registrations for database on which to base property tax. There are now hundreds of thousands of names and addresses missing from that database. 

Currently Household Charge is collected centrally by govt agency. They want to transfer collection of property tax to revenue and yet continue to try to link it to local govt who have had effectively no input into devising and collecting these new taxes. The whole thing is now a shambles and the scaremongering and threats show that those responsible for this fiasco are beginning to panic.


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## Complainer

Time said:


> I doubt there will be any legal action. This is just Phil Hogan trying to scare people.


How did you come to that conclusion? What makes you think that the 1,000,000 people who HAVE paid their tax will stand by and let others get away with it?



Bronte said:


> Interestingly the letter was posted in Dublin which is not the country where the property is.


All the admin is being done by the LGMA at an operations centre on Ormond Quay in Dublin.



mandelbrot said:


> I don't see how this necessarily follows from the earlier point.
> 
> A lot of people object to the fact that the household charge was a flat amount, and therefore inherently unfair - a graded tax would probably enjoy greater support.


Indeed, and don't forget the 1,000,000 who have already paid and don't want to see a minority getting away with evading tax.



monore said:


> Problem is that govt was depending on Household Charge registrations for database on which to base property tax. There are now hundreds of thousands of names and addresses missing from that database.


Where did you get this figure of hundreds of thousands of missing names? The fact that people haven't paid yet doesn't mean their name is missing.

Regardless, time is on the side of the Government. It's not a huge deal for the Govt if it takes two or three or four years to catch up the few evaders, as the penalties mount all the time. With each development in technology, the Govt will be increasing the size and quality of their database, and will catch up with more and more people over time.


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## mandelbrot

T McGibney said:


> This is scaremongering, and rather ineffective scaremongering at that. Most PAYE workers and dole recipients will scoff at the idea of a Revenue Audit. If Revenue divert their audit resources away from business audits in a quixotic attempt to enforce property tax compliance, the consequences will not be pretty, least of all for the Exchequer.



Firstly, thank you for helping me finally get around to looking up the meaning of quixotic!

I may not have been clear in my first post above: I was talking primarily about business customers, of whom there are surely tens of thousands (if not more) sole traders, partners and directors, who have chosen not to pay the HC. If the REAP system is fed information about the property tax (and you would expect that it will be if Revenue administer it), then non compliance with it will increase a person's perceived riskiness.

This means that all other things being equal, a person who hasn't paid their property tax will get audited before the person who has. It doesn't mean that someone with an otherwise pristine risk assessment will get audited purely by virtue of property tax non compliance. It does mean, as I said originally, that it does make one more likely to be audited.


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## monore

Complainer said:


> How did you come to that conclusion? What makes you think that the 1,000,000 people who HAVE paid their tax will stand by and let others get away with it?
> 
> 
> All the admin is being done by the LGMA at an operations centre on Ormond Quay in Dublin.
> 
> 
> Indeed, and don't forget the 1,000,000 who have already paid and don't want to see a minority getting away with evading tax.
> .



A million have not paid. That is govt spin. And resentment from those that have paid towards those who were principled or smart enough to not pay although understandable is misguided. Why not direct your anger against speculator bondholders that you gladly bailed out rather that your struggling neighbor for his refusal to pay gambling debts of international hedge funds.


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## monore

Complainer said:


> Where did you get this figure of hundreds of thousands of missing names? The fact that people haven't paid yet doesn't mean their name is missing.
> 
> Regardless, time is on the side of the Government..



Time is not on side of govt. They have to decide pretty soon whether to proceed with property tax next year or have another HouseholdCharge. They don't have database for property tax and another year of Household Charge would be a disaster given numbers that haven't paid this year.


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## Complainer

monore said:


> A million have not paid. That is govt spin.



[broken link removed]

Just let me understand your claim fully here - you are suggesting that the specific figures given in this press release are incorrect, and have been inflated to support the Govt's point - that's one of the bases of your arguement here - right?




monore said:


> And resentment from those that have paid towards those who were principled or smart enough to not pay although understandable is misguided. Why not direct your anger against speculator bondholders that you gladly bailed out rather that your struggling neighbor for his refusal to pay gambling debts of international hedge funds.



We are where we are. I don't like where we are, and I don't like how we got here, but we are where we are. The Household Charge amounts would barely be a drop in the ocean of what we've paid out on banking debt. This is a red herring, designed to avoid implementation of one of a progressive tax instrument. 



monore said:


> Time is not on side of govt. They have to decide pretty soon whether to proceed with property tax next year or have another HouseholdCharge. They don't have database for property tax and another year of Household Charge would be a disaster given numbers that haven't paid this year.



There is no disaster here. The majority have paid, and the remainder will be sucked in as time goes on, with all the extra penalties on top.


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## monore

Complainer said:


> [broken link removed]
> 
> Just let me understand your claim fully here - you are suggesting that the specific figures given in this press release are incorrect, and have been inflated to support the Govt's point - that's one of the bases of your arguement here - right?



Priceless. You claim that a million have paid. I dispute this claim and you come back and support you claim that a million have paid with a link with stats to show that less than a million have paid.

However where I believe the govt is lying is in their claim that their are only 1.6 million liable households. Census last year had over 2 million households in Ireland. At most only 250,000 of these households would be exempt.


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## monore

Complainer said:


> [broken link removed]
> 
> 
> We are where we are. ........ a progressive tax instrument.
> 
> .



Haven't heard that phrase since FF TDs were banned from using it before last election.  So you think that the Household Charge is a progressive tax instrument.  We fundamentally disagree.


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## Firefly

Complainer said:


> The Household Charge amounts would barely be a drop in the ocean of what we've paid out on *banking debt*....


 
Which is only a fraction itself of the budget deficit debt...


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## netz

I didnt pay, I dont agree with it, and to be totally honest, I really havent got the money. I never got a letter, and dont really care if I do. I dont want to be breaking the law, but my position is, if I had known when I initially bought my house that I would have to pay a property tax every year on it, I would probably not have bought at all. This tax will be every year for the rest of my life, long after the (NEGATIVE EQUITY AT THE MOMENT) mortgage is finished, and I will be struggling to pay it out of OAP. 

I was worried when I saw the reports of 2nd letters and threats of legal action - Ive never even had so much as a speeding fine in my life - and I think it is deplorable that I am now choosing to break the law, rather than pay. I know I will be frightened and feel bullied if I do get a letter, but I will on principle stick to my decision not to pay. I live in an estate with over 100 houses in it, and only 2 houses that I know of have paid. I dont believe the compliance figures the government is spilling out to us either - they just dont add up


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## mandelbrot

monore said:


> Priceless. You claim that a million have paid. I dispute this claim and you come back and support you claim that a million have paid with a link with stats to show that less than a million have paid.


 
Hold on, are you actually splitting hairs over the distinction between 990,459 and 1 million , or am I missing something?


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## monore

mandelbrot said:


> Hold on, are you actually splitting hairs over the distinction between 990,459 and 1 million:



Perhaps a tad pedantic. I was more commenting on his correcting and challenging my correction with a link to figures which undermined his claim and confirmed  my correction.


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## orka

monore said:


> Perhaps a tad pedantic. I was more commenting on his correcting and challenging my correction with a link to figures which undermined his claim and confirmed my correction.


Except it didn't undermine his claim and confirm your correction - it confirmed his claim as any reasonable person would agree that 'a million' have paid when the actual number is 990K...  
The tone of your 'a million have not paid, that is government spin' was more 'don't be ridiculous, it's nowhere near that number' than 'well, putting my pedantic hat on, I would have to dispute the exactness of that assertion...' 

I personally think there should be a sticker to put in your front window when you have paid the charge (or have a waiver) so it is easy to spot the houses that haven't and target them.  Particularly in urban areas, it would be a relatively easy task to drive around and write down the address that didn't have the stickers - obviously some people will forget/not want to put up the sticker but there will be a record of payment somewhere to clear that up.


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## Protocol

netz said:


> I didnt pay, I dont agree with it, and to be totally honest, I really havent got the money. I never got a letter, and dont really care if I do. I dont want to be breaking the law, but my position is, if I had known when I initially bought my house that I would have to pay a property tax every year on it, I would probably not have bought at all. This tax will be every year for the rest of my life, long after the (NEGATIVE EQUITY AT THE MOMENT) mortgage is finished, and I will be struggling to pay it out of OAP.
> 
> I was worried when I saw the reports of 2nd letters and threats of legal action - Ive never even had so much as a speeding fine in my life - and I think it is deplorable that I am now choosing to break the law, rather than pay. I know I will be frightened and feel bullied if I do get a letter, but I will on principle stick to my decision not to pay. I live in an estate with over 100 houses in it, and only 2 houses that I know of have paid. I dont believe the compliance figures the government is spilling out to us either - they just dont add up


 
The first round of reminder letters was sent to landlords only.

You own a house, and yet you can't afford 100 euro??  How do you manage with repairs, maintenance, insurance, etc.

The State Pension is 11,960pa, so 100 is affordable.

It's impossible to know compliance rates in any estate.


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## elcato

> I personally think there should be a sticker to put in your front window  when you have paid the charge (or have a waiver) so it is easy to spot  the houses that haven't and target them.


While I kinda agree with this (similar to bin stickers), I would think it may be dangerous as no doubt a campaign of us and them will start. You can't expect adults to behave in a rational way can you ?


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## Frank

protocol you may own your house but I am mortgaged up to my eyes.

I stupidly didn't sell my house as the market was plummeting, with no movement in the market. Silly me.
I felt I had no choice but to rent and become a landlord. We are not all there by choice.
The crystal ball was broken that week.

I have paid PAYE since 16 
Tax on income from property 
NPPR again I feel silly for doing this now.
I have never had the benefit of a tax amnesty.

Easy for those with plenty to pontificate.

We will pay a levy to pay the Quinn debacle 
The social charge willl probably never go away.
We are getting less for PRSI.

I am getting tired of assuming the position.


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## netz

Protocol said:


> You own a house, and yet you can't afford 100 euro??  How do you manage with repairs, maintenance, insurance, etc.
> 
> The State Pension is 11,960pa, so 100 is affordable.
> 
> It's impossible to know compliance rates in any estate.



We own a mortgage, not the house - yet! Our income has dropped considerably in the 6 years since we bought the house, and we are currently on reduced payments as we cant afford to pay the full mortgage. And we stupidly allowed ourselves a 30 year mortgage - paying untill we are 75 years old - if we live that long. And at that stage the 100 household charge will have grown into approx. €1500 a year in property and water tax - combined with mortgage payments out of OAP??? We know it is our own fault, we like many others were carried away on that cloud of reckless lending by the banks - I was on SW when we got a huge mortgage, and we didnt lie about our circumstances either - they gave us the amount we stupidly asked for, and offered us more which we had the sense to refuse. We live in an ordinary house, probably worth half what we paid for it, so please dont judge us for being struggling home owners, or should I rephrase that to "mortgage holders". And like I said, if I knew 6 years ago that I would be hit for a property/water tax, which could possibly hit the €1500 region - every year for the length of time we stay as owners, there is no way on earth we would have ever considered buying our own home. 

As for the compliance rates - it is not possible to tell on an estate who has or hasnt paid - I am just conveying what has been said to me, and trusting that what I am being told is the truth - I am sure there is the odd person who may have paid the charge, but feels like the odd one out so pretends they havent for whatever reason, and that is entirely their own business.

Everyone's circumstances are different - lots of people are asset rich and cash poor, they might live in big houses with huge negative equity mortgages, and have no job, caught in catch 22 cause they cannot sell. Thats why this charge is so unfair.


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## Complainer

mandelbrot said:


> Hold on, are you actually splitting hairs over the distinction between 990,459 and 1 million , or am I missing something?


Yeah, but don't be too hard on him. He missed the figure for the number of waivers, which brought it over the million.



monore said:


> However where I believe the govt is lying is in their claim that their are only 1.6 million liable households. Census last year had over 2 million households in Ireland. At most only 250,000 of these households would be exempt.


Fascinating - and your source for the 250k figure is?


monore said:


> So you think that the Household Charge is a progressive tax instrument.  We fundamentally disagree.


Actually, you're right. The Household is NOT a progressive tax instrument. When it moves on to be a property tax in proportion to the value or size of the property, then it will be a progressive tax instrument. So give it a year or two.



netz said:


> I didnt pay, I dont agree with it, and to be totally honest, I really havent got the money. I never got a letter, and dont really care if I do. I dont want to be breaking the law, but my position is, if I had known when I initially bought my house that I would have to pay a property tax every year on it, I would probably not have bought at all. This tax will be every year for the rest of my life, long after the (NEGATIVE EQUITY AT THE MOMENT) mortgage is finished, and I will be struggling to pay it out of OAP.
> 
> I was worried when I saw the reports of 2nd letters and threats of legal action - Ive never even had so much as a speeding fine in my life - and I think it is deplorable that I am now choosing to break the law, rather than pay. I know I will be frightened and feel bullied if I do get a letter, but I will on principle stick to my decision not to pay. I live in an estate with over 100 houses in it, and only 2 houses that I know of have paid. I dont believe the compliance figures the government is spilling out to us either - they just dont add up


Honestly, who are you trying to kid. This wouldn't have affected your decision to buy a house. Unless you had some kind of written guarantee from future governments yet to be created, you'd have done what everyone else does - bought the best house you can afford and then do everything you can to hold onto it.



Protocol said:


> It's impossible to know compliance rates in any estate.


Dead right.


Frank said:


> protocol you may own your house but I am mortgaged up to my eyes.
> 
> I stupidly didn't sell my house as the market was plummeting, with no movement in the market. Silly me.
> I felt I had no choice but to rent and become a landlord. We are not all there by choice.
> The crystal ball was broken that week.
> 
> I have paid PAYE since 16
> Tax on income from property
> NPPR again I feel silly for doing this now.
> I have never had the benefit of a tax amnesty.
> 
> Easy for those with plenty to pontificate.
> 
> We will pay a levy to pay the Quinn debacle
> The social charge willl probably never go away.
> We are getting less for PRSI.
> 
> I am getting tired of assuming the position.



It's not those with plenty who are pontificating Frank. It is those who are worried about how they'll keep a car on the road when petrol hits €2, and how they'll keep the house warm when gas goes up correspondingly. You don't have a monopoly on money worries.


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## netz

Complainer said:


> Honestly, who are you trying to kid. This wouldn't have affected your decision to buy a house. Unless you had some kind of written guarantee from future governments yet to be created, you'd have done what everyone else does - bought the best house you can afford and then do everything you can to hold onto it.



Eh not trying to "kid" anyone. We wouldn't have bought it. We were renting our house from the council and they gave us the opportunity to purchase. Simple as that. Same house, expect now it's mortgaged to Bank of Scotland instead of rented by the council. And liable for property tax where as if we stayed renting it would not be.


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## truthseeker

Complainer said:


> Honestly, who are you trying to kid. This wouldn't have affected your decision to buy a house. Unless you had some kind of written guarantee from future governments yet to be created, you'd have done what everyone else does - bought the best house you can afford and then do everything you can to hold onto it.



Totally would have affected my decision to buy also. Not the 100 HC but the notion of future property taxes of a much larger sum. We have never had property taxes in this country - why would I or anyone else have expected them? Our current leader was pontificating that "Any tax on a persons home is immoral, unjust and unfair". It simply wasnt on my radar to consider it.


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## truthseeker

Complainer said:


> What makes you think that the 1,000,000 people who HAVE paid their tax will stand by and let others get away with it?



Hahahahaha! What are they going to do about it exactly? Maybe theyll sit by instead of stand by.


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## Protocol

netz said:


> pay the full mortgage. And we stupidly allowed ourselves a 30 year mortgage - paying untill we are 75 years old - if we live that long. And at that stage the 100 household charge will have grown into approx. €1500 a year in property and water tax - combined with mortgage payments out of OAP??? We know it is our own fault, we like many others were carried away on that cloud of reckless lending by the banks - I was on SW when we got a huge mortgage, and we didnt lie about our circumstances either - they gave us the amount we stupidly asked for, and offered us more which we had the sense to refuse. We live in an ordinary house, probably worth half what we paid for it, so please dont judge us for being struggling home owners, or should I rephrase that to "mortgage holders". And like I said, if I knew 6 years ago that I would be hit for a property/water tax, which could possibly hit the €1500 region - every year for the length of time we stay as owners, there is no way on earth we would have ever considered buying our own home.


 
I sympathise with you.

Mortgages beyond 25years should have been banned, as well as mortgages beyond 80-85% LTV.  _*This has still not happened*_.

This would have prevented excessive borrowing, and kept house prices low.

Loose lending criteria has hurt both banks and borrowers.

I feel the eventual property tax will be more like 500pa, and maybe 250pa for water.  I don't believe it will be 1500pa.


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## monore

orka said:


> I personally think there should be a sticker to put in your front window when you have paid the charge (or have a waiver) so it is easy to spot the houses that haven't and target them.



You're getting your ideas from the Nazi persecution of the Jews in 1930's Germany. You believe turning resentful Household Charge payers against their neighbours in order to defend Big Phils Final Solution is possible and practical.


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## elcato

> You're getting your ideas from the Nazi persecution of the Jews in 1930's Germany.


Yawn. Godwin's law. thread closed.


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