# Estate agent copying keys to common entrance for other units



## lantus (25 Feb 2014)

A hypothetical here.

 If an OMC were to upgrade its common entrance security systems and as a result enforced the lease relating to access and service fee's paid only issuing keys to those members who were contractually compliant. 

 What would stop say an estate agent from just copying those keys and passing them onto non paying unit owners and their tenants and claiming ignorance as to how they got them?

 Would the agent of committed a crime of any sort?


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## Time (25 Feb 2014)

No. Not a crime in the criminal sense.

He may have breached an agreement with the OMC. The OMC would have to sue in a civil court for damages.


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## lantus (25 Feb 2014)

Time said:


> No. Not a crime in the criminal sense.
> 
> He may have breached an agreement with the OMC. The OMC would have to sue in a civil court for damages.


 
 thought as much, another opportunity for estate agents operating as they please.

 What if they were made to sign a bit of paper where they agreed not to copy or distribute the keys/access codes without exclusive permission of the company. Would it be worth anything?


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## Time (25 Feb 2014)

Again it would only be enforceable in a civil court.


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## Bronte (25 Feb 2014)

lantus said:


> thought as much, another opportunity for estate agents operating as they please.
> 
> What if they were made to sign a bit of paper where they agreed not to copy or distribute the keys/access codes without exclusive permission of the company. Would it be worth anything?


 
Instead of keys would a code be a better way to do things.  And the code could be changed regularly and only communicated to those who are fully compliant.


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## Time (25 Feb 2014)

Bronte said:


> Instead of keys would a code be a better way to do things.  And the code could be changed regularly and only communicated to those who are fully compliant.



Indeed. Also with keys other unit owners may give copies to the non compliant owners.


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## Leo (25 Feb 2014)

Could you replace the locks with higher security ones like those manufactured by Mul-T-Lock  where a locksmith will ask to see the key card and customer identity before making a copy?


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## Brendan Burgess (25 Feb 2014)

I very much doubt if an OMC can block people from their homes for non-payment.

Brendan


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## lantus (25 Feb 2014)

unique non copy keys is a great idea!

 I don't believe the OMC would be blocking anyone from their unit. They would be withdrawing the service of use of the common areas and the associated right of access based on the unit owners breach of contract by non payment of service fees to which such access and rights is wholly conditional upon.

 not every lease may say this but I would imagine most do and many OMC's have undertaken such action already which is within their rights. They are responding to a contractual breach initiated by the unit owner.

 its a bit like saying sky cant cancel my tv just because I have stopped paying because I have a right to my tv. nonsense.


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## Bronte (26 Feb 2014)

lantus said:


> . They would be withdrawing the service of use of the common areas and the associated right of access based on the unit owners breach of contract by non payment of service fees to which such access and rights is wholly conditional upon.
> 
> .


 
That doesn't sound right, don't they own the common areas?  If people are not paying what they should there must be other ways of making them compliant.  I believe poster Sheshells (or is it seashells) is an expert in this area, have a look at her posts.


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## shesells (26 Feb 2014)

Bronte said:


> That doesn't sound right, don't they own the common areas?  If people are not paying what they should there must be other ways of making them compliant.  I believe poster Sheshells (or is it seashells) is an expert in this area, have a look at her posts.



Aww thanks *blushes*. I'm not an expert, just someone who has learned a lot of this stuff the hard way as a director of our MC and who is happy to share.

The access thing is completely dependent on the leases but yes it can happen that the management company may go so far as to not give keys to common areas including hallways to non compliant units. 

The management company own the common areas and grant access to leaseholders. Where a leaseholder is not compliant with the terms of their lease the management company can withdraw services if other avenues have been exhausted. It tends to work where a unit is rented as the landlord faces the tenants leaving/not paying rent for denied services. 

More common than withdrawing access to buildings would be withdrawal of access to car parking. It's quite effective and the least disruptive. We're about to introduce permit parking in our development as a fee collection tool, too many absentee landlords who haven't engaged with our agent or solicitors regarding accumulated arrears.


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## jdwex (27 Feb 2014)

One other method if you use communal water tanks/pumps to supply water to apartments would be to *reduce* the water pressure to non-compliant units -  I think Irish Water will be doing similar.


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## lantus (27 Feb 2014)

jdwex said:


> One other method if you use communal water tanks/pumps to supply water to apartments would be to *reduce* the water pressure to non-compliant units - I think Irish Water will be doing similar.


 
 good idea.

 what about other services like power and gas?


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## jdwex (27 Feb 2014)

lantus said:


> good idea.
> 
> what about other services like power and gas?



Nope, as the OMC wouldn't really be involved in the supply. Where I live, the OMC have to maintain the tanks/pumps to supply the units.


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## T McGibney (27 Feb 2014)

jdwex said:


> One other method if you use communal water tanks/pumps to supply water to apartments would be to *reduce* the water pressure to non-compliant units -  I think Irish Water will be doing similar.



I can't for the life of me see how an OMC could legally interfere in the delivery of a paid service or utility from a service provider to a consumer. 

The example of Irish Water is not a valid analogy as in that case Irish Water is the service provider, and presumably such actions are detailed or consistent with the terms of the agreed service contract.


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## jdwex (27 Feb 2014)

The omc has to pay for the maintenance of the water tanks and the costs of pumping the water to the apartments.


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## Bronte (28 Feb 2014)

shesells said:


> Aww thanks *blushes*. I'm not an expert, just someone who has learned a lot of this stuff the hard way as a director of our MC and who is happy to share.


 
You absolutely are an expert, I've read many of your posts on this and you are the most knowledgeable person on this topic precisely because you learned it the hard way. You should set yourself up as a consultant to advice other Management companies as a heck of a lot of them seem to have problems.


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## em_cat (28 Feb 2014)

We had this issue arise recently within our development, the managing agent decided to disable the fob access for residents who where in arrears with fees, however a resident was successful in obtaining an injunction against the OMC & MA as the only way residents can access their units is via a communal area that is entered from street level, or alternatively from the carpark. 

So given this situation seems to be different in many cases, I think you will need to check with a Specialised Property Solicitor as they are the best experts when it comes to Lease vs Easements and right of ways. Also it can be highly dependant on many aspects of Property Law which in itself is a minefield.


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## shesells (28 Feb 2014)

Bronte said:


> You absolutely are an expert, I've read many of your posts on this and you are the most knowledgeable person on this topic precisely because you learned it the hard way. You should set yourself up as a consultant to advice other Management companies as a heck of a lot of them seem to have problems.



I have to credit Purpeller too, author of the stickies on this forum. Another person who has worked hard and shared experience and knowledge on here.

Em_cat has a point but before engaging a legal professional the starting point must be the leases. I've seen all kinds of clauses in leases, not necessarily ours, but one that suggested an owner may forfeit their lease entirely where they are non compliant with their obligations. Not sure how that would be enforceable where there are mortgages on the property but it's just an example of the information and clauses in leases that people sign without considering. Most leases look like legalese but are actually easy to read and understand with a little concentration.


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