# 30kmh limit to protect cyclists and pedestrians



## sinbadsailor (3 Aug 2007)

Oh my god, while protecting padestrians and cyclist is a valid reason for reducing speed limits, this is just rediculous.

Do they ever drive a car at a speed they are proposing....madness!


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## Vanilla (3 Aug 2007)

sinbadsailor said:


> Oh my god, while protecting padestrians and cyclist is a valid reason for reducing speed limits, this is just rediculous.
> 
> Do they ever drive a car at a speed they are proposing....madness!


 
I agree, 30KPH is still _far _too high.


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## foxylady (3 Aug 2007)

You would be hard pushed getting up to 30kmh in the city centre anyway so it shouldnt be a big deal.


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## Purple (3 Aug 2007)

foxylady said:


> You would be hard pushed getting up to 30kmh in the city centre anyway so it shouldnt be a big deal.


I can cycle at over 30kmph. Will I get done for speeding if I do so if this rule comes in?


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## shnaek (3 Aug 2007)

30kmph is very, very slow. I would assume if they bring this law in that they will restrict it to a very small area.

Or perhaps they are trying to encourage people on to the bus by making driving as uncomfortable and awkward as possible.


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## Markjbloggs (3 Aug 2007)

Who exactly has proposed this legislation?


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## Purple (3 Aug 2007)

Markjbloggs said:


> Who exactly has proposed this legislation?



A group of white haired old grannies who drive Nissan Starlets.


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## sinbadsailor (3 Aug 2007)

You would have to wonder wouldn't you!
I noticed a speed limit sign of 10kph at the toll bridge this morning. I actually tried to get the car moving without breaking the limit and I nearly stalled.

6mph in a motorised anything is a joke.

I am convinced that the people who set the limits sometimes forget that 1kph is nearly half of 1mph....:-|


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## Gabriel (3 Aug 2007)

Better still..ban cycling. That way we won't have to worry about hitting them!


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## sinbadsailor (3 Aug 2007)

And if pedestrians actually stayed on the foothpaths until it was safe to cross on a green man?.....you see where it goes...let people take responsibility for their actions.


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## ClubMan (3 Aug 2007)

sinbadsailor said:


> I noticed a speed limit sign of 10kph at the toll bridge this morning. I actually tried to get the car moving without breaking the limit and I nearly stalled.


Do you have a date for your driving test yet?


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## sinbadsailor (3 Aug 2007)

No I am waiting for a positive posting response from you before I book it. Your making me wait a long time.

I was just illustrating a point about ridiculous speed limits, thats all.


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## ClubMan (3 Aug 2007)

sinbadsailor said:


> No I am waiting for a positive posting response from you before I book it.


+


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## ClubMan (3 Aug 2007)

According to this...


> A 30km/h limit currently applies to O'Connell St, parts of Talbot Street and Temple Bar but the majority of roads in Dublin city are 50km/h zones.


and the sky has not yet fallen in...


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## Ancutza (3 Aug 2007)

Sorry Clubman, but that's spoken like a 'dyed-in-the-wool' pedestrian who never has to drive around the city centre and is happy ambling down the street from their city-centre apartment to their city-centre office.

Whilst they're at it why don't they just impose a Park'n'ride in Donnybrook, Chapelizod, Drumcondra etc and give all the asses, (if you know what I mean), who usually pull jaunting carts up the Gap of Dunloe a more steady stream of income.

30kmph as a speed limit in any urban area in any mechanised, motorised, modern society is just madness! 50kmph is fair enough.


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## ClubMan (3 Aug 2007)

I don't live in an apartment.


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## Ron Burgundy (3 Aug 2007)

Purple said:


> A group of white haired old grannies who drive Nissan Starlets.



Nissan starlet, is this a new model


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## Purple (4 Aug 2007)

Ron Burgundy said:


> Nissan starlet, is this a new model



Oops! My mistake. Micra, Starlet, what's the difference?


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## Gordanus (4 Aug 2007)

Purple said:


> I can cycle at over 30kmph.


Good for you, Purple.  I think my max is 25kph going downhill with the wind at my back.  This is probably why I avoid cycling anywhere along the quays especially because the vanishing cycle lane puts me at extreme danger from lorries passing by.  Many do not seem to realise that their wing mirrors are just at the level of my head as they roar past to gain an extra few metres.  I'd support more cycling lanes, a 3-metre passing distance, and the lower speed limit.  After all, cyclists do not endanger car drivers in the same way as car and lorry drivers endanger them.  We also do not puff out poisonous gases (not in the same quantity anyway )


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## pat127 (4 Aug 2007)

foxylady said:


> You would be hard pushed getting up to 30kmh in the city centre anyway so it shouldnt be a big deal.



I was thinking along the same lines. If the average speed in the city centre is 12kph, then what's all the fuss about? With the number of traffic lights, pedestrian crossings etc where exactly in the areas where the new limit is proposed can you drive at any worthwhile speed for any worthwhile distance?


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## diarmuidc (6 Aug 2007)

pat127 said:


> I was thinking along the same lines. If the average speed in the city centre is 12kph, then what's all the fuss about?


The *average *is 12kph. That includes the time you spend sitting at 0kph and driving at 50kph. If you knock 20kph of the max in the city you will bring the average down into single digits.

And yes it's a dumb idea


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## dave28 (6 Aug 2007)

sinbadsailor said:


> And if pedestrians actually stayed on the foothpaths until it was safe to cross on a green man?.....you see where it goes...let people take responsibility for their actions.



What about young children in housing estates etc. - I know, we should teach them not to, but there is always a risk that they will run out on the road  after a ball etc etc. So I believe that 50 kph is too fast in residential areas, close to schools etc


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## terrysgirl33 (6 Aug 2007)

Looking at the speedometer in my car, 30kph is 20mph.  While it's low, it is used in some areas, and it isn't as mad as the 5kph limit that they tried to introduce (I think) on the road out to Bull Island.


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## sinbadsailor (7 Aug 2007)

dave28 said:


> What about young children in housing estates etc. - I know, we should teach them not to, but there is always a risk that they will run out on the road  after a ball etc etc. So I believe that 50 kph is too fast in residential areas, close to schools etc



If residential areas and schools were where we have been talking about I would agree with you 110%. But then again in some housing estates it's the kids breaking the speed limits on their quads, scramblers and hinda civic's

They are other issues though, we should not be changing speed limits to protect adults who try and skip through a line of moving traffic rather than do as they teach their children and wait for the green man?


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## pat127 (7 Aug 2007)

diarmuidc said:


> The *average *is 12kph. That includes the time you spend sitting at 0kph and driving at 50kph. If you knock 20kph of the max in the city you will bring the average down into single digits.
> 
> And yes it's a dumb idea



Look at another way. What's the point of travelling fast between blockages, wasting fuel and creating unnecessary pollution when all you do is lose the gain on arrival? Would it not make more sense to try to match the arrival of traffic at the blockage with the flow of traffic away from it ?


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## jmayo (7 Aug 2007)

Doesn't this sound like the thin edge of the wedge?
30kph today, pushing your car tomorrow, no car allowed the day after.
Eventually the aim is to ban cars and trucks from the city centre, but of course the Irish version of congestion charging will come in without the necessary improvement in public transport infrastructure.  Like everything done in this state it will be halfassed and make us a joke.

With regards to cyclists, can any of them answer how come they want truckers and motorists to be forced to jump through hoops while most of them do not bother with the rules of the road or at least the ones that pertain to  junctions and traffic lights ?
Maybe if cyclists actually used cycle lanes and stopped at junctions when they do not have the green light, they might help protect a few pedestrians from injury.


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## Gordanus (7 Aug 2007)

jmayo said:


> Maybe if cyclists actually used cycle lanes and stopped at junctions when they do not have the green light, they might help protect a few pedestrians from injury.



The injuries produced by a cycle/perestrian incident are generally minor.  Car/cyclist or car/pedestrian impacts produce much more severe injuries in the person without a steel box around them.  The car driver is usually uninjured in these incidents.


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## sinbadsailor (13 Aug 2007)

Having been in the most unfortunate situation of knocking someone over with a bicycle a few years back I can confirm that not all accidents involving pedestrians and cyclists result in 'only minor' injuries!


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## ludermor (14 Aug 2007)

jmayo said:


> Doesn't this sound like the thin edge of the wedge?
> 30kph today, pushing your car tomorrow, no car allowed the day after.
> Eventually the aim is to ban cars and trucks from the city centre, but of course the Irish version of congestion charging will come in without the necessary improvement in public transport infrastructure. Like everything done in this state it will be halfassed and make us a joke.
> 
> ...


 spoken like a person who has never used a cycle lane (or a bicycle) a lot of the cycle lanes in the city arer a shambles with very poor surfaces. At least when the weather is is good you can see the potholes etc but when it is raining it is very dangerous as you cant see them. And as for junctions! the amount of lanes that just stop and start for no particular is very frustrating.


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## sinbadsailor (15 Aug 2007)

ludermor said:


> spoken like a person who has never used a cycle lane (or a bicycle) a lot of the cycle lanes in the city arer a shambles with very poor surfaces. At least when the weather is is good you can see the potholes etc but when it is raining it is very dangerous as you cant see them. And as for junctions! the amount of lanes that just stop and start for no particular is very frustrating.



Of course the condition of the road surface in the bus lane has nothing to do with the proposed speed limit decrease. The road surface in the city as a whole is third world, but thats another topic.

People comment on what they see, and as far as I can see from my time in the city, cyclists do not take due care and diligence while cycling in the city centre. Everyone has to use the same road, the speed limit is OK.

I would think that it's the likes of iPods in the ears of cyclists preventing them from hearing whats going on around them, and not giving hand signals etc while turning, changing lane etc that casuses them to be involved in accidents.

This sort of leisurely bicycling should be kept to the phoenix park on a sunday morning. Any other time, your full concentration is required as is the case for drivers and pedestrians alike...


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## jmayo (15 Aug 2007)

ludermor said:


> spoken like a person who has never used a cycle lane (or a bicycle) a lot of the cycle lanes in the city arer a shambles with very poor surfaces. At least when the weather is is good you can see the potholes etc but when it is raining it is very dangerous as you cant see them. And as for junctions! the amount of lanes that just stop and start for no particular is very frustrating.


 
so are the potholes the reason cyclists go through red lights then ?
Or maybe it is the fact that they need to get the next bit of coloured cycle lane on the other side of the junction ?


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## RainyDay (15 Aug 2007)

I presume that all those drivers who are pontificating about cyclists breaking red lights don't break speed limits on a regular basis while driving around the city?


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## sinbadsailor (16 Aug 2007)

RainyDay said:


> I presume that all those drivers who are pontificating about cyclists breaking red lights don't break speed limits on a regular basis while driving around the city?



Two wrongs dont make a right! Cyclist in the city can be extremely careless, we know it's a fact.

And unless they will be pushing their cars, they wont be able to help breaking the limit if this idiotic change comes in!


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## ludermor (16 Aug 2007)

i dont know it as a fact, just because you say so doesnt make it a fact.


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## sinbadsailor (16 Aug 2007)

I'll rephrase so...I spend a lot of time driving in the city during peak times and I don't know how many times I have seen cyclists zipping in and out of traffic, cycling out in the middle of the lane on the quays with an iPod in their ears. I mean some of these couriers dont even have 2 functional brakes on the bikes.

So..in my opinion from what I have seen, a lot of cyclists behave in a manner that only increases the risk of them being involved in an accident with a motorist, with their actions bring the main cause.


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## ludermor (16 Aug 2007)

Thats ok then. Its a fact...in your opinion  

For what its worth you are right in some of what you say but you are generallising a fair bit. I dont think it is fair to compare couriers to 'normal' cyclists


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## RainyDay (16 Aug 2007)

sinbadsailor said:


> Two wrongs dont make a right! Cyclist in the city can be extremely careless, we know it's a fact.





sinbadsailor said:


> I'll rephrase so...I spend a lot of time driving in the city during peak times and I don't know how many times I have seen cyclists zipping in and out of traffic, cycling out in the middle of the lane on the quays with an iPod in their ears. I mean some of these couriers dont even have 2 functional brakes on the bikes.
> 
> So..in my opinion from what I have seen, a lot of cyclists behave in a manner that only increases the risk of them being involved in an accident with a motorist, with their actions bring the main cause.


Yes, of course we all see cyclists driving dangerously. Just as we all see drivers driving dangerously (breaking speed limits, lane hopping, phoning/texting while driving, poor lane positioning, poor observation etc etc). 

And don't get me started on those jay-walking iPodded pedestrians...


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## aircobra19 (16 Aug 2007)

ludermor said:


> Thats ok then. Its a fact...in your opinion
> 
> For what its worth you are right in some of what you say but you are generallising a fair bit. I dont think it is fair to compare couriers to 'normal' cyclists



True. Couriers are mainly on the pavements so you rarely have to worry about them. There isn't a high standard or driving or cycling in the city. 

The big problem is lack of enforcement of the existing rules. We don't need more rules to ignore.


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## sinbadsailor (17 Aug 2007)

aircobra19 said:


> True. Couriers are mainly on the pavements so you rarely have to worry about them. There isn't a high standard or driving or cycling in the city.
> 
> The big problem is lack of enforcement of the existing rules. We don't need more rules to ignore.



I agree, reducing the speed limit will not help the situation, as everyone will know that there will be no enforcement of the limits.

This is true for the bulk of our new legislation. A well-manned, informed, common-sense approach by our Gardai would take care of a lot of the issues we are talking about. A Garda on the beat could have a positive influence on unsociable behaviour, petty crime on a daily basis,  possibly dangerous driving/cycling, jailwalking etc. The gardai have a lot of powers already, they dont need more, we just need more of them


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## RainyDay (18 Aug 2007)

sinbadsailor said:


> I mean some of these couriers dont even have 2 functional brakes on the bikes.


I think you need to do a bit of research on fixies.


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## sinbadsailor (20 Aug 2007)

RainyDay said:


> I think you need to do a bit of research on fixies.



An emergency stop on one of those from the speeds these guys do, not all that safe. Braking with the wheels still rotating gives you a lot more control than one wheel locked up I'm afraid. But being couriers, I suppose their all professional bike riders, and have twice the skill of any 'normal' cyclist...


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## RainyDay (20 Aug 2007)

sinbadsailor said:


> An emergency stop on one of those from the speeds these guys do, not all that safe. Braking with the wheels still rotating gives you a lot more control than one wheel locked up I'm afraid. But being couriers, I suppose their all professional bike riders, and have twice the skill of any 'normal' cyclist...



Oh give us a break, you're clutching at straws with this nitpicking now. Is your critique of the braking system based on personal experience, or are you an armchair expert on this? Maybe you should try surviving on a bike in Dublin for an hour or so and see how your opinion changes.


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## Purple (20 Aug 2007)

RainyDay said:


> Oh give us a break, you're clutching at straws with this nitpicking now. Is your critique of the braking system based on personal experience, or are you an armchair expert on this? Maybe you should try surviving on a bike in Dublin for an hour or so and see how your opinion changes.



I cycled around Dublin for 12 years and in my opinion cyclists are much more inclined to break the rules than motorists. In my 12 years cycling I was knocked down once by a car turning left with no signal and had my skull fractured by a guy who thought it would be a good idea to open his car door without looking. Those and many other smaller accidents not withstanding I am still of the opinion that most collisions involving a car and a cyclist are the fault of the cyclist.
That said it is more important for a motorist to obey the rules as the potential to cause injury or death is much grater.

I also agree that enforcement of existing laws is more important than making new ones that will not be enforced either.


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## RainyDay (20 Aug 2007)

Purple said:


> in my opinion cyclists are much more inclined to break the rules than motorists.


So just to confirm, you don't believe that most motorists break the 50 kmph speed limit most of the time in the city?


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## sinbadsailor (21 Aug 2007)

RainyDay said:


> Oh give us a break, you're clutching at straws with this nitpicking now. Is your critique of the braking system based on personal experience, or are you an armchair expert on this? Maybe you should try surviving on a bike in Dublin for an hour or so and see how your opinion changes.



It is a simple fact that a rotating wheel under braking has more control and stopping power than one that is locked. ABS in a car works on the same principle.

It's also not nitpicking when getting into small details, all of which have a bearing on the overall discussion.


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## RainyDay (21 Aug 2007)

sinbadsailor said:


> It is a simple fact that a rotating wheel under braking has more control and stopping power than one that is locked. ABS in a car works on the same principle.


Armchair expert it is then....


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## sinbadsailor (22 Aug 2007)

RainyDay said:


> Armchair expert it is then....



I wouldn't call over 10 years driving and as many years mountain-biking (recreational and competition) as armchair expertise. You just seem unwilling to take criticism on your point? And brakes are hardly what this thread is about now is it.


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## RainyDay (9 Sep 2007)

If brakes are hardly what this thread is about, I suppose I'm left wondering why you've spent so many posts trying to recover from exposing your lack of knowledge of how brakes work on fixies. 

My main point of course has little to do with brakes. My main point is that pointed broad criticism of cyclists lack of attention to the rules of the road misses the point. The cyclists you criticise for weaving may well have been avoiding other road users, such as double-parked delivery vans or jay-walking pedestrians.


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## aircobra19 (9 Sep 2007)

I think the point is, regardless of the speed limit the standard or driving AND cycling is abysmal. Certainly if you slow the traffic down to a crawl then accidents are reduced as people as longer to react and force of impact is lower. But the impact on vehicular traffic (the vast majoiry of users) will be massive. 

I reckon you'd you have a similar effect by not changing the speed limit but enforcing the ones already in place, and the current rules of the road, (cyclists and motorists) and designing the road layout with a bit of common sense, and safety in mind.


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