# GRA Presidents Speech



## The_Banker (28 Apr 2010)

Has the syntax of this speech been leaked to any newspapers in full? While I accept Gardai have to give 100% loyality to the state I think the general gist of the speech would have everyone nodding in agreement.


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## Deiseblue (28 Apr 2010)

Absolutely ,refreshingly honest and forthright


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## VOR (28 Apr 2010)

> “There is always the likelihood - and it has been proved in other  countries where you pay police forces at a rate of pay that puts them in  a vulnerable place - that there is a risk of people being got at and  that’s a fact of life,”


I would say that the lines were drawn when PJ Stone had the audacity to utter the above. When you have a situtation where the GRA are threatening that their members will resort to corruption then you have a problem. 

The Dept of Justice should be on high alert to such language and when the speech to be given by the GRA president then questioned the democratically elected government it was, IMO, a step too far.

Take a look at some of the language and decide if you want the police force of a republic saying this about the government we elect.


> Truly, a Government of *national sabotage*





> A Government whose only agenda is to protect the economic *traitors*





> the arrogance of a Government *corrupted by years of power*


Whether you like the government or not is irrelevant in this argument. The democratically elected government should never be attacked by those sworn to defend it.


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## DerKaiser (28 Apr 2010)

VOR said:


> Whether you like the government or not is irrelevant in this argument. The democratically elected government should never be attacked by those sworn to defend it.


 
Spot on.

It galls me that delegates at teachers conferences etc cannot show some courtesy and restraint towards the government minister, if only from a standpoint of commen sense and PR i.e. acting like spolit kids is not a good PR exercise.

But it's a whole different ball game when the policie force show dissent towards the government which we, as a state, have elected.

There's a large number of subversives and naive individuals out there who think they'd be better off if we were ruled by a military junta than a democratically elected government.


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## tiger (28 Apr 2010)

VOR said:


> The democratically elected government should never be attacked by those sworn to defend it.


 
Agreed.
Copy of the speech on [broken link removed], though it does not refer to a source.



> _We are angry that we, our children and our children’s children have been sacrificed by this government to protect the people who bankrolled your party and robbed the Irish People. Men like Fingers and Seanie were held up by government as examples of entrepreneurial skill and business acumen but who were nothing more than ‘gombeen’ men.
> 
> We are angry at the arrogance of a government corrupted by years of power has lost touch with the reality of life on a modest salary; if they ever knew it at all. A government whose only agenda is to protect the economic traitors.
> 
> We are angry at being lectured by government on the need to be patriotic. A patriot is ‘a person who vigorously supports his country and its way of life.’ This government is misusing what it means to be Irish as they support a new aristocracy created in their image. This new aristocracy chooses whether to retain state pensions while still working as public representatives, using all means to spend vast resources on the few, while taking pay from the majority. This government have created a new class system; one that does not value our service and dedication._


Quite seditious I think...


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## The_Banker (28 Apr 2010)

Seditious alright....
Correct in its delivery but not correct with regard to who delivered it.


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## Staples (28 Apr 2010)

The_Banker said:


> Correct in its delivery but not correct with regard to who delivered it.


 
Agreed.  That's the real issue.


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## Purple (28 Apr 2010)

It is completely unacceptable and utterly wrong what the president of the GRA should give such an overtly political speech. It shows that he has no respect for the independence of the Gardai or the office of the Minister for Justice. He has shown contempt for the government of the state (not just for the party in power or the individuals in office). The GRA has shown itself to be a political body lead by aggressive blusterers who are willing to drag the police force of this country into the gutter in order to make their political points. Shame on them.


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## z107 (28 Apr 2010)

> Whether you like the government or not is irrelevant in this argument. The democratically elected government should never be attacked by those sworn to defend it.


In this instance, the GRA president is defending the people, not the government. As far as I'm concerned, the 'democratically elected' (lol) government has already betrayed the people of Ireland.

Like it or not, the GRA president is correct in his speech.


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## Purple (28 Apr 2010)

umop3p!sdn said:


> In this instance, the GRA president is defending the people, not the government. As far as I'm concerned, the 'democratically elected' (lol) government has already betrayed the people of Ireland.



No, the GRA is not defending the people, it is attacking the government (which is democratically elected by the people) and in doing so it has politicised itself and the police force.



> Whether you like the government or not is irrelevant in this argument. The democratically elected government should never be attacked by those sworn to defend it.


That sums it up very well.


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## Chocks away (28 Apr 2010)

Then according to Mr Stone's assessment, some Gardai are mercenaries. Or perhaps, quite a few. If the government up their salaries, they will refrain from Baksheesh. Did they not know the rules before they joined up? Are they not better paid than most police forces throughout the world?


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## DavyJones (28 Apr 2010)

I was shocked when I heard it. you usually hear things like this just before a coup.


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## z107 (28 Apr 2010)

> No, the GRA is not defending the people, it is attacking the government (which is democratically elected by the people) and in doing so it has politicised itself and the police force.


The democratic process in Ireland is a farce.

If I was brian cowan, I would be very nervous about this development. One thing the government needs is a loyal military and police force. What will happen if there is civil unrest?


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## Ancutza (28 Apr 2010)

Sadly, the Gardai seem to losing the run of themselves altogether.


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## Complainer (28 Apr 2010)

VOR said:


> Whether you like the government or not is irrelevant in this argument. The democratically elected government should never be attacked by those sworn to defend it.


The police force is not there to defend the Government. They are there to defend the State. That's an important distinction.


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## DerKaiser (28 Apr 2010)

umop3p!sdn said:


> The democratic process in Ireland is a farce.



How?  

Anyone can run for office and everyone can vote as they please


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## Yorrick (29 Apr 2010)

Is this not typical Trade Union bull****ting meant to impress their membership and justify high wages for union leaders ?

A lot of Gardai are fed up with this type of show. The loudmouths get elected usualy because of a complete lack of interest by the majority


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## csirl (29 Apr 2010)

The GRA is not the Gardai and has no connection with the State. It is a private association that some Gardai are members off. The President of the GRA is a civilian post - he is not an active member of the force.


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## Purple (29 Apr 2010)

Complainer said:


> The police force is not there to defend the Government. They are there to defend the State. That's an important distinction.


 What's the distinction again? The government of the state, elected by the people, is in no way linked to the state itself..... riiight.


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## csirl (29 Apr 2010)

Purple said:


> What's the distinction again? The government of the state, elected by the people, is in no way linked to the state itself..... riiight.


 
The distinction is quite clear. The State is not the same entity as the Government. The Government is an administrative/representative body that serves the State. 

From time to time the President/Council of State vetos Bills passed by the Dail. These are examples of the Government proposing to do things that are contrary to the interests of the State. The President/Council of State is part of the system of checks and balances that prevents them from acting contrary to the interests of the State.

Theoretically speaking (do not have current government in mind), it is possible that a Government may abuse its powers. This happens from time to time around the world - we've all seen Governments assume powers that they shouldnt have e.g. refusing to hold elections when their term is up or assuming dictatorial type powers. In such cases, theoretically speaking, a police force could be doing battle with a government to protect the interests of the State.


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## shanegl (29 Apr 2010)

csirl said:


> The GRA is not the Gardai and has no connection with the State. It is a private association that some Gardai are members off. The President of the GRA is a civilian post - he is not an active member of the force.



Well either way, he would want to be careful, causing disaffection in the Gardai is a criminal offence.


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## Complainer (29 Apr 2010)

shanegl said:


> Well either way, he would want to be careful, causing disaffection in the Gardai is a criminal offence.


Under what law?


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## shanegl (29 Apr 2010)

Garda Siochana Act


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## Purple (29 Apr 2010)

csirl said:


> The distinction is quite clear. The State is not the same entity as the Government. The Government is an administrative/representative body that serves the State.


 The government is elected by the people to run the state. 



csirl said:


> From time to time the President/Council of State vetos Bills passed by the Dail. These are examples of the Government proposing to do things that are contrary to the interests of the State. The President/Council of State is part of the system of checks and balances that prevents them from acting contrary to the interests of the State.


 The President/Council of State is there to ensure that legislation passed by the government is not breaching the constitution. That’s it. They have no duty or function to ensure that the government is not acting “contrary to the interests of the State”. 



csirl said:


> Theoretically speaking (do not have current government in mind), it is possible that a Government may abuse its powers. This happens from time to time around the world - we've all seen Governments assume powers that they shouldnt have e.g. refusing to hold elections when their term is up or assuming dictatorial type powers. In such cases, theoretically speaking, a police force could be doing battle with a government to protect the interests of the State.


 The supreme court is the guardian of the constitution. The police force should never act against the government off it’s  own bat.


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## DerKaiser (29 Apr 2010)

shanegl said:


> Garda Siochana Act


 
Nice one!

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2005/en/act/pub/0020/sec0059.html#sec59


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## Complainer (29 Apr 2010)

shanegl said:


> Garda Siochana Act





> does any act calculated to induce, any member of the Garda Síochána to withhold his or her services or to commit a breach of discipline



Hard to see how the speech would fall under this.


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## csirl (29 Apr 2010)

> The President/Council of State is there to ensure that legislation passed by the government is not breaching the constitution. That’s it. They have no duty or function to ensure that the government is not acting “contrary to the interests of the State”.


 
Anything that breaches the Constitution is officially speaking "contrary to the interests of the State".


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## Purple (29 Apr 2010)

csirl said:


> Anything that breaches the Constitution is officially speaking "contrary to the interests of the State".



You're streching it


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## cork (29 Apr 2010)

The country is borrowing 7million an hour and if these people are unhappy with their terms and conditions - can't they use their skills else ehere.

They have a shocking sense of entitlement.


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## Purple (29 Apr 2010)

cork said:


> The country is borrowing 7million an hour and if these people are unhappy with their terms and conditions - can't they use their skills else ehere.
> 
> They have a shocking sense of entitlement.



Don't you know that there are no lazy gardai, nurses, teachers, doctors, firemen (and women) or any other "front line staff", indeed, they deserve all they get and more, you couldn't pay them enough!,  whereas all clerical and/or non "front line" staff are lazy and overpaid.


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## DublinTexas (30 Apr 2010)

I don’t get what the fuzz is about.

A person uses his right of free speech to make highly critical comments and has the decency to attempt to do that in front of one of the pack he is attacking. That person than does not show up, so the remarks are not made but someone they are still leaked.

What do I care that the person is the president (or ex) the GRA? He is not an active member of the force and most certainly entitled to his opinion.
If the government does not like what he has to say they can pursue him via libel action in the courts but I guess it’s going to be hard to disproof what he said.

There is national sabotage going on in this country on all sides of the isle, be it from unions stopping bringing in extra staff to deal with passport backlogs or government using underhand interference to accomplish their goals.

The government is indeed corrupted by years of power, not that might not be criminal corruption but most certainly it’s political corruption, just look at the amount of tribunals we have where legislated powers of the government has been used for illegitimate private gain. 

As to the government is to protect economic traitors, it’s a hard word but why is out government protection foreign bond holders of banks rather than making them pay for the mess their greed contributed to? The government is constantly helping organisations that betrayed the trust of Irish customers.

And as to the government being democratic elected, well I disagree on 2 points. Number one in this country while we have a choice of candidates for local TD that make up the Dail, we really vote for who we want as Taoiseach. And we did not vote for Mr. Cowen. Number two a large chunk of our taxes are paid by “non-nationals” who have no say whatsoever what is happing to their contributions. Ignoring large parts of the country that are adding extremely to any recovery is hardly democratic.

Now if he would have told the GRA folks to withhold their services than sure, that is an offence and it should be investigated, but to make a fuzz out of someone finally saying what others are thinking like this is a joke.

Maybe we should pay members of the force a fair salary and give them tools to deal with 21st century crime.

Yes, the force should be political neutral but that does not mean that they are not allowed to have an opinion, last time I checked they are still allowed to vote!


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## Complainer (30 Apr 2010)

It is laughable that Minister Ahern has now called on the GRA to apologise, but yet we have had no apology to the people for the huge disaster brought onto the State by the current government. Sheer hypocracy...


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## redbhoy (30 Apr 2010)

complainer said:


> it is laughable that minister ahern has now called on the gra to apologise, but yet we have had no apology to the people for the huge disaster brought onto the state by the current government. Sheer hypocracy...


 
+1.


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## DerKaiser (30 Apr 2010)

Complainer said:


> It is laughable that Minister Ahern has now called on the GRA to apologise, but yet we have had no apology to the people for the huge disaster brought onto the State by the current government. Sheer hypocracy...


 
We can't excuse inappropriate behaviour simply because the government made a balls of things


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## Purple (30 Apr 2010)

derkaiser said:


> we can't excuse inappropriate behaviour simply because the government made a balls of things



+1


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## redbhoy (30 Apr 2010)

Purple said:


> +1


 
- infinity ;-)


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## z107 (30 Apr 2010)

- (infinity +1)


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## brigade (1 May 2010)

The last 3 posts added a lot!

We're talking about a speech which was never given. 
Are the guards meant to just take everything without reply?

How far should their pay be cut before they can comment?


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## Purple (2 May 2010)

brigade said:


> The last 3 posts added a lot!
> 
> We're talking about a speech which was never given.
> Are the guards meant to just take everything without reply?
> ...



That can comment but they can't attack the government.


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## DublinTexas (2 May 2010)

Purple said:


> That can comment but they can't attack the government.


 
While I usually find myself in the position to agree with purple, on this occasion I disagree. 

Why should the president of the GRA not be allowed to attack the government if that government is failing to support his members and is endangering the profession he represents? 

That would be a difference if members of the force would stand in their out-dated uniform in front of government buildings and throwing rotten tomatoes at ministers. That would be wrong (not to mention illegal) but someone trying to use his right of free speech (but than not doing it because the minister is not there) is not wrong. 

In fact the minister is a coward for pulling out when he got wind that some harsh words are going to be thrown in his direction. 

I’m not really a fan of unions in general but they are as much part of this failed experiment as the government his Royal Highness Berti the great forced upon us. 

Free speech is important and again if the government does not agree let them start legal proceeding against the person that said them. That is why we have libel laws that only recently were modified so that more people can curtail free speech. 

To ask for an apology to the country because someone said what a lot of people are thinking is a joke and shows how much in a bubble our ministers live.


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## ajapale (2 May 2010)

Unelected authority figures in blue shirts expressing populist views and attacking constitutionally elected politicians during a period of economic depression. Be afraid....very afraid.


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## Ancutza (2 May 2010)

Likewise Dublin Texas I agree with a lot of what you say even if it has a bit of Yankee spin in it! 

In this case, however, I disagree with you completely!  You simply cannot have a police force, or army indeed, which either will not uphold the democratically elected government or which expresses a political view.  What the president of the GRA is at amounts to sedition and they should be jailed for it.  Harsh but fair methinks!


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## Complainer (2 May 2010)

Ancutza said:


> In this case, however, I disagree with you completely!  You simply cannot have a police force, or army indeed, which either will not uphold the democratically elected government or which expresses a political view.  What the president of the GRA is at amounts to sedition and they should be jailed for it.  Harsh but fair methinks!



Just before you rush to lock people up and throw away the key, let's just clarify;
- there is no suggestion that the police force is not upholding the democratically elected government
- the police force has not expressed any political view

What has happened here is the leader of the representative body that represents many ordinary police officers, has expressed a political view. The only person he has to answer to is his own members.


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## Chocks away (2 May 2010)

ajapale said:


> Unelected authority figures in blue shirts expressing populist views and attacking constitutionally elected politicians during a period of economic depression. Be afraid....very afraid.


That says it all. Their remit is upholding the law. Nothing more, nothing less. The whole list of salary extras was in the DM during the week. If these weren't so blatantly one sided, it would be laughable. Shoeboot money? Do the GRA think that the rest of us taxpayers run around barefoot?


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## Leper (3 May 2010)

OK, Guys, Let's go the other way on this. Deny any kind of 'trades union' representation to the Gardaí.

Go back to the days when if a pub was raided the Garda involved would be offered a pint or a transfer by the local gombeen politician, usually in front of gaping hangers on.

Go back to the days when if some party contributor was caught speeding the garda was leaned on to drop charges.

Go back to the days when politicians could drive the wrong way through roundabouts and the wrong way through one way systems and still get away with it.

Go back to the days when some underqualified son of a party hack could get a place in Templemore keeping out the person entitled to the course.

Go back to the days when politicians could do what they liked.

Come to think of it - we are back in those days. But, I am with the GRA on the speech that wasn't. Somebody has to face up to our politicians. We cannot depend on the pensioners and civil service all the time to do our facing up.


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## Birroc (3 May 2010)

Good letter on this topic here;
[broken link removed]


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## mathepac (3 May 2010)

@birroc, nice find, good letter, given the rag it's published in. I like this line - "Mr Stone is increasingly sounding like a shop steward from [broken link removed] in the 1970s." And we all know what a success the unions, the then British government, and the work-force made of British Leyland.


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## Purple (4 May 2010)

Leper, are you suggesting that Gardai are no longer getting the free pint after hours?
Are you suggesting that they are not using their ID to get into nightclubs etc for free?
 Are you suggesting that they are not using their ID to get away with drink driving?

Try being in a car crash where you have been hit by a Garda or his/her family member and see how well you get on.
A family members daughter was knocked down and injured by a Garda’s brother and his family suffered two years of low level intimidation and obstruction attempting to bring the case to court. 

Most of our police do a great job most of the time and most of them are very professional in how they conduct themselves but there is a sizable minority that are a disgrace to their uniform and that has been the case for years it has nothing to do with levies, extra taxes or the removal of some of their myriad of allowances.


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## Leper (4 May 2010)

Purple, why are you posting your griefs on some members of the Garda Force here?

Why don't you make an official statement to the Garda Ombudsman?

And to answer your questions - I did not suggest any of what you said. Please read my post again.


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## Purple (5 May 2010)

Leper said:


> Purple, why are you posting your griefs on some members of the Garda Force here?
> 
> Why don't you make an official statement to the Garda Ombudsman?
> 
> And to answer your questions - I did not suggest any of what you said. Please read my post again.



Your last post implies that pay cuts will in some way cause a return to the "bad old days". I don't see why this would happen and while there seems to have been a big improvement in the professionalism of the police I am of the opinion that this is a result of what happened in Donegal rather than the big pay rises the Gardai enjoyed over the last few years.


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## VOR (5 May 2010)

Leper said:


> OK, Guys, Let's go the other way on this.



There is a third way. Let's not have the days of the gombeen politicians leaning on the local Garda. But let's not have the fast approaching days of the Garda leaning on the politicans elected to run this country.

How about an independent force, independent of political interference, where neither the Gardai nor the politicians applies political pressure.


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## Purple (5 May 2010)

VOR said:


> There is a third way. Let's not have the days of the gombeen politicians leaning on the local Garda. But let's not have the fast approaching days of the Garda leaning on the politicans elected to run this country.
> 
> How about an independent force, independent of political interference, where neither the Gardai nor the politicians applies political pressure.



Very well put.


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## Complainer (5 May 2010)

VOR said:


> There is a third way. Let's not have the days of the gombeen politicians leaning on the local Garda. But let's not have the fast approaching days of the Garda leaning on the politicans elected to run this country.
> 
> How about an independent force, independent of political interference, where neither the Gardai nor the politicians applies political pressure.


Members of the Gardai still vote. Their professional association is entitled to have opinions and express opinions just like any other professional body. Maybe if we heard more views like this over recent years, we wouldn't be in the almighty mess that we are in now.


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## Purple (5 May 2010)

Complainer said:


> Members of the Gardai still vote. Their professional association is entitled to have opinions and express opinions just like any other professional body. Maybe if we heard more views like this over recent years, we wouldn't be in the almighty mess that we are in now.



Strangely enough the GRA weren't worrying about the economy while they were getting big pay increases... just like most of us.


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## mathepac (5 May 2010)

Complainer said:


> ... Their professional association is entitled to have opinions and express opinions just like any other professional body...


Gardai, like teachers and prison officers for example, are not members of a profession. Their employment does not meet the generally accepted criteria for classification as a profession (see previous AAM threads). In order to avoid any confusion, their "professional body" is simply a trade union not a professional registration body like the ones that accountants, solicitors, doctors, nurses etc must belong to in order to legally represent themselves as solicitors, doctors, etc., practice their professions and discharge the duties of their offices. These latter professionals may often be members of a trade union / representative body as well as a professional body.


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## Chocks away (5 May 2010)

Purple and mathepac +1


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## Complainer (5 May 2010)

mathepac said:


> Gardai, like teachers and prison officers for example, are not members of a profession. Their employment does not meet the generally accepted criteria for classification as a profession (see previous AAM threads). In order to avoid any confusion, their "professional body" is simply a trade union not a professional registration body like the ones that accountants, solicitors, doctors, nurses etc must belong to in order to legally represent themselves as solicitors, doctors, etc., practice their professions and discharge the duties of their offices. These latter professionals may often be members of a trade union / representative body as well as a professional body.


Right - we wouldn't want the plebs getting above their station in life. All this 'having opinions' stuff - the end of the world as we know it....


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## Purple (5 May 2010)

Complainer said:


> Right - we wouldn't want the plebs getting above their station in life. All this 'having opinions' stuff - the end of the world as we know it....


 eh? 


Mathepac's post backs up what you are saying; the GRA can say what they like since they are just a trade union, not a statutory professional body. 
Just because someone doesn’t hold the exact same political views as you it doesn’t mean that you have to blindly disagree with everything they say.


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## mathepac (5 May 2010)

Purple said:


> ...  the GRA can say what they like since they are just a trade union, not a statutory professional body...


Thanks, that's the sentence I missed typing at the end. The IMO (a union) negotiates contracts,  pay and T&C's for doctors, whereas the Medical Council, a statutory body under the Medical Practitioners Act, is responsible for registration, standards, training, disciplinary procedures etc. As far as I am concerned, within the limits of propriety, the IMO (like the GRA) can speechify and lobby all they like on behalf of their members; similar behaviour from the Medical Council would give me cause for concern.


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## Purple (5 May 2010)

mathepac said:


> Thanks, that's the sentence I missed typing at the end. The IMO (a union) negotiates contracts,  pay and T&C's for doctors, whereas the Medical Council, a statutory body under the Medical Practitioners Act, is responsible for registration, standards, training, disciplinary procedures etc. As far as I am concerned, within the limits of propriety, the IMO (like the GRA) can speechify and lobby all they like on behalf of their members; similar behaviour from the Medical Council would give me cause for concern.



I don't fully agree with you. I accept completely that you are factually correct but since their members are serving Gardai it is a de-facto politicisation of the police force.


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## Sunny (5 May 2010)

I would be holding up the professional bodies as some shining light compared to the GRA. The Law Society, Medical Council, Accountancy Bodies have shown themselves to be anything but professional over the years. They have all lobbied to protect their own interests. And I say that as a member.


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## Purple (5 May 2010)

Sunny said:


> I would be holding up the professional bodies as some shining light compared to the GRA. The Law Society, Medical Council, Accountancy Bodies have shown themselves to be anything but professional over the years. They have all lobbied to protect their own interests. And I say that as a member.



 I agree they are not perfect but at least in the case of the Medical Council they do not have a regulatory and representative function. The Law Society does have both of these obviously conflicting roles and so can't be taken seriously. I can't comment on other bodies as I know nothing about them.


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## mathepac (5 May 2010)

mathepac said:


> ...  within the limits of propriety, ...


I suppose that was my out (I couldn't say cop-out ).

Sorry, I haven't thrown my hat into the ring in the discussion yet. I believe the content of the GRA President's document as published and quoted crossed my propriety line. However, can we really legislate politics out of a State job and pretend that the boys and girls aren't privately  muttering discontendedly about their reduced circumstaces? Personally I'd prefer if there was some mechanism that allowed them to healthily express their disappointment / frustration about disimproved pay, increasing deductions and worsening conditions rather than attempting to force it underground (my perception).


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## Complainer (5 May 2010)

mathepac said:


> Personally I'd prefer if there was some mechanism that allowed them to healthily express their disappointment / frustration about disimproved pay, increasing deductions and worsening conditions rather than attempting to force it underground (my perception).


Fully agree - That's what we have today. That mechanism is the GRA.


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## Purple (5 May 2010)

I take it that Complainer had no problem with PJ Stone’s attack on Nora Owen when he was top dog in the GRA and she was Minister for Justice. 
He blamed her for robberies of cash in transit saying "Her competence and her ability  must be seriously questioned now".


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## Ethan 1 (5 Feb 2011)

Did anything ever come of this or did it all just get lost over the extra long summer holidays last year.


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