# When did AIB stop giving out Tracker Mortgages?



## Dinarius (20 Feb 2013)

Needless to say, I have a variable mortgage. 

I can afford it (just about) but I am deeply unhappy with having to subsidise just about everyone who doesn't have one, and everyone who can't afford the one they have, variable or tracker.

I've just heard that AIB are about to raise the variable rate to 5%, adding €1000 p.a. to anyone with a €200k mortgage.

We were refused a tracker. If it transpired that they were still giving out tracker mortgages after we began our variable, I would be very interested in looking at the legality of this.

Thanks.

D.

Ps. I should add that we were refused a tracker in 2005.


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## Bronte (20 Feb 2013)

Dinarius said:


> We were refused a tracker. If it transpired that they were still giving out tracker mortgages after we began our variable, I would be very interested in looking at the legality of this.


 
There's nothing illegal about it.  Banks are commercial entities and don't have to offer every product to every customer.


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## wbbs (20 Feb 2013)

I don't know when AIB stopped but I worked for a bank back in those days and while trackers were available they were not available on every mortgage product.   This is an example, not saying it was right but that's the way it was, if a customer only qualified for the mortgage based on the 5 yr fixed rate then they may not have been able to avail of any of the mortgage products that carried a tracker rate and if they wanted the mortgage would have had to go with the fixed. 

So I suppose to a customer that would be considered being refused a tracker but it may have had nothing to do with the tracker itself but may have been another underwriting issue.


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## Dinarius (20 Feb 2013)

Thanks for the replies.

We were, and still are, cast iron in terms of security. So, there would have been no issues in that respect.

Perhaps we didn't try hard enough at the time.

We weren't told that we weren't eligible for a tracker. We were told that they were no longer offering them, which is not the same thing.

D.


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## bugler (20 Feb 2013)

Where did you hear about the AIB SVR going to 5%? That is quite a jump, and may worry some people.


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## wbbs (20 Feb 2013)

Were the ones they were giving out after yours though based on loan offers that were approved prior to your loan offer.  Sometimes it can take many months for draw downs to go through, they may have honoured existing loan offers.   Just see you added it was in 2005, that's a bit early for them to be finished alright, would have said at a guess that most banks had them until 2008.   

Presume this was on your family home, not investment property or any other variation that they would not have been offering trackers on?


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## LDFerguson (20 Feb 2013)

10th October 2008.



> AIB today announces that it will no longer offer Tracker Mortgages for new mortgage applicants, effective from close of business today, Friday 10th October 2008.
> 
> For some time now the Tracker Mortgage product has been under review because of the continuing high cost of funds in the market. Tracker Mortgages are priced off the ECB rate, but funded at money market rates, which, given current market conditions, is unsustainable going forward.
> 
> Existing customers with Tracker Mortgages are not affected. Customers who currently have an offer of a Tracker Mortgage, but which is not yet drawn, will still be able to avail of the Tracker Mortgage within the terms of their loan agreement.


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## Dinarius (20 Feb 2013)

Presume this was on your family home, not investment property or any other variation that they would not have been offering trackers on?[/QUOTE]

Yes, family home.

Bugler, heard it on "It says in the papers" on Morning Ireland.

D.


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## bugler (20 Feb 2013)

Presumably this is the story:

http://www.independent.ie/business/...-rise-could-affect-up-to-300000-29082118.html

It's worth noting that the person putting the figure of 5% out there is a mortgage broker. AIB have only warned of a 'rise' (you would think 0.25% to start).


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## Dinarius (20 Feb 2013)

AIB today announces that it will no longer offer  Tracker Mortgages for new mortgage applicants, effective from close of  business today, Friday 10th October 2008. 

For some time now the Tracker Mortgage product has  been under review because of the continuing high cost of funds in the  market. Tracker Mortgages are priced off the ECB rate, but funded at  money market rates, which, given current market conditions, is  unsustainable going forward. 

Existing customers with Tracker Mortgages are not  affected. Customers who currently have an offer of a Tracker Mortgage,  but which is not yet drawn, will still be able to avail of the Tracker  Mortgage within the terms of their loan agreement.



Interesting.

Three years after we were refused.

I may yet be looking for someone to take a 'no win, no fee' test case.

Thanks.

D.


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## ryaner (20 Feb 2013)

RTE are also reporting the proposed rise, and you can be sure that other banks will follow suit. Not like there is a competitive market or anything.


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## serotoninsid (20 Feb 2013)

Dinarius said:


> Three years after we were refused.


What were the other banks offering you at the time?


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## Dinarius (20 Feb 2013)

I don't recall going to another bank, but I'd have to check that.

We had been doing business with AIB for some years, so I wanted to stick with them.

D.


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## dereko1969 (20 Feb 2013)

So you didn't bother checking with any other bank? 

No one forced you to continue banking with AIB, do you have something on paper that states you asked for and were refused a tracker?

You're on a hiding to nothing with this, just move on and not think over what you should have done in the past, no help to you now.


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## LDFerguson (20 Feb 2013)

It's an interesting situation.  

On the one hand, AIB would presumably make the point that they made an offer to lend Dinarius money and the terms of the offer were laid out in the loan offer.  AIB were under no obligation to offer Dinarius a tracker mortgage.  If Dinarius didn't like the loan offer, the options were there to (a) not take it up and/or (b) go to a different bank.  

On the other hand, I don't recall tracker rates ever being selectively offered.  You qualified for the requested amount or you didn't.  If you did, you could choose any interest rate option you wanted, from the suite of rates available at the time.  (There were occasional twists back in the day where you could qualify for slightly more if you agreed to go on a long fixed rate, but that's not relevant here.)  So it is, perhaps, a fair question to ask AIB why they didn't offer Dinarius a tracker rate at a time when they were offering trackers to other customers.  

I've no idea of the legal position, mind you.


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## Northie (20 Feb 2013)

I know that at the time we took out our AIB mortgage (in 2004) we only qualified for the tracker as our LTV was lower then a certain amount.

I vaguely remember there being a more attractive tracker for LTV <50% and a slightly higher one for LTV <80% but don't remember a tracker being offered if you were taking a full mortgage (ie minimum deposit)

So all though AIB may still have offered trackers up to 2008, there were conditions to them being offered


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## LDFerguson (20 Feb 2013)

Northie said:


> I know that at the time we took out our AIB mortgage (in 2004) we only qualified for the tracker as our LTV was lower then a certain amount.
> 
> I vaguely remember there being a more attractive tracker for LTV <50% and a slightly higher one for LTV <80% but don't remember a tracker being offered if you were taking a full mortgage (ie minimum deposit)
> 
> So all though AIB may still have offered trackers up to 2008, there were conditions to them being offered


 
I still have AIB rate sheets from 2005 and, while there were LTV and loan size conditions attaching to getting their better tracker rates, there were trackers available for all categories.


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## bugler (20 Feb 2013)

A legal mind should be able to give a quick and definitive answer to the general query:

Does a business have to offer equal access to its products to comparable customers?

I strongly suspect the answer is "no". Think of some of the other ramifications if it was "yes". 

Also, the OP would certainly want some proof of what was offered or not offered.


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## dereko1969 (20 Feb 2013)

Surely if this was allowed, then any stockbroker who didn't recommend google stock or apple stock could then be sued? After all, they did have access to the shares at the time.....


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## LDFerguson (20 Feb 2013)

dereko1969 said:


> Surely if this was allowed, then any stockbroker who didn't recommend google stock or apple stock could then be sued? After all, they did have access to the shares at the time.....


 
I don't think it's the same thing.  A stockbroker is an intermediary and has no connection with Apple or Google.  AIB were the ones actually manufacturing the product.  There were only three choices at the time - fixed rate, standard variable rate or tracker.  I do think AIB would have to answer why they refused to offer one out of three of these choices.


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## Dermot (20 Feb 2013)

I took out 2 tracker mortgages with AIB in 2008 for 2 BTL's. They were for 49% of the value of the properties then. I specifically looked for a tracker and would not have taken any other type of mortgage. I am pretty sure that I would have got a greater amount but I went for the <50% because I was getting a better interest rate deal than if I went >50% loan.  I remember at the time that when you went onto the AIB website all the mortgage options were available to you as well as a mortgage calculator. It is not the case that I do not have sympathy with the OP but I cannot see an arguable case in what has been put forward so far that AIB would have to convert the SVR to a Tracker Rate. I am certainly not an AIB fan.


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## Jim2007 (20 Feb 2013)

bugler said:


> Does a business have to offer equal access to its products to comparable customers?
> 
> I strongly suspect the answer is "no". Think of some of the other ramifications if it was "yes".



Basic contract law - it is you that make the offer, not the other way around!!!  They (the bank) decide to to accept your offer or not.

So the question becomes "Does a bank have to accept every offer" - clearly not or every homeless person would be able to take out a mortgage on a mansion!


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## Dinarius (22 Feb 2013)

This is interesting...



Needless to say, we were not offered a tracker when we came off our fixed. Though this may not apply to AIB. 

D.


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## marathonic (22 Feb 2013)

I don't see any no-win, no-fee solicitor taking on a case like this. The no-win, no-fee solicitors tend to only take on the cases where the have a >50% chance of winning. Otherwise, why bother.

The basic jist of it is that AIB have a signed contract on you agreeing to a rate. If what you are proposing were feasible, would a person who opts for any variable rate today not be able to take the same route if interest rates rise and they're no on the fixed rates currently available on the market?

I suppose you could arrange a meeting with a no-win, no-fee solicitor but, in my opinion, it'd be a wasted half hour for both of you.


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## marathonic (22 Feb 2013)

Dinarius said:


> This is interesting...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
When you come off a fixed rate, you are not entitled to ANY rate that happened to be available at the time you originally took out the offer. Instead, you are entitled to whatever rate the mortgage offer stipulates that you will revert to at the end of the period.

In the case of Ulster Bank, I'm guessing that their offers specifically mentioned trackers or mentioned that you could move onto any rate that was available on the market at the end of the fixed period, and that trackers were still available.

In the case of Ulster Bank, if they stated the second condition above, trackers were available, and their offer only mentioned fixed and variable after the fixed rate ended, then you'd have a case.

In the case of AIB, if I were to guess, I'd say that the mortgage offer stated that you will move onto the standard variable rate at the end of the fixed term.

You need to dig out your original contract and read the terms.


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