# Possible imprisonment for no-show or no-pay?



## munchy (13 Mar 2013)

I found this frightening link in the banking section-

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/locking-up-defaulters-is-only-way-to-recoup-debt-26541857.html

Where a woman who owed unsecured debt of only 5k had an "imprisonment order" against her. For those of us in serious mortgage difficulties, this is a worry. I am still unsure of the actual court procedure, and presumed that a judgement would simply be attached in my absence if I did not show up. But I wonder if that carries further risk of imprisonment orders, especially in the case of much higher amounts owed than this woman who owed a tuppence compared to many mortgages.  

Are we risking prison by ignoring the banks and not showing up to court to defend our non-payment?


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## Jim2007 (13 Mar 2013)

Well failing to turn up in court for a case you are a party to is always a stupid idea, because there can only be one outcome - you loose!

The other thing to kept in mind when reading this kind of thing is that prison is the last resort and usually come as the result of the debtor failing to comply with the orders of the court.  If for instance the court decides that you can afford to pay say 50 Euros per week towards your debts and you decide to ignore the order, the you can bet the judge will take steps to see that you do comply...


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## Palerider (13 Mar 2013)

You can be imprisoned for non payment of a debt, in the case of a Bank debt.

First the Bank must obtain a judgment against you for a specified amount in Court, if the debt is proven and granted they can then weigh up their recovery options and perhaps make an application to obtain an Instalment order againsy you through the Court, this generally means you turn up in Court to outline your assets / liabilities and ins / outs or provide a sworn affidavit of means, If the Judge feels you can make say repayments of €100 a month then he grants the order against you.

Non payment of this order will put you into arrears on the Instalment order, when the arrears meet a particular line or amount the holder in this case a Bank goes back to Court and outlines to the Judge that you have failed to comply with the Court order.

The Judge if he / she decides to can jail you for a specified time for contempt of the order, many people believe its the Bank ( in this case ) that puts you in prison but it is not, you must be in default of the Judges instalment order.


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## demoivre (14 Mar 2013)

munchy said:


> I found this frightening link in the banking section-
> 
> http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/locking-up-defaulters-is-only-way-to-recoup-debt-26541857.html
> 
> ...



No you risk losing your home for non payment of a mortgage secured on that home. Dealing with the shortfall after your home is repossessed and sold is a different matter.



Jim2007 said:


> Well failing to turn up in court for a case you are a party to is always a stupid idea



Not necessarily. If you owe the bank €100k and they seek judgement in the high court against you for that amount, what's the point in contesting the issue and thereby raising your costs, if you accept that you owe the money? A judgement only gives legal recognition to the debt so I don't see any merit in appearing at judgement stage - totally different at instalment order hearing though, if that's the route the bank takes to enforce the judgement !! If you don't show up to show your means to the judge you run the risk of an unaffordable instalment order being granted against you.


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## Jim2007 (14 Mar 2013)

demoivre said:


> If you don't show up to show your means to the judge you run the risk of an unaffordable instalment order being granted against you.



That would be a good enough reason for me!!!  You can always turn up and say you did not have the money to seek legal advice, but making no attempt to engage in the process will never been seen in a good light.


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## munchy (14 Mar 2013)

Thanks so much. I wonder if there is a thread here which clearly outlines all the legal & court procedures? Ive searched and not found too many detailed posts. 

In other threads, there has been much debate and advice on "what can the courts do if John disappears to Oz?" etc and mostly it seems that answer is 'not very much' except perhaps if the bank appoints a debt management company and they harass and pursue us. The recommendation in other threads is to avoid any acknowledgement of the debt and do not pay anything for that initial 6 year period of the judgment. But it seems that this could annoy the courts and possible imprisonment which makes this option much more serious, considering how many people are in trouble. Many Irish nationals have left Ireland, handed over the keys and not looked back, and Im sure they arent aware of this possibility of imprisonment?

Unless, I am confusing two different procedures? That initially there could be an "installment order hearing" which one should attend, but not necessarily for a judgement hearing? Is it therefore more risky when it applies to a payment scheme over the long term, rather than a lump sum debt which is not being serviced? If they cannot find the person in order to issue a summons, can they still go ahead with either the "installment order hearing" or the 'judgment hearing'? 

This is confusing and I think even a decision to "no show" or to leave Ireland and never look back, needs to be done with detailed legal advice.


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## Bronte (14 Mar 2013)

Jim2007 said:


> That would be a good enough reason for me!!! You can always turn up and say you did not have the money to seek legal advice, but making no attempt to engage in the process will never been seen in a good light.


 
I think you're slightly misunderstanding. A court date to decide if you owe the money can not be defended. You either owe the money or you do not. Trying to defend it will not stop it. If you wish you can try and delay it and many people do. Basically it's just a judgment that confirms that you owe the money. Which you do. Contesting it time and again just leads to more costs for you.  

But the court case for an installment order should never be ignored. You must and should go into court even if you do not have the money for a solicitor. There is a full thread on this by Time who did an excellent job going into the ins and outs of it.


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## Jim2007 (14 Mar 2013)

Bronte said:


> I think you're slightly misunderstanding. A court date to decide if you owe the money can not be defended. You either owe the money or you do not. Trying to defend it will not stop it. If you wish you can try and delay it and many people do. Basically it's just a judgment that confirms that you owe the money. Which you do. Contesting it time and again just leads to more costs for you.
> 
> But the court case for an installment order should never be ignored. You must and should go into court even if you do not have the money for a solicitor. There is a full thread on this by Time who did an excellent job going into the ins and outs of it.



I'm not talk about contesting it, I'm talking about turning up!  And it may well be that there errors in the claim, it would not be the first time that an administration error led to the wrong amount being reported.


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## terrontress (14 Mar 2013)

It seems quite self-defeating to me. Sending someone to prison has the immediate effect of preventing them from working while in prison and the long term effect of making someone massively less employable due to having had a custodial sentence. Whatever little chance the bank has of recovering the money is massively reduced when the person has been through the prison system.


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## Time (14 Mar 2013)

Large instalment orders can be varied and often are when they reach the committal stage.

Also it is only at the committal stage that you can get free legal aid. It seems to be a new tactic amongst debtors to ignore everything until the committal stage and then use the services of a solicitor at the states expense to sort the matter.


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## munchy (14 Mar 2013)

Time, what is the "committal stage" ? Is this after an installment hearing and the judge sees that the debtor has ignored the court agreed payments? Or is it when a judgment is being made?


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## Time (14 Mar 2013)

Committal to prison for up to 3 months is for violating an instalment order.


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## bernanke (18 Apr 2013)

This is of interest to me, I've been in this situation before(ex  construction worker) and I've worked through it. I need help with this  though as there is only so much experience I have!
My brother has  unsecured debts of about 10k, his means are negative, ie he's out of  work and has been for quite a while so he has no disposable income to  service his debts currently. He'son a work placementprogramme which finishes in 5 weeks.
Recently his friend went over to Canada  and has found a decent job. he reckons he can get him a job too. he got  a visa for Canada and is going over, I've booked him a flight(I know!)  for 6 weeks time. 
Here is the thing, he got served with a civil bill  from the bank three weeks ago, that's fine he knows he owes the money  so there is no contesting it. 

I've told him to go to mabs and get a  statement of means done by Mabs and post it registered post to the bank.  I also told him to try and even offer 5 euro a month for now and to pay  it even if they dont accept his offer. If they accept it and he keeps paying he may be able to get them to settle for a smaller % of the total if he saves the cash up whilst he is in canada and offers it to the bank down the line.

Here's where I run out of ideas for him!

If  the bank dont accept his offer and push for judgement, which they'll  get as it wont be contested and then seek an  instalment order hearing what happens as;

A) there is a possibility my brother wont be in the jurisdiction if and when the court requests his presence for the instalment order, and most likely he wont be able to afford to return for a while, until he's covered lodgings over in canada etc and worked for a period and gets himself set up.

b) his situation will have changed possibly from now, ie he may actually be working in Canada, so the initial statement of means will no longer be valid possibly.

So  will the judge issue a commital order if he is not in Ireland. It seems a bit  extreme as this is just bad timing for him. If the case comes up before  his flight he'll attend the hearing no problem but has anyone known of anyone in this  situation before.

What is the more likely outcome? What is his best course of action?

thanks in advance, great site by the way and some really informed posters it seems. Keep up the good work, you're really helping people out.


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## munchy (19 Apr 2013)

bernanke said:


> A) there is a possibility my brother wont be in the jurisdiction if and when the court requests his presence for the instalment order, and most likely he wont be able to afford to return for a while, until he's covered lodgings over in canada etc and worked for a period and gets himself set up.



I may be wrong here, and someone else is sure to give you better advice, but my understanding is that installment order hearing cannot take place unless the court has been able to summons you in person - ie if they cant find him to issue a summons in person, the court proceedings wont progress.


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## Time (19 Apr 2013)

If no one will sign for a summons and there is no one at the house they have to get permission to personally serve the document.

If someone is outside the jurisdiction they are on a hiding to nothing as instalment orders cannot be enforced outside the state.


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## munchy (19 Apr 2013)

Time - how likely is it that the judge will grant permission to serve the document in court if no-one signs for it? 
And what if a well meaning neighbour signs for it, mistakenly thinking it is a registered mail or something similair?


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## Time (20 Apr 2013)

Judges will grant orders for personal service where they believe the person is playing games by refusing to sign for post.

If someone signs they will get an order in default as it would be considered good service. But if the person is abroad they will not be subject to the terms of the order.


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## bernanke (21 Apr 2013)

Thanks for the replies, much appreciated.


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