# Can we cut off tenant's ESB?



## murphaph (2 Feb 2008)

Hi all,
There are currently sitting 'tenants' on my (deceased) father's property (they were renting a commercial lock up type unit). My father had a single ESB meter and then 2 meters he had installed himself in each of two lock ups. He used to read their individual meters and charge them accordingly. Now, one of the tenants' lease expired last september (2 year 9 month lease and they haven't been on the premises in excess of the 5 year point). There was a civil bill against them for unpaid rent etc. and that is in train (they failed to appear in court to answer the bill and now it must proceed to the net step). Meanwhile my dad wanted them out (lousy tenants is an understatement!) and had instructed his solicitors to instigate ejectment proceedings (separate to the above civil bill) which are with the barister now but could take some time to complete. 

These individuals contributed to a great deal of stress in my dad's life and he ultimately died of a heart attack. His GP even enquired about these tenants post mortem as my father had spoken to him about it!

Now, we are determined to proceeed with the ejectment proceedings against this business and they are currently trading rent and bills free under advice from the barister/solicitor who says to accept any monies may be construed as extending the lease and may cause the ejectment proceedings to fail in court. They say the law is heavily biased in favour of sitting tenants and against the landlord and you pretty much have to like it or lump it. 

So, having set the scene I now have a question which TWO solicitors can't or won't gove a straight answer on.....can we cut off their electricity supply at the meter? They have no lease as it expired last year so I would have thought anything we agreed to supply vis-a-vis electricity would only be enforcable by the tenant during the course of that now expired lease. 

I have already instructed the 'tenants' that from this point forward I shall provide them with a copy of the ESB bill and it is up to them to pay it directly to the ESB themselves and if it goes into arrears I will instruct the ESB that we no longer need supply but can I just get my electrician cut theirs off directly (not interfering with any ESB owned equipment, just cutting supply after the main meter to their unit).

My solicitors tend to evade answering this question as they feel it may negatively effect the ejectment case but won't say "it's illegal to cut it off" either. These cowboy 'tenants' are costing us €1000 p/m lost rent as it stands! Everyone says "you are right to do things legally" etc. but are you? It seems the tenants can sit there rent free for at least 12 months before a circuit court order will authorise us to get the county sherrif in to evict them. To be honest we will go right to the bitter end with these chancers, chasing up to the point of getting them entered in Stubbs Gazette, hopefully affecting their future creditworthiness.


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## GOBSTOPPER (2 Feb 2008)

I pity your situation as the law really weighs on the Tennant's side ,as you said by the time you jump through all the hoops to get them out ,they have got a free year of trading.why hasn't this been reformed ? if you don't pay rent you should be out ! end of ! can you get a judgment against them for your losses after eviction ?A friend of mine was in a similar situation with his hair salon a few years back and was facing serious financial difficulties . He hired a private eye to do an in dept check on his Tennant's.THEN HE LET THE TENNANT'S KNOW that he knew everything about their family,business associates,sons daughters,mother father ,schools, places of work etc and left them in no doubt that if he was going to be screwed he would reciprocate. He got his hairdressers back ! While i don't condone any illegal activity or threats and  I know it sounds like a storyline from the godfather but knowledge can be a powerful persuader .


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## murphaph (2 Feb 2008)

GOBSTOPPER said:


> why hasn't this been reformed ?


My solicitors reckon it's a throwback to independence when the big bad absentee landlords ruled the huddled masses with an iron fist!



GOBSTOPPER said:


> can you get a judgment against them for your losses after eviction ?


There's something called "Deasy's Act" which apparently allows us to claim double rent from the time notice to quit was served, this is included in the ejectment proceedings but getting judgements against people and getting monies are worlds apart. Sure my solicitor said yesterday "a judgement is just a piece of paper". How true. He has another client who was owed 35k and never got it. Ended up that the character disappeared and he was left with a nice legal bill for nothing. The law needs urgent reform to differentiate between hard done by tenants and chancers like this. That's why i want to know about the ESB....can i shut it off. Their business would cease immediately until they got portable power in (expensive).



GOBSTOPPER said:


> A friend of mine was in a similar situation with his hair salon a few years back and was facing serious financial difficulties . He hired a private eye to do an in dept check on his Tennant's.THEN HE LET THE TENNANT'S KNOW that he knew everything about their family,business associates,sons daughters,mother father ,schools, places of work etc and left them in no doubt that if he was going to be screwed he would reciprocate. He got his hairdressers back !.


I don't blame your pal one little bit.


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## GOBSTOPPER (2 Feb 2008)

Personally i would cut them off from within your own property .There is no agreement for you to supply electricity ,or no agreement for the ESB to supply them electricity. maybe if the original feed off your meter was not done by the ESB electricians it could be deemed unsafe and illegal.ask the ESB to review your meter and if an ESB electrician sees that there is a "Mickey mouse" feed off it they might do it for you. Cut them off ! whats the worst that can happen ? A Judge tells you in a years time that you shouldn't have done that so I'm reducing your judgment by half, no bother as you probably wont see any money anyway as you said. Can you get a lien on any property they have or buy in the future for the judgment amount ?


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## stir crazy (2 Feb 2008)

First of all AAM is no substitute for legal advice.

But If it was me , I would cancel any bills which are in my own name. I also would probably engage on  courses of action to make life as uncomfortable as possible for these scumbags.  The fact your highly paid solicitor is unsure what to advise you means you should get the benefit of the doubt anyway. You should start suing the scum for fraud, stress and aggravation caused to yourself. What they are doing is obviously wrong.  They will eventually be removed and you will owe them nothing at the end of this. Like a previous poster said I would get a private detective after them.

Do you have a key to the premises ? At the very least I would enter and remove every fixture and fitting  (your property) inside the building at a time late at night when they are not present. This is the kind of job for which it helps to have a lot of brothers or cousins. If they are not there when you do it, they cant prove you did it anyway. I would make life as uncomfortable as possible for them. Its' not breaking and entering if its your property and you have a key. I have to admit I would probably remove everything they use to keep their business going. I would even consider breaking my own windows and putting some graffiti on the walls to scare away their hairdressing clientelle if I thought that would cause them some hardship and not destroy the structure of my property. I am sure many would disagree with me but I would follow my conscience and not worry about a technicality once I am sure that legally I am in the right and would be getting these people out of my property once justice follows its course. I would appear as threatening as possible towards them and engage in psychological war against them.
Sorry if my attitude is too strong for some. But at the end of the day they owe you  a lot of money which you will probably never see even when the judgement is against them .  I cant see any judge having sympathy for such as them. How can it ever transpire that you will owe them anything ?


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## murphaph (2 Feb 2008)

GOBSTOPPER said:


> Personally i would cut them off from within your own property .There is no agreement for you to supply electricity ,or no agreement for the ESB to supply them electricity. maybe if the original feed off your meter was not done by the ESB electricians it could be deemed unsafe and illegal.ask the ESB to review your meter and if an ESB electrician sees that there is a "Mickey mouse" feed off it they might do it for you. Cut them off ! whats the worst that can happen ? A Judge tells you in a years time that you shouldn't have done that so I'm reducing your judgment by half, no bother as you probably wont see any money anyway as you said.


Sort of what I'm thinking! It's one thing to squat without a lease, it's another to expect a landlord to continue supplying juice. You see these individuals would like to continue paying rent now because their little business is doing nicely now. if they had been good tenants my father would have never instigated legal proceedings against them and now they probably regret acting the maggots. They must go regardless now as we can see if we ever want tem out (to develop etc.) that it will be a nightmare if they're even more settled in.



GOBSTOPPER said:


> Can you get a lien on any property they have or buy in the future for the judgment amount ?


It doesn't seem to matter. The sherrif is a bit of a wimp by all accounts and actually calls ahead to inform the defaulters that he's on the way. The system is a complete joke that seems engineered to defend the guilty, punish the innocent and line the pockets of the legal profession in the process.


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## BountyHunter (3 Feb 2008)

Hi OP,
Sorry to hear about your Dad. You need to do everything you can to make life as difficult for these f***ers as possible,all legal of course. You say your Dad installed another metre, hmmm maybe this metre needs to be inspected as it may be faulty in which case the health and safety people may need to be called in and the place given a thorough going over?
What kind of access does the property have? If its a set of gates maybe change all locks, if these f***ers are the only people using it then weld the gates closed.
As its your property and they dont have any lease you can for example park all kinds of trailers/tractors/machinery at the front door of the property.. What I'm trying to say is play them at thier own game.
BountyHunter.


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## Simeon (3 Feb 2008)

If 'their' meter is on your property then perhaps you could allow a loose connection scenario to occur! I assume that they also have sought advice. Best of luck anyhow.


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## murphaph (3 Feb 2008)

Thanks for the ideas. Any other random ideas that I could think about to make it more difficult/impossible to trade. They have equipment/stock which they'd need to remove if they were to find somewhere else to tade from, which would give me vacant posession. I'm seriously fed up with these 'people' and want to step it up a gear. 

They have signage erected on my wall to the front of the site. They do not nor have ever leased this wall from us. The lease allowed ONE sign, to be agreed with the landlord. They currently have 5 signs up on that wall and I'm itching to tear them down but once again, the solicitor says "don't do anything to aggravate the situation". Now I'm thinking to hell with this. It would seem cheaper and easier to boot them out and let them sue me! It seems to take forever anyway and even if I had to 'comensate' them (for squating!) it would be cheaper in the long run. 

Anyway, the ESB is the first route. They will have difficulty running on a generator as the neighbours in thie redominantly residential area will (at my encouragement) complain to SDCC about the noise. I can not be held liable for the noise etc. as I am already proceeding with ejectment on them.  

Any other ways to make it awkward?


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## murphaph (3 Feb 2008)

BountyHunter said:


> Hi OP,
> Sorry to hear about your Dad. You need to do everything you can to make life as difficult for these f***ers as possible,all legal of course. You say your Dad installed another metre, hmmm maybe this metre needs to be inspected as it may be faulty in which case the health and safety people may need to be called in and the place given a thorough going over?
> What kind of access does the property have? If its a set of gates maybe change all locks, if these f***ers are the only people using it then weld the gates closed.
> As its your property and they dont have any lease you can for example park all kinds of trailers/tractors/machinery at the front door of the property.. What I'm trying to say is play them at thier own game.
> BountyHunter.


I ike this. A 20' container right up in front of their unit sounds good.


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## murphaph (3 Feb 2008)

Anybody know where I might get a 20' container at lowest cost to 'store' things in?


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## mercman (3 Feb 2008)

You are entitled to change the locks on the premises. Also its very simple - cut off the electricity -- end of story. If they want power let them apply to the ESB, for whicb they can't as its your property. Finally, get yourself a new solicitor who will be able to advise you on property law.


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## Simeon (3 Feb 2008)

Yes Mercman ....... I'll go with that.


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## murphaph (4 Feb 2008)

mercman said:


> You are entitled to change the locks on the premises. Also its very simple - cut off the electricity -- end of story. If they want power let them apply to the ESB, for whicb they can't as its your property. Finally, get yourself a new solicitor who will be able to advise you on property law.


I'd have thought that changing the locks is denying them access to the unit and thereby an eviction? Cutting off the ESB is not evicting them, nor would placing a 20' container very close to the unit doors be, so still legal. I would imagine they will hire a generator asap to keep trading. I intend to remove the signage which is outside on my wall and paint "Closed" in big black letters on the wall. hey have put their own signs up outside on council owned greenspace beside the road. I have contacted the council about these as they are illegal and hazardous to pedestrians.

I want to make life as awkward as possible while staying inside the law. I believe I can cause enough disruption that they leave without an eviction.


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## mercman (4 Feb 2008)

You are legally allowed to change the locks. I had occasion in the past where I had a large company as a tenant and something similar to you, where they decided that they would start messing about. On the instructions of my solicitors, I called to the Garda Station, told them of my intentions and broke in with a locksmith, changed the locks. Then they paid me what they owed me within 24 Hours - and I wouldn't accept a cheque - Bank Draft only.


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## murphaph (4 Feb 2008)

mercman said:


> You are legally allowed to change the locks. I had occasion in the past where I had a large company as a tenant and something similar to you, where they decided that they would start messing about. On the instructions of my solicitors, I called to the Garda Station, told them of my intentions and broke in with a locksmith, changed the locks. Then they paid me what they owed me within 24 Hours - and I wouldn't accept a cheque - Bank Draft only.


Do you have to give them new keys when you change the locks? It sounds like your solicitor was more willing to push the envelope than ours! Tell me though, were you involved in proceedings to eject them? That's what our solicitor keeps talking about, ie, that it could affect the outcome of those proceedings. 

If these tactics fail to work I'll have to step it up a gear, regardless of legal proceedings. I'll never go the legal route with chancers like this again. First time anyone defaults on payment the locks will be changed. No payment after 7 days and their equipment will be deposited outside the yard.

The law is as good as useless in these instances IMO.


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## zag (4 Feb 2008)

murphaph - can you clear one thing up please ?  In your first post, I thought you indicated that the tenants hadn't been on the property for a few years, but from all the other posts it seems they are trading from the property.

Also, you have already given out some very specific information (location, numer of tenants, your dads death, etc . . ) in this thread.  You may want to think twice about giving out too much more detail or even editing some of your earlier posts.  You never know, the problem tenants could be reading this thread and be one step ahead of you as you lay out your plans here.

z


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## murphaph (4 Feb 2008)

zag said:


> murphaph - can you clear one thing up please ?  In your first post, I thought you indicated that the tenants hadn't been on the property for a few years, but from all the other posts it seems they are trading from the property.


i'm not sure where I gave the impression they hadn't been there for a few years but to clarify: They are currently trading from the property.



zag said:


> Also, you have already given out some very specific information (location, numer of tenants, your dads death, etc . . ) in this thread.  You may want to think twice about giving out too much more detail or even editing some of your earlier posts.  You never know, the problem tenants could be reading this thread and be one step ahead of you as you lay out your plans here.
> 
> z


I appreciate your concern but any action I take will be legal and not assist them delay the inevitable eviction order-which will come sooner rather than later. I have decided to transfer the file to a more competent, fast and terrier like solicitor who has advised us already on this matter. If they are reading this I will say one thing: I will personally ensure you end up in Stubbs Gazette and any future landlords you court will be made well aware of your problem past, so you don't get your foot in the 5 year door. Your business is a small world and you will be easy to find. No landlord should have to put up with your sort of carry on ;-). I hope you have friends willing to lend because the banks won't touch you when we get our judgements against you. Have a nice life and all that.


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## zag (4 Feb 2008)

Sorry - my mistake - I took this "Now, one of the tenants' lease expired last september (2 year 9 month lease and they haven't been on the premises in excess of the 5 year point" to mean they originally had a 2y9m lease but hadn't been around for more than 5 years.  It's a lot clearer now.

z


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## bertie1 (5 Feb 2008)

I think that if you read the terms & conditions of your Esb or your fathers ESB agreement available on www.esb.ie, you are not allowed to resell electricity which is in fact what you would be doing if they were paying the bill. By disconnecting the supply you may be stopping illegal activiity on your own behalf


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## mathepac (5 Feb 2008)

bertie1 said:


> I think that if you read the terms & conditions of your Esb or your fathers ESB agreement available on www.esb.ie, you are not allowed to resell electricity which is in fact what you would be doing if they were paying the bill. By disconnecting the supply you may be stopping illegal activiity on your own behalf


Not true. Think of the old "bed-sit" scenario where coin operated meters were used for gas / electricity on a room-by-room basis off the main house meters.


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## teachai (5 Feb 2008)

You could also try and get the bailiffs in and seize their goods in lieu of unpaid rent.


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## murphaph (5 Feb 2008)

teachai said:


> You could also try and get the bailiffs in and seize their goods in lieu of unpaid rent.


You can't just do that yourself teachai! You need a circuit court order to get the County Sherrif. The court order instructs the sherrif that he has lawful permission to break, enter and seize goods to the value of €x. That process is in train as we speak of course and will take a little more time, but not much.

Hopefully the seizure of their equipment will halt their trading. If the sherrif hesitates I shall be on standby with an angle grinder to gain access for him!

These guys would be better off leaving before the rates bills are issued as they are liable to the council for their own rates. The bills go out in a week or so. They won't get the 12 months out of their rates so they may decide to "do a bunk" in the coming couple of weeks. SDCC will go after them in court for unpaid rates.


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## Neadyk (6 Mar 2008)

Any update on this murphaph?


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## Darealdeal (12 Mar 2008)

Need a very specialist "Commercial Lease" legal eagle for this? 
An hour or two with the right legal head would probably do wonders.
Commercial leases are totally different from residential.
You have drastically less room with residential, not so with commercial.
With some leases you can take possession of goods, until monies owed are paid up.
And in some cases, may also have the right to sell those goods to recover monies owed.
This makes commercial sense????

D


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## murphaph (12 Mar 2008)

It's curently with the solicitors. The general consensus is that it is imperative to retain "good title" to one's property by ensuring any eviction is legal. Essentially Irish law says the tenant remains a tenant until a judge of the circuit court says they aren't. At that point they may be legally evicted. I've decided not to get stressed about this. We will get posession when we get it. I will then do my level best to make sure these individuals are listed in Stubbs Gazette and I will try to inform any potential landlords to avoid like the plague. One look at our files will make any potential landlord walk away from these people. I just thank God they haven't been there more than 5 years!

The belief of our solicitor is that it's best to appear in the circuit court having done absolutely nothing to prevent the tenant from operating his business and to make sure that all the "bad behaviour" is coming from their side. We are passing the ESB bill on to them and if they don't pay it we will have it disconnected at that stage. Bloodsucking leaches will get their comeuppance soon enough.


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## NiallA (12 Mar 2008)

i would make sure an esb fault develops on the property  so that the trip switches keep going and tell them if they complain that you can't afford an electrician to fix it.


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