# Bully Boss Strikes Again



## Mrs_Doyle (3 Nov 2009)

Hi there

I was put on a three day week starting in august and my employer told me this would be reviewed in October 4 weeks away.  I was called into my employers office again last week and she told me i was now being cut from 17e an hour to 13e an hour (as well as working on three days a week)  I dont have a contract of employment, ive forms here from months ago to make a complaint to NERA about this as ive asked my boss continueously for a contract of employment.

I was told by a friend that i dont have to accept this further pay cut. and being on reduced working days/hours after a certain period i should be offered redundancy.  If i go into the office now on friday morning and tell my boss im sorry but im not willing to take a further cut to my wage what am i letting myself in for? ... My boss is a bully .. a very good one at that.

When she put me on a three day week she told me i would have to be on call for the other two days incase she needed to change me about but i told her with a 2 year old son this was impossible and her reply was if i couldnt be on call she would have to find someone else.... when things like this are said all i think about is my mortgage payment.. but i cant take it anymore working here im exhausted trying to meet unreasonable targets and im fed up being a punching bag for everything that has gone wrong wiht her business.. i cant even sit and type a letter after 16 years working in an area i love and never once having a complaint she has me broken but if im as bad as she makes out why hasnt she sacked me ...

Im going in to tell her im not willing to take a further cut im just wondering whats ahead?

Thanks so much for any help u can give.

m


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## whampiri (4 Nov 2009)

After working in a place continously for 2 years and 1 day you're entitled to redundancy.Drop down to your local citizens advice centre and get some more information.Following this I'd make a formal complaint to the dept of enterprise trade and employment. If you're there 16 years then I certainly wouldn't leave this go easily. If she's not paying you for your days off to be on call, you have no reason to be on call. Turn off your phone.


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## DeZen (11 Nov 2009)

God help you. *I hate bullies*. Have you every considered that she is making things aquard for herself? Constructive dismissal springs to mind.  Does she have a boss she reports to? Have you gone above her head. Have you a trade union in your place of employement. Have you written evidence of asking for your written contract. You are entitled by law to a written contract. Sorry I don't have time to go further but you should take a case for harrisment and bullying in the workplace against her and the company for allowing it happen. Get a good soliciter who understands labour law! If proven against her..............well who knows. ( Posted by Dezen's father. I was just browsing when I read your question)


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## fla (12 Nov 2009)

I was just reading this thread and hopefully this information will help you.  You are entitled to a contract of employment.  You can make a complaint under the Terms of Information (Employment) Act about this.  This can be made to the Employment Appeals Tribunal (have a look at their website).  Yes you are entitled to redundancy after 2 years of employment but that does not necessarily mean you will get it.  Redundancy only comes into effect if your role is gone and by reading your mail, it is not yet.  You have to be advised that you are being made redundant by your employer, it is not something that you can throw out there for her to consider.  Redundancy is usually the last means that an employer will take hence the reduction in your hours and pay.

If you are willing to take this further, I'd suggest you speak to an employment lawyer but just a little bit of advice, this incurs time and money for you and more importantly you have to be willing to fight it.  Think about it because these issues do not get resolved in weeks, usually it's months or a year or two so you have to be willing to stick it out.  A good lawyer makes all the difference with the end result and choose someone who practices in employment law if you go down that road.

Good luck and all the best.


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## foxylady (12 Nov 2009)

Contact the HSA about bullying in the workplace as well.


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## regvw (12 Nov 2009)

i would not rush in to anything untill you know your rights. Your boss could be looking for you to leave so she can hire someone else for less than 13 euro


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## minion (15 Nov 2009)

Record all future conversations.
Dont even tell he you are recording them.
Just have them in case you need them in future.


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## Diziet (15 Nov 2009)

minion said:


> Record all future conversations.
> Dont even tell he you are recording them.
> Just have them in case you need them in future.



That's not practical advice.

You should, however, keep dated notes. Keep them away from the office.


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## Sconhome (16 Nov 2009)

minion said:


> Record all future conversations.
> Dont even tell he you are recording them.
> Just have them in case you need them in future.



This becomes inadmissible evidence and can be used against OP who by recording is in fact committing an offence.

Keep a detailed diary record of all incidents, almost like minutes of a meeting, make the record as soon as possible after the incident.

Even with the added pressures of recession there is no excuse for a bully.


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## Complainer (16 Nov 2009)

Sconhome said:


> This becomes inadmissible evidence and can be used against OP who by recording is in fact committing an offence.


What offence?


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## S.L.F (16 Nov 2009)

Complainer said:


> What offence?


 
You are not supposed to record someone against their will, this is why when you are talking to a big company they will tell you they are recording your call.

Unless it is in a public place.


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## Purple (16 Nov 2009)

Just because you don’t have a written contract it doesn’t mean that you don’t have rights.
You are employed on €17 per hour for a 5 day week. This can only be changed with you consent. 
Your employer cannot reduce your hourly rate or your hours without your written consent. Arguably you have agreed to a reduction in you working week to 3 days on a temporary basis but that’s it. 

You need to stand your ground. You have taken a 40% reduction in hours and are now being asked to take a 23% reduction in hourly pay. Your gross pay will be about half what you started on. I don’t see how anyone could see that as reasonable.


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## Sconhome (16 Nov 2009)

Complainer said:


> What offence?



I dont want ot go off point, as SLF says you can record someone if you tell them they are being recorded AND you have their permission. If you 'bug' a conversation and retain the recording a court will not allow it to be used unless a legal warrant has been given for it (hence the changes in the law last year, powers of surveillance etc for the Gardai Vs gangs). It is an offence, which you can be charged with, I don't know off hand the title.


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## Complainer (16 Nov 2009)

Sconhome said:


> I dont want ot go off point, as SLF says you can record someone if you tell them they are being recorded AND you have their permission. If you 'bug' a conversation and retain the recording a court will not allow it to be used unless a legal warrant has been given for it (hence the changes in the law last year, powers of surveillance etc for the Gardai Vs gangs). It is an offence, which you can be charged with, I don't know off hand the title.


To say that a recording can't be used as evidence is one thing, but you said that making the recording was in itself illegal - is this still your view, i.e. that it is illegal to make a recording without informing the other party?


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## S.L.F (16 Nov 2009)

Complainer said:


> To say that a recording can't be used as evidence is one thing, but you said that making the recording was in itself illegal - is this still your view, i.e. that it is illegal to make a recording without informing the other party?


 
It is an interesting one but as far as I know it is true you can't record someone without their permission unless you are on public property.


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## Purple (16 Nov 2009)

S.L.F said:


> It is an interesting one but as far as I know it is true you can't record someone without their permission unless you are on public property.



You can record phone conversations on your own phone.


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## vfillafan (16 Nov 2009)

A person is perfectly entitled to keep records of converstaions and events to which thaty are involved without getting pemission of the other parties. If we could not then we would not have any historical events documented.


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## S.L.F (16 Nov 2009)

vfillafan said:


> A person is perfectly entitled to keep records of converstaions and events to which thaty are involved without getting pemission of the other parties. If we could not then we would not have any historical events documented.


 
That is true but not recorded electronically.

I recall down the country a girl had pics were taken of her against her will the Garda went to the various people and made them delete stuff from their phones (don't ask for a link because I wouldn't know where to start) this would be the same.

********************************************

This has gone off topic the thread was about a bully boss.

I suggest the mods delete some of the previous posts or move them to a different forum.


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## roro123 (16 Nov 2009)

Last off topic post about recording. If you record a conversation between 2 parties and both do not know its being recorded, its an offence (covert), however if one party is aware the conversation is being recorded then it is not an offence. Therefore if you are party to a recorded conversation that you are recording, then its not an offence. 

As regards bullying, there are plenty of ways other than recording events, just a formal complaint should get the ball rolling. Although bullies tend to value exerting power rather than protecting their own reputations. Its weird but true. If you make a formal complaint chances are the bullying will increase but more subtly. But the fact that you have a complaint in already will assist you with any constructive dismissal case. Treat it as a game between you and the bully, it will help you maintain your sanity


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## Complainer (16 Nov 2009)

roro123 said:


> Last off topic post about recording. If you record a conversation between 2 parties and both do not know its being recorded, its an offence (covert), however if one party is aware the conversation is being recorded then it is not an offence. Therefore if you are party to a recorded conversation that you are recording, then its not an offence.


Do you have a source in legisltion or elsewhere for this? I honestly believe there is a lot of nonsense on this thread about the law around recording.


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## Bob Nellies (16 Nov 2009)

This is definitely constructive dismissal. you should absolutely:

1. keep record of all conversations - time, date, place, who else was in the room (witness)
2. Get as much as you can on email: if she says things like: 

_her reply was if i couldnt be on call she would have to find someone else.... _

then send her an email - RETURN RECEIPTED (so you have confirmation she opened it) asking her to confirm your interpretation of her remarks are correct...
Be very objective, impersonal and polite - both in person and on email...

you'll have no more trouble...

and ignore the rubbish on this thread about recording - you are perfectly entitled to protect yourself, and if this does get worse, you will need to produce evidence about your treatment AND evidence that demonstrates how objectively & professionally you dealt with it...

Now, chin up, follow my advice and sock her one (metaphorically speaking)!


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## Grizzly (17 Nov 2009)

Have you worked for this company for 16 years?  Why did you never ask for a contract of employment?


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## Mrs_Doyle (18 Nov 2009)

thanks so much for your replies everyone.

the update is after telling my boss that i wasnt willing to accept a further cut to my wages she told me to get out of her office. She then called a meeting for tuesday. She didnt speak to me once in teh office from that friday morning to the tuesday morning. When i attended on tuesday to the meeting i was sacked as she said my work has not been up to scratch for a while now. I was devastated to say the least so much so she told me to go out of the office and get a coffee and come back in 40 mins. I asked her to give me my letter of dismissal and i would go home to which she replied im out of the office int he afternoon and i need to hear so go have your coffee and come back and tell me what your thinking. I left the office and called my partner in tears (again) when i went back she asked what i had to say and i said i was absolutely shocked that i was being sacked as ive never had one complaint about my work ever. She asked did i not see it coming and i said no. I did get a writen warning in february 2009 as i was late three mornings in a row. She said she felt i didnt trust her and she also felt that if she brought the pay issue up again i would not be pleased i said id do anything to hold onto my job and she asked would i accept the paycut and i said yes. she said i dont want you to feel bullied into this i didnt answer that as thats what she was doing. So she got me to sign two letters one about the pay cut and one about the fact that she was going to dismiss me but gave me another chance. 

ive spoken to a solicitor and told them that from the time i got this job she has constantly told me im doing things wrong she has had 7 secretarys in 4 years and the agencies are refusing to supply her with temps. She has had a case against her as her previous secretary had a nervous breakdown. she is a bully but i thought standing up to her would make a difference but it only made her worse. I think crunch time was last tuesday when i was driving home and thinking if i got a bottle of vodka and some headache tablets it would be over in a bit then i looked in my rearview and seen my two year old son in the back of the car. so im taking a case for constructive dismissal against her and friday will be my last day here as my solicitor said i need to leave this week. I cannot stress the weight that has been lifted off my shoulders now i know next week i wont be working here even tho at present i dont have another job to go to i at least know i can start to rebuild what she has taken away from me and thats my confidence. Thanks so very much for your replies 


oh ive worked in the same field for 16 years ive been working here in this company with one partner only no more than 3 years


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## SlurrySlump (20 Nov 2009)

So she says she is dismissing you but because your work was not up to scratch but then changes her mind if you take a pay cut?  I cannot imagine someone who works in a legal practice being so stupid as to try and pull this one.
Just an observation. Nobody gets a written warning for just being late three mornings in a row. I would have thought that this was given because this was the only thing that could be measured. Normally a verbal comes before a written warning?


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## Mrs_Doyle (20 Nov 2009)

I was late for three mornings in the row the first morning i was late she told me not to be late again.  On the third she issued me with a written warning.  when i started working here there was another girl here to she left after two weeks of verbal abuse.  then another lady came along she was here 8 months and left after she found that there was no give and take with our boss it was just take take take (that lady had a son in temple street and was looking to get time off here and there to share visiting with her husband).  I was then offered the full time position as i was working here part time only and i took it as the offer was very good.  you cannot do anything right in this office you are constantly being corrected about everything even down to eating mayonaise on a sandwich for your lunch.. apparrently its a disgusting habit!  my question is if i was sooooooooo bad at my job why did she give me a full time position and why have i worked here for 3 years its a smoke screen she has a latvian lady working here on the days im off since putting me on a three day week and she pays her 50e from the petty cash box a day as opposed to what she is paying me.. the mind boggles


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## Complainer (20 Nov 2009)

Mrs_Doyle said:


> she has a latvian lady working here on the days im off since putting me on a three day week and she pays her 50e from the petty cash box a day as opposed to what she is paying me.. the mind boggles


Give Revenue and/or NERA a call - that'll soften her cough.


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## IsleOfMan (21 Nov 2009)

Mrs_Doyle said:


> I was late for three mornings in the row the first morning i was late she told me not to be late again.


 
Telling someone not to be late again the first time they come to work late seems a bit harsh and over the top. 

I have to say that I find it very difficult to read your posts. Few commas, full stops, no capital letters etc. In your job were you required to do any typing?


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## shipibo (24 Nov 2009)

Mrs Doyle,

          Have encountered similar problems in my workplace, and am glad you are taking decisive action, rather than letting this roll.


          Can you keep posters updated on outcome, would help other people who would feel "its too much hassle" to take this course of action.


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## minion (26 Nov 2009)

Mrs_Doyle said:


> thanks so much for your replies everyone.
> 
> the update is after telling my boss that i wasnt willing to accept a further cut to my wages she told me to get out of her office. She then called a meeting for tuesday. She didnt speak to me once in teh office from that friday morning to the tuesday morning. When i attended on tuesday to the meeting i was sacked as she said my work has not been up to scratch for a while now. I was devastated to say the least so much so she told me to go out of the office and get a coffee and come back in 40 mins. I asked her to give me my letter of dismissal and i would go home to which she replied im out of the office int he afternoon and i need to hear so go have your coffee and come back and tell me what your thinking. I left the office and called my partner in tears (again) when i went back she asked what i had to say and i said i was absolutely shocked that i was being sacked as ive never had one complaint about my work ever. She asked did i not see it coming and i said no. I did get a writen warning in february 2009 as i was late three mornings in a row. She said she felt i didnt trust her and she also felt that if she brought the pay issue up again i would not be pleased i said id do anything to hold onto my job and she asked would i accept the paycut and i said yes. she said i dont want you to feel bullied into this i didnt answer that as thats what she was doing. So she got me to sign two letters one about the pay cut and one about the fact that she was going to dismiss me but gave me another chance.
> 
> ...



Dont you wish you had recorded these meetings now.  You would win any case hands down.  And even though there is a lot of rubbish about not being allowed to record conversations here (too many people watching too mcuh tv) , you are allowed to record your conversations.  and you dont have to tell people you are recording the conversation.  Ask your solicitor about it if you dont believe me.

Back to the point at hand.
Sorry to hear the bullying has stepped up more.
I really hope you win this.  Im sure you will.  Its clear cut bullying.


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