# Water Charges Tenant or Landlord to pay?



## kaza (31 Jul 2014)

Hi,

I rent out a property and I am wondering about water charges and who is responsible for payment etc?? Am I right in assuming it is the tenant?

With the likes of gas and electricity, I have a landlord account set up. Which means that when a tenant moves out, it automatically reverts to billing me until another tenant take up residency. Am I wrong in assuming it will basically be the same setup with Irish Water?

Thanks


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## SCA911 (31 Jul 2014)

Hi Kaza

Had this query myself recently which I emailed IW about.  This is the response I got:

_Please note that bills will be issued on a quarterly basis. Customers will received their first bill in January 2015, which will be determined by their water consumption of the previous three months. This will be the billing process going forward. _

_Irish Water will begin a customer validation process in late 2014. As part of this process, customers will receive a letter requesting they verify their details. It is at this time that we will ask customers to confirm who will be paying the bill, the landlord or the tenant. This is an important process to ensure correct billing information is provided._

_The issuing of bills to landlords or tenants will depend on the agreement drawn up between the landlord and tenant themselves. The ownership of registration lies with either the landlord or tenant to contact Irish Water for validation. Division of water charges is also a private matter and must be decided amongst the landlord and tenants._

_Please be advised that if a tenant left a premise with an outstanding bill in their name, the tenant is liable. The debt will remain with the person and not the premise. Landlords will not be held responsible for outstanding balances in a tenant’s name due to the Data Protection Act._
​Hope this helps.
​​


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## delgirl (31 Jul 2014)

In most of the standard leases (as with the one available from [broken link removed]) it states:

3.4 To pay promptly to the authorities or to whomever they are due, local authority, and outgoings (including gas, water, electricity, cable television and telephone if any, relating to the property) including any which are imposed after the date of this Agreement (even if of a novel nature) and to pay the total cost of any re-connection fee relating to the supply of gas, water, electricity, cable television and telephone if the same is disconnected or the operating company changed.

I have already written to my tenants enclosing a copy of the lease and the relevant paragraph high-lighted just to be sure there's no confusion with the Water Charges.


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## kaza (31 Jul 2014)

Thanks! I must checking the wording in their contract and see does it state water. If not their contract is up for renewal in Nov, so I can add it in then.


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## amethyst (1 Sep 2014)

What if the only lease you have predates the whole issue of water charges?  What then?


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## Drakon (10 Sep 2014)

I too am a tad confused about this.
I've received an application form and application guide.  I gather from the latter that I ignore the application form and wait for some other correspondence that details all my investment properties.  Am I right or am I still confused?


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## Steven Barrett (11 Sep 2014)

If it's based on usage, why would the landlord pay? If someone else is paying the bill for usage, the taps would be on all the time.


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## delgirl (11 Sep 2014)

Just received a pack from Irish Water this morning at my home address for a rental property I own.

Where are they getting their information from???  It must be either Revenue or PRTB?

What happens to LL's who are not registered with the PRTB or who do not declare rental income to Revenue - are they going to escape again?

They can't give the same PPS number for 2 properties unless they maybe say the 2nd one is a holiday home.


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## Black Sheep (11 Sep 2014)

Yes delgirl I got the same pack yesterday and the information is clearly coming from LPT. Nothing to do with PRTB


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## Bronte (15 Sep 2014)

I'm a landlord abroad and have not receive any letter yet. I am registered for PRTB, NPPR, LPT etc. Is it only certain parts of the country that have received the letter?

Water is a utility, my tenants are being informed it will be up to them to pay for it. Same as gas and esb.  Up to now I've always paid the bins/rates etc as rates charges run with the property, but now the corporations are moving away from that I guess it isn't so important.


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## moonman (15 Sep 2014)

Black Sheep said:


> Yes delgirl I got the same pack yesterday and the information is clearly coming from LPT. Nothing to do with PRTB


i received my pack about 10 days ago everything normal,, but i received another pack for my son, who moved out 5 years ago  , on thursday last.    its not the lpt. i think he still has his income tax returns forms posted to his original home address. so i think it is the revenue (income tax) who are supplying the addresses.


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## Drakon (16 Sep 2014)

I don't think there is any confusion over who pays. What I'd like to know is who completes the application form?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mick39 (26 Sep 2014)

*landlord are screwed again*

*If tenant doesn't sign up to Irish Water then the bottom line is the landlord will be gone after for any outstanding bills owed to Irish Water. *

Ring Irish Water and that is there answer as of today 26/09/2014



They will not cut the water off, they will just keep running up the bill
If you don't have a meter you can add it to the rent plus the tax you will be charged on it so your rent is dearer than everyone elses
Where there is a meter how much do you charge??? The tenant could leave the tap running just to pixx you off when you ask them to leave because they haven't signed up to Irish Water.
Again the landlord has to do the goverments dirty work.


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## marathonic (26 Sep 2014)

I also received a pack for one of my rental properties. 

My question is - would the tenant themselves have also received a pack? I haven't been speaking to my tenant yet but must contact him next week.


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## DoctorEvil (29 Sep 2014)

marathonic said:


> I also received a pack for one of my rental properties.
> 
> My question is - would the tenant themselves have also received a pack? I haven't been speaking to my tenant yet but must contact him next week.



This is very confusing, on the website it says both will receive a pack.
[broken link removed]

but this article seems to say that the landlord hands over the pack to the tenant.
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/irel...-not-liable-for-tenants-water-bills-1.1944634

My tenant has not received a pack yet so maybe I should forward it to them.


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## homecoming (29 Sep 2014)

We are renting for a couple of years as we have returned to Ireland recently. I am the tenant and I have received a pack for our address. I will fill it out with our details and pay the bill based on our usage. I don't expect the landlord to pay.


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## TRipley (30 Sep 2014)

Hi - I clarified this this morning with Irish Water - as a landlord you should receive an application form for your rented property. The source of detail comes from the local authority. The landlord should then forward this application form to the tenants. The tenants then complete and return by end of October. If they don't, then Irish Water will come to the landlord / management company for the tenants details. Irish water will then pursue the tenants. The tenants are responsible for all ensuing water charges. The landlord has no liability for water charges in the tenanted property. If a property is not occupied then the landlord has to pay a flat rate of 125.00 euro per year.


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## TRipley (30 Sep 2014)

Hi - I clarified this this morning with Irish Water - as a landlord you should receive an application form for your rented property. The source of detail comes from the local authority. The landlord should then forward this application form to the tenants. The tenants then complete and return by end of October. If they don't, then Irish Water will come to the landlord / management company for the tenants details. Irish water will then pursue the tenants. The tenants are responsible for all ensuing water charges. The landlord has no liability for water charges in the tenanted property. If a property is not occupied then the landlord has to pay a flat rate of 125.00 euro per year.


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## Booter (30 Sep 2014)

TRipley said:


> Hi - I clarified this this morning with Irish Water - as a landlord you should receive an application form for your rented property.



This is not my experience. I have 2 rented properties. Application packs were sent directly to the properties, addressed to "The Occupier". An application pack for my own home came to me, addressed to me.

Incidentally, both rental properties have tenancies registered with PRTB, and all taxes etc are paid up in full to the relevant authorities. I mention this only in relation to the various reports of Irish Water sourcing their ownership information from other agencies.


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## Sarenco (30 Sep 2014)

I have pasted below an extract from an Irish Times article that was posed on their website earlier today (a moderator might be kind enough to post a link):

_"Irish Water has asked anyone with knowledge of errors in its listings of rental properties to contact the utility and help it to correct its data base. _

_In response to a series of questions put by letting agents and owners of private rental properties Irish Water said :_

_* Every rental unit in the State is to get a pack addressed personally to the occupant. If Irish Water does not have details of a tenant, the pack will be addressed to ‘The Occupier’ _

_* Packs will only be issued to individual rental properties in so far as Irish Water is aware of them _

_* Landlords can contact Irish Water to advise they have let a property_

_* Application Packs are issued relative to the information on the Irish Water mailing list. If this is incorrect or out of date, landlords can contact Irish Water to have the information adjusted_

_* Irish Water will contact known landlords after the initial customer application campaign, to advise of properties for which no application has been received_

_* Irish Water said that when a household is occupied the tenant is liable and when vacant the owner is liable. Both should advise Irish Water of change of status to the property - the tenant to cease liability, the landlord to take it up. _

_Either party may take a reading and provide it to Irish Water, alternatively Irish Water will bill on average consumption, based on the date of change. _

_Irish Water allowances are only available to those with PPS numbers. Irish Water advises anyone not in receipt of a PPS number who wishes to avail of their free water allowances to contact the Department of Social Protection __n order to get a PPS number. _

_Irish Water said the purpose of the customer application campaign is to build an accurate database. _

_Irish Water can be contacted on 1890 448 448."_

No mention in this article to any requirement on the part of landlords to forward application packs to tenants.  This really is farcical at this stage.


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## elcato (30 Sep 2014)

> Incidentally, both rental properties have tenancies registered with  PRTB, and all taxes etc are paid up in full to the relevant authorities.  I mention this only in relation to the various reports of Irish Water  sourcing their ownership information from other agencies.


Well I have received three packs to three different addresses I have lived in over the last tennish years (I have one property let out and rent elsewhere and fully compliant), all of my last three as per revenue. One is the registered PRTB address but only revenue or banks could have supplied all three. I am certain it was not the electoral poll either btw.


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## dillons (3 Oct 2014)

TRipley said:


> The tenants then complete and return by end of October. If they don't, then Irish Water will come to the landlord / management company for the tenants details. Irish water will then pursue the tenants. The tenants are responsible for all ensuing water charges. The landlord has no liability for water charges in the tenanted property.



I'm not sure if this will be the case. I just phoned Irish Water as a landlord who received a pack. I checked with my tenants and they haven't received any pack addressed to 'The Occupier'. I was told that due to 'Data Protection', I am not allowed to give Irish Water the tenants name to send out a pack and remove my liability from this charge.

So... if my tenant decides not to register & pay, which I'm sure some tenants will & the details stay in my name then I'm guessing that I will always be liable for all unpaid bills! 

This doesn't sound like it's been thought through very well, what will happen if I try to sell my property with unpaid water charges from previous tenants?
How will Irish Water persue tenants who haven't paid when they won't take details from the landlord.

I don't understand what this has to do with data protection, the landlord/tenant relationship & all details including PPS numbers is registered with PRTB. 
Electric Ireland and Bord Gais have no problem taking tenant details from me when a new tenant moves in & I phone with meter readings requesting final bills & registering new tenants so why should Irish Water be different.

The big difference is that they won't/can't cut off supply so tenants have much less motivation to sign up.

Looks like landlords are very exposed on this one! I wonder will Irish Water even tell me if there are any unpaid water charges if I phone to check at end of lease? If that's under data protection & they won't tell me then, then I can't deduct what I don't know about from a deposit!


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## squaw (7 Oct 2014)

If the list of rental or second properties was got from the local authority via the NPPR, does this mean the rental properties which arose since the beginning of 2014 will not be contacted. 
Since the NPPR finished in 2013, I presume new rental or second homes acquired since 2014 will be only on the LPT list.
Given the way our contact name and address was written I think the database has come from the Revenue database as it has one letter small typo error that is only on revenue related correspondence.


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## valparaiso (7 Oct 2014)

I've a good tenant. However I won't be sending on the pack to my tenant. I have texted him seeking PPS numbers and he's given them to me. 

I will fill in the form myself and send it in to be on the safe side. 

As there is no signature required at the declaration stage it can't have any legal standing.


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## Gerard123 (7 Oct 2014)

Quick question.  What happens to your good tenant when they realise that you have pretended to be them and completed the form online? Never mind the illegality of doing this unless they have given you permission to act on their behalf. 

Clearly a tenant cost so why would you not send the pack on to them? They will get the bill after all so aren't you better to discover at this stage whether there is a real problem with them not wanting to pay the charge?


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## Bronte (8 Oct 2014)

squaw said:


> If the list of rental or second properties was got from the local authority via the NPPR, does this mean the rental properties which arose since the beginning of 2014 will not be contacted.
> Since the NPPR finished in 2013, I presume new rental or second homes acquired since 2014 will be only on the LPT list.
> Given the way our contact name and address was written I think the database has come from the Revenue database as it has one letter small typo error that is only on revenue related correspondence.


 
I have no letter yet, and I'm on revenue, prtb, lpt, nppr and household charge.


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## dillons (8 Oct 2014)

Just received the below reply from Irish Water to my questions and concerns as a landlord.

It is very clear from this that if the tenant does not register, the landlord will be liable BUT they are not accepting registration details on behalf of tenants from the landlord so it's really dependent on the tenant registering & paying

Landlords are going to be screwed on this. I wonder what percentage of tenants will actually register themselves??

'
[FONT=&quot]Thank you for your email regarding your rented property.[/FONT]
 [FONT=&quot]The tenant needs to apply for the allowances themselves, the landlord can not do so on their behalf.[/FONT]
 [FONT=&quot]Once  the tenant registers the account in their name they are liable for the  payments and any unpaid bills they will be liable for.[/FONT]
 [FONT=&quot]You will receive notification during the month of October to inform you whether or not they have registered.[/FONT]
 [FONT=&quot]You the landlord will only be liable if they fail to register and fail to pay the bill.[/FONT]
As  regards the sale of the property in the event of an unpaid bill, the  amount due will stay with the tenant who is liable and not the property.'

I have reqplied to them seeking clarification on the last statement as I do not understand how the tenant will be liable on the sale of the property if they never registered in the first place!

This is a mess.


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## valparaiso (8 Oct 2014)

Gerard123 said:


> Quick question. What happens to your good tenant when they realise that you have pretended to be them and completed the form online? Never mind the illegality of doing this unless they have given you permission to act on their behalf.
> 
> Clearly a tenant cost so why would you not send the pack on to them? They will get the bill after all so aren't you better to discover at this stage whether there is a real problem with them not wanting to pay the charge?


 

See post #27 . Explains my actions.

I'm not doing it online. There is no way I have time prior to my holiday to do a 140 mile round trip to my tenant. 

This is too important to leave it to someone else. 
The form was sent to me even thought all the authorities know my letting is registered, all NPPR s paid, household charges paid, property taxes paid, rental income returns made and taxes paid.
It addresses me as a Customer . It states that the form should be completed by the person to appear on the bill. If it was really a legal requirement the word "shall" would appear.

I'm simply making sure I'm covered.


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## valparaiso (8 Oct 2014)

dillons said:


> Just received the below reply from Irish Water to my questions and concerns as a landlord.
> 
> It is very clear from this that if the tenant does not register, the landlord will be liable BUT they are not accepting registration details on behalf of tenants from the landlord so it's really dependent on the tenant registering & paying
> 
> ...


 ".. _BUT they are not accepting registration details on behalf of tenants from the landlord so it's really dependent on the tenant registering & paying"_

Since there's no signature required are they going to get handwriting experts in to see who wrote the letters in the boxes?


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## Dermot (8 Oct 2014)

I am considering emailing Irish Water with the Names and addresses of my Tenants and stating that it is up to them (Irish Water) to sort out the matter.  I will keep a copy of the email and use it as my defence that I have done what I could.
I am not allowed to fill out the form on behalf of the Tenants.
I cannot stand over the Tenants and watch them fill it out.
I cannot take the the completed form from the Tenants and post it.
I cannot see how Landlords can be held to ransom by Irish Water on this issue.
Irish Water have access to a huge amount of information and should get off their overpaid a..es and do their job and not be virtually bullying Landlords into doing their job for them.
They certainly got enough resources when starting up.  I have not got my documents from Irish Water yet and some of my Tenants claim they haven't either.  I have no way of knowing that either.  This registration system will not be completed by the end of October.


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## dillons (8 Oct 2014)

Dermot said:


> I am considering emailing Irish Water with the Names and addresses of my Tenants and stating that it is up to them (Irish Water) to sort out the matter.  I will keep a copy of the email and use it as my defence that I have done what I could.



That's a very interesting approach Dermot. 
This morning I listened back to an interview from Matt Cooper's Last Word with Paul McGowen from the Commission for Energy Regulation from 30th September show.
In it he answered a question from Matt on whether tenant or landlord are liable if tenant doesn't fill in the application park. Mr McGowen confirmed that once the landlord proves that they are not resident at the address then they won't be liable.
I have written to the Commission for Energy Regulation with my response from Irish Water today on landlord liability seeking clarity.

I think, I too, will do as you suggested and email Irish Water with tenant/lease/PRTB details so that I have a record of notifying them


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## LARD1 (9 Oct 2014)

Am I right in thinking that once a tenant has registered with the water board,the landlord going forward is never liable then as it is now registered in someone else's name .And what If that tenant A leaves and does not inform water board and a new tenant B moves in and does not bother registering and as the water board wont take details from landlord is tenant A liable going forward as bill is in his name.


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## valparaiso (9 Oct 2014)

"I am not allowed to fill out the form on behalf of the Tenants."

You may do what you like. The form doesn't say Shall it says should..... What if the person/s are illiterate?


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## Bronte (9 Oct 2014)

I've been on again to Irish water. The packs didn't reach me because they used 'Ireland' as the country and for another address they don't have me in the system at all. Apparently there are loads of packs returned unopened in their mail room. They are now spending most of their time fixing their data bases.

I've been told they will confirm in writing that as non occupier I am not liable. I've told them I've no problem signing up as landlord as long as I am not liable, and I've no problem in between tenancies being the payee for that period of time. Apparently that will say mean if it's one week, 1/52 of the annual unoccupied rate. 

They will send me the landlord pack by email so I can see what I am signing up for. 

I will update next week, but I seem to be making a little bit of progress, this is totally different to what I have already in writing from them. I actually dealt with two competent people today, which makes a big change. Once I gave them the address of a property they could see in the data base where the letter went, it has my foreign address. 

You guys wouldn't believe the number of departments and subdivisions they seem to have. What a quango. 

And even funner, they are trying to physically locate on some kind of map tool, where properties actually are, apparently old fellows in Bally go backwards has to help them on the phone to locate it. I asked a very simple question on this, why didn't they use the ESB data base, they must have 99.99995 accuracy rate on addresses in Ireland. Sure that would be too easy I guess, they are trying to reinvent the wheel. 

I honestly thought the PRTB was incompetent when that was set up, but Irish Water takes the biscuit.


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