# Why no mention of that "bankrupcty"



## NOAH (11 Nov 2011)

Was out all day and heard the bold QUINN has gone gone for banruptcy in Belfast, I was driving and did a swerve when I heard this bit " I was born, reared and worked all my life in Co Fermanagh. It is for this reason that my bankruptcy application was made today in Belfast"

Where does this bit about Cavan and what he has done there for the locals come into it?  I thought all his businesses were in Southern Ireland? Where is that big house?

Can he return to the south in 12 months time and start up again as if nothing happened?

n--


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## T McGibney (11 Nov 2011)

Quinn is indeed a native of Fermanagh. He has extensive business interests in Fermanagh including his first cement factory, the glass factory and the Quinn corporate hq. Quinn Direct has a large office in Enniskillen employing hundreds of workers.

Quinn over his lifetime has indeed done a lot for the economies of Cavan and Fermanagh. However the Irish media doesn't pay any attention to what goes on in that part of Northern Ireland once it doesn't involve either cross-border shopping or someone getting murdered, so you never hear a word, good or bad, about Quinn's contribution to Fermanagh or how he is perceived there.

Quinn is a wise man to avail of the more lenient bankruptcy system in the UK. He would have been an idiot to subject himself to the tender mercies of the equivalent Irish regime that would have seen him emerge from bankruptcy at age 76.


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## Sunny (11 Nov 2011)

Amazing how creating a few jobs is supposed to make us somehow forget that he owes the Irish taxpayer over €2 billion and we are now all paying a levy on our insurance policies to pay for Quinn. 

By all accounts Anglo are looking into the bankruptcy.


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## T McGibney (11 Nov 2011)

Sunny said:


> Amazing how creating a few jobs is supposed to make us somehow forget that he owes the Irish taxpayer over €2 billion and we are now all paying a levy on our insurance policies to pay for Quinn.



Remind me again, who has forgotten this


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## z107 (11 Nov 2011)

Sunny said:


> Amazing how creating a few jobs is supposed to make us somehow forget that he owes the Irish taxpayer over €2 billion



It wasn't Quinn that guaranteed the banks back in 2008.
Do you understand that?


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## RMCF (11 Nov 2011)

Couldn't agree more.

Can't understand how this guy is held up as a hero is certain circles. I have watched various news reports where people would back him to the hilt and say how much great work he done.

For me, he just epitomises all that was wrong with the Tiger, and he left us all paying for his recklessness and greed. He gets off owing €2,800,000,000, yet the ordinary Joe int he street will end up in prison or on the streets if he was to owe a fraction of that.


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## Sunny (11 Nov 2011)

T McGibney said:


> Remind me again, who has forgotten this



Plenty of people. Check previous threads on this subject.


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## Sunny (11 Nov 2011)

umop3p!sdn said:


> It wasn't Quinn that guaranteed the banks back in 2008.
> Do you understand that?



I understand that but have no idea what point you are making.


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## z107 (11 Nov 2011)

Sunny said:


> I understand that but have no idea what point you are making.



Well you said that he owes the Irish taxpayer over €2 billion. Well he didn't owe the Irish tax payer anything until the banks were guaranteed by the Irish Government.

Can you see where I'm going with this now, and what my point is? -or are you just trolling?


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## RonanC (12 Nov 2011)

umop3p!sdn said:


> Well you said that he owes the Irish taxpayer over €2 billion. Well he didn't owe the Irish tax payer anything until the banks were guaranteed by the Irish Government.
> 
> Can you see where I'm going with this now, and what my point is? -or are you just trolling?



Sean Quinn owes the Irish taxpayer 2.8bn euro because the Irish Government nationalised Anglo. A seperate issue to the bank guarantee.

Sean Quinn has also cost the Irish taxpayer over 600million euro over the shocking way he was running his insurance company.

And as an Irish resident, he runs to a court in Belfast and declares himself bankrupt.

What a hero he really is, what a role model.


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## Sunny (12 Nov 2011)

umop3p!sdn said:


> Well you said that he owes the Irish taxpayer over €2 billion. Well he didn't owe the Irish tax payer anything until the banks were guaranteed by the Irish Government.
> 
> Can you see where I'm going with this now, and what my point is? -or are you just trolling?



The government guaranteed the banks liabilities. What on earth has that got to do with the money that Sean Quinn borrowed from Anglo? It doesnt matter who he owes money to if i am honest. The fact is that the guy was worth billions at the peak but decided that this wasn't enough for him and so gambled everything on getting even richer including his employees futures. Now according to some people, we are supposed to accept that he is a good man who just made a mistake. Well so were the bankers, polticians and regulators who got us into this mess an we dont think twice about vilifying them. Remember the protest marches in support of Quinn?  

So maybe you should get your facts right before accusing people of trolling.


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## Knuttell (12 Nov 2011)

RonanC said:


> Sean Quinn owes the Irish taxpayer 2.8bn euro because the Irish Government nationalised Anglo. A seperate issue to the bank guarantee.
> 
> Sean Quinn has also cost the Irish taxpayer over 600million euro over the shocking way he was running his insurance company.
> 
> ...



Nicely put.

Classy,runs up fantastic debts here and scuttles across the border to escape them.

I watched the news last night and there was the usual talking heads from in and around where Quinn lives,these people except one were highly sympathetic to Quinner and expressed how bad they felt at his fall,despite the fact that they and their children will be paying for it for decades...now what struck me about these people is,that these are the type that keep returning the Lowrys and the Beverly Cooper Flynns.

It probably isn't democratic but I think the right to vote should be tied to an IQ test.


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## T McGibney (12 Nov 2011)

Knuttell said:


> .now what struck me about these people is,that these are the type that keep returning the Lowrys and the Beverly Cooper Flynns.
> 
> It probably isn't democratic but I think the right to vote should be tied to an IQ test.


This post makes my blood boil. You have some cheek to make judgments about the IQs of others whose opinion does not concur with yours. 

It wasnt only the slow-witted country bumpkins in Cavan who ever voted for Charlie Haughey, Ray Burke, Liam Lawlor or Bertie Ahern.   Not to mention Garret Fitzgerald who racked up ruinous personal debts and got them written off in a sweetheart deal 

ps The independent Quinn employees candidate came *11th* in this year's election in Cavan/Monaghan.


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## Knuttell (12 Nov 2011)

T McGibney said:


> This post makes my blood boil.* You have some cheek to make judgments about the IQs of others whose opinion does not concur with yours. *



In the *real world *this actually happens a great deal..

and then you go on to say..



> It wasnt only the slow-witted country bumpkins in Cavan



Oh dear! did you really say that?Despite telling me I have some cheek to be making judgments on others IQs?? why yes you did...

You're tripping over yourself in your effort to be outraged.


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## T McGibney (12 Nov 2011)

Sorry, I have no absolutely idea what your point is. Must be my inferior IQ.


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## Knuttell (12 Nov 2011)

T McGibney said:


> Quinn over his lifetime has indeed done a lot for the economies of Cavan



Its a terrible pity then that there isn't any way they can shoulder *all *the debt he has splattered over the rest of us...

I can guarantee you one thing,there would be precious few in Cavan ready to give interviews to RTE saying what a grand fella he is and it being a terrible blow for him and his "fambly" because I will tell you something for nothing,there are precious few outside Cavan that hold him in anything other than contempt.


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## T McGibney (12 Nov 2011)

Knuttell said:


> Its a terrible pity then that there isn't any way they can shoulder *all *the debt he has splattered all over the rest of us...
> 
> I can guarantee you one thing,there would be precious few in Cavan ready to give interviews to RTE saying what a grand fella he is and it being a terrible blow for him and his fambly(sic)because I will tell you something for nowt,there are precious few outside Cavan that hold him in anything other than contempt.



I have not defended Quinn on this thread, yet you have selectively quoted my opening post to give the opposite impression. I don't know what your agenda is but I have no intention of continuing to engage with your trolling.


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## Purple (12 Nov 2011)

Sean Quinn ran businesses he understood very well. 
He then got into businesses he knew nothing about and tried to run them. The net result was some very dodgy dealings and a viability to the state of well over two billion. Let’s be clear here; this isn’t a hard luck story about a conservatively run business that fell because of difficult trading conditions, this is a story about a man who gambled everything he had, and plenty other people had as well, and lost.
An employer has a responsibility to their employees as well as their shareholders to run the business properly and without unnecessary risk. In my opinion Sean Quinn failed to do this and plenty of people who can’t afford to go to the UK to avail of their bankruptcy laws have been left to pick up the pieces.

As for the jobs he created in Cavan and the border region; with a net cost in the billions it wasn’t worth it.


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## Pope John 11 (12 Nov 2011)

Yes, Sean Quinn gives the two fingers to the Irish Tax payer

No respect for the man, but if he does set up businesses again he can gain my respect back by paying his debts, like us all.


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## Knuttell (12 Nov 2011)

T McGibney said:


> I don't know what your agenda is but *I have no intention of continuing to engage with your trolling.*



My adgenda as you call it is simple...I am a taxpayer...I need no further adgenda than that,I and my children children (if they haven't had to emigrate) will be paying for this decades from now,so I think this entitles me to give an opinion on it. 

*Trolling???*This seems to be the out clause whenever someone has run out of runway for their argument or has been shown up to be deluded.

Here are some quotes that "made my blood boil" I could give you close to 2.8 billion reasons but to my mind anyone defending or sympathizing with Quinn needs to be pulled up and pulled up hard on the consequences of this individuals almost single handed bankrupting of the State...regardless of Bank Guarantees or any other back ground noise..




> Quinn over his lifetime has indeed done a lot for the economies of Cavan and Fermanagh.





> Quinn is a wise man to avail of the more lenient bankruptcy system in the UK.



I wonder will you be half so sympathetic towards your fellow County man after the Budget in December.


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## z107 (12 Nov 2011)

I just don't understand why so many people are blaming Quinn for the €2Billion Anglo debt.

Sean Quinn didn't guarantee the banks nor did he nationalise Anglo - it was the Irish government that did that!

Sean Quinn took business risks and lost. Unfortunately for us, the Irish government intervened.


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## Purple (12 Nov 2011)

umop3p!sdn said:


> Sean Quinn took business risks and lost.



Ah c'mon, he did a bit more than that!


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## Sunny (12 Nov 2011)

umop3p!sdn said:


> I just don't understand why so many people are blaming Quinn for the €2Billion Anglo debt.
> 
> Sean Quinn didn't guarantee the banks nor did he nationalise Anglo - it was the Irish government that did that!
> 
> Sean Quinn took business risks and lost. Unfortunately for us, the Irish government intervened.



Eh? Because he borrowed the money. He borrowed it not to invest in a business, he invested in it to gamble to increase his personal wealth by taking a gamble on Anglos share price. He put his company on the line for personal gain.
 Thats not even mentioning the disgraceful running of an insurance company that put policy holders at risk. Are you saying the Government should not have intervened there?  There are plenty of people struggling to pay their mortgage that would love to walk into a court in Belfast and get themselves declared bankrupt.


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## z107 (12 Nov 2011)

Sunny said:


> Eh? Because he borrowed the money. He borrowed it not to invest in a business, he invested in it to gamble to increase his personal wealth by taking a gamble on Anglos share price. Thats not even mentioning the disgraceful running of an insurance company that put policy holders at risk. Are you saying the Government should not have intervened there?  There are plenty of people struggling to pay their mortgage that would love to walk into a court in Belfast and get themselves declared bankrupt.



No, of course the government should not of intervened. Look where that has left us! - every one paying back the debt. 

As for your second point, well people are going to the UK to become bankrupt, isn't there even threads on AAM about it? I'm sure I've also heard of companies being set up to facilitate people. Why not? - if I had a half million euro house in huge negative equity, I'd be long gone to the UK for bankruptcy.



> Ah c'mon, he did a bit more than that!


We don't know that Sean Quinn did anything illegal. As long as everything he did was legal, then I can't see the problem with the way he ran his companies.

I'll reiterate, the problem was the government's decision to nationalise the banks and also guarantee them. If it wasn't for these decisions, then we would not be paying back Sean Quinn's debts.


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## Mpsox (14 Nov 2011)

umop3p!sdn said:


> No, of course the government should not of intervened. Look where that has left us! - every one paying back the debt.
> 
> As for your second point, well people are going to the UK to become bankrupt, isn't there even threads on AAM about it? I'm sure I've also heard of companies being set up to facilitate people. Why not? - if I had a half million euro house in huge negative equity, I'd be long gone to the UK for bankruptcy.
> 
> ...


 
No, the problem was the Sean Quinn did the equivalent of going to Vegas and putting every cent he owned and all the jobs of the people he employed on black, and red came up.

The Govt guarantee had nothing to do with this, Anglo share price was in free fall long before that the Govt nationalised the banks and Quinn would not be in a position to pay Anglo back and would still have been declared bankrupt. 

You can argue that if the Govt guarentee had not existed, then we would not have been picking up the tab for the €2bn. However, instead, we probably would have had much of our savings wiped out, major banks gone to the wall and no credit available for businesses. Things are bad now, they would have been far worse. it's an incredibly naive view to think that if we hadn't had the guarantee, we would not be in the mess we're in


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## DerKaiser (14 Nov 2011)

Here's the issue.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doublethink

Recently people have been very principled and clear on why casino capitalism and cronyism have screwed us as a nation.

Sean Quinn was part of that but is being defended by people who benefitted from it for a while.  They won't acknowledge that they only had a job as a byproduct of the type of fly by night cowboyism that has left us in the hole we're in.

It doesn't matter whether it's D4, Cavan or North Tipp, we can't continue this doublethink of excusing the irresponsible behaviour if it has benefitted us and our locality.


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## T McGibney (14 Nov 2011)

DerKaiser said:


> Sean Quinn was part of that but is being defended by people who benefitted from it for a while.  They won't acknowledge that they only had a job as a byproduct of the type of fly by night cowboyism that has left us in the hole we're in.
> 
> It doesn't matter whether it's D4, Cavan or North Tipp, we can't continue this doublethink of excusing the irresponsible behaviour if it has benefitted us and our locality.



Note that not one person in Cavan or Fermanagh ever benefitted from Quinn's dealings with/in Anglo.


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## shanegl (14 Nov 2011)

umop3p!sdn said:


> I just don't understand why so many people are blaming Quinn for the €2Billion Anglo debt.
> 
> Sean Quinn didn't guarantee the banks nor did he nationalise Anglo - it was the Irish government that did that!
> 
> Sean Quinn took business risks and lost. Unfortunately for us, the Irish government intervened.



No he didn't. Unless the business of the Quinn Group was betting the house on an individual CFD.

He's been in the press moaning about how he's being characterised as a reckless gambler. Quite disgusting to be honest.


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## Complainer (14 Nov 2011)

I'm reading 'The Fitzpatrick Tapes' at the moment. It is very clear that very large billion euro decisions by both Anglo and Quinn were being made on the back of an envelope, with no risk assessment involved at all. Fitzpatrick wasn't aware of the full scale of Quinn's existing borrowings from Anglo at the time that they arranged the Golden Circle sell-off.


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## Purple (14 Nov 2011)

Complainer said:


> Fitzpatrick wasn't aware of the full scale of Quinn's existing borrowings from Anglo at the time that they arranged the Golden Circle sell-off.


 Shocking stuff; no due diligence done on transactions in the billions. If that’s not reckless trading then the law is as ass.


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## Firefly (14 Nov 2011)

Purple said:


> Shocking stuff; no due diligence done on transactions in the billions. If that’s not reckless trading then the law is as ass.



I think this is human nature...ever notice people scrutinising over different tinned beans in the supermarget to get the best deals? The difference is pennies, yet the same people probably bought their last car/holiday/home (eve) on a whim.


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## Firefly (14 Nov 2011)

Complainer said:


> I'm reading 'The Fitzpatrick Tapes' at the moment.



Are you far into it and is it any good? Looks like one of the better ones written about the whole sorry saga.


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## Complainer (14 Nov 2011)

Firefly said:


> Are you far into it and is it any good? Looks like one of the better ones written about the whole sorry saga.



It's worth reading. Your local library should have it. It paints a clear picture that Fitzpatrick was not the smartest spanner in the tool shed, but he was the salesman and the schmoozer that made deals happen.


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## DerKaiser (14 Nov 2011)

T McGibney said:


> Note that not one person in Cavan or Fermanagh ever benefitted from Quinn's dealings with/in Anglo.


 
The money Quinn was loaned by Anglo to buy Anglo shares is not the entirety of his reckless behaviour.

Quinn Direct was shown to be insolvent when reviewed independently.

Not many people in Cavan/Fermanagh would have benefitted from Quinn's CFD misadventures but they did benefit temporarily from the unsustainable jobs he wrongly created as well as the sustainable ones that he rightly created.  

Now you can't blame anyone for taking a job, but lets be clear, people are defending him because he brought prosperity to the area, some of which is now shown to be nothing more than a credit fuelled misadventure that is costing all of us money.


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## T McGibney (14 Nov 2011)

DerKaiser said:


> The money Quinn was loaned by Anglo to buy Anglo shares is not the entirety of his reckless behaviour.
> 
> Quinn Direct was shown to be insolvent when reviewed independently.
> 
> ...



The solvency of Quinn Direct only became an issue when the entire group was put into administration. I know nothing of the intricacies of its solvency position at that time and for that reason I don't particularly want to comment in that regard but the principles of going concern suggests that the 'going concern' worth of a company is always higher than the 'firesale' value that would apply once the company is put into administration.

I would suggest that it is a bit off to be dismissing a company with as decent long-term track record as Quinn Direct as "nothing more than a credit fuelled misadventure that is costing all of us money".  There are plenty of companies that would fall into that bracket, if those criteria were applied.


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## Shawady (14 Nov 2011)

The move is to be challenged by Anglo.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/1114/quinn-business.html


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## DerKaiser (14 Nov 2011)

T McGibney said:


> The solvency of Quinn Direct only became an issue when the entire group was put into administration. I know nothing of the intricacies of its solvency position at that time and for that reason I don't particularly want to comment in that regard but the principles of going concern suggests that the 'going concern' worth of a company is always higher than the 'firesale' value that would apply once the company is put into administration.


 
They breached the solvency rules. You don't get into rows on solvency with the regulator if you want to credibly do business in an industry where solvency and reputation are paramount. Unfortunately for Quinn, a field valued at €1m in Co Cavan in 2007 does not satisfy solvency requirements in the same way as a promise by the german government to pay you €1m in 3 months would.



T McGibney said:


> I would suggest that it is a bit off to be dismissing a company with as decent long-term track record as Quinn Direct as "nothing more than a credit fuelled misadventure that is costing all of us money". There are plenty of companies that would fall into that bracket, if those criteria were applied.


 
I really don't want to get into a full scale argument here, but 15 years odd is not long term in the insurance industry.

_The Insurance Compensation Fund is paying Liberty Mutual €738m to take over Quinn Insurance funded by a levy on insurance policyholders._

Need I say anymore about why Quinn Direct does deserve our scorn?


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## Firefly (14 Nov 2011)

Complainer said:


> ...It paints a clear picture that Fitzpatrick was not the smartest spanner in the tool shed, but he was the salesman and the schmoozer that made deals happen*.*



I'm sure his defense will consider this argument too...all the board's fault yer honour..


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## T McGibney (14 Nov 2011)

The fact though that Quinn Direct has found a buyer and is still a going concern must count for something though.


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## T McGibney (14 Nov 2011)

Complainer said:


> It paints a clear picture that Fitzpatrick was not the smartest spanner in the tool shed.



It was always only a matter of time before that particular geezer used the old 'cognitive impairment' line


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## DerKaiser (14 Nov 2011)

T McGibney said:


> The fact though that Quinn Direct has found a buyer and is still a going concern must count for something though.


 
Yes it does.  It closed its UK operations, got a €738m state injection and hopefully we are now left with a viable operation.  

It may have been a good business that was mismanaged (by Quinn) in its later years, but make no mistake it was heading in a very dangerous direction before Matthew Elderfield stepped in.


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## csirl (15 Nov 2011)

Quinn always portrayed himself as an Irish businessman - someone who was proud to be Irish. It looks like this was all a ruse. Now that he's bankrupt, he's suddenly become a British person with no connections to Ireland and no interest in having his situation handled by Irish law.


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## T McGibney (15 Nov 2011)

csirl said:


> Quinn always portrayed himself as an Irish businessman - someone who was proud to be Irish. It looks like this was all a ruse. Now that he's bankrupt, he's suddenly become a British person with no connections to Ireland and no interest in having his situation handled by Irish law.



As I outlined earlier in this thread Quinn has always portrayed himself, first and foremost, as a Fermanagh man - and the BBC agree. 

Although most nationalists in Northern Ireland count themselves as Irish, the fact that they pay British taxes and are subject to British laws doesn't mean that they are British. 

Quinn has lived in the Republic for many years but paradoxically his company's corporate HQ has always remained in Derrylin. The personal/corporate tax residence experts are going to have a field day with his case.


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## NOAH (16 Nov 2011)

yeah and all his accounts were submitted in the north!!


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