# Eirgrid almost ran short of electricity last week



## joe sod (12 Dec 2020)

Very little media focus on this strangely but Eirgrid almost had a power outage last week due to insufficient power on the grid. There was a surge in power demand due to the very cold weather there was no wind power and Moneypoint and Whitegate powerstations were offline due to technical problems. They barely got away with it due to just about getting enough power in through the interconnectors from the UK.
Yet the media widely reported that Moneypoint did not get a licence to continue to produce power upto 2025 and we have mothballed the Midlands peat burning stations even though they have 20 years of generating life still left. Are we crazy, why are the media not reporting this very critical stuff that we are running out of generating capacity while shutting down perfectly good generating stations because of dogma rather than real life practicalities.


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## newirishman (12 Dec 2020)

That’s why there is the interconnector and why there’s another in the pipeline.
Good riddance to the peat burning stations. They are not perfectly good generating stations.


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## huskerdu (12 Dec 2020)

I saw plenty of media coverage of it . 

It was an orange warning and they coped with it .   It’s not news that We need to continue to fund building resilient power generating infrastructure . Burning peat is not the answer.


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## RichInSpirit (12 Dec 2020)

There are a lot of Christmas lights on at the moment too. They are probably light enough on power but it all adds up.


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## joe sod (12 Dec 2020)

newirishman said:


> That’s why there is the interconnector and why there’s another in the pipeline.


But there was a power surge in UK too, they have the same weather as us and also no wind power then. They barely managed to get enough power through it to cope, it was alot more serious than was reported because if another small generating supply was knocked out then we were into power outages. When you start running power stations at full capacity to crank up supply the higher the likelihood of problems, Oh and the battery backups that are widely touted as storage for wind energy are depleted in a few minutes if fully drawn. Only the RTE website reported it, it did not make the 9 O clock news or newspaper headlines


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## lledlledlled (12 Dec 2020)

Time to consider nuclear?


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## cremeegg (12 Dec 2020)

lledlledlled said:


> Time to consider nuclear?



Only if you are happy to let the Taliban look after the storage. While we don't have the Taliban in power here now who is to say that we will not within the lifetime of nuclear waste. Look at who the US has, not as irresponsible as the Taliban but hey !


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## PMU (12 Dec 2020)

joe sod said:


> Very little media focus on this strangely but Eirgrid almost had a power outage last week due to insufficient power on the grid. There was a surge in power demand due to the very cold weather there was no wind power and Moneypoint and Whitegate powerstations were offline due to technical problems. They barely got away with it due to just about getting enough power in through the interconnectors from the UK.


At least 15 years ago I attended a public meeting in the RDS on nuclear power for Ireland. This particular point on low temperatures and no wind was highlighted. One of the speakers pointed out that Ireland is susceptible to periods of high atmospheric pressure and low temperatures, typically in January.  So on a night without clouds it's cold, very cold, but there is no wind, or what little wind there is flows out of the area of high pressure.  There is not enough wind at these times to generate sufficient electricity.

So we need something that's clean and gives us energy security, and that's nuclear.


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## joe sod (12 Dec 2020)

@PMU yes I agree however there is not the political will or public support to go down this road, it simply not going to get done in time. So what happens is they close down moneypoint because of dogma but they don't have anything to replace it with. The people and regulators that decide to close down moneypoint are non technical and are not tasked with the job of replacing it. If they were the ones that had the responsibility of replacing money point and risking power outages well then they would think long and hard about not licensing it. Their remit is too narrow , they should also bear the responsibility for  the decisions they make.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (13 Dec 2020)

Nuclear is extremely expensive. It has lots of climate and reliability advantages, but its proponents rarely mention the costs.

Otherwise I am a bit puzzled that demand is peaking now of all times. I would have thought that with so much of the night-time economy closed demand would be down a bit.


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## horusd (13 Dec 2020)

Peat stations should never be reopened.  That period is over. We need massive investment in upgrading our energy users to increase efficiency and increasing our Green supply  options.  The real crisis is Climate Change.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (13 Dec 2020)

horusd said:


> The real crisis is Climate Change.



It's not a crisis. Covid is a crisis.

Climate change is moving very slowly. If thermometers didn't exist you wouldn't notice the difference over the course of a human lifetime.

The response to climate change needs big, structural changes to everything we do. But the apocalyptic tone of the activists is completely misplaced.


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## horusd (13 Dec 2020)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> It's not a crisis. Covid is a crisis.
> "
> Climate change is moving very slowly. If thermometers didn't exist *you wouldn't notice the difference over the course of a human lifetime.  "Tell that to the people of Sub-sahara Africa and coastal parts of Asia, never min d the Bahama's and other low-lying islands threatened with utter destruction."*
> 
> The response to climate change needs big, structural changes to everything we do. But the apocalyptic tone of the activists is completely misplaced.



In our extremely  short time  in existence as sentient beings, we have almost managed to destroy the environment.   Some people say we will destroy the planet, I don't agree with that view - the earth will survive I imagine - we imperil ourselves, and it is avoidable, As a by the by, the UN  considers it a crisis. But there ya go.  In any event, what is totally missed are the huge economic potentials thru a Green economy, Climate technologies and decarbonization makes economic and environmental sense.


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## MrEarl (13 Dec 2020)

Yet another reason to be promoting solar energy, and allowing residents to sell excess supply back into the national grid.


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## jpd (13 Dec 2020)

Don't think that would have helped last week - it was pretty dark after 5pm


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## Nermal (13 Dec 2020)

horusd said:


> In any event, what is totally missed are the huge economic potentials thru a Green economy, Climate technologies and decarbonization.



Spending vastly more money to make even less power is not 'economic potential'.

If you think decarbonisation in decadal timeframes is necessary, fair enough. It's a legitimate point of view. But don't pretend it will not make us significantly poorer.


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## horusd (13 Dec 2020)

Nermal said:


> Spending vastly more money to make even less power is not 'economic potential'.
> 
> If you think decarbonisation in decadal timeframes is necessary, fair enough. It's a legitimate point of view. But don't pretend it will not make us significantly poorer.





Nermal said:


> Spending vastly more money to make even less power is not 'economic potential'.
> 
> If you think decarbonisation in decadal timeframes is necessary, fair enough. It's a legitimate point of view. But don't pretend it will not make us significantly poorer.


 I'll take poorer and sustainable over short-term  and unsustainable consumerism and the costs thereof. These costs, which will mount will mostly be borne by future generations. It beholds us, as the last generation that can stop cataclysmic environmental damage, to prevent it. But in any event, i think the argument that tackling climate change will make us poorer is not supported by  evidence.  

See:

Imperial College.https://www.imperial.ac.uk/grantham/publications/climate-change-faqs/how-will-acting-on-climate-change-affect-the-economy/

OECD: http://www.oecd.org/env/cc/46533174.pdf

The Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/environ...nge-would-grow-global-economy-world-bank-says


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## joe sod (13 Dec 2020)

horusd said:


> Peat stations should never be reopened. That period is over.


it looks like the power station in shannonbridge Co Offaly only shut 2 days ago so was actually operational when we almost ran out of power last week, so it could have been critical without that power station on the grid.









						Shannonbridge turbines to turn for final time
					

The turbines at the West Offaly Power Station in Shannonbridge will turn for the final time as the ESB prepares to shut down production.




					www.rte.ie
				




also heard that the power station is to be dismantled and shipped to China  to be operated as a coal fired power station so even more carbon ends up in the atmosphere but it is on China's account rather than ours so its all good


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## MrEarl (14 Dec 2020)

Nermal said:


> Spending vastly more money to make even less power is not 'economic potential'.
> 
> If you think decarbonisation in decadal timeframes is necessary, fair enough. It's a legitimate point of view. But don't pretend it will not make us significantly poorer.



I take it that you are not factoring on the significant fines that we will pay, for not hitting our targets in 2030.


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## horusd (14 Dec 2020)

Not tackling climate change  because it might cost a few bob  (and I don't accept this is at all the case) is like a not paying for a resuscitation  coz ye'll be charged for the electricity. And BTW, if the planet is unlivable, where are ye and yer family going to live?


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## PMU (14 Dec 2020)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> Nuclear is extremely expensive. It has lots of climate and reliability advantages, but its proponents rarely mention the costs.


  I wouldn't say that.  You can read all about it here: New Nuclear for Ireland – BENE – Better Environment with Nuclear Energy www.bene.ie


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## Zenith63 (14 Dec 2020)

joe sod said:


> Are we crazy, why are the media not reporting this very critical stuff that we are running out of generating capacity while shutting down perfectly good generating stations because of dogma rather than real life practicalities.


Is it possible the reason it did not get much attention is because it is not as critical as you're suggesting?

The only article on the topic, written by a midlands correspondent, dedicates three quarters of that article to why the midlands based power stations should continue to operate and the impact on the area of shutting them down - does not seem that journalist is even too concerned about the possible network outage.  Meanwhile Eirgrid, a very capable organisation that regularly consults for other countries on how to operate a modern grid/generation programme, are confident on moving from 30% renewable generation to 70% in the coming years.


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## PGF2016 (14 Dec 2020)

Nermal said:


> Spending vastly more money to make even less power is not 'economic potential'.
> 
> If you think decarbonisation in decadal timeframes is necessary, fair enough. It's a legitimate point of view. But don't pretend it will not make us significantly poorer.


Why our how do you think decarbonisation will make us significantly poorer?


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## losttheplot (14 Dec 2020)

I thought the wind turbines could be powered by gas in the event there was no wind.


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## Jim2007 (14 Dec 2020)

Nermal said:


> But don't pretend it will not make us significantly poorer.



A reduction in wealth versus total destruction.... kind of hard to take you seriously


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## Protocol (14 Dec 2020)

losttheplot said:


> I thought the wind turbines could be powered by gas in the event there was no wind.



Each individual wind turbine? Obviously not.

There isn't a gas pipeline running up and down hills to wind turbines.


You may mean that gas-fired power can be ramped up if there is no wind? Yes, that happens.


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## AlbacoreA (14 Dec 2020)

joe sod said:


> Very little media focus on this strangely but Eirgrid almost had a power outage last week due to insufficient power on the grid. ....



The story I read said they there was outside possibility of an outage because they 2 or 3 "generators" (bit vague) out with technical issues and IF there was a problem with the interconnector AND other vague things then it MIGHT have caused an outage. They also mentioned we've had historical peaks in usage lately, and the article also mentioned the stations being decommissioned. It didn't make a direct link between those things but it was trying hard to make the connection without actually saying it. Then there was the parish pump whole save our local stations bit. 

I wasn't sure if this was being spun for local politics, or spun to highlight resourcing issues for maintenance of infrastructure, or spun some obstuse political dig at the greens. 

If anyone has a link that's less vague about what happened and it's happening maybe they could share it.

Maybe everyone's out panic buying candles. When a cheap led torch lasts weeks on a battery.


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## joe sod (14 Dec 2020)

@AlbacoreA I have a good link here that explains, the article I linked above about Shannonbridge power station was yes focussed on the local issues , loss of jobs etc, however the point I was making is that this power station was operating and online when we experienced the peak demand and technical problems at Moneypoint. We are closing power stations at the very time we are experiencing record demand.








						Eirgrid warns of record-breaking demand for electricity
					

Ireland's all-time record demand for electricity in Ireland was broken twice in the past week.




					www.irishexaminer.com


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## PGF2016 (14 Dec 2020)

joe sod said:


> We are closing power stations at the very time we are experiencing record demand.


And we have record supply also. Would be silly to keep polluting plants open for no reason.


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## joe sod (14 Dec 2020)

PGF2016 said:


> And we have record supply also. Would be silly to keep polluting plants open for no reason.


if you read the thread and the articles you would know that we had the peak demand when the wind was not blowing, only conventional power stations and interconnectors (also to conventional and nuclear generators in UK) were available. If there is no wind blowing, there is no wind power its very simple.


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## horusd (14 Dec 2020)

The solution to this problem will be found, but it will likely be focused on several fronts. Improved efficiency lowering demand, home generation and resale of power to the National Grid. Storing wind power energy  for days when  there's little or no wind, greater integration with other networks around Europe, and the development of new technologies like wave energy.   This is a complex problem, but it is doable methinks.


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## rob oyle (14 Dec 2020)

The headline on this thread could vey well have been - 'After years of recognising the need to limit our (energy) consumption, Ireland experiences record demand for electricity'.

Despite all the efforts made to make electrical systems more efficient, this hasn't led to a reduction in usage. We set targets for renewable PENETRATION of electricity generation without recognising that this means nothing if we continue to increase our consumption.

We've known we need to stop mining turf and burning it for years, yet the closure of a couple of power stations which spent every day of their existence releasing stored carbon into the atmosphere is somehow presented as a bad idea, a rushed decision. Data centres are the new opportunity for Ireland without the acknowledgement that they are massive electricity consumers. We have a target of one million electric cars but no plan of how to power them. It's bonkers stuff really. And we're a country with a disparate population where everyone MUST have a car, an island state so air travel is a must and an agricultural economy so that is also a special case. We'll do nothing as long as we are only tinkering around the edges and making special cases for everything.


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## AlbacoreA (14 Dec 2020)

joe sod said:


> @AlbacoreA I have a good link here that explains, the article I linked above about Shannonbridge power station was yes focussed on the local issues , loss of jobs etc, however the point I was making is that this power station was operating and online when we experienced the peak demand and technical problems at Moneypoint. We are closing power stations at the very time we are experiencing record demand.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Seems like everyone's blaming renewables for the problem. But the problem was caused by conventional stations breaking down all at the same time.


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## PGF2016 (14 Dec 2020)

joe sod said:


> if you read the thread and the articles you would know that we had the peak demand when the wind was not blowing, only conventional power stations and interconnectors (also to conventional and nuclear generators in UK) were available. If there is no wind blowing, there is no wind power its very simple.


I understand that if the wind doesn't blow then electricity is not generated. That is, indeed, very simple.

But that's not the point I made. You commented...


joe sod said:


> We are closing power stations at the very time we are experiencing record demand.


You only told half the story to suit your narrative.  You neglected to mention that we have more supply than ever. 

That there were a number of technical difficulties constraining supply around the same time is troubling but, I would guess, a freak occurrence. I wonder if that was unprecedented.


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## PGF2016 (14 Dec 2020)

AlbacoreA said:


> Seems like everyone's blaming renewables for the problem. But the problem was caused by conventional stations breaking down all at the same time.


In Australia those clinging on to coal power keep bringing up the problems with solar not being reliable or available when most needed. But in reality the solar stations when paired with batteries produce a more reliable, cheaper and cleaner supply than coal due to reliability problems with the coal stations.

Can't remember the source unfortunately.


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## AlbacoreA (14 Dec 2020)

They didn't suddenly discover it's not windy all the time. Which seems to be the fairy tale being pushed here.


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## joe sod (15 Dec 2020)

AlbacoreA said:


> Seems like everyone's blaming renewables for the problem. But the problem was caused by conventional stations breaking down all at the same time.


No everyone is saying we need more renewables, we need to stop releasing carbon etc etc, that's what the thrust of the comments are here. Then when it is pointed out that we almost ran out of power because of power station problems and no renewables being available at the critical time, people stick their fingers in their ears and don't want to hear the reality. A lot of aspects with renewables are aspirational like storage. Currently battery storage can only level out uneven power generation by wind turbines, no battery could could supply a large town for a day or a absorb the total generating capacity of a large wind farm . That is the limits of technology and physics and is star trek stuff.


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## horusd (15 Dec 2020)

One of the interesting ways to overcome the power storage problem was featured a few months ago on eco eye. Essentially, pump water uphill ( from a former quarry) then hydro power created when needed. The solution to the power problem will be multidirectional. The key will be to find ways to decarbonise rapidly.  The way the pandemic focused minds and resources shows how we might tackle the problem. We know we have to.


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## AlbacoreA (15 Dec 2020)

joe sod said:


> No everyone is saying we need more renewables, we need to stop releasing carbon etc etc, that's what the thrust of the comments are here. Then when it is pointed out that we almost ran out of power because of power station problems and no renewables being available at the critical time, people stick their fingers in their ears and don't want to hear the reality. A lot of aspects with renewables are aspirational like storage. Currently battery storage can only level out uneven power generation by wind turbines, no battery could could supply a large town for a day or a absorb the total generating capacity of a large wind farm . That is the limits of technology and physics and is star trek stuff.



The issue was the conventional power stations. If you ONLY had conventional power stations and a bunch of them failed. You'd have the same problem. 

Most people on this thread have lived with conventional powered electricity their entire lives. Yet we are all familiar with power cuts and hunting for candles in the dark. If you are trying sell the old ways as far more robust and reliable, it won't wash. 

This story has nothing to do with renewable energy.


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## RedOnion (15 Dec 2020)

For anyone interested in looking at actual data on generation & usage across the entire grid: http://smartgriddashboard.eirgrid.com/

It's hard to believe, reading a thread like this, that there are people who actually know what they're doing who are looking after security of supply.

Peak usage every day is driven by residential patterns. Nearly everybody in the country makes a cup of tea and cooks their dinner in a 2 hour window in the evening. Throw in a percentage having electric showers, and turning on the washing machine or dishwasher. There are lots of international studies available showing supply risk models based on the time people enter the home after work / study, etc, and impact in energy usage.

This has nothing to do with renewables. The issue had always existed, and is the very reason that Turlogh Hill exists. The pumped hydro facility there has been operational since 1974! I recall hearing that it used to get called up during the ad break in Glenroe back in the late '80's as a million households turned on their kettle to make a cup of tea.

To truly embrace renewable energy means having flexibility of demand. That means handing over control of when your immersion gets turned on, or your electric car gets charged to a central computer that does so when there's over supply during the night. Smart metering and variable pricing based on time will help. The problem isn't uniquely Irish, but is highlighted because we're a small island nation.


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## AlbacoreA (15 Dec 2020)

I would hate to see a hatchet job done by the media and other vested interests on emerging renewable technologies as we are seeing here. 

The anti cycling agenda in the media has really held progress on that back many decades. 

None of these things are perfect solutions in themselves. There is a place for conventional energies for a long time, and perhaps until it runs out. 
But lets not throw the baby out with the bathwater.


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## horusd (15 Dec 2020)

"This has nothing to do with renewables. The issue had always existed, and is the very reason that Turlogh Hill exists. The pumped hydro facility there has been operational since 1974! I recall hearing that it used to get called up during the ad break in Glenroe back in the late '80's as a million households turned on their kettle to make a cup of tea."@RedOnion.

I think this method featured on Eco-Eye specifically because the owners converted an open-style quarry and used wind energy to pump up the water in a kind of closed system. In effect, a number of birds were killed with one stone (apologies to bird lovers)  inasmuch as an unsightly quarry was repurposed and turned into a useful store of energy similar to Turlough hill.  I really like the idea of centralized control to manage the power supply. As a matter of interest, one of the Eco-eye docs  this year was from inside Eirgrid in D4.  As this is a huge issue going forward, it really needs to be tackled at many levels from micro to macro, including the big polluters of agri-business and personal transport etc.


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## joe sod (15 Dec 2020)

RedOnion said:


> This has nothing to do with renewables. The issue had always existed, and is the very reason that Turlogh Hill exists. The pumped hydro facility there has been operational since 1974!


Of course it has to do with renewables, because our whole electricity supply policy is now based around wind power, it's supposed to supply 40% of our total generating capacity now, That is why we are closing the Midlands stations because of this 40% we are supposed to be getting from wind, it all looks great on paper and that's the problem. The reality is that 40% was not available when supply was critical. To say it's nothing to do with renewables is a denial of reality . 

Yes we have had power cuts before but because of damage to the network , never because the grid was unable to meet supply, when that happens it is much more serious because then the grid can completely fail as happened in New York a decade ago as power stations are knocked out like dominoes as demand surges.


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## Nermal (15 Dec 2020)

PGF2016 said:


> Why our how do you think decarbonisation will make us significantly poorer?



I should have been more specific: decarbonising just electricity generation alone will make us significantly poorer, because we'll have to spend more to generate the same amount of power. As for decarbonising how we travel, eat, construct, manufacture...



horusd said:


> One of the interesting ways to overcome the power storage problem was featured a few months ago on eco eye. Essentially, pump water uphill ( from a former quarry) then hydro power created when needed.



Great. All you have to do to is build the largest pumped-hydro installation in the world. And then another one. And another one after that.

Now you've bought us 24 hours.

At current consumption levels.

So let's hope our windless days come now, instead of when our entire fleet is electric and every home and building has a heat pump...



Jim2007 said:


> A reduction in wealth versus *total destruction*.... kind of hard to take you seriously



Right back at you!


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## horusd (15 Dec 2020)

@Nermal al The solution to the power supply and the carbon crisis will, as eminent scientists and economists suggested, involve a battery of solutions - pun intended. The  creative reimagining needed to bring this about will involve  innovative energy conservation and supply  responses.  

 There is a gun pointed at our heads in the form of chaotic climate change, which may reach a point of no return - if it hasn't already.  A point where humanity, regardless of what it does, cannot stop it. It will entail massive economic, societal and political consequences, perhaps even war and unconstrained migration.  One thing for sure is, going on as we are isn't an option. The chickens are heading home to roost.


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## PGF2016 (15 Dec 2020)

Nermal said:


> I should have been more specific: decarbonising just electricity generation alone will make us significantly poorer, because we'll have to spend more to generate the same amount of power.


Significantly poorer? Everything I read and hear indicates the opposite. A quick Google brings up the following:








						Solar is now the 'cheapest electricity in history', report says - triple j
					

"I see solar becoming the new king of the world's electricity markets."




					www.abc.net.au
				








__





						Wind and solar plants will soon be cheaper than coal in all big markets around world, analysis finds | Renewable energy | The Guardian
					






					amp-theguardian-com.cdn.ampproject.org
				




"That’s the analysis of BloombergNEF, which predicts a tipping point in five years when it will be more expensive to operate an existing coal or natural gas power plant than to build new solar or wind farms." 

[broken link removed]


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## RedOnion (15 Dec 2020)

joe sod said:


> To say it's nothing to do with renewables is a denial of reality .


Firstly, I'm not an climate change activist that says we should be pushing for more renewables. But let's put this in context. Last week there was 1 Amber alert. It got attention because it happened just before a small peat powered plant got shutdown permanently. There were technical failures at 3 separate power plants, each one of those having a bigger capacity than the plants being decommissioned.

There were 21 Amber alerts during the course of 2006, when renewables made up a much smaller portion of our energy supply. They were primarily to do with technical failures in power stations, not wind.

There's nothing new about getting close to the edge. Just media cycles picking it up.


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## AlbacoreA (16 Dec 2020)

joe sod said:


> Of course it has to do with renewables, because our whole electricity supply policy is now based around wind power, it's supposed to supply 40% of our total generating capacity now, That is why we are closing the Midlands stations because of this 40% we are supposed to be getting from wind, it all looks great on paper and that's the problem. The reality is that 40% was not available when supply was critical. To say it's nothing to do with renewables is a denial of reality .
> 
> Yes we have had power cuts before but because of damage to the network , never because the grid was unable to meet supply, when that happens it is much more serious because then the grid can completely fail as happened in New York a decade ago as power stations are knocked out like dominoes as demand surges.



We didn't have a power cut due to the "grid"  this time either.

Since periods of low wind are expected. I assume they plan for this.
They also plan for multiple failures of conventional generation, since its probably not uncommon.
We've had these peaks before. So again predictable.

I can't really see how any of this was a surprise, and unplanned for.
or how we can blame it on renewable's that we weren't relying on anyway.



> Nov 6, 1999,
> 
> The crisis began at lunchtime, when it emerged that minor problems in up to six generating stations were causing a further 40 megawatts of power to be lost. A failed water-cooling pump at the Aghada generating station in Co Cork resulted in the loss of a further 150 megawatts.
> 
> ...











						Dark days of power cuts may make return
					

Hang on to your millennium candle - you may need it in the 21st century unless the ESB can come to grips with a power-generating…




					www.irishtimes.com


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## fidelcastro (16 Dec 2020)

losttheplot said:


> I thought the wind turbines could be powered by gas in the event there was no wind.


I concur. You've lost the plot on this thread I'm afraid,


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## Leo (17 Dec 2020)

rob oyle said:


> Data centres are the new opportunity for Ireland without the acknowledgement that they are massive electricity consumers.



That simply just isn't true, the power demands of data centers has been well know for decades. Do you think the likes of Amazon and Google would invest the sums they have been in developing data centres here on a vague hope the wind will continue to blow?


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## Leo (17 Dec 2020)

joe sod said:


> Of course it has to do with renewables, because our whole electricity supply policy is now based around wind power, it's supposed to supply 40% of our total generating capacity now,



Where to start. The 40% target is for all renewables, and is not a point in time measure. 



joe sod said:


> That is why we are closing the Midlands stations because of this 40% we are supposed to be getting from wind, it all looks great on paper and that's the problem. The reality is that 40% was not available when supply was critical. To say it's nothing to do with renewables is a denial of reality .



It does look great on paper, I suspect you haven't read it though! Have a read of the current Generation Capacity Statement and the Transmission Development Plan. You'll be amazed to find they understand the wind doesn't always blow at the desired speed.


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## rob oyle (17 Dec 2020)

Leo said:


> That simply just isn't true, the power demands of data centers has been well know for decades. Do you think the likes of Amazon and Google would invest the sums they have been in developing data centres here on a vague hope the wind will continue to blow?


Amazon and Google invest in data centres because it's one of the ways they grow their offerings/business/revenues. How they are powered is a secondary consideration for them, albeit they know how to get good PR for the heat waste from the centres: https://www.rte.ie/news/regional/2020/1214/1184348-amazon-heating/

And I was referring to political groupings, like the Green Party, which suggest at every turn that there are massive (job) opportunities in the likes of ICT and renewable energy ventures if we're only willing to make that step. Given the immediate need for climate action, energy rationing is likely to be part of what we'll need to do in the more immediate future, rather than dreaming that we can continue to consume as we do and still cut our emissions appropriately. That is the kind of lack of acknowledgement I meant.


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## joe sod (17 Dec 2020)

Leo said:


> Have a read of the current Generation Capacity Statement and the Transmission Development Plan. You'll be amazed to find they understand the wind doesn't always blow at the desired speed.


I had a read of some of that report , obviously its very detailed and very comprehensive, its not produced for joe public but for people who's job it is to read it and reference it when something goes wrong. The one thing that stood out for me was the term "dispatchable generation" which is important

"_Sources of electricity that can be used on demand and dispatched at the request of power grid operators, according to market needs. Does not include wind and solar generation which are nondispatchable generation. " _

So wind and solar can not be called upon when needed. Dispatchable generation is basically conventional generation including interconnectors , however the graph they produced of "dispatchable generation" is 10GW now and upto 2025 however this falls to 8GW in 2025 explained by the closure of Moneypoint. So obviously going to be a major problem when the critical supply problem that happened recently was because Moneypoint was knocked out.

Methinks they cannot close Moneypoint , its either power cuts or a new report.


----------



## Zenith63 (18 Dec 2020)

Joe do you genuinely feel you’ve spotted something so basic that all the professionals in EirGrid, who spend all day every day thinking about this stuff have not realised and considered?  I’m not saying these organisations never make mistakes, but there’s no history of it in this space and this stuff is just simple math, there’s no subjectivity to it.


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## Leo (18 Dec 2020)

rob oyle said:


> Amazon and Google invest in data centres because it's one of the ways they grow their offerings/business/revenues. How they are powered is a secondary consideration for them, albeit they know how to get good PR for the heat waste from the centres:



It's  clear you've never been involved in an infrastructure project. Uptime is one of the foremost considerations in datacenter planning. Running a datacenter of the scale Amazon and Google are building on generator power is not cheap or viable for anything other than a rare and brief interruption. These companies do not chose a location without assurances on supply.


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## Leo (18 Dec 2020)

joe sod said:


> I had a read of some of that report , obviously its very detailed and very comprehensive, its not produced for joe public but for people who's job it is to read it and reference it when something goes wrong.



To say it's written for people to quote when something goes wrong is laughable, but it is clearly written for people who understand the topic. You're not the target audience.



joe sod said:


> however the graph they produced of "dispatchable generation" is 10GW now and upto 2025 however this falls to 8GW in 2025 explained by the closure of Moneypoint. So obviously going to be a major problem when the critical supply problem that happened recently was because Moneypoint was knocked out.



Can you explain why with the detail you have on supply mix and demand projections?


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## Sadim (18 Dec 2020)

horusd said:


> "This has nothing to do with renewables. The issue had always existed, and is the very reason that Turlogh Hill exists. The pumped hydro facility there has been operational since 1974! I recall hearing that it used to get called up during the ad break in Glenroe back in the late '80's as a million households turned on their kettle to make a cup of tea."@RedOnion.
> 
> I think this method featured on Eco-Eye specifically because the owners converted an open-style quarry and used wind energy to pump up the water in a kind of closed system. In effect, a number of birds were killed with one stone (apologies to bird lovers)  inasmuch as an unsightly quarry was repurposed and turned into a useful store of energy similar to Turlough hill.  I really like the idea of centralized control to manage the power supply. As a matter of interest, one of the Eco-eye docs  this year was from inside Eirgrid in D4.  As this is a huge issue going forward, it really needs to be tackled at many levels from micro to macro, including the big polluters of agri-business and personal transport etc.



Its gas really (no pun intended). We have a number of high carbon emitting sectors and they are absolved of all responsibility..... think agri, aviation, shipping. Instead the answer is to slap on carbon taxes on Joe Public to pay for everything. There should be some effort at "polluter pays". I read somewhere that the national dairy herd has expanded by 40% since 2010 since the dropping of milk quotas. 40% is a huge number. And its even worse, that expansion in dairy is purposed to make dairy powder for middle-class Chinese babies! Yet the rest of us will carry the emissions burden out of these commercial interests. At least with coal/peat it heated our homes etc but all I can see from the agri sector is ballooning commercial interests with taking commensurate responsibility for climate change??


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## Leo (18 Dec 2020)

Sadim said:


> And its even worse, that expansion in dairy is purposed to make dairy powder for middle-class Chinese babies!



The expansion is producer driven, and the co-op legacy means Glanbia (and perhaps others) are obliged to accept everything their producers send them. Finding markets for all that product has been a challenge.


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## rob oyle (18 Dec 2020)

Leo said:


> It's  clear you've never been involved in an infrastructure project. Uptime is one of the foremost considerations in datacenter planning. Running a datacenter of the scale Amazon and Google are building on generator power is not cheap or viable for anything other than a rare and brief interruption. These companies do not chose a location without assurances on supply.


Fair enough, that's their business case. It doesn't make any allowances for the influence of the data centres on the domestic electricity supply and this thread is not about the justification of data centres, but the record amount of energy we're using, several decades into a climate crisis.


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## rob oyle (18 Dec 2020)

Leo said:


> The expansion is producer driven, and the co-op legacy means Glanbia (and perhaps others) are obliged to accept everything their producers send them. Finding markets for all that product has been a challenge.


The expansion is industry driven, with the current strategy agreed by a committee of 35 stakeholders from the agri-food sector. Glanbia et al, as private companies, have no obligations to purchase dairy output from Irish farmers and it is only through the largesse of successive Governments here that the ill-conceived promotion of Irish dairy in Asia occurs.


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## joe sod (18 Dec 2020)

Leo said:


> Can you explain why with the detail you have on supply mix and demand projections?


From 2025 unless we build new power stations to replace the ones that we are shutting down like the peat and coal power stations we will not have enough supply except for the very low demand scenario,

_"Thereafter, some generation plant is assumed to shut down because of emissions restrictions and the EU Commissions Clean Energy Package. By 2026, a deficit of capacity is forecast in all scenarios except the Low Demand forecast. Adequacy studies results for Ireland are listed in Table 1. With a low availability scenario (worst year in 5 years), there would be a deficit of plant by 2026. If base-load high-carbon plant were unavailable from 2026 (e.g. two out of three peat units), this capacity would need to be replaced."_

All through the report you linked it points to deficits in supply after 2025 unless we build new power plants. This was written in 2018 and presumed the availability of moneypoint until 2025 which is now in doubt. Of course it uses technical jargon so as not to be so blunt "dispatchable generation" does not include wind and solar but this must be able to meet at least 100% of demand obviously . So even if we have 40% supply from renewables we must also have another 40% "dispatchable generation" in order to be availabe to "dispatch" when there is no wind.


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## Nermal (19 Dec 2020)

PGF2016 said:


> Significantly poorer? Everything I read and hear indicates the opposite.



The higher the fraction of our electricity we wish to consume from intermittent, cheap renewable sources, the more we have to spend on grid upgrades and storage. If we don't want to spend gargantuan amounts on storage, we have to spend on non-renewable back-up. By the time this is all accounted for, electricity is no longer cheap.

By the way, building all this infrastructure - again, just to decarbonise electricity generation alone, not food production or transport or any of that other stuff - is going to put out a giant 'burp' of carbon in itself. Now, you shouldn't be selfish and expect to use that power yourself - we'll be needing most of it to try to pull all that carbon back out of the atmosphere again...

Sorry, I meant to say ' vote for me and we'll all get rich insulating one another's houses'


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## jpd (19 Dec 2020)

De-carbonising was never going to be cheap - but so far, no politician has the courage to say that.

Instead we get fed tales of green this and green that - but most of it pie in the sky.

The era of cheap energy is over and gone for ever so we will just have to get used to the new norm and make the best of it.


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## Zenith63 (19 Dec 2020)

jpd said:


> De-carbonising was never going to be cheap - but so far, no politician has the courage to say that.
> 
> Instead we get fed tales of green this and green that - but most of it pie in the sky.
> 
> The era of cheap energy is over and gone for ever so we will just have to get used to the new norm and make the best of it.



The cost of solar panels, wind turbines and batteries have been plummeting for decades and this will continue as we manufacture more of each. I’d say we’re actually just entering a new era of cheap energy.


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## joe sod (20 Dec 2020)

Zenith63 said:


> The cost of solar panels, wind turbines and batteries have been plummeting for decades and this will continue as we manufacture more of each. I’d say we’re actually just entering a new era of cheap energy.


I presume you must have read  Enid blyton and liked the secret seven and famous five when you were young, they were great stories but unfortunately they do not exist in reality.
Because the cost of providing the backup is borne by the grid not by the wind and solar providers themselves its easy to say it's cheap, however if they were tasked with providing 40% power whether the wind blew or not and it was the responsibility of the renewables to provide the backup then we would know the true cost of renewables.


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## Zenith63 (20 Dec 2020)

joe sod said:


> I presume you must have read  Enid blyton and liked the secret seven and famous five when you were young, they were great stories but unfortunately they do not exist in reality.
> Because the cost of providing the backup is borne by the grid not by the wind and solar providers themselves its easy to say it's cheap, however if they were tasked with providing 40% power whether the wind blew or not and it was the responsibility of the renewables to provide the backup then we would know the true cost of renewables.


And yet the world’s scientists and energy experts agree with Enid and me.


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## joe sod (20 Dec 2020)

Zenith63 said:


> Joe do you genuinely feel you’ve spotted something so basic that all the professionals in EirGrid, who spend all day every day thinking about this stuff have not realised and considered?  I’m not saying these organisations never make mistakes, but there’s no history of it in this space and this stuff is just simple math, there’s no subjectivity to it.



Maybe I was too sarcastic in my last reply Zenith , thats the problem with some posters on this site they resort to glib one liners which I indulged in myself there. I agree Eirgrid and ESB are great organisations and have built up a formidable reputation, however I think energy supply has become deeply politicized now and there are other organisations involved in licencing power generators that have a very narrow focus that dont have to worry about continuity of supply. Therefore that problem is thrown back at the engineers and technicians in Eirgrid at the coalface luckily they coped this time. Obviously the situation that happened 2 weeks ago was not foreseen by the report produced by Eirgrid , that only pointed to problems happening after 2025. I think a major issue is that the routine maintenance at Moneypoint was delayed because of the Covid restrictions and the difficulty in getting the parts and experts in from overseas to do it.


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## Leo (21 Dec 2020)

rob oyle said:


> Fair enough, that's their business case. It doesn't make any allowances for the influence of the data centres on the domestic electricity supply and this thread is not about the justification of data centres, but the record amount of energy we're using, several decades into a climate crisis.



Not really clear what you're saying there. What doesn't 'make allowances for or the influence of the data centres on domestic electricity supply'?  That's Eirgrid's role and their planning and reports have been encompassing both for years.


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## Leo (21 Dec 2020)

rob oyle said:


> Glanbia et al, as private companies, have no obligations to purchase dairy output from Irish farmers and it is only through the largesse of successive Governments here that the ill-conceived promotion of Irish dairy in Asia occurs.



You clearly have no understanding of the structure of Glanbia and the influence and power that Glanbia Co-op have over the operation of the PLC. The Co-op (farmer owned) have majority control of the Dairy entity and set the rules. Any changes to rules such as the obligation to accept all milk supplied by their producers requires a 75% majority vote.


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## joe sod (21 Dec 2020)

another worrying report on newstalk business this evening about the looming energy crisis coming . We won't be able to rely on interconnectors to fill the energy  when the wind is not blowing like we thought we could because every country is cutting back their coal generating power stations to comply with the european regulations. At the same time the French nuclear reactors are coming to the end of their life cycle and are not being replaced with enough new generation to replace the old ones. Therefore every country is reducing its base loads conventional power stations so nobody is going to have loads of excess electricity to export when there is a very cold spell across the continent. I think Eirgrid will have to do  a new plan, as the 2018 one linked here has already been surpassed by events and is out of date now, the assumptions it relied are happening now rather than in 2025.


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## lledlledlled (23 Dec 2020)

joe sod said:


> another worrying report on newstalk business this evening about the looming energy crisis coming . We won't be able to rely on interconnectors to fill the energy  when the wind is not blowing like we thought we could because every country is cutting back their coal generating power stations to comply with the european regulations. At the same time the French nuclear reactors are coming to the end of their life cycle and are not being replaced with enough new generation to replace the old ones. Therefore every country is reducing its base loads conventional power stations so nobody is going to have loads of excess electricity to export when there is a very cold spell across the continent. I think Eirgrid will have to do  a new plan, as the 2018 one linked here has already been surpassed by events and is out of date now, the assumptions it relied are happening now rather than in 2025.



We build a small nuclear plant in Ireland and instantly get carbon-free energy security and become a net electricity exporter.


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## Purple (4 Jan 2021)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> Nuclear is extremely expensive. It has lots of climate and reliability advantages, but its proponents rarely mention the costs.


1950's Nuclear is expensive. There have been few new power plants commissioned since the 1980's and most of those were designed in the 60's. New Nuclear is clean, intrinsically safe and uses existing waste as a fuel. Unfortunately it is a political non starter.


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## fidelcastro (5 Jan 2021)

lledlledlled said:


> We build a small nuclear plant in Ireland and instantly get carbon-free energy security and become a net electricity exporter.


I think you need a min of two plants/reactors.


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## lledlledlled (5 Jan 2021)

fidelcastro said:


> I think you need a min of two plants/reactors.



Why so?


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## fidelcastro (6 Jan 2021)

lledlledlled said:


> Why so?


In case one is required to go offline.


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## joe sod (8 Jan 2021)

I see another amber alert in last few days from eirgrid, very cold weather, no wind, very high demand because of weather. They had to start up another generator at moneypoint to deal with it. It's looking obvious now that they can't close moneypoint, eamon Ryan either goes with green ideology and risk power cuts or gets real.


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## Eeyore (8 Jan 2021)

According to the article in yesterdays IT:-
_"Industry figures say that amber warnings are not “uncommon” but pointed out that yesterday’s alert followed another in December."_

I wonder just how often these amber alerts happen. They seem to be uncommon enough to merit an article in the paper each time they occur.


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## Zenith63 (8 Jan 2021)

Eeyore said:


> They seem to be uncommon enough to merit an article in the paper each time they occur.


I suspect the increase in attention is correlated to the movement to keep Moneypoint open.  The article shared here from December was mostly about job losses and the impact of the plant closing on locals, the amber alert was just the first couple of lines.


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## shweeney (8 Jan 2021)

Eirgrid must be reading this thread:
[broken link removed]


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## joe sod (9 Jan 2021)

Zenith63 said:


> I suspect the increase in attention is correlated to the movement to keep Moneypoint open.  The article shared here from December was mostly about job losses and the impact of the plant closing on locals, the amber alert was just the first couple of lines.











						Electricity shortage brought Ireland close to power cuts
					

Amber alert sent to power suppliers predicted ‘tight generation capacity margins’




					www.irishtimes.com
				



this is the article about last wednesdays orange alert.
I cant quote but will paraphrase,

_Orange alerts are not uncommon but this alert followed shortly after the alert in December and is a worrying trend. They argue that December's closure of two peat power stations in the midlands contributed to the problem. They would have produced 240Mw of electricity which would have underpinned supplies during the alert._

This is not about local concerns as this does not count with Eirgrid or Industry, in fact the concern is that Ireland will be seen as an unreliable electricity supplier to the big Pharma and IT industries here if we continue to have these orange alerts. The hard reality of power and energy is pushing up against ideology and government tokenism.


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## Zenith63 (9 Jan 2021)

joe sod said:


> ... in fact the concern is that Ireland will be seen as an unreliable electricity supplier to the big Pharma and IT industries here if we continue to have these orange alerts. The hard reality of power and energy is pushing up against ideology and government tokenism.


One of the biggest consumers of that pharma/IT ilk is Amazon, who have committed to 100% renewable energy and are actively investing in solar and wind farm in Ireland. Might suggest they are not quite so concerned?


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## joe sod (5 Apr 2021)

The irish academy of engineers have issued a report on the security of the irish electricity network upto 2030.  In their opinion we will need to increase the gas generating capacity and build new power stations in order to maintain the reliability of the grid. They also warned about the wisdom of not looking for new gas supplies off the irish coast as we will be highly dependant on russian gas as the UK gas supplies will also be gone by 2030. here is an excerpt 


*Conclusions and Recommendations*
_In order to maintain normal reliability standards while replacing coal, oil and peat generation, Ireland will require significant gas fired generation capacity for the next two decades. The gas turbine generation capacity required in 2030 is likely to increase from today, but annual gas consumption will probably reduce as generating units will operate with lower load factors, but peak gas demand, for power generation will be significantly higher than today. Power system reliability is therefore critically dependent on secure primary energy supplies (Natural Gas) to the Island of Ireland.

Power system reliability becomes an Energy Security issue.

There is universal agreement that long term decarbonisation of the planet’s energy systems requires a major shift to electricity as an energy vector. Ireland has targeted nine hundred thousand Electric Vehicles (EVs) on the road by 2030 as well as six hundred thousand domestic heat pumps. In this context, a failure of the power system would have a catastrophic effect on normal economic life.
_


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## Purple (6 Apr 2021)

At least we are consistent; we export our environmental pollution by preventing the production of dirty products here but still import them from abroad. Now we have a long term strategy to enable a police state which actively seeks to damage our interests and undermine out freedoms.


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## fidelcastro (6 Apr 2021)

Purple said:


> At least we are consistent; we export our environmental pollution by preventing the production of dirty products here but still import them from abroad. Now we have a long term strategy to enable a police state which actively seeks to damage our interests and undermine out freedoms.


Yes, we're really treated like Uyghurs here. NOT.


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## Purple (6 Apr 2021)

fidelcastro said:


> Yes, we're really treated like Uyghurs here. NOT.


What?

I'm talking about giving Russia a strategic lever which it can use to control EU foreign policy. We are overwhelmingly reliant on them for our supply of natural gas and have adopted policies which only strengthens their position.
There's no environmental value of stopping the search for hydrocarbons  within our territorial waters if we continue to burn imported hydrocarbons. There is considerable geopolitical  damage when our primary source for those hydrocarbons is a police state which actively seeks to damage us.
I take from your username that you have some sympathy for dictators but I'm a fan of free democracies.


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## Zenith63 (6 Apr 2021)

Purple said:


> What?
> 
> I'm talking about giving Russia a strategic level which it can use to control EU foreign policy. We are overwhelmingly reliant on them for our supply of natural gas and have adopted policies which only strengthens their position.
> There's no environmental value of stopping the search for hydrocarbons  within our territorial waters if we continue to burn imported hydrocarbons. There is considerable geopolitical  damage when our primary source for those hydrocarbons is a police state which actively seeks to damage us.
> I take from your username that you have some sympathy for dictators but I'm a fan of free democracies.


I think fidelcastro may have misread your original post the same way I did.  I thought you were implying Ireland was becoming a police state (lockdowns, mandatory quarantine etc), it's a common narrative in the press at the moment.  Makes a lot more sense now and I fully agree with you!


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## fidelcastro (6 Apr 2021)

Zenith63 said:


> I think fidelcastro may have misread your original post the same way I did.  I thought you were implying Ireland was becoming a police state (lockdowns, mandatory quarantine etc), it's a common narrative in the press at the moment.  Makes a lot more sense now and I fully agree with you!


Purple, excellent post. I misread your intent same as Zenith..!
No sympathy for dictatorships but also against hard core capitalism aswell. For  common sense social justice economics as practiced/ impremented by  wealthiest countries of the world viz : nordics..


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## joe sod (1 Jul 2021)

I see the eirgrid warnings on shortages were very real last winter they were lucky to get away without power cuts. Now they have got permission from the government to install emergency generators in Dublin to cope with shortages next winter as demand is increasing rapidly but not continuous 24hrs supply. Calls into question the decision to prematurely shut down the Midlands power stations when they still had another decade of life in them. Those emergency generators will be burning diesel much more inefficiently than a dedicated power station.


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## Purple (1 Jul 2021)

joe sod said:


> Those emergency generators will be burning diesel much more inefficiently than a dedicated power station.


But they won't be burning bog land, amongst the best Carbon sinks in the world.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (1 Jul 2021)

I am still puzzled to how electricity consumption only fell 0.4% last year despite cinemas, pubs, sports facilities, restaurants, offices, etc closed for a large part of the year. One can only assume that domestic consumption fully offset the reduction in the service sector.

The eirgrid data tell you a lot about supply but not about where demand is.


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## joe sod (1 Jul 2021)

So are Saudi Arabian oil and gas fields, they have stored up carbon and energy from millions of years of sunshine. In comparison.to what China and India are going to pump into the atmosphere the Midlands power stations were negligible. We shut them down without having a replacement and still with millions of euros of infrastructure investment wasted. Decisions were made because of wrong headed environmental dogma rather than realistic practical concerns


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## Zenith63 (1 Jul 2021)

joe sod said:


> So are Saudi Arabian oil and gas fields, they have stored up carbon and energy from millions of years of sunshine.


Bogs are actively sequestering additional CO2, oil/gas fields are not.  Bogs are a big part of our biodiversity, oil/gas fields are not.  Peat is an exceptionally dirty fuel to burn compared to oil/gas, both in-terms of CO2 but also other pollutants which are realistically much more dangerous to us in our lifetimes (unlike CO2 which we're really trying to control on behalf of future generations).

Unless I start seeing blackouts I will trust that EirGrid have taken considered risks to drive us towards a cleaner future, we have a long way to go and years of inaction have us starting in a worse place than many peer countries.


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## Purple (1 Jul 2021)

joe sod said:


> Decisions were made because of wrong headed environmental dogma rather than realistic practical concerns


The decision was made to keep them open for as long as they were running because of wrong headed  dogma rather than realistic practical concerns. We should have stopped cutting or burning our bogs 30 years ago. Stupid mutton-headed knuckle-dragging mouth-breathers who ignore science and the real issues were the empty vessels making all the local noise and, given the gombeen nature of Irish politics, those people were listened to.


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## joe sod (4 Jul 2021)

Purple said:


> Stupid mutton-headed knuckle-dragging mouth-breathers who ignore science and the real issues were the empty vessels making all the local noise and, given the gombeen nature of Irish politics, those people were listened to.


maybe you are correct but thats an overall observation of irish politics its not unique to turf cutting and using peat to generate electricity. In any case those gombeens are gone and have now been replaced by the modern version in the green party. The fact is that in the Eirgrid plan those stations were to be operated until 2025 until replacement generation like gas could be brought online.

 However they were refused planning permission to continue until then, when exactly did the planning authority get permission to stop an already existing generating station that now turns out to be in critical need? Now the government are to pass emergency legislation to bypass those very planning laws in order to install emergency generators in Dublin, it is so critical that the government needs them in place by November

_"To facilitate the coalition, is steering a legislation through the Dail so that emergency generators can bypass planning laws. "_

an extract from the irish times article. So they are now going to bypass planning laws in order to get these up and running, would it not have been simpler just to rescind the power of the planning authorities in the case of the midlands generating stations until replacements were ready. Whats the difference ? thats the real gombeen politics and its alive and well and living in Dublin4 not Ballygobackwards


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## Leo (5 Jul 2021)

joe sod said:


> However they were refused planning permission to continue until then, when exactly did the planning authority get permission to stop an already existing generating station that now turns out to be in critical need?


If they were refused permission then they must have applied right? It would follow that conditions applied to previous grants stipulated some limitation they were applying to have altered. It's all online, why not look it up?


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## Purple (5 Jul 2021)

joe sod said:


> would it not have been simpler just to rescind the power of the planning authorities in the case of the midlands generating stations until replacements were ready. Whats the difference ?


From an environmental perspective the generators are better. Burning Peat is like burning Rainforest.


joe sod said:


> thats the real gombeen politics and its alive and well and living in Dublin4 not Ballygobackwards


I do agree that there is a fundamental lack of planning on this issue but that's not unique. In fact it is ubiquitous. I'm not sure how many politicians or employees in the Departments concerned live in D4 though.


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## joe sod (5 Jul 2021)

Leo said:


> If they were refused permission then they must have applied right? It would follow that conditions applied to previous grants stipulated some limitation they were applying to have altered. It's all online, why not look it up?


Yes they had to apply and were refused by an bord planeala to burn biomass, in fact they were forced to decommission the plant as well even though barely half way through its lifespan, the option to use other fuels and keep it in operation was also taken away. That was stupid and gombeen politics when barely a year later we are facing critical shortages in power.
I raised this issue about eirgrid facing critical shortages last winter and this was rubbished by some posters on this site and it was ignored by the media. Now it turns out to have been a very serious situation which explains why the government are now rushing to get these generators installed before next winter.
I predict they will not be able to get these installed by winter and will have to resort to diesel generators. I'm sure the unfortunate residents in Dublin would prefer to have this power generated down the country rather than beside them by noisy generators


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## PMU (5 Jul 2021)

joe sod said:


> In comparison.to what China and India are going to pump into the atmosphere the Midlands power stations were negligible. We shut them down without having a replacement and still with millions of euros of infrastructure investment wasted. Decisions were made because of wrong headed environmental dogma rather than realistic practical concerns


Seriously, is this even a major issue for Ireland? According to the European Environmental Agency Ireland produces 60,744 kilotonnes C02 equivalent greenhouse gas emissions https://www.europarl.europa.eu/reso...0191015PHT64308/20191015PHT64308_original.jpg.  This is 1.41% of total EU greenhouse gas emissions.  Relative to other countries we don't really pollute at all.  The risk here is that Ireland will accept  EU controls more appropriate for the high polluting countries and  in doing so will place this country at a relative competititve disadvantage.


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## Zenith63 (5 Jul 2021)

PMU said:


> Seriously, is this even a major issue for Ireland? According to the European Environmental Agency Ireland produces 60,744 kilotonnes C02 equivalent greenhouse gas emissions https://www.europarl.europa.eu/reso...0191015PHT64308/20191015PHT64308_original.jpg.  This is 1.41% of total EU greenhouse gas emissions.  Relative to other countries we don't really pollute at all.  The risk here is that Ireland will accept  EU controls more appropriate for the high polluting countries and  in doing so will place this country at a relative competititve disadvantage.



"Ireland had the third highest emissions of greenhouse gases per capita in the EU in 2015 at 13.2 tonnes of carbon dioxide equivalent per capita. Ireland’s emissions were 50% higher than the EU average of 8.8 tonnes. Estonia and Luxembourg had the highest levels of CO2 emissions per capita in 2015 at 13.8 and 20.4 tonnes respectively."  (https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-eii/eii18/greenhousegasesandclimatechange/)

I think those bigger countries might feel a bit aggrieved that they put so much money/effort into getting their per capita emissions down (much more relevant than per country numbers) while Ireland spent money on ??? but are now asking them to bear our burden.  To be honest if the EU were allowing some smaller countries to opt out, not sure why they'd choose one of the worst per-capita polluters.


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## joe sod (5 Jul 2021)

PMU said:


> This is 1.41% of total EU greenhouse gas emissions. Relative to other countries we don't really pollute at all.


And even this figure is exaggerated because of the unfair way carbon from agriculture is calculated. Because we have a relatively small population and a relatively large agricultural output , we are in effect producing g food for the UK and Germany but we get levelled with the CO2 rather than UK or Germany. The fact is that if we cut back our agricultural output because of CO2 levies somebody else is still going to have to produce that food because brits and Germans still need to eat. Of course we could reduce our per capita CO2 levels by dramatically increasing our population, there is no CO2 penalty for that.


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## Zenith63 (5 Jul 2021)

joe sod said:


> The fact is that if we cut back our agricultural output because of CO2 levies somebody else is still going to have to produce that food because brits and Germans still need to eat.


A certain amount of that would happen yes, but Ireland does significant work around the world to induce demand for our agricultural outputs like milk/beef/pork.  There's a fairly strong argument that there are people in other countries swapping from more vegetable/local based diets to high CO2 output diets including milk/beef/pork from countries like Ireland.

However I agree with you that if the agri emissions that would simply shift to other EU countries can be identified, it is unfair that Ireland should have these added to our total.


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## Purple (6 Jul 2021)

Zenith63 said:


> A certain amount of that would happen yes, but Ireland does significant work around the world to induce demand for our agricultural outputs like milk/beef/pork.  There's a fairly strong argument that there are people in other countries swapping from more vegetable/local based diets to high CO2 output diets including milk/beef/pork from countries like Ireland.
> 
> However I agree with you that if the agri emissions that would simply shift to other EU countries can be identified, it is unfair that Ireland should have these added to our total.


Beef production would continue to shift to South America. The net environmental impact would be greater. If we aren't going to reduce our red meat consumption then the best thing the EU could do is reduce its environmental standards and increase food production. As things stand we have simply outsourced our pollution to parts of the world which are outside temperate zones and so the environmental impact per calorie is far greater. Bear in mind that it takes 15,415 litres of water to produce a kilo of beef. It rains more here than in Brazilian prairies  or the Pampas.


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## kinnjohn (7 Jul 2021)

Purple said:


> Stupid mutton-headed knuckle-dragging mouth-breathers who ignore science and the real issues were the empty vessels making all the local noise and, given the gombeen nature of Irish politics, those people were listened to.


I suspect you are correct, but they are no longer down the Country
I will be sitting by a lovely turf fire this winter after I plug my EV into the national grid,
tripping in a diesel generator up in Dublin,


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## Purple (7 Jul 2021)

kinnjohn said:


> I suspect you are correct, but they are no longer down the Country
> I will be sitting by a lovely turf fire this winter after I plug my EV into the national grid,
> tripping in a diesel generator up in Dublin,


Would you prefer a Turf fire and Turf powered car? Because previously that's what you had.


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## Purple (7 Jul 2021)

At some stage over the next decade or two I hope that the world will embrace clean nuclear technology. When that happens we'll have a green energy source which is actually sustainable and a viable alternative to burning hydrocarbons.


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## kinnjohn (7 Jul 2021)

I like the turf fire, 
I like the idea I can say I had a turf powered car now running on diesel, and solar panels,


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## kinnjohn (7 Jul 2021)

Purple said:


> At some stage over the next decade or two I hope that the world will embrace clean nuclear technology. When that happens we'll have a green energy source which is actually sustainable and a viable alternative to burning hydrocarbons.


I am old enough to remember the proposal to build a plant back around 1970,
The anti-nuclear lobby was a Dublin based group I can still remember some of the people involved right up until
  Electrical regulation act 1999 when nuclear power generation was banned in Ireland,
You can check which TDs and parties voted for it, online,

Check it out and see do you recognize any of the stupid mutton headed knuckle-dragging mouth breathers gombeens  you posted about
who still vote for TDs and parties who were in favor of the ban on nuclear power,
I think the leader of the  Government who brought in the act was a Dubliner,


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## Purple (7 Jul 2021)

kinnjohn said:


> I am old enough to remember the proposal to build a plant back around 1970,
> The anti-nuclear lobby was a Dublin based group I can still remember some of the people involved right up until
> Electrical regulation act 1999 when nuclear power generation was banned in Ireland,
> You can check which TDs and parties voted for it, online,
> ...


I wouldn't be a fan of building plants which were designed before computers were invented, like the one in Chernobyl or the old one in Windscale, but things have moved on in the last 70 years. If we were all flying around in planes which were designed in the 1950's there'd be crashes every day. 
I agree that there's no shortage of mutton-heads around the place.


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## joe sod (7 Jul 2021)

kinnjohn said:


> I suspect you are correct, but they are no longer down the Country


I think that's the key point we have always had the a few rural "gombeen" politicians in the dail however there are very few of these guys left and the few that are left have no power. However gombeen politics is even stronger now than ever where narrow self interest and electoral calculations trump everything else. However an even bigger issue is the government hiving off major decisions to NGOs who themselves have narrow interests and do not bear any responsibilities for the consequences of the decisions they make. The decision to prematurely close the Midlands power stations is a classic example of that.


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## kinnjohn (7 Jul 2021)

Purple said:


> I wouldn't be a fan of building plants which were designed before computers were invented, like the one in Chernobyl or the old one in Windscale, but things have moved on in the last 70 years. If we were all flying around in planes which were designed in the 1950's there'd be crashes every day.
> I agree that there's no shortage of mutton-heads around the place.


Was there no computers in Dublin In 1999 when the banned  nuclear power generation in Ireland,

I did say the same anti-nuclear people involved in 1970 were still involved in getting it banned in 1999 in my post,

It is very interesting to go online and see who the TDs were who voted for it,

Believe it or not, your argument is not new it was put forward what they were banning was cleaner than the existing power generation plants, but they still went ahead and banned nuclear generation in Ireland,
nothing got to do with pressure from TDs from turf powered generation areas, 

only a real wet behind the ears gombeen would buy your version of events leading up to the temporary diesel generators been installed in Dublin,
But Then We Never See Our Own  Faults Easier To See Them In Someone Else,


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## Purple (7 Jul 2021)

kinnjohn said:


> Was there no computers in Dublin In 1999 when the banned  nuclear power generation in Ireland,


No. Where did I suggest that?


kinnjohn said:


> I did say the same anti-nuclear people involved in 1970 were still involved in getting it banned in 1999 in my post,


I know. I said that I wasn't a fan of the plant in  Chernobyl or the old one in Windscale which were designed before computers were around.


kinnjohn said:


> It is very interesting to go online and see who the TDs were who voted for it,


I'm sure it is.


kinnjohn said:


> Believe it or not, the argument was being put forward that what they were banning was cleaner than the existing power generation plants,


Plants that were designed in the 90's are cleaner than turf and diesel powered plants.
Travelling Wave Reactors are intrinsically safe and consume existing nuclear waste as a power source. That is the new technology I was referring to.


kinnjohn said:


> only a real wet behind the ears gombeen would buy your version of events leading up to the temporary diesel generators been installed in Dublin,


So what do you think my version of events is?



kinnjohn said:


> But Then We Never See Our Own  Faults Easier To See Them In Someone Else,


Indeed.

For the record I think that the plants in the midlands should have been upgraded to or replaced with waste incinerator power stations. I also think the Incinerator should have been built in Dublin.
If built properly they pose a very low risk to the public or the environment.


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## kinnjohn (7 Jul 2021)

Purple said:


> So what do you think my version of events is?


A reconfiguration of the anti-nuclear lobby train of thought from a different angle,


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## Purple (7 Jul 2021)

kinnjohn said:


> A reconfiguration of the anti-nuclear lobby train of thought from a different angle,


I don't know what you mean by that.
I'm pro-Nuclear. 
I'm against burning our Bogs. If we has forests I'd be against burning them too. Both are excellent Carbon sinks but bogs are better.


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## kinnjohn (7 Jul 2021)

the question is would you or have you vote for a party or TDs who supported the nuclear ban on power generation in Ireland,
When they come knocking on your door do you tell them to come back when they vote to remove the ban on nuclear generation,


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## Purple (7 Jul 2021)

kinnjohn said:


> the question is would you or have you vote for a party or TDs who supported the nuclear ban on power generation in Ireland,
> When they come knocking on your door do you tell them to come back when they vote to remove the ban on nuclear generation,


Why does that matter?
No party will have the courage to take the issue on until we are forced to do so by the inevitable shortcomings which are emerging in our current strategy becoming impossible to ignore.  
the first thing that has to happen is that TerraPower build their Travelling Wave Reactor in China, as was the plan before Trump banned the sharing of Nuclear Technology with China. There's no way we'll ever be brave enough to embrace new technology like that first.


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## kinnjohn (7 Jul 2021)

Purple said:


> Why does that matter?



no point in calling people stupid mutton headed  knuckle-dragging mouth breathing gombeens and then say why does it matter, what our politicians stand for,
I can see why the gombeen is alive and well in your neck of the woods,
just look at all the NIMBY pressure groups that spring up in Dublin in relation to planning applications,
and all the politicians from all parties genuflecting in front of them gombeens to the bone,


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## Purple (7 Jul 2021)

kinnjohn said:


> no point in calling people stupid mutton headed  knuckle-dragging mouth breathing gombeens and then say why does not matter, what our politicians stand for,
> I can see why the gombeen is alive and well in your neck of the woods,
> just look at all the NIMBG pressure groups that spring up in Dublin in relation to planning applications,
> and all the politicians from all parties genuflecting in front of them gombeens to the bone,


There's no shortage of  stupid mutton headed  knuckle-dragging mouth breathing gombeens anywhere in the country. The planning objections in Dublin is an excellent example. The trouble is that gonbeens elect their own. 
The grown-ups in the EU will eventually force us to face reality.


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## joe sod (7 Jul 2021)

Purple said:


> For the record I think that the plants in the midlands should have been upgraded to or replaced with waste incinerator power stations. I also think the Incinerator should have been built in Dublin.
> If built properly they pose a very low risk to the public or the environment


That's what should have happened, but it was also included in the decision that the power plants had to be dismantled, extraordinary. Shannonbridge was only a decade old, anecdotally the generators were shipped to China where they will more than likely be powered by coal. Surely if eirgrid say that the station is critical for power supply in the immediate future that should trump the planning authority.


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## Purple (7 Jul 2021)

joe sod said:


> That's what should have happened, but it was also included in the decision that the power plants had to be dismantled, extraordinary. Shannonbridge was only a decade old, anecdotally the generators were shipped to China where they will more than likely be powered by coal. Surely if eirgrid say that the station is critical for power supply in the immediate future that should trump the planning authority.


Or converted it to coal. Anything but peat.


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## kinnjohn (7 Jul 2021)

Purple said:


> There's no shortage of  stupid mutton headed  knuckle-dragging mouth breathing gombeens anywhere in the country. The planning objections in Dublin is an excellent example. The trouble is that gonbeens elect their own.
> The grown-ups in the EU will eventually force us to face reality.


The trouble is the gombeens are getting votes and a free pass when they call to the doors of people who know the score like your good self, why should they change,
The trouble with watered-down planning in favour of NIMBY is once the building goes up we have lost the opportunity to build homes putting as little pressure on the environment as possible,

no point in closing turf power stations in the midlands and due to gombeen planning in Dublin and surrounding  areas, forcing the building of homes in the midlands  burning up energy travelling to and from work in Dublin,


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## kinnjohn (7 Jul 2021)

Purple said:


> Or converted it to coal. Anything but peat.


They had just finished the upgrade in Lansbouragh a few months when they closed it, in fact, the upgrade was still going on when word came through,


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## Purple (7 Jul 2021)

kinnjohn said:


> The trouble is the gombeens are getting votes and a free pass when they call to the doors of people who know the score like your good self, why should they change,
> The trouble with watered-down planning in favour of NIMBY is once the building goes up we have lost the opportunity to build homes putting as little pressure on the environment as possible,


Politicians fear the easily lead in the same way they fear the Twitterate. 


kinnjohn said:


> no point in closing turf power stations in the midlands and due to gombeen planning in Dublin and surrounding  areas, forcing the building of homes in the midlands  burning up energy travelling to and from work in Dublin,


There's no link between the two. We never should have industrialised the burning of our bogs.


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## Purple (7 Jul 2021)

kinnjohn said:


> They had just finished the upgrade in Lansbouragh a few months when they closed it, in fact, the upgrade was still going on when word came through,


What, they'd upgraded it to burn coal?


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## kinnjohn (7 Jul 2021)

no, they upgraded it to burn peat, the writing was already on the wall people knew and accepted peat burning was coming to an end, there was no big outcry like you have in Dublin over planning, no gombeen politicians genuflecting and tipping their hat in Lanesbouragh,
they are more amused than anything else hearing about the diesel generators in Dublin,


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## kinnjohn (7 Jul 2021)

Purple said:


> Politicians fear the easily lead in the same way they fear the Twitterate.
> 
> There's no link between the two. We never should have industrialised the burning of our bogs.


there is a link between the two
burning fuel unnecessarily putting pressure on the environment because of gombeen Dublin politicians,


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## Purple (7 Jul 2021)

kinnjohn said:


> no, they upgraded it to burn peat, the writing was already on the wall people knew and accepted peat burning was coming to an end, there was no big outcry like you have in Dublin over planning, no gombeen politicians genuflecting and tipping their hat in Lanesbouragh,
> they are more amused than anything else hearing about the diesel generators in Dublin,


Sure why would there be, us lot in Dublin were paying for it either way


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## kinnjohn (7 Jul 2021)

Purple said:


> Sure why would there be, us lot in Dublin were paying for it either way


Us lot in Dublin think gombeen men are down the country,
Sure we down the country knew a long long long time ago ye don't mind paying they trick is to make ye feel better and smarter,
We enjoy a good laugh at the real gombeen men being taken to the cleaners,
speaking about cleaners I am just after remembering
 I need to get the chimney cleaned for the winter,
sorry,I have to go now,


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## Purple (7 Jul 2021)

kinnjohn said:


> Us lot in Dublin think gombeen men are down the country,
> Sure we down the country knew a long long long time ago ye don't mind paying they trick is to make ye feel better and smarter,
> We enjoy a good laugh at the real gombeen men being taken to the cleaners,
> speaking about cleaners I am just after remembering
> ...


It seems we aren't as insecure about being called bombeens though and be nice to Dubliners; 6 of your brothers and sisters probably live here.


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## kinnjohn (7 Jul 2021)

Purple said:


> It seems we aren't as insecure about being called bombeens though and be nice to Dubliners; 6 of your brothers and sisters probably live here.



jackeens,
you are 100% correct they went up to Dublin with their eyes wide open picked the currants out of the cake,

while the Dublin gombeen politician genuflected and tipped their cap at the NIMBY resulting in the real Dubliners
having to move to Westmeath Offaly Longford and now are burning turf again,


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## Purple (7 Jul 2021)

kinnjohn said:


> you are 100% correct they went up to Dublin with their eyes wide open picked the currants out of the cake,
> 
> while the Dublin gombeen politician genuflected and tipped their cap at the NIMBY resulting in the real Dubliners
> having to move to Westmeath Offaly Longford and now are burning turf again,


Okay, that was fun and all but I'd like to talk to the grown-ups again.


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## joe sod (7 Jul 2021)

kinnjohn said:


> no, they upgraded it to burn peat, the writing was already on the wall people knew and accepted peat burning was coming to an end, there was no big outcry like you have in Dublin over planning, no gombeen politicians genuflecting and tipping their hat in Lanesbouragh,
> they are more amused than anything else hearing about the diesel generators in Dublin,


But why would they upgrade the power station if they knew it was going to be refused permission to continue ? The plan was to continue these until at least 2025. My understanding is that the planning decision was a complete surprise, any competent government would deem these critical infrastructure and exclude them from the requirement for planning permission. The planning authority should never have been involved in the first place , what happens if they refuse Moneypoint permission to continue ? Zimbabwe situation
Strangely the media are very quite on the whole shambles aswell they barely reported that last December  Eirgrid experienced 2 amber warning alerts


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## kinnjohn (7 Jul 2021)

you are correct joe

The other point I was making was people working there expected it to close in four or five years,
No gombeen politicians trying to keep it open any longer,I am sure they got a few euros from you know who,
because of the way the closure came about there is still lots of work before it all gets finished,


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