# Timing Chain instead of Timing Belt?



## Nomad1 (14 Jun 2007)

Hi There,

I believe there is such a thing as a timing chain that doesnt need to be changed instead of having a timing belt in a car.  Is this so?  Surely this would be a big advantage in buying a secondhand car?

If it is then are there certain makes of cars that they are in  or are they in older cars......

Thanks
Nomad1


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## CCOVICH (14 Jun 2007)

It varies among manufactuer as far as I know.


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## hotbot (15 Jun 2007)

Timing chains aren't ony many cars now yes do have advantages in that they normally last the life time of the vehicle but they can give trouble. C
From memory cars which have chains include Mercedes, BMW and Nissin (Almera & Primera had chains don't know about Qashqui or Jeep range) hope this helps. Hope this helps


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## Caveat (15 Jun 2007)

Really does vary a lot according to manufacturer - some makers switched from belts to chains on some models only - and some even switched back to belts again.  Chains are more common I think on smaller cars e.g. Fiesta, Micra etc - but it's not a rule.

www.honestjohn.co.uk  under the car by car breakdown section usually makes reference as to whether car is belt or chain.

Chains _should _last the lifetime of the car and in general are certainly less problematic than belts re potential engine damage and costs - but are not problem free either...


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## derryman (15 Jun 2007)

My 2006 diesel pathfinder is chain driven, my 1999 petrol primera is chain driven - can't understand why people buy belt drive engines - stupid really


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## Guest112 (15 Jun 2007)

A little story.....................

Last year I bought a 1993 LHD BMW 530 in excellent condition and 90000 miles.

I bought it in UK and wanted to drive it in Finland during the summer. I was conscious when buying it that it was a 'chain' and this suited me as I didnt want to take a chance with 'belt' cars of this age.

After 300 - 400 miles of amazing performance, the car suddenly retired on the motorway one morning with a type of "whoshhhh" sound. The chain had broken.

Roll on a few weeks, I sourced a second hand engine and had a mechanic installing it. I stuck my head under the bonnet and asked the mechanic if he could check the chain while he was installing the replacement engine.
He stopped working and in his slightly broken English he said "What for, These chains never break"

Moral of the story : "Chains and belts can break but everyone will tell you that chains don't break"


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## CCOVICH (15 Jun 2007)

derryman said:


> My 2006 diesel pathfinder is chain driven, my 1999 petrol primera is chain driven - can't understand why people buy belt drive engines - stupid really


 

Not everyone wants a Nissan?

If you care for a belt engine correctly, there is no reason why it shouldn't be ok, e.g. on a Alfa 147 the belt should be changed every 32k miles.


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## Pique318 (15 Jun 2007)

APHRODITE said:


> Moral of the story : "Chains and belts can break but everyone will tell you that chains don't break"


 
You were unlucky really.

Generally speaking, chains 'shouldn't' break but belts 'will' !

My current and previous car both have over 100,000 miles and all that the chain needed was a new tensioner to stop the thing rattling on lift-off.

But, the Titanic sank and chains 'can' break.


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## aircobra19 (15 Jun 2007)

APHRODITE said:


> ...
> Moral of the story : "Chains and belts can break but everyone will tell you that chains don't break"



Thats not the whole story. Chains break far less often. But can get noisy. 

Thats the trade off AFAIK.


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## Caveat (15 Jun 2007)

CCOVICH said:


> If you care for a belt engine correctly, there is no reason why it shouldn't be ok, e.g. on a Alfa 147 the belt should be changed every 32k miles.


 
This is the key of course...there have been problems on certain models with belts not lasting as long as they should - and some manufacturers have consequently revised their recommended belt change interval.

If you know what the interval is for your own car, have checked that there aren't any issues with early failure, and replace a few thousand miles _before_ it's due - well, you'd be very unlucky to break a timing belt mid journey.  With this in mind, I wouldn't use the belt or chain issue as a deciding factor in buying a car.


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## derryman (15 Jun 2007)

CCOVICH said:


> Not everyone wants a Nissan?
> 
> If you care for a belt engine correctly, there is no reason why it shouldn't be ok, e.g. on a Alfa 147 the belt should be changed every 32k miles.


 
and not everyone wants the expense of a 32k miles belt change - what is that at an Alfa dealership 500 - 1000€ - friend of mine had an alfa gtv - engine needs to be removed every 40k miles for belt change - 2000€ plus.

Chains loosen first - get rattly as people mention - regular oil changes help - suspect that BMW was not getting oil changes < 9k miles or annually - did it have a service reocrd with 14 annual services~??

primera from new - 8 years 80k miles - zero defects so far (touch wood)


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## CCOVICH (15 Jun 2007)

Alfas are probably worse than other cars (the recommendation was originally 72k miles for the 147, but this was revised when problems surfaced), but It really depends on your mileage of course-I do around 5k miles a year, so I can handle €500-€1000 every 6 years.


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## Caveat (15 Jun 2007)

Related to this, how do you know if the belt has been changed other than going on the previous owner's 'say so'? This I suppose is especially relevant when buying privately.

As I understand it, it can involve a fair bit of dismantling to even _see _the timing belt - if you are not mechanically minded how do you know if it has been changed?


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## CCOVICH (15 Jun 2007)

Caveat said:


> Related to this, how do you know if the belt has been changed other than going on the previous owner's 'say so'? This I suppose is especially relevant when buying privately.
> 
> As I understand it, it can involve a fair bit of dismantling to even _see _the timing belt - if you are not mechanically minded how do you know if it has been changed?


 

If there is no service history, you should be wary.  

You are correct (as far as an Alfa 147 is concerned) as far as dismantling the engine is concerned.

Alternatively, tell the seller to knock €500 off the asking price as you want to replace the belt.


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## Guest127 (16 Jun 2007)

Corollas have chains. again informed by main dealer that it wouln't need looking at before 100,000 miles and even then.....
don't forget about idling in traffic too. ie if your motor has say 30,000 miles on the clock in a rural area the chances are you havn't been stopped in traffic for long periods, however if you are stopped for long periods on a daily basis ie M50 then the belt might have the equivelant of 40,000 miles wear. something to look out for.


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## RS2K (19 Jun 2007)

A major negative in the use of timing chains as opposed to belts is the issue of noise and refinement.

Chains are much noisier.


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## aircobra19 (19 Jun 2007)

RS2K said:


> A major negative in the use of timing chains as opposed to belts is the issue of noise and refinement.
> 
> Chains are much noisier.



Have to say I haven't noticed any difference in noise, with one car at 50k and the other at 80k both with timing belts compared to other cars in the family with  belts.


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## Squonk (27 Aug 2007)

My wife has a Volkswagen Polo, 2003 Automatic. When we bought the car second-hand from a Volkwagen dealership they told us the car had a timing chain. We got the car serviced a month ago with the local (non-Volkswagen) mechanic and he told us the car had a timing belt, not a chain! I've looked through the manual and I can't see any info. Anybody know off hand where I can get this confirmed? Thanks.


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## Caveat (27 Aug 2007)

From Honestjohn's listings of cars that have chains instead of belts:

_"VW: 1.2 litre 3-cylinder petrol engine, 1.4 Litre TSI, Golf VR5 and VR6, Sharan VR6, all Touareg, all Phaeton (some VWs have gear train driven camshafts rather than belts or chains)."_

If your Polo is a 1.2 3 cylinder, based on the above, it seems that it has a chain.


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