# The Pope should resign



## roland (20 Dec 2009)

It's not often I agree with Sinead O Connor, but for the love of god the  Pope really does need to resign, if not be thrown in jail.  I thought I was used to the bare arrogance of the Vatican and its like, but the response of the Pope to the abuse report must plumb a new low.

To listen to Ratzinger "share" his outrage and betrayal at the report's findings is beyond belief.  A moment's pause might help him recollect his role as "Prefect for the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith", or Chief Mullah as I prefer it, where he spear-headed the suppression of abuse reports.  It was his responsibility, by JP2's instruction, to investigate this abuse.  His response was to obstruct justice and suppress the truth in a weasel attempt to protect the Vatican.

How this man can stand up and emit the words he did, much less as someone who epouses Christian values, is not just a point of outrage but surely something where justice needs to be served.


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## z107 (20 Dec 2009)

Pope John Paul II has also become one step closer to becoming a saint. More nonsense by the Catholic church. Can they make me an angel when I die?

The Catholic church should be foremost regarded as a business entity, because that's what it most closely resembles. The Pope is its CEO, and should be held to account.


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## Teatime (20 Dec 2009)

And yet the numbers are increasing at mass. I cannot understand how people never stayed away from the church, even for a short while, in protest at the abuse of children etc and the coverups and the inaction or even to force the bishops to resign. The whole institution is rotten.


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## Purple (20 Dec 2009)

umop3p!sdn said:


> Pope John Paul II has also become one step closer to becoming a saint. More nonsense by the Catholic church. Can they make me an angel when I die?
> 
> The Catholic church should be foremost regarded as a business entity, because that's what it most closely resembles. The Pope is its CEO, and should be held to account.





The RC Church is a continuation of the Roman Empire and should be seen in that context. It acts as if its word was law (in the secular sense) and has all the corruption of age old unquestioned power while failing to realise that time has left it behind.

What it needs to do now is to start, for the first time in nearly two thousand years, practicing what it preaches. Maybe a good starting point would be for the Pope to read the New Testament while pretending that Paul and Constantine hadn’t screwed the whole thing up. 
Just my atheist view (since they aren’t going to admit that the whole thing is a sham).

I have said in another post that I think we should expel the Papal Nuncio and break off diplomatic relations with the Vatican since they instructed Irish citizens to hold its laws as paramount and therefore to ignore the law of this land, in this country, when dealing with criminal acts. The Vatican is now a hostile state and should be treated accordingly.


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## RMCF (21 Dec 2009)

Teatime said:


> *And yet the numbers are increasing at mass*. I cannot understand how people never stayed away from the church, even for a short while, in protest at the abuse of children etc and the coverups and the inaction or even to force the bishops to resign. The whole institution is rotten.



Whats your evidence for that? 

I thought that we have been told for years that the numbers are falling off badly.

As for the old Pope, everyones favourite. Surely he was no better as he presided over an era of terrible sexual abuse too. There is no doubt at all that he knew it was all happening, yet no-one was handed over to the police.


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## Sunny (21 Dec 2009)

RMCF said:


> Whats your evidence for that?
> 
> I thought that we have been told for years that the numbers are falling off badly.


 
They rose during the boom years mainly due to the influx of foreign workers especially the Polish.


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## haminka1 (21 Dec 2009)

Sunny said:


> They rose during the boom years mainly due to the influx of foreign workers especially the Polish.



they are going back now but i wouldn't really say they accounted for most of mass visitors, especially considering the fact that they had their own priests who came to preach in their own language ...
honestly, considering all the debates about the excessive baptism and confirmation celebration expenses in the recent years it's really difficult to say that the numbers are really going down THAT rapidly ...

Vatican is a like a senior home full of people with plenty of influence but less connection to reality ...


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## Teatime (21 Dec 2009)

RMCF said:


> Whats your evidence for that?


 
I've seen a few articles saying that even though numbers declined dramatically during the boom years, there have been increases in the past 12-18 months.


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## MrMan (21 Dec 2009)

Teatime said:


> And yet the numbers are increasing at mass. I cannot understand how people never stayed away from the church, even for a short while, in protest at the abuse of children etc and the coverups and the inaction or even to force the bishops to resign. The whole institution is rotten.



People are going to pray to God and not to the priests who have committed crimes.


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## AlastairSC (21 Dec 2009)

Perhaps RCs should consider the practices of some reformed churches? - regularly elect elders from the congregation to govern, diffused model of service in church/meetings (no doctrinaire elite), a community of christians coming together to worship. 

In other words, back to the fundamentals....


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## colm5 (21 Dec 2009)

I don't think the Pope can resign, he is supposed to be Gods representative on Earth. He didn't sign up for the post, he was 'chosen'.


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## DB74 (21 Dec 2009)

MrMan said:


> People are going to pray to God and not to the priests who have committed crimes.


 
Well that is not the view espoused by the Catholic Church.

AFAIK, Cathloic Church dogma dictates that God's word is passed to his flock through the Roman Catholic Church, passed down from the Pope to Cardinals to Archbishops etc etc.

We (the lay person) receive God's word from our Parish Priests.


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## MrMan (21 Dec 2009)

DB74 said:


> Well that is not the view espoused by the Catholic Church.
> 
> AFAIK, Cathloic Church dogma dictates that God's word is passed to his flock through the Roman Catholic Church, passed down from the Pope to Cardinals to Archbishops etc etc.
> 
> We (the lay person) receive God's word from our Parish Priests.



If you pray at night are you not 'talking to God', people often don't respect or like priests but they do have faith.


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## DB74 (21 Dec 2009)

Agree fully but unless you accept Catholic doctrine in full then you can't really consider yourself Catholic though.

I believe in This post will be deleted if not edited immediately Christ but I don't believe that the Roman Catholic Church has gone the way he would have wanted.

Unfortunately I don't have time to found my own religion.


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## Complainer (21 Dec 2009)

AlastairSC said:


> Perhaps RCs should consider the practices of some reformed churches? - regularly elect elders from the congregation to govern, diffused model of service in church/meetings (no doctrinaire elite), a community of christians coming together to worship.
> 
> In other words, back to the fundamentals....


Now where have I heard that before;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_Reformation


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## haminka1 (21 Dec 2009)

colm5 said:


> I don't think the Pope can resign, he is supposed to be Gods representative on Earth. He didn't sign up for the post, he was 'choosen'.



do you by any chance believe in Santa as well?


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## gearoid (21 Dec 2009)

Pope John Paul II was good on combatting Communism.

He was also very keen on silencing any form of social justice in Latin America. Instead of supporting the likes of the El Salvadorean bishop who was murdered, or those who espoused the rights of the poor, he supported looney right wing sects such as the Legionaries of Christ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legion_of_Christ. Beatifying him is to me a joke.

I knew that the church was moving around at least one paedophile in the mid 1980s. He had been given control of the 6th class in our school but finally had to leave in disgrace for other reasons.  I confronted one of the priests in the school and they all knew about his activities. Not one of them did a thing. It rendered any moral teaching I received from them a joke. I left the Catholic Church in 1986 because of this issue and the right-wing leanings of the papacy.

What concerns me is the stranglehold the church has on boards of education in the school sector, and the influence they had in hospitals e.g. the Lourdes in Drogheda.

Surely now is the time to complete the separation of church and state, remove all clergy from positions of authority in education, the hospital sector etc.

The President's performance through all this furore has been less than impressive. Mary McAleese was a very conservative appointment to the position, given her 1980's referenda role and she is not in step with much of public opinion. She hasn't exactly been straining to criticise the hierarchy, which I guess she doesn't have to do. But, I wouldn't be alone in noting her strain of ultra-conservative northern Catholicism has not been helpful in getting the nation through the crisis.


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## MrMan (21 Dec 2009)

haminka1 said:


> do you by any chance believe in Santa as well?


 
Why is he chosen by the vatican too?


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## z107 (21 Dec 2009)

> Why is he chosen by the vatican too?


Well he's a Saint (St Nicolas) so probably.


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## RMCF (22 Dec 2009)

If me or you interferred with/abused children, be it now or 30 years ago, and were duscivered, we would be arrested immediately and get a well deserved prison sentence for a very long time.

So can someone please explain why we aren't seeing loads of clergymen being arrested on the news and gets banged up??

This is baffling me at the minute.


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## haminka1 (22 Dec 2009)

MrMan said:


> Why is he chosen by the vatican too?



St. Nicolaus was a actually a bishop, wasn't he, so I'd guess yes /though not by the vatican, obviously/.


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## Sol28 (22 Dec 2009)

Well I cant make the pope resign and while I would love to see all the cardinals and bishops from the past 50 years in a court of law and convicted of child endangerment - i dont see that happening. So what i did is defect from the RC church and have let them know my reasons. www.countmeout.ie

(No allegiance - just a very disgruntled soon-to-be ex-Catholic)


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## annR (22 Dec 2009)

RMCF said:


> If me or you interferred with/abused children, be it now or 30 years ago, and were duscivered, we would be arrested immediately and get a well deserved prison sentence for a very long time.
> 
> So can someone please explain why we aren't seeing loads of clergymen being arrested on the news and gets banged up??
> 
> This is baffling me at the minute.


 
RMCF, I agree.  Some of the priests in the Murphy were laicised i.e. just let loose on society.  I would like to know what is happening to protect people from those priests which are still alive.


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## One (22 Dec 2009)

Purple said:


> The RC Church is a continuation of the Roman Empire and should be seen in that context. It acts as if its word was law (in the secular sense) and has all the corruption of age old unquestioned power while failing to realise that time has left it behind.


 
I agree.


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## DublinTexas (22 Dec 2009)

I am constantly amazed how our law enforcement is ignoring this issue and is not going around rounding up these cardinals/priests, but then again I don’t understand most what our ruling elite is doing.

As to Mr. Ratzinger, as a head of state he unfortunately has diplomatic immunity so even if he would come to Ireland nothing our ruling elite could do.

I think we should all remember that these criminals have allegiance to a foreign country and ruler so if Mr. Ratzinger would be genuinely interested in getting this sorted, I’m sure he can find some old law in his library (or make up a new one) that would allow to have these criminals tried in his own state.

But what do you expect from a member of the Hitler Jugend who protected concentration camps and protected people rounding up Jews?


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## annR (22 Dec 2009)

DublinTexas said:


> But what do you expect from a member of the Hitler Jugend who protected concentration camps and protected people rounding up Jews?


 
I think that's completely irrelevant, surely you don't want to start muddying the waters on this by starting off some discussion about what he did or didn't do when he was in Hitler Jugend (as most German boys were at that time).


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## colm5 (22 Dec 2009)

haminka1 said:


> do you by any chance believe in Santa as well?


..which would have nothing to do with whether the pope can resign or not...I don't see your point?.


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## DublinTexas (22 Dec 2009)

annR said:


> I think that's completely irrelevant, surely you don't want to start muddying the waters on this by starting off some discussion about what he did or didn't do when he was in Hitler Jugend (as most German boys were at that time).


 
I completely disagree, how he behaved in those times and what he did during that times is part of his overall personality. He did nothing to not endanger his career in the church.

His behavior as chief of the Holy Office of the Inquisition in investigating the abuse was exactly the same as he dealt with his time in the HJ: Excuses, obstructions and an attempt to suppress the truth.

It’s not muddying the waters; it’s showing where he is coming from. He only tried to disobey once it was clear that the war was over. Similar to what he is doing now. It becomes clear that the church is standing on a breaking point, so he starts trying to make excuses and align himself with the good guys. 

He always makes it seem as though all the problems, violence, and hatred existed outside his local community when he talks about that time. And he did the same with his approach to the sex abuse (which is not only an Irish problem).

There is a saying “a leopard does not change it spots” and that fully applies here. 

He is dealing with this outrages behavior of his people in the same way he is dealing with his muddy past.


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## MrMan (22 Dec 2009)

haminka1 said:


> St. Nicolaus was a actually a bishop, wasn't he, so I'd guess yes /though not by the vatican, obviously/.



Sorry I had presumed you were speaking of the mythical figure 'Santa' rather than Nicholas who was indeed a real person.


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## MrMan (22 Dec 2009)

RMCF said:


> If me or you interferred with/abused children, be it now or 30 years ago, and were duscivered, we would be arrested immediately and get a well deserved prison sentence for a very long time.
> 
> So can someone please explain why we aren't seeing loads of clergymen being arrested on the news and gets banged up??
> 
> This is baffling me at the minute.



They should be locked up forever but as can be seen from the continued list of weekly cases of abuse from non clergy men that have committed horrendous crimes against children, the actual punishment is lame. 
Men and women who commit these crimes should see life imprisonment as their punishment at the very least, but it is often almost as galling as reading about the abuse as it is to read about the short jail terms that are handed out.


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## Teatime (22 Dec 2009)

MrMan said:


> Sorry I had presumed you were speaking of the mythical figure 'Santa'


 
Just like the mythical figure God?


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## Chocks away (22 Dec 2009)

Purple said:


> I have said in another post that I think we should expel the Papal Nuncio and break off diplomatic relations with the Vatican since they instructed Irish citizens to hold its laws as paramount and therefore to ignore the law of this land, in this country, when dealing with criminal acts. The Vatican is now a hostile state and should be treated accordingly.


If the Papal Nuncio exhorts Irish people to disobey state law, his employer should be asked to account. Then, if there is no result from the Vatican, the PN should be expelled, the Vatican once again asked to recant their earlier directives and, if no joy, be ostracised as a rogue state. A little freeing up of it's vast landbanks, moneymaking activities and an end to it's tax concession would concentrate it's mind a little and/or kill two birds with the one stone.


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## RMCF (22 Dec 2009)

MrMan said:


> They should be locked up forever but as can be seen from the continued list of weekly cases of abuse from non clergy men that have committed horrendous crimes against children, the actual punishment is lame.
> Men and women who commit these crimes should see life imprisonment as their punishment at the very least, but it is often almost as galling as reading about the abuse as it is to read about the short jail terms that are handed out.



Thanks for the reply but it still doesn't answer my question.

If my name was published or mentioned as being a child abuser, the guards would be straight round my door, arresting me.

So why isn't this happening on a daily basis to priests, bishops etc?


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## haminka1 (23 Dec 2009)

MrMan said:


> Sorry I had presumed you were speaking of the mythical figure 'Santa' rather than Nicholas who was indeed a real person.



strictly speaking both ...
first of all - a pope isn't God's representative on Earth - never heard of God claiming he's a Catholic so unless we have a signed testimony from above, any pope is just a head of the Catholic Church and the highest state representative of the Vatican. that said, he is a political and diplomatic figure, nothing else.
the motives behind an election of a pope have less to do with their holiness and more with their : age, ranking, suitability of ideas /wasn't Ratzi chosen because he is particularly arch-conservative/ etc. ...
that said, a pope is not chosen, he is elected and can resign ...
St. Nicholas was at the beginning of the Santa legend though I'd have my doubts there were actually any alcoholic reindeer in Turkey at the time and  the tradition to start a mass with Ho Ho Ho surely did not become popular.


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## MrMan (23 Dec 2009)

RMCF said:


> Thanks for the reply but it still doesn't answer my question.
> 
> If my name was published or mentioned as being a child abuser, the guards would be straight round my door, arresting me.
> 
> So why isn't this happening on a daily basis to priests, bishops etc?


True and its unfortunate that any power was and is used by the church to aid its members, there is no logical reason as to why the Gardai don't do this, so the question should be put to them as the power ultimatly lies with the State.


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## MrMan (23 Dec 2009)

haminka1 said:


> strictly speaking both ...
> first of all - a pope isn't God's representative on Earth - never heard of God claiming he's a Catholic so unless we have a signed testimony from above, any pope is just a head of the Catholic Church and the highest state representative of the Vatican. that said, he is a political and diplomatic figure, nothing else.
> the motives behind an election of a pope have less to do with their holiness and more with their : age, ranking, suitability of ideas /wasn't Ratzi chosen because he is particularly arch-conservative/ etc. ...
> that said, a pope is not chosen, he is elected and can resign ...
> St. Nicholas was at the beginning of the Santa legend though I'd have my doubts there were actually any alcoholic reindeer in Turkey at the time and  the tradition to start a mass with Ho Ho Ho surely did not become popular.


Yes the Vatican state that he is Gods representative on earth, that is of no interest to me, but the Pope is chosen by the vatican. I don't see any difference between elected and chosen.


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## DublinTexas (23 Dec 2009)

haminka1 said:


> first of all - a pope isn't God's representative on Earth - never heard of God claiming he's a Catholic so unless we have a signed testimony from above, any pope is just a head of the Catholic Church and the highest state representative of the Vatican. that said, he is a political and diplomatic figure, nothing else.


 

I agree, the Bishop of Rome (which Mr. Ratzinger is) is simply the figurehead of the church, let’s remember that strictly speaking Pope is not even an official title. 




haminka1 said:


> that said, a pope is not chosen, he is elected and can resign ...


 
If I’m not mistaken the Bishop of Rome can resign at any time, in fact 332 §2 of the Code of Canon Law envisions such a resignation. See here: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_P16.HTM .



RMCF said:


> If my name was published or mentioned as being a child abuser, the guards would be straight round my door, arresting me.
> 
> So why isn't this happening on a daily basis to priests, bishops etc?


 
Now come one, since when our guards enforcing the law that the ruling classes pass towards our ruling classes. What do you think this is? A Democratic state where everybody gets treated the same? 

But I’m sure that if you get arrested your local parish priest will be in the court room together with other supporters and help you through the difficult time blaming your victims as they had it coming. 





MrMan said:


> True and its unfortunate that any power was and is used by the church to aid its members, there is no logical reason as to why the Gardai don't do this, so the question should be put to them as the power ultimatly lies with the State.


 
Now correct me if I’m wrong but given that this is widespread, the people in charge in the church did aid and help those criminals doesn’t that make the church a criminal organization? Maybe we should bring in the CAB? 


Now I’m not saying that everybody in the church is guilty here but as long as they don’t get their act together we should treat them as such. For me until they have expelled all criminals out of their organization and completely co-operated with the law they are a criminal organization.


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## haminka1 (23 Dec 2009)

MrMan said:


> Yes the Vatican state that he is Gods representative on earth, that is of no interest to me, but the Pope is chosen by the vatican. I don't see any difference between elected and chosen.



chosen sounds more .... hm ... let's say, as if really given the office by divine powers ...
vatican is no divine power, it's a community of elderly diplomats ..
however, if someone is elected, then surely he can resign?


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## MrMan (23 Dec 2009)

haminka1 said:


> chosen sounds more .... hm ... let's say, as if really given the office by divine powers ...
> vatican is no divine power, it's a community of elderly diplomats ..
> however, if someone is elected, then surely he can resign?



Whatever about our choice of words, i would imagine he sees it as a blessing and not a job, so resignation is not on the cards.


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## mercman (24 Dec 2009)

MrMan said:


> Whatever about our choice of words, i would imagine he sees it as a blessing and not a job, so resignation is not on the cards.



If resignation is not on the cards then the Catholic Community worldwide should sack him, simple as that. It should not remain the job of a bunch of perverts to elect a boss for millions.


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## haminka1 (25 Dec 2009)

MrMan said:


> Whatever about our choice of words, i would imagine he sees it as a blessing and not a job, so resignation is not on the cards.



how do you know how he sees it? anyway, there is such thing such as moral responsibility ...


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## S.L.F (25 Dec 2009)

I see some fruit cake tried to grab him again


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## Lex Foutish (25 Dec 2009)

S.L.F said:


> I see some fruit cake tried to grab him again


 
Yeah, I heard that Leinster are hoping to sign her for the remainder of this season's Heineken Cup.


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## Rois (25 Dec 2009)

Lex Foutish said:


> Yeah, I heard that Leinster are hoping to sign her for the remainder of this season's Heineken Cup.


 
No Munster - apparently she was wearing a red jersey


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## levelpar (25 Dec 2009)

In the name of God , could you all not leave the vitriolic  expressions until after Christmas Day


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## MrMan (26 Dec 2009)

mercman said:


> If resignation is not on the cards then the Catholic Community worldwide should sack him, simple as that. It should not remain the job of a bunch of perverts to elect a boss for millions.


 
Its not a democracy it is religion, and as for your second sentence is it any wonder that little gets resolved in the world with attitudes like that.


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## MrMan (26 Dec 2009)

haminka1 said:


> how do you know how he sees it? anyway, there is such thing such as moral responsibility ...


 
I'm making a presumption that based on religious teachings one would find it an honour to have that position bestowed onto them. As for moral responsibility, maybe he sees it as a test from God who knows but very little is cut and dried.


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## The_Banker (27 Dec 2009)

levelpar said:


> In the name of God , could you all not leave the vitriolic expressions until after Christmas Day


 

Christmas Day, New Years Days, Easter Sunday... What difference does it matter?


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## haminka1 (27 Dec 2009)

MrMan said:


> I'm making a presumption that based on religious teachings one would find it an honour to have that position bestowed onto them. As for moral responsibility, maybe he sees it as a test from God who knows but very little is cut and dried.



maybe - and maybe all he's trying to do is damage limitation - if pope's function is that of a head of a religion, why have an independent state and why, when asking for a statement, common people were told - your government should talk to our diplomatic representatives? 
i by no means believe vatican is about religion as in faith, it's all about politics, they just have the advantage of switching between "we are the representatives of god" and "we are diplomats" ...


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## mercman (27 Dec 2009)

MrMan said:


> as for your second sentence is it any wonder that little gets resolved in the world with attitudes like that.



So in your mind it remains satisfactory to have clergymen and women to abuse and sexually bugger innocent children and we should all be nice to these people. Please get real. They deserve nothing but contempt.

Little gets resolved as the Catholic Church have defended themselves with nothing but lies, lies and more lies. In a modern democracy, the Church would be run out of a country. Here they are given opportunity and they still do nothing. Their head has even refused to offer the Irish people an apology as a matter of honour.


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## Rois (27 Dec 2009)

levelpar said:


> In the name of God , could you all not leave the vitriolic expressions until after Christmas Day


 
Oh yes of course, because one of the victims of the orphanages was on TV recently, and said the only day each year that he wasn't buggered by the clergy was on Christmas Day!


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## MrMan (29 Dec 2009)

mercman said:


> So in your mind it remains satisfactory to have clergymen and women to abuse and sexually bugger innocent children and we should all be nice to these people. Please get real. They deserve nothing but contempt.
> 
> Little gets resolved as the Catholic Church have defended themselves with nothing but lies, lies and more lies. In a modern democracy, the Church would be run out of a country. Here they are given opportunity and they still do nothing. Their head has even refused to offer the Irish people an apology as a matter of honour.



You really do enjoy missing points and twisting words, are you capable of understanding english?


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## S.L.F (29 Dec 2009)

mercman said:


> In a modern democracy, the Church would be run out of a country.


 
What kind of democracy are you talking about, one where you can worship as you please or one where you can only worship if it's ok with the state?


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## z107 (29 Dec 2009)

> If resignation is not on the cards then the Catholic Community worldwide should sack him, simple as that. It should not remain the job of a bunch of perverts to elect a boss for millions.


Are they all perverts?


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## Lak (29 Dec 2009)

I read with disdain that the woman who jumped a barrier is to be hauled before a Vatican court...... that should by rights be a very busy court shouldnt it ??
Wonder how many vile paedophiles have been hauled in front of that judge recently, I guess less than 1.


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## DublinTexas (29 Dec 2009)

I think Mr. Ratzinger does not really care about what is going on in Ireland and especially not what some people on this board might think of him or his (in)actions. So I think it’s clear that he won’t resign. 

Never the less, let me continue to vent about these perverts that misused their position of authority to commit crimes, a long tradition in that fine organization.

Let’s face it, most people these days still believe in the teaching of Mr. Ratzinger’s cult.

In depended of how preposterous these teaching are to me or others they have the right to believe these teachings as much as Mr. Cruise has the right to believe in the teachings of Mr. L. Ron Hubbard. 

Where it stops is when it becomes clear that criminal activities have been committed by members of that organization and every effort has been made by that organization to pervert the course of justice. 

It’s very easy to me. The people who committed these crimes must be punished and anybody who helped him before or after the fact needs to be punished too. And it does not really matter if they resign from an obscure organization or not. They need to be arrested and punished accordingly, preferred in general prison population who I’m sure wills love child molesters.

I’m not advocating of closing down the catholic church in Ireland or to put every person who believes in these sort of teachings in the same pot, however as long as people employed by this organization are hindering the efforts of justice, actions need to be taken to ensure the co-operation of that organization.

But giving that we don’t investigate our banks because it could undermine the recovery of our economy, I don’t think that we are going to see a criminal investigation in this because it could undermine the moral recovery of our country. 

Let’s instead lower the tax rate on alcohol so that we can all drink our sorrows away that worked in the past, so it might work this time again.


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## mercman (31 Dec 2009)

MrMan said:


> You really do enjoy missing points and twisting words, are you capable of understanding english?



Mr.Man are you in denial that these things actually happened ?? I am certainly not twisting words and I do understand English.

The facts are the facts and the church had previously done everything to pervert the course of justice. I knew somebody that was very high in the Church in the UK and to the day of his death he dismissed the stories of abuse as lies and trouble making. And I know others who are even higher in the Church who pronounced to me a number of years ago that Rome knew all along as to what was going on in the Irish Church. In fact the same person saw the files in Rome quite a few years ago way before the story hit the headlines. So with respect to you please do not make insinuations that I am twisting words.


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## mercman (31 Dec 2009)

S.L.F said:


> What kind of democracy are you talking about, one where you can worship as you please or one where you can only worship if it's ok with the state?



It is all very fine asking this. But on current numbers and attitudes the Church have a hell of a job of rebuilding the moral ground, which is quite a pity as for all the bad that was done, there still are persons involved in the Church who undertake a lot of good work to an enormous sized congregation, especially in these difficult times.


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## S.L.F (31 Dec 2009)

mercman said:


> It should not remain the job of a bunch of perverts to elect a boss for millions.


 
I'm sure you know all the various cardinals in the world get together and elect a Pope, are you saying all 100% are perverts.



mercman said:


> So in your mind it remains satisfactory to have clergymen and women to abuse and sexually bugger innocent children and we should all be nice to these people. Please get real. They deserve nothing but contempt.


 
mercman can you link a post to where MrMan expressed satisfaction at buggery of children by priests or nuns because if he has I'd like to get stuck into him too.


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## mercman (31 Dec 2009)

S.L.F said:


> I'm sure you know all the various cardinals in the world get together and elect a Pope, are you saying all 100% are perverts.
> 
> mercman can you link a post to where MrMan expressed satisfaction at buggery of children by priests or nuns because if he has I'd like to get stuck into him too.



On the basis of the information why didn't they simply do something about it. this has been going on for years with full knowledge known to the hierarchy. 

In relation to Mr.Man, it was he that implied I was twisting words and missing points. At no time have I made any reference that he is a supporter of abuse.


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## S.L.F (31 Dec 2009)

mercman said:


> At no time have I made any reference that he is a supporter of abuse.


 
In fairness what you said was



mercman said:


> *So in your mind it remains satisfactory* to have clergymen and women to abuse and sexually bugger innocent children and we should all be nice to these people.


 
I also am horrified by what went on and I'm sure MrMan is too, an entire generation of kids were sexually abused, treated like slaves and tortured by Christian Brothers and the guys in charge did worse than nothing they seek-ed to hide what went on which to me is worse.

Thousands of children had their lives ruined by them and nothing can make it right, the Catholic Church has done wondrous things in its life time, many millions of people have had their lives enriched by them, we as a nation have benefited from the education they gave.

If you are looking for someone to blame for this you should also be blaming our govt and past ministers and the policemen who brought kids back to them (they also knew what was going on but did nothing to stop it) after they ran away.

Even the courts were sending kids to them.

We as Irish people have plenty to be proud of but who we pick to rule our lives really make me sick to the stomach.

I hope you have a great new year and that our lives become better next year, I really hope that all those who helped torture a entire generation are brought to justice but I just don't see it happening.


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## DublinTexas (1 Jan 2010)

S.L.F said:


> In fairness what you said was
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Thanks to the Gods that I never had the misfortune to attend schools run by the Christian brothers or some other religious outfit.

I agree with S.L.F. that it is not enough to condemn the people that committed the acts but also those who enabled them. And he is very right that this went from government over law enforcement to the courts.

But the core is that up to now beside some forces resignations and a sweetheart compensation deal nothing really has happened that would address this in more than “it’s a dark period of our history, let’s move on”.

Our government is a master at that, the recent “we don’t need a banking investigation as it would undermine our recovery” is another sign that the clan that is in charge of this country is not learning.

But what can we do? Maybe someone with a lot of courage (and deep pockets) should try a citizen’s arrest of the criminals but I don’t think that our ruling clans will be nice to that person.

It is what it is a mess and maybe if we ignore it long enough it will go away. I don’t think that anything major is going to happen.


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## Chocks away (1 Jan 2010)

How about the great man himself and all his administrators worldwide, simultaneously kneeling down, confessing ALL and then begging forgiveness of their flock. A period of penitance, lets say 40 days, should follow this, in which time, all the trappings of wealth accrued by Rome should be sold and the proceeds given to those in need. This time could also be used to weed out those who seem not to be suited to their "calling". A simple vote among parishioners or the laiety could do this on the cheap. Contemplative and silent orders should have any government funding stopped. Mendicants can join the other unfortunates with their teacups - after all, it's legal now. And finally a total seperation of church and state.


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