# VRT Fraud or not



## lemeister (2 Mar 2008)

A person I know is driving a top of the range SUV bought in UK for the past couple of years with UK registration plate have not paid VRT.
I believe the arrangement they have is that it was actually a UK based relative of theirs who purchased the motor and is also the main insured driver on the UK insurance policy, with the Irish based person I know being a named driver on the policy.
Is this arrangement legal or does this constitute VRT fraud? I presume the UK insurance is fine given that it is within the EU?


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## z104 (2 Mar 2008)

probably is but I personally wouldn't begrudge it..If you are jealous enough then by all means report him.


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## John Rambo (2 Mar 2008)

Niallers said:


> probably is but I personally wouldn't begrudge it..If you are jealous enough then by all means report him.


 
This is a bizarre post...what has 'jealousy' got to do with it if someone is possibly defrauding the Irish Exchequer (i.e. all of us)?


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## z104 (2 Mar 2008)

It sounds like the original poster is jealous that the person he knows is driving a top of the range SUV. What difference does it make if it's a banger or top of the range suv. Would he be thinking about reporting the fella if it was an old banger.

I wouldn't begrudge the guy with the UK plates on his car because I as a tax payer believe that VRT is an unfair if not illegal tax.


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## John Rambo (2 Mar 2008)

Niallers said:


> It sounds like the original poster is jealous that the person he knows is driving a top of the range SUV. What difference does it make if it's a banger or top of the range suv. Would he be thinking about reporting the fella if it was an old banger.
> 
> I wouldn't begrudge the guy with the UK plates on his car because I as a tax payer believe that VRT is an unfair if not illegal tax.


 
I also beleive it's an unfair tax...however that doesn't mean I agree with people unilaterally evading a tax that the rest of us have to pay. And the value of the car represents the scale of the evasion.


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## Complainer (2 Mar 2008)

lemeister said:


> Is this arrangement legal or does this constitute VRT fraud?


Yes, it is fraud.


lemeister said:


> I presume the UK insurance is fine given that it is within the EU?


If the main driver specified on the policy is not in fact the main driver, then it is insurance fraud too.


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## lemeister (2 Mar 2008)

Niallers said:


> probably is but I personally wouldn't begrudge it..If you are jealous enough then by all means report him.


 
Not necessarily jealously at all - I didn't know the answer to the question, hence asking,  and if it was legal then I would have sought a similar arrangement, but so far the opinion seems to be that it's not legal.  

I didn't think this situation was that clear cut as the person driving the vehicle is not actually the owner.  I wasn't (still not) sure whether there was time limit for how long someone could drive a vehicle here under these circumstances.



Niallers said:


> What difference does it make if it's a banger or top of the range suv.


About €30k worth of VRT - would be non sensical to go to such measures for a banger.  
I certainly don't think of VRT as being a very fair tax either, but it's a tax applicable to all who chose purchase a motor. I don't get away without paying my fair share of taxes and it just seriously annoys me when I see people flaunting the law (to the tune of not far of the average industrial wage in this country).


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## briancbyrne (3 Mar 2008)

Complainer said:


> Yes, it is fraud.
> 
> If the main driver specified on the policy is not in fact the main driver, then it is insurance fraud too.


 
-technically its not fraud as the person bringing it from the uk would presumably not have to pay vrt if they lived & worked in the uk prior to moving here.
They should however of registered it upon arriving so that they could pay road tax.


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## dublinli (3 Mar 2008)

briancbyrne said:


> -technically its not fraud as the person bringing it from the uk would presumably not have to pay vrt if they lived & worked in the uk prior to moving here.
> They should however of registered it upon arriving so that they could pay road tax.


that is why it looks like fraud, if the person who was living in the uk and moved to ireland (probably didnt in this case) registered the car in ireland there would be no vrt.


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## briancbyrne (3 Mar 2008)

dublinli said:


> that is why it looks like fraud, if the person who was living in the uk and moved to ireland (probably didnt in this case) registered the car in ireland there would be no vrt.


 
yes - looks like fraud -

I'm sorry but if there are loopholes there to use - fair play to the person in using them.
I currently drive an English registered vehicle. I believe that as a member of Europe we should comply with european laws and directives (as is my constitutional right since the constitution was changed upon joining Europe) - as such the Irish Government is applying an unfair tax which does not uphold the fair movement of goods withen the E.U maxim. (as the vehicle was already taxed upon entering the EU)
I have wrote a letter to the E.U regarding this and they have replied that they have requested that the governement cease such practices.

Its only by peoples refusal to abide by this unfair tax system will the current unlawfull practice be highlighted.


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## theoneill (3 Mar 2008)

We all know that as soon as they abolish VRT we will just be hit with a tyre tax or something.
In the end it will all be revenue neutral.


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## lemeister (3 Mar 2008)

dublinli said:


> that is why it looks like fraud, if the person who was living in the uk and moved to ireland (probably didnt in this case) registered the car in ireland there would be no vrt.


 
The person involved had been living here for several years before buying the motor and bringing it to Ireland.


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## bacchus (3 Mar 2008)

briancbyrne said:


> yes - looks like fraud -
> I'm sorry but if there are loopholes there to use - fair play to the person in using them.


 
I don't think there are loopholes.. just lack of enforcement for whatever reason and people taking a chance.



briancbyrne said:


> I have wrote a letter to the E.U regarding this and they have replied that they have requested that the governement cease such practices...
> Its only by peoples refusal to abide by this unfair tax system will the current unlawfull practice be highlighted.


 
Is your real name Dempsey?

Until this tax is officialy abolished, poeple must pay it, end of story, as to whether they like it or not. Otherwise, it is the start of anarchy.

I believe that i am unfairly taxed at 41% as if i was living in an other european country i would may be only pay say 28%.. Does that give me any rights to refuse paying income tax in Ireland?

IMO, if one does not like the tax rules of Ireland, he/she can freely go and live & reside in another european country having tax rules that are more to his/her satisfaction. In the mean time, they are owed to pay their fair share of tax.


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## RS2K (3 Mar 2008)

Report it. What gives that person the right to scam the rest of us? 

p.s. UK insurance won't be valid here  on a long term basis either.


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## briancbyrne (3 Mar 2008)

bacchus said:


> I don't think there are loopholes.. just lack of enforcement for whatever reason and people taking a chance.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
nope - def not Dempsey.
I think the above post is in a nutshell what is is wrong with this country.
By inforcing this tax the government is contravening your constitutional rights.
Now this may not be a bone of contention with BACCHUS but I do have a problem with it.
It is this type of attitude whch has fostered the attitude of our current leaders that they can act how they like without consequence. In any other country our current leader would have been forced to resign due to his current situation - but no not Ireland - he simply turns the other cheek and carrys on - - and the worst thing?? -we allow it.


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## csirl (3 Mar 2008)

It doesnt matter who owns the vehicle and where they live or who usually drives the vehicle. If a vehicle is permanently imported to Ireland, VRT is due regardless of whether or not the owner lives in UK or even uses the vehicle.




> I presume the UK insurance is fine given that it is within the EU?


 
Depends on the terms of the insurance. Many insurance policies specify that the vehicle is primarily driven in the country of the insurer and should only be used for occasional driving abroad. As previous posters have said, if the main driver is not actually the main driver, then this may also invalidate.


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## briancbyrne (3 Mar 2008)

CSirl

this is not correct - a person who has resided in the UK and brings thier personal car with them when moving to Ireland is exempt from VRT.
They have to show proof of previous UK residency and cannot dispose of the vehicle for a period of time (think its 6 months)


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## csirl (3 Mar 2008)

> this is not correct - a person who has resided in the UK and brings thier personal car with them when moving to Ireland is exempt from VRT.
> They have to show proof of previous UK residency and cannot dispose of the vehicle for a period of time (think its 6 months)


 
They still have to register with Revenue and get an Irish number plate, just that that they are exempt from the payment of the tax. You cannot just bring a UK car over and drive it without going thru Revenue who will determine whether or not and how much tax is due. Bit like that you are obliged to make a tax return if you are in business, even if no tax is due.


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## briancbyrne (3 Mar 2008)

precisely

VRT is not due


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## Satanta (3 Mar 2008)

briancbyrne said:


> precisely
> 
> VRT is not due


This has no relevance to the case the OP mentioned, as the car in question is still driving on the UK plates. 

As csirl stated...


> They still have to register with Revenue and get an Irish number plate, just that that they are exempt from the payment of the tax


.... the exemption requires ownership in the UK for six months and ownership in Ireland for 12 months before the sale of the car, but even with the exemption the car must be registered here in Ireland.


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## Brouhahaha (3 Mar 2008)

briancbyrne said:


> I currently drive an English registered vehicle. I believe that as a member of Europe we should comply with european laws and directives (as is my constitutional right since the constitution was changed upon joining Europe) - as such the Irish Government is applying an unfair tax which does not uphold the fair movement of goods withen the E.U maxim. (as the vehicle was already taxed upon entering the EU)
> I have wrote a letter to the E.U regarding this and they have replied that they have requested that the governement cease such practices.
> 
> Its only by peoples refusal to abide by this unfair tax system will the current unlawfull practice be highlighted.


 
We have one of the lowest (if not _the_ lowest) income tax regimes in the E.U. We then have indirect tax on a lot of items (such as V.R.T.) to reach the level of tax income to fund the necessary services. 

Remove V.R.T. and that money must be got in some other form:

1. an increase on everyone's P.A.Y.E. tax rate
2. some other tax on car usage to the same value as V.R.T.

Either way you gots to pay - V.R.T. seems the fairer of the options to me.


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## briancbyrne (3 Mar 2008)

Satanta said:


> This has no relevance to the case the OP mentioned, as the car in question is still driving on the UK plates.
> 
> As csirl stated...
> 
> .... the exemption requires ownership in the UK for six months and ownership in Ireland for 12 months before the sale of the car, but even with the exemption the car must be registered here in Ireland.


 

see previous posts - - the term "pay VRT" was used  - - if as what you say is true - then no vrt is payable - you simply have to register the car


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## Complainer (3 Mar 2008)

briancbyrne said:


> I currently drive an English registered vehicle.


So where is your vehicle insured, i.e. how did you answer the 'where is the vehicle normally kept' question on the insurance proposal form?


bacchus said:


> I don't think there are loopholes.. just lack of enforcement for whatever reason and people taking a chance.


Are you sure about the lack of enforcement? You might want to check [broken link removed] (subscription required). 


> OFFICIALS FROM Revenue's customs service seized more than 300 vehicles, including 49 high-value cars, netting more than €3 million in taxes and penalties in 2007


In particular, note their 'value-add' approach whereby they seem to do a full tax audit on VRT offenders which brings in even more money.


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## csirl (4 Mar 2008)

> In particular, note their 'value-add' approach whereby they seem to do a full tax audit on VRT offenders which brings in even more money.


 
Good point. Revenue have a view that if you are dishonest in one aspect of your taxation that you are an untruthful person so it is likely you are being dishonest in other areas of your taxation.


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## bacchus (4 Mar 2008)

Complainer said:


> Are you sure about the lack of enforcement? You might want to check [broken link removed] (subscription required).


 
300 vehicles in one full year is hardly an achivement... I am seing dozen of eastern european registered cars on the road every day. I don't think they commute to Ireland every day to work (arguable point for NI and may be UK mainland reg cars based in NI)


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## Jo90 (4 Mar 2008)

why are people offering their subjective opinion on fairness on VRT, if it is due he should have to pay it simple as that. evasion of VRT, benefit fraud, all other tax evasion just means the rest of us have to share the burden.

the key risk is that if he has an accident in ireland and when the insurance company reviews details and investigates further it is more than likely to be in breach of policy conditions on several counts (vehicle based in ireland, primary driver incorrect) and as such would mean he is essentially uninsured.

also .....many think stamp duty is unfair but does not leave it optional !


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## Complainer (4 Mar 2008)

bacchus said:


> 300 vehicles in one full year is hardly an achivement... I am seing dozen of eastern european registered cars on the road every day. I don't think they commute to Ireland every day to work (arguable point for NI and may be UK mainland reg cars based in NI)



If somebody is temporarily here, e.g. on a short-term work contract, they are quite entitled to bring their own car over with them.


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