# Establishment of assets on death



## imalwayshappy (13 Nov 2020)

Hi,

When a person dies, assuming with no will in place, how would an executor establish the persons assets? Would he write to all banks in the country and ask for full disclosure?Also, do the revenue have any input when someone dies? i.e. does it trigger an audit of the deceased estate or anything?

Thanks


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## NoRegretsCoyote (13 Nov 2020)

A starting point would be to go the dead person's papers and correspondence which will usually have evidence of assets.

It's unlikely (but not impossible) that there are assets which leave no written trace.


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## Brendan Burgess (13 Nov 2020)

There are a few places where you might find accounts which have been forgotten about.

Write to the main banks as you suggest.  They have a department which would check this. Give them previous addresses and maiden names.

Also, make sure to check with the Prize Bonds. 

Check with the local credit union - and maybe also with any credit union associated with their workplace.

If the person had a current account go back over the very old statements to see if they transferred any large sums which might suggest moving money to a bank account.  Likewise any large round sum lodgements  might suggest a movement from a savings account.

Check for any payments to the Life insurance companies where a lot of people had savings products. Maybe write to
Irish Life
New Ireland
Standard Life
Eagle Star /Zurich Life
Aviva


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## john luc (15 Nov 2020)

As a follow, if an asset is discovered after probate and final distribution as assets. What happens then.


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## Thirsty (15 Nov 2020)

Depends on the nature / size of the asset.

A small sum of money was paid to an estate, of which I was joint executor, after all distribution was completed. Distribution to the several beneficiaries was not practical. We gave the money to a charity which the deceased supported.

If its a major asset / property, I believe you will be looking at filing a corrective affadavit.


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## Feemar5 (15 Nov 2020)

Regarding Revenue's involvement you have to complete a Revenue form to get a Grant of Probate.    If there is  tax outstanding including Property Tax it has to be paid.


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## imalwayshappy (16 Nov 2020)

Feemar5 said:


> Regarding Revenue's involvement you have to complete a Revenue form to get a Grant of Probate.    If there is  tax outstanding including Property Tax it has to be paid.



Perfect thanks, does a revenue audit get triggered also? Do they go back over the last 4 years of the deceased affairs also does anyone know?


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## Protocol (16 Nov 2020)

I'm just thinking out loud here..........should all financial assets be linked to a PPS number?

Should there be some sort of register of financial assets?

I don't mean whereby anybody can look up anybody else's financial assets.

I mean to make it easier at probate.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (16 Nov 2020)

Protocol said:


> I mean to make it easier at probate.



I think this is a solution in search of a problem.

CSO data suggests only about 20% of over-65s have financial assets other than cash savings or an ARF.


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## Thirsty (16 Nov 2020)

What we definitely need is a regulation for all wills to be registered with a national authority in order to be valid.


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## jpd (16 Nov 2020)

What if I want to keep my assets a secret?


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## NoRegretsCoyote (16 Nov 2020)

Thirsty said:


> What we definitely need is a regulation for all wills to be registered with a national authority in order to be valid.



100%. The will wouldn't even have to be stored in a central register if people are concerned about confidentiality. Just a register of what solicitor holds what will would be a huge step forward.

This is pure vested interest stuff. Solicitors are the only ones who benefit from the current system. Much more potential to bill for search and eventual dispute.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (16 Nov 2020)

jpd said:


> What if I want to keep my assets a secret?



Your bank or pension provider knows  your assets. So do your neighbours who walk past the house you own every day.

My will is completely uncontroversial: all assets to Mrs NRC or, if she pre-deceases me, split equally between our children. I wouldn't care if it was public on the internet.


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## jpd (16 Nov 2020)

Not sure I would put the stash of cash under the bed up on the internet


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## Thirsty (16 Nov 2020)

jpd said:


> What if I want to keep my assets a secret?


Nothing's secret from Revenue!


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## Thirsty (16 Nov 2020)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> Your bank or pension provider knows  your assets. So do your neighbours who walk past the house you own every day.
> 
> My will is completely uncontroversial: all assets to Mrs NRC or, if she pre-deceases me, split equally between our children. I wouldn't care if it was public on the internet.


Once you're dead it's public anyway.  

The Register of Wills (see I've even given it a name  ) doesn't have to include a list of assets: name & address, executor, witnesses and solicitor if relevant.  That's all you need prior to death; and that can be held confidentially.  When the testator dies, then the executor (or nominated solicitor) can produce their credentials and have full access to the registered will.


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## Feemar5 (16 Nov 2020)

imalwayshappy said:


> Perfect thanks, does a revenue audit get triggered also? Do they go back over the last 4 years of the deceased affairs also does anyone know?


As far as I know it is not common practice to do an audit.   I have been Executor for three small estates and there was no audit.   Perhaps if there was no tax returns done for a period Revenue may have questions.


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## Thirsty (16 Nov 2020)

I've not had an audit - but as executor you should have a letter from Revenue confirming the deceased's record is in order before any distribution.


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## Vanessa (22 Nov 2020)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> 100%. The will wouldn't even have to be stored in a central register if people are concerned about confidentiality. Just a register of what solicitor holds what will would be a huge step forward.
> 
> This is pure vested interest stuff. Solicitors are the only ones who benefit from the current system. Much more potential to bill for search and eventual dispute.



A national Register of Wills is often suggested and would be welcomed.
As one poster posted it doesnt need to break any confidences. All it needs to state is Name, PPS No. Date of Will and where stored.
It should be compulsory for a solicitor to register these details.
Of course people can make their own will without a solicitor but there is nothing stopping them from registering it.
I am convinced that estates are wound up every year on the basis that there was no will made or an earlier will was used.
I am aware of a case involving an Irish emigrant, a long time in England, who's first will was used despite the fact that he had updated one made when a brother died before him.


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## MOB (25 Nov 2020)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> This is pure vested interest stuff. Solicitors are the only ones who benefit from the current system. Much more potential to bill for search and eventual dispute.



1. *The Perception:*  solicitors do wills at little or no cost because they expect to make money when you die.    *The Reality*:  This may have been true in the past - particularly when law firms tended to pass as multi-generational family businesses. I have been making wills for 25+ years and hardly anybody has died on me.   My probate practice is almost entirely from wills made by solicitors long gone, and there was no 'crock of gold' for them in their will safe -because solicitors practices do not command a big price (unlike, say ,accountancy practices which have steady recurring revenue).   
I and most solicitors continue to prepare wills at a financial loss, because there is a public perception that a will should cost very little and it is very hard to either refuse the work or to charge properly for it without giving offence.  I have friends in the UK, married with no children, who have paid £900 for a pair of wills. My normal charge varies from zero to €200 including VAT.  

2.  *The Perception*:  solicitors like making money on search fees.  *The Reality*:  When a solicitor is trying to locate a missing will, he\she will write to maybe 20 firms.   19 out of 20 will conduct a search and then reply "no will here".  1 out of 20 will reply "yes we have a will; Here is our invoice for €100+VAT search and retrieval".  If anybody thinks that getting a search fee for one in every twenty searches is a profitable business model, I have a bridge I can sell you.

3.  *The Perception* ; Solicitors love disputes about wills.  *The Reality:  *We like some disputes - but they are rare.   Mostly, they are more trouble than they are worth.  We hate it when the drafting of the will is questioned.  We hate it when it is suggested that we didn't take proper instruction from the deceased.  All in all, estate disputes are fraught with professional risk.  What we really actually like:  nice straightforward probate files, where the deceased's affairs are in order, where there is plenty of cash and ideally just one or two beneficiaries (if there are ten beneficiaries of the residue, you can be nearly guaranteed that one of them will complain about your fees or your service;  with just one or two, you can make sure everyone is happy and shake hands on your fee)

4.  *The Perception  *An obligatory register of wills would solve a lot of problems in a cost effective manner.  *The Reality:  *Most wills are safely stored and in due course safely processed.  For the one in 100 wills (at a guess) that would benefit from a compulsory register, there are 99 wills that have just had a needless registration cost imposed.  Even at €60 per registration, most people will change wills three, four, five times in their life -so call it €250  per estate.  That's maybe €250 x 99 = €25,000 in admin cost added to the system to safeguard the 1 will in 100 that goes astray.  Unless of course you think that a solicitor should do this for free (but even then there will be some sort of registration fees payable).   The second issue is that some people, often for good reason, do not want it to be known that they have made a will.    Compulsory registration will create an obstacle for such clients.  

The legal profession has debated this issue a number of times.  There is no consensus and no clearly right answer.  The availability of a public wills register is probably a good idea.  The notion that it should be compulsory is probably not.  The idea that the legal profession have created the current system out of cynical self interest is, however, nonsense.


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## AlbacoreA (26 Nov 2020)

Just being going this over the past couple of years. Torture having to trawl through 50~60 yrs worth of paperwork, chaotically filled and organized, not helped by a unwillingness of parents and siblings to de-clutter. We were still uncovering accounts a year or two later after the solicitor started contacting banks. Previous generations seemed to have go into the habit of having lots of different accounts scattered far and wide. 

I've had mostly poor experience with solicitors. But this time I had no complaints about the solicitor we used. I think the fee was fair for the work done. But we did haggle and horse trade over the fee before starting out.


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## Pmc365 (28 Nov 2020)

MOB said:


> 1. *The Perception:*  solicitors do wills at little or no cost because they expect to make money when you die.    *The Reality*:  This may have been true in the past - particularly when law firms tended to pass as multi-generational family businesses. I have been making wills for 25+ years and hardly anybody has died on me.   My probate practice is almost entirely from wills made by solicitors long gone, and there was no 'crock of gold' for them in their will safe -because solicitors practices do not command a big price (unlike, say ,accountancy practices which have steady recurring revenue).
> I and most solicitors continue to prepare wills at a financial loss, because there is a public perception that a will should cost very little and it is very hard to either refuse the work or to charge properly for it without giving offence.  I have friends in the UK, married with no children, who have paid £900 for a pair of wills. My normal charge varies from zero to €200 including VAT.
> 
> 2.  *The Perception*:  solicitors like making money on search fees.  *The Reality*:  When a solicitor is trying to locate a missing will, he\she will write to maybe 20 firms.   19 out of 20 will conduct a search and then reply "no will here".  1 out of 20 will reply "yes we have a will; Here is our invoice for €100+VAT search and retrieval".  If anybody thinks that getting a search fee for one in every twenty searches is a profitable business model, I have a bridge I can sell you.
> ...




Generally speaking and not referring to the author above I believe the real reason Solicitors want the status quo I.e. no wills register is because traditionally they held the original will and they will therefore be hired to extract the grant of probate when they contact the beneficaries seeking instructions or the relatives contact them to see the will. It's quite obvious. A wills register could make a once - off charge to register a will.

I wish to make my own will to which I am perfectly capable of doing in full knowledge of the legal requirements. It would benefit me greatly to lodge the will with a public registry as then my relatives would 1. Know where my last will was located and 2. Could not try to destroy my last will so as a more beneficial intestacy scenario arose or a more beneficial previous will was reincarnated. 3. No risk of my will being lost: a solicitor's practice is after all merely a private business. The business may close on death or incapacity of its principal. Next of kin must then try to locate the files by contacting the Law Society and there is always the risk of their loss or accidental destruction.
Dont tell me there isn't a problem with the present system, just look at the huge amount of ads in the Law Society Gazette looking  for  wills and needless searches for same.

Incidentally , why can one not register a will in the Registry of Deeds. It was after all once referred to as the Register for registering "deeds wills and so forth."


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## Monbretia (29 Nov 2020)

AlbacoreA said:


> Previous generations seemed to have go into the habit of having lots of different accounts scattered far and wide.



I'd imagine a lot of that came from the fact that you could only earn a certain amount of interest before the details were returned to revenue from each account, when I started working in banking first around late 70s so I can't remember exact details but we used to regularly organise opening accounts in other branches for customers and would hold the books then for them, there could be half dozen books per customer.   Again I don't remember what the exact rule was, it must have been an amalgamation of accounts per branch for interest purposes so having it other places didn't count for that branch return.  

Anyway I'd imagine that was one of the reasons any savings were spread around so much plus then in later years 80/90s there were very competitive interest rates, I know myself I had accounts in practical every high street bank at that time and you'd be switching around on maturity for a better deal.  That has totally changed now as there is no good return to be made and at this stage I only use 3 different institutions.


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## bluepaint (14 Apr 2021)

Is statement of assets a self declaration or something stated by a solicitor?


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## mf1 (14 Apr 2021)

bluepaint said:


> Is statement of assets a self declaration or something stated by a solicitor?


Its the statement of assets provided by the executor to the solicitor who passes it on to Revenue on that basis . 

mf


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