# When or if to have a second child



## He-Man (24 Sep 2016)

Hi All

This seems the best forum for this thread. The issue of whether to have a second child is, for me, a financial one. Emotionally, my wife and I would like to have a second and our relationship is very solid and generally excellent. If we had a lot of money, we would easily have four or five children, but as things stand, the most we would ever have is two. Here are the details:


I'm 33; wifey is 34. 
We both live in the UAE, but I am from Ireland and my wife is from SE Asia.
I work for a large multi-national that is considered a great place to work (and it is)
My wife is an accountant but quit her job when she had our baby to be a full-time mother (we preferred this option to daycare or getting a nanny). 
Our combined income was reduced by 25% when my wife quit her job, but we still take in 120k EUR per year tax free.
We have excellent health cover provided by my employer
When our child reaches 3 years of age my employer covers around 80% of all educational costs from ages 3-18 up to a maximum of three children (education here is private)
We had our first baby 10 weeks ago.
My job seems secure. We could probably stay in the UAE for another 5-10 years if we wanted to.
Even with my wife unemployed, we still save 65% of our annual income and invest in diversified Vanguard ETFs (my employer does not provide a pension and there is no social insurance here)

So now, to have a second child or not? Our original plan was to have one child; after two years my wife would get a CMA and return to work. 

Now we're considering a second and a whole host of issues come up:

1. When to have? If we have a second child within the next two years, my wife can basically forget about getting a CMA and she'll be out of the labor market for the next 5 years. Will she be able to get back into it?

2. If we stay in the middle east, we can afford it due to my highish salary and the excellent insurance provided by my employer. But we will be isolated from extended family and we would be depriving our kids of getting to really know their grandparents (i.e. my parents), who are lovely and would be very loving (the grandparents on my wife's side are deceased). 

3. If we leave the UAE after, say, 5 years and move to Ireland, I predict we will have a net worth of around 650k EUR - enough to buy a house for cash, have 100k as walking around money, and 200k for a pension, and of course I would have to continue to work. But:

- due to taxes etc my take-home income would be slashed to around 55k per annum
- a household needs two incomes to live comfortably in Ireland I would say
- childcare is exorbitant and my wife might struggle to find work

So...that's my dilemma. This is really only an issue if we have a second child. We can afford the first one without issues. I'm agonizing over this as I basically want to be able to give a good life to my children and at the same time I don't want to be financially stressed or under pressure. I don't really know what to do.


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## PGF2016 (24 Sep 2016)

I assume this is a serious question. You are wealthier than 99% of the world and thus you can afford a second child.

The three big expenses in Ireland are mortgages, cars and childcare. You will only have a car to pay for.


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## Ihana (24 Sep 2016)

55k take home pay with no mortgage obligation is actually lots to live on in Ireland.  You would be better off than the vast majority of people.


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## rob oyle (24 Sep 2016)

There's much more than financial reasons to consider when deciding to bring more children into this world...
https://www.populationmatters.org/about/overview/
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...s-climate-change-make-it-immoral-to-have-kids

And in case anyone wants to respond with 'tell them in Africa/Asia'...
https://www.trocaire.org/whatwedo/climatejustice/drop-video-transcript


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## moneybox (24 Sep 2016)

Why do you feel the need to buy a half million pound house?? Plenty of houses available for far less.

If you think you can't afford a second child well then there is no hope for the rest of us. We are all doomed


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## PaddyBloggit (24 Sep 2016)

With what you are earning you could well afford to have those 5 children you are talking about!

I can't believe that you are in a dilemma over this.

Material goods seem to be high on your agenda. You are debating giving life to a human being as against having material wealth.

You are in an amazing position. Look at how long you would have to work in Ireland to have €120k after tax and you are getting that each year in the UAE.

Downsize your material expectations if you want to have more children.

Frankly, I'm gobsmacked at your 'dilemma'.


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## huskerdu (24 Sep 2016)

You are overthinking this completely.

You have a 10 week old baby, you should be enjoying this time with your wife and child. I hope the three of you are healthy and happy and I hope that continues.
You are financially in a strong position, so you should be spending time agonising over what the future will hold.
The decision on whether you want to have another child is one that will come naturally to the two of you together, next year, or the year after or the year after.
The decision on when your wife wants to resume her career or continue to be a full time parent is for her to decide, with you, when the time is right. Neither of you can predict how she will feel in a year, so us randomers on the internet cant possibly know.

Enjoy your life and see what it brings.


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## He-Man (25 Sep 2016)

Ihana said:


> 55k take home pay with no mortgage obligation is actually lots to live on in Ireland.  You would be better off than the vast majority of people.



It could be 55k; it could also be 45k. Not sure. Unlikely to be more than 55k. I do not really consider myself better off than the vast majority. I have 300k saved up and I am adding around 70k per year right now. I do not consider this my default state of affairs. I have had good fortune over the past four years but I cannot expect it to last indefinitely. I am not a doctor or engineer or lawyer. My skills are valued in the middle east but they would be less valuable in Ireland.



rob oyle said:


> There's much more than financial reasons to consider when deciding to bring more children into this world...
> https://www.populationmatters.org/about/overview/
> https://www.theguardian.com/comment...s-climate-change-make-it-immoral-to-have-kids
> 
> ...



Sorry, not interested in eco-religion or anti-natalism or whatever it is you're selling. I am educated enough to have considered and rejected such arguments.



PaddyBloggit said:


> With what you are earning you could well afford to have those 5 children you are talking about!
> 
> I can't believe that you are in a dilemma over this.
> 
> ...



Everyone should debate this (to not do so is naive and irresponsible imo); there'd be less misery in the world if people took proper stock. Material goods as such are not high on my agenda. But financial security and lack of financial stressors are, as is the ability to provide for my family in terms of education, vacations, an unstressed household, etc. I remember how hard my parents struggled to raise four of us in the 80s and 90s. I do not want to have to work until I'm in my 60s or even 50s if I can avoid it. Also, note there is no social safety net where I am. I don't have PRSI or a state pension for example. And neither does my wife.



huskerdu said:


> You are overthinking this completely.
> 
> You have a 10 week old baby, you should be enjoying this time with your wife and child. I hope the three of you are healthy and happy and I hope that continues.
> You are financially in a strong position, so you should be spending time agonising over what the future will hold.
> ...



Thanks 

More generally, I do not consider it strange to have a long hard think about finances before bringing a child (especially a second or third) into the world. A lot of people reproduce mindlessly and then struggle to make ends meet and encounter tensions in their marriages on account of this. As I mentioned, I don't care very much about *things* - rather security and peace of mind.

If I returned to Ireland with 500k, I could buy a house for 250k in a low cost county such as Tipperary (but there's no economy to speak of there) and have 250k left over, 200k of which I would want to be locking into a pension. Meaning I would be down to 50k as an emergency fund and ca. 50k per year to support a family of four. I really don't see how that can be considered wealthy; lots of people inherit houses or farms or what have you by default worth more than this and still would not be wealthy in terms of being financially independent.


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## PGF2016 (25 Sep 2016)

He-Man said:


> I do not really consider myself better off than the vast majority.



You should because you are. 



He-Man said:


> If I returned to Ireland with 500k, I could buy a house for 250k in a low cost county such as Tipperary (but there's no economy to speak of there) and have 250k left over, 200k of which I would want to be locking into a pension. Meaning I would be down to 50k as an emergency fund and ca. 50k per year to support a family of four. I really don't see how that can be considered wealthy; lots of people inherit houses or farms or what have you by default worth more than this and still would not be wealthy in terms of being financially independent.


50k is a massive emergency fund for someone with no mortgage. 

50k per year to support a family of four with a mortgage and running 2 brand new cars would not be wealthy. 
50k to support a family of four with no mortgage and modest cars should be more than adequate. Yes, you won't be financially independent. If you want financial independence you'll need to earn a lot more than 50k a year. 

I would consider a 40 year old with no mortgage, no debts and a solid income to be wealthy. Of course, there are people who wouldn't consider you wealthy unless you are a multi-millionaire.


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## Fella (25 Sep 2016)

I was earning about 160k a year after tax roughly ( main job and side income) up until very recently. I'm effectively mortgage free now with 300-400k in savings , I'm 35 two kids and take home pay for family is about 50k ( I'm taking a break from a side income job , maybe it will he permanent I haven't decided ). 
I'm very comfortable , with no mortgage or child care and been able to buy big purchases outright you can have no loans. If I wanted a 3rd or 4th kid I'm sure I could easily afford it. 
I think your position is similar to mine so you should easily afford it imo.


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## Easeler (25 Sep 2016)

This tread is making me nervous I have 4. I might need to try and put a few of them back in. We are 1 income family I earn 730 weekly and a company van. Child benefit covers mortgage and health insurance. 200 for shopping, and the rest is easily disposed of,but I think we are doing alright but  some people might think we are not.


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## He-Man (25 Sep 2016)

Fella said:


> I was earning about 160k a year after tax roughly ( main job and side income) up until very recently. I'm effectively mortgage free now with 300-400k in savings , I'm 35 two kids and take home pay for family is about 50k ( I'm taking a break from a side income job , maybe it will he permanent I haven't decided ).
> I'm very comfortable , with no mortgage or child care and been able to buy big purchases outright you can have no loans. If I wanted a 3rd or 4th kid I'm sure I could easily afford it.
> I think your position is similar to mine so you should easily afford it imo.



When you state you are mortgage free and have 3-400k in savings, are you including the value of your private pension in that? If yes, I take some comfort from your post. If you have extra monies in a private pension, you're very far ahead of me.


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## He-Man (25 Sep 2016)

PGF2016 said:


> I would consider a 40 year old with no mortgage, no debts and a solid income to be wealthy. Of course, there are people who wouldn't consider you wealthy unless you are a multi-millionaire.



Yeah to be honest I am one of those who wouldn't consider someone wealthy unless they basically could afford to stop working and live off their existing wealth. I just don't think anyone can rightfully consider someone relying on income from a salary as wealthy. Income this year might be solid as you say, but what if it dries up or were to halve? That isn't wealth - it's ticking along nicely until you aren't.


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## Fella (25 Sep 2016)

He-Man said:


> When you state you are mortgage free and have 3-400k in savings, are you including the value of your private pension in that? If yes, I take some comfort from your post. If you have extra monies in a private pension, you're very far ahead of me.



I don't have a private pension, I work in civil service so will get a state pension ( be small I'm sure as not on huge money) 
I invest some of my money in investment trusts, I regularly top this up.


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## He-Man (25 Sep 2016)

Thanks. I suppose a key difference is that I am not contributing to PRSI and as things stand will not qualify for a pension from the state.


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## xoxoxo (25 Sep 2016)

Just curious as to why 'wifey' as you refer to her as, quit her job as opposed to taking mat instead and then deciding on the best course of action. Staying at home with a child does not suit everyone. Also, 'wifey' is not unemployed, as you refer to her as, but working very hard at home all day in what can be a very stressful and lonely environment. She is also living in What can be a very isolating country and society with no family support.


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## rob oyle (25 Sep 2016)

He-Man said:


> Sorry, not interested in eco-religion or anti-natalism or whatever it is you're selling. I am educated enough to have considered and rejected such arguments.


Interesting that you reject environmentalism and the anthropocentric impact on the planet and yet believe it's 'naive and irresponsible' not to discuss materialistic tendencies. Are there macro issues too big to be considered or maybe you're sufficiently educated to disregard them in your own decision making?


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## Steven Barrett (25 Sep 2016)

Kids are expensive. A survey carried out last year claimed it costs €105,000 to raise a kid to 21. But parents always manage, you go without yourself so you can pay for things for your kids. 

You honestly have no reason to be worrying about the financial implications of having a 2nd child. What you want to think about is what a 2nd child will bring to your family. For one, it will balance things out. Just having one child (I know it's a miracle for some couples just to have one) usually means they are spoilt as your attention is always on them, you have more disposable income and they are spending more time around adults and aren't mixing with other kids as much. It is good for them to have someone to fight with!!


Steven
www.bluewaterfp.ie


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## He-Man (25 Sep 2016)

xoxoxo said:


> Just curious as to why 'wifey' as you refer to her as, quit her job as opposed to taking mat instead and then deciding on the best course of action. Staying at home with a child does not suit everyone. Also, 'wifey' is not unemployed, as you refer to her as, but working very hard at home all day in what can be a very stressful and lonely environment. She is also living in What can be a very isolating country and society with no family support.


Condescending and sensitive much?
There is only 'mat leave', as you say, of 45 days (including weekends) in the country where we live. She took all the 'mat leave', as you say. Then she decided she would like to be a full time mother. Is that ok with you? Why assume she's alone? Do you think the UAE is like Saudi Arabia or something? She has more friends and family here than I do. Not remotely lonely.


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## He-Man (25 Sep 2016)

rob oyle said:


> Interesting that you reject environmentalism and the anthropocentric impact on the planet and yet believe it's 'naive and irresponsible' not to discuss materialistic tendencies. Are there macro issues too big to be considered or maybe you're sufficiently educated to disregard them in your own decision making?



I don't reject it; I just don't see why you profer this unsolicited perspective while ignoring my actual question when I am asking about finances on a financial forum. Do you send those articles to everyone you know in real life who might be thinking of having a child, such as your siblings, acquaintances or colleagues? Besides, the author of your Guardian piece comes down on the side of natalism. So for all the thought he put into those chopped trees, he's effectively undifferentiated from those who put no thought into them.


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## PaddyBloggit (25 Sep 2016)

He-Man said:


> I do not want to have to work until I'm in my 60s or even 50s if I can avoid it. Also, note there is no social safety net where I am. I don't have PRSI or a state pension for example. And neither does my wife.



Looking at your future expectations I think you'd be as well off to stick to the one child and forget about number two.

You'll not be able to retire in your 50's if you're rearing a family - college, marriages etc.


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## rob oyle (25 Sep 2016)

You posted on a public forum looking for opinions and now you're getting 'unsolicited perspectives'?!?

Welcome to the age of the internet fella!


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## Bolter (25 Sep 2016)

as a mother and a woman, I'm looking at this from the female angle. your wife is 34 .from a purely physical health point of view she should have another child (if ye are going to do this) within the next two years. You are a primagravida after 35. ( it's not impossible but it does get harder. I know :/

 It sounds corny but you won't regret having another child. 
It's easy to move kids around until they are four. Once they start school not so easy.
Our kids see their grandparents at least once a week.its a lovely bond to have and in my opinion priceless. Ye have a great income. Ye sound like very responsible people and I admire you for wanting the best for your wife and children. If ye can handle the weather and the crap healthcare, Ireland is a great place to rear kids.
You cannot put a value on the bond with family and community. Good luck with whatever choice ye make.


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## demoivre (26 Sep 2016)

Allow €100k for *third* level education for two kids imo. If they can attend college and live at home there are big savings to be made as rent, in my experience with two at college away from home, is the biggest expense.


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## Purple (26 Sep 2016)

If you can live mortgage free that’s a massive thing.

You are talking about moving back to Ireland in your late 30’s or early 40’s.

At that stage you can buy a house for €450k and put €100k into a pension. Keep the other €100k to hand and if you get sorted out with a job etc then you can put it into your pension later.

Remember that there is a social safety net here so the imperative to save is not so great. You will get children’s allowance and you get your wife’s tax credits. You will get an old age pension.

You are right to plan these things and to work towards having a low stress life financially but with a take-home income of around €1000 per week and no mortgage or childcare costs you will be well able to live very comfortably. I wouldn’t worry too much about retiring in your 50’s or 60’s. People like to work as they get older so maybe plan to work less but not retire. It doesn’t have to be one or the other.


You have lived away from home for years and in doing so have sacrificed time with family and friends but have put yourself in a position of relative financial security. Never apologise to anyone for that; hard work and sacrifice are things to be proud of.  The fact that you live in a country with no social safety net means that you have to be more self reliant than people living in Ireland. That’s probably the reason some people here don’t get why you are planning and asking these questions.


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## He-Man (27 Sep 2016)

Thank you Purple for your understanding and excellent advice.


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