# Should I stay in teaching or should I go?



## Bigbird (25 Nov 2012)

Hi there,

Working in teaching for over 5 years now but without a contract.  I'm sick of being broke.  Should I get a contract then I will have a chance of securing a contract of indefinite duration however, with cutbacks I'm not sure if that will materialise. The money for subbing is quite good but it's the lack of security I find unbearable.  Should I bow out or would it be a shame considering I trained for over 5 years in higher education?


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## Brendan Burgess (25 Nov 2012)

It really depends on what alternatives are available to you.

Why not apply for other jobs and see how you get on? 

Brendan


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## monagt (25 Nov 2012)

> Working in teaching for over 5 years



If you really like it then stay with it..............quality of life issue.


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## serotoninsid (25 Nov 2012)

Bigbird said:


> Working in teaching for over 5 years now ...I'm sick of being broke...The money for subbing is quite good



Are there breaks in between your stints of subbing?  Seems to be conflicting info in relation to $.  Can you clarify?


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## Bigbird (9 May 2013)

Yeah there can be big breaks in subbing stints especially after Easter as a lot of the winter time illnesses disappear as the summer rolls in. I'm still hanging in waiting for some kind of break.  A lot of principals are telling me to hang on and i'll get something eventually.  I have a few kids so i'm busy with that, however, I really need to be working.


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## dereko1969 (9 May 2013)

What other jobs have you applied for since last November?


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## Bigbird (15 May 2013)

Zero! As I said i'm hanging on in there for now.  The money per day for subbing amounts to e195.00 gross.  So when u look at childcare costs and take that away then it is kinda worth it however, it's the random nature of the calls can be problematic. I suppose there are pros and cons to subbing.  My hubby feels if I got a job in the private sector then it wouldn't be worth it as childcare costs would eat up the bulk of my wages. I feel that it all depends on what kinda jobs are out there.


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## STEINER (15 May 2013)

I know nothing about teaching.  I have some teacher friends.  They went through what you went through with the subbing and they got permanent, but admittedly this was 5 or 6 years ago.  If you like teaching stick at it.  You have over 5 years teaching experience which should stand to you.


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## Bigbird (13 May 2014)

Thanks STEINER!  The only trouble is getting loans etc., is problematic due to lack of consistency. Also, childcare can be annoying as good quality childcare is expensive and flexibility is an issue.  And finally not knowing if you will make ends meet is stressful .  That's only the tip of the ice burg in relation to the cons. I have to say the CONs out way the PROs!


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## Dermot (13 May 2014)

Have a son who has an honours degree in woodwork and technical graphics. He is 2 years qualified and has sent out over 250 CV's in that time.  He has got less than 20 days subbing in that period of time.  It is pretty much a male teacher subject so no maternity leave cover.  It is pretty soul destroying for him.  Most of his classmates are in the same position.  If he ever gets a run of subbing or a temporary work he will 6 or 7 years + in a temporary capacity before getting made permanent. 
You could be lucky and be well in with a principal in secondary schools or a priest in national schools.


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## homecoming (14 May 2014)

Plenty of teaching jobs in the UAE, not everyone's cup of tea but a chance to earn a reasonable living and to get out of a rut. In Abu Dhabi alone there will be a need for a further 100 new schools to fill an extra 146k child places by 2020 and schools are going up everywhere. See the Abu Dhabi National Newspaper 8 Jan 2013. Plenty of Irish people here and a social scene if you want to mix with your own. Just a thought for anyone interested. Good luck.


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## Sandals (14 May 2014)

Dermot said:


> You could be lucky and be well in with a principal in secondary schools



Personally, that day is gone, in my opinion, 

my cv was once picked off the pile and my first interview was a walk around the gardens for a full hours yr contact and followed by future years. Needless to say I got a shock 6 yrs later when I did another interview in another school as more local. Grilled to an inch of my life.

Times are tough when there is the interview process for the teacher training placements from college.....


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## Marion (15 May 2014)

Dermot

I am sorry to hear this about your son. 

I spoke with some young teachers yesterday and the tale is not good!

One of our extremely talented young teachers (replaced a maternity leave) is on her way to Australia this summer. She has tried to secure decent hours here over the last number of years but they are not available. She is looking forward to a new beginning perhaps in a new vocational area in Australia. 

Another very talented and able young teacher told me that the qualification took 7 years to become a teacher (art) and that out of 30 in the class only 2 were in employment. This teacher has a contract this year for 14 hours. Last year 12 hours. I know that in reality this teacher puts in over 40 hour week - outside of work done at home. 

This teacher also mentioned that only wealthy students could now afford to do teaching as it required parents to subsidise them to pay rent in their place of employment as they had so few hours of work in second-level schools. This is so sad.

There is a female Woodwork teacher where I work and 3 male teachers - all in their late 20s early 30s.(Ish) 

So they won't be retiring anytime soon. They all all on CID contracts. Not sure if they are on full hours or not.


There are many other young teachers on the staff who have miserable hours. It's dreadful. I honestly don't know how they can live on these hours.


I wish your son well. It's very difficult at second-level teaching to secure a full-time job.

Marion


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## 110quests (15 May 2014)

The hours and conditions of young teachers are dreadful, reading these stories and hearing of others. What has happened in second level that the situation is as stated. Student numbers are greater than ever, subjects being covered for exams likewise. How has timetabling changed so much? 

Previously 

Teachers had main subject(s) and another ancillary one which seemed to fill full time hours. What has changed so much?  Are the degree choices not varied enough to allow the newly qualified cover a small variety of subjects . Or what regulations are the dept. laying down , giving rise to this frustration and worthlessness of educated young people ?

The second level unions are extremely vocal on particular issues. Why don't they fight for this cause whether at Dept. or managerial level . The unions sold out on the new entrant pay level and the guess is that CEC members have full hours full pay permanent jobs etc

I do know of a situation where a permanent position was created by a principal and officially sanctioned by dept.  where the principal knew the teacher was emmigrating during following summer hols but her departure was deemed a career break and anyone applying for the position will get temporary place only. This will continue for five years. Was that a favour or what? plus it deprives someone of a prospect of permanent position. More of this going on I wonder.


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## Marion (15 May 2014)

As a teacher at second-level, I can dispute your one main subject with one ancillary example.

I have taught (seventeen)17 different subjects. All of these had to be researched, most with no reference books and just a bare outline of learning outcomes. Many modules were given to me with 2 days' notice before classes began! Many of these were outside my knowledge base. I can assure you, I spent many sleepless nights!

I had to develop the coursework, the assignments, the skills demonstrations, the portfolios,  the exams, the marking schemes, the marking. Hundreds of hours of work for each module - that's before the teaching! All at level 5 - leaving Cert equivalent. 

Of course, this doesn't include the interviews, the registration, the induction,  the IV process and uploading of results to Fetac! Oh, and the mountain of paperwork! Let's not forget that!

I am a second-level teacher who teaches at Further Education Level. Twenty two (22) hours teaching. Note the word teaching!

Teachers have been fighting for better conditions for many years. But to deaf ears. 

The TUI has failed and ignored Fetac Teachers at second Level and continues to fail and ignore Fetac teachers at second-level.

Many in the media say that second-level teachers have a cushy number for life. I say, they should walk the talk.

I think that now there is some hope that second-level positions will be based on merit rather than on political factors. I hope I am not naive on this preposition. 

Marion


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## 110quests (15 May 2014)

Marion, I do not attempt to diminish in any way what you do or have done over time. 

The point I was making was that at secondary level the norm in the past was that teachers taught two main subjects (their degree subjects) plus an ancillary subject which when spread across various levels and exam years gave them full hours etc.

I wondered what has changed this situation. I had three family members working in second level and my own children , who left second level not many years ago, went through the system where the above operated for the majority of time.

Keep up the good work !


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## Marion (15 May 2014)

Hi 110quests

The norm in the past is no longer what is required at present. 

I can tell you that second-level teaching will never be what it was like 20 years ago. I would not recommend it now as a career to any family member or friend.

Having said that, I am confident in what I do, and I do what I do well. My students are really happy with me and their results and that's what it is all about at the end of the day! I am confident enough to give them evaluation sheets on my performance as a teacher and their learning. And I love reading their responses. 

Further Education will be big business in the future. I would recommend it for students.

Marion


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## Dermot (15 May 2014)

Marion.  I really appreciate your comments and I feel the sincerity in them. 

cashier.  He did do 4 months in London.  The hours varied but never a full week. The rent for a room was 585 Stg per month.  The travelling exs were 252 Stg per month.  He had a huge amount of prep work for classes as he did not get near the hours that he was promised in his main subjects and was often assigned other subjects that he had not even done at school.
He takes preparation very seriously.
I do not think he will go abroad for a while.

Yes I had to subsidise this 4 months and he felt very embarrassed about this.

Thanks again for the comments


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## RainyDay (22 May 2014)

Marion said:


> I am confident enough to give them evaluation sheets on my performance as a teacher and their learning. And I love reading their responses.


Excellent idea. It's a fairly standard approach is any kind of professional training environment, so I always wondered why teachers/schools don't do more of it.

Is it anyway common? Do you find many of your peers doing the same thing?


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## Jim2007 (22 May 2014)

Dermot said:


> Marion.  I really appreciate your comments and I feel the sincerity in them.
> 
> cashier.  He did do 4 months in London.  The hours varied but never a full week. The rent for a room was 585 Stg per month.  The travelling exs were 252 Stg per month.  He had a huge amount of prep work for classes as he did not get near the hours that he was promised in his main subjects and was often assigned other subjects that he had not even done at school.
> He takes preparation very seriously.
> ...



Any chance he speaks German or would be willing to learn???   It is almost impossible to hire craft or technical teachers over here.  It is not unusual for schools to offer salaries of around 100K - 110K for such positions.  To put that into perspective, an civil engineer 5 years qualified could expect to earn around 80K or so.


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## Marion (24 May 2014)

RainyDay said:


> Excellent idea. It's a fairly standard approach is any kind of professional training environment, so I always wondered why teachers/schools don't do more of it.
> 
> Is it anyway common? Do you find many of your peers doing the same thing?



No. I suspect that it's unique in my college - this is evidence based as i asked my students (I teach more than half of the entire student population) if they were provided with this opportunity elsewhere. Nobody in my college knows that I do this (apart from the students).

I am used to evaluations as I have had very good experience in teaching teachers for educational bodies and also one industry involved in education. (I doubt anybody in my college knows this either and here I am confessing all on a public discussion board  )

The college does a general evaluation.

Marion


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## RainyDay (27 May 2014)

Marion said:


> No. I suspect that it's unique in my college - this is evidence based as i asked my students (I teach more than half of the entire student population) if they were provided with this opportunity elsewhere. Nobody in my college knows that I do this (apart from the students).
> 
> I am used to evaluations as I have had very good experience in teaching teachers for educational bodies and also one industry involved in education. (I doubt anybody in my college knows this either and here I am confessing all on a public discussion board  )
> 
> ...



Thanks for the clarification, and congrats on the innovative approach - pity others don't take it on also.


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## Purple (27 May 2014)

RainyDay said:


> Thanks for the clarification, and congrats on the innovative approach - pity others don't take it on also.



+1 superb idea. 
I doubt too many managers in businesses or other organisations (private or public) would be willing to put themselves under such scrutiny voluntarily!


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## MugsGame (27 May 2014)

Marion said:


> Further Education will be big business in the future. I would recommend it for students.



And yet the vast majority of young lecturers I know in third level institutions have exactly the same problem as recently qualified second level teachers - part time hours often timetabled so securing supplementary employment is not practical, no summer pay, insufficient remuneration for the prep and assessment time involved outside contact hours, no security of tenure, no pension entitlement and yet subject to the pension levy.


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## Marion (27 May 2014)

"I would recommend it for students".

I meant the students _taking _the Fetac courses. 400 CAO points available if they achieve 8 distinctions at Fetac 5 in the programmes - 80% plus.  Typically they take 9 or 10 programmes. It definitely prepares them for progression to Level 6 in FET Centres, IT colleges or Universities.

Marion


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