# Work Grievance



## ArthurMcB (4 Feb 2021)

Hi,

Should I initiate the grievance process at work? Here is the situation.

My manager threatened me by saying that with taking sick leave may result in a Performance Improvement Plan.

At the time that he said it i had just returned from 1 week of certified sick leave and people would have had to pick up the slack while i was out.

When i returned from this sick leave i was moved off the project.

I subsequently got sick again a few months later and was certified off for a few days.

Then in my year end appraisal i was given a poor rating and told i was being put on a PIP. I strongly dispute some of the feedback i have been given.

I believe that, based on what my manager said and based on the year end feedback and PIP, that I have been penalised for taking sick leave and i am thinking of raising a grievance. 

I would greatly appreciate any advice that might be out there.


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## Leo (4 Feb 2021)

Have a read of this advice. 

My sense is that two certified absences would not constitute a pattern sufficient to justify termination. 

I think they employer is on shaky ground here and would be scrutinising the terms of any PIP in great detail. Try to ascertain whether your performance when in the office was meeting expectations and it was just the fact that you were absent that resulted in the poor feedback. 

Document every meeting / conversation with your manager, send minutes and ask them to confirm accuracy so that you can build a record of meeting performance expectations.


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## Leper (4 Feb 2021)

If there ever were a case for trade union representation, this is it. I'd love to be representing you.


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## cremeegg (4 Feb 2021)

ArthurMcB said:


> Hi,
> 
> Should I initiate the grievance process at work? Here is the situation.
> 
> ...



In my experience it is not so difficult to prove constructive or unfair dismissal. The problem is what then, OK you get an award of a few thousand Euro and feel vindicated, and then ??

While every case is different, you may be better ploughing on where you are despite the issues, things are as likely to change for the better as not.


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## ArthurMcB (4 Feb 2021)

The difficulty is...

My employer may be able to stand over their performance appraisal, to some extent.

I feel that some of the feeback is inaccurate/incorrect.
From a procedural perspective, i was only given the various feedbacks at my yr end conversation and indirectly by my manager and this is when i was also told i was going on a PIP. Most of the feedback is from other  individuals that i had worked with. I would have expected an oportunity to discuss the feedback with the feedback giver.

Iv read the unfair dismissals act and i think i might have a case under penalisation. 

Id be interested to hear peoples view or questions.


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## ArthurMcB (4 Feb 2021)

@cremeegg   i rekon i can find a similar job without too long of a wait. 
@Leper there isnt a trade union per se as i work in financial services.


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## LS400 (4 Feb 2021)

ArthurMcB said:


> At the time that he said it i had just returned from 1 week of certified sick leave and people would have had to pick up the slack while i was out.



Hes not wrong, this is what happens when people are out sick. Some companies can manage it better




Leper said:


> If there ever were a case for trade union representation, this is it. I'd love to be representing you



And this is why I have disdain for modern trade unions of today.
You/they just swan in with a big stick and do everything in their power to bring companies to their knees, without looking at the facts, as facts are meaningless where trade unions of today are concerned.

I run a small company, if an employee is out sick, others need to pick up the pace. Thats life today in a small business. Employees have been out sick, some very seriously ill over the years, and Im talking months, I work around that so, don't throw the nonsense about people getting ill, and employers do not accept that ect ect.

We had a trade union come into my place of work many years ago, some of the employees decided to form together to teach the bosses a lesson on strength, and what havoc a trade union can bring to the company. I and a small selection of good lads rejected such a move. The union came in, and with in a few years, the all left, I run the company now, no union,  with the same motley crew who knew the damage unions of today can bring to a great company. 


Grievance, give me strength.


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## Leper (4 Feb 2021)

Act fairly and any disdain for trade unions disappears. If there's nothing to represent, trade unions remain quiet.


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## dereko1969 (4 Feb 2021)

ArthurMcB said:


> The difficulty is...
> 
> My employer may be able to stand over their performance appraisal, to some extent.
> 
> ...


If the first mention of the need for a PIP was at year end then they have to prove that the issue only arose between mid-year and year-end, if performance issues arose before then it's not fair not to have mentioned it at your mid-year review.

The problem you face is that you accept that *some *of the feedback is accurate, is that enough to put you on a PIP?


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## dereko1969 (4 Feb 2021)

LS400 said:


> Hes not wrong, this is what happens when people are out sick. Some companies can manage it better
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It seems to me that Leper was looking at the Facts (as presented as such by the OP). If we take him as honest then it seems like a perfect scenario for appropriate representation (be that lawyer or Trade Union Rep) to support someone who seems to have been punished for the simple fact of being sick, during a pandemic?

Do you not think that on the facts as presented the OP has a rightful grievance? You seem to accept the case above "that's life", did you punish employees for being sick or are you just using this thread to have a go at trade unions in general?


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## ArthurMcB (4 Feb 2021)

@dereko1969 i dont think the valid feedback is anywhere near PIP territory.

I am going to initiate the grievance process in tandem to appealing year end as theyre two processes albeit related in my case.

I have consulted a solicitor and they feel that there is clesr breach of the unfair dismissals act under penalisation and there may possibly be another legal angle to it. But i think it all depends on the strength of my case and evidence.

My company does have a disciplinary process for people taking too much leave but my leave doesnt fall into the category.

My manager made a threat when he made those comments and he has followed through on it and in doing so has penalised me unfairly. 

A PIP has real and serious consequences both to my career and my compensation.


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## LS400 (4 Feb 2021)

dereko1969 said:


> did you punish employees for being sick



Your having a laugh, right. That's the usual default line trotted out though.



dereko1969 said:


> Do you not think that on the facts as presented the OP has a rightful grievance?




No, I don't. I think posts encouraging this nonsense are doing them no favours at all.



Leper said:


> If there's nothing to represent, trade unions remain quiet.



That's the Leper sense of humor. 



dereko1969 said:


> are you just using this thread to have a go at trade union



Would you prefer I didn't mention the Word Trade Union. I didnt bring up the TU comment, I replied to to the comment.

I don't like Trade Unions of today. I have never pretended to like them. I see them for what they are. I've see the destruction they bring.



ArthurMcB said:


> When i returned from this sick leave i was moved off the project.



I have deadlines to meet, Some expect the world to stop turning on their grounds, and that's where I see a problem.


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## ArthurMcB (4 Feb 2021)

I actually didnt care that i was moved off the project and i accept that my absence hurt the team. 

I dont accept been penalised in this manner for being sick.


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## Clamball (4 Feb 2021)

If you were put on a PIP then it must document what performance needs to improve.  If it does not mention something like improving your level of absences then it can’t be the sick leave they are trying to fire you on.  Looking at the PIP can you improve on what they are asking?  Is it specific enough?

But you have the advice of your lawyer so I would go with his recommendations.


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## ArthurMcB (4 Feb 2021)

I havent seen the PIP yet as i am appealing it.

I can be fairly sure they wont mention absence in it as they are clear in that the PIP results from underperformance and not absence.

I disagree however with material aspects of the feedback that is driving my rating and i have supporting evidence.

In light of the threat my manager made i feel i am been penalised and possibly being forced out. I no longer trust my superiors and cannot see how I can continue working with them.


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## DeeKie (5 Feb 2021)

In my employer a PIP means that they are trying to manage you out.


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## ArthurMcB (5 Feb 2021)

@DeeKie Could that fall under constructive dismissal if it can be proved that the PIP is not warranted and if it can be proved that your manager threatened a PIP for getting sick?


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## Purple (5 Feb 2021)

@ArthurMcB, if you were in fact punished for being out sick then you certainly have a grievance and a strong case. The appraisals and feedback from colleagues are a different matter. It would be very hard to prove these were not legitimate and going down that road could have a significant impact on your mental health. 

The problem with Trade Unions in the private sector is that while they can be very helpful in situations like this they tend to become corrosive and cause longer term harm to the viability of the business. I have seen many good and prosperous companies closed by their Unions. 

That is why there is a fear of them within companies trading in the real economy and they tend to mainly operate in the State sector and the protected and less open sectors of the economy (the sections which to not compete internationally).


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## ArthurMcB (5 Feb 2021)

Thanks Purple. Theres no fear that my employer will close down over this. Theyre a global behemoth!
Theres no relevant trade union that im aware of given the industry. I wish there was!
 The feedback that im disputing is specific and is material to their decision and i have evidence to dispute it. I wont let it affect my health in any way. Im trying to remain objective in this and so be it if im not successful.
I think its a hard one to prove in some ways because there are 3 individuals all giving me poor feedback - im sure i sound like a terrible employee. I just think, and maybe im paranoid, that theres been an orchestrated attempt made to penalise me. 
If i felt that my performance last yr wasnt up to scratch or i had taken the mick id accept it but this isnt the case.
Another individual in my team took long term sick leave last yr for 3 months and i suspect management werent happy with this given the impact on the team. I feel there is just a dim view of people takinbg sick leave which i understand in a lot of ways. However my sick leave was reasonable in length and was certified.
Of course they will argue that my PIP is nothing to do with sick leave. But given what my manager said and given the tenouos nature of some of the feedback i would say otherwise.


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## ArthurMcB (5 Feb 2021)

The solicitor i spoke to previously was a 1 hour initial consultation. I could go back to that solicitor i suppose but does anyone have any recommedations for a dublin based employment law solicitor?

I need help navigating the grievance procecess and writiing the grievance letter.
Do i ask them questions in my grievance letter?
Do i quote the law?
Can i ask them for a "without prejudice" discussion?
How should i time all of this?
Do i go i to my complaint in detail or keep it high level?
How to manage potentially going on sivk leave?
What if i am asked to see their occupational doctor?

There seems to be many tactical decisions i need to think about and i need an expert to guide me.


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## jim (5 Feb 2021)

If you can show that the year end process was in some way unfair or unreasonable.

If you can show that some of the feedback is not accurate etc.

If you can prove your manager said what you are saying they said.

Then you have a very strong case.

I would try and gather plenty of evidence to dispute the feedback where possible. That is your best bet.

If a colleague was present when your manager made that statement then they should be a witness.

Being put on a PIP can indicate that you are being pushed out (not always). If so, this sounds like constructive dismissal to me.


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## Leo (5 Feb 2021)

ArthurMcB said:


> I need help navigating the grievance procecess and writiing the grievance letter.



Ask your employer to give you a copy of their disciplinary procedures. That should outline how the full process will work and where best to put your case forward. If you received positive feedback in previous year-end or mid-year evals, gather all that. 

They should have this readily available given they are a global behemoth as you say. Failure to provide this to you in a timely manner will significantly weaken any case you might take. Any failure on their part to fulfil their obligations within those procedures will likewise significantly impact their ability to pursue.



ArthurMcB said:


> How to manage potentially going on sivk leave?
> What if i am asked to see their occupational doctor?



This you need to be careful of, as per the Citizen's Information link earlier, repeated absences, even when medically certified can be grounds for dismissal. The company can successfully argue that your health issues make you unsuitable for the role. The bar there will require more than two absences in a year though! If you have no underlying health issue that might render you unfit for that particular role, you should have no fear of an assessment by your company's chosen doctor. They are not in the business of faking reports to suit the company. I've had two cases as a manager where we involved the company doctor to carry out such an assessment, in both cases the doctor just reported their opinion based on the assessment without influence.


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## ArthurMcB (5 Feb 2021)

Thanks Leo. Iv reviewed the Grievance procedure and will certainly follow it.

Thats very helpful Leo re occupational doctor. I dont have an underlying condition thankfully.


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## Leper (5 Feb 2021)

Purple said:


> @ArthurMcB,
> 
> The problem with Trade Unions in the private sector is that while they can be very helpful in situations like this they tend to become corrosive and cause longer term harm to the viability of the business. I have seen many good and prosperous companies closed by their Unions.
> 
> .



Whatever trades unions are, they are not cannibalistic (as in eating up their own members) and  companies that closed were due to bad management.


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## Purple (5 Feb 2021)

Leper said:


> Whatever trades unions are, they are not cannibalistic (as in eating up their own members) and  companies that closed were due to bad management.


We'll have to agree to differ on that one.


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## ArthurMcB (8 Apr 2021)

Just a quick update:

I submitted a grievance two months ago but i have not yet spoken to anyone about it. Although hr did acknowledge it.

Is this potentially contributing to constructive dismissal?


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## Peanuts20 (8 Apr 2021)

In the multi-national I work for we are encourage to get colleagues feedback as part of our appraisal system. In this case, is seeking feedback from your colleagues or a manager seeking feedback from your team mates part of the process or was it a solo run by the manager in question? In other words, did he follow the correct internal processes?

In terms of the PIP, it can be the start of managing someone out the door but in my case (as a manager) they are also a black mark against me because it suggests I've not managed someone's performance adequately. Has the PIP been shared with you and what is the plan on it to get back to a "better performer" in your managers eyes?

In terms of the grievance, any resignation prior to the process being completed potentially can weaken any case for constructive dismissal. In a large multi-national it is not unusual for these things to take months as "processes" are followed and the case gets passed around. You should contact HR and ask for an update.


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## dereko1969 (8 Apr 2021)

ArthurMcB said:


> Just a quick update:
> 
> I submitted a grievance two months ago but i have not yet spoken to anyone about it. Although hr did acknowledge it.
> 
> Is this potentially contributing to constructive dismissal?


The Grievance Procedure manual should have timelines in it, I would have thought. You should follow up by email so there's a record of it. As Peanuts says was the PIP shared with you, it seemed strange to me at the time that you were appealing something you didn't have sight of!


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## Clamball (8 Apr 2021)

Yes, if their procedure is clear that they will progress promptly and not leave people hanging.

So you are still working there but feel you are being pushed to resign?  They have said they will put you on a PIP but this has not started yet.  Your year end review was poor and feedback from 3 individuals was poor.  Your manager was not happy you took sick leave and you think this has impacted her view of you and she agrees with the 3 individuals your performance was poor.

Being a large company they have policies and procedures.  If these are not being followed then you can speak up and say you are being treated unfairly due to this.

1.  Sick leave, if your manager thinks you should not have been on sick leave volunteer to go to occupational health doctor and let him give the company his opinion.  Just be factual about it.  Hey boss you think I should not have taken sick leave that my doctor said I should.  Please refer me to company doctor so we can clear this up once and for all.  I am happy to accept the findings of the company doctor.  Then after conversation with boss send a quick email following up on few basic points.  Follow up every 2 weeks until she acts or says no need to take it further.  Then every time it is brought up you can say you said there was no need for more action so why are you bringing it back up, do you want to reopen the topic?

2. Poor feedback at end of year review.  Sounds like this was just dumped on you at the meeting so I bet your company procedure says nothing should be a “surprise” at end of year review.   So you could go back and say I was surprised by this feedback at the review.  I had not been alerted during the year that I was slipping on task C when I was under the impression that tasks A & B were a priority as we discussed at our 1:1 during the year.  If doing task C was a priority I would have had no issue doing it if I had been aware.  So I feel the negative feedback in the review was unfair since I was not given the opportunity to improve during the year due to not being told.  I don’t want people being frustrated with my performance when it could have been rectified if communicated properly.   What you are doing here is showing how reasonable you are, how you were blindsided, how the process was not followed, and why the review did not follow the company procedure.

3.  Your complaint or appeal to HR. Obviously follow the grievance procedure to the letter, if HR have not reverted to you in 2 months it probably is failing their process in their policy so do get back to HR saying...  the grievance procedure says the process will move without delay, or the process says the person who raised the grievance is kept in the loop, and that while you are reasonable and understand delays can occur you do need an update and the follow up with an email every 2 weeks pointing out how it is becoming more and more unfair to you.

So your whole tone should be I am a reasonable person, I was surprised at these issues, I am very happy to follow company process, if issued had been brought up in the regular 1:1 I would have put a plan in place with my manager how to rectify.  Just avoid complaining about anyone in the company or whining.


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## ArthurMcB (8 Apr 2021)

Thanks @Clamball , I think you are spot on.

I was blinsided and furthermore some of the feedback is not valid. Some of the feedback relates to my taking sick leave and the impact this had on wider team (i should not be penalised for this). We re talkin a few days certified sick leave.

PIP was not mentioned in mid year and the feedback, imo, doesnt justify such a serious sanction. Additionally  i was never given the chance to discuss the feedback with the feedback givers or indeed defend myself.

My manager, esrlier in the year, threatened me with a pip re taking sick leave.

Grievance procedure doesnt specifiy timelines but at this stage its gone on too long and is inherently unfair.

My manager shouted at me in year end, to not challenge their feedback. This i think is bullying behaviour.

Iv seen occupational health twice and they agree with my GPs assessment.

@dereko1969  PIP has not yet been formulated or shared as I am appealing the very foundation on which its being foisted on me.

@Peanuts20 it wasnt a solo run by my manager at all. Was more an orchestrated effort by my managers manager imo. Few people gave feedback and i accept some of the feedback. However some of it isnt valid or accurate or indeed severe enough to warrant a pip. In my year end appeal i have tried to provide evidence to contradict the invalid feedback.

All in all, i believe i am being constructively dismissed.


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## Peanuts20 (8 Apr 2021)

In order to prove constructive dismissal (and the onus is on you to prove this), you will have to be able to show either breech of contract of bullying or unreasonable behaviour by the employer where you were left with no other position other then to resign. An employer does not "constructively dismiss" you, you resign and have to prove you had no choice.

You accept that some of the negative feedback on your performance was correct. Hence there seems to be grounds for your employer saying that your performance was not up to scratch and not in line with your peers. Potentially a PIP may be OTT for this but does being put on a PIP not give you an opportunity to improve your performance? Were you to do everything that was on that PIP, what would next years review look like.?

You need to chase up on where your grievance is, and do so on writing. 2 months is way too long for at least some action to take place. However the danger for you here is if you resign and your employer can show action was happening on the grievance and you did not wait for it to complete, it will make any case you take more challenging

Why did your managers manager take a dislike to you over a few days sick? What was the impact on his teams performance of this?

Sorry if this is sounding cold but from what is on here so far, regardless of what you may think, I'd say your employer could put up a reasonable counter-arguement in any tribunal. Here is someone who is not a top performer, who has acknowledged some of the negative feedback, who has not given time for a comprehensive grievance process to be followed through etc etc..


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## DeeKie (13 Apr 2021)

I think it’s the treatment of you on sick leave that’s the issue for the employer, and the behaviour of management to you being sick. I would raise this independently of the PIP. I suspect that the PIP will not pursued then. You will have to work hard on any issues raised in the mooted PIP that are valid.

if it were me I’d also consider my long term future there. Hope you are fully recovered.


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## ArthurMcB (13 Apr 2021)

Thanks DeeKie.

I have raised two seperate issues. 1 is my appeal of the PIP and 2 is my grievance. They are two seperate processes although they are related to 6each other.

Still waiting to have my grievance discussed, in spite of me submitting it over 2 months ago.


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## Thirsty (13 Apr 2021)

Just remember in all of this that HR is not your friend; they represent the company, not you.

Step carefully in every meeting that you have or document you write.


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## Acorn22 (13 Jul 2021)

Thirsty said:


> Just remember in all of this that HR is not your friend; they represent the company, not you.
> 
> Step carefully in every meeting that you have or document you write.


ArthurMcB - Any update on any of this?


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## ArthurMcB (13 Jul 2021)

I finally had a grievance hearing at end of may. I felt that all of my grievance was listened to and i was told it could yet take months to conclude.
I followed up at end of june and was again told it could be months and that investigations are ongoing. 
I am frustrated its taking so long esp as its not complex at all and there is really only maybe 3 people to interview as part of investigation.
I feel trapped in that i dont want to resign until its concluded on and at same time im desperate to move on.


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## Acorn22 (13 Jul 2021)

ArthurMcB said:


> I finally had a grievance hearing at end of may. I felt that all of my grievance was listened to and i was told it could yet take months to conclude.
> I followed up at end of june and was again told it could be months and that investigations are ongoing.
> I am frustrated its taking so long esp as its not complex at all and there is really only maybe 3 people to interview as part of investigation.
> I feel trapped in that i dont want to resign until its concluded on and at same time im desperate to move on.


Yes it seems that what you are describing is a bit of a mudhole to be in.  Best of luck.  Constructive dismissals to manage someone out of a position/ a company are quite common.  I wish we had tools to be able to easily identify this.  Unfortunately for most people its collect loads of evidence to prove that you are being managed out which is taxing and exhausting on top of the stress of knowing someone is trying to check mate you.   I would put a reasonable time frame on the results of grievance.  Your union may do this for you.  Finally, I would echo what some people have said on here and that is move on from the place as soon as you can.


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## dereko1969 (13 Jul 2021)

ArthurMcB said:


> I finally had a grievance hearing at end of may. I felt that all of my grievance was listened to and i was told it could yet take months to conclude.
> I followed up at end of june and was again told it could be months and that investigations are ongoing.
> I am frustrated its taking so long esp as its not complex at all and there is really only maybe 3 people to interview as part of investigation.
> I feel trapped in that i dont want to resign until its concluded on and at same time im desperate to move on.


I think this is grounds for constructive dismissal, at every meeting they're telling you it will take ages (subtext is would you ever just leave!). Time to consult a specialist solicitor.


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## ArthurMcB (13 Jul 2021)

From what I understand, constructive dismissal is not a great path to go down mainly because the award, if succesful, is based on loss of earnings. If i quit i would not want to, or indeed be able to, be out of work for very long as the bills need paying. So the potential claim may not be worth the effort.


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## presidenttttt (14 Jul 2021)

The effort and stress is often strong reasons to avoid the hassle of a claim unless fairly sure the employer will lose.

Grievances can take time, but surely a performance plan is generated because the employer wants to improve something so is therefore usually generated rapidly? The slow pace of both therefore seems puzzling.

I would look for other opportunities, plenty of movement in labour market likely as lockdown relaxes.

And yes, there is absolutely a need for unions in many organisations. The law is heavily in favour of employers in Ireland and the U.K. anyway.


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## DeeKie (14 Jul 2021)

I would issue a data access request now. I would also ask yourself what are you looking for now. You seem to say that you want to move on. Are you hanging on for a payment?


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## ArthurMcB (14 Jul 2021)

Im absolutely hanging on for a payment. I willnissue a DAR today thats a good idea that I was putting on back burner.


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## Salvadore (16 Jul 2021)

ArthurMcB said:


> Im absolutely hanging on for a payment. I willnissue a DAR today thats a good idea that I was putting on back burner.


By that, do you mean a payoff to leave?


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## ArthurMcB (16 Jul 2021)

I think sometimes you can come to a compromise agreement with your empmoyer in certain circumstances and you may agree to waive your employment rights for an agreed settlement sum. It can be a suitable option for both parties.

You would need to be confident that you have a claim in the first instance. I am not sure whether i have a claim or not. If i do and i hope that i do given all of the above previous posts then in that scenario i would be hoping to persue a settlement rather than just walk away from a good job and my career with that organisation.


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## horusd (16 Jul 2021)

In a completely different scenario, I issued a DAR  (over a pension issue). By Gawd it got their (HR's ) attention and moved it along.


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## Bolter (16 Jul 2021)

ArthurMcB said:


> I think sometimes you can come to a compromise agreement with your empmoyer in certain circumstances and you may agree to waive your employment rights for an agreed settlement sum. It can be a suitable option for both parties.
> 
> You would need to be confident that you have a claim in the first instance. I am not sure whether i have a claim or not. If i do and i hope that i do given all of the above previous posts then in that scenario i would be hoping to persue a settlement rather than just walk away from a good job and my career with that organisation.


Watch your timelines.
By this I mean note the date of the commencement of your problems (,presumably date you were told you were going to be put on a pip?).
Hr will often drag things out so that the employee misses the statutory deadline- usually 6 months from date of the initial problem.
For wrc you need to lodge a complaint within 6 months of the date of the "problem"
Entering a HR grievance procedure doesn't stop the clock. A global company will know this.
What some people do is lodge a claim with wrc to maintain their position then withdraw it if satisfactorily resolved.
Be aware that wrc publish names of parties now- usually a week or two in advance of a hearing date.
You have to measure that bad publicity and getting a few grand versus being blacklisted for the rest of your career (it happens) even if successful.


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## Bolter (16 Jul 2021)

If you choose to go constructive dismissal, I.e. you resign , you have 6 months from date of resignation to take a claim for constructive dismissal.
Such cases are very hard to prove.  Generally  you need to show that you exhausted all internal  grievance procedures before you


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## Salvadore (16 Jul 2021)

ArthurMcB said:


> I think sometimes you can come to a compromise agreement with your empmoyer in certain circumstances and you may agree to waive your employment rights for an agreed settlement sum. It can be a suitable option for both parties.
> 
> You would need to be confident that you have a claim in the first instance. I am not sure whether i have a claim or not.


I think it’s more likely that an employer would offer something to make a problem (i.e. you) go away. This would be without prejudice to any legitimate claim you might have.

If this is your favoured outcome, it requires a certain approach. If, on the other hand, you want “justice”, this requires a different approach.

Your ultimate question is whether you want to stay or go. The answer to this determines your next steps.

I haven’t read the entire thread in detail but it would seem that your approach is to respond to what the company is doing rather than being proactive and getting on the front foot.

People can offer their advice on what you should do but it would help if you were clear in the first instance as to your preferred outcome.


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## ArthurMcB (17 Jul 2021)

My preferred outcome at this stage is to leave but I would like to be somewhat compensated in light of everything that has gone on. Im sure that my employer would also be satisfied if I left, in fact I think this is what they want.

Up to now i have not been very proactive, iv followed up with HR but iv more or less let things move at their pace.

Should I now consider a morebproactive approach? What woukd this entail? Should I resign and lodge a claim? Im not even sure what that claim would be . I know I will need to discuss with a solicitor.

Regarding timelines, my thinking all along was that I need to exhaust internal grievance process and clock starts from time I resign. Is this correct? If it is then im ok re 6 month rule i think.

I dont s ee the point in persuing const dismissal as the claim is only for loss of earnings. As i  hope to secure new empl very quickly after resigning, loss of earnings would be minimal.


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## elcato (17 Jul 2021)

ArthurMcB said:


> As i hope to secure new empl very quickly after resigning, loss of earnings would be minimal.


You should start the process and hopefully secure a new job before you need to resign. Concentrate on this.


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## Salvadore (17 Jul 2021)

ArthurMcB said:


> My preferred outcome at this stage is to leave but I would like to be somewhat compensated in light of everything that has gone on. Im sure that my employer would also be satisfied if I left, in fact I think this is what they want.
> 
> Up to now i have not been very proactive, iv followed up with HR but iv more or less let things move at their pace.
> 
> Should I now consider a morebproactive approach? What woukd this entail? Should I resign and lodge a claim? Im not even sure what that claim would be


If you resign, your employer will be thrilled. Resign only if you want to put the whole issue behind you.

If you feel you’ve been wronged, that you want to leave but only if you get a payoff, then you have to make a nuisance of yourself and this requires a plan.

Make life difficult for the “aggressors”. Follow up in writing on your grievance procedure every week or two weeks, submit numerous data protection requests on different issues (e.g. for what records exist relating to the decision to produce a PIP, records relating to your sick leave, etc). You won’t be popular, even among your co-workers, and it will require patience, single-mindedness and tenacity. It’s a route only for the very strong willed.

Also, see an employment law specialist. Your HR section will be very experienced in dealing with cases like yours and will have you for breakfast. You need professional help which should go beyond the casual utterances of people on this website, myself included.


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## ArthurMcB (18 Jul 2021)

Thanks for the advice. I will speak to a solicitor this week and try to proactively move this whole fiasco forward. It makes no sense that theyve not concluded by now on the grievance and they dont provide me with any update etc.


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## Acorn22 (23 Sep 2021)

ArthurMcB said:


> Thanks for the advice. I will speak to a solicitor this week and try to proactively move this whole fiasco forward. It makes no sense that theyve not concluded by now on the grievance and they dont provide me with any update etc.


Any update here?  Did you chat to solicitor?


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## ArthurMcB (23 Sep 2021)

No update to share at this time


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## DeeKie (24 Sep 2021)

Did you issue a DAR?


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## ArthurMcB (3 Nov 2021)

Got my grievance outcome letter. My grievance wasnt upheld. Its disappointing but not surprising.

The outcome letter explained why they werent upholding my various grievance points. Most of it is reasonable and what I expected tbh. Some of my points were hard to prove. Theyve kind of exaggerated and almost made up a few things that theyve included.

I will probably appeal but dont really see the point.

I plan to return to work soon and put this all behind me.

I issued a DAR and they responded but nothing noteworthy came of it.

I didnt speak to a solic as i wanted to wait for the outcome and at this stage I dont see the point or what it will achieve.

Thanks all for the responses.


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## Leper (6 Nov 2021)

1. Bottom Line:- You have been the aggrieved person. 
2. You fought your corner and perhaps lost?
3. You made your point(s) and likely won't lie down easily. 
4. Management have treated you pretty badly, but likely won't do so again knowing you can kick and bite (euphemism).
5. It  is likely you'll get a lot of respect from your stance.


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## ArthurMcB (7 Nov 2021)

Leper said:


> 1. Bottom Line:- You have been the aggrieved person.
> 2. You fought your corner and perhaps lost?
> 3. You made your point(s) and likely won't lie down easily.
> 4. Management have treated you pretty badly, but likely won't do so again knowing you can kick and bite (euphemism).
> 5. It  is likely you'll get a lot of respect from your stance.


Well summed up Leo.

I didnt do this though to make a point or show that im stubborn or wont lie down etc. I did it because, as you said, i was genuinely aggrieved. 
Employed has not appeased me or accepted my grievance. No surprise.

I feel like iv moved on thankfully and its all a good learning curve. 

My team and work environment is going to be toxic moving forward and in just going to have to rise above that. 

End of the day im happy with everyrhing I raised and the way in which I raised it and thats good enough regardless of the outcome.


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## Leper (8 Nov 2021)

ArthurMcB said:


> Well summed up Leo.
> 
> I didnt do this though to make a point or show that im stubborn or wont lie down etc. I did it because, as you said, i was genuinely aggrieved.
> Employed has not appeased me or accepted my grievance. No surprise.
> ...



Please don't confuse me with Leo. I'm Leper, the one who gave thanks!!!!!  - I'm not Leo the Lion!


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## ArthurMcB (30 May 2022)

Here is an update.

I appealed grievance outcome from last year. Appeal is still ongoing. I returned to work a few months ago and just got my head down and got on with it.

I have secured a new job starting in couple of months but have not yet handed in notice. Will do so in coming weeks in accordance with contractual notice period.

Should i hand in notice and cite constructive dismissal on basis that grievance appeal has still not been dealt with it(They have progressed it though). A final straw type situation.

I may have accepted any wrongdoing by my employer just by continuing to work there. Although, i would argue that i have been waiting for grievance to conclude. Its frustrating that its still ongoing. 

I know that constructive dismissal claim is limited to loss of earnings which would be essentially zero as id be starting elsewhere almost immediately after finishing. However, im aware that there is a token payment, in this scenario, of 4 weeks wages so thats worth pursuing.

Any advice, comments, suggestions would be very welcome. Thanks.


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## Paul O Mahoney (30 May 2022)

ArthurMcB said:


> Here is an update.
> 
> I appealed grievance outcome from last year. Appeal is still ongoing. I returned to work a few months ago and just got my head down and got on with it.
> 
> ...


My tuppence is to move on, its difficult but your time at that company is coming to a close and for your own sanity and mental wellbeing just hand in your notice and leave. ( they might let you go with pay)

I think there are very few of us who didn't endure something negative in our working lives, but the past is the past and shouldn't be something to cloud your future.

Best of luck.


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## Peanuts20 (30 May 2022)

ArthurMcB said:


> Here is an update.
> 
> I appealed grievance outcome from last year. Appeal is still ongoing. I returned to work a few months ago and just got my head down and got on with it.
> 
> ...



Move on, make sure you get a reference, even if it is only to confirm the dates you worked (most multinationals will only give that) and request an exit interview before you leave and use it to vent.


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## ArthurMcB (30 May 2022)

Thanks.

I have no real interest in venting anymore. I have kind of done that in my grievance. An exit interview would be of no use or satisfaction to me at this stage, im sure it could be of use to my employer though.

I am moving on, starting a new job soon. No issue there. References seem to be more of a background date-check on the part of a prospective employernowadays too.
.

Im just wondering aloud...what have i got to lose by citing the fact that my long running grievance has not yet been dealt with, when I check out. Its easy for me to submit a complaint to the wrc and why wouldnt I?

Be interested to hear a persuasive argument for why I should not.


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## messyleo (30 May 2022)

ArthurMcB said:


> Im just wondering aloud...what have i got to lose by citing the fact that my long running grievance has not yet been dealt with, when I check out. Its easy for me to submit a complaint to the wrc and why wouldnt I?
> 
> Be interested to hear a persuasive argument for why I should not.



I would say the emotional cost and stress in dragging everything back up, getting all your documentation together, potentially legal costs etc. for the next year or even longer through the WRC - for at most 4 weeks of wages? It's not worth it imo


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## Bolter (30 May 2022)

Agree that if its for 4 weeks wages it's not worth the hassle.
2 reasons:
1. Names are now published by wrc- long term this could affect your chances of promotion/new opportunities etc. Ireland is small.
2.  How much time and energy will a wrc claim cost you? A solicitor will do it but will their legal fee even cover the amount of the award? I doubt it. (Wrc don't award legal costs to the winning party- it's not like court).
 I'd wager you won't get a lawyer to confirm in writing in  advance  they will run the case on the basis that their fee is fixed at exactly x amount .
If you can get a lawyer to agree that and you're not worried about publicity, it might be worth a shot.
If you go it alone, how much time and energy can you give it? Your time, energy and peace of mind is valuable.

Maybe the sweetest revenge is getting a better job!


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## Salvadore (30 May 2022)

I agree with the comments about moving on and putting it behind you. There’s a value to that if you think you can move on.

On the other hand, it might irk that you left without justice being served and the impulse to give them a bloody nose on the way out may seem strong.

A grievance procedure that takes as long as it seems to on this occasion seems flawed and, procedurally, the company seems exposed.

You could argue that the company’s failure to properly administer your grievance left you with no option but to leave. As with any constructive dismissal case however, the burden of proof is with you. From reading the history, it could be argued that you didn’t agitate forcefully for a resolution but the company should definitely have handled this better, if only to reduce their own exposure.


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## Bluefin (30 May 2022)

Salvadore said:


> I agree with the comments about moving on and putting it behind you. There’s a value to that if you think you can move on.
> 
> On the other hand, it might irk that you left without justice being served and the impulse to give them a bloody nose on the way out may seem strong.
> 
> ...


I been through the WRC process three times now... It's not a very difficult process to navigate and the financial costs are near to zero.. It can be done by yourself with no need for solicitor's on your side... The same cannot be said about the other side.. They may engage solicitors and barristers as happened in my case. 
What I would agree on is the potential emotional stress that a case might cause versus the benefit that you might receive if you are successful.. The length of time from lodging case to getting a decision would be approx 18 month's


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## LS400 (31 May 2022)

Bluefin said:


> I been through the WRC process three times now..



I think that might say more about you though... 3 times, something wrong there.


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## ArthurMcB (31 May 2022)

Thanks again folks.

I would represent myself so financial cost would be zero.

Time, energy, thought - that id need to invest would be minimal. I have my grievance documentation and it would take me no time to write up a brief synopsis.

Im not too bothered about the publicity, why would I be. I dont think prospective employers would trawl through wrc cases but maybe they do.


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## Leo (31 May 2022)

ArthurMcB said:


> Im not too bothered about the publicity, why would I be. I dont think prospective employers would trawl through wrc cases but maybe they do.


Depends what field you work in and at what level, many of the big employers will pay background checking services to search that kind of information. The more senior the role, the deeper the checks.


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## elcato (31 May 2022)

Just curious. You said you _returned _to work a few months ago in your update. Did you take unpaid leave or something during the grievance process ?


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## ArthurMcB (31 May 2022)

If an employer checked wrc cases and found out that somebody raised an issue with a prior employer, so what? I guess it might put some employer off....but id probably not want to work for that type of employer. It really shouldnt reflect badly on an individual, that they raised a legitimate issue with an employer.


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## ArthurMcB (10 Jun 2022)

Soi handed in my resignation recently and cited constructive dismissal. A few hours later my grievance appeal outcome was delivered. none of it was upheld. Some points werent even addressed which is so frustrating. Theyve dealt with the main parts but theyve managed to spin it. Anyway..im fed up with it now.

In my resignation email i cited the unreasonable length of time taken to administer my grievance (see previous posts in this thread) as being the final straw that left my role untenable and with no choice but to resign in response to their breach of contract.

I think its gas that they suddenly got my grievance closed off on same day i resign.Its too late though and the damage has been done. I have lost all trust and confidence in my employer.

I wonder though has their sudden closure of the grievance given them a tactical leg up as it were? Or does it just show that they were playing me all along? Or both...

Should i wait until i serve my notice before submitting a case to wrc or do it now? I have nothing really to lose in making a case.


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## PaddyBloggit (10 Jun 2022)

ArthurMcB said:


> Should i wait until i serve my notice before submitting a case to wrc or do it now?



What's to be gained by waiting? If you're going to submit a case, why not initiate the process immediately?

The company obviously doesn't care what you do. By delaying, you just delay yourself.


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## Salvadore (11 Jun 2022)

ArthurMcB said:


> I have lost all trust and confidence in my employer.


They don’t care. Deal with that.

They closed the book on the grievance thing to tie up loose ends. They don’t care what you do. They’ll deal with it. You may be right or not. They’ll deal with whatever you choose to respond with.

Your best bet is to move on with whatever makes you happiest.


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## ArthurMcB (11 Jun 2022)

Salvadore said:


> They don’t care. Deal with that


100%. I know this.

The trust and confidence thing is something i was advised to include in my resignation. It happens to be true as well.

Ill submit a complaint to wrc, nothing to loose. Few quid to gain. And i know that they know that i have a decent legal basis for my claim.


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## Bluefin (11 Jun 2022)

ArthurMcB said:


> 100%. I know this.
> 
> The trust and confidence thing is something i was advised to include in my resignation. It happens to be true as well.
> 
> Ill submit a complaint to wrc, nothing to loose. Few quid to gain. And i know that they know that i have a decent legal basis for my claim.


Application to the WRC will take at least at year and more likely longer before you even get your hearing. 

You must ask yourself will it be worth it..the company (if they even engage with the WRC) will be represented by their own legal team (SC). If you win your case, you will not get an apology from them and since you have gone from one employment straight to another what loss of income have you suffered and what compensation so you think you might get? 

Just a thought...


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## ArthurMcB (11 Jun 2022)

Minimum ill get is 4 weeks wages so, for me its prob worth it and i dont mind it taking 12 or more months.

I dont care if they apologise or not, to be frank, im a big boy.

Genuine question - why wouldnt it be worth it? What have i got to lose given that its a simple process, im happy to represent myself etc?

Its more of a nuisance for employer than for me!!


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## messyleo (11 Jun 2022)

You seem pretty committed to the decision on what you are going to do already so I am not sure why you are posting here for advice or guidance - it seems to be just for validation of your own course of action. In which case, I hope things work out for you as you hope.


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## Bluefin (11 Jun 2022)

ArthurMcB said:


> Minimum ill get is 4 weeks wages so, for me its prob worth it and i dont mind it taking 12 or more months.
> 
> I dont care if they apologise or not, to be frank, im a big boy.
> 
> ...


It's much more important for you to get on with your life and put this nasty experience behind you... In the big scheme of life is potentially a months salary worth the emotional burden this may cause you..it may be very difficult for you to switch off and this grievance might be going around your head for the next year!! 

What happens if you don't win and the upset this may cause you! 

If you win and receive compensation, it doesn't give much satisfaction... From my experience an apology would have given much more validation than a small amount of money which goes into the usually pot and gets spent on day to day expenses..


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## ArthurMcB (11 Jun 2022)

gravitygirl said:


> You seem pretty committed to the decision on what you are going to do already so I am not sure why you are posting here for advice or guidance - it seems to be just for validation of your own course of action. In which case, I hope things work out for you as you hope.


Youre probably right there gravirygirl. At this stage mostly looking for a bit of the aul validation. But also if there are any nuggets of advice or wisdom out there.


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## ArthurMcB (11 Jun 2022)

Bluefin said:


> It's much more important for you to get on with your life and put this nasty experience behind you... In the big scheme of life is potentially a months salary worth the emotional burden this may cause you


The beauty of it is this will cause me zero emotional burden. And i am getting on with my life. If this were something that was crippling me id stop in my tracks and assess things differently. It doesnt faze me thankfully and i wont really give it a thought over the months ahead.

As i mentioned in prev threads the risks as i see it are:

1. Cost: nil in my case as ill rep myself
2. Stress etc. Nil in my case, why woukd i be stressed.
3. Embarassment - if it goes to adjudication my name is published. This doesnt bother me too much as i have a valid case and it may get resolved before then anyway.
4. I may lose. So what? I have a solid case so who knows i may even win.
5. Time spent prepping my case. Next to nil for me as my docs/evidence are ready to go.
6. Potential comp is not material. I agree with this but its still at least 4 weeks pay which, for me, aint to be sniffed at given the above 5 points.

Am i missing anything? Yes, to some extent im looking for validation but more so I am seeking any advice or wisdome on anything i may be overlooking.


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## Sophrosyne (11 Jun 2022)

Arthur, it is difficult for anyone here to give an opinion as it appears that sick leave is not the only issue.

The Performance Improvement Plan would be material in any grievance procedure as it would include specific examples of performance or behavioural shortfalls that needed to be improved.

Only you can evaluate whether you could satisfactorily challenge anything in the PIP.

The only thing I would say that PIPs should be issued in a timely manner to allow a reasonable period for improvement before the next appraisal. Therefore, timeliness of the PIP would also count in grievance procedures.


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## ArthurMcB (11 Jun 2022)

Sophrosyne said:


> Arthur, it is difficult for anyone here to give an opinion as it appears that sick leave is not the only issue.
> 
> The Performance Improvement Plan would be material in any grievance procedure as it would include specific examples of performance or behavioural shortfalls that needed to be improved.
> 
> ...


I sucessfully challenged the mooted PIP and had it overturned. I think I covered this in previous posts. Following on from that my employer still witheld a lot of my bonus. This however only makes up a part of my grievance.

At this stage though my grievance has not being upheld and im going to let sleeping dogs lie on that.

My resignation was on foot of my grievance not having being dealt with. It was dealt with after i resigned. This is the basis of my claim.


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## Sophrosyne (11 Jun 2022)

ArthurMcB said:


> At this stage though my grievance has not being upheld and im going to let sleeping dogs lie on that.


Arthur, I’m sorry if this is not what you want to hear but I am struggling to make sense of the principle of your claim.

Whether your employer acted in such a manner that you could not reasonably be expected to continue in their employ is _the_ issue.

The fact that the matter wasn’t dealt with until after you left, in this case, is irrelevant.

Why?

Your grievance was not upheld - which, by not challenging, you effectively accept that you didn’t have one or couldn’t prove that you had.

It follows, therefore, that you cannot prove that employer behaviour materially influenced your decision to leave before your employer’s determination.


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## Salvadore (11 Jun 2022)

Sophrosyne said:


> Arthur, I’m sorry if this is not what you want to hear but I am struggling to make sense of the principle of your claim.
> 
> Whether your employer acted in such a manner that you could not reasonably be expected to continue in their employ is _the_ issue.
> 
> ...


I’d agree with everything here. With unfair dismissal, the burden of proof is with the employee.

It seems your desire to give your former employer a bloody nose is greater than your willingness to put the whole experience behind you which is what you’ll have to do eventually.


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## ArthurMcB (11 Jun 2022)

Sophrosyne said:


> Arthur, I’m sorry if this is not what you want to hear but I am struggling to make sense of the principle of your claim.
> 
> Whether your employer acted in such a manner that you could not reasonably be expected to continue in their employ is _the_ issue.
> 
> ...


Thanks Sophrosyn, this is good food for thought and the kind of challenge i was looking for. If i dont have a claim, then i certainly will not pursue it. I need to think this through a bit more.

Please note though, i did challenge my grievance. I appealed it 7 months ago when i got outcome initially. The recent outcome is result of appeal.


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## PaddyBloggit (11 Jun 2022)

Life is too short.... just move on.


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## elcato (13 Jun 2022)

Publicity from the WRC case could be adverse if/when you want to move on again. I'm sure some HR person may follow them amd take notes. The first thing I do when I get an interview to do is google the person's name. (I am not in HR btw.)


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## ArthurMcB (13 Jun 2022)

Sophrosyne said:


> The fact that the matter wasn’t dealt with until after you left, in this case, is irrelevant.
> 
> Why?
> 
> ...


Hang on a second @Sophrosyne . Its entirely relevant. 

By not dealing with grievance for so long I had every right to resign.

By dealing with after i resigned is too little too late.

You are correct in saying my grievance was not upheld.

You are not correct in saying i didnt challenge it. Of course i did. I formally appealled their original response 7 or so months ago. I had a very legitimate grievance. In fact they didnt deal with all aspects of my grievance in the end but thats another matter.

Therefore, surely I can prove that the reason for my resignation is in direct response to my employer not dealing with my grievance.


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## Sophrosyne (13 Jun 2022)

ArthurMcB said:


> You are not correct in saying i didnt challenge it.


Perhaps I misunderstood.


ArthurMcB said:


> At this stage though my grievance has not being upheld and im going to let sleeping dogs lie on that.
> 
> *My resignation was on foot of my grievance not having being dealt with. It was dealt with after i resigned.* *This is the basis of my claim.*


Can you explain _precisely _what you mean by this.

Will your grievance with your former employer form part of the case you present to the WRC, _or _are you saying it will not and you intend to rely solely on the delay in providing you with a determination.


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## ArthurMcB (14 Jun 2022)

When i resigned my grievance had not been dealt with. It had been over 7 months since i had appealed the original decision. Original decision itself came 8 months after submitting grievance, if that makes sense. All in all it was a lengthy process.

Overall my grievance was not upheld. In my opinion some of it should have been and i provided evidence to support my contention. Also some aspects that i raised as part of my appeal were not dealt with in the recent final outcome that I received.

My claim is based on:
A) My grievance not being upheld where i provided evidence to support my case. I think an independant objective reasonable person will see the merit in my case.
B) Aspects not being dealt with. I have not yet sought an explanation why some aspects were not dealt with.
C) at the time of my resignation, 7 months after appealing, i had still not received an outcome and was given no indication of when id receive outcome. This was the final straw in a series of events, as contained in my grievance,  which i feel left my position untenable so i resigned.

Hours after resigning i was finally provided with an outcome. But i had already resigned and cited the above.

My case is based on all of the above. I think i have a whiff of a case but maybe not.


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## Leo (14 Jun 2022)

ArthurMcB said:


> By dealing with after i resigned is too little too late.


Actually, the optics here are they rushed to deal with it after you handed in your notice. This looks quite bad for the employer and perhaps suggests they intentionally dragged it out so you would leave.


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## Sophrosyne (14 Jun 2022)

You appear to be relying on the fact that your employer delayed their decision on your appeal until you left. That would be relevant only if you could *prove* to the WRC that you had a genuine grievance in the first place. Otherwise, your claim might be viewed as vexatious.

The WRC will know nothing of your grievance unless you present comprehensive and detailed information. *You bear the onus of proof*; remember your employer will challenge everything.

If you fail to prove that you had a legitimate grievance, then it follows that you had no legitimate reason to leave, delays by your former employer notwithstanding.

At all events good luck with whatever you decide to do.

Edit: BTW, I am playing Devil's advocate to illustrate what you might encounter in the WRC. I cannot, nor can anyone else tell you whether you are right or wrong, as that would entail hearing evidence from both sides.


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## Bolter (14 Jun 2022)

It sounds to me like you've already decided to lodge a claim whatever people think.
If they gave you result of grievance  appeal a few hours after you resigned, then you have a good  case that they were purposely dragging out the procedure. 
If you are going ahead, you should claim everything :
1. Itemise the loss arising from the loss of that bonus you mentioned,
2. If you didn't get all your annual leave AND public holiday leave, overtime whatever  - then put in claim under payment of wages act for that 
3. Check if any colleagues at your level got promoted internally  in your last year there-were you notified (even if on sick leave they have obligation to notify you) put that in and itemise financial loss from that.
A word of warning: I would make sure I'm sitting at the desk of the new job with a signed contract first.
What if your new Job finds out you are suing. Couldn't they withdraw their job offer? 
Anyway good luck. You were treated badly.


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## Bolter (14 Jun 2022)

Just to clarify - I still think you shouldn't lodge a claim. For a very small "win" you will have a recorded claim in wrc: future employers can look at those wrc decisions. Even valid claims can be off-putting to employers.  Do you really want to tarnish your career for the sake of a few grand?
In the main wrc awards are abysmally low.


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## ArthurMcB (14 Jun 2022)

@Bolter
I think there is a mediation prior to adjudication and its only at adjudication that details are published so for now I will at least pursue to that point.

To your point re being in situ at new job. It takes many months for cases to progress at wrc so lodging complaint now shouldnt hamper a new role - as long as im in there pretty soon which I will be.


Sophrosyne said:


> You appear to be relying on the fact that your employer delayed their decision on your appeal until you left.


As well as the other things i mentioned in my post above i.e not upholding a valid grievance wherein i provided strong evidence which i will furnish very easily to wrc. And, not dealing with aspects of grievance. I think I can prove to wrc that I had a grievance in 1st place and it wasnt vexation or malicious.

I really do appreciate your challenge here Sophrosyn and i do plan to carefully weigh up cost v benefit of this.


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## Bolter (14 Jun 2022)

I'd still wait till you were  in the  new job. What if new job telephone your old job before you start? That's normal enough when doing a background check . Aren't you worried they might withdraw the job offer if your old job says "yeah, he's left and just lodged a claim against us?"


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## Salvadore (14 Jun 2022)

ArthurMcB said:


> Got my grievance outcome letter. My grievance wasnt upheld. Its disappointing but not surprising.
> 
> The outcome letter explained why they werent upholding my various grievance points. *Most of it is reasonable and what I expected tbh. Some of my points were hard to prove. *Theyve kind of exaggerated and almost made up a few things that theyve included.
> 
> I will probably appeal but dont really see the point.


This is what you said in November on receipt of the grievance outcome letter. If, by your own admission, it’s mostly reasonable and that some of your points are hard to prove, what makes you think you now have the basis for a successful claim for unfair dismissal where the burden of proof is with you.

Other than that, the company is guilty only of not processing your appeal as quickly as they should but, given that they dealt with the substantive issues raised in the initial grievance, can you honestly say that this left you in a position where you had no choice but to resign?


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## ArthurMcB (15 Jun 2022)

Salvadore said:


> the company is guilty only of not processing your appeal as quickly as they should


The company is guilty of not processing my appeal. Full stop. At the time i resigned. The fact that they dealt with it purely in response to my resignation is adding insult to injury.

In addition, and notwithstanding what I had said in earlier post as you pointed out; their rebuttle of my initial was mostly reasonable. But in some key respects was not reasonable.

In addition, they have not dealt with other aspects of my appeal.

At the time i resigned, i was in a position where I had no choice but to resign. My grievance had not being dealt with. I think thats grounds for constructive dismissal. This, together with the points mentioned just above was the final straw for me. It was bad enough that not one aspect of my grievance was upheld inspite of evidence to support it but to then drag it out for months and only then respond when i resign is unreasonable on the part of employer i think.


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## messyleo (15 Jun 2022)

But if the grievance wasn't upheld, then this is evidence that there wasn't an issue which left you with no other option but to resign surely?


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## ArthurMcB (15 Jun 2022)

gravitygirl said:


> But if the grievance wasn't upheld, then this is evidence that there wasn't an issue which left you with no other option but to resign surely?


HR not upholding a grievance against the company does not mean i did not have a grievance/issue. Of course i did.

What other option did i have at the time i resigned? Stay and put up with it? Yeah possibly but that was my choice. Either stay and put up with them not answering my grievance and ultimately affirm their carry on. Or leave.

I had tried the internal grievance process including using the appeals process. I acted reasonably and waiting for a long time. Eventually enough is enough.

At the time I resigned my grievance had not being answered.


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## messyleo (15 Jun 2022)

But the grievance had been answered no? It was just the appeal you were waiting on, but you did get an answer if I have read your thread correctly.


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## ArthurMcB (15 Jun 2022)

gravitygirl said:


> But the grievance had been answered no? It was just the appeal you were waiting on, but you did get an answer if I have read your thread correctly.


My grievance was answered 8 months after I submitted it.
I appealed it and after 7 month of my appeal not being answered and no indication of when it would be answered I resigned. Hours later my appeal was answered.


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