# training contract for accountancy: Big 4 v smaller firms



## strong1 (7 Oct 2006)

Hi I am in the process of applying for for training contract for accountancy, I am undecided whether to go for one of the big 4 or apply to the smaller firms. 

I suppose it's advantage of maybe more salary and more study leave, and the benefit of having worked for the big 4 verus the wider experience I may gain in a smaller firm, with exposure to all areas of accounting.


Also I was thinking of applying to the banks to do my training there,

Anyone got any advice for me please.


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## Brendan Burgess (7 Oct 2006)

*Re: Big 4 v smaller firms*

In most cases, you are better off with a Big 4 name on your CV. Whether or not it is justified, most employers regard Big 4 trained chartered accountants as the top in the profession. 

If you are 100% sure at this stage, that you want to set up your own practice after you qualify, you would be better off in a smaller firm where the experience would be much more appropriate. 

Brendan


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## Solutions (7 Oct 2006)

*Re: Big 4 v smaller firms*

Go for the big 4, training & support is better and if you are good, its a gravey train!


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## strong1 (8 Oct 2006)

*Re: Big 4 v smaller firms*

Thanks for the info guys, 

Just one more question, what happens if I join the one of the big 4 (or any other company) sign a training contract for 3 yrs and decide to leave after a few months?


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## bazermc (8 Oct 2006)

*Re: Big 4 v smaller firms*



Brendan said:


> In most cases, you are better off with a Big 4 name on your CV. Whether or not it is justified, most employers regard Big 4 trained chartered accountants as the top in the profession.
> Brendan



That opinion, in most cases, is not at all justified.  I starting my training in a small practice qualified as an ACCA & AITI and then moved into a big 4 firm for a number of years working up to management.  Having seen what sort of work the trainees do and do not do and am absolutely amazed that they can call themselves a qualified chartered accountant at the end of 3.5 years, after nearly 50% admin work and not one bit of accounts preparation.

OP you have to be very careful and try not to be swept up in the idilic promises of becoming a big 4 trained CA.  As an employer now I would rather see an all round experienced canditate.


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## bazermc (8 Oct 2006)

*Re: Big 4 v smaller firms*



strong1 said:


> Thanks for the info guys,
> 
> Just one more question, what happens if I join the one of the big 4 (or any other company) sign a training contract for 3 yrs and decide to leave after a few months?



You will go back to zero in terms of training time to satisfy ICAI's requirement.  Plus you will have to explain to a new employer why you left which could be difficult.


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## IanDublin (9 Oct 2006)

My girlfriend is a trainee acca with one year left.  She works for a practise with 11 employees. One of her collegaues is a fully qualified accountant as is her husband who works for one of the big 4. She says her husband is missing a lot of basic accounting skills, due in part she thinks to the fact that in a smaller practise the partners will put more time & effort to train you as it is in their interests in the long term. Another of their colleagues left to go to Merrill Lynch a few weeks back. He has since been in touch to say he hates his job. His old work colleagues are of the opinion that when he was in their practise he was a big fish in a small pond, whereas in Merrill Lynch he is a small fish in an ocean! So although his salary has increased, his job satisfaction has plummeted.
Its a trade off between a more intimate work environment versus having the big 4 names on your CV and money.


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## Glenbhoy (9 Oct 2006)

If you are doing ACA, you are probably better off in practice as exams etc are geared towards people in practice rather than industry, most practices are fairly generous re study leave etc too, although you would probably get paid more in industry.
Re the big 4 v small practice  - tough call, many employers do indeed view big 4 as being very desireable, but i don't think the training is as good.  I think overall you should go Big 4 though, as regardless of the training, when you qualify it will be easier to get that all important first job, often clients poach big 4 staff or are more likely to recruit from their auditors a any rate.  You will have more chance to secure secondments to US/Oz..... via internal big 4 networks.  Big 4 also pay more, but on the downside the hours are a disgrace, be prepared to give up most of your life for about 6 months a year.
The other thing to remember is that when you qualify, whatever job you end up doing (and we'll assume that being a rational being you make the break from audit), it won't take too long to get to grips with it, there's very little in the world of accounting that could be termed as rocket science, and for that reason I would not be too worried about the experience gained in training.


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## Winnie (9 Oct 2006)

Have to say that the support in Big 4 is very good in terms of exams - a lot more time study leave.  Also the salaries are considerably better in big 4.  More flexibility in terms of taking career breaks & also oportunities to go on foreign secondments etc.  
That said the training is tough where ever you do it & you will have to do long hours etc.  
In terms of experience it depends on what dept you go into (avoid funds - very pigeon holed).  Also it depends on where you want to go to with your career - I personally like working for a large firm as you always have lots of people to bounce ideas off & support in terms of continuing training.  If you want to work somewhere smaller mayb you would be better in a smaller firm.  Another option is to work in one of the regional offices of the Big 4 - you get the training of a small firm but still get the Big 4 name on your CV.


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## Art (10 Oct 2006)

As many here have pointed out the training in the smaller firms is arguably better, particularly if you want to become a number cruncher or open your own practice ultimately. I would argue though that if you want to move into business management/strategy as many have done, that a big 4 training is superior.

Knowing plenty of accountants, I have not heard of anyone who turned down a job in a big 4 practice to join a smaller firm. Also I cannot overemphasise the importance of adequate exam leave. When I trained in one of the big 4, we got 3 months for our final exams - our counterparts in the smaller firms averaged about 6 weeks. Also having travelled to Australia for a year we earned about 10% more than our small firm counterparts because we had the big 4 name on oru cvs. Also the pay is generally much better in the big 4 practices. And most importantly because there are so many of your own age working with you, the craic is invariably better too.

It is rare for somebody to leave a practice but I have never heard of anybody having any difficulty.


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## killeoin (10 Oct 2006)

Hi Art,

I'm actually in a similar situation myself and this is the conclusion I have come to (I would appreciate correction!)

Smaller firms are better if you actually want to become an _Accountant._ E.g open up your own practice etc...Most Big 4 grads would not be able to do a simple Sole Trader Account at the end of there 3 and a half years, however the amount of people who want to do this is (I have been told) small enough.
If you want to divert into Finance or any other of the endless routes after then Big 4 on your C.V would be better.

Also, don't take too much notice of what you here about them being slavedrivers (overtime etc..). Don't get me wrong it is true but it happens everywhere!

Consider your own situation, Will you be moving to a new City by yourself? If so Big 4 might be better from a Social standpoint than a small firm which might only have 2 or 3 trainees (whom you might or might not get on with)


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## ubiquitous (10 Oct 2006)

Art said:


> Knowing plenty of accountants, I have not heard of anyone who turned down a job in a big 4 practice to join a smaller firm.



I actually took this option myself ten years ago...


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## Betsy Og (10 Oct 2006)

rightly or wrongly its perceived as the cream rising to the top, the top grads are offered and invariably take the big 4 job. It like employers asking you what you got for the leaving, its a barometer they know, same goes for where you got your first job out of college.

But theres nothing to stop you exiting after 3.5 years and going to a smaller practice if that is what you want, it wont take forever to learn the ropes and at that age/stage of career it shouldnt be such a big deal to "re-train". The problem is staying in big 4 too long, and then not really being above to break the cycle and get into another rank of practice in the smaller firms.

I'd say the majority of big 4 audit trainees end up in industry so if thats where you'd like to be then big 4 might be just the thing.


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## Kiddo (10 Oct 2006)

Another option is to train in a small practice and then do a year or two in Big 4. I'd recommend this option rather than the other way around tbh. If a small practice are taking on a qualified accountant then, in my experiance, they expect that person to be able to finish accounts and deal with the queries etc and present the file to the partner/manager for review...they don't expect to train them in to the job. 

As for leaving after a few months... I have come across a couple of people who decided after 6 months or so that accountancy wasn't for them and left. I've also met one or two who, due to being unhappy with the first practice they signed up to, had transferred their contract to another practice. AFAIK you must obtain the agreement of your current practice and the ICAI, and they kept their work experiance to date.


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## Betsy Og (11 Oct 2006)

Kiddo said:


> Another option is to train in a small practice and then do a year or two in Big 4. I'd recommend this option rather than the other way around tbh. If a small practice are taking on a qualified accountant then, in my experiance, they expect that person to be able to finish accounts and deal with the queries etc and present the file to the partner/manager for review...they don't expect to train them in to the job.


 
Thats a fair point too. I know of people who have done this and it can work out well.


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## Glenbhoy (11 Oct 2006)

killeoin said:


> Also, don't take too much notice of what you here about them being slavedrivers (overtime etc..). Don't get me wrong it is true but it happens everywhere!
> 
> Consider your own situation, Will you be moving to a new City by yourself? If so Big 4 might be better from a Social standpoint than a small firm which might only have 2 or 3 trainees (whom you might or might not get on with)


Re your first point, I disagree, the overtime is ridiculous, they are always understaffed and the situation is getting worse (especially in FS Audit), the busy season is now practically all year round, however you're presumably young and sure you can prob hack it for a few years.
But I agree with you re the social scene.


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## CCOVICH (11 Oct 2006)

Glenbhoy said:


> Re your first point, I disagree, the overtime is ridiculous, they are always understaffed and the situation is getting worse (especially in FS Audit), the busy season is now practically all year round, however you're presumably young and sure you can prob hack it for a few years.


 
I'll disagree with you based on personal experience of Financial Services audit in a Big 4 firm-I had nowhere near enough overtime worked to get the required time off for my FAEs (I didn't sit any other exams in practice).

My view was the many people 'felt' they had to be in work until it was dark etc. I rarely stayed any later than 7, even during the winter months. But there were certainly many who worked mad enough hours, but not all year round.

I would say that it is more likely that the longer you stay, the longer the hours you will work, as staff rentention is a big problem for Big 4. Very few of those I trained alongside have remained in practice.

I think that if you are seriously considering the Big 4, don't let the overtime issue put you off-it may not be an issue, or you are young enough to handle it for a while, or consider that you will be paid, or have time off in lieu.

The experience gained in a Big 4 environment is very different to what you need to do well in a smaller practice (especially tax and preparation of accounts).



			
				strong1 said:
			
		

> Also I was thinking of applying to the banks to do my training there


 
I wouldn't if I had the option to take the Big 4 route. You will get much more generous study leave from a Big 4 firm, your salary prospects will be enhanced by going the Big 4 route, and you will get much more general experience training in a Big 4 environment, that may be anadvantage if you decide you want to work anywhere other than a bank. Banks are currently crying out for qualified accountants-I don't imagine you would have much problem getting a job in a bank post qualification if that is what you want.


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## Winnie (11 Oct 2006)

CCOVICH said:


> I think that if you are seriously considering the Big 4, don't let the overtime issue put you off-it may not be an issue, or you are young enough to handle it for a while, or consider that you will be paid, or have time off in lieu.


 
Also overtime is not just an issue in the big 4 - some friends of mine working in small practices do a lot of overtime & they don't get paid/time in lieu for it!  
You will have to work hard no matter where you do you training.


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## Art (12 Oct 2006)

CCOVICH said:


> I think that if you are seriously considering the Big 4, don't let the overtime issue put you off-it may not be an issue, or you are young enough to handle it for a while, or consider that you will be paid, or have time off in lieu.


 
I agree with this point completely. Depending on what jobs you work on, overtime may not be an issue. It is a case of pot luck really. I worked in one of the manufacturing groups(large MNC client base) in one of the big 4 and very few in my group worked significant overtime. So you would be silly to turn down an offer on this basis.

One point that has been overlooked is that some, if not all, of the big 4 firms have groups that focus on small businesses. The actual accounting training that you get in these groups is far superior to that which you get on working on the large audit clients.


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## accountant12 (27 Oct 2006)

No argument. Go for big four if you are career focussed. 
Reason: Most big job that requires accountant specifically ask for big4 qualified. 
I saw arguments that big4 aca's are not good at basic accounting. TRUE. But they become very good at understanding the big picture of big clients. So post-aca jobs that big4 guys get are not basic account preparation ones (which u normally get if trained from a smaller firm) but higher positions.
2. Other highly-regarded fields i.e. investment banking, corporate finance, private equtiy, strategy consulting - they don't take small firm qualifieds at all. 
3. Overtime - depends, but not that much. For every hour u work overtime in big4, u will get additional 1hr holiday. Come ur exam time normally all trainees take additional 1 month from the overtime they've build up. Take holidays if u want or just cash it. 
4. Training - apart from ACA training, u will get around 40 days of training (yes sitting in firm's confrence room for the whole day) on various business topics. 
After being trained in a small firm also bright aca's can join big-four but don't expect to be treated the same way here i.e. ur promotion to manager will come in around 2-3 yr.


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