# Reason you wont be protesting on the 10th December



## PatrickJ (3 Dec 2014)

I've never been on a protest in my life but here is one protest I most certainly wont be partaking in.

Reasons -

1. What mass protests did we see when us workers were hit with the USC?
2.  " " " " " when some of us had the threat of repossession looming over us due to simply losing our jobs?
3.  " " " " " LPT?
4. " " " " " Investment Property Tax?

Weren't the above more of an unjust tax then a few Euro water charge???

This tax has hit the layabouts exactly were it hurts.  They were cushioned far too long.  Had none of the above worries on their shoulders.  Their landlords had it all covered for them.  Their rent was paid for them and all they had to worry about was getting a new pair of runners and adding a few bob to their rent each month.

This protest is simply pathetic.


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## blueband (3 Dec 2014)

The charge of 'a few Euro' as you put it, is just an introductory offer to get you singed up. after that its onwards and upwards! except the people are not falling for it..
I will be marching on the 10th, and no im not on the dole but im happy to take a day off work for event, as will many others.


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## The_Banker (3 Dec 2014)

PatrickJ said:


> I've never been on a protest in my life but here is one protest I most certainly wont be partaking in.
> 
> Reasons -
> 
> ...


 
What a condescending post.


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## Jazz01 (3 Dec 2014)

> 1. What mass protests did we see when us workers were hit with the USC?
> 2.  " " " " " when some of us had the threat of repossession looming over us due to simply loosing our jobs?
> 3.  " " " " " LPT?
> 4. " " " " " Investment Property Tax?



Maybe it's the fact that it's the "last straw" for many people in Ireland, taking into account all that you mentioned. 
LPT protests were initially done, via "non-payment", but then it was given to revenue to collect. Threats of the monies been taken at source, non payment fines forced a lot of people into paying.

At this stage, I would guess that it's more than just "water charges" , as the reason that some people are protesting. They've had the fill, they see a chance to vent, do something that they feel is positive, fight back, whatever you want to call it... but "pathetic" is not something I would call it.


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## T McGibney (3 Dec 2014)

The inconvenient fact remains that those leading the water charges protests are in favour of higher taxes on citizens.


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## PaddyBloggit (3 Dec 2014)

the_banker said:


> what a condescending post.



+ 1


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## Leper (3 Dec 2014)

PatrickJ said:


> I've never been on a protest in my life but here is one protest I most certainly wont be partaking in.
> 
> Reasons -
> 
> ...



Appalling smug post and unchristian at best.  Posters have been suspended from this forum for much less. I get the feeling that the poster is one of those guys who would be shouting "Jump" to somebody contemplating self harm on the verge of a high crane.


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## Firefly (3 Dec 2014)

T McGibney said:


> The inconvenient fact remains that those leading the water charges protests are in favour of higher taxes on citizens.



+1 !!

It's amazing how those (and a few notables on this site) who advocate higher taxes for better services are suddenly quiet....it's something else when those taxes are actually brought in! As we know too well in this country....higher taxes do not bring about better services in any meaningful way.....there were plenty people lying on HSE trolleys during the Celtic Tiger!!!


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## flowerman (3 Dec 2014)

PatrickJ said:


> *I've never been on a protest in my life but here is one protest I most certainly wont be partaking in.*
> 
> *This protest is simply pathetic*.


 
Is that you Enda??


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## Deiseblue (3 Dec 2014)

PatrickJ said:


> I've never been on a protest in my life but here is one protest I most certainly wont be partaking in.
> 
> Reasons -
> 
> ...



You posted some time ago that you were unemployed for 3 years & owed a Bank a substantial sum which you could not pay .

Could we have surmised from that you were a debt avoiding well shod    layabout ?

Nobody who actually appreciates that most of us are simply one payday away from troubled times would surmise that - you however seem to be of a different stamp !


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## Delboy (3 Dec 2014)

I don't march under a Union banner, so I'll have nothing to do with these protests.

I personally cant understand all the publicity they're getting. The crowds are quiet small as a % of the population.
Perhaps it's the criminal/aggressive angle to some of the protests that keeps it all in the media


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## Marion (3 Dec 2014)

The main reason I won't be protesting is that I have signed up to pay my water charges. I believe that we should all be funding expenses such as this.

The second reason is that I could not possibly see myself marching with a certain crew of lunatics or shinners - (I'm not talking about the many reasonable people who might also be there). 

The third reason is that I am working on that day and I don't get any personal days. 

The fourth reason is that I already had a day walking with a placard recently in support of my colleagues (pay deducted). (But this is a weak excuse, really!)

Summary: Can't/Won't do it at all!



Marion


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## so-crates (4 Dec 2014)

I think the charge is reasonable, justified and that we have been coasting along with a laissez-faire attitude to water management for far too long. There are and there will be challenges but I think it is about time we started. The protests appear to be coming from two distinct sources, people who are already struggling and are afraid of what this means for them personally and don't feel able to afford it and the nasty, loud, populist, vote-seeking group who are seeking to control and organise the protest to harness a genuine discontent and worry for their own gain. I have no sympathy for them and I do not identify with their ludicrous, self-righteous, hypocritical and ill-informed campaign. I think they are actuated by greed in fact and not by any sense of civic duty so I won't be protesting - I have nothing but contempt for them.


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## Sophrosyne (4 Dec 2014)

Socrates

I don’t fully understand your post.

“The protests appear to be coming from two distinct sources,”

Agreed!

*Group 1*
“People who are already struggling and are afraid of what this means for them personally and don't feel able to afford it”

*Reaction*
?????????

*Group 2*
“The nasty, loud, populist, vote-seeking group who are seeking to control and organise the protest to harness a genuine discontent and worry for their own gain.

*Reaction*
“I have no sympathy for them and I do not identify with their ludicrous, self-righteous, hypocritical and ill-informed campaign. I think they are actuated by greed in fact and not by any sense of civic duty so I won't be protesting - I have nothing but contempt for them.” 

What is your reaction to Group 1?


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## so-crates (4 Dec 2014)

Sophrosyne, good point. I didn't address them and I should have. Insofar  as I can tell, the protests have been hijacked by the "group 2" element  - the Paul Murphys of this world are driving the protest now, as it is a  group 2-led protest I have no interest in giving it any support  whatsoever.

As for my group 1, every valid concern raised has  resulted in a response from the government in terms of providing reliefs  and supports. The valid concerns have been whittled away by these  responses and the number of people *realistically* anticipating  hardship now is less than the number of people who anticipated hardship  when the charging structure was first announced. They are a diminishing  proportion of the protest group which now appears to simply be a vehicle  for grandstanding, self-serving fools. Fundamentally while I sympathise  with people struggling, I don't subscribe to the notion that it is a  valid reason to reverse the process of introducing water charges. I am  firmly in favour of supports and reliefs where there is genuine  hardship. I think their protest is ill-directed and ill-advised and it  has only degenerated as time has gone on. The basis of the protest has  shifted from small-scale and genuine "I can't afford" (i.e. group 1) to the daft  and unsustainable rabble-rousing we are now being subjected to. The fact  that Irish Water employees and contractors are being targeted, abused  and attacked by self-declared "peaceful protesters" only adds to my  disgust with the whole thing.

Fundamentally the protests are  wrong-headed. We are currently wildly out of step with just about every  other jurisdiction on this matter, it is time we fixed the problem and  removed the anomaly that sees private, urban water users benefit  unfairly from the current situation.


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## so-crates (4 Dec 2014)

P.S. I am a "private urban water user" and I have no affiliation to Irish Water. I will be paying water charges for both clean and waste water and I will not be entitled to any reliefs or supports.


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## PatrickJ (4 Dec 2014)

I'm honestly shocked by some of the responses.  I'm as agitated as the next person out there but what I was simply trying to say is - I think there where more unjust taxes plonked on us all in the past and yet they didn't get the same reaction as the Water Tax.  

Where were the hoards when I and umpteen others were been threatened with repossession?

Where were the protesters when I lost and others lost their jobs?

Our only crime was unemployment.  A lot of people on this forum were very much of the view that if you couldn't pay than hand your home back to the bank so I am shocked by some of the responses in favor of the march.

I have to but I will respond later.


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## blueband (4 Dec 2014)

PatrickJ said:


> I'm honestly shocked by some of the responses. I'm as agitated as the next person out there but what I was simply trying to say is - I think there where more unjust taxes plonked on us all in the past and yet they didn't get the same reaction as the Water Tax.
> 
> Where were the hoards when I and umpteen others were been threatened with repossession?
> 
> ...


ever hear of the 'last straw' ?


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## Delboy (4 Dec 2014)

PatrickJ said:


> ....A lot of people on this forum were very much of the view that if you couldn't pay than hand your home back to the bank so I am shocked by some of the responses in favor of the march.



Ahhhmm, thats how the system works (or is supposed to)! You get a mortgage, buy a house...if you can't afford it at some stage, then you lose the house!

It's not a heads you win, tails I lose type of deal, though that is how it has turned out for tens of thousands in this country who are now many years into free accommodation at the expense of the rest!


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## flowerman (4 Dec 2014)

PatrickJ said:


> I'm honestly shocked by some of the responses.
> *Where were the hoards when I and umpteen others were been threatened with repossession?*
> 
> *Where were the protesters when I lost and others lost their jobs?*
> ...


 
Patrick,with regards to the water protests and your posts,one less bill for you to have to pay is that bit more money in your pocket for you to pay your mortgage and therefore stay in your house.


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## PatrickJ (4 Dec 2014)

Hi Flowerman, I agree but I believe a lot worse has happened and it hasn't warranted the reaction that the Water Charge has.  Blueband, has mentioned its the last straw with people but I simply cannot comprehend how people could have allowed the situation get to the stage its at now before they got off their proverbial; so, so much worse has already happened.

Rent allowance recipients have been cushioned by their landlords i.e. LPT.  Did the RA recipients give a dam about home owners paying LPT?    

Leper, believes I am unchristian - this is simply untrue.


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## Firefly (4 Dec 2014)

Marion said:


> The main reason I won't be protesting is that I have signed up to pay my water charges. I believe that we should all be funding expenses such as this.
> 
> The second reason is that I could not possibly see myself marching with a certain crew of lunatics or shinners - (I'm not talking about the many reasonable people who might also be there).
> 
> ...



Hi Marion,

Very well made points and I agree with them all, especially how it is benefiting the shinners.

However, I have the following issues with the whole thing:

The set up costs and fees to consultants. 
Bonuses to staff (withdrawn under pressure) when a single invoice hadn't been issued!
The low cap on charges - essentially proving that this is just another tax rather than a water preservation exercise.

The whole exercise is simply to move the debts off the national debt - an accounting sleight of hand if you will. 

I think the turnout on the 10th will be a lower than previous turnouts though, the whole issue doesn't seem to dominate the press anymore....most people are sensible and realise that water costs money and probably feel like they've had a victory and just want to get on celebrating Christmas. It's probably a pity though as it's clear what can be achieved if enough people get behind something...

Firefly.


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## Ceist Beag (4 Dec 2014)

Firefly said:


> Hi Marion,
> 
> Very well made points and I agree with them all, especially how it is benefiting the shinners.
> 
> ...



+1 Firefly and Marion. Add to the list of issues I have with Irish Water is the fact that over twice as many staff are employed as are required, simply because the unions would not allow it any other way - funny enough those same unions will be represented on the 10th no doubt arguing against Irish Water!


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## Sophrosyne (4 Dec 2014)

Patrick,

I agree with Socrates in that “Group 2” has despicably and hypocritically hijacked a movement about what was a genuine last straw for those in desperate circumstances.

However, I think your resentment is misdirected.

There was nothing to stop people, _including you_, organising themselves and taking to the streets in protest about the things you mentioned.


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## michaelm (4 Dec 2014)

Many will view the march as an opportunity to protest against the incompetence and dishonesty of FG/Lab.


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## so-crates (4 Dec 2014)

This set-up costs ire unreasonable and knee-jerk. In terms of the set up - it is a one-off cost and based on the size and complexity of the organisation it was never going to come cheap. Anyone have much experience dealing with wayleaves and transferring a country-load of them from multiple county councils and corporations while at the same time those self-same councils are being re-organised on a scale that has not been undertaken in the history of the State? Or how about sorting out all the planning permission questions? Let alone the jobs of collecting data not previously held about service users and building the business processes and technical solutions to allow you to manage that data on an ongoing basis? All of that before you even take a peek at the day-to-day work of what Irish Water has been established to do. 

The reason to bring in consultants and contractors to do something is that the expertise or manpower (or both) does not exist in house and that the activity is one you don't want to become an expert in. I for one am happier for a (probably) expensive consultant to be brought in temporarily than for them to become (probably) slightly less expensive employees.


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## Conan (4 Dec 2014)

It is somewhat ironic that certain groups (e.g. Unions) have on the one hand complained about hiring temporary Consultants and yet they were the ones that insisted on all Council staff transferring to Irish Water on a permanent basis. The same Unions who are leaders of the anti Irish Water campaign are also complaining about Irish Water staff not getting bonuses. 
In my opinion, the likes of Paul Murphy, Ruth Copponger etc are nothing more than populist "ambulance chasers". Their political objective is simply to cause as much unrest as possible and they will take whatever opportunity they can to grap headlines. I heard Murphy say on Vincent Browne that his policy was to have a "wealth tax" which would be 5% p.a. on assets. So after 10 years the State would own over 50% of all private businesses, farms and other assets. Sounds like we are heading back to the USSR (which is in line Ruth Coppinger's Marxist political beliefs).
So I hope the 10th is a damp squib.


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## BillK (4 Dec 2014)

Clean water is expensive to treat and deliver; surely it is reasonable for the consumer to pay for it.
I should point out that I live in England, was employed in the water industry for many years and paid the appropriate charges. I am still paying now that I'm retired.


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## blueband (4 Dec 2014)

BillK said:


> Clean water is expensive to treat and deliver; surely it is reasonable for the consumer to pay for it.
> I should point out that I live in England, was employed in the water industry for many years and paid the appropriate charges. I am still paying now that I'm retired.


We have being paying for years....


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## DerKaiser (4 Dec 2014)

I won't be protesting for a number of reasons:
1) It's reasonable to pay for water
2) I'll be working
3) the economy is recovering, no good will come from endangering that
4) There have been far bigger impacts for me from USC, etc
5) The tax will be spread across everyone, not just top-rate taxpayers
6) I won't be duped into the most unashamedly obvious political stunt of a generation. Anyone who thinks the anti-water charge politicians are doing this for reasons other than cynical self interest is naive in the extreme.


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## Deiseblue (4 Dec 2014)

Ceist Beag said:


> +1 Firefly and Marion. Add to the list of issues I have with Irish Water is the fact that over twice as many staff are employed as are required, simply because the unions would not allow it any other way - funny enough those same unions will be represented on the 10th no doubt arguing against Irish Water!



Actually it was the Government who undertook that there would be no compulsory redundancies if the Unions agreed to accept both the Croke Park & Haddington Road agreements , natural attrition & a mooted voluntary severance package will reduce the amount of local authority employees dramatically in the coming years - apparently the average age of transferred employees is 49 !

Although the Unions & in particular the right to water campaign have probably succeeded beyond their dreams in reducing the charges to a trickle  there is probably a feeling that further concerted pressure will ensure votes for left wing parties going forward & a more compliant Government when it comes to pay increases across both sectors - given the IPSOS poll in today's Times it would appear that the Government may have to buy the next General Election.


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## blueband (4 Dec 2014)

DerKaiser said:


> 6) I won't be duped into the most unashamedly obvious political stunt of a generation. Anyone who thinks the anti-water charge politicians are doing this for reasons other than cynical self interest is naive in the extreme.


hate to burst your bubble, but that's the only reason every politician dose anything...


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## Betsy Og (4 Dec 2014)

The charge is now €3 a week for 2 adults, or to put it in context that's a pack of 20 cigarettes every 3 weeks, or one slab of Dutch Gold every 2 months. I dont see that as open desolation.

Ok it was set up poorly, and there are many things wrong with the country, but why must every cause be wrapped around a reasonable water charge?? 

Is it a case of last straw or first straw?

If this is such a worthy cause why cant the protesters make any cogent arguments against the water charge as introduced??, as opposed to every other populist nonsense thrown it. What I mostly hear is "We're paying for it already" and "I dont care, I'm not paying". 

Unfortunately, outside of the fairytale land of Sinn Fein economics, things must be paid for. If the "I dont care I'm not paying" brigade dont pay then who, pray, will pay? It'll be the taxpayer of course. 

Just how far should the welfare state go???, there's absolutely no reason anyone should be paying bin charges (to go by the logic of the protesters) - oh sorry, maybe "the rich", those root of all evil crowd, lets make them pay. Some absolute ninny (Socialist Fantasist Party or some such) wanted to nationalise Dell last week - you just have to wonder what planet these people live on.

There's only 1 solution, hand it over to Revenue, they did the biz on LPT, hard to believe we'd be asking the Revenue to save the taxpayer but if the lunatics (SF) take over the asylum that's where we'll be.


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## flowerman (4 Dec 2014)

Betsy Og said:


> *The charge is now €3 a week for 2 adults*, or to put it in context that's a pack of 20 cigarettes every 3 weeks, or one slab of Dutch Gold every 2 months. I dont see that as open desolation.
> 
> Ok it was set up poorly, and there are many things wrong with the country, but why must every cause be wrapped around a reasonable water charge??
> 
> ...


 

*Now* is the important word there.

Wait for 4 years and lets see how high the CER ramps up the cost and decreases the usage allowence.

Look at what the CER did with gas and electricity prices over the last number of years.

Then lets wait and see when IW is sold off how high the charges go.This is FG and Labours master plan and ultimate goal is,to sell it off,as per the exact wording and draughting of the IW act which they oversaw.




Either way it will be a lot lot more than a packet of ciggies,I can tell you that much.


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## flowerman (4 Dec 2014)

PatrickJ said:


> Hi Flowerman, I agree but I believe a lot worse has happened and it hasn't warranted the reaction that the Water Charge has. Blueband, has mentioned its the last straw with people but I simply cannot comprehend how people could have allowed the situation get to the stage its at now before they got off their proverbial; so, so much worse has already happened.
> 
> Rent allowance recipients have been cushioned by their landlords i.e. LPT. Did the RA recipients give a dam about home owners paying LPT?
> 
> Leper, believes I am unchristian - this is simply untrue.


 
Instead of complaining about things,why dont you get out there and march and stand up to FG and Labour.

Yes,Irish people are guilty of not doing much in recent times with regards to protests,but Id say now is the time to stick it to FG and Labour and tell them exactly what you think of them.

You wouldnt go to McDonalds to buy a big mac burger and let be charged for it twice over,so why allow it to happen with water.You allready pay for the water through general taxation so stand up to FG,Labour and IW.Now is the time to do it.

As Ice Cube says,"you can do it put your back into it"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6auk1TkGtVQ


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## rob oyle (4 Dec 2014)

Betsy Og said:


> The charge is now €3 a week for 2 adults, or to put it in context that's a pack of 20 cigarettes every 3 weeks, or one slab of Dutch Gold every 2 months. I dont see that as open desolation.
> 
> Ok it was set up poorly, and there are many things wrong with the country, but why must every cause be wrapped around a reasonable water charge??
> 
> ...


 
Largely reflects my own view, although I don't think we should be going to the Revenue every time there's an issue. I think water should be paid for in the same way as electricity and gas. As the years go by, the state subsidy for IW should be reduced, which will probably mean an increase in the charges, which can be matched by a reduction in taxation. Those that want to use more can pay more as a result. I don't want to pay for my neighbours leaving their lights on or their taps running.


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## Betsy Og (5 Dec 2014)

flowerman said:


> *Now* is the important word there.
> 
> Wait for 4 years and lets see how high the CER ramps up the cost and decreases the usage allowence.



Sure why dont you "just not pay" once you have determined, after a full appraisal of the costs of delivering treated water and dealing with sewage, that it has become too expensive? AFAICS there's no great point of principle at play here, just wanting someone other than the person consuming the utility to pay for it, sure why not let someone pick up the ESB bill too??


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## Betsy Og (5 Dec 2014)

flowerman said:


> You allready pay for the water through general taxation so stand up to FG,Labour and IW.Now is the time to do it.]
> 
> 
> I already pay for social welfare, the justice system, the public health service, none of which I am happy about and get no benefit from and would gladly stop paying for in the morning. Now its the turn of everyone to pay for what they actually use and benefit from and there's an outcry.
> ...


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## Firefly (5 Dec 2014)

so-crates said:


> This set-up costs ire unreasonable and knee-jerk. In terms of the set up - it is a one-off cost and based on the size and complexity of the organisation it was never going to come cheap. Anyone have much experience dealing with wayleaves and transferring a country-load of them from multiple county councils and corporations while at the same time those self-same councils are being re-organised on a scale that has not been undertaken in the history of the State? Or how about sorting out all the planning permission questions? Let alone the jobs of collecting data not previously held about service users and building the business processes and technical solutions to allow you to manage that data on an ongoing basis? All of that before you even take a peek at the day-to-day work of what Irish Water has been established to do.
> 
> The reason to bring in consultants and contractors to do something is that the expertise or manpower (or both) does not exist in house and that the activity is one you don't want to become an expert in. I for one am happier for a (probably) expensive consultant to be brought in temporarily than for them to become (probably) slightly less expensive employees.




My point is that it's clear for all to see now that this is primarily a tax. The low capped rates confirm that water preservation is not the goal here. Surely as a result, hundreds of millions could have been saved by just adding say 50e per quarter to the household charge and directing this to the local councils for water?

How long do you (not you personally!) think it will take Irish Water to even recoup the set up costs, never mind upgrade the network?


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## Delboy (5 Dec 2014)

Deiseblue said:


> Actually it was the Government who undertook that there would be no compulsory redundancies if the Unions agreed to accept both the Croke Park & Haddington Road agreements , natural attrition & a mooted voluntary severance package will reduce the amount of local authority employees dramatically in the coming years - apparently the average age of transferred employees is 49 !



Thats very disingenuous of you there. Imagine if the Govt had said there would be compulsory redundancies (Cork Park, Haddington or not), the Unions would have gone nuts and blocked the whole set-up for years.
There was no Croke Park etc back when the HSE was set up, but no compulsory redundancies then either.
So to paint the Unions as innocents in this is totally incorrect, though par for the course with yourself!

Why is the average age so high I wonder? Perhaps I could have a stab at that.
If I were a Local Authority manager and 2 years or so ago I knew IW was being set up and they were going to take over all aspects of Water Mgmt from all Local Authorities including the staff in those sections, well I would have started planning!
I would have enticed all those in the Local Authority that were surplus or beyond useless or awkward to deal with, into moving into the Water section. That would have meant giving some of them a re-grading or even promotion (so more money!) to ensure they made the move. I would have done this early so they were firmly in position before the transfer date, though I doubt IW cared if they were only put in the week before judging on how IW seem to spend their money so easily.
(didn't the CSO point out that the staffing levels in IW were double what they should be - I believe this helps explain why)

A lot of those staff were then put on to the 'bonus' scheme in IW after negotiations with the Unions, meaning they gave up their previously automatic increments. So I presume some more money was given to the staff in question to accept this.
'Bonuses' are now gone but the staff certainly won't give up whatever sweetner they got originally to accept that new pay deal.

So a lot of the transferred staff will have done well on the double here. Promoted or regraded within their local authority before they left, and giving a pay off of some sort to accept the new payscale regime in IW.
All for doing no extra work, or changing their way of 'working' (which for some I no doubt use that term loosely!)

And that is how we do business in Ireland!


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## so-crates (5 Dec 2014)

Firefly said:


> My point is that it's clear for all to see now that this is primarily a tax. The low capped rates confirm that water preservation is not the goal here. Surely as a result, hundreds of millions could have been saved by just adding say 50e per quarter to the household charge and directing this to the local councils for water?
> 
> How long do you (not you personally!) think it will take Irish Water to even recoup the set up costs, never mind upgrade the network?



As for your scheme of a flat charge on the (now defunct) household charge and continuing with the status quo, you are assuming that having water management fragmented across multiple councils around the country is a good thing. It isn't. We need a national approach to managing our water supply if only for the simple reason that the population gradient is the reverse of the rainfall gradient (more people East, more rain West). The existing system is not sustainable. The set up costs were always going to be substantial - I accept that and understand it. The cost added by having to deal with the truculent minority attempting to blockade, interfere and generally misbehave is far more aggravating.

As for your query about when Irish Water will get down to the business of being Irish Water and upgrading the network (which by the way is not their only function), all existing upgrade projects have been continued and new have been started. Will they have to cut their cloth to suit the penurious measure forced on them by the behaviour of the self-important anti-water brigade? Possibly, I guess it depends on whether the government can find the money to plug the gap the idiots have forced. 

The low, capped, rates are wrong but they are NOT what was intended or proposed. They are as a result of the government capitulating to pressure from the ridiculous and unpleasant campaign being waged by those that do not have the best interests of the country or our water management systems in mind. To present that as evidence that this is "primarily a tax" is disingenuous, it isn't evidence of that. 

I'd rather pay the per usage charge and pay it honestly than "benefit" from this concession that has been made to the idiot brigade. Roll on 2018 when we will hopefully have become habituated to the concept and a more sane charging regime can be imposed (though no doubt the idiot brigade will be out in force again claiming their Pyrrhic "victory" now can and ought to be replicated)


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## Deiseblue (5 Dec 2014)

Delboy said:


> Thats very disingenuous of you there. Imagine if the Govt had said there would be compulsory redundancies (Cork Park, Haddington or not), the Unions would have gone nuts and blocked the whole set-up for years.
> There was no Croke Park etc back when the HSE was set up, but no compulsory redundancies then either.
> So to paint the Unions as innocents in this is totally incorrect, though par for the course with yourself!
> 
> ...



Compulsory redundancies were never on the agenda - the Government stated unequivocally that compulsory redundancies were not on the table & the reduction in numbers would be achieved through natural attrition & programmes of voluntary redundancies - the Governments in question are to be commended on this eminently reasonable solution to a tricky problem .

Of course it is incumbent on Trade Unions to protect the jobs , terms & conditions of their members but thankfully in this instance due to the reasonable attitude of the Government as employers industrial action was not required.

As for your " stab " at outlining the local authority / Irish water connection I have filed that away mentally as fiction as your understanding of the situation is totally unsupported by any semblance of fact - if you would care to post such facts please feel free to do so .

Given that you asked me to answer some queries on the transfer of local authority workers to Irish Water recently ( you never thanked me for my reply incidentally  )suggests that your understanding of such matters is pretty poor.


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## Delboy (5 Dec 2014)

My understanding is actually pretty good of how the PS works as I have spent over half my working life in there!

You can get floury with your language all you want about the Govt stating compulsory redundancies were never on the table etc. If they could have, they would have. But the Unions won't ever allow that and so we're left with a new PS monster, where double the staff requirements exist and the general public pay for it...a la the HSE!


----------



## flowerman (5 Dec 2014)

A very simple and straight to the point video about Irish Water and the money wasted on setting it up.
Its not about fixing water leaks,its about a money making racket and nothing more.Its also a jobs for the boys company too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVjqFA7HNwU#t=121





Lets not forget 81,000 euro a week on legal advice too.Must be some legal advice to get for that price per week.
Oh and Phil Hogan giving a load of his frends and ex councilers nice cushy jobs in various companies and on various boards the week before he leaves for his fat cat salary over in the EU.Jobs for the boys allright.


----------



## Deiseblue (5 Dec 2014)

Delboy said:


> My understanding is actually pretty good of how the PS works as I have spent over half my working life in there!
> 
> You can get floury with your language all you want about the Govt stating compulsory redundancies were never on the table etc. If they could have, they would have. But the Unions won't ever allow that and so we're left with a new PS monster, where double the staff requirements exist and the general public pay for it...a la the HSE!



I have no doubt that your understanding of how the PS workers is pretty good but unfortunately your understanding of the Irish Water / Local authorities scenario is poor.

I would refer you back to my ( still unacknowledeged  ) replies to the queries raised by you - let me rehash my reply as you obviously missed same :
" the local authority workers under service level agreements will continue to work for and be managed by the 34 Local Authorities to which they report & work for - I believe that such agreement expires in 2025 , apparently the average age of such workers is 49 !
Their terms & conditions remain UNCHANGED & such workers are Irish Water employees but are effectively seconded back to the local authorities , the bonus system applies ONLY to the 400 staff directly employed by Irish Water "

Hopefully the bonuses will be reinstated after their removal is challenged & the industrial mechanisms of the State are involved.

As to compulsory redundancies question , it never arose as the Government adopted the correct policies as responsible Employers in reducing staff numbers - no need for Union involvement .

Numbers in local authorities / IW will be reduced by natural attrition & an incentivised voluntary parting package - the humane & responsible solution !


----------



## Firefly (5 Dec 2014)

so-crates said:


> As for your scheme of a flat charge on the (now defunct) household charge and continuing with the status quo, you are assuming that having water management fragmented across multiple councils around the country is a good thing. It isn't. We need a national approach to managing our water supply if only for the simple reason that the population gradient is the reverse of the rainfall gradient (more people East, more rain West). The existing system is not sustainable. The set up costs were always going to be substantial - I accept that and understand it. The cost added by having to deal with the truculent minority attempting to blockade, interfere and generally misbehave is far more aggravating.
> 
> As for your query about when Irish Water will get down to the business of being Irish Water and upgrading the network (which by the way is not their only function), all existing upgrade projects have been continued and new have been started. Will they have to cut their cloth to suit the penurious measure forced on them by the behaviour of the self-important anti-water brigade? Possibly, I guess it depends on whether the government can find the money to plug the gap the idiots have forced.
> 
> ...



I get all that and I agree with you in theory. However, as we know too well in this country, extra taxes / charges have never resulted in better services in any meaningful way. That's why I am so sceptical that the infrastructure will ever be fixed regardless of whether the funds to directly to IW. As I mentioned earlier, there were plenty people on trolleys in the HSE during the Celtic Tiger. Going off point perhaps, and maybe I am lucky, but for all the cuts in spending by the government in recent budgets, I have yet to really feel the impact....the services were never really there!!


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## Leo (5 Dec 2014)

flowerman said:


> You wouldnt go to McDonalds to buy a big mac burger and let be charged for it twice over,so why allow it to happen with water.You allready pay for the water through general taxation so stand up to FG,Labour and IW.Now is the time to do it.



But those currently connected to one of the more than 170,000 private wells in Ireland are paying for their big mac twice, and in mane cases more so. What's the equitable solution to that? Government to pay for every single well and treatment unit in the country?


----------



## Delboy (5 Dec 2014)

Deiseblue said:


> I have no doubt that your understanding of how the PS workers is pretty good but unfortunately your understanding of the Irish Water / Local authorities scenario is poor.
> 
> I would refer you back to my ( still unacknowledeged  ) replies to the queries raised by you - let me rehash my reply as you obviously missed same :
> " the local authority workers under service level agreements will continue to work for and be managed by the 34 Local Authorities to which they report & work for - I believe that such agreement expires in 2025 , apparently the average age of such workers is 49 !
> Their terms & conditions remain UNCHANGED & such workers are Irish Water employees but are effectively seconded back to the local authorities , the bonus system applies ONLY to the 400 staff directly employed by Irish Water "


Didn't realise I had to make an acknowledgement!



> Hopefully the bonuses will be reinstated after their removal is challenged & the industrial mechanisms of the State are involved.


Hopefully indeed!



> As to compulsory redundancies question , it never arose as the Government adopted the correct policies as responsible Employers in reducing staff numbers - no need for Union involvement .


Correct polices! IW has twice the number of staff that it needs.
What the Govt did was bottle the issue as usual, and avoided making a hard decision. Much as they have done recently by backing down to the protests of a small minority. 
Thats why this country is in a mess every few years or so



> Numbers in local authorities / IW will be reduced by natural attrition & an incentivised voluntary parting package - the humane & responsible solution !


Not humane for the taxpayer for sure!


----------



## Deiseblue (5 Dec 2014)

Normally when I raise queries with someone & they answer them I would thank them out of politeness - doesn't apply to everyone I guess !

Hopefully I have now cleared up the confusion under which you laboured vis a vis the local authorities / IW scenario - again !

I cannot understand why people would cheerfully see workers thrown on the scrapheap - thankfully our elected Government feel the same.


----------



## flowerman (5 Dec 2014)

Leo said:


> But those currently connected to one of the more than 170,000 private wells in Ireland are paying for their big mac twice, and in mane cases more so. What's the equitable solution to that? Government to pay for every single well and treatment unit in the country?


 
If you are connected to a private well and can prove it to FG/Labour then you should be rewarded for it in some way in the form of some form of a tax break perhaps?.

I know what you are saying Leo and I do agree with your point,but its unjust and unfair on EVERYONE in some way shape or form.


The video I posted just above your post about Enda Kenny,IW and massive waste of money makes a very good point though and it is a "straight to the point" video.


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## Ceist Beag (5 Dec 2014)

Deiseblue said:


> I cannot understand why people would cheerfully see workers thrown on the scrapheap - thankfully our elected Government feel the same.



That's one view on it. Another would be to say, I cannot understand why people would cheerfully pay twice as much as they need to in order to get a job done. Unfortunately our elected Government didn't see the need to address this.


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## Delboy (5 Dec 2014)

Deiseblue said:


> Normally when I raise queries with someone & they answer them I would thank them out of politeness - doesn't apply to everyone I guess !
> 
> Hopefully I have now cleared up the confusion under which you laboured vis a vis the local authorities / IW scenario - again !
> 
> I cannot understand why people would cheerfully see workers thrown on the scrapheap - thankfully our elected Government feel the same.


Well, I hope the AAM servers can stand all the extra traffic of people thanking each other on a regular basis! But thanks indeed for your feedback and clarifications.

But let's not say you have cleared up any confusions.

I cannot understand why anybody would gladly pay people to 'work' in jobs that don't really exist....smacks of the USSR to me. But there you go, each to their own


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## roker (5 Dec 2014)

It should be called an Austerity demo. it not about water, it is about Austerity, corruption and cronyism, Why did Irish water refuse to have free meters from Siemens? because there are cronies with business interest involved, they are already €1.5m over budget for fitting meters. Why are the top people on such high wages? and bonuses before a drop of water is supplied?


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## Marion (5 Dec 2014)

Hi Roker

You should perhaps send an email to the organisers? There is still time for them to change the headline banner!

It would also be very helpful for those who think they will be marching in relation to the water charges. 

Many will travel up from the country by road and rail and it would be important that they know in advance what they are actually marching for.

Many others will be making the effort from Dublin.

Those who are working will have to take a day's holiday. Fair play to them. No doubt there will be a number who will pull a sickie  

Regards

Marion

Ps: Hope those who pull a sickie don't appear on the News. That'd be deadly altogether


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## Deiseblue (5 Dec 2014)

Delboy said:


> Well, I hope the AAM servers can stand all the extra traffic of people thanking each other on a regular basis! But thanks indeed for your feedback and clarifications.
> 
> But let's not say you have cleared up any confusions.
> 
> I cannot understand why anybody would gladly pay people to 'work' in jobs that don't really exist....smacks of the USSR to me. But there you go, each to their own



Let's not be disingenuous  , admit it - you thought all the workers transferred from the local authorities were on bonuses & were bought off to sign off the incremental system  - absolute nonsense , let me reiterate their terms & conditions remain UNCHANGED  , the only IW workers who were signed up to the bonus system are the 400 employed directly by IW - apparently of which slightly more than 100 were recruited from the local authorities .

As compulsory redundancies are simply not going to happen - facts have to be faced ,the  local authority workforce will reduce by approx 1000 over the short term by natural attrition & voluntary severance .

Such are the facts & no amount of carping is going to change matters - it's done & dusted & no amount of discussion here is going to change that .


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## Sunny (5 Dec 2014)

If 100,000 people decide to march around the country for whatever reason, why can they not be respected instead of been ridiculed by people who think they are intellectually superior because they alone understand the concept of water been a precious resource that needs to be paid for. Not everyone who will protest is a political and economic imbecile who is taken in by the likes of SF and people like Paul Murphy. You might not agree with them and you might be more than happy to pay water charges and with everything else the Government does but it doesn't mean you are somehow superior to somebody who might decide to protest at the weekend. 

By the way, the protests will be a damp squib. If not, the government are finished because its not about water then.


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## Marion (5 Dec 2014)

I Can't say that I feel intellectually superior to people on AAM!

There are some who can be influenced by strong people. There are others who don't care one way or the other.

We live in a democracy.

We can all voice our opinions. Whether we agree with them or not is irrevelant.

I would sincerely love to pay less taxes. I am a single earner.  

This might be achieved by everybody paying a share of some expenses  - for example water  - to lessen the burden on those of us who pay taxes.  it would be great to see a sharing of the tax burden. I can't recall who said it above but I agree totally: I really don't wat to pay for the neighbour who runs the tap indiscriminately! I am totally of the opinion that people should pay per use.

At the end of the day, we  all have our agendas.

Marion


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## flowerman (5 Dec 2014)

Marion said:


> I Can't say that I feel intellectually superior to people on AAM!
> 
> There are some who can be influenced by strong people. There are others who don't care one way or the other.
> 
> ...


 

Maybe if the likes of certain Irish musicians and businessmen who constantly like to waffle on about "how great it is to be Irish" and "the Irish people bailed out Ireland" paid their taxes here in Ireland then things might be a tad better for us all.

Im sick and tired of 1 Irish musician who allways pops up at these high profile media events and says how great it is to be Irish.

If you are "so proud to be Irish" then why dont you and your band mates pay your taxes here in this country.


But as is usual Mr Enda Kenny is more than happy to be photographed with him at these events.
My stomach churns when I see the 2 of them standing side by side together smiling for the cameras.


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## PatrickJ (6 Dec 2014)

+1 Flowerman.



roker said:


> It should be called an Austerity demo. it not about water, it is about Austerity, corruption and cronyism, Why did Irish water refuse to have free meters from Siemens? because there are cronies with business interest involved, they are already €1.5m over budget for fitting meters. Why are the top people on such high wages? and bonuses before a drop of water is supplied?



Exactly.  It really got under my skin.  Why not name it Property Repossession, LPT or USC?  Would this determine how many would actually turn up on the 10th as neither three actually effect a certain element in this country.

Where are all the landlords on this forum who have been stung left, right and center by rent allowance recipients?

We have already been vindicated.  Where were the socialists when your tenant in receipt of rent allowance refused to pay you?  I could go on and on.


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## Leper (7 Dec 2014)

PatrickJ said:


> +1 Flowerman.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thank you Patrick, I never was aware that landlords were pressganged into accepting rent allowance recipients, right, left and centre.

Basic Credit Management practices would ensure some kind of payment for rent.

Please go on and on.


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## Purple (8 Dec 2014)

flowerman said:


> Maybe if the likes of certain Irish musicians and businessmen who constantly like to waffle on about "how great it is to be Irish" and "the Irish people bailed out Ireland" paid their taxes here in Ireland then things might be a tad better for us all.
> 
> Im sick and tired of 1 Irish musician who allways pops up at these high profile media events and says how great it is to be Irish.
> 
> ...


You do know that the artists exemption is capped at the first €250'000 of earnings, right?
U2 all live here and pay their taxes here. I presume you are talking about Bono. I do agree that's he's annoying (and bombastic etc.) but we are all allowed to be that.



Marion said:


> I Can't say that I feel intellectually superior to people on AAM!
> 
> There are some who can be influenced by strong people. There are others who don't care one way or the other.
> 
> ...


I'd like to see the state waste less tax payers money. We have the worst value for money health service in the OECD. That means we waste billions a year.
The money we waste paying 2000 unnecessary staff in Irish Water (and by extension the other thousands of unnecessary staff in other public bodies) could be used to fix our homelessness crisis or have proper educational facilities or more teachers or more Gardaí etc.. I find is incredible that a poster thinks wasting money on thousands of pointless jobs is a virtue while we have people on trollies in our hospitals. I find it incredible that the Brethren who run our Unions are happy to perpetuate such waste, waste which damages our country and leaves so many people behind. Then again the poor and the vulnerable and those who really need help can't pay their dues so they are of no interest to Unions. 

I'd like to see a march protesting against the loony left and the Unions that have done so much damage to this country and the incompetence that the state shows over and over again when spending our money. You could throw in the bankers and developers (one of whom is a TD) as well but they were only part of the problem.
 I'd protest not because I pay so much tax but because it is so badly spent, so badly used and directed. I'd protest against the criminal incompetence which causes so much suffering for so many people... but there will be no march; those who share my views are, like me, too busy working and paying their taxes.


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## flowerman (8 Dec 2014)

Purple said:


> You do know that the artists exemption is capped at the first €250'000 of earnings, right?
> U2 all live here and pay their taxes here. I presume you are talking about Bono. I do agree that's he's annoying (and bombastic etc.) but we are all allowed to be that.


 

Joan Burton attacks Bono and U2 for moving their business to Holland.

*Social Protection Minister Joan Burton singled out U2 in a speech during which she stated it was "not acceptable" that some companies were not paying their fair share of taxes to help pay for essential public services.* 

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/bono-u2-tax-affairs-in-line-with-irish-policy-29598593.html

She wont actually do anyting to go after all these people who wont pay their taxes here in Ireland.
But she was happy to have money taken away from the disabled in Ireland and the likes of medical cards taken from kids with Cancer and Leukemia

And then Mr Enda Kenny can stand beside Bono at various media events talking to the public about about Ireland and "Being Irish" and "Paying your way" and then smile along with him for the cameras.

Its a rather funny and sickening auld world,isnt it.


----------



## Purple (8 Dec 2014)

flowerman said:


> Joan Burton attacks Bono and U2 for moving their business to Holland.
> 
> *Social Protection Minister Joan Burton singled out U2 in a speech during which she stated it was "not acceptable" that some companies were not paying their fair share of taxes to help pay for essential public services.*
> 
> ...


U2 moved their music publishing business to Holland, they still pay their income tax here.
I’m not a big fan of systemic tax avoidance but if you’re going to criticise them then get the facts straight. I do agree that Bono can be hard to listen to.

As for Joan Burton criticising people for moving their companies to avoid tax where they live and/or conduct their business well, considering how many US companies are here doing exactly the same thing, she’s very hypocritical really, isn’t she?
Irish people who live in other countries pay taxes in those countries just as people from other countries who live here pay their taxes here.


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## flowerman (8 Dec 2014)

Purple said:


> U2 moved their music publishing business to Holland, they still pay their income tax here.
> I’m not a big fan of systemic tax avoidance but if you’re are going to criticise them then get the facts straight. I do agree that Bono can be hard to listen to.
> 
> As for Joan Burton criticising people for moving their companies to avoid tax where they live and/or conduct their business well, considering how many US companies are here doing exactly the same thing, she’s very hypocritical really, isn’t she?
> Irish people who live in other countries pay taxes in those countries just as people from other countries who live here pay their taxes here.




So if Bono is so proud to be Irish then why wont he pay all of his taxes here??
Why did he move the company over to Holland to avoid taxes here??

Sorry,but Bono doesnt represent me or my family when he stands up at these media events and beside Enda Kenny and lord it over the public that he is "Proud to be Irish paying your way" and that "The Irish People bailed out Ireland".

I think that Bono is a very condescending person in what he talks about.I actually cannot stand him for this very reason.
Enda Kenny has some cheek too to allow Bono to stand with him and give all these "Irish" speeches and tell us all about paying our way.


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## Leper (8 Dec 2014)

flowerman said:


> So if Bono is so proud to be Irish then why wont he pay all of his taxes here??
> Why did he move the company over to Holland to avoid taxes here??
> 
> Sorry,but Bono doesnt represent me or my family when he stands up at these media events and beside Enda Kenny and lord it over the public that he is "Proud to be Irish paying your way" and that "The Irish People bailed out Ireland.
> ...



1. It's cheaper to pay tax elsewhere.(It's not rocket science, you know).
2. Bono never said he represented anybody else other than himself and U2
3. I reckon Bono is shivering in his boots at your admonition.
4. Take the matter up with Enda.  I'm sure he will be delighted to reply to you.


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## flowerman (8 Dec 2014)

Sorry I went  off topic,so I will leave Bono to enjoy his tax avoiding mega rich status in peace and quiet now.

Back to the water protests,I think Enda and Joan have something else to worry about in the form of a large protest on Wednesday outside the Dail.


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## Marion (8 Dec 2014)

http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-...ed-up-why-i-m-marching-on-wednesday-1.2029940

Good story. But what does it have to do with Water Charges? 

"That’s why I’ll be marching in Dublin this Wednesday, December 10th. I’ll be marching for my future, for the future of the generations to come, and for the future of my country."

Do people even know what the march is about? Did they not even go to the bother of informing themselves of what this particular protest concerns? Or do they even care? Are they just marching on their own agenda for their 15 minutes of fame? The mind boggles!

Marion


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## TarfHead (8 Dec 2014)

The reason I won't be marching on Wednesday is that it would be hypocritical of me to do so having already returned my details to Irish Water .

Other reasons include Paul Murphy, Ruth Coppinger, Richard Boyd-Barrett, the Gerry Adams cult devotees, aka Sinn Fein.

Ours is a broken system, riddled with cronyism, tolerance for mediocrity, waste, tribal loyalism, post-colonialism immaturity, but it's one I would choose to retain every time, over the car crash that would ensure if any of the above had their hands on the reins of Government.


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## Marion (8 Dec 2014)

Tarfhead:

Post of the month. 

Marion


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## Conan (8 Dec 2014)

TarfHead,
Exactly right. Paul Murphy, Ruth Coppinger, People Before Profit and SF would organise a march against rainfall if they could figure out a way to blame the Government for it. Political opportunists the lot.


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## so-crates (9 Dec 2014)

tarfhead said:


> the reason i won't be marching on wednesday is that it would be hypocritical of me to do so having already returned my details to irish water :d.
> 
> Other reasons include paul murphy, ruth coppinger, richard boyd-barrett, the gerry adams cult devotees, aka sinn fein.
> 
> Ours is a broken system, riddled with cronyism, tolerance for mediocrity, waste, tribal loyalism, post-colonialism immaturity, but it's one i would choose to retain every time, over the car crash that would ensure if any of the above had their hands on the reins of government.


 Brilliant!


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## Purple (9 Dec 2014)

Marion said:


> Tarfhead:
> 
> Post of the month.
> 
> Marion



Big +1


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## Firefly (9 Dec 2014)

TarfHead said:


> The reason I won't be marching on Wednesday is that it would be hypocritical of me to do so having already returned my details to Irish Water .
> 
> Other reasons include Paul Murphy, Ruth Coppinger, Richard Boyd-Barrett, the Gerry Adams cult devotees, aka Sinn Fein.
> 
> Ours is a broken system, riddled with cronyism, tolerance for mediocrity, waste, tribal loyalism, post-colonialism immaturity, but it's one I would choose to retain every time, over the car crash that would ensure if any of the above had their hands on the reins of Government.



Well said.


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## michaelm (9 Dec 2014)

TarfHead said:


> The reason I won't be marching on Wednesday is that it would be hypocritical of me to do so having already returned my details to Irish Water .


Not everyone who returned a completed form will pay.  Some will have felt cowed at the time but feel emboldened or angry now.





TarfHead said:


> Other reasons include Paul Murphy, Ruth Coppinger, Richard Boyd-Barrett, the Gerry Adams cult devotees, aka Sinn Fein.


I'm going (isn't it an assembly rather than a march?) despite the above.  I've no time for any of them but I'm done with this arrogant Government and would like to see it fall.





TarfHead said:


> Ours is a broken system, riddled with cronyism, tolerance for mediocrity, waste, tribal loyalism, post-colonialism immaturity, but it's one I would choose to retain every time, over the car crash that would ensure if any of the above had their hands on the reins of Government.


Indeed, but it is not an either-or situation.  An election will most likely see a more chastened centre-right government returned.


----------



## Purple (9 Dec 2014)

michaelm said:


> Indeed, but it is not an either-or situation.  An election will most likely see a more chastened centre-right government returned.


FG is slightly centre-right. Every other party in the country is to the left of centre. How will we end up with a centre-right government?


----------



## michaelm (9 Dec 2014)

I would view FG, FF & Reform Alliance as centre-right.  My point is that the next government will likely be FG/FF+ rather some lefty hotchpotch.


----------



## Purple (9 Dec 2014)

michaelm said:


> I would view FG, FF & Reform Alliance as centre-right.  My point is that the next government will likely be FG/FF+ rather some lefty hotchpotch.



I'd hate to see what you call left-wing if you consider FF centre-right!
We have the most progressive income taxation in the developed world and the highest proportion of households on welfare in Europe (with amongst the highest welfare rates in the world). That's hardly the legacy of decades of right-wing governments.


----------



## TarfHead (9 Dec 2014)

michaelm said:


> Indeed, but it is not an either-or situation.  An election will most likely see a more chastened centre-right government returned.



The polls indicate that LAB will be wiped out at the next election, with a lot of the people who voted for them in 2011 switching to SF and Independents.  The people who voted for them were swayed by Gilmore's bluster and empty promises and will likely be swayed by someone else telling them what they want to hear.  After a month or two, the status quo will assert itself and the same policies will be followed.

The next Government will feature either Fine Gael or Sinn Fein.  Either way, it will be dependent on the support of a disparate group of Independents with disparate agendas, and will be unlikely to last a full term.

If Sinn Fein are in Government, based on a Dail representation of 40 or so seats, they'll be able to maintain their numbers.  I can't see individuals jumping ship in the way the current Government 'lost' Lucinda Creighton, Roisin Shortall, Denis Naughten, Tommy Broughan, Terence Flanagan, etc.


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## michaelm (9 Dec 2014)

Purple said:


> I'd hate to see what you call left-wing if you consider FF centre-right!


Last try; left-right is a bit simplistic anyway but relatively speaking I would place FG rightmost on a  left-to-right line of Irish politics, with the Reform Alliance and FF  just inside that.  Unfortunately, some mix of those is the best I can hope for.





TarfHead said:


> The next Government will feature either Fine Gael or Sinn Fein.  Either way, it will be dependent on the support of a disparate group of Independents with disparate agendas, and will be unlikely to last a full term.


Maybe you're right but I don't think so;  make a FG/FF+ coalition a 1/2 shot.


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## Purple (9 Dec 2014)

michaelm said:


> Last try; left-right is a bit simplistic anyway but relatively speaking I would place FG rightmost on a  left-to-right line of Irish politics, with the Reform Alliance and FF  just inside that.


Last try at what?
FG are centre(ish) with conservative(ish) social policies and centralist/left-wing economic policies. The rest rage to the left of them but we have no pro-business, pro-work parties in this country. They all believe in big government and high taxes.


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## michaelm (9 Dec 2014)

Purple said:


> FG are centre(ish) with conservative(ish) social policies and centralist/left-wing economic policies.


Broadly speaking might you use the same description for FF?


----------



## Purple (9 Dec 2014)

michaelm said:


> Broadly speaking might you use the same description for FF?



Yes, but a little more liberal and a little more to the left.


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## Delboy (10 Dec 2014)

So we're down to about 30-40k protesters and they're allowed to shut down the City centre for most of the day.
The Luas and Bus services weren't running through the city centre. So I had to walk from Parkgate street to Irishtown, about 1hr 15mins. At O'Connell bridge about 50 protesters blocked the traffic on either end, and about 10 people blocked the luas on Abbey St. And there sole objective was to block traffic. All of course flying tricolours - real patriots.
The Riot Squad were sat in their vans around the corner on Pearse St, looking at their phones and chilling out, instead of cracking skulls and allowing traffic to flow.

Absolutely fuming that a rabble like this can continually block traffic every time the Left have a protest in Dublin. Joke


----------



## flowerman (10 Dec 2014)

Delboy said:


> So we're down to about 30-40k protesters and they're allowed to shut down the City centre for most of the day.
> The Luas and Bus services weren't running through the city centre. So I had to walk from Parkgate street to Irishtown, about 1hr 15mins. At O'Connell bridge about 50 protesters blocked the traffic on either end, and about 10 people blocked the luas on Abbey St. And there sole objective was to block traffic. All of course flying tricolours - real patriots.
> The Riot Squad were sat in their vans around the corner on Pearse St, looking at their phones and chilling out, instead of cracking skulls and allowing traffic to flow.
> 
> Absolutely fuming that a rabble like this can continually block traffic every time the Left have a protest in Dublin. Joke


 

1st of all it was more than that and it was also a weekday too.

2nd of all
Did you see the various news stations and see the diverse type of people who marched peacefully.
People from places Donnybrook,Rathfarnham,Ballsbridge,Sandyford,Clontarf,Howth and so on.People who traveled to Dublin from all parts of the country.People who took a few hours off work to march in protest.Unemployed people,pensioners,disabled.They all marched today in a peacefull manner for a cause,to show Enda Kenny and Joan Burton just how annoyed they are and also to say to Enda and Joan that its time to listen to the people.

And you want to classify them as rabble??


Also for you to suggest that the gardai should have battoned and cracked the skulls of these peacefully protesting people,I find that very disturbing indeed.

I wonder what you will say in several years time when Enda,Joan and the EU get their way and IW is sold off and you have a huge water bill to contend with.


----------



## flowerman (10 Dec 2014)

Next protest in Dublin is at the end of January and it will be on a Saturday too.
2 days before the deadline to register with IW.


----------



## Delboy (10 Dec 2014)

flowerman said:


> 1st of all it was more than that and it was also a weekday too.
> 
> 2nd of all
> Did you see the various news stations and see the diverse type of people who marched peacefully.
> ...



So you saw it on TV and are an expert on it. 
The Protest was at the Dail and Merrion Sq,,,,nothing whatsoever to do with deliberately blocking O'Connell bridge and the Luas line from 4-7pm. All public and private transport was stopped. Huge discomfort caused to tens of thousands by no more than 100 people. And for that reason the Gardai should have moved in, asked them to move and if nothing happened, draw batons.

Simples


----------



## flowerman (10 Dec 2014)

Delboy said:


> So you saw it on TV and are an expert on it.
> The Protest was at the Dail and Merrion Sq,,,,nothing whatsoever to do with deliberately blocking O'Connell bridge and the Luas line from 4-7pm. All public and private transport was stopped. Huge discomfort caused to tens of thousands by no more than 100 people. And for that reason the Gardai should have moved in, asked them to move and if nothing happened, draw batons.
> 
> Simples


 
I was actually in town myself today,I then watched it on 3 news channels later on this evening when I got home.
A wide diversity of people who peacefully protested.People from all walks of society,young and old too,abled and disabled.Alot of people took to the protest while on their lunch or took time off work today to protest.Yes,they disrupted Dublin city centre and traffic was mad busy for a time,but they did so in a completely peacefull manner so there was no need for the riot squad to "crack skulls"

I wonder what you might say in 4-5 years time when IW is sold off and you have to contend with a huge water bill?
Or when the cap is lifted and the CER ramps up water rates year on year.
They do that with gas and electricity rates,so they will do it with water rates too.


----------



## Delboy (10 Dec 2014)

Shame they didn't stay at the Dail so, rather than impose their minority views on the real 'working class' in this country


----------



## flowerman (10 Dec 2014)

Delboy said:


> Shame they didn't stay at the Dail so, rather than impose their minority views on the real 'working class' in this country


 
Im working class and I salute the protestors for protesting today.And in a completely peacefull manner too.I also salute the gardai too for being civil and respectfull of the protestors and where they protested.I actually watched 3 gardai having a good laugh and nice chat with several male and female protestors at the corner of O,Connell Street earlier today.It was all good humoured and very civil too.
I will be there marching at the next protest in January and my wife and daughter will be with me too.


----------



## Delboy (10 Dec 2014)

flowerman said:


> Im working class and I salute the protestors for protesting today.
> I will be there marching at the next protest in January and my wife and daughter will be with me too.



Thats not the point I'm making but you probably know that and like Boyd Barret et al, won't condemn the mayhem caused by the groups deliberately blocking traffic in the City centre at rush hour...which was a good distance away from where the protests were supposed to have being held


----------



## flowerman (11 Dec 2014)

Delboy said:


> Thats not the point I'm making but you probably know that and like Boyd Barret et al, won't condemn the mayhem caused by the groups deliberately blocking traffic in the City centre at rush hour...which was a good distance away from where the protests were supposed to have being held


 

Rather odd that you decided to remove allmost half of my previous post,in order to suit yourself.You know the part about the gardai and peacefull protestors on O'Connell Street having a laugh and nice civil chat with each other.Funny that you purposely removed that part of my post.Its like as if you wanted to avoid it and side step it alltogether.




With regards to this post of yours...............
I work,I work hard,Im a working class person.So too does my wife.I voted FG last time.The goverment now take alot of money off of both of us in the form of taxes and cuts aswell.Tax this,tax that,tax the other.We work longer hours for less pay and we dont get to spend as much time with our daughter as we should.
And FG/Labour want to try and ruin our futures even more now,and also our daughters future too.Charge this,charge that,charge the other.
We have had enough and wont take any more of it.

I was in town myself today on business and I got delayed too.But my wife and myself both salute the protestors and their reason for protesting today in and around Dublin City Centre.

Myself,my wife and my daughter will be there in January protesting.I will enjoy making some colourfull placards with my daughter for the protest.


----------



## michaelm (11 Dec 2014)

Delboy said:


> So we're down to about 30-40k protesters and they're allowed to shut down the City centre for most of the day.


There were circa 40,000 people around Merrion Sq/Dáil.  The disruption was minimal given the numbers.  There was a wide demographic, all seemed good natured and good humoured.  It should have been bookended though, perhaps ending at 3pm rather than dragging on.





Delboy said:


> At O'Connell bridge about 50 protesters blocked the traffic on either end, and about 10 people blocked the luas on Abbey St. And there sole objective was to block traffic.


This is separate and unrepresentative of the main protest, and the Gardaí should have dealt with it.


----------



## DB74 (11 Dec 2014)

Protest crowd "officially" measured at 32,040!

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/poli...-attracts-32-000-says-crowdsize-app-1.2033259

Slightly less than the 100,000 claimed by the Right2Water campaign


----------



## Delboy (11 Dec 2014)

flowerman said:


> Rather odd that you decided to remove allmost half of my previous post,in order to suit yourself.You know the part about the gardai and peacefull protestors on O'Connell Street having a laugh and nice civil chat with each other.Funny that you purposely removed that part of my post.Its like as if you wanted to avoid it and side step it alltogether.
> 
> With regards to this post of yours...............
> I work,I work hard,Im a working class person.So too does my wife.I voted FG last time.The goverment now take alot of money off of both of us in the form of taxes and cuts aswell.Tax this,tax that,tax the other.We work longer hours for less pay and we dont get to spend as much time with our daughter as we should.
> ...



I'll quote you fully this time lest you think there's a conspiracy theory at play!

You are like a politician in how you won't answer the question. I take it so from your evasive response that you support the likes of Eirigi blocking the main arteries in town, nearly a mile away from where the protest was officially held. For no reason other than to be seen to be the hard men, and to garner publicity for themselves alone.

I don't care whether the Gardai were chatting and laughing with protesters at O'Connell bridge- perhaps they were earlier in the day, during the march. And thats good to see.
But there were no Gardai having a laugh at 6pm in the evening on O'Connell bridge- they were too bust standing back letting a few layabouts and trouble makers disrupt the lives of the 'working class' who were working yesterday! 
This is now becoming a custom during city centre protests - if the crack down had happened the 1st day they tried it, they wouldn't be doing it still. But like everything in this country, laws are selectively enforced.


----------



## michaelm (11 Dec 2014)

DB74 said:


> Protest crowd "officially" measured at 32,040!


Who could argue with an App.


----------



## Purple (11 Dec 2014)

flowerman said:


> I work,I work hard,Im a working class person.So too does my wife.I voted FG last time.The goverment now take alot of money off of both of us in the form of taxes and cuts aswell.Tax this,tax that,tax the other.We work longer hours for less pay and we dont get to spend as much time with our daughter as we should.
> 
> And FG/Labour want to try and ruin our futures even more now,and also our daughters future too.Charge this,charge that,charge the other.
> We have had enough and wont take any more of it.


 I’m working class as well; I derive my income from my days work. I take home less money than I did in 2008, despite pay increases as my tax and health insurance rates have gone through the roof. I am part of the group who has seen the biggest proportional reductions in net income. I see these increases in tax as absolutely necessary in order to sort out the mess that previous governments caused (FF/PD, FF/Labour, FF/Green). I see them as necessary to safeguard my children’s future. The populism of the economically illiterate hodge-dodge collection of leaders of the anti-water charges/ anti-austerity/ anti-reality groups frightens me and if they had their hands on the reins of power I would despair for the future of this country. I don’t doubt the sincerity of Paul Murphy though his politics, if followed, would destroy my children’s future. The same applies to Ruth Coppinger and Richard Boyd Barrett. I consider the involvement of the Shinners and the Unions to be completely populist and opportunist.  






flowerman said:


> I was in town myself today on business and I got delayed too.But my wife and myself both salute the protestors and their reason for protesting today in and around Dublin City Centre.


 While I disagree with their views I am glad to see people protesting and engaging in some sort of political activism.


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## DB74 (11 Dec 2014)

michaelm said:


> Who could argue with an App.



Ha Ha - true!

Good to see some sort of logical method used though rather than the usual bluster and "pick a figure out of the sky" effort that normally accompanies these things


----------



## Duke of Marmalade (11 Dec 2014)

30K, 100K whatever?  I think all sides can agree that more than 4 million people did *not* answer the call for a monster rally.

Anybody else get physically sick at the sight of Grisly trying to get in on the act?  This was the guy who (uncharacteristically) said he would keep the law and pay his water charges.  I actually hope the likes of Murphy, Daly, Pottinger et al continue to erode the hitherto SF monopoly on nihilistic protest.


----------



## flowerman (11 Dec 2014)

Delboy said:


> I'll quote you fully this time lest you think there's a conspiracy theory at play!
> 
> You are like a politician in how you won't answer the question. I take it so from your evasive response that you support the likes of Eirigi blocking the main arteries in town, nearly a mile away from where the protest was officially held. For no reason other than to be seen to be the hard men, and to garner publicity for themselves alone.
> 
> ...


 
What in gods holy are you on about now?

I responded to your posts and did not evade them in any way.

I dont need any politician to tell me what to do and I dont even know who Eirigi even are???

I also think (judging by your posts) you would like to gardai to actually crack skulls open so that you could go off on one even more about the protestors.Because for you to say that the riot police should be cracking skulls of those peacefull protestors is a shocking statement to make.
I was in town at 5pm yesterday and saw the gardai with male and female protestors at O,Connell Street chatting to each other in a nice,peacefull friendly manner.





Im a normal hard working person like my wife who have had enough of austerity and having money taken from us in all forms now.

The select rich get richer and the working class and poor are picked on and made poorer.
Im sick of all the waffle from Enda and Joan that my wife and myself will see more money in our pockets and that the "economy" is back in business.Its not for alot of people in this country.


People seem to forget that in 2016 the property tax caps will be lifted and property tax will shoot through the roof.
Then wait till 2019 when the water charge caps are lifted and you get hit with the "real water charges" and lets see how many people are put on the poverty line then.

Enda and Joan wont be "listening" then,because both of them will be long gone sitting back on nice fat pensions.


----------



## flowerman (11 Dec 2014)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> 30K, 100K whatever? I think all sides can agree that more than 4 million people did *not* answer the call for a monster rally.
> 
> Anybody else get physically sick at the sight of Grisly trying to get in on the act? This was the guy who (uncharacteristically) said he would keep the law and pay his water charges. I actually hope the likes of Murphy, Daly, Pottinger et al continue to erode the hitherto SF monopoly on nihilistic protest.


 

Im sick of the lot of them to be honest with you.Im sick off all the party TDs.
I personally have had a gutt full of all their carry on in the dail where they are supposed to do things for the people,as we are supposed to be their bosses,yet all the lot of them do in there is slagg each other off and throw accusations around.They they have a nice drink and chat with each other in the dail bar at our expense.

Phil Hogan screws up IW and what happens to him?
He gets sent off over to the EU to get an even bigger salary,even more expenses claims and a nice fat pension.
The week before he leaves for the EU,he appoints a load of ex counciler friends of his to various company boards and gets them all nice cushy jobs too.Yet again its "jobs for the boys"

If my wife or myself screwed up in our jobs we would be severely demoted or more than likely let go completely.


----------



## Delboy (11 Dec 2014)

flowerman said:


> What in gods holy are you on about now?
> 
> I responded to your posts and did not evade them in any way.
> 
> ...



You can't seem to follow basic replies, understand the timelines of the day or even understand who some of the dangerous groupings that were marching with you yesterday are (Eirigi aren't exactly a secret organisation)!
You don't seem to grasp that deliberately blocking the traffic routes yesterday was just an act of spite on the part of some protesters. That is exactly what they did by sitting on the Luas line and the bridge. You just keep going back to clappy handy love-is-in-the-air Woodstock type talk of peaceful protesters and smiling Gardai, while repeating that you are a hard working man (which I am too but was'nt able to get home as normal because of illegal activity by a bunch of thugs who were allowed get away with it by a benign police force) 

It appears that though you were around there at the time, you didn't grasp what was happening. 

Peace man!


----------



## Purple (11 Dec 2014)

flowerman said:


> The select rich get richer and the working class and poor are picked on and made poorer.



On what basis do you make that assertion?


----------



## Duke of Marmalade (11 Dec 2014)

flowerman said:


> ...yet all the lot of them do in there is slagg each other off and throw accusations around...


Couldn't agree more  I have had occasion to watch since it went permanently on UPC 207.  Sometimes I have to pinch myself?  Is this really what our democracy needs?  And yet systems of no accountability are surely worse.  But you would have to believe that the democracy of a 1,000 years hence would be unrecognisable from the one we have now - at least Irish style.


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## Firefly (11 Dec 2014)

Based on what I've seen on the TV, the crowd seemed to be mostly made up of pensioners and the unemployed - both of whom have been relatively untouched in the last 8 years!! 

I'm 100% with Purple on this one...the nutjobs have joined the parade and anyone with a modicum of sense is satisfied with the reductions and has moved on.


----------



## Firefly (11 Dec 2014)

Purple said:


> I’m working class as well; I derive my income from my days work.



I always find it amusing that those who call themselves "working class" don't work and all those who call themselves "middle class" are actually "working class" in reality  

To to be clear though, I'm really middle class as I've gone to university


----------



## Purple (11 Dec 2014)

I preferred the old payments system. It was fairer as it was based on consumption, though the allowances were too low. The new charge won't help to reduce usage.


----------



## Sunny (11 Dec 2014)

Firefly said:


> Based on what I've seen on the TV, the crowd seemed to be mostly made up of pensioners and the unemployed - both of whom have been relatively untouched in the last 8 years!!
> 
> I'm 100% with Purple on this one...the nutjobs have joined the parade and anyone with a modicum of sense is satisfied with the reductions and has moved on.


 
What do unemployed people look like?

And by the way, I lost my job during the recession but was lucky enough to find a new one. My new job is at a pay rate of 22% less than what I was on. Bet that is more of a pay cut than you suffered in recent years. I find your comment about been relatively untouched for the past eight years offensive. It was extremely stressful for myself and my family.


----------



## Purple (11 Dec 2014)

Firefly said:


> To to be clear though, I'm really middle class as I've gone to university



I'm a tradesman (tradesperson now?) so when Paul and Ruth and the rest of the Loony Left succeed in starting the revolution you'll be rounded up but I'll be fine


----------



## michaelm (11 Dec 2014)

DB74 said:


> Good to see some sort of logical method used though rather than the usual bluster and "pick a figure out of the sky" effort that normally accompanies these things


The exact figure doesn't matter anyway but I wouldn't put much store in the App.  It's just a snapshot (at what time though?) and tweaking various parameters would show sizable variations.  Lots of people were leaving after 2pm whilst others were arriving.


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## TarfHead (11 Dec 2014)

Clare Daly's contribution to the protest, as shown on RTE News last night, included an assertion the politicians in Leinster House were "_whimpering and cowering_". 

*Mark Twain* "_It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt._"


----------



## Purple (11 Dec 2014)

TarfHead said:


> Clare Daly's contribution to the protest, as shown on RTE News last night, included an assertion the politicians in Leinster House were "_whimpering and cowering_".
> 
> *Mark Twain* "_It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt._"



Clare Daly is a smart lady and is very articulate (as you would expect considering her rarefied upbringing and qualifications). The trouble is that she's a convert to a bankrupt ideology and zealots rarely allow reality into their thinking.


----------



## Purple (11 Dec 2014)

Sunny said:


> What do unemployed people look like?
> 
> And by the way, I lost my job during the recession but was lucky enough to find a new one. My new job is at a pay rate of 22% less than what I was on. Bet that is more of a pay cut than you suffered in recent years. I find your comment about been relatively untouched for the past eight years offensive. It was extremely stressful for myself and my family.



Working people who lose their jobs but look for new ones are still working class. 
The substantial minority who have never worked and have no intension of ever working are not working class. This, I presume, is the group to whom Firefly was referring.


----------



## so-crates (11 Dec 2014)

Aside from the obvious untruth of what Clare Daly said (Alan Kelly looked  remarkably prosaic about the whole shebang), that whimpering and  cowering remark was deeply unpleasant, particularly given Primetime on  Tuesday showing people actually "whimpering and cowering". If someone is  whimpering and cowering and you have caused it then that is a sign that  your behaviour has moved beyond any reasonable bounds. It is more shame  on you than shame on them.

As for the astounding claims that the  protest is "true democracy" or the equally ridiculous claim that the  people have spoken and they have said no. It can only be considered  "true democracy" if all sides are aired, unless you are a fan of  "democracy" North Korean style of course. You can be very sure that no anti-anti-Irish Water speakers were  invited. You can be very sure that if they were they would have been  heckled (at the very least). You can be very sure that if someone chose  to turn up with a "Yes Water Charges" banner they too would have found  themselves on the receiving end of some less than democratic behaviour.  The people have spoken - they got that much right, more have registered  than not. The protest, whether you take a sensible, reasoned guesstimate  or go with the egregious figure peddled by the organisers or even split  the difference, does not constitute a majority and does not represent  "the people". I agree with Purple, I am not a fan of the low, flat  charge, I think that metred usage was the sensible and logical way to go  but that doesn't mean that I think we should not progress and get this  thing finally in place. The sooner the better.

And then to cap it  all they had so screwed up the city centre that it took many hours for  Dublin Bus in particular to recover and get the buses back on track -  not pleasant when you have to get across the city having spent the day in work.

Maybe they should organise the next protest for Croke Park, that way at least you could count people through the turnstiles


----------



## Firefly (11 Dec 2014)

Purple said:


> Working people who lose their jobs but look for new ones are still working class.
> The substantial minority who have never worked and have no intension of ever working are not working class. This, I presume, is the group to whom Firefly was referring.



Spot on.

Difficult to identify them all with 100% accuracy, but intuition helps.


----------



## Firefly (11 Dec 2014)

Sunny said:


> What do unemployed people look like?
> 
> And by the way, I lost my job during the recession but was lucky enough to find a new one. My new job is at a pay rate of 22% less than what I was on. Bet that is more of a pay cut than you suffered in recent years. I find your comment about been relatively untouched for the past eight years offensive. It was extremely stressful for myself and my family.



Hi Sunny,

Anyone who works and wants to work and who loses their job, I have huge respect for and didn't mean in the slightest to offend. My father lost a business when we were teens and it was really awful. It put a huge strain on us at the time and I've no doubt it has shaped me into the person I am now (for better or worse!)

I have a problem with the free loaders who have never worked and have no desire to.

Firefly.


----------



## TarfHead (11 Dec 2014)

Purple said:


> Clare Daly is a smart lady ..



Doesn't seem to have figured out that when you have a PA system providing amplification, you don't need to shout into the microphone to be heard .


----------



## so-crates (11 Dec 2014)

TarfHead said:


> Doesn't seem to have figured out that when you have a PA system providing amplification, you don't need to shout into the microphone to be heard .


 - I was wondering about that one too. I assumed she is either used to shouting or couldn't get the mike working (in which case, why bother speaking into it)


----------



## The_Banker (11 Dec 2014)

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/pol...ut-awarding-of-water-meter-contract-1.2033498

Whatever about paying for water I'd like to see some clarity around how the water meter contract was awarded.


----------



## Delboy (11 Dec 2014)

the_banker said:


> https://www.irishtimes.com/news/pol...ut-awarding-of-water-meter-contract-1.2033498
> 
> whatever about paying for water i'd like to see some clarity around how the water meter contract was awarded.



+1


----------



## Deiseblue (11 Dec 2014)

Firefly said:


> Based on what I've seen on the TV, the crowd seemed to be mostly made up of pensioners and the unemployed - both of whom have been relatively untouched in the last 8 years!!
> 
> I'm 100% with Purple on this one...the nutjobs have joined the parade and anyone with a modicum of sense is satisfied with the reductions and has moved on.



God , what a brilliant gift , not so much that you can spot pensioners but to sit in front of a TV set & to be able to spot the unemployed but uncannily you can tell that they are long term unemployed as well.

How do you do it , does the TV emit an aura of some sort or do they look like the kind of people that should be unemployed ?


Any chance of this weekend's lotto numbers ?


----------



## Purple (11 Dec 2014)

Deiseblue said:


> God , what a brilliant gift , not so much that you can spot pensioners but to sit in front of a TV set & to be able to spot the unemployed but uncannily you can tell that they are long term unemployed as well.
> 
> How do you do it , does the TV emit an aura of some sort or do they look like the kind of people that should be unemployed ?



It's one a dem new smart TV's


----------



## Purple (11 Dec 2014)

The_Banker said:


> https://www.irishtimes.com/news/pol...ut-awarding-of-water-meter-contract-1.2033498
> 
> Whatever about paying for water I'd like to see some clarity around how the water meter contract was awarded.


That's alarming and deserves its own thread.


----------



## Firefly (11 Dec 2014)

Deiseblue said:


> God , what a brilliant gift , not so much that you can spot pensioners but to sit in front of a TV set & to be able to spot the unemployed but uncannily you can tell that they are long term unemployed as well.
> 
> How do you do it , does the TV emit an aura of some sort or do they look like the kind of people that should be unemployed ?



Post #114 



Deiseblue said:


> Any chance of this weekend's lotto numbers ?



Sure what would you need the money for, aren't you one of the lucky ones


----------



## Deiseblue (11 Dec 2014)

Firefly said:


> Post #114
> 
> 
> 
> Sure what would you need the money for, aren't you one of the lucky ones



That certainly explains that you felt that the long term unemployed were hugely well  represented in the march , it doesn't explain how you reached this conclusion from the snap shots on TV - you can't kid us , you are blessed with second sight !

Thanks to the blessings of working in a hugely unionised workforce Until unfeasibly early retirement I certainly am one of the lucky ones !


----------



## Betsy Og (11 Dec 2014)

so-crates said:


> Aside from the obvious untruth of what Clare Daly said (Alan Kelly looked  remarkably prosaic about the whole shebang), that whimpering and  cowering remark was deeply unpleasant, particularly given Primetime on  Tuesday showing people actually "whimpering and cowering". If someone is  whimpering and cowering and you have caused it then that is a sign that  your behaviour has moved beyond any reasonable bounds. It is more shame  on you than shame on them.
> 
> As for the astounding claims that the  protest is "true democracy" or the equally ridiculous claim that the  people have spoken and they have said no. It can only be considered  "true democracy" if all sides are aired, unless you are a fan of  "democracy" North Korean style of course. You can be very sure that no anti-anti-Irish Water speakers were  invited. You can be very sure that if they were they would have been  heckled (at the very least). You can be very sure that if someone chose  to turn up with a "Yes Water Charges" banner they too would have found  themselves on the receiving end of some less than democratic behaviour.  The people have spoken - they got that much right, more have registered  than not. The protest, whether you take a sensible, reasoned guesstimate  or go with the egregious figure peddled by the organisers or even split  the difference, does not constitute a majority and does not represent  "the people". I agree with Purple, I am not a fan of the low, flat  charge, I think that metred usage was the sensible and logical way to go  but that doesn't mean that I think we should not progress and get this  thing finally in place. The sooner the better.
> 
> ...



Big +1 to that. For all the hyperbole spouted I seriously doubt there will be any further concessions - whatever about Labour but I cant see that FG would bother trying to convert any of the protester types in FG voters - they remainder are so far out there there's no point in trying to reason with them. 

Like that line "Dont argue with a fool, they'll only drag you down to their level and beat you with experience". No offence intended, that's just the quote - but in line with other posters I do have a problem with the senseless traffic blockers and am not sure why we are humouring them (dont want to make martyrs out of them either - could we just drench them and let them shiver there??).


----------



## cork (11 Dec 2014)

I have reservations on the setting up of Irish water but the whole camapign has been hijacked by the fringe left.

I think we need to look at stuff like the water regulator and water infrastucture.

But it has tuned into a cheap political football.


----------



## Firefly (11 Dec 2014)

Deiseblue said:


> That certainly explains that you felt that the long term unemployed were hugely well  represented in the march , it doesn't explain how you reached this conclusion from the snap shots on TV - you can't kid us , you are blessed with second sight !



Gee, thanks!


----------



## flowerman (11 Dec 2014)

Delboy said:


> You can't seem to follow basic replies, understand the timelines of the day or even understand who some of the dangerous groupings that were marching with you yesterday are (Eirigi aren't exactly a secret organisation)!
> You don't seem to grasp that deliberately blocking the traffic routes yesterday was just an act of spite on the part of some protesters. That is exactly what they did by sitting on the Luas line and the bridge. You just keep going back to clappy handy love-is-in-the-air Woodstock type talk of peaceful protesters and smiling Gardai, while repeating that you are a hard working man (which I am too but was'nt able to get home as normal because of illegal activity by a bunch of thugs who were allowed get away with it by a benign police force)
> 
> It appears that though you were around there at the time, you didn't grasp what was happening.
> ...


 
Why resort to a belittling post like this and making false accusations against me?

If you would care to re-read my posts,I said I was in town on business.I walked along O,Connell Street at 5pm yesterday after having a meeting in town.I watched peacefull protestors protesting and having a bit of banter and friendly conversation with several gardai,as I was walking past.
I was not marching with the protestors or any protestors in any part of Dublin City Centre so please kindly withdraw that accusation.

I also do not know who Eirigi are or is.
The 1st time I heard of them or whoever they are was when you posted that name in your post on the previous page.
So again I will ask you not to make up things to say about me,so please stop it.

Your posts are becomming more and more of a mocking and belittling type and I dont like how you are posting in this manner.

Also is it right for you to call people thugs when you do not know any of those people who were both male and female protestors.


----------



## flowerman (11 Dec 2014)

The_Banker said:


> https://www.irishtimes.com/news/pol...ut-awarding-of-water-meter-contract-1.2033498
> 
> Whatever about paying for water I'd like to see some clarity around how the water meter contract was awarded.


 
Some things will never change,even though change was prommised.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/a...-more-trouble-for-the-taoiseach-26838745.html

http://www.irishexaminer.com/irelan...buying-siteserv-very-questionable-290751.html



So does Dennis O'Brien who owns Siteserv have good friends in Fine Gael?
Honest question.


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## Marion (11 Dec 2014)

Let's all reflect for a moment.

LOS is not a forum to attack a person.

Attack an opinion by all means  - as per posting guidelines.

It's tough down here in LOS. You have to be brave to post here.

But please remember the posting guideline as mentioned in this post. 

Attack the opinion - not the poster. 

Regards

Marion


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## Purple (12 Dec 2014)

Deiseblue said:


> Thanks to the blessings of working in a hugely unionised workforce Until unfeasibly early retirement I certainly am one of the lucky ones !



That scenario is one of the reasons there are so many unemployed!


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## ajapale (12 Dec 2014)

Purple said:


> I preferred the old payments system. It was fairer as it was based on consumption, though the allowances were too low. The new charge won't help to reduce usage.


This reflects my view entirely. When the county councils introduced meters and water charges for business and rural dwellers (farmers and their neighbours) nearly 10 years ago there was an immediate and dramatic drop in consumption. Much is spoken about public side leaks but there are very substantial private side losses as well. I considered protesting the impostion of flat charges!


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## Betsy Og (12 Dec 2014)

ajapale said:


> This reflects my view entirely. When the county councils introduced meters and water charges for business and rural dwellers (farmers and their neighbours) nearly 10 years ago there was an immediate and dramatic drop in consumption. Much is spoken about public side leaks but there are very substantial private side losses as well. I considered protesting the impostion of flat charges!



100% agree. It was such a PR disaster though I think they threw the kitchen sink at it.

I thought though that if you still used less than the flat charge, you'd pay less - that isnt quite the same as metering though because once you're over the limit it doesnt matter beyond that - which is where the waste comes into it.


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## Firefly (13 Dec 2014)

Betsy Og said:


> 100% agree. It was such a PR disaster though I think they threw the kitchen sink at it.
> 
> I thought though that if you still used less than the flat charge, you'd pay less - that isnt quite the same as metering though because once you're over the limit it doesnt matter beyond that - which is where the waste comes into it.



It's probably the one charge / tax that should have been charged as designed, on a usage basis, but sadly it was for many, the straw that broke the camel's back. Now it will probably be under funded for years when other areas of public spending are relatively flush with money, pardon the pun.


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## flowerman (1 Feb 2015)

We were there yesterday at the Dublin City protest,a good turnout organized on facebook and social media and a nice peacefull protest too.Everyone we met and chatted to was in a good humor and it was allmost like a carnival atmosphere with all the other families we walked along side and chatted with.
Next protest will be in March.


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## Purple (2 Feb 2015)

flowerman said:


> We were there yesterday at the Dublin City protest,a good turnout organized on facebook and social media and a nice peacefull protest too.Everyone we met and chatted to was in a good humor and it was allmost like a carnival atmosphere with all the other families we walked along side and chatted with.
> Next protest will be in March.


Just out of interest, what alternative proposal is being put forward by the anti-water charges groups?
Even the Shinners are saying that a single utility is the way to go. Mary Loo was on Moaning Ireland on the Public Sector Broadcaster this morning and said that it could be funded through business rates. She was evasive as ever when asked if she was in favour of increasing rates. She seems to think the money can be magiced up from the same place they will fund the rest of their policies. I don’t know why I’m still surprised when anyone from the Loony Left can’t get past the second question on their economic policies.


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## Ceist Beag (2 Feb 2015)

It was real quality from Mary Lou this morning alright. 

Yes we want a single utility to manage water. 
Yes we realise this means the state can only fund up to 50% and the other 50% has to be sourced
No we don't want the public billed to fund the other 50%.
No we don't want existing commercial rates increased to fund it either.
No I can't explain where the remaining funding will come from, however I'll throw in a few vague terms such as "we'll put in place some formula". 
Her last few comments were telling - basically it sounded like she was saying that if funding could not be found then the service would suffer and "we would have to cut our cloth to measure", nice one Mary Lou, good to know where you stand on it now!


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## Firefly (2 Feb 2015)

Purple said:


> I don’t know why I’m still surprised when anyone from the Loony Left can’t get past the second question on their economic policies.



That's it for me. People on the Left, IMO, generally have good intentions. They advocate equality, helping the poor and such. Quite laudable. However what happens when asked how it would be funded? 


Tumbleweed.


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## flowerman (2 Feb 2015)

Id like to clarify that Im not a SF member or even a SF loyal follower.I actually voted FG into power at the last election based on alot of promises that are now just endless lies.
Im a member of the TEEU and thats it.I have to be a member due to the nature of my work and career.
Im a working class person,as is my wife.
The main reason we marched in protest was the fact that neither myself or my wife have any more money to give at this stage.When the property tax rate cap is lifted in a few years time,and when the real cost the property tax and cost of water charges are seen in 2017 and 2018,then both myself and my wife will quite possibly be on the bread line,unless things change for the better very quickly.

Im not going to be lulled into this trap of handing over all my details for a 100 euro allowance.
I also protested on Saturday because I want a better future for my daughter and my grand-kids in the years to come.I dont want them to be in a world of endless government bills and pay huge tax after huge tax after huge tax and have no money for themselves to enjoy their lives with.

Several of the young and middle aged familes that we chatted to are of the same thinking and thought,as to why they marched and protested on Saturday.
All of us had just had enough at this stage.I know that myself and my wife have had enough and we have no more to give.

Thats the gods honest truth Mr Kenny and Miss Burton,if you really are listening.


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## Purple (4 Feb 2015)

flowerman said:


> Id like to clarify that Im not a SF member or even a SF loyal follower.I actually voted FG into power at the last election based on alot of promises that are now just endless lies.
> Im a member of the TEEU and thats it.I have to be a member due to the nature of my work and career.
> Im a working class person,as is my wife.
> The main reason we marched in protest was the fact that neither myself or my wife have any more money to give at this stage.When the property tax rate cap is lifted in a few years time,and when the real cost the property tax and cost of water charges are seen in 2017 and 2018,then both myself and my wife will quite possibly be on the bread line,unless things change for the better very quickly.
> ...



Hi Flowerman, can I ask why people aren't marching to have the 2000 excess and unnecessary staff in Irish Water who cost us €92,000,000 a year laid off? 
Why not also march to have the other tens of thousands of superfluous people employed by the state laid off? That would save hundreds of millions a year and save us all a multiple of the cost of the water tax, even after we employed some of those numbers in areas that need them.


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## flowerman (4 Feb 2015)

Purple said:


> Hi Flowerman, can I ask why people aren't marching to have the 2000 excess and unnecessary staff in Irish Water who cost us €92,000,000 a year laid off?
> Why not also march to have the other tens of thousands of superfluous people employed by the state laid off? That would save hundreds of millions a year and save us all a multiple of the cost of the water tax, even after we employed some of those numbers in areas that need them.



Why dont you go to the next march/protest and ask them yoursleves.

I posted why we protested and I merely posted the reasons for a couple of families who walked along with us in our part of the protest march said to us.We and the other 3 families we chatted with had the same thoughts and feelings on the matter.


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## Purple (5 Feb 2015)

flowerman said:


> Why dont you go to the next march/protest and ask them yoursleves.


I'm asking you as one of the marchers.
You are angry about the wrong things.


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