# Timber frame versus Block



## Massey (17 Jul 2006)

What are people's thoughts or experience on these? Currently live in a timber frame - very warm, but walls are paper thin so noise between rooms is poor and hanging heavy objects is a challenge. Parents have block house - cold, but very solid. I'm interested in building in the country, so interested how timber frame would be there, as opposed to an estate in Dublin.


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## Betsy Og (17 Jul 2006)

In Timber frame in the country. Working well. There is a bit of sound transfer but as no neighbours its not such an issue at the moment. 

I suppose if you're going to have teenagers playing music or people studying then a bit of consideration will need to be shown.

Also, rockwool in the partitions is supposed to be good, I think we have some but it was one of those rare cases where building work too fast didnt allow for ultra careful mointoring to ensure rockwool got everywhere we intended.

Nice & warm so cant ask for more really. However, cost is an issue I think, so if I was building to sell I'd say I'd go block. 

If could get own crew to erect the frame it would be great, subbie crews from the timber framers seem to be very hit & miss.


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## Lorz (18 Jul 2006)

We will def. be running with timber frame if we ever get planning!  One co. we looked into were Cygnum based in Cork - they offer a silent home package which is based on the only problem that I see with TF - ie poor sound proofing.  Their website is very informative and is worth checking out...

[broken link removed]


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## lastbuilders (18 Jul 2006)

I am currently doing a timber frame self build in the north east and put wood fibre sound insulation between rooms and floors to reduce sound transfer. 

Lastbuilders


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## Massey (18 Jul 2006)

Interesting feedback. How do you find hanging havy objects on the walls?


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## Betsy Og (18 Jul 2006)

Massey said:
			
		

> Interesting feedback. How do you find hanging havy objects on the walls?


 
Make sure you're driving into a timber lath in the stud partition, check where the skirting is nailed. Otherwise I think they are at 400mm centres (from centre to centre) between the laths.

Anyone find those "wire finder" type scanners utterly useless. I bought a Stanley one but I dont think it tells me anything reliable at all.


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## kasko (19 Jul 2006)

Hiya,

there's no comparison between timber and concrete.
From financial point, timber is much cheaper, but if you want quality and have the money, then go for concrete.

You can erect a timber frame house in a maximum of two weeks. Wood is a better heat insulator than concrete, therefore energy-efficient. But when it comes to sound....  

However, concrete is the most proven building material on earth, it's certainly stronger and more durable than wood.  If your home is constructed with concrete walls, you are protected from the structural damage, say fire for example. Yes, after a few years or even months timber frame houses make noise, there's rot, rust, termites etc...Today's best residential buildings in the world are made of concrete. I do not know why timber frame is so popular in Ireland today, look at the rest of the world: Italy, Germany, Austria etc...all concrete.

And after all, when it comes to soundproof; no matter what and how much material you put with the timber, it's never going to be as good as concrete.


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## nutty nut (19 Jul 2006)

I agree with kasko


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## chrisoz5 (20 Jul 2006)

Hi, we almost finished building a concrete house and considered going timber frame, all of the qoutes we got (without bargaining) were going to cost more than concrete block, I think it was around 25% more and the sound proofing would have been a big problem even though its inthe country, we considered that we have kids etc or should I say a kid! Also we would had to arrange a crane and all that craic ourselves


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## ACA (20 Jul 2006)

orignally posted by *chrisoz5*


> all of the quotes we got (without bargaining) were going to cost more than concrete block, I think it was around 25% more and the sound proofing would have been a big problem even though its in the country,



Don't know where you got your prices from! We had built a timber frame house 2 years ago - 4 bed, 1500 sq ft for 88K. House now worth in excess of 300k inc site 
Timber frame is quicker, cheaper, next to no cracks - inside or out, very warm. One sound-proofing problem - shower in the en-suite, got around it by using sound- proofing plaster board and tiled straight over the top. I'm sure any builder would include this in all rooms if you asked.
Lived in concrete homes for years - wouldn't do it again.


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## kasko (20 Jul 2006)

When I say a concrete house, I also imply concrete stairs and concrete ceiling. You can have an elephant jumping upstairs and you wouldn't hear a thing downstairs. 
In a timber framed house, come on, yous all know, that you can hear everything going on upstairs starting with the footsteps, you can hear every one of them. Never mind running down the stairs.

I'd say the concrete house would be even twice as expensive


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## Betsy Og (20 Jul 2006)

an awful lot of alarmist tosh there to be honest,

rot??, termites?? giza break. Unless you've forgotten to roof it and have imported termites I dont think these are real issues. The timbers used are all treated.

If a house is gutted by fire then the house is finito, be it concrete, steel frame, timberframe, glass etc. For one off houses I'd say job #1 is to order the bulldozer.

Re internationally, timberframe could well be bigger than concrete, most of US housing is timberframe - also apparently big in Scotland & Scandanavia.

Re sound transfer - fair enough this is a bit of a drawback but one to be balanced with heat & energy efficiency. & if it bothers people that much theres rockwool for the partitions and "silent floor" type systems to block upstairs sound. Not a big deal in a detatched house.


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## alri (20 Jul 2006)

I have been looking at timber frame V block and block is definetly coming out cheaper.I have finally decided on block ,mainly for noise reasons,four kids,but have concerns re maximising insulation.Has anyone had experiences with Poroton bricks,was it easy to get a bricky to use them?what was the cost V traditional method.?
Also it is a dormer bunglow so what is the best insulation for the roof space?


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## Leo (20 Jul 2006)

Hi Alri, there is a Key Post on Poroton blocks. If you do a search of this forum you will also find other references to them.
Leo


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## Lorz (20 Jul 2006)

Compared to traditional block built, timber frame homes are engineered to the highest level of accuracy and quality (built in a controlled factory env and so no need to worry about walls that aren't straight - big problem when tiling).  No need to wait for "drying out" - means your tradespeople can start immediately.  They also meet and often exceed current building regulations and certainly meet and exceed all current building regulations with regard to fire also.  They are ~50% more energy efficient than traditional block built which is extremely important given the new regs on building energy.  With ever increasing heating costs and oil prices, this rating IMO is going to become one of the deciding factors when purchasing a new home in the very near future.

Sound proofing may have been an issue at the beginning or currently with less professional co's but the co's that KNOW what they are doing have lots of options to improve sound proofing.  One of the cinemas in Cork is timber frame - a building where I'm sure you'll agree sound proofing is essential!

As for the rest of Europe building block built - ~ 70% of the population in the developed world live in timber frame homes.  In North America and Scandinavia it accounts for almost 90% of the market. In Scotland - 60%.


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## kiwijbob (20 Jul 2006)

having being involved in numerous timber frame projects I find there is a 
huge difference in quality between erectors, some of them are dismally 
poor as they have little experience seeing that the explosion in timber 
frame is a recent phenomena.  If you are in any question as to the 
quality of the work ask a professional architect/engineer *
WITH EXPERIENCE IN TIMBER FRAME *builds to inspect the works *
DURNING ERECTIO*N.


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## Salmon (20 Jul 2006)

Kasko,
Did you say that you have a concrete stairs installed in your house? I was thinking of this but wasnt sure how to make a concrete stairs look well!! Did you find it cheaper than the wood stairs?


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## Massey (20 Jul 2006)

Great to have opinions from both sides here. I'm still not convinced on the timber framing myself, and that is based on living in one at the moment - noise is terrible, run into serious problems evening putting up a shelf ( someone mentioned above making sure you were attaching to the lath directly, but this in not practical all the time - you may want a picture, shelf, TV, etc in a particular place, which is betwwen a lath). Great thing about the house is the heat, but that's really it. I'm still leaning towards block, but would love to see an actual timber frame house, out in the country, to get a real feel for it. My experience is block house are much colder and more difficult to heat, but I'm sure there have been advances in recent years to combat this.


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## Kiddo (20 Jul 2006)

We live in a timber frame semi and there is no noise audible from next door...the odd time we hear their toddler having a tantrum but you'd hear that in a block build too. My parents live in a block built semi and can hear next door flushing the toilet at nighttime. And I rented for a while in a block built house where we could hear next door pulling the plugs out, kettle boiling and doors opening/closing.

I think the whole noise problem is down to proper insulation and build quality regardless of whether its timber or block.

As for noise from upstairs...same as in a block built and if someone is thundering up or down the stairs they are going to make noise..regardless of build.

And as for not being able to hang presses...well 3 years later our kitchen presses are still on the wall, as are pictures, mirrors and bathroom fittings we have hung.


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## kasko (20 Jul 2006)

Well, concrete stairs as well as the concrete ceiling is a lot more expensive. That's why I said "if you have the money". Once you have the concrete stairs, you can put down parqet, and it will look better. There is no noise whatsoever, no one can convince me that the wooden stairs and timber ceiling can achieve that. 

What is the source of information that 70 % of developed world live in timber framed homes? I know that's correct regarding US, however when hurricane strikes all those homes get easily blown away. Shaking sends them sliding to one side because the connection to the foundation is a weak point that gives way. 

Are Italy, Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Central Europe part of undeveloped world?

I agree that cinema in Cork might be timber framed and insulation used is spot on, I agree that noise can be reduced that way, but there's no way that timber can reduce noise you can hear downstairs while someone is walking upstairs!


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## Kiddo (21 Jul 2006)

kasko said:
			
		

> What is the source of information that 70 % of developed world live in timber framed homes? I know that's correct regarding US, however when hurricane strikes all those homes get easily blown away. Shaking sends them sliding to one side because the connection to the foundation is a weak point that gives way.


 
But most of the houses blown away by hurricanes are fully wooden structures not just wooden frame with block & render outer core...



> but there's no way that timber can reduce noise you can hear downstairs while someone is walking upstairs!


 
In most cases this is the same for timber frame or block build...both have timber floorboards..so same noise.. I've never been in a house where the upper floors were concrete.


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## kasko (21 Jul 2006)

Well, if you read my reply earlier on this topic, you'd see that I mentioned  concrete ceiling (or upper floor if you like). 
That's why it is a lot more expensive because obviously you'd need slabs, mesh and so on...And you can have an elephant jumping upstairs


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## Massey (21 Jul 2006)

I believe you can use a ligtweight concrete as your floor upstairs in a timber frame house - thus cutting out the noise? Anyone have experience of doing this?


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## ellamac (21 Jul 2006)

Hi after alot of research, I mean agonising months of it, we are going to  build a timber frame house. There are a number of reasons 1. speed 2. cost (all quotes were cheaper than block built) 3. heating 4. our financial advisor encouraged it for re-sale value and that in a few years all houses have to be 'energy' efficient, which timber frame are, brick is not and alot of other reasons as well.  

I've lived in block built all my life until we rented a timber frame house last year and the difference in heating bills and noise was unbelievable.  In all the other houses we rented - noise from the neighbours was an issue but not in the semi-d timber frame.  A friend of mine suggested acoustic insulation but double it for more noise reduction and even sheeps wool would make all the difference.  Also our solicitor who lived in Canada for 15 years is building his house at the present - timber frame! He said he would live in nothing else!  

I think a few years ago, timber frame was considered shoddy but then we weren't that experienced in it but now there are a huge amount of companies doing it - I submitted our plans to approximately 11 timber frame companies for quotes, compared to 5 recommended builders! 

In relation to timber houses rotting and being invested by all sorts of wierd and wonderful creatures and falling down around our feet.......some of the oldest buildings in the world are timber frame - have you ever seen where Shakespeare was born?!!


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## kasko (21 Jul 2006)

Shakespeare was born in 1564. Do you think reinforced steel bars etc even existed back then?

What about air raid shelters? If timber is as solid and durable as steel and concrete I am sure it'd be a lot cheaper to timber-frame them


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## Leo (21 Jul 2006)

Kasko, I belive ellamac's point re Shakespear is that the house is still standing and in good repair, not that they chose to go timber frame over any other method.

Bringing air raid shelters into this is going way off topic and adds nothing to the thread. Are you suggesting concrete homes adhere to the same standards as a shelter designed to withstand a direct hit?

Could you confirm if you have any interest in the industry?
Leo


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## kasko (21 Jul 2006)

I know what he meant, i only suggested that back then people couldn't have chosen anything but timber. 
I used air raid shelters only to make an extreme comparison between the two. Just the other extreme as opposed to Shakespeare's house


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## HeadTheWall (21 Jul 2006)

kasko said:
			
		

> I know what he meant, i only suggested that back then people couldn't have chosen anything but timber.


 
Must have been no stone around then. Eh Kasko


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## bambino (21 Jul 2006)

I live n a concret home at the mo' and can hear my neighbours sneeze.


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## kasko (21 Jul 2006)

There was but not for the ordinary people's homes


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## Lorz (24 Jul 2006)

The 70% I refer to includes US, Canada, Scandinavia, Europe, Australia and Japan.  As for hurricanes - thankfully Ireland doesn't have to worry about them and as alread pointed out the houses in the US are also clad in timber where as the majority of TF houses in Ireland are clad in brick or other material.

I cannot help thinking that you are working in the industry - perhaps Irish Concrete Federation?


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## kasko (24 Jul 2006)

Ah, no... If you read my earlier replies you'll see that I'm talking about concrete upper floor,as well as concrete stairs. The way apartments are built....


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## Lorz (25 Jul 2006)

Do you know of many 





			
				kasko said:
			
		

> ordinary people's homes


 that are built with concrete stairs and concrete upper floors?  I only know of 1 person who has done this.  IMO it's a bit excessive and unnecessary.  As you've stated this is primarly used in apartment blocks and commercial units.


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## kasko (25 Jul 2006)

I do know, but not in Ireland..And it's a hell of the difference.
That's why I said if you had the money, build it that way.

Why don't they use the timber floors in apartment blocks?


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## Eve1 (26 Jul 2006)

We have a tf house built and we are putting in a concrete floor upstairs. I know of a few who have it done and it is mostly for ufh. The house has to be designed to hold the extra weight, which costs slightly more.

Housing estate tf houses have more noise transfer becuase alot of them tend not to have insulated internal walls
Eve


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## kasko (9 Aug 2006)

Even by properly insulating internal walls, you are only reducing airborne noise. The real problem is impact noise (carried by structure) and there's very little or nothing that could be done to improve that once the floors are made with timber


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## Sparki74 (6 Dec 2006)

Hi there, we are down to decision making time, timber frame or block. TF is a little cheaper than block. Even though the company who quoted us for the timber frame is of very high standard, my consideration is fire. We also live on a high site with no shelter (ok, we plan to set trees next year). We are due to start building in Jan. Any suggestions regarding fire, and a very windy exposed site - with regards to building a timber frame house. And one other thing, I read that it's a good idea to put in insulation in the internal walls for cutting down on airbourne noise - would a block built house suffer from airbourne noise in the same way at each floor level, as I didn't think you would put insulation in the internal walls.

We are also planning to put in a useable attic for office use - how does this affect insultation? Is the walls of a timber frame house strong enough to withstand an attic that would be used? Thanks for any comments.


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## Meathman99 (6 Dec 2006)

kasko said:


> Why don't they use the timber floors in apartment blocks?



Timber floors are used in two and three floor apartment blocks.  In these units the acoustic performance of the "Party floor" (between two different units must comply with the building regulations.


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## Zutz (7 Dec 2006)

Currently building a detached timber framed house and to reduce sound transfer I am using rockwool insulation between all internal walls and a lights weight screed to the first floor level (also have UFH) which should go some way to reducing sound transfer. 
Timber framed house are much more energy efficent than block built house and with energy costs soaring combined with new energy ratings coming into effect next year, it is my opinion that this will have a major impact on resale value in years to come. With regard to cost of construction vs. blcok, it is my opinion that they are commparable!


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## Teabag (7 Dec 2006)

When is it too late to decide whether to build with brick/block or timberframe ? Would the type of house have to be put on the planning application ? How long does it take to receive the timberframe on site after initial order ?


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## yop (7 Dec 2006)

Teabag, we did not need to state what type of house we were constructing.
The same as Zutz we also insulated with rockwool and put light osb on walls which could be deemed as "generators", namely the dining room, sitting room, utility.
We also put fibre glass in the celiling spaces on ground floor.
Also put down 25mm of insulation on the OSB on 1st floor, then screed.
We have no issues with noise.

There was an 8 week waiting time for the kit.
I would think that price wise the TF and block would be the same.

Also with a TF you need a smaller heatpump as they are better at holding heat.


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## Meathman99 (7 Dec 2006)

Big benefit with timber frame is time.  Cost is roughly the same.  However in very little time you can have house weather tight allowing trades to start inside.


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## ollie30 (7 Dec 2006)

hi folks, i started a thread a while ago about best block construction? got many suggestions,currently live in a timber frame hse and find attaching things to the wall not so straight forward at times.since our planning is being held up have had plenty of time to think about which type of house to build,swaying towards the poroton block and maybe paroc insulation to future proof against regs. in years ahead ,however have been told by an x poster to this site about building 9inch cavity block using paroc to get u value of around .20 think the 240mm poroton/150mm paroc is around .15 u-value,to me you get the solid block construction ,hollow core floor/paroc block and beam floor,great u value,cut out thermal bridge and loop,thermal mass of the block.i am not connected in any way to the building trade but i think timber frame is great(as long as its constructed properly)but i also think the above way is also.my only fear of exterior insulation is if someone tips the wall with a car!!althoug i soaked some paroc in water and was very impressed it absorbed very little, its worth looking into before you decide


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## AJL (8 Dec 2006)

Did you consider a SIP panel house. I am about 3 months off finishing one. The walls are very solid with all external walls solid to hang anything off them Also some of the supporting internal walls have the SIP panels leaving only about 3 rooms with studded walls that still have the SIP panels on at least two sides of the rooms.
U value of 0.2 and quick to construct. Practically air tight. Gone with single leaf block external to protect the house.


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## sas (9 Dec 2006)

ollie30 said:


> = i soaked some paroc in water and was very impressed it absorbed very little, its worth looking into before you decide


 
Where did you get the paroc to play with? They don't supply through anyone in the ROI?


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## ollie30 (9 Dec 2006)

i did ask a trusted person who is well up in one of the largest tf house companys in ireland and he said yes the sip is very good but if you decide to change electrical points it can be tricky as it is pre fabricated in a sealed unit,and i prob would tend to alter knowing me!!i looked at a house in co. meath built with poroton/paroc,met the owners and they where kind enough to give me a sample of the paroc.they said they got a polish builder who imported all from poland and was doing the building also.seemed like a great method to me does anyone know of any down sides to it,except for the price ,fbt seemed pricey


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## sas (10 Dec 2006)

ollie30 said:


> i did ask a trusted person who is well up in one of the largest tf house companys in ireland and he said yes the sip is very good but if you decide to change electrical points it can be tricky as it is pre fabricated in a sealed unit,and i prob would tend to alter knowing me!!


 
There is only 1 SIP system with an NSAI certificate (Kingspan TEK) and the electrical points are most definitely NOT prefabricated in a sealed unit. 
Changing electrical points is no more trouble than in a block house or timberframe for that matter because the SIP walls are usually dry lined creating a service cavity.



> i looked at a house in co. meath built with poroton/paroc,met the owners and they where kind enough to give me a sample of the paroc.they said they got a polish builder who imported all from poland and was doing the building also.seemed like a great method to me does anyone know of any down sides to it,except for the price ,fbt seemed pricey


 
The 1 advantage that FBT have is that the blocks they import ( from TROST I believe ) are the ones with an NSAI certificate. The cert does not apply to Poroton across the board. You could end up with issues finding an architect willing to sign off on the house if you imported the Wienerberger ones for example. Also, the external insulating with PAROC is not covered by the certificate. The downside is that even house insurance companies could choose to load you or worse refuse to pay on a claim when they discover that you built with a non certified system. In fact, even getting a mortgage could prove tricky because the method of build is taken into account and again you'd be doing something not approved for use in this country. You can quote all the European certifications that you want. If they don't have a section specifically with guidelines for building in Ireland then they won't be accepted.


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## ollie30 (11 Dec 2006)

thanks sas,never thought about none certified products but then thats why we go onto the forum to ask and learn,cheers again.


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## Soarer (15 Jan 2009)

Afternoon all.
Sorry for resurrecting such an old thread, but I'm wondering if the same TF vs CB arguments exist today?

My builder has told us that there's no problem building an A rated concrete home these days using 6" (?) insulation, solar panels, recirculating air, etc.
Is this true?
If it is, surely concrete is the way to go these days, what with the slowdown in the economy? Obviously, any (out of work) builder would be able to build a concrete home, thus a lower price, as opposed to timberframe still being a fairly specialised construction?


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