# How long can you be still liable for a bill?



## Miriam12 (15 May 2007)

I got a bill recently for about €2000 from my solicitors from the sale and purchase of our house from about 20 months ago.
They said there was a clerical error made at the time and we were not billed correctly and that this money was outstanding.
I am pretty shocked to be landed with this now as €2000 is a lot to find! How long can we still be liable to pay a bill when the fault in the calculations was theirs?
Should i just sit tight and ignore it.. or cough up! I cant even find the final statments from the closing of the house sale (i think i binned it about 6 months ago not thinking i would ever need it again)
thanks


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## therave (15 May 2007)

ignore it until they write to you again then  write back and tell them that it's their error not yours and that you believed at the time the bill you paid and got a receipt for you believed was the full and final one..
they will probably keep after you but i personally think you are in the right,of course i stand to be corrected.


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## Swallows (15 May 2007)

They need to show evidence of where the error was made by itemising the bill, then you can decide if they have any claim, as €2000 is a big mistake to make. Once you have the information you are in a good negotiating position to make them an offer in full and final settlement.Half that figure would be a reasonable payment because of the time lapse and their mistake.


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## MOB (15 May 2007)

I disagree with the other posters.  I think this all sounds very suspect.   (I should say I am a practising solicitor.)   

Anybody can make a mistake.  Is it right to take advantage of somebody else's error?  I don't think so.  

If the solicitor gave you an incorrect figure for stamp duty (on which you relied) or something like that, well fair enough it could be argued that you relied on what they told you and budgeted accordingly.     But if they simply totted up their figures incorrectly and collected too little off you (or gave too much back) then I think it is quite dishonest to try to take advantage of their error.  If it was simply a totting error, I find it hard to believe that any house buyer could end up 2k to the good (at the time) and not know perfectly well that they had underpaid.    Be honest - did the bill really come as a shock?  or was it just a shock to get it after 6 months?


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## liteweight (16 May 2007)

Mob, the OP said s/he binned the bill about 6 months ago but the actual house purchase was 20 months ago. It's a bit rich to find a clerical error 20 months later. Do they not balance their books at least once a year? I agree that anyone can make a mistake but I also believe we don't have the right to punish other people because we've made one! 2k is a large bill to pay out of the monthly budget.


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## therave (16 May 2007)

Mob, i am also with liteweight on this,mistakes happen and i think it is unfair to ask for it after 20 months.
most people do sit up and take notice when they receive a letter from a solicitor but there has to be some cut off


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## dewdrop (16 May 2007)

while i agree with MOB i feel as a gesture the solicitor should reduce the bill to compensate the client with the shock and most likely the financial inconvenience of receiving such a demand. i worked in a bank ffor ove 45 years and was constantly amazed at how customers rarely checked figurres.


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## CCOVICH (16 May 2007)

To put the shoe on the other foot for a second, if you found out you were overcharged 2 years ago, would you expect a full refund now?


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## bobk (16 May 2007)

Miriam12, how much did you pay the solicitors initially?

€2,000 must have been a huge % of the final bill, probably even half.
I would consider that to be a bit more than a simple 'clerical error'.

You might want to check they did the other aspects of their job properly, like register the deeds correctly and send them to the correct bank.

As for what you should do...

After checking that the deeds are safely with the bank and the property is correctly registered.

Ask for a breakdown of the bill. I would question whether or not you should pay the professional fee and only offer to cover their expenses.

As you are short of cash at the moment, offer to pay €10 a month of the final bill making sure it's "without prejudice" and you have that in writing.

They may come to some sort of compromise after that.


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## therave (16 May 2007)

on expecting a refund now after 2 years.. i would not expect one.if i was stupid enough not to check my bill then that would be my fault and i have on occasion in the past pointed out to my solicitor when he was under charging us by 500 euro that he had made a mistake on the totalling on the bill..


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## mf1 (16 May 2007)

Ask for an explanation. Ask for a copy of 
1.	The original estimate
2.	The actual bill sent and paid 20 months ago
3.	The new bill. 

Where is the discrepancy? How much did you pay at the time? 

Without all of this information, it is a little pointless any of us speculating. But I disagree with most of the other posters: mistakes do happen and it is not fair to try and profit from those mistakes. If the shoe was on other foot and all that. 

You can be liable for a debt for 6 years after it accrues or longer if you acknowledge the debt. 

It is a bad idea to ignore things like this – it is highly unlikely to go away and simply makes it look as if you routinely ignore issues. 

Finally, as regards the rights and wrong of it ? Can I make the point that if a Judge was asked to adjudicate on this, they would ask all of the above questions and make a judgment.  People can have excuses and people can have a Defence in answer to a claim. 

An excuse is  (e.g.) I never got it, I was asleep, I had personal issues, it’s a bit late in the day, you should not have the right to punish me ( make me pay what is due)  because you've made a mistake, me no like……..

A Defence is (e.g.) the estimate and bill were the same and I paid the bill. I have a receipt and it is in full and final settlement. The second bill does not relate to me.  That money is not due. 

mf


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## liteweight (16 May 2007)

I'm not suggesting the OP should not pay the bill at all. If it were me, I would definitely ask for clarification. For example, when we last bought a property, the solicitor said the stamp duty was 6%. I pointed out that the VAT element of the purchase price should be deducted which brought us down to 5%. I verified this with revenue and supplied the relevant revenue info for him to look at. He agreed, reluctantly, but said if revenue got back to him looking for the extra 1% he would pass on the bill. Apparently revenue can take a long time to get back. I would have no problem with this as long as he supplied the relevant documentation. A clerical error is just all a bit vague for me. Did he undercharge on his hours or telephone calls for example. I don't think most solicitors would look for this type of thing almost 2 years later. They'd probably chalk it up to experience, swear for a while and never do it again. What if someone repaired your windows and 20 months later came back and asked for more as they'd made a mistake in pricing the materials? Do they have a leg to stand on?


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## TDON (16 May 2007)

I think it's very possible for a customer not to notice a mistake like this, in circumstances where a solicitor doesn't do a break down of the cost of the transaction and gives you some sort of deal for the whole transaction.

I'm not saying thats what happened here or not, cos I don't know. But say the solicitor at the time had an offer or said "we'll do the whole thing for €2,000.00 even and leave it at that, how does that sound", well obviously if it sounds an ok figure, you're going to say that's fine and not ask for a break down. This can happen for divorce cases so why not for conveyancing.

Another thing is, if by chance you don't get around to checking you Visa statements for instance and one day you do, and notice a charge of say €1,500.00, for something in a country you were never in, on a day you were sitting behind your desk and six months had passed before you noticed it, you're at nothing trying to get it back. I mean you should have been keeping tabs on your account. This firm should have been doing the same. If that were the case that firms conducted their business like that, how do any of us know when a bill like this is going to jump up and bite us.

I wouldn't offer them any further money. They know they are in the wrong and are chancing their arm. They don't know you've done away with your paper work. I'd check my bank account and ask the bank to provide me with a photo copy of the cheque you sent to them to clear your balance. I would them write to them enclosing it, stating "you billed me for "X" and I enclose a copy of the cheque for said amount dated "Z". This is the amount you billed me for and it is the amount I paid you, therefore I do not owe you any further monies."


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## Miriam12 (16 May 2007)

Thanks everyone for the advice so far:
Just to clarify some details... the €2000 is an approx figure.. in fact it is higher and an uneven amount.
The original bill was checked by me and i noticed an error at the time and we were refunded about €150 so it was already checked.
The "new" error was caused by the motage company incorrectly quoting the redemption figure to the solicitors so we were over paid... this was not apparent on the final statement unless you compared the mortgage company's statement with the solicitors one. 
They say it was not spotted at the time as the writer was on leave and a assistant sol dealt with it (who not longer works for them)
It was just spotted as the file was re-examined due to a capital gains refund being made just recently.

I am so cross because we were always unhappy with them and had to chase them on everything.  We were made to pay capital gains tax (which we should not have been and were eventually refunded €65,000) and therefore lost 18months interest on this money and had to pay accountants fees to chase it up. So this whole transaction has been a fustrating and expensive one! 

I woudl love to know are we LEGALLY obliged to pay the bill, or would it have to be fought out in the small courts?  taking on a solicitor in court is not an idea i relish!

Thanks everyone.


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## ubiquitous (16 May 2007)

Does this happen regularly in solicitors offices? There have been a number of threads on this sort of query over the past year or so.


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## mf1 (16 May 2007)

"The "new" error was caused by the mortgage company incorrectly quoting the redemption figure to the solicitors so we were over paid... "

I rest my case. No, there is no compulsion to pay other than moral/reasonable. If you don't pay, you could/should be sued. It is unthinkable that you should expect to profit and your solicitor lose out from your lenders mistake. The above situation is unanswerable by you in my opinion.  

As regards the CGT, this is a new element. Can I assume that the CGT Clearance Cert. did not issue in time for the closing, that the closing was imperative( by who?) and that in the absence of the CGT cert, the sum had to be deducted and remitted to Revenue? Mostly we would just not close until the Cert. issued. 

mf


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## mf1 (16 May 2007)

"Does this happen regularly in solicitors offices? "

It can - mostly in highly charged, highly emotive, high pressure situations with closings being delayed by late searches and the like and clients, (trying to do the impossible and sell/buy in one day in a huge chain of equally stressed people in removal vans) shouting at you and refusing to accept that it is not their money they are spending but their lenders etc.,etc. It really is not for the fainthearted. 

But as you can see from the above - this was the lenders mistake and the OP profited from the underpayment to lender/overpayment to them. 

mf


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## Miriam12 (16 May 2007)

mf.. just in answer to the CGT issue:
I see it as a separate issue and am happy (resigned) for it to be left where it is but what happened is more complicated:
The house we sold was originally purchased by my DH before we met. We were married and i lived (and our family) there and paid towards the mortgage. DH is not resident and works abroad. I am Irish and the resident here.  Its unusual circumstances.
We were charged CGT as Dh is non resident and paid up, only realising later that as the house was half mine due to our marrige (though we never put my name on it we didnt know this) my part should not have been charged CGT. Whether or not the solicitor should have realised this is arguable and i give him the benefit of the doubt as it is usual circumstances but another sol might have been on the ball and saved us this hassle and loss of money. I was refunded a large percentage of the CGT but it took a lot of chasing and phonecalls over many months and was a very fustrating experience. 

This is obivously a separate issue but all the fustration with dealing wiht the sol had coloured my opinion of the situation.  

As for whose fault it is:
the solicitor is not blaming the lender (they did issue a paper cory with the correct details.. so I am not sure if it was a verbal quotation that caused the error) but their own assistant sol, who no longer works with them. 

It is definately not my fault and this bill was already checked way back in NOV 05 by the solicitors and re-issued. 

I would never have the audacity to chase a client for a bill error made by an employee of mine more than a year and a half ago!

Say, for example, you were getting your house painted and the painter came back a year and a half later saying he made a mistake when adding up the number of tins of paint he used, as the lad who was working for him at the time told him it was 15 not 23 but look here is the receipt from woodies and you now owed him the money.. well you would prob tell him to take a hike!


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## ubiquitous (16 May 2007)

Miriam12 said:


> Say, for example, you were getting your house painted and the painter came back a year and a half later saying he made a mistake when adding up the number of tins of paint he used, as the lad who was working for him at the time told him it was 15 not 23 but look here is the receipt from woodies and you now owed him the money..



This example is not at all comparable to the situation you have described above. Your gripe with your solicitor does not concern the fees they charged you for the services they provided. Essentially you are expecting them to foot the bill for money refunded to you in error, an error that was caused by a third party. You haven't a leg to stand on.


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## monkeyboy (16 May 2007)

Miriam12 said:


> I am so cross because we were always unhappy with them and had to chase them on everything.  We were made to pay capital gains tax (which we should not have been and were eventually refunded €65,000) and therefore lost 18months interest on this money and had to pay accountants fees to chase it up. So this whole transaction has been a fustrating and expensive one!
> 
> Thanks everyone.




Was it the solictors firms negligence/error that had you incorrectly pay the CGT? if so I would be looking to deduct any lost interest from any outstanding bills at least or at most not paying as they made such a gross error.

If it was just plain cut and dry with no complications, as CCOVICH suggested, would you expect a full refund on an overcharge 2 years later- I would.


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## monkeyboy (16 May 2007)

Miriam12 said:


> have been charged CGT. Whether or not the solicitor should have realised this is arguable and i give him the benefit of the doubt as it is usual circumstances but another sol might have been on the ball and saved us this hassle and loss of money.
> 
> As for whose fault it is:
> the solicitor is not blaming the lender (they did issue a paper cory with the correct details.. so I am not sure if it was a verbal quotation that caused the error) but their own assistant sol, who no longer works with them.


 
well you did employ them for this purpose and tricky or not tricky they, as your advisor, made an error.

Acceptance of this is in the balme as apportioned to the departed solicitor.

You could be seeking costs from them for losses and should use this to just have the outstanding balances written off.

Actually 6 months interest on 65k comes conveniently close to 2k on some deposits.


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## Miriam12 (16 May 2007)

Point taken Ubiquitous.. but surely if i settled a final bill in good faith it is not a final bill? I paid them their fees as they requested at the time and i dont believe the mortgage company is at fault as the paper copy they provided is correct.. we only have the word of the solicitor that they were incorrectly quoted from them... surely they should check against the paper copy before issuing final bills?


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## ubiquitous (16 May 2007)

Again this is nothing to do with your solicitor's bill for services provided, but an amount that was refunded incorrectly to you. To repeat what someone else has said, if the shoe was on the other foot and the solicitor had gained two grand through a similar error, they would have no basis for attempting to argue that the money was theirs and not yours. You would therefore have a cut & dried case to recover this sum (along with costs), either in court or otherwise. I'm amazed that you can't see this.


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