# New boss for the HSE



## elacsaplau (18 Nov 2018)

I want Joe Schmidt


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## Leper (19 Nov 2018)

They'll probably get a two fingered Harvey Smith.(Most posers here probably because of age don't know who or what Harvey Smith stands for).


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## Purple (19 Nov 2018)

Leper said:


> They'll probably get a two fingered Harvey Smith.(Most posers here probably because of age don't know who or what Harvey Smith stands for).


I wasn't born in 1971 and there's no need to refer to AAM members as posers!


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## cremeegg (20 Nov 2018)

I turned down the HSE job myself. 

Although the plan I developed to improve the HSE was accepted as being just what was needed, there was no political willingness to give me the authority to implement it. 

No new legislation to support e-records. 

No support to break the logjam on salary linkages. I couldn't give nurses and other difficult-to-recruit staff pay raises without offering the same to all other grades.

No support to implement revised job descriptions without union agreement.

No support to streamline appointments by penalising people who miss their time slots.

No political cover in the event of a scandal breaking in the media, wether the events occurred on my watch or previously.

Although the money was derisory for an organisation with 100,000 staff, that was not the main issue.

Lots of responsibility, with almost no power. Set up to fail.


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## Purple (20 Nov 2018)

Unless there is a complete reorganisation of the whole structure of the HSE and our hospitals we will continue to see one of the best funded health services in the world deliver some of the worst value for money.


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## mathepac (7 Jan 2019)

Interestingly, I was interviewed for the job too and stated that my main activity would be to design the organisation based on an open systems model. Organisation design, OD, at this level begins with repurposing the organisation based on the views / feedback from the organisation's environment. Any other approach is like rearranging the deck-chairs on the Titanic; the HSE ship is sinking, moving chairs around won't change that. Fiddling with pay and conditions, blaming or penalising or even killing the owners for the lousy performance of  the system itself is not an answer. It is not fit for its supposed purpose, bin it.

Since Mary Harney invented the HSE some years ago in order to take the pressure off politicians for piss-poor country-wide health performance, the resultant monster is unsuitable as a vehicle to deliver world class/best in class medical care for its owners, the citizens of this country. It is simply a dog for the politicoes to kick come election time or come the next disaster its employees create.

Let's say for example we came up with a simple purpose statement that read something like "To deliver world class health-care to the citizens of Ireland, in a timely and effective manner" it'd go a long way to simplifying the various bureaucracies they've created for themselves that do nothing to fulfil that or a similar purpose.


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## cremeegg (7 Jan 2019)

mathepac said:


> Interestingly, I was interviewed for the job too



It seems that you haven't heard back yet.

I am sure you will and in fact I think you have every chance of being successful.




mathepac said:


> my main activity would be to design the organisation based on an open systems model. Organisation design, OD, at this level begins with repurposing the organisation based on the views / feedback from the organisation's environment.



Great, first ask the unions what they want then, ask the patients what they want, especially those who have trouble turning up for appointments, after all they are probably benefitting less that those who do turn up.



mathepac said:


> Any other approach is like rearranging the deck-chairs on the Titanic; the HSE ship is sinking, moving chairs around won't change that. Fiddling with pay and conditions, blaming or penalising or even killing the owners for the lousy performance of  the system itself is not an answer. It is not fit for its supposed purpose, bin it.



Hear Hear, the problems are down to the fiddlers, the deck chair movers and the critics.



mathepac said:


> Since Mary Harney invented the HSE some years ago in order to take the pressure off politicians for piss-poor country-wide health performance, the resultant monster is unsuitable as a vehicle to deliver world class/best in class medical care for its owners, the citizens of this country. It is simply a dog for the politicoes to kick come election time or come the next disaster its employees create.



And of course blame the politicians.



mathepac said:


> Let's say for example we came up with a simple purpose statement that read something like "To deliver world class health-care to the citizens of Ireland, in a timely and effective manner" it'd go a long way to simplifying the various bureaucracies they've created for themselves that do nothing to fulfil that or a similar purpose.



Now we are getting to the heart of it, a proposal to move ahead, just what is needed a slogan, sorry "simple purpose statement". The HSE will love it. I am sure you will get the job.


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## mathepac (7 Jan 2019)

cremeegg said:


> Great, first ask the unions what they want


No, freeze all pay & conditions for all employees.



cremeegg said:


> Now we are getting to the heart of it, a proposal to move ahead, just what is needed a slogan, sorry "simple purpose statement". The HSE will love it. I am sure you will get the job.


No, the slogans are the "mission statements" plastered up at the entrances to HSE facilities all over the country. Each one is different and makes no reference back to a purpose statement developed by the owner.


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## Deiseblue (8 Jan 2019)

Your principled stand on freezing pay and conditions mathepac is likely to be sorely tested in the likely event that your application is successful as your annual salary is set to increase by €50,000 to €300,000.
Fear not you will not be alone as consultant salaries are set to increase and the HSE funded bodies whose salaries were cut in line with the public service cuts are surely set for comparable pay restoration.
And then there is the prospect of nurses and midwives strikes !


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## Purple (8 Jan 2019)

Before the dust settles the people of Ireland will be spending about a half a billion less on health services because that money will be spent instead on healthcare wages. We spend more per capita on healthcare than almost every other country in the world. That despite the fact that we have one of the youngest populations in the developed world so should be spending considerably less. Out of that massive budget we spend a higher proportion on wages than just about anyone else.

Therefore the problem is structural. Just about everyone agrees on that. Yet nothing really changes. Why?

People don't want to work in our rotten system so our solution is to pay them more to put up with it. I think a better solution is to fix the system so that people want to work in it.
I know two nurses who have moved to England to work. Both said the money is about the same or worse but the job is easier because the structures are better and the ongoing training is far better. Maybe if we treated nurses better they wouldn't want a pay increase. The best way to reduce workplace stress is to make the structures people work within as efficient as possible. Maybe that's where we should to concentrating.


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## Purple (8 Jan 2019)

mathepac said:


> No, freeze all pay & conditions for all employees.


I'm a fan of increasing pay as efficiency is increased. If two people can do a job that used to require three people then the saving should be shared; they should get a proportion of the pay the third person used to get.


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## RETIRED2017 (8 Jan 2019)

Purple said:


> I'm a fan of increasing pay as efficiency is increased. If two people can do a job that used to require three people then the saving should be shared; they should get a proportion of the pay the third person used to get.


If all 3 were already working inefficieent increasing pay for 2 beyond the market rate is madness, I think you will find your solution is the cause of many problems in the HSE,


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## Purple (8 Jan 2019)

RETIRED2017 said:


> If all 3 were already working inefficieent increasing pay for 2 beyond the market rate is madness, I think you will find your solution is the cause of many problems in the HSE,


A task used to require 3 people to do it. The process by which the task is completed has been improved (changed to be done with less work) so now that same task can be done by 2 people. In that case I would pay the two people a bit more; share the gain.
If people knew that they would get a pay increase if they increased efficiency then they would be more likely to lead the change.


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## mathepac (8 Jan 2019)

Can I quote two recent family examples of why nurses (for example) should be paid less and why we have demonstrably too many of them.

My sister was admitted to A&E in a large Dublin hospital. Her experiences over 72 hrs in agony on a trolley in A&E before getting medical treatment changed her opinion of nurses, nursing and the HSE. Forever. Several people were admitted to the trolleys during her stay and she observed a number of nursing handover meetings as shifts changed. Not once during the handovers she observed were patients mentioned. The topics for discussion were: car insurance, holidays, who got off with whom at the week-end, who had the worst hangover, etc. Meanwhile an elderly woman with a broken arm/wrist moaned in pain for hours in the cubicle next door to her, with no treatment and no words of comfort.

At one stage my sister was told she needed a canula inserted  in order to have dyes injected before having a scan/x-ray. She waited patiently to have this procedure carried out and the next thing she knew, a nurse was trundling her trolley to the imaging queue/section. She protested at being moved without her canula but she might as well have been talking to the wall. She joined a queue where she waited for several hours before being told she needed to have a canula inserted before being treated!

My grandson has ongoing medical needs and amongst them is a dire need to have a feeding tube inserted in his tummy because the current naso-gastric tube is problematic. His consultant 180 kms from Dublin referred him to a consultant in a Dublin hospital, where his name joined the queue for treatment. A letter duly arrived notifying them of their date for assessment for suitability to have the procedure carried out. Daddy booked time off work, Mammy booked their daughter into Granny's for a couple of nights and off they journeyed to Dublin with one overnight.

Checking in at the hospital next day they joined the inevitable queue for a few hours and when the consultant saw them it was with the news that the hospital concerned no longer carried out the procedure my beautiful little man needs.

No-one cares about patients, the purpose of the HSE is to pay huge wedges of money to people whose only motivation is to earn more - time-servers, not life-savers. This is why I know the HSE needs repurposing because the staff see it as fulfilling one need, money, and patients see it as a source of decent health care delivered by professionals.

[edited: fixed a couple of typos - no need for "canals" in my sister's hand]


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## Purple (8 Jan 2019)

I'm not in the least bit surprised by any of that mathepac.


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## Deiseblue (8 Jan 2019)

RETIRED2017 said:


> If all 3 were already working inefficieent increasing pay for 2 beyond the market rate is madness, I think you will find your solution is the cause of many problems in the HSE,



Under current terms and conditions that cannot possibly work as the third person in this example cannot be made redundant except if they qualify to opt for an extremely costly voluntary redundancy


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## cremeegg (8 Jan 2019)

mathepac said:


> Can I quote two recent family examples of why nurses (for example) should be paid less and why we have demonstrably too many of them.



Very interesting story mathepac, and not at all what we see reported in the media.


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## Purple (9 Jan 2019)

Deiseblue said:


> Under current terms and conditions that cannot possibly work as the third person in this example cannot be made redundant except if they qualify to opt for an extremely costly voluntary redundancy


Indeed but people retire and people leave of their own volition (2000 to 3000 per year). There are no overnight fixes here; the big fix is thousands of small fixes.


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## mathepac (10 Jan 2019)

I don't agree. The thousands of small fixes are devouring  many, many millions annually and show no improvements from a patient perspective, in many respects performance has worsened, costs have increased, with queues lengthening and outcomes not improving one iota.

I accessed a few HSE internal and Government documents and made some discoveries in line with my own observations.

We have too many nurses. Measure the number any way you like, but we have:

Too many nurses employed per head of population
Too many nurses employéd per doctor employed
Too many nurses employed in comparison to other OECD countries
Across all employment categories/grade codes, employment levels in the HSE from year-end 2014 to year-end 2017 (the latest figures I have access to) rose by 13% cumulatively. In the same period, the overall population only rose by 3% cumulatively. In response to the argument that we need extra HSE staff to care for an ageing population, over this same period the number of citizens over 80 years of age increased by 10%, leaving the 13% increase in HSE employment numbers well ahead of the game. In 2014 in response to an in increase of 3.5% in our older population, HSE staffing levels jumped by 6.2%!

Overall, at the end of 2017, HSE employment levels expressed as whole-time equivalents, WTEs, stood at 110,795 up from 96,582, or a 15% increase from the start of 2014, that's an increase of 14,213 for the entire 4-year period, with no improvement in outcomes for patients.

Let me quote from the report I used as reference for this post*

"In recent years there has been a reocurring [sic] trend in recruitment toward the end of the year as monthly HSE recruitment increases significantly in the final three months of the year. In the final quarter of each of the last three years [2015 - 2017], the HSE has recruited on average an additional 1,432 staff. This level is around 40% of the HSE annual increase in employment over just a three month period. This recruitment in the final months of the year does not have a substantial impact on expenditure in that year, but rather has a significant impact in the following year as the expenditure pressure is essentially carried over."

and

"While the overall population in Ireland is growing, the age structure of this population is relatively young. In 2015, the old-age dependency ratio in Ireland was 20% compared to 33% in Germany. Demographic pressures on health services in Ireland are therefore much lower than other European countries with elderly populations."

More to follow.

*Spending Review 2018, HSE Staffing Levels: Management and Sustainability, July 2018


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## Purple (10 Jan 2019)

mathepac said:


> I don't agree. The thousands of small fixes are devouring many, many millions annually and show no improvements from a patient perspective, in many respects performance has worsened, costs have increased, with queues lengthening and outcomes not improving one iota.


They are not the fixes. There needs to be one plan with specific targets but many actions to reach those targets. When a change is proposed the question "does this get us closer to out targets?" should be asked. If the answer is no then don't do it. Organisations improve when they set the correct goals and are ruthless in their pursuit of those goals.

The HSE suffers from a lack of clear goals and strategy along with a lack of understanding at a regional level that the nurses and doctors and managers and administrators working at that local level are the HSE. It is not some nebulous thing up in Dublin, it is them and they are it.


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## cremeegg (10 Jan 2019)

Purple said:


> The HSE suffers from a lack of clear goals and strategy



The HSE is coming down with goals, mission statements, strategies and slogans of every type.

It suffers from a lack of management. It needs competent management with full support.

Support from politicians, support from staff and unions and with adequate legal and regulatory authority to manage.


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## Purple (10 Jan 2019)

cremeegg said:


> The HSE is coming down with goals, mission statements, strategies and slogans of every type.
> 
> It suffers from a lack of management. It needs competent management with full support.
> 
> Support from politicians, support from staff and unions and with adequate legal and regulatory authority to manage.


I agree. An organisation, of any size, should only have one mission statement or set of goals. It should be no more than a paragraph. It should be simple and clear and it should define the reason for the existence of the organisation. It should then be referenced during every decision making process. It should inform you when you are defining what "lack of management" means and what "Support from politicians, support from staff and unions and with adequate legal and regulatory authority to manage" means. In other words when you say it needs support from politicians, staff and unions it should make clear the nature of the required support and to what ends those involved are working towards. 
Taking €300,000,000 out of the clinical budget of the HSE to fund pay increases should not be aligned to the overall goals of the organisation but retaining staff and keeping them happy should.


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## mathepac (1 Feb 2019)

mathepac said:


> My grandson has ongoing medical needs and amongst them is a dire need to have a feeding tube inserted in his tummy because the current naso-gastric tube is problematic. His consultant 180 kms from Dublin referred him to a consultant in a Dublin hospital, where his name joined the queue for treatment. A letter duly arrived notifying them of their date for assessment for suitability to have the procedure carried out. Daddy booked time off work, Mammy booked their daughter into Granny's for a couple of nights and off they journeyed to Dublin with one overnight.


After the last fiasco, my grandson was scheduled for his urgent, life-improving, non-elective surgery in Crumlin next Monday. My daughter just got a phone-call cancelling the appointment. She and her husband are distraught as am I and the rest of the family, and I for one am very, very angry. I've just got off the phone so I'm venting here guys so maybe cut me a bit of slack (again!).

The problem is not the procedure itself, it is the after-care on the ward, which may run into the next unnecessary and ignoble strike action by members of a greedy, so-called caring profession. While their money-fuelled actions continue, even at the current published level, my grandson's vital surgery will be delayed indefinitely.

Will he die without it? It will shorten his life and condemn him to repeated bouts of unnecessary suffering, illness and hospitalisation, diminishing his quality of life for as long as he survives.

Will the surgery save his life? Probably not and there are risks, but his parents have taken the best professional, medical advice available and we have collectively our own unfortunate experience to draw on here with his late older brother and my late son.

This then is how we treat those most vulnerable citizens in modern Ireland; their needs, their very lives are superceded by that greatest of all evils, the love of money. To quote the great Mahatma Gandhi "The true measure of any society can be found in how it treats its most vulnerable members."

HSE, Dept of Health, nurses and nursing union, bow your heads in abject shame, you have failed this simple test.


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## Purple (2 Feb 2019)

That’s disgraceful mathepac. What’s worse is I am not in the least bit surprised and don’t for a minute expect any better from nurses.
Can we please stop the nonsense talk about “front line staff” as if they are less greedy, more caring, more dedicated or more ethical than anyone else. Nursing, teaching, Gardai etc. It’s just a job, not a vocation. All they really care about is money and the people on the other side be damned.


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## Deiseblue (2 Feb 2019)

The nurses undoubtedly feel they have a case as shown by the huge support for industrial action and indeed many media commentators feel the same ,  it is equally encouraging that all polls reflect the fact that they have huge public support and all the political parties bar FG are supportive.
Thankfully I’ve no relations or friends in need of surgery or other medical help but if I did I’d place the blame where it belongs - with the Government.
Stick with it - the Government will compromise


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## mathepac (2 Feb 2019)

I don't want the government to compromise, I want my grandson to have his surgery NOW, I want the nurses back at work NOW. The nurses have taken and agreed to the pay-awards made to other public-servants in 2018 and scheduled for 2019, all nicely documented elsewhere in AAM; these action by them are just naked greed. Listen to their mouth-pieces, "Nurses' pay first, nurses' conditions second, oh and patient services, health and safety a very poor 3rd". Those are their prioities as articulated on news bulletins and print media repeatedly. Will paying them more improve the services they doled out to my sister as documented earlier by me in this thread? I don't believe so. Nurses are not poor nor are they poorly paid. If my sister needs to hospitalised again, which hopefully she won't, I guarantee she'd still have to listen to the idle, underemployed, well paid nurses, gossip about their excessive drinking, sex lives and their whinges about the costs of foreign holidays and car insurance. If that's their focus while at *work*, we have too many of them, as documented in the mid 2018 report I quoted from earlier and we pay them too much.

Please don't try defending the indefensible as this will just prove to be yet another victory for PR over fact.


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## Deiseblue (2 Feb 2019)

You say tomato - - -


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## mathepac (3 Feb 2019)

No, I can quote facts and figures to back up my position as well as detail the sort of treatment meted out to close family members in the recent past. Facts, figures and detailed experiences in support of your position and less of the trite commentary please, my family members' health is in the hands of a yet another group greedy, money-grubbing, well-paid, self-serving public "servants".

Their colleagues the Guards have hit the headlines again in today's Sunday Times. EU police training money has allegedly been found resting in private Garda bank accounts. Page 6 News for anyone interested or surprised. The game-keepers are now poaching more than the poachers they are meant to launch prosecutions against, while the nurses, the HSE, the Minister and Dept of Health are causing more pain, suffering, stress and anguish than they are alleviating. Profit before people  and their safety, health and well-being.

Viva La Quinta Brigada to be sung at all future Dail sessions.


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## Deiseblue (3 Feb 2019)

The Irish Times published an interesting article making the argument that nursing numbers are skewed and they mask staff shortages.
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/...and-mask-real-shortage-in-hospitals-1.3775004

Equally a Journal.ie published a factcheck asking the question: Are Irish nurses among the best paid in the World ?

The was rated UNPROVEN basically because the OECD admit that the data on nurse’s remuneration which is frequently used as an indication of where Irish nurses fall on the scale is not a reliable source .

Apparently some countries include a large number of non professional lower paid workers , the system does not include  different overtime rate systems and specific allowances that exist in in each healthcare system.

Neither does it reflect the fact that Irish nurses work longer hours than nurses in countries such as the U.K. , US , Canada and Australia.

The article also points out that the Department of Health has not claimed that Irish nurses and midwives are amongst the best paid in the World.

The entire article can be read by googling Journal.ie factcheck nurses.

The fact that both the Government as employers and the employees acknowledge the  fact that there is a shortage of nurses , consultants and GPS emphasises the reasoning that better salaries and working conditions are indeed available abroad and as such there is a need to increase wages and improve conditions in an effort to recruit the required staff here.

On the basis of anecdotal evidence I note that Irish nurses in Australia and Abu Dhabi are stating that they are earning double what they earn in Ireland !
I stand by my assertion that you are blaming the wrong people.

Better the La Quinta Brigada than Franco’s fascists


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## mathepac (4 Feb 2019)

I have referred to publications with far more credibility than either of those you refer to because they quote number - WTEs, populations, ratios, percentages. The journal.ie struggles with basic English a lot of the time, never mind statistics and I have no interest in viewing anything they have to say on this matter or most others because their literacy and grammar is below par.

The source for my facts in turn quotes its sources and yes it's a concern that HIQA is taking a census of HSE staff to try to establish how many staff they have employed at what grades. There are three unions that represent nurses and there is one board where all nurses must be registered and a limited number of employers for nurses why the numbers seem to be such a big mystery is beyond me.

I have only ever heard that we have too few doctors, never that we have too few nurses in employment. The seasonal nursing shortages causing the massive budget over-runs as reported,  are caused by a combination of factors, including the appalling absenteeism of nursing grades. In 2018 at 4.8%, this was exactly four times the absenteeism rate for medical and dental staff in the HSE. It was the 3rd highest in percentage terms of any staff group in the HSE and was consistently between 4.7% and 5% for the three year period 2016-2018. Given that nurses account for more than one-third of all HSE staff, that is an enormous cost and a huge number of people missing from work at the same time on a regular basis. The nurses' union of course commissioned a defensive report to justify their repeated absences from work in droves.

Whatever about the WTEs employed or actually at work on any given day, nurses are under-employed as my sister's experiences during her hospitalisation prove. She is not a woman prone to exaggeration and is both calm and tolerant. For her to "come out swinging like a bar-room brawler" about the treatment she experienced and what she witnessed others subjected to by nurses shocked me.

If as you claim nursing figures in other jurisdictions include non-nursing staff, that would tend to inflate the ratio of nurses/doctors, nurses/1,000 of population in those jurisdictions, yet our corresponding ratios are higher, surely proof positive we have too many nurses. Maybe, just maybe those nurses who do show up for work are in the wrong places, thereby creating yet more artificial nursing shortages. Remember that nurses manage nurses and maybe we have too many nurse managers, directors of nursing etc. Too many chiefs and not enough indians. And above all else, remember that this is the HSE we are discussing here where just about anything can happen and probably has. PPARS anyone?

In one place where I worked on multi-disciplinary mental health team, we had a very senior nurse who prepared breakfast for  staff members and any patients who happened to be around. I’m not sure what other work this individual did. We were inevitably joined most mornings by more senior nurses who claimed to be doing their "managing by walking around" thing, eating free food and sitting on their arses for half the morning. We only ever saw them at meal-times; co-incidence of course.

I remember  being at a multi-disciplinary team meeting in another place where one of the counsellors raised the issue of alcohol being served to chemically dependent clients at a Christmas party. The nurses involved were highly indignant stating that a few bottles of stout and a glass of whiskey at Christmas never did anyone any harm, and it would be better  for all concerned if the complainer helped serve at the party rather than whinge afterwards. There were consequences, serious consequences for one of the drinkers but of course the resultant inquiry went nowhere. "Nothing to see here folks, go about your business and leave us nurses to ours". Some of what I witnessed was beyond belief. And yes folks, guilty as charged, I am a former HSE employee.


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## mathepac (4 Feb 2019)

Deiseblue said:


> Better the La Quinta Brigada than Franco’s fascists


Sorry my reference to the Fifth International Brigade seems to have passed you by. They of course opposed the Blueshirts who "sailed beneath the swastika to Spain", our homegrown Fascist supporters,  political fore-fathers of Leo & Co.


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## Purple (4 Feb 2019)

mathepac, there are some posters who will blindly support any strike and any pay claim because of their extreme socialist ideology. Talking to them is akin to discussing science with a creationist. Don't waste your time; you will just end up frustrated by their illogical moral certainties.


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## Deiseblue (4 Feb 2019)

Unfortunately none of the publications you referred to address the reasons behind the current industrial dispute.

Namely the number of nurses currently employed as whole time equivalents ( WTEs ) in the HSE and :
The Question of nurse’ Salaries.

I at least attempted to do so by referencing the Irish Times article which states and I quote “ Last year the HSE said it employed 37,525 nursing WTE.As there are 4.7 million people in Ireland , that comes in at about eight nurses per thousand . But hold on a minute : that’s actually below the EU average . “

That ties in neatly with the widely accepted view by both the nurses , their Unions and the Government that our hospitals are understaffed and given the huge public support that seems to resonate with them as well.


You are more than entitled to disparage the Journal’s factcheck exercise and rely on anecdotal reports but what is undoubtedly correct is that Irish nurses work longer hours than nurses in other countries including those countries which have employed a huge number of Irish nurses.

As also reported the Department of Health have stated that their salaries are competitive but they’re obviously not as nurses flock abroad and quite obviously are enjoying better net salaries and terms and conditions.

That situation is not going to change until such time as salaries are increased increasing the possibility of recruiting much needed additional nurses thus improving services and conditions.

I sense a weakening in the Government resolve which hopefully will lead to a compromise.


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## odyssey06 (4 Feb 2019)

Ireland should need less nurses than EU average given we have younger than average age profile.
Plus Ireland has a relatively large private medical sector. Are those nurses part of the stats?
HSE should have much less nurses per head than EU average.


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## Feemar5 (4 Feb 2019)

I wouldn’t be a nurse for any amount of money and I feel their working conditions are dreadful but I don’t agree with the current strike.   I understand their unions signed up to the current pay deal for public servants and that should not be broken.   If the deadlock can be resolved by hiring more nurses or improved working conditions that’s fine but the pay element has to stand.   I also think there should be some sanctions for the unions involved - when you sign up to something you should stick to it.


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## Purple (5 Feb 2019)

Feemar5 said:


> I wouldn’t be a nurse for any amount of money and I feel their working conditions are dreadful but I don’t agree with the current strike.   I understand their unions signed up to the current pay deal for public servants and that should not be broken.   If the deadlock can be resolved by hiring more nurses or improved working conditions that’s fine but the pay element has to stand.   I also think there should be some sanctions for the unions involved - when you sign up to something you should stick to it.


I agree with most of that but the "I wouldn't be a X for any money" argument is bogus.
I wouldn't clean out septic tanks for a living but I don't think that should for the basis for a pay rise for the people who do do it.


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## Purple (5 Feb 2019)

Deiseblue said:


> I at least attempted to do so by referencing the Irish Times article which states and I quote “ Last year the HSE said it employed 37,525 nursing WTE.As there are 4.7 million people in Ireland , that comes in at about eight nurses per thousand . But hold on a minute : that’s actually below the EU average . “


Typical misuse of statistics from the Irish Times. They know well that there are a great many nurses in the private system but they choose to misrepresent the facts in order to support their socailist, populist agenda.


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## Deiseblue (5 Feb 2019)

The current industrial dispute is a result of the ballot on the Government’s pay proposals to solve staffing shortages.
This ballot returned a huge mandate for industrial action.
This minority Government will not sanction monetary penalties on the nurses as they are only too aware that public sympathy lies with the nurses and the other political parties are supportive of the nurse’s case


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## Leo (5 Feb 2019)

Deiseblue said:


> public sympathy lies with the nurses



The AAM indicators would suggest otherwise, and I think there's a broader and growing dissatisfaction with ever increasing costs of an under-performing public sector.


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## Delboy (5 Feb 2019)

4,000 extra nurses hired in the last few years so I'd wonder about the staff shortage.
How many more do we need and how much more pay (20% pay rise the current demand) to get to this world class health system nirvana that we're told is waiting if only more and more money is spent


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## Deiseblue (5 Feb 2019)

Leo said:


> The AAM indicators would suggest otherwise, and I think there's a broader and growing dissatisfaction with ever increasing costs of an under-performing public sector.


I’d prefer to go with Taoiseach Varadkar’s view that in terms of future stoppages the Government “ wants to resolve this “ as a result of “ the enormous public support “ that the nurses have accumulated.
Perhaps this dispute is on it’s way to the Labour Court ?
I must admit that the day AAM indicators indicate the general view on industrial disputes is a terrifying prospect from my point of view !
It’s at times like this and previously the Garda dispute that the Government must wish for the old days of social partnership


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## Purple (5 Feb 2019)

Deiseblue said:


> It’s at times like this and previously the Garda dispute that the Government must wish for the old days of social partnership


Socialist Partnetrship, i.e. two rounds of Benchmarking cost the people of Ireland the price of the new National Children's Hospital each year, every year.
I don't think average Garda pay of €72,000 per year, plus €36,000 worth of pension contributions for a package worth €108,000 a year, is good value for money.
I don't think that average nurses pay of €57,600 a year, plus €18,000 worth of pension contributions for a package worth €74,000 a year, is good value for money either.


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## Leo (5 Feb 2019)

Deiseblue said:


> I’d prefer to go with Taoiseach Varadkar’s view that in terms of future stoppages the Government “ wants to resolve this “ as a result of “ the enormous public support “ that the nurses have accumulated.



Of course you would, but let's not fool ourselves that this strike has earned them any more support than they had in advance. In reality, it is only serving to erode that support.



Deiseblue said:


> I must admit that the day AAM indicators indicate the general view on industrial disputes is a terrifying prospect from my point of view !



You will note the overwhelming majority on this site will side with the individual in cases of mistreatment or unfair work practices, so if they have a genuine grievance, how are their representatives doing such a bad job of communicating those with a media that is often biased towards such causes? There are threads on this issues on other forums that are a lot less moderate than the views on here. More and more people are starting to shout stop to greed masquerading as anything other than what it is.


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## RETIRED2017 (5 Feb 2019)

Purple said:


> Socialist Partnetrship, i.e. two rounds of Benchmarking cost the people of Ireland the price of the new National Children's Hospital each year, every year.
> I don't think average Garda pay of €72,000 per year, plus €36,000 worth of pension contributions for a package worth €108,000 a year, is good value for money.
> I don't think that average nurses pay of €57,600 a year, plus €18,000 worth of pension contributions for a package worth €74,000 a year, is good value for money either.


The pension PRSI part  Is Purples own doing He cannot blame public servant because he and other private sector workers allow the situation to go on where the Public servants PRSI contributions are guaranteed and his is not is down to the purples of the private sector ,

If the private sector paying PRSI A1 start looking to get the same deal as public service PRSI A1 payees, we would have no strike  because provisions would have to be put in place to meet there pension in the future so there would be no money grab by one sector at the expense of another sector,

Happy retirement to all you future private sector workers  insist your prsi buys the same pension  as public servants workers would be a better use of your time than complaining about public servants,


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## Purple (5 Feb 2019)

RETIRED2017 said:


> Happy retirement to all you future private sector workers insist your prsi buys the same pension as public servants workers would be a better use of your time than complaining about public servants,


By 2050 all taxes received by the State from all sources will be required to meet projected State pension liabilities. 
Nurses, Gardai and all State employees should, in the words of a friend of mine who works in HR in the public sector, "just shut up, keep their heads down and be grateful."


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## mathepac (6 Feb 2019)

Deiseblue said:


> Unfortunately none of the publications you referred to address the reasons behind the current industrial dispute.


The reason for the strikes is simple - *greed*. The nurses, through their unions, took the money on offer last year and now they want more. "So, eh, John over there went to like college for 4 years and so did I. So, like, his wages are more than mine so I want more money; parity the union rep calls it. And of course more money will make me eh, like, show up for work more often than I did before getting the extra wages. And look after them eh, patients I think they're called, a bit better", to paraphrase a nurse interviewed on the wireless yesterday.

I heard a union rep for the nurses say that nurses are "distraught" at being on the picket lines. A TV news clip from outside a hospital showed nurses in high spirits, smiling, chatting animatedly to each other and apparently, based on the evidence of the film, having a great  old time for themselves.

I have been told that the action by "management" in cancelling scheduled procedures is a PR exercise and a dastardly conspiracy between the twin evils of the HSE and Government. This is allegedly designed to cast nurses and their union in a bad light. If it's true how silly are the nurses to provide them with such wonderful material! As Anne Doyle said on the Joe Show, "Go back to work, negotiate." Me paraphrasing again. You can't be seen to back down? Maybe, just maybe, you'd be seen as caring, professional, mature, compassionate. And as a people who honour contracts. As @Leo said above, I believe the tide is beginning to turn against the strikes and the effects on those vulnerable people who are suffering the consequences. 

I hear nurses and their unions blame the HSE and "the system" As @Purple I think said above nurses are a massive part of the HSE and "the system" and in fact nurses contribute to running "the system". 37,000 nurses out of a total of 104,000 HSE employees (WTEs or real people, use which number suits your own particular case) but 36% of any system is a giant lump of the "the system".


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## elacsaplau (6 Feb 2019)

Mathepac - I am very sorry about the impact of this strike on your grandson and your family. I wish you all well. Undoubtedly, there must be very many others similarly "collaterally damaged". I have been visiting an elderly neighbour in hospital recently and frankly am less than impressed by the service delivery (sorry: don't have time to elaborate.....need to do my own job).

Purple - many excellent observations. Would you mind elaborating/explaining what you mean precisely by this and/or provide the relevant link please?



Purple said:


> By 2050 all taxes received by the State from all sources will be required to meet projected State pension liabilities.


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## Deiseblue (6 Feb 2019)

You can sense the panic in Government circles as they try to involve either the WRC or the Labour Court in the dispute although their cackhanded efforts to involve the WRC without contacting the INMO defies belief.
Given the public opprobrium concerning the cost over run on the children’s hospital , huge public support for the nurses as acknowledged by Mr. Varadkar , positive supportive media coverage and the  acknowledged staffing shortages it appears if the nurses remain strong then the question of both staffing and pay will be addressed.
Having stood on three picket lines in my time I can say that the levels of togetherness and bonhomie are huge and the craic is mighty- no need for dour faces.
I’m not in Waterford currently but if the strikes continue I will certainly join friends on the picket line , old friends and newer friends made during my late father’s last illness- wonderful dedicated people


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## Delboy (6 Feb 2019)

It's great to see that you do fully believe in some things that Varadkar says! Of course, just the comment from him that suit your ideology! 

The 'positive media coverage' is a given for practically any public sector strike.


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## RETIRED2017 (6 Feb 2019)

Delboy said:


> It's great to see that you do fully believe in some things that Varadkar says! Of course, just the comment from him that suit your ideology!
> 
> The 'positive media coverage' is a given for practically any public sector strike.


You are not going to get anywhere while you mix up ideology and sectional interest ,


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## Deiseblue (6 Feb 2019)

When the man is right , the man is right.
I also believe that his stance on Brexit is right.
He’s not the Great Satan


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## Purple (6 Feb 2019)

elacsaplau said:


> Purple - many excellent observations. Would you mind elaborating/explaining what you mean precisely by this and/or provide the relevant link please?


More here.
If we funded our State pensions, rather that paying for them from current taxation, we would need to have €440 billion in that fund to cover our liabilities. Yes, our pension liability is more than twice the size of our national debt. 
In order to make it sustainable we need to reduce all State pensions, including the old age pension, by 35%.
If you are under 30 work on the assumption that you won't get a State pension. Yet another thing that pensioners have done to their grandchildren.


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## cremeegg (7 Feb 2019)

Purple said:


> I don't think average Garda pay of €72,000 per year, plus €36,000 worth of pension contributions for a package worth €108,000 a year, is good value for money.
> I don't think that average nurses pay of €57,600 a year, plus €18,000 worth of pension contributions for a package worth €74,000 a year, is good value for money either.



I see your link for the pensions, not great, a company which sells pensions trying to scare people into more savings.

Have you a link for the average Garda pay, average nurse pay figures.


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## Purple (8 Feb 2019)

cremeegg said:


> I see your link for the pensions, not great, a company which sells pensions trying to scare people into more savings.
> 
> Have you a link for the average Garda pay, average nurse pay figures.


Average nurses pay 

Average Garda pay.
If anything my figures are conservative given that their average pay is €72,000 and their pension is worth up to 80% of their pay.


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## odyssey06 (8 Feb 2019)

I heard a nurse on RTE 9 o'clock news last night comparing their stance to that of Rosa Parks. I don't know whether it's more offensive \ delusional or ignorant.


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## Purple (8 Feb 2019)

odyssey06 said:


> I heard a nurse on RTE 9 o'clock news last night comparing their stance to that of Rosa Parks. I don't know whether it's more offensive \ delusional or ignorant.


Yea, Rosa wasn't Front Line Staff, how dare that nurse reduce their struggle to the petty level of the Civil Rights movement in the American South in the 1960's. This is much more important and fundamental than where you could sit on a bus, this is about NURSES!!!


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## RETIRED2017 (8 Feb 2019)

Purple said:


> Yea, Rosa wasn't Front Line Staff, how dare that nurse reduce their struggle to the petty level of the Civil Rights movement in the American South in the 1960's. This is much more important and fundamental than where you could sit on a bus, this is about NURSES!!!


This is about people taking advantage of people who think the know it all but don't , very easy to pull the wool over there eyes and always will be

  Long term the only thing they will own is the requirement in law to pay for the undertakings given to make good on contracts entered into ,

It is the so called well paid smart people who will finish up paying for  all this  in the end,

When this is finished high earners will forget and blame the people on low income wages who are required to keep Ireland running day in day out ,


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## Leo (8 Feb 2019)

odyssey06 said:


> I heard a nurse on RTE 9 o'clock news last night comparing their stance to that of Rosa Parks. I don't know whether it's more offensive \ delusional or ignorant.



A few of them also spoke about taking this action for the patients, but then all went on to just talk about how they wanted more money as if that somehow has a direct bearing on patient outcomes.


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## RETIRED2017 (8 Feb 2019)

Leo said:


> A few of them also spoke about taking this action for the patients, but then all went on to just talk about how they wanted more money as if that somehow has a direct bearing on patient outcomes.


We Will have to wait and see if the money part works,


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## Purple (8 Feb 2019)

There are 37,520 Full Time Equivalent directly employed nurses and midwives working for the HSE.
How many actual nurses and midwives are there? In other words how many nurses work part time?

Is there really a shortage of nurses or is there really just a shortage of nurses willing to work a full week?


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## Leo (8 Feb 2019)

RETIRED2017 said:


> We Will have to wait and see if the money part works,



Ah we don't, it's been proven over and again that money is an ineffective means of motivation over time. If money alone worked we'd have some of the best politicians in the world!!


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## Delboy (8 Feb 2019)

Purple said:


> Is there really a shortage of nurses or is there really just a shortage of nurses willing to work a full week?


Gerard Howlin on SO'R show earlier said the turnover rate for nurses in Irish hospitals is 5%. The equivalent rate in Oz is 15%.


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## RETIRED2017 (8 Feb 2019)

Leo said:


> Ah we don't, it's been proven over and again that money is an ineffective means of motivation over time. If money alone worked we'd have some of the best politicians in the world!!


I agree with you fully in the above post, The point I was making has nothing to do with motivation and all got to do with the transfer of more money from taxpayers telling them it is for there own good,
Lots of high earning  taxpayers have already bought we are taking this action for the patients from the feedback i am getting high earners  will be footing the Bill   the agree in giving Nurses more money/pay ,


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## Purple (8 Feb 2019)

Delboy said:


> Gerard Howlin on SO'R show earlier said the turnover rate for nurses in Irish hospitals is 5%. The equivalent rate in Oz is 15%.


There must be some mistake; nurses are leaving Ireland in their droves. Sure whatsherface, your wan who's in charge of the INMO said so and the nurses, much like all angels, are incapable of lying.


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## Purple (8 Feb 2019)

RETIRED2017 said:


> I agree with you fully in the above post, The point I was making has nothing to do with motivation and all got to do with the transfer of more money from taxpayers telling them it is for there own good,
> Lots of high earning  taxpayers have already bought we are taking this action for the patients from the feedback i am getting high earners  will be footing the Bill   the agree in giving Nurses more money/pay ,


Someone stole all your punctuation again...


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## RETIRED2017 (8 Feb 2019)

Purple said:


> Someone stole all your punctuation again...


O the smart one who travels light
It is the people who think they are smart who are being stole from and blame others  congratulations on you next pay increase I am sure the Nurses can do with most of it,
People do things to make others feel good ,


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## Purple (8 Feb 2019)

RETIRED2017 said:


> congratulations on you next pay increase I am sure the Nurses can do with most of it,


Thanks and sure they'll only get a little over half of it. They are well worth it, angels the lot of them. Not one of them is lazy or greedy or incompetent or disinterested... now if we could just get them to work a full day...


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## RETIRED2017 (8 Feb 2019)

Purple said:


> Thanks and sure they'll only get a little over half of it. They are well worth it, angels the lot of them. Not one of them is lazy or greedy or incompetent or disinterested... now if we could just get them to work a full day...


I think they work a full day not many on AAM,


By the way I do agree with you about there are lots of people who no longer work a full week public and private sector , there are lots of people hoping to retire early public and private sector ,which means more pressure on housing If the are replaced lots will be from outside Ireland all needing extra housing in most cases,

I see the results myself like making an appointment to see a doctor unless I push which doctor I want to see I will finish up seeing a different doctor each time I go,


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## Purple (8 Feb 2019)

[broken link removed]is very interesting and blows the entire INMO argument out of the water.
I suspect there's little chance of the Comrades in RTE ever asking their Brethren in the INMO any hard questions based on these facts, instead reporting emotive, emotional fluff pieces from the picket line.


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## RETIRED2017 (8 Feb 2019)

Purple said:


> [broken link removed]is very interesting and blows the entire INMO argument out of the water.
> I suspect there's little chance of the Comrades in RTE ever asking their Brethren in the INMO any hard questions based on these facts, instead reporting emotive, emotional fluff pieces from the picket line.


Once high earning taxpayers are prepared to pay up no point in blaming RTE , INMO are pushing an open door, High earners are not going to protest end of story,


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## Ceist Beag (8 Feb 2019)

It looks like your link is to a pdf on your harddrive Purple.


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## mathepac (8 Feb 2019)

Over the last 3 years on any given working day 4.83% of nurses are absent from work. They are not on maternity leave, they are not on annual leave, they are not on exam or study leave, they are not on certified sick leave, they're just not at work.

In WTE terms, that's 1,800 nurses not at work. Let that sink in, 1,800 nurses not on duty on any given day and please check my numbers. I don't know how many nursing employees that is - actual people, but surely Simon knows or can find out. This was the kind of question PPARS was supposed to be able to answer at the touch of a button (9 million estimated cost turned into 221 million spend before they binned it.)

I think your last sentence answers your own question in part,  





> a shortage of nurses willing to work a full week


 or just show up for duty.


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## Purple (8 Feb 2019)

Ceist Beag said:


> It looks like your link is to a pdf on your harddrive Purple.


https://www.per.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/26.-Nursing-and-Midwifery-Expenditure.pdf


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## RETIRED2017 (10 Feb 2019)

Purple said:


> Thanks and sure they'll only get a little over half of it. They are well worth it, angels the lot of them. Not one of them is lazy or greedy or incompetent or disinterested... now if we could just get them to work a full day...


ALL are from  generations  younger than me, lots are around the same age as you, lots are younger than you , What ever happened to all the younger generations you were Posting about not being greedy like the older folk,

Once the gave a pay rise to the Garda there is no argument why the Nurses should not get one as well ,

If posters/people were supporting all government employees should get a pay rise if the Garda got one we would not be in the position we are in now,

All the rest will get extra pay rise just give it a little more time,Slowly slowly catchy Monkey' so we might as well bring it to a head now,

As you already said by 2050 all taxes well have being signed over to pay  binding contracts ,including the binding contract to make up any short fall in the future in prsi pensions of public service ,
There is no sign of the private sector campaign to insist on  Binding  pensions payments like the public sector have secured when the moved from class D prsi to class A1 prsi this will have a major long term consequence for private sector workers unless there is a campaign to get the same conditions for the same Prsi contributions,


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## Deiseblue (11 Feb 2019)

Labour Court issue a recommendation that apparently addresses the pay issue , apparently to the order of 7.3 % - hopefully acceptable to all parties 

All Unions representing public sector workers must be chomping at the bit to see the details of the recommendation to see if there’s an opportunity for their members to benefit also - particularly the teacher unions who are outside the current wage agreement


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## RETIRED2017 (11 Feb 2019)

Lots will be unhappy ,There are lots of hardworking public servants who should get the same as the nurses end of,
They have my support I hope the take action shortly,


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## cremeegg (11 Feb 2019)

RETIRED2017 said:


> Lots will be unhappy ,There are lots of hardworking public servants who should get the same as the nurses end of,
> They have my support I hope the take action shortly,



The increase the nurses want would cost €300m I understand before any knock on claims. Enough to build a new children's hospital every few years.


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## RETIRED2017 (11 Feb 2019)

cremeegg said:


> The increase the nurses want would cost €300m I understand before any knock on claims. Enough to build a new children's hospital every few years.


The right wing ATM Machine will pay up not hard to fool them all of the time,


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## mathepac (11 Feb 2019)

It just goes to show what you can get by bullying and threatening the vulnerable. Shame on the nurses, shame of the unions and the powers that be for bending the knee to the unions. Any bets on the absenteeism figures improving? By that I mean moving just an iota away from the current figure of almost 5%. I suggest no change.

On Marian Finucane on Sunday someone claimed that the public health system is short 1,700 WTE nurses. This number is frighteningly close to the 1,800 WTEs I stated are absent from work each year, based solely on HSE figures- they are not on certified sick-leave, maternity or parental leave, annual leave, exam leave or study leave, they're just not at work. Neither nurses nor the nursing unions dispute this figure.

Instead, nurses claim absenteeism is due to the stresses and strains caused by "the system". Nurses, 38% of the total HSE WTE employees *are* the system, so let’s see if the system improves with more money in their wallets. Let’s see if patient safety and treatment outcomes improve with more cash, which of course it was never about.

Also on the Marian Finucane show on Sunday, a nurse with lots of experience reminded us that in the 90's, *nurses* decided they would work 12-hour shifts so as to reduce the number of days they had to be at work each week, reducing travel costs and child-care and other costs. Back then we gave the nurses what they demanded, shame on us. Now they claim that acceding to their demands back then and letting them work long hours, has resulted in work-place stress for them.

Nurses claim that the awfulness of what they see and have to experience each day at work is causing them stress. If this is the case, then either they are completely unsuited to the work and cannot adopt a professional attitude and outlook to the environment they work in *or* their training and preparation for work *they* have chosen for themselves is inadequate. Do we hear similar tosh from doctors? I don’t remember hearing it, but I do remember hearing junior doctors being forced to work 48-hour shifts some years ago.

Other clinical professionals, psychologists, counsellors, etc. are required to undertake one-to-one clinical supervision with a senior professional outside of their place of employment on a regular basis, e.g. one hour's clinical supervision for each 40 hours clinical engagement. All clients are of course discussed anonymously. In the past, my employer paid for this, but I undertook the sessions in my own time. It gave me an opportunity to decompress from the work, to check my relationships with clients and colleagues, to examine issues like outcomes, treatment planning, etc. dispassionately with an experienced, disinterested 3rd party. Apparently, this is not  required of nurses and the extra money will take its place anyway, just like the wonderful panacea it seems to be for them.

A requirement to enable healthy engagement with colleagues is a weekly peer supervision meeting in the place of work. This is not a multi-disciplinary team meeting nor a change-of-shift hand-over meeting but an opportunity to raise any issues arising amongst and between peer professionals in an open forum. The focus is the work and the client in the context of the group in the room. Introducing issues arising in relation to peers not present is strictly forbidden as is discussing issues raised at the meeting outside of it. Some of my employers engaged an independent professional as the process owner/manager, someone who had no input (or 1st hand experience) of the content. A very useful tool for the development and maintenance of a healthy work environment, but if nurses were to use it might eat into the time nurses like to spend  discussing foreign holidays and car insurance at work while ignoring the suffering of patients. Money will of course fix these problems too. 

Listening to Marian on Sunday I was struck by the militarisation of nursing. People spoke about putting feet on the ground, presumably meaning recruiting more staff, a direct adoption of having “more boots on the ground in Fallujah” which meant invading a country. Nurses talk about being “on the frontline,” another military term. Nurses are not and have not been on the frontline ever and recently they’ve only been on the picket line. The only people on the frontline suffering and sometimes dying are patients and their families. Another military term adopted and misused in nursing is “triage.” In battlefield situations to triage injured soldiers is to divide them into three groups as follows:

1. Those with minor injuries, who with minimal treatment could return immediately to the front-line. This group was treated first

2. Seriously injured casualties who would survive with treatment, but who would require long convalescence or might not be able to return to the front-line to engage the enemy were treated next

3. Those with catastrophic, life-threatening/life-altering injuries who even with extensive treatment would probably die anyway, i.e. those casualties (not people, God forbid) who survived until everyone was treated, got medical / nursing / orderly attention last.

I’m not sure what desensitised uncaring being introduced these terms into nursing but they have a lot to answer for.

Those who died or who suffered unnecessarily consequential to nurses' greed will no doubt be dismissed as merely "collateral damage". On the Joe show yesterday a nurse's mother supporting her daughter's strike action said as much, "people are dying anyway." What a singularly callous outlook to have, but unsurprising in an atmosphere  of uncaring greed as highlighted by a picket-line placard bearer “SHOW US THE MONEY” shown on a TV news report.


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## Delboy (11 Feb 2019)

I think I would actually vote for the Troika to run Ireland for the 5years+ if such an option was available on the ballot paper at the next general election.
We are incapable of managing our own affairs under the current system


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## RETIRED2017 (11 Feb 2019)

Delboy said:


> I think I would actually vote for the Troika to run Ireland for the 5years+ if such an option was available on the ballot paper at the next general election.
> We are incapable of managing our own affairs under the current system


Never forget it is it is the private sector that is not able to look after themselves , I suspect The Troika would not be interesting,

Do you really think the Troika are interested in herding cats,


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## Leo (12 Feb 2019)

mathepac said:


> This number is frighteningly close to the 1,800 WTEs I stated are absent from work each year



It'll be interesting to see how quickly things return to normal this week. The fact that pretty much every out-patient appointment over the next day or so has been cancelled will help, but there was widespread facilitation of nurses who were rostered to be working these three days in switching their days off to non-strike days so that they wouldn't miss out on pay. Anyone in a hospital yesterday notice all the extra nurses milling around?


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## Leo (12 Feb 2019)

RETIRED2017 said:


> Never forget it is it is the private sector that is not able to look after themselves



If you mean 'look after themselves' in the sense of holding large sections of society to hostage purely in their own self-interest and to hell with the consequences, then yeah, you may have a point, but the private sector is bound by economic fundamentals and reality.


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## Deiseblue (12 Feb 2019)

I think there’s a good chance of the nurses accepting this offer.
The Labour Court as an independent arbitrator has recognised that nurses are underpaid and that recruitment and retention needs to be addressed.
From the Governments point of view they can argue that massive disruption of the health system has been avoided , that the pay element is somewhere around half of what he nurses asked for and that the recommendation does not breach the stability of the Lansdowne Road Agreement.
On the latter point I believe that they are sadly deluded as all Unions and particularly the teacher unions who did not sign up will now attempt to drive a coach and four through this Agreement


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## Purple (12 Feb 2019)

Deiseblue said:


> On the latter point I believe that they are sadly deluded as all Unions and particularly the teacher unions who did not sign up will now attempt to drive a horse and four through this Agreement


I find it bizarre that any person can be so gleeful about industrial unrest and the economic hardship which unsustainable pay increases for middle class State employees cause to the country as a whole and the poorest and most vulnerable in society in particular.

How can anyone who calls themselves a socialist be in favour of these massive transfers of wealth from the poor to the middle classes, especially anyone who is retired on a massive pension which they never earned and which is being paid for my mortgage holders and working people?


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## Leo (12 Feb 2019)

Deiseblue said:


> The Labour Court as an independent arbitrator has recognised that nurses are underpaid and that recruitment and retention needs to be addressed.



I don't believe the Labour Court has any such mandate, let alone competency.


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## Deiseblue (12 Feb 2019)

Well they certainly have the mandate from the Government in their role as part of the state’s industrial relations mechanisms and I’m quite sure they have the competency - indeed they have had plenty of practice


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## Leo (12 Feb 2019)

Deiseblue said:


> Well they certainly have the mandate from the Government in their role as part of the state’s industrial relations mechanisms and I’m quite sure they have the competency - indeed they have had plenty of practice



Their role is one of mediation, that is their sole function in such disputes. Value for money or worth play no part.


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## Deiseblue (12 Feb 2019)

But more importantly their role is to adjudicate in trade disputes which they have done here by reflecting on both parties submissions and thus issuing the appropriate recommendation.


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## Purple (12 Feb 2019)

Leo said:


> Their role is one of mediation, that is their sole function in such disputes. Value for money or worth play no part.


You're wasting your time.


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## Leo (12 Feb 2019)

Deiseblue said:


> But more importantly their role is to adjudicate in trade disputes which they have done here by reflecting on both parties submissions and thus issuing the appropriate recommendation.



As ever, and as is the nature of such mediation, they just arrive at a conclusion somewhere in the middle. I'm sure you'll agree that's a long way from...



Deiseblue said:


> The Labour Court as an independent arbitrator has recognised that nurses are underpaid


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## Firefly (12 Feb 2019)

mathepac said:


> Other clinical professionals, psychologists, counsellors, etc.



Great post.

Just on this though, whilst I think the vast majority of people appreciate the work that is performed by nurses up and down the country, nurses, to the best of my knowledge, do not diagnose nor do they make medical decisions. As such, to call them "medical professionals" or "clinical professions" is a stretch in my opinion.


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## Deiseblue (12 Feb 2019)

Sorry Leo , I disagree.
The Labour Court has examined the submissions of both parties and in an admittedly convoluted fashion have recommended a pay rise which to my concludes that the court feel that the nurses are underpaid currently


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## mathepac (12 Feb 2019)

Firefly said:


> As such, to call them "medical professionals" or "clinical professions" is a stretch in my opinion.


I agree that nurses are not medical professionals, and I don't believe I have ever referred to them as such. Graduate nurses have nursing degrees but they and other para-medics do work in clinical settings so they can correctly, in my view, be referred to generically as clinicians / health-care workers / care-givers.*

In the UK (and I think the US & Canada) there is a nursing grade referred to as nurse-practitioners who are trained and licensed to prescribe a limited number of drugs.  I don't think we have that grade here yet although nurses seem to be agitating for something like it.

* Wikipedia seems to agree with me here. Be still my beating heart!


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## Purple (12 Feb 2019)

mathepac said:


> clinicians / health-care workers / care-givers.


Clinician; _a doctor having direct contact with patients rather than being involved with theoretical or laboratory studies._
Nurses aren't clinicians.


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## mathepac (12 Feb 2019)

Clinician; noun. a physician or other qualified person who is involved in the treatment and observation of living patients, as distinguished from one engaged in research. a person who teaches or conducts sessions at a clinic.

Clinician definition: someone, such as a doctor, who has qualifications in an area of very skilled health work.

One takes ones dictionary and one's chances.


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## Leo (12 Feb 2019)

Deiseblue said:


> Sorry Leo , I disagree.
> The Labour Court has examined the submissions of both parties and in an admittedly convoluted fashion have recommended a pay rise which to my concludes that the court feel that the nurses are underpaid currently



You can disagree all you like, but their terms of reference do not allow them to carry out such any such assessment. If they did, there would surely be cases where they would recommend increments in excess of those sought, or even recommend pay cuts in the case of staff who were already being overpaid. But no, as you say, via convoluted mean they come up with a recommendation somewhere in the middle of current state and the demand.


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## Deiseblue (12 Feb 2019)

You also are more than welcome to your view.
The workplace relations website states:
“ The Labour Court is not a court of law . It operates as an industrial relations tribunal , hearing both sides in a case and then issuing a Recommendation setting out its opinion on the dispute and terms on which it should be settled . “
Indeed in the past they have recommended that 800 Eason’s staff accept pay cuts and equally recommended a pay cut for builders and recently overturned a 39k award to a HSE worker by the WRC.


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## Leo (12 Feb 2019)

Deiseblue said:


> Indeed in the past they have recommended that 800 Eason’s staff accept pay cuts



Very different scenario to a cohort of staff looking for a pay rise coming out with a recommendation to accept a pay cut. But perhaps that should give the government an idea, bring the nurses back to the Labour Court, provide the public accounts and show the current model is unsustainable!

Not sure how their overturning an award related to them determining what certain grades of staff should be paid.


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## Deiseblue (12 Feb 2019)

The crux of the matter is that based on the submissions by both sides the Labour Court decided that the nurses deserved a pay rise , hence the conclusion that they are currently underpaid .


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## becky (12 Feb 2019)

mathepac said:


> I agree that nurses are not medical professionals, and I don't believe I have ever referred to them as such. Graduate nurses have nursing degrees but they and other para-medics do work in clinical settings so they can correctly, in my view, be referred to generically as clinicians / health-care workers / care-givers.*
> 
> In the UK (and I think the US & Canada) there is a nursing grade referred to as nurse-practitioners who are trained and licensed to prescribe a limited number of drugs.  I don't think we have that grade here yet although nurses seem to be agitating for something like it.
> 
> * Wikipedia seems to agree with me here. Be still my beating heart!


We have a grade called Advance Nurse Practitioner. Pay  is Assistant Director of Nursing band 1.


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## Leo (13 Feb 2019)

Deiseblue said:


> Labour Court decided that the nurses deserved a pay rise



Again, I'm surprised you have such little understanding of the workings of the Labour Court. What they did was determine an outcome through mediation that both sides could agree on. What nurses deserve had nothing to do with it.


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## Deiseblue (13 Feb 2019)

Equally I'm surprised that you miss the fact that all three parties involved agree that a pay rise is warranted hence all parties agree that nurses are currently underpaid.


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## Leo (13 Feb 2019)

Deiseblue said:


> Equally I'm surprised that you miss the fact that all three parties involved agree that a pay rise is warranted hence all parties agree that nurses are currently underpaid.



I don't think we'll ever agree on this one, but the Labour Court have no authority to determine what is warranted.


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## Purple (13 Feb 2019)

Deiseblue said:


> Equally I'm surprised that you miss the fact that all three parties involved agree that a pay rise is warranted hence all parties agree that nurses are currently underpaid.


Where do you get the notion that the HSE ever accepted that a pay rise was warranted, or the Labour Court for that matter??
I know that Deiseblue has me on his ignore list (yes, that's a thing) so this is for other posters.


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## mathepac (21 Feb 2019)

The HSE nurses and their unions lied to us about their pay and here's the proof from a 2018 report, showing that entry-level nurses earn 20% more basic pay *before any allowances/special payments* than their colleagues in England.


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## mathepac (21 Feb 2019)

The conclusions in this July 2018 report also give the lie to many of the so-called compelling reasons given in support of the nurses' strike actions.  Facts mean nothing of course when you can hold those most vulnerable in our society to ransom.


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## beautfan (21 Feb 2019)

Word on the ground is they will not accept the deal.

Now I see the vote isn't until mid march so I'm assuming INMO know they have a bit to do to convince the members.


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## Purple (22 Feb 2019)

mathepac said:


> The conclusions in this July 2018 report also give the lie to many of the so-called compelling reasons given in support of the nurses' strike actions.  Facts mean nothing of course when you can hold those most vulnerable in our society to ransom.


When I open the link to at the bottom of the file you attached and open the website (https://www.rcn.org.uk/employment-and-pay/nhs-pay-scales-2016-17) the pay scales for the NHS nurses are far higher than listed on the chart.


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## mathepac (22 Feb 2019)

Are you looking at 2016-2017/England/Band 5 which I think is what they used for comparison?


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