# Advice on Wooden Windows



## BMD

Hi,

I am in the middle of a new build and I need to make a decision on wooden windows. I definitely want wood as I don't like the look of PVC or Aluclad. 

I have quotes from a number of suppliers for both double and triple glazed. These include the following;

High End: Nordan, Carlson, Harmon Vindeur, Rationel and Ecoglaze,
Middle Range: Roe window systems
Low End: Senator and Munster

I'm not convinced about senator so I have ruled them out but the cost difference between munster and those at the high end is too big to ignore, given the current economic situation.

Has anyone advice on who I should or shouldn't go with.

Also, some of these companies guarantees are dependent on having the outside of the windows painted (not nordan). I want to maintain the wood look outside.

Finally, is there any point in going for a triple glazed window (whole u value of 1.1) as opposed to a double glazed window (whole u value of 1.2)?

Any help would be appreciated


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## onq

You are required by law to build compliantly overall, not merely to choose between the lesser of two evils, so this is bigger than the window choice.
You will be completing in 2011 but in 2013 the standard to complete to will be Carbon Neutral, not the current standard and you would do well to bear thsi in mind.
You should have the specification for the windows from your architect or BER assessor - from whom you should obtain a cert for around €90 or so when the building is completed and file it safely away.

Let's assume you want to stick to the current standard.

Assuming the windows comply with the required specification you're balancing longevity against initial costs and costs in use.
This is a necessary triangle to make, because poor initial specification will lead to monies lost every year for the life of the building.
Also failing to build to carbon neutral standard now will put your house at a market disadvantage when you do come to sell it, eventually.

However if you intend to invest now and reap the rewards in lower running costs later, then you should consider building to carbon neutral or carbon plus standards now.

Hopefully some reader here will share their experiences of all the window types you mention so you can make an informed decision.
Beware of first time posters giving a glowing representation of one of the products - we have seen salespeople on AAM before.

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon                                                   as a defence or  support  -     in     and    of        itself  -         should        legal             action        be           taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in                                                   Real Life with rights  to         inspect     and       issue         reports    on     the                  matters    at           hand.


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## BMD

Thanks ONQ,

I will be meeting all the required standards but obviously some products are better than others.

Can you elaborate on the carbon neutral standards?


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## onq

Europe will be reaching for Carbon Neutral by 2018.
Our evironment minister has decided that we need to be five years ahead of Brussels on Carbon Neutral Buildings.

This would be difficult enough to acheive in a country where builders were in work and well up to speed on 2010 standards.
Some builders are still struggling to understand 2002 standards and the industry has contracted by 75%.

In general green agendas front load pain, just like the current budget - you pay more now for houses that will costs less to run over theri lifespan.
Some general information.

http://www.independent.ie/national-...-must--be-carbon-neutral-by-2013-1438627.html

BMD, I have inferred some things from your question.
I doubt you have had much priofessional advicve - you should not be building a house piecemeal.
You should have a comprehensive set of drawings and specifications that  are balanced in relation to all matters of compliace regarding the  building regulations currently in force.

There are huge benefits and savings to be made if you design the house properly.


ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon                                                    as a defence or   support  -     in     and    of        itself  -         should         legal             action        be           taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in                                                    Real Life with rights   to         inspect     and       issue         reports    on     the                   matters    at           hand.


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## threebedsemi

BMD,
While i dont wish to get into recommending one window supplied over the other, I would say the following:
munster joinery are generally dependable in terms of lead times and quality of product. They are not the most beautiful or well designed units, but may well be the best bet in terms of the 'standard' end of the market.
I have also recently specified nordan triple glazed windows (passive standard) and the windows and (quite large) doors are beautifully made, and while i did have a run in with the fitters, the matter was cleared up reasonably well.
in terms of the brand you choose, ask to visit a house which has them fitted, there is nothing like seeing and feeling the product in place before making your choice.

I have no ties to any window supplier.

As for double v triple glazing, one thing to consider (and there are many) is that if you are installing large windows/glazed doors, and hope to have a seating or dining area beside them, triple glazed units will have a considerably higher internal surface temperature than double glazed, thus avoiding the common 'shiver' effect which can become evident after sitting beside a large area of glazing on a cold evening.

onq
Im not sure of the value of a BER cert which has been prepared for €90? A properly considered one for even a small house should take three to five hours to prepare. A lot of the BER certs which I have seen in the past year should sadly only be used to light the fire.


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## onq

Agreed 3BS, but those prices are available at the moment and leading the OP towards that service may result in them seeing the value for it and perhaps paying a bit more for some detailed advice. The problem as I see it with self-builders is that they can fail to appreciate the complexity of designing houses and place their trust in suppliers of components, not even tradesmen, with foreseeable unfortunate results.

Good to have you back commenting BTW, haven't seen you in a while.

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon                                                     as a defence or    support  -     in     and    of        itself  -         should          legal             action        be           taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in                                                     Real Life with rights    to         inspect     and       issue         reports    on     the                    matters    at           hand.


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## BMD

ONQ...actually I have very good professional advice and a very detailed spec. It's still very important however to try and research everything that goes into your house as even experts can be wrong (just look at the banking and medical industries for evidence of this)

3BS, thank you for your advice re munster and nordan. The price difference between munster for 3G and nordan for 2G is ~€7,000, while the price difference between munster 3G and nordan 3G is ~€11,000

Munster's 3G has whole unit U value of 1.1
Nordan's 2G is 1.2, whilst their 3G is 0.9

Based on these details would you have any further advice...apart from the look of the windows is there anything else that warrants such a price difference?

I will go and look at the windows as you have recommended. Thanks


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## sally2007

Hi BMD,
We spent a lot of time earlier this year looking around at windows and were in the same position of yourselves wanting wooden windows and "nearly" did a deal with Nordan. However the two big "cons" with wooden windows turned us off - the cost and secondly, the maintenance required on them - it's well and good when we are in our thirties climbing ladders to do maintenance but not so sure abot that when we are in our sixties!!
In the end we went with Bonmahon Joinery in Waterford - sash windows with a cream woodgrain effect inside and outside - they look fantastic and briliant on heat retention!


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## threebedsemi

BMD
I dont have any further guidance than just to look at the windows in place in a house and make your judgement from there.

Regarding durability, I replaced the wooden windows in my own house last year, they were put in in 1959 and the frames were still perfect - the single glazing was getting a bit problematic though! Wooden windows require maintenance and repainting every 5-7 years on average, depending on exposure. It is not always reasonable to expect pvc windows to last for ever without mantainence, and trying to get a replacement hinge or fitting for say a 10 year old pvc window can be difficult.


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## Sconhome

There is a massive difference in the quality of windows out there. If I can help, a few things to look out for when comparing prices.

Most people look at the U-value and think thats a key indicator of performance and base decisions on this.

Some points will apply to PVC windows specifically as opposed to wood or alu-clad. 

 Security:


 Look for heavy duty hinges
 Look for interlocking grab tabs on the hinge side - to prevent vents being forced
 Look for multi point locking - shoot bolts top & bottom and minimum 4 point mushroom locks which are opposed to each other
Look for a two stage lock position on the opening for night ventilation.
 
Frame:


PVC frames should be reinforced
reinforcing steel should be insulated to prevent thermal bridging
look for all stainless steel fittings; hinges, locks, guide bars, restrictor etc.
minimum mild steel with marine type coating
frame fixings should be high tensile steel.
air tight foam should be flexible to move with the frame / building. Rigid foam will compress and create air gaps (tiny ones) which lead to leaks.
gaskets should be welded / glued to the frame. With PVC they should be welded to a hot frame during the extrusion process. Do not accept gaskets that have been inserted by a bored technician on a production line!
Glass:


double glazed will be argon filled
triple glazed will be krypton filled. All new windows should be triple glazed. Spend the money now for the future saving.
spacing bars should be insulated to prevent thermal bridging.
look for low iron (low FE) glass on outer panes - high iron content prevents solar radiation from heating the interior air
look for low emmissive glass (low-E) to internal panes to keep the heat gained by ocnvection within the room.
Personally I would go with timber over any other type simply for the beauty of the product.

PVC is great for ease of maintenance. WIth PVC get high calcium and zinc content PVC, do not get cheap recycled PVC this will discolour!

There are more points, I'll post them later.


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## BMD

I'm interested to see that triple glazed should be krypton filled...every quote I have got for 3G is with argon....

I see that Dermot Bannon fella on RTE's room to improve always uses munster....would anyone consider this a good sign of their quality?


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## hippy1975

BMD, you clearly care about quality so I would strike Munster off the list and take them out of the running. They're bog standard PVC windows are prob fine but my parents got their teak windows into new house 5 years ago and I think even they know it was a big mistake, the quality of the timber is very poor, need much much more maintenance than the old teak windows in their old house, the handles are the cheapest and nastiest looking things you ever saw - maybe there are other options for handles but if it was my business I would not even have these yokes in stock.  

Sorry I can't be much help on what to go for, myself I went with timber-colured PVC sash sliders from senator and I love them, I wanted maintenance-free.  I've seen some beautiful timber windows from rationel.


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## BMD

Thanks Hippy....I'd like to go with Nordan but the price is a bit prohibitive. I'm attracted by their 10 year guarantee and also the fact that I am building on the side of a mountain

Based on your feedback and some lingering doubts I am coming close to ruling out Munster

Ecoglaze are the most competitive of the high end so I'll try and find out more about them


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## Sconhome

BMD Krypton is the better gas but does not perform as well in the larger spaces in double glazing. 

I would concur with your conclusions. Run from the one and go with the other. Especially when the guarantee is not fragmented ie dependent on one or the other of a number of factors.


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## BMD

Sconhome,

Thank you very much for your useful comments. I was speaking with a very reliable and experienced trademan over the weekend and he was able to give me a lot of reassurance wrt MJ (he said that their product/service in the last two years is very different to that provided during the boom) so I may not rule them out entirely.

I will have a look at the costs and then make a decision. I would like to have the  nordan windows but also need to keep the mortgage down.

ONQ, threebedsemi, hippy and sconhome, thank you all for your help on this one...much appreciated

I hope I make the right choice


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## Sconhome

I would agree that there have been massive improvements, there was no option as they have to compete to stay in the market. There still remains a massive difference in quality though. 

Refer to the points above and compare on the qualities of the windows themselves. Price will be a big temptation, but quality will stand the test of time, especially with guarantees.

Best of luck.


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## Brigid

Hi I know that this post is just about ended but for the benefit of BMD we got a quote from Careyglass for wooden frames and the quote was even more competitive than MJ.  I have not looked into the quality as of yet but will do so using Sconhome's pointers above.  I think with Aroko you dont have to paint but can oil them instead.  Also you can get the frames so that they can effectively turn inside out to maintain the outside so it seems that you dont have to think in terms of ladders. that was a worry for us as well.


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## onq

Sconhome said:


> There is a massive difference in the quality of windows out there. If I can help, a few things to look out for when comparing prices.
> 
> Most people look at the U-value and think thats a key indicator of performance and base decisions on this.
> 
> Some points will apply to PVC windows specifically as opposed to wood or alu-clad.
> 
> Security:
> 
> 
> Look for heavy duty hinges
> Look for interlocking grab tabs on the hinge side - to prevent vents being forced
> Look for multi point locking - shoot bolts top & bottom and minimum 4 point mushroom locks which are opposed to each other
> Look for a two stage lock position on the opening for night ventilation.
> 
> Frame:
> 
> 
> PVC frames should be reinforced
> reinforcing steel should be insulated to prevent thermal bridging
> look for all stainless steel fittings; hinges, locks, guide bars, restrictor etc.
> minimum mild steel with marine type coating
> frame fixings should be high tensile steel.
> air tight foam should be flexible to move with the frame / building. Rigid foam will compress and create air gaps (tiny ones) which lead to leaks.
> gaskets should be welded / glued to the frame. With PVC they should be welded to a hot frame during the extrusion process. Do not accept gaskets that have been inserted by a bored technician on a production line!
> Glass:
> 
> 
> double glazed will be argon filled
> triple glazed will be krypton filled. All new windows should be triple glazed. Spend the money now for the future saving.
> spacing bars should be insulated to prevent thermal bridging.
> look for low iron (low FE) glass on outer panes - high iron content prevents solar radiation from heating the interior air
> look for low emmissive glass (low-E) to internal panes to keep the heat gained by ocnvection within the room.
> Personally I would go with timber over any other type simply for the beauty of the product.
> 
> PVC is great for ease of maintenance. WIth PVC get high calcium and zinc content PVC, do not get cheap recycled PVC this will discolour!
> 
> There are more points, I'll post them later.



Great post Sconhome.

Are you going to post more points like this or is the the lot?

ONQ.


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## onq

BMD said:


> Sconhome,
> 
> Thank you very much for your useful comments. I was speaking with a very reliable and experienced trademan over the weekend and he was able to give me a lot of reassurance wrt MJ (he said that their product/service in the last two years is very different to that provided during the boom) so I may not rule them out entirely.
> 
> I will have a look at the costs and then make a decision. I would like to have the  nordan windows but also need to keep the mortgage down.
> 
> ONQ, threebedsemi, hippy and sconhome, thank you all for your help on this one...much appreciated
> 
> I hope I make the right choice



Yeah I saw some MJ stuff recently and it seemed okay.

Hard to tell unless you can experience it in use though.

ONQ.


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## Sconhome

onq said:


> Are you going to post more points like this or is the the lot?
> 
> ONQ.




Sure it's taken me nearly 6 months to build up to this one!


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## NHG

What totally amazes me that we have had 20 very good posts on this topic and nobody has mentioned one of the most important points on timber/wooden windows is the timber that they are goint to be made from.

Iroko is the highest grade of teak that comes into Ireland (which is quiet scarce in supply at present), it is the one that is most suitable to the climate that we live in.

We have a damp atmosphere whereas on the continent they have dry crisp atmosphere therefore different timber species preform differently in different parts of the world.

So please please check which type of timber is being supplied in the quotes that you have before you decide.

RedDeal/Softwood will have a lifespan of aprox 10-15 years if very sheltered and very well cared for (if you wish to have the natural pine look it will only last for about 5 -10 years before turning very dark.

Hardwood (iroko) will be still there in 30 years +.

Remember it is an investment you are making and that windows and doors are the living part of your home - you look out through, open and close the windows each day and open and close the doors to get in and out of your home each day - invest wisely.

Have a read of the Hardwoods and Softwoods brochure in the attached website, it makes interesting reading. We must all educate ourselves and spend our hard earned money wisely.

[broken link removed]


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## Patrick2008

Maybe ONQ can comment on this but I was talking to an Architect recently and he said it is better to have north facing glazing triple glazed and all other elevations double glazed in terms of cost savings.


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## BMD

I would definitely be interested to hear more about the type of wood...MJ predominantly use iroko whereas nordan, ecoglaze etc. use nordic pine or spruce


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## amh

Patrick2008, 
I too heard that it is better to have triple glazing on the north facing side of a house, and also slightly of topic, that if you plant evergreen trees on the north and western sides with decidous trees planted on the south and eastern side this will make a difference to the amount of energy needed to maintain heat within a house. The evergreen provide shelter during the winter and the decidious trees with their leaves gone allow your house to make the most of the short winter sun. There does seem to be some logic to it but I'm not sure if there would be significant savings but possibly.

amh


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## threebedsemi

Its pretty easy to find out if triple glazing on the north facade (or any facade) will save you money, just have your BER assessor input it into the BER model he has made for your design. It is fairly easy to swap window types in the software and each change will give you a different heat load, etc.

BER certs are not something to do at the end of a build 'because you have to', the software should be used to evaluate every alteration which you are considering, be it insulation levels, glazing, heating system, etc. It is an invaluable, and fairly accurate, design tool if used in the proper way. I may start a thread on this point when i get around to it, if no one else does first.

Here is a table outlining the recommended timbers for Ireland, for various uses:

[broken link removed]


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## BMD

Hi Brigid,

I am going to get a quote from carey....seen them being used on grand designs recently (programme from belfast) and the windows looked great

Regarding the tilt and turn windows...my only problem with these is that they open inwards and therefore are a nuisance when it comes to having vertical blinds etc. (I'm not going to spend a fortune on windows and then screw blinds into them).....maybe there is another solution out there????

Thanks


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## BMD

I got a quote from carey joinery and met with their sales person. The quote was very competitive and the meeting was very informative. Very good advice on timber choice, glazing options etc. and not trying to over sell the more expensive products.

Definitely worth serious consideration IMO


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## NHG

As far as I know they use mahoganny/sapelle, iroko would have a much better lifespan if you can get it.


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## Brigid

That is interesting BMD - didn't meet the sales person but the quote came in about 8K below MJ.  I did speak to them over the phone and the person assured me that the wood came from sustainable sources and that they checked up on that side of things regularly - and I understand that they also do use Iroko.  they have recently opened up a showroom in Cork I think.


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## BMD

They use Iroko or treated pine...whatever you prefer


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## onq

A word of warning about using unvarnished, unpainted Iroco on exposed sites or marine environments. 

Although its classed as a hardwood and has been compared to teak I have seen problems arise in certain cases.

It supposedly has certain carconigenic properties:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iroko_%28hardwood%29 

Mind you, I wasn't aware toxic qualities of beech, birch, oak or pine or redwood either:

http://www.degutopia.co.uk/degutoxic.htm

Some days it seems that nothing is "safe".

No doubt all the carpenters reading this will head off for an MRI scan tomorrow.  

ONQ. 

[broken link removed]  

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken. 
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at hand.


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## Sconhome

Never mind that, wait until there is a serious problem with all the MDF dust & residue in future years. A DIY'ers saviour to many problems except it is the next Asbestosis. 

On topic, Carey's are probably the CARLSBERG of window suppliers at the moment. They provide most of the glazing units in the country and their sister joinery company has a pretty good reputation on its own. 

IMO they are the yardstick for window providers.


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## onq

Hi Sconhome,

Nasty to hear about the potential respiratory problems with MDF dust, especially since I have never see it being collected safetly even in a workshop situation, just operatives with masks.

And of course when the stuff is being sut in back gardens for house extensions near other back gardens where children are playing, its just let blow on the wind.

ONQ. 

[broken link removed]  

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon  as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be  taken. 
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in  Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at  hand.


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## BMD

Hi Sconhome,

I want to get some advice from you regarding window sizes and how they can/should be hung.

We have spec's for a few windows which are 1200 mm wide and between 1300-1500 high.

Some of the window suppliers say that they can do this with a top hung casement, however others say that the dimensions are too big for the hinges and that the only options would be tilt/turn or to put a mullion down the middle and split the window in two.

I would appreciate any feedback you might have on this


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## NHG

The window suppliers are correct.  The design will bepend on the style of the house, give us more details and we might be able to help. ie is it two store, bungalow, modern design or traditional etc.

There is alot of weight in the double glazed units thus the hinges would not be able to hold it up plus a window of those dimensions with no break up would not look great unless ultra modern.

You could ask for "Load Pro Hinges" if going for big sashes, they are designed for the extra weight, naturally enough they are dearer.


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## BMD

The house is a two storey, going for a traditional farm house look but not with sash windows as airtightness is a must for HRV system. The large windows are both on the 1st and ground floor.

In general we are going for side swing casement window with a bar across the middle to resemble traditional sash windows.

I am a little confused as to why some suppliers say they can go with top swing while others say the the window would be too heavy for top swing and therefore it would have to be tilt/turn or a a mullion 

If we were to split some of the windows so that the top half opened but the bottom half remained fixed, what would be the minimum size the top half would have to be regarding fire safety? 

At the end of the day fire safety will be my primary concern and will go with a tilt/turn if necessary however I'm not a fan of them because of the impact on blinds/window boards etc.

The windows will be triple glazed


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## NHG

Fire safety First:

All bedrooms need a clear unobstructed opening of 450mm x 450mm MIMIMUM. The bottom of the window opening should be not more than 1100mm and not less than 800mm above the floor (600mm in the case of a rooflight).

Design:
Your house is traditonal, but unfortunately your sizes don't suit the traditional look windows, pity your architect did'nt have the foresight for this problem, I have seen it so many times and it is such a shame for style traditional houses.

I would imagine that a french style window would suit you best, divided down the centre with a vertical glazing mullion, you could have this with a centre mullion or if you wish to have a slimmer effect to the centre go with no centre mullion. 

A window with a top hung sash will look wrong with the dimensions that you have.

PM me if you wish.


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## BMD

Hi NHG,

Thanks for this. Our design is very much bespoke in that the design allows for every room in the house to have a south facing window.

I may not have been specific enough, the front of our house (north facing) is very traditional looking with small windows, however we have quite a lot of glazing to the back (south facing) which includes bi-fold doors, roof lights, large windows etc. to make the best use of the sun and also to take full advantage of the great views.

The larger windows to the back look good and I wouldn't compromise the other aspects (sunlight/views) to accommodate a completely traditional house with small windows throughout.

Based on the information regarding the fire regulations we will probably have to go with the french style windows or a tilt/turn

Perhaps I will PM you with my window schedule to get your advice


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## aulita

Any salesman, saying, that ALL of their windows/doors have the SAME U value - tells lies. You are told the U value of the glass unit, but not the U value of the entire product. 

Every window/door from the same manufacture has different U value, depending on size and amount of openings.

You should be given the U value for your project and breakdown for each product.

p.s. proper fitting usually helps as well.


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## onq

Patrick2008 said:


> Maybe ONQ can comment on this but I was talking to an Architect recently and he said it is better to have north facing glazing triple glazed and all other elevations double glazed in terms of cost savings.



Patrick,

My apologies for missing your post.

I am not subscribed to any threads - I usually just look at the boards regularly and catch the questions as they arise.

The question you ask is a a bit of a loaded one because while you can certainly make the argument on solar exposure, there are many other factors to consider.

However winter is the time that glazing insulation pays for itself and while some solar gain is available that might justify a lesser specification to the south, heat costings doesn't rely on window specification alone - house design plays an important part.

After the sun goes down - which depending of local overshadowing and topography can be for as much as 18 hours a day or more, window specification doesn't seem to count for as much it is the housing weatherproofing and sealing, building plan proportion and orientation, prevailing wind, exposure/sheltering elements on site and the ambient temperature in the locality that matters.

We live on a hill and the temperature can drop up to two degrees between us and houses in the town below.
We are also on the north facing part of the hill with two story houses uphill and to the rear of us restricting our available direct south light in the winter months.
Previously we lived on the south face of a quarry and we had marvellous south light all your around, assuming the sky was cloudless, and even when it was cloudy there was significant solar gain.

So let's consider your window specification vs location proposal.

The winter is the time when increased insulation specification comes into its own.
It is also the time when there is least sunlight, perhaps only 75% of the day is lit at all in the depth of winter.
This winter we have seen -3 and -4 where we are - unheard of previously during the daytime - and dense cloud cover seriously reducing the amount of solar gain available.

But with glazing the amount of heat getting out is at least as important as the amount of heat being allowed in.
So at night in minus 8 (!) bigger windows of any specification let out more heat than smaller ones, and double glazing lets our more heat than single glazing, all else being equal.

As I posted previously on this thread, you can sink your money into high performing components, and yet not acheive as much savings as you could by good design.

In the present case, yes you could install triple glazing to the north elevation.
But you could also design the house to eliminate most of the windows that face north and by simply omitting hi-spec north facing windows you could save a fortune AND ensure the house retains more heat.

I hope that sheds some light (sic) on the subject for you and thanks for asking 


ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon                                                    as a defence or   support  -     in     and    of        itself  -         should         legal             action        be           taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in                                                    Real Life with rights   to         inspect     and       issue         reports    on     the                   matters    at           hand.


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## bmm

Sorry for resurrecting an old thread, but its relevant to my question. It's 5 years since people gave their opinions , now the market has moved on. U-values have dropped and some companies are now claiming 0.4 U value for some products.

Careyglass no longer have a Joinery(closed one year ago) so are out of the equation.

Interested to hear from someone who has purchased Aluclad sliding door from MJ or similar and whether they are happy with the product/service/installation ?


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## NewBuild

I'm very interested in this too. We're looking at triple glazed aluclad, most recently visited the Vindr and Nordan showrooms. Wasn't as impressed with Vindr as I expected to be. Nordan seem to be a top of the range product, but that could have been down to a better salesman.

Nordan are quoting 0.82 average u-value for their 3G, 1.2 for their 2G.
Vindr are about 0.9 for their 3G and I think 1.4 or 1.5 for their 2G. It was very hard to get a straight answer from the guy! 

Looking forward to hearing some feedback on suppliers. Thanks


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