# "Banks want State to put Mortgage Strugglers into penury"



## Wishes (10 Jun 2012)

http://www.independent.ie/national-...-mortgage-strugglers-into-penury-3133762.html

Whats everybody's thoughts on this?


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## fobs (11 Jun 2012)

"What person in their sane mind would work for 40, or in many cases these days 60, hours a week for nothing more than social welfare?
"The banks cannot have thought through the implications of this stance."

That quote sums it up for me!


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## truthseeker (11 Jun 2012)

fobs said:


> "What person in their sane mind would work for 40, or in many cases these days 60, hours a week for nothing more than social welfare?
> "The banks cannot have thought through the implications of this stance."
> 
> That quote sums it up for me!



The Jobbridge scheme expects just this - with an extra 50 euro on top.

If banks decided to impose this on struggling mortgage holders it would make even more sense for them to stop working and go on social welfare, then they would get assistance with the mortgage, social welfare payment itself plus associated extras like medical cards and they wouldnt have to work 40 or 60 hours a week. Or theyd just jump country and post back the keys. Completely regressive idea.


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## Brendan Burgess (11 Jun 2012)

I presume that this is a reference to the Personal Insolvency Arrangement or the Debt Settlement Arrangement.

After 5 years, the borrowers' unsecured debts will be written off and their mortgage may be written down.  

That is a huge concession.  I don't know what a fair amount to live on should be for those five years, but they certainly should not be going on holidays and sending their children to private schools.  There has to be real financial sacrifice in exchange for debt write down.

It's a pity that the politicians don't have the guts to stand up and say this.


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## primrose (11 Jun 2012)

Personally I would agree to this. Many of us who borrowed are actually after paying the mortgage are left with a figure quite similar to this 188 per week to live on and this is to include petrol costs to get to work. Why should the rest of us who have borrowed this debt, I with a mortgage of 300K and have never missed a repayment in 8 years with 1 income coming in with a family of 4, expect that others can live on excess of this and get a write down on their debt.  
To me it seems very unfair that anyone can get a debt writedown or write off irrespective of their income or lack of it for that matter. We took this debt on without cohersion, times are tough I agree but simply for anyone to get a fresh start debt free after a few years without feeling the pinch is wrong.  
Saying that I would not want anyone to be homeless but if someones circumstances change ie get a job win the lottery, get willed an inheritance in the future, we the tax payers should expect moneies owing to be returned.

Otherwise we would all be going down this route.


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## Wishes (11 Jun 2012)

primrose said:


> Personally I would agree to this. Many of us who borrowed are actually after paying the mortgage are left with a figure quite similar to this 188 per week to live on and this is to include petrol costs to get to work.



Primrose, I was just about to post the very same thing.  I am living on a hell of a lot less than €188 per week, after I pay mortgage (interest only).  The surplus leaves me to cover petrol, utilities and food.


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## Wishes (11 Jun 2012)

Brendan Burgess said:


> After 5 years, the borrowers' unsecured debts will be written off and their mortgage may be written down.



Hi Brendan,

This is something I still don't grasp!  Over the past 12 months and more I've been speaking to debt management companies, insolvency experts and accountants who have all advised me to go bankrupt.  

I work a part time job and have a new business up and running.  I pay interest on my mortgage, have arranged payment plans for my unsecured debt and yet I am being advised to go bankrupt in the UK.

Why, if unsecured debt will probably be written off??


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## Artemis (11 Jun 2012)

Surely the same rule should apply to senior bankers, NAMA clients, Senior Central bankers, senior government officials and politicians. The tax payer is currently paying for their incompetency.

Personally, I am in the process of handing back the keys and telling the bank to summons me to court. I would prefer to deal with the courts than the bank. I have waited too long for the PI legislation and I am already living in poverty. At least the court will give me clarity. 

It seems the bigger contribution you made to the current mess, the less responsibility you take.


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## Wishes (11 Jun 2012)

Hi Artemis,

Will you stay in Ireland when you hand the keys bank?  I am going to hang on in their intil the PI legislation.


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## Brendan Burgess (11 Jun 2012)

primrose said:


> To me it seems very unfair that anyone can get a debt writedown or write off irrespective of their income or lack of it for that matter.



Hi Primrose

Just to clarify a few points. 

The legislation is not published yet, so we don't reallly know what will be in it.

It's likely that the banks will be able to veto proposals unless the outcome is fair for the borrower and the lender. 

Whatever happens, it will be difficult to qualify for  a debt writeoff or writedown.  I don't expect that many will qualify. 

The problem with a 5 year proposal where the person has to live on €180 a week, is that it is very likely to fail - the borrower needs to have some incentive to stick to it. 

But it also depends on the length of the repayment period. If it's €180 per week for a year, then it would probably succeed. 

It's a very difficult balancing act.


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## Brendan Burgess (11 Jun 2012)

Artemis said:


> Personally, I am in the process of handing back the keys and telling the bank to summons me to court. I would prefer to deal with the courts than the bank. I have waited too long for the PI legislation and I am already living in poverty. At least the court will give me clarity.



I appreciate your frustration, but I would think you are better holding off until the PI legislation is published. There may be a requirement to act in good faith. If you just throw back the keys, then you may not be able to avail of it.

Have you tried to get the lender's agreement to a voluntary sale?  A voluntary, ordered sale is likely to produce the best outcome for both parties. You may have to threaten to hand back the keys to get their agreement to this. 

Brendan


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## commuter2011 (11 Jun 2012)

Firstly, let me say that yes I am in major negative equity to the tune of approx €150K, so far have managed to pay my mortgage payment in full for the last 4 years since I took out the mortgage.  However, god knows what the future holds with regards to me or my partners jobs.

I partly agree with the banks (and Brendan) that yes people should not be going on holidays etc etc while looking for a debt write off.

However, this works both ways - when you see the likes of the big developers and bankers and business men living the high life, holidaying abroad, able to transfer property to other family members...... When you see politicians getting away with owing €2million Vat, bankrupt business men living the high life in Poland for the footie, people owing millions to the banks going on holidays regularly etc etc while making no effort to repay their loans, it kinda sticks in your throat.

I personally don't have €188 a week to live off after paying my mortgage, other loans etc but I have made major sacrifices with regards holidays (no holidays in 4 years), no clothes shopping etc, shopping in lidl every week and while I am quite willing to do this to pay my debts, it makes me sick when the people who owe millions can get away with living the high life!!!!!

I know loads of people on interest only that still manage a few holidays a year, changing cars, eating out every week - I have sacrificed all this to pay my mortgage but these people on interest only will probably secure a debt write off because they have a history of being on interest only.

If everyone that owes money is going to be made live on €188 per week, this should count for everyone who owes money, across all classes of society.


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## demoivre (11 Jun 2012)

commuter2011 said:


> Firstly, let me say that yes I am in major negative equity to the tune of approx €150K, so far have managed to pay my mortgage payment in full for the last 4 years since I took out the mortgage.  However, god knows what the future holds with regards to me or my partners jobs.
> 
> I partly agree with the banks (and Brendan) that yes people should not be going on holidays etc etc while looking for a debt write off.
> 
> ...



Who's the fool ?


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## commuter2011 (11 Jun 2012)

demoivre said:


> Who's the fool ?



Yeah, maybe I am a fool.........for paying my debts to the best of my ability and not expecting the taxpayer to bear the cost.

Its a good job everyone doesn't think like you or else Ireland would be in a worst state than it is now.......if that's even possible.


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## Artemis (11 Jun 2012)

Wishes, I will stay in Ireland and encourage the bank to make me  bankrupt if we cannot agree a deal on the balance. I am willing to make a  payment to the bank for the next 5 years but I do expect to live a  little above social welfare. It costs money to travel to work, look  presentable, maintain a home, ect. 

Many SW recipients, receive many extras and plenty of nixes. What the bank proposes is a form of slavery. 

The next proposal will be a concentration camp or conscription to a  chain gang to build the Central Bank's new HQ on the Anglo site..


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## marfsmal (12 Jun 2012)

A person I spoke with from Mabs told me that the PI legislation won't be coming in now until end of the year.


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## terrontress (12 Jun 2012)

€188 a week is loads. I'd be delighted with that.


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## coleman (12 Jun 2012)

Firstly I have not read any posts besides this one:
"What person in their sane mind would work for 40, or in many cases these days 60, hours a week for nothing more than social welfare?
"The banks cannot have thought through the implications of this stance."

I don't know Fobs. But maybe, just maybe the banks are in cuckoo land??


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## coleman (12 Jun 2012)

Ok - after reading all the various posts.....they are....no wonder the report was plugged back....


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## coleman (12 Jun 2012)

So far we have been told the following:

There will be jobs/security/stability

NONE of this has happened yet. Do you believe that they (doesn't matter who they are is, as long as they do it) will do it?

That is the crux of it all - will they do it??


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## Sesed (6 Jul 2012)

If it is a couple, would it be 188x2 = 376 a week after mortgage? It's approx 1616 a calandar month?

Not saying I agree, but it might be fairer to have some sort of a line - all people in arrears / struggling should be left with X amount minimum after the mortgage.


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