# Crayon/Marker marks: does tenant have a right to ask me to redecorate the room?



## frescoflyer (8 Dec 2007)

Hi,

I am a landlord of a property in Donegal.

I purchased a new house in 2004 which was fully decorated and furnished. If I may say so, it was kitted out to the best of standards anyone would have been happy with. Tenants (one family from Ghana, 2 parents, now 3 kids) moved in. Contracts signed etc.

Over the years, several requests have been made by my tenant which I have fulfilled, i.e side fence to keep kids in, garden shed to store extras. Any problems / normal breakages I have sorted as promptly as possible.
I have not increased the rent in that time.

Recently, don't ask me how, they called reporting a crack in the bottom of the bath which was leaking through to the ceiling below. This was fortunately covered by insurance which was all covered. This is where the fun begins!

When recently visiting my tenant to check the repair work, I noticed that the sittingroom had alot of crayon / marker on the walls which I suspect the kids did. She has asked me to redecorate the room (at minimum) before Christmas. 

Considering they have been in the house 4 years, does she have a right to ask me to decorate the room?

Growing up myself in a house of 6 kids, we never scribbled on walls nor did my parents have to repaint on the frequency. I have rented myself and believe this request / damage can be taken from the deposit.

What are your thoughts on this?

Cheers,

Fresco


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## sam h (8 Dec 2007)

*Re: Tenants rights?*

I would not consider crayon and markers to be normal wear and tear, so really they should be responsible, however, if they moved out next week, you would have to repaint.  I had a similar experience & we agreed to split the cost of doing it (plus I got the full reciept so I could claim it back on tax).  I made it clear that this offer was only for the one room or else I reckoned they would be after me to do the whole house!  The reason I did it this way was that I didn't want a botch job done by the tenant which would cost me more to remedy afterwards. 

I reckon you have been too  nice to them by sorting out problems that you were not responsible for (the fence, the bath, shed) and you replaced breakages that they should have to pay for.  Plus you haven't raised the rent in 4 years.  They probably see you as a soft touch.  Renting is a business and it is important to make sure you know who is responsible for what and ensure you stick to it!

Whatever you decide to do, I would use the discussion as an opportunity to raise the rent, I find it better to raise it by a small amount every year rather than one big increase.


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## DonKing (9 Dec 2007)

*Re: Tenants rights?*



sam h said:


> I had a similar experience & we agreed to split the cost of doing it (plus I got the full reciept so I could claim it back on tax).



You made a false return to the taxman then?


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## Stifster (9 Dec 2007)

The tenant should paying for the redecoration.

You can deduct it from the deposit.


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## DonKing (9 Dec 2007)

frescoflyer said:


> When recently visiting my tenant to check the repair work, I noticed that the sittingroom had alot of crayon / marker on the walls which I suspect the kids did. She has asked me to redecorate the room (at minimum) before Christmas.
> 
> Considering they have been in the house 4 years, does she have a right to ask me to decorate the room?
> 
> Fresco



Considering they have been in the house 4 years now I don't think it is unreasonable for them to expect a repaint. Even if the kids hadn't scribbled on the walls, I would expect that high use areas would be looking a bit grubby. How often would you decorate your own house?






frescoflyer said:


> Growing up myself in a house of 6 kids, we never scribbled on walls nor did my parents have to repaint on the frequency. I have rented myself and believe this request / damage can be taken from the deposit.
> 
> Fresco



Well I've 3 kids and the.ve all scirbbled on the walls. I've just finished painting the Halss/stairs and landing for Christmas and I've seen my 2 year old's handmarks are starting on the wall again.

I'm sure you can get a painter cheap up in Donegal. Would your tenants do the painting themselves if you supplied the paint and materials? Even if it states that you are responsibke for painting in your lease, they may not have a problem doing it themselves


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## DonKing (9 Dec 2007)

Stifster said:


> The tenant should paying for the redecoration.
> 
> You can deduct it from the deposit.



If this went to the PRTB for arbitration, I would imagine the tenant would have strong case for redecoration after 4 years of tenacy


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## Stifster (9 Dec 2007)

DonKing said:


> If this went to the PRTB for arbitration, I would imagine the tenant would have strong case for redecoration after 4 years of tenacy



Not for redocrating their own damage. The tenant has specifically asked for the one room to be redecorated. I'm assuming that this is to cover up the damage done.


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## DonKing (9 Dec 2007)

Stifster said:


> Not for redocrating their own damage. The tenant has specifically asked for the one room to be redecorated. I'm assuming that this is to cover up the damage done.




I don't think it is unreasonable to expect a sitting room to be redecorated after 4 years. 

Just because the tenants toddlers have got creative with the crayola's doesn't mean that the landlord is released of his duties.


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## Stifster (9 Dec 2007)

The tenant is obliged not to cause the property to deteriorate beyond normal wear and tear and to make good any damage in excess of that.

You could argue the toss over whether being there for 4 years implied that the landlord should repaint if there was no damage but that is not the case here.


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## aircobra19 (10 Dec 2007)

I guess it depends if you want to keep the tenants. Weight up 4yrs of rent (hassle free?) vs the cost of repainting. 
Hardly going to cost a fortune is it. 
While they may be reponsible for the drawing, its really very little to complain about. Consider the bigger picture.


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## ClubMan (10 Dec 2007)

frescoflyer said:


> Recently, don't ask me how, they called reporting a crack in the bottom of the bath which was leaking through to the ceiling below. This was fortunately covered by insurance which was all covered. This is where the fun begins!


How did the crack in the bath arise?


> When recently visiting my tenant to check the repair work, I noticed that the sittingroom had alot of crayon / marker on the walls which I suspect the kids did.


Do you mean that these were definitely caused by the sitting tenants - and most likely the children? Or could they have been caused by previous tenants?


> She has asked me to redecorate the room (at minimum) before Christmas.


I'm not a landlord but this sounds unreasonable to me especially just coming up to _Xmas_.

Reading between the lines I wonder if you are not happy more generally with the sitting tenants and maybe considering replacing them? On the other hand maybe they are not the worst?


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## kiwifruit (10 Dec 2007)

I take it that Donking has never been a landlord.

Cause if he had been he wouldnt be spouting on like he has.. A landlord isnt there to be at the beck n call of every little "task" a tenant requires.

Iam a landlord and i would have no problem letting the tenant repaint the room,at his/her own expense. Its crazy to expect the landlord paint the room because the tenants kids scribbled on the walls. Landlords are required to repair faults with the property,scribbled walls does not come under faults.

I also think the landlord here has gone to great lenghts already to satisfy the tenants,ie..shouldnt the tenants have seen that there was no shed or fencing before they moved into the property, so asking the landlord after they moved in to add some more stuff is obscene. If last summer was a good one would they have asked for a BBQ??
One last time.......DO NOT PAINT the room/house for them,if the tenant wants it done that badly let them do it themselves..


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## delgirl (10 Dec 2007)

frescoflyer said:


> Over the years, several requests have been made by my tenant which I have fulfilled, i.e side fence to keep kids in, garden shed to store extras. Any problems / normal breakages I have sorted as promptly as possible.
> I have not increased the rent in that time.
> 
> Recently, don't ask me how, they called reporting a crack in the bottom of the bath which was leaking through to the ceiling below. This was fortunately covered by insurance which was all covered. This is where the fun begins!


No offence, but it sounds as though they see you as a bit of a soft touch - they obviously damaged the bath (did you ask them how it got cracked?) and you promptly repaired it and the requests for fence, shed, other breakages etc.

I don't think it's reasonable or an 'expression of their creatitivity' for children to draw on walls - we never did as children and my child would never have done it either.

Is the paint on the living room wall washable? If so, I would ask them to wash off the crayon themselves since the damage was inflicted by the kids.

If it's not washable paint, I would agree to have the living room painted with washable paint, but would make it very clear that if they damage it again, they will have to cover the cost of repainting themselves or the cost will be deducted from their deposit on departure.

You need to be very clear about what is acceptable wear and tear and what is not. I give new tenants a sheet attached to the lease titled 'Common reasons for deductions from your deposit' and I go though it with them before signing the lease, just to be absolutely clear.

Sit down with them and explain what's acceptable wear and tear and what's not - maybe they just think you're responsible for everything that 'goes wrong' including the damage their children cause?


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## Stifster (10 Dec 2007)

Janey mack, everyone here was a wonderful child ;-) I took my mothers lipstick and "drew" on the window boxes when i was a nipper.


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## ClubMan (10 Dec 2007)

delgirl said:


> Is the paint on the living room wall washable?  If so, I would ask them to wash of the crayon themselves since the damage was inflicted by the kids.


Toothpaste may help depending on the marks and the surface.


> If it's not washable paint, I would agree to have the living room painted with washable paint


But not necessarily before _Xmas _as they seem to be demanding?!


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## aircobra19 (10 Dec 2007)

ClubMan said:


> ...
> But not necessarily before _Xmas _as they seem to be demanding?!



Odd why the insistence before Xmas. It would be reasonable to have to wait until you got someone to do it, or had the time yourself.


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## lorna (10 Dec 2007)

for what it is worth, as a landlord in the UK, I would paint the room if the rent is always paid on time.  keep your colours simple and same brand i.e. dulux magnolia silk and it is easy and cheap to give walls a top up.  3-4 hour job at most then tell your tenants that if their kids scribble on walls again then they will have to paint the room themselves.  only problem with this is some people just cant paint and make a complete xxxx of it and spash carpets etc.  you have had same tenants for 4 years which is great and if the repairs you listed are all you have had in that time then you are fortunate !


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## delgirl (10 Dec 2007)

kiwifruit said:


> I take it that Donking has never been a landlord.
> 
> Cause if he had been he wouldnt be spouting on like he has..


  Wrong!



kiwifruit said:


> I am a landlord and i would have no problem letting the tenant repaint the room,at his/her own expense. Its crazy to expect the landlord paint the room because the tenants kids scribbled on the walls. Landlords are required to repair faults with the property, scribbled walls does not come under faults.
> 
> One last time.......DO NOT PAINT the room/house for them,if the tenant wants it done that badly let them do it themselves..


I would never allow my tenants to paint even one room themselves for the same reason Lorna pointed out - some people just can't paint.

As another poster pointed out, if they moved out, the OP would have to re-paint anyway.  

If the painter is available before Christmas, then I would let him do it, but I would make it very clear to them that I will only deal with legitimate wear and tear in future.


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## tosullivan (10 Dec 2007)

I would consider re-painting seeing as its 4yrs now since they have been living there, but do it on your own terms and certainly not now just before xmas.

Tell them if you want you'll get it done in the new year...its not going to cost that much.


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## aircobra19 (10 Dec 2007)

From experience. kids can not do it (draw on walls) for years and just take a notion to do it. Its a phase like any other, that they may do, and they may not do. All kids are different. Just because your own kids never did it doesn't mean anything.


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## delgirl (10 Dec 2007)

aircobra19 said:


> Just because your own kids never did it doesn't mean anything.


I'm afraid I don't agree with you there - it's a case of respect for other people's property.

I lived in rented accommodation for the first 5 years of my child's life and he never drew on the walls because he was told not to do it.

Respect for others and their property (not necessarily houses) appears to have gone out the window in recent years.


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## bacchus (10 Dec 2007)

frescoflyer said:


> sittingroom had alot of crayon / marker on the walls which I suspect the kids did.


 
What's about swapping the kids's crayon for emulsion paint & brushes?  

After 4 years of renting , its does not seem unreasonable to freshen up the room with a new coat of paint.


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## frescoflyer (10 Dec 2007)

Hi all,

And thanks for all the replies - definitely food for thought.

Firstly, I have kept the rent the same as it is matches the market rates at the moment, in fact, it is a bit short of the market rates but due to market conditions and a plentitude of houses, I have decided to remain competative.

I look at being a landlord from a "big picture" point of view. I am living in Dublin, so do not want the hassle of tenants moving all the time. Therefore, fulfilling their requests pays dividends in the long run. Also, I have made a nice profit on the property for doing, in the grand scheme of things, very little. Treating tenants with respect is important but there is a line, even for me, to be drawn (not with marker or crayon, mind!). The extras I have bought for the house (shed, fence etc) I would consider extras that will help me rent the property out quickly when the current tenant moves on. Also, it also makes the house that bit more "saleable" if and when I do decide to sell.

One important point I forgot to mention is that the tenant hinted on moving on early in 2008, so I would prefer to get the whole house painted after they have moved on.

So, all in all, at a minimum I think the tenant should pay for a part of the decoration of the room in question. At this moment in time they have accepted the no decoration route but will wait and see.

Finally, to answer earlier questions about the bath, it seems something was dropped to cause the crack. The insurance company paid for all this so no expense there.

And, yes, I do pay tax!

Thanks again,

Fresco


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## rabbit (11 Dec 2007)

Stifster said:


> The tenant should paying for the redecoration.
> 
> You can deduct it from the deposit.


 
yes, agreed.


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## rabbit (11 Dec 2007)

frescoflyer said:


> Finally, to answer earlier questions about the bath, it seems something was dropped to cause the crack. The insurance company paid for all this so no expense there.


 
Maybe at no expense to you.  However,  baths which were brand new 4 years ago generally do not develop cracks in the bottom of them.....unless something heavy was dropped to cause the crack.   Maybe the insurance paid for it and you had no expense there, but if we all dropped heavy things in our baths all our insurance premiums would go up.


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## zag (11 Dec 2007)

No expense ?  Have you got your insurance renewal since the bath was replaced ?  Going on previous experience, your premium will have increased because your property has had a claim made against it.  This will be a cost to you, and probably for some years to come.

z


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## dereko1969 (11 Dec 2007)

frescoflyer said:


> Hi,
> 
> Tenants (one family from Ghana, 2 parents, now 3 kids) moved in.


 
Just wondering what the tenant's nationality has to do with anything?


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## frescoflyer (11 Dec 2007)

Hi,

In a perfect world, there would be no expense in anything. I take some comfort in the fact that I can write off insurance premiums etc against tax. Sometimes, you have to take the bad with the good.

With reference to their nationality, nothing more than informational. Full stop.

Cheers,

Fresco


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## DonKing (11 Dec 2007)

dereko1969 said:


> Just wondering what the tenant's nationality has to do with anything?



Well my preference would be to rent to Eastern Europeans, hardworking and respectful of you and your property. As I've stated on other threads, I believe that you expose yourself to a higher risk of your property being thrashed if you rent to tenants who are getting handouts from the state weather they be Irish or non Irish.


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## DonKing (11 Dec 2007)

kiwifruit said:


> I take it that Donking has never been a landlord.
> 
> Cause if he had been he wouldnt be spouting on like he has..



Less of the personel comments if you don't mind



kiwifruit said:


> I take it that Donking has never been a landlord.
> 
> Its crazy to expect the landlord paint the room because the tenants kids scribbled on the walls. the tenant wants it done that badly let them do it themselves..




Who's saying a landlord should be responsible to repaint if a tenants child scribbles on a wall? It's quite clear that this is damage caused by the tenant's child however a tenant has a right to expect redocoration after a reasonable amount of tenancy.


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## CCOVICH (12 Dec 2007)

This thread is now taking too much time to moderate.

Thread locked.


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