# 3rd Level Fees



## Purple (2 Nov 2017)

Should Students attending third level pay fees?

Should there be a Student Loan system?

Should the costs be covered for in full by the taxpaying citizens of the country?


The arguments for 3rd level being free at the point of access are;

It is a right.

It is good for society.

It encourages participation by people from poorer backgrounds.


The first point is dubious as Masters, PhD’s and mature Students all have to pay fees at present.

The second is debatable; there are many things which are good for society, should they all be paid for by other people?

The third is utter nonsense; poor people don’t pay fees at the moment.


I have no objection to Students not paying fees but we need a proper national discussion about what sort of third level education system we want and need.

It seems to me that every College wants to be a University and that it is desirable that every Student gets a Masters. Is that really what we need? I’m from a Engineering Trades background and, in common with other companies in my area in Ireland, the biggest obstacle to growth we face is a lack of skilled people and a State training system which is utterly unfit for purpose.

What is the objective of spending all the extra money which an abolition of fees would cost? It isn’t to get young people from deprived areas into college as they don’t pay fees anyway. If we wanted to address the issue of under education in those areas we’d be spending the money there on early primary educational resources.


It is not because we need more graduates; we have amongst the highest level of graduates in the world. The quality of many of those degrees is, in my opinion, questionable.

We have no Universities in the top 200 in the world. Trinity just about made it before because they “accidentally” gave false information to the accessing body. They have since been disqualified from that list completely.


Maybe we need to look at the quality of the 3rd level institutions we have, including the quality of the people teaching there and running things, before we decouple the consumer of the product (the student) from the cost of providing that product. Remembering that fees only cover a small proportion of the overall cost anyway.


So, do we want a good third level educational system (let’s not starting talking about being “world class”) which is properly funded and targets the areas we need as a society and an economy or do we want middleclass parents to send their middleclass kids to college and still afford holidays and car upgrades?

Given the massive advantage those students will enjoy throughout their lives as a result of their degree I see no issue with a Student Loan system. That way the Students will be more likely to demand quality from the service provider.  Equally I have no objection to not charging them fees. The objective should be to have a system which is fit for purpose, offers value for money  and given the best results possible. Whichever system does that is what we should go for. Ideology should not come into it.


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## qwerty5 (2 Nov 2017)

I'd agree with a loan if there was some method of only charging it to student who got their qualification and then left Ireland. I'm not mad about our universities training up high quality candidates who then head off to the US forever.

For example. Charge €20,000 for the course. Add a €20,000 credit to the students PPS number. For the first 10 years of their working in Ireland they get €2000 a year credit. So if somebody studies in Ireland and then heads off abroad that's fine. They don't get the credit. If they return within 10 years then whatever is remaining for the remaining years is applied. e.g. head off for 5 years. So when they returned they'd have €10000 credit remaining.
If the student didn't gain a qualification from the course then the tax credit wouldn't apply.

I'm sure there are holes in this idea.

Holes I can think of are
1: Ireland can't do IT projects without it costing multiples of millions.
2: Every lobby group and his dog would add exceptions or additions to make it unworkable.
3: I don't think this would encourage universities to be efficient. It's likely that they'd just put up fees. People wouldn't complain as they'd be getting it back as a credit so maybe point 4 here would help that.
4: Maybe giving the full course price as a credit wouldn't be the way to go. Maybe it should be 80% or something similar.
5: Our government changes the rules as it suits them so they could use it as an introduction to bring in loans and give 100% credit. Then they'd probably reduce it to 80% after a few years, then 50% etc. etc. until it went down to 0%


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## MrEarl (2 Nov 2017)

Hello,

I get very annoyed when I think about us educating a lot of people to a high level, who then leave the country and our investment goes with them to other parts of the world.

I also think that students should have to pay fees, but all should be able to avail of a very low interest rate and appropriately structured loan facility to fund the fees  (i.e. begin to repay capital over say 5-7 years, from when they leave college).

What I would also support though, is some later form of tax relief for the ex students, to help offset the cost of their education (so that once the person is qualified and has repaid their student loan, is working and contributing substantially to the Irish tax base, they get some form of relief for their educational outlay).


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## odyssey06 (2 Nov 2017)

Does anyone know what other countries (e.g. Canada, France) does with students who leave the country owing large sums in student loans?

I would be in favour of student loans but not if it means the expensively trained students have a massive incentive to leave.


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## dub_nerd (2 Nov 2017)

I know it's probably unworkable, but whatever we decide I see no reason why every university degree should be treated equally. A third level education is great in principle, but some qualifications are not worth the paper they're printed on. But then, who would get to decide?


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## Purple (3 Nov 2017)

dub_nerd said:


> A third level education is great in principle, but some qualifications are not worth the paper they're printed on. But then, who would get to decide?


Generally the employer gets to decide in a work environment.


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## Purple (3 Nov 2017)

MrEarl said:


> Hello,
> 
> I get very annoyed when I think about us educating a lot of people to a high level, who then leave the country and our investment goes with them to other parts of the world.
> 
> ...


I like that idea.


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## dub_nerd (3 Nov 2017)

Purple said:


> Generally the employer gets to decide in a work environment.


But unfortunately too late at that stage to decide if the qualification should have been funded.


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## MrEarl (3 Nov 2017)

odyssey06 said:


> Does anyone know what other countries (e.g. Canada, France) does with students who leave the country owing large sums in student loans?
> 
> I would be in favour of student loans but not if it means the expensively trained students have a massive incentive to leave.



Hello,

I would suggest that we'd get a guarantor on every loan from a parent or guardian, or possibly a sponsoring employer, to help keep the students committed to the debt ?


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## odyssey06 (3 Nov 2017)

MrEarl said:


> Hello, I would suggest that we'd get a guarantor on every loan from a parent or guardian, or possibly a sponsoring employer, to help keep the students committed to the debt ?



What if the parent or guardian is on welfare though? Are they exempt from fees? 
It'd give people even more of an incentive to 'hide their assets' as currently goes on to get grants.


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## Purple (3 Nov 2017)

odyssey06 said:


> What if the parent or guardian is on welfare though? Are they exempt from fees?
> It'd give people even more of an incentive to 'hide their assets' as currently goes on to get grants.


People on welfare don't pay fees.
40% of students currently get a grant, ranging from partial cover of fees to full cover of fees.


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## odyssey06 (3 Nov 2017)

Purple said:


> People on welfare don't pay fees.
> 40% of students currently get a grant, ranging from partial cover of fees to full cover of fees.



In the 'student loan' world though, I see no reason why any student should be exempt... as the loan is based on their future earning power, nothing to do with their parents' current asset or income level.


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## MrEarl (6 Nov 2017)

odyssey06 said:


> In the 'student loan' world though, I see no reason why any student should be exempt... as the loan is based on their future earning power, nothing to do with their parents' current asset or income level.



Agreed. 

Everyone should be equal, because all have equal chances to become successful on the back of their education.


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## Firefly (6 Nov 2017)

odyssey06 said:


> In the 'student loan' world though, I see no reason why any student should be exempt... as the loan is based on their future earning power, nothing to do with their parents' current asset or income level.



That's so true!


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