# Is it worth suing for 500€?



## runner (2 Dec 2009)

I am owed around 500€ by an individual (not a company) for services provided. Even though there is no dispute regarding the debt owing, he seems to have no intention of paying it. It was invoiced to his home address which he owns and to him personally, and he can afford to pay it.

The question - is it worth my while following it up legally, or would I be better off forgetting about it?

If someone could summaries the costs and timescales in taking the legal route, it would be a great help.

This would include sheriff costs if judgement is got, and time it would take to get that far.


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## Chris (2 Dec 2009)

*Re: Is it worth sueing for 500€?*

Why don't you get someone to call this person saying something like: "This is John Murphy, from Murphy and Associates. I am calling on behalf of Mr./Ms. runner regarding the €500 unpaid invoice. As this has not been paid in a timely manner my client has asked me to start procedings. Before we go down the legal route I would like to give you a last chance to pay the outstanding invoice."

A friend of mine did this a few years ago and it worked a treat.


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## runner (2 Dec 2009)

*Re: Is it worth sueing for 500€?*

Thanks Chris.
This unfortunately will not work. Have tried approaches like this to no avail.
He might pay if a Sheriff arrived at the door. I want to know if its worth my while going that far from a cost perspective.


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## mercman (2 Dec 2009)

*Re: Is it worth sueing for 500€?*

Why not try the Small Claims Court ??? Doesn't cost much and you represent yourself.


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## runner (2 Dec 2009)

*Re: Is it worth sueing for 500€?*

Mercman thanks, I didnt think that the small claims courts can be used for debts.
I thought it was only for consumer issues. This is a debt for a service provided.
Perhaps Im wrong ..


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## demoivre (2 Dec 2009)

*Re: Is it worth sueing for 500€?*



runner said:


> Mercman thanks, I didnt think that the small claims courts can be used for debts.



You're right, it can't be used for debts.


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## Padraigb (2 Dec 2009)

*Re: Is it worth sueing for 500€?*

If you are sure that he has resources, and if you have reasonable documentation to support your claim, then you might as well go the legal route. He will be obliged to pay your reasonable costs as well as the amount due to you.

Prior to consulting a solicitor, I would write a short and very formal letter (non-argumentative) telling him that if he does not pay in full within, say, 10 days, you will refer the matter to your legal representative to take steps to enforce collection.


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## ali (2 Dec 2009)

*Re: Is it worth sueing for 500€?*

Hi,

In my very recent experience it is very unlikely to be financially worthwhile to pursue this. It would certainly be worth it to send a solicitor's letter (cost approx. €50) but if you feel that nothing short of the sherriff would make him pay you will have to go down the legal route. Go to court, get a judgement and get it enforced. This assuming he doesn't mount a defence which will delay things and increase costs. 

My husband was owed €30k and had to go legal. 18 months later and approx €3k in costs to date he has not yet had a court date (they defended) . He has received €17,500 of the debt and it is now at the stage where it will probably reach €5k in costs to recover €9,500 and that assumes we win the case. (They are extremely dishonest and manipulative). There is never a guarantee that you recover costs. Sometimes you get your judgement but no ruling is made in terms of costs.

I imagine like our case you are taking this very personally. It's hard not to when they get your service and just won't pay and don't care about your circumstances. However I would say that the psychological damage of dragging this out  can totally outweigh the benefit of getting €500. Forgive me if I'm making assumptions. In our case we had to pursue it due to the amounts involved but if it were €500 for us and we knew then what we know now, we would walk away and wish them bad luck with it . 

A


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## runner (2 Dec 2009)

*Re: Is it worth sueing for 500€?*



Padraigb said:


> If you are sure that he has resources, and if you have reasonable documentation to support your claim, then you might as well go the legal route. He will be obliged to pay your reasonable costs as well as the amount due to you.
> 
> Prior to consulting a solicitor, I would write a short and very formal letter (non-argumentative) telling him that if he does not pay in full within, say, 10 days, you will refer the matter to your legal representative to take steps to enforce collection.



Thanks Padraighb and Ali.

Ive done that and its been ignored.

Even if I succeed (never guatanteed) in court, it will still cost me money and hastle.
Im inclined to forget about it!


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## mercman (2 Dec 2009)

*Re: Is it worth sueing for 500€?*



runner said:


> Im inclined to forget about it!



Sorry for getting the small claims court thing wrong. Shows how much I know !!

In relation to forgetting about it, this is what the debtor wants you to forget about it. These people are pathetic.


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## Gervan (2 Dec 2009)

*Re: Is it worth sueing for 500€?*

I do not think it worth the legal costs, but if I were you, I would not let it go. For the cost of a phone call every few days you can keep nagging away at the debtor until he gets fed up. Make it part of your routine to keep asking him for the money.


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## runner (2 Dec 2009)

*Re: Is it worth sueing for 500€?*

I take your point Gervan.
However being pre-occupied with it would only serve to put me in bad humour every morning thinking about it, and probably still get nothing!
The odd phone call maybe, but he wont take the calls anyway.
I suspect Im not his first victim in this respect.


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## sam h (2 Dec 2009)

*Re: Is it worth sueing for 500€?*

There was a thread a while back about someone who was owed some money.  He called to the house and politely asked for his money and was prompltly told where to go.

So he took out some banners/signs and stood outside the house and told all & sundry how he was owed money by Mr X.  If I recall, he was there for about half an hour & left with all his money !!


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## bond-007 (2 Dec 2009)

*Re: Is it worth sueing for 500€?*

For a debt of €500 you will only get scaled costs in the District Court which would be very small and not anywhere near the cost of using a solicitor to take the case. For debts under €1000 if is generally not worth it.

As for standing outside a debtors house with placards etc, it would not be advised as it may well be in breach of the public order act and be a civil trespass which would leave the person open to being sued by the debtor. He could easily call the Gardaí and have you removed. 

There are times when you should simply cut your losses.


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## Bronte (3 Dec 2009)

*Re: Is it worth sueing for 500€?*

The legal route is not worth it because of the cost.  I can't abide people who can and won't pay their debts so I would do the phone calls every day, the standing outside his home with banner and the standing outside his workplace.  I don't see how any of this is illegal.  Someone on here did this before and had a cheque within 2 hours.  Make sure your banner is good and big and says Mr A B of x street,and y business of z street owes me 500 Euro and won't pay.


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## Mr. C.J.H. (3 Dec 2009)

*Re: Is it worth sueing for 500€?*



Chris said:


> Why don't you get someone to call this person saying something like: "This is John Murphy, from Murphy and Associates. I am calling on behalf of Mr./Ms. runner regarding the €500 unpaid invoice. As this has not been paid in a timely manner my client has asked me to start procedings. Before we go down the legal route I would like to give you a last chance to pay the outstanding invoice."
> 
> A friend of mine did this a few years ago and it worked a treat.


 
A lot of the advice is here may be well meaning, but is really horrendous and may lead to the OP landing himself himself in trouble. For example not only is the above a daft suggestion, it is also a criminal offence to pretend to be a solicitor or take or use any name, title, addition or description or make any representation or demand implying that he is a, solicitor! 

The idea of calling to his house with banners is equally daft and may result in legal difficulties for the OP and himself being sued. 

I acknowledge that whilst we might like to do these sort of things, mature and balanced adults will usually think better of it. In fairness, I really don't know why people who have very limited knowledge of an area feel compelled to offer advice when they clearly don't know what they are talking about. 

Ring a local solicitor who practices in debt collection and is willing to take on such cases for a quote.


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## runner (3 Dec 2009)

*Re: Is it worth sueing for 500€?*



bond-007 said:


> For a debt of €500 you will only get scaled costs in the District Court which would be very small and not anywhere near the cost of using a solicitor to take the case. For debts under €1000 if is generally not worth it.
> 
> As for standing outside a debtors house with placards etc, it would not be advised as it may well be in breach of the public order act and be a civil trespass which would leave the person open to being sued by the debtor. He could easily call the Gardaí and have you removed.
> 
> There are times when you should simply cut your losses.



Thanks all - including the extreme actions suggested!

The above post reasonably summarises the actual practicalities of the situation quite well. Basically its not worth the hassle. If one personalises these things it consumes too much time. Life's too short!


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## Bronte (3 Dec 2009)

*Re: Is it worth sueing for 500€?*



Mr. C.J.H. said:


> The idea of calling to his house with banners is equally daft and may result in legal difficulties for the OP and himself being sued.
> 
> .


 
I don't see anything daft about it, I was deadly serious.  The debt is owed the the debtor is refusing to pay and can pay.  How could the OP be sued, sued for what?  

The gardai will do nothing and will say it's a civil matter.

Murphy & Co could be a debt collection agency, all you need is to sound official.


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## bond-007 (3 Dec 2009)

*Re: Is it worth sueing for 500€?*

The debt *may* be *legitimately* disputed. The debtor may have told the creditor to sue him if he thought there was any basis to the debt. If the creditor refuses to use the legal process to recover the debt due to the costs involved that is their problem, they cannot take the law into their own hands. The debtor could sue for defamation if it turned out the debt was not owed as described. The silly creditor could even be trespassing on private property leaving himself open to being sued for that.



> The gardai will do nothing and will say it's a civil matter.


Obstruction of the public highway. Behaviour likely to lead to a breach of the peace. Various public order offences. He could be even moved on for his own safety.


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## Chris (3 Dec 2009)

*Re: Is it worth sueing for 500€?*



Mr. C.J.H. said:


> A lot of the advice is here may be well meaning, but is really horrendous and may lead to the OP landing himself himself in trouble. For example not only is the above a daft suggestion, it is also a criminal offence to pretend to be a solicitor or take or use any name, title, addition or description or make any representation or demand implying that he is a, solicitor!



I should have pointed out that the terminology used does not refer to the caller claiming to be a solicitor and no professional title is used. Murphy and Associates could be a barber shop or anything else.


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## bond-007 (3 Dec 2009)

*Re: Is it worth sueing for 500€?*

It would be likely to mislead which could well be an offence.


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## runner (3 Dec 2009)

*Re: Is it worth sueing for 500€?*

If it was 5,000 not 500 I would consider various actions such as cited in above posts.
But I dont think its worth the hassle and RISK taking things into my own hands.


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## Luckycharm (3 Dec 2009)

*Re: Is it worth sueing for 500€?*

Send a stubbs letter to them alot cheaper then going to court might work [broken link removed]


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## Irishchappie (3 Dec 2009)

*Re: Is it worth sueing for 500€?*

Could you sell the debt onto a debt collection agency? Im sure a visit from those guys could shake him up a bit.

Granted you would make a loss but getting a portion of something is better than nothing.

I.C


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## bond-007 (3 Dec 2009)

*Re: Is it worth sueing for 500€?*



Irishchappie said:


> Could you sell the debt onto a debt collection agency? Im sure a visit from those guys could shake him up a bit.



Debt collectors have no legal powers above those of  private citizens. He can just as easily them them to f off as well. Also debt collectors do not buy debts here.


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## lightswitch (3 Dec 2009)

*Re: Is it worth sueing for 500€?*

Runner, I realise it is only €500 but it is still very important that you make every effort to make this guy pay, as you say he can afford to.   You may be able to take the hit on this occasion but what about the next guy he rips off and the one after that?  

I would suggest you just park outside his house for a few hours and mention the non payment to his neighbours as they pass by.  If you dont want to do that then get someone to do it for you.


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## Bronte (3 Dec 2009)

*Re: Is it worth sueing for 500€?*



bond-007 said:


> Obstruction of the public highway. Behaviour likely to lead to a breach of the peace. Various public order offences. He could be even moved on for his own safety.


 
Standing outside someone's house is not obstruction of the public highway.  Where's the breach of the peace.  Do you actually think the gardai will do anything?  You've great faith in their likelyhood of doing anything at all.  Have you ever rung the gardai for a neighbour making too much noise or having rubbish all over their garden or a dangerous tenant overstaying their tenancy?


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## bond-007 (3 Dec 2009)

*Re: Is it worth sueing for 500€?*

Unless you have a judgement against him that behaviour could well leave you severely out of pocket.


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## runner (3 Dec 2009)

*Re: Is it worth sueing for 500€?*

Lots of suggestions, all well intended.
But has BOND has inferred above, nothing short of a legal judgement will phase the guy.
I could stand outside all night and I think it would not bother him.
Thats why the original post was about the cost of going legal.


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## jack2009 (3 Dec 2009)

*Re: Is it worth sueing for 500€?*

Have a look into Experian, they charge 10% they will send a letter to two and make some calls.  I am not sure how effective they will be as it is a person rather than a company you are chasing.

Who lives in the house?  If you call to the house enough they might end up paying just to get rid of you especially if it is parents/wife etc. answering the door.


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## Mr. C.J.H. (3 Dec 2009)

*Re: Is it worth sueing for 500€?*



Chris said:


> I should have pointed out that the terminology used does not refer to the caller claiming to be a solicitor and no professional title is used. Murphy and Associates could be a barber shop or anything else.


 
A barber calling stating their client has asked them to "start proceedings", come on be serious for a moment, whilst not expressly claiming to be a solicitor I think it is quite clear that objectively it would be viewed as making a representation or demand implying that he is a solicitor and thus contray to legislation. Incidentally only solicitors are permitted to conduct litigation on behalf of clients.  

I also agree entirely with Bond's observations too.


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## candyflipper (8 Dec 2009)

*Re: Is it worth sueing for 500€?*

500 is definitely worth a small claim.  But don't involve a lawyer, it's not worth it.

Defendants often change their tune once a cop has served them court papers.  They will often ask how much to pay you to make the problem go away, and then you can cancel the lawsuit without even appearing in court.  Many debtors simply won't do anything until there are court papers in front of them.

The deadbeat defendants are just a little more hassle.  They usually don't even show up to court - which works in your favor.  You get a default judgment w/out even having to show much evidence or put forward an elaborate argument.  Collecting is only easy if you know where they work, and can garnish wages.  Or if you know they own a home, you can use the judgment to put a lien in their home.

It's very satisfying to force a deadbeat to pay through court actions, and finally get your money.  Otherwise it could eat away at you.  And by doing nothing, you're actually supporting the crime.


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## bond-007 (8 Dec 2009)

*Re: Is it worth sueing for 500€?*

Firstly small claims cannot be used for debts. Don't even attempt that.

Secondly, the professional deadbeat debtors, do not work (at least on paper) and do not own any property. You will have an awful job trying to get them to pay you. Getting a judgement won't matter a jot to them as they probably have a load of them already. You won't have much joy getting an instalment order as they will be on welfare. These guys probably light the fire each morning with solicitors letters and court papers.

There are times you really need to cut your losses.


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## candyflipper (8 Dec 2009)

*Re: Is it worth sueing for 500€?*



bond-007 said:


> Firstly small claims cannot be used for debts. Don't even attempt that.


Sounds like you've been burned in court a few times.  I've always successfully collected my debts this way.  

Otherwise, what incentive do any tenants have to ever pay rent, if the court wouldn't hear cases against them? 


bond-007 said:


> Secondly, the professional deadbeat debtors, do not work (at least on paper) and do not own any property.


Obviously if you don't know who their employer is, and you don't know where their assets are, the risk of not collecting on the judgment goes way up.  This information is secured before going into court.  These types of debtors are often dogmatic, and too lazy to switch jobs, even when their wages are being garnished, making it quite easy for the creditor to recover the full amount.  I garnished someones wages over period that spanned 2-3 years until it was paid off.

If you're dealing with a large amount of money, then it's worth it to pursue even without knowing their workplace or where their assets are.  After winning the judgment plaintiffs can have defendants ordered into court to declare their assets.  In which case if they don't show up, an arrest warrant is issued.

As far as property goes, most people own a car.  Even cheap cars are typically worth more than 500, so putting a lien on the car is another option if they don't have a house.


bond-007 said:


> Getting a judgement won't matter a jot to them as they probably have a load of them already.


Not if the court doesn't enforce debt payment, as you're claiming.  

In most cases, the other creditors are deadbeats too, unwilling to bother with court (because the general public has court phobia), which means you generally do not have to wait in line to collect from the debtor.


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## Guest110 (9 Dec 2009)

*Re: Is it worth sueing for 500€?*

Would anyone go to the Viper and ask him to retrieve the debt for a % of the return ? I believe he is now a debt collector !


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## Bronte (9 Dec 2009)

*Re: Is it worth sueing for 500€?*



bond-007 said:


> Secondly, the professional deadbeat debtors, do not work (at least on paper) and do not own any property.
> .


 
OP said they owned their own home so it's not the professional deadbeat debtor (good expression)  in this case.  But as you've pointed out the costs of going to court and winning will not pay for those costs.


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## ziltwo (9 Dec 2009)

*Re: Is it worth sueing for 500€?*



Luckycharm said:


> Send a stubbs letter to them alot cheaper then going to court might work [broken link removed]


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## ziltwo (9 Dec 2009)

I have used these stubbs letters they only cost €27.00. 80% of the time they work; depending on the person you are sending them too.


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## runner (9 Dec 2009)

*Re: Is it worth sueing for 500€?*

Send them a 'stubbs letter' !
I might as well send him a Christmas card


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## bond-007 (9 Dec 2009)

All he will do is light the fire with those letters.


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## Bronte (9 Dec 2009)

*Re: Is it worth sueing for 500€?*



runner said:


> Send them a 'stubbs letter' !
> I might as well send him a Christmas card


 
Can you outline more of his details, employment, assets, spouse working etc?


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## bond-007 (9 Dec 2009)

> spouse working


No use to you in a court unless the debt is in joint names.


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## runner (9 Dec 2009)

As Ive said before, he can afford to pay!
He owns ( free of debt - he told me some time back) a valuable house from which he operates whatever he does, and lives there. The bill is to him at this address, no known dispute. Its for services provided .Its not within the ambit of the small claims court.
I would have to go the normal legal route, if at all.
He will ignore it till a court summons at least arrives.
He may even concoct a defence.
I would not expect to get paid till the sherriff calls.

So, to summarise again..

a) is it worth my while.
b) how long would this take.


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## browtal (30 Apr 2010)

I had a similar situation some years ago. After several approaches they refused to pay. Eventually I let it rest but now 21 years later still regret that I did not just give it to a debt collector who might have collected some of it and kept it. I would be happier if the debt collector had the money. He would have made a nuisance of himself in their business premises. Good luck and there is no price on peace of mind. You live and learn Browtal


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## Mongola (2 May 2010)

Money owed is money owed. If I were you I would go to the Small Claims Court. I, firstly would write him a final letter (register it) asking for payment and letting him not that you do intend to persue the matter legally if not settled. Give him 2 weeks to contact you and the chance to pay up. If not= small claims court, it is 15 euro to register your claim and once registered, the other party wil be contacted and will still have a chance to settle the matter outside court. 
Good luck!


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## dave28 (2 May 2010)

Last year a Cavan businessman, who claimed he was owed over £90,000,  decided to shame his debtors by posting up a list of names and amounts owed in his shop window.
I wonder how that panned out ? Sounded like a good idea to me !


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## bond-007 (2 May 2010)

He is probably busy defending defamation actions.


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## markpb (2 May 2010)

bond-007 said:


> He is probably busy defending defamation actions.



Data protection maybe but I can't see how any of them would have a defamation case if he has proof of the figures owed.


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## bond-007 (2 May 2010)

The amounts may be in dispute. The alleged debtors may owe him nothing. It is not an alleged debtors fault if he will not resolve a dispute. Only the courts can decide. If he has judgements he can name them all he likes, but not before. If he can't be bothered to use the legal processes to recover his money from the alleged debtors that is his problem. People taking the law into their own lands is one step away from anarchy.


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## twofor1 (2 May 2010)

A Belfast Telegraph article on this Cavan businessman along with some comments can be found here;

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/debtors-to-be-named-and-shamed-on-shop-window-14190871.html


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## bond-007 (2 May 2010)

> Owen Smith (47), from Cavan town, *said some of his unpaid debts go as  far back    as 2002 *and he could not put off the payments any longer


So he allowed some of the alleged debts to go statute barred. Well done. I really hope that he consulted a solicitor before embarking on such a name and shaming venture.


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