# Electric Ireland - New prices, new VAT rate



## mathepac (12 May 2022)

In order to help Electric Ireland with accurate billing, I phoned them on the afternoon of Friday, 29th April last with a meter-reading taken that afternoon. This was to help them (and me) with transition between the upcoming changes, so they only had to guess (estimate/forecast in "morketing" speak) a single days consumption when issuing my new bill at the new rates.

Since then I've heard nothing from them. No bill, no email, nothing on their web-site that I can see and certainly no flowers.  I phoned today and was told they have suspended all billing activity since the week-end before implementing the price and VAT changes in order to upgrade "the system".  I find this worrying.

I don't know how other suppliers are treating the changes, but watch your bills.


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## Sue Ellen (12 May 2022)

mathepac said:


> Since then I've heard nothing from them. No bill, no email, nothing on their web-site that I can see and certainly no flowers.



That's absolutely disgraceful, no flowers   Write to the Regulator


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## jpd (12 May 2022)

I think the electricity providers were caught when the government changed the VAT rate from 13.5 to 9 from 1st May  which affected the credit they had awarded in March

The credit was 176.22 + VAT (at 13.5% = € 200 but at 9% only 192.08) so they had to reprogram and test their billing systems to cope with the change. My invoice was 9 days late

The unintended consequences of populist measures trying to give € 200 to all (whether they needed it or not) to calm the outcry
This is the politicians' fault not the providers


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## mathepac (13 May 2022)

That doesn't stack up for me.

The €200.01 credit was applied to all Electric Ireland accounts on 2/4/2022, the relevant VAT rate being 13.5%. In my case, this left a balance due to be paid by me, the VAT rate being 13.5% on that balance.

I was also given a loyalty bonus of €100 for agreeing to a new 12-month contract.  That still left a balance due as of 29/4/2022 including VAT at 13.5%. When I pay that balance, my idea was that EI calculates an invoice for 1 days consumption by me at the rates prevailing on 30/4/2022 and starts a new billing period from 1/5/2022 with the new rates in place.

What could be simpler?  Maybe, just maybe, EI and ESB Networks employees were too busy calculating the impact of the new rates on their free electricity allowances and their €80k/annum, on average, salaries.

In my experience, date-based changes in taxation rates or date-based variations in product pricing are not reasons to shut down billing activity, they're just par for the course for any well-designed accounting application.  I fear something else is wrong.


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## jpd (13 May 2022)

In my experience, energy providers, as well as most other utility companies, do not have well-designed accounting applications


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## mathepac (16 May 2022)

17 days after submitting an up-to-date meter reading and I've still had no communication from Electric Ireland.  I logged into my account this evening and the balance is now €292.08 in credit.  A debit of €7.93 had been processed against my account (charge for 30/04/2022 ?)  but no details are available online.  Trying to download the latest statement only gives me a copy of the invoice for March, which is paid.

Anyone any ideas?


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## jpd (16 May 2022)

The € 192.08 is the credit accorded by the government

The credit was € 176.22 net of VAT
When it was announced, the VAT rate was 13.5%  so the credit was € 176.22 x 1.135 = € 200
The VAT rate has been reduced to 9% so the credit is now € 176.22 x 1.09 = € 192.08

It looks like Electric Ireland credited your account with € 200 and then debited it with € 7.93

Don't know where the other € 100 comes from


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## mathepac (16 May 2022)

Loyalty bonus for signing up for another 12 months with them


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## mathepac (16 May 2022)

jpd said:


> It looks like Electric Ireland credited your account with € 200 and then debited it with € 7.93


Your explanation makes no sense.

The billing period ended on 29/4/2022 when I submitted the meter reading when the VAT rate was 13.5%. They cannot arbitrarily decide to apply the VAT rate to a billing period pre-dating 1/5/2033. They may try but I'll point out to them the error of their ways.

If what you posted previously in this thread about their accounting applications is true, it resurfaces my speculation that It may in some way relate to the Fujitsu/Horizon debacle and The Post Office in the UK.


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## marsaday (17 May 2022)

mathepac said:


> Your explanation makes no sense.
> 
> The billing period ended on 29/4/2022 when I submitted the meter reading when the VAT rate was 13.5%. They cannot arbitrarily decide to apply the VAT rate to a billing period pre-dating 1/5/2033. They may try but I'll point out to them the error of their ways.
> 
> If what you posted previously in this thread about their accounting applications is true, it resurfaces my speculation that It may in some way relate to the Fujitsu/Horizon debacle and The Post Office in the UK.


jpd ‘s calculations make total sense


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## mathepac (17 May 2022)

Just off the phone with Electric Ireland and I've heard the most outlandish explanation of all time for the delay in invoicing.

EI suspended all invoicing as and from 29/04/2022.  Internally they have decided that all invoices produced after that date will have VAT charged at 9% even though the units/services billed will have been consumed or availed of during the period pre-dating the rate change date of 01/05/2022. Typically this would be from late February to early March 2022, using the 61-day billing cycle.  It will take several more days for my bill to reach me as they have invoices for 1.3 million domestic accounts to process. That number of accounts seems low to me but in any case my next question was if they were using a Commodre-64 for the calculations and production of invoices.

If this is what's going to happen then I won't examine the gift horse's dentition too closely as the saving is mine at 2/3rds the VAT rate that should ordinarily apply.


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## Paul O Mahoney (18 May 2022)

mathepac said:


> Just off the phone with Electric Ireland and I've heard the most outlandish explanation of all time for the delay in invoicing.
> 
> EI suspended all invoicing as and from 29/04/2022.  Internally they have decided that all invoices produced after that date will have VAT charged at 9% even though the units/services billed will have been consumed or availed of during the period pre-dating the rate change date of 01/05/2022. Typically this would be from late February to early March 2022, using the 61-day billing cycle.  It will take several more days for my bill to reach me as they have invoices for 1.3 million domestic accounts to process. That number of accounts seems low to me but in any case my next question was if they were using a Commodre-64 for the calculations and production of invoices.
> 
> If this is what's going to happen then I won't examine the gift horse's dentition too closely as the saving is mine at 2/3rds the VAT rate that should ordinarily apply.


Vat is charged at the point of sale it doesn't accumulate,  so as vat is 9% from May first and billed at that date the vat is charged at 9% your energy isn't vatable until its " sold" to you.


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## mathepac (23 May 2022)

Just off the phone having had another chat with Electric Ireland's customer services team.

Initially, the agent told me my next bill was due at the end of July as my account is in credit. I asked if that was July 2022 or 2023, whereupon he seems to have consulted his script again and changed his first thoughts.

Last Tuesday 17th May, the Commodore 64 was finally reprogrammed and switched on and was allowed to start issuing consumer bills again. Apparently BASIC and assembly-language programmers are in short supply. My bill is due "at the end of this week [27th May] or the week after", the agent stated with great conviction and accuracy.

What was less clear was what the billing period will be. I pointed out again that I had submitted a meter reading on 29th April and that I expected a bill up to that period-ending date.  More confusion on the agent's part about what would happen with electricity & services consumed from that date and the date the invoice will issue, an additional 5 week's elapsed time.

We live in hope.


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## TRS30 (23 May 2022)

I recently (4th April) switched to Electric Ireland for both gas and electricity. I wanted to avail of their level pay option to keep cost similar all year. Requested online and gas was set up straight away however for electricity it told me I need to have been issued with 2 bills! I assumed this would be circa 4 months time so well into my 12 month contract. 

I got my first bill last Wednesday, submitted a meter reading the same day, got another bill on Thursday so applied again for level pay Friday. Let's see what they say!!


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## mathepac (27 May 2022)

I'm becoming more and more disillusioned with why we pay big bucks (plus discounted fuel) to Electric Ireland staff.

Today chatting to the latest agent I contacted, I was told all the information given to me by my previous contacts was incorrect.  Not that anyone had lied to me, or made-up stories on the spot, it's just they'd been given incorrect information to pass on to the public. He dodged the question about who had briefed the consumer-facing agents with wrong information.

I will not have a bill this week.  Today's agent has "raised a query".  With whom? I asked,  Well with the system really was the response.  So I can't have a name to follow up with then, I suppose? Reply: All I know is it'll take from 3 to 5 working days to get a response from the system, he replied.

It looks like I won't have a bill by next Friday either, although I was told that they (customer-facing agents) were told, that the target was to have all consumer invoices issued by June 2nd.  I didn't ask which year.

I asked again about the reason for the delays and misinformation and the response was that it was a very complex scenario what with VAT-rate changes, product and service pricing increases, etc (etc presumably covers all the usual suspects, BREXIT, lack of lorry drivers, COVID, and so on).  Great I said so does this mean that when the VAT-rate changes in October 2022, and/ orwhen prices change again, the billing system will collapse again?  The answer was apparently above his pay grade.


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## elcato (27 May 2022)

You say your bill date due was on the 30th of April. My bill date is the first week arounf the 7th. I assumed everyone was the same date as they sent me an original bill after just 4 days in March to bring me (I thought) in line with everyone else.


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## mathepac (27 May 2022)

No I said it was the 29th.  They don't want all bills falling due on the same date(s) as this would create a bottleneck with issuing invoices and processing subsequent payments, depending on the method of payment.


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## mathepac (2 Jun 2022)

The agent I spoke to last Friday rang me yesterday with the information that all remaining bills would be released today 2/6/2022.  It seems they have been releasing them in blocks and today's block will be the last.

One lives in hope ...


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## mathepac (8 Jun 2022)

The response from the agent I spoke to today was "It is what it is" when I questioned why there was such a delay in having invoices issued; no date available when bills will issue, so no date available when bills will be received.

I asked to have my query escalated but this request was denied on the basis that it would be a waste of my time as a supervisor would have no additional information to supply.  I raised a complaint about the delay in billing, the lack of any information, and the "It is what it is" comment. 

We are now well into the billing cycle succeeding the one where VAT rates, product pricing and account credits were applied and there's no sign that implementation has been completed. Maybe it hasn't even started!


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## TRS30 (8 Jun 2022)

TRS30 said:


> I recently (4th April) switched to Electric Ireland for both gas and electricity. I wanted to avail of their level pay option to keep cost similar all year. Requested online and gas was set up straight away however for electricity it told me I need to have been issued with 2 bills! I assumed this would be circa 4 months time so well into my 12 month contract.
> 
> I got my first bill last Wednesday, submitted a meter reading the same day, got another bill on Thursday so applied again for level pay Friday. Let's see what they say!!



Level pay rejected again for electricity. Supposedly my payment requested date was too far from the bill issue day, whatever that means! 

They also took two gas payments from my a/c this month, the bill amount and the level pay amount!

Cheaper isn't always better.....


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## Leo (8 Jun 2022)

TRS30 said:


> Cheaper isn't always better.....


Level pay isn't supposed to be cheaper. The goal is to be more predictable for consumers that might struggle to pay large winter bills, or just prefer more regular outgoings.

The utilities load the bills in their favour, usually over-charging so that you don't get surprised by a large bill and fall into arrears that costs them money to chase.


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## TRS30 (8 Jun 2022)

Leo said:


> Level pay isn't supposed to be cheaper. The goal is to be more predictable for consumers that might struggle to pay large winter bills, or just prefer more regular outgoings.
> 
> The utilities load the bills in their favour, usually over-charging so that you don't get surprised by a large bill and fall into arrears that costs them money to chase.



I was referring to Electric Ireland in general.


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## mathepac (6 Jul 2022)

Still no bill from Electric Ireland since 16th March despite repeated requests from me and empty promises from them!  (can't find a "scratchin' me head here" emoji)


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## mathepac (8 Jul 2022)

I had a hospital appointment in Dublin today and apparently, a meter reader called or so customer services in Electric Ireland told me. The meter readers are employed by ESB Networks and, getting a reading from Cork to Fitzwilliam Street, Dublin 2, has taken 5/6 days in the past, so I stopped using that communications channel years ago..

If I take a meter reading and phone it in to Fitzwilliam Street, I can have an e-bill (PDF file emailed to me) in 24 hours, before the Government messed it all up and made it complicated. The government changed product pricing and changed the VAT rate. If a primary school pupil couldn't do these basic maths, I'd be very worried, and get her to change schools.

This Scarlet Pimpernel of meter readers never left his calling card (yellow and blue postcard) in the letter box. These were common in the good old days when the consumer had the option of posting the card with a new reading filled in or phoning in the reading. As I didn't get a card, I'm skeptical about anyone calling. I asked why they'd need another reading as they'd done nothing with the last one, and I was assured yet again I'd have a bill up to April 29th by next Friday, 15/7 2022. And pigs might fly.

As my medical treatments are complex, with more than one condition, and three hospitals, I can't always predict when I'll be home, so I asked if the Scarlet Pimpernel could phone me for a specific time. No, said customer services, he doesn't do appointments, he just shows up. Seems like an awful waste of time money, fuel, and effort for no result, but who am I to dare voice an opinion?

I had downloaded this and asked the customer services rep who I could address my complaint, based on the fact that Electric Ireland are now in breach of their own

*Customer Service Guarantees*



			https://www.electricireland.ie/docs/cop/billing-and-disconnection.pdf
		


Relevant extracts: "*Electric Ireland will issue scheduled bills to customers no later than one month after the receipt of meter reading data for the billing period involved, except in situations where the customer has agreed otherwise, or where meter reading data appears incorrect.*"

I’ve never agreed otherwise and I've never been told the data appear incorrect - they've had lots of opportunities to review it for veracity so it appears correct, several years’ worth of correct.

*"Electric Ireland issues bills on a two-monthly basis to residential and small business customers. Larger business customers may receive monthly bills where appropriate.

Your bill is calculated on the basis of meter reading(s), actual or estimated, and other data supplied by the relevant Network Operator*. Customer readings may be used where provided."*

I've been supplying actual meter reading for in excess of two years now, when I got an estimated bill, or if the bill didn't materialize in or around the two-month time frame mentioned.

The next stage is letters to all board members at the registered address.


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## mathepac (6 Aug 2022)

I thought all my queries, phone calls, and exasperations with Electric Ireland (EI) ended on 25-Jul-2022 when we agreed on a final bill of €88.04Cr being issued to me. Then a smart-meter installer called to the house this morning …

He wanted to install the new meter, said he’d a few bits to take care of and that he’d call back.  I took the opportunity to take a reading and to photograph the old meter in situ. 15 minutes later he called back and said he couldn’t do anything today and that he’d call back on Monday.  I mumbled something and bade him good morning.  More of the same, this time from ESB Networks contractors.

I logged into my EI account to see what the state of play was and was shocked to see that my credit balance now showed a balance owing of €11.96, flagged as overdue!!  I checked through all correspondence from EI, gathered my evidence, and rang customer services. Halfway through explaining the intricacies of what a service company had subjected one of their customers to, the call disconnected. Eir (my phone) or EI, who knows who’s at fault, and does either company care?

I rang back, stated my case yet again, and got to a stage where the initial point of contact person could help me no further with either explanation as to what had happened or detailed corrective actions so I requested access to a supervisor, which request was granted immediately.  Undoubtedly the agent was glad to be rid of me.  I apologized to her for the position her employers placed her in having no decision-making authority and apparently no access to certain key information.

The supervisor explained that the past due notice on my account was created by “someone” deciding to reverse the €100 account renewal bonus I’d been awarded.  There was a problem identified with the contract and pending resolution, the bonus was debited to my account.  Queried as to why this happened without reference to me, he had no answer, but promised it would be re-credited. I offered the opinion that this was rather high-handed.  He said he couldn’t disagree with me.

I asked why I had a hard-copy letter dated 22-Jul-2022 confirming the resolution of a complaint reference xxxxxxxxxx, and why I had not been informed of the disposition of the complaint from early July, that’s July 2022.  He informed me that the letter confirming that my complaint had been upheld had been issued to me on the same date with an ex-gratia payment.  He believed the payment was by cheque but he couldn’t confirm the value.  My own belief is that the value will exceed the recent US lottery win of $1BN.  Apply via the mods if you want a slice.

I reminded the supervisor that with all the to-ing and fro-ing an old query about my Pay On-time Bonus remained unresolved.  The basic bonus is a 4% credit against the pre-VAT Electricity Charges.  If you opt for e-billing this is increased to 4.5%.  Historically all my bills have had 4% applied and I calculated I was owed a few quid.  We agreed on a figure over the phone to be credited to my account immediately and another little ex-gratia payment as the query had never been dealt with - more than enough to put my account back in the black.

I hope that’s the end of this saga but I won’t know for sure until all the account fiddlers in Electric Ireland have finished their work at the Fitzwilliam Street Fleadh Ceol, hopefully before the end of next week.

mathepac.


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## mathepac (8 Aug 2022)

Rather than appearing as an account with an overdue debit amount, my EI account now has the correct credit balance as calculated by me before the manual changes plus the additional once-off credit agreed over the week-end. 

The last time I had a consistent, correct balance showing on this account was 21 weeks ago on 16-Mar-2022.  Is this a record?


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