# Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose



## ali (5 Mar 2013)

I have a food business. It's relatively new although I have a lot of experience in restaurants etc. I serve really good food with locally sourced seasonal ingredients and organic produce where available and cost effective. 

The best advice I ever got was from my sister who works for a very large Irish food manufacturer. It is as follows:

"People like:
Ham Sandwiches
Vanilla Ice Cream
Strawberry Yoghurt

They prefer what they know."

I serve a lot of good stuff but people order predominantly the same familiar dishes from the menu and I've adapted to suit. My popular dishes outsell my more modern ones by 8 -1.

Whaddyiz think?

A.


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## Vanilla (5 Mar 2013)

Give us a few examples of what you think should sell but doesn't, then we can give some feedback.


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## ali (6 Mar 2013)

Hi Vanilla,

Prior to the horse meat controversy, home made burgers outsold everything by miles. Also fish and chips, chicken wings and steaks. Nothing wrong with any of the above and the quality of these items is great. If I do something that people would not be familiar with (not foie gras or veal or something someone might have an ethical issue with - more like beef carpaccio / roast pheasant / rabbit terrine / smoked venison / ) it sells but not in anything like the quantities of the more standard fare. I'm not complaining, merely observing that at the end of the day based on volume - the Irish consumer is not very adventurous.


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## Purple (6 Mar 2013)

If I was running a food business and posting on this site I'd edit my profile to show my location. I know you can't advertise but you could say where you are...


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## Protocol (6 Mar 2013)

ali said:


> I'm not complaining, merely observing that at the end of the day based on volume - the Irish consumer is not very adventurous.


 

This is true.

I have been on a few stags - steaks always very popular.

In bigger cities, there are "alternative" restaurants, e.g. Spanish food, tapas, etc.  But traditional menu still popular.


In France, Spain, etc., I will order even if I'm not sure what things are.

But my friends need to know an exact translation of the foreign menu - I call them fussy, picky.


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## Vanilla (6 Mar 2013)

Being adventurous about food is related to finances too, though.

Can people generally afford to try something new, knowing that if they don't like it they will have to buy an alternative?

BTW beef carpaccio/ roast pheasant etc sound good to me!


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## bullbars (7 Mar 2013)

ali said:


> If I do something that people would not be familiar with (not foie gras or veal or something someone might have an ethical issue with - more like beef carpaccio / roast pheasant / rabbit terrine / smoked venison / ) it sells but not in anything like the quantities of the more standard fare. I'm not complaining, merely observing that at the end of the day based on volume - the Irish consumer is not very adventurous.


I agree with this completely. I often heard this and discarded it as a mere generalisation but since I've lived abroad (across many countries) with other Irish people it really is an unfortunate reality in my opinion. Meals out tend to be gauged on where sells ‘normal’ food. 
Even with Steak – I cringe and near shake with rage when Irish people receive their steak, cooked to medium as requested, and send it back with the usual “That’s not fully cooked”. The side dish of chips never gets sent back funnily enough. Apparently Steak Tartare is just minced beef like you get from the butchers, not to be entertained.

The will to explore other cultures culinary dishes seem to range only to pizza and sweet and sour chicken from the local ‘Chinese’. A pasta dish means boiling the bejesus out of the pasta until soggy, add 1-2 jars of dolmio etc. + mince and serve. Interchange between spaghetti, the ‘shell’ one and the ‘twirly’ pasta for variety. Lasagna to be made in bulk, frozen and eaten piece-meal over the course of 8 weeks after being incinerated in the microwave. If cheese is used; cheddar – the reddest cheapest block of saturated rubber will do. Indian food is just described as curry. French food = frogs legs and Germans just eat Sausages. 

Vegetables must be boiled to a near pulp and thus devoid of real taste. Think baby food style. Don’t dare touch anything mammy did not cook at home. No more than 5-8 vegetable varieties are required.  

Potatoes -  Boiled. Mashed. Add copious amounts of butter and salt. They taste “too plain” otherwise.  If it’s a Sunday, add roast potatoes, drowned in lumpy instant gravy to taste. Do not offer any other condiments. I've heard chives referred to as ‘grass’, sour cream was thought to be spray on dessert style cream until tasted. 

Soup – it comes from a packet. It’s thin and the vegetables are minuscule flashes of red and green in the mustard coloured water. Do not trust the coarse gloop that has been offered, the ‘homemade’ label is just a trick to fool you didn't you know. The vegetables floating there-in are more than likely left over’s, sure why would they waste them in soup otherwise.

Chicken – Breast only, leave skin on. Wait for the inevitable “There are bones in this chicken piece!” If serving wings etc. be sure they are immersed in BBQ or similar MSG filled toxic waste for a few days before cooking. 

Sausages – do not dare tamper with the age old mix of 15%-30% actual pork and the rest unknown fillers. Those that endeavor to add spices/fruits/vegetables are to be classed as ‘weird’. Celebrate with much fanfare when mammy posts over the following: Denny/galtee etc. rashers, sausages and pudding.  

Stew – Traditional Irish stew was made with lamb and poor cuts of it at that. Just because your mother made it with cubed steak meat doesn’t make it traditional. It also requires vegetables in it. 

Sushi – EUGHHH it’s just RAW fish! Smoked Salmon is acceptable as it was brought out at Christmas. It wasn’t eaten much though.

Seafood – Following from above; fish arrives foil packaged a la ‘Donegal catch’ battered or bread crumbed. White coloured filling devoid of texture and taste. To find bones means this is an inferior product. Tuna steak is not a recognized term. Steak is beef and tuna comes from John West can don’t you know. Tuna is only to be used when mixed with sweet corn in advance of being mashed in to a baguette. If it has a ‘fish smell’ run, it’s going to kill you. Shell fish etc. are more than likely going to kill you due to the smell. 

Caviar – just fish eggs. What’s the point?  

Cheese – White cheddar or red cheddar. Easy singles are the perfect sandwich filling – sure they’re ready to go! Everything else smells gone off; that one looks funny, that one that has herbs/berries in it is not to be trusted. Ham goes with cheese. Nothing else- toasting is a delicacy. Mozzarella cheese is acceptable on pizza (within certain parameters- see below).

Pizza – There are only three pizzas that need to exist. Margherita / pepperoni or the one with all the meat on it. The more oil that runs off the pizza the juicier it is – Yes this was how someone described it. Remove red/green pepper as they could cause instant death.

Olive Oil – just fancy frying oil. What’s wrong with vegetable oil? When olive oil is served with balsamic vinegar accompanying a bread basket; promptly scoff at this and request butter. When butter arrives apply in chunks without waiting for it to soften. If a complimentary bread basket is served, go through it like a rabid dog and request another. Never pass an opportunity for free food. 

Bread – this comes from a pack in the form of sliced pan or as a roll in varying sizes from a “Cuisine De France” packet, cooked to perfection in the oven of the Deli in the local petrol station. Flavoured breads were probably going off soon so they needed to liven them up to get rid of them e.g. Bruschetta. 

Rabbit – for petting, not to be eaten.

Pheasant – too posh. People might think you’ve got notions about yourself.

Pigeon – To be seen at train stations. Not to be eaten. 

Venison – Akin to eating bambi/Rudolf. You are devouring the very definition of innocence. Why would you do such a thing?

The meal shall be judged on how full you are after. If it leaves you with a dose of ‘meat sweats’ and the need to barrel roll yourself out of you chair, then it gets 10/10. The flavours experienced are not really brought in to it as you wouldn’t have eaten all that if it didn’t taste good. Dessert = Ice-cream. Fruit or cheese platters are a sneaky way of getting rid of leftovers again. 



Vanilla said:


> Being adventurous about food is related to finances too, though. Can people generally afford to try something new, knowing that if they don't like it they will have to buy an alternative?


True but even when something different is offered as a sample or a “try some of mine”, Irish people play it safe!


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## Leper (7 Mar 2013)

. . . and the classic:- "Can I have some red sauce?" The words "tomato" or "please" if added take from the ambience . . .


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## bullbars (7 Mar 2013)

Leper said:


> . . . and the classic:- "Can I have some red sauce?" The words "tomato" or "please" if added take from the ambience . . .



How did I forget that!


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## PaddyW (7 Mar 2013)

bullbars said:


> Venison – Akin to eating bambi/Rudolf. You are devouring the very definition of innocence. Why would you do such a thing?



Oh sweet This post will be deleted if not edited immediately, that's exactly what my GF says! I have never tried it, but I really want to. Just figure out how to sneak it past her.

Oh and then she won't touch duck, because they look so beautiful swimming in ponds etc. To me, they're damn tasty and I'll eat 'em all!


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## bullbars (7 Mar 2013)

PaddyW said:


> Oh sweet This post will be deleted if not edited immediately, that's exactly what my GF says! I have never tried it, but I really want to. Just figure out how to sneak it past her.



Venison Stew. If she gets  a hint of the meat tasting different, pass it off as taste of the vegetables etc. in the mix!


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## Betsy Og (7 Mar 2013)

bullbars said:


> If a complimentary bread basket is served, go through it like a rabid dog and request another. Never pass an opportunity for free food.


 

Hi Bullbars, are you applying for the gig of food ambassador with Bord Bia/Failte Ireland 

Re the above, guilty as charged - but sure you havent eaten in days to get the full enjoyment out of a daycent restaurant.

Re portions - heard a story of a guy telling a lady that such a restaurant wasnt great, you'd still be hungry coming out of there. To which she replied, "You just have to decide in advance, are you "dining" or are you "going for a feed".

I think a lot of Irish people are "going for a feed", that explains much of the phonomemena detailed by Bullbars.

One thing that gets me is that 'herself', despite being obsessed with cookery shows & books and being somewhat of a foodie (though that word is cringeable), nevertheless isnt shy with lorrying the YR sauce onto nearly anything OR, cardinal sin in my book, adding something artificial (bisto/oxo etc) into what was going to otherwise be a perfectly fine healthy natural meal and thereby 'cheapening' the taste. I laugh when I see yer man Jean Pierre with his stir-in gloop cube - if thats the best you can do mate I wont be shelling out for your grub.


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## bullbars (7 Mar 2013)

Betsy Og said:


> Hi Bullbars, are you applying for the gig of food ambassador with Bord Bia/Failte Ireland


No.....or maybe...Could I just work at Dublin airport, questioning people as to their destinations and informing them of where the most convenient McDonalds outlets will be, you know because they don't trust the local stuff.



Betsy Og said:


> Re the above, guilty as charged - but sure you havent eaten in days to get the full enjoyment out of a daycent restaurant.


There are varying degrees here, for example if your food is taking a while or there are a large number at the table and there simply wasn't enough to go around, but some treat this as a free for all and are eating for the sake of getting it free.  



Betsy Og said:


> Re portions - heard a story of a guy telling a lady that such a restaurant wasnt great, you'd still be hungry coming out of there. To which she replied, "You just have to decide in advance, are you "dining" or are you "going for a feed".
> I think a lot of Irish people are "going for a feed", that explains much of the phonomemena detailed by Bullbars.



I know what you mean, there are times when food can be presented in such minuscule quantities that border on pretentious and just not enough but there is a difference between enjoying the food and gluttony. Irish people have difficulties differentiating between the two.



Betsy Og said:


> One thing that gets me is that 'herself', despite being obsessed with cookery shows & books and being somewhat of a foodie (though that word is cringeable), nevertheless isnt shy with lorrying the YR sauce onto nearly anything OR, cardinal sin in my book, adding something artificial (bisto/oxo etc) into what was going to otherwise be a perfectly fine healthy natural meal and thereby 'cheapening' the taste. I laugh when I see yer man Jean Pierre with his stir-in gloop cube - if thats the best you can do mate I wont be shelling out for your grub.


Yeah as Leper added; Irish people seem intent on murdering food with sauce. I've had this argument with some (Many  ) people; Ribs tend to be the usual example. They say the love ribs but it the sauce not the rib meat itself. I've seen some of the worst cuts of rib meat devoured without issue yet the perfectly cut and cooked piece of steak being rejected because "pink means it's not fully cooked"

To add to my previous post (Rant?) We seem unable to comprehend that asking the restaurant to parcel up left overs is not something to be ashamed off. Every morsel must be consumed there and then. If you are full, you force it down you regardless. Irish people seem to think the restaurant is gaining from your loss somehow, it's bewildering.


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## Purple (7 Mar 2013)

Great post above Bullbars.
Hard to disagree with any of it.


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## Vanilla (7 Mar 2013)

Jaysus Bullbars!  I think you needed to get that off your chest. Can't disagree with much of your post- except fresh fish shouldnt smell.


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## DrMoriarty (7 Mar 2013)

+1. Down to a tee.


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## PaddyW (7 Mar 2013)

bullbars said:


> Venison Stew. If she gets  a hint of the meat tasting different, pass it off as taste of the vegetables etc. in the mix!



That is a great idea. Will have to plan that, fair play!


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## Purple (7 Mar 2013)

PaddyW said:


> That is a great idea. Will have to plan that, fair play!



Eat it the day after you make it, it's always nicer the next day.


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## PaddyW (7 Mar 2013)

Purple said:


> Eat it the day after you make it, it's always nicer the next day.



Fair play Purple, thanks for the tip!


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## Seagull (7 Mar 2013)

Purple said:


> Eat it the day after you make it, it's always nicer the next day.


 
Does anyone remember a comment in a book about the family goulash that had been going for decades? Just top it up every day. I have no idea what the book was about.


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## Odea (8 Mar 2013)

Having said that we have a "fussy" eater who visits our house and it can be soul destroying to hear I don't eat that or that or that. And it's not just the main course it is the same for the desserts.


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## Vanilla (8 Mar 2013)

Seagull said:


> Does anyone remember a comment in a book about the family goulash that had been going for decades? Just top it up every day. I have no idea what the book was about.


 
I think I remember hearing that it was in Viz. 

People not liking fish is the most common one I encounter, but that's probably because we love fish in our house and easily eat it two or three times a week. When I was a child the only fish we ever had were either breaded, fish fingers or out of a tin! I thought I didn't like fish until I started eating fresh fish in my twenties.


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## ali (8 Mar 2013)

Ah bullbars it's not that bad I think! Some people are exactly as you describe and others are adventurous and keen to try new things but most people are afraid of getting it wrong and ruining a night or day out. So they stick to familiar tried and tested dishes. I tend to always pick something off a menu if I haven't tried it previously and have often been disappointed and jealous of my fellow diners and had my husband have to fend me off with a fork as I decide to share his dinner as a second option.

But in general, I find trying new food one of the most pleasurable things to do, and often you are rewarded with a gem of a new dish which I then add to my repertoire (though not always to my menu for customers).


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## Purple (8 Mar 2013)

Odea said:


> Having said that we have a "fussy" eater who visits our house and it can be soul destroying to hear I don't eat that or that or that. And it's not just the main course it is the same for the desserts.



When I cook for the kids one opf them may not like what they are given. I never make them eat it but I point out that it's not a restaurant and there's no option B; their choice is to eat their dinner or not eat their dinner. There's no "other" dinner on offer.


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## Vanilla (8 Mar 2013)

Purple said:


> When I cook for the kids one opf them may not like what they are given. I never make them eat it but I point out that it's not a restaurant and there's no option B; their choice is to eat their dinner or not eat their dinner. There's no "other" dinner on offer.


 
Same for adult guests?


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## ali (8 Mar 2013)

Vanilla said:


> Same for adult guests?



Would love to know the answer to this. I believe children should have a choice in what they eat (within reason) and eat what you get or go hungry was often the case years ago. 

However it still amazes me that my husband is happy to eat more or less whatever I put in front of him without any input while I start thinking about lunch and what I'd like about 9 o'clock in the morning! I shop for and cook what I fancy for each meal and everyone in my family gets my choices and seems fine with not making their own selections.


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## Boyd (9 Mar 2013)

ali said:


> I serve really good food with locally sourced seasonal ingredients



Arg....one of my pet peeves these days - such an annoying phrase! "Oh no i'd much prefer the out of season strawberries that taste like crap please". Every single restaurant/cafe is pedalling this phrase, even McDonalds.


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## Thirsty (9 Mar 2013)

> my husband is happy to eat more or less whatever I put in front of him without any input


That's known as being bone lazy....


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## bullbars (10 Mar 2013)

Vanilla said:


> Jaysus Bullbars!  I think you needed to get that off your chest. Can't disagree with much of your post- except fresh fish shouldnt smell.


I admittedly felt better after it, very therapeutic! I think the fish smell people refer to is an imaginary one, used as a get out to order the toasted ham and cheese sandwich & chips.


Odea said:


> Having said that we have a "fussy" eater who visits our house and it can be soul destroying to hear I don't eat that or that or that. And it's not just the main course it is the same for the desserts.


I will always picture my brother who for years started dinner by thoroughly inspecting his dinner and removing any trace of onions/ peppers / celery etc. It would take him nearly ten minutes before he was happy to eat it! 
On my don’t like list – celery & courgette; although I have eaten them when they are mixed through other ingredients. 


ali said:


> Ah bullbars it's not that bad I think! Some people are exactly as you describe and others are adventurous and keen to try new things but most people are afraid of getting it wrong and ruining a night or day out. So they stick to familiar tried and tested dishes. I tend to always pick something off a menu if I haven't tried it previously and have often been disappointed and jealous of my fellow diners and had my husband have to fend me off with a fork as I decide to share his dinner as a second option.


I’d agree that it can be an expensive experiment to try in a restaurant; but even as a starter or a “try some of this” invitation you get the frown and scrunched nose response “ no I wouldn’t be a fish person now” etc. etc.
I’ve tried some dishes that I didn’t like but it would never stop me trying something new again. I think it helps when you’ve a partner not afraid to go for the unknown as well.


ali said:


> But in general, I find trying new food one of the most pleasurable things to do, and often you are rewarded with a gem of a new dish which I then add to my repertoire (though not always to my menu for customers).


That’s the best bit – at times the tastiest dishes you find are quite easy to replicate and toy with to your own taste!


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## Purple (10 Mar 2013)

Vanilla said:


> Same for adult guests?


The children aren't guests, not strictly speaking anyway 



ali said:


> Would love to know the answer to this. I believe children should have a choice in what they eat (within reason) and eat what you get or go hungry was often the case years ago.
> 
> However it still amazes me that my husband is happy to eat more or less whatever I put in front of him without any input while I start thinking about lunch and what I'd like about 9 o'clock in the morning! I shop for and cook what I fancy for each meal and everyone in my family gets my choices and seems fine with not making their own selections.


I don't cook things that I know they don't like but if they say they don't like something today that they liked last week then tough luck to them. I certainly don't accept them saying that they don't like something they haven't tried yet. Way too many children are brought up on a a diet of high salt and high fat foods. It's no wonder they don't like proper food when they get older.


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