# The Anglo Tapes. Does anyone have any sympathy for the two guys?



## ajapale (24 Jun 2013)

I listened to the tapes today and was as shocked and outraged by the contents as everyone else.

However I though the "nervous laughter" and "gallows humour" showed two very frightened individuals coming to grips with the enormity of what was coming down the tracks.


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## DerKaiser (24 Jun 2013)

No sympathy, but sounded like a couple of guys completely out of their depth. The real ringmasters will not have been stupid enough to discuss anything remotely incriminating over the phone or by mail.


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## Betsy Og (24 Jun 2013)

They seemed to know exactly what they were doing, I hope the expleters get everything that is coming to them, if that's not treason then what is?? The thing they wanted to save was themselves, they knew the bank was a lost cause - then lies and half-truths hooked the taxpayer. FUMING


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## mugga (25 Jun 2013)

Heard the tapes this eve--no sympathy for them at all. Where did the tapes come from?  How did they become public? I never caught that bit.


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## SoylentGreen (25 Jun 2013)

One of them came across to me as being a bit "thick".


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## p15574 (25 Jun 2013)

mugga said:


> Heard the tapes this eve--no sympathy for them at all. Where did the tapes come from?  How did they become public? I never caught that bit.



All landline calls to and from Anglo offices were taped as a matter of course. I'm sure there's a lot more where they came from. Not sure how the Indo got their hands on them though - perhaps an insider as sick as we are of no inquiry to date


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## Duke of Marmalade (25 Jun 2013)

No sympathy.  The bit that really sticks in my craw is where they look forward to being civil servants under nationalisation - "can't lose our jobs".  Did you know that we paid these two goons €300k per annum each for 4 years as civil servants.

But let's not overplay the "we were duped" angle.  The ploy to sucker the CBI in for €7bn and then get more on the drip didn't actually work - though they are damned for even plotting it.

The official side were not stupid - they knew it was far worse than a mere €7bn ELA.  They saw the abyss - 100s of billions in wholesale money that would flee the Irish banking system not to mention the ordinary depositors bank run.  This was Armageddon and throwing a few bob at Anglo wasn't going to help.  It needed the Master Stroke.  They may even have suspected and glimpsed at the possibility of an enormous solvency hole.  But as Antion Murphy and Donal Donovan argue, even if they knew then what we know now the Guarantee was the only move - it bought time.

The tapes display deeply cynical and arrogant attitudes at the top in Anglo but they do not prove we were duped into the blanket guarantee.  These people had wreaked their havoc over the previous 5 years, it was too late for the Irish citizen to escape the holocaust which was being visited on them.


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## demoivre (25 Jun 2013)

The tapes are indicative of the contempt that bankers in general hold for the public though to have such a conversation knowing it's on tape is extraordinary.  That said you will not find a more arrogant and smug bunch of people. It beggars belief that Bowe was head of corporate development with the IBRC until April last year. And it's even more unbelievable that Neary walked off with a golden handshake of €630000 and a pension of €142000 per year, for a job well done .


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## Knuttell (25 Jun 2013)

No sympathy whatsoever,these incompetent donkeys have ruined the State,not just in the short term,their greed have cost incalculable pain to many.

I have heard the phrase Masters of the Universe used to describe them which is just utterly tremendously laughable,my over riding memory of Drummer will be of a man trying to hide behind a sofa in his living room,while Charlie Bird stood outside his front door with a camera crew at his American mansion.

*"have some respect Charlie" *he bleated several times.

Wonder what his Wife and Kids made of it.

Yeah real master of the universe alright.


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## Purple (25 Jun 2013)

Knuttell said:


> No sympathy whatsoever,these incompetent donkeys have ruined the State,not just in the short term,their greed have cost incalculable pain to many.
> 
> I have heard the phrase Masters of the Universe used to describe them which is just utterly tremendously laughable,my over riding memory of Drummer will be of a man trying to hide behind a sofa in his living room,while Charlie Bird stood outside his front door with a camera crew at his American mansion.
> 
> ...



That's the most damning thing you can say about anyone; you make Charlie Bird look good.


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## Delboy (25 Jun 2013)

demoivre said:


> ... It beggars belief that Bowe was head of corporate development with the IBRC until April last year....



that needs answering by the current Govt...why were these sort of people let stay in their jobs? And Anglo was immune from PS paycuts too if I recall correctly


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## cork (25 Jun 2013)

Delboy said:


> that needs answering by the current Govt...why were these sort of people let stay in their jobs? And Anglo was immune from PS paycuts too if I recall correctly



I think that the Dept. Of Finance, Regulator and Central Bank have many serious questions to answer.


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## AgathaC (25 Jun 2013)

Sympathy? Absolutely not.


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## DerKaiser (25 Jun 2013)

In fairness, the skit on Neary was pretty funny though!


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## dewdrop (26 Jun 2013)

What i cant understand is why this kind of debacle did not happen sooner. We constantly hear that banking is very complex and the need for experts
to deal with the issues.  I disagree. I worked in a bank for over 45 years and in my view the basic problem is simple. Banks borrow money and then lend some of it on. In the fifties i often heard that when banks borrowed funds they lent one third, kept another third in cash and invested remainder in very short dated safe government stocks. This of course limited the amount they could lend but it also protected banks from a "run on their deposits" as they could handle such a situation. Memories of such "runs" were familiar to older customers.  Overtime banks began to borrow from large institutions and the make up of their funding made them much more vulnerable and they also increased the level of their lending vis a vis deposits. Apologies for the ramble but in my view it was waiting to happen.


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## TRS30 (26 Jun 2013)

Will we ever reach a 'tipping point' where enough people will say enough is enough and something will be done/change or will we forever be 'outraged' for a few days, do nothing and then wait for the next revelation?


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## Bronte (26 Jun 2013)

ajapale said:


> I listened to the tapes today and was as shocked and outraged by the contents as everyone else.
> 
> .


 
Absolutely no sympathy, and am not able to read the article nor listen to the tapes as it would be bad for my health.  No doubt here on LOS my seriously negative thoughts are documented on this a few years ago, since then I've been trying to get over it.  

David Drumm is an odious man.  I'll leave it at that for today.


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## Betsy Og (26 Jun 2013)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> But let's not overplay the "we were duped" angle. The ploy to sucker the CBI in for €7bn and then get more on the drip didn't actually work - though they are damned for even plotting it.
> 
> The official side were not stupid - they knew it was far worse than a mere €7bn ELA. They saw the abyss - 100s of billions in wholesale money that would flee the Irish banking system not to mention the ordinary depositors bank run. This was Armageddon and throwing a few bob at Anglo wasn't going to help. It needed the Master Stroke.


 
I think the only point most people make is that Anglo was not crucial to the functioning of the Irish economy and if only BOI and AIB were covered by the guarantee we'd have avoided a fair slice of misery.


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## Marion (26 Jun 2013)

A lot done more to do.

More revelations to appear tomorrow and into the weekend according to Paul Williams.

Marion


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## Gerry Canning (26 Jun 2013)

Betsy Og said:


> I think the only point most people make is that Anglo was not crucial to the functioning of the Irish economy and if only BOI and AIB were covered by the guarantee we'd have avoided a fair slice of misery.


.........................................................................................

We would have avoided 50%. The other 50% is HUGE , we have I think lost perspective on just HOW much a billion is: AIB so far has cost us 20 Billion, from watching AIB,s business antics over the years I await their whistleblowers.
Boi appear to have been the (least) worst.
Irish Nationwide, makes me shudder.
Ptsb, I think there is a lot to be asked in their Mortgage sales.

On the initial thread;

No sympathy, with Power and High Wages comes Responsibility.
I believe Bankers as a General Body acted incompetently but @ all times with MALICE AFORETHOUGHT !!


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## Purple (26 Jun 2013)

TRS30 said:


> Will we ever reach a 'tipping point' where enough people will say enough is enough and something will be done/change or will we forever be 'outraged' for a few days, do nothing and then wait for the next revelation?



The question is what is the “something”?

We need departments of finance and justice that are capable of writing robust and comprehensive legislation around white collar crime.
We need a central bank that is capable of understanding the banking sector that they are meant to oversee.
We need a financial/banking regulator that understands banking and finances.
We need a public that understand that anger is not a policy or a solution and sound-bites and whipping-boys only serve to mask the deeper systemic issues and failings that are the true root cause of these complex problems and that the solutions to those problems will take years to fully implement.


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## TRS30 (26 Jun 2013)

Purple said:


> The question is what is the “something”?
> 
> We need departments of finance and justice that are capable of writing robust and comprehensive legislation around white collar crime.
> We need a central bank that is capable of understanding the banking sector that they are meant to oversee.
> ...



Purple

If I for one minute thought that even half those things would occur in my lifetime I could cling to some small flicker of hope. However my overriding feeling is that my grandchildren will be feeling the same dismay and hopelessness that I feel as these revelation will never end.


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## cork (26 Jun 2013)

Purple said:


> The question is what is the “something”?
> 
> We need departments of finance and justice that are capable of writing robust and comprehensive legislation around white collar crime.
> We need a central bank that is capable of understanding the banking sector that they are meant to oversee.
> ...



The sight of politicians using it as a political football yesterday was yet another low.

We need all the above not political posturing.


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## Duke of Marmalade (26 Jun 2013)

DerKaiser said:


> No sympathy, but sounded like a couple of guys completely out of their depth. The real ringmasters will not have been stupid enough to discuss anything remotely incriminating over the phone or by mail.


I don't know, the CEO, the Director of Retail and the Director of Capital Markets seem pretty senior to me.  Are you suggesting that there is some Professor Moriarty style mastermind behind the whole thing who we will never suspect.  Who have you in mind?  Daniel O'Donnell?  Michelle Obama?


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## Duke of Marmalade (26 Jun 2013)

Betsy Og said:


> I think the only point most people make is that Anglo was not crucial to the functioning of the Irish economy and if only BOI and AIB were covered by the guarantee we'd have avoided a fair slice of misery.


We will never know how that counterfactual would have played out but I tend to agree with Antoin Murphy (Fall of Celtic Tiger) that by September 2008 the damage was done.  I certainly agree that Fingers' outfit should have been allowed hit the wall, including depositors.


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## dereko1969 (26 Jun 2013)

Purple said:


> The question is what is the “something”?
> 
> *We need departments of finance and justice that are capable of writing robust and comprehensive legislation around white collar crime*.
> We need a central bank that is capable of understanding the banking sector that they are meant to oversee.
> ...


 
Civil Servants don't write legislation they've not been asked to, so there needs to be political will to bring in such legislation, I think the ability is there.



cork said:


> The sight of politicians using it as a political football yesterday was yet another low.
> 
> We need all the above not political posturing.


 
So investigating the reasons for this whole thing will not have any political ramifications? Typical FF posturing, they know any proper investigation will show just how corrupt that party was and still is.


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## DerKaiser (26 Jun 2013)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> I don't know, the CEO, the Director of Retail and the Director of Capital Markets seem pretty senior to me. Are you suggesting that there is some Professor Moriarty style mastermind behind the whole thing who we will never suspect. Who have you in mind? Daniel O'Donnell? Michelle Obama?


 
Mick Wallace!

No seriously, I was encouraged when David Drumm turned up on the tapes, so maybe there is enough recorded info to incriminate himself and Seanie.


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## Marion (26 Jun 2013)

I presume all calls - internal and external - were recorded.

Who knows who might turn up?

Marion


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## Betsy Og (26 Jun 2013)

Should they not have used their mobiles?

Of course I'm against all crime, but sloppyness is just unforgiveable !!


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## Marion (26 Jun 2013)

Betsy Og said:


> Should they not have used their mobiles?
> 
> 
> Only if they were PAYG. I watched The Wire
> ...


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## dereko1969 (26 Jun 2013)

Interesting post-levenson inquiry that no-one seems to have asked who provided the information to the Indo and why now and what isn't being released. 

I definitely think it's in the public interest but I would have a concern that it could prejudice a trial, who knows.


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## Liamos (26 Jun 2013)

Betsy Og said:


> Should they not have used their mobiles?
> 
> Of course I'm against all crime, but sloppyness is just unforgiveable !!



Mobile phone records could probably be accessed as well.


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## TarfHead (26 Jun 2013)

dereko1969 said:


> Interesting post-levenson inquiry that no-one seems to have asked who provided the information to the Indo and why now and what isn't being released.


 
+1

especially '_why now_'.


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## DrMoriarty (26 Jun 2013)

Indeed.


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## Betsy Og (26 Jun 2013)

Liamos said:


> Mobile phone records could probably be accessed as well.


 
While of course they could say who rang who, when and for how long (& then only with the co-operation of the phone providers), I wouldnt have thought the conversations themselves are taped  - or at least until we annoy the CIA sufficiently I doubt they are coming to light !!


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## shnaek (26 Jun 2013)

Same old story with this farce of a country. Nothing will be done.


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## Purple (26 Jun 2013)

dereko1969 said:


> Interesting post-levenson inquiry that no-one seems to have asked who provided the information to the Indo and why now and what isn't being released.
> 
> I definitely think it's in the public interest but I would have a concern that it could prejudice a trial, who knows.



I presume these recordings (I doubt they were actually tapes) were with the Gardai and/or DPP for the last year or so. The leak(s) probably came from one of them.


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## dereko1969 (26 Jun 2013)

Purple said:


> I presume these recordings (I doubt they were actually tapes) were with the Gardai and/or DPP for the last year or so. The leak(s) probably came from one of them.


 
Oh yeah I'm fairly sure it's one or the other, I just hope no one got paid for them and that it was done in the public interest rather than for gelt.


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## Holtend82 (26 Jun 2013)

Hopefully nobody got paid for the tapes, if so it is very unethical for the Irish Indo to be paying for these tapes (good story or not).


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## Purple (26 Jun 2013)

dereko1969 said:


> Civil Servants don't write legislation they've not been asked to, so there needs to be political will to bring in such legislation, I think the ability is there.



That's a complete cop-out. There's plenty of legislation in place in this area, it's just no bloody good.


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## delgirl (30 Jun 2013)

David Drumm says sorry!

Charges now need to be brought against Mr Drumm and the US asked to extradite him! His E-2 US Visa is a farce and should be revoked immediately.

The Irish authorities managed to extradite Conrad Gallagher from the US for allegedly stealing 3 paintings from the Fitzwilliam Hotel, David Drumm is responsible for a lot more than that.


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## Liamos (4 Jul 2013)

We are a great country all the same. Now Michael Noonan is saying that some of the evidence in the Anglo case could be contaminated.

We will i'm sure, also have defence lawyers claiming that there is no possibility of a fair trial for their clients. 

Oh to have the American justice system here!


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## Betsy Og (4 Jul 2013)

Liamos said:


> We are a great country all the same. Now Michael Noonan is saying that some of the evidence in the Anglo case could be contaminated.
> 
> We will i'm sure, also have defence lawyers claiming that there is no possibility of a fair trial for their clients.
> 
> Oh to have the American justice system here!


 
hmmmm, there seems to be a lot of hand-wringing legal advice in this country, particularly when it comes to saving the taxpayer from being shafted/justice for the people. I'd say Mikey, haul them into court, hit them with both barrels and let the judge be seen to be the one to let them off the hook, if he dares!


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## DoctorEvil (8 Jul 2013)

Liamos said:


> We are a great country all the same. Now Michael Noonan is saying that some of the evidence in the Anglo case could be contaminated.
> 
> We will i'm sure, also have defence lawyers claiming that there is no possibility of a fair trial for their clients.
> 
> Oh to have the American justice system here!



Today we have them on tape practically admitting to market abuse and 5 years down the line nothing has been done about it. Why? Because they were doing it in full view of the regulator and nothing was said!


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