# Form 12 Who gets one?



## MC D (27 Dec 2008)

Sorry if the question seems silly but last week my Brother who is a paye worker received a form 12 which has to be filled by the 31st October 2009. He never received one before and was asking me did i ever get one (i haven't ). So i'm just wondering how does a person get one ?


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## Graham_07 (27 Dec 2008)

Form 12 is generally sent to PAYE workers, PAYE pensioners and other persons who do not come within the remit of the self-assessment Form 11.  Revenue are indeed on top of things this year sending out Forms 12 to people for 2008 even before the year end. The actual process by which one receives a Form 12 may sometimes be haphazard. Once one gets a form 12 it's likely that one will issue each year. One can also request a form or file the details online at ROS PAYE section. If you want a paper form it can be downloaded from Revenue but I don't see the 2008 one up there yet.


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## MC D (27 Dec 2008)

Thanks graham most of the questions are n/a to my brother anyway and his tax is deducted at source so his tax should all be in order.Think the size of the form scared the life out of him and i don't think anyone likes to get a letter from the taxman


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## measures (5 Jan 2009)

Just because your brother is on PAYE doesn't mean he can ignore a Form 12 if it was sent to him - he is obliged to fill it in and submit it.
It could, of course, lead to him getting money back


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## ClubMan (5 Jan 2009)

Graham_07 said:


> Form 12 is generally sent to PAYE workers, PAYE pensioners and other persons who do not come within the remit of the self-assessment Form 11.


Sent to *SOME *_PAYE _workers etc. sometimes. In 20+ years working I think I received one from _Revenue _once. For a variety of reasons at the time I just ignored it. My tax affairs have always been kept up to date so I was not really that concerned. There have been no repercussions since (this was around 2001).


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## Stapeler (6 Jan 2009)

I received Form12 in 2003 which I ignored, again in 2004 & 2005 which I ignored. Only when I submitted a Med1 did I get a response from revenue indicating that it would not be processed until all Form12's were returned. Returned all Form12s, Med1 processed and haven't received one since.  Revenue say that they will continue to send a new one each year until they're returned.


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## Graham_07 (6 Jan 2009)

ClubMan said:


> Sent to *SOME *_PAYE _workers etc. sometimes. In 20+ years working I think I received one from _Revenue _once. For a variety of reasons at the time I just ignored it. My tax affairs have always been kept up to date so I was not really that concerned. There have been no repercussions since (this was around 2001).


 
I would say more than some. In my 20+ years as an accountant in practice I have seen many PAYE workers who did receive F12's. Granted some never receive them, others get them every year. There does not appear to be a definite policy on issuing them and whatever policies there are seem to differ from tax district to district.


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## Towger (6 Jan 2009)

Graham_07 said:


> I would say more than some. In my 20+ years as an accountant in practice I have seen many PAYE workers who did receive F12's. Granted some never receive them, others get them every year. There does not appear to be a definite policy on issuing them and whatever policies there are seem to differ from tax district to district.


 
There is going to be a problem with many people under paying the income levy, if they have two jobs etc. It will be interesting to see how Revenue handle them, as "interest and penalties will be due". In theory every one/couple in the country should fill in Form 11 or 12 (much like the in the States etc), but at the moment Revenue don't have the 'processing (man) power' to handle this. But there are plenty of civil servants available to redeploy....


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## ClubMan (6 Jan 2009)

Graham_07 said:


> I would say more than some. In my 20+ years as an accountant in practice I have seen many PAYE workers who did receive F12's. Granted some never receive them, others get them every year. There does not appear to be a definite policy on issuing them and whatever policies there are seem to differ from tax district to district.


Neither I nor many of friends, family and colleagues over the years have received one over many years. In my work I have always been dealing with the _North Dublin PAYE _section.

Bu the way...

I also was classed as self assessed due to the acquisition of some shares via my employer's _ESPP _a few years back but again I didn't do anything about it (other than paying the tax due via _RTSO1 _within 30 days and, as ever, ensuring that my tax affairs were up to date). I wrote to them about this querying what was required and asking if, as the non _PAYE _nominal income was under €3,175, the matter could instead be dealt with via the _PAYE _system but they never bothered to reply. I since updated tax matters and got a _P21 _balancing statement for the year in question with no problems. Although the _PAYE _online system did not allow me to do things online. For various reasons the _ESPP _was not available for a few years but was reactivated in 2008, and because I had non _PAYE _nominal income in respect of _ESPP _shares I again did the _RTSO1 _payment and they have me down as self assessed for 2008 once again. This meant that I could not do my _MED1 _expenses via the online system so I have just sent in the form and will see what happens. I also wrote to them again asking about the €3,175 thing and will see if they deign to reply this time. Seems crazy that you become self assessed just because you receive some (in this case < €2K) non _PAYE _nominal income... 



Towger said:


> In theory every one/couple in the country should fill in Form 11 or 12


I don't believe that this is true. As long as the _PAYE _individual keeps their tax affairs up to date a return should not be necessary as far as I know. I have always just written to _Revenue _about specific tax related issues to get them to update their files and it worked fine.


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## Graham_07 (6 Jan 2009)

ClubMan said:


> Seems crazy that you become self assessed just because you receive some (in this case < €2K) non _PAYE _nominal income...


 
I often groan when I see an apparently mainly PAYE individual coming in with a F11 which they got merely because they had some small non-PAYE income. The self-assessment system should be revised to deal with such cases on F12. ( I know some items such as small amounts or rental incomes can be dealt with on F12 but since F12 cannot collect PRSI/Levies Revenue are losing out in some such cases ). 

Even with advances in technology there are walls between the PAYE and self-assessed systems which makes for lack of communication of information between them. This can give rise to the frustrations you encountered.


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## Towger (6 Jan 2009)

ClubMan said:


> I don't believe that this is true. As long as the _PAYE _individual keeps their tax affairs up to date a return should not be necessary as far as I know. I have always just written to _Revenue _about specific tax related issues to get them to update their files and it worked fine.


 
This is what I was told by Revenue, and the only reason for not doing it was man/computer power. As for Form 11 and 12, for years they were sending me out both, but I just returned Form 12, as is was shorter and none of the extra fields applied  Then two years ago, when I sent it in, they sent it back with a snotty letter stating that as I earned over 3k non PAYE I should send in Form 11. So I filled in the same fields in Form 12 with my 4k and sent that in. A total waste of tax payer’s resources.

BTW: I don't do ROS, the more you know about things the less you trust them...


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## ClubMan (6 Jan 2009)

Graham_07 said:


> I often groan when I see an apparently mainly PAYE individual coming in with a F11 which they got merely because they had some small non-PAYE income. The self-assessment system should be revised to deal with such cases on F12. ( I know some items such as small amounts or rental incomes can be dealt with on F12 but since F12 cannot collect PRSI/Levies Revenue are losing out in some such cases ).


As it happens it was my understanding (from reading up on the tax treatment of stock options recently) that (non _Revenue _approved) _ESPP _nominal income was *not *subject to _PRSI_.* Not sure about the levy but that's only relevant from 2009 onwards.

What really annoys me is that I get hassle (e.g. classed as self assessed) because I did the right thing and paid my _ESPP _tax via _RTSO1_. I know of colleagues who didn't bother and don't get this hassle. On the other hand they do now have outstanding liabilities and I presume that the issue should easily come to light via the company's _P35 _(?) return and they may face even more hassle than just being classed as self assessed. And no - I have not grassed them up.

* Update: see here:


> *9.3 Will I pay PRSI and Health Levies on the exercise of share options?*
> The gain on the exercise of share options is not reckonable income for PRSI or Health Levies purposes.


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## Graham_07 (6 Jan 2009)

ClubMan said:


> As it happens it was my understanding (from reading up on the tax treatment of stock options recently) that (non _Revenue _approved) _ESPP _nominal income was *not *subject to _PRSI_.* Not sure about the levy but that's only relevant from 2009 onwards.


 
I was referring to PRSI and the Health Levy as is already chargeable on other non-PAYE income such as rents, etc.  There are some items exempt from PRSI such as you mentioned but some other sources are chargeable to PRSI & Levies. Self-assessment Notices of Assessment coming from filing F11  have the facility for Revenue to collect these where due. They cannot be collected on PAYE Balancing Statements coming from filing F12.


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## MC D (6 Jan 2009)

should he fill it out it then. He has no other income bar what he earns and he pays his tax on that. Should he just write down the details from his p.60  and send it off


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## ClubMan (6 Jan 2009)

While I ignored one (_Form 12 _sent out unilaterally by _Revenue_) a few years back if I got one today I would be inclined to fill it in and return it. I think he may need more than just the _P60 _details as it also asks for info about other stuff like deposit accounts etc.


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## MC D (6 Jan 2009)

ah grand clubman. Any money that he has on deposit is subject to dirt tax anyway and he worked hard for those savings anyway and paid his tax on his earnings. He has nothing to hide but was just wondering how he never got one before?


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## Towger (6 Jan 2009)

MC D said:


> ah grand clubman. Any money that he has on deposit is subject to dirt tax anyway and he worked hard for those savings anyway and paid his tax on his earnings. He has nothing to hide but was just wondering how he never got one before?


 
So it is, but if he pays tax at the higher rate.....


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## ClubMan (6 Jan 2009)

Doesn't matter - even high rate taxpayers have no tax liability other than _DIRT _on deposit interest (other than, say, on offshore accounts etc.). Although if the deposit interest (or total non _PAYE _income including deposit interest?) is above €3,175 then I think that _PRSI _and/or health levy may apply? I'm open to correction on that.


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## ClubMan (7 Jan 2009)

_Revenue_ did reply this time and have told me that while there is some provision for non _PAYE _income under €3,175 p.a. to be dealt with via adjustments to ones tax credits this does not apply in the case of stock options (presumably covering both shares acquired through _ESOPs _and _ESPPs_). I can find nothing about this exception on the _Revenue _website. Does anybody know if they are correct? Is there absolutely no way of getting out of being classed as self assessed in the case of non _PAYE _nominal income attributable to shares acquired through an _ESPP _at a discount to the market price?


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## Mercantilist (7 Jan 2009)

Am I allowed to fill out ROS instead of filling out Form 12, as its a lot simpler and easier to fill out?

I received a letter asking that I fill out Form 12, but I would rather use the ROS system to declare the small amount ($3k) of foreign income I received last year. Can I do that instead?


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## ClubMan (7 Jan 2009)

Mercantilist said:


> Am I allowed to fill out ROS instead of filling out Form 12, as its a lot simpler and easier to fill out?


As far as I know you can register for _ROS _and use it. In fact in your case since you have non _PAYE _income it may be that you *MUST *do this or at least somehow do a _Form 11 _self assessment return.


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## Mercantilist (8 Jan 2009)

ClubMan said:


> As far as I know you can register for _ROS _and use it. In fact in your case since you have non _PAYE _income it may be that you *MUST *do this or at least somehow do a _Form 11 _self assessment return.



Ive been using ROS to declare small amounts of foreign income every year, for the  last few years. But now they want Form 12 done. I would like to continue using ROS.

Ive emailed them to ask, but as yet no response.


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## Mercantilist (8 Jan 2009)

Mercantilist said:


> Ive been using ROS to declare small amounts of foreign income every year, for the  last few years. But now they want Form 12 done. I would like to continue using ROS.
> 
> Ive emailed them to ask, but as yet no response.



Looks like my question has been answered. Just tried to login to ROS to declare foreign income. Got the following message

"Unfortunately we cannot process your Request as you have a PAYE return (Form 12, Form 12D, Form 11E) outstanding."

So the Revenue prefer people to use Form 12 over ROS.


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## Towger (8 Jan 2009)

Mercantilist said:


> So the Revenue prefer people to use Form 12 over ROS.


 
Revenue and ROS are to different entities, and I have gotten the impression there is no love lost between them!


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## ClubMan (8 Jan 2009)

Towger said:


> Revenue and ROS are to different entities


Are you really sure about that? I thought that _ROS (*Revenue *Online Services) _was simply an online service run by _Revenue_?


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## ClubMan (31 Jan 2009)

Yes - just register for _ROS _and do your return there. In fact if you have $3K of non _PAYE_ foreign income then you probably *SHOULD *be self assessed anyway. If in doubt get professional advice.


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