# Electric Heaters



## eisfspike (5 Sep 2019)

Hi All,

Can anyone recommend an energy efficient electric heater for a large room? I know all electric heaters are efficent as they convert all energy to heat but I am wondering if I am better going for a storage heater (if they are still around) and letting it charge up over night? Are the electric heaters still very costly to run or have they improved in recent years does anyone know

Thanks


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## elcato (5 Sep 2019)

I bought a Lucht 1200w heater for about 480 a few years ago. They are a simple plugin all the time ones that heat day and night which cost the same roughly as a storage heater - about 1 euro a day. The beauty is that you can switch them on/off immediately rather than wait 24 hours.


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## eisfspike (5 Sep 2019)

Thanks a million. How long would you have it on for the €1 a day price? This would be on in the evenings only. Thanks


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## elcato (5 Sep 2019)

I leave it on all day as it regulates itself once the desired temp is reached. I tried using a timer for a few hours before I came home and early in the morning but the savings wasn't that spectacular.


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## SparkRite (5 Sep 2019)

Storage heaters generally are still the most cost effective electric heaters, as you can avail of cheaper night rate electricity to charge them.
They still lack the 'control'  that instant heaters offer but most/all offer a mid day boost if needed on colder days.


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## fizzy (5 Sep 2019)

In terms of thermal comfort, the lucht heaters are a world apart from storage heaters. They feel like proper central heating & work on demand which is much better. No more expensive to run than storage / panel heaters & possibly a bit cheaper depending on occupancy etc. All electric heating is still expensive mind.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (5 Sep 2019)

elcato said:


> I bought a Lucht 1200w heater for about 480 a few years ago. They are a simple plugin all the time ones that heat day and night which cost the same roughly as a storage heater - about 1 euro a day. The beauty is that you can switch them on/off immediately rather than wait 24 hours.



It depends on your lifestyle

In my 20s I house shared in a rental. I had a small bedroom and wasn't home much, and not predictably. All I did in the kitchen was cook, which tended to heat the place up.

I had a 1000w plug-in heater which had the room comfortably warm in about 15 minutes. This was cheaper than using storage heaters which were on when I wasn't around.


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## Leo (6 Sep 2019)

fizzy said:


> In terms of thermal comfort, the lucht heaters are a world apart from storage heaters.



Are you saying you the heat from one feels different to the heat from another? 

In relation to cost, the on-demand heaters will cost roughly twice as much to produce the same amount of heat as a storage heater, as there is little to nothing between them in terms of efficiency. The difference will come in your usage patterns, and it's that which should drive a decision on which is best for a particular scenario.


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## fizzy (6 Sep 2019)

Leo said:


> Are you saying you the heat from one feels different to the heat from another?
> 
> In relation to cost, the on-demand heaters will cost roughly twice as much to produce the same amount of heat as a storage heater, as there is little to nothing between them in terms of efficiency. The difference will come in your usage patterns, and it's that which should drive a decision on which is best for a particular scenario.



Yes, the heat feels like proper central heating rather than the dry, stuffy heat traditional electric heaters give.

Plus vs storage heaters, it's a constant heat on demand rather than the nightly build up & then inflexible day output.

The lucht heaters are designed to only use electricity for around half the time they are on, with a ceramic panel that holds the heat better than panel heaters & they have a thermostat to set the temp too.

Honestly, they are a different ball game from traditional electric heaters & make the world of difference if you are stuck with electric heating.


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## Leo (6 Sep 2019)

fizzy said:


> Yes, the heat feels like proper central heating rather than the dry, stuffy heat traditional electric heaters give.



Radiant heat is radiant heat, any perceived differences will be psychological. Some storage and other electric heaters include fans to add a convection element, this can have a drying effect. Radiant heaters will promote a certain amount of convection also as warm air rises to be replaced by cooler. The Lucht heaters use an increased surface area of fins to encourage more convection.  



fizzy said:


> Plus vs storage heaters, it's a constant heat on demand rather than the nightly build up & then inflexible day output.



That's where the usage pattern comes into play. If the house is occupied most of the day, storage heaters will offer a significantly cheaper option assuming they are sized and set up properly.  



fizzy said:


> The lucht heaters are designed to only use electricity for around half the time they are on, with a ceramic panel that holds the heat better than panel heaters & they have a thermostat to set the temp too.



That's the way pretty much any electrical heater will work. Lucht and a number of other brands use ceramic plates to build a thermal mass, other materials are used also, but the material makes no difference to the quality of the heat, just the rate is dissipates at. Oil is a better medium than ceramic for stabilising the cycling effect of the heating/ cooling cycle, but they are bulkier.


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## fizzy (6 Sep 2019)

Leo said:


> Radiant heat is radiant heat, any perceived differences will be psychological. Some storage and other electric heaters include fans to add a convection element, this can have a drying effect. Radiant heaters will promote a certain amount of convection also as warm air rises to be replaced by cooler. The Lucht heaters use an increased surface area of fins to encourage more convection.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



We can agree to disagree. Having suffered with traditional electric heating for a decade & then switching to mainly lucht since, the difference is far from just psychological!


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## Leo (6 Sep 2019)

fizzy said:


> We can agree to disagree. Having suffered with traditional electric heating for a decade & then switching to mainly lucht since, the difference is far from just psychological!



Unless they're rewriting the laws of physics (which Lucht make no claim to do by the way), then psychology plays a role.


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## elcato (7 Sep 2019)

I have had both for an extended period and I would be inclined to think the lucht is more efficient. You can set the lucht to holiday mode so that it comes on when you get back. You can also switch off if you get some warm days all of a sudden without getting caught out and having to wait 24 hours. I have no connection with them btw.


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## lledlledlled (8 Sep 2019)

If at all possible I would avoid using electricity to heat space or water. 
The only exception to this would be storage heating, but only if the space was occupied during daytime hours, and the occupants don't mind adjusting settings and timers occasionally


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## NoRegretsCoyote (8 Sep 2019)

lledlledlled said:


> If at all possible I would avoid using electricity to heat space or water.


Gas has a high fixed cost and you will have an electricity connection anyway.

Electricity is obviously less efficient for space and water heating. But what if you have a small, well-insulated apartment and you are rarely home? We once lived in a second-floor, south-facing apartment and only needed the gas boiler on about four months of the year for space heating.

I'd be happy to see the sums on this if anyone has done them.


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## SparkRite (8 Sep 2019)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> Electricity is obviously less efficient for space and water heating.



I would argue the exact opposite, ie. Electricity is obviously more efficient for space and water heating.

However it may be less cost effective than other methods.


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## lledlledlled (8 Sep 2019)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> Gas has a high fixed cost and you will have an electricity connection anyway.
> 
> Electricity is obviously less efficient for space and water heating. But what if you have a small, well-insulated apartment and you are rarely home? We once lived in a second-floor, south-facing apartment and only needed the gas boiler on about four months of the year for space heating.
> 
> I'd be happy to see the sums on this if anyone has done them.



If I owed the apartment,  I'd install gas. If I was renting and intended moving in the short to medium term, I might consider electrical heating.


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## SDMXTWO (10 Sep 2019)

Has anyone looked at infrared heating panels, seem to be 100% energy efficent. What I'm trying to find out is why one infrared panel brand is more expensive than another of the same wattage. At the moment looking at Klarstein Wonderwall range where a 1200w is 220€. So is you had one of those in a number of rooms and used them on and off as required surely they would be more efficient than oil/gas.


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## Leo (12 Sep 2019)

SDMXTWO said:


> used them on and off as required surely they would be more efficient than oil/gas.



As per SparkRite's point above, don't confuse efficiency with cost effectiveness. All forms of electric heat will be close to 100% efficient, but that's not to say they will be the cheapest. 

The SEAI produce regular reports comparing domestic heating fuel costs. Electric heating remains the most expensive per delivered kWh of heat energy. Where it starts to make sense is in super efficient very well insulated homes where the low demand for heat makes oil or gas more expensive.


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## SDMXTWO (25 Sep 2019)

Leo said:


> As per SparkRite's point above, don't confuse efficiency with cost effectiveness. All forms of electric heat will be close to 100% efficient, but that's not to say they will be the cheapest.
> 
> The SEAI produce regular reports comparing domestic heating fuel costs. Electric heating remains the most expensive per delivered kWh of heat energy. Where it starts to make sense is in super efficient very well insulated homes *where the low demand for heat makes oil or gas more expensive.*


We have an old 20yr boiler on kerosene with rads which are not very effective. We have an electric shower. But we have no on demand hot water at sink kitchen/bathroom when needed. As there are only 3 in the house oil is not looking at being very efficent. Looking at alternatives that can make life easier, ie. undersink on demand water heater kitch/bathroom with panel heaters in rooms that are actually being used. These can be un plugged and moved to any room as needed.

Solid fuel non boiler in kitchen.


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## peemac (25 Sep 2019)

SDMXTWO said:


> We have an old 20yr boiler on kerosene with rads which are not very effective. We have an electric shower. But we have no on demand hot water at sink kitchen/bathroom when needed. As there are only 3 in the house oil is not looking at being very efficent. Looking at alternatives that can make life easier, ie. undersink on demand water heater kitch/bathroom with panel heaters in rooms that are actually being used. These can be un plugged and moved to any room as needed.
> 
> Solid fuel non boiler in kitchen.


Change the boiler. The advance in energy efficiency over the last 20 years has been huge.

I changed  a 14 year old boiler that was located about 10 metres from the house to a new Grant boiler with heat/water & zone controls and oil usage literally halved - and that not an exaggeration. A single 1000 lt fill will do me all winter and its a good sized house.

Total cost was about €3k and we'll have saved that in oil by end of this winter

Have a central heating service person come out and advise


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## Leo (26 Sep 2019)

SDMXTWO said:


> with panel heaters in rooms that are actually being used. These can be un plugged and moved to any room as needed.



Non-occupied rooms need to be heated / ventilated too or you risk serious condensation and mould problems.


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## lledlledlled (26 Sep 2019)

SDMXTWO said:


> We have an old 20yr boiler on kerosene with rads which are not very effective. We have an electric shower. But we have no on demand hot water at sink kitchen/bathroom when needed. As there are only 3 in the house oil is not looking at being very efficent. Looking at alternatives that can make life easier, ie. undersink on demand water heater kitch/bathroom with panel heaters in rooms that are actually being used. These can be un plugged and moved to any room as needed.
> 
> Solid fuel non boiler in kitchen.



Do you have access to a natural gas connection? A combi boiler might be suitable in your case


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## SDMXTWO (25 Nov 2019)

No I'd have to have a tank put in as well as the new boiler and that's a few bob. I know there is no easy way out it as you have to have heat but with the children leaving home soon etc I'm just not sure what to do.


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## Leo (27 Nov 2019)

SDMXTWO said:


> but with the children leaving home soon etc I'm just not sure what to do.



It might be worth waiting to see what replaces the deep retrofit scheme. The government have set ambitious targets for the retrofitting of older houses to make them much more energy efficient, they'll need generous incentives to come close. Significant works would be easier to manage once the kids have moved out. The under-sink option you mention might be enough to tide you over.


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