# Bike warranty



## cremeegg (27 Sep 2017)

My bike recently developed a crack in the frame. The bike shop where I bought the bike has closed down since my purchase.

I contacted the current Irish dealers for the Swiss manufacturers, who passed on my warranty claim.

The manufacturers have rejected the claim on the basis that the crack must have been caused by an impact and is not due to the material degrading.

I am not happy with this. It is impossible to say how the crack started, they have only seen pictures. Of course I cannot prove how the crack started, but I am not happy to accept their convenient view that it was due to an impact.

Further even if it was caused by a crack surely to be fit for use a bike should be able to withstand minor impacts. For sure no one went at it with a hammer.

Any suggestions how I might take this further would be very welcome.


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## VoiceofReason (27 Sep 2017)

What material is the Frame? Aluminium, Steel or Carbon? 
I'd suggest contacting a local dealer for the brand and asking them what their view of the crack is and how they suggest you proceed. 
I'd advise against riding it in the meantime in case it isn't structurally safe.


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## mathepac (27 Sep 2017)

As above. Just to be clear though, your contract was with the retailer you bought from, not with the manufacturer. That said if there a bike review forums out there, a mention might produce some good will ...


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## cremeegg (27 Sep 2017)

VoiceofReason said:


> What material is the Frame? Aluminium, Steel or Carbon?
> I'd suggest contacting a local dealer for the brand and asking them what their view of the crack is and how they suggest you proceed.
> I'd advise against riding it in the meantime in case it isn't structurally safe.



Thanks for the reply, the frame is Carbon. I have contacted a dealer, I think they are the only one in Ireland, and they passed the query on to the manufacturer.


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## cremeegg (27 Sep 2017)

mathepac said:


> As above. Just to be clear though, your contract was with the retailer you bought from, not with the manufacturer.



Are you sure about that. The warranty is from the manufacturer, Unfortunately the bike shop I bought it from has closed down since.



mathepac said:


> That said if there a bike review forums out there, a mention might produce some good will ...



That should be worth a try. Can you suggest any in particular ?


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## Leo (27 Sep 2017)

The European Small Claims procedure is likely your best bet. Your contract under Irish law is with the shop where you purchased it, so that avenue is no longer open to you. You could also try posting to their social media accounts, that can often yield results.


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## mathepac (27 Sep 2017)

> Are you sure about that. The warranty is from the manufacturer, Unfortunately the bike shop I bought it from has closed down since


Absolutely positive.

The circumstances you describe are some of the few times it might be worthwhile registering the product with the manufacturer at the time of purchase BUT you still have no legally enforceable contract with them. Do they have an Irish distributor who might negotiate or produce some good will for you?


> That should be worth a try. Can you suggest any in particular ?


Unfortunaltely not as I am not a bicyclist, although there are a few registered here.


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## LS400 (27 Sep 2017)

Responses like that, post to their social media page" really get up my back, it smacks a form of blackmail.

No company wants negative feed back to their Social Media account, yet people search this out when making an informed decision. Coming from a Medium sizes company, we cant afford bad publicity, and have often had to take a frivolous claim on the chin just to avoid the inevitable drama which would follow, as like the Insurance Company's, "Pay up irregardless, ie, cheaper than going to court approach" we will end up paying in the long run.

You, me, nor the man in the moon knows how the crack in the frame happened at this moment, a "minor impact" to you, could be a hell of an impact to someone else.  This should be identified first before posting to their account, and if proved to be of poor quality, then seek reimbursement for the product, and costs associated with proving it.


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## mathepac (27 Sep 2017)

Anti-consumer stance is startling. The consumer is left hung out to dry when a small business closed, why should he not be allowed to post his experience about the product in question? Is it part of my deal with say Apple, that I can't complain publicly about their product, lack of after sales service, maintenance or follow-up if one of their dealerships closes down? 

Very disappointed with your anti-consumer stance @LS400 it smacks of the old "Oh you bought that in the sale" or "That was second-hand" or  other ducking and diving tactics vendors still try to employ here to the detriment of Sean & Sheila citizen.


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## RedOnion (27 Sep 2017)

mathepac said:


> Absolutely positive.
> 
> The circumstances you describe are some of the few times it might be worthwhile registering the product with the manufacturer at the time of purchase BUT you still have no legally enforceable contract with them.



That is not strictly correct. A manufacturer warranty, or guarantee is legally binding, and enforceable through courts if necessary. A warranty in in addition to your statutory rights which provide more protection in most cases.


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## LS400 (27 Sep 2017)

Why is it anti consumer, you are posting a negative feed back without knowing the facts. If it were proved the crack happened from misuse, would it still be fair to leave a negative post?


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## mathepac (27 Sep 2017)

@RedOnion Through the Swiss courts? The Irish courts? Please explain.


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## cremeegg (27 Sep 2017)

Leo said:


> The European Small Claims procedure is likely your best bet. Your contract under Irish law is with the shop where you purchased it, so that avenue is no longer open to you. You could also try posting to their social media accounts, that can often yield results.



Do you know if this procedure includes Switzerland. The courts.ie website does not list the countries covered.


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## mathepac (27 Sep 2017)

LS400 said:


> Why is it anti consumer, you are posting a negative feed back without knowing the facts. If it were proved the crack happened from misuse, would it still be fair to leave a negative post?


I'm not posting anything, I suggested avenues the consumer might explore to remedy his situation with the broken bike. Your post is anti-consumer because your suggestion is the consumer cannot post his presumably honest experiences with the product. You're playing the victim role here, "poor vendor / retailer, always hard done by".


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## cremeegg (27 Sep 2017)

LS400 said:


> You, me, nor the man in the moon knows how the crack in the frame happened at this moment, a "minor impact" to you, could be a hell of an impact to someone else.  This should be identified first before posting to their account, and if proved to be of poor quality, then seek reimbursement for the product, and costs associated with proving it.



I sent photos to the manufacturer through the dealer and they came back with 

_"they have come back this morning having assessed your claim, the damage is deemed to have been caused by an impact or knock of some description and as such not covered under the warranty I am afraid."_

This reminds me of the immortal words of Christine Keeler "Well he would say that wouldn't he" 

I don't know how they can tell from a photo how the damage was caused, and even if it were caused by "_an impact or knock of some description"_ would that not be normal usage on a bike. It is frustrating not knowing how to move the thing on from here. I will have to consider the European small claims procedure, if that covers Switzerland.

I posted this comment with the photo on their Facebook page.

"Hi guys, I have a crack in my frame, just wondering if it is dangerous to ride."


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## LS400 (27 Sep 2017)

But the retailer is a victim, if they get unwarranted bad publicity. Your finding them guilty first without even knowing the circumstances. Sure these are the big guys, they can afford to take a hit if I shout loudly enough, they wont want the bad publicity, sure what have ye to loose--- Nothing.


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## LS400 (27 Sep 2017)

If this were my bike, and no doubt cost a lot of bucks being of Carbon Fiber, I would engage a metallurgist to form an opinion on the likely cause of the damage. I dont know how much this would cost, but would investigate it.
I agree, a photo will give very little information, and this is probably their tact, deny and wait until you raise the bar.

With this in hand and if proved to be of poor quality, then sure, post all you like, and seek recovery by any means necessary. I certainly would. Its the running screaming at the retailer before knowing the facts that irk me.

As an aside to an earlier comment about Apple etc, my sister works in a phone/computer shop, and its not unusual to have people coming ranting and raving about this new crap Apple product they just bought, it wont do this and that etc, when along they  just didn't take the time to look at the manual, a quick demo and they're off happy as Larry..


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## VoiceofReason (27 Sep 2017)

'If this were my bike, and no doubt cost a lot of bucks being of Carbon Fiber, I would engage a metallurgist to form an opinion on the likely cause of the damage. I dont know how much this would cost, but would investigate it.'

Carbon fibre isn't a metal so this would not achieve anything. I would suggest that posting on the cycling forum on Boards.ie will provide the best opportunity to receive practical advice from posters who will have seen and/or experienced similar damage on Carbon Fibre frames. In general my understanding is that after a crash or impact an x-ray or scan of the frame can be required to establish if it is safe to ride or needs to be replaced.


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## RedOnion (27 Sep 2017)

mathepac said:


> @RedOnion Through the Swiss courts? The Irish courts? Please explain.


Note - consumer law isn't my area, but this is my understanding. I usually bow to your superior knowledge on consumer rights, so happy to be told if I've got this one wrong.

Applicable laws and covered territories should be stated in the warranty. I'm not sure of the process here since Switzerland is not an EU member state (although they usually adopt the law if the country of the consumer to keep everyone happy with their membership of the EFTA) but an often overlooked fact is that there are provisions in EU law to make guarantees offered to consumers (and claims made in advertising) legally binding.

It's true that the contract, and therefore your legal guarantee, is with the retailer, but a commercial guarantee is legally binding on the offeror.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2003/si/11/made/en/print

_A guarantee shall be legally binding on the offerer under the conditions laid down in the guarantee statement and the associated advertising._


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## Leo (28 Sep 2017)

LS400 said:


> But the retailer is a victim, if they get unwarranted bad publicity. Your finding them guilty first without even knowing the circumstances. Sure these are the big guys, they can afford to take a hit if I shout loudly enough, they wont want the bad publicity, sure what have ye to loose--- Nothing.



I don't doubt there are a lot of people who run moaning to social media any time they have a problem and want something they're likely not entitled to. However, there are also a lot of companies who clearly fail in their duties to their customers, and refuse to remedy issues that are clearly due to a product not being fit for purpose. As a consumer, I want to know about such issues, and I think I'm wise enough to know when someone's trying it on versus a customer with a genuine complaint. I use this information to guide me when deciding on a particular brand. If I see them responding well to what look like genuine cases, I'll be more likely to do business with them, if I see them shutting down chancers, I'll be more likely to do business with them, if I see them fail to deal with what look like really genuine cases, I'll spend my money elsewhere where I'll be more confident of a good outcome if I have an issue I need resolved.

With the information we have to hand, we can't say whether the OP's is truely genuine. So all we can do is lay out all the options and let the OP decide how to proceed.


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## Leo (28 Sep 2017)

VoiceofReason said:


> Carbon fibre isn't a metal so this would not achieve anything. I would suggest that posting on the cycling forum on Boards.ie will provide the best opportunity to receive practical advice from posters who will have seen and/or experienced similar damage on Carbon Fibre frames. In general my understanding is that after a crash or impact an x-ray or scan of the frame can be required to establish if it is safe to ride or needs to be replaced.



Yeah, you'd need to do a CT scan of the affected area to determine the extent of damage and form an opinion of the cause. Canyon in Germany offer this service and will look at other brand's bikes, but that'll cost €300 plus shipping back and forth. Since they started using CT scanners, a few other manufacturers have followed suit, but these are €500k+ machines, so getting to use them isn't cheap. 

The Boards suggestion is a good one, there are a few on there in the business and will be able to recommend someone who can do a more authoritative examination and help determine if the failure was due to a manufacturing fault or a knock.


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## Cervelo (28 Sep 2017)

A few questions
How old is the bike
What was the warranty that came with the bike
I presume it was new and not second hand when you bought it
Where is the crack on the frame, can you post a picture
Was it the dealer or the manufacture that declined the warranty


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## Jim2007 (28 Sep 2017)

LS400 said:


> Responses like that, post to their social media page" really get up my back, it smacks a form of blackmail.



It is actually a criminal offense in Switzerland to do this.  The Swiss take the view that legal matters are to be sorted out in courts, no social media.  By all means you can right a negative review provided it is accurate, but threaten to publish a negative report as a means of getting a company to resolve a legal matter is a crime.


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## cremeegg (28 Sep 2017)

Leo said:


> With the information we have to hand, we can't say whether the OP's is truely genuine.



But that is the nature of the situation. The frame is cracked. Neither I nor the manufacturer know how it came to be cracked. An x-ray would confirm that there is a crack, but I doubt it would definitively indicate how the crack occurred. The bike was not involved in a crash.


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## cremeegg (28 Sep 2017)

Cervelo said:


> How old is the bike



just over 3 years, the manufacturer has accepted that it is within the warranty period


Cervelo said:


> What was the warranty that came with the bike



Well that is several pages long, but the exclusions are



Later alteration/additions involving incompatible or non-original parts
Wearing parts such as ball bearings, sliding bearings, bearing bolts, bearing screws, etc.
Non-manufacturer parts/components
Consequential damage
Repair of the problem by the manufacturers retailer is possible
Inappropriate use/transport
Missing warranty inspection within appropriate period
Inappropriate maintenance (Take note of the operating instructions!)
Damage due to missing or faulty adjustment or worn components
Consequences of a fall
Damage due to weather effects or normal wear
Damage due to unsuitable cleaning agents or additives,or tools such as high-pressure cleaners.



Cervelo said:


> I presume it was new and not second hand when you bought it



Yes


Cervelo said:


> Where is the crack on the frame, can you post a picture






Cervelo said:


> Was it the dealer or the manufacture that declined the warranty



I have been corresponding with the dealer, but it appears to be the manufacturers decision


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## Jim2007 (28 Sep 2017)

Well there is very little consumer law in Switzerland.  There is also very little litigation, as most matters tend to get sorted out before they get that far.

If you can get a report from a bike repair shop saying that it is a manufacturing fault rather than an accident.  Then that should be enough to get things moving with the company.  Judges here tend to take a very poor view of companies that try to sell substandard products, so it is unlikely to go that far.


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## Leo (28 Sep 2017)

cremeegg said:


> But that is the nature of the situation. The frame is cracked. Neither I nor the manufacturer know how it came to be cracked. An x-ray would confirm that there is a crack, but I doubt it would definitively indicate how the crack occurred. The bike was not involved in a crash.



An XRay won't but a CT scan will provide way more detail and can pick up on manufacturing defects withing the carbon fibre lay up. They should also be able to determine if there was any external scratching or wear to the outer layers that significantly weakened the structure. 

Carbon has super lateral stiffness, but is susceptible to knocks. It doesn't take a crash to weaken it to the point where it may subsequently fail in normal use.


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## Leo (28 Sep 2017)

What caused the paint chip on the top tube?


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## cremeegg (28 Sep 2017)

Leo said:


> What caused the paint chip on the top tube?


No idea, I was cleaning the bike one day and noticed this.


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## Leo (28 Sep 2017)

cremeegg said:


> No idea, I was cleaning the bike one day and noticed this.



Unfortunately I fear there's a chance the manufacturer may be taking that as evidence of an impact with the frame.


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## cremeegg (28 Sep 2017)

Leo said:


> Carbon has super lateral stiffness, but is susceptible to knocks. It doesn't take a crash to weaken it to the point where it may subsequently fail in normal use.



This is probably the heart of the matter. A steel frame is virtually indestructible, an alloy one not far behind, but if normal wear to the outer layers weakened the structure to the extent that a crack appeared then surely the thing wasn't fit for purpose.

I was not using abrasives to clean it.


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## Cervelo (28 Sep 2017)

To me, just going on the photo it looks like impact damage (I presume we are talking about the big chunk missing from the top tube and not the scratchs or paint crack either side)
Its very hard to tell just from one photo, it really needs to be seen by a compentent mechanic
Have you brought it to a LBS to have a look at it, is the carbon fibre around the area soft to touch, have you done a tap test??
When you say dealer are you talking about another bike shop or the importer


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## seamless (28 Sep 2017)

From the photo, it looks like something impacted the top tube - I've seen similar damage on carbon MTB frames after crashes.

I can't see the manufacturer accepting that as a warranty issue based on the photo, sorry.


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## cremeegg (28 Sep 2017)

Firstly thanks to all for taking the time to reply to this. Its appreciated.



Cervelo said:


> To me, just going on the photo it looks like impact damage (I presume we are talking about the big chunk missing from the top tube and not the scratchs or paint crack either side)
> Its very hard to tell just from one photo



There isn't actually a chunk missing, its just a crack. I have brought it to several local bike shops, and every one has a different opinion, one even thought that the thing is just a scratch in the paint work.

The carbon fibre around the area is not soft to touch.

I am not sure exactly what you mean by a tap test.

The dealer is another bike shop, but they are appointed as an official dealer by the manufacturer.


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## Cervelo (28 Sep 2017)

The Tap test is simple tapping around the frame to try and detect any damage to the carbon fibre that might not be visable on the outside

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPL8OcKPTCE

I asked about the dealer because I rekon they have contacted the Irish wholesaler who have turned down your request and not the manufacturer 
Can you get a copy of the correspondence between the dealer/shop and who they contacted, only asking because its what the shop has said to the wholesaler/manufacturer that will influence the outcome of the claim
You might be better going to your LBS, who knows you and will fight your corner rather then a shop that dosen't know you or the history of the bike

If there is only paint cracking and the carbon around the area is solid and the tap test dosen't sound any different then you might be lucky but I can't really tell just from one photo
If you up in Dublin anytime soon I can have a proper look at it with the guys in the bike shop that I use and work for if thats any help


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