# Car Accident Please Help



## maryh08 (18 Jan 2008)

I lived abroad many years ago and came back to Ireland with a North American driving license. I borrowed my fathers car. I got involved in a car accident which I was driving and both my friend (a passenger) and I were seriously injured.
My fathers insurance policy stated a Full driving licence was required to drive the car. I had a full driving licence from North America. I was already driving for five years.
In the meantime my 'friend' made a claim and the insurance company paid her in excess og 300,000 punt. This was around the year 2000. Several letters passed through our lawyer but the final letter in 2003 stated that the claim was paid and they would be looking for reimbursement. No further correspondence from the insurance company was recieved after that time to me or to my lawyer.
Just recently in 2008, I got the land of my life after all these years demanding reimbursement from both my father and I.
I am totally overwhelmed and devastated at the enormity of this situation, I am just and average person with a teenage family making ends meet.
I would appreciate so much some sound advice on how to deal with this.


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## ClubMan (18 Jan 2008)

maryh08 said:


> Several letters passed through our lawyer but the final letter in 2003 stated that the claim was paid and they would be looking for reimbursement.
> 
> ...
> 
> Just recently in 2008, I got the land of my life after all these years demanding reimbursement from both my father and I.


While it took a while this was obviously coming. Have you discussed it with your solicitor?


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## maryh08 (19 Jan 2008)

It was such a long time ago I assumed that the claim was paid out of the Motor Insurance Bureau of Ireland. I dont own my own home and wouldnt have the funds at all to pay this. Also I had never heard anything from the Insurance legal department or solicitor since Febuary 2003.  Is there not a time limit  where they can pursue  this claim?
At the time of the accident I believed I was covered as the policy stated that  a full licence was required and I had a full drivers licence from North America. Surely my licence was suffice as it did not state that it had to be a full Irish Driving Licence? Since then the Insurance Company does now state that a full Irish Licence is required. The fact that they made this change in the policy are they not now closing a loophole that they overlooked? 

My brother uses this website for varying different reasons  and has received valuable information from time to time and he suggested  that  I too  should seek some expertise advice and options here. 
My own solicitor said he was surprised after all this time.
Where do I go from here and I really would appreciate your opinion or advice on this.
Thanks so much.


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## Buildingbloc (20 Jan 2008)

i think u should go to a good solicitor for professional advice. dont panic thought. everything will be fine. your own solicitor should offer you better advice than "he is surprised" though.


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## maryh08 (20 Jan 2008)

It is  my every waking thought  and   I  do need to know how to go about this effectively.


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## aircobra19 (20 Jan 2008)

First off, I have no experience in this area, I'm just expressing my opinion. But I think its a big leap of credibility to believe someone would drive on another countries driving licence  with out checking are they covered for insurance. But ignoring that. How does the insurance company expect to recover this money if you can't pay it. Also proving that there was  loop hole (if true) is going to be an expensive legal battle is it not?


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## maryh08 (20 Jan 2008)

But I had a full driving licence as stated on the policy and believed it to be credible.


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## mercman (20 Jan 2008)

If the Insurance Company changed the wording of the Policy since the accident well and good. However, the terms of the Policy current at the time of the accident are those that are relevant.


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## Ravima (20 Jan 2008)

MIBI is not a charity. You would or should have had this explained to you at the tiem by the insurance company handling the case. You woudl have either received written correspondence from them and/or met with one of their representatives. You would have been told to seek legal advice before you signed a form wherby you agreed to allow them to handle the claim on your behalf and to reimburse them their outlay. if the outlay was €300K, then they cannot hope to collect, unles you win the lotto or inherit a large sum or valuable property.

You should consult your own solicitor and see if you can come to some arrangement with the MIBI.

MIBI are financed by all other policyholders, who pay a portion of their premium to pay claims against uninsured motorists. The level of uninsured driver and the claims made against them are one of the reasons why the rest of us must pay higher premiums.


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## maryh08 (21 Jan 2008)

I was at no time contacted by the MIBI , or was this alternative brought to my attention, by the insurance Co.If the insurance co. knew that I was not covered why didn,t they bring this to my attention?


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## ClubMan (21 Jan 2008)

maryh08 said:


> It was such a long time ago I assumed that the claim was paid out of the Motor Insurance Bureau of Ireland. I dont own my own home and wouldnt have the funds at all to pay this. Also I had never heard anything from the Insurance legal department or solicitor since Febuary 2003.  Is there not a time limit  where they can pursue  this claim?


There probably is a statute of limitations on such issues but c. 5 years is a relatively short period in the greater scheme of things I would have thought?


> At the time of the accident I believed I was covered as the policy stated that  a full licence was required and I had a full drivers licence from North America. Surely my licence was suffice as it did not state that it had to be a full Irish Driving Licence? Since then the Insurance Company does now state that a full Irish Licence is required. The fact that they made this change in the policy are they not now closing a loophole that they overlooked?


What has your own solicitor said about these facts?


> My own solicitor said he was surprised after all this time.


If that's most or all of what he said then...


> Where do I go from here and I really would appreciate your opinion or advice on this.


... to another/better solicitor I presume?



Buildingbloc said:


> everything will be fine.


Just curious - why do you say that?


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## csirl (21 Jan 2008)

> My fathers insurance policy stated a Full driving licence was required to drive the car. I had a full driving licence from North America. I was already driving for five years.


 
Were YOU insured to drive the car? In Ireland, it is usually the driver(s) named on the insurance documents (who have licenses) who are the only people insured, NOT any person who has a full license. I understand that in some other countries around the world, it is the car that is insured, but in Ireland it is usually the driver(s). Whether or not you have a full license is irrelevant if you are not named on the policy.


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## Purple (21 Jan 2008)

csirl said:


> Were YOU insured to drive the car? In Ireland, it is usually the driver(s) named on the insurance documents (who have licenses) who are the only people insured, NOT any person who has a full license. I understand that in some other countries around the world, it is the car that is insured, but in Ireland it is usually the driver(s). Whether or not you have a full license is irrelevant if you are not named on the policy.


My policy covers any driver who drives my car who has a full license. The cover for such a driver is 3rd party.
I think the OP needs to get a different solicitor. Even if their existing one knows what they are doing there is a communication problem and the OP’s stress levels seems to be exacerbated by this problem.
The one thing I would advise is for the Op to be as pro-active as possible as a solicitor is only as good as the person instructing them in that they can only acts on the information that they are given.


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## maryh08 (21 Jan 2008)

I called my solicitor and am awaiting a call back from him today.  I will report as to what he says but keep the opinions  and advice coming please  and thanks to all those who have as I need to inform myself as well as I can


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## sam h (21 Jan 2008)

I reckon the misunderstanding is that normally once someone gives you permission in the US to drive their car, you are covered (I drove loads of cars in the states and would have been covered by the cars policy).  It's not the case in Ireland, in most case (unless the person has open drive) a person can drive your car if they have a full licence and insurance on another car....but all of the policies differ and it is vital to double check with your insurance company.

I don't have any other advise other than make sure you get a very good solicitor.  Do you still have the policy documents for the year in question ?


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## maryh08 (22 Jan 2008)

Yes I do still have the policy document......to quote
Description of Drivers

a    The Insured
b     Any person between the ages of 25 and 71 years inclusive who is driving on the Insured's order or with his consent provided such person holds or has held a Licence (other that an provisional Licence) to drive
c     Any person specified by endorsement in the schedule of events.

I also spoke too my solicitor who is going to go over all documents and policy and get back to me.  He also said that they could issue legal proceedings against me.  What options  could I have?


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## ClubMan (22 Jan 2008)

Any chance it says somewhere else something like _"the laws of Ireland apply to this policy" _which might make it implicit that the clause relates to *Irish *licenses?


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## Purple (22 Jan 2008)

maryh08 said:


> Yes I do still have the policy document......to quote
> Description of Drivers
> 
> a    The Insured
> ...


 You drove the car on a US licence but did you ever have an (full) Irish one?


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## cinders (22 Jan 2008)

Is the 'Description of Drivers' from the Insurance Certificate or from the policy document?  The policy document would outline exactly what is covered in the policy and if any restrictions apply.  

You can check out what is an accepted driver's license for Ireland on Citizen's Information.


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## Stifster (22 Jan 2008)

The MIBI provides a fund to compensate those injured by third parties who were not driving with a valid insurance policy. The MIBI becomes a joint aprty to those proceedings and as far as I know the MIBI is obliged to pursue the uninsured party for a contribution, I have seen cases (between the MIBI and the uninsured third party) settled for small amounts relative to the amount of compensation paid. 

If they are intent on pursuing you then your solicitor needs to get into negotiations with them to try and reach a resolution as early as possible.


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## ailbhe (22 Jan 2008)

Usually the open driving restriction applies to EU licences only. A full American licence over here is deemed the equivalent of a provisional Irish as far as insurance is concerned (as you cannot change an American licence to an Irish without sitting a test)


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## aircobra19 (22 Jan 2008)

It might define what it means by "Licence"


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## Lauren (22 Jan 2008)

ailbhe said:


> Usually the open driving restriction applies to EU licences only. A full American licence over here is deemed the equivalent of a provisional Irish as far as insurance is concerned (as you cannot change an American licence to an Irish without sitting a test)


 
Ailbhe, is this what you believe to be true or is there any link to an official body who state this? Haven't heard that before...


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## GOBSTOPPER (22 Jan 2008)

*In the meantime my 'friend' made a claim and the insurance company paid her in excess og 300,000 punt.  *


Why would an insurance company pay out this sum on a policy they reckon isn't in force at the time of the accident for the reason of (your license not complying with their terms of the policy) why didn't they just walk away and say nothing to do with us? surely its an admission of liability.?


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## Stifster (22 Jan 2008)

It was the MIBI (www.mibi.ie) that paid precisely for that reason (though the insurance company would be a contributor to the MIBI fund)


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## GOBSTOPPER (22 Jan 2008)

So when the OP states that the *insurance company* paid the 3ook setlement ,does she mean it was the  MIBI who in fact settled the claim ?


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## Stifster (22 Jan 2008)

GOBSTOPPER said:


> So when the OP states that the *insurance company* paid the 3ook setlement ,does she mean it was the MIBI who in fact settled the claim ?


 
I took it that that was the case after reading her second post, though it still isn't 100% clear I'd imagine that it was an MIBI settlement.

As a matter of interest mary, why do you refer to the passenger as your "friend", if her settlement was €300,000 (whether to her or the total including costs) you must have caused her serious injuries. Do you feel she shouldn't have sued?


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## ailbhe (22 Jan 2008)

Lauren said:


> Ailbhe, is this what you believe to be true or is there any link to an official body who state this? Haven't heard that before...


I work in insurance and a person can drive over here on an american licence if they are a tourist but insurance rates are based on a provisional licence holder. If a person with a full american licence moves permanantly to Ireland they must apply for a provisional licence and sit the Irish driving test.

[broken link removed]


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## Lauren (22 Jan 2008)

ailbhe said:


> I work in insurance and a person can drive over here on an american licence if they are a tourist but insurance rates are based on a provisional licence holder. If a person with a full american licence moves permanantly to Ireland they must apply for a provisional licence and sit the Irish driving test.
> 
> [broken link removed]


 

Thanks for clarifying...I wonder if other posters were aware of this? I can see why the OP assumed she was ok to drive though...


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## GOBSTOPPER (22 Jan 2008)

*Rules *

If you are not from any of the above countries, (for example, if you are from Canada, the United States or New Zealand), and you hold a national driving license or an international driving permit from your own country, *you may drive in Ireland for the duration of your temporary visit* (up to 12 months). 


If your stay in Ireland will be more than 12 months and you are not from one of the listed recognised countries/States, you can apply for a driving license in Ireland. You must first you must complete a driver theory test, apply for a learner driving permit and complete your driving test in Ireland. If you pass your driving test, you will be issued with a full driving licence for use in Ireland

If you returned to the U.S.A. within 12 months of entering Ireland then i think you could have a case for claiming that you were driving under a recognized full license at the time of the accident as described in the rules above from the citizens info website. therefore be covered under the original policy. you need a proven solicitor to Analise this case fully.


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## csirl (22 Jan 2008)

> It might define what it means by "Licence"


 
This is the key question. The word "Licence" in the policy has a capital letter, therefore there is a definition of "Licence" in the small print on the policy. This definition will say exactly what is or is not regarded as a license to drive under the policy. You need to check the definitions.


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## aircobra19 (22 Jan 2008)

Does the definition Licence vary between insurance companies?


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## ailbhe (22 Jan 2008)

aircobra19 said:


> Does the definition Licence vary between insurance companies?


 

Yes. Some will only allow open driving with a full Irish licence, sometimes it's a full EU licence. In the case of tractors it is a valid licence for the vehicle (ie a 16 year old with a tractor licence can drive). The definition is usually too long to fit on the cert. Therefore it usually will have some reference (any driver aged 25 to 70 with a licence as defined etc etc). All companies have different variations and specifications for their open driving.

*I am assuming that the OPs dad had open driving on his car though it hasn't really been specified*


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## maryh08 (22 Jan 2008)

I am delighted to hear all of your responses. I will try my best to update you as I am trying to undestand myself all the implications and legal terms. 

There is nothing in the Policy that states    the laws of ireland apply to this policy.

I never had a full Irish Licence then but do now.

I have no documentation from the MIBI.  Any correspondence I rreceived was from solicitors and Insurance Company.  But that is a very intersting point and I wonder would it be too late to bring them into this?

As regard to my friend she still is my friend  but unfortunately as it stands I have no assets or funds and a family that I take care of.  I also received serious injuries and this is a serious situation for my family right now and they have no idea about this.


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## maryh08 (22 Jan 2008)

Thats a very interesting point also from Gobstopper.  It is worth bringing to the solicitors  attention.

Thanks  again to all your responses.


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## maryh08 (22 Jan 2008)

Also i believe there is an International Driving Licence that can be obtained with a simple application and a small fee paid and no test required and is accepted in this country.  Can anyone clarify this although I did not have one either.


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## mathepac (22 Jan 2008)

There was a time when the AA (and possibly other organisations) issued grey-coloured International Driving Licences.  I used to get these regularly when I needed id with a picture in the States and other countries, when we had the pre-EU licences here. They were always endorsed "not valid in country of issue" or some such.  All you needed to get one was your licence, a passport photo and their fee. They normally had a 1-year validity.


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## mathepac (22 Jan 2008)

mathepac said:


> ... They were always endorsed "not valid in country of issue" or some such...



So for someone from the States to get one valid for Ireland, they would need to approach the AAA over there.


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## ClubMan (22 Jan 2008)

csirl said:


> This is the key question. The word "Licence" in the policy has a capital letter, therefore there is a definition of "Licence" in the small print on the policy. This definition will say exactly what is or is not regarded as a license to drive under the policy. You need to check the definitions.





ailbhe said:


> Yes. Some will only allow open driving with a full Irish licence, sometimes it's a full EU licence. In the case of tractors it is a valid licence for the vehicle (ie a 16 year old with a tractor licence can drive). The definition is usually too long to fit on the cert. Therefore it usually will have some reference (any driver aged 25 to 70 with a licence as defined etc etc). All companies have different variations and specifications for their open driving.
> 
> *I am assuming that the OPs dad had open driving on his car though it hasn't really been specified*



Any chance the original poster could address these points?


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## maryh08 (23 Jan 2008)

I have just been checking the policy again to be sure and my father did not have open drive on his endorsements.  I thought as stated in the Description of Drivers that this was suffice.

Description of drivers

a.   the insured

b.    Any person between the ages of 25 and 71 years inclusive who is driving on the Insured's order or with his consent provided such person holds or has held a Licence(other than a provisional Licence) to drive

c.   Any person specified by endorsement in the Schedule herto

Does this adversely affect me?


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## shipibo (23 Jan 2008)

Mary,


http://www.flac.ie


       They can give you some information,  and advice on solicitor with specific skillset to deal with your issue.


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## ClubMan (23 Jan 2008)

maryh08 said:


> I have just been checking the policy again to be sure and my father did not have open drive on his endorsements.  I thought as stated in the Description of Drivers that this was suffice.
> 
> Description of drivers
> 
> ...


A question for your solicitor surely?

What definition of "license" does the policy have?


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## mathepac (23 Jan 2008)

maryh08 said:


> I have just been checking the policy again to be sure and my father did not have open drive on his endorsements.  I thought as stated in the Description of Drivers that this was suffice.
> 
> Description of drivers
> 
> ...



Sorry, but to me this reads as if it is an extract from the *Insurance Certificate *, usually a single or at most two-page document, which is not the same as the *Insurance Policy*, which is usually a multi-page A4 or A5 booklet. The totality of the contract between the Insured and the Insurer is usually both the policy and the certificate together as each document may refer to endorsements or inclusions / exclusions in the other document.

Your legal advisers will need both documents in order to advise you.

Sorry, this seems to crossed with ClubMan's post.


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## ailbhe (23 Jan 2008)

Agree with the above post. As stated already the certificate is valid in conjunction with the policy booklet. The type of licence and exceptions etc are listed in the booklet.


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## maryh08 (23 Jan 2008)

I realise at this stage I really need the feedback from my solicitor who is going over the documents to enlighten me on the exact stance of the policy and can then be more knowledgeable in answering such pertinent questions that many of you pointed out.  Until I know I can only hope that what I had thought does stand.  Thanks  for all the help.


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## maryh08 (28 Jan 2008)

Just logging to say i have an appoinment with my solicitor on Thursday and will let you know the outcome.  thanks for all your input and I am deciphering it in the hope that I have some hope.


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## cityworker (4 Feb 2008)

First off the MIBI appoints particular insurance companies on a rotation basis to deal with possible non insured claims. They act as "insurer concenered"

In many instances however, the insurer who covered the vehicle involved in the collision, will generally deal with the cliam of the Third Party. 

The insurer concerned *is not providing the uninsured driver with an indemnity* and they have recourse to seeking recovery for any payments made. I would make an asumption that your dads insurance company did deal deal with the claim but as insurer concerned.

Some questions I would ask 
As your dad was the policyholder did they ever write to him and let him know what happend re settlement of claim.

Did the insurance company reduce your dads No Claims discount - charge higher premium ? Doing so may suggest that they treated you as an insured driver at the time 

Mary - the Motor Policy document really will be the key to your case.
In particular you should look at the exclusions under the policy and definition of Insured .

If it is the case that the wording was open driving ,You could (Your sols) argue that the policy wording did not give a clear and unambiguous definition of what consitutes a full licence, thus the courts can apply the Contra Preferandum rule and rule against the Insurance company seeking recovery. The Insurance company could be made indemnify you and treat you as if you were an insured person.

This case really deals with Insurance Law and as such it would be preferable to deal with a solicitor who has dealings with same.

In my expereince if you are unsucessful the MIBI and Insurer concened usually are quite happy to receive small affortable payments per month and your sols can negotiate that.


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