# Suing the executors of a will?



## dafter (22 Aug 2017)

Hi. We have a family dilemma. Our parents both passed recently. The will said the house was to be sold and divided equally between the children. We have no issue there. Probate took just over a year as there were many investments to track down. Again, no issue there. The situation is that the house has been on the market for over a year now and there have been no offers. We live in rural Ireland and the rush in the property market has not hit our part of the world. The original asking price was agreed on by all the siblings with the advice of the estate agent. The price has been dropped twice and still no offers. I do not believe the price is unrealistic, it is just a property that doesn't seem to interest a lot of people (it's v. old). The problem is that one of the siblings now wants to sue the executors as they believe the executors have not acted expediently enough in realising the assets. The other siblings are beyond upset as the executors are extended family who are doing an onerous non-fee paying job. Where does everybody stand here? What can the executors realistically do if nobody wants to buy the house?? Help. (n.b. none of the rest of us are in a position to buy the house as we are all already paying mortgages.)


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## mathepac (23 Aug 2017)

Not a lot the executors can do if no one wants the house unless you all agree to a fire sale price just to "get it off your hands" so to speak. I suspect even that might well lead to recriminations.

Be very careful about considering suing executors. They will use the assets of the estate to pay the costs of defending themselves, as is their right. What steps have the executors taken to seek legal/property advice on the impasse?


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## Thirsty (23 Aug 2017)

I think you've answered your own question.

I'd suggest that you recommend the unhappy sibling get their own legal advice.

IANAL - but I'd be reasonably sure any reputable Solicitor will tell your sibling there is no case to answer.

I'm assuming here that exec has taken the necessary steps to secure / insure etc


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## dafter (23 Aug 2017)

Hi Mathepac, and thanks for getting back to me. Myself and the rest of the siblings do not want a fire sale as we do believe the house is realistically valued but just not what potential buyers want / need right now. The sibling threatening to sue (let's just call them 'Ted' for definitions sake) has upset everybody (siblings, executors and extended family at this stage) as we do not believe the executors have failed in their duties. How do you sell something that nobody wants to buy?? We did try to make an offer to buy out Ted's share but our offer was turned down (it was just under the value of their share of the asking price). Ted has already fallen out with half the family over this as the rest of us think Ted is acting disgracefully. The executors are dear family members who did not ask for this job but agreed to fulfill the wishes of our parents. The stress they have been put under is unforgiving. We now just want to protect the executors. Are you 100% that they can use the assets to cover their defense??

Thirsty - is there an insurance the executors can take out to protect themselves??


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## newirishman (23 Aug 2017)

I am not sure what legal grounds your sibling thinks he has to sue the executor, but in any case look at mathepacs advise. 

You state that your don't believe the price - that was agreed by everyone - is unrealistic.
Yet , the house hasn't been sold. That means the price is unrealistic, and apparently above market value. That has nothing to do with fire sale, or selling "for less than it is worth".


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## Brendan Burgess (23 Aug 2017)

newirishman said:


> You state that your don't believe the price - that was agreed by everyone - is unrealistic.
> Yet , the house hasn't been sold. That means the price is unrealistic, and apparently above market value.



I don't think it's as clear as that at all. 

In an active city or town market, such an analysis might well be correct. 

But in a rural market where there are very few transactions, it is a bit more complicated.  When one wants to sell, there are no buyers. When one wants to buy, there are no sellers. If you are not in a rush to sell, you wait until a buyer comes along. 

On the other hand, if there are 5 similar properties on the market in the same area, then the price would have to be lowered to what people are prepared to pay. 

Brendan


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## Brendan Burgess (23 Aug 2017)

dafter said:


> We did try to make an offer to buy out Ted's share but our offer was turned down (it was just under the value of their share of the asking price).



Then he has almost no loss in this case. The maximum he could sue for would be the difference between what you have offered him and what he would get if it were sold at the current price. 

You just have to ignore him. 

Make sure that this offer is in writing so that there is no dispute about it later. 

Brendan


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## john luc (23 Aug 2017)

as I read thiis Ted has no grounds to sue. the house sale is tied up in the cruel world of supply and demand and really nothing has a true cash price until someone is prepared to pay that price. for the rest of you its best to support each other and hope that Ted comes to their senses.


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## Seagull (23 Aug 2017)

Tell Ted that if he does sue the executor, the other legatees will sue him for any expense incurred to the estate by the executor defending against such a spurious lawsuit. And then slap some sense into him and tell him to stop acting the maggot.


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## mathepac (23 Aug 2017)

dafter said:


> Are you 100% that they can use the assets to cover their defense??


Not alone can they but they must as they're being sued in relation to their official duties as executors therefore the estate must pay for their response/defence.

It's a responsible job, done free by usually caring and trusted people and can be very difficult. I've done it twice and got a decent run apart from a pesky solicitor; I'd be very reluctant to do it again as it takes time to do a good job and you will never EVER keep everyone entirely happy.


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## noproblem (23 Aug 2017)

When you say the executors are doing the job free of charge and in their own time, am I correct in thinking that an executor/executors can recover any costs involved in carrying out their duty? The extended family (executors) who are carrying out this service for your family could very easily make it a costly affair for Ted and the rest.


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## cremeegg (23 Aug 2017)

Perhaps the house should be put to auction, after all the will said the house was to be sold, and badly as Ted is behaving, he is not unreasonable in wanting his share by now. A year is a long time for a house to be on the market anywhere.


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## mathepac (23 Aug 2017)

noproblem said:


> When you say the executors are doing the job free of charge and in their own time, am I correct in thinking that an executor/executors can recover any costs involved in carrying out their duty?


If they need to say, send out a number of letters they can recover the cost of the stamps (envelopes and paper too I guess if they want to get anal) but not the value of the time to compose, print, walk to the post office. etc. If they need an expert, valuer, accountant, lawyer, etc they can recover the invoiced costs of the consultation, but not their own time interacting with the expert.

I don't see executors in this (or most other cases for that matter) doing the dog on it costs-wise. Ted might need a "stern talking to" by his siblings or maybe even a slap as someone suggested, to get him onside, but the executors must follow the instructions the decedent left, no ifs, ands or buts (or butts even). 

Maybe if all the ducks are lined up correctly,  the executors could do worse than have a straight talk with Ted along the lines of "Now listen up Sunshine and listen up good.  Me,  Jack,  Dougall and Mrs. Molloy are in agreement as are the others parishoners. We sell the house at public auction to the highest bidder and finalise matters quickly thereafter. If this arrangement is not to your liking, this will be our last face-to-face with you. Have your lawyers communicate with our lawyers from here on out and make note, you'll be footing both sets of bills. Comprende?" That might soften Ted's cough.


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## dafter (24 Aug 2017)

Hi. It's not giving me the option to 'like' your replies, but thank you all for taking the time to reply & help me out. It is greatly appreciated.

Brendan, you are right, there are just no buyers out there right now for this. It's a beautiful house, and in great condition. Two of the siblings still live there, (not Ted) and the rest of us visit, upkeep & maintain it all the time. But there are not many people who want to take on a big 100 year old house with huge gardens when there are so many new, modern and easy manageable ones on the market. It would be a shame to see it go to a fire sale. And I think it would break my parents hearts if they knew that was happening, considering all the hard work they put into it over the years.

We have researched the area on the property price index and only 7 houses in our price bracket have sold in the last 3 years. The market is just is not there as the area is still suffering from high unemployment. And it's not crazy money that we've put it at, you'd laugh by Dublin standards! If we had the same house in Dublin we'd all be comfortably well off after the sale. As it's down the country we'll be lucky to maybe get a new car & a short holiday each as there are 8 of us. That's why this shouldn't be a big deal. In the grand scheme of things this is not the kind of money that makes or breaks you. And it certainly shouldn't break a family.

We did put the offer in writing, and we have bountiful back-and-forth emails over it. Ted has been nasty & horrible in all his correspondence, to the point that 3 of the siblings now refuse to talk with him and won't even enter the house if he is there. The fall out is just terribly sad. Extended family are tip-toeing around us like they're on eggshells, careful of who they're inviting to what. The executors will only deal with him now by email. All verbal communications have broken down. And one of my brothers won't even be in the same building as Ted. I've seen him get up and leave his lunch on the table in a bar because Ted walked in. Again, it's just desperately sad. I never thought this would happen in our family as we have always been phenomenally close & like-minded.



mathepac said:


> Not alone can they but they must as they're being sued in relation to their official duties as executors therefore the estate must pay for their response/defence.


Thank you. This has been impossible to find out. The estate's solicitor told us he wasn't sure and would go and find out, but we are still waiting on an answer. Myself and the rest of the siblings are happy to support the executors in whichever way we can. None of us have access to much cash at the moment (who does?!  ) so knowing they can use the estate if needs be is a great comfort.



Seagull said:


> Tell Ted that if he does sue the executor, the other legatees will sue him for any expense incurred to the estate by the executor defending against such a spurious lawsuit. And then slap some sense into him and tell him to stop acting the maggot.


This I loved. On all levels  Thank you! 

Again, thank you all for getting back to me. My mind is much more at ease now. You guys are great x


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## Thirsty (24 Aug 2017)

"Ted has been nasty & horrible in all his correspondence"

Not defending Ted's behaviour, but keep in mind that grief affects everyone in different ways and the death of parents can bring to the surface all sorts of family resentments that were buried for years.

Leave the door open for Ted, when all this is done and dusted - and eventually it will be - you don't want to lose a brother, life is too short.


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## cremeegg (24 Aug 2017)

dafter said:


> The will said the house was to be sold and divided equally between the children.






dafter said:


> Two of the siblings still live there, (not Ted)



Sorry to burst the bubble here, but Ted is in the right and you are in the wrong.

The will said the house was to be sold, and a year later the house has not been sold. The executors are being negligent in meeting their responsibilities.

I fully understand the reluctance to sell a house at what you perceive as undervalue, but it is not your decision. The will said the house was to be sold. If all the beneficiaries and the executors wished to wait that would be one thing, but all Ted wants is what he is entitled to under the will, and you are stopping him from getting that.

It seems clear to me that if Ted took legal action he would win and could force a sale.

Ted seems the only one in this situation with a rational approach. You can't get over the fact that you didn't inherit a house in Dublin, as for the siblings who are living (rent free?) in the house, well obviously they are in no hurry to sell.


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## mf1 (24 Aug 2017)

"It seems clear to me that if Ted took legal action he would win and could force a sale. "

See OP's first post.

"The situation is that the house has been on the market for over a year now and there have been no offers."

mf


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## cremeegg (24 Aug 2017)

mf1 said:


> See OP's first post.
> 
> The situation is that the house has been on the market for over a year now and there have been no offers."



The house could be sold at any time by putting it up for auction.


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## dafter (24 Aug 2017)

cremeegg said:


> Ted seems the only one in this situation with a rational approach. You can't get over the fact that you didn't inherit a house in Dublin, as for the siblings who are living (rent free?) in the house, well obviously they are in no hurry to sell.





Thirsty said:


> Not defending Ted's behaviour, but keep in mind that grief affects everyone in different ways and the death of parents can bring to the surface all sorts of family resentments that were buried for years



Hi. I haven't fallen out with him. In fact I'm the only one keeping all avenues open for everybody as I hate whats happening here. I was only joking over the house in Dublin bit. My point was more that all that anybody is going to see out of this is prob 40k, which, in the grand scheme of things, is not life changing, and certainly not worth falling out with your family forever over. 

Yes the other two live rent free. But Ted himself lived in the house rent free for the last 5 years until a month ago. None of us have a problem with any of the family living rent free. All that is asked of those staying in the house is that they pay the utility bills and keep the house and garden in order, which the rest of the family help out with too. Our parents mantra was, 'everybody should always have a home to come to'. So, there's no issue there with anybody living rent free, not even Ted. 

Them being there is not holding up any sale. They are all happy to move whenever it happens, and we (some of the siblings) have contingency plans to buy another house in the locality for everybody to have as a base. 

And yes, I know grief plays a part. But Ted is treating this like a business transaction. This is fine, that's his call. But common sense must also come into play. His actions are hurting so many people, on so many levels. And for that our parents would be so upset. We were always brought up to mind each other. He just wants what's 'rightfully his'. And again, that is fine. But he doesn't have to trample on everybody to get it.


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## cremeegg (24 Aug 2017)

dafter said:


> all that anybody is going to see out of this is prob 40k, which, in the grand scheme of things, is not life changing, and certainly not worth falling out with your family forever over.



Absolutely. And the difference between what you will get with a quick (though more than a year is not quick) sale and what you might get, at some point, is only a fraction of €40k.

So rather than fall out auction the house.



dafter said:


> Our parents mantra was, 'everybody should always have a home to come to'..



Yes but that time has passed, and your parents recognised that, the will specified that the house be sold.



dafter said:


> But Ted is treating this like a business transaction.



If all the siblings and the executors did that, no one would need to be upset.


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## dafter (24 Aug 2017)

_An auction doesn't guarantee a sale. The executors come across as being very sensible. However, it may have to go as a fire sale and maybe all of you (except Ted) could come together and buy it? In the meantime is it possible to distribute the remainder of the inheritance to everyone, it might cool Ted as well and give the rest of you some lolly to buy the place, if you still think it's worth it?_

Hi. We have all tried to buy it, but couldn't get a mortgage. We're all self employed and either a) not taking home enough money b) are already mortgaged, c) living abroad. Everybody is still hurting after the recession, we're all ok, just not flaithulach. And there's no remainder of the inheritance. There were only small dividends from old shares and pensions that had to be finalised etc. We used it, by agreement of all, to pay for essential maintenance (roof repairs, tree felling, etc) and to cover the utilities for a year while everything was getting sorted.

I know, it's all a bit of a mess. And I fully understand the will saying the house must be sold, but can a reserve be put on it? As in, what if it doesn't reach at auction what Ted would have gotten had he accepted our offer to buy him out? (We offered him 40k cash) Surely then an auction would be pointless? Nobody wins. Like I say, there's no issue in the house being sold, we have contingency plans. It's the threat of legal action against the executors that's what is upsetting everybody. 



cremeegg said:


> If all the siblings and the executors did that, no one would need to be upset.


I know. But when it suited Ted to stay in the house there was no mention of anything. And I know the law doesn't take into account feelings and personal circumstances, but we were devastated to lose our Mum so suddenly (our dad died previously) and to lose the family home at the same time just felt like everybody's roots and ties were being severed. I don't think there is any issue selling it now, we're just trying to be realistic over realising an asset.  

I personally never saw the loss of my parents as something that should bring me financial gain, and I see a bigger value in everybody having somewhere to call home (we're all quite transient), that's why some of us will re-invest in another house in the area. My worry for Ted is that he is cutting himself off from the family so much that he won't have that.


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## Cervelo (24 Aug 2017)

dafter said:


> We did try to make an offer to buy out Ted's share but our offer was turned down (it was just under the value of their share of the asking price).



When you say "just under the value", How much are you talking about 5k, 10k and what reason did he give for not accepting the 40k ??


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## Marsha25 (24 Aug 2017)

The fact that you haven't had any offers doesn't bode well.  Have ye reduced the price throughout the year? Ted is surely foolish for not accepting the 40k offer.  Even if it sold for more than 320k he could have an arrangement in place that would see he gets any extra that would have been due to him. TBH, I  wouldn't be hasty to reinvest in a house with siblings.  You have seen how money can bring out the bad in people so to tie yourself financially to any of them in the future could be a mistake.  It's a lovely idea to have a base at 'home' but realistically when mum and dad aren't there home is just not the same anymore.


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## noproblem (24 Aug 2017)

Have you asked Ted how much he would settle for? Always remembering the house was willed to be sold if you're all to get something


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## Vanessa (25 Aug 2017)

Thirsty said:


> "Ted has been nasty & horrible in all his correspondence"
> 
> Not defending Ted's behaviour, but keep in mind that grief affects everyone in different ways and the death of parents can bring to the surface all sorts of family resentments that were buried for years.
> 
> Leave the door open for Ted, when all this is done and dusted - and eventually it will be - you don't want to lose a brother, life is too short.



I think that if a brother behaves like that you will get on grand without him.

Now the parents have said the house is to be sold and the proceeds divided among you all. After a year Ted isnt completely unreasonable in his demands. After all what right have the rest of you to deny him his inheritance.
You have put it up for sale at a certain price. The absence of offers shows that it is clearly above the market price for the locality. Any Judge will ask the question "why not lower the price and see what offers come in?"  If this fails then put it up for auction and see what happens. If open sale or an auction does not get a buyer than Ted and the rest of you will have to negotiate an agreement or just wait until you get a buyer
As it stands you are not complying with the wishes of your parents as stated in the will.


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