# How do I find a reliable accountant?



## coppeen (12 Feb 2007)

Hi There

I need to pay back tax on shares   and want to do this in the next few months - period is probably 3/4 years and a considerable sum (to me anyway!).

The thing is I can't find anyone to recommend an accountant and don't want to take someone out of the Golden Pages.

Anyone got any ideas on how to find someone??  (based in Cork).

Thanks

C


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## Playfactory (13 Feb 2007)

Coppeen

I would advise you ask your bank manager and or your solicitor to recommend you an accountant. They will know the best guys in your area and would be in a position to point you in the right direction.


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## ClubMan (13 Feb 2007)

Personally I would not look to my bank manager or other staff for such recommendations or independent, professional advice on same.


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## Guest112 (13 Feb 2007)

Hello

If I were you Id look for a tax advisor rather than an accountant.

In my experience, even some good accountants can be rusty on tax matters,apart from the "big 4" but you'll pay dearly for these.


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## bazermc (13 Feb 2007)

APHRODITE said:


> In my experience, even some good accountants can be rusty on tax matters,apart from the "big 4" but you'll pay dearly for these.


 
Agreed, make sure they are qualified members of the institute of tax


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## Newby (13 Feb 2007)

bazermc said:


> Agreed, make sure they are qualified members of the institute of tax



Also agree.   The other option would be to talk to other people you know that are in business and see if they can recommend someone - though you probably already did that before you posted here. The Institute of Taxation listing is probably your best bet.


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## ubiquitous (13 Feb 2007)

APHRODITE said:


> If I were you Id look for a tax advisor rather than an accountant.
> 
> In my experience, even some good accountants can be rusty on tax matters,apart from the "big 4" but you'll pay dearly for these.



Are you sure you know what you are talking about? Any practising accountant that is "rusty in tax matters" wouldn't last a week in business. Oddly enough, the one sector whether this does not apply is the "big 4" and larger second-tier firms where an accountant specialising in audit, corporate finance or other specialised areas would have little ongoing exposure to tax work.


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## coppeen (14 Feb 2007)

Thanks for all the advice.  I do trust my solicitor so I think I might try him!!

Coppeen


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## Guest112 (14 Feb 2007)

Ubiquitous

We obviously have inverted experiences.

In my experience, Rusty tax accountants in smaller and medium practices are the order of the day. Obviously im not talking about routine tax matters here but rather more challenging issues where many accounting PROs seem to run out of road fairly quickly.

Regarding the Big 4, all have extremely professional tax departments with AITI specialists in Income tax,Corporation tax,CAT,VAT and CGT.
Your reference to accountants doing audit work in the Big 4, not being tax competent implies to me that you are not so familiar how these companies are run. They are mostly excellent and expensive.

My apologies for having to disagree with you so profusely.


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## alfabeta (14 Feb 2007)

A solicitor would be the last place I would go.  I agree with Aphrodite, Clubman.


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## Newby (15 Feb 2007)

APHRODITE said:


> Regarding the Big 4, all have extremely professional tax departments with AITI specialists in Income tax,Corporation tax,CAT,VAT and CGT.
> 
> Your reference to accountants doing audit work in the Big 4, not being tax competent implies to me that you are not so familiar how these companies are run.



I think Ubiquitous point was exactly that the Big 4 have separate audit and tax departments and therefore accountants in the audit section are not exposed to tax work themselves as they just take the figures the tax department give them. If you take the overall services from a Big 4 firm they are excellent (and pricey) but if you relied only on an ex-auditor in the Big 4 for tax advice then be wary.

Also i think a solicitor is usually (there may be exceptions) one of the last places to go for tax advice.


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## ubiquitous (15 Feb 2007)

Newby said:


> I think Ubiquitous point was exactly that the Big 4 have separate audit and tax departments and therefore accountants in the audit section are not exposed to tax work themselves as they just take the figures the tax department give them. If you take the overall services from a Big 4 firm they are excellent (and pricey) but if you relied only on an ex-auditor in the Big 4 for tax advice then be wary.



My point exactly. Thanks 



APHRODITE said:


> In my experience, Rusty tax accountants in smaller and medium practices are the order of the day. Obviously im not talking about routine tax matters here but rather more challenging issues where many accounting PROs seem to run out of road fairly quickly.



Obviously, accountants in general practice cannot be expected to know everything about everything, in much the same way as medical GPs are expected to know a little about everything but not everything in detail if you get my drift. 

Where an accountant in general practice encounters an issue that requires specialist expertise (for example a query on VAT on property), the usual approach is to refer the issue to a specialist. Again this is much the same approach as a GP will use in referring a patient to a medical consultant. In this era of heavy regulation and frequent litigation, any accountant (or any medic) who chooses to advise clients on topics they are not expert in will not last too long in business.

As regards the Big 4 firms, I'm not sure if they would be interested in dealing with non-clients on the type of relatively straightforward query outlined by the OP: 



coppeen said:


> I need to pay back tax on shares   and want to do this in the next few months - period is probably 3/4 years and a considerable sum (to me anyway!).


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## Taximan (15 Feb 2007)

Do not under any circumstances go to a solicitor for tax advise unless they can prove the have the AITI qualifications, they have no qualifications in the area, would you go to an carpenter for legal advise. Ask anybody in tax the amount of times they are called in after unqualified (in Tax) solicitors make a complete mess of even the most basic tax queries.

What accountants should know is when they are out of their depth on tax matters, and except for the most basic tax issues they are out of their depth in my experience. 

Go to the people who are qualified in the area the AITI website will list lots of tax specialists in Munster as previously stated.


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## Vanilla (15 Feb 2007)

> Do not under any circumstances go to a solicitor for tax advise unless they can prove the have the AITI qualifications, they have no qualifications in the area, would you go to an carpenter for legal advise. Ask anybody in tax the amount of times they are called in after unqualified (in Tax) solicitors make a complete mess of even the most basic tax queries.


 
This is totally untrue. Solicitors undertake exams in CAT, CGT, Income Tax, Stamp Duty, Corporation Tax, VAT and so on as part of their professional qualification. In fact I'd hazard a guess that solicitors deal more with CAT and stamp duty at least than most accountants. For the vast majority of clients a solicitor will be perfectly capable of doing CAT and even CGT returns as mainly these are straightforward. In some complex cases where the clients own income tax situation has a bearing, for eg, your solicitor will refer you to a tax specialist. For eg if a client came to me and said they wanted to get advice on the most tax efficient way to transfer their business or farm to their child, then more than likely, depending on the size of the operation, I would ask them to obtain advice from a tax consultant. However I deal with the CAT issues on the majority of estates I deal with. It would be most unusual to refer a stamp duty issue to a tax consultant. I wouldn't touch anybodies income tax or corporation tax issues- while I've studied the taxes I wouldn't consider myself in any way able to deal with these for anyone other than myself ( and I have a very good firm of accountants to help me there). I've done a few CGT returns for clients abroad who sell property here- again very straightforward. If I felt that it was complex I probably would refer it to a tax consultant. I wouldnt do a CGT return in relation to shares, I doubt if any solicitor would- while we probably could do it, it's just not something we do. 

As for tax consultants sorting out the messes solicitors have made, maybe that's true, but I know I have had to sort out returns made for CGT and CAT made by accountants for clients. I think that there are some accountants who just do not deal with CGT or CAT on a regular basis- and many solicitors deal with these taxes every day of their working lives. Not only do we have a professional qualification, but we also have to attend regular ongoing continuing practice development seminars and conferences to ensure that we are current in developments too. And of course, many of my colleagues have the AITI qualifications too.

In any case reading the above posts, I don't think the OP was actually suggesting they were going to get their solicitor to do it- just that they were going to ask their solicitor for a referral for someone to do it.


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## wheels (15 Feb 2007)

What are the big 4?


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## Taximan (15 Feb 2007)

Vanilla, 

Which bit is completely untrue, a solicitor has no recognised professional qualification in giving tax advise. Most people who have completed 3rd level and professional qualifications in business, accounting and  surveying have sat numerous legal exams are you suggesting that they should start giving out legal advice.

*"For the vast majority of clients a solicitor will be perfectly capable of doing CAT and even CGT returns as mainly these are straightforward." *

This is an absurd statement, anybody who has done any study in the area will know that CGT is one of the most difficult Tax heads even for  very experienced advisors. As for giving CAT advise some of the best people I have worked with  in this area are solicitors but they are also AITI qualified and that is the qualification that carries the weight in this area not the former. 

*"As for tax consultants sorting out the messes solicitors have made, maybe that's true, but I know I have had to sort out returns made for CGT and CAT made by accountants for clients"*

You are not disproving my point you are merely trying to highlight that some accountants can be equally inept at something they are not properly qualified to do either, I agree. I would be stunned if you ever had to sort out a return made by someone with the *Correct Professional Qualification AITI.*

*"And of course, many of my colleagues have the AITI qualifications too."*

Again what are you proving, only my point go to a person with the correct qualification, the fact they are a solicitor, plasterer, farmer, doctor as well makes no difference. However in my tax class there were about 100 students, we had 2 solicitors and about 70 accountants, this sample might be skewed I don’t know. I would be surprised if the % of solicitors with AITI was anywhere north of 10%.


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## ubiquitous (15 Feb 2007)

It is true that there are accountants out there providing bad tax advice.
It is true that there are solicitors out there providing tax bad advice.
It is true that there are AITI members out there providing bad tax advice.

I don't accept for a second that AITI members are somehow infallible and uniquely special in that they can automatically be trusted on the basis of their qualifications and not on their reputations. For what its worth, ITI members differ from their accountancy and legal peers in that the ITI has no statutory regulatory and disciplinary powers over its members, nor does it to my knowledge have a formal complaints procedure which aggrieved clients can use in the event of problems. 

In contrast, solicitors and most accountants operate under regulatory regimes operated respectively by the Law Society and Accountancy Institutes, which are largely designed to protect the interests of the firms' clients.


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## Vanilla (15 Feb 2007)

> Which bit is completely untrue, a solicitor has no recognised professional qualification in giving tax advise.


 
Yes, that bit is untrue. As I have already stated, solicitors ARE qualified to give tax advice. We undertake training and exams in various taxes as part of our training.  

[QUOTEMost people who have completed 3rd level and professional qualifications in business, accounting and surveying have sat numerous legal exams are you suggesting that they should start giving out legal advice.][/QUOTE]

No. Obviously there are degrees of knowledge and training. Solicitors undergo intensive and very detailed training in CAT, CGT and stamp duty as these are taxes that most solicitors deal with and advise on every day. We also have some training in other taxes but mainly this wouldn't be as intensive and I don't think the majority of solicitors would deal with any tax other than the above three, aside from some run of the mill VAT or other queries. 



> This is an absurd statement, anybody who has done any study in the area will know that CGT is one of the most difficult Tax heads even for very experienced advisors.


 
Saying that for the main part the CGT returns that my clients require will for the main part be straightforward is not the same thing as saying that all CGT returns are straightforward. I'm not surprised that you don't understand this as you clearly don't have indepth knowledge of the type of CGT scenarios that will arise commonly in a solicitors office.

As I'm sure you are aware, the AITI recognises the training solicitors have in certain taxes by giving them automatic exemptions in certain subjects. 

I never said I had to sort out a return made by someone with an AITI qualification. However I would completely agree with Ubi, in that I don't think an AITI qualification in itself makes someone infallible. I also believe that you don't have to have an AITI qualification to be good at certain taxes or to be an expert even.


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## Newby (15 Feb 2007)

Vanilla said:


> Yes, that bit is untrue. As I have already stated, solicitors ARE qualified to give tax advice. We undertake training and exams in various taxes as part of our training.


 I couldn't tell you about some of the stuff I studied for some of those exams. Practical experience (and talk to other people with practical experiece) is far more beneficial than exams for tax advice.



Vanilla said:


> Solicitors undergo intensive and very detailed training in CAT, CGT and stamp duty as these are taxes that most solicitors deal with and advise on every day. We also have some training in other taxes but mainly this wouldn't be as intensive and I don't think the majority of solicitors would deal with any tax other than the above three, aside from some run of the mill VAT or other queries.


 Fair enough about the solicitors having some experience and am sure that solicitors that have learned from others dealing with tax queries on a regular basis are more than competant. I don't think that this is the norm though. 

From my experience solicitors veer away from anything to do with numbers (tax included) and more towards words. I have talked to some very high up individuals within a solicitor firm with limited tax knowledge in some of the areas you mention (CAT and CGT - they seem to know a good deal about SD)

Tax, like accountaning and soliciting p couldn't resist) very much depends on the individual providing the advice, their  experience of the issues and the complexity of the matter - oh and the cost!.


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## Taximan (15 Feb 2007)

Vanila by taking a few modules in tax dose not give you a recognised professional tax qualification. 

*“ As I'm sure you are aware, the AITI recognises the training solicitors have in certain taxes by giving them automatic exemptions in certain subjects.”*

This is correct Solicitors receive two exemptions out of 12 possible exams, Obliviously a high degree of weight put on their extensive study in the area, this by the way this is the same as what a general business graduate will receive. A recently qualified accountant will get four exemptions. 

I would not suggest that having the qualification makes one infallible, but what you might admit is that the individuals who are working in Tax and have completed the required exams, will in *general terms* be in a better position to give advise on this area then someone who occasionally dips in and has no recognised tax qualifications what so ever. 

As for Ubi’s hilarious reference to *self-regulation* giving some form of superiority to one professional body over another is a joke.  The vast majority of ITI members are like myself accountants who have specialised in tax.

Newby your point about experience is well made, it is invaluable but you do need the broad academic base, you have to understand how all the tax heads work when giving advise otherwise you could easily miss something and end up costing your client money.


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## ubiquitous (15 Feb 2007)

Taximan said:


> As for Ubi’s hilarious reference to *self-regulation* giving some form of superiority to one professional body over another is a joke.



Unlike yourself I never claimed superiority, but simply pointed out that the respective ICAI, ACCA, CPA Institute & Law Society regulatory systems do provide a safety net for clients when they are victims of incompetence on the part of professionals. 

What protection does the ITI afford to clients when one of their members slips up?


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## Vanilla (15 Feb 2007)

ubiquitous said:


> Unlike yourself I never claimed superiority


 
Says it all, really.


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## CCOVICH (15 Feb 2007)

I think everyone has said enough at this stage on accountant v. tax advisor v. solictitor, so let's leave it at that.

The OP asked



			
				copeen said:
			
		

> The thing is I can't find anyone to recommend an accountant and don't want to take someone out of the Golden Pages.
> 
> Anyone got any ideas on how to find someone?? (based in Cork).


 
Any more suggestions?


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## Newby (15 Feb 2007)

Maybe ask someone in a club you are involved with or at work to suggest someone (accountant / tax advisor / solicitor ) that they have used. Ask family members if they have ever used anyone.


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## eggnog (16 Feb 2007)

In my experience that is a big difference between those who know how to do the calculation and those who KNOW how to and what to do with the calculations. Solicitors being good at their job, well some of them anyway, know how to do them, but a good Tax Advisor knows what to do with them and even some alternatives. But I would never go to a Tax Advisor for legal advice.


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## Vanilla (16 Feb 2007)

Just to point out- again- that a solicitor is very unlikely to do or to want to do a CGT return in relation to shares. Best bet is an accountant or tax advisor.


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## The Pool Boy (16 Feb 2007)

I'm a qualified accountant who studied tax when qualifying. Still doesn't mean I know everything about tax. I don't.

Tax law changes every year and unless you are working with it on a day to day basis then it doesn't take long to fall behind. 

Most medium size accountancy practices would have at least one person in the partnership that would specialize in tax. Make sure the firm you do use has access to that resource.


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## coppeen (18 Feb 2007)

Ok - I'm going to the AITI website - I actually thought an accountant WAS a tax expert - so this has really helped!!

Thanks for opening my eyes on that one - personally I would never use my Solicitor for this purpose but might get his view on if he knows anyone..

Thanks a million for ALL the responses, it's really helped - I'll let ye know how big the tax bill was!!

Coppeen


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## bazermc (18 Feb 2007)

Somebody close the thread before a fight between accountants, solictors and tax consultants breaks out, boring and all as that would be


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## Spondulicks (18 Feb 2007)

Now there's a thought. A qualified accountant who is also a member of the Institute of Tax. This has an appeal in that the person should understand how to put the accounts together and how to tax the result. 
Ideally you want a designer who will help you structure the transactions from the outset : that is a combination of technical knowledge, craft and street knowledge. 

Reputation is key. A recommendation is worth a ton of brochures. I am sometimes asked to recommend an accountant to a wide audience and I refuse to do that as it depends on :
- what can you afford
- how ambitious you are for your business
- how wide a range of services would you want
- how complex is your current tax situation
- how much do you want exposure to other tax or investment opportunities
- how much do you know already : do you want a cradle to grave type service or more an execution only type approach.

There is an accountant out there for every situation but the key is to find the fit for your circumstances and outlook on tax planning.


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