# RTE programme "Taking Care of Business"



## Steve Thatcher

A new documentary appears tonight on RTE 1 at 8.30 called Taking Care of Business. There is a rumour that the episode I filmed on going bankrupt in the UK UK will be screened on 8th or 15th August. No idea what it looks like, or how the topic is to be treated but I hope it treats the the process with some sympathy.

Anyway, its a heads up for everyone interested in this topic and I hope you and others get something from it.

Steve Thatcher
www.irishbankruptuk.com


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## Steve Thatcher

I have been told this is now going out on 8th August 8.30



Steve Thatcher said:


> A new documentary appears tonight on RTE 1 at 8.30 called Taking Care of Business. There is a rumour that the episode I filmed on going bankrupt in the UK UK will be screened on 8th or 15th August. No idea what it looks like, or how the topic is to be treated but I hope it treats the the process with some sympathy.
> 
> Anyway, its a heads up for everyone interested in this topic and I hope you and others get something from it.
> 
> Steve Thatcher
> www.irishbankruptuk.com


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## Reacher

Steve Thatcher said:


> I have been told this is now going out on 8th August 8.30



Interesting show Steve - I thought the subject matter was dealt with fairly - the advisors seemed genuinely surprised the client decided not to go down the bankruptcy route - I thought his final remarks about running away from debt were a bit disappointing and belong to a bygone era of stigma about these things but on balance it was a good show.


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## Brendan Burgess

Reacher said:


> the advisors seemed genuinely surprised the client decided not to go down the bankruptcy route - .



It's here

http://www.rte.ie/player/ie/show/10188219/

I only got the first 6 minutes of it, and kept getting an error message  "Stream not found(Failed after 1 retries) 

It's interesting so far.   He owes €4m on 10 properties worth €2m.  

He got €10,000 from Dragon's Den for 20% of his new buisness  tenantreference.ie  . That would be about one month's rent. 

I saw George Mordaunt appearing in the trailer for the programme. He will be in Episode 5 which is on 22nd August. Should be a bit of craic. I thought George was advising people and writing books about how to deal with debt?


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## mercman

Reacher +1 on your comments.

It was a fairly decent show, that gave an honest approach, and  which displayed the reality of the way some people have got caught themselves. The interesting thing was the Bank in question weren't named and obviously didn't allow the program producers to allow them to be named. 

Joe, was an example of the thousands of people in this country that have been swallowed by debt and have no way to work their way out of their problems.


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## Cantalia

Good show in that it simply said to the bank look you have the guys salary for the next 3,5 or 8 years under our new insolvency regime. Hilarious. The bank will be lucky to get 10k a year off him. It's utterly irrelevant if they get it or not in the context of the debt. They'll waste it on the cost of managing it and should just take the sale monies and write it off. This was the biggest case for write offs I have seen. It was almost pitiful to see the bank was not confirming its agreement to his offer but simple stated at the end they were still "  working" with him. I don't know who I felt more sorry for. The poor guy thinking he might get to keep him home or the bank thinking taking it will make a difference.


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## mercman

Brendan Burgess said:


> writing books about how to deal with debt?



And this program tonight displayed the Irish banking theory is not to let anyone off the hook, unless they export themselves to the UK.

What the program did display is after 5.5 years, we have all learned nothing and it really is a case of 'Your money or your life.' Irish Banks want both.


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## Cantalia

But I suppose that if he gets his salary out of his new business, and gives the bottom line profit, if any, to the bank for the next five years he has not done too badly after all. He may find himself enormously relieved to be rid of minding all those properties, get rid of them in a Fire sale and focus on his new job. I would also be interested to see if subsequent to filming he changed his mind and decided to head for the UK.


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## mercman

Cantalia said:


> I would also be interested to see if subsequent to filming he changed his mind and decided to head for the UK.



Will we ever be privileged with this information ?? In the interests of fairness to him, and although I'm not a supporter of the UK bankruptcy route he would probably be better off.


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## Brendan Burgess

The programme was a bit unsatisfactory - more interest in his iron man than in the actual figures. 

This guy has only one decision to make - whether to go bankrupt in the UK or in Ireland - but to examine a PIA along the way.

But he isn't smart enough to see that. He went on about retaining two businesses he has. But they are not profitable businesses, so losing them wouldn't make any difference. 

It's a pity that RTE couldn't get away from "Let's entertain you" to "Let's actually educate and inform you". The most useful part was Steve Thatcher's practical advice about UK bankruptcy .  There should have been more of this and less of the iron man stuff. 

They should have compared the UK and Irish bankruptcy option. He is probably a candidate for Irish bankruptcy as he seems tied to the country. 

With a PIA, he might actually have kept his house, although I don't see why he would want to keep it at a cost of being stuck in a PIA for 6 years.

But they should also have spent time explaining the PIA process.  With ten loans, probably from different banks, this could have been very interesting.  Rather than putting an airy fairy proposal to the bank, they should have simply recommended a very favourable PIA and told the banks that he would be going bankrupt if they don't approve of it. End of story.


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## Brendan Burgess

mercman said:


> the Bank in question weren't named and obviously didn't allow the program producers to allow them to be named.



The bank would have had no say over whether or not they were named. The  program producers decided not to name them - I think it's RTE policy.  I suspect that there many banks involved and that the story was simplified somewhat for television.





mercman said:


> And this program tonight displayed the Irish banking theory is not to let anyone off the hook, unless they export themselves to the UK.
> 
> What the program did display is after 5.5 years, we have all learned nothing and it really is a case of 'Your money or your life.' Irish Banks want both.



The programme displayed nothing of the sort. 

We didn't get the banks' side of the story.
We don't know if it was one bank or many banks. 

We know that the banks do not do deals before properties are sold, so it was a bit of a waste proposing some silly deal beforehand. 

There was very little about the banks. We don't know his history with the banks except that he had occasionally missed a payment.  We don't know if he was paying the interest on the mortgages or nothing at all. 

This programme told us nothing at all about the banks.


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## Cantalia

I agree with Brendan's points above re the lack of detail.I have not been in favour of write downs for the last number of years, however over the last six months or so my thoughts have changed and when I see a case like that in this program it is clear that you cannot enslave people to a debt for years and years. That the little bit that banks will squeeze out of a person year after year is meaningless as the interest on the debt continues to mount. Of course the banks can't allow a fee for all. We desperately need to get these insolvency cases going. We need to see how PIPs and Banks manage this new process and we need to see the types of outcomes. If its all kept secret there will be no consistency of arrangements which will only lead to more difficulty. It is shame we didn't get an account of the banks reaction to their five year proposal. 
Brendan, whilst I know the devil is in the detail and the bona fides of paying something as opposed to nothing is a matter of principal in how one deals with monies owed, in this case I felt it was irrevelent as he could never make a dent in the outstanding debt once the assets were sold. So in that respect i felt it made little difference to the story. 
Perhaps you thought it would shed light on the Banks behaviour.


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## Brendan Burgess

Cantalia said:


> Brendan, whilst I know the devil is in the detail and the bona fides of paying something as opposed to nothing is a matter of principal in how one deals with monies owed, in this case I felt it was irrevelent as he could never make a dent in the outstanding debt once the assets were sold. So in that respect i felt it made little difference to the story.
> Perhaps you thought it would shed light on the Banks behaviour.



There was something not quite right about the story, so I would like to know more of the background. 

On the face of it, I would certainly accept that the best outcome for this guy is to sell the properties and write the shortfall off immediately. Give him a fresh start. He seems to have some potential and let him realise that potential. 

But it makes no sense that he doesn't want to go bankrupt. He gave no legitimate reasons for this. No reasons which the advisors could not  have zapped instantly.

I would like to know his payment record. Assuming he has been cooperative, then write off the stuff immediately. If he has been messing the bank around, hiding money, etc, then I would have less sympathy for him. Having said that, the bankruptcy process doesn't really distinguish between strategic defaulters and strategic engagers.


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## Brendan Burgess

How would I advise this guy 

1) Show me the numbers - €4m loans and €2m assets - bankruptcy. 
2) If there is only one lender see if there is some scope for a deal outside a PIA or bankruptcy - Sell properties on cheap trackers. Write down the mortgages to the value of the remaining properties + 20%.  Alternatively write down mortgages on trackers as well and switch to SVR.   This would take a lot of negotiation. 
3) The identity of the lender is important. It was probably Bank of Scotand  Ireland, who just want the properties sold and will do a deal afterwards.  
4) Look at the potential of his new business.  Some guy bought 20% of it for €10k, so it's worth €50k.  Not worth holding up a solution on the bigger issue. 

Now how do we make a programme about that? 
_I _would show the numbers as I do in Case Studies on askaboutmoney.
That would be very useful but TV producers wouldn't hear of it - they think that the  public wouldn't have the attention span. 
I would name the banks involved  but just in a factual way.  
I would explain how a PIA might work. 
I would do a comparison of Irish and UK bankruptcy. 
If he was genuinely opposed to bankruptcy, I would have an intense on-air interview with him and challenge him robustly on the irrationality of his stated position. 

By the way, why were there two presenters?  I don't think having two adds very much.


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## Cantalia

Your points are well made. 
I think he was afraid to lose his two new businesses during the 6month COMI and 12months thereafter. Afraid someone would just steal the tenants reference business idea, the one that seems to have most potential. These businesses are his leveage going forward into a PIA rather than the bank forcing an Irish Bankruptcy on him. I also expect he hopes to hold onto his home in a PIA. He would have to give up both of these to go to the UK as he can't have any assets. I am beginning to see that Irish people are hoping an Irish PIA will be easier to handle than the brutal get-rid-of-everything UK bankruptcy, especially most especially the hope of hanging onto a home. Once you've been declared bankrupt there is a huge fear that you will never again be given a home loan. No matter where you tavel the application form will ask have you ever been bankrupt. Perhaps this is why we haven't seen the huge numbers of UK bankruptcies that one might expect.  We may all be in for a sharp shock once these PIA's get started. Or not???


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## Steve Thatcher

To give some back ground. When I recorded this, I had no info about his debts, I was just told to explain the process for bankruptcy in the Uk. Hence there may be lack of context here. I had no real feel that the guy was actually in trouble. He didn't talk about specifics about his problem.

Steve Thatcher
www.stevethatcher.ie


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## Cantalia

Now that is very disappointing.


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## Brendan Burgess

Steve

That is so frustrating to hear that. 

A much better programme would have been to have you and an Irish insolvency practitioner advising him, although I assume that you would recommend a PIA or DSA if you felt it more appropriate than UK bankruptcy. 

Brendan


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## Steve Thatcher

Brendan Burgess said:


> Steve
> 
> That is so frustrating to hear that.
> 
> A much better programme would have been to have you and an Irish insolvency practitioner advising him, although I assume that you would recommend a PIA or DSA if you felt it more appropriate than UK bankruptcy.
> 
> Brendan



which is what i do for everyone i consult for. The only advice worth giving is the right advice.

Steve Thatcher
www.stevethatcher.ie


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## Brendan Burgess

I watched the latest edition last  night. 

It's a great idea for a programme, but very poorly executed. 

Last night it was about this guy who had taken over Griffins Bakery, a long-established bakery from his parents in recent years. 

There were very few numbers - he seemed to have borrowed €2m to buy a property and business valued at €3.5m. According to [broken link removed]he paid €1.5m in 2008. He probably spent €500k on developing it. 

He expected to increase  business but it declined by 50% instead. 

But there was no indication of the extent of the problem. 

I suspect that he has a profitable trading business but is just unable to service the money borrowed to buy the building. In which case a restructure should be achievable.  

But that is the key measure and we got no information on it. It might be that the business is inherently unprofitable and the whole lot has to close. 

He is the 5th generation in the business and he wants to keep it going, which is understandable. But if he borrowed €2m to buy it from his parents, then would his mother still have the €2m to buy it back?(His father has since passed away)   Let the current owner go for a PIA or bankrupt, and his mother could buy the business and get a fresh start employing her son. 

Or even simpler, to avoid all that, the bank could do a write down of debt, if the mother paid a lump-sum now.

The most useful part of the programme was again, the outsider they brought in to advise. They brought in a brand consultant who had good ideas about the decoration of the shop and the shop front. They implemented the ideas, but unfortunately sales have continued to decline.


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## Importer

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

These programs intrigue me with their approach. 

They never seem to concede that the main reason for declining sales 
is much more likely to be as a direct result of a lower disposable income of the customer base rather than a problem with the business itself.

You can paint the shop front as many times as you like, and make the menu prettier and better but in the end of the day if the populus general has declining disposable income then it is very understandable to expect declining sales in this type of business.

I suspect that the main problem with Griffins is that he bought out the business at the wrong time and for too much money. I would guess that the main problem is one of legacy debt arising from this rather than a problem of the business itself.


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## Brendan Burgess

Importer said:


> I would guess that the main problem is one of legacy debt arising from this rather than a problem of the business itself.



Hi Importer

I agree which is why I would like the programme to have addressed this issue. 

Brendan


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## Importer

Clearly they were tip-toeing around the real issue giving us a Fergal Quinn type analysis of the business when actually the main problem was not explored in any great depth. From the owners point of view, i can understand that also.


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