# The Terror Threat and how the US deals with it



## piggy (4 Aug 2004)

I was listening to a journalist (for the Sunday Tribune I think) on the Last Word on my way home last night. She was talking about the terror alert system they have in the US. However, what amazed me was the revelation that Wyoming has better security (more money per head of capita) than New York. She said that it is also possible to buy ammonium nitrate in any outlet in the US, without any form of identification. Ammonium nitrate is a major component in the making of a bomb. The point she was making was that she could go to the US, buy Ammonium Nitrate and blow something up (like a car for instance) all in the same day.
It leads some people to believe that the terror threat, or terror talk has more to do with politics than genuine concern for US citizens.

In relation to the terror threat alerts themselves, some people in political circles (and beyone I'm sure) believe Bush is playing the terror card....
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3532176.stm
*BBC diplomatic correspondent Jonathan Marcus says some leading Democrats believe that the Bush administration is playing the terrorism card for all it is worth. 

But he adds that whatever lies behind this heightened alert, the broader threat remains real enough and is likely to grow as November's election gets closer.* 

I think it's fair enough to say that the threat is real though and could be argued that they're damned if they put the alert up and damned if they don't. 

However, one has to wonder why, in a country where they (have to) take terror so seriously you could build a bomb anonimously and with such great ease.


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## davido (4 Aug 2004)

There are 4,000 fewer police officers in New York now than there were before 9/11.  They obviously take their security very seriously.


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## shnaek (4 Aug 2004)

www.theregister.com/2004/..._football/


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## piggy (4 Aug 2004)

The phrase 'media manipulation' springs to mind alright.


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## Kermut (4 Aug 2004)

*Is the terrorist threat real or not!*

I heard this American gink on the radio announcing in very important tones that the terrorist alert was being raised to High.  

He then went on to soothe the folks by saying you ran more risk driving 20 miles to work than from terrorists.  Talk about mixed messages - if the risk is that low statistically why the enormous resources (in human life and dollars) expended to combat it.

It seems to me that if the resources were directed to a War against Road Traffic Accidents the results would be immediate and very impressive.  Imagine marines patrolling the Freeways with tanks.  Dangerous drivers being arrested without trial and taken to Gantanamo for a bit of torture lite. Less dangerous but nonetheless careless drivers being dragged from their cars, stripped and then urinated on.  I tell you, the RTA fatalities would collapse.


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## Paul (5 Aug 2004)

*terror*

If a dangerous driver or careless driver drives his / her car in to a major building ( such as a New York skyscraper ) it is unlikely to result in such loss of life and property as 9/11.

The American legal system, like the Irish one, does deal with road traffic offences.

It is difficult to deal with Muslim suicide fanatics, when they want to wipe out our civilization.


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## yareally (5 Aug 2004)

*terror*



> It is difficult to deal with Muslim suicide fanatics, when they want to wipe out our civilization.


"Our civilization" as you call it Paul does a better job of wiping itself out than Muslim suicide fanatics.  The amount of people killed in 9/11 was less than a third of the total Americans killed by other Americans in the same year.  Maybe Al Queada should leave us alone to do thier job for them.  We're obviously better at it.


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## l (8 Aug 2004)

*America*

America is not perfect but it still does not fly jets in to its own skyscrapers.    It does not share Bin Ladens goal of it becoming a Muslim state. It allows much greater liberty and freedom compared to most of the middle eastern countries.


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## shnaek (9 Aug 2004)

*Re: America*

Some would say it does fly jets into its own skyscrapers....


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## owensy (9 Aug 2004)

*Terror Threat on America*

As a chemist it is amazing that you can buy Ammonium Nitrate in any convenience store... such a lethal chemical if placed in the wrong hands..
As some will know i am a staunch backer of the US, (not Bush),however but do feel something like this example is typical... just like there gun laws... but as Paul said if these Muslim 
fanatics want to wipe our civilization out there is very little we can do... And it baffles me how posters on this site can defend these crazed animals... and say things like "we are doing a good job of wiping out our civilization ourselves"

These Islamic and Muslim fanatics are worse than any army or
government.... be-heading of hostage and suicide bombing is totally insane and scum like this should be wiped out...
they are a treat to our lives and existing on this planet...


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## shnaek (9 Aug 2004)

*Re: Terror Threat on America*

Could you point out who these animals and scum are, and give us their life story? You have such a strong opinion of them that I am sure you must know a good deal about them.


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## Tizona (10 Aug 2004)

*Islamic fundamentalistm*

Every country in the world where there are Muslims you find Islamic fundamentalism to some degree, and they create trouble wherever they are.

Point them out?
Go to any mosque in a western country - they are the guys in nightdresses with the long beards.


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## isee (10 Aug 2004)

*....*

titsonly shows his true colours.


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## Tizona (10 Aug 2004)

*CH4*

Perhaps you watched tonights Channel 4 program...'Who you callin' a nigger'?
Excellent stuff it was...and refreshingly honest. 

It was made by a black presenter, and highlighted the racism being perpetrated by mainly muslim asians and Somali immigrants against...wait for it...another minority ethnic group. West Indians.

So there goes your cat calling 'Racist' excuse.

The common denominator among the agressors was Islam...and the Pakistani boys were quick to point out that their religion was central to their separate identity.

After smirking that 'Islam is a religion of peace man' they then whipped out their mobile phones with the Osama Bin Liner logos and proceeded to threaten the black presenter with physical violence if he didn't get out of their territory!

No, this wasn't downtown Karachi, but central Birmingham. 
Multiculturalism me bum.

Listen...Islam is a religion of Jihad, of Separatism, and of Bigotry. It teaches hatred of all non believers by branding you as infidels and dirty.

Call a bloody spade a spade before we end up with a Central Birmingham here in Ireland.


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## Colada (10 Aug 2004)

*CH4*

www.channel4.com/history/...istorymap/

[broken link removed]


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## ElCid (10 Aug 2004)

*Tolkien and Civilization*

Tolkien & Civilization

Gimli on our generational challenge.

By Steve Beard 

When you see him in person, John Rhys-Davies looks a lot taller than he does on the screen. That's because clever camera angles and movie magic were utilized to make the 6'1 British actor fit the part of his height-challenged and axe-wielding dwarf character named Gimli in The Lord of the Rings trilogy. 

On the day of the Hollywood premiere, he stormed into the press suite at the Four Seasons Hotel with all of the gregariousness and dry wit of his irrepressible character. (He also provides the voice for Treebeard.) Crammed around a table in the center of the room sat a handful of journalists and film critics who had seen The Return of the King — the final installment of the trilogy — the night before. 

"O.K., let's try to sabotage a career again!" he said jokingly, hinting at his willingness to make the interview more memorable — whether he was talking about the filmability of J. R. R. Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings or the potential downfall of Western Civilization. 


To most movie fans, Rhys-Davies is most recognizable for his role as Sallah, an Egyptian archeologist, in the blockbuster films Raiders of the Lost Ark and Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. (It has been rumored that he may also appear in Indiana Jones IV.) He was here, however, to make his rounds at the press junket for The Return of the King. 

"As you remember, Tolkien, I think, sold the original rights for a hundred pounds because he didn't think the book could ever be made into a film," he said. "And he's right. It's unfilmable.... If you are going to tell the story in the book...you will break all the rules of Filmmaking 101. The structure's impossible." He praised director Peter Jackson, however, for struggling to make the structure work for the film without sacrificing "fidelity to the book."

When it was pointed out that Gimli is one of the principal characters of comic relief in the movies, Rhys-Davies took it in stride. Rather humorously, he synopsized the structure of The Lord of the Ring as follows: "Something's quite nice, and then something bad goes wrong, and then there's a fight, and then something gets worse, and then there's a bigger fight, and then things look really bad, and then there's a battle, and then things look really, really bad, and then there's a bigger battle, and then things look really, really bad." 

Cutting into the laughter, he continued. "That's the structure of the damn thing. And you can't have that mounting tension all the way through. So we needed to find ways of sort of releasing the tension," he said. "And we decided that Gimli was probably the way to do it. Because there's something innately funny about Gimli." 

While Rhys-Davies strikes you as happy-go-lucky actor with a hearty laugh, there was one subject that brought the laughter to a halt as he spoke with sober intonations: the future of Western Civilization. 

*"I'm burying my career so substantially in these interviews that it's painful. But I think that there are some questions that demand honest answers," he confessed after being asked about how much resonance he had with Tolkien's religious beliefs and perspectives.

"I think that Tolkien says that some generations will be challenged. And if they do not rise to meet that challenge, they will lose their civilization. That does have a real resonance with me," he responded.*

Rhys-Davies's unique childhood was spent in both the United Kingdom and colonial Africa. While he viewed the experience as an "ideal background for being an actor," one also senses that it contributes to his passionate beliefs about Western values. 

He recalled a conversation with his father back in the summer of 1955 as the two of them overlooked the Dar Es Salaam harbor in Tanzania. He remembers his father pointing to a boat and saying, "Twice a year it comes down from Aden [in Yemen]. It stops here and goes down [south]. On the way down it's got boxes of machinery and goods. On the way back up it's got two or three little black boys on it. Now, those boys are slaves. And the United Nations will not let me do anything about it." 

*As the conversation continued on that warm summer day, his father said, "Look, boy, there is not going to be a world war between Russia and the United States. The next world war will be between Islam and the West." "Dad, you're nuts," Rhys-Davies responded. "The Crusades have been over for hundreds of years!'"* (Precocious as it sounds at age 11, he points out that he did indeed know a "bit about history.") After all, it was 1955. Dwight D. Eisenhower was president of the United States and the Cold War was front-burner foreign policy.

His father responded, *"Well, I know but militant Islam is on the rise again. And you will see it in your lifetime." *

Although his father has passed on, Rhys-Davies said that "there's not a day that goes by that I don't think of him and think, 'God, I wish you were here, just so I could tell you that you were right.'" 

Many of the Lord of the Rings actors have utilized their newfound fame to embrace political causes. Viggo Mortensen ("Aragron") bashes President Bush with low-simmered contempt, Sean Astin ("Sam") has hinted at running for political office, while Billy Boyd ("Pippin") and Dominc Monaghan ("Merry") promote various environmental causes.

Rhys-Davies, however, runs contrary to the prevailing political sentiment of the industry that feeds him. "You do realize that in this town [Hollywood], what I've been saying is rather like, sort of — oh well, I can't find a comparable blasphemy ... but we've got to get a bit serious." 

Surveying the room, he said: *"What is unconscionable is that too many of your fellow journalists do not understand how precarious Western civilization is and what a joy it is. From it, we get real democracy. From it, we get the sort of intellectual tolerance that allows me to propound something that may be completely alien to you around this table...." He continued by saying, "The abolition of slavery comes from Western democracy. True democracy comes from our Greco-Judeo-Christian-Western experience. If we lose these things, then this is a catastrophe for the world." He pointed out that while projected population statistics in Western Europeans will be falling sharply over the next 20 years, Islam will become more prominent in those countries.*

"There is a change happening in the very complexion of Western Civilization in Europe that we should think about, at least, and argue about," he said. "If it just means the replacement of one genetic stock with another genetic stock, that doesn't matter too much. But if it involves the replacement of Western Civilization with a different civilization with different cultural values, then it is something we really ought to discuss."

Recognizing the sheer politically incorrect nature of his commentary, he summed it up by saying, "I am for dead white male culture" — utilizing a derogatory catchphrase used on college campuses to describe Western Culture.

As Rhys-Davies stood to leave the room, he jokingly asked the writers to make sure to "put verbs in my sentences" and concluded by saying: "By and large, our cultures and our society are resilient enough to put up with any sort of nonsense. But if Tolkien's got a message, it's, 'Sometimes you've got to stand up and fight for what you believe in.' He knew what he was fighting for in World War I."

— Steve Beard is the editor of Good News magazine and the creator of Thunderstruck.org.

[broken link removed]


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## piggy (10 Aug 2004)

*Re: CH4*

 -- (prejudice against Muslims; "Muslim intellectuals are afraid of growing Islamophobia in the West")

UK 'Islamophobia' rises after 11 September

At least you finally managed to spit out your views on multiculturism Tizona. You're afraid of all those Muslims.

shnaek asked...*Could you point out who these animals and scum are, and give us their life story?*

Your reply...*Point them out?
Go to any mosque in a western country - they are the guys in nightdresses with the long beards.* 

Needless to say I don't really think there is much debating to be done here. I don't think you'll ever see how racist your views are. Islamic fundamentalist terrorists do indeed pose a threat to the world - but they are a small minority. Paramount to securing a peaceful future for all of us is taking a balanced view and understanding that Muslims are generally peaceful people (albeit very different from those of us born in predominantly Catholic Western societies).
All you succeed in doing with this is inciting hatred towards Muslims in general and continuing the mindless cycle of fear that is being bred in western society. Islam is not your enemy Tizona...you are.


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## Tizona (11 Aug 2004)

*Islamophobia*



> Islam is not your enemy Tizona...you are.



Eh?
Thats either very deep or very dumb. I suspect the latter.
A Bushism from Piggy.

One thing you may not have noticed yet...I'm not the only individual in the whole wide western world pointing out the threat frrom Islam. So don't credit me with being solely responsible for speaking out. I'd be quite glad to take all the credit, but I'm afraid I can't.

You didn't adress the quotes from the Muslims interviewed on that program. Come on...explain to me why we shouldn't worry when the same bunch of Pakistanis stated that 'We're gonna turn this city into Pakistan. Our muslim brothers are coming here every day...illegal passports, whatever...the muslim brotherhood is waking up worldwide.'

One other thing by the way.


> I don't think you'll ever see how *racist* your views are.



Racist? Don't understand how you interpret my dislike of ISLAM as being equivalent to racism, since muslims are found among *every race, including white western males and females*. Are you not up to speed on that fact? Do you think its only a religion for little brown people from the middle east? Whos a racist!

PS I never made any secret of my views on multiculturalism. I contributed to a whole thread on the subject (which you lost as I recall).


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## ElCid (11 Aug 2004)

*Islam*

From the Koran

1) I will instil terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above their necks (decapitate) and smite all their finger tips off them. (Koran 8:12)

2) Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. (Koran 9:29)

3) Those who resist Allah and his messenger will be humbled to dust. (Koran 58:5)

4) *The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn for ever in the fire of Hell. They are the vilest of all creatures. Koran (98:6)*

5) The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution or crucifixion, or the cutting off of the hands and feet from opposite sides or exile from the land (Koran 5:33)

6) A Muslim may not be killed if he kills a non-Muslim 

7) Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him.Sahih Al-Bukhari (9:57).

7) Idolatry is more grievous than bloodshed... fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme" (Sura 2:91-93).

Please check the passages out: www.al-quran.org.uk/


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## Colada (11 Aug 2004)

*Islam*

www.yahoodi.com/peace/dhimma.html


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## purple (11 Aug 2004)

*The real debate?*



> "If it just means the replacement of one genetic stock with another genetic stock, that doesn't matter too much. But if it involves the replacement of Western Civilization with a different civilization with different cultural values, then it is something we really ought to discuss."


 How can you not agree with that Piggy? 
This is a real debate and while we should be very careful not to be racist of xenophobic and make comments like "Go to any mosque in a western country - they are the guys in nightdresses with the long beards" as they undermine any argument that one makes. We should equally not brand everyone who questions the wisdom of allowing a culture that is totally alien to secular democratic values to take a foot-hold in the secular democratic west as a racist.
Europe went through two hundred years of religious wars in the 14 and 1500's before the modern nation state that allowed religious freedom as long as is took second place to loyalty to the state. 
Islam seeks to create a society or state on earth that is totally bound up in the writings of the Koran, as does Christianity. The difference is that Christianity no longer seeks to impose this on th outward workings of the state and so in that sense is an internalised religion. In other words what goes on in your head and the purity of your intentions are what matter; it aint what you do, it's why you do it.
Islam on the other hand does still seek to impose it's rules on everyone within it's sphere, even if they abide by the rules only in body and not in spirit (i.e. if you fast and pray etc at the right times you will go to paradise even if you fantasize about murder every day) and so Islam can be said to be an externalised religion. 
Because of this Islam, in it's still very fundamentalist form(when compared to modern Christianity), is not compatible with the society in which we live and sees the liberties and personal freedoms that we enjoy as undesirable and immoral.
Fundamentalist Christianity, if it was distilled to the same extreme  extent, is just as dangerous.
The issue here is peoples fear of the loss of liberty and freedom which goes with any form  of totalitarian or fundamentalist system.


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## XXXAnother PersonXXX (11 Aug 2004)

*!*



> Dangerous drivers being arrested without trial and taken to Gantanamo for a bit of torture lite. Less dangerous but nonetheless careless drivers being dragged from their cars, stripped and then urinated on



We're not too far away from this already, what with the penalty points etc.


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## ElCid (11 Aug 2004)

*Islam*

Its too serious an issue for jokes old boy.

Purple - made some excellent points there. Well said.

I was very interested to read in the Sunday Times that Salman Rushdie has a new treatise in print in which he equates the legality of pornography as a measure of freedom in a society.
Although it might be a controversial angle to take, one has to say he's right...in that fundamentalists of all stripes cannot abide it...and we've only just loosened up a little here lately.


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## piggy (11 Aug 2004)

*Re: Islamophobia*

"Islam is not your enemy...you are". It's quite simple. Your fear is your undoing. Fear of other cultures and religions that are different to yours or what you understand. Fear and the idea that all Muslims are inherently 'scum' of some sort. That's usually where all hatred in society comes from - fear.

*I'm not the only individual in the whole wide western world pointing out the threat frrom Islam*

Really?? Hmmm...

*I never made any secret of my views on multiculturalism*
Is that why you continuously refused to answer my direct question concerning who the "extremist leaders" were you referred to? 

*I contributed to a whole thread on the subject (which you lost as I recall).* 

Eh? The thread is now locked as I recall. How exactly is it that you think you...won!!? I disagree with your point of view. As did another poster in the thread. Do you believe that your view somehow _*wins*_ over other peoples?

*You didn't adress the quotes from the Muslims interviewed on that program.* 
That's because I didn't see it :\    It's equally conceivable that many young Muslims in the UK are holding feelings of deep resentment over how they are being portrayed and treated in the media and by people like you. Thus they lash out as a lot of confused youngsters do. 

Like I said. Unless we stop demonising Muslims in western culture we will undoubtedly reap what we (some) fear.


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## Socrates (11 Aug 2004)

*Freedom is good up to a point*

Salman Rusdhie 





> equates the legality of pornography as a measure of freedom in a society


That is actually a truism.  The availability of euthanasia, drugs, even guns are even further measures of freedom.  Pornography is now freely accepted here in the West, thankfully with the exception of paedophilia.  Thailand has no such inhibitions.  Is Thailand freeer than the West?  In this sphere, certainly yes.

What is insidious about the Rushdie vacuous truism is that it suggests that this (more freedom) is a good thing.

That is clearly not necessarily so - why else do we have laws?  Ask women whether they think the gratuitous pornography in Western society is a desirable freedom.

Reverting to topic, this attitude to women and availability of pornography is perhaps the most obvious distinction in practice between Western culture and Islamic culture.  I for one am not convinced that the former is superior, at least on this count.


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## piggy (11 Aug 2004)

*Re: The real debate?*

*How can you not agree with that Piggy? 
This is a real debate and while we should be very careful not to be racist of xenophobic and make comments like "Go to any mosque in a western country - they are the guys in nightdresses with the long beards" as they undermine any argument that one makes.*

Exactly. As long as there are blatantly Islamophobic comments made by Tizona there can be no reasonable or logical debate on the subject. They are comments of hate. Pure and simple. And I don't think his view on the subject will be in any way softened by your logical and reasoned approach to the subject anyway.

*We should equally not brand everyone who questions the wisdom of allowing a culture that is totally alien to secular democratic values to take a foot-hold in the secular democratic west as a racist.*
Re my first post in reply to Tizona...when people answer questions like he did of shnaek's then there is only one word for it. Perhaps racist isn't the correct term. Islamophobe certainly fits the bill. Equally the same with the Koran quotations. I find it very difficult to take that kind of rubbish seriously to be honest.

*Islam seeks to create a society or state on earth that is totally bound up in the writings of the Koran, as does Christianity*
You're discounting the secular but predominantly Muslim countries.
Muslims have been living in western countries for a long long time. All of a sudden (after the announcement of the War on Terror) we're talking about Muslims taking over the world. You'll have to excuse me if I believe it stinks of something similar to McCarthyism(sp?). 

*The issue here is peoples fear of the loss of liberty and freedom which goes with any form of totalitarian or fundamentalist system.* 
Why is this the issue? Do you fear that Muslims coming into Ireland are going to take it over and turn it into an Islamic state? Do you fear that Islam is trying to do this in Europe in general? I don't think that's what you're saying but I'm not sure I understand how we can equate any of this to the idea of loss of liberty or freedom.


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## Johnny Wishbone (11 Aug 2004)

*Re: The real debate?*

Go back to Europe 900 hundred years ago and the Crusades. Practically all of Western Europe joined forces to destroy the Muslim world in the name of Christanity. What was seen by all at the time as a worthy and just war (of which there were many) was in fact nothing but total genocide. It is interesting now to read the history of the Crusades as written by impartial (hopefully) historians, and the account of the Crusades as documented by the likes of the New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia for example. Much more recently, the United States felt justified to drop two atomic bombs on Japan killing approximately 200,000 civilians, something that the US (to the best of my knowledge) has never apologised for. I don't think any normal individual with even an ounce of gumption could justify something so horrendous - equally, I cannot see how anyone can defend the acts of 9/11. 

Apart from a minority group of narrow minded individuals, some of which who are posting on this thread unfortunately, the majority of people realise that the type of radical fundamentalist that we have today do not see themselves as "crazed animals", rather they see themselves as freedom figthers, fighting in the name of God - their God, whom they believe in. My sentiments here are not anti-US or anti-Islam, what I'm trying to say is that Western society has come a long way even in the past one hundred years, and I don't mean in technological advances. Education of the masses has ensured that the majority of us have learned from the past lessons of mankind and in my opinion, education is the key to ensuring that A. - WE begin to understand WHY fundamentalists, terrorists, whatever, believe in what they see to be righteous, and B. - they too become schooled to the same level as the rest of the world and realise that the time for achieving any means through violent action has long since passed. Don't forget, we were still burning people at the stake (a fate worse than beheading I'd imagine) in Europe and America less than 250 years ago. Couple this in turn with the fact that technology (specifically military technology) has been introduced far faster to these areas than proper education structures have and you have a recipe for disaster. Instead of an uneducated medieval people with radical views and opinions (Western society a few hundred years ago) fighting for their cause, beliefs, and in the name of God with medieval weapons, we have the same scenario, except the they are now using modern military hardware with the ability to cause destruction on a massive scale.

Regarding the excerpts from the Koran El Cid, I'm assuming you have never read The Bible.


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## shnaek (11 Aug 2004)

*Re: The real debate?*

Good points well made. Education and understanding are the key.


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## purple (12 Aug 2004)

*Education?*



> A. - WE begin to understand WHY fundamentalists, terrorists, whatever, believe in what they see to be righteous, and B. - they too become schooled to the same level as the rest of the world and realise that the time for achieving any means through violent action has long since passed


Just think about that for a moment, it's about the most condescending thing I have heard in ages. The basic gist of what you are saying is "If only we could shine the light of our superior culture on the faces of these poor creatures they will run to us with arms open and thank us for giving them the gift of our superior ways".
Muslims are just as smart and advanced as Christians. Their opinions and beliefs are developed and informed. For most of the last 1000 years they have been far ahead of us both technologically and socially. The problem is that they, and by that I mean non-secular Muslims, look at the post Christian west and they don't like it and want to change it to suit their beliefs. 

That's all there is to it. 
Christian missionaries did the same all over the world.

As for quoting the Koran; the Bible(First book) is just as full of that sort of crap, the Christian churches just choose to ignore it as it must be taken in the context of a nomadic iron age people.


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## Seamus (12 Aug 2004)

*Muslims*

I am surprised there are so many do-gooders / lovers of Islam here in this discussion.   Have any of them ever even been to a Muslim country?  I fear very few.

We tolerate Muslims here in the west far more than we ( Christian westerners ) are tolerated in most muslim countries.   For example, it is forbidden to build or open a Christian church in all of Saudi Arabia, which is a hugh country, which is why there are none there.  What about the role of women in most of these countries ? 
Are there any women driving around, never mind any pubs etc?

Many millions of Muslims have migrated in to the eu in the last few decades.   If they do not like our ways, why do they come here and establish their own ways ?

I have muslim friends, but I fear 9/11 was just a wake up call.


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## Johnny Wishbone (12 Aug 2004)

*Re: Education?*

I think you may have misunderstood what I was getting at there Purple.



> they too become schooled to the same level as the rest of the world and realise that the time for achieving any means through violent action has long since passed



Apologies if it came across condescending, it wasn't meant to be......

By education I did not mean that we should inflict the ways of our culture on ANYONE and I certainly did not mean that Muslims or any other race, creed, religious group etc are any less educated than us 'Westerners'; what I WAS getting at was that the majority of people in the West have been educated by the "past lessons of mankind ". History is a cruel teacher, it gives us the test first, and the lesson afterwards. These lessons have been more effective in teaching the masses in the West only because media and freedom of information is more prevelant. Similarly, as we have all seen happen, the massive media coverage and audience can be hugely effective in spreading poor opinion, fear, hatred, and downright ignorance, to the detriment of humanity. 

The only reason why we do not have religious fundamentalism to the same scale as they have in some Muslim countries is because not only have we seen the result of such actions in the past and the devastation and destruction it needlessly causes, we also have learnt to a certain extent not to take teachings from our Christian God too literally. If we were to follow EVERY teaching in the Bible for instance we Christians would have probably wiped out half of the planet!


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## YD (12 Aug 2004)

*Bush is WINNING the WOT*

I know there are many in this AAM community who will hate to think that.  They will cite the Bali bomb, greatly enhanced terrorist activity in the likes of Saudi, Turkey, Pakistan and indeed Iraq.

But, as we are frequently reminded, Bush doesn't give a damn about these looney tunes.  Think of the US itself.  Isn't it amazing that in a whole three years since 9/11 there has been no significant terrorist attack there.  Think of all that muslim hate against America,  think of the many many targets - skyscrapers, undergrounds, nuclear power stations.

They would love to repeat 9/11 but they just can't - Bush is winning - the cost of that win is to force these islamic fanatics to take it out in their own countries (albeit against Weestern interests) but that is just cutting off their noses, but then with the suicide bomber now being their mascot, cutting off their noses is part of their psyche.


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## piggy (12 Aug 2004)

*Re: Bush is WINNING the WOT*

This post was supposed to be about how America was really (or not) prepared for a terrorist attack. I fear it would be in vain to even try to go there now...

*Think of the US itself. Isn't it amazing that in a whole three years since 9/11 there has been no significant terrorist attack there. Think of all that muslim hate against America, think of the many many targets - skyscrapers, undergrounds, nuclear power stations.*

Remember, the point of terrorism isn't just to blow people and buildings up. It's about FEAR too. There's plenty of that in the States right now.
Then there's the soaring oil prices.
Also bear in mind that an attack like 911 probably took about 10 years or so to plan. 3 years is not a long time.

*the cost of that win is to force these islamic fanatics to take it out in their own countries (albeit against Weestern interests) but that is just cutting off their noses*
I'm not sure you're understanding their interests in the Middle East that well if you believe the fanatics are cutting off their own noses. They're not.


----------



## mohammed (12 Aug 2004)

*islam*

We turn our smiling face to you while we are weak, but when we are strong you will all have a choice, convert to Islam or die.
The Quran says to go to your heathen neighbours and offer them this choice, convert or die.
The only exception ins "the people of the book" , the jews and the christians, they do not have to convert but must live under Islamic law.

Remember when we get the atomic bombs, we can all go to heaven in huge numbers.(and take you infidels with us) but not to heaven.

except for piggy as we don't like pork

bigM


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## YD (12 Aug 2004)

*piggy reveals his true colours*

Surprised at you piggy.  You seem positively disappointed that 9/11 has not yet been repeated - though appear to take some perverse comfort that these things are 10 years in the making - still hope yet for you. 

Meanwhile you try to convince yourself that Americans are cowering in fear.

You get further consolation that oil prices have soared.  This one carries some contradiction of earlier espoused piggy conspiracies.  I thought the whole WOT/Iraq thing was just a ruse to control oil prices - so it seems Bush has singularly miscalculated in his grand design.

On a separate point - I really do think those quotes from the Koran are horrific - surely anyone who publishes or distributes that material is breaking any incitement to hatred laws that might exist.


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## piggy (12 Aug 2004)

*Re: piggy reveals his true colours*

*Surprised at you piggy. You seem positively disappointed that 9/11 has not yet been repeated - though appear to take some perverse comfort that these things are 10 years in the making - still hope yet for you.* 

*No. I'm not disapointed.* Where did I state that?
It's fact (if you watch the news) that intelligence suggests that they need many years to plan these attacks. I do not support violence of any sort, in any way shape or form.

*Meanwhile you try to convince yourself that Americans are cowering in fear.

You get further consolation that oil prices have soared*
I'm not trying to convince myself of anything :rolleyes 
I'm merely stating a well known fact that terrorism is about striking fear in your enemy. Thus the IRA planted bombs and then tip the police off. Even if the bomb never went off they achieved their objective.
I get no consolation that oil prices have risen. Where did I say that? 

Either you're not reading my posts or your just taking what you want to from it.


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## Zeus (12 Aug 2004)

*Cultural differences?*

Piggy, you say " It's quite simple. Your fear is your undoing. Fear of other cultures and religions that are different to yours or what you understand."

What exactly is it that some don't understand about honour killings, polygamy, female circumcision and stoning people(women) to death for adultery? Do you find these practices repugnant or merely cultural differences we in the unsophisticated West can't appreciate? 

As you formulate your response, keep in mind your prior comment of 11/8/04 where you decried a lack of directness in another poster's response to you.


----------



## purple (12 Aug 2004)

*Re.Re: piggy reveals his true colours*

YD is trolling you piggy, don't respond.

YD, why do you try and pull every thread on anything to do with this topic down to the level of a personalised slagging match?
Do you like having threads closed?

If you disagree with part or all of what people are saying then attack the issues, not the person. I hope we are all grown up's here, lets try and act like it.


----------



## piggy (12 Aug 2004)

*Re: Cultural differences?*

I think you're right purple re YD. 

*What exactly is it that some don't understand about honour killings, polygamy, female circumcision and stoning people(women) to death for adultery? Do you find these practices repugnant or merely cultural differences we in the unsophisticated West can't appreciate?* 
Do you really believe that I or anyone for that matter would not find any of the above repugnant? So, you equate these failings of culture with an entire swathe of people. Do you believe Muslims living in Ireland would stone each other to death? Yes...there has been isolated incidents of this sort in Britain. But I don't believe that you can justifiably tar all Muslims with the sme brush. There are atrocious things going on all over the world in case you hadn't noticed. Many of these atrocities are even being carried out by non-Muslims! Imagine that!

What are your own views on the subject anyway? Or are you waiting until you have another question _just for me_ to open a new topic?


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## Zeus (12 Aug 2004)

*Ammonium Nitrate*

As for Amonium Nitrate being available in the US, did you know it's available here in Europe and a derivative can be found right here in Ireland?

"Ammonium nitrate fertilizer is used in 12 WesternEuropean countries. Ireland has banned the sale of ammonium nitrate fertilizer. The substitute fertilizer product used in Ireland has been altered to make terrorist devices by individuals with malicious, criminal intent."

[broken link removed]


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## piggy (12 Aug 2004)

*Re: Ammonium Nitrate*

*As for Amonium Nitrate being available in the US, did you know it's available here in Europe and a derivative can be found right here in Ireland?*

Indeed, but then who has more to fear from ammonium nitrate. Ireland or the US?

My original post was trying to deal specifically (what hope!) with the cynicism that surrounds the terror alert system and the possibility that it's being politically abused at present. This becomes more pertinent when you look at certain facts such as the availability (without any identification) of AN in the US.


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## Zeus (12 Aug 2004)

*Islamic culture*

Sorry, Piggy, but I'm NOT YD or anyone else.  I NEVER post under any other name when on this thread  but like you, I may OCCASIONALLY use another name when asking a financial question etc. but that's it. Clear on this?

I find these practices repugnant but unlike you, I'm not so sure that some of these practices which HAVE occured slightly west of Dublin won't be coming here in the future.  When the government recently felt compelled to ask potential polygamists to refrain from multiple marriages if granted residency here in Ireland, was it acting irrationally?  Was it tarring all Muslims with the same brush?


----------



## piggy (12 Aug 2004)

*Re: Islamic culture*

*Sorry, Piggy, but I'm NOT YD or anyone else. I NEVER post under any other name when on this thread but like you, I may OCCASIONALLY use another name when asking a financial question etc. but that's it. Clear on this?*

I wasn't suggesting that you do post under different names. I was replying to purple's comments before moving onto your post.

I do however always wonder why people post entire *topics* just on me though. Just to ask _me_ a specific question. This is a pretty big message board and lots of people have opinions on various issues. I saw the topic that you posted before it was taken off the air.

*When the government recently felt compelled to ask potential polygamists to refrain from multiple marriages if granted residency here in Ireland, was it acting irrationally? Was it tarring all Muslims with the same brush?* 
I can't imagine that it was really.


----------



## Zeus (12 Aug 2004)

*Politicising terror?*

I just bought some potato fertiliser for my garden at a co-op last month and wasn't asked for any ID.  I could also probably fill up many large tanks of petrol at my local Stat Oil and pay the girl obsessed with texting without raising any suspicions as well.  But this is really not an issue, right?

With regard to more large scale terrorism, the Minister of Iodine tablets has us all protected from Sellafield so I'm not really worrying.  Was he playing the buffoon card?


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## Zeus (12 Aug 2004)

*Topic*

Sorry about that, hit the wrong button and realised it too late.  Didn't mean to start a new topic.


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## piggy (12 Aug 2004)

*Re: Politicising terror?*

*I just bought some potato fertiliser for my garden at a co-op last month and wasn't asked for any ID. I could also probably fill up many large tanks of petrol at my local Stat Oil and pay the girl obsessed with texting without raising any suspicions as well. But this is really not an issue, right?*

Well...re my last point on this subject above...it might be if you were living in a country who was waging war on a faction of Islamic terrorists and had a terror alert system to tell your people when they should be at their most alert for a terrorist attack. 
But then you live in Ireland and thankfully the days of terrorism are (hopefully) over.


----------



## piggy (12 Aug 2004)

*Re: Topic*

*Sorry about that, hit the wrong button and realised it too late. Didn't mean to start a new topic.* 

Fair enough. I got the wrong impression. Thanks.


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## YD (12 Aug 2004)

*Very confused*

A lot has happened since I went for lunch!

I am not Zeus!!!

Purple's reaction that I was trolling piggy, and his/her sanctimonious lecture about attacking the topic not the person was so entirely predictable.  Call it trolling, call it attacking the person - I genuinely did sense in piggy's post that he is disappointed at the success that the US has achieved in defending its own citizens against further outrages.  I do not apologise for making the observation.  I note that his denials are more in the nature of defending counsel than from the heart.

A couple of days ago I opened a topic asking piggy and his fellow travellers a question.  I thought piggy was alluding to that but then Zeus steps in and says he posted a topic devoted to piggy by accident - this does have me very confused. :eek 

I was surprised that topic was aborted - here is the question:

Iraq is a mess, point conceded, but we are where we are - who do you want to gain control in Iraq from here?

1.  Sunni insurgents
2.  Shia insurgents
3.  The current administration

As to piggy-fixation, I think piggy's feigned disbelief is a bit disingenuous.  Piggy, you have become a figurehaed of the particular WorldView you espouse - all the others are only fellow travellers - and you know it.


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## piggy (12 Aug 2004)

*Re: Very confused*

*I note that his denials are more in the nature of defending counsel than from the heart*

That's your opinion. I don't need to justify how I feel about it. I've stated many times that I believe the whole War on Terror and how the US has handled everything since 911 has brought this mess on themselves. However, that doesn't mean to say I take any glee in seeing it happen. You can believe that if you like or not. I can't make you.

*I was surprised that topic was aborted - here is the question:*
I saw that topic too. 
You were surprised that the mods deleted a topic that asked me specifically a political question?

*who do you want to gain control in Iraq from here?*
I think this is a bit simplistic. No one has control right now. The current administration is recognised as having control by the international community. If you're talking about security then that's a different matter. Regardless...no one knows what the future is going to hold and what state that country will be in in years to come.
What's the deal with all these here's your choices type questions anyway?

*As to piggy-fixation, I think piggy's feigned disbelief is a bit disingenuous. Piggy, you have become a figurehaed of the particular WorldView you espouse - all the others are only fellow travellers - and you know it.*
Not by choice. That _honour_ has been largely thrust upon me by people directing everything at me instead of discussing various points of view.


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## Johnny Wishbone (12 Aug 2004)

*Re: Very confused*

- "...I was trolling *piggy*..."
- "...in *piggy's* post..."
- "...asking *piggy* and ..."
- "...I thought *piggy* was alluding..."
- "...devoted to *piggy* by accident..."
- "...As to *piggy*-fixation..."
- "...think *piggy's* feigned..."
- "*Piggy*, you have become a..."

YD !!! - "piggy-fixation".... you!? Never! :b


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## YD (12 Aug 2004)

*piggy,piggy,piggy,piggy,piggy,piggy,piggy,piggy,piggy*

Why do I ask piggy multiple choice questions?

To try and pin him down!

Simple 3 choice question - everyone knows the right answer, the only answer - the community of nations including many muslim ones want the current administration to resist the insurgent forces.

Piggy wriggles from giving a straight answer  That tells it all.


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## piggy (12 Aug 2004)

*Re: piggy,piggy,piggy,piggy,piggy,piggy,piggy,piggy,piggy*

*Why do I ask piggy multiple choice questions?

To try and pin him down!*

Indeed. That says a lot.

*Piggy wriggles from giving a straight answer That tells it all.* 
What part of my answer wasn't clear? I think the question is very simplistic and not very clear to be honest. The current administration already _*has*_ control in Iraq. Why do you need to ask me this?
The security of the country is an entirely separate issue and I don't think anyone can rightly say what direction that is going to take. Needless to say it'll take a long time and will probably not be done by force alone.  
I'm becoming very tired of this nonsense to be honest. You believe somehow that I don't want peace in Iraq. Like I said, I can't convince you of anything but I'm sure you'll keep asking me these type of simplistic questions to try to catch me out.


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## Johnny Wishbone (12 Aug 2004)

*Re: piggy,piggy,piggy,piggy,piggy,piggy,piggy,piggy,piggy*

All this talk of Piggy is making me hungry - I'd kill for a rasher sandwich!

Can we just get back to the point gents & ladies.

I'd like to see some opinions on YD's earlier post...


> Iraq is a mess, point conceded, but we are where we are - who do you want to gain control in Iraq from here?


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## shnaek (12 Aug 2004)

*Re:*

The US, and to a greater extent the rest of the world is ruled by a culture of fear. What of 'tolerance' in a fearless society? Would there be more or less? For most of humanities existence on the planet we have lived under rule of fear. We still do.


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## piggy (12 Aug 2004)

*Re: piggy,piggy,piggy,piggy,piggy,piggy,piggy,piggy,piggy*

*All this talk of Piggy is making me hungry - I'd kill for a rasher sandwich!*

Strangely enough. Now that you've mentioned it so would I!


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## piggy (13 Aug 2004)

*Re: piggy,piggy,piggy,piggy,piggy,piggy,piggy,piggy,piggy*

BTW YD,

I've been thinking of the best way to answer your question which would best sum up my views.
I suppose if I'm being tied to a chair on this one and have to answer A, B or C then the answer is C. I don't want to see any insurgents winning. Neither do I want to see the administration that has been put in place failing either (as that would suggest the former options being somehow victorious).
However, in an ideal world, I'd rather see a fourth power in there. But the whole place is such a mess right now that to be honest I have no idea what is going to happen anymore.

Actually I'm not sure there _can_ be any winners here. Only layers of losing.

Anyway...I think Iraq is a subject this board has already tortured to death at this stage and we should try to keep this post to terror and (if people want) discussing Islamic behaviour in relation to terrorism etc etc...


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## YD (13 Aug 2004)

*The Koran*

Fair enough my porky friend.

I have been thinking about this Koran thing.  How do they get away with it (maybe the Bible is similarly inciteful to hatred)?  

I guess it must be argued that it is not published with an intent to incitement to hatred, or that people don't really take those bits seriously any more - unlike say a neo-nazi pamphlet which means every bit of what its publishers believe. 

All the same, pretty blood curdling stuff.

The psychology of terror is interesting.  In 30 years of "war"  3,000 people were killed in the six counties but in that same period 10,000 died on the road.  I recall real fear about going downtown Belfast but not because of the more dangerous car journey but out of fear of some lunatic loyalist bursting in and spraying all round him.


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## purple (13 Aug 2004)

*all's well...*

Ahhhh....that's nice; we'er all friends again!


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## YD (13 Aug 2004)

*Tut, tut, purple, attacking the persons*


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## piggy (13 Aug 2004)

*Re:*

*The US, and to a greater extent the rest of the world is ruled by a culture of fear*

Amidst all the wrangling yesterday that was an interesting post shnaek.

Mankind is always looking forwards to his doom. Potential threats, be it from natural disasters or other humans.

*What of 'tolerance' in a fearless society?*

This is what I _fear_ the most in all of this...the _lack_ of tolerance. The rise in Islamophobia. This is where the media really need to step in and exercise some responsible journalism in my opinion...or else we'll have a much worse situation in 5-10 years time where Muslims feel threatened by the rise in ill feeling towards them due to the actions of a few.


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## l (17 Aug 2004)

*war on terror*

What of 'tolerance' in a fearless society?

Which is more tolerant : the u.s. or the typical islamic society?    No contest.    A country like Saudi Arabia ( which is not the most militant anti-US  islamic country ) does not even allow a Christian Church anywhere within its borders.   Look at how islamic countries treats its criminal, its foes, its citizens, its minorities.


All this talk by piggy of  "Islamophobia"  ( her word, not mine ) is a bit sickening.   I think Piggy is tramping on the memories of those killed in 9/11. After the next big atrocity by Islamic terrorists, she will be the one saying why were there not more checks, why was security so lax , why did the authorities not know what was going on etc etc.


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## mohammed (17 Aug 2004)

*as i said already - infidels*

We turn our smiling face to you while we are weak, but when we are strong you will all have a choice, convert to Islam or die.
The Quran says to go to your heathen neighbours and offer them this choice, convert or die.
The only exception ins "the people of the book" , the jews and the christians, they do not have to convert but must live under Islamic law.

Remember when we get the atomic bombs, we can all go to heaven in huge numbers.(and take you infidels with us) but not to heaven.

except for piggy as we don't like pork

bigM


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## YD (17 Aug 2004)

*I'm all for tolerance but...*

We gotta be real.

America is the unquestioned only superpower in the world - capable of wreaking total devastation on any or all countries of its chosing.  Bush is the most powerful man in the world.  In the circumstances the level of foreign intervention is minimal and to many, even non americans, justifiable.

Just imagine for one minute that Iran was the only superpower in the world and had the means of global obliteration and whatever mad mullah is currently in charge there was the most powerful man on earth.

How would they interpret these gifts from Allah?  Where would they even begin?  Nuke New York for starters - all that money trading and lack of female modesty, blatant affront of the Koran.  Oh and where is Rushdie hiding, probably somewhere in infidel England - nuke the whole British Isles - that will take care of that unfinished fatwah etc. etc.


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## piggy (17 Aug 2004)

*Re: I'm all for tolerance but...*

YD I don't really want to get back into this debate (especially since the loonies are back) but the tolerance I'm talking about refers to tolerance and understanding of Muslims in our everyday life.
The vast majority of Muslims living in Ireland are much like you and me. They may have different religious beliefs/culture and dress differently but I'll bet they're good people. I'm sure there's a few bad apples in there too, as there are everywhere. The tolerance has to start here (in Ireland)...otherwise we'll just breed hatred, the likes of which we've already seen in this thread -  evidence of a lot of misguided and rather scary feelings towards fellow human beings in this country.


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## piggy2 (17 Aug 2004)

*don't call me a looney u moron*

Just cause i'm illiterate, live in a cave, talk to God and my rambling nonsense is in the Quran.

Piggy, you need to read, travel and get out a bit. 

The world is stuck between a right wing, know it all, imperialistic US and a religon that is hundreds of years out of date and your naive insulting attitude helps no one and helps Bush and Iran.

At Least Bin Ladin is honest in his stated desires, its the smiling face of Islam that is the danger.

Islam + Atomic weapons and their fanaticism is the danger.
This is not the simplistic hi jacking of the 70's which was done to help the Palestine cause but thus is more far reaching and for the future much more dangerous.


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## shnaek (17 Aug 2004)

*Re: don't call me a looney u moron*

That is not even a well thought out valid point. Piggy is right- tolerance has to start here in Ireland. How many local muslims do you know, piggy2? If the answer is none then you owe it to yourself and to humanity to go out and meet one before you tar them all with the same brush. 

By the way - you sound a bit fanatical yourself. What would you do with 'The Bomb'?


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## NotPiggy (17 Aug 2004)

*"At Least Bin Ladin is honest in his stated desires&quo*

Piggy2,

Please lead me to where I can see what they are.


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## piggy2 (17 Aug 2004)

*In the Name of Allah, the Most Merciful, the Most Compassion*

Muslims are also bound for one Umma/nation/Khilafah/Caliphate 

Bin Laden want to restore the islamic empire of the caliph.

which include some of europe


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## piggy2 (17 Aug 2004)

*i know lots of moslems*

Some of these fled from Iran but these are the minority and hate the Islamic regimes.
But generally moslems are not loyal to the countries that adopt them and nurture them, see England,for example, and the same will happen in Ireland.

At least the immigrants that went to the US from Europe, etc wewre lyal to their adopted country.
Even the Japanese in the US (who were treated very badly by the Americans by putting them in camps) came out as loyal to their adopted country.

England and the rest should round up these fanatics and drop them on some beach in Iran.

They use our democracy and sneer at out weakness.


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## YD (17 Aug 2004)

*Honeyed words*

Tolerance, Freedom, Peace - how can there be too much of these wonderful things?

2 much Tolerance:  tolerance of orange marches, tolerance of Islamic customs (polygamy etc.), tolerance of some of the grossly anti social behaviour of the travelling community, tolerance of begging immigrants

2 much Freedom: Abortion, Euthanasia, Drugs, access to Guns, smoking in pubs

2 much Peace:  peace at any price ala Good Friday surrender, Peace in our time ala Neville Chamberlain, peace in the Middle East by caving into Arab demands

What rambling point am I making?  
Piggy and his fellow travellers are wont to use these concepts as if invoking them is an automatic endorsement of whatever particular point they making at the time - this does not necessarily follow.


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## piggy (18 Aug 2004)

*Re: Honeyed words*

*Piggy and his fellow travellers are wont to use these concepts as if invoking them is an automatic endorsement of whatever particular point they making at the time - this does not necessarily follow.*

I see. So you think then that my point about treating Muslims in Ireland with respect and not tarring them all with the same brush doesn't make sense?

Or do you believe the guy above you and the general hatred being bred against all Muslims in this thread?

The point I'm making is pretty clear to be honest YD. Why am I not surprised you're missing it!?! I'm not talking about *too much* of this, that or the other. I'm talking about basic respect for people when they haven't done anything wrong. If you can't see that all the anti-Muslim crap in this thread sounds a lot like (dare I say it) the anti-semetic rubbish that some nameless countries have adopted in the not so distant past to demonise Jewish people as evil, then this particular debate goes nowhere from here for me. I can't be bothered trying to debate with the guy who hates Muslims anymore. He's got his own problems.


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## waitAminute (18 Aug 2004)

*that it piggy*

they are all wrong except you


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## alltogethernow (18 Aug 2004)

*What name shall I pick next...?*

" they are all wrong except you "

You mean "he"...i pray to the lord This post will be deleted if not edited immediately there are not this many losers in the world


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## Tizona (18 Aug 2004)

*All of the above.*

well I've been away and now that I'm back for a brief look I'm amazed to see some kind of enlightenment has occurred here. 

It appears I am no longer the voice crying in the wilderness. Someone else has a handle on the muslim thing.

Where were you this last 6 months Piggy2, while I was here alone battling the Infidels! 
Were you hiding your light under a bushel? 

Welcome aboard. You're doing a good job. 
Keep on truckin'.


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## purple (18 Aug 2004)

*a catch 22?*



> England and the rest should round up these fanatics and drop them on some beach in Iran.


That’s not a very constructive comment really is it? How do you define what a fanatic is and who then decides  whom amongst the population falls within that definition? The laws and invasion of privacy required to do that would do more to take away the freedoms and values that we hold dear than any bomb or terrorist attack.
If we go down that path then Bin Laden and his ilk have won.   



> We gotta be real.
> 
> America is the unquestioned only superpower in the world - capable of wreaking total devastation on any or all countries of its chosing. Bush is the most powerful man in the world


Tht' a good point, the US lives in the real world, we don't.
They also stand for freedom and justice and if they throw away the rule book we are all lost. I don’t think anyone here would say that America is as bad as any of the Arab governments in the middle east. The fact is that they set the bar much higher for themselves than any of their enemies, people are just concerned that they live up to those standards. 



> Piggy and his fellow travellers are wont to use these concepts as if invoking them is an automatic endorsement of whatever particular point they making at the time - this does not necessarily follow



Taking the personalised element out of that comment it is really a good point as well, in the context of how both sides present their respective arguments here. 
Both the pro and anti Muslim camps( a bad generalisation I know, but it’s late) are warning of the dangers posed to western standards of freedom and universal justice by the ideas, ideals and policies proposed by the other camp. 
One side says that if you do not apply the principals of tolerance and the presumption of innosence to all then those principals are meaningless.
The other says that if you apply those principals to all then your enemies will see them as a weakness and use them against you.

The problem as I see it is that both sides are right.
Like most things in life; if there was an easy fix it would be fixed.


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## cerberus (18 Aug 2004)

*Re: a catch 22?*

Very good summation Purple. 
The problem with some individuals on this board is there point of view is the ONLY correct one and they refuse to even listen to others an then get personal.

Everyone's point of view should count, far right, far left and the most in the middle. 
I use the far right/left to indicated polarised views in any topic.

0]


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## piggy (18 Aug 2004)

*Re: a catch 22?*

On the subject of Muslims and whether we should fear and demonise them all you'll have to forgive me if I don't think it's  a far right/ far left argument. I'm not coming from any far left viewpoint...unless *not* judging billions of people by the actions of a few is judged as being far left.


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## YD (18 Aug 2004)

*From the sublime to the ridiculous*

This is all getting a bit cerebral for me.  I'm just a humble guy who relies on common sense.

Other things being equal if I was asked to chose between a Muslim, a fundamentalist Christian, an Atheist or a "slightly agnostic was brought up Christian"  (that's me) for President, I would always go for the last.  I just don't trust the inherent irrational fanaticism of the others.  

Yes that is prejudice - a much maligned word - often we do not have sufficient knowledge of a person to "post judge" them and so we are forced to "pre judge" them based on the actions of others who profess similar beliefs.


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## piggy (18 Aug 2004)

*Re: From the sublime to the ridiculous*

*Other things being equal if I was asked to chose between a Muslim, a fundamentalist Christian, an Atheist or a "slightly agnostic was brought up Christian" (that's me) for President, I would always go for the last. I just don't trust the inherent irrational fanaticism of the others*

Why do you have to choose one of them?

*often we do not have sufficient knowledge of a person to "post judge" them and so we are forced to "pre judge" them based on the actions of others who profess similar beliefs.* 
I suppose then it'd be quite justified for the British to think of all Irishmen as murderers because of the actions of the IRA. After all they were all over the news for so many years. So if the news is showing us all these Irishmen who kill people in the name of freedom then all Irishmen must be the same. Common sense eh!!!?


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## mohammed (18 Aug 2004)

*the IRA is not = fundamental ISlam*

I hate the IRA because of their callous campaign and thier sickening attempt top justify it but Inever feared that they would let off an atomic or BIO weapon so they could go as martyrs, taking millions of us with them.

This is not a war against Islam or Muslims but against fundamentalists who because of ignorance are blindly supported by a huge number of muslims.

The IRA or ETA, black panthers,Red Faction or whatever were just a minority among their people hence not much support.

The problem with the moslems, you can take them in and give them a home, but if called by some lunatic in the middle east, these same moslems and their Irish sons and daughters will fly out and kill Irish Peace Keeping Troops and rejoice in it. See England
Or set off bombs in Irish public transport - see Spain.
Or slaughter people in work - see 9/11

And all for nothing, a group no matter how large and fanatical will not bring down a county.

They can bomb London or New York and these countries will survive and go on.

But the threat must be dealt with and people are kidding themselves otherwise.

The smiling face is turned now while they are weak but if they were strong, things would be different.

Read my book and see the word.

the big M


----------



## purple (18 Aug 2004)

*Re: From the sublime to the ridiculous*



> Other things being equal if I was asked to chose between a Muslim, a fundamentalist Christian, an Atheist or a "slightly agnostic was brought up Christian" (that's me) for President, I would always go for the last. I just don't trust the inherent irrational fanaticism of the others
> 
> Why do you have to choose one of them?



You don’t have to choose one of them Piggy, that’s not what he is saying. I think you are avoiding the issue here to be honest. He says “Other things being equal if I was asked to chose between”, not “the only choices are…” so why do you ask the question? It is a valid point. The essence of democracy is that everyone within the country or organisation that is voting has enough in common with, and enough trust in, the other voters to accept the rules and laws that will be imposed by any majority that does not represent their views. For example I do not agree with the policies of the Labour party but I know that they believe in the same range of fundamental rights that I do and will respect and work within the system that now exists.
I cannot say the same for Islamic or Christian fundamentalist or totalitarian groups. 



> often we do not have sufficient knowledge of a person to "post judge" them and so we are forced to "pre judge" them based on the actions of others who profess similar beliefs.
> I suppose then it'd be quite justified for the British to think of all Irishmen as murderers because of the actions of the IRA.


Again Piggy, that is not what  YD is saying. I am not saying I agree with him/her in everything he/she had said but these are points that deserve a reasoned and rational response and you do yourself and the stance you are taking no favours when you deflect issues like this.
Having said that you avoid the issue less than most here.


----------



## YD (18 Aug 2004)

*Taking the tablets*

Utter confusion reigns.  Purple is being nice to me and cutting off that piggy's tail.  

Piggy,  Brits, even the well meaning ones, do generally have an ingrained prejudice that Irish people are less than respectful of law and order, shall we say.

Can you blame them when so recently violence has been the main instrument of politics on this island.  It does not mean they think we are all murderers - but they suspect there is something in the Irish psyche which is at best ambivalent to  political violence - are they entirely wrong?

Similarly, I do not for one moment suspect that anything but a very small minority of muslims are suicide terrorists, but even the existence of a few does tarnish the whole culture.

In fact the suicide terrorist is almost unique to muslim culture (Japanese kamikaze being the only other sighting).  What sort of fanaticism givs rise to that?


----------



## piggy (18 Aug 2004)

*Re: From the sublime to the ridiculous*

*You don’t have to choose one of them Piggy, that’s not what he is saying. I think you are avoiding the issue here to be honest. He says “Other things being equal if I was asked to chose between”, not “the only choices are…” so why do you ask the question? It is a valid point.* 

Okay. I see your point. However, when did the issue suddenly become one of choosing one group over another. What does which of these guys would you choose for your President have to do with whether or not Muslims should be demonised or how we should show tolerance and treat those on our doorstep with respect?

*Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
often we do not have sufficient knowledge of a person to "post judge" them and so we are forced to "pre judge" them based on the actions of others who profess similar beliefs. 
I suppose then it'd be quite justified for the British to think of all Irishmen as murderers because of the actions of the IRA.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Again Piggy, that is not what YD is saying*

If that's not what he's saying then I'm afraid I can't see what it is he *is* saying to be honest. It looks pretty clear to me.

If I've missed something it's because I'm reading all this rather quickly. Gotta get back to work. Very busy.


----------



## purple (18 Aug 2004)

*Re.Taking the tablets*



> Utter confusion reigns. Purple is being nice to me and cutting off that piggy's tail.


  Sorry YD, I'll try to attack you in my next post(just to keep things clear).


----------



## Dr Moriarty (18 Aug 2004)

*Re: From the sublime to the ridiculous*



> Gotta get back to work. Very busy.



So, how are those new  working out for you, piggy?  

Dr. M.


----------



## piggy (18 Aug 2004)

*Re: From the sublime to the ridiculous*

*So, how are those new tools working out for you, piggy?* 

I don't know what half of them do...but everytime I visit that page I buy something new. Go figure!


----------



## purple (18 Aug 2004)

*work?*



> Gotta get back to work. Very busy.


 I'm still not convinced that you don't do this for a living...


----------



## piggy (18 Aug 2004)

*Re: work?*

*I'm still not convinced that you don't do this for a living...* 

If Brendan wants to pay me to do this then that's his business


----------



## Tizona (19 Aug 2004)

*...what does it mean...*



> What does which of these guys would you choose for your President have to do with whether or not Muslims should be demonised or how we should show tolerance and treat those on our doorstep with respect?



Well it means nothing Piggy, beyond that YD (as an average Paddy) would not choose a Muzzi fundamentalist. 
Nor would I. 
Nor would most people. 

Maybe you would. 

Thats taking PC to its illogical extreme.

PS Those on OUR doorstep should treat US with respect first!


----------



## piggy (19 Aug 2004)

*Re: ...what does it mean...*

Or maybe I just find the question a little silly and of no real benefit or relevance to the debate.


----------



## waitAminute (19 Aug 2004)

*thats it piggy*

Denigrate those who see the big picture and disagree with you.

The west has become complacent and may/will pay a price in the future, probably our children or grandchildren


----------



## piggy (19 Aug 2004)

*Re: thats it piggy*

*Denigrate those who see the big picture and disagree with you.*

You mean you think that choosing a hypothetical President between a Muslim and some other people of disparate religious persuasions is of relevance to any of this?

Maybe you'd like to pick a football team from a pool of Jews, Muslims and Hari-Krishna's while we're at it.

As for the *big picture*...that's exactly what I'm looking at. Any idea how many Muslims there are in the world? It's approximately a fifth of the world's population. The fanatics make up a tiny amount of those Muslims. The fundamentalists might wreak havoc in some areas but they are not representative of all Muslims...an idea that is being peddled in this thread from many individuals. I'm sure I'll be lambasted for even bringing this up but nobody has even bothered to raise the question as to why many of these fundamentalists exist or who created them. Who created Bin Laden for instance? Note, that I'm not trying to apportion blame for these fundamentalists to the US or anyone else...I'm merely trying to offer a realistic perspective by looking at the cause as opposed to just the effect. I fear that many here...including yourself, are only looking at the news and forming the opinion that all Muslims should be feared.

*The west has become complacent and may/will pay a price in the future, probably our children or grandchildren*
In what way have we become complacent exactly?


----------



## piggy (19 Aug 2004)

*Re: ...what does it mean...*

*Those on OUR doorstep should treat US with respect first!*

Provide me with the evidence that Muslims in Ireland are not treating us with the same respect we provide them.


----------



## YD (19 Aug 2004)

*Piggy asks for a lambast*

You don't like my multiple choice questions. piggy, do you?

Anyway, there you go again, its not all Bin Liner's fault that he sends suicide terrorists into tall buildings.

It's not entirely a rapist's fault if women will flaunt themselves.

It's not entirely a petty criminal's fault if they have been brought up in deprived areas.

etc. etc.  PC writ large!!

*It is entirely due to their fundamentalist hatred of all things Western that we got 9/11.  Absolutely no blame whatsoever can be implied to the US, its culture or its foreign policies.*


----------



## piggy (19 Aug 2004)

*Re: Piggy asks for a lambast*

*You don't like my multiple choice questions. piggy, do you?

Anyway, there you go again, its not all Bin Liner's fault that he sends suicide terrorists into tall buildings.

It's not entirely a rapist's fault if women will flaunt themselves.

It's not entirely a petty criminal's fault if they have been brought up in deprived areas.*

I'm afraid I have a bit of a problem when you put words like this in my mouth YD. I never said anything about *rape or criminals*. I also qualified my statements by saying I wasn't apportioning blame to anyone. It's too simplistic to *not* look at the cause as well as the effect.

Your multiple choice questions tend to be very one-sided. That's what I usually have a problem with. In this case...as I said already...it just has zero relevance to the debate.


----------



## YD (19 Aug 2004)

*Oxymoron*

Piggy, don't you realise that a statement which reads "I am not apportioning blame but we must look at the causes..." is a contradiction.  You are clearly positing some condonement of the aggressor based on the actions or attitudes of the victims".  In the case of 9/11 that is totally unacceptable.


----------



## piggy (19 Aug 2004)

*Re: Oxymoron*

*In the case of 9/11 that is totally unacceptable*
I didn't even once mention 911!

And no...I'm not saying anyone is to blame for fundamentalists :\  I'm merely saying that it's very simplistic to believe that they just looked at the West and said...hey, we hate you. There are reasons...that's all I'm saying. Most of those reasons are of course ridiculous...but we hardly help matters when we (as in the West) go invading Iraq and torturing people in prisons. How would you feel looking at that as a Muslim living in the Middle East? Note, before you go jumping to conclusions, I'm not saying that this should lead you to becoming a fundamentalist...I'm merely trying to open up the debate into the wider arena of "why" Western hostility exists.


----------



## waitAminute (19 Aug 2004)

*piggy is the PC fundametalist*

PC is/was good but like everything else too many people see it as their crusade (oops, ishpuild not have used "crusade" as I will insult some moslem somewhere)

They then become fanatics themselves and suffer from a form of "groupthink" (look it up) and believ themselve to be right all the time and have the right to judge others, castigating and denigrating them.

I would like to think that I am part of the "silent majority" and not part of either fanatical side.

Piggy should wake up and look around.


----------



## piggy (19 Aug 2004)

*Re: piggy is the PC fundametalist*

I think you'll find you're part of the silent minority and the more silent it stays the better for all mankind, IMO.

You might believe you're not fanatical...but your posts  certainly make you sound like you are.

I don't think this debate is going anywhere anymore. It's just tit for tat.


----------



## waitAminute (19 Aug 2004)

*for once I agree with piggy*

yes, lets end this thread


----------



## piggy (20 Aug 2004)

*the rise of Islamophobia*

www.fairuk.org/awareweek.htm
[broken link removed]


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## waitAminute (20 Aug 2004)

*For f**** sake piggy*

tell that to the relatives of the people in the trade center
tell that to the mullahs in Iran
tell that to the taliban
tell that to the bali bombers
tell thet to the madrid bombers
tell that to the british people now fighting for al sadr
tell that to the keyna bombers

they are not like the chinese, europeans, hindu, buddists, hispanics, africans (except the islamic afros)

these madmen think if they are killed while massacring us they go straight to heaven

For f**** sake piggy, get a grip.


----------



## soiytarbgter (20 Aug 2004)

*....*

My dear piggy,

Why oh why oh why do you waste your time trying to educate these people? You have to see that you're  utterly wasting your time! Surely you see that!!! They are blind like bats. 

Society has always contained men of low thinking. Why, by Clovis beard do you think you can enlighten them??????????????? Hate against Islam is the same as hate against any religion. It has existed for centuries and will do so for centuries more, because people like to see what they want.
You're preaching to the ignoramouses piggy. Go do something better with your time. You might be right but you will never convince that minority who believe that a billion people livig on this planet are evil! If this were the fifties the hate would be directed at all the pinkos. If we were in germany in the thirties it would be the jews. Small minded people never change. They look at september 11th and other atrocities and that is their justification for hating Muslims everywhere. They know nothing of Islam and the ordinary Muslim. And they DONT WANT TO!!! Let them be piggy.


----------



## enoughPC (20 Aug 2004)

*get your facts right*

Not a billion - 500m (but you are close???)
You need to go and get some education.
Its not the same as any other religion, they don't stick fatwas on authors and the have people lining up to kill them.

Its different and people like you were apologists for Hitler, peace in our time, we can negotiate, make peace not war ...........................and othet dribble

People like sat back and watched 6m jews, gypsies, 20m russians and the rest murdered and then cried & wailed


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## YD (20 Aug 2004)

*pissed as a newt*

And if this was Iran I wud not be allowed to be in this happy state

Piggy, darling, there are some very bad people on this thread, why do you attract them?

I'm a yankee doodle dandee, yankee doodle do or die.

I don't hate muslims,  I do feel sorry for them and I do fear their fanaticism.

I just can't get to grip with the concept of spending years learning how to fly and at the end of it I face suicide - how do I keep to that task?

In a way u got to admire it, be in awe of it,  but really what a frighteningly powerful and destructive force Islam must be to nurture such unbelievable fanatacism.


----------



## John (20 Aug 2004)

*Islam*

Exactly.   What an evil force it must be if it can issue fatwahs, drive suicide bombers, etc.   It is intolerant of us in the west.    They expect our tolerance and hospitality but when we go to their countries we do not get the same in return.

I do not know what drives piggy , she seems to care more for the poor muslems than for the victims of 9/11, the Bali bombing, the Madrid bombing etc.   If Piggy was around in he late thirties, she would be standing up for the Nazis. ( " you have to understand Hitler, why does he feel the need to retaliate against his neighbouring countries etc " )


----------



## jim (20 Aug 2004)

*tibet*

And the Chinese communist army had to liberzte Tibet to free the people.

I remember supporters of the Chinese invasion explaining to me why it was a good and necessary thing to do and how the Americans were the evil capitalist force while I was queuing outside the Carlton cinema.

These naive apologists and PC people have always been around.

jim


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## piggy (20 Aug 2004)

*Re: ....*

Hi soiytarbgter,

I suppose you are right. Maybe I am wasting my time. I am genuinely surprised that there appears to be people who cannot differentiate between Muslims and those who take extremist viewpoints. I suppose it's easier to lump them all in one boat. I'm not Muslim. I don't have any ties to the religion, or any religion for that matter...but thankfully, I don't judge people by what they believe in.

To the individual who believes there are only 500m Muslims in the world. islam.about.com/library/w...120298.htm

The BBC held some interviews with Muslims living in Gloucester, England and I've posted two of them below. It's interesting what they have to say about being Muslim and Islamophobia.
Anyway...I've said my bit now. I am really sad that I live in a country where indiviiduals cannot see the difference between an ordinary, peaceful Muslim and a terrorist. The media has a lot to answer for.

[broken link removed]
_*"And what makes it bad is the use of the term Islamic Terrorists, when a fairer reflection is people who have militant extremist views of the religion, because it is branding everyone under the same banner."*_

www.bbc.co.uk/gloucesters...im_2.shtml
_*"Islamophobia means to me, the misunderstanding of Islam. I wouldn’t say people are scared of Islam, but I’d say they don’t understand it at all. The general public don’t really have an outlet to where they can get information about Islam. So they read and listen to the tabloids, radio, newspapers, TV and the news programmes and assume all the information is correct."*_


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## YD (20 Aug 2004)

*Muslim statistics*

Interesting link, piggy.  

Top 5 muslim countries:

Indonesia
Pakistan
Bangladesh
India
Iran

Not exactly the best pupils in the class.  Is Islam doing anybody any favours either those who believe or those infidels whom they despise?

Piggy, if you don't judge people on their beliefs, what do you judge them on?


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## tp (20 Aug 2004)

*1.2b muslims*

each one will cut your throat if told to do so by a mullah - remember they go straight to heaven -
and you say they are not a threat


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## waitAminute (20 Aug 2004)

*exactly my point tp*

These people are not loyal to friends, neighbours, the society they live in, and the ones who your hear spouting their beliefs are the small tip of a very big iceberg.

They want everything their way no matter what the beliefs or norms of others - we all must adjust to different societies but not them.

Imagine wanting the driver id photos for moslem women to show only the "eyes".

Bin Ladin and the whole of Al Quaeda could be in burkas and who would know.

At lease the US authorities rejected it, I bet they will try the Uk and then Ireland next.

And then you will have the usual PC brigade including piggy saying that its their religon and should be allowed.

Let all fall backwards together to accommodate them, if  the shoe was on the other foot they would not be so accommodating (and thats from the Quran)

"you have a big choice mate, convert or die unless you are a christian or a jew then you must conform to Sharia law or you die"

No messing here!


----------



## John (21 Aug 2004)

*Islam*

Well said.   It amazes me that there can be fools like piggy in this world.   He or she has obviously never met many muslims or been to a muslim country.   Shame on her for believing all the islamic propoganda. Convert or die, Piggy !


----------



## soiytarbgter (21 Aug 2004)

*....*

Hey piggy,

I think you're being trolled big time above. Either that or there are some very ignorant people out and about. Come to think of it maybe it's the latter.

What really concerns me in all this is AAMs stance on the Islamic hate comments. Didn't Brendan ban all religious topics a number of months ago...yet all these very hateful and offensive posts get left here for anyone to read. I don't understand that really. Ah lord...well maybe no one is reading them except the poor demented child who is trolling you all the time.


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## jim (21 Aug 2004)

*soy*

what an intelligent name - matches your thought processes
don't denigrate a point of view


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## YD (21 Aug 2004)

*Religious questions*

Soi...  you're missing the plot.  No one is discussing religious matters here.  Whether the heroes of 9/11 get 21 Virgins each, or between them, or in turn and who gets first go, these are very profound questions found only deep in understanding of the Quran.  I agree that we should leave those deliberations to the Mullahs and Ayatollahs.

However, whether a religion which begets that most contra human aspiration of all - to commit suicide - has an adverse influence on Muslim countries and Muslim individuals  in general, is appropriate AAM material.  Indeed, piggy himself "allowed" such a debate in this thread.


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## purple (21 Aug 2004)

*Pot, Kettle, Black?*

WaitAminute wrote;
 "These people are not loyal to friends, neighbors, the society they live in, and the ones who your hear spouting their beliefs are the small tip of a very big iceberg.

They want everything their way no matter what the beliefs or norms of others - we all must adjust to different societies but not them."
"you have a big choice mate, convert or die unless you are a Christian or a Jew then you must conform to Sharia law or you die"

What you are talking about is religious extremism. Europe was engulfed in nearly 200 years of religious wars in the 15th and 16th centuries, the 30 years war in the holy roman empire (present day Germany, Austria and parts of other countries around them) caused the death of 1/3 of it’s population. When the French Catholics ran amok in Paris and killed thousands of  Heugonaught(spelling)(Calvinist) men women and children the Pope of the day sent his congratulations. A number of Spanish armada’s were sent against Elisabeth the 1st’s England, a model of religious tolerance and individual freedom by the standards of the day. 
In more recent times the rise of anti semitism in Europe was fostered and encouraged by many post Christian liberal  countries. There were more Dutch in the SS during the second world war, per head of population, than there were Germans. Most of there Jews who were deported from France at the same time were rounded up by French people.

My point is that we in the west, and Europe in particular, have a record of racial and religious intolerance stretching from the dark ages right up to the present day, from Africa, to America to Asia and beyond, that is untouchable by any other society or power block in history. 

We should hope that this present day fundamentalist minority does not bring any more of there fellow Muslims down the path that Europe went down with abandon so many times.
We now live in an era of freedom and justice that is unparalleled in history and we want to protect and cherish that.
The question is how much that freedom, and the wealth is depends upon, should be protected and produced by actions and policies that are to the detriment of so much of the rest of the world and if those actions and policies undermine the very values and freedoms we seek to protect.

We should not (_Yes, YD_)be surprised when a minority of those we pillage and control bite back. 
We should be surprised at how tiny that minority is.


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## YD (21 Aug 2004)

*A purple view of history*

Interesting stuff.  Wudn't argue with much of that though one might question why Cromwell's religious zeal was omitted, given its relevance for us paddies.  

But I must take issue with the last two lines:





> We should _(not, I presume)_ be surprised when a minority of those we pillage and control bite back.
> We should be surprised at how tiny that minority is.


There it goes again.  9/11 was to be expected, we asked for it!  What pillage and control?  Even if we accept that there is a bit of P&C, the 9/11 heroes were not in the least reacting to that, they were acting out of fundamentalist religious beliefs and of course with a view to bagging a few virgins.


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## purple (21 Aug 2004)

*2+2=5?*

YD, Cromwell's activities in Ireland while being a big event for us were of no real consequence on an international level (though the plantation of Ulster does still cause the odd problem now and then) and in the context of the times he was relatively restrained, a siege here and there not withstanding. Personally I consider him the Bin Laden of his day, banning Christmas celebrations and singing and such things so in that context he deserves a mention. The fact that he accidentally gave we parliamentary democracy which lead to a secular Europe is one of the biggest ironies ever.

as for 9/11; You are jumping to conclusions with your comments there. I (or rashers for that matter) never said that we had it coming or anything like that. If you want to keep people from rebelling then make sure they have something to lose if they speak up. The workers of the world (developed world) have a lot more to loose than their chains now days so you can be pretty sure that they won't be going to the barricades anytime soon. 
Protest and anti American, (er I mean "anti War") marches will only happen as long as it doesn't take anything out of the pocket's of the protesters.
Consumerism will defeat radical Islam long before guns will, Bin Laden knows that and so do his ilk. That's what they fear. Ignorance, isolation and poverty are the friends of extremism. Prosperity and freedom are it's enemy.
I know that sounds very simplistic and a bit like what dub yaa Bush would say but in broad terms it's true.
That's why Japan and Germany are friends of the US; it's because uncle Sam made them rich.


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## YD (22 Aug 2004)

*Causes of conflict*

I often wondered, purple, is all human conflict ultimately economically based.  It looks like religion or


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## YD (22 Aug 2004)

*Causes of conflict*

Often wondered, purple, whether all human conflict is ultimately economically based.  Sure it is religion, race, nationhood etc. which divides but is it economic considerations which drive us to fight?

Would NI catholics have rebelled if they were getting a good economic deal?

Would Palestinians be so aggressive if they had a good deal?

Would Israel be so oppressive if they didn't fear losing all the relative material comfort they enjoy?

Would Nazism have arisen if it were not for the reparations and the depression?

Would Japan have done Pearl Harbour if it had secure oil supplies?

etc. etc.


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## purple (22 Aug 2004)

*Re.Causes of conflict*

I agree YD, if you are fat and happy you won't give a toss if the government is imposed or elected, at least not enough of one to fight over it. The IRA recruited, for the most part, from poor areas, the suicide bombers my be educated but see no hope for a better life. 
The guy who will kill a stranger for his belongings is not the one to fear, it's the guy who will kill him because he doesn't agree with his beliefs. 
I often think of the great American principals that all have the right to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of happiness and how often we in the west have deprived other of at least the latter two in order to guarantee that we have access to all three.


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## f (22 Aug 2004)

*america*

No one has even bothered to mention how America has treated people in the Middle East. They treat them like dogs so they get what they deserve.


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## Toby (22 Aug 2004)

*this discussion*

I find this discussion fascinating for one reason. The ignorance of so many people. There are two people here who've offered balanced points of view. Piggy & Purple. I can't believe that people would have a go at Piggy for trying to point out that Western media is presenting a propogandaist view of the Middle East and Muslims in general. It just shows peoples stupidity that they cant even recognise when theyve been brainwashed by their own media.
The voice of reason in the madness of Iraq is tiny. Its the smallest minority you could find. CNN and the BBC and FOX present the west with news that suits their point of view. Try to imagine what life is like for people in the middle east and try to imagine what it must be like to live in the west as a muslim right now. The level of hate and stupidity here has reached levels that Ive never before seen on this messageboard. Most muslims are good people and those who aren't are driven by all sorts of complex reasons. There are bad people on both sides of this war. What will save us all is trying to reach understanding between both sides. Listen to the peacemakers.


----------



## jim (22 Aug 2004)

*and you are*

an expert on muslims!
ever read the Quran or even a book on it?
you agree with piggy and purple, lucky them
don't judge others
your post is patronising


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## purple (22 Aug 2004)

*read the Quran*

Hi Jim,
In fairness reading the Quran, or the Bible for that matter, does not tell us much about what it means to be a Muslim or a Catholic now days. Within a few generations of the prophet Mohammed and This post will be deleted if not edited immediately their followers had splintered to such an extent that blood flowed. Now, one and a half to two thousand years later the people on both extremes have little in common with those in the middle.
As YD pointed out a lot of it comes down to access to resources with religion being the most visible division in the middle east. In sub Saharan Africa the division is usually tribal, even in Sudan where it is Muslim against Christian the religious divide is along tribal lines which in turn is along pastoralist and farming lines. 
Christian and Muslim is just another badge of identification between groups that come from different view points. 
The Dutch merchant state in the 17th century which was Calvinist in name but secular in nature must have been feared be catholic Spain in the same way that we are now feared be many Muslims. Indeed the Spanish invaded the low countries on a number of occasions.
Where we must draw a distinction is between the disapproval of the selfish consumerist west by many Muslims and the hatred and willingness to commit mass murder by a tiny minority of Muslims. The hatred of consumerism and materialism in the middle east is more understandable when you look at the poverty of the masses of normal people in most Arab countries and the unimaginable luxury and wealth of the ruling classes. Islam's attraction was that it stopped those sort of abuses in the middle ages and now it's fundamentalist groups seek to do the same thing now.

There have been many comments on this thread about the crusades driving Islam out of Europe. I would like to point out that the farmers of eastern Europe were much better off as free peasants who paid a religious poll tax under Islamic rule than as the surfs they became under Austo-Hungarian and Russian rule. Slaves bound to the land who could not move under pain of death paying 50% taxes or doing three days a week free labour on their masters lands.     

I am no expert on Islam but those who say "read your history" or "read the Quran" must admit that the omission of facts is as bad as lying. One could construct a history that shows Islam as the liberal good guys, the Catholics as the liberal good guys or the whole lot as just power groups and empires trying to expand their power base (which is the version I support).


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## unregistered (22 Aug 2004)

*they cannot be trusted*

i think the point being made is that moslems transend national identity and are never really Irish, English, American, etc and basically they cannot be trusted.

If a country with a sizable moslem community went to war (say over territory ,resources, whatever countries go to war over)with a largle moslem country then that country could not trust their moslem community to support them OR even remain NEUTRAL.

Whitch is unacceptable, given that, that country may have over a hundred year welcomed moslems and gave them and their children a good way of life.

If they don't act againsdt their country directly, they do indirectly by abetting those who do.

unreg


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## YD (22 Aug 2004)

*Great Wise One*

Now, now, Jim, I think we can all recognises that Toby is a GWO.  I for one know that I am beaten when a GWO rules against me.


----------



## John (22 Aug 2004)

*Muslims etc*

Well said unregistered.   Look at all the foreign muslim fighters who went to Afghanistan + Iraq.    Muslims get treated well and fairly in the west, but what does the west get in return?     No Christian church is even allowed within its terrority by the government of Saudi Arabia, which itself is not the strictest of Islamic states. 
Look at the rules imposed by Islamic states.

I think the muslim Britons that grew up in, and left Bradford or wherever to train with the Taliban /  AlQuahida and then took action / plotted action against UK forces / citizens  should be tried with treason.     The only thing it that we would make martyrs out of them , and they have nothing to fear, not even suicide.


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## jim (22 Aug 2004)

*gwo*

whats a GWO?


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## YD (22 Aug 2004)

*GWO*

Pronounced GU as in 2, Great Wise One.


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## jim (22 Aug 2004)

*Ignore GWO query*

I stand in AWE

NOT shock and awe but Aw shucks are these for real


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## purple (22 Aug 2004)

*how can you trust*

What about the German Americans who joined the ranks of Hitler’s army in the late 30’s and fought against their fellow countrymen. Does that mean that despite the fact that the majority of German Americans fought against the nazi’s they should all have been regarded with suspicion and distrust? 

How many British Muslims are in the British armed forces? 
How many went to fight with the Taliban or Al Quahida?

How  many American Muslims are in the American armed forces? 
How many went to fight with the Taliban or Al Quahida?

Can one of the people who are peddling the idea that all Muslims, or even a statistically relevant minority, cannot be loyal to their country fill in the figures for the questions above?
Of course they might have sympathy with a Muslim country when it is attacked or engages in a conflict, just as we would have sympathy with a Christian country in the same circumstances. That’s a long way from treason.


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## f (23 Aug 2004)

*who can you trust*

who needs statistics when you have you're own blinkered prejudices instead.


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## KillBill (23 Aug 2004)

*trust*

If irish troops were involved in a firefight with islamic insurgents, would you trust an irish moslem behind you with a gun
I would't


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## gg (23 Aug 2004)

*re*

Another idiotic "what if" from this guy!


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## KillBill (23 Aug 2004)

*who me?*

close this thread, too many whackos like f around


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## piggy (23 Aug 2004)

*Anti-intolerance forum condemns hatred of Islam*

[broken link removed]

"STOCKHOLM

An international conference against intolerance condemned on January 30 "islamophobia", the fear of Muslims, and put it on an equal footing with violent racism, anti-semitism, xenophobia and homophobia.

A declaration approved at the Stockholm International Forum: Combating Intolerance, said delegates representing some 50 governments condemned intolerance in all its aspects.

"Racism, racial discrimination, anti-semitism, islamophobia, xenophobia, discrimination, violence and murder because of sexual orientation, and all other forms of intolerance violate basic human values and threaten democratic society," the resolution said.

Islamophobia was first brought to the attention of a major global forum in 1994 when Jordan's then Crown Prince Hassan urged the UN General Assembly to stem anti-Muslim sentiment "and other manifestations of islamophobia."

Some populations in traditionally Christian Europe have grown restless amid a growing influx of refugees and migrants, many of whom are Muslims.

UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan, who attended the Stockholm conference, reiterated on January 30 his criticism of ever tighter asylum policies imposed by some EU members.

"The impression is being created that because of popular resentment towards immigrants, some governments are taking approaches which are not in strict conformity with the 1951 Geneva convention (on the treatment of refugees) and with international law," Annan told reporters.

Reuters"


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## waitAminute (23 Aug 2004)

*and this was in FEBRUARY 1993*

The ideological concepts for their actions are derived from the principles of Islam. The enlightened world is tolerant of all religions, believing that all men should be free to live according to their own faith. However, fundamentalist Islam construes Islamic doctrine in an extreme manner according to which Islamic law should be enforced worldwide, even by means of violence and terrorism if necessary. Islamic fundamentalism has made its religious doctrine into a tool to advance its own interests. The statements made by its leaders are all characterized by the extremity of their accusations against the West and Israel, and against the peace process. These statements are accompanied by anti-semitic declarations of the most extreme type. They call for uncompromising armed struggle against Israel and its complete destruction.

In an era in which the threat of weapons of mass destruction has become a reality, the dangers inherent in Islamic fundamentalism embody grave significance.


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## OpusnBill (23 Aug 2004)

*re: they cannot be trusted*

Unreg and John,

One small point - if you switched Muslim for Jew you probably have a good chance of joining the Department for Nazi propaganda in the 1930's and 40's.

Mind you, you'll probably need a time machine or failing that a ouija board, but on the plus side you'll get a nice new uniform - I sincerely hope brown is your colour :rolleyes 

Please tell me you lot are trolling, if not you should sign yourself up for counselling as a matter of urgency...or failing that give yourself up at the local police station and report yourself for committing a race crime....

Incidentally John, ALL those fighters that rallied to the Taliban how many was it again, a couple of thousand or less?  You insinuate that ALL muslims rallied to the call hmmmm...... must have been a bit difficult to sit down somewhere in Afganistan if that was the case. :lol 

Word to the wise you two, the world is made up of good and bad people - regardless of what and who and where you come from - it's the choices you make that determine which group you end up in.

Funnily enough a lot of Muslims DON'T go in for terrorism -some do admittedly, but then you could say the same for all other religious/political groups.

Regards,

OpusnBill


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## piggy (23 Aug 2004)

*Re: and this was in FEBRUARY 1993*

*and this was in FEBRUARY 1993* 

What was in 1993?


I fear you are still unable to differentiate between fear of Islamic fundamentalism and hatred of all Muslims in general.


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## purple (23 Aug 2004)

*waitaminute*

Waitaminute, I agree 100% with your last post.
It's the way in which people on this thread are painting nearly a billion people with the same brush that I can't accept.
We are right to fear the threat but we are also right to ask what the best way to combat that threat is...


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## piggy (23 Aug 2004)

*Re: waitaminute*

*It's the way in which people on this thread are painting nearly a billion people with the same brush that I can't accept.*

I was under the impression that _wat_ was one of those people. Perhaps he can clarify his position on the matter to clear the confusion up?


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## waitAminute (23 Aug 2004)

*you wanta live beside/among them to appreciate them*

www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArc...Feb-93.htm
otherwise its all conjecture and speculation

They will even blow other moslems up to further their aims

Imagine if Israel hade been unable to defend itself in any of the 3 wars,  1948-1967-1973, there would be absolutley no mercy to men, women or children.

You ascribe to them the same morals, attitude to life, culture development, etc that you/the west/the developed world has, and this is wrong. This is not racism or semitisn but merley fact.

Their beliefs and attitutes are 500-600 years out of date and so if you add modern weapons, etc to this fanaticism, you end up with a dangereous and volatile mix.


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## Tom (23 Aug 2004)

*Them and US*

The US are the only real terrorists as far as I can see. Their precision? bombing has killed thousands of innocent. 

Ireland can count themselves in the lap dog category. France and Germany (the only ones in a united? EU to stand up to them) are in the terrier category.

Now they want to wipe that 12 tooth smile off your face with their new passport dictatorship.


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## jim (23 Aug 2004)

*USA*

I won't try to defend the US and their foriegn policies but like many imperial or large powers, their actions are not unique.

However, the fact that both the USSR and the USA had no wish to end their lives prematurely led to the MAD (mutual assured destruction) philosophy whick kept all of us from being wiped out.

The Moslems will happily set of Bio or atomic weapons to kill themselves and take up with them.

They will all end up with Allah sooner (they believe) but what about us who do not want to check out heaven so soon.


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## unregistered (23 Aug 2004)

*cruel*

They are a cruel and merciless people - even they way they kill their enemies, in Algeria and many other places, they cut the throats of whole moslem/arab families rather than shooting them which would be merciful.

How many people can hold a child down and looking into its eyes, cut its throat.

Even the Nazis did not do that. There must be madness in a person to do that


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## OpusnBill (23 Aug 2004)

*re: cruel*

Unregistered,

"How many people can hold a child down and looking into its eyes, cut its throat. Even the Nazis did not do that. There must be madness in a person to do that "

Actually the Nazis did (not to mention gassing etc) as well as a plethora of other obscenities.

While I take your point that the person has to be mentally unbalanced, I again make the point that unfortunately some elements of humanity (regardless of grouping) have this trait.  Or is every Irishman a terrorist, every American a gun-happy lunatic etc etc.?

Condemn the atrocity and the people who do it by all means, don't condemn the entire population as a result.

OpusnBill


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## YD (23 Aug 2004)

*Scathed but unbowed by Toby*

This topic is about terrorism and how to deal with it, so I will avoid discussion on the Ceran.  

In this country we have of course some experience on these matters. We can identify two approaches.

First Approach:  Devalera in the 30s, when he ruthlessly and swiftly defeated them militarily.  

Second Approach: How the British dealt with the modern day IRA.  The provos reckoned that there would be enough piggyness in British society that they would never have the stomach to do the job properly - there would be a substantial sector of British opinion which will think naively "they must have some point, to react so violently".  This British piggyness led to a protracted stalemate which over 30 years saw 3,000 deaths, and ultimately it led to appeasement to the point today where the British are on the verge of conceding "civic" policing, which is code for legitimising the IRA in their fiefdoms.

I know which approach I prefer.


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## piggy (23 Aug 2004)

*Re: Scathed but unbowed by Toby*

*This topic is about terrorism and how to deal with it, so I will avoid discussion on the Ceran*

This post went off topic about 6 pages back. What is the "Ceran" may I ask?

As usual YD your post leaves me wondering as to your capability at understanding what other posters are actually saying. If you'd bothered to try to comprehend what I've been saying at all, you'd have seen that I haven't been talking about how we deal with Islamic fundamentalism. I haven't mentioned it even once as far as I'm aware. 
I was trying to point out that there is a distinct difference between being an ordinary Muslim and an Islamic terrorist and that the international community in general is trying to make a stance to cut out hatred against Islam.

You use the phrase 'piggy' to somehow make me out to be something you think I am. The tragedy is you don't even understand what it is I've been saying :\


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## waitAminute (23 Aug 2004)

*piggyness - A brilliant new word*

Does in mean "naive uniformed do-gooders?" or "placate at any cost" or simply "PC" or "don't hurt their feelings even they don't respect us, our religion or our way of life"
or "let us continue to be a punch bag"

wat


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## YD (23 Aug 2004)

*Piggyness*

From a few pages back, piggy





> ...Note, that I'm not trying to apportion blame for these fundamentalists to the US or anyone else...I'm merely trying to offer a realistic perspective by looking at the cause as opposed to just the effect...


That attitude actually fuels terrorism.  I am not saying you are a muslim or a terrorist or even a terrorist sympathiser (though I am giving you the benefit of the doubt on this last).  Your attitude is naive and  as it is unfortunately quite prevalent in free societies it can endanger the ability of those societies to properly confront an enemy which simply laughs at and exploits such naivite.

BTW That infernal book has so many spellings I decided to use the phonetic Ceran.


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## YD (23 Aug 2004)

*Our posts crossed, WAM*

But piggy in a uniform, that would be a sight for sore eyes.


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## piggy (23 Aug 2004)

*Re: Piggyness*

*Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
...Note, that I'm not trying to apportion blame for these fundamentalists to the US or anyone else...I'm merely trying to offer a realistic perspective by looking at the cause as opposed to just the effect...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------*


I used to think you were a relatively clued in individual YD. The above qoute deals with trying to understand mentalities and where the fundamentalism comes from...*not* how to deal with it. If we don't undertsand it then we can't deal with it in any meaningful way. I'm talking to a brick wall here. 

*I am not saying you are a muslim or a terrorist or even a terrorist sympathiser (though I am giving you the benefit of the doubt on this last*
That pretty much sealed it for me.

*Your attitude is naive and as it is unfortunately quite prevalent in free societies it can endanger the ability of those societies to properly confront an enemy which simply laughs at and exploits such naivite.*
You still don't get it do you. You still refuse to acknowledge a single thing I've said. This debate is completely hopeless. I can't hold a reasoned debate if you keep ignoring what I'm saying and jumping in with 911 every 5 minutes. This is hopeless.


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## waitAminute (23 Aug 2004)

*a piggy on the ropes*

c'mon piggy, just acknowledge that you come from a simpler world where the baddies wore black hats and the goodies wore white hats.

You are a well meaning trusting do-gooder who can't see where this is going, The workd was full of your type during Hitler 's, Idi Amins, Noriega, Stalins, Mao, times.

We can't trust them, shouldn't trust them because they will never really be your neighbour, friend or countryman.

While you children may be on UN duty doing a thankless job keepoing them apart somewhere, your "neighbours" children will be sitting up on the hill along with moslems from all over the world trying to kill them


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## piggy (23 Aug 2004)

*Re: a piggy on the ropes*

*c'mon piggy, just acknowledge that you come from a simpler world where the baddies wore black hats and the goodies wore white hats.*

You mean like presuming that we're good and right all the time and ALL Muslims are bad and evil and out to kill us all. Is that the kind of simple world you mean?

*We can't trust them, shouldn't trust them because they will never really be your neighbour, friend or countryman.*

This is the mentality I'm dealing with here. As I said. This debate has become hopeless.

Why don't you just use the one name wat? Why do you always change it? Are you afraid that people will start to associate your name with a specific way of thinking?


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## YD (23 Aug 2004)

*A brick wall responds*

Now, now, piggy, purple will not be pleased with these personal insults.  

Sorry, but if someone burgles my house, and I catch them on CCTV, I go straight to the police and I hope he gets thrown behind bars.  Maybe, at some later stage, I will reflect, what made that guy do that?, was it coz he comes from Miserable Mansions?  

The subtle point is that dealing with terrorism is quite different from dealing with the *causes* of terrorism.  As I understand you opener it was the former that you were after here.  You deal with terrorism not by understanding its causes but with an iron fist.

Now, as to dealing with the causes, in the case of Islamic terrorism it is a combination of a fanatical medieaval religious philosophy and the desperately impoverished economies that that philosophy has nurtured despite their black gold. I haven't a clue where to begin, though US aid (in all its guises) is one small step, much more useful than pretending their philosophy deserves respect.


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## piggy (23 Aug 2004)

*understanding terrorism*



*"Why have these extremists targeted the United States?*
_Osama bin Laden, al-Qaeda’s leader, and other Arab militants have given several reasons for declaring a jihad against the United States. High on their list is the belief that the United States has “colonized” the Arab world to protect U.S. access to oil. In particular, bin Laden has expressed outrage at the presence of American troops in Saudi Arabia, the birthplace of the Prophet Muhammad. (U.S. forces remained in Saudi Arabia after the 1991 Gulf War to deter Iraq from attacking the oil-rich country.) The extremists also have accused the United States of supporting authoritarian governments in the Middle East while promoting democracy elsewhere, of helping oppress the Palestinians by backing Israel, and of killing what they claim are millions of Iraqis through U.N. economic sanctions against Saddam Hussein."_



*"Do most Muslims support these extremist groups?* 
_No. Few Muslim clerics advocate the radical form of Islam espoused by groups like al-Qaeda. At the same time, experts note, extremist Islamist groups often represent the only form of political opposition in many Muslim countries and often find a significant number of sympathizers. The September 11 attacks were widely condemned across the Muslim world, experts say—notwithstanding significant pockets of support for bin Laden, deep wellsprings of anti-Americanism (further deepened by the spring 2002 Israeli-Palestinian crisis), and a widespread insistence in the Arab world that U.S. policies helped pave the way for the attacks."_



That "iron fist" mentality you're talking about does little except recruit even more disillusioned young men to the cause of Al Queda or other groups, as has been seen in Iraq.


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## waitAminute (23 Aug 2004)

*elaborate*

What do you mean in other guises?
Maybe all other people who think as I do should be banned.
I agree with YD, you are a hopeless case, but remember for Evil to flourish, its only required that Good men do nothing.

Unfortunatley, Evil has help in with apologists and placators like you (to use somebody's else's words)

Before World War 2 , these people were chanting Peace in our time ?(thanks to the nice Mr Hitler)

Adolf was duping them with soft words and nice smiles while holding these people in utmost contempt
wat


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## piggy (23 Aug 2004)

*Re: elaborate*

*Unfortunatley, Evil has help in with apologists and placators like you (to use somebody's else's words)*

I understand that you often find it difficult to be rational or provide any evidence to back up much that you say but perhaps you could enlighten me as to who I'm supposed to be apologising for?...or do you think you in some way _win_ something by calling me names that have little to do with my stance on anything?

*What do you mean in other guises?
Maybe all other people who think as I do should be banned*
Do you think I can't recognise your style of debating and how you attack me? It hasn't changed much.


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## waitAminute (23 Aug 2004)

*piggy*

We don't all use different aliases (like you). :mad 

I seem to remember you being caught out in this board already. :0

:rollin 

Its not personal, your point of view is depressing as its that point of view that allows fanatics to thrive.

You just do not understand the threat that the western world faces - the US going it alone is confusing the threat in many eyes.
I do believe that the western goverments do see the threat.

We're lucky you are not in charge


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## piggy (23 Aug 2004)

*Re: piggy*

*I seem to remember you being caught out in this board already*

It was plainly obvious what I was trying to achieve with _Ralph_. I didn't try to hide who I was. I was proving a point actually. 
If I wanted I could stop using this name. I could just use unregistered names all the time. Much easier. But I choose not to as I'm not afraid to stand over what I say and seeing as I regularly participate in debates in LOS it means that people already know where I'm coming from when I'm making a point.

Perhaps you'd care to answer my question as to who I'm apologising for?

*I do believe that the western goverments do see the threat.*
Actually, the whole world sees the threat. I can see the threat too from fundamentalists. The difference is, most reasonable people are able to differentiate between Muslims and terrorists. You seemingly can't. I've provided you with numerous links to back that up but you refuse to even acknowledge them.


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## waitAminute (23 Aug 2004)

*enough said*

piggy or ralph or napoleon or ..............................

its finny ascribing to others your own trangressions .

We have beaten this to death, so you have been outed and put on the ropes.

Maybe you'll pick a winner somesday BUT NOT TODAY RALPH

:rollin


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## piggy (24 Aug 2004)

*Re: enough said*

*so you have been outed and put on the ropes*

Eh...if you read through the posts on this board you'll see where I actually admitted it myself! I made no secret of the fact. As I said...I was proving a point. It was the only name I used in that particular post so I don't really see your point!!
Then again, if I were to follow your previous logic perhaps it's only meant to hide your lack of reasonable argument.

You've yet again managed to dodge my previous question. Who am I apologising for?

*Maybe you'll pick a winner somesday BUT NOT TODAY RALPH*
Why do I get the feeling I'm arguing with someone in their early teens! Are you capable of holding an adult conversation at all?


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## Dr Moriarty (24 Aug 2004)

*Re: enough said*



> Why do I get the feeling I'm arguing with someone in their early teens?



Because they're sub-literate and don't know a*se? _(just a wild guess...)_


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## YD (24 Aug 2004)

*Appeal for a mercy killing*

Some Moderatpr please do the needful to this thread.  But before you do, please note that I have categorically *not* posted in this thread under any name other than YD.  Why does piggy always resort to this  accusation of multiple identities amongst his debating opponents?  

I am deeply shocked that he himself is guilty of such subterfuge, for much as I pity his naivete, his arguments suggested a basic innocent decency.  I was obviously duped, ok naivete is not a monoploy of piggy's.


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## waitAminute (24 Aug 2004)

*dr m*

"Alternatively, you could always try a few decades of the Rosary...?  "
A sample of Dr M's wit

But I will not slag or insult ala Drm and ralph(oops)

Its enough that they have to resort to it AGAIN

:rollin


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## piggy (24 Aug 2004)

*Re: Appeal for a mercy killing*

*please note that I have categorically not posted in this thread under any name other than YD*

Did I say it was you? Did I say there was multiple aliases being used. No...I didn't. Yet again, you've misunderstood the point I was making. 

*I am deeply shocked that he himself is guilty of such subterfuge*
What subterfuge would that be then?

*his arguments suggested a basic innocent decency*
YD, if you want _wat_ as your bedfellow then that's your choice. Logical debate is difficult when you resort to this to be honest. If you want to believe that all Muslims are inherently evil then that's your business. However, I'm pretty confident that none of my arguments are either naive or innocent. 

However, if you want to paste in what specific points I made you believe to be either innocent or naive I'll gladly clarify them for you.


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## Dr Moriarty (24 Aug 2004)

*Re: dr m*

Here's another sample: 

_[Mysterious, innit?]_
:b


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## waitAminute (24 Aug 2004)

*now you are putting words in my mouth Ralph*

The moslem I know (and I know quite a few) are all invariably nice.

But they are few and in a different country.

When they start getting any sort of numbers, the mullahs come in from abroad (up till recently in the UK, they could come in without restrictions (men of God, y'know) and suddenly they want Islamic law and refuse to assimilate.

England has bent over backwards to accommodate them and still its not enough.
Born, reared and fed and schooled in England they will then go over to Afganistan to support the Talibal and kill English soldiers that probably lived on the same road.

Do you NOT see any danger in this???????????????


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## piggy (24 Aug 2004)

*Re: now you are putting words in my mouth Ralph*

*England has bent over backwards to accommodate them and still its not enough.
Born, reared and fed and schooled in England they will then go over to Afganistan to support the Talibal and kill English soldiers that probably lived on the same road.

Do you NOT see any danger in this???????????????*

I see. In relation to the population of Muslims living in GB can you provide figures for those who went to support the Taliban?
I fear you're using tiny minorities to support your theory.


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## waitAminute (24 Aug 2004)

*can you*

Can you provide numbers for those that do NOT support islamic fundamentalism?

We need to close this thread before we get dizzy from going around in circles.

wam


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## purple (24 Aug 2004)

*Re.can you*



> Can you provide numbers for those that do NOT support islamic fundamentalism?


 Ah, c'mon wam, you are better than that. I've seen some interesting and well constructed posts from you, that's school yard stuff.

You are asking for figures for those who do not hold a particular opinion. It's subjective enough trying to show the proportion of people who do hold an opinion, but how can you show the proportion that doesn't ?!?
I (and Piggy) have asked for figures to show how many Muslims were captured fighting for Bin Ladin from Britain and the US and to compare those figures in to the numbers in the armed forces of those countries. That can be established in fact, not in subjectivity.


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## Tizona (24 Aug 2004)

*Muslims*

Piggy you've been caught out once in your Ralph persona. If you can do it once you can do it a dozen times.
Why would you do it? Not because you aren't afraid to stand over your comments as you suggested (Red Herring) but rather to 'bolster your support' on the thread with an army of fictitious followers.
Shame shame shame, naughty piggy!


From the Guardian:

"Student leaders warned this week that several campuses are being targeted by the Al-Muhajiroun, which aims to create an Islam state in the UK, at this year's freshers' fairs. The group also attracts many A-level students, often as young as 16, who can be sent to military training camps in Pakistan and Afghanistan.

Al-Muhajiroun's leader, Sheikh Omar Bakri Mohammed, has praised the terrorist attacks against the twin towers of the World Trade Centre in New York and the Pentagon in Washington. Other leading figures have claimed that around 1,800 British Muslims take part in "military service" each year, recruited at mosques and university campuses across the country."


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## piggy (24 Aug 2004)

*Re: Muslims*

*Why would you do it? Not because you aren't afraid to stand over your comments as you suggested (Red Herring) but rather to 'bolster your support' on the thread with an army of fictitious followers.
Shame shame shame, naughty piggy!*

Eh...actually, I did it because there was some loser on this messageboard who seems to have it in for me, so in one particular post I used an unregistered username...and as I've already stated, I made no secret of who I was. That was the whole point - to be recognised. If this is your idea of a smear campaign it's a poor one.

I don't really think I *need* an army of fictitious followers to back up my stance on issues like 'The War in Iraq' (seeing as half the country is with me on that one) or this 'Are all Muslims terrorists' crap, because I doubt there are that many Islamophobes out there.


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## waitAminute (24 Aug 2004)

*piggy on the ropes again*

According to Bassam Tibi, one of the world’s foremost specialists on Islamic fundamentalism, “The goal of Islamic fundamentalists is to abolish the Western, secular world order and replace it with a new Islamist divine order. . . . The goal of Islamists is a new imperial, absolutist Islamic world power.”

This is what its all about. Forget about the friendly moslem neighbours and work colleagues ( I know many who have different levels of adherence to Islam and even the real religious ones are nice people) but give the right circumstances (example a fatwa from an ILLITERATE mullah in Iran OR omewhere else) they would go out and shoot you and your family (will of Allah).

Its the blind obedience that is the problem (which really belongs to a few centuries ago) and their willingness to die.


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## waitAminute (24 Aug 2004)

*piggy on the canvas*

to balance things:
The specter of radical Islamists dominating the secular world is frightening, especially in light of recent terrorist attacks, but it is important to remember that most Muslims are not radical and that most espouse a modernist interpretation of the Koran and Islamic traditions. Islamic extremists represent a small faction of Muslims who, although influential, are probably not powerful enough to overthrow world superpowers. The majority of Muslims, especially those who live in the United States, are moderate, and they accept and value secular societies. These Muslims represent a compromise between Western and Islamic customs that celebrates cultural identity and tolerance. 

and the link :
[broken link removed]

"are probably not powerful enough to overthrow world superpowers"

For the moment !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

wam


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## piggy (24 Aug 2004)

*Re: piggy on the canvas*

The title alone shows your level of maturity and just proves that you view a debate as something which you need to win. It becomes clear that no matter what evidence or argument you're presented with you'll never be able to say...yes, you're right. Or...good point. 

I fully agree that Islamic fundamentalism is a threat to the world. However, I do believe that it's been overstated due to the war on terror. That suits some people. I can think of only two countries in the last 20 years that have brought the world close to complete annihilation. Both were superpowers.

You'll have to forgive me if I'm not altogether convinced of your sincerity when you talk about "friendly moslem neighbours"...mainly because of some of the things you've said in previous posts about not trusting them! I still don't think you understand the situation and tend to think that you believe what you want to believe. 

Asking me to provide evidence that Muslims are not running off to Afghanistan to join Al Queda is just farcical. Eh...em...does this mean I win now. Will there be a medal ceremony or something?


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## YD (24 Aug 2004)

*Statistics*

We are told that 20% of the world's population is Muslim
What percentage of world GNP is Muslim? - Guess 2%.
What percentage of Olympic medals will be one by Muslims? Guess 0%.
What percentage of World Aid is divied out by Muslims? Guess 1%.
What percentage of violent conflict is Muslim (India/Pakistan, Indonesia, Sudan, Palestine etc.)? Guess 90%.
What percentage of suicide terrorists are Muslim? Certainty 100%.

We do muslims no favours at all by patronisingly pretending that their culture is to be respected.  Good old fashioned attempts at conversion to rational secular ways would seem to be the more honourable and honest approach.


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## waitAminute (24 Aug 2004)

*on the canvas - is he afraid to get up?*

Piggy, 
"canvas" is an attempt to inject a little humour and describes your position  (picture paints a 1000 words,..)
You have lost the plot, the debate and I think your mind.

Islamic fundamentalism is a world threat and we continue to clasp the vipers to our bosom.

You have not addressed my last post in a coherent manner.

:rollin


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## jem (24 Aug 2004)

as requested - closed


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## waitAminute (24 Aug 2004)

*piggyness - A brilliant new word*

www.urban75.com/Mag/argument.html

now i see your strategy piggy!


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