# Abolition of The Groceries Order



## Omega (8 Nov 2005)

Well, it's finally happened. Fair play to Eddie Hobbs and people power.....


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## Gunnerbar (8 Nov 2005)

pgf5312 said:
			
		

> Well, it's finally happened. Fair play to Eddie Hobbs and people power.....





People power my ....  It's the power of the multi-nationals/supermarkets and that F***** Quinn who have finally empowered themselves into wiping real competition off the face of the retail market. Then believe me, they won't want to sell below cost! 

Ahhh!


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## ClubMan (8 Nov 2005)

Who is the real competition that you talk of? The local corner shop? The ostensibly independent retailers who are often franchisees (_Spar, Centra, Mace, Londis, SuperValu_ etc.)? _Lidl/Aldi_? Somebody else?


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## Gunnerbar (8 Nov 2005)

Yes, the real independents. The local cornershop. Who have also to survive  against the franchises as well as the conglomerates.  Don't kid yourself into thinking that all independent stores are now franchises. Look around. They invariably move into areas already occupied by cornershops

Maybe you'll think different when you'll have to travel miles to the supermarket, spend an eternity in a queue waiting to be checked out by a speechless cashier.  Taking the extra cost of petrol and parking into consideration aswell as the inconvenience. Not to mention the other products that aren't loss leaders.


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## ClubMan (8 Nov 2005)

Gunnerbar said:
			
		

> Don't kid yourself into thinking that all independent stores are now franchises.


I never said I thought that they were *all *franchises.



> Maybe you'll think different ...


 Think different? I never said how I think in the first place. I simply asked some questions.  But now that you mention it...



> Look around.


I do - every day. And what I see is a range of stores from the cut price supermarkets like _Aldi/Lidl_, the regular supermarkets like _Dunnes/Tesco_, the slightly more upmarket supermarkets like _SuperQuinn/M&S_, the franchises and the small "local/corner" shops all doing business and few of them ever closing down due to lack of custom. I have seen people buy stuff that they can get much cheaper on another store because they are prepared to pay a premium for the convenience. That's what a varied and free market is all about. Vive la difference and farewell to unnecessary and competition stifling legislation such as the _Groceries Order._



> when you'll have to travel miles to the supermarket, spend an eternity in a queue waiting to be checked out by a speechless cashier. Taking the extra cost of petrol and parking into consideration aswell as the inconvenience. Not to mention the other products that aren't loss leaders.


As it happens I do most of my general grocery shopping _Lidl_, the local butchers and the _Moore Street _fruit and vegetable stalls and walk or take public transport to and from and I haven't had any problems to date thanks very much.


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## Gunnerbar (8 Nov 2005)

In all fairness now I'm not talking about those that live in or near a town, who would have access to every style of outlet and can pick and choose. I'm talking about the other 75% of the population to whom these local shops serve.  

Good luck to you if you have a real choice to pick and choose and don't live a distance away. 



> Who is the real competition that you talk of? The local corner shop? The ostensibly independent retailers who are often franchisees (Spar, Centra, Mace, Londis, SuperValu etc.)? Lidl/Aldi? Somebody else?




BTW, I think the tone of what you said gave me plenty clue as to where you were coming from!

Right, I'm off to Tescos to get something for the tea!


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## ClubMan (8 Nov 2005)

Gunnerbar said:
			
		

> In all fairness now I'm not talking about those that live in or near a town, who would have access to every style of outlet and can pick and choose. I'm talking about the other 75% of the population to whom these local shops serve.


Where does this 75% come from? According to this report c. 60% of the population of _Ireland _lived in urban areas in 2000 and possibly even more today. Also 1.5 million of a total population of just less than 4 million, or almost 40%, lived in the greater _Dublin _area in 2001. Do you really believe that 75% of the population live in the sticks with no choice in terms of where they can shop other than the local shop? And if they do and there is no other choice then surely the local shop is not under threat by default?



> BTW, I think the tone of what you said gave me plenty clue as to where you were coming from!


Rather than working off clues that you detect in the tone why don't you just read the words instead?


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## DrMoriarty (8 Nov 2005)

I would imagine that the small retailers affected by this will have plenty of opportunity to make their displeasure known to their local TDs...


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## Joe1234 (8 Nov 2005)

Is the lifting of the order immediate?  When will we actually be able to buy groceries cheaper?


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## ClubMan (8 Nov 2005)

I think so - according to tonight's _RTE News _at least one supermarket chain (not named) is already offering two for the price of one specials on milk.


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## bond-007 (9 Nov 2005)

Time for Dunnes Stores to crush the local competition.


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## ClubMan (9 Nov 2005)

I look forward to a ruthless price war in my shopping triangle of _Aldi _on _Parnell Street_, _Lidl _on _Moore Street _and _Dunnes _in the _ILAC Centre _so!


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## bond-007 (9 Nov 2005)

ClubMan said:
			
		

> I look forward to a ruthless price war in my shopping triangle of _Aldi _on _Parnell Street_, _Lidl _on _Moore Street _and _Dunnes _in the _ILAC Centre _so!


 Ben has the power!


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## ClubMan (9 Nov 2005)

_Ben _runs [broken link removed] now.


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## DaveD (9 Nov 2005)

On a worldwide scale Aldi and Lidl are way way bigger than Dunnes, they just don't have quite as many outlets here yet. They could easily do away with Dunnes if they wanted to. Tesco could do it also without blinking.


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## Jister (9 Nov 2005)

Gunnerbar said:
			
		

> Yes, the real independents. The local cornershop. Who have also to survive against the franchises as well as the conglomerates. Don't kid yourself into thinking that all independent stores are now franchises. Look around. They invariably move into areas already occupied by cornershops
> 
> Maybe you'll think different when you'll have to travel miles to the supermarket, spend an eternity in a queue waiting to be checked out by a speechless cashier. Taking the extra cost of petrol and parking into consideration aswell as the inconvenience. Not to mention the other products that aren't loss leaders.


 
I posted something here a while back about being in a village in the west of Ireland last summer that had 3 corner shops and the nearest supermarket was 10 miles away. All 3 shops were extremely expensive and poorly stocked. In my opinion this community is crying out for a Mace or Spar to open up and put the 3 crap shops out of existance so that people don't need to drive 10 miles for nappies etc.


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## Sherman (9 Nov 2005)

This idea of the local corner shop, 'where everyone knows your name' really gets on my goat.

In the area I grew up in all 'local' shops are now Centra, Spar, Londis etc. They are cleaner, better stocked, cheaper, far better selection e.g. deli produce. The staff in the 'friendly' local shop were invariably surly and rude, whereas at least the oriental staff of their successor shops are courteous, polite, and efficient. And they actually bother to run a mop around the place regularly.

Listening to Eamonn Dunphy waffling about his local newsagent 'Trevor' and the chats they have made me want to gag. Of course Dunphy is a) a renowned chatty celebrity; b) lives in Ranelagh, probably the oddest village in the country; and c) has his own 'back in the rare oul' times' agenda.

And getting the guy who owns Morton's in Ranelagh on to defend the groceries order was just hilarious. Oh no, Morton's and Donnybrook Fair may be driven out of business by predatory pricing on nappies


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## ubiquitous (9 Nov 2005)

> All 3 shops were extremely expensive and poorly stocked. In my opinion this community is crying out for a Mace or Spar to open up and put the 3 crap shops out of existance so that people don't need to drive 10 miles for nappies etc.



Anyone who buys nappies in Mace or Spar, except in an emergency, needs their head examined.


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## demoivre (9 Nov 2005)

DaveD said:
			
		

> On a worldwide scale Aldi and Lidl are way way bigger than Dunnes, they just don't have quite as many outlets here yet. They could easily do away with Dunnes if they wanted to. Tesco could do it also without blinking.



 I agree, Aldi/Lidl will continue to open more and more outlets - they have regular ads in the property pages looking for suitable sites all over the country. Finding suitable sites and getting the necessary planning are the only constraining factor to their expansion imo.


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## Jister (9 Nov 2005)

ubiquitous said:
			
		

> Anyone who buys nappies in Mace or Spar, except in an emergency, needs their head examined.


 
When people are stuck for something its much easier to buy them in a local Mace than drive 10 miles to a supermarket. At the moment this village has 3 shops and only sell a very limited range of nappies, baby milk formulae etc.

Who cares about the small shopkeeper anyway? Close down if its not profitable, its called redundancy and it happens every day. Get a job in the new Spar instead.


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## Humpback (9 Nov 2005)

Joe1234 said:
			
		

> Is the lifting of the order immediate? When will we actually be able to buy groceries cheaper?


 
I don't think so. 

The quote from the Enterprise, Trade and Employment website for Minister Martin is as follows - 

"The Minister for Enterprise, Trade & Employment today (Tuesday, 8 November, 2005) announced that he had secured the approval of the Government for the repeal of the Restrictive Practices (Groceries) Order 1987 in its entirety."

No where is it indicated when the repeal will take place. On yesterdays radio coverage it was mentioned that this would only happen when alternative competition legislation will be put in place.

So, they're getting all this kudos on the basis of an intention, rather than an action. Which is typical for this Government. 

Any guesses on how many weeks/months/years it will take to actually drop the Groceries Order?


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## ClubMan (9 Nov 2005)

Before Easter [broken link removed]. But isn't it the case that any shop that decided to sell below (invoice) cost now would hardly be prosecuted or taken to task over it now that the _Order _is to be repealed? Not that I'd condone lawbreaking obviously...


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## ubiquitous (9 Nov 2005)

> Who cares about the small shopkeeper anyway? Close down if its not profitable, its called redundancy and it happens every day. Get a job in the new Spar instead.



Practically all the small shopkeepers in my neck of the woods have converted their stores to Spar/Centra/Mace/Gala/Vivo franchises in the past few years.


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## Humpback (9 Nov 2005)

ClubMan said:
			
		

> Before Easter [broken link removed]. But isn't it the case that any shop that decided to sell below (invoice) cost now would hardly be prosecuted or taken to task over it now that the _Order _is to be repealed? Not that I'd condone lawbreaking obviously...


 
I'd imagine that this is probably going to be the case. And this might be the reason for the offers being reported further above in this thread.

Does this mean that, in effect, the announcement yesterday was really just that Minister Martin told the Director of Consumer Affairs to ignore a central part of her enforcement legislation?

Hardly satisfactory really, is it? Could RGDATA or others have some recourse here to insist that legislation be applied, and not ignored?


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## Gunnerbar (9 Nov 2005)

ClubMan said:
			
		

> Where does this 75% come from? According to this report c. 60% of the population of _Ireland _lived in urban areas in 2000 and possibly even more today. Also 1.5 million of a total population of just less than 4 million, or almost 40%, lived in the greater _Dublin _area in 2001. Do you really believe that 75% of the population live in the sticks with no choice in terms of where they can shop other than the local shop? And if they do and there is no other choice then surely the local shop is not under threat by default??



Now it's you that isn't reading the posts accurately. Where did I say that 75% of the population live in the sticks or to be more accurate in rural areas. I was refering to proximity to a town. 

OK 75% was a guesstimate but I would imagine it's not too far off the mark. According to the report you  linked " 1.5 M people lived in the Greater Dublin area in 2001". And considering the developmenmt of some of the one time small towns which now have a suburbia; it costs to get into the main town. That's all. You yourself admitted to having to use public transport to get into the city which was my point originally! Which is relatively expensive and time consuming, unless you are getting a large order when other problems will become apparent. Point!



			
				ClubMan said:
			
		

> Rather than working off clues that you detect in the tone why don't you just read the words instead?




And to think I thought you were vehemently in favour of dropping the groceries order! 

Give me a break Clubman.  Try making the tone of your posts clearer if I got you wrong! 
(Which I didn't)


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## ClubMan (9 Nov 2005)

Gunnerbar said:
			
		

> OK 75% was a guesstimate


OK - so you made it up. Thanks for clarifying that.

Anyway - can you explain this seeming contradiction:



> Yes, the real independents. The local cornershop. Who have also to survive against the franchises as well as the conglomerates.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


You seem to be bemoaning the threat to certain "local cornershops" (images of _The League of Gentlemen _spring to mind) posed by the multiples especially in the aftermath of the abolition of the _GO _but you also bemoan the lack of choice in terms of shopping outlets available to certain remote (?) communities. How do you square this seemingly contradictory argument? If the community only has the local shop then it is not under threat. If the multiples move in then they have more choice. Which is more important in your view because you can't really have both?



> Give me a break Clubman.  Try making the tone of your posts clearer if I got you wrong!


Haven't a clue what you mean by making the tone of my posts clearer. I try to concentrate on keeping the content as clear as possible but some people still seem fixated on tone for some reason...


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## Gunnerbar (9 Nov 2005)

ClubMan said:
			
		

> OK - so you made it up. Thanks for clarifying that.



Eh, no I didn't make it up. I estimated it from the figures you gave me. You know where I was coming from so there's no need to be so pedantic.



			
				ClubMan said:
			
		

> Anyway - can you explain this seeming contradiction:
> 
> 
> You seem to be bemoaning the threat to certain "local cornershops" (images of _The League of Gentlemen _spring to mind) posed by the multiples especially in the aftermath of the abolition of the _GO _but you also bemoan the lack of choice in terms of shopping outlets available to certain remote (?) communities. How do you square this seemingly contradictory argument? If the community only has the local shop then it is not under threat. If the multiples move in then they have more choice. Which is more important in your view because you can't really have both?



Firstly, have you ever been in a "corner shop". If you think that these outlets resemble something from A League of Gentlemen then I can kinda understand where your coming from. But they're not. Secondly I wasn't bemoaning the lack of choice in suburban areas. I know right well you can't have a super market on every estate. But maybe you were trying to glean something from my (percieved) tone! {fixated indeed}! 



			
				ClubMan said:
			
		

> Haven't a clue what you mean by making the tone of my posts clearer. I try to concentrate on keeping the content as clear as possible but some people still seem fixated on tone for some reason...





			
				jister said:
			
		

> Who cares about the small shopkeeper anyway? Close down if its not profitable, its called redundancy and it happens every day. Get a job in the new Spar instead.



Maybe it was meant to be funny?

But try here for a well balanced and heat free discussion!

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054846980


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## ClubMan (9 Nov 2005)

Gunnerbar said:
			
		

> Eh, no I didn't make it up. I estimated it from the figures you gave me. You know where I was coming from so there's no need to be so pedantic.


I gave you the figures *after *you posted the 75% "guesstimate". Please try and pay attention. Not being pedantic either - just trying to clarify if there is any substance to your figures. Seemingly not.


> Firstly, have you ever been in a "corner shop".


Er, well - yeah. What's your point?


> Secondly I wasn't bemoaning the lack of choice in suburban areas. I know right well you can't have a super market on every estate. But maybe you were trying to glean something from my (percieved) tone! {fixated indeed}!


I never mentioned suburban areas. As I said - read my words and don't try to infer things from tone and the like. You still haven't explained how you square your concern for the hard pressed "corner shop" owners with the lack of shopping outlet choices available to some people. Let me make it simple for you - which is more important to you: the survival of small independent retailers or the availability of wider choice (and value) to consumers?


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## ubiquitous (9 Nov 2005)

Lads can we move this discussion on please?

For what its worth, I have never found much of a difference between the relative numbers of corner shops in the North (where there is and was no Groceries Order) and in the South, so I can't see the end of the Groceries Order making much difference to this sector.


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## Gunnerbar (9 Nov 2005)

ClubMan said:
			
		

> I gave you the figures *after *you posted the 75% "guesstimate". Please try and pay attention. Not being pedantic either - just trying to clarify if there is any substance to your figures. Seemingly not.


Again, the figures were not complete for suburban areas which is what I was referring to! And I don't think I was enormously off the mark with what I was trying to illustrate!




			
				ClubMan said:
			
		

> Er, well - yeah. What's your point?


Blatently obvious!



			
				ClubMan said:
			
		

> I never mentioned suburban areas. As I said - read my words and don't try to infer things from tone and the like. You still haven't explained how you square your concern for the hard pressed "corner shop" owners with the lack of shopping outlet choices available to some people. Let me make it simple for you - which is more important to you: the survival of small independent retailers or the availability of wider choice (and value) to consumers?



Yes, I know YOU never mentioned suburban areas it was I who was referring to them in the first instance. You assumed as much. 

Of course open and FAIR competition is vital everywhere in business. And your "either - or" question is such an overly simplification of the matter that's it's not even worth answering. Sorry!

Fin


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## CCOVICH (9 Nov 2005)

Aldi and Lidl sell groceries cheaper than Dunnes and Tesco
Tesco and Dunnes sell groceries for less than Superquinn and SuperValu
Superquinn and SuperValu sell groceries cheaper than Spar and Centra
Spar and Centra sell goods cheaper than Texaco and Esso
Texaco and Esso sell goods cheaper than Smiths Shop and BJ Murphys

This was/is the case under the Groceries Order.

What difference will it's abolition make?  If there is demand for a shop at the moment, there is likely to be demand in the future, as long as that shop is able to offer something that it's customers place a value on, be it cost, quality, convenience, service, employment, profits for the owners, whatever.  

My family used to live 10 miles from the nearest multiple, and our local 'corner shop' was 3 miles away.  We used to get our weekly shop in the multiple, if we needed extra milk or the Sunday paper, we went to the 'corner shop' (no corners in the village).  That shop is still there today, even with the arrival of Lidl and Aldi.  

I don't see what the big deal is.  Grocery inflation in the UK was 13% in the past 10 years.  The comparitive figure for Ireland was around 30% (from today's Irish Times).  So prices increased in the UK, albeit at a slower rate.


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## Humpback (9 Nov 2005)

CCOVICH said:
			
		

> So prices increased in the UK, albeit at a slower rate.


 
I think this is the key to the eventual (if it ever happens) repeal of the Groceries Order. Prices aren't necessarily going to decrease, and this €1000 saving for a family is a bit of a "pie in the sky" notion anyway.

Prices may not increase as fast because of the repeal of the Order, rather than prices going down (long term, rather than short term).


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## CCOVICH (9 Nov 2005)

ronan_d_john said:
			
		

> I think this is the key to the eventual (if it ever happens) repeal of the Groceries Order. Prices aren't necessarily going to decrease, and this €1000 saving for a family is a bit of a "pie in the sky" notion anyway.
> 
> Prices may not increase as fast because of the repeal of the Order, rather than prices going down (long term, rather than short term).


 
I think the figure that is/was being bandied about is closer to €500, but anyway.


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## Humpback (9 Nov 2005)

CCOVICH said:
			
		

> I think the figure that is/was being bandied about is closer to €500, but anyway.


 
[broken link removed]

I believe Eddie Hobbs, his facts are known to be *************************


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## Jister (9 Nov 2005)

The €1000 is relative to the size of the family surely? The supermarkets will slash the price on certain commodoties to lure in customers. EG if milk, bread, eggs and a few other items are slashed then people will go the the supermarket more often and buy all the other items at reasonably standard prices.


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## Teabag (13 Nov 2005)

Now that Michael Martin has abolished the Groceries Order, will he return the nappy I sent him ? I put the sender address on the back of the envelope.

I knew I should have sent him a used one.


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## extopia (13 Nov 2005)

No corner shops left where I live. No, actually there is one, who sells out of date chocolate bars to kids (full price of course, no discount). When I pointed it out he called me "silly, sure there's nothing wrong with it." 

I don't have much affection for this kind of business. Small shops can survive if they add value to what they have to sell. Expertise. Stuff You Can't Get Anywhere Else. Whatever. I personally don't want to subsidise this kind of anachronism anymore. If the local Trevor or Morton can't compete with supermarkets without anti free market  directives in place he should get into a different business. No one is owed a living, not even your local shopkeeper.


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## Humpback (14 Nov 2005)

Teabag said:
			
		

> Now that Michael Martin has abolished the Groceries Order, will he return the nappy I sent him ? I put the sender address on the back of the envelope.QUOTE]
> 
> Well, seeing as he hasn't actually abolished it, maybe he's keeping a hold of it in case prices don't drop between now and whenever he does actually abolish it.


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