# tax returns when ill



## 25euronote (25 Nov 2015)

im in the middle of mental breakdown.  getting threats from revenue about more audits.
question
if i screw up on a return now because of my meds/state could revenue still prosecute? i was done a year a go,  

i tried talking to the revenue but was told to write to them.

worried about late fees interest and audit.


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## Bronte (26 Nov 2015)

Hi 25Euronote, do you have an accountant?  It is better for you to write to revenue than to call them as this way you have a record.  You can do it by email even. 

A lot of those threatening letters are just computer generated standard threats.  Can you give us a bit more detail please.  Are you self employed etc?

Perhaps because of your medication the letters are making you fearful and maybe there is no need to be.


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## Bronte (26 Nov 2015)

New poster 25Euronote sent me a PM and it's heartbreaking and about the worst I've ever read on here and that's saying something.  So I've asked him if I can do a post trying to summarise the issues and he agreed and I've done this in the next post and he'd really appreciate some help.  I will ask him to check what I've written to see if more sense can be made of it.

At his request I've left out the personal details.  If he wants to tell you guys that himself that's up to him but I hope some of you can help him.


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## Bronte (26 Nov 2015)

Self employed. No employees. Spouse paye worker.

*2012 late with returns*.

Lived off his tax bill (_I assume he means of the money to pay the VAT or something_) for a while and because of that he had a full "all heads Audit" which took two days.  First day was in a cubicle in his accountants office.  Accountant was not involved in any communications. (I think he means with revenue)  Second day involved the inspectors in his home for the day.

His accountant sent him a bill for 2,200 which shocked him.  And so he queried his normal bill for Profit and Loss accounts and then the bill for 1500 was reduced to 800 + vat (_I'm not sure if the 1500 is separate to the 2200 bill, I guess it is and that the 2200 is for the audit work_)

Next accounts arrived turned out it was just an income and expenditure account and form 11 return.

*2013 tax returns*

They were not submitted.  But VAT returns were / are up to date.

*Year??*

Did a vat return in June and was due a refund of €90.  But got a letter from Revenue stating that they wanted January to June Day books submitted in excel format along with copies of ten largest sales and purchase invoices or I would be audited.  It took 2 weeks to gather this information.

*Problem 1 Susi education grants*

Applied for susi grant for eldest child..  Was refused because he's missing assessment for y/e 14.  Letter arrived from college today stating more or less settle up or get out.

_What are his options here, can he explain to the college by letter and wait for his accounts to be sorted, what is the mechanism_

*Problem 2 unemployment refused to child*

22 year old child went to sign on for unemployment benefit and was refused because accounts are not completed.

_I don't understand this one, why is what your parents earns taken into consideration by social welfare._


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## elcato (26 Nov 2015)

Problem One: He should contact the hardship case officer in the university (Assuming it's not a private college of some sort).

On two, is there a chance the child worked for him ? Chuild should go to local heakth centre and talk to welfare officer perhaps ?


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## Joe_90 (26 Nov 2015)

There is a lot going on here.

A two Revenue audit is a serious thing but does that mean 2012 is dealt with.  What were the issues that arose?

2013 accounts not submitted, have they been prepared?  What's the issue getting them finished and submitted?

A VAT refund trigger an aspect query from the Revenue we expect them everytime we file a refund return.  When the return is done, all the backup should be there,  not sure why it took two weeks to get the back up.

What's the level of turnover in the case, does the VAT tie back to the sales and purchases?

I have a lot of sympathy for the OP but Revenue are trying to get the outstanding returns in, if the VAT is done a set of accounts or at least an income and expenditure pulled together and filed.

Has he paid his accountant, is that what's holding up the 2013 accounts.

SUSI will want his accounts and notice of assessment to assess his income.

Children living with their parents under the age of 24 are means tested http://www.citizensinformation.ie/e...s_income_can_affect_jobseekers_allowance.html


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## 25euronote (26 Nov 2015)

Thanks for the replies.
Firstly, 2200 + vat was for use of a cubicle in an office for 8 hours.  There was no communication between the revenue and my accountants.

On the second day of Revenue Audit, the supervisor apologized said there were minor queries, ( included the odd cup of coffee on a diesel receipt),
claiming a laptop as an expense instead of a depreciating asset even though the laptop broke in the first month of year 2.  I argued my case and the supervisor relented.  No problem there.  

After the audit I looked at my a/cs in more detail and discovered that incorrect write backs were done for light and heat, i never claimed for lunch expenses for jobs more than 15 miles away from office.  20% of my medicine bills of which there were many were not claimed for - ever despite them being provided to my accountants.  Mortgage protection insurance on a rental I have was never claimed for, these are just a few of the things when I reviewed my accounts after the revenue audit.  I was charged a separate charge of 1500 for annual accounts based on day books that I provided.  I always paid this bill without question.  2012 accounts were done and paid for but when I went on ROS I saw the accountants never submitted them.
2013 accounts are done but I want to reconcile them with vat before i submit them.  (There are a lot of other things going on in my life)

Im a sole trader with an average net profit of 35k.  Last year I made (roughly 23k).  It does not pay me to work with my particular set of circumstances.  However with a rented property (that I cannot sell due to subsidence in a neighboring property), I am not entitled to a medical card.  This is why I wont / cant ask my accountants to intervene.

"A VAT refund trigger an aspect query from the Revenue we expect them everytime we file a refund return. When the return is done, all the backup should be there, not sure why it took two weeks to get the back up."   You use the word WE.  With me there is just me. No we.  It took two weeks to input the daybooks in excel format as requested.  This is because, Im a carer, Im sick, Im trying to earn money, and Im on meds that have me stupid.  I write my books up by hand.   During my revenue audit I was asked "who does your bank lodgements, who does your marketing, who helps you with your work, etc etc.  They presumed based on false information that I had a crew working for me and I was under declaring income.  This particularly resonated with me as I felt bullied and intimidated.  I started to remember bullying from when I was a kid.  I got panic attacks.  While the supervisor apologized, the "underling" threatened me with additional revenue audits.

I will lodge an appeal with SUSI tomorrow.  I will call the college and explain my personal circumstances.  In the interim Im trying to get my returns regularized.

I am toying with the idea of separating from the family so they can at least get FIS etc.

Getting back to my original post - I can submit all returns under pressure so as to satisfy revenue and susi etc.  However if i make a mistake due to my current medical condition,   will I be prosecuted for making a false return?  Its no fun having officials enter your home flashing IDs , reading you your rights, informing you of the consequences of them discovering something I did not declare.  (I guess you have to have an audit as a sole trader on your own to understand that fear).  To have two officials ask you 20 pages of questions, one doing the asking both writing down the answers is mind bending.  (I subsequently met someone in a similar situation - he told me that he had to go out the back garden and throw his guts up).


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## RichInSpirit (27 Nov 2015)

Hi 25Euronote. I sympathise with you and your dealings with Revenue.
I was self employed, sole trader back a few years ago.  Net profit not as good as you. Relatively large debts.
Unregistering as a business might be an option you should consider. 
I did eventually and it frees your mind a good bit.

In hindsight I'm not sure about the mental breakdown part but I went a year without opening any letters other than very innocent looking ones, back a few years ago.
In one way it concentrates your creditors minds. I wouldn't have even known if I had a tax audit in that period. Plus it unhinges those sending the letters a bit.
Moving on a few years, now completely unregistered as business but Paye worker. I deal with a solicitor collecting for revenue now, much nicer than revenue, still large debts.
Almost zero correspondence from the Revenue now, they probably consider it a waste of money.

I think I'm beginning to emerge from the other side of this recession now. I'm a different character than I was before. I'm ready and eager to fight all matter of financial battles now. 

You have to protect yourself mentally from your creditors. Your mental health is much more important than money. 

Keep the faith.


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## Bronte (27 Nov 2015)

*Accountants fees*

So it seems 25Euronote was charged two bills by his accountants.  One was related to the audit, for the use of a space in their offices for a day while the revenue did their audit and he seems to suggest he was charged €2,200 for this with no actual input/work from the accountants which seems extraordinary.

I wonder do accountants legally have to supply a 'estimated bill' letter like solicitors (S64 letter) if not it would seem a good idea for the profession.

*Revenue audits and triggers*

Apparently we now learn that a VAT refund automatically triggers an audit.  And I know from other posters on here over time those that pay on time generally they get hardest hit by revenue if even a day late as they are an easier target for revenue statistics than Joe Bloggs who never sends anything in ever on time and is a disaster to deal with.

*Revenue letters and intimidation*

As it happens this year I got a load of letters from revenue as my accountant was separting me from my husband for tax returns and I glanced at a few of them and it would be true to say they are written in a very agressive manner.  Lots of warning and stuff.  I thought to myself is there really a need for this level of aggressive in tone English and to those not used to them, or stuggling with health issues it can be very overwhelming.

I also find it a waste of taxpayers money Mr. Revenue jobsworth quering a cup of coffee, which is what a Euro, on a diesel receipt.  Is this really what they do.


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## Bronte (27 Nov 2015)

Joe_90 said:


> .  When the return is done, all the backup should be there,  not sure why it took two weeks to get the back up.



Joe can revenue force you to compile your accounts in a certain way.  Euro25 seems to have his accounts in paper accountancy books rather than an excel.  Can they really insist that he put everything in excel to make their lives easier?

In relation to audits, do they really flash ID's and read you your writes and scare the living daylights out of you telling you of the dire consequences if you've forgotton something. 

(This reminds me of my accountant warning me about what he'd seen auditors do in his office to a client, very unprofessional approach by revenue is what is left with me and a scary experience, can't remember exactly but I decided if that were ever to happen to me I'd record the whole thing)


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## Bronte (27 Nov 2015)

25euronote said:


> After the audit I looked at my a/cs in more detail and discovered that incorrect write backs were done for light and heat,
> 
> these are just a few of the things when I reviewed my accounts after the revenue audit.
> 
> ...



You seem to be suggesting that your accountant, whom I would suggest is well paid, and whom you supply your day books to is not correctly filing your tax returns.  I'm not sure, but if you supply the medical receipts surely that's a simple thing to claim for, ditto light and heat and really the insurance is a no brainer.

Also strange you paid yoru accountant for 2012 but he did not apparently submit the return.

Now unless you are mistaken this is definitely not correct behaviour.  I can see an accountant missing say one thing, but not many, not basic things and not submitting a return on time.  BUT as I said it does depend on what you've hired him to do and what you submit to him and when you give it to him.

I think what you are saying is you submitted everything to your accountant, trusted him, he did the returns, but you never checked and assumed he was doing it correctly, but later when you checked yourself you found that he'd not claimed for quite a few things.  I have no idea what comeback you have here.  But we also have no idea what you actually gave your accountant.

*SUSI*

That's good to contact the college, another thing out of the way.  I'd say Friday morning rather than afternnoon is best.


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## 25euronote (27 Nov 2015)

The accountants submitted y/e 12 returns, but not the accompanying accounts.  I still got the notice of assessment.  When you log on to ROS it states that returns are incomplete.

If I can use the analogy of the 10 year old in the playground, maybe hes a bit effeminate , or doesn't like football, maybe he has red hair, maybe he smell different to everyone else, maybe he oozes fear because of an abusive family background - could be anything.  Then a group of his classmates come up to him at lunch time and tell him that hes going to have the SiH# kicked out of him after school by "Tomo" in 6th class.

The actual beating lasts a minute at most, however the 4 hours from 12 to 4 O Clock, are the most stress full imaginable.  Who can you go to? No one.

As I said Ive already had the audit and got the months notice.  Ive lived that fear.  On the other hand the audit was professional and once it started "I got in the GRUVE".  But Im not doing it again.

My question was if I am mentally unstable and I make a return and sign it, and it is subsequently found to be defective / inaccurate, do I have a defense?

Bronte, its interesting, your point about them flashing IDs etc, etc, the intimidation.  While all this was going around me there were daily reports of Politicians, Builders, Bankers all being investigated.  However they had the money / contacts to hire the best of accountants and solicitors,  The individual soletrader/ sub contractor who is the backbone of the economy is bullied cajoled and screwed.  As an example the extra USC surcharge.  Or having to pay next years tax (prelim) when you dont even know what your earnings will be next week.


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## Jon Snow (27 Nov 2015)

Bronte said:


> Joe can revenue force you to compile your accounts in a certain way.  Euro25 seems to have his accounts in paper accountancy books rather than an excel.  Can they really insist that he put everything in excel to make their lives easier?


No, they can insist on being given whatever books & records exist, in whatever format they exist. I'd say there's crossed wires there - most people with a business of any kind of size will use excel or bookkeeping software to prepare their books, so the tax official will want the soft copy of such a record, rather than a printout. That's just common sense on their part, as its infinitely quicker to check it in excel than with pen & calculator!




Bronte said:


> In relation to audits, do they really flash ID's and read you your writes and scare the living daylights out of you telling you of the dire consequences if you've forgotton something.
> 
> (This reminds me of my accountant warning me about what he'd seen auditors do in his office to a client, very unprofessional approach by revenue is what is left with me and a scary experience, can't remember exactly but I decided if that were ever to happen to me I'd record the whole thing)



Firstly, Revenue officers are required to identify themselves to you and show their authorisation card to confirm their identity and that they are authorised to be there.

Under the Code of Practice for Revenue Audit and other Compliance Interventions, the auditor is required to explain the benefits of making a disclosure, and give the taxpayer an opportunity to make one, before they begin examining records.

I'm in no way suggesting no Revenue officer has ever been mean or intimidating to a taxpayer, but I'm very conscious that we only have one part of a story here.


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## T McGibney (27 Nov 2015)

25euronote said:


> The accountants submitted y/e 12 returns, but not the accompanying accounts.



This is the correct approach and has been standard for self-assessment business taxpayers for many years at this stage. Your tax return includes extracts from your accounts. Unless these are included, the return won't upload to ROS.



> Firstly, 2200 + vat was for use of a cubicle in an office for 8 hours. There was no communication between the revenue and my accountants.



Neither of these statements makes any sense whatsoever.


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## elcato (27 Nov 2015)

25euronote said:


> My question was if I am mentally unstable and I make a return and sign it, and it is subsequently found to be defective / inaccurate, do I have a defense?


This is a good example of you worrying about things that 'may' happen rather than things that will. 'To the best of my knowledge' is usually the line here as long as it's not too far-fetched you will bo OK. I know it's easy for me to say but you need to focus on what is happening and not what might happen.


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## 25euronote (27 Nov 2015)

Jon Snow said:


> No, they can insist on being given whatever books & records exist, in whatever format they exist. I'd say there's crossed wires there - most people with a business of any kind of size will use excel or bookkeeping software to prepare their books, so the tax official will want the soft copy of such a record, rather than a printout. That's just common sense on their part, as its infinitely quicker to check it in excel than with pen & calculator!
> I got the letter.  I rang the tax office.  I spoke to the person who wrote the letter. I was told they wanted the records by email and on excel.  I was not given any options.  When I had prepared them on excel (and note Joe, I usually do prepare  them on excel).  I phoned the same individual and explained that i did not have time to scan 20 invoices for email.  The individual said "sure drop them in when your passing"
> 
> 
> ...



Why is the above statement relevant?  In my case it was perception.  Its what I perceived would happen and the Revenue know that they are intimidating, thats how they get you to make voluntary disclosures.  Unless you have been on the receiving end of an audit - and I dont mean sitting beside a client who is being audited, you have no idea of the fear.


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## 25euronote (27 Nov 2015)

elcato said:


> This is a good example of you worrying about things that 'may' happen rather than things that will. 'To the best of my knowledge' is usually the line here as long as it's not too far-fetched you will bo OK. I know it's easy for me to say but you need to focus on what is happening and not what might happen.



Thanks for this.  Its about the most sensible thing that has been said.

As stated Im not bothered by an audit, Ive had one, so I can handle it.  Its the consequences of making a false declaration.


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## 25euronote (27 Nov 2015)

T McGibney said:


> This is the correct approach and has been standard for self-assessment business taxpayers for many years at this stage. Your tax return includes extracts from your accounts. Unless these are included, the return won't upload to ROS.
> 
> Im merely stating what ROS says on the screen in front of me.
> 
> Neither of these statements makes any sense whatsoever.



This post will be deleted if not edited immediately wept.  I got a bill of 2,200 from the auditors for the rental of a cubicle in their office for one day.  A senior partner walked in on the meeting introduced him self and left.  There was no further interaction.  When I queried this bill (bear in mind the revenue spent day 2 in my house) I was told that I should have had insurance to cover the cost of a revenue audit.  

I have always prepared my own accounts.  Ive been doing it for thirty years.  I do all the reconciliations.  My accountants, used to prepare a p and l and balance sheet and submit the return.

In my stupidity, I thought the returns would be better coming from an external professional that being presented by my self.


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## T McGibney (27 Nov 2015)

Relax, the issue of "false declarations" rarely arise in routine small sole trader audits. The emphasis, both in the Code of Practice for Revenue Audit and in real life situations, is on co-operation with the Inspector who completes the audit. Once you co-operate reasonably with the Inspector, and particularly as there are outside extenuating factors in your case, you should be fine in that regard.


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## T McGibney (27 Nov 2015)

25euronote said:


> This post will be deleted if not edited immediately wept.  I got a bill of 2,200 from the auditors for the rental of a cubicle in their office for one day.  A senior partner walked in on the meeting introduced him self and left.  There was no further interaction.  When I queried this bill (bear in mind the revenue spent day 2 in my house) I was told that I should have had insurance to cover the cost of a revenue audit.



Such a bill makes no sense. I'd love to see it. I can't see any insurer paying it either - they're not mugs. You could have hired a hotel room for €100.

Did the accounting firm leave you alone with the Inspector in this cubicle, without any of their staff present, for the entire duration of the audit interview?


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## Bronte (27 Nov 2015)

Jon Snow said:


> No, they can insist on being given whatever books & records exist, in whatever format they exist. I'd say there's crossed wires there - most people with a business of any kind of size will use excel or bookkeeping software to prepare their books, so the tax official will want the soft copy of such a record, rather than a printout.
> 
> I'm in no way suggesting no Revenue officer has ever been mean or intimidating to a taxpayer, but I'm very conscious that we only have one part of a story here.



I'm not getting you in relation to a record versus a printout.  For example I put all my rental records in excel, and then in my paper file I have my receipts and my bank statements and that's it.  I'd have to show that if asked by revenue, but I woudn't have to put it into a different format to suit them.  The poster here seems to put all his records into paper accountancy books but was asked to put them into excel.  Apparently.

Agreed we've only one side of the story, but I've negotiated with high handed revenue officials back in the day and I've had relations take them on etc.  There is a world of difference explaining your rights to disclose versus threatening and intimidating and some officials do take it too far.


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## Bronte (27 Nov 2015)

25euronote said:


> This post will be deleted if not edited immediately wept.  I got a bill of 2,200 from the auditors for the rental of a cubicle in their office for one day.  A senior partner walked in on the meeting introduced him self and left.  There was no further interaction.  When I queried this bill (bear in mind the revenue spent day 2 in my house) I was told that I should have had insurance to cover the cost of a revenue audit.
> .



I didn't know one could have insurance for an audit.  I'd have gone to my solicitor if presented with a bill for €2200 if they did no work.  Surely the accountants bill must show something on it, what does it say?  It seems from your reply that it's for work on a revenue audit.  They are your accountants so they must have been dealing with revenue for you?

Also sounds like a big firm if it's got cubicles and senior partners etc.


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## Bronte (27 Nov 2015)

T McGibney said:


> Such a bill makes no sense. I'd love to see it. I can't see any insurer paying it either - they're not mugs. You could have hired a hotel room for €100.
> 
> Did the accounting firm leave you alone with the Inspector in this cubicle, without any of their staff present, for the entire duration of the audit interview?



I agree with you Tommy and he said it was not just a meeting but a full day in the accountancy office and again in his house.  That wouldn't be normal, to meet with revenue for an audit without your accountant being present the whole time, I can't see how that can be. 

And it seems there is actual revenue audit insurance?  How much does this cost and who would need it and for what do they pay out?


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## 25euronote (27 Nov 2015)

Yes.
Im not paying it.  Thats not the issue.  What makes it more galling is I served my time with two of the partners and considered them friends.  (dont ask) 

I know I could have hired a hotel room.  I did not want the revenue coming to my house so I asked if I could meet them in the accountants office.  Subsequently the revenue told me they were coming to my house anyway.  I ended up owing them 500 quid.  I was told that there investigation of me in the lead up to the audit and the month after the audit would have cost in the region of 10k.


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## 25euronote (27 Nov 2015)

T McGibney said:


> Relax, the issue of "false declarations" rarely arise in routine small sole trader audits. The emphasis, both in the Code of Practice for Revenue Audit and in real life situations, is on co-operation with the Inspector who completes the audit. Once you co-operate reasonably with the Inspector, and particularly as there are outside extenuating factors in your case, you should be fine in that regard.



Thanks.  These posts are actually putting a little clarity in my head.


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## Bronte (27 Nov 2015)

25euronote said:


> Thanks.  These posts are actually putting a little clarity in my head.



I'm glad you said that 25Euronote as you did to me by PM and the guys on here have been a great help to you.  I think you need to get this behind you now and I'd switch to a smaller accountancy practice.  Perhaps with one of the accountants on here once your mess is sorted.  I've hired a professional from here myself and it's been brilliant.


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## 25euronote (27 Nov 2015)

Bronte said:


> I didn't know one could have insurance for an audit.  I'd have gone to my solicitor if presented with a bill for €2200 if they did no work.  Surely the accountants bill must show something on it, what does it say?  It seems from your reply that it's for work on a revenue audit.  They are your accountants so they must have been dealing with revenue for you?
> 
> Also sounds like a big firm if it's got cubicles and senior partners etc.



Its a big enough firm.  There was a massive move to new premises with a complete refurb., just as the recession broke.  

I think thats where the fee was going.

Anyway when I get it sorted Ill be changing accountants.  Interestingly revenue are copying them on all correspondence, but they have yet to contact me other that to ask when I might be making a payment on my account.


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