# A fair deal nursing homes



## z104 (9 Oct 2008)

Can anybody tell me if you have a high dependancy parent in a private nursing if they will be entitled to the fair deal in nursing home care or will it only apply to new entrants after the bill is enacted?

i.e will people in a nursing home now have to continue to pay 700+ per week after a fair deal is enacted?


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## gipimann (10 Oct 2008)

[broken link removed] FAQ document from Dept of Health & Children may answer your question


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## z104 (10 Oct 2008)

Thanks Gipimann


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## petermac (12 Jun 2009)

Does anyone know as of today 12 June 09 when the " A Fair Deal" nursing home solution is coming in . I have been told September. Is that true does any know for definite?
Mni tnx in advance
Peter


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## z104 (17 Jun 2009)

Hi Peter, I have been told by a gov front bench minister that it's still on track for September 2009.

Hopefully this won't change.


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## Tentman (17 Jun 2009)

Dont take anything for granted. The Fair Deal scheme has the potential to be a major drain on the state's finances, so dont be surprised if there's a deferment.As posted above, my understanding is that its all systems go for Sept.


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## annet (28 Jun 2009)

The Bill will first have to go through the house of the oireachtas and the seanad - so guess its going to be delayed until our politicians come back off their hols for starters.  Reckon its also going to be an issue of within available resources - and given the consitutional issues around the home the council of state may well get involved and then if its challenged to the courts then there's the time it will take to bring a judicial review to the high and if appealed to the supreme court.  So, it wont be soon.


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## z104 (13 Jul 2009)

Phoned HSE today, They said the bill is passed. (haven't seen this on any newspaper though) No solid date from HSE yet.

No mention of it here either

[broken link removed]


I did find this though?

[broken link removed]

Signed into law on July 1st?


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## twofor1 (5 Oct 2009)

Mary Harney today announced a Fair Deal is to start on 27th October.

http://www.dohc.ie/press/releases/2009/20091005.html


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## Squonk (5 Oct 2009)

If I'm reading this correctly, a relative who is already in a nursing home for more than 3 years will not be forced to take out the 5% 'loan' (per annum to a max of 15%) on the value of the principal private residence: 

Page 15 of 
[broken link removed]


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## dewdrop (7 Oct 2009)

I saw one press report yesterday  saying people would pay 80% of their disposal income, 5% of value of non cash assets over 36K euro and up to 15% of the value of their homes following their death. My understanding that the latter 15% only arises if a person decides not to pay the 5% for the 3 years.


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## twofor1 (7 Oct 2009)

10 different examples of how it will work can be downloaded here,

http://www.dohc.ie/issues/fair_deal/fair_deal_examples.pdf


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## dewdrop (9 Oct 2009)

In reply to Squonk i thought that the loan called Nursing home loan and termed Ancillary State Support is an Optional step (page  3 of the Information booklet). It says on page 8 that the 5% may be deferred so that a person does not have to find themoney to pay when alive. Again they repeat it is an optional benefit.   Maybe i am overlooking some aspect?


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## dewdrop (13 Oct 2009)

Another aspect that confuses me is that income is defined, inter alia, dividends interest etc.  In a set of examples provided by the Dept at No.3 a person has 56k euro in savings but further in the example there is no mention of any income from this in calculating the 80%. When i phoned one of the offices i was told that interest and dividends are not taken into account nothwithstanding the definition of income given in their booklet. he said that this would have been lodged into the savings account which attracts a payment of 5%.


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## vienne86 (14 Oct 2009)

It appears that the process of going to court to become a care representative for someone unable to make their own application for this scheme is already in place.  Has anyone started down this road or has anyone heard anything about how long this process may take?


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## mf1 (14 Oct 2009)

vienne86 said:


> It appears that the process of going to court to become a care representative for someone unable to make their own application for this scheme is already in place.  Has anyone started down this road or has anyone heard anything about how long this process may take?



I'm dealing with an elderly aunt at the moment with dementia issues and I've looked at this in terms of becoming the care representative. I have formed the view  ( and there are complicating issues in the case) that it would be better and safer all round to have her made a Ward of Court and, thereafter, make the application to become her care representative with the full weight of a High Court Order behind me. 

I say this because I think unless the situation is very simple and, in honesty, I think most cases which will involve a care representative will be complicated by issues such as "what gives you the right", "who do you think you are", "the nerve of you" etc.,etc. that there may well be ructions down the line.

I will post back with my progress - which I expect to be painfully slow, unfortunately.

mf


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## Squonk (15 Oct 2009)

mf1....have you considered getting a power of attorney? It is cheaper and faster than the ward of court approach. If your aunt's dementia is not so severe or is intermittent this may be an option (because your aunt must sign over powers to you).


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## mf1 (15 Oct 2009)

I should have made it clear -I am a solicitor so I have worked through all the options. 
Power of Attorney is not an option. 

mf


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## vienne86 (15 Oct 2009)

Thank you for this mf1 - really useful.  I too am dealing with an elderly relative (parent) with advanced dementia, who has been in full time care for nearly 7 years.  Power of attorney would have been ideal, but was not possible.  Our family have paid for the nursing home during this time, and are therefore very interested in this scheme.  We are wondering exactly about the issues you have mentioned - for example, how would we get the right to call the shots on the parent's bank account etc..  We will continue to pursue this until we find out how it will work and will post anything that might be useful to users of this forum.


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## mf1 (15 Oct 2009)

vienne86 said:


> Thank you for this mf1 - really useful.  I too am dealing with an elderly relative (parent) with advanced dementia, who has been in full time care for nearly 7 years.  Power of attorney would have been ideal, but was not possible.  Our family have paid for the nursing home during this time, and are therefore very interested in this scheme.  We are wondering exactly about the issues you have mentioned - for example, how would we get the right to call the shots on the parent's bank account etc..  We will continue to pursue this until we find out how it will work and will post anything that might be useful to users of this forum.



OK - great - glad to have been able to assist - its such a stressful process. I have the most enormous sympathy for anyone dealing with these situations.

I think the big issue with the care rep thing is that you do not  have any access at all to the parent's money which is why I am going for the Ward of Court option. That itself is hugely stressful but it does mean that all monies belonging to the Ward are accessed and taken into the Ward of Courts office.


Like you, I will post back with anything useful. 

mf


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## vienne86 (18 Oct 2009)

We have made a few enquiries with the HSE about this.  If the patient has been in the nursing home for more than three years, and has been paying for their own care, the family home is out of the equation as regards assessing the assets.  If the remaining assets come to an amount of less than 36K the whole application is just for _State Support_, and NOT for Ancillary Support (i.e. the much publicised 'loan' from the state for the amount of 5% of the applicant's assets per year is not relevant).  

The reasoning seems to be that if you have paid for yourself for three years, you have in effect paid your share of your family home and should not be asked to pay it for another three years.  

If the application is only for _State Support_, it can be made by a family member on behalf of a patient with reduced capacity to make decisions, without having to go to court to become a care representative.

As regards the mechanisms for payment, the HSE will pay their share directly to the nursing home.  It is up to the patient and/or their family to figure out how to get the patient's share paid to the nursing home.

The only other thing that may interest people is that deeds of covenant made by family members for the patient are included in the patient's income - two of our family have covenants in favour of our parent.

The form is fairly straightforward and not too long.  We have more or less decided that we are going to go ahead and make an application - apparently the HSE have already received a lot of enquiries and some applications, so it may all take a while.  I will post again if anything of interest to people comes to light.


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