# Massive rent increase in 1 year



## Boogeyman (4 Mar 2008)

I live in a block of 3 bedroom flats which are all owned by the same management company. Recently I got a letter from a tenant who lives in the same block of flats letting people know that the rent on his place has gone from being 1800 per month to 2400 per month just this feb. Our lease is up in June and i'm expecting the same increase. He was complaining in his letter about the ridiculous increase and I have to agree with him, it is alot more than expected and effectively every person in my flat will have to pay 200 euros extra when our lease comes up for renewal. Is it right for the management company to raise the rent by this amount i.e do we have a leg to stand on in any way if we complain?


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## z106 (4 Mar 2008)

I believe that this is not allowed.
Although I could be mistaken.

I think that legally it can only be raised by a certain fair market amount.

I think it may be reasonable to argue that a 33% increase in a year is not in line with teh market.

Go to teh PRTB. It is their role to settl eany disputes between tenants and landlords.


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## Howitzer (4 Mar 2008)

Seconded.


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## beattie (4 Mar 2008)

Rents are dropping in many instances at the moment so I would recommend that you look elsewhere if you get the same treatment as the other flat. As other posters have alluded to there has been a huge increase in supply recently so I would advise that you have a look around


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## bankrupt (4 Mar 2008)

PRTB policy is that rents can only be raised in line with reasonable market rates.  As rents are dropping at the moment due to huge over supply it seems very unlikely that your apartment will meet this criteria.


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## steph1 (5 Mar 2008)

My god am I reading this correctly?  Thats over 550 a week for rent??  Thats madness.  A person would be better off with a mortgage at that rate.


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## Boogeyman (5 Mar 2008)

No its 600 per month each in rent currently and will be increasing to 800 each per month if the rent increase comes into play. Hence 1800 increasing to 2400 for the whole flat.


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## truthseeker (5 Mar 2008)

Camry said:


> Indeed!!
> 
> By my calculations, you could afford a mortgage of almost €100,000 for this and coul live here....
> 
> ...


 
care to post your calculations?


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## Boogeyman (5 Mar 2008)

Ok folks just to make it clearer:

3 People living in the flat
Currently we pay 600 each per month = 1800 in total per month.
Increase will mean we pay 800 each per month = 2400 in total per month.

I don't think I can make it any more straightforward than that..


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## MrMan (5 Mar 2008)

Could it be possible that the other guy is a disgruntled tenant that is causing trouble?


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## Bronte (6 Mar 2008)

Before your rent review is up check out other properties of equal quality to yours and if the rent is less then what the landlord proposes be prepared to move.  Forwarned is forearmed.  Also you might find the landlord does not increase your rent at all if you tell him you're moving.  Just to add I cannot see how an increase of more then 30% in justified when inflation is circa 5%.


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## Boogeyman (6 Mar 2008)

Thanks for the replies. The main thing is that they own the whole block of flats that we live in so they are pushing up the rent on all of them. From discussing with the tenant nearby I have found out that they have already put up the rent on a few places to 2400 and the tenants have just paid the new rate or if the flat is empty they are making new tenants pay this rate. So I think their side of the argument might be that properties in the recent locality are this price so you have to pay what is the norm nearby. We are trying to get a few tenants from other flats together to complain as a unit so hopefully this will make more of an impact.


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## Howitzer (6 Mar 2008)

Have you looked to see what similar properties in the same area, not run by the management company, are renting for? If they are significently less that the increased amount why don't you simply move?

The only body worth complaining to is the PRTB. Complaining to the Management Company but then staying put when they ignore you, which appears to be the case with the other tenants, is next to useless.


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## Afuera (6 Mar 2008)

The residential tenancy act states that the rent can not be set above the market rate so I get the feeling that the owner is trying to manipulate the market rate to exploit more from the tenants here. The way to stop them carrying through with these crazy hikes is to lodge a complaint to the PRTB and provide evidence that this is not the market rate for the surrounding area.



Boogeyman said:


> From discussing with the tenant nearby I have found out that they have already put up the rent on a few places to 2400 and the tenants have just paid the new rate or if the flat is empty they are making new tenants pay this rate.


It would be better if nobody accepted the hike but just because one or two individuals accept it does not automatically make it the market rate for the area. If there are empty properties that are not being rented at this rate then it undermines the owners claim that it is actually the market rate.



Boogeyman said:


> So I think their side of the argument might be that properties in the recent locality are this price so you have to pay what is the norm nearby.


Surely the same people do not own all of the apartments in the area though? If there are apartments within 5 minutes of you that have a similar specification, the rents that those are commanding would need to be taken into consideration when determining the areas "market rate" as well. If you can find ads on daft for property in the area that is lower than yours then print them out to support your case. If you can find other tenants in the area who are willing to tell you what they are paying in rent, and maybe provide documentary evidence to the same, then this could be useful too.



Boogeyman said:


> We are trying to get a few tenants from other flats together to complain as a unit so hopefully this will make more of an impact.


I think you should all make individual claims to the PRTB. It would be more effective if the owner of these aparments has 100 different claims against him.

I think you have a very strong leg to stand on here in complaining about such a large hike. The key is to come up with a figure that reflects the real market rate in the area and justifying it. Once you have a complaint in to the PRTB, the rent can not be touched until a resolution is found.

Out of interest, which area in Dublin is the apartment block?


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## Brendan Burgess (6 Mar 2008)

> Just to add I cannot see how an increase of more then 30% in justified when inflation is circa 5%.


 
I think you are all missing the point. It's not the increase that matters, but what the current market rent is. If the current rent of €1800 is well below the market rate, then the increase is understandable. 

The only issue is what the market rate for these apartments should be. If the landlord can rent them out at €2,400, then that is what he should be charging.  Landlords don't like losing good tenants. If you have looked after the place and paid your rent on time, tell him that it is too high and that you will move unless he reduces  the rate. 

Brendan


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## Purple (6 Mar 2008)

Brendan said:


> I think you are all missing the point. It's not the increase that matters, but what the current market rent is. If the current rent of €1800 is well below the market rate, then the increase is understandable.
> 
> The only issue is what the market rate for these apartments should be. If the landlord can rent them out at €2,400, then that is what he should be charging.  Landlords don't like losing good tenants. If you have looked after the place and paid your rent on time, tell him that it is too high and that you will move unless he reduces  the rate.
> 
> Brendan


Exactly. It may be the case that you have all been paying well below the market rate for the last few years. Have you done a Daft.ie search for your area? If not do one and see what the average rental is.


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## Afuera (6 Mar 2008)

Camry said:


> Again, your best bet is to walk.


Hardly a hassle free route to take for the OP and all involved though is it?

If the owner is attempting to set the rents above the market rate, the law is on their side, so if that is the case, I suggest they lodge a complaint with the PRTB first to stop the rental increases going through and then let the owners try and explain to the PRTB where they got their calculations for the current going rate.

If the market rate for this area is actually at this level, then they should move out as it is a rediculous price to pay for a room in a shared apartment, especially when there is so much supply out there.


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## Boogeyman (6 Mar 2008)

The flat is quite close to the city centre and is roughly about 4 or 5 years old from what I gather. It is an ideal location and a decent flat so would prefer not to move out to be honest. I have actually looked at daft in the last couple of days and there is a room going in my block for around the 650 figure. There is also a whole flat available and it is at the new rate of 2400. 

Thanks again for all the advice - I think the best approach to take is to liase with the other tenant and lodge a complaint with PRTB. If there is some success in reducing the new rental increase come summer time I will stay, otherwise I will be looking elsewhere.


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## Satanta (6 Mar 2008)

Boogeyman said:


> I have actually looked at daft in the last couple of days and there is a room going in my block for around the 650 figure. There is also a whole flat available and it is at the new rate of 2400.


Were there any other properties in the general area (a five or ten minute walk) of a similiar quality to which you could compare the prices? 

In order to make a complaint to the PRTB, you need to show that the increase is above the market rate. To date, there is nothing (other than a general knowledge of Dublin rental costs) to suggest/prove it's above the market rate.


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## Afuera (6 Mar 2008)

Satanta said:


> To date, there is nothing (other than a general knowledge of Dublin rental costs) to suggest/prove it's above the market rate.


The OP just said that there are rooms available in the same block for EUR 650 p/m. The owners are trying to charge EUR 800.


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## Satanta (6 Mar 2008)

Afuera said:


> The OP just said that there are rooms available in the same block for EUR 650 p/m. The owners are trying to charge EUR 800.


For arguments sake, these rooms are potentially being sublet at the old rate. When they come up for renewal, the rate may jump to the new price (which the OP has said that any of the full apartments up for renewal are going at) of €800p/m. 

A (couple of) room(s) at €650p/m isn't enough to establish a market rate. They need to provide as much information as possible if they want to put forward a detailed and robust case. 

(It's information which should easily be attained [and which I presume will assist the OPs case hence the (repeated) suggestion to attain it])


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## Afuera (6 Mar 2008)

Satanta said:


> For arguments sake, these rooms are potentially being sublet at the old rate. When they come up for renewal, the rate may jump to the new price (which the OP has said that any of the full apartments up for renewal are going at) of €800p/m.


The market rate for rent is defined as the price that new tenants can obtain a similarily specced property in the same area. If a new tenant is able to rent one today for EUR 650, by definition those paying EUR 800 are paying above market rate.

The market rate and the rate that the owners pick off the top of their head are not one and the same.


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## Satanta (6 Mar 2008)

Afuera said:


> The market rate and the rate that the owners pick off the top of their head are not one and the same.


And one room at a lower price does not prove that all other prices are above the market rate.

I fully agree that the OP (*if* the renewel is at €2400) is (probably) [none of us know the exact details of the property so can't comment either way with authority] being charged well above the going rate. I'm not disputing that. I'm suggesting they provide the information to prove it. One room at a lower price is not sufficient information to prove anything.


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## Afuera (6 Mar 2008)

Satanta said:


> And one room at a lower price does not prove that all other prices are above the market rate.


If there are cheaper rooms out there it proves that a landlord is willing to accept that price, and if taken up by a tenant proves that there are willing tenants at that price. This is the open market rate.



Satanta said:


> I'm suggesting they provide the information to prove it.


Fair enough, the OP should do their homework to try and work out what the market rate is and see if they are being wronged. Ultimately though it is the PRTBs job to determine the open market rate and take action against the landlord if they are exceeding it.

Based on the info the OP has provided here I suspect they would have a very strong case. It only costs EUR 25 to place the complaint with the PRTB, and has the added bonus of preventing the rent being increased until the dispute is resolved.


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## shanegl (6 Mar 2008)

> It only costs EUR 25 to place the complaint with the PRTB, and *has the added bonus of preventing the rent being increased until the dispute is resolved.*


 
This is the key point here, and is the reason I would submit a complaint if in the same position. If anything, it gives you some breathing room to consider your options further.


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## Brendan Burgess (6 Mar 2008)

Camry said:




> If what the OP says is true the owner is using his position (sole LL) to extract monopoly rents.
> 
> Again, your best bet is to walk. The rental market is swimming with stock at present.



How can any landlord in Dublin have a monopoly? It's a very big market with lots of suppliers.


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## TrueBlue (6 Mar 2008)

This does seem quite high for flats. Do you actually mean apartments? Reasonably new, etc?

Whereabouts is the property?


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## Bronte (7 Mar 2008)

Everybody seems to think the PRTB will be able to solve this. Is it actually the case that the PRTB have the power to stop the landlord increasing the rent by as much as he wants?  Anyone know how they decide what is the market rent.  Do they use a one mile radius, post code, distance from city centre?

OP for comparison of other apartments can you give us a rough estimate of the size of the apartments, number of bathrooms, distance from city centre etc so it's easier to see it it's a swish grandiose apartment in Ballsbridge or a small dingy bed-sit type and then one can compare prices using Daft.


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## mercman (7 Mar 2008)

The Op has not mentioned the location of the apartments. It may be in the centre of Dublin or a high value area. As the owners own the entire block, they can let them at whatever price they wish. It's called Supply and Demand, regardless of what the wretched PRTB say.


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## bankrupt (7 Mar 2008)

Bronte said:


> Everybody seems to think the PRTB will be able to solve this. Is it actually the case that the PRTB have the power to stop the landlord increasing the rent by as much as he wants?



Yes, the PRTB do have this power.



> Anyone know how they decide what is the market rent.  Do they use a one mile radius, post code, distance from city centre?



There's the rub, I have not found anything other than a vague reference to "open market rates."


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## bankrupt (7 Mar 2008)

mercman said:


> The Op has not mentioned the location of the apartments. It may be in the centre of Dublin or a high value area. As the owners own the entire block, they can let them at whatever price they wish. It's called Supply and Demand, regardless of what the wretched PRTB say.



Obviously the landlord is free to attempt to get whatever rates he wants/can from new tenants.  He is *not *free to extort whatever rents he chooses from existing tenants.


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## Bronte (7 Mar 2008)

Ok the PRTB have the power. Different question, has anyone an example of where the PRTB was able to keep the rent down?

Bankrupt are you saying that 'open market rates' is waffle.  A figure that is impossible to quantify?  If that's the case they may have the 'power' but it isn't up to much and would be of no help to the OP. 

Also conversely do the PRTB have to power to reduce rents if the market for rents is decreasing?


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## bankrupt (7 Mar 2008)

There's a good discussion of rent reviews in this document from page 69 on.

It states that the PRTB will use its register of rents to determine the open market rate.


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## bankrupt (7 Mar 2008)

Bronte said:


> Ok the PRTB have the power. Different question, has anyone an example of where the PRTB was able to keep the rent down?



Here's one:

[broken link removed]

and a slightly clearer example: [broken link removed]



> Bankrupt are you saying that 'open market rates' is waffle.  A figure that is impossible to quantify?  If that's the case they may have the 'power' but it isn't up to much and would be of no help to the OP.



Difficult or vague perhaps but hardly "impossible."  



> Also conversely do the PRTB have to power to reduce rents if the market for rents is decreasing?



If you mean, can the PRTB set rents prior to the start of a tenancy then the answer is no.


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## Afuera (7 Mar 2008)

bankrupt said:


> There's a good discussion of rent reviews in this document from page 69 on.


That is an interesting link.

The following paragraph on page 70 in particular seems quite surprising:


> Rents may be reviewed upwards or downwards. An
> example serves to illustrate the significance of this point. Assume
> that the parties agree the rent for a particular dwelling. The tenant
> proceeds to sign a tenancy agreement, takes up possession and
> ...


 
Am I reading this correctly, that landlords do not even have to right to try and charge exhorborant rents to new tenants either? Even if the tenant previously agrees to pay that price? What is to stop all tenants from putting in a dispute with the PRTB immediately after they start renting a place, and effectively stop the market price from ever being increased?

If I am reading it correctly that paragraph would also seem to suggest that even the tenants in the OPs block that agreed to the new rent could put in a dispute with the PRTB stating that it is not at the market rate.


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## Bronte (7 Mar 2008)

Bankrupt, the first case you put in isn't clear and the second one while it holds the rent for that particular tenant, it seems the tenant was evicted anyway so the landlord can get a new tenant at whatever rent the market will take it.  

In relation to rent decreases, if after a year the landlord comes to a rent review can he be forced to reduce the rent if the market has decreased.  But it seems now you can get a tenant in and immediately the tenant can complain to the PRTB that the rent is too high.  

I don't see how the PRTB can use their database to decide on what rents should be.  You have to make allowance for quality & size of the property also.  A graded structure like you have for hotels perhaps.


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## bankrupt (7 Mar 2008)

Afuera said:


> Am I reading this correctly, that landlords do not even have to right to try and charge exhorborant rents to new tenants either? Even if the tenant previously agrees to pay that price?



Not quite, the tenant has the right to dispute the rent once they are in a part 4 tenancy (i.e. after 6 months).  I presume this will take precedence over any lease agreement.



> What is to stop all tenants from putting in a dispute with the PRTB immediately after they start renting a place, and effectively stop the market price from ever being increased?



Nothing at all it seems.



> If I am reading it correctly that paragraph would also seem to suggest that even the tenants in the OPs block that agreed to the new rent could put in a dispute with the PRTB stating that it is not at the market rate.



Good point, the OPs' neighbours should lodge disputes immediately (if they believe the increase is above the market rate of course!).  It is not clear whether they would be entitled to continue to pay rent at the old rate until the dispute is decided, I imagine not.


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## bankrupt (7 Mar 2008)

Bronte said:


> Bankrupt, the first case you put in isn't clear and the second one while it holds the rent for that particular tenant, it seems the tenant was evicted anyway so the landlord can get a new tenant at whatever rent the market will take it.



The second case quite clearly states that a rent increase was disallowed, whether or not the tenant was evicted is not clear (i.e. they may have left of their own volition).  These were only two examples that I found in a quick scan of the PRTB disputes page, I imagine there are others.  The point is that the PRTB can and do exercise their power to prevent excessive rent increases.



> In relation to rent decreases, if after a year the landlord comes to a rent review can he be forced to reduce the rent if the market has decreased.  But it seems now you can get a tenant in and immediately the tenant can complain to the PRTB that the rent is too high.



The tenant would have to be renting for 6 months before disputing but it does seem to be the case that they can act as you describe.  



> I don't see how the PRTB can use their database to decide on what rents should be.  You have to make allowance for quality & size of the property also.  A graded structure like you have for hotels perhaps.



The PRTB claim to record such qualitative information (in their private database) so should be able to make a reasonable determination based on a like with like comparison.


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## Bronte (10 Mar 2008)

The  only thing the PRTB can judge one property versus another is street and size.  They cannot tell the quality of the property so it would be impossible to compare like with like.


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## bankrupt (10 Mar 2008)

Bronte said:


> The  only thing the PRTB can judge one property versus another is street and size.  They cannot tell the quality of the property so it would be impossible to compare like with like.



The PRTB records the rent paid, the floor size, the type of property (flat, apartment, house, half house etc), the location, number of bed spaces, number of bedrooms and number of occupants.  It would be straightforward to use this information (and a little common sense) to make a reasonable comparison of rents, certainly not impossible.


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