# Court orders demolition of family home



## mathepac (29 Jun 2010)

Is this a first?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0629/murray.html


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## Hoagy (29 Jun 2010)

There was one up the road from us about ten years ago, Wicklow CC made them demolish and clear the site.
They stalled for a year or two but in the end the courts threatened them with jail.

I guess people don't believe it'll go that far, we seem to have a retention culture.

It's extraordinary that the CC didn't intervene in the present case before the house was finished.


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## Ash 22 (29 Jun 2010)

It sounds terrible for them having to do this but why would somebody build a house without planning permission in the first place. They must have known there would be consequences. Also it seems as though they went double the size of what was turned down already so they really took things into their own hands. I really feel sorry for them and wonder would a fine not be better than making them knock it now.


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## JP1234 (29 Jun 2010)

I think I heard of something like this before too.

Have to say I have no sympathy for them at all. They broke the law and acted, imo, with arrogance and stupidity in building a house twice the size after being refused by the council and on appeal by An Bord Pleanala.


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## Caveat (29 Jun 2010)

JP1234 said:


> Have to say I have no sympathy for them at all. They broke the law and acted, imo, with arrogance and stupidity in building a house twice the size after being refused by the council and on appeal by An Bord Pleanala.



+1

Meanwhile the rest of us eejits have to endlessly tick boxes and cross Ts just to make minor changes.


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## z104 (29 Jun 2010)

Nice house.

I wonder why it was refused permission in the first place?

If refused for a really great reason and for the greater good then tough but if refused for someting trivial or minor enough in the grand scheme of things then they should be allowed to keep it.

The law has been known to be an ass on occasion.


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## Superman (30 Jun 2010)

Niallers said:


> Nice house.
> 
> I wonder why it was refused permission in the first place?
> 
> ...


If it had been refused for a minor reason, then that reason could be resolved by the applicant (e.g. moving the entrance there, getting rid of that window there etc.) or could be dealt with by way of Permission for Retention.
The fact that this ended up in court indicates that the planning issue with the house is so significant that it could not be resolved by seeking Retention Permission.


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## MrMan (30 Jun 2010)

Superman said:


> If it had been refused for a minor reason, then that reason could be resolved by the applicant (e.g. moving the entrance there, getting rid of that window there etc.) or could be dealt with by way of Permission for Retention.
> The fact that this ended up in court indicates that the planning issue with the house is so significant that it could not be resolved by seeking Retention Permission.



You would be surprised at just how insignificant some planning issues are, but some planners can get like a dog with a bone and you have to tip toe around them so as not to end any chance of ever getting permission.
I don't agree with people just firing ahead and building, but the inconsistency in the planning offices has to be addressed at some time.


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## truthseeker (30 Jun 2010)

MrMan said:


> You would be surprised at just how insignificant some planning issues are, but some planners can get like a dog with a bone and you have to tip toe around them so as not to end any chance of ever getting permission.
> I don't agree with people just firing ahead and building, but the inconsistency in the planning offices has to be addressed at some time.


 
Couldnt agree more. I know numerous people who have had planning refused on silly reasons, and were later able to get approval due to a change in staff, an intervention by a politician, or just a huge amount of pestering.


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## Graham_07 (30 Jun 2010)

"The 6,229sq.ft house (588sq.m) is more than twice the size of a previous planning application submitted by the couple for which permission was refused."

This is some three times the size of an average 4 bed detached  dwelling. They hardly made a mistake building it that size. Arrogance indeed.


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## VOR (30 Jun 2010)

Ash 22 said:


> It sounds terrible for them having to do this but why would somebody build a house without planning permission in the first place. They must have known there would be consequences. Also it seems as though they went double the size of what was turned down already so they really took things into their own hands. I really feel sorry for them and wonder would a fine not be better than making them knock it now.



I don't. They got refused for planning. They then built a house twice the size of the initial refusal. 
That house must have cost at least €600K to build. Seeing as the couple did not have planning permission I cannot see how they got a mortgage. So, on that basis, that's €650K in cash they had lying about.  Did they think that they didn't need to conform to the rules like the rest of us who have to borrow from the bank and satisfy the planners conditions?


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## z104 (30 Jun 2010)

Whether they had to borrow for it or not is neither here nor there.


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## Graham_07 (30 Jun 2010)

Niallers said:


> Whether they had to borrow for it or not is neither here nor there.



It is insofar as if it was being built on borrowed money, it is unlikely that it would have been built at all given lenders' not unreasonable requirement, that one have planning permission.


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## Ciaraella (30 Jun 2010)

JP1234 said:


> I think I heard of something like this before too.
> 
> Have to say I have no sympathy for them at all. They broke the law and acted, imo, with arrogance and stupidity in building a house twice the size after being refused by the council and on appeal by An Bord Pleanala.


 

+ 1, blatant disregard for the rules that the rest of us have to follow,
what made them think that they were special and could do as they liked?
Whether the law/planning regulations are right or wrong they are the law of the land and people who brazenly ignore it should be punished.


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## Purple (30 Jun 2010)

VOR said:


> I don't. They got refused for planning. They then built a house twice the size of the initial refusal.
> That house must have cost at least €600K to build. Seeing as the couple did not have planning permission I cannot see how they got a mortgage. So, on that basis, that's €650K in cash they had lying about.  Did they think that they didn't need to conform to the rules like the rest of us who have to borrow from the bank and satisfy the planners conditions?



That smacks of jealousy and begrudgery. I don't have much sympathy but their financial status should not be reason to gloat.


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## VOR (30 Jun 2010)

Fair point Purple, and Niallers too. When reading it back it does smack of both. I never intended to gloat. 

My point is that if they were like the rest of us and had to get a mortgage then this would never have reached this unfortunate end as a bank would have put a stop to the illegal act a long time ago.


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## Purple (30 Jun 2010)

VOR said:


> Fair point Purple, and Niallers too. When reading it back it does smack of both. I never intended to gloat.
> 
> 
> My point is that if they were like the rest of us and had to get a mortgage then this would never have reached this unfortunate end as a bank would have put a stop to the illegal act a long time ago.



Fair play to you for that, there's not many people that accept criticism.

I'm sure that there are others on this site who have considerable amounts of cash in the bank (I wish I was one of them!). It's the "the rst of us" bit that makes it sound bad.


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## VOR (30 Jun 2010)

Purple said:


> It's the "the rst of us" bit that makes it sound bad.



I'm not changing that.


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## ney001 (30 Jun 2010)

truthseeker said:


> Couldnt agree more. I know numerous people who have had planning refused on silly reasons, and were later able to get approval due to a change in staff, an intervention by a politician, or just a huge amount of pestering.



+1 So many friends have been put through constant rejection for years as a result of some ass in the planning office.  A friend finished house last year following three years of nonsense with planning office.  In the end council insisted on the exact type of hedging allowed, fencing etc all of which she complied with.  Council even insisted that she had a particular hardwood in windows i.e no pvc so she spent a lot of money getting these particular windows.  Low and behold since then, four houses in her immediate environs have been built, all of which have pvc windows, no exceptions and no problems with planning.  I would love somebody to explain why this is?  

The house the guys in Navan built was ridiculous in that it was far too big, if they were going ahead without planning then they should have built something akin to the original plans or smaller, that said I completely understand the frustration involved in trying to get through to these people and I can understand why enough was enough!


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## Firefly (30 Jun 2010)

"It's all about who you know" applies to planning permission more than anything else IMO. The process should be a lot more transparent and it shouldn't take a change in staff or a word with a local politician to get approval. Is it any wonder we have had such bad planning decisions in the recent past?


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## VOR (30 Jun 2010)

Firefly said:


> The process should be a lot more transparent and it shouldn't take a change in staff or a word with a local politician to get approval.



I met a councillor who told me that he had sites that he wanted to get planning on but he knew the planner would not go for it. He said he was holding off for two years as he knew she was "moving on" after that and was sure he'd get planning then. Wink, wink, nudge, nudge.

I won't say what party it was but it was not FF. I would guess FF don't wait for the planner to move!


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## Slash (1 Jul 2010)

Firefly said:


> "It's all about who you know" applies to planning permission more than anything else IMO. The process should be a lot more transparent and it shouldn't take a change in staff or a word with a local politician to get approval. Is it any wonder we have had such bad planning decisions in the recent past?



Good heavens, surely you're not suggesting there is corruption in the planning process! That is a scurillous remark, Deputy! I demand that the Deputy withdraw that remark, Ceann Comhairle!!

And for someone else to imply that if there is corruption, then it is assumed to be from FF. Well, I am so indignant, I'll have to go lie down (in my holiday home mansion in West Cork!!).


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## Complainer (1 Jul 2010)

VOR said:


> I don't. They got refused for planning. They then built a house twice the size of the initial refusal.
> That house must have cost at least €600K to build. Seeing as the couple did not have planning permission I cannot see how they got a mortgage. So, on that basis, that's €650K in cash they had lying about.  Did they think that they didn't need to conform to the rules like the rest of us who have to borrow from the bank and satisfy the planners conditions?


I wonder if anyone from Revenue is cross-checking the plumber's tax returns as we speak?


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## VOR (1 Jul 2010)

Complainer said:


> I wonder if anyone from Revenue is cross-checking the plumber's tax returns as we speak?



I hadn't thought of that at first but it was said to me last night over dinner. He might be asked to cough up a list of people who worked on the house also. Yikes.   Is being part of meitheal a defence?

It was also said to me that maybe he did have a mortgage and perhaps the bank did not cross the t's etc. etc. Surely not? I mean our banks have a long tradition of ensuring planning is in place before they hand out money to any property boom merchant who walks through the door....oh!!!


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## NOAH (3 Jul 2010)

The bit I liked was "  We store animal food and machinery there" I imagined a combine harvester in the Kitchen.

great stuff.  Will keep a careful eye out in 2 years time.

noah


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## Mpsox (5 Jul 2010)

Personnaly, I've had bad experiences with ABP. They went and rejected 2 decisions by the local council and the recomendation of their own planner by granting our old neighbours permission to build a monstrosity and left us with no option but to sell. (Eves of neighbours new build would be overhanging our boundry wall as an example of the nature of their decision). Hence I have some sympathy for the couple in question given that planning in Ireland is a lottery. 

Having said that, did they really need a mansion the size of what they built? As for mortgage approval, given the way the banks were throwing money at people and given some of the recent reporting of commercial loans being granted with virtually no checks being done (or at best, half done), is it any surprise that they may have got a mortgage


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## elefantfresh (5 Jul 2010)

I don't get what the big problem is. I understand that it can be a nightmare regarding planning in this country but these people were told no, they then went and did quite the opposite. Of course they should be forced to pull it down.


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## ludermor (6 Jul 2010)

I think the title of this thread is misleading and should be 'Court orders demolition of illegally built structure which happens to house an idiot who shows complete comtempt of the planning process but thought he could get away with it, and his family'


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## DB74 (6 Jul 2010)

ludermor said:


> I think the title of this thread is misleading and should be 'Court orders demolition of illegally built structure which happens to house an idiot who shows complete comtempt of the planning process but thought he could get away with it, and his family'


 
Thank God you're not a mod!


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