# New ESB Meters being installed by KN Group.



## Odea (5 Jun 2020)

The ESB are upgrading their meters in my area. They are using a company called KN Group to install these new meters.

I received a couple of letters from them and then a phone call to say that they would like to call to my home and replace meter. They would need to turn off our electricity for about 45 minutes to do the work. I am not sure if they can disconnect our electricity from outside our house where the meter box is located or if they need to call in to our home and switch it off from our internal fuse box?

Anyhow they phoned me and I said that I was not ready to have this work done. Three days later I had another call asking me if I wanted the job done. I declined.

Now we have a pretty persistent person call to our door and ring and ring our bell from the KN Group.

I am happy with my existing meter. I read some articles last year where people who got these new meters found that their electricity bill increased after they were installed.

Have you had this job done and are you happy with the result?


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## Leo (5 Jun 2020)

Odea said:


> I am happy with my existing meter. I read some articles last year where people who got these new meters found that their electricity bill increased after they were installed.



Anyone who feels their meter isn't accurate should contact the NSAI. The new smart meters are approved and have been tested and proven to be accurate. 

These meters are being rolled out nationwide with KN contracted to carry out the works.


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## mathepac (5 Jun 2020)

This is the company contracted to do work for the telecomms companies. Because they do "line-work" for eircom, they are the goto installers for indoor work as well.

The existing analogue meters were also tested, approved and calibrated as accurate when they were installed. Has anyone ever heard of the existing meters being recalibrated? Presumably, like all mechanical, electro-mechanical devices there will be subject to wear over time.


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## PaddyBloggit (5 Jun 2020)

I had mine replaced by the KN group. They don't need to enter your home. They disconnect within the box.

The ESB are moving to smart meters so I don't think you'll have a choice about whether you want it or not.


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## mathepac (5 Jun 2020)

Some older meters are installed in the homes rather than in the plastic boxes outside.


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## Itchy (5 Jun 2020)

Odea said:


> I am happy with my existing meter. I read some articles last year where people who got these new meters found that their electricity bill increased after they were installed.
> 
> Have you had this job done and are you happy with the result?



ESB have an FAQ on their website about the programme. 

Have you a link to any of these articles?


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## Protocol (5 Jun 2020)

Odea said:


> I am happy with my existing meter. I read some articles last year where people who got these new meters found that their electricity bill increased after they were installed.
> 
> Have you had this job done and are you happy with the result?



In contrast to you, I am looking forward to smart meters, which are being installed nationwide into every house.

They will allow more sophisticated pricing, e.g. cheaper off-peak rates.


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## mathepac (5 Jun 2020)

Itchy said:


> ESB have an FAQ on their website about the programme.


@protocal I'm surprised to see you buying into the unsubstantiated claims, aka propaganda, on that ESB site. There is not one single real-world example quantifying the claimed savings or supposed advantages. There is no FAQ, merely justification and defence of the technology used.

Has anyone costed the replacement programme? New meters purchased, new meters installed (transport costs including diesel and labour costs), disposal of old meters? Has anyone looked at alternative proposals? If I install one, will I save €50/€100/€200 per year or per bill?

The installation of "smart meters", who thinks up these names? in the UK has been an unmitigated disaster, with erroneous bills measured in the thousands of pounds for certain customers.  And the programme cost a lot more than the original guesstimates


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## Protocol (5 Jun 2020)

I did not read the ESB material.

I presume that smart meters will allow differentiated pricing.

So we can better match demand and supply.


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## Odea (6 Jun 2020)

Not so smart: bad meter installations leave customers in debt and in the dark
					

Consumers are left footing the bill when a much-vaunted new technology goes wrong




					www.theguardian.com
				












						One in three homes suffering with smart meter problems as energy firms slammed for holding back cheapest tariffs
					

ONE in three households report problems with their smart meter but those who don’t want one are paying hundreds more every year for their energy bills. That’s according to new research …




					www.thesun.co.uk
				












						More than two million smart meters in the UK do not work, research suggests
					

More than two million smart meters in the UK are not working, new research suggests, as energy customers continue to feel pressured into having them installed.




					www.telegraph.co.uk
				




These are just a few of the articles that I dug up on smart meters in the UK.  

Have many been installed in Ireland yet and had there been any feedback from those who have had them installed?

I understand that it is not mandatory to have them installed?


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## SoylentGreen (6 Jun 2020)

Odea said:


> Now we have a pretty persistent person call to our door and ring and ring our bell from the KN Group



It looks as if these guys are putting pressure on people to install immediately.  My understanding is that they are not mandatory at the moment.
In view of the feedback from UK customers I would like to hear a bit more debate on them rather than accept them blindly.


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## Zenith63 (6 Jun 2020)

Also looking forward to getting a smart meter in, to be able to see live usage, get away from the estimated bill nonsense, ability to access new tariffs, pushing people to use some of the wind energy the country wastes many nights etc.



> Smart Energy GB’s Smart Energy Outlook research found that 84 percent of customers are pleased with the way the meters are operating, with energy efficiency being cited as one of the major themes of the report. The research also found that 79 percent of customers were encouraged to take steps towards reducing their energy use after having a smart meter fitted.





> Frost & Sullivan research analyst Neha Vikash: “Smart meters are required for integration of renewable energy. Europe is focused on meeting the 20-20-20 targets, which is a necessary driver for the increase in renewable energy and the third energy directive targets 80 percent smart meter penetration in the residential sector by 2020.”


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## mathepac (6 Jun 2020)

Zenith63 said:


> Also looking forward to getting a smart meter in, to be able to see live usage, get away from the estimated bill nonsense, ability to access new tariffs pushing people to use some of the wind energy the country wastes many nights etc.


You don't need a smart meter to do any of this. 99% of the so-called benefits are achievable with the existing technology.

Who do you think will pay the installation costs for the new meters? The obvious answer, consumers.

How will the energy companies recoup those undeclared costs? The obvious answer, by raising energy prices.

Who makes money from this? The obvious answers, the installation companies, the meter producers and sellers, the waste disposal companies, the suppliers/maintainers of the 2G network required for so-called smart-metering.


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## Zenith63 (6 Jun 2020)

mathepac said:


> 99% of the so-called benefits are achievable with the existing technology.


Can you elaborate?


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## Drakon (6 Jun 2020)

I’ve know someone that knows someone and her second-cousin once removed washes dishes in the canteen of the company where the smart metres are made. 
They (the dishwasher is a gENDer campaigner) said these meters cause the coronavirus.


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## jpd (6 Jun 2020)

No, everyone, and his dog, knows that coronavirus is caused by 5G


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## fidelcastro (7 Jun 2020)

jpd said:


> No, everyone, and his dog, knows that coronavirus is caused by 5G


That's it solved so.!


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## mathepac (7 Jun 2020)

Protocol said:


> I did not read the ESB material.
> 
> I presume that smart meters will allow differentiated pricing.
> 
> So we can better match demand and supply.


Therefore you have no idea about the supposed benefits. We have demand-based differential pricing right now. ESB networks needs consumer "smart-meters" to measure demand across the network? If that makes the new meters smart, what does that make the current network-level measurements?

To avoid estimated bills, keep tour consumption readings up-to-date with your energy supplier. To use greener energy, choose a supplier who sells energy not derived from renewables. 99% of the supposed benefits right there.


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## Protocol (8 Jun 2020)

I pay the same unit rate, every hour of every day.

The only differential pricing AFAIK is installing a night meter to use with storage heaters in apartments.

So where is the differential pricing right now?


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## Drakon (8 Jun 2020)

It the suggestion that these meters will lead to an increase in prices?
What percentage of households in Ireland have their leccy supplied by ESB?
I assume that ESB Networks would not install these jimmied meters for the benefit of their sister company’s competitors?
Unless, of course, all the leccy providers have formed an illegal cartel to co-benefit from these overcharging meters?


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## Bronco Lane (8 Jun 2020)

Is my existing meter not good enough? Is that what the ESB are saying?


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## Drakon (8 Jun 2020)

It doesn’t have the smarts!


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## Odea (8 Jun 2020)

Odea said:


> The ESB are upgrading their meters in my area. They are using a company called KN Group to install these new meters.
> 
> I received a couple of letters from them and then a phone call to say that they would like to call to my home and replace meter. They would need to turn off our electricity for about 45 minutes to do the work. I am not sure if they can disconnect our electricity from outside our house where the meter box is located or if they need to call in to our home and switch it off from our internal fuse box?
> 
> ...



Following on from my above post I had yet another person call to my door today from the KN Group. He couldn't remember calling to my home last week. He had no record of it. He had no record of the phone calls that were made to me. He also stated that he was from the ESB when he wasn't. He got an earful because I thought that 4 contacts in less than two weeks was over the top, especially after I had told them that , for the moment I was not interested in having my meter changed.

Apparently they are starting the upgrades in the DunLaoghaire Rathdown area. I referred to the fact that there were reported problems in the UK when these were introduced. He said that we won't know for a few years how they will work here?


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## Leo (8 Jun 2020)

Odea said:


> for the moment I was not interested in having my meter changed.



It's not your meter though, it remains DSO property and they are entitled to replace it if they so choose. Failing to provide them access to repair or replace as they deem necessary entitles them to cut off your service.


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## Zenith63 (8 Jun 2020)

Odea said:


> Apparently they are starting the upgrades in the DunLaoghaire Rathdown area. I referred to the fact that there were reported problems in the UK when these were introduced. He said that we won't know for a few years how they will work here?


I'm not sure much more can be said on your query Odea.  From a bit of looking around it seems like you do (or did in the past) have the option to refuse a smartmeter if you want to do that - "_*Regarding right of refusal, I have been informed by the Commission for Energy Regulation that a customer that does not want an upgraded meter will be able to decline to have this new meter installed."*_  Minister for Communications, Climate Action & Environment, Denis Naughten, 2016

I've posted above some of the feedback from the UK smartmetering programme.  There will be issues in any technology and any rollout of this scale, so to see that the vast majority of people are happy is enough for me to suggest it is not an unmitigated disaster.

This article is also worth a read if you have a minute - https://www.rte.ie/brainstorm/2018/...city-meters-are-coming-so-what-can-we-expect/ - where you'll see the meters have been trialled in Ireland shown energy reductions and generally been successful.


I'd also caution that smartmetering is very much tied up in the conspiracy theory nonsense going around about 5G, so you need to treat what you read online with a strong dose of critical analysis at this point.


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## Itchy (8 Jun 2020)

Zenith63 said:


> I'd also caution that smartmetering is very much tied up in the conspiracy theory nonsense going around about 5G, so you need to treat what you read online with a strong dose of critical analysis at this point.



The smart meters are 2G though


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## fidelcastro (8 Jun 2020)

Itchy said:


> The smart meters are 2G though


I believe that despite this, the new meters are still being read manually.... rather than automatically....only in Hi tech Ireland eh?.

Something to do with unease from some quarters about the ability of utilities to know when a person is in or out.?

No such uneasiness from same Facebook/google/apple loving folk sharing their each and every detail to the US wall st. corporates rather than ESB networks  company.

Ah well...


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## Zenith63 (9 Jun 2020)

Itchy said:


> The smart meters are 2G though



Sorry I wasn't too clear in my wording, I meant that the same people pushing 5G conspiracies are also pushing smartmetering conspiracies, not for all the same reasons though.  I'm not really keen to link to the sites as it just perpetuates it, but these are Irish sites that appear at the top of Google results.  Some of the things you may be concerned about  with smart meters are apparently:



> Headaches, Insomnia, Fatigue, Tinnitus, Heart Palpitations, Irritability, Decreased Immune Function, Decreased Cognitive Function
> They can operate autonomously or as part of a wireless ‘mesh’ network with neighbouring Smart Meters and transmit information to the utility companies using biologically unfriendly bursts of microwave radiation, 24 hours/day.
> NOT HEALTHY: Acute health problems reported where smart meters are installed include heart palpitations, chest pain, inability to concentrate, feeling faint, headaches, dizziness, irritability, nosebleeds, nausea, sleep difficulties, tinnitus and auditory problems, “microwave hearing” (the hum).
> 
> ...


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## fidelcastro (9 Jun 2020)

"Your Private Data Sold" is a concern - found on a Google search engine - nice irony.   The Kremlin must be delighted with their work.
No mention of:
microwave ovens,
xray /mri scanners/
1G/2G/3G/4G mobile
/walkie-talkie/TV/radio "high frequency kHz"  - lets shut down RTE (252kHz/88-90MHz) / BBC

In that extensive list - thank goodness for our experts of  "dirty electricity". 

The lunatics are running the asylum.


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## Mrs Vimes (9 Jun 2020)

I wouldn't fancy my chances in a microwave and it has long been accepted that Xrays are harmful, that is why they are used sparingly and with protection - please do not include them in the list above.


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## Odea (10 Jun 2020)

I have always had a sensitivity to electrical noise. For some reason I can hear it. Wires on street etc.  Looked at a lovely house to buy but there was one of those ESB mini stations located beside it. The humming sound was very high to me.
I can hear a slight humming sound coming from our fuse box in the house but I can close a door and I cannot hear it.

I have even become used to my neighbours central heating sound reverberating through our walls (despite being detached houses).


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## Baby boomer (10 Jun 2020)

I had no idea this meter replacement was going on.  The alleged health effects are the usual conspiracy theory nonsense that can be ignored.  What would interest me is the financial effects.  (This is Askaboutmoney after all.)

So, let's assume the new meters are accurate and calibrated correctly.  CER should be looking after that.  Now, an existing meter is basically a tiny electric motor that turns a dial.  And it's turning that dial 24 hours a day for decades.  Over time it's not entirely impossible that the meter motor becomes a little bit less effective, the mechanism a little harder to turn and - hey presto - it's underreporting the energy used.

Is this a realistic scenario or am I completely off the mark?


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## PaddyBloggit (11 Jun 2020)

Baby boomer said:


> Is this a realistic scenario or am I completely off the mark?



I have the new meter installed and I do think my wattage usage has increased in bills since.


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## Drakon (11 Jun 2020)

PaddyBloggit said:


> I have the new meter installed and I do think my wattage usage has increased in bills since.


When was it installed. Had wattage increased between installation and 12th March (or 27th if you don’t have kids)?


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## seamless (11 Jun 2020)

Does the smart meter support feed-in tariffing ?


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## Zenith63 (11 Jun 2020)

seamless said:


> Does the smart meter support feed-in tariffing ?


Yes, though not a requirement for FIT necessarily.



mathepac said:


> Has anyone costed the replacement programme? New meters purchased, new meters installed (transport costs including diesel and labour costs), disposal of old meters? Has anyone looked at alternative proposals? If I install one, will I save €50/€100/€200 per year or per bill?


Looks like PwC were engaged to do a cost analysis during the decision phase, they came up with something around €16 per year saved on electricity and €18 on gas, but they comment that given the costs of rollout were a bit unknown at the time they recommended interpreting their findings as it basically being cost neutral.  That was obviously 5+ years ago and I'm sure things have changed, but to the question has anybody fully costed it, looked at alternative proposals, what savings we might see the answer is an entirely unsurprising yes.  https://www.thejournal.ie/smart-meters-2532282-Jan2016/


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## Leo (11 Jun 2020)

Baby boomer said:


> Over time it's not entirely impossible that the meter motor becomes a little bit less effective, the mechanism a little harder to turn and - hey presto - it's underreporting the energy used.



Inaccurate meters usually run a little on the low side alright, but studies suggest it's not a big issue.


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## fidelcastro (11 Jun 2020)

Mrs Vimes said:


> I wouldn't fancy my chances in a microwave and it has long been accepted that Xrays are harmful, that is why they are used sparingly and with protection - please do not include them in the list above.





Odea said:


> I have always had a sensitivity to electrical noise. For some reason I can hear it. Wires on street etc.  Looked at a lovely house to buy but there was one of those ESB mini stations located beside it. The humming sound was very high to me.
> I can hear a slight humming sound coming from our fuse box in the house but I can close a door and I cannot hear it.
> 
> I have even become used to my neighbours central heating sound reverberating through our walls (despite being detached houses).


yes mains 50Hz is well inside human ear  frequency range. Nothing special there, I hear humming especially in humid days. And what about it, yes the substations can be  sightly , I wouldnt sleep on top of  one though if I had a choice . I wouldn't like to live beside a traffic junction either. Big deal


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## fidelcastro (11 Jun 2020)

PaddyBloggit said:


> I have the new meter installed and I do think my wattage usage has increased in bills since.


The meters use integrated solid state circuits. I can assure you the accuracy of these devices , for sale to Siemens, ABB and Schneiders world wide electrical engineers is far far superior over lifetime and temperature than any spinning mechanical dial installed in 1970s.
Put it this way would Auginish Alumina pay 1% more for their electricity , if they knew the devices were not accurate compared to a spinning dial


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## fidelcastro (12 Jun 2020)

Mrs Vimes said:


> I wouldn't fancy my chances in a microwave and it has long been accepted that Xrays are harmful, that is why they are used sparingly and with protection - please do not include them in the list above.


Precisely.
But we employ these devices safely. The wattage and exposure of  X  Ray is much much smaller than you lying on the sofa surrounded by naturally occurring radiation viz radon. The wattage of the microwave is designed, tested and measured to deliver maximum power  via its magnetron to the oven, not the surrounding environment ie your kitchen.

X ray at the dentist s directed at your tooth, not your toe.


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## fidelcastro (12 Jun 2020)

Bronco Lane said:


> Is my existing meter not good enough? Is that what the ESB are saying?


No, its old inaccurate piece of historical metering of 20th century, belonging in a museum. Same as for the EIR POTS network.


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## roker (16 Jun 2020)

mathepac said:


> This is the company contracted to do work for the telecomms companies. Because they do "line-work" for eircom, they are the goto installers for indoor work as well.
> 
> The existing analogue meters were also tested, approved and calibrated as accurate when they were installed. Has anyone ever heard of the existing meters being recalibrated? Presumably, like all mechanical, electro-mechanical devices there will be subject to wear over time.


That also applies to water meters


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## fidelcastro (16 Jun 2020)

roker said:


> That also applies to water meters


You obviously need Electrical safety certification for ESB distribution work.
Installing a battery powered water meter is much, much simpler


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## Drakon (17 Jun 2020)

roker said:


> That also applies to water meters


Hopefully the new government will put these meters to the test by introducing water charges. 
After all, the last time FG were in a coalition, they introduced water charges. And the last time FF and the Greens were in power (together as it happens) they were in favour of water charges.


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## Cervelo (17 Jun 2020)

I was due to get our meter upgraded at the end of march but was cancelled due to covid
Rang ESB yesterday to enquire as to when the installation was going to happen hoping it would be over the next couple of weeks,
only to be told that they are only doing external meter upgrades at this stage and didn't know when internal were going to resume due to covid
I pointed out that my meter was in my garage but apparently that is considered (obviously) as internal and that they would contact me sometime in the future with regards to the upgrade
Personally I welcome the upgrade and don't expect anything other then more precise billing for my usage which is what I believe has happened when the gas meter was upgrade
My only disappointment at the moment is that I don't have a water meter and hope that the new government will resume installing meters to all properties with the view to charging for water sometime in the future


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## Redlad (18 Jun 2020)

I might be building a new porch and was going to get my meter moved outside so will i have a choice or will i have to have a smart meter


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## fidelcastro (18 Jun 2020)

R[I]e[/I]dlad said:


> I might be building a new porch and was going to get my meter moved outside so will i have a choice or will i have to have a smart meter


_Re : Have To _, you should be happy to move to 21st metering,  like rest of advanced world, with its higher accuracy metering,.


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## Drakon (3 Jul 2020)

An engineer from TDI installed a new meter in my house today. All very professional. Done in less than an hour, I was walking the dog at the time.


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## bleary (3 Oct 2020)

The door of my external meter has come off with the last wind. It's taped up at the moment. Do these new meters come with new boxes or doors. Trying to Google photos it's not clear does it replace the box entirely . I have to get some other electrical work done so if it is just going to be replaced in next few months I'll live with it. If not any idea how much to replace the box . This is the 3rd door and keeps coming off.


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## Early Riser (3 Oct 2020)

bleary said:


> The door of my external meter has come off with the last wind. It's taped up at the moment. Do these new meters come with new boxes or doors. Trying to Google photos it's not clear does it replace the box entirely . I have to get some other electrical work done so if it is just going to be replaced in next few months I'll live with it. If not any idea how much to replace the box . This is the 3rd door and keeps coming off.



If you call ESB networks (not Electric Ireland) you should be able to arrange a replacement door. They allow a free fix - only one per house AFAIK. However, this depends on the box/door. If it is not the standard one they may well not have it. I don't think they replace boxes, but not sure.


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## Zenith63 (3 Oct 2020)

Definitely will not be replacing all boxes as part of the smart meter rollout. Those doors are quite standard though, take the old one to a builders providers and they’ll sort you out I’d say!


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## Early Riser (3 Oct 2020)

The doors are not all standard, despite external appearances. The number and location of hinges vary. I had a difficuly getting a replacement for this reason. I don't know how common this might be.
ESB networks installed a new (standard) door but it doesn't fit very well . Does the job though. If calling ESB Networks, have your MPRN number to hand.


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## SparkRite (3 Oct 2020)

bleary said:


> Do these new meters come with new boxes or doors.





Zenith63 said:


> Definitely will not be replacing boxes as part of the smart meter rollout.



KN Circet ( and all others) *are* repairing/replacing any damaged ETU boxes as they install the smart meter.
Duty bound to, as last man there must leave the site fully compliant to all pertinent regulations .


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## bleary (3 Oct 2020)

Thanks for that. I've had 2 replacement doors so far and they just don't seem to fit so I think the whole box needs replacing. I heard smart meters being rolled out in area so might hold on it and see what happens


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## PM9999 (4 Oct 2020)

But in the UK, it seems that SSE have had a great idea about a new potential use for smart meters

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/09/19/critics-smart-meters-right-along2/

Food for thought for me.


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## newirishman (4 Oct 2020)

PM9999 said:


> But in the UK, it seems that SSE have had a great idea about a new potential use for smart meters
> 
> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/09/19/critics-smart-meters-right-along2/
> 
> Food for thought for me.



PaywallEd...


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## PM9999 (4 Oct 2020)

If you register, I think you can get 3 articles free/week. Same story here

https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/la...ehicle-home-charging-switch-off-a-last-resort

not paywalled. The DT article expands the theory that there will be huge mismatches between demand and supply capacity and speculates that mission creep may extend the circumstances/time periods that smart meters could be used to ration power use.


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## Leo (4 Oct 2020)

newirishman said:


> PaywallEd...



If viewing on Windows, hit the escape key as soon as you see the article text to stop the script that will overlay the paywall message.

Or try Google to article name and select to view the cached version.


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## Zenith63 (5 Oct 2020)

PM9999 said:


> If you register, I think you can get 3 articles free/week. Same story here
> 
> https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/la...ehicle-home-charging-switch-off-a-last-resort
> 
> not paywalled. The DT article expands the theory that there will be huge mismatches between demand and supply capacity and speculates that mission creep may extend the circumstances/time periods that smart meters could be used to ration power use.


That's a much better article, the Telegraph one is a bit hysterical.  I'd love to see an offical document where it was suggested that heatpumps were one of the appliances that could be turned off.  Apart from the fact that people die every year being in homes that are too cold, so the chances of an energy company making that call is zero, heatpumps generally draw ~1kW power, it would make no sense to be turning those off when there are cars up the road pulling down 7kW.

Personally I'd be more than happy for the grid to have a say in when my car is charged so I can help make better use of excess wind energy etc.  Right now I tend to just plug it in when I get home from work, which means I and most of the rest of the country are all trying to charge our cars at the already peak time of 6pm.  It only needs to charge for 2-3 hours so if EirGrid are happy to figure out when is best I say game on.

The Fleetnews article makes the point that "...V2G charging will be more effective than smart charging...".  I'm sure it is a bit more flexible for EVs to be able to send power back into the grid, than for the grid operator to be able to smooth out peaks by turning off a few cars, however EV batteries lose a small bit of their life every time they go through a charge/discharge cycle, so personally I would not be opting to send power back to the grid from the car.

In summary, smart charging has been talked about for years and makes a whole lot of sense.  The Telegraph article at least looks like they were hunting for something to fill a page and didn't apply much critical analysis.


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## Cervelo (5 Oct 2020)

Good news for me, just received a letter from kncircet advising me over the coming weeks that they will again try and replace my meter
But I'm thinking that if we move to level 5 shortly this will be postponed again until we're back to level 2/3


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## Drakon (5 Oct 2020)

I’d say this falls under “essential services” and L5 restrictions will not affect the work being done. But I might be wrong.


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## roker (5 Oct 2020)

Odea said:


> The ESB are upgrading their meters in my area. They are using a company called KN Group to install these new meters.
> 
> I received a couple of letters from them and then a phone call to say that they would like to call to my home and replace meter. They would need to turn off our electricity for about 45 minutes to do the work. I am not sure if they can disconnect our electricity from outside our house where the meter box is located or if they need to call in to our home and switch it off from our internal fuse box?
> 
> ...


wasn't there some concern to health about radiation from these smart meters?


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## roker (5 Oct 2020)

mathepac said:


> This is the company contracted to do work for the telecomms companies. Because they do "line-work" for eircom, they are the goto installers for indoor work as well.
> 
> The existing analogue meters were also tested, approved and calibrated as accurate when they were installed. Has anyone ever heard of the existing meters being recalibrated? Presumably, like all mechanical, electro-mechanical devices there will be subject to wear over time.


is this another waist like the water meters? how much is it costing? why replace perfectly Google meters?


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## Zenith63 (5 Oct 2020)

roker said:


> wasn't there some concern to health about radiation from these smart meters?


There is an active conspiracy theory to that effect yes, linked to the 5G conspiracies, electric cars causing Coronavirus etc.  It is unscientific nonsense, but YMMV.



roker said:


> is this another waist like the water meters? how much is it costing? why replace perfectly Google meters?


Discussed further up in this thread, there are loads of benefits to smart meters and most of the downsides are mostly fearmongering and conspiracy theorists latching on to the latest hot conspiracy.  Not sure everybody would agree that water meters were a waste either, seemed more like a very vocal minority managed to scupper something fairly sensible to me - when clean water is a limited resource that costs the council money why should I not pay for my consumption?


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## fidelcastro (5 Oct 2020)

roker said:


> wasn't there some concern to health about radiation from these smart meters?


Have you tested for Radon in your house?


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## roker (6 Oct 2020)

fidelcastro said:


> Have you tested for Radon in your house?


different type of radiation


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## fidelcastro (6 Oct 2020)

roker said:


> different type of radiation4


OK.
Sorry what type have you concerns about.?


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## Leo (6 Oct 2020)

roker said:


> different type of radiation4



Absolutely! Radon of course is an ionising form of radiation is a proven killer. Low level RF like you'll get from a smart meter is a form of non-ionising radiation that doesn't have the associated dangers of causing molecular bonds in our cells to break down. 

So yeah, some crackpots who don't understand basic science are more worried about smart meters than they are about radon. Most of these people don't seem to worry too much that their TVs are most likely emitting far more radiation!


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## roker (6 Oct 2020)

Leo said:


> Absolutely! Radon of course is an ionising form of radiation is a proven killer. Low level RF like you'll get from a smart meter is a form of non-ionising radiation that doesn't have the associated dangers of causing molecular bonds in our cells to break down.
> 
> So yeah, some crackpots who don't understand basic science are more worried about smart meters than they are about radon. Most of these people don't seem to worry too much that their TVs are most likely emitting far more radiation!


And our wifi must be producing a low level effect which everyone takes for granted


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## Leo (6 Oct 2020)

roker said:


> And our wife must be producing a low level effect which everyone takes for granted



Our wife???? She must really prefer me as I haven't noted her missing too much lately!


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## fidelcastro (6 Oct 2020)

Leo said:


> Absolutely! Radon of course is an ionising form of radiation is a proven killer. Low level RF like you'll get from a smart meter is a form of non-ionising radiation that doesn't have the associated dangers of causing molecular bonds in our cells to break down.
> 
> So yeah, some crackpots who don't understand basic science are more worried about smart meters than they are about radon. Most of these people don't seem to worry too much that their TVs are most likely emitting far more radiation!


Thanks Leo. Well said. Most of the type writer warriors surrounded by GHz radio signals, emissions aplenty, yet without a clue about Radon levels they are living with 24/7


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## SparkRite (6 Oct 2020)

Zenith63 said:


> ...........there are loads of benefits to smart meters..........



Interested to hear what, say, 4 or 5 of these 'loads of benefits' are, to the customer, please?
Apart from the obvious one of making meter reading (and readers) redundant.
Debatable though as to whether those employed as such would see that as a benefit.


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## luckystar (6 Oct 2020)

Well I for one can’t wait. Have had a nightmare with BGE - have been billed for an extra 20,000 units as the meter was read incorrectly (by esb). Nearly 2 months later and still not rectified


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## Zenith63 (7 Oct 2020)

SparkRite said:


> Interested to hear what, say, 4 or 5 of these 'loads of benefits' are, to the customer, please?
> Apart from the obvious one of making meter reading (and readers) redundant.
> Debatable though as to whether those employed as such would see that as a benefit.


By no means an expert on the topic, so please don't ask me to defend any of these, but the things that interest me in no particular order -

Dynamic tarriffs.  Ireland wastes a bunch of wind energy every night, flexible tarriffing should allow the energy companies offer reduced rates at those times to use it.  We'll see a similar peak in generation earlier in the afternoon with more solar on the grid, so again should help there.  So pay less for what you use.
Live visibility of your electricity usage.  Useful to spot appliances that use a lot of power.  Handy to understand if you'd benefit from solar panels.  You'll be able to see what times of day you use more power, and possibly adjust that to save a few quid.  You'll see your usage in € not the fairly obscure (to most people) kWh.  More likely to be engaged with what you're paying for electricity and be encouraged to switch providers to get better deals (smart meter users in the UK are 22% more likely to switch provider).  You'll be able to match your usage to competitive offerings more easily/accurately to get the best deal.  In summary, reduced usage so you pay less.
Accurate billing.  As you said, no more waiting for the meter reader to come around or taking meter readings as you move between rental properties
Automatic use of cheaper tarriffs.  Some appliances, like washing machines/dish washers/car chargers can be connected to a smart meter so the meter can tell them when electricity is cheapest and they should start
Quicker fault finding by ESB as they'll be able to see every house that is live/offline.  Particularly interesting for medically vulnerable users as the network could detect failures for them instantly.
Less prone to failure/inaccuracies as old analogue meters
Improved pre-paid meter experience, see live usage in an app and top-up there etc.


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## Leo (7 Oct 2020)

fidelcastro said:


> Thanks Leo. Well said. Most of the type writer warriors surrounded by GHz radio signals, emissions aplenty, yet without a clue about Radon levels they are living with 24/7



For some, the most implausible of conspiracy theories make more compelling reading than a basic science book. Especially where evil corporate forces can be blamed. Adding my own unproven theory to the mix, I think there's a correlation between large cohorts of these people and a level of unhappiness with one's circumstances coupled with a preference to blame society or some authority figure rather than put the work in to address the real root cause. But that's probably one for another thread


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## polarbear (7 Dec 2020)

My old meter was changed to one of these "smart meters" Ater ESB had installed it, my bill was over 50x the normal amount. I'm now locked into a dispute with Airtricity over the outrageous bill. €2300 for 3 months for an unoccupied property for which I was paying only a connection fee and related charges.


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## jpd (7 Dec 2020)

Presumably you had some read the old meter before it was replaced, and who verified that the new meter was set at zero when it was installed


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## Saavy99 (8 Dec 2020)

polarbear said:


> My old meter was changed to one of these "smart meters" Ater ESB had installed it, my bill was over 50x the normal amount. I'm now locked into a dispute with Airtricity over the outrageous bill. €2300 for 3 months for an unoccupied property for which I was paying only a connection fee and related charges.



Contact these people








						Complaints - Commission for Regulation of Utilities
					

The CRU provide a free and easy and independent dispute resolution service. This service is available to all electricity, gas or Irish Water customers thatRead More



					gaeilge.cru.ie


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## Cervelo (8 Dec 2020)

Mine was finally replaced on the 18th of October
Guy arrived called to the door, submitted the old meter reading and installed the new meter and was gone in about 30 minutes
Got my first bill in early November showing both his reading and my end of October reading, everything as expected
But was a little surprised somewhat disappointed at the end of November when I found in my letter box an ESB request to "Submit your readings"
Thought these new smart meters were supposed to be able to be read remotely??


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## jpd (8 Dec 2020)

They are, but the service has not been activated yet


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## polarbear (8 Dec 2020)

jpd said:


> Presumably you had some read the old meter before it was replaced, and who verified that the new meter was set at zero when it was installed



Prior to the new smart meter installation, I submitted a reading.  Airtricity then did an ACTUAL reading which was no different to what I had submitted as the house is unoccupied and the power had been turned off at the mains. Then ESB installed their meter. I assumed that the meter would be set either at the last submitted meter reading OR 'zero'. Airtricity did an actual reading on the 20/11 and based on a zero reading now want me to pay €300.


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## jpd (8 Dec 2020)

So between the installation and 20/11 it looks like € 300 worth of electricity was used.
Have you any proof that the reading on the newly installed meter was anything but 0?


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## shweeney (12 Jan 2021)

We had a smart meter installed in September, only looking at the subsequent bills now and comparing them with the old meter (I have readings going back to 2015). 

The first reading in October showed the highest daily usage of any reading I have on record - nearly 17kW/h per day, last year around the same time we were using 13kW/h a day. This was in October, so not the dead of winter and not during a lockdown. The reading I took today myself is even higher (almost 19kW/h a day vs 15 for the Xmas period last year). 

I'm seriously sketchy about the accuracy of the new meter - it's seems to be reading about 25% higher than the old meter. What can I do about this?


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## Zenith63 (12 Jan 2021)

shweeney said:


> I'm seriously sketchy about the accuracy of the new meter - it's seems to be reading about 25% higher than the old meter. What can I do about this?


I installed one of these a few years ago and found it very accurate - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Efergy-Technologies-HUB-1-1-Monitor/dp/B00G5DZK8I.  I think measuring yourself should give you the comfort you need?


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## shweeney (12 Jan 2021)

Zenith63 said:


> I installed one of these a few years ago and found it very accurate - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Efergy-Technologies-HUB-1-1-Monitor/dp/B00G5DZK8I.  I think measuring yourself should give you the comfort you need?



I have something similar Airtricity gave me years ago, doesn't connect to the phone or anything but should be sufficient to cross check the meter readings. Just need to go and buy some D batteries for the clip sensor.

I compared the full Autumn/Winter period since the meter was installed with the same period last year, and it's actually a 35% increase in usage, which even allowing for people being at home more often, seems implausible, but we'll see.


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## Zenith63 (12 Jan 2021)

shweeney said:


> I compared the full Autumn/Winter period since the meter was installed with the same period last year, and it's actually a 35% increase in usage, which even allowing for people being at home more often, seems implausible, but we'll see.


It would be great if you could report back.  There's a lot of FUD knocking around about smart meters and them 'reading high' is a common point these conspiracy theorists latch onto.  The odd one will surely be faulty, tech is tech, but I'd bet you'll find your numbers are correct as will be the case for 99.9999% of people.


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## shweeney (12 Jan 2021)

Zenith63 said:


> It would be great if you could report back.  There's a lot of FUD knocking around about smart meters and them 'reading high' is a common point these conspiracy theorists latch onto.  The odd one will surely be faulty, tech is tech, but I'd bet you'll find your numbers are correct as will be the case for 99.9999% of people.



it's possible the old meter was reading low, I'll report back either way.


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## Cervelo (12 Jan 2021)

Just looked at my last Airtricity bill which included the swap over to the new meter
Old meter reading was showing we used 16.55 Kw per day
New meter reading 15.74 Kw per day

So for me it all seems to working as should but I wonder if people are seeing higher readings with the new meters could it possible be a fault with the old meter not recording their correct usage


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## elcato (12 Jan 2021)

shweeney said:


> I compared the full Autumn/Winter period since the meter was installed with the same period last year, and it's actually a 35% increase in usage, which even allowing for people being at home more often, seems implausible, but we'll see.


Slightly off-topic I am heading for probably 25% increase in usage (not bill amount) from March 20 to Feb 21.


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## shweeney (2 Feb 2021)

shweeney said:


> it's possible the old meter was reading low, I'll report back either way.



right, I dug out my old Airtricity "Smart Energy Monitor" and after a bit of fun trying to get it to pair up with the sensor I started measuring my total usage versus what the new meter is reading.

The results are in, the meter is reading about 10% over what the smart monitor says I've used. From reading up on these monitors it seems that's within the margin of error, and the average for the last 20 days is 16 units a day which is not far off last year's average. So it's probably not worth pursuing. In other news, I've now turned into my dad in the 1980s, obsessively turning off lights around the house (even though they're all LEDs so it's making sod all difference to the bill). I've also realised how often my kids are boiling the kettle - it's a lot!


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## Cervelo (3 Feb 2021)

shweeney said:


> In other news, I've now turned into my dad in the 1980s, obsessively turning off lights around the house (even though they're all LEDs so it's making sod all difference to the bill). I've also realised how often my kids are boiling the kettle - it's a lot!



Thanks for the trip down memory lane, my father was just the same in the seventies and early eighties
It was a mad time not just at home but when I used to go into the factory with him at the weekends there was stickers on all the light switches and the taps and the machinery telling people to turn the off after use, that's of course if we got to the factory most the time we had to turn back as somebody forgot to turn off the immersion, good times


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## joe sod (6 Feb 2021)

elcato said:


> Slightly off-topic I am heading for probably 25% increase in usage (not bill amount) from March 20 to Feb 21.


I know a man who installed solar panels on his roof but still had the old ESB meter from the 80s. He found that the solar panels were driving the meter backwards very good for him but obviously the ESB wanted to investigate why his electricity usage was actually going negative. That would explain why they are so keen to get so many "smart meters" installed. Yes they give you a very small discount for electricity you put back to grid but not the full wholesale price the old meters were giving


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## fidelcastro (1 Mar 2021)

joe sod said:


> I know a man who installed solar panels on his roof but still had the old ESB meter from the 80s. He found that the solar panels were driving the meter backwards very good for him but obviously the ESB wanted to investigate why his electricity usage was actually going negative. That would explain why they are so keen to get so many "smart meters" installed. Yes they give you a very small discount for electricity you put back to grid but not the full wholesale price the old meters were giving


RTE news : New smart meter plans offer free weekend electricity









						New smart meter plans offer free weekend electricity
					

Bord Gáis Energy has launched new plans for the 250,000 households across the country that have smart meters installed.




					www.rte.ie
				




One good reason for smart metering


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## fidelcastro (1 Mar 2021)

elcato said:


> Slightly off-topic I am heading for probably 25% increase in usage (not bill amount) from March 20 to Feb 21.


Do tell me....I'll never guess.... wait.. ah I get it...its coming....... . working from home...and locked up 24/7 since Mar 14th last year,.... I never turned on heating, cooked lunch, baked, had copious cups of tea, binged on Netflix to wee hours, power housed every cm of path, had a hot shower twice a day after exercising...

Nah, the 70s spinning top beats the solid state circuit installed in 100s of millions of consumer units worldwide by von Siemens, elec engineers from 1840.

Could it be that the spinning top is inaccurately reading Low and the 1% accurate solid state, designed & researched by some of brightest and best brains in the world is accurate.

Never..

Help us Lord...


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## Cervelo (6 Apr 2021)

jpd said:


> They are, but the service has not been activated yet


Just a quick update from me re the meters been read remotely, got me second Energia lecky bill and it has an actual reading that was done remotely, now if only the new gas meter was the same....


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## roker (9 Apr 2021)

Zenith63 said:


> Also looking forward to getting a smart meter in, to be able to see live usage, get away from the estimated bill nonsense, ability to access new tariffs, pushing people to use some of the wind energy the country wastes many nights etc.


how do we monitor energy consumption when the meter is in a box outside?


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## Zenith63 (9 Apr 2021)

roker said:


> how do we monitor energy consumption when the meter is in a box outside?


You will get access to an app to see it.


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## roker (9 Apr 2021)

Odea said:


> The ESB are upgrading their meters in my area. They are using a company called KN Group to install these new meters.
> 
> I received a couple of letters from them and then a phone call to say that they would like to call to my home and replace meter. They would need to turn off our electricity for about 45 minutes to do the work. I am not sure if they can disconnect our electricity from outside our house where the meter box is located or if they need to call in to our home and switch it off from our internal fuse box?
> 
> ...


I cannot see how they save energy, the dryer, oven TV fridge use the same amount of electricity, and how do I know how much they're using when the meter is in a box outside


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## Zenith63 (9 Apr 2021)

roker said:


> I cannot see how they save energy, the dryer, oven TV fridge use the same amount of electricity, and how do I know how much they're using when the meter is in a box outside


The smart meter doesn't save any energy, sure how could it, what it does is let you see your consumption live and potentially make changes to how you use electricity to save energy/money yourself.

I put in an energy monitor myself a few years ago as I was considering solar panels.  In my experience seeing the dial in the app turn red and rocket from 0.2kW (€0.03/hour) to 5kW (€0.85/hour) certainly made me think before I stuck on the oven ages before I needed it, boiled full kettles unnecessarily, left the immersion on etc.  I have little doubt most people would end up saving themselves a few quid through visibility of their consumption realtime.


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## Leo (9 Apr 2021)

roker said:


> I cannot see how they save energy, the dryer, oven TV fridge use the same amount of electricity, and how do I know how much they're using when the meter is in a box outside



The argument isn't that the meters themselves will save money, rather that access to more detailed information will encourage people to change behaviour.

Edit - SNAP! What he said


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## Sue Ellen (9 Apr 2021)

Data Protection Commissioner is asked to investigate ESB Smart Meters


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## Zenith63 (9 Apr 2021)

Sue Ellen said:


> Data Protection Commissioner is asked to investigate ESB Smart Meters


These seem like fairly reasonable concerns to be honest, it would be remarkable if ESB didn't consider this possibility when they designed the system though   

The option should be there for people who do not want the granular detail of their usage sent to ESB, but rather for the meter to act as a modern but like-for-like replacement to the manually read meters where it sends just a single reading once a week or month.


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## Sue Ellen (9 Apr 2021)

Zenith63 said:


> These seem like fairly reasonable concerns to be honest, it would be remarkable if ESB didn't consider this possibility when they designed the system though
> 
> The option should be there for people who do not want the granular detail of their usage sent to ESB, but rather for the meter to act as a modern but like-for-like replacement to the manually read meters where it sends just a single reading once a week or month.



Big brother is watching 

'Dr Eoin O’Dell of Trinity College Dublin warned of “mission creep”, with data intended for use by electricity suppliers ending up being accessed by gardaí, Revenue or social welfare officials to check if and when people were at home'


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## roker (9 Apr 2021)

Leo said:


> The argument isn't that the meters themselves will save money, rather that access to more detailed information will encourage people to change behaviour.
> 
> Edit - SNAP! What he said


I gathered that, but as I said if you are going to cook something or dry clothes it takes what it takes


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## roker (9 Apr 2021)

Zenith63 said:


> The smart meter doesn't save any energy, sure how could it, what it does is let you see your consumption live and potentially make changes to how you use electricity to save energy/money yourself.
> 
> I put in an energy monitor myself a few years ago as I was considering solar panels.  In my experience seeing the dial in the app turn red and rocket from 0.2kW (€0.03/hour) to 5kW (€0.85/hour) certainly made me think before I stuck on the oven ages before I needed it, boiled full kettles unnecessarily, left the immersion on etc.  I have little doubt most people would end up saving themselves a few quid through visibility of their consumption realtime.


I already take these precautions which is only common sense, plus I have solar panels. how do view the meter outside?


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## Zenith63 (9 Apr 2021)

roker said:


> I already take these precautions which is only common sense, plus I have solar panels. how do view the meter outside?


My solar system came with an inductive pickup that clamps onto your incoming mains cable, so through the solar system app I can see import/export/generation etc.

I know most older systems didn’t have this kinda thing though, so what I used was one of these - https://efergy.com/engage/. Same as what comes with solar PV now, a simple clamp around your incoming mains cable in the meter cabinet and a few minutes later you see live usage in the app. I enjoyed playing with it!


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## Leo (9 Apr 2021)

roker said:


> I gathered that, but as I said if you are going to cook something or dry clothes it takes what it takes



So you understand what they mean and are just being deliberately obtuse, got it.


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## shweeney (12 Apr 2021)

Zenith63 said:


> You will get access to an app to see it.


where is this app?


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