# Alcohol promotions - what is the legal position



## Complainer (25 May 2011)

Just came across this advert; 

http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=131941266881821



> 1. Hot dancers
> 2. Beer Bongs
> 3. 5 Shots for €10
> 4. Pitchers of beer/cocktails for €10
> ...



Ignoring the taste issue, are there legal issues around these types of low price drink promotions?


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## JoeB (26 May 2011)

Yes, there should be.

The publicans who recently didn't go to jail for manslaughter highlights the issues. Personally I think those barmen were responsible, even if their behaviour is standard. They sold a guy half a bottle of vodka wasn't it?, to a man who was already drunk. (8 to 10 shots sold, in a pint glass.. both 8 and 10 shots were reported,.. a full bottle is approx 21 to 22 shots, 35ml each I think)


The point is that it's an offence to sell to a drunk person, and it's also an offence to be drunk in public isn't it?


The low prices on drink promotions could be seen as incentivising people to drink too much... but the recent case seems to remove responsibility from the barmen. In that case the barmen did wonder if they should go ahead, so they asked the Manager, who approved the sale of 8 to 10 shots, in a single glass, to a guy whose stated intention was to drink them more quickly than another person would drink a pint of beer. I think the charge of manslaughter should have held up, although I agree that that would be very harse on the barmen. But a man is dead... so the situation was very serious.

Would the charge of manslaughter have stood if they allowed him to drink a pint of bleach, which they supplied, as a bet?


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## bluemac (26 May 2011)

once your over 18 it should be your responsibility,  all this health and saftey and what you can and carnt do is mad.

having said this any company selling a product has a duty of care to there customers ie not leaving them in any danger to the customer or others.


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## NorfBank (26 May 2011)

Complainer said:


> Just came across this advert;
> http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=131941266881821



Happy hours are banned but if the promotion is for the whole of your trading day then I think it's ok. I presume Tramco opens at 2230 on a Friday?


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## Complainer (26 May 2011)

NorfBank said:


> Happy hours are banned but if the promotion is for the whole of your trading day then I think it's ok. I presume Tramco opens at 2230 on a Friday?


I doubt it - from reading a couple of online reviews, it seems to be open but largely empty in the evenings, until the post-pub crowd come in from 11 onwards.

Who would be the relevant regulator for this?


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## truthseeker (26 May 2011)

JoeBallantin said:


> Would the charge of manslaughter have stood if they allowed him to drink a pint of bleach, which they supplied, as a bet?


 
The intended purpose of bleach is not for drinking. I am sure had they supplied him a pint of bleach the charge would have stood.

I dont see it was their responsibility, people have to take personal responsbility for their actions. If the manslaughter charge had stood barmen would not be able to do their job without fear of being charged with someones death, same for waitresses, air hostesses, room service in hotels. The same could be said for shopkeepers who sell tobacco, chemists who dispense paracetmol or doctors who prescribe medicine.

Alcohol promotions are probably irresponsible and I certainly dont like the idea of them, but if alcohol is a legal drug, and sold with the possibility that one can die from overdoing it, then the responsibility for being sensible must be on the person who drinks it.


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## Complainer (26 May 2011)

truthseeker said:


> If the manslaughter charge had stood barmen would not be able to do their job without fear of being charged with someones death,


Do you really think it is their job to sell a pint of mixed spirits in a pint glass?


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## truthseeker (26 May 2011)

Complainer said:


> Do you really think it is their job to sell a pint of mixed spirits in a pint glass?


 
What practical difference does it make if they sell the mixed spirits in one glass or sell 8 or 10 shots seperately that the person either consumes one after another or pours into one glass himself to consume?


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## fobs (26 May 2011)

Why are you bothered either way about the promotion? If all pubs charged less I and others might go out more! Would not be enticed by these drinks but paying over €7 for a gin and tonic is mad and so I prefer to have a drink at home.

I would not binge drink because it is cheaper but I might be enticed to go out rather than have a glass of wine at home! €4-5 euro for a glass of wine in a bar when you can get a bottle for the same price so can see why publicans are trying to entice their customers to spend their money by reducing their prices.


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## Mpsox (26 May 2011)

In terms of legislation, the relevant Acts to look at are the Intoxicating liquer acts 03, 04 and 08. As a previous poster mentioned, "happy hours" are prohibited. The Adverstising Standards authority have guidelines for alcohol advertising, but I presume they are not much use
[broken link removed]

If you beleive this bar is breaking the law, then I presume you need to go to the Gardai. I can't see anyone else enforcing it.


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## Complainer (26 May 2011)

fobs said:


> Why are you bothered either way about the promotion? If all pubs charged less I and others might go out more! Would not be enticed by these drinks but paying over €7 for a gin and tonic is mad and so I prefer to have a drink at home.


This particular event and promotion is clearly targetted at young students, who are not generally reknowned for their self control. There is a serious risk of somebody doing serious harm to themselves.



Mpsox said:


> In terms of legislation, the relevant Acts to look at are the Intoxicating liquer acts 03, 04 and 08. As a previous poster mentioned, "happy hours" are prohibited.
> If you beleive this bar is breaking the law, then I presume you need to go to the Gardai. I can't see anyone else enforcing it.


Thanks - it looks like this is the relevant section;
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2003/en/act/pub/0031/sec0020.html#sec20

Can anyone confirm/deny that the Gardaí are the relevant enforcement body?


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## Boyd (26 May 2011)

Aw come on, I know youre username is Complainer but seriously - going to the gardai over "cheap" drink promotions is a bit OCD. For example, €4 for vodka/dash is what it should cost in reality anyway, similar for bottles of Corona etc which are sold for as much as €6 even though they can be gotten for under a euro in off license. 
These types of nights were the best nights out back when I in college, to be honest you sound like a bit of a kill joy. It really is getting to nanny state levels when Joe Public is now complaining about stuff like this.


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## JoeB (26 May 2011)

truthseeker said:


> The intended purpose of bleach is not for drinking. I am sure had they supplied him a pint of bleach the charge would have stood.
> 
> I dont see it was their responsibility, people have to take personal responsbility for their actions. If the manslaughter charge had stood barmen would not be able to do their job without fear of being charged with someones death, same for waitresses, air hostesses, room service in hotels. The same could be said for shopkeepers who sell tobacco, chemists who dispense paracetmol or doctors who prescribe medicine.



When I worked as a barman, 15 years ago, it was stressed to me that selling anything larger than a double could put you in breach of various laws, .. barmen do have a responsibilty not to serve drunk people, and not to sell 40% alcohol, which can kill.. willy nilly.

Selling half a bottle of vodka to a man whose intention is to drink it in one go is criminal in my view.

Barmen should be in fear of being charged with manslaughter, as they sell a poison, and legislation has always existed in this area, .. they cannot just wash their hands of responsibility.

Personally I expected the charge to stand, but that a suspended sentence would be handed down. As it is the judge has made things worse, not better. The manager didn't do his job with due diligence, and a man is dead.. so what was the judge thinking? The dead man had been drinking all day, and was involved in drinking bets... the manager should have stopped serving him, as per the law.


What about the headache tablets? Tesco have a policy of limiting sales.. they don't just willy nilly sell someone ten packs of barbituates. .and watch them go off to kill themselves. Why is this?, why do they take responsibility?


edited to add. freepouring alcohol is also very dodgy, as the exact quantity can't be determined... this applies to free bars, where it doesn't help someone to give them three shots per glass, as they'd be used to less, and may over-drink. The free bar would have to take some responsibility for that, especially if the person was asking for singles or doubles, and was given more.


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## fizzelina (26 May 2011)

Complainer said:


> Do you really think it is their job to sell a pint of mixed spirits in a pint glass?


 
I remember from my younger days that if you wanted to buy a Fat Frog the barman would only give you the 3 bottles of alcohol and 2 empty pint glasses and not pour it into a glass for you. So effectively they sold only 3 bottles which you then decided to mix, taking the risk yourself of doing so. 
In this court case the barman should not have put the shots into a pint glass he was leaving himself very vulnerable to the manslaughter charge. Selling the 8 shots in separate shot glasses and allowing the gang of lads to do as they want with them would have meant no court case I reckon.


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## DB74 (26 May 2011)

JoeBallantin said:


> What about the headache tablets? Tesco have a policy of limiting sales.. they don't just willy nilly sell someone ten packs of barbituates. .and watch them go off to kill themselves. Why is this?, why do they take responsibility?



I don't think it's Tesco policy - I think it's the law

I could be wrong here though


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## truthseeker (26 May 2011)

JoeBallantin said:


> Selling half a bottle of vodka to a man whose intention is to drink it in one go is criminal in my view.


 
If an off licence sells someone a bottle of vodka they have no idea whether or not the person is going to drink it in one go or not.

Did they know he was going to drink it in one go? At least one source said both barmen claimed to investigators that they thought the guy was going to share it with friends.

The only point Im making here (and in this particular case the Judge/court seems to agree with me) is that the person undertakes to drink irresponsibly like that of their own free will.

Tesco only changed their policy on paracetmol because of regulations introduced by the Department of Health.

I am aware that laws exist like serving bigger than doubles, not serving drunk people, but those laws are ignored in practically every bar in the country. You are not supposed to be drunk in public, stand outside Harcourt Street Garda Station any weekend night and watch the Guards arrest the scores of drunkards pouring out of Copper Face Jacks and surrounds - I certainly dont see it, nor do I see them in arresting the barmen in those places for serving drunk people.


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## Complainer (26 May 2011)

username123 said:


> Aw come on, I know youre username is Complainer but seriously - going to the gardai over "cheap" drink promotions is a bit OCD. For example, €4 for vodka/dash is what it should cost in reality anyway, similar for bottles of Corona etc which are sold for as much as €6 even though they can be gotten for under a euro in off license.
> These types of nights were the best nights out back when I in college, to be honest you sound like a bit of a kill joy. It really is getting to nanny state levels when Joe Public is now complaining about stuff like this.


Fair enough, so. I won't bother. I guess there is no possible downside of binge drinking;
http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1104/murphyg.html
[broken link removed]
[broken link removed]



truthseeker said:


> If an off licence sells someone a bottle of vodka they have no idea whether or not the person is going to drink it in one go or not.


Theoretically true, but realistically, there is a reasonable expectation that they are not going to drink it in one go. Whereas if you give out a pint of spirits in a pint glass, there is a reasonable expectation that they WILL drink it in one go.


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## DB74 (26 May 2011)

And you have the cheek to ask me if I want a police state!


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## elcato (26 May 2011)

> Fair enough, so. I won't bother. I guess there is no possible downside of binge drinking;


Somebody please think of the children ....... The pub is selling _selected _cheaper drinks than some other pubs. Big deal. It should be encouraged for competition reasons.


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## truthseeker (26 May 2011)

Complainer said:


> Whereas if you give out a pint of spirits in a pint glass, there is a reasonable expectation that they WILL drink it in one go.


 
Not according to the source I earlier linked where the barmen claimed they thought the person was going to share it with his friends.

Anyway, even if the person IS going to drink it in one go - how is that the responsibility of anyone else bar the fool who decides to endanger their own health in that way? This is an adult who has decided to do something dangerous. If the barmen didnt serve him the booze he could have gone to an off licence, a supermarket, even a spar shop and gotten more alcohol and poured it down his throat in whatever manner he chose.

Course there is a downside to binge drinking, but making barmen responsible for manslaughter isnt the way to fix it. Educating people on the dangers of alcohol, on the notion of personal responsibility and changing the binge drinking culture in this country is the correct way to stop these dreadful deaths from happening.

You cannot legislate for every downright stupid action that a supposedly responsible adult will take - nor should a state have to.


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## Mpsox (26 May 2011)

username123 said:


> Aw come on, I know youre username is Complainer but seriously - going to the gardai over "cheap" drink promotions is a bit OCD. For example, €4 for vodka/dash is what it should cost in reality anyway, similar for bottles of Corona etc which are sold for as much as €6 even though they can be gotten for under a euro in off license.
> These types of nights were the best nights out back when I in college, to be honest you sound like a bit of a kill joy. It really is getting to nanny state levels when Joe Public is now complaining about stuff like this.


 
I'll remember that the next time I have to clean vomit off my car and brush broken glass up from outside my house on a Sunday morning after someone spent the night before out "enjoying" themselves. I'm just being a killjoy in wishing they wouldn't do that


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## DB74 (26 May 2011)

Did the person involved drink cheap drink which was on special offer in the pub?

Just because some people can't handle their drink doesn't mean that others can't handle it responsibly


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## Mpsox (26 May 2011)

DB74 said:


> Did the person involved drink cheap drink which was on special offer in the pub?
> 
> Just because some people can't handle their drink doesn't mean that others can't handle it responsibly


 
Absolutely agree, but cheap drink makes it easier for peeople to act in an irresponsible manner. There have been studies done in the UK for example that indicate that 70% of cases in A&E at the weekend are alcohol related.
There are some very scary stats relating to alcohol in Ireland here
http://alcoholireland.ie/alcohol-facts/alcohol-related-harm-facts-and-statistics/

I'm not a teetotaler (2 very nice pints last Sunday on my way back from a hurling match) or a killjoy and remember plenty of good nights when I was 
younger when I got "polluted". However I don't believe anyone should be encouraging excessive drinking and to me, the ad in the OP's original post does that


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## JoeB (26 May 2011)

This source
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/man-died-after-10shot-party-trick-2637879.html

makes clear that the barman filled ten shots into a single glass, knowing the purpose, and only then checked with his manager, who ok'ed it.

The man fell off his chair, totally drunk, and rather than calling a doctor, they put him in the conference room, where he was found dead hours later.

The barmen have no responsibility for that?, even for not calling a doctor when someone collaspes on your licensed premises?

As I say, criminal in my view, and the charge should have been upheld. Was the case in the circuit court? Are court records available? I'd like to read this case in full.


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## Complainer (26 May 2011)

truthseeker said:


> Not according to the source I earlier linked where the barmen claimed they thought the person was going to share it with his friends.


Ah come on, that's a 'dog eat my homework' excuse. Is it in any way realistic that he would have asked for it in a pint glass if he was going to share it?



truthseeker said:


> Anyway, even if the person IS going to drink it in one go - how is that the responsibility of anyone else bar the fool who decides to endanger their own health in that way? This is an adult who has decided to do something dangerous. If the barmen didnt serve him the booze he could have gone to an off licence, a supermarket, even a spar shop and gotten more alcohol and poured it down his throat in whatever manner he chose.


Again, all theoretically true but completely unrealistic. The drinker's objective was not to drink a pint of spirits. The drinker's objective was to impress his meets and show off about what a big man he was by drinking a pint of spirits. He wouldn't have been able to achieve this objective if he had to run off to the SPAR shop to buy booze. In fact, he probably wouldn't have been able to find the SPAR shop. The actions of the barmen enabled his behaviour, and he died.



truthseeker said:


> Course there is a downside to binge drinking, but making barmen responsible for manslaughter isnt the way to fix it. Educating people on the dangers of alcohol, on the notion of personal responsibility and changing the binge drinking culture in this country is the correct way to stop these dreadful deaths from happening.
> 
> You cannot legislate for every downright stupid action that a supposedly responsible adult will take - nor should a state have to.


So just for curiousity's sake, would you support eliminating the restriction on paracetemol? And indeed the restrictions on all prescription drugs? And indeed the restrictions on all non-prescription drugs? People should take personal responsibility - right?


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## Boyd (26 May 2011)

Mpsox said:


> I'll remember that the next time I have to clean vomit off my car and brush broken glass up from outside my house on a Sunday morning after someone spent the night before out "enjoying" themselves. I'm just being a killjoy in wishing they wouldn't do that



This will still happen without any promotions or "cheap" drinks. I fail to see how being able to get vodka and mixer in a pub for €4 is causing this, considering you can get a full bottle from an off-license and do the same thing.


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## Firefly (26 May 2011)

The Boardwalk pub in Cork has a sign outside that says Coctails are a fiver between 5-7pm on some night..surely this is illegal too?


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## elcato (26 May 2011)

> Absolutely agree, but cheap drink makes it easier for peeople to act in  an irresponsible manner. There have been studies done in the UK for  example that indicate that 70% of cases in A&E at the weekend are  alcohol related.
> There are some very scary stats relating to alcohol in Ireland here


But that in itself does not prove that cheaper drink was the sole cause of this. When we were teenagers we simply went to off-licenses rather than pubs cos we got more bang per buck. This can be said nowadays of anyone as they can buy cheaper drink in a supermarket. Do people go out with the sole intention of spending x amount on drink rather than drinking x amount of pints ?


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## Boyd (26 May 2011)

Complainer said:


> Fair enough, so. I won't bother. I guess there is no possible downside of binge drinking;
> http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1104/murphyg.html
> [broken link removed]
> [broken link removed]



Those three stories all relate to people drinking home. My point is that IMO €4 is an appropriate price for a vodka and dash in a pub and would not cause people to double or triple the number of them they would buy in one night


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## Firefly (26 May 2011)

username123 said:


> These types of nights were the best nights out back when I in college, to be honest you sound like a bit of a kill joy. It really is getting to nanny state levels when Joe Public is now complaining about stuff like this.



A friend of mine works for a university and says the levels of drinking have increased dramatically in the past few years. In the past we used to have some wine before heading out to the pub and a few pints did the trick. Today it's a lot of spirits before heading out and more spirits when they are out so it's not really comparing like with like. They were good days though weren't they?


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## Complainer (26 May 2011)

username123 said:


> This will still happen without any promotions or "cheap" drinks. I fail to see how being able to get vodka and mixer in a pub for €4 is causing this, considering you can get a full bottle from an off-license and do the same thing.





username123 said:


> Those three stories all relate to people drinking home. My point is that IMO €4 is an appropriate price for a vodka and dash in a pub and would not cause people to double or triple the number of them they would buy in one night


And would you put

€10, 3 Jaeger Bombs
€10, 5 shots

in the same 'business as usual' category? Why do you think TramCo limit this offer to start late at night?


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## Mpsox (26 May 2011)

username123 said:


> Those three stories all relate to people drinking home. My point is that IMO €4 is an appropriate price for a vodka and dash in a pub and would not cause people to double or triple the number of them they would buy in one night


 

The why is the pub having a promotion?

The price paid in a supermarket is not relevant to pub prices, supermarkets don't provide you with a place to sit down and drink it


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## truthseeker (26 May 2011)

Complainer said:


> Ah come on, that's a 'dog eat my homework' excuse. Is it in any way realistic that he would have asked for it in a pint glass if he was going to share it?


 
I dont know - theyre not my words, theyre from a source I quoted.



Complainer said:


> The drinker's objective was not to drink a pint of spirits. The drinker's objective was to impress his meets and show off about what a big man he was by drinking a pint of spirits.


 
How do you know what his objective was - were you there with him?



Complainer said:


> So just for curiousity's sake, would you support eliminating the restriction on paracetemol? And indeed the restrictions on all prescription drugs? And indeed the restrictions on all non-prescription drugs? People should take personal responsibility - right?


 
Yes, yes, yes, and absolutely yes!


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## truthseeker (26 May 2011)

JoeBallantin said:


> The man fell off his chair, totally drunk, and rather than calling a doctor, they put him in the conference room, where he was found dead hours later.
> 
> The barmen have no responsibility for that?, even for not calling a doctor when someone collaspes on your licensed premises?


 
I didnt know that Joe - they should have called an ambulance.

I still dont think they should be held responsible for manslaughter for serving him the drink though.


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## michaelm (26 May 2011)

elcato said:


> Somebody please think of the children ....... The pub is selling _selected _cheaper drinks than some other pubs. Big deal. It should be encouraged for competition reasons.


Yes, think of the children.  My new year's resolution is to try this binge drinking and tax evasion that's so popular these days.


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## Boyd (26 May 2011)

Mpsox said:


> The why is the pub having a promotion?
> 
> The price paid in a supermarket is not relevant to pub prices, supermarkets don't provide you with a place to sit down and drink it



Obviously to tempt people buy alcohol, im not disputing that, its advertising. Cheaper drink will let people drink more, but if they want to do so they will find a way anyway e.g. from supermarket as I said. 

Conversely, as it was national fish and chips day yesterday, I bought some, specifically due to the price. I didnt stuff my face with 10 rounds of it though. Why arent people complaining about this blatant advertising, considering obesity is such a problem these days?


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## z107 (26 May 2011)

During my (fun) binge drinking days, my capacity was the limiting factor, not how cheap the drink was.

When I started to feel sick, I generally stopped boozing.

Following complainer's logic, maybe we should just ban fags and booze and board up the pubs?


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## losttheplot (27 May 2011)

"What about the headache tablets? Tesco have a policy of limiting sales.. they don't just willy nilly sell someone ten packs of barbituates. .and watch them go off to kill themselves. Why is this?, why do they take responsibility?"

 Paracetamol sales were regulated as the governments response to suicide (easier than tackling the root cause). So the cashier in Tesco will prevent you buying Panadol, Lemsip and Calpol together, but will sell you vodka, whiskey, bleach and a lot more that would kill you if you drank it. 

Perhaps the pub should share respnsibilty for public order offences or contribute more to cleaning up the streets after saturday nights.


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