# Visibility of GoSafe Cameras?  Inappropriate Speed limits: How are they set/amended?



## NOAH (19 Apr 2011)

``I was intrigued to read that a LOT of drivers were done for speeding in March!!  Are these new go safe camera vans invisible???  Or well hidden! I am off on my travels soon and wondered how does one spot them?

noah


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## PaddyBloggit (19 Apr 2011)

.... at the last minute.

They park so it's too late to slow down if you are over the limit.


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## bluemac (19 Apr 2011)

hidden in field gates behind bushes and on long straight stretches plus they dont sit there all day they move every hour or so...   best to stick to the speed limit the areas are well signed and the speed limit is usually fast enough in those places..


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## ajapale (19 Apr 2011)

In recent months little camera signs have gone up at the start of the GoSafe stretches.


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## Sandals (19 Apr 2011)

I personally am for the vans as indeed I notice myself obeying the speed limits. 

However a few family members and in-laws got caught, one noticed the townland named was attached to the wrong town and so sent a quick email pointing this out. Fine squashed, one had paid ages ago and they emailed and got their money back.  This info has spread around here and seems alot of people will send a quick email too.


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## NickyK (19 Apr 2011)

Has anybody noticed they always seem to be parked(hidden) where there's a change in the speed limit? On one notorious stretch near me they're always on the 60 side of an 80 stretch of road. Pointing the camera right where the limit changes.


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## Billo (19 Apr 2011)

Recently I traveled from Portlaoise to Abbeyleix and Durrow and on to Urlingford. The speed limit is now 60km, which is too slow. Anyone know if that is to remain in place ? If so I will have to use the motorway and pay the toll.


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## dahamsta (19 Apr 2011)

Hopefully people will contact their local representatives about inappropriate limits.

The entire population of Waterford should be in touch with WCC about the ring road, for example.


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## NickyK (19 Apr 2011)

Totally agree dahamsta. Since the dual carriageway between Waterford and Kilmeaden opened the old main road has gone from 100 to 80. Same road!!! Now you have idiots passing in dangerous places because the limit is obviously too low making the road even more deadly. My SIL lives on a road where you could barely squeeze two cars with an 80 limit.


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## turtle77 (20 Apr 2011)

_My SIL lives on a road where you could barely squeeze two cars with an 80 limit_

If you could barely squeeze two cars, then surely the limit shouldn't be any higher? It should be lower. What if two trucks were meeting??


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## ajapale (20 Apr 2011)

Noah,

Ive expanded the title to reflect the discussion:
Visibility of GoSafe Cameras?  Inappropriate Speed limits: How are they set/amended?

aj
moderator


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## NOAH (20 Apr 2011)

I have spoken to a few others and it struck us that the increase is so large maybe the cameras have no in  between feature ie if  doing say 55 in a 50 after leaving a 60 then you are done.  Same would apply going from a 100 to an 80  etc.  This means a lot more will be caught as there used to be a convention to allow some leeway for equipment glithces.

Does anyone know if there is "safe spot"  ie 5kph is ignored.

If not it will take a few more months for the system to sink in.  Then numbers caught should plummet.

I know the best option is just watch for speed signs and act accordingly but quite a few people have sat navs now and a lot of roads are wrong ie sign says 60 sat nav says 80 and so on.  Mind you sat navs can be wrong as well.

Here is an example.   Exit for Ennis at Barefield  from the Limerick direction and speed is 50kmph,  then at  2nd roundabout to Gort road it says 60Kmph,  sat nav says 80kmph, then further on it shows 60kmph then leads to 50kmph BUT on way out it goes 50, 60 and then  the 80kmph  sign is  a long distance before the Barefield roundabout. Is it possible there can be 60 one way and 80 the other on same road???  I only noticed this today.   What I am trying to explain is, if the signs says 60 and the road is actually 50  or  60 or 80 then how does one check?  A speeding ticket comes a few weeks after the event and  you would have no way of knowing what sign was displayed.

noah


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## dahamsta (20 Apr 2011)

The legal situation regarding speedos is covered here: wikipedia speedometer errorhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speedometer#Error. 

Generally speaking, although the EU rules require that inaccuracy shouldn't allow someone to speed, there are many rule sets and none are global, so to cover themselves they're unlikely to send out fines for less than 10%. 

I've seen some very low tickets recently though, as little as 7kph over speed limits. 

Those would be lower speed limits though.


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## Mrs Vimes (20 Apr 2011)

Whatever the sign says is really the only thing you could rely on. There have been cases where speeding fines were successfully challenged because the authority (Cork City Council re Horgan's Quay is one that springs to mind) didn't vote on the speed limit.

I would imagine you would be laughed out of court for trying to use "my sat nav said it was 80km/h" as a defence, but if you could say "the speed limit sign said 80km/h" you would probably be ok.


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## Leo (20 Apr 2011)

turtle77 said:


> _My SIL lives on a road where you could barely squeeze two cars with an 80 limit_
> 
> If you could barely squeeze two cars, then surely the limit shouldn't be any higher? It should be lower. What if two trucks were meeting??


 
NickyK was obviously talking about two different roads, the dual carriageway with an 80km/h limit, and the one where two cars can barely pass but also with an 80km/h limit.

The drop on the roads around Durrow/Urlingford is to encourage cars onto the motorway.


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## ajapale (20 Apr 2011)

Leo said:


> NickyK was obviously talking about two different roads, the dual carriageway with an 80km/h limit


Its a bit confusing but I think hes talking about the old main road. 

When the new separate dual carriageway road opened the limit on the old road reduced to 80km/h. His point is that the old road is still the old road (presumably with lower traffic volumes).

At least thats my interpretation.

aj


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## ajapale (20 Apr 2011)

Leo said:


> The drop on the roads around Durrow/Urlingford is to encourage cars onto the motorway.



Hi Leo,

Does this mean that there are other considerations (apart from road safety) at play when speed limits are set?

aj


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## NOAH (20 Apr 2011)

Just gone back on that ennis road and hey presto the sign has been changed to ..... 80kmph each way but ..  as you get off MW its 50kmph and then for literally 100 yards a sign says 60, then 50 again.  At least those cameras make us look at the speed signs in a total different manner.  I still reckon the high number of people caught was due to runs between signs.  I now know I'll be slowing before the sign and keeping a watchful eye out.

noah


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## Leo (21 Apr 2011)

ajapale said:


> Does this mean that there are other considerations (apart from road safety) at play when speed limits are set?


 
Hi AJ, 

I saw an interview with an NRA spokesman who stated that limits were dropped on motorway alternative routes to encourage motorway usage on the grounds of safety. 

Of course the cynic in me thinks this more often happens around tolled motorways where the PPP contract guarantees minimum traffic levels. A number of these contracts also have clauses for revenue sharing once certain traffic volumes are exceeded. So it's doubly in the NRA's interest to encourage use of tolled motorways.

I also believe there is a link (in some counties at least) between the feasibility of obtaining planning permission for a new entrance on a road and the speed limit in effect on that road. That came from a local councillor explaining some anomalies in speed limits near where I'm from.
Leo


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## Latrade (21 Apr 2011)

Leo said:


> Hi AJ,
> 
> I saw an interview with an NRA spokesman who stated that limits were dropped on motorway alternative routes to encourage motorway usage on the grounds of safety.
> Leo


 
Which doesn't explain what's happened to the M1 near the airport. While two lanes it went from 120 down to 80. Now three lanes it has gone to 60. 

60 km/hr on a 3 lane stretch of motorway. How's that encouraging people not to speed? The Malahide road is 60 km up to Coolock.


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## xeresod (21 Apr 2011)

Latrade said:


> Which doesn't explain what's happened to the M1 near the airport. While two lanes it went from 120 down to 80. Now three lanes it has gone to 60.
> 
> 60 km/hr on a 3 lane stretch of motorway. How's that encouraging people not to speed? The Malahide road is 60 km up to Coolock.


 
Maybe the lower speed limit is to account for tourists in unfamilar hire cars coming from the airport?


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## Woodie (21 Apr 2011)

I'm all for the safety cameras if used and issued appropriately.   A 5-10% leeway depending on the speed limit i.e. 10% of 30 is 3km (33) where as 10% of 120 is 12 (133) the latter would seem a little excessive leeway.   Maybe a flat 5km.   I don't know about anyone else but sometimes I find clock watching can be more dangerous and other factors should be accounted for, speed of general surrounding traffic, road conditions, weather.   I know in the UK there is leeway, I just hope we will not be too zealous and loose the safety message.  
That said generally driving in Ireland attrocious, even on motorways peoples bad habits are growing, last minute cutting in at exits, no indication and excessive speed.   
Speedlimits should be set nationally based on contributions from local authorities.  Too often speed limits are not appropriate, too fast in some areas and too slow in others.  I agree with posters above the Waterford circular is one of those.


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## redstar (22 Sep 2011)

*Unmarked speed vans ?*

According to the Garda website, the GoSafe speed vans are supposed to be Hi Visibilty and clearly marked. I have seen unmarked RED vans (the cameras are clearly visible, and they park at the same place where the marked vans are usually parked).

Are these unmarked vans not official, and if so would fines issued from these vans be open to challenge ?


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## T McGibney (22 Sep 2011)

posted in error


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## csirl (22 Sep 2011)

Latrade said:


> Which doesn't explain what's happened to the M1 near the airport. While two lanes it went from 120 down to 80. Now three lanes it has gone to 60.
> 
> 60 km/hr on a 3 lane stretch of motorway. How's that encouraging people not to speed? The Malahide road is 60 km up to Coolock.


 
Our flagship motorway - EuroRoute 1 - has a speed limit of 60kph - only in Ireland.


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## Hoagy (22 Sep 2011)

redstar said:


> According to the Garda website, the GoSafe speed vans are supposed to be Hi Visibilty and clearly marked. I have seen unmarked RED vans (the cameras are clearly visible, and they park at the same place where the marked vans are usually parked).
> 
> Are these unmarked vans not official, and if so would fines issued from these vans be open to challenge ?


 
I think they're Garda vans, I've seen a red one with a Guard in it several times on the dual carriageway just north of Dundalk as you come down the hill from Newry.


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## roker (24 Sep 2011)

I have notice that some speed signs are hidden by overgrown trees and you are not aware until you get your fine through the door. 

They are not interested, they just want your money to pay for the the Gosafe contract. It's now a case of watch your speedo not the road. 

Does anyone know the legal situation regarding road work speed signs?

If you have a complaint, write to your TD, I have already done this.


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## ajapale (25 Sep 2011)

roker said:


> Does anyone know the legal situation regarding road work speed signs?



If the sign has a red circle around a speed limit then you are committing an offence if you exceed the stated limit

If the sign is black text on a rectangular white background then this is a cautionary advice. This type of sign is common at roadworks. These signs are used in the case of an unfinished road which might not have the neccessary skid resistance. They are also set up on a temporary basis to slow traffic down to protect the road workers, pedestrians and other vunerable road users.


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## markpb (25 Sep 2011)

ajapale said:


> If the sign has a red circle around a speed limit then you are committing an offence if you exceed the stated limit



I believe (but could be wrong) that even temporary speed limits have to be voted on at the local/road authority meeting and published in Iris Oifigiuil. There was an appeal about two years ago, lots of speeding fines were quashed and I think most councils are a lot more careful now.


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## ajapale (25 Sep 2011)

Yes, but even a temporary (duly established by the local authority) speed limit needs to have the limit within a red circle to be enforceable. The black on white limits at temporary roadworks are cautionary.


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## roker (27 Sep 2011)

There's a 3 mile stretch between Bandon and Innishannon with 55 km road works restrictions part of the way, but they do not have de-restriction after the road works, so you are technically still speeding for the whole 3 miles if you go over 55. This has to be an oversite and could catch you out.


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## ajapale (27 Sep 2011)

roker said:


> .. between Bandon and Innishannon with 55 km road works restrictions part of the way, but they do not have de-restriction after the road works, so you are technically still speeding for the whole 3 miles if you go over 55.



No, since these signs do not have a red circle around the speed limit they are cautionary and so they don't have to be de-restricted. The cautionary speed only applies to the stretch of road within the clearly defined roadworks (ie between the man at work signs, where the cones are).


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## roker (27 Sep 2011)

i should have said, these signs have the red circle


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## ajapale (27 Sep 2011)

Road speed limits in the Republic of Ireland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> *Cautionary speed limits*
> 
> The Minister for Transport issued a direction to road authorities  under section 95(16) of the Road Traffic Act 1961 in February 2007 with  respect to a range of non-regulatory traffic signs. Chapter 8 of the  Traffic Signs Manual was superseded by an updated version which allowed  for the erection of signage stating a cautionary speed limit in the  vicinity of Road Works. _These speed limits are purposely different from  legal speed limits and always display a speed limit that ends in 5, for  example 35 km/h (22 mph), 45 km/h (28 mph), etc_. They are not legally  binding on drivers but it is likely that in the event of a road traffic  accident that the issue of if they were being complied with, would be  taken into account.


If the limit ends with a "5" then it is a cautionary speed limit and not a regulatory (red circle) speed limit.

[broken link removed]

[broken link removed]


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## PaddyBloggit (28 Sep 2011)

Is the one roker refers to cautionary or regulatory when it has a red circle around it even though it ends with a 5?


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## ajapale (28 Sep 2011)

In the unlikely event that such a sign has a red circle and the speed that ends with a "5" then it is a non standard sign which does not comply with the Road Traffic Acts (road signs).


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## roker (28 Sep 2011)

Thanks ajapale, that clears it up, so I assume we can decide ourselves when the de-restriction applies.


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## ajapale (28 Sep 2011)

roker said:


> I assume we can decide ourselves when the de-restriction applies.



No, the "man at work" signs and the "man at work ends" indicate the extent of the roadworks. The cautionary speed limit appplies for the extent ususally about 500m max.

 and ends at the “_Críoch END_”.

It makes sense that you would progress slowly through roadworks as you have roadworkers and heavy plant working in close proximity to cars, busses and other vunerable road users such as pedestrians, bikers, equestrians etc. Also the permanent road wearing course surface or road markings may not have been applied yet leading to a risk of a skid etc.


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## onq (28 Sep 2011)

The difficulty appears to be where large stretches of road are subject to restrictions but no relevant works are taking place on them so people assume they can speed up.

I've come across many such temporary restrictions myself and they are so bad its bordering on entrapment.


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## ajapale (28 Sep 2011)

onq said:


> .. but no relevant works are taking place on them so people assume they can speed up.



In  the case of an unfinished road surface with a low skid resistance there  may be no apparent activity at all on the road but it is still highly  dangerous.

Also in the case of semi static road works such as  hedge cutting etc it may be neccessary to designate a length of road of  up to 2km as roadworks and have a cautionary speed limit.

It is  important to realise that if you exceed the cautionary limit you cannot  be "entrapped" for speeding however if an accident occurs and you were  exceeding the cautionary speed then you may deemed to have contributed  to the accident.

However I know of several locations where a  regulatory speed limit was imposed and remained in place years after the  original hazard had been removed rectified.


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## roker (28 Sep 2011)

In the case that I quoted, there was no men at work signs, and it was on an evening when there was no work going on


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## ajapale (29 Sep 2011)

roker said:


> There's a 3  mile stretch between Bandon and Innishannon with 55 km road works  restrictions part of the way, but they do not have de-restriction after  the road works, so you are technically still speeding for the whole 3  miles if you go over 55. This has to be an oversite and could catch you
> out.





roker said:


> In the case that I quoted, there was no men at work   signs, and it was on an evening when there was no work going  on



If the road works ahead sign (commonly called the man-at-work sign) is not present then the signage does not comply with  the provisions of chapter 8 of the road traffic signs manual. Any other orange signs or B&W plates have no meaning in the absence of the roadworks ahead sign.

Equally if a regulatory "red circle" sign exists with a speed ending with a 5 (or with out km/h) then it does not comply with the Road Traffic Act road signs manual.


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## Guns N Roses (29 Sep 2011)

ajapale said:


> it is important to realise that if you exceed the cautionary limit you cannot be "entrapped" for speeding however if an accident occurs and you were exceeding the cautionary speed then you may deemed to have contributed to the accident.


 
+ 1


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## night nav (29 Sep 2011)

roker said:


> In the case that I quoted, there was no men at work signs, and it was on an evening when there was no work going on


 the only thing about those signs which i have seen myself they are not permanant and cant figure out what kind of work is going on there also


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## ajapale (19 Oct 2011)

Seperate question split off. Please keep this thread to discuss :
 Visibility of GoSafe Cameras?  Inappropriate Speed limits: How are they set/amended?


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## Frank (21 Oct 2011)

Inappropriate speeds shooting fish in a barrel makes a mockery of the system.

Saw a Gardai speed van sitting west bound on the N4 on Sunday.

80 KPH all the way to Leixlip is insane for this road.


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## ajapale (21 Oct 2011)

OK but how does one go about getting a review of an inappropriate speed limit? or how does one go about objecting to the introduction of a new inappropriate speed limit?


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## Time (21 Oct 2011)

> how does one go about getting a review of an inappropriate speed limit?


Bug you local councillors to review it.


> how does one go about objecting to the introduction of a new inappropriate speed limit?


See above.


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## ajapale (22 Oct 2011)

Time said:


> Bug you local councillors to review it.
> 
> See above.



Do local authority councellors have the power to change / influence decisions on inappropriate speed limits?


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## Time (22 Oct 2011)

Yes. They do, only they can change speed limits.


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## ajapale (11 Feb 2012)

I think the minister is carring out some kind of review does any one know anything about it?


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## ajapale (11 Feb 2012)

_*TheAA invite submissions for *__*‘Ireland's craziest speed limit’.*_ 

From their blog: [broken link removed]
Keep them coming in to publicaffairs@aaireland.ie. Photos are helpful but just send in the details in plain text if that is easier.


It seems the NRA are responsible for speedlimits on the Primary and Secondary roads and the local councils are responsible for the rest.


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