# URGENT: Help needed on package holiday



## biggerry (25 May 2005)

Greetings fellow AAM´ers from a sunny Algarve!!



Apologies in advance for the long post. I want to try and make things as clear as possible for you so you can give me your valuable advice.



When Mrs. Biggerry and I booked our holiday back in February, we chose this resort as it offered a Kiddies Club (we have 3 kids). Before we paid for the holiday we confirmed with the travel operator (Toolin Travel in Rathfarnham) that the kiddies club would be happening when we were there and that there was no extra cost for this.  They confirmed that this was the case and we paid for the holiday (2050 euro).



The holiday started last Sunday (22nd) without any hitches.  The check-in was fine at the airport; the flight left on time; we were met at the airport by the rep and delivered to the complex; the check-in happened without any problems.  Unfortunately, things took a turn for the worse then.  When we asked about the start time of the kiddies club, we were informed that the kiddies club wasn’t open yet.  When we said that we were told that the club was supposed to be happening, the lady at reception said that we would have to take it up with the rep (who wouldn’t be at the complex until Monday evening @ 6 p.m.)



We met the rep on the Monday night and addressed the issue with her.  She said that Panorama didn’t operate a kiddies club in the resort but that it was offered by the hotel.  I then told her about what was on the holiday brochure and what the travel agent confirmed for us.  I told her that under Irish consumer legislation, it was illegal to offer something and then not have it delivered on.  She said that she’d have to investigate this and said that she’d get back to us.  



I went up to meet the rep on Tuesday morning to book a couple of trips as we just didn’t want to sit by the pool all day.  We booked a trip for Wednesday and a trip for Friday.



On Tuesday evening when we returned from the pool there was a fax left under our door from the rep.  In this she offered to move us to a complex in another resort. She asked us to call a number if we were happy to accept this.  She also asked us to pay for a taxi and that the cost would be reimbursed to us when we get to the new resort. 



Before committing to anything, I checked out the resort on the internet, and it’s graded as a 3 star resort while our resort is a 4 star.  When I found this out, I called the number and spoke to a different rep (Noeleen from Belfast who was very sympathetic towards our plight).  I explained that I found out we were being asked to move to a 3 star resort and that I wasn’t willing to move unless we were going to be compensated in some way.  She said that she couldn’t offer anything without first speaking to our rep and our reps manager.  As it was almost 7 p.m. and the office was closing at 7, she said that it was unlikely that she’d have an answer for me.



When we got back from the trip today (which cost 161 euro) there was a message left for us from our rep which said that she could meet us on THURSDAY @ 4 p.m. to discuss the matter.  This wasn’t acceptable, so I called the office again and spoke to the person in charge.  She was aware of our issue and said that as we’d paid for a 4 star complex we couldn’t be offered a lower start complex in exchange.  She said that she also knew that we were going on a trip on Friday and they were prepared to pay the entry price of one child as compensation (this works out at 17.50 euro!!)  



I told her there was absolutely NO way that I was going to accept this.  I informed her (again) that the reason we booked the particular resort we were in was because of the kiddies club.  I told her that we could have got a lot of cheaper deals (without the kiddies club), but we went for this one due to the kiddies club.  She then asked me what sort of compensation I was looking for, and I was loosing the rag with her, I told her that I’d be looking for 1000 euro as compensation.  She said that this was out of the question (which I expected).  I told her that there was no point in me meeting with the rep on Thursday afternoon as what she was going to offer was a joke.  I told her I’d be pursuing this when I got back to Dublin.  She said that I’d still have to meet the rep and sign a document to say that I refused their offer.  I’m going to do this. 



My main point is that we booked a holiday based on the fact that there was a kiddies club advertised.  When we arrived, it wasn’t available.  Is the small claims court the best way to proceed with this?



Any other suggestions – advice on how to deal with the rep at the meeting on Thursday?  I’ll try and access this post before the meeting.  I’ll update it after the meeting also to let you know how I got on.


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## ClubMan (25 May 2005)

Collect as much evidence as you can and document (including photographs if relevant) as much as you can. Make your complaint clearly and politely to the rep. If they don't rectify matters (if that's possible) while abroad you have up to four weeks after return to follow up the complaint with the travel agent. The _Small Claims Court _might be the best bet if you can't get satisfaction otherwise and you think that you have a legitimate claim. Here's the story of my own package holiday saga from last year for what it's worth.


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## RainyDay (25 May 2005)

Might be worth phoning the Dublin travel agent tomorrow to ensure they get on the case.


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## Marion (26 May 2005)

Put everything in writing. Document what has happened and carbon copy all interested parties.

Marion


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## biggerry (26 May 2005)

Thanks for all the advice!

FYI RainyDay, I spent most of Monday on to Toolin Travel and they contacted the Panorama head office in Dublin, but they (Panorama) said that they werent interested as were in the resort and that we'd have to deal with the rep!

If I am offered compensation at the meeting this afternoon, what should I look for?  As I said before, the holiday cost us 2050 euro.  I dont expect a full refund as the resort itself is excellent.


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## ClubMan (26 May 2005)

biggerry said:
			
		

> If I am offered compensation at the meeting this afternoon, what should I look for? As I said before, the holiday cost us 2050 euro. I dont expect a full refund as the resort itself is excellent.


 
 I'd be inclined to just state the case with as much supporting material (evidence, references to the relevant sections of the booking form, _IATA _code of conduct, legislation, statutory consumer body guides etc.) and not necessarily feel pressured into making a decision one way or another. You may not get satisfaction while abroad and may need to follow this up when you return. For what it's worth I found the following resources useful when stating my claim (which even the _Concorde MD _complimented me on for clarity and consistency!). 

Booking contract - this should be included with your tickets etc. Check for clauses covering material changes to the holiday and notification of these to the customer. If you can't find your own while abroad then check some of the other Irish tour operator websites for sample contracts as they are generally very similar across all operators.   
[broken link removed] - this also has clauses covering material alterations to holidays and when they should be notified to the customer. Note that the _ITAA _have an arbitration process to which your booking form may refer but which (I think) binds all parties to non disclosure of the result.   
[broken link removed]   
[broken link removed]   
[broken link removed] - the governing legislation in this context as far as I know. 
 In our case we didn't get what we wanted (at least a full refund) but we did get about 40% of the cost back. Having considered the matter and solicited advice here we decided that it was prudent to take this rather than look for more perhaps through the _Small Claims Court_.

Hope this helps. Good luck with everything. Try to enjoy the rest of your break in spite of this annoyance. I know I got very stressed out over our incident and it was very much wasted energy!


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## zag (26 May 2005)

Get details in writing from the hotel/club provider regarding their announced opening dates for the kiddies club.

z


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## Vanilla (26 May 2005)

AND - make sure you get a copy of anything you sign.


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## RainyDay (26 May 2005)

biggerry said:
			
		

> FYI RainyDay, I spent most of Monday on to Toolin Travel and they contacted the Panorama head office in Dublin, but they (Panorama) said that they werent interested as were in the resort and that we'd have to deal with the rep!


Don't accept this brush off. You paid your money to Toolin, and they have the legal responsibility to provide the relevant service to you (unless there is some special legislation that covers holidays compared to the normal Sale of Goods Act. It's up to Toolin to chase Panorama or the rep or whoever - but they owe you the service, and it's them you'll be taking your small claims case against.

If (for example) you buy a dodgy Philips TV from Dixons, your claim is against Dixons, not Philips.

Take lots of pictures/camcorder shots to show how the 3 star isn't up the standard of the 4 star. Try contacting the RTE radio 1 consumer rights show (Can't remember the name, but you'll find it on RTE.ie.


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## ClubMan (26 May 2005)

RainyDay said:
			
		

> Try contacting the RTE radio 1 consumer rights show (Can't remember the name, but you'll find it on RTE.ie.



Do you mean [broken link removed]?


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## eliza (26 May 2005)

Panaroma Brochure said:
			
		

> Many of the clubs may operate in high season only. Please note these clubs operate at the discretion of the owner and as a result the operation of clubs could change without notice.



I don't want to put a dampener on the situation but I don't think you have much of a case against Panorama - most kiddies clubs only run during the school holidays. However, I do think you have a case against Toolin Travel.


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## ClubMan (29 May 2005)

Do you think that _biggerry _went for the _IATA _arbitration option with its non-disclosure clause?


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## RainyDay (29 May 2005)

ClubMan said:
			
		

> Do you think that _biggerry _went for the _IATA _arbitration option with its non-disclosure clause?


Do you mean the ITAA? I don't see any mention of non-disclosure in relation to [broken link removed]. Do they hide this important detail?

Gerry might be interested to check out one of the benefits of using an ITAA agent, according to their home page;




> Travel Agents provide after sales service. We’re there for you if you have a problem or if there’s an airline strike or weather disruption or a change of plans or whatever life throws at you!


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## ClubMan (29 May 2005)

Sorry - _IATA _not _ITAA_! The booking form for our problematic _Concorde _package holiday to _Croatia _mentioned the possibility of using the _IATA _arbritration process to deal with customer complaints and stated that availing of it would require the customer to adhere to a non-disclosure agreement. I'll try and root it out if I get a chance so that I can post the exact wording.


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## gargamel (30 May 2005)

Due to the trouble you've endured here you've got my vote.

Hearing the way you've been treated by Toolin, 
I won't be booking anything through Toolin ever again.


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## biggerry (30 May 2005)

Hi guys,

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you.  After I met with the rep on Thursday evening, the only PC with net access was broken  so I didn't get a chance to update the post.

At the meeting, the rep offered to refund me one childs place to ZooMarine.  This cost €14.50 (and not €17.50 as I indicated earlier).  In addition to this, she also offered us a free trip to Slide & Splash.  The cost of this was €80.  In total they were offering us €94.50 as compensation.  I politely refused this offer so we went ahead and filled out the Customer Service Form.  

On the back of this form it says 

"This customer Service Report form is for internal use only and must be followed up in writing within 28 days of your return to the UK, to the appropriate addresses below (addresses are listed)

Please quote your full holiday details and it would be of assistance if you would send a copy of this form together with your holiday invoice with your letter.

Your letter will normally be acknowledged within 7 - 14 days of receipt and depending on the enquiries that must be made, our full reply should be despatched within 28 days"

My next question is what do we do next??

As you know, we booked the holiday package with Toolin Travel, so should we direct our complaint to Toolin Travel or should we follow up with Panorama per the instructions on the back of the Customer Service Form?

FYI: Here's the link the apartments we were staying in.  As you can see under the "Families and Children" section, there's no reference to the kids club happening between particular dates: [broken link removed]


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## ClubMan (30 May 2005)

If you think that you have a legitimate complaint the I would be inclined to follow it up with the travel agent as your primary point of contact in the first place. Put your complaint in writing and maybe even register the letter. Do this within 28 days of returning. That at least gets the ball rolling. Try and keep records of all communications (in writing is best).


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## RainyDay (30 May 2005)

I'd start with Panorama, if only to have the fun of quoting the ITAA website to them ("Travel Agents provide after sales service. We’re there for you if you have a problem or if there’s an airline strike or weather disruption or a change of plans or whatever life throws at you! ") and watching their reaction.


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## ClubMan (30 May 2005)

I would have assumed that, like in other purchase scenarios, it was the retailer (in this case the travel agent) who had the primary duty of care to the customer in the event of complaints and being referred to the tour operator would be akin to a retailer disclaiming responsibility and telling the customer to deal with the manufacturer of goods sold. This is the basis on which I suggested starting with the travel agent. It may do no harm but I would be wary of bypassing the retailer and going straight to the tour operator just in case it jeopardises any later complaint to the former. If in doubt get advice from the _ODCA _or _ECC_. Coincidentally, I see from statistics published in today's _Indo _that something like 25% of the cases raised by consumers with the _ECC _and/or _ODCA _relate to package holidays.


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## eliza (31 May 2005)

*Re: Terms andconditions*

Even on a website there are TERMS AND CONDITIONS which you have to specifically agree to before confirming a booking.

15. THE BROCHURE/WEB SITE
All information contained in the Organiser's brochure or web-site has been checked for accuracy and is correct at the time of going to press or publication. However, attention must be drawn to the fact that there can be occasions when facilities are not available due, for example, to weather conditions or lack of support. Some facilities may only be available at certain times. Some facilities may incur a local charge by the accommodation management such as cots, highchairs, fitness centres, sport facilities, safety deposit boxes, sun beds/umbrellas, air-conditioning etc. If the Consumer feels that any of the facilities mentioned in the brochure or web site are fundamental to the enjoyment of the Package, write to the Organiser immediately for information of the latest known situation.

I still think you need to take your case to Toolin Travel.


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## zag (31 May 2005)

It is worth noting the following  "All information contained in the Organiser's brochure or web-site has been checked for accuracy and is correct at the time of going to press or publication"

It is most likely that the information was not correct at the time of going to press unless the Hotel subsequently decided not to open the kids club until after the date of your holiday.

z


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## Erith (31 May 2005)

I know this is anti-help but it brings back painful memories of my experience with Panorama in Tunisia. Awful, awful company. Best of luck.


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## tall chapy (1 Jun 2005)

Biggerry
Clubman's advice is good.
With all disputes try and take reasonable approach.
As everyone else has said document everything.
Your problem is really in 2 parts. The first being, dealing with the Panorama Rep. and secondly dealing with Toolin Travel.
Travel holidays problems slightly differ from physical articles that are purchased, you must deal with the seller (Toolin) and the 'manufacturer' (Panorama). Give the Panorama Rep a reasonable chance to rectify the problem. So far they have scored zero offering you a 3 star. To me this is good enough to say that you have given them reasonable chance to rectify the problem. You may also infer that they are admitting liability by offering different accomodation. A question I would ask of Toolin would be to see if Panorama told them that the Kiddies Club would be open. 



> Before we paid for the holiday we confirmed with the travel operator (Toolin Travel in Rathfarnham) that the kiddies club would be happening when we were there and that there was no extra cost for this. They confirmed that this was the case


I assume that this was given verbally.



> we booked the holiday package with Toolin Travel, so should we direct our complaint to Toolin Travel or should we follow up with Panorama per the instructions on the back of the Customer Service Form?


You should do both. All documentation and possibly a separate report from the Rep is sent back. Possibly to Panorama and the travel agent. But in the end it will be the travel agent that forks out the money.
When you get home put your complaint in writing to Toolin Travel. Give the basic highlights package in the letter. They will use the information sent back by the rep and decide whether your complaint is valid. To me your complaint is valid. 
As for how much to claim, to me there are 3 routes to go.

Give them all the receipts for all the entertainment you had to provided to you Kids while on holidays and any other secondary expenses. Credit Card bill maybe a good idea.   
Work out a figure, again reasonable of what you think you should get back. If the 3 kids were of Kiddies Club age. I would start at the figure it cost for the 3 kids for the holiday and gradually move do down to an agreed level.   
Leave the ball in their court and see what they offer. 
 If their offer was decent I would take it and save the headache.
Best of Luck


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## ClubMan (1 Jun 2005)

Just to follow up on my earlier assertion that the _ITAA _arbitration scheme may bind participants to confidentiality/non-disclosure I thought that this was the case (in particular in relation to our aforementioned _Concorde _incident) but I have been unable to verify this. I think that I saw the possibility of non-disclosure mentioned somewhere but it doesn't seem to be on the _ITAA _website or the _Concorde _booking contract/form. Apologies for any confusion caused.


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## biggerry (2 Jun 2005)

Thanks for the advice Tall Chappy.

I'm just starting on the letter to Toolin now.  I'll update this post with the outcome.


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## biggerry (24 Jul 2005)

I just want to update you on how this is progressing.  I submitted my complaint to Toolin Travel (Rathfarnham Office) on June 9.  I got them to sign a letter to confirm that they received my complaint and I got them to put the company stamp on the letter too. 


After 4 weeks (Thursday July 7) I heard nothing, so I called up Toolin Travel to see what was happening.  I was told that they're "very busy" and that they'd get back on to us.  I wasn't happy with this reply, so I mailed the ITAA.  Toolin called us the next day (July 8th), to say that we should have a reply by the end of the following week (July 15th).

I heard nothing by July 15th (surprise surprise!), so I called the Rathfarnham office again Friday (July 22nd).  They said that the person who deals with customer complaints is just back from 2 week's holiday, and is "catching up on things".  I asked for this person's name (Cara) and number and was given this.  I called Cara but was told by the receptionist that she wouldn't be in until after 11.  I asked the receptionist for an e-mail address for the MD of Toolin and was given this.

A few minutes later Cara called and explained that there was a new EU directive published a few months ago which dealt with flight delays, and this is what was taking up most of her time.  She also explained that with this new directive, tour operators have up to 8 weeks to deal with complaints.

So that's where I am at the moment.  By Aug 4th, I should have a response to my complaint.  I'll post an update when I get this.


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## Marion (24 Jul 2005)

The legislation which is mentioned is regulation [broken link removed]

It is a short 7 page pdf document. We should all familiarise ouselves with it.

Marion


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## bond-007 (25 Jul 2005)

So your saying that Aerlingus or anyother EU carrier must pay compo whereas Delta or any non EU carrier can ignore these rules?


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## biggerry (6 Aug 2005)

August 4th has come and gone and no reply from Toolin Travel (surprise surprise).  I called them on Friday and asked to speak to Cara, but she's on holiday's until Monday


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## biggerry (10 Aug 2005)

I received an e-mail from Toolin Travel today. Here's what it says

Dear Mr. BIGGERRY,

Further to previous correspondence with regard to difficulties which you experienced whilst recently in Portugal.

Regretfully as yet I have been unable to obtain a response from Panorama Holidays in regard to same.  I have sent them a fax today informing them of your dissatisfaction and I would hope that they will act upon same immediately.

You can of course go ahead with making an application via either the Small Claims procedure or Arbitration ( Small claims has the lowest costs ) in the interim.

I will however endeavor to bring this matter to a close as soon as possible.

Thanking you for your co-operation.

Yours faithfully,

Cara Palmer.
Customer Care.
If  I take a case to the Small Clairms Court should it be against Toolin or Panorama?


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## tall chapy (10 Aug 2005)

Keep e-mailing, keep calling. Pop in when ever you are down that direction.
Surely the 8 weeks to deal with the situation began when you lodged your first complaint.
If you desire, contact Panorama direct, ask the have they receive a Rep's report about our complaint. At least this way you know that the is a report about your complaint.

Though what you may receive may not compensate you as much as the effort you put in, it will be invaluable experience if anything happens again.


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## biggerry (21 Oct 2005)

Just thought I'd update this thread with how this is progressing.  


I finally got a reply from Toolin Travel on October 4.  They forwarded me a letter that they got from Panorama which basically said that Panorama had offered us alternative accommodation. As we refused this offer, there is nothing they could do for us.  When I read this my temper hit the roof. I decided there and then that the Small Claims Court was the only way to deal with this (I should have gone to the Small Claims Court earlier, but with the kids going back to school, workload and family bereavement, I never got around to it).

I wrote back to Toolin and Panorama and informed them that I never refused to move.  I pointed out to them that in my original complaint to Toolin I clearly stated that I was prepared to move but that I'd be looking for compensation as they were asking us to move from a 4 star resort to a 3 star resort.  I also informed them that I was pursuing this through the Small Claims Court. I posted my Small Claims document at the same time as I sent my reply's to Toolin and Panorama.

Last Monday (October 17th) I received another letter from Panoram offering me €225 to cover the costs of the trips we took. I replied and politely told them to stick the offer wherever they felt was the best place to put it!  I told them that I didn't want to hear from them anymore and was leaving it up to the Small Claims Court clerk to decide.  I expect to hear something in the next few weeks and will let you know the outcome.


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## biggerry (16 May 2006)

Hi there,

Just want to update you on this.  The hearing date for the Small Claims Court was today.  

In the past few weeks I got offers of €600 and €850 from Panorama to settle.  I refused both.  I attended the Small Claims Court today and the judge awarded me 50% of the holiday price.  This was my first time to go through this process and I was surprised at how long it took but it was worth it in the end.  

To clarify some previous points:
1. The case was taken against *Panorama* and not Toolin Travel.  
2. Any comments that I made about the delay in Toolin Travel getting back to me in previous posts were not deliberate on the part of Toolin.  They followed up with me when they got a response from Panorama.


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## ClubMan (16 May 2006)

Well done on pursuing this and getting a better deal than was on offer otherwise.


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## almo (17 May 2006)

I think this highlights the problem of packages and indirect travel.  Last summer we had huge problems from clients and friends who were over in Croatia.  They had lost luggage on flights, 12 hour delays (with no assistance and support while sitting in an airport for all the time) and 1 instance of lying to someone about their booking, being caught out, putting them onto a flight into an airport 400kms away, promising to organise a free lift to their original destination, then double crossing them and trying to drop them off in the middle of nowhere.  All the bookings went through one very solid tour agency, but they were getting the seats off the aforementioned Concorde, whose on the ground and process were awful.  So for us to get recompense we couldn't shoot the messenger, we'd to go after the crowd who were meant to be in charge!


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