# Recording without consenting



## Ualtar (1 Nov 2020)

Hi guys,

I rented the spared room in my house. I made a License Agreement as recommended by Threshold and everything was going fine until I started having problems with the guy.

I won't detail the problems because it doesn't matter. When I said I didn't want him in the house anymore, he played in his iPhone a conversation of mine with a friend who was having dinner at my house. Exactly that day he wasn't around. Then he told me that he had been recording conversations of me and people who had been at my house for 2 months. I have been doing online therapy since my parents died at the beginning of the year and maybe he can have recordings of these conversations with my therapist.

I have his confessions in my email and in Tesco's voice mailbox. I've already reported to Garda and on Tuesday I'll make a statement.

What he did is illegal, but I don't know if it falls under Data Protection law. I've searched several places and I can't find anything. Does anybody have any idea what I could do legally against this guy?

Advice are welcomed.


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## AndroidMan (1 Nov 2020)

My first step would be to kick him out.


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## Ualtar (1 Nov 2020)

AndroidMan said:


> My first step would be to kick him out.


I already kicked him out on the October 18th and changed the lock.


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## SparkRite (1 Nov 2020)

Ualtar said:


> Advice are welcomed.



Advice towards achieving what exactly?
What do you wish to do at this stage, now that he's gone?
Has he threatened you or family members, intimating that he may have more recordings, that could cause
other than embarrassment ?

If, none of the above, then personally, (while it is galling) I would just move on and forget about it.


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## Ualtar (1 Nov 2020)

SparkRite said:


> Has he threatened you or family members, intimating that he may have more recordings, that could cause
> other than embarrassment ?



Yes, he threatened me in an email sent on 28th October. He claims to have other recordings, including conversations between me and my therapist. Garda has already been warned.

I want him to say what was recorded (in the presence of a judge perhaps?) and be forced to delete everything he illegally recorded from me and the people who attended my home.


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## Thirsty (1 Nov 2020)

Have gardai told you they are bringing charges?


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## SparkRite (1 Nov 2020)

Ualtar said:


> Yes, he threatened me in an email sent on 28th October



Threatened to do what, exactly?
Release the recordings, if so, to who?
With all due respect, who would be interested in listening them?

Look, I'm being devils advocate here, but as I said, besides being maybe somewhat embarrassing what damage can he do ?
Unless there is something you are not telling us here.


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## AndroidMan (1 Nov 2020)

Ualtar said:


> I already kicked him out on the October 18th and changed the lock.


Good.. Draw the line under it.. He sounds a bit unhinged and you are best rid of him.


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## Ualtar (1 Nov 2020)

Thirsty said:


> Have gardai told you they are bringing charges?


No, but I will ask them on Tuesday.


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## Thirsty (1 Nov 2020)

Not sure whats wrong with Monday.

But either way, if they are bringing criminal charges I'd be worried about too much being said on a public forum


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## Thirsty (1 Nov 2020)

SparkRite said:


> Threatened to do what, exactly?
> Release the recordings, if so, to who?
> With all due respect, who would be interested in listening them?
> 
> ...


I think you are underestimating both the feelings of violation and the harm that could be caused to the OP.


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## Ualtar (1 Nov 2020)

SparkRite said:


> Threatened to do what, exactly?
> Release the recordings, if so, to who?
> With all due respect, who would be interested in listening them?
> 
> ...


He got a protective order from his ex-girlfriend and I witnessed the aggression. I will be her witness in February during the hearing court.
*As I said, I will not go into detail here about what happened.*

My post is about the illegal recording of very personal things he may have between me and my therapist. I simply don't want him with any recording of me that I didn't consent regardless of what he will do with it.

Does this fall under Data Protection law?
I've already sent them an email and still haven't received a reply. If not, is it a criminal offence? Civil matter? That's the kind of advice I'm looking for. 

I appreciate your answers, but I'm not looking for a devil advocate.


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## Ualtar (1 Nov 2020)

Thirsty said:


> Not sure whats wrong with Monday.



I have an appointment with the Garda officer who is following the case of the email threats on Tuesday. Nothing wrong with Monday but the appointment is Tuesday.


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## SparkRite (1 Nov 2020)

Ualtar said:


> He got a protective order from his ex-girlfriend and I witnessed the aggression. I will be her witness in February during the hearing court.



Ah so, as I suspected there is more to this than originally posted.




Thirsty said:


> I think you are underestimating both the feelings of violation and the harm that could be caused to the OP.



No I don't think I am, as I already stated


SparkRite said:


> (while it is galling)


But that's all they are, feelings. And we don't know what 'harm',  if indeed any, could be caused by the audio recordings. Anyway, the 'plot' thickens.


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## Thirsty (1 Nov 2020)

SparkRite said:


> ...that's all they are, feelings


Emotional harm is just as damaging as physical harm.


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## Jazz01 (2 Nov 2020)

Ualtar said:


> he played in his iPhone a conversation of mine with a friend who was having dinner at my house. Exactly that day he wasn't around.



I would be concerned that there could be recording devices still in the house. If he wasn't there on the day, then how was that conversation recorded? Did you have shared WiFi in the house? If so, change the password on that as soon as possible. Then it's a matter of going around each room to see if there is something that is still capturing conversations.


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## Leo (2 Nov 2020)

Were the conversations with the therapist in-person or held over the phone? Recordings of phone conversations are protected by the Interception of Postal Packets and Telecommunications (Regulation) Act 1993, breaches can attract pretty hefty fines.

Recoding of conversations can certainly be a Data Protection issue, but it sounds like there's potentially an issue of harassment or threatening behaviour here. Talk to the Gardai and perhaps consult a solicitor, best not divulge too much here in the meantime.


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## Ualtar (2 Nov 2020)

Jazz01 said:


> Did you have shared WiFi in the house? If so, change the password on that as soon as possible. Then it's a matter of going around each room to see if there is something that is still capturing conversations.


He had his own internet. He decided not to share it, but after a few weeks having problems with my internet, the Vodafone technical support found out he got my Wi-Fi password accessing my modem settings. I have never changed the password to access it and It is displayed at the bottom of the modem. He had 03 iPhones, 01 MacBook Pro and another device connected and draining my internet speed. I changed all passwords and started monitoring who gained access to my network using Vodafone Gigabox App.



Jazz01 said:


> If he wasn't there on the day, then how was that conversation recorded?


I believe he left one of his iPhones hidden somewhere and with the voice record app activated. I just guess.
One of my neighbour helped me to scan all the house looking for any device left behind. This is why I decided to write the post looking for some advice about what could I do against him for recording my house or maybe still capturing conversations. I cannot force him to tell the true or hand over the recordings. I don't know if falls under Data Protection.


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## Ualtar (2 Nov 2020)

Leo said:


> Were the conversations with the therapist in-person or held over the phone? Recordings of phone conversations are protected by the Interception of Postal Packets and Telecommunications (Regulation) Act 1993, breaches can attract pretty hefty fines.
> 
> Recoding of conversations can certainly be a Data Protection issue, but it sounds like there's potentially an issue of harassment or threatening behaviour here. Talk to the Gardai and perhaps consult a solicitor, best not divulge too much here in the meantime.



I speak with my therapist using Zoom App. 
Thank you Leo. I will speak with Garda tomorrow


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## Jazz01 (2 Nov 2020)

@Ualtar be very well prepared for your discussion with the gardaí. Write everything down before you go down to your appointment. Specific details, dates / times / events etc., you will be making a statement so be 100% accurate in everything you say... 

Best of luck with it all - this is a nightmare to be going through...

Also, with advances in technology, I wouldn't be surprised if you found additional listening (or even image recording) devices. Some of these things are quite small & easily hidden. Personally, I would be going through every square inch of each and every room looking for such devices.


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## Ualtar (2 Nov 2020)

Jazz01 said:


> @Ualtar be very well prepared for your discussion with the gardaí. Write everything down before you go down to your appointment. Specific details, dates / times / events etc., you will be making a statement so be 100% accurate in everything you say...
> 
> Best of luck with it all - this is a nightmare to be going through...
> 
> Also, with advances in technology, I wouldn't be surprised if you found additional listening (or even image recording) devices. Some of these things are quite small & easily hidden. Personally, I would be going through every square inch of each and every room looking for such devices.



I have a two pages word file with all dates, times and events.
While he was here, we sort of freaked out thinking everything was being recorded. It is/was a horrible feeling open your house in good faith for someone you think you know and at the end you have all these problems to handle it.

Thanks God he made a mistake draining my internet connection and everything came to the light. Otherwise, we would probably still be living with him.


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## Jazz01 (2 Nov 2020)

Ualtar said:


> Thanks God he made a mistake draining my internet connection and everything came to the light. Otherwise, we would probably still be living with him.


Kinda wonder - is this the first time he has done this kind of thing or just the first time he got caught. Might be doing the same thing at where ever he's staying now


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## Páid (2 Nov 2020)

Check your phone for any apps you don't recognise.


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## DeeKie (2 Nov 2020)

Unfortunately the data protection laws may not be much good to you because of the household exemption. However there is Article 8 CFR, the constitution and maybe the lease he signed? Do you have anything on him? I’d try to find something


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## Ualtar (2 Nov 2020)

DeeKie said:


> Unfortunately the data protection laws may not be much good to you because of the household exemption. However there is Article 8 CFR, the constitution and maybe the lease he signed? Do you have anything on him? I’d try to find something



Yes, I have a License Agreement because he rented a spared room in my house, not the entire property.


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## cremeegg (2 Nov 2020)

For your own peace of mind just move on. That’s my advice.


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## DeeKie (2 Nov 2020)

cremeegg said:


> For your own peace of mind just move on. That’s my advice.


Hard to move on when some nut job has highly intimate information about you and others to be fair. Who knows what he will do with it. He’s threatening the OP.


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## Thirsty (2 Nov 2020)

IANAL

My understanding is that recording your own conversation with another person(s) is not illegal.  It is however illegal to share or distribute it without the consent of all parties.  Extortion is also a criminal offence.


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## Leo (3 Nov 2020)

DeeKie said:


> Unfortunately the data protection laws may not be much good to you because of the household exemption.



I believe that is intended to cover normal household activities such as the family correspondence and the keeping of phone / address books, allows parents to maintain medical records, etc.. The payment of rent here creates a landlord/licensee relationship that likely brings this context outside the remit. I don't think it extends to secret recordings of therapy sessions, and it certainly doesn't allow for the publication of any data that might otherwise be considered exempt.


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## Ualtar (3 Nov 2020)

I went to Garda Station to make the statement as scheduled.
It's appalling what I had to hear from the Garda officer.
He read the email with the threats and assumed that *the guy was not threatening to physically hurt me*. I had to point out that the he had no way of guaranteeing this. He probably didn't give a damn about all the threats left in my voice mailbox.

*The officer said that recording someone else is not a crime.* That he is recorded on the street constantly and cannot stop it. At that time, I asked him if he was kidding. Wanting to compare a civil servant on duty being recorded by citizens with an individual recording another individual and using that to threaten physically and psychologically. I had to quote the Interception of Postal Packets and Telecommunications (Regulation) Act 1993 that Leo mentioned earlier.

I came out of there more frustrated than I arrived. Now I understand why my former housemate was so confident that the protective measure and other things in progress against him will come to nothing.

My whole life I've never had to deal with Gardaí, but this officer is either new or he thinks I'm too dumb.
Pity, nobody higher rank was there at the moment I was giving my statement, but I will address this situation as soon as possible. I am fuming!


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## shipibo (3 Nov 2020)

Ualtar said:


> I went to Garda Station to make the statement as scheduled.
> It's appalling what I had to hear from the Garda officer.
> He read the email with the threats and assumed that *the guy was not threatening to physically hurt me*. I had to point out that the he had no way of guaranteeing this. He probably didn't give a damn about all the threats left in my voice mailbox.
> 
> ...



Ualtar,

      First off, condolences on your loss, and hopefully the grief is easing, time is a great healer


      The Gardai example is incorrect. In his scenario, he was aware he was being recorded, so can adapt to it.

  Both parties in that example were aware of recording. In your scenario, neither party was aware of recording, it was an outside party without permission

       Check out TJ McIntyre website to see if anything fits your criterion, also if you are contacting a solicitor , check his credentials in Digital Law, most have ZERO knowledge

http://www.tjmcintyre.com/search/label/surveillance

From a practical perspective, the perp could have backed up the data to multiple drives, cloud platforms or printed the conversations ... The Gardai do not have the resources to read metadata on initial device to see if data was replicated to other device, and  find that device , and on ....

Any further help, do not hesitate to respond


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## Ualtar (3 Nov 2020)

crumdub12 said:


> Ualtar,
> 
> First off, condolences on your loss, and hopefully the grief is easing, time is a great healer



Thank you crumdub12. It is mix of feelings when I think the guy could have recordings between me and my therapist and he knows very personal things about me, my parents, my family. He could also be bluffing just to torment me, but I'll never be sure if it's not through legal channels.



crumdub12 said:


> The Gardai example is incorrect. In his scenario, he was aware he was being recorded, so can adapt to it.
> Both parties in that example were aware of recording. In your scenario, neither party was aware of recording, it was an outside party without permission
> 
> Check out TJ McIntyre website to see if anything fits your criterion, also if you are contacting a solicitor , check his credentials in Digital Law, most have ZERO knowledge
> http://www.tjmcintyre.com/search/label/surveillance



The example given by the officer only demonstrates the lack of knowledge and training that is given to Gardaí officers. They even do not know the basic Constitutional Rights.
I read some posts but none of them match my case. Anyway, thank you very much. I will contact a solicitor and keep you guys posted.


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## Leo (3 Nov 2020)

Ualtar said:


> He could also be bluffing just to torment me, but I'll never be sure if it's not through legal channels.




I think you need to accept that even the full force of legal channels are unlikely to fully establish what he did or did not record. Data that has been digitised can be copied and moved many times to many places with little or no record. Most devices will not retain logs of the full details of access or movement of data. Those that do can easily be modified by someone who knows what they're doing.



Ualtar said:


> The example given by the officer only demonstrates the lack of knowledge and training that is given to Gardaí officers. They even do not know the basic Constitutional Rights.
> I read some posts but none of them match my case. Anyway, thank you very much. I will contact a solicitor and keep you guys posted.



A solicitor is likely your best bet for impartial advice here. The Gardai often don't go out of their way to do much more than put on record your complaint in issues such as this, but then, their focus is criminal law and some of what you're talking about here is civil. Unless you package up a nice neat bundle of evidence of a breach of criminal law there is little they will do.  For instance, with reference to the Interception of Postal Packets and Telecommunications Act, that does not protect Zoom or other VC platforms, it hasn't evolved with the times.


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## Slim (3 Nov 2020)

This Irish Times article has some useful information.
TLDR. While it is not illegal for a private citizen to record another private citizen, there may be recourse in civil court for breach of privacy. Rules are different for employers, of course. In the OP's case, the tenant did not breach criminal law but may be liable for civil action for breach of privacy. There may also be grounds for civil action for harassment. 








						Is it legal to record someone without their consent?
					

'Doing an Omarosa' is as easy as opening an app. But are you breaking the law?




					www.irishtimes.com


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## peemac (3 Nov 2020)

Ualtar said:


> I went to Garda Station to make the statement as scheduled.
> It's appalling what I had to hear from the Garda officer.
> He read the email with the threats and assumed that *the guy was not threatening to physically hurt me*. I had to point out that the he had no way of guaranteeing this. He probably didn't give a damn about all the threats left in my voice mailbox.
> 
> ...


As I read down the thread I could have written what the Garda response would be and it would have been exactly as you found it. 

I unfortunately have first hand experience of utter incompetence and inexperience of gardai when it comes to mental health issues and anything within that sphere. 

Incompetent, uninterested and downright patronising is a very apt description. 

You will not get anywhere unless you can escalate it to detective level. 

I would do a report to his ex girlfriend and allow her send it to her solicitor, but I really think you will get nowhere with the gardai as it simply is not something that they have any understanding or empathy for.


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## shipibo (3 Nov 2020)

Two cases in Irish Law regarding " Intercept " ( Telecommunication message where sender / receiver have not given consent to record ) are below









						State sought to defend phone tapping despite conceding its illegality
					

Chief state solicitor wrote that Irish Times report rendered case ‘incapable of fair trial’




					www.irishtimes.com
				












						Family awarded €70,000 over garda leak
					

A family who were forced to leave their new home because of the leaking of confidential information by gardaí have been awarded €70,000.




					www.rte.ie
				




Hopefully they can help


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## NoRegretsCoyote (4 Nov 2020)

*It will be very difficult to prove that the recordings were covert given that you lived together.*

Suppose he has recordings of you with your therapist. He could claim that you talked to your therapist in the living room with him present. He could claim that you recorded them yourself and left them on a USB drive and left it in the kitchen and he took it by mistake.




Ualtar said:


> He got a protective order from his ex-girlfriend and I witnessed the aggression. I will be her witness in February during the hearing court.



What this _could_ be, however, is witness intimidation. Did you mention this aspect to the Garda?


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## Ualtar (4 Nov 2020)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> *It will be very difficult to prove that the recordings were covert given that you lived together.*
> 
> Suppose he has recordings of you with your therapist. He could claim that you talked to your therapist in the living room with him present. He could claim that you recorded them yourself and left them on a USB drive and left it in the kitchen and he took it by mistake.




Due to the pandemic, online therapy must follow strict rules in order to happen.

*1. it has to be in a safe application of the therapist's choice and in a reserved place where only me and the therapist are. No one else.
2. The sessions are online and are not recorded on my computer or on the therapist's computer. The therapist makes notes of points that he/she thinks are important.*

I have always tried to schedule the sessions for when I was alone at home. Not even my spouse (who I trust most) would stay at home.
Your argument that he can claim this or that is completely unsupported.

*By the way, I don't need to prove anything about the recordings. He has already confessed in the email and voice messages left on my mobile phone that he had been recording for 2 months.*


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## NoRegretsCoyote (4 Nov 2020)

Ualtar said:


> Your argument that he can claim this or that is completely unsupported.



Supported by what? It's just a thought experiment. 

You lived with the man under the same roof. There are several innocent explanations he could advance for being in possession of recordings between  you and your therapist. Everyone has a recording device in their pocket now and I am sure there are people who record their sessions or carry them out with other people present despite rules to the contrary. Claims that you were alone at home at the time are moot.

Of course _I _believe you, but he may be able to generate a reasonable doubt.


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## Leo (4 Nov 2020)

Ualtar said:


> I have always tried to schedule the sessions for when I was alone at home. Not even my spouse (who I trust most) would stay at home.
> Your argument that he can claim this or that is completely unsupported.



Playing devil's advocate, he could claim that he just overheard the conversation or recorded it while recording his own activity. Remember, the recording of zoom calls, or calls over any app is not protected by law. 



Ualtar said:


> By the way, I don't need to prove anything about the recordings. He has already confessed in the email and voice messages left on my mobile phone that he had been recording for 2 months.



I'm afraid an admission over email in an exchange like that is not sufficient evidence of the existence of a recording. All he has to do is say he was just winding you up.


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## David_Dublin (4 Nov 2020)

My view on this is let it go - it's not doing you any good to remain focused on this.

He's likely to move onto some other poor soul if you let it go.

Engaging with him is likely to escalate this, provoke him to do more, or ensure he continues to fixate on this rather than move on.


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## elcato (4 Nov 2020)

Ualtar said:


> *The officer said that recording someone else is not a crime.* That he is recorded on the street constantly and cannot stop it.* At that time, I asked him if he was kidding.*


You really know how to get people on your side. That is all.


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## SparkRite (4 Nov 2020)

David_Dublin said:


> My view on this is let it go - it's not doing you any good to remain focused on this.


Has been advised to do this by a few posters, including myself, but doesn't want to hear it.
He posted same but I think has since edited it.



Ualtar said:


> I will be her witness in February during the hearing court.


He is testifying against the alleged 'recorder' next year ( on a different matter) and just on that basis alone, I strongly
suspect there is a lot more to this whole scenario than we are being told.



DeeKie said:


> Do you have anything on him? I’d try to find something


This sort of advice, which incidently was 'liked' by the OP, is, in my opinion, neither constructive nor beneficial to either party and
I would hope is also something most civil minded people would not condone.


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## Bronte (5 Nov 2020)

OP you have made a statement to the Gardai.  Do they not have to act up on it? Can they give you something in writing.  We have a man up for assaulting his partner, who has been recording another female, who seems vulnerable (therapist)  and people don't see a pattern here.  If he thinks he can get away with things it may esculate. The OP did the right thing complaining to the Gardai, if it were only the recording without the assault case I too would have said let it go. Get it documented by the Gadai and forward that to the ex girlfriends solicitor.


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## Ualtar (5 Nov 2020)

SparkRite said:


> This sort of advice, which incidently was 'liked' by the OP.



The whole post doesn't consist of the phrase "I'd try to find something" only, but you assumed that the like I gave was based exactly on that sentence, right?



SparkRite said:


> He is testifying against the alleged 'recorder' next year ( on a different matter) and just on that basis alone, I strongly
> suspect there is a lot more to this whole scenario than we are being told.



In this and in several other similar posts in this forum your sentence: *"there is a lot more to this whole scenario than we are being told"* is repeated over and over. I have the impression that you are more interested in the gossip of knowing the whole story than sticking to the facts.

The guy goes to court because he has a protective measure against him and I will be one of the witnesses. When the protective measure was served, he was still living with me. To me, it seems so obvious that he started recording things around here to find out if my wife and I will testify against him. He is using some very personal conversations to intimidate and harass us in some way that we would not testify. Probably if you were in my shoes he would have gotten what he wanted.

*Record someone in their own house without their consent to harass and intimidate is a crime. Period.
What can be done? I don't think It is so hard to stick with that.*

You also can move on and forget about this post as simple as that.


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