# Car sold to motor dealer but they reneged on the deal



## ClubMan (5 Nov 2018)

First off I wasn't sure whether to post this here or in the Cars section but I thought that it was more of a consumer rights issue so made most sense here. But if it's in the wrong place then apologies and moderators please feel free to move it.

My mother has given up driving due to old age so decided to sell her car. We brought it over to a motor dealer (a big one that is an authorised marque dealer and not a backstreet operation or anything like that) on Saturday. (I won't name the marque or dealer just yet). The guy looked it over, took it for a test drive and agreed to buy it for €5.8K. He gave us a cheque for €5.8K and an invoice/receipt form. We obviously left him the car, keys, vehicle registration certificate and manufacturer warranty details (still one year of cover left). Job done - or so we thought...

This morning he called to say that when they went to valet it to prepare it for resale they discovered damp in the footwell and a problem with the upholstery there. He said that he had stopped the cheque and was now only willing to pay €5K as it would cost him €800 to reupholster the cabin. I told him that this was not our problem, that we had presented it in good faith, he had checked it over and test driven it and decided to buy it so it was incumbent on him to honour the deal. Caveat emptor and all that. He then said that he didn't want it at all and would, if necessary, leave it back at my mother's home address. He said because it is still registered in her name it's still her car regardless of any agreement to buy it on his part. I obviously disagreed with him on this. (He actually had the cheek to accuse me of trying to "sting" him/the dealership which I thought was outrageous!).

I told him that I was lodging the cheque regardless (even if it is stopped or otherwise bounces) and we expected him to honour the deal and pay what was agreed. I have lodged the cheque and have written to them by post to set out the facts of the situation (including the calls today) and to insist that they pay as agreed should the cheque bounce.

I called the CCPC for info/advice but they said that it wasn't a consumer issue and all they could suggest was getting legal advice (!). I also called SIMI and they explained their complaints process which I will pursue if necessary. I may also contact the manufacturer for whom this dealer is an authorised seller and service centre to complain. I was even considering calling Joe if it comes to it!  Small Claims court is presumably out of the question since it's more than €2K.

Just wondering what others here think in relation to our consumer rights here? Any other useful suggestions/comments?


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## Brendan Burgess (5 Nov 2018)

A very good article here 

https://www.lyonsdavidson.co.uk/paying-cheque-pitfalls/

_*Cancelled cheque*

Under the Bills of Exchange Act 1882, you can be held liable for payment of a cheque merely by the fact that you signed it. The act states that once you present a cheque for payment, you are confirming that it will be honoured. If it is ‘dishonoured’ (e.g. by your cancelling it), you will be liable to compensate the payee.


The payee could issue proceedings against you for the cheque amount and make an application for ‘summary judgment’. This means the payee could ask the court to give judgment in their favour, without even giving you an opportunity to defend your action. Current case law states that this is to be routinely granted by the court unless there is a “good reason to the contrary.”_

They are chancing their arm. 

If they think that you deliberately misled them, they can do what they would have done if they had paid you cash - they can sue you or your mother for damages.

It's outrageous that a reputable motor dealer would do this. 

If the cheque bounces 

1) Write to the MD or owner giving him 7 days to send you a bank draft for the amount. (I presume you were dealing with the salesman.) 
2) Send a copy of the bounced cheque with a complaint to the SIMI 
3) Contact the car importers 
4) Post a copy of the cancelled cheque here. 
5) Talk to Joe 

Brendan


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## Easeler (5 Nov 2018)

Stand your ground on this one if it was the other way around they would tell you where to go, sounds like someone made a mistake and now his trying desperately to get out of the deal, he will still get rid of it have no doubt about that but not have the big profit he tougtt he would.


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## Palerider (5 Nov 2018)

I'm with the Dealer on this and don't blame him for missing the water ingress issue, something I'd be aware of had it been in my possession for any period, damp in a car causes condensation on the windows and an odour within the car, assuming it was damp and not surface water.

That said I believe ultimately they will honour the cheque, I would not be getting too excited about it until the cheque bounces.

Very unreasonable to suggest posting a copy of the unpaid cheque on this forum.


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## Brendan Burgess (5 Nov 2018)

Palerider said:


> Very unreasonable to suggest posting a copy of the unpaid cheque on this forum.



It is outrageous behaviour to stop a cheque. 

ClubMan might have made up the whole story or told us only part of it.

But if he can show a bounced cheque, it shows outrageous behaviour by the motor dealer. 

Imagine if ClubMan had insisted on being paid cash? What would the motor dealer do then. Break into his house and take back €800?  That is what he is doing here. 

Brendan


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## ClubMan (5 Nov 2018)

Thanks for the comments so far.


Brendan Burgess said:


> A very good article here
> 
> https://www.lyonsdavidson.co.uk/paying-cheque-pitfalls/


Isn't that UK specific though?
And I don't want to go down the legal route if at all possible as it won't be worth it.


> 2) Send a copy of the bounced cheque with a complaint to the SIMI


If/when the cheque bounces do I get a copy of the bounced cheque from my mother's bank?


Palerider said:


> I'm with the Dealer on this and don't blame him for missing the water ingress issue, something I'd be aware of had it been in my possession for any period


The car has been sitting idle for two years and nobody was driving it. The battery was flat (AA charged it up to get it over to the dealer) and the dealer was told about that. My view is that it was up to him to inspect the car for any other issues. The fact that he discovered something AFTER he purchased the car is his problem. 


> That said I believe ultimately they will honour the cheque


Why do you believe that when they said that it has already been cancelled/stopped?


> Very unreasonable to suggest posting a copy of the unpaid cheque on this forum


Why?

BTW depending on how things go I may name the dealer and marque involved unless that is in breach of the posting guidelines. Everything here is factual so I can't see how there can be any issue of defamation or whatever.


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## ClubMan (5 Nov 2018)

BTW - again irrelevant to the issue at hand (the dealer reneging on the deal and cancelling the cheque payment) but I see that they have a 2011 model of the same car with twice the mileage on their website for €7,995 so even €5,800 for a 142 version with lower mileage they're surely going to make something off this!

They also tried to claim that 20K KM on the clock for a 4 year old car was high mileage! And that it would cost them €170 to replace the battery!  Must be like the guy (again an authorised dealer) who serviced my car last year and wanted to charge me €60 for a cabin air filter replacement - a part that costs about a fiver and takes about 5 minutes to fit (obviously I did it myself).


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## mathepac (5 Nov 2018)

Brendan Burgess said:


> It's outrageous that a reputable motor dealer would do this.


They're obviously behaving like the Del Boy stereotype they have earned for themselves. 

5K KM/annum is high? I do 10/12K KM/annum and for insurance purposes that is regarded as low by the insurance companies
I paid €70 two years ago for a new battery for my 1.9 diesel. €170? - I don't think so!

If ClubMan had purchased the car from the Del Boys and noticed the same issue (if issue there is), what would their response have been? Write a cheque and reverse the transaction? I don't think so.

Name and shame I say when you have cancelled cheques etc to hand.

Consumer issue clear and simple.


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## David1234 (6 Nov 2018)

ClubMan said:


> If/when the cheque bounces do I get a copy of the bounced cheque from my mother's bank?



Yes the bank will return the cheque to you. You will also get hit with a charge of a few Euro


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## RedOnion (6 Nov 2018)

ClubMan said:


> Isn't that UK specific though


Yes, but the same legislation dating from 1882 covers cheques here.


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## ClubMan (6 Nov 2018)

David1234 said:


> Yes the bank will return the cheque to you. You will also get hit with a charge of a few Euro


I thought that only the payer got hit with a charge for a bounced cheque and not (also?) the payee?


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## ClubMan (6 Nov 2018)

RedOnion said:


> Yes, but the same legislation dating from 1882 covers cheques here.


Ok thanks. But there's probably no cheap and easy way to enforce legal rights here is presume? I.e. it would involve getting legal advice/representation and going to court?


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## David1234 (6 Nov 2018)

ClubMan said:


> I thought that only the payer got hit with a charge for a bounced cheque and not (also?) the payee?


Perhaps its different for personal accounts but AIB charge us a fee on our business one.


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## Monbretia (6 Nov 2018)

I would be fairly sure there is a fee for a bounced cheque on the account it is lodged in too, both sides are charged to the best of my knowledge.


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## Bronte (6 Nov 2018)

ClubMan said:


> Just wondering what others here think in relation to our consumer rights here? Any other useful suggestions/comments?



See if the cheque bounces first. Wait for a reaction to your letter.  Then threaten them with Joe.  If that doesn't work I'm guessing a simple solicitors letter will.  And that shouldn't cost much. 

Also you could go to a solicitor at no cost to ask how much it would cost to take the dealer to court. 

To me this is a clear case of caveat emptor and you had all the elements necessary for a contract.  Agreement to buy, and payment made.  Even if you knew about the water and didn't tell the buyer I don't believe that is a reason to void the contract. It would have if you had a written or oral contract that stated that if there is a fault discovered the buyer could pull out of the sale. 

As an example. A house sale, if you purchase 'subject to satisfactory engineer's report' and the report is bad, then you're allowed to pull out, but you wouldn't if the report said the house was ok.  Nothing like that happened here. 

And if BB says it's ok I think you should name the dealer.  Outrageous carry on.


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## Bronte (6 Nov 2018)

Palerider said:


> I'm with the Dealer on this and don't blame him for missing the water ingress issue, something I'd be aware of had it been in my possession for any period, damp in a car causes condensation on the windows and an odour within the car, assuming it was damp and not surface water.
> 
> That said I believe ultimately they will honour the cheque, I would not be getting too excited about it until the cheque bounces.
> 
> Very unreasonable to suggest posting a copy of the unpaid cheque on this forum.



OP was not aware of any water ingress, even if he had been he was not required to disclose such information. 

What legal remedy would the dealer have if the cheque had been cashed. And this is important to Clubman, because the dealer would have zero legal come back because of caveat emptor. 

(I think though that car dealers who sell unfit cars - not water ingress - may have trading standards they have to adhere to, because they are a trade, but this does not apply to private sellers.)


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## ClubMan (6 Nov 2018)

Monbretia said:


> I would be fairly sure there is a fee for a bounced cheque on the account it is lodged in too, both sides are charged to the best of my knowledge.


I checked since posting earlier and there is indeed a charge at both ends for a bounced cheque.


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## ClubMan (6 Nov 2018)

Palerider said:


> I'm with the Dealer on this


Just to be clear you think that the dealer is within their rights to renege on the deal post hoc?


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## ClubMan (6 Nov 2018)

Thanks again for all the posts/comments so far. On balance they reassure me that I'm within my rights to insist that they honour the contract to purchase the vehicle as agreed.


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## cremeegg (6 Nov 2018)

Bouncing a cheque can be a criminal matter under  


Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act, 2001 section 4
see here

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/customers-bouncing-cheques-now-face-jail-25885702.html


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## Bronte (6 Nov 2018)

cremeegg said:


> Bouncing a cheque can be a criminal matter under
> 
> 
> Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act, 2001 section 4
> ...



That's not the case here though, because there is funds.  It would have to be a law that says you can't deliberately bounce a cheque because you changed your mind.


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## ClubMan (6 Nov 2018)

Thanks. Saw that mentioned somewhere alright (here or boards.ie maybe) but I'm not so sure that STOPPING a cheque is the same thing as writing a cheque without sufficient funds to cover it?

Edit: post crossed with Bronte's.


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## galway_blow_in (6 Nov 2018)

ClubMan said:


> First off I wasn't sure whether to post this here or in the Cars section but I thought that it was more of a consumer rights issue so made most sense here. But if it's in the wrong place then apologies and moderators please feel free to move it.
> 
> My mother has given up driving due to old age so decided to sell her car. We brought it over to a motor dealer (a big one that is an authorised marque dealer and not a backstreet operation or anything like that) on Saturday. (I won't name the marque or dealer just yet). The guy looked it over, took it for a test drive and agreed to buy it for €5.8K. He gave us a cheque for €5.8K and an invoice/receipt form. We obviously left him the car, keys, vehicle registration certificate and manufacturer warranty details (still one year of cover left). Job done - or so we thought...
> 
> ...



Guys behaviour is outrageous and unprofessional, he bought the car as he saw it. 

Stick to your guns, if it went near court  his reputation would suffer and he won't risk that, he's bluffing


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## galway_blow_in (6 Nov 2018)

Palerider said:


> I'm with the Dealer on this and don't blame him for missing the water ingress issue, something I'd be aware of had it been in my possession for any period, damp in a car causes condensation on the windows and an odour within the car, assuming it was damp and not surface water.
> 
> That said I believe ultimately they will honour the cheque, I would not be getting too excited about it until the cheque bounces.
> 
> Very unreasonable to suggest posting a copy of the unpaid cheque on this forum.



What part of

"bought as you saw it "

Are you unable to grasp?, it's a common understanding of trade every day of the week for used items, add to that this man works in the motor trade, he should have used his skills to assess the car thoroughly, it's possible that no flaw even exists.


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## Leo (6 Nov 2018)

The exchange of car and cheque satisfied the consideration element of contract formation. Once that happens, one party cannot unilaterally alter the terms.

To suggest the dealer had any entitlement to cancel or attempt to alter the contract is wrong. I think everyone would agree they were wrong if they decided to hit a car purchaser with an additional charge just because they felt it was worth more after the customer drove away, this is no different.


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## ClubMan (9 Nov 2018)

Thanks again for all the comments/advice.
The manager of the dealership was in contact and discussed the matter and apologised for the cancellation of the cheque and said that this should never have happened.
However he did defend his sales person in relation to how he went about approaching his "investigation" of the alleged damage that he claimed to discover after the fact/sale.
But the important thing is that he has made good the payment so the matter is now closed as far as I am concerned and since it was ultimately resolved satisfactorily I will not name and shame.
My mother IS out of pocket by €10 for the returned/bounced cheque but I won't bother trying to chase compensation for that as it's minor in the greater scheme of things and not worth the hassle and my time.


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## Easeler (9 Nov 2018)

Thats good you would think they should have  had the professional capacity to handle it better than they did but its sorted now and thats it.


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## Bronte (9 Nov 2018)

That's a great result.  And I agree with you not naming, because ultimately they did the right thing. And they apologised.  (reminder to self, don't rely on a cheque until the money is in the account)


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## ClubMan (9 Nov 2018)

Ironically a sibling who actually brought the car over to sell it last Saturday said that the guy asked if they wanted a wire transfer or a cheque and they asked for a cheque because they didn't have the bank details handy. So all this hassle could've been avoided in the first place. Unless an EFT authorised on a Saturday can be stopped before it goes through on the next working day...?


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