# harsh termination process after a competitors job offer



## Hasslehoff (9 May 2008)

A friend phoned this morning stating that he was moving jobs , she received an offer of a position from a direct competitor of her current employer some time ago.
She went to her current employer this week and told them that there was an offer was on the table but also held back the fact it was a competitor, her current employer said that they would need time to see if they could agree new terms in order to keep her. They came back and stated that they could not match the terms on offer but came close. She told them that it was not acceptable and she tendered her resignation which was accepted, at that point she told them who the offer was from.
Well, that changed matters , her manager went out of the office and came back with a member of security and HR. They advised her that she was to leave the premises within the next 15 minutes and to go to her desk (escorted) to only collect her personal belongings. She did all of this , shocked, but nonetheless all in a sense of numbness took her belongings. She then said to the HR person that she wanted her P45, notice period before she left the premises, she also stated that such a procedure of treating an employee like a criminal was never made clear to her and that she had no time to say goodbye or close off her work. They stated that it was not possible to allow her back to her office, and that a P45 and any money owed would be forwarded to her. However they did state that if they checked her email, web activity and phone records and found that she had dealings with this company within the scope of her employment that they may deny paying the notice period since they may deem such contact to be a breach of contract.

Any Thoughts ??


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## ClubMan (9 May 2008)

*Re: A dog would have faired better*



Hasslehoff said:


> her manager went out of the office and came back with a member of security and HR. They advised her that she was to leave the premises within the next 15 minutes and to go to her desk (escorted) to only collect her personal belongings.



That is not unusual procedure in some companies and roles.


> she also stated that such a procedure of treating an employee like a criminal


How was she treated like a criminal!?


> However they did state that if they checked her email, web activity and phone records and found that she had dealings with this company within the scope of her employment that they may deny paying the notice period since they may deem such contact to be a breach of contract.


Sounds plausible although we don't know the details of her contract.


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## ney001 (9 May 2008)

*Re: A dog would have faired better*

I have to say that if I found out that an employee was leaving and going to a competitor I would want them out of my office as quick as possible.  Once she has accepted the new position, her loyalty is immediately with the new employer and there is always a temptation to bring something to the table of the new employer.  I'm sure she was fairly shocked, it's not the nicest feeling in the world but from the employer perspective you would want her out of the office asap.


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## MandaC (9 May 2008)

*Re: A dog would have faired better*

Are they going to pay her for her notice period?

It would be commonplace in certain industries, where someone will be going to a competitor that if someone hands in their notice that they are asked to leave straight away and not work their notice period (although they will get paid for it).  I have seen it happen in our office on a couple of occassions.

Its not like they are being frogmarched out the door by Security or anything, but just asked to take their personal belongings and check their desks.  No one has a problem with it, as its just explained as procedure.  Nothing personal, and not treated like criminal however.

Thats just business, however escorting someone out the door by Security, threats about e-mails, etc. seems a bit OTT


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## Mpsox (9 May 2008)

*Re: A dog would have faired better*

This is not uncommon in some industries and would be the norm in certain part of financial services. I'd agree as well if I knew she was leaving for the competition, i'd have her out of the way asap. Might sound rough but it's a rough world we live in

Anyway, the weather is nice, she get's a month's ( or however long her notice is)holiday at home with pay


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## nai (9 May 2008)

I think the company have behaved in a reasonable manner. Most companies in industry will do this if they find you are moving to a direct competitor (especially for Sales based roles). It's not called Garden Leave (UK references but same for here) for nothing - she gets a few paid weeks off until her notice period elapses. With regard to checking her email etc it's probably company policy to ensure company information has not been passed over to comptetitor. It sounds like a relatively large company, if they have HR & security on-site so there is probably a clause in her contract or the company handbook outlining this process.

I know several people who have been frogmarched to their desks and then escorted off the premises after resigning.


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## Diziet (9 May 2008)

This is often standard process, designed to protect the employer's interests. it is very harsh, agreed, but best not to take it personally. It would have been better to know of it in advance of course, as it would make it less traumatic. I have ex colleagues who were escorted from the premises after resigning to go o a competitor. In their case, they were aware of the policy and did not mind. Indeed they were quite happy not to have to work their notice.

May be worth looking at her contract to make sure she knows what the policy actually covers. If it comes to withholding money it suddenly becomes more serious.


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## comanche (9 May 2008)

This sounds like pretty standard procedure to me. The employer will pay for the notice period but in the interest of the company does not want the employee on site so that they don't take any trade secrets to the new employer.

Nothing unusual here.


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## bullbars (9 May 2008)

If its a specialist area of work it wouldnt surprise me. As Comanche says they must ensure they dont take any (more) trade secrets with them.


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## snuffle (9 May 2008)

That's harsh alright but I can understand why the company did it - I have been in a workplace before where a disgruntled colleague left to work with a competitor, and before leaving, wiped their PC - deleted all their work going back two years, all their list of contacts, all record of business with clients (invoices, confirmation e-mails for orders etc) and took all their client contact list with them to their new place of employment, leaving the company in disarray as to picking up the pieces. 

The person hired to replace them had to start from complete and utter scratch, tracking down and dealing with clients who were understandably annoyed at their orders not turning up, etc. Perhaps your friends' company had a similar experience in the past and were trying to avoid giving your friend the time to carry out similar (not that I'm saying she would have, just I suppose the company has to be careful having perhaps been burned before?)

It does sound fairly heavyhanded but I have seen this happen before, unfortunately, and especially if access to sensitive material had been part of the job - another previous colleague who had been working in a financial sector was told they was being made redundant, and was allowed collect their belongings under supervision and escorted from the building too, just minutes after being given the news. Presume it's a precautionary measure to avoid an employee being vindictive, but it's a very unfair procedure for the majroity of us who are honest and not that way inclined.


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## eamonn123456 (9 May 2008)

I am surprised she got so upset about this, especially as she is the one who resigned, even though they came close to matching the other offer.  Not a good idea to start complaining about being treated like a criminal, sounds a bit melodramatic.  No wonder they threatened to go through her email etc.

I had similar experience when myself and a whole team of people were made redundant.  Now that is upsetting of course, and we were individually forced to sign an agreement as regards redundancy payment there and then, on a 'take it or leave it basis'.  Incidentally I signed it and checked afterwards whether I was legally entitled to anything better - I was not, so I obviously didn't quibble retropsectively.

We were also told to leave the building immediately, without touching our PCs and without speaking to anyone.  Remember this was not our choice, and we had no forewarning of it.  We just took it on the chin, it didn't kill us and we all moved on to better things.

I don't think she has much to complain about to be honest.


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## angrylad (9 May 2008)

Wow if your friend thinks that that's harsh she really has had no exposure to the real world. From reading your post it seems like she was dealing with strategic company plans etc. - did she really expect to be able to sit down at her PC and start emailing people. 

Tell you friend to sit back and actually think about it and I am sure she will get  over it pretty soon.

While I agree that the security element sounds a bit harsh I am sure the company were only protecting themselves as you never know how people will react in these situations, it's not like she was kicked out of a nightclub!!


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## MandaC (9 May 2008)

I have seen it happen in our company (when someone is leaving).  It is more so because if they were left to work their notice and have client contact for another month or so, they could actively set about poaching clients, or copying intellectual property.

No one was ever frogmarched out though, certainly not by security. And people involved were not surprised to be requested to leave.

The foolish thing is, if you were that devious, you would have contacted the clients before you handed in your notice and also copied what you like.

Its common practice and though they might be a bit heavy handed in this instance, its really not presonal.


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## sam h (9 May 2008)

I don't see why she's so upset as she now has the next month off.  There is nothing stopping calling her friend an arrange a "farewell" party.
In my old company, I know one guy who lied about where he was going (said it was a competitor and it wasn't).  He was very dissapointed to find they didn't think he was "important" enough to frogmarch!!


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## becky (9 May 2008)

I have heard of this type of stuff and I'm in the public service.

A friend of mine did something similar a few years ago. She cleared out her desk a few days before she told them and had arranged to meet her husband for an early lunch 30 mins after she told them.


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## PM1234 (9 May 2008)

This is fairly common practice. I'd have thought most people are aware of this policy and have any contact client lists etc taken well before they hand in their notice


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## wenzelc (14 May 2008)

becky said:


> She cleared out her desk a few days before she told them and had arranged to meet her husband for an early lunch 30 mins after she told them.


 
that's what your friend should have done. 

it's certainly not uncommon the way her company reacted. is it morally right? probably not but when it comes to these types of jobs and companies morales aren't very much considered. you're friend probably learnt out of the experience i.e. prepare yourself better before you let your other plans known.


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## Bronte (15 May 2008)

I know of two similar cases but worse,  man and family transferred to another country worked for a year, fired and given one hour to clear his desk, another man away on a business trip was fired over the phone - not nice, but life.  As she has the security of a new job she should be delighted to have her notice period off.  It wasn't personal just business.


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## shipibo (16 May 2008)

I,d say she was sorry she opened her mouth !!!!

Does company have PC Security Policy explicitely mentioned at login . IT Security contract signed by employee

Grey area in Law, but monitoring/ checking employees IT records needs to have a good reason, I.E. was she passing iinfo to competitor...


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## comanche (16 May 2008)

crumdub12 said:


> Grey area in Law, but monitoring/ checking employees IT records needs to have a good reason, I.E. was she passing iinfo to competitor...



No, no company needs a good reason. All IT equipment is company property. They have every right to do with them as they will, i.e. if they want they can monitor, all internet usage, phone calls, email, saved data, chat sessions anything.


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## ClubMan (16 May 2008)

Are you sure? 

[broken link removed]


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## comanche (16 May 2008)

ClubMan said:


> Are you sure?
> 
> [broken link removed]



"If surveillance or monitoring of communications use is to be carried out, the reasons and purposes for which this will be undertaken must be made clear to employees."

Bit of a carte blanche IMO. 

Suppose the issue is who own the data. If it resides on a company server, the company owns it.


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## shipibo (16 May 2008)

comanche said:


> "If surveillance or monitoring of communications use is to be carried out, the reasons and purposes for which this will be undertaken must be made clear to employees."
> 
> Bit of a carte blanche IMO.
> 
> Suppose the issue is who own the data. If it resides on a company server, the company owns it.


 

No test cases yet, and has company made their security policies clear to employees ... 

As for company server, can you definitely prove the user put data there, Digital Forensics can be a black art ...

Don,t want to take this issue too far away from original subject, but an interesting discussion.


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## marvindiodes (25 May 2008)

I was forced to resigned once over a dispute over job roles (when company taken over) A ladder climbing over zealous, newbie manager was trying to force me to take on about 50% more work load with no increase in salary or conditions.

I tought i was better to resign then be fired. The second I said id resign  rent a cop was called and i was  walked out. How ever they refused to pay me my holiday pay and other bits n pieces.  They failed to relises I had all the passwords for all the mail and file servers and eveything else in my head.  I had also begun porting the mail over from CC mail to outlook.  A week later the called looking for it.  I asked about my money they said no... I said i was having memory problems from the stress of it all. They didnt budge.. In the end it cost them about 100K (UK) not to mention penalties for not delivering service to thier clients, to  fix the problem and 6 weeks. My holiday pay and other monies were about 2 grand.

So sometimes it pay to be gental and nice. Act in haste repent at lesuire. The Newbie manager certainly had to she was fired  3 months later.


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## roland (25 May 2008)

*Re: A dog would have faired better*



ClubMan said:


> That is not unusual procedure in some companies and roles.


 
As most people have said, this is standard practice in a lot of companies. However, it's another case of people in power in companies adminstering 'company policy' without a thought about what is fair or what is really necessary.

If anyone really wanted to do damage to a company, or share information with their new employer, is it not fairly clear they would do all they had to do BEFORE they announced their resignation. The nonsense of immediately walking someone to the door is really a lot of show and bluster and a vaccuous attempt to 'protect the company'.  Without due reason to believe the person is wilfully about to inflict damage on the company it is totally heavy-handed to talk to someone who has served the company well (perhaps for many years) in the manner of 'clear your desk within 15 minutes', much less get security to walk that same person to the door. A more human and thoughtful response might be to say they had to leave by the end of the day and give them time to say goodbye to their colleagues.  The 'march to the door' could well achieve the reverse of what intended, by antagonising the person leaving and increasing the chances they act to damage the company with knowledge they already have. 

If anything it shows that service/commitment to any company doesn't really count for anything and you will more often than not be treated like a piece of nothing by managers slaved to 'company policy' the minute you cut your ties.


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## newirishman (25 May 2008)

If I get a good offer from a competitor and it is closely matched by the company I work for I wouldn't leave. Not knowing what "closely" means here but changing company for the sake of a few bucks? Not sure.
That might also explain the companies reaction - they are told being at risk loosing an employee and forced to raise their offer, and when it is rejected (despite being close) they are being told they loose the employee to a competitor - I would personally walk the employe out.


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## Calico (26 May 2008)

I worked for a company in the US (bank) who sent a member from HR down at 3.15pm to ask a girl up for a meeting at 3.30pm. When she left another HR person came down, cleared out her desk and I never heard or saw from her again.

It was probably all done for similar reasons outlined by other posters but I  thought it was scandalous - this girl wasn't particularly bright but she was an absolute pet and worked harder than anyone in there. They even had to force her to take her vacation days. Anyway, I left soon after as I didn't want to work for a company that treated people like that.


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## Pique318 (26 May 2008)

Calico said:


> I worked for a company in the US (bank) who sent a member from HR down at 3.15pm to ask a girl up for a meeting at 3.30pm. When she left another HR person came down, cleared out her desk and I never heard or saw from her again.



I used to work for a company that did the same thing on occasion. The act was know as 'Black Ops'  Generally the person was handing in their notice and went back to their desk to find their password no longer worked.

American company too. Paranoid feckers.


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## csirl (26 May 2008)

I think that the high handed escorted off the premises procedure has nothing to do with security and more to do with the employer wanting to make a statement to the remaining employees.

It serves to give the remaining employees the impression that:

1. the employee who has resigned is being kicked out of the company rather than is taking up a better position in another company. 

2. The impression that leaving the company is a bad thing.

While the resigning persons immediate colleagues will know why they are leaving, everyone else will not and will assume that they are being dismissed. I remember it happening to a close friend of mine (we'll call him "Joe Bloggs") - we both once worked for the same company. For weeks afterwards people were asking me why Joe Bloggs was fired and I got the impression that many didnt believe me when I said, that he actually resigned to take up a better job with another company.


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## Calico (26 May 2008)

csirl said:


> I think that the high handed escorted off the premises procedure has nothing to do with security and more to do with the employer wanting to make a statement to the remaining employees.



Well, it worked with me because I quit a few weeks later. I don't know if that was what they wanted or not?!


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## FredBloggs (26 May 2008)

Calico said:


> They even had to force her to take her vacation days.


 
Not saying its what happened there but its common behaviour for people who are missapropriating money not to take holidays.  When I started work there was a kindly old guy working there who everyone thought was really nice.  He would always be an absolute gentleman, never gossiped and was always very nice to wives, girlfreinds, boyfreinds who rang or dropped by.  The bosses wife adored him.  He was held up as an example to us younger guys - it was pointed out that he was so dilligent he hadn't taken a day off in years.  Then just a few months before he was due to retire he was in a minor accident and admitted to hospital.  When he was away it was discovered that he had been systematically stealing money for years (teaming and lading I think its called).  No one was ever sure exactly how much he'd taken but it was tens of thousands (at least).  
Because of his age it was decided not to pursue him through the courts but we never saw him again.


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## micmclo (26 May 2008)

sam h said:


> In my old company, I know one guy who lied about where he was going (said it was a competitor and it wasn't). He was very dissapointed to find they didn't think he was "important" enough to frogmarch!!


 
Lol, I know someone who did the same thing. He told management he was going to a competitor when he was actually going to travel for a few months
Asked to leave immediately and a full months pay, score!

For the post above, in financial services it's a legal requirment to take 2 weeks holidays together every year. It's not enforced but it's there all the same


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## ClubMan (26 May 2008)

micmclo said:


> For the post above, in financial services it's a legal requirment to take 2 weeks holidays together every year. It's not enforced but it's there all the same


Really? Under what legislation?


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## ubiquitous (26 May 2008)

marvindiodes said:


> I tought i was better to resign then be fired. The second I said id resign  rent a cop was called and i was  walked out. How ever they refused to pay me my holiday pay and other bits n pieces.  They failed to relises I had all the passwords for all the mail and file servers and eveything else in my head.  I had also begun porting the mail over from CC mail to outlook.  A week later the called looking for it.  I asked about my money they said no... I said i was having memory problems from the stress of it all. They didnt budge.. In the end it cost them about 100K (UK) not to mention penalties for not delivering service to thier clients, to  fix the problem and 6 weeks. My holiday pay and other monies were about 2 grand.



You would have to wonder about the morality (not to mention karma) issues attaching to causing so much damage to one's ex-employer.


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## MandaC (26 May 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> You would have to wonder about the morality (not to mention karma) issues attaching to causing so much damage to one's ex-employer.



Agree that Karma has a funny way of biting you on the backside when least expected.

However, you would also have to look at the stupidity of a company not to look at the overall picture.  By failing to pay someone what they were entitled to, they shot themselves in the foot and it cost them much more.  

That is unless it was the persons intention to do this anyway, which is not really what I took from their post.


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## ClubMan (26 May 2008)

MandaC said:


> Agree that Karma has a funny way of biting you on the backside when least expected.


Do people really believe in such superstitious rubbish?


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## rmelly (26 May 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> You would have to wonder about the morality (not to mention karma) issues attaching to causing so much damage to one's ex-employer.


 
Partially agree - not having the passwords of the systems plus disaster recovery precedures etc stored centrally (and securely) is poor practice, and reflects poorly on the poster (on that basis alone I wouldn't hire him - what happens if he gets run over by a bus?), beyond that though he isn't responsible.

Extent of how responsible depends on how senior he was - it he had an IT manager or similar, the manager should have demanded this. If he was the manager...


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## csirl (26 May 2008)

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *micmclo* http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?p=636124#post636124
> _For the post above, in financial services it's a legal requirment to take 2 weeks holidays together every year. It's not enforced but it's there all the same_
> 
> Really? Under what legislation?


 
Taking 2 consecutive weeks holiday is mentioned in the working time act - but can be varied by agreement. Doesnt specifically say that its for financial reasons, but there are both H&S (people who dont take proper holidays are more likely to suffer health problems) and financial reasons for it being there.

From the Act:



> (3) The annual leave of an employee who works 8 or more months in a leave year shall, subject to the provisions of any employment regulation order, registered employment agreement, collective agreement or any agreement between the employee and his or her employer, include an unbroken period of 2 weeks.


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## becky (26 May 2008)

I worked in Finance a a good few yeasr ago and we all had to take 2 clear weeks off - this was made clear to you when you starte.

It was a control mechanism as a lot of fraud was comitted by people who only took short breaks as their system would break down.


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## ClubMan (26 May 2008)

becky said:


> I worked in Finance a a good few yeasr ago and we all had to take 2 clear weeks off - this was made clear to you when you starte.


I can understand if there is a company policy on this but I was curious about the assertion that there was some law governing this. The post above suggests that there is none.


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## micmclo (26 May 2008)

I was told the two week holiday issue was a requirement laid down by IFSRA (financial regulators). I work in the area and it’s certainly been made clear to me when starting any job.

I wouldn’t be able to point to a specific piece of legislation but I’ll see can I get anything from IFSRA


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## micmclo (26 May 2008)

sorry, double post


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