# Parents Need Help with Mortgage



## Ambivert (13 Aug 2020)

To make the introduction short, my father is a man in his late 60's who has been self employed for the majority of his career. The last recession was not kind to him and as a result he is still working and has a mortgage of I believe 100k against the family home. The house has a valuation of maybe six or seven times that figure. My parents are wanting to stay in their current house they have been in for over 25 years. They have therefore asked myself and my siblings if they can borrow a mortgage in our names to pay off the one that is due. 

I want to help them, but feel this will jeopardize me if I want to go for a mortgage to purchase my own home in future. Am I right to have these concerns?


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## Brendan Burgess (13 Aug 2020)

Yes.   You will not be able to get a mortgage on a house not owned by you. 

Which lender is your parents' mortgage with? 

Is it in arrears? What is the history of the mortgage? 

Are they under pressure to redeem it? 

Does any of your siblings have a house with a mortgage that they could remortgage and borrow the additional €100k

Brendan


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## Saavy99 (13 Aug 2020)

Your parents can well afford to downsize and pay off their debts in the process. It's a bit inconsiderate of them to put this sort of pressure on you all.


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## Ambivert (13 Aug 2020)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Which lender is your parents' mortgage with?



It was sold off to Pepper Mortgages, who are not a vulture fund.



> Is it in arrears? What is the history of the mortgage?
> 
> Are they under pressure to redeem it?



It is not in arrears. It is due to be repaid and they have been given a timeline to get it in order.

The mortgage was originally with Permanent TSB.



> Does any of your siblings have a house with a mortgage that they could remortgage and borrow the additional €100k



Unfortunately not.


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## Brendan Burgess (13 Aug 2020)

Ptsb sold only non performing loans to Pepper.

Was it a split mortgage? Is this the warehouse which is due? 

When is it due to be repaid? 

How long have they given you? 

In general, it is better to provide all the information in one post so that you can get some comprehensive ideas. 

Brendan


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## Steven Barrett (13 Aug 2020)

Depending on the number of siblings, how about getting term loans and giving the money to your parents? You will have to tell the bank you want it for a car loan or something. It will also impact on your ability to get a mortgage during that period but at least you will have it paid off within 5 years. 

As Brendan said, you won't get a mortgage on a property you don't own and it has other ramifications such as losing the 10% deposit for first time buyers. 

This is a classic case where a reverse mortgage would be the solution for his parents but these products were driven out of Ireland with the snakes as it interfered with the "children's" inheritance but never considered the years of misery their parents had with no money but a valuable, useless asset. 


Steven
www.bluewaterfp.ie


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## Ambivert (13 Aug 2020)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Ptsb sold only non performing loans to Pepper.
> 
> Was it a split mortgage? Is this the warehouse which is due?
> 
> ...



I am not sure of the full details. I have found it a rather difficult subject to broach with my parents as they are evasive at times and I have been trying to be sympathetic towards what is a sensitive discussion for them. I get the feeling that they are not realising the seriousness of the situation and are reluctant to make the life changing decision of selling their house which they have built a life around in the local community. They said they took an extra loan out during the Celtic Tiger and then when the crash came used it to get them through tough times. My father had a major client who stuck him for a major sum in 2009 and he has been banking on a court case since then.


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## twofor1 (13 Aug 2020)

According to this recent article by John Lowe;

‘’_Sell a share in your home, up to 70% (Sixty plus finance are now open again for residential reversions, email me for details)’_’

https://www.rte.ie/lifestyle/living...e-cost-of-growing-old-in-ireland-a-fair-deal/


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## Ambivert (13 Aug 2020)

SBarrett said:


> Depending on the number of siblings, how about getting term loans and giving the money to your parents? You will have to tell the bank you want it for a car loan or something. It will also impact on your ability to get a mortgage during that period but at least you will have it paid off within 5 years.
> 
> As Brendan said, you won't get a mortgage on a property you don't own and it has other ramifications such as losing the 10% deposit for first time buyers.



I really would prefer not to put myself on the wrong financial footing for the future. I am late 20's myself and have worked hard to build a nest egg these past couple of years. I am living in the family home, saving and handing up money presently. I would be sad to see it happen, but I have suggested to my parents to sell the house and purchase one of lesser value and I will find shared accommodation elsewhere. It is the only logical solution to the problem I can see.


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## twofor1 (13 Aug 2020)

Ambivert said:


> It is the only logical solution to the problem I can see.


If it was available, why would selling a share in their house not be a logical solution ?

You and your parents would continue to live in the house, it would only be sold when your parents both pass away.


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## elcato (13 Aug 2020)

Why sell anything. You have a house that is being lived in by PPR for years. Tell the bank/debtor to put a charge on the house if they want for the 100k. No judge will rule they will have to sell.


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## Brendan Burgess (13 Aug 2020)

Hi Ambi 

You should get your parents to contact John Lowe. 

They would be more open to talk to a third party than discuss it with their children. 

If the house is worth €600k,  Sixty Plus Finance will buy  say, 40% of it for €100k.   They will get their payoff when the house is finally sold when they move into a nursing home or die. 

but your parents pay nothing in the meantime. 

It would be a long and arduous process for Pepper to get an order for possession against your parents, but it will be a stressful process for them and if they can resolve it, they should do so.

Brendan


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## NoRegretsCoyote (13 Aug 2020)

Ambivert said:


> I am not sure of the full details. I have found it a rather difficult subject to broach with my parents as they are evasive at times and I have been trying to be sympathetic towards what is a sensitive discussion for them.



If they can't even tell you their financial situation it's absurd to be asking you or siblings for a loan.

They have equity enough for a fine house for retirement. Let them figure it out themselves.


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## DeeKie (14 Aug 2020)

What have the offered in return for the mortgage?


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## Itchy (14 Aug 2020)

Ambivert said:


> I am not sure of the full details. I have found it a rather difficult subject to broach with my parents as they are evasive at times and I have been trying to be sympathetic towards what is a sensitive discussion for them.



You can't ask for help on one hand and be evasive about the details on the other. What is the payment pm? Can you club together with them (pension) and siblings? No loans, no dealing with banks etc. Just pay it off over the remaining term. A tricky situation for your folks no doubt.


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## Brendan Burgess (14 Aug 2020)

Itchy said:


> You can't ask for help on one hand and be evasive about the details on the other.



That was my initial reaction, but, on reflection, it seems that he just does not know.

Or he may want to not put up such details as will identify his parents.

Brendan


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## LondonIrish (14 Aug 2020)

Ambivert said:


> I am not sure of the full details. I have found it a rather difficult subject to broach with my parents as they are evasive at times and I have been trying to be sympathetic towards what is a sensitive discussion for them. I get the feeling that they are not realising the seriousness of the situation and are reluctant to make the life changing decision of selling their house which they have built a life around in the local community. They said they took an extra loan out during the Celtic Tiger and then when the crash came used it to get them through tough times. My father had a major client who stuck him for a major sum in 2009 and he has been banking on a court case since then.



I had a similar situation with my own parents. Your parents evasiveness is a concerning, it might simply be because they feel embarassed about asking or it might be because there are more debts that they are not admitting to which was the situation we encountered.

The solution for our family was for one sibling to buy my parent's property at a discount whilst they retained living rights to it (I cannot remember the correct legal term). Essentially, my sibling will take ownership when my parents pass on. We briefly examined the possibility of all siblings taking a joint mortgage but that was too complicated and would, we believed at the time, create problems in the future and we did not want this issue to cause a rift between us. The sibling in question had enough cash to do this at the time.

That said, the whole process was quite frught and stressful. My parents just asked for cash out of the blue and like yours would not countenance the sale of their home. When we got to the bottom of their finances we discovered quite a few more issues. The upshot was that they had to sell their property because they had no other choice but they got to continue living in it. 

I appreciate that you are in an awkward situation (not of your own making) but you cannot be expected to take on debt to help them if you do not know the full extent of their financial situation. I suggest that you sit down with them and go through everything. They also need to understand that any debt you and your siblings take on has consequences for your own finances (they get to keep their family home but you might not be able to afford one if you take on their debt). Ultimately, it is a little unfair of them to look for financial help whilst taking their largest asset out of discussions. They are your parents and I am sure they made financial sacrifices for you and your father seems like he has tried his best to honour his debts but the sale of the home would be tax free, clear their debts and end the stress. It seems like the obvious answer to me.


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## LS400 (14 Aug 2020)

Im surprised at the level of coldness in some of the replies.

Whats in it for you..etc. tell em to sell up.. the cheek of em putting this pressure on you..

The parent is almost 70, worked hard, provided for you all, got done over like a lot of folk, and as above said, probably quite embarrassed to find themselves in this situation at this stage of their lives, have always been looked up to by their kids and now, to be reluctantly asking for help. Flippen ek, how cold of a society have we become. 

Their €600k asset will be your asset in due time. This should be about you all as a Family, and not how it will impact you as a Twenty-something or other. 

Yes, you need a professional to mediate, and it will be money well spent, but they need to stay put in their home. Back them up without the feelings of, what about me.


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## Chelseablue (14 Aug 2020)

Well said LS400, it must be very embarrassing to ask for financial help from your children, if you can you should try and help them out.
Get professional advise & get them to make a will.


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## LondonIrish (14 Aug 2020)

I appreciate that everyone's situation is different but in my case my parents were not being honest about their finances and the poster who began this thread did say that his parents did not seem to realise the seriousness of their situation.

My first instince was to help my parents but the more I found out about their money problems the more I realised that they needed a lot more cash than they were admitting to. If I had been a lone child I would have had to remortgage my appt where I lived with my wife and two children whilst my parents got to live in a much larger property - it took some time for my parents to understand what they were asking of us. 

When it comes to money and family you need to be as objective as possible. The parents have a large, valuable asset. They could sell it, trade down and hopefully stay in the same area and this might solve all their problems without recourse to more debt. 

The impact on your own finances should not be underestimated. If you have to postpone buying a family home or some similarly important event in your life because you have had to take on debt to help out a family member then the borrower should be taking this into consideration too.

I would suggest you sit down and go through you parent's finances to help all of you understand what choices are available to you. If they sold up could they afford to retire? Do they have pensions or any other sources of income?


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## elcato (14 Aug 2020)

LS400 said:


> Im surprised at the level of coldness in some of the replies.
> 
> Whats in it for you..etc. tell em to sell up.. the cheek of em putting this pressure on you..


Great. We'll just tell the OP what he wants to hear and the whole world will be a better place, right ? This is an internet site, we can't give context to what is said or how it's said. Stay safe.


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## Saavy99 (14 Aug 2020)

LS400 said:


> Im surprised at the level of coldness in some of the replies.
> 
> Whats in it for you..etc. tell em to sell up.. the cheek of em putting this pressure on you..



No coldness intended  at all. The parents have a huge asset many multiplies of their debt. One has to be practical here, children cannot afford to bail them out so downsizing is the answer.

It's not they going to be out on their ear or have no option but apply for HAP or go into a crabby room in a government supported b&b.


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## dereko1969 (14 Aug 2020)

LS400 said:


> Im surprised at the level of coldness in some of the replies.
> 
> Whats in it for you..etc. tell em to sell up.. the cheek of em putting this pressure on you..
> 
> ...


I don't see coldness, I think people are, quite rightly, advising the OP to get much more information. The fact that the parents aren't giving more information has been rightly queried by LondonIrish who has gone through exactly the same thing where there were many more debts than originally acknowledged. 
You're basically telling the OP to gift money, to "protect" a potential future asset that will (it seems) be shared amongst a number of siblings and potentially wreck their own opportunity of getting a mortgage in the mid-term, that's not good advice in my view (based on the information we currently have).
Also, they don't "need" to stay in their home, they want to, not the same thing at all.


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## Brendan Burgess (14 Aug 2020)

OP

Your parents need to talk to a financial advisor with whom they will discuss everything.

Trading down is not really an option.  Rent a room would be much better.

If they engage with Pepper and pay them €500 a month, they can probably live in it forever.

You presumably are paying them at least that in rent?

Then in time, one of the siblings can remortgage their own home or they can avail of one of the Life Loan schemes.

Brendan


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## Itchy (14 Aug 2020)

LS400 said:


> Im surprised at the level of coldness in some of the replies.
> 
> Whats in it for you..etc. tell em to sell up.. the cheek of em putting this pressure on you..
> 
> ...



I'd be embarrassed asking for financial help if I had half a million to my name. 

There are options. The OPs father clearly hasn't considered them. It's up to the OP to manage the sensitivities, the internet can't do that for them.


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## dereko1969 (14 Aug 2020)

Brendan Burgess said:


> OP
> 
> Your parents need to talk to a financial advisor with whom they will discuss everything.
> 
> ...


Why do you think trading down isn't an option?


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## NoRegretsCoyote (14 Aug 2020)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Trading down is not really an option. Rent a room would be much better.



This is very odd advice. I don't know many couples in their late 60s who would be happy sharing a bathroom and kitchen with a lodger indefinitely.

Trading down is perfectly feasible from (say) €650k to €550k. Unless they are living in prime Dublin it will get them a home commensurate to their needs in same neighbourhood.


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## Ambivert (14 Aug 2020)

LS400 said:


> Im surprised at the level of coldness in some of the replies.
> 
> Whats in it for you..etc. tell em to sell up.. the cheek of em putting this pressure on you..
> 
> ...



Thank you for your response. I wholeheartedly agree and I regret starting this thread after seeing those responses. 

I could not have asked for better parents growing up. It is really hurtful to me as well seeing people on here being so judgmental of two people I love dearly. They were not physically looking for money off us either, but our ability to borrow a loan that would be put towards a portion of the debt amount that is owed.


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## Gordon Gekko (14 Aug 2020)

Are any of the siblings wealthy or “set-up” in terms of their own home etc?

What if you all purchased the property from your parents for €100k?

i.e. the €600k becomes a gift but it’s below the collective Group A thresholds.

And no CGT for your parents as it was the Principal Private Residence.

Your parents could then pay you guys “rent” just to cover the ongoing cost of the mortgage (which would be tiny as it would be €100k spread over 25-30 years).

There shouldn’t be any tax leakage as the rent and the interest should be offsetable.

A bank would give you a loan if you’re taking ownership. And the repayments on €100k over 25-30 years would be pretty small so I can’t see it massively impacting on people’s ability to borrow for their own purposes. What might it be, €400 a month maybe?


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## LondonIrish (14 Aug 2020)

Ambivert said:


> Thank you for your response. I wholeheartedly agree and I regret starting this thread after seeing those responses.



I apologise if I came accross to strong. In my situation, I was hit with a financial request when I wanted to move into a family home. Moreover, my property at the time was jointly owned with my wife who paid half of the mortgage. So I was asking her to take on more debt on a property that was not suitable for us (two kids under 5) whilst my own parents ran up debts that they were unwilling to face up to. I appreciate that your own situation is very different  and I jumped in with limited information. 

I guess if people here were to give better advice they would need to be better informed about the entire situation. Does you father expect to continue to work? Do your parents have a pension? What happens if one sibling suddenly needs cash, can they sell their part of the mortgage to another sibling? Sharing a debt between a family like this can store up problems for the future unless one of you can carry this burden on your own?

I suspect that your old man has been stressed about this for years and it has taken him a long time to approach you. I am sure that he would prefer to do anything else save ask you. You mention that he is looking for help with part of his debt so he will still own money after this? If you do take on the debt it would be helpful for posters here to understand what the medium term plans are. Does he intend to retire or does he need to contine to work given that he will still owe cash. If you take on some of his debt now are you just providing a breathing space before he might need help again.


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## LS400 (14 Aug 2020)

dereko1969 said:


> Also, they don't "need" to stay in their home, they want to, not the same thing at all
> 
> I dont agree, The "want" becomes a "need" as you progress through advanced age.





dereko1969 said:


> Why do you think trading down isn't an option



Because there are better options out there instead.


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## Ambivert (14 Aug 2020)

Gordon Gekko said:


> Are any of the siblings wealthy or “set-up” in terms of their own home etc?
> 
> What if you all purchased the property from your parents for €100k?
> 
> ...



Neither of my siblings have property. They are both older and do not take money as seriously as I do.



LondonIrish said:


> I apologise if I came accross to strong.



I appreciate that. Thank you.

My parents financial situation is something that has been at the back of my mind for a number of years now. I have never really discussed it with anybody outside and it has been a difficult thing for me to do. I am hoping soon there may be some light at the end of the tunnel.


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## dereko1969 (14 Aug 2020)

Ambivert said:


> Thank you for your response. I wholeheartedly agree and I regret starting this thread after seeing those responses.
> 
> I could not have asked for better parents growing up. It is really hurtful to me as well seeing people on here being so judgmental of two people I love dearly. They were not physically looking for money off us either, but our ability to borrow a loan that would be put towards a portion of the debt amount that is owed.


We can only go on the information you provided. You stated yourself that your parents were evasive when asked about the scale of the financial issues they're facing. You stated yourself that downsizing seems the best solution but when we state it it is suddenly "cold". I'm sure your parents are great but they are looking for a solution that isn't feasible - the rest of you getting a mortgage on a property you don't own - so alternatives were suggested on here, most of which were aimed at protecting your interests as you're the one posting here.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (14 Aug 2020)

Ambivert said:


> It is really hurtful to me as well seeing people on here being so judgmental of two people I love dearly.



No one is judging your parents.

They are judging a set of facts and circumstances that you decided to share. It's a pseudonymous forum and any post could be fact or complete fiction, or a bit of both.

There's a lot is useful signal and not much noise on this thread.

You'd get more useful ideas if you engaged on substance.


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## Ambivert (14 Aug 2020)

dereko1969 said:


> We can only go on the information you provided. You stated yourself that your parents were evasive when asked about the scale of the financial issues they're facing. You stated yourself that downsizing seems the best solution but when we state it it is suddenly "cold". I'm sure your parents are great but they are looking for a solution that isn't feasible - the rest of you getting a mortgage on a property you don't own - so alternatives were suggested on here, most of which were aimed at protecting your interests as you're the one posting here.



I did say that downsizing is a logical solution. They do have an emotional attachment to their family home though and 500-600k does not buy much near to where they are living.

Despite what you say, a bit of sensitivity never goes amiss. Some of the responses here were leveling criticism at my parents and questioning their moral qualities. If any of those people met my parents in person I bet they would feel bad about being so judgmental about them on a forum. Life is not always so black and white and my parents were hard working people who never milked it during the Celtic Tiger. They were simply unfortunate in falling victim to unscrupulous business people when the crash happened.



NoRegretsCoyote said:


> No one is judging your parents.
> 
> They are judging a set of facts and circumstances that you decided to share. It's a pseudonymous forum and any post could be fact or complete fiction, or a bit of both.
> 
> ...



You must look up the definition of judgmental then.

(The rest of your post is just a load of high and mighty bumpf that I cannot understand.)


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## Saavy99 (14 Aug 2020)

Ambivert. No one is judging your parents. As NoregretsCoyote posted it's an anonymous forum on money matters, it's not a forum for agony aunts.  I have no doubt your parents are wonderful kind human beings.  They have only being living in the area 25 years. Lots of older people downsize for practical reasons as well as financial reasons. If there are no properties locally, try the next neighbourhood, a nice two or three bedroomed house should suit their requirements at this time of life.  
It's tough what happened to your dad during the last recession, it really was an awful time for many hundreds of thousands of people. However, this current pandemic has seen many many more thousands of people thrown on the scrap heap with jobs gone, mortgage breaks coming to an end and no hope in sight, it really is a horrendous situation for them.  Your parents have options, having no money or no.job or no hope does not give people options.


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## LondonIrish (14 Aug 2020)

Perhaps we should return to the issue at hand. 

If selling is not an option then you'll need to borrow the money. Since you cannot get a mortgage on a property you don't own then I guess you'll need to take out a personal loan unless you already have a property you can borrow against? Or can you go guarantor on your parent's mortgage? I suspect that arrangements like that are not an option nowadays. You might want to find out if the money owed is secured against anything (such as the house). 

So find how much your folks need (you may need to do a bit of probing) and then see what your siblings have to say. My experience was that the more siblings are involved the more complicated things become because everyone's financial situation is unique; if at all possible one person takes on the debt and the others agree to split the estate after the loan (plus interest) as been repaid. That's where a solicitor comes in (as recommended above). 

I know you want to do what is best for your folks but everyone needs to be honest with one another and it seems to me that you are a bit in the dark yourself. Can you take your old man out for a pint and have him run through everything? He has probably had creditors on his back for a decade and just wants this to go away but you don't want to take a loan out yourself if it only serves as a temporary sticking plaster. I hope it works out for you all.


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## _OkGo_ (17 Aug 2020)

OP: I genuinely feel for your situation but I would encourage you to not take the comments too personally. It is easy for posters to be blunt when they have no emotional attachment to the situation but they are genuinely offering financial solutions to your situation. I don't think any of them are judging you or your parents in what is a difficult situation. Your parents evasiveness is most likely their way of trying not to over burden you with what they see as their problem. 

What you need to know (as a family):

Exact outstanding balance and term of mortgage and the interest rate
Fathers current income and how long he can (or is able) to continue working
What pension arrangements do they have: is there a lump sum coming when your father retires? Or will they just be relying on state pension
Do they have any other savings that have been 'ring-fenced' for something else...this should be used for the mortgage
What would their situation look like if you were not living with them and paying rent
Impact to you and siblings: If you take on a mortgage on your parents property, you could each potentially lose access to the 'help to buy' scheme which is significant to your chances of buying a home
I would suggest seeking as much professional advice as possible. MABS/Abhaile might be a good place to start. While your parents are not in arrears or insolvent right now, this might change so it is no harm to engage with MABS to get a better understanding or their options.


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## dereko1969 (18 Aug 2020)

I think OKGO's point about what would happen to the OP's parents if the OP decided to move out to either rent or buy another place is really important. Is there the possibility that the OP might feel obliged to stay in the family home longer than they would like to help keep the parents in their home?


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## OMG_OMG (25 Aug 2020)

Is there still such a thing as a deed of covenant?
Basically you can all give your parents money every year and get tax back on it.
Might help in some way.


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## Monbretia (25 Aug 2020)

There is still DOCs but quite limiting amount wise before causing tax liability for receiver if they have income of their own, hardly going to give enough I'd imagine to solve the problem.


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