# BER Assessment - does it really have to be done?



## Paulsgirl (17 Jan 2009)

Hi, 

I've read a good few threads on BER assessments and my query is, eventhough its a legal requirement since 1st Jan for a rental property to have this when new tenants arrive.  What if the landlord doesn't get it done?  I don't see any information that the assessment results need to be sent to the PRTB when registering new tenants so just wondering, who checks whether it has been done or not?

Just curious thats all.  Have the assessment booked in but just wondering as I don't seem to be able to find my answer anywhere.

Thanks

Paulsgirl.


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## irishlinks (17 Jan 2009)

Same as the PRTB - that is supposed to be compulsory - but we all know that plenty of landlords don't bother. It's one thing this government making all these wonderful new rules - but what use are they if no one checks up . If the tenants aren't  bothered - who else is going to report them ?  If the financial regulator can "miss" millions of dodgy loans for 8 years how can we expect this country to keep track of  BERs ?


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## Paulsgirl (17 Jan 2009)

Thats unbelievable. So the PRTB aren't checking up. Seems pretty pointless in getting it done then.


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## minion (18 Jan 2009)

Look at all the rental adds on Daft.

None of them have any mention of BER on them.

Nobody cares about this sham.

Very soon all of the BER ratings carried out so far will be null and void because they are inconsistent.


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## noelf (18 Jan 2009)

Ø From 1 January 2009, a Building Energy Rating (BER) certificate will be required by law for all existing buildings, when they are offered for sale or rent. 

Ø From 1 July 2008, a Building Energy Rating (BER) certificate will be required by law for all new non-residential buildings for which planning permission. is being applied for.

Ø From 1 January 2007, a Building Energy Rating Certificate will be required by law for new dwellings, for which planning permission has been applied for on or after this date, when they are offered for sale or rent.

This is controlled by the SEI and there is a financial penalty for non compliance.

Again more money for what ???????


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## DeeFox (19 Jan 2009)

noelf said:


> This is controlled by the SEI and there is a financial penalty for non compliance.


 
But what is the financial penalty and how is it monitored?


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## minion (19 Jan 2009)

DeeFox said:


> But what is the financial penalty and how is it monitored?



My bet is that its not.


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## rabbit (19 Jan 2009)

minion said:


> Very soon all of the BER ratings carried out so far will be null and void because they are inconsistent.


Good point.  I know someone who paid 110 to get one done...waste of time.    Someone else paid 300 on a similar house to someone who spent less time and gave a different result.  The only people it benefits are the people dishing out the certs + getting the money.


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## Optimist (19 Jan 2009)

If you enter into an agreement to lease or purchase without having been supplied with the required BER cert, then surely the transaction is questionable given that the lessee/purchaser didn't have the requisite information - thus potentialy making the agreement null and void. It's going to be very interesting to see how this pans out.

The Law Society have directed that draft contracts for property transactions should not be sent without the BER cert attached first. In other words, an undertaking to provide a cert at a later date will not suffice.


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## Lollix (19 Jan 2009)

Given the huge range of values over BER certs for the same building, the best BER cert would seem to be the cheapest one. It is my view that anyone who can do a certification for less than 100 euro will make a fortune; all he or she has to do is pick a number based on a general quick look at the property. Such an approach will be as useful as the current situation, and as meaningful. Cheapest is definitely best in this case.


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## noelf (19 Jan 2009)

We had three companies access a property in order to appoint an assesor,
Guess what ?
Three conflicting reports!
What did I do then.
Got two more.
Guess what.
Same result...
What will I do..... 
Select the two who had the closest result, actually two got the exact same.
Maybe the cogged each others work........
Glad my gas guys dont get the same results on gas cert or the sparks for that matter when the fill out a cert.
Seemingly there are very many variables and assumptions on existing builds where as new builds with plans and specs should be more accurate.
Have ea vous avec fun with your ber's........... I did


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## ButtermilkJa (20 Jan 2009)

BER's are a complete waste of time. Even if the assessor tells you your property is rated G (or whatever the worst is) there is absolutely nothing you have to do. No requirement to upgrade the property, no laws to say you must improve the rating.

I bought an apartment less than 4 years ago and paid over a quarter of a million Euro for the privilege. Now I'm being told I have to pay a few hundred more to see if it's energy efficient if I want to rent or sell it!

So, while the builders were creaming it by throwing up properties in an unregulated market, now the government decides that we should have regulation and lo and behold it's the consumer who should pay for it.

My home is covered by a HomeBond 10-year guarantee so can I call the builders back in and make them certify or upgrade the building?!


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## Meathman99 (20 Jan 2009)

Noelf gets 5 people to assess his property and some wont even get one.    Noelf should be applauded for his support of the BER scheme


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## jimmmy (20 Jan 2009)

Meathman99 said:


> Noelf gets 5 people to assess his property and some wont even get one. Noelf should be applauded for his support of the BER scheme


 
Noelf should be applauded for showing the inefficiences in the current government thinking....jobs for the boys stuff.     The BER scheme itself obviously does not deserve support.


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## Danmo (20 Jan 2009)

I paid a deposit on a property in late 2008. I haven't received contracts yet. I rang the estate agent and asked if their client had got a BER cert. Their response was along the lines of 'oh well, we'll see if one is needed - the transaction is already in progress'. I checked the SEI website and I guess the house is 'sale agreed' rather than 'for sale'. I guess my solicitor will insist on one if it's needed....?? Should the vendor provide me with one?


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## Bob_tg (20 Jan 2009)

At risk of getting side-tracked into politics, this is an example of Green policies which aren't really thought through practically.


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## PADDYBOY99 (21 Jan 2009)

Lollix said:


> Given the huge range of values over BER certs for the same building, the best BER cert would seem to be the cheapest one. It is my view that anyone who can do a certification for less than 100 euro will make a fortune; all he or she has to do is pick a number based on a general quick look at the property. Such an approach will be as useful as the current situation, and as meaningful. Cheapest is definitely best in this case.


 
Just in relaton to the above comment. I would beware of someone who claims to do a BER for 100 Euro. 
What is said above is partially true. With a property of a certain vintage the software uses a lot of assumptions regarding uvalues, building material etc. However if a BER is done correctly a correction factor has to be added for any alterations carried out to the dwelling. To carry out these calculations takes a bit of time. Given that that a BER done correctly should take approximately half a day, between travel, measuring and finally calculations, and given that there is a 25 Euro Plus VAT draw down,
I would be cautious as to anyone who claims to do a BER correctly for 100 Euro.
Be sure to ask their back round and how much experience they may have ion the building Industry. remember if you have done any work to your Dwelling it is very important to see the benifit in your rating.


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## Jack2008 (21 Jan 2009)

But how useful is the BER is the question?
If its useless but necessary then it makes sense to go with the cheapest?
Are there any consequences to not having one and who is checking/ensuring that the general public are complying?
Who is assessing the assessor? Appears to me that if you pay the approx €2,000 fee anyone with any sort of a construction background can be certified?


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## Lollix (21 Jan 2009)

PADDYBOY99 said:


> Just in relaton to the above comment. I would beware of someone who claims to do a BER for 100 Euro.
> What is said above is partially true. With a property of a certain vintage the software uses a lot of assumptions regarding uvalues, building material etc. However if a BER is done correctly a correction factor has to be added for any alterations carried out to the dwelling. To carry out these calculations takes a bit of time. Given that that a BER done correctly should take approximately half a day, between travel, measuring and finally calculations, and given that there is a 25 Euro Plus VAT draw down,
> I would be cautious as to anyone who claims to do a BER correctly for 100 Euro.
> Be sure to ask their back round and how much experience they may have ion the building Industry. remember if you have done any work to your Dwelling it is very important to see the benifit in your rating.


 
You're missing my point.

There is a huge variance in results, so no matter how much you pay for a BER there is no certainty that it is any way accurate. In fact, the likelihood is that it is inaccurate.

Add to that the fact that you are just obliged to have a BER, not to do anything about it.

In the case of apartments in particular, you can't do much about it anyway, since you don't own the building, just a "cell" within the structure.

Therefore, cheapest is best, if you want to take this from a standpoint of the owner. If I was in the business of renting property in Ireland, my best interests would be served by getting the cheapest BER possible, regardless of its accuracy.

Given the inaccuracy of results currently, a cheap and poorly carried out inspection, with an end result based on an educated guess by the inspector, has as much chance of being accurate as an expensive one where the inspector spent half a day playing with his software.

This whole BER nonsense is a bit like the Safepass scheme for building workers. Herd fifty potential labourers into a room, charge them fifty quid each, and at the end of the day give them an exam that nobody ever fails. Hey presto! Fifty qualified building workers. The only benefits that accrued from the Safepass scheme were gained by the training companies; safety improvements were made on sites by builders driven by a mixture of legislation and insurance costs. The safepass nonsense was a badly thought out scheme that made lots of sense to some clerk at a desk in a government department somewhere, same as this BER racket.


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## Jack2008 (21 Jan 2009)

Lollix, 

I totally agree with you! I know guys who passed the safe pass and could barely write their own name but sure they paid the fee so they pass the test!!

More bureaucratic bull****! 

The only people who will gain anything from this is the trainers and the assessors! When buying a house surely any surveyor worth their salt would be able to tell you how energy effiecent the house is!

I also note that no would be assessors are on here to answer the questions above? I wonder why that is???


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## ninsaga (21 Jan 2009)

I've posted this in a separate thread...but I think it worthwhile posting it here also... just so people are aware of how the BER "works"
_______________________________
A side step to this topic but related......
I frequently read the Woodpellet Blog Spot. There is a link to an article in the Times Online with regard to the BER assessors (in terms of rating & cost). As part of their research, they got 3 diff companies in Dublin to assess one house..... and as expected, three different ratings provided, 3 different costs & 3 different lenghts of time taken to assess each house.

The rant in the blogspot points clearly at the SEI which is essentially a license for any SEI 'installer' or 'approver' to print money.

Worth a read.


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## bond-007 (21 Jan 2009)

It costs €2000 for the 1 week course, €1000 to register with SEI and €100 each year thereafter. SEI also gets €35 for each cert issued.

Now that is some scam.


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## Bob_tg (21 Jan 2009)

bond-007 said:


> It costs €2000 for the 1 week course, €1000 to register with SEI and €100 each year thereafter. SEI also gets €35 for each cert issued.
> 
> Now that is some scam.


 
Can anyone follow these steps are there prerequisites (e.g. engineering diploma or professional membership or even Leaving Cert)?


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## Jack2008 (21 Jan 2009)

€2000 for a weeks course and €1000 to register 

There are 1,383 BER assessors registered (to date) with the SIE, thats €2,7million in course fees alone, 21 training colleges, that €138,300.00 on average per training house!
Add to that the €1,3million that SIE have gotten (to date) from registered assessors alone (not including the €35 per assessement )and try to tell me that its not a scam?? 

I've said it before "jobs for the boys"!


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## bond-007 (21 Jan 2009)

Bob_tg said:


> Can anyone follow these steps are there prerequisites (e.g. engineering diploma or professional membership or even Leaving Cert)?


It says you need a level 6 craft qualification or relevant life experience.
Being an electrician seems to be enough from my enquiries.


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## PADDYBOY99 (22 Jan 2009)

Do you not feel an electrician is capable of becoming one?


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## bond-007 (22 Jan 2009)

Not at all.


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## dereko1969 (22 Jan 2009)

are you not all missing the point? this document will be used by purchasers and renters of properties in order to inform them whether the house they're buying/renting will have high or low energy bills. if i was buying a house and found 2 that were very similar price wise i think the BER would definitely have an impact on which i would buy, it would also give me leverage to seek a lower price from a lower BER rated house owner. 
as for blaming the greens i'm fairly sure this is an EU mandated scheme that we are already a couple of years behind in implementing.
what i would like to know is, if i purchase a house and the BER is way out of kilter with my energy bills will i have a comeback against either the seller or the BER assessor?


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## Bob_tg (22 Jan 2009)

dereko1969 said:


> as for blaming the greens i'm fairly sure this is an EU mandated scheme that we are already a couple of years behind in implementing.


 
It's not that the idea is bad...it's the way we go about it that's the problem.


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## minion (22 Jan 2009)

Just as i suspected.  I got a BER Assessor (€150 per apartment) to rate 2 apartments.  I offered him €50 each for a better rating than what he got.  He played with a few figures and phoned me back.

I wont say what happened.  Lets just say im happy.


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## Lollix (22 Jan 2009)

Bob_tg said:


> It's not that the idea is bad...it's the way we go about it that's the problem.


That sums it up nicely. Somewhere along the line a good idea (to make developers build houses and apartments that were energy efficient) got sidetracked by some clerk to create a costly jungle of mindless red tape that just created opportunity for BER test firms.
Sure, you have to have a system to measure the energy rating of homes, but what was the point of doing it this way? Better by far to start with new houses, then work backwards as you develop a *workable* system.
To get back to the original query, the current BER regime is a farce, with unacceptable variances in test results and no outcome if a home is below par. I still believe, given the realities, that anyone renting out a house is better of with the cheapest possible BER cert, regardless of what it means.


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## Bronte (23 Jan 2009)

minion said:


> Just as i suspected. I got a BER Assessor (€150 per apartment) to rate 2 apartments. I offered him €50 each for a better rating than what he got. He played with a few figures and phoned me back.
> 
> I wont say what happened. Lets just say im happy.


  I'm not a bit surprised and should I be selling I'll be going with the Assessor who'll give me the best rating.  This whole scheme is madness.


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## S.L.F (23 Jan 2009)

bronte said:


> i'm not a bit surprised and should i be selling i'll be going with the assessor who'll give me the best rating. This whole scheme is madness.


 

+1


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## noelf (23 Jan 2009)

Noelf did not pay them, We offered them the chance to tender for a few hundred units, part of the Tender process was to test one property, and it happened to one of mine. the two that got the closest rating got it. problem is they could have been the worst of a bad lot or the better of a bad lot,,, time will tell
So I got 5 free BER's and two guys got the gig.
Hey guys its not rocket science......


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## S.L.F (23 Jan 2009)

dereko1969 said:


> are you not all missing the point? this document will be used by purchasers and renters of properties in order to inform them whether the house they're buying/renting will have high or low energy bills. if i was buying a house and found 2 that were very similar price wise i think the BER would definitely have an impact on which i would buy, it would also give me leverage to seek a lower price from a lower BER rated house owner.


 
Yes but how can we trust the ratings given?

3 different asessors giving 3 different results speaks volumes to me.

If I wanted to know what it would cost to heat a house I'd ask for the ESB bills, it might not tell you the whole story but it would give an indicator.


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## PADDYBOY99 (24 Jan 2009)

minion said:


> Just as i suspected. I got a BER Assessor (€150 per apartment) to rate 2 apartments. I offered him €50 each for a better rating than what he got. He played with a few figures and phoned me back.
> 
> I wont say what happened. Lets just say im happy.


 
I hope you reported him/her. Its is people like them who ruin it for everyone else. It is an automatic strike off offence.


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## minion (24 Jan 2009)

PADDYBOY99 said:


> I hope you reported him/her. Its is people like them who ruin it for everyone else. It is an automatic strike off offence.




Of course i didnt.  He did me a favour.


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## ajapale (24 Jan 2009)

Closed for consideration by moderators.

aj
Moderator


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