# Non-graduate unemployable at 47



## billybobmac (18 Apr 2011)

I discovered an unwelcome truth this weekend. A new company opening locally was holding an open day for prospective employees so I went along. I stayed 10 minutes, as was told there was nothing for me without a relevant 3rd level qualification. It is fair that some of the jobs require a degree – but all of them? I left school in the early 80’s with a good Leaving Cert and a pass Certificate in Secretarial studies. I emigrated and got work, that was when a good Irish Leaving Cert was respected, so I never had trouble getting work and stayed away for 15 years. I came back to Ireland in 2000, and managed to find an excellent job which lasted until 2008 when I was made redundant. The next few years were spent rearing children, running our own business (which subsequently failed) and furthering my education in a career which I thought would be worthwhile, Childcare. The Childcare thing didn’t work out – it’s just not for me. So I really focussed on getting back into the workplace and was lucky enough to get a job on a fixed term contract. Unfortunately I will not be made full time, the reason they gave is that I have little in the way of formal education and the competition is fierce, although I suspect that they only want to hire short term contracts and not full timers anyway. I have spoken to agencies of the same opinion, my CV is excellent regarding work experience, but too light on qualifications. It actually appears to me that I am unemployable in this country – yes there are jobs, but only for graduates or low wage workers. I am looking into doing some sort of Business Admin but I will be 48 by the time that is complete, and I am not even sure if I am academically capable. 

So, is that it? Am I now unemployable due to a lack of formal education? Are there lots of people in same position? Left school in the 80’s and went straight into jobs, and now find ourselves unwanted because we didn’t choose to further our education? What is to become of us then? The most remarkable aspect of this ‘we only employ graduates’ ethic is that these jobs are not worthy of degrees – mostly a bit of cop-on and experience is required. It appears that Heads of Dept get brownie points for the number of graduates on their team. 

The future is looking bleak, if only graduates can have a hope of getting work. There are enough of those out of work as it is. 

Demotivated....
BBMc


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## z107 (18 Apr 2011)

As job competition increases, these companies find easy ways to filter CVs.

I suspect that in the future, if not already, a masters or phd will be required. So the people with degrees now, will be like people leaving in the 80s with good leaving cert.

Have you considered working in a different country?


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## Scotsgirl (18 Apr 2011)

hi Billybobmac,

If it makes you feel any better, I didn't have a formal education, left school at 16, so didn't even sit my leaving cert, and have always done reasonably well job wise.  I am now 46 working in the financial industry.  My last career change was 5 years ago.  I agree it it tougher as you get older and my thoughts were it was for monetary reasons rather than education.  

I believe that if you are enthuastic and hard working, willing to learn, that there will eventually be a company that will appreciate that and give you a chance.  Most of the people in the companies I have worked for would have third level degrees but they were still willing to hire me. I have very good experience at this stage after working so long and have picked up skills along the way. I know some companies still won't even look at me without a leaving cert but I believe that's their loss 

I truly believe a good working history/references, is much better than a degree.  Some people I have worked with, who have degrees, would have no cop on whatsoever when it comes to quite simple tasks.

I wish you the best of luck and hopefully something good will come your way soon.  Don't give up!


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## truthseeker (18 Apr 2011)

It cant be that only graduates get jobs, there are thousands of people out there without a formal qualification.

What kind of work was it Billybobmac that the company only wanted graduates?


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## billybobmac (18 Apr 2011)

Hi Truthseeker 
The industry is automotive - developing systems to improve driving safety, the product line is in Galway.  The point is this should have been ideal for someone who worked within a manufacturing team up to 2007 (clean room, etc) but now you can't get a look in without an engineering degree.  As umop3p!sdn says, in the 80's a good LC was acceptable, now it's a phd.  I am looking abroad, in the hope that elsewhere still have unskilled entry level jobs on offer.
Scotsgirl, that is encouraging, well done to you, it's good to hear of these stories, you are obviously driven!  And to be honest, up until this current job search, that would have been my own story - I never regretted not deleloping my education, until now.  And therein lies the scary part, because if that's the lay of the land, then long term unemployment in my age group is inevitable.
Thanks though - it is early days!


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## Guest105 (18 Apr 2011)

billybobmac - I recently emigrated to the UK and I can tell you that in alot of the jobs experience and the accumulation of life skills counts more here than professional qualifications. 

I think there are alot of people unemployed in Ireland relative to the overall population and the chances of finding meaningful work whether with or without qualifications is quite remote. 

Don't dismiss the idea of returning to education to attain some professional qualification and dont let age put you off, I did it when I was in my early forties and completed and earned my degree at the grand old age of 44.


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## dereko1969 (18 Apr 2011)

billybobmac said:


> Hi Truthseeker
> The industry is automotive - developing systems to improve driving safety, the product line is in Galway. The point is this should have been ideal for someone who worked within a manufacturing team up to 2007 (clean room, etc) but now you can't get a look in without an engineering degree. As umop3p!sdn says, in the 80's a good LC was acceptable, now it's a phd. I am looking abroad, in the hope that elsewhere still have *unskilled entry level jobs on offer.*
> Scotsgirl, that is encouraging, well done to you, it's good to hear of these stories, you are obviously driven! And to be honest, up until this current job search, that would have been my own story - I never regretted not deleloping my education, until now. And therein lies the scary part, because if that's the lay of the land, then long term unemployment in my age group is inevitable.
> Thanks though - it is early days!


 
But you're not unskilled - you have the requisite skills, just not what is perceived as the requisite qualification.

I think if you can find the right person to help you with tailoring your CV for different jobs that would help a lot. Even re-formatting it so that the first thing the HR person sees isn't education - put your experience up top, excellent experience in clean room working or whatever, so that you're putting your positives up front rather than what they would perceive as negatives.

From what I understand of these things, the HR people are probably looking for an excuse not to interview people so they will use the easiest thing to knock someone out of the list.

Best of luck anyway.


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## horusd (18 Apr 2011)

An old HR saying that is still valid is that 90% of people are hired and fired on attitude, and experience counts as evidence of  long-term knowldge & ability to perform which is valuable in itself. You need to highlight this, perhaps even draw attention to this distinction in  the cover letter, just in case an HR person stupidly would overlook it.


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## colm5 (18 Apr 2011)

umop3p!sdn said:


> As job competition increases, these companies find easy ways to filter CVs.
> 
> I suspect that in the future, if not already, a masters or phd will be required. So the people with degrees now, will be like people leaving in the 80s with good leaving cert.


 
This is already the case, I know of a) 4 year degree only requirements, b) Masters only c) PhD only requirements

and this is for jobs that people with diplomas did only 3 years ago.

I feel the bottom line is that its so easy to get a masters here that they have lost their appeal, and do not represent a high standard in education anymore, so employers want more.
People without qualifications, but may be very good employees, are automatically overlooked.


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## JoeB (18 Apr 2011)

I'm surprised at some of the comments.

I don't think anyone would advise hiring a PhD person to operate a till in a petrol station, even if the wages to be paid are the same. The PhD is overqualified, and will likely bolt if another opportunity arises.

My point is that there are people with the correct level of education and the correct level of ambition for working in a petrol station, .. and having a PhD computer scientist is overkill, and un-neccessary.

So employers are being silly in my opinion by insisting on qualifications if none are required. They may have high staff turnover,.  and the staff may become bored.. whereas there are people who be'd very suited for the job, who'd like it, and who wouldn't be constantly seeking to move up. Those people are more suitable for employment in that particular job which they match up with.

Qualifications don't always mean anything. I have met computer programmers with degrees from Trinity who didn't understand basic aspects of computer programming... very basic stuff to be honest. Doesn't really reflect well on the quality of degrees available.


The problem will be bigger in the future, as many young people have no qualifications now, as many left school early to take high paying jobs in construction, .. where it wasn't uncommon for new labourers to earn more than their parents.


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## Jim2007 (18 Apr 2011)

Regardless of one's opinion on the worth of a degree, the bottom line is that if it is a requirement and you don't have one, then you will not even get of the starting block!

For someone in their early forties with 20+ years to go before retirement, it seems to me that the best option is to get a qualification rather than simply hoping to get by on a wing and a prayer.  20+ years is just too long to count on luck.

Jim.


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## billybobmac (19 Apr 2011)

Thanks for great advice and comments - I'm inclined to do the Bus Admin course, as Jim2007 points out, if that is what is required then just do it. 20+ years is a long time so I think a year off trying to find work is justifiable.

The husband is heading to London, from this and other threads there seems to be more scope there. I worry about how the mindset seems to be changing in Ireland, we seem to be heading backwards and looking in the wrong direction. From my own time on a fixed term contract and also the vibe from agencies 'there is very little permanent work on offer' and the competition for contract work is crazy. Employers are happy to take on over-qualified staff at the risk they might jump ship, as there is a pool of equally qualified resources readily available to step in. Also there seems to be a reluctance to fill all requirements with full time staff, as this weakens the position of the employer during the bad times. Those 'huge' redundancies must have hurt (a little!) 

I remember reading about the insecurity of working conditions in the US, when people 'lived to work' , putting in long hours and sucking up to the boss because that was how they kept the job. I am seeing this culture creeping in here (although some of it was always here) - I know of one company employing people on a month by month contract, there is a waiting list.  These are not fixed term contracts, as they are employed directly through an agency.  The pressure to perform and toe the line during that month must be horrendous. It's all in the employer's court now, with little regard for the individual. I suppose loyalty is no longer of any value in an employee.


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## Lamorna (25 Apr 2011)

Hi Billybobmac,

I've been jobhunting in London for a while and the jobmarket definitely seems to have more to offer than in the small English town where I'm based now. They hire foreigners more readily too, including for office work.

You have _plenty_ of work experience, and in the UK the 'no degree' thing is not such a handicap. Many people don't even bother to take A'levels. In fact, some managers seem to resent graduates, or people who went to university, including mature students. I've been told several times that studying with the Open University (Maths and Science modules) was a waste of time, and even that it was a sign of laziness!!! 
In recent years, especially with the rise in youth unemployment, there had been a trend towards young people staying in education after 15, rather than heading for the jobmarket. However, with the rise in uni fees, and the drop in the number of uni places on offer, this trend looks set to reverse. 

Bear in mind that some 'graduate jobs' (in the UK and in France, don't know abuot Ireland) are underpaid: employers take advantage from the fact that most graduates never had a job (except maybe for bar-tending a couple of hours a week) but lived off their credit card/student loan. As they've always borrowed, they don't really know the value of things. Yesterday I saw 'graduate' jobs in financial admin advertised £14K pa, in London!!!!!

One thing that you have to be prepared for is that some employers in the UK just won't hire foreigners, because of the high youth unemployment: their mentality is 'British jobs for British people'. 2 weeks ago, I applied to a job for which I really had the skills and experience, through an agency which has never ever called me back about a job - in 4 years. I've even dropped in a couple of times (the last time being two weeks ago, about that vacancy) to argue my case but was always told I didn't have the required skills: 2 weeks ago, the consultant seemed dubious that a foreigner could be proficient in the use of Excel. Anyway, the people they put forward did not do successfully at the interview, so the employer advertised the job again, through a different agency. I applied again, and this time I've been shortlisted! I hope I'll get that job...
Last week, another agency justified their refusal with 'you don't have Maths and English GCSEs'. It's not the first time, and it won't be the last. Having half completed a degree in the UK (in my spare time after work too) does not count. 

Some recruitment/temping agencies employ (very) young graduates: I've been interviewed by 22-something 'blondes', who would not understand that in my country (France) there are no student loans, and the high youth unemployment makes it impossible to work one's way through uni (especially in Paris where renting is very expensive) so either you are eligible to student's benefits (criteria of assessment: your social background and your parents' income tax) or your parents fork out. They just jumped to the conclusion: no degree = moron. 
I get the impression too that a lot of young people are prejudiced against older, experienced workers. I don't remember it being like that in my days. 

If you have a strong Irish accent, it could be a handicap in some places. I've known a South African lady (Caucasian, and whose family was originary from the UK) who was asked the question: 'where did you learn to speak English?' If that happens, just don't let it put you off and try another agency. 
The same applies if there is a lot of foreign-bashing, or even Irish-bashing in your workplace (it's the case in my company and for the past 5 months the French-bashing has become particularly vile and goes on non stop, all day long - I'm not even ethnically French, I'm celtic!): just try to move to another company asap. 
London is full of expats, so this shouldn't be as much of a problem as if you were to relocate to a small town in the UK.

Do you have any experience that could help you land a 'manager' role? Your age would not be so much an issue there.

Good luck!


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## Guest105 (25 Apr 2011)

Lamorna - I lived and worked in London in the past and I am now back working there once again. I have had very positive experiences in my dealings with the recruitment agencies and I can honestly say I have never ever experienced any sort of racism or Irish-Bashing as you call it, in fact my soft Irish brogue goes down a real treat with the natives.


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## billybobmac (26 Apr 2011)

Hi Lamorna

Fingers crossed you get that job, and best of luck to you.  Thank you for sharing your experience -  I cannot believe that the degree you have completed in your spare time does not cancel out the lack of GCSE’s!   I worry that employers have an abundance of talent to choose from, and are blindsided by the diplomas and degrees, therefore ignoring the value of experience and maturity.  I see employers planning for the short term rather than really building for the future, possibly as a result of the vast and shocking changes we have witnessed in the last ten years globally.  Look at the impact Japan’s earthquake had – my own company has put an embargo on recruiting as a result of that.   Maybe this emphasis on short term planning is just in Ireland, but as Ireland tends to look to USA, then I think it’s more of a global trend.   

Free third level education in Ireland is a double-edge sword.   For a start, it’s actually quite expensive, exam fees, books, equipment, accommodation, etc.   The uptake to go onto Uni amongst the under-privileged is actually quite low, I can’t say for sure, but would say the highest uptake is from private schools.   If these graduates then gain employment simply on the basis of their education, then the chances of promotion to management on the same basis is high.  Then these same managers only employ those with third level education.  It’s self perpetuating.   I have actually been told by a manager here that they will only employ people with at least diploma level education.  To me this is a serious problem for Ireland, (I’m not even going to go down the route that this implies you are only worthwhile if you have been to Uni!!)  Somebody is going to have to get a grip here – education is not for everybody!

Sorry if I’ve gone off topic!!  On the subject of ‘Irish-bashing’ – I spent sometime in the UK and never experienced anything like it from agencies or employers.  I hope this hasn’t changed, it would be a terrible shame.  My husband is non-Irish and has had some bad experiences here – but as this is from a very small faceless minority we put it down to ignorance and poor upbringing.


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## Diziet (7 May 2011)

billybobmac said:


> Hi Lamorna
> 
> Fingers crossed you get that job, and best of luck to you.  Thank you for sharing your experience -  I cannot believe that the degree you have completed in your spare time does not cancel out the lack of GCSE’s!
> 
> ...



Best of luck in your job search. It is hard for everyone at the moment, but not impossible. A couple of things stand out: In response to the person who cited lack of GCSEs, I fail to understand why anyone who has completed a degree would list GCSEs on their CV. They should drop off; they are relevant if a degree is not there, to show academic ability, but not necessary to put on at all with a degree!

Now, the 'problem' of everyone having degrees is not just confined to Ireland (nor is it necessarily a problem). The biggest driver of educational achievement in children is the socio-economic status of the parents. This is the case worldwide. More people go to university now, so surely this is a good thing - more educated population overall. If you look at the UK, you will see the same drive towards degrees. It does mean that the academic qualities of graduates are lower than 30 years ago, when a smaller percentage went to university, but that's not unexpected. Overall the level is up.

Accept that this is how it is. Brush up the CV, bring the experience forward, use your network and get some up to date qualifications. Education is actually enjoyable and challenging and there are people much older than you returning to education, so don't see that as a barrier.


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## lff12 (24 May 2011)

billybobmac said:


> So, is that it? Am I now unemployable due to a lack of formal education? Are there lots of people in same position? Left school in the 80’s and went straight into jobs, and now find ourselves unwanted because we didn’t choose to further our education?


 
In fairness, I have lots of former colleagues who are unemployed for over a year or more at 35 for the same reason.  It does partly depend on your industry and what roles you carry out.  If most people in your profession tend to have a degrees, then not having one is a liability.  But having a degree in a non vocational subject is also sometimes seen as a negative point, so there are lots of Arts grads out there just as frustrated as you are (in fact I have a second degree myself, because I discovered having a Music degree was regarded by some employers as having bubonic plague).

If you are not in a professional when degrees are common or the norm, its more complex.  In this case you are definitely not unemployable but need to find other aspects to make you stand out.  I found this before I embarked on my 2nd degree.  You really do have to work harder on the job seeking front and sometimes you do have to accept that some places just won't like you.  I went through a 4-interview nightmare with one company in Cork 3 times before I accepted that really, I was never going to get a job there, no matter how many times I tried.

What I would suggest is looking at options like Open University as they do give you some credits for prior work experience.  Definitely consider going back to 3rd level because lots of people to be honest, in your position (I'm not saying this is you, but its an attitude I encounter), look down on graduates and think they are one better because they don't have a degree or diploma.  A lot of them get a rude awakening.  In 3 years you can definitely get a diploma or pass degree, and believe me, nothing looks better on your CV than the message that you are not a know-it-all who cannot learn more, no matter what your age.

I did find that being a working class graduate with a non vocational degree hard because traditional non graduate roles viewed me with suspicion, and I hadn't the social contacts to get a foot in the door in better jobs.  But over the years I persisted and I eventually found niches for myself.

I think what you have to realise is that 3rd level education doesn't end when you are 21, there is more to it than full time courses, and there are lots of options you can enter later on.


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## lff12 (24 May 2011)

umop3p!sdn said:


> As job competition increases, these companies find easy ways to filter CVs.
> 
> I suspect that in the future, if not already, a masters or phd will be required. So the people with degrees now, will be like people leaving in the 80s with good leaving cert.


 
Not really, masters degrees tend to be very specific so unless its in the right area, it rarely means much.  That said in the public sector they do like to have a masters in management - but that sector is essentially shut down for anybody outside it.

In the 80s I recall it was the same - you needed a degree to get many entry level posts, many of these didn't open up again until the end of the 90s - things like call centers!  Not because you needed a degree but because then, like now, there were tens of thousands of unemployed graduates who would do anything.

The big problem in the 80s as I recall was the criticism that you needed a leaving cert to get an interview for Quinnsworth etc!!


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