# Restaurant - Service Charge



## Debasser (25 Aug 2005)

Am I a bit odd in finding the whole idea of a "service charge" in a restaurant to be ridiculous? Surely the idea of eating out is to have your food served to you & the price of a course should always factor in the cost of service. Adding 10-15% at the end of your bill just doesn't seem fair.


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## Cahir (25 Aug 2005)

If I see a service charge on a bill for less than 6 or 8 people I don't tip.  The service charge is normally less than I'd tip (depending on level of service of course) so the restaurant are the ones losing out.


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## SteelBlue05 (25 Aug 2005)

Never tip if there is a service charge!


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## ClubMan (25 Aug 2005)

As far as I know service charges in restaurants are discretionary, even if they are presented as mandatory, and the restaurant cannot enforce payment if you dispute it on the basis of poor service.


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## CCOVICH (25 Aug 2005)

I guess that's fair enough, as you wouldn't pay for the food if it was poor, would you, so why pay for poor service?

When you say 'discretionary' are you sure? I would have thought that as long as you know you're being charged for something in advance, there's nothing to stop them is there? All restaurants have a 'service charge' of some sort incorporated into their prices (i.e. the recovery of staff costs). I generally tip when eating out (having spent many years as a waiter and barman myself), but usually don't if there's a service charge (unless service is exceptional). What would bother me about a service charge is that the restaurant owner might pocket this at the expense of the staff? I remember working in a restaurant where tour bus tips were collected by the manager and we always felt short changed when we got our share as it was a pittance compared to what we expected.


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## ClubMan (25 Aug 2005)

CCOVICH said:
			
		

> When you say 'discretionary' are you sure?


Not 100% sure. I seem to recall finding something confirming this ages ago but I can't find anything authoritative now. It may be that, like not paying for a bad meal itself, it is an measure that would only be employed in extreme circumstances rather than as a matter of course. If I challenged the restaurant on service charges and did happen to return then I'd be checking my food for additional discretionary "ingredients" next time around.


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## CCOVICH (25 Aug 2005)

Heh heh. At least you know some of the behind the scenes antics that happen in restaurants then. Best not to think about anything that may have happened to your food en route to the table .  If it tastes good, isn't moving and you survive the night, than no harm done eh?


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## Debasser (25 Aug 2005)

Was just throwing out the question as its something for some strange reason that really annoys me. I have no problem paying 11 Euro for a meal in restaurant A but paying 10 Euro plus 10% serrvice charge in restaurant B for the exact same meal would seriously p#ss me off!! Surely the whole point of being in a restaurant & one of the reasons you pay that bit extra is to have your food served to you. Maybe all this time they've being serving it to me for free ..
On another point I always tip good service & always make a point where a service charge is applied of informing the waiting staff that had there been no service charge I would have been more generous.
Also I would love to know where this service charge goes?


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## CCOVICH (25 Aug 2005)

Why would paying €11 vs. paying €11 (€10 + 10%) for the same meal in different restaurants pi$$ you off?  Surely it's just a different method of displaying a price, i.e. the €11 includes service, but €10 doesn't?


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## daltonr (25 Aug 2005)

> Why would paying €11 vs. paying €11 (€10 + 10%) for the same meal in different restaurants pi$$ you off? Surely it's just a different method of displaying a price, i.e. the €11 includes service, but €10 doesn't?


 
Because when the prices are listed on the menu or in the window, that should be the price you pay.   I don't agree with this idea of separating out parts of the cost to the  consumer to create an illusion of better value.

It's the Ryanair Model.  Headline price looks cheap, but every single thing they can is broken out into a special charge.  They even tried listing Wheelchair levy as a separate charge.

Why not have Free Flights on every route and in the small print list every concievable cost to the airline.

Pilot Fee €20
Fuel Fee €25
Cabin Crew €50
etc. etc.


The price listed should be the price you pay be it a restaurant or any other business.
Unless there's a very good reason for separating it out.  Like an optional charge.

I'm with the poster above.   If a service charge is automatically added I don't tip unless the service is really really top notch.   The automatically added charge is usually less than I would normally tip.

I find it's rare for a charge to be automatically added for parties of less than 8 though.

Has anyone noticed that Chip And Pin makes it slightly harder to give a Tip.  Not all restaurants show you the Gratuity Screen to enter a tip amount.

I usually prefer to tip in cash even if paying by credit card, so I know it has a better chance of getting to the person who served me.   But sometimes you need to use the card.

-Rd


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## CCOVICH (25 Aug 2005)

daltonr said:
			
		

> Because when the prices are listed on the menu or in the window, that should be the price you pay. I don't agree with this idea of separating out parts of the cost to the consumer to create an illusion of better value.



It's not an illusion-any place I've seen a service charge has it clearly advertised on the menu on the window and on the menu in the restaurant.  And it's not like 10% is hard to calculate.

A few Chinese restaurants around Dublin have service charges on all meals,  but  in general it is only on parties of 6/8 or more in most other restaurants.

I would agree about the chip and pin, but many places didn't have a gratuity option on the slip to sign anyway.  And yes it's easier to leave cash, and you can generally be sure that the person who served you will get it, but then again you mightn't have change to leave on the table.


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## Seagull (26 Aug 2005)

My biggest issue with an automatic service charge is that I don't know where it's going. I can be fairly sure the tip I leave will go to the staff, and not straight to the management. My other objection to it is in the case of really bad service where I have to get into an argument with the restaurant management. If I get poor service in a restaurant without a service charge, I can leave a very small token tip to make the point.


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## Sol28 (26 Aug 2005)

Seagull said:
			
		

> If I get poor service in a restaurant without a service charge, I can leave a very small token tip to make the point.



Why would you leave a tip at all - Tipping to me is a way of saying thanks for a service above the job description. I dont buy in to automatic tipping or the excuse that the staff get paid low wages. If tipping becomes "manditory" - what will encourage the management to ever pay their staff a proper wage.


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## bacchus (26 Aug 2005)

If you tip, do not add the tip on your laser/credit card.. leave cash, otherwise it is very likely the waiter/waiteress wouldn't actually get the tip.

Some restaurants do take a % of the tip from their staff!!! In one particular, restaurant, owner takes 35% of the tips, manager takes 30%, the rest goes to the service & kitchen staff.....

In some countries, France being one, the service charges is "bundled" into the price you see on the menu (i think it is 17.5%!!) . So, no tipping required.
This is why French restaurant staff loves English/Irish/American.. they get 10/15% tip on the top of the bill which already includes service charges of 17.5%.  Sweet....


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## CCOVICH (26 Aug 2005)

When I worked in a certain restauarant we used to take the cash value of credit card tips out of the till as we processed them.  The owner then took the full amount of the credit card payment.  Thus you got the value of your credit card tips on the night.  I am aware of other restaurants where this was done, so it could be common enough practice.


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## GreatDane (27 Aug 2005)

bacchus said:
			
		

> .... In one particular, restaurant, owner takes 35% of the tips, manager takes 30%, the rest goes to the service & kitchen staff.....
> 
> ....


 

*Name & Shame Please*
This is entirely unacceptable & we should all be made aware of it, so we can avoid it, until they start treating their stafff fairly.



I don't like the idea of putting a % service charge on top of the bill, I'm with "the Dalton Gang" (sounds like a gang of old cowboy types ) and beleive the price advertised should be the final price charged etc.

I've no problem with tipping, when service has been very good but hate the feeling that you must tip ... it's becoming too muck like the USA over here these days.

Also, why do we have to pay a service charge, of an additional 10% or more, when we are in a group of over 6 or 8 people ? ... it's rubbish, there is no difference to there being 4 groups of 2 people at 4 different tables.

Simply put: *It's a Resturants obligation to pay their staff, not ours*

Perhaps we should start a thread where we have found resturants that charge service charges and consider boycotting them ? 

Regards


G>


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## ClubMan (27 Aug 2005)

Garrettod said:
			
		

> Also, why do we have to pay a service charge, of an additional 10% or more, when we are in a group of over 6 or 8 people ? ... it's rubbish, there is no difference to there being 4 groups of 2 people at 4 different tables.


Perhaps because when there is a table of 6+ people then it takes more effort in the kitchen etc. to time the preparation of that number of starters, main courses etc. so that they all arrive together than if there are three tables of two etc.?



> Simply put: *It's a Resturants obligation to pay their staff, not ours*


But the customer generates the revenue that allows this to happen. I can't see the problem as long as the service charge is clearly stated on the price list/menu (as I presume is the legal obligation) allowing the customer to make an informed decision as to whether they want to make a purchase or not.


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## GreatDane (27 Aug 2005)

ClubMan said:
			
		

> Perhaps because when there is a table of 6+ people then it takes more effort in the kitchen etc. to time the preparation of that number of starters, main courses etc. so that they all arrive together than if there are three tables of two etc.? ....


 
Hi

Yea, maybe, but it certainly does not justify the kind of exta charge that can be up to 15% imho.  

I'd have thought that if anything, the restuarant would be pleased to have a definite 6 or more customers coming in (easier to get this in 1 booking, than 3-4 imho)

Cheers

G>
http://www.rpoints.com/newbie


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## ClubMan (27 Aug 2005)

If you don't like the service charge then don't patronise the establishment. Simple.


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## GreatDane (28 Aug 2005)

ClubMan said:
			
		

> If you don't like the service charge then don't patronise the establishment. Simple.


 
Agree entirely, but sometimes these don't come to light until your seated and having a drink, having first sat down, taken your coat off etc etc.

I wish we had a strict policy with all restuarants in Ireland having the menus outside the door /  in the window.  Often, they are available but not always.

Regards


G>
http://www.rpoints.com/newbie


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## ClubMan (28 Aug 2005)

Garrettod said:
			
		

> I wish we had a strict policy with all restuarants in Ireland having the menus outside the door / in the window.


We do:


[broken link removed]
[broken link removed]



> This Order requires that a comprehensive price list must be displayed in the case of every establishment (whether hotel, pub, restaurant, cafe, etc.) which offers food for sale which is intended for consumption on the premises.
> 
> Where the establishment consists solely of one or more food outlets, the notice must be displayed immediately outside or inside the entrance.


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## GreatDane (28 Aug 2005)

Excellent,

Thanks never knew it was legal ... very handy, question is who to report "naughty" restuarants to ? 

Regards

G>
http://www.rpoints.com/newbie


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## RainyDay (28 Aug 2005)

Garrettod said:
			
		

> question is who to report "naughty" restuarants to ?


I'm pretty sure that ODCA is the enforcing body.


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## stuffit (29 Aug 2005)

I only tip if I'm certain the staff will get the entrie tip.  For instance in the Herbert Park Hotel all tips go to the hotel and the staff receive nothing.

I know another restaurant in Temple Bar where the management charges a 20% admin fee for credit card tips.


I don't think it's fair to just tip your waiter. If you get good service and the waiter has time to chat to you it's because other people are doing their jobs well - the bar staff mix the cocktails, the somalier opens the wine for you, the commis staff bring food to the service area and a whole host of people are working behind the scenes in the kitchen.


I think a better arrangement is where everybody gets a share of the tip. Otherwise only the waiting staff have an incentive to perform well.



Ste


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## Seagull (29 Aug 2005)

Sol28 said:
			
		

> Why would you leave a tip at all - Tipping to me is a way of saying thanks for a service above the job description. I dont buy in to automatic tipping or the excuse that the staff get paid low wages. If tipping becomes "manditory" - what will encourage the management to ever pay their staff a proper wage.



When I say a token tip, I mean leaving something in the order of 5 to 10 cents on the table.

I know a number of places pool all the tips and then divide them among the staff. This includes waiting staff, kitchen, bar staff, and even bus boys. The split between the groups varies place to place. The upside of this is that you get something even when your section has a quiet night. The downside is that you only get a small portion of the large tip you bust your gut for. Overall, it tends to drive down the level of service. There's less incentive to do a really good job if the other waiting staff are doing a lousy job, and the tips are pooled.


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## podgerodge (29 Aug 2005)

stuffit said:
			
		

> I know another restaurant in Temple Bar where the management charges a 20% admin fee for credit card tips.
> Ste



Came across this in Dungarvan last week - 10% mandatory service charge for groups of 8 or more - so I asked would the staff get it and they said "less a Credit card charge" 

Told them to take the 10% back off my bill and gave a cash tip instead.  In fairness they had no problem doing this.


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## CCOVICH (29 Aug 2005)

stuffit said:
			
		

> I only tip if I'm certain the staff will get the entrie tip. For instance in the Herbert Park Hotel all tips go to the hotel and the staff receive nothing.



I don't mean to sound like I don't believe you, but are you sure about this?  Why would the staff stand for this?  Do the Herbert Park pay a higher wage in lieu?


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## Guest127 (29 Aug 2005)

wasn't there a court case in britain about credit card tips. and the courts found that if you put the tip on the credit card the establishment was entitled to keep it and not pass it onto the staff. Nearly sure I read this last year. Since then I dont add the tip to the card just leave it on the table or give it to who ever is at the till. I have come across this extra charge for groups as well - I think it's fairly common but its pure crap. Restaurants should be happy with the extra custom. Down side is that service is usually poor when theres a bigger group, at least thats been my experience. worst place I was stitched up  in was Ashford Castle, grossly overrated. was in the bar and ordered a drink. Barman offered to put it on bill. I agreed out of lazyness as much as anything. when I was looking at receipt later saw service charge of 10% on bar tab. Won't fall for that scam again, then again wont be in Ashford Castle again either. was a 'bargain' weekend a few years ago and the best bit about the place was the dungeon bar. only place with any life about it.


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## ClubMan (29 Aug 2005)

I think that room service in a hotel includes an automatic service charge and, even though it's not room service at all, this can apply to drinks ordered in the bar and put on the room tab in some cases.


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## CCOVICH (30 Aug 2005)

ClubMan said:
			
		

> I think that room service in a hotel includes an automatic service charge and, even though it's not room service at all, this can apply to drinks ordered in the bar and put on the room tab in some cases.


 
Have to say I have never seen that happen, and I'm not sure how I would react if it 'happened' to me.  I'll be studying receipts I sign _very carefully_ when charging drinks to my room in future.


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## Martina (31 Aug 2005)

My simple rule of thumb is - meals out at lunch time = I never tip, (becuase €5 on top of lunch can leave it very expensive. For evening dining if there is an service charge then I don't tip and if the serving staff are particularly nice and attentive and there is no service charge, then I leave a tip of €10 regardless of how much the bill is. (this applies to a table of 2-3 people. I leave more of a tip if the table is bigger.)
But tipping is becoming more popular simply because I think the people who get tips try to make you feel bad about not tipping eg Taxi drivers and hairdressers.
It always seems that every taxi driver I get seems to give me a sob story about how hard life is being a taxi driver and how little money there is to be made, and most hair dressers hover around you when your leaving the shop. 
Don't get me wrong, I would like to tip everyone but I'm afraid that I just don't have the money to do so! Your looking at €20 - €30 extra a week on tips! (that is if you were tipping everyone you wanted to tip!


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## GreatDane (31 Aug 2005)

stuffit said:
			
		

> I only tip if I'm certain the staff will get the entrie tip. For instance in the Herbert Park Hotel all tips go to the hotel and the staff receive nothing....
> Ste


 
Hi

You sure, your sure, your sure about this  I have lunch there from time to time, the staff are generally good & I always tend to tip via the old plastic ...

I'd hate to think they don't get the tip, must remember this for the future ... and consider not doing business at the Herbert Park, if this is true.



*I really wish we would bring in the practice in Ireland that I previously saw used in New York ... whereby bad service was acknowledged not by a complaint, but by tipping the "royal sum" of 1 penny (cent if you rather )*

Cheers

G>
http://www.rpoints.com/newbie


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## Seagull (1 Sep 2005)

That's my habit when I encounter really bad service. Find the smallest coin in my wallet, and leave it on the table.


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## Humpback (1 Sep 2005)

Seagull said:
			
		

> That's my habit when I encounter really bad service. Find the smallest coin in my wallet, and leave it on the table.


 
But do you say to the person serving you why you're leaving the meagre tip? 

No point in leaving a small tip to "make a statement" if you're not actually specifically making your opinions known.

If I'd received a crabby tip in my table serving days, the immediate thought would be "what a stingy ould/young ba*tard....". They're unlikely to think - "oh, maybe that gentleman/lady left me a bad tip because my service is poor, so I really must buck up for the future".

May have told this story before, but was in a restaurant in Clifden, party of 15. Food upstairs, drinks downstairs.

Food was fine, service okay, but barman downstairs abused a couple of our party for asking if there were any other places to check out in the town. Innocent enough question. Wanted to check out alternatives, but would most likely have stayed there anyway before abuse happened.

Anyway, coming to pay the bill, I spoke to the head waiter and explained that while we'd no problems with the upstairs part of the experience, we wouldn't be paying a tip because of the events downstairs.

Head waiter was very quick to point out (almost whinged) that it wasn't their fault. I explained that since they all worked for the same person, and were all providing a service to us as a group, overall, we didn't feel like the experience warranted any tip. I said that if he had any problems with that, he should either take it up with the boss or with the barman who'd caused them all the difficulty in the first place.

People can't address problems that you may perceive in a service situation if you don't clearly let them know what the problem you perceive is, and what they may do to fix it in the future.


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## CCOVICH (1 Sep 2005)

If you received a 1c tip, would you seriously believe that the person was stingy as opposed to trying to make a point?

And why take it out on a waiter if there is an ignorant barman?  Why not tip the waiter for a job well done, and then complain to the manager about the ignorant barman, and explain that you're leaving because of this.

I always tip if the service has been good, I don't hold it against service staff if something over which they have no control is crap.

The tip is for service, not the 'experience'.  The experience includes the food, the decor etc.  How are service staff meant to have any control over the wider 'experience'?

I have waited tables in my time.  I despised people like you, i.e. who held me responsible for something outside my control, e.g. the guy and his daughter who had my undivided attention all night, and then left me a 20p tip because a cup of coffee was £1.50.  I mentioned this to my boss,  He didn't care-he had got payment for the coffee, and so was happy.  It didn't make me any better off.


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## ClubMan (1 Sep 2005)

ronan_d_john said:
			
		

> No point in leaving a small tip to "make a statement" if you're not actually specifically making your opinions known.


Dead right. We could all learn a lot from your experience above. The more that people make their opinions known - both bad and good - the better for all of us.


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## Humpback (1 Sep 2005)

CCOVICH said:
			
		

> I always tip if the service has been good, I don't hold it against service staff if something over which they have no control is crap.
> 
> The tip is for service, not the 'experience'. The experience includes the food, the decor etc. How are service staff meant to have any control over the wider 'experience'?
> 
> I have waited tables in my time. I despised people like you, i.e. who held me responsible for something outside my control, e.g. the guy and his daughter who had my undivided attention all night, and then left me a 20p tip because a cup of coffee was £1.50. I mentioned this to my boss, He didn't care-he had got payment for the coffee, and so was happy. It didn't make me any better off.


 
So you're telling me that if the restaurant staff consistently get no tips for their service because the barman downstairs keeps messing it up for them, that nothing would change. 

At some point in time, the barman would either be taken aside by the restaurant staff, or by management if they were complained to by the restaurant staff, and he'd be in no uncertain terms that what he was doing was impacting on peoples incomes upstairs. 

You can be sure that if it's impacting on peoples earning power, something will be said or done about it internally, and overall then the experience would improve for the customer.

And I disagree with you that you can split out different aspects of an experience when you go out. I don't go to a restaurant just to get good service - I can get that at home.

I go out for the food, the surrroundings AND the service. And if I receive all 3, I'm happy, and I'll tip accordingly on the basis of the service I receive. If I don't, I'll withhold the tip, and explain precisely why I'm doing so.

Lets also be perfectly clear on this (and hopefully you won't despise me any more), I will withhold a tip on the basis of service, and service alone. If I don't like paying 1.50 for a coffee, I won't have gone into the place. But if I do go in, and pay 1.50 for a coffee, I'll expect service commensurate for buying coffee at that price - i.e. a far better service than if I went somewhere and paid 0.75 for coffee. And if I get that expected service, I'll tip. No problems there.


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## CCOVICH (1 Sep 2005)

ronan_d_john said:
			
		

> So you're telling me that if the restaurant staff consistently get no tips for their service because the barman downstairs keeps messing it up for them, that nothing would change.
> 
> At some point in time, the barman would either be taken aside by the restaurant staff, or by management if they were complained to by the restaurant staff, and he'd be in no uncertain terms that what he was doing was impacting on peoples incomes upstairs.


 
Maybe the waiting staff would take the barman aside, but you don't know that.  If he was abusive towards customers, what would his attitude have been towards the waiting staff?  And would the manager care?  You paid the bill, and didn't complain to the manager at the time.  Wrt to future business, I'm betting you were tourists, and unlikely to return anyway, so no skin off the manager's/owner's nose (this is precisely why my old boss didn't give two hoots about the complaint about the price of the coffee above).  You could of course name and shame the place, but to be honest, just because I heard that a barman was abusive to certain customers, I don't know it that would stop me eating in a place.  If it happened to me, I would take it up with him directly, or his manager, or the Guards if need be.  I wouldn't hold it against the waiting staff.



			
				ronan_d_john said:
			
		

> You can be sure that if it's impacting on peoples earning power, something will be said or done about it internally, and overall then the experience would improve for the customer.


 
You can't really be sure of anything. 



			
				ronan_d_john said:
			
		

> And I disagree with you that you can split out different aspects of an experience when you go out. I don't go to a restaurant just to get good service - I can get that at home.
> 
> I go out for the food, the surrroundings AND the service. And if I receive all 3, I'm happy, and I'll tip accordingly on the basis of the service I receive. If I don't, I'll withhold the tip, and explain precisely why I'm doing so.


 
We'll have to agree to disagree then.  I've had great food and good service in places that are complete dives.  I've had average food and crap service in places that were wonderfully decorated.  I tip based on the service, not anything else.  If there's a problem with the food, I complain and ask that it be taken back or the cost deducted from my bill.  If I have a problem with the surroundings, well I won't sit down in the first place, or I'll not return, or I'll carry on regardless.  If there is anything else bothering me, I'll take it up with the manager or the owner.



			
				ronan_d_john said:
			
		

> Lets also be perfectly clear on this (and hopefully you won't despise me any more), I will withhold a tip on the basis of service, and service alone. If I don't like paying 1.50 for a coffee, I won't have gone into the place. But if I do go in, and pay 1.50 for a coffee, I'll expect service commensurate for buying coffee at that price - i.e. a far better service than if I went somewhere and paid 0.75 for coffee. And if I get that expected service, I'll tip. No problems there.


 
Let's also be clear that I said I despise people like you, I've never met you, and you never stiffed me on a tip, so I don't really have any cause to despise you.  So your hopes have been answered.

Let's stick to the coffee example.  How would you define service commensurate with a £1.50 (€1.90) cup of coffee vs. a €1 cup of coffee?  If I get the cup to the table, bring milk and sugar and cream and one of those little biscuits or a mint, and then ask you 'will there be anything else sir'?, would that be commensurate with a €1.90 cup of coffee? But say you got a €1 cup of coffee, would it be ok if I fired the cup on the table, spilling half of it, and  when you asked for milk, told you 'in a minute'?  Would that be commensurate with a lower priced cup of coffee.

When I waited tables, every customer got pretty much the same treatment as if they'd ordered the €1.50 cup of coffee from me.  Sometimes if I was tired, I mightn't have been as chatty, and sometimes when I had energy I would be very witty and charming etc. And sometimes customers got more service than others becuase they asked for it, or required it.  Regardless of what the price of the meal was, or what the barman was like, I tried to give my best every time.  I earned pretty good tips wherever I went.  No-one ever came to me (other than that asshole I described above) and said 'the service was great, but we're not leaving you a tip because we don't like the colour of the carpet, and that spolied our experience'

I expect good service wherever I go.  I tip accordingly.

To be honest, holding service staff accountable for something that is beyone their fault is a bit like having a go at the girl/guy behind the counter in Spar because a 2 pack of toilet roll is €0.99/€1.99/€2.99 whatever.  It's not their fault.


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## Humpback (1 Sep 2005)

My attitude, different from yours, is that the more I pay for something, the better service I expect. Again, we'll have to agree to disagree on outlooks here.

With regards to the cup of coffee situation, though it's a little trivial, lets look into it.

If you went to the proprieter of the €1.90 cup of coffee and asked, how come your price is higher than the €1 cup of coffee down the street, what would be one of the first thing he'd say?

This isn't conjecture, it's stated by many representatives of the food and drinks industry in this country. They'll tell you that it's staff costs that's pushing up the price.

In that case, if the staff cost is 90c, or whatever % higher, because staff are getting paid more, then I'd expect a commensurate improvement in service in one place over the other.


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## Seagull (1 Sep 2005)

I would agree that I expect better service in a higher priced restaurant. When I'm paying cheap and cheerful prices, I don't expect silver service. When I'm paying top prices, I expect top service, and I also expect to pay for it. I tend to tip as a percentage of the bill, rather than a set amount. For average service, I normally leave 10%. For good service it will normally be about 15%, and it can be higher when I feel the waiting staff have been really good.


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## ClubMan (1 Sep 2005)

But if you got top notch service in a budget place and tipped 15% but got average service in a fancy place and tipped 10% then the staff in the latter place will still get more. Seems unfair.


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## Seagull (1 Sep 2005)

I know. I use that as a rule of thumb, rather than adhering to it strictly. Also, my expactations are higher in a fancy place, so the service has to be better to be good. Given exactly the same service in the two, I might consider that I'd got really good service in the cheaper place, while I would only rate it average in the fancy place. I hope that makes sense.


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## Humpback (1 Sep 2005)

Seagull said:
			
		

> I know. I use that as a rule of thumb, rather than adhering to it strictly. Also, my expactations are higher in a fancy place, so the service has to be better to be good. Given exactly the same service in the two, I might consider that I'd got really good service in the cheaper place, while I would only rate it average in the fancy place. I hope that makes sense.


 
Yes. If you receive "greasy spoon" service in a top notch restaurant, you'll complain, and hold back a tip. If you receive it in a greasy spoon, you'll probably tip (I will anyway). 

If you get top notch restaurant service in a greasy spoon, you'll tip generously, and you'll tell all your friends.


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## CCOVICH (1 Sep 2005)

ronan_d_john said:
			
		

> My attitude, different from yours, is that the more I pay for something, the better service I expect. Again, we'll have to agree to disagree on outlooks here.



No, our attitudes are actually the same on service.  If I get crappy service, I tip accordingly.  But I guess it (the differences we have)  depends on how the actual price of the meal is calculated.  In a 'high price' restaurant, there may be many things other than the cost of service that are causing the higher prices (better food, better presentation, more varied menu, higher rents, higher fit out costs, more tables=more staff, higher rates? etc.), the restauranter may not necessarily be paying his staff any more (I'm not disagreeing that many restauranters will say that staff costs are a high % of turnover, but all restaurants are obligated to pay minmium wage, and there is no guarantee that staff in higher priced restaurants receive higher wages on an individual basis).  

If I get crappy food, I refuse to pay for it.  This hits the restauranter  rather than the waiter (who is responsible for the service, not the food).  If staff are rude, obviously no tip, and I would take it up with the owner/manager with a view of getting the cost of the meal looked at.

Tipping is for good (or adequate I guess) service.  Rest assured that I don't tip for the sake of it. 

And like I said, I don't really distinguish between service in different restaurants (whether 'greasy spoon' or otherwise), other than maybe better trained staff in higher priced restaurants, but I don't place a premium on this.  I value attentive, efficient and reasonably friendly staff, wherever I go, regardless of surroundings (greasy or otherwise).


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## bond-007 (2 Sep 2005)

In the USA waiters are taxed on their estimated tips which are a % of the food they sell. They are taxed if they get a tip or not. If people don't tip they are costing them money and would be better off not serving them.


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## daltonr (2 Sep 2005)

Doesn't the same Tax situation exist in Ireland?
I was under the impression that it was done on an estimate in the same way?

-Rd


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## CCOVICH (2 Sep 2005)

daltonr said:
			
		

> Doesn't the same Tax situation exist in Ireland?
> I was under the impression that it was done on an estimate in the same way?
> 
> -Rd



Not in my experience, but I don't know what the current situation is.


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## RainyDay (2 Sep 2005)

daltonr said:
			
		

> Doesn't the same Tax situation exist in Ireland?
> I was under the impression that it was done on an estimate in the same way?
> 
> -Rd



From [broken link removed]



> _29. My staff get tips from customers. Some are cash from customers. Some via credit cards? How are they treated under the new arrangements? _
> Where the tips are routed through the employer, PAYE/PRSI must be applied to the amount paid (including employer PRSI). If tips are received directly from patrons, there is no obligation on the employer to operate PAYE/PRSI on the amounts received. (The employees are obliged to declare the tips received in their annual return of income). In the case of credit card tips the employer must operate PAYE/PRSI on the amounts of the tips received.


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## bond-007 (2 Sep 2005)

fat chance of employees declaring tips


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## Guest127 (2 Sep 2005)

someone in white coats should take them away if they did


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## RainyDay (2 Sep 2005)

Yeah - tax evasion is always such a side-splittingly funny topic, ain't it?    

Is there just the vaguest possibility that Revenue are aware that people employed in restaurants might be getting some tips as income and would start chasing for their fair share? Are the tax-scamming waiters going to cry foul if Revenue start chasing them in 5 years time for tax due plus interest plus penalties?


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## CCOVICH (3 Sep 2005)

Why not crack down now?  Why wait 5 years?


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## RainyDay (3 Sep 2005)

CCOVICH said:
			
		

> Why not crack down now?  Why wait 5 years?


I'd be expecting Revenue to focus their resources on where they get the most bang-per-buck, and I'd be very surprised if waiters tips were top of their list.

But the real issue is why don't the waiting staff obey the same laws as the rest of us?


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## GreatDane (3 Sep 2005)

CCOVICH said:
			
		

> ....
> I have waited tables in my time. I despised people like you, i.e. who held me responsible for something outside my control, e.g. the guy and his daughter who had my undivided attention all night, and then left me a 20p tip because a cup of coffee was £1.50. I mentioned this to my boss, He didn't care-he had got payment for the coffee, and so was happy. It didn't make me any better off.


 
Hi mate

While I can appreciate that its not directly your fault, if the coffee is expensive .. bottom line is, your working for your employer not the customers, so the employer is the one to be responsible for paying you. Any tips should be a "bonus" and not counted on as part of your weekly wage 

Glad your out of the business now, its not the most rewarding & sadly, probably goes unappreciated when one does a good job too 




Regarding the matter of cash tips being declared by waiting staff, in their annual tax retuns ... I'm sure every single person in the waiting business declare their full & due taxes, just like the rest of Ireland ..... well, "nearly" sure  



Out of interest, when people here speak of a tip in percentage terms, do they mean just the percentage of food, or food & drink ?   (I've seen both practiced, generally tend do use total bill myself but then wonder if Im giving away too much of my hard earned I must confess ..... you see, I don't get cash tips in my job, so in my mind, I have to multiply everything I hand out by 2 to get a better idea of what the tip is actually costing me )





Cheers

G>
http://www.rpoints.com/newbie


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## CCOVICH (3 Sep 2005)

Garrettod said:
			
		

> Hi mate
> 
> While I can appreciate that its not directly your fault, if the coffee is expensive .. bottom line is, your working for your employer not the customers, so the employer is the one to be responsible for paying you. Any tips should be a "bonus" and not counted on as part of your weekly wage



To be honest, I never counted on tips, and did indeed see them as a bonus.  But people who witheld my tip on the basis of something I couldn't control and told me this, I didn't appreciate.  



			
				Garrettod said:
			
		

> Glad your out of the business now, its not the most rewarding & sadly, probably goes unappreciated when one does a good job too



I didn't mind it that much actually.  I didn't have much choice at the time either, jobs weren't that easy to come by.  I have to say that I preferred working in America.  I would recommend that everyone should work in the service industry at least once in their life, I think you learn a lot.


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## GreatDane (4 Sep 2005)

Hi

Fully appreciate your comments, particularly with regards to jobs being hard to find (the early '90s rings a bell for me personally ) 

Agree also regarding the comment on people trying out working in the service industry, although in personal experience I've related it more to customer service type positions in larger organisations ... also thankless 

Regards


G>
http://www.rpoints.com/newbie


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## Marie (4 Sep 2005)

There world has turned _really_ topsy-turvey if the Revenue rules are that tips be declared by those working in the service industry.  I fully endorse CCovitch's remark that everyone should work in this way once in their lives; it is really the place to learn about unvarnished human nature - the wealthier the client the more likely they are to be difficult and tight-wad.

Remembering one such student 'stint' of 3 months working as a chambermaid in an Amsterdam hotel.  At 7.00am each morning I'd clock-in to find the trolley I'd loaded up at the end of yesterday's shift with fresh towels, linen, soaps and cleaning cloths etc. for a 'quick start' to cover the allotted number of rooms had been 'appropriated' by someone who hadn't stocked a trolley the day before and wasn't going to today either!!  At 3.00pm collapsing out of the place (often by way of physical body-search by hotel security to make sure you hadn't pocketed any guest valuables!!) to go home to an exhausted sleep.  

A guilder coin under the pillow was very gratifying. Being left a 5 guilder note was a very very big day.  The pay and conditions were risible.  It was usually airline cabin-crew members - who knew what it was like to 'serve' - left tips for us chamber-staff.  The wealthy who occupied the bigger expensive suites just left mess, mess and more mess!  The suggestion that waiting staff or serving staff should have to pay tax on tips is a sign of how mercenary the modern world has become.   However since that's the way it is, and will probably bring the 'gratuity' system to an end forcing (as DaltonR suggests) employers to pay proper wages.


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## ClubMan (4 Sep 2005)

Marie said:
			
		

> There world has turned _really_ topsy-turvey if the Revenue rules are that tips be declared by those working in the service industry.


Why? It's earned income so should be treated like income earned by any other worker.


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## Marie (4 Sep 2005)

Isn't that the point which is being made here?  'Tips' are 'gratuity'....to do with appreciation, gratitude - _additional_ to the capitalist exchange!

btw regarding the American system, I had a long conversation with a lovely waiter in a high-class Boston restaurant who told me they worked for the tips which were higher than the sort of 'retainer' the restaurant paid them and essentially they were individually self-employed.  So - there are different systems in operation in different contexts.


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## ClubMan (4 Sep 2005)

Marie said:
			
		

> Isn't that the point which is being made here?  'Tips' are 'gratuity'....to do with appreciation, gratitude - _additional_ to the capitalist exchange!


You mean that they should be assessable for gift tax rather than income tax?


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