# Can bullying "tenants" claim adverse possession on my grand uncle's 1ac garden?



## roball (13 Jul 2009)

My granduncle lives in a cottage and has a large garden to the rear (less than 1 acre in total including house). 

Approx 4 years ago a man called and asked if he could rent the garden to graze his horses unfortunately my granduncle said yes.  They paid him €30 for the year and moved in their horses since that time they've completely taken over, parking in his drive, coming and going as they please, putting up gates, making my granduncle feel uneasy in his own home. 

His house is in a state of disrepair and approx. 2 years the council approved a grant to have his house fixed however the builder who was carrying out the repairs would not start until the tenants had moved their horses out. 

The tenants concerned were contacted and they kept delaying and eventually refused to move.   Unfortunately the grant has expired so if he’s to get his house repaired he’s to apply again.

They at one stage offered to purchase the garden for a ridiculous amount of money, he said no and coincidentally a few days later his windows were broken in.  This incident was reported to the police however you can’t blame anyone if you haven’t witnessed the crime.

My granduncle sent the tenants a solicitors letter to move out however they responded saying they’d been there 14 years and they wanted compensation to move.  The solicitor told him if he could get witnesses saying they were only there 4 years he could get them out however understandably no neighbour will go as a witness as the tenants are from a large family.  

Also it costs €4,000 to take them to court and my granduncle does not have this kind of money.  He basically can’t afford to pay a solicitor or pay compensation to move them out. 

Can anyone give advise in this situation, can someone claim adverse possession on someone's garden?


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## Complainer (13 Jul 2009)

*Re: Adverse Possession*

Sorry to hear of his trouble. I'm not a legal expert, but afaik, they can't claim adverse possession if there has been a rental agreement in place. Adverse possession only occurs where the owner does NOT give permission for the squatter to be on the land/property.


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## roball (13 Jul 2009)

*Re: Adverse Possession*

Thanks a million for your reply but they are claiming that they weren't paying rent and unfortunately no written rental agreement was signed.  My granduncle is in his 70's and it was just a verbal agreement.


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## thedaras (14 Jul 2009)

*Re: Adverse Possession*



Complainer said:


> Sorry to hear of his trouble. I'm not a legal expert, but afaik, they can't claim adverse possession if there has been a rental agreement in place. Adverse possession only occurs where the owner does NOT give permission for the squatter to be on the land/property.


 
Has /had the rental agreement expired though?

Did the uncle contuinue to allow these people on the land after the expiry of rental agreement?

If he contuined to allow them to live on the land ,and did not request some rent from them,nor tried to stop them from being on the land,I understand that adverse possesion can be claimed,ie;squatters rights.


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## mathepac (14 Jul 2009)

*Re: Adverse Possession*



thedaras said:


> Has /had the rental agreement expired though?
> 
> Did the uncle contuinue to allow these people on the land after the expiry of rental agreement?...


You seem to have missed key information given by OP.


thedaras said:


> ... I understand that adverse possesion can be claimed,ie;squatters rights.


Based on  information given by OP your understanding seems incorrect.


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## j26 (14 Jul 2009)

*Re: Adverse Possession*

1. They were there on permission because of the rental agreement - that's not *adverse* possession
2. They used it for grazing horses - it's established law that this is insufficient use to amount to adverse possession


So no, based on the facts as you've presented, they cannot claim adverse possession even if they were there 14 years.


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## Vanilla (14 Jul 2009)

*Re: Adverse Possession*

The law will not help someone like your granduncle because he does not have the money to take a case against these people.

The council/gardai/councillors also cannot help as they will say it is a 'civil' matter.

The only way to deal with this is to stand up to the bullies. Is there a large visible number of male relations who can take it upon themselves to maintain a visible presence at his house? If so, then I would send these people a warning letter giving them X amount of days to remove the animals. If they do not then remove them yourselves and bring them safely somewhere else- to the 'tenants' property. 

Then remove all gates/fences, break down the ditches if necessary, so that they cannot keep animals there safely. Continue to maintain a visible presence, get him a guard dog if necessary. Install cameras and sensor lights. If they try to put up a fence, take it down immediately.

Unless you and your family are going to help him in this there is no point in even starting.


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## thedaras (14 Jul 2009)

*Re: Adverse Possession*



mathepac said:


> You seem to have missed key information given by OP.
> Based on information given by OP your understanding seems incorrect.


 
*OP






			Thanks a million for your reply but they are claiming that they weren't paying rent and unfortunately no written rental agreement was signed. My granduncle is in his 70's and it was just a verbal agreement
		
Click to expand...

. *

What part are you suggesting I missed?

Not worth the paper its NOT written on comes to mind..


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## jhegarty (14 Jul 2009)

*Re: Adverse Possession*

Adverse possession takes 12 years in Ireland , so no matter what the other facts they can't claim that.

What would be legal position here if he release the animals himself ?

I presume one can remove unwanted animals from your land , and the people involved claim they don't have a lease or any right to be on the land.


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## roball (14 Jul 2009)

*Re: Adverse Possession*

Thank you for your replies, they are saying they are in his land 14 years whereas in fact they're only there 4 years.  They paid rent for 2 years and after that time they were told to leave.  So it's basically there word against my granduncles.  

It seems from the replies above he only has 2 options 1. stand up to them (unfortuntely wouldn't even attempt to do that) or 2. take them to court (he doesn't have the money).


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## roball (14 Jul 2009)

*Re: Adverse Possession*

What does grazing rights entail how does it differ to adverse possession in this case.


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## mathepac (14 Jul 2009)

*Re: Adverse Possession*



jhegarty said:


> ... What would be legal position here if he release the animals himself ?...


If he releases the animals onto the road, he may be liable for damage to or caused by them, unfortunately.


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## Vanilla (14 Jul 2009)

Only one other thing he can do- let the land to someone tougher than present occupants. Give it to someone else at a knockdown price- for nothing if necessary ( but make sure to get a caretakers or letting agreement drawn up) on condition they get the others out.

As for grazing- while j26 is right, if these guys are willing to lie about the time they are in there, they will more than likely also be willing to lie about what they have used it for...


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## roball (14 Jul 2009)

*Re: Adverse Possession*

Another point I forgot to mention, they've also sectioned off part of his garden for cutting wood etc, is there a legal reason why they've done this i.e. be able to claim adverse poccession instead of grazing rights.


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## csirl (14 Jul 2009)

> Thank you for your replies, they are saying they are in his land 14 years whereas in fact they're only there 4 years. They paid rent for 2 years and after that time they were told to leave. So it's basically there word against my granduncles.


 
A person claiming adverse possession has to prove it beyond doubt - the onus of proof is on the tenants not your granduncle. It's impossible to prove something that didnt happen.

Horse etc. are regarded as property. What way would e.g. a multistory carpark, storage company etc. deal with property that has been left on their premises beyond the agreed time and/or hasnt been paid for? I assume your granduncle can deal with the horses the same way?


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## billythefish (14 Jul 2009)

Have you considered going to the press with this? I think there would be a fair outcry from the public given that an elderly man is being bullied on his own property.

I'll bet in the US, your granduncle would have the right to shoot them... We're too bloody soft on bullies here...


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## McCrack (14 Jul 2009)

Firstly Adverse Possession is not a runner here.

Secondly there are grounds to make a criminal complaint to the Gardai (which wont cost your Uncle any money) to have these people removed.

The most practical piece of legislation available to your uncle without having to go to the civil court route vis a vis seeking an injunction and thereafter seeking to enforce it is:

Part 2 (A) Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act 1994 ans inserted by Section 24 Housing (Miscellaneous) Provisions Act 2002

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2002/en/act/pub/0009/sec0024.html#partiii-sec24

Read through the legislation (the important bits are 19C onwards), I would strongly advise going to a solicitor and having him/her advise you and your uncle on presenting the complaint to the Garda. The Gardai sometimes try to say it's a civil matter and there is nothing they can do, dont be tricked into this. They can act and are statutory bound to once a complaint is made as per this legislation.

In addition the Prohibition of Forcibile Entry and Occupation Act 1971 (Criminal law) is also applicable and something the Gardai can consider too but the Law above is more practical in this context.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1971/en/act/pub/0025/index.html


Good luck.


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## roball (14 Jul 2009)

Thanks McCrack for your information, I read through the acts and it refers to entry without the owners consent.  In my granduncles situation they had his consent as he agreed to initially rent the land to them.  Would this exclude my granduncle from this act as he initially gave them entry eventhough he now wants them out.


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## McCrack (14 Jul 2009)

No there's no difficulty in that respect because this arrangement was an ad hoc one with no tenancy express or implied (as far as I can tell).

Your uncle expressly through his solicitor revoked these people's permission to occupy his land so they are on notice from that point that they are trespassing.

Therefore there is no misunderstanding as to rights.

I can't emphasis this enough but be sure your uncle is professionally represented by a solicitor when contacting the local Garda to make an official complaint. I've come across this type of situation in a professional capacity before (regarding travellers) occupying land. The Gardai I've found to be unaware of the legislation I quoted and as a result you may find them saying they are powerless when in fact they are not.


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## PaddyBloggit (14 Jul 2009)

He wants them out. Get him to the Garda Station to make a complaint.

For God's sake they've even invaded his garden!

They are down and out right bullies and are scamming him.

Get him to the station first thing tomorrow.

And the nest call after that ... the solicitor!


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## roball (14 Jul 2009)

Thanks a million I will get him straight down to a solicitor and get it sorted once and for all.


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## Bluebells (15 Jul 2009)

Whatever course of action you pursue, your uncle will suffer. So, before you do anything, make provisions to protect him - he needs an alarm in his house and a personal alarm.Going on local radio is not a bad idea - these people need to know that the finger of suspicion will point at them if anything should happen to your uncle.


Take down the gates and the fences they put up, let out the horses. 
Spray the whole place with Roundup and let _them _ take your uncle to court. I'll bet they won't.


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## mathepac (15 Jul 2009)

Bluebells said:


> ... Going on local radio is not a bad idea ...


Not a great idea if going on the radio precedes legal action.


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## Thedoc (15 Jul 2009)

I would agree with Bluebells post. Your uncle will suffer. We had a similar situation many years ago (neighbour squatting on an outfarm a mile away) and it became a war of attrition, with us removing his cattle only to have the fences cut an hour later and put back again.  You do have to stand up to them or else they'll walk all over you. It can drain you both physically and mentally. 

Remove the horses, preferably take them in a trailer a 100 miles away and let them go. He'll have a job finding them. Plough up the field (or burn it off as Bluebells suggests) There isn't much feeding value in bare soil. 

Do they have a water supply there in the field? a stream? If it's a water trough, then cut off the water supply.

Put up a sign saying " Poison Laid, Stay out!" They'll think twice about running the risk of getting their horses poisoned. 

Close off any entrances with large mass concrete bollards like those the Co Councils have been using lately. 

If he was in my part of the country, the horses would either disappear one night and else be shot

hope this helps


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## lightswitch (15 Jul 2009)

I would be amazed if the Guards would not help............have you contacted them??  If you have what was their response?  I really do feel for you, what a horrible situation.  LS.


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## Ghodadaba (15 Jul 2009)

*Re: Adverse Possession*



roball said:


> Thank you for your replies, they are saying they are in his land 14 years whereas in fact they're only there 4 years. They paid rent for 2 years and after that time they were told to leave. So it's basically there word against my granduncles.
> 
> It seems from the replies above he only has 2 options 1. stand up to them (unfortuntely wouldn't even attempt to do that) or 2. take them to court (he doesn't have the money).


 
I know it is a difficult situation, but I think you are being a bit defeatist here. If your grand uncle is frail, broke and elderly, then it is up to you, his family, to stand up to them for him. Break down their fences, release the horses, plough up the garden, put up your own fence and gate. Show up at your grand uncle's property and confront them yourself. Bring friends with you if you have to.

The squatters have no legal right to the land, they are just intimidating your grand uncle (and you too by the sounds of it). They haven't a legal leg to stand on, their stance is just based on fear. But make sure you report the matter to the Gardai anyway.

You need to show a little more backbone on your grand uncle's behalf, in my opinion.


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## roball (15 Jul 2009)

*Re: Adverse Possession*

Thanks for your advice, we'll be going to the solicitor to get him to present a complaint to the gardai as McCrack suggested.  

You're right I don't have any backbone but from what I know and hear of these people, it wouldn't be the wisest thing for both my family and my granduncle to embark on a battle with them, I think it would make the situation worse.

I will keep you updated on the outcome.


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## Thedoc (15 Jul 2009)

Roball,
Good luck with the legal route and we'll await news of a satisfactory outcome.


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## lazing (15 Jul 2009)

I am certain some enterprising former garda out there could help.  Have a look for security services or chat to some gardai about former colleagues.


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## legend (16 Jul 2009)

sorry to hear about your troubles,

listen the law means f** all here, stand up to them, as a previous poster has said, it's your property or family property after all, 

If you need numbers ask cousins,friends, work colleagues, i'm sure they'd all be disgusted, do you know any gardai or friends that mihgt know a garda that could have a private word....

I hate this kind of thing......if all comes to all.. i'm sure i could come up with a few... its the only kind of language these people know...


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## roball (16 Jul 2009)

Thanks legend I might be back to you.


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## Complainer (17 Jul 2009)

legend said:


> If you need numbers ask cousins,friends, work colleagues, i'm sure they'd all be disgusted, do you know any gardai or friends that mihgt know a garda that could have a private word....


The days of off-duty Gardai getting involved in disputes like this are thankfully in the past. They know it will come back to haunt them http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0225/garda.html?rss


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## AlbacoreA (17 Jul 2009)

Complainer said:


> The days of off-duty Gardai getting involved in disputes like this are thankfully in the past. They know it will come back to haunt them http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0225/garda.html?rss


 
From that article it doesn't say they were off duty. If you know that to be the case, why not post a more accurate link.


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## Complainer (17 Jul 2009)

AlbacoreA said:


> From that article it doesn't say they were off duty. If you know that to be the case, why not post a more accurate link.


You've missed the point.


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## legend (17 Jul 2009)

Complainer said:


> The days of off-duty Gardai getting involved in disputes like this are thankfully in the past. They know it will come back to haunt them http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0225/garda.html?rss


 

Why ? just because you've read a paragraph form the RTE website !!!

I have thankfully needed their assistance in the past and very grateful to the boys in blue !!


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## Complainer (17 Jul 2009)

legend said:


> Why ? just because you've read a paragraph form the RTE website !!!
> 
> I have thankfully needed their assistance in the past and very grateful to the boys in blue !!


So what happens when the Garda has 'a quiet word' and finds himself on wrong end of a complaint to the Garda Ombudsman about Garda interference in a non-Garda matter?


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## jhegarty (17 Jul 2009)

Complainer said:


> So what happens when the Garda has 'a quiet word' and finds himself on wrong end of a complaint to the Garda Ombudsman about Garda interference in a non-Garda matter?



There is a difference between a quite word , and bashing someone's head in.


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## EireAlba (17 Jul 2009)

One suggestion that might be practical is to install a CCTV camera or cameras to overlook the field. He could conceal these pretty well or put protection around them so that the invaders can't throw stones up and smash them. This would give him video evidence of their activity to go to the Guards with and then make a formal complaint. It would also give him footage to go to the media with, if necessary. You say that they broke his windows once when he asked them to leave the first time. If they ever tried that again, the CCTV footage would be there and he'd have an open and shut case for vandalism and harassment. 

At the very least, he could get the Guards out to call on them and 'make enquiries' e.g. are the horses legally owned, are their cars all registered and taxed, who are they, any criminal convictions etc. Make them feel uncomfortable.

I appreciate he's elderly / frail so probably doesn't want trouble but the Guards are the right people to approach as it's their job to protect law-abiding, quiet citizens like your granduncle who can't protect themselves. It sounds like this 'family' or clan are well able to look after themselves and probably familiar to the Gardai already so put the wind up them with some CCTV footage and nosy Guards poking around and they'll soon be gone, I'd bet.


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## Complainer (17 Jul 2009)

jhegarty said:


> There is a difference between a quite word , and bashing someone's head in.


The clear implication in this case was that 'gentle persuasion' from anyone was not going to be effective, and threats would be required. But even it it was a 'quiet word', do we really want Gardai getting involved in civil matters like this?

The OP is clearly in a very difficult situation, but I don't see a solution available from Gardai and quiet words.


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## AlbacoreA (17 Jul 2009)

Complainer said:


> You've missed the point.


 
Indeed the link seems to have no relevence at all.


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## AlbacoreA (17 Jul 2009)

If "persuasion" was an option available to the OP I don't think they'd be posting here. I think think they are looking for other options.

That said I don't think there are any options here. They are bullying the're way into to steal the land, and eventually the house and the rest of the property. 

Theres no avoiding a battle, legal or force of will of some sort to dislodge them. 

I wonder what would make the land unattractive to them? I dunno.


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## KatieC (17 Jul 2009)

I'd like to suggest a wild idea that may help.

How about organising a female (less likely to get thumped) with a disposable camera (less expensive than a dslr to replace) to take loads of photos of the unwanted visitors, their horses, cars, number plates, etc. 

If landowners permission has been given and its in public then no-one can complain but documenting someone who is doing something shifty often focuses their mind and they might have a re-think.


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## AlbacoreA (17 Jul 2009)

I don't think people like this have any reservations like that.


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## csirl (17 Jul 2009)

Get the horses taken away by an animal pound - say they were abandoned. 

Any vehicles left - report to local council as abandoned.

Anything else left on property - report as illegal dumping and get removed.

Refuse to talk to the bullies - just continue the above every time it happens and it will soon be too much hastle for them to leave anything on the property.

Should also think about ways of either securing or sterlising the property so that it can no longer be accessed or used by the bullies. I assume your relative is too old to drive, so one option is to completely block off all vehicular access - not by a gate - by something more permanent. I'd also remove all internal fences within the property so that nothing can be sectioned off and get all the grass vegitation completely removed with one of those sprays - dont know what called, but you sometimes see people completely de-vegitating their gardens before landscaping etc. Also cut off the water supply to the garden.

No access, no grass or water - not much use for horses.


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## sparkeee (17 Jul 2009)

lock the gate its your land if they break the lock,lock it again and warn them about cctv,inform the gards,keep locking it,each time they enter they trespass keep informing the gards about the trespass,eventually a history will form which a solicitor will be able to work with.


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## Romulan (17 Jul 2009)

Go down to the station to report in person each time and insist on a Pulse number.

Get the name of the Superintendent in charge.

You need to make their leaving the lesser of 2 evils.........


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## roball (17 Jul 2009)

I've contacted the solicitor's office about making a formal complaint to the gardai, he's to come back to me on Monday (was out of office until then).  Can't wait to see what he's to say.  

I am in fighting spirit and these people will be removed, thanks to everyone for the advice and most of all getting me fired up.  My granduncle is now staying at a friends house too nervous in his own home, they actually had the cheek to put a lock on his gate so he now can't even park into his own drive.

I am furious, I am going to try the legal route first but one way or another I will get them out, it is now my sole mission.  It will be legal route then I'll also be contacting the health board, councillors, gardai and press if all else fails.  

What kind of country is it, to let this crap happen, we've already been to the gardai and they said contact a solicitor, it's my granduncle's property pure and simple, there should be no questions asked, just f**k them out.


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## Bluebells (18 Jul 2009)

roball said:


> I've contacted the solicitor's office about making a formal complaint to the gardai, he's to come back to me on Monday (was out of office until then).  Can't wait to see what he's to say.
> 
> I am in fighting spirit and these people will be removed, thanks to everyone for the advice and most of all getting me fired up.  My granduncle is now staying at a friends house too nervous in his own home, they actually had the cheek to put a lock on his gate so he now can't even park into his own drive.
> 
> ...



I'm so glad to know your Granduncle is away from the house.
Make sure his house is insured for fire, theft, malicious damage etc.

Get that cctv asap, and don't put it on the house - who knows how that house might catch fire, especially if it is empty. 
Put up a dummy camera as well,  where it is visible, to let them know that you mean business. 

Do what csirl said, and they may realise that they are no longer dealing with an elderly man on his own. Get the ISPCA out as well. 

While the Gardai might say this is a civil matter, if trespass, intimidation, threats ( to seize/steal his land ), and forcing a man to move out of his own home, is not a crime, then it would appear that we live in a very primitive  society.

What sort of neighbours has he got, who said that they won't contradict  the squatter's claim that they are there fourteen years?  Every one in the area should be helping this man. 

I wish you success. This is not just about an acre of ground now. It is about restoring a quality of life to your Granduncle.


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## Larkenn (18 Jul 2009)

I would suggest someone moves into your Granduncles house if it is vacant.  An empty house like this is just too much of an invitation to the likes of these people.  You might find that they have moved into the house and now you are trying to remove them from the house as well as the land.  They could lie and say they have been lodging with him for years and this could make things awkward.


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## Thedoc (18 Jul 2009)

Would agree with Larkenn not to leave the house unocccupied. It's just inviting further trouble and hassle down the line. If these people should happen to squat in the house, you will have an even more difficult job to get rid of them. They'll no doubt be delighted to see your grand-uncle moving out. I'm glad to hear you're fired up now to stand up to them and to sort this out. Good on you.


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