# Is a teacher actually qualified & registered to teach mathematics?



## Lak (20 Sep 2010)

Probably not the right place to post this but non the less I was wondering if anyone could advise?

Is there a way in which I could officially clarify or not, if a certain maths teacher is actually qualified and registered to teach that subject?

We and other parents are having a great deal of trouble with a particular teacher and her ability, methods, and even state of mind in relation to her teaching. 

Without going into detail on the many incidents and many visits to the principal from various parents this former recourse teacher is now teaching maths. We have asked the principal if indeed she is qualified to teach maths but were met with a brick wall and a rather melodramatic show of effrontery at such a question and a forceful request to not take the matter further without actually confirming the teacher in question is indeed qualified, (surely the easier option).

For the record I am not the type of parent who sides with his child at every little indiscretion, I am a firm believer that the teacher as the responsible guardian during the day is "right" and would have my full support in any actions taken first and foremost, but we have here a situation that is becoming ridiculous and needs to be resolved.

Is there an official channel I can avail of to address my concerns, without being seen as acting in an  underhand manner.

Thank you in advance

Legs


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## Sunny (20 Sep 2010)

Can you approach the Board of Management if you are not happy with the Principals response on the matter?


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## VOR (20 Sep 2010)

The chances are that if she is under 35 years of age she does not have a maths qualification. If she is over 35 then there's a one in 3 chance she is not qualified.

[broken link removed]



> “This highlights a significant divide in post-primary schools between  students who are taught by qualified mathematics teachers and those who  are
> taught by out-of-field teachers of mathematics, with younger  and weaker students most often taught by out-of-field teachers," said Dr  Hannigan.


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## Shawady (20 Sep 2010)

legs-akimbo said:


> Is there a way in which I could officially clarify or not, if a certain maths teacher is actually qualified and registered to teach that subject.
> recourse teacher is now teaching maths.
> Thankyou in advance


 
I read in the paper around the time of the Leaving Cert results, that half of all maths teachers have no qualifications in maths itself.
It struck me as odd, as the debate about poor maths and science results made me wonder was there a deficiency on the teaching side of things.


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## csirl (20 Sep 2010)

You can check whether or not the individual is a qualified teacher by inputting his/her name on the teaching councils register page. Doesnt say what subjects a teacher can teach (but the Teaching Council does record this information itself), but at least you'll find out if the person is a real teacher. You'd be surprised at how many people who are not teachers are teaching in Irish schools.


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## DrMoriarty (20 Sep 2010)

Just to clarify, that link in fact indicates whether a person is registered with the Teaching Council, not whether (s)he is a qualified teacher.

I'd suggest that the OP request this information in writing from the school Principal in the first instance, and in very neutral, factual terms. What qualification, what year, what institution.

The Principal would be foolish to ignore such a request, and a refusal would in itself provide grounds for a complaint to the Teaching Council.


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## csirl (20 Sep 2010)

DrMoriarty said:


> Just to clarify, that link in fact indicates whether a person is registered with the Teaching Council, not whether (s)he is a qualified teacher.
> 
> I'd suggest that the OP request this information in writing from the school Principal in the first instance, and in very neutral, factual terms. What qualification, what year, what institution.
> 
> The Principal would be foolish to ignore such a request, and a refusal would in itself provide grounds for a complaint to the Teaching Council.


 
I agree with your advice - parents should officially ask the school.

However, registration with Teaching Council is mandatory for all teachers. Not being on the register means they are unqualified teachers. If they are not on the register, then you know with 100% certainty that they are not qualified to teach and so dont need to progress to next stage i.e. asking school.

If they are registered, it may be that they are qualified teachers, but not necessarily qualified to teach maths - you'll need to get this info from the school.


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## Complainer (20 Sep 2010)

csirl said:


> I agree with your advice - parents should officially ask the school.
> 
> However, registration with Teaching Council is mandatory for all teachers. Not being on the register means they are unqualified teachers. If they are not on the register, then you know with 100% certainty that they are not qualified to teach and so dont need to progress to next stage i.e. asking school.


It is hard to search, given that I don't know the first names of many of the teachers. The principal of our boy's school is in the register, but not listed with the school (or any school). I can't find the principal of the girl's school, or several of the girls school teachers (matching by surname and school name).

Is the school name details reliable?


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## csirl (20 Sep 2010)

Complainer said:


> It is hard to search, given that I don't know the first names of many of the teachers. The principal of our boy's school is in the register, but not listed with the school (or any school). I can't find the principal of the girl's school, or several of the girls school teachers (matching by surname and school name).
> 
> Is the school name details reliable?


 
The best source of first names is ratemyteachers.ie

Not a reliable source, but usually correct.


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## Protocol (20 Sep 2010)

It depends what you mean by "qualifies".

In the past, you did Arts + H.Dip. Plenty of teachers did not study during their Arts degree the subjects that they subsequently taught.

Example: I know of a teacher who did the common combination of Eng plus Hist in Arts.  Then the H.Dip.

They began teaching several subjects, e.g. hist, geog, etc., but ended up teaching just maths.

Are they a "qualified" maths teacher?  I don't know.

But I do know they have 30 yrs+ experience, and thousands of pupils will attest to the quality.


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## csirl (20 Sep 2010)

Agree with Protocol.

In my opinion, the Teaching Council should list all the registered teachers on a school by school basis rather than having people do a name search where they may not know the full name of the teacher. They should also list the subjects that each teacher is qualified to teach. My wife is a teacher and the TC does hold this information and it is already on their database - it's only available to individual members via online password.


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## Complainer (20 Sep 2010)

csirl said:


> My wife is a teacher and the TC does hold this information and it is already on their database - it's only available to individual members via online password.


Presumably, it would be available under an FOI request.


csirl said:


> The best source of first names is ratemyteachers.ie
> 
> Not a reliable source, but usually correct.



Thanks for the tip, but it is not so good for primary teachers.


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## Mrs Vimes (20 Sep 2010)

Complainer said:


> It is hard to search, given that I don't know the first names of many of the teachers. The principal of our boy's school is in the register, but not listed with the school (or any school). I can't find the principal of the girl's school, or several of the girls school teachers (matching by surname and school name).
> 
> Is the school name details reliable?



Have you tried their names as gaeilge? Teachers seem to use irish names quite a lot. Also, is the spelling correct and does she perhaps use maiden/married name?
Sybil


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## Lak (20 Sep 2010)

DrMoriarty said:


> Just to clarify, that link in fact indicates whether a person is registered with the Teaching Council, not whether (s)he is a qualified teacher.
> 
> I'd suggest that the OP request this information in writing from the school Principal in the first instance, and in very neutral, factual terms. What qualification, what year, what institution.
> 
> The Principal would be foolish to ignore such a request, and a refusal would in itself provide grounds for a complaint to the Teaching Council.


 
I contacted the teaching council who advised me to put the request in writing to the school principal, which I did last June. The principal was shocked at my request & the Chairman of the board was insulted at my request and asked me to retract it, which I refused to do. The teacher in question is now teaching my daughter again (this is her Junior cert year) & there seems to be a relunctance to provide me with this information. I am considering contacting the teaching council again, if I do will my request be dealt with in confidence or will they contact the school to notify them of my request. I dont want to make school life difficult for my daughter.


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## ajapale (20 Sep 2010)

This well behaved thread has been moved from  Letting Off Steam to  Miscellaneous Non-financial Questions.

aj
moderator


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## fizzelina (21 Sep 2010)

Can't you ask the teacher at the next parent teacher meeting what university he/she went to and degree he/she did? I'm a professional and if someone asked me my qualification I would have no problem at all in telling them. My sister is a teacher and she also would have no hesitation telling someone. Of course you would have to ask it in the correct manner/tone of voice (inquisitive nosiness more so than doubting their ability even if you do doubt it) but the option is there to ask.


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## Lak (21 Sep 2010)

The teacher in question was apoplectic when informed a request had been made as to her credentials. But absolutely no one is prepared to take the easy option and present us with the requested information, their line seems to be insulted outrage and that we have an affront to dare question their authority and therefore will not even dignify said request with a reply, indeed we have been strongly advised by the B.O.M. to retract the request.

Now she may well be fully qualified to teach maths, I simply am not convinced she is, I would not give a fig if she were only qualified to teach metal work so long as her prowess in the classroom was of an acceptable standard, it is very far from it, I could go into detail about the bizarre and outrageous carry ons but do not intend to blacken anyone's name with a one sided argument and will simply deal with the important facts.

As I have mentioned, this teacher has been for many years a resource teacher in an "upstairs" capacity, she has only one single class in mathematics which commenced last year, so the plethora of complaints are therefore from only one single solitary class, but the principal has dug in her heels and refuses point blank to acknowledge or address the situation.

Many thanks to all who have contributed to this thread, I aim to get to the bottom of this. 

If it transpires the teacher is indeed qualified to teach my daughter maths then we will humbly accept the situation and have to work around the problem as best we can for all concerned, this is not a vendetta we will always support the teachers, for us their authority holds presidence.

A poor teacher I can accept, a poor teacher that has no right to be teaching a critical subject I can not.


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## DrMoriarty (21 Sep 2010)

legs-akimbo said:


> Fizzelina the teacher in question was apopleptic when informed a request had been made as to her credentials. But absolutely no one is prepared to take the easy option and present us with the requested information, their line seems to be insulted outrage and that we have an affront to dare question their authority and therefor will not even dignify said request with a reply, indeed we have been strongly advised by the B.O.M. to retract the request.


Again, I would urge you to deal with this in writing. It sounds very much like verbal approaches will yield nothing, and you cannot take this further without firmer evidence than hearsay. Write again explaining that you cannot accede to the request made by the Chairman of the BoM that you retract your legitimate request for information (assuming that's all that you put in your letter?), and request acknowledgement in turn of this letter.

Do _not_ criticise the teacher or the principal, you'll simply give them ammunition. By all means refer to the principal's failure to respond satisfactorily to your request, but don't suggest collusion or impropriety of any kind. And don't venture your opinion of the teacher, however valid. Keep it factual and to the point. If you can get other parents to sign the letter, so much the better, but it's not essential. They will see that you mean business and will have to respond, but you must stay calm and reasonable and not give them any chance to brand you as a 'troublemaker'.

Good luck.


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## Lak (21 Sep 2010)

> Do _not_ criticise the teacher or the principal, you'll simply give them ammunition. By all means refer to the principal's failure to respond satisfactorily to your request, but don't suggest collusion or impropriety of any kind. And don't venture your opinion of the teacher, however valid. Keep it factual and to the point. If you can get other parents to sign the letter, so much the better, but it's not essential. They will see that you mean business and will have to respond, but you must stay calm and reasonable and not give them any chance to brand you as a 'troublemaker'.
> 
> Good luck.


 
Absolutely ! We would not consider making any personal comments, there are always two sides to an argument and airing any personal grievances will always be detrimental and be perceived as petty in my opinion.
Dealing with cold hard facts and not opinions is the only way and accepting the outcome in a dignified manner will enable a positive reflection of a way forward....from both sides.


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## Betsygirl (21 Sep 2010)

I actually went through a very similar situation when I was in school with a teacher that was teaching me both maths and irish. To say she was terrible was putting it mildly. In the end, we found out that she was a qualified maths teacher but was teaching irish as well as she grew up in an irish speaking area. My parents and many others approached the BOM and principal as you have done to no avail, the teacher was a permanent employee for many years and they had to defend her. In the end, we started refusing to attend her class and with enough lobbying by our parents, we were assigned a new teacher. It wasn't the best conclusion as the teacher was just moved to another class but it was the only solution we could get.
I don't envy your position, the school and BOM are always going to back their teachers so I don't think you're going to win but best of luck anyway!


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## greenfield (21 Sep 2010)

As an aside, Engineers Ireland is offering free LC maths grinds - 
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/...ers-free-maths-grinds-to-students-474021.html
Last year they webcast them live


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## Firefly (21 Sep 2010)

greenfield said:


> As an aside, Engineers Ireland is offering free LC maths grinds -
> 
> Last year they webcast them live


 
Fair play to them, that's fantastic. It's initiatives like that we need to bring this country on.


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## Deas (21 Sep 2010)

Would it be worth talking to a local TD?  They could raise it with the Minister for Education on your behalf and then the school would have to respond I suspect.


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## Sunny (21 Sep 2010)

Deas said:


> Would it be worth talking to a local TD? They could raise it with the Minister for Education on your behalf and then the school would have to respond I suspect.


 
I wouldn't go that far yet. If there are other concerned parents, I would organise a meeting and make it clear to the school principle and the BOM that this is a serious issue that many parents are taking very seriously. You are perfectly entitled to know the qualifications of who is teaching your child. If you don't get any joy from that, I would contact the Department of Education directly. As someone said, put everything in writing and ask for the repsonses of the school to be put in writing as well.


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## Lak (21 Sep 2010)

we are paying for our daughter to go to grinds also, if we didn't there is now way she would have the syallabas covered. I have told the principal & class teacher that she is attending grinds along with 19 out of 30 pupils in the class, the reply I got was, that is our choice. I have put my request in writing, trying to keep a paper trail but they wont respond in writing, they just keep calling me into the school to discuss the matter, but no reply in writing. A number of papents have complained about this teacher both in paper & verbally, but I am the only one who has actually brought up the teaching council & as a result the only parent asked to attend meetings with the class teacher & principal. wondering are they trying to keep me at bay ie not wanting me to contact the teaching council again.


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## MugsGame (21 Sep 2010)

csirl said:


> However, registration with Teaching Council is mandatory for all teachers.



There may be a technical requirement to register but there is no practical enforcement of this, especially for those already in a post.



> Not being on the register means they are unqualified teachers. If they are not on the register, then you know with 100% certainty that they are not qualified to teach



Many permanent teachers meet the registration criteria but most have chosen (quite sensibly IMO) not to register. Absence from the register does not tell you anything. 

IIRC a planned ministerial order will make registration mandatory before appointment to a post (in theory since September 2010), but this will only affect new contracts and does not impact all schools.


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## Seagull (21 Sep 2010)

Is it worth contacting the PTA?


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## ajapale (21 Sep 2010)

OT posts moved here: Bad Teachers, Grinds and Rocking the Boat

Keep this thread to answer the specific question:

 Is a teacher actually qualified & registered to teach mathematics?


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## Marion (21 Sep 2010)

There is, of course, the possibility that the teacher involved is also an unwitting victim.

It is possible that they may have been coerced, by the principal, into teaching a subject that they were not contracted to teach, not qualified to teach and were unhappy/unwilling or did not have the competency to teach. 

Just a thought! 


Marion


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## paddyc (22 Sep 2010)

If the principal won't respond in writing and call you back to the school then I would bring a tape recorder, place it on the table in front of them and advise them you are going to record the meeting.


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## Padraigb (22 Sep 2010)

paddyc said:


> ... you are going to record the meeting.



Why?


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## paddyc (22 Sep 2010)

Padraigb said:


> Why?


 

The OP has said she is writing to the school, but cannot get any acknowledgement in writing, they are doing everything verbally. Hence there is no record/proof of exactly what is being said. 

Recording the meeting gives a full record of exactly what went on, if the school do not agree to the recording then the OP could insist they respond in writing


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## Padraigb (22 Sep 2010)

OP has also indicated that she does not want things to escalate more than necessary. Using a tape recorder at a meeting would be seen by most people as confrontational. For a lower-key approach, pen & paper work quite well -- "do you mind if I make a note of this?"


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## TreeTiger (22 Sep 2010)

legs-akimbo said:


> Is there an official channel I can avail of to address my concerns, without being seen as acting in an  underhand manner.


There is an official complaints procedure - I think I have a copy of it stored somewhere and will see if I can find it.

As far as I recall the order is, speak to the teacher, if that doesn't work speak to the principal (or write), and then write to the Board if there has been no resolution.

I'm curious as to whether you have actually written to the Board - you mention the Chairman of the Board, but it's not clear if the rest of the Board are aware of the situation.  Having been on a school Board myself, I remember it being drummed into us that as members we had no rights to act on our own, that the Board was only the Board when we were all together.  Also, if an issue has been brought to the Board in writing, it would be expected that whatever reply would be given the same way.


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## Lak (22 Sep 2010)

The situation presently is that myself and my wife have been in contact with the teaching council. (we are both posting on this thread by the way under my name) so if I do not post correctly the details I am certain to be corrected !

My wife contacted the teaching council this afternoon, who subsequently looked up this teachers record only for us to be told that there was a database of teachers sent to them by the department of education in March 2003 which allowed these teachers to automatically be registered with the teaching council WITHOUT their qualifications having to be verified under an amnesty at that time, and the teacher in question was part of this database and availed of this amnesty. The teaching council told me that they don't have access to the information regarding subjects she can teach, this information is in the hands of the department of education & is protected information. 

They advised me to contact the department and see if they can give me the information but they doubt they will.

The only way this information can be accessed via the F.O.I. we have been informed, is with the written consent from the person on whom you require the information, ie the teacher! and thats not going to happen!

We are in limbo . We are going to contact the department tomorrow & see what merry go around they put us on!


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## fizzelina (12 Oct 2010)

any update on this? are you going to follow it to the end and find out the teacher's qualification?


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