# What's the liability on a stolen Laser card?



## LDFerguson (10 Aug 2005)

Hi, 

A family member had a Laser card stolen yesterday, which was used a few times before she even noticed it was gone and reported it.  

It wasn't a Chip and PIN card.  

Does anyone know the extent of her liability for the purchases made, as even her bank are vague and are "getting back to her".  

I presume she has no liability for any purchases made AFTER she reported the card stolen.  How about before?  My feeling is that she could argue the toss as presumably the signature used wasn't like her own (unless the thief was a good forger also.)  

Ideally, if you could point to web-links with the definitive answer too, that would be great.  

Thanks.


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## CCOVICH (10 Aug 2005)

LD, I may not be entirely correct on this, but here goes.

Did the people who used their card have her PIN number, or did they sign for the purchases?

If they used their PIN, she would have a hard time proving that they weren't negligent (i.e. that they didn't have it written down and stored with the card etc.)

I think that if it was done by forging their signature, then they should be ok (i.e. they are not liable).

Have they kept a copy of the Ts and Cs?  I would imagine that this is as about as definitive a source of information as there is.  Otherwise, get the bank to send them another copy.


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## Sue Ellen (10 Aug 2005)

Hi Liam,

Not often any of us get the opportunity to try to help you - usually the other way around.

Had a quick scoot around the web and came up with [broken link removed]

The quote 

"The 'Code of Best Practice of the European Banking Debit Payments Industry on Card-Based Payments' states that the maximum a cardholder can be held liable for transactions on a lost/stolen card that they have reported is €150. In reality, the actual amount payable by the cardholder will depend on the bank and the circumstances of the situation. If a card is lost or stolen but the cardholder does not report it, then the cardholder may be liable to pay a greater amount.The 'Code of Best Practice of the European Banking Debit Payments Industry on Card-Based Payments' states that the maximum a cardholder can be held liable for transactions on a lost/stolen card that they have reported is €150. In reality, the actual amount payable by the cardholder will depend on the bank and the circumstances of the situation. If a card is lost or stolen but the cardholder does not report it, then the cardholder may be liable to pay a greater amount".

Worst case scenario would be €150.00 but when one reads this previous AAM thread it confirms the theory that one should argue the toss with the banks as much as possible because of their vagueness with the whole issue.

A root around either of these might provide some further help http://www.lasercard.ie/ and 

Hope its sorted to her benefit because drop in the ocean to the banks.


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## LDFerguson (11 Aug 2005)

Thanks very much for the replies and links.  Very helpful.  

CCOVICH - it wasn't a Chip and PIN card so I reckon she'll be OK.  
Sue Ellen - Thanks for the info.  

Still not a pleasant experience when you're eight months pregnant, trying to keep control of your two kids (5 and 2) on a hot and sticky day and you arrive at the grocery checkout to find that your purse is gone and some little @*&%$£ has been forging your signature for goods left right and centre.  

But at least I was able to reassure her on the money side of it, thanks to your help.


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## elcato (11 Aug 2005)

Hi Liam - I would refuse to pay on any goods as the signature would not have matched. Signature not matching is at worst the retailer or banks fault. Be aware that the banks will try anything to pass the book (as you're well aware of). This actually happened to a friend of mine who didn't notice it till €1500 was 'removed' via the buying of goods and cashback and she stood firm till the banks refunded her.


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## jem (11 Aug 2005)

On a slightly different subject credit card fraud.
I go a phone call from my cc company to let me know that there seems to have been credit card fraud on my card some how they got my details and tried to put through payments 1 or 2 got through small amounts then there was an attempt at two $1 transactions which set their alarm bells working. then an attempt at a 600+ transaction.
AIB then rang me and the card has been cancelled.
I honestly cant figure out how it happened only use PAypal/ryan air/easyjet for internet payments very carefull in restaraunts etc.
I rang the safecard.ie website mentioned above and they told me that I wont be out of pocket for the money that sliped through. As the retailer has to prove that teh transactions were genuine where the card has been reported for fraud.
Dam annoying.


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## ClubMan (11 Aug 2005)

A few years ago my _PTSB VISA _card which I had never previously used at all was used for fraudulent transactions. The only explanation that I could come up (having read up on the subject in various places including here) was that the scammers had auto-generated my card number and executed transactions through a merchant who did not do thorough card details checking (e.g. they may just have checked that the card number was well formed and not checked other details). As it happened I did not end up out of pocket. This was a few years ago when less thorough checking of card details during transactions was more commonplace and I assumed that this was tightened up these days but perhaps there still is scope for scammers?


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## RainyDay (11 Aug 2005)

jem said:
			
		

> then there was an attempt at two $1 transactions which set their alarm bells working.


Many online sites put through a request for authorisation for a $1 charge as part of the validation of a credit card number.


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## franmac (12 Aug 2005)

elcato said:
			
		

> Hi Liam - I would refuse to pay on any goods as the signature would not have matched. Signature not matching is at worst the retailer or banks fault. Be aware that the banks will try anything to pass the book (as you're well aware of). This actually happened to a friend of mine who didn't notice it till €1500 was 'removed' via the buying of goods and cashback and she stood firm till the banks refunded her.


 
I have recently been watching very closely any laser/visa transactions that I had to sign for and I find that 99% of the cashiers do not compare the signature on the card with the signed receipt.


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## LDFerguson (12 Aug 2005)

I agree franmac - my credit cards haven't yet been changed over to Chip and PIN and in many retailers the cashier hands me back the card as soon as it's swiped through the machine, without even looking at it.

Maybe it's the years of practicing my "honest as the day is long" face for the clients.


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## bacchus (12 Aug 2005)

I have never signed at the back of any of my cards. This is the most ridiculous thing one can do . Why? by signing, you actually say to the potential thief "here is my card and here is how to use it. Happy shopping".

All my cards are written "Refer to ID" at the back. Downside, you always need to carry an ID with you...
In 70% of cases, the cashier never checks.
In 20% of cases, they checks my signature against the one on the back "i.e. Refer to ID" and tell me it is OK.
In 10%, they ask for my ID.

Good Stories:
1- A cashier (in BOOTS) once asked me what she should do after having read the back of my card. I answered "Ask for my ID". She never did and accepted the payment!!
2- A SPAR manager would not accept my payment, even though i produced two IDs. She finally asked the security man who could hardly speak english and could not be bothered, but he said it was OK.... So she accepted my card. 

What i can not figure out is why the PIN has not been used for the last 20 years to validate card ownership when paying in a shop. Don't we all have to punch a PIN when withdrawing cash from an ATM?
All cards (with or without chip) have a PIN which is written on the magnetic strip and on the chip (if fitted). 
Chip technology has been used in some country since the 1980's. It is being introduced in Ireland in 2005 !!


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## RainyDay (12 Aug 2005)

bacchus said:
			
		

> I have never signed at the back of any of my cards. This is the most ridiculous thing one can do . Why? by signing, you actually say to the potential thief "here is my card and here is how to use it. Happy shopping".
> 
> All my cards are written "Refer to ID" at the back. Downside, you always need to carry an ID with you...


I wonder if you're breaching the T's&C's of the card by not signing it (regardless of whether it is a good idea or not). Could this increase your liability in any way if the card is stolen? It would certainly make it easy for a family member who shares your name to rip you off if they got their hands on your card!


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## ClubMan (12 Aug 2005)

bacchus said:
			
		

> What i can not figure out is why the PIN has not been used for the last 20 years to validate card ownership when paying in a shop. Don't we all have to punch a PIN when withdrawing cash from an ATM?


Presumably because the required secure (online) infrastructure was not in place to securely and reliably authenticate the PIN as proof of identity up to now.



> All cards (with or without chip) have a PIN which is written on the magnetic strip and on the chip (if fitted).
> Chip technology has been used in some country since the 1980's. It is being introduced in Ireland in 2005 !!


_MonsieurBond _posted a good objective/skeptical link about chip and _PIN _here that's worth reading.


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## Joe1234 (12 Aug 2005)

In about 95% of the times that I have recently used my laser or visa card, where signature is required, my card has been handed back to me and in my wallet before I get the receipt to sign.  I wonder if I decided to sign Michael Mouse on the slip, who would be held liable.  Would it be the shop for not checking that the 2 signatures matched or me for not giving the correct name?  

Not that I am planning to give a false name, but I was just wondering what the scenario would be.


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## bacchus (15 Aug 2005)

RainyDay said:
			
		

> I wonder if you're breaching the T's&C's of the card by not signing it (regardless of whether it is a good idea or not). Could this increase your liability in any way if the card is stolen? It would certainly make it easy for a family member who shares your name to rip you off if they got their hands on your card!


 
Good point.. but if i loose my card signed "Refer to ID", it is more than likely that the forged signature will be miles away from the real one, deposited at the bank when i signed up for the card. 
Also, how will the bank know that the card is not "properly" signed? i have no idea what the recovery ratio is on stolen/lost cards. May be somebody know and could post the figure.
I make sure my wife does not have access to the cards...


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## lemeister (23 Aug 2005)

bacchus said:
			
		

> All my cards are written "Refer to ID" at the back.


I wonder what would happen if someone stole your card and used it to be buy goods by signing the receipt "Refer to ID"?  Signatures don't have to be your name.


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## daltonr (23 Aug 2005)

> I have never signed at the back of any of my cards. This is the most ridiculous thing one can do . Why? by signing, you actually say to the potential thief "here is my card and here is how to use it. Happy shopping".


 
Surely this is an invitation to a thief to write your name in their handwriting on the back of the card so the retailer now has no way of knowing that the signature isn't your's   it matches the thief.    Ultimately the CC company will show it doesn't match your signature, but you've prevented the retailer from catching the fraud.

I might jinx myself here but I've been using Credit Cards since 1996 and never had a problem.   I've used it on the internet, over the phone,  I do'nt always keep it in sight in restaurants.  I've used it in Ireland and abroad.   I read the statement carfully and never had a dodgy charge.

And yet I know lots of people who've been stung, some of whom are incredibly carefull.
Clubman's autogenerated number is the only explaination in many cases.    It's worth remembering if you get stung that it isn't necessarily someone who you did business with that's to blame.

-Rd


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## elcato (23 Aug 2005)

> I have recently been watching very closely any laser/visa transactions that I had to sign for and I find that 99% of the cashiers do not compare the signature on the card with the signed receipt.


Yes - And they, the retailer will be liable for not checking that the signatures dont match. It's their responsiblity to do this. 





> I have never signed at the back of any of my cards. This is the most ridiculous thing one can do . Why? by signing, you actually say to the potential thief "here is my card and here is how to use it. Happy shopping".


This would be crazy. By not signing you are saying to the thief 'if you cant match my signature just sign here and it will always match'. In this case you will be liable for any loss as has been pointed out by a later poster.


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## jem (14 Sep 2005)

i have 2 say aib were great, full refunds no hassel.
appeared on next statement.
great stuff


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## pricilla (15 Sep 2005)

lemeister said:
			
		

> Signatures don't have to be your name.


Is that so? Really? That's amazing.
You mean it could be a drawing or something? Can it be another name like "Mickael Mouse" (I love that  ) or are you only messing


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## Sarah (15 Sep 2005)

Be careful entering your pin number into the bank links. My friend used her card on Monday and this morning she recieved a notice from her bank saying that her card had been scanned at the bank link so they were sending her out a new one and cancelled her old one. Just to let you know!!


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## bacchus (15 Sep 2005)

elcato said:
			
		

> Yes - And they, the retailer will be liable for not checking that the signatures dont match. It's their responsiblity to do this.
> *This would be crazy. By not signing you are saying to the thief 'if you cant match my signature just sign here and it will always match'.* In this case you will be liable for any loss as has been pointed out by a later poster.


 
elcato,
you quoted me out of context... i wrote



			
				bacchus said:
			
		

> *I have never signed at the back of any of my cards.* This is the most ridiculous thing one can do . Why? by signing, you actually say to the potential thief "here is my card and here is how to use it. Happy shopping".
> *All my cards are written "Refer to ID" at the back*. Downside, you always need to carry an ID with you...


 
so, there is no blank space for the thief to put his "signature".


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## elcato (15 Sep 2005)

Oh fair enough. Didn't think this could be done ? But seeing as your card doesn't have your picture on it all it does is make the thief actually get a fake ID and sign it himself. I still think a signature in front of someone would be harder to forge every transaction rather than just get fake ID. Ask any of the Junior cert students do they have any fake ID and they'll have plenty of them.


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## bacchus (16 Sep 2005)

elcato said:
			
		

> Oh fair enough. Didn't think this could be done ? But seeing as your card doesn't have your picture on it all it does is make the thief actually get a fake ID and sign it himself. I still think a signature in front of someone would be harder to forge every transaction rather than just get fake ID. Ask any of the Junior cert students do they have any fake ID and they'll have plenty of them.


 
yop, but i would think that a lot of petty thiefs are opportunist and play against the clock... they will try to use the card as soon as it has been stolen and before the owner reports it to the bank, so that leave them very little time (few hours?) for forging an ID.
I think we all agree that relying on a simple signature is a very weak security system, and hopefully the PIN system will make thieves's life harder, and your card more secure....
The next step after PIN will be to have finger or eye recognition system... i am sure it will happen one day..


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## elcato (16 Sep 2005)

> they will try to use the card as soon as it has been stolen and before the owner reports it to the bank, so that leave them very little time (few hours?) for forging an ID.


Agreed and agreed.


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