# "not a single payment made in 3 years" Judge grants possession with  6 month stay



## Brendan Burgess (29 Aug 2013)

A woman on social welfare who has made no payment in three years on a house worth €700k contests the repossession. 

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crim...six-months-to-vacate-rathmines-home-1.1509842



She is living there with her partner who was described in another case as a  "sexton". 

Surely they should have been able to pay something? 

I don't know why the judge gave her a stay of 6 months.


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## Time (29 Aug 2013)

Brendan, it is standard practice to grant a stay of 6 months. Nothing unusual there.


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## Jim2007 (29 Aug 2013)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Surely they should have been able to pay something?



Well reading through the article it appears that this is anything but a simple case of repossession!  She switched PPR without telling the bank, some of mortgage money seems to have been spent on another property, there appears to be other unidentified people in addition to her family living there (rent free I doubt it), there is an other judgements on the property, she refused to accept a reasonable price for the property since it would not cover the additional judgement and she is looking for €2M in damages from the bank... does not sound like your typical borrower to me.


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## Time (29 Aug 2013)

A sexton is a grave digger.


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## Brendan Burgess (29 Aug 2013)

from dictionary.com 



> an official of a church charged with taking care of the edifice and its contents, ringing the bell, etc., and sometimes with burying the dead.



My point is that he has a job and an income. And yet the bank received nothing.


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## Delboy (30 Aug 2013)

He seems to have more strings to his bow than just helping out at the church!!!
http://www.herald.ie/news/furious-man-lashed-out-at-barrister-and-smashed-his-iphone-27965970.html

Also, from the court report yesterday:


> In 2011 the bank held back on possession proceedings when Ms White put the property up for sale but she refused an offer of €600,000 because it was inadequate to pay off the mortgages and meet a judgment against the property by Sandford Park School, Ranelagh, and a High Court judgment against it by Paul Healy.


Does this mean she is also sending her kids to a very expensive private school, while not paying the mortgage(s)!!!

Between this and the other report yesterday on the stud farm owner getting protected by the Freemen, you'd have to wonder is it worth getting out of bed every morning at 6.30, waking up the kids to send them into a 9 hour day in the creche etc etc. The working man/woman in this country is mad


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## Bronco Lane (30 Aug 2013)

There is definitely a sense of entitlement out there. No self awareness or a self of awareness that is completly biased. Me, Me Me all the way. I often wonder how these people behave when it comes to the small things like basic good manners or a consideration of others.


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## so-crates (30 Aug 2013)

Given the link that delboy has provided Bronco Lane, it doesn't look like the evictee is bedfellows with good manners or consideration of others.


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## Brendan Burgess (30 Aug 2013)

so-crates said:


> Given the link that delboy has provided Bronco Lane, it doesn't look like the evictee is bedfellows with good manners or consideration of others.



This is an odd case ok, but I wouldn't hold that court case against Mary White. After all, the judge did sum up with 



> Healy had no previous convictions and the judge accepted the incident  was out of character. He said he would leave the defendant without  convictions if he paid €250 compensation for the damage to the phone and  another €250 to charity.




Having said that, I am sure that the tabloid newspapers are checking them out.


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## Brendan Burgess (30 Aug 2013)

> In 2011 the bank held back on possession proceedings when Ms White put  the property up for sale but she refused an offer of €600,000 because it  was inadequate to pay off the mortgages and meet a judgment against the  property by Sandford Park School, Ranelagh, and a High Court judgment  against it by Paul Healy.



So her partner has a judgment against her?  Presumably he was well off enough to give her a loan, which he secured on the property. 

I doubt if her children are still going to Sandford Park.


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## Brendan Burgess (30 Aug 2013)

> She said the bank sought to repossess and sell the house where Ms  White’s four children, two of whom were dependent, lived with her  partner [broken link removed].



So she is on social welfare. 
Paul Healy is living with her and is paying nothing towards the rent or else he is paying, but she is not passing it on.
Two independent children are living there as well.

So four adults have been living rent-free for 4 years. 

This sort of case damages the cause of those who are in genuine trouble and who are trying.


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## Luternau (30 Aug 2013)

I dont think it is fair to post that link. While it was published before, its not that relevant to the repossesion hearings. (Personal opinion)

I too was wondering about the school fees-it would seem that monies were owed too (not sure if this is related to the ref to the school). However, given that the school take a stand against non payment of fees, if the judgement relates to non payment of fees, it would be safe to say the child/children no longer attend the school.

The question must be asked, as to why someone that is unemployed since 2004 would be sending children to a school that costs up to 7000 a year? And in doing so, where was the money going to come from to pay for it, the mortgage plus day to day? 

This case damages to notion that there are people out there struggling with no jobs, little or no support from the SW, with mortgages attached to modest properties in negaive equity plus other debt. They are  trying to put their kids though normal schooling, can barely get by week to week and the banks are putting them under huge pressure to pay as much as they can towards the mortgage or face re-possession proceedings. (allowing for MARS etc). In that light, the stay is just plain wrong.

However, it must also be added that this lady is not the only person that has not/never made a payment on their mortgage and received the forebearance of the courts. A certain high profile developer of some noteriety did the same and remained ensconsed in a very nice dwelling in D4 for years while making no payments at all. The bank/NAMA has now repossesed.


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## Delboy (30 Aug 2013)

There is also mention here of people living in the house of whom she does not know the names!

Is there an element of the Freemen at play here? I mean, she must know the names of people in her house but perhaps she does not 'recognise' surnames for court case purposes in the same way that the Freemen seem not to
Or perhaps there is a unit within the house that is rented out and her partner 'manages' all that?

A weird case this


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## Time (30 Aug 2013)

There are many cases of people on SW who have not paid a penny in years, yet none of these make the papers. Also I have never heard of anyone not getting at least a 6 month stay either.


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## Gerry Canning (30 Aug 2013)

All we all want is a sense of fair-play. From reading this I think this Lady has got too much fair play ?
Am I wrong?


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## Brendan Burgess (30 Aug 2013)

Time said:


> There are many cases of people on SW who have not paid a penny in years, yet none of these make the papers.



I have been thinking about this recently and wondering what is a fair amount for someone on Social Welfare to pay? 

I strongly believe that everyone should make some contribution to their mortgage. 

If I understand the differential rent system correctly, a local authority tenant must pay 15% of their income towards their rent.  This seems fair to me. 

So if someone is on €200 a week Social welfare, they should pay €30 of it towards their mortgage. 

Brendan


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## ClaireM (30 Aug 2013)

There is a set rate that someone on basic Social Welfare is expected to pay before MIS makes up the balance of the interest payment. I think it is €35 per adult.


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## Brendan Burgess (30 Aug 2013)

Hi Claire

That is MIS. I am drawing a comparison with rent on social housing. 

Do you know how that works? Is someone on €200 a week expected to pay something towards their rent? 

Brendan


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## ClaireM (30 Aug 2013)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Hi Claire
> 
> That is MIS. I am drawing a comparison with rent on social housing.
> 
> ...



For Rent Allowance it is the same as MIS, €35 per week. For Local Authority Housing I believe each Local Authority has their own test but everyone must pay some rent.


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## Brendan Burgess (30 Aug 2013)

Hi Claire

OK, from this post, it seems to be €30 per single adult per week, or €35 per couple per week. 

So that would be 



 |single|couple
Jobseekers|€188|€312
Min contribution|€30|€35
|16% |11%
If they have kids, the income would be higher, so the percentage would be a bit lower.

So my figure of suggesting that people should pay at least 10% of their net income seems reasonable.


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## cremeegg (2 Sep 2013)

This discussion raises two points of interest to me.

Within the group of people who live on social welfare there is a large difference between those who have secure accommodation, (rent allowance, RAS, council house in ascending order of security) at a subsidised price. 

And those people who have to pay for private rented accommodation out of their social welfare receipts. There is a lot of real hardship among this group.

The second point arising from this discussion is how frequent posters on AAM respond to people who come on here with debt problems.

They often get well meant advice on how to cut living expenses and prioritise debts.

The dirty little secret is that in Ireland today the best option for a lot of people is simply to pay their creditors nothing and walk away from their debts.  As this case illustrates the consequences don't exist. 

Shouldn't frequent posters on AAM point this out to those people who come on here looking for advice and seem to be unaware of this.


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## Time (2 Sep 2013)

I would probably get banned for making such a suggestion.


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