# Lane Discipline on Multi-Lane Roads



## Marathon Man (1 May 2008)

While driving home last evening, 17:45, I came across a combine harvester, going at about 30kph in a 100kph zone, in the middle lane of a three lane dual-carriageway! On the same stretch I regularly come across JCBs, Dumpers, tractors ......even mopeds!

Lane discipline seems to be getting worse in Ireland. It's now regular to see slow moving traffic in the outer lanes. What do we do? Everyone tails along behind the offender, at anything down to 60 kph in a 100kph zone, or undertake? 

Has anyone ever seen someone being pulled over by the Gardai for "failing to make reasonable progress" while driving in the outer lane(s), or better still, anyone heard of someone being prosecuted for it?

I used to car-pool with a guy who used to head straight onto the outer lane of a dual-carriageway, and drive at about 10mph+ BELOW the speed limit, on the way to work. His logic? "I'm turning RIGHT at X!" X was about 10 miles down the road! Needless to say people undertook - and he complained about them! The "funny" thing - he was a Safety Officer!!


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## efm (1 May 2008)

Marathon Man said:


> Lane discipline seems to be getting worse in Ireland. It's now regular to see slow moving traffic in the outer lanes. What do we do? Everyone tails along behind the offender, at anything down to 60 kph in a 100kph zone, or undertake?
> 
> Has anyone ever seen someone being pulled over by the Gardai for "failing to make reasonable progress" while driving in the outer lane(s), or better still, anyone heard of someone being prosecuted for it?


 
I agree 100% - BTW I have seen the odd Garda pull in someone for lane hogging but they've been far and few between


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## foxylady (1 May 2008)

These are spped limits as in dont go above them, doesnt mean you have to drive at those speeds


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## Squire (1 May 2008)

I once had a professional driver (small 3Tn pick up) complain that he hated it when people undertook him.

He maintained that he was doing nothing wrong and if he was on the inside lane, other drivers would only be speeding in the fast lane. So his logic was that he was preventing other people from braking the speed limit by using the outside lane.

Professional or a danger to other road users?

I never understood why the RSA do not run a series of TV adds to instruct road users on the correct use of lanes, roundabouts, pedestrian crossing etc. There are a lot of people out there with a genuine misunderstanding of the correct way to drive these "hazards". I know they issued the rules of the road to every household but honestly, how many people would take the time to read it?


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## Squire (1 May 2008)

foxylady said:


> These are spped limits as in dont go above them, doesnt mean you have to drive at those speeds


 
True but the point is that if you want to drive below the speed limit then do so on the inner most lane and let other road users progress without hinderance.


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## csirl (1 May 2008)

> Originally Posted by *foxylady* http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?p=621790#post621790
> _These are spped limits as in dont go above them, doesnt mean you have to drive at those speeds_


 
Not strictly true. You must "make due progress" by doing a reasonable speed, taking into consideration the type of road, weather conditions, traffic etc. If e.g. you are on a 100kmph road, conditions are good and the traffic is not heavy, then if you are travelling at anything less than c.85kmph you are breaking the law. This is not enforced in Ireland, but in other countries this is regarded as being as bad as speeding & drivers are ticketed.


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## Caveat (1 May 2008)

Squire said:


> I never understood why the RSA do not run a series of TV adds to instruct road users on the correct use of lanes, roundabouts, pedestrian crossing etc.?


 
They do. Although the ads do not seem to be aired very often.


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## efm (1 May 2008)

foxylady said:


> These are spped limits as in dont go above them, doesnt mean you have to drive at those speeds


 
You may have missed the point slightly - the issue isn't the speed it is inappropriate speed in the incorrect lane ie driving at 60kph in the overtaking lane, on a road with a 100kph speed limit, while the driving lane is free of traffic is causing an obstruction to other road users and slows down the general flow of traffic; and it is against the rules of the road!


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## Squire (1 May 2008)

Caveat said:


> They do.


 
Meh, I don't watch a lot of TV but I can't remember seeing anything in the last 10 years that didn't involve ambulance drivers scraping 16 year old faces off the windscreen of a car. Those type of adds just make most people switch channel IMO.


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## efm (1 May 2008)

Caveat said:


> They do. Although the ads do not seem to be aired very often.


 
Anyone remember that old ad they had about junctions and how to indicate (I think that's what itwas)

[sung] "If you the only car in the world you could drive as you please..."

[spoken] "Well you haven't, and you can't!"


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## Caveat (1 May 2008)

Don't remember that?!?!

The 'current' ads are quite cheap and retro anyway - animation, patronising voiceover...in the style of those 'cinema ads' really.  But I think they are actually new and not re-runs.

I've seen 'how to approach roundabouts/junctions' and 'how to overtake' I think.  But as I said, they don't seem to be shown very often - might have seen them 3 times in the last year maybe?


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## truthseeker (1 May 2008)

Caveat said:


> I've seen 'how to approach roundabouts/junctions' and 'how to overtake' I think.


 
They should use the Walkinstown Roundabout (or the Walkinstown Wheel of Fortune) to demonstrate the above - if you can manage that you can manage anything!


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## mf1 (1 May 2008)

truthseeker said:


> They should use the Walkinstown Roundabout (or the Walkinstown Wheel of Fortune) to demonstrate the above - if you can manage that you can manage anything!



Walkinstown is bad yes but I think it has to be the Red (Mad!) Cow Roundabout for the truly most terrifying feeling of Russian Roulette!


mf


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## truthseeker (1 May 2008)

mf1 said:


> Walkinstown is bad yes but I think it has to be the Red (Mad!) Cow Roundabout for the truly most terrifying feeling of Russian Roulette!
> 
> 
> mf


 
I will agree in theory - I wont agree in practice because I have never used it outside of odd times like very early in the morning or very late at night so I havent experienced 'normal' traffic on it - perhaps Im just too afraid of it!!


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## Marathon Man (1 May 2008)

foxylady said:


> These are spped limits as in dont go above them, doesnt mean you have to drive at those speeds


 
The issue isn't driving at the (speed) limit, it's about driving at the appropriate speed, in the appropriate lane. If there's nothing on your left, then there is no excuse for driving on the outer lanes, whatever the speed.

On the 3 lane section I referred to earlier, I reckon that lane occupancy is, on average; inside (theoretically slowest) lane - 10%, middle overtaking lane - 35% and outer overtaking (aka fast) lane - 55%, i.e. More traffic in the "fast" lane than the other two combined.

On four lane roads the numbers using the inside lane (at least when I drive on them) are close to nil, with the numbers increasing as you go out!


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## shnaek (1 May 2008)

The outer lane is the overtaking lane  - full stop. This is strictly enforced in other countries, many of whom have signage reminding drivers of this fact every few miles. The outer lane is not a cruising lane, nor a speeding lane. It is an overtaking lane. 
This needs to be enforced here in Ireland, along with other rules of the road such as correct indicating on roundabouts etc. 
But we have so many people driving in Ireland who have never passed a test that I doubt our driving habbits are going to improve any time soon!


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## z103 (1 May 2008)

> Walkinstown is bad yes but I think it has to be the Red (Mad!) Cow Roundabout for the truly most terrifying feeling of Russian Roulette!



Russian Roulette at least gives you a fair chance!


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## Mpsox (1 May 2008)

4 times in the last month I've seen tractors and trailers on the Naas bypass which is a motorway

Can't argue with anything about the comments above, however I really wish that people in the outside lane would realise that there isn't a different speed limit on there which is 20km above the official speed limit

And don't get me started on the use(or not) of indicators


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## franmac (2 May 2008)

Squire said:


> Meh, I don't watch a lot of TV but I can't remember seeing anything in the last 10 years that didn't involve ambulance drivers scraping 16 year old faces off the windscreen of a car. Those type of adds just make most people switch channel IMO.


 
Yes I agree and are destroying people who have been in a fatal accident through no fault of their own where they lost a family member.


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## ice (2 May 2008)

But so often is the case that you are doing 100 in the outside lane (where the limit is 100) and you have cars, vans etc right up your a*se - you are driving right on the speed limit but feel under huge pressure to move over straight away. 
I always move back into the other lane as soon as its safe as its not worth crashing over but I find these types of drivers don't give you much time!


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## Squire (2 May 2008)

ice said:


> But so often is the case that you are doing 100 in the outside lane (where the limit is 100) and you have cars, vans etc right up your a*se - you are driving right on the speed limit but feel under huge pressure to move over straight away.
> I always move back into the other lane as soon as its safe as its not worth crashing over but I find these types of drivers don't give you much time!


 
Agreed, there is no excuse for aggressive tailgating like that. A simple flash of the lights should be enough the encourage people to move lanes if there is a need to do so. Never try and slow down a speeder by staying in lane, get out of the way and let them on. You can wave as you pass them after being pulled in further down the road.


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## shnaek (2 May 2008)

ice said:


> But so often is the case that you are doing 100 in the outside lane (where the limit is 100) and you have cars, vans etc right up your a*se - you are driving right on the speed limit but feel under huge pressure to move over straight away.
> I always move back into the other lane as soon as its safe as its not worth crashing over but I find these types of drivers don't give you much time!



You shouldn't be in that lane unless you are overtaking yourself.


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## muzaway (2 May 2008)

On a related note, if a bus lane is inactive - say on a Saturday or Sunday morning - then surely everybody should be driving in it as it is the left-most lane? There seems to be a fear among drivers of using bus lanes even when the sign clearly says they are not in operation. 

As previous posts have mentioned, don't get me started on indicator use...or fog lights and faulty bulbs.


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## truthseeker (2 May 2008)

muzaway said:


> On a related note, if a bus lane is inactive - say on a Saturday or Sunday morning - then surely everybody should be driving in it as it is the left-most lane? There seems to be a fear among drivers of using bus lanes even when the sign clearly says they are not in operation.
> 
> As previous posts have mentioned, don't get me started on indicator use...or fog lights and faulty bulbs.


 
I was driving in a bus lane. Guard stopped me. I said 'Im allowed drive here after 7pm'. Guard looked at his watch and said 'ah its only 5 to 7'. I turned up the radio for him to clearly hear the END of the 7pm news. Perhaps its this attitude has people afraid to use them - if I hadnt had a radio it would have been a case of my word against his.


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## ice (2 May 2008)

shnaek said:


> You shouldn't be in that lane unless you are overtaking yourself.


 
In fairness everyone uses that lane, in particular when its at peak travel times.


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## GarBow (2 May 2008)

ice said:


> In fairness everyone uses that lane, in particular when its at peak travel times.



I think we've found our first culprit


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## Marathon Man (2 May 2008)

ice said:


> In fairness everyone uses that lane, in particular when its at peak travel times.


You appear to be missing the whole point behind this thread - that drivers ARE using the outermost lanes as default lanes - with the result that the inner lanes are underused. Because "everyone uses that lane" doesn't mean that "everyone" should act like lemmings. 

Its quite like driving on the continent - rightmost lanes are full, with the left hand lanes used for overtaking.

It* IS permissable* to change lanes. You won't lose any valuable asset by moving back in after overtaking, nor will you lose time, unless you get blocked in and, if you are, what would you have done with the, say, 10 seconds you have lost?


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## DavyJones (2 May 2008)

I thought it was simply, the outer lane is for overtaking. as soon as I 'm not passing something I move over. lived in UK for many years and have noticed the differance in motorway/duelcarriage driving here. I have seen more than once, people reversing down the hard shoulder of duelcarriage way because they missed an exit, people like that shouldn't be allowed to drive.


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## Ceist Beag (2 May 2008)

Marathon Man said:


> You appear to be missing the whole point behind this thread - that drivers ARE using the outermost lanes as default lanes - with the result that the inner lanes are underused. Because "everyone uses that lane" doesn't mean that "everyone" should act like lemmings.
> 
> Its quite like driving on the continent - rightmost lanes are full, with the left hand lanes used for overtaking.
> 
> It* IS permissable* to change lanes. You won't lose any valuable asset by moving back in after overtaking, nor will you lose time, unless you get blocked in and, if you are, what would you have done with the, say, 10 seconds you have lost?



Marathon Man I agree with you but there is a sad lack of courtesy on our roads that cause people to stay in the overtaking lane in peak traffice. For example there may be 10 cars behind you and after you overtake a car leaving (for example) a few hundred meter on the inner lane free to the next car, if you move in, chances are you will catch up to the next car and still have those same ten cars on the overtaking lane behind you ... and you're then stuck waiting for all 10 cars to pass you as none will let you back out. Hence I can sort of understand when people are reluctant to move back in during peak hours.
Instead of getting annoyed I just relax back and enjoy the radio ... it just ain't worth getting too annoyed!!


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## remey (2 May 2008)

truthseeker said:


> They should use the Walkinstown Roundabout (or the Walkinstown Wheel of Fortune) to demonstrate the above - if you can manage that you can manage anything!


 
What annoys the hell out of me is when I'm approaching a roundabout to drive straight through I stay in left lane and indicate left after I've passed the 1st exit....but some use the right lane for this.
There's one particular roundabout just after Orwell, near Perrystown where this happens every morning. The left lane is usually longer with people going straight into town but some inconsiderates fly up the right and straight through and some near misses have happened.

I get myself into a temper approaching it More fool me...


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## Marathon Man (2 May 2008)

Ceist Beag said:


> Instead of getting annoyed I just relax back and enjoy the radio ... it just ain't worth getting too annoyed!!


 
Yup!! ......and watch the lemmings go by, maybe each 10 -20 feet behind the car in front @ 100kph +/- ...and especially if you're in the leftmost lane, with maybe 1/4 mile to the next car ahead.

Though I can't help getting annoyed at the tractors etc, in the outer lanes, let alone being on these roads in the first place.


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## FredBloggs (2 May 2008)

Last week I was in a 60 km area which had two lanes doing 60km.  I saw a garda car come up behind me so I pulled into the slower lane to allow it pass and I slowed to about 40 kmh.
The garda car immediately put on its siren and stopped me.  The Garda when he came to the window asked why I had pulled across.  when I said it was to let him pass he laughed and said he'd stopped me as he thought I might be drunk (far from it - I was going home from work).  He then got back in his car and sped off!!
Strange country we live in where when you show a bit of courtesy on the road Gardai think you're drunk!


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## ice (2 May 2008)

GarBow said:


> I think we've found our first culprit


 
Guilty as charged 

Mostly I drive on the inside lane as I find most cars in the 'overtaking' lane tend to be driving over the speed limit.

However I find it VERY hard to believe that most people on AAM only use the outside lane for overtaking, in particular, during peak times. The fact is it moves faster and if you stay on the inside lane you are subjected to people going well under the speed limit, slow moving trucks etc. It would be great if the outside lane was used just to overtake but the reality is that this is not the case....


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## shnaek (2 May 2008)

The rules are plainly explained here:


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## Caveat (2 May 2008)

ice said:


> It would be great if the outside lane was used just to overtake but the reality is that this is not the case....


 
...er... partly because of people like you don't forget!


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## Complainer (3 May 2008)

On the 4-lane sections of the M50, I find that the inside lane is invariably empty and allows one to make great progress.


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## ice (3 May 2008)

Caveat said:


> ...er... partly because of people like you don't forget!


 
Yes you are right 

In general I do tend to use the 'slow' lane as I find the those who use the outside line tend to be going over the speed limit. Its only if its really busy or I get 'stuck' in the lane.

Will think of you all the next time I'm about to pull out into the fast lane


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## ice (3 May 2008)

shnaek said:


> The rules are plainly explained here:


 
Ok well this NEVER happens. Take the stillorgan dual carraige way. People use both lanes as using just the one lane (in particular at peak times) would mean the traffic would never flow and you would have an empty lane for most of the time as the speed limit is only 60 for most parts.


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## Humpback (3 May 2008)

Complainer said:


> On the 4-lane sections of the M50, I find that the inside lane is invariably empty and allows one to make great progress.



This inside lane, in the 4 lane section, should not be treated as a normal "slow lane". It is an interchange lane, designed for use only by people who get on at one junction and leave at the next.

Where this 4th lane exists, technically the 2nd lane from the left is the "slow lane".

Though, given our general disregard for lane discipline, if the lane is empty, it'll most likely be used by everyone anyway.

Check out the image - here - for the lane layout.


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## Vanilla (3 May 2008)

Was behind someone driving a Ford Ka ( first heinous crime in itself) yesterday evening on the Limerick bypass to N7, no way would she pull over, although the 'slow' lane was not busy at all. Put on my indicator, but did not flash or anything else as consider this to be too aggressive.  Doesnt happen too much around Limerick from what I've seen cause its not as busy as Dublin I suppose, but very annoying all the same.


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## greenfield (6 May 2008)

I was coming up an empty motorway yesterday, in the inside lane. I could see a slower moving car far in the distance in the overtaking lane. Do I continue in the inner lane and undertake (and commit an offence) or do I move out to the overtaking lane and wait for him to move in? As I got closer and pondered my quandary, the driver obviously spotted me and moved into the inside lane. Good man, I thought, at least you are aware that you should not have been in the overtaking lane. To my complete amusement, as soon as I had overtaken him, he pulled back out to the overtaking lane and continued on his, slow, slow, overtaking lane way. I have come to the conclusion that this is one educational battle that will never be won with Irish drivers.


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## FredBloggs (6 May 2008)

ice said:


> Ok well this NEVER happens. Take the stillorgan dual carraige way. People use both lanes as using just the one lane (in particular at peak times) would mean the traffic would never flow and you would have an empty lane for most of the time as the speed limit is only 60 for most parts.


 

Stillorgan Road isn't a motorway.  Also as you point out speed limit is 60kmh. Speed traps are often (nearly always on nice sunny days) out in force as you come under the Belfield flyover.  With that in mind I always stick to the speed limit and if I am turning right at Foster Avenue I am in the right hand lane.  I'm going at speed limit so no one should either be catching me or trying to pass me - but time and time agian I've very irrate drivers behind me.  A few times I've given in to pressure and let them zoom pass me all red faced and in one nice case the driver of a BMW who looked fit to burst gave me the finger as he passed and roared obsenities (which I couldn't hear but were pretty obvious)..... the unfortunate fellow drove right into a speed trap.  I could only smile pleasantly as I passed him!


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## DavyJones (6 May 2008)

I was driving up to Dublin on Friday and was stuck behind three artic's for the same firm, problem was, that they were so close to each other there was no chance of overtaking safely, Is it legal? very annoying anyway!


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## Complainer (6 May 2008)

ronan_d_john said:


> This inside lane, in the 4 lane section, should not be treated as a normal "slow lane". It is an interchange lane, designed for use only by people who get on at one junction and leave at the next.
> 
> Where this 4th lane exists, technically the 2nd lane from the left is the "slow lane".
> 
> ...



Thanks - you learn something new everyday on AAM.


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## z105 (6 May 2008)

> A simple flash of the lights should be enough the encourage people to move lanes if there is a need to do so



You know this is illegal in GB, it's seen as agressive/intimidating behaviour and not tolerated. Perhaps it should be the same here, it would however be so much easier if people used the outside lane what it is intended for  - Overtaking !!


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## shnaek (7 May 2008)

ice said:


> Ok well this NEVER happens.



Like so many things in the rules of the road! People harp on about speed all the time, but if Irish people learned how to drive it'd be a good start!


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## bullbars (7 May 2008)

shnaek said:


> Like so many things in the rules of the road! People harp on about speed all the time, but if Irish people learned how to drive it'd be a good start!


 
I'd agree, speed is one issue, I dont think anyone can deny that, but I've witnessed just equally dangerous maneuvers from people not knowing basic road rules. Round abouts being one usual spot for mayhem.


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## Squire (7 May 2008)

Havealaugh said:


> You know this is illegal in GB, it's seen as agressive/intimidating behaviour and not tolerated. Perhaps it should be the same here, it would however be so much easier if people used the outside lane what it is intended for - Overtaking !!


 
I don't see why it should be seen as intimidating. It is a simple signal to encourage drivers who are off in their own world to WAKE UP ANY PAY ATTENTION TO YOUR SURROUNDINGS


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## jmayo (7 May 2008)

Some poster mentioned earlier about tractors on the Naas bypass, by which I presume the motorway section.
AFAIK a vehicle capable of at least 50kph can drive on motorway.
That includes most if not all the JCB range of tractors plus a lot of the more modern higher horsepower variable transmission tractors.
Thus these vehicles are not breaking the law.

The level of incompetence and unappreciation for other road users on Irish dual carriageways and motorway roads is staggering when compared to other westernised countries.
I would actually pay to see some of these eejits driving on the Continent or in the likes of California in such a manner.

Greenfield, I have come across multiple instances of drivers hogging the overtaking lane who move over to let you pass and once you have passed move stright back into the overtaking lane. 

Maybe we should have a signs, as in I have seen in some Australian states, on multiple lane roads to remind drivers that we do indeed drive on the left.

Also it now seems to be apparent that the more lanes and the wider the road the slower the speed limits.   This is all to counteract the fact that  some people do not know how to drive and refuse to should any conseration for others.


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