# UB Tracker Return, but capital repaid  because I was on SVR, FSO awards compensation



## MiseÉire (4 Feb 2014)

Hi All,
Just joined this forum having watched from afar for a while so apologies if I get anything wrong.
 I was recently informed that UB will be returning my Tracker and repaying my over payments which is great news. Having started my mortgage on the Tracker (+1.15%) in 2005, I fixed for a 2 year period in 2007 and when it expired in 2009 I was not offered my Tracker back. I queried this and on 3 separate occasions (one verbal, 2 written), the bank infromed me I was not entitled to return to the Tracker. Thanks, in part, to information gained from reading a Key Post by peteB and the replies of Brendan Burgess, the Bank now accepts that there was enough doubt in their wording to return the Tracker to me. 
However, Having been misinformed about my entitlement to the return of the Tracker and being on a rate of 4.6%, I decided to use almost all of my savings to make a series of Capital Repayments, all of which mean my Mortgage is to be redeemed in the very near future. The bank seem to have delayed their dealings with me so that the return of the rate coincides with the end of the mortgage. Had I been given the correct rate I would never have made the Capital repayments. I am now in a position where the Bank gets my loss making Mortgage off the books and my never to be repeated rate will vanish. I plan to buy/build in the not too distant future and would presumably be in a much stronger position looking for a mortgage having a property on a cheap tracker and 100k+ in savings. I am wondering if anyone else is in a similar position and would appreciate any advice as to what my next step, if any, should be. Thanks.


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## Brendan Burgess (4 Feb 2014)

Can you give us the figures, so we can attempt to answer it.

For example 

2005, Borrowed €200,000 on ECB + 1.15% ; term 20 years. 

2007 - 2009 - fixed 

3/ 2009 - 2/2014  - SVR instead of ECB + 1.15%  

June 2006 - capital repaid - €20,000 

June 2008 - capital repaid €40,000

March 2010 - capital repaid €60,000 - Told them to reduce the term and keep the same repayment (If that is what you did) 

Balance today before refund: €70,000


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## Brendan Burgess (4 Feb 2014)

As a general principle

1) They must refund you the overcharge by cheque and not by reducing the balance on your mortgage. 

2) For any capital repayments made during the SVR period, they should treat them as reducing the repayment made rather than shortening the remaining term of the mortgage. 

3) In summary, you should have your original term restored now. 

These three points might not fix the whole problem, but they will go some of the way.


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## MiseÉire (4 Feb 2014)

Thanks for reply Brendan,
Oct 2005 borrowed 190,000 over 30 yrs on Tracker
Aug 2007 Fixed for 2 years
Aug 2009 Not given option of returning to Tracker and put on SV most recent 4.6%
Following Queries and refusals of return of Tracker paid sums totalling 115k off the Capital to reduce the term and continued to pay Monthly amounts. 
Last week told I may have my Tracker rate +1.15 back but Mortgage Balance is 1,250 and will be paid off at the end of the month! 
If I had been on the correct Tracker Rate, I would not have been as anxious to pay down the total as we are in a Semi D and will hope to trade up eventually. Interest on a smaller mortgage sum is less so repayment will therefore be less too I presume. Am I right to feel aggrieved or should I just be happy to be getting my refund?


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## Brendan Burgess (4 Feb 2014)

OK

Stop your Direct Debit so that the final payment is not made. 
Request the refund to be paid directly to your current account or by cheque.
Ask for a full  refund of the capital amounts paid off your mortgage 
They will refuse and you can go to the FSO. 

A fair compromise would be that they would give you the UB switcher tracker for €115,000 when you do trade up. 

Ulster Bank changes terms for people who want to port their tracker to a new home

Brendan


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## Brendan Burgess (5 Feb 2014)

This is one where you might have to take legal advice to see if there are any legal principles which a court of law might uphold.  If there are, a court might be better than the Ombudsman. 

User gabbo reported  his experience in this thread. 
ICS didn't offer him a tracker when his mortgage expired.
He switched to AIB as their rate was cheaper than AIB's.
He later took a complaint about the loss of the tracker.  
The Ombudsman upheld his complaint, but said that ICS's responsibility ended when the borrower switched to AIB. 

In this case, The Daras switched from ptsb after he was put on a SVR. 
When ptsb agreed that he should not have lost his tracker, they took him back on his tracker mortgage. 
But the Ombudsman was not involved in that decision. 

So you should ask for your overpayments back. 
If you don't get it, get legal advice to see if there is a legal principle to support you.
If there isn't, go to the Ombudsman. His history doesn't support you, but he rules in different directions on the same issues, so it's worth a shot.


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## MiseÉire (5 Feb 2014)

Thanks a lot Brendan. I was wondering what reasonable recourse could be made. That seems like a reasonable compromise, I wouldn't have thought of that.
I will get on to that immediately. Thanks again.


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## Brendan Burgess (5 Feb 2014)

Hi 

I don't think you should be asking for that up front. You should be asking for a return of your capital payments ahead of schedule as they were made based on incorrect information given to you by UB.

Brendan


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## MiseÉire (12 Mar 2014)

Just to update, I have written to the bank twice looking for my capital repayments to be returned. They have sent back their final response saying that their previous offer remains open i.e. return of Tracker +1.15 and return of overpayments made since Fixed term came to an end but that they will not move on the capital repayments issue. The bank is of the opinion that no mistake has been made on their side. They say they did not give me any misinformation but are returning my rate in an exceptional circumstance as they can see how I mistakenly thought I was entitled to return to the tracker. They say I have benefitted in terms of savings in interest and that the repayments were not made at their request.  All the above is true but I still feel as they have not addressed my issue. I have had the FSO forms downloaded and ready along with a report of my issue for some time so it seems that this is where I am headed. Anyone think I should just take the offer and be happy my mortgage is paid off? Thanks in advance. M


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## Brendan Burgess (12 Mar 2014)

So they are offering a refund of overcharged interest from August 2009 to March 2013. 

So they overcharged you by around 3% 
Not sure when you made the capital repayments, but let's say your average balance was €100k
So the refund will be around 4.5 years@ €3,000 = c. €13,000 

If you kept the tracker, you would be saving around €180k @3% or €5,400 a year. 

I think it's worth complaining to the Ombudsman. 
1) The worst that can happen is that he dismisses your complaint and UB don't have to pay you the €13,500 - unlikely 
2) He will probably agree with their offer of €13,500 and so you won't gain or lose anything , except the use of the money for the 12 months it takes the Ombudsman to rule 
3) UB might settle it ahead of the ruling somewhere in between.
4) The Ombudsman might rule in your favour and order that your tracker be restored - unlikely but probably worth trying for. 

Brendan


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## MiseÉire (12 Mar 2014)

Thanks Brendan. You made an interesting suggestion of a trade up mortgage in the future for the amount of the extra capital payments. Would it be worth suggesting this to the bank in one final effort to settle this issue? Would the FSO look more favourably on a customer who is genuinely trying to find a resolution? Thanks again.


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## rameire (12 Mar 2014)

the way I am reading the situation here is,
they have applied the interest adjustment to the account and amended the rate, and your balance is now very small.
and you are looking for all the capital lump sum overpayments you made to be refunded to you,
so the lets say 100k or so.
if when you lodged these lump sums and you then agreed to a term reduction you would have had to sign a term reduction letter, I would say there is now way out of this.

unless you made the lump sum overpayments and never requested a term reduction or amendment to your account, then I cant see how they can refuse your request for a refund of your overpayments.

if I have everything wrong and it is the difference in repayments based on the difference in rates, then they should by request refund you the overpayments.


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## MiseÉire (12 Mar 2014)

Thanks rameire. Unfortunately, I did ask for the term to be reduced each time I made a capital payment. However I did this based on what I believe was misinformation and obviously they must too, as banks give nothing for nothing! Maybe I am wrong to feel aggrieved. Thanks for the replies guys. Really appreciate the advice.


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## MiseÉire (16 Oct 2014)

Just a further update on this, the matter has been with the FSO for some time. I recently received correspondence from the FSO saying that the bank had made a further offer of the return of the overpaid interest as well as a goodwill gesture of close to 2k. 
This, while positive in some respects, means my extra lump sum repayments will not be returned to me and the advantage of having the tracker mortgage is gone for this propertynand any future borrowings I may have. The bank maintains their position that they did nothing wrong while I still feel I put my money where I would not have, had I been given the appropriate information. 
I have a period of time to make a decision as to whether I accept this or continue down the road to an investigation which issues a finding that is binding on both parties. 
I would greatly appreciate any feedback/comments which have been very helpful previously. M.


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## Brendan Burgess (16 Oct 2014)

It's very hard to know. 

The reality is that you would not have overpaid your mortgage if you had been on the tracker rate. 

Unfortunately, it's extremely unlikely that the Ombudsman will see it like that.  

Against that, I think that the worst the Ombudsman will do is to order a refund of the overcharge without the €2k gesture. So it's well worth taking the risk and pursuing all the way to the Ombudsman. 

There is some evidence that the lenders are settling cases before the Ombudsman issues his decision in cases where the Ombudsman is most likely to rule against them.  So I think you should hold out. 

Brendan


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## Butter (16 Oct 2014)

I would hold out too.


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## twofor1 (17 Oct 2014)

MiseÉire said:


> This, while positive in some respects, means my extra lump sum repayments will not be returned to me and the advantage of having the tracker mortgage is gone for this propertynand any future borrowings I may have. .


 
Your lump sum repayments will not be returned, but equally, you no longer have the debt.

If the overpaid interest is returned, am I right in saying, the only significant disadvantage you are at then, is being unable to avail of the UB switcher tracker ? 

I accept being able to avail of this tracker would be worth a lot more than the €2K goodwill gesture been offered.

Should the FSO adjudicate, my guess is he will direct UB to return the overpaid interest, but I can’t see him also compensating you, to any significant extent anyway, for something that you might have availed of, at some time in the future.

I would always be one to take a chance particularly if, like you I was wronged, on this occasion though, for the reasons stated, I think I would accept the offer.

If you decide to refuse the offer, make it very clear to the FSO, why you are refusing.

Good luck with whatever you decide.


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## MiseÉire (17 Oct 2014)

Thanks for all the replies. Two for one, I am at the disadvantage of not being eligible for a switcher tracker but also as bad as rates are i would have been earning interest having the 115k on deposit since 2009, while paying a very cheap tracker rate on my mortgage. With the recent changes announced I will not have close to 20% of a deposit to apply for another mortgage, without selling my house at least. The worst case scenario seems to be that I will be refunded the overpaid interest without the 2k gesture. To help with balance and in the interest of optimism, any thoughts as to what best case scenario might be!


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## twofor1 (19 Oct 2014)

MiseÉire said:


> i would have been earning interest having the 115k on deposit since 2009, while paying a very cheap tracker rate on my mortgage. !


 
ECB was 2% in 2009, and only went below 1% in 2012 and is down to 0.05% today.

http://www.*****************.com/ecb-interest-rate-history.html

You say at the start of this tread that your tracker was + 1.15%. Given that you didn’t have the best tracker margin (Many had + 0.50%), it’s hard to see how having your €115K on deposit would have been substantially better than paying off your tracker, particularly when you factor DIRT into the equation.

Would the €2K goodwill gesture now on offer not go a very long way towards any shortfall that you might have ?

I think the best case scenario, might be the current offer, and can’t see the FSO been as generous.


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## MiseÉire (13 Feb 2015)

Hi all,
A final update. My case has finally come to a conclusion with arrival of the finding of the FSOB. I asked to have the capital repayments returned and decided not to accept the offer of slightly less than 2k which the bank had offered. 
The FSO felt that the banks position that it couldn't return the lump sums was not unreasonable so they were not returned. However, they did feel that the bank failed to respond properly to the attempts to resolve the matter and that the compensation offered was not reasonable. They have directed the bank to repay the overpaid interest and increase their compensatory payment from just under 2k to just under 7k. This is legally binding on both parties, subject only to an appeal to the High Court. 
I am not going to go near the High Court with this and feel relief that it is over at last. This has been going on since November 2013 and involved a lot of effort but I think those efforts have paid off in the end. 
I would like to sincerely thank all those who have offered advice and their thoughts on this thread and the many others in relation to Tracker Mortgages on AAM, in particular Brendan Burgess whose guidance was especially helpful. Thanks again. 
M.


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## Bronte (14 Feb 2015)

Well done.  And good to see the ombudsman is now awarding reasonable amounts of compensation, it was about time that office stopped being so soft on banks in their award amounts.

Your success shows that you can win you just have to persevere with your case. And that is no easy thing.


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## MiseÉire (14 Feb 2015)

Thanks Bronte. I agree completely, these things can definitely be won but the hard part is keep going and not give in the obstruction and bureaucracy of banks. Checking back over some papers made me realise how frustrating the whole process of dealing with the bank was. Many times I rang phone lines which were not answered, left messages which were not returned and sent letters which were not acknowledged and on one occasion the existence of which was even denied. 
I must say this was in stark contrast to the FSOB who I found to be most efficient (perhaps because of criticism I had previously heard) and I was expecting the findings to take longer.The findings included a list of all my attempts to contact the bank which were regular and sustained. The bank was criticised for the delays in their replies and this was, I feel,  a major factor in the compensation being increased. Good luck to anyone else in the process and don't give up hope!


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## Brendan Burgess (15 Feb 2015)

Mise Éire

That's great news and thanks for the update. 

Well done on sticking with it.  It's a pity that the FSO didn't have to give you your overpayments back.

But the story could be very interesting for the ptsb customers whose trackers are being reviewed at present. 

Brendan


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## twofor1 (15 Feb 2015)

MiseÉire said:


> However, they did feel that the bank failed to respond properly to the attempts to resolve the matter and that the compensation offered was not reasonable. They have directed the bank to repay the overpaid interest and increase their compensatory payment from just under 2k to just under 7k.



Well done, on both winning your case and your perseverance in continuing to adjudication.

Apart from the return of overpaid interest, you got €7K in compensation, to date anyway I think it’s unusual for the FSO to award such compensation. In my experience, and from other reports on AAM, the compensation element of the FSO’s findings has always been minimal, if awarded at all.

Hopefully the FSO will continue to award reasonable compensation to deter providers from continuing with their bad behaviour.


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## MiseÉire (15 Feb 2015)

Thanks Guys. I think the amount reflects that it is clear that I wouldn't have made the capital repayments had I been on the tracker which I should have been. I don't think I ever really expected to get the money back (I think Brendan first suggested it) but looking back I think it was important to have a strong starting point and knowledge that nobody gets exactly what they're after.
Having said that, I am sure I will be annoyed when I am paying the SVR instead of  ecb +1.15 on my next mortgage.


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## Bronte (16 Feb 2015)

MiseÉire said:


> the hard part is keep going and not give in the obstruction and bureaucracy of banks. Checking back over some papers made me realise how frustrating the whole process of dealing with the bank was. Many times I rang phone lines which were not answered, left messages which were not returned and sent letters which were not acknowledged and on one occasion the existence of which was even denied.
> 
> Good luck to anyone else in the process and don't give up hope!


 
Indeed that is the hard part, know all about phones unanswered etc.  Banks in my opinion have a policy to do things that way.  They are not what their ads would have you believe, not when you have a problem that is of their making.


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## MiseÉire (1 Apr 2018)

Hi All, 
Got a registered letter out of the blue last week. To cut a long story short (read posts above!) I went to the ombudsman and was quite happy overall with the resolution, despite the frustration involved. 
The letter informed me that due to being on the wrong rate I had paid extra for redeeming the mortgage and was therefore entitled to further redress, compensation, a payment for Time Value of Money and a payment towards professional advice, whether I decide to get it or not. 
Absolutely delighted to get an unexpected, fairly large cheque. However, on Page 10 of the letter explaining the process it mentions that I may be entitled to get my tracker back and gives a number to ring to see if I fulfil the criteria. I have recently begun to draw down a mortgage for our (completely separate) new build. When we first met with the bank the best rate was 3% variable which suited us at the time. My initial reaction was to cash it immediately to help with the ongoing project which has many areas over budget. But the thought of getting to port the tracker to the new build stopped me from cashing it on Friday.
Would appreciate the thoughts of anyone as to whether I should be happy with an unexpected bonus or get ready to go back to the trenches with the Bank again.
Thanks,
MiseÉire


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## notabene (2 Apr 2018)

@MiseÉire Congratulations! Cash the cheque - completely separate to whether you can get you are eligible to get your tracker back and also you can still appeal the sums awarded with the cheque cashed. Apply for an appeal pack and discuss with them moving back on to your tracker - as far as they are saying at the moment to me, in that situation you would move on to the tracker mover product which i think is ECB +2% for ten years but you'd need to contact them to know exactly.


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## MiseÉire (3 Apr 2018)

Thanks a lot @notabene and thanks for sharing all your hard earned knowledge on this topic. In the letter I was given a number to ring to discuss and get application forms to return to the tracker and will do so this afternoon. UB have a fixed rate for 2.6% which I didn't opt for as I like the idea of chipping away at the mortgage with extra payments (if/when I can!)  so I chose the 3% SVR on my new mortgage. I will see what the call brings. Thanks again.


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