# Tenant refusing to move



## Introuble83 (17 Dec 2021)

I am trying to sell my rental property . The house is currently rented . The tenant was provided with 9 months notice., the property is managed by an estate agent who charges me a monthly fee. The same agent will be selling the property for me . The agent is advising me the tenant can’t find accommodation elsewhere and they are trying to find them a place . I believe thd issue here is the rent is was charging was below market rates and they now can’t afford the current rates . The tenant is on HAP.  Bar sit and wait for the tenant to find a place is there anything I can do ? I am dissatisfied given the lengthy notice period provided . They have had enough time to find a solution and I want to sell up .,


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## Sarenco (17 Dec 2021)

I feel your pain.

I’m afraid this is one of the negative consequences of rent controls - tenants that benefit from below market rents are hugely incentivised to overhold.

The first step in the process is to look for a determination order from the RTB.  You need to be sure that you have fulfilled all statutory requirements in framing your termination notice.

Then you can go to Court to enforce the RTB determination order and ultimately move to evict your tenant.  The RTB may assist with the enforcement process but that’s at their discretion.

I’m afraid you will need to be patient - the whole process can take over two years to complete.

Alternatively, you could try bribing the tenant to leave.   That may or may not be successful.


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## Baby boomer (17 Dec 2021)

Sarenco said:


> I feel your pain.
> 
> I’m afraid this is one of the negative consequences of rent controls - tenants that benefit from below market rents are hugely incentivised to overhold.
> 
> ...


Offering the tenant a cash incentive to leave is a perfectly legitimate and legal option.   It might well be a pragmatic solution that works to the advantage of all.

 "Bribe" could imply some level of illegality.  This isn't the case here.


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## Sarenco (17 Dec 2021)

Baby boomer said:


> "Bribe" could imply some level of illegality.  This isn't the case here.


Fair enough - I didn’t mean to imply that the payment would be illegal.

Mind you, calling it a cash incentive doesn’t sound right either - after all, the tenant is defaulting on their contractual obligation to quit the property.


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## Baby boomer (17 Dec 2021)

Sarenco said:


> Fair enough - I didn’t mean to imply that the payment would be illegal.
> 
> Mind you, calling it a cash incentive doesn’t sound right either - after all, the tenant is defaulting on their contractual obligation to quit the property.


Very true.  Although there's a complex interaction between the contractual rights and obligations of the parties and the statutory rights and obligations created by the Residential Tenancies Act.  The latter sometimes override the former.


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## Sarenco (17 Dec 2021)

Baby boomer said:


> Very true.  Although there's a complex interaction between the contractual rights and obligations of the parties and the statutory rights and obligations created by the Residential Tenancies Act.  The latter sometimes override the former.


It does indeed but the OP is still legally entitled to the return of his property with vacant possession.

The problem, of course, is that the process for enforcing that entitlement is wholly inadequate.


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## cremeegg (18 Dec 2021)

Sarenco said:


> It does indeed but the OP is still legally entitled to the return of his property with vacant possession.
> 
> The problem, of course, is that the process for enforcing that entitlement is wholly inadequate.


If the law does not allow a process to enforce a right, does the right exist.

Not a philosophical question.


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## cremeegg (18 Dec 2021)

If the tenant is overloading is the landlord obliged to provide electricity, water, broadband etc. to the premises?

Is there any reason why the landlord cannot paint/redecorate his property?

Is there any reason why the landlord cannot sell their property which is on the premises, cooker, beds, TV etc?


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## Thirsty (18 Dec 2021)

cremeegg said:


> ...why the landlord cannot sell their property which is on the premises, cooker, beds, TV etc


I am reasonably certain this would be construed as harrassment and would put you on the back foot, at best; or subject to proceedings at worst.

Taking the law into your own hands rarely ends well.


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## Sarenco (19 Dec 2021)

cremeegg said:


> If the law does not allow a process to enforce a right, does the right exist.
> 
> Not a philosophical question.


Well, the law does allow for the enforcement of rights so it’s a moot question.

The fact that the process takes far too long to complete is the problem.


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## Sarenco (19 Dec 2021)

cremeegg said:


> If the tenant is overloading is the landlord obliged to provide electricity, water, broadband etc. to the premises?


Electricity bills, etc., would generally be in the name of the tenant.


cremeegg said:


> Is there any reason why the landlord cannot paint/redecorate his property?


No but what would that achieve?


cremeegg said:


> Is there any reason why the landlord cannot sell their property which is on the premises, cooker, beds, TV etc?


Yes, assuming they formed part of the let property.


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## Introuble83 (5 Feb 2022)

Tenant still in the property. Dispute lodged with rtb. Lease is now well expired. Hap portion of rent stopped . I need the tenant gone so I can sell . Any advise ? With no rent now being received I need a resolution and fast


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## NoRegretsCoyote (5 Feb 2022)

Introuble83 said:


> Any advise ? With no rent now being received I need a resolution and fast


Offer them a cash inducement.

Something like deposit on new place and first month's rent.

It's a disgrace that landlords' rights are so difficult to enforce. But in the scheme of things it'll be worth your while.


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## Introuble83 (5 Feb 2022)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> Offer them a cash inducement.
> 
> Something like deposit on new place and first month's rent.
> 
> It's a disgrace that landlords' rights are so difficult to enforce. But in the scheme of things it'll be worth your while.


Seems to be the most feasible option but the idea of having to do this is very upsetting and frustrating. Terrible that this seems to be my only option. The longer it drags on the more money I’m losing .


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## cremeegg (5 Feb 2022)

Why has the HAP portion of the rent been stopped. Will the tenant receive HAP support in a new property.

With HAP support the tenant pays very little from their income toward the rent. If HAP have withdrawn from supporting the tenant, it would at the least involve a process for that to be reinstated. What prospect does the tenant have of getting new accommodation without HAP support.

A few months rents is no incentive for them to move.


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## Introuble83 (5 Feb 2022)

cremeegg said:


> Why has the HAP portion of the rent been stopped. Will the tenant receive HAP support in a new property.
> 
> With HAP support the tenant pays very little from their income toward the rent. If HAP have withdrawn from supporting the tenant, it would at the least involve a process for that to be reinstated. What prospect does the tenant have of getting new accommodation without HAP support.
> 
> A few months rents is no incentive for them to move.





cremeegg said:


> Why has the HAP portion of the rent been stopped. Will the tenant receive HAP support in a new property.
> 
> With HAP support the tenant pays very little from their income toward the rent. If HAP have withdrawn from supporting the tenant, it would at the least involve a process for that to be reinstated. What prospect does the tenant have of getting new accommodation without HAP support.
> 
> A few months rents is no incentive for them to move.


According to the agent the tenant advised the social welfare she was leaving 31/12 when the lease expired and they therefore cancelled . Perhaps a HAP requirement is an up to date lease . She is now saying she cannot find anywhere which may well be true. Nonetheless, she needs to move on so I can sell


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## cremeegg (6 Feb 2022)

Forget selling, your problem is getting vacant possession of your property. Only when you have that done can you even think about selling.

The fact that the HAP stopped because she gave notice, rather than stopped paying them her share is good news, she is not in default with them so they should support her in a new lease without too much trouble.

As HAP are no longer paying she will have to pay the full amount of the lease herself directly now. While this may seem unrealistic I would demand the rent regularly, see RTB website for sample letters. 

I would also tell the tenant that unless she moves out you will report to HAP that she is overholding. HAP can be slow to support tenants who have breached leases in the past. She will understand that you will eventually get possession and if she can no longer rely on HAP she will be in a worse situation. I would be slow to actually do this however.

If you increase the pressure slowly like this, demanding rent due, talking about reporting for overholding etc. she will eventually find a solution. You hope!

Who needs to be demanding and threatening to simply get what you are legally and morally entitled to. This is why I never rent to families.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (6 Feb 2022)

cremeegg said:


> A few months rents is no incentive for them to move.


Everyone has a price.

For the OP is may be more cost effective to go the bureaucratic route, they know what makes sense economically for them. But it strikes me they are in a hurry.

I wouldn't rule out a cash incentive if it gets them to the same place quicker.


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## Páid (6 Feb 2022)

Regarding rent arrears, you should serve a notice on the tenant if the arrears situation is not resolved.






						Rent arrears and Notices of Termination | Residential Tenancies Board
					

RTB operates Ireland's National Tenancy Register and resolving disputes between Landlords, tenants and third parties. Governed by residential Tenancies Act 2004. View more information on landlords and tenancies.




					www.rtb.ie


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## MrCat (6 Feb 2022)

I'm hoping I don't find myself in a situation like this later this year.
I contacted the local council to see would they be interested in buying my property and keeping the current tenants on.
They didn't say no, they said it can be done in certain circumstances.
I was supposed to contact them in January to see if they had funding for 2022.... forgot about it, must get moving as its quite possible I'll end up in a situation like yours.


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## thestart (8 Feb 2022)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> Offer them a cash inducement.
> 
> Something like deposit on new place and first month's rent.
> 
> It's a disgrace that landlords' rights are so difficult to enforce. But in the scheme of things it'll be worth your while.


Would this payment be tax deductible as an expense?


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## NoRegretsCoyote (8 Feb 2022)

thestart said:


> Would this payment be tax deductible as an expense?


I don't think so.


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## jpd (8 Feb 2022)

Would the tenant be liable for gift tax if the payment is over € 3,000?


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## Introuble83 (8 Feb 2022)

I am meeting the tenant Friday . I have no intention on offering a lump sum at this point. The dispute process has been registered. Hopefully they will agree to move.


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## Baby boomer (8 Feb 2022)

thestart said:


> Would this payment be tax deductible as an expense?


I'd hope it would.  It's analogous to an employer paying an ex-gratia redundancy sum to encourage an employee to leave.


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## Sconeandjam (9 Feb 2022)

Introuble83 said:


> I am meeting the tenant Friday . I have no intention on offering a lump sum at this point. The dispute process has been registered. Hopefully they will agree to move.


Ask your tenant to register with choice lettings. a number of councils have this system set up which lists social as well as long term lease properties. They can apply for a property but they cannot refuse once they are offered the property. I do not know how many properties are on the system but could be worth them checking it out. 
They need to contact the council to ask for reinstatement of rent until they find somewhere. 
 They need to be proactive. 
We gave a tenant notice to quit and they did find somewhere but she did leave the house in a state so be prepared. Deposit no where covered the costs of fixing up the property.


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## Leo (9 Feb 2022)

jpd said:


> Would the tenant be liable for gift tax if the payment is over € 3,000?


It's not a gift, it's a payment so should be treated as income, but of course it won't.


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## Thirsty (9 Feb 2022)

> payment so should be treated as income


Why would you see this as income and not a gift?

As for gift tax, if there's more than one person in the house then you could be 'gifting' each person €3k before any tax, so I don't imagine that would be an issue.

In any event, it's unlikely the overholding tenant will be concerned with reporting the gift; and I don't see that the property owner has any interest in doing so.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (9 Feb 2022)

Baby boomer said:


> I'd hope it would.  It's analogous to an employer paying an ex-gratia redundancy sum to encourage an employee to leave.


I can't see how it could be viewed as an allowable expense according to the Revenue guidelines.


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## longwexman (9 Feb 2022)

We're in the same boat, notice served for end Aug last year,  managed to go sale agreed while tenant was in the house but he didn't leave, and now can't get tenant out, and we've lost the sale of the house, which is fine as we will sell again, but we need the tenant out so we can advertise for sale with vacant possession. He's apparently moving to a new house which has no completion date as yet, so essentially we are waiting for him to go. Am considering referring it to the RTB for over holding - does anyone know how long it takes from submission of form to an adjudication?


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## NoRegretsCoyote (9 Feb 2022)

westlongman said:


> does anyone know how long it takes from submission of form to an adjudication?


It could be three to six months. 

Start immediately. It also increases leverage on the tenant.


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## Baby boomer (9 Feb 2022)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> I can't see how it could be viewed as an allowable expense according to the Revenue guidelines.


I don't know - I'm just analysing it from first principles.  But if it were structured as a refund of rent, or a waiving of unpaid rent, then I think it would surely pass muster?


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## galway_blow_in (9 Feb 2022)

jpd said:


> Would the tenant be liable for gift tax if the payment is over € 3,000?



Johnny Cash


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## ClubMan (9 Feb 2022)

galway_blow_in said:


> Johnny Cash


After Taxes?


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## galway_blow_in (9 Feb 2022)

ClubMan said:


> After Taxes?


any kind of parting gift to a tenant will be done on the QT


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## Purple (9 Feb 2022)

Introuble83 said:


> I am meeting the tenant Friday . I have no intention on offering a lump sum at this point. The dispute process has been registered. Hopefully they will agree to move.


It's a very fraught and difficult situation for both you and your tenant. It's quite understandable that they don't want to move out until they have somewhere to move in to.
This is what happens when the social responsibility of providing housing for those who can't afford it is pushed onto the private sector and the private sector is then vilified when it can't provide it adequately.


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## Leo (9 Feb 2022)

Thirsty said:


> Why would you see this as income and not a gift?


I'm far from an expert in the area, but if someone is receiving a payment to perform an act or service (leave the property), then it can't be a no-strings-attached gift.


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## Cervelo (9 Feb 2022)

galway_blow_in said:


> any kind of parting gift to a tenant will be done on the QT


And then after you've got your property back inform revenue of the cash payment to the tenant!!


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## Sconeandjam (9 Feb 2022)

Baby boomer said:


> I'd hope it would.  It's analogous to an employer paying an ex-gratia redundancy sum to encourage an employee to leave.


Giving a tenant money to leave is not a good idea. Your not going to get the tenant to sign a receipt? Your opening a can of worms. Revenue would not allow this as an expense.


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## galway_blow_in (9 Feb 2022)

Cervelo said:


> And then after you've got your property back inform revenue of the cash payment to the tenant!!


 I would never volunteer information which makes me look like I offered someone a bribe


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## thestart (9 Feb 2022)

I would give a post dated cheque. Would be traceable and reasonable. Couldn’t trust a over holding tenant to move out with cash. Get in writing it’s a refund of rent.


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## Baby boomer (9 Feb 2022)

Sconeandjam said:


> Giving a tenant money to leave is not a good idea. Your not going to get the tenant to sign a receipt? Your opening a can of worms. Revenue would not allow this as an expense.


I don't know what the Revenue attitude is.  All I can do is try to analyse the thing from first principles.  So let's take a situation where a tenant has received a valid notice of termination but refuses to quit.  The landlord's next step is an application to the RTB to get an Order directing the tenant to leave.  The tenant can appeal this to a Tenancy Tribunal who can affirm the Order.  If the tenant still refuses to quit, the landlord will need to go to the District Court to enforce the Order.  Only at that point can the tenant actually be evicted, by force if necessary.  Now, consider all the costs involved in that.  The landlord may well choose to use a solicitor or letting agent to prepare and present the case to both the RTB and the Tenancy Tribunal.  He will certainly need to use a solicitor to make the application to the District Court.  Then there's the cost of carrying out the eviction itself.  In total, let's take a guess, perhaps €2,000 upwards, maybe more if the eviction process is messy. Add in a locksmith to change locks and tradesman costs to repair damage done by the overstaying tenant.    *But every single cent of those costs will be fully allowable against gross rental income.*  So, logically, as an alternative to all that, why should a perfectly lawful incentive payment to secure immediate vacant possession not be equally allowable?


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## RetirementPlan (10 Feb 2022)

thestart said:


> I would give a post dated cheque. Would be traceable and reasonable. Couldn’t trust a over holding tenant to move out with cash. Get in writing it’s a refund of rent.


So the tenant has to trust you not to cancel the cheque?


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## thestart (10 Feb 2022)

I wouldn’t do it any other way. The landlord did nothing wrong or illegal. The tenant caused the problem and can’t be trusted.


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## T McGibney (10 Feb 2022)

Sconeandjam said:


> Revenue would not allow this as an expense.


Why not?


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## Sarenco (10 Feb 2022)

T McGibney said:


> Why not?


What heading would it fall under?

I would have thought it was a post-letting “expense”, which is not deductible.


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## T McGibney (10 Feb 2022)

Sarenco said:


> What heading would it fall under?


Management expense, I would think? 


Sarenco said:


> I would have thought it was a post-letting “expense”, which is not deductible.


If it's proposed and accepted while the letting is in place, it won't be a post-letting expense.


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## Sarenco (10 Feb 2022)

T McGibney said:


> If it's proposed and accepted while the letting is in place, it won't be a post-letting expense.


But in this case the tenancy has been terminated - the tenant is over holding.


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## T McGibney (10 Feb 2022)

Sarenco said:


> But in this case the tenancy has been terminated - the tenant is over holding.


It's not.



> I am trying to sell my rental property . The house is currently rented....  The tenant is on HAP.


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## Sarenco (10 Feb 2022)

T McGibney said:


> It's not.


Well, I understood that the tenant was over holding.

If that’s not the case, what’s the dispute before the RTB about?


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## T McGibney (10 Feb 2022)

Sarenco said:


> Well, I understood that the tenant was over holding.
> 
> If that’s not the case, what’s the dispute before the RTB about?


My reading of it is that the tenant won't leave til they find alternative accommodation and is currently paying a below-market-rate rent.


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## Sarenco (10 Feb 2022)

T McGibney said:


> My reading of it is that the tenant won't leave til they find alternative accommodation


The fact that the OP has yet to achieve vacant possession of the property doesn’t mean that a new tenancy has been created.

In any event, this is all moot in this case.


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## T McGibney (10 Feb 2022)

Sarenco said:


> The fact that the OP has yet to achieve vacant possession of the property doesn’t mean that a new tenancy has been created.
> 
> In any event, this is all moot in this case.


I don't understand your point. As long as the tenant is there and rent is being paid via HAP there is a continuing letting, and the property only moves to a post-letting phase once they vacate. In the meantime rental income will remain taxable and and normally deductible costs will _ceteris paribus_ remain deductible.


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## Sarenco (10 Feb 2022)

That’s not my understanding of the fact pattern.


Introuble83 said:


> Tenant still in the property. Dispute lodged with rtb. Lease is now well expired. Hap portion of rent stopped .


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## Introuble83 (10 Feb 2022)

On the above . The tenant is overloading . The HAP has stopped . The rent is in arrears . The dispute is gone to RTB as the tenant has not left and is claiming they cannot find other accommodation which may well be the case , however , the notice was served almost 12 months ago.


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## Sconeandjam (10 Feb 2022)

Introuble83 said:


> On the above . The tenant is overloading . The HAP has stopped . The rent is in arrears . The dispute is gone to RTB as the tenant has not left and is claiming they cannot find other accommodation which may well be the case , however , the notice was served almost 12 months ago.


Sorry to hear your tenant has not left. 
First add to your complaint as well as overholding non payment of rent. Follow Rtb procedures for non payment of rent and give extra day. 14 day then 28day notice and then inform Rtb. Details on their site for more details.

Next get your tenant to contact the council that is paying HAP and ask them to temporarily reinstate the rent. If they say there is no contract in place do not raise a new contract. The council will help them find a place even short term. Overholding can stop them getting Hap for future properties.

If that fails they need to contact SW officer for their area they officer may temporarily help pay some of the rent and as they are deemed homesless and the SW will help them find temporary accommodation. They will also get additional amount under homesless HAP which hopefully bring them closer to the rents.

Tenants many have been given notice but they often think you will change your mind. With the changes to residential tenancies act allowing people to have indefinate tenancies no wonder there are very few properties.

We also gave tenants notice on a property and expect what you are going through right now.


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## Lockup (11 Feb 2022)

@scon how long until your tenant is due to leave


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## Sconeandjam (11 Feb 2022)

Lockup said:


> @scon how long until your tenant is due to leave


For us move out date is end of Aug.
Tenant on rent allowance.  Did not increase over the years so got caught with rent caps in a rpz. 1200 pm when going rate is 1850 pm. It was a long term plan for us for a pension. Mortgage more than the rent. After tax get 590 towards the mortgage and maintenance property tax etc.
Would love to keep the house as it was the family home but it is just not worth it anymore. After buying from the family at an inflated price  above the height of the housing market will be selling below what we paid for it.

We have a few properties and selling up. Have given notice to other tenants as well.

Do not want to derail Introuble83 post. Looks like you had a tenant in the same situation as Introuble83. If you have advice please share. If you prefer to speak off main thread please do. I am sure Introuble would appreciate it.
Introuble83 I feel your pain.


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## Introuble83 (11 Feb 2022)

Sconeandjam said:


> Sorry to hear your tenant has not left.
> First add to your complaint as well as overholding non payment of rent. Follow Rtb procedures for non payment of rent and give extra day. 14 day then 28day notice and then inform Rtb. Details on their site for more details.
> 
> Next get your tenant to contact the council that is paying HAP and ask them to temporarily reinstate the rent. If they say there is no contract in place do not raise a new contract. The council will help them find a place even short term. Overholding can stop them getting Hap for future properties.
> ...


Many thanks for the advise


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## Lockup (11 Feb 2022)

story sounds like mine also.

I was a tenant and a LL and the government has turned tenants litigious (threshold should be called overhold) and turned LLs off of wanting to rent out to anyone


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## Introuble83 (11 Feb 2022)

Meeting was uneventful but necessary. They seemed to be clutching at straws on the hope I was going to change my mind . They advised me they are on top of the waiting list for a social house which is obviously nothing to do with me either way . I requested they be gone by month end. They were full of false promises and unfortunately I see this rumbling on a while longer.


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## Pinoy adventure (11 Feb 2022)

Would the heavy handed approach move things on quickly for the landlord ? 
Maybe not the right way too go but things might move somewhat quicker


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## Introuble83 (11 Feb 2022)

Pinoy adventure said:


> Would the heavy handed approach move things on quickly for the landlord ?
> Maybe not the right way too go but things might move somewhat quicker


Well depends on what you mean my heavy handed ? Not really prepared to literally throw them out or pay someone to do that . I am putting the for sale sign up Monday morning. I’m hoping that might give them a further nudge


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## Sconeandjam (11 Feb 2022)

Introuble83 said:


> Meeting was uneventful but necessary. They seemed to be clutching at straws on the hope I was going to change my mind . They advised me they are on top of the waiting list for a social house which is obviously nothing to do with me either way . I requested they be gone by month end. They were full of false promises and unfortunately I see this rumbling on a while longer.


Being at the top of the housing list means nothing. That is for council housing. They do have options to living in a RAS property or in a housing association property but they may want a council property.  Had a tenant that was no. 150 for years on the housing list  and moved to 125 last year. There are many people that are higher priority.  They can apply for housing association accommodation through the council.


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## Sconeandjam (11 Feb 2022)

Lockup said:


> story sounds like mine also.
> 
> I was a tenant and a LL and the government has turned tenants litigious (threshold should be called overhold) and turned LLs off of wanting to rent out to anyone


There are two injured parties here. The tenant and the landlord. Both caught up in a fractured system. With large corporate landlords that people wanted are now making it difficult for tenants to find affordable housing.

Agreed Threshold tell you to stay when legally you have no right to. RTB are slow to act as they do not want to be seen to confirm move out dates.

Were you not a landlord? How long did it take from move out date to actual date?


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## Introuble83 (16 Feb 2022)

By means of update . The house is now for sale and up online . Viewings will begin over the next 2 weeks. The tenant is still there . I’m hoping the selling process gives them a nudge .


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## PaddyBloggit (16 Feb 2022)

Introuble83 said:


> I’m hoping the selling process gives them a nudge .



I reckon you are hoping against hope.... with no place to go, they won't budge until they are forced out, which it appears, that you can't do.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (16 Feb 2022)

Introuble83 said:


> Viewings will begin over the next 2 weeks.



I'll tell you a story. We viewed a house years ago which was on the market as a rental. The viewings took place with the tenants in the house watching TV and eating their dinner. It was a bit weird. We weren't put off as we were FTBs and had time on our hands. We put in a bid, then another, and had the offer accepted 

We subsequently went sale agreed and tenants cleared out with no hassle well before closing But I would say the whole scenario put off a lot of bidders. Bear in mind this was at a time with lots of rental properties for the tenants to move on to - the opposite of now!

As a potential bidder (particularly one in a chain) I would be really put off by the presence of sitting tenants.


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## Introuble83 (16 Feb 2022)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> I'll tell you a story. We viewed a house years ago which was on the market as a rental. The viewings took place with the tenants in the house watching TV and eating their dinner. It was a bit weird. We weren't put off as we were FTBs and had time on our hands. We put in a bid, then another, and had the offer accepted
> 
> We subsequently went sale agreed and tenants cleared out with no hassle well before closing But I would say the whole scenario put off a lot of bidders. Bear in mind this was at a time with lots of rental properties for the tenants to move on to - the opposite of now!
> 
> As a potential bidder (particularly one in a chain) I would be really put off by the presence of sitting tenants.


They have agreed not to be present during viewings so hopefully that will help .


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## Wandering_Dazed (16 Feb 2022)

Long time lurker on a previous account, this forum helped me so much when buying my first house back in 2018. 

Now I'm back researching the guru's advice around trading up, avoiding chains etc. Anyway skip to the point! 

Isn't this thread a great example as to why small private landlords are exiting the rental market en masse?

For example, I'm lucky enough to have passed the negative equity from the bust, changed jobs and now in a place to trade up. If I sold my current house it would cover the mortgage owed and some extra.

I could hold onto my current PPR and become a landlord. From everything I have heard from friends akin to this thread I'd run a mile!


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## jpd (16 Feb 2022)

Hopefully, they will also agree not to be there on closing day


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## LS400 (17 Feb 2022)

Introuble83 said:


> The tenant is still there . I’m hoping the selling process gives them a nudge .



Unfortunately, with the system we have here, that may have played into the tenants corner for a payout from you.

They can sit tight for months on end without fear from the legal system we have. 

If you get an offer on your home that your quite happy to accept, there will be incentives from you to pay the tenants to move out.

I'm not suggesting this will be the case in your predicament, as you have to have a certain mind set to carry on like that.


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## Introuble83 (10 Mar 2022)

By means of update the tenant secured a council house and I will get vacant possession Monday morning. They are 2k in arrears and I hold an 850 euro deposit. I assume there is little value in chasing the arrears ? In respect of bills in the tenants name am I liable for any arrears ? Can these arrears impede on the selling process ? Very glad my stint as a landlord is coming to an end


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## NoRegretsCoyote (10 Mar 2022)

Introuble83 said:


> They are 2k in arrears and I hold an 850 euro deposit.


You can get an RTB determination for the unpaid arrears and then seek to enforce it in the District Court.

It is probably not worth your time and hassle unfortunately.




Introuble83 said:


> In respect of bills in the tenants name am I liable for any arrears ?


AFAIK utlities arrears can't impede the sale of a house.


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## Shirazman (10 Mar 2022)

Introuble83 said:


> In respect of bills in the tenants name am I liable for any arrears ? Can these arrears impede on the selling process ?



Not to my knowledge.   But if one of the bills is for electricity then if the tenants don't settle it, they may have problems getting an electricity account for their new home.


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## noproblem (10 Mar 2022)

Shirazman said:


> Not to my knowledge.   But if one of the bills is for electricity then if the tenants don't settle it, they may have problems getting an electricity account for their new home.


Their partner mightn't have a problem though


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## Shirazman (10 Mar 2022)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> You can get an RTB determination for the unpaid arrears and then seek to enforce it in the District Court.
> 
> It is probably not worth your time and hassle unfortunately.



Would such a determination affect their credit rating?    If so, then it might be worth doing ............. even if only for spite!


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## Firefly (10 Mar 2022)

Introuble83 said:


> By means of update the tenant secured a council house and I will get vacant possession Monday morning. They are 2k in arrears and I hold an 850 euro deposit. I assume there is little value in chasing the arrears ? In respect of bills in the tenants name am I liable for any arrears ? Can these arrears impede on the selling process ? Very glad my stint as a landlord is coming to an end


So you're down 1,150? I think you were extremely lucky...


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## Sconeandjam (28 Apr 2022)

Introuble83 said:


> By means of update the tenant secured a council house and I will get vacant possession Monday morning. They are 2k in arrears and I hold an 850 euro deposit. I assume there is little value in chasing the arrears ? In respect of bills in the tenants name am I liable for any arrears ? Can these arrears impede on the selling process ? Very glad my stint as a landlord is coming to an end


Great to hear your news of the tenant getting council housing. Strange how the council can provide accommodation as soon as you put the for sale sign up in the garden.
In regards to the arrears of the energy bills they are not your concern. Contact a different energy provider, give a meter reading and put the account in your name. The other company can go after your X tenant.  Even if you have forwarding details for the tenant the energy provider will not take the details due to gdpr.
Make sure you have your property tax, and your NPPR paid from a while back.( not sure if the NPPR liability is now gone) Also make sure if you lived in the house that you contact the council to apply for an exception for the time you lived there. This is where your energy bills and bank statements come into play here.


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## Sconeandjam (28 Apr 2022)

Shirazman said:


> Would such a determination affect their credit rating?    If so, then it might be worth doing ............. even if only for spite!


Do not think so. Many tenants can walk away free owing rent.  Pity it is not like England where arrears are taken from their income. Then you still have to go to court to get a determination which costs money.


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## bipped (3 May 2022)

Hypothetical scenario related to a query from the OP earlier in the thread.

Say a tenant has received a termination notice but is overholding and rent is not being paid, similar situation to the OP.
If all the utility bills were in the landlord's name but the landlord can't pay the bills because of not getting any rent, and the services are then cut off, could the tenant lodge a dispute with RTB? What grounds would it be for?

If the tenant has already broken the lease agreement for non payment of rent, is the landlord obliged to keep providing the services?

I guess it's a query about the parties to a contract, ie. if one party is in breach of contract, is the other party legally obliged to continue upholding their side of the contract.


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## Frank (3 May 2022)

bipped said:


> Hypothetical scenario related to a query from the OP earlier in the thread.
> 
> Say a tenant has received a termination notice but is overholding and rent is not being paid, similar situation to the OP.
> If all the utility bills were in the landlord's name but the landlord can't pay the bills because of not getting any rent, and the services are then cut off, could the tenant lodge a dispute with RTB? What grounds would it be for?
> ...


2 problems

1. In what world is LL paying utilities?
2. LL has no right to their own property, RTB will come down on said LL and nail to the wall.


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## Leo (3 May 2022)

bipped said:


> If the tenant has already broken the lease agreement for non payment of rent, is the landlord obliged to keep providing the services?


Actions like changing locks or cutting utilities are not allowed and would likely prolong the problem and increase costs.


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## bipped (3 May 2022)

Frank said:


> 2 problems
> 
> 1. In what world is LL paying utilities?
> 2. LL has no right to their own property, RTB will come down on said LL and nail to the wall.



It was a hypothetical scenario, but having said that, I have heard of rentals where the utilities are in the landlords name so it's not impossible.


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## bipped (3 May 2022)

Thank you Leo for that information. If you could please point me to where I can find that in the RTA I would really appreciate it.


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## Leo (3 May 2022)

bipped said:


> Thank you Leo for that information. If you could please point me to where I can find that in the RTA I would really appreciate it.


It would be an illegal act as in not permitted in the termination procedure outlined. See here for more.


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## Frank (3 May 2022)

bipped said:


> It was a hypothetical scenario, but having said that, I have heard of rentals where the utilities are in the landlords name so it's not impossible.


I get that alright 

I know someone ended up in the LRC and LL got screwed. RTB rep came in 100% anti landlord. 

This is what you are up against RTB is anti LL just taking more money from pockets.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (3 May 2022)

Legalities aside, my limited personal experience is that the RTB's culture is extremely pro-tenant and this kind of action would be adjudicated extremely harshly against the landlord.


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## Purple (5 May 2022)

Frank said:


> I get that alright
> 
> I know someone ended up in the LRC and LL got screwed. RTB rep came in 100% anti landlord.
> 
> This is what you are up against RTB is anti LL just taking more money from pockets.


The RTB is strongly anti Landlord. They will look for a reason to make any situation their fault. It's a good idea badly executed but that's hardly a new thing in this country or anywhere else when it comes to the State delivering services.


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## Baby boomer (5 May 2022)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> Legalities aside, my limited personal experience is that the RTB's culture is extremely pro-tenant and this kind of action would be adjudicated extremely harshly against the landlord.





Purple said:


> The RTB is strongly anti Landlord. They will look for a reason to make any situation their fault. It's a good idea badly executed but that's hardly a new thing in this country or anywhere else when it comes to the State delivering services.


I think the real issue is that the legislation is extremely pro-tenant and anti-landlord.  Probably because of cultural shibboleths deeply ingrained in the national psyche.  The RTB merely implements the legislation.  As far as I can see, it does so fairly.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (5 May 2022)

Baby boomer said:


> The RTB merely implements the legislation. As far as I can see, it does so fairly.


My experience was that it implements the legislation with benefit of the doubt always given to the tenant.

To take the RTB to the High Court would cost a landlord multiples of what he/she would ever get out of it, so these practices continue.


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## Baby boomer (5 May 2022)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> My experience was that it implements the legislation with benefit of the doubt always given to the tenant.
> 
> To take the RTB to the High Court would cost a landlord multiples of what he/she would ever get out of it, so these practices continue.


The Residential Tenancies Act is a piece of civil legislation, and cases arising from it must be proven to the civil standard, ie on the balance of probabilities.  As most of the requirements in the Act impose burdens on landlords, it will be for the landlord to prove that the burden has been complied with.  A good example of this is the very detailed provisions that MUST be followed when issuing a Notice of Termination or a Notice of Rent Review.  

But the basic problem is the Act, rather than its implementation.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (5 May 2022)

Baby boomer said:


> The Residential Tenancies Act is a piece of civil legislation, and cases arising from it must be proven to the civil standard, ie on the balance of probabilities


In my personal experience (once as landlord, once as tenant) a thumb was very firmly on the balance

There are also big issues with the RTA as amended multiple times since 2016, but that is a different issue. But culturally the RTB sees itself as the champion of the tenant from what I can see.


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