# LPG Gas Heating - how to reduce bill?



## Tammy123 (3 Mar 2009)

We have a combination of solar panels and gas to fuel both domestic hot water and underfloor heating system.  Our gas consumption has been huge - not just this cold winter, and the price of gas is just not funny.  We are filling the tank every 6-9 weeks from Oct to May (then the solar kicks in / heating not needed).  

The house is c. 2500 sq ft with zones and thermometers in every room - with high spec insulation, lots of glass (k-glass) and high ceilings.  We have tried having the timer on all the time with therms low (15oC) and tried turning the heating off overnight, but there has been no difference!  
I can see that there could be heat loss through the glass (although its meant to be heat-efficient) and the high ceilings will cost to heat, but would like to hear if anyone has a suggestion as to how we can reduce our annual heating bill.  Or do we need to rip out the LPG gas boiler and install another heating system?


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## Charlie 07 (4 Mar 2009)

Have same problem, would like to hear peoples suggestions!


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## olddog (4 Mar 2009)

In Ireland LPG is the most expensive form of heating that you can select

Even day / night metered electricity should work out less expensive

Have a look at post 36 on thread :

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=102560&highlight=flogas&page=2

(Remember that the electricity prices then were before Bord Gais entered the market and before the reduction that it seems will be made in April.)

Your options include 

Oil boiler
Heat pump
Wood burner

BTW How much are you charged for a litre of LPG ?


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## Charlie 07 (4 Mar 2009)

dont have documents with me but will check this evening when I get home.In cold weather works out at 8-9Euro per day.


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## Tammy123 (4 Mar 2009)

olddog said:


> In Ireland LPG is the most expensive form of heating that you can select
> 
> Even day / night metered electricity should work out less expensive
> 
> ...



Thanks for replying - a full tank costs 900+ euro (think last fill was around 870 at about 10% left in the tank).   

I'm considering a wood burning stove for the room we spend most time in, with a back boiler - at least to supplement the gas - any thoughts on that or the size it would need to be?


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## kenn (4 Mar 2009)

i got a wood burning stove for my living room and it was the best purchase it really heats the room well and only cost €400.
you can also get ones that tie into your existing system but i'm not sure how good/bad they are.


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## Charlie 07 (4 Mar 2009)

last fill was €1036 for 1202 litres. have used half of this since 1st wk of Jan.
How much to switch to oil? Might have soaring oil prices soon thought!
Could we substitute a wood pellet boiler for gas?


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## olddog (6 Mar 2009)

Charlie 07 said:


> last fill was €1036 for 1202 litres. have used half of this since 1st wk of Jan.
> How much to switch to oil? Might have soaring oil prices soon thought!
> Could we substitute a wood pellet boiler for gas?



If that includes VAT then you are buying at 86c/litre ( a better price than I am )

A litre of LPG provides  C 7.1 kWhr

If your boiler is 90% efficient then the heat output from your boiler is C 6.4kWhr per litre

i.e. each kWhr of heat is costing C 13.4c

I'm not sure about oil I guess it is around 60c/litre, each litre provides approx 11kWhr and boiler efficiency probably something like 80%  i.e. a kWhr of heat costs C. 6.8c

Please correct me on the oil figures

Olddog


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## paintpotmen (6 Mar 2009)

Very worrying thread

I was planning on putting in a high efficiency LPG boiler into my new build 3000sqft bungalow- again UFH and high spec insulation. I choose LPG as Natural gas isnt available and I need a boiler that can modulate to suit UFH demands.

I thought the above would be very efficient and I havnt even put in solar (Too expensive),

Wood pellet boiler is too expensive to buy and arkward- I hear very bad reports from plumbers, Oil boilers require alot of service and cant modulate so efficiency goes down.

Could it be that airtightness is making the difference? Room height shouldnt make too much of a difference as with UFH as opposed to Rads the heat rises from the ground.

Im also planing to use MHRV hope this makes a difference 

Anyone any ideas on why a supossedly effiecient set up like UFH, high spec insulation etc isnt performing well?


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## olddog (10 Mar 2009)

I see from

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=92108&page=6

That oil is around 40c per litre at present

Reworking the figures of my previous post the camparative costs would now be :


A litre of LPG provides C 7.1 kWhr

If your boiler is 90% efficient then the heat output from your boiler is C 6.4kWhr per litre

i.e. each kWhr of heat is costing C 13.4c

Oil is around 40c/litre, each litre provides approx 11kWhr and boiler efficiency probably something like 80% i.e. a kWhr of heat costs C. 4.5c





Olddog


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## Charlie 07 (10 Mar 2009)

Got a letter from Flogas saying that due to energy cuts they will be reducing cost of LPG by 3%+VAT.How good of them. 
Going to put some money into improving insulation this summer but still leaves us with basic cost of the gas. Don't know whether to change over to oil/wood pelltes/solar. So paintpotmen i'd re-consider going with LPG, PM me if you want breakdown of costs.


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## DGOBS (12 Mar 2009)

Hi, just a small suggestion, as you are off-mains gas, it maybe cheaper to heat your house with oil!

But, another possible suggestion as you have so efficiently built your house with you underfloor heating / time and temp control, maybe addding in a mechanical heat recovery system would reduce your demand on gas.


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## Charlie 07 (12 Mar 2009)

approx cost for either DGOBS?


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## DGOBS (12 Mar 2009)

Approx (every installation is different) maybe 1500-3000 to change over to oil dependant on ease of boiler siting and tank installation

The heat recovery system I think comes in around the 6000 mark, but would be what I would go for


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## Charlie 07 (13 Mar 2009)

Cheers DGOBS,
not too keen to change to oil as still going down same road there. Will look in to heat recovery system.
Thanks for help


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## KerryG (13 Mar 2009)

I have LPG for past 17 yrs and I have never found it that dear.  My house is obviously 17 yrs old so not sure how great the insulation is, boiler is that age too,on timer for twice a day, longer at weekends, I just paid for a top up last week.  Cost me 525 and  last fill was October, this fill should see me to other side of summer assuming we get a summer!   I have never had to turn my boiler control past 1, I have 12 radiators and I like lots of heat, no fancy valves on any of the radiators.  In fact I have no dryer and use the heaters to dry clothes so they are good and warm.  I do have an open fire as well that I light most evenings and the gas heating goes off at 9.   I would not be using the gas to heat the water in the summer unless it was very cold, use immersion or electric shower when needed.  I have noticed it is dearer this year than normal but usually averages out over the past few years at approx 110 p.m.


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## Charlie 07 (13 Mar 2009)

Not long in the house so can't compare it to previous years.Got €440 in November which lasted us for 6weeks and as stated above €1000 in Jan(Flogas).half of this is gone but obviously with weather improvements we only have it on for 2hrs a day now.have all bar 2 rooms switched off and lowered temps as much as possible.house is c5yrs old/2500sq ft. Got boiler serviced in Jan. Maybe these prices are just normal for size of house.Thanks for info KerryG


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## john_kelly (19 Mar 2009)

OK, here goes

We have 3,050 sq ft with UFL throughout, all external walls drylined, hollowcore to first floor good spec windows, with triple glazing in conservatory.

We have gas boiler, S/S tank etc - all mod con's. Gas for heat, water and gas hob.

Went with Flogas - currently 81.89c per l incl VAT !

Usage is very varied.

Recent cold spell - 1pc of tank per day - 14L or €11.46/day
Recent warm spell - 0.5pc of tank per day - 7L or €5.73/day

Approx half the house heated, the rest, we have the stat's off. Just moved in a month ago, so house may still be drying out.

So, in a nutshell, assuming heat needed for 7 months a year, it will cost us approx €1,830 or 2,234L of gas to heat just over 1,500 sq ft (half the house), plus our hob.

I am of the opinion that in terms of litre usage, this isn't bad, but price from Flogas is a joke.

I really regret putting in the gas, but thankfully, dry lined the extermal walls, which is helping a bit.

John


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## galwaytt (23 Mar 2009)

olddog said:


> In Ireland LPG is the most expensive form of heating that you can select
> 
> Even day / night metered electricity should work out less expensive
> 
> ...


 
Oil boiler - fundamentally inefficient, esp for UFH
Heat Pump - runs on electricity (not cheap), and has big capital cost (unlikely to repay, imho)
Wood Burner - big capital cost, mixed reports on costs to run.


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## kfpg (23 Mar 2009)

Similar to many posters here I have a high efficiency modulating Gas LPG boiler for 2 storey 3000sq ft house with UFH upstairs and downstairs. Also like other posters I have good spec. insulation in walls, floors, roofs etc and good quality windows (large windows to southerly aspects and smaller to the north).

Given that LPG prices per litre are fluctuating quite a lot which none of us can control and everyone's house size is different can everyone perhaps re-post and state their litres of LPG used per annum per square foot, based on as long a period as possible.

Finally their heating control pattern would be the next most interesting thing. I think this type of information is the only way to state this information to make it useful for each other - here goes.

3.2 = number of years of data
3000 = sq foot size of house
3449 = litres of LPG average used per year (9.4 litres per day)
1.15 = litres of LPG per square foot per year

Heating pattern = system entirely off for approx 5 to 6 months, on for 6 to 7 months
6 zones in house = 3 upstairs and 3 down i.e. some rooms on same zone
When heating is on most zones call for 20 degrees heat for approx 2 hours in the morning.
When heating is on most zones call for 20to 21 degrees heat for 3 to 4 hours in the evenings (bedrooms 2 hours).
Hot water is provided and is heated approx 1 hour in the morning by the boiler and 1 hour in the evening. When heating is off for 5 months hot water comes from solar.

Hopefully others can post similar format data. To me the only thing we can all do is play with times, durations and degrees 'C of heat being called for by stats since we cant change the cost of LPG, the size of our house, the bolier, the weather and usually not much about the insulation either!


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## olddog (24 Mar 2009)

The fact of the matter is that in Ireland, heat ( per kWhr ) produced from LPG is several times more expensive that heat produced from oil.

At present, I understand that there are only two suppliers of LPG in Ireland. Both of them charge considerably more ( approx double ) per litre of LPG in Ireland than in England.

It is unlikely that the present pricing regime will change

Unlike Lakeview, I take the view that 'changing the boiler' is something that 'we can do'. I'm involved with one house where the LPG heating has been replaced with heat pump equipment. The heating running cost is now approx 30% of what it would be with LPG. Based on present retail energy costs the installation will be paid for in a little over two heating seasons ( excludes possible savings from using non ESB power or the price reduction due ? next month )

Apart from this saving I'm very glad to see the back of the gas tank. One time I noticed it was leaking ( could smell the gas, a bubble test confirmed significant leak ). The gas supplier ( i.e. tank owner ) eventually sent 'their man' to have a look at it.

I'm not going to post what he suggested should be done - it could be explosive


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## kfpg (24 Mar 2009)

olddog - can you advise others what heat pump equipment you were able to source that can be paid back in 2 heating seasons based on just a 30% differential on running costs from LPG - that seems incredible but fantastic if true?

Do you know how many litres of LPG per square foot per annum you use to use?


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## olddog (25 Mar 2009)

Lakeview said:


> olddog - can you advise others what heat pump equipment you were able to source that can be paid back in 2 heating seasons based on just a 30% differential on running costs from LPG - that seems incredible but fantastic if true?
> 
> Do you know how many litres of LPG per square foot per annum you use to use?



Lakeview,

Dont get to excited, the payback period of 2 years is due to the massive amount of money that used to be shipped out for LPG. 

The setup is an old-ish house, single glazed windows ( lots of drafts ) and an old technology gas boiler. On a 'real winter day' the place would use over Euro50 worth of gas in 24 hrs and still not be warm.

FWIW its Mitsubishi heat pump equipment ( but do a search for another post of mine to see a few comments about Mitsubishi dealers in Ireland ).

One thing that is really nice is that with the day / night meter that is in the house if it is cold the heat can be run all night at a cost of only a few of euros.

Olddog


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## bats (20 May 2009)

Got some thinking to do, I'm just about to set off down the route of LPG condensing boiler & UFH.  Am also including solar panels and multi-fuel stove with back boiler.  Have been quoted 12K for HVAC so that may not happen!

Was looking at getting a Rayburn for cooking and heating/HW, thought that it might not be efficient enough, but LPG is scaring me now!


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## olddog (21 May 2009)

DCC ( owner of Flogas ) issued results  on 19th May 2009

[broken link removed]

Some may note with interest their following comment :

"...................................................... DCC Energy, DCC’s largest division, achieved
exceptional profit growth reflecting the successful integration of a number of acquisitions, a more favourable product cost environment than in recent years and a particularly cold winter.............................."


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## green fly (16 Jun 2010)

Old Dog is on the money, A heat pump can if configured to run exclusivity on night rate can cost as little as under 2cent per KWH. OK now you say I dont want to heat my house only from 11pm to 8 am. But if you have underfloor heating you have storage heating ie what you put in at night is released all day it is for the same reason that when you turned off the gas at night you did not see much of an improvement because the storage aspect meant that the time you supplied the heat was not critical. People who supply oil will tell you that houses with UF heating use more oil this is true, but not because UFH is less efficient (its far more efficient) but because when you use UFH you are heating your house 24/7 even though your boiler may only operate for a fraction of this time. Insulating your home is always good it will reduce the amount of heat you will need there are grants to do this at present. However to seriously reduce your heating bill with least disruption and cost you need to think heat pump preferably water to water if possible. If it is correctly installed the complete ESB bill for a 3500 sqft house incl washing mc kettle tv etc should be below 2k per annum. my average bill for the last 3 years was 1700 per year and I do some welding and turning in my workshop also.


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## green fly (16 Jun 2010)

bats, go with heat pump and forget about the solar u will save the extra for the hp when u drop the solar and u will enjoy lower cost heating with the hp than if u go the way u are talking and with the hp u still meet the part l of the planning requirement. as u are going to have an assist in the multi fuel stove u could even go air to water.


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## galwaytt (17 Jun 2010)

...well, for whatever reason, and I don't know whether it's the equipment, the installation, the commissioning, or whatever -an Architect in Galway told me yesterday that 2 of his clients have removed the GSHP and gone back to oil in the last couple of months alone, because oil is now 'back at the races', cost-wise, and GSHP, isn't.

The whole thing seems very 'variable'........mmmmmm


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## villa 1 (17 Jun 2010)

I would advise any new home developer/builder to insulate their dwelling well, install a fully zoned heating system using oil/gas fired condensing boiler (irish produce) and solar hot water system to avail of the sun went it's shining
Many people are installing heat pumps(GSHP, ASHP), pellet boilers, etc that become very inefficient and break. Parts for some of these appliances also become very hard to source as they have not been manufactured in this country.
There is also the question of payback versus capital spend on mechanical services systems fitted into dwellings that simply don't need them.
Too much looking at the telly
The installation of underfloor heating should be carefully thought out too as to do it properly will need the installation of controls that will break in time and also the dumping of heat when our variable climate necessitates the need to open windows dumping heat on mild winter days.


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