# Are some people using charities as lifestyle choices?



## Kerrigan (14 Nov 2011)

I got chatting to a neighbour the other evening that does a lot of charity work. He was telling me that there were people blatantly using charities as lifestyle choices.

There was a case of a businessman availing of the hand-outs of a well-meaning charitable order while successfully still in operation.

Some foreign nationals seem to have certain charities on speed dial.

And the stories kept coming . . .

As most charities rely on some Government money and the hand-outs of the well-meaning public; should there be a further investigation into the individuals that are in receipt of regular donations or food parcels? 

What I mean is should the charity automatically take somebody's word for it when they say they cannot pay their utility bills? 
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]​


----------



## Complainer (14 Nov 2011)

Do you have any direct experience, or are you relying on 2nd hand information?


----------



## Purple (14 Nov 2011)

Complainer said:


> Do you have any direct experience, or are you relying on 2nd hand information?



My own direct experience of working with two charities that work in Ireland are very different. 
One was very careful about what they spent their money on and how much they gave.
The other, with Vincent in the name, gave to all and sundry. They had a policy of never saying No.
Therefore I don’t think that we can make generalisations about charities and how they spend their money but I would say that yes, there are definitely people who use charities to subsidise relatively comfortable lifestyles instead of working.


----------



## Kerrigan (14 Nov 2011)

I have no direct experience.  Information was got from a reliable source though.


----------



## dereko1969 (14 Nov 2011)

Kerrigan said:


> I got chatting to a neighbour the other evening that does a lot of charity work. He was telling me that there were people blatantly using charities as lifestyle choices.
> 
> There was a case of a businessman availing of the hand-outs of a well-meaning charitable order while successfully still in operation.
> 
> ...


 
Did you have access to their phones?


----------



## DB74 (14 Nov 2011)

I presume the OP is relating what his neighbour told him


----------



## Kerrigan (14 Nov 2011)

DB74 said:


> I presume the OP is relating what his neighbour told him



Exactly.  I wouldn't be repeating random tittle-tattle only this person mixes within charitable circles and we happened to get talking about the economy and one conversation lead to another.  He mentioned no names. 

It's no skin off my nose what people do or what they don't do but I imagine any day now a well known charity will grace our air waves and I just thought to myself maybe these guys should look further into who they are giving food etc too.  Then maybe their resources wouldn't drop so low at the end of the year; after all it is still an area that is not regulated.


----------



## Complainer (14 Nov 2011)

Kerrigan said:


> He mentioned no names.


This always worries me. If he is confident of his facts, why wouldn't he mention names?


----------



## Kerrigan (14 Nov 2011)

The names of the charities were mentioned but the names of the businessman and others that were in receipt of donations were obviously not named.

Don't get me wrong - the charities are doing nothing wrong.  All they are doing is giving a helping hand.  

All I'm saying is maybe they check things out a bit more.  Whatever resources they have that are being wasted on 'suppossedly' people that are not as needy as others.  I'm by know means saying every Tom , Dick and Harry is spinning them a yarn.


----------



## Leo (14 Nov 2011)

Have you contacted the charities involved? They are in a much better position to answer your query than the general AAM membership.


----------



## Kerrigan (14 Nov 2011)

Hi Leo, no I haven't but I will put pen to paper and see what they response is.


----------



## T McGibney (14 Nov 2011)

In the current climate its not that outlandish for a 'businessman' to be in such severe financial difficulties so as to require help from a charity to feed themselves and their families. There are plenty of people in that bracket at the moment.


----------



## ontour (14 Nov 2011)

I have come across cases where people have an expectation of getting help from charities because a friend did or they did last year.  These people are by no means wealthy but they still have the Sky Sports subscription and need help with the fuel bill.

I also came across cases where one family member had an addiction problem.  It is a tough call to see someone in the pub every night but give help because the children need food / clothes etc.

At the end of the day you have to accept that there are people who take advantage of other peoples good nature.  There are many people who desperately need the help who are very embarrassed about their situation.  To not offend the genuine people, few questions are asked but this also allows the less deserving access to the supports.


----------



## Knuttell (14 Nov 2011)

ontour said:


> There are many people who desperately need the help who are very embarrassed about their situation.  *To not offend the genuine people, few questions are asked but this also allows the less deserving access to the supports.*



That in a nutshell is why I don't give a cent to SVDP,when I make a charitable contribution I expect it to be given to people who actually need it as opposed to those who blatantly do not.

If they chose to be politically correct and dare not ask a few simple questions to  sort the needy from the chancers then that's their business but they wont be doing it with my money.


----------



## Guest105 (14 Nov 2011)

Is it true then that St Vincent De Paul give money and goods to every one who asks for them regadless of income or means?? Somehow I don't think this can be feasable especially in the current economic climate, even their funds must be running very low at this stage.


----------



## Complainer (14 Nov 2011)

Based on this lady's experience [broken link removed] SVdP are far from being an easy touch, to the extent that she is now considering suicide to be a 'viable option'.



ontour said:


> I have come across cases where people have an expectation of getting help from charities because a friend did or they did last year.  These people are by no means wealthy but they still have the Sky Sports subscription and need help with the fuel bill.
> 
> I also came across cases where one family member had an addiction problem.  It is a tough call to see someone in the pub every night but give help because the children need food / clothes etc.


These are indeed difficult cases, and I'm not sure what the solution is. AFAIK, some charities address this by giving vouchers or groceries rather than cash, which is probably part of the solution.




Kerrigan said:


> The names of the charities were mentioned but the names of the businessman and others that were in receipt of donations were obviously not named.


Why 'obviously not named'? I don't understand this coyness. If there is a real problem there, why not get it up on the table for all to see?



Kerrigan said:


> All I'm saying is maybe they check things out a bit more.  Whatever resources they have that are being wasted on 'suppossedly' people that are not as needy as others.  I'm by know means saying every Tom , Dick and Harry is spinning them a yarn.


I don't have much direct involvement in this area, but here's my read on it. The chances that established charities like SVdP have anything to learn from somebody who heard a bit of neighbourhood tittle-tattle is tiny. If the apparently unworthy recipients of charity are not names, they have no way of investigating further.

At a guess, these very large and very well established organisations know a thing or two about their end users. At a guess, the people who work for or volunteer with these charities are not fools. 



Kerrigan said:


> Hi Leo, no I haven't but I will put pen to paper and see what they response is.


If all you have is gossip and no facts, I'd really suggest you don't bother. I'd also really hope they don't waste their time on a wild goose chase. I'd far prefer them to be focusing on their core business than justifying themselves to a neighbourhood gossip.


----------



## Kerrigan (14 Nov 2011)

Hi Complainer, if we take the neighbour and his gossip out of the equation and read the above posts, there are comments by posters who have worked in charities and have vouched that this has happened.  

That article is heartbreaking.  You wouldn't wish your worst enemy to go through the heartache that lady is going through.  I will admit It obviously puts a question mark on my argument to some extent . . .


----------



## ontour (14 Nov 2011)

Complainer said:


> Based on this lady's experience [broken link removed] SVdP are far from being an easy touch, to the extent that she is now considering suicide to be a 'viable option'.



It is a sad story and makes me wonder why family and friends don't assist.

Is €250 a week what a jobseeker with more than one child would receive in lone parents, jobseekers, child benefit etc?   How much is council rent?  Is there any published analysis of the cost of the most basic living in Ireland?  If not €250 a week, how much?

The OP's point was that there are people taking advantage of charities and I don't think that article proves that all claims are legitimate.  With many charitable organisations that have a presence in the community, there is huge variance in the criteria applied.  This may be due to the individuals involved locally but also to do with varying gaps between demand for help and funds in a given area.


----------



## Knuttell (14 Nov 2011)

Kerrigan said:


> there are comments by posters who have worked in charities and have vouched that this has happened.



My opinion on SVDP has *not* been formed on this thread,this is a well known problem that SVDP have...the inability to distinguish between worthy individuals and feckless chancers.

When I make a donation it is to Barnardos or to Trocaire.

I may not have much choice on how the Govt waste my tax contribution but I have control over to whom I make such donations.


----------



## micmclo (15 Nov 2011)

Knuttell said:


> When I make a donation it is to Barnardos or to Trocaire.



I know the argument about needing good salaries so you get competant people to manage charities.
Even with the paycuts I wonder how much of your donation ever makes it to the person who it is intended for?


> In spite of the increase in monies raised, a spokeswoman for Barnardos confirmed yesterday that the charity introduced voluntary pay cuts for its 400 staff last year.
> The accounts do not disclose the salary of the charity’s chief executive Fergus Finlay. However, the filings for 2009 show one staff member received between €110,000 and €120,000, and four others between €100,000 and €110,000. Following the cuts, no staff member receives in excess of €110,000, while three are paid in excess of €100,000.
> 
> There was a 5 per cent pay cut on the first €30,000 of salary; 7.5 per cent on the next €40,000 and 10 per cent of any amount over that.



400 staff need to be paid before a cent gets used

I also have heard the stories about SVDP and helping chancers, the common story of no money for food but money for sky sports but the people on the ground are volunteers.
Maybe SVDP are loaded down with salaried administrators but I've not heard of it and I think more of the money would get where it's supposed to go


----------



## ontour (15 Nov 2011)

micmclo said:


> 400 staff need to be paid before a cent gets used



I am fairly sure that most of the 400 workers are related to services provided for children and not administration of the charity.  As Barnardos provides a service rather than direct or indirect financial assistance to parents it is less likely to be abused.

Barnardos do spend about €2.2m for fundraising activities.  They raise €6.3m from general colections with the rest from statutory funding or foundations / legacies etc.  There would appear to be a fair chunk of the money collected from the public going in to glossy adverts.


----------



## Purple (15 Nov 2011)

Charities have costs just like any other organisation or business. You can't expect people to work for nothing so their full time staff have to be paid. I don't see that as being a major issue. The question is how to they distribute their funds. 
From what I have seen and heard first hand I would never give money to SVDP. I do support the Merchants Quay Project and a couple of homeless charities as well as a few charities concerned with overseas work but not the Vinnie De Paul.


----------



## Complainer (15 Nov 2011)

ontour said:


> There would appear to be a fair chunk of the money collected from the public going in to glossy adverts.


Which in turn lead to more money coming in as donations, presumably?



Knuttell said:


> My opinion on SVDP has *not* been formed on this thread,this is a well known problem that SVDP have...the inability to distinguish between worthy individuals and feckless chancers.


I'm always a bit dubious about 'well known problems' - it's just a bit too Joe Duffy or Adrian Kennedy for me.



Kerrigan said:


> Hi Complainer, if we take the neighbour and his gossip out of the equation and read the above posts, there are comments by posters who have worked in charities and have vouched that this has happened.


Here's a mad suggestion. Go volunteer for SVdP for six months, and then you can see exactly how things work on the ground.


----------



## Purple (15 Nov 2011)

Complainer said:


> Here's a mad suggestion. Go volunteer for SVdP for six months, and then you can see exactly how things work on the ground.



That's how I formed my opinion of them though it was a few years back so things might have changed since.


----------



## ontour (15 Nov 2011)

Complainer said:


> Which in turn lead to more money coming in as donations, presumably?



Given your expertise, how much is acceptable to spend to make donations.  Is it OK for a charity to spend 80c to get a donation of €1 ?  That is 20c potentially going to a good cause but would the donator be happy that so much is going to the expense of collecting?


----------



## shnaek (15 Nov 2011)

Got to say I am very deliberate about the charities I fund. I've had personal experience with a charity mentioned in this post, and I haven't supported them since. I don't want to mention the charity or the incident, but I believe people should research their supported charities, rather than firing money at a random charity and believing their charitable conscience can now rest easy. We owe it to ourselves and to those in need to make sure that funds get into deserving hands and not the hands of wasters or criminals.


----------



## micmclo (15 Nov 2011)

Maybe just me but I'd rather go local then national or even international.

Lots of towns have a hospice or other worthy cause.

And if they do something like get an extension or new equipment you can even show up to the unveiling 
Doesn't have to be a hospice, just giving a typical example for a town in Ireland. A Lyons club might be another example and serves your area 

The local causes don't have the big brand or advertising but a few minutes on google will get you aware on what's going on in your area


----------



## Complainer (15 Nov 2011)

ontour said:


> Given your expertise, how much is acceptable to spend to make donations.  Is it OK for a charity to spend 80c to get a donation of €1 ?  That is 20c potentially going to a good cause but would the donator be happy that so much is going to the expense of collecting?



I have very little expertise in this area.

I understand and appreciate your concern, but the same logic applies to buying Persil or buying Nike. Is the buyer happy that 30%-50% of the sticker price goes towards advertising?


----------



## ontour (15 Nov 2011)

Complainer said:


> I understand and appreciate your concern, but the same logic applies to buying Persil or buying Nike. Is the buyer happy that 30%-50% of the sticker price goes towards advertising?



After I pay for the Persil, I don't really care what they do with the money, I have my washing powder and they have my money.  I buy in to the marketing, brand recognition etc. and am paying a premium for that.

It is what the charity does with my money after I donate it that matters.  The charity says they need my money for disadvantaged children and I am happy to donate.  If I find out later that 30% went to the person who collected from me and 30% went to advertising, I would not feel that a sufficient % of the money went to the purpose for which they solicited it.

I think that the best thing that people donate is time. While certain charities may be imperfect in their distribution of financial assistance their volunteers do an amazing job at reaching out to those who are isolated or alone.


----------



## Complainer (15 Nov 2011)

ontour said:


> After I pay for the Persil, I don't really care what they do with the money, I have my washing powder and they have my money.  I buy in to the marketing, brand recognition etc. and am paying a premium for that.


Indeed, it is a personal choice. The fact remains that many of us pay for large amounts of advertising in much of our daily spending.



ontour said:


> It is what the charity does with my money after I donate it that matters.  The charity says they need my money for disadvantaged children and I am happy to donate.  If I find out later that 30% went to the person who collected from me and 30% went to advertising, I would not feel that a sufficient % of the money went to the purpose for which they solicited it.


It is indeed a matter of personal choice. It also depending what way you look at it. Is it better for the charity to spend 100% of €10k on providing services, or to spend 60% of €100k on providing services, having spent the other €40k on advertising? Do you want them to be providing €10k of services with no advertising, or €60k of services with advertising?



ontour said:


> I think that the best thing that people donate is time. While certain charities may be imperfect in their distribution of financial assistance their volunteers do an amazing job at reaching out to those who are isolated or alone.


Fully agree.


----------



## Purple (15 Nov 2011)

ontour said:


> I think that the best thing that people donate is time. While certain charities may be imperfect in their distribution of financial assistance their volunteers do an amazing job at reaching out to those who are isolated or alone.


Big +1 to that. While I’d question where and how some charities spend their money I’d never criticise those that give of their time to help others.


----------



## onq (15 Nov 2011)

Kerrigan said:


> I got chatting to a neighbour the other evening that does a lot of charity work. He was telling me that there were people blatantly using charities as lifestyle choices.


Very disturbing to read of this - this is the opposite end of the spectrum to banks not passing on interest rates - terrible if true.


> There was a case of a businessman availing of the hand-outs of a well-meaning charitable order while successfully still in operation.
> 
> Some foreign nationals seem to have certain charities on speed dial.
> 
> ...


I think before you get intrusive you have to make a basic assessment of means looking at external evidence of income.
I'm not even going to get into monthly spending assessments.
Can they afford a foreign holiday each year?


> What I mean is should the charity automatically take somebody's word for it when they say they cannot pay their utility bills?


Yes, for the nonce, because otherwise really needy people may avoid coming to charities out of pride.
But an assessment of skulduggery can occur over time as noted above.
I'm sure other posters can list other parmeters which could be addressed.
I list foreign holidays as opposed to running two cars because winning business in the private sector can require transport and the battle of the car park can be decisive in some business minds.
That having been said, there are not a few people wobbling around town on bicycles with an air of moral superiority and physical fitness about them which may signal a sea change in relation to this attitude...


----------



## Complainer (15 Nov 2011)

onq said:


> Can they afford a foreign holiday each year?


Just for the record, many foreign holidays are cheaper than equivalent Irish holidays!


----------



## onq (15 Nov 2011)

Ummm ... suggested yardstick?


----------



## Knuttell (15 Nov 2011)

Complainer said:


> Just for the record, many foreign holidays are cheaper than equivalent Irish holidays!



In fairness,If you are at the point where you genuinely need charitable assistance then there should be no talk of holidays...foreign or domestic.


----------



## ali (17 Nov 2011)

> I think that this is one of the admirable things about SVDP: it's not an 'inability' to make distinctions, but their generosity towards those that ask for their help, whatever their circumstances. I can see how this mightn't be how everyone wants their charitable donation used, but some charities by choice take a deep breath and 'judge not.'



I know of someone close who received direct help from the SVDP. It happened 3 years ago this Christmas. The woman in her late 30's has a lovely house in South Dublin with 2 cars in the drive and all the trappings of a comfortable lifestyle. She told me how an elderly man called up to her house one evening before Christmas in a battered micra and delivered an envelope containing €200 cash and €200 in Tesco vouchers. He didn't ask questions or query the beautiful home and candles and decorations. He just said I'm from the Saint Vincent de Paul and wished her a happy Christmas.

In effect this woman was penniless. Redundancy, arrears and bills piling up on her and one morning in desperation she had phoned the SVDP more for guidance than in the expectation of receiving something. She still tears up at the unconditional nature of this giving. She only told me about it this month (she is in better circumstances now and never wanted to advertise her lowest ebb) and she still gets emotional about it. She was always the one with the direct debit to concern or whatever and never thought she would be in the situation. I know her very well and never guessed. 

I think you have to balance the chancers with the genuinely needy and shouldn't assume that using charity as a lifestyle choice applies to people who on the surface look well off.

A.


----------



## blueband (17 Nov 2011)

well said ali. you cannot judge a book by its cover, or  person by how they look.


----------



## Knuttell (17 Nov 2011)

ali said:


> I know of someone close who received direct help from the SVDP. It happened 3 years ago this Christmas. The woman in her late 30's has a *lovely house in South Dublin with 2 cars in the drive and all the trappings of a comfortable lifestyle.* She told me how an elderly man called up to her house one evening before Christmas in a battered micra and delivered an envelope containing €200 cash and €200 in Tesco vouchers. He didn't ask questions or query the beautiful home and candles and decorations. He just said I'm from the Saint Vincent de Paul and wished her a happy Christmas.



Could she not have sold one if not both the cars in the drive,settled outstanding finance if any and use that money to tide her over?


----------



## Lex Foutish (17 Nov 2011)

Purple said:


> My own direct experience of working with two charities that work in Ireland are very different.
> One was very careful about what they spent their money on and how much they gave.
> The other, with Vincent in the name, gave to all and sundry. They had a policy of never saying No.
> Therefore I don’t think that we can make generalisations about charities and how they spend their money but I would say that yes, there are definitely people who use charities to subsidise relatively comfortable lifestyles instead of working.


 
Mrs. Foutish absolutely refuses to contribute or donate anything to V de P. Too many stories of free loaders and those not in need sponging off them. She donates everything to Simon. Homelessness of Irish people breaks her heart!



micmclo said:


> I know the argument about needing good salaries so you get competant people to manage charities.
> Even with the paycuts I wonder how much of your donation ever makes it to the person who it is intended for?
> 
> 
> ...


 
I could never donate anything to Barnardos. I cannot abide Fergus Finlay. Every time I see him, I see a Labour spin doctor, a man who was able to spin to suit whatever his agenda was at the time. 

Leopards don't change their spots..............


----------



## Purple (18 Nov 2011)

Lex Foutish said:


> Mrs. Foutish absolutely refuses to contribute or donate anything to V de P. Too many stories of free loaders and those not in need sponging off them. She donates everything to Simon. Homelessness of Irish people breaks her heart!


 Yes, The Simon Community do great work.





Lex Foutish said:


> I could never donate anything to Barnardos. I cannot abide Fergus Finlay. Every time I see him, I see a Labour spin doctor, a man who was able to spin to suit whatever his agenda was at the time.
> 
> Leopards don't change their spots..............


 I think that’s unfair. I find Finlay to be arrogant and he exudes that smug moral superiority common in rich socialists but I do think his motives are genuine. I also think he’s a very capable person and he’s a major asset to Bernardo’s.


----------



## johnd (18 Nov 2011)

Knuttell said:


> Could she not have sold one if not both the cars in the drive,settled outstanding finance if any and use that money to tide her over?



My first thought too -


----------



## Lex Foutish (19 Nov 2011)

Purple said:


> *I think that’s unfair*. I find Finlay to be arrogant and he exudes that smug moral superiority common in rich socialists but I do think his motives are genuine. I also think he’s a very capable person and he’s a major asset to Bernardo’s.


 
You're probably right that I'm being unfair with my comment. I just can't stand the guy!


----------



## Yorrick (19 Nov 2011)

I had a family member who worked very hard for the St. V de P. But one Christmas when delivering hampers to a home of one of  " the most vunerable in society " he discovered the household were all off to Liverpool on St. Stephens Day for a Premiership match with an overnight iin a Liverpool hotel throw in.
That put an end to his "charity" work


----------



## ontour (19 Nov 2011)

Yorrick said:


> That put an end to his "charity" work



How many houses had your family member visited where the hamper was the hamper was the difference between that family having a Christmas and not having a Christmas?

Best thing to do is to pass the information back to the local conference so that they don't make the same mistake again.

Some people have the attitude that if the SVP wants to give them a hamper, why would they refuse.  They don't see the logic of telling the SVP that they do not need it.


----------



## micmclo (20 Nov 2011)

Maybe SVP are too big, a national brand and while they have volunteers on the ground they don't know what's going on in the area

Most towns have a Lions club. I only ever hear about them for Christmas but at least your money/food/toys go locally and the organizers know your area


----------



## Complainer (21 Nov 2011)

Lex Foutish said:


> Mrs. Foutish absolutely refuses to contribute or donate anything to V de P. Too many stories of free loaders and those not in need sponging off them. She donates everything to Simon. Homelessness of Irish people breaks her heart!



Has she tried asking Simon why they have a separate well-paid Director for each of their eight autonomous and independent local organisations; http://www.simon.ie/?

Honestly, I know next to nothing about Simon, but someone made this comment in passing a few weeks ago in a different context. 




Lex Foutish said:


> I could never donate anything to Barnardos. I cannot abide Fergus Finlay. Every time I see him, I see a Labour spin doctor, a man who was able to spin to suit whatever his agenda was at the time.
> .


It's your own choice of course - but there is no logic there. I'd bet the Communications Manager of Dublin Simon community was well able to spin his/her agendas in her past jobs as well. Does that make Simon unworthy?


----------



## Firefly (22 Nov 2011)

Lex Foutish said:


> Mrs. Foutish absolutely refuses to contribute or donate anything to V de P. Too many stories of free loaders and those not in need sponging off them.



Lex, I am noting a little bit of angst in your recent posts. Bring back the old Lex!. Perhaps a trip to the holy land for a pint & sambo are called for Sir?


----------



## Purple (22 Nov 2011)

ontour said:


> How many houses had your family member visited where the hamper was the hamper was the difference between that family having a Christmas and not having a Christmas?
> 
> Best thing to do is to pass the information back to the local conference so that they don't make the same mistake again.
> 
> Some people have the attitude that if the SVP wants to give them a hamper, why would they refuse.  They don't see the logic of telling the SVP that they do not need it.



I colleague in work who lives in Ballymun tried to give it back one year and also pointed out that his neighbours didn’t need hampers either. He spent 10 minutes arguing with the SVP guy at his door before slamming said door in his face. When he went out later the hamper was at his door. He called the VDP and told them to come and collect it. They didn’t bother so left it outside his house and it was stolen that night.


----------



## johnd (22 Nov 2011)

Purple said:


> I colleague in work who lives in Ballymun tried to give it back one year and also pointed out that his neighbours didn’t need hampers either. He spent 10 minutes arguing with the SVP guy at his door before slamming said door in his face. When he went out later the hamper was at his door. He called the VDP and told them to come and collect it. They didn’t bother so left it outside his house and it was stolen that night.



I understood (from their ads) that they helped people who actually contacted them for help? I wasn't aware that they decided who needed hampers/help and took it upon themselves to delived that help. Ian O'doherty had an article in 2008/9 on SVDP and Christmas hampers - he was surprised to discover that in some cases the Christmas hamper was an envelope of cash!


----------



## Complainer (3 Dec 2011)

Update on charities in turmoil;

[broken link removed]


----------

