# Tax return on rental income if loss made ?



## Fredser (2 Oct 2006)

Hi Folks,

I have prepared my profit/loss summary for rental income I received last year and have arrived at a _loss._

Do I need to send this profit/loss account along with the tax return or just fill in the relevant section on the tax return?

Thanks in advance

Fredser


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## bazermc (2 Oct 2006)

Fredser said:


> Hi Folks,
> 
> I have prepared my profit/loss summary for rental income I received last year and have arrived at a _loss._
> 
> ...


 
No you just send in the return with the completed rental income section.  Do not send the profit/loss summary but do keep it for your own records on file.  You can carry the loss forward to next year or whenever a rental profit arises for offset


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## Fredser (2 Oct 2006)

Thanks for that bazermc ...

One other thing : I am a PAYE employee so am I right in assuming that I only need to fill in the rental income section of the return and don't have to fill in the employee earnings section on this form?

Cheers again

Fredser


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## bazermc (2 Oct 2006)

Fredser said:


> Thanks for that bazermc ...
> 
> One other thing : I am a PAYE employee so am I right in assuming that I only need to fill in the rental income section of the return and don't have to fill in the employee earnings section on this form?
> 
> ...


 
Yes, you need to complete the full form including Gross PAYE income along with the amount of PAYE deducted, you may have overpaid PAYE and therefore due a refund.  Also you may be claiming relief for medical expenses bin charges etc and Revenue will need to see what your gross income was.


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## geri (3 Oct 2006)

Fredser
As a matter of interest, what TAX return Form are you using?
Ger.


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## Fredser (3 Oct 2006)

geri said:


> Fredser
> As a matter of interest, what TAX return Form are you using?
> Ger.



Was planning on using [FONT=&quot]http://www.revenue.ie/forms/form12.pdf ... unless anybody knows any different ???????

Fredser
[/FONT]


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## geri (3 Oct 2006)

Fredser said:


> Was planning on using [FONT=&quot]http://www.revenue.ie/forms/form12.pdf ... unless anybody knows any different ???????[/FONT]
> 
> [FONT=&quot]Fredser[/FONT]


 
The reason I ask is that the Revenue are insisting that I submit a Form 11, even though I am PAYE and the net rental is less that 3175.  My Tax Accountant is querying this with them though.


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## Fredser (3 Oct 2006)

geri said:


> The reason I ask is that the Revenue are insisting that I submit a Form 11, even though I am PAYE and the net rental is less that 3175. My Tax Accountant is querying this with them though.



Hi Ger

Have heard of Form 11 but am unclear as to the difference between the 2 forms.

Keep me updated if you can with what happens with your accountant ...

Cheers

Fredser


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## bazermc (4 Oct 2006)

Fredser said:


> Hi Ger
> 
> Have heard of Form 11 but am unclear as to the difference between the 2 forms.
> 
> ...


 
Form 11 is more geared towards a self employed person whereas the form 12 is for PAYE workers, as you will note the form 12 is a lot shorter.  Really it does not matter a damm what you use as long as you make a correct tax return its the contents that matter


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## liteweight (4 Oct 2006)

bazermc said:


> Yes, you need to complete the full form including Gross PAYE income along with the amount of PAYE deducted, you may have overpaid PAYE and therefore due a refund.  Also you may be claiming relief for medical expenses bin charges etc and Revenue will need to see what your gross income was.



I didn't think Revenue would refund PAYE because you made a loss on rental? Thought the two were unconnected? Have I misread the above?


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## asdfg (4 Oct 2006)

You do not get a refund when a loss is calc. The loss can be written off against any other rental income in Ireland or carried forward and written off against a profit when a profit is made.

See [broken link removed] for rental income in general and "What if a loss is made" in particular


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## bazermc (4 Oct 2006)

liteweight said:


> I didn't think Revenue would refund PAYE because you made a loss on rental? Thought the two were unconnected? Have I misread the above?


 
Yes you have misread the above or maybe I was not clear enough they are not connected.  A rental loss can only be used to shelter a rental income.  But there could be a refund due for other reasons such as the payroll department taking too much tax - that does happen


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## asdfg (5 Oct 2006)

Just to clarify, a rental loss from another country cannot be offset against a rental profit made in ireland or visa versa. There are 2 seperate heading in the return See link above and in particular 
How is the tax due on rental income collected?
How are foreign rents taxed?


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## bazermc (5 Oct 2006)

asdfg said:


> Just to clarify, a rental loss from another country cannot be offset against a rental profit made in ireland or visa versa. There are 2 seperate heading in the return See link above and in particular
> How is the tax due on rental income collected?
> How are foreign rents taxed?


 
Correct, a rental loss from say France cannot be used against an Irish rental profit or vica versa.
I dont understand your question on how tax on rental income is collected you make a return and pay the tax!!!! 

Foreign rents are primarily subject to local taxes under the local tax rules assuming there is a double taxation agreement in place.  If the individual is resident in Ireland then a irish liability will also arise on the amount of taxable income less a credit for foreign tax paid relief under the DTA, please note the credit cannot exceed the amount of irish tax due.


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## asdfg (5 Oct 2006)

> See link above *and in particular*
> How is the tax due on rental income collected?
> How are foreign rents taxed?


 
I was referring to the link in my previous post and pointing those interested in this particular subject to have a look *in particular* at "How is the tax due on rental income collected?" and "How are foreign rents taxed?"



> Foreign rents are primarily subject to local taxes under the local tax rules assuming there is a double taxation agreement in place.


 
Foreign taxes have to be paid even if there is no double taxation agreement in place
The DTA can only be used to deduct tax paid in a foreign country from your irish liability. 
AFAIA turkey still does not have a DTA with Ireland and tax has to be paid in both countries.
Also, France's DTA does not cover CGT so if you sell a property in france you have to pay tax on the sale in france and again in ireland and you can't offset the tax paid in france against the tax paid in Ireland. The DTA is currently being negotiated and is expect to be completed shortly (these things move slowly).  



> If the individual is resident in Ireland then a irish liability will also arise on the amount of taxable income less a credit for foreign tax paid relief under the DTA


 
Again to clarify if the individual is resident in Ireland then an irish liability will also arise on the amount of taxable income *calculated according to irish taxation rules* (which will be different from tax on rental income abroad) less a credit for foreign tax paid relief under the DTA. 

The taxable income is calculated as though the foreign property is an irish property and tax is paid at your marginal rate in ireland probably 42% plus 2% health levy less a credit for foreign tax paid relief under the DTA.


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## asdfg (6 Oct 2006)

If your only source of income is PAYE and small sources from investment property, second job etc then forward details to Revenue. 

If you have any other sources, dividends etc as detailed on the form you should be returning Form12  anyway


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