# Deposit for children's party venue not refundable



## Tim Robbins (5 Jun 2019)

HI,
We book a venue for a kids party 4.5 weeks in advance.  We paid a deposit of 100 euro.
We rang back two days later to cancel but were told deposit was non-refundable.  The best they could do was give voucher.  We were a bit shocked since, we had given four weeks notice and we were never told deposit was non - refundable. 

Any advice appreciated?


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## peemac (5 Jun 2019)

A deposit is non refundable unless mentioned otherwise. 

You entered into a contract. The deposit secured the date and closed off those spaces to others. 

I think they are being very fair in allowing you use it against another booking.


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## Easeler (5 Jun 2019)

I probably would have the party there but only use up the 100 euros worth  i certainly wouldn't be spending another penny there make sure you bring your own biscuits and tell the kids take a good look at the place because they won't be seeing it again.


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## peemac (5 Jun 2019)

galwaypat said:


> I probably would have the party there but only use up the 100 euros worth  i certainly wouldn't be spending another penny there make sure you bring your own biscuits and tell the kids take a good look at the place because they won't be seeing it again.


Why? What do you think a deposit is for? 

What would you do if the center decided to cancel for no reason? 

The center is fully entitled to keep the deposit and provide nothing. Instead they are being fair and allowing it against another booking 

But yet you think that they should be "punished" for being decent?


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## Easeler (5 Jun 2019)

Well I think he gave them plenty notice.


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## peemac (5 Jun 2019)

galwaypat said:


> Well I think he gave them plenty notice.


And if the play center cancelled using that excuse, would you think that's OK too? 

If someone is unsure about making a booking for something, then ask for a provisional hold for a few days. But once a deposit is paid, a contract is formed and it is to protect BOTH parties.


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## Easeler (5 Jun 2019)

Anything can happen when you have kids involved very hard to plan anything in my opinion. Yes they have a buissnes to run but I think they were a bit hard on the OP on this occasion.


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## mathepac (5 Jun 2019)

@Tim Robbins did you a) visit the venue or b) pay a deposit by card over the phone?

Did you get a receipt with printed T&Cs?

If you visited the venue were there any signs on display about deposits or did anyone say deposits were non-refundable?

If you used the phone to make the booking, did anyone say deposits were non-refundable? (oral contracts are enforceable contracts)

I think the venue are acting unreasonably and probably illegally by not providing you with a full refund; unreasonably as they still had four full weeks to re-sell the slot they reserved for you and illegally as Citizens Information says that while a contract was created when you paid over your deposit, it seems the terms of the contract were not made clear to you.

For the sake of a poxy (to them) €100 they're creating a PR nightmare for themselves. You will no doubt discuss your dissatisfaction with all your friends and ,maybe, just maybe use their FB / your FB / Trip Advisor / other review sites to tell your story.  Yet another example of the  gombeen-man mentality in Irish retail, an outfit treating their customers with contempt, just because they can.





__





						Your rights as a consumer in Ireland
					

Irish and EU laws give you strong consumer rights when you buy a product or service. Find out about your rights and what to do if things go wrong.




					www.citizensinformation.ie


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## Gordon Gekko (6 Jun 2019)

Crazy stuff. The business has behaved decently but people seem only too keen to put the boot in.


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## Leo (6 Jun 2019)

mathepac said:


> I think the venue are acting unreasonably and probably illegally by not providing you with a full refund



They're perfectly within their rights not to refund the deposit, unless you think one party can unilaterally walk away from a binding contract? Even the link you provided confirms the same!


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## mathepac (6 Jun 2019)

The link most certainly does nothing of the kind. The key condition in a consumer contract is that the "*Terms in consumer contracts must always be fair and clear to the consumer.*"  Unless the OP can confirm that the venue explained to him orally or in writing that deposits were not refundable then he is entitled to a full refund and not just a credit-note. It really is that simple, the link is crystal clear on that point. 

A reasonable person would conclude that retention of the deposit also fails the fairness test A fair arrangement regarding deposits is the old-fashioned time-related sliding scale, regarding cancellation, e.g.

28 days or more from event, 100% refund
21 days  from event, 75% refund
14 days from event 50% refund
7  days from event, 25% refund
otherwise 0% refund.


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## mathepac (6 Jun 2019)

Gordon Gekko said:


> Crazy stuff. The business has behaved decently but people seem only too keen to put the boot in.


The consumer information link I provided indicates otherwise. Why the anti-consumer bias?


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## Gordon Gekko (6 Jun 2019)

mathepac said:


> The consumer information link I provided indicates otherwise. Why the anti-consumer bias?



No it doesn’t.


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## mathepac (6 Jun 2019)

"Terms in consumer contracts must always be fair and clear to the consumer." Please show where and how the terms in the OP's contract with the venue meet the criteria of clarity  and fairness. Absent specific terms, written or oral, the contract fails the tests. The link states that some undefined terms may be implicit; the link fails to state which terms are implicit but is very specific on clarity and fairness. 

Again, why the anti-consumer bias in light of the evidence that the business is clearly in the wrong?


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## Leo (6 Jun 2019)

mathepac said:


> The link most certainly does nothing of the kind. The key condition in a consumer contract is that the "*Terms in consumer contracts must always be fair and clear to the consumer.*"



It does:



> If you pay a deposit to a supplier who, in return, holds an article for you and you change your mind about paying the balance the supplier may not in all these circumstances be obliged to return your deposit.



A reservation was made and subsequently cancelled. The OP is seeking to withdraw from a contract, there is no obligation on the supplier to return the deposit. 

There is nothing inherently unfair to the consumer in a deposit being non-refundable. Non-refundable deposits are the norm across most sectors. The very purpose of a deposit is to demonstrate a commitment to follow through on the contract, if deposits were to be assumed to always be refundable, why would businesses bother with the administrative overheads at all? It would only add costs for no benefit.

There is no suggestion here that the business in questions purported to offer deposit refunds in the event of a cancellation. It is only if they had done so that a refusal could be considered unfair. 

A more pertinent section of the material you linked is: 



> When you pay a deposit for goods a contract is created between you as a consumer, and the supplier of the product or service. You should be clear at the time of paying a deposit what your obligations are (e.g. when you need to pay the balance, how much each payment is etc).



There is nothing anti-consumer in pointing out a consumer's obligations upon entering a contract. Indeed the consumer service here is in trying to better educate consumers to ask the right questions before entering into contracts. Many of the issues we see here would never arise if more people did so.


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## mathepac (6 Jun 2019)

> There is nothing anti-consumer in pointing out a consumer's obligations upon entering a contract.


I'm not suggesting for one minute that there is, but in this case that didn't happen. Explaining the T&Cs after the event is not enough.


> "Terms in consumer contracts must always be fair and clear to the consumer."


Where and when were the terms of the contract explained to the OP and where and when did the OP agree to such terms? Based on the information supplied neither of these pre-conditions to a binding consumer contract were met.

Your references all highlight contracts for the purchase of goods which might involve expenditure by the retailer to get the products into their stockroom. The only expenditure by the retailer in this case was an entry in the desk diary for the date and time in question. (If they're really high-tech they might even have stuck a PostIt on the page with the relevant information with a copy of the deposit receipt).

I suggest the OP writes to the venue requesting a cash/credit-card refund highlighting the failure by the retailer to establish a contract with the consumer where the T&Cs were clear. If it were me and the venue failed to respond favourably, I'd be perfectly willing to test this in small claims court, something the OP should not be afraid to do. Maybe the OP might first contact citizens information for an opinion that the retailer might have a case to answer  http://centres.citizensinformation.ie

The other alternative is the one I suggested earlier, post honest feedback via online routes or deliver it by word of mouth locally and then let the market decide who was right and who was wrong.


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## MangoJoe (6 Jun 2019)

I can see both sides here.... But even then I've never, ever handed over a deposit without fully expecting to lose every cent if I for any reason cannot keep my side of the bargain......

It obviously would be morally wrong if the management in any setting would seek to pocket the deposit money in the full knowledge that another party will book into the same slot shortly.... But then again in this case they did offer the deposit back as credit.....


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## LS400 (6 Jun 2019)

mathepac said:


> I suggest the OP writes to the venue requesting a cash/credit-card refund highlighting the failure by the retailer to establish a contract with the consumer where the T&Cs were clear. If it were me and the venue failed to respond favourably, I'd be perfectly willing to test this in small claims court, something the OP should not be afraid to do. Maybe the OP might first contact citizens information for an opinion that the retailer might have a case to answer



You know, its this sort of mentality which effects lot of good companies...
Make them responsible for your lack of basic understanding.  

Write to them, tell them you will take it further, mention how clever you are on Fb,
Make someone else pay for the fact you moved the goal posts. 

They offered you something in return which they were not obliged to.. and now the clever cloggs come out and look to pick holes in something so acceptable to all. You pay a deposit, and they agree to provide you with a service. You change you mind, its not my fault, its yours. I didnt understand.. 

Of course they will pay you back, they dont need the hassle. One up for the man in the street...


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## odyssey06 (6 Jun 2019)

LS400 said:


> You know, its this sort of mentality which effects lot of good companies...
> Make them responsible for your lack of basic understanding.



If the company hasn't gone to any expense yet as a result of a cancelled booking, and there is ample time for them to fill the slot, then what they are doing is ensuring they have zero repeat business there from the customer.
"Once you have their money never give it back" even if you don't have to return the money doesn't meet my standard of 'good company'.

If they can say, well, when we took your booking we already ordered X, or turned down another booking for the date, fair enough.


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## Leo (6 Jun 2019)

mathepac said:


> I'm not suggesting for one minute that there is, but in this case that didn't happen. Explaining the T&Cs after the event is not enough.



The legislation is clear on this, the obligation is on the consumer to inform themselves of such terms and conditions in advance, the supplier is obliged to make such terms and conditions available, but is not obliged to go through them in details if they are not asked to do so. Lack of awareness is no defence after the fact, that has been well tested.



mathepac said:


> Based on the information supplied neither of these pre-conditions to a binding consumer contract were met.



The OP states they agreed to reserve the facility (that satisfies the agreement element), they paid a deposit (satisfying the consideration element), and both parties intended on honouring the agreement (satisfying the intention element). There are no other pre-conditions required in contract law.


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## peemac (6 Jun 2019)

A person should assume that a deposit is non-refundable unless stated otherwise. You should not require terms and conditions to tell you something as basic as that.

From CPCC 
*If I change my mind about buying the item or service, can I get my deposit back?*
The obligations of the contract work both ways so the business doesn’t have to return your deposit if you change your mind. For example, if you paid a deposit to a shop to hold an item for you and you later decide you don’t want the item, the shop may not be obliged to refund you your deposit. 


Next thing is people will be expecting instructions on how to use a swing!


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## Bronte (6 Jun 2019)

odyssey06 said:


> If the company hasn't gone to any expense yet as a result of a cancelled booking, and there is ample time for them to fill the slot, then what they are doing is ensuring they have zero repeat business there from the customer.
> "Once you have their money never give it back" even if you don't have to return the money doesn't meet my standard of 'good company'.
> 
> If they can say, well, when we took your booking we already ordered X, or turned down another booking for the date, fair enough.


No business can operate like that. It's totally unworkable. Here's the terms and conditions for accommodation I booked recently:

*The person who make the booking must be over 21 years old and accepts these conditions on behalf of all member of the party and is responsible for all payments due for the reservation.  By submitting a booking you confirm to us that you have read the Terms and Conditions and agree to comply with them
1. A deposit payment is required to confirm a booking.  The booking deposit is non-refundable.   If the booking is made within 6 weeks of the date of arrival then full payment is required immediately.  Booking confirmation together with directions and other relevant information will be sent by e-mail or by post.  Where an initial deposit is paid, the balance must be paid within 8 weeks of the holiday commencement date.  If the balance is not paid within 7 days of the due date we will assume the booking has been cancelled by the client.
 2. If you need to cancel your holiday, or a part thereof, please notify us immediately.  A refund of 75% of the balance payment can be made if we can re-let the property for that period.  If a cancellation of your holiday, or a part thereof, is made within 4 weeks of the holiday commencement date, no refund will be made. .​*

I think all of that is perfectly reasonable.​
I've also booked a holiday in France.  Which is in about a months time, I can get zero back if I don't go. All paid upfront at this stage.  

There is no point to a booking system if you have to give back the deposits every time as then nobody would treat deposits as something serious. Which is entirely the point of a booking deposit.  Otherwise it's not a booking deposit.


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## Bronte (6 Jun 2019)

mathepac said:


> I'm not suggesting for one minute that there is, but in this case that didn't happen. Explaining the T&Cs after the event is not enough.
> 
> Where and when were the terms of the contract explained to the OP and where and when did the OP agree to such terms? Based on the information supplied neither of these pre-conditions to a binding consumer contract were met.



This is pretty basic stuff Mathepac. How much explaination of T&C's does an adult paying a deposit need.  

Do you think the French company I've booked and paid my holiday with are wrong if they charge me 100 % if I cancel my holiday within 7 days of it beginning? In other words I'd get no refund. And this despite the fact they may let the accommodation to somebody else?

Do you and others think Ryanair should refund me my flight cost if I tell them six months in advance I won't be flying?


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## Monbretia (6 Jun 2019)

peemac said:


> Next thing is people will be expecting instructions on how to use a swing!



I was just going to say similar, how much hand holding do people really need!    They did well to get a voucher


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## odyssey06 (6 Jun 2019)

Bronte said:


> This is pretty basic stuff Mathepac. How much explaination of T&C's does an adult paying a deposit need.
> Do you think the French company I've booked and paid my holiday with are wrong if they charge me 100 % if I cancel my holiday within 7 days of it beginning? In other words I'd get no refund. And this despite the fact they may let the accommodation to somebody else?
> Do you and others think Ryanair should refund me my flight cost if I tell them six months in advance I won't be flying?



I didn't say they were wrong. I said it wasn't good customer service.

I think there's a massive difference between cancelling within 48 hours of booking, for an event 1 month away, and cancelling within 7 days of an event.
In your case it was all very clearly spelled out in advance, so again the situation is not comparable.

People would be more likely to book if they had a cooling off period... you can cancel an Amazon order without charge once the order hasn't been picked, for example.


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## Bronte (6 Jun 2019)

odyssey06 said:


> I didn't say they were wrong. I said it wasn't good customer service.
> 
> I think there's a massive difference between cancelling within 48 hours of booking, for an event 1 month away, and cancelling within 7 days of an event.
> 
> People would be more likely to book if they had a cooling off period... you can cancel an Amazon order without charge once the order hasn't been picked, for example.


So I used the example of Ryanair and cancelling 6 months in advance.  

What you and others are doing is using a very good example of customer service, Amazon.  But the truth is Amazon has economies of scale.  And fantastic computer systems. So it costs them zero to offer such a cancellation policy.  It's part of their concept.  And it works.  

I ordered for the first time an item of clothing online last month (first and last time I hope - ) Great customer service. I was impressed.  And I ordered three items knowing two would go back. (it was a particular issue not relevant to this discussion).  But to my amazement I have something like a month to send the items back.  I reckon that's a psychological thing.  That you then forget to return it as you've so much time.


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## Leo (6 Jun 2019)

Bronte said:


> But to my amazement I have something like a month to send the items back. I reckon that's a psychological thing. That you then forget to return it as you've so much time.



Online protection is much stronger in that you have the right to return goods within 14 days of receipt, but as you say, extending that to a month can result in fewer returns.


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## Gordon Gekko (7 Jun 2019)

Think about it another way. On Monday I pay a €100 deposit for a child’s party and send out the invites. On Tuesday someone calls the playcentre and offers to hire out the entire place. If the playcentre gave me the old heave ho, the people giving out in this thread would be the same people crying foul.

By offering credit, the provider did the right thing, end of story.


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## mathepac (7 Jun 2019)

Leo said:


> There are no other pre-conditions required in contract law.


Apart  from the elephant in the room no-one will discuss. "Terms in consumer contracts must always be fair and clear to the consumer." and of course this part this didn't happen "the supplier is obliged to make such terms and conditions available".


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## mathepac (7 Jun 2019)

Gordon Gekko said:


> On Monday I pay a €100 deposit for a child’s party and send out the invites. On Tuesday someone calls the playcentre and offers to hire out the entire place. If the playcentre gave me the old heave ho, the people giving out in this thread would be the same people crying foul.


and if my aunt had different plumbing she'd be my uncle. It isn't clear to me why you and other contributors want to discuss the OP's uncle when the issue to hand is with his aunt.

Apart from the elephant in the room no-one will discuss. "Terms in consumer contracts must always be fair and clear to the consumer." and of course this part didn't happen "the supplier is obliged to make such terms and conditions available".


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## Gordon Gekko (7 Jun 2019)

The same people ranting and raving about consumer rights would be going apoplectic if the business had contacted the OP and said “we’re really sorry, here’s your deposit back, you can’t actually have that time/date”.


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## odyssey06 (7 Jun 2019)

Gordon Gekko said:


> The same people ranting and raving about consumer rights would be going apoplectic if the business had contacted the OP and said “we’re really sorry, here’s your deposit back, you can’t actually have that time/date”.



I didn't see any ranting, raving or apoplexy in the thread? I don't know why you need to categorise peope concerned about consumer rights, or the prons and cons of the situation as ranting and raving.


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## Bronte (7 Jun 2019)

Cancellation policy aka normal business transactions:

1. Dublin Zoo 
What is Dublin Zoo’s cancellation policy for birthday parties?
Dublin Zoo has a no refund cancellation policy. Your booking is transferable within 2 months of the date of your event, subject to availability.

What happens if it rains?
Dublin Zoo is predominately an outdoor venue. We advise visitors to dress for the weather. Parties will not be cancelled in the event of rain or bad weather.

2. Party company http://littlelaughs.ie/about/faq-and-tips/

13Booking deposits – we require a €50 booking deposit, this can be sent by bank transfer or bank draft.
14Cancellation policy – there is a €30 cancelation policy for up to 24 hours prior to the day of the party for all packages except for Teepee Slumber Party Package. 
and for that Teepee thing
What is your cancellation policy – No cancellation granted within 7 days of booking.


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## Leo (7 Jun 2019)

mathepac said:


> Apart  from the elephant in the room no-one will discuss. "Terms in consumer contracts must always be fair and clear to the consumer."



What elephant? It is absolutely fair that a business may withhold a deposit, that is a well established right under contract and consumer legislation.



mathepac said:


> and of course this part this didn't happen "the supplier is obliged to make such terms and conditions available".



You seem very sure of that point, but unless you were present, it's just a massive leap on your part. Without knowing the business, only the OP is in a position to tell whether they have their terms & conditions listed on their website, or available on request on the premises. Either of those options satisfies their obligation in this regard. This one in particular has been well tested with cases taken against some of the communications providers. The outcomes there make it clear the onus is on the consumer to seek out and fully understand the terms and conditions prior to handing over their money.

OP, perhaps you could clarify whether you asked to see the T&Cs or whether they are listed on the business website?


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## mathepac (7 Jun 2019)

mathepac said:


> Did you get a receipt with printed T&Cs?
> 
> If you visited the venue were there any signs on display about deposits or did anyone say deposits were non-refundable?
> 
> If you used the phone to make the booking, did anyone say deposits were non-refundable? (oral contracts are enforceable contracts)


My first post on the topic was an attempt to establish if the venue's T&Cs were available to the OP in advance in order to try and establish if, as citizens information states, the terms in this particular consumer contract were  fair and clear to the consumer.  In the absence of a response, I'm working with the initial information provided.


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## mathepac (7 Jun 2019)

Bronte said:


> This is pretty basic stuff Mathepac. How much explaination of T&C's does an adult paying a deposit need.


The tests about T&Cs in consumer contracts are:

Were they available to the consumer?
Were they clear to the consumer?
Were they fair to the consumer?
In the multiple examples you quote where they were available, you made (or could make) your own decisions about clarity and fairness. No reasonable person* can apply  scenarios about *known* T&Cs to situations where they seem to have been unknown to the OP and therefore not clear and, in the OP's case, patently unfair.

*the man on the Clapham omnibus


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## Leo (7 Jun 2019)

mathepac said:


> I'm working with the initial information provided.



Fair enough, you're assuming the OP asked for the T&Cs but did not get them or were somehow fobbed off, which may well have happened. I'm assuming they didn't ask and didn't look up the website.


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## mathepac (7 Jun 2019)

In the absence of information to the contrary from the OP, I'm assuming they weren't available and thus weren't clear and they aren't fair, not by any stretch of the imagination. Putting words in my key-board won't work


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## Leo (7 Jun 2019)

mathepac said:


> In the absence of information to the contrary from the OP, I'm assuming they weren't available



It is reasonable to assume that had to OP failed to obtain a copy of the T&Cs after asking for them, they might have mentioned that. It would put their case in a whole different light.  

*OP*, if you want to come back and clarify, please do, otherwise, let's leave this here as some of the misinformation to date really serves no one.


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## newtothis (7 Jun 2019)

Bronte said:


> This is pretty basic stuff Mathepac. How much explaination of T&C's does an adult paying a deposit need.


About the same as a grown adult needs telling how to use a swing?


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