# Romanian beggars



## Sunster (8 Jun 2007)

Just wondering. Working in town I see many Romanian women begging with their children. Always seems to be the same group of them scattered about town. Does anyone know if these women are actually homeless?


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## Gabriel (8 Jun 2007)

Regardless of their housing status they should not be allowed beg.


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## z108 (8 Jun 2007)

*Re: Roma* beggars*

I strongly believe anyone who uses a child for begging purposes is corrupting a minor, perpetuating the culture of begging and should be locked up. 
Its' a fairly common sight to see children (who should be in school) sitting begging at ATM machines (e.g AIB) while their relatives are rattling collection tins aggressively in the faces of tourists on the other end of Grafton Street.
I'm generally in favor of the benefits of multiculturism and immigration (which is another issue entirely) and it bothers me to see tourists who are our guests hassled when they visit to see our city and should be enjoying themselves. I dont think anyone should be allowed into the country if their only activity is begging and they dont integrate with our culture and civilised society.


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## Amygdala (8 Jun 2007)

Romanians or Roma? There is a difference I think.


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## shanegl (8 Jun 2007)

Aye, very big difference.


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## Protocol (8 Jun 2007)

Yesterday, in Sligo town, two young men approached my car while I was in a traffic queue.

They were washing windscreens, and then asking for money.

I suppose it's better than begging, as they do provide a service.


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## shesells (8 Jun 2007)

AFAIK many of the ones around Dublin are not homeless. About 20 of them used to live in a Lucan estate in houses provided by the health board. Not sure if they still do, my friend moved from the estate.

I NEVER EVER give them money, you perpetuate a bad cycle.


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## Amygdala (9 Jun 2007)

Before we start tarring a nation let us know we are talking about! Lets remember our own travelling community and the dreadful decision in silgo .Also do those Irish who went before us to other countries represent the more “sophicated and discerning” that reside in this lovely Island today!


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## Protocol (9 Jun 2007)

What dreadful decision in Sligo?


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## Protocol (9 Jun 2007)

I have lived in Sligo eight years and the "travelling community" don't seem to have added much to the society/town.

Perhaps I'm wrong.  To prove me wrong, I'd like to see their P60s to show me their contributions to the State's tax revenues.

Alas, I fear no joy on that account.


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## Protocol (9 Jun 2007)

Also, there now are "Roma" or "Romanian" people in Sligo, not begging, but requesting funds via the Big Issue.

Hmmmm.

Begging in disguise??

Maybe, maybe not.

I'd love to see a traveller's P60!!


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## z108 (9 Jun 2007)

Amygdala said:


> Before we start tarring a nation let us know we are talking about!



With regard to begging on the streets in Ireland I believe the previous posters do know the subject they are writing about.
Most people realise that Roma gypsies do not represent the whole of Romania. I know quite a few 'sophisticated and discerning' Romanians who are very well educated, who do not beg for a living and who remind me that a Romanian invented the jet engine.  





Amygdala said:


> Lets remember our own travelling community and the dreadful decision in silgo



What has happened in Sligo which would make aggressive begging or the grooming of children into a culture of begging any less wrong ? The law should apply to everyone equally. I believe our social problems should be reduced not increased. And the tool to do this is government policy.
You mention Sligo as though there is a hidden justification within the 'Sligo story' for Roma or other ethnic begging and I do not understand that.




Amygdala said:


> Also do those Irish who went before us to other countries represent the more “sophicated and discerning” that reside in this lovely Island today!



I've never claimed to be sophisticated or discerning. However you'll find many Irish who emigrated were quite sophisticated intellectually for example James Joyce.
However my idea of a 'sophisticated'  society is a society in which this begging problem does not happen. And I think those in charge should be 'discerning' enough to put a stop to the abuse and grooming into forced begging labour of children who should be in school no matter which ethnicity or origins they are from.

The thread should not be diverted into one of racism. Thankfully immigration appears to be successful from my point of view and the number of people entering the country with no intention to integrate or contribute to our society is very small and hence there is very little racism in Irish society.
However I have also observed from other countries experiences that a small number of people who do not contribute could possibly have  a disproportionate effect on sentiment towards  immigration .
You mention the fact of Irish historical emigration as though there is a hidden justification within the 'Irish historical emigration' story for Roma or other ethnic begging and I do not understand that.


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## brodiebabe (10 Jun 2007)

shesells said:


> About 20 of them used to live in a Lucan estate in houses provided by the health board. Not sure if they still do, my friend moved from the estate.


 

Did your friend assume this?  Or did she know for a fact, if so how did she know?


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## Caveat (10 Jun 2007)

brodiebabe said:


> Did your friend assume this? Or did she know for a fact, if so how did she know?


 
_...exactly_

There is an unbelievable amount of chinese whispering, gossip and downright lies about this sort of thing - and of course it's not the issue anyway. Thousands of people of all nationalities, _*mostly Irish,*_ 'work the system' if that's what is being suggested.

The issue is one of a society that allows begging - full stop. Whether that's a failure to address a subculture that justifies it, a failure to legislate, or a failure to act appropriately at street level - it's a failure of the state.


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## z108 (10 Jun 2007)

*Re: Roma* beggars*



brodiebabe said:


> Did your friend assume this?  Or did she know for a fact, if so how did she know?



She appears to know because she was their neighbour. Knowing any more would require further investigation.

But the issue is more than begging (gangs specifically formed to beg) or someones  right to have their own ethnic identity. This is also about the tragic abuse of children. 

The continual sight of children who should be in school being sent to beg on the streets while their relatives are around the corner counting the loot is wrong to me on so many levels. I  have witnessed the kids being given a clip around the ear for not handing over enough loot.
I've seen  a man who appears to be a father/guardian (not by my standards) sitting down 6 kids around the side of Brown Thomas and splitting them up to various patches.

Why does it bother me? Its a part of city centre living which affects me daily as I live under 10 minutes walk from Grafton Street and do my shopping there.
Just try convincing any average Irish person that this isnt wrong.
This is not my idea of ethnic diversity and I dont see any benefits to the country  of having them here as long as their culture promotes this. Its wrong, undesirable and it should be stopped.
We cant change the world alone but we can change the part within our borders for the better.


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## shesells (10 Jun 2007)

As stated, my friend knew because she WAS a neighbour..she actually left the estate because of trouble with them. She would see these same people begging on the streets of the city centre.

Of course the Roma aren't representative of all of Romania, I think the problem is that a lot more people encounter the Roma than know other Romanians so it's a bit like saying all travellers are trouble, tarring everyone with the same brush - it's an opinion formed on your exposure to the community.

My big problem with any beggars are those who use children as props. This is not restricted to the Roma but they are serious culprits.


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## PM1234 (11 Jun 2007)

sign said:


> The continual sight of children who should be in school being sent to beg on the streets while their relatives are around the corner counting the loot is wrong to me on so many levels. I have witnessed the kids being given a clip around the ear for not handing over enough loot.
> I've seen a man who appears to be a father/guardian (not by my standards) sitting down 6 kids around the side of Brown Thomas and splitting them up to various patches.


 
Using children as pawns is commonly used throughout Dublin and possibly Ireland by Irish people. Children are picked up from their homes and dropped off at different locations. I'm unsure what percentage the children (or perhaps parents) receive but a friend who was heavily involved with the homeless informed me about it. 

TBH I still don't know if its right/wrong to give them something walking by. On the one hand its encouraging the 'organisers' to continue but on the other hand I wouldn't like to think what would happen if they return without any money and like everything in life there are always some genuine people.


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## michaelm (11 Jun 2007)

Sunster said:


> Just wondering. Working in town I see many Romanian women begging with their children. Always seems to be the same group of them scattered about town. Does anyone know if these women are actually homeless?


Roma women with children call to houses in my estate periodically begging.  They usually say then need money to buy nappies or food for the baby, and I'm think that the Community Welfare Officer will resolve such issues.  In any case, when I offer them nappies they are not interested as they only want cash.  These people are housed in the locality by the local authority.  No other group or nationality call to my house begging.


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## orka (11 Jun 2007)

I would be interested in knowing the reply to the original question too - does anyone living in Ireland today NEED to beg in order to have sufficient food, shelter and clothing?  I have got increasingly hard-hearted and assume that any beggars are just out for extra money (whether for themselves or the men/parents/guardians who them up to it) - I assume that our welfare system is generous enough that no-one needs to beg.  I think as previous posters have pointed out there are pimp-type people organising beggars and having children undoubtedly increases the sympathy factor - as does any physical handicap - I dont know if anyone is familiar with her but I cant imagine the one-legged girl who begs at traffic lights around Dublin actually wants to be out doing that - and every time I see her I do get the guilty feelings of 'does she actually need the money' - because if I genuinely thought she did and it would make her life more comfortable, I would give her something but i just cant escape the nagging doubt that she is driven to these place by some able-bodied man who then takes all her money.


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## Firefly (11 Jun 2007)

If an Irish woman begged on the street with her toddler, her child would be taked off her and put into care.


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## Dowee (11 Jun 2007)

Firefly said:


> If an Irish woman begged on the street with her toddler, her child would be taked off her and put into care.



I've seen many Irish women with their kids begging on the streets in Dublin.


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## z108 (11 Jun 2007)

*Re: Roma* beggars*

I still dont understand why anyone gets away with such brazen, open shameless abuse and exploitation of children on our streets. 

I'm hardly an investigative journalist and if I can observe all this on my way to Marks and Spencers or Dunnes (or beloved Aldi/Lidl) surely this proves the people who orchestrate and perpetuate this are totally unafraid of the law.

These children if uneducated in a trade or in morals will in all probability grow up to  live off the state for the rest of their lives and cost society a fortune both in monetary and in human terms.

They might claim to be persecuted back home in Romania (and of course persecution of anyone is wrong) but its obvious to see how this could happen to those who use children as props because this behaviour is the exact opposite of that necessary to integrate into either society. No matter which country they live in they need to change from unlawful behaviour and I believe the government should force them to change by cracking down on the use of children as props.
I do not understand why non citizens who are behaving legally, have children here and are working and contributing to society get deported yet other non citizens who break the law so flagrantly do not.



To answer Orkas question below


orka said:


> I would be interested in knowing the reply to the original question too - does anyone living in Ireland today NEED to beg in order to have sufficient food, shelter and clothing?



There is a homeless shelter/ drop in point in Temple Bar where you can get a three course meal for 60 cents  to a euro. The city has a few locations like this. Mostly our indigenous homeless are on drugs or alcoholics and spend most of their money on addictive substances but the gypsy thing appears to be a deliberately chosen lifestyle/culture choice to me while I doubt anyone chooses to be an alcoholic.  
Now do you think in the context of a well balanced dinner for a euro anyone would starve on 185.80 euro per week Jobseekers allowance plus rent allowance plus medical card + childrens allowance ?  Someone with malnutrition can also get prescription shakes and vitamins using the medical card.
Have you noticed there are more homeless people on the streets when summer time arrives ?  The health board will pay for a bed and breakfast so even the issue of a bed for the night seems open to question.


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## pinkyBear (11 Jun 2007)

Has anyone had Roma children come to your door - collecting money for a school for the deaf? We had one recently and the form she gave me was obviously photocopied, the same little girl came to the house begging - she had a note saying her mum had a baby to feed - I had some growing up milk in the house which I gave her - and she started giving out - begging for money!


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## auto320 (11 Jun 2007)

Just on a point of information, from my own experience of talking to many of the Roma women who beg in Dublin, most of the ones I have spoken to are Albanian. Not that this takes from the original question.......!


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## Trafford (12 Jun 2007)

pinkyBear said:


> Has anyone had Roma children come to your door - collecting money for a school for the deaf? We had one recently and the form she gave me was obviously photocopied, the same little girl came to the house begging - she had a note saying her mum had a baby to feed - I had some growing up milk in the house which I gave her - and she started giving out - begging for money!


 
Yes, I have given them (the adults) food in the past too! They leave disgusted with me!


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## Marie M (12 Jun 2007)

auto320 said:


> Just on a point of information, from my own experience of talking to many of the Roma women who beg in Dublin, most of the ones I have spoken to are Albanian. Not that this takes from the original question.......!


 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roma_gypsies


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## tinkerbell (14 Jun 2007)

Good point.  These gypsies are not just solely from Romania and are very very different to the many decent true Romanian people who come here to work and work hard.  From my understanding no country is proud of their gypsy population for the reasons outlined earlier.  I saw a middle aged gypsy lady begging outside our local chuch.  Later I saw her walk about five minutes up the road to be collected in a lovely new mercedes by I presume a family member or friend.  Not sure what the setup was but somehow I didn't get the impression she really needed to beg, maybe more a lifestyle thing?


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## shesells (14 Jun 2007)

Or part of a scam - she is effectively being pimped. This is a very common practice, I'm originally from a small town and for the last 6 or 7 yearsRoma kids would be dropped at one end of the town from a new 4x4 and picked up at the other end before hitting the next town. This happens at least once a year.


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## Raskolnikov (16 Jun 2007)

What is the legal situation with the Roma people in Ireland anyway? Are they illegals? Have they been known to sleep homeless? Are they're treated as asylum seekers? Is there a charity that people can donate to, rather than have to give money/aid to potentially unscrupulous types?

I don't think anyone wants to see people go wanting in this country, but, at the same time it's reasonable to expect we're not being scammed.


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## Persius (16 Jun 2007)

Raskolnikov said:


> What is the legal situation with the Roma people in Ireland anyway? Are they illegals? ... Are they're treated as asylum seekers? ...


 
It depends on their nationality. As referenced previously, Roma have been living throughout continental Europe for centuries. They are traditionally mostly found in Eastern Europe, but there are also traditional Roma communities as far west as Spain and Portugal. All this means that they will have citizenship of the country where they traditionally lived.

So Roma from Romania or Bulgaria are entitled to enter Ireland without visas since 1 Jan 2007, when these countries joined the EU. They have right of residence here. However citizens of these two states have no automatic entitlement to work here, and also AFAIK have no entitlements to social welfare here. 

Roma from Slovakia, Poland, Hungary etc have been allowed here since May 2005, and are also allowed to work here should they so desire. AFAIK, IF they have built up enough PRSI contributions here, they are then entitled to social welfare payments. But they can't just arrive here and try to claim social welfare.

As membership of the EU requires that basic human rights be respected, I believe EU citizens are for all practical purposes disbarred from claiming asylum in another EU country. However some Romanian Roma have succeeded in claiming asylum, or at least lodging asylum claims, before 2007 when Romania joined the EU. I do not know how such pending asylum claims are treated. Logically the asylum should be refused, social welfare payments stopped. But the person can't be deported as they're now EU citizens and entitled to reside here.

If the Roma here are from Albania, or ex-Yugoslavia (apart from Slovenia), then they've no automatic right of residence. However they could claim asylum. Whether they're successful is another matter, but until the case is decided, they are entitled to stay here and receive welfare. Another possibility is that they entered on false or stolen Romanian passports. In the case of a passport stolen from a Romanian Roma, I'm sure an Irish boarder guard couldn't tell the difference.

All in all, it's pretty complex.


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## SarahMc (16 Jun 2007)

From 


Steps to take if you encounter a child begging


[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Treat the child with kindness, courtesy and respect[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]If you can, offer them some food or a hot drink[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Talk to a Garda on the street, phone the local Garda station, Health Board or[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Contact the *ISPCC* Leanbh service on 01 6447712.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Recognise that the child who begs is a child in need, with the same rights as any other child[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Raise the issue of child begging with your local representative or community activist group. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]


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## z108 (16 Jun 2007)

Nice site in many ways but Ill quote below:



> Identifies and works with parents, carers and children in a therapeutic way to encourage a better understanding of children’s needs and re-enforcing to parents the unacceptability of using children to beg.



I think 'unacceptability' is too kind a word for it . 'Illegality' is a much better word. If it is a parent who is behind this illegality then that makes it exponentially worse.
My view is *Lock the pimps up and throw away the key.* Thats how you begin to reinforce the illegality of grooming children to beg when they are supposed to be in school. Thats the kind of 'therapy' the pimping parents need.


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## ajapale (16 Jun 2007)

LOS is for discussing current affairs, sports etc._ Please try to keep it rational/polite though._


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