# New speed limit for Dublin city centre



## MANTO (1 Feb 2010)

Commuters in Dublin are facing a new 30km/h speed limit in the city centre today.

Dublin City Council says the decision was taken because dangerous and inappropriate speed is contributing to road fatalities.

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Surely there must be another reason beind this decision - not that you can do more then 30 most of the time anyway!


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## liaconn (1 Feb 2010)

It does seem a bit strange. Most accidents which happen as a result of speeding do not occur in the City Centre (where, as you say, it is very difficult to speed anyway) but on motorways, country roads and, to a lesser degree, suburban streets.


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## z104 (1 Feb 2010)

It might also be there to discouarge poeple from driving in the city centre. I slowed down to 30km today and it was painfully slow.


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## galleyslave (1 Feb 2010)

if dangerous and inappropriate speed is the issue, then I guess drivers are ignoring the existing limits. Reducing them won't make a whit of difference. The solution would be enforecement. Then again, since when did common sense ever have a say in the matter


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## moneyhoney (1 Feb 2010)

Niallers said:


> It might also be there to discouarge poeple from driving in the city centre. I slowed down to 30km today and it was painfully slow.



Well as a pedestrian & cyclist in Dublin city centre, I welcome the new speed limit. I live and work within the confines of the new speed limits. Traffic often travels way too fast in Dublin city centre. For example, along the north quays, often causing cars to run red lights (I actually don't think some of them could stop they're going so fast). And when cycling, the slower the traffic is going the better, as it makes it safer for everyone to manouver. 

Just my tuppence worth! 

(Worth noting 30kph has been in place on some streets for some time. Heard some guy on radio this morning saying this was just to stop drunks getting hit on O'Connell st when in fact it's been in place there for some time.)


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## liaconn (1 Feb 2010)

I've no problem with the new speed limit but it should go hand and hand with stricter rules regarding jaywalking. O'Connell Street and College Green are particularly bad with pedestrians just wandering out in front of cars and weaving their way through moving lines of traffic. It can be really scary sometimes. As for people who push the buggy out first .........


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## carpedeum (1 Feb 2010)

I have driven twice this morning in Dublin City Centre. Traffic was light so it was very difficult to keep to 18mph. Cars were undertaking and overtaking. Pedestrians were darting out between the slower vehicles. We also encountered two cyclists cycling the wrong way up one-way streets! Will it be enforced fairly? I doubt it. A law that cannot be enforced is bad law. As someone who walks in the city quite a lot every day due to my business and who feels quite safe doing so, enforcing jay walking would be more effective in saving pedestrians.

This Councillor Montague is just another minor politician taking advantage of our weak leglislative and government systems that allow minorities to dictate their agendas to the majority whether through the city council or government coalition.


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## Complainer (1 Feb 2010)

carpedeum said:


> This Councillor Montague is just another minor politician taking advantage of our weak leglislative and government systems that allow minorities to dictate their agendas to the majority whether through the city council or government coalition.


Sorry to burst your bubble, but Cllr Montague's party is in the largest party on Dublin City Council.


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## Purple (1 Feb 2010)

I cycle in the city centre the odd time. As 18MPH is so slow I hope I don't get done for breaking the speed limit while on my bicycle...


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## carpedeum (1 Feb 2010)

Complainer said:


> Sorry to burst your bubble, but Cllr Montague's party is in the largest party on Dublin City Council.



Yep.... You've got me Complainer. Hands held up. My grumpy Monday morning rant!


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## gabsdot (1 Feb 2010)

I tried driving at 30kph earlier and it's not easy. I don't often go in to the city but this will discourage me from bothering


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## Leo (1 Feb 2010)

liaconn said:


> I've no problem with the new speed limit but it should go hand and hand with stricter rules regarding jaywalking.


 
Stricter rules would imply there are some currently. Jaywalking is not an offence under Irish law.


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## bond-007 (1 Feb 2010)

This is simply a licence to print money in these hard times.

The GATSO van was on Essex Quay this morning. There was another load of Gardaí over by the Four Courts.


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## Caveat (1 Feb 2010)

Purple said:


> I cycle in the city centre the odd time. As 18MPH is so slow I hope I don't get done for breaking the speed limit while on my bicycle...


 
Good point - I suppose theoretically you could be done?

Although I've never heard of anyone being done for speeding on a bicycle before - and it has always been within the realms of possibility to break  previous limits I would have thought.


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## Lex Foutish (1 Feb 2010)

carpedeum said:


> *I have driven twice this morning in Dublin City Centre. Traffic was light so it was very difficult to keep to 18mph. Cars were undertaking and overtaking. Pedestrians were darting out between the slower vehicles. We also encountered two cyclists cycling the wrong way up one-way streets! Will it be enforced fairly? I doubt it. A law that cannot be enforced is bad law.* As someone who walks in the city quite a lot every day due to my business and who feels quite safe doing so, enforcing jay walking would be more effective in saving pedestrians.
> 
> This Councillor Montague is just another minor politician taking advantage of our weak leglislative and government systems that allow minorities to dictate their agendas to the majority whether through the city council or government coalition.


 
I had to do about an hour of driving around Cork city this morning while the new limit was being discussed on radio. It struck me that maybe the cops should pay more attention to some cyclists instead. In that time this morning, I deliberately looked out for cyclists going through red lights and counted five. I presume some cyclists behave the same way in Dublin.

The new law sounds a little daft, to me.


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## Markjbloggs (1 Feb 2010)

Lex Foutish said:


> I had to do about an hour of driving around Cork city this morning while the new limit was being discussed on radio. It struck me that maybe the cops should pay more attention to some cyclists instead. In that time this morning, I deliberately looked out for cyclists going through red lights and counted five. I presume some cyclists behave the same way in Dublin.
> 
> The new law sounds a little daft, to me.



Funny, I was driving in Dublin this morning and observed many cyclists ignoring traffic laws, in one case a pedestrian was nearly hit.

Daft law, driven by inappropriate use of data, as described by the AA.  Need a lot more scrutiny of cyclist behaviour, but that will never happen until the Greens are buried in the next election.


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## boaber (1 Feb 2010)

Leo said:


> Stricter rules would imply there are some currently. Jaywalking is not an offence under Irish law.



Might not be called Jaywalking, but there is legislation for pedestrians.  

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/si/0182.html#zzsi182y1997a46

As for enforcement of this law.........


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## RonanC (2 Feb 2010)

Jaywalking is an American term

This is our "law" 

46(2) *A pedestrian* facing a traffic light lamp which shows a *red light* *shall not proceed beyond that light*.


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## Firefly (2 Feb 2010)

RonanC said:


> Jaywalking is an American term
> 
> This is our "law"
> 
> 46(2) *A pedestrian* facing a traffic light lamp which shows a *red light* *shall not proceed beyond that light*.


 
Presumably, the traffic light that the pedestrian is actually facing is the one on the other side of the road, so he/she can progress upto that light


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## Capt. Beaky (2 Feb 2010)

Phoenix Park (08.30) to Ranelagh took 1hr47mins because of bottlenecking up town. Do the oafs that come up with these laws not understand about the time loss to industry, extra pollution and the sheer arrogance of controlling peoples lives more than ever. Cyclists and jaywalkers cause a lot of accidents to themselves by dangerous behaviour. More police time doling out points and collecting fines and crimnality going underdetected because of extra gardai being shifted to stop people driving at 66% of a top sprinters speed. But perhaps the Greens have a cure for unemployment - the unemployed with red flags walking in front of cars. Ciaran Cuffe likes to get news time but why does it always have to be for crass stupidity and badly thought out puerile machinations.


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## Complainer (2 Feb 2010)

Markjbloggs said:


> Funny, I was driving in Dublin this morning and observed many cyclists ignoring traffic laws,


Did you notice many drivers ignoring traffic laws, particularly speed limits?


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## Purple (2 Feb 2010)

Complainer said:


> Did you notice many drivers ignoring traffic laws, particularly speed limits?


 Yet another post trying to deflect criticism. Why not address the issue rather than trying to change the subject?


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## levelpar (3 Feb 2010)

Delighted to hear that cars will now have to drop speed to almost a crawl because it will give me more time to dash out in front of any car , truck or bus . As I have slowed down due to joint injuries, It will give me extra time on a red light.


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## johnd (3 Feb 2010)

Purple said:


> I cycle in the city centre the odd time. As 18MPH is so slow I hope I don't get done for breaking the speed limit while on my bicycle...



The law apparently does not apply to cyclists only motorists - I read that in the Herald so it must be true


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## shnaek (4 Feb 2010)

Councillors trying to justify their existance. They got so little to do that this is the best they can come up with.


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## bb12 (4 Feb 2010)

capt. Beaky said:


> phoenix park (08.30) to ranelagh took 1hr47mins because of bottlenecking up town. Do the oafs that come up with these laws not understand about the time loss to industry, extra pollution and the sheer arrogance of controlling peoples lives more than ever. Cyclists and jaywalkers cause a lot of accidents to themselves by dangerous behaviour. More police time doling out points and collecting fines and crimnality going underdetected because of extra gardai being shifted to stop people driving at 66% of a top sprinters speed. But perhaps the greens have a cure for unemployment - the unemployed with red flags walking in front of cars. Ciaran cuffe likes to get news time but why does it always have to be for crass stupidity and badly thought out puerile machinations.



+1


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## Latrade (4 Feb 2010)

Capt. Beaky said:


> Cyclists and jaywalkers cause a lot of accidents to themselves by dangerous behaviour.


 
Ok, the idea is duff, be really: they cause a lot of accidents themselves? 

There's enough irrationality behind the decision without playing the "But sir! They do it too" card when you get clocked messing about in class. I don't see why whenever there's an issue relating to driving a vehicle the justification for either the banality of the new rule or the defending of dangerous driving comes down to what a few ignorant cyclists do. One piece of idiotic behaviour does not justify your own.

In this case, none of the engineers or technical experts agreed with the decision and gave valid justifications against it at the meeting (according to Conor F at the AA who was at the meeting) and yet the council still voted in favour. That's where our ire should be, ignorant officers being officious in an office. 

Greater enforcement of the existing traffic laws would have been a start. In particular (in my cyclist mode) against buses and taxi drivers who consider the bus lanes/cycleways to be immune from any road traffic legislation or anything as menial as a speed limit. 

And yes greater enforcement includes fixed notices to those cyclists who can't obey basic rules. 

But then we'd be back on here complaining of the gardai out pulling everyone in and not out catching real criminals. 

There aren't enough gardai to go around detecting all crimes. So some people take advantage on the roads with reckless driving. It'd be great if everyone just drove with a tad more common courtesy and we wouldn't have the need for greater enforcement or unachievable speed limits.


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## RonanC (4 Feb 2010)

Latrade said:


> a few ignorant cyclists


 
In my experience of driving in the city every day morning and evening, *MOST* cyclists do not obey simple road signs or traffic lights.


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## Caveat (4 Feb 2010)

johnd said:


> The law apparently does not apply to cyclists only motorists - I read that in the Herald so it must be true


 
Sounds strange to say the least.  I thought any laws relating to speed applied to any 'vehicle' on the road?


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## bond-007 (4 Feb 2010)

No. The posted limits only apply to mechanically propelled vehicles. 
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1961/en/act/pub/0024/sec0047.html#zza24y1961s47


> *47.*—(1) A person shall not drive a  mechanically propelled vehicle at a speed exceeding a speed limit  applying in relation to the vehicle.
> 
> (2) A person who contravenes subsection (1) of this section shall be  guilty of an offence.
> 
> ...


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## Complainer (4 Feb 2010)

RonanC said:


> In my experience of driving in the city every day morning and evening, *MOST* cyclists do not obey simple road signs or traffic lights.


I'd certainly agree that this is the case for many cyclists. Have you compared this against the number of car drivers that break the speed limit in everyday driving?


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## Caveat (4 Feb 2010)

bond-007 said:


> No. The posted limits only apply to mechanically propelled vehicles.
> http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1961/en/act/pub/0024/sec0047.html#zza24y1961s47


 
Well a bike is arguably 'mechanically propelled' ?!

Not being smart - guess it depends on their own definition.

So theoretically then, a motorised wheelchair user can be done for going 19 mph but a cyclist doing 50 can't be touched.


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## Latrade (4 Feb 2010)

RonanC said:


> In my experience of driving in the city every day morning and evening, *MOST* cyclists do not obey simple road signs or traffic lights.


 
And most motorists don't check their mirrors when pulling in or out, break the speed limit, don't slow down enough at junctions or lights, don't allow enough room for cyclists or pass them too closely...blah blah blah.

As a cyclist I know there are some bad cyclists, I wouldn't say most though. They make my cycle more dangerous too. But then as a driver, I know there are some bad drivers who make my journey more dangerous also. But then we've no way of demonstrating who's right without a boring tit for tat (as above) contradiction exercise. 

It's futile and a pretty boring argument against what is a stupid impractical rule. Isn't it more worthwhile showing how the rule is on the simple points like actually trying to drive any car under 100 years old at that speed?


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## RonanC (4 Feb 2010)

The problem is Latrade, most of Dublin City streets were not designed for cars, buses and bicycles all using the same piece of tarmac. I have seen crazy cycle lanes that are part of a main driving lane, no actually there is no driving lane at all if you look at it from one perspective. 

My experience is of driving the M50, Chapelizod by-pass, Conyngham Road, Quays, Bolton Street, Dorset Street is; 

*Most* cyclists ignore traffic lights, road signs and cars & pedestrians. A lot even ignore safety guidelines by not wearing appropriate clothing and lighting. 

*Many* drivers ignore the Bus Lane in operation on Conyngham Road. 

*Most *drivers are ignorant to the fact that they must drive in the left hand lane of a motorway unless overtaking. Most drivers seem to think they should and are allowed sit in the middle lane. 

*Most* pedestrians ignore crossings and lights and simply walk out anywhere they like. 

*Some* drivers think a red light means put the foot down and hope nothing hits them from the side

*Most* truck drivers totally ignore their speed limits on all roads


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## Latrade (4 Feb 2010)

RonanC said:


> The problem is Latrade, most of Dublin City streets were not designed for cars, buses and bicycles all using the same piece of tarmac. I have seen crazy cycle lanes that are part of a main driving lane, no actually there is no driving lane at all if you look at it from one perspective.
> 
> My experience is of driving the M50, Chapelizod by-pass, Conyngham Road, Quays, Bolton Street, Dorset Street is;
> 
> ...


 
Ok, I can't really dispute that and completely agree in terms of the design of roads. Bus lanes are squeezed in and then cycleways on top of that.

The upshot is that everyone in some way contributes through their actions or inactions and effects the safety of the roads. I just dispute singling out one example either to in some way state they mostly contribute to their own downfall or that their actions justify someone else's breach of road traffic laws.

Though you did forget motorcyclists, don't ge me started on them...

Anyway, even as someone the new law is said to be aimed at protecting when I cycle, I think it's stupid. I've had a couple of close calls and accidents while cycling, not one of which was actually my fault (I would say that) but also not one of which would have been in anyway avoided with the new speed limits. I'd have still been knocked off and ended up with the dislocated shoulder and the myriad other war wounds.

Again, most accidents for cyclists in the city centre have nothing to do with speed, it's positing at traffic lights, drivers/buses/taxis pulling out or in, etc.

Pedestrians? Well yeah, it's pretty much a fact that of you're hit at 20mph it does less damage than at 30mph. But it's also pretty much a fact that if you use the pedestrian crossings you tend to keep your legs anyway.

Just enforcing the laws we have already would have been enough, but then that would have meant people getting pulled in at a greater rate than before, which I'm sure would have been labelled as a waste of gardai time.

I remember visiting Monaco and crossing the road, the lights had changed for us to cross and we were literally one foot off the pedestrian crossing marking. There was a Policeman across the road and he shouted at us to halt, go back and walk on the actual walkway (once the lights changed again).


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## z107 (4 Feb 2010)

> More police time doling out points and collecting fines and crimnality going underdetected because of extra gardai being shifted to stop people driving at 66% of a top sprinters speed.



The sooner Usain Bolt is banned from Dublin the better. We also need to ban those head shops too.
In fact, why not ban everything as a default, and start letting us know what we can actually do?


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## werner (4 Feb 2010)

The 30kph zone is another nail in the head for business and commerce in central Dublin. Shoppers, Diners, Commercial traffic etc are being driven away from the city because DCC is making it more and more difficult for motorists to use their car. The anti business 30kph zone inflicted by Labour councillors (spokesperson for the Traffic Commitee and cycle propagandist Labour councillor Andrew Montague) is hard to fathom during the worst recession Dublin has seen. Commerce is the life blood of the city and it is being strangled by being turned into some sort of a pedestrian footpath.

Setting an arbitrary limit right across the city 24/7 is the worst form of traffic planning to come from DCC. Apart from being anti-comerce the Labour councillors have now increased traffic pollution due to car,commercial traffic engines now coupled with artificially increased congestion, being forced to drive in a lower gear with the resultant increase in emissions.

The majority of motorists drive at a safe speed they consider reasonable for the prevailing conditions and at one that is suitable for the road. The impractical 30kph zone that is now set only brings safe road use and the law into disrepute. The Gardai need to be better deployed to fight crime in town rather than motorists.

Speed limits should be set to match the condition of the road and not for ideological reasons by the cycling lobbby that have no effect on road safety. Due to the 30kph zone, the Quays are now more dangerous as anyone may witness, apart from the all day law breaking by cyclists there is now an increase in jay-walking pedestrians dodging thru' the traffic gaps. The 30kph zone is a smokescreen to hide the seriously dangerous cycle lanes that DCC have rolled out and their failure to reduce pedestrian fatalities. Instead of addressing the real problem (most fatal accidents in town occur after midnight with pedestrians on the Quays) of late night bar extensions and associated drunkedness that leads to these fatal accidents it is easier to be seen to inflict needless penalties on law abiding motorists. 

The anti-commerce and anti private motorist 30kph zone must be rolled back now! I suggest that you contact your local councillors and express how you feel about the zone.

In case anyone imagines I have a political axe to grind against Labour councillors I havn't, so I am happy to quote Labour leader Eamon Gilmore as heard on Newstalk radios this morning when he was asked about the 30kph limit

[broken link removed]
*"Labour leader Eamon Gilmore has said a 30 kilometre an hour speed limit in city centres is impractical.*

The new limit controversially came into effect in Dublin this week. It is slated for Cork by next Christmas, and Galway city council has also proposed introducing it in the future.

A Labour councillor was behind the original proposal in Dublin.

*But his party leader said it is not a good idea.*

"I accept it was done for good reasons," he said.

*"I think it's impractical.*

*"I'm not sure it's even a good safety measure… trying to stay at under 30kph probably means you are spending more time looking at the clock." *


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## levelpar (5 Feb 2010)

Lets not forget that the 30 kph is the maximum speed


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## MANTO (8 Feb 2010)

levelpar said:


> Lets not forget that the 30 kph is the maximum speed


 
And its not a target


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## levelpar (8 Feb 2010)

A good idea which saves you constantly checking your speed and taking your eyes off the road is to reverse your car so that the rear of your car is facing up the quays and then go into reverse gear


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## wavejumper (9 Feb 2010)

I think anything done to close the city centre to traffic is a good thing.  

In many cities like Rome and Florence the city centre is closed to traffic (except for residents and public transport).  You don't see the local shops in these cities complaining about it as obviously it allows a lot more people (not cars) to move about the area.  

It's only in Dublin that you get this petty lobby of cash register handlers crying how the city centre is becoming one big footpath.  Honestly, it's about making the city more liveable to the people.  

Just as well the city planning is not fully in the hands of the grubby shopkeepers or the whole of Dublin would be like a drive-by Mc Donald.


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## liaconn (9 Feb 2010)

I think you'll find that other cities have a far superior public transport system to Dublin.


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## Purple (9 Feb 2010)

liaconn said:


> I think you'll find that other cities have a far superior public transport system to Dublin.



Yes, but other cities have a far inferior public transport system to Dublin.


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## liaconn (9 Feb 2010)

Well his point was that in many cities like Rome and Florence people are happy to leave their cars at home. In Dublin that's not a viable option for many people as it involves longs waits for buses or long treks to the nearest bus stop. Not to mention the completely unreliable service with scheduled buses not turning up or sailing past packed full. If the authorities want to prevent people bringing cars into the city they have to provide an efficient and reliable public transport system.


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## Purple (9 Feb 2010)

liaconn said:


> Well his point was that in many cities like Rome and Florence people are happy to leave their cars at home. In Dublin that's not a viable option for many people as it involves longs waits for buses or long treks to the nearest bus stop. Not to mention the completely unreliable service with scheduled buses not turning up or sailing past packed full. If the authorities want to prevent people bringing cars into the city they have to provide an efficient and reliable public transport system.



Well yes, I agree with you there.


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## wavejumper (9 Feb 2010)

bit of a chcken and egg scenario there.  The city managers will increase public transport services when demand for it raises, the same way they cut bus routes because there is not enough demand. 

I think they are going about it the right way; making it not so easy for car owners to access the city centre and hopefully gradually closing it off.

They tried to close it completely late last year only to backtrack after shop owners claimed that people without cars do no shop as much as non car users. 

I think it's terrible that city planners should be forced to make their decisions based on such drivel.  For a city hoping to attract tourists it surely seems daft not to invest in making city centre more attractive than a motorway bypass.


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## Capt. Beaky (9 Feb 2010)

wavejumper said:


> ..........
> They tried to close it completely late last year only to backtrack after shop owners claimed that people without cars do no shop as much as non car users. .............


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## werner (10 Feb 2010)

Capt. Beaky said:


>


 
Correct, making Dublin more hostile to shoppers, they want to convey goods in their cars, the less physically able who need cars and commuters who want to shop let alone the businesses who make deliverys is killing commerce in the city.

Dublin is not a cycle park for the few in Dublin city council who want to turn it into one but a city that should be accessible for all including business. 30kph crawl zones harms all forms of business as well as forcing and encouraging shoppers to use suburban centres.

If you do not believe check out the closed shops in Grafton St, the type of shops that are now left and then how well Dundrum shopping centre is doing. The council decisions against private motorists because of the few pro cycling looneys in Dublin city council is hurting commerce and lowering the environment in Dublin, making it a less pleasant place to be. 

This enjoyable link says it all!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWCLlMzX-dA


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## liaconn (10 Feb 2010)

wavejumper said:


> I think it's terrible that city planners should be forced to make their decisions based on such drivel. For a city hoping to attract tourists it surely seems daft not to invest in making city centre more attractive than a motorway bypass.


 
And never mind the people who actually LIVE in the city and its suburbs and need to be able to get around, shop, keep businesses going etc.... that's all just drivel


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## Complainer (10 Feb 2010)

werner said:


> If you do not believe check out the closed shops in Grafton St, the type of shops that are now left and then how well Dundrum shopping centre is doing. The council decisions against private motorists because of the few pro cycling looneys in Dublin city council is hurting commerce and lowering the environment in Dublin, making it a less pleasant place to be.


Do you think that perhaps the huge rents and hugely expensive parking might also be factors in steering consumers out to the 'burbs too?


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## RonanC (10 Feb 2010)

werner said:


> If you do not believe check out the closed shops in Grafton St,


 
The shops on Grafton street closing has nothing at all to do with the council trying to introduce lower speed limits. It has everything to do with the massive high rents and the fact that people in general are not spending as much as they used to due to less money in their pockets. 

Dundrum may be packed every weekend but that has more to do with people using the centre to spend some time socialising in different ways and not everyone is buying either.


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## MANTO (10 Feb 2010)

RonanC said:


> Dundrum may be packed every weekend but that has more to do with people using the centre to spend some time socialising in different ways and not everyone is buying either.


 
+1 - There seems to be more of a social element to Dundrum. Its not as busy as it used to be and when you look around there are a lot fewer poeple carrying bags.


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## liaconn (10 Feb 2010)

I agree. A lot of people just go there because they're bored and looking for something 'to do'. You will often see packed malls while a lot of the shops are absolutely empty. The restaurants and coffee shops do good business however, as Dundrum seems to be mainly used as a meeting place by some people.


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## haminka1 (10 Feb 2010)

Purple said:


> Yes, but other cities have a far inferior public transport system to Dublin.



which cities? i mean abroad, not in ireland where the public transport system is an insult to each taxpayer


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