# Saw Child Verbally Abused in Shop



## MandaC (10 Jun 2008)

Was in Tesco yesterday evening.  Heard shouting about three or four tills down.  Woman doing shopping, had a child in tow, a quiet little girl could have been anywhere from 3 to 5.  Dont know what ensued, but the jist of it when I looked the little girl was struggling to hold a box of cereal , almost as big as herself.

Either she was unable to hold it or something, but the woman was shouting in a terrible abusive manner at the child and pulling the cereal box back and forth.  Child was attached to the box and was being jerked backwards and forwards quite roughly.  Everyone around looked stunned but nobody said anything. Went on for a few minutes.

Me being me, was going to tell her what for and then I said perhaps I will make it worse for the child when she gets home.  I put down my basket, followed her to car park and took her car registration number.

What do I do with it - contact Gardai, Community Gardai, or Social Services? If thats the way the child is treated in public, I hate to see what happens to her at home.

The underlying thing I took from it was that the child, was not crying, but looked so so sad.  What is the best way to follow up.


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## ClubMan (10 Jun 2008)

I guess some or all of the advice here would apply?

Concerned neighbour

However in this case I doubt that anybody is going to (be able to?) trace her through a car number alone on the basis of this report?


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## ninsaga (10 Jun 2008)

Describe "terrible abusive manner'

"Either she was unable to hold it or something"...... so are you unclear as to what exactly was going on?


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## Welfarite (10 Jun 2008)

Perhaps you are overreacting to this incident? Yopur description makes it out to be an assault on a child but it may just have been a stubborn child refusing to do what her mother said for the umpteenth time that day.


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## ClubMan (10 Jun 2008)

Some of these threads are making me nervous of going outside the door with our "terrible twos" nipper in case I get lynched or arrested by do gooders for not being the perfect parent.


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## FredBloggs (10 Jun 2008)

ninsaga said:


> Describe "terrible abusive manner'
> 
> "Either she was unable to hold it or something"...... so are you unclear as to what exactly was going on?


 
I know it is terrible to see a child treated that way and I know every case of abuse/neglect that comes out has loads of examples where people looked the other way but you only saw a bit of what happened - not that whatever went before could excuse it.  Unless you know the whole picture it is hard to be judgemental.  The child could have taken down the cereal off a shelf even though the woman told her she wasn't getting it and then the child refused to put it back.  The woman could have been patient with the child for hours.  The child could have been moaning and groaning all day and the bit you saw could have been the moment she snapped.  It doesn't excuse it but it happens.  Anyway you just don't know.


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## FredBloggs (10 Jun 2008)

ClubMan said:


> Some of these threads are making me nervous of going outside the door with our "terrible twos" nipper in case I get lynched or arrested by do gooders for not being the perfect parent.


 
And you'll find the do gooders are either not parents themselves or are parents with memory loss who cannot remember what it was like to have a terrible twos toddler!


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## efm (10 Jun 2008)

Welfarite said:


> Perhaps you are overreacting to this incident? Yopur description makes it out to be an assault on a child but it may just have been a stubborn child refusing to do what her mother said for the umpteenth time that day.


 
I agree - shopping with toddlers is a nightmare and a half, particularly in the evening when their blood sugar levels are probably lower and they are getting tired and cranky.


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## MandaC (10 Jun 2008)

Woman had shopping in a basket and child,  from what I could make out, child had been  told to carry the large box.  When I looked the child was struggling to walk with the box and had put it down and picked it back up and was ambling toward the check out.   Woman not happy with child slouching or whatever, grabbed the box from above and was pulling it back and forth while all the time shouting at the child.  What she was saying was  mostly incoherrent!  I could make out somethings (Calling the child stupid, effing....whatever, )  child appeared to know she was told to carry the box and did not want to let her mother down. Child still attached to box and was being shaken back and forth.

When I was growing  up you could be given a wallop if you really pushed your luck. This was something else.  Pure rage. Eyes bulging.  Scary stuff.  Totally lost control.  I dont care what child did(meek child did not appear to do anything, did not see  but could have been bold earlier) but I was shocked.  Believe me folks, takes a lot to shock me.

I am the first to say bloody do-gooders, but can assure you not the case.  If she had been giving out to the child fair enough, but I could hear her cursing, and using foul language before I even came around the corner to the tills.  I might go back and see if the checkout girl is on and get her feedback because I could see the look on her face.

Really, its one of those things you would have to see to believe.

I am thinking of having a word with the community guard and sound her out to see if by giving the car number they can follow up and get details.  Will ask if possible for them to speak to staff in Tesco, to see if they viewed the incident in a similar manner.


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## ubiquitous (10 Jun 2008)

Are you a parent yourself?


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## Bamhan (10 Jun 2008)

Good God, why is everyone so accepting of a child being shouted at.
If it was bad enough for a person to note it, follow the person to her car, post it here etc then we should not just say ah terrible twos.
People are so willing to witness children being abused and just not even comment on it any more.

You do not have to be a parent to realise shouting at a small child is wrong wrong wrong no matter what they did.

Makes you wonder how they are treated at home when parents are willing to treat them like that in public.

For the record I am a parent of three small children.


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## heretohelp (10 Jun 2008)

mother of 2 tiddlers here, step mother to another, this was unacceptable, totally agree with above poster that we are taking a lay back attitude to the whole " parent shout at / hit child thing ".

more needs to be done.


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## Welfarite (10 Jun 2008)

You say the girl was struggling to hold the cereal (almost as big as herself which is big even if she was only three!) but then say she was “attached” to it, being “jerked back and forth”. Either the child was a mini Tyson or the mother was Posh Spice. Can you describe how you know when a person is “stunned” as opposed to observing an interesting cameo from a distance? And, finally, you decided that because the child didn’t cry, she was past that point rather than just being stubborn. Let me rewrite your story:


“Was in Tesco yesterday evening. Heard a raised voice a few tills down. Woman with a child was shopping, a girl of 3 t0 5. Don’t know what happened but the gist of it was when I looked, the little girl was holding onto a box of cereal. 
The woman was shouting at the child and trying to wrestle the cereal box from her. The child wouldn’t let go. People were staring. Went on for a few minutes.”


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## Bamhan (10 Jun 2008)

I am absolutely gobsmacked at the attitudes expressed here.


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## heretohelp (10 Jun 2008)

Bamhan said:


> I am absolutely gobsmacked at the attitudes expressed here.


 
Sometimes people just dont want to know, and its easier to walk on by than say something and cause hassle. 
But its hard to know whether or not to give the benefit of the doubt and assume this is a once off or on the other hard you will wonder is this going on all of the time ??

Tough call


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## MrMan (10 Jun 2008)

> When I was growing up you could be given a wallop if you really pushed your luck.



If she did this instead of shouting at her would you have reacted differently? There are alot of holes in the story and while it is always uncomfortable when you see people having a go at their kids you have to remind yourself that kids do push boundaries and sometimes parents do lose their tempers. I would let it go now, if you felt it at that time that was the time to act, but sometimes hindsight makes a situation seem worse, 





> Pure rage. Eyes bulging. Scary stuff. Totally lost control. I dont care what child did(meek child did not appear to do anything, did not see but could have been bold earlier)


.




> You do not have to be a parent to realise shouting at a small child is wrong wrong wrong no matter what they did.



I don't think I have ever met a parent that hasn't shouted at a child, mine included and that would make for a hell of alot of bad parents in your eyes.


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## MrMan (10 Jun 2008)

> " parent shout at / hit child thing ".



Two very different things and an example of how details get exaggerated.


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## Bamhan (10 Jun 2008)

Shouting at a child is bad parenting in my book.
And yes I have been guilty at times and I was wrong and admit that.

I doubt anyone would say that shouting at a child was a 'good' thing.


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## MandaC (10 Jun 2008)

I am not a parent myself, its not really relevant, but have seen my sister loose the rag with her two (9 months and five) and telling them off and giving out quite forcefully when they have been complete pains.

I have however, first hand experience of the long term effects of serious child abuse and how it can destroy people and families and follow on into adult life.

Am not really looking for advice on whether people feel she was out of order or not, to my mind she was 100% out of order, my question is given that I only have a car registration number, can I do anything. 

D'ont ever turn a blind eye.


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## annR (10 Jun 2008)

I don't know why people are so ready to pick holes in this story?  From my reading, the OPs question is, what would you do if you saw a child being treated in an unacceptable manner that gave cause for concern.  I don't think the point is whether we believe this particular situation warrented it or not, after all we weren't there, the OP was.


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## FredBloggs (10 Jun 2008)

I think Mandac is right to be concerned and obviously the child's parent was bang out of order but all she saw was a part of what could have been a much longer incident.  That doesn't excuse it but it may explain it.

I don't think people here are accepting of a child being shouted at.  And I do agree that its wrong to shout at a child but I also think those who are posting here have had incidents where children have pushed them over the brink.  I know that doesn't make it right but it does happen.   Most parents are very sorry after they blow their top at the child who has driven them to distraction and vow never to let it happen again. 

For the record though I'd be extremely embarrased if I ever shouted at a child in public.


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## ubiquitous (10 Jun 2008)

MandaC said:


> Am not really looking for advice on whether people feel she was out of order or not, to my mind she was 100% out of order, my question is given that I only have a car registration number, can I do anything.



That is surely for you to decide. Its hardly too difficult to find the State child protection agencies on google.ie


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## MandaC (10 Jun 2008)

Welfarite said:


> You say the girl was struggling to hold the cereal (almost as big as herself which is big even if she was only three!) but then say she was “attached” to it, being “jerked back and forth”. Either the child was a mini Tyson or the mother was Posh Spice. Can you describe how you know when a person is “stunned” as opposed to observing an interesting cameo from a distance? And, finally, you decided that because the child didn’t cry, she was past that point rather than just being stubborn. Let me rewrite your story:
> 
> 
> “Was in Tesco yesterday evening. Heard a raised voice a few tills down. Woman with a child was shopping, a girl of 3 t0 5. Don’t know what happened but the gist of it was when I looked, the little girl was holding onto a box of cereal.
> The woman was shouting at the child and trying to wrestle the cereal box from her. The child wouldn’t let go. People were staring. Went on for a few minutes.”



 I have related the incident from my eyes, which is the way I saw it.   Please do not tell me what I saw. *Please do not try to rewrite my story*. It is not really your place to do that.  I am not on trial here, so please do not question me or try to pick holes,  as if I am in a witness box.   You are not me, you were not there.


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## Guest117 (10 Jun 2008)

Car registration is useless.

Any agency that may take a complaint of this nature will likely not have resourses to track people down from a car reg. Gardai won't do anything unless you make an official complaint.


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## MandaC (10 Jun 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> That is surely for you to decide. Its hardly too difficult to find the State child protection agencies on google.ie



I am doing something, my question is - best approach to contact community garda or child protection services directly, given that all I have is a car registration number.  I know how to get the numbers, just who to contact.


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## z109 (10 Jun 2008)

You're right - the child is probably being abused horribly. The best thing for them is for them to be taken into care or to see their mammy being banged to rights.

Seriously, what do you hope to achieve? Will this end result in a positive outcome for the child or her mother?


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## ubiquitous (10 Jun 2008)

MandaC said:


> I am doing something, my question is - best approach to contact community garda or child protection services directly, given that all I have is a car registration number.  I know how to get the numbers, just who to contact.



Can you not decide this for yourself?


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## Calico (10 Jun 2008)

You are best off to forget about. I'm sure you were correct in what you saw but it isn't enough to go to the authorities about.


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## car (10 Jun 2008)

Ring the gardai and social services and let them advise.   If they follow it up, and either they or a social worker call out, listen to the womans side of the story, decide to do nothing, they at least have a record of the behaviour.  

Theres nothing else you can do short of having a chance meeting with the woman again and confronting her, letting her know what you saw and how badly you feel about what you saw and hope she listens and doesnt tell you to eff off and mind yer own business.

On the incident itself, only you know how bad that one was, but I remember growing up seeing similar incidents nearly every day,  but its mostly behind closed doors these days as the screaming mothers dont want social services calling on them.   It still goes on, friends of mine have 3 youngs kids, the mother screams her head off at them, while making their dinner and ironing their clothes.   Its not all bedtime stories.  

Parents who have young kids would understand, but because of that would also know when an incident is overstepping that "its ok, because its late in the evening, full shopping trolley, who knows whether the child is acting up deliberately or not" mark.  Id like to think (father of 2 young annoying little...) that I would step in if I seen something but Id have to be very sure and then some that the incident merited it.


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## MrMan (10 Jun 2008)

> I have related the incident from my eyes, which is the way I saw it. Please do not tell me what I saw. Please do not try to rewrite my story. I am not on trial here, so please do not question me or try to pick holes, as if I am in a witness box. You are not me, you were not there. It is not really your place to do that.


I don't think welfarite was putting you on trial, just providing you with the fact that that same situation could have been viewed by someone else and a different conclusion would have been drawn. Don't take it personally, like someone else already said only you can really make the final judgement on what you should do, but you should also realise what your actions could lead to, thats why absolute clarity is needed and no holes should be able to be picked in your statement.


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## efm (10 Jun 2008)

MandaC said:


> I have related the incident from my eyes, which is the way I saw it. Please do not tell me what I saw. *Please do not try to rewrite my story*. It is not really your place to do that. I am not on trial here, so please do not question me or try to pick holes, as if I am in a witness box. You are not me, you were not there.


 
MandaC - to be fair you posted the whole incident and were then surprised when people challenged you on it - what you could have said was "I saw something I wasn't comfortable with, got a car reg, is there anything I can do?" - in a forum like this posting the whole scenario invites comment.

To be honest I think car has summed it pretty well and has listed the options available to you, however, I would be very slow about confronting people about their behaviour towards their children based on a single isolated incident - you just don't know 1. what has happened that day to that woman / family to make her act like that or 2.  you don't know what they would say or do if you challenged them.

Anyway, good luck in whatever you decide.


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## ney001 (10 Jun 2008)

MandaC said:


> I have related the incident from my eyes, which is the way I saw it.   Please do not tell me what I saw. *Please do not try to rewrite my story*. It is not really your place to do that.  I am not on trial here, so please do not question me or try to pick holes,  as if I am in a witness box.   You are not me, you were not there.



Look, if you're really concerned about this, why not just go down to the gardai and explain what your concerns are, give them the registration which they can run there and then and leave it with them to sort out, it is up to them to call social services or perhaps there is a community liason garda who could check it out.  If they flat out refuse to do something about this then write a note explaining your concerns and asking it to be kept on file somewhere so that if god forbid something does happen in the future there will at least be somebody who witnessed it and came forward.


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## Guest117 (10 Jun 2008)

ney001 said:


> Look, if you're really concerned about this, why not just go down to the gardai and explain what your concerns are, give them the registration which they can run there and then and leave it with them to sort out, it is up to them to call social services or perhaps there is a community liason garda who could check it out. If they flat out refuse to do something about this then write a note explaining your concerns and asking it to be kept on file somewhere so that if god forbid something does happen in the future there will at least be somebody who witnessed it and came forward.


 
As I posted earlier the gardai will ask if you want to make a complaint or not and generally will only act if you do make a complaint. This is understandable as they are grossly under staffed and they cannot be expected to follow up on every single concern of every citizen.


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## Megan (10 Jun 2008)

Would there be any CCTV footage of this. Some supermarkets have cameras on the tills.


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## eileen alana (10 Jun 2008)

MandaC said:


> I can I do anything.


 

Yes you can, if you are that concerned go and do some volunteer work with Barnados, that will open your eyes to the extend of child abuse in this country. Child protection has for many years been way down the politicial agenda for our politicians.


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## heretohelp (10 Jun 2008)

yoganmahew said:


> You're right - the child is probably being abused horribly. The best thing for them is for them to be taken into care or to see their mammy being banged to rights.
> 
> Seriously, what do you hope to achieve? Will this end result in a positive outcome for the child or her mother?


 
so should the OP just put up and shut up in other words???


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## z109 (10 Jun 2008)

> Seriously, what do you hope to achieve? Will this end result in a positive outcome for the child or her mother?





heretohelp said:


> so should the OP just put up and shut up in other words???


The OP needs to have an idea of what they are trying to achieve. What is it they think/hope/want the guards to do that won't make the situation worse for either parent or child?


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## John Rambo (10 Jun 2008)

annR said:


> I don't know why people are so ready to pick holes in this story?  From my reading, the OPs question is, what would you do if you saw a child being treated in an unacceptable manner that gave cause for concern.  I don't think the point is whether we believe this particular situation warrented it or not, after all we weren't there, the OP was.


 
Unacceptable to who exactly? There's a disturbing proliferation of threads like this with people who don't have all the facts making judgements on a scenario. Joyce called it gnomon...extrapolating the whole picture from just a portion of it. Perhaps the child was demanding the parent purchase the cereal (as children often do). Certainly, I'm not a parent so I wouldn't start lecturing people on the parenting of toddlers but I don't see a problem with raising your voice to a child as a last resort. I mean, it's not as if the child was beaten! There's a balance to be struck between being civic minded and being a busy body dreaming up scenarios to intervene in. (and I'm not suggesting that the OP is)


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## heretohelp (10 Jun 2008)

yoganmahew said:


> The OP needs to have an idea of what they are trying to achieve. What is it they think/hope/want the guards to do that won't make the situation worse for either parent or child?


 
whos to say it will get worse ? or better for that matter ?
no one knows, maybe it was a once off , or maybe it was a cry for help by this mother. 

Maybe the mum is on need of some help and by the OP making a decision to call the appropriate authorities the mum might get some much needed help.


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## Vanilla (10 Jun 2008)

The gardai can do nothing unless it is an emergency and there is an immediate threat to the safety of the child.

The correct contact is the Social Worker in the HSE’s Local Health Office in the area where the child concerned resides.

What you can expect to happen is that maybe, eventually, the social worker will contact the mother to arrange a voluntary meeting with lots of advance notice to her. Although to be honest I don't think they will follow up at all with just a car reg.


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## MandaC (10 Jun 2008)

What struck me about the situation was that the adult was treating the child as an adult in her treatment of  her and her bullying/aggression towards her,rather than an adult child/relationship.  The language alone(the bits I could make out)  and the body language gave that away.  People may, or may not understand what I am trying to say here. If you do, you will understand the concerns.  If you dont you will think that this is another busy body interference. Whether I saw all of the plot unravel is not really relevant, my judgement call is that what is saw is concerning enough to warrant reporting.

So will contact Community Garda, good suggestion about the CCTV.  Will tell them what I saw and they can tell if they or Social Welfare should do anything.  I would like Social Welfare to call to house to assure themselves that all is ok and they can see family in own environment to hopefully allay any concerns.

Again, thanks all.


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## ClubMan (10 Jun 2008)

Megan said:


> Would there be any CCTV footage of this. Some supermarkets have cameras on the tills.


I can't believe that I am reading this. Why not give the guys on _CSI Miami _a call while we're at it?


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## ubiquitous (10 Jun 2008)

MandaC said:


> What struck me about the situation was that the adult was treating the child as an adult in her treatment of  her and her bullying/aggression towards her,rather than an adult child/relationship.  The language alone(the bits I could make out)  and the body language gave that away.  People may, or may not understand what I am trying to say here. If you do, you will understand the concerns.  If you dont you will think that this is another busy body interference. Whether I saw all of the plot unravel is not really relevant, my judgement call is that what is saw is concerning enough to warrant reporting.



Wait until the day comes when you as a parent are responsible for navigating your way through a supermarket or shopping centre with a small contrary child. You will cringe when you remember your reaction to this incident.


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## MandaC (10 Jun 2008)

ClubMan said:


> I can't believe that I am reading this. Why not give the guys on _CSI Miami _a call while we're at it?




I actually think its a good suggestion.  As I witnessed the incident, I know that if CCTV were on that till and if anyone in authority were to view it, that the concerns would be clear.


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## MandaC (10 Jun 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> Wait until the day comes when you as a parent is responsible for navigating your way through a supermarket or shopping centre with a small contrary child. You will cringe when you remember your reaction to this incident.



No, I have to say I never will.  Without going into too much personal detail, I had a difficult enough childhood and can tell a mile off the difference between someone who is losing their rag in sheer frustration at a contrary child as most parents do, or someone who is agressive in an adult way towards a child.


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## ClubMan (10 Jun 2008)

MandaC said:


> I actually think its a good suggestion.  As I witnessed the incident, I know that if CCTV were on that till and if anyone in authority were to view it, that the concerns would be clear.


Do you honestly believe that the supermarket manager is going to treat such a query seriously and actually sit down with you and maybe the _Gardai _to review the "evidence"? If you do then best of luck.


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## NicolaM (11 Jun 2008)

I have to say I second Ubiquitous.
I have been reading this thread, and it is really astounding the way it is going.
CCTV footage? Giving the gardai a car reg to hunt down a harassed/under pressure mother?
If this was everyone's reaction, every parent with a young child prone to tantrums/acting up/being in bad form would have to watch their back leaving their homes. Or every parent having a bad day would have to hole themselves up at home, for fear of someone reporting them.
This seems like a completely over the top reaction, and will probably not end up helping anyone.
Nicola


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## Bronte (11 Jun 2008)

The mother shouted and used some foul language, this in Ireland where the f word trips off the tongue.  Do people actually think the police/social services are interested in parents who shout at their kids - that's about 99% of parents.  Shouting is better than hitting and maybe it's the mother's way of letting off steam (which is a good thing).

Yesterday my two year old decided (again - once a week occurance) not to walk back to the car and I held her firmly and made sure she walked to the car (10 minute walk), after explaining calmly (which actually doesn't work with a 2 year old) that she must walk and she roared like she was in torture all the way as I passed parent after parent - do you think parents (me) like this sort of thing, it's embarressing, it's life, it's parenthood, but the other parents understood, because from time to time I see their kids howling too and do I interfer, I do not.  Most parents think "thank goodness it's not my child today."

I too agree with Ubiquitous.


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## ClubMan (11 Jun 2008)

Moved to _Letting Off Steam_.


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## ubiquitous (11 Jun 2008)

> <Expletives deleted>


You won't get a Garda to take action on that... 

I was ashamed a few weeks ago, in a similar situation, to call one of my own kids a "twit". Thankfully this was not in public or I could have been in the same boat as this lady. Its very easy to say something unwise or intemperate when stressed by a child's bad behaviour.


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## MandaC (11 Jun 2008)

I have been pulled up  here when trying to post exactly what was said, (and bear in mind I could only make out some of it) as its too much for the boards.

If its too much for the boards for us adults here(and it is strong enough stuff in fairness) why is it not too much for a 3 year old child.  

To subject a small child to at least a five minute tirade of constant agressive shouting and foul language is mental abuse.  Should any person put up this?  For any reason?  Let alone a child who cant even answer back.  Its a real shame.

Anyone who thinks it is the same as calling a child a "twit" (and then feeling sorry) is not really getting what I am saying and for the most part, I suppose,  thank God for that.


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## Margie (11 Jun 2008)

I have two small children.  Yes, I agree, all parents get mad and loose their temper and give out to their children.  They wouldn't be normal if they didn't.  But what we must remember is that there is a line *not* to be crossed.  For any parent to curse and swear and shout at their child in a public area poses serious questions in my mind.  I would be very concerned.  I certainly don't think my conscience could let it go, to do nothing if I were the O.P.  

I would never dream of cursing or using foul language in front of my children never mind to them.


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## ClubMan (11 Jun 2008)

MandaC said:


> I have been pulled up  here when trying to post exactly what was said, (and bear in mind I could only make out some of it) as its too much for the boards.
> 
> If its too much for the boards for us adults here(and it is strong enough stuff in fairness) why is it not too much for a 3 year old child.
> 
> ...


So - what have you done about this case on a practical level other than posting here?


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## MandaC (11 Jun 2008)

Margie, fair play, your children are lucky.  Your response is 100% why I am concerned.

Clubman, will be following up after work.

Thanks all.


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## Graham_07 (11 Jun 2008)

ClubMan said:


> So - what have you done about this case on a practical level other than posting here?


 


MandaC said:


> What do I do with it - contact Gardai, Community Gardai, or Social Services?


 
The OP asked here what they might do before taking any other
action.  From the responses I imagine the answer on what to do on a practical level is clear.


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## ClubMan (11 Jun 2008)

MandaC said:


> Clubman, will be following up after work.


Is time not of the essence here? Who knows what shouting the child might have to endure in the meantime since the incident two days ago?


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## Ceist Beag (11 Jun 2008)

ClubMan said:


> Is time not of the essence here? Who knows what shouting the child might have to endure in the meantime since the incident two days ago?



Ahh ClubMan quit stirring will ye, really sometimes ye just can't help being contrary/sarcastic can ye? The OP has a clear idea of what she needs to do and only came on here to get advice on where best to go about it. So let it go will ye?


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## MandaC (11 Jun 2008)

ClubMan said:


> Is time not of the essence here? Who knows what shouting the child might have to endure in the meantime since the incident two days ago?



Have to say, you have really topped yourself with that comment.  Really hopes it all keeps fine for you.

And to be honest with you, my own father grew up in Artane Industrial School.  It took 62 long years for his story to be told and believed despite trying to tell it from practically day 1.

With attitudes like that, maybe we should just keep on turning a blind eye and ignore the signs  and our instinct that something is wrong.

If I can help a child in any way(I am not sure I can) after 2 days, then perhaps we really have come a long way in this country.


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## fobs (11 Jun 2008)

As a mother of 2 young kids I would be VERY slow to report a stranger after seeing ONE incident I didn't like. If I were to do so would have to report a lot of people as I would see similiar incidents every day. If on the other hand I had witnessed a neighbour constantly shouting/abusing her kids then that would be the time to act as it would not be a one-off and I would feel more able to persue it.

I would dread to think that any guard/social services would act on a report by soemone to one isolated incident that to me sounds as if the mother just lost her temper. I would have to be absolutely sure that the child was going to be in danger before interferring and can the OP be sure here?


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## Margie (11 Jun 2008)

Is it acceptable behaviour for a moderator to make fun of an issue concerning a child's welfare. Once gain I'm appaled by Clubman's attidude. mandac, you do what you feel is right, only you saw what happened. I fully support you.


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## ubiquitous (11 Jun 2008)

MandaC said:


> If I can help a child in any way(I am not sure I can) after 2 days, then perhaps we really have come a long way in this country.



You should bear in mind that reporting a parent to social services may generate serious consequences for their entire family, including the child herself and her siblings. It is not something that should be done lightly. I think the Gardai and Social Services will in the first instance caution you in this regard once you approach them.


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## so-crates (11 Jun 2008)

MandaC, not to impugn your ability to be objective, but have you considered perhaps that your impression of the incident is coloured by the experiences you have repeatedly referred to?


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## fobs (11 Jun 2008)

> mandac wrote
> 
> And to be honest with you, my own father grew up in Artane Industrial School. It took 62 long years for his story to be told and believed despite trying to tell it from practically day 1.
> 
> ...


 
I think you could be letting this cloud your judgement and imagining all sorts of things when in reality the situation could be totally different. Be sure that you are wanting to help this child rather than just prove your point.


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## MrMan (11 Jun 2008)

> Is it acceptable behaviour for a moderator to make fun of an issue concerning a child's welfare. Once gain I'm appaled by Clubman's attidude. mandac, you do what you feel is right, only you saw what happened. I fully support you.


You will fully support someone who admits that they weren't sure of the circumstances, didn't see the whole scenario? The problem is there's only half a story is available to us and although the OP's heart is in the right place, it doesn't make sense to try and fill in the gaps of the story. There is enough of doubt as to whether its a case of abuse as to let it go, the parent didn't strike the child, they did lose their temper and the child looked sad, i personally don't add up those and result in abuse. 
I don't think clubman is making light of abuse, I think that he, as a parent is finding it hard to comprehend the knee jerk reaction that would no doubt impact on a families live if it were followed through i.e report to guards or social services. Thats my reading of it anyway.


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## Margie (11 Jun 2008)

What mother would shout abuse and foul language at a toddler in a shopping centre in front of loads of people?  What would Clubman do if he came upon his wife shouting and roaring foul and abusive language at his toddler in their local shop?

My final word is that this behaviour is totally unacceptable and should not be allowed to become acceptable as part of our society.  I support mandac in her reaction.  I would report the reg. number to the guards and let them take responsibility.  

I know a girl who had a guard come to her door and caution her because she stuck up her fingers at an adult in another car.  the person took her reg no. and reported her.  maybe what this mom needs is a wake up call.  no one is suggesting that her child is removed.

i also think it is a very low blow for anyone to suggest that the op's judgement is clouded because of past experiences.  She sounds to be an articulate intelligent lady who is reacting to what SHE saw.


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## ubiquitous (11 Jun 2008)

Margie, 
Are you a parent yourself?


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## Margie (11 Jun 2008)

Margie said:


> I have two small children. Yes, I agree, all parents get mad and loose their temper and give out to their children. They wouldn't be normal if they didn't. But what we must remember is that there is a line *not* to be crossed. For any parent to curse and swear and shout at their child in a public area poses serious questions in my mind. I would be very concerned. I certainly don't think my conscience could let it go, to do nothing if I were the O.P.
> 
> I would never dream of cursing or using foul language in front of my children never mind to them.


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## ubiquitous (11 Jun 2008)

Fair play to you. You're obviously an excellent parent. I wish I (and, for that matter, my wife) could match your high standards.


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## Margie (11 Jun 2008)

i would consider myself a good parent, certainly not perfect.  Believe you me i have raised my voice from time to time.  But can you honestly say that your wife would roar and shout curses at your little one?  is this normal behaviour?


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## MandaC (11 Jun 2008)

To actually answer the question or perhaps state that my own judgement in this case might be clouded by my own experiences, the answer is 100% no.  If anything I would be more the opposite.

Because of family circumstances, behaviour that might not be normal to other families,  would be water off a ducks back to me. 

Anyone on these boards who treats their child in the same way as I witnessed in that Supermarket should be ashamed. If fact, anyone who uses tone and language like that to ANY person be it husband, wife, member of the public needs help.      

I am saying the way I viewed the incident, whoever can believe, or not believe as is their own choice.  

What I saw here crossed the line,  and am going to follow up for my own peace of mind, even if it comes to nothing.  

Last post for me on the subject, I will let anyone who is interested know how I get on.

For me, Clubman's  unhelpful post is as per usual, and am surprised he gets away with what would not be tolerated from other people posting on these boards.


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## truthseeker (11 Jun 2008)

Ive often seen bad parenting in practice but I wouldnt have classed it as abuse - MandaC, Im not saying what Ive seen compares with what youve seen, but I do think its on display fairly regularly.

Last week as I was leaving Smyths toystore a woman grabbed something out of her childs hand and shouted "Leave that alone you little 'expletive', and come ON!". Child tried to pull away and woman then roared "Ill take that 'expletive' money Nana gave you back off you and you'll be sorry then" and with that pulled the child along through the checkout and exited. In the carpark she addressed one of her other children in a similarily foul mouthed manner "Come on - open the 'expletive' car door and stop messing will ya!".

While I think this is an example of bad parenting and its not very nice to see a child treated this way, the children seemed to take it all in their stride - probably used to it. And it could well have been a case of the womans bark being worse than her bite. God knows what kind of people the kids will grow up to be but then again thats a grey area no matter what kind of parenting is in force.

Im not disputing what you saw MandaC, but I think that its probably common enough behaviour. Thats not to say its right - but then again, you need a licence for a dog but anyone can have a child, there is a lot wrong in society and one incident of a woman shouting at her child does not mean the child is being abused.


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## Sunny (11 Jun 2008)

My two cents worth. Unfortunately the incident sounds like the something that can be seen every day. Ever spent any time in Smyths toy store? There are some truely awful parents out there. 
Having said that, no-one here apart from the OP has seen the incident and so if she is genuinely concerned, she should follow up if she can. I don't see why people are having a go at her for wanting to make sure the child is ok. The social workers are the professionals. Let them decide if she is over-reacting.


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## Caveat (11 Jun 2008)

I agree truthseeker.


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## ubiquitous (11 Jun 2008)

Margie said:


> But can you honestly say that your wife would roar and shout curses at your little one?



Yes, on occasions. Sometimes this is regrettable, sometimes frankly we would feel we have no option.   How else do you reason with a toddler who hits another child, attempts to run off in a car park or onto a public road or in a tantrum breaks something in a shop? Obviously foul language is not good, but as I say we are not perfect. We just try our best.


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## Margie (11 Jun 2008)

Have you ever tried time out?  i always did this with my son rather than slapping him.  It always worked wonders.


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## NicolaM (11 Jun 2008)

Margie
Sometimes parents do shout and roar at their 'little ones', human nature being what it is.
It's not nice, or pretty, and doesn't make anyone feel good (not least anyone who might witness it). 
But the extreme response to it suggested here seems over the top (guards/CCTV/social workers/gulag for mum). 
If the aim of  this response is to get help for mum, fine. But it sounds more like an attempt to have a punishment being doled out, rather than help being offered. 
Perhaps I have mis-interpreted the reaction, please feel free to correct me if so.
Who knows what type of day preceded that mother's reaction.
I think a lot of us out there are guilty of 'abnormal behaviour' out there, unfortunately, if shouting and roaring fits that definition.
Nicola


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## ubiquitous (11 Jun 2008)

Margie said:


> Have you ever tried time out?  i always did this with my son rather than slapping him.  It always worked wonders.



How do use time out if your child...
... hits another child in a public place?
... runs off in a car park into the path of an oncoming car? 
... grabs a glass jar in Tesco and flings it to the ground using full force?
... screams and screams and screams in a toyshop or cafe because you won't give them what they want?


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## Margie (11 Jun 2008)

I'm not medically qualified to answer those scenarios.


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## FredBloggs (11 Jun 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> Yes, on occasions. Sometimes this is regrettable, sometimes frankly we would feel we have no option. How else do you reason with a toddler who hits another child, attempts to run off in a car park or onto a public road or in a tantrum breaks something in a shop? Obviously foul language is not good, but as I say we are not perfect. We just try our best.


 
I agree with this - I've had occassions when a toddler is in situations eg running away in a car park or onto a public road where they could harm themselves. In that case you have to let roar to get their attention - no good doing a "Time Out"


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## FredBloggs (11 Jun 2008)

Margie said:


> I'm not medically qualified to answer those scenarios.


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## Margie (11 Jun 2008)

By all means correct the child and if you have to shout or raise your voice when their safety is at stake then do so.  But you wouldn't roar and shout curses at them.  obviously when they get home have a chat and time out not in the car park.

i'm signing out of this thread it's getting ridiculous.  it is not normal behaviour for a mom to shout and roar curses to a toddler. THE END


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## Caveat (11 Jun 2008)

Right.  That's that sorted then.


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## redstar (11 Jun 2008)

Margie said:


> I'm not medically qualified to answer those scenarios.



These are not scenarios for which a medical qualification is necessary.
Just parenting skills.


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## Ceist Beag (11 Jun 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> How do use time out if your child...
> ... hits another child in a public place?
> ... runs off in a car park into the path of an oncoming car?
> ... grabs a glass jar in Tesco and flings it to the ground using full force?
> ... screams and screams and screams in a toyshop or cafe because you won't give them what they want?



ubiquitous cursing at your child only makes matters worse, not better. The solution to all of the above in my unqualified opinion is to take the child (by catching them and picking them up), move away from the scene, and explain to them, in a calm rational voice, that what they did was not acceptable and why. To get excited yourself and curse abuse at your child is wholly unacceptable, I don't care what your excuse is. For the record yes I do have a child myself and yes I have been in a couple of the above scenarios with her. Sure she might not understand my rationale in the explanation but I believe it has had a better effect that cursing at her would have! By all means curse under your breath but never at your child.


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## ClubMan (11 Jun 2008)

Ceist Beag said:


> ubiquitous cursing at your child only makes matters worse, not better. The solution to all of the above in my unqualified opinion is to take the child (by catching them and picking them up), move away from the scene, and explain to them, in a calm rational voice, that what they did was not acceptable and why. To get excited yourself and curse abuse at your child is wholly unacceptable, I don't care what your excuse is.


It may not be ideal or acceptable to some people but is it really an offence worthy of taking down car registration numbers, being reported to the authorities, being investigated using _CCTV_ etc...?

In my experience the "time out" and "calm rational explanation" approaches are all well and good in theory but not great in practice in many real life everyday situations. If some people *always *manage to employ them and *never *blow their top with their (or others'!) kids then fair play to them - they must be the eiptome of perfect parenting. However, like others here I have no problem admitting that I do not.


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## ubiquitous (11 Jun 2008)

Ceist Beag said:


> ubiquitous cursing at your child only makes matters worse, not better.



Do you really think that I believe otherwise?  Of course swearing at a child is to be avoided wherever possible but very few of us are perfect parents and some of us react to situations in ways that we later regret. You are obviously one of those who are lucky enough to avoid this. Fair play to you.


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## TheBlock (11 Jun 2008)

I was trying to jump start the other halfs car last night as she'd left the lights on. Problem was it was parked in the drive and in order to jump it I'd have to move it out to beside my car. The other half was in the car attending to the handbrake and steering (as the drives on a little bit of a slope) as i attempted to push the car out. My little fella whos just over 4 seen Daddy doing "Fixing" and attempted to help. I repeatadly told him not to come near the car as there was a danger of it rolling backwards this didn't stop him so after about the third time I put him back in the house as he "couldn't do as he was asked". I thought that was the problem solved until about 20 seconds later I see the other half making a face at me as I was struggling to move the car. The little fella had come out of the house unseen and again attempted to push the car....With That I let an unmercyful scream at him to "GET AWAY FROM THE (Expletive deleted) CAR".

This would have been heard by neighbours and I wonder if They think I'm a bad parent or have reported me have been mentally abusing my son.

The bottom line is sometimes there's more to stuff than meets the eye or ear for that matter. If I had of witnessed what the OP mentions I'm unsure if I would have done something about it.

What I will say is you can be guaranteed that if it happend in packed supermarket and it was really abusive I believe someone would have made mention of the Adults behaviour strenght in numbers and all that.

I'd be enclined to let it go OP theres not much that will come out of you reporting it other than maybe to ease your own mind.


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## Bronte (11 Jun 2008)

It's very hard to do a time out in the face of an oncoming car and not being able to run after said child while holding a younger child.  You have to shout at the top of your voice, in a very strong definative voice, cursing if necessary.  There is no other way.  Otherwise we are talking a seriously injured child.  Has nobody seen what a toddler can do in a car park. I can't believe the perfect parents on here, I try to be the best I can and I watch all the TV programmes to help myself improve but really being reported to social services for shouting.  Do people realise the real horror stories social service have to deal with.


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## Ceist Beag (11 Jun 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> You are obviously one of those who are lucky enough to avoid this. Fair play to you.



Never said I was perfect - course I lose it sometimes but I never ever swear at my child - it's one of those unwritten rules as far as I'm concerned. Shout at them yes ... swear at them never.


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## FredBloggs (11 Jun 2008)

Ceist Beag said:


> Never said I was perfect - course I lose it sometimes but I never ever swear at my child - it's one of those unwritten rules as far as I'm concerned. Shout at them yes ... swear at them never.


 
I think that would be the same for most of the posters here.


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## Teabag (11 Jun 2008)

I am not sure if it works but I read before that the best thing to do in these situations is to be non-confrontational and say something like 
"Its tough being a parent these days, wouldn't kids drive you nuts" or "Isn't it hard work going shopping with kids".

Supposedly this will calm the situation and give the parent a reality check and some empathy. And at the same time the kid doesn't get a browbeating for embarassing the parent...
I doubt it would work well in all situations myself.


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## ClubMan (11 Jun 2008)

Ceist Beag said:


> Shout at them yes ... swear at them never.


There is arguably little difference to the child. I'd imagine that it's the disposition of the parent/adult that primarily registers with the child and not necessarily what exactly they are saying - expletives or not.


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## ClubMan (11 Jun 2008)

Teabag said:


> I am not sure if it works but I read before that the best thing to do in these situations is to be non-confrontational and say something like
> "Its tough being a parent these days, wouldn't kids drive you nuts" or "Isn't it hard work going shopping with kids".
> 
> Supposedly this will calm the situation and give the parent a reality check and some empathy. And at the same time the kid doesn't get a beating for embarassing the parent...
> I doubt it would work well in all situations myself.


So best practice is not doing nothing at the time, taking down the car registration number, posting on a public discussion forum and then ruminating over contacting various statutory and other authorities? Well I never...


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## ubiquitous (11 Jun 2008)

Teabag said:


> And at the same time the kid doesn't get a beating for embarassing the parent...



Hang on a second. 

None of this is about beating children. 

Neither is it is about punishing children for embarrassing parents.


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## Teabag (11 Jun 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> Hang on a second.
> 
> None of this is about beating children.
> 
> Neither is it is about punishing children for embarrassing parents.



Relax yourself Ubiquitous...I was thinking more of a brow-beating.....I am terribly sorry.....


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## Ceist Beag (11 Jun 2008)

ClubMan said:


> There is arguably little difference to the child. I'd imagine that it's the disposition of the parent/adult that primarily registers with the child and not necessarily what exactly they are saying - expletives or not.



Are you basing this on any research or just your own hunch?


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## ClubMan (11 Jun 2008)

Ceist Beag said:


> Are you basing this on any research or just your own hunch?


The words "arguably" and "imagine" are a clue.


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## z105 (11 Jun 2008)

Interesting link here - 

http://www.heptune.com/tantrum.html


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## ClubMan (11 Jun 2008)

Havealaugh said:


> Interesting link here -
> 
> http://www.heptune.com/tantrum.html





> [SIZE=+1]If the child throws a tantrum in public, carry him out of the public area if possible, and take him to a place where you can have some privacy. The best place to take him is to the car, where he can be buckled into his car seat. Then you stand near the car or sit in the car and wait it out without reacting to the tantrum. [/SIZE]


... all the while hoping that there are no do gooders lurking in the vicinity ready to record your car registration and report you for abuse/neglect/forceful restraint ...


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## Ceist Beag (11 Jun 2008)

ClubMan said:


> If the child throws a tantrum in public, carry him out of the public area if possible, and take him to a place where you can have some privacy. The best place to take him is to the car, where he can be buckled into his car seat. Then you stand near the car or sit in the car and wait it out without reacting to the tantrum. When the tantrum subsides, talk to the child about his behavior, and then return to your activities.



I believe that's pretty much what I said. Clubman obviously I'd argue and imagine differently to your stance - in fact I'd be willing to bet any experts in this field would back up my view that there is a big difference between cursing as you shout at a child or not cursing. Likewise I'd imagine there is a big difference between insulting a child when you lose your temper versus simply telling them off - another line you shouldn't cross in my book.


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## MandaC (11 Jun 2008)

ClubMan said:


> So best practice is not doing nothing at the time, taking down the car registration number, posting on a public discussion forum and then ruminating over contacting various statutory and other authorities? Well I never...



Well, in my opinion from the woman's demeanour, this woman looked like she could well hit you if you approached her.

If you notice I said in my earlier thread, that one of the reasons I did not approach her was I was concerned it would make matters worse for the child.  It was a split second decision, do I approach her or just get details and think about it later.  That was my call.  

Also, I know that had she shouted in my face or put her hands on me (she looked as if she could well do that) I would have reacted accordingly and it would not have helped anyone.

Whether it is best practice or not, I simply dont know. I dont deal with this every day.  You are obviously more learned than myself in dealing with all worldly situations and I bow to your superior knowledge, as I am sure, do most people .


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## z105 (11 Jun 2008)

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Havealaugh* http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?p=646640#post646640
> _Interesting link here -
> 
> ...



Or kidnap !


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## z105 (11 Jun 2008)

> If you notice I said in my earlier thread, that one of the reasons I did not approach her was I was concerned it would make matters worse for the child. It was a split second decision, do I approach her or just get details and think about it later. That was my call



You also said ...



> Last post for me on the subject, I will let anyone who is interested know how I get on.


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## MrMan (11 Jun 2008)

To suggest that you 'somebody looks like they could well shout into your face or put their hands on you and that if you stepped in it could make things worse for the child' sounds like a guilty conscience to me. Nothing was done at the time by anyone so the OP was not alone, but I wonder how many more 'onlookers' are now contemplating getting social services, guards etc involved. I think the OP was upset by what she saw and subsequently upset with herself for not doing anything about it then.


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## truthseeker (11 Jun 2008)

Chances are if OP had intervened in what was already a volatile and emotionally charged situation she would have been at the very least told to mind her own business. The mother may well have gone home and contemplated her behaviour but ultimately its unlikely she would have been to happy to have been publically taken to task for her parenting skills by a stranger. There is really very little the OP could have done at the time.


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## eileen alana (11 Jun 2008)

Manda C - It is very obvious you have been deeply affected by what you witnessed at the shop and I think it has also reignited old memories for yourself. You are a sensitive person and it hurts you deeply to see children be treated as such.

Social workers are currently stretched to the limit dealing with the most horrific of cases. They simply will not have the resources or time to follow up your complaint of a woman screaming at her kid in a supermarket. 

My advise to you is to leave it be. For all you know, child protection services may already be dealing with this woman and child.


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## MrMan (11 Jun 2008)

> The mother may well have gone home and contemplated her behaviour but ultimately its unlikely she would have been to happy to have been publically taken to task for her parenting skills by a stranger.



Would the mother be happier to be dealing with socail services or have a squad car pull up outside her door? Which would you prefer.


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## eileen alana (11 Jun 2008)

I don't think its the remit of the guards to bring a mother to task over her child rearing abilities, they would just pass it over to social services.


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## MandaC (11 Jun 2008)

MrMan said:


> To suggest that you 'somebody looks like they could well shout into your face or put their hands on you and that if you stepped in it could make things worse for the child' sounds like a guilty conscience to me. Nothing was done at the time by anyone so the OP was not alone, but I wonder how many more 'onlookers' are now contemplating getting social services, guards etc involved. I think the OP was upset by what she saw and subsequently upset with herself for not doing anything about it then.



No Mr. Man,  and I can understand you thinking that.  

I was firstly afraid that I would achieve nothing and that the child might get into more trouble and secondly, it was obvious the woman was in a very hostile humour and in my opinion there was a strong possibily she might have struck me.I would have reacted back and there could have been an incident fifty times worse.   I know my own personality and reactions and I know that would have been my reaction.

Being a sheep and having anything on my conscience is one thing I could certainly never be found guilty of.


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## truthseeker (11 Jun 2008)

MrMan said:


> Would the mother be happier to be dealing with socail services or have a squad car pull up outside her door? Which would you prefer.


 
Im sure she wouldnt be happy at any of those scenarios but I also think it is highly unlikely that the guards or social services are going to bother calling to someones home because she shouted at her child in a supermarket.


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## TheBlock (11 Jun 2008)

MandaC said:


> Being a sheep and having anything on my conscience is one thing I could certainly never be found guilty of.


 
I don't understand this post? You did not take any action when you say you saw an Adult act in what you have described as an abusive way to a child. You then go onto a public forrum asking how/if you should contact authorities.That to me sounds like someone who if not a sheep at least has something on their consciense.


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## Caveat (11 Jun 2008)

A bit off topic, but the motivation and conscience of many social workers was investigated in a Prime Time (I think) programme a few weeks back.

Prevarication and 'turning a blind eye', even in very serious cases, did not appear to be unusual at all in certain centres/sections.

Given that, I can only imagine that the same individuals would all but laugh at the scenario outlined in this thread.


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## MandaC (11 Jun 2008)

TheBlock said:


> I don't understand this post? You did not take any action when you say you saw an Adult act in what you have described as an abusive way to a child. You then go onto a public forrum asking how/if you should contact authorities.That to me sounds like someone who if not a sheep at least has something on their consciense.




I dont understand the above.  

Because I did not confront the woman does not mean I ignored the underlying issue.  Bigger picture and all that.

No,  I did not ask should I contact the authorites.  I asked IF I was able to do anything GIVEN THAT that all I had was a car no.  To me it is more a matter for Social Services than Gardai, but Social Services surely can not act on a car number.  That was the query.


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## eileen alana (11 Jun 2008)

Caveat said:


> A bit off topic, but the motivation and conscience of many social workers was investigated in a Prime Time (I think) programme a few weeks back.
> 
> Prevarication and 'turning a blind eye', even in very serious cases, did not appear to be unusual at all in certain centres/sections.
> 
> Given that, I can only imagine that the same individuals would all but laugh at the scenario outlined in this thread.


 


I agree with you 100% on this one, that prime time report was pretty harrowing to the least.


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## Blossy (11 Jun 2008)

Hi i have been following this thread all day and am amazed at all the different responses, i am a single mother , i have a a 3 year old boy who detests shopping completely but the shopping has to be done and the hell we both go thru has to be endured once a week. extremely stresfull and there are only so many times u can say 'stop' put it down ' or 'no' in a low tone. I myself can be found guilty of raising my voice at my child in public , but i never would use fowl language or name call my child in a serious manner, nor would i be heard aisles away!  it can only be speculated as to what happened before or after the incident in question but i do personally believe that if the OP had seen it happen more than once than they would have more grounds to make an official complaint. another option would be perhaps to find the owners of the reg, if u knew the make or model of the car or perhaps the car sticker to where it was sold could ring up and ask for a 'service history' or maybe find out more. if u got the name or even address of these people you could make an anonymous call to childline? and let them deal with it, as its the child you are worried for not 'getting' the parent. me personally i would hold back but if u really want to do something go to social services and ask how to go about it, citizens advice will advise and there are info leaflets on how to do so. in all i just hope it was a moms moment of madness!!


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## ninsaga (11 Jun 2008)

OK.. whats the update - have you reported the parent & has someone form the dept come around & taken away the child at this stage.......problem solved right!


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## casiopea (11 Jun 2008)

I too am amazed by peoples responses to this thread, MandaC might be right in what she saw or she might be overreacting.  There is no harm in following up on it though.  Especially as there is a child involved.  A couple of you posted saying you have sworn at your child (when pushed to the limit) but what MandaC saw is different - this was a stream of non stop expletives.  The child also reacted in an odd way she felt.  

Child services surely understand that not all reported incidents are abuse and that every incident needs to be looked at from both sides (the reporter and that of the parent in this case).  MandaC is trying to do the right thing here and I admire her for that.


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## ClubMan (11 Jun 2008)

Blossy said:


> but i never would use fowl language


Quack off?


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## ClubMan (11 Jun 2008)

casiopea said:


> MandaC is trying to do the right thing here and I admire her for that.


So _MandaC _- how did it go?


ClubMan said:


> So - what have you done about this case on a practical level other than posting here?





MandaC said:


> Clubman, will be following up after work.


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## NicolaM (11 Jun 2008)

_"Quack off"_

Bold, ClubMan!
edit: actually that's mean, on reflection! Sorry Blossy


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## Blossy (12 Jun 2008)

clubman:::   i mite call him a 'silly goose' .....smarty pants ha


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## lightswitch (12 Jun 2008)

I actually did confront a woman in Dublin zoo a couple of years ago about her behaviour to her child.  As we entered the zoo at the same time we spent the first part of the visit in the same places at that is the way the zoo is set up.  I finally got pi**ed off with the torrent of verbal abuse she was delivering to a small boy in a buggy who was very pale and withdrawn looking.  I told her that if she continued with this abuse I was calling the guards.  She did tell me to mind my f-ing business but I told her she was making it my business by doing it in front of me.  She was with an older lady who I assume was her mother, tht woman seemed relieved that someone had intervened.  I saw her a few times in other places in the zoo as the day went on, and yes, she had shut up!


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## MOB (12 Jun 2008)

Being a parent is hard work;  Every parent 'loses it' at some stage.  An eposide of this is not such a big problem.  A pattern of this behaviour is a problem.  It is certainly no harm to interrupt such an episode - the parent will probably secretly be grateful.


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## FredBloggs (12 Jun 2008)

lightswitch said:


> I actually did confront a woman in Dublin zoo a couple of years ago about her behaviour to her child. As we entered the zoo at the same time we spent the first part of the visit in the same places at that is the way the zoo is set up. I finally got pi**ed off with the torrent of verbal abuse she was delivering to a small boy in a buggy who was very pale and withdrawn looking. I told her that if she continued with this abuse I was calling the guards. She did tell me to mind my f-ing business but I told her she was making it my business by doing it in front of me.


 
I'm not surprised by her reaction to your intervention but you handled it exactly the way it should be handled.


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## ubiquitous (12 Jun 2008)

FredBloggs said:


> I'm not surprised by her reaction to your intervention but you handled it exactly the way it should be handled.



Indeed. Her initial aggression was probably instinct, but she probably realised a few minutes later that she was out of order. Well done!


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## liaconn (12 Jun 2008)

Mandac, if you saw something that worried you I think there would be no problem ringing social services with the reg no. Even if they don't act on one incident they will, presumably, log the report and if a subsequent complaint is made about this woman they will know there has been a precedent. If the woman behaves like this if full public view, God knows what she might be doing in private.


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## Bronte (12 Jun 2008)

After my last post yesterday I was in the car with the youngest, who incidentally was whinging all the way, I'm used to that, but I was thinking about this thread and lo and behold I was watching a mother cross a pedestrain crossing at traffic lights with 5 rows of cars.  Mother was pushing the buggy and a girl of about 2/3 was out of the buggy, I guess training the child to walk, but half way across the child changed her mind and suddenly ran around the mother, mother gave the child a smack on the bum in front of all the cars, all this in less than a second, I wonder did anyone report that mother to social services, I certainly didn't but reporting it came into my mind because of this thread.  I would not do that.  I think the mother got an awful shock with the way the kid ran around oblivious to the danger of all the cars.  Does this make her a bad mother.  OP you don't know if the mother would really beat her child, if she had beaten the child, than that would be a different matter, I think the problem is that a lot of us are parents and some of us actually dread going to the supermarket, I know it's one of those places to avoid and my kids actually behave quite well there but anything could go wrong and the thought of it even stresses me out.  
For those who have small kids the best way to 'train' them about supermarkets is to go when it's practically empty, have plenty of time, and if they misbehave be ready to leave immeditely and explain to the child if possible why you did this.  You do this as many times as it takes until they learn to behave and the other thing is never, ever ever gave them even one sweet in a supermarket.  Not even once, once and your done.


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## Welfarite (12 Jun 2008)

liaconn said:


> Mandac, if you saw something that worried you I think there would be no problem ringing social services with the reg no. Even if they don't act on one incident they will, presumably, log the report and if a subsequent complaint is made about this woman they will know there has been a precedent.


 
This is nonsense and a waste of Social Services valuable time. Social Services have no access to finding out who owns the car, and it may not belong to the woman in any case. Therefore, they have no "precedent" recorded. 



liaconn said:


> f the woman behaves like this if full public view, God knows what she might be doing in private.


 
There are a huge presumption here based on one incident witnessed by an outsider. Nobody knows how this woman behaves in private, whether she loses her temper in public or not. I'm sure many parents are perfect angels while in public with their children but real devils when behind closed doors.


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## liaconn (12 Jun 2008)

Welfarite said:


> This is nonsense and a waste of Social Services valuable time. .


 
How exactly, is reporting an incident to social services and letting them decide on whether or not to follow it up a 'waste' of their valuable time. If they decide, based on their professional knowledge, not to do anything, then that's up to them. If they decide to investigate further, then presumably its because they feel there might be something in it. All Mandac is suggesting doing is informing them that she saw something that aroused her concern.


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## z105 (12 Jun 2008)

Please put us out of our misery Mandac, did the Gardai raid the womens house with Social Services and take away her child or not ?


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## Megan (12 Jun 2008)

We don't know if the adult with the child was the child's mother.  If she was a child minder would we look at this differently.


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## ubiquitous (12 Jun 2008)

liaconn said:


> How exactly, is reporting an incident to social services and letting them decide on whether or not to follow it up a 'waste' of their valuable time.



Iirc, in at least one of the high profile child welfare stories/tragedies in recent years in the UK, the failure of social services to act sufficiently quickly to protect the child(ren) involved was blamed on the volume of work faced by the staff in question.


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## liaconn (12 Jun 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> Iirc, in at least one of the high profile child welfare stories/tragedies in recent years in the UK, the failure of social services to act sufficiently quickly to protect the child(ren) involved was blamed on the volume of work faced by the staff in question.


 

Yes, but I presume this was due to lack of staff, not because of concerned members of the public reporting what they genuinely believed to be worrying incidents. I would certainly be against malicious reports being made, but that's not what we're talking about here. Obviously, some of the incidents reported to social services will turn out to be nothing, but that's always going to be the case. An aunt of mine in Canada had a child who cried all the time because of an illness. Concerned neighbours, who didn't know her,called social services because they were worried. Social services called around, ascertained the situation and left happy. My aunt was just glad that people cared enough about her child's welfare to take some action when they believed something was wrong.


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## MandaC (12 Jun 2008)

Update on this and I will keep it brief.

There are other complaints.   There may be social and/or addiction issues involved.

Have spent some of yesterday evening and today following up.  Told correct way not to confront. That's all I can do.  Glad I followed up.


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## ubiquitous (12 Jun 2008)

Fair play to you so for sticking with your gut feeling. If anything I have said in this regard is irrelevant to the actual situation, I gladly take it back


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## babydays (12 Jun 2008)

Well done MandaC. 

Clearly you did the right thing, notwithstanding several pot-shots at you.
Shows it's important to follow your instinct while maintaining rational thought!


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## Yoltan (13 Jun 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> Wait until the day comes when you as a parent are responsible for navigating your way through a supermarket or shopping centre with a small contrary child. You will cringe when you remember your reaction to this incident.


 
"Navigating your way through a supermarket??" A bit dramatic!

My parents raised 4 small children very close in age and were very young themselves. They never behaved in the manner described. When we were disciplined (and we were) it was never in the middle of a supermarket screaming like a lunatic. I believe in children being disciplined. If you ask me, parents don't do it enough and that's why society is the way it is. But there's a time and a place and a manner in which to do it. Children need discipline, structure and guidance. And before someone attacks me, no I don't have children and have no desire to have them. But you don't have to be a parent to be aware of what makes a decent person.


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## ubiquitous (13 Jun 2008)

Yoltan said:


> And before someone attacks me, no I don't have children and have no desire to have them. But you don't have to be a parent to be aware of what makes a decent person.


This is  pretty much what our old Parish Priest used to say before he launched into his sermons about marriage and childrearing. It was pretty obvious to anyone that heard him that he knew a lot less about the subject than those to whom he was preaching.


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## NicolaM (13 Jun 2008)

Yoltan said:


> "Navigating your way through a supermarket??" A bit dramatic!


If you ever change your mind about having children (or end up minding nephews/nieces/friend's children) , you might find 'navigating through a supermarket' the least of it! Probably underplaying the experience, not overplaying it!


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## ice (13 Jun 2008)

Ceist Beag said:


> there is a big difference between cursing as you shout at a child or not cursing.


 
93% of communication is non verbal so your tone of voice, the stance you take etc is more important.
I am sure there are lots of swear words that kids don't understand anyway.

Someone mentioned shouting is OK...swearing is not ......I think thats more to do with the Parent not wanting to be heard using expletives ...don't think it makes much difference to the child


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## Blossy (13 Jun 2008)

MandaC said:


> Update on this and I will keep it brief.
> 
> There are other complaints. There may be social and/or addiction issues involved.
> 
> Have spent some of yesterday evening and today following up. Told correct way not to confront. That's all I can do. Glad I followed up.


 
hi delighted if u make a difference! am very surprised and shocked that you were told of addicition or social issues related to this person considering you are a complete stranger to this person. would your social or addiction status be given out that freely to random people???
i hope you helped that family by making the call. i am also shocked a reg could give that much information in such little time! but at least u did what u felt right!


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## Ceist Beag (13 Jun 2008)

ice said:


> 93% of communication is non verbal so your tone of voice



 I love these stats ... really!! 

http://www.spring.org.uk/2007/05/busting-myth-93-of-communication-is.php

http://extremepresentation.typepad.com/blog/2006/09/93_of_communica.html

[broken link removed]

... and that's just from a quick Google search. So let's just say I strongly disagree.


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## NicolaM (13 Jun 2008)

You are spot on Blossy.
All of that information is confidential, and should not have been disclosed.
Even if MandaC was a relative, that information still should not have been disclosed, without express consent of the person to whom it refers.
Information can be shared, breaking confidentiality if it involves Child Protection as far as I am aware, between health care professionals etc,in the best interests of protecting a child, but certainly should not be shared with a person who decides to make a report/complaint.
Nicola


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## ice (13 Jun 2008)

Ceist Beag said:


> I love these stats ... really!!
> 
> http://www.spring.org.uk/2007/05/busting-myth-93-of-communication-is.php
> 
> ...


 
Ok lets say that particular stat is wrong...would you not agree that its not only the words we use but the tone, body language etc that shapes how we communicate?
If my friends and I are together and are having a laugh and someone makes a rude (but Very funny) comment about another person and I laugh and say to her 'you're a terrible B*tch' thats it very different to me saying to her during a blazing row with a very raised voice and anger in my face ' you're a terrible B*tch'  ...the words are the same but the meaning very different.

I could say to a child after he has drawn on the walls and I am going mental and I lose the head and roar 'you little maniac'  ..... or I could be laughing at him when he is diving off the bed like a super hero and say with a smile 'you little maniac'
The words are the same but the child knows the difference due to the tone and demeanour of the person saying the words..
sorry for going off topic a bit


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## Ceist Beag (13 Jun 2008)

ice said:


> Ok lets say that particular stat is wrong...would you not agree that its not only the words we use but the tone, body language etc that shapes how we communicate?



Obviously in those scenarios I'd agree with ye! But how about these ... do you think it would be the same if your little darling drew on the walls and you said in exactly the same angry tone "Don't do that, look at the mess you made" or some such versus "You little f&^er look what ye did" ... would ye consider those the same? Anyway as ye said we're digressing here!


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## ice (13 Jun 2008)

Ceist Beag said:


> Obviously in those scenarios I'd agree with ye! But how about these ... do you think it would be the same if your little darling drew on the walls and you said in exactly the same angry tone "Don't do that, look at the mess you made" or some such versus "You little f&^er look what ye did" ... would ye consider those the same? Anyway as ye said we're digressing here!


 
It depends on whether the child has an understanding of the conatations of the word f**&er....the point I was trying to make was that most small children wouldn't read a parents signals by the words they use (as they may not understand them all) but more by their tone and demeanour. 
When another poster said shouting was OK swearing was not I felt that was more to do with the parent not wanting to be seen to be using bad language rather then the effect of the child......

Of course its harder still when you are using and internet forum...
maybe thats why clubman is sometimes picked up wrongly...we can't read his non verbal cues


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## ninsaga (13 Jun 2008)

MandaC said:


> There are other complaints.   There may be social and/or addiction issues involved.



.....how did you establish that?


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## Blossy (13 Jun 2008)

ICE:  When another poster said shouting was OK swearing was not I felt that was more to do with the parent not wanting to be seen to be using bad language rather then the effect of the child......

my personal opinion on this would be the same tho, no matter what tone or stanse you are using 'bad words' are not acceptable to a child, if a child said the 'f' word, no matter in what context then the child would be punished! so why use that language towards a child???... thats my opinion anyway.


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## z105 (13 Jun 2008)

> Update on this and I will keep it brief.
> 
> There are other complaints.   There may be social and/or addiction issues involved.
> 
> Have spent some of yesterday evening and today following up. Told correct way not to confront. That's all I can do. Glad I followed up



Can I ask who exactly you followed up with ?


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## fobs (13 Jun 2008)

ninsaga said:


> .....how did you establish that?


 

i second that question? What exact steps did you take to report the incident and to whom did you speak that revealed this information?


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## ice (13 Jun 2008)

Blossy said:


> ICE: When another poster said shouting was OK swearing was not I felt that was more to do with the parent not wanting to be seen to be using bad language rather then the effect of the child......
> 
> my personal opinion on this would be the same tho, no matter what tone or stanse you are using 'bad words' are not acceptable to a child, if a child said the 'f' word, no matter in what context then the child would be punished! so why use that language towards a child???... thats my opinion anyway.


 
Totally agree...bad language is totally unacceptable to most people..although there are some sections of society that use this kind of language on a daily basis and its all some people grow up with...I just didn't feel that swearing was so much worse than shouting at a child.

I too am agast that confidential information was given out about this situation and to be honest I am not sure I believe the OP's update...I think it could have been more to assert on this forum that he/she was right and we shouldn't have doubted her ...
Did the garda find the mother based on the licence plate.....surely social welfare would not have access to this information? I find it hard to believe that the garda would go to this effort on such sketchy details....
Anyway, apologies if that is not the case but thats my take on it....


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## MelF (13 Jun 2008)

Just a suggestion to the parents who find taking their kids to the supermarket a huge ordeal, you should consider ordering online and having the shopping delivered? It only takes a couple of minutes to order and is a godsend.


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## Blossy (13 Jun 2008)

> I too am agast that confidential information was given out about this situation and to be honest I am not sure I believe the OP's update...I think it could have been more to assert on this forum that he/she was right and we shouldn't have doubted her ...
> Did the garda find the mother based on the licence plate.....surely social welfare would not have access to this information? I find it hard to believe that the garda would go to this effort on such sketchy details....
> Anyway, apologies if that is not the case but thats my take on it....


 
i totally agree with this statement, i just didnt want to say it like that.  its failry sus alrite!!!


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## Blossy (13 Jun 2008)

MelF said:


> Just a suggestion to the parents who find taking their kids to the supermarket a huge ordeal, you should consider ordering online and having the shopping delivered? It only takes a couple of minutes to order and is a godsend.


 
good point, but not everyone has internet at home! and also im not letting the children, in a way, dictate that i cant go out to the shops because they misbehave.


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## MandaC (13 Jun 2008)

ice said:


> .... and to be honest I am not sure I believe the OP's update...I think it could have been more to assert on this forum that he/she was right and we shouldn't have doubted her ...
> ....



that is rude and is making me out to be a liar, and do you know what,
as Clark Gable said, .....quite frankly my dear I don't give a damn.  

Your choice, your perogative.

To sum up, what I said was.....
1.  There are other complaints.   That is indeed correct.  
2.  There may (and I said may)be other problems involved.  I personally believe this to be the case.
3. I followed up on my complaint.  (one evening after work and the next morning)
4.  I am glad I did this.  

Did I say anywhere that the information was tracked from a Licence plate?   I said that was the information *I* had on the day. Use your loaf.  I am not going to spell it out for you.


Also, have to say at this point, I have had a large number of personal e-mails on this subject and thanks a mill for that.  To those of you who were genuinely concerned, I have tried to give you a more detailed update, which I am not prepared to put up on the boards, for obvious reasons.


Also, I have been posting on this forum for seven years or more.  I have never put anything untrue on any of my posts.  I have posted information on occassion that would show a pattern that my background involves searches and research. I am not going to elaborate any further on this aspect.

Thanks again all....


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## Blossy (13 Jun 2008)

MandaC said:


> 2. There may (and I said may)be other problems involved. I personally believe this to be the case.
> 
> I dont think you were called a liar here, and if it came across like from me i apologise, i would also think if there was anyway you could put on here how u managed to report it etc, or to who? it would help others, especially as other people will come across an incident like this and would like to know what to do.
> 
> ...


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## gnubbit (13 Jun 2008)

MandaC,

I think you did the right thing.  Your instinct told you something was wrong.  Suppose it was a "harmless" one-off episode.  Then that will be apparent to a social worker.  It's always worrying when  a child is quietly unhappy or seems resigned to aggressive behaviour.  If it's a loving mother at the end of her tether then it could end up with her getting some support.

There's a saying that comes to mind (and I'm paraphrasing) "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing".

g


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## Welfarite (13 Jun 2008)

Mandac, can you confirm then, for those of us who worry about such things, that the Data Protection Act was not compromised by anybody (be it in Social Services or another state body)?

I think by stating that you now know "there are other complaints" and "there may be other problems involved", you gave the impression that this was gleaned by reporting a registration number to the SS. If you used other methods to report this incident, fair enough, that's your call, but those of us following this thread can only make assumptions on what you post here.


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## ice (13 Jun 2008)

MandaC said:


> Did I say anywhere that the information was tracked from a Licence plate? I said that was the information *I* had on the day. Use your loaf. I am not going to spell it out for you.


 
I honestly don't have a clue what you are on about 

Sorry if you think I was being rude...I think sometimes people forget this is the internet and we don't know each other and can only go on what we see in any given post....
It all seemed a bit strange to me but I stand corrected if thats not the case...the most important thing is that you feel you did the right thing...but you, like the rest of us, surely know that whatever you write on an internet forum is going to be up for public scrutiny and comment (not all of it always accurate or welcome )...most people know that if they see something like this they can ring the garda or the ISPCC or social services....you don't need to post on an internet forum to find that out. If you do post it then you have to be prepared for all sorts of comments, even ones you don't like.


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## NicolaM (13 Jun 2008)

Welfarite said:


> can you confirm then, for those of us who worry about such things, that the Data Protection Act was not compromised by anybody (be it in Social Services or another state body)?.



Absolutely, Welfarite.
This should even be above and beyond the Data Protection Act, and be in the realms of the _*right*_ of people/patients/service users to have their confidentiality respected by healthcare professionals, if social workers or other health care professionals were involved. 
This is an ethical (and can be a legal) duty of health care professionals. (for example, legal advise may well need to be sought before confidentiality may be breached.)
This is  unless there is a very good reason to breach confidentiality, which even then, is only permitted under very particular circumstances, and should only involve limited information if at all possible.
I am unsure what the case is here, in this incident, as someone seems to have disclosed what appears to be confidential  information to the OP

Nicola


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## truthseeker (13 Jun 2008)

Im confused now. Was the licence plate the defining piece of information or not? 

MandaC - was there other information that you didnt disclose here that allowed you to identify the person?


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## Ham Slicer (13 Jun 2008)

What's all this rubbish about the DPA?

Perhaps the OP went back to Tesco and mentioned it to a mananger re the CCTV etc. and he mentioned there had been other complaints and that the mother was a junkie.  Why jump to conclusions re DPA?

Perhaps the OP went to SW and they casually mentioned that they had had other complaints and that they were looking in to it but it would be difficult as there are substance abuse issues involved.  So what if this was disclosed.  




NicolaM said:


> Absolutely, Welfarite.
> This should even be above and beyond the Data Protection Act, and be in the realms of the _*right*_ of people/patients/service users to have their confidentiality respected by healthcare professionals, if social workers or other health care professionals were involved.
> This is an ethical (and can be a legal) duty of health care professionals. (for example, legal advise may well need to be sought before confidentiality may be breached.)
> This is  unless there is a very good reason to breach confidentiality, which even then, is only permitted under very particular circumstances, and should only involve limited information if at all possible.
> ...


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## z105 (13 Jun 2008)

> Perhaps the OP went back to Tesco and mentioned it to a mananger re the CCTV etc. and he mentioned there had been other complaints and that the mother was a junkie. Why jump to conclusions re DPA?
> 
> Perhaps the OP went to SW and they casually mentioned that they had had other complaints and that they were looking in to it but it would be difficult as there are substance abuse issues involved. So what if this was disclosed.



Perhaps indeed, only Mandac can answer those questions


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## NicolaM (13 Jun 2008)

Ham Slicer said:


> Perhaps the OP went to SW and they casually mentioned that they had had other complaints and that they were looking in to it but it would be difficult as there are substance abuse issues involved.  So what if this was disclosed.


If this is the case, it would be a *complete breach of confidentiality*.
That's a big '_so what_'.
If it were you, would you want your private information 'casually mentioned'? Quite apart from the moral/ethical/legal duty and responsibility of preserving confidentiality(by a social worker) in such a situation. 
Obviously if it was the manager in Tesco that gave the information, there is no issue about duty, confidentiality or anything else.


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## Welfarite (13 Jun 2008)

Ham Slicer said:


> What's all this rubbish about the DPA?
> 
> Perhaps the OP went back to Tesco and mentioned it to a mananger re the CCTV etc. and he mentioned there had been other complaints and that the mother was a junkie. Why jump to conclusions re DPA?
> 
> Perhaps the OP went to SW and they casually mentioned that they had had other complaints and that they were looking in to it but it would be difficult as there are substance abuse issues involved. So what if this was disclosed.


 
Are you saying that if you were identified on CCTV by a stranger, who obtained your name and the fact that you were a "junkie" from another stranger, it wouldnb't bother you, even it was unture?

And would you be happy if SW "casually mentioned" your problems to a complete stranger without your consent or knowledge?


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## fobs (13 Jun 2008)

MandaC - I feel you should give a brief outline as to what steps you took in reporting this matter to clear up how you obtained this information on this family. I would be appalled if any of my personal information was made available to a stranger who decided my behaviour was inappropriate.


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## Ham Slicer (13 Jun 2008)

It wouldn't bother me at all. but where's the breach of the DPA.  I speak to SW and say I saw an incident in Tesco on Tuesday.  They say oh is this re the kid getting abused? I say yes and they respond we're looking in to that, there is a history of drugs there".  I still don't know who the offender is so what's the problem?

Are you telling me that if your house was robbed and the Gardai told you they know who it was but they are junkies and it will be hard to prove that you would make a complaint re the breach of the DPA?  Just interested.




Welfarite said:


> Are you saying that if you were identified on CCTV by a stranger, who obtained your name and the fact that you were a "junkie" from another stranger, it wouldnb't bother you, even it was unture?
> 
> And would you be happy if SW "casually mentioned" your problems to a complete stranger without your consent or knowledge?


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## shanegl (13 Jun 2008)

fobs said:


> MandaC - I feel you should give a brief outline as to what steps you took in reporting this matter to clear up how you obtained this information on this family. I would be appalled if any of my personal information was made available to a stranger who decided my behaviour was inappropriate.


 
What personal information did she obtain? Interesting that there's more concern regarding a possible disclosure of 'personal' information as opposed to the possible abuse of a child.


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## Blossy (13 Jun 2008)

substance abuse or addiction is nobodys business whatsoever, the OP life was not threatened nor was she touched ( re blood contamination etc) by the person in question so it was not relevant to the OP in making the complaint, if me or families addictions (not saying we have) etc was casually mentioned then i would not be one bit happy, the issue here was a childs protection, thats what the OP wanted and hopefully contributed in a positive way to this. if the mother/ lady with the child, whoever she was, was a junkie, alcoholic etc, then that information is not for casual mention and certainly not for a randomers knowledge.


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## MandaC (13 Jun 2008)

Sorry guys, I had a big long post typed and then when I went back to it I had lost it, so will have to start it again from scratch.


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## Blossy (13 Jun 2008)

your keeping us all in suspense!!!


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## fobs (13 Jun 2008)

shanegl said:


> What personal information did she obtain? Interesting that there's more concern regarding a possible disclosure of 'personal' information as opposed to the possible abuse of a child.


 
THey are two seperate issues and being concerned about one doesn't imply not being concerned about the other!!!


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## Yoltan (13 Jun 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> This is pretty much what our old Parish Priest used to say before he launched into his sermons about marriage and childrearing. It was pretty obvious to anyone that heard him that he knew a lot less about the subject than those to whom he was preaching.


 

I have family and friends that have children so I'm around them quite a bit. I think the difference between good and bad childrearing is pretty obvious. It's actually much clearer to people on the outside looking in. For example a close family member who had a child and ruined her from a young age (as in, spoling, lack of discipline etc). This young woman is now causing more problems for herself and her family. It was perfectly obvious to everyone from day one that this would happen. Everyone except the parents. But it was their decision to bring her up that way. Can't interfere. But don't try and tell me that people that don't have children don't know what they're talking about. Absolute bull!


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## television (13 Jun 2008)

Move on Mandy


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## Elphaba (14 Jun 2008)

As far as I am aware a child has to suffer horrible neglect in this country before intervention, case in point recently of child in creche who was clealy been abused,
in short, carer complained to HSE several times but to know avail. Everyone is afraid of speaking their minds, if OP had intervened, maybe Mum would think twice before she did it again...its a hard one, Tesco should have a policy regarding safety of children while shopping, they should provide them with little trollies, something to occupy themselves with, and reward them with a sweet at the till and extra points for the Mum if she doesn't lose her rag!


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## television (14 Jun 2008)

Elphaba said:


> As far as I am aware a child has to suffer horrible neglect in this country before intervention, case in point recently of child in creche who was clealy been abused,
> in short, carer complained to HSE several times but to know avail. Everyone is afraid of speaking their minds, if OP had intervened, maybe Mum would think twice before she did it again...its a hard one, Tesco should have a policy regarding safety of children while shopping, they should provide them with little trollies, something to occupy themselves with, and reward them with a sweet at the till and extra points for the Mum if she doesn't lose her rag!


 
Big difference between a mum loosing her rag in a shop and abuse in acrech``


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## Elphaba (14 Jun 2008)

I was making the general point of child safety in our society, of course you cant compare the two, different levels of abuse, but abuse nonetheless. I recently came across a mum in tesco whos child was screaming, Mum was visbly distressed, I offered to help her with shopping and she was grateful for help, its the Mums who dont care, and just let the child wail away to ear busting levels while she calmly goes on about her shopping that drives me bonkers...


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## television (15 Jun 2008)

Elphaba said:


> I was making the general point of child safety in our society, of course you cant compare the two, different levels of abuse, but abuse nonetheless.


 

I dont see how you can call a loving mother loosing her rag in a shop abuse in anyway. If that was the case there would be a lot of chikd abusers in ireland I d say. CHild safty is an important thing of course. However lumping in all sorts of trivial issues does no good to the real issue of child abuse.


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## Mel (15 Jun 2008)

Elphaba said:


> its the Mums who dont care, and just let the child wail away to ear busting levels while she calmly goes on about her shopping that drives me bonkers...


 
So it's only the Mums who react to a tantrum who care? I found ignoring was the very best cure for a tantrum. Or is it just the noise that 'drives you bonkers'? In which case all crying children should taken out of your range of hearing?


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## Elphaba (15 Jun 2008)

television said:


> I dont see how you can call a loving mother loosing her rag in a shop abuse in anyway. If that was the case there would be a lot of chikd abusers in ireland I d say. CHild safty is an important thing of course. However lumping in all sorts of trivial issues does no good to the real issue of child abuse.


 
Where do you draw the line then? A mum verablly abusing her child, or tugging her along, or choosing to ignore a tantrum rather than deal with it? Are these trivial issues? These types of situations have become all the more common in recent times, is it because Mums are under more pressure. Personally, I find it very upsetting when I come across these Mums, who let their children scream their heads off, with A. No consideration for their childs needs and B. No consideration for other shoppers. It shows a clear lack of understanding and control of their children. If a child is visibly upset, her/his needs, need to be adressesd,
by communicating clearly with the child and giving them you complete and utter full attention by removing them from supermarket until they calm down. A tantrum is not the childs fault, its a lack of communication by the parent. Anyway, I have digressed, children are the most vulnerable in our society and they need to be protected at all times, and parents need to put more fun and thought into trips to supermarkets with kids.


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## television (15 Jun 2008)

Elphaba said:


> television said:
> 
> 
> > I dont see how you can call a loving mother loosing her rag in a shop abuse in anyway. If that was the case there would be a lot of chikd abusers in ireland I d say. CHild safty is an important thing of course. However lumping in all sorts of trivial issues does no good to the real issue of child abuse.[/quote
> ...


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## television (15 Jun 2008)

Margie said:


> Is it acceptable behaviour for a moderator to make fun of an issue concerning a child's welfare. Once gain I'm appaled by Clubman's attidude. mandac, you do what you feel is right, only you saw what happened. I fully support you.


 

I dont think he is making fun of child welfare, but in a tone of humor trying to make the point that parents are not perfect. and not all incidents of a parent loosing the rag is child abuse.


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## Elphaba (16 Jun 2008)

I am shocked that you thinK it is o.k. to say what you like to your child and expect them to get over it...How do you know? Your child learns everything from you, and will copy your behaviour...Nobody is perfect but you seem to think this type of behaviour is normal?


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## television (16 Jun 2008)

Not normal no and wrong yes. But Im willing to say people have thier bad days and on occasion do nasty things they may regret and yes even to thier kids. it does not however mean they should be called child abusers or that children will be permanantly scared emotionally.


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## ubiquitous (16 Jun 2008)

television said:


> Not normal no and wrong yes. But Im willing to say people have thier bad days and on occasion do nasty things they may regret and yes even to thier kids. it does not however mean they should be called child abusers or that children will be permanantly scared emotionally.



Exactly.


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## FredBloggs (16 Jun 2008)

television said:


> Not normal no and wrong yes. But Im willing to say people have thier bad days and on occasion do nasty things they may regret and yes even to thier kids. it does not however mean they should be called child abusers or that children will be permanantly scared emotionally.


 
I agree 100% and as I said in an earlier post most people normally regret it immediately.  However unless you're one of the Stepford parents there are times you're pushed over the edge.  Parents are adults and shouldn't snap - bit tthey do.  It doesn't make it right but they do.

Why i think this thread has brought so many responses is that many have been in the position where you're out with your children, they've been obnoxious you've managed to maintain control, but then they say or do something that pushes you over the edge and you snap.  I know if anyone happened to see me just as i snapped they would form a terrible impression of me as a parent.  But they'd see me on my one bad moment.  I'm a good parent 99.99% of the time - but am i to be judged on that .01%?  I know theres those who will post here that I should never loose control - and I shouldn't but I do.  Once in a blue moon - am I to be judged on that?

I agree what the Op saw seemed very much worse than this - but who knows what went before or after it?


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## casiopea (16 Jun 2008)

FredBloggs said:


> I'm a good parent 99.99% of the time - but am i to be judged on that .01%?



Nope you are not, as you said we are all prone to be pushed over the edge.  This is not child abuse.   However an observer cannot distinguish what is the .01% from more serious continuous abuse.  So should they do nothing - even if the situation left them very uneasy?

Im no expert on the processes followed by child welfare however Im fairly sure that Im right in saying if the observers' instincts cause them to report the incident this does not mean the bailiffs will be at your door to arrest you.  I guess (but am open to correction) it would mean assuming the correct details are provided that you are recorded and possibly, resources allowing, evaluated.  Only if follow up reports are made would the situation be deemed serious/abuse surely?  I know either way its embarassing - you'd rather not be reported for trying to control a misbehaving toddler - but being reported does not automatically make it abuse or you an abuser.  

I am sure there are many false reports, or rather false alarms, received by child welfare but surely the fact that some are real needs to be focused on?


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## Megan (16 Jun 2008)

MandaC said:


> Sorry guys, I had a big long post typed and then when I went back to it I had lost it, so will have to start it again from scratch.



Could you post back on this and lets us all know how it paned out?


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## television (16 Jun 2008)

casiopea said:


> Nope you are not, as you said we are all prone to be pushed over the edge. This is not child abuse. However an observer cannot distinguish what is the .01% from more serious continuous abuse. So should they do nothing - even if the situation left them very uneasy?
> 
> Im no expert on the processes followed by child welfare however Im fairly sure that Im right in saying if the observers' instincts cause them to report the incident this does not mean the bailiffs will be at your door to arrest you. I guess (but am open to correction) it would mean assuming the correct details are provided that you are recorded and possibly, resources allowing, evaluated. Only if follow up reports are made would the situation be deemed serious/abuse surely? I know either way its embarassing - you'd rather not be reported for trying to control a misbehaving toddler - but being reported does not automatically make it abuse or you an abuser.
> 
> I am sure there are many false reports, or rather false alarms, received by child welfare but surely the fact that some are real needs to be focused on?


 
 if every person was to report a child being chastised in a way they find offencive to social services think of the complete waste oftime and resources that would mean for social services. We are not living in 1980 east germany that we have toreport on each other all the time over every incident.


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## FredBloggs (16 Jun 2008)

On a humourous side of what is a very serious topic my 6 yr old has recently picked up high fiving everyone.  He sayd "Give me five" and we slap hands, then "On the side" and we slap again and finally "Down low" whereupon he pulls his hands away and he says "Too slow!"

We were doing this on the street the other day when a van drew up and a guy in his twenties launched into me for slapping a child.  Before I could say anything my 6 year old roared "He wasn't slapping me!  Mind your own business!"

I just laughed and the "concerned citizen"  drove off - nearly hitting another car as he pulled out without indicating.

And before anyone says anything I'm not drawing comparison between the Op and this person.  What the Op saw was very different to what this idiot thaought he saw. (as to how he could have drawn conclusions from a moving van is beyond me)


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## lightswitch (16 Jun 2008)

"We were doing this on the street the other day when a van drew up and a guy in his twenties launched into me for slapping a child. Before I could say anything my 6 year old roared "He wasn't slapping me! Mind your own business!"

I would say fair play to the guy in his twenties for bothering to pull in, he made a mistake but so what!  He was defending what could have been an inniocent child and should be commended for that.  If more people interfered less of this behavious would go on!  I certainly would not take offence.  I would question though why a 6 year old would tell an adult stranger to mind their own business!!


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## FredBloggs (16 Jun 2008)

lightswitch said:


> "We were doing this on the street the other day when a van drew up and a guy in his twenties launched into me for slapping a child. Before I could say anything my 6 year old roared "He wasn't slapping me! Mind your own business!"
> 
> I would say fair play to the guy in his twenties for bothering to pull in, he made a mistake but so what! He was defending what could have been an inniocent child and should be commended for that. If more people interfered less of this behavious would go on! I certainly would not take offence. I would question though why a 6 year old would tell an adult stranger to mind their own business!!


 
I was surprsied he said that too - but pleased in the circumstances.  He is not a cheeky child and has never said anything like that before.   Better he say it than be defferential to an obnoxious stranger. 

ASs for the guy driving the van - he was gagging for a fight. When he launched into me he did so with some colourful language and he leaned out of the van in a most provocative manner and his face was red and angry.  Also I saw the van coming and it was speeding along -   and it screeched to a halt beside us so I don't know how he could have taken in what was happening.  and he wasn't on a second pass of us as the street was fairly quiet and my son had only started high fiving.


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## car (16 Jun 2008)

> I would question though why a 6 year old would tell an adult stranger to mind their own business!!



Are you asking how that 6 yr old is being brought up so that they can talk to an adult like an adult? Sounds to me as that 20 something needed to be told  exactly what he was told.    

If a 20 something cant judge whats a harmless game and what isnt, where does it stop?  You're advocating a knock on the door from social services every time you see someone high 5 their child, just to be on the safe side, like.


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## liketoknow (16 Jun 2008)

this thread has gone so far off topic, maybe mandac doesnt need to justify herself to any of you hence the reason she has chosen not to post again with  an update considering the way she was treated when she did post.


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## lightswitch (16 Jun 2008)

Car, I wouldn't call that talking to an adult like an adult, I would call that being rude and inappropriate from a 6 year old!  

"If a 20 something cant judge whats a harmless game and what isnt, where does it stop? You're advocating a knock on the door from social services every time you see someone high 5 their child, just to be on the safe side, like."

Thats simply not worth my while replying to!!


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## car (16 Jun 2008)

> Car, I wouldn't call that talking to an adult like an adult, I would call that being rude and inappropriate from a 6 year old!



It was probably more appropriate that the 6 yr old said it, as it demonstrated that the child was fully aware of the situation, and in fact more so, then that 20 something.   If what the child said didnt demonstrate immediately what the situation was to the adult, then little else would have.




> "If a 20 something cant judge whats a harmless game and what isnt, where does it stop? You're advocating a knock on the door from social services every time you see someone high 5 their child, just to be on the safe side, like."
> 
> Thats simply not worth my while replying to!!



Ok then, in your previous post you said


> If more people interfered less of this behavious would go on!  I certainly would not take offence


Can you elaborate on what you mean by interfere? if I ruffle my daughters hair on the street (or high 5 her, great game by the way) should I be asked by half a dozen people am I abusing her and expect a call from social services?  Is all physical contact by an adult or a child to be queried? 
As previously stated,  if everything is reported,  the real cases would be lost amongst the false ones due to volume of work for whats already an understaffed area.


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## casiopea (17 Jun 2008)

television said:


> if every person was to report a child being chastised in a way they find offencive to social services think of the complete waste oftime and resources that would mean for social services. We are not living in 1980 east germany that we have toreport on each other all the time over every incident.



I agree, and how often when you see a child be chastised do you feel uncomfortable? I have seen mums lose it with their children and I have never felt like Im going to ring child services, this is different to seeing something that makes you feel uncomfortable.  You are assuming that MandaC has misinterpreted this situation - if she felt uncomfortable about the situation and felt it was more than a frazzled parent and an unruly child then she is right to do something about it - as you said - we are not living in 1980 East Germany.


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## z105 (17 Jun 2008)

I for one am up for closing this thread now for 2 reasons -

Mandac will or can not answer the questions asked earlier about how/who she reported the initial incident 

It is gone way off topic.

If Mandac wants to bring it back on topic by answering the above fair enough, if not it has been a complete waste of everyones time and the thread should be closed.


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## MandaC (17 Jun 2008)

To summarise, I have already given an update on what I did on the boards, if you read through the replies.  There has been no further developments since then.  The incident *was* reported to the relevant authorities.
It is now up to them to follow up.   Whether people like it or not,  or believe it or not, that was and still is the update.   I dont the need to defend my position or character any further and in that respect will not be making any further comments on it.

It *has* been a waste of time for everyone who got hung up over the data commissioner (FYI not even involved) or used any information given as fodder to make unhelpful digs.  It *has not* been a waste of time for me, as I have followed through on an incident which was concerning enough for me to follow up on,  that is the crux of the matter.

Thanks to all who took the time to respond to me both on the board and personally. Your genuine personal responses were very much appreciated.

I also think the thread has run its course  (from my original question) and have no problem in seeing it closed either.


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## fobs (17 Jun 2008)

Havealaugh said:


> I for one am up for closing this thread now for 2 reasons -
> 
> Mandac will or can not answer the questions asked earlier about how/who she reported the initial incident
> 
> ...


 
I agree. I feel MandaC should give a briedf outline of what steps she took to report the incident (might be helpful to others) otherwise this thread should be locked as totally gone off topic.


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## ubiquitous (17 Jun 2008)

If she doesn't want to elaborate, that is her right.  

Its long past time to shut this thread. Its also highly debatable whether the subject was a suitable one for discussion in the first instance. I certainly hope that the parent in question hasn't read it.


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## Sue Ellen (17 Jun 2008)

Thread closed.


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