# Employer tracking arrival and departure time



## Dipper (3 Sep 2010)

Just wondering if anyone can advise on this:
My employer has brought in a sign in and out sheet onto which all employees have to sign their names and arrival and departure times to work each day. It is supposedly required for health and safety reasons, and for the working time regulations. Is this normal and allowable?


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## becky (3 Sep 2010)

Perfectly normal and required under law.  The orgainisation of working time act states that inspectors can ask for attendance records.  

We have flexi time sheets (couldn't aford the clock) so I use this to track their times.


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## Dipper (3 Sep 2010)

Thanks becky. Does it matter that it's a school, so our working hours are fairly obvious and easy to track?


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## becky (3 Sep 2010)

I'm not aware of any exceptions.


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## millieforbes (4 Sep 2010)

becky said:


> I'm not aware of any exceptions.


 

I agree. required by law for all


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## Orga (4 Sep 2010)

Dipper, what have experienced is not required by law and certainly not by 1997 Organisation of Working Time Act. The other posters are in error because they are misunderstanding the act. Section 25 of the Act requires an employer to keep records (link here http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/act/pub/0020/print.html#sec25) but this does not mean that an employer may automatically require you to use a sign in and sign out sheet. This procedure (sign in and sign out/clock in/out) was suggested one of the points in the previous social partnership agreement for a number of roles. To get the various State employees in these roles to agree to this change in work practice it was linked to a salary increase. One particular role (IoT technicians) refused to accept the practice and while they did not receive the pay increase the clock in/out system has never been implemented. The posters on here did not correctly represent the legal situation. Also, under the 1998 and 2003 data protection acts the information collected by this means is classified as personal data and you have an entitlement to know the purpose for which it is being collected. So, if you have been told it is for health and safety reasons (which does have some credence) and to comply with the working time act (which does have credence but doesn't mean that it can be imposed) and you do not believe that these are the purposes then you should ask for a written statement and you should be aware that the data cannot be used for any other purpose such as bringing disciplinary procedures against someone. Also, there is a wide range of requirements that attach to such data such as the length of time for which it is retained. For example, if the health and safety reason is to ensure that in the event of a fire there is a log of everyone on the premises then there would be no need to retain the data after say a week. You may ask your employer to outline the data retention policy and should you have a complaint about how your data is being managed you may refer it to the Office of the Data Protection Commissioner at www.dataprotection.ie.


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## ajapale (4 Sep 2010)

Hello Dipper,

What does your trade union have to say about this new practice which is being introduced?

aj


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## Caveat (6 Sep 2010)

millieforbes said:


> required by law for all


 
I wouldn't regard this as an accurate statement.

Hardly "required by law" - plenty of businesses (including my own) don't operate this.

Are you saying they are breaking the law?


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## greenfield (6 Sep 2010)

As I understand it you are breaching the organisation of working time act if you do not keep records of the hours worked by employees. The employer is obliged to maintain the records but can request the staff to sign in and out.   There are some exemptions when there are clocking in facilties and some exemptions for recording rest breaks but generally employers are obliged to maintain these records.


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## seantheman (6 Sep 2010)

Dipper said:


> Thanks becky. Does it matter that it's a school, so our working hours are fairly obvious and easy to track?


 
Just because it's a school and the hours are fixed doesn't mean that all staff are there when they are supposed to be. If you fulfill your weekly requirement of hours, i can't see the problem. Maybe they are trying to address a poor attendance issue with certain staff.


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## Orga (6 Sep 2010)

greenfield said:


> The employer is obliged to maintain the records but can request the staff to sign in and out.



Yes, employers are required to maintain records and yes, they may request employees to participate in sign in/out but unless it's a condition of employment then they may not unilaterally impose it as a condition of employment nor may they invoke a disciplinary action against an employee who fails to comply with sign in/out.



seantheman said:


> Just because it's a school and the hours are fixed doesn't mean that all staff are there when they are supposed to be. If you fulfill your weekly requirement of hours, i can't see the problem. Maybe they are trying to address a poor attendance issue with certain staff.



If there is an attendance problem with staff then this is not the correct vehicle to address it.


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## millieforbes (6 Sep 2010)

Caveat said:


> I wouldn't regard this as an accurate statement.
> 
> Hardly "required by law" - plenty of businesses (including my own) don't operate this.
> 
> Are you saying they are breaking the law?


 

ok admit I was probably a little loose with language there.

my understanding is that it is a requirement of the Working Time Act that times worked are recorded and I wasn't aware of any exceptions. 

having said this, I also realise that many employers aren't necessarily aware of this and may not have implemented the requirement


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## Mpsox (7 Sep 2010)

Regardless of the Working time Act, it is prudent of any employer to have a record of who is actually in the building at any time on grounds of Health and Safety. For example, in my own companies evacuation procedures, it's part of the nominated fire marshalls roles to take these sheets as they leave the building for when we do a headcount. If it is being kept for H&S however, I would expect everyone, (managers etc) to sign in as well

I really don't understand what the big deal is here anyway, I've never worked in an organisation where some record of time-keeping wasn't kept. It can actually be in an employees benifit if for example, there was an issue regarding overtime being paid or if an employee was being unfairly disciplined grounds of time-keeping, when the records might say otherwise


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