# "Pure H2O" water filtration system - fact or myth?



## NOAH (27 Sep 2006)

Just a had a demo to show how bad my water is and a taste of a sample of treated water by Pure H2O. 

Has anyone got this system and is it any good? 

I would have been far more impressed if the demo had filtered my existing water and proved how good that was after filtration. I was always told that it was essential to drink untreated water as this was the way of improving or maintaining the immune system. 

I also think if it is this good  then the whole country should be on it for the supposed health benefits.

help

Noah


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## NOAH (30 Sep 2006)

*Re: pure H20 - fact or myth?*

thanks all, the cost is probably on the web so here goes, it can be taken off if necessary,  it starts at 2580 for everything, then u pay an annual charge of 137.00, I thnk filters are extra but not sure. However if you sign up now you get a 23% discount so it is 2,000.

The test is as follows.

1. fill a glass with water from your tap,

2. fill another glass with  pure h20 water from a flask the rep has.

3. Now place the 2 glassess side by side and insert a gadget with 2 prongs for each glass.

4.  introduce an electrical current.

5. pure water is a poor conductor of electrical current

6.  polluted water is full of diluted solids and the electrical current agitates these so that they dissolve in the water and turn the water black whereas the pure h20 stays crystal clear.  So voila there you go.

I would have prefferred if they brought a portable filter system and filtered my tap water there and then to show the difference. But I'm a cynic. 

The health benefits of pure are many and if as good as they say it should be mandatory to have the system in every house, save a fortune on the health service.

noah


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## Wexfordman (30 Sep 2006)

*Re: pure H20 - fact or myth?*

Absolute clap trap,

I had one of those guys around and he started getting angry with us when we were not jumping to buy this overpriced over hyped bucket of sh£$te!!. The presentation is purely about scare tactics and little or no fact. My water was not tested as he claimed. 

 The test they do is complete rubbish, so what if there are solid matters in your water, such as minerals etc. What matters is what bacteria, if any, what quantites, and also what specific polutants if any. A test that turns your water cloudy and then asks you to fork out 2 and a half grand is a joke.

In my opinion, dont touch these guys. Spend 100 or 150 euros to get your water properly tested to get the real facts about how good or otherwise your water is. THen, if there is a problem with your water, shop around for a filter that will remove the specific issues from your water.

Anyone who forks out 2.5k to a guy who calls around and tells them simply your water is full of contaminents needs is being very sadly misguided and I think ripped off.

Wexfordman

Wexfordman


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## Leo (1 Oct 2006)

*Re: pure H20 - fact or myth?*

Agreed, comparing your water with some mysterious liquid from a flask sounds like a marketing con. Also funny how the unusual 23% discount brings the price to a nice round 2k, another marketing trick to pressure you into making a decision quickly without giving it the proper thought. What is the annual charge for?
Leo


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## Tones (2 Oct 2006)

*Re: pure H20 - fact or myth?*

we got H20 installed just for the tap in the kitchen for drinking water from H20. very overpriced where as other suppliers would fit a filter for the whole house for nearly the same price if not less. perfectwater


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## Crea (2 Oct 2006)

*Re: pure H20 - fact or myth?*

We had one of these guys call to us. Our water went all murky but the salesman couldn't answer if this was caused by pollutants or just minerals in the water. I now that we have alot of iron in our water so I was guessing that that had more to do with the murkiness of the water. We would need a whole house system fo this. As well as that you can't used softened water for babies bottles so it's a good idea to leave a tap filter free in the house.
Wasn't impressed with H2O and we didn't even get our free gift.

Does anyone know where to get our water independently tested?


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## jem (3 Oct 2006)

*Re: pure H20 - fact or myth?*

We got a water softner fitted by a local plumber 18 months ago cost- under 1000, slightly less than quoted above.


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## kyote00 (3 Oct 2006)

*Re: pure H20 - fact or myth?*

The best advice is to get the water tested by a professional water test company. This used to be done by your local council but was outsourced to  private companies.

We have a well based water system so needed to get the test done. They give a detailed clinical report on whats in your water.Once you know that you have a  good idea what you need to fix.

In general, you will want to see what
 1) minerals (dissolved) are in your water.
2) choliforms (total or fecal). Total for degraditing vegatation and fecal from ingress of sewage. You dont want either of these....
3) hardness of water

In the end, we opted for a water softener,UV light and a water purifier. Total cost was about 3.2k. 
Water is now excellent --- note I had the water retested about 3 months after the installation to make sure it was working ok....


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## wheels (23 Nov 2007)

*Re: pure H20 - fact or myth?*

My parents had a guy call out last night and demonstrate this system to them. I was sickened by the whole process. I was just in the door and he started having a go at me for buying bottled water and that bottled water is filthy. Whatever he did though it worked because my parents have agreed to invest. I'm slightly concerned so if anyone has any other information about the system I would greatly appreciate it.


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## davidoco (23 Nov 2007)

*Re: pure H20 - fact or myth?*

I'm on a public water supply and fitted one of these three months ago.

http://www.reverseosmosis.ie/product_1.htm cost €250 delivered to your door by courier. Self install.  

It's a great piece of kit and the five stages of filtering give great tasting water and perfect for tea and coffee compared to using water straight from the mains tap.


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## Wexfordman (23 Nov 2007)

*Re: pure H20 - fact or myth?*



wheels said:


> My parents had a guy call out last night and demonstrate this system to them. I was sickened by the whole process. I was just in the door and he started having a go at me for buying bottled water and that bottled water is filthy. Whatever he did though it worked because my parents have agreed to invest. I'm slightly concerned so if anyone has any other information about the system I would greatly appreciate it.



Wheels,
The guy obviously frightened your parents into buying it. The called to my house, and "tested" my water to the effect it turned a horrible orange/brown colour, but when pressed the guy could not say what was in it, and if it was harmfull or not, he was talking through his arese as far as I'm concerned.

Tell your parents to go and get their water tested by someone independent, who are only interested in testing your water, and not in selling you an over-priced over hyped gadget that they probably don't need. 

If the test shows that there are problems, then they should go about getting a water treatment solution, but not because some gy knocked on the door and said they need it. We all know he was going to say that before he even walked in the door.
Wexfordman


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## bartbridge (23 Nov 2007)

*Re: pure H20 - fact or myth?*

Pure H2O are known by a number of local authorities for using this "test" to try and scare people into buying their systems. Do not do buy their system, it is over priced and not of any use...


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## ajapale (23 Nov 2007)

*Re: pure H20 - fact or myth?*



NOAH said:


> insert a gadget with 2 prongs for each glass.


 
This is the old "Jam Jar" Scam and which has been mentioned here several times before. Try googling combinations of the following words "water quality jam jar scam". 

If your water will conduct electricity so the copper out of one of the prongs will go into solution discolouring the water. The sample does not conduct electricity so nothing will go into solution to discolour the sample water (probably Reverse Osmosis water or maybe even distilled water).

[broken link removed]


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## domadd (23 Nov 2007)

I had this system installed almost 2 years ago and find it very good. The water is good and there is no bad (chlorine type) taste on tea brewed. In fact I notice the difference when I go and have tea in some of my neighbours houses. The annual fee is to give you peace of mind in knowing that an engineer will call and make good any defect including filter. This add explains all
[broken link removed].

I have nothing to do with PureH2O apart from being a customer.  I thought it was very expensive installation but looking back now I am happy we have it installed and use it daily. Have not bought one bottle of water since installation. 

We all have different choices to make in life! Use this  facility wisely and if you are happy with what you have got then its an easy choice to make


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## AlastairSC (24 Nov 2007)

I had the demo last night. Tests as described earlier but extra one which claims to measure bacterial contamination. Our water was okay so I didn't buy - didn't feel under any pressure to do so. Said to him I would put up his company on my favourite bulletin board - take a bow Brendan - and see what the feedback was. Saw this thread then. The E137 is an annual service charge for replaceable parts etc.  

Their guarantee says that no other filtering system has the number of stages/ takes 99.99% of "stuff" out of the water and if anyone can find one that does they will give you your money back and you can keep the system. Quite something to put in writing. Another poster paid over three grand for a kit, if I read the post aright. 

With this in mind is anyone prepared to say that a self-install kit e.g. the reverse osmosis kit mentioned above, is as good?


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## wheels (6 Dec 2007)

My parents went ahead and got the system installed, and I have to say I'm impressed. The difference in the water is fantastic, they also did a neat job of installing it. It does however seem to be slightly acidic if that makes sense, I notice when I drink it that it makes me gassy.


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## Lyndy (15 Dec 2007)

The company is currently working its way around Ireland and reached our house today.


He claimed to be offering free water tests for his own research needs and did not mention that he was selling a product.  He will undoubtedly return later with the sales pitch.

The water test used does NOT test water safety as their documentation attempts to lead people into believing.

I’m sure that there will be many unfortunate people who they will conn into purchasing their overpriced filtration system but don’t let yourself be one of them.

If they claim that your water is unsafe to drink, simply ask for it in writing to send to the Council.


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## ajapale (15 Dec 2007)

Aslo see here: Water Survey


This is an interesting article [SIZE=-1]*[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]

[/FONT]*[/SIZE]





> *[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]UNMASKING          THE MYTHS OF REVERSE OSMOSIS[/FONT]*​ *[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular][SIZE=-1]Every          year, thousands of concerned homeowners invest hundreds of dollars in          a reverse osmosis system. Virtually all of these individuals purchase          these R/O systems not knowing some very important facts about the system.
> 
> [/SIZE][/FONT]* *[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]MYTH          #1: [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular][SIZE=-1]Reverse          osmosis water costs you only a few pennies a gallon to produce.[/SIZE][/FONT]*
> *[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]TRUTH#1:[/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular] [SIZE=-1]To preserve          any reasonable or moderate percentage of water purity(compared to manufacturer's          claims), major portions of the system must be changed on a frequent basis.[/SIZE][/FONT]*
> ...


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## theplumber (23 Jan 2008)

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I am opposed to the use of the "Precipitator Test" to misrepresent the quality of bottled, purified or mains tap water and would like to see an end to end this practice. currently used in the Dublin area by high pressure water-filter salespeople.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]It is claimed that some filter systems like reverse osmosis reduce the essential minerals in drinking water.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Water undertakings treat and monitor the relatively cool and clean mains water.[/FONT]

Filtering mains water may occasionally be justified this is best done by a regularly replaced jug filter which can be left in the refrigerator.

I prefer cool water with essential minerals and pond life.
Certainly not water strained through a bacteria laden soup that has been stored at room temperature for days on end.(Filter)

I do have to advise removal of installations when they are shoved into a small press with a central heating boiler


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## Gautama (23 Jan 2008)

Is "Pure H2O" a brand?  Or are we talking H2O as in water with no impurities?  Is this not the same as distilled water?  Is this not dangerous to drink?

I can't believe people spend so much on bottled water, mineral water, spring water, etc, with all these "healthy" extras.  Now the trend is for no extras.

This planet badly need a reality check, or maybe another Perrier incident.


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## yella (24 Jan 2008)

I installed an RO system aboyt 6 years ago. I bought direct from Taiwan with several years worth of filters. It was about £400 at the time.  The model is excellent and still available. http://www.pure-pro.com/ro103tds.htm


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## PatB71 (7 Mar 2008)

I know I`m probably restating alot of stuff here but just needed to add to the list of complaints re this company.

We recently had one their salesmen out to the house for a demo..did the "precipatator test" and of course the water turned brown when I asked what caused this he told me it was because the water was contaminated due to human waste, asbestos, e-coli etc.and that was the reason for the discoloration (see previous ref. to Jam Jar scam).

He told me that for every 5 call's they do 3 of those get a discount and that I was one of the "lucky" 3. When we told him we'd have to think about it he told me that he'd have to have the paperwork signed there and then with a €100 deposit or else we`d not get the discount and the price would go from €2,100 up to €2,700. Also he made no mention of maintenace fee until I did so ,which is €110 per year.

I`m not saying that the product doesn`t work I`m sure it does but this hard sell and scare tactic selling can`t be condoned, we probably would have bought the product on its merits but not now and not from this company.

We contacted the Council and they said that they had similiar calls some time ago re this company and their "contaminated" water claims and they had no hesitation in recommending an independent lab. to test the water which they had done for the other people who had been told the same as me. 

Don`t know the cost of test but sounds like definite investment before buying any of these systems.


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## Froggie (12 Mar 2008)

I am doing a water treatment course at the moment as part of my job. Today we were told that if you drink pure water you will become ill, because there are no salts in the pure water it will leech the salts out of your body and cause dehydration. So if you do get a system fitted dont include the drinking water, you can put a seperate filter on that line that removes solids but not salts. BTW an earlier post spoke of a system he bought for €250, a company offered me the exact same system for €1690 the other day, fitted and guaranteed of course. Tread carefully.


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## Simeon (13 Mar 2008)

What Froggie just said is very interesting. How come nobody in the medical world has written a paper on this?


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## Seagull (13 Mar 2008)

Froggie said:


> I am doing a water treatment course at the moment as part of my job. Today we were told that if you drink pure water you will become ill, because there are no salts in the pure water it will leech the salts out of your body and cause dehydration.


Assuming you're living on a diet of water only, and not getting any minerals or salts from your food.


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## mattcanty (3 Apr 2008)

I bought one of these systems two years ago, so far no problem. I was told to change the filter myself and not to bother with the maintenance as this is all they do. Does anybody know what type of filter is required and where I can get one in the Cork area???


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## kippy (10 Apr 2008)

Hmmmm,
Girlfriend had the guy over this evening. He left the sample of water and I have to say I was even "convinced" until I read up a bit about it.
From what I hear she felt a bit "pushed" into doing the deal (600 yoyo cheaper than "normal" etc however was not informed of any maintenance fee or the need to change parts annually.
Anyway to cut a long story short she handed over a cheque for 100 yoyo deposit, signed all the forms and signed up for the interest free finance.
After reading up on this and researching the "DIY" options, I advised her to see if it were possible to pull out of the deal.
Based on the "hard sell" tactics I can only assume that she may get a lot of hassle pulling out.
Legally, tomorrow, despite having signed the various agreements can she pull out of the deal without any issues?
Kippy


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## Complainer (11 Apr 2008)

Did they give you copies of the forms? Check what they say about cancellation. I'm pretty sure there is a mandatory 'cooling off' period for all finance agreements, so you should be able to get out of the finance agreement. I'd be inclined to cancel the cheque and let the whistle for it.


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## losttheplot (12 Apr 2008)

Don't think humans were designed to drink "pure" water, don't think it occurs naturally. Humans evolved drinking fresh water from rivers, lakes and rain water (which contain all of these "impuritues" and bacteria). This comes from they're site "The best drinking water should have nothing except water in it – two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen exactly as nature intended it to be." But water this pure is not found in nature.

Another quote -"Customers who have purchased an Aqualite water filtration system from The Pure H2 O Company have cited the many benefits, commenting on the pure, clear, pleasant taste, noticing improvements in their skin and general health and wellbeing. In today's busy working environment, people are more concerned with their health than ever. Drinking eight glasses of Pure H2 O each day will improve your level of concentration, reduce fatigue and headaches and leave you feeling great."

Drinking eight glasses of regular tap water would probably do the same. They quote alot of health benefits but these are the usual benefits of drinking plenty of water. 

As for microbial contaminants - there will be some but most are harmless unless you get Coliforms or Cryptosporidium. It takes about 5 days to a micro test on water (longer to identify them) so I'd be sceptical of any quick micro test. The filter may not remove all of the microbes anyway. The TDS meter mentioned by a previous poster is a "Total Dissolved Solids" meter. All this tells you is how much solids are dissolved in the water - not what they are. In most cases it will be minerals. Before they reach toxic levels the water would taste and smell so bad you wouldn't drink it anyway.
We require many of the minerals dissolved in water (magnesium, calcium, iron). Softened water is water where the calcium has been replaced with sodium. It might be more appealing than hard water but with the high sodium levels it's not recommended for infants or those on low sodium diets. I've also read somewhere hard water can benefit your heart.
If your not happy with your tap water this will probably make it seem clearer and purer, I don't know how much confidence I'd have in it purifing Crypto contaminated water like in Galway. You'd probably still have to boil it.

It seems difficult to get reliable info from the web as most sites are trying to sell you something.
From what I can see the product seems to be a genuine product but they are scaring people into using it. Grandparents have been drinking tap water for over 70 years and they're still doing it. That's good enough for me.


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## kippy (14 Apr 2008)

Hi Complainer,
We checked the forms and the deposit is "non-refundable" in the small print.
Cancelled the cheque anyway and if their is any trouble about it I'll make sure that my concern about their selling methods and lack of clarify on "maintainence" are made public in one of the local papers and in writing to some consumer body. It'll be an expensive €100 for them to collect.
Thanks very much for the advice everyone. I cant believe that a company such as this has won various awards for what they do.
Kippy


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## cgc5483 (14 Apr 2008)

kippy said:


> Hi Complainer,
> We checked the forms and the deposit is "non-refundable" in the small print.
> Cancelled the cheque anyway and if their is any trouble about it I'll make sure that my concern about their selling methods and lack of clarify on "maintainence" are made public in one of the local papers and in writing to some consumer body. It'll be an expensive €100 for them to collect.
> Thanks very much for the advice everyone. I cant believe that a company such as this has won various awards for what they do.
> Kippy



If your girlfriend really wants to buy one of these systems pm me and i can give you a website that sells them for less than €300. Got one myself and they are real easy to install. It's ridiculous the money these companies are making on them and you got to love the line of they will sell it at discount of €2000 is you sign up there and then.


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## Petal (14 Apr 2008)

The best way to judge the quality of your water is to have it tested by a laboratory. The Dublin Public Analyst Laboratory provides such service and this [broken link removed] outlines charges involved.


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## kippy (14 Apr 2008)

Thanks guys for all the details and help.
I will probably get one of these units myself and get it fitted.
Regards,
Kippy


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## centrino (27 May 2008)

I had the same presentation recently, I was told just to test the water and would ring back in a few days to get the results. When they did they were surprised with the results and telling me that I had been one of only a few people selected to receive a gift for completing this test for them. 
But they had to call to the house and give it to me. This was organised and also received a text saying that they want to test the water again and give me my free gift.
Shocked I was to have this wrinkled old <expletive deleted> from new zealand trying to sell me this product costing 2000 euros.
Because of the way this was set up there was no way in hell I would buy this from them even if it gave me eternal life.
<rant removed by moderator>


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## Guelder (17 Jul 2008)

If anyone wants anymore info on Pure H20 check out Joe Duffy's Liveline today..

http://www.rte.ie/radio1/liveline/


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## zenn (24 Jul 2008)

The subject of Pure H2O has been discussed at least twice on Joe Duffy >last week and in mid March because of their pressure sales tactics, high pricing and worrying aftersales.

The co-founder of Pure H2O in Galway - Joe Guthrie from Kinvara ran a well known water treatment company called Ionics ....


As for Pure H2O, Joe  is selling the Aquathin model RO filter which has a manufacturing cost of between 50 to 100 dollars, (dollars not euros!), as it is composed of nothing more elaborate than most other Asian made RO systems on the market except an added DI (de-ionising cartridge - cost about 5 dollars) and some basic flush controls and optional pump.

The system itself is low grade as it has not passed any of the industry certifications such as NSF or WQA gold seal - see NSF.com and WQA.org, which RO systems of a higher quality are rigorously tested for.

The Aquathin organisation are based in Florida, but the manufacture of the systems are from Taiwan, and Pure H2O will never release the details of the original Chinese manufacturing plant or many details of third party pumps, membranes, cartridges etc, if customers ask for these.

All parts are basic low cost Chinese made items, as is the cheap plastic lever faucet costing around 2 dollars. A 2 dollar plastic lever faucet is what customers finally end up seeing and using every day on a system that costs over 2000 euros!  Most other RO systems costing 200 to 300 euros now have full chrome or ceramic designer faucets included. Just gives you an idea.

The H2O systems were first sold for a starting price of under 1400 euros three years ago when the company was based in Powers Woolen Mills in Kilcolgan, and every so often over three years the price would jump by 200 euros to 1600, 1800, 2000 and on to a full suggested price of over 2500!

The whole trick in the selling of Pure H2O systems is an office of around 30 telesales staff who call people up at random from the phone book and offer a "free" gift of chocolates, cutlery, watches, umbrellas, wine, etc and a "free water test" at no obligation to set up a call of one of about 50 unexperienced part time salesmen to get their foot in the door of unsuspecting customer's households.

The sales reps know little or nothing about water treatment or basic chemistry and are set monthly targets of around 200 to 400 euros per system sold, depending on how many systems they sell. 

Staff turnover is very high, and the agressive nature also in telesales in meeting targets and the blunt responses given by most of the public, mean telesales staff also leave prematurely, hence the regular adverts for new replacements every week in the Galway Advertiser.

Apart from telesales, with the fall in the economy, many sales reps actually cold call to houses late in the evening hoping to get their foot in the door.

So what happens when the sales reps get their foot in the door?

The pride of the sale reps tool kit is a twin probe "precipitator" which is a sales aid banned in many states of the US because of the misleading claims made when using it and it is firmly outlawed by the Water Quality Association - WQA.org because of the rip off tactics sales reps are able to get up to by being able to confuse customers.

The precipitator is dipped into a glass of water and an electric current allows the harmless mineral ions of hard water - calcium/magnesium and carbonates/bicarbonates to precipitate into visible solids to give an un-aesthetic look to the water.

Most water they are testing this on is generally safe mains scheme water that has a historically high compliance to EU Water Quality Directives, so the test is a complete con in order to give the idea the water is unsafe.

The EU regs, and EPA, and also HSE concerns are that water is chemically compliant in terms of other things than hardness minerals, these are okay and have no statutory limits, instead they look more for heavy metals, nitrates, THMs etc, all normally in exceptionally low levels in scheme water. 

But beyond this the HSE really put microbial and bacterial concerns at the top of the list, which are the most changeable in any water source and the quickest in terms of causing illness and disease, such as cryptosporidium in the outbreak last year. Pure H2O do not bother with this most important testing parameter, and have no proper testing aids for it, and would not be able to do a test if they had them.

*Water can only truly be accurately tested in an INAB compliant laboratory, either HSE or private, when degree trained chemists and microbiologists are doing the testing with 100's of thousands of euros worth of equipment, which have then been regularly validated and calibrated by an independent testing organisation -ie. INAB.*

Not an untrained and unknowledgeable sales rep with a dip stick at your kitchen sink trying to rip you off by the tune of over 2000 euros, with a keen interest on getting themselves up to 400 euros commission out of you.

The problem with Pure H2O systems is that by adding the 5 dollar DI cartridge, which most other manufacturers don't bother using, is that although it polishes off the last 5% or so of lingering hard water minerals (totally harmless to the body), they get the opportunity to do the false precipitator test to show how clear water can be made, only when electric currents are passed through it, but they do not improve the water microbiologically.

Infact the use of DI cartridges are positively frowned upon in the practice of safe water production because of two imprtant factors ..

1) DI cartridges are a "nest" for bacteria and will guarantee to elevate bacterial colony numbers in the filter system

2) Reduces the pH of the water to make it acidic as all alkaline mineral content is removed and normal / natural water pH levels of usually 7.2 to 7.8 are reduced to below the neutral level of 7.0 and way down below the safe water statutory limits of 6.5.

So for over 2000 euros, you end up with water stripped of its mineral content, that is then made unsafely acidic against HSE and EU regs, with the final risk of nesting bacteria to unsafe levels in the DI cartridge, sometimes venting ammonia which is a byproduct of high levels of some types of bacteria, and often complained about on the Joe Duffy show by angered customers.

That is just a small synopsis of what they are up to. I could go on for hours.


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## zenn (24 Jul 2008)

Forgot to mention about "closing the sale" and "aftersales".

The Pure H2O sales reps are instructed to "handcuff" clients by closing in on them rather harshly towards the end of their sales presentation, however long it takes whether it be one hour or four hours, by asking for a non-refundable sizeable deposit and asking for people to sign a contract, whether they are unsure or even elderly and afraid.

They will ask to escort people to the nearest cash point machine if any excuse is made about not having funds about or cheque book available.

The telesales staff always ask in advance that both the husband and wife are present, again to avoid clients the opportunity of ducking out after the sales pressure presentation by saying they need to consult with their "other half" before making any decision.

The ploy is to get the decision on the night of the sales call and "handcuff" the clients so they have no opportunity to start asking questions afterwards and check up on websites like "askaboutmoney" or compare prices with other systems on the market, to the point where if no sales is made, the sales person gets angry and storms off in a huff, taking with them the "free gift" that was originally promised under no obligation.

Oh, and aftersales ??

The price of the dual pre-filter annual filter change, started at below 85 euros, and then 85, up to 100, then 130 odd, about 150 (mentioned by owner of H20 on Joe Duffy in March) to recent pricing of 165 euros.

These two pre-filters are just a universally available 10 inch polypropylene polyspun 5 micron filter cartridge available elsewhere from anything from 1 euro in multiples or 5 euros in single quantities, along with a 10" carbon block cartridge available elsewhere from 5 euros in multiples or 10 euros in single quantities.

So a cost of anything from 6 euros for two filters which are now costing 165 euros.

The reason for the un-explained price hike from under 85 euros three years ago to 165 euros now, even with a recession looming, is to put people off paying another 1650 euros over the next ten years (warranty period), and when people seek these universally available filters elsewhere, they risk voiding their warranty terms that Pure H2O keep quiet about originally in the sales call.

So systems end up costing anything from 3650 euros over the ten year period, not to mention further prices hikes on servicing running at double inflation every three years, also the added and expensive membrane filter change and DI filter change which there is virtually no mention of in the warranty terms.

Most other Asian made, European made and US made RO systems on the market costing from 200 to 800 euros (often with installation and low service costs - 75 euros) produce verifiably better quality water without the pH drop and acidity, without extreme mineral stripping and without the bacterial contamination of water and ammonia caused by H2O DI or "RODI" models.

Pure H2O must be one of the largest sales rip offs to beset the Irish nation since cowboy builders in the celtic tiger years.


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## MOB (24 Jul 2008)

Thanks indeed to Zenn for a well written summary with checkable hard facts.

I can confirm that Pure H20 insisted on both I and spouse being present for their demo;  I can also confirm that their promo material was very cleverly written, and instantly awakened the cynic in me.  

So, what is the overall feeling?  

Get a decent treatment system cheaply?  

Or continue to drink tap (which hasn't killed me yet)?


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## MandaC (24 Jul 2008)

Glad I noticed this thread.  I had a sales person drop in a sample test kit last week,  they told me to test it in my water and they would ring me.  

Am going to tell them I am not interested now!  

Thanks for making people aware Zenn with the informative posts.


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## zenn (24 Jul 2008)

MOB said:


> Thanks indeed to Zenn for a well written summary with checkable hard facts.
> 
> I can confirm that Pure H20 insisted on both I and spouse being present for their demo;  I can also confirm that their promo material was very cleverly written, and instantly awakened the cynic in me.
> 
> ...




Always buy value for money, whatever the cost.

Value for money ranges from anything as low as 200 to 300 euros (plus vat?) supplied in a box ready to install, from a reputable business, to over 500 fitted with a good clear printed warranty and back up support, to the very high end European, and a few minor US made (but not many) systems that can end up over the 1000 euros mark, but not very often.

When you talk about top end European systems, you should be looking for systems that pass the NSF validation and WQA gold seal certification, also the factory that made them should be in continental Europe or the Nordic countries and have a phone number that you can call the factory on.

Pure H2O systems are a loose bunch of rough looking odds and ends scattered around your sink press compared to some of the all in one European models.

The H2O unit usually has an exposed central filter cluster with pipes and fittings hanging out of it and makes buzzing noises, with a loose pump sat somewhere else on the shelf usually beside the main filter cluster, then there is another dual pre-filter bank screwed somewhere else on the side of the press, and finally another water tank sat underneath.

The whole thing looks amateurish and certainly a mess unless you see what an actual professionally made all in one cased European system looks like.

Apart from the RO system you are looking for, make sure you can phone the manufacturing plant and a separate manufacturer's warranty booklet it made available with their address.

Also make sure the company that supply the system do not break any of the following Holy rules of doing fair and reasonable business ....

1) They should offer a fully priced colour brochure and have a clear and unambiguous website with pricing also.

2) They should never ask for a deposit at any time, and definitely not ask for you to be signing contracts. What's all that about?

3) They should offer a free no obligation, none sales based technical survey if they are fitting the unit and show you the actual RO system being sold in the flesh, with all associated documentation.

4) They should give clear printed costs of all servicing and proof of how consistent their costs have been over the last few years.

5) They should allow you to call any of the previous customers they have sold to in your area, as they should want praise from these customerss, in satisfaction, value for money and back up service.

6) No free gifts or cheap gimmicks should be involved whatsoever. Do not take telesales calls seriously. Are the company loudly and proudly advertised in the Golden pages or elsewhere?

7) Ask if they open 9 to 5, Monday to Friday, or do they have printed proof of 7 day cover with guaranteed same day callouts?

8) Laboratory tests should ALWAYS be done by certified INAB laboratories, either HSE, hospital or good private INAB labs, by professionals, and independently, with you taking your own samples in.

9) Basic, litmus paper tests, and bottle titration or tablet tests at the sink give a rough idea, and a broad picture of some single parameters, but independent impartial HSE lab tests costing 40 to 50 euros for Chemical parameters and 25 euros for Microbiological parameters are by far the best and are subsidised, so are value for money and best in the long run.

10) Always get at least three separate quotes and weigh up what each company are telling you.


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## armelodie (24 Jul 2008)

Friend of mine worked for council and now epa and he laughs at all these 'filters' ,as one poster said ..you'd be better off just getting it privately tested for a few hundred quid. Granted as regards bacteria or water  softness then fair enough, but to install these things just to improve the taste is ludicrous.

Have a look at these dudes on dragons den http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=8-GPiTTAJT8 . 
Same old _'*science*'_ spiel. Like those 'foot detox patches' that turn black over night after 'draining' the toxins out of your body. 
Draining the money out of your wallet I reckon.


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## Seagull (25 Jul 2008)

I had them in a while back to get a quote, and wouldn't go near them. They were way overpriced, and the salesman knew less than I did, and was extremely pushy. 

Having said that, zenn seems to have too much knowledge in this field to merely be an interested bystander. Should there be a declaration of interest, or that s/he works in this field for a competitor?


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## Peeete (29 Jul 2008)

Zenn, thanks for all the useful info.

My sister had a call (to the door) from a salesman the other day. He left testing kit for her and told her they would ring her to follow up. She was telling me about it as she was suspicious with the way they were operating... i.e all in the house to be present etc. 

When phone operator called her they told her she would get Spa Weekend without signing up .. just for testing the water. At this point they had still not mentioned that they were even selling a product. As for there brochure - it has no clear company name on it, no website, etc.

So after googling we found company name "Pure H20" - all they used on documentation is H20. Thanks to AAM we now have full picture!! Do you think there is any way we could still get Spa weekend out of them without purchasing? 

The key is - you never get a free meal in life!


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## Smashbox (20 Oct 2008)

My Dad had a phone call about 3.5 years ago asking if a sales agent could call around, no pressure. So he agreed, and the guy came.

He did that test with the water, and ended up staying hours. Everytime we said we would need to think about it, he got agressive and angry and made snide remarks about all the money we spend on bottled water.

I think after the time he stayed, everyone was so tired and frustrated that my Dad agreed to get in the unit. As stated before, a deposit was needed and he left some cheap umbrella as a 'free gift' for having him.

The unit is attached to a small tap placed at the sink. The water is cold and clean, however there is a definate taste to it. The service price goes up every year, even though at the time we thought the man said it would stay the same. Funnily enough, the two filters always need changing.

If it were me again, I wouldnt get the unit. Its way too expensive and doesnt help the rest of the house for example if you have limescale. 

The only plus side is if you use this in your iron or kettle, you wont get limescale.


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## Maximus152 (21 Oct 2008)

"2580 for everything, then u pay an annual charge of 137.00" oh my, this is basically money for old rope, if you can be sign up for that well, you have plenty of money or else ....what do they say about people easily parted with money . 2580 and you can just buy a ordinary filter for your water which is compeletly sufficien and you don t remove all the good out of the water, pure water is no good for children or adults, you need the calcium and other trace elements, I would nt drink it for free. Anyways do ppl really drink that much water, I dont know, I do when I work out, bust one /two glass a day max. This is a myth about pure water, but you get what you pay for ...lmao.


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## alpine (24 Oct 2008)

pure h20 called out home about 4 months ago.  Same pressure/scare tactics but I decided to entertain him. 

We have a private well and after he tested the water he said it was not fit for human consumption as he had so many PPM impurities etc.  When he was finished I told him we had the water professionally laboratory tested recently and it passed ok.  I told him that based on his own analysis of the water I would have to pursue the lab.  Funnily enough he declined offering his mobile number to pursue this...... sounded so dodgy.  

Makes you angry though as I am sure plenty of people would fall for the story.


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## Darby O'Gill (4 Dec 2008)

Saw this- accurate in my view. I work for a council and I had to assist a lady recently with water test results- she was conned into agreeing to buy 2 of these systems (one for her parents) after the old jam jar test routine. She was taken to court when she stopped the cheque- it was settled before trial by H2O, but I don't know the exact outcome otherwise.

The recent water scares in Galway and now the lead scare have caused people to doubt water quality generally. This leaves naive/uninformed people very open to exploitation.

I think the fact the H20 wouldn't give an interview was significant. The owner was on Pat Kenny today sounding very desperate- I'd say his days are numbered. I feel sorry for the innocent employees, but it's a scam and needs to be ended.....


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## bertie1 (5 Dec 2008)

Lasts nights Tv programme (Philip Boucher Hayes)  on it said it all. It covered the whole topic on RTE & the company . End result , get your water tested by an independant company if you have concerns


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## NOAH (11 Dec 2008)

Just to add my little bit,  pure h20 to drink is not very wholesome as all the minerals as well as the muck are filtered out!  Its a shame that honesty and integrity goes out the window.  greed, now look where it has got us.

noah


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## zenn (12 Dec 2008)

Top scientists are baffled as to what guidelines to recommend for minerals in water.  Even then if they decided on what to do they would not know how limits could be implemented.

The purest water able to be produced in a laboratory at 18 mega ohm conductivity is about as pure as you can get, using tens of thousands of euros worth of equipment.

Live cells would burst if they were dropped into this water due to the natural process of osmosis in the cell walls in contact with the sterile water.

Cellular membrane osmotic potential would draw water into the cell causing the cell to expand and burst.  The reverse would happen if the cell was dropped into highly saline water as the less saline water in the cell would be drawn out because of the osmotic potential working in reverse, shrinking the cell like  dried up prune.

A low grade RO such as the Pure H2O RO-DI would not produce water to this sort of level but scientists and RTE reporters have fears that even cheap RODI systems may have some cellular osmotic potential effects if RODI filtered water is taken into the body.

This is of some debate.  A normal RO with water buffered in the low mineral range is even unlikelier to have any effects, if minerals are at levels of say 5 to 30 mg/L.

Foods are considered wholesome because of a number of factors such as vitamins, nutrients, calories, proteins, carbs, high minerals and a range of other biological food related yumminess.

Water has none of the above except water is expected to have some unknown level of mineral content which scientists in 2008 have yet to consider or agree on what level this should be, and in what combination, whether calcium, magnesium, zinc etc.

If levels were recommended at a minimum or maximum level, then nearly all bottled water companies would be closed down if a limit of say 80 mg/L was adopted. If a lower limit of 40 mg/L was adopted then some lower spring water brands could also go out of business.

Around 90 to 95 % of Irish municipal, public and private water schemes would be closed down also for not fitting into this narrow tolerance mineral range.

If 20 years was given for naturally soft mains water schemes to raise their mineral content to over 40 mg/L, then 20 years would not be adequate, and little or none would comply within this time range, as the basic things such as exceedances in bacteria and nitrates would rank in higher importance and even these things may not get properly attended to.

If hard water schemes containing high levels of calcium in the 200 to 400 mg/L range (as calcium carbonate) then these schemes numbering possibly 50 % of all Irish water supplies would have to go through some form of industrial reverse osmosis treatment process to allow mineral levels to fall within range.  The cost of this pipe dream would not be seen in the next 100 years.

Top scientists will still be baffled for the next 20 years trying to decide upon and give any recommendations but wondering how mineral limits in any source of water can be implemented.

Suggested studies have always come and gone, whether European or W.H.O  inspired.

The subjects of drinking plenty of beer, wine, scotch and vodka along with smoking plenty of cigarettes, eating pork laden with salt and dioxins and a range of other bodily pollutants are things currently under review and have problems in their control and misuse.

Trying to tackle the mineral issue is going to be a tough one for scientists.  The easiest form of mineral adjustment to accurate levels in water is by filtering water on a domestic household level and then adjusting mineral levels by using mineral cartridges after filters.

Maybe not using a pure h2o system for 2,100 euros, but just a normal RO costing from 200 euros.


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## zenn (12 Dec 2008)

Just got this information to throw into the debate ...


*Nutrient minerals in drinking-water and the potential health consequences of consumption of demineralized and remineralized and altered mineral content drinking-water: Consensus of the meeting
Introduction.*

Desalination of sea and brackish water is widely practiced and rapidly growing as the principal source of new fresh water in the world. Water treatment processes including desalination followed by remineralization alter the mineral composition of drinking water compared to water derived from many conventional fresh water sources. The WHO Guidelines for Drinking-water Quality (GDWQ) provide a point of reference for drinking water quality regulations and standards setting world-wide. The Guidelines are kept up-to-date through a process of ‘rolling revision’ which include the development of accompanying documents substantiating the contents of the guidelines and providing guidance on experience with good practice in achieving safe drinking-water. This plan of work includes the development of guidance on good practices of desalination as a source of safe drinking water.

To examine the nutritional aspects of water consumption as part of the process for guidance development, WHO assembled a group of nutrition, medical and scientific experts on November 11-13, 2003 in Rome, Italy at the WHO European Centre for Environment and Health. The meeting was attended by 18 technical participants from Canada, Chile, Czech Republic, Germany, Ireland, Italy, Moldova, Singapore, Sweden, UK and USA. The task was to examine the potential health consequences of long term consumption of water that has been ‘manufactured or modified’ to add or delete minerals and thus may have altered mineral content.

We wish to express our appreciation and gratefully acknowledge the organizations that provided financial and other support for the meeting. These included the International Life Sciences Institute (ILSI); the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency Offices of Ground Water and Drinking Water (Washington, D.C.), and Research and Development (Research Triangle Park, North Carolina); the American Water Works Association Research Foundation; the Center for Human Nutrition, University of Nebraska Medical Center, Omaha, Nebraska USA; and Health Canada, Water Quality and Health Bureau, Ottawa, Ontario Canada. WHO, Water Sanitation and Health, Geneva. WHO European Regional Office, Rome. WHO, EMRO, Cairo.

Expert Committee Members: Roger Aertgeerts, Rebecca Calderon, Gerald Combs, Joseph Cotruvo, Gunther Craun, Jan Ekstrand, Floyd Frost, John Fawell, Ann Grandjean, Suzanne Harris, Frantizek Kozisek, Michael Lennon, Silvano Monarca, Denis O’Mullane, Manuel Olivares, Choon Nam Ong, Souleh Semalulu, Ion Shalaru, Erika Sievers. Contributors: Charles Abernathy, Kunal Bagchi, Jamie Bartram, Leslie Klevay, F. Donato, Joyce Donohue, George Hallberg, Peter Lassovszky, Curtis Morris, Ricardo Uauy, Helen Whelton, I. Zerbini.

In 1999, WHO’s Eastern Mediterranean Regional Office had initiated a proposal to develop Guidance on desalination because numerous existing facilities had developed on a case-by-case basis with potentially inconsistent consideration of important principles of siting, coastal zone protection, chemicals and contact surfaces used in plant operation, water treatment and plant construction , contaminants, water distribution, microbial control and final product water quality. International consensus guidance would reduce ad hoc decision making, facilitate informed decision making and thus reduce costs and allow more rapid project completion. Such guidance would be timely given the rapidly-increasing application of desalination world-wide. In 2000, the proposal to proceed was endorsed at a WHO Guidelines on Drinking-water Quality Committee meeting in Berlin, Germany. In May 2001, the proposal was examined at a dedicated expert consultation in Manama, Bahrain and an operating plan and program were proposed.

This Expert Meeting addressed several health considerations potentially arising from long-term consumption of water derived from water that has undergone major alteration in its mineral content, such that it must be remineralized to be compatibile with piped distribution systems. It examined the relationship between calcium and magnesium in drinking water on certain cardiovascular disease risks, and also health consequences of consumption of fluoride in drinking water.
Background

Drinking water, regardless of its source, is usually subjected to one or more of a variety of treatment processes aimed at improving its safety and/or aesthetic quality. These processes are selected according to the source water and the constituents and contaminants that require removal. Surface fresh waters will often undergo coagulation, sedimentation, rapid sand filtration and disinfection. Ground waters, which are often naturally filtered, usually undergo less treatment which could be limited to disinfection alone. Additional treatment processes could include pH adjustment, softening, corrosion control chemicals addition, alkalinity adjustment, carbon filtration/adsorption, membrane filtration, slow sand filtration and supplemental fluoridation. The disinfectants applied could include chlorine, chlorine dioxide, ozone, or chloramines. Some substances will be added by the chemicals used for treatment i.e. direct and indirect additives.

For waters with high salinity (e.g. up to ~ 40,000 ppm) such as sea water or brackish waters, treatment processes must remove most of the dissolved salts in order to make the water potable. The major methods include reverse osmosis, membrane treatments or several distillation/vapor condensation processes. These processes require extensive pretreatment and water conditioning, and subsequent remineralization so that the finished water which is now significantly different from the source water will not be overly aggressive to the piped distribution systems that it will pass through on the way to consumers. In the course of water treatment, contaminants and some potentially beneficial nutrients will be removed and some might be added. Other waters, although not deliberately demineralized may also undergo significant changes in their mineral content due to the treatment processes.

Remineralization and increased alkalinity for stabilization of the water are often accomplished by use of lime or limestone. Caustic soda, bicarbonate, sodium carbonate, phosphates, and silicates are sometimes used alone or in combination. The mineral composition of limestone is highly variable depending upon the quarry location and it is usually predominantly calcium carbonate, but often contains significant amounts of magnesium carbonate along with numerous other minerals. Quality specifications exist for chemicals and materials used in the treatment of drinking water. These specifications are intended to assure that drinking water treatment grade chemicals will be used and that their addition will not inadvertently contribute significant levels of potentially harmful contaminants to the finished drinking water under typical use conditions.
Charge to the Expert Group

The group was asked to examine several issues relating to the composition of drinking water that has undergone significant treatment relevant to drinking water guidelines aimed at protecting and enhancing public health:

    * What is the potential contribution of drinking water to total nutrition?
    * What are the drinking water intake requirements for individuals considering climate, exercise, age etc.?
    * Which substances are often found in drinking water that can contribute significantly to health and well-being?
    * Under what conditions can drinking water be a significant contribution to the total dietary intake of certain beneficial substances?
    * What conclusions can be drawn on the relationship between calcium, magnesium, and other trace elements in water and mortality from certain types of cardiovascular disease?
    * For which substances, if any, can a case be made for supplementation of mineral content in treated drinking water from the public health perspective?
    * What is the role of fluoride in drinking water with respect to dental benefits and dental fluorosis, and skeletal fluorosis?



This is the start of a proposition of an international scientific action group who are just starting to get their heads around mineral content in water in 2008, and there is another 10 pages of this stuff, which I will try to control myself from littering the forum with.

After reading 10 pages of it, the international steering group seem not to really know where to start, but have a thousand stopping points in complicating the issue of adding or removing minerals from water.

I still think any type of RO system on well water or municipal water is more protective of the public taking into account value for money.

Any brand will do, just don't go paying daft money for it.

Add a mineral cartridge if you like for taste but it is not a massive deal.

A normal RO will render Galway water at 400 ppm mineral content down to 20ppm which seems to just about fall into the international steering group's starting suggestions for mineral content.

Even then, they have about 20 years to decide what they are going to decide.

A Pure H2O unit however has about 0 mineral content unless the DI cartridge is taken off and a mineral cartrdidge is put on.

Hold on ?  They won't be able to call their systems RO-DI systems after this correction.

If they leave their DI cartridge on, and add a mineral cartridge on after, this is a waste of time and an added cost of service that they will still not clearly state on their website.


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## zenn (12 Dec 2008)

dobbo said:


> Sorry Zenn
> ( cc ajapale )
> 
> I started to really value your opinion right until the point you stated you had been talking to an alleged installer of H20. This would insinuate to me and other people looking to clean up their water, you have a personal grudge against H2O which is in conflict to the ethics of this site, now I am really confused who to trust !
> ...





The nation seems to have a grudge after their expose on RTE.

It is no mystery that they were exposed with their tricks.  Decide for yourself what you want to do with your water.


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## cdunne (30 Mar 2009)

Hi.
I just got a call from one of their reps trying to tell me that I`d won a spa break because I took part in a recent survey. I got suspicious when they told me that they would need to call to give me my prize and that we would both need to be here. I know what to say when she rings back later this evening.


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## zenn (31 Mar 2009)

If you do invite them round, check out a few of these things;


1) Ask to see the actual appliance they are selling.

2) Ask if they can prove where all the parts are injection moulded and assembled.

3) Ask if the system is top quality NSF and WQA Gold Seal certifed.

4) Ask for the full printed price up front on a brochure or some authentic documentation or pricelist, so there are no secrets or prices are not invented on the spot.

5) Check if they have a printed pricelist of regular service costs for all things that need to be serviced over the life of the system, plus any periodic disinfection.

6) Ask if the appliance they are selling requires any form of disinfection treatment against biofilm build up within the system lifespan.

7) Ask if the owners of Pure H2o ran the Ionics Ireland company a few years ago.<snip>.

8) Get a few bottles of Kerry, Volvic, Evian, BallyGowan, etc, pour into separate glasses and ask them if they reckon they are fit to drink, by whatever testing methods they are now using.

9) Ask why Pure H2o keep getting debated on the Joe Duffy radio show by disgruntled customers and were exposed on RTE 1 in December on Buyer Beware.

10) Ask what improvements were made to their filter system over the period of 5 years when the price went up 200 euros every year from 1,400 to 1,600 to 1,800 to 2,000 to 2,200 euros, along with a doubling of their service costs from 80 euros to 160 euros and ask if there is any substantial drop in their prices now there is a recession, and does this mean they are going to reduce the quality of the system and the back up service.


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## zenn (5 Apr 2009)

There is no such thing as pure water.

If you spend a hundred thousand euro on the most sophisticated DI water plant for "ultra pure" water production say for semi conductor chip manufacture, and reach water of a purity of 18.3 mega ohm conductivity, as pure as can be achieved, you still have the problem of h2o ion dissociation where hydrogen and hydroxyl ions naturally split from water molecules.

Because of the fact that hydrogen and hydroxyl ions will always exist in every 500 million parts of water, regardless of the water filtration process, then it is impossible to produce completely pure water.

Pure H2o Aquathin sytems comprise of around 100 dollars worth of Asian made injection moulded components, and produce water of a basic DI quality.  So maybe, no, semi-pure water produced by Aquathin filters might not make you ill unless the RO system becomes contaminated.

Because the Aquathin RODI system uses a DI cartridge unlike most other RO systems, it raises the risk of harvesting "nesting bacteria" in the DI resins within the cartridge.

This is a well understood condition and it makes little sense to add a DI cartridge to a domestic RO because of this risk, to only try to get a minor reduction in TDS.

It is better to leave a few minerals in the water than risk bacterial infection, so to think about it, maybe RODI systems can make someone ill if they are not periodically disinfected.  As Pure H2o do not have any regular comprehensive disinfection procedures for their RO systems, then infection is a progressively likely scenario in DI modules.


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## zenn (21 Mar 2010)

ajapale said:


> This is a very interesting thread if you are considering water treatment  systems.





It got quite interesting a few months ago Ajapale !

Pure H2O went liquidated on the Company Register on the 24th of December 2009 !

The website is still there, but no products being sold.  I wonder if the telephone lines are diverting to the servicing set up.

They currently have listings as just - H2o and H2o services.

The servicing operation is now being rolled out more fully and the plan is to set up old Pure H2o customers on service contracts to replace several euros worth of filters each year for something like an annual cost around 200 euros.


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