# John Hayes' Red Card



## mathepac (4 Oct 2009)

I just watched the highlights of the 30-0 defeat by Leinster, but what shocked me to the core was the incident that resulted in John Hayes being dismissed.

Did anyone see it as I didn't have the record thingy on and only saw a brief replay (BBC2 Wales Scrum V)? (not an "official" Sky channel.)

If what I saw is accurate then it was a deliberate, savage and cowardly attack on a helpless player and could mean an ignominious end to what has been an exemplary disciplinary career.

Davies and Guscott, the panelists on the show, called for "firm action" by the discilpliary panel but I can't remember similar comments from panelists when serious assaults on Shaggy by a Llanelli player only earned the assailant a yellow card a few weeks ago.


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## DerKaiser (4 Oct 2009)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTJt1e6k-M4

He'll get a suspension but I wouldn't be rushing in to vilify the man, bit OTT to say it could end his career


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## Purple (5 Oct 2009)

On a broader point; that the hell happened to Munster?


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## Mpsox (5 Oct 2009)

Purple said:


> On a broader point; that the hell happened to Munster?


 
No Flannery, O'Gara just isn't playing as well as he was a couple of year ago, the bull getting sent off, De Villiers taking time to settle in. Still only October, long way to go in the season

And in fairness, Leinster were very well disciplined and played very well,


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## Sunny (5 Oct 2009)

It was silly by Hayes but there is no way he was trying to stamp on his head. He didn't even look down. He deserves a ban and the red card was a great call by the touch judge and ref (people get away with it too often) but it wasn't the worst thing I have seen on a rugby pitch. People are saying he could be out till after Christmas which would be very unfair. The assault on Horgan a few weeks ago mentioned above was far far worse and the disiplinary panel decided he didn't have a case to answer. That was a joke.

Leinster were excellent. Munster look very undercooked considering Europe starts next week. Still, I am not brave enough to write them off!


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## baldyman27 (5 Oct 2009)

Yeah, I think its unfair to say that Hayes deliberately stamped on Healy's _head_. He definitely stamped though and, as such, thoroughly deserved the card and probably deserves to be given a ban that would see him miss two HC games. Hopefully his outstanding disciplinary record thus far will be taken into account.

As for what happened Munster? We were crap, no two ways about it. ROG was appalling, as was Fogarty. I've been a staunch supporter of ROG, the player, not the man, but he really needs to start performing pretty soon. He has been off his best for a while now and one suspects that Warwick didn't agree a new deal just to warm the bench for another season. My suspicion was that Warwick demanded HC game time, he would quite naturally have been accommodated at full back, Earls on the wing at the expense of Dowling. Now, however, with the arrival of De Villiers and ROG's lack of form combined with the emergence of Hurley on the wing, it seems to fall into place more easily. I still expect ROG to start against Northampton but unless he improves considerably, his HC game time could be limited this season (which would in reality be the end of his career) and Warwick will be our first choice out-half with Earls at his best position of full-back and Hurley and Dowling fighting for the wing.


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## Purple (5 Oct 2009)

I agree with all of that Baldyman. ROG hasn’t been good for about two and  a half seasons. I think he needs to be dropped so that Munster can build some options there. He’s been a great servant of Munster and Irish rugby but he’s getting worse, not better.
Leinster were superb but that on its own doesn’t explain the bad lineout’s and the consistently slow ball out of both scrums and rucks.  Even when O’Connell came on the line out was weak and once Hayes went off their shaky scrum collapsed completely.

It would be a brave and foolish man that wrote Munster off but they have a lot of questions to ask and answer.


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## baldyman27 (5 Oct 2009)

I think Leinster were just more 'up for it'. Funnily enough, Munster returned 1200 tickets before the game and the players knew of that and were, quite rightly, surprised at that. Maybe that had a bearing, maybe not. Fogarty's darts were poor and his work in the tight was also poor. When your out-half and your hooker aren't performing, its hard to get any kind of a decent platform. I thought Leinster were superb in the tight, especially Jennings and Cullen. Cullen's punch into the ruck under the posts to free up the ball was wonderful, although how they didn't go over when the ball went wide to the left with numbers over is beyond me. Mushy Buckley was poor in the scrum also, a man of that size should not be turned as easily and as consistently as he was on saturday.


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## Purple (5 Oct 2009)

Remember this?


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## DavyJones (5 Oct 2009)

yeah, completely outgunned and outclassed the other night. Really exciting watching Leinster play, they played like champions. Made us look worse than ordinary. 

didn't see the bull incident coming and he was rightly sidelined. He may miss the AI, mores the pity.

Horgan is making a statement of intent with regard to Irish place.


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## baldyman27 (5 Oct 2009)

Purple said:


> Remember this?


 
This thread should be closed.


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## Luckycharm (5 Oct 2009)

What a great game- was at it. Leinster support was very loud as it should be at a home game. 
Was shocked at Hayes stamping incident as cannot even remember him ever getting a Yellow. I hope he is not banned too long because if Ireland have to rely on Tony BUckley we are F*cked!!!
ROG was awful again - his defence is getting worse he used to at least be a speed bump that slowed them down. He needs to be dropped and fight for his place- I rate Warwick highly currently and Sexton is ahead of him in every Dept currently and has to start in the AI's.
Leinsters defense was magnificent- Rocky who? Mclaughlin had a great game, BOD made Devilliers look like an average club player, Shaggy has regained some cracking form. 
TOL was munsters best player, Leamy was ok when he was not trying to lamp players, Ronan was shown up for what he is too small to play at highest level. 
I expect Munster to bounce back but Sat proved that the HEC semi was no fluke and looking forward to this friday 
I also heard Chris de burgh is doing a duet with ROG for the new munster song
"Ladies in Red"


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## baldyman27 (5 Oct 2009)

Oh crap, the floodgates have opened to the inevitable ****-takes.

Seriously though, I would expect Munster, Leinster, Toulouse and Clermont (should they take the HC seriously) to be in the mix come semis time. Munster were shocking, yes, but they do have the pedigree. If I had to put my money on an HC winner right now though, I would have to say Leinster. 

Still delighted to be a Munster man this year, we get to go to the south of France AND to Italy. Sweet.


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## mathepac (5 Oct 2009)

Luckycharm said:


> ... I also heard Chris de burgh is doing a duet with ROG for the new munster song
> "Ladies in Red"


LOL . If Christy isn't too busy with gigs maybe he'd consider a swop with ROG - the guitar for the No 10 shirt?


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## Luckycharm (5 Oct 2009)

baldyman27 said:


> Oh crap, the floodgates have opened to the inevitable ****-takes.
> 
> Seriously though, I would expect Munster, Leinster, Toulouse and Clermont (should they take the HC seriously) to be in the mix come semis time. Munster were shocking, yes, but they do have the pedigree. If I had to put my money on an HC winner right now though, I would have to say Leinster.
> 
> Still delighted to be a Munster man this year, we get to go to the south of France AND to Italy. Sweet.


 
What can I say retribution is sweet after years of the Ladyboys tag - are you Connacht in disguise jibes from the Worlds greatest fans


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## DavyJones (5 Oct 2009)

baldyman27 said:


> Oh crap, the floodgates have opened to the inevitable ****-takes.
> 
> Seriously though, I would expect Munster, Leinster, Toulouse and Clermont (should they take the HC seriously) to be in the mix come semis time. Munster were shocking, yes, but they do have the pedigree. If I had to put my money on an HC winner right now though, I would have to say Leinster.
> 
> Still delighted to be a Munster man this year, we get to go to the south of France AND to Italy. Sweet.



A few of us will head to the Italy game, should be fun. France sounds good too.

It's too early in the season for my predictions, Munster nilled Leinster last season at the RDS and see how that ended. I must admit Leinster rugby is looking strong now, a lot of years of good development are starting to bear fruit. Long way to go yet, hope the Irish sides can be in Europe near the end.


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## Teatime (5 Oct 2009)

Luckycharm said:


> What can I say retribution is sweet after years of the Ladyboys tag - are you Connacht in disguise jibes from the Worlds greatest fans


 
HEY! Connacht beat both these superpowers last year in Magners !! We're next for HC !

Bad stamp by Hayes - he definitely was not going for the face but one thing is for sure, Healy is a fine prop and the sooner he gets on Irish team the better.


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## Purple (5 Oct 2009)

I was talking to a Munster supporter yesterday about the match and he said that Leinster players and fans cannot ever be a passionate about their team because rugby in Munster was a working class game and it was a upper/middle class game in Leinster. When I asked him if that meant just because a person was from a well off background they could never be a passionate about a game as a person from a poor background he said yes.
I was raised to judge people based on what I found, not on where they were from or what accent they had (or what race or religion they were) so to me that’s the worst kind of BS inverted snobbery. 

What do the Munster fans here think?


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## Firefly (5 Oct 2009)

Not making any excuses as Leinster were awesome, but I can't say that we'd see this Munster performance under Kidney. There must be a management aspect to this, be it build-up, training, strategy, camp's morale etc.


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## TarfHead (5 Oct 2009)

Purple said:


> .. Leinster players and fans cannot ever be a passionate about their team because rugby in Munster was a working class game and it was a upper/middle class game in Leinster.


 
My next-door neighbour's son is a Dublin born & bred & educated dentist, now resident in Limerick and a die-hard Munster supporter. So, at a Munster game he is working-class, but in other dimensions of his life he is middle-class  ?

Another example of the type of self-serving nonsensical claim that sports supporters regularly make for themselves, not solely a Munster vice.


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## DavyJones (5 Oct 2009)

Purple said:


> I was talking to a Munster supporter yesterday about the match and he said that Leinster players and fans cannot ever be a passionate about their team because rugby in Munster was a working class game and it was a upper/middle class game in Leinster. When I asked him if that meant just because a person was from a well off background they could never be a passionate about a game as a person from a poor background he said yes.
> I was raised to judge people based on what I found, not on where they were from or what accent they had (or what race or religion they were) so to me that’s the worst kind of BS inverted snobbery.
> 
> What do the Munster fans here think?



Really finding this kind of sterotyping tiresome, it's the same everywhere in Ireland, if your a young lad good at rugby, the top rugby schools take you. these are normally fee paying schools. Alot of the snobbery is connected to this even if it happens outside Dublin. 

Because a person is wealthy is no way to measure his love for his sport and likewise for us poor Munster folk . 

Irish rugby has changed alot over the last few years and will continue to change. For example, i was at Thomond recently and there were a couple of couples infront of me, they were all dressed in the new Munster kit, they spent more time chatting than watching the game, when quiet was called for, one of the ladies said "oh, I hate when people ssshh me" God above. It's nearly like it is cool to say you were at a match even if you didn't watch it.

Also in the RDS the other night, the chants of Easy Easy (even when it was so painfully easy) are not what the game I grew up with is about. There are lemons on both sides, It's getting hard to avoid them.


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## baldyman27 (5 Oct 2009)

Purple said:


> I was talking to a Munster supporter yesterday about the match and he said that Leinster players and fans cannot ever be a passionate about their team because rugby in Munster was a working class game and it was a upper/middle class game in Leinster. When I asked him if that meant just because a person was from a well off background they could never be a passionate about a game as a person from a poor background he said yes.
> I was raised to judge people based on what I found, not on where they were from or what accent they had (or what race or religion they were) so to me that’s the worst kind of BS inverted snobbery.
> 
> What do the Munster fans here think?


 
Its complete and utter BS, as you say. Thing is, both camps have a huge bandwagon support. I could even be classed as being among them having come from a GAA background I only discovered rugby and Munster while in college in Limerick. That was pre the heady days though. The amount of idiots going to games now is ridiculous. People who haven't a bull's notion about the game itself. What I'd compare it to is the bandwagon following that English Premiership soccer teams have acquired and this was never more evident than at Croker for the semi last season - remember the chants? It was Leinster fans on that occasion, albeit a minority, but it could have easily been Munster from what I've seen.

There is an argument for less well-off people being more fervent fans of any sport. Wealthier people don't have the same level of tedium and hardship in their everday lives. A sweeping generalisation, I know, but fundamentally true. As such, anything that can be latched onto that might lift the spirits and give a positive focus will be fanatically supported. This would have been traditionally the case with regard to Munster and Leinster as pre-professionalism and pre-Celtic Tiger (which occurred at roughly the same time) Munster was typified mainly by the working-class (dare I say problem) areas of Limerick, versus the salubrious areas of Dublin. Of course this has all changed drastically in the intervening years and the game is now accessible to all, though there are some who live in the past and are narrow-minded. I've encountered them on both sides.

As a Munster supporter, i feel a connection to the players because they are literally among us. It's not uncommon to meet any of them on a night out in town during the off-season or to waddle my fat little way up to the driving range and find one of the lads next to you hacking away. They are always friendly and willing to have a chat I have found, apart from ROG who's a pretentious git but I digress. This, naturally, makes it easier to roar on your team for a game. I don't know if the same can be said of the Leinster players. That said, Dublin and the commuter towns being so large would make it a lot more difficult to bump into any of them. Cork and Limerick are very local.

Christ, what an essay!


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## DavyJones (5 Oct 2009)

baldyman27 said:


> As a Munster supporter, i feel a connection to the players because they are literally among us. It's not uncommon to meet any of them on a night out in town during the off-season or to waddle my fat little way up to the driving range and find one of the lads next to you hacking away. They are always friendly and willing to have a chat I have found, apart from ROG who's a pretentious git but I digress. This, naturally, makes it easier to roar on your team for a game. I don't know if the same can be said of the Leinster players. That said, Dublin and the commuter towns being so large would make it a lot more difficult to bump into any of them. Cork and Limerick are very local.
> 
> Christ, what an essay!



I would agree with that, I have often drank beside Lions and international players in Limerick and nobody bats an eyelid. I have met ROG a few times and found him to have a dry humour, i like him, My brother dislikes him alot so I can see where you are coming from.  Although I suspect he gets alot a hassle when out, he did on one of the nights I was there.


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## demoivre (5 Oct 2009)

I live in south Leinster and what amazes me is the amount of locals down here who support Munster !


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## Mpsox (5 Oct 2009)

Purple said:


> I was talking to a Munster supporter yesterday about the match and he said that Leinster players and fans cannot ever be a passionate about their team because rugby in Munster was a working class game and it was a upper/middle class game in Leinster. When I asked him if that meant just because a person was from a well off background they could never be a passionate about a game as a person from a poor background he said yes.
> I was raised to judge people based on what I found, not on where they were from or what accent they had (or what race or religion they were) so to me that’s the worst kind of BS inverted snobbery.
> 
> What do the Munster fans here think?


 
I'm from a working class Munster background and married to someone from a working class rural Leinster background who is pretty passionate about her rugby.  However there is some merit in what the Munster guy was saying historically. The majority of Leinster senior clubs used to be assiocated with various private schools and certainly when I played (not that long ago I might add), you'd see far more GAA "boggers" togging out for a rugby team in Limerick then you would in D4. Mick Galway is the classic example.

That is changing but has a long way to go. I'm not really sure how relevant Leinster rugby is to the majority of people who live in Westmeath or South Wexford, I do think Munster has more of a connection across the provence then is the case in Leinster.


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## Purple (5 Oct 2009)

Mpsox said:


> I'm from a working class Munster background and married to someone from a working class rural Leinster background who is pretty passionate about her rugby.  However there is some merit in what the Munster guy was saying historically. The majority of Leinster senior clubs used to be assiocated with various private schools and certainly when I played (not that long ago I might add), you'd see far more GAA "boggers" togging out for a rugby team in Limerick then you would in D4. Mick Galway is the classic example.
> 
> That is changing but has a long way to go. I'm not really sure how relevant Leinster rugby is to the majority of people who live in Westmeath or South Wexford, I do think Munster has more of a connection across the provence then is the case in Leinster.



The point he was making was that by definition someone who is from a well off background cannot be as passionate about a sport as someone from a poor background. He was not arguing that it was generally the case, but that it was always the case.


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## Luckycharm (5 Oct 2009)

DavyJones said:


> Really finding this kind of sterotyping tiresome, it's the same everywhere in Ireland, if your a young lad good at rugby, the top rugby schools take you. these are normally fee paying schools. Alot of the snobbery is connected to this even if it happens outside Dublin.
> 
> Because a person is wealthy is no way to measure his love for his sport and likewise for us poor Munster folk .
> 
> ...


 
I was at the Semi in 06 in Lansdowne when we were at the end of a whopping and heard lots of calls of Easy Easy coming from the Munster support when Halstead scored - so please no more of this holier then thou attitude from the Munster fans- never minds how chirpy alot of munster fans were to the Leinster fans on the walk to the HEC semi last may.

I have been following Leinster/club rugby since I was child - 30 odd years and some of the rubbish I have heard about Leinster fans. There are one of 2 clubs in Dublin which are definetly Snobby etc but then again they are not really liked in Dublin either. Then again there are similar clubs in Munster/Limerick which are just as Snobby- garryowen anyone?

Leinster clubs have always welcomed players from whereever- for example that Outhalf who played for Munster that day when you beat the All blacks where exactly was he raised and schooled?

Munster fans seem to quickly forget the 2001 celtic league final when 14 man leinster showed enough passion to come back against a full Munster team!! 

One thing as my dad pointed out last Friday alot of the fans on both sides have probally never been to an AIL game.


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## Betsy Og (5 Oct 2009)

You'd have to say that there's an awful lot of tosh talked about the Munster 'working class' thing. For starters I'd say a good half of the crowd are GAA people by origin in terms of where they live, what they played themselves, what their Da played .....

Focussing on the specifics of those who are rugby-by-birth, in Limerick you have schools like Munchins, Crescent & lately Castletroy, all salubrious enough type establishments and areas. Similarly in terms of clubs you have Garryowen and Cresent, UL Bohs, nothing much working class about them either. 

Now I'm not denying there's a fair working class crowd too with clubs like Young Munster, Thomond (not sure where Shannon fit in) but I'd say overall if, of the rugby-by-birth crowd, it was 50% working class 50% well off that would be the height of it. Would be true to say that soccer is bigger than rugby in Limerick's working class areas?, maybe maybe not but I'd guess its fairly close run and the notion that working class Limerick is 100% rugby is wider of the mark.

Rugby in Cork is, to my knowledge, as "D4" as it is in Leinster.

So, by my rough calc, only 25% of the Munster crowd is rugby-by-birth working class. 

I support Munster, occasionally, as its where I'm from and I've liked their style and many of the players of the past 10 years or so. But I have to say the fans do talk a fair bit of crap at the best of times.


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## baldyman27 (5 Oct 2009)

DavyJones said:


> For example, i was at Thomond recently and there were a couple of couples infront of me, they were all dressed in the new _*Munster kit, they spent more time chatting than watching the game, when quiet was called for, one of the ladies said "oh, I hate when people ssshh me" God above. It's nearly like it is cool to say you were at a match even if you didn't watch it.*_
> 
> Also in the RDS the other night, the chants of Easy Easy (even when it was so painfully easy) are not what the game I grew up with is about. *There are lemons on both sides*, It's getting hard to avoid them.


 


Luckycharm said:


> I was at the Semi in 06 in Lansdowne when we were at the end of a whopping and heard lots of calls of Easy Easy coming from the Munster support when Halstead scored -_* so please no more of this holier then thou attitude from the Munster fans*_- never minds how chirpy alot of munster fans were to the Leinster fans on the walk to the HEC semi last may.
> 
> I have been following Leinster/club rugby since I was child - 30 odd years and some of the rubbish I have heard about Leinster fans. There are one of 2 clubs in Dublin which are definetly Snobby etc but then again they are not really liked in Dublin either. Then again there are similar clubs in Munster/Limerick which are just as Snobby- garryowen anyone?
> 
> ...


 
May I just point out that Davy's post was balanced in that he criticised both sets of fans? Also, I think you will find on reading the thread that no one thus far has been blindly oblivious to the antics of their own set of supporters. Sweeping generalisations are the root of some of the angst, you are participating in the same.


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## mathepac (5 Oct 2009)

mathepac said:


> ... but what shocked me to the core was the incident that resulted in John Hayes being dismissed...


Just to point out to some posters above that at no stage did I attribute blame to John Hayes. The dismissal happened after the touch-judge intervened and discussed what he saw with the ref. I had no clear view of who did what based on the high-lights I saw on BBC2 or the link above.


mathepac said:


> ... If what I saw is accurate then it was a deliberate, savage and cowardly attack on a helpless player and could mean an ignominious end to what has been an exemplary disciplinary career ...


Having reviewed the incident again it looks to me as if two different boots made contact with Healy's head / face or someone had a second go at him. I can't see whose boot went where in the link above and the BBC showed only the feet and Healy's head so bodies and feet can't be connected.

If I'm right then either the wrong player got the red card (which is what I believe) or two players should have been sent off.


Teatime said:


> ... Bad stamp by Hayes - he definitely was not going for the face ...


Fair play you obviously had a better view of the incident than me and you also seem to have insight into the intention and the target that I lack - how is that?

Stamping is OK, just not on a guy's face, is that what you mean?


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## DavyJones (5 Oct 2009)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTJt1e6k-M4&feature=player_embedded

Heres the incident, the other player is POC, he is raking though and not stamping, Hayes clearly is stamping. Of all the players, you'd never expect it from the Bull.


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## mathepac (5 Oct 2009)

I still can't make it out clearly enough to be satisfied in my own mind. 





DavyJones said:


> ... Of all the players, you'd never expect it from the Bull.


I agree. He'll crush you, squash you, break you in two with a tackle, turn you into an s-hook in the scrum (on a good day), throw you to one side like a terrier with a rat, you'll visit your family in Oz in the ruck, and learn to sprint backwards in the maul, all legally, but I can't ever remember an incident like this. He's given away loads of penalties but they've been for technical stuff rather not thuggery.


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## MrMan (5 Oct 2009)

Luckycharm said:


> I was at the Semi in 06 in Lansdowne when we were at the end of a whopping and heard lots of calls of Easy Easy coming from the Munster support when Halstead scored - so please no more of this holier then thou attitude from the Munster fans- never minds how chirpy alot of munster fans were to the Leinster fans on the walk to the HEC semi last may.
> *I wouldn't mind your response except you even highlighted what Davy said and still took it up wrong.*
> 
> I have been following Leinster/club rugby since I was child - 30 odd years and some of the rubbish I have heard about Leinster fans. There are one of 2 clubs in Dublin which are definetly Snobby etc but then again they are not really liked in Dublin either. Then again there are similar clubs in Munster/Limerick which are just as Snobby- garryowen anyone?
> ...


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## DavyJones (6 Oct 2009)

Hayes gets a six week ban.

[broken link removed]


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## Caveat (7 Oct 2009)

Purple said:


> The point he was making was that by definition someone who is from a well off background cannot be as passionate about a sport as someone from a poor background. He was not arguing that it was generally the case, but that it was always the case.


 
Different types of passion maybe -  informed by the socio-economic & cultural background in the first place?

E.g. Arguably, many so called middle class supporters may be more reserved or self conscious when it comes to displays of support/camaraderie etc?


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## Purple (7 Oct 2009)

Caveat said:


> Different types of passion maybe -  informed by the socio-economic & cultural background in the first place?
> 
> E.g. Arguably, many so called middle class supporters may be more reserved or self conscious when it comes to displays of support/camaraderie etc?


 Maybe, but all of them? In every case?


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## Caveat (7 Oct 2009)

Purple said:


> Maybe, but all of them? In every case?


 
No, not all - I'm just suggesting the personality type as a reason why your friend might have come to his sweeping conclusion.

Of course certain sports have always tended to have class associations - I think your man might have a bit of a chip on his shoulder with the rugby thing.


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## MrMan (8 Oct 2009)

Caveat said:


> No, not all - I'm just suggesting the personality type as a reason why your friend might have come to his sweeping conclusion.
> 
> Of course certain sports have always tended to have class associations - I think your man might have a bit of a chip on his shoulder with the rugby thing.




Or more likely he made a general sweeping statement as people tend to do in casual talk. People tend to say things and never have to back them up because a pinch of salt is generally required with chat about sport.


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## Luckycharm (8 Oct 2009)

Caveat said:


> Different types of passion maybe - informed by the socio-economic & cultural background in the first place?
> 
> E.g.* Arguably, many so called middle class supporters may be more reserved or self conscious when it comes to displays of support/camaraderie etc?[/*quote]
> 
> That is completely rubbish - each person is different no matter what background they come from. People have tended to forget the Province that probally had the biggest support first was Ulster they always used to have the biggest average attendance plus how many came down for their final in 99.


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## Caveat (8 Oct 2009)

So you are saying that everyone is a complete individual and does not conform in any way to notions of any social groupings or behaviour?

I'd say over 150 years of sociology might disagree.

(Don't know what Ulster has to do with anything BTW)


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## Purple (8 Oct 2009)

MrMan said:


> Or more likely he made a general sweeping statement as people tend to do in casual talk. People tend to say things and never have to back them up because a pinch of salt is generally required with chat about sport.


 He did, but when asked if it was his opinion that this was the case for every single fan, i.e. a poor person will always be more passionate about a sport then a well-off person, he said yes.


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## Caveat (8 Oct 2009)

Don't forget as well the "middle classes" are easily the most ridiculed and unloved. There can be pride or a certain nobility in calling yourself "working class" and the so called upper classes usually don't give a damn what anyone thinks about them.

I've never, ever heard of anyone who has expressed pride or any other positive emotion in being "middle class" though. It seems they are 'just there'.


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