# BER Certificate requirement for the sale or letting of property (Part 2)



## Alzeral (9 Dec 2008)

On reading the thread titled BER Certificate requirement for the sale or letting of property starts on 1st Jan 09(locked) there seems to be a lot of confusion out there, which is understandable considering this is a relatively new industry. 

I am a BER assessor and was quite shocked however, that some people who seem to know very little about BERs have come out with some statements which are totally unfounded and yet which they believe are true. One of the posts read that up to 12 assessments could be carried out per day. Another said that an assessment could be done in 30 mins?!?

Here are the facts - there are effectively 3 stages to assessing each house. The survey, the inputting of the data following the survey, and the typing up of a recommendations report specific to the house complete with the issuing of the BER cert. With regards to duration - the survey takes between 1 to 2 hours depending on size of property. The inputting of the data takes 1.5 hours (and I'm very computer savvy so this may take some assessors 2 hours). The advisory report and BER cert takes on average 2 hours to complete and issue. So you're talking 4.5 to 5 hours plus travel time for each assessment. Assessors will be able to complete 1.5 jobs per day (at a push maybe 2 when they become very efficient at it) and that's IF that much work is available.

In relation to prices, yes they do vary quite a lot, but bear in mind this is a brand new industry. A lot of assessors are quoting prices + VAT and some are quoting including the VAT but ultimately for the average 3/4 bed semi the price should be around the €350 mark all in. No doubt this price will fall with competition.

If some people think this is excessive think again - having a snag list completed on a new house is €275 - €300 for an average house and a snag would take about 3 hours to carry out, including the time taken to write the report. An estate agent carrying out a property valuation would charge you around €150 and this would take no more than 1.5 hours again including time take to write up their report. In relation to prices in the UK, these are not comparable as in the UK they have to get a Home Information Pack when selling, which costs circa £400 sterling.

As someone rightly pointed out in a post, this is not just a procedure new to Ireland, this has to be done in all EU member states as in accordance with the European Performance of Buildings Directive (EPBD). Under the Kyoto protocol, Ireland signed up to reduce it's carbon levels significantly and we are well off target. However, BERs will do two things. Firstly, increase awareness about the importance of energy efficiency in the home and therefore reduce our CO2 emissions and secondly, give consumers who are considering purchasing/renting a home information on the potential cost of running a home they may be interested in.

So people, don't get carried away in thinking that all BER assessors are earning €59,000 per day. We're not! We're getting a wage and covering our expenses, and that's provided the number of assessors doesn't increase significantly. If it does, we'll have to go find another source of income. 

I know it's yet another expense on people who are selling or renting a house but it's time we stopped our usual Irish moaning and just get on with it, it has to be done. Look on it this way; if everyone selling a house implements some of the recommendations that a BER assessor recommends, everyone in the selling/purchasing chain will be saving a lot more than the €350 over the course of a 2-3 years in the form of reduced energy bills.


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## Bessa (9 Dec 2008)

*Re: BER certs (Part 2)*

Alzeral can you clarify for me if an apartment in a Listed building is exempt from having a BER rating done.

Thanks.


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## Alzeral (9 Dec 2008)

*Re: BER certs (Part 2)*

Good question, not 100% about this one.  Listed buildings are exempt but an apartment in one?  I'd contact SEI.


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## S.L.F (9 Dec 2008)

*Re: BER certs (Part 2)*



Alzeral said:


> On reading the thread titled "*Ber Certificate requirement for the sale or letting of property starts on 1st Jan"* there seems to be a lot of confusion out there, which is understandable considering this is a relatively new industry.



There is very little confusion in my mind as to how long it takes to get a survey done.

Example
What surface area is the exterior walls?

What are they made of (Stone, cement, brick, wood or straw) and are they insulated and how of?

What type of roof? Is it insulated what type of insulation and how much of it?

Are the windows D/G and how big are they?

What type of heating system is installed, how many radiators etc?
How many vents?

What else is there?



Alzeral said:


> I am a BER assessor and was quite shocked however, that some people who seem to know very little about BERs have come out with some statements which are totally unfounded and yet which they believe are true. One of the posts read that up to 12 *assessments* could be carried out per day. Another said that an assessment could be done in 30 mins?!?



12 *surveys* a day not assessments, do try to read the posts and don't be making stuff up.

I called a company and asked how long it would take to do a survey on my flat and was told 30 mins, it in fact took 25 mins.

I don't have the report yet but I'll keep you informed!



Alzeral said:


> Here are the facts - there are effectively 3 stages to assessing each house. The survey, the inputting of the data following the survey, and the typing up of a recommendations report specific to the house complete with the issuing of the BER cert. With regards to duration - the survey takes between 1 to 2 hours depending on size of property. The inputting of the data takes 1.5 hours (and I'm very computer savvy so this may take some assessors 2 hours). The advisory report and BER cert takes on average 2 hours to complete and issue. So you're talking 4.5 to 5 hours plus travel time for each assessment. Assessors will be able to complete 1.5 jobs per day (at a push maybe 2 when they become very efficient at it) and that's IF that much work is available.



I have absolutely no idea what you'd be doing in someones house for 2 hours there are only so many walls to look at.

I'm not computer savvy but I can put a lot of info into my computer in a half hour I really don't see why it takes so long to put in a few measurements into a computer.

I won't bother commenting on the report end of things.



Alzeral said:


> If some people think this is excessive think again - having a snag list completed on a new house is €275 - €300 for an average house and a snag would take about 3 hours to carry out, including the time taken to write the report. An estate agent carrying out a property valuation would charge you around €150 and this would take no more than 1.5 hours again including time take to write up their report. In relation to prices in the UK, these are not comparable as in the UK they have to get a Home Information Pack when selling, which costs circa £400 sterling.



How do these prices relate to the price of having a BER carried out on your property



Alzeral said:


> So people, don't get carried away in thinking that all BER assessors are earning €59,000 per day. We're not! We're getting a wage and covering our expenses, and that's provided the number of assessors doesn't increase significantly. If it does, we'll have to go find another source of income.



Since most of the BER assessors have not started work yet nobody knows what they are earning!



Alzeral said:


> I know it's yet another expense on people who are selling or renting a house but it's time we stopped our usual Irish moaning and just get on with it, it has to be done. Look on it this way; if everyone selling a house implements some of the recommendations that a BER assessor recommends, everyone in the selling/purchasing chain will be saving a lot more than the €350 over the course of a 2-3 years in the form of reduced energy bills.



LOL

Why would someone selling or renting a property care about whether or not their tenants or house buyers the save money or not on heating bills?


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## Bronte (10 Dec 2008)

*Re: BER certs (Part 2)*

SLF, what did your report cost and what is circa your location, I too couldn't care less what's in the report, I'll have to (apparently) get them from next January but I want the cheapest cost wise as it will be of no benefit to either me or my tenants, just another bit of bureaucracy.


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## Alzeral (10 Dec 2008)

*Re: BER certs (Part 2)*



Bronte said:


> SLF, what did your report cost and what is circa your location, I too couldn't care less what's in the report, I'll have to (apparently) get them from next January but I want the cheapest cost wise as it will be of no benefit to either me or my tenants, just another bit of bureaucracy.


 

Bronte, I can see your point, and even as a BER assessor I would openly admit that for people letting homes it is just bureaucracy and they will just want the cheapest option.  Bear in mind that it's only for homes that are being *offered* for sale or rent, so if you have tenants in situ, you don't need one.


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## clonboy (10 Dec 2008)

*Re: BER certs (Part 2)*

Thankfully we don't have too many straw houses in this country. Unless perhaps you're one of the 3 little pigs?

now thats a whole new thread,


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## Bronte (10 Dec 2008)

*Re: BER certs (Part 2)*

Alzeral, I think you'll find SLF is a landlord too.  He probably only wants the cheapest bit of paper like me!  It's not an attack on you.  I do realize it's only when tenants leave I have to get one but I have no intention of getting one unless I really really have to.  This should become clearer next year when we see how it's going to be monitored/enforced etc.


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## Alzeral (10 Dec 2008)

*Re: BER certs (Part 2)*

I am a landlord myself, and yes all I want to do is to comply with legal obligations, i.e. cheapest bit of paper as you say.  With regards to how it's going to be monitored for rental properties, I really don't know.  In fact I don't think it can or will be monitored.  So I would imagine a lot of landlords won't get the BER done unless a gun is put to their head (and to be honest, who would blame them?).

The only thing is, when prospective tenants start to get savvy about it next year, they will ask for it.  On top of that, the final BER of your investment property may have an impact on the rent you get, i.e. if there's a newer apartment down the road with a B3 rating as opposed to your C3 rated apartment, you might get €50 less a month for it.

A final note on BERs for *apartments* - they should be cheaper than assessments for houses because they are easier to carry out, so make sure you pay less than for a standard house (should be under €300).


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## S.L.F (10 Dec 2008)

*Re: BER certs (Part 2)*



S.L.F said:


> Since most of the BER assessors have not started work yet nobody knows what they are earning!


 


Alzeral said:


> Forecasting, estimating, expected revenues. Come on man.


 
You just let the cat out of the bag you haven't even started work as an assessor yet have you?

I'm very interested in what the big hoohaa is about what is involved in surveying a property and since you haven't even started to do it you wouldn't know anyway.

<..>


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## Galwayboy (10 Dec 2008)

*Re: BER certs (Part 2)*

Have to agree with everything that Alzeral has said and add my own opinion. 

The idea that anyone could make big money on doing these certs is just ridiculous. I recently got 3 certs done. One house in Galway and two in Dublin. Including travel time there was a 1/2 days work initially in Galway and in Dublin there was 3/4 's of day. Then there was the work back in the guy's office. Estimate about 1/2 day in total for the three. He then has to meet me to discuss the three certs and go through improvements that I could make, so say another 1/4 of a day. So all in all about 2 days for the three properties. 

Now the total cost (2 houses and one apartment) was €675. This includes Vat so his price was €557.85 plus vat. It also included a mandatory registration fee of €25 per house. So he actually only charged €482 before these costs for two days work. €240 per day and he pays his own travel expenses and tax out of this. Now even if he was busy every day 5 days a week (and this is highly unlikely) and take out your holidays he would earn €55,000 per year before travel, insurance and other related expenses (I will leave out the €2,000 for the course and the €1,000 registration fee for now). 

While you won't be on the breadline you certainly won't be able to retire early doing this work. These certs are a benefit to everyone. You as a landlord can gain a competitive edge on your competition by improving your rating and tenants will have an idea of what it will cost to heat the house. These certs are European wide. I have property in Germany and I had to get it done there last year. 

OK you might say it just more bureaucracy just like the PRTB but it has its advantages as well. 

So you guys that think its money for jam - lads get a reality check.


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## Bessa (10 Dec 2008)

*Re: BER certs (Part 2)*

So can i ask if one has a BER carried out and gets a bad rating, and then carries out lots if improvements to ones property, which would change the rating dramatically, and then decides to sell, so two BER Certs. would have to be obtained to sell with the better rating. Am i correct.


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## Alzeral (10 Dec 2008)

*Re: BER certs (Part 2)*

Thank you Galwayboy, it certainly ain't money for jam.

Bessa, you are correct.  There are some assessors out there who would charge you the full whack twice in this instance.  However, once they've done the assessment initially, it's relatively straightforward for them to go back to the property, check the improvements you've made, update the record in the DEAP program and get you a revised cert.  In other words, they shouldn't charge you twice in this instance (but of course some chancers will try).  Personally, if I carried out an assessment for someone and they were to contact me a few months later to say they've made improvements and want a revised cert, i might charge €75-€100.


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## Bronte (12 Dec 2008)

*Re: BER certs (Part 2)*



Galwayboy said:


> You as a landlord can gain a competive edge on your competition by improving your rating and tenents will have an idea of what it will cost to heat the house.


  I'm already competitive (location) and have property that is well insulated to modern standards and I can give prospective tenants a copy of the heating/gas/esb bill if they need to work it out themselves and these are based on reality not a certificate with a rating.  Most tenant's I've ever met only want to know the location, size and price. But I guess they'll all be clambering for these certs next year.  This would work much better if one was forced to go to a certain standard based on the rating, I guess that's what's coming next.  Kinda like the current rules on standards of rental property.


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## jakartajim (14 Dec 2008)

*Re: BER certs (Part 2)*

If I get a BER survey done on my properties, do I get verbal confirmation of the rating prior to receiving the actual cert?  Does the customer pay SEI or the surveyor directly??


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## PADDYBOY99 (15 Dec 2008)

*Re: BER certs (Part 2)*



jakartajim said:


> If I get a BER survey done on my properties, do I get verbal confirmation of the rating prior to receiving the actual cert? Does the customer pay SEI or the surveyor directly??


 

Once all the information is gathered and entered into the DEAP software you can at this point recieve verbal confirmation as to your rating. 
To answer your second question you will pay the surveyor. Their price will enclude the reg fee to SEI.


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## Slaphead (9 Jan 2009)

well here's something that's not being enforced.
I took a walk around 7-8 EA's in the south east yesterday and found only one property (well a whole easte of 10-15 houses, new build) with BERs.
I'd say less than 5% of places have got it, probably less than 1%.


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## Jack2008 (9 Jan 2009)

Another example of "jobs for the boys"! More cost and expense on everybody and don't try and tell me that the BER surveryors won't make a killing on this. There is a limited number of assessors at the moment and therefore they will ensure that it is very profitable for as long as they can! 
It is compulsory and therefore people will have no option but to get it. 
I would be curious to know how accurate is the claim that these surveys are compulsory in "all EU member states" and would love a source which identifies the participation of all other European states and the cost of compliance in "all EU member states"
Before I even check you can be sure we are being ripped off here?


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## PADDYBOY99 (11 Jan 2009)

Jack2008 said:


> Another example of "jobs for the boys"! More cost and expense on everybody and don't try and tell me that the BER surveryors won't make a killing on this. There is a limited number of assessors at the moment and therefore they will ensure that it is very profitable for as long as they can!
> It is compulsory and therefore people will have no option but to get it.
> I would be curious to know how accurate is the claim that these surveys are compulsory in "all EU member states" and would love a source which identifies the participation of all other European states and the cost of compliance in "all EU member states"
> Before I even check you can be sure we are being ripped off here?


 


The ultimate objective of these is for the consumer to have a more energy efficient home and ultimately to save the consumer money as energy cost become more expensive. 
As regards making a killing that could not be further from the truth. In the current economic climate BER assessors are competing for what work is out there. My advice to anyone is shop around and you will get a very reasonable price for a professional assessment.


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## Starbuck (11 Jan 2009)

I took the deposit on a property in mid December. The For Sale sign was taken down immediately, and the property was 'off the market'.

If the Law relates to 'any property being *offerred for sale* or rent' do you lads think I can make a case for not needing a BER, based on the fact that the property was no longer being 'offerred for sale' on Jan 1st?


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## postman pat (12 Jan 2009)

just another query,if the same tenants renew the lease this year,will i need a BER cert?
              Pat


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## smurf (12 Jan 2009)

1. How much was it to do the BER course?
2. How long does the course take to complete?
3. Is the exam in a multiple choice format?
4. Can one certify their own property?
5. Finally how long is one accredited for after completing course?


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## Starbuck (12 Jan 2009)

Anyone found the best BER deal yet?

I'll offer 100 euro to the first comer.
PM me.


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## PADDYBOY99 (13 Jan 2009)

Starbuck said:


> Anyone found the best BER deal yet?
> 
> I'll offer 100 euro to the first comer.
> PM me.


 

What exactly is on offer for 100 Euro? Does that enclude the draw down plus Vat?


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## fbmpw (13 Jan 2009)

Surveys cant be done for less than 150 if vthe are been done right i.e recors, insurances, accurate, registration fees, travel costs etc...


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## joker538 (13 Jan 2009)

smurf said:


> 1. How much was it to do the BER course?


 €1800


smurf said:


> 2. How long does the course take to complete??


 courses require 40 hours of study/learning


smurf said:


> 3. Is the exam in a multiple choice format?


 No. 


smurf said:


> 4. Can one certify their own property?


 No. You cant certify your own property, your employers property or your families property


smurf said:


> 5. Finally how long is one accredited for after completing course?


 SEI are introducing a CPD element to maintain accreditation


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## Starbuck (13 Jan 2009)

PADDYBOY99 said:


> What exactly is on offer for 100 Euro? Does that enclude the draw down plus Vat?


 
The whole shebang. 100 euro. Thats what its worth.



> Surveys cant be done for less than 150 if vthe are been done right i.e recors, insurances, accurate, registration fees, travel costs etc...


 
Take it or leave it.
NEXT!!

_(market forces at work)_


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## breathnach1 (13 Jan 2009)

We will see how long you last with does rates ? I have a few odd jobs around the house need doing if your working for free !


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## minion (13 Jan 2009)

Ive got some quotes from about €125 to €175 if anyone wants them.  If a mod says its ok i'll give the contact details here.

I found ringing around and playing them off against each other brought the price down.  Definitely dont pay more than €175 for a BER Cert.


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## Starbuck (13 Jan 2009)

I just got round to reading my Sunday Times.
Big article about a BER Surveyor check they did using a standard 3 bed semi in North Dublin.
3 different surveyors gave 3 different ratings, and prices varied from 150 euro to 350.

Its a useless and utterly meaningless piece of paper. Jobs for the boys.
We can't afford this kind of crap in this economy any more. Those days are over.
Get with the program. Cut the prices.
100 euro is the max I'll pay, and I'll beat the price down to that if it kills me.


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## Bronte (14 Jan 2009)

Starbuck said:


> 3 different surveyors gave 3 different ratings, .


 Unbelievable.  So now as a vendor I'll just get the surveyor who gives me the best rating.


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## Jack2008 (14 Jan 2009)

Starbuck said:


> I just got round to reading my Sunday Times.
> Big article about a BER Surveyor check they did using a standard 3 bed semi in North Dublin.
> 3 different surveyors gave 3 different ratings, and prices varied from 150 euro to 350.
> 
> ...


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## gilboy (14 Jan 2009)

Anybody hear John Gormley talk about this subject on the Matt Cooper show during the week. 

He said he was at some launch promoting the BER scheme in somebodys house on the southside who had gotten a BER report done. The bloke in the house carried out the findings in the report, costing him 16k!

John Gormley told Cooper that the bloke had told him that the 16k he spend on repairs he would save on his energy bills in a year or 2!


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## postman pat (16 Jan 2009)

im just wondering.. is there anyway to INSULATE us against John Gormley!!



Pat


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## Bronte (16 Jan 2009)

gilboy said:


> John Gormley told Cooper that the bloke had told him that the 16k he spend on repairs he would save on his energy bills in a year or 2!


You are kidding?


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## colm5 (16 Jan 2009)

For god sake, if you are getting a BER done, get a qualified engineer to do it, to make sure its done correctly. Thousands of people who don't have a clue what they are doing have been "trained" in this course and they don't know what a kWh is. Most think this is their fastlane to prosperity and are neither qualified or informed enough to do it. At least you will get a good advisory report from a qualified engineer, which can be carried out.

I am not a BER assesor.


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## minion (18 Jan 2009)

Starbuck said:


> I just got round to reading my Sunday Times.
> Big article about a BER Surveyor check they did using a standard 3 bed semi in North Dublin.
> 3 different surveyors gave 3 different ratings, and prices varied from 150 euro to 350.
> 
> ...



Madness.  Another thing i've found that you can do is find out who did the neighbours apartment.  Call them and they post the assessment to you.  For €100.

So anyone paying more than €100 - €150 for a BER rating now is a SUCKER.

My bet is that in the end BER will count for nothing when people buy a house.  It will make no difference whatsoever to the price of a house.
They will still buy the house they want (like a fridge or washing machine).  After all we are talking about savings in energy cost from top to bottom that will be about  the same cost as feeding my Dog.


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## ajapale (24 Jan 2009)

Closed for consideration of moderators

aj


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