# Pensions Dilemma



## fatboyPee (30 May 2006)

First off.

Thanks to all who reply to this. I'm sure its done to death elsewhere (I did a wee bit of searching but feel in need of some specific advice).

I've just turned 39. I've no pension to speak of, (assessment from a frozen UK pension at 4,400UK and one that was in Equitable Life (with a few AVC's to boot) I'm struggling to get a handle on the value of this one.

My dilemma is:

Should I cash in these pensions and, with the SSIA due next year buy a small house in the village where I live to rent out and retire to it (and sell my new house once the mortgage is paid off and use it as my pension), or should I consolidate what little bits I have got and kick off my pension / PRSA ?

the mortgage is 25 years but equity stands now at +45% and would be of substantial value in 20 years or so (well, thats the theory!!!)...

I dont have alot of disposable income except whats gone into my SSIA, is this worth paying off the mortgage quicker or using as a PRSA or saving ??

I do plan on putting something into a pension / PRSA but I'm not sure on the other bits ?

Any comments or help much appreciated...

Fatboy..


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## ClubMan (30 May 2006)

fatboyPee said:
			
		

> and one that was in Equitable Life (with a few AVC's to boot) I'm struggling to get a handle on the value of this one.


It should not be difficult. I recently [broken link removed] to get a valuation on a mixed _WP_/unit linked pension that I have with them and asking what the current _WP MVA _is now (4% it seems) and they wrote back with the details within a couple of weeks. Of course the _WP _part has the usual obfuscation about different valuations (indicative, guaranteed/maturity etc.) but you can generally figure it out. Also they write to me each year with a statement and details of performance and any bonuses declared.

Is your _EL _pension _WP _or equities/unit linked funds?


> Should I cash in these pensions


Are you sure that cashing them in is an option? With Irish pensions this is usually only possible with less than two years service in an occupational scheme but otherwise the money is locked away.


> and, with the SSIA due next year buy a small house in the village where I live to rent out and retire to it (and sell my new house once the mortgage is paid off and use it as my pension), or should I consolidate what little bits I have got and kick off my pension / PRSA ?


There is no easy answer to this. You seem to have figured that this is an either/or pension/property question but I don't think that it's as simple as that. Especially when the tax reliefs available on pension contributions are considered.


> I dont have alot of disposable income except whats gone into my SSIA, is this worth paying off the mortgage quicker or using as a PRSA or saving ??


How much is your mortgage and what is the property valued at?


> Any comments or help much appreciated...


I would strongly urge you to get independent, professional advice from a good multi-agency intermediary or authorised advisor who would be better placed to do a more comprehensive fact find/financial health check than others here might be able to do in the face of partial information.


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## Capital1 (30 May 2006)

The value of your pension to date (built up in UK) is not really relevant - I think your main question is whether you would be better off paying into a pension or buying a property to fund for your retirement now.

It sounds like you have not built up a significant pension fund so far?

In relation to your future choices - it would certainly make sense to set-up a pension, given the tax-relief and tax-free roll-up it makes more sense than just about any other investment, other things being equal.

(Of course, given the huge increase in property values in Ireland over past five to ten years and the comparatively poor performance of equities over the similar period, other things have not been equal!)

Whether or not you should buy that property is a different question - it depends on your view of property market at this time - overheated maybe...or do you have some inside track on property that makes this property more valuable to you than to the average punter?


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## fatboyPee (30 May 2006)

Hi ClubMan,

Thanks alot for your comprehensive reply ! Much appreciated !

I will indeed seek proper advice allright, just wondered if there were some polar comments on a "best way" to do things...

Ref EL. I'm not really sure, it was a company pension which I took little notice of, especially when I left, only when EL went "wrong" did I kindof write it off.... as for the being able to cash in, the UK one I have a surrender value for, the other Ihave asked the ex-company a good few times but need to put more pressure on.

ref Either Or: Not quite, but having been quoted an amount to put away given my age at over 800 per month (and knowing I could never reach that figure), I got to wondering if I may be better off directing what little I have elsewhere. A retirement house seems a good option (alongside a smaller PRSA) as the mortgage is 250 but the house on completion was valued at 510 - 530 and 530-550 (2 different Agents). I know it may fall but looking long term If I paid this off earlier by putting in my SSIA then the monthly amount that is currently going to SSIA it maybe worth it ?

Thanks Again.

Fatboy.


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## fatboyPee (30 May 2006)

Capital1 said:
			
		

> The value of your pension to date (built up in UK) is not really relevant - I think your main question is whether you would be better off paying into a pension or buying a property to fund for your retirement now.
> 
> It sounds like you have not built up a significant pension fund so far?
> 
> ...


 
All points very true (thanks).

I don't have an inroad to property, but where I live its still possible (just) to pick up a small ex-council style house for under 200k in the village.  I honestly cannot see this decreasing dramatically given the building work, lack of planning permission for domestic non locals etc and given the 20 year lead time till I'm planning a retirement if I leave it much later I won't get the house paid off in time...?

As explained I am planning to start the pension but having just finished the house etc I've no disposable income for a while...

thanks

Fatboy.


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## Capital1 (30 May 2006)

Your best bet might be a pension mortgage - if you could get a tenant for that property to rent it from you between now and your planned retirement date...if you are that "gone" on the property!


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## ClubMan (30 May 2006)

fatboyPee said:
			
		

> Ref EL. I'm not really sure, it was a company pension which I took little notice of, especially when I left, only when EL went "wrong" did I kindof write it off....


Email them at the contact address on the page linked above with details of your policy number(s) and ask them to send you out a valuation and any other details that you need.





> as for the being able to cash in, the UK one I have a surrender value for, the other Ihave asked the ex-company a good few times but need to put more pressure on.


Surrender value doesn't necessarily mean that you can cash it in. A surrender value may be the value of the fund when transferring it into another pension scheme etc.


> but having been quoted an amount to put away given my age at over 800 per month


By whom? It is not always meaningful to infer what your pension contributions should be based on a target retirement income of x% of your current or projected salary. It often makes more sense to see how much you can reasonably save/invest in your pension and avail of as much tax relief/deferral as possible. In addition just because you can't afford €800 p.m. doesn't mean that you should give up on the pension altogether and look at alternatives such as property.


> A retirement house seems a good option (alongside a smaller PRSA) as the mortgage is 250 but the house on completion was valued at 510 - 530 and 530-550 (2 different Agents). I know it may fall but looking long term If I paid this off earlier by putting in my SSIA then the monthly amount that is currently going to SSIA it maybe worth it ?


Investing in a single propery is arguably a lot more risky than indirectly investing in a basket of equities and other assets diversified by asset class, geographic region, risk/reward profile especially when the pension investments benefit from significant tax reliefs.


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## fatboyPee (30 May 2006)

Capital1 said:
			
		

> Your best bet might be a pension mortgage - if you could get a tenant for that property to rent it from you between now and your planned retirement date...if you are that "gone" on the property!


 
I know the tenancy thing is a big IF...  ... but I have a very specific area in mind.... if I can get a hold of a property there.... just my new house is 3 miles out up a very steep hill  .....all things considered, there will come a time when I/we want to live nearer to the village .....

Will check out the pension mortgage.. Thanks

FBP.


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## ClubMan (30 May 2006)

Capital1 said:
			
		

> Your best bet might be a pension mortgage - if you could get a tenant for that property to rent it from you between now and your planned retirement date...if you are that "gone" on the property!


 I don't think that this is necessarily true. If you are investing in a property then you might be better off going for an interest only mortgage and keeping your pension savings separate. I don't think that people should necessarily link investment property interest only mortgages and their pension.

Ultimately I don't think that there are any cut and dried answers here especially without much more detailed information about your overall circumstances. If you are seriously looking at the investment property opportunity then you need to crunch the numbers carefully/objectively (including tax and other expenses) and make sure that the venture is viable. Also don't assume that past property price growth rates will continue indefinitely!


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## fatboyPee (30 May 2006)

ClubMan said:
			
		

> Email them at the contact address on the page linked above with details of your policy number(s) and ask them to send you out a valuation and any other details that you need.
> Surrender value doesn't necessarily mean that you can cash it in. A surrender value may be the value of the fund when transferring it into another pension scheme etc.


Will do. Thanks. I understand what you mean. I'll clarify whether this is the case, even transferring (if limited penalties) maybe an option).




			
				ClubMan said:
			
		

> By whom? It is not always meaningful to infer what your pension contributions should be based on a target retirement income of x% of your current or projected salary. It often makes more sense to see how much you can reasonably save/invest in your pension and avail of as much tax relief/deferral as possible. In addition just because you can't afford €800 p.m. doesn't mean that you should give up on the pension altogether and look at alternatives such as property.
> 
> ...
> 
> Investing in a single propery is arguably a lot more risky than indirectly investing in a basket of equities and other assets diversified by asset class, geographic region, risk/reward profile especially when the pension investments benefit from significant tax reliefs.


 
I know, just 2 things in my mind: 1: no pension 2: at some point moving back into civilisation.. the option of buying and renting out seem a good one alongside a pension if possible as I honestly dont envisage house prices in the village to go down, if anything I will shortly be priced totally out of the market....

Thanks

FBP.


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## fatboyPee (30 May 2006)

ClubMan said:
			
		

> I don't think that this is necessarily true. If you are investing in a property then you might be better off going for an interest only mortgage and keeping your pension savings separate. I don't think that people should necessarily link investment property interest only mortgages and their pension.
> 
> Ultimately I don't think that there are any cut and dried answers here especially without much more detailed information about your overall circumstances. If you are seriously looking at the investment property opportunity then you need to crunch the numbers carefully/objectively (including tax and other expenses) and make sure that the venture is viable. Also don't assume that past property price growth rates will continue indefinitely!


 
Currently I'm on an Interest Only mortgage (not moved from Building Phase yet).... will need to sort that out too....

As for overall circumstances, I'm the sole earner, wife at home with 3 children. The area we live in is, like everywhere up and coming and "benefitting" from the Dublin boom in as much as people getting out and relocating to the country life with wads and wads of cash putting house prices comeasurately thru the roof.. this looks set to continue and even if the demand drops off they will not likely come down to prices below what they are now...


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## ClubMan (30 May 2006)

Given the choice of staking most or all of my retirement income on a single property or spreading it across a range of asset classes, risk/reward profiles, geographic regions etc. I know which one I'd choose. The latter in case it's not obvious. You already own your own home (albeit mortgaged) as far as I can see so you are already highly invested in Irish property. As such it makes sense to diversify your investments a bit more for example by investing in a pension or other fund which deals in equities etc. If/when property becomes a less significant part of your overall portfolio then see about increasing your exposure to it. Otherwise you are taking more risks that necessary with your current and future net worth.


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## fatboyPee (31 May 2006)

ClubMan said:
			
		

> Given the choice of staking most or all of my retirement income on a single property or spreading it across a range of asset classes, risk/reward profiles, geographic regions etc. I know which one I'd choose. The latter in case it's not obvious. You already own your own home (albeit mortgaged) as far as I can see so you are already highly invested in Irish property. As such it makes sense to diversify your investments a bit more for example by investing in a pension or other fund which deals in equities etc. If/when property becomes a less significant part of your overall portfolio then see about increasing your exposure to it. Otherwise you are taking more risks that necessary with your current and future net worth.


 
Thanks,

My point I suppose is that at this time in my life I would not ever be able to create a fund equal to the equity that will accrue from the house I have just built before I retire. I will take out a pension but overall if I invested now in my downsized property (fairly inevitable given the location of my current property) I wolud serve 2 purposes, 1 creating myself a reasonable pension fund upon the sale of my existing house and 2 have a mortgage free retirement in a more manageable property. To me this seems to make more sense than trying to build up a pension fund with all available assets and still struggling, inevitably having to sell my existing house but not being able to afford a small house in the village/town as it will be by then....

Once again, thanks for the replies they're greatly appreciated.

Cheers

FBP..


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## Capital1 (31 May 2006)

Clubman - a pension mortgage is a pension that invests in a  basket of fixed interest/equities/property etc.

The main advantage of this is that the tax free cash from the pension can be used to pay off the capital on the loan.

You seem to be confused, a pension mortage will allow FBP to invest in a broad range of asset classes while gaining exposure to the (hopeful) appreciation in property over the period of his pension.


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## ClubMan (31 May 2006)

Capital1 said:
			
		

> Clubman - a pension mortgage is a pension that invests in a  basket of fixed interest/equities/property etc.


A pension mortgage is a bundling of two otherwise separate products - an interest only mortgage and a pension. A bit like an endowment mortgage being a bundle of an interest only mortgage and a (non pension) investment scheme. Without specific reasons to do so why bundle these? At best it is unnecessary and at worst the one stop shop lender selling the bundled product could charge over the top on commissions etc. If somebody has an investment property then there are strong arguments (outlines elsewhere) as to why they might use an interest only mortgage. If they also need a pension or another investment scheme then, all things being equal, I would tend to keep that separate and shop around for the best value. 


> The main advantage of this is that the tax free cash from the pension can be used to pay off the capital on the loan.


That can be done anyway even with a standalone pension not linked to the interest only mortgage.


> You seem to be confused, a pension mortage will allow FBP to invest in a broad range of asset classes while gaining exposure to the (hopeful) appreciation in property over the period of his pension.


I am not confused at all. See above. If you can explain why and when somebody should necessarily buy a bundled pension mortgage (interest only mortgage and pension linked to the mortgage) rather than buying the two products separately they I would be very interested to hear them.


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## Capital1 (31 May 2006)

The bank will consider pension as basis for funding mortgage.
This means that person could borrow more than if they do not have pension.

That is just one reason.

The second reason is that it gives someone a goal for their pension funding, and keeps the person focused.

It is certainly not always the best solution - but for some people in some situations it can be a good solution.

You also said earlier that they would be singularly exposed to property by taking a pension mortage - you are utterly incorrect here - the pension will still depend on the performance of the fund in which the pension invests.


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## ClubMan (31 May 2006)

Capital1 said:
			
		

> The bank will consider pension as basis for funding mortgage.
> This means that person could borrow more than if they do not have pension.
> 
> That is just one reason.


 This does not explain why one should go for a pension mortgage rather than a standaone pension and an interest only mortgage. I am very wary of bundled financial products and industry professionals who recommend them especially given the scope for misselling and high charges.


> The second reason is that it gives someone a goal for their pension funding, and keeps the person focused.


 Yes - that is why I recommended pension savings several times above. Just not necessarily as part of a bundled pension mortgage product.


> It is certainly not always the best solution - but for some people in some situations it can be a good solution.


 Why do you think that it might be the best or a good solution in this specific case especially in preference to a separate interest only mortgage and pension?


> You also said earlier that they would be singularly exposed to property by taking a pension mortage - you are utterly incorrect here - the pension will still depend on the performance of the fund in which the pension invests.


 I did not. I said that by owning their own home (still mortgaged) and investing further in Irish property they would be exposing themselves to significant risk by concentrating most or all of their net worth in a single asset class, risk/reward profile, geographic region etc. I never mentioned pension mortgages in this context. Please don't misrepresent my comments. If you have trouble understanding them ask me for clarification and I will explain them in simpler terms.

You have not explained clearly what the advantages of a pension mortgage are over a separate pension and interest only mortgage in this specific case or in general. As I said I am wary when industry professionals recommend bundling of products without explaining the advantages to the consumer clearly.

On a more general point the original poster really needs to get away from the specifics of pensions and investment properties and take a broader view of his situation, plans, needs etc. This should probably be done with a good multi-agency intermediary or authorised advisor who knows what they are talking about.


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## Capital1 (31 May 2006)

I did not say it was the best solution in this case.

I said they can be a good solution in certain cases.

For self-employed people who do not have significant equity or personal savings it can be difficult to raise >70% on an investment property.
The best opportunity this person may have to raise more (enough to buy the property of interest) may be through a pension mortgage.

The interest only loan will hopefully be met by the rental income.

Keeping interest high in this way is good because it means all of the rent can avoid paying tax because it will be offset by the interest.

In the meantime the person has a SPECIFIC TARGET (it sounds to me like FBP has never had a specific target for pension funding before) - and that will be to match the capital repayment.

This can be met by the TFLS from the pension mortgage (25% of the fund).

So, advantages:

Ability to borrow more than if just went for interst mortgage
SPECIFIC TARGET for the first time in relation to his pension funding
Disadvantages:

Interest only mortgage expensive compared to capital & interest mortgage
Risk of property fall
Make sure interest rate is most competetive available (bundled financial products can sometimes take advantage of consumers)


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## ClubMan (31 May 2006)

Capital1 said:
			
		

> For self-employed people who do not have significant equity or personal savings it can be difficult to raise >70% on an investment property.
> The best opportunity this person may have to raise more (enough to buy the property of interest) may be through a pension mortgage.


 Is the original poster self employed? I can't see anything to that effect earlier.


> The interest only loan will hopefully be met by the rental income.


 Still no explanation as to why one should bundle the pension and interest only mortgage.


> Keeping interest high in this way is good because it means all of the rent can avoid paying tax because it will be offset by the interest.


 I know - covered here: Interest only mortgage


> In the meantime the person has a SPECIFIC TARGET (it sounds to me like FBP has never had a specific target for pension funding before) - and that will be to match the capital repayment.


 Again the target can be set independent of bundling the pension and mortgage. Unless I'm mistaken the lender is not going to keep tabs on the borrower's pension contributions so the target must be set and adhered to unilaterally anyway.


> This can be met by the TFLS from the pension mortgage (25% of the fund).


 Jargon explanation for those who might now know: _TFLS _= tax free lump sum.


> Ability to borrow more than if just went for interst mortgage
> SPECIFIC TARGET for the first time in relation to his pension funding


 These advantages all apply to an unbundled pension and interest only mortgage. I was asking what the specific advantages of a bundled product were. I think it's important that an industry insider recommended bundled products should be challenged to explain why consumers should do this. In the absence of clear advantages of buying bundled financial products and in the presence of the risk of misselling and overcharging I strongly believe that they should shop around for them separately and mix and match to their own specific needs.



> Make sure interest rate is most competetive available (bundled financial products can sometimes take advantage of consumers)


 This alone is a good reason to avoid them unless there are clear advantages to bundling.


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## Capital1 (31 May 2006)

This is ridiculous!

I just outlined advantages and disadvantages.

A good AA will keep the focus on the target.

It is not up to lending institiuion to keep tabs on his pension - the AA will do that.

The lending institiuion may offer better terms to borrowers (>70% for example) on a bundled product than unbundled product - that is the AA's job to make sure - if you trust advisers and institutions so little as you seem to, then I am amazed that you do not keep all your cash in a mattress under your bed.

Cynicism is not constructive.


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## ClubMan (31 May 2006)

Capital1 said:
			
		

> I just outlined advantages and disadvantages.


 Not of a bundled product specifically. The advantages apply just as much to an unbundled product. However the misselling/overcharging disadvantgage is specific to the bundled product. In the absence of further reasons why bundling is a good idea this is good enough reason to avoid it and industry insiders who arbitrarily recommend such bundling.


> The lending institiuion may offer better terms to borrowers (>70% for example) on a bundled product than unbundled product


 Quite possibly at the cost of higher charges that might be available on an unbundled product. What specific lenders offer such preferential deals for bundled pension mortgages and what charges apply?


> if you trust advisers and institutions so little as you seem to, then I am amazed that you do not keep all your cash in a mattress under your bed.


 Once again your are misrepresenting my comments. I never said that I distrusted advisors or institutions. Just those, for example, that recommend bundling of products without obvious good reasons and perhaps tell customers not to worry their little heads about the details.


> Cynicism is not constructive.


 Like suggesting that somebody put their money under the mattress for example?

Anyway - I've said my piece on being wary of _Greeks _bearing gifts (industry insiders pushing bundled products) and don't think that further discussion of this matter will help the original poster so I'll leave it at that.


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## Capital1 (31 May 2006)

Why do you quote all my messages?
Is it because you have so little of merit to say yourself (besides nit-pick at every single line of my comment)?

I am not trying to sell this person a pension mortgage.

I am giving the person information on how - if they are thinking in terms of a PRSA as against a property - they should view the PRSA or any other pension as a means of funding for this property.
I do not care whether they bundle or not.

Irish Life-Permanent TSB will allow pension mortgages up to 90% and the same lender may not be able to get over 70% if they unbundled.

I never told anyone not to worry about the detail.
The detail is for the client and their AA.
This website is for general useful ideas, obviously nobody should take out a pension of any form without thinking of ALL the pros and cons.


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## ClubMan (31 May 2006)

Capital1 said:
			
		

> Why do you quote all my messages?


 Because it makes it easier for me and others to maintain context and to see what specific point I am responding to. 


> Is it because you have so little of merit to say yourself (besides nit-pick at every single line of my comment)?


 I have said lots of substance in this and many other threads thanks.


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## Capital1 (31 May 2006)

Not in your last three messages in this thread anyway, you're welcome.


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## ClubMan (31 May 2006)

Capital1 said:
			
		

> Not in this one, you're welcome.


Come again? What are you referring to? Are you insinuation that none of my comments in this thread have been factual and constructive? Feel free to rebut anything that you feel is incorrect or disagree with. However please don't misrepresent my comments or engage in incivility as you have done several times here and elsewhere.


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## Capital1 (31 May 2006)

I am saying that you keep asking the same question and do not answer the poster's questions - you just attempt to question everybody else's advice except your own.

That is incivility - and cynicism - maybe it's your age has led you to be so cynical about everything, but most people would prefer suggestions than a barrage of negative comments.


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## ClubMan (31 May 2006)

Capital1 said:
			
		

> I am saying that you keep asking the same question and do not answer the poster's questions - you just attempt to question everybody else's advice except your own.


I make no apology for challenging what I see as dodgy comments (such as recommending a bundled pension mortgage over separate products where is no good reason to do so and where it might actually be a bad idea for the consumer). If such comments are repeated then so too will my challenges. This is the nature of a discussion forum - to voice opinions, ideally based on fact and (at least here) in the interest of consumers.


> That is incivility - and cynicism


I disagree.


> maybe it's your age


Whence this non sequitur? 


> has led you to be so cynical about everything


Don't confuse skepticism (especially of vested interests) with cynicism.


> but most people would prefer suggestions than a barrage of negative comments.


I see only one person objecting to my contributions and dismissing them as a _"barrage of negative comments"_. I shall draw my own conclusions.


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## Capital1 (31 May 2006)

Well I presume they are waiting for you to suggest some pension solutions for the poster.

That is what I am doing from now on.

In relation to pension mortgage - unless this person is a company director (in which case the person could set-up a SART) then the best solution for this person if they want to start a pension and buy a property is to use some combination of pension and property investments.

You can call it what you like - pension mortgage, a pension and an interest only mortgage, bundle or unbundle - I don't care what way the person wants to do it.

But it is for ideas like this that the message was posted.

Not for someone like you to question every suggestion, the details of interest rate charged, commission, allocation rates, bid/offer spreads, rip off etc...they apply to everything - anybody can get ripped off - that is up to the person to make sure they do not get a bad deal.


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## ClubMan (31 May 2006)

Capital1 said:
			
		

> You can call it what you like - pension mortgage, a pension and an interest only mortgage, bundle or unbundle - I don't care what way the person wants to do it.


 Er, that is the key point. *You *may not care but the consumer should. A bundled product carries risks of misselling and overcharging that separate products do not. Consumers should be wary (i.e. maintain a healthy skepticism, not be cynical) of product bundling especially when recommended by industry insiders.


> rip off etc...they apply to everything - anybody can get ripped off - that is up to the person to make sure they do not get a bad deal.


 And, all things being equal, by not unnecessarily going for bundled products they reduce the risk of being overcharged or even "ripped-off" (a phrase that I never use lightly).

Back to the original post I am not convinced that pension and property is necessarily the best option for the original poster. It's very difficult to say in the presence of partial information. They may want to buy an investment/retirement property in addition to their existing home but this may not be the best option for their circumstances. That is why I was recommending them to take a step back and review their overall situation and only then determine what might be the possible and best options. I have already suggested that the original poster clarify their existing pension situation. To recomment specific products (pensions, investment/interest only mortgages etc.) is premature in my opinion. They need to do an objective fact find/financial review (unilaterally or ideally with a good intermediary) and only then decide what they should be doing in terms of financial planning.

However if they do want more detailed information and recommendations about specific pension options then there is a wealth of existing threads on these issues in this forum that are of general interest to anybody reviewing their pension needs.


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## Capital1 (31 May 2006)

ClubMan said:
			
		

> Er, that is the key point. *You *may not care but the consumer should. A bundled product carries risks of misselling and overcharging that separate products do not. Consumers should be wary (i.e. maintain a healthy skepticism, not be cynical) of product bundling especially when recommended by industry insiders.
> 
> 
> And, all things being equal, by not unnecessarily going for bundled products they reduce the risk of being overcharged or even "ripped-off" (a phrase that I never use lightly).


 
I never recommended bundling - I put forward the idea of thinking of property and pension together, not separately.
Let us not forget - you had not even mentioned the idea of using the pension in any way in terms of the property - so I am glad that a useful discussion of pension funding property has ensued thanks to my thinking.

Not at all - a person can be ripped off by a pension product easily, particularly by a long nil-allocation period, by capital (rather than accumulation) units, and by high up-front charges.


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## Brendan Burgess (31 May 2006)

Capital1

I have no doubt that your expertise will be useful to the people on Askaboutmoney. I have no doubt that you will learn some things from Askaboutmoney. But there is a house style. There is a way of disagreeing with people. There is a way of correcting mistakes.  It is not the same style that is very popular on other discussion forums. We discourage the following types of comments. If you are able to answer the questions and disagree with other posters without resorting to these types of comments, you are very welcome to continue posting. If you are unable to comply with the posting guidelines, please find some other forum which would appreciate you more.




> you are utterly incorrect here
> 
> This is ridiculous!
> 
> ...


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## Capital1 (1 Jun 2006)

Brendan - I will not post solutions anymore so.

I was trying to help a user - the messages posted by Clubman I found extremely unhelpful.

Thanks for your message - I will leave you and Club to it in this thread.


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## ClubMan (1 Jun 2006)

Capital1 said:
			
		

> the messages posted by Clubman I found extremely unhelpful.


 Well the important thing is that the original poster found some of my comments useful.


			
				fatboyPee said:
			
		

> Hi ClubMan,
> 
> Thanks alot for your comprehensive reply ! Much appreciated !
> 
> ...


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## Capital1 (1 Jun 2006)

ClubMan, excellent work, great solutions put forward.


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## ClubMan (1 Jun 2006)

Thanks.


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