# Islam in Ireland



## cremeegg (3 Sep 2014)

I make a conscious effort not to allow my opinions of Islam be influenced by the behaviour of jihadis in the Middle East, surely their thinking cannot be representative of Muslims generally.

There is an article in todays IT about Islam in education in Ireland.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/soci...ools-to-accommodate-islamic-beliefs-1.1915810

The guy quoted Dr Ali Selim is described as "A spokesman for the Muslim community in Ireland" and lectures in Mater Dei and Trinity. Here perhaps is someone who is more representative of Muslims generally.

I am sorry but his attitude to women is completely unacceptable in the modern world. Alarming!


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## delgirl (3 Sep 2014)

In 2009 Selim on RTE’s “Does God Hate…?” series when asked about the practice of stoning women who have committed adultery in Islamic countries he was loath to condemn the barbaric practice outright and instead declared that it was symbolic; small comfort to those in Iran and Somalia who have suffered this horrific fate. 

It is astonishing that the spokesperson of an Islamic organization considered by the government to be part of the establishment would not equivocally denounce this despicable practice. 

A practice that had been unknown for centuries in the Muslim world up until the relatively recent development of the Salafi sect which the Muslim Brotherhood espouses. 

Ali Selim subsequently equated the decision of Muslim women not to wear the hijab with immodesty; this echoes an attitude that blames women for sexual harassment. What Selim fails to acknowledge is the rampant harassment suffered by women in his native Egypt with or without the hijab.

I wouldn't pay a great deal of attention to anything this man says - if he's not happy with the way schools in Ireland are run and the amount of freedom women here have, perhaps he should return to his native Egypt, or move to a country where Sharia Law is enforced, where he might be happier.


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## Ceist Beag (3 Sep 2014)

So in his wish to make Irish schools more inclusive he actually wants them to be more exclusive? What a strange way of looking at things!
His attitude, not only to women, but in general in this article is worrying to say the least. I would completely agree with one of the replies to that article - "Religious ideology has no place in education in the modern world, it's a personal belief and should be practiced in private.".


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## cremeegg (3 Sep 2014)

You certainly seem to better informed on this issue than I am. However when you say



delgirl said:


> I wouldn't pay a great deal of attention to anything this man says .



I am concerned that given his position, what he says carries weight.

As a lecturer in Mater Die does this man have an input into the formation of education policy in Ireland? 

If his views are representative of muslims in general no muslim should be allowed have any role in any Irish school.


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## delgirl (3 Sep 2014)

Ceist Beag said:


> "Religious ideology has no place in education in the modern world, it's a personal belief and should be practiced in private.".


+1  all religions, not just Islam.

Having lived in the Middle East for many years and having been:-

- forced to wear black garb that I had no wish or religious reason to do in 40+ degree heat;
- forbidden to eat, drink or smoke in public from dawn to dusk during Ramadan (which I do not personally observe);
- forbidden to drive;
- shouted at in the street by an Iman and his hangers-on for daring to jog in a track suit which covered my body from chin to toe;
- witness to a French friend who was beaten with sticks by the Mutawa (Saudi religious police) for allowing her fringe to fall out from beneath the black garb;

...   etc. etc.

... it astonishes me to hear the expectations and demands of those who _choose _to live in a Christian country.

I _chose _to live in Saudi, Kuwait and Qatar and had to respect their culture, dress code, fasting habits etc.  There was no choice and no tolerance.  If you were caught even mentioning Christianity to a Muslim, you'd be on the next plane home.


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## Delboy (3 Sep 2014)

This is the start of it....with a population of 65k (+growing fast), and probably starting to spread out more across the country, their own schools cannot accommodate them all.
So they now want to change the existing school systems to fit in with their beliefs under the banner of 'inclusion'.
Pushing religion is schools should be stopped inside school hours. But the segregation of boys from girls during school activities such as sports, plays etc is just stone age stuff. 

Our country, our rules. If you don't like them, no one forced you to come here or is forcing you to stay.

Problems is, this guy will be listened to by the Dept and many other 'influential' voices in Irish society.....no one wants to be called racist!


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## delgirl (3 Sep 2014)

Delboy said:


> Problems is, this guy will be listened to by the Dept and many other 'influential' voices in Irish society.....no one wants to be called racist!


  .. and this leads to institutionalised political correctness which has all sorts of consequences as it has had in Rotherham.


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## Delboy (3 Sep 2014)

I didn't want to mention Rotherham.

He didn't espouse his views on same sex relationships and how they are currently dealt with in schools when the topic arises. Funny that


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## delgirl (3 Sep 2014)

Mr Selim has already stated to the Irish Independent in 2006 that he would like to see Sharia Law adopted in Ireland 'should the Muslim population be in the majority'.

In 2001, there were less than 2,000 Muslims in Ireland. Now there are nearly 50,000. By 2020, there will be an estimated 100,000. By 2043, Islam will be Ireland’s second largest religion.

Certainly something to think about!


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## Conan (3 Sep 2014)

It was only a matter of time before this issue was raised by the Muslim clergy. It is more than ironic that Dr Selim wants the Irish system changed to accommodate his minority beliefs whereas in countries when Muslims represent the majority they make no effort to accommodate those of other religions (or none). 
The reality is that the vast majority of Muslims in Ireland are immigrants to Ireland. That being so, they should have to accept our traditions and standards.  But in the main they make no effort to do so. They want change to be a one-way street, i.e. we must change. 
As a religion, Muslims are the most intolerant. One only has to look at what is happening in the Middle East and the events in Rotherham. If Dr Selim wants his children educated according to Sharia law then let them establish their own schools. Why should Irish state schools have to introduce change which is not consistent with Irish standards and values just to accommodate Muslims who for example want females segregated from males.
If Muslim immigrants don't like our values and standards (which I think are far preferable to those espoused by Muslims) then they have a choice of returning to their Muslim homeland. I am sure their ISIS co-religionists will welcome them with open arms (sic).


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## cremeegg (3 Sep 2014)

Conan said:


> If Dr Selim wants his children educated according to Sharia law then let them establish their own schools.



I dont agree with this.

No child should have an education which promotes the idea that women have less responsibility in the public sphere than men.

Every child deserves better. 

I don't want my children to have to share a world people who have grown up with the idea that women have less rights than men.


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## Leper (3 Sep 2014)

There is nothing the Irish people can do to prevent the spread of Islam in Ireland.  When we emigrated we spread the ideals of the Roman Catholic Church especially in the UK and USA.

So many of us have abandoned our religion in Ireland and now we are concerned about the increase of the practice of other religions here by immigrants.  Attempting to prevent the spread of Islam now is like trying to prevent the sun from rising.  Remember Islam is private to people from Islamic countries.


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## Delboy (3 Sep 2014)

Leper said:


> There is nothing the Irish people can do to prevent the spread of Islam in Ireland.  When we emigrated we spread the ideals of the Roman Catholic Church especially in the UK and USA.
> 
> So many of us have abandoned our religion in Ireland and now we are concerned about the increase of the practice of other religions here by immigrants.  Attempting to prevent the spread of Islam now is like trying to prevent the sun from rising.  Remember Islam is private to people from Islamic countries.



We can do a lot to stop the spread of Islam....we can have a coherent immigration policy based on whats best for Ireland and what the Irish people want.
According to the good Dr, there are 65k muslims in Ireland...growing rapidly. Must have moved into Ireland. 
Did we need this 65K? How many work?....how many work in servicing their own community only (immigration creating jobs for more immigrants)?....is there any real attempt at integration?


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## Leper (4 Sep 2014)

Delboy said:


> We can do a lot to stop the spread of Islam....we can have a coherent immigration policy based on whats best for Ireland and what the Irish people want.
> According to the good Dr, there are 65k muslims in Ireland...growing rapidly. Must have moved into Ireland.
> Did we need this 65K? How many work?....how many work in servicing their own community only (immigration creating jobs for more immigrants)?....is there any real attempt at integration?



1. Please suggest your guidelines for a coherent immigration policy.
2. If we have 65k Muslims here, so what? How many of Irish emigrated?
3. Any kind of work is good.  Ask any of Irish unemployed.
4. What have we done to integrate with our immigrants.  As a former emigrant to the UK I was happy at the way the Brits welcomed me.


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## Delboy (4 Sep 2014)

Leper said:


> 1. Please suggest your guidelines for a coherent immigration policy.
> 2. If we have 65k Muslims here, so what? How many of Irish emigrated?
> 3. Any kind of work is good.  Ask any of Irish unemployed.
> 4. What have we done to integrate with our immigrants.  As a former emigrant to the UK I was happy at the way the Brits welcomed me.



1. Points based entry system to ensure those jobs/industries that are short of professionals, can get them
2. We're not talking about Irish emigrating- you  start a new thread for that, but it's a red herring in a debate like this
3. No, not any kind of work is good, i.e. Immigrants opening restaurants to serve their own community and then bringing in kitchen and waiting staff to work there (at min wage at best) is not good employment. 
4. What needs to be done outside of normal day to day life to integrate. Kids mix together in schools and creches as mine have done. Adults work together with each other. Sports clubs seem very accommodating, though it seems they need to change their ways to suit the Dr. 
Did you get a marching band or something every day you left the house?


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## Purple (4 Sep 2014)

I'm in favour of a type of oath of allegiance, like they have in the USA. It would not be jingoistic or even that nationalistic but it should require all Irish citizens to expressly state that they hold the laws of this country above any other laws, be they Catholic Cannon law, Sharia law or the laws of another state. All applicant citizens should be required to swear the oath as a condition of their citizens and all current citizens, be they naturalised or born here, should also have to take it. If they refuse they should lose their right to vote in any local or national election.
If Muslim Clerics or Catholic Priests have a problem with that they are welcome to leave. I don't care if they were born here or not.


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## T McGibney (4 Sep 2014)

Purple said:


> I'm in favour of a type of oath of allegiance, like they have in the USA. It would not be jingoistic or even that nationalistic but it should require all Irish citizens to expressly state that they hold the laws of this country above any other laws, be they Catholic Cannon law, Sharia law or the laws of another state.




I wouldn't sign or swear an oath like that. Although I count myself a law-abiding citizen I reserve the right to conscientiously object to any future law.


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## Purple (4 Sep 2014)

T McGibney said:


> I wouldn't sign or swear an oath like that. Although I count myself a law-abiding citizen I reserve the right to conscientiously object to any future law.



You can object all you like but you have to abide by the law. 
If you want to change the law then campaign to do so but there is no "higher power" that takes precedence. Objecting is fine but not on the basis of other laws, be they state or religious. That's what I'm aiming for. 

We have already has a foreign state inciting Irish citizens to sedition by ordering priests to give precedent to Cannon Law when children were being raped and abused. At least we know that the Vatican is a hostile state and we know that they think their writ should run in this country in cases of alleged criminal activity that involve their employees, agents and citizens. What we don't know is who or what other organisations might hold our laws in the same contempt.

I have no doubt that most Muslims in this country want to live in peace and are happy to accept our culture and laws as they are (even if they might disagree with them). The problem is that debates such as this can often move away from the specifics into jingoistic, xenophobic and downright racist generalisations.


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## T McGibney (4 Sep 2014)

Purple said:


> We have already has a foreign state inciting Irish citizens to sedition by ordering priests to give precedent to Cannon Law when children were being raped and abused. At least we know that the Vatican is a hostile state and we know that they think their writ should run in this country in cases of alleged criminal activity that involve their employees, agents and citizens.



With respect that is a load of baloney, and offensive baloney at that. 

Just because the alleged precedence of Canon Law has been cited as a phoney excuse by some churchmen for their own inexcusable inactions in dealing with child abuse allegations and worse doesn't for a second mean that such excuses hold any water whatsoever.

If you think that an Oath of Allegiance to the State is really going to eliminate such bogus excuses, you should perhaps consider that the Canon Law precedence nonsense first surfaced in the context of child abuse cases in the USA, which already has an Oath of Allegiance.


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## Delboy (4 Sep 2014)

Some more from the Doc and his new book
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/soci...d-seek-integration-not-assimilation-1.1917937


> Muslims in Ireland are not interested in assimilation, according to a new book to be published next Thursday.
> 
> Muslim children can feel alienated at school.”
> He gives an example: “Every year from early November many activities revolve around Christmas. Classrooms are decorated and works of art are visible everywhere in schools. In addition, children spend a lot of time preparing for performances, such as carol services and plays, which are performed at school or in regional competitions.
> ...





> More generally,and where Muslim parents in particular are concerned, Dr Selim points out that “when it comes to shaking hands with members of the opposite sex, most Muslims are reluctant and many of them may refuse. This behaviour does not imply a lack of respect or that the other person is not clean.”
> For some Muslims to do so would be “a clear breach Muslim teaching” or “is inconsistent with their culture.” Similarly, “Muslims do not believe in eye contact between members of the opposite sex.” This was “significant for teachers when dealing with Muslim parents.”
> Also, and “from a Muslim perspective, members of the same sex can stand very close to each other” but members of the opposite sex are to be kept “at arm’s length. Apart from facial features, the entire body is still. Body language, in this case, is limited to facial features.” This too was “significant when dealing with Muslim parents,” he said.



So neutralise xmas, or maybe do away with it altogether. Santa = a problem!

Keep them boys and girls at arms length, from the 1st day they start school. Even the teachers must look at the floor or ceiling when talking to the parents at the parent-teacher meeting! And no frowning, smiling, winking, twitching, staring, grimacing....

And this guy is a leading figure in the Muslim community here, the spokesman for them so to speak. 

Comical Ali rather than Dr Ali if you ask me


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## Leper (5 Sep 2014)

Delboy said:


> 1. Points based entry system to ensure those jobs/industries that are short of professionals, can get them
> 2. We're not talking about Irish emigrating- you  start a new thread for that, but it's a red herring in a debate like this
> 3. No, not any kind of work is good, i.e. Immigrants opening restaurants to serve their own community and then bringing in kitchen and waiting staff to work there (at min wage at best) is not good employment.
> 4. What needs to be done outside of normal day to day life to integrate. Kids mix together in schools and creches as mine have done. Adults work together with each other. Sports clubs seem very accommodating, though it seems they need to change their ways to suit the Dr.
> Did you get a marching band or something every day you left the house?


1. When I emigrated to the UK (in the days when air travel was expensively out of the question) I did so on a  "forever" basis and not two years break.  It was fortunate for me to have a letter offering me a low level civil service job waiting for me on my 2nd Christmas returning home. There was no points system for me when I went to the UK. I was accepted with open arms.
2. If we talk about people immigrating we must talk of Irish emigration too.
3. We have laws about exploitation of foreign workers in the hospitality industry.  If these laws are not enforced we have a problem with the enforcers.
4. Integration is necessary.  I found this in plentiful supply in the UK both from myself and the Brits.

Your marching band comment is unnecessary and a poncy whim from somebody who probably sailed through a relatively costless 3rd level education system here not aware that back in the sixties we had to pay for even 2nd level education and 3rd Level was but n unreachable dream for most. Not only that we lived with constant recession which makes our current financial state look like a doddle.

I asked questions, most of which you failed to answer.  Incidentally, how Irish are the Irish nowadays?  Everywhere I look they are apeing what is happening in the UK, following Premiership soccer, unable to speak Irish, ignorant of Irish history, glued to foreign soaps, etc.  I can see the Muslims gathering for their evening meal discussing subjects like when will the Irish act like Irish people.


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## Purple (5 Sep 2014)

T McGibney said:


> With respect that is a load of baloney, and offensive baloney at that.
> 
> Just because the alleged precedence of Canon Law has been cited as a phoney excuse by some churchmen for their own inexcusable inactions in dealing with child abuse allegations and worse doesn't for a second mean that such excuses hold any water whatsoever.
> 
> If you think that an Oath of Allegiance to the State is really going to eliminate such bogus excuses, you should perhaps consider that the Canon Law precedence nonsense first surfaced in the context of child abuse cases in the USA, which already has an Oath of Allegiance.



Cardinal Castrillion Hoyos told the Irish Bishops Conference in Sligo in 1998 that child sex abuse allegations should be reported to the Vatican and not to the civil authorities. Some Bishops were furious, with shouting, banging of tables and threats to resign but in the end they all bent under the yoke of Cannon Law. This was reported by many media sources. It was sedition by a foreign power; an evil, callous and cowardly act and an utter betrayal of the Catholic Church in Ireland and it’s clergy and laity.   
The slim-ball that ran the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (formerly known as The Inquisition) for over a decade, Cardinal Ratzinger, was the man behind the cover-up. He knew more about the detail and scale of clerical sex abuse than anyone else in the world as every report from every country went across his desk while he was in that office. He then became Pope and lied through his teeth about what he knew and didn’t know. He was the man behind the cover-ups, the half truths, the half apologies and the hostile treatment of abuse survivors. He was also the Head of State of the Vatican. How was it not a hostile power?
Clergy take an oath to obey their superiors. That oath should not be taken if it conflicts with their duties as a citizen or even a resident of this state.
They same applies to anyone who lives here. 
People seeking to live here (or anywhere in the EU) should have to affirm that they hold no laws above the civil laws within the EU.


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## Delboy (5 Sep 2014)

I cannot see why when we talk about a subject such as Muslim immigration and integration to Ireland, that we then have to start talking about the 'Irish having gone to every country in the world'. 
To me, thats an argument thats used to shut down the already very limited debate we have in this country on immigration. I don't care if millions of Irish left here 150 years ago to settle in largely 'empty' countries/continents- it's not relevant to this debate.

You didn't deal with the substantive point I made about immigrants coming in to work for other immigrants- the minimum wage point was not what I was trying to point out. It's the fact that when a Pakistani, for example, restaurant opens up, that several immigrants must then be brought into work in these places doing non-skilled jobs. That to me is pointless and adds nothing to this country except more pressure on housing and services.

You talk about how you were welcomed into the UK and found lots of integration over there from the locals! But what does that mean? Your just generalising.
How does that tie in with what immigrants are finding here, especially Muslim's which is the topic of this thread.
Have we shut them out of the school system? Have we confined them to live in a certain area of the country? Have GAA clubs said no foreigners allowed? Have we stopped them from receiving welfare or going for jobs?
So what did you find over in the UK that was so special that we haven't done here.

And while talking about the UK- they have made a total mess of immigration over there. Multiculturalism has failed some leading figures on all sides have said. The Labour party has admitted to having let too many immigrants in during their last stint in office.


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## T McGibney (5 Sep 2014)

Purple said:


> Cardinal Castrillion Hoyos told the Irish Bishops Conference in Sligo in 1998 that child sex abuse allegations should be reported to the Vatican and not to the civil authorities. Some Bishops were furious, with shouting, banging of tables and threats to resign but in the end they all bent under the yoke of Cannon Law. This was reported by many media sources. It was sedition by a foreign power; an evil, callous and cowardly act and an utter betrayal of the Catholic Church in Ireland and it’s clergy and laity.



Have you a source for this wild accusation?

It's totally at odds with the following:



> In this regard, the then Prefect of the Congregation, Cardinal Darío Castrillón Hoyos, in his meeting with the Irish Bishops at Rosses Point, County Sligo (Ireland), on 12 November 1998 unequivocally stated:_ “I also wish to say with great clarity that the Church, especially through its Pastors (Bishops), should not in any way put an obstacle in the legitimate path of civil justice, when such is initiated by those who have such rights, while at the same time, she should move forward with her own canonical procedures, in truth, justice and charity towards all.” _



Source: http://www.vatican.va/resources/resources_sintesi-risposta-gilmore_20110903_en.html


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## Duke of Marmalade (5 Sep 2014)

T McGibney said:


> Have you a source for this wild accusation?
> 
> It's totally at odds with the following:
> 
> ...


 
Those sound like weasel words to me.  The key qualifier is _"when initiated by those that have such rights"._  This is clearly code for telling the bishops that they have no such rights but must restrict their initiatives to the canon law route.


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## T McGibney (5 Sep 2014)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> Those sound like weasel words to me.  The key qualifier is _"when initiated by those that have such rights"._  This is clearly code for telling the bishops that they have no such rights but must restrict their initiatives to the canon law route.



That's hardly the case (otherwise, why would the Vatican have left themselves open to attack by including it so prominently in their response to Eamonn Gilmore over the Cloyne Report?) , but in any event it's a long way away from the lurid account of the Rosses Point meeting given by_ Purple_.

The folllowing paragraph in the Vatican's response, immediately succeeding the piece I quoted earlier, clarifies further:



> It should be noted that, at the time, not only the Church but also the Irish State was engaged in efforts to improve its own legislation on child sexual abuse. To this end, the Irish Government organized an extensive consultation on mandatory reporting in 1996 and, after taking into account the reservations expressed by various professional groups and individuals in civil society – views broadly in line with those expressed by the Congregation – it decided not to introduce mandatory reporting into the Irish legal system. Given that the Irish Government of the day decided not to legislate on the matter, it is difficult to see how Archbishop Storero’s letter to the Irish Bishops, which was issued subsequently, could possibly be construed as having somehow subverted Irish law or undermined the Irish State in its efforts to deal with the problem in question.


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## Purple (5 Sep 2014)

T McGibney said:


> Have you a source for this wild accusation?



Sure, [broken link removed] from a Church website referencing the text of an RTE documentary.
Here's some background from Colm O'Gorman on what a nice honest fellow Cardinal Dario Castrillon Hoyos is and how he supported a French monk who went to prison for not reporting child abuse, commending his for supporting his fellow priest.


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## T McGibney (5 Sep 2014)

Did you read the first line of the first link you cited?





> Claims made in an RTÉ documentary, suggesting that a letter sent by Rome to the Irish bishops in 1997 instructed them not to report priests accused of abuse to the civil authorities, *have been rejected by the Vatican*.



I'm prepared to take at face value Colm O'Gorman's hatchet job on Castrillon Hoyos, but in the context of justifying your earlier, erroneous, account of the Sligo meeting, the term _ad hominem_ comes to mind.


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## Duke of Marmalade (5 Sep 2014)

T McGibney said:


> That's hardly the case (otherwise, why would the Vatican have left themselves open to attack by including it so prominently in their response to Eamonn Gilmore over the Cloyne Report?)


That's the whole point about weasel words, they are capable of double or multiple meanings.  Gone a bit off topic, I think.


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## T McGibney (5 Sep 2014)

My points stand. It is off topic, but it was _Purple_'s wild & unjustified accusations that brought it so.


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## Purple (5 Sep 2014)

T McGibney said:


> t it was _Purple_'s wild & unjustified accusations that brought it so.


We'll have to agree to differ on that topic. I stand by what I said and judge the evidence and the track record of those involved sufficient to support my views.

My point was made in the context that any group or ideology, be it religious or otherwise, that puts their dogma ahead of the laws of the land is subversive, is undesirable and should be treated with caution.


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## T McGibney (5 Sep 2014)

Purple said:


> My point was made in the context that any group or ideology, be it religious or otherwise, that puts their dogma ahead of the laws of the land is subversive, is undesirable and should be treated with caution.



That in itself remains a perfectly valid point, but its hardly particular to Islam, or indeed Catholicism. After all we have people in our parliament who are or were members of a secret private army which claimed to have governance rights over this island, and others who opening refuse to observe the law of the land in relation to property taxes and water charges.


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## Purple (5 Sep 2014)

T McGibney said:


> That in itself remains a perfectly valid point, but its hardly particular to Islam, or indeed Catholicism. After all we have people in our parliament who are or were members of a secret private army which claimed to have governance rights over this island, and others who opening refuse to observe the law of the land in relation to property taxes and water charges.


I agree and the IRA, along with the RC Church under Ratzinger, are good examples of subversive organisations that sought to undermine the rule of law in this country. I'm not for a moment saying that their actions were comparable in scope or scale.


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## T McGibney (5 Sep 2014)

Purple said:


> I agree and the IRA, along with the RC Church under Ratzinger, are good examples of subversive organisations that sought to undermine the rule of law in this country. I'm not for a moment saying that their actions were comparable in scope or scale.



Let's get back to Islam, as this RC bashing is going nowhere, and doesn't belong in this thread in the first instance.


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## cremeegg (5 Sep 2014)

The question for me is what is the outlook of the ordinary Muslim in Ireland. 

I assume that they have an outlook broadly compatible with broader Irish society. That the are as horrified by IsIs as I am. 

When I came across this article in the IT by Ali Selim I was taken aback. Are his anti women views reflective of Muslims in Ireland generally, because I think his views must be opposed. 

Recognition of the equal rights and responsibilities of women in public life is the major achievements of the 20th century and we should not allow it to be undermined in Ireland for anyone. Including the children of Muslim immigrants


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## Purple (5 Sep 2014)

cremeegg said:


> The question for me is what is the outlook of the ordinary Muslim in Ireland.
> 
> I assume that they have an outlook broadly compatible with broader Irish society. That the are as horrified by IsIs as I am.
> 
> ...


I agree completely.
The problem with these discussions is that they identify the wrong issue. The problem is fundamentalism. It doesn't matter what its manifestation is; fundamentalist Islam, Christianity, National Socialism, Communism etc. they are all just different facets of the same thing. They seek to impose an ideology on everyone, an ideology that is incompatible with democracy and the values of a modern society.


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## Purple (5 Sep 2014)

T McGibney said:


> Did you read the first line of the first link you cited?


Did you read it?
The comments of Bishop Michael Smith of Meath are frank and quite courageous. Sorry for the long quote but it's very pertinent; 


> Bishop Michael Smith of Meath confirmed in the programme that one Irish archbishop, whom the programme could not name for legal reasons, threatened to resign when a church tribunal’s recommendation that an abusive priest be removed from ministry was overturned by the Vatican on appeal.
> 
> The Irish bishops ad limina meeting with the Prefect of the Congregation for Clergy, Cardinal Castrillón Hoyos in 1999 is reported to have ended in “uproar” as Castrillón Hoyos told the Irish bishops to be “fathers to your priests, not policemen.”
> 
> ...


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## delgirl (5 Sep 2014)

Jeez lads, mention Christianity again and the Catholic Church in this 'Islam in Ireland' thread and I'll have to get out my Mutawa sticks and beat the living daylights out of ye.


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## Leper (5 Sep 2014)

. . . . and get your marching band to play rebel songs while you're at it . . . Enough on the subject of Muslims in Ireland, I think.


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## johnwilliams (5 Sep 2014)

does Sunni and Shia both have the same views on this


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## cremeegg (5 Sep 2014)

johnwilliams said:


> does Sunni and Shia both have the same views on this



Good question. I think that Ali Selim is Sunni, I have no idea if Shia have a similar outlook.


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## delgirl (6 Sep 2014)

Purple said:


> The problem is fundamentalism. It doesn't matter what its manifestation is; fundamentalist Islam, Christianity, National Socialism, Communism etc. they are all just different facets of the same thing. They seek to impose an ideology on everyone, an ideology that is incompatible with democracy and the values of a modern society.


Agree 100%.  The word _impose _is key.

With Islam, the incompatibility is more stark as it is not just a belief but a way of life where their religion impacts on everything they do from how they dress to what they eat and who they mix with.  

IMHO this makes it very difficult for them to integrate into a Western / mainly Christian society where, for example, girls are being sent to Western-style schools wearing clothing (purportedly mandated by their religion) which does not conform to the school's uniform policy.  They also do not wish to partake in PE if there are communal changing areas, 'immodest clothing' being worn, male PE teachers, etc. etc.

Calling for Irish schools to change their policies on uniforms, gender segregation, PE rules, to be excused during lessons to pray etc. etc. to accommodate the beliefs of a few is definitely not the way to go.

Children of most other faiths can leave their beliefs behind when they go to school allowing them to integrate easily with their peers.  My son went to a multi-denominational secondary school and had friends from all sorts of religious backgrounds and they all got along really well.



cremeegg said:


> Good question. I think that Ali Selim is Sunni, I have no idea if Shia have a similar outlook.


Despite the Quran's call for unity, there are many different branches and divisions of Islam, some moderate and some very extreme.

It's always the extremists who get the headlines, but the moderates need to speak up against the extremist actions and views.


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## cremeegg (10 Sep 2014)

It would appear that Ali Selim does not speak for all Muslims in Ireland.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/soci...organisations-praise-schools-system-1.1922818

This gives a very different Muslim perspective on Muslims in Irish schools.


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## Delboy (10 Sep 2014)

I know that this is a serious topic but I had to smile to myself on reading an Opinion piece in today's IT and the sub heading on it
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/soci...o-take-a-full-part-in-irish-society-1.1923145


> A young Muslim lesbian has the same right as a young Catholic lesbian to be informed in sex education that lesbianism exists


it's the stuff that dreams are made of at the right-on IT!!!


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## Purple (10 Sep 2014)

Delboy said:


> I know that this is a serious topic but I had to smile to myself on reading an Opinion piece in today's IT and the sub heading on it
> http://www.irishtimes.com/news/soci...o-take-a-full-part-in-irish-society-1.1923145
> 
> it's the stuff that dreams are made of at the right-on IT!!!



While I agree completely with the piece you are bang on with your comment


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## pAnTs (14 Sep 2014)

I'd like to ask Dr Selim if the two Muslim National Schools will be spearheading the way in this new spirit of inclusivity? I take it they are preparing to make allowances for non-Muslim children and atheists?? For instance I would like my children ie boys and girls to mix for PE etc how will the Muslim National Schools be accommodating this? I would also like any religious iconography removed (similar to the way he wants the crests removed from Irish uniforms)


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