# Junior /Leaving Cert Marking - 10% extra throught the medium of Irish



## HighFlier (17 Sep 2007)

Not sure is this an appropriate forum but here goes.

In a conversation over the weekend someone told me that extra marks are awarded to students taking state exams through the medium of Irish. ie 10% is added to their score. I was flabbergasted to hear this . If true it surely gives an unfair advantage to students from the Gaelscoils. Does anybody have any info. on this practice as its not the first time i've heard this.


----------



## gianni (17 Sep 2007)

*Re: Junior /Leaving certificate Marking*

I think the rule that applies is that you get 10% of the marks that you didn't achieve.

e.g. if you got 80% you missed out on 20% so you get 10% of this which would bring your score up to 82%.

I think it's very fair and a good way to encourage the growth of the language.


----------



## miselemeas (17 Sep 2007)

*Re: Junior /Leaving certificate Marking*

"To encourage students in a bygone age to study Irish, a bonus system was introduced, where students doing their Leaving Cert through Irish gain a percentage bonus which is added on to their overall result in the particular subject.

 Students doing the examination gain a bonus of from three per cent to ten per cent depending on subject.


All subjects get a bonus except Irish, English, Technical Drawing, and Art (other than History and Appreciation of Art).


Take the example of a student studying Honours History who earns 60 per cent which is a C grade. The bonus will increase the marks to 66 per cent, a C+ grade, or a gain of five points in CAO system.


If another student gets 69 per cent C+, the bonus will increase the marks to 75.9 per cent, a B+ grade, or a gain of ten points in CAO system. 
Above 75 per cent the bonus decreases linearly, so a student getting a 79 per cent B in History gains only eight per cent of 79 per cent, or 6.3 per cent approximately, resulting in 85 per cent A. That's a gain of ten percentage points.


In fact any student studying a subject which is entitled to a ten per cent bonus will gain at least five points if their marks are between 41 per cent and 90 per cent approximately. 
One must remember that most subjects are marked out of 300 marks to 600 marks, so a percentage may be as much as six marks. 
Most students take at least seven subjects, which include English and Irish and Maths.


With the right choice of subjects a good average student gains at least 20 points and possibly five points from Maths (bonus five per cent) depending on their score.


Around four per cent of students doing Leaving Certificate are examined through Irish."



Source
[broken link removed]


----------



## ajapale (17 Sep 2007)

*Re: Junior /Leaving certificate Marking*

Moved from  Work, Careers, Un/employment, Further Education/Training 
to Miscellaneous Non-financial Questions


----------



## redstar (17 Sep 2007)

*Re: Junior /Leaving certificate Marking*



gianni said:


> I think it's very fair and a good way to encourage the growth of the language.



It might also be useful if bonus pts could be given for those who take Science subjects for the LCert  to encourage students to pursue science/technology at third-level, given the forecasts about future shortages in these areas and its importance to the Irish economy.


----------



## HighFlier (17 Sep 2007)

*Re: Junior /Leaving certificate Marking*



> I think it's very fair and a good way to encourage the growth of the language.



I completely disagree. My children were educated in their younger years outside Ireland and to even approach the Irish Subject Exam papers is a daunting task. Even if they wanted to do their exam through the medium of Irish they could not do so. Also this would apply to the increasing number of immigrant students who are not studying Irish at all. (They are exempt if they joined the educational system after a certain age).

The children attending gaelscoils (many of which are fee paying) have an inherent advantage in the points race not related to ability.

The word unconstitutional springs to mind. Foster all the citizens equally and all that bumph. I wonder if it has ever been challenged legally?


----------



## dontaskme (17 Sep 2007)

*Re: Junior /Leaving certificate Marking*



HighFlier said:


> I completely disagree. My children were educated in their younger years outside Ireland and to even approach the Irish Subject Exam papers is a daunting task. Even if they wanted to do their exam through the medium of Irish they could not do so. Also this would apply to the increasing number of immigrant students who are not studying Irish at all. (They are exempt if they joined the educational system after a certain age).
> 
> The children attending gaelscoils (many of which are fee paying) have an inherent advantage in the points race not related to ability.
> 
> The word unconstitutional springs to mind. Foster all the citizens equally and all that bumph. I wonder if it has ever been challenged legally?


 
Well, those who are good at Irish would score higher in the Irish exam anyway and get higher points that way.

I don't see any harm in it. It's not a very commonplace thing and the bonus marks could be seen as compensation for the fact that there are very few Irish language materials, textbooks etc. for science subjects, history, geography etc.


----------



## truthseeker (18 Sep 2007)

*Re: Junior /Leaving certificate Marking*



gianni said:


> I think it's very fair and a good way to encourage the growth of the language.


 
I disagree, I think it is inherently unfair. People have a range of differing natural abilities, someone may be better at maths or music or art, yet these people are not offered an extra advantage over someone who happens to be good at Irish. 

Plus where you are born makes a difference - if you were born in a Gaeltacht area you have an automatic advantage.

And most importantly - does this system mean that some people are taking up places in universities that they wouldnt have otherwise have been eligible for by dint of the fact that they received extra points for taking their exams in Irish? 

It would seem to me that marking people differently according to whether or not they sat the exams in a different language is completely unfair!! Exams should be marked on how well the person does in that particular subject - thats the only way a fair marking system can work.


----------



## HighFlier (18 Sep 2007)

I have no problem with someone who is good at Irish getting high points in the Irish paper because they can score an A1 . This merely reflects their ability in the subject. However if someone gets passed over for say an engineering course in favour of someone who is inherently less qualified in the relevant subjects because of "free" additional points given to them in technical subjects because they can speak Irish then thats discrimination against the better qualified person and in my view totally unfair.


----------



## truthseeker (18 Sep 2007)

HighFlier said:


> I have no problem with someone who is good at Irish getting high points in the Irish paper because they can score an A1 . This merely reflects their ability in the subject. However if someone gets passed over for say an engineering course in favour of someone who is inherently less qualified in the relevant subjects because of "free" additional points given to them in technical subjects because they can speak Irish then thats discrimination against the better qualified person and in my view totally unfair.


 

I totally agree. The battle for points is stressful enough without some people being given unfair advantages over others.


----------



## U2Fan (18 Sep 2007)

I also think it's a fair and encouraging reward (to the very small minority) who undertake examinations as Gaeilge.


----------



## jrewing (18 Sep 2007)

I agree with U2Fan. Let's temper the outrage - we are probably looking at 2-3% of people sitting the state exams.

I have no problem with this small token of reverse bias in order to encourage Irish in schools.


----------



## truthseeker (18 Sep 2007)

U2Fan said:


> I also think it's a fair and encouraging reward (to the very small minority) who undertake examinations as Gaeilge.


 
Perhaps Im missing something here - but I do not see why someone should be 'rewarded' for taking an examination as Gaeilge?


----------



## Oilean Beag (18 Sep 2007)

*Article 8*
1.    The Irish language as the national language is the first official language.


2.    The English language is recognised as a second official language.


3.    Provision may, however, be made by law for the exclusive use of either of the said languages for any one or more official purposes, either throughout the State or in any part thereof.


From our Constitution.


----------



## gianni (18 Sep 2007)

*Re: Junior /Leaving certificate Marking*



HighFlier said:


> I completely disagree. My children were educated in their younger years outside Ireland and to even approach the Irish Subject Exam papers is a daunting task.


 

Perhaps some children have benefitted from learning another language during their formative education years in other countries ? If this was the case would you say that they had an unfair advantage over others if they were to take this language as a Leaving Cert subject ?


----------



## RonanC (18 Sep 2007)

@ Highflyer, 

have you any experience of students attending Irish speaking schools at all?

From my 14 years of experience of all-irish primary and secondary school, the extra 10% given (10% of mark you didnt get) was well deserved and earned!

We had to speak irish all the time, if caught speaking english would mean an automatic 1 day suspension. The only time we were allowed to speak english during the day was in English class.  Thats the rules and we had to live by them i know. 

But thats only the half of it. Imagine having to translate books or exam papers from English to Irish to German/french to Irish again to answer a question. Imagine sitting a biology exam and being hit with a word in english that your not 100% sure on, yeah you know what it is in Irish but not exactly sure on the english version. Not easy I can tell you. Thats what we had to do on a daily basis as most books were only available in english, no irish version! And the same at exam time.


----------



## DrMoriarty (18 Sep 2007)

jrewing said:


> I have no problem with this small token of reverse bias in order to encourage Irish in schools.


Nor I. Fair or not, at least Leaving Cert students awarded bonus marks for answering the exams through Irish are actually doing something to 'earn' their advantage.

What about the allocation of 'reserved' places _with lower entry points requirements _on certain courses (e.g. primary teacher training) for candidates who reside in a designated _Gaeltacht _area. Whether _or not _they sit their exams through Irish?

_/ducks and runs away..._


----------



## Haille (18 Sep 2007)

Agree with Dr. Moriarty. The lower entry point to primary teaching for Gaeltacht applicants who may end teaching in non all Irish schools. Gaeltacht applicants are not required to take Gaeilge as one of their main subjects for their B.Ed. degree.


----------



## SarahMc (18 Sep 2007)

> The children attending gaelscoils (many of which are fee paying)


 
I am not aware of any fee paying gaelscoils.  Perhaps there are some, but MOST gaelscoils and gaelcolaistes are not feepaying.


----------



## truthseeker (18 Sep 2007)

*Re: Junior /Leaving certificate Marking*



gianni said:


> Perhaps some children have benefitted from learning another language during their formative education years in other countries ? If this was the case would you say that they had an unfair advantage over others if they were to take this language as a Leaving Cert subject ?


 
But only in that particular subject - not an advantage in every subject.


----------



## Jock04 (18 Sep 2007)

Do I see any benefit in rewarding the efforts of a pupil to complete examinations in the official language of the state, despite this language being ridiculed, dismissed & even despised by many, whose only unit of measurement appears to be "will it make me a profit?". 

Yes.

International business is generally done in English. This doesn't stop German schools teaching German, French schools teaching French, etc etc.
These countries are well able to function as international players and European partners without trying to hide or forget their individuality. Ireland is well able to do the same. Efforts in this regard should be applauded & encouraged, in my view.


----------



## HighFlier (18 Sep 2007)

As has been pointed out there are two official languages in this state. I am not anti the Irish language but the argument that it's harder to learn in Irish dosen't wash with me. It's a free choice. The Nigerian child who comes to Ireland faces at least the same difficulty in learning because they are not learning through their native language.

To me the issue is simple. Two students sit the same exam and the one with an A1 can potentially have actually scored less than another with an A2. As an employer I'd sure like to know that the A1 student is only A1 in say Applied Mathemetics because of an ability to communicate through Irish.

It would be more transparent to set college points levels openly at different settings for the two situations. i.e. Say engineering UCD for English speakers 450 points for Irish 425. It's still discrimination but at least everyone would see it for what it is and my guess is there would be uproar.


----------



## RonanC (18 Sep 2007)

HighFlier said:


> As has been pointed out there are two official languages in this state. I am not anti the Irish language but the argument that it's harder to learn in Irish dosen't wash with me. It's a free choice. The Nigerian child who comes to Ireland faces at least the same difficulty in learning because they are not learning through their native language.
> 
> To me the issue is simple. Two students sit the same exam and the one with an A1 can potentially have actually scored less than another with an A2. As an employer I'd sure like to know that the A1 student is only A1 in say Applied Mathemetics because of an ability to communicate through Irish.
> 
> It would be more transparent to set college points levels openly at different settings for the two situations. i.e. Say engineering UCD for English speakers 450 points for Irish 425. It's still discrimination but at least everyone would see it for what it is and my guess is there would be uproar.


 
Exam papers are not marked by computers, they are marked by individuals who can award different marks to similar answers. I could have the same answer as you but another exam marker will give me one or two more marks than you. This could lead to you getting an A2 and me an A1. Is that fair? No. And I'll revert back to my other reply again, I didnt have a choice as to what shcool I went to, I could give out about it but at the end of the day it was my parents who decided what was best for me and as it turned out Irish school was best.


----------



## HighFlier (18 Sep 2007)

I think you are missing the point. For sure examiners differ but there is no deliberate discrimination and there is an appeals process. In this case a direct decision is made to inflate the marks given in a particular subject simply because of a competency in another subject. It undermines the validity of the whole evaluation. Yes a student can get more marks in Maths by doing it through Irish but it dosen't make him any better at maths.

Students who say go to college abroad with these grades are not as good as their grades suggest and IMO this undermines the reputation of the Irish grading system abroad. I would say it is not well known even in educational circles overseas that this hidden bonus exists. 

Don't forget we are the great little country who in the '80s gave all learner drivers a full driving licence with no test to clear a backlog and these self same licences are still used to hire cars all around the world. 
Ok...Ok not quite a good analogy but a grading system in a subject should be just that ....it should grade the student in their knowledge of the subject and if the state wants to promote Irish by giving preferential treatment in access to further education and the jobs market then be open about it and give a points "voucher" or something rather than hiding it in the subject gradings. My opinion is if such a system was introduced it would be discounted pretty quickly by the marketplace.


----------



## Gordanus (18 Sep 2007)

HighFlier said:


> My opinion is if such a system was introduced it would be discounted pretty quickly by the marketplace.



!
Should the marketplace be the arbiter of education????


----------



## HighFlier (18 Sep 2007)

Maybe not, but its not education, it's misrepresentation of educational results to implement a wooly cultural policy.


----------



## DeirdreM (19 Sep 2007)

*Re: Junior /Leaving certificate Marking*



gianni said:


> I think the rule that applies is that you get 10% of the marks that you didn't achieve.
> 
> e.g. if you got 80% you missed out on 20% so you get 10% of this which would bring your score up to 82%.


----------



## HighFlier (19 Sep 2007)

No it would be 10% of 60% which would be 6% i.e. total now 46%.

BTW can anyone clarify if this formula is correct because different posters have suggested different systems.

Anyway even 1% is unfair IMO.


----------



## Oilean Beag (19 Sep 2007)

To sit an examination paper through Irish requires another level of knowledge and in my opinion that justifies the extra marks. 

Whether you are 'lucky enough' to be born in an Irish speaking area or attend a Gaelscoil, well that just life. 

The fostering of our national heritage  and maintenance of the language is an extra benefit and I would further argue that this alone, is reason enough to allocate the extra marks.


----------



## HighFlier (19 Sep 2007)

SNB said:


> To sit an examination paper through Irish requires another level of knowledge and in my opinion that justifies the extra marks. .....................
> 
> It requires another level of knowledge in *Irish *and the translation of Irish. However it demonstrates no additional level of knowledge in the subject being examined and the grade given falsely over portrays the candidates knowledge of the subject to the detriment of other candidates who may have a superior knowledge of that particular subject and can ultimately award a college place to a lesser qualified candidate for no logical reason.


----------



## Oilean Beag (19 Sep 2007)

University places are awarded on the basis of points in total and as such a are not guided by a particularly high level of knowledge in one subject area.  The amount of points awarded reflects the amount of work put in by an individual candidate across all exams.

I think that if you sit through Irish, the extra effort is/ is not reflected in your total points score. 

Some courses have basic matriculation requirements for specific subjects, and if a candidate does not meet these, they dont meet them, regardless of what an Irish speaking candidate scored. 

Finally, very few jobs look in detail to the score in a particular subject in the Leaving as a basis to compare candidates. And if they do, the relative effects that may be gained by irish speaking candidates in LC, would be minimal.


----------



## truthseeker (19 Sep 2007)

SNB said:


> University places are awarded on the basis of points in total and as such a are not guided by a particularly high level of knowledge in one subject area. The amount of points awarded reflects the amount of work put in by an individual candidate across all exams.


 
surely points in total are affected if you are getting extra marks for each exam you sit through Irish?


----------



## SarahMc (19 Sep 2007)

As an Irish citizen, or a person resident in Ireland, you have a constitutional right to have all your business dealings conducted in Irish, be it in school, in a court room, dealings with officials etc.  (see SNB's post). My understanding is the extra marks came about as there was a shortage of Irish speakers to fulfil this constitutional obligation (and still is).

Unless posters are arguing for a referendum to remove Irish as our first official language (yeah that'll pass!) , I can't see the unfairness in the points advantage.


----------



## DrMoriarty (20 Sep 2007)

As someone else has explained, the bonus points are maximised at lower grades and have little or no effect on a student attaining high marks to begin with. The system favours weaker _Gaeilgeoir* _students over stronger ones. Whether that's unfair, or another form of culturally valid 'positive discrimination', is open to debate.

The _Gaeltacht _advantage seems to me to be a hamfisted attempt at social engineering.

_* Well, Gaeilgeoir for a day..._


----------



## casiopea (20 Sep 2007)

*Re: Junior /Leaving certificate Marking*



HighFlier said:


> I completely disagree. My children were educated in their younger years outside Ireland and to even approach the Irish Subject Exam papers is a daunting task. Even if they wanted to do their exam through the medium of Irish they could not do so. Also this would apply to the increasing number of immigrant students who are not studying Irish at all. (They are exempt if they joined the educational system after a certain age).
> 
> The children attending gaelscoils (many of which are fee paying) have an inherent advantage in the points race not related to ability.
> 
> The word unconstitutional springs to mind. Foster all the citizens equally and all that bumph. I wonder if it has ever been challenged legally?



Hi HighFlier,

I actually was taught in all Irish, junior school and secondary school.  So I did my intercert (as it was known then) in Irish.  I was very fluent in Irish and very competent as an Irish speaker (only natural as I was immersed in the environment from the age of 3).  However learning leaving cert level courses in Irish were unbelievably challenging.  Especially physics, biology and history.  Adherence to the language (to avail of the 10%) is mandatory, by that I mean you cant write a hybrid Irish/English - Irish text and English scientific terms.  The irish/english biology dictionary I used was only written up to G (!!!). All terms had to be translated - which was done in class by the teacher but made the learning curve even more difficult.  Highflier - it was unbelievably challenging.  So much so that midway through 5th year I continued to learn in irish but opted to sit papers in english (a choice we were given).

As someone who tried it, who is fluent in Irish, I really feel that extra percentage is deserved.  Being fluent isn't enough so those of us from the Gaelscoileanna don't have an extra advantage.  There is an extra learning curve on many topics that has to be overcome.  The extra percentage reflects that.


----------



## HighFlier (20 Sep 2007)

Again, I do not dispute the difficulty of doing the exam through Irish. From your description it seems to be a nightmare so why have the system at all.
 If it was abolished the only people who would do the exam through Irish would be native Irish speakers or people with a passion for the language. I would fully defend and support their right to do this and I also support the notion of being allwed to do official government interactions through Irish. I am not anti the Irish language but the extra % in state exams is a hamfisted way to promote it and gives false grades .


----------



## casiopea (20 Sep 2007)

HighFlier said:


> Again, I do not dispute the difficulty of doing the exam through Irish. From your description it seems to be a nightmare so why have the system at all.
> If it was abolished the only people who would do the exam through Irish would be native Irish speakers or people with a passion for the language. I would fully defend and support their right to do this and I also support the notion of being allwed to do official government interactions through Irish. I am not anti the Irish language but the extra % in state exams is a hamfisted way to promote it and gives false grades .



The extra % is really only gained if you do badly - which might be because you did it through Irish in the first place.  

I really cant emphasize how tough it is, and how hard it is to get some resources (certain books etc) - so even people from the gaelteachts (who may have an irish advantage over someone like me) have it tough.  

So why do it in Irish at all?  Because its my teanga mháthartha.  Now as a foreigner in another country, where mother tongues are important (Switzerland has 4 of them!), I appreciate even more the opportunity I was given. 

I think the 10% is a fair compensation for the lack, or challenges, in the system that english students take for granted, dont experience, dont have to face.

I can see your argument and I understand your frustration - but I feel you need to have experienced it (studying and sitting formal exams in irish) firsthand to understand why its deserved.


----------



## homebird (20 Sep 2007)

I think the students deserve the extra few marks. It is torture learning all that vocabulary. You may know terms in business studies for example from life experience. Then you have to go and learn them in Irish. PRSI becomes APBC – what nonsense having to translate all that stuff. 

I know someone who went to an all Irish school and went on to study maths in college and had to learn all the terms in English – “Square root” was one of those terms. He had never learned the English for it.


----------



## 3dolls (26 Sep 2007)

I find all the posts about how difficult it is to do the exams as gaeilge fascinating! So you spend 5 years learning all sorts of scientific terms etc in irish......what happens when you get your Applied Physics place in third level? Won't you then have to relearn all the terms in english? Or at least mentally translate stuff into irish? I just don't see the point!! A nursing tutor friend of my dad told him that the students that struggled most were the ones who had gone to gaelscoileanna. Personally I only see the point if you're planning to do a third-level course in irish.


----------



## rabbit (27 Sep 2007)

3dolls said:


> I find all the posts about how difficult it is to do the exams as gaeilge fascinating! So you spend 5 years learning all sorts of scientific terms etc in irish......what happens when you get your Applied Physics place in third level? Won't you then have to relearn all the terms in english? Or at least mentally translate stuff into irish? I just don't see the point!! A nursing tutor friend of my dad told him that the students that struggled most were the ones who had gone to gaelscoileanna. Personally I only see the point if you're planning to do a third-level course in irish.


 
Not only that, but Irish is a dead language. I never heard any conversations in it since I left school many years ago, and I have visited all 32 counties. I must have visited hundreds if not thousands of newsagents over the years in different towns, airports, petrol stations etc, and never saw anyone buying Irish language newspapers or magazines. Its unfair that so many billions of our money - taxpayers money - is pumped in to ramming Irish down kids throats in schools, and spent of printing govt. things in Irish etc No wonder we as a country are so bad at continental languages. For example, ask any bewildered German or French elderly tourist in Ireland has any Irish person ever communicated /spoken to them. Never mind listening to the average Irish person when in France or Germany.


----------



## casiopea (27 Sep 2007)

3dolls said:


> I find all the posts about how difficult it is to do the exams as gaeilge fascinating! So you spend 5 years learning all sorts of scientific terms etc in irish......what happens when you get your Applied Physics place in third level? Won't you then have to relearn all the terms in english? Or at least mentally translate stuff into irish?



It really depended on the person and on your abilities,  if you thought in irish you may have translated in english and vice versa.  I know for example, I learnt all scientific terms in irish and english.  Not all exam papers and books were in irish so it was necessary to have an understanding/recognition in both languages, so when I went to university I wasnt really searching for english words.  Its definitely true that some people in gaelscoileanna struggled but I think some people in english schools struggled too and you always had the option to do what I did - which was to actually sit the exam in english.



> Not only that, but Irish is a dead language. I never heard any conversations in it since I left school many years ago, and I have visited all 32 counties. I must have visited hundreds if not thousands of newsagents over the years in different towns, airports, petrol stations etc, and never saw anyone buying Irish language newspapers or magazines. Its unfair that so many billions of our money - taxpayers money - is pumped in to ramming Irish down kids throats in schools, and spent of printing govt. things in Irish etc No wonder we as a country are so bad at continental languages. For example, ask any bewildered German or French elderly tourist in Ireland has any Irish person ever communicated /spoken to them. Never mind listening to the average Irish person when in France or Germany.



Irish-is-a-dead-language is a whole other debate (and has been debated here many times).  I am not too sure what you mean though by your last 2 statements,  are you saying that Irish people dont talk to the French and Germans at all when they are Ireland? Or we just dont speak to them in Irish?  In fairness the former is rubbish and I wouldnt do the latter as they dont understand Irish?  Im not really too sure what your point is?  Last week a swiss-german man asked me to speak to him in Irish and I did, but I would only do so if I asked to.  My husband, who is swiss, often points out irish words on signs, menus, doors, tv asking me what they mean when he is in Dublin.  

I also dont understand: _"Never mind listening to the average Irish person when in France or Germany."_  What is your point here? We should speak irish to the french and germans when in their country?  Surely we should speak their language or at the very least english which they might understand?  Are you saying that we should learn more foreign languages and therefore in France and Germany speak French and German respectively?  It is ironically the irish that was "rammed down your throat" that would help you there.

Since leaving school I have learnt Italian and German to reasonably fluent levels.  I was also taught French in school.  Eventhough I now speak 5 languages, I dont consider myself a natural linguist but I do think that having learnt Irish and English means that I have a very clear understanding of the structure of languages and can learn some constructs very quickly.  There are many aspects of the German language for example that are easier to learn for an Irish speaker than an English speaker (common grammar that simply doesn't exist English).

I really feel a good understanding of either Latin or Irish (both perceived "dead languages") is not only beneficial from a historical perspective but also beneficial from a learning (a foreign language) perspective.


----------



## dtlyn (27 Sep 2007)

*Re: Junior /Leaving certificate Marking*



gianni said:


> I think the rule that applies is that you get 10% of the marks that you didn't achieve.
> 
> e.g. if you got 80% you missed out on 20% so you get 10% of this which would bring your score up to 82%.
> 
> I think it's very fair and a good way to encourage the growth of the language.


 
The difference between an A2 and A1 is 10 points. If you conduct your exams through irish and get say 89% you'll get an extra 1% through Irish. 

If Sean Gaeolscoil gets 89% is Biology, Chemistry, Geography ( can you do Irish- maths? ) he gets 3 A1s

If Johnny CBS Cabra gets 89% in the same three subjects he gets A2s

So he gets 30 points less. 

Johnny CBS Cabra, spent his time exchanges learning German, had no facility to speak Irish on a regular basis in his school, lives in a North Dublin former-council area with no option but the local CBS, wasn't encouraged to, or even aware of the facility to do certain subjects through Irish.

Now throw Johnny Polish and Johnny Indian into the equation and you'll see what an actual, unfair joke this is. 

This isn't encouraging growth of the Irish language. Forcing it down peoples throats through Peig Seyers and mark incentives does more to damage the language than promote it amongst young people.  TG4's weather girls encourage growth of the Irish Language. Radio na Gaeltachta playing deep house music on a tuesday night with a DJ speaking Irish does the same. 

This extra marking is a blatant leg up from the GAA clan who run the education system to their own.


----------



## casiopea (27 Sep 2007)

*Re: Junior /Leaving certificate Marking*



dtlyn said:


> The difference between an A2 and A1 is 10 points. If you conduct your exams through irish and get say 89% you'll get an extra 1% through Irish.
> 
> If Sean Gaeolscoil gets 89% is Biology, Chemistry, Geography ( can you do Irish- maths? ) he gets 3 A1s
> 
> ...





I definitely agree with your analogy regarding John Cabra and Sean Gaelscoil.  The choice is actually for John's parents and Sean's parents not John and Sean themselves.  By the time John gets to 14 and decides he might like to do his exams through irish the switch may be too daunting.  My parents, not me I was 4, chose a gaelscoil (we have no affailation with GAA clan or society).

Throwing Johnny Indian and Johnny Polish into the equation doesnt apply.  They dont have to sit Irish at all - yes they dont get this 1% but if their future generations remain in Ireland they will.  There are many things I cant avail of here in Switzerland as an immigrant but my children would if they grow up here.

The solution to the above problem described by yourself is to make irish schools and facilities more available to the likes of Johnny Cabra.

That costs money. Then you'll have the irish-is-dead-you-shouldnt-be-throwing-money-at-this brigade up in a storm.

Irish is no more "rammed down your throat" than German was down Johnny Cabra's throat.  Also "dead languages" are taught in many many countries, from welsh, to latin, to Romansch.


----------



## HighFlier (27 Sep 2007)

Dead languages may well be taught in other countries but I dont think that grades are falsified there because of proficency in these languages.

BTW I did Latin for five years in school and have found it immensely useful in many ways from spelling, to understanding unusual English words to even gardening names of plants and medical terms.

I also studied Irish for the same period and have never, ever come across a situation in which it has been of the slightest help to me.

I agree also with a previous poster that one of the reasons the Irish are so bad at speaking European languages is the language "overload" that ensues by devoting so much time to having Irish rammed down their throats.


----------



## casiopea (27 Sep 2007)

HighFlier said:


> Dead languages may well be taught in other countries but I dont think that grades are falsified there because of proficency in these languages.



Neither is Irish in a english speaking school.  Dead languages are taught in same manner in other countries as Irish is taught here.  The other scenario of the compensation for sitting exams in irish has been thoroughly discussed here, I am happy to agree to disagree  if you feel its a falsified grade.



HighFlier said:


> BTW I did Latin for five years in school and have found it immensely useful in many ways from spelling, to understanding unusual English words to even gardening names of plants and medical terms.
> 
> I also studied Irish for the same period and have never, ever come across a situation in which it has been of the slightest help to me.



There are many many overlaps between Irish and German grammar.  When learning german I often refer to Irish for understanding and not english (where there is zero similiarity) and bizarrely there are many references in italian which are the same in irish (mainly due to the fact that both Latin and Irish were very heavily influenced by the church).

While I am happy to agree that peig sawyers is a difficult piece of text which in (english) schools can be taught badly, Irish is not rammed down peoples throat.  Its simply another subject on the syllabus that at 18 you can you chose to simply never speak or use again.  Just like German, French, Physics, History or whatever subject got your goat.  I really feel irish people should get over it - no offence intended to anyone on the forum.


----------



## gianni (27 Sep 2007)

*Re: Junior /Leaving certificate Marking*



dtlyn said:


> Forcing it down peoples throats through Peig Seyers and mark incentives does more to damage the language than promote it amongst young people...


 
Peig has been off the compulsory syllabus for almost 15 years... let it go!!


----------



## dtlyn (27 Sep 2007)

*Re: Junior /Leaving certificate Marking*



gianni said:


> Peig has been off the compulsory syllabus for almost 15 years... let it go!!


 
Don't be pedantic, you know what I'm talking about. 




> My parents, not me I was 4, chose a gaelscoil (we have no affailation with GAA clan or society).


 
The education system that awards an extra x% for doing Chemistry in Irish ( required by all the Americal Multinational Pharama companies? ) does. 



> Throwing Johnny Indian and Johnny Polish into the equation doesnt apply.


 
Yes it does, of course! They don't have to sit Irish at all but they are put into a system whereby they are immediately disadvantaged in relation to gaeolscoil sitters, by this extra marks awared for sitting in an exam in a language that they've less chance than Johnny Cabra of studied to any considerable extent. 



> yes they dont get this 1%
> but if their future generations remain in Ireland they will.


 
Thats rubbish. If a Polish family have to resort to sending their 4 year old to a Gaelscoil to compete on a level plane on the CEO there's something wrong. Either way, what are the chances of this happening? Are there Gaeilscoils in Ongar or Lexlip? Or evens schools there with sufficent capacity to get the basics right?



> The solution to the above problem described by yourself is to make irish schools and facilities more available to the likes of Johnny Cabra.
> That costs money. Then you'll have the irish-is-dead-you-shouldnt-be-throwing-money-at-this brigade up in a storm.


 
That is absolutely not the solution. In a country with the least Education Monetary Investment in europe and a global economy with demand for high class graduates with global skillsets, the money is better spent on schools for Ongar, increased capacity for the likes of Mochtas in Carpenterstown and getting taught the basics correctly ( Maths?)



> Irish is no more "rammed down your throat" than German was down Johnny Cabra's throat.


 
Yes it was, it was horrible. German was taught in a much more interesting and immediately receptive way. Newspaper articles, sports quizzes, directions, telling people about yourself. 

Goethe was nowhere to be seen, I can assure you.


----------



## dtlyn (27 Sep 2007)

SNB said:


> Whether you are 'lucky enough' to be born in an Irish speaking area or attend a Gaelscoil, well that just life.


 
That's such a stupid, stupid comment.


----------



## casiopea (27 Sep 2007)

*Re: Junior /Leaving certificate Marking*



dtlyn said:


> The education system that awards an extra x% for doing Chemistry in Irish ( required by all the Americal Multinational Pharama companies? ) does.



Im not really too sure why you are posting this to my comment.  I didnt say it didnt? My point was its the parents choice as oppose to the childs choice (the johnny cabra and sean gaeilge used in the analogy). 




dtlyn said:


> Thats rubbish. If a Polish family have to resort to sending their 4 year old to a Gaelscoil to compete on a level plane on the CEO there's something wrong. Either way, what are the chances of this happening? Are there Gaeilscoils in Ongar or Lexlip? Or evens schools there with sufficent capacity to get the basics right?



Its not rubbish, I am an immigrant myself.  There are things I cant avail of here that my children will.  Its a fact of life being  foreigner. There is nothing stopping future (and current) generations of foreigners and Irish people availing of the many opportunities in Ireland - just because they didnt attend irish school doesnt mean these opportunities are not available to them.  



dtlyn said:


> That is absolutely not the solution. In a country with the least Education Monetary Investment in europe and a global economy with demand for high class graduates with global skillsets, the money is better spent on schools for Ongar, increased capacity for the likes of Mochtas in Carpenterstown and getting taught the basics correctly ( Maths?)



I too agree that money would be better spent on improving the quality of current schools in those areas and getting taught the basics correctly.  I was trying to answer the question as to how johnny cabra (used in the analogy) could attend irish school.  More irish schools would have to open up in these areas and it would have to be affordable to Johnny cabra's parents - this would cost money.  Would I prefer money to be spent on opening a scoil-lan-gaeileach in Cabra or spent on improving basic subjects? I would prefer the latter. 



dtlyn said:


> Yes it was, it was horrible. German was taught in a much more interesting and immediately receptive way. Newspaper articles, sports quizzes, directions, telling people about yourself.
> 
> Goethe was nowhere to be seen, I can assure you.



I am sorry you had such a horrible time with it, it sounds like your teacher let you down.  It doesnt mean irish is rammed down our throats though.


----------



## Rovers1901 (27 Sep 2007)

Some people just have a thing about Irish and are against any attempt to encourage/promote or reward its use.

There are Gaelscoileanna in areas such as Leixlip (I presume you picked this as you see it as some sort of immigrant hotspot??), if fact there's a very good one there. They're national schools , open to all , irrespective of background. 

The syllabus in Irish in primary schools has been completely overhauled as has the second level syllabus. The old system is widely recognised as having had problems. Look to Wales where they acknowledge that Welsh language education has been of vital importance in the growth of the language there. Spending money on Irish is not a waste of time, anything that encourages or promotes bilingualism should be applauded. Gaining a second language facilitates language learning in later life.
The focus in National Schools should be on developing skills in English/Irish and Maths. 

Just beacuse some people don't like Irish (i hated Maths, don't think it should be dropped, even though a lot of it was a waste of time) doesn't mean we should drop it. It's our national language and a living lanaguage.

This thread is going off topic and over old ground.


----------



## terrysgirl33 (27 Sep 2007)

Why didn't Johnny Cabra go to gaelscoil Bharra in Cabra?


----------



## truthseeker (27 Sep 2007)

Rovers1901 said:


> Some people just have a thing about Irish and are against any attempt to encourage/promote or reward its use.
> 
> Just beacuse some people don't like Irish (i hated Maths, don't think it should be dropped, even though a lot of it was a waste of time) doesn't mean we should drop it. It's our national language and a living lanaguage.
> 
> This thread is going off topic and over old ground.


 

I think the point that the OP made is being completely missed here.

Its not about 'having a thing against Irish' - its about an unfair examination marking system.

Its not about 'some people dont like Irish' - its about one student having an unfair advantage over another due to background, parents choice of school or individual flair in a language that allows that student to pick up extra marks in subjects unrelated to the language.

The discussion here holds true no matter what the 'favoured' language is - if students were picking up extra marks for sitting examinations in French then you would be unable to use the 'some people dont like Irish' argument.


----------



## casiopea (27 Sep 2007)

truthseeker said:


> I think the point that the OP made is being completely missed here.



The OP's original point has been addressed by both sides in the first 2 pages, so it wasnt missed as such.

Its probably time for locking.


----------



## dtlyn (27 Sep 2007)

truthseeker said:


> I think the point that the OP made is being completely missed here.
> 
> Its not about 'having a thing against Irish' - its about an unfair examination marking system.
> 
> ...



I agree. 

last word to me though? 



> Why didn't Johnny Cabra go to gaelscoil Bharra in Cabra?



Possibly because it is a) a primary school located beside b) a secondary school with a not-too-great reputation.

Totally off point now, lock this thread away!


----------



## DrMoriarty (27 Sep 2007)

Moved (with a permanent redirect left in place) to _Letting Off Steam_, which is the best description for some (but not all) of the posts.


----------



## ragazza (28 Sep 2007)

I dont see why some people have such a bee in their bonnet about the extra % for sitting the exams in irish.

Anyway, it affects a tiny number of people.
 - I presume all the people who sit their exams in Irish went to a Gaelschoil. So in any given year, out of all the student sitting their Leaving Cert, how many are from a Gaelschoil?
 - Then from the Gaelschoil, how many will actually choose to sit the exams in Irish? (as Caseopia eloquently pointed out, since it is so difficult, not all Gaelschoil student sit the exams in irish).
 - Then for the people who sit the exams in irish, how many will get a borderline mark (like 89% for example) where the extra % will push them into a new grade (e.g. A2 to A1).
So it's a tiny minority of the students, who are even affected by this.

Also, I'm not clear on the marking structure, but it seems to be skewed towards weaker students getting lower marks, so the % increase reduces as the marks get higher.

For the huge effort in becoming fluent in another language, and sitting exams in that language without the support of all the text-books/dictionaries etc being available, I think the students well deserve their few extra percent.


----------



## rabbit (29 Sep 2007)

HighFlier said:


> Dead languages may well be taught in other countries but I dont think that grades are falsified there because of proficency in these languages.
> 
> I also studied Irish for the same period and have never, ever come across a situation in which it has been of the slightest help to me.
> 
> I agree also with a previous poster that one of the reasons the Irish are so bad at speaking European languages is the language "overload" that ensues by devoting so much time to having Irish rammed down their throats.


 
excellent points well put


----------



## RainyDay (29 Sep 2007)

Does the Dept Education feel the need to annotate certificates to show the extra marks given for the Irish language as it does for other cases?


----------



## Duke of Marmalade (29 Sep 2007)

HighFlier said:


> It would be more transparent to set college points levels openly at different settings for the two situations. i.e. Say engineering UCD for English speakers 450 points for Irish 425. It's still discrimination but at least everyone would see it for what it is and my guess is there would be uproar.


 
I love it! 

I really despise this discrimination thing. At the higher end (where the points race really counts) Irish earns a whopping *30%* of marks missed. This is huge for such things as medicine. UCD Med is dominated by Colaiste Begorrah entrants.

But it would be political dynamite to dismantle this discrimination. No party proposes it.

_Highflyer_ has found the solution. Give the results both with and without the advantage. Let CAO continue to use the bloated figures but let employers see through the deception and use the correct figures.

At this level of transparency it wouldn't be long before there was a popular outcry to do the honest thing.


----------



## SarahMc (29 Sep 2007)

> UCD Med is dominated by *Colaiste Begorrah* entrants.


 
Those Begorrah Micks with their shillelagh sticks, getting drunk and fighting and hauled off in paddy wagons, they should go back to where they came from to study... oh hang on...


----------



## legend99 (1 Oct 2007)

*Re: Junior /Leaving certificate Marking*

By the way, just to point out: This posting implies its not just 10% of the marks you haven't got that you add as your bonus...it seems to be higher than that...



miselemeas said:


> "To encourage students in a bygone age to study Irish, a bonus system was introduced, where students doing their Leaving Cert through Irish gain a percentage bonus which is added on to their overall result in the particular subject.
> 
> Students doing the examination gain a bonus of from three per cent to ten per cent depending on subject.
> 
> ...


----------

