# What will happen to me - will I end up in jail?



## clare (16 Aug 2005)

Hi,

I'm new to this site.  I need help/advice.  I have a loan with BOI.  I had payment protection on it.  My job contract came to an end.  I found out payment protection didn't cover someone on a contract.  I lived in Dublin and was in full time employment.  I made repayments of EUR230 per month.  All that changed 2 years ago. I became pregnant and moved to the West of Ireland where I still reside.  My child is almost two. I couldn't find work for ages.  I have been working part time for last 8 months.  I came to an arrangement with BOI that I would pay them EUR30 per month.  I have been doing this for over a year now.  My original loan was EUR10,000.  I lodged EUR5,000 recently.  My branch manager said that the loan would be restructured.  But I found out that BOI will not restructure the loan and expect me to pay the original amounts of EUR230 per month.  I have now received a letter from BOI saying that they are referring the matter to their solicitors.  I am worried sick.  I have no prospect of getting full time work and certainly not at the same rate as I was paid in Dublin.  

What can I do?  What happens when the matter is handled by solicitors?
Will I end in court or go to jail?

Please please, any advice?

Thanks


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## ClubMan (16 Aug 2005)

Have a look at the key topics at the top of this forum which include some useful tips and resources for dealing with debt. Try contacting MABS for advice and assistance. That's what they're there for.

What did you understand as the "restructuring" that was to be carried out on the loan? Was anything ever put in writing about this? Did you get any earlier warnings about the situation before you ended up getting a final notice (?) or solicitors letter (?)? How much is currently outstanding on the loan at this stage? Are you making any repayments at all? What is your current income (including social welfare benefits if applicable)? What is the minimum that you could afford to repay? Even if you make an effort to pay a nominal amount within your means and without imposing hardship on you and your family any objective observer (including the courts if it comes to that) would generally look leniently on your situation I would imagine. I very much doubt that you would end up in jail over this! As I say _MABS _should be able to assist you. Get onto them immediately. Try to channel your energies into doing something constructive about this problem and not worrying unproductively about it. That may sound trite/patronising but it's very important to bear in mind.

Good luck.


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## demoivre (16 Aug 2005)

You already made an arrrangement with the bank to pay 30 euro a month and you lodged a lump sum of 5k against the loan - why are they now changing that   ? How much do you owe  at this stage?. I know retail bankers aren't the brighest sparks ( I only ever met one intelligent retail banker ) but I can't believe that they can't see that no judge on the planet can or will force you to make repayments greater than amounts that you can afford. I'd go back to the manager in the first instance and tell him you had an agreement to pay 30 a month which you are doing and you paid a lump sum of 5k. Show him/her details of your income and the max. you can comfortably afford to repay and explain  that no judge can change your income or your circumstances  ( remember from above that bankers aren't that bright so you'll have to explain this point to him/her!) Relax a bit , you'll get it sorted.


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## Vanilla (16 Aug 2005)

Hi Clare, I 'm a solicitor with extensive experience of debt collection and the district court. Believe me when I tell you that no judge will put someone in jail for not being able to pay a debt. Judges put people in jail for debt only if either they believe the person has the means to pay, but won't or if that person fails to turn up in court so that the judge doesnt hear their side of the story.
And before they can even make an application to put someone in jail there are a number of court appearances to be made where the debtor will get the chance to explain how much they can pay. If you can afford it, get a solicitor to represent you and they will more than likely come to an arrangement with the bank as to how much you can afford to pay without a court appearance. If you cant, put down your expenditure and income in writing and show the bank what you can afford to pay and hopefully they will come to their senses.

It would be better if you could get it sorted quickly as you don't want to have to pay legal fees of both the bank and your own on top of the loan- but at least these are scale fees and relatively small.


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## ClubMan (16 Aug 2005)

Sorry - I missed the bit about the €30 p.m. revised repayment. Once again get onto _MABS _as they will help you do what _demoivre _and _Vanilla _are suggesting in terms of presenting details of your financial situation and (in)ability to pay.


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## clare (16 Aug 2005)

Hi,

Many thanks to everyone who took time out to reply to me and put my mind at ease.  I have been consistent with my repayments and after lodging the €5K, reducing my loan by half, I was puzzled as to why they want me to pay the original amounts again.  I am meeting the branch manager this week and if I don't get any satisfaction, I will contact MABS (who have helped me before).  
Incidently, when I met with a lady from MABS before, she mentioned that BOI frequently ignore/don't reply to letters MABS have sent them.

I won't let the bastards grind me down!

Thanks again.


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## RainyDay (16 Aug 2005)

clare said:
			
		

> I have a loan with BOI.  I had payment protection on it.  My job contract came to an end.  I found out payment protection didn't cover someone on a contract.


If you were on contract at the time that you took out the loan, then you should be able to make a case that BOI mis-sold you the payment protection.  They shouldn't have offered you (and charged you for) the protection that you could never claim against. This may allow you to reduce the total amount owed to BOI.


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## royrogers (16 Aug 2005)

I am surprised that it is a criminal offence to owe money and you could go jail for it - in the uk it is not a criminal office to owe money unless it is to the government or TV licenses.  Think of all the people who owes money on credit cards and mortgages surly if they become unemployed or thought illness they cannot make payments does everyone go to jail, if so then they will have to start building more prisons in Ireland.


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## dam099 (16 Aug 2005)

royrogers said:
			
		

> I am surprised that it is a criminal offence to owe money and you could go jail for it - in the uk it is not a criminal office to owe money unless it is to the government or TV licenses. Think of all the people who owes money on credit cards and mortgages surly if they become unemployed or thought illness they cannot make payments does everyone go to jail, if so then they will have to start building more prisons in Ireland.


 
I'm sure one of the solicitors here can give the exact position but I think it is not so much the owing of the money which is a criminal offence but the ignoring of court orders etc. to make payments which could land you in jail.

On the matter of going to jail in this particular instance, even if it was at all likely that a court would jail in these circumstances, which I don't believe it is, I doubt BOI would want the sort of negative publicity putting some one in jail would bring on them, especially when from the post it is clear this person has been making good faith efforts to resolve the issue.


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## ClubMan (16 Aug 2005)

Debt is not a criminal offence. I think that creditors can use civil prosecutions to recoup debts or claim breach of contract etc.


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## oysterman (16 Aug 2005)

Could I reinforce Rainyday's excellent point about the payment protection?

On the facts you've outlined, this screams out as a case of mis-selling of this notorious product.

BoI are very sensitive on this issue.

When you meet the branch manager, I would suggest that you lead the discussion with this point rather than the debt itself. Repeatedly make this point:

"I would never have dreamt of taking out this loan without adequate payment protection. You sold the protection to me. That's why I took out the loan. I want this settled now. Fully compensate me for the premiums I have paid for this worthless insurance cover and the interest you have charged me on it (because that is the really big scam they have been operating i.e. charging for the full amount of the insurance up front and rolling it into the loan to increase, surreptitiously, the size of the loan). Then I will continue to pay you €30/month until the loan is settled, provided the total amount of interest charged on the loan (over the new term) is no greater than what I would have been charged on the original terms (i.e. over the much shorter term of the loan)."

You must think of yourself as being in a strong position here.

They are in a weker position than you might think.

And get all of their calculations in writing - the ability of bankers to make elementary computational errors never ceases to amaze me.


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## royrogers (17 Aug 2005)

You tell the bank manager what you can afford to pay not what they think you should pay.  You have a baby therefore you could end up paying just 5euro per week if that is all you can afford and they should accept that.  Do they charge for sending out letters and keep adding interest to the loan they do then you should ask them to stop adding interest and also to stop sending you out letter that does not help in the least.  So be brave you owe the money so they have to take what you CAN AFFORD and you should keep back what you will need to live on confortable, get tough with these bank manager, I know they make you feel small, but it is people like you that they make mony on.


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## RainyDay (17 Aug 2005)

oysterman said:
			
		

> Could I reinforce Rainyday's excellent point about the payment protection?
> 
> On the facts you've outlined, this screams out as a case of mis-selling of this notorious product.
> 
> .


I agree, but the mis-selling is dependant on the original poster confirming that they were doing contract work at the time of taking out the loan.


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## PMU (18 Aug 2005)

When you say: "I have been consistent with my repayments and after lodging the €5K, reducing my loan by half, I was puzzled as to why they want me to pay the original amounts again". Are you sure that this actually happened? You said that you were making payments of 230 EUR a month and that then after one year, when presumably you paid nothing, you came to an arrangement to pay 30 EUR a month. Then you paid a 5 grand lump sum and the bank continued to ask you to pay 230 a month. I would check with the bank how they treated the lump some. If you did not pay anything for about a year you owed 230 X 12  in arrears, plus interest on the capital you had not paid off in that time. The bank almost certainly used the lump sum to pay off outstanding interest whereas you presumably thought that you were paying off 5 grand of the 10 grand loan. In fact unless you specifically said that the 5 grand was to pay off capital I guess that is what happened. You should confirm this with the bank. Be very careful of what you say, remember they are not your friends.


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## Fabulous (18 Aug 2005)

You maybe sure that the *BANK IS NOT a friend* they are in to make money and they will not give an inch.  So you should have everything in writing from them.  The 5kyou paid off will be taken as interest and you should check with bank what they have done with it as soon as possible go to your nearest free advice centre and ask for help.  If you cannot afford to pay any money back then that is the bank hard luck.  Do not be put in a position that you will have to go without food for yourself or family for the sake of the bank.  

​If they give it out to a collecting solicitor they bombard you with letters but just ignore them until they take you to court and then the court will decide what you can or can’t pay them.  





Best of Luck     



Fabulous


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## dam099 (18 Aug 2005)

Fabulous said:
			
		

> If they give it out to a collecting solicitor they bombard you with letters but just ignore them until they take you to court and then the court will decide what you can or can’t pay them.


 
I don't know that ignoring them is the best bet, don't let them get to you but I think it might be an idea to respond to each one (keep copies) stating your position, that you are unable to pay in full and are open to suggestions for a reasonable payment plan. I think this would help your position in any eventual court case if there should be one. 

If you have been unable to pay more than EUR30 per month you also need to negotiate some sort of concession on the interest accrued and depending on the amount of capital now outstanding the rate going forward because EUR30 will not have been covering the interest so your debt will have been rising. 

The bank may be happy for this to continue on the assumption that at some time in the future your circumstances may improve and you will be able to make increased payments however this is not in your interest.


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## wowser (18 Aug 2005)

Fabulous said:
			
		

> If they give it out to a collecting solicitor they bombard you with letters but just ignore them until they take you to court and then the court will decide what you can or can’t pay them.


And then you have to pay their solicitors fees as well - good advice - NOT!


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## bond-007 (18 Aug 2005)

wowser said:
			
		

> And then you have to pay their solicitors fees as well - good advice - NOT!


 Actually it is good advice, as when they give it to a solicitor they must stop adding interest and fix charges which is a very good thing. 

Let the courts decide what you can pay.


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## gordongekko (18 Aug 2005)

A quick question are they still charging you for the payment protection?


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## clare (22 Aug 2005)

Hi,

Thanks everyone for your advice.  I have been trying in vain to make an appointment with my bank manager.  I am really disappointed and annoyed by BOI's attitude.  I have never received anything in writing from them except for the odd letter here and there asking me to increase my monthly payments.  
A different person is assigned to my account at different times so there is no continuity with the one person.  I even had one girl ring me asking me when would I get full time work, would I move back to Dublin?  I couldn't believe what I was hearing.  I had approached MABS before and they were acting on my behalf.    I stupidly thought that if I paid BOI the lump sum of €5K, that that would take some pressure off me.  I have had nothing in writing from head office or my local branch.  I actually found out by going into my local branch and ringing head office that they had refused to restructure my loan.  My local branch manager hadn't bothered to inform me.  On two occasions I wrote letters to my branch manager asking him what was the status on my loan account and he didn't reply to either one.  At this stage I am so sick of them stressing me out for the last 2 years that I feel like ignoring them and refusing to pay any more but that would probably make things worse.

I think I will approach MABS again.  The interest is eating up all the repayments I make so I feel that this will be around my neck forever.


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## clare (22 Aug 2005)

gordongekko said:
			
		

> A quick question are they still charging you for the payment protection?


 
I don't know.  My branch manager said that I was entitled to a refund and that 'they' would contact me but 'they' never did.


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## DrMoriarty (22 Aug 2005)

That in itself is grounds for a complaint to the [broken link removed]and the [broken link removed]. I suggest you put it all in writing to BoI* first, explain that you want a written response pdq from their internal complaints division, and indicate that you will then be referring it to the above offices...

I had a small problem with BoI a few years ago and that's how I got satisfaction, anyway!

_*Customer Care Unit_
_Bank of Ireland_
_Head Office_
_Lower Baggot Street_
_Dublin 2_


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## wexford (23 Aug 2005)

you should also find out how much you have paid todate in payment protection- get it back and knock it off the loan. Also point out to the bank that you took their advice on payment protection, while obviously the bank employee who advised you off this was ignorant of the full conditions. That should give you some leverage.


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## dam099 (23 Aug 2005)

wexford said:
			
		

> you should also find out how much you have paid todate in payment protection- get it back and knock it off the loan.


 
You should also make sure they refund interest on the payment protection payments.


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## WizardDr (24 Aug 2005)

Great respect and all that for MABS. As soon as a Bank hears MABS are involved ..you are regarded as bad news, and you are probably downgraded in their credit systems to a notch above write off. 
1. Were you on contract when you took out payment protection?
2. If they knew immediately look for a mis-selling settlement;
3. Go immediately to the branch that you dealt and put your case showing them what progress you made.
4. Threats with solicitors letter is only to get honest folk like you to pay ('decent honest but squeezed'); There is no doubt in my mind that you will pay so..
stand 7 foot tall and sort it.


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## PMU (24 Aug 2005)

Are you sure you were mis-sold the protection insurance?  For example, today I received an unsolicited application form for a loan from Friends First.  The form is very clear on payment protection insurance and has two boxes to tick, one for employees and one for self-employed/state your employment.  Needless to say the employee premium is less than the other. If you had a similar form from BoI did it make clear the difference between different types of employment?   If it did and you opted for protection insurance as an employee when you were on contract work that is not mis-selling.


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## ClubMan (24 Aug 2005)

WizardDr said:
			
		

> Great respect and all that for MABS. As soon as a Bank hears MABS are involved ..you are regarded as bad news, and you are probably downgraded in their credit systems to a notch above write off.


What's to stop somebody going to _MABS_, getting advice and then pursuing the matter themselves without having _MABS_ act as an intermediary thus not divulging to the financial institution that this contact was made? Also - surely while the _MABS _contact may be noted for credit purposes by the financial institution(s) involved this information is not recorded in one's _ICB _credit records so other financial institutions with whom one has not yet transacted business will never know? Personally I would be more inclined to recommend that somebody deal with _MABS _one way or another than to prevaricate further for fear that this will have some knock on effect on one's credit rating with the situation presumably getting worse all the while...


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## mmclo (24 Aug 2005)

I think IFSRA might have some interest in the contents of your latest post.


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## bond-007 (24 Aug 2005)

My my personal experiences the banks can be  dissmissive of the approaches of MABS. I also found that MABs were not acting in my best interests at all times. They wanted other ppl in my house to help pay my debts, something they are not legally obliged to do. In some ways there are acting as frontmen for the banks.


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## ClubMan (24 Aug 2005)

bond-007 said:
			
		

> My my personal experiences the banks can be  dissmissive of the approaches of MABS.


Interesting - I have no direct personal experience with them and always assumed that they would be the first and maybe best port of call for people experiencing debt problems.


> I also found that MABs were not acting in my best interests at all times. They wanted other ppl in my house to help pay my debts, something they are not legally obliged to do. In some ways there are acting as frontmen for the banks.


Can you expand on this at all? Why did you think that they were not acting in your best interests? What was your domestic situation and who were they asking to help defray your debts? And how do you consider that they were acting as frontmen for the banks? Did you voice your concerns and challenge any allegedly inappropriate behaviour or advice on their part?


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## bond-007 (25 Aug 2005)

I was in a bit of bother a while back with a few grand owing to a bank. I said that I could offer x to them ,but mabs said they won't accept that and asked if my parents could help pay. It was my debt and my parents didn't incur it. Why should they pay?

as for my frontmen comments, they didn't explain all my legal options availble to me such as letting the bank get an installment order where I could demonstrate my inabilty to pay etc. They just kept saying get the money from other ppl.


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## ClubMan (25 Aug 2005)

Thanks for the feedback. Can you say when this was? Maybe they were less funded/resourced and therefore more constrained in terms of the quality of the advice that they were able to give to people at the time? In relation to asking your parents to contribute is there any possibility that this was simply one potential strategy that they advised/investigated? I'm not familiar with "installment orders". Can you explain or link to info about them?


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## bond-007 (25 Aug 2005)

When a person owes money to a bank or other creditor they can go to court and get a judgemnt against you for the money you owe.

If this is still not paid they can ask the court for an installment order. The debtor can then tell the court their circumstances and the court will then decide how much you can afford to pay if any.


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## ClubMan (25 Aug 2005)

Thanks for that explanation.


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## clare (23 Sep 2005)

*What will happen to me - will I end up in jail? Part 2*

Many thanks to all who offered advice.  I am looking for more advice as a result of the latest development.  
First of all let me recap....

I got a loan years ago. On three occasions over the years I got a top up on the loan.  I had payment protection from the beginning.  When I applied for a top up on the existing loan, what happened is the old a/c was closed and a new one opened.  On the last 2 occasions that I applied for a top up I was asked if I wanted payment protection.  Of course I said yes, thinking it would be of some benefit.  I supplied letters from my employer stating how much I was earning and the letter clearly stated that I was on a contract.  Do I have a case for recouping payment protection on that basis?

My contract came to an end in March 2003.  I was working in Dublin. I was pregnant.  My partner was in Galway.  I moved to be with him.  I couldn't get work due to being pregnant.  I became a stay at home mum.  I am mother to a 2 year old.   I was claiming U/B.  My payment protection was worth nothing as anyone on contract is not entitled to have their loan paid for them.  

I was out of work for over a year and a half.  I now work part time but my wages are low and certainly not a patch on what I got in Dublin.  All the while I stayed in contact with my bank and did my best to pay back what I could.

My loan had grown to 10K.  This year I managed to pay a lump sum of 5K.  
My local branch manager said he would ask head office to restructure the loan.  This was refused.  They stated that they wanted to receive original payment installments of over €232 pm.  This is impossible for me.

For over two and a half years I have received constant phone calls and letters from Bank of Ireland staff demanding increased payments despite me paying a regular sum every month.   All my payments have been constantly cancelled out due to interest being added.  It's like I've paid nothing and I never will be able to pay it off if they keep adding interest.

Today I met the branch manager (I didn't get the loan from him) and he said that his hands were tied and he was as frustrated as I was.  He said that there was nothing he could do for me and that I should contact a solicitor at this stage.  Is this correct?  I don't know who I should contact in the bank if I do go to a solicitor.

Is this the usual route?  I would welcome any advice.  I am really gutted and feel that all my efforts have meant nothing.

Clare


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## royrogers (24 Sep 2005)

*Re: What will happen to me - will I end up in jail? Part 2*

Fist of all prepare a budget for yourself and then WRITE to the bank, no good call or phoning it must be in writing and record it is possible as they will probably say that they never received it from you, after you have done a budget taking everything into ie rent payments and child care with everything else including birthday presents do not leave yourself short, tell the bank that you can pay them half of what you are able to as they will always want more.  If they refuse to accept then you can up it a bit more and if they refuse that then tell you cannot pay and they cannot get blood from a stone but they will try.  It would seem best for you for to let the bank take you to court and they will decide what you can affort to pay.  Remember the court will be on your side as you have made every attempt to pay but the bank was been very unreasonable.  The court will maybe decide that you can only pay lets 5 euro per month for the rest of your life.  You must put everything in writing to the bank as it is proof of how you have been trying to resolve your debt with the bank to no avail.  Best of luck - Do not worry about it as the bank are not going to easy but they are machines and do not take it personnally as they treat all debtors in the same way.


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## bond-007 (24 Sep 2005)

*Re: What will happen to me - will I end up in jail? Part 2*

As, royrogers just said, let them make the next move. You have done all you can, let a court decide that you can pay and if it's only €5 a month the bank will look stupid and they will not get their costs. 

Don't let them frighten you. Hold your ground and you will be fine.


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## MugsGame (24 Sep 2005)

*Re: What will happen to me - will I end up in jail? Part 2*

I think you have good grounds for a refund of all the payment protection premiums, plus interest (at the loan rate). The product was not suitable for you - misselling. You declared that you were on contract before accepting the insurance proposal, so the whole insurance contract should be null and void. 

Moreover, some banks (used to?) calculate payment protection as a lump sum. They pay this to their insurance subsidiary at the start of the loan. They then add this lump sum to the loan amount and lend it to you. This way you pay interest on the cost of the payment protection! Worse, even if you repay the loan early, you end up paying what payment protection would have cost for the whole term.

Each time you topped-up the loan, the bank chose to cancel the original loan and start again. You took out payment protection three times. It's possible you have actually paid full-term payment protection for the original loan amount three times! If this is what happened, a refund of all payment protection premiums (plus interest!) could be very significant in the context of the remaining principle.

Unfortunately, I am not financially or legally qualified. I'm not sure who you should complain to. I expect a solicitor could be costly. I would write a letter asking for the total cost of all payment protection premiums (plus interest) to be refunded, on the grounds I have outlined above. You need to address this to the insurance company, not the bank. The insurance company is probably a subsidiary of the bank. If they have a customer complaints procedure, you need to exhaust it, in writing. At that point you should be able to bring a complaint to the Insurance Ombudsman ([broken link removed]).


As Roy Rogers has said, you also need to write to the bank setting out your financial situation and once more repeating your offer to pay what you are already paying as a restructuring of the loan. I think this needs to be separate from any payment protection complaint, to avoid the complaint as a whole not coming under anyone's jurisdiction.

Good luck!


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## daltonr (27 Sep 2005)

*Re: What will happen to me - will I end up in jail? Part 2*

No you won't go to jail.
But as long as this is hanging over you you're in a sort of Jail.

Contact MABS immediately.   If you haven't already. 
www.mabs.ie 
-Rd


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## Lilia (27 Sep 2005)

*Re: What will happen to me - will I end up in jail? Part 2*

Maybe go to your credit union, get a loan from them and clear the bank loan.  They are much more understanding about this sort of stuff and although you may not have any savings history with them, they will usuaslly look at every case individually..


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## Diddles (27 Sep 2005)

*Re: What will happen to me - will I end up in jail? Part 2*

As a prominent business man/gangster once said

'Borrow 10k you worry about it,borrow 1million and the bank worrys about it'

So true
Best of luck
D


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## ClubMan (27 Sep 2005)

Two related threads merged - please do not duplicate posts/threads as per the . Please keep all related discussion in an existing thread where applicable.


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## alpha (3 Oct 2005)

hi all. i am new to this site. i have found mabs to be quite good as i have been with them for over 3 years now. they have taken care of everything and have also kept me out of court. they did ask could a family member pay off my debts but when they heard that that was not possible they suggested i pay just 5 euros a month to several of my creditors. i still get threatening letters from time to time which does upset me i must say. mabs do keep in constant contact with them... thank god. i can only pay the 5 euros a month as i am on disability. the banks know this yet it doesn't stop them from turning up the heat. i would recommend that a person in debt contacts mabs.


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## bond-007 (3 Oct 2005)

> they did ask could a family member pay off my debts



Seems to be common theme with mabs, thats why i didn't trust them. Possible vested interest? who knows?


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## RainyDay (3 Oct 2005)

bond-007 said:
			
		

> Seems to be common theme with mabs, thats why i didn't trust them. Possible vested interest? who knows?


Seems to be an unnecessary slur - MABS is Govt funded and locally managed. There is no vested interest, and I think it's pretty unfair to imply that this might be possible without any real evidence.

I don't think it's an unreasonable suggestion to make to a person in debt.


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## ClubMan (3 Oct 2005)

bond-007 said:
			
		

> Seems to be common theme with mabs, thats why i didn't trust them. Possible vested interest? who knows?


I'd imagine that borrowing from family members to defray debts is just *one* of the solutions that _MABS _might propose in this sort of situation. Maybe somebody with direct experience can comment? I'm not sure how they would have a vested interest and how suggesting family borrowing might tie in with any vested interest. Perhaps you could explain?


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## bond-007 (3 Oct 2005)

When I went to see them some time ago, thats all they would go on about. They were not interested in talking to creditors etc. It did not instill confidence in me. I ended up making direct contact with creditors instead.


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## ClubMan (3 Oct 2005)

So this was the only recommendation that they made in your specific case. Has anybody else dealt with _MABS _and found that this is the only recommendation that they made? Can you expand on what you meant by a potential vested interest in this respect? How did you get on when you approached creditors directly? If, as I suspect, you posted details before feel free to just link to the thread in question. Thanks.


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## RainyDay (3 Oct 2005)

bond-007 said:
			
		

> When I went to see them some time ago, thats all they would go on about. They were not interested in talking to creditors etc. It did not instill confidence in me. I ended up making direct contact with creditors instead.


I'd agree that your experience was unsatisfactory. Perhaps it is worth highlighting this to local MABS chairperson? Certainly, I'd expect them to provide more options.

I do think that (based on some posts on AAM) that some people have an unreasonable expectation of MABS, insofar as they expect MABS to wave a magic wand and wipe off the debts. They can't/won't/shouldn't do this - though they should help to manage the outstanding debts.


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## alpha (3 Oct 2005)

to be honest i now find mabs very helpful. in the begining they wanted me to contact the creditors myself but that soon came to a stop after i had words with them. i told them that that should be their job. otherwise why are they in the business? if i have to contact them myself there is no point in having such an organisation. i'd be lost without them though.


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## ClubMan (3 Oct 2005)

alpha said:
			
		

> to be honest i now find mabs very helpful. in the begining they wanted me to contact the creditors myself but that soon came to a stop after i had words with them. i told them that that should be their job.


Seems like a very impudent attitude to have with them I have to say. They are merely a advice and support agency and are not ultimately responsible for the debts that individuals get themselves into and for which they themselves are responsible.


> otherwise why are they in the business?


They are not in business - they are a free support and advisory service. I have no direct experience of them but reckon that they provide a very useful service to those who, for whatever reason find themselves in financial difficulties. But I certainly don't think that taxpayers money should be unduly spent on free advice to people who often should know better than to get themselves into significant debts and then expect somebody else to bail them out of their situations. Without engaging in the sort of "Nanny State" knocking that can crop up at times, I do wonder if Governments sometimes spend too much time and resources protecting people from their own actions...


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## alpha (3 Oct 2005)

i became extremely ill and as a result found myself out of work. that lead to the debts. i was an excellent payer before that. i would never expect anybody to bail me out fully. if that was the case i would have allowed my family to do so. if my family had of done that there would have been no need to contact mabs. i did say i'd be lost without mabs and how i find them very helpful. i am simply pointing out how mabs did absolutely nothing for me to start with until after i had a few words with them. if mabs were to continue doing nothing then what's the point? people were asking for comments on mabs were they not? i am not going to get into my illness but a person in my position needs all the help they can get from mabs. by the way, when i said why are they (mabs) in the business i meant why do they exist?


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## ClubMan (3 Oct 2005)

I think that _MABS _recommending that people in debt contact their lenders as a first step is quite a prudent one. After all that is the responsible first step that some people are afraid to make without some encouragement and assistance. In addition approaching the lenders directly as opposed having _MABS _as some sort of proxy representative might be better since some lenders get very worried when they know that _MABS _are involved and might be even less inclined to come to an arrangement or to advance credit in the future as a result (at least that's what I've heard anecdotally here on _AAM _and elsewhere). In such a situation I presume that _MABS_ would assist the debtor in preparing their case and collating the relevant details with which to approach the lenders but I see no intrinsic problem with them encouraging individuals to take the next step and to deal with their own problems themselves. Neither do I see any intrinsic problem in them suggesting approaching family members for a dig out as *one *possible remedial action even if I don't personally like this sort of thing myself since I know from personal experience that this can lead to problems...


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## alpha (3 Oct 2005)

ok a small bit then...

i had a nervous breakdown within days of contacting mabs and was in hospital for months yet they wanted me to contact the creditors all by myself. they offered no assistance there. i am not as bad as i was but i must say that asking someone in that state to contact creditors is outrageous. i could hardly hold a phone not to mention ringing creditors to arrange repayments. i do know right from wrong and that was wrong. thank god their attitude has now changed. they can be very helpful when they want to be.

for example, you can't expect a person, who all of a sudden develops alzheimer's or schizophrenia to address their debts all by themselves.


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## ClubMan (4 Oct 2005)

Just to be clear, I was not doubting your experience or challenging you to post information about your situation to justify matters. I sympathise (in fact, empathise to some extent) with you in terms of what you went through. However I still don't necessarily think that it's _MABS _responsibility to deal with the approaches and negotiations in such a situation in spite of how difficult it is for the individual to endure and work through such a life event. I do believe that they should assist and advise in the preparation of a case for presentation to the lenders but ultimately it is up to the individual (or family, friends or professional advisors on their behalf) to deal with them. This is just my opinion on the matter. I'm not sure what _MABS's_ "letter of the law" is on it though.


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## Michael Cull (4 Oct 2005)

Hi,
Just a note to say that MABS is a money advice and budgeting service that is independent of the credit industry. The MABS Service is financed totally by the Department of Social and Family Affairs.

 In order to maintain the ability to be the honest broker it is essential that the respect of the client and the confidence of the credit industry are maintained by MABS. Money Advisers at all times have the best interests of their clients at heart and work tirelessly with clients in putting their financial affairs in order and by negotiating affordable and sustainable agreements.

MABS is now recognised by the credit industry and by the general public as being very effective in supporting overindebted people deal with their situation. We are unable however to comment on individual cases because of the confidential nature of our service.

visit www.mabs.ie


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## ClubMan (4 Oct 2005)

_Michael _- without getting into specific individual cases can you say if approaching family members for assistance would be one of a number of standard suggestions that _MABS _would offer clients? In addition is it the exception or the rule for _MABS _to approach creditors on behalf of clients or would it be more common for _MABS _to assist in collation of information and outlining of the "case" while leaving it to the individual to deal directly with the creditors?


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## Brendan Burgess (4 Oct 2005)

Hi Bond

This is the first time I have heard anyone claiming MABS has a vested interest. I know many of the counsellors and they are top quality and honest people working in a very difficult environment. To suggest that they are a front for the banks is bizarre. 

It is very good advice to suggest to someone that they seek financial help from relatives or friends. If you owe the banks money, why would MABS not suggest that you seek help with the repayments if you can't make them from your own resources? 

I doubt it's MABS policy to show people how to exploit the legal system to avoid making payments. Their role is to help people deal with overexpenditure and debt. 

I would also suspect that MABS meet some clients who try to use MABS to avoid their debts and if a MABS counsellor suspects this, they presumably would not entertain them. 

Brendan


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## CCOVICH (4 Oct 2005)

Brendan said:
			
		

> I doubt it's MABS policy to show people how to exploit the legal system to avoid making payments.



And it shouldn't be.


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