# Irish Times "Who would be a landlord?"



## Brendan Burgess (26 Feb 2022)

A landlord’s life: ‘On the darker days I’ve been spat at and threatened with a knife’
					

Numbers don’t add up for small landlords who are exiting the market




					www.irishtimes.com
				




_Who would be a landlord?

Many would sooner admit to being an axe murderer these days. Commentators with a knack for a soundbite have merged those who rent out property into one convenient, avaricious bogeyman. Some landlords are making lots of money, of course, but others really are not.

Cuckoo, vulture, parasite, profiteer – many landlords don’t recognise themselves in the housing debate. The soundbite merchants would have you believe that foreign funds own the entire rental sector, hoovering up housing stock and renting it back to us at extortionate rates. The reality is that a landlord in Ireland is far more likely to be your retired uncle, your taxi driver, your sister or the owner of the corner shop._


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## DazedInPontoon (27 Feb 2022)

Brendan Burgess said:


> _ The reality is that a landlord in Ireland is far more likely to be your retired uncle, your taxi driver, your sister or the owner of the corner shop._


Yeah, the middle class. The reality is a lot of the people renting are seeing their rent going up beyond the official rates of inflation. So they feel stuck renting in a rising market, with rents so high they can't escape it. They will never have sympathy for whatever cashflow issues a landlord is having with what is usually an additional property to the primary one which they also own.



> _The soundbite merchants would have you believe_


If you actually listen to the people renting you don't need to listen to soundbites at all to know what the reality is.


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## AlbacoreA (27 Feb 2022)

DazedInPontoon said:


> Yeah, the middle class. The reality is a lot of the people renting are seeing their rent going up beyond the official rates of inflation. So they feel stuck renting in a rising market, with rents so high they can't escape it. They will never have sympathy for whatever cashflow issues a landlord is having with what is usually an additional property to the primary one which they also own.
> 
> 
> If you actually listen to the people renting you don't need to listen to soundbites at all to know what the reality is.



Listening to only one side is exactly why the market is the way it's is.


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## Firefly (7 Mar 2022)

More landlords than ever putting properties up for sale, say new figures
					

Notices to quit from landlords to tenants rose to 958 in final quarter of 2021




					www.irishtimes.com
				




_More landlords than ever putting properties up for sale, say new figures

There was a sharp increase throughout last year in the number of notices to quit issued to tenants, according to the Residential Tenancies Board, rising from 352 in the first quarter of the year to 958 in the final quarter._

Hilariously, SF Eoin Ó Broin:
_“This is not a new trend but Government refuses to put in place a plan to slow down this disorderly exit of accidental and semi-professional landlords from the market.”_


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## Gordon Gekko (7 Mar 2022)

Ironic in the extreme that many landlords are leaving because of a fear of what Sinn Fein/IRA might do if they get into government.

The idea of unelected Army Council members in Belfast influencing housing policy here in Ireland is a scary one.


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## Mcivor (7 Mar 2022)

SF response is ironic alright as I'd say their anti landlord rhetoric is driving a lot of landlords to sell up now while they still can. The SF plan to prevent the impact of this landlord exodus is to remove selling as grounds for terminating tenancies, and only to allow properties to be sold with tenants in situ. This would greatly reduce such property values as would restrict interest to investors only, and only those that can fund the purchase with cash as banks insist on vacant possession when issuing mortgages. This 'plan' would have a serious impact on property values both houses and apartments, and I think in some ways explains the exodus of smaller landlords from the market. Onerous taxes, increasing regulations and anti landlord sentiment are also contributing to this exodus


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## AlbacoreA (7 Mar 2022)

One LL I was talking to at the weekend said they felt they would lose control of their properties. 

If you might be thinking you'll have changes, in your financial situation, perhaps a different focus. You don't want to have assets and funds locked into a long term contract you can't get out of for a best part of decade or so. Which is what most people are expecting is coming any day now.


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## Thirsty (7 Mar 2022)

Gordon Gekko said:


> Ironic in the extreme that many landlords are leaving because of a fear of what Sinn Fein/IRA might do if they get into government.


To be very clear, and to ensure that I am not accused of being argumentative or off topic I would point out that I have reported this post. 

Which report was rejected with the recommendation (somewhat to my surprise) that I post my report here.

The IRA was and remains an illegal organisation.

Sinn Fein is a legitimate political party.

However one might feel about their policies, naming a legitimate political party as an illegal terrorist organisation is at best poor discourse; at worst it skates close to the defamation that is so carefully avoided on this board.


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## Gordon Gekko (8 Mar 2022)

Thirsty said:


> To be very clear, and to ensure that I am not accused of being argumentative or off topic I would point out that I have reported this post.
> 
> Which report was rejected with the recommendation (somewhat to my surprise) that I post my report here.
> 
> ...











						Garda Commissioner ‘stands over’ IRA-Sinn Féin remarks
					

Drew Harris says he gave the position of the Garda and never engages ‘in political interference’




					www.irishtimes.com
				




So you disagree with both the Gardai and the PSNI?


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## NoRegretsCoyote (8 Mar 2022)

Thirsty said:


> The IRA was and remains an illegal organisation.
> 
> Sinn Fein is a legitimate political party.


There is historically a lot of overlap, probably a lot less now.

The issue is that SF have a large democratic mandate and calling them "SF-IRA" is name-calling. It's a bit like how people called Fianna Fáil "Zanu-FF" around 2005. It's also just tedious, distracts attention from the real issues, and is unlikely to convince anyone who is not already very partisan.


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## Clamball (8 Mar 2022)

A landlord I spoke to over the weekend has sold their property and were glad to do so.  Back in 2006 they instructed the agent not to rent it out again as they wanted to sell but the agent made a mistake and rented it, then the crash happened and they were stuck.  Finally the value increased and they gave notice in 2021, tenants left and they freshened it up and put it on the market and sold.   Between capital gains tax, tax on the rental income, hassle with tenants (the neighbours were not slow to complain) and general upkeep of the property they ended up with very little profit for the effort they made.  They feel they are no better off than they would have been selling back in 2006. 

They possibly also held onto it in the hope the kids might use it during their college years but this did not happen either.


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## Gordon Gekko (8 Mar 2022)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> There is historically a lot of overlap, probably a lot less now.
> 
> The issue is that SF have a large democratic mandate and calling them "SF-IRA" is name-calling. It's a bit like how people called Fianna Fáil "Zanu-FF" around 2005. It's also just tedious, distracts attention from the real issues, and is unlikely to convince anyone who is not already very partisan.


How can anyone compare “Zanu-FF” with Sinn Fein-IRA”?

The police North AND South of the border have said that the Provisional Army Council controls both Sinn Fein AND the IRA.

Zanu PF are dodgy despots down in southern Africa with literally nothing to do with FF.


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## Firefly (8 Mar 2022)

Clamball said:


> A landlord I spoke to over the weekend has sold their property and were glad to do so.  Back in 2006 they instructed the agent not to rent it out again as they wanted to sell but the agent made a mistake and rented it, then the crash happened and they were stuck.  Finally the value increased and they gave notice in 2021, tenants left and they freshened it up and put it on the market and sold.   Between capital gains tax, tax on the rental income, hassle with tenants (the neighbours were not slow to complain) and general upkeep of the property they ended up with very little profit for the effort they made.  They feel they are no better off than they would have been selling back in 2006.
> 
> They possibly also held onto it in the hope the kids might use it during their college years but this did not happen either.


Friends of ours sold recently too after being put through the ringer twice by tenants who stopped paying rent & left the place each time needing thousands in renovations. Can you imagine not paying rent on anything else and being allowed to retain possession of it?


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## cremeegg (8 Mar 2022)

Thirsty said:


> To be very clear, and to ensure that I am not accused of being argumentative or off topic I would point out that I have reported this post.
> 
> Which report was rejected with the recommendation (somewhat to my surprise) that I post my report here.
> 
> ...


There are a number of otherwise reasonable posters on here who are just a little obsessed with SF/IRA, if you just look on it as a harmless side effect of too long spent reading the IT and watching Claire Byrne you will find your enjoyment of AAM will be immeasurably increased.


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## Gordon Gekko (8 Mar 2022)

cremeegg said:


> There are a number of otherwise reasonable posters on here who are just a little obsessed with SF/IRA, if you just look on it as a harmless side effect of too long spent reading the IT and watching Claire Byrne you will find your enjoyment of AAM will be immeasurably increased.


The country and its electorate are sleepwalking into armageddon. Sinn Fein/IRA will lay waste to everything that’s been built since Whitaker and Lemass put us on the right path. Landlords, tenants, employees, business owners…everyone will be worse off. I for one do not want the Army Council of the Provisional IRA running the country. This site has more than its fair share of smart reasonable people; you have a duty to fight the rise of Sinn Fein/IRA. Ireland is now analagous to 1930s Germany; let’s not allow our country to be walked off a cliff. These people are grifters and chancers, but they’re also dangerous. I don’t agree with Ivana Bacik’s politics, but I can safely say that she or her supporters won’t kneecap me or murder me. These people aren’t the Healy-Raes…they’re sinister.


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## Sarenco (8 Mar 2022)

On RTE’s drivetime yesterday, Eoin O Broin said that there was really nothing that could be done to stop (what he called) accidental and semi-professional landlords exiting the rental market.

I found that surprising as Sinn Fein are promoting a Bill to remove an intention to sell as a legitimate ground for terminating a tenancy.

Has there been a change of mind?


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## AlbacoreA (9 Mar 2022)

Sarenco said:


> On RTE’s drivetime yesterday, Eoin O Broin said that there was really nothing that could be done to stop (what he called) accidental and semi-professional landlords exiting the rental market.
> 
> I found that surprising as Sinn Fein are promoting a Bill to remove an intention to sell as a legitimate ground for terminating a tenancy.
> 
> Has there been a change of mind?



They want to lull people with a false sense of security to stop them fleeing the market. 

Leopard and his spots doesn't change.


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## Mcivor (9 Mar 2022)

Eoin O'Broin / SF are on record multiple times pressing the govt to remove intention to sell as a legitimate ground for ending tenancies and that rental properties - houses and apartments could only be sold with tenants in situ. Now Eoin is claiming there is really nothing to be done to stop landlords leaving the market!! Have SF changed their mind on this now, or more likely Eoin has been told to play down this policy as it is one of the factors causing landlords to exit the market, or hopefully it's unconstitutional. If so he should be upfront and say this.

SF are also on record as opposing property taxes on *PPR* properties and are probably the only left wing socialist party in Europe to support such a policy. Crazy stuff as this has served to widen the tax base and there are already exemptions in place for low earners on this tax. The wealthy have limited means to avoid this tax on their expensive houses. Where will the revenue shortfall come from if they get to implement this plan? From non PPR i.e. rental properties of course and landlords will find themselves paying multiples of current property tax on their rental property and probably still unable to claim tax relief on this payment.

In my opinion, the above SF policies that will likely be implemented if / when they get into power plus current high levels of taxation and ever increasing legislation is driving landlords out of the market

I'm not a regular Irish Times reader / Claire Byrne listener...  but I have been around long enough to understand Eoin O'Broin's / SF policies and their subtext when I hear them and the likely impact on the 'wealthy' - whoever they are!


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## PebbleBeach2020 (9 Mar 2022)

I've said this before. SF have their tactics bang on on this one. They object to planning developments even when they are all social and affordable housing, thus preventing/delaying the building of houses. This doesn't solve the current housing crisis, it doesn't increase supply and it makes SF more popular as a result of the government being seen as being ineffective in terms of fixing or alleviating the crisis.

Next, SF speak about three year rent freezes, landlords not being able to get vacant possession of their property etc and this is spooking the landlords in the rental sector as the moment. Very few landlords (non-corporate) are entering the rental sector as this time. Landlords are uncertain what SF would do, if they got into power no later than summer of 2025, so they are taking the opportunity now to give notice to tenants and sell up their rental property. As a result of this, supply of rental properties are being reduced and this is making an already difficult situation in finding accommodation, even worse again! And what happens when SF do this...............they become even more popular again because the public view the crisis as getting worse.

So in terms of political nous, SF advisors are spot on. It's making the crisis a whole lot worse and for current renters, there's a much higher chance of their home being sold by the landlord, but SF (if and when they are in government) will find only corporate landlords remain and they charge top dollar for their properties. Lets see SF house the tens of thousands of people on HAP then with the corporate sector the only ones there to take up the slack.


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## AlbacoreA (9 Mar 2022)

This isn't a tax issue. 

Their policies simply increase the risk to a landlord to a point at which is not worth the hassle or risk. 

If you want to decrease the income taken by landlords but still make it attractive to invest,  then you have to balance this by decreasing the risk. That's the trade off.


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## AlbacoreA (9 Mar 2022)

I expect SF expect to start a massive housing building programme once in Govt. I'm not sure how they will finance it though. Massive borrowing perhaps. With predictable downsides that brings.


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## jpd (9 Mar 2022)

Apart from the financing aspect, where will they get the builders, carpenters, plumbers, electricians, painters, tilers, etc etc to build all these houses?


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## PebbleBeach2020 (9 Mar 2022)

jpd said:


> Apart from the financing aspect, where will they get the builders, carpenters, plumbers, electricians, painters, tilers, etc etc to build all these houses?


Perhaps they think they will all leave the private sectors to go work in the public sector. Aren't we always being told how attractive and valuable a public sector job is?! It's handy cause with all the free houses, demand in the private sector will fall anyway. Genius!


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## AlbacoreA (9 Mar 2022)

They'll import them like they did last time.


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## Leo (9 Mar 2022)

AlbacoreA said:


> They'll import them like they did last time.


Big shortages amongst most trades already and they're certainly not coming like they did last time...


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## PebbleBeach2020 (9 Mar 2022)

AlbacoreA said:


> They'll import them like they did last time.


A Gerry Adams type response. Always remember him being asked a question about plugging the holes in the national finances during a debate and Gerry replied that he'd take some 6 or 7 billion from the pension reserve fund, only to be interrupted by the chairman facilitating the debate that there was only 3 billion left in the pension reserve fund. Gerry shot him a look and repeated that he'd take 6 or 7 billion from the pension reserve fund. Perhaps he meant the magic money tree instead of the pension reserve fund!!!


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## AlbacoreA (9 Mar 2022)

No political conspiracy theories required.  Just looking at the reports, and I'd heard about the apprenticeship numbers coming back. 









						Construction jobs being added at a rapid pace
					

Confidence within the sector has surged as Omicron fears have dissipated




					www.irishexaminer.com
				




We're only just out of the pandemic bit early for the dramatics.


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## jpd (9 Mar 2022)

That article is based on construction industry analysts workng for the construction industry - but they do not address the underlying problem of lack of trained workers


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## AlbacoreA (9 Mar 2022)

I take your point but...

...I'm not sure what you are looking for. People and firms aren't going to rock up for  construction programmes not yet announced , by a Govt not yet in power.  Current Govt is doing very little to stimulate housing.

Last time we had an influx of builders from all over, and they left when there was no work. Irish construction workers go all over the world, as do workers from other countries. Same happened with apprenticeships. I've worked in construction in 3 different countries before I left it.

These things take time to grow. The amount of construction over the past 5yrs in the docklands is staggering. It wasn't Harry Potter Building them.


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## jpd (10 Mar 2022)

There may have been a lot of building - but we still only managed 15,000 houses and 5,000 appartments in 2021 when we need to buidling 30,000-40,000 a year


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## AlbacoreA (10 Mar 2022)

I don't know what last year has got to do with a hypothetical future govt. 

The conversation "who would be landlords" has to be forward looking. Otherwise it would be framed in the past tense.


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## jpd (10 Mar 2022)

The proposition that we will build 40,000 homes a year in the near future is pie in the sky thinking, at least for another 3 or 4 years, no matter who is in government.

Forcing or pressuring private landlords to sell, as SF are doing by threatening them with draconian measures to be passed in a couple of years, does absolutely nothing to solve the housing crisis - not one single extra home is provided when a private landlord evicts a tenant and sells to an owner-occupier.

But it makes for great public noise which is the name of the game


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## Lockup (10 Mar 2022)

jpd said:


> not one single extra home is provided when a private landlord evicts a tenant and sells to an owner-occupier.


actually occupancy is reduced when it moves to owner occupier. So it makes problem worse. 

Also every mom and pop LL I know who has sold in the last few years has been to the council or a REIT. So its fine to attack the Lad paying 50% tax. What will SF do to attack the REITS?


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## PebbleBeach2020 (10 Mar 2022)

Lockup said:


> actually occupancy is reduced when it moves to owner occupier. So it makes problem worse.
> 
> Also every mom and pop LL I know who has sold in the last few years has been to the council or a REIT. So its fine to attack the Lad paying 50% tax. What will SF do to attack the REITS?


By the time it's in SF's hands to act, it'll only be REITS left, so they had better tread carefully.


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## Shirazman (10 Mar 2022)

Lockup said:


> Also every mom and pop LL I know who has sold in the last few years has been to the council or a REIT. So its fine to attack the Lad paying 50% tax. What will SF do to attack the REITS?



They'll be far too busy arranging their United-Ireland referendum to bother about trivia like housing or homelessness.    

Furthermore, they'll probably spend the first couple of years criticising the last government for the problems that they have inherited.   It's Politics 101!


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