# Dental appointment cancellation charge.



## pingin (11 Apr 2018)

The other morning I left my home in north Dublin at 7.00am for an 8.30am dental hygienist appointment in south Dublin. Traffic is sometimes bad on this route, so I thought I’d leave plenty of time.

Unfortunately, traffic was tremendously heavy on Roebuck Road/Clonskeagh Road (chaotic school drop-offs) and I realised I would be late for my appointment. I pulled in to the side of the road and rang the surgery, explaining that I was stuck in traffic and would be about ten minutes late.

The receptionist spoke to the hygienist who felt that there wouldn’t be enough time to carry out my treatment. I then cancelled the appointment and enquired if I would be charged for it. She said she would find out and ring me back. She then said ‘The same thing happened in October 2016’. This remark I found a bit strange as it didn’t have anything to do with my present situation.

The receptionist rang me this morning to say there wouldn’t be a charge ‘but that if it happened again there would be a €50 charge’.

To me it sounded almost like a threat. I know they have to deal with cancellations but this seems like a case of punishing the customer. Are they legally allowed to do this?

The thing is that I have been on time 99% of the time, even though my 8.00am appointments often started 15 or 20 minutes late. Nobody has ever offered to refund me for this wait! No punishment for them. 

Now, I like this surgery (which is why I haven’t gone for a local dentist). It’s modern and I find the staff professional and friendly. I have given them thousands of euro over the past few years. The last time I was there I paid €90 for a twenty minute treatment session.

While I fully appreciate that the hygienist probably depends on customer payments for her salary, I don’t think I should be penalised for something I had no control over.


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## Palerider (11 Apr 2018)

They can apply charges, there is no law I am aware of that could cover this, supply and demand, your appointment had time set aside that would have generated income.  I think it is a trade off, not many would try and levy this in fear of losing you as a customer but if their services are in demand well that's different.


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## elacsaplau (11 Apr 2018)

Any time I've been kept waiting for a medical appointment, I bill my time.












[I've had to change medical advisers many times.....!!]


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## Leo (11 Apr 2018)

pingin said:


> Are they legally allowed to do this?



Yes, they are. It sounds here like they only start doing so after a third strike, which is entirely reasonable. No shows are a huge issue in the service industry, and it's the rest of us who end up paying the price.


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## Jim2007 (11 Apr 2018)

pingin said:


> She said she would find out and ring me back. She then said ‘The same thing happened in October 2016’. This remark I found a bit strange as it didn’t have anything to do with my present situation.



So can we take it that the same thing did happen in 2016 then???



pingin said:


> Now, I like this surgery (which is why I haven’t gone for a local dentist). It’s modern and I find the staff professional and friendly. I have given them thousands of euro over the past few years. The last time I was there I paid €90 for a twenty minute treatment session.



If you are not happy with the service, then you can always vote with your feet.  But in reality it does not matter what you paid in the past because you received a service for it in the past as well.



pingin said:


> While I fully appreciate that the hygienist probably depends on customer payments for her salary, I don’t think I should be penalised for something I had no control over.



So the hygienist who has even less control over when you get you act together and head off for your appointment should? Seriously?


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## Blackrock1 (11 Apr 2018)

ask yourself

how would they ever collect this cancellation charge? its a threat but wont ever come to anything because if they levy the charge you wont ever go back to them


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## T McGibney (11 Apr 2018)

Blackrock1 said:


> ask yourself
> 
> how would they ever collect this cancellation charge? its a threat but wont ever come to anything because if they levy the charge you wont ever go back to them



That works both ways. 

If it's levied and you don't pay it, you can never return to them.


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## Blackrock1 (11 Apr 2018)

of course so you can choose, either pay it and try make your appointments, or go elsewhere, you wont be stuck for choice in Dublin.


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## DeclanDublin (11 Apr 2018)

I thought most professionals like dentists and/or physios & other service providers have a 'no-show' fee in place. I know both mine have, It makes sense so as not to waste their time. But I would imagine leeway is made for genuine exceptions.


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## Monbretia (11 Apr 2018)

Equally if professionals want to enforce a no show fee there should be discounts depending on how long you are kept waiting after the appointment time.  I was at an appointment with a friend lately and she was kept waiting 1 hr 50 mins after appointment time, it's ridiculous, I fully intended to complain about the parking fee but as it happened it was actually quite cheap to park there.


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## llgon (11 Apr 2018)

Monbretia said:


> Equally if professionals want to enforce a no show fee there should be discounts depending on how long you are kept waiting after the appointment time.  I was at an appointment with a friend lately and she was kept waiting 1 hr 50 mins after appointment time, it's ridiculous, I fully intended to complain about the parking fee but as it happened it was actually quite cheap to park there.



A lot of delays at these appointments can be due to others arriving late or emergencies arising and being fitted in.  Some procedures can take longer than planned. What do you want the professional to do? Turn away emergencies or rush something so as to get on to the next person on time.  Seeing somebody who arrives late will probably have a knock on effect on everyone booked in after.  The dental practice in question here has offered leeway already but seem to have decided to draw the line now.

Hospital outpatient clinics are a different story where a lot of people are booked for around the same time but that's not really relevant to this thread. Presumably that's where your friend was waiting?


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## Monbretia (11 Apr 2018)

No my friend was not in a hospital outpatient clinic, it was a private consultants clinic which would not have had emergencies scenarios, I'm sure it was because everyone beforehand had run late but maybe if they allowed the proper length of time per appointment they would have a better chance of being on time.    I actually think if someone comes late for their appointment they should go to the end of the queue so if I have an appointment for 3 and the 2 o'clock one doesn't arrive until 2.45 then I should go first and they should wait!

But that is assuming they were leaving an hour per appointment whereas making appointments every 15 mins seems to be more the norm so there is never a chance of being seen on time.

I always now when making appointments will wait for a day where the first appointment of the morning is available if at all possible.

Hospital outpatient departments are a totally different thing and you can never expect to be seen on time there but at least you know that in advance and chances are you are not shelling out hundreds for it.


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## pingin (11 Apr 2018)

Thanks everybody for your opinions. I really don't want to be made an exception of but, as I said, the penalty should apply both ways. I can understand there being a strict policy in a hospital emergency department but a dental hygienist is different. Maybe they should leave more time between appointments.


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## Easeler (11 Apr 2018)

I am with you on this one I think you made a genuine effort to get in there on time but some days the traffic is unpredictable I probably would go looking for a new dentist someplace where your custom   would be appreciated. someone straight out of uni with a heap of loans to pay off.


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## llgon (11 Apr 2018)

I agree that you should take your custom elsewhere.  Seems mad to me to be travelling so far for a dental appointment, especially when you don't seem to be too happy with the service provided. Be careful though, someone with a heap of loans to pay off may be quicker to apply a cancellation charge!


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## Early Riser (12 Apr 2018)

pingin said:


> Maybe they should leave more time between appointments.



And charge more per session ? Or do you mean take a cut in income (because of traffic conditions, like)?


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## Slim (12 Apr 2018)

It's a silly idea that penalties should apply both ways. You can never tell what complications or difficulties the patient ahead of you is experiencing and the dentist(or doctor) can't just chuck them out at the end of the allotted time. No-shows are a significant problem both in public and private sector. In the private sector, a dentist or GP can be left with a 20 minute space where your appointment should have been, costing them money. My own dentist is likely to appreciate a gap but only when they have 24 hrs notice to get someone else in. I often have to wait in the GP waiting room for 20-30 minutes past my appointment time but I appreciate someone else is getting the time they need. It will be my turn someday. It is embarrassing and seems unfair but you need to get over it and see the bigger picture.


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## odyssey06 (12 Apr 2018)

Slim said:


> It's a silly idea that penalties should apply both ways. You can never tell what complications or difficulties the patient ahead of you is experiencing and the dentist(or doctor) can't just chuck them out at the end of the allotted time. No-shows are a significant problem both in public and private sector. In the private sector, a dentist or GP can be left with a 20 minute space where your appointment should have been, costing them money. My own dentist is likely to appreciate a gap but only when they have 24 hrs notice to get someone else in. I often have to wait in the GP waiting room for 20-30 minutes past my appointment time but I appreciate someone else is getting the time they need. It will be my turn someday. It is embarrassing and seems unfair but you need to get over it and see the bigger picture.



It depends though on whether they are jamming in too many appointments e.g. when they well know from experience that over the course of an hour they will only get through 4 people in the allotted time but have booked 5 appointments. In those circumstances, charging for a cancellation seems OTT!


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## T McGibney (12 Apr 2018)

odyssey06 said:


> It depends though on whether they are jamming in too many appointments e.g. when they well know from experience that over the course of an hour they will only get through 4 people in the allotted time but have booked 5 appointments. In those circumstances, charging for a cancellation seems OTT!


How is a consumer ever going to be in a position to determine this with any authority, though?


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## odyssey06 (12 Apr 2018)

T McGibney said:


> How is a consumer ever going to be in a position to determine this with any authority, though?



Well if your experience is that when you are there you are kept waiting and are never seen at your actual appointment time... that's the pushback I'd give if they tried this with me. Not an exact science I'll grant you


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## Early Riser (12 Apr 2018)

In the course of a typical week it would be interesting to know how many people either "no show" or cancel late because the cat is sick or "traffic delay" (real or not - and is the the provider's problem anyway?). The thing is that from day to day it is impossible to predict.

If the provider concerned is expected to just take this on the chin then it means either higher charges all round or tightly scheduled bookings, resulting in delays some of the time. Would punters be prepared to accept no-refund deposits as an alternative? 

In practice I suspect many providers have an informal system - accept it the first time and, maybe, a caution if it recurs. This seems very reasonable to me.

And, as Slim has said, emergencies and unpredictable matters arise and must be dealt with.


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## T McGibney (12 Apr 2018)

odyssey06 said:


> Well if your experience is that when you are there you are kept waiting and are never seen at your actual appointment time... that's the pushback I'd give if they tried this with me. Not an exact science I'll grant you


All depends on the context. I occasionally attend a particular practitioner and always request their last available appointment of the day, because that suits me and my work. 

I do so in the full knowledge that I will probably, on the law of averages, be kept waiting beyond the allotted time, simply because if there's any unexpected disruption to their appointments schedule during the day, that can affect later appointments.

If I want to avoid this, I'm free to opt for an appointment earlier in the day.


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## odyssey06 (12 Apr 2018)

T McGibney said:


> All depends on the context. I occasionally attend a particular practitioner and always request their last available appointment of the day, because that suits me and my work. I do so in the full knowledge that I will probably, on the law of averages, be kept waiting beyond the allotted time, simply because if there's any unexpected disruption to their appointments schedule during the day, that can affect later appointments.
> If I want to avoid this, I'm free to opt for an appointment earlier in the day.



I totally get that, but what I am challenging is how expected the "unexpected disruptions" are. I think it's a bit naive of a provider to expect that every day everything will run smoothly. Their experience should tell them to expect a certain amount of disruption to have built up as the day goes on.


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## elcato (12 Apr 2018)

I read my latest dentist T&C and they have a policy of a possible charge for a late cancellation or no show. They do allow a caveat where there may be a plausible excuse also. Seems fair to me.


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## llgon (12 Apr 2018)

odyssey06 said:


> I think it's a bit naive of a provider to expect that every day everything will run smoothly.



Who would expect that?

Obviously disruptions will occur but they can't be unlimited. Some control has to be exercised over those that are necessary and those that can be avoided.

It is clear from all posts that there is leeway provided - a zero tolerance policy would be unsustainable.


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## Leo (12 Apr 2018)

odyssey06 said:


> It depends though on whether they are jamming in too many appointments e.g. when they well know from experience that over the course of an hour they will only get through 4 people in the allotted time but have booked 5 appointments. In those circumstances, charging for a cancellation seems OTT!



I doubt there are too many providers operating such a model. Any who did (or their staff) would surely tire of working up to a 25% longer days much of the time to accommodate the additional appointments.


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## Purple (9 May 2018)

Slim said:


> I often have to wait in the GP waiting room for 20-30 minutes past my appointment time but I appreciate someone else is getting the time they need. It will be my turn someday. It is embarrassing and seems unfair but you need to get over it and see the bigger picture.


The bigger picture is that your time is as valuable as your doctor or dentist and if they make an appointment with you for a particular time they should stick to it. If it was unusual to be left waiting 20 or 30 minutes, or much longer on occasion, to see them then that would be one thing but when it is the norm them they are showing contempt for you their customer. 
I changed GP because she consistently left we waiting more than 30 minutes after my appointment time.


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## Purple (9 May 2018)

odyssey06 said:


> I totally get that, but what I am challenging is how expected the "unexpected disruptions" are. I think it's a bit naive of a provider to expect that every day everything will run smoothly. Their experience should tell them to expect a certain amount of disruption to have built up as the day goes on.


Exactly, so they should schedule appointments accordingly so that their customers aren't left waiting towards the end of the day.


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## Slim (9 May 2018)

Purple said:


> The bigger picture is that your time is as valuable as your doctor or dentist and if they make an appointment with you for a particular time they should stick to it. If it was unusual to be left waiting 20 or 30 minutes, or much longer on occasion, to see them then that would be one thing but when it is the norm them they are showing contempt for you their customer.
> I changed GP because she consistently left we waiting more than 30 minutes after my appointment time.


I don't agree about value and time in a situation where I am in pain(toothache) or concerned about a health issue(GP). I decide to turn up at their surgery at a mutually agreed appointed time but I have to accept that they may have overruns on prior appointments. I agree with you that repeated delays are rude and unacceptable and I would also change doctors in that situation. Public hospital consultants' appointment times are a joke, although unfunny.

In OP's case, I feel some sympathy for a busy dentist trying to run a business and no-shows are a pain and expensive.


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## Purple (9 May 2018)

Slim said:


> In OP's case, I feel some sympathy for a busy dentist trying to run a business and no-shows are a pain and expensive.


I have no problem with cancellation charges less than 24 hours before the appointment.


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## arbitron (9 May 2018)

This reminds me of the Seinfeld episode where George is charged for cancelling a physio appointment with less than 24 hours notice.  When the physiotherapist subsequently cancels on him for personal reasons (i.e. to go skiing), George tries to charge her a fee 

When I lived in the UK my GP had a maximum of 10 minutes per session and it was strictly enforced. If you needed 11 minutes you had to book in for an extra session, no exceptions. You had to be prepared and start talking the moment you got in the door, watching the clock like a hawk. It was horrible and made me feel like a nuisance.

Some people are shy/nervous seeing a dentist or doctor and they need extra time to relax. Healthcare is social as well as transactional. Anyway, I much prefer my current GP who is usually on time, occasionally delayed by 20 minutes, but always pays attention and gives me the time I need.


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