# Recommend a good family PC



## The Pool Boy (19 Jul 2010)

I'm looking to get a new family pc - uses mainly internet, music, films etc.

I like the look of the all in one offerings - they take up less space but are there any downsides to having an all in one (eg upgrading memory etc.)

I also like the touchscreens - I find my phone touchscreen to be great so wondering if this is a good avenue to go down.

I'd also consider a laptop if it suited.

Budget = up to €1000 but would prefer to come in around €700. What should be the main things to look out for to compare - RAM, processor speed, memory etc.


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## DrMoriarty (19 Jul 2010)

What ages are your kids? Touchscreen could become breakscreen very quickly.

There's a good guide here.

Something like  plus  would be well within budget, if you feel like getting up early next Thursday morning. And a three-year quibble-free warranty is a big bonus.


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## The Pool Boy (19 Jul 2010)

The kids are young so touchscreen may be an issue. I had seen that Aldi advert..I assume they are a good spec....what specs should I be looking for in a pc....for now and to future proof it.

Also, regarding the all in one is there any downside as opposed to the tower format.

I've previously bought from Dell. Any suggestions for best make and where to buy - online, PC World, Harvey Norman, Click etc.

Loads of questions but bowing to where I don't have expertise.


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## canicemcavoy (19 Jul 2010)

I had good luck with http://www.pcadvisor.co.uk/ and their desktop PC recommendations when I original bought one (now build my own these days)


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## DrMoriarty (19 Jul 2010)

The Pool Boy said:


> Also, regarding the all in one is there any downside as opposed to the tower format.


I would have said you'd pay a lot more for a far lesser machine. But I was surpised to see the Dell Inspiron One 19 available for under €500 delivered. 

It's far less powerful a machine than the Aldi one, but unless you want to use it for gaming or very processor-intensive video editing, it will probably do everything you need. Reviews seem lukewarm, though.


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## canicemcavoy (19 Jul 2010)

Touchscreens may be fine on a phone, but I imagine sharing a family PC with everyone touching the screen, having to continuously clean it would be an annoyance. Seems a gimmick more than anything else:

For the kind of PC you can get for €880, check this out:

[broken link removed]

Core i5 processor, high-end graphics card, 4 GB of RAM, 23 inch 1920x1080 monitor.


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## The Pool Boy (19 Jul 2010)

Thanks for the responses. Much appreciated and helpful.

Just to get the touchscreen out of my system I was looking at this in pc world - 

I guess the space saving of an all in one does have it's attractions, touchscreen or not, but I want to make sure it's not too much of a compromise re value for money and future proofing.


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## canicemcavoy (19 Jul 2010)

PB, that PC world one is - unsurprisingly for PC World - very poor value. It's only £100 less than the linked one, but the CPU (only a dual-core rather than a quad-core) is much much slower:

http://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu_list.php

AMD Athlon II X2 235e    Passmark: 1710   
Core i5 750 @ 2.67GHz   Passmark: 4208

And the graphics card isn't even in the same ballpark - and it's an onboard one, which means that it can't be replaced (a "last generation low end GPU" as one reviewer says). A dedicated card is much better than an onboard card, and for that price I wouldn't settle for an onboard one.


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## The Pool Boy (22 Jul 2010)

Thanks canicemcavoy for the pointers. I do realise PC World are poor value. I'm quoting them as they are the best place to go and see a large range of pc's and see each one physically, but I don't intend buying there.

Where would be the best place to buy from, online or shop, taking a balance between value and reputation.


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## canicemcavoy (22 Jul 2010)

Hi Poolboy; I haven't bought off the shelf in a long time (9 years!) so I'm not sure. That Chillblast place seems to have a good reputation; I haven't seen anything bad coming up from a google anyway. I'd suggest checking out and posting in a few places like:

[broken link removed]

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055293937 - Retailer discussion thread


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## The Pool Boy (27 Jul 2010)

On some of the pc's I'm looking at, they are advertised as having a built in digital tv tuner.

What, if any, tv stations would they receive...?

Sample type see link - http://www.argos.ie/static/Product/partNumber/5083998/c_1/1|category_root|Office%2C+PCs+and+phones|14418968/c_2/2|cat_14418968|Computers+and+monitors|14419111.htm


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## iWill (2 Aug 2010)

If you're interested in an 'all in one' format' (AIO), there are many PCs available running the new, improved version of Windows, 7. You have a wide choice of systems from several reputable manufactures for under €1000, and are packed to the gills with features, many of which you'll never need. 

You might also care to have a look at the stunning, aluminium-clad iMac from Apple. While this AIO starts from €1200, it does have several advantages over machines running Windows: 

1, It is not affected by viruses, Trojans or other of the malware commonly afflicting the Windows world, and you do not need to install antivirus software to remain free of this nuisance. In the unlikely event you download 'Mac-compatible' malware, it cannot be installed without direct action from the user. 

2, Phishing; You are just as vulnerable as with Windows. Naturally, your security depends on your Web-surfing habits, and whether you give personal details to strangers merely because they ask for them.

3, Apple's machines have a superior build quality and will last far longer than the more generic PC. 

4, The Mac OS is superior to Windows 7 (IMHO), is far easier to learn and is more intuitive, despite Microsoft's attempts to duplicate it in W7.

5, Despite rumours to the contrary, there is as much software available for the Mac OS as you would want. It comes with a built-in word processor, TextEdit. If you need a fancier one, there are many fully-featured applications available free, zilch, or even nuffink.

6, iLife comes free with all Macs, and allows creation of music, Web sites, videos (camera needed!). You can manage and edit all your photos and videos. AND, you have access to the world's largest supplier of music! Now go and spoil yourself. Mind your wallet, though, especially if children have access to the iTunes Store!

7, The big NO-No against the Mac always has been the relative drought of games, although this is not such a barrier as before, with the major games manufacturers releasing titles for the Mac even before they're released for Windows.

8, If you wish, you also can install your copy of Windows on your Mac and continue using your Windows software as before.

The entry-level iMac's specs are: 21.5 LED backlit display, 3.06GHz Intel CPU, 4GB RAM, 1 Firewire port, 4 USB2.0 ports, SDXC card slot, ATI Radeon HD 4670 graphics processor, built-in iSight camera, slot-loading 8x optical drive. 
With an external hard drive, you can create automatic backups of your entire hard disc or of any folder chosen by you. While the iMac is relatively meagre compared with what you can find in generic PCs, there is enough there to get you going, and stay going, without further outlay.

I feel the use of touch screens on a desk-top PC is based on a misplaced analogy with the technology as implemented on smart-phones. These different hardware formats are not comparable, and you soon would tire after extending your arm as a pointing device for a prolonged period. Bundled with all Macs is the new Magic Mouse, a touch-based mouse which dispenses with scroll balls and scroll wheels.  No more unclogging of your mouse! I have used a Mac for over ten years, and have this mouse and would not now use the traditional mouse with a scroll ball. If you are interested in an iMac, Apple deliver without charge from their Web-site by courier.


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## canicemcavoy (2 Aug 2010)

I'd have a few minor disagreements with iWill's points:



iWill said:


> I
> 3, Apple's machines have a superior build quality and will last far longer than the more generic PC.


 
Well, that depends on what your PC is made of. The following study from 2009 shows that Apple has the fourth highest quality of build, with PC manufacturers Asus, Sony and Toshiba on top:

http://www.squaretrade.com/htm/pdf/SquareTrade_laptop_reliability_1109.pdf



> 4, The Mac OS is superior to Windows 7 (IMHO), is far easier to learn and is more intuitive, despite Microsoft's attempts to duplicate it in W7.


 
This really is very much IMHO. I stayed in a hotel with a Mac in the room a while back, and trying to use it drove me nuts. I'd recommend anyone to try both.



> 5, Despite rumours to the contrary, there is as much software available for the Mac OS as you would want. It comes with a built-in word processor, TextEdit. If you need a fancier one, there are many fully-featured applications available free, zilch, or even nuffink.


 
However, there's still far more software for Windows than for Mac, especially freeware. And software written for previous versions of the OS will work on Windows 7 - by comparison, software written even by Apple themselves for previous OS versions won't run on Snow Leopard.

(More here - )



> 6, iLife comes free with all Macs, and allows creation of music, Web sites, videos (camera needed!). You can manage and edit all your photos and videos. AND, you have access to the world's largest suppli! Now go and spoil yourself. Mind your wallet, though, especially if children have er of musicaccess to the iTunes Store!


 
Windows has Windows Movie Maker and - wait for it - you can download music on Windows! In fact, even Mac users will rant about the unfriendliness of iTunes.



> with the major games manufacturers releasing titles for the Mac even before they're released for Windows.


 
Most major games are still unreleased on the Mac, and they certainly don't come out beforehand. On the Steam download distribution platform, for example, there are around 1,800 games for Windows, while there's 100 for Mac. The problem is that it's still far cheaper to build a Windows gaming machine than a Mac. And unlike a PC, where you can simply install a new graphics card after a few years, you can't do that with a Mac.



> Bundled with all Macs is the new Magic Mouse, a touch-based mouse which dispenses with scroll balls and scroll wheels.


 
Er, I don't think anyone, PC or Mac, has used a mouse with a wheel in 10 years. Do they even sell them any more?


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## iWill (2 Aug 2010)

*canicemcavoy:* A spirited defence of an OS acknowledged to be bedevilled by malware for the average user. Are you an IT technician or someone whose livelihood depends upon preserving the status quo? I know there are users of Windows who have absolutely no problems whatsoever, but these usually are confined to the _geek_ community and do not represent the majority of Windows users. 

In referring to build quality, I was saying Macs are put together with greater attention to detail than is usual with generic PCs. All components are matched and work together with the software to produce a supremely crafted, reliable machine. Certainly, any man-made objects, _Apple products included_, can malfunction. Customer satisfaction amongst Mac users is highest for both hardware and software. See this news item on a survey conducted by Forrester Research in 2009 - tech.fortune.cnn.com/2009/04/18/apple-only-good-dell-poor-and-very-poor/. There are several of these surveys published in Mac-centric sites but I will link to them so that I preserve at least some degree of impartiality! Naturally, there are customers who make purchasing decisions based on lowest common denominator values. These customers look at the initial price without considering TOC. Based on this criterion alone, Macs represent greater value.

I agree, the Mac OS interface is different from that of Windows and, for a casual user steeped in the Windows tradition, it can prove frustrating. But this usually is short-lived with persistent Mac use over a period of several days. Remember, most computer users navigate interface elements and keyboards by familiarity and muscle memory and will find it frustrating to switch between the two. But once the Mac file system is understood, most 'switchers' adopt speedily and acknowledge it the to be more intuitive interface.  

Certainly, there is far more software available for the Windows OS than for the Mac, but how many word processors, e-mail apps, Internet browsers, spreadsheet apps, database apps, image editors, graphics creators, video and music creators, and FTP apps does one need? I'm sure you are aware that, while there are a large number of excellent, well-made freeware apps available for Windows _and_ the Mac, _on Windows_, much freeware is unreliable and basically is a back door for malware.

As far as software written for previous Mac OS versions is concerned, you are under a huge misapprehension. For software written before 2000 for Mac OS9, an emulator was used to run it on the new OS X introduced in 2000, with no reduction in speed or functionality, and the software vendor did not need to to this. This situation remained until Apple adopted Intel CPUs in 2006. After this CPU change, any software written for the older OS could not be used on Intel Macs _unless it had been recompiled_ by the vendor to run under the new CPU architecture. Software written for OS X 10.0 (Cheetah) _by Apple, or any other vendor_ still works on OS X  10.5 (Leopard) and runs on Macs with PPC CPUs. Because OS X 10.6 (Snow Leopard) was rewritten to run only on Intel CPUs, software written for Mac OS versions prior to Snow Leopard runs on Intel Macs with an emulator but with a slight reduction in speed. So, to say that software written by Apple itself for older versions does not run on the current version, Snow Leopard, is, at best, misleading.

I'm pleased to see that _you_ know you can download music to your PC. But know also that many PC users doing this will be using iTunes. I use iTunes both for buying music and listening to it and do not find it at all unfriendly. Nor am I aware of other Mac users who find it so. I do know that Windows users find the Windows version of iTunes a real pain in the This post will be deleted if not edited to remove bad language, complain incessantly (but do they 'rant'?) about it.  Although both versions look similar, this may be due to the way Apple have implemented what is essentially  a Mac app to operate on the Windows OS. Personally, I find this to be sheer madness because this is the single piece of Apple software most used on non-Apple hardware, and you'd think Apple would want to make the experience as pleasant as possible for those customers. Wait, I'll say it for you; Apple are an arrogant company. 


> In fact, even Mac users will rant about the unfriendliness of iTunes.


While I do not answer for the behaviour of other Mac users, or for _your_ experience of these users, I hope you were not suggesting my previous post was a 'rant'. 

I'll give you this one: Because I do not play games on my Mac, I have little interest in them and do not know all that much about the industry. But I know that, while the range of games available for the Mac was not all that great several years ago, today, the range has increased considerably. My assertion that titles from the major manufacturers were released before those for Windows was mostly tongue-in-cheek, though not, hopefully., foot-in-mouth! If the games industry were to collapse tomorrow, I'd be none the wiser! 

Your assertion graphics cards are not available for the Mac is simply incorrect. As with software titles, there are many more GPUs available for WinTel machines, but to say this kind of peripheral is not available easily is sheer poppycock! A visit to a reputable vendor's site will prove my point.

Mouses? Mice? Nice. It's interesting you appear to avoid this issue. Is this because there is nothing in the WinTel world like Apple's touch-based mouse? I've seen fairly recent computers with wheeled mice, so they are not dead yet.

*Sad Note;* I cannot post a functioning link to the _Fortune_ news item above apparently because I still am regarded this site as a _baby_ poster!


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## canicemcavoy (2 Aug 2010)

iWill said:


> *canicemcavoy:* A spirited defence of an OS acknowledged to be bedevilled by malware for the average user. Are you an IT technician or someone whose livelihood depends upon preserving the status quo?


 
Oh goodness; someone whose very username proclaims their love of Apple now seems to think that anyone who like PCs _must_ be paid to do so.


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## d2x2 (3 Aug 2010)

iWill said:


> About the iMac from Apple
> 
> 1, It is not affected by viruses, Trojans or other of the malware commonly afflicting the Windows world, and you do not need to install antivirus software to remain free of this nuisance. In the unlikely event you download 'Mac-compatible' malware, it cannot be installed without direct action from the user.



That is quite true unless of course you use Apple software or connect your Apple computer to the Internet in which case you'll be interested Apple the new world leader in software insecurity as a reported by a security company. 

In Apple Macs, no crashes or viruses? you might learn that "To say that there is no malware (or viruses) for the Apple platform is demonstrably untrue," cue examples. 

Now also you might find it interesting that "it is Apple, not Microsoft, that holds the historical distinction of being the first computer to bring virus technology into the home with “Elk Cloner,” written by then 15-year-old Richard Skrenta in 1982." ()

Having said that if you prefer a white computer then Apple may be your best bet. However you will have to pay for software updates which are otherwise free with a Microsoft Windows-based PC. Apparently. 

To be fair to Apple it is true that they must be doing something right to have such a large fanbase willing to forgive its many many flaws and high price tags. 

iWill may question my credentials at some point that's why I included some external sources but a simple google search will give plenty more results. You've been warned.


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## iWill (3 Aug 2010)

*canicemcavoy;* Please answer this question; are you employed as an IT consultant, whose livelihood depends upon fixing a broken system, one which is virtually guaranteed to get just as broken soon again? I have this user-name for about ten years, long before Apple's iThings became ubiquitous. I do not 'love' Apple, and my user-name does not indicate otherwise. I do not possess, nor lust after, the latest Apple iThing. I use an Apple product simply because I believe it to be a better choice than the alternatives. This knowledge is based on enforced experience of these alternatives.

*d2x2;* I am aware of the _Ars Technica_ article putting Apple as the current leader in software insecurity. This article points out also that the report takes no consideration of the severity of these security flaws. This article continues with the information that many of these flaws are in third-party software such as Adobe's Flash (and Reader), which only these companies can fix, and that these flaws also are present in their Windows versions. This article is based on a report by security software vendor Secunia. Be aware that Trend Micro also is a security software vendor, and that It is one of the more lurid of these companies. All security software companies publish these 'horror reports' from time to time, for all OS platforms. Why? To scare users into buying their security software. I have been using a Mac for over ten years, have not installed security software, and have never had a malware infection. The motivation behind Trend Micro's Rik Ferguson article which should further be suspect because of its misleading title which refers to 'Macs crashing'. OS X does not crash (OS 9 crashed very often), and neither does Windows 7 (Windows versions earlier than Vista crashed often). This is an issue resolved by both Apple and Microsoft, and bringing it up is mere obfuscation. Individual applications on both platforms sometimes can crash, but this is far less an issue than the whole OS going down, requiring a restart. As for Rik Ferguson's Parthian shot, _'As regards the other one, a Google search for “Mac OS crash” yields over 3 million results…'_ If you google 'aliens', you get 32.900,000 results. I have yet to meet an alien. How many have you met?

If you actually read what I said - the Mac _is not affected by viruses, Trojans or other of the malware afflicting the Windows world_, you will see this means that malware which afflicts a Windows machine will have no affect on a Mac, because malware has to be written for that particular platform to be able to do its dirty deeds. I am not aware of any 'cross platform' malware. I did _not_ say there is _no_ malware out there which affects the Mac. It patently is obvious that there is. What you unhelpfully have failed to point out is that for malware, designed to affect the Mac, _to be effective_, it must actually be installed on the Mac _by the user_. The 'iWork Trojan' was hidden in pirated copies of iWork and Photoshop  downloaded from an FTP service. These downloaded applications were installed on about 20,000 Macs and the Trojan was installed by the pirated copy. Copies of these applications bought from normal outlets are not affected. So, certainly, there is malware out there which is targeted at Macs, but you must go to considerable lengths to become infected with it.



> 'it is Apple, not Microsoft, that holds the historical distinction of being the first computer to bring virus technology into the home with “Elk Cloner,” written by then 15-year-old Richard Skrenta in 1982.'


 True, the first known computer virus was targeted at an Apple computer. I believe it was distributed on a floppy disc because the Internet as we know it today didn't exist. But your presentation is misleading, simply because you have allowed yourself to be duped by _another_ software security 'expert' trying to flog his wares by suggesting there is an inherent fault in the Mac OS which allows this to happen. This 'expert'' fails to inform that this virus was targeted an an older Apple OS two years before the Mac was produced, and that malware can be installed on a Mac only by direct action by the user. This demonstrably is not so on the Windows OS.



> However you will have to pay for software updates which are otherwise free with a Microsoft Windows-based PC.


 Not true!  Just as with updates for the Windows OS (Service packs) updates to the Mac OS are free. So also are updates to Apple's Internet software, its iLife suite, and interim updates to iWork. As with updates on _your_ preferred platform, third-party software on the Mac also is updated for free. So, I still question your credentials, particularly because of the links you provide and which show you to be influenced a little bit too easily by the undeclared agenda of these sources.


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## The Pool Boy (3 Aug 2010)

Many thanks for the pros and cons of both Windows pc's and Apple pc's. I'm considering anything suitable and will weigh up each one.

I'd still like some input on my query re the digital tv tuner. Also, if I buy a digisender for my existing tv, does the new computer need a tuner to receive the signal from it.


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## iWill (3 Aug 2010)

I don't live in the Emerald Isle, but won't you need a licence to use your computer to receive television broadcasts? As for the channels you can receive, I would assume that depends upon the quality of both tuner card and reception.


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