# Minimum size of Toilet in new extension



## newirishman (10 Jan 2010)

Hi, I plan to put a downstairs toilet into my mid-50's terraced house.
I was wondering if there is any planning laws in terms of minimum size for it, to make them wheelchair accessible or so.
Reason for asking is that I might want to put a front extension in place facilitate this, which means I have to get planning permissions as far as I understand. 
Thanks a lot!


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## onq (10 Jan 2010)

Brief Preamble:

The building control act 2007 provides for a disability access certificate for certain buildings.
I spoke to Dun Laoghaire Rathdown County Council about thsi in December 2009.
This certificate doesn't appear to be up and running anywhere yet.

By the looks of it, this was in response to a survey carried out re the compliance or otherwise of new buildings in and around the country with Part M.
It is possible that if more new buildings had complied with Part M we wouldn't be saddled with this new legislation.
Its a bit like giving the Gardaí extra powers when they're not using the ones they already have.

Its a good way of looking like you've done something while actually doing nothing and just adding to the bureaucracy we all have to deal with day to day.
A bit like telling people you've "commissioned reports into flood risks" and "allocated money to deal with it".
Utterly useless unless something is done by competent people.

Or in your own case, where something may be done because of a person's own initiative - so, well done so far.

Toilet Sizes complying:

New houses and their compliance are covered in the TGD for Part M of the Building Regulations available here:
http://www.environ.ie/en/Publicatio...ng/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad,1655,en.pdf

Section 1b and Diagrams 13-16 refer and you should read through the document to get a feel for the intent of the framers.
If you have enough garden you can ramp up to the door for wheelchair access look at page 15 et seq for ramp sizes, gradients &1200 x 1200mm landings.

Look at Par 1.23 (a) and (b) P. 16 for front entrance door clear width required [775mm] and the threshold height [15mm].
If you have steps up from the road at the garden gate you could consider a chair lift.
Alternatively you could consider how you can transfer from a car parked near the front door to the house.

Hint: - make a car driveway with parking space at the level of the ground floor if you have sufficient front garden.
Be careful of raising the front garden to the ground floor height right beside the building as this may allow damp to get in.
Perhaps a form of Aco drain detail would be useful at the front door and a suitable planted/paved drained area just at the front wall.

Drainage may also need to be considered.
You should talk to your local authority about a dished path approach to the driveway.
Also ask whether they require you to obtain permission for a new entrance - perhaps at the same time as the front extension.

BTW,  if your terraced frontage has a restricted width, and local authorities may want you to respect the building line anyway, remember that you can locate the toilet anywhere that can be accessed on the ground floor - i.e. in a rear extension.
Thus you might only have to be concerned about getting the wheelchair in and around from the front door access point and could place the WC where you like.

If you are considering a rear extension you could keep the service spaces and WC in the middle of the house.
This will allow you to extend the rear rooms out to the light and air, as opposed to adding on the toilet facility and partly blocking the light and air.

The choice is yours.

HTH

ONQ

[broken link removed]


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## newirishman (10 Jan 2010)

ONQ,

Thanks a lot for you reply - however I think I was misunderstood: I don't have the need to built wheelchair accessible. I was only wondering if I have to (in general), or if there is any minimum size for the toilet (apart from big enough to fit in). 
Friend who bought houses built in recent years have huge (1.5x1.5 m) downstairs toilets, and I am wondering do I have built this big.
Also, does it matter if the doors open into the toilet or the other way?


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## onq (10 Jan 2010)

newirishman said:


> ONQ,
> 
> Thanks a lot for you reply


You're very welcome.


> - however I think I was misunderstood: I don't have the need to built wheelchair accessible. I was only wondering if I have to (in general), or if there is any minimum size for the toilet (apart from big enough to fit in).



Misunderstood?

You posted:
_"Hi, I plan to put a downstairs toilet into my mid-50's terraced house. I was wondering if there is any planning laws in terms of minimum size for it, *to make them wheelchair accessible* or so."_

I didn't assume you had a need for it - I advised *as if *you had a need for it 
There's little point giving bits and piece of advice on something as complex as this.
Without access into the house the provision of a wheelchair-accessible WC is of limited use.



> Friend who bought houses built in recent years have huge (1.5x1.5 m) downstairs toilets, and I am wondering do I have built this big.



If you look at P.2  of TGD F you'll see how the regulation applies and also P.22.
Your property was built long before the Building Control Act and Regulations came into play.
I doubt if there is any onus on you except personal desire for a larger cloakroom or wheelchair accessible WC.

The TGD document which was written in relation to new buildings & material alterations to existing buildings can guide the design of a wheelchair accessible WC.
With older, possibly smaller houses you need to get the best balance between accessibility and relatively limited floor space.
You will see the larger sizes shown in TGD F which work out around 1500mm square or so.
Smaller houses can put in smaller WCs.

P.22 clarifies this:
_"However, in the case of certain smaller dwellings,
WC compartments which, while providing for the
necessary clear space to facilitate for sideways
transfer, cannot fully accommodate a wheelchair or
do not facilitate the compartment door to be closed
with the wheelchair inside, may be acceptable. This
level of provision should only be considered where
the area of the storey where the WC is located is
less than 45 m2. Diagram 16 shows two examples of
possible layouts for such compartments."_



> Also, does it matter if the doors open into the toilet or the other way?



Again, this depends on the house, in particular the size of corridor and WC cubicle:
1500 x 2000mm can open in
1500 x 1500mm should really open out.

Look at the diagrams for the reason why - you need to be able to "park" the wheelchair to allow the door to swing shut if its open in.
Corridor -vs- clear opening widths should comply with the requirements of Par.s 1.27 - 1.30 on PP 16-17 and Dia 12.
You need to have a good read through thsi document before commencing work.
The body of law is the Building Control Act and Regulations, BTW, not the Planning Act and Regulations.

Mind you, in the year just before the Building Control Act and Regulations came in, planners [in Dublin at least] were conditioning things like the provision of adequately sized and proportioned lifts and level approaches to buildings as part of planning permissions - so there may be some overlap.

FWIW

ONQ

[broken link removed]


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## Superman (10 Jan 2010)

Provided you're just extending your existing house, no need for any min. size toilet, or any toilet at all if you don't feel like it.


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## newirishman (10 Jan 2010)

ONQ,

Thanks a lot again! 

Superman,

 I am not sure - I think you have to have a toilet if the property should be recognised as a suitable for living or working in it (unlike a garage for example).

Cheers
Newirishman.


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## Complainer (10 Jan 2010)

Superman said:


> Provided you're just extending your existing house, no need for any min. size toilet, or any toilet at all if you don't feel like it.


That's not true - The Part M regs apply to any 'material alteration' to the property, and the Part M TGD states 
"A WC should be provided at entry level or,
where there is no habitable room at this level, in the
storey containing the main living room. " and 
"In general, the size and layout of the bathroom or
WC compartment, and the positioning of the door,
should be such that a wheelchair can be fully
contained within the compartment and the door
closed with the wheelchair inside."


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## RKQ (11 Jan 2010)

This is an interesting question, as it is dependent on interpetting "material alteration". If you are not extending the property then you may not IMO be creating any "material alteration" to your exempted 1950 property.

It sounds like you wish to install a new ground floor wc under a stairs in an existing small room. Anything smaller than 1400mm x 1500mm may be difficult for anyone to use. 

Given the tradional floor area of a mid terrace house - 45m floor area - a door opening out might work well.

All new homes must provide a disabled acessable wc. This is not to say all refurbishments require one.


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## onq (11 Jan 2010)

The term material alteration is defined in:

S.I. No. 306/1991:

BUILDING REGULATIONS, 1991.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1991/en/si/0306.html

_Application to alterations and extensions.

10. (1) Subject to articles 6 and 7, these Regulations shall apply—

(a) to all works in connection with the material alteration or extension of an existing building (whether or not such building was erected before the operative day); and		
(b) to every part of an existing building as affected by a material alteration or extension but only to the extent of prohibiting any material alteration or extension which would cause a new or greater contravention, in the existing building, of any provision of these Regulations.		

(2) for the purposes of this article, "material alteration" means an alteration where the work, or any part of the work, carried out by itself would be subject to a requirement of Part A or B of the First Schedule._

=================================

Another definition is shown in:

S.I. No. 497 of 1997.

BUILDING REGULATIONS, 1997.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/si/0497.html

_11. (1) Subject to articles 3 and 8, these Regulations
apply—
(a) to all works in connection with the material alteration
or extension of a building, and
(b) to every part of a building affected by works
referred to in paragraph (a) but only to the
extent of prohibiting any works which would
cause a new or greater contravention, in such
building, of any provision of these Regulations.
(2) For the purposes of this article, ‘‘material alteration’’
means an alteration (other than a repair or renewal) where
the work, or any part of the work, carried out by itself would
be subject to a requirement of Part A or B of the Second
Schedule._

=================================

In both cases AFAICS Part A is Structure and Part B Fire.

Example 1: Part B:
Placing a kitchen  - a known source of fire - between the stairs and the front door would increase risk to first floor occupants.
You would be required to apply Part B to mitigate this, perhaps by;

installing alternative escape opening sections in the bedroom windows
placing fire resisting construction and a fire door between the stairs and the kitchen
introducing an upgraded fire detection and alarm system
agreeing a new route of escape to the rear garden with the fire officer [not a forgone conclusion]
or a combination of the above.

Example 2: Part A:
Creating a huge opening out to the front porch will weaken the walling and require a steel beam and supports.

The latter is fairly obvious [but you'd be surprised...] while the implications for fire safety are less obvious.

FWIW

ONQ.

[broken link removed]


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## Complainer (11 Jan 2010)

RKQ said:


> All new homes must provide a disabled acessable wc. This is not to say all refurbishments require one.


The Part M regs don't distinguish between new and refurbs in relation to bathroom provision.


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## Sconhome (12 Jan 2010)

Complainer said:


> That's not true - The Part M regs apply to any 'material alteration' to the property, and the Part M TGD states
> "A WC should be provided at entry level or,
> where there is no habitable room at this level, in the
> storey containing the main living room. " and
> ...



'Should' is a key word in this and all Building Regulations. Part M is open to interpretation and is subject to discretion in relation to compliance. I mean this in such that 'so far as is possible' Part M is to be followed. This can lead to economic and practical reasons being used to evade compliance. 

The point of fact being Part M compliant toilets in 2nd storey dulex apartments. Whats the point of being compliant?

There is an amendment expected to come into force next July, and is being hotly debated in the interim, in relation to all downstairs WC being upgraded to Part M compliant in the event that any change isbeing ade to a property ie if you are converting your attic, you will be obliged to Part M your downstairs WC.


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## onq (12 Jan 2010)

AFAICR the original reason behind the disabled access Part M provisions - including  accessible toilet -  were twofold, apart from the moral imperative to look after our most vulnerable/support the disadvantaged in society:

i)  so that people who were disabled would not be unfairly discriminated against in relation to the suitability/availability of new homes

ii) so that people who became disabled, either temporarily or permanently, would not be forced to move out of their home and thereby suffer economic hardship on top of their disability.

The smaller [45sqm] floor area option allows a degree of compliance to be achieved in may existing houses and WCs by opening out the door.

From P.2 of the TGD:

_"In general, Building Regulations apply to the construction
of *new buildings and to extensions and material
alterations to buildings*. In addition, certain parts of the
Regulations apply to existing buildings where a material
change of use takes place. Otherwise, Building
Regulations do not apply to buildings constructed prior to
1 June, 1992."_

The Building Regulations only apply to new builds, material alterations and material changes of use.
So far, to the best of my knowledge, there is no legal requirement requirement to retrofit disabled access WC's.

Even where a material alteration has occurred, the following qualification applies:

_"Existing Buildings
In the case of material alterations of existing buildings, the
adoption without modification of the guidance in this
document may not, in all circumstances, be appropriate. In
particular, the adherence to guidance, including codes,
standards or technical specifications, intended for
application to new work may be unduly restrictive or
impracticable. Buildings of architectural or historical
interest are especially likely to give rise to such
circumstances. In these situations, alternative approaches
based on the principles contained in the document may be
more relevant and should be considered."_

So even in relation to existing buildings there is no legal obligation to comply fully with Part M.
This qualification specifically mentions, but is not limited to "buildings of architectural or historical interest".

So on balance I would have to cast doubt on Complainer's comments above.
I think there are several distinctions drawn in the regulations and TGDs.
Re refurbs (a repair or renewal) S 11(2) of S.I. No. 497 of 1997 refers.

FWIW

ONQ

[broken link removed]


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## RKQ (12 Jan 2010)

Complainer said:


> The Part M regs don't distinguish between new and refurbs in relation to bathroom provision.


 
That because all buildings buit after July 1992 must comply with the Building Regulations. All buildings built before this date are exempt.

Is installing a w.c a "material alteration"? Its certainly not an extension. IMO this is a grey area open to interpedation and worth debating here to form a concensus.

Ideally all downstair wc in new homes should be TGD M compliant but to retro upgrade all existing wc is unfair & unnecessary IMO. Many wc understairs can not comply with TGD M and can not be upgraded easily to do so. Ground floor wc is very handy to have in any home.

As I said above we should try to ensure any new retro fit wc is TGD M compliant, as this is useful to all users.


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## RKQ (12 Jan 2010)

Sorry double post!


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## Complainer (12 Jan 2010)

RKQ said:


> Is installing a w.c a "material alteration"? Its certainly not an extension. IMO this is a grey area open to interpedation and worth debating here to form a concensus.


I'd guess that if you are putting in a downstairs WC, you would have a hard battle persuading an LA building control officer that this could not meet the minimum spec in the TGD-M.


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## RKQ (12 Jan 2010)

I would discuss it with any LA Building Control Officer, if it were to be constructed in an existing part of a house - hall, utility etc without extending the original 1950's home (or as existed in Dec 1991).

However I have re-read the OP's original post and as the OP is proposing to build a _new extension_ and the new wc is, I assume, to be part of this new build, then IMO the new wc _must comply fully with_ TGD M.


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