# Landlord Suing Tenent That Has No Lease Agreement



## Ireland.1 (18 Feb 2012)

Hi,

We would be more than greatful if somebody could briefly tell us were we stand in such an unusual situation :

A friend of my daughters took out a lease on a property some years ago. The friend began having difficulties paying the rent 

My daughter and her then partner moved in with their friend to help her make payments towards the monthly rent. 

Each month the friend would collect rent from my daughter and her partner, both whom presumed the rent was been passed onto the landlord.

Two years later, after my daughter and the friend moved out of the property she is now in receipt of a letter from the landlord's solicitors saying they are going to lodge legal proceedings against her for non payment of rent. 

The friend we have now learned was not passing payments to the landlord who resided out of the country. It seems he did not miss the payments not going into his account each month. This had been going on for quite some time.

My daughter never had an agreement with this landlord, neither did she have an agreement with her friend.

This really is a bolt out of the blue and we are unsure of what is going to become of it, but from what I am guessing - she does not have anything to fear in this lawsuit.

Any thoughts welcome please?


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## bacchus (19 Feb 2012)

Ireland.1 said:


> A friend of my daughters took out a lease on a property some years ago.



Landlord should deal with whoever signed the lease. I would ignore the letter from solicitor, and wait to be contacted by PRTB. 2 years is an awfull long time to start being chased for unpaid rent money.


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## mark1 (19 Feb 2012)

Does your daughter have receipts or did she have a rent book, Regardless of this even i would not think there is any way that she can be liable for this if she has not signed a lease or agreement


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## burmo (19 Feb 2012)

Absolutely sounds like your daughter is not liable, how can the landlord even prove they lived there?  Also, always get receipts for cash... always.


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## Ann1 (19 Feb 2012)

I'm just wondering if your daughter may have had a utility bill in her name...otherwise how would the solicitor have been able to make contact with her. If that is the case she may need to reply to the solicitor and explain the situation.


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## Ireland.1 (19 Jul 2012)

Ann, yes she held a utility bill in her name.

My apologies for not updating this thread.  Since my last post the  landlord has commenced legal proceedings and is chasing my daughter  hook, line and sinker all the way to the courts.  He has also tried to  get a judgement on her home which she prevented from happening by making  an attendence in the courts and lodging a defence.  This is causing  untoll stress for her as well as cost.

We are hoping the Judge on the day will understand.  Also the landlords  legal team have threatened her with a discovery order if she does not  disclose everything she knows.  You really couldn't make this up.


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## Ireland.1 (19 Jul 2012)

The person who signed the lease is no longer living in Ireland.  

Daughter said she had no inkling whatsoever that the rent was not being passed over to the LL.  The friend would collect the rent each month and would supposedly go to the bank to transfer funds to the landlord who was residing overseas.  She paid a total of €12,000 over two years which was paid in cash.  

The landlord is suing her for €26,400 plus costs.


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## Ireland.1 (19 Jul 2012)

I agree Cashier.  Hopefully the Judge will see the error in all of this.  

It came to a final crunch when LL tried to get a judgement against her if she didn't engage with him.  He almost got it.  

He is using one of the most prestigious legal outfits in the country and there seems to be no stopping him.  She cannot compete with him and the seemingly endless pit of money he has at his disposal.

She has now been threatened with a discovery order if she does not divulge were the friend is now living etc or hand over any paperwork she may have.


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## facetious (19 Jul 2012)

IN MY OPINION (I am not a judge, not qualified in any way in the legal profession).

Was the person (the lessee) who signed the lease also living in the property? If he was, then your daughter and partner could only have been licensees/lodgers of the the lessee and had no contract with the landlord of the property.

However, if the lessee moved out of the property then those remaining would become tenants of the lessee (he becomes a head tenant) who would therefore have sub-let the property to them. If no lease was signed, the proof that a lease existed is in the fact that the rent was paid to the lessee with whom a verbal contract would therefore exist and they would have a Part 4 tenancy which should have been registered with the PRTB. However, the contract to to pay the rent rests entirely with the lessee and not with the sub tenants. 

Again, most leases have a clause which stipulates that sub-letting is prohibited without the express permission in writing by the landlord.


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## Ann1 (19 Jul 2012)

Ireland.1 said:


> She has now been threatened with a discovery order if she does not divulge were the friend is now living etc or hand over any paperwork she may have.



Why does your daughter need to be threatened with a discovery order??
This so called friend took your daughter's hard earned cash every month and failed to pay the rent with it but instead put it in her own pocket...in effect she was stealing from your daughter. In my opinion your daughter should give any information she has on this person to the landlord.


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## mercman (19 Jul 2012)

Ireland.1 said:


> He is using one of the most prestigious legal outfits in the country and there seems to be no stopping him.  She cannot compete with him and the seemingly endless pit of money he has at his disposal.



And you really can't blame him. But it really is his own fault as much as it is the OPs daughter. The landlord should  have ept on top of the rents -- a bare fat of owning property. But I would say that your daughter wil be obliged to furnish the name of the friend who took off with the money or in fact face the music with having a judgement issued against her. The fact that she had a utility bill in her name is a fact that she was there. Whilst not a pretty circumstance if the LL is using a top notch legal firm, she had better be prepared for the Courts to make an example of her.

As a Landlord, I don't have too much sympathy for either party in this case.


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## Ireland.1 (12 Aug 2012)

Hi Facetious, yes the leasee was present at the property for the whole duration.  The LL's legal team are trying to insinuate that she may not have been present.



mercman said:


> Whilst not a pretty circumstance if the LL is using a top notch legal firm, she had better be prepared for the Courts to make an example of her.



Hi Mercman, if the Courts were to make an example of her, what would such an outcome be?


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## facetious (12 Aug 2012)

IMHO, I feel that we are not getting the full picture here.

Your daughter has a "friend" who seems to have swindled her and she wants to protect her friend by not disclosing where she is (if she knows, that is). Otherwise, it may be treated as collusion between the two.

Why did your daughter have a utility bill in her name?

Has your daughter any proof that she paid "the friend"? 

I am not sure how this situation is going to the courts before a claim with the PRTB unless the amount being claimed is in excess of 25,000 euros (I may have the incorrect amount for a case to by-pass the PRTB).


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## Bronte (14 Aug 2012)

Was your daughter registered with the PRTB? If not then it might help in your defence. 

You do not have to have a lease in writing. I have no written leases with any of my tenant's but there are still legally my tenants and I am their landlord. 

The fact she had a utility bill in her name proves she was staying there. How come the utility was not in the friend's name? 

The landlord was most negligent in not noticing the non payment of rent. Your daugher was negligent in not ensuring that the rent was being paid to the landlord. It looks like her 'friend' diddled her. Even if she did give up the foreign address of this person the landlord is surely not going to try and sue someone in a foreign jurisdiction. You'r daugher is an easier mark, and to boot is a property owner and no doubt has an income. 

What do think the court is going to think when your daugher is making it difficult to get information by forcing them to get discovery orders (more costs). It's a right mess. 

Top notch legal firms might cost your daugher more than the actual rent. This landlord means business and your daugher better have all her ducks in a row.

Factious make a very valid point. I thought a landord was forced to go to the PRTB in the first instance, they cannot surely just go directly to court. The whole point of the PRTB is that this is legally the first port of call and the top notch legal firm should know this. But they have apparently already been to court. Interesting case,


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## bugler (14 Aug 2012)

A lot of interesting points have been raised here by the other posters. I'd also be most interested in hearing updates on this, particularly regarding the seeming ability of the landlord to progress this case to the courts relatively quickly.

There appears to be very little linking the "tenant" (only using the term loosely, as it's likely she was not a tenant at all) to the landlord.

How did the landlord get her new address?


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## Ireland.1 (14 Aug 2012)

Well the saga continues and she is still in receipt of solicitors letters demanding answers.  She has given them a forwarding address to the so called friend, who is residing overseas.  The LL knows he is on a road to nowhere by chasing her so he is insistent my daughter pays up the money that was not passed onto him.  The discovery order will yield no further results as there is no more she can tell them.  She has made this clear to them but they insist that she better be telling them everything she knows or she will also be lobbed with the D.O costs. 

Bugler, we are unsure how he got her address.

Bronte, she wasn't registered with the PRTB.  I have no idea why the utility bill was put into her name.  

Any inkling were this may all lead?


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## JMJR (14 Aug 2012)

Hi, I am interested in the outcome of this one too so please keep updating.

One question I have is: Has your daughter spoken to the PRTB about this?

Additional thoughts. Why did not LL become aware of rent shortfall sooner as presumably LL would have had to declare income to IE Revenue for taxation purposes. 
Isnt there a requirement that rent paid to a non resident LL is subject to witholding tax and must be paid by tenant direct to IE Revenue. 
Has there been talk of Revenue involvement? Maybe you could involve them?

hese may be angles that your lawyer might follow up on.


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## JMJR (14 Aug 2012)

Bronte said:


> ...........
> _
> The fact she had a utility bill in her name proves she was staying there._ How come the utility was not in the friend's name?
> ........................................




I would say that this statement is not true, in a legal sense. Having a name on a utility bill does not 'prove' anything, except that the named person will cover liability to the utility or service provider.


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## Ireland.1 (15 Aug 2012)

JMJR said:


> Hi, I am interested in the outcome of this one too so please keep updating.
> 
> One question I have is: Has your daughter spoken to the PRTB about this?
> 
> ...



Hi JMJR, 

No, she hasn't spoken to PRTB.  She hasn't spoken to anybody and cannot afford to engage a solicitor.  She is conversing back and fort with the LL's solicitor who is running rings around her.  It's starting to cost a small packet with registered post and travel last month to the court.

The LL has an extensive property portfolio and uses agents to collect rents on his behalf.  Not one of the agents ever came near the property at any point and never bothered once to find out who was or wasn't paying rent.   
A revenue official did arrive at the property once to see who was resident???  This is probably how they were able to locate my daughter 2 years later???


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## Ireland.1 (15 Aug 2012)

Bronte said:


> You do not have to have a lease in writing. I have no written leases with any of my tenant's but there are still legally my tenants and I am their landlord.



I was totally unaware of this.  I thought you had to have a lease in writing.


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## Seagull (15 Aug 2012)

I think you probably need to get proper legal advice. The issue is whether your daughter would be viewed as a sub-tenant of her friend, or a tenant of the landlord. If she's a sub-tenant, then she's paid her rent, and that's the end of it.

It might be worth telling the landlord that the correct avenue for him to follow is PRTB, and that any further correspondence will be ignored unless they follow corrrect process.


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## Marigold77 (17 Aug 2012)

She needs to call Thrseshold and or PTRB for expert advice


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## Alexmartin (19 Aug 2012)

Get proper legal advice.
But in my opinion the landlord has a case here.

Actually, I know its nothing to do with your case, but  I wouldnt be surprised to see landlords in future chasing people who leave owing them more than the deposit, for the full amount in future.  At the moment most leave it at just keeping the deposit.  But i'm seeing a lot of landlord now fight instead of accepting losses.


The PRTB or Threshold are not relevant in your daughters case either.  Talk to a solicitor, not the internet.


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