# taken to court over fees



## rion

Hi I would like some advice for my partner he owns a house which has management fees he is unable to pay these fees as he is struggling to pay the mortgage and has fallen behind on this..  

He owes 1000 euro to management company who have been on the phone to him he explained that he is putting every penny he has in the mortgage trying to hold on to the house and has none left to pay management fee their reply was thats fine we will see you in court..  Can anyone give me some advice on what he should do about this situation..  Many thanks!!


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## shesells

Unfortunately your partner is legally liable to pay his fees..this is what he signed up to at purchase. The fees are what keep the management company going, which is why they would be taking legal action to recover them. Management companies rarely have the leeway in their budgets that the banks do so while it may seem heartless, pursuing all owners for fees is necessary.

As to what they can achieve in court...they can't get blood out of a stone...so a judgement mortgage against the property may be the most the MC can get. Having said that they would be entitled to withdraw services from your partner's property. Luckily it's a house so they shouldn't be able to withdraw insurance from the property, if it was an apartment this could have had implications for your partner's mortgage (the banks require insurance to be in place).


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## computerman

rion, your partner will end up going to court. however its not all bad. It will probarbly be better to go to court as you can then draw a line in the sand over the issue.

However there a number of steps that you can take to counter argue your case. I am reluctant to publish them as Management Companies (Agents) read this forum as well as "us punters".
If you want I will PM you with the info.


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## ontour

computerman said:


> rion, your partner will end up going to court. however its not all bad. It will probarbly be better to go to court as you can then draw a line in the sand over the issue.



The only way to draw a line in the sand regarding an inability to pay management fees is to sell the property so you will not have the fee anymore.  Apart from that the overdue fees will have to be paid and there is probably legal and admin costs and the fees for the next year will also fall due and need to be paid.



computerman said:


> However there a number of steps that you can take to counter argue your case. I am reluctant to publish them as Management Companies (Agents) read this forum as well as "us punters".



The person who is liable for the fee is a member/ owner of the management company.  There is nothing from the OPs post to indicate that there is any reason that the fees should not be paid.  There are serious implications to not paying management fees so the OP should consider whether it would make sense to pay less to mortgage provider.


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## computerman

computerman said:


> rion, your partner will end up going to court. however its not all bad. It will probarbly be better to go to court as you can then draw a line in the sand over the issue.
> 
> However there a number of steps that you can take to counter argue your case. I am reluctant to publish them as Management Companies (Agents) read this forum as well as "us punters".
> If you want I will PM you with the info.


 
 I reiterate and repeat my original post.


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## GarBow

Why would you give people pointers to avoid paying management fees?? So that the rest of the owners in the development can support them??


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## Complainer

GarBow said:


> Why would you give people pointers to avoid paying management fees?? So that the rest of the owners in the development can support them??


Why are there shiny offices full of highly-paid professionals in Dublin full of people who are paid to give people pointers to avoid paying tax? So that the rest of the country can support them??


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## JoeRoberts

Complainer said:


> Why are there shiny offices full of highly-paid professionals in Dublin full of people who are paid to give people pointers to avoid paying tax? So that the rest of the country can support them??


 


Reducing your tax bill by utilising good legal advice is not breaking the law though.


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## shesells

As an owner and director of a home in a managed development I am horrified at the suggestion that anyone can avoid paying management fees. Without these fees basic services cannot be provided. We work hard to keep fees as low as possible and every year since the owners took over in 2005, our fees have come down. We have to pursue owners that don't pay, that money is what keeps our buildings insured, our refuse collected and common areas maintained.


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## computerman

I was not suggesting that the op not pay his management fees. I was going to explain how to keep the court costs to a minium and in the course of doing so get the management agent to reconsider court in the first place.

Dont be reading into things that are not there.


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## GarBow

"It will probarbly be better to go to court as you can then draw a line in the sand over the issue."

"I was going to explain how to keep the court costs to a minium and in the course of doing so get the management agent to reconsider court in the first place."

Which is it?


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## Bronte

JoeRoberts said:


> Reducing your tax bill by utilising good legal advice is not breaking the law though.


 

It's not a tax bill though is it?  And if the OP doesn't pay the other people in the development will have to contribute more.


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## capnhand

Hi

Just to get back to the question that the OP has.

If you could see yourself to making even a small contribution to the charges this may be enough to stop court action. It is by saying that you cannot pay anything that will make the option of court acton more likely.

If there is any legal costs incurred they will most likely be added to your bill and the fact that there is unpaid management fees is likely to be an issue when it comes to selling the house. So you cannot get away without paying them in the long run.

So I suggest that you come to an arrangement to pay the fees even if just a very small amount (even say €50 per month) as this token payment may be enough.

Hope this helps and good luck.

Kind Regards

capnhand


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## zenga

rion said:


> Hi I would like some advice for my partner he owns a house which has management fees he is unable to pay these fees as he is struggling to pay the mortgage and has fallen behind on this..
> 
> He owes 1000 euro to management company who have been on the phone to him he explained that he is putting every penny he has in the mortgage trying to hold on to the house and has none left to pay management fee their reply was thats fine we will see you in court.. Can anyone give me some advice on what he should do about this situation.. Many thanks!!


 
The fact is your partner needs to come up with a plan. If he comes up with a plan to pay the service charge in a reasonable space of time it would look good if it ever did go to court and it is reasonable to expect the management company to accept the offer.

It would be irresponsible of the management company to let your partner drift into arrears which he may never be able to pay and would be wholly unfair to the other owners.

Take the annual service charge, divide by 12 to get the monthly repayment and that is the minimum any management company should accept.


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## Lilybear

I am wondering if anyone here can help or advise me. I have an apartment and a management company. For the first 2 years I paid the fees but they never did anything they said they were going to do with regard to maintaining the building etc. So after begging for months on end I finally gave up and wrote to them and told them that I felt they were in breach of contract and I would no longer pay until they fulfilled their terms. they are now gone and a new management company have been brought in. They are doing a great job and I have been happy to pay them so far. However they are looking for the arrears on my account. But i said I would not pay them as I was not paying for a service I was not provided. i have now been sent a court date.... do I stand a chance of fighting my case???


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## 44brendan

Lilybear said:


> do I stand a chance of fighting my case???


 
Yes of course you do. A contract is a 2 way agreement. In return for the fees paid by you the management company agreed to provide a certain level of service. If they failed to provide that service then they are also in brech of the agreement. However unless they failed to honour any of the terms of the contract you would have been expected to pay some funds towards whatever portion of service was provided. 
Your best option is to write to the new company outlining specifically where the previous company failed to provide the level of service contracted. Ideally offer to pay a sum of money that you consider to be appropriate to cover the services that were provided. Hopefully that should result in an amicable solution.


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## Lilybear

Hi 44Brendan,

I'm afraid at the time I did offer this ( this is going on 3 years now) I offered to pay for bins and insurance and lighting as these services were provided to me. They sent a debt collector to me and I made a payment plan with him and agreed that I would honour this for 3 months and in those 3 months I would like the other terms met such as window cleaning, building cleaning, repairs etc. I paid by DD for 3 months and then after nothing was done I contacted the debt collector and told him i was cancelling the DD. He said he could see I had tried all aspects and that he could not fault me and would pass on the message. 3 weeks later that company were gone and a new one elected. It appears however that alll my paperwork etc has been "lost" although I have copies of some I dont have copies of all. I dont mind paying the arrears on what services I did get but I just cant get my head around the fact that I would have to pay all. I am very worried as if this does not go my way I will also end up with the massive court expenses.


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## 44brendan

As I would see it you have made a very reasonable attempt to deal appropriately with the previous management company. Given the circumstances as you have outlined them Im sure that provided that the new company adopt a reasonable approach you should not be overly concerned. Even if a case is taken to Court you can offer a reasonable defense. Write to the new company and set out the circumstances as you have outlined. No need to mention that you don't have exact records of what you paid or agreed. Their own records are unlikely to be complete. Offer to pay them whatever portion of arrears you think is reasonable and I'm reasonably sure that they will not progress any action against you.


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## jdwex

The Management Company has not changed, they have employed new Managing Agents.


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## Lilybear

Sorry jewex, you are correct... my mistake in typing. I have discussed these details with the new agents and they are still saying they want all the arrears...so it looks like I may just have to take my chances in court. does anyone know if there is and ombudsman for management agents or a commitee as such as I would like to go in as prepared as possible.


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## 44brendan

Discussions are not enough. You need to put everything in writing as per my previous post and send it to them by registered mail. If its in writing it can be produced in Court (if necessary) as evidence of your approach and willingness to reach an amicable solution. If not in writing its your word against theirs.


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## GarBow

If every member of the management company were to witholold fees, where do people expect the funds to come from in order to carry out the works, prior to the same people deciding they are satisfied works have been carried out and decide to start paying again.

It's a vicious circle. Why should fee paying members support the company until you are happy that it is performing?

Witholding fees is *never* the answer or incentive for MCs to improve. It can only cause detrement to the MC.

If you have a badly performing MA, the only action to take is to get involved and put pressure on the directors of the MC to take control.


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## ontour

Lilybear said:


> I finally gave up and wrote to them and told them that I felt they were in breach of contract and I would no longer pay until they fulfilled their terms.



Were there specific terms in your purchase contract that they did not fulfill?  Usually the details of the maintenance work are part of the annual budget cycle.  Have you received professional advice that has determined that you can prove a breach of contract? 



Lilybear said:


> However they are looking for the arrears on my account. But i said I would not pay them as I was not paying for a service I was not provided. i have now been sent a court date.... do I stand a chance of fighting my case???



You are not paying for a service when you pay your management fees.  You are contributing to a budget that is then apportioned to cover insurance, cleaning, management agent, admin, sinking fund etc.  If maintenance work was not done then money was not spent on it.  Money was spent on something and even if some was wasted, everyone shares the cost of that waste.  People can not select to opt out until some other owner decides to volunteer their time to resolve the issues.


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## jdwex

Lilybear said:


> Sorry jewex, you are correct... my mistake in typing. I have discussed these details with the new agents and they are still saying they want all the arrears...so it looks like I may just have to take my chances in court. does anyone know if there is and ombudsman for management agents or a commitee as such as I would like to go in as prepared as possible.



You know that the managing company is made up of all the owners? The " agents" are acting for the management company in trying to recover the arrears. Did you ever check the accounts to see what the money had been spent on? Did you ever go to an AGM to question the directors of the management company.

The best you can hope for is an order to pay the arrears in installments.


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## Lilybear

jdwex: I did go to all the AGM's, unfortunetly the turn out was always  very bad as most people have their apartments rented out. The last one  there was a total of 2 people there including myself. In reviewing their  acconts every year I queried the costs window cleaning ( never done)  cleaning expenses ( only done 2-3 months of the year) their own fee (  increased every year even though we are in a recession most costs are  drpping to be more competitive) admin fee's and postal charges even  though I only get 1 letter a year ( the notice of AGM and accounts print  out) I did query these but its hard to fight when their are 5 people  sitting on a panel and i'm sitting alone querying.  

44Brendan- I have put it in writing to them but infortunelty as they  have no record of any of my complaints or letters etc they still want to  pursue the arrears.

Garbow- I assure you I am the type of person who has a tv license and  would never ignore a bill due. I did pay them for two years while  complaining about their sevices, the lack of cleaning, the lack of basic  things such as maintaining the fire doors etc. But at what point can we  make a stand? at what point do I have the right to not waste my money.  At one point I had to pay a private electrician to come in to replace a  bulb on the landing which i had been requesting to have replaced for  months...the invoice was never reimbursed. I do understand that other  people would be paying but if they are not turning up to the AGM's to  even query their bill or complain about lack of services...then where do  i stand??

On tour- as far as I am aware ( and this is probably where my whole  argument will fall apart) I was paying my fees to have my building kept  clean, the bins emptied, electricity, common area maintenace etc etc.  However not all was being done. This is why after several complaints etc  I noted to them that I would pay for the services I was recieving and  not the ones which just seemed to be empty promises. I had spent 2 years  writing to them and at that point I just couldnt take it anymore. 

Although I feel I have an answer to all queries I also feel less and  less assured of my standing now..... I just cant bring myself to face  the fact that I could walk away paying them when they werent honest and  they didnt fulfil their responsibilites no matter how much I begged  them...it makes me sad.


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## jdwex

Lilybear said:


> jdwex: I did go to all the AGM's, unfortunetly the turn out was always  very bad as most people have their apartments rented out. The last one  there was a total of 2 people there including myself. In reviewing their  acconts every year I queried the costs window cleaning ( never done)  cleaning expenses ( only done 2-3 months of the year) their own fee (  increased every year even though we are in a recession most costs are  drpping to be more competitive) admin fee's and postal charges even  though I only get 1 letter a year ( the notice of AGM and accounts print  out) I did query these but its hard to fight when their are 5 people  sitting on a panel and i'm sitting alone querying.



Who are the five people at the top people? Are they all owners?


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## Lilybear

no the "board" as they call themselves. the accountant, the auditor, the point of contact, a member of the developers and an unknown person..


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## jdwex

Lilybear said:


> no the "board" as they call themselves. the accountant, the auditor, the point of contact, a member of the developers and an unknown person..


You should ask whether the management company are in compliance with
[broken link removed]
, but it won't help you in this case


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## Lilybear

Thanks for the advice jdwex. Well I've an appointment with a solicitor tomorrow morning to explain my case and see if Im going to get cruxified or not so I shall keep you posted. I'll also post any advice he gives me on dealing with MC and maybe it will help someone else going forward. fingers and toes crossed.


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## shesells

You said you attended AGMS, where approval of the budget is a mandatory agenda item. So you approved the budget and then refused to pay your contracted share?

It can be frustrating to see developments being badly mismanaged...the only way to deal with it is to put yourself forward as a director of the MC, make the development a better place and protect your investment. You can't be a director if you are not a full member of the MC which you won't be with arrears on your account.


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## Lilybear

The budget needed to be approved?? This is strange as I dont remember this ever happening. They would go through the accounts which we had been sent before hand with notice of the AGM and discuss ( pass off) any queries reaised and then go on to notices such as oh we are fixing such and such or oh we are looking into a new bin contractor etc. but that would be it. the attendees could then raise any issues we had but I never remember being asked for any approval??


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## markpb

shesells said:


> You said you attended AGMS, where approval of the budget is a mandatory agenda item.



This is only a new requirement since March 2011 - it wasn't needed before.


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## shesells

We have always done it at ours - 7 years now


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## Lilybear

Well I was at my solicitor this morning and he said that its a civil matter. that at the end of the day its the judges discretion. That there are hundreds of these cases coming up every week in courts. He said that i signed a contract with them and it does merely fall down to who breached contract first. the best out come I can hope for is to be billed for the services which I did receive and have to pay for them  ( which I have always been happy to do and did keep saying this to them in my letters that I would pay for bins, esb and insurance) if I can prove that they did not provide the other things which they were contracted to do those fees will either be dismissed or else it will be that they will have a period of time to complete and maintain them and then I will have to make an agreement to settle those bill... 9 again which I will do and would be happy to do as who wouldnt be happy to pay for a service that they are in fact recieving) ..well we'll see how it goes in court and I shall keep you all posted but thanks for all your help.


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## markpb

Lilybear said:


> if I can prove that they did not provide the other things which they were contracted to do those fees will either be dismissed or else it will be that they will have a period of time to complete and maintain them and then I will have to make an agreement to settle those bill...



I would dream of arguing with a solicitor but if you check your lease agreement, you'll probably find very little detail about what your management company *must* do other than insure the common areas. Everything else is a nice to have but not contractually binding.

Also, the solicitors for the management company should, and probably will, point out that services must be paid for in advance. If you didn't pay for them, they can't possibly be expected to provide them.


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## 44brendan

As per my initial advice and despite all the hyperbole this is a fairly simple issue of contract law. If you sign a contract for a specific service or services you are obliged to pay the agreed annual fee. However you are also entitled to an adequate level of service in return for that fee. In this case you have indicated that you are not satisfied with the level of service received and are prepared to offer a reduced fee commiserate with the reduced level of service. If the other pary disputes this then the issue is whether you were provided with an acceptable service in accordance with the terms of the contract. A judge will base his decision on the merits of the case and based on the information as stated by you in your posts I think you have a good chance of a successful outcome.


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## ontour

Lilybear,  It reads like you were given stock answers that have very little insight in to the complexities if living in 'managed' developments.  I am amazed to hear that there are hundreds of cases coming up in the courts between management companies and their members every week, I must try to dig around for some statistics.

Did the solicitor review your contract?  Did the solicitor determine specific non-performance clause on the side of the management company?

I would happily be ready to be corrected if legally members of management companies can take an 'a la carte' approach to the services.  The contracts that are assigned specify a share of a budget.  Even if they blow the budget on a gold hand rail in one of the other blocks - you are still liable for your share.

It would appear that you are taking a professional approach to this but I fear that you are being let down by the people that were in charge of providing a service and possibly by those giving you advise now.

If you go to court you may be liable for legal fees, you may be liable for interest on overdue fees etc etc.  Did you legal advice indicate what the potential exposure is to you of going to court?

One thing to consider may be to agree to pay the outstanding charges on a staggered basis if they waive any interest / penalties  / legal costs.


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## jdwex

Just a thought, if an owner was given a reduced fee because the judge decreed all the contracted services were not supplied, should it not be open to the management company to apply a credit of the same amount to all the other owners who did not receive the services paid for (citing Management Co. Vs Owner).

Of course it would really be a zero sum game


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## thefridge05

God i love hearing all these stories, Management companies are a joke. I live in an apartment but its not an apartment block and it has its own front door(its only a 2 story,1 below and mine)There are houses all around the apartments and what gets me is the apartment owners have to pay for window/gutter cleaning once a year, we have to pay for the grass to be cut and little small shrubbery looked after, which is a mess.

Why should I pay to have that done when I can clean my own gutters and windows and the grass area is for all the houses too. I have paid 1000 this week as I was in major arrears and have agreed 20 per week. I am currently unemployed and its gonna be hard.
They have added 570 in additional fees as I was in arrears which i am fighting, as they said they sent me a letter I never recieved (it went to my parents house). They are saying i am obligated to tell them if my address changes, but as far as I am concerned they won't be getting it.

I am sorry I didn't go to court.


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## Lilybear

44Brendan- Gosh i hope yuor right.. Im getting myself in a right state now that the date is approaching..... next tuesday... I've never been inside a court room in my life so I am finding this really daunting.

Ontour- I do agree with you and feel you are right about being let down by the MC. The solicitor seemed very nice and tried to break everything down for me in simple terms. he did say that as also being charged their court fees aswell was a matter for the judge. The judge could wave them or tell me I have to pay them aswell. But either way its not as if they could demand the money from me within a week. That an agreement would have to be made if this does not rule in my favour. He did say that as Im 7 month pregnant and going on unpaid maternity leave and still paying the new management agents 170+ per month at present ( as noted above they are actually doing a good job, its the old agents I had issue with) that it would probably be reviewed again in a year maybe or when I return to work. He did say though that what is going in my favour is the fact that I in serveral letter agreed to pay them for the services that I was in fact being provided. that I requested bank details several times to do this. But sure......... gosh knows hows this will turn out on the day. 

Jdwex- jeez Im not too sure at all how that would work. I assume maybe no... Im learning at the minute that whatever way the most money can be made is the way tats usually applied.

Thefridge05- I feel for you I really do. its hard but I at the same time envy you that you are being billed for things you are getting. If I was to send you a copy of my last set of accounts and you were to come and visit me you would pee yourself laughing at me and tell me to get a tattoo of "muppet" written on my forehead. I live in a small block of 9 apartments 3 on each floor. there is a block a couple of meters behind my building. On their second floor through 2 sets of locked doors there is a small concrete common area with 2 benchs and 3 coniferous tress. This common area has actually been locked for 3 years due to a pigeon poop and health issue. Even if it wasnt locked off to the public I have no access to that building or to the locked doors. On my accounts I still get billed € 5965 a year for maintance to common area garden. They call the concrete jungle with 3 christmas trees a garden and bill me nearly € 6 a year to keep the door locked????? 

its like easy money to them.

I'll let ye know how I get on on Tuesday and hopefully I'll have good news. i would like to point out though that I do not advise anyone for any reason not to pay their fee's . It is true that the MC cannot continue unless the fee's are paid. I feel my case is different and isolated as I didnt just stop paying i spent 2 years paying and then 3 years begging for work to be done and at each step of the way agreed to pay if even 1 small thing was accomplished by them. And with our new agents with them carrying out the work ( in fairness trying to catch up) I have set up and paid a DD to them with no issue.


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## ontour

Lilybear said:


> ....( as noted above they are actually doing a good job, its the old agents I had issue with) that it would probably be reviewed again in a year maybe or when I return to work. He did say though that what is going in my favour is the fact that I in serveral letter agreed to pay them for the services that I was in fact being provided.



Even though the old agent was the major part of the problem, your issue is with the management company as you owe them the money.  If the judge understands the detail of management companies, they will probably say to have to pay all the arrears although there is probably a very good chance that the judge will not understand management companies and rule in your favour.  In that case the outstanding charge and legal costs will be shared by all the owners so you will still end up paying a little bit.  If you do win you have to hope that all the other residents don't follow suit and look for equivalent refunds.  The money will be coming out of one pocket to go in to the other with the addition of significant legal, agent, accounting costs.

If you lose the monies owed is unlikely to be completely deferred although the installments that you are required to pay may be very small given your circumstances.  It would be useful to have a statement of your household means for the coming year so that if a judge looked for the money now or in larger installments you have the information to correct that immediately.


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## shesells

Any update?


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