# In shock over solicitor's quotation



## Sav H

Hi

I am in the process of selling my house, and buying another. Contracts just about to be signed on both (next few days) - have been asking solicitor for quotation for about 6 weeks, finally received it yesterday - solicitor is looking for 1% of sale price, and 1% of purchase price plus vat plus costs. This equates to at least 16,000 Euro!!! I am not rich - am cleaned out financially after recent separation. This firm of solicitors dealt with my separation, that's why I am still with them. I am not sure if I am tied into using them, but feel it would be very tricky to change solicitors at this late stage. I rang around solicitors from Golden Pages yesterday, and got a quote for selling and buying of 2000 Euro plus vat plus costs. I don't know what line to take with current solicitor - should I tell them to put a hold on contracts being signed, until the relevant partner talks to me about fees? I don't want to jeopardise my sale or purchase either....

Any advice?

Sav H


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## RainyDay

The 'lesson learnt' for you and all posters is not to proceed without having agreed a price up front.

The bad news is that it will be difficult (but not impossible) to switch solicitors at this stage. It will cost you some time delays, and you'll have to pay your current solicitor for work done to date. If you're not happy with his charge for this, you can refer this to the Taxing Master for review.

The good news is that you should certainly play hardball at this stage, and make it clear that you are prepared to switch if needs be. He had a legal obligation (iirc) to provide you with a written quote up front (Section 68 letter?), so he's screwed up on that. Tell him his quote is way out of line with the market rates - 1% fees went out with flares & bell-bottoms, and that you'll be referring his quote to the Taxing Master if it doesn't come way down.

So it's really down to how well you can haggle... 

Is there a chance that he lost money on your seperation work which he is now trying to recoup?


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## oulu

Simple tell him he did not give quote when you asked and therefore you looked elsewhere and reliased he is over charging you by way to much and you are prepared to move to new solicitor unless he charges the same, dont think he is in a standing that you cant talk to him those days are long gone, think about it if it were a few hundred I would have a issue but thousands , stand up for yourself and maybe talk it over with new solicitor and let him deal with it after all you will be paying him and you wont even have to talk to your old solicitor , you owe him nothing look after number one and when you are on your summer vacation with case that old solicitor wanted you wont be bother as nike say just do it, or at least get correct price, also ring the law socity for advice


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## Ravima

niall murphy in ballincollig, co cork charges €950 plus vat plus otlays. get his no in phoen book and give him a shout.


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## Chamar

The sooner that ratemysolicitor.com website gets up the better.....


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## ClubMan

Chamar said:
			
		

> The sooner that ratemysolicitor.com website gets up the better.....


Why not start this site up yourself?


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## ribena

Of course you can switch solicitors.  Just be straight with your own solicitor and tell him that you got a cheaper quote elsewhere and ask him if he's willing to match it.  There is a big difference between €16k and €2k.  It would be quite unusal that you would be quoted 1% for sale and 1% for purchase, you should at least get a discount on the two transactions.  What part of the country are you in and someone might recommend a solicitor to you?


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## roytheboyo

Just bought house.  1050 +vat+outlays.  Tell him to get lost.  He led you into this trap with the intention of screwing you. Do not give him further business, i wouldnt even ask him for a reduction.  Surely if you go in and ask him for all files/docs relating to you he must hand them over.


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## Chamar

ClubMan said:
			
		

> Why not start this site up yourself?




Believe me, I would love to - but I wouldn't want to rip off anyone's idea, as well as not really having the technical know-how. Actually I had contacted the person involved and they have recently started a Yahoo! group. Here's the link:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Crooked-Lawyers/


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## the digger

re: ravima's post above, john collins in Dunmanway does the same deal as niall murphy in Ballincollig for west cork, 950 + vat + outlays. I think they trade as homelawdirect.


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## ClubMan

Chamar said:
			
		

> Believe me, I would love to - but I wouldn't want to rip off anyone's idea, as well as not really having the technical know-how. Actually I had contacted the person involved and they have recently started a Yahoo! group. Here's the link:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Crooked-Lawyers/


It's a free market so there's nothing to stop you setting up your own site on that or any other topic. And you don't necessarily need that much technical know-how to run such a site given that hosting providers can do much of the work for you. You do, however, need the courage of your convictions and to put some money where your mouth is though. Just look at what _Brendan_ started when he set up _AAM _a few years ago!


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## bond-007

If you set up site like ratemysolicitor.com you can be sure that you will be shutdown by the bararge of legal action from solicitors feeling wronged by the opinions expressed on the site. You would need very deep pockets to fight off legal actions so the site could stay open.

Edit: I see someone has already taken it. 

Registrant:
 TDI
 The Mill
 Caher, Tipperary n-a
 IE



Domain Name: RATEMYSOLICITOR.COM


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## MOB

"you can be sure that you will be shutdown by the bararge of legal action from solicitors feeling wronged by the opinions expressed on the site"

Perhaps, but I doubt it.  I cannot recall a single incident of a lawyer in Ireland suing a client for libel.  Maybe I am just not around long enough.


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## oulu

Just wondering how did you get on nice to hear outcome


			
				Sav H said:
			
		

> Hi
> 
> I am in the process of selling my house, and buying another. Contracts just about to be signed on both (next few days) - have been asking solicitor for quotation for about 6 weeks, finally received it yesterday - solicitor is looking for 1% of sale price, and 1% of purchase price plus vat plus costs. This equates to at least 16,000 Euro!!! I am not rich - am cleaned out financially after recent separation. This firm of solicitors dealt with my separation, that's why I am still with them. I am not sure if I am tied into using them, but feel it would be very tricky to change solicitors at this late stage. I rang around solicitors from Golden Pages yesterday, and got a quote for selling and buying of 2000 Euro plus vat plus costs. I don't know what line to take with current solicitor - should I tell them to put a hold on contracts being signed, until the relevant partner talks to me about fees? I don't want to jeopardise my sale or purchase either....
> 
> Any advice?
> 
> Sav H


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## Sav H

Thank you to everyone for your replies!

The latest is (Oulu), I got onto my solicitor, who was not very sympathetic, but who said he would knock Euro 1500 (plus vat) off total as goodwill gesture. That still leaves bill at about Euro 15500 (the original quotation was actually Euro 17500ish). Tried to change solicitors, but estate agent who is selling my new house to me, said that if I changed solicitors at this late stage, the vendor of my new house, who is already nervous as contracts have yet to be signed, could possibly pull out, and I would lose that house. She advised me to sign contracts and then change solicitors, if need be. I'm not sure if any solicitor will still want to take me on at that stage... Closing date is in 2 weeks - I'll let you know how it goes!


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## MOB

"She advised me to sign contracts and then change solicitors, if need be."

I strongly disagree.   If you want to change solicitors, you should take your file (including the contracts) from your current solicitor, bring them to your new solicitor, sign the contract there (using the advice and services of your new solicitor)and have your new solicitor send it back to the solicitor for the seller.  Once they receive a signed contract, they won't care which solicitor sent it.

The current solicitor is entitled to be paid for work to date before releasing the file to you, so why let more work accrue at such a high rate of charge.


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## RainyDay

Sav H said:
			
		

> Tried to change solicitors, but estate agent who is selling my new house to me, said that if I changed solicitors at this late stage, the vendor of my new house, who is already nervous as contracts have yet to be signed, could possibly pull out, and I would lose that house. She advised me to sign contracts and then change solicitors, if need be.


Don't take this at face value. Your vendor won't pull out because you change solicitors. They might pull out if they think they can get a quick sale at a higher price if they put the house back on the market. Judge the situation for yourself.


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## royrogers

You employ solicitors to help you with the biggest purchase of your life and end up being screwed by unscrupulous solicitors and creating more hassle for you, as if you have not got enough with the purchase already!  How can she/he justify such a large fee for doing so little??


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## Sav H

Well, the latest is... I got in touch with a solicitor who was recommended to me by a friend, and this new solicitor said that she would definitely not take a client from a "colleague" (meaning any other solicitor).  She said I she would be extremely surprised if any solicitor would take me on as my closing date is in less than two weeks, and that even if they did, the whole process would be held up by at least a month.  She also said that my current solicitor is not doing anything illegal, that it's just me that has an issue with his fees.  According to her, the law society has regulations/guidelines which do not allow a solicitor to take a case from another solicitor!  I asked her did she see where I was coming from, not having received a quotation for 6 weeks after asking repeatedly, and she said I should just stick with my current solicitor, pay the bill, and put it down to experience.  I asked her again would I get a similar reaction from any other solicitor I rang, and she said I probably would, but that I could try ringing around solicitors from the Golden Pages, and somebody might take me on, but it was unlikely.

What do you think..?


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## Vanilla

Rubbish. I'm a solicitor and I would take you on as a client at a flat fee rate. You would have to give a new solicitor an authority to take the file from the old solicitor and you would have to pay the old solicitor their fees to date. That is all.  Where are you based? Perhaps I or someone near you can give you a recommendation.


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## Sav H

I'm based in Dublin.  I did get onto another solicitor afterwards who said he wouldn't have a problem taking me on, if I wasn't so close to closing date - he felt it would be very complicated to change - just to add to complications, the sale of my house is a joint one with my ex-husband's solicitor...so I guess my solicitor and my ex-husband's solicitor got together and agreed a price without consulting us.  I have spent a large part of the last ten days on the phone or online trying to sort this out - meanwhile I am trying to work, pack up home for myself and my children and deal with the other matters involved in moving house.  I feel like I am just stuck with current solicitor now - apart from anything else, I am afraid of jeopardising sale or purchase.

Thanks for all the advice - I'll let you know how it goes.


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## kazbah

I wonder what fees the second solicitor you approached charges!!

No matter how inconvenient it is, there is no way I would pay the €15.5k to the first guy.  If the sale falls through as a result of the delay then you will find another interested party and end up at least 10k better off!


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## Vanilla

Kazbah is making a very good point- the absolute worst that could happen is that the sale/purchase falls through. How difficult would it be to resell your house in the current climate?  Have you absolutely fallen in love with the house you want to buy to the extent that you are willing to overpay by at least 10,000 to avoid any risk of losing it? I think you should take a step back from what you are doing, and think about it. You may well regret this when it is too late.


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## kazbah

It's not only the money, it's the principal of the matter.  If noone stands up and says this is unacceptable charging then nothing will change.  To be honest I would also look into reporting them.  To fob off your requests for a quotation and at the last minute present one grossly over competitive rates seems like dodgy carry on.


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## Sav H

Yes, I agree somebody should stand up to these people, but no, I don't have the nerve to risk sale/purchase.  Under the terms of my separation agreement my house was supposed to be sold months ago, so I'm behind schedule anyway.  I fully intend to report this solicitor, for all the good it will do me, but for now, I will grin and bear it...


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## MOB

Sav H,

Don't get me wrong - 1% on each side of two transactions is out of kilter with the general marketplace; but as this thread has gone on, it is also becoming clearer that your sale is not a straightforward matter.

Firstly, it seems that it isn't a sale of your house.  It is a joint sale of you and your husband's house, involving two solicitors, following a separation\divorce.   No solicitor would handle such a sale for €999 plus V.A.T., or at least I don't know any who would.  But somewhere around €1,500 - €2500 plus V.A.T. would be the main range of fees, I would have thought.

Secondly, it appears that the sale of this house is "months behind";  Is it the case that your husband's solicitor and your own solicitor have  had a lot of correspondence and contact about this?.   Possibly the process has been quite fraught?  It would be normal enough for tension to arise where one spouse is still in the property, thereby giving the other spouse the impression that he\she can just wait as long as it takes for his share.   This leads to daily phone calls, letters back and forth etc.   This all costs money.  If I were your solicitor, I would charge you a normal enough fee on the sale of the house, but I would also invoice you for any such extra work caused by this delay.  It mightn't necessarily come to 1% of the sale proceeds, but it might.  

And by the way, if you are only getting half the sale proceeds of the house, I suggest you ensure that the solicitor only takes 1% of your share.  Your husband, presumably, has to pay his own solicitor out of his share of the sale proceeds.

I can still see no compelling reason for you to leave your purchase file with this solicitor (if you want to dovetail the completion of the sale and the completion of the purchase to happen on one day, it will be easier this way - but not 5 or 6 grand easier).  

You are right, by the way; reporting the solicitor is unlikely to be of much benefit;  the fee, while high, would not be so high as to constitute an overcharging situation;  very expensive undoubtedly, but that is not quite the same thing.


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## kazbah

MOB said:
			
		

> You are right, by the way; reporting the solicitor is unlikely to be of much benefit; the fee, while high, would not be so high as to constitute an overcharging situation; very expensive undoubtedly, but that is not quite the same thing.


 
Would the fact that she has asked repeatedly for a quotation not work in her favour?


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## MOB

yes it would certainly help;  but failure to give a quote in good time - while a breach of regulations - does not disentitle a solicitor from charging.  Bear in mind also that if there was a bit of a drama going on in the past six months between the solicitors over this sale (whic certainly seems possible), but as yet no contract, the solicitor could not have given a reliable fee quote at the outset, or at least if he had given a quote, it could since have been overtaken by events.

So, the real issue  is whether 1% constitutes an overcharge - i.e. a fee which cannot possibly be justified.  It is a fact that some (a minority but more than a handful) solicitors still charge this, and that some clients still pay it, so I don't think it will be regarded as an overcharge.


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## Sav H

Yes, I accept that my situation is more complicated than a straightforward sale and purchase.  If my solicitor had charged me a reasonable fee for sale and purchase and extra for the "complications", I would have understood it better.  The fee I am being charged is worked out on a percentage basis, with the joint sale being charged at a higher percentage rate.  There is no mention of being charged for extra work.  In fairness, as far as I am aware, there has been little or no contact between my solicitor and my ex-husband's solicitor over the last few months - my ex-husband just complained directly to me about the delay to avoid incurring legal fees.  The legal fees will be split between myself and my ex-husband according to our share of the proceeds of the house.

It is important to me to complete sale and purchase on the same day - I did consider the possibility of giving the purchase to another solicitor, but decided it was too risky to do so.

If I had received a quotation when I asked for one back in November, I most certainly would have shopped around.  It may well be that some solicitors charge 1 percent for conveyancing, but why would I have paid that much, when I could have got it cheaper elsewhere?


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## Vanilla

> It may well be that some solicitors charge 1 percent for conveyancing, but why would I have paid that much, when I could have got it cheaper elsewhere?


 
Isn't that what you are doing now?


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## royrogers

No, she is not doing that she is complaining about the fees and finds it too risky to change at this late stage.  What is wrong with solicitors in Ireland can they not give a quotation when asked for one.  People are reasonable they understand that if there is necessary work to be carried they will need to pay for it.  I feel that solicitors are in a legal con profession and change what ever they like for doing as little as possible??


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## Vanilla

> What is wrong with solicitors in Ireland can they not give a quotation when asked for one.


 
That is an extrapolation based on no evidence.



> I feel that solicitors are in a legal con profession and change what ever they like for doing as little as possible??


 
As you will see from the replies to this thread, there is plenty of competition out there on fees. However if the OP, knowing the fees quoted, chooses to pay them, that is a matter for herself.


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## Healy1

Changing solicitors now would be a nightmare, the solicitor should have sent you written confirmation of the fees when you became a client, therefore, you have no legal obligation to pay the solicitor. Contact the Law Society and they will confirm this. If you tried to agree the fee and got no clear reponse the solicitor is in the wrong. Find out for yourself.....


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## mf1

"the solicitor should have sent you written confirmation of the fees when you became a client, therefore, you have no legal obligation to pay the solicitor. "


This is quite simply not true. Whatever about the rights and wrongs of it( and they have been well debated above) a professional is entitled to be paid for their  services and while the failure to send a S. 68 letter is a bad thing, it does not negate the solicitors right to be paid. 

mf


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## Healy1

MF1 - 6 weeks waiting for a section 68 is not acting in a professional manner, especially when it was requested by the client! I personally would not look to pay zero but given the fact the solicitor has not acted properly, I wouldn't pay more than half percent. Are you a solicitor by any chance???


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## Sav H

Law Society told me to go ahead with solicitor, pay the bill, and that I have up to five years to complain about the fees.  The solicitor in question happens to be on a commitee in the Law Society... I'm not very optimistic about the outcome.


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## Healy1

It looks like you're caught..... You don't want to jeopardise the sale. Eat humble pie,  get the sale closed and pursue it then. Good luck with it!


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## bond-007

Sav H said:
			
		

> Law Society told me to go ahead with solicitor, pay the bill, and that I have up to five years to complain about the fees.  The solicitor in question happens to be on a commitee in the Law Society... I'm not very optimistic about the outcome.


Thats why the legal profession should be not self regulating and regulated by an outside independant body.


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## Healy1

McDowell is out regulate every industry and bring everyone to justice except his own!


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## sabrina

go through REA.ie and they will get a better deal for you with solicitors


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## boskonay

I'm also sitting on a quote based on 1% of a sale / purchase and is adding up at around 12k  I had thought this was the norm (have been with the solicitor for years).


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## monkeyboy

1% is crazy!

I have found and you can get joint mortgage and legal packages from Prima,REA etc that cost 600 to 1200 so long as you take the mortage through them also.

The most expensive quote I have had on 2 transactions of 300k and 380k was 1800, plus land reg expenses etc.

As Big Mary says "shop around"!


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## Sav H

Just an update on this thread for any curious people who wondered what the outcome was...I went ahead with the solicitor I was using, despite the very high quotation, as I felt it was way too risky to change solicitors.  I wrote a letter of complaint to the solicitor after house deals were complete.  He responded to this letter without addressing my point that he had not supplied a Section 68 when it was requested.  I then sent a letter of complaint to the Law Society, explaining the difficulties I had had.  They investigated my complaint quite promptly, by writing to the solicitor in question.  He then replied to them without really addressing the issue of the long delay with the Section 68 letter.  The Law Society said that in a case such as this, they would normally ask the solicitor to deduct a percentage from fees, but as the solicitor had previously made a deduction as a gesture of goodwill, that they were satisfied the case had been dealt with.  In other words, the solicitor covered himself in advance by making a "goodwill" gesture to me.  This saved him having to admit to anyone that he had not acted correctly in the first place.  Obviously the solicitor was more au fait with the workings of the Law Society than a mere mortal like myself...


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## December

So get back onto the Law Society again then.


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## Vanilla

Sav H- you had the opportunity to change solicitor and you even received quotes for lower fees from other solicitors. You failed to do so. I really cannot see what you have to complain about except a delay in the issue of a s.68 letter- and for that you were given a discount. As was stated already, even the failure to send a s.68 letter does not mean the fees don't have to be paid. You had your chance, you didn't take it- you probably now regret it, but I feel you have little to complain about since it was your own inaction that meant you paid a large fee.


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## z107

The sooner this process can be replaced with some automated system (completely by-passing solicitors), the better. The charges are outrageous.


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## Taximan

Hang on their vanilla, a memeber of your profession an acted in a less then professional manner, dumped a very large fee on a client two weeks before closing you don't think that was conincedental. I concede you offered your own services and those of other members of your profession to help out. In the opinion of the person closest all this it could have jepordised the purchase of her new home (for her children and herself). Is ther any empathy maybe that she was under extreme stress aftr a seperation etc ( which i am ur the soilictor


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## bond-007

Solictors are simply inadequatly regulated in this country. To suggest you should pay someone for inadequate professional services ie failure to supply a s68 letter is outrageous. If a builder didn't fix the roof of your house properly and it leaked would you still pay him? I don't think you would. Why are solictors any different?


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## Aimee

Sav H said:


> Hi
> 
> I am in the process of selling my house, and buying another. Contracts just about to be signed on both (next few days) - have been asking solicitor for quotation for about 6 weeks, finally received it yesterday - solicitor is looking for 1% of sale price, and 1% of purchase price plus vat plus costs. This equates to at least 16,000 Euro!!! I am not rich - am cleaned out financially after recent separation. This firm of solicitors dealt with my separation, that's why I am still with them. I am not sure if I am tied into using them, but feel it would be very tricky to change solicitors at this late stage. I rang around solicitors from Golden Pages yesterday, and got a quote for selling and buying of 2000 Euro plus vat plus costs. I don't know what line to take with current solicitor - should I tell them to put a hold on contracts being signed, until the relevant partner talks to me about fees? I don't want to jeopardise my sale or purchase either....
> 
> Any advice?
> 
> Sav H


 

There is one question here though that doesnt appear to have been asked by anyone!

The solicitor was looking for 1% on sale and on purchase plus costs and vat which equals €16,000-00

The other solicitors quoted €2000 for sale and purchase plus costs and vat but you didnt tell us what the total adds up to in these cases!

Was there stamp duty involved in the purchase by any chance???  What was the solicitors total professional fee only for the two transactions?


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## liteweight

Stamp duty is not a part of solicitors' fees. I doubt very much that a quote for sale/purchase  would include stamp duty.


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## Aimee

liteweight said:


> Stamp duty is not a part of solicitors' fees. I doubt very much that a quote for sale/purchase would include stamp duty.


 

I know stamp duty is not part of the solicitors fees, but it is part of the costs and the OP states that the total of the bills - which I take to include vat and outlays and stamp duty (if applicable) - so I ask does the total of €16,000-00 include stamp duty!

Basically to make it clearer - the other estimates the OP got for the sale and purchase was €2,000-00 for the solicitors professional fee, so what was the solicitors professional fee ONLY for the solicitor she went with!

Plus an estimate for costs for a purchase should include stamp duty (if applicable) - therefore it would appear in an estimate - an estimate of costs is for all costs involved, not just the solicitors fee!


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## Vanilla

I expected the usual hysterical remarks about solicitors. 

Let's get this straight- the OP was given a quote before signing contracts- she felt it was too high- that was backed up by both other solicitors and contributors here- she went ahead regardless. 

With respect the s.68 is a bit of a red herring- the law states that a solicitor must inform their client of the fees they intend to charge ( or the basis on which fees will be charged) as soon as reasonably possible. We don't know all the circumstances of this case. We can guess that the solicitor could have informed her sooner, but even if that were the case he still informed her well before signing contracts. She could have moved solicitors. She didn't. 

Equating this to not paying a builder who fails to fix a roof is just facile. There is no suggestion that the legal work was not done. The only complaint is that the solicitor didnt give her the quote for the fees earlier.

I don't have sympathy for the OP- she had enough nous to log on to a financial website and seek other opinions- enough to call other solicitors and obtain quotes and advice on moving files, but not enough to actually move solicitors? It's not rocket science. She was told how it works, what to do.


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## Aimee

Vanilla said:


> We don't know all the circumstances of this case. .


 

Exactly my point and I guess that was the intention - for posters to compare €2000 and €16000 is ridiculous as its obvious to anyone that one is a total and one is part of!

Maybe a few people should go and spend a day dealing with a conveyancing file and see then if its worth the money ........................


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## fatmanknows

Vanilla said:


> I expected the usual hysterical remarks about solicitors.
> 
> Let's get this straight- the OP was given a quote before signing contracts- she felt it was too high- that was backed up by both other solicitors and contributors here- she went ahead regardless.
> 
> With respect the s.68 is a bit of a red herring- the law states that a solicitor must inform their client of the fees they intend to charge ( or the basis on which fees will be charged) as soon as reasonably possible. We don't know all the circumstances of this case. We can guess that the solicitor could have informed her sooner, but even if that were the case he still informed her well before signing contracts. She could have moved solicitors. She didn't.
> 
> Equating this to not paying a builder who fails to fix a roof is just facile. There is no suggestion that the legal work was not done. The only complaint is that the solicitor didnt give her the quote for the fees earlier.
> 
> I don't have sympathy for the OP- she had enough nous to log on to a financial website and seek other opinions- enough to call other solicitors and obtain quotes and advice on moving files, but not enough to actually move solicitors? It's not rocket science. She was told how it works, what to do.


 
Vanilla, informing someone when your well into the case is of little use to the client. Any self respecting professional should inform the client at the outset the basis of their fees ....even orally at first, if too busy/lazy to put in writing. Conveyencing ain't rocket science .......any solicitor  in the field should be able to give ball park figure off the tip of his tongue.  

Yes they had the opportunity to change solicitors but at a not inconsiderable cost and risk to the transactions. Quit trying to defend the indefensible........The legal profession is without doubt the most complained about profession of them all.....and not without good reason.


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