# Revenue "clampdown" - Are US Shares an 'offshore asset'?



## sadie (22 Feb 2017)

I see an article today about the Revenue clamping down on those with offshore assets.

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/...xpayers-of-offshore-asset-clampdown-1.2984087

I have shares from a previous job in a US Share account, as I am sure do many Irish employees of US technology firms. I fill in the US Tax Holding form every year. I haven't sold any shares for at least 10 yrs since I left the job, so haven't 'gained' anything nor brought any money into Ireland. 
So I'm not withholding any information from Revenue, am I?


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## dereko1969 (22 Feb 2017)

Sorry don't know the answer but I hate when the term "Clampdown" is used when it's simply implementing the law as intended.


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## Kerrygrrrl (22 Feb 2017)

Yes.  This revenue initiative is only a problem for you if you had dividend income or gains which you did not declare on your tax return. Further, you may have been liable to tax depending on when you received the shares so it would be important that this was in order too.


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## joe sod (22 Feb 2017)

Kerrygrrrl said:


> Yes.  This revenue initiative is only a problem for you if you had dividend income or gains which you did not declare on your tax return. Further, you may have been liable to tax depending on when you received the shares so it would be important that this was in order too.


 
I have had a US trading account for years and have been declaring dividends and capital gains for years. However there is no place on form 11 to actually declare that you have a US trading account. There is the "foreign income" section which has a specific entry for US dividends and the "capital gains" section where you declare all capital gains whether it is property , irish shares or any other asset. Also you have to fill out W8ben form on US account where you enter all your details incuding PPS number so surely by doing this you cannot be accused of having hidden offshore account.


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## Steven Barrett (22 Feb 2017)

joe sod said:


> Also you have to fill out W8ben form on US account where you enter all your details incuding PPS number so surely by doing this you cannot be accused of having hidden offshore account.



That's so the Revenue can match back the info that the get from the US trading company. The days of people having "Swiss bank accounts" are over, there is an incredible amount of information shared between financial institutions and Revenue's from all over the world. 

I had a meeting with a client and her accountant this morning and we were talking about this. The Institute of Tax and Revenue held a joint conference about this last weekend and she said the Revenue had no real answers on what was being looked at and what was not. They kept on saying there would be an eBrief issued on all the questions that were asked. 

It is always prudent to err on the side of caution. If they Revenue don't need the info, they will disregard it.  If they do want it and you don't report it, you will be hit with penalties and interest. 


Steven 
www.bluewaterfp.ie


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## Gordon Gekko (22 Feb 2017)

How can you be hit with interest and penalties if the relevant income/gains has been returned?

This is turning into a PR nightmare for Revenue.


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## Steven Barrett (22 Feb 2017)

Gordon Gekko said:


> How can you be hit with interest and penalties if the relevant income/gains has been returned?
> 
> This is turning into a PR nightmare for Revenue.



You would if it has been returned and paid. Whether you need to put the information on your return is the issue. 

It would help if the Revenue went to the tax advisor conference with some actual answers to their questions!!


Steven
www.bluewaterfp.ie


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## Gordon Gekko (22 Feb 2017)

SBarrett said:


> You would if it has been returned and paid. Whether you need to put the information on your return is the issue.
> 
> It would help if the Revenue went to the tax advisor conference with some actual answers to their questions!!
> 
> ...



You mean you wouldn't...

This is built to prevent people with suitcases full of cash from availing of disclosure regimes.

Yet all I'm hearing is Mom and Pop types with holiday homes, current accounts, and disclosed investment income.

A PR disaster as usual.


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## dub_nerd (22 Feb 2017)

Apologies, I am confused here. (TL;DR: Skip to the last sentence of the post for my  actual question). I got a ROS notification today about "Reviewing and Correcting Your Tax Returns". I presume this is the vanilla letter sent to all self-assessed individuals, and not particularly singling me out. I followed the link to Revenue's web page on 'Making a Disclosure'. There I see the the items of interest are:

an account held or situated in a country or territory other than the State
income or gains arising from a source, or accruing, in a country or territory other than the State
property situated in a country or territory other than the State.
I also note from a document linked from the Revenue page ('[broken link removed]'):

*2.1 Is it illegal to have offshore accounts, assets or investments?*
No, it is not illegal to have an offshore account or to have assets or investments offshore, but you
must pay tax on any interest, income or gains earned. Also, any money placed in an offshore account
or used to acquire assets or investments offshore must be declared for tax purposes, unless exempt
from tax or Irish tax has already been paid on it.

*2.2 I have money offshore does that mean I have a tax problem?*
If all the money you put offshore has already been declared for Irish tax purposes and you have
declared all income or gains arising from that money on your tax returns, you have no further
liability and you do not need to make a disclosure.
If you have opened an offshore account or acquired a financial product with monies that are exempt
from tax or on which the correct Irish tax has already been paid and have not earned any income on
the account or financial product itself, you have no tax liability
________________________________________________________


So here's my thing: I have a euro trading account with SaxoBank UK. In theory I can see how this could qualify as an 'offshore account', as there are actually cash sums in there, albeit not earning any interest. All original income taxes were paid on the amounts transferred to the Saxo account. All of my gains from trades are 100% reported and up to date -- I pay all CGT by the payment deadlines and file a tax return as soon as possible, usually on January 1st, ten months ahead of the filing deadline. Items are declared as capital gains, UK dividends etc. as appropriate per Form 11. I have maintained exquisitely detailed spreadsheet records of all trades, calculated gains and tax returns, separate from the account statements themselves. As far as I'm concerned my tax affairs go beyond 'ultra-squeaky clean'.

_So my only concern is that I have not declared a Saxo UK trading account itself as an offshore account. Do I need to? I have been presuming not._


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## T McGibney (22 Feb 2017)

The overall Revenue philosophy seems to be that there is something fishy about having a foreign bank account or property. They frankly seem stuck in the 1980s.


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## odyssey06 (22 Feb 2017)

What's that phrase... "the punishment is the process" ... they don't need to penalise you, the onerous and obfuscated compliance obligations are punishment enough!


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## joe sod (22 Feb 2017)

*2.1 Is it illegal to have offshore accounts, assets or investments?*
No, it is not illegal to have an offshore account or to have assets or investments offshore, but you
must pay tax on any interest, income or gains earned. Also, any money placed in an offshore account
or used to acquire assets or investments offshore must be declared for tax purposes, unless exempt
from tax or Irish tax has already been paid on it.

I dont understand this, for example if you earned 35000 euro in a year and paid all the PAYE and USC as per the PAYE system, then surely this is "declared" income. Then if you transfer 10000euro of this into an US trading account, what is the issue?. Anyway there is no entry on form 11 to "declare" income you are transferring offshore. Basically what does it mean to "declare" money you are transferring offshore and how do you do this?


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## dub_nerd (22 Feb 2017)

There is a place on Form 11 for a once-off declaration of new foreign bank accounts opened:

*Foreign Bank Accounts* (S.895)
_Give the following details for each foreign bank account opened in 2016 of which you or your spouse/civil partner were the beneficial owner of the deposits held_

_Name & address of deposit holder (bank etc.) 
Date account was opened (DD/MM/YYYY) 
Amount of money deposited on opening the account €
Name & address of intermediary through whom account was opened _

I find it hard to imagine it applies to trading accounts, but who knows for certain?

EDIT: The S.895 referred to is explained in this Revenue document:

http://www.revenue.ie/en/practitioner/law/notes-for-guidance/tca/part38.pdf

It refers to foreign bank accounts, whether or not any interest is paid. The penalty for not informing Revenue about opening such an account is €4,000 for each offence. You don't have to have made any money from it.

So, still in a quandary as to whether a trading account with a broker in another country that happens to be a bank is "a foreign bank account".


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## joe sod (22 Feb 2017)

@dub_nerd,  yes I understand that issue of opening a "foreign bank account" in the tax year in question. But it doesn't mention trading accounts or the transfer of money into a trading account or even a bank account which was already been opened previously. For example I transfer 5000 euro into a trading account or bank account opened in 1999 , there is no entry for that, and whats the issue if tax and usc already paid as per PAYE system


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## torblednam (22 Feb 2017)

T McGibney said:


> The overall Revenue philosophy seems to be that there is something fishy about having a foreign bank account or property. They frankly seem stuck in the 1980s.



I assume you're talking about "Revenue" in the broader sense of the Governments and Revenue authorities of dozens of countries who have decided to sign up to the new exchange of information...

Do you believe there won't be any / many instances of substantial tax evasion uncovered as a result of new information and that Revenue are barking up the wrong tree?

As an auditor yourself I'm sure you'll agree there is quite clearly a risk if Revenue receive information that an Irish resident and domiciled person has material interests abroad and their Irish tax returns don't indicate foreign sources of income?


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## T McGibney (23 Feb 2017)

torblednam said:


> I assume you're talking about "Revenue" in the broader sense of the Governments and Revenue authorities of dozens of countries who have decided to sign up to the new exchange of information...
> 
> Do you believe there won't be any / many instances of substantial tax evasion uncovered as a result of new information and that Revenue are barking up the wrong tree?
> 
> As an auditor yourself I'm sure you'll agree there is quite clearly a risk if Revenue receive information that an Irish resident and domiciled person has material interests abroad and their Irish tax returns don't indicate foreign sources of income?


My comment is in relation to Irish Revenue, but may well be applicable to authorities overseas too.  

I stand over my point that Revenue are treating taxpayers with non-Irish assets as potential criminals. 

I frankly don't accept that it is either fair or reasonable of them  to withdraw qualifying disclosure options from these taxpayers in respect of such assets  while preserving them in respect of assets located within the Irish State.  I believe that this discrimination, if challenged by someone with assets outside the State but within the EU, would be torn apart at EU level.


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## fistophobia (23 Feb 2017)

I read the letter on Revenue website. I agree it has a nasty, threatening tone.
This really is a PR disaster for them.
I will file it where it belongs - in the garbage.


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## joe sod (23 Feb 2017)

joe sod said:


> @dub_nerd,  yes I understand that issue of opening a "foreign bank account" in the tax year in question. But it doesn't mention trading accounts or the transfer of money into a trading account or even a bank account which was already been opened previously. For example I transfer 5000 euro into a trading account or bank account opened in 1999 , there is no entry for that, and whats the issue if tax and usc already paid as per PAYE system


 
Can anyone clarify this issue, are you supposed to "declare" US trading account and are you supposed to "declare" money moved to a US trading account (after all taxes paid in ireland). If so how do you do this there are no specific entries on form 11 for this


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## Gordon Gekko (24 Feb 2017)

My parents bought a place overseas a number of years ago with clean money. They also opened a foreign current account for utilities etc. No income has ever been generated and if a capital gain arises, the tax will be paid as appropriate.

They have been advised to write to Revenue stating that they have these things, that they're compliant, and that there's nothing further to add.


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## dub_nerd (24 Feb 2017)

I'm going to raise a question with Revenue via ROS as to whether a foreign trading account is considered to be a "foreign account" that must be declared. Don't hold your breath ... it took them months to reply to my last query.


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## sunnydonkey (24 Feb 2017)

What about a non-resident who moves back to Ireland, having opened normal accounts abroad while non resident and then retained them?. As  far as I can see Revenue doesnt ask about these, only accounts opened in the past year. 

It also asks about 'chargeable assets' acquired, without giving any explanation of precisely what these are.

As somebody mentioned above it seems that Revenue are way behind the curve on how modern self investment is done, and still think of accounts abroad as a way of hiding 'black money' instead of a more efficient investment system than that offered by irish banks.


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## newtothis (24 Feb 2017)

Gordon Gekko said:


> My parents bought a place overseas a number of years ago with clean money. They also opened a foreign current account for utilities etc. No income has ever been generated and if a capital gain arises, the tax will be paid as appropriate.
> 
> They have been advised to write to Revenue stating that they have these things, that they're compliant, and that there's nothing further to add.



The following has already been quoted:



dub_nerd said:


> *2.2 I have money offshore does that mean I have a tax problem?*
> If all the money you put offshore has already been declared for Irish tax purposes and you have
> declared all income or gains arising from that money on your tax returns, you have no further
> liability and you do not need to make a disclosure.
> ...



I'm tempted to ask "what part of that do you not understand?" to those who keep asking if previously opened accounts have to be declared. "you do not need to make a disclosure" sounds pretty unambiguous to me.


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## Gordon Gekko (24 Feb 2017)

newtothis said:


> The following has already been quoted:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm tempted to ask "what part of that do you not understand?" to those who keep asking if previously opened accounts have to be declared. "you do not need to make a disclosure" sounds pretty unambiguous to me.



Because in theory there's a €4,000 fine if you open a foreigh bank account and don't tell Revenue about it.


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## torblednam (24 Feb 2017)

Gordon Gekko said:


> Because in theory there's a €4,000 fine if you open a foreigh bank account and don't tell Revenue about it.



There is a €4,000 penalty for all sorts of things in the taxes acts.


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## dub_nerd (24 Feb 2017)

Gordon Gekko said:


> Because in theory there's a €4,000 fine if you open a foreigh bank account and don't tell Revenue about it.


Exactly. The practitioner notes I linked earlier state under S.895:

_"In addition, Irish residents themselves are obliged to report the opening of such accounts
on their annual returns of income. This obligation applies irrespective of whether the
matter also falls to be reported by a financial institution or other agent" 

"As the provision is an anti-evasion one, substantial penalties are provided for non
compliance. In the case of financial institutions and other agents, the penalty is €4,000
for each occasion they fail to comply with the section. In the case of the taxpayer, non
compliance attracts the surcharge for late submission of returns under section 1084. The
surcharge will apply for the year in which the undeclared account was opened."_

This says nothing about not having to report the account if there is no tax liability, so I would not necessarily draw comfort from the other Revenue notes that might seem to suggest otherwise. I doubt Revenue would entertain complaints about their inconsistency when they were slapping penalties, late payment surcharges and interest on you. (Although I've just noticed that the €4k fine is for non-compliant banks and agents, not the taxpayer, which is some relief). Better safe than sorry, which is why I have asked Revenue to clarify.


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## Fella (24 Feb 2017)

I've a Saxobank account , no letters from revenue if they mail me ask me do i have a foreign bank account ill tell them ,otherwise I wouldn't worry about it. Sure loads of people have Revolut or that other bank N26 or something are they all expected to declare them .


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## joe sod (24 Feb 2017)

"I'm tempted to ask "what part of that do you not understand?" to those who keep asking if previously opened accounts have to be declared. "you do not need to make a disclosure" sounds pretty unambiguous to me."

Fair enough thanks for that , its just the wording that is confusing "declaring" money moved offshore leads you to believe that you have to notify revenue of money you have moved offshore whereas my understanding now is that "declaring" means that you have paid all taxes due before you move it offshore. Then when we received the letter informing us that we need to check our tax returns using "voluntary disclosure" leads you to think that everything is not in order and that you are being flagged on the revenue system because you have not "declared" an offshore account. It seems the word "declare" has many meanings


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## fistophobia (24 Feb 2017)

So when you transfer 100 Euro to your offshore broker account - revenue needs a disclosure? Lovely.


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## T McGibney (24 Feb 2017)

Is a PayPal account an offshore account? These professional advisors think so...   [broken link removed]


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## joe sod (24 Feb 2017)

Fella said:


> I've a Saxobank account , no letters from revenue if they mail me ask me do i have a foreign bank account ill tell them ,otherwise I wouldn't worry about it. Sure loads of people have Revolut or that other bank N26 or something are they all expected to declare them .



The problem is they sent a non descript email asking are you sure your tax affairs are in order?, Then they sent a link to their "voluntary disclosure" info, but the information is not absolutely clear on what accounts have to be disclosed and how to do it. Then we find out from the media that they only sent those emails to people that they now know have offshore accounts but which they never before explicitly asked for information on. If they sent an e-mail asking for information on all accounts held offshore it would be an awful lot simpler. It leads you to believe that your tax affairs are not correct but you are not sure either ways.


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## newtothis (24 Feb 2017)

joe sod said:


> "I'm tempted to ask "what part of that do you not understand?" to those who keep asking if previously opened accounts have to be declared. "you do not need to make a disclosure" sounds pretty unambiguous to me."
> 
> Fair enough thanks for that , its just the wording that is confusing "declaring" money moved offshore leads you to believe that you have to notify revenue of money you have moved offshore whereas my understanding now is that "declaring" means that you have paid all taxes due before you move it offshore.



Can you share the wording you are referring to? Anything quoted so far seems unambiguous to me. You're starting to worry me now: I've had an offshore account for many years (never closed it after moving back here after living abroad). I've never declared I've had it on the basis it was opened long before the requirement to declare any offshore accounts being opened and any funds transferred to/from are already taxed.

Having to declare all movements transferred offshore seems extraordinary too: where is this stated as a requirement?


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## major (24 Feb 2017)

joe sod said:


> The problem is they sent a non descript email asking are you sure your tax affairs are in order?, Then they sent a link to their "voluntary disclosure" info, but the information is not absolutely clear on what accounts have to be disclosed and how to do it. Then we find out from the media that they only sent those emails to people that they now know have offshore accounts but which they never before explicitly asked for information on. If they sent an e-mail asking for information on all accounts held offshore it would be an awful lot simpler. It leads you to believe that your tax affairs are not correct but you are not sure either ways.


Got a letter from them today  about reviewing and correcting my tax returns  as a self assessment taxpayer  which also included qualifying disclosure information  so not too sure if they have something on me or just reminding me to be very careful with my returns or else!!


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## joe sod (24 Feb 2017)

newtothis said:


> Can you share the wording you are referring to? Anything quoted so far seems unambiguous to me. You're starting to worry me now: I've had an offshore account for many years (never closed it after moving back here after living abroad). I've never declared I've had it on the basis it was opened long before the requirement to declare any offshore accounts being opened and any funds transferred to/from are already taxed.
> 
> Having to declare all movements transferred offshore seems extraordinary too: where is this stated as a requirement?



this is the wording I decided just to copy and paste it into reply

"Reviewing and Correcting Your Tax Returns

Dear
Thank you for filing your 2015 Income Tax return.
The tax returns filed by the vast majority of taxpayers are correct and complete. If your returns for all taxes are correct and complete, Revenue would like to thank you for that.
Revenue is writing to self-assessed taxpayers to make sure they are aware of how to correct any errors that have been made in, or any omissions from, any tax return they have filed.
You will be aware that Revenue carries out a range of checks to ensure that returns are filed and are correct. If you are concerned that you may need to correct a tax return, it is important for you to know that there are significant advantages available, if you make any necessary corrections before Revenue contacts you. By doing this, you can avail of reduced penalties, avoid having your name published in the List of Tax Defaulters and avoid possible prosecution.

Details of how to correct any returns and the benefits of making a ‘qualifying disclosure’ are set out in Revenue’s Code of Practice for Revenue Audit and other Compliance Interventions (the ‘Code’), which has recently been updated. I am enclosing a summary sheet on the Code which I hope you will find useful. More details, including the full Code and Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs), are available on our website at www.revenue.ie/en/business/disclosure.html.

From 1 May 2017, significant changes are being made where any corrections to tax returns relate to a person’s offshore matters or matters outside the Republic of Ireland. These changes restrict a person’s opportunity to make a ‘qualifying disclosure’. If this affects you, there are full details on our website explaining the changes, and you should come forward and correct your tax returns by making a ‘qualifying disclosure’ before 1 May 2017. You may wish to consider getting independent advice if you have such an issue.
If your returns are correct, again thank you and you do not need to take any action. If you need to correct a tax return, or there is something you wish to disclose, you will find further details on our website.
Yours etc."


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## fistophobia (24 Feb 2017)

What I read into this.. rule by fear.
Gestapo tactics.


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## dub_nerd (24 Feb 2017)

fistophobia said:


> So when you transfer 100 Euro to your offshore broker account - revenue needs a disclosure? Lovely.





newtothis said:


> Having to declare all movements transferred offshore seems extraordinary too: where is this stated as a requirement?



I don't think anyone's said that every transfer has to be declared. Revenue want you to disclose the existence of offshore bank accounts _once_. You're expected to declare any foreign gains or earning for tax each year. There's no suggestion that you have to declared each transaction.


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## lukas888 (24 Feb 2017)

Revenue are sending out 500,000 Reviewing and Correcting return letters over the next few weeks.
Have no fear you are not singled out.


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## fistophobia (24 Feb 2017)

It would not matter - if you were transferring amounts over a certain figure, your Irish bank is obliged to report it to Revenue.


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## edmondantis12 (24 Feb 2017)

I posted also in the tax forum. I wonder if this is valid also for non-irish / non-domiciled in Ireland. I transferred some of my PAYE income and sold some shares (Revenue approved) then moved them to my US brokerage account over many years and reinvested them with them in the US. I had gains some years, some years losses but never reported any income or CGT to Revenue since I never remitted the profits back to Ireland. An independent tax consulting firm after analyzing my situation told me that non-doms have no tax liability on the disposal of US shares held offshore unless they are remitted to Ireland. I read the FAQ but they are not clear at all. For example there is no indication if long term residents but non-dom individuals are supposed to report foreign income, foreign brokerage accounts even if there is no tax liability. I know non-doms are probably a small percentage but still there is no clear indication on how the treatment would be. I may get a second opinion in the next few weeks. So far I have not received any letters but I'm not self assessed since my only income in Ireland is PAYE so may never receive it.  

Edmond


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## dub_nerd (24 Feb 2017)

Right. At least Revenue got back to me promptly. Unfortunately they provided essentially no information. Here's what I asked them:

_"Recently I received Revenue's letter "Reviewing and Correcting Your Tax Returns" via ROS, which I understand has gone to all self-assessed tax payers. Among other things it states: "From 1 May 2017, significant changes are being made where any corrections to tax returns relate to a person's offshore matters or matters outside the Republic of Ireland. These changes restrict a person's opportunity to make a 'qualifying disclosure'". 

"I understand that foreign bank accounts must be disclosed to Revenue. I have a question regarding a foreign share trading account, i.e. an account held with a share broker in another country. (To be specific my query relates to Saxobank UK Ltd.). The account itself can be used only for share trading, there is no deposit interest involved, and Saxobank do not consider it a "bank account". Dividends and gains/losses on shares are all separately accounted for on tax returns, and any money lodged to the account is all fully tax-paid in Ireland."

"I believe this does not count as a foreign bank account, but Revenue's wording is very general in some of its communications. So for the avoidance of doubt I wish to ask if a foreign share trading account is a foreign account that must be disclosed (under S.895 on Form 11, and separately to declaration of gains thereon for CGT) and is potentially subject to the penalty of €4,000 for non-disclosure."
______________________________________________________________

Here is Revenue's reply:

_"Dear Sir, Thank you for your email dated 24/02/2017 and the information supplied. Without inspecting documentation relating to the account it is not possible to determine whether it falls to be disclosed under S895. Revenue's main concert is that all income and gain arising in the account is declared for tax purposes. I would suggest that in your 2016 tax return you declare the existence of the account albeit it is not an account opened during that year. Regards Christine Hickey Offshore Assets Group "
______________________________________________________________

This seems extraordinary -- Revenue can't tell you what accounts have to be declared without seeing "documentation", but you are expected to figure it out yourself without being given any criteria. I've looked at all the legislation and I still can't figure it out. I am going by the Taxes Consolidation Act 1997 Section 895 to which Form 11 refers, which says:

_“deposit” means a sum of money paid to a person on terms under which it will be repaid with or without interest and either on demand or at a time or in circumstances agreed by or on behalf of the person making the payment and the person to whom it is made;

“foreign account” means an account in which a deposit is held at a location outside the State;_

With such a general definition it seems quite possible that a foreign trading account is a "relevant account", so it seems there is no choice but to declare it, which is what Revenue suggested anyway. My problem now is that my 2016 tax return is long gone. Time for an amendment I guess.


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## joe sod (24 Feb 2017)

@dub_nerd, thanks for that information, I am in the same position as you, thanks for sharing the reply. So my interpretation is that everything is in order so, we just have to enter details of the offshore trading accounts in the 2016 return. Once we have been declaring income and gains we are ok. Its the confusing wording that is really offputting and worrying. It looks like they are after people that have an offshore account maybe opened by their company (many US companies do this) and never declared anything to revenue. But I usually dont do my 2016 return until late in the year after may 1, I presume just enter the details under "foreign bank account" section. As you say a foreign trading account cannot be confused with a foreign bank account and that is the only specific information revenue have asked for up to this point. The thing is if they were honing in on foreign assets why did they not put a specific and clear entry into form 11 for people to enter those details. I mean why dont they ask for more information on form 11 to iron out these inconsistencies. If they explicitely asked for foreign assets held in offshore accounts it would probably bring many more people out of the woodwork or even prevented people hiding assets. 

Im glad of this site askaboutmoney where people can share stuff like this ,its a big help when revenue sends out letters like this


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## major (24 Feb 2017)

lukas888 said:


> Revenue are sending out 500,000 Reviewing and Correcting return letters over the next few weeks.
> Have no fear you are not singled out.


Thanks lukas888


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## dub_nerd (24 Feb 2017)

Yeah, joe sod, I've just amended my 2016 Form 11 and added the trading account as a Foreign Bank Account, making clear that I don't believe it qualifies but I'm doing it on Revenue's own advice.


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## newtothis (24 Feb 2017)

dub_nerd said:


> I don't think anyone's said that every transfer has to be declared. Revenue want you to disclose the existence of offshore bank accounts _once_. You're expected to declare any foreign gains or earning for tax each year. There's no suggestion that you have to declared each transaction.



That's exactly what my understanding is, based on what's in the Revenue FAQ (and also what's actually asked on the form): you declare when you open an offshore account, not that you already have one (unless it's used to hold undeclared income).

And yes, there has been a suggestion that each transaction has to be declared:



joe sod said:


> ...its just the wording that is confusing "declaring" money moved offshore leads you to believe that you have to notify revenue of money you have moved offshore



and:



fistophobia said:


> So when you transfer 100 Euro to your offshore broker account - revenue needs a disclosure? Lovely.



This strikes me as nonsense: I can't see how anyone would get that interpretation.

As for the letter, it reads (to me) like a general warning that you're being given a last opportunity to regularise anything where you don't comply before a more rigorous compliance regime comes into practice. I don't see anything particularly wrong with that.


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## RichInSpirit (24 Feb 2017)

dub_nerd said:


> I understand that foreign bank accounts must be disclosed to Revenue. I have a question regarding a foreign share trading account, i.e. an account held with a share broker in another country



I was talking to the Offshore crowd too about my spread betting account and I have decided to declare it but I haven't gotten around to it yet.


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## dub_nerd (25 Feb 2017)

newtothis said:


> As for the letter, it reads (to me) like a general warning that you're being given a last opportunity to regularise anything where you don't comply before a more rigorous compliance regime comes into practice. I don't see anything particularly wrong with that.



I do. In fact, frankly, it annoys the face off me. We've been having tax amnesties in this country going back two decades. Anybody who hasn't got the message is an idiot or, more likely, a crook. How many more letters do we need to the effect that "no, we REALLY mean it this time". But instead of just doing the job they are paid to do, they put out this stupid letter and then compound the stupidity by not being able to give an unambiguous explanation about what sort of offshore accounts qualify. So those of us who believe we are already 100% compliant get to jump through more silly hoops for want of an answer.

What's next? Declaring our PayPal account? Our Amazon book tokens? (And I'm not joking -- my trading account is no more a bank account than either of those).


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## torblednam (25 Feb 2017)

dub_nerd said:


> I do. In fact, frankly, it annoys the face off me. We've been having tax amnesties in this country going back two decades. Anybody who hasn't got the message is an idiot or, more likely, a crook. How many more letters do we need to the effect that "no, we REALLY mean it this time". But instead of just doing the job they are paid to do, they put out this stupid letter and then compound the stupidity by not being able to give an unambiguous explanation about what sort of offshore accounts qualify. So those of us who believe we are already 100% compliant get to jump through more silly hoops for want of an answer.



So on the one hand you've had enough of amnesties, but on the other hand you're not happy now that the penalties applicable to people with hot money offshore are now being stiffened... this letter isn't offering anyone an amnesty, it's the opposite. No pleasing you! 

It strikes me that people are getting their panties in a bunch over this somewhat unnecessarily. Revenue are interested in hammering tax evaders who have earned money in Ireland and evaded taxes here on it, and hidden their untaxed money offshore. I can't see them having any interest in people's share trading account, as long as the gains from those investments were returned on their Irish returns. 

I'd assumed they felt they needed to write to "everyone" so that when the rules change and they start applying the new regime of no reduction in penalties for evaders who sent hot money offshore, the penalty can't be challenged on grounds of ignorance or similar...


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## torblednam (25 Feb 2017)

dub_nerd said:


> Right. At least Revenue got back to me promptly. Unfortunately they provided essentially no information. Here's what I asked them:
> 
> _"Recently I received Revenue's letter "Reviewing and Correcting Your Tax Returns" via ROS, which I understand has gone to all self-assessed tax payers. Among other things it states: "From 1 May 2017, significant changes are being made where any corrections to tax returns relate to a person's offshore matters or matters outside the Republic of Ireland. These changes restrict a person's opportunity to make a 'qualifying disclosure'".
> 
> ...



Of course they're not going to tell you anything one way or the other without seeing the details of the account, how could they, that'd be very irresponsible! If you described something to me as a mammal, weighing about 8kgs, with 4 paws, whiskers, a medium length tail, fetches a stick when you throw it and growls at the postman, I might tell you that's definitely a dog, but it could just that you have a big cat!

What in the definitions in Section 895 is unclear? It seems quite clear that it covers a trading account. With good reason too; if you had a nice pub or takeaway business generating lots of cash and you siphoned off a bit of that cash under the counter and into a share trading account to effectively launder it for yourself over time, you'd have been a right clever boyo, away in a hack... until later this year...

Anyway, if your concern is about section 895, I don't see what that has to do with this week's letter, since 895 has always been there, and in my entire career to date in tax I've never heard of anyone being penalised under that section. Are you sure you're reading it correctly in relation to the penalty by the way? The €4K penalty applies where either an Irish intermediary who you used to open your foreign account fail to comply with their obligations, or where you fail to provide the intermediary with the necessary info... What does seem to be open to happening, is that a person may be liable to a late filing surcharge under section 1084. However, I very much doubt Revenue are going to be exerting much energy on applying surcharges left right and centre on otherwise fully compliant customers.

You even have it straight from the Revenue horse's mouth in their email reply, that their main concern is that income and gains have been declared, so I'm not sure why you're feeling so exercised by this.


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## dub_nerd (25 Feb 2017)

torblednam said:


> So on the one hand you've had enough of amnesties, but on the other hand you're not happy now that the penalties applicable to people with hot money offshore are now being stiffened... this letter isn't offering anyone an amnesty, it's the opposite. No pleasing you!



The penalities _aren't _being stiffened. They are exactly the same.



torblednam said:


> It strikes me that people are getting their panties in a bunch over this somewhat unnecessarily. Revenue are interested in hammering tax evaders who have earned money in Ireland and evaded taxes here on it, and hidden their untaxed money offshore. I can't see them having any interest in people's share trading account, as long as the gains from those investments were returned on their Irish returns.



If they have no interest in people's share trading account then you'd expect them to say that when asked that question directly, no? They didn't. The question on Form 11 doesn't say: "tell us about any accounts where you are harbouring illegal gains". It just asks for foreign bank accounts. So what's the big deal about asking whether a share trading account qualifies as a bank account for the purposes of a disclosure? Sounds like a simple question to me.



torblednam said:


> I'd assumed they felt they needed to write to "everyone" so that when the rules change and they start applying the new regime of no reduction in penalties for evaders who sent hot money offshore, the penalty can't be challenged on grounds of ignorance or similar...



And I repeat unapologetically: that's pandering to idiots and crooks.



torblednam said:


> What in the definitions in Section 895 is unclear? It seems quite clear that it covers a trading account.


So the answer is quite clear to you, but Miss Revenue Offshore couldn't answer it? What do you put that down to, and how do you square it with your contradictory assertion that they can't answer "without seeing the details of the account"? To put it another way, what sort of share trading account _wouldn't_ be covered?



torblednam said:


> You even have it straight from the Revenue horse's mouth in their email reply, that their main concern is that income and gains have been declared, so I'm not sure why you're feeling so exercised by this.



With respect, I didn't ask Revenue what their main concern is, nor do I care. I want to know what I have to do in order to be compliant. It's entirely reasonable to expect that Revenue could answer that unambiguously.


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## torblednam (25 Feb 2017)

dub_nerd said:


> The penalities _aren't _being stiffened. They are exactly the same.


Well something is changing or they wouldn't be writing to the whole self assessed taxpayer population...! What is changing is that anyone with a tax liability (whether through deliberate evasion or through careless oversight) after 1st May, will no longer be able to make a qualifying disclosure to reduce the applicable tax geared penalty from 100% down to as low as 3%. This is a huge change - see how upset T McGibney is about it for example! It most certainly is a stiffening of penalties - the maximum level of penalty hasn't changed, but the potential to be hit by that maximum level of penalty has increased exponentially - as anyone who discovers they miscalculated their taxable foreign income on their 2015 self assessment return will tell you, if it needs to be resolved after 1st May 2017. The measure is an anti-evasion one, but in order for it to be broad enough to capture all cases of evasion, it also has potential to affect people who are unaware they had anything wrong in their returns. Hence the need to make sure everyone knows about it and has the chance to fix things before the consequences of an incorrect return get drastically worse...



dub_nerd said:


> If they have no interest in people's share trading account then you'd expect them to say that when asked that question directly, no? They didn't. The question on Form 11 doesn't say: "tell us about any accounts where you are harbouring illegal gains". It just asks for foreign bank accounts. So what's the big deal about asking whether a share trading account qualifies as a bank account for the purposes of a disclosure? Sounds like a simple question to me.


As I've already stated, they have plenty of reason to be interested in people's trading accounts generally, as there is a good chance that a person might route untaxed income into such an account.



dub_nerd said:


> And I repeat unapologetically: that's pandering to idiots and crooks.


Your unapology is not accepted!  See my response to your first point above, as to why everyone needs to know. Repeat - it's not an amnesty, it's the last chance for people to make absolutely sure their returns are OK, and to fix things within the current penalty framework before it changes to a more draconian regime.



dub_nerd said:


> So the answer is quite clear to you, but Miss Revenue Offshore couldn't answer it? What do you put that down to, and how do you square it with your contradictory assertion that they can't answer "without seeing the details of the account"? To put it another way, what sort of share trading account _wouldn't_ be covered?


 It seeming quite clear to me over the internet is all well and good, but if my job was to answer such queries, I'd be making sure my a$$ is covered and having sight of the account I'm being asked to opine on. I think your post crossed with me editing my previous one to include an analogy involving cats & dogs - that still refers...


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## Gordon Gekko (25 Feb 2017)

Do you know what the salient point is?

In the deepest darkest recesses of Revenue, where Trotskyites without an ounce of commercial nous gather, they believe that it is disgraceful for any individual to have a foreign account. They simply cannot get their heads around the fact that someone might have a current account with Santander to pay the utilities for their villa or that someone might prefer to deal with a UK based stockbroker.

This entire episode is a PR disaster routed in Revenue's ignorance and bias.


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## torblednam (25 Feb 2017)

Gordon Gekko said:


> Do you know what the salient point is?
> 
> In the deepest darkest recesses of Revenue, where Trotskyites without an ounce of commercial nous gather, they believe that it is disgraceful for any individual to have a foreign account. They simply cannot get their heads around the fact that someone might have a current account with Santander to pay the utilities for their villa or that someone might prefer to deal with a UK based stockbroker.
> 
> This entire episode is a PR disaster routed in Revenue's ignorance and bias.


I didn't have you down for a conspiracy theorist Gordon! Or do you just dabble in it on the weekends...?!


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## newtothis (25 Feb 2017)

Gordon Gekko said:


> Do you know what the salient point is?
> 
> In the deepest darkest recesses of Revenue, where Trotskyites without an ounce of commercial nous gather, they believe that it is disgraceful for any individual to have a foreign account. They simply cannot get their heads around the fact that someone might have a current account with Santander to pay the utilities for their villa or that someone might prefer to deal with a UK based stockbroker.
> 
> This entire episode is a PR disaster routed in Revenue's ignorance and bias.



I cannot see how you can possibly get that interpretation. As already quoted:



dub_nerd said:


> I also note from a document linked from the Revenue page ('[broken link removed]'):
> 
> *2.1 Is it illegal to have offshore accounts, assets or investments?*
> No, it is not illegal to have an offshore account or to have assets or investments offshore, but you
> ...



What is the problem here?

There has been an historic problem of people hiding "hot" funds offshore. Information exchange between authorities internationally is being enhanced, people are being given notice that as a result enforcement will be stepped up. What's the issue with that? Would you prefer not to be given the heads-up if you were in that situation?

I'm no apologist for Revenue, as I think they've other things to answer for (notably the lack of consistency in dealing with the likes of Apple, who get to sit down for cosy chats with them to decide how much tax they'd like to pay), but that's another issue. On this, I really can't see what your problem is.


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## losttheplot (25 Feb 2017)

I've just read the FAQ, it seems to me, once you have declared the income and paid any tax due, there's no problem. My impression it's specifically aimed at evasion and hiding undeclared income and gains.


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## fistophobia (25 Feb 2017)

There is an issue here with confidentiality. Once you have paid all due taxes, your money is yours, to do whatever you want with it.
I dont want Revenue or anyone else knowing my personal investment strategies or holdings.
What we have here in Ireland is Scandinavian levels of wealth taxation, but without the same level of public services.
The letter is designed to shake out a few people. Maybe by fining and naming / shaming people, it will encourage more tax compliance.
Again, nothing to worry about if you are above board. For anyone else, be aware of the REAP system. Enough said.


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## torblednam (25 Feb 2017)

losttheplot said:


> I've just read the FAQ, it seems to me, once you have declared the income and paid any tax due, there's no problem. My impression it's specifically aimed at evasion and hiding undeclared income and gains.



Yes, but, but, but... big mean revenue... 

People looking to find offence will seldom be disappointed.


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## joe sod (25 Feb 2017)

torblednam said:


> What in the definitions in Section 895 is unclear? It seems quite clear that it covers a trading account. With good reason too; if you had a nice pub or takeaway business generating lots of cash and you siphoned off a bit of that cash under the counter and into a share trading account to effectively launder it for yourself over time, you'd have been a right clever boyo, away in a hack... until later this year...



I dont know if you are from revenue but its absolutely not clear . The question on form 11 specifically asks have you opened a foreign bank account in the previous tax year and provide details. There is no ambiguity in the question , if revenue were so concerned about huge sums of money siphoned into brokerage accounts under the counter then why did they not add in the question about brokerage accounts years ago. They knew that thousands of workers in US multinationals had them since the 90s.

Another thing when I transfer money into the brokerage account it has to go through an intermediary bank account completely different to the brokerage company. Everyone uses the exact same intermediary bank account number to transfer money into their brokerage accounts. Therefore they would have a hell of a difficulty trying to say that a brokerage account is the same as bank account . Its definitely not and this procedure proves it.


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## dub_nerd (26 Feb 2017)

I have the same process as you joe sod ... transfers go through a single account number for everyone. And I agree -- I wouldn't have guessed in a month of Sundays that the question on Form 11 could include brokerage accounts.



losttheplot said:


> I've just read the FAQ, it seems to me, once you have declared the income and paid any tax due, there's no problem. My impression it's specifically aimed at evasion and hiding undeclared income and gains.



Except you still have to declare your accounts which means you still have to know which accounts are covered. It doesn't matter what it's aimed at.


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## Prittstick (26 Feb 2017)

I have this thread twice, but I am really still no wiser.   I have had a TD Direct UK  share-dealing Account ( their HQ is in Leeds)for years ...the cash I have lodged into it (with which I buy/sell shares) came from my Irish PAYE income. Each year I declare any dividends, share acquisitions and disposals  and any CGT gains /losses on my Form 11. 

I have never declared the account, as such,  on the Form.

I have received the Revenue letter..  Do I now need to declare the TD Direct account?    Any advice appreciated. thanks.


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## lukas888 (26 Feb 2017)

I am surprised that nobody has mentioned the CRS in this discussion.I presume that the revenue letters are as a direct response to this new 
sharing of financial information relating to non residents between the revenue authorities of most countries.All financial providers are obliged to forward account balance etc to their respective tax  authorities who will then forward all this info on to our revenue commissioners.I expect a
huge amount of information to arrive from across Europe over the coming months.The revenue know this and are preempting this by their warning
letter.


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## joe sod (27 Feb 2017)

Prittstick said:


> I have this thread twice, but I am really still no wiser.   I have had a TD Direct UK  share-dealing Account ( their HQ is in Leeds)for years ...the cash I have lodged into it (with which I buy/sell shares) came from my Irish PAYE income. Each year I declare any dividends, share acquisitions and disposals  and any CGT gains /losses on my Form 11.
> 
> I have never declared the account, as such,  on the Form.
> 
> I have received the Revenue letter..  Do I now need to declare the TD Direct account?    Any advice appreciated. thanks.



Looks like lots of people are in the same boat so, and everyone has not "declared" offshore brokerage accounts as they have never been asked for this information before. I bet that the 2017 form 11 will be changed to ask for this information. The thing is that if you have had an offshore brokerage account for many years and have accumulated a large value in shares, suddenly it looks suspicious even though you have been doing everything above board.


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## newtothis (27 Feb 2017)

Prittstick said:


> I have this thread twice, but I am really still no wiser.   I have had a TD Direct UK  share-dealing Account ( their HQ is in Leeds)for years ...the cash I have lodged into it (with which I buy/sell shares) came from my Irish PAYE income. Each year I declare any dividends, share acquisitions and disposals  and any CGT gains /losses on my Form 11.
> 
> I have never declared the account, as such,  on the Form.
> 
> I have received the Revenue letter..  Do I now need to declare the TD Direct account?    Any advice appreciated. thanks.



See the Revenue FAQ, a copy of which has already been posted here (at least twice). If funds going into it are not tax compliant, or income generated from it have not been declared, the answer is "yes", you do need to declare it. If everything is compliant, it depends on when it was opened. If it was opened before Revenue started asking whether you had opened an account in the last year, the answer is "no" (does anyone know when they started asking this?). If opened since they started asking the answer is "yes", and you are being given an opportunity to correct the form where you should have done so. Some people have raised doubts about what they mean by "account". Personally, if it fell into the "yes" category and I had any doubts I would declare it.

That's the best summary I can give: if anyone thinks it is incorrect, please let us know (and why).


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## Gordon Gekko (27 Feb 2017)

Which is utterly ridiculous. The salient point is that an individual is tax compliant. An undisclosed foreign bank account for bona fide reasons shouldn't be of interest to Revenue. Is such a disclosure requirement even compliant with EU law? A current account with Santander in Marbella should be the same as a current account with BOI.


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## edmondantis12 (27 Feb 2017)

Gordon there is no EU law that regulates how a foreign account must be handled , every EU country has its own laws and rules. For example in my original country (EU) if you are tax resident there and have a foreign account (even if it's in another EU country) which goes above 15.000 € in a specific year you must declare it even if you have no tax liabilities.


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## lukas888 (27 Feb 2017)

TD Waterhouse opened a Dublin office some years after the UK ,they were the first discount broker to challenge the Irish broker monopoly and attracted a large clientele.Most investors would have their account opened and based in Ireland.The bank TD Direct use for account deposits IS AIB,but if you nominate your account in sterling or dollars you transfer funds direct to RBS in London.I presume the euro account opened In Ireland is non reportable but the sterling account is.


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## Gordon Gekko (27 Feb 2017)

edmondantis12 said:


> Gordon there is no EU law that regulates how a foreign account must be handled , every EU country has its own laws and rules. For example in my original country (EU) if you are tax resident there and have a foreign account (even if it's in another EU country) which goes above 15.000 € in a specific year you must declare it even if you have no tax liabilities.



Not necessarily relevant. I would question the validity of treating a Portuguese account differently relative to an Irish account in the context of the Treaty of Rome.


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## torblednam (27 Feb 2017)

Gordon Gekko said:


> Not necessarily relevant. I would question the validity of treating a Portuguese account differently relative to an Irish account in the context of the Treaty of Rome.



Do you mean requiring disclosure of it treats it differently? Which Treaty article / fundamental freedom do you think it contravenes?


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## Gordon Gekko (27 Feb 2017)

torblednam said:


> Do you mean requiring disclosure of it treats it differently? Which Treaty article / fundamental freedom do you think it contravenes?



I am not definitively saying that it contravenes it. I'm am simply saying that treating EU good/services differently and "favouring" a good or service in your own country over the same service in another EU country needs to be considered in the context of the Treaty of Rome.

I would be interested to hear what an EU Court would have to say about Irish legislation that imposes a €4,000 fine and a disclosure requirement in respect of an account in Spain/Germany/Portugal, and no such requirement for an Irish account.


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## Palerider (27 Feb 2017)

Not just EU accounts, the net is wider than that.


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## Gordon Gekko (27 Feb 2017)

Palerider said:


> Not just EU accounts, the net is wider than that.



Clearly. Nobody is saying it isn't. EU States are free to discriminate against non-EU good and services as they see fit.

But legislation that discriminates against (say) Portuguese accounts versus Irish accounts?

I'd be surprised if that's not contrary to EU law.


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## newtothis (27 Feb 2017)

Gordon Gekko said:


> Clearly. Nobody is saying it isn't. EU States are free to discriminate against non-EU good and services as they see fit.
> 
> But legislation that discriminates against (say) Portuguese accounts versus Irish accounts?
> 
> I'd be surprised if that's not contrary to EU law.



What good or service provision is being discriminated against by Revenue?

Bank accounts are different, depending on where they are located: Revenue has powers in relation to Irish accounts, but not overseas ones, where it has no jurisdiction. Hence to get the information, it asks for it, though as they point out information exchange between authorities is being enhanced.


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## Gordon Gekko (27 Feb 2017)

I am not definitively saying that there is an issue.

All I'm saying is that I would be interested to hear what the EU would make of Irish legislation which attaches disclosure obligations and a €4,000 fine to (say) Spanish or Portuguese current accounts when no such obligations arise in respect of Irish ones.


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## lukas888 (27 Feb 2017)

54 countries have signed up to report non resident financial activity to each other this year,another 45
from 2018.


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## RichInSpirit (27 Feb 2017)

Revenue is probably being criticized unfairly re offshore accounts. I think this disclosure requirement stems from last years budget which makes Michael Noonan and Fine Gael  the "villains" in this debacle.


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## lukas888 (27 Feb 2017)

No relevance whatsoever.


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## Prittstick (27 Feb 2017)

See the Revenue FAQ, a copy of which has already been posted here (at least twice).


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## torblednam (28 Feb 2017)

Gordon Gekko said:


> I am not definitively saying that it contravenes it. I'm am simply saying that treating EU good/services differently and "favouring" a good or service in your own country over the same service in another EU country needs to be considered in the context of the Treaty of Rome.
> 
> I would be interested to hear what an EU Court would have to say about Irish legislation that imposes a €4,000 fine and a disclosure requirement in respect of an account in Spain/Germany/Portugal, and no such requirement for an Irish account.



I won't profess to be an expert on the application of EU law, but I don't see how requiring a disclosure in a tax return of the existence of an account etc could breach any of the treaty freedoms. It in no way restricts the freedom of movement of capital.


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## Gordon Gekko (28 Feb 2017)

torblednam said:


> I won't profess to be an expert on the application of EU law, but I don't see how requiring a disclosure in a tax return of the existence of an account etc could breach any of the treaty freedoms. It in no way restricts the freedom of movement of capital.



Well arguably it does in that it creates a barrier to opening an EU bank account. It gives preferential treatment to an Irish product/service over an EU one.

We have veered off-topic (my fault).


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## Silvera (7 Mar 2017)

Question with regards to 'foreign account'...a relation of mine (not computer literate) opened a Northern Ireland bank account approximately eight years ago. They put STG£200 into it and the same amount is in it today. No money in or out and no gains from it. 

They say the reason for opening it was down to a fear of the euro collapsing back in 2008/2009. Are they liable to make a disclosure? And if so, would they be hit with 'surcharges' for not declaring it before now (cost of surcharges?)?


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## dub_nerd (7 Mar 2017)

Yes, they should declare it. No, there won't be any penalties.


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