# On expiry of the fixed rate, I chose the SVR because it was cheaper than the tracker!



## zibra82 (29 Jul 2015)

Bronte said:


> If your loan offer states what you have written then you will be able to appel the letter.  I'm sure that PTSB will have missed some customers and there will be more.





ns20413 said:


> Just came off the phone and was told I'm not included in this case and a letter will be sent this week. My case is slightly different to others but was told over the phone that it was because it didn't state in my original loan offer that I was to be put onto a tracker when in fact it does. They won't discuss anything with me until my letter goes out


Hi ns20413 

I was told the same I'm not affected,  because the tracker rate was offered  at the end of fixed rate  period but I  took variable rate, so I said that I've chosen variable rate cause it was better at the time but before i've signed the letter I rang  Ptsb and asked " if I choose variable rate now ( cause its lower) would I be able to get tracker later" and you know what I was told"yes". But when I rang Ptsb when variable rates were going up and ask for tracker back I was told "not available anymore".
my original contract states 3 options :fixed,  variable  and tracker  rate, I have never received letter to say that tracker rate will no longer be available ( which I think should happen...cause any changes made to original contract t&c should be highlighted ) and no information was given in the letter from nov2009 that if I chose variable rate the tracker rate won't be available to me anymore.

I'm so confused  now...don't know what to do.


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## HC2015 (29 Jul 2015)

Guys, just wondering if anyone is in the same situation but further along in the process? I spoke to Padraic Kissane a few weeks ago, my documentation from PTSB finally arrived today and I'll e-mail it to Padraic's office tonight but had a question in the interim.

We did not break out of our fixed term. In Dec 2009 (month before coming off 4.79% fixed rate) we were offered a SVR, Tracker or various fixed rates, detailed below. We went for the Variable, stupidly thinking it was more affordable. Sure enough, within months, the Variable rate shot up and up.







Has anyone in the same boat either been contacted by PTSB or been advised that they're on the bank's "list"?

Just had a look at online banking and next mortgage payment is 03/08 and still at the lofty 4.5% we've been paying.


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## zibra82 (29 Jul 2015)

HC2015 said:


> Guys, just wondering if anyone is in the same situation but further along in the process? I spoke to Padraic Kissane a few weeks ago, my documentation from PTSB finally arrived today and I'll e-mail it to Padraic's office tonight but had a question in the interim.
> 
> We did not break out of our fixed term. In Dec 2009 (month before coming off 4.79% fixed rate) we were offered a SVR, Tracker or various fixed rates, detailed below. We went for the Variable, stupidly thinking it was more affordable. Sure enough, within months, the Variable rate shot up and up.
> 
> ...




Hi 

I'm in the same situation, didn't break fixed rate, got of it in Nov2009, same letter received back in 2009.
 Rang ptsb today not on list and still  on 4.5%. 
I don't know what else I can do. Waiting to hear from Padriac Kissane


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## farfalla (30 Jul 2015)

This is very interesting. When did trackers cease to be offered as a financial product or have they changed since their original inception?


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## Bronte (30 Jul 2015)

HC2015 said:


> Guys, just wondering if anyone is in the same situation but further along in the process? I spoke to Padraic Kissane a few weeks ago, my documentation from PTSB finally arrived today and I'll e-mail it to Padraic's office tonight but had a question in the interim.
> 
> We did not break out of our fixed term. In Dec 2009 (month before coming off 4.79% fixed rate) we were offered a SVR, Tracker or various fixed rates, detailed below. We went for the Variable, stupidly thinking it was more affordable. Sure enough, within months, the Variable rate shot up and up.
> 
> ...


Excellent you attached that, quite clear now why you would pick the variable over the tracker.  That has to have been deliberate.  As in deliberate bank policy to artificially lower the variables to fool people on trackers into taking the variable and once enough customers had done so to hike the variable.

There absolutely has to be emails or bank meetings on this strategy.

(Delete the date you signed the document, you can be identified from your style of writing, it just might be important not to be identified if you are discussing your negotiating strategy on here)


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## Bronte (30 Jul 2015)

farfalla said:


> This is very interesting.  We came off a fixed in 2012 (5 years @ 5.15%); we were on a tracker previously. We have a number of letters from bank stating evidently we were switched from a tracker. The last communication says trackers ceased to be offered on 31/8/09, thus why we could not have it back in 2012. This appears to be factually incorrect by the looks of the scanned document from HC2015.



You cannot compare your situation to another posters documents, everybody is different with many different types of contracts, clauses or options etc.  you need your own documentation, all of it, from the beginning.


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## random2011 (30 Jul 2015)

Bronte said:


> Excellent you attached that, quite clear now why you would pick the variable over the tracker.  That has to have been deliberate.  As in deliberate bank policy to artificially lower the variables to fool people on trackers into taking the variable and once enough customers had done so to hike the variable.
> 
> There absolutely has to be emails or bank meetings on this strategy.
> 
> (Delete the date you signed the document, you can be identified from your style of writing, it just might be important not to be identified if you are discussing your negotiating strategy on here)



I have the very same letter with the very same circumstances. Agree with you Bronte that this was a deliberate attempt to get us off the tracker. 

Has anyone ever heard of a case where the tracker from PTSB or other banks was more expensive than the SVR. It should be noted also that soon after accepting the SVR the number and size of interest rate increases. We had a couple of 0.5% increases, there was a full 1% percent and eventually the rate was at 6.1% I was physically sick the day I heard the rate was jumping by a full 1%. I had never suffered from stress in the past but those years brought me and my wife a lot of worry and stress.


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## Bronte (30 Jul 2015)

Random I can only imagine the stress, but we've seen some very difficult situations down through the years on here, some were suicidal and I've no doubt there were posters who went down that route, marriage breakdown as well etc.  it was hearten wrenching stuff.

Another good point, I wonder at what stage did the SVR go up for all of you.  Was it once the last tracker borrower had signed.

When did they stop sending letters with lower SVR than tracker.

What logic is there to a lower SVR than tracker from a banks point of view.  What is the commercial reason for the offer.  Myself I'm convinced the commercial reason was to get rid of trackers, but the bank have not confirmed it was a deliberate policy to fool customers.


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## ns20413 (30 Jul 2015)

I'm in the exact same situation as the above letter. Was offered a tracker but the variable was lower so choose the variable and was never told that we wouldn't get our tracker back again. This was in 2009 and in July 2010 when the rates went back up I requested a letter with a list of rates and there was no tracker on it.


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## ns20413 (31 Jul 2015)

So basically the people who didn't break out of the fixed rate and stuck with it till the end were offered a tracker and a variable rate and the variable was lower. Obviously your going to pick the lower rate. These people are now being punished for making the right choice at the time. Why would you pay more money for your mortgage?? I believe this was a deliberate attempt to get people to come off the trackers. We also we never told that if we didn't pick the tracker at this time we would be loosing it forever.


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## random2011 (31 Jul 2015)

Would like to add here also a quote from the Consumer Protection Code 
"A regulated entity must ensure that all information provided to the consumer must be clear and comprehensible, and that key items are brought to the attention of the consumer"


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## ns20413 (31 Jul 2015)

It would be interesting to see if anyone was offered a tracker at this time that was lower than the variable? It would be around 2009/2010?


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## random2011 (31 Jul 2015)

With that said I think the bank failed by not clearly indicating that you would lose the right to revert to a tracker when opting for variable in your options letters upon expiry of the fixed rate.
I also believe the margin to which would apply should have been clearly highlighted as the contract does state on the back that tracker rates do not change over the life time of the mortgage and only the ECB rate may change. The ESIS sheet clearly shows the margin and everyone knows the margin in 2006 when trackers were offered were approximately 1% and no-where close to 3.25%


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## AAM_User (31 Jul 2015)

random2011 said:


> The ESIS sheet clearly shows the margin and everyone knows the margin in 2006 when trackers were offered were approximately 1% and no-where close to 3.25%



But what was the ECB rate at the time ?  We took out ours in 2007, but I can't find a historical record of (a) what the ECB was at the time & (b) what the margin PTSB was offering over ECB was at the time.

[I may be using the incorrect terminology in searching]

I contacted the Central Back asking if they'd know what the rates were and they don't keep records of that, which I found unusual.


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## Raging Bull (31 Jul 2015)

People should not get caught up in the ESIS courts won't recognise this...they have already looked at it and said so, Clearly this was a ploy you should raise a complaint with FSO alleging breach of good faith in commercial contract and also per CPC the bank acting in its own interests etc,,, this would not be a good one for the court you could only argue misrepresentation court won't recognise some other consumer protection aspects


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## random2011 (31 Jul 2015)

AAM_User said:


> But what was the ECB rate at the time ?  We took out ours in 2007, but I can't find a historical record of (a) what the ECB was at the time & (b) what the margin PTSB was offering over ECB was at the time.
> 
> [I may be using the incorrect terminology in searching]
> 
> I contacted the Central Back asking if they'd know what the rates were and they don't keep records of that, which I found unusual.



Past ECB rates can be found here.

http://www.ecb.europa.eu/stats/monetary/rates/html/index.en.html

In Oct 2006 the ECB was 3.25%. PTSB margins over the ECB were between 0.85% and 1.25%. If the margin PTSB offered was 3.25% as offered by PTSB this week and again in 2009 upon expiration of the fixed rate then you would have been on 6.5% in 2006 and no bank would have sold a tracker product.


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## AAM_User (31 Jul 2015)

OK, I'm not sure if I'm reading the rates correct.  Going on the above linked rates from the ECB, Which column should I be looking at?  

From what I can make out, when we took our mortgage out in April 2007, the ECB interest rate was 3.75%.  We broke out in February/March 2009 - I'm unsure which date we broke out on because the only communication I have is the instruction to them dated February, but it may not have kicked in until March or April & I don't know what rate that we were supposed to get.

They've put us on 2.3%, Which I'm guessing includes their margin.  The current ECB to them is 0.05 (I think), which would mean the rate they put us on is 2.25%+ECB, but I can't find any rates to suggest they were offering this at the time.


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## random2011 (31 Jul 2015)

Looks like in April 2007 the ECB was 3.75%. The margin you were offered this week is 2.25% as you describe. 

I dont know what the PTSB margin rate was in April 2007% but if it was 2.25% which I highly doubt you would have been paying 6% on your tracker mortgage.

The PTSB margin was more likely approx 1% or maybe less 0.85% which would have meant customers would pay 4.6% or 4.75% But again I dont have the PTSB margin rates for that time exactly but perhaps someone on here does.


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## AAM_User (31 Jul 2015)

I can't find anything to say that they were offering 2.25% in 2009 either.  I know we're lucky enough to get lower than others, but stuck in the middle of the rates that seem to be on offer, I'm wondering if we can get any lower.


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## rachelmce (31 Jul 2015)

AAM_User I am in the same position as you I think. We fixed at the end of March 2007 and we went to the SVR in Jan 2009. I am searching to see the rates too at the time  but cannot find anything!!!!


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## emeralds (31 Jul 2015)

This thread on boards.ie from January 2009 is interesting. Hope it's ok to put in a link...
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055463142


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## Somar (3 Aug 2015)

HC2015 said:


> Guys, just wondering if anyone is in the same situation but further along in the process? I spoke to Padraic Kissane a few weeks ago, my documentation from PTSB finally arrived today and I'll e-mail it to Padraic's office tonight but had a question in the interim.
> 
> We did not break out of our fixed term. In Dec 2009 (month before coming off 4.79% fixed rate) we were offered a SVR, Tracker or various fixed rates, detailed below. We went for the Variable, stupidly thinking it was more affordable. Sure enough, within months, the Variable rate shot up and up.
> 
> ...




Hi HC2015

I am in exact same position and have no doubt what so ever this was a calculated inducement of customers off their trackers by a PTSB mortgage team working behind closed doors in Stephens Green. Took out mortgage March 2007, two yr fixed to run into tracker, but on expiry of fixed options letter arrived in March 2009. SVR was cheaper on the letter than tracker as PTSB were offering (ECB +2.35%), a figure not on original mortgage documents. These percentage margins above the ECB, PTSB were offering depended on the time you came off your fixed rate and were calculated to make SVR more attractive than tracker, hence several customers choose SVR. Customers were never told tracker would not be available again ( another breach). Masding in the firing line but this deceitful mortgage team in Dublin whom calculated and manufactured these false rates to induce people off their trackers are the people who should be sacked.
Already been to FSO and lost but in no mood to give up the fight and will stop at nothing to expose this downright abuse of hard working customers.


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## Raging Bull (3 Aug 2015)

Anyone who lost a case with FSO could take a civil case for fraud... FSO can't. hear cases on fraud so you theoretically are not barred from taking it again...you can't normally take a legal and FSO case at same time so this might be a novel way around that


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## Somar (4 Aug 2015)

Hi Raging Bull

Thanks for this info, have just sent all my docs to Padraic Kissane so will wait to hear back from him. Think straight to the Central Bank is the way to go at this stage!!
I believe their could be 300/350 customers in a similar situation that had their trackers stripped away from them in this most cold and calculated manner. Internal meetings had to have taking place within PTSB Stephens Green to make such adjustments to interest rates and minutes/emails of same must be on record. Have written to CB chief enforcer on that issue.


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## Trooper (5 Aug 2015)

I spoke with PTSB and was told Im not part of the investigation. I had a 3 year fixed rate from 2007 - Feb 2010, I was then offered a tracker variable and LTV variable at 4.25% and 4.15% respectively, I chose the latter although I did call PTSB at the time querying the tracker rate (at the time the ECB was 1%) and was told the margin that tracks the ECB rate would be at the discretion of PTSB so based on that information I chose the LTV variable. I have requested my original loan documents. 

I left the house in February 2015 with my young family and moved to the UK to live and will shortly be declaring bankruptcy, I have had sale agreed on my house since mid February and Im still waiting on PTSB to confirm if they will let me sell the house and what will happen with the residual debt, if there is a reasonable informal solution available (doubtful) I may not have to go bankrupt but maybe this might give me a tiny bargaining chip, thanks for listening


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## Brendan Burgess (7 Aug 2015)

I have just come across [broken link removed] sent by the Financial Regulator to the lenders in August 2010.   They were required to warn people who chose SVRs that they would lose their trackers: 





So it probably won't help most people in this thread. 

Did anyone choose an SVR after August 2010? If you did, I think you would have a great case for getting back your tracker, if they did not give you a letter with the above wording. 

Brendan


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## ns20413 (7 Aug 2015)

I received my letter in April 2009 as my fixed rate was due to expire in May. There was no warning on it that if I chose the variable I would never be offered my tracker again, not even on the small print at the back. 
Thanks for the above Brendan.


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## fuzzy10 (8 Aug 2015)

Brendan Burgess said:


> I have just come across [broken link removed] sent by the Financial Regulator to the lenders in August 2010.   They were required to warn people who chose SVRs that they would lose their trackers:
> 
> View attachment 770
> 
> ...


 
This is the basis of my complaint to both PTSB & the FSO. I switched in 2008.

"_The bank failed to provide the right information to customers in terms of their consequences_... " Jeremy Masding, PTSB

http://www.rte.ie/radio/radioplayer/rteradiowebpage.html#!type=radio&rii=9:20825387:83:05-08-2015:


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## Somar (8 Aug 2015)

I have written to the Department of Enforcement in the Central Bank on this issue and would advise you all to do the same. The more of us that are proactive on this the more likely our cases will be investigated as PTSB will dig their heels in big time on this. Masding is indeed correct the bank failed to inform customers of the correct information.
Each mortgage approval letter has the European Standardised Information Sheet with it. If you are to be charged ECB+2.35% after a two year fixed period it should reflect that on it but it does not. This blatant inducement of customers off their trackers and charging outrageous SVR rates over the last 6 years is borderline on a criminal offence.


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## baldoylebren (10 Aug 2015)

AAM_User said:


> OK, I'm not sure if I'm reading the rates correct.  Going on the above linked rates from the ECB, Which column should I be looking at?
> 
> From what I can make out, when we took our mortgage out in April 2007, the ECB interest rate was 3.75%.  We broke out in February/March 2009 - I'm unsure which date we broke out on because the only communication I have is the instruction to them dated February, but it may not have kicked in until March or April & I don't know what rate that we were supposed to get.
> 
> They've put us on 2.3%, Which I'm guessing includes their margin.  The current ECB to them is 0.05 (I think), which would mean the rate they put us on is 2.25%+ECB, but I can't find any rates to suggest they were offering this at the time.




Hi Do you have the the letter which says what your tracker rate was ?
I am looking to find out what tracker rates were being offered in March 2009.

Hope you can help.

Thanks
Brendan


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## AAM_User (10 Aug 2015)

No letter.


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## Ashejhm (11 Aug 2015)

Hi guys were in a similar situation we took out our mortgage in 2007 fixed rate but came out in 2009 when they were offering for people to go in to svr I'm not sure if I can find any documentation will have a look tomorrow. 

But what do you advise we do who do we contact, I've recieved no correspondence from PTSB so not sure if we're in the redress scheme. Any advice appreciated.


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