# rabo v eagle star



## damo2010 (22 Dec 2010)

Hi,

I have money invested with eagle star... management fee *1%* and governmet levy *1%*......

also i have money invested with rabo direct.... management fee *1.5%* but *no* government levy it seems

are these figures accurate?? 
would i be better looking to invest in etfs??
do i have to pay government levy on etfs??

thanks


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## farmerette (22 Dec 2010)

damo2010 said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have money invested with eagle star... management fee *1%* and governmet levy *1%*......
> 
> ...


 
NO , the 1.5 % charge from rabbo only covers that banks fee , they are only a broker so all their funds come through the likes of JPM , blackrock , robeco , all theese fund managers impose thier own charges and some are up to 5% per anum


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## mercman (22 Dec 2010)

Very very few ETFs managers charge anything more than 1% and these would be specialist funds. The full charges applicable to ETFs are printed fairly and clearly on their fact sheets unlike other investment funds.



damo2010 said:


> I have money invested with eagle star... management fee *1%* and governmet levy *1%*......
> 
> also i have money invested with rabo direct.... management fee *1.5%* but *no* government levy it seems
> 
> ...



The figures you have stated are only the tip of the  iceberg. The real charges are far higher than those quoted. Depending on  the fund choice, they would be classed as far higher than the figures  quoted.The figures quoted could be another 1% higher. Have a look at  this link, which should give you an insight of  charges...http://www.moneyobserver.com/sites/moneyobserver.com/files/fundfee_0.pdf

ETFs are far better ways to invest. Much smaller charges, no exit or entry fees and far more transparant.

The only government levies on ETFs are the stamp duty applicable to them which depends on where the funds are based.


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## farmerette (23 Dec 2010)

mercman said:


> Very very few ETFs managers charge anything more than 1% and these would be specialist funds. The full charges applicable to ETFs are printed fairly and clearly on their fact sheets unlike other investment funds.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

ETF,s can be very risky though , i was recently told by an advisor from standard life that   when you buy a commodity like sugar , oil  or corn as an ETF , you are more  often  than not really buying the price as of december 23 , you could be buying a future price even its not classed as a future in the true sense of the word


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## mercman (23 Dec 2010)

farmerette said:


> ETF,s can be very risky though



This is a rubbish statement. Sure if you go to Las Vegas there is a very strong chance of losing your money. If you invest in an ETF based on equities it in investing in the same equities as the other investment funds. So if you were to purchase an ETF based on commodities the same risks are taken as investing in Commodities in general. Otherwise known as highly volatile. Ordinary ETFs are superb products with low charges.(normally)


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## farmerette (24 Dec 2010)

mercman said:


> This is a rubbish statement. Sure if you go to Las Vegas there is a very strong chance of losing your money. If you invest in an ETF based on equities it in investing in the same equities as the other investment funds. So if you were to purchase an ETF based on commodities the same risks are taken as investing in Commodities in general. Otherwise known as highly volatile. Ordinary ETFs are superb products with low charges.(normally)


 

im glad to hear that opinion is rubbish  as i myself invested in the likes of the jim rogers agri based ETF recently aswell as buying sugar , cattle and grain ETF,S


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## joe sod (24 Dec 2010)

i also got badly burnt with ETFs last year aswell, you are really dealing with the vagaries and peculiarities of futures investments such as contango, in my case it was with the infamous ETF UNG the american natural gas ETF, i saw the price of natural gas almost double last september but my ETF continue to fall due to contango, so i was correct in thinking that gas prices would rise but wrong in choosing this ETF. it was the worst investment i ever made


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## farmerette (27 Dec 2010)

joe sod said:


> i also got badly burnt with ETFs last year aswell, you are really dealing with the vagaries and peculiarities of futures investments such as contango, in my case it was with the infamous ETF UNG the american natural gas ETF, i saw the price of natural gas almost double last september but my ETF continue to fall due to contango, so i was correct in thinking that gas prices would rise but wrong in choosing this ETF. it was the worst investment i ever made


 

so perhaps its mercman who is incorrect in his assesment , i was told that speculators big up the price of commodity ETF,s so in effect todays price may be a price ( or maybe not ) several months down the line , i.e , speculation


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## mercman (27 Dec 2010)

farmerette said:


> so perhaps its mercman who is incorrect in his assesment ,



Excuse me, but any reference I have made is in relation to equities ETFs. For those that wish to play with futures and not knowing the full working matters of these markets and products and how they are traded, one should and must expect to lose money.

,There is little point in blaming the investment product especially when the workings of it was not known in the first instance.


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## farmerette (28 Dec 2010)

mercman said:


> Excuse me, but any reference I have made is in relation to equities ETFs. For those that wish to play with futures and not knowing the full working matters of these markets and products and how they are traded, one should and must expect to lose money.
> 
> ,There is little point in blaming the investment product especially when the workings of it was not known in the first instance.


 
im not refering to either futures or shorts but plenty of people seem to believe that all etf,s ( commoditys )  are futures in some shape or form


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## Marc (28 Dec 2010)

There needs to be some clarity in this post 

There seem to be two contracts being discussed ETCs exchange traded commodities and ETFs exchange traded funds 

These are two different contacts with different characteristics

ETCs and etfs are not the same thing at all whilst I agree that those buying an etc and hoping for the return from the spot price of sugar or gas can often get some nasty shocks  etfs are a totally different animal and to lump them together is just plain wrong.


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## farmerette (29 Dec 2010)

Marc said:


> There needs to be some clarity in this post
> 
> There seem to be two contracts being discussed ETCs exchange traded commodities and ETFs exchange traded funds
> 
> ...


 
im talking about ETF,s and i was told by an investment advisor that commodity etf,s were all about speculation and future price


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## Marc (29 Dec 2010)

Farmerette,

You are not talking about ETFs you are talking about ETCs.

To be clear an Exchange Traded Fund is a "fund" with multiple holdings perhaps in equities or bonds or whatever asset class is being represented.

An ETC (Exchange Traded Commodity) is a position in a single commodity and is NOT actually a fund at all. 

By making this error you invite side arguements which detract from your basic point which as it happens is more or less correct see [broken link removed] for clarification of the point you are making.


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## Marc (29 Dec 2010)

So, how about we answer the OPs question





damo2010 said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have money invested with eagle star... management fee *1%* and governmet levy *1%*......
> 
> ...



Briefly the annual management charge is not all that an investor pays see [broken link removed] for more information on hidden fund costs.

It is slightly easier to understand the hidden costs with the Rabo funds since there is a prospectus document for each fund but I wonder how many people really read these.

Broadly an ETF would be cheaper but you would need a competent investment adviser. Few advisers in Ireland understand ETFs since they do not pay commission. You need a fee only adviser with experience to advise in this area. 

Finally NO you do not pay the government levy on ETFs purchased directly although I have seen investors buying ETFs through an Insurance Contract so that they end up paying the levy and the Insurance Company charges and then the ETF fee on top of this. Great deal! Although NOT for the investor.

I have posted extensively on this subject. 

[broken link removed]


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## farmerette (29 Dec 2010)

Marc said:


> Farmerette,
> 
> You are not talking about ETFs you are talking about ETCs.
> 
> ...


 

ok , forgive my ignorance , im going by what a real invetment group advisor told me in the past few weeks 

guy from standard life must have been confusing etf,s with etc,s , perhaps he wanted me to ditch the etf,s and get into bed with him

 i also appreciate that link you provided


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## mercman (30 Dec 2010)

Thank you Marc for placing clarity on this matter. Now farmerette you are able to see the point I was making. And you listened to a Financial Adviser who no doubt works and earns his living on commission. You ay as well be playing Russian Roulette with your money.

There are enough posts made on AAM concerning the benefits of investing in ETFs versus normal investment funds. If you really wish to give your money away in gees cand charges that is your business.


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## farmerette (31 Dec 2010)

mercman said:


> Thank you Marc for placing clarity on this matter. Now farmerette you are able to see the point I was making. And you listened to a Financial Adviser who no doubt works and earns his living on commission. You ay as well be playing Russian Roulette with your money.
> 
> There are enough posts made on AAM concerning the benefits of investing in ETFs versus normal investment funds. If you really wish to give your money away in gees cand charges that is your business.


 
i accept i was wrong ( or misled ) merc , no need to gloat 

actually , i didnt yet invest anything with any fund ( salesman ) and probabley wont for that matter but surely thier are some decent funds out there ???

the outlook seems fairly possitive next year for the likes of soft commodities so i think il hold on to my surgar and grain ETF,s


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## mercman (31 Dec 2010)

I am certainly not gloating -- not that type of person. I simply am offering an opinion of making the correct and best investments, which can be quite difficult in the marketplace here. Personally I do not chase the best return, but will chase honesty to the core.

As a point of note, I do think India offers good potential in 2011. The best of luck to you in your investing.


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## farmerette (31 Dec 2010)

mercman said:


> I am certainly not gloating -- not that type of person. I simply am offering an opinion of making the correct and best investments, which can be quite difficult in the marketplace here. Personally I do not chase the best return, but will chase honesty to the core.
> 
> As a point of note, I do think India offers good potential in 2011. The best of luck to you in your investing.


 
ok merc , no offense intended 

btw , are thier any particular fund providers which you favour , eagle star , standard life , quinn etc , or are they all much of a muchness


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