# Lease on house will expire in 50 years



## trojan (5 Mar 2016)

Is it vital to take steps to buy out the ground rent  or is there any circumstances where an owner could lose their house if the lease had expired?


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## cremeegg (5 Mar 2016)

Is this in Ireland ?

I wasn't aware that leases of this nature existed in Ireland.

In England leases of 150 200 years are fairly common and many now have less than a lifetime to run. There there is no question of buying out the ground rent except at full value. Buyers know that the purchase is just for a limited time.


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## moneybox (6 Mar 2016)

some info here:   http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/the-thorny-issue-of-landlords-ground-rent-26675609.html

cremeegg - you forget we were ruled by the British for hundreds of years.  I bought a house a few years back with a 500 year lease.


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## cremeegg (6 Mar 2016)

moneybox said:


> cremeegg - you forget we were ruled by the British for hundreds of years.  I bought a house a few years back with a 500 year lease.



I haven't forgotten.

The article you link says "If you own the leasehold interest, usually on foot of a 99-year lease, you own the building but not the land on which it is built." Now I believe this is a typo and should say 999 year lease.

A lease with hundreds of years left to run can be purchased for the capitalised value of the ground rent. Usually very little.

A lease with 50 years to run is a very different matter. Your 500 year lease will exist long after your lifetime and long after the lifetime of your grandchildren. This 50 year lease may expire in the OPs lifetime, very likely in her children's  As far as I know such leases are uncommon or non existent in Ireland.

In England where such leases are common, they are bought and sold frequently. There are often specialist auctions. The prices are significant fractions of the properties value, not some nominal figure, which the Irish ground rents sell for.


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## trojan (6 Mar 2016)

cremeegg said:


> I haven't forgotten.
> 
> The article you link says "If you own the leasehold interest, usually on foot of a 99-year lease, you own the building but not the land on which it is built." Now I believe this is a typo and should say 999 year lease.
> 
> ...


When i checked my own Lease it is for 270 years from 1931 at  rent of 7 old pounds with clauses in it that i cannot keep pigs or fowl on the premises!  My original question was i was curious to know if such a lease  had expired would it be a routine matter of acquiring a fresh lease or acquiring the freehold as if i were buying the ground rent relating to a long lease.


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## Bronte (7 Mar 2016)

I have a leasehold property in Ireland, built in the 1970's.  The ground rent is something like 5 pence, which  has never been paid. I'm allowed buy it out to have freehold and it's a relatively simple process apparently, just never got around to doing it.  I imagine with the new Land Registry that the procedure is even easier, or at least one would hope so.


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## thedaddyman (7 Mar 2016)

Had a similar situation when we bought a house in Kildare 10 years ago. Cost around €1k to buy it out, that included any legal costs. Advice we had got was that if we didn't buy it out it could cause us "issues" when we go to sell in the future. Relatively straightforward to do and we split the cost with the vendor so no big deal


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## Northie (7 Mar 2016)

Thanks for posting as you've reminded me that this is something I also need to sort out 

I looked into it a few years back but put it on the long finger.

You can find more information on how to buy out ground rent here : http://www.prai.ie/guidelines-for-ground-rents-purchase-scheme

I have a vague memory of it being more complicated and costly if there was a "short" period of time left on the lease, but for the life of me can't remember how "short" that was and I don't see anything following a very quick glance through the above site. I do recall a house close to me going sale agreed a number of years ago and the sale falling through as there were problems with the Ground lease expiring. It cost quite a bit to sort out.


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## Bronte (7 Mar 2016)

That's brilliant Northie and one can do it oneself without a solicitor as it refers to personal applicants, something I too must sort out:

Since the 1st of February 2013 *all personal* applicants are required to complete a ‘*Personal Applicant’s Identification Form (ID Form)’.

*


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## Leo (7 Mar 2016)

If it's a former Dublin Council house, see [broken link removed].


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## trojan (7 Mar 2016)

Leo said:


> If it's a former Dublin Council house, see [broken link removed].


In regard to my post no.5 i think i will take steps to buy out the ground rent. For past 20 years or more i have not received any demand and was wondering what i can do about submitting notice to my landlord or agent/solicitor as i am not aware of their identity.


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## Andy836 (7 Mar 2016)

trojan said:


> In regard to my post no.5 i think i will take steps to buy out the ground rent. For past 20 years or more i have not received any demand and was wondering what i can do about submitting notice to my landlord or agent/solicitor as i am not aware of their identity.



You need to find out who the ground rent is payable too.
When my folks bought their house in 1990 they were advised ground rent (10 pounds a year at that time) was payable to Mr XX who can be found in a house YY on road FF. The previous owners didn't know the details nor who the money was ending up with. They forgot to pay it in the 3rd year and no one ever called/demanded payment or said anything. 
When they eventually did remember about it (a decade later) they had their solicitor buy it out on their behalf. It was a nominal amount. 
If memory serves me right most of the estates collecting these rents no longer exist or don't have any records so they're almost irrelevant. For peace of mind it might be worthwhile getting your solicitor to sort it out.


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## Leo (8 Mar 2016)

trojan said:


> In regard to my post no.5 i think i will take steps to buy out the ground rent. For past 20 years or more i have not received any demand and was wondering what i can do about submitting notice to my landlord or agent/solicitor as i am not aware of their identity.



Mine was DCC and had similar clauses to yours on keeping animals. If you've seen that, to Andy's point, you know who the rent is payable to. If it's DCC or another local authority, follow their process, if not, follow Northie's link. Mine cost ~€40 all in, but that was ~10 years ago.


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## trojan (8 Mar 2016)

Leo said:


> Mine was DCC and had similar clauses to yours on keeping animals. If you've seen that, to Andy's point, you know who the rent is payable to. If it's DCC or another local authority, follow their process, if not, follow Northie's link. Mine cost ~€40 all in, but that was ~10 years ago.


I have a copy of the original    Lease but this mentions the Lessors and Lessees at the time and as this was in the thirties i dont know how i can find who are now the legal owners of the freehold


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## Leo (8 Mar 2016)

trojan said:


> I have a copy of the original    Lease but this mentions the Lessors and Lessees at the time and as this was in the thirties i dont know how i can find who are now the legal owners of the freehold



PRAI should be able to help you so, it'll be registered on the deeds.


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## Codogly (8 Mar 2016)

Just curious to know has anyone ever heard of Ground Rent Leases running out and if so what happened...?

I've never heard of a case where the Lessor was able to enforce payment of rent or buyout of lease ...anyone know of such a case...?

Personnally i receive 5 letter each year denanding payment of Ground Rent about 20 euro ish also offering a buy out option approx 600 euro.  The 5 letter each year offer a 30% discount on the buy out.  This routine has been going on now for 16 years and i simply ignore it and nothing happens.


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## Leo (8 Mar 2016)

Codogly said:


> Just curious to know has anyone ever heard of Ground Rent Leases running out and if so what happened...?
> 
> I've never heard of a case where the Lessor was able to enforce payment of rent or buyout of lease ...anyone know of such a case...?
> 
> Personnally i receive 5 letter each year denanding payment of Ground Rent about 20 euro ish also offering a buy out option approx 600 euro.  The 5 letter each year offer a 30% discount on the buy out.  This routine has been going on now for 16 years and i simply ignore it and nothing happens.



Might be a lot easier and cheaper if you sort this out sooner rather than later. From the PRAI site:



> *29.4* Where the lease has expired, and the property has not “by operation of law” on the expiry of the lease become a yearly tenancy, subsection 4 applies instead of subsection 5. The amount of the purchase price is thereby fixed at one eighth of the market value of the premises if sold in fee simple with vacant possession.


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## Codogly (8 Mar 2016)

Thanks Leo for you reply ... however my original question stands and indeed extends to 29.4 above ...has anyone actually ever been successfully sue lessor for ground rent and or indeed the 1/8 land value on an expired lease ...?

I dont know the answer but i suspect the answer is NO.

Afterall is Ground Rent simply not a right to rental income derived from stolen land...!!!... anyone or firm or pension fund who sebsequently purchased that right was buying stolen property...?


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## thedaddyman (8 Mar 2016)

Some additional information here for people
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/owning_a_home/home_owners/ground_rent.html

and don't forget Noel O'Gara

anhttp://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/columnists/michael-clifford/squire-of-the-square-was-never-boring-216346.htmld don't forget Noel O'Gara


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## Leo (8 Mar 2016)

Where are you getting the stolen land piece from?  

I'm not aware of anyone being foolish enough to test that out, and the only legal guidance I can find online strongly advises sorting this issue out before the final 15 years at which stage it will become increasingly more expensive.


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## postman pat (5 Jul 2016)

I have been contacted by a firm of solicitors about signing over the leasehold on a site sold by my mother 40 years ago.The people are selling the house now and want it sorted as I believe they have a buyer ,My mother is now deceased.I am just wondering where i stand, as I believe rent should have been paid yearly to my mother/family.


Pat


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## cremeegg (5 Jul 2016)

postman pat said:


> I have been contacted by a firm of solicitors about signing over the leasehold on a site sold by my mother 40 years ago.The people are selling the house now and want it sorted as I believe they have a buyer ,My mother is now deceased.I am just wondering where i stand, as I believe rent should have been paid yearly to my mother/family.
> 
> 
> Pat



This is not very clear, did your mother own the free hold and sell a lease ?

If so, what term is the lease for.


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## postman pat (6 Jul 2016)

Hi Cremeegg,
                    The short answer is I dont know, she sold the land as a site and the person who bought it built on it, and the solicitor has suggested we sell the leasehold for a nominal fee,if this is the correct thing to do,I would have no problem with it


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