# Over due management fees



## lorraine2008 (1 Sep 2008)

I have a question in relation to managment fees that I have been billed for for the last 7 years. i purchased an apartment in 1999. I paid 2 years managment fees. There was no management company available on year 3 when I did actually need them as i had fire damage in my apartment. I tried for months to get in touch with them , and it so happens that they were not in operation and nothing was being done about it. Almost like we were abandoned. So needless to say I stopped paying the direct debit for the management fee. i havent paid it some years now, and the other owners have rounded up a new management company. This company seem to have good intentions, and have been operating since early 2007. they are trying to get me to back pay the years that I didnt pay. I am telling them that there was no management in place and in so far as I had to pay for fire damage etc at the time, and was at a loss for rent due to noise pollution etc not being sorted out. I agreed to pay 2007, which I did and the director of the management agreed that he would address this and we could perhaps work out something to clear the account. I keep getting letters now from their solictors saying that they are going to pursue this to get full payment. What can I do? Is there anything I can do to resolve this? Other than pay the arrears for €5500? Any advice much appreciated.


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## shesells (1 Sep 2008)

What does your contract/lease agreement say? If at purchase you signed a legal document saying you would pay management fees then you are indeed liable and could face legal action to recover these. You could counter-sue based on your experience but at this time you need to go through your paperwork and think about consulting a solicitor.


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## dem_syhp (1 Sep 2008)

lorraine2008 said:


> There was no management company available on year 3 when I did actually need them as i had fire damage in my apartment. I tried for months to get in touch with them , and it so happens that they were not in operation and nothing was being done about it. Almost like we were abandoned.


 
Did it occur to you to do anything about it? You are a member of the company. Go talk with the other residents, address the problem as a goup (as some of the other residents appear to have in the end) 



lorraine2008 said:


> I am telling them that there was no management in place and in so far as I had to pay for fire damage etc at the time, and was at a loss for rent due to noise pollution etc not being sorted out.


 
You may be able to negotiate for the fire damage, but I'm confused as to why this wasn't covered by your insurace (or if you'd no company, did you have any?) You should still have been able to contact them directly. Did you try contacting any of the directors (that YOU voted in) at the time to see if they could help you get a copy of the insurance policy? 

- Now don't get me wrong, I've had problems with my own at different stages. But in the end, the management fee covers a service that I need. It's a lease I've signed up to and need to pay. I go to the AGM's, etc... I'm not waiting for someone else to do it. Being part of the management company, as a member or a director, is part of apartment living.


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## lorraine2008 (1 Sep 2008)

The other members of the block only bought them in the last 2 years or so, so are only liable for the fees since they bought the apartment. Except for 1 or 2 of the other owners, who didnt have any need to contact them at the time, so I suppose didnt notice that there wasnt one in place. The insurance for the fire damage was under the management companies insurance, ( i checked this with my own insurance at the time) and the main problem was that there was no management company to contact. all numbers were invalid and there was no forwarding numbers or email to contact in place of the initial company. i will go through paperwork and see if i agreed to pay all management fees as an owner. if thats the case then i suppose i will have to just pay it. it seems very unfair, but if its the law, then i have no choice.


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## Yorrick (2 Sep 2008)

Clearly for the last number of years someone was paying Insurance, Waste Disposal etc. It may as is often the case not be an actual Management Company but some agency are able to give the new Management Company the names of those who had not paid a Management Fee.
The fact that there was poor management does not excuse you from being liable. I suggest that some negotiations may result in you paying a reduced amount. You did after all avail of refuse, insurance, lighting of the common areas. 
And as one contributor said you are a member of the Company.

I suggets that you also get a copy of the book Apartment living in Ireland by Robert Gogan, Barrister. It is an excellent guide to all the issues affecting Apartment living.

However


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## ClubMan (2 Sep 2008)

The _NCA_ (www.consumerconnect.ie) also have some consumer information about management companies and privately managed developments.


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## csirl (3 Sep 2008)

> You could counter-sue based on your experience but at this time you need to go through your paperwork and think about consulting a solicitor.


 
Have you spoken to the management company and mentioned you possible entitlement to sue them? Surely if they have any sense, they'd come to an arrangement with you rather than incurring legal fees.


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## CripSambo (30 Sep 2008)

Lorraine2008
They should all be boycotted.  Dont pay it, I know lots of people who have not and will not pay it.  These shower of cowboys are completely unregulated. There is NOTHING to stop them charging you 4k per year, do we wait till then before we act? 
As Martin Cahil said, they dont need balaclavas to rob you, they come in the bloody letterbox.
I've not paid in 4 years and am not paying it anyway.  I have a onebed dogbox that you cant swing a cat in which I got off the "affordable housing".  My fee is 1,200.(ye just gotta laugh).   COMPLETELY disprortional to other apartments. I throw one maybe two carrier bags of rubbish out per week and because I can "access" my windows, I've to clean them myself!! The 2 and 3 bedrooms with two incomes are 1,300 per year.
I agree, a management fee must be paid, fair enough but it should be fair/proportional/regluated and not geard for profit.  I think the council should be managing these.
Ignore dem_syhp with his/her saracastic remark.  This forum is for people who dont like management companies.
Let me finish of by saying, I had no say in the management company, I didn't agree to the terms and conditions of the management fee but the solicitor said, if you dont sign, you dont get the apartment.  These guys have amazing powers.  So, ... your damned if you do and your damed if you dont.  We all need somewhere to live.  They know that and exploit it.


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## DennisSabre (30 Sep 2008)

CripSambo said:


> Lorraine2008
> Let me finish of by saying, I had no say in the management company, I didn't agree to the terms and conditions of the management fee but the solicitor said, if you dont sign, you dont get the apartment.


 
As an owner, you are a member of the management company and you do have a say and a responsibility to ensure that the management company functions properly. You can attend AGM's/EGM's and even become a director. I wonder if people are confusing management companies with managing agents. From experience, most problems that owners feel they're experiencing are casued by a lack of knowledge about the management structure.


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## mathepac (30 Sep 2008)

DennisSabre said:


> ... I wonder if people are confusing management companies with managing agents. From experience, most problems that owners feel they're experiencing are casued by a lack of knowledge about the management structure.



There have been a number of attempts by AAMers (mods / staff / posters) to clarify the differences. I guess some posters don't seem to understand.


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## DennisSabre (30 Sep 2008)

Essential reading for all apartment owners:

http://www.consumerconnect.ie/eng/Hot_Topics/Campaigns/Management Companies Booklet.pdf

[broken link removed]

Maybe the government should introduce a test for potential purchasers. Imagine having to pass test to buy an apartment. Sounds ridiculous but it would solve so many problems.


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## shesells (2 Oct 2008)

CripSambo said:


> Lorraine2008
> They should all be boycotted. Dont pay it, I know lots of people who have not and will not pay it. These shower of cowboys are completely unregulated. There is NOTHING to stop them charging you 4k per year, do we wait till then before we act?
> As Martin Cahil said, they dont need balaclavas to rob you, they come in the bloody letterbox.
> I've not paid in 4 years and am not paying it anyway.
> ...


 
Did you actually read the documents you signed at purchase. In response to the points raised:


Management fees should not be boycotted, if people don't pay how will refuse be collected, how will buildings be insured?
You haven't paid in 4 years. That would leave you open to legal action to claim the fees and end up having to pay all these costs on top of the fees. You won't be able to sell your "shoebox" without these being paid.
Profit? Are you mixing up management agents and management companies again? Management agents are commercial. Management companies are collective bodies made up of all the owners in any development. You are a member of this company. You are responsible for a share of any liabilities of this company if it runs out of cash. Management companies cannot make a profit, they can and should contribute to a sinking fund designed to cover future significant expenses such as external painting, carpeting in communal areas etc.
"This forum is for people who don't like management companies" - eh no! This forum is for people who want information and clarification on management companies. It's not necessarily negative. I'm not 100% keen on our management agent but have total faith in the management company because I'm an active member. I don't trust anyone else to look after my investment.
As pointed out by another poster, you have a say in the management company, you are a member. Time to dig out your purchase documents for starters, read what you signed, it's a good starting place.


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## ClubMan (2 Oct 2008)

Well said. If somebody just wants to rant about management companies/agents/fees or whatever then they should wait until they have privileges to post in _Letting Off Steam_.


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## AKA (11 Oct 2008)

Even if you don't like management companies/agents and are in a housing estate, they are a necessary evil until the housing estate is handed over to the local authority.

Even then if the local authority doesn't administer a grass cutting scheme  should a voluntary residents association be responsible for collecting grass cutting fees?  Hence, one could argue that an agent be retained, depending on the size of the estate, even if TIC.


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