# Would you vote for a FF candidate if  . . .



## NorthDrum (18 May 2009)

Just curious. If there was a general election tomorrow.

If you had a FF candidate that you knew was really good for your constituancy and worked really hard in their Job, would you vote for them. 

Or 

Would you rather vote for any other party because you cant stomach the current guys in power.


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## UptheDeise (18 May 2009)

I wouldn't vote in Fianna Fail, or Fine Gael or labour or the Greens or Sinn Fein.... I'm going to vote an independent.

Quite frankly, they're all useless.


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## DavyJones (18 May 2009)

In our local elections I know the two of the FF lads really well. They are both passionate about the area and are good men. Can't bring myself to vote for them, am a bit torn about it.


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## Vanilla (18 May 2009)

The only reason I could see to vote for FF would be if the only alternative was SF. 

I will be voting FG and Labour.


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## Lex Foutish (18 May 2009)

As I stated in another thread, I voted F.F. the last time round. (It seems to me, at times ,that I was the only one who did so!  ) I blame them for a huge amount of the mess the country is in at the moment, I think that they have become arrogant beyond belief and feel they need to be sent packing to the opposition benches asap. 

However, I don't believe for one minute that any of the other parties would have done much differently during the illusive Celtic Tiger years. I lost all respect for Enda Kenny when he went back on his "populist nonsense" remark a day later and Eamonn Gilmore has spent the last few days demanding that we govern the country according to opinion polls.

Would I still vote for a FF candidate if he/she was a good constituency worker and worked hard at the job? Yes, I think I would. (Maybe there's a bit of a contradiction there). My alternatives in Cork South Central aren't that great, really! 

I normally vote for Micheál Martin. I'd consider doing so again, if for no other reason than he totally faced down the anti-smoking ban lobby group. He's also a very good constituency worker.

I know one of the local FF councillors quite well and will vote for him. If I didn't know him, I wouldn't vote FF in the Local Elections.

All the European candidates are being asked on radio at the moment why they want to be a M.E.P. 

If any of them was honest enough to come out and admit that they were only doing it for the money, they'd get my No. 1.


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## MrMan (18 May 2009)

I would vote for the strongest candidate in the area, it is pointless voting for a party in local elections if the local candidate is useless.


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## S.L.F (18 May 2009)

Lex Foutish said:


> I'm partly responsible for the mess the country is in


 
One of the big things people seem for forget is that it was FG and Lab who brought the Tiger not FF so in my book they would have made a better job of looking after the economy that the FF bunch.

The problem with FF is it doesn't matter who you vote for with them the party tells them what to do.


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## Lex Foutish (18 May 2009)

I think I was misquoted and quoted out of context!!!!! Maybe I should be a politician and you should be a tabloid reporter, S.L.F!!!!!


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## johnd (18 May 2009)

I could never vote for a F.F. person. I really believe the party is beyond redemption and that to be a member suggests a certain moral weakness. "They can't help it in their DNA"  so to speak.  I'm sure at an individual level there are some nice  people but as a party they are awful.


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## micheller (18 May 2009)

At the moment, no matter how good the FF candidate was I couldn't bring myself to vote for them. The local election candidates roll up into the greater party, right up to the top, and show the party the support they have within the country as a whole. So, no, I won't be supporting this FF government or their recent choices.
I reckon I'll be a Labour and FG vote this time, we have a really good local FG & Labour candidates so will be happy to show support for him.


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## NorthDrum (18 May 2009)

I purposely didnt put in what I would do to gauge a response I expected.

I understand the thinking behind not voting FF at all costs but I think this also highlights a great problem with politics in Ireland thats costing us all dearly.

Basically you are never voting for an individual, however good, in an election, if they are associated with a party. I could vote for the greatest , most educated politician in the world, with the greatest ideas and they would still be bound by the old "vote yes on every government suggestion" irrespective of how they felt. It means that great politicians can only truely get their voice and experienced ideas heard when they are near the top of the ladder.

This is really a crying shame as I feel we will (as a nation) end up voting in people who are perhaps not as good as another candidate simply because we dont like a party as opposed to a candidates credentials to do a good job. I dont blame anybody for being so angry with FF that they wouldnt vote for them, but at the end of the day, the country will not be run successfully with politicians elected out of spite towards their rivals.

The main point of this discussion is that there is no motivation for people to vote for the best candidate under the current political setup. How can we believe that we can have a successful country, long term, if the best people arent necessarily the ones we want in charge.!!!

I fear that we will end up stumbling from making one mistake to another. This is one of the main reasons that there is so much hopeless feelings among so many. They trust the alternative to FF as much as they do FF themselves, this is just not good enough . .

On a sidenote, in terms of educating the public and trying to get a new system in place were people make informed decisions, I think our media has to also consider its position. I heard Newstalk misquote Gormely last week (it shows how easily media fabricates stories). He basically said that when people are angry they can make irrational decisions. Thats actually as true a statement that there is and not really a revelation. They reported it that Gormely said the Irish People were irrational. Im sorry, its this sort of garbage that makes me sick. This is hypocracy at its best, they say its wrong for government to dress things up the way they see fit, but the media has carte blanche to take whatever they want out of a statement and twist it to suit their own agenda, this can be just as distructive when trying to make progress.


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## Lex Foutish (18 May 2009)

At the next election the current Government will be wiped out and we'll have a new one. They'll come in and will have to continue chopping and cutting like the current Government. And they'll have to take the tough decisions that they don't have to take in opposition. And at the following election, they'll be so hated that FF will come charging back like knights in shining armour. 

That's presuming that, to use an Ian Paisley term, Labour don't "sup with the Devil" and do a deal with FF like they did in the past. They won't make the the same mistake of making a pre election pact with FG next time around after paying the price for it last time. Will Eamonn Gilmore categorically rule out coalition with FF? Totally and absolutely? 

We live in very interesting times. Prediction anybody...................?


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## quarterfloun (19 May 2009)

I'd vote for the Nazi Party before I'd vote FF but I've always distrusted them more than the rest. Jobs for the boys, Charlie taking Brian Lenihans operation money etc. Cannot stomach FF - not now not never. Independent all the way - maybe even Libertas even though I am pro Europe. Anything but FF!!!


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## Caveat (19 May 2009)

Vanilla said:


> The only reason I could see to vote for FF would be if the only alternative was SF.
> 
> I will be voting FG and Labour.


 
Exactly the same for me.


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## UptheDeise (19 May 2009)

Lex Foutish said:


> As I stated in another thread, I voted F.F. the last time round. (It seems to me, at times ,that I was the only one who did so!  ) I blame them for a huge amount of the mess the country is in at the moment, I think that they have become arrogant beyond belief and feel they need to be sent packing to the opposition benches asap.
> 
> However, I don't believe for one minute that any of the other parties would have done much differently during the illusive Celtic Tiger years. I lost all respect for Enda Kenny when he went back on his "populist nonsense" remark a day later and Eamonn Gilmore has spent the last few days demanding that we govern the country according to opinion polls.
> 
> ...


 
But he allowed the pro smoking lobby group to get their own way. By the way, second hand smoking doesn't cause cancer. It is a myth.


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## liaconn (19 May 2009)

No way would I vote FF. Apparently Shay Brennan was very impressive on Vincent Browne last week and a lot of people in the area are saying its an awful pity he's running for FF, as they'd definitely vote for him otherwise.


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## Howitzer (19 May 2009)

liaconn said:


> No way would I vote FF. Apparently Shay Brennan was very impressive on Vincent Browne last week and a lot of people in the area are saying its an awful pity he's running for FF, as they'd definitely vote for him otherwise.


? I thought he was dreadful.

In response to the OP. I'd have no problem voting for FF if I felt the candidate was competent, honest and the best available person for the job. I don't really think party politics make much of a difference when it gets down to the nuts and bolts of running a Country / County Council / Town Coucil.

Ultimately if you get 160 honest, competent individuals into the Dail they'll work out whatever compromises need to be made to run the country.

However if you REALLY wanted to see FF out the door, and your vote is in the North west Eurpoean constituency, then your best bet would be to vote FF Number 1 for Pat "the Cope" Gallagher. If he's elected to Europe he'll have to give up his Dail seat, reducng the FF majority by 1 and possibly 2 if someone else wins the following By Election.


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## johnd (19 May 2009)

Totally agree with Quarterfloun, Caveat and Vanilla - not now never, never, never

As for Shay Brennan - just another example of the nepotism that is rife in Irish politics, particularly Fiann Fail.  Seems to be if a son or daughter cannot make it in the real world the family shove them into politics. Better than hanging around the streets I suppose. Don't vote for them


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## bamboozle (19 May 2009)

never have never will.

what has suprised me with the local elections is more FF candidates didnt up sticks and leave the party and stand on an independent ticket.
What suprises me even more is that i would have expected a lot more independent candidates who have been affected by the recession like ex waterford crystal workers in waterford, ex-dell in Limerick etc etc

given the choice between FF and SF i think i'd have to emigrate.


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## bamboozle (19 May 2009)

johnd said:


> Totally agree with Quarterfloun, Caveat and Vanilla - not now never, never, never
> 
> As for Shay Brennan - just another example of the nepotism that is rife in Irish politics, particularly Fiann Fail. Seems to be if a son or daughter cannot make it in the real world the family shove them into politics. Better than hanging around the streets I suppose. Don't vote for them


 

if you want to see nepotism in its truest form, drive along the coast road at Clontarf and you'll see posters for Ivor Callelly's son who looks likes he's auditioning for X factor, on his posters he has a logo for facebook which is bigger than the logo for FF


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## johnd (19 May 2009)

Bamboozle - I think some already are Independents judging from their posters where it like spot the ball to see the name Fianna Fail


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## liaconn (19 May 2009)

bamboozle said:


> if you want to see nepotism in its truest form, drive along the coast road at Clontarf and you'll see posters for Ivor Callelly's son who looks likes he's auditioning for X factor, on his posters he has a logo for facebook which is bigger than the logo for FF


 
Gene Kerrigan had a brilliant article about that in the Sunday Independent.

I think the guy is about 22. How on earth would he have the experience, wisdom or common sense to become involved in running the country. It is an absolute joke.


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## csirl (19 May 2009)

liaconn said:


> Gene Kerrigan had a brilliant article about that in the Sunday Independent.
> 
> I think the guy is about 22. How on earth would he have the experience, wisdom or common sense to become involved in running the country. It is an absolute joke.


 
His father was a terrible TD and an even worse Junior Minister. So based on the fact that he has approx. half his father's DNA (poor fellow), its a safe bet that he doesnt have the genetic make-up to be a good public representative.


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## csirl (19 May 2009)

Incidently, the c.40% of the population who voted for FF in the last election - how do you feel now about your vote and the implications it had for the future of this country?


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## liaconn (19 May 2009)

csirl said:


> His father was a terrible TD and an even worse Junior Minister. So based on the fact that he has approx. half his father's DNA (poor fellow), its a safe bet that he doesnt have the genetic make-up to be a good public representative.


 
Apparently his slogan is something like 'we need change'.

Too true. I will be taking his advice on that one.


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## johnd (19 May 2009)

Shay Brennan is actually 35 years old! Am I the ony one who thinks he looks terrified all the time? All that responsibility on such young shoulders I suppose, all those family expectations...


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## cork (19 May 2009)

NorthDrum said:


> Just curious. If there was a general election tomorrow.


 

Without a doubt.

FG are even now coming around to support government policy on banks.



> I think the guy is about 22. How on earth would he have the experience, wisdom or common sense to become involved in running the country. It is an absolute joke


 
He has a background in econonics.

Far Better than the teaching qualifications of many TDs like Enda Kenny.


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## liaconn (19 May 2009)

How much 'background' can he have at 22. He could only be straight out of College at that age.


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## johnd (19 May 2009)

Cork - in Shay's own words he was/is "an ordinary bank clerk"  so not much experience in anything except working in a bank.  He has never shown any interest in politics before his father's death. When asked if he and his father had discussed his entering politics he replied  "not really, no". He is only there because of his surname


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## Mouldy (19 May 2009)

Ignoring SF and the other crazies, can you really believe that FG/Lab would be any better? I'm no fan of the FF brigade but some of the statements coming from Kenny and from Joan Burton in particular go to show what we have waiting for us if they get elected to government.

If we leave the shower we have now where they are for another couple of years I think they will do as good a job as anyone else in pulling the country through the worst of it. If there was an election tomorrow, then the new Government would spend the next few years gving the excuse "ah sure we only inherited this mess, its not our fault that we can't get it right..."

Also, did the IT misquote George Lee when he said "I have no money in the bank. The only money I have I put into a pension fund which has fallen by 40%"

And this guy is running on the back of his ecomomic prowess having seen this crisis coming?

M


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## Vanilla (19 May 2009)

The problem with any political thread is the old 'devil can cite scripture for his purpose' idea. 

Anyone with FF leanings is going to say- oh sure if FG, Labour or anyone else was in power during the boom they would have made a mess of it too. Or- sure FG and Labour are just as bad, what's the point in changing now.

People who have a deepseated loyalty to one party will find a reason to vote for that party.

It's people without this loyalty that will change parties- probably the younger and urban population that we will see the biggest shift in. 

I only hope that people won't vent their ire in the council elections and have it forgotten by the time a general election comes along.


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## Pique318 (19 May 2009)

Mouldy said:


> If we leave the shower we have now where they are for another couple of years I think they will do as good a job as anyone else in pulling the country through the worst of it. If there was an election tomorrow, then the new Government would spend the next few years gving the excuse "ah sure we only inherited this mess, its not our fault that we can't get it right..."
> 
> M



That's exactly the kind of thinking that FF are banking on ('scuse the pun).

I don't agree...kick 'em out, let FG in and we'll see Richard Bruton stake his place as the next good leader. Kenny is a liability for FG and I think FG know it.


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## TarfHead (19 May 2009)

Vanilla said:


> People who have a deepseated loyalty to one party will find a reason to vote for that party.


 
Good point. I was talking politics with a colleague, years ago, from NE Donegal. His view was that if FF ran a donkey on the party ticket, people from his town would vote for it.

My local constituency/ward was unusual 5 years ago in that no FF candidate was elected. Even though the boundaries are now different, I can't see that changing. And in the GE, one of the FF TDs was shown the door in favour of an empty suit from FG.


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## liaconn (19 May 2009)

Mouldy said:


> Ignoring SF and the other crazies, can you really believe that FG/Lab would be any better? I'm no fan of the FF brigade but some of the statements coming from Kenny and from Joan Burton in particular go to show what we have waiting for us if they get elected to government.
> 
> If we leave the shower we have now where they are for another couple of years I think they will do as good a job as anyone else in pulling the country through the worst of it. If there was an election tomorrow, then the new Government would spend the next few years gving the excuse "ah sure we only inherited this mess, its not our fault that we can't get it right..."
> 
> ...


 
But if you vote them back in, its like rewarding them for the mess they've made of things. And I really don't think the other parties are as bad for 'croneyism' as FF.


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## redstar (19 May 2009)

I think FFs choice of by-election candidates speaks volumes for the way they do things.
The son of a former minister and brother of an ex-taoiseach. In both cases trying to preserve the respective dynasties.

But what does it say about the electorate who will actually vote for people because of who they are related to ?  Ye get what ye deserve 

Even Labour are not immune to this, unfortunately. I got one of those 'Litir um Thogain' (Freepost letter) from Nessa Childers, the Labour Euro candidate. 
The first line reads;      " My father, ex-president Erskine Childers ..."

At local level i'll vote for whoever does good work for the local area. I don't care which party they belong to, even <shudder> SF.


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## Mpsox (19 May 2009)

csirl said:


> Incidently, the c.40% of the population who voted for FF in the last election - how do you feel now about your vote and the implications it had for the future of this country?


 

I'm one of the 40% so let me try and answer that question. Perhaps firstly, why did I vote FF. Lots of reasons

Partially family history, my family have always voted FF, the local TD is from the same parish (and is a good local politician and a decent man who has helped us in the past). In addition, the ancestors of the local FG politicians fired guns at my ancestors, don't underestimate the impact that memory that has in rural areas.
Partially their performance in the past, FF did deliver the most prosperous period in Irish history, they did play a major role in the peace process and as an ex-emigrent, if it wasn't for the Celtic Tiger I'd still be living on foreign soil.
Partially the competition was largely non existant. I have no time for Enda Kenny as I think he doesn't have an original thought in his head. Pat Rabbitte gave me the impression of being nothing more then FGs *****, PDs were nothing more then right wing turncoats and Sinn Fein's armed wing pointed guns at my wife when they robbed her, blew up the head office of my last employers at Bishopsgate and shook my house when the Canary Wharf bomb went off.
So was I right to vote FF?. Probably not in hindsight but hindsight is a wonderful thing. In fairness, some of the issues were out of their control, it's not FF fault that the housing market in the US plunged for example. What has disappointed me is the lack of leadership from Cowan, the perception I have that Lenihan is making it up as he goes along, Coughlin is out of her depth and so on and so forth and ultimately the fact that they blew it. 

Howver I also remain to be convinced that other parties would have done things radically better. In fairness, they may have done but can we say for certain they would have.? 

So who am I going to vote for in the upcoming elections. It's difficult because I have moved house since the last election and am in a different constituency. 
Instinct and Enda Kenny means I won't vote FG, (bar possibly a number 2 for Mairead McGuiness in the Euro). At the minute I am leaning towards voting Labour in the local elections, 2 reasons, firstly the candidate is actually the only counciler to date who has knocked on my door and secondly, he is the only canvesser who closed the front gate after him, and given that I have a toddler and a Jack Russel, closing the front gate is important in my world !!!!


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## Vanilla (19 May 2009)

Mpsox said:


> I'm one of the 40% so let me try and answer that question. Perhaps firstly, why did I vote FF. Lots of reasons
> 
> Partially family history, my family have always voted FF, the local TD is from the same parish (and is a good local politician and a decent man who has helped us in the past). In addition, the ancestors of the local FG politicians fired guns at my ancestors, don't underestimate the impact that memory that has in rural areas.
> Partially their performance in the past, FF did deliver the most prosperous period in Irish history, they did play a major role in the peace process and as an ex-emigrent, if it wasn't for the Celtic Tiger I'd still be living on foreign soil.
> ...


 

You can't have it both ways- that FF were responsible for the boom times through careful and diligent planning but not somehow responsible for the recession.


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## Mpsox (19 May 2009)

Vanilla said:


> You can't have it both ways- that FF were responsible for the boom times through careful and diligent planning but not somehow responsible for the recession.


 
Where in my comment did I say FF had carried out careful and diligent planning? I simply stated 2 things, firstly that they delivered the most prosperous period in Irish history (which is a fact) and that they blew it (which is also a fact).


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## Caveat (19 May 2009)

Mpsox said:


> FF did deliver the most prosperous period in Irish history,


I would argue that they _presided_ over this period rather than delivered it - big difference IMO.

Arguably, FG/Lab deserve the credit for being responsible for the general upward trend in the economy - but a different argument I guess, and OT.

Ultimately, you have hit the nail on the head though with the old historical FF/FG pro & anti treaty allegiances.  That it can be more likely that a FF supporter will switch to SF over FG speaks volumes IMO.


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## micheller (19 May 2009)

NorthDrum said:


> Basically you are never voting for an individual, however good, in an election, if they are associated with a party. I could vote for the greatest , most educated politician in the world, with the greatest ideas and they would still be bound by the old "vote yes on every government suggestion" irrespective of how they felt.



If that individual is so wonderful, they can always choose to go independent. They don't have to choose a party like FF with all it's connotations. 



NorthDrum said:


> I dont blame anybody for being so angry with FF that they wouldnt vote for them, but at the end of the day, the country will not be run successfully with politicians elected out of spite towards their rivals.


It isn't out of spite, it's because of what FF stand for that I don't vote for them.



NorthDrum said:


> On a sidenote, in terms of educating the public and trying to get a new system in place were people make informed decisions


Aside from a political system overhaul (is that what you mean?) the current system is the one in place and I vote in accordance with that system. I currently don't need re-education on my views


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## Mpsox (19 May 2009)

Caveat said:


> I would argue that they _presided_ over this period rather than delivered it - big difference IMO.
> 
> Arguably, FG/Lab deserve the credit for being responsible for the general upward trend in the economy - but a different argument I guess, and OT.
> 
> Ultimately, you have hit the nail on the head though with the old historical FF/FG pro & anti treaty allegiances. That it can be more likely that a FF supporter will switch to SF over FG speaks volumes IMO.


 
It's potentially a fair comment and a discussion for another post as to who was responsible for the Celtic Tiger

As for a FF voter switching to SF, I can't speak for others but having had my house shook by IRA bombs, my desk blown to smithereens by IRA bombs and my wife threatened by IRA bank robbers and having watched SF politicians claim expenses despite never attending the House of Commons I for one would vote for anyone bar them


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## liaconn (19 May 2009)

Mpsox said:


> I'm one of the 40% so let me try and answer that question. Perhaps firstly, why did I vote FF. Lots of reasons
> 
> Partially family history, my family have always voted FF, the local TD is from the same parish (and is a good local politician and a decent man who has helped us in the past). In addition, the ancestors of the local FG politicians fired guns at my ancestors, don't underestimate the impact that memory that has in rural areas.
> 
> ...


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## cork (19 May 2009)

liaconn said:


> This is what drives me mad about the way we vote in Ireland. (and the reason why so many bog standard people are sitting in the Dail making crucial decisions about our futures.


 
Look at the shower in the UK - claiming for DVD players and TVs. SF claiming expenses while not even taking their seats.


The Irish had their property boom - just the same as the US and the UK.

Looking to scapegoat politics for peoples stupidity beggers belief.


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## S.L.F (19 May 2009)

Mpsox said:


> Partially their performance in the past, FF did deliver the most prosperous period in Irish history,


 
This is one of the things our old friend Bertie would have us believe the fact is it was FG and Lab who put the steps in place for the Tiger to grow not FF.


Mpsox said:


> So was I right to vote FF?. Probably not in hindsight but hindsight is a wonderful thing. In fairness, some of the issues were out of their control, it's not FF fault that the housing market in the US plunged for example. What has disappointed me is the lack of leadership from Cowan, the perception I have that Lenihan is making it up as he goes along, Coughlin is out of her depth and so on and so forth and ultimately the fact that they blew it.


 

It is not FF's fault the housing market in the states plunged but 2 years ago when they took power there was speculation that they might change the precentage of stamp duty and for the best part of a year people were wary of buying houses and that was where the fall started.



Mpsox said:


> However I also remain to be convinced that other parties would have done things radically better. In fairness, they may have done but can we say for certain they would have.?


 
We can say FF blew it and they have wasted Billions.

For myself the only way I would vote for FF is if the other option is to have my kidneys removed through my nose and even then I'd have to think about it.


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## liaconn (19 May 2009)

cork said:


> Look at the shower in the UK - claiming for DVD players and TVs. SF claiming expenses while not even taking their seats.
> 
> 
> The Irish had their property boom - just the same as the US and the UK.
> ...


 
So you're saying FF have nothing to do with the mess we're in now? That they were not hand in hand with developers, builders etc? That all that stuff that's come out in the tribunals is not an inditment (sp?) of some of their members?


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## cork (19 May 2009)

> It is not FF's fault the housing market in the states plunged but 2 years ago when they took power there was speculation that they might change the precentage of stamp duty and for the best part of a year people were wary of buying houses and that was where the fall started.


 
Cowen stood up to a massive campaign from opposition parties and media aganist making big changes to stamp duty that would have further fueled the property frenzy.


FG wanted to cut stamp duty.

Taking about blowing tax money - at one time that party wanted to compansate Eircom shareholders.


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## S.L.F (19 May 2009)

cork said:


> Taking about blowing tax money - at one time that party wanted to compansate Eircom shareholders.


 
Well if you want to bring Eircom into this.

Question:- who sold Eircom and who picked the price.

Answer:- FF (Mary O'Rouke)


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## NorthDrum (19 May 2009)

micheller said:


> If that individual is so wonderful, they can always choose to go independent. They don't have to choose a party like FF with all it's connotations.
> 
> 
> It isn't out of spite, it's because of what FF stand for that I don't vote for them.
> ...


 
You see I had this arguement with a mate of mine and you have highlighted a great inequality in our electorate system. I could be the best candidate in the world. If I choose to go independent I will have less backup and funding if I am not in a party. It flies in the face of "everybody having an equal opportunity to be elected" ideal.

I am suggesting a political system overhaul, Im not saying exactly what could be done to improve it though (I only make the suggestions, not how they should be implemented).

And I wasnt picking on one particular person here, I was simply saying that many people will vote against FF out of spite, some out of blind loyalty to other parties, some out of lack of understanding of FF's policies (if there are any at the moment) among other bad reasons to vote against FF. Until we fix this mindset we will only ever stumble from mistake to mistake . . Learning from your mistakes isnt about voting for the opposite to the party that led you there, its about taking them on board and demanding better from all involved. What we demand, we will get, problem is that we are simply demanding a differant government (as opposed to a government that shows honesty, integrity and the peoples interest at heart. Does anybody think the next party will have that . . Not a chance . . So why are we accepting that this is just the way it will be . ..


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## micheller (19 May 2009)

OP, I do see your argument, totally. And an overhaul could be the answer. 

But in Ireland we tend to have a lot of family political dynasties who really aren't short of resources. Aren't there also grants for independents? 
It's true the resources are lessened compared to a party candidate- but if they are an amazing candidate then there are some means of getting the message out, I guess is what I'm saying. 
Again in reality, maybe that can't happen as easily as the party candidates...


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## S.L.F (19 May 2009)

NorthDrum said:


> And I wasnt picking on one particular person here, I was simply saying that many people will vote against FF out of spite, some out of blind loyalty to other parties, some out of lack of understanding of FF's policies (if there are any at the moment) among other bad reasons to vote against FF...


 
And some who can see quite clearly that FF are behaving like a headless chicken, FF have done well out of the last 10 years because they got in just when the boom started. They were lucky.



NorthDrum said:


> Until we fix this mindset we will only ever stumble from mistake to mistake . . Learning from your mistakes isnt about voting for the opposite to the party that led you there, its about taking them on board and demanding better from all involved. What we demand, we will get, problem is that we are simply demanding a differant government (as opposed to a government that shows honesty, integrity and the peoples interest at heart. Does anybody think the next party will have that . . Not a chance . . So why are we accepting that this is just the way it will be . ..


 
Are you sure you aren't an FF politician because Biffo sure could use you to write his speeches.

What a load of twattle!



> "Learning from your mistakes isnt about voting for the opposite to the party that led you there"


 
Are you saying FF brought us this current recession and now we shouldn't have a better govt.


----------



## NorthDrum (20 May 2009)

S.L.F said:


> And some who can see quite clearly that FF are behaving like a headless chicken, FF have done well out of the last 10 years because they got in just when the boom started. They were lucky.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Im sure somebody else could explain my posts and how you misinterpreted them so wrong its not funny . . 

I dont really see how anybody could see this as pushing an FF agenda, particularly if all parts of my post were read.

Im saying we need to demand more from our politicians, as a nation we are very slow to strike for whats good for this country (as opposed to striking for our own self interest).


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## bamboozle (20 May 2009)

Actually 5 reasons why i'll never vote FF
1- electronic Voting Machines €50m
2-Peepars Payroll system €100m plus
3-Thornton Hall purchased for €30m even though market value was €6m
4-Limerick drainage cost €70 million paid in compensation
5-the estimated 32 incremental pay rises Bertie got in his 10 years as Taoiseach


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## cork (20 May 2009)

liaconn said:


> So you're saying FF have nothing to do with the mess we're in now? That they were not hand in hand with developers, builders etc? That all that stuff that's come out in the tribunals is not an inditment (sp?) of some of their members?


 

FF got 30% at the last local elections.

During the housing frenzy - they were not in control of local authorities.




> Actually 5 reasons why i'll never vote FF


 
 The Ombama administation has sent stimulus cheques to the dead - What government makes no mistakes?

What political party is control of Limerick Corporation?


----------



## cork (20 May 2009)

> [Until we fix this mindset we will only ever stumble from mistake to mistake . . Learning from your mistakes isnt about voting for the opposite to the party that led you there, its about taking them on board and demanding better from all involved. What we demand, we will get, problem is that we are simply demanding a differant government (as opposed to a government that shows honesty, integrity and the peoples interest at heart. Does anybody think the next party will have that . . Not a chance . . So why are we accepting that this is just the way it will be . .. /QUOTE]
> 
> FG and Labour have zero policicies to reform the public sector.
> 
> ...


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## S.L.F (20 May 2009)

I almost choked when I read your post this morning

What's to misinterpret?

Any govt party that has had Ray Burke, Liam Lawlor, Beverly Cooper Flynne and Charlie Haughty himself in its ranks. and you want me to believe this



NorthDrum said:


> as opposed to a government that shows honesty, integrity and the peoples interest at heart.


 
I will admit whole heartedly that our way of precieving politicians could be changed for the better but if they were changed FF would never get into power again.


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## Cayne (20 May 2009)

cork said:


> > [Until we fix this mindset we will only ever stumble from mistake to mistake . . Learning from your mistakes isnt about voting for the opposite to the party that led you there, its about taking them on board and demanding better from all involved. What we demand, we will get, problem is that we are simply demanding a differant government (as opposed to a government that shows honesty, integrity and the peoples interest at heart. Does anybody think the next party will have that . . Not a chance . . So why are we accepting that this is just the way it will be . .. /QUOTE]
> >
> > FG and Labour have zero policicies to reform the public sector.
> 
> ...


----------



## liaconn (20 May 2009)

cork said:


> FF got 30% at the last local elections.
> 
> During the housing frenzy - they were not in control of local authorities.
> 
> ...


----------



## Locke (20 May 2009)

I'm done with FF and I will never support the Party in election again. Too much abuse and incompetence in power.


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## bamboozle (20 May 2009)

cork said:


> > [Until we fix this mindset we will only ever stumble from mistake to mistake . . Learning from your mistakes isnt about voting for the opposite to the party that led you there, its about taking them on board and demanding better from all involved. What we demand, we will get, problem is that we are simply demanding a differant government (as opposed to a government that shows honesty, integrity and the peoples interest at heart. Does anybody think the next party will have that . . Not a chance . . So why are we accepting that this is just the way it will be . .. /QUOTE]
> >
> > FG and Labour have zero policicies to reform the public sector.
> >
> ...


----------



## cork (20 May 2009)

bamboozle said:


> cork said:
> 
> 
> > please follow link to see FG & Labour joint policy document on their 10 point Dail Reform....
> ...


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## S.L.F (20 May 2009)

cork said:


> FG and Labour would win a gold medal for sitting on the fence and waffling.


 
and FF win the gold medal for going nowhere on a fast train...



cork said:


> Facts are FF only got 30% at the last local elections.


 
they will do even worse this time around.


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## S.L.F (20 May 2009)

bamboozle said:


> [broken link removed]


 
Sorry bamboozle but your link doesn't seem to be working just like FF policies


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## johnd (20 May 2009)

Cork - why are you defending Ray Burke, Liam Lawler, Beverly Cooper Flynn and her Daddy, Charlie Haughey, Bertie Aherne etc,etc. These are the real faces of Fianna Fail. Every time you defend FF you are defending these people. What political party would want these as members?


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## cork (20 May 2009)

> Every time you defend FF you are defending these people


 
*FF only got 30% of the vote at the last local elections.* 

No party is blameless. Local Authortity members of political partys supported crazy re-zonings. Banks, developers, political partys, poor regulation, media (inc. RTE) peoples stupidity - all contributed to the property frenzy.


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## cork (20 May 2009)

Ireland is not the first country to experience a property bubble. Irish people over paid for houses here + abroad.

At the end of the day - they are stuck with massive mortgages.

The property supplements and magazine type programmes like house hunters (I'm an adult get me out of here, house hunters in the sun) may have disappeared. But people will still be paying back for four walls and a roof.


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## Lingua (20 May 2009)

To answer the original question, if there was a GE tomorrow...... 
I always voted FF and some of the FF guys around this area are hard working straight talking BUT I wont be voting FF this year. Like many people I put my faith  into FF for years and always willing to give another chance and trust that this time they will come up with the goods.......... 
This year I'll vote labour or FG. 
Sorry, but FF have had the reins for too long and what gets under my skin is the denial, and not just this but the assumption that 'our supporters' are in denial as well!


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## NorthDrum (20 May 2009)

I would consider setting up a new political party- " Ar Fúm Féin " roughly translated " All about me " . I will only respond to strikes, disputes or personal tragedies when its only in my interest.

Those who vote for me had nothing to do with getting the country into this mess, its not our fault so why should we pay. I will bring in Tax incentives of all kind for anybody that votes for me and tax the hell out of those evil bankers and developers.

_*My Slogan "Its not my fault, so Im not going to pay" . .*_

I will choose to ignore the basic elements of economics that we need to survive in a capitalist regime, prefering to introduce populist legislation that will make my voters feel happy in themselves, but that could potentially ruin the countrys chances of getting foreign assistance in propping us back up. 

-*Lambast FF*. This is a no brainer.

*- Nationalise everybodys personal debt.* Personal responsibility for ones actions is overrated . Why nationalise the banks when you can offer everybody a get out of debt free card. Sure to hell how it doesnt help the economy in anyway but to let our banks collapse and our credit rating abroad dissapear completely. Sure it was nobodys fault that they bought a house, car or holiday that they cant actually afford to service now. It was all the banks and the previous governments fault for completely fooling us into thinking we were living in a perfect society. It was up to them to tell us what to do and they told us the wrong things . .


- *Raise corporation tax* (We dont want those rich companies getting things cheaply here, they wouldnt dare move out!). 

- *Take only the good bits of the banks* (as per George Lee, Im no economist but this seems completely impossible, but sure its a popular idea so lets run with it) . .

- *Nobody should get a paycut*. Who wont vote for that beauty! Ignore internal and external economic problems this will cause. Bankers, builders and unpopular politicans should have to spend at least one day a week in a gallows where people can throw rotten vegetables at them. They cannot be paid until they have performed these duties and even after that, they will be taxed so much they will barely be able to afford the bus home to one of their houses.

- *Never say it like I see it*. To say such derogatory things like "some people in Ireland are really going over the top in some of their opinions on the economy" is only losing potential votes, instead massage their egos with such wonderful phrases like "you deserve better" (and snigger only to yourself, your not promising them anything better, just saying that people deserve better!) or "I totally disagree with the other partys way of doing things"(without actually suggesting a much better alternative that anybody has confidence in).

-As soon as Im elected in I will automatically say that things will be tough and sure *any mistakes I make will be on the back of FF* and that among other great faults they have, its their fault that marathon changed its name to snickers (and bulmers changed to magners). 

-*Always pick one side over the other*. Its not possible to actually take in everybodys viewpoint or ideas. If you do you might actually make the right decisions, but the media will make you look indecisive and a weak leader. As such always go to one side and use Spin to get a majority of the public on your side. If it gets out your spending big money on spin doctors, hire more spin doctors to convince people otherwise.

- *Always work off decisions that benefit you*. You have two options on your table, one is popular among the public but will end up costing alot more then you can afford. The other is very unpopular but will help the longer term stability of the country. No brainer, look at a few opinion poles and get your advisers to give you info that makes that decision work . .

I will post more of my parties stance on topics as the mood of the nation changes . . . .

I am here for myself, to serve myself and to prop up myself at any cost. 

I will stop at nothing to improve my personal standing in society . . . 

Ladies and Gentlemen I give you " Ar Fúm Féin "


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## S.L.F (20 May 2009)

And that had what to do about anything.


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## NorthDrum (20 May 2009)

S.L.F said:


> And that had what to do about anything.


 
Im going out on a limb here, but I think that you might not be on board the whole " Ar Fúm Féin " thing . . 

Suppose thats one less door to knock on . . .


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## S.L.F (20 May 2009)

NorthDrum said:


> Nothing in particular. Just throwing a curveball to the topic .
> 
> Thought it might be fun to lighten the mood a bit . .


 
Fast bit of editing there!

You should apply to FF to be a spin doc


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## NorthDrum (20 May 2009)

S.L.F said:


> Fast bit of editing there!
> 
> You should apply to FF to be a spin doc


 

I edited it again and will probabley have to edit this! My party is all about change and changing with the times, we are not afraid to change the mistakes we feel we have made . .

Just so we are absolutely clear on this . . Are you sure theres nothing I can say to get you to join my party. . 

I can match FF in that we dont have any party logo on our individual banners and I will throw in a guaranteed Job for one of your family or friends if I get elected! . .

Edit: Think I changed this post 5 times . . .


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## S.L.F (20 May 2009)

NorthDrum said:


> the hole " Ar Fúm Féin " thing


 
Thanks for not having me say it


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## S.L.F (20 May 2009)

NorthDrum said:


> we are not afraid to change the mistakes we feel we have made


 
I think you need to hit the edit button again


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## NorthDrum (20 May 2009)

S.L.F said:


> I think you need to hit the edit button again


 
Was going to but its turning into a obsessive compulsive disorder. 

I keep seeing a better post in the making. 

Im my own harshest critic . .


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## S.L.F (20 May 2009)

NorthDrum said:


> Was going to but its turning into a obsessive compulsive disorder.
> 
> I keep seeing a better post in the making.
> 
> Im my own harshest critic . .


 
The rest of us will do our best too.


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## NorthDrum (20 May 2009)

S.L.F said:


> The rest of us will do our best too.


 
Toucheé my friend . .


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## cork (21 May 2009)

Eamon Keane (Newstalk) was talking about PPARS yesterday, 

It was institgated By a FG Health Minister.


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## bamboozle (21 May 2009)

cork said:


> Eamon Keane (Newstalk) was talking about PPARS yesterday,
> 
> It was institgated By a FG Health Minister.


 
Correct, a single, simple payroll system is urgently required by the department of health.  what wasnt required was the €131 plus million that was signed off by Fianna Fail governments to consultants which came up with no working end product.  Dont shoot FG for trying to implement something that was required.
For the record 38.5 million was paid to Deloitte as Consulatants.

Finally, inital expected cost of Ppars was €9m


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## cork (21 May 2009)

But given the amounts of grades and structures in the Health system maybe the problem was with the initial idea.

Still no accoutabilty or leadership in FG.


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## NorthDrum (21 May 2009)

cork said:


> But given the amounts of grades and structures in the Health system maybe the problem was with the initial idea.
> 
> Still no accoutabilty or leadership in FG.


 

Now theres a question. 

Would most people be agreed that the best , current politician in the dail to lead any party would be Richard Bruton.

Would we not all feel better if he was head of FG.

Would he be a great strong leader or end up dissapointing like Cowan. 

You are only as good as your backroom staff, lets be honest Cowan's is deplorable in parts. 

I would sooner take advice off one of my rabbits (the one thats always in the vet with stomach problems), then the Headless, incompetent, utterly non redeeming qualitys of Coughlin . . . 

I still cant believe people voted for this person . . .


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## liaconn (21 May 2009)

NorthDrum said:


> Now theres a question.
> 
> Would most people be agreed that the best , current politician in the dail to lead any party would be Richard Bruton.
> 
> ...


 
Richard Bruton is definitely coming across as a lot more intelligent and competent than both his own leader and the shower of chancers and mé féinners in Fianna Fail. I would really like to see him get a shot as Taoiseach (with George Lee as Minister for Finance).
Mary Coughlan should have been moved long ago. She is just not a convincing Minister for Enterpise, Trade & Employment. She was fine in Agriculture, down with the lads cursing and swearing. However, I think a bit more finesse and dignity is called for in her current position.


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## cork (22 May 2009)

But a FG/Lab government lead by Kenny with Labour being soft of the inefficency of the public sector would be a disaster.

I can't see a leadership heave aganist Kenny. FG lack the bottle.


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## Complainer (22 May 2009)

cork said:


> But a FG/Lab government lead by Kenny with Labour being soft of the inefficency of the public sector would be a disaster.


As opposed to the current situation?


----------



## bamboozle (22 May 2009)

cork said:


> But given the amounts of grades and structures in the Health system maybe the problem was with the initial idea.
> 
> Still no accoutabilty or leadership in FG.


 
i'm finding your blind loyalty to FF quite hilarious at this stage.
Are you suggesting the idea of having a single payrole system in the National Health System to be a bad idea?

Perhaps we should revert to former ways of all public & civil servants getting paid weekly by cheque and giving them an hour off to lodge said cheque....oh hold on they're still getting that time off anyway.

answer me this based on your logic above; are the Luas and Dublin Port Tunnel bad ideas as they too came in far more costly that initial quotes?


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## bamboozle (22 May 2009)

cork said:


> But a FG/Lab government lead by Kenny with Labour being soft of the inefficency of the public sector would be a disaster.
> 
> I can't see a leadership heave aganist Kenny. FG lack the bottle.


 

would this be the same inefficiencies created by the successive FF governments through the creation of numerous quangos which provide no real service? or through the numerous payrises enjoyed by our public sector through benchmarking? or perhaps the lack of accountability that has been exposed through the serious mismanagement of state bodies such as FAS, Financial Regulator etc etc


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## polo1 (22 May 2009)

Yes I would is the simple answer to the OP question... But as many have indicated unfortunatley I dont have that option as I have the option of a candidate  whom I never heard much of him until a few weeks ago which doesnt bide well with me...

I would most probably vote for FG if Edna Kenny *wasnt *the leader or even part of the party... I could not stomach having him run the country either solely or in conjunction with Eamonn Gilmore..   

I think its very unfair to attribute all the blame for the way the economy and country is to FF.. Alot (yes not all) is down to global circumstances,however I agree wholehartedly that FF could have planned better and not squandered as much but which of us was complaining during the boom times.... We are all culpableof lapping it up...

The jury is still out on who my vote will go to... No one has called to my house yet or I have receiped no "junk" mail in relation to any of the candidates so we will see who will visit in the coming wks..


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## bamboozle (22 May 2009)

polo1 said:


> I think its very unfair to attribute all the blame for the way the economy and country is to FF.. Alot (yes not all) is down to global circumstances,however I agree wholehartedly that FF could have planned better quote]
> 
> 
> Nonsense, global circumstances had very little impact here, and this is why all experts are saying we will take longer to come out of the recession and this is also why our dear island is number 1 in the world for indebtedness.
> ...


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## cork (22 May 2009)

> global circumstances had very little impact here


 
A small little island off western europe with a small population is dependant big time of the world economy.



> fuelling the Construction Industry


 
Not alone did the Irish fuel the bubble here - they also helped to fuel the bubble in many countries eg. Bulgaria, Spain & the UK.



> FF were in power as the minimum wage was increased


 
FF introduced the mimimum wage which did more to protect the low paid than the Champagne Socialists in the Labour Party,


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## cork (22 May 2009)

> would this be the same inefficiencies created by the successive FF governments


 
FF formed Bord Snip Nua. No don't Labour and their comrades will oppose reform like they opposed the pensions levy.



> FF introduced the Financial Regulator


 
A regulator was needed. He told people what a tracker mortgage was and people borrowed and spent as if their was no tomorrow.

Houses were over-priced. People were carried away with the frenzy.


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## MrMan (22 May 2009)

The FF bashing seems to be a nice way to shift the blame away from ourselves, when did we suddenly start looking to politicians to be our beacons of hope and when did we ever really trust any of them to lead us? The country thrived and enjoyed some very successful years and there would have been uproar if FF had said 5/6 years ago that the party must stop and start shifting up taxes or pulling back on the construction industry. If they had done what the 'experts' are now saying they should have done, they would have been out on their ear long ago.
We went along with the Celtic Tiger because of the new prosperity but also because it did give us a new identity of a nation that was bigger than the sum of its parts, we liked to read about Irish developers and businessmen making waves on the international scene because it was shifting our inferiority complex.
Now the party is over and we have to deal with it, it is far to simple to leave the blame solely at the door of one political party.

Regards Richard Bruton, i have liked listening to him, but at the budget I thought he really let himself down by just harping on about government failures rather than showing any form of forward thinking. Fine Gael have missed so many opportunities to gain the upper hand in the last 18 months it makes me wonder if they really want the hot seat at all.


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## shesells (22 May 2009)

vote for FF? You must be joking, they inherited the Celtic Tiger and left us with f-all!! Have just got my May payslip with all the new cuts and am truly sickened. I didn't get the country into this mess, didn't even vote for the government parties last time but I and my family have to suffer for their ineptitude. We're paying for their mistakes. And they want a vote - they can FF-Off!!


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## BoscoTalking (22 May 2009)

no. the reason being i asked someone who came to my door why they were going for local elections backed by FF after the shameful wheeling / dealing and waste for the last few years. and he had no answer but wouldn't knock and think just kept saying i have been hearing that a lot...
So no matter whether they were good bad or different its time they turned independent or coats altogether.


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## Complainer (22 May 2009)

cork said:


> FF formed Bord Snip Nua. No don't Labour and their comrades will oppose reform like they opposed the pensions levy.



It seems that you're living in the past - see [broken link removed]



cork said:


> A regulator was needed. He told people what a tracker mortgage was and people borrowed and spent as if their was no tomorrow.
> 
> Houses were over-priced. People were carried away with the frenzy.


You conveniently forget to mention the role of the Govt in fuelling the frenzy with tax reliefs designed to transfer as much cash as possible to the developers. Many of these reliefs are still in place today.


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## MrMan (22 May 2009)

shesells said:


> vote for FF? You must be joking, they inherited the Celtic Tiger and left us with f-all!! Have just got my May payslip with all the new cuts and am truly sickened. I didn't get the country into this mess, didn't even vote for the government parties last time but I and my family have to suffer for their ineptitude. We're paying for their mistakes. And they want a vote - they can FF-Off!!


 
If we were not in this mess your pay slip would already be a lot smaller. Salaries were inflated along with everything else, yet we expect to keep the good and throw blame for the bad.


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## Lex Foutish (22 May 2009)

Is anybody concerned about FG going for celebrity candidates like George Lee in the Dublin by-election and Seán Kelly in the European election in Munster? If any party put those guys up for election, they'd probably win those two seats. 

But I'm sure FG will claim that the votes were for the FG Party.


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## shesells (23 May 2009)

MrMan said:


> If we were not in this mess your pay slip would already be a lot smaller. Salaries were inflated along with everything else, yet we expect to keep the good and throw blame for the bad.



Not my salary! Am on a very modest salary.

As for celebrity candidates, Kelly ran in the locals for FG before he ever got the GAA position. George Lee is one of those rare things, an electable new arrival to politics. Having read his speeches he is a welcome addition to any ticket.


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## Lex Foutish (23 May 2009)

shesells said:


> Not my salary! Am on a very modest salary.
> 
> As for celebrity candidates, Kelly ran in the locals for FG before he ever got the GAA position. George Lee is one of those rare things, an electable new arrival to politics. Having read his speeches he is a welcome addition to any ticket.


 
I agree with you about George Lee and I do feel he'd know what he was tallking about, if he were Minister for Finance. My point was that he would be elected, ever if he were a member of a small party. 

Interesting point about Seán Kelly running before. I didn't know that. But he is a celebrity of sorts now and FG most certainly have chosen a failed candidate if he hadn't been a President of the G.A.A. (And a very good one, I would hasten to add).


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## cork (23 May 2009)

Complainer said:


> You conveniently forget to mention the role of the Govt in fuelling the frenzy with tax reliefs designed to transfer as much cash as possible to the developers. Many of these reliefs are still in place today.


 

If they are in place in rising + falling markets - what does that tell you?

The FF bashing seems to ok to absolve personal stupidy of buying slapped up houses in bad locations at top doller.

The Celtic Tiger was based on a building frenzy that government, develops banks and the Irish people bought into.

But hey blame FF. It seems the best Gilmore and Kenny can come up with.

Kenny wanted to cut stamp duty to add to the frenzy.

Smart guy.


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## Complainer (23 May 2009)

cork said:


> If they are in place in rising + falling markets - what does that tell you?


It tells me that FF are still in bed with the property industry, and the prices still have further to fall once these artifical subsidies to builders are removed.


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## cork (26 May 2009)

> It tells me that FF are still in bed with the property industry, and the prices still have further to fall once these artifical subsidies to builders are removed.


 
House Prices have further to fall. That has been obvious for years. Affer the property frenzy - it was obvious they were going to fall.

A party (FF) who got 30% in the last locals - were not responsible for the carzy re-zonings that went on.

Local Authorities are made up by many auctioneers - voted for by the electorate.

The same electorate bought houses in Ireland and across the Eu At inflated prices.

They went into banks getting massive loans to buy crap houses in crap locations.

Yet blame the government.


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## Complainer (26 May 2009)

cork said:


> A party (FF) who got 30% in the last locals - were not responsible for the carzy re-zonings that went on.


No indeed. It is the party that in Govt, emasculated local authorities and concentrated power in county managers that I hold responsible. It is the party that appointed the members of An Bord Pleaneala that I hold responsible. 

Now which party was that?


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## csirl (26 May 2009)

cork said:


> House Prices have further to fall. That has been obvious for years. Affer the property frenzy - it was obvious they were going to fall.
> 
> A party (FF) who got 30% in the last locals - were not responsible for the carzy re-zonings that went on.
> 
> ...


 
In spite of only getting 30% vote in the last locals, FF are still in power on many councils as part of coalitions e.g. Dublin City Council where the Mayor is from FF.


----------



## cork (26 May 2009)

> In spite of only getting 30% vote in the last locals, FF are still in power on many councils as part of coalitions e.g. Dublin City Council where the Mayor is from FF.


 
I see little merit in FF bashing.

Auctioneers have a tendency to run for local government.

This is not specific to FF.


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## NorthDrum (26 May 2009)

Ive said it time and time again. You get the government that you want and it generally mirrors its peoples sentiments . . 

FF have no power if the people dont vote them in. The hardest thing for Irish People (I include myself here) to take is that we got everything we wanted when times were good and we only demanded that we be looked after (as opposed to demanding that the countrys books be prudently managed).

If we had of demanded more transparency of public spending and more prudency from our government we would of gotten it. Blaming FF for EVERYTHING and assuming that voting them out will solve all our problems is only continuing on where we left off. Its actually making things worse as its ignoring the reason we are in this mess in the first place (because we chose as a nation not to hold our government accountable even when we knew things werent exactly hunky dorey).

Until Irish People face up to their responsibilities (instead of blaming FF for EVERYTHING) we will always be a nation of moaners looking to offset responsibility instead of standing up and being counted for. Im sorry but anybody that says "I didnt do anything to deserve this" is fooling themselves and just highlighting this whole "I shouldnt be part of the recession" waffle arguement. I didnt do anything specifically terrible to deserve such hardship either, but even when it was obvious these guys were peeing away the countries wealth I chose not to march on the streets for better value for our taxmoney.

Im not saying we should vote FF, FG, labour, independent etc. What I am saying is that we should DEMAND more from our politicians. Somebody should organise marches on the streets for the good of the country (as opposed to the good of vested interest groups). Until this happens we will only ever end up with governments mirroring its people. A bunch of self interested vested interest groups looking out for themselves.


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## cork (26 May 2009)

> Until Irish People face up to their responsibilities (instead of blaming FF for EVERYTHING) we will always be a nation of moaners looking to offset responsibility instead of standing up and being counted for.


 
I completely agree. 

Labour wanted to cut taxes before the last election. FG wanted to cut stamp duty. Blaming FF for economic recession when there is a world wide recession out there is the pits.

People were happy to buy houses at the top of the market. They bought summer dwellings out in Spain. They bought new TVs, Cars etc. They borrowed, borrowed and borrowed.

But alas, chickens come home to roost. Instead of taking responsibilty - people just crib, crib and crib.

Joe Duffys radio show ratings have gone thru the roof.


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## Caveat (26 May 2009)

cork said:


> People were happy to buy houses at the top of the market. They bought summer dwellings out in Spain. They bought new TVs, Cars etc. They borrowed, borrowed and borrowed.


 
...and what about those who didn't?


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## Purple (26 May 2009)

Caveat said:


> ...and what about those who didn't?



They get sucked down with everyone else. That’s just the nature of things.
The points above are well made; FG and Labour were calling for more spending, not less, over the last few years. It is deeply hypocritical for them to bleat about the problems we are facing now. I log onto Joan Burtons website the odd time and when I do I am assaulted by a populist spew of economic diarrhea. It is disturbing to think that such childish and illogical policies might become government policy in the future.
Having said all that, as they say, Fianna Fail are the party that has been in power so while the wishful pontifications  of others may be ill conceived it is the actions of the government that have, to a great extent, lead us to where we now are and so the book stops with them. Parties in opposition have the luxury of being populist but if they are any good they face reality when in office. Fianna Fail didn’t do this, didn’t do what was in the medium term interests of the country (face down the unions, builders & developers and other vested interest groups and adopt a prudent counter-cyclical economic policy) and so based on that track record should now be voted out of office. The strong chance that the alternative will be worse notwithstanding.


----------



## NorthDrum (26 May 2009)

Caveat said:


> ...and what about those who didn't?


 
They are not saddled with debt. . . That should be enough . .

Glass is always half empty with us . .


----------



## Complainer (27 May 2009)

cork said:


> People were happy to buy houses at the top of the market. They bought summer dwellings out in Spain. They bought new TVs, Cars etc. They borrowed, borrowed and borrowed.



No-one was 'happy' to buy at the top of the market. Remember we had Bertie telling anyone who suggested that the market might drop to go and kill themselves. FF did everything they could to talk up and prop up the market, and of course it inevitably failed. Many of those who bought were not buying holiday homes and flat screen TVs - they were just trying to buy a home for their family within a reasonable commuting distance of their workplace.


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## cork (27 May 2009)

> No-one was 'happy' to buy at the top of the market.


 
No, they tought the frenzy would never stop.


 Property supplements, RTE, Banks - People borrowed money from parents and banks. Now they are in negative equity.

No one including government expected the end of this bubble.

People overpaid for crap houses in crap locations. 



> FF did everything they could to talk up and prop up the market


 
More FF bashing??

What statements statements did Cowen make talking up the market?

People overpaid for houses. They are now stuck with massive loans. People were sucked into a frenzy.


----------



## Complainer (27 May 2009)

cork said:


> No, they tought the frenzy would never stop.


Perhaps they were influenced by Bertie's suggestion that anyone suggesting that the economy would drop should go kill themselves?



cork said:


> Property supplements, RTE, Banks - People borrowed money from parents and banks. Now they are in negative equity.
> 
> No one including government expected the end of this bubble.
> 
> People overpaid for crap houses in crap locations.


Because they had little choice to do so, other than staying out of the market and risking their chance of EVER owning a property here.



cork said:


> More FF bashing??


Just to be clear, do you reckon FF bear any touch of responsibility for our current economic woes.


cork said:


> What statements statements did Cowen make talking up the market?


 Here's just one;

http://www.finance.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=4807&CatID=54&StartDate=1+January+2007&m=



> I want to take a little time to review where we are now in regard to first-time buyers. In my last Budget, I indicated that it was the Government’s aim to help first-time buyers directly and substantially, including those who were already paying their first mortgages. I did this by increasing mortgage interest relief for first-time buyers from €4,000 single and €8,000 married or widowed per year, to €8,000 and €16,000 respectively. This measure helped first-time buyers who were already in their first home, as well as brand new first-time buyers.


Yet another FF subsidy designed to keep prices high.


----------



## NorthDrum (27 May 2009)

Complainer said:


> No-one was 'happy' to buy at the top of the market. Remember we had Bertie telling anyone who suggested that the market might drop to go and kill themselves. FF did everything they could to talk up and prop up the market, and of course it inevitably failed. Many of those who bought were not buying holiday homes and flat screen TVs - they were just trying to buy a home for their family within a reasonable commuting distance of their workplace.


 

This simply highlights the problems of the attitude of this country (as many people would agree with you). People wanted to be told to spend (otherwise the government wouldnt of said it and people wouldnt of followed). Right now people want to be told that it wasnt their fault, which is self serving, but counter productive in getting us all working together to get out of these problems.

Bertie sold us a dream that we all bought into on our own. 

If Bertie told you to jump into a furnace would you follow ! !

As a nation we only take what we want from governments advice. Right now, whatever happened in the past, the government are advising that the country needs more funds from taxes, needs to reduce its public service costs and that we need to get banks back lending. I happen to agree that these are necessary evils, but try telling that to the populist Joe Duffy brigade hellbent on moaning our economy back into the positive . . .

At what stage do you take responsibility of your actions . . .


----------



## Shawady (27 May 2009)

Complainer said:


> Yet another FF subsidy designed to keep prices high.


 
Have not got the link, but read recently that there is no mortgage relief in Canada precisely for this reason - It artificially inflates house prices.

Did Cowen (as Finance Minister) not reverse some of the recomendations of the Bacon report, which in turn benefited investors?


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## Shawady (27 May 2009)

NorthDrum said:


> At what stage do you take responsibility of your actions . . .


 
Fair point. It is similar to the Eircom shares in the late 90's. Many people bought into these thinking it was easy money but made a loss.
I remember one of my former colleagues blaming the government of the day because of the advertisement campaign they ran, which influenced many people to buy shares.


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## Complainer (27 May 2009)

NorthDrum;874632People wanted to be told to spend[/quote said:
			
		

> No-one 'wanted' to spend or be told to spend. People had little choice but to pay the market price at the time, or risk being priced out of the market forever. I don't know anyone who bought property on an extravagant whim. They were generally just trying to provide a home for their family.


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## cork (27 May 2009)

> Fair point. It is similar to the Eircom shares in the late 90's


 
I got burnt in that frenzy.

Hype, Ads and more hype.

The housing bubble was pushed by banks, developers and the regulator.

People fell for the nonsense.


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## csirl (27 May 2009)

> Fair point. It is similar to the Eircom shares in the late 90's. Many people bought into these thinking it was easy money but made a loss.
> I remember one of my former colleagues blaming the government of the day because of the advertisement campaign they ran, which influenced many people to buy shares.


 
What is to blame the government for on the Eircom shares? They sold the company for a lot more than it was actually worth thus getting more money for the taxpayer. This should be commended - its not often that the government achieves such value for money.


----------



## Complainer (27 May 2009)

cork said:


> The housing bubble was pushed by banks, developers and the regulator.


Are you omitting any key parties from your list of those responsible? Hint: who provided the legislation and public policy that consistently subsidised the property industry for the past 15 years.


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## Shawady (27 May 2009)

csirl said:


> What is to blame the government for on the Eircom shares? They sold the company for a lot more than it was actually worth thus getting more money for the taxpayer. This should be commended - its not often that the government achieves such value for money.


 
I was just making the comparison between people that bought into the Eircom shares and people that bought houses at the height of the boom. In both cases, the potential downside was rarely considered.
When the share price went down some of the people I worked with blamed the government because of the campaign they ran, which may have suggested it was a no lose situation. However as a previous poster said about buying houses, personal responsibility msut come into it.


----------



## Complainer (27 May 2009)

Shawady said:


> I was just making the comparison between people that bought into the Eircom shares and people that bought houses at the height of the boom. In both cases, the potential downside was rarely considered.
> When the share price went down some of the people I worked with blamed the government because of the campaign they ran, which may have suggested it was a no lose situation. However as a previous poster said about buying houses, personal responsibility msut come into it.


There is a big difference between making an investment decision and buying a home.


----------



## cork (27 May 2009)

Complainer said:


> Are you omitting any key parties from your list of those responsible? Hint: who provided the legislation and public policy that consistently subsidised the property industry for the past 15 years.


 

Local Authorities failed miserably to build houses during the celtic tiger era as they did in the 1950s. But FF only got 30% at the last locals.

All governments subsidised property. FG, Labour, the Greens, FF gave mortgage interest relief.


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## MrMan (27 May 2009)

Complainer said:


> There is a big difference between making an investment decision and buying a home.


 
You are right, people should be far more careful and take a considered approach when buying a home. People bought homes but how many bought outside of their financial comfort zone? Buying a home is no excuse for removing logic from your purchase and simply saying Bertie said it was the way to go is simplistic and doesnt carry weight. As I have said before, the perception of politicians has never been good in this country, the back handers and stories of corruption etc, so when we say we only did it because they were pushing an agenda it really is a case of only hearing what we wanted to hear.


----------



## Complainer (27 May 2009)

MrMan said:


> You are right, people should be far more careful and take a considered approach when buying a home. People bought homes but how many bought outside of their financial comfort zone? Buying a home is no excuse for removing logic from your purchase and simply saying Bertie said it was the way to go is simplistic and doesnt carry weight. As I have said before, the perception of politicians has never been good in this country, the back handers and stories of corruption etc, so when we say we only did it because they were pushing an agenda it really is a case of only hearing what we wanted to hear.


True to an extent - but it is easy to criticise with hindsight. If you turn back the clock, and put yourself in their shoes, looking at 10 years of escalating prices, seeing their chance to get on the property ladder moving out of their reach, it is not hard to see why people were somewhat desperate to buy.



cork said:


> Local Authorities failed miserably to build houses during the celtic tiger era as they did in the 1950s. But FF only got 30% at the last locals.


FF HQ would be proud of your attempts to deflect and divert attention. But it is a fairly flimsy attempt. Who is responsible for funding local authority capital projects (such as social housing)? I'm sure you don't need a hint for that one.


cork said:


> All governments subsidised property. FG, Labour, the Greens, FF gave mortgage interest relief.


Again, more diversion and deflections. FF have been in power since 1994. Perhaps you would answer the question that you avoided - do you believe that FF hold any responsibility for our current economic woes?


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## Purple (27 May 2009)

MrMan said:


> As I have said before, the perception of politicians has never been good in this country, the back handers and stories of corruption etc, so when we say we only did it because they were pushing an agenda it really is a case of only hearing what we wanted to hear.



Well said but I suspect that if FF came up with a perpetual motion machine, cold fusion and the formula for turning seawater into gold Complainer would be opposed to it.


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## Latrade (28 May 2009)

My biggest dilemma right now is that I'm floating back to an FF vote. Last time I checked this was a local and European election. Yet each candidate on the doorstep is making it an anti-FF issue. While at first this might be ok, now it's starting to get repetitive. 

Where's the discussion on local or European issues? Sure, bash the government, but if you want my vote for your seat at least give me a hint as to what you intend to do for the next few years. The irony is that the FF candidates have obviously been doing everything to distance themselves from the national side and so have been very focussed on local/European issues. 

This is now the worst example of opportunism and the worst side of those with political aspirations. Instead of trying to help the country, everyone who's ever gotten slightly aroused on a bit of power has come out sensing blood and seeing this as an opportunity for them to get on the gravy train. It's not even single issue candidates as they have no issues to communicate other than let's "send a message to the government"? And once that message has been sent, what do you intend to do for the local community? Not a difficult question, but one that has been avoided on the door step.

A classic example was a "debate" between Eoin Ryan and Mary Lou McDonald. I say "debate" as a comatose, constipated hamster on life support could out debate McDonald. But she couldn't give one example of how her term in Europe has been of benefit to the State. Instead she chose a path of negativity against Ryan, stating he was making a "bogus" claims. Even though he proved his claims were correct.

I guess for some people negative campaigning is enough. I'd rather here what they intend to do for my vote. Sadly this isn't forthcoming, maybe I'm a freak and should be satisfied in giving my vote to someone in order to "send a message".

I guess this etcha-sketch approach to democracy (shake it up and erase when you don't like it) is symptomatic of how we've all had a little hand in the current situation. We wanted all the goods and fancy stuff without thought of the long term consequences and now we're willing to give away votes to power hungry candidates without thought of the long term consequences.


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## Caveat (28 May 2009)

Latrade said:


> ... etcha-sketch approach to democracy (shake it up and erase when you don't like it)...


 
I like it!


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## cork (28 May 2009)

> Again, more diversion and deflections. FF have been in power since 1994. Perhaps you would answer the question that you avoided - do you believe that FF hold any responsibility for our current economic woes?


 
Yes - spending could have been controled better & the public sector could have been reformed. Competition could have been introduced in more areas & the lack of broadband is a disgrace.

FG and Labour were calling for more spending. FG wanted to cut stamp duty and Labour wanted more tax cuts.

No Political party was blameless.

Facts are - people were sucked in by the borrow and spend type of atitude. They are now left with big loans and negative equity.


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## Chocks away (28 May 2009)

cork said:


> Yes - spending could have been controled better & the public sector could have been reformed. Competition could have been introduced in more areas & the lack of broadband is a disgrace.
> 
> FG and Labour were calling for more spending. FG wanted to cut stamp duty and Labour wanted more tax cuts.
> 
> ...


 While I agree with all of what you say, I think your second last sentence encapsulates the nub of the problem. Older people, who had seen recessions before, were less prone to such ovine behaviour. But I still feel sorry for everyone that has taken a hit.


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## cork (28 May 2009)

> While I agree with all of what you say, I think your second last sentence encapsulates the nub of the problem. Older people, who had seen recessions before, were less prone to such ovine behaviour. But I still feel sorry for everyone that has taken a hit.


 

Thats the kernel of it. Muptiples of joint salaries were common place for mortgage applications.

This was a disgrace.

I remember the David Mc Williams "Agenda" programme of the early 00's. 

He consistantly stressed that houses were over priced.

Where was the regulator and the central bank.

There was an absense of reality from all political partys.


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## elefantfresh (28 May 2009)

I'd vote for that Emma after all the e-mails floating about yesterday!!!


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## Purple (28 May 2009)

elefantfresh said:


> I'd vote for that Emma after all the e-mails floating about yesterday!!!


Who's Emma?


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## UptheDeise (28 May 2009)

cork said:


> Local Authorities failed miserably to build houses during the celtic tiger era as they did in the 1950s. But FF only got 30% at the last locals.
> 
> All governments subsidised property. FG, Labour, the Greens, FF gave mortgage interest relief.


 

And it was this subsidising of the property market that lead to distorted prices, a bubble, a crash and negative equity.


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## cork (29 May 2009)

> And it was this subsidising of the property market that lead to distorted prices, a bubble, a crash and negative equity.


 
Mortgage interest relief has been there for years.

The main cause of the bubble (IMO) was people were sucked into the frenzy.

It was akin to a Pymanid schemes.


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## elefantfresh (29 May 2009)

> Who's Emma?



Where have you been Purple??? Only the best FG [broken link removed] so far!


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## S.L.F (29 May 2009)

elefantfresh said:


> Where have you been Purple??? Only the best FG [broken link removed] so far!


 
Bad news...they removed it...

But good news I found it again

http://www.peoplesrepublicofcork.com/~peoplesr/forums/showpost.php?p=2697176&postcount=1

I vote for Emma


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## Lex Foutish (29 May 2009)

S.L.F said:


> Bad news...they removed it...
> 
> But good news I found it again
> 
> ...


 
My god, man! The lengths you will go to in order to dig the dirt on someone!!!!!!!!!

Having said that, I'm gonna vote for her too! 

Where do I register.......?


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## Pique318 (29 May 2009)

S.L.F said:


> Bad news...they removed it...
> 
> But good news I found it again
> 
> ...


Yeah...I'd give it to her aswell... (my vote that is  )


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## Ed054 (29 May 2009)

johnd said:


> Shay Brennan is actually 35 years old! Am I the ony one who thinks he looks terrified all the time? All that responsibility on such young shoulders I suppose, all those family expectations...


 

I like the way he is described in FF leaflets and press releases that he works in Financial Services.

Why would he be afraid to declare that he works for Anglo Irish Bank?


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## Mpsox (29 May 2009)

S.L.F said:


> Bad news...they removed it...
> 
> But good news I found it again
> 
> ...


 

have to say the quality of FG candidates is high this time around. Those of you with dubious musical taste may remember this candidate from her time in Six (or was it 5, or 7???)

[broken link removed]


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## Lex Foutish (29 May 2009)

Mpsox said:


> have to say the quality of FG candidates is high this time around. Those of you with dubious musical taste may remember this candidate from her time in Six (or was it 5, or 7???)
> 
> [broken link removed]


 
Yeah, I noticed Sinéad's posters (couldn't help it, really) on the way back from East Cork yesterday. Never knew she existed and she looks much better in the posters than in the above FG link.

Have to agree with you about the "quality" of FG candidates this time around.


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## cork (29 May 2009)

Lex Foutish said:


> Have to agree with you about the "quality" of FG candidates this time around.


 

Any truth that Enda is trying to get Paris Hilton to run?


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## Lex Foutish (29 May 2009)

I just had a look at the FF website and went to the "Local Candidates" (West Cork section, which I'd be familiar with) and I was amazed to see how many of the candidates have no photo of themselves on their pages and that some of them had little or no information about themselves there either.

Maybe they're afraid that they'll be recognised.


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## Complainer (29 May 2009)

cork said:


> Local Authorities failed miserably to build houses during the celtic tiger era as they did in the 1950s. But FF only got 30% at the last locals.
> 
> All governments subsidised property. FG, Labour, the Greens, FF gave mortgage interest relief.





cork said:


> Yes - spending could have been controled better & the public sector could have been reformed. Competition could have been introduced in more areas & the lack of broadband is a disgrace.
> 
> FG and Labour were calling for more spending. FG wanted to cut stamp duty and Labour wanted more tax cuts.
> 
> ...






cork said:


> Mortgage interest relief has been there for years.
> 
> The main cause of the bubble (IMO) was people were sucked into the frenzy.
> 
> It was akin to a Pymanid schemes.





cork said:


> Thats the kernel of it. Muptiples of joint salaries were common place for mortgage applications.
> 
> This was a disgrace.
> 
> ...





cork said:


> Yes - spending could have been controled better & the public sector could have been reformed. Competition could have been introduced in more areas & the lack of broadband is a disgrace.
> 
> FG and Labour were calling for more spending. FG wanted to cut stamp duty and Labour wanted more tax cuts.
> 
> ...



It's hard to know where to start with all this guff. The key central issue is that regardless of what anyone in the opposition, FF have been in power for 15 years. They got us into this mess, and made the international situation dramatically worse. Your feeble attempts to spread blame have no basis in the real world.

It is interesting to note that you castigate FG/Labour for wanting more spending, and you castigate the local authorities for not building more houses - slight contradiction there, no?

You ask where was the regulator and the central bank? Perhaps you should be directing this question the FF-appointed board members? Of to the FF finance minister that appointed them? Or the FF finance minister that wrote the enabling legislation that created the 'light-touch' regulation environment that ensured that Seanie Fitz & Co could cost the state €4 billion as of today.

It was indeed a pyramid scheme, created, supported and fuelled by the FF govt. We all know who was at the top of the pyramid creaming off the billions, and who is left at the bottom of the pyramid paying for their messing. Today's poll results show that people see through the FF denial guff clearly.


----------



## Purple (29 May 2009)

Complainer said:


> It's hard to know where to start with all this guff. The key central issue is that regardless of what anyone in the opposition, FF have been in power for 15 years. They got us into this mess, and made the international situation dramatically worse. Your feeble attempts to spread blame have no basis in the real world.
> 
> It is interesting to note that you castigate FG/Labour for wanting more spending, and you castigate the local authorities for not building more houses - slight contradiction there, no?
> 
> ...


 And there ends the party political broadcast on behalf of the Labour Party (upper middle-income protected sector urban branch).
Yes, it's all down to FF; if it wasn't for them we'd be living in a socialist utopia. It's not as if they were re-elected a number of times over those 15 years. God forbid anyone would have to be grown up about it and admit that it was a national problem.


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## bond-007 (30 May 2009)

I have not had a single FF local candidate knock on my door or any leaflets. They are obviously not bothering to salvage the local vote. 
Got the standard state sponsored littir from Liam Aylward and chum. Recycled without reading it.


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## Ed054 (11 Jun 2009)

S.L.F said:


> Bad news...they removed it...
> 
> But good news I found it again
> 
> ...


 

Well Done!

She got in


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## cork (11 Jun 2009)

> It was indeed a pyramid scheme, created, supported and fuelled by the FF govt.


 
Right - How a party that got 30% in the last locals could re-zone land in the backs of the beyonds makes no sense.

But we'll see what the likes of joe higgins will do for leafy suburbia.

The Labour party are far too close to public sector unions. Are the Labour party still opposing the pensions levy?

Rhy'd do anything for a few votes.


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## Complainer (12 Jun 2009)

cork said:


> Right - How a party that got 30% in the last locals could re-zone land in the backs of the beyonds makes no sense.


It's OK, Cork. The election is over now. You don't have to keep spinning the party lines here.

You've mentioned before that you work in a local authority. I can only assume that you've never set foot in or spoken to any of the staff from the planning dept, given your comment above. If you did know just a smidgen about how local authority planning works, you would know well that elected councillors have relatively little influence on planning. They do get involved in the county development plan, but they have absolutely no role in approving or rejecting particular planning applications.

These decisions are made initially by the full-time professional planners. When the developers don't get the decision they want, they then appeal to An Bord Pleaneala. The politically appointment members of ABP get to make the real decisions. So that's one significant part of the reason why we had a property bubble.


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## S.L.F (12 Jun 2009)

Ed054 said:


> Well Done!
> 
> She got in


 
Ed054 I think if FG had put a hamster up for the vote it would have done better than those fools from FF.

I have a friend who is an FG activist, he was telling me that FF just don't get it, they think the reason people are annoyed with them is due to the last budget not because of the other 1,000 things FF have cocked up on.

Complainer:-as far as I'm aware when it came to voting on the rezoning of Dun Laoghaire golf club it was *Martin* Cullen who instructed DLRCC to rezone more land for housing but it was the councillors who voted on it.


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## Ed054 (12 Jun 2009)

S.L.F said:


> Ed054 I think if FG had put a hamster up for the vote it would have done better than those fools from FF.
> 
> I have a friend who is an FG activist, he was telling me that FF just don't get it, they think the reason people are annoyed with them is due to the last budget not because of the other 1,000 things FF have cocked up on.
> 
> Complainer:-as far as I'm aware when it came to voting on the rezoning of Dun Laoghaire golf club it was Noel Cullen who instructed DLRCC to rezone more land for housing but it was the councillors who voted on it.


 

Well there will be a by election due in Donegal so maybe its time to test the Hampster.

Can't do any worse them a lot of the idiots in the Dail


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## bond-007 (12 Jun 2009)

You will be waiting for that by election to happen. I doubt it will happen within the current Dáil.


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## Purple (12 Jun 2009)

cork said:


> Right - How a party that got 30% in the last locals could re-zone land in the backs of the beyonds makes no sense.
> 
> But we'll see what the likes of joe higgins will do for leafy suburbia.
> 
> ...


Cork, arguing with Complainer about FF is like arguing evolution with a creationist; his opinions are informed by the intimate truth of his socialist dogma and so FF can never do any good.


----------



## Complainer (12 Jun 2009)

S.L.F said:


> Complainer:-as far as I'm aware when it came to voting on the rezoning of Dun Laoghaire golf club it was Noel Cullen who instructed DLRCC to rezone more land for housing but it was the councillors who voted on it.



Nope -  the FF Minister used powers brought in by the FF govt to direct the county manager to rezone more land. The councillors only got to vote on which lands were zoned, but had no choice but to rezone a certain amount. From http://buckplanning.blogspot.com/2008/06/dn-laoghaire-golf-club-development-gets.html


> The land in question was controversially rezoned in 2004 after the then minister for the environment, Martin Cullen, used his powers under the 2000 Planning Act to issue a statutory directive to the council to rezone more land in the area to provide extra housing.


IIRC, FF & FG councillors voted in favour of rezoning the golf club, while LAB & GP voted against or abstained (though I'm honestly not 100% certain of this). Certainly, FF Cathoirleach Trevor Matthews seems to have been very gung-ho about the rezoning [broken link removed]. Thanks for reminding me of this angle. Cork's claims of no FF involvement in rezoning are sounding more than a little hollow.


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## MrMan (14 Jun 2009)

> I have a friend who is an FG activist, he was telling me that FF just don't get it, they think the reason people are annoyed with them is due to the last budget not because of the other 1,000 things FF have cocked up on.


I think you will find that playing with people's incomes does have a huge bearing on their political opinions, it also goes the other way which is why they have been in govt so long. Now that FG have figured out why people are annoyed with FF it will be interesting to see if they can figure out how to make people believe in them.


----------



## Mpsox (15 Jun 2009)

Complainer said:


> You've mentioned before that you work in a local authority. I can only assume that you've never set foot in or spoken to any of the staff from the planning dept, given your comment above. If you did know just a smidgen about how local authority planning works, you would know well that elected councillors have relatively little influence on planning. They do get involved in the county development plan, but they have absolutely no role in approving or rejecting particular planning applications.


 
They may not get involved in individual planning applications but they do get involved in rezoning land, otherwise why would Frank Dunlop have been bribing them? I know of at least one FF counciler who just happened to be an estate agent who voted in favour of rezoning and then just happened to be appointed the selling agent for the estate of houses that got rebuilt on the rezoned land.


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## Complainer (16 Jun 2009)

Mpsox said:


> They may not get involved in individual planning applications but they do get involved in rezoning land, otherwise why would Frank Dunlop have been bribing them?


Quite true.



Mpsox said:


> I know of at least one FF counciler who just happened to be an estate agent who voted in favour of rezoning and then just happened to be appointed the selling agent for the estate of houses that got rebuilt on the rezoned land.


I'm sure Cork will find a reason to blame FG and Lab for this incident.


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## cork (16 Jun 2009)

> involved in rezoning land


 
They wrecklessly re-zoned land with little consisance to services, schools or facilities.

These were local authorities with little FF influence.


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## Mpsox (16 Jun 2009)

cork said:


> They wrecklessly re-zoned land with little consisance to services, schools or facilities.
> 
> These were local authorities with little FF influence.


 
this was a local authority with FF majority on it at the time,


----------



## Complainer (16 Jun 2009)

cork said:


> They wrecklessly re-zoned land with little consisance to services, schools or facilities.
> 
> These were local authorities with little FF influence.


Which local authorities are you referring to, and when did this happen?


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## cork (16 Jun 2009)

I was just making a general point about land rezonings that focused little onto weather infrastructure was in place to support development.

After houses were built - house owners look for schools and community centres.

Pity, they did not look at the facilties before buying the house or that local councillers re-zoned lands in such a fashion.


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## Complainer (17 Jun 2009)

cork said:


> I was just making a general point about land rezonings that focused little onto weather infrastructure was in place to support development.


Ah come now, you did a bit more than 'make a general point'. You specifically attributed blame to FG/Lab councillors, and now you are failing to present any evidence to support this claim. While undoubtedly these rezonings did happen, you might want to check out;
a) how many were councils like DLR, acting under legal instructions from an FF Minister to rezone more land?
b) how many of these rezonings did the FF councillors vote against, whether they were in power on the councils or not.

People in glass houses etc etc etc



cork said:


> After houses were built - house owners look for schools and community centres.
> 
> Pity, they did not look at the facilties before buying the house or that local councillers re-zoned lands in such a fashion.


This is indeed a valid point, but it seems to be part of your grand master plan to divert and deflect all responsibility from your beloved FF. It is indeed a pity that the house buyers did not look for these facilities first. However, if there were NO properties around with these facilities in place, who do you blame?

Do you blame the FF-appointment members of An Bord Pleanala? Or the FF-managed Dept Environment which writes the planning guidelines for all local authorities?

Try taking a deep breath, and saying "I admit it - FF screwed up rightly". I promise that you'll feel better afterwards!


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## Purple (17 Jun 2009)

Complainer said:


> Do you blame the FF-appointment members of An Bord Pleanala? Or the FF-managed Dept Environment which writes the planning guidelines for all local authorities?


 
[broken link removed] is a list of the members of An Bord Pleanala as well as a summary of how they are appointed. Which ones do you have a problem with?
Are you suggesting that the Civil Servants in the Department of Environment are biased and/or FF lackeys?

I am sure there will be no answer to this.


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## S.L.F (17 Jun 2009)

Purple said:


> [broken link removed] is a list of the members of An Bord Pleanala as well as a summary of how they are appointed. Which ones do you have a problem with?
> Are you suggesting that the Civil Servants in the Department of Environment are biased and/or FF lackeys?
> 
> I am sure there will be no answer to this.


 
ABP have guidelines to which they must work those guidelines are written by the govt (FF), unless I'm very much mistaken.


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