# Are "next of kin" responsible if there is no estate for the payments to be taken?



## Concert

Very elderly aunt (over 100) is long term in nursing home.  

My mother is her only sister alive and they did not get on very well over the years so when my aunt was in trouble once she got help from someone (no relation) who looked after her over the years.  

This person has been good to her but our worry is that my mother is down as her "next of kin" yet she says that if something happens to my aunt she is not responsible for funeral expenses etc and we dont think her helper will want to be financially responsible.  

My aunt was a widow and had a business when she was younger but presume a lot of money went on her care.  

She has made a will as far as we know but cant see my mam featuring as she wasnt close. 

Can someone tell me who is responsible in a situation like this where a family is very small?


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## mf1

*Re: Next of Kin*

If there is a will, then there will be an executor who will be appointed to pay the funeral expenses. If there are no funds, then the executor may or may not choose to pay the funeral expenses themselves. If the executor can't or won't then its back to the family. 

I gather that what happens in these circumstances is that family members simply decline to deal with the issue, ignore the death and the nursing home will be left to sort it out. 

Personally, I, as a next generation family member, would feel an obligation to pay for the funeral out of my own pocket in the absence of any of the aunt's funds being readily available, even if it was the case that that money would never be repaid from anywhere. 

Mind you there'd be no horse drawn carriages! 

mf


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## doubledeb

*Re: Next of Kin*

I don't know much about isuues with next of kin, but if there is a will drawn up surely there would be assets or life insurance policies?
The funeral costs could be paid out of her estate maybe.... just a thought.  I wouldn't expect her "helper" to fund anything


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## PaddyBloggit

*Re: Next of Kin*

If relations have been non-existent for years can the (estranged) family be held liable for any outstanding bills?


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## doubledeb

*Re: Next of Kin*

I am only going by experience here but I do know that anything outstanding on Finance (car), or with revenue, next of kin are responsible if there is no estate for the payments to be taken.  If there is monies in the estate nothing will be paid to the benificarys until these debts are paid.  I.E. those debts do not die with you.  My experience was this time last year unless things have changed since then.


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## PaddyBloggit

*Re: Next of Kin*



doubledeb said:


> I.E. those debts do not die with you.



This I would find very unfair .... what if sister and sister lived seperate lives for most of their lifetime .... no contact at all .... I can't see how somebody should be responsible for somebody's else's debts when they have nothing to do with them.

Would that mean if I fell out with my brother, never saw him again in my life, he could ring up a string of bills, leave no will and revenue will come knocking on my door?

Doesn't seem fair to me ... especially if I'm the type who has never over extended my finances during the course of my life.


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## doubledeb

*Re: Next of Kin*

I agree, very unfair, fortunatly there was a will in my case and there were assets to cover the debt but if, as you said-
 "what if sister and sister lived seperate lives for most of their lifetime .... no contact at all .... I can't see how somebody should be responsible for somebody's else's debts when they have nothing to do with them"

I know i would feel differently if there was a large lump of cash left in the will for me!!


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## mf1

*Re: Next of Kin*

"next of kin are responsible if there is no estate for the payments to be taken."

No - they are not. If an estate is insolvent, relations cannot legally be held responsible for the debts of the deceased. Some families may feel a moral obligation - but its not legally enforceable.

mf


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## doubledeb

*Re: Next of Kin*

Not sure what happens or whether anyone will come knocking on the door if there are no assets in the will


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## doubledeb

*Re: Next of Kin*



mf1 said:


> "next of kin are responsible if there is no estate for the payments to be taken."
> 
> No - they are not. If an estate is insolvent, relations cannot legally be held responsible for the debts of the deceased. Some families may feel a moral obligation - but its not legally enforceable.
> 
> mf


Apologys - as I stated there were assets in my case to cover outstanding debts but just wondering how would revenue get the money they are owed if there were no assets?  I was under the illusion that if there were no assets next of kin would be liable to pay up?


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## Vanilla

*Re: Next of Kin*

Aunt may very well have a private patients account/ refund of HSE overcharging monies that will take care of funeral expenses. If not, in practice nursing home will arrange and seek a grant from government if relatives won't pay. Relatives cannot be made to pay. But monies can be taken from any assets in deceased's estate to cover before any benefits/devises to beneficiaries or next of kin.


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## Padraigb

*Re: Next of Kin*



doubledeb said:


> Apologys - as I stated there were assets in my case to cover outstanding debts but just wondering how would revenue get the money they are owed if there were no assets?  I was under the illusion that if there were no assets next of kin would be liable to pay up?



What mf1 said is correct. If there are no assets, nobody gets paid; if there are some assets, but not enough to cover all debts, people may be partially paid (now, that can get really interesting: you wouldn't want to go there).


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## Concert

*Re: Next of Kin*

Thanks for all info.  As my mother is her only sister and I am the only niece I just wanted to know who should pay for things if she should pass as she is well over the 100 mark and very frail.  I touched the subject with my mom when aunt had to be hospitalised lately but she said her helper would do all that. It's a difficult one to be in the middle of as my aunt was very difficult and quite jealous of my mom all her life.


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## PaddyBloggit

*Re: Next of Kin*



mf1 said:


> "next of kin are responsible if there is no estate for the payments to be taken."
> 
> No - they are not. If an estate is insolvent, relations cannot legally be held responsible for the debts of the deceased. Some families may feel a moral obligation - but its not legally enforceable.
> 
> mf



O the relief ..... that's good to hear!


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## csirl

*Re: Next of Kin*



doubledeb said:


> I am only going by experience here but I do know that anything outstanding on Finance (car), or with revenue, next of kin are responsible if there is no estate for the payments to be taken. If there is monies in the estate nothing will be paid to the benificarys until these debts are paid. I.E. those debts do not die with you. My experience was this time last year unless things have changed since then.


 
This is totally incorrect. The next of kin are not responsible for any outstanding debts e.g. car finance. The executor/administrator of the deceased estate pays all debts out of the estate. If there is no money in the estate, then the debts die with the person.


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## ajapale

Title expanded to reflect discussion.

aj
moderator


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## bond-007

Some creditors such as a bank, car finance etc may give the relatives the impression that they are liable for the debts of a family member. This is not true at all. 
I did have an unpleasant experience with PTSB when they attempted to collect a debt owed by a dead family member. He was sent packing.


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## ottobock

Theres a bereavement grant of €850 euro available from Social Welfare under certain circumstances which could be explored


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## Padraigb

ottobock said:


> Theres a bereavement grant of €850 euro available from Social Welfare under certain circumstances which could be explored



Here is where to explore it: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/c...h-related-benefits/standard_bereavement_grant


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## doubledeb

Apologys - as I stated there were assets in my case to cover outstanding debts


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## browtal

There is no obligation on family. If there are assets, expenses will be deducted before distribution of her estate. 
If something is willed to your mother or yourself will you refuse it.
The moral and christian issue is would you leave her above ground. Or the responsibility of the tax payer. 

Hope you soften your attitude or better still that she has assets to leave. The nursing home overcharge is not an issue as deductions finished about 6 years ago. If your relation has been in a nursing home since this refund, if granted, would be well used up.
If she has an estate the HSE would take a portion of it each month since last January to pay for her care.   Browtal


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## Concert

Well buried my aunt the other day.  Funeral money taken from her estate and yes we did the right thing, we paid for the meal in the hotel afterwards.  We do not want anything from my aunt, my mother is very confortable and we are, thankfully, ok as well so this is not at all an issue here.  Its just that a complete stranger befriended her over the years and it's well known this person is an opportunist.  We are worried that he will benefit and realize there is nothing we can do but I would prefer to see her money going to a reputable charity.


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## Padraigb

I am sorry for your loss, but pleased for you that you were in a position to do what you believe is the right thing.

If there is no will, then no stranger can inherit her estate. If there is a will, the first claims, before anybody can inherit anything, are debts, funeral, and testamentary expenses. In my non-expert opinion, the funeral meal has now become such a standard thing that it would be included as a funeral expense, and be a priority claim against the estate.

Wait and see if an experienced legal professional happens on this thread and comments on my opinion.


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## mf1

"In my non-expert opinion, the funeral meal has now become such a standard thing that it would be included as a funeral expense, and be a priority claim against the estate."

Its actually not an allowable expense. I have a casual ( i.e. its not a client) interest in an estate where this expense (amongst others) is being disputed. The levels of nastiness in these situations is beyond my ken. 

"Its just that a complete stranger befriended her over the years and it's well known this person is an opportunist."

Someone befriended her. They are well known as an opportunist. 
I find these two statements hard to reconcile. Surely, if someone befriended her.........

mf


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