# Average notice period (and payment to employer if broken)



## Newbie-employee (23 Apr 2015)

What is the average Irish notice period?  And at what salary-level etc ?

Coming to end of second month in new role and just presented with a contract requesting three months notice, with the added clause that where this is not fulfilled the company reserve the right to deduct an amount equivalent to the unworked portion of this three-month period as compensation.

I.e. were I to give 1-months notice despite my contract stating 3-months is required, not only would I not be paid for my final month of work but any carry-over of holidays for which I might have hoped to be re-imbursed is lost, if less than the amount I would still purportedly owe the company! I would owe 2-months salary which would eat up the 1st month and probably any carryover of holidays.  <I don't think they could ask me for a cheque for any remaining amounts =)  >

I am fairly okayly paid in an Irish context, but likely one of the poorest in an office full of senior group execs.  Apparently all contracts have been legally-proofed by law-firms.

My thinking - and I regret that this is necessary but in this day/age .. - but I must think about when I want to leave and can think that telling my next employer they must wait 3 months before I can join is pretty ... well ... I don't think the offer would be on the table for long.


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## TTI (24 Apr 2015)

That's crazy. I used to have a three month notice period, but the company usually worked to a six week notice... certainly no mention of seeking compensation in the contract!


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## thedaddyman (24 Apr 2015)

Without knowing the industry or the type of role involved, it is difficult to give an informed response to this. However, if it is a senior exec management role then 3 months may not be unreasonable to allow for a suitable replacement to be sought and some period of handover.

As for their right to claim back salary if you leave earlier then the 3 month period, how do they envisage enforcing that? They can't simply debit your bank account and the only way they could do that is probably via the courts

I presume as well that if they ever want to get rid of you in a redundancy situation, they will also need to give you 3 months notice


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## Newbie-employee (24 Apr 2015)

I guess I would be mid- to senior- management level in finance/accounting within a salary range of 60-80, and this is part of their argument (the seniority of the position) but I haven't heard of this amongst my peers in my profession.  

Re the money, I think in a situation where I give 1-month's notice (and not 3-months) they would aim to collect my not paying me my final month's wage and not paying for any accrued holidays worked up to the date of departure.


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## Purple (24 Apr 2015)

What notice period do they have to give you?


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## Newbie-employee (24 Apr 2015)

The same, 3-months. But I would very willingly forego that and revise that back to 1-month too (I mentioned this in the meeting).


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## stephnyc (24 Apr 2015)

Newbie

Dont suppose this is one of the 'big 4' ?

In my experience, this is not strictly enforced, except on a very rare occasion. However it is definitely used as a bargaining tool. You want 1 month, your contract says 3 - most people end up working at least 2 months (maybe using those overdue holidays to cover the rest). AFAIK you are right - they will only deduct any future salary/holiday money owing (so you get to work your notice for free - yay!), as it isnt worth their while chasing you.

I would really see if you can negotiate this now. Even getting to 2 months would be better.


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## Newbie-employee (24 Apr 2015)

Not Big-4, but in industry. And we're a new company in Ireland, I'm one of the first Irish employees - others will be relocating from abroad where this notice period is more common.  But then again, their packages are a multiple of mine.


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## Leper (27 Apr 2015)

Three months termination of employment notice is effectively unenforceable. Yours is probably an American company (just a guess) which has more laws and regulations than you would get in our constitution.  You will see that the "three month rule" can actually be more i.e. the last day of the full third month following your letter of resignation.  If I were you I would not panic (you are being well paid after all despite what your "co-workers" will be earning).

Another Guess:- Americans (It is likely you'll be calling them, The Yanks) like to do things big and fast.  I reckon that once you've submitted your letter of resignation the following morning, (at latest) you'll be marched to your desk by Security and allowed to take away some personal items only, then almost frog-marched to the lift . . .  sorry elevator and assisted in your last current working act through the Exit door (watched from above through closed window blinds). You, of course, will be paid for the three months.


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## Newbie-employee (27 Apr 2015)

Noppe, not a US MNC but a European one but owned essentially by an individual who will know me personally, for what I will be doing in the group.  Ie I won't be anonymous.  There does sometimes seem to be argy-bargy beyond the usual inter-office relationships (not shouting-matches, but close ..) and my fear is that whatever I will sign will be enforced.  While the Notice is unenforceable, withdrawal of payment for the final month and refusal of accrued-holiday-pay could be followed through upon by them.


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## putsch (27 Apr 2015)

Newbie-employee said:


> Noppe, not a US MNC but a European one but owned essentially by an individual who will know me personally, for what I will be doing in the group.  Ie I won't be anonymous.  There does sometimes seem to be argy-bargy beyond the usual inter-office relationships (not shouting-matches, but close ..) and my fear is that whatever I will sign will be enforced.  While the Notice is unenforceable, withdrawal of payment for the final month and refusal of accrued-holiday-pay could be followed through upon by them.




I worked for an Irish subsidiary of a French company where 3 months was the policy for all staff regardless of seniority. It was enforced, especially for the best workers!!!! Not enforced for useless people they ewanted to get rid of. No amount of negotiation had any impact on changing the clause.


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## Newbie-employee (27 Apr 2015)

Were there the payment clauses in that contract?  Were those enforced?


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## putsch (27 Apr 2015)

Newbie-employee said:


> Were there the payment clauses in that contract?  Were those enforced?


Yes and yes though most people just waited out the 3 months


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## Newbie-employee (27 Apr 2015)

From what you're saying, I guess, I will have to agree - but when it comes to time to leave to ensure I have taken all my holidays before I hand in Notice ... ... that way I will only work the final month for free.


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## Leo (27 Apr 2015)

Leper said:


> Three months termination of employment notice is effectively unenforceable. Yours is probably an American company (just a guess) which has more laws and regulations than you would get in our constitution.  You will see that the "three month rule" can actually be more i.e. the last day of the full third month following your letter of resignation.  If I were you I would not panic (you are being well paid after all despite what your "co-workers" will be earning).
> 
> Another Guess:- Americans (It is likely you'll be calling them, The Yanks) like to do things big and fast.  I reckon that once you've submitted your letter of resignation the following morning, (at latest) you'll be marched to your desk by Security and allowed to take away some personal items only, then almost frog-marched to the lift . . .  sorry elevator and assisted in your last current working act through the Exit door (watched from above through closed window blinds). You, of course, will be paid for the three months.




Having worked for a number of American multinationals, and being in IT, knowing many more who work across the major players, I've no idea where you're getting most of this from. There are exceptions of course, but they generally treat staff well, hence the lack of desire for those workforces to unionise.


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## Purple (27 Apr 2015)

Leo said:


> Having worked for a number of American multinationals, and being in IT, knowing many more who work across the major players, I've no idea where you're getting most of this from. There are exceptions of course, but they generally treat staff well, hence the lack of desire for those workforces to unionise.


In companies where there staff are high value they are treated very well. There are very few US multinationals left in Ireland where the employees are low value-add.
The moral of this story, or any issue around employer/employee relationships,is that if you want to be valued then make yourself valuable.


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## Newbie-employee (27 Apr 2015)

Purple said:


> The moral of this story, or any issue around employer/employee relationships,is that if you want to be valued then make yourself valuable.



That's my point, NOT. The CEO has a 6-months notice built in apparently, and the other higher-paids have similar clauses.  I don't want this.


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## Purple (27 Apr 2015)

Newbie-employee said:


> That's my point, NOT. The CEO has a 6-months notice built in apparently, and the other higher-paids have similar clauses.  I don't want this.


And you don’t have to take the job but from the employers perspective it is not unreasonable to look for long notice periods from key employees so that their business is not adversely effected by sudden departures. As a group you should be happy with this as it makes such a shock to the business less likely and so makes everyone’s job more secure. As long as there is similar notice periods from their side and you are well paid and well treated then it is fair and reasonable. As I said, you don’t have to take the job but if you do then you should have enough personal integrity to honour what you sign up to.
The gist of your posts seems to be “If I break my word will I be out of pocket and can the other party force me to keep my word”. Your own integrity should compel you to keep your word. There should be no discussion beyond that.


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## Newbie-employee (27 Apr 2015)

*I've been schooled .. .. ..* 
I agree. My thinking is they're very foolish to insist on 3-months for all staff and I did an interview last week with a different company. I haven't signed anything yet so I can get out quick enough.  This other company knows I've just joined/just leaving this company.


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## peno (27 Apr 2015)

Without knowing your industry/level of seniority it's hard to be definitive in any advice.
However I'd recommend taking a step back and not over reacting to this. There may well be a 3 month notice but if you are at what sounds like a relatively senior position then employers will expect you to have that notice period and will wait for you to complete it if that's what it takes. You can then come to an arrangement with your current company. I've had 3 months notice periods and twice I've left before that expired. Everyone was reasonable and grown up about it. They gave reasonable targets that I agreed to meet but at the same time reduced the workload in those last few months. No employer will want someone hanging around that has no skin in the game and doesn't care what they do for the 3 months and they don't want to be paying someone to sit back with their feet on the table which is what people sometimes do.

If you are really that worried about it i'd suggest talking to your current company and explaining that this 3 months will be a barrier to future opportunities and as such you will be stuck with them come good or bad. Due to this you sound be compensated etc It might get you a little increase.

You could also give a recruiter a ring in your field and see if the 3 months is really that much of a barrier to potential employers.


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## wheeler (27 Apr 2015)

As a follow question: I have a three month notice period but my employer only has to give me one month. Is this something I could use to say that I should also only need to give one months notice?


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## Newbie-employee (28 Apr 2015)

Hi Wheeler, I think you need to reread the advice given to me. In essence, no, you can't - if you break it, there's always the chance that new employer will ask old employer what the Notice period was.


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## Purple (28 Apr 2015)

wheeler said:


> As a follow question: I have a three month notice period but my employer only has to give me one month. Is this something I could use to say that I should also only need to give one months notice?


Can you clarify if you are being let go with one months notice or if this is just a question about your contract?


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## wheeler (28 Apr 2015)

Purple said:


> Can you clarify if you are being let go with one months notice or if this is just a question about your contract?


It's a general question. But it has been done - people have been let go with one months notice but the expectations of those same people would have been to give 3 months notice. I want to leave but the three months notice is putting me off trying.


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## Purple (28 Apr 2015)

It all depends on what's in the contract.


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## Gordon Gekko (28 Apr 2015)

Having a 3 month clause in a contract is generally a sign of seniority.

Any prospective employer should be willing to wait.


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