# Does Dublin really need 500 new tech jobs from Amazon?



## Brendan Burgess (30 May 2016)

Job announcements are always welcomed. 

But I think we should review whether they are always a good idea. 

Amazon will be employing 500 IT people, mainly in Dublin.

But is there a shortage of IT jobs in Dublin? I assume not. I think that there is a shortage of IT people to fill the jobs.

So many of these employees will come from abroad. Where will they live? No problem there, as their high salaries will allow them to push up the rents in Dublin. 

So how do ordinary citizens benefit? There will be more jobs providing services to Amazon. 
But where will these people live? 

Would 500 unskilled jobs in Ballymun be more welcome?

Brendan


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## JohnJay (30 May 2016)

I'm always very skeptical of these kind of job announcements. I wonder how many of these 500 jobs are already filled and how many of the 500 will actually come about. 

as for the 500 unskilled jobs in Ballymun - I wonder how many CV's would they attract? My contacts in the retail business are telling me that its increasingly difficult to find staff. I know one retailer who recruited staff from Poland during the boom - he says he will have to start recruiting there again soon as he cant find any staff here....


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## Setanta12 (30 May 2016)

I think you can tie in most of these announcements (and they've been happening for a few years now) to the BEPS project.


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## mathepac (30 May 2016)

"Amazon, which is headed up by Silicon Valley chief Jeff Bezos, is looking to add data centre technicians, software engineers, and customer support staff."

It isn't clear that all the jobs will be in IT. It is pretty clear that a number of them will be call-centre type jobs under the heading of "customer support staff."

http://www.independent.ie/business/jobs/amazon-to-create-500-new-jobs-in-dublin-base-34756759.html


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## odyssey06 (30 May 2016)

Something to bear in mind is that Amazon employs 1700 staff - not just in Dublin. I'm not sure what government policy could lead to 500 unskilled jobs going to Ballymun but it seems like we can get 500 more jobs onto the additional that Amazon already have here. The thing with IT is that you need a critical mass of IT professionals in the one place. Very hard to send them anywhere that doesn't have that critical mass. So the choice is between saturation and stagnation.


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## thedaddyman (30 May 2016)

Amazon are building a new data centre in Tallaght at the old Jacobs factory and work has already begun on the site. Ignoring the new announcement this morning, that will at least provide building and other trade work for over a year whilst it is built. I would expect, once it is built, a chunk of the 500 jobs will be based there. Basing places like this in Tallaght is good for the area and might actually make it easier for people in good high paying roles to live outside of Dublin in places like Naas or Kill and travel in easily.

It's also a good boost for the exchequer via increased PAYE and also for the local council in rates payments


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## jdwex (30 May 2016)

Data Centre Technicians and Customer Service Reps would not be particularly high end jobs


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## Brendan Burgess (30 May 2016)

OK, I got the impression that the jobs would be high end.

Amazon prompted my question, but it's not really about Amazon.

Is there any advantage in attracting more high end IT jobs to Dublin?   Or would we be better off attracting low end or middle ranking jobs where there are unemployed Irish people available to take them up?

Are there any figures for the numbers of Irish people and non-nationals employed by  Google and Facebook? 

Maybe the long-term advantages outweigh any short term disadvantages in that even if there are shortages of available skilled Irish staff, our colleges will adapt and start producing the staff to meet the demand?

Brendan


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## thedaddyman (30 May 2016)

Brendan Burgess said:


> OK, I got the impression that the jobs would be high end.
> 
> Amazon prompted my question, but it's not really about Amazon.
> 
> ...


We're not competitive in attracting low ranking jobs. Why would a multinational pay someone €20k a year here when they can get someone in Bangalore to do the same job for less then half the cost. ?


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## Protocol (30 May 2016)

The media, including just this morning on Radio 1, called them "high skilled jobs", even though then they listed out roles including call centre jobs.


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## odyssey06 (30 May 2016)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Is there any advantage in attracting more high end IT jobs to Dublin?   Or would we be better off attracting low end or middle ranking jobs where there are unemployed Irish people available to take them up?



I'm not at all convinced that the latter strategy is feasible. What low end or middle ranking FDI jobs can we encourage to come here? I got the feeling that IT is a successful strategy, but that even with IDA support, we cannot compete on low end or middle ranking FDI jobs vis a vis lower cost destinations. We can compete at IT.
So the strategy is (a) chase IT (b) do nothing (c) economic policies to encourage general growth.
If you want to expend low end or middle ranking jobs, tourism would seem to be the way to go?



> Are there any figures for the numbers of Irish people and non-nationals employed by  Google and Facebook?



I work in an Irish IT company, which is large for an Irish company but dwarfed by multinationals. Our new hires are running about 50-50.
Oracle recently announced 250 new roles for cloud sales specialists. I don't think there are 250 cloud sales specialists in all of Ireland right now, and they have made a definite commitment to re-skill applicants into the roles.

If 250 of the roles go to Irish staff, and 250 go to newcomers. Those 250 newcomers will be spending a lot of their money in Dublin. That's a boon to services sector which typically employs low to middle end jobs. And 500 high end jobs even within Amazon itself are going to need about 20% low to middle end jobs supporting them.



> Maybe the long-term advantages outweigh any short term disadvantages in that even if there are shortages of available skilled Irish staff, our colleges will adapt and start producing the staff to meet the demand?



That is a good point. We want LC students to be putting IT down as this is something we can compete at at a global scale.


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## Waver (30 May 2016)

Surely an increase in the number of people in high paid jobs be they Irish or people moving to Ireland will have a knock on effect on the local economy. More people in shops, restaurants, hairdressers, more children in crèches all of which employ people.


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## Brendan Burgess (30 May 2016)

I suppose my main issue is that if we bring in a lot of well paid non-nationals, they will need somewhere to live. They will up the rents and that will push locals out of their houses or further down the country. 

I assume that it's a good long term strategy to have high end jobs in Ireland. But we have a housing crisis at the moment, and are we not adding to it by bringing in people to do jobs which could be done elsewhere? 

Or should we say "You are welcome but set up in Roscommon."? 

Brendan


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## newirishman (30 May 2016)

Brendan Burgess said:


> I suppose my main issue is that if we bring in a lot of well paid non-nationals, they will need somewhere to live. They will up the rents and that will push locals out of their houses or further down the country.
> 
> I assume that it's a good long term strategy to have high end jobs in Ireland. But we have a housing crisis at the moment, and are we not adding to it by bringing in people to do jobs which could be done elsewhere?
> 
> ...



So you want to create a disincentive for companies to setup shop in Dublin because it will push locals out of their houses?
Solve the housing crisis by not creating any more jobs?

That sounds like a great plan.


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## odyssey06 (30 May 2016)

Brendan Burgess said:


> I assume that it's a good long term strategy to have high end jobs in Ireland. But we have a housing crisis at the moment, and are we not adding to it by bringing in people to do jobs which could be done elsewhere?
> Or should we say "You are welcome but set up in Roscommon."?



They aren't going to go to Roscommon. They might go to Cork or Galway. Or Gdansk. Or Zagreb. Or Lisbon. Or Belfast. Or Edinburgh. Or Cardiff. Or Manchester.

We can't stop people coming here. We're an EU member state. Closing the shop here for Irish jobs for Irish people isn't an option. It's another reason to tackle the housing supply issue and remember that as well as family homes, we need accomodation suitable for professionals like this.


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## Delboy (30 May 2016)

I have been saying this for the past 5 years - I shake my head in near despair when I hear of the latest IT jobs announcement in Dublin.
From talking to people down Silicone Docks, they tell me that it's 80-20 (non-nationals v's Irish) in job hires for a lot of these big announcements as the skills and languages required are not available here (a lot of the jobs are sales and accounts support, apparently London gets the high end IT development roles).

So to me these job announcements mean more pressure on housing = higher rents/higher prices. And that causes a drive for higher wages, higher cost of goods etc.

But it's a good press release for the IDA and the relevant Minister. And Enda Kenny gets to cut a ribbon or 2.
Zero long term planning


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## Setanta12 (30 May 2016)

Can we be sure that its the IDA driving this?  I would strongly suspect external influences are becoming more and more important.  It is the international climate out there, not the inducements we're offering.

(Maybe we should bring in some form of migrant-control?  These latest migrants Johann-come-latelys are pushing Old- and New-Irish out of their homes)


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## Brendan Burgess (30 May 2016)

odyssey06 said:


> We can't stop people coming here.





Setanta12 said:


> Can we be sure that its the IDA driving this? I



Very good points. 

I had assumed that the IDA (or whatever they are called today) were lobbying these companies to set up here. The last time I was in the airport, someone tried to get me to sign up for some scheme to attract foreign companies. 



Delboy said:


> From talking to people down Silicone Docks, they tell me that it's 80-20 (non-nationals v's Irish)



We clearly can't or shouldn't  stop non EU nationals from working here.  But should we be encouraging them to a place where there is a housing shortage? 

Should we designate Leitrim as a new high tech centre and try to encourage foreign companies to locate there instead of in Dublin? 

Brendan


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## 44brendan (30 May 2016)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Or should we say "You are welcome but set up in Roscommon."?


I assume that's a tongue in cheek comment Brendan! Other commentators have made the point that FDI jobs in Ireland will be middle to high end in line with our economy & competitiveness. The market for low & unskilled work is diminishing rapidly worldwide. This is the price (or benefit) of progress! Again as other posters have pointed out both the general economy and the broader workforce will benefit from the additional spending power of both the foreign and Irish additional workers attracted by these jobs.
Your point re Dublin location is an apt one and while an alternative small town location is unrealistic for obvious (infrastructural) reasons there is a strong case to be made for the Government to look at some alternative to Dublin that will have the population density to meet a level required for the high infrastructure etc to be a competitive alternative to our Capital for the multinationals. Both Cork and Limerick are currently too small and with some exceptions are largely ignored when FDI investment locations are being considered. However there is potential there to consider one or other of these cities as being suitable for growth and investment to a level that would be attractive to the multinationals. You rightly point out that Dublin is currently at saturation point and rent inflation and accommodation availability is currently and will continue to cause problems for those currently located there. Amazon already have a presence in Cork and yet seem determined to locate their expansion plans in Dublin presumably because they feel that Cork would not be attractive to their prospective employees!


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## jdwex (30 May 2016)

Amazon won't move or open facilities inLeitrim, and, with respect,  I doubt Bartek from Gdansk or Jupp from Amsterdam would have any interest in living there anyway. Mary Harney tried to tout Athlone to Paypal and was asked to sytop wasting their time, before they opened their centre near Blanchardstown. 

John Moran suggested recently we should could consider developing another major urban centre, it didn't fly well in rural Ireland.
[broken link removed]

It was suggested nearly 50 years ago in the Buchanan report that development should be concrenetated on a small number of urban area, small rural towns kicked up about.


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## Brendan Burgess (30 May 2016)

Here is how Amazon have explained their decision: 

Jeff Caselden, general manager for Amazon Ireland, told RTÉ that the company's decision to continue to invest in the Republic was down to a technically skilled work force and the infrastructure.

"Ireland's got a very creative culture and we're also a member of the European Union so there's a large talent pool we can pull from here.

"Secondly, the infrastructure that we have in the country is very suitable for what we need to do. Connectivity is very important to us.

"The transatlantic cables that connect North America and Europe terminate here in Ireland. There's good access to renewable energy."


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## thedaddyman (30 May 2016)

In fairness, there are high tech jobs outside of Dublin, look at Apple in Cork(40 jobs currently listed on LinkedIn)  and opening a data centre in Galway. HP have been in Galway for years, UNUM software came into Carlow a few years ago and employ over 100 people. There is however no getting past the fact that housing in Dublin, it's cost and availability is a disadvantage when it comes to attracting FDI into the Dublin area.


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## Delboy (30 May 2016)

Brendan Burgess said:


> We clearly can't or shouldn't  stop non EU nationals from working here.  But should we be encouraging them to a place where there is a housing shortage?
> 
> Should we designate Leitrim as a new high tech centre and try to encourage foreign companies to locate there instead of in Dublin?
> 
> Brendan


We've made our bed in the EU so agree, we can't stop people moving here from those countries. 
But not all IT jobs down there are going to EU nationals....Russians, Ukranians etc are coming in for the back office jobs that service those countries.

I'd designate Galway for the IT centre. It's got a reputation for the being a 'cool city' so that should help attract. Cheaper rents, etc. 
Just need to build the infrastructure and pack in the grants


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## jim (30 May 2016)

I think some of these tech jobs should be located in the midlands/west/north west where jobs and employment are needed. Why cant the government encourage this?

I think its wrong to assume that people dont want to live in a location other than Dublin. You might find that an awful lot of people would jump at the chance to live in these locations as long as the basics (and a bit more) are there which they of course already are! If the salaries etc were right then the right people would come!


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## odyssey06 (30 May 2016)

Let's say Amazon put 1000 jobs in Roscommon in a facility.
First scenario, one person in the family considers a job with Amazon, but what if their partner is working?
Will they also be able to get a job at the right salary if they work in a different sector?

Next scenario, you sell up in Dublin and move to Roscommon.
Amazon shut the facility in 5 years or announces a pay or promotion freeze.
What chances do you have of getting another job in Roscommon? If you return to Dublin, what price would your old house be?
What chance of getting your kids back into a school in your old area?

Even for the right salary, I wouldn't do it.
It could only work if there's a hub for a lot of different activities and you are moving to the *place *not for a *position*.

I don't think it's realistic to think you can create that hub outside of a current main city.


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## Leo (30 May 2016)

The big multi-nationals will never set up in small localities. They will go where the candidates are. I work in a company with around 1100 IT and related staff, ~850 in Dublin, ~250 in Galway. The US execs have stated in the past that they consider opening in Galway a mistake as it's too small a market to support the organisation and maintain a healthy turnover of staff.  
We've got a critical mass in Dublin that makes it easy to attract other companies, but we are paying the price for decades of poor planning and short-termed policy.


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## newtothis (30 May 2016)

Brendan Burgess said:


> But should we be encouraging them to a place where there is a housing shortage?



I'm still trying to work out if this is a serious question. As it stands, the IDA's job is to encourage inward investment to the country. There are three basic choices the IDA have: (1) come to Ireland, a great place for your business, (2) come to Ireland, but only to certain parts where we want you to locate or (3) we'd love you to come, but we're full right now. I assume you're arguing for (2) rather than (3)? As far as I know (it's been a few years now since I dealt with them), there are in fact greater incentives offered for those locating in disadvantaged areas. However, Amazon don't come here for whatever the IDA offers: they come (as they say themselves) because of the infrastructure, including the talent pool. Yes, for sure a lot of that talent pool is from the rest of the EU and wider afield, but so what?



Brendan Burgess said:


> Should we designate Leitrim as a new high tech centre and try to encourage foreign companies to locate there instead of in Dublin?
> 
> Brendan



You could try (and it has been tried), but it would be a complete waste of resources. There is now a well-established hub of tech companies located in Dublin: something many other EU countries can only dream of. Even if the IDA offered no incentives (did they?), Amazon would probably come here as opposed to elsewhere in the EU. Tech companies tend to cluster, whether it's Silicon Valley (not Silicone by the way, which is something completely different), Israel, Bangalore or Dublin. For global companies, you need a global scale tech centre and we're only likely to get one of those. Due to a lot of forsight and hard work by many over the years, we have one of those in Dublin: I think you'd be mad to do anything to dilute it. Unfortunately, forsight and planning by the IDA (and others) is not something we're very good at: hence the housing situation. Rural locations should play to their strengths: tourism and food production spring to mind.

So, the short answer is no, we shouldn't try an discourage this kind of inwards investment; rather we should get better at planning and delivering the supports needed to maintain it.


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## Ceist Beag (30 May 2016)

jim said:


> I think some of these tech jobs should be located in the midlands/west/north west where jobs and employment are needed. Why cant the government encourage this?
> 
> I think its wrong to assume that people dont want to live in a location other than Dublin. You might find that an awful lot of people would jump at the chance to live in these locations as long as the basics (and a bit more) are there which they of course already are! If the salaries etc were right then the right people would come!


As others have said, it has been tried and it just hasn't worked out. The likes of UNUM are struggling to get quality staff to locate to Carlow but on the flip side part of the reason for this is the poor salary being offered. Companies are prepared to pay competitive salaries for staff in Dublin but are not prepared to do likewise if located rurally - in fact the difference in salaries offered is massive.
On the one hand it's quite ironic really that the type of jobs which are ideally suited to being located just about anywhere with good broadband connectivity (and despite the view that our broadband network is poor, there are plenty of large rural towns with an adequate broadband network) are the very jobs which tend to be clustered together in these hubs.


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## Setanta12 (30 May 2016)

jim said:


> I think its wrong to assume that people dont want to live in a location other than Dublin. You might find that an awful lot of people would jump at the chance to live in these locations as long as the basics (and a bit more) are there which they of course already are! If the salaries etc were right then the right people would come!



Decentralisation, I remember it well.  All those civil servants fighting to relocate ... (ahem)


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## trasneoir (30 May 2016)

The global economy isn't going to wait for us to build a few thousand apartments, so we'll just have to play catch-up for a few years. The good news: what better incentive for private capital to build more/denser/better housing than a young, growing, well-paid work force in the neighborhood?

Yes, low earners will be priced out of the most desirable accommodation by people with deeper pockets. It has ever been thus. Universal poverty is not the solution.


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## Leper (31 May 2016)

I don't believe what I am reading from some intelligent people in this thread. I am reminded of those media broadcasters yearning for fame but once it is attained they want the privacy of a religious monk. It is only a few short years since two dozen new jobs in a fast food outlet made front page news.

Any kind of new job is good.  I don't care if the work is in a call-centre, financial institution, civil service and I don't care if it is Miguel from Madrid or Tommy from Tallaght gets the job.  The main thing is that somebody new is earning, spending and contributing to the public good. Those of us old enough to remember the real recessions of the 1980's also remember trawling through newspapers looking for non existent job vacancy ads.  Tradesmen were following JCBs in the hope of sourcing work. Now we have people whinging whether we should accept 500 new jobs in Dublin.

I'll tell you one thing as a father of two kids who emigrated some years ago; give us those 500 jobs in Cork.  We'll take them with outstretched arms.


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## Delboy (31 May 2016)

Leper said:


> I'll tell you one thing as a father of two kids who emigrated some years ago; give us those 500 jobs in Cork.  We'll take them with outstretched arms.


Won't be much use to ye in Cork if Russian, Greek or Ukranian are requisites for the job for example


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## Purple (31 May 2016)

Delboy said:


> Won't be much use to ye in Cork if Russian, Greek or Ukranian are requisites for the job for example


They are if you speak those languages.


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## Delboy (31 May 2016)

Purple said:


> They are if you speak those languages.


Of course...but how many people in Ireland can? 
So of no use to Lepers kids in that scenario


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## 44brendan (31 May 2016)

Delboy said:


> Of course...but how many people in Ireland can?
> So of no use to Lepers kids in that scenario


This would be a very narrow view to take without taking account of the fact that new jobs (whoever takes them up) mean extra spending power in  the area where they are created. This extra spending begets further spin off jobs as local business expand to meet the additional demand. In addition the income tax/VAT paid by the new workers (of whatever origin) benefits the Central Exchequer which allows additional Public sector expenditure and/or a reduction in Government borrowings. The core point is that we all benefit from the funds brought in through FDI and should not begrudge the fact that some of the jobs are taken up by non-nationals!  The "Little Britain" mentality currently being waged by many across the water is the main focus of the Brexit proponents and is reflective if the inability to see immigrants as anything other than a negative input to a country.


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## newtothis (31 May 2016)

Delboy said:


> Won't be much use to ye in Cork if Russian, Greek or Ukranian are requisites for the job for example



OMG! It doesn't matter: it's still a positive addition to the economy!

Even if 100% of the positions were filled with inward migrants, those people need to live: eat, drive cars, buy furniture, work in office buildings (which need building), whatever. Take a walk around the Grand Canal basin area some day and look around you. Compare and contrast with the wasteland it was just over a decade ago. As someone else has pointed out, is it a serious question to ask whther this is a good or bad thing? Why on earth do you think the economy has recovered to the extent it has given the position we were in? It certainly wasn't anything that happened in the local economy: that is only now coming to the fore.

And before someone mentions dependency, where do you think the dozens of new Irish tech companies have come from? Do you think they'd exist to anything like the same extent if the tech cluster didn't exist?

I still can't quite believe that people are questioning one of the few examples we have of long-term forward planning - the creation of a tech cluster - and suggesting modifying it to counter the abysmal absence of planning in the housing sector.


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## cremeegg (31 May 2016)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Amazon will be employing 500 IT people, mainly in Dublin.
> 
> ... many of these employees will come from abroad. Where will they live? No problem there, as their high salaries will allow them to push up the rents in Dublin.
> 
> ...



I think it is outrageous that people who grew up in a first world country, with all the opportunities that implies, including a first world education and health system who reach adulthood with no skills, should complain that foreigners are earning too much and pushing up housing costs.


At least the 500 new people will need someone to bring them coffee, and what else are the unskilled of Ballymun good for ?


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## Purple (31 May 2016)

cremeegg said:


> I think it is outrageous that people who grew up in a first world country, with all the opportunities that implies, including a first world education and health system who reach adulthood with no skills, should complain that foreigners are earning too much and pushing up housing costs.


Well said!


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## thedaddyman (31 May 2016)

There is a legitimate concern that the concentration of highly paid jobs in one industry in one area can cause a property bubble. San Francisco has a similar problem. It also has an impact on small local firms in tech who can't compete on the wage front. I know someone working in an indigenous long established IT company employing around 100 people. Every month he has staff coming into him saying they have an offer elsewhere €15k/€25k more then what they are on. He can't afford those salaries and remain competitive but he needs their skillset to also remain competitive so he is in a Catch-22

What will be interesting is what happens when the bubble bursts as all bubbles eventually do.

Having said all of that, none of it is a reason to turn away 500 skilled positions. If they come from overseas, so what? After all, plenty of Irish people went overseas in the past (and still are) for work and no one here says it's dreadful that we are going to other countries and "taking their jobs." 500 jobs like this will generate €10-€20m pa in income tax for the state alone, + VAT and other taxes from their spending. It will indirectly fund other jobs through spending as well.  It would be great to see those roles in Leitrim but the reality is, it's not going to happen regardless of what grants the Govt throws at it. Instead, the focus in areas like that should be on the SME sector to encourage local entrepreneurs instead of waiting on some foreigner to "build a factory" so the politicians can claim credit for


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## Delboy (31 May 2016)

newtothis said:


> OMG! It doesn't matter: it's still a positive addition to the economy!
> 
> Even if 100% of the positions were filled with inward migrants, those people need to live: eat, drive cars, buy furniture, work in office buildings (which need building), whatever.


Of course it's a positive addition...to the general economy. And it'd be even more positive in somewhere like Galway.
But to a lot of people it is not...it's just more pressure on housing costs/availability in an already crazy market.

That might not make sense to a lot of middle aged folk on here who own their own houses and are mid way through their careers in steady jobs


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## Purple (31 May 2016)

thedaddyman said:


> It would be great to see those roles in Leitrim but the reality is, it's not going to happen regardless of what grants the Govt throws at it. Instead, the focus in areas like that should be on the SME sector to encourage local entrepreneurs instead of waiting on some foreigner to "build a factory" so the politicians can claim credit for


 Very true but as long as employers are treated like the immoral exploiter of the "wurker" and people who risk everything to set up their own business will have over half of everything they earn taken from them by the state there's little hope of a real indigenous SME sector ever taking the lead role in the governments employment strategy, lip service from various Ministers for Trade and enterprise not withstanding.


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## Sophrosyne (31 May 2016)

newtothis said:


> I still can't quite believe that people are questioning one of the few examples we have of long-term forward planning - the creation of a tech cluster - and suggesting modifying it to counter the abysmal absence of planning in the housing sector.



I agree completely.

Why drag things down to the lowest common denominator?


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## newtothis (31 May 2016)

Delboy said:


> Of course it's a positive addition...to the general economy. And it'd be even more positive in somewhere like Galway.
> But to a lot of people it is not...it's just more pressure on housing costs/availability in an already crazy market.
> 
> That might not make sense to a lot of middle aged folk on here who own their own houses and are mid way through their careers in steady jobs



So, you're suggesting that the correct way to resolve the housing problem of cost and availability is to dampen demand by discouraging investment in a particular area? And the only reason someone suggesting that this might be a flawed approach is because they are not directly affected by problems in the housing market?

For sure, encourage investment in other locations, but as an addition to rather than alternative to the Dublin tech hub. As I said, this is already done, but the reality is that in an industry reliant on a highly skilled workforce, where those skills are in short supply, new investment will tend to cluster where the people are available, or are an attractive location for new immigrants (i.e. plenty of alternative employment opportunities).

To answer the original question "Does Dublin really need 500 new tech jobs from Amazon?", the answer is "yes, because it strengthens further the centre for such industry, and realistically the alternative locations for investments like this are almost certainly all abroad."


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## John Locke (31 May 2016)

newtothis said:


> To answer the original question "Does Dublin really need 500 new tech jobs from Amazon?", the answer is "yes, because it strengthens further the centre for such industry, and realistically the alternative locations for investments like this are almost certainly all abroad."


+1

I'm very surprised by this question too, maybe it's just because I work in IT. I'm living in the bubble 

The very reason companies locate in Dublin, or other tech hubs, is because the employees are there. And the employees are there because the companies are there.

You might as well ask a london investment bank to locate in land's end.


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## Purple (31 May 2016)

Thousands of people in Galway and surrounding areas work in the medical device sector as it is the worlds second biggest hub for the manufacture of cardio-vascular stents. Should new investments in that sector be located in the Galway area where the center of excellence and expertise is or should it be located in Wexford which is very short of jobs?


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## newtothis (31 May 2016)

John Locke said:


> You might as well ask a london investment bank to locate in land's end.


 Great example!


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## newtothis (31 May 2016)

Purple said:


> Thousands of people in Galway and surrounding areas work in the medical device sector as it is the worlds second biggest hub for the manufacture of cardio-vascular stents. Should new investments in that sector be located in the Galway area where the center of excellence and expertise is or should it be located in Wexford which is very short of jobs?



Another good example - same with the Cork region and pharma. These centres did not happen by accident: they were planned and built up over many years and attempts to dilute them are surely counter-productive, both to the centres themselves and ultimately the alternative sites.


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## cremeegg (31 May 2016)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Are there any figures for the numbers of Irish people and non-nationals employed by  Google and Facebook?



What difference does this make ?

There is a nativist tone to some of these postings that I don't like.

If my neighbour pays taxes, obeys the law and doesn't secretly believe in his heart that women have no role in public life, or that homosexuals should be executed, then does it matter if he was born in Wexford or Wroclaw.


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## Delboy (31 May 2016)

newtothis said:


> Great example!


Yeah, great example....Dublin v's Galway is the same as London v's Lands End


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## Delboy (31 May 2016)

cremeegg said:


> There is a nativist tone to some of these postings that I don't like.


The modern liberal equivalent of Goodwins law has just being broached 
Debate over. Good night!


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## Leper (1 Jun 2016)

Delboy said:


> Of course...but how many people in Ireland can?
> So of no use to Lepers kids in that scenario



So, there it is, given the challenge and ability to work Irish people will learn those languages.  We have always been a nation to adapt where work is involved. Did you not hear that Mayo fan entering the GAA ground in Ruislip on Sunday? (don't know how to insert the appropriate smilie here!)

Earlier in this thread somebody referred to government departments relocating to outside of Dublin.  Some of my neighbours used to work in the Central Statistics Office and sold their houses in Dublin at a generous price akin to a Lotto win.  They bought better but cheaper houses in Cork.  They spend all of five minutes each way commute every day, have fresh air, experience a better quality of life and their worst nightmare is driving through Dublin whenever they have to. 

I must say I am disappointed with some of the content of particular posters on this subject probably due to their smugness (a disease that has begun to grow again in Ireland). Perhaps "smugness" is too strong a word? I would hate to be arriving at their door asking for a donation to a 3rd world charity.


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## Purple (1 Jun 2016)

cremeegg said:


> What difference does this make ?
> 
> There is a nativist tone to some of these postings that I don't like.
> 
> If my neighbour pays taxes, obeys the law and doesn't secretly believe in his heart that women have no role in public life, or that homosexuals should be executed, then does it matter if he was born in Wexford or Wroclaw.


There are no non-nationals living in Ireland. There are plenty of foreign national, also known as non-Irish Nationals, but no non-nationals (think of Tom Hanks in an Airport Terminal).


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## Purple (1 Jun 2016)

Leper said:


> Earlier in this thread somebody referred to government departments relocating to outside of Dublin. Some of my neighbours used to work in the Central Statistics Office and sold their houses in Dublin at a generous price akin to a Lotto win. They bought better but cheaper houses in Cork. They spend all of five minutes each way commute every day, have fresh air, experience a better quality of life and their worst nightmare is driving through Dublin whenever they have to.


I have to say I have reservations about re-locating government departments to a foreign (Peoples) Republic.


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## MrEarl (2 Jun 2016)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Job announcements are always welcomed.
> 
> But I think we should review whether they are always a good idea.
> 
> ...




Hello Mr. Burgess,

Any job that results in a positive contribution to the economy is welcome.  Each person employed results in more tax being paid into the State, more cash being circulated around the economy, perhaps a reduction on the amount the State pays out in Social Welfare etc. 

The housing problem is not of Amazon's making and if anything, the risk that a lack of suitable and affordable housing might some day be the cause of an employer not creating more jobs in Ireland (but creating them in another country instead), is just another important reason to sort out the housing shortage immediately.

The shortage of skilled and experienced IT staff in Ireland will sort itself out, through a mix of more people electing to study and graduate from IT related disciplines, along with immigration.

You ask how the ordinary citizen will benefit, well they benefit by the positive contribution made to the economy by each job (in terms of tax payments).  This income paid into the State helps fund more capital expenditure, improved services, paydown of the national debt, tax breaks etc. 

Furthermore, the ordinary citizen benefits indirectly by each job created because whoever takes up that job puts money into the economy also - whether it's to buy a sandwich for lunch each day or whatever else they spend their earnings on.  All of this expenditure again pays into the economy, but also helps create or maintain other employment (such as the person making the sandwiches etc).

While 500 unskilled jobs in Ballymun might be welcome, they cannot be considered "more welcome" than the jobs announced by Amazon (for example).  All jobs should be considered equally welcome.  If anything, the fact that the jobs in Amazon are likely to be higher paying jobs than "unskilled jobs" is a positive factor and only supports the arguement for more training, so those currently only able to qualify as "unskilled" might enhance their chances of securing better paid employment in the future, after appropraite training.


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## Leper (2 Jun 2016)

Well said, Mr Earl. the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth. We cannot argue about the truth, well . . . except for a few exceptions here.


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