# Who actually pays for the fuel in the hose pipe ?



## mercman (4 Jan 2010)

This is an Interesting query. If a delivery of Oil is made, whether it be Fuel Oil or Heating Oil and when the tanker senses the Tank is full, it automatically stops pumping. The pump stops when the Hose is full of Oil. Are Consumers being billed for the Oil that remains in the Hose Pipe which is driven off for the next fill or replaced back into the Tanker (which I have seen been done). There could be a fair few gallons left in the Hose Pipe which is being billed to the Consumer !!

Anybody have an idea of this ??


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## Bronte (5 Jan 2010)

I guess it's the same for every delivery so you're not really losing out as it's built into the price of the fuel.  In any case how else would you propose they meter the oil?  I don't think it's something to get bothered about?  Your mind works in mysterious ways.


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## mercman (5 Jan 2010)

Bronte said:


> Your mind works in mysterious ways.



?????? So obviously you do not use fossil fuels or you simply do not mind been ripped off. You may not think it is worth getting bothered about but I do. Could be paying for 50 gallons of Oil which hasn't been delivered.

Do you work for an Oil company or in the Industry? How many local Oil companies do you ever see go out of business because of direct bad trading.


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## Ceist Beag (5 Jan 2010)

mercman your theory would only hold true if you felt that the oil left in the pump was sucked back into the tanker after each delivery. It's a fair question to ask, would be interested in how it works meself. Another possible answer is that the meter only starts once the oil leaves the pump nozzle, not the tanker. Actually this would make more sense now that I think of it!


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## mercman (5 Jan 2010)

Ceist Beag said:


> Another possible answer is that the meter only starts once the oil leaves the pump nozzle, not the tanker. Actually this would make more sense now that I think of it!



No the meter kicks in at the tanker side before the fuel enters the hose. I saw this happen when I was having Road Diesel delivered and the driver emptied the hose back into the Tank, as there was agricultural Diesel in the pipe. 

It is an interesting one but they are all at it and this is why it might take an age to get to the bottom of it. I do not mind paying for what was delivered. However I will be damned if I am going to pay for supplies that weren't delivered.


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## PGD1 (5 Jan 2010)

perhaps, if the truck holds multiple deliveries then you are getting a hose full of fuel for free at the beginning of your delivery, as long as you are not the first delivery.


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## mercman (5 Jan 2010)

No chance. It is for this reason that the meter is located at the tanker side and not the nozzle side. It is not just me. This matter occurs with any person that has delivery of il or Liquid Gas.


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## seantheman (5 Jan 2010)

might make sense to ask for say,900ltrs rather than a fill so you pay for the amount you get


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## QED (5 Jan 2010)

The oil is metered as it leaves the truck.

But - The hose is constantly full (and holds approx 80 litres). The customer does not get charged for any more than what passes through the metre.


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## mercman (5 Jan 2010)

QED said:


> The customer does not get charged for any more than what passes through the metre.



Is this a hope or definitive statement, as from where I am it does not look as clear as you make out.


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## seantheman (5 Jan 2010)

QED said:


> The oil is metered as it leaves the truck.
> 
> But - The hose is constantly full (and holds approx 80 litres).


 
Don't think this is correct, as pointed out by Mercman some wagons carry more than one type of fuel (kerosene/diesel/agri fuel) and sometimes have to suck fuel in pipe back into tanker.


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## QED (5 Jan 2010)

seantheman said:


> Don't think this is correct, as pointed out by Mercman some wagons carry more than one type of fuel (kerosene/diesel/agri fuel) and sometimes have to suck fuel in pipe back into tanker.


 
- The hose is always full even when the tanker is empty.
- There is always fuel coming out the nozzle of the hose if the meter is turning (and vice versa).
- The last 80 - 100 litres that passes through the metre does not make it to the customers tank. However, the first 80 litres that the customer got was past the metre when it was reset to zero before the delivery.
- If the next customer wants another product, the change must be made at just the right time to ensure that the current customer gets only the correct product.

My family have a small oil distribution business.


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## TKK (5 Jan 2010)

Ah this old chestnut...I've explained this to many many people...

The hosepipe on the truck is *never* empty. It is full when the truck arrives and it is full when the truck leaves. Even if the tank on the truck is completely emptied the hosepipe remains full. In fact the only way to empty it is to disconnect either end and manually drain it.

In the case of the truck arriving with the wrong product in the hosepipe it is not emptied - it is replaced with the correct product. Then, and only then, should the meter be reset so that the amount put into the customers tank is the amount on the meter.

BTW my father has run an oil business for over 20 years and I myself have worked part time delivering for over 12 years.


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## mercman (5 Jan 2010)

QED said:


> If the next customer wants another product, the change must be made at just the right time to ensure that the current customer gets only the correct product.



Now we are getting somewhere. So if Customer A wants Agri Fuel and Customer B wants Road Diesel, they are both paying for for a Hose full of Fuel but not neccessarily receiving it.


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## QED (5 Jan 2010)

TKK - Are you me??

(Although I don't think I'd ever say 'Ah, This Old Chestnut')


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## mercman (5 Jan 2010)

TKK said:


> The hosepipe on the truck is *never* empty. It is full when the truck arrives and it is full when the truck leaves.



I dissagree as I have seen where the pipe was emptied of Agri Diesel. Then and only then did the operator commence pumping the Road Diesel. Then the Driver was travelling to another property to deliver more Oil. Did not change over the Oil when at my property.

So therefore I have paid for a Hose full of Oil which I didn't receive.

The Tanker had different sections in it carrying different types of Oil.


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## QED (5 Jan 2010)

mercman said:


> Now we are getting somewhere. So if Customer A wants Agri Fuel and Customer B wants Road Diesel, they are both paying for for a Hose full of Fuel but not neccessarily receiving it.


 
The customer only pays for what they receive.

Customer A wants 1,000 L of Agri Diesel. The truck arrives with with the the hose already full of Agri Diesel. The meter is set to zero and the filling is started. 

When there is 900 Litres filled, the driver will change the fuel to a compartment containing Road Diesel. This Road Diesel will run through the metre into the hose, pushing the Agri Diesel into the Customer A's tank. 

When there is 1,000 litres filled, Customer A will have received 1,000 Litres of Agri Diesel and the Road Diesel will be at the nozzle of the hose for Customer B.


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## mercman (5 Jan 2010)

Maybe, but in the real world it does not work that way. In my own case I saw him empty the pipe with Agri Diesel, saw the Road Diesel been filled and the Pipe remaining full when he left. I have asked the questions to my suppliers and have not received ANY answer. So in essence I have been paying for a Hose full of Oil which I have not received.

I'm not in the Fuel business (it shows). Just another quirke for Oil companies to get richer at the Punter's expense.


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## MANTO (5 Jan 2010)

I can see how the system works as explained above regarding not being overcharged, but this does not explain what happened in mercmans case..

I wonder how many times this happens and i wonder how long you will be waiting for a reply???


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## manta356 (5 Jan 2010)

How did he empty the hose ?.If he pumped it back into the truck,it had to be replaced in the hose by what he was changing to,as the hose is always full.So he should only put your invoice into the metre after he has changed over to road diesel,so he starts your fill with a full hose the same as every delivery.
As explained earlier each hose holds approx 100 ltr,which is always full as there is a spring loaded valve at the delivery end of the hose which closes when the meter trips off,or when he closes the delivery gun.In normal circumstances the driver would change over to your fuel approx 100 ltrs before the end of his previous delivery,but sometimes an order comes in beside the one your at,even though it may be for different fuel and it wouldn't make sense to drive past and have to return again.
I was an Oil delivery person for 22 years,now retired from this work and would have no reason to try and mislead you or stand up for any one in the trade.We always carried three different products,road diesel,agri diesel,kerosene on the one truck,so we were always changing over from one product to another.


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## Brendan Burgess (5 Jan 2010)

Presumably this problem is faced by ordinary motorists every day at the petrol pump?  TKK has explained it well for the situation where there is only one type of fuel. 

But is poor Mercman vulnerable to being shortchanged if they have a multifuel hose pipe?


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## mercman (5 Jan 2010)

Manta, thank you for your Post. The Hose was emptied by pumping it back into the Truck. Whilst I accept the points you have made, it still leaves the question unanswered as to who is billed for the diesel in the pipe after the delivery, although it seems apparant that the person paying for it does not get delivery of it.

The same circumstance is with LPG.


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## seantheman (5 Jan 2010)

Mercman, are you 100% sure that the driver didn't refill the hose before he put your invoice into the meter?


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## QED (5 Jan 2010)

Mercman - At the start of the process you got a full hose of diesel that did not move the metre from zero for your delivery. This offsets the hoseful at the end.

I can't say it many more ways!! It is absolutely impossible to empty the hose during a delivery.


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## SparkRite (5 Jan 2010)

mercman said:


> The Hose was emptied by pumping it back into the Truck..


 
But this does NOT empty the hose, it simply changes the fuel, ie. (as stated before) the hose remains full, so when your delivery started it was also from a hose that did NOT need to "charged".

Therefore a 1000 litres metered = a 1000 litres delivered. QED!


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## SparkRite (5 Jan 2010)

QED said:


> Mercman - At the start of the process you got a full hose of diesel that did not move the metre from zero for your delivery. This offsets the hoseful at the end.


 
Not entirely true QED, once the dispencing nozzle is opened the meter will start turning, and as is obvious when dealing with a full hose, 1 litre dispenced = 1 litre metered.

So therefore there is never a case where "you got a full hose of diesel that did not move the metre from zero for your delivery"


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## mercman (5 Jan 2010)

I am at this point not disputing any of the contra arguments. But I know what I saw, I know what I was told by the driver, but fail to understand as to why the company will not issue me with an answer, clearly and straightforward. I also know that on one of a previous delivery when my Tank was completely empty, I was billed for more than the Tank actually holds, which has started this query.


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## seantheman (5 Jan 2010)

SparkRite said:


> But this does NOT empty the hose, it simply changes the fuel, ie. (as stated before) the hose remains full, so when your delivery started it was also from a hose that did NOT need to "charged".


 
But the hose has to be emptied if A got fill of marked fuel and B was going to get fill of Road diesel. I understand that if the driver knew he was going to B after A then he could switch off marked fuel 100ltr before full so as to push the marked fuel out of the line and to charge up line with road diesel for B, but i'm sure that drivers dont always know who the next customer is gonna be


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## manta356 (5 Jan 2010)

mercman said:


> I am at this point not disputing any of the contra arguments. But I know what I saw, I know what I was told by the driver, but fail to understand as to why the company will not issue me with an answer, clearly and straightforward. I also know that on one of a previous delivery when my Tank was completely empty, I was billed for more than the Tank actually holds, which has started this query.


 
A tank's contents as marked on the tank is an approximate measurement,which is normally about 95% capacity,or as it is called a nominal value.
To fill a tank completely it could hold maybe 110% of nominal capacity,or as it is known brimful capacity.
A tank capacity is an approximate value,whereas a metered oil delivery is an exact measurement as it is coming from a calibrated meter.These meters are checked and sealed regularly by officers from the Weights and Measures dept.


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## pjmn (5 Jan 2010)

A suggestion to resolve.....

Next time you are getting a fill - get them to fill say a five litre drum/bucket first - stop and check the reading on the lorry....  that should tell you if you are getting what the meter says...


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## woodbine (5 Jan 2010)

mercman said:


> I also know that on one of a previous delivery when my Tank was completely empty, I was billed for more than the Tank actually holds, which has started this query.


 
my own tank is 900 litre, and it has taken well over that. i would have to root out the receipt but i believe it was around 970 litres.

it's not relevant really, but when your tank was empty do you mean the tank was dry or that there wasn't enough oil in it to start the boiler? because depending on where the connection is on the outside of the tank, you could some oif oil left in the sump of the tank. (this is not relevant to your query, just a point of information)


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## Bronte (6 Jan 2010)

If your tank takes 1000 litres and your tank is filled with 1000 litres and you are billed for 1000 litres doesn't that answer the question?


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## seantheman (6 Jan 2010)

Bronte said:


> If your tank takes 1000 litres and your tank is filled with 1000 litres and you are billed for 1000 litres doesn't that answer the question?


With respect, this isn't really the question being asked. Your solution is, of course the simplest route to go down as i alluded to in earlier post. At this stage it has developed into all sorts of conspiracy theories
There has been a few posters saying the hose has to be full always. If you read the senario in my post 28 can anyone explain what happens in this case


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## Bronte (6 Jan 2010)

seantheman said:


> With respect, this isn't really the question being asked.


 
But if what I posted is correct then who cares what is or is not in the hosepipe?


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## seantheman (6 Jan 2010)

Bronte said:


> But if what I posted is correct then who cares what is or is not in the hosepipe?


 
Obviously the OP would like his question answered, as would I.Just because your post was correct doesn't mean the question has been answered


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## mercman (6 Jan 2010)

In the real world nobody ever knows exactly how empty their tank is and therefore they order a fill rather than an actual amount. In a 1500 litre tank circumstance the sight of 50 or 60 litres is hard to quantify.

Whilst the other Posts are noted, I think it fair to say that with the best will in the world, mechanical procedures might, can and could be be altered to suit every users needs.

I have asked again the Oil company that delivered the oil. When if ever a reply is forthcoming (should be the next few days) I will advise.


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## Mopsy (6 Jan 2010)

But if your are going with this theory, then when you get a delivery, you are getting what was left in the hose, after a previous delivery was made to some other, less inquisitive  customer, so it will all balance out! Maybe!









mercman said:


> No the meter kicks in at the tanker side before the fuel enters the hose. I saw this happen when I was having Road Diesel delivered and the driver emptied the hose back into the Tank, as there was agricultural Diesel in the pipe.
> 
> It is an interesting one but they are all at it and this is why it might take an age to get to the bottom of it. I do not mind paying for what was delivered. However I will be damned if I am going to pay for supplies that weren't delivered.


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## seantheman (6 Jan 2010)

Mopsy said:


> But if your are going with this theory, then when you get a delivery, you are getting what was left in the hose, after a previous delivery was made to some other, less inquisitive customer, so it will all balance out! Maybe!


 
A perfectly acceptable senario if everyone was having the same type of fuel delivered. Certain tankers are divided into compartments for different types of fuels!


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## tvcabinet (6 Jan 2010)

mercman said:


> This is an Interesting query. If a delivery of Oil is made, whether it be Fuel Oil or Heating Oil and when the tanker senses the Tank is full, it automatically stops pumping. The pump stops when the Hose is full of Oil. Are Consumers being billed for the Oil that remains in the Hose Pipe which is driven off for the next fill or replaced back into the Tanker (which I have seen been done). There could be a fair few gallons left in the Hose Pipe which is being billed to the Consumer !!
> 
> Anybody have an idea of this ??


 
If the hose is empty when the delivery guy arrives then the chances are you are being charged for something you are not getting.

You should ask the driver if it is full or empty when he arrives.


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## tvcabinet (6 Jan 2010)

Mopsy said:


> But if your are going with this theory, then when you get a delivery, you are getting what was left in the hose, after a previous delivery was made to some other, less inquisitive customer, so it will all balance out! Maybe!


 
Not quite because all you end up getting is the meter reading on the pump ie what you are paying for anyway.


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## phester (6 Jan 2010)

with respect to a delivery driver changing fuels between deliveries I knwo that what they do is change over fuels about 100lt (from memory) before the end of delivery. They then have a fuel line full of the correct fuel for the next delivery. This is what the delivery driver did at my house.

I do wonder what he does if you are the first delivery of the day?


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## TKK (8 Jan 2010)

Brendan said:


> Presumably this problem is faced by ordinary motorists every day at the petrol pump?  TKK has explained it well for the situation where there is only one type of fuel.
> 
> But is poor Mercman vulnerable to being shortchanged if they have a multifuel hose pipe?



If you read my post again you will see that I covered that as well. In the case where the wrong fuel is in the hosepipe it is *replaced* by the correct fuel prior to the meter being cleared for the customer delivery. 

I repeat - there is no way to empty the hosepipe on an oil truck without removing it from the truck.


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## TKK (8 Jan 2010)

phester said:


> with respect to a delivery driver changing fuels between deliveries I knwo that what they do is change over fuels about 100lt (from memory) before the end of delivery. They then have a fuel line full of the correct fuel for the next delivery. This is what the delivery driver did at my house.
> 
> I do wonder what he does if you are the first delivery of the day?



He changes it before leaving the depot.


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