# extension - advice please, which options to take



## luckystar (15 Mar 2010)

Hi all, hope people can offer advice please! planning to do an extension for a number of years now and right now seems to be a good time moneywise to do it but i'm not sure which avenue to go down.

i want to knock a single bedroom and bathroom and rebuild a 2 story extension in it's place, some internal modifications and decorate throughout.

i'll need to sumit drawings for planning permission so probably need an architect... here starts my dilemma!! I;ve had 2 architects out to look at house, neither filled me with confidence (also know them personally which can cause problems!)

so, is it wise to use an architect from beginning to end? does this mean they 'choose' the builder? will this ultimately be cost efficient at all? Or ending up costing a lot more?? I'm very confused by all this... it will cost so much money and time, i really need to go in with my eyes open!


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## TreeTiger (15 Mar 2010)

Sorry I don't know the answers to your questions, but I noticed [broken link removed] about using architects in the Indo over the weekend which may be of interest.


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## luckystar (15 Mar 2010)

Thanks TreeTiger, i might just give Studio red a call!!


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## onq (15 Mar 2010)

luckystar said:


> Hi all, hope people can offer advice please! planning to do an extension for a number of years now and right now seems to be a good time moneywise to do it but i'm not sure which avenue to go down.
> 
> i want to knock a single bedroom and bathroom and rebuild a 2 story extension in it's place, some internal modifications and decorate throughout.
> 
> ...



Hi luckstar,

Yes you should use an architect from beginning to end.
Yes, any worthwhile endeavour costs money and time.

However, here is where things start to get interesting:

No competent architect will recommend a builder without qualification or suggest that you choose a builder without a tender process and you should steer clear of any that do so.

A qualified recommendation might include a list of builders with whom they have worked and found diligent and competent.
The qualification in the current climate that you don't know what the staffing levels are like or whether the current team is at full strength.
Two years ago the qualification was that any builder might be difficult to keep on the job because of pressure of work.
Regardless of comment, the architect should investigate any builder on the eventual tender list to see if they can provide a competent, compliant service NOW, as opposed ot what they may have done a year ago.

This is also partly because a lot of builders have taken on badly paid work to keep going over the past year or so and have traded below cost, with the result that their debts are steadily rising and they may eventually go bankrupt on a job - possibly yours.
This needs careful investigation by the architect before the contract is signed and may involve a review of the builder's accounts and tax certificates.

The choosing of a builder starts with the assembly of the list of prospective tenderers, which may as noted above include builders the architect have worked with before.
This is where a Quantity Surveyor can be very useful on small work, because he will know the work of a range of builders some of which will be well suited to the scale, extent and difficulty of the work you want done.
Even without one retained formally, your architect may request comment from one for a builder of choice.

In relation to the work, the difficulties with extensions centre on the tightness of the site, the possibiliyt of continued occupation during the works and the need to provide both temporary and new permanent support for the existing building.

Allow me direct you to two threads in this forum for a general background:

*Key Post What to ask the architect at our first meeting  *
http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=131450

And

*Key Post Self-Build FAQ  *
http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=126261

There are many other useful posts and indeed *Key Posts* on this Forum, but these two should help get your head around your endeavour.

In relation to overall cost and complexity, your architect will firstly review your own assessment of what you need and your wish list.

Your architect will then assess your way of life and what your circumstances suggest you may need to consider doing with the house in a few years - this to include a degree of future proofing into the design.

Finally your architect will assess the building, the site, the planning contstraints and your budget and recommend what seems to be a good balance between what you want the house to become, what the house can become and what your architect's design requires.

There is no need to assume your budget will go out the window because you have an architect retained.

Many architects will work for a fixed fee - once this has been agreed and a letter of appointment signed, your architect can work both on the design and with the builder to reduce the overall costs of the project.

For example, depending on the floor area of any existing extensions and the area you require, your architect might be able to design your extension to avoid the need for permission, by keeping the design withing the parameters set by the Exempted Development Regulations.

Equally, instead of jumping through hoops to avoid getting a permission, your architect might come up with a very cost-effective means of building and future proofing that does require a permission and your architect will guide you expertly through that process.

Finally regardless of the route chosen, you may have to negotiate with your neighbours in relation to - for example - building along a boundary and offering them later support of the same wall as a sweetener - your architect can advise on, help conduct, and provide documents and sworn maps to assist your solicitor in finalising a binding agreement between the parties.

The architect's job is to provide competent design services, but any architect of 10 years experience or more should have some conveyancing experience, tender experience and contract experience.

Therefore, he will advise on establishing the list of tenderers, the form of tender, the form of contract and conduct post-tender negotiations on prices and improve buildability to reduce overall costs.

Hopefully this brief resumé of the architects role, responsibilities and strengths will offer some comfort as you set off on this great adventure.



ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at hand.


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## luckystar (16 Mar 2010)

ONQ, I can't thank you enough for your reply. It's a huge insight and a number of things i hadn't considered. I suppose i have felt that it's a daunting task as opposed to an exciting one... 

Again, many many thanks


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## onq (16 Mar 2010)

(chuckle)

You're very welcome luckystar and I hope your experience matches your nic on this.

It is a huge adventure for most people and the important thing to do is maintain your credibility with your finance house at all time.

Go in for more than you need rather than trying to cut it to the bone if your borrowing, because the chances are the price will rise for various unforeseen reasons.

Tie in your borrowing to amounts certified by your architect, so that if there are unusual expenses not covered by the above strategy, you'll still be able to seek some additional funding.

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at hand.


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## Cannon (25 Mar 2010)

luckystar said:


> Hi all, hope people can offer advice please! planning to do an extension for a number of years now and right now seems to be a good time moneywise to do it but i'm not sure which avenue to go down.
> 
> i want to knock a single bedroom and bathroom and rebuild a 2 story extension in it's place, some internal modifications and decorate throughout.
> 
> ...


 Hi Luckystar
We went through the same process about two years ago, trying to decide how to take the plunge with regards to an extension.  In the end we thought it might be easier just to try and sell and buy.  However after being lucky enough to meet an engineer who was willing to take on the role of helping us with the design and then take care of the whole project, our experience was nothing but positive.  While our extension was a reasonably simple design, there were enough excellent features suggested by the engineer to give it that something.  The 500 sq extension took 3 months, did not go over budget.  The engineer put the tender out to about four builders, two he knew, one that I was recommended and a wild card.  They all had to sing from the same hymn sheet, i.e. they had to tender for the same spec, so we all knew where we stood.  The only painful part was paying the engineer fees (included cost of quantity surveyor) but in the end this was money really well spent.  It made taking the plunge much easier.  If you interested in finding out more, please PM me.


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## onq (25 Mar 2010)

Cannon said:


> (snip) The only painful part was paying the engineer fees (included cost of quantity surveyor) but in the end this was money really well spent.  It made taking the plunge much easier.  If you interested in finding out more, please PM me.



It is SO encouraging to hear from a poster with a positive experience of using a competent building professional.

ONQ.


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## Shawady (25 Mar 2010)

Luckystar,
I am about to start build on an extension and we were not sure whether avail of an architect but we did and so far I think it is worth it.
I would aggree with a lot of the comments that ONQ made and the architect certainly brought  a lot to the table that we may not have considered.
If you get one that will work for a set fee it would not be a bad idea to use them from start to finish.
We will probably only start our build next month but so far I feel it has been money well spent.


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## TreeTiger (25 Mar 2010)

A cautionary tale - I just recently called around to a friend who had a major extension/renovation job done at her home.  She didn't use an architect, just got a builder who she "trusted" to give her a price, no plans were drawn up.  During phone calls to me in the course of the build she often mentioned that the builder had informed her that some things could not be done the way they originally planned.  I am firmly of the belief that these were things that he should have known before the build started - one of the problems was that a drain "couldn't be moved" so the size of the extension had to be reduced.  Various other issues that arose mean that the finished job is significantly altered from what was originally invisaged, and this was down to the builder.  I think if my friend had engaged an architect she would have very likely got exactly what she wanted.

That said, I think it is important to be happy with an architect you choose.  Recently I watched "Room to Improve" on RTE and the couple the architect were dealing with kept saying they wanted a traditional roof on their extension.  Dermot Bannon, the architect, kept telling them they were wrong, a flat roof was the right roof for the job.  The couple had a horror of flat roofs and really didn't want it, Dermot Bannon wouldn't give in.  As time went on, the couple went for a traditional pitched roof anyhow.  Viewers never got to see the finished build which was very disappointing, but I wouldn't be surprised if the homeowners just told the makers of "Room to Improve" to go away and leave them alone.

Sometimes I think architects want you to have what they want you to have, not what you want to have.  But the client is the one who has to live with the design, so it's important to be happy and not to be persuaded to accept a design you don't like.


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## Shawady (26 Mar 2010)

TreeTiger said:


> Viewers never got to see the finished build which was very disappointing, but I wouldn't be surprised if the homeowners just told the makers of "Room to Improve" to go away and leave them alone.


 
I seen that programme too but to be fair what happened there was the couple went and got the builder to make the extensions slightly bigger without discussing it with the architect. They didn't realise that this took them over the 40sqm which is exempt from planning permission. By the time the architect found out it was too late and they had to stop the build for 12 weeks and apply for planning permission for the bigger sized extension.
I too got the impression they did not want RTE or the architect to have any further involvement, but would have been interested to see if the pitched roof was as horrible as he was making out.


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## luckystar (21 Apr 2010)

Hi all, sorry it's taken me so long to come back.. I have booked a consultation with an architect and another to come out to me. I'll keep you posted. (Cannon i will pm you for more info...)

But i do have a query (btw if anyone can give me a conversion for sq feet to metres i'd appreciate it!)

After doing a lot of research it would appear that the cost of an extension would be approx €1400-1900 per square metre? Anyone have any views on that??


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## onq (21 Apr 2010)

Multiply square metres by 10.764 to get square feet.

Divide square feet by 10.764 to get square metres.

[broken link removed]

[broken link removed]

ONQ.


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## Sconhome (21 Apr 2010)

luckystar said:


> Hi all, sorry it's taken me so long to come back.. I have booked a consultation with an architect and another to come out to me. I'll keep you posted. (Cannon i will pm you for more info...)
> 
> But i do have a query (btw if anyone can give me a conversion for sq feet to metres i'd appreciate it!)
> 
> After doing a lot of research it would appear that the cost of an extension would be approx €1400-1900 per square metre? Anyone have any views on that??



In some cases you can get €1000 per m sq or €2,000 and upwards. It really all comes down to what your specification is and to what level of completion your contractor is going to bring the project to.

Prices at the lower end can be indicative of finishing to a 'builders finish' no paintwork, no floor finishes that kind of thing, the structural elements are covered and the 'beautifying' of the project is down to you.

Higher prices are usually more turnkey finishes and can also be a result of tight access, disposal permits for street skips, those kind of smaller details can have a big affect on costs.

You will also have price variation for the level of structural steel if open framed construction, your choice of windows and doors ( and quanity) can throw budgets sky wards.

For example to give you a really rough guide:

Forget about roof and foundations for a moment. Standard twin leaf cavity wall construction can cost approx €65-85 per msq or roughy €120 per msq including render and plaster etc. This is surface area of the blockwall, not floor area.

A 1 m x 1m window can cost around €500 (per msq).

A bi-fold aluminium door 2.4m x 2.1m will be roughly €700 per msq.

There is a lot of variety in projects and it really is down to good communication with your design team (architect, engineer and builder) to work within you wishlist and your budget.

If you work from a guide base in the mid region of €1500 per msq you can tailor your design and level of finish to suit your overall budgets. Do shop around and seek competitive tenders from architects too in exactly the same manner that you will source budgets from contractors. You do need to find someone you can work with at all levels of the project.

Good luck!

Sean
[broken link removed]


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## luckystar (22 Apr 2010)

Sean, thanks for the insight... now herein starts the issues surrounding my initial post.

Had an architect out last night who said these days i'd be expecting to pay around €3,000 per m sq... and that would NOT include windows!!!! Seriously???? Bit taken aback by that....


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## onq (22 Apr 2010)

luckystar said:


> Sean, thanks for the insight... now herein starts the issues surrounding my initial post.
> 
> Had an architect out last night who said these days i'd be expecting to pay around €3,000 per m sq... and that would NOT include windows!!!! Seriously???? Bit taken aback by that....



Hmmm

€3,000 /sq.m. ~ €278 / sq.ft.

Architects aren't quantity surveyors.

We got a detailed budget cost estimate done by a QS last last year for a 4,000 sqft house which topped out at around €800,000 or €200 a square foot.

This was for a 3-storey house in Dublin, concrete intermediate floors, rear sunroom, three en-suites, a bathroom, front ground floor bay windows.

Not the cheap seats by any means, although the QS said we might do better on the spread of tenders.

The point being that your €278 a square foot seems very high.

Hoewever this depends on spec, landscaping, services, etc.

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon  as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be  taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in  Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at  hand.


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## Sconhome (22 Apr 2010)

onq said:


> Hmmm
> 
> €3,000 /sq.m. ~ €278 / sq.ft.
> 
> Architects aren't quantity surveyors.



Neither of them are builders!!

The only way to gauge the cost of your project is to work your design on the basis of the guestimates from architects, the appraisals by QS and the real costings by a builder.

Find a couple of decent builders, speak to them outline your project and ask them if they would like to be involved in a tendering process. Set out your stall and be honest from the start and the whole process can be exciting as all parties get involved and work in your best interests as a client.

A good builder can give fairly accurate budgets off the plans with the knowledge of the site conditions. As you tweak designs with your architect your builder (& QS) should be involved to give real time updates until your budget and vision is achieved.

A successful project completed on time and on budget is invariably one which is build using a coordinated design team.

The rates I have indicated are pretty representative of the market as it stands with a sliding scale which can be indicative of where on the primate evolutionary line your builder stands.


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## luckystar (25 Apr 2010)

Sconhome and ONQ, your right about giving a quote. Everything is subjective and so much depends on so many variables!

Anyway, as i mentioned architect No.1 suggested 3k per m sq was still a rough cost and their fees would be 9.6%

On to architect No.2, again the 3k figure was trotted out and his fees would be 11-13% for such a 'small job' (120k plus by his figures!!)

Anyway, feeling quite deflated by the whole thing and yet again considering putting it off as i can't seem to pass the first hurdle... fast forward to architect No.3

Breath of fresh air, she is wonderful, Fantastic ideas and genuinely interested, thought region of 1500 per m sq was a realistic budget and SHE CHARGES A FLAT FEE!!! Am seriously overjoyed and am now getting excited about it all.

Mainly wanted to say a big thank you to all of you for your information and advice, I would have foolishly taken the other two's words as gospel and given up on the whole project.


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## onq (25 Apr 2010)

Well, I'm delighted things seem to be working out.
You can always get a second opinion if the professional you're talking to isn't saying what you want to hear.
I think you did the right thing luckystar, but for readers of this forum you should remember that sometimes its the one you don't want to hear that's actually telling the truth.
If you feel you're getting a good service, may I respectfully suggest that you show your appreciation to your architect if she has cut her fees to the bone for you.
In these recessionary times any token of appreciation will be warmly welcomed.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon      as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be      taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in      Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at      hand.


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## luckystar (13 Jul 2010)

Well, back again! Architect no.3 seems to be at a snails pace! Came out 3 weeks ago and spent 2/3 hours measuring up... and still no sketch design!!! Is this normal? (had promised the following week) I don't like chasing people and feel if it takes so long to get a design how long will all the other stages take! 

Have been promised something this week but if it doesn't materialise I might have to start the architect hunt again 

Am i being unrealistic? This process has been so drawn out for me already but i just want to get something built! I'll take anything at this stage!!


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## Cannon (14 Jul 2010)

Hi Luckystar, sorry to hear you're going through what we went through a few years ago.  However there is always light at the end of the tunnel if you have a budget and a sympathetic engineer.  While our engineer charged us high fees as mentioned in my earlier post, it got the job accomplished and well finished within a tight deadline.  He looked after everything from the full building spec to finding the right builder from several choices to keeping to our budget.  His first few consultations were free along with a fairly accurate costing before we agreed.  This is important as you really know where you stand then.  He worked to our budget.  Communicated promptly to any questions we had and the builder responded promptly to his requests.  This guy was a Godsend.  If you negotiate a good fee with him from the beginning and have him on side you could have your extention completed in a couple of months and save on all this agony.


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## picorette (15 Jul 2010)

3 weeks is not unreasonable if you want a good design, rather than a copy and paste. She would have had to draw up the existing house first, which takes a while.

Best thing is to speak to her, and if she doesn't take your call, leave a message with a deadline. That should gets things moving, as I'm sure she doesn't want to lose you as a client


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## luckystar (18 Feb 2011)

Hi all, back again! I can't believe it's almost a year since my original post.

Things have moved to planning permission at long last; I should have a decision in a couple of weeks. Then the fun starts ;-)

No decision on a builder as yet, I think when permission comes though (fingers crossed) we will go to tender.

Now I am getting nervous. Part of me thinks in the 'current climate' I must be mad to even consider spending so much money. But hey, I suppose it has to be done eventually! 
Have builders prices really come down a significant level? 
Because so many are going out of business is there more that should be considered i.e. is there insurance for these types of eventualities?


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## onq (18 Feb 2011)

Hi Luckystar,

Glad to see things progressing for you.

Looking back on this thread, you have already received plenty of good  advice to see you safely on your way, so no point repeating it.
Perhaps I'll jsut remind you to consider using an architect or QS to source builders, as they  may have relatively recent knowledge of ones they have used.

Update: I recently priced a new build house in Dublin and for the bare house - excluding site clearance, siteworks, boundary treatment, private road and attenuation chamber - it worked out at circa €85/sq.ft.
This does not reflect the costs of extending a property, because there will be hidden extras - tying in with services and marrying in foundations, new beams etc. - but it gives you an idea of what's achievable.
€100/sq.ft for good competent work is do-able and you may get below this.

This is a good time to get prices, but the warnings I have issued over the past year here on AAM and over on Archiseek are now bearing fruit as main contractors who have engaged in tight pricing go to the wall.
Some have not paid their sub-contractrs in order to keep going [as seen on a recent TV exposé] and this has left a lot of sub-contractors all around the country in severe financial difficulty.
They are in difficulty not because of bad practices or below cost selling but because they have not been paid  monies due, monies the main contractors have billed the employer for.
This increases the risk that they could go under while working for you if the4y are carrying previous debts, even on a reasonable price for the work.

Whether it is better to wait for a year [you have five years in which to build] or build now is up to you, but [famous last words perhaps] I would be surprised if the rate of  builder's price reduction continues.
This is still a very expensive country to live in, from the cost of public transport to the cost of a pack of cigarettes [€8.50 as opposed to €4.00 in Italy, for example] to a packet of crisps [15c markeup].
There is only so much a market will take before it reaches rock bottom and in my opinion, the spate of large contractors going under shows this point may have been passed.

One final thing - the interest rates for borrowings may go up next year.
I would urge you to try to fix or ring fence your repayment rates in some way.
Otherwise you could be in difficulty depending on how thsi work stretches your current status.

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon  as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be  taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in  Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at  hand.


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