# Divorce and family home



## Knitwood (28 Aug 2020)

I will give a little history:

My parents marriage came to an end in the 90s.  My father was a cheat and a drunk.   Eventually he moved out from the family home leaving my mother and me and all my siblings.  He bought another house. They spent a long time separated and never divorced.  My father developed debt issues in recent years and the family home got caught up in his debt.   His debt issues is down to alcoholism but he will maintain the loss of his business no doubt.  My mother had to move on a divorce to separate herself from his debt. 

I live at home with my mother.  I work hard but my wage doesn't pay a rent.  My mother got a letter for the divorce hearing. In the letter it said that it is likely the judge will order the sale of the family home.   Needless to say this has shocked me and floored me.   Living with this threat hanging over us.  I am sickened too.   My father left us to live in borderline poverty. The family home was in a bad way and I spent a lot of my 20s working hard and doing up the family home, for a treat for my mother.   Like new kitchen and bathroom was needed.  New sitting room too.  The house was in bad way.  So to discover 10 years later the family home was a black hole.  

There was no mortgage on the family home.   There was a small community loan on it but that was it, so there was no mortgage on the home.  Its registered in my father's name.  

I know I'm not considered a dependent any more because of my age.   

Would a judge still order the selling of the home and put us out on the street? My mother is pension age?

If it does go that way, how long of a time frame would we be looking at? 6 months? 1 year? 18 months? To sell the family home. 

This has been my home since I was small.   It doesn't appeal to me to sort out 40 years of a live in every room and sorting it all out would reduce my working opportunities and earning opportunities too, so it will be a bit of double edged sword right there.  

The hearing isn't for another few more months but I don't feel well with this threat hanging over us. 

I don't think my father is looking for his share in the family home.


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## AAAContributor (28 Aug 2020)

Sorry to hear this. 

Legal facts need to be established and to head off any looming anxiety I'd be heading straight to a solicitor. Catastrophising will do you no good right now.

I am not in the legal field but if your father is not pursuing his share of the house, it strikes me as very unfair that a forced sale would be put on you and your mother. It's not clear what level of recourse your father's creditors would have to the family home or whether he pledged it as collateral somewhere. 

What is your relationship like with your father? Presumably not great given what you describe. Are you on good enough terms to establish any facts from his side? You mention that you don't think he is looking for his share. Can you establish that from him? Also - has your father engaged any personal insolvency/debt experts?

Your statement about helping to sort out every room "would reduce my working opportunities and earning opportunities" is a little concerning but you are obviously under a lot of pressure. You will cope with this with the right legal help in the first instance and hopefully family/friend/counsellor support.

Look to establish contact with a solicitor as soon as you can and best of luck.


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## Thirsty (28 Aug 2020)

IANAL

Can I clarify a few points?

Your parents are separated for many years.
Was a Separation agreement or Judicial Separation ever put in place?
Was spousal or child maintenance the subject of a court order? and was it paid?

Is there still a charge (loan) on the family home?

If your father is not looking for his share of the family home, who is?

Who is this letter from?


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## Knitwood (28 Aug 2020)

The letter is from my mothers divorce solicitor advising her of the possible outcome. 

There was no formal separation agreement. My mother was afraid to persue maintenance because he was violent and she knew it would cause a lot of trouble. She tried to keep herself and us safe from him. No maintenance was ever paid.  

There is no charge on the family home.   

The family home was in name. My mother's name never appeared on the land register.  Along with my father being in debt on his second mortgage, he has a revenue debt.  Revenue has judgement mortgage on all his properties which also includes the family home.  My mother attended to a solicitor and there was a notice of marriage put onto all his property to protect the family home from revenue coming in and ordering a sale of the family home.   My mother moved onto the divorce route.  Shes looking for nothing but the roof over our heads from the divorce.


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## Knitwood (28 Aug 2020)

The house was never put up as collateral.  I'm now estranged from my father for the damage he's done.

I worked hard and saved hard in my 20s to put some shape on the family home because it was neglected.  It's very hard to stomach now that it was a black hole.

If a judge orders the sale of the family home, it would mean my work and earning potential would be reduced because of spending time clearing out the home.  It will be a headache of a job.   It's a family home for 35 years. Where do you start to pack everything away.

Unfortunately I'm not in a position to take on a mortgage so buying back the family home is off the cards.


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## Thirsty (28 Aug 2020)

> spending time clearing out the home. It will be a headache of a job. It's a family home for 35 years. Where do you start to pack everything away.


At the risk of sounding morbid, when family members die that's exactly what people have to do.  I've done five.

I'm still not following some of your replies.

So far as I understand it, your mother has applied for divorce, since there is no previous agreement or Judicial separation those issues have to be settled now and that includes the family home.

So yes there could well be a court order that the family home is to be sold.  You can however argue, with some justification, that any revenue debt if that is charged on the property, should be met from your father's share.   There also has to be an allowance for the cost of maintenance and upkeep over the 20ish years.

Can you raise enough to clear the revenue charge & have your father sign the property over to your mother?  Would he do that?  Have you worked out the figures in regards to the current market value of the property and the charges against it?


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## Knitwood (28 Aug 2020)

If it does come to the situation where the judge orders the selling of the house, how long of a time frame would we get? 

There was no previous agreements.   She's going down the divorce route to separate herself from his debt.  I understand the family home has to be settled now.  

The threat of losing the family home and the rood over our heads is daunting. 

Unfortunately I'm not in a position to pay off my father's revenue debt either because it is quite substantial, approximately 38,000 euro.  

The last I heard from him, he was dealing with mabs and there was a plan drawn up pay down on the debts.   That was about 18 months ago or so.  I don't know if that is working for him now because everything has been caught up in the divorce.


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## AAAContributor (28 Aug 2020)

You mention you have siblings. Are they of much support to you and your mother, financially or otherwise?

Your father seems to have left a trail of destruction in his wake but first and foremost you need to protect yourself and your livelihood. I'm not sure I quite follow how sorting out the house would "mean my work and earning potential would be reduced." If the absolute worst comes to the worst, and I sincerely hope it doesn't, the sorting out will just have to fit around your work. Surely your siblings would assist you so that it is not all on your shoulders?


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## Knitwood (28 Aug 2020)

Thanks for the reply. 

Hopefully it doesn't come to it.  My siblings are fantastic.  2 of them are abroad in Australia.  If the worst comes to the worst, I think one of them could help us out and buy the family home. It would still be a very raw deal.  I don't want to bank on that option and rely on it.  They may not be able to help either.   

The whole thing is a mess.


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## Thirsty (28 Aug 2020)

It is a bit of mess, but its not of your making.  Whilst you naturally want to do what you can to help your Mam, you also need to try and not get too emotionally involved.

To try and answer your questions; this is one time when you can be glad that the mills of our judicial system can grind quite slowly.

You could well be looking at 18months - 2 years before a court date. There are those who would say that is being optimistic.

Depending on the location and value of the house, €40k isn't a huge amount of money; and that would be paid from your father's share if the house was sold.


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## Knitwood (28 Aug 2020)

My mother started on the divorce two years ago.   She has a date for a hearing now, thank goodness.  All in all, it has taken 2 years to get to court.   The hearing will be in October.  The letter said, her case may not be heard but chances are it will be.   

It's hard living with this threat of the possibility of losing the roof over our heads.  The next month is going to drag on.  I'm trying to put it to the back of my mind but nerves rise with each day that pass.

If there is an order for the sale of the family home, would there be a time frame attached to the order?


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## AAAContributor (28 Aug 2020)

It is great to hear that you are on good terms with your siblings and that they are there for you. It isn't all on you.

It's doubtful that this forum will be of much practical use to you - but I could be wrong. Where it may be useful is for you to document your own questions/thoughts and perhaps consider any contributions that posters offer up. To this end, this will be useful when you meet your mother's solicitor. Try and document your queries/thoughts before your next appointment so that the meeting will be as productive as possible. The solicitor may have been alarmist in their reference to the house sale but they may not and it is worth querying exactly on what basis this is grounded on and what, if any, are your options. 

As Thirsty mentions above, there will be ample time to prepare. Looking at situations in the press like this, it can take a long time to come to a legal resolution, especially regarding a family home, and even more especially when your father hasn't contributed to any material maintenance since the separation. 

Mind your mental health and nerves as much as you can. Your health and livelihood come first and second. The rest follow after that.


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## Thirsty (28 Aug 2020)

Knitwood said:


> has taken 2 years to get to court


So your mother is much further into this process than your original post suggested.

In that case you need to start making firm plans.





> doubtful that this forum will be of much practical use to you


Well there's a vote of confidence from a long term contributor...


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## Knitwood (28 Aug 2020)

Thirsty said:


> So your mother is much further into this process than your original post suggested.
> 
> In that case you need to start making firm plans.Well there's a vote of confidence from a long term contributor...



It does say in the original post that my mother received a letter with the divorce hearing. Maybe I should have been a little bit clearer.  The date in now getting nearer. In the letter it states its likely the judge will order the sale of the family home.


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## Knitwood (28 Aug 2020)

AAAContributor said:


> It is great to hear that you are on good terms with your siblings and that they are there for you. It isn't all on you.
> 
> It's doubtful that this forum will be of much practical use to you - but I could be wrong. Where it may be useful is for you to document your own questions/thoughts and perhaps consider any contributions that posters offer up. To this end, this will be useful when you meet your mother's solicitor. Try and document your queries/thoughts before your next appointment so that the meeting will be as productive as possible. The solicitor may have been alarmist in their reference to the house sale but they may not and it is worth querying exactly on what basis this is grounded on and what, if any, are your options.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your lovely reply.   Usually when I'm faced with a big problem, I think what is the best case scenario (in this case my mother getting the roof over our heads). Then I think what is the worst case scenario (in this case losing the family home). 
What usually comes about is something that falls in between.   Maybe something where my mother keeps the family home and pays my father a sum of money every week or something like that.


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## Thirsty (28 Aug 2020)

Knitwood said:


> Maybe something where my mother keeps the family home and pays my father a sum of money every week or something like that.


I think this is unlikely.

You really need to have a sit down with your mother and have a realistic talk about what might happen and what you can do.

It will help a great deal with the anxiety if you have a back up plan.


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## cremeegg (29 Aug 2020)

Reading this thread it is not clear where the concern about a forced sale comes from.

Is it that Revenue or your fathers other creditors may try to force a sale to cover his debts. If there is a Revenue judgement against the house it canot be sold with Revenues agreement. Revenue themselves are unlikely to force a sale.

Or is it that in the divorce proceedings the court may order a sale of the home. Again this would AFAIK require Revenue agreement. If neither side of the divorce wants the home sold, why would a court order it.

There is a letter from your mothers solicitor advising that a sale of the home may be a possible outcome. Have you asked the solicitor how that might come about, and what could be done to prevent it.


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## Clamball (30 Aug 2020)

I am not a lawyer, and you seem to be very upset that the worst case is that you will be out on the street in October.

Has your mother been very clear to the solicitor that all she wants from the divorce is her current house?   You say the solicitor says the likely outcome is that the home will have to be sold but has he explained clearly why?  Does the solicitor have any strategy to get what your mother wants?

Your father owes revenue €40K and it seems that he is proposing to sell the house to clear this debt?  Can you, your siblings and your mother take out small loans to clear this debt and pay revenue so that you can keep the house?

As to clearing out the house, it all takes time and your Mothers solicitor should ask for 2 years at least to do all of this and give you time to do it in the evenings and weekends when you are not working.

You are living rent free in a house that is not yours.  You have helped with the upkeep, but you should consider your own future.  If your sibling buys the house, pay them rent, if your mother keeps the house pay her rent.  If you have to leave you will need to pay rent somewhere else, so consider your options.


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## The Horseman (30 Aug 2020)

cremeegg said:


> Reading this thread it is not clear where the concern about a forced sale comes from.
> 
> Is it that Revenue or your fathers other creditors may try to force a sale to cover his debts. If there is a Revenue judgement against the house it canot be sold with Revenues agreement. Revenue themselves are unlikely to force a sale.
> 
> ...


Any creditor with a charge on the property can force the sale. The bal outstanding on the charges are paid chronologically. If the positive equity in the house does not fully discharge all charges it is the most recently dated charge that loses out.


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## Gordon Gekko (30 Aug 2020)

Are you sure about that?

A pal of mine’s family had issues with Revenue and they just secured a judgement mortgage against the property to be cleared when the parents (who were elderly) had passed away.


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## Thirsty (30 Aug 2020)

It's not 100% clear, but my reading is that the possible sale of the family home is on foot of the divorce proceedings.


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## The Horseman (30 Aug 2020)

Gordon Gekko said:


> Are you sure about that?
> 
> A pal of mine’s family had issues with Revenue and they just secured a judgement mortgage against the property to be cleared when the parents (who were elderly) had passed away.


Yes but any charge must be renewed every 10 yrs via the courts. Its a simple process. A charge has an interest rate associated to it. Last time I looked it was a yearly fig of 8% on the debt.

Its being a couple of years since I obtained one so the interest may have changed.


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## cremeegg (30 Aug 2020)

The Horseman said:


> Any creditor with a charge on the property can force the sale. The bal outstanding on the charges are paid chronologically. If the positive equity in the house does not fully discharge all charges it is the most recently dated charge that loses out.



AFAIK a Revenue charge takes precedence over any other. This would mean no other creditor could force a sale without Revenue agreement.

While Revenue could force a sale, my understanding is that they do not generally force the sale of family homes, and the circumstances of this case make it even more likely.


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## The Horseman (30 Aug 2020)

cremeegg said:


> AFAIK a Revenue charge takes precedence over any other. This would mean no other creditor could force a sale without Revenue agreement.
> 
> While Revenue could force a sale, my understanding is that they do not generally force the sale of family homes, and the circumstances of this case make it even more likely.


I was never involved in a case were revenue also had a charge so don't know.

I would however suspect revenue can't take preference over the banks charge. Whatever about other creditors charges. Otherwise a person could stop paying a mortgage knowing revenue would stop the bank forcing a sale.


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## Ravima (1 Sep 2020)

_I would however suspect revenue can't take preference over the banks charge. _

Only God trumps Revenue!. They rank first.


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## Knitwood (1 Sep 2020)

Sorry for not updating in a while. 

The father's bank debt is on his second house.  The house he bought when he moved out from the family home. 

The revenues judgement mortgage was applied before my mother got a notice of marriage on the property.  That was to offer some protection in the family home because revenue could have stepped in at any stage to force the sale of the home.  That stops them for now. 

I think the fathers plan that was with MABS was, the father was going to sell his second property to raise funds to cover all his debts.  
All that was stalled because the mother moved with a divorce. 

I think, my mother's solicitor believes my father might come after his share of the family home now that he's nearly homeless.  I don't know what my father's position is.


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