# - they broke the law - but i still owe



## jackruby (23 Sep 2009)

I am being hounded by my bank for a 30 K - and i don't have any funds- zero

was in the construction industry and my bank contacted the builder i was contracted to enquiring about monies he owed me

he then pulled the plug - no contract - no payment - nothing

Except the bank demands

i am considering the Jail option as a matter of precendence as no one is standing up for Joe soap


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## TheShark (23 Sep 2009)

If you feel you were wronged by your bank then you should make a complaint to the Financial Ombundsman.


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## VOR (23 Sep 2009)

Did you sign a declaration authorising the bank to contact 3rd parties?


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## mf1 (23 Sep 2009)

"i am considering the Jail option as a matter of precendence as no one is standing up for Joe soap"

What does this mean? 

You owe money. Someone else owes you money. You have a debt to the Bank. Someone else has a debt to you. Why don't  you make an attempt to recover the money owed to you? Then you could pay your debt. 

Do you think that if you owe money to someone, but you are owed money by someone else, that you don't have to pay the money you owe?

mf


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## smiley (23 Sep 2009)

Who broke the law??


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## sparkeee (23 Sep 2009)

What laws we're broken?


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## Protocol (23 Sep 2009)

"*we're*" is a contraction of *we are*


The correct word is *were*.


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## Bronte (24 Sep 2009)

jackruby said:


> i am considering the Jail option as a matter of precendence as no one is standing up for Joe soap


 
Have you an income?  I think you should face up to your obligations and try to pay back the debt that you and you alone incurred.


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## lightswitch (24 Sep 2009)

OP stated,

"I am being hounded by my bank for a 30 K - and i don't have any funds- zero

was in the construction industry"


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## jackruby (24 Sep 2009)

yes i would pay if i had the money

the bank broke the data protection act.

I had a contract of €300,000 plus if the contract were to be completed.

the worse case senario would have being that i woul have earned €70k at a minimum.

the bank called me looking for the €30k and i said that i was waiting to get poaid from the contractor and that i would aleast earn €70k within the next 9 months.

The bank rang the contractor who was trying to secure funding from several banks and took a dim view on the fact that my bank was harrassing him about the monies i owed.

Hence he won't pay me. i am bringing him to court.

the bank just want their money


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## Towger (24 Sep 2009)

To be honest it sounds as if your too soft looking for the money, you should be hounding the builder, creating a nuisance for him. If he has the money he will pay, just to make you go away. Even if he does not have enough to pay all his creditors he will pay those who cause him the most trouble

If you dont want to to it your self, there are companies who will hound him for a cut of the money.


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## jackruby (24 Sep 2009)

MF1 

the joe soap is the ordinary worker on the street.

for example the large speculators and the banks are going to assisted by NAMA while the ordinary plumber, carpenter that is owed monies by these specs and const compnies are screwed

do you understand that?


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## jackruby (24 Sep 2009)

Towger

the solicitor and barrister are saying that the probability is that it will be settled out of court.

if it goes to court i will not settle. becuase it gives me the opportunity to have the contractor explain why he did not pay me.

he will say that the work is shoody

BUT it is because of the bank


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## jackruby (24 Sep 2009)

VOR

I didn't sign anything.

At one stage the bank was trying to force me to sign a loan agreement for the amount of debt but i refused.


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## Bronte (24 Sep 2009)

Jackruby do you have any other income, if you do you should come to an arrangment with the bank to pay back the 30K. Do you own a property because if you do then the bank will be going after that and it will be at a much larger cost than 30K to you. 

You need to seperate the rights and wrongs of what the builder has done, the bank has done and the economic situation from your debt to the bank. That is the way a court of law is going to judge it.


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## Bronte (24 Sep 2009)

jackruby said:


> was in the construction industry and my bank contacted the builder i was contracted to enquiring about monies he owed me
> 
> he then pulled the plug - no contract - no payment - nothing


 
Can you clarify this. Did you have a contract with the builder or not?

Also what do you mean the bank was trying to get you to sign a loan agreement?  Did you have a loan agreement for the 30K?


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## jackruby (24 Sep 2009)

Bronte 

i would have had an income of €75,000 if i had continued the work that i had withe builder.
The fact is the builder took this potential work from me because the bank rang him.


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## jackruby (24 Sep 2009)

Verbal contract.

i had done alot of work for this guy.

Good work, reasonably priced and no problems would get paid - maybe have to wait a few weeks but would get it eventually.


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## Bronte (24 Sep 2009)

Jackruby is this correct, you told your bank that a builder owed you money and that that is why you wouldn't pay them.  They then contacted the builder to get him to pay the money to you.  He naturally got upset at this as it was false (he had no contract with you) and decided not to deal with you.  Do you think he is being unreasonable?

What did you borrow the 30K for, was it in connection with this builder?


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## jackruby (24 Sep 2009)

I don't think that it is possible for them to take my home


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## jackruby (24 Sep 2009)

no BRONTE

I owed the bank €30k
i told them that i was waiting for monies owed to me by the builder but that he was waiting for funds to clear from his bank
I told them that when i got the monies from him i woul pay them. they new the builder and had dealings with him.
THe bank then rang the builder WITHOUT my knowledge asking when he was going to pay me that he owed me €70K. 
He told them that he owed me some monies but not that amount.
HE took a dim view of the whole matter and said "screw you" i'm not paying you. "Whyis the bank ringing me about your loans"


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## Bronte (24 Sep 2009)

jackruby said:


> I don't think that it is possible for them to take my home


 
So you do have a home?  Of course it's possible for them to take your  home.  Can you clarify the full story as it's very hard to make out the circumstances.  Did you do work for the builder that is unpaid for example.


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## jackruby (24 Sep 2009)

Take my home

Wrt to the above the reason the majority of people get their homes repossed or go to jail is beacuse they do not show up in court.

i go to court tell the judge no money - would gladly pay if had - what can he do
nothing 

there was a case recently i will find and post herre for you


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## Guest116 (24 Sep 2009)

Bronte said:


> So you do have a home? Of course it's possible for them to take your home. Can you clarify the full story as it's very hard to make out the circumstances. Did you do work for the builder that is unpaid for example.


 
While it is possible it is very unlikely. They dont just show up on a friday morning and take your home away 

It is a very long protracted process and based on what I read on this thread it would be very unlikely that a judge would grant such an order.


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## jackruby (24 Sep 2009)

Aristotle.

what is you opinion on going to the Financial Ombudsman.

I have a distinct feeling that i will be trying to prove " heresay" in the courts and probably with the ombudsman


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## jackruby (24 Sep 2009)

A DISTRICT COURT judge has questioned whether it is worthwhile making instalment orders following a recent High Court ruling that it is unconstitutional to jail a person who cannot pay a debt.
At Mullingar District Court yesterday, Judge John Neilan asked if orders were “a nullity if they cannot be enforced” and was critical of banks who did not accept genuine offers of payment from debtors.
His comments come just days after Ms Justice Mary Laffoy’s landmark ruling deeming section 6 of the Enforcement of Court Orders Act 1940 unconstitutional.
If the judgment remained intact, it would have an impact on proceedings under the Family Law (Maintenance of Spouses and Children) Act. He questioned the value of entertaining civil processes if “the engine that brings about its effectiveness is being dismantled”.
Dealing with 24 applications yesterday, Judge Neilan said he would remand all committal and many enforcement matters to the end of November when it may be clear if the Laffoy decision would be appealed to the Supreme Court or if legislators would take action.
He told a married couple before the court, on foot of an enforcement order moved by ACCBank, that there was “uncertainty” about how cases like theirs would proceed. “There are steps,” he said. “You’re in the middle and the next step has been found to be unconstitutional. If the end process is unconstitutional, what’s the point of engaging in the process here?”
He added it was a judge’s obligation to act as “honest broker” between debtors and creditors.
ACCBank had written to the couple stating it was no longer prepared to wait and wished that the full outstanding amount of the debt be paid over. When the couple presented documentary evidence of their offer to make an instalment, the judge was strongly critical of the letter which the bank sent to them, describing it as “threatening”, “bully-boy” and “unacceptable to the court”.
He said one option open to them was to inform the bank that the matter was now before court and “the judge says it is within his sole discretion what happens next”.
He continued: “I am somewhat surprised in one sense and not surprised in another that the ACC have not accepted your genuine offer,” he said, adding that it was time financial institutions, whose CEOs received salaries in the millions, “come to reality”. He criticised the “arrogance of financial institutions who brought this country to its knees” and reminded them that it was the taxpayer who was now funding them. Judge Neilan indicated an appreciation for difficulties encountered by people who were in debt and had to appear before a public forum to “bare their soul.” He urged that they should not “be frightened to come before the court and set out their stall” and that the Money, Advice and Budgeting Services might be able to offer assistance.
He stressed that his comments were directed at banks and not at other creditors and that the court would address “people who have brass necks and owe money”.
The Courts Service has confirmed that following consultation with the president of the District Court, it has written to each chief district court clerk stating that no further committal warrants are to be issued under section 6.


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## Towger (24 Sep 2009)

The problem is you seem to have started down the court road. What do you think the courts are going to do? For example we took a fellow to court over 7 years ago and only got our money last month. On a 'simple' cause of unpaid invoices a no foe no fee 'debt collection agency' (even if they took 33%) would be less hassle and less expensive!


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## jackruby (24 Sep 2009)

it is with the solicitor now 12 months and i beleive that it will be in court before the end of the year


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## jackruby (24 Sep 2009)

has anyone any experience of the Financial Ombudsman


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## VOR (24 Sep 2009)

jackruby said:


> Aristotle.
> 
> what is you opinion on going to the Financial Ombudsman.
> 
> I have a distinct feeling that i will be trying to prove " heresay" in the courts and probably with the ombudsman


 
Why not make a complaint to the Data Protection Commissioner. Afterall, your personal details were discussed with a third party. If the bank made a third party aware of your banking arrangement without your consent, you surely have grounds for a complaint. 
This doesn't mean you don't own the money to the bank, but I would consider it the correct course of action with regard to unauthorised dissemination of private data. 

But there is one big question that needs to be answered. How did you not sign anything and still owe the bank €30K? 

You can make a complaint online at the link below:
[broken link removed]


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## jackruby (25 Sep 2009)

the bank cleared a cheque on the strnghth of funds being available 

but hence the cheque i got bounced and i had used funds to pay monies i owed


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## jackruby (25 Sep 2009)

They really were pushing for me to sign a loan agreement

they had me down with the Gauards aswell for Fraud.


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## jackruby (25 Sep 2009)

but i think that was to scare the **** out of me.

the gaurd said that this was the banks problem


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## mercman (25 Sep 2009)

jackruby said:


> has anyone any experience of the Financial Ombudsman



Yep, I have. If might be best if you have specific queries to PM me. But first you must request a Letter of Final Response from the Bank, before the Ombudsman will even look at it.


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## jackruby (25 Sep 2009)

the letter of final response would that be like they want there money

did you have any success with the FO


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## mercman (25 Sep 2009)

The letter of Final Response should be a direct reply to your complaint from the Financial Provider. Have a look at the Ombudsman's website.

Yep, I had some success with the FO. It really is the fastest and least expensive route in trying to sort out a Financial Problem. The only query I have the the FO is that he is being asked to adjudicate against the Financial Providers who pay annual fees to keep his office open in the first instance.


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## jackruby (25 Sep 2009)

so you would sugges that i send a query letter to the bank wrt to the break of data protection

get their respnse which will be a denial and then fill out form wrt to the course of events to the breach to the FO.

i spoke to the Fo last year and they never mentioned a letter to the bank]

it appeared that they were just going to investigae the bank and the third party via letter correspondence which i felt would be waste of time as very easy for them to deny everything?


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## mercman (25 Sep 2009)

And with respect do you actually think a Court would differ in this regard. Without having matters in writing it is very hard to prove anything. It is then a war of words which will not be won on a Volume setting. Hard Facts wins cases. Bull loses them. The Letter of Final Response should have the full facts on it from the Bank's side. On receipt of it then you will be able to determine which route you should take


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## jackruby (25 Sep 2009)

yes i agree.

i have confronted the bank on two occasions and ask them why they contacted the builder and discussed monies i owed them 

they denied on both occasions.

so my problem is that it would be all hearsay which won't stand up anywhere.

the only thing that i have is the builders foreman said when io asked why was the contract being taken from me " well the fact the bank ringin him didn't help"

but surely he can deny this also?


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## jackruby (25 Sep 2009)

the other thing is that in an earlier life iused to work for this BANK.


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## JoeB (25 Sep 2009)

well, if you cannot prove the bank called the builder then you have no case against them on that score. There are several ways you can try to get proof... but if you don't have a good relationship with either the bank or the builder then it may be impossible. So you'll have to let that slide.

You should make written notes now if you haven't done so already. Write down times and dates of calls, to whom, and what was said. Ring the bank, tell them that such and such an individual rang the buiilder on such and such a date, and informed him of your circumstances... you have to get them to confirm that... otherwise all is lost.

Also ring the builder, get him to confirm that he was contacted by the bank...

I would record all calls... this may be considered underhand but if people will say things that they won't put into writing then it is your only choice... This may not be acceptable in a court of law but it's hard to deny a recording... so it may help with an out of court settlement.

The builder hasn't broken a contract apparently, he has simply refused to provide more work.


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## jackruby (28 Sep 2009)

so i  am screwed


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## Kev (28 Sep 2009)

Do banks in Ireland have internal complains procedures, if so, ask your bank to send their complains form.  On it say that you are aware that they have  broke the data protection act by calling an outside person regarding your personal personal data,  also when the loan was taken out was there any kind of condition attached to  it, is so, look at them and see what its say.

Also, keep all record of all your telephone calls ie your itemised bill from your provider this will provide evidence that you have made the calls. 

Also complain to the Data Protection Office about this breach of Data Protection as this will give you more clout in court. 

Put everything in writing as phone calls are not taken as evidence. 

It appears that your loan was not secured on your home therefore it will be safe in that respect. You should seek advice about have the family home transferred into your wife's name to make sure that nobody can take it away from your family, which at the end of the day is the most important thing.  

Best of Luck


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