# Bank refuses to set up direct debit on foreign Eurozone account



## murphaph (15 Apr 2014)

I don't really know what my options are here. Perhaps I have none.

Ulster Bank are flatly refusing to set up a mortgage payment direct debit (SEPA DD) on a German account, stating that "we can only set up direct debits with bank details from a bank in the RoI". What the hell is the point of SEPA if banks can simply refuse to do this?

Do I have grounds for complaint to a higher authority here? I have had no trouble with my other direct debits being switched to this German account. I want to close my BoI account and this is the only remaining DD that is preventing me from doing so. I am wary of cancelling the DD and moving to standing order as I like the certainty that the correct payment will be drawn when interest rates change. Why do the have to be so awkward. AIB etc. had no problem setting up SEPA DDs on this account!


----------



## BazzaDP (15 Apr 2014)

SEPA isn't fully live until August. After that they will have to accept your Foreign details but before then they don't have to. Though I would have thought all banks would be able to handle this by now.

SEPA in Ireland does also has some extra requirements when setting up transfers from foreign accounts including needing a written mandate rather than allowing signing up over the phone or over the Internet. It could be the person you spoke to at Ulster Bank has only been informed of half of this fact and is not aware how to handle a foreign account.


----------



## murphaph (15 Apr 2014)

Hmmm, I sent them a completed SEPA mandate and they sent it back with a 1 line  "incorrect account details" explanation (even though they were correct) and included a domestic direct debit mandate (no use obviously) so I printed off the SEPA mandate, filled it in with same details and sent it in again and asked in a cover letter for more detail if there was a problem and they responded with the "only RoI accounts" line (why couldn't they have done that the first time?).

They are ALREADY taking the money each month from my BoI account via a SEPA DD (they switched in February) so there's absolutely no good reason for them not to set up a SEPA DD on a foreign account-same payment instructions, just a different BIC/IBAN.

From their own website it says "Under the SEPA Direct Debit* scheme, you the consumer have the right to:

Use your bank account to pay a Direct Debit in any SEPA country."

...so much for that!

http://www.ulsterbank.com/roi/personal/advice-tools/sepa/sepa-personal.ashx


----------



## Lightning (15 Apr 2014)

The DD aspect of SEPA is live now. 

Make a complain. Escalate this. Don't let Ulster Bank away with breaking the whole purpose to SEPA.


----------



## Bronte (16 Apr 2014)

murphaph said:


> From their own website it says "Under the SEPA Direct Debit* scheme, you the consumer have the right to:
> 
> Use your bank account to pay a Direct Debit in any SEPA country."
> 
> ...


 
Maybe the person who sent it back to you is unaware of Sepa for other countries?


----------



## DublinTexas (16 Apr 2014)

I got the "we can only set up direct debits with bank details from a bank in the RoI" line from several businesses recently when I tried to swap my DD to my German bank account.

I usually went back with a polite letter telling them they already use SEPA (as evident in my PTSB account) and that I might withdraw my business if they don't set up what I require.

It usually worked, the only two problems are AnPost TV license which wanted a bank account statement to validate the account (and that I have the funds to pay) so I went and paid the full amount instead of DD and Tesco who have set up a DD and say they deduct the money and credit it to my Tesco card but the money never comes out of my account.

Otherwise it all worked with the noted exception that for some reason DD from non irish accounts require a written mandate (with the exception of UPC funny enough).

I would complain to Ulster again, did you go into a branch to talk to a "manager"?


----------



## murphaph (16 Apr 2014)

I've been doing it all in writing (to their central mortgage operations, who should be up to speed on SEPA) to have a record of correspondence. Can I request a "final response letter" from them and go to the ombudsman if they continue to fob me off?

I find it galling that a bank of all things would be either so clueless of or resistant to the changes SEPA mean for the consumer. 

@DublinTexas: did you have any companies who flatly refused to change and wouldn't relent?


----------



## DublinTexas (16 Apr 2014)

I had one  that was not willing to do it even after complaining but the minute I called in and gave as reason for my cancellation that they would not do SEPA DD they suddenly had updated their system. Miracle.

Good Luck in getting your bank to do what you want.


----------



## Time (16 Apr 2014)

If they persist in fobbing you off you can request a final response letter. That might cause them to relent.


----------



## murphaph (16 Apr 2014)

What specific Irish law is Ulster Bank breaking here?


----------



## markpb (16 Apr 2014)

It should be somewherein here but I'm not sure.


----------



## Janet (17 Apr 2014)

I found this on the [broken link removed] (my highlighting) - I wonder if it's possible to get in touch with the EPC? There is also a document on that site outlining how SEPA was to be implemented. 


> The European Payments Council (EPC) – an alliance of European banking/payments industry representative bodies – was established in 2002 to deliver SEPA. *The EPC’s constitution gives it decision-making status on behalf of its payments industry members.*
> 
> The EPC draws its representation from the three categories of banks in Europe – commercial banks, savings banks and co-operative banks. In Ireland, only those banks active in the retail payment system are represented. These are AIB, Bank of Ireland, Permanent TSB, Ulster Bank, National Irish Bank and BNP Paribas. The EPC has a number of working and support groups, the work of which is guided by a Co-ordination Committee; in addition, the EPC Plenary meets four times each year.


----------



## BazzaDP (17 Apr 2014)

murphaph said:


> What specific Irish law is Ulster Bank breaking here?



None. Until SEPA is fully mandated from 1st August.

It could be a grand conspiracy against the OP. Or it could be just that Ulster Bank's inter a systems and processes have not been set up yet for SEPA (which is why the extension until August was given!). First issue makes a more interesting story though...


----------



## Janet (17 Apr 2014)

BazzaDP said:


> It could be a grand conspiracy against the OP.


Could be....but...


BazzaDP said:


> Or it could be just that Ulster Bank's inter a systems and processes have not been set up yet for SEPA (which is why the extension until August was given!).


As he explained in his post, they are set up for SEPA, as evidenced by the fact that other transactions are being handled that way already.


----------



## murphaph (17 Apr 2014)

Bazza could still be right. It's possible (for example) that some clown has incorrectly specified the interface for their system which the clerk uses to input the IBAN from the paper mandate. They may have a hard coded "IE" prefix on the IBAN field and possibly some validation that ensures the rest of the IBAN is is the "correct Irish length", thus preventing the bank clerk from entering what's on the mandate.

The thing is...this is a bank. Of all the companies the public could have expected to be fully SEPA ready by now, surely the banks themselves would be top of the list. 

(Btw, it's obviously not a conspiracy against me. It's most likely incompetence at some level in the bank, that's all)


----------



## murphaph (17 Apr 2014)

BazzaDP said:


> None. Until SEPA is fully mandated from 1st August.


What law will they be breaking on the 1st of August if they persist?


----------



## Sunny (17 Apr 2014)

The deadine might have been extended until the 1st of August but there is no way that Ulster Bank is not SEPA DD compliant already. The deadline was extended because companies were not ready. It sounds like Ulster Bank might need a bit of staff training. (Unless they are in the very embarassing position of advising companies on how to handle to SEPA DD's and didn't do it themselves).


----------



## BazzaDP (17 Apr 2014)

murphaph said:


> What law will they be breaking on the 1st of August if they persist?



This law: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2012:094:0022:0037:En:PDF

Basically being part of European Union will soon mean we have a single payments area and so German banks need to be treated same as Irish banks in terms of being accepted for payments (with slight changes such as enforcing paper mandates). Doesn't mean any company needs to accept DDs - just that if they do they have to accept ALL European DDs.

And btw I agree with all the other comments. Ulster Bank SHOULD be ready and the fact they are a bank and claim not to be is pretty poor. Possibly they are as to take this and it's a training issue (in which case you could argue they aren't ready). I'm just pointing out they don't have to be yet and those that claim they should raise legal or ombudsman arguments are wrong. For now.


----------



## murphaph (17 Apr 2014)

But that's not an irish law, right? 260/2012 must be transposed into national legislation in all the member states. Is S.I. No. 383 of 2009 mentioned above thread, the transposition in the case of Ireland? If so, what actual paragraph compels (or will compel) a bank to set up a SEPA DD drawn on a a foreign account?


----------



## BazzaDP (17 Apr 2014)

I'm not a legal expert and wouldn't suggest you quote paragraphs as a way of forcing Ulster Bank to allow your payment, but here's some more info you you if you really want to know:


[broken link removed]


----------



## murphaph (17 Apr 2014)

Thanks everyone. I'll try another politely worded letter first (in case it's s training issue) and see how it goes. Will update once I hear more.


----------



## murphaph (2 Jun 2014)

Good news. UB seem to have relented after another letter requesting the DD to be set up or a final response letter outlining why it cannot be set up. My German account now shows the DD due in a couple of days (that's something I don't see in banking365...the DD only shows up when it's been taken. My German bank always notifies me in advance, as I believe the SEPA rules mandate).


----------



## markpb (2 Jun 2014)

murphaph said:


> Good news. UB seem to have relented after another letter requesting the DD to be set up or a final response letter outlining why it cannot be set up. My German account now shows the DD due in a couple of days (that's something I don't see in banking365...the DD only shows up when it's been taken. My German bank always notifies me in advance, as I believe the SEPA rules mandate).



Good work  I wonder why they objected in the first place.


Btw Ulster Bank write to you when a SEPA DD is first registered with your account.


----------



## Lightning (3 Jun 2014)

Well done for persuing this. Hopefully, Ulster Bank will learn lessons from this that will help others.


----------



## murphaph (3 Jun 2014)

Thanks folks. I assume it was a training issue and that it was never against bank policy.


----------



## Lightning (3 Jun 2014)

By coincidence, I was speaking to someone else today who is having problems with SEPA direct debits and Ulster Bank. The person was trying to set up direct debits with Danish utility companies via her Ulster Bank account. 

The person said that some worked and some could not be set up by Ulster Bank. 

It seems that UB are having some SEPA DD issues. I wonder if it is down to UB systems or just staff training.


----------



## murphaph (4 Jun 2014)

That would be the other way around though, right? UB current account rather than UB being the DD originator (as in my case). It could be that the originator(s) in Denmark are the problem there.

Denmark is in SEPA but SEPA only applies to Euro denominated payments AFAIK. The payments to the utilities will obviously be in Danish Kroners. That might be a problem in itself?


----------



## Palerider (4 Jun 2014)

It is a training issue, you have to feel sorry for retail staff in Ulster Bank, the stuff that should cascade down isn't getting through where the often meaningless stuff that does not benefit customers and should be filtered out does, pity it is not a conspiracy theory...


----------



## Time (4 Jun 2014)

murphaph said:


> That would be the other way around though, right? UB current account rather than UB being the DD originator (as in my case). It could be that the originator(s) in Denmark are the problem there.
> 
> Denmark is in SEPA but SEPA only applies to Euro denominated payments AFAIK. The payments to the utilities will obviously be in Danish Kroners. That might be a problem in itself?



It shouldn't be as the Irish bank would simply apply the days exchange rate to the Kroner amount.


----------



## Brussels (9 Jun 2014)

Regulation 260/2012 Article 9.2 makes it perfectly clear that payee's (in this case Ulster Bank) cannot dictate the member state in which a payment account must be located. Go back to them and quote this regulation.


----------



## Brussels (9 Jun 2014)

murphaph said:


> Good news. UB seem to have relented after another letter requesting the DD to be set up or a final response letter outlining why it cannot be set up. My German account now shows the DD due in a couple of days (that's something I don't see in banking365...the DD only shows up when it's been taken. My German bank always notifies me in advance, as I believe the SEPA rules mandate).



The SEPA rules don't mandate that your bank notifies you in advance. The Creditor, the company debiting your account, must advise you


----------



## murphaph (9 Jun 2014)

Brussels said:


> The SEPA rules don't mandate that your bank notifies you in advance. The Creditor, the company debiting your account, must advise you


Ok, interesting. I presume UB use the same payment file for a DD being drawn from a mortgage holder's Irish account as for a mortgage holder's German account (that is after all part of the point of SEPA, that the same payment files are used in the whole zone)...but I never saw advance notice of the DD in BoI's 365 portal...but I do see it in my German bank's portal.


----------



## Brussels (9 Jun 2014)

murphaph said:


> Ok, interesting. I presume UB use the same payment file for a DD being drawn from a mortgage holder's Irish account as for a mortgage holder's German account (that is after all part of the point of SEPA, that the same payment files are used in the whole zone)...but I never saw advance notice of the DD in BoI's 365 portal...but I do see it in my German bank's portal.



Under the SEPA Schemes direct debits must be in the debtor bank 5 days before the debit is due for debiting. Your German bank obviously use this time to advice of the pending debit.


----------



## murphaph (9 Jun 2014)

Do any of the Irish banks do this?


----------



## Time (9 Jun 2014)

Ulster send you an advice for the very first DD from a new originator. After that nothing.


----------



## Brussels (10 Jun 2014)

murphaph said:


> Do any of the Irish banks do this?



I would say not. Prior to SEPA direct debits only arrived in the debtor bank on the day before they were due to be debited, SEPA changed this to 5 days but its now proposed to revert back to one day over the next year or two.


----------

