# Definition of "on or about"



## osullivant (1 Mar 2012)

I understand that the phrase " on or about " means on a certain date, or a very near that particular date.

Can anyone point me to a judicial/statuary  interpretation of the phrase. 

for example UCP600 says  

The expression "on or about" will be interpreted as a stipulation that an event is to occur during a period of five calendar days before until five calendar days after the specified date, both start and end dates included.

In Irish law how long is the period??


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## One (16 Mar 2012)

I am confused by the reference to UCP600. Can you provide a link to it, or to some act where you see this phrase?


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## Gulliver (16 Mar 2012)

Fairly certain it is not defined in legislation in Ireland or in any other country.  It is defined in many dictionaries, including law dictionaries without a specification of time. The expression "On or about" can also be used as referring to location as in "on or about a person"


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## osullivant (18 Mar 2012)

"Uniform Customs and Practice for Documentary Credits."  (I never heard of it  either but it is precisely this type of judicial interpretation/definition  I was after.)

Situation is a summons for an offence... to wit "failing  without  reasonable excuse to submit return on or about 31. Dec 2010. . Previously excused up til 31 Dec 2010. So only period without excuse is the length of "on or about"  

Sorry cannot post link, as not enough posts yet.

Google, alibaba UCP 600, whole thing  is set out, just scroll down.


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## One (20 Mar 2012)

I have looked at this. I am not a solicitor. I think the only relevance this has in Irish law is where this this clause is inserted into a legally binding document and the definition of "on or about" is made clear. When I say a legally binding document I mean a contract, an insurance agreement, a loan agreement from a bank. I stand to be corrected.

"The ICC rules of practice are designed by bankers and merchants and not by legislatures with political and local considerations. The rules accordingly demonstrate the needs, customs and practices of business. Because the rules are incorporated voluntarily into contracts, the rules are flexible while providing a stable base for international review, including judicial scrutiny".

The UPC 600 seems not to be a law itself, but is a guideline that can aid clarity and structure when drawing up legally binding agreements for financial instruments, such as letters of credit.


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## csirl (20 Mar 2012)

In court, it depends on the context. It is also usually used in circumstances where the exact date may not be important, all that is relevant is that some agreement was made around that time or some incident happened around that time.

My impression is that the longer you go back in time, the wider the date windows are. The expression is very often used in criminal cases in court, particularly for incidents which happened a long time ago.

e.g. in child abuse cases, the charge read in court could be something along the lines of "Mr. X did Y on or about the year 1976" - which could have been any time from late 1975 to early 1977. For something more recent it could be that "Mr. X did Y on or about early July 2002". For something very recent it could be that "Mr. X did something on or about 1st July 2011"


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## osullivant (20 Mar 2012)

Thanks for the contributions but please read my original post.

I know what it means.!, in plain english.

I know that ucp 600 is not law as such.

What I am hoping for is a Judicial, or statuary defining of the length of the period.


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## Gulliver (20 Mar 2012)

I think you shoud read the responses which are fairly clear:-

"Fairly certain it is not defined in legislation in Ireland or in any other country."  This covers your statuary(sic!) defining 
"In court, it depends on the context."  This covers your judicial point


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## Bronte (21 Mar 2012)

osullivant said:


> Thanks for the contributions but please read my original post.
> 
> .


 
It would be much more helpful if you didn't pull bits of legalese out of documents and ask for help. Instead whatever court summons you have, or whatever it is, if you can outline that you might get a better answer for a defense. And if you're planning on defending yourself, that's not a good idea.

Just rereading, is it revenue is pursuing you for not submitting a tax return?


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## osullivant (21 Mar 2012)

Thanks for all the efforts.

If I find the answer elsewhere I will post it.


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