# EBS Trackers and Central Bank Review



## JL77 (18 Oct 2017)

Hello 

Has anyone had any success with EBS and having their tracker reinstated? It is very difficult to find any clear information on this.

My case

I had a tracker 

I fixed (2006) understanding that I would return to tracker (no warning - fixed rate conversion form stated I would return to the 'applicable variable' which I understood to be the variable rate in my contract - ECB +1.25%) 
I was put on a variable rate after the fixed term ended. 
Looking for any similar cases with outcome from CB review?


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## Brendan Burgess (18 Oct 2017)

How many years did you fix for? 

When you came off the fixed rate and went onto the SVR instead of the tracker you expected, what did you do? 

Brendan


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## Truffade (20 Oct 2017)

Your experience exactly mirrors mine. I fixed for 5 years in 2006.

I queried to EBS had my mortgage been included in the review and they said no. Wording in their view is clear - once you switch off a tracker, you have no right to ever get it back.


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## Aidan.obrien (21 Oct 2017)

EBS are quoting the tracker application form which directly contradicts the original loan agreement form which states that the tracker rate is for the life of the loan. 
EBS are concentrating on the tracker form because it suits their argument but surely the original loan agreement is the legally binding mortgage document?
Or am I wrong?


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## EbsLoannotrafor (21 Oct 2017)

Hi I am in exactly the same position hence the name of posting . I argued with ebs that the loan application form preceded the loan agreement  and in my case was not referred to or included as part of the loan agreement documents , so is irrelevant and I agreed the loan on the terms in the loan agreement . However I am not restored or deemed impacted by ebs . I also highlighted to ebs that their chief executive mr . Byrne when in front of the finance committee in the recent  weeks ( see clip minute 44 to 45 of his performance ) , stated those who had tracker in their loan agreement had been returned to tracker rate , I asked Ebs local branch mortgage master  to inform him and his communications office that what he said was incorrect and that this should be clarified to me and in general for  public transparency and indeed to mr.byrne himself . .. no word back on that . 
Lastly , surely as part of European harmonisation , this scandal should be brought to Europe commission for review in terms of banking practice and licensing of banks ... are there no Eu standards ? And surely these have been breached . I think a case brought there might have effect if feasible , does anyone know ? I am Irish but I am an Eu citizen , surely this is the path to go now  !


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## dejected (21 Oct 2017)

Same situation with EBS. Tracker Mortgage taken out in March 2005 ECB +1.25. Fixed for 3 years in Dec 2006. Fixed form was ambiguous and confusing. EBS moved us on to SVR at end of fixed period. We switched to AIB early 2010 as we were unable to get our tracker back. EBS deemed  us not impacted in their review. I lodged a complaint with the central bank ombudsman early this year and was given the option to place the complaint on hold pending the outcome of the central bank review. Last correspondence with ombudsman was April this year....


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## JL77 (22 Oct 2017)

Thanks everyone - It appears we are all in the same boat. 

It seems that the following points are common to EBS customers involved in this. 
- The loan application form is being used as a reason for not dealing with our cases. 
- The wording on the fixed rate conversion form is vague and ambiguous.

The questions that need to be clarified:
- From a legal point of view - does the mortgage contract we all signed supersede the loan application form? 
- The language on the fixed rate form - how is it being looked at now by the Central Bank?


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## Truffade (23 Oct 2017)

EBS is the one institution that never gets mentioned in the context of the review. Perhaps because they got subsumed into AIB?

Has Paraic Kissane taken a look at EBS?


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## Truffade (23 Oct 2017)

If you and anyone else in a similar situation want to get together and discuss a joint approach, I'd be very happy to get involved.


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## Aidan.obrien (23 Oct 2017)

I would be happy to be involved in a joint approach too. I know from another thread an EBS customer has gone to Padraig Kissane and I have just given his office the documents pertaining to my case. So maybe that would be the best way to go? 
In my opinion We need the mortgage contract issue as detailed above by JL77 clarified ASAP.


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## EbsLoannotrafor (23 Oct 2017)

Hi ,
I have already gone to Padraic so he will be aware , he is inspirational in going against the tide early on in this scandal . 
The final letter I got from  ebs when I queried this years ago  , was unbelievable in referring to prevailing variable rate , while the loan agreement has variable ecb plus 1.1 percent and refers to tracker as prevailing rate , yet they ignore this !!! To suit themselves . 
I am very annoyed still at Mr byrne ebs CEO performance at finance committee when he said anyone with tracker rate in their mortgage agreement contract is being returned to it . See it at oireachtas finance committee minute 44 to 45. This is wrong and he needs to correct the inacurracy and apologise .


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## JL77 (23 Oct 2017)

I am hoping to talk to Paraic Kissane this week to see if he has any information related to EBS. There must be a reason behind the silence in relation to their dealings with the tracker review.


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## Aidan.obrien (23 Oct 2017)

I contacted my 4 local tds today and told them exactly my experience with EBS taking my tracker. 
Catherine Murphy's office rang me back and told me they have been contacted by a number of EBS customers and will be writing to the central bank to ensure our cases arelooked at again.
I am meeting with Bernard Duran to discuss it further and Frank O Rourke has also said he will follow it up.
I would suggest all affected EBS customers write to their TDs this pressure needs to be kept up.


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## Truffade (24 Oct 2017)

Letters from TDs are useless. I'd have far more faith in Paraic Kissane.


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## MsBinky (24 Oct 2017)

JL77, EBS are now under the AIB umbrella. When you hear of news from AIB in the media, it refers to both lenders. They very ahead with their review,  many having been redressed already. I would say that if you feel that you should be included,  it'll be up to you to push for a decision.


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## Aidan.obrien (24 Oct 2017)

JL77 , 
Regarding the tracker application form my EBS fixed rate application form from 2007 states:

*"This document forms part of the existing documentation governing the loan the conditions of which are outlined in the mortgage deed, the loan offer and cheque issue letter"
*
Note the tracker application form is not listed as part of the documentation governing the conditions of the loan. So the tracker application form's conditions have no relevance to the loan or our case.
Thats just to my layman's eye. Am I wrong!?


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## EbsLoannotrafor (24 Oct 2017)

That has been my case , why are we not being redresssed ? I have asked my local branch to get an answer and explain this to me .


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## JL77 (24 Oct 2017)

@MsBinky this is the pertinent question who is dealing with this EBS or AIB. It sounds from the comments here and in other places on the forum that there is huge confusion. From my reading the wording on both AIB fixed rate conversion forms and contracts were very similar to those of EBS The question surrounding language 'applicable variable' v 'standard variable' is of huge importance, the question of contract wordings 'lifetime of loan' is also key.

Bottom line is when does a contact cease being a contract - the fixed rate conversion forms didn't say that we would loose our trackers. In an AIB thread @Brendan Burgess has commented on language used in relation to AIB queries, these match our EBS queries. Surely forms needed to explicitly say what the consequences are for a loan & the contract related to a loan.

@Aidan.obrien this is something I am trying to find out.

@Brendan Burgess do you know of any EBS customer that has been successful?


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## pguyo (25 Oct 2017)

My wife took out a fixed mortgage 3 years with ebs in 2008 but was not given an option on contract dated 2008 to go onto the tracker rate at end of fixed. Should that option not have been on her contract as it was available in 2008


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## TerryF (25 Oct 2017)

I took out mortgage in 2007 ebs . fixed and no tracker option even though they had them till 2008. Are we included


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## Truffade (26 Oct 2017)

TerryF said:


> I took out mortgage in 2007 ebs . fixed and no tracker option even though they had them till 2008. Are we included



Hard to see how you would be.

You never had a tracker. You actively chose a Fixed Rate mortgage.

Hard to argue from the above that you should be included.


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## joe351980 (26 Oct 2017)

I'd check my contract.
 Most people took out a mortgage, either SVR or Tracker, and fixed for a period. 
The mortgage itself would not be fixed for the lifetime.


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## TerryF (26 Oct 2017)

I know it's a difficult one. But they said we could not get one. That should not have been the case.


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## moon499 (26 Oct 2017)

Very same situation with me. Took out loan in 2007 with EBS. Clearly states tracker rate ("variable ECB Base + 1.25%") on signed letter of offer. Mortgage was initially fixed at 4.99%. We had sought tracker rate and was recommended formally in the broker recommendation to us. We have evidence of this. Mortgage reverted to variable at the expiry of the initial fixed rate when we fixed again for an additional 2 years. Should we not have been given the option of returning to the original tracker (ECB + 1.25%) after the expiry of the original fixed period? Do you think we should be in the scope of the Tracker Review Examination? First things first is we will request a full data access request.


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## BurtReynolds (26 Oct 2017)

Yeah I’m in the same boat as several here. Seems EBS are not really engaging or am I missing something? I never hear them mentioned in media reports. 

Sorry for the rookie question folks, but I don’t have my original mortgage docs so i need to request from EBS. Is it the contract I should ask for, or the loan offer, or both??


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## EbsLoannotrafor (26 Oct 2017)

They are well aware of it as I have complained over 2 years ago in simliar situation , I had a tracker mortgage and am entitled to it back as their CEO mr Byrne said at the finance committee but he was  incorrect and misleading what he said as we have not been redressed .  Note  they were extremely slow to give documents although that may improve now , they are hoping people will get tired of constantly chasing them , they will quote the application form and ignore the loan offer and loan agreement . We complained to ombudsman and central bank and have been told on hold till the review complete ( which is not reaching its deadlines since it started) , I suggested it is brought to Europe and I see this has now occurred . Even recently we requested a meeting with our branch and ask for in writing an explanation what was different between those redressed and us , we were told we would have a letter within a week that was ...2 weeks ago , these people have no sense of shame or professionalism . So realise what to expect but don't give up !


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## Truffade (27 Oct 2017)

BurtReynolds said:


> Yeah I’m in the same boat as several here. Seems EBS are not really engaging or am I missing something? I never hear them mentioned in media reports.
> 
> Sorry for the rookie question folks, but I don’t have my original mortgage docs so i need to request from EBS. Is it the contract I should ask for, or the loan offer, or both??



Ask for everything, including the form when you switched off your tracker


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## Bikini Widow (27 Oct 2017)

Hi All,

I am in similar position and handed my case over to Padraic Kissane to manage.  I would greatly recommend strength in numbers and the more of us that Padraic can demonstrate to EBS and CB the better the overall case.

Best wishes,
BW


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## EbsLoannotrafor (2 Nov 2017)

I think for most of us , we had written on the loan contract agreement ," tracker for the life of the loan" , but yet after fixing where not given the option of returning to this , I note reading the threads there are a lot of people who seem to be with UB and AIB and have been returned to their tracker in simliar circumstances -why not EBS customers .? For us we are considering switching as other banks are offering LTV and percentage bonus , we feel stuck  until this is sorted , and EBS aren't offering LTV incentive rates which I think is very strange , as if we are penalised for haveinv paid the mortgage and working it down but yet not sorting out this issue so leaving people like us stuck , hardly customer friendly . Very frustrating .


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## Truffade (5 Nov 2017)

For those who had the same experience as me, which was:

Was on a tracker rate (ECB + 1.05%)
Went from tracker to fixed (2006)
Went onto SVR with no option to switch to tracker when fixed rate term expired (2011)
My fixed rate conversion form stated (this is the exact wording):
_I/We wish to convert the balance of my/our loan account to a fixed rate for next 5 years

I/We understand that when this period has expired the loan will revert to the *applicable variable rate* then prevailing._

The highlighted seems to be key. It's vague, possibly deliberately so.

Has anyone in a similar situation got any advice from Padraig Kissane or similar?


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## Brendan Burgess (5 Nov 2017)

In 2006, EBS and all the other lenders were handing out tracker mortgages, so there wasn't any reason for them to intentionally take you off your tracker.  They did not appreciate the value of trackers, so it would have been difficult for them to warn you that you would lose your tracker. 

This is the sort of issue which will only be determined by the High Court unless the Central Bank convinces AIB to put those affected on trackers. 

EBS would argue that "the applicable variable rate" was clearly not intended to refer to a tracker. 

You would argue that a tracker is a type of variable rate. 

Brendan


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## Truffade (5 Nov 2017)

Brendan Burgess said:


> In 2006, EBS and all the other lenders were handing out tracker mortgages, so there wasn't any reason for them to intentionally take you off your tracker.  They did not appreciate the value of trackers, so it would have been difficult for them to warn you that you would lose your tracker.
> 
> This is the sort of issue which will only be determined by the High Court unless the Central Bank convinces AIB to put those affected on trackers.
> 
> ...



I'm inclined to agree with you. It all comes down to interpretation. Either could be deemed correct.

And I'm not going to take a High Court case, I don't have the resources to fund it.

The one thing in favour of borrowers like me is probably the current moral suasion being engaged in. Let's see how that goes. If EBS roll over and include mortgages like mine in the review, then great.


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## EbsLoannotrafor (5 Nov 2017)

The loan agreement says "tracker mortgage for the life of the loan ", that is black and white . The bank interpreted it to suit itself , I prefer to deal in facts not moral suasion, which could be interpreted as a means of weakening the argument . Everyone including the banks in particular know , that those who were affected by not having the tracker rate in their loan agreement is not in a position to take them to the high court , hence the role of the central bank or better still Europe . It might be better decided in Europe and the whole sorry mess uncovered for all to see and hopefully then German banks would be allowed into the market here as they fortunately only deal in black and white .


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## Nationaldude (8 Nov 2017)

We took out our mortgage €319k '07, tracker 5.05 + 1.05%, no fixed term (never went fixed rate at all) the ECB interest rate reductions were applied to our mortgage as they dropped, albeit a month or two later but we got them all the same. We're now on 1.1% tracker as far as I know, we had no communication from EBS at all about the review so I emailed them about 2 weeks ago asking if our mortgage was being reviewed and a few days later got our first correspondence by post saying we were included in the review. To be honest I don't know what to expect if anything at all out of all this!


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## Wardy7 (8 Nov 2017)

Sounds like you're fine. You have a correct rate. I'd say you're just included in the review because all Tracker mortgages are.


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## EbsLoannotrafor (10 Nov 2017)

This is so true , is it that Aib don't want to take it on even though it is under their governance ?
We asked for a face to face meeting as we have a significant mortgage with someone who can actually answer our questions , they offered someone will ring you ... but we have what is equivalent to a small business mortage , I doubt we would be treated like this if a small business . The culture in ebs is really appalling towards the customer .
Agreed Boi encouraging but will this all depend on who the CEO is?


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## Bikini Widow (10 Nov 2017)

As AIB/EBS has large government shareholding I would hope there is significant pressure being applied due to this..  Also if any of the BOI newly identified BOI cohorts match AIB/EBS ones not yet identified surely this will give additional leverage.


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## EbsLoannotrafor (18 Dec 2017)

We got a letter from ombudsman today , indicating central bank are reviewing and our compliant is on hold, but there was considerable  detail in it and was the first time , I felt something serious is being done and we are definitely being considered by central bank. Initially reading it I thought it was from central bank !   As it referred to the Cb work ! It didn't feel like a random letter but certainly said they would then review the compliant if still active after the cb e animation . I will sign off as going to enjoy the Christmas and all it stands for !! Merry Christmas and great new year !


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