# Innocent person shot dead in Limerick



## The_Banker (10 Nov 2008)

I can’t believe that there was another innocent victim of the feud in Limerick at the weekend.
In this day and age, that an innocent member of the public can have 15 bullets fired at him, resulting in his death simply defies logic.

If the army has to go on the street to put manners on the scum who committed this act then so be it. Enough is enough.


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## MandaC (10 Nov 2008)

Terrible thing to happen and my prayers are with that family.

I agree it is time for the law to regain control in that part of the country.


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## DavyJones (10 Nov 2008)

The_Banker said:


> I can’t believe that there was another innocent victim of the feud in Limerick at the weekend.
> In this day and age, that an innocent member of the public can have 15 bullets fired at him, resulting in his death simply defies logic.
> 
> If the army has to go on the street to put manners on the scum who committed this act then so be it. Enough is enough.




It was a very sad thing that happened and the whole country mourns for the life that was taken.

Would strongly disagree with the army answer, Its a silly suggestion that would bring upheavel to the law abbiding citizens of Limerick city. Armies policing our countries streets has proven explosive in the past.

Every man and his dog knows who are in the gangs, why can't police just pick them up and deal with them? A change to the law is what is needed not road blocks and barracks.


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## z104 (10 Nov 2008)

MandaC said:


> Terrible thing to happen and my prayers are with that family.
> 
> I agree it is time for the law to regain control in that part of the country.


 

In all parts of the country.

On another note, I believe that anybody who buys drugs( grow your own by all means) but anybody that buys drugs gives these scumbags an incentive to protect their income. The people that buy drugs pay their wages.

no income, no incentive


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## paddyjnr (11 Nov 2008)

Niallers said:


> In all parts of the country.
> 
> On another note, I believe that anybody who buys drugs( grow your own by all means) but anybody that buys drugs gives these scumbags an incentive to protect their income. The people that buy drugs pay their wages.
> 
> no income, no incentive


 I totally agree with you and we all know the people that rant and rave about the "scumbags" who are destroying their city but will happily go out on a weekend and buy their illegal substances.


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## MrMan (11 Nov 2008)

MandaC said:


> Terrible thing to happen and my prayers are with that family.
> 
> I agree it is time for the law to regain control in that part of the country.



Its a terrible tragedy but I had only been saying recently that things had been so quiet in Limerick for a long time now and things seem to have escalated in Dublin. Why is the army and such a response suitable for Limerick but the continous run of gangland murders in Dublin doesn't receive the same comment?


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## MrMan (11 Nov 2008)

> Strongly agree that personal responsibility comes into this - I think an appeal should go out to everyone living in Limerick (as I do) and who doesnt consider themselves part of the problem to give up drugs or accept that you are causing bloodshed



The Limerick gangs aswell as the Dublin, Cork wherever gangs also operate outside of their territory so their dealings are not confined to any one area. I do of course agree with any action that ends gang warfare and the impact gangs have on innocent people but I don't honestly see that give up the drugs appeal being effective in any way. In your heart you know its the right thing to do but you also know that not enough people accept responsibility or even care what their actions lead to and of course many people who take drugs will say legalise them and that will take out the gangs. 
i would be more in favour of making gang membership illegal ( if it is not already) and have a system like with IRA membership whereby members can be jailed simply for being affiliated with gangs. Further down the line the jail system needs to be addressed and gang members should be kept apart and have their contact with visitors revoked to remove their influence from inside prison. The punishment too often does not fit the crime and I think that the time has come for a real sea change in how we deal with gang/drug crime.


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## tyrekicker (11 Nov 2008)

To complement increased powers for the gardai, something needs to be done to break the cycle of crime and violence for the children of these gang members. We're seeing the 2nd/3rd generation of these gangsters come through and prove themselves even more ruthless and indiscriminate in their violence. Breaking this chain will prove very challenging, but is the only long term solution,.


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## starlite68 (11 Nov 2008)

people who take drugs are never going to give them up of their own accord...drugs are here to stay..if anything drug use among younger people is going to increse, while there is a demand there will always be suppliers...such is life. even countries that have the death penelty for drug dealers still cant get on top of the problem....so what hope have we?
better to just accept it as part of modern day life,or better still...just legealise the stuff,that way you have a chance of getting the dealers off the streets!


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## Betsy Og (11 Nov 2008)

we cant manage alcohol, how would be if more were high on greater quantities of hard drugs?

If legal people would still need to pay for their fix, it would probably be highly taxed - you'd still get syringe hold ups by crazed lunatics looking for cash for their fix.


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## starlite68 (11 Nov 2008)

Betsy Og said:


> If legal people would still need to pay for their fix, it would probably be highly taxed - you'd still get syringe hold ups by crazed lunatics looking for cash for their fix.


 if legal..they would only cost a fraction of the price.,plus the money would not be lining the pockets of gangsters!


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## MrMan (11 Nov 2008)

starlite68 said:


> if legal..they would only cost a fraction of the price.,plus the money would not be lining the pockets of gangsters!



drugs are cheap anyway and if legalised I think it would be irresponsible to make them cheap, they would I think be taxed heavily like cigarettes, not that its ever going to happen anyway.


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## diarmuidc (12 Nov 2008)

Betsy Og said:


> we cant manage alcohol,


Well some of us can't manage alcohol, that doesn't mean the rest of us responsible adults should be made pay for the other idiots.


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## Betsy Og (12 Nov 2008)

diarmuidc said:


> Well some of us can't manage alcohol, that doesn't mean the rest of us responsible adults should be made pay for the other idiots.


 
Yes, my point was that, as a society, we dont seem to be very good at it. So why would we want to proliferate the use of other drugs. At least there is a safe and social level of drinking that is no harm at all so, I agree, the responsible shouldnt be made pay for that. However I dont think the scope is there for "responsible drug taking" even if they were legal.

Anyway, the more substantive/pressing issue at this point is tackling the criminals and I was heartened to hear Factna Murphy talk about guards being "in the faces of the criminals", imminent legislation re surveillance evidence etc. It seems that poloticians and law makers./enforcers are at last saying that enough is enough, time to take the gloves off.


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## ubiquitous (12 Nov 2008)

starlite68 said:


> if legal..they would only cost a fraction of the price.,plus the money would not be lining the pockets of gangsters!



Do you include crack cocaine in your list of drugs that you would legalise?


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## demoivre (12 Nov 2008)

The bottom line for me is that court sentences are a joke. Substantially increase sentences with life meaning life with no release, no early release for good behaviour ( increase the sentence for bad behaviour ) and abolish concurrent sentences. Two other completely innocent victims of so called gangland style crime would be alive today if we had proper sentencing. Martin Hyland was given a 13 year sentence in 1998 for heroin dealing so he should still be in jail. He was released in 2004 with less than half his sentence served. In Dec 06 he was shot dead along with the totally innocent plumber Anthony Campbell who was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Shame on the system for releasing Hyland early.
The suspected killer of Donna Cleary, Dwayne Foster, had racked up 28 criminal convictions by the time of his death at 24 - what sort of joke sentences did he get over the years to let him back on the streets at all ? It's a farce and much as I regret to see another innocent victim in Limerick, Shane Geoghegan's death will also be in vain imo.


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## z104 (12 Nov 2008)

3 convictions rule should be implemented. No 50% rebate reward for good behaviour, increased sentence for bad behaviour.

Build more prisons.

The cynic in me says the courts have no incentive to give long sentences. They would be out of pocket if the revolving door was shut.

Can you imagine if every criminal was locked up for their full sentence.. There would be tumble weeds floating accross the court room after a year.


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## The_Banker (12 Nov 2008)

demoivre said:


> The bottom line for me is that court sentences are a joke. Substantially increase sentences with life meaning life with no release, no early release for good behaviour ( increase the sentence for bad behaviour ) and abolish concurrent sentences. Two other completely innocent victims of so called gangland style crime would be alive today if we had proper sentencing. Martin Hyland was given a 13 year sentence in 1998 for heroin dealing so he should still be in jail. He was released in 2004 with less than half his sentence served. In Dec 06 he was shot dead along with the totally innocent plumber Anthony Campbell who was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Shame on the system for releasing Hyland early.
> The suspected killer of Donna Cleary, Dwayne Foster, had racked up 28 criminal convictions by the time of his death at 24 - what sort of joke sentences did he get over the years to let him back on the streets at all ? It's a farce and much as I regret to see another innocent victim in Limerick, Shane Geoghegan's death will also be in vain imo.


 

Good post. This sums up why we are in the situation we are in. What is a year or two to a criminal? A few years here and there inside is a way of life to him. He knows if he gets 5 years he will be out in 2.
The laws are there. The sentences are there. All the criminal justice system needs to do is carry out these sentences in full. 
5 years must mean 5 years. Life must mean life.


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## QED (12 Nov 2008)

Is there any way to have these gangs (in Limerick and Dublin) classified as Terrorist Organisations?

This would give the Guards, Army, Judges etc. incredible power to stop them. (with a system of checks and balances etc.)


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## Conan (12 Nov 2008)

We keep hearing that the police know who the criminals are but that due to lack of hard evidence they cannot prosecute. 
How about internment of those who are known to be involved in the McCarthy/Dundon and Keane /Collopy gangs. 

If the criminals wont play by the rules, why should the State?

We are now surely at a stage where some "outside the box" solutions are required. I know the usual "bleeding heart liberals" will object, but give us an alterenative that works. Otherwise more innocent people will be killed and the gangs will continue their campaign of terror.


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## Sunny (12 Nov 2008)

The interesting thing about life sentances for murder is that only way they can get out is if the Minister of Justice, Equality and Law Reform allows it after taking advice from the parole board.

There is no automatic reduction in sentance for good behaviour for someone who is serving a life sentance. The only requirement is that the prsioner is allowed a parole hearing after a certain amount of years.

Maybe our Minsister needs to stand up and declare that from now on, anyone convicted of a gangland killing is getting life and will serve life (or at least a significant amount of it). Won't solve the problem but at least it is a statement of intent.


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## starlite68 (12 Nov 2008)

Conan said:


> How about internment of those who are known to be involved .


 that was tried in northern ireland in the early seventies.....big big mistake.


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## ubiquitous (12 Nov 2008)

starlite68 said:


> that was tried in northern ireland in the early seventies.....big big mistake.



There is a big difference. A large minority of the population of Northern Ireland in the 1970s (and later) had various degrees of sympathy with and support for the terrorists. This meant that internment increased public support for the terrorists, and motivated hordes of sympathetic youths to join them.

In contrast, there is very little public support for the gangsters and no real prospect of large numbers of disaffected youths joining their ranks as a protest against society.


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## diarmuidc (12 Nov 2008)

Niallers said:


> Build more prisons.


You might want to find out the success rate of this policy in other countries before trying it here.
Prison populations per 100,000
US crime relative to International figures


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## diarmuidc (12 Nov 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> There is a big difference. A large minority of the population of Northern Ireland in the 1970s (and later) had various degrees of sympathy with and support for the terrorists. This meant that internment increased public support for the terrorists, and motivated hordes of sympathetic youths to join them.
> 
> In contrast, there is very little public support for the gangsters and no real prospect of large numbers of disaffected youths joining their ranks as a protest against society.


Well if you are supporting it, could you show some previous cases where internment was used successfully?


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## ubiquitous (12 Nov 2008)

diarmuidc said:


> Well if you are supporting it, could you show some previous cases where internment was used successfully?



Who said I supported anything? I just countered what I saw was a mistaken comparison between 1970s NI & 2008 gangland. Although I'm far too young to know definitively, I understand that the Irish government used internment quite successfully to counter the IRA campaigns of the late 50s, early 60s, as did De Valera's government against the IRA during WWII (but don't bite my head off if I'm mistaken in this).


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## starlite68 (12 Nov 2008)

maybe when bush leaves office, we can have him over as a guest speaker to tell us how successfull" guantama bay"has worked for him....


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## Betsy Og (12 Nov 2008)

the problem with internment in the North and Guantanmo is that poor intelligence was used in a general "round up" of anyone remotely suspected to be a threat. In the North at least, dunno about Guantanamo, large numbers of innocents, predominantly from one community if I'm not mistaken, were rounded up so obviously their community reacted. I'd echo that statement about internment in the 50's having worked - because it was a marginalised group, no public support.

In the Limerick scenario if 30 of the worst could be lifted I suspect that would be enough for the moment, so we're not talking about hundreds. If the guards are doing as much surveillance and know as much as they let on they do (but cant act on due to the law) then few if any innocents would be picked up.  

Far from a public backlash there would be rejoicing (privately) amongst those "imprisoned" in their own estates - like the Southhill residents who said "please help us" in a letter last year because they were afraid of attending a public meeting.

Now interment wont ultimately solve the problem but perhaps it would give enough time for law and order to get a foothold, and the next time they get a chance to bring one of them to court to lock them up permanently then that they should do. It is wholly unfair on large numbers of decent people to live lives in fear because we pussyfoot around the sensitivities and civil liberties of unrepentent scumbags - is it only criminals that have rights in this country?


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## diarmuidc (12 Nov 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> Who said I supported anything?


Ok, my mistake.


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## diarmuidc (12 Nov 2008)

Betsy Og said:


> In the Limerick scenario if 30 of the worst could be lifted I suspect that would be enough for the moment, so we're not talking about hundreds. If the guards are doing as much surveillance and know as much as they let on they do (but cant act on due to the law) then few if any innocents would be picked up.


Sounds great in theory, but if it works so well why not bring it in nationwide (and full time) ?


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## z104 (12 Nov 2008)

diarmuidc said:


> You might want to find out the success rate of this policy in other countries before trying it here.
> Prison populations per 100,000
> US crime relative to International figures


 

I'd prefer to have the animals locked up instead of roaming the streets.

What would you do with them?


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## starlite68 (13 Nov 2008)

Betsy Og said:


> In the Limerick scenario if 30 of the worst could be lifted I suspect that would be enough for the moment, so we're not talking about hundreds.


if the government ever did give this the go ahead..i think we all know it would not stop at 30 people,nor would it be confined to just limerick, 
it would quickly become a nationwide policy for all sorts of alleged offences...however its very unlikely the government would ever agree to something like this,as they know it would almost certainly be successfully challenged in the european court of human rights!


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## MrMan (13 Nov 2008)

starlite68 said:


> if the government ever did give this the go ahead..i think we all know it would not stop at 30 people,nor would it be confined to just limerick,
> it would quickly become a nationwide policy for all sorts of alleged offences...however its very unlikely the government would ever agree to something like this,as they know it would almost certainly be successfully challenged in the european court of human rights!



So are you saying that something like this would not be a good thing? Surely gang warfare is a worldwide issue and maybe it could be tackled on a European front aswell.


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## starlite68 (13 Nov 2008)

MrMan said:


> So are you saying that something like this would not be a good thing? Surely gang warfare is a worldwide issue and maybe it could be tackled on a European front aswell.


if you are saying it would be a good thing...then,as a privous poster said...show us somewhere internment has been successfull!


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## MrMan (13 Nov 2008)

starlite68 said:


> if you are saying it would be a good thing...then,as a privous poster said...show us somewhere internment has been successfull!




I would be willing to try anything to move the balance of power away from the thugs and to try and make the generation after the next one a safer one. The kids growing up from 6 years old are already lost causes in some areas with pre teen boys and girls already engaging in crime. We need something to happen so rather than sit back and pick holes in the downsides I would say that now is the time for a real reaction to gang crimes.


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## starlite68 (13 Nov 2008)

if the government ever got away with bringing in internment...i think we all know it would just be the"thin end of the wedge"
as i said,i think its highly unlikely europe would allow this to happen.


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## Betsy Og (13 Nov 2008)

Are our gardai/department of justice/politicians/judiciary that lacking in integrity that you fear they would run amok if given such powers?

Give them some credit. I'd rather put my life in their hands than run the gauntlet of the gangs.


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## starlite68 (13 Nov 2008)

Betsy Og said:


> Are our gardai/department of justice/politicians/judiciary that lacking in integriaty that you fear they would run amok if given such powers?
> 
> .


 i think most people know the answer to that already!


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## Betsy Og (13 Nov 2008)

starlite68 said:


> i think most people know the answer to that already!


 
I'm not in love with them either, but the alternative that people are living through is worse.

No more than the gangs directly affect me (touch wood, bet you latest victim didnt think he was at risk either), I think my chances of internment are NIL. But I do feel sorry for the people intimidated in their own homes - I bet you they'd take their chances with the guards.

Internment isn't an ideal world solution - I know its' dangers - but faced with unpalatable situations you might have to take unpalatable actions for the greater good.


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## starlite68 (13 Nov 2008)

we would all like to see these criminals brought to justice and punished for their crimes....but to suggest internment as a solution is very knee-jerk....its like useing a sledge hammer to crack a nut. plus its never been proven to actually work anywhere!
better to try to come up with something that might actually work.


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## z104 (13 Nov 2008)

Throw in some sterilisation too for good measure..


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## Betsy Og (13 Nov 2008)

Niallers said:


> Throw in some sterilisation too for good measure..


 
Nah, you'd never get that past the EU 

On a serious note there were strong threats earlier this year of taking neglected kids away from their families. Given the death threats that moving a few horses provoked I'd hate to see the reaction to the child catchers ......


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## ubiquitous (13 Nov 2008)

starlite68 said:


> but to suggest internment as a solution is very knee-jerk.... plus its never been proven to actually work anywhere!



Er, did you bother reading the discussion before you posted this?



ubiquitous said:


> Although I'm far too young to know definitively, I understand that the Irish government used internment quite successfully to counter the IRA campaigns of the late 50s, early 60s, as did De Valera's government against the IRA during WWII (but don't bite my head off if I'm mistaken in this).





Betsy Og said:


> I'd echo that statement about internment in the 50's having worked - because it was a marginalised group, no public support.


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## Caveat (13 Nov 2008)

It was _Conan_ who suggested internment as a possible solution.


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## MrMan (13 Nov 2008)

starlite68 said:


> we would all like to see these criminals brought to justice and punished for their crimes....but to suggest internment as a solution is very knee-jerk....its like useing a sledge hammer to crack a nut. plus its never been proven to actually work anywhere!
> better to try to come up with something that might actually work.



To suggest the current situation nationwide and primarily in our cities as a 'nut' suggests that you are not aware at just how far reaching the gangs influence is on people in their areas. There are probably 3 generations of criminals in place right now with numbers growing, so if the solutions being put forward are not to your liking what strong measures would you suggest?


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## ubiquitous (13 Nov 2008)

Caveat said:


> It was _Conan_ who suggested internment as a possible solution.



... but it was starlite68 who said ...



starlite68 said:


> plus its never been proven to actually work anywhere!



while incidentally failing to answer this



> starlite68 said:
> 
> 
> > if legal..they would only cost a fraction of the price.,plus the money would not be lining the pockets of gangsters!
> ...


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## starlite68 (13 Nov 2008)

MrMan said:


> so if the solutions being put forward are not to your liking what strong measures would you suggest?


 hopefull a measure that a bit of tought has been put into...not just another knee-jerk solution thats most likely going to fail!


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## Simeon (13 Nov 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> There is a big difference. A large minority of the population of Northern Ireland in the 1970s (and later) had various degrees of sympathy with and support for the terrorists. This meant that internment increased public support for the terrorists, and motivated hordes of sympathetic youths to join them.
> 
> In contrast, there is very little public support for the gangsters and no real prospect of large numbers of disaffected youths joining their ranks as a protest against society.


This is probably the best way. But the gardai also have to do their fair share. I mean, it was within their powers to stem this in it's infancy before it became a Hydra.


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## Sunny (13 Nov 2008)

Simeon said:


> This is probably the best way. But the gardai also have to do their fair share. I mean, it was within their powers to stem this in it's infancy before it became a Hydra.


 
How is it the Guards fault? How were they supposed to stem it in its infancy?


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## z104 (13 Nov 2008)

I thing judges have alot tio answer for. Maybe we should picket the courthouse.

Concurrent sentencing is a joke. They should run consecutively.
Parole is a joke. They're let out to commit more crimes and when they're caught they're given a sentence to run concurrently.

99% of the population rarely have dealings with the guards apart from checking for tax and insurance. Why should the balance be in favour of the 1%


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## Simeon (13 Nov 2008)

Sunny said:


> How is it the Guards fault? How were they supposed to stem it in its infancy?


A lot of the older crims are in their 40's and 50's. This is when you had more gardai on the beat. Any cop should know his patch and in that respect should know the hoods within. The complacency among the vast majority of gardai is numbing. As they come out of Templemore they are idealistic but then they get dragged down by the inertia of the stations that they are posted to. After four or five years they just look at it as a decent pensionable job and see out their time in the cosiest possible way. Now, before anyone gets carried away, I did say 'the vast majority', so no semantics please.


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## Sunny (13 Nov 2008)

Simeon said:


> A lot of the older crims are in their 40's and 50's. This is when you had more gardai on the beat. Any cop should know his patch and in that respect should know the hoods within. .


 
I don't get it. The guards are well aware of who the main players in these things are. Most if not all of the leading gang members in Limerick have been before the courts and in prision for various offences. The guards can only do so much given legislative and operating restraints. 

As for guards on the beat getting to know the hoods. Do you really think these guys driving around in bullet proof jeeps with automatic weapons are really going to be dealt with by a community guard and his truncheon giving verbal warnings.


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## MrMan (13 Nov 2008)

Sunny said:


> I don't get it. The guards are well aware of who the main players in these things are. Most if not all of the leading gang members in Limerick have been before the courts and in prision for various offences. The guards can only do so much given legislative and operating restraints.
> 
> As for guards on the beat getting to know the hoods. Do you really think these guys driving around in bullet proof jeeps with automatic weapons are really going to be dealt with by a community guard and his truncheon giving verbal warnings.



Well Dessie Dundon has gone back inside for 10 months on the back on driving offences, he turned himself in after being on the run for a long time.


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## Sunny (13 Nov 2008)

MrMan said:


> Well Dessie Dundon has gone back inside for 10 months on the back on driving offences, he turned himself in after being on the run for a long time.


 
He was on the run for something like 3 weeks. He probably feels like it is safer inside at the moment!!


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## MrMan (13 Nov 2008)

Sunny said:


> He was on the run for something like 3 weeks. He probably feels like it is safer inside at the moment!!




He picked his day for arrest too, when the guards were doing searches on homes for murder weapons and on the day of Shane Geoghans funeral.


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## Simeon (13 Nov 2008)

"[As for guards on the beat getting to know the hoods. Do you really think these guys driving around in bullet proof jeeps with automatic weapons are really going to be dealt with by a community guard and his truncheon giving verbal warnings]".
Exactly! If the gardai were doing their job years ago these vicious thugs would not have been able to build up the confidence, arsenal or criminal know-how to attain their near untouchable status. All these guys started with little jobs before graduating to today's business-like commercial nous. The present outpouring of public anger has prodded the gardai into serial house raiding. All very high profile, good soundbites from the top brass etc. I remember the same results when Veronica Guerin was murdered. A few months later the top brass talking about crime figures down. Years later  (after lots more murders) the then justice minister talking about 'the sting of a dying wasp' etc. The gardai should start earning their salaries ......... as should the law makers. Serious crime is preventable. If jurors get nobbled/ intimidated, then change the jury procedure. It's not rocket science. Special powers can be invoked. Most right thinking people would not take exception to these in the circumstance. Who owns these jeeps/high end cars that these fellows drive around in, giving the finger to law abiding citizens? How did they come about their wealth? Decent families in these neighbourhood are living in hell. Finally, the liberal trendies/civil liberty dreamboats should button it unless they have a real solution. Drastic circumstances call for drastic measures.


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## Duke of Marmalade (13 Nov 2008)

Internment didn't work in the NI in the 70s because there was a hostile state south of the border determined to undermine it by supporting subversive resistence in the nationalist community. I was there, I remember the internment swoops in Andersonstown, sure most had escaped to the safe haven of the Republic before the troops moved in.

Internment would definitely work in gangland Limerick in restoring law and order. That is not the issue - almost certainly the Gardai would abuse there increased powers. We would have law and order, no doubt about that, but we would also have miscarriages of justice - this is a balancing act.


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## Simeon (13 Nov 2008)

Yes Duke, miscarriages of justice would occur. Surely murdering another human being is a miscariage, probably a greater one than our topic. But I would think that, by and large, justice would prevail. The world is not a level playing field. Socio economic miscarriages happen all the time. The police know the main players. They know that they don't engage in gainful legal employment. They must be able (with the help of a quick change of law) to confiscate valuables that cannot be proven to have been got in a legal manner (while the course of law takes it's course).


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## starlite68 (14 Nov 2008)

Simeon said:


> They must be able (with the help of a quick change of law) to confiscate valuables that cannot be proven to have been got in a legal manner (while the course of law takes it's course).


 i taught the C.A.B had that power already?


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## Simeon (14 Nov 2008)

The CAB do have those powers. But what we need is a _summary_ type. By the time CAB get around to doing this (like the ongoing tribunals), these fellows will be a couple of cars down the line. Remember, that lifestyle is a terrific magnet for young people. The same goes for aspiring criminals. The gold bling, expensive clothes and tough-guy reputation is as much a draw as the mobile accoutrements. Style is power in the ghetto. It happens in all cities. Rudy Guiliani's 'three strikes and you're out' policy has done wonders for NY. A few of our roving politicians should have a look for themselves during one of their many all-expenses-paid jaunts in mid March. As for one minister saying that there are enough cops in Limerick to deal with the situation ......... shouldn't an interviewer ask, if so, why the problem remains! As far as I recall, back a few years ago, the same minister said that there was not a major threat posed by the crimnals. And this guy is a lawyer! How did he ever pass his finals.


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## ubiquitous (14 Nov 2008)

Simeon said:


> Rudy Guiliani's 'three strikes and you're out' policy has done wonders for NY.



Very debatable. Guiliani definitely took the credit but there are credible theories that suggest otherwise.


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## Simeon (14 Nov 2008)

The zeitgeist should propel any initiative. If this gets put on the back burner (like the case of that poor young apprentice who was murdered in north Dublin a while back - because he witnesed a killing), it will be another great chance down the drain. It's about time that the PR people in the gardai started doing the job that they are getting paid for (ie. tackling crime) instead of massaging the egos of their handlers.


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## june (15 Nov 2008)

There have been some good points made in this discussion. 
I think the guards would feel that when they catch criminals, build cases etc the criminals are let off lightly or completely by the courts. They know their rights after all. I do not agree with concurrent sentencing for hardened criminals.


I was just thinking that The criminal must cost us a fortune over his lifetime say in comparison to a law abiding person.

Education ( for all the good it was trying to teach them anything)
free houses
Possibly Social workers involved with the families.
social welfare for all their lives
medical expenses all paid
legal expenses all paid
Extra guards employed to protect us from them ( I hope)
prison costs
plus all the cost in human terms of the pain and suffering they inflict on others
I fully support vulnerable families being assisted social welfare, housing, medical expenses, education etc. Children are innocent. But I dont support an underworld of criminality which has been allowed to thrive in these conditions. And I really cant think of any one solution which would solve it. 

I would think that those who take cocaine in this country cannot have a clear conscience here. It boils down to Supply and demand at the end of the day. I would name and shame bigtime anyone caught for possession of drugs in the same way that the Revenue named tax evaders in long lists in the newspapers and impose penalties.

Ireland has given world leading example before like the smoking ban in the workplace ( who would have ever thought that would work?)
and the C.A.B which I believe has been used elsewhere.
Can we do it again???


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## Simeon (15 Nov 2008)

Hopefully! But there must be initiative. The dark ages came to an end in Europe ........ so there's hope. There was a very informative article in today's Indo Weekend Review written by Shane Dunphy. It gives a different slant to the beginnings of all this - going back to the start of the 20th century.


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## Complainer (16 Nov 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> Although I'm far too young to know definitively, I understand that the Irish government used internment quite successfully to counter the IRA campaigns of the late 50s, early 60s, as did De Valera's government against the IRA during WWII (but don't bite my head off if I'm mistaken in this).



Didnt exactly provide a long term solution.


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## Simeon (16 Nov 2008)

Probably because there was a lot of support in rural Ireland for the IRA. There is no such support for these gurriers. Even the weekend spliffers would gladly return to the bottle (good and cheap in most supermarkets now) just to get rid of these recalcitrants.


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## Betsy Og (17 Nov 2008)

Complainer said:


> Didnt exactly provide a long term solution.


 
sure it was a totally different situation (sit-ye-ation ) that erupted in the North, the 50's thing was definitely killed off.

Much like the Nazi's werent the 'gather 'em up' of WWI, they were a new movement.


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