# Advice re PRTB and tenant who ran



## dmos87 (9 Apr 2018)

Hi all. 

Had a tenant in situ from July until end of January this year. Disaster from start to finish. Evicted for non-payment of rent. She disputed claiming it was an illegal eviction - it wasn’t, this was a delay tactic on her part. Just before our hearing with the PRTB, she ran. Keys were left at our personal home and damage done throughout the rental property. First tenant for us so naturally we were gutted, broke from servicing mortgage and management fees and of course frustrated. 

That was end of Jan. I’ve been chasing the PRTB for the Enforcement Order so we can get payment tagged to her PPS. Today they sent a letter stating that unless we can provide them with a current address for said tenant, the case will be closed in two weeks time. The apparently cannot send out the documentation to one party without sending to the other. They have rung her requesting one, but she tells them she doesn’t have an address to provide.

The tenant hasn’t gone far, she’s living locally in a friends (I see her driving around often, it’s a small town). I know the estate she’s in, but can’t identify which house for an address. Her friend is in a council house and is not supposed to have a lodger or someone staying for more than 3 weeks, so I’d imagine she won’t provide the address because of this - her friend could get in trouble with the council. 

Not a cent has been paid of what’s owing (€1,800).  We’re not in a financial position to let this go. 

Any advice on how we can proceed with getting the documentation from the PRTB without it being posted? Anyone had this happen before?


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## Thirsty (10 Apr 2018)

Letter can be sent to dept of social welfare quoting her pps number and asking for letter to be forwarded.

Thats one of the things they do when tracing missing persons, so its a normal practise.


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## Setanta12 (10 Apr 2018)

The PRTB won't do this themselves.  They will give up after a while of not locating the old tenant. Will the Soc. Welfare do this on foot of a request from a private individual ?


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## LS400 (10 Apr 2018)

dmos87 said:


> Today they sent a letter stating that unless we can provide them with a current address for said tenant, the case will be closed in two weeks time.



Is this your interpretation of the letter, or, are this crowd actually holding you, with the responsibility for this action to succeed, based on your lack of knowledge, for the whereabouts of an alleged rouge tenant ?.

They have spoken to this person, they are aware she is not co-operating, and you, are held accountable for this... 

I must be missing something in the opening post. Im aware they get some criticism, but can it be really this bad.


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## dmos87 (10 Apr 2018)

LS400 said:


> Is this your interpretation of the letter, or, are this crowd actually holding you, with the responsibility for this action to succeed, based on your lack of knowledge, for the whereabouts of an alleged rouge tenant ?.
> 
> They have spoken to this person, they are aware she is not co-operating, and you, are held accountable for this...
> 
> I must be missing something in the opening post. Im aware they get some criticism, but can it be really this bad.




Here is the letter word for word: 

"Dear X, 

I refer to your application to the Residential Tenancies Board for dispute resolution services and I wish to inform you that we do not have a current address for the respondent involved in this dispute. We have tried to locate a current address for the respondent and we have been unsuccessful. 

In order to find current addresses for parties, we use information from other state bodies available to us under the Residential Tenancies Act 2004, as well as the RTB internal database. We also use public information such as the Land Registry, the Vision-Net Database and other internet sources. 

Unless you are in a position to provide us with a new address for this respondent within 14 days of the date of issue of this letter, we will be unable to process your dispute any further and the Board will deem your application withdrawn.

It is regretted that we were not in a position to assist you on this occasion. 

Yours sincerely,


XXXXXX
Dispute Resolution Service"


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## PaddyBloggit (10 Apr 2018)

dmos87 said:


> Unless you are in a position to provide us with a new address for this respondent within 14 days of the date of issue of this letter, we will be unable to process your dispute any further and the Board will deem your application withdrawn.



Shameful attitude... and quite condescending too.


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## Vanessa (11 Apr 2018)

dmos87 said:


> Hi all.
> 
> Had a tenant in situ from July until end of January this year. Disaster from start to finish. Evicted for non-payment of rent. She disputed claiming it was an illegal eviction - it wasn’t, this was a delay tactic on her part. Just before our hearing with the PRTB, she ran. Keys were left at our personal home and damage done throughout the rental property. First tenant for us so naturally we were gutted, broke from servicing mortgage and management fees and of course frustrated.
> 
> ...



You should show a bit more initiative if you know the estate she lives in. It cant be that difficult to spot coming from work or the shops and see which house she enters.
Of course you are also finding out that the PRTB are useless


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## Waver (11 Apr 2018)

From the RTB website

"
*What happens if my contact details change and do not inform the other party or the RTB?*
In addition to publically available records, the RTB have data sharing arrangements with a number of public bodies such as the Department of Social Protection and in most cases, can track the current addresses of non-compliant parties. 

Any delay as a result of not engaging in the process may lead to additional costs being awarded against a non-compliant party in court."
Have you asked why they are not using these data sharing agreements?

Even if you get an address and get an Enforcement order are you ever likely to get any money? You can get a court order but if they still don't pay the burden of proof is on you to show they have the money and are wilfully refusing to pay.


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## dereko1969 (11 Apr 2018)

dmos87 said:


> Here is the letter word for word:
> 
> "Dear X,
> 
> ...





Waver said:


> From the RTB website
> 
> "
> *What happens if my contact details change and do not inform the other party or the RTB?*
> ...



They obviously have but have been unsuccessful.


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## Setanta12 (11 Apr 2018)

My advice?  It was only 6 months.  You have to suck it up. You will not get costs here.  I wouldn't consider it lesson learnt as it's an occupational hazard. (Speaking as someone who's been there)


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## dmos87 (11 Apr 2018)

Vanessa said:


> You should show a bit more initiative if you know the estate she lives in. It cant be that difficult to spot coming from work or the shops and see which house she enters.



Believe me, I'm trying. Unfortunately its a complex and I can't know for certain which internal property she's entering. Its incredibly frustrating. I have put feelers out though and am hoping to hear back. I'm also trying to track down her new workplace as the PRTB have said I can provide that address as an alternative.


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## dmos87 (11 Apr 2018)

Setanta12 said:


> My advice?  It was only 6 months.  You have to suck it up. You will not get costs here.  I wouldn't consider it lesson learnt as it's an occupational hazard. (Speaking as someone who's been there)



It may have only been seven months but financially it hit us really hard and we're struggling to recover. She was our first tenant so there wasn't a 'kitty' of funds to sit on. We did all checks possible for references and rental history, we were just unlucky. The property will be going on the market in the next two weeks. 

Theres also a second dispute case open for the damages caused to the property when she left - approx 1K. That dispute also lies on an address being needed but has not progressed as far as this one. 

On principal I'm not willing to let this go - even if it takes years and I have to go to court to get it attached to her PPS, I will. Driving past my home every day giving smirky looks when she spots us, its so infuriating.


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## Mrs Vimes (11 Apr 2018)

I feel sorry for you being stung like that.

Could you buy some helium-filled balloons and go to the apartment complex as if you are a delivery person and ask around? Someone might tell you which apt she's in (if they know).

For your own mental health you would probably be better off letting it go though.


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## Waver (11 Apr 2018)

What do you mean by getting it attached to her PPS? What do you think is going to happen? Even if you get an instalment order it is likely you will never see this money?


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## LS400 (11 Apr 2018)

dmos87 said:


> On principal I'm not willing to let this go - even if it takes years and I have to go to court to get it attached to her PPS, I will.



Absolutely agree with you on that. If more property owners adopted a similar position, these folk who sponge off others may just think twice about their actions.

Its a spongers dream to hear the usual thoughts, not worth chasing, get on with your life, etc etc Well its not good enough in my book. All were doing is moving the problem next door, like a flippen merry go-round.


That pfo letter is an absolute disgrace from a State Body. How does that encourage anyone to play by the rules, when, in doing so, they put the onus of failure at your feet.


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## dmos87 (11 Apr 2018)

LS400 said:


> That pfo letter is an absolute disgrace from a State Body. How does that encourage anyone to play by the rules, when, in doing so, they put the onus of failure at your feet.



Exactly. The PRTB allowed her to open a dispute claiming we were illegally evicting her despite us providing all evidence that we hadn't. They allowed her to remain at the property for an additional 2 months while we waited for the hearing date. I am furious with them because they enabled her to take advantage and then just disappear before the hearing.

How its our responsibility to track her down is beyond me!


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## cremeegg (11 Apr 2018)

dmos87 said:


> On principal I'm not willing to let this go - even if it takes years and I have to go to court to get it attached to her PPS, I will. Driving past my home every day giving smirky looks when she spots us, its so infuriating.



You are in business, take your knocks and move on. There will be good days in the future as well.


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## Setanta12 (12 Apr 2018)

My advice to 'move on' was based on a 'been there, seen that' incident.  I took it as far as I could on principals, until I too received the same letter you did.  I didn't have the money to throw away, on obtaining a judgement which would be ignored anyway.


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## AlbacoreA (12 Apr 2018)

LS400 said:


> ...If more property owners adopted a similar position, these folk who sponge off others may just think twice about their actions.....



Reality check. The LL has no means or support from any public body in chasing down this client. Even if the LL does chase them down, there is no support in getting any restitution.


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## LS400 (12 Apr 2018)

But that can is making a hell of a racket as it bounces down the road. 

The sad truth starring you in the face is, there is more probability now of the same happening to you again, as rouge tenants see how easy it is to play games without repercussions.

There are approx 120000 committed Landlords in Ireland, including another 50000 accidental LLs, thats a heck of a lot of people power. If you had a similar per-portion of an entity in the public sector with a Trade Union fighting its cause, I can Guarantee you, there would be changes, but the sad reality is no Elected Public Representative is prepared to put their head above the parapet to shout "stop this nonsense" as, they will suffer from public backlash. 

Irish Politics is not about doing the right thing, its about doing whats more popular than not, and until we have Politicians who buck the trend and jump off the gravy train, we will be having the same conversations in 10 years time.

There is another Gareth Fitzgerald out there some where, and no-doubt someone here has an issue or poison to drag up with his time in Politics, but imo, it was more about doing the right thing with him than the popular thing.

Btw, Im not a supporter of Fine Gael, I just admire good people. 

So, @Setanta12 , in a proper functioning society, you would not have had to give up on your principles, more likely, this situation would probably never taken place.


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## AlbacoreA (12 Apr 2018)

LL rights did not suddenly disappear. They've gone incrementally over the last two decades, through a a few different Govts. 

The main issues for LL's is the time and cost it takes to regain control of a property. The only way to minimize losses is to get it back rented as fast as possible with minimal cost. 

The cost and time taken to recover a property has massively increased.


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## Vanessa (18 Apr 2018)

I think it is an undeclared government policy to drive small landlords from the market and hand the area over to the big REIT companies.
The small investor trying to build up a pension is going to be driven out of business


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## dmos87 (6 Sep 2018)

Hi all. 

We finally received our order from the PRTB regarding this, ruled in our favour of course. 

Can anyone talk me through the next steps, is it applying for a court order? Finding v little guidance online. 

Thank you.


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## Bronte (7 Sep 2018)

dmos87 said:


> On principal I'm not willing to let this go - even if it takes years and I have to go to court to get it attached to her PPS, I will. Driving past my home every day giving smirky looks when she spots us, its so infuriating.



I think you're great to do this.  And I'm saying that as a landlord.  Delighted she is working.  Otherwise I'd tell you to stop wasting your time.  I hope you get an attachment order, even if it's a fiver a week.  That would be very satisfying. 

To the poster who told us the PRTB hard stories are incorrect on here. Right here on this thread us landlords know the reality of how toothless and useless you are. 

If this lady is working her PRSI records in the Revenue and social welfare know where she works and also know where she resides.


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## Bronte (7 Sep 2018)

dmos87 said:


> Hi all.
> 
> We finally received our order from the PRTB regarding this, ruled in our favour of course.
> 
> ...



Outrageous the PRTB didn't tell you the next steps. Why don't you ask them. They'll tell you to go to court, which of course was the whole point of the PRTB, the avoidance of court, and yet here you are now with your PRTB order which is worth precisely 0 to you.  You're out of pocket. The PRTB can go to court for you, but they will make a financial decision not to because they will decide it's not worth pursing.  Because landlords are a mark, but tenants are generally not. 

It would be worth an analysis of what percentage of PRTB determination orders the PRTB went to court on for landlords versus tenants.  And I bet anything they have those figures.


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## Sarenco (7 Sep 2018)

Bronte said:


> It would be worth an analysis of what percentage of PRTB determination orders the PRTB went to court on for landlords versus tenants.  And I bet anything they have those figures.


The RTB publishes that information on an annual basis - it's not a secret.
https://onestopshop.rtb.ie/images/uploads/Comms and Research/RTB_Annual_Report_2017_Web_Final.pdf


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## Gervan (16 Sep 2018)

I don't know if this has been posted elsewhere, but gives some example of PRTB action timescale and outcome for landlord
https://www.independent.ie/irish-ne...ordeal-with-rentdodging-tenants-37317965.html


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## Sarenco (16 Sep 2018)

The case reported in the Indo is a good example, in my opinion, why is is critical for LLs to monitor rent payments and upkeep like a hawk and to move quickly to terminate a tenancy and/or file a complaint with the RTB as soon as a problem arises.

It seems a shame but that’s the system we have and there are increasing numbers of tenants that abuse it.  This is not a business where it pays to be “nice”.

I wonder did the LL in this case request the RTB to seek a Court order to enforce their determination?


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## dmos87 (21 Sep 2018)

Hi All,

I've been advised by the PRTB the next step is the District court. We can submit the application ourselves however - the tenant has not provided a new address to us. She has provided this to the PRTB for the Determination Order to be sent out, but they will not provide it to us which I understand is for privacy reasons.

Without an address for her I cannot submit the application myself. Any advice? We're stuck! I should note she has not been in our local area for some time so any chance I have of locating her myself is gone.


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## Bronte (21 Sep 2018)

Well the irony of that post, the RTB is saying to another landlord they cannot pursue the tenant as they don't know where the tenant is living, depite having access to many state agencies and told the landlord to supply an address if they want the matter to be pursued.

And now here you have a landlord twarted by the RTB refusing to a) take the court case b) give the landlord the tenant's address.


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## Sarenco (21 Sep 2018)

Bronte said:


> And now here you have a landlord twarted by the RTB refusing to a) take the court case


How do you know that?


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## Bronte (21 Sep 2018)

Sarenco said:


> How do you know that?



Because
a) The RTB is not taking the case
b) The RTB told the landlord his only next option is to take the determination order to the District court

The when we view this case in the RTB statistics it will show

- the the order was for the landlord
- will not show that the order was pointless
- will not show the RTB refused to take a court case for the landlord
- will not show that the RTB decided against taking a case as they have decided not to waste their money and instead let the landlord do all the legwork and costs -despite the RTB being funded by the landlords, zero funded by tenants
- will not show that the RTB order, and determination order are a waste of this landlords time
- will not show the landlord can not take a case becasue of the refusal of the RTB to supply the tenant's address
- will not show that the whole point of the RTB was to take all these cases out of court and instead the RTB is used as a tool for tenant's to delay and twart landlords


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## Sarenco (21 Sep 2018)

Bronte said:


> The RTB is not taking the case


We haven't been told that @Bronte - you've just assumed that is the case.

The OP told us that the RTB advised that the District Court is the next step and they can make the application themselves.

Has the OP requested the RTB to pursue the case on their behalf?  We don't know.


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## dmos87 (21 Sep 2018)

I have been provided a form I need to complete and return to them. She advised me that there are delays in the RTB taking the case on our behalf. It would certainly be much better if we could take the case ourselves but without an address its impossible.


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## Sarenco (21 Sep 2018)

I don't see that you have any option other than to ask the RTB to pursue the case on your behalf.  

Do let us know how you get on.


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## Bronte (21 Sep 2018)

dmos87 said:


> I have been provided a form I need to complete and return to them. She advised me that there are delays in the RTB taking the case on our behalf. It would certainly be much better if we could take the case ourselves but without an address its impossible.


How long is the delay?

I thought the whole reason that these cases had moved from the Circuit court to the District court was to reduce the delays - as Circuit court dates take longer - so not much point moving to a lower court for shorter delays if instead it means it will still take as long. At least it is cheaper. 

Whether or which it doesn't detract from the fact that the whole idea of the RTB was to avoid court altogether.


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