# Buying a house - new shared driveway, no boundary line



## MandyD (5 Jan 2023)

We are in the process of buying a terraced house. The only house in the neighbourhood with shared driveway which, as per our surveyors report and our google maps checks, appears to have been done by the neighbour in the last few months. There is no planning permission in place for these works. The house was previously rented for 10+ years so I guess the renters didn't see a reason to get involved. 

The neighbour has removed a physical boundary (a kerb) and a planter between the two properties, and hard surfaced the front area with a new tarmac.  This means that there is no physical boundary between the two properties at present, with the new hard surface in front of the neighbours house - different colour - visually incorporating a portion of the land that belongs to the property we are hoping to buy. 

We don't mind the hard surface but are concerned with potential future issues, possibly legal, if the line between the two surfaces is treated by the neighbour as the line of their property. Since the kerb and planter removal, they have placed a 3-bin storage roughly along this line, and are leaving bicycles laying around in this area.

We have raised it with the vendors and asked that the true boundary line is clearly defined. Their reply was, in summary, that the vendor is _'not aware that the neighbours removed anything'_ (re kerb and planter - how can he not be aware, it was his house for years?), that the neighbours' storage is positioned_ 'in keeping with the boundary line'_, and that _'it would be up to a new owner to define a boundary if they wish'._

Is the vendor correct? We haven't replied to them yet, not sure what next. Our solicitor has raised the issue with the vendors' solicitors as well and are now awaiting a reply.

Should I write to the vendor, attach images of 'before' and 'after', and again request defining this boundary? Should it be a condition of the contract? We like the house, want to buy it and would not like to loose it over this issue. But at the same time we would like to have it resolved before we sign, main reason being to avoid any potential conflict with the neighbour next door as they are already 'spreading' over land that is not theirs.

I would be most grateful for your opinions.


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## KOW (5 Jan 2023)

MandyD said:


> We are in the process of buying a terraced house. The only house in the neighbourhood with shared driveway which, as per our surveyors report and our google maps checks, appears to have been done by the neighbour in the last few months. There is no planning permission in place for these works. The house was previously rented for 10+ years so I guess the renters didn't see a reason to get involved.
> 
> The neighbour has removed a physical boundary (a kerb) and a planter between the two properties, and hard surfaced the front area with a new tarmac.  This means that there is no physical boundary between the two properties at present, with the new hard surface in front of the neighbours house - different colour - visually incorporating a portion of the land that belongs to the property we are hoping to buy.
> 
> ...


You state that your solicitor has raised the issue and awaits reply. It is an issue that needs to be sorted legally. Anybody purchasing the property will require the same information and the vendors will be aware of this. Sit tight and let the legals earn their keep.


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## MandyD (5 Jan 2023)

Thank you so much @KOW for your reply! 

I am concerned about it actually. Our solicitor, after receiving a copy of the survey report, sent an email to us before Christmas with a proposed date for contract signing in early January, said she would read the report in the new year, and asked that we confirm for her file that we have read through the report and are happy to proceed with the purchase. This is when I talked to the surveyor and replied to the solicitor with a list of all the various concerns raised in the report, the boundary issue being one of the two main ones. 

The solicitor's reply was quite dismissive about the issue and her comments clearly indicated that she was not familiar with the report - she wrote that_ 'from a legal perspective, I am only concerned with the official legal map and the site as outlined thereon. It would seem that since there is no actual physical boundary in place at the front that there is some ambiguity as to the true boundary line. The vendors have confirmed with the title documents that there are no disputes with the neighbour as regard boundary lines'. _ I wrote back to her that there was a physical boundary in place just a few months earlier, etc. - it was all in the report! I called twice - no call back, only an email to say that she is dealing with all the issues raised and that she is still on annual leave.

What if our solicitor says that this is not a legal issue and not for her to resolve? She refers to our meeting next week - any concerns or questions we raise she wants to talk about then.  We feel pressured into attending the meeting and signing the contract regardless of the outcomes of the queries.  Should we still sign the contract even with the boundary issue not resolved?  

Is it a good idea to send another email to her and to the vendor, with screenshots of the google street and map views, photos showing the 'before' and 'after' - just to make sure that they have all the information readily available and cannot say they were not aware?


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## Páid (5 Jan 2023)

You need to be clear with your solicitor that you are not willing to sign the contract while this issue is not resolved to your satisfaction.

What will your relationship with the neighbour be like if you do purchase the house andone party feels aggrieved?


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## MandyD (5 Jan 2023)

Thank you @Páid! Yes, I agree re the relationship with the neigbour.

But our solicitor doesn't seem to consider it her problem to resolve and is not concerned about it when it comes to signing the contract. If we disagree with her - where do we go from there? 

The solicitor was recommended by at least two people, one of whom had boundary issue this solicitor resolved very successfully but charged extra. The surveyor has worked with this solicitor before as well, spoke very highly of her and how persistent she was when it came to resolving issues. 

I am reading and re-reading email in which our solicitor listed their services, no specific mention of resolving potential boundary issues, although services include _'review of the surveyor's/ engineer's report and advice to client' _and _'full review of the contracts for sale, title documents & replies to requisition on title to ensure that the vendors have good title and following up on any matters that are not in order'_.


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## ClubMan (5 Jan 2023)

Solicitors advise, clients instruct.
So if you want this issue resolved then you need to instruct to that effect.
Based on what you've posted, you may incur additional fees by doing so.
If you're not happy with the solicitor then you could try another, but you'll still have to pay the current solicitor for work done to date.


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## KOW (5 Jan 2023)

MandyD said:


> We are in the process of buying a terraced house. The only house in the neighbourhood with shared driveway which, as per our surveyors report and our google maps checks, appears to have been done by the neighbour in the last few months. There is no planning permission in place for these works. The house was previously rented for 10+ years so I guess the renters didn't see a reason to get involved.
> 
> The neighbour has removed a physical boundary (a kerb) and a planter between the two properties, and hard surfaced the front area with a new tarmac.  This means that there is no physical boundary between the two properties at present, with the new hard surface in front of the neighbours house - different colour - visually incorporating a portion of the land that belongs to the property we are hoping to buy.
> 
> ...


Mandy your requirement on this issue is 100%. Do not doubt yourself. You need the issue resolved. I would send a one liner to your solictor polite stating that you are eager to sign contracts but not until this issue is resolved. How could you sign contracts the way things are? All will work out


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## MandyD (5 Jan 2023)

Thank you @ClubMan and @KOW.


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## bish123 (5 Jan 2023)

Legal advice and settlement is minimum and must do. There is a civil matter of moving next to neighbours who have unilaterally decided to make changes to neighbourung property. Only you can answer this question.


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## Salvadore (5 Jan 2023)

Páid said:


> You need to be clear with your solicitor that you are not willing to sign the contract while this issue is not resolved to your satisfaction.


Notwithstanding the legalities, you would be well advised to make the resolution of this issue a condition of your agreement to buy.

it’s much easier to deal with now rather than after you move in. It may impact your relationship with the neighbour but that’s something you need to be prepared to live with if you really want the house.

I had a similar issue years ago. My solicitor was interested only in getting his fee for conveyance and didn’t want to hear about our ‘conditions’. We held firm and were glad that we did. Solicitor was annoyed with us. Relations not great with the neighbour but we put down a marker which has served us well over the years.


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## MandyD (6 Jan 2023)

Thank you for your comments @bish123 and @Salvadore! 

Of course it would make a lot of sense to resolve it now. Although we thought that doing it now would actually mean avoiding bad relations with the neighbour altogether as clear boundary line would address any ambiguity. If I had to choose to start on the bad foot with a stranger next door or try resolve any potential future issues with a neighbour we may become friendly with - the latter option sounds better.

We are worried that we loose the house if we make things difficult for the vendor, or that it all drags on with our letter of loan offer expiring and mortgage interest rates rising. We are eager to move into our own place as it took us a long time to find a house that we like and can afford. Plus our rent is set to increase yet again in March. So lots of motivation to just get on with it.

We'll hear what our solicitor advises next week.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (6 Jan 2023)

MandyD said:


> We are worried that *we loose the house if we make things difficult for the vendor*, or that it all drags on with our letter of loan offer expiring and mortgage interest rates rising.


This is very likely to be an issue for the vendor if the sale falls through with you and it goes back on the market again.

It is in their interest to resolve it now.


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## MandyD (6 Jan 2023)

True @NoRegretsCoyote - thank you.


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## peemac (6 Jan 2023)

I'd be more worried about what the direct and attached next door neighbours are like.

Maybe make a few discreet enquiries.

There's nothing worse than having bad neighbours and you may find this a blessing in disguise.


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## cremeegg (7 Jan 2023)

Did you get an engineers report to confirm the boundaries. That is fairly standard I would say. 

I would have thought the bank would not issue the loan with this outstanding

Something does not add up here.


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## dubdub123 (7 Jan 2023)

The surveyor should be able to check land registry and confirm boundary and if its not matching the physical boundary I would have expected that the solicitor would need to flag this with lender.
I had an awful run around when buying my house as the surveyor flagged a minor planning issue - a porch door that had been in place years, but that previous owners could not confirm 7 year rule as they were here couple of years. Literally as minor as you could get, but solicitor was under an obligation to notify my lender. At one stage it looked like we would need to give lender an undertaking (i think was the phrase). 
I would also be concerned about the possibility of issues with neighbour in your scenario. They clearly knew they were crossing boundary but dont care. It might be grand if you get it sorted but they could be an aggrieved person who will make life difficult.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (7 Jan 2023)

dubdub123 said:


> I had an awful run around when buying my house as the surveyor flagged a minor planning issue - a porch door that had been in place years, but that previous owners could not confirm 7 year rule as they were here couple of years


I have relatives selling a rural one-off who have still not signed contracts on a house that went sale agreed six months ago.

Buyer's lender raised issue about boundaries that needed an architect's report, then a planning issue related to a misplaced septic tank from the 1980s. They need confirmation from CC that enforcement action was never taken.

All of these issues were present when relatives bought in 1990s but lenders seemed less bothered then. Am not sure if criteria are stricter now but it's worth bearing in mind.

@MandyD - it's not impossible that your own lender might raise the boundary issue before drawdown.


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## MandyD (7 Jan 2023)

peemac said:


> I'd be more worried about what the direct and attached next door neighbours are like.
> 
> Maybe make a few discreet enquiries.
> 
> There's nothing worse than having bad neighbours and you may find this a blessing in disguise.


We have visited the area a few times, at different days and times of the day. The impressions are very positive. Also, a friend of ours lived a street or two away for many years and have only recently moved to a bigger house, she loved the area. We are hoping that this aspect is going to be generally OK.


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## MandyD (7 Jan 2023)

cremeegg said:


> Did you get an engineers report to confirm the boundaries. That is fairly standard I would say.
> 
> I would have thought the bank would not issue the loan with this outstanding
> 
> Something does not add up here.


It was our surveyor who has highlighted the issue. The driveway is just one large hard surfaced area, with the newer surface a different colour. So there is no physical boundary. I wouldn't know what bank may say, this issue has not been highlighted in the Valuation Report and the documents are showing the correct boundary line.


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## newirishman (7 Jan 2023)

MandyD said:


> It was our surveyor who has highlighted the issue. The driveway is just one large hard surfaced area, with the newer surface a different colour. So there is no physical boundary. I wouldn't know what bank may say, this issue has not been highlighted in the Valuation Report and the documents are showing the correct boundary line.


Nothing should stop you from putting up a physical barrier though once you own the place.
As long as the boundary is clear and not disputed, and not getting the impression that there is an issue.


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## MandyD (7 Jan 2023)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> I have relatives selling a rural one-off who have still not signed contracts on a house that went sale agreed six months ago.
> 
> Buyer's lender raised issue about boundaries that needed an architect's report, then a planning issue related to a misplaced septic tank from the 1980s. They need confirmation from CC that enforcement action was never taken.
> 
> ...


Six months is a long time! I hope your relatives see the contracts signed soon and can move on. Who is the lender, if it's not confidential?


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## MandyD (7 Jan 2023)

newirishman said:


> Nothing should stop you from putting up a physical barrier though once you own the place.
> As long as the boundary is clear and not disputed, and not getting the impression that there is an issue.


It makes sense. It could be done now - which would delay the purchase - or later.


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## Salvadore (8 Jan 2023)

newirishman said:


> Nothing should stop you from putting up a physical barrier though once you own the place.
> As long as the boundary is clear and not disputed, and not getting the impression that there is an issue.


There have been several posts on this forum to the effect that changes to boundaries require the consent of all parties. 

If the neighbour has already removed what was a minor physical barrier (the kerb), it’s unlikely they would consent to the installation of a more physically significant barrier, such as a wall or fence.

I take the view that high walls make for good neighbours and that sharing arrangements with people you don’t know are risky.

Practically however, it may not suit either party to have a physical barrier that would only inhibit each other’s access (for example, would there be enough space to open a car door?)

It might be that occasional “trespass” onto each other’s side of the driveway is an acceptable compromise, as long of course as it’s not abused or unreasonably relied upon.


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## MandyD (8 Jan 2023)

There are no walls or fences to the front of the houses in the area, kerbs and planters are the closest to physical barriers. A planning permission would be required for a wall or a fence, and a very good reason for wanting to be 'out of character' with the area. I think @Salvadore that we can live with the situation you have described in the last paragraph - the occasional 'trespass' - as the driveway between the original kerbs was indeed very narrow and the kerb a tripping hazard for both households.


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## Leo (Monday at 10:00 AM)

newirishman said:


> Nothing should stop you from putting up a physical barrier though once you own the place.
> As long as the boundary is clear and not disputed, and not getting the impression that there is an issue.


It is permitted to erect a fence or wall up to 1.4m in height under exempted development with some caveats, but you would need the other parties permission to do so along the boundary. If they did not grant such permission, the wall and all foundations would need to be entirely on your own property which might make not work in smaller spaces.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (Monday at 10:20 AM)

MandyD said:


> Who is the lender, if it's not confidential?


I don't know, not even sure my relatives know either!


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## Peanuts20 (Monday at 4:51 PM)

It's all going to depend on what the neighbours are like. At best, you do need to legally resolve the issue so it is not a problem if/when you sell and your neighbour is decent, raises no objection to you putting a divide in (if needed) and to whatever needs to be done legally. At worst, (and I'm unclear who put the kerb in place in the first place) they become very awkard and object to everything you do.

Personally, I'd be inclined to walk away or at least, ask the vendor to knock 5 or 10k off the asking price to cover your legal costs to resolve the issue if they are not going to do so. I've been through boundary disputes in the past and they are a right pain.


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## AlbacoreA (Monday at 5:06 PM)

Can you see the kerb on old photos like in Google or Bing maps.


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## MandyD (Monday at 6:07 PM)

Leo said:


> It is permitted to erect a fence or wall up to 1.4m in height under exempted development with some caveats, but you would need the other parties permission to do so along the boundary. If they did not grant such permission, the wall and all foundations would need to be entirely on your own property which might make not work in smaller spaces.


I didn't know it! Thank you @Leo .


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## MandyD (Monday at 7:21 PM)

Peanuts20 said:


> It's all going to depend on what the neighbours are like. At best, you do need to legally resolve the issue so it is not a problem if/when you sell and your neighbour is decent, raises no objection to you putting a divide in (if needed) and to whatever needs to be done legally. At worst, (and I'm unclear who put the kerb in place in the first place) they become very awkard and object to everything you do.
> 
> Personally, I'd be inclined to walk away or at least, ask the vendor to knock 5 or 10k off the asking price to cover your legal costs to resolve the issue if they are not going to do so. I've been through boundary disputes in the past and they are a right pain.


We'll hear what our solicitor has to say. But we do like everything else about this property, so we would be reluctant to miss out on it.


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## MandyD (Monday at 9:20 PM)

AlbacoreA said:


> Can you see the kerb on old photos like in Google or Bing maps.


Yes, and the planter.


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