# Proper fines for people not paying their tolls



## Brendan Burgess (21 Nov 2017)

The National Roads Authority had a good day in court yesterday.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/cri...s-fines-of-130-000-for-toll-dodgers-1.3299500

People were fined €13,500 each for multiple passes of the M50 without paying any toll e.g. 
_
Milk-van owner, Brian Fortune from Glenhill Drive, [broken link removed] East, Dublin, was fined €16,000. The NRA witness said that between May 22nd and May 24th last there were nine journeys made by his van and each toll would have cost €3.90 because of the classification of his vehicle.


Ms Kavanagh also said that in total his van had done 350 passages on the motorway and just two of the tolls had been paid in April.


Judge Brennan said the fact the defendant was a commercial enterprise was another aggravating factor.
_
These guys should also have had their cars seized.

Brendan


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## llgon (21 Nov 2017)

RTE outlined these offences on the news last night but didn't name those convicted. Why not?


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## Brendan Burgess (21 Nov 2017)

A print item is different from a TV item.  The names aren't that relevant. 

Brendan


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## cremeegg (21 Nov 2017)

Brendan Burgess said:


> _
> Milk-van owner, Brian Fortune from Glenhill Drive, [broken link removed] East, Dublin, was fined €16,000. The NRA witness said that between May 22nd and May 24th last there were nine journeys made by his van and each toll would have cost €3.90 because of the classification of his vehicle.
> _



What is the likelihood that the fine will ever be paid. Very small I suggest.


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## odyssey06 (21 Nov 2017)

What are the chances this company is fully paid up for tax, insurance, NCT, and with Revenue commissioners?


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## T McGibney (21 Nov 2017)

The named individuals will presumably claim they didn't own the respective vehicles on the dates in question.


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## Leo (21 Nov 2017)

cremeegg said:


> What is the likelihood that the fine will ever be paid. Very small I suggest.



Given that these are court imposed fines I'd imagine there's a good chance they will be paid unless he's prepared to do some jail time.  Almost 8.5k people were jailed here last year for non-payment of fines, and that's after the 2014 Fines Act that was supposed to cut down on the numbers being jailed by encouraging alternatives such as wage attachment orders or community service.


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## cremeegg (21 Nov 2017)

Leo said:


> Almost 8.5k people were jailed here last year for non-payment of fines,




Thats encouraging. However I would think that includes people who do a few hours or an overnight.

I would think that most people who live their lives like this, not paying toll fees for example, would hardly be deterred by a single night in jail.



Leo said:


> the 2014 Fines Act that was supposed to cut down on the numbers being jailed by encouraging alternatives such as wage attachment orders or community service.



Are attachment orders being issued now, I thought there was some hold up with these.


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## Delboy (21 Nov 2017)

From listening to Paddy O'Gorman's coverage of the Courts on the Sean O'Rourke show every week, it appears that only a tiny minority are actually stupid enough to pay the fines imposed. 
Most are driven to jail, registered, given a meal and a bus ticket back to whence they came. All on the same day. It's seen as a day out by many.


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## Leo (21 Nov 2017)

cremeegg said:


> I would think that most people who live their lives like this, not paying toll fees for example, would hardly be deterred by a single night in jail.



Sadly true I fear.



cremeegg said:


> Are attachment orders being issued now, I thought there was some hold up with these.



They're certainly issued in other areas, I hadn't heard there were problems relating to non-payment of fines, but I haven't really been following that.


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## Purple (21 Nov 2017)

A guy I work with was fined €600 for driving with no insurance. His insurance would have cost over €2000. Why would he not take the risk (ethical and moral arguments aside).


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## vandriver (21 Nov 2017)

The 5 penalty points,the court appearance?The fact that if he's caught again it could be jail.


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## MrEarl (22 Nov 2017)

Hello,

That penalty for no insurance is a joke and would only encourage people to take a chance and drive without insurance - judge is at fault here, as much as the offender !

Getting back to the fines for the repeat offenders who didn't pay their tolls, I'm delighted for them and expect all of them to be pursued to ensure that payment is obtained from every single one of them (assuming none can actually prove they are innocent, but I doubt they can at this stage).


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## ant dee (22 Nov 2017)

Well, if you hit someone and don't have insurance you can end up with a life-ruining bill!


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## Delboy (22 Nov 2017)

MrEarl said:


> Hello,
> Getting back to the fines for the repeat offenders who didn't pay their tolls, I'm delighted for them and expect all of them to be pursued to ensure that payment is obtained from every single one of them (assuming none can actually prove they are innocent, but I doubt they can at this stage).


Expect all you want but the likelihood is that few will pay anything


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## MrEarl (22 Nov 2017)

Then I hope the courts take further action against them.

Judgement mortgages, sherrifs calling to their doors to collect, prison terms (where they actually stay in and get to enjoy all of the "fringe benefits") - long past time we started dealing with all crime properly, so let there be no exceptions for those who don't pay their tolls


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## T McGibney (22 Nov 2017)

MrEarl said:


> Then I hope the courts take further action against them.
> 
> Judgement mortgages, *sherrifs calling to their doors to collect,* prison terms (where they actually stay in and get to enjoy all of the "fringe benefits") - long past time we started dealing with all crime properly, so let there be no exceptions for those who don't pay their tolls




System doesn't work like that. Wherever they assess that there is no or little chance of collecting anything worth talking about, sheriffs don't bother wasting resources in chasing debtors.


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## MrEarl (22 Nov 2017)

There is a key difference between can't pay and will not pay, as I'm sure you will appreciate. 

My comment was posted in response to Delboy and I took his post to imply that people would not pay, rather than could not pay.

Anyway, if someone genuinely cannot pay, then they should not have been using the toll roads should they ?


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## cremeegg (22 Nov 2017)

ant dee said:


> Well, if you hit someone and don't have insurance you can end up with a life-ruining bill!



Not if you have little or no assets.


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## cremeegg (22 Nov 2017)

MrEarl said:


> There is a key difference between can't pay and will not pay, as I'm sure you will appreciate.



That is fallacy that has done great damage to the secured lending business as well. 

I can't pay because if I do I will have no money to feed my children.
You can't pay because if you do you will have no money to go skiing.


And then there is I can pay but I will say I can't and who will know the difference.


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## MrEarl (23 Nov 2017)

Cremeegg,

For the absolute avoidance of doubt, when I mentioned "can't pay" I meant it in it's true sense.

You are correct with your reference to the secured lending business, but part of that is the Banks fault for not going after those borrowers who can pay, but won't.

Anyone worth their salt would go through a person's bank statements and credit card statements thoroughly, then even go and hire a private investigator, before accepting that a person genuinely can't pay.  It's not hard to see what cars are in a driveway, what schools the kids are going to, what the people are doing socially etc. Anyone found to be telling lies should be dealt with most severely.

I'm all for helping those who really need help, but punishing those that don't and have elected to do wrong.


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## Bronte (23 Nov 2017)

Delboy said:


> From listening to Paddy O'Gorman's coverage of the Courts on the Sean O'Rourke show every week, it appears that only a tiny minority are actually stupid enough to pay the fines imposed.
> Most are driven to jail, registered, given a meal and a bus ticket back to whence they came. All on the same day. It's seen as a day out by many.



A lot of those cases that Paddy O'Gorman covers about women being brought up to Mountjoy for a day seems a total waste of time for me.  The amount of police time, court time, legal time, prison time, for a fine of a couple of hundred.  And people who clearly can't pay.  Crazy stuff.


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## Bronte (23 Nov 2017)

Brendan Burgess said:


> _
> *Milk-van owner,*
> *Finglas*
> €16,000.
> his van had done 350 passages on the motorway _



No way is that guy paying any fine.  And the judge knows it.  He gave him a whopping fine for the headlines.  So the optics look good.


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## odyssey06 (23 Nov 2017)

Bronte said:


> A lot of those cases that Paddy O'Gorman covers about women being brought up to Mountjoy for a day seems a total waste of time for me.  The amount of police time, court time, legal time, prison time, for a fine of a couple of hundred.  And people who clearly can't pay.  Crazy stuff.



That does seem crazy, but nor should they get a free pass to avoid any laws or regulations or contracts to which there are fines attached ... There have to be consequences for all citizens.


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## Delboy (23 Nov 2017)

The fines should come out of any welfare payments they get, all to be collected in 12 months max.
That would focus a few minds


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## Delboy (23 Nov 2017)

Bronte said:


> A lot of those cases that Paddy O'Gorman covers about women being brought up to Mountjoy for a day seems a total waste of time for me.  The amount of police time, court time, legal time, prison time, for a fine of a couple of hundred.  And people who clearly can't pay.  Crazy stuff.


As they say in The Wire, it's all part of 'the game'


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## Bronte (23 Nov 2017)

odyssey06 said:


> That does seem crazy, but nor should they get a free pass to avoid any laws or regulations or contracts to which there are fines attached ... There have to be consequences for all citizens.



Free pass, the people Paddy talks to don't get no free pass.  Seem like desperate people to me.  Most of them didn't pay as they had other priorities like food and clothing.  I see no point hounding such people, particularly when it means it will cost taxpayers for the expense of the revolving door in Mountjoy and the added stress to the families involved.


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## Bronte (23 Nov 2017)

Delboy said:


> The fines should come out of any welfare payments they get, all to be collected in 12 months max.
> That would focus a few minds



You can't take it out of welfare as welfare is at a minimum level to live on.  It would also costs a lot to administer.  Only person ending up paying then is the taxpayer.  Unless you had a streamlined system and you'd dock someone say a fiver a week for a year until the TV licence fine or whatever was paid off.


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## odyssey06 (23 Nov 2017)

Bronte said:


> Free pass, the people Paddy talks to don't get no free pass.  Seem like desperate people to me.  Most of them didn't pay as they had other priorities like food and clothing.  I see no point hounding such people, particularly when it means it will cost taxpayers for the expense of the revolving door in Mountjoy and the added stress to the families involved.



I'm not sure where you are going with this, do we exempt them from all legislation and laws where fines can be used as punishment?

Does Paddy talk to people whose fines are for road traffic offences? Littering? Public order offences?
The desperate people you describe don't seem to be the kind of person who racks up hundreds of unpaid tolls on a motorway?

What if the reason they were fined is because their behaviour was causing stress to other people???

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/e...ffences/public_order_offenses_in_ireland.html


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## T McGibney (23 Nov 2017)

odyssey06 said:


> I'm not sure where you are going with this, do we exempt them from all legislation and laws where fines can be used as punishment?
> 
> Does Paddy talk to people whose fines are for road traffic offences? Littering? Public order offences?
> The desperate people you describe don't seem to be the kind of person who racks up hundreds of unpaid tolls on a motorway?
> ...



The problem with increasingly burdensome laws and regulations is that there is a significant minority of vulnerable people out there whom are barely able to cope with the attendant responsibilities to society, owing to mental or physical ill-health, intellectual weaknesses, or other difficulties.

The more such laws and regulations are imposed, the more these people will struggle. Even an apparently routine chore like having an NCT done can drive certain people to literal despair.

The M50 toll system is grand for the 95% of us who are fortunate enough to to have basic self-organisational skills, not so good for those who lack them.


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## cremeegg (23 Nov 2017)

T McGibney said:


> Even an apparently routine chore like having an NCT done can drive certain people to literal despair.



Should such people be driving ? Surely if someone lacks basic self-organisation skills to the extent that getting the NCT drives them to literal despair, they are unlikely to be suitable to be in charge of a ton of metal going at 50kph.


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## T McGibney (23 Nov 2017)

cremeegg said:


> Should such people be driving ? Surely if someone lacks basic self-organisation skills to the extent that getting the NCT drives them to literal despair, they are unlikely to be suitable to be in charge of a ton of metal going at 50kph.


So if someone suffers episodes of depression they shouldn't be driving, even though they have passed the same test and have the same licence and insurance as you and I? Maybe we should go back decades and start locking them up in secure institutions? Nice social empathy there.


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## cremeegg (23 Nov 2017)

MrEarl said:


> Cremeegg,
> 
> For the absolute avoidance of doubt, when I mentioned "can't pay" I meant it in it's true sense.



But there is no generally accepted definition of "can't pay". Does it mean that someone doesn't have the money, or would you include someone who doesn't have the money for the fine and food, or would you allow that and draw the line at someone who doesn't have the money for the fine and food and clothes. And shoes and schoolbooks, and a doctors appointment.

There is no such thing as "can't pay" in it's true sense. Just different standards.




MrEarl said:


> Anyone worth their salt would go through a person's bank statements and credit card statements thoroughly, then even go and hire a private investigator, before accepting that a person genuinely can't pay.  It's not hard to see what cars are in a driveway, what schools the kids are going to, what the people are doing socially etc. Anyone found to be telling lies should be dealt with most severely.



That would cost far more than most fines.


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## Purple (23 Nov 2017)

A day in the "audience" of a district court is very educational.
You'll see lots of people who don't have the skills (social or educational) to function and interact with mainstream society.


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## cremeegg (23 Nov 2017)

T McGibney said:


> So if someone suffers episodes of depression they shouldn't be driving, even though they have passed the same test and have the same licence and insurance as you and I? Maybe we should go back decades and start locking them up in secure institutions? Nice social empathy there.



I find the process of getting an NCT stressful, though not to the point of literal despair. It seems to me that someone who does might also find the stresses of driving, traffic, lights, drivers that cut you up, people busy putting on lipstick etc. so stressful that they would be a danger to themselves and others. 

There isn't much social empath in allowing people perform tasks that are beyond them.


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## cremeegg (23 Nov 2017)

Purple said:


> A day in the "audience" of a district court is very educational.
> You'll see lots of people who don't have the skills (social or educational) to function and interact with mainstream society.



*Some* of these people are that way because nothing has ever been demanded of them. It is common in schools to see less demanded of kids who come from what the teachers see as difficult backgrounds. It kind of stands in their way of achieving.


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## Purple (23 Nov 2017)

cremeegg said:


> Should such people be driving ? Surely if someone lacks basic self-organisation skills to the extent that getting the NCT drives them to literal despair, they are unlikely to be suitable to be in charge of a ton of metal going at 50kph.


What if they are among the 18% of adults who are functionally illiterate? Given that in 2009 1 in 5 15 year old boys was functionally illiterate (the most recent data I could find) I don't see that figure improving any time soon. 
That doesn't mean they can't drive but it does make form filling difficult.


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## T McGibney (23 Nov 2017)

cremeegg said:


> I find the process of getting an NCT stressful, though not to the point of literal despair. It seems to me that someone who does might also find the stresses of driving, traffic, lights, drivers that cut you up, people busy putting on lipstick etc. so stressful that they would be a danger to themselves and others.
> 
> There isn't much social empath in allowing people perform tasks that are beyond them.



Nor in your setting yourself up to abitrarily judge these people.


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## cremeegg (23 Nov 2017)

Purple said:


> What if they are among the 18% of adults who are functionally illiterate? Given that in 2009 1 in 5 15 year old boys was functionally illiterate (the most recent data I could find) I don't see that figure improving any time soon.
> That doesn't mean they can't drive but it does make form filling difficult.



Yes it all starts in school.

I dont recall there being many forms to be filled in connection with the NCT


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## T McGibney (23 Nov 2017)

cremeegg said:


> Yes it all starts in school.
> 
> I dont recall there being many forms to be filled in connection with the NCT



 What documents do you have to bring with you to an NCT centre before they'll test your car?


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## cremeegg (23 Nov 2017)

Who is judging people.



T McGibney said:


> The problem with increasingly burdensome laws and regulations is that there is a significant minority of vulnerable people out there whom are barely able to cope with the attendant responsibilities to society, owing to mental or physical ill-health, intellectual weaknesses, or other difficulties.



i am merely saying that IF people are unable to cope with an NCT perhaps they are also unable to cope with driving.


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## Purple (23 Nov 2017)

cremeegg said:


> *Some* of these people are that way because nothing has ever been demanded of them. It is common in schools to see less demanded of kids who come from what the teachers see as difficult backgrounds. It kind of stands in their way of achieving.


There are very few people from "good" areas in district courts.

We need to stop talking about socially deprived areas or economic black spots. What defines those areas is that they are educational black-spots. Everything else flows from that. We also need to stop talking about how many people go to third level from those areas as if that is somehow the root cause of anything. We need to look at their educational attainment and attendance between the ages of 5 and 10.


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## cremeegg (23 Nov 2017)

T McGibney said:


> What documents do you have to bring with you to an NCT centre before they'll test your car?



I dont recall. However I am sure that I didn't have to complete them myself.


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## Purple (23 Nov 2017)

cremeegg said:


> Yes it all starts in school.
> 
> I dont recall there being many forms to be filled in connection with the NCT


Are you suggesting that interacting with the State/ officialdom is the same when you can't read of write?


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## T McGibney (23 Nov 2017)

cremeegg said:


> I dont recall. However I am sure that I didn't have to complete them myself.


Were you able to read them?


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## cremeegg (23 Nov 2017)

Purple said:


> There are very few people from "good" areas in district courts.
> 
> We need to stop talking about socially deprived areas or economic black spots.



Well which is it. Either we can talk about "good" areas and "socially derived" areas or we can't.

I wouldn't know. Its largely a Dublin thing. In many country areas all the kids go to the one school.




Purple said:


> What defines those areas is that they are educational black-spots. Everything else flows from that. We also need to stop talking about how many people go to third level from those areas as if that is somehow the root cause of anything. We need to look at their educational attainment and attendance between the ages of 5 and 10.



I absolutely agree.

I am not happy that children who attend schools classified as DEIS get more taxpayers money spent on their education than my kids do. 

In fact one of my children went to a school refused DEIS funding because it did not meet certain criteria. This refusal was accepted for 10 years until a new Principal was appointed. When he investigated he discovered that the school secretary had been entering incorrect data on a particular return. The school would have qualified if the information had been correctly entered. Second level education in this country is a mess.


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## cremeegg (23 Nov 2017)

T McGibney said:


> Were you able to read them?


Yes.

I can also read stop signs, yield signs etc. All of which I would have thought was necessary to drive safely.


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## T McGibney (23 Nov 2017)

cremeegg said:


> Yes.
> 
> I can also read stop signs, yield signs etc. All of which I would have thought was necessary to drive safely.


Are you suggesting that someone who is functionally illiterate can't tell the difference between a stop sign and a yield sign?


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## cremeegg (23 Nov 2017)

Dont you have to be reasonably literate to pass the Driver Theory test.


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## odyssey06 (23 Nov 2017)

T McGibney said:


> So if someone suffers episodes of depression they shouldn't be driving, even though they have passed the same test and have the same licence and insurance as you and I? Maybe we should go back decades and start locking them up in secure institutions? Nice social empathy there.



If they are not capable of independent living it sounds like they should be in an institution or some form of shared care in the community facility. If they are capable of independent living then they must obey all the same laws as any other citizen.

One of the reasons why we have "increasingly burdensome laws and regulations" is because there is a significant cohort of people who don't seem capable of observing norms (such as not littering or staggering around drunk screaming at 3 in the morning), so what was once a norm now becomes a law.


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## T McGibney (23 Nov 2017)

cremeegg said:


> Dont you have to be reasonably literate to pass the Driver Theory test.


Not necessarily.
[broken link removed]


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## T McGibney (23 Nov 2017)

odyssey06 said:


> If they are not capable of independent living it sounds like they should be in an institution or some form of shared care in the community facility.



I just hope you never have a bad episode in your own life.



odyssey06 said:


> One of the reasons why we have "increasingly burdensome laws and regulations" is because there is a significant cohort of people who don't seem capable of observing norms (such as not littering or staggering around drunk screaming at 3 in the morning), so what was once a norm now becomes a law.



Social disorder and drunkenness has nothing to do with social incapacity or isolation. The laws against social disorder are clearly not increasingly burdensome either.


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## odyssey06 (23 Nov 2017)

T McGibney said:


> I just hope you don't have a bad episode in your own life.



The reason we have laws and fines is that when someone is having a bad episode, they don't get into an unsafe car over the limit on drink, drugs or medication, and cause an accident that means their 'bad episode' affects more than just themselves.


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## T McGibney (23 Nov 2017)

odyssey06 said:


> The reason we have laws and fines is that when someone is having a bad episode, they don't get into an unsafe car over the limit on drink, drugs or medication, and cause an accident that means their 'bad episode' affects more than just themselves.


Except none of this is about road safety nor about public disorder nor drunkenness. 

Do read back please before you drag this off topic.


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## Purple (23 Nov 2017)

cremeegg said:


> I am not happy that children who attend schools classified as DEIS get more taxpayers money spent on their education than my kids do.
> 
> In fact one of my children went to a school refused DEIS funding because it did not meet certain criteria. This refusal was accepted for 10 years until a new Principal was appointed. When he investigated he discovered that the school secretary had been entering incorrect data on a particular return. The school would have qualified if the information had been correctly entered. Second level education in this country is a mess.


I am happy about it, in fact I'd like to see more spent. Better that than what will be spent on welfare and courts and "free" legal aid and possibly prison for the rest of their life. Better that we spend more on early education and that person spend their adult life working and paying taxes. 
All to that the desire to see my fellow citizens have something approaching a level playing field at the start of their journey through life.


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## odyssey06 (23 Nov 2017)

I dont know what some people are proposing here. The opposite of benefit of clergy? Fail a literacy test fines dont apply???


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## Purple (23 Nov 2017)

What's benefit of clergy?
Are you talking about the ancient exemption from the law they enjoyed?


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## odyssey06 (23 Nov 2017)

Purple said:


> What's benefit of clergy?
> Are you talking about the ancient exemption from the law they enjoyed?



From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benefit_of_clergy
_At first, in order to plead the benefit of clergy, one had to appear before the court tonsured and otherwise wearing ecclesiastical dress. Over time, this proof of clergy-hood was replaced by a literacy test: defendants demonstrated their clerical status by reading from the Latin Bible. This opened the door to literate lay defendants also claiming the benefit of clergy. In 1351, under Edward III, this loophole was formalised in statute, and the *benefit of clergy was officially extended to all who could read*... It could save one's neck by transferring one's case from a secular court, where hanging was a likely sentence, to an ecclesiastical court, where both the methods of trial and the sentences given were more lenient
_


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## Firefly (23 Nov 2017)

Bronte said:


> No way is that guy paying any fine.  And the judge knows it.  He gave him a whopping fine for the headlines.  So the optics look good.



I often wonder in situations like this where someone will not pay should the time in prison be linked to time in jail at the Minimum Wage level? In this case, the judge has fined the individual 16,000. Dividing the national minimum wage of 9.25 into this, the individual would spend 72 days in jail, or alternatively, just pay the fine.


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## MrEarl (23 Nov 2017)

cremeegg said:


> But there is no generally accepted definition of "can't pay". Does it mean that someone doesn't have the money, or would you include someone who doesn't have the money for the fine and food, or would you allow that and draw the line at someone who doesn't have the money for the fine and food and clothes. And shoes and schoolbooks, and a doctors appointment.
> 
> There is no such thing as "can't pay" in it's true sense. Just different standards.



It's that sort of nonsense that has facilitated so many dishonest people to date .... can't pay means that to pay would result in the person not having enough money for basic food, light, heat and shelter for themselves or their immediate dependents.  Anything more than that, is an optional luxury and does not prohibit ability to pay so it then becomes won't pay.



> ....That would cost far more than most fines.



Short term yes, long term no ... it's an investment to illustrate that those looking to defraud the system won't be let get away with it.  In time, the actual knowledge that an investigator would be hired to check up on someone, should be enough of a deter most people from making false claims and particularly, if the findings result in them incurring further punishment (including the costs associated with the investigation).


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## cremeegg (24 Nov 2017)

MrEarl said:


> It's that sort of nonsense that has facilitated so many dishonest people to date .... can't pay means that to pay would result in the person not having enough money for basic food, light, heat and shelter for themselves or their immediate dependents.  Anything more than that, is an optional luxury and does not prohibit ability to pay so it then becomes won't pay.



Well I am sorry you think I am talking nonsense. I think you are indulging in wishful thinking.

It would be great to be able to neatly separate those who "can't pay" from those who "wont pay". In reality that isn't possible. Instead of two groups there is a continuous spectrum.

Just from your points above, what is basic shelter. Should a family give up a luxurious home, to move to basic shelter. Who would provide that basic shelter, it might well cost more. Who are immediate dependants, adult children, adult children with special needs. What about transport costs, would the family have to stay all day within walking distance of their basic shelter. What if the live in the country.

These are not trivial questions, they are practical impossibilities to dividing "can't pay" from "wont pay"


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## james j (24 Nov 2017)

Toll is overcharged fines for not paying by 8pm following day a joke. Automating got rid of their staff and put more onous  on driver prices should have come down !! Good luck to them


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## odyssey06 (24 Nov 2017)

T McGibney said:


> Except none of this is about road safety nor about public disorder nor drunkenness.
> Do read back please before you drag this off topic.



They all relate to using fines as a means of enforcing legal obligations.

If the tolling system is over complicated, simplify it.

But eventually, it will all comes back to this... either you're willing to jail people who do not pay the fines levied on them, or you are not.
You could give them community service. But what if they don't turn up? What if they turn up and act the maggot?
At some point, the ultimate sanction of imprisonment has to be on the table.


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## T McGibney (24 Nov 2017)

odyssey06 said:


> If the tolling system is over complicated, simplify it.



I'd abolish tolls and stick a few cent extra on the diesel.  That would cost me in net terms but tolling systems are expensive to administer and incentivise users onto slower and more dangerous side roads.



odyssey06 said:


> At some point, the ultimate sanction of imprisonment has to be on the table.


The jails are already overflowing. As with the TV licence, another reason for getting rid of tolls.


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## MrEarl (24 Nov 2017)

cremeegg said:


> Well I am sorry you think I am talking nonsense. I think you are indulging in wishful thinking. ....



I meant nonsense in terms of permitting endless "negotiation" on simple English, it wasn't intended to be personal and sorry if it came across that way.

Yes, to an extent it is wishful thinking - thinking that we might actually stop flapping about and start being a bit more decisive in this country, to put things right.

How about the Insolvency Service's [broken link removed], would you see that as answering the questions you raise, to give a divide between can't pay and won't pay ?


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## Bronte (27 Nov 2017)

T McGibney said:


> The M50 toll system is grand for the 95% of us who are fortunate enough to to have basic self-organisational skills, not so good for those who lack them.



While I consider myself one of the 95% I think it's the craziest system ever to have all these mad signs on the M50 telling the foreigners there is a toll up ahead, and they should stop and take down the website address to pay the toll online.


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## Bronte (27 Nov 2017)

T McGibney said:


> What documents do you have to bring with you to an NCT centre before they'll test your car?




Does the reminder (is there a reminder in Ireland) not list the documents you should bring?  I get a post card in the post a month before I do my one here and its got a list of the documents (5) and a list of thing to have done (9).


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## Bronte (27 Nov 2017)

cremeegg said:


> Dont you have to be reasonably literate to pass the Driver Theory test.



My husband and mother never did one of those !


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## Purple (27 Nov 2017)

Bronte said:


> My husband and mother never did one of those !


I'm in my mid 40's and the theory test was the guy in the test center pointing at signs and asking me what they were for.


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## Leo (27 Nov 2017)

Bronte said:


> Does the reminder (is there a reminder in Ireland) not list the documents you should bring?



They recommend you bring the VLC, but will only ask for it if there is an issue with the Vehicle Identification Number stamped on the chassis and the one on record. The only document actually required is a proof of identity (driving licence) of whoever is presenting the car for test. And remember, this does not have to be the registered owner.


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## T McGibney (28 Nov 2017)

Bronte said:


> Does the reminder (is there a reminder in Ireland) not list the documents you should bring?  I get a post card in the post a month before I do my one here and its got a list of the documents (5) and a list of thing to have done (9).


Yes, but you can read.


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