# Architect plans way over budget



## Aliwag (18 Jul 2022)

We engaged an architect to design an extension to our semi-d., to include a two-storey side extension and a rear ground floor extension and a garden room for working from home. 

We set an initial budget of 275k all in. After the initial consultation the architect sent us a fee proposal and estimated the cost of the project would be 300k ex VAT and fees. We agreed to borrow 100K from a family member and increased our budget to 375k all in. 

Architect designed beautiful plans, in many ways much nicer than we had expected (e.g. bedrooms larger, open-plan space very large, downstairs bathroom huge, walk-in wardrobe included etc.), we were delighted, went through some small changes (moving doorways, swapping utility and bathroom, etc.). The only thing we added was an extra 4.5 sq meter extension at the front of the house, which they estimated would cost 10-15k. 

We were ready to progress to the next stage of the process - planning - when the architect told us the current plans are going to cost 400k ex VAT and fees and this doesn't include the garden room, which will be another 50k ex VAT and fees. So, well over 500k total. We don't have this money. We discussed by phone and they're saying we'll have to lose a bedroom to get under budget but we need that bedroom, it's one of the main reasons for doing the extension. 

They've now billed us for the work to date. What should we do? Are we within our rights to ask them to go back to the drawing board and design something we can afford?


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## Pinoy adventure (18 Jul 2022)

Budget should be flexible with 10/20% either way and s/he should work within the selected budget.however prices of supply has shot up so s/he would need too recheck the prices given.


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## PaddyBloggit (18 Jul 2022)

Aliwag said:


> Are we within our rights to ask them to go back to the drawing board and design something we can afford?



Yes... but you'll pay them for the service.

You do realise that everything building related has gone up massively price wise?

You are lucky that you haven't started building. Imagine the mess you'd be in. If you want to progress, you'll have to revise your expectations (downwards).

To me, it looks as if you were at the pin of your collar with the budget you had when you had to borrow an additional €100k from a family member.

Re. the garden room... there are lots of temporary, cheaper alternatives out there.

e.g. https://www.donedeal.ie/gardenfurniture-for-sale/log-cabin/31669059

.... comes in at €5,500 plus VAT (no affiliation with company)

More by the same company here => https://www.donedeal.ie/all?userId=4198598

There are lots of other companies out there that do similar. No need to break the bank for the garden room/office.

If you keep below a certain square meterage, you'll not need planning for it.

I'd be focussing my main budget on the house... cut your cloth to the new measurements.


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## Leo (18 Jul 2022)

This is a tricky one, and much will depend on the wording of the contract between you. 



Aliwag said:


> We discussed by phone and they're saying we'll have to lose a bedroom to get under budget but we need that bedroom, it's one of the main reasons for doing the extension.



As others have mentioned, materials and construction prices are rising quickly, it sounds like there is a potential conflict between what you want and what the budget allows. If you outlined a minimum set of requirements for the work, then this would generally trump the budgetary constraint.


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## Mamamia22 (18 Jul 2022)

An extortionate price. Personally I’d wait. There has to be another way. Tying into this level of debt for an extension is madness. What interest will you pay on top ? Don’t rush into this. Take your time and get a few different quotes. I know someone who did a huge extension under two years ago for under 200k. And even that looked too much money at the time. Are you sure you want to stay there ? Would it make more sense to move ?


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## Sue Ellen (18 Jul 2022)

Hi Aliwag,

Welcome to AAM.

Maybe the whole thing is another Daniel O'Donnell/Dermot Bannon situation 

In days of old Dermot Bannon constantly went way over budget and the people mainly just borrowed more to suit that situation.  In the more recent episodes of Room to Improve he seems to have got the message that he needs to curtail his spending on their behalf.  

Looks as if there is an element of this to your plans but also Covid increases are most likely playing a big part too.


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## elcato (18 Jul 2022)

Is the architect employing a quantity surveyor and/or is it his builder who is doing the job ? No disrespect to QAs but they do come up with some vast estimates.


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## Blackrock1 (18 Jul 2022)

Mamamia22 said:


> An extortionate price. Personally I’d wait. There has to be another way. Tying into this level of debt for an extension is madness. What interest will you pay on top ? Don’t rush into this. Take your time and get a few different quotes. I know someone who did a huge extension under two years ago for under 200k. And even that looked too much money at the time. Are you sure you want to stay there ? Would it make more sense to move ?


clearly wasnt too much money with the benefit of hindsight


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## Aliwag (18 Jul 2022)

Hi all. Thanks for the replies. I want to clarify a few points.

The architect's estimate of 300k ex VAT was from late March. We made it clear at that point that our max budget was 375 incl VAT and fees. Then they did the plans (which included things we hadn't asked for like double bedrooms where we had only asked for single, a full bath downstairs where we had asked for a cloak room, a walk-in wardrobe that wasn't on our list of requirements) and we had a couple of rounds of moving doors, discussing window types and kitchen position etc. Then in late June (3 months after the estimate of 300k) they told us that they estimate the build cost to be 450 ex VAT. I know prices are going up but not by 50% every 3 months.

We are not to the pin of our collar. Our hope was to do the whole thing without borrowing. When we were discussing topping up our mortgage to get to 375k (300k ex VAT), a relative offered to loan us money instead. We also have other non-house savings. The thing is it doesn't make sense from a financial perspective to pump 500k into this house - we'd lose 300k+ if we were to sell. Now, I understand that there is a loss when you renovate but this is too much of a loss for us to feel comfortable about it.

We haven't signed a contract. The architect kept forgetting to bring it to our meetings.

We can't really wait. We need the extra bedrooms ASAP. If we can't make this house work, we'll move but we love the location and the community and our kids are friends with all the neighbour kids so it would be a big loss.

Architect is not employing a QS but has suggested that we get one. We are reluctant to spend the money on a QS when it seems there is no chance of us proceeding with these plans. We'd rather the architect designed plans that are closer to our budget and then we'll get costings from a QS.



PaddyBloggit said:


> Yes... but you'll pay them for the service.


Do you think we should pay full price for plans that are completely outside our budget and that we can't use? I'm not being sarcastic and I have never not paid for a service in my life but I can't help feeling that we've been had. They knew our budget and designed something twice what we originally wanted to spend and 1.5 times the budget we'd agreed a couple of months previously.


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## elcato (18 Jul 2022)

Aliwag said:


> Do you think we should pay full price for plans that are completely outside our budget and that we can't use? I'm not being sarcastic and I have never not paid for a service in my life but I can't help feeling that we've been had. They knew our budget and designed something twice what we originally wanted to spend and 1.5 times the budget we'd agreed a couple of months previously.


Well they did as requested by producing the original and you said yourself you were delighted and asked for a jig around. Unfortunately prices have rocketed. As regards payment, negotiate negotiate negotiate.


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## jpd (18 Jul 2022)

When we renovated a house in 2010 we had a similar problem - the architect was fully aware of the budget but drew up plans which he said would be on budget. We applied for and got planning permission.

Then we got the plans costed and the cost was 33% above our budget. He had assumed that we would find financing for the overrun.

We said no way and had him draw up a revised set - reapplied for planning, renovated and came in on budget but 6 months later than we had hoped for initially

Admittedly, the first lot included a lot of stuff we had not asked for but we accepted his assurance that it could be done for the budget we had - Ha! Ha!

He didn;t gt any extra for drawing up the 2nd set of plans as it had been quite clear that our budget was fixed and not to be exceeded


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## Aliwag (18 Jul 2022)

elcato said:


> Well they did as requested by producing the original and you said yourself you were delighted and asked for a jig around. Unfortunately prices have rocketed. As regards payment, negotiate negotiate negotiate.


The plans were presented to us as if they were within our budget. So yes, we were delighted to think that we could afford all double bedrooms, a walk in wardrobe etc etc. But we can’t (as we had originally expected) so now we have plans we can’t use.


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## Brendan Burgess (18 Jul 2022)

Aliwag said:


> The architect's estimate of 300k ex VAT was from late March. We made it clear at that point that our max budget was 375 incl VAT and fees.



If this was made clear, then the architect should not have added stuff which would increase the price. 

If what you wanted was not achievable within that budget, he should have told you that up-front.

Brendan


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## PaddyBloggit (18 Jul 2022)

Aliwag said:


> Do you think we should pay full price for plans that are completely outside our budget and that we can't use? I'm not being sarcastic and I have never not paid for a service in my life but I can't help feeling that we've been had. They knew our budget and designed something twice what we originally wanted to spend and 1.5 times the budget we'd agreed a couple of months previously.



Your follow up posts have presented more clarity.

I certainly would not be paying for a service that went over a max budget, which had been clearly told to them.

I'd be asking them to do as agreed... produce a plan that can be fulfilled within budget.

And I certainly wouldn't be signing any architect's contract that bound me to their 'run away' plans.


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## jasdpace@gmail. (18 Jul 2022)

OP,

As far as I can see you have a verbal agreement with an architect that you would pay him for the delivery of specific designs. He has failed to deliver designs in line with your specifications. On a personal level, a number of years ago, an architect verbally agreed to source a builder and supervise work for me - again, he somehow always managed to forget to bring a written contract. Anyway, he employed a complete cowboy and badly supervised his work. Why should one pay for a service that's useless? I took the trouble of explaining to him all his performance deficits.......I don't think he fully appreciated the candour of my feedback!  It was the only time ever that I refused to pay for a service.


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## noproblem (18 Jul 2022)

Don't bother asking if you don't want to but what are the Architect's fees for his design, etc and how has he priced his fee?


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## Aliwag (18 Jul 2022)

noproblem said:


> Don't bother asking if you don't want to but what are the Architect's fees for his design, etc and how has he priced his fee?


They’re looking for 5k right now. The total estimated fee is a little over €20k plus VAT. The fee is calculated as a percentage of the build cost but it’s paid in stages (25% for design, 15% for planning, 30% for tender, 30% for build).


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## Brendan Burgess (18 Jul 2022)

Any building project will be very stressful.

If you don't have confidence in your architect, it will be even more stressful.

You should sit down with him and tease it out. 

If you are not perfectly happy, then walk away.  It's messy and it will delay things, but overall, it will save you a lot of stress.

Brendan


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## noproblem (18 Jul 2022)

Aliwag said:


> They’re looking for 5k right now. The total estimated fee is a little over €20k plus VAT. The fee is calculated as a percentage of the build cost but it’s paid in stages (25% for design, 15% for planning, 30% for tender, 30% for build).


Thank you. The price he charged is not excessive, obviously doing a lot more than just the design. Maybe a bit of leeway there but not much I would say. 
JPD on post No 11 has some good points in his post, but they may not be relevant in your case as it seems you had no contract. You'll have to cut out some things and the garden room looks like it could be a good place to start.


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## DazedInPontoon (18 Jul 2022)

I can't imagine why the estimates are so high compared to your budget...


Aliwag said:


> The fee is calculated as a percentage of the build cost


Ah.


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## jpd (18 Jul 2022)

Just to add, that after our first plan was found to be over-budget, we did strongly think of getting a new architect but after a frank discussion with him, we decided to continue as we were reluctant to start from scratch all over agin. It worked out well at the second serve, sorry, attempt


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## cremeegg (19 Jul 2022)

This thread is a useful insight into the business model used by many architects. 

Just one point I have some experience with. Engage a QS directly yourself. They charge hundreds not thousands. Money very well spent.


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## Leo (19 Jul 2022)

Mamamia22 said:


> An extortionate price.


We really don't have enough information here to make that judgement.


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## DublinHead54 (19 Jul 2022)

I would be concerned that you set a budget of 275k and the architect has been engaged to design, tender and PM has designed something that is now 500k (presuming excluding a kitchen). 

I am not an expert, but I don't see how the variation can all be put down to material and wage increases. 

On the flip side, I have engaged with Architects recently who have not given cost estimates and ask I employ a QS and that they essentially just do the drawings.


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## Aliwag (19 Jul 2022)

Thanks all for the comments. I'm going to go back to the architect and politely tell them the plans are too far over budget for us to proceed without a redesign. 



Leo said:


> We really don't have enough information here to make that judgement.



The estimate is based on a price of 2.5k per square meter in the new parts of the building and 1.5k per square meter for the existing house. That's ex. VAT and fees. Are those prices what you would expect these days? I have seen everything from 1.6k including VAT to 3k without so I just have no idea what's a reasonable price. We're in Galway city if that makes a difference.



Dublinbay12 said:


> I would be concerned that you set a budget of 275k and the architect has been engaged to design, tender and PM has designed something that is now 500k (presuming excluding a kitchen).
> 
> I am not an expert, but I don't see how the variation can all be put down to material and wage increases.
> 
> On the flip side, I have engaged with Architects recently who have not given cost estimates and ask I employ a QS and that they essentially just do the drawings.



That is our concern exactly. It is just so far over budget and they've tried to say it's increasing prices etc. but 50% in 3 months is not just inflation. I do accept that the plan ended up more complicated structurally than they had anticipated but I would have expected them to discuss this with us rather than just ploughing ahead with a design that we can't afford. I've read back over my emails and I really made it clear that 375k was a stretch for us so how they thought 500k+ would work I just don't know. 

The figures they estimated did include sanitary ware, kitchen etc,. but the amount assigned was not large (12k for kitchen and utility). I don't think this would cover a whole kitchen once appliances are included.


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## Leo (20 Jul 2022)

Aliwag said:


> I have seen everything from 1.6k including VAT to 3k without so I just have no idea what's a reasonable price. We're in Galway city if that makes a difference.


A lot will come down to the specifications and materials. Access challenges will add to the cost. With that budget, appointing a good QS will ensure you are getting good value for money. An architects budget estimate will be just that, have you spoken to contractors about getting a price for the job or does the architect contract include full management?


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## DublinHead54 (20 Jul 2022)

Aliwag said:


> The figures they estimated did include sanitary ware, kitchen etc,. but the amount assigned was not large (12k for kitchen and utility). I don't think this would cover a whole kitchen once appliances are included.



12k for a kitchen and utility seems too little to budget for especially on a project costing 500k.

You could build a brand new house for 500k.


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## irishguy (25 Jul 2022)

@Aliwag thanks for sharing the details it's interesting/scary to see these costs, we are considering doing a job also. 
Could you share the sqm of new build and refurbishment.

I assume with that level of budget you have specified to bugest for higher end finishes and A rating the existing house?

Also does his budget allow for flooring/painting/landscaping etc or just construction?


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## AlbacoreA (25 Jul 2022)

Leo said:


> We really don't have enough information here to make that judgement.



In fairness, we have enough information to make all sorts of judgements. 

For me its the utter disregard of the clients instruction would be a red flag for me.


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## Aliwag (25 Jul 2022)

irishguy said:


> @Aliwag thanks for sharing the details it's interesting/scary to see these costs, we are considering doing a job also.
> Could you share the sqm of new build and refurbishment.
> 
> I assume with that level of budget you have specified to bugest for higher end finishes and A rating the existing house?
> ...



The existing house is 100sqm including a falling-down conservatory of 10sqm, which will be demolished. Extension is 90ishsqm. So total at the end is around 180sqm. The proposed layout does require removing the back wall at ground floor level and putting several holes in the side wall too and the structural requirements (steel, propping walls etc) do contribute to the high cost.

This quote does not include particularly high end finishes - it’s for pvc windows, red deal stairs, standard kitchen, etc. It does include flooring (pc sum cost of €80/sqm) and painting but not landscaping. Re, energy efficiency, this is the cost of building the extension and upgrading the existing house in line with building regs only but does include digging up the screed and insulating above the existing slab. It would be a B2 at best I think.


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## Leo (26 Jul 2022)

AlbacoreA said:


> In fairness, we have enough information to make all sorts of judgements.


So what do you think would be a fair price for the design and specification requested?



AlbacoreA said:


> For me its the utter disregard of the clients instruction would be a red flag for me.


It sounds like there were conflicting requirements here, perhaps the architect was given the impression that requirements and specification were more important than budget.


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## Leo (26 Jul 2022)

Aliwag said:


> It would be a B2 at best I think.


It will have to be B2 at worst or it won't be compliant!


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## AlbacoreA (26 Jul 2022)

Leo said:


> So what do you think would be a fair price for the design and specification requested?
> 
> 
> It sounds like there were conflicting requirements here, perhaps the architect was given the impression that requirements and specification were more important than budget.



The plans should be within budget. What's the point of setting a budget if its ignored. 

Architect exceeded his brief. Simple as that. Most people don't pay Architects to do impressions. (double pun intended).

So your paying for the Architects solution (vision) of the brief. Fair enough. But when his solution is vastly more expensive than the brief without satisfying it, they are on a ego trip.


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## irishguy (26 Jul 2022)

Thanks for the details. I'm not an expert by any means, but it's quite a lot of money to spend to remodel a house for the size & spec. If it was me personally I would be waiting for a while unless I really needed the extra space now, a gamble I know. I would also want to be sure I could sell it for the same/more than I am spending, taking into account overruns/rent/finishes etc.

It does seem the architect has gone outside his brief and I would have expected them to be very clear about such a huge overrun, as that would be a deal breaker for most people. They may have anticipated that the budget was more flexible than you said, I guess it's down to how much you trust them and if you don't I would cut my losses now.


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## Leo (26 Jul 2022)

AlbacoreA said:


> The plans should be within budget. What's the point of setting a budget if its ignored.
> 
> Architect exceeded his brief. Simple as that. Most people don't pay Architects to do impressions. (double pun intended).
> 
> So your paying for the Architects solution (vision) of the brief. Fair enough. But when his solution is vastly more expensive than the brief without satisfying it, they are on a ego trip.


You haven't clarified what information you saw here that confirmed that the price was extortionate?

I haven't seen the brief, perhaps you might share it with us?


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## AlbacoreA (26 Jul 2022)

Leo said:


> You haven't clarified what information you saw here that confirmed that the price was extortionate?
> 
> I haven't seen the brief, perhaps you might share it with us?



The OP comments both describe enough of the budget and brief to make that assessment. In my opinion.

I don't think you need to count every rivet to see a iceberg ahead. In my opinion.


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## Sarenco (26 Jul 2022)

Dublinbay12 said:


> You could build a brand new house for 500k.


To be fair, the proposed extension is bigger than the average Irish house!  And the job also involves the renovation of the existing property.

I have no expertise in this area but I do know of a number of jobs of this sort of scale in the leafier suburbs of Dublin that were carried out in recent times that cost well in excess of €500k.


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## AlbacoreA (26 Jul 2022)

Price is not a good metric on its own. There's location and quality and materials to consider. It's also a period of peak prices for labour and materials. Then there's the complexity. Start getting into weird geometry and non standard stuff. 

You don't want to have a bathroom fit for trump and be a bedroom short. 

In the current market you have to looking at the best bang for buck. Nothing is good value at the moment.


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## Leo (27 Jul 2022)

AlbacoreA said:


> The OP comments both describe enough of the budget and brief to make that assessment. In my opinion.
> 
> I don't think you need to count every rivet to see a iceberg ahead. In my opinion.


No, but without even a hint of the area of the proposed development, an opinion that a price is extortionate is clearly based on assumptions, and assumptions that are very much false in this instance.


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## AlbacoreA (27 Jul 2022)

Leo said:


> No, but without even a hint of the area of the proposed development, an opinion that a price is extortionate is clearly based on assumptions, and assumptions that are very much false in this instance.



The datum is not the area. But the initial quote and subsequent creep. Unless someone they managed to significantly upgrade the area from the first quotation to the last one.


275k Budget
300k + fees (architect estimate) - (max budget was 375 incl VAT and fees)
375k budget increased
390k 15k (extra spend approved) - more changes (made much nicer) (but  does not include particularly high end finishes)
400k + fees
450k + fees (not including outside room possibly and inside room unclear)

Extras not asked for.
single bedrooms changed to double bedrooms
Cloak room changed to a a full bath downstairs

New estimate lose a room to get back under budget (which budget?, which room?)
So we've gone from a 275k to 500k and probably no longer meet the brief in terms of rooms. Which is critical.

Creeping the costs to fill the budget and beyond is like a result of the  fee structure. (calculated as a percentage of the build cost).


At the end of the day its 300k stretched to 500k. That's before it even starts. We know from experience unforeseen things will crop during the build. 500k will not be the end of it. Its not viable unless cost isn't an issue.


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## Leo (27 Jul 2022)

AlbacoreA said:


> The datum is not the area. But the initial quote and subsequent creep.


The comment was very specific to just the price, and based on only the details in the OP.  It's ridiculous to make a value assertion based on that information.


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## AlbacoreA (27 Jul 2022)

Leo said:


> The comment was very specific to just the price, and based on only the details in the OP.  It's ridiculous to make a value assertion based on that information.



You're trying to defend the indefensible. 

Its an industry (and profession) that has a long and infamous history of blatant disregard for budget. 

https://www.askaboutmoney.com/threads/architect-produces-design-at-twice-budget.160075/


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## Leo (28 Jul 2022)

AlbacoreA said:


> You're trying to defend the indefensible.


I'm not, I'm simply saying it is impossible to say whether a price represents good value when you have no idea what the scale or specification of the work is. It's like saying 20k is poor value for a second hand car without knowing whether it's a 20 year old Micra or a 2 year old Ferrari.

What the OP might have wished to pay for the work does not mean the price quoted is extortionate. As it turns out, a price of 2.5k for new build and 1.5k for refurbishment work is quite reasonable.


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## jpd (28 Jul 2022)

The original question was about the inability of the architect to design a plan within the given budget not as to whether the design was good value or not


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## AlbacoreA (28 Jul 2022)

Leo said:


> I'm not, I'm simply saying it is impossible to say whether a price represents good value when you have no idea what the scale or specification of the work is. It's like saying 20k is poor value for a second hand car without knowing whether it's a 20 year old Micra or a 2 year old Ferrari.
> 
> What the OP might have wished to pay for the work does not mean the price quoted is extortionate. As it turns out, a price of 2.5k for new build and 1.5k for refurbishment work is quite reasonable.



For your analogy to be comparable you'd have to get a quotes for work on the same vehicle each time that constantly escalate. 

To the point at which you can no longer afford the work and it would make more sense to change the car the fix/upgrade it. 

The mechanic estimates now having completely blown (and ignored) your budget.


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## Leo (28 Jul 2022)

AlbacoreA said:


> For your analogy to be comparable you'd have to get a quotes for work on the same vehicle each time that constantly escalate.


No, the statement I responded to made no reference to escalating costs, just that the price quoted was 'outrageous'. You seemed to feel it was a fair statement to make at a point where no area of specifications were provided.


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## AlbacoreA (28 Jul 2022)

Leo said:


> No, the statement I responded to made no reference to escalating costs, just that the price quoted was 'outrageous'. You seemed to feel it was a fair statement to make at a point where no area of specifications were provided.



Consider then your saying the price has no context. Because you're ignoring the context of thread in which the post was made or my reply in its entirety. 

I'm done with this. We disagree. I'm moving on.


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## AlbacoreA (28 Jul 2022)

How do people think the OP should proceed from this point.


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## Leo (28 Jul 2022)

AlbacoreA said:


> Consider then your saying the price has no context. Because you're ignoring the context of thread in which the post was made or my reply in its entirety.


There was no context at the point the statement was made, just the opening post. A lot has been added since, but that wasn't available when the other poster declared the price was outrageous. Indeed, the detail added since has confirmed the price is actually reasonable.


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## Seagull (3 Aug 2022)

The price may be reasonable for what the architect has designed, but would you consider it reasonable of the architect to come up with plans that will cost nearly double the desired budget?


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## Leo (3 Aug 2022)

Seagull said:


> The price may be reasonable for what the architect has designed, but would you consider it reasonable of the architect to come up with plans that will cost nearly double the desired budget?


That's a different question, not whether the price quoted was extortionate for the proposed design.


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## Aliwag (4 Aug 2022)

Seagull said:


> The price may be reasonable for what the architect has designed, but would you consider it reasonable of the architect to come up with plans that will cost nearly double the desired budget?


This was the crux of my original question. And the extension of that is, is it reasonable for us to require the plans be at least roughly within the budget we set to be acceptable or should we expect to pay extra for a redesign? 

Anyway, no change in situation because we’ve been away but I’m hoping things can get back on track soon.


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## rustbucket (4 Aug 2022)

Aliwag said:


> This was the crux of my original question. And the extension of that is, is it reasonable for us to require the plans be at least roughly within the budget we set to be acceptable or should we expect to pay extra for a redesign?
> 
> Anyway, no change in situation because we’ve been away but I’m hoping things can get back on track soon.


It is not unreasonable to expect designs to be drawn up within or close to budget. I would have thought this would have been standard.

If you clearly specified your budget, and asked for designs within that budget then if the architect has not done that they should redo the plans.

Any major deviations from budget should have been discussed.


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## AlbacoreA (4 Aug 2022)

Be curious what happens now of the fees are a % of the build costs so he puts in work (time) commiserate with a 500k+ build then you scale  back (or rein it back to the original) the project back to 375k or thereabouts requiring a redesign which is effectively a lot more extra work for considerably less money. Return on time invested etc.

I assume when you say they've billed you already it's based on the highest estimated building costs to date. 

I assume if you ask them to redesign it they'll want that charged separately.


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## Aliwag (4 Aug 2022)

AlbacoreA said:


> Be curious what happens now of the fees are a % of the build costs so he puts in work (time) commiserate with a 500k+ build then you scale  back (or rein it back to the original) the project back to 375k or thereabouts requiring a redesign which is effectively a lot more extra work for considerably less money. Return on time invested etc.
> 
> I assume when you say they've billed you already it's based on the highest estimated building costs to date.
> 
> I assume if you ask them to redesign it they'll want that charged separately.


Well, they’ve only done the initial plans at this stage, not the planning permission or tender drawings, so hopefully not too much time has been wasted. The fees we agreed to were based on a build estimate of 300k ex VAT. It’s just that once they’d drawn up and presented the plans, they they revised their estimate of the build cost to be closer to 450k ex VAT. They have blamed inflation but it was only a couple of months later so that doesn’t explain it. We immediately made it clear that we could not proceed at that price so I doubt they were ever really expecting to get a % of 450k. 

The more I think about it the more unwilling I am to pay full whack for a redesign. If they had given us an estimate of 450k in March/April instead of 300k, we would not have proceeded.


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## Leo (4 Aug 2022)

Aliwag said:


> (e.g. bedrooms larger, open-plan space very large, downstairs bathroom huge, walk-in wardrobe included etc.),


Just out of interest, how much time was spent walking through the proposed design and some of these features?  To me the above indicates changes required to comply with the current building regs, particularly TG-M, but wondering if sufficient time was spent talking through all that.


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## Aliwag (4 Aug 2022)

Leo said:


> Just out of interest, how much time was spent walking through the proposed design and some of these features?  To me the above indicates changes required to comply with the current building regs, particularly TG-M, but wondering if sufficient time was spent talking through all that.


Building regs were not mentioned in relation to anything other than BER. However, I’ve just looked at the TG-M and there is no requirement for a full bathroom at ground level, all double bedrooms, or walk-in wardrobes. They did mention future proofing and having a part of the house that can be a downstairs en-suite bedroom but, while I can see that it’s important in a general sense, we are not going to sacrifice a bedroom for one of our kids now because there’s a chance we’ll need an accessible bathroom downstairs in the future.


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## Leo (5 Aug 2022)

Aliwag said:


> Building regs were not mentioned in relation to anything other than BER. However, I’ve just looked at the TG-M and there is no requirement for a full bathroom at ground level, all double bedrooms, or walk-in wardrobes. They did mention future proofing and having a part of the house that can be a downstairs en-suite bedroom but, while I can see that it’s important in a general sense, we are not going to sacrifice a bedroom for one of our kids now because there’s a chance we’ll need an accessible bathroom downstairs in the future.


You don't get to decide whether you need it now, regs aren't optional. The mandatory minimum dimensions for an accessible bedroom and bathroom on the ground floor are there to improve accessibility of the housing stock, improving choice for those in need of those facilities now and preparing in advance for those who will need them in the future.


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## Aliwag (5 Aug 2022)

Leo said:


> You don't get to decide whether you need it now, regs aren't optional. The mandatory minimum dimensions for an accessible bedroom and bathroom on the ground floor are there to improve accessibility of the housing stock, improving choice for those in need of those facilities now and preparing in advance for those who will need them in the future.


Ok but I never suggested that we wouldn’t comply with building regs? As I said, there is no requirement for a full downstairs bath in the regs.  In fact, by installing a downstairs wc we would bring ourselves into compliance with the regs (currently no downstairs loo). There is also no requirement for a downstairs room that can be an en-suite. This is something that was recommended by the architect. I understand about upgrading the housing stock and the value of accessibility in general (as I mentioned above) but it is difficult to do in our house which is a small semi-d. And even the regs recognise the fact that existing houses cannot always be made accessible easily.


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