# How much do social welfare recipients contribute to their housing costs?



## mathepac (6 Mar 2017)

"They have the same access to ... roughly the same housing, although in the Republic, a person on the dole is expected to contribute €30 a week towards their housing costs." sez Brendan, which is untrue and misleading.

A person qualifying for social housing is expected to pay the difference between the rent demanded by the private sector landlord and the locally approved HAP from the local authority or SW housing assistance, PLUS the €30 euro weekly minimum contribution.

For example, (Rent €140 pw) - (HAP  €102 pw) = €38 pw payable by SW recipient directly to the landlord (HAP is payable to landlord, SW housing assistance is not) PLUS the €30 minimum contribution to LA or SW. NOTE: €30 is the *MINIMUM* contribution it may be higher depending on individual circumstances.

So in this simple example, the SW recipient/HAP approved renter pays €68 pw in total, *NOT* €30 Brendan incorrectly suggest, but more than double that amount

There are of course a few caveats.

SW use their rent assistance as a cap on rent so SW recipients are not allowed to rent houses/apartments above this very low figure. I challenge anyone to find a rental property in Ireland at or below SW caps / HAP 
The rental figure is modest and the HAP figure is generous
Find a landlord willing to accept HAP
What's disappointing is the facts about renting are easily verifiable with very little effort here, and by using the various links provided


----------



## cremeegg (6 Mar 2017)

mathepac said:


> A person qualifying for social housing is expected to pay the difference between the rent demanded by the private sector landlord and the locally approved HAP from the local authority or SW housing assistance PLUS the €30 euro weekly minimum contribution.
> 
> For example, (Rent €140 pw) - (HAP  €102 pw) = €38 pw payable by SW recipient directly to the landlord (HAP is payable to landlord, SW housing assistance is not) PLUS the €30 minimum contribution to LA or SW. NOTE: €30 is the *MINIMUM* contribution it may be higher depending on individual circumstances.
> 
> So in this simple example, the SW recipient/HAP approved renter pays €68 pw in total, *NOT* €30 Brendan incorrectly suggest, but more than double that amount



As far as I am aware this would be illegal. People on the HAP scheme are not allowed to top up the rent paid by the local authority. This was certainly the case under RAS.


----------



## mathepac (6 Mar 2017)

@cremeegg I disagree. The last thing we can afford are more talk shops. We have committees and enquiries to beat the band, what have they changed?  Stop the talking and take action, starting with the greatest number and the recipients of huge wads of EU and social welfare payments, the farmers


----------



## cremeegg (6 Mar 2017)

*http://www.thejournal.ie/illegal-top-ups-rent-supplement-overhaul-1716762-Oct2014/

Illegal ‘Top-Up’ Payments*

Threshold says the practice of ‘topping up’ – where tenants in receipt of Rent Supplement pay an under-the-counter payment to their landlord in addition to the officially declared rent – is widespread.

This is in reference to RAS but I dont think it is different under HAP


----------



## mathepac (6 Mar 2017)

cremeegg said:


> As far as I am aware this would be illegal.


It is not illegal and HAP levels are *NOT* caps on rent payable.


cremeegg said:


> This is in reference to RAS but I dont think it is different under HAP


Stop talking about other older schemes and familiarise yourself with HAP which is currently replacing all of them


----------



## cremeegg (6 Mar 2017)

mathepac said:


> It is not illegal and HAP levels are *NOT* caps on rent payable.



Any evidence to support this claim ?


----------



## mathepac (6 Mar 2017)

Yes and i provided the links, go read them.


----------



## cremeegg (6 Mar 2017)

mathepac said:


> Yes and i provided the links, go read them.



I did, I cannot see where they support your claim that it is legal for the tenant to top up the rent paid by the local authority to the landlord.


----------



## mathepac (6 Mar 2017)

Can you show me where they say it is illegal?


----------



## Brendan Burgess (7 Mar 2017)

Hi Mathepac

I was writing an 800 word article which does not allow for a full comparison of every benefit and every payment.

In the past I was told it was not fair to compare social welfare benefits in Ireland with the UK because they have better benefits.

So I have noted here that housing costs are free in the UK but not in Ireland.

I found it very difficult to get a clear statement of what someone is expected to pay for their social housing.  My understanding is that a single person on social welfare in social housing pays €30 per week towards it. It seems to be less if they are under 26.

You are referring to renting from the private sector. I was referring to social housing, although I did not make that clear.

Again, I would point out that it's an 800 word article.

You missed another error in that piece : "roughly the same housing, although in the Republic, a person on the dole is expected to contribute €30 a week towards their housing costs." This implies that someone in the North is not expected to contribute to their housing costs. However, if  I understand it correctly,there are limits on housing benefit in the North as well. If a person is paying a private landlord more than the "Housing Benefit" rent, then they pay the extra themselves.

But even had I included your example in the article, the whole point of the article would still stand.


The dole is still much higher, although, the gap is less.

And it does not take away from the overall point that people who work hard and contribute PRSI get the same benefit as those who choose to be dependent on social welfare all their lives. 



Brendan


----------



## cremeegg (7 Mar 2017)

How much do social welfare recipients contribute to their housing costs?

It is a simple question, with a simple answer. The local authority makes it up as they go along. 

If you doubt this, see the detailed answer for Limerick from the council's website.

https://www.limerick.ie/sites/default/files/differential_rents_scheme_2015_1.pdf


----------



## Delboy (7 Mar 2017)

I can bring you to 2 small housing estates in my area of the west of Ireland, in neighbouring villages. Council built and let out to social welfare tenants mainly.
1 estate nearly all taken up by members of the 1 family.
A former school friend of mine is in 1 of the houses (with his wife and 2 kids), got it brand new in 2005. Pays €15 per week. Didn't like the range cooker when first shown the house so had the council change it to one he approved of. Has broadband paid for by the welfare 'so the kids can do their homework'. He's on disability, not sure what she's on but she definitely isn't fit to work! But lucky for him he's fit enough to cycle hundreds of miles every week on a top of the range racing bike as his main way to pass the day.


----------



## so-crates (7 Mar 2017)

noproblem said:


> Why isn't social welfare housing assistance paid directly to the landlord? I'd imagine it's one of the major problems in not wanting to rent to the recipients, because they get it, but a vast amount don't hand it over.



According to the link provided by mathepac to start with HAP is paid directly to the landlord.
----------------------------------------
"The local authority will then pay the rent *in full directly to the landlord*, on the last Wednesday of each month, subject to terms and conditions including rent limits"

"The HAP recipient pays their rent contribution to the local authority"
----------------------------------------

Looking through all the links on the website, whilst it does not specify a recipient contribution but it does seem to preclude "top-up" payments. From the landlord perspective the benefits are listed as 

*----------------------------------------
Direct payment* –you will be paid electronically on the last Wednesday of each month. This payment covers the occupation of the property by the HAP tenant for that calendar month. The payment is subject to terms and conditions including rent limits and that the HAP tenant pays a rent contribution to the local authority.
Consistency of payment – the HAP payment to you will not change if your tenant’s income changes.

Low administration – *you don’t need to collect rent or make requests for payment from your HAP tenant*.

Easy banking – all payments are made electronically.
----------------------------------------

And under how HAP will work for the landlord the landlord needs to provide to the council
*----------------------------------------*
An applicant who is eligible for HAP finds a suitable property in the private rental sector. As part of their application process, you, the landlord of the property, must send certain information to the local authority. You can return Part B of the HAP application form with the relevant information directly to the local authority. This information will include:
The *total* amount of the monthly rent
...
*----------------------------------------*

So whilst the links do not preclude payments by the recipient in excess of €30, the determination of the recipient contribution is on a case by case basis, but that is paid to the council rather than to the landlord.


----------



## mathepac (9 Mar 2017)

Brendan Burgess said:


> If they are on social welfare, they are paying very little for their housing costs.


 But very little in comparison to what? Artificially inflated rents? Their income levels? Their overall needs even if parents work?


----------



## Bronte (9 Mar 2017)

I've the HAP for two of my tenant's.  They were on the rent allowance before this.

I now get rent paid monthly, with one month in arrears, by the county council.  It's the full rent.

(But as a non resident they are taking the 20% off me as tax and that will be sorted out as a credit in my tax returns so is moot to this discussion).

It was a very cumbersome process to move to this.  But all sorted now.  What I cannot figure out is how the tenant pays the city corporation their bit.  No idea if it's taken from their dole, if it's a direct debit or how much it is.  I get the impression that the council are hiding the truth.  And that's becauase of the rental crisis.  So in effect they will pay more than the old ceilings, but they won't advertise it. But they seem to now have some lee way, which they didn't before, with the ceilings.


----------



## mathepac (9 Mar 2017)

There is close to zero availability of Social Housing countrywide, other than in Dublin and cork which reportedly have "construction plans" in place. No doubt there are tenants *IN* Social Housing but that means those homes are not available to meet current or newly arising needs. The LAs, where HAP applies, are exclusively reliant on the private rental sector for housing. Ring the housing sections in Kilkenny, Laois, Carlow, Tipperary and others and you'll be told that being on the Social Housing List means you can make a HAP application, but you'll have to find your own accommodation. Emergency B&B accommodation is excluded from this discussion.

There is a minimum contribution of €25/30 pw required of each single HAP recipient, which is means tested. It may be more, but I know of no LA in HAP that deducts less. As there is no Social Housing available, the HAP recipient must pay the landlord the difference between the HAP "approved rent" and the actual rent charged. This is between the landlord and the tenant.

I've typed all this at least three times so far and can't understand what is unclear in relation to HAP. It may be that HAP is being confused with other LA & SW schemes which typically, still operate in some areas, but HAP will replace all of them eventually (according to SW and the LAs).


----------



## Brendan Burgess (9 Mar 2017)

Thanks for the clarification.  

Is the following a fair summary? 

The [100,000 ?] social welfare recipients renting from a local authority or a housing association are paying around €30 to €50 a week for their accommodation. 

Social welfare recipients who are renting from private landlords [ any idea how many?] contribute at least €30 to the cost of their accommodation. But as the amount paid by the council does not cover market rent, most are paying more than €30 for their accommodation. 

Brendan


----------



## mathepac (9 Mar 2017)

Bronte said:


> And that's becauase of the rental crisis.  So in effect they will pay more than the old ceilings, but they won't advertise it. But they seem to now have some lee way, which they didn't before, with the ceilings.


But it's not a rental crisis, it's a manufactured, manipulated "housing shortage". It's a shame you didn't get to read the reports I linked to before they were deleted but in summary they state that nationwide there are 27 empty homes for every recipient of emergency housing, that there are 3 empty homes in Dublin (20,000) for every homeless person (6,000+).

Because of the created shortage of available homes, the LAs do not operate the "rent ceilings" that SW applied because they know the ceilings are completely unrealistic. The difference between the actual rent and HAP is a private matter between the landlord and tenant. The LA as far as I can establish will not pay this under HAP, nor will they pay the security deposit. The tenant must find first month's rent and deposit themselves.


----------



## mathepac (9 Mar 2017)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Is the following a fair summary?


It's hard to say Brendan.

Because there are other schemes as well as HAP in operation through SW, some tenants, typically families, may pay less than €30. Single SW recipients renting privately via HAP must pay €30 pw plus any rent differential. 

It's a mess and I know of no way of casting any light on it until there's a single source of information. HAP has still to replace the other schemes in a lot of areas. Sorry I don't have better information right now but I'm trying to chase it down.


----------



## Bronte (9 Mar 2017)

Mathpac, the tenants on HAP are no longer directly paying me everything.  I get the entire rent now from the corporation (earlier in error I said council).  In the past, when the got the rent allowance I had nothing to do with the corporation.  The tenant got the rent from social welfare and paid me that, with their own state mandated amount from their dole as well.  I have tenants still doing this.  I have no knowledge, as I said, of how much the HAP tenants are actually paying the corporatoin.  Nor do I now how they do the actual payment.  But I did insist the tenants increase their deposit, previously a month, because HAP is a month in arrears.

Correct, the HAB tenants pay the deposit.  And the first months rent.  The initial payment from HAB is a partial month. 

No I didn't read your links, sorry, didn't have time,  if they were short I would, but to be honest I got a load of stuff from the corporation. Very complicated but now it's sorted.

On who finds the accommodation, my understanding is the tenant has to find me.  I've never had any dealings with the corporation, but I had to fill out the rent allowance forms, prior to HAP, which was for Social welfare (is it the HSE, can't remember).  There was basically no relationship as landlord between me and the Social Welfare.  Now there's no 'legal' landlord relationship, either, with the corporatoin,  but they do pay me, all the tenant's rent.  And my legal landlord relationship is with the tenant still.  (plus requirements to prove I'm owner, prove I've paid lpt, prove I am tax compliant etc.)


----------



## Bronte (9 Mar 2017)

Yes Mathpac, my corporation told me that they are roling out HAP, all tenants on social welfare rent will move onto it. No idea if this is every county etc.  (I think they did a trial in three counties)

I get an email every month with an invoice showing the amount I'm to be paid, directly into the bank account.


----------



## Bronte (9 Mar 2017)

When I started on HAP I was trying to figure it out and phoned the corporation and made a summary for my agent as follows:


Rent is paid in arrears month. 

Means deposit has to be 2 months 

They are paying from start date 24th March – so watch out for that 

Payment is €XXX + XXX, = XXX, I will get this end of April 

From now on I will get xxx monthly.  Ie the total rent 

He pays them his % like the rent allowance so I think it's 24 he pays. 

There are no ceilings, but he did mention a cap of max XXX whatever that means


----------



## mathepac (10 Mar 2017)

You evidently have rental properties in a number of LA areas and seem to have a variety of  payment schemes in operation, which must be confusing.  There will probably be some short-term pain when HAP eventually replaces the other schemes.

HAP is paid to landlords monthly in arrears on the last Wednesday of the calendar month.


----------

