# New car on order, should I wait 'til July 08?



## Carpenter (8 Dec 2007)

The latest changes to VRT and Motor Taxation policy, announced as part of Budget 08, have got me thinking about an imminent car purchase; I'm hoping that some more knowledgeable people here at AAM can help put my mind at ease.  I've ordered a new family car for Jan. 08, a Ford C-Max 1.6 TDCi; I'm trading in my wife's current car as part of the deal.  By my reckoning if we waited 'til July we could cut our annual motor tax bill in half, as the C-Max emissions are only 127 g/km; I also believe that VRT for this car may be lower from July 08 (should be reflected in lower retail prices ??).  My question is simple: should I cancel the order for January and order the car in question for registration in July instead?  We have paid nothing over, our agreement with the garage is a verbal one only, no deposit paid, nothing signed (the dealership weren't overly "agressive" in pursuing the sale) and we plan to keep the new car for a few years, all going well.  The downside is that our trade-in depreciates further if we wait 'til July 08 to make the deal; we like the C-Max, we want the car but I don't want to be screwed long-term for the sake of a few months wait, what do the motoring experts at AAM think?  I'm expecting a call from the dealer next week to confirm details.....


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## kyote00 (8 Dec 2007)

as far as I understand the new rules regarding tax (not vrt), any car registered before July 08 will use the old system of tax.

So if you register it before July 08, you will pay more tax each year than if you had waited until after July 08....

I guess we will begin to see people who ordered CO2 hogs trying to register before July 08 to avoid the 2k tax and those who ordered C02 lean machines waiting until after July 08....

The only issue I can see with waiting is that you will no doubt not be alone and therefore we can expect some congestion in the supply pipeline of cars in the July timeframe !

(Cmax looks very nice)


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## bacchus (8 Dec 2007)

Carpenter,
There is very good post here (page 3 post #52)  about VRT and Road Tax for before and after 01/07/2008. 

Road Tax
(present) cc 1,501 to 1,600 - now €391, renewing after 1st Feb €428
(after 1/7/8)  Band B (121-140 grams perkm) - €150.
So, just on road tax, looks like you will gain €278 per year

VRT will be 16% after 1/7/8 as opposed to 25% before.

If the car you are traded in is say 4 year or more, she may not depreciate as much during the next 6 months as a 1 or 2 year old car would. 

So, you may need to do some sums... but considering the type of car that you want to buy, it looks like you will be better off waiting until July 08 IMO.


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## Carpenter (8 Dec 2007)

Thanks Bacchus, that thread is interesting, it would definitely appear that I would be better off,long term, if I were to hold off until after July '08.  I'm going to wait 'til I hear from the dealership and see what they have to say to help "persuade" me to purchase in January.


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## Wedgewood (8 Dec 2007)

Carpenter, I imagine there will be some modification to these plans as they are currently envisaged. It seems the idea is only half cooked and considerably penalises those who already own an efficient car. 

You would have to wonder do they think these things through at all as an imported car that set out on the road abroad on the same date as a similar one registered here could cost over 300 a year less to tax. Surely that will encourage more buyers to buy imported second hand diesel cars, affecting the existing market here at home.

I'd also imagine most dealers are in a state of panic at the moment with large order books of cars that many people will not want until July.


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## Brendano (8 Dec 2007)

I too was looking to buy a Passat Tdi in January. The dealers don't seem to know what the difference in price is going to be yet. I am sure they will have gotten their act together next week as they are looking at large numbers of people waiting until July otherwise and then maybe postponing purchase until 2009 ?!

It would have been easier for us all if the new regime were brought in from January 2008.


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## bacchus (9 Dec 2007)

Wedgewood said:


> You would have to wonder do they think these things through at all as an imported car that set out on the road abroad on the same date as a similar one registered here could cost over 300 a year less to tax. Surely that will encourage more buyers to buy imported second hand diesel cars, affecting the existing market here at home.




From the post i linked above in my reply to Carpenter..



> new registrations or imports into Ireland *after the 1st July 2008* will be *subject to the new VRT and Road Tax schemes*, in the case of *imports *this is the case *irrespective of the date of orignal registration in the country of origin.*


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## upport (9 Dec 2007)

There would be no problem for buyers of new low emisson cars if the changes were introduced from January 08.If administration is not in place untill July then rebate the buyers for the overpayment of vrt and road tax in July.Otherwise most deals will not go ahead untill after July or maybe not untill January 2009.


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## Carpenter (9 Dec 2007)

It seems a crazy situation, I'm very reluctant to go through with the deal now and I'm sure there must be many more purchasers in a similiar position.


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## lob020 (9 Dec 2007)

I also have ordered a new car ,but have paid 500 euro deposit -so if I decide to wait ,I will lose deposit ?Does anybody know if dealer will  return my deposit or what my rights are


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## bacchus (9 Dec 2007)

Carpenter said:


> It seems a crazy situation, I'm very reluctant to go through with the deal now and I'm sure there must be many more purchasers in a similiar position.



You are right. I would thing may people are going to delay their buy unless there are buying a Porsche!!...Sale are going to be low between now on 1/7/08. You may be able to get a big discount if you really need to get the car before 1/7/8


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## bacchus (9 Dec 2007)

lob020 said:


> I also have ordered a new car ,but have paid 500 euro deposit -so if I decide to wait ,I will lose deposit ?Does anybody know if dealer will  return my deposit or what my rights are



What car did you order? €500 may be the difference between yearly road tax before and after 1/7/08.... What about VRT difference?


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## upport (9 Dec 2007)

lob020 said:


> I also have ordered a new car ,but have paid 500 euro deposit -so if I decide to wait ,I will lose deposit ?Does anybody know if dealer will return my deposit or what my rights are


 
I have also ordered a new car for Jan and paid deposit €1,000.00, I specified several extras and expected delivery date is Jan 14th.

I spoke to dealer on Thursday and we agreed to meet next week to discuss the situation.The tone of conversation was 'we didnt create this problem,but we will endevour to solve it in a manner agreeable to both parties'.Revaluation of trade in and stocking cost until July were mooted and will be on agenda for meeting.

If legislation was introduced from Ist January for new cars....happy days.Otherwise it looks like July.


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## Carpenter (9 Dec 2007)

Upport, I wonder would you mind posting your experiences/ feedback from dealer when you have that meeting?  I'm expecting a call from my own dealer this week, thankfully I've nothing paid or signed but I'd like to think we could come to some agreement rather than me just walking away from the deal.  I was surprised that this wasn't covered in the one newspaper I read today.  My mind is pretty made up that I'm going to wait for July anyway, there's no way I'm signing up for higher road tax over the life of the vehicle just because of an anomaly.


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## Tedward (9 Dec 2007)

Interesting discussion - along the following lines I have the following query as some cars (I think I am correct) will be cheaper to buy in Jan 08 rather than July.

Considering buying an '08 Passat1.4 TSi .

Old vrt ( upto 1.4) = 22.5% of OMSP
Co2 emissions according to VW = 157 g /km
so new VRT post July 2008 = 24% (Band D) of OMSP

Tax in Jan 08 = €320 (after 9% increase fron '07 budget)
Tax in July based on CO2 emissions = €430.


If anything the car will be more expensive in July and the tax will also go up based on emisssions

Unless I have missed something it makes sense to buy Jan. - any thoughts??


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## Carpenter (10 Dec 2007)

I've just spoken to my own dealer, he doesn't seem to be particularly interested or worried about this anomaly, I've to ring him again on Wednesday to discuss the matter further.  I'd imagine a lot of car salesmen are going to have a lousy few months until July though.


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## RS2K (10 Dec 2007)

Positives:

1/. Lower VRT come July. Hopefully passed on in full.
2/. Lower annual road tax .

Neagtives:

1/. Possibly reduced trade in allowance.

If your old car is good, and not a gas guzzler (these will plummet in value btw) I'd hold off for the sake of 6 months.


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## upport (10 Dec 2007)

RS2K said:


> Positives:
> 
> 1/. Lower VRT come July. Hopefully passed on in full.
> 2/. Lower annual road tax .
> ...


 
Dealer says that he will encounter stocking costs and says that he will have to recost my deal accordingly in addition to revaluing my car as it will be six months older in July.


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## Carpenter (10 Dec 2007)

Thanks RS2K and Upport; a straw poll amongst some work colleagues confirmed my own thoughts:  do without the car for a few months and reap the benefit of lower motor tax over the life of the vehicle.


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## RS2K (10 Dec 2007)

upport said:


> Dealer says that he will encounter stocking costs and says that he will have to recost my deal accordingly in addition to revaluing my car as it will be six months older in July.



Stocking costs are the dealers problem, not the customers, in this instance.


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## Carpenter (10 Dec 2007)

Thanks to Bacchus also; I'm going to email the dealer now and cancel/ postpone the order until post 01/07/08 and I'll take my chances on depreciation on my current car in the intervening period.


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## upport (10 Dec 2007)

RS2K said:


> Stocking costs are the dealers problem, not the customers, in this instance.


Please elaborate.


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## RS2K (11 Dec 2007)

upport said:


> Please elaborate.



Dealer has a new car in stock for sale on 01/01/08, but customer decides to defer until 01/07/08.

Any stocking finance payable on the new car in the 6 months is an issue for the dealer.

Customer can always go elsewhere and strike a new deal if need be.

Lower emissions vehicles will be largely saleproof in the next 6 months.


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## upport (11 Dec 2007)

Thanks RS2K


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## Slim (12 Dec 2007)

Got it from a car salesman today that the distributors/manufacturers are already upping the new car prices to absorb a lot of the VRT cuts!

Slim


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## IFT (12 Dec 2007)

Slim said:


> Got it from a car salesman today that the distributors/manufacturers are already upping the new car prices to absorb a lot of the VRT cuts!
> 
> Slim



Thought so. Cars sold by manufactures to Ireland are cheaper than many EU countries but the added tax of VRT makes them more expensive.


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## Carpenter (13 Dec 2007)

I expect that dealers would up the prices of vehicles, but I'm still happier waiting 6 months so that "my" new car will be locked into the new emissions based motor taxation system as opposed to the current cc system.  When it comes time to trade in I'd imagine that there will be some differential in values for post 01/07/08 vs pre 01/07/08 registered vehicles.


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## Slim (14 Dec 2007)

> When it comes time to trade in I'd imagine that there will be some differential in values for post 01/07/08 vs pre 01/07/08 registered vehicles


 
Trying to get my head around this! If I buy a car in January that then goes down €2k in July and is then cheaper to tax, over the following 3 years, how different is the depreciation likely to be? If, in 3 years, the only difference between the two cars is,say, €100 p.a. in the car tax, will there be much of a difference in the trade in value? [Assuming there is no change in the meantime, i.e. emissions tested at NCT and taxed accordingly]

Slim


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## Mr2 (14 Dec 2007)

If the importers do put up the price of the cars it will benifit the owner of the "older" car as it will make sure there is no sever drop in second hand prices. If they don't all the people that already own cars will loose even more on there cars.

The difference prob will only be the price of the tax.


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## Carpenter (14 Dec 2007)

Slim said:


> Trying to get my head around this! If I buy a car in January that then goes down €2k in July and is then cheaper to tax, over the following 3 years, how different is the depreciation likely to be?
> Slim


 
I don't know, but what I do know is that the difference in taxing the vehicle I was interested in was about €250 (significant enough me thinks!).


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## yella (14 Dec 2007)

I think the new 2-tier motor tax system is a joke typical of an incompetent government. People who have invested in green cars in the last few years are getting a rough deal. If your car is clean you should be paying a lower rate regardless of when it was registered.
 They should have gradually phased in a full CO2 system for all cars.


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## upport (14 Dec 2007)

yella said:


> I think the new 2-tier motor tax system is a joke typical of an incompetent government. People who have invested in green cars in the last few years are getting a rough deal. If your car is clean you should be paying a lower rate regardless of when it was registered.
> They should have gradually phased in a full CO2 system for all cars.


There is no outcry in the media.Why? Have the media been muzzled? I've sent two emails to the Indo disagreeing with the implementation date and the two tier system,neither appeared.I sent emails to both ministers,neither were even acknowledged.
Unless this topic is discussed on Gerry Ryan or/and Joe Duffy we are wasting our time discussing it on forums.
Attack before its too late.Send mails to and ring Gerry Ryan and Joe Duffy.


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## Uachtarain (16 Dec 2007)

Do us all a favour.....BUY IT NOW and do your bit to reduce the country debt of a couple of €Billion>>>>


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## SOM42 (16 Dec 2007)

upport said:


> There is no outcry in the media.Why? Have the media been muzzled? I've sent two emails to the Indo disagreeing with the implementation date and the two tier system,neither appeared.I sent emails to both ministers,neither were even acknowledged.
> Unless this topic is discussed on Gerry Ryan or/and Joe Duffy we are wasting our time discussing it on forums.
> Attack before its too late.Send mails to and ring Gerry Ryan and Joe Duffy.


 
I agree entirely.  I bought a new car this year that has a low emmisions diesel engine.  My road tax will now be over €600 with the increase.  However an identical car bought next July will pay less than half that not to mind the cut in VRT.  The value of mine will also probably drop more than usual because of the new rules which will make buying a new one more attractive than a 1 year old car.


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## Brendano (16 Dec 2007)

i agree with earlier poster; the media are deafeningly silent on this issue and the dealers are saying that they have yet to work out what they are going to do !!
Can anybody tell me what the difference between buying a Passet 1.9TDI now or 1.7.08 would be ?


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## Slim (17 Dec 2007)

I estimate roughly a decrease of €1800.  Your CO2 = 154g. That's band C. Your VRT should go from 25% to 20%. The 2.0tdi may come down €2,300.

Slim


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## yella (18 Dec 2007)

upport said:


> There is no outcry in the media.Why? Have the media been muzzled? I've sent two emails to the Indo disagreeing with the implementation date and the two tier system,neither appeared.I sent emails to both ministers,neither were even acknowledged.
> Unless this topic is discussed on Gerry Ryan or/and Joe Duffy we are wasting our time discussing it on forums.
> Attack before its too late.Send mails to and ring Gerry Ryan and Joe Duffy.



Matt Cooper's  "The Last Word" is normally a good show for covering motoring. They would often have the AA on to comment on government policy. I have missed the show the last few nights so I'm not sure if they have revisted the subject since the budget. Perhaps we can start a thread to email these shows listing e-mail addresses.


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## CiaránE (19 Dec 2007)

I’ve a 2.0tdi estate ordered with no trade in, Dealer said he didn’t fully understand the implications but I’m not convinced, he mentioned that the discount available to me now, mightn’t be available in July.
20% of cars in Ireland are diesel, the % in forecourts I presume are less. Any current efficient diesel will be devalued, something the dealers will try to avoid. 
But not everyone likes diesel engines, so the less efficient  1.6/1.8 petrol’s may hold onto their  values for longer and become more valuable to the dealer. 
For dealers to retain the loss to their current diesels in stock will temporary up there base price. Or at least not offer a full discount, until the market stabilises in 2 years or so.
Diesels cars will become more affordable and subsequently devalue customers pre july reg’s cars 
I’m currently looking at a €2700 cheaper car and a saving of €160 in 2009.
But as always everyone situation is different, I need a car, and to get me to July I’ll have to pay at least  €1000 for a disposable car and lose my €500 deposit.
The dealer said “depending on the discount available in July, I might only be saving myself €600-€700”
A rep that trades six 1.9tdi passat’s every year and not from the same dealers (3 here 2 there) got the same story.
A local BMW dealer said he could give me a 318d touring SE for €7000 less than there currently charging. But what about someone trading in a 318d in 2009/10  
Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong, and any suggestions greatly welcome


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## CiaránE (19 Dec 2007)

I’ve a 2.0tdi estate ordered with no trade in, Dealer said he didn’t fully understand the implications but I’m not convinced, he mentioned that the discount available to me now, mightn’t be available in July.
20% of cars in Ireland are diesel, the % in forecourts I presume are less. Any current efficient diesel will be devalued, something the dealers will try to avoid. 
But not everyone likes diesel engines, so the less efficient 1.6/1.8 petrol’s may hold onto their values for longer and become more valuable to the dealer. 
For dealers to retain the loss to their current diesels in stock will temporary up there base price. Or at least not offer a full discount, until the market stabilises in 2 years or so.
Diesels cars will become more affordable and subsequently devalue customers pre july reg’s cars 
I’m currently looking at a €2700 cheaper car and a saving of €160 in 2009.
But as always everyone situation is different, I need a car, and to get me to July I’ll have to pay at least €1000 for a disposable car and lose my €500 deposit.
The dealer said “depending on the discount available in July, I might only be saving myself €600-€700”
A rep that trades six 1.9tdi passat’s every year and not from the same dealers (3 here 2 there) got the same story.
A local BMW dealer said he could give me a 318d touring SE for €7000 less than there currently charging. But what about someone trading in a 318d in 2009/10 
Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong, and any suggestions greatly welcome


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## CiaránE (19 Dec 2007)

Also, Can you buy a car from the dealer and register it yourself later, keep it in storage ?


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## Slim (20 Dec 2007)

Car Dealers speak with forked tongues! 

If you're trading in a pre July 08 2.0tdi, with lowish emissions, you will be told that the trade in value is less than you expect because the new versions are so much cheaper! However, if you go to buy one of the pre July 08 cars secondhand off the dealer, he will tell you they have kept their value well because they are the same to tax as they always were!
No matter what, the delaers will win out.

I expect to see a lot more cars on the roadside with luminous "For Sale" signs on them.

Slim


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## RS2K (20 Dec 2007)

CiaránE said:


> Also, Can you buy a car from the dealer and register it yourself later, keep it in storage ?



No you can't.


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## Hibernicatio (20 Dec 2007)

Is it a good time to buy a second hand car now? Or is it better to wait until July 08?


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