# Petrol v Diesel calculation



## tallpaul (22 Apr 2015)

Just a quick question. I've been googling to find a relevant petrol vs diesel calculator where I could put in my mileage (kilometreage?) and work out which would be better. 

Looking to buy a new car and on some of the models there is up to €2000 in the difference between the type of engines. I'm trying to work out the the flip-point when one is better value than the other taking into account the stated (overinflated) consumption figures. I do average enough mileage of about 17-18km's a year. Any ideas


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## Steven Barrett (22 Apr 2015)

I used to have a petrol car and now have a diesel. The diesel has far better fuel consumption than the petrol one. Road tax is much cheaper too. 

Not very scientific, I know. 

Steven
www.bluewaterfp.ie


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## Leo (22 Apr 2015)

That will really vary from car to car, so you are probably best identifying the make and model of car you're after, and then calculating based on that. 

The fuel consumption figures published are not real-world numbers, but are produced under laboratory conditions. That is done deliberately to make the tests repeatable and uniform, and stop manufacturers playing the system by manipulating the test. So while they won't be 100% accurate, they'll give a reasonable indication that you can use to compare one car against another. Look up Honest John's Real MPG reports to see what owners of a car are reporting as their actual usage.

You will need to factor in servicing costs also, and DPF replacement on the diesel, depending on age and how long you intent on keeping it.


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## mathepac (22 Apr 2015)

If your travel consists of many short journeys in and around urban areas (low speed) than a modern diesel is probably not for you. If you do primarily this kind of travelling buy a petrol-engined car or hybrid.


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## tomwa (2 May 2015)

Electric is way cheaper than diesel. A Nissan Leaf starts at a similar price to the diesel Golf, but running costs are around eight times lower.
Realistic range is 130km at worst, 160km once you get used to the driving style. And if you go longer distances occasionally the eCars rapid chargers charge the car to 80% in 15-20 minutes, for free.

It's also a hell of a lot nicer car to drive. 0 - 100 in 10 seconds flat. Depreciation has been similar to a Toyota Auris since 2010. But average savings are at least €2,000 a year. 8 year 160,000km warranty on the battery. There's also €4k scrappage at the moment.

There are other EVs about, many worth considering, but the Leaf has the best infrastructure supporting it at the moment.

I do 50,000 km a year and changed from a 2.0 Diesel last year. Can't for the life of me understand why anyone who has a commute of 50km or less isn't driving one.


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## Agent 47 (2 May 2015)

Go to honestjohn.co.uk for a calculator and their true mpg.


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## Agent 47 (2 May 2015)

From my perspective having passed 3 diesel cars through this household and now driving one, I will be going back to petrol of which we had 6 cars. Apart from the economy diesels are an expensive nightmare, but not for me as I service mine on the button. The issue is the complicated filtration for particulates, it will clog up, it will need replacing and if you get change out of 800 euro and don't get stranded when it goes then you are one of the lucky ones. Our 2nd diesel had an expensive EGR problem and promptly was traded in for petrol.
If you have doubts on diesel v petrol pop into the Esso garage on the quays in Dublin, at the counter you will see tens of 1 ltr bottles of Dipithane that diesel drivers are buying with each fill up at 10 euro a pop to add in to clean their dpf. Do the maths with that in mind and sense will prevail.


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## tomwa (2 May 2015)

Agent 47 said:


> Go to honestjohn.co.uk for a calculator and their true mpg.



Their electric numbers are out by a factor of two from the typical owners experience. In the small print they've used peak electricity rates (£0.153/kWh in UK) when most owners charge on nightsaver (£0.053 /kWh in the UK, €0.074/kWh on SSE Airtricity in Ireland).
The car has built-in charging and climate control timers to help you take advantage of the lower rates. So actual "fuel" numbers for EVs would be less than half what they are quoting. Maintenance is a big difference as well, EVs have optional annual inspections but you really only need to watch the brake fluid and change the tires.

Not to even mention the insurance discounts, free parking in some places, 20 free tolls a year (if you live in Cork) and lower tax.

They picked an ugly looking photo for the leaf too....

http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/fuel-calculator/?v1=MNISALEA0002&v2=MTOYCAUR0210&m=17,000


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## Leo (5 May 2015)

I'd imagine 17-18k a year is pushing the limits of EVs, and you don't really want to be doing significant mileage in something that small anyway. 

If you're factoring in servicing of petrol/diesel models, you'll need to include a battery replacement for an EV. They're $7k for the Leaf in the US, not sure how much here. Look how much your phone battery's capacity falls over a few years.

If you want the fast charger installed at home, it costs €900 + installation. But fast charging will speed up the decline in battery capacity.



tomwa said:


> They picked an ugly looking photo for the leaf too....



You'd struggle to find a good looking one!


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## mathepac (5 May 2015)

Agent 47 said:


> From my perspective having passed 3 diesel cars through this household and now driving one, I will be going back to petrol of which we had 6 cars. Apart from the economy diesels are an expensive nightmare, but not for me as I service mine on the button. The issue is the complicated filtration for particulates, it will clog up, it will need replacing and if you get change out of 800 euro and don't get stranded when it goes then you are one of the lucky ones. Our 2nd diesel had an expensive EGR problem and promptly was traded in for petrol.
> If you have doubts on diesel v petrol pop into the Esso garage on the quays in Dublin, at the counter you will see tens of 1 ltr bottles of Dipithane that diesel drivers are buying with each fill up at 10 euro a pop to add in to clean their dpf. Do the maths with that in mind and sense will prevail.


It sounds like you bought diesel cars when your city driving would have been better suited to  a petrol or hybrid fuelling system or maybe even a gas conversion (€0.76 a litre anyone?)

I blame car-salesmen who big up the lower fuel and motor-tax costs without enquiring  about the job the driver wants the car to do. Short hop city mileage is unsuited to modern diesels, but car salesmen are commission & target driven and the targets were set for diesel sales to increase, leaving a lot of dissatisfied customers who blamed the cars for the problems created by greed.

My sister was being pushed into buying a diesel version of the Nissan Juke, there's another fugly car, never having owned a diesel car in her life and having an unchanging driving pattern; a city dweller with rare excursions outside The Pale. She almost fell for the auld flannel until I visited the dealership with her and pointed out from Nissan's own documentation the costs she'd likely incur with DPFs clogging etc. She bought a petrol Juke as they were giving her a good deal on her trade-in, but I saved her a good few quid and a great deal of heart ache. I cost the salesman his commission but so what?

Dipetane sells for €10 / litre as you pointed out, but that can treat 200 litres of fuel -  petrol, diesel, kerosene, etc at the recommended dilution rate of 1:200. Your average car holds about 50 litres of fuel so using Dipetane at the recommended ratio adds €2.50 to the cost of a full tank of fuel or €0.05 / litre, hardly excessive. I can save twice that per lire by buying my fuel in Tescos with the money-off vouchers.

"_EVs have optional annual inspections but you really only need to watch the brake fluid and change the tires [sic]_."

It's a relief to hear that braking and suspension components on EVs will no longer need checking or replacement  even driving on our appalling roads and that the various belts that operate the transmissions, air-con / fresh-air systems  and energy-harvesting will be everlasting, that they'll never need wiper blades and that the pumps and tubes and jets that clean the headlights and front and rear screens won't clog or freeze and that the heating elements in the seats (where fitted, consult your user documentation, T&Cs apply) rear-view mirrors front and rear screens won't fail.

Sounds like a great deal, but what if I want to drive from Cork to Belfast - will it really take in excess of 24 hours? What about Limerick to Carndonagh? or Wexford to Derry? or any other journey of more than say 85/90 miles? Should I be prepared to hitch some of the way and collect my re-charged EV on the return leg?


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## Firefly (5 May 2015)

Very interesting! My wife's car is 13 years old and this could be a super option - I see Nissan are also giving 4,000 scrappage too so for us this would be about 16k for a new car. If I was to use this for my everyday journeys it would save me 3,000 per year on fuel....


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## mathepac (6 May 2015)

@tomwa it sounds to me as if you have a vested interest in EVs, but I have yet to see you declare it. Do you sell them or otherwise profit from their sale or use?

I have no doubt I could drive an EV from Dublin to Moscow, but I'd only need the Irish EV infrastructure to get started; the rest of the journey is serviced by the charging infrastructure outside Ireland, like your trips to Amsterdam and London.

The reality is that the extra-urban EV network in Ireland is patchy at best and non-existent at worst. Telling me journey costs that are based on free electricity is not an honest comparison. To do a fair  & honest cost analysis, compare an EV with a diesel, petrol or gas-powered vehicle that also has free fuel for another 6 or 7 months.  

Why the disparity in claimed battery capacity of 130 kms and the recommended trip distance of 100 kms?

My interests are those of a consumer looking for clarity in a welter of potentially misleading "advertation".


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## tomwa (6 May 2015)

mathepac said:


> @tomwa it sounds to me as if you have a vested interest in EVs, but I have yet to see you declare it. Do you sell them or otherwise profit from their sale or use?



I do not. I'm an EV driver since early last year, now on my second EV from another manufacturer and two of my family members have now moved to Nissan Leafs.
Nissan had a referral scheme during February/March which offered €1000, this has ended and the only time I claimed under it I gave the full amount to the person I referred.

I'm an engineer not an environmentalist. EVs are better vehicles in almost every respect. Driving a vehicle with instant torque is a lot of fun, driving a silent gearless vehicle is relaxing and the savings are the icing on the cake.

A lot of what you brought up were valid worries in 2010 when the first practical EVs were launched. But we're five years and a quarter million vehicles down the road now and have the answers to questions like reliability, running costs, rapid charging and battery lifespan.



mathepac said:


> I have no doubt I could drive an EV from Dublin to Moscow, but I'd only need the Irish EV infrastructure to get started; the rest of the journey is serviced by the charging infrastructure outside Ireland, like your trips to Amsterdam and London.
> 
> The reality is that the extra-urban EV network in Ireland is patchy at best and non-existent at worst. Telling me journey costs that are based on free electricity is not an honest comparison. To do a fair & honest cost analysis, compare an EV with a diesel, petrol or gas-powered vehicle that also has free fuel for another 6 or 7 months.



The Irish charging infrastructure is one of the best in the world. There are now 80 rapid chargers and almost a thousand public fast chargers all on one card and free. I recommend downloading the eCars map, finding the rapid chargers along the routes you drive and talking to the actual owners stopping at those chargers.

The UK is a disaster with 7 separate charging networks, several of which are almost bust, several charge exorbitant rates and the majority don't maintain their charging points properly. In actuality the Dublin area network is a lot worse than the extra-urban network, with older less-reliable chargers and only three multi-standard units. The majority of EV owners in Ireland are outside Dublin and a disproportionate number are rural.

Paying for all the electricity used on a Cork to Belfast round trip works out at €9.38. EVs are at least four to five times more efficient than diesel without tax differences. However for the foreseeable future ESB eCars infrastructure is free of charge (I'm told until sales exceed 10% of new cars), this policy has been guaranteed by ESB in public meetings as applying until the end of 2016 at least. There were more Nissan Leaf sales in Q1 2015 than in the entire year of 2014. Currently there are just over 600 Leafs on the Irish roads and just under 800 EVs total.

I'll adjust for free diesel if you can find someone who will give it to me for free. eCars in Ireland and Ecotricity in the UK will give me free electricity until the end of next year. Otherwise it's not apples to apples.



mathepac said:


> Why the disparity in claimed battery capacity of 130 kms and the recommended trip distance of 100 kms?



You have 130km solid in all conditions, if your daily commute is below 100km that's around 70% of your battery at worst, leaving you room for incidental trips. If your commute is longer than this you need either charging at work or a visit to a rapid charger. Many EV owners (including myself) do much longer daily distances than this, but it requires a little more thought.



mathepac said:


> My interests are those of a consumer looking for clarity in a welter of potentially misleading "advertation".



I honestly can't understand why 95% of drivers aren't driving them other than inertia or lack of information. Very few people in Ireland have requirements of a vehicle not met by the EVs currently on the market.
The market has grown considerably from the two Nissan Leafs bought in 2010, and it's come from that low base largely on word of mouth recommendations from owners.
Norway has the same population as Ireland, a worse climate, longer distances between population centers and they have 50,000 EVs on the road.

Dealers hate the EVs. They don't understand how they work and they're low margin. They are forced to carry them by contract and often assign EV sales to the most junior salesperson or try to steer people towards higher margin easier to sell Petrol or Diesel models.


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## Leo (6 May 2015)

tomwa said:


> Wrong. Your phone battery is not equivalent to automotive grade cells with a proper BMS.What kills the batteries is heat.



There's not a lot between them to be fair! It was the mobile industry who have developed and advanced Li-Ion technology since the 70s, Tesla were the first to introduce them to EVs as recently as 2008. The dominant market for Li-Ion cells remains the mobile industry. The deterioration in their lifespan is down to chemistry...heat plays a role in dissipation, but chemical changes over time will ultimately lower capacity. The ACS have found 5-20 year lifespans to be reasonable. It has been reported that Nissan think they'll last 10!



tomwa said:


> 1. there is an industry standard 160,000km/8 year EU warranty on the battery that guarantees free replacement if the battery drop below 70% capacity.



Can you provide a link to that? The warranty advertised by Nissan limits their coverage to battery capacity dropping to under 75% within 5 years or 100,000km, whichever comes first.



tomwa said:


> 2. even outside of warranty the original battery has a resale value (primarily for grid storage applications) more than half the cost of the new battery. So, list price is €7k but nobody ever had to pay that.



In the US, Nissan only pay $1000. Can you provide a link to anyone who is buying/selling used EV batteries for 50% of the list price?? Power storage applications generally use deep cycle batteries.




tomwa said:


> 3. with more than 40 thousand Leafs sold in the EU, and many on the road since 2010, there have been only three battery replacements, all covered under warranty. That's 0.01%.



You sure you don't have more of a vested interest, or where are you getting that info?



tomwa said:


> Leo said: ↑
> If you want the fast charger installed at home, it costs €900 + installation. But fast charging will speed up the decline in battery capacity.
> Nope again...You're mixing up rapid and fast charging. Even eCars gets mixed up... but here's the proper terminology:
> 
> ...



I'm using the terminology that Nissan use in their own marketing material. The free ESB charger is rated at 16A, Nissan's 32A Home Fast Charger option is another €900 plus installation, and they recommend only using a Nissan approved installer. Using that charger halves the home charging time from 8 to 4 hours. The free ESB scheme only applies to the first 2000 points installed across the country.


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## tomwa (6 May 2015)

Leo said:


> There's not a lot between them to be fair! It was the mobile industry who have developed and advanced Li-Ion technology since the 70s, Tesla were the first to introduce them to EVs as recently as 2008. The dominant market for Li-Ion cells remains the mobile industry. The deterioration in their lifespan is down to chemistry...heat plays a role in dissipation, but chemical changes over time will ultimately lower capacity. The ACS have found 5-20 year lifespans to be reasonable. It has been reported that Nissan think they'll last 10!



True, EV battery chemistry is similar to the cell used in your phone, but the chemistry has been adjusted slightly in the 10 years since automotive cell production started with A123 Systems. Cell construction is usually different (with for example my i3 using a Samsung wrapped cell unlike anything in the electronics industry).

I'm basing battery lifespan on dump from OBD II from my own Leaf and from other owners and an adjusted version of the aging model used here: 
Reasons I adjusted the model include a change in battery chemistry between the Mark 1 and Mark 1.5 Nissan Leaf and OBD II dumps that suggested the aging model to be over pessimistic for the Irish climate.

You also need to account for the fact that there are a lot more cells in the pack than a cell phone battery. Balancing is a problem on a battery with a small number of cells.
Not every recharge is a cycle for every cell. That was another issue with the EV Wiki aging model.



Leo said:


> Can you provide a link to that? The warranty advertised by Nissan limits their coverage to battery capacity dropping to under 75% within 5 years or 100,000km, whichever comes first.



http://www.greencarcongress.com/201...y-leaf-battery-for-8-years-100000-miles-.html

The warranty terms you reference are the new terms for the US I believe, where climate related battery degradation is more of a problem. Can't find any mention of the battery warranty at all on any of the Irish Nissan sites. The documentation that came with both my Leaf and i3 state 8-year / 160,000km battery warranties with 3 year  / 100,000km warranty on the rest of the car.



Leo said:


> In the US, Nissan only pay $1000. Can you provide a link to anyone who is buying/selling used EV batteries for 50% of the list price?? Power storage applications generally use deep cycle batteries.



I asked Windsor Belgard and was told that a €3k credit applied. Power storage often used deep cycle batteries before Lithium-Ion became cheaper per kWh. For those applications Lithium-Ion requires less maintenance, provides more stable longer term storage, several times the number of charge cycles and requires a less complex BMS.



Leo said:


> You sure you don't have more of a vested interest, or where are you getting that info?



Fully willing to meet IRL with my EV and documentation detailing my mileage and costs if anyone doubts me. I work in an unrelated industry.



Leo said:


> I'm using the terminology that Nissan use in their own marketing material. The free ESB charger is rated at 16A, Nissan's 32A Home Fast Charger option is another €900 plus installation, and they recommend only using a Nissan approved installer. Using that charger halves the home charging time from 8 to 4 hours. The free ESB scheme only applies to the first 2000 points installed across the country.



Nissan's terminology is correct. The most common definition of Fast Charging includes anything over 230V 12A. It's your statement that fast charging has a measurable effect on battery lifespan that's incorrect.
A 6.6kW equipped leaf has a pair of chargers which split the load of charging the cells, the cells are not put under any additional stress.

Correct that the ESB scheme only applies to the first 2000 points. But it's also fair to point out that there are more than a thousand points remaining on that scheme.

Nissan's €900 charger is expensive, it's just a standard Type 2 Mode 3 charger. As I stated the cost for one of those is in the region of €500 excluding up to €200 for installation.
The approved installer stuff is nonsense. Screw the charger to the wall, check your ground is good, use the proper grade of cable and make sure you use a 63A rated RCBO.
Any competent electrician can do the installation.


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## Leo (6 May 2015)

tomwa said:


> The warranty terms you reference are the new terms for the US I believe, where climate related battery degradation is more of a problem. Can't find any mention of the battery warranty at all on any of the Irish Nissan sites. The documentation that came with both my Leaf and i3 state 8-year / 160,000km battery warranties with 3 year  / 100,000km warranty on the rest of the car.



I couldn't find any reference on their Irish material either, links I found were to [broken link removed], where they're providing 5 year / 60k miles.



tomwa said:


> I asked Windsor Belgard and was told that a €3k credit applied.



Again, I could only find UK or US material online, $7k with $1k rebate in the US, £5k with £1k rebate in the [broken link removed]. 

EVs of some form are the future, but I think until the range issue is sorted, and the need to stop and wait 30 minutes every 100km or so is eliminated, they'll be limited to a niche, second car market.


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## tomwa (6 May 2015)

Leo said:


> EVs of some form are the future, but I think until the range issue is sorted, and the need to stop and wait 30 minutes every 100km or so is eliminated, they'll be limited to a niche, second car market.



I think we can both agree that they currently suit more people than the 1% of new car buyers currently purchasing them.

- How many people honestly travel more than 130km on a daily basis? People forget that with a charger at home they start every day with a full battery.

- How many could tolerate stopping for a 15-20 minute rapid charge for the occasional trip they make beyond the range of the car?

- Are people aware that battery prices have dropped so rapidly that with the grants it can be cheaper to purchase an EV than a Focus or Golf?

- Do people know the difference in running costs?

I think the issue is that few people know how practical the current vehicles are and that rapid charging is an option for those occasional trips beyond the range.

Q4 2016 - 2017 will see ranges double with the Gen2 Leaf and Tesla's cheaper Model 3.

What kind of annoys me is that people don't seem to be considering Electric as a viable option. Which is why I posted to this thread.
Based on the 2011 CSO figures the average daily mileage in Ireland is 31.2 km. And most BEVs on the market can do between 130km and 180km on a charge.


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## Leo (7 May 2015)

tomwa said:


> I think we can both agree that they currently suit more people than the 1% of new car buyers currently purchasing them.



Absolutely, they really would suit a lot of typical commutes. However, many people living in towns or doing these commutes don't have off-street parking where they can securely fit a convenient home charging point. I passed by the public charging point nearest me on my way home last night, there were non-EVs parked in those spaces, the same cars were there this morning. To be effective, the parking around these points would need to be restricted to EVs while charging. 



tomwa said:


> - How many people honestly travel more than 100km on a daily basis? People forget that with a charger at home they start every day with a full battery.
> 
> - How many could tolerate stopping for a 15-20 minute rapid charge for the occasional trip they make beyond the range of the car?



A lot of the resistance is down to having the option to do those occasional longer journeys without having to plan ahead for stops, and wait around for chargers. Remember the fuss a few years back when it was suggested we didn't need on-motorway services because we had more than enough options within minutes of many junctions? People just didn't want to deviate from their journeys.



tomwa said:


> - Are people aware that battery prices have dropped so rapidly that with the grants it can be cheaper to purchase an EV than a Focus or Golf?



People in the Focus/ Golf market are generally looking for something more than most current EVs offer. Comparing like with like, the Leaf base prices range from €21,450-26,390, similar sized Micra is priced €15,095-€16,095. Those Leaf prices incorporates the SEAI €5k grant, and there's no guarantee that will last, it keeps being extended year to year. If the government manage to meet their 2020 targets, that scheme, and the motor tax rates are likely to be altered.


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## mathepac (7 May 2015)

Fully agree Leo. It would be great to see some real-world total cost-of-ownership comparisons of EVs vs fossil-fuelled vehicles that exclude the gimmickry of short-term grants and "free or discounted until we decide different" small print. I am deeply suspicious of these free lunches as inevitably a bill of some kind follows consumption. If the real cost of an EV is twice that of a similarly-sized and  specced diesel, petrol or gas powered vehicle, then depreciation is going to a tough pill to swallow.


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## tomwa (8 May 2015)

Leo said:


> Absolutely, they really would suit a lot of typical commutes. However, many people living in towns or doing these commutes don't have off-street parking where they can securely fit a convenient home charging point. I passed by the public charging point nearest me on my way home last night, there were non-EVs parked in those spaces, the same cars were there this morning. To be effective, the parking around these points would need to be restricted to EVs while charging.



True, ICEing of EV bays a big issue and no local authority has implemented fines. The new building regulations require pre-wiring for chargers in at least 10% of parking for multi-tenancy units. Some people (like me) have gone ahead and fitted a charger to our apartment car parking anyway (ESB will not do these installs for the free charger, I got the free charger fitted to my weekend place instead). But this is Ireland, a larger percentage of people than most countries do have their own driveway or suitable parking space. In some cases people who can't charge at home have been able to charge at work ( since the cost is so low many workplaces do provide charging at no cost to the employee ).



Leo said:


> A lot of the resistance is down to having the option to do those occasional longer journeys without having to plan ahead for stops, and wait around for chargers. Remember the fuss a few years back when it was suggested we didn't need on-motorway services because we had more than enough options within minutes of many junctions? People just didn't want to deviate from their journeys.



True,  and there's an additional issue that ESB has been siting many of the rapid chargers at large shopping centers which causes more issues over ICE vehicles blocking parking.

I'm also skeptical that people realise the rapid charging is even possible. People come up to me at chargers on a regular basis and none seem to be aware of rapid charging. Even the vehicle range is a pleasant surprise to many.



Leo said:


> People in the Focus/ Golf market are generally looking for something more than most current EVs offer. Comparing like with like, the Leaf base prices range from €21,450-26,390, similar sized Micra is priced €15,095-€16,095. Those Leaf prices incorporates the SEAI €5k grant, and there's no guarantee that will last, it keeps being extended year to year.If the government manage to meet their 2020 targets, that scheme, and the motor tax rates are likely to be altered.



The Micra isn't even remotely similarly sized. The Leaf is larger than the Pulsar inside and out (taller, wider and even longer (by more than 20cm)). The Pulsar starts at €20k not €15k, and has far less standard equipment than the Leaf.

The SEAI grant is taken off the vehicle before purchase and it's even per vehicle, therefore it's fair to include it in the advertised price. While there may be no guarantee the grants will not be lowered in the next budget, EV powertrain prices are dropping fast enough that an EV powertrain will be cheaper than an ICE powertrain in 2019/2020. It cost Nissan €33,000 to produce and import a Leaf in 2010 excluding taxes and grants (they were making a loss on each unit).
In 2015 that number has gone down by more than a third based on: reduced battery prices (this is the majority of the saving), reduced production costs (the first Leafs were all made in Japan, they are now made in local factories for each region) and increased volume allowing component suppliers to reduce prices.



mathepac said:


> Fully agree Leo. It would be great to see some real-world total cost-of-ownership comparisons of EVs vs fossil-fuelled vehicles that exclude the gimmickry of short-term grants and "free or discounted until we decide different" small print.



My numbers are fairly typical, although I do double the mileage of the average owner.

I did 4500km in November on a Leaf. Telematics from the vehicle reported 413 kWh of power used for the month. 70% of which was on my home charger which with an additional 10% for charging losses is confirmed by the energy monitor I put on the cable between the distribution board and the charger.
Like pretty much every EV owner I use a nightsaver meter (though my unit rate is around 1c below available domestic night rates (my home is on a multi-property commercial account)), this meter costs €50/year in increased standing charges.

Discounting the fact that a third of my charging was on free chargers, if I paid for all the electricity used at my unit rate the fuel bill for the month is in the region of €30. Multiply 413 by your own unit rate if you like.

Heck I moved running my washing machine and dishwasher to the night rate hour too and currently my electricity bill is lower than it was before I moved to an electric car.

Here's a post by one of the ESB "ambassadors" detailing their costs:
[broken link removed]



mathepac said:


> I am deeply suspicious of these free lunches as inevitably a bill of some kind follows consumption.



It's not a free lunch, you get an electricity bill and currently even with the grants you pay a little more up front. eCars are eventually moving to a system where energy use at public charging points plus a per charger convenience fee will be added to your household bill.

The vehicle prices are dropping fast enough that reduced grants in a few years won't matter.



mathepac said:


> If the real cost of an EV is twice that of a similarly-sized and  specced diesel, petrol or gas powered vehicle, then depreciation is going to a tough pill to swallow.



You must be joking. EVs retail at €2-4K more than ICE equivalents. EV running costs are consistently eight times lower than an equivalent diesel. The motor and battery is more than four times more efficient than the best diesels in raw numbers. Lower maintenance, night rate electricity and tax differences between diesel and electricity accounts for the rest.
I have the OBDII recorded fuel consumption numbers from my old '12 Avensis, the numbers from the telematics on the EV and the service bills for both vehicles for their first year. Personally I'm running in excess of 10 times lower.

That means payback of the price difference in some cases within the first year.  Because of the low volume they are not stripped down and much higher specced than "equivalent" ICE vehicles sold, so you might even be ahead the day you drive it out of the dealer.

As I said by 2019/2020 ( when we get to $70-100/kWh for the battery ) an EV will be cheaper to build than a petrol or diesel car. Wide scale adoption is almost certain when the numbers reach $150/kWh.







Tesla's Gigafactory will single handedly double worldwide cell production, is already under construction (as you can see above) and predicted to drop prices below $100/kWh in its first year of operation (Q4 2016 - 2017). 






You'll note that real-world prices in the chart from 2014 are already HALF the predictions for 2015. You'll also note that Nissan's initial per kWh cost for the first Leafs was in the region of $750 and that in 2013 that cost had lowered to $275 per kWh. Tesla pushed their costs below $250/kWh in 2013 (http://insideevs.com/tesla-battery-...less-than-a-quarter-of-the-car-in-most-cases/ and confirmed by Tesla's later SEC filings, and confirmed again this month when Tesla started selling batteries to utilities for less than $250/kWh).
Given the battery is the most expensive part of the vehicle with the motor itself costing as little as €700 you can see why I'm confident.

We know how a Leaf depreciates, there are 2010 and 2011 units on the market. go look at autotrader (because of the VRT credit all UK Leaf imports are €0 VRT) or carzone.

When it comes to the OPs question about buying a car today and considering with the scrappage and grant a new leaf starts at €17k and a used leaf can be got for €12.5k. You'd need a use case substantially outside the Leaf's capabilities to justify the extreme increase in running costs for a diesel or petrol vehicle.


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## Firefly (2 Jun 2015)

I think a few things need to happen for widespread adoption (which I do see happening):

The range / recharge limitations are a must - I would say 200 miles and a fast recharge of 15-20 mins.
Existing models need to be incorporated - no offence to anyone driving the Leaf but when I suggested one to Mrs F she said in no uncertain terms she wouldn't be giving up her first love (that 13 year old car) for one.
The price of oil would need to continue to rise.

I would guess many people are buying their last petrol/diesel car and that hybrids / battery powered cars will be the norm / in the majority by 2020.


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## Leo (2 Jun 2015)

Firefly said:


> I would guess many people are buying their last petrol/diesel car and that hybrids / battery powered cars will be the norm / in the majority by 2020.



Hybrids perhaps, but even the green lobby targets are a lot short of them being the norm by 2020.


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