# two buy to lets one home + visa



## robe (9 Jan 2013)

Hi I have two buy to lets .(1) Owe 250,000 value 90,000 intrest payments 450 and rent in 750. no arrears.(2) Owe 400,000 value 240,000 intrest payments 1447 not rented arrears 6000.(3) On my family home I owe 300,000. value 220,000 intrest payments 380 no arrears. (4) visa 15,700 (5) loans to family 9,000 .
The big problem is nos 2+3 are cross charged and ptsb is  telling me they will repossess no2 and after its sold will add the short fall to my family home thats approx 160,000 and will make my family home unsutainable. All loans are on tracker (1) ecb + 1.1% (2) ecb + 3.35% (3) ecb + 0.8%
I am not paying into visa at the moment.
My income has dropped from 50,000 to 40,000 and my wives 26,000 to 16,000. we have 3 children and would hope to keep our family home. 
Any advice please


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## Bronte (10 Jan 2013)

robe said:


> Hi I have two buy to lets .
> 
> (1) Owe 250,000
> value 90,000
> ...


 

Your two buy to lets are PTSB, is that also true of your home?

Property 1 is fine as the rent more than covers the mortgage. Is it interest only for the lifetime of the mortgage?

Property 2, why is this not rented?

Your home - is that a full interest only payment of 380 on a mortgage of 300K. 

Normally in your situation I'd consider this a hard case but it is not after I've analysed it. So what if they sell property 2 and put the lot on your home. Meantime you are living in a house for 380 a month, and that's for 5 of you, don't think anyone else in the country can beat that. Then you'll have a mortgage on your home of 300 + 160 + min 10K in costs = 470K. And it's value is 220K. And what exactly are the bank going to be able to do with your home. Nothing. And even if they did say take it off you? I'm not trying to make light of your situation. Just trying to give you another viewpoint.

I don't think PTSB will go to the expense of putting a judgement mortgage on your home, it would be pointless.


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## robe (10 Jan 2013)

no 1 is with aib and 2 +3 are with ptsb. They are all curently intrest only but not for life, 1+3 are due to go to capital + at the moment. Cant rent 2 but think it should be let shortly at 1200 per month giving 900 to pay into mortgage .. A shortfall of 547. How long will that keep ptsb from the door?? At the moment family home is cheap but add 700 to it once I start to repay capital .. And what happens if they repossess 2.


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## Bronte (11 Jan 2013)

What exactly is it you're worried about. There is no more you can do. You cannot afford to pay back interest only on property 2 so the sooner you get rid of it the better. PTSB cannot get blood from a stone. Are they threatening you, frightening you. If you no longer have property 2 to deal with won't that be a relief in itself. I hope you can see that. 

Right now I cannot see the point of PTSB 'attaching' the negative equity of property 2 onto your home as that too is in massive negative equity. You have to hope that the new insolvency legislation will help you in your dealings with the PTSB.

Is your main worry the family home? Well you've no equity so really you don't own it and are living there very cheaply and this can go on for some time. I realise that's easy for me to say, particularly as people are very attached in particularly to family homes, but on sheer numbers you're not going to lose it anytime soon.


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## robe (11 Jan 2013)

Yes my only worry is the family home, I can afford to make capital repayments on it and it is a great interest rate, but house 2 is on a crazy tracker rate 0f 3.35% above and I think they will saddle me with the 170,000 at the higher rate and if I have being paying capital plus interest on my home will I end up losing the lot ? Its  easily seen that the negative equity on my home will make it unlikely that ptsb will take it. But for how long ? Can they decide in say 10 years that there is some equity and take it then ?


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## robe (13 Dec 2013)

Hi again over a year has passed , and I am now deeper in debt and have arrears on both buy to lets.(1)AIB BTL owe 250,000 , value 90,000 , paying 480 (net rent) , due 1444 ( capital + interest) ,arrears 11,000 . (2) PTSB BTL owe 416,000,  value 200,000  paying 907(net rent) , due 1400 (interest only) , arrears 16,000. (3) PTSB home owe 300,000 , value 200,000 , paying 277 (interest only) , due 277 ,no arrears.(4) visa owe 15100 paying agreed 100 interest stopped. (5) loans to parents 5500.
income 34,000 spouse 16,000.
I can't get banks to agree with a sustainable plan so am thinking of the personal insolvency route .... any thoughts ??


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## robe (17 Nov 2015)

Hi again . It's two years on and I think I'm no better off. I've been trying to come to a sustainable arrangement with ptsb but I'm not getting any where.
I approached ptsb through a pip to try and arrange an informal pia. This was back in December 2013 and with a few back and forths it was decided that the btl s should be sold . Ptsb btl sold with a shortfall of €160,000 with the risidual debt to be sorted at a later date.  Aib btl sold with a shortfall of €140,000 and that shortfall was sorted with a full and final payment.  This was February 2015.
Since then I sent in an sfs and supporting documents to ptsb looking for a write down on the btl and a restructure on my ppr .
There is a cross charge on both properties.
My ppr is worth €190,000 with a mortgage of €300, 000 with a tracker of 0.8% above ecb . I'm currently paying interest only €212 pm remaining term 26 years.
The shortfall on the btl €160,000 with a tracker of 3.35% above ecb currently not paying , but interest only is €455 with 16 years remaining.
My hope was to pay €800 pm as my sfs shows I can afford into my ppr and pay an amount  €6000 as a full and final payment for the btl.
The €800 a month would increase as my children leave the education system and hopefully my wages increase.
So ptsb came back with " an interest plus part capital arrangement "
€767 a month for 26 years @ 0.8% above ecb with the balance to be paid off in full at the end of the term , and €420 a month for 16 years @ 3.35% above ecb with the balance to be paid off in full at the end of the term.
So this has me paying €1187 a month for 16 years, ( €800 is what I can afford by sfs) at which stage I'm to repay the remaining balance.
So to summarise I now have a combined mortgage of €460,000 on my ppr valued at €190,000 and in 16 years I'm to repay approx €160,000. Ptsb have said they will not support a pia where I support my adult children in full time education. I have appealed the offer of the interest plus part capital arrangement to the appeals board but it was rejected.
Any ideas please.


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## cremeegg (18 Nov 2015)

Do I have this right.? 

You owe PTSB €160,000 from the shortfall on the sale of a btw. There is an interest rate of 3.35% on this

Your own home has a mortgage of €300,000 with PTSB interest rate ECB+ 0.8%, and they have a charge over the home for the €160,000 as well.

PTSB want €1,187 a month you can afford €800 a month.

This situation will drag on for years, some people hate the idea that there will never be closure, but really does it matter.

My idea is, pay PTSB €800 a month for ever, (which seems to cover the interest and a small bit of capital). They will not be able to repossess your home. See BBs posts on this. If you have any spare money gift it to your children, €3,000 at a time


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## Bronte (18 Nov 2015)

robe said:


> .  Aib btl sold with a shortfall of €140,000 and that shortfall was sorted with a full and final payment.  This was February 2015.
> .



You've lost me here.  What full and final payment?  Have you a letter from AIB saying you owe nothing to them now?


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## robe (18 Nov 2015)

Bronte said:


> You've lost me here.  What full and final payment?  Have you a letter from AIB saying you owe nothing to them now?


Yes I have


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## robe (18 Nov 2015)

cremeegg said:


> Do I have this right.?
> 
> You owe PTSB €160,000 from the shortfall on the sale of a btw. There is an interest rate of 3.35% on this
> 
> ...


Yeah ptsb are looking for a full interest plus part capital payment for the next 16 years at the end of the 16 years they expect the value of the house to have risen by enough that the sales proceeds will repay them in full.


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## 44brendan (18 Nov 2015)

Given the residual balance plus the negative equity on your PDH I would broadly go along with cremegg on this. paying €800 pm or thereabouts will keep you in your home and should be an affordable (rental equivalent ) payment. Given the large negative equity plus the residual balance of the BTL mortgage you are not really in any position to reduce the capital amount owning and tipping at this while putting yourself under financial pressure is unlikely to assist a long term solution.


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## dereko1969 (18 Nov 2015)

If AIB didn't have a cross charge on your PDH then why did you pay them off and not PTSB?
Or am I misreading this?


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## robe (18 Nov 2015)

So if I put in a pia and ptsb refuse it .. I can appeal this and if the appeal fails !  will I be any worse off ?
Or do I have other options. I'm hoping to retire in 20 to 26 years and live out my retirement in my house.


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## robe (18 Nov 2015)

.


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## robe (18 Nov 2015)

dereko1969 said:


> If AIB didn't have a cross charge on your PDH then why did you pay them off and not PTSB?
> Or am I misreading this?


I paid aib off so as they would write off the bulk of the risidual debt and I was expecting ptsb to follow suit .


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## robe (12 Feb 2016)

Hi again. I signed the interest and part capital arrangement with ptsb. This has me paying  €1187 a month for 6 months and then pretty much an interest only payment of €640 a month there after.  Reviewed every 3 years.
So ptsb have a combined mortgage of €463,000 secured on a property valued at €185,000 . I am to repay €163,000 in 17 years . Which will mean selling the house in 17 years but in the interim I pay less than what I would if I was to rent .
We have a joint income of €50 k and I am still considering a formal pia. 
Advice on what to do ? I do if at all possible want to keep the house.
The mortgage to rent scheme looks interesting but think my income will put me outside it's remit.


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