# David Quinn on housing on Pat Kenny on Newstalk



## Brendan Burgess (18 Sep 2017)

David Quinn and Peter McVerry were on Pat Kenny this morning.  It was great to hear someone else raising their head above the parapet on housing issues. 

David Quinn said: 

Some people are playing the system. They are living with their mother, but they make themselves homeless so that they get priority on the housing list.

3,000 social housing offers have been turned down in the last two years. 20% of Dublin City Council offers have been turned down. The refusal rate in Cork is 40%. People are holding out for the perfect house. Cork City Council estimated that only 10% of refusals were justified.

They turned down offers because they were too small or not close enough to family. Those who rent or buy their own homes, can't make these choices.

Peter McVerry responded
1) There is gaming of every system, but that does not mean that everyone is gaming the system
2) Refusals have reduced since the new system was introduced where the Council lists available places online and people can choose them
3) It doesn't matter if people refuse an offer - the house will go to someone else.

Brendan


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## Brendan Burgess (18 Sep 2017)

Pat Kenny read out a few messages. One was critical of Quinn on some vague grounds of it being heartless.  The others were in full support.   One woman had relocated 5 times for work, yet those on social housing expect to be housed wherever they want. 

Brendan


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## Delboy (18 Sep 2017)

Cork CC listed some reasons a couple of years as to why so many houses were being turned down in their area. One of the best I recall was that the back garden wasn't big enough for a kids trampoline.

I have no doubt that many people now see an opportunity and are being actively encouraged by family/the homeless industry to declare themselves homeless. They may currently be living in less than ideal conditions i.e. using the spare room in their parents house and the current housing frenzy has given them an opportunity to jump the housing list.
How many are doing this, we'll never know. But this being Ireland and with the attitude of a hard core in the state to getting everything for free, I'm sure this current crisis is being gamed to some degree.


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## torblednam (19 Sep 2017)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Pat Kenny read out a few messages. One was critical of Quinn on some vague grounds of it being heartless.  The others were in full support.   One woman had relocated 5 times for work, yet those on social housing expect to be housed wherever they want.
> 
> Brendan



You haven't told us what Quinn said, so it's impossible to know whether my sympathies lie with him or with his critics...


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## Brendan Burgess (19 Sep 2017)

Hi mandlebrot

I have edited the original post to make it clearer.  

Brendan


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## Delboy (19 Sep 2017)

Just listening back to that report and picked out 1 interesting stat.
28% of the 90k+ on the housing waiting list are non-nationals. 20% of them are EU citizens and 8% are from outside the EU.

I recall a Dail question from a few years ago about the housing waiting list in Fingal Co Co. The response was that nearly 50% of the waiting list there was made up of non-nationals.


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## JohnJay (19 Sep 2017)

Delboy said:


> Just listening back to that report and picked out 1 interesting stat.
> 28% of the 90k+ on the housing waiting list are non-nationals. 20% of them are EU citizens and 8% are from outside the EU.
> 
> I recall a Dail question from a few years ago about the housing waiting list in Fingal Co Co. The response was that nearly 50% of the waiting list there was made up of non-nationals.



i wonder how many Irish nationals occupy social housing in the UK and other countries?


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## T McGibney (19 Sep 2017)

JohnJay said:


> i wonder how many Irish nationals occupy social housing in the UK and other countries?


Irish are not counted as non-nationals in the UK. They automatically enjoy precisely the same rights and responsibilities as English, Welsh and Scottish people.


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## Delboy (19 Sep 2017)

JohnJay said:


> i wonder how many Irish nationals occupy social housing in the UK and other countries?


Off you go and research it.
You can start a new thread on it as well as this one relates to the social housing crisis in Ireland


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## Brendan Burgess (19 Sep 2017)

Delboy said:


> Off you go and research it.
> You can start a new thread on it as well as this one relates to the social housing crisis in Ireland



To be fair to JohnJay, I do think it's relevant to this thread.

When someone says:  "We don't want all those foreigners coming in here taking our jobs, our housing and our women", it's reasonable to ask to what extent is it balanced out by Irish people going to other countries and taking their jobs, housing and women.

Brendan


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## cremeegg (19 Sep 2017)

Are the council giving out women now as well?

That will get a few votes.


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## Delboy (19 Sep 2017)

Brendan Burgess said:


> To be fair to JohnJay, I do think it's relevant to this thread.
> 
> When someone says:  "We don't want all those foreigners coming in here taking our jobs, our housing and our women", it's reasonable to ask to what extent is it balanced out by Irish people going to other countries and taking their jobs, housing and women.
> 
> Brendan


Personally I don't, as this thread relates to Ireland and social housing here. Referring to Irish abroad in social housing is whataboutery. 
But I don't want to go off topic. I just thought that was an interesting stat as we rarely see much analysis of the 90k that make  up the housing list. Unfortunately, the merest mention of migration (except in a positive light) is too much of a sacred cow for many and a shutdown is quickly attempted.


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## cremeegg (19 Sep 2017)

An analysis of the 90k on the housing list would indeed make very interesting reading.

So far as I know many, if not most, of the people on the list are people who put their names down when they turn 18, then are happy to wait 10 years or what ever until they get to the top of the list and receive a house.  Council houses are available to anybody for the asking if you can wait long enough.

A single person with a NET income of €35,000 is eligible in the cities.  

http://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/def...ing/Housing/table_with_2016_income_limits.pdf


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## Early Riser (19 Sep 2017)

Delboy said:


> Just listening back to that report and *picked out 1 interesting stat.*
> 28% of the 90k+ on the housing waiting list are non-nationals. 20% of them are EU citizens and 8% are from outside the EU.



And I wonder how many EU citizens are employed in minimum wage jobs in Ireland ? Visit a hotel and who are you likely to find cleaning your room, cleaning the toilets, etc? And I'm sure if you went back of house you'd find the same situation there. What about other industries - how many minimum wage europeans are involved in the supply chain of cheap chickens to the supermarkets ? What about market gardening? I don't know where you live but several companies are involved in bin collection around here - I'd say all (or next to all) the guys on the lorries are foreign nationals.How about contract cleaners?

Feel free to add to this list.

I'm sure an analysis of the background of employees in our minimum wage industries would provide interesting stats.

I note that there is another thread running where it is suggested that low paid workers should be prioritised for social housing.


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## Brendan Burgess (19 Sep 2017)

Early Riser said:


> I note that there is another thread running where it is suggested that low paid workers should be prioritised for social housing.



Hi Early Riser

A very good point.

I would allocate housing to someone collecting my bins ahead of someone on social welfare, irrespective of nationality. 

But I suspect that if location of work was a criterion for the allocation of social housing, a lot of Irish  people would find jobs and get off the dole.

Brendan


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## Delboy (19 Sep 2017)

Early Riser said:


> And I wonder how many EU citizens are employed in minimum wage jobs in Ireland ? Visit a hotel and who are you likely to find cleaning your room, cleaning the toilets, etc? And I'm sure if you went back of house you'd find the same situation there. What about other industries - how many minimum wage europeans are involved in the supply chain of cheap chickens to the supermarkets ? What about market gardening? I don't know where you live but several companies are involved in bin collection around here - I'd say all (or next to all) the guys on the lorries are foreign nationals.How about contract cleaners?
> 
> Feel free to add to this list.
> 
> ...


Good points and which I fully subscribe to.

The waste industry is a classic example. When I first moved to Dublin, the bin men from what I could see were middle aged Irish corpo workers. You never saw them running after lorries or from bin to bin! But they earned a living and probably had mortgages/families being supported etc.
A privatisation later and the workers are all young Eastern Europeans probably on minimum wage who sprint around the place. I'm sure when they are too wrecked from the work, a new supply is coming behind them. Their wages aren't enough to keep them going in Dublin so they live in crowded houses or need 2nd jobs. They put themselves on the housing list as they don't earn enough.

Private industry wins out and the Irish state/taxpayer probably gets hit on several fronts...more pressure on housing and housing costs from immigration, wages having to be topped up through the likes of FIS and the former workers now probably on the dole/FIS as they're too young for the pension, too old to get a 2nd job in a lot of cases.


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## galway_blow_in (19 Sep 2017)

Delboy said:


> Just listening back to that report and picked out 1 interesting stat.
> 28% of the 90k+ on the housing waiting list are non-nationals. 20% of them are EU citizens and 8% are from outside the EU.
> 
> I recall a Dail question from a few years ago about the housing waiting list in Fingal Co Co. The response was that nearly 50% of the waiting list there was made up of non-nationals.



yes but never a pip about this from the various left wing political parties , doctor rory ahearne never stops banging on about social housing yet has never once observed the factor of immigration ,  its not a case of looking for a scapegoat but facts must be noted when it comes to policy making , immigrants will overwhelmingly move to urban areas in a new country , this obviously puts pressure on housing , especially in lower income neighbourhoods


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## galway_blow_in (19 Sep 2017)

Delboy said:


> Good points and which I fully subscribe to.
> 
> The waste industry is a classic example. When I first moved to Dublin, the bin men from what I could see were middle aged Irish corpo workers. You never saw them running after lorries or from bin to bin! But they earned a living and probably had mortgages/families being supported etc.
> A privatisation later and the workers are all young Eastern Europeans probably on minimum wage who sprint around the place. I'm sure when they are too wrecked from the work, a new supply is coming behind them. Their wages aren't enough to keep them going in Dublin so they live in crowded houses or need 2nd jobs. They put themselves on the housing list as they don't earn enough.
> ...




havent seen a bin collector who was irish in years , truck driving has also become an industry where eastern europeans dominate , wages have severely dropped , attitude of hauliers is if someone wont drive ninety hours in two weeks , a pole or lithuanian happily will , most truck drivers are earning about minimum wage when you bear in mind how many hours they do in reality


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## Mrs Vimes (21 Sep 2017)

Delboy said:


> The waste industry is a classic example. When I first moved to Dublin, the bin men from what I could see were middle aged Irish corpo workers. You never saw them running after lorries or from bin to bin! But they earned a living and *probably had mortgages*/families being supported etc.
> A privatisation later and the workers are all young Eastern Europeans probably on minimum wage who sprint around the place. I'm sure when they are too wrecked from the work, a new supply is coming behind them. Their wages aren't enough to keep them going in Dublin so they live in crowded houses or need 2nd jobs. They put themselves on the housing list as they don't earn enough.
> 
> Private industry wins out and the Irish state/taxpayer probably gets hit on several fronts...more pressure on housing and housing costs from immigration, wages having to be topped up through the likes of FIS and the former workers now probably on the dole/FIS as they're too young for the pension, too old to get a 2nd job in a lot of cases.



I don't know when you moved to Dublin, but my father used to say that when he was a young man only professionals got mortgages, bank managers would have a heart attack at the idea of Corpo workers borrowing that kind of money.
"My old man's a dustman/He wears a dustman's hat/He wears cor-blimey trousers/And he lives in a Council flat"

What I'm saying is that traditionally council houses *were *for low-earning workers who needed to be near enough their jobs. A large expensive city will always need binmen, cleaners, childminders, shop-workers, etc


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## Early Riser (21 Sep 2017)

Mrs Vimes said:


> I don't know when you moved to Dublin, but my father used to say that when he was a young man only professionals got mortgages, bank managers would have a heart attack at the idea of Corpo workers borrowing that kind of money.
> "My old man's a dustman/He wears a dustman's hat/He wears cor-blimey trousers/And he lives in a Council flat"
> 
> What I'm saying is that traditionally council houses *were *for low-earning workers who needed to be near enough their jobs. A large expensive city will always need binmen, cleaners, childminders, shop-workers, etc



All very true, Mrs Vimes. But you are spoiling the narrative.


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## Delboy (21 Sep 2017)

What narrative?
I agree, Dublin city should not become another London with all bar high paid professionals priced out of the housing market. 

But I'd be quiet sure that most of the Corpo bin men back in the day were able to afford their own gaffs. Dublin Corpo would'nt be a low paying job hence they've trie to outsource so much of their activites


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## TheBigShort (27 Sep 2017)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Some people are playing the system. They are living with their mother, but they make themselves homeless so that they get priority on the housing list.



Yes they are, that is true no doubt, but as McVerry pointed out, all systems are played by some or other. For the record, when I say 'played', I mean using the system to gain unfair or disproportionate favour but at all times within the rules.



Brendan Burgess said:


> 3,000 social housing offers have been turned down in the last two years. 20% of Dublin City Council offers have been turned down. The refusal rate in Cork is 40%. People are holding out for the perfect house. Cork City Council estimated that only 10% of refusals were justified.



How many of these refusals are by people who are living with their mother but make themselves homeless?
Relative to people who are working, and living with parents but turned down the accommodation because of location, conditions of accommodation etc?

The point is, the increasing housing crisis is not solely on foot of people 'gaming' the system - it is unlikely in my view that there was a sudden increase of gamers that propelled this crisis. These people make good headlines and provoke outcry, but in real terms they are a tiny portion of the housing problem.
I would hazard a guess, based on the housing crash, that the bulk of new people/families on the housing list is account of working people who lost jobs and subsequently homes, and are trying desperately to get back into some form of reasonable accommodation that they can accept - ie they refuse to be housed in traditional social housing estates where there is a level of known social disadvantage, whether that disadvantage is real or not.
Comments like this in the, now locked, other thread about housing indicates that I may not be far off the mark?

"_Whilst it is welcome news for those on a waiting list, I would be very surprised if there was a rush by private house buyers to buy in a development where over half the units (79+15+58) are likely to be social units."_


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## Firefly (27 Sep 2017)

Mrs Vimes said:


> What I'm saying is that traditionally council houses *were *for low-earning workers who needed to be near enough their jobs. A large expensive city will always need binmen, cleaners, childminders, shop-workers, etc



This kinda fits with Brendan's suggestion that council houses in urban areas should be for those actually working there. Nice to see you get a few likes from our lefties too!


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## TheBigShort (27 Sep 2017)

Firefly said:


> This kinda fits with Brendan's suggestion that council houses in urban areas should be for those actually working there. Nice to see you get a few likes from our lefties too!



Yes it does, and if you followed that thread you will have noticed that, speaking for myself, I took no issue with low paid workers being prioritized for housing. In fact I support it.
It was the subsequent eviction process of people who weren't working, and the lack of detail, that concerned me and ultimately made Brendans proposal unworkable.

To add further to my previous comment, and to identify the complexities of the housing issue, when living in Dublin was aware of a particular road near city centre that was traditionally occupied by social tenants. In a block row of 10 houses, one of the houses was known as a crack house. Two of the other houses were vacant but boarded up. 
Is there anyone who would think that these two boarded houses would provide suitable accommodation for a low paid working couple, perhaps intending on starting a family, in the vicinity of a crack house? 
Would anyone think it reasonable that someone rejected an offer to be accommodated there?


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## Purple (28 Sep 2017)

TheBigShort said:


> Is there anyone who would think that these two boarded houses would provide suitable accommodation for a low paid working couple, perhaps intending on starting a family, in the vicinity of a crack house?
> Would anyone think it reasonable that someone rejected an offer to be accommodated there?


 So you are saying that the inability or unwillingness of the police and local authority to do their job and close such places is also exacerbating the housing crisis, yes?


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## TheBigShort (28 Sep 2017)

Purple said:


> So you are saying that the inability or unwillingness of the police and local authority to do their job and close such places is also exacerbating the housing crisis, yes?



No. I can't confirm if it is inability, unwillingness, to do their job or if it is willingness and ability to do their job but that ability and willingness is being suffocated by an increasing drug problem in the city, or is it something else.

All I am saying that there are known locations in Dublin City centre (not confined to social housing estates anymore) where junkies shooting-up is quite prevalent or that drug-dealers are regularly present.
In such circumstances, is it unreasonable for a person, or family, on a housing waiting list, to decline an offer of accommodation in close proximity to these known affairs?
In my opinion, it is not unreasonable.
As such, it is one of many factors that make the housing crisis a complex issue.


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## Purple (28 Sep 2017)

TheBigShort said:


> All I am saying that there are known locations in Dublin City centre (not confined to social housing estates anymore) where junkies shooting-up is quite prevalent or that drug-dealers are regularly present.
> In such circumstances, is it unreasonable for a person, or family, on a housing waiting list, to decline an offer of accommodation in close proximity to these known affairs?
> In my opinion, it is not unreasonable.
> As such, it is one of many factors that make the housing crisis a complex issue.


Agreed. It is also another example of the State failing the citizen. The solution offered by the poverty industry is more; more social housing, more money spent, more taxes raised. That suits their agenda but it is wasteful. It would be more productive to close the crack dens and make such housing habitable.


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