# Arthritis Copper Bands



## deanwood (10 Nov 2006)

does anyone know if you can buy copper bracelets for Arthritis that don't stain your hands.


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## ney001 (10 Nov 2006)

Try painting thin coat of clear nail varnish on the back to stop black marks


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## ClubMan (10 Nov 2006)

Or just don't wear the bracelet since it's quite unlikely to be having any  remedial effects:

[broken link removed]



> *Arthritis
> *Consumers spend an estimated $2 billion a year on unproven arthritis      remedies - thousands of dietary and so-called natural cures, like mussel      extract, desiccated liver XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX, shark cartilage, CMO (cetylmyristoleate),      honey and vinegar mixtures, and magnets and copper bracelets. But these      remedies are not backed by adequate science to show that they offer      long-term relief. For current, accurate information on arthritis treatments      and alternative therapies, call the Arthritis Foundation at 1-800-283-7800      or visit its website at www.arthritis.org.


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## tallpaul04 (10 Nov 2006)

I think they do work. according to both my dad and uncle plumbers never get atthritis as they work with copper all day. (i am open to correction, does anyone know a plumber with arthritis?)


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## ClubMan (10 Nov 2006)

Can you point to some independent, objective, scientific research that substantiates the claim that they work please?


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## room305 (10 Nov 2006)

ney001 said:


> Try painting thin coat of clear nail varnish on the back to stop black marks



Surely this negates the point of wearing copper? Although probably lost in folklore at this stage, the original idea of wearing copper bracelets was so that the copper would be gradually absorbed by the skin, easing or preventing arthritis.


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## runner (10 Nov 2006)

You would be as well off wearing an elastic band!
This is just another example of voodoo science.


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## Brianp (10 Nov 2006)

tallpaul04 said:


> I think they do work. according to both my dad and uncle plumbers never get atthritis as they work with copper all day. (i am open to correction, does anyone know a plumber with arthritis?)


 
Placebo effect never fails!


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## Brouhahaha (10 Nov 2006)

Brianp said:


> Placebo effect never fails!



Even if it's a placebo effect isn't that better than no effect at all? Know rational people that swear by them.


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## kennedy (11 Nov 2006)

Brianp said:


> Placebo effect never fails!


 
There speaks someone who evidently has no understanding of the potentially powerfully positive effect of placebos (forgive the unintentional alliteration). And your eyes to heaven smilie actually makes me sick. I mention my uncle in another post, he's dying from cancer, placebos gave him an extra four to five months of hopeful and happy living because he believed the tablets he was taking were curing him - they weren't, they were placebos, but they gave him hope, when there actually was none, so he got added time that he was able to enjoy. You're blessed not to have any experience of the pain of watching a loved one go through this - if you _did_ have any experience you wouldn't have posted such a smart-arsed, smirk-laden post about placebos. To hell with you. 

(Ban me if you choose, but think about banning Brianp too, his post was infinitely more hurtful, ignorant and offensive than mine).


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## tallpaul04 (11 Nov 2006)

kennedy said:


> There speaks someone who evidently has no understanding of the potentially powerfully positive effect of placebos (forgive the unintentional alliteration). And your eyes to heaven smilie actually makes me sick. I mention my uncle in another post, he's dying from cancer, placebos gave him an extra four to five months of hopeful and happy living because he believed the tablets he was taking were curing him - they weren't, they were placebos, but they gave him hope, when there actually was none, so he got added time that he was able to enjoy. You're blessed not to have any experience of the pain of watching a loved one go through this - if you _did_ have any experience you wouldn't have posted such a smart-arsed, smirk-laden post about placebos. To hell with you.
> 
> (Ban me if you choose, but think about banning Brianp too, his post was infinitely more hurtful, ignorant and offensive than mine).


 

well said. 

who gives anyone the right to dismiss a cure or remedy to any disease or ailment, the power of the mind is unknown hence palcebos may work for some people and not others. 

You never should never put such a trival thing like wearing a copper braclet down..... at the worst all it is is a fashion statement, at its best it could save you from a disease. 

 I'll ask my question again does anyone know of a plumber with arthritis?


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## Brianp (11 Nov 2006)

kennedy said:


> There speaks someone who evidently has no understanding of the potentially powerfully positive effect of placebos .
> 
> I do, my dad died in july .... You took my comment and changed it to suit your argument. It was by no means hurtful or meant to hurt you.
> I work with the placebo effect and have seen it work on most occasions.. In my o_pinion_ copper bracelets work by this effect, and that was the _only_ point i was trying to make.
> ...


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## kennedy (11 Nov 2006)

Brianp said:


> kennedy said:
> 
> 
> > There speaks someone who evidently has no understanding of the potentially powerfully positive effect of placebos .
> ...


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## Brianp (11 Nov 2006)

kennedy said:


> Brianp said:
> 
> 
> > I apologise for the tone of my response to you, it was stupid and offensive and I regret it. My point was simply that if you can be so flippant about the power of placebos - which you were, and not just in relation to these copper bracelets, you made a general remark dismissing placebos - then you couldn't possibly understand the role they play in keeping up the spirits of someone with a terminal illness. Because this is a major issue in my life at the moment, with an uncle I am extremely close to, I am overly sensitive on the subject and, so, responded with venom to your comment. Again, I apologise.
> ...


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## MOB (11 Nov 2006)

By way of general observation only folks, there is a structural problem in our medical industry.  Only drugs which can be patented (and therefore yield a profitable income stream) ever get the investment needed to go through full clinical testing.  Directly or indirectly, virtually all major clinical trials are funded by the pharma industry.  This means that many traditional remedies are never going to be 'proven' to work in the same way as many patented drugs are 'proven' to work.  

There is a big difference between "Proven not to work" and "Not proven to work".   The former is the sneering statement which is regrettably common from conventional medicine, but when you research, you will usually find that the latter is what they mean, and that statement is usually only fully true by applying a standard\methodology of proof which will never be economically viable for a non-patentable therapy.

I prefer to apply the following evaluation test to so-called 'alternative' treatments:

1. Has it been shown to do any physical harm?
2. Are there any studies - (even if not of FDA standard) which show some benefit?

If the answer to Q.1 is no and the answer to Q.2 is yes, I would be slow to dismiss a treatment.   

Copper bracelets pass this test.   

www.thorne.com/altmedrev/fulltext/arth4-6.html

"Folk wisdom teaches that wearing a copper bracelet can relieve arthritic symptoms. While most conventional doctors consider that claim to be nonsense, a pilot study indicated that copper bracelets may, indeed, be helpful. Some 160 individuals with arthritis, half of whom had previously worn a copper bracelet, were randomly assigned to one of two groups. Group 1 wore a copper bracelet for one month, and then a placebo bracelet (anodized aluminum resembling copper) for a second month. Group 2 wore the same bracelets in reverse order. Of those patients who noticed a difference between the two bracelets, significantly more preferred copper (p < 0.01) than placebo.23 Previous users of copper bracelets deteriorated significantly during the time they were wearing the placebo bracelet. Interestingly, the weight of the copper bracelets fell by an average of 13 mg during the month they were being worn, suggesting that some copper from the bracelet may have been absorbed through the skin."


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## ClubMan (11 Nov 2006)

tallpaul04 said:


> who gives anyone the right to dismiss a cure or remedy to any disease or ailment


Anybody who feels that promoting quack cures is a dangerous thing. Some people getting placebo relief from whatever they choose is one thing but going on to promote quack remedies with no scientific basis to substantiate the claims of efficacy and making illogical generalisations from anecdotal evidence is quite objectionable to some people.


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## movax (13 Nov 2006)

copper bands = bunkum , quack remedies do not work and are dangerous. There is too much of this nonsense in Ireland at the minute " oh o've got a flu and have had it for 3 weeks but i won't take an antibiotic , i'm gonna go to my therepist and centre myself" , I heard a work mate spout this drivel and nearly dropped with laughter
Somone please make it stop.


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## delgirl (13 Nov 2006)

movax said:


> copper bands = bunkum , quack remedies do not work and are dangerous. There is too much of this nonsense in Ireland at the minute *" oh o've got a flu and have had it for 3 weeks but i won't take an antibiotic , i'm gonna go to my therepist and centre myself"* , I heard a work mate spout this drivel and nearly dropped with laughter.  Somone please make it stop.


I believe it is equally drivel to take an antibiotic for Flu, which is a viral illness, except in order to ward off secondary bacterial infection.


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## jem (13 Nov 2006)

please explain how/why a gp would send a person to a quack" who has teh Cure" to cure wildfire as opposed to treating with antibiotic's. Happened yes , to whom - My late father, cured rappidly, 2nd person also got same time wouldn't go to 7th son of 7th son was on antibiotic for months.


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## MOB (13 Nov 2006)

As a slight aside, there is now a reasonable (and one hopes a growing) body of research which strongly suggests that an antibiotic (particularly a broad spectrum antibiotic) administered in the first six months may greatly increase the risk of a child later developing asthma.   One study measured the risk as having been increased by a factor of up to 11 - I think this was if two doses had been taken in first 12 months.  Google antibiotics and asthma and you can find the studies easily enough.  Sobering stuff.


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## sherib (13 Nov 2006)

> Originally posted by *delgirl*
> I believe it is equally drivel to take an antibiotic for Flu, which is a viral illness, except in order to ward off secondary bacterial infection.


Antibiotics are not prescribed for 'flu per se or to ward off infection (only vaccines can prevent infection). Ideally antibiotics should only be taken when there is evidence of secondary bacterial infection such as purulent sputum or bacterial infection confirmed by cultures from throat swabs or sputums. A prolonged infection might also be thought to indicate secondary infection.

In an ideal world a culture and sensitivity test would indicate the appropriate narrowest spectrum antibiotic. However, cultures do not always yield positive results and in those cases the prescription of an antibiotic would be based on a clinical examination and judgement and possibly a chest Xray when indicated. 

While young children are frequently subject to viral infections, thereby building up immunity, they are also susceptible to secondary bacterial infections and a clinical judgement in those cases would also apply.


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## delgirl (14 Nov 2006)

sherib said:


> Antibiotics are not prescribed for 'flu per se or to ward off infection (only vaccines can prevent infection).


In my experience antibiotics are being prescribed for flu and to prevent secondary bacterial infection. 

Ireland was [broken link removed] as having one of the highest rates of antibiotic prescribing in Europe. A study published in the medical journal The Lancet in 2005 ranked Ireland 11th out of 26 European countries for overall outpatient antibiotic use in 2002.

The rate here in Ireland was nearly 20 defined daily doses per 1000 inhabitants, compared to a high of 32.2 in France and a low of 9.8 in the Netherlands. The UK, meanwhile, had a rate of 14.3 defined daily doses. With prescription rates are higher here than in many other European countries, it seems apparent that many of us may be taking antibiotics unnecessarily. 

Inappropriate prescribing
Diagnostic uncertainty is one reason why a GP or other health professional may prescribe an antibiotic unnecessarily - if a doctor is not 100% sure of a patient's diagnosis, they may reason that the risk of prescribing an unnecessary antibiotic far outweighs the risk of leaving a potential infection untreated.

However, another key factor in antibiotic over-prescribing is patient demand. With many patients paying good money to attend their GP and hoping for a 'quick-fix', as is often the case in today's fast-paced life - it can seem inadequate to be told to go home and simply rest for a week. Patients may only feel satisfied if they have been prescribed a course of antibiotics, and pressure on GPs to do so can be immense.

Taking antibiotics when they are not needed and will not even work - for a cold or flu virus, for example - will only increase the chance of a resistant bacterial strain subsequently developing.

The role that the overuse of antibiotics has played in the surge of the MRSA infection is often overlooked.


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## sherib (14 Nov 2006)

In case anyone is misled, I have to correct delgirl. Antibiotics are not prescribed _to prevent_ infection - they can only treat existing bacterial infection and have no role in prevention. All medical practitioners know that. 

One of the reasons for the emergence of bacterial resistance is due to people failing to complete a course of antibiotics thereby allowing bacteria to survive and develop resistance. Another cause of the development of resistant strains is/was the excessive use of antibiotics in livestock which subsequently enter the human food chain.


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## MOB (15 Nov 2006)

My experience mirrors that of Delgirl.  When diagnosed with flu and\or other viral infections, I have had more than one GP prescribe an antibiotic 'just in case' of secondary infection.  

I should in fairness say that I have a history of getting a nasty ear infection, which takes quite a strong antibiotic to shift, and my current GP would in these circumstances tell me not to fill the prescription unless I went downhill.


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## delgirl (15 Nov 2006)

MOB said:


> My experience mirrors that of Delgirl. When diagnosed with flu and\or other viral infections, I have had more than one GP prescribe an antibiotic 'just in case' of secondary infection.
> 
> I should in fairness say that I have a history of getting a nasty ear infection, which takes quite a strong antibiotic to shift, and my current GP would in these circumstances tell me not to fill the prescription unless I went downhill.


Yes, I should have perhaps expanded that I, and others in my family, have been offered antibiotics when presenting with flu symptoms 'just in case a secondary, bacterial infection occurs'.



			
				sherib said:
			
		

> Antibiotics are not prescribed _to prevent_ infection..


My mother also received long term antibiotic treatment to prevent a chest infection as she suffered from Bronchiectasis.


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## movax (15 Nov 2006)

delgirl said:


> I believe it is equally drivel to take an antibiotic for Flu, which is a viral illness, except in order to ward off secondary bacterial infection.


So in light of the previous 5 or 6 posts is it still drivel del girl?


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## jbro (20 Nov 2006)

Well i happen to know a very strong and healthy man who works in the building trade and swears by them. Now he is realitively young but i reckon, given his belief that he won't suffer from arthritic pains because of the placebo effect. 

Mind over matter is the way to go!! Its all about how and what you think!


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