# Fire Exits in pubs



## podgerodge (17 May 2009)

I was in a pub last night and tried an exit clearly marked as an emergency exit - was locked - (no push bars) I asked a barman who told me to "mind my own business" and when I asked for a manager I got a "manager" who told me I "didn't understand the law" - the "exit" would automatically be opened if the fire alarm went off - I put it to him that if the fire alarm failed this would be an issue and he told me he was legally compliant.  I'm frightened to think that this could be true?


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## Padraigb (17 May 2009)

I have no idea if your concerns in this case are justified.

But you say that you tried to use an emergency exit when, I gather, there was no emergency. It is this sort of behaviour that motivates proprietors or managers of premises to lock or block emergency exits.


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## mathepac (17 May 2009)

podgerodge said:


> I was in a pub last night and tried an exit clearly marked as an emergency exit...


Do you have a question?


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## podgerodge (17 May 2009)

Padraigb said:


> I have no idea if your concerns in this case are justified.
> 
> But you say that you tried to use an emergency exit when, I gather, there was no emergency. It is this sort of behaviour that motivates proprietors or managers of premises to lock or block emergency exits.




You are jumping to conclusions about my 'behaviour'.  I didn't try "to use an emergency exit" by leaving the premises just to cause some trouble as you have quickly assumed.  I said that I "tried an exit".  This was simply because the pub was jam packed and I am a bit conscious of these things (maybe un-necessarily). When I saw an emergency exit with no push bars I simply was curious as to whether it was operational and was surprised when it didn't budge at all.





mathepac said:


> Do you have a question?





podgerodge said:


> .. I put it to him that if the fire alarm failed this would be an issue and he told me he was legally compliant.  I'm frightened to think that this could be true?


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## D8Lady (17 May 2009)

Contact the local fore prevention officer if you are concerned. They have the power to close a place down if its not compliant.


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## tester1 (17 May 2009)

dont know but HSA might like to know too


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## Complainer (17 May 2009)

I think it may well be illegal for a fire exit not to have the push-bar openings, particularly in a public venue such as a pub. Contact a fire officer in your fire service, who should follow up. Might be a good idea to put your complaint in writing or email, so that everyone knows it is 'on the record'.


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## Smashbox (18 May 2009)

There should be a push bar handle and also signs marking the exit as an emergency exit. As above, contact a fire officer in the nearest station, they'd love to hear about this place.


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## mcaul (18 May 2009)

podgerodge said:


> I was in a pub last night and tried an exit clearly marked as an emergency exit - was locked - (no push bars) I asked a barman who told me to "mind my own business" and when I asked for a manager I got a "manager" who told me I "didn't understand the law" - the "exit" would automatically be opened if the fire alarm went off - I put it to him that if the fire alarm failed this would be an issue and he told me he was legally compliant. I'm frightened to think that this could be true?


 
A fire alarm would have a battery back-up system that would allow it to work even if the electricity went. Same goes for emergency lighting.

The fire alarm would have to be certified in order for the pub to have a fire certificate. 

It is very feasable for the fire alarm to be attached to an unlocking system which would automatically unlock all exits once triggered. - If its a large establishment, i'd guess this is the system they use.


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## Smashbox (18 May 2009)

I still think it would be worth a word in the right ear to check it out for sure.


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## mathepac (18 May 2009)

Interesting thread.

OP never asked a question, this is not a question - 





> ...  I'm frightened to think that this could be true?


 and arguably the thread title is meaningless,  but that hasn't prevented a bunch of my fellow AAAMers (6 or 8) rabbiting on about what they think the question was or might have been had OP posed one.

Good stuff but I think the thread belongs in Shooting the Breeze!


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## csirl (18 May 2009)

A lot of fire exits nowdays are locked with magnetic locks which automatically unlock when the fire alarm goes off. As the mag locks require electricity to keep them closed - they use a solenoid magnet? - if the power is cut, then the doors automatically open as the mag lock fails. There is also usually some sort of break glass in case of fire button beside these doors to allow anyone beside the doors to exit quickly in the case of emergency.


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## podgerodge (18 May 2009)

mathepac said:


> Interesting thread.
> 
> OP never asked a question, this is not a question -  and arguably the thread title is meaningless,  but that hasn't prevented a bunch of my fellow AAAMers (6 or 8) rabbiting on about what they think the question was or might have been had OP posed one.
> 
> Good stuff but I think the thread belongs in Shooting the Breeze!



I think the part of the thread contributed to by yourself belongs somewhere else.

I don't agree that your "fellow AAAMers" are rabbiting on about what they think the question was" - it appears to me that they fully understand it.



podgerodge said:


> ...the "exit" would automatically be opened if the fire alarm went off - I put it to him that if the fire alarm failed this would be an issue and he told me he was legally compliant.  I'm frightened to think that this could be true?



Given my poor grasp of the language I made the error of assuming the question mark at the end suggested I wanted to know whether he was legally compliant or not. I should have finished the sentence with a full stop.  And added "Is it?"
Thanks for the other helpful replies.


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## DavyJones (18 May 2009)

podgerodge said:


> You are jumping to conclusions about my 'behaviour'.  I didn't try "to use an emergency exit" by leaving the premises just to cause some trouble as you have quickly assumed.  I said that I "tried an exit".  This was simply because the pub was jam packed and I am a bit conscious of these things (maybe un-necessarily). When I saw an emergency exit with no push bars I simply was curious as to whether it was operational and was surprised when it didn't budge at all.




If I may "rabbit" on a bit. (statement, not a question)

My mate is a Fire Fighter and every time we go anywhere esp pubs, night clubs etc he automatically clocks where all the exits are. He would approach a manager if he saw a locked fire exit.

I see where you are coming from alright.


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## Complainer (19 May 2009)

csirl said:


> A lot of fire exits nowdays are locked with magnetic locks which automatically unlock when the fire alarm goes off. As the mag locks require electricity to keep them closed - they use a solenoid magnet? - if the power is cut, then the doors automatically open as the mag lock fails. There is also usually some sort of break glass in case of fire button beside these doors to allow anyone beside the doors to exit quickly in the case of emergency.


I've seen these mag-locks used to keep internal fire doors open during normal use, and have them close automatically during a fire. I've never seen them used on fire exits.

The Part B fire regs state;



> Exit doors from areas holding more than 50
> people should either be free from fastenings or
> be fitted with panic bolts complying with I.S. EN
> 1125 1997.



As far as I can see, I.S. EN 1125 1997 relates to push bar devices, not mag locks.

Are you sure the mag locks are approved for use on fire exits?


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## 8till8 (19 May 2009)

The doors with magnetic contacts are 'fire doors' and they close in the event of a fire alarm activation to contain smoke etc, they are commonly seen in hotel corridors.
The emergency exit doors are treated differently and there are strict regulations regarding how they can be opened, in lay terms they should be openable by the 'fall of a hand' ie bolts, locks, buttons are not permitted. Equally there is no way a fire alarm or any other device is permitted to control an emergency exit (but they can control fire doors/smoke vents) Therefore it sounds like the OP should make a complaint to the local Fire Officer (number in the phone book) who would very quickly do a site visit and check it out.


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## catmanzu (19 May 2009)

I would also say that, as a customer spending money in their premises you deserved a much better response from both parties. I managed bars and nightclubs for years and all fire exits had to be accessible. Lo-tech push bar systems verses expensive magnetic systems, hmm id say that door was locked and you were perfectly entitled to ask.  Social consiousness may prevent another Stardust tragedy!


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## Smashbox (19 May 2009)

Surely the exits have to be signed as such? Whether they be push bars or anykind of magnet locks.


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## podgerodge (19 May 2009)

Thanks for replies.

The exit in question is in the pub and marked as a "Fire Exit".  Like other posters I checked out the magnetic doors and all references seemed to relate to keeping doors open and closing them in a fire (presumably to keep a fire out rather than in!).

All other sites seem to suggest that push bars or "simple clasps" should be used and easily openable by any user.

I will contact a fire officer and see what they say.

Ta.


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## csirl (20 May 2009)

8till8 said:


> The doors with magnetic contacts are 'fire doors' and they close in the event of a fire alarm activation to contain smoke etc, they are commonly seen in hotel corridors.
> The emergency exit doors are treated differently and there are strict regulations regarding how they can be opened, in lay terms they should be openable by the 'fall of a hand' ie bolts, locks, buttons are not permitted. Equally there is no way a fire alarm or any other device is permitted to control an emergency exit (but they can control fire doors/smoke vents) Therefore it sounds like the OP should make a complaint to the local Fire Officer (number in the phone book) who would very quickly do a site visit and check it out.


 
Are you sure about this? I though it was permissible under fire regulations to have mag lock doors where the mag lock automatically fails when the fire alarm goes off and where a press to exit in case of fire button is provided adjacent to the door.

Coincidently, the office block I work in, which is only 5-6 years old has this type of mag lock with release button on a lot of the emergency exit routes - not on the fire doors in corridors, but on the actual doors from particular areas of the building. I'm not a fire expert, but I have been involved in some major building projects in recent years - my employer has been expanding - and the mag lock with automatic fail/push button seems to be the standard in a lot of recently constructed buildings and these buildings have been inspected by the fire brigade.


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## Complainer (20 May 2009)

csirl said:


> Are you sure about this? I though it was permissible under fire regulations to have mag lock doors where the mag lock automatically fails when the fire alarm goes off and where a press to exit in case of fire button is provided adjacent to the door.
> 
> Coincidently, the office block I work in, which is only 5-6 years old has this type of mag lock with release button on a lot of the emergency exit routes - not on the fire doors in corridors, but on the actual doors from particular areas of the building. I'm not a fire expert, but I have been involved in some major building projects in recent years - my employer has been expanding - and the mag lock with automatic fail/push button seems to be the standard in a lot of recently constructed buildings and these buildings have been inspected by the fire brigade.


Check out the Part B Fire Regs - section 1.4.3.2


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## csirl (20 May 2009)

The exits I'm talking about are not ulitmate exits into the street, and so they (b) rather than (a) exits [possible that the OPs exit is a (b) - may lead into corridor or other area before final exit?]. The question is whether or not you regard a push button to open a mag lock as being as a "simple fastening"? 

My personal opinion, not being a fire expert, is that I'd rather press a simple push button than turn a handle or unlock a fastening - a lot quicker and idiot proof. One big advantage of the mag lock is that there is no bolt or whatever you call the thing which goes into the door frame, so there is no possibility of it jaming/getting stuck.


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## podgerodge (20 May 2009)

csirl said:


> The exits I'm talking about are not ulitmate exits into the street, and so they (b) rather than (a) exits [possible that the OPs exit is a (b) - may lead into corridor or other area before final exit?]. The question is whether or not you regard a push button to open a mag lock as being as a "simple fastening"?
> 
> My personal opinion, not being a fire expert, is that I'd rather press a simple push button than turn a handle or unlock a fastening - a lot quicker and idiot proof. One big advantage of the mag lock is that there is no bolt or whatever you call the thing which goes into the door frame, so there is no possibility of it jaming/getting stuck.



Well the one in the pub that I'm referring to opens onto the street.  And there didn't seem to be any button or anything!


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