# Management Fees for apt too high. Entitled to ask for a detailed breakdown? Appeal?



## accsvalue

I feel that the management fee I'm charged for my apartment is too high. I have a copy of the accounts. Am I entitled to ask for a detailed breakdown of each figure? Is there any way I can appeal?

Thanks in advance


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## mercman

The amount/percentage you are being charged will be in your lease. IMO you are entitled to request information on the breakdown of the figures. I do not think you can appeal if there are no grounds for one. All the other property owners are in the same boat.


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## shesells

accsvalue said:


> I feel that the management fee I'm charged for my apartment is too high. I have a copy of the accounts. Am I entitled to ask for a detailed breakdown of each figure? Is there any way I can appeal?
> 
> Thanks in advance



Have you been to an AGM where the accounts are gone through and the budgets agreed? If not, why not? 

I am an owner/director in our development and it amazes me how people have no idea what the running costs are, people tend to be focussed on their own unit rather than thinking of what's involved in the management of a development AND the protection of your investment. I got involved as a director because I didn't trust anyone else to do that for me. At each budget time we get multiple tenders for each service and if we can, reduce costs and therefore fees. You would see this at AGMs if they are run properly.


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## ontour

accsvalue said:


> I feel that the management fee I'm charged for my apartment is too high. I have a copy of the accounts. Am I entitled to ask for a detailed breakdown of each figure?



Do the accounts not give a breakdown of where the money is spent?  e.g landscaping, lifts, bins, management agent etc.



accsvalue said:


> Is there any way I can appeal?


 
You are responsible for a percentage of the overall budget so the only way to reduce your charge is to reduce the overall costs.  Often management companies do not review their service providers often enough to get the best value.  This is because most of the owners don't get involved in the running of the management company.


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## lantus

The MUD act makes it a legal requirement that at an AGM the proposed annual service charge must be proposed and voted for by a margin of 60% to pass. Not everyone need of attended this of course.

Check that an AGM was held firstly.

Prior to the AGM they should of furnished everyone with accounts and other information (again see MUD act, its a long list.) to give everyone time to review.


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## truthseeker

accsvalue said:


> *I feel that* the management fee I'm charged for my apartment is too high. I have a copy of the accounts. Am I entitled to ask for a detailed breakdown of each figure? Is there any way I can appeal?
> 
> Thanks in advance



Have you information whereby you can get cheaper tenders for work than are currently being used? 

Im sure the management agent would be delighted to hear from you if you did.


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## Fr. Ted

Hi
I got the annual service charge bill and it was €400 more than expected but aside from that the CRO number had too few digits, the management agent wasn't mentioned, I suspect the agent failed to get a licence but has the board rigged, there is a lot of dirty stuff going on there related party transactions and directors not paying themselves that kind of thing.

I don't want to have to waste hours and hours researching and fighting them, its never going to improve and complex has had bad agents for 10 years.  The agent even paid himself 5 grand a year to cut the grass whent there was no grass!!   my question "is it illegal for them to issue a false invoice with a false company number"  can I just report them to the guards or that new property management authority and let them deal with it.Best least hassle route??


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## mercman

Fr. Ted said:


> The agent even paid himself 5 grand a year to cut the grass when there was no grass!!   my question "is it illegal for them to issue a false invoice with a false company number"



You'd be best pointing these matters to the Auditors of the Management Company. They have a purpose and now there is good enough reason to question these expenses.


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## lantus

Fr. Ted said:


> Hi
> I got the annual service charge bill and it was €400 more than expected but aside from that the CRO number had too few digits, the management agent wasn't mentioned, I suspect the agent failed to get a licence but has the board rigged, there is a lot of dirty stuff going on there related party transactions and directors not paying themselves that kind of thing.
> 
> I don't want to have to waste hours and hours researching and fighting them, its never going to improve and complex has had bad agents for 10 years. The agent even paid himself 5 grand a year to cut the grass whent there was no grass!! my question "is it illegal for them to issue a false invoice with a false company number" can I just report them to the guards or that new property management authority and let them deal with it.Best least hassle route??


 
The bill should of been preceeded by the annoucement of an AGM which should of included amongst other things the proposed budget and a detailed breakdown and a list of other statements. This is a legal requirement and you need to get it 21 days prior to the AGM.

At the AGM the members who attend get to vote on the budget and a 60% approval is required to pass the budget. (75% to reject)

After that bills typically get issued.

All of the above is a legal requirement as per the MUD act 2011 and company law. If you didn't get notification of the above then the directors are in breach of company law as they are ultimatley responsible even if the agent is doing it it for them.

As for the licesne of the agent you can check with the prsa who have a list of every agent. You can also contact the agent to clarify that they are complient.

Failure to provide the correct CRO number on any company corespondance is a breach of compan law. It should also have all the names of the directors and the company office.

If you can search on the CRO site to find it you may be able to get more info.

The auditors just check stuff. They dont query its valitidy. i.e. they wont check for grass. just that there is a recepit for cutting t.


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## mercman

lantus said:


> The auditors just check stuff. They dont query its valitidy. i.e. they wont check for grass. just that there is a recepit for cutting t.



I'm afraid that I'll contradict this statement. An audit of a company is vital, so much so that it plays a vital role in the continuation of any corporate entity. The piece hereunder is taken from the Chartered Accountants web site.

_*In today’s economy, information and accountability have assumed a larger role in our society. As a result, the independent audit of an entity’s financial statements is a vital service to investors, creditors, and other participants in economic exchanges.
The auditor communicates audit results in a standard report. The auditor’s is based on rigorous work performed by highly trained professionals.
*_
From what has been posted the poster has serious grounds for questioning the piece outlined and every other piece which appears unjust


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## lantus

mercman said:


> I'm afraid that I'll contradict this statement. An audit of a company is vital, so much so that it plays a vital role in the continuation of any corporate entity. The piece hereunder is taken from the Chartered Accountants web site.
> 
> _*In today’s economy, information and accountability have assumed a larger role in our society. As a result, the independent audit of an entity’s financial statements is a vital service to investors, creditors, and other participants in economic exchanges.*_
> _*The auditor communicates audit results in a standard report. The auditor’s is based on rigorous work performed by highly trained professionals.*_
> 
> From what has been posted the poster has serious grounds for questioning the piece outlined and every other piece which appears unjust


 
By all means challenge the report. Our auditor was next to useless and even told us he had put together an entire years financial statement and accounts based on incomplete records and verbal assurances. When we explained that the landscaping amounts were being incorrectly generated and the agent was manipulating the figures to generate excessive profit they were not interested.

When we explained that the fire alarm contract was fraud because the builder had not even installed it they just politley said goodbye and hung up. Not quite the high standards of accountability we were expecting either.


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## mercman

I'm not here to argue with you for one iota. I see similar occurrences in developments where I have apartments. But in a single case where I am involved when I questioned a portion of some of the Agents Bills, they have tendered their resignation. A majority vote from other owners as most of the owners are old was impossible. He's got away with creative accounting for which I certainly will not be paying Management Fees for last year or this year or in fact next year. I want them to sue me to bring the entire to a head for once and for all.


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## Dermot

mercman said:


> . He's got away with creative accounting for which I certainly will not be paying Management Fees for last year or this year or in fact next year. I want them to sue me to bring the entire to a head for once and for all.



I am an owner of a property where a management company is involved. It is absolutely impossible to handle the Dr's and an accountant without integrity. The members are by and large disillusioned and now will take no interest.  A few of us are now not paying the fees and hope to be taken to court in the next year or so. The Dr's have no hope of justifying 90% of the fee. That is the truth. Receipts showing the expenses over a seven year period have been refused. The other option under consideration is trying to get the revenue to do an audit because the headings under which they are manufacturing the management fee is absolutely bogus. I am quite familiar with the mud act while no one else seems to have any interest. When you engage with them quoting the mud act Dr's just walk out after being abusive. No body wants to get involved other than myself but it would be absolutely impossible ton work with current directors. So like mercman I want them to sue.


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## mercman

Dermot, the problem is that the owners actually own the development. There is a long history of the MC allowing the lease terms to be broken, then not having a Court Order implemented. Acoustic tests by engineers have showed the noise was outside any kind of control and I was unable to let my property for 6 years. But the MA was allowed do what he wished. Mad but true.


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## lantus

Dermot said:


> I am an owner of a property where a management company is involved. It is absolutely impossible to handle the Dr's and an accountant without integrity. The members are by and large disillusioned and now will take no interest. A few of us are now not paying the fees and hope to be taken to court in the next year or so. The Dr's have no hope of justifying 90% of the fee. That is the truth. Receipts showing the expenses over a seven year period have been refused. The other option under consideration is trying to get the revenue to do an audit because the headings under which they are manufacturing the management fee is absolutely bogus. I am quite familiar with the mud act while no one else seems to have any interest. When you engage with them quoting the mud act Dr's just walk out after being abusive. No body wants to get involved other than myself but it would be absolutely impossible ton work with current directors. So like mercman I want them to sue.


 
I can totally sympathise with your situation. We were in the same situation. It feels like you have no power because like you say they just walk away. It takes time and determination to change the people in charge and the culture for the better. People not liking the current situation is one thing but while we have all been brought up to copmplain the ability to generate solutions seems less forthcoming. The fact that your fellow residents dont want to engage is symptomatic of this but they need to change their behaviour if they want a better estate to live in and potentially a better annual service fee.

It is bewildering that more people dont educate themselves as to the situation they are in and the relevant laws and regulations and how it affects them personally. For most apartment owners this would seem to be an essential requirement and yet many are totally uninterested.

Sueing could be a very difficult situation as you are member of the company and so in part you are suing yourself. There is the option of suing the directors personally but you really need good proof and a solid case to do this. The law tends to take the side of directors unless negligence can be proven. Its also incredibly expensive.

The solution.....Organise the residents and try to engage with them and get them on board. Form a small commitee and with this nucleus work to get the support of the community. (how many units are there?)

Put together clear goals on what you want and how you will get them. Formally write to the directors registered post highlighting your concerns and all the 'proof and vidence you have.' copy in the chartered accountants discipline board and the ODCE and make a complaint to them seperatley. 

Have you had an AGM or a budget proposal? If yes then why did you approve it. If no then any request for payment is illegal and you need to make this clear in your letter and to all the other residents.

For the big budget sums have you sought competative prices off your own back to use a leverage? If an agent is being used then fee's of 9 to 15 thousand are not unusual. This is the fee just for the agent to do the work, not including all the other essentials that need addressing.

Getting you and a few others to become directors can work well as any good will and support you build up on your journey is positive collateral in moving forward and the ongoing support of the residents. People are more likely to trust one of their own who has fought for them. But it takes time and wont happen overnight. It has taken us 3 years to get where we are now with a B10 form with my name on it just recently posted on cro. It will take another 3 years to turn around the estate and get it where it should be.

I would not advise non payment. Courts wont generally question the validity of the payment only how you can pay. Take legal advice on this before you suffer a judgement against you and possible a damaged credit rating.

But by all means fight against an unjust payment. Again, let us know if the correct procedure has been followed in terms of budget approval.


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## lantus

mercman said:


> I'm not here to argue with you for one iota. I see similar occurrences in developments where I have apartments. But in a single case where I am involved when I questioned a portion of some of the Agents Bills, they have tendered their resignation. A majority vote from other owners as most of the owners are old was impossible. He's got away with creative accounting for which I certainly will not be paying Management Fees for last year or this year or in fact next year. I want them to sue me to bring the entire to a head for once and for all.


 
Not here to argue either and based on your advice I will see if I can take it further with our auditor as I was not aware of this so thank you.

Again I would ask have you received notification of an AGM and all the required supporting documentation as per the MUD act. Its a legal requirement and 60% of the members at the AGM must approve it before any bills can be send out.

You are quite right to query all costs if they seem wrong or expensive. Put together everything in writing and send registered post to the agent and directors. Any costs you can get from other companies can be used as leverage as long as they are comparable.

As per my other post if you receive a judgement against you for non payment and a damaged credit rating it only hurts you, not the company or the directors who took you to court. Bear that in mind and get solid legal advice.

The solution under company law is to replace the directors. You can do this via an AGM or an EGM. It will require the members support and involvement. If the members are 'old' this shouldn't preclude them from thinking or wanting a fair system and reduced service fee's. It may just take time to get them fired up for battle.

Let us know how it goes


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## mercman

lantus said:


> When we explained that the fire alarm contract was fraud because the builder had not even installed it they just politley said goodbye and hung up.



As a point of note, it is pointless and of no effect to telephone making a point or a complaint. A paper trail is required where you place your investigations in writing and a reply becomes obligatory. Unless you are seeking personal satisfaction to let off hot air, you are wasting your time.


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## Vanessa

mercman said:


> I'm not here to argue with you for one iota. I see similar occurrences in developments where I have apartments. But in a single case where I am involved when I questioned a portion of some of the Agents Bills, they have tendered their resignation. A majority vote from other owners as most of the owners are old was impossible. He's got away with creative accounting for which I certainly will not be paying Management Fees for last year or this year or in fact next year. I want them to sue me to bring the entire to a head for once and for all.


 
Dont be under the illusion that not paying your fees will get you answers. The only way is by using the law at AGMs in accordance with the MUD Act. If then you get no satisfdaction you should progress matters via the CRO, Property Regulator etc. This will need the support of other shareholders.
Unfortunately too many owners/shareholders do n ot attend AGM or take any interest in their company.


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## markpb

To reiterate what Vanessa said, a district court case for mon payment of fees will not help you. The judge won't ask why you didn't pay, they won't ask if you disagree with the budget or service. They'll ask if you signed a lease agreeing to pay.

You may separately bring a case against the company airing your grievances under the companies acts or the MUD act but it will be completely independent of the non payment case.


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## LeoD

lantus said:


> The bill should of been preceeded by the annoucement of an AGM which should of included amongst other things the proposed budget and a detailed breakdown and a list of other statements. This is a legal requirement and you need to get it 21 days prior to the AGM.



I didn't want to start a new thread as this is kinda related and I can't find a clear/simple answer anywhere but what if a management company doesn't announce an AGM but still holds it and passes a budget for the coming year? Is the AGM and any decisions made simply invalid/illegal? Should a new AGM be scheduled or an EGM called?


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## shesells

The Management Company is obliged by law to notify all members of the company of an AGM. Ideally it should be a letter to each member but I've seen it in newsletters and on noticeboards in common areas. Effort should be made to contact all members. If this didn't happen you can apply to have the AGM declared invalid.


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## LeoD

Thanks. Basically we received a notification for our _Development Name _Resident's Association AGM which I had no interest in attending but it turned out on the night to be the _Development Name _Management Company AGM. I believe the mistake was deliberate in an attempt to reduce the number of attendees so that a very dodgy service charge could be pushed through for 2013.


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## lantus

LeoD said:


> Thanks. Basically we received a notification for our _Development Name _Resident's Association AGM which I had no interest in attending but it turned out on the night to be the _Development Name _Management Company AGM. I believe the mistake was deliberate in an attempt to reduce the number of attendees so that a very dodgy service charge could be pushed through for 2013.


 
If you received written notification and other members also received this (i.e. it was across the board and not just limited to you and a one off mistake) then I'd say this was pretty serious. A residents association is an entirely different body to a company and to infer one is the other is quite an omission. Difficult to write off as a genuine mistake. Legally you could infer that a meeting for the company was in fact never even called although that statement does not constitute legal advice.

Section 17 and 18 of the MUD act outlines the other documents that should be provided to members as part of the AGM documentation. It should arrive at least 21 days before any proposed meeting and include the past years accounts and financial report as well as a detailed breakdown of the budget proposed for the coming year. This needs to be approved and voted for by the memebers at the meeting. Did you even get any of this?

So, go and check with some neighbours if you can to make sure it is across the board. if you can request the minutes of the meeting from the company to see what happened, who attended and how business was conducted.

You can contact the ODCE to apply to have the AGM rendered invalid. You will need scanned copies of the documentation issued to you as well as proof (typically) you are a member of the company like a certificate or lease document. If you can get other members to do this independant of you so the ODCE receives multiple complaints then it should hopefully strengthen your case.

Thats damm sneaky indeed.


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## LeoD

Thanks. Everyone received the same 'notification'. The reason I ignored it was that apart from the incorrect name, it didn't include:
- an agenda
- descriptions of any special business to be discussed (which was subsequently discussed at the meeting)
- proxy forms
- directors reports
- auditors reports
- accounts
- budget proposal

All it said was that the management company was holding the *resident's association AGM* (which of course makes no sense). One crappy page with a few lines on it slipped through the letterbox - that's all! The only contact details given was a solicitor's office address (the MC's registered address) so I called them twice to seek clarification on the notice. On both occasions they refused to clarify what AGM was being held - on my first call they didn't know what I was talking about. The impression I got was that the notice had not originated from them (I think the builder is at the heart of all this). Their only response was to say I should go to the meeting. The whole thing was a shambles. I received a copy of the minutes of the meeting afterwards - completely shambolic in keeping with the notification process. I have contacted the management company and requested copies of previously submitted accounts and articles of association - no response. Whatever about the builder trying to pull a fast one, I don't understand how any legal firm can stand over this carry on.


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## lantus

LeoD said:


> Thanks. Everyone received the same 'notification'. The reason I ignored it was that apart from the incorrect name, it didn't include:
> - an agenda
> - descriptions of any special business to be discussed (which was subsequently discussed at the meeting)
> - proxy forms
> - directors reports
> - auditors reports
> - accounts
> - budget proposal
> 
> All it said was that the management company was holding the *resident's association AGM* (which of course makes no sense). One crappy page with a few lines on it slipped through the letterbox - that's all! The only contact details given was a solicitor's office address (the MC's registered address) so I called them twice to seek clarification on the notice. On both occasions they refused to clarify what AGM was being held - on my first call they didn't know what I was talking about. The impression I got was that the notice had not originated from them (I think the builder is at the heart of all this). Their only response was to say I should go to the meeting. The whole thing was a shambles. I received a copy of the minutes of the meeting afterwards - completely shambolic in keeping with the notification process. I have contacted the management company and requested copies of previously submitted accounts and articles of association - no response. Whatever about the builder trying to pull a fast one, I don't understand how any legal firm can stand over this carry on.


 
Looks like you have a good case. Did they vote in a budget? What did the minutes say in regards to this? 60% approval of all the members present? Your Articles can be obtained from the cro for a few quid if you know your company number.

Contact ODCE and highlight failure to provide correct notification of an AGM and failure to provide AGM documentation to members under sections 17 and 18 of the MUD act (they may not consider this last point a company issue related to ODCE enforcement as its a seperate statute and seperate to the companies act so dont be too upset if they disregard it. The notification should be more than enough.)


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## LeoD

lantus said:


> Did they vote in a budget?



No. They only 'elected' a committee who would take care of things. This committee then met in Jan and decided who would be secretary, chairman, treasurer and PRO (yes, a PRO!!). This committee then decided among themselves what the budget would be for 2013. The whole thing would be hilarious if it wasn't so serious.


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## lantus

LeoD said:


> No. They only 'elected' a committee who would take care of things. This committee then met in Jan and decided who would be secretary, chairman, treasurer and PRO (yes, a PRO!!). This committee then decided among themselves what the budget would be for 2013. The whole thing would be hilarious if it wasn't so serious.


 
Are you sure this isn't just the RA? treasurer is not a typical ltd company role and neither is PRO. They are common with RA's and other groups though. You can't elect a committe at a company AGM. There are directors from start to finish. You can also obtain the B10 form off the cro site to see who the directors of the company are if your unsure.

Possibly crossed wires here? It does sound like the RA only at play. Possibly organising a budget for things other than what is covered by the company but purely voluntary.


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## LeoD

lantus said:


> Are you sure this isn't just the RA? treasurer is not a typical ltd company role and neither is PRO. They are common with RA's and other groups though. You can't elect a committe at a company AGM. There are directors from start to finish. You can also obtain the B10 form off the cro site to see who the directors of the company are if your unsure.
> 
> Possibly crossed wires here? It does sound like the RA only at play. Possibly organising a budget for things other than what is covered by the company but purely voluntary.



Would a RA require an annual budget of €20,000? I ask that rhetorically btw. The MC are either deliberately or ignorantly fudging the two entities but it's most definitely the MC that are making demands for money based on these meetings. I am aware of the role of each entity - I am a member of a separate, very well run, MC in Dublin. The problem is that the Dublin MC follow procedure by the book so there is never a problem. These other clowns/cowboys I am dealing with now are a problem as I have to figure out what to do when procedure is not followed and the first issue on my to do list was the validity/legality of the 'AGM'.


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## lantus

LeoD said:


> Would a RA require an annual budget of €20,000? I ask that rhetorically btw. The MC are either deliberately or ignorantly fudging the two entities but it's most definitely the MC that are making demands for money based on these meetings. I am aware of the role of each entity - I am a member of a separate, very well run, MC in Dublin. The problem is that the Dublin MC follow procedure by the book so there is never a problem. These other clowns/cowboys I am dealing with now are a problem as I have to figure out what to do when procedure is not followed and the first issue on my to do list was the validity/legality of the 'AGM'.


 
calculating the budget for any development takes time and effort and requires obtianing quotes and talking to people, getting surveys done etc. It cannot be rustled out of thin air.

If this 'committee' is meant to represent director appointments then the ODCE will also take a dim view.

The names and addresses of the directors are on the CRO site, check if this is the same as the 'people' at the meeting and on the 'committee' and as per the minutes. If its the same then issue all to ODCE and outline the problem with the AGM which may apply like 21 days legal notice in writing provided to all members, wrong name on documentation, improper appointment of directors (no written notice, no proper procedure follwed at meeting etc.) no vote for budget. no bedget or documentation pre meeting.

I would be tempted to call/contact the OMC/RA to see what the score is. i.e. talk to them and see what they tell you.


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## Luternau

@ LeoD
What type of development is this? 20k seems on the low side for a large multi unit development with commom areas to maintain, insurance etc. 
It would seem procedures are not being followed re AGM notices etc. Are you aware that you could petition for an EGM and remove the builder from the OMC? 
Then you the residents, can determine everything. That would seem the best way to move forward with this.


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## lantus

Luternau said:


> @ LeoD
> What type of development is this? 20k seems on the low side for a large multi unit development with commom areas to maintain, insurance etc.
> It would seem procedures are not being followed re AGM notices etc. Are you aware that you could petition for an EGM and remove the builder from the OMC?
> Then you the residents, can determine everything. That would seem the best way to move forward with this.


 
An EGM can be used to do that but carefully consider that you or other residents will be taking on director positions. You should obtain the members register which is NOT subject to data protection. (again ODCE will move to insist this is provided if current directors dont want to.)

you need to write or contact all the members at least 21 days prior to proposed meeting plus existing directors and auditors and if you are changing the directors write to formally announce such no more than 21 and no less than 3 days before meeting nominated by a member who is fully paid up in writing to the registered company address.

I would read the full ODCE guide to AGM's and EGM's and changing directors and your articles of association. If that seems reasonable you will also need to put together a new budget which will also need to be issued with the meeting notification and approved at said meeting by 60% of members present and eligable to vote.

It might be easier to just take over than trying to teach or coerce the current chancers on how to run a company properly and face years of pain and mental torture through their stupid and crazy decisions.


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