# Success : Reported a car for dangerous driving and he was convicted



## Drakon (13 Nov 2018)

In early September I was driving on a National Primary Route (one lane in each direction, with hard shoulder on either side, no dividing barrier).

There was a line of about eight vehicles behind one slow moving vehicle  A small red car overtook the slow moving vehicle. Then as he/she was doing this, another car overtook the overtaking car, by going onto the hard shoulder on the opposite side (three cars travelling side by side). It also almost hit the grass bank on the opposite side of the road. Then raced off into the distance. 
After my shock, I just thought “someone should report that fool”.
Later on, about 10 minutes later, the same moronic motorist was held up at a right turn junction, at which point I made a mental note of the registration, and when I reached the next town I called into to Garda Station to report what I’d seen, make a statement, etc. 

Last week the Gardai phoned me to say that the case will be going to court, and I confirmed that I still intend to attend. 

I’ve never been in a courthouse and have no idea what the setup will be. I want to let the court know exactly what I saw, and let them decide from there. 
What can I expect?
Thanks.


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## Leo (13 Nov 2018)

Can't help wit personal experience, but Citizen's Information have published some guides.


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## dereko1969 (13 Nov 2018)

I was a witness in a totally dis-similar case a few years ago (work-related). I was surprised that, as a witness, I was able to be in the body of the court before being called.
You go up, swear or affirm, and then answer the questions asked, you're supposed to be answering to the judge rather than the lawyer asking you the questions which is a little odd but the chair is angled that way (I think). Be prepared for the defence to try and question your motives, your eyesight and your memory!
Not sure if the Garda will seek you out beforehand to go through your story with the prosecuting barrister, but if you see the Garda involved make yourself known to him/her when you arrive.
Well done, you're doing the right thing.


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## David1234 (13 Nov 2018)

This seems like a strange case to be going to court.

If I was on the defence I would point out that there is no way of knowing without doubt that it was the same car that you saw 10 minutes later (when you first noted the reg) and not a similar one.


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## iamaspinner (13 Nov 2018)

I'm no judge or lawyer but I've been to court before. Some cases are open to the public, others are not.

As a witness you're there to assist the court, i.e. the judge, which is why you should address AND face the judge when answering questions: thank you, judge; yes, judge; that's correct, judge; etc. Do NOT say your honour!

Remember you're not being judged, you're not the defendant. The defense may try to discredit you or your memory, and so on. So respond truthfully to what you're being asked and you'll be fine. Don't be afraid to say I don't know or I don't recall... And don't say anything if the defense don't ask a question or they keep quiet after you've said something. They're often waiting for the witness to keep talking and give them ammunition!

Well done on reporting the incident and following through to court. Let us know how you get on.


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## dereko1969 (13 Nov 2018)

David1234 said:


> This seems like a strange case to be going to court.
> 
> If I was on the defence I would point out that there is no way of knowing without doubt that it was the same car that you saw 10 minutes later (when you first noted the reg) and not a similar one.


Well it will be up to the defence to cast doubt, the only thing is you seem to be presuming that the OP is the only witness, I would guess there are a few more to back up their story. Given Garda reluctance to investigate matters of this type it seems to me that they must have a very solid case.


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## Drakon (13 Nov 2018)

David1234 said:


> This seems like a strange case to be going to court.
> 
> If I was on the defence I would point out that there is no way of knowing without doubt that it was the same car that you saw 10 minutes later (when you first noted the reg) and not a similar one.



When I went into the station to make my statement the Garda said exactly the same. 
I said that when I saw the incident, I noticed that the badge (ie make) was the same as my own, but the model I did not recognise and that the colour was very unusual, a green/grey/blue-ish metallic finish. 
Ten minutes later, I saw this very distinctive car again, and noted the reg. 
“That’ll do”, she said, and took my statement.

I know it’s only a rough approximation, but I’d a look on a used car sales website for that make/model/year.
There were 0 results.


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## dereko1969 (13 Nov 2018)

Excellent! Make sure the prosecuting barrister and/or Garda know that you carried out that research so they can ask you on the stand.


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## Drakon (13 Nov 2018)

David1234 said:


> ...no way of knowing without doubt



I dunno about the real world, but on TV shows they always refer to “reasonable doubt”.


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## Palerider (13 Nov 2018)

I've been driving over 35 years, accident and points free, and like others I have had a few near misses over the years and my fair share of observing lunatic drivers, recently whilst driving locally on a road I know well I met a idiot on a corner with their car cutting the corner and well over a continuous white line on my side, they took no evasive action, I had to, it frightened me.

I went home, got online and bought a quality dashcam as recommended by Which UK, I installed it and now have a reliable 3rd party observer to nab the next lunatic, going to Court cannot be easy for you, good luck...and get a dashcam, the Garda will find it easier to identify and Persue.


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## Drakon (13 Nov 2018)

Palerider said:


> ...car cutting the corner and well over a continuous white line on my side...



I don’t drive that much but I experience this maybe once a month. If I made a statement, with or without dashcam, I’d have little time to enjoy life.

I’ve never seen a car overtaking an already overtaking car before. This was a new experience and in my opinion deserved a statement.


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## Drakon (13 Nov 2018)

A colleague of mine got 1 penalty point for driving on the hard shoulder (of her side of the road).
Dunno if there’re any points for driving on the hard shoulder on the other side of the road.


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## Leo (13 Nov 2018)

Drakon said:


> Dunno if there’re any points for driving on the hard shoulder on the other side of the road.



The hint is in the thread title, this is covered under dangerous driving.


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## DeeKie (14 Nov 2018)

Interested to know how this case ends OP


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## iamaspinner (14 Nov 2018)

In today's Indo. Coincidence?



Palerider, which dashcam did you buy?


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## Palerider (14 Nov 2018)

I bought a nextbase dash cam with a quality 32gb sd card capable of recording to hd standard, I think it was a next base 312 but not sure, It was around €95 on eBay, I see on today’s Indo that Axa will give you 10% off if you use a dash cam with 10% off nextbase dash cams at Halfords, Micks Garage etc


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## demoivre (14 Nov 2018)

Drakon said:


> When I went into the station to make my statement the Garda said exactly the same.
> I said that when I saw the incident, I noticed that the badge (ie make) was the same as my own, but the model I did not recognise and that the colour was very unusual, a green/grey/blue-ish metallic finish.
> Ten minutes later, I saw this very distinctive car again, and noted the reg.
> “That’ll do”, she said, and took my statement.



How does this prove the car was involved in a dodgy overtaking manoeuvre ?


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## Leo (14 Nov 2018)

demoivre said:


> How does this prove the car was involved in a dodgy overtaking manoeuvre ?



That's for the courts to decide. If it has gone that far it's obvious the DPP believes there is sufficient evidence.


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## Bronte (14 Nov 2018)

Well done Drakon for doing your civic duty and reporting the lunatic and for being prepared to go to court.

Glad too to see the boys in blue have serious issues with this rogue driver, enough to stop him and enough to bring him to court. Bet you anything Drakon is not the only witness.


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## Drakon (14 Nov 2018)

demoivre said:


> How does this prove the car was involved in a dodgy overtaking manoeuvre ?


Because it was a very unusual car, with very unusual colouring, there is no doubt in my mind whatsoever that it was the same car.

It’s a “he said/she said” thing, as in many court cases.


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## DirectDevil (22 Nov 2018)

Firstly, fair play to OP for following this up.

I will not be surprised if the case is struck out on the basis that there is reasonable doubt about the identity of the offending vehicle.

More importantly, will there be the required basic evidence of driving by the defendant ?

There is a break in the continuity of the evidence of the witness's [OP] observation of the offending vehicle.
That does open the way for arguing reasonable doubt.

I admire the thoroughness of OP's research on the used car website. I don't think that evidence - if allowed in - will withstand the inevitable argument that those researches cannot rule out positively the presence of a similar vehicle in the same area at the same time.

All that said I hope that I am 100% wrong and that the defendant is nailed - too much of this nonsense on the roads today.

Even if the defendant is acquitted OP may well have done a good public service anyhow on the basis that the defendant might think twice before doing that again especially if he realises that there are responsible people like OP who will not tolerate it.


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## DirectDevil (19 Dec 2018)

Any news ?


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## Drakon (10 Jul 2019)

Ten months later...
The case was yesterday. 
The State sought a Dangerous Driving conviction (in the hope of securing a Careless Driving conviction).
I was up first, gave my statement to the judge. The accused’s solicitor questioned me a lot, honing in on the exact location where it had happened, saying that he’s familiar with that stretch of road and is not how I describe it. However, I informed him that I’d driven that stretch that morning, clocked the distances between landmaks/junctions and the site of the incident and that it was exactly as I had described. 
I was then followed by the Garda that I’d made the statement to.
Next up was the accused, then his girlfriend. Both said that they were in the car, that the incident did not happen, that I’d mistaken his car for someone else. 

Given that it was 1 versus 2 I was expecting the accused to get off. 

The accused’s solicitor’s final statement was that I was mistaken in the location and in what car was involved. 
The State’s final statement was that the location was ultimately irrelevant, you either believe Mr Drakon or Mr Boy Racer.

The judge replied “I believe Mr Drakon”
Yey!

He said he was going to use his discretion and decided not to convict for Dangerous Driving. 
He decided to convict for Careless Driving, €250 fine five penalty points. 

I am relieved with the outcome. I would be slow to report someone again unless it was more serious and that I had another witness with me.


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## Jazz01 (10 Jul 2019)

Drakon - well done for seeing this through to the end. It was a lot of commitment and no doubt some anxiety with this whole process. I am surprised that it went this far, especially, as you say it was a "their word against yours..". A great outcome all the same.


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## elcato (10 Jul 2019)

I'm curious as to whether the accused was throwing any intimidating looks towards you. I have to admit I would probably be terrified. How much detail does the guy have on you regarding address/car reg or work etc ?


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## seamless (10 Jul 2019)

Well done on your tenacity.


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## newtothis (10 Jul 2019)

Well done! I'd call that a result, and well worth doing.


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## Drakon (11 Jul 2019)

elcato said:


> I'm curious as to whether the accused was throwing any intimidating looks towards you. I have to admit I would probably be terrified. How much detail does the guy have on you regarding address/car reg or work etc ?


We mutually avoided eye contact. However, when The State had him under pressure and he was obviously lying to my ears, I held a constant stare, though it was at the side of his face. 

The names, DOBs and addresses of him, his partner, and mine, were all read out. 
I can’t recall is exact address or her name. Whether he remembers my address....

When I entered the witness box and swore it, it must have been obvious I’d never done this before. I forgot the bible, fumbled with it when I did pick it up, and held it like a right eejit.
However, when he entered the box he held it just like they do on Irish or English TV. 
He has one previous conviction in Ireland, for assault. He’s English, May or may not have priors elsewhere.


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## dereko1969 (11 Jul 2019)

Well done, need more people like you in this country.
Disappointed in the Judge going with Careless, nothing careless about it, it was pure Dangerous the way you've described it. There was a similar case in the North recently, driver in hard shoulder overtaking but not sure they've caught the person yet - video footage was shown - but I would doubt the result would be the same up there.


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## Seagull (16 Jul 2019)

Probably more chance of it being appealed and overturned if he goes for dangerous driving based on purely one eye witness with no supporting evidence.


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## DirectDevil (17 Jul 2019)

Drakon, well played indeed and congratulations on seeing this through.

I have just fitted a dashcam and it is incredible to see what it picks up. 
A dashcam is your constant objective witness. 
Mind you it also keeps manners on me as it will record any of my potential driving naughties.

You may well have contributed to saving someone's life or limb if the offending driver has the sense to learn his lesson and not do this again.
Even if he appeals successfully to the Circuit Court he will still remember the trouble and expense that his driving has cost him.


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## Palerider (17 Jul 2019)

Well done Mr Drakon and +1 on the dashcam, very necessary in my opinion, in the UK the Police will act on dashcam footage,  not sure the Garda would be interested but hopefully at some point, a crazy move on his part as a driver to be fair that deserved to follow him, rest assured you have saved somebody by your actions.


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## MangoJoe (17 Jul 2019)

Drakon thanks for being a good citizen and having the backbone to keep our roads that bit safer, much respect.

- Just a thought. The Gardai should take the witnesses name, address and DOB in these cases and then once satisfied with the veracity of the individuals details allow them to testify without the amount of exposure mentioned above.... Too much scope for the accused to execute petty or even more serious revenge in my opinion.


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## aristotle (17 Jul 2019)

Palerider said:


> not sure the Garda would be interested



I had one experience a couple of years ago where they were. I witnessed a car dangerously undertaking cars by using the hard shoulder so I rang the local Garda station who promptly had a Motorbike Garda waiting down the road for them.

He pulled them in and I just drove on and later that evening I got a call to say that driver also had no insurance. But the Garda came out to the hotel I was staying at the next morning with his laptop to view and take a copy of my dashcam footage and to take a statement.

I didn’t hear from him again but at least it was one less uninsured driver off the road and hopefully he will learn not to drive like that again. The undertaking of a suv with kids in the back of it, a week after there was 3 road fatalities around where I lived meant I wasn’t going to turn a blind eye to it.


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## Palerider (17 Jul 2019)

Good for you, we have dashcams in all the cars in our house, especially important for the younger drivers and minding their insurance costs,  it also keeps tabs on your own driving, maybe sub consiously, I will not hesitate to bring footage to the Garda if the situation arises.


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## evil_g (17 Jul 2019)

Drakon said:


> The names, DOBs and addresses of him, his partner, and mine, were all read out.



Even your house number? That would certainly make me think twice about reporting scumbaggery.


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## Baby boomer (20 Jul 2019)

Not so sure about the absolute wisdom of installing a dashcam.  To be sure, it can be useful in some circumstances.  But.... There's a basic right in law to silence and non-incrimination.   Might it be used against yourself?  Does a Garda have the power to seize it and use the footage against your will?  If so, under what circumstances?  
What rights does the insurance company that gives you a 10% discount have to inspect footage?  Is your policy void if you switch it off?  

I'd need to know the answers to these questions before I'd put one on my car.


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## Palerider (20 Jul 2019)

I have a dashcam, I do not seek any discount from my insurer as it would mean I could be asked to supply it.

The camera reassures me, I am claims free for several decades, I ordered mine following a near miss on a corner when I had to swerve to avoid a lady on her phone over the white line on my side, it removes the issue of who is at fault and in that case had we collided is a silent independent witness to my innocence.

Not sure if the Garda can seize it but they can request it, it is personal property after all.

It will also come on and record for a short period if the car gets a minor shunt whilst parked, handy that.


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## Brendan Burgess (11 Dec 2019)

Drakon

That is a great story. I had missed it first time around.  

I have reported a few but got nowhere. 

On one occasion, I was driving up towards Galway from the Burren and the car in front of me was driving erratically, slowing down suddenly from time to time.  I thought it safer to overtake him and when I did he flashed at me. Then I realised the problem. The driver of the car in front of me was obviously very drunk.   He was wandering all over the road.  I could do nothing, as it was before mobile phones. 

As we approached one of the roundabouts, he drove straight onto it and almost into a Garda car.  I was delighted. But the drunk took one turn and the Garda car another.  So I went out of my way after the Garda car and started flashing my light and blowing my horn at him.  So they put on their siren and turned around and went after him.  I turned around as well and saw him pulled in a few minutes later. 

Brendan


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## Drakon (11 Dec 2019)

For me it was a stressful experience and ten months of occasional anxiety. I still think to myself, “thank f that it all went well and there was a conviction”.

However, I wouldn’t put myself through it all again in a hurry. That was the worst case of driving I’d ever witnessed and I wanted the driver punished.

And the way he swore on the bible, ie, he’d obviously been in the dock a number of times before, cleared any doubt about the need to punish him.

I would have to witness something worse to make a statement again, and with more evidence than just my statement and perfect recollection of events.

BTW, thanks for changing the title, BB.


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## Brendan Burgess (19 Dec 2019)

I was cycling into town along Grand Canal Street today and there was a taxi in front of me, not sure where he was going. 

He did a very sudden u-turn to the far side of the road with screeching breaks, and an oncoming cyclist on the far side had to take evasive action.

So I turned around and went after the cyclist and asked if he wanted to report it.   He just shrugged his shoulders and said something about a better place.  He was foreign, so I didn't fully understand it.  But I gathered that he didn't. 

A pity.

Brendan


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## Gorteen (21 Dec 2019)

I've done similar one morning. I was sure the driver was either drunk or suicidal, e.g. Only overtaking when approaching a corner, overtaking a line of cars when there were hills which prevent seeing any cars coming towards his direction of travel. I phoned Garda station and gave registration and direction. Ten minutes later, Gardai had set up roadblock. Driver was stopped, charged with dangerous driving ( Garda saw driver overtaking over double white line at speed). I was asked to give statement later that week which I did but court appearance was not necessary as driver pleaded guilty.


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## Brendan Burgess (21 Dec 2019)

Gorteen said:


> Ten minutes later, Gardai had set up roadblock.



That is very impressive.


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## Gorteen (21 Dec 2019)

Brendan Burgess said:


> That is very impressive.


When I called Garda station in the town we were driving towards, the person answering the call said they had a car out on patrol and would ask them to intervene. I suspected this was unlikely but was proved wrong. Nice to see policing being as responsive as they were that morning.


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## qwerty5 (22 Dec 2019)

I've a dashcam. My wife was in an incident caused by another driver.
The insurance were going to do an "investigation" and it would take 3 months and told us to claim off our insurance in the meantime.
A visit to a solicitor the next day with our images and description meant the three months was reduced to 3 days and I didn't have to use our insurance for the repair at all.


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## johnwilliams (27 Dec 2019)

remember years ago seeing a situation, car a(a) followed by car (b) followed by car(c) 
car (c) attempted to over take both on long straight road, at same time car(b)started to  overtake car(a) didnt check mirrors?, car (c) forced to drive on  opposite hard shoulder to avoid colliding with car (b) interesting seeing 3 of them side by side


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