# Can I be forced to leave work over sick child?



## stano (22 Jan 2007)

I would like some advice please.
I work_employer's name deleted - Brendan_ on a 20 hour contract. It has been brought to my attention lately that I have missed time over my kids being sick and being let down by child minder (when she or her children are sick, not something that happens often).

My children are young so when they are sick I can't do anything but stay at home. I never had a issue with sick leave before but when you have children everthing changes.
Can I be eased out of the company? I feel the cool wind of total displeasure from my manager these days. She is also 25 or some such age and works 24/7, which I respect her for and for getting on so fast, But I'm sort of stuck, I have no family living in the city, no one I can just drop a sick child on for 4 hours. And heres the rub we need my wage.

I'm stressed trying to organise the rotas at the best of time, feel like giving up and staying at home, maybe minding another child or something.
Don't like this feeling though, I work hard, like the job, but feel like I'm somehow doing something wrong, Bit down about the whole thing really.


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## ajapale (22 Jan 2007)

have you spoken to your trade union?


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## stano (22 Jan 2007)

No I haven't, should I.  Is this a union issue?  I will and see what their stand is on it all.

Thanks


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## Bamhan (22 Jan 2007)

How often do you have to take time off?


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## ClubMan (22 Jan 2007)

stano said:


> It has been brought to my attention lately that I have missed time over my kids being sick and being let down by child minder


The second example is not reflected in the title of your query. Whatever about possibly being entitled to force majeure leave when children are sick I don't think that your employer has any responsibility to you when your childminder lets you down.


> Can I be eased out of the company?


The DETE Employment Rights section can usually apprise you of your statutory rights in these situations.


> She is also 25 or some such age and works 24/7


I don't see the relevance of this to your situation to be honest.


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## stano (23 Jan 2007)

Fare enough, I guess I mentioned her age as I have found there is a total lack of understanding.  Yes she is following the company line I do understand that, and it's not her job to offer total understanding. However it is difficult at times when the two worlds meet.

In 3 months I have had to change 2 shifts at short notice due to child care issues, and called in yesterday as my baby was sick, my husband is minding him today as he's home from work.
I have also offered to work extra to make up the time.


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## ClubMan (23 Jan 2007)

Might be worth checking if the force majeure rules apply here but I suspect that they may only be relevant to episodes of critical/chronic illness and maybe not more normal/run of the mill infant ailments. Sounds to me like you might need to find a more reliable childminder and perhaps avoid taking time of work unless it is absolutely necessary. Did you follow up the links that I posted above?


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## zag (23 Jan 2007)

Clubman - I think you will find it is absolutely necessary to look after a sick child.  As the poster explained they have no support network available locally and their child minder is not always reliable.  Given this situation the poster doesn't have a whole lot of choice other than for one of the parents to stay at home to mind the child.

stano - you have to look at this from both perspectives.  Everyone can see that your hands are tied when you have a sick child - you have to either take care of them or else organise someone else to do that.  This can be stressfull & time consuming and is not easy.  However, looked at from your employers point of view - all they see is an unmanned till or someone else having to cover at overtime rates.  This is a problem to them.

Each time this happens your boss will only see this side of the situation (there are other people who can do your work, so they don't need to sympathise with you) and over time this will just serve to cause further problems.  The only thing you can do is to talk to your boss, explain that the problem is occasional, indicate you are trying to make other arrangements, etc . . .

z


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## ClubMan (23 Jan 2007)

zag said:


> Clubman - I think you will find it is absolutely necessary to look after a sick child.


But do you know for a fact that force majeure rules apply in general or only to instances of critical/chronic illness? I don't hence my circumspection.


> As the poster explained they have no support network available locally and their child minder is not always reliable.  Given this situation the poster doesn't have a whole lot of choice other than for one of the parents to stay at home to mind the child.


But, to put it bluntly, that is not the employer's problem unless the force majeure rules meant that it is.


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## zag (23 Jan 2007)

I'm not talking about force majeure leave.  I'm talking about the original posters situation when they wake up in the morning or bring the kids home from school or whenever and find that one of them is sick, the child minder is unavailable *and* they are scheduled to work.  In this instance they (like the vast majority of people) will opt to stay at home and mind the child rather than go to work.  I understand that this is the situation the poster was asking about.  In this situation they cannot avoid taking time off work.

I agree that it is not the employers problem, but it is the posters problem.

z


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## ClubMan (23 Jan 2007)

zag said:


> I agree that it is not the employers problem, but it is the posters problem.


And the employer could well be within their rights to issue official warnings and ultimately terminate the employment if the employee habitually misses work in such circumstances I presume?


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## money man (23 Jan 2007)

It seems to me her boss is being a bit unreasonable. She sounds like a(poster) fairly dependable hard working person (by her own account) and changing shifts twice and missing one day in 3 months seems totally acceptable in the situation where a child is sick or a childminder is unavailable. What the hell is the world coming to. They should meet the employee half way and she should sit down with her boss and explain the reasons why she has been unable to work the hours she has been given recently. She has offered to work in the time. Its a long road with no turns and her boss should remember that .


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## Art (23 Jan 2007)

In the case of Murphy vs Celtic Linen Ltd heard at the Employment Appeals Tribunal, it was held that it is for the parent to decide whether his/her immediate presence is necessary at his/her home. In the case of the OP, she felt that her presence was clearly indispensable and therefore should be granted force majeure leave.

Whether the illness is chronic is irrelevant according to the High Court which in 2001 found in the case of Carey vs Penn Racquet Sports that "the plaintiff could not be assumed to have medical knowledge which she did not possess".


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## money man (23 Jan 2007)

Ye.!! A bit more useful than my advice!!


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## shipibo (25 Jan 2007)

Some questions,

Have you been given verbal, written warnings from employer.

Have you doctors notes for child, is the frequency of time off intolerable to the business.

What impact is there on business if you fail to turn up ?? , shop closed etc...

Has the job the ability to cover your absence temporarily ??


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## ClubMan (25 Jan 2007)

If force majeure leave is still relevant then bear in mind that there are limits on this - see [broken link removed]:


> The maximum amount of leave is 3 days in any 12-month period or 5 days in a 36-month period.


Maybe the original poster can clarify precisely how much unscheduled time off was taken on acccount of things like lack of a childminder or the child being sick, how this time off was accounted for (e.g. taken out of annual leave etc.) and (as mentioned above) what repercussions, if any, there have been to date (e.g. verbal or written warnings etc.).


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## aircobra19 (25 Jan 2007)

The reality is problems with your children and childcare are nothing to do with  your employer. So if you break any of the terms of your contract by exceeding your leave, or not doing your work as required then they are entitled to take action against you. its only fair. Put yourself in their boots. Imagine it was your small company and someone taking time off was costing you money, that wouldn't be fair either. However someone with some life experience, maturity, and empathy might give you some leeway, especially if they value you, perhaps because you are hard worker etc, or that you have a great track record etc. They could give you special leave, unpaid leave, etc, or allow you work back the time etc. At the end of the day if someone is willing to help you there are things they can. But they don't have to do this. 

But the reality is that some people simply don't think like this (we all know the type) and if thats who you work with you have to know your audience and deal with that situation as it is, and not as you wish it was. In which case you are going to sit down and work out a solution that works for you and your employee. If its not workable then you have to make changes. Personally I've made the decision to leave a job where I simply wasn't prepared or more accurately able to meet the employers demands, while juggling the demands of a small young family. It was financially very hard for a year about a year until I found a position that better suited us. 

That not to say you should do something that drastic, but perhaps it might get you to think of the bigger picture. The reality is that you are not a robot and especially with a family you can't always do everything that you used to be able to do. Be the 24/7 person for example. Perhaps you need a nanny, perhaps you need sometime time off, perhaps you need bigger changes. 

One thing to remember is that both you and the employer are bound by rules, so BOTH of you have to do everything by the book.


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## dubinamerica (25 Jan 2007)

The gut of the question here is whether an employer can ease an employee out of a company due to an employee taking unscheduled time away from work to look after a sick child.  Does anyone know if that is indeed possible? If so, under what type of circumstances. How can employee best protect themselves against this i.e. get sick notes for each and every days absence? Take force majeure leave or vacation days on these days? stano - I would certainly not do anything drastic here. Sit tight and keep working away as you are. if any way possible try to arrange some back up child care or see if it may be possible to arrange childcare in a creche, as this means that you are not dependent on one person who probably doesn't really understand the stress that is being caused if they let you down on a day.  Do you know any of the other employees in the company well enough to arrange them to switch shifts at short notice if the need arises?  I think that sick days for children is one issue but being let down by a childminder is a whole different ball game and may be giving more of a negative impression to your manager. Possibly if you could improve on that area it may reduce some of the stress.


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## pat127 (26 Jan 2007)

dubinamerica said:


> The gut of the question here is whether an employer can ease an employee out of a company due to an employee taking unscheduled time away from work to look after a sick child. Does anyone know if that is indeed possible?


 
It has to be possible. The fact that it is a sick child is actually irrelevant as distinct to any other reason why someone takes unscheduled time off. I don't think there are any special provisions made for children as such, other than as covered by Force Majeure which applies to 'a close family member'.  

At the end of the day, the employer can let someone go and to find out if it was done legitimately the employee will have to take the case to the regulatory authorities.


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## Welfarite (26 Jan 2007)

another factor here is that the employment is only 20 hours per week ... type of work not stated which would alos help to understand employer's position regarding unscheduled time off.  Does it cost employer to replace missing employee and how much does it affect the business? The reason for taking time off unscheduled at short notice is irrelevant.


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