# Best Irish sporting achiever EVER



## Duke of Marmalade (12 Aug 2008)

Don't get me wrong, what Harrington achieved was fantastic, but before I tell you the BISAE, I want to point out a few flaws in Padraic's claim to that title. 

In the first place he is only No. 3 in the world in golf. 

Secondly, he has been lucky that the World No. 1 was unable to participate in the last two majors. 

Finally, there are at least a half dozen players who have surpassed his achievement of 3 majors, some by a long way.

The BISAE is undoubtedly Aidan O'Brien. This guy is indisputably the best trainer of racehorses on planet Earth. He is currently on course to break the all time record of Group 1 wins in a year.

We reached a World Cup QF and the nation came to a standstill, yet we have a colossus in his field and we hardly notice, shame.


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## z103 (12 Aug 2008)

Michelle De Bruin won three Olympic gold medals.


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## Duke of Marmalade (12 Aug 2008)

leghorn said:


> Michelle De Bruin won three Olympic gold medals.


I don't count women.


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## csirl (12 Aug 2008)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Thorpe

What about Jim Thorpe - often called "the greatest athlete of all time". Fathers family were Irish.


Or Patrick O'Callaghan who won Olympic gold medals in 1928 & 1932.


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## csirl (12 Aug 2008)

Most people dont count racing as a proper sport.


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## Ash 22 (12 Aug 2008)

Nothing can take from Padraig Harringtons victories. Tiger Woods was missing but who's to say that Tiger would have beaten Harrington anyway? The people who surpassed his achievement in golf are not Irish.

Was there not a shadow cast over Michelle De Bruins victories?

Aidan O'Brien is indeed top notch.

We also had Ronnie Delaney back awhile.  For a small country we've produced some of the finest.


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## FredBloggs (12 Aug 2008)

Its very hard to compare sportsmen in different fields.  However I think we can all agree that he's the best golfer we ever had - and by some distance.   For years the triumph of Ireland in the Canada Cup (no I can' remember it) was highlighted as our best ever golfing result.  Then Harrington and McGinley equalled that by winning the world cup against a second rate field.  However both of those have been surpassed and well surpassed by Harrington's major achievements.


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## csirl (12 Aug 2008)

Stephen Roche's World Championship, Tour de France and Giro d'Italia wins in 1 season may be the greatest single season by an Irish sports star.


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## Ash 22 (12 Aug 2008)

John Treacy world cross country champion 2 years back to back. Olympic medallist.  Some achievement also.


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## Duke of Marmalade (12 Aug 2008)

csirl said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Thorpe
> 
> What about Jim Thorpe - often called "the greatest athlete of all time". Fathers family were Irish.


 
His grandfather was Irish, jayz sake.  At that rate Tiger Woods is probably the BISAE.


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## DavyJones (12 Aug 2008)

I don't know much about golf, but saying he is"only 3rd in the world" is unfair. How many people play golf at that level? and you can only beat the players that are there. He has won 3 majors in 13 months so I assume there is alot to come yet.


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## Ash 22 (12 Aug 2008)

Harchibald said:


> I don't count women.


 
Is that because there are no women to count!


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## Duke of Marmalade (12 Aug 2008)

csirl said:


> Most people dont count racing as a proper sport.


 True it is not recognised by the IOC but neither is golf.


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## Ash 22 (12 Aug 2008)

csirl said:


> Most people dont count racing as a proper sport.


 
I think in racing its the poor horse that deserves the credit!!


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## DavyJones (12 Aug 2008)

Ash 22 said:


> I think in racing its the poor horse that deserves the credit!!



I spent my youth working with race horses. Horses love to run and belive it or not, be infront of other horses. If  I was instructed to give a horse a light run I would struggle to hold him/her when other horses ran past us on the training track. and a lot of succesful race horses do take the credit, Red Rum,  Best Mate, Istabraq, Dawn Run, Desert Orchid etc


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## Ash 22 (12 Aug 2008)

I often think when the horse comes to the final few furlongs and you see the jockeys giving them a few whacks, surely the poor horse does'nt enjoy that. Why can't use of whips be banned, I presume the horse will still move.


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## dodo (12 Aug 2008)

First of all you don't have to be the best in the world at your chosen sport to be the greatest sports person in your Country, secondly if Harrington had shot to last rounds of  say level par and still won then I would agree with some of your points, but Harrington shot to 66's as Justin Leonard said it is Tiger like Golf that Harrington played on final 2 days, It is true that Tiger wins 1 in 3 Majors since he won his first Major in 1997 and that is still the case he has played 42 Majors since 1997 and has won 42, so taking that into account of his current trend he may not have won the two majors he was missing.You can't say just because some player was not there that the win is any less undervalued, If's  buts pot's and pan's come to mind. 
As for Aidan O Brien he is great at training but unless he is the jockey I would not count him,Is is someone else who actually wins the races and not him, like saying the mechanic who looks after the Maclaren  car is the greatest in motor sports in 2007. Is Ali's trainer the greatest sports man ever after all he trained Ali. I think this talk of Tiger not playing when Harrington won is just plain old Irish Begrudgery rearing it's ugly head. I thought we as a nation had moved on from that.
Well done Podge don't mind the begrudger's .


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## DavyJones (12 Aug 2008)

Most good jockeys don't beat their mounts with whips. Next time you watch a race watch out for the wide movement of the jockeys whip holding arm, they do this to warn the horse of the whip and good jockeys won't hit  down hard. Although some will say that the threat of pain is just as bad. For the few years that I was involved I only ever saw one horse with welts from whipping after a race and the turf club fined the jockey for excessive use of the whip.


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## DavyJones (12 Aug 2008)

dodo said:


> As for Aidan O Brien he is great at training but unless he is the jockey I would not count him,Is is someone else who actually wins the races and not him, like saying the mechanic who looks after the Maclaren  car is the greatest in motor sports in 2007. I.



His record speaks for itself. He is a great Irish sporting achiever He has a horse to work with and has to do his best with that individual animal. Nothing like building a mechanial device.

 Would you say Sir Aelx was not a great sporting achiever  cos he never kicked a ball in any Man UTD victory?


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## Ash 22 (12 Aug 2008)

DavyJones I'm glad to hear that.


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## Ash 22 (12 Aug 2008)

DavyJones said:


> Most good jockeys don't beat their mounts with whips. Next time you watch a race watch out for the wide movement of the jockeys whip holding arm, they do this to warn the horse of the whip and good jockeys won't hit down hard. Although some will say that the threat of pain is just as bad. For the few years that I was involved I only ever saw one horse with welts from whipping after a race and the turf club fined the jockey for excessive use of the whip.


 
Very glad to hear that.


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## micmclo (12 Aug 2008)

leghorn said:


> Michelle De Bruin won three Olympic gold medals.



Doesn't belong in this thread and in any sporting achievers thread


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## DavyJones (12 Aug 2008)

I should say the jockey was also banned. its a big industry no-no. most race horses are looked after better than house pets. They are valuable and the way  trainers/owners/jockeys etc make their money.


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## DavyJones (12 Aug 2008)

micmclo said:


> Doesn't belong in this thread and in any sporting achievers thread



Why? she did win after all. She surely had been tested then after each race. Whatever happened afterwards is of no consequence.


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## Duke of Marmalade (12 Aug 2008)

dodo said:


> As for Aidan O Brien he is great at training but unless he is the jockey I would not count him,Is is someone else who actually wins the races and not him, like saying the mechanic who looks after the Maclaren car is the greatest in motor sports in 2007.


You're missing the plot there. AOB has had more stable jockeys than Italy has had prime ministers. I want to change tack a little. Ireland is a World Super Power in horse racing. Driven mainly by AOB but also Bolger and Weld. We are punching way, way above our weight, and yet a very modest outperformance by our soccer team, consisting of Irish emigrant descendants managed by an Englishman got far more recognition.

RTE Sports Personality of 2008 will undoubtedly be PH, fair enuff, but AOB won't even get a look in, double shame.


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## Sunny (12 Aug 2008)

DavyJones said:


> Why? she did win after all. She surely had been tested then after each race. Whatever happened afterwards is of no consequence.


 

Rubbish. She was a drugs cheat just like Marion Jones. She wasn't caught at the time either but what happened afterwards showed her up for what she was. Just like Michelle de Bruin. And I speak as someone who was Michelles biggest fan at the time while living abroad and having to defend her corner while people doubted her achievements. How innocent I was!!

Back to topic, why do we have this desire to name someone Irelands best ever sports person. I never hear other countries do it after someone achieves success. It is very difficult to compare competitors from different eras never mind across different sports. Why don't we just enjoy what Padraig has achieved? It was a staggering achievement. We don't get many of them so just enjoy it.


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## DavyJones (12 Aug 2008)

Sunny said:


> Rubbish. She was a drugs cheat just like Marion Jones. She wasn't caught at the time either but what happened afterwards showed her up for what she was. Just like Michelle de Bruin. And I speak as someone who was Michelles biggest fan at the time while living abroad and having to defend her corner while people doubted her achievements. How innocent I was!!
> 
> 
> .



Rubbish? Would she have been tested after every gold medal win? If so, then she won them fair and square.


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## Sunny (12 Aug 2008)

DavyJones said:


> Rubbish? Would she have been tested after every gold medal win? If so, then she won them fair and square.


#

Why? Marion Jones was tested after every gold medal in Sydney and passed but admitted later she was drugs. Did she win them fair and square?


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## DavyJones (12 Aug 2008)

Sunny said:


> #
> 
> Why? Marion Jones was tested after every gold medal in Sydney and passed but admitted later she was drugs. Did she win them fair and square?



How did she pass a dope test?


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## dodo (12 Aug 2008)

I think  given the resources  Alex Ferguson  has anything less would mean he is under achieving ,Given that Wenger has been his main rival for the last 10 years and Ferguson has had on average  spent 15 million Euro more each season than Wenger,Ferguson has spent over 145 million Euro more than Wenger, Now do you really think he deserve's  such huge credit .Unless all managers have the same resources than  I would not be to keen to give credit, now if they bought a  player for say 500K like Arsenal did with Anekla  and sold him for 23 Million and went on to buy more players with that profit than that is good business, but to be able go out and buy for eg Ferdinand for 30Million,Veron for 25Million+ that I would not   think is something to be all that proud of,


DavyJones said:


> His record speaks for itself. He is a great Irish sporting achiever He has a horse to work with and has to do his best with that individual animal. Nothing like building a mechanial device.
> 
> Would you say Sir Aelx was not a great sporting achiever  cos he never kicked a ball in any Man UTD victory?


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## ninsaga (13 Aug 2008)

Christy Ring of course!


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## bamboozle (13 Aug 2008)

DavyJones said:


> Rubbish? Would she have been tested after every gold medal win? If so, then she won them fair and square.


 

COme on, even the dog on the street know's she was guilty, the sunday times a few years ago did a great interview with a young canadian swimmer who was hot favourite for one of the races de bruin won, the canadian girl never swam again afterwards and she said in the interview all other swimmers were very wary of de bruin's sudden blossoming.

i think paul kimmage wrote that article.

she was a cheat and an embarrasement to this country.


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## diarmuidc (13 Aug 2008)

Sean Kelly, probably the greatest classic rider ever, Paris-Nice 7 consecutive races, Paris-Roubaix x 2, 4 x Green Jersey in Tour de France, 193 pro wins in total!

It'll be a very long time before we have a cyclist of his stature again.


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## Ceist Beag (13 Aug 2008)

Definitely Kelly was an infinitely better cyclist than Roche, just a shame he never won the Tour but his green jerseys record in that race alone is fantastic (2nd in table of most winners). Agree with FredBloggs about it being hard to compare across sports and also I don't like to reflect on Harringtons career just yet - he will win a lot more before he hangs up the clubs! However I think it's fair to say that his achievements to date are absolutely fantastic and he is a truly great ambassador for the country.


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## ubiquitous (13 Aug 2008)

Sunny said:


> Back to topic, why do we have this desire to name someone Irelands best ever sports person. I never hear other countries do it after someone achieves success. It is very difficult to compare competitors from different eras never mind across different sports. Why don't we just enjoy what Padraig has achieved? It was a staggering achievement. We don't get many of them so just enjoy it.



Well said. How can one meaningfully compare Sonia O'Sullivan to Barry McGuigan? Or Peter Canavan to Ronnie Delaney? Or Roy   Keane to John Treacy? It doesn't make sense.


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## MrMan (13 Aug 2008)

dodo said:


> I think  given the resources  Alex Ferguson  has anything less would mean he is under achieving ,Given that Wenger has been his main rival for the last 10 years and Ferguson has had on average  spent 15 million Euro more each season than Wenger,Ferguson has spent over 145 million Euro more than Wenger, Now do you really think he deserve's  such huge credit .Unless all managers have the same resources than  I would not be to keen to give credit, now if they bought a  player for say 500K like Arsenal did with Anekla  and sold him for 23 Million and went on to buy more players with that profit than that is good business, but to be able go out and buy for eg Ferdinand for 30Million,Veron for 25Million+ that I would not   think is something to be all that proud of,



Alex Ferguson has been achieving a lot longer than just his time at old Trafford, he won european and league medals in the face of Celtic/Rangers dominance. When he took over united these sums of money were never around and the club was a mess now they always in with a shout for the top prizes. 
Wenger did good business with Anelka, but how does that compare with developing Giggs, Scholes , Beckham, Nevilles, Butt etc United didn't do too badly from selling Beckham to madrid having cost them nothing.
Ferdinand has proven his worth, Veron didn't work out, Wenger has his expensive duds too - Jeffers, Reyes, Walcott (to be decided).


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## MrMan (13 Aug 2008)

Regarding great sporting achievers then Denis Irwin is the most decorated Irish soccer player and of course himself and Roy earned the fabled treble. Roy would go down as the greatest in my book but thats prob another debate in itself. 
I think the issue with recognising the achievements of AOB is that horse racing has too long been regarded as less than honest so it does colour the achievements, plus people tend to get behind a sport they have access to as kids hence the popularity of soccer, gaa etc


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## bamboozle (13 Aug 2008)

dont we have some handball champions who held the throne for years, no names spring to mind though!
WJ McBride for all his lions appearances,
Tony Foley for all his Munster appearances


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## rmelly (13 Aug 2008)

All of these pale into insignificance when you consider the achievements of Michael Phelps - 11 olympic gold medals (and a couple of bronze), 3 more finals to come in the 2008 games with World Records set in each of the 5 medal winning performances - and he's only 23.


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## csirl (13 Aug 2008)

> Denis Irwin is the most decorated Irish soccer player


 
Are you sure?

Ronnie Whelan & Mark Lawrenson of the dominant Liverpool teams of late 70s and 80s may dispute this. And they played in a era with 1 substitute on the bench and only those who played getting medals, not the whole squad of 30+ as during Irwins career.


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## Pique318 (13 Aug 2008)

Time for a controversial one...Eddie Irvine. Irelands greatest motor racing driver ever. Took no crap from anyone, nearly won the title (in Schumachers absence) but for a messed up pit-stop, but yet people think of him as the laughing stock 'mad Irishman' driver who was only after the best party.


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## diarmuidc (13 Aug 2008)

Pique318 said:


> Irelands greatest motor racing driver ever.


Probably true, but on the world stage, merely an average journeyman.


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## Howitzer (13 Aug 2008)

DavyJones said:


> How did she pass a dope test?


Ah come on. That's not how drug abuse works and if you're going comment on something you should at least know that much.


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## MrMan (13 Aug 2008)

csirl said:


> Are you sure?
> 
> Ronnie Whelan & Mark Lawrenson of the dominant Liverpool teams of late 70s and 80s may dispute this. And they played in a era with 1 substitute on the bench and only those who played getting medals, not the whole squad of 30+ as during Irwins career.



Ya I'm sure and I don't believe that Irwin spent much time on the bench hence the 'Mr Consistency' title. Irwin was a 1st teamer in his time at united and squads were bigger c.24 players but not everyone got medals unfortunately. Irwin also did it in a time where fitness levels were much higher quality improved also, media exposure ensured more travel and games and last but not least he is 100% Irish.


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## DavyJones (13 Aug 2008)

Howitzer said:


> Ah come on. That's not how drug abuse works and if you're going comment on something you should at least know that much.




That doesn't stop you commenting.


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## Duke of Marmalade (13 Aug 2008)

rmelly said:


> All of these pale into insignificance when you consider the achievements of Michael Phelps - 11 olympic gold medals (and a couple of bronze), 3 more finals to come in the 2008 games with World Records set in each of the 5 medal winning performances - and he's only 23.


These multiple swimming medals happen too often for my liking. It's not like Carl Lewis winning multiple golds at diverse events.


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## Howitzer (13 Aug 2008)

DavyJones said:


> That doesn't stop you commenting.


??


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## mathepac (13 Aug 2008)

Swimming - Michelle deBrun (despite spin-doctors, innuendo and begrudgers, she still holds her Olympic medals)
Cycling - Sean Kelly
Athletics - Sonia O'Sullivan / John Tracey / Ronnie Delaney
Field - Pat O'Callaghan
Boxing  - Katie Taylor (World Boxing Champion x 2, Irish Soccer International), Wayne McCullough (the bravest performance I've ever witnessed in the amateur game in the the last round of the Olympic final), Michael Carruth, Freddie Teith
Handball - Michael "Ducksie" Walsh
Motor-sport - Paddy Hopkirk / Billy Coleman / Joey Dunlop
Soccer - Roy Keane / George Best
Golf - Podge Harrington (by a country mile)
Rugby - Michael Cameron Gibson (majestic comes to mind, thanks Mike)
GAA - Mick O'Connell (Kerry for the youngsters among you)
GAA - Eoin Kelly (Tipperary)

That'll put the cat among the pigeons


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## Sunny (13 Aug 2008)

Whats the point of that list? The OP asked about the best Irish sporting achiever ever not the best in each sport. Pick one.


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## mathepac (13 Aug 2008)

Sunny said:


> Whats the point of that list? The OP asked about the best Irish sporting achiever ever not the best in each sport. Pick one.



The list is in support of the sentiment expressed in your earlier post - 



Sunny said:


> ... It is very difficult to compare competitors from different eras never mind across different sports...



Had you forgotten?


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## Sunny (13 Aug 2008)

mathepac said:


> The list is in support of the sentiment expressed in your earlier post -
> 
> 
> 
> Had you forgotten?


 
Oh right. Sorry. I fully agree with you. Thought you were cheating at the game whcih isn't fair even if it is an impossible and pointless exercise!!

I agree with a few. Certainly not Michelle Smyth/de Bruin but thats another days argument! Eoin kelly is a surprise for the hurling I have to say.


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## FredBloggs (13 Aug 2008)

I was an avid fan of Sean Kelly and Stephen roche when they cycled but you have to wonder about their achievements.  Drug cheats have been shown to be very prominent in the tour in recent years and only now is the tour getting itself in order.  When Kelly and Roche were at their prime Paul Kimmage complained about the cheats in the sport and was not exactly popular with his fellow cyclists including Stephen Roche who said he was talking nonsense.  But time has proven Kimmage right.
Of course Kelly and roche never tested positive so we have to give them the benefit of the doubt.
BTW do you remember one of the tours when Kellys team were doing really well in all the tour categories (I think he was riding for Panasonic) when the team suddenly all had to withdraw with a bad case of "food poisioning"?


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## Duke of Marmalade (13 Aug 2008)

I feel the question needs clarifying.

_"On the World sports stage which Irish person has achieved the greatest success?"_

AOB is the only person who can claim to be at the absolute summit of his sport on this planet, and by a country mile. All the others mentioned in this thread have done well relative to other Irish people but would not be World Best, except maybe the _GAA-GAAs_ but surely they don't count.


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## rmelly (13 Aug 2008)

Harchibald said:


> These multiple swimming medals happen too often for my liking. It's not like Carl Lewis winning multiple golds at diverse events.


 
This is the second olympics where he has won 5 or more gold medals - in swimming terms they would be considered diverse events, many of the competitors are different and even if they aren't diverse it shouldn't in any way take away from the achievement - Michael Johnson 'only' ran, Michael Schumacher 'only' drove an F1 car, Michael Jordan 'only' played basketball well - all are considered sporting greats in a seperate league to anything Ireland has ever produced.


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## z105 (13 Aug 2008)

My vote is for Padraig Harrington


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## Ash 22 (13 Aug 2008)

Harchibald said:


> I feel the question needs clarifying.
> 
> _"On the World sports stage which Irish person has achieved the greatest success?"_
> 
> AOB is the only person who can claim to be at the absolute summit of his sport on this planet, and by a country mile. All the others mentioned in this thread have done well relative to other Irish people but would not be World Best, except maybe the _GAA-GAAs_ but surely they don't count.


 
The thing is Aidan O'Brien needs good horses and good jockeys to be where he is. So its a combination of all three with him. So credit must go to his jockeys and horses also. Its hard to put that against say Padraig Harrington, John Treacy etc., who have to get out there and do it themselves.


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## delboy159 (13 Aug 2008)

Harchibald said:


> I feel the question needs clarifying.
> 
> _"On the World sports stage which Irish person has achieved the greatest success?"_
> 
> AOB is the only person who can claim to be at the absolute summit of his sport on this planet, and by a country mile. All the others mentioned in this thread have done well relative to other Irish people but would not be World Best, except maybe the _GAA-GAAs_ but surely they don't count.


 
Based on that logic Butch Harmon is the greatest American sports success, as his stable includes Tiger Woods (early in career), Phil Mickelson and Ernie Els, to name the biggest winners!!!  A trainer who has no control in the actual event and no where near as much control as the horse or the jockey could never be considered an achiever of a win in his own right.

To answer the simple question, I believe Harrington is by far our greatest sporting success. 

To be the best GAA player in Irish history still only means you are the best in a country of 4.5m people.  To be a success at a global game puts you head and shoulders above billions...  Therefore only international athletes could be our greatest sportsperson.

To be fair in this assesment I think the popularity and participation in a sport is a big factor in it's value.  There is no way I could agree with anyone who says a synchronised swimming Olympic medal is comparable with a 100m sprint medal!

Golf is a massivley popular sport - worldwide and thus any victory at a major is comparable with a "big particpation" Olympic medal or World Cup soccer medal.  Harrington I believe hit the same bracket as John Tracey, Ronnie Delaney etc. with his first major.  To defend his British Open and then win back to back majors puts him in the bracket of a 200m/400m Olympic sprint double in the same Olympics.  No Irish athlete has ever gone to that level before.  

I exclude Stephen Roche and Michelle Smyth for obvious reasons..


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## rmelly (13 Aug 2008)

Pique318 said:


> Time for a controversial one...Eddie Irvine. Irelands greatest motor racing driver ever. Took no crap from anyone, nearly won the title (in Schumachers absence) but for a messed up pit-stop, but yet people think of him as the laughing stock 'mad Irishman' driver who was only after the best party.


 
Nah - you can't put lost titles down to a single event like a pit stop, all contenders suffer problems during the season - whether it happens in the first or last race ultimately has the same effect (e.g. Hakkinen in Monza). Irvine had plenty of luck that season, not least Schumachers accident. He was uncompetitive too many times including being outperformed by 'journeyman' Salo on occasion (e.g. Monza & Hockenheim), as well as requiring a resurrecting helping hand from Schumacher in Malaysia.

He had a task to do on in the final race of the season and he dropped the ball all weekend. He qualified fifth and finished 95 seconds down on Hakkinen (and 90 down on Schumacher) - a lifetime in F1, regardless of what he may have lost in a pitstop.


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## csirl (13 Aug 2008)

What about Ronnie O'Brien, he won Time Magazines Person of the Centrury - surely nobody can beat that?


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## ubiquitous (13 Aug 2008)

FredBloggs said:


> Of course Kelly and roche never tested positive so we have to give them the benefit of the doubt.
> BTW do you remember one of the tours when Kellys team were doing really well in all the tour categories (I think he was riding for Panasonic) when the team suddenly all had to withdraw with a bad case of "food poisioning"?



Interesting article from the Irish Times archive here

[broken link removed]



> Roche denies taking EPO
> 
> By Johnny Watterson and Paddy Agnew
> 
> ...


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## rmelly (13 Aug 2008)

csirl said:


> What about Ronnie O'Brien, he won Time Magazines Person of the Centrury - surely nobody can beat that?


 
Almost - but not quite:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronnie_O'Brien



> O'Brien was taken out of the running, because Time officials said not enough people had heard of him. The official rules stated, "whimsical candidates will not be counted."


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## Duke of Marmalade (13 Aug 2008)

Ash 22 said:


> The thing is Aidan O'Brien needs good horses and good jockeys to be where he is. So its a combination of all three with him. So credit must go to his jockeys and horses also. Its hard to put that against say Padraig Harrington, John Treacy etc., who have to get out there and do it themselves.


Good point _Ash_. That's why I avoided calling AOB the best Irish _sportsperson_. Would you agree that AOB/Coolmore, the team, are achieving far more than that grinding QF bore of Italia '90, and getting far less credit. On individual achievement I suppose I have to give it to Padraig.


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## Ash 22 (13 Aug 2008)

Of course he's had fantastic success but as you say as part of a team. 
I'm glad you agree Padraig as an individual, then how I wonder does John Treacy fare against Padraig, having put 2 world titles back to back and an olympic medal. Very hard one.


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## soy (14 Aug 2008)

AOB should be looked as a manager/coach as his role has more to do with getting the best out of his horses/jockeys. There is no doubt but that he is world class and probably Irelands best ever person in a coaching role.
For individual sportsman, it is now hard to look past Harrington as he is now a repeat winner at the highest level in a world sport.


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## Sunny (14 Aug 2008)

soy said:


> AOB should be looked as a manager/coach as his role has more to do with getting the best out of his horses/jockeys. There is no doubt but that he is world class and probably Irelands best ever person in a coaching role.
> For individual sportsman, it is now hard to look past Harrington as he is now a repeat winner at the highest level in a world sport.


 

People could argue with some justification as to whether Golf is a truely global sport. It is still an elitist sport in alot of Countries and not played to a high level in alot more. Not trying to minimise Harringtons achievement. He is Ireland's greatest ever GOLFER but as I said before you can't compare sports.


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## MrMan (14 Aug 2008)

> I feel the question needs clarifying.
> 
> "On the World sports stage which Irish person has achieved the greatest success?"
> 
> AOB is the only person who can claim to be at the absolute summit of his sport on this planet, and by a country mile. All the others mentioned in this thread have done well relative to other Irish people but would not be World Best, except maybe the GAA-GAAs but surely they don't count.



Except there are so many instances of fixed races etc that its hard to really judge individual trainers. He is a great trainer but the horse is the star in the sport.



> The thing is Aidan O'Brien needs good horses and good jockeys to be where he is. So its a combination of all three with him. So credit must go to his jockeys and horses also. Its hard to put that against say Padraig Harrington, John Treacy etc., who have to get out there and do it themselves.


Of course you can put that against harrington, do you think he trained himself. every sport consists of trainers and assistants (caddys) so he can share the glory aswell.



> To be the best GAA player in Irish history still only means you are the best in a country of 4.5m people. To be a success at a global game puts you head and shoulders above billions... Therefore only international athletes could be our greatest sportsperson.



Well using that logic Michael Carruth would be the greatest having won gold in one of the truly international sports that is accessible to all levels of society. I wouldn't consider Carruth a greater achiever that say shefflin or dj carey.


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## MrMan (14 Aug 2008)

Harchibald said:


> Good point _Ash_. That's why I avoided calling AOB the best Irish _sportsperson_. Would you agree that AOB/Coolmore, the team, are achieving far more than that grinding QF bore of Italia '90, and getting far less credit. On individual achievement I suppose I have to give it to Padraig.



that grinding bore in 1990 was over one tournament so you cant really compare a lifetimes work against two weeks of soccer.


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## Caveat (14 Aug 2008)

OK, controverisal as many would argue that it's not exactly a sport, and I guess he himself would argue that he's not exactly Irish, but....

_Alex Higgins?_

Often wildly inconsistent, yes, but twice world champion, many other titles and arguably the best raw talent the game has ever seen or ever will see.


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## MrMan (14 Aug 2008)

Well its as much a sport as golf so lets not forget Ken Doherty once world champ and no doubts about his irishness


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## Duke of Marmalade (14 Aug 2008)

rmelly said:


> This is the second olympics where he has won 5 or more gold medals - in swimming terms they would be considered diverse events, many of the competitors are different and even if they aren't diverse it shouldn't in any way take away from the achievement - Michael Johnson 'only' ran, Michael Schumacher 'only' drove an F1 car, Michael Jordan 'only' played basketball well - all are considered sporting greats in a seperate league to anything Ireland has ever produced.


Phelps prob best swimmer of all time. But really, these multiple golds!! On track all races are freestyle. Imagine a race with arms stretched out, a race with arms by your side, a race with arms flapping like a bird etc. etc. How many medals would Carl Lewis have won then?


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## MrMan (14 Aug 2008)

except maybe hurdles.


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## z106 (14 Aug 2008)

Harchibald said:


> Phelps prob best swimmer of all time. But really, these multiple golds!! On track all races are freestyle. Imagine a race with arms stretched out, a race with arms by your side, a race with arms flapping like a bird etc. etc. How many medals would Carl Lewis have won then?


 
I agree with you.


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## Ash 22 (14 Aug 2008)

MrMan said:


> Of course you can put that against harrington, do you think he trained himself. every sport consists of trainers and assistants (caddys) so he can share the glory aswell.
> 
> 
> I know every sport has its trainers etc, on the big day when it all matters it has to be Harrington etc has to get out there and perform and do the tough work.
> With horse racing should it not be the horse that is the star of the day.


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## MrMan (14 Aug 2008)

Ash 22 said:


> MrMan said:
> 
> 
> > Of course you can put that against harrington, do you think he trained himself. every sport consists of trainers and assistants (caddys) so he can share the glory aswell.
> ...


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## csirl (14 Aug 2008)

Horse racing isnt recognised by the Irish Sports Council, so its not officially a sport in Ireland.


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## rmelly (14 Aug 2008)

Harchibald said:


> Phelps prob best swimmer of all time. But really, these multiple golds!! On track all races are freestyle. Imagine a race with arms stretched out, a race with arms by your side, a race with arms flapping like a bird etc. etc. How many medals would Carl Lewis have won then?


 


			
				qwertyuiop said:
			
		

> I agree with you.


 
Lewis won in 2 seperate types of event ONLY - running & long jump. The use of the term 'diverse events' is misleading - 2 not 5 or 10. Plus lets not forget his achievements should be caveated http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Lewis#Performance-enhancing_drug_use


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## rmelly (14 Aug 2008)

csirl said:


> Horse racing isnt recognised by the Irish Sports Council, so its not officially a sport in Ireland.


 
'officially a sport'? You're taking this thread too seriously. Since when did we need the approval of a quango to say what is and isn't a sport?


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## ubiquitous (14 Aug 2008)

csirl said:


> Horse racing isnt recognised by the Irish Sports Council, so its not officially a sport in Ireland.



As the great John O'Shea (of Goal) once said when asked had he any interest in horse racing "horse racing is an industry, not a sport"


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## Remix (14 Aug 2008)

I heard the Olympics described as a competition to see which country has the best pharmacists !

So now we know where to place the blame for any lack of achievement in the Olympics


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## diarmuidc (14 Aug 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> Interesting article from the Irish Times archive here
> 
> [broken link removed]



You might be interested in this article and this 8 min video.

BTW EPO only came on the cycling scene in the '91 Tour de France. So it's  likely his famous '87 season was not EPO fuelled.


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## z104 (14 Aug 2008)

Michelle Smith, 3 golds and 1 bronze.


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## Sunny (14 Aug 2008)

Niallers said:


> Michelle Smith, 3 golds and 1 bronze.


 
Not a chance in a million years. Best Irish cheat maybe.


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## BoscoTalking (14 Aug 2008)

if hide and seek was a sport would DawnRun be a contender in this debate?


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## MrMan (14 Aug 2008)

Shergar would take that prize.


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## MrMan (14 Aug 2008)

The thing about michelle smith and cheating is interesting when you think of all of the cheating that goes on every weekend that changes the course of where medals go. Look at the diving for penalties, holding back players, feigning injury, deliberating hurting another player, even go back to the 'hand of god' and cheating is prevalent in every sport yet only athlethics and cycling 'cheats' get demonised. There is a difference in how they cheat but surely cheating is cheating so can we get off her back and move on.


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## Caveat (14 Aug 2008)

I agree MrMan.


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## rmelly (14 Aug 2008)

Sunny said:


> Not a chance in a million years. Best Irish cheat maybe.


 
I'd imagine there are athlete out there that are better cheaters - in that they haven't been caught.


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## Duke of Marmalade (14 Aug 2008)

Niallers said:


> Michelle Smith, 3 golds and 1 bronze.


Even if these medals were pristine pure, I rate 3 swimming golds about equal to 1 track gold. Ronnie Delaney won a Gold at 1500 metres. That is the Blue Riband of the OG and to my mind RD qualifies as Ireland's best Olympic athlete *even if* Michelle Brown was clean.


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## FredBloggs (14 Aug 2008)

MrMan said:


> The thing about michelle smith and cheating is interesting when you think of all of the cheating that goes on every weekend that changes the course of where medals go. Look at the diving for penalties, holding back players, feigning injury, deliberating hurting another player, even go back to the 'hand of god' and cheating is prevalent in every sport yet only athlethics and cycling 'cheats' get demonised. There is a difference in how they cheat but surely cheating is cheating so can we get off her back and move on.


 
a very good point.


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## Mpsox (14 Aug 2008)

What about Christy Ring, Mick Mackey, Eddie Kehir, Mick O'Connell?. After all, no matter what Harrington has done, no one was marking him!!!! 

As for Aidan O'Brien, great achivements, but how much of that was down to the fact that other people's money gave him the best horses in the first place. And if you say Aidan O'Brien was the best, where does that leave his namesake, Vincent O'Brien?. Frankly I'd put someone like Christy Roche ahead of any trainer

If you are talking about acheivers instead of pure talent, what about Denis Irwin?, how many medals did he walk away with from his time at Man U.


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## FredBloggs (14 Aug 2008)

Best Irish Sporting Achiever Ever!


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## Duke of Marmalade (14 Aug 2008)

Mpsox said:


> As for Aidan O'Brien, great achivements, but how much of that was down to the fact that other people's money gave him the best horses in the first place. And if you say Aidan O'Brien was the best, where does that leave his namesake, Vincent O'Brien?


 
I am being forced to amend my words as the thread develops. My point is that Horse Racing and AOB in particular is a HUGE success story for Ireland. We are a world superpower in that arena. Probably the greatest over achievement of any country relative to its size in any sphere, and not just sport. When's the last time Mary McaFleece praised AOB, or Cowan or Kenny etc. etc.? No votes in Horse Racing, I guess.

(VOB was a colossus as well, but AOB is probably on course to surpass him.)


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## Duke of Marmalade (14 Aug 2008)

FredBloggs said:


> Best Irish Sporting Achiever Ever!




Arkle?


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## DavyJones (14 Aug 2008)

FredBloggs said:


> Best Irish Sporting Achiever Ever!




Sorry to go off topic, but can someone please tell me how to do that to a link?


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## Ash 22 (14 Aug 2008)

Are Vincent O'Brien and Aidan O'Brien related?


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## TarfHead (14 Aug 2008)

Ash 22 said:


> Are Vincent O'Brien and Aidan O'Brien related?



No

I agree that AOB is a master of his domain, but horse racing would not, IMHO, count as something eligible for the title of *Best Irish sport achievement*. 'His' horses don't represent Ireland _per se_; they represent the bank accounts and ego of the Ballydoyle owners.


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## gianni (14 Aug 2008)

Harchibald said:


> I rate 3 swimming golds about equal to 1 track gold.



Interesting opinion... what's your logic behind it ?


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## Duke of Marmalade (14 Aug 2008)

gianni said:


> Interesting opinion... what's your logic behind it ?


butterfly, freestyle,  breast-stroke. Why don't we have egg+spoon, three legged, blindfold etc. on track, all we have is freestyle.

If you are best at swimming, you have made a bit of a bags of it just to pick up only one gold medal.


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## gianni (14 Aug 2008)

You're obviously not a swimmer yourself Harchibald!

The four swimming strokes - Butterfly, Breaststroke, Backstroke & Front Crawl are very different disciplines. Michael Phelps is a phenomenon (as was Ian Thorpe & Mark Spitz), it's rare to have multiple winners of such a range of events in swimming.


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## Duke of Marmalade (14 Aug 2008)

gianni said:


> You're obviously not a swimmer yourself Harchibald!
> 
> The four swimming strokes - Butterfly, Breaststroke, Backstroke & Front Crawl are very different disciplines. Michael Phelps is a phenomenon (as was Ian Thorpe & Mark Spitz), it's rare to have multiple winners of such a range of events in swimming.


Make that 5 swimming golds = 1 track gold.


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## Sunny (15 Aug 2008)

Ok how about we forget about best Irish sporting achiever because it is a pointless exercise.

How about whats your most enjoyable Irish sporting moment? It could be your local GAA club winning the local derby or it could be Stuttgart in 88.


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## Teabag (15 Aug 2008)

Sunny said:


> How about whats your most enjoyable Irish sporting moment? It could be your local GAA club winning the local derby or it could be Stuttgart in 88.



1998 All Ireland Football Final. Galway. Donnellan, Fallon, Joyce. Epic !


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## Duke of Marmalade (15 Aug 2008)

Sunny said:


> Ok how about we forget about best Irish sporting achiever because it is a pointless exercise.
> 
> How about whats your most enjoyable Irish sporting moment? It could be your local GAA club winning the local derby or it could be Stuttgart in 88.


Without hesitation, Denis Taylor winning 1985 World Snooker Championship on last ball of last frame.


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## MrMan (15 Aug 2008)

Sunny said:


> Ok how about we forget about best Irish sporting achiever because it is a pointless exercise.
> 
> How about whats your most enjoyable Irish sporting moment? It could be your local GAA club winning the local derby or it could be Stuttgart in 88.



It was me side footing the winning penalty into the top left corner in a shootout to send us to our first final, it was like Italia 90 all over again!


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## FredBloggs (15 Aug 2008)

I think as a nation we've punched above our weight in recent years. When I was a boy the thought of (a) an Irish football team going to a world cup (b) an Irishman winning the tour de France and (c) an Irishman winning a major in golf was unimaginable. But all three have been done. We've been to 3 world cups, an Irish man has won 3 majors and not alone has an Irishman won the Tour de France but also the Giro de Italia, the Cycling world Championship and The Vuelta (Tour of Spain - Sean Kelly). 

We've had great champions - but we don't produce consistently in any sport. We had Roche and Kelly - top of the world in cycling, then nothing. Sonia O'Sullivan - top of the world in Womens Athletics - then good but not great athletes. Now we have Harrington. After him we'll probably revert to having our usual good pros and wondering when next will an Irishman win the Irish open


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## MrMan (15 Aug 2008)

Hopefully now we will realise that we are not punching above our weight and gain the confidence to produce more and more stars.


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## Caveat (15 Aug 2008)

Harchibald said:


> Without hesitation, Denis Taylor winning 1985 World Snooker Championship on last ball of last frame.


 
...better still (as long as we can call Higgins Irish) the 1982 world championship semi final: _Alex Higgins v Jimmy White; _probably the best quality snooker ever on TV.


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## gianni (15 Aug 2008)

Harchibald said:


> Make that 5 swimming golds = 1 track gold.



why not 6...


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## DavyJones (15 Aug 2008)

Sunny said:


> Ok how about we forget about best Irish sporting achiever because it is a pointless exercise.
> 
> How about whats your most enjoyable Irish sporting moment? It could be your local GAA club winning the local derby or it could be Stuttgart in 88.




Munster being Champions of Europe...........twice


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## rmelly (15 Aug 2008)

Harchibald said:


> Make that 5 swimming golds = 1 track gold.


 
If swimming medals are so easy to win why aren't the top 10 medal winners ALL swimmers?


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## Ash 22 (16 Aug 2008)

Any medals don't come easy at that level I reckon.


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## Duke of Marmalade (16 Aug 2008)

Michael Johnson on BBC said that Usain Bolt's performance in 100 metres eclipsed anything that MP has achieved. I agree.


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## rmelly (16 Aug 2008)

Harchibald said:


> Michael Johnson on BBC said that Usain Bolt's performance in 100 metres eclipsed anything that MP has achieved. I agree.


 
And what does Mark Spitz say? Michael Johnson is hardly an impartial judge.


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## z104 (16 Aug 2008)

Munster winning the European cup twice


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## Sunny (18 Aug 2008)

Harchibald said:


> Michael Johnson on BBC said that Usain Bolt's performance in 100 metres eclipsed anything that MP has achieved. I agree.


 
Again what is the point in trying to belittle someones achievements in one sport by comparing them to another. Bolts performance was probably one of the greatest athletic performances of all time and it had me out of my seat. Phelps achievement is the greatest that swimming has ever seen and he also had me glued to the tv watching him. I enjoyed watching both enter the history books are count myself lucky that I was here to see them because they will still be talked about in 50 years time.

My greatest Irish sporting moments are usually the ones I was at in person. I witnessed Sonia winning silver in Sydney olympics and I will never forget that. I saw Munster win the first European Cup. I saw Clare hurlers win the All Ireland in 1995 after a 80 year wait. I saw Ireland batter England in a 1-1 draw in Wembley in 1991 and I saw Brian O Driscoll score his hatrick in Paris.

Just wish I could claim to be have there when Munster beat the All Blacks!!

Worst Irish sporting moment was the Lansdowne road riots and I know this will offend some people, Michelle Smith/De Bruin winning those medals


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## DavyJones (18 Aug 2008)

Sunny said:


> Just wish I could claim to be have there when Munster beat the All Blacks!!



Why can't you? Everybody over a certain age has claimed to be there, must have been  a bigger stadium back in those days.


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## Sunny (18 Aug 2008)

DavyJones said:


> Why can't you? Everybody over a certain age has claimed to be there, must have been a bigger stadium back in those days.


 
Not over that certain age!


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## dereko1969 (20 Aug 2008)

Ireland beating Pakistan at the Cricket World Cup last year. Given the amount of cricketers in Ireland versus that in Pakistan, the fact that Pakistan had to win or go out of the World Cup and the fact that the Umpires kept play going in appalling light to do everything they could to let Pakistan win amounts to the best for me.


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## DavyJones (20 Aug 2008)

dereko1969 said:


> Ireland beating Pakistan at the Cricket World Cup last year. Given the amount of cricketers in Ireland versus that in Pakistan, the fact that Pakistan had to win or go out of the World Cup and the fact that the Umpires kept play going in appalling light to do everything they could to let Pakistan win amounts to the best for me.




Most of the "Irish" team are Aussie , I think they qualify because they married Irish women and have lived here for over 5 years! A bit like the Italia 90 soccer team


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## Sunny (21 Aug 2008)

DavyJones said:


> Most of the "Irish" team are Aussie , I think they qualify because they married Irish women and have lived here for over 5 years! A bit like the Italia 90 soccer team


 
Thats a bit harsh. There were I think 4 people who weren't born here. England had at least 3 'foreign' born players in their team including our own Ed Joyce. Beating Pakistan was a great moment. I enjoyed that Paddy's day!


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## Duke of Marmalade (23 Aug 2008)

I really have to let off steam. Eamon Coghlan asked just now on RTE who was the best, Bolt or Bekele?  Undoubtedly Bekele, sure Bolt only ran 100 and 200 while Bekele ran 5000 and 10,000.


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## monkeyboy (24 Aug 2008)

Harchibald said:


> I really have to let off steam. Eamon Coghlan asked just now on RTE who was the best, Bolt or Bekele?  Undoubtedly Bekele, sure Bolt only ran 100 and 200 while Bekele ran 5000 and 10,000.



I dont know the answer to this but did Bekele win the race by 500m or 1k over 2nd place, were they both world records?

Bolt was at least 10m clear in his 100m and to be 10m clear in such a short even is absolutely, insanely, ridiculously, superior running to the 2nd best of the best in the world.

If the answer is no to one or both of these then I would say Bolt also.


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## Sunny (24 Aug 2008)

Harchibald said:


> I really have to let off steam. Eamon Coghlan asked just now on RTE who was the best, Bolt or Bekele? Undoubtedly Bekele, sure Bolt only ran 100 and 200 while Bekele ran 5000 and 10,000.


 
Again, how do you answer that? By using your logic, the marathon winner is a better athlete than Bekele. Bolt would destroy Bekele over 100-400 metres. Bekele would destroy Bolt over longer distances. Both are superb athletes who lit up my olympics and certainly Bolt managed something that I thought wouldn't happen after all the recent drug cases. He got me excited about the 100m. Also remember the 200m world record was considered untouchable by many. Both will probably go down as all time greats so was a privilage to watch them.


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## Duke of Marmalade (24 Aug 2008)

Sunny said:


> Again, how do you answer that? By using your logic, the marathon winner is a better athlete than Bekele. Bolt would destroy Bekele over 100-400 metres. Bekele would destroy Bolt over longer distances. Both are superb athletes who lit up my olympics and certainly Bolt managed something that I thought wouldn't happen after all the recent drug cases. He got me excited about the 100m. Also remember the 200m world record was considered untouchable by many. Both will probably go down as all time greats so was a privilage to watch them.


Oh no. You misunderstand, it was EC who answered "undoubtedly Bekele...". *His* logic, but them he was a middle distance runner. Such bullsh**. I think as the boy monkey has stated, the relative performance of Bolt vis a vis his peers and vis a vis the World surpassed Bekele, he has done best, even though I much more enjoyed watching all 15,000 metres of Bekele.


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## Sunny (25 Aug 2008)

Harchibald said:


> Oh no. You misunderstand, it was EC who answered "undoubtedly Bekele...". *His* logic, but them he was a middle distance runner. Such bullsh**. I think as the boy monkey has stated, the relative performance of Bolt vis a vis his peers and vis a vis the World surpassed Bekele, he has done best, even though I much more enjoyed watching all 15,000 metres of Bekele.


 
Oh Sorry. I totally agree with you.


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