# Engagement rings and diamonds in Antwerp



## cernunnos

Just recently went looking for an engagement ring with herself and the story is well worth sharing for those looking to save thousands of euro!

We went to some of the well known jewellers around Dublin and Leinster, the ones just off Grafton street and elsewhere, were given champagne and chocolates and a salesperson presented us with various rings for herself to try on. Herself was loving it but i was not as i wanted value for money. Also if you work for certain big consultancy companies in Dublin and you present a company card to some of these jewellers off Grafton street you automatically get at least 20% off.... so i had a saddle on my back as soon as i walked in the door!

Did some more research and heard on the grapevine that Antwerp in Belgium is the place to go. Some message boards did not fill me with confidence about this but on digging further i found out that some of the message board moderators were jewellers (true for www.weddingsonline.ie anyhoow).... so i headed for Antwerp.

Ryanair fly into Charleroi airport south of Brussels - www.ryanair.com
There is a shuttle bus from the airport to the train station and a direct train from Charleroi South to Antwerp Central - 
Stayed in the Alfa De Keyser hotel which is 50 yards from central train station - [broken link removed]
Use Mapquest to get your bearings in the city www.mapquest.com
You can have your complete itinerary planned and printed out before you set foot out your front door.

All travel and accomodation cost us €450 total for 4 days and can probably be had for less depending on when you book.

There is an issue in Antwerp with dodgy jewelers. To combat this the Antwerp Diamond Jewellers Association has been set up by the government - [broken link removed] It can't tell you who not to go to so it informs you of who you should go to: check out the members section. The current 5 members were located within 250 metres of the hotelwe stayed in: check the map on that site.

I couldn't praise those 5 jewellers highly enough. We met with gemologists and jewellry designers with huge amounts of experience and knowledge. They each sat us down and told us different bits of information about choosing rings, ring settings, characteristics of diamonds, what suited herselfs hands, etc. in much more detail that any printout on 'The 4 C's' (which are the basics and you must know anyhow if your reading this thread) or any salesperson could. The emphasis with these jewellers is the ring itself and the design of it as the diamond is governed by how much you intend spending afterwards. The knowledge we gained will not be found in Ireland cause if it was we would all know we're being rode when it comes to the price of diamonds

In the end we designed our own ring and had it made by Philippe Harold - [broken link removed]. Harold is a gentleman, full of common sense and helpful suggestions with his vast experience. It took 2 weeks to make the ring and he kept us well informed over email including pictures of the ring. I went out again 2 weeks later to collect it: absolutely no problems. He doesn't work Saturdays because as he says himself "professionals don't work weekends" and he was extremely professional in his approach and dealings with us.

Certification is a very important aspect of buying any diamond and all members of the ADJA provide certs, IGI is the most common one. I was afraid of losing the cert on my way home so i sent it by registered post  You might want to do the same!

If you intend getting a ring the time you are there this is also very possible. Each member of the ADJA has various rings which you can simply choose and then select a diamond for depending on your budget - DiamondLand specialises in this 'same day' purchase model. We went for 4 days which allowed us plenty of time to learn about rings and diamonds from all the experts so if possible go for at least 2 days.

I reckon we saved at least €1500 on the ring by going to Antwerp and we had a great holiday also as it is a great spot for a city-break.

In a nutshell get your ass over to Antwerp as it was fantastic. Herself has a smile on her face cause she has a fantastic ring and i have a smile on my face cause i got fantastic value (and she said yes


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## BillK

If you want a good diamond ring you should try the De Beers outlet shop at the Big Hole in Kimberley, South Africa. Definitely not the cheapest option but a great trip.


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## Lyndan

I got a de beers ring in Venice for good value....a jewellery shop in the piazza san marco...fabulous

I love it!!


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## macg

have to agree with the first poster about dublin. 
I had exact same experience when I was looking for a diamond engagement ring (In DUblin). Found the Antwerp offer in a slightly different way. Was pointed to www.diamant.ie (on merrion sq.) by a ladyfriend of mine. They bring Diamonds, (rings settings etc) direct from wholesale jeweller in Antwerp. 
Myself and the soon to be Missus, Got ours valued and it was 60% more than we paid for it. Know that insurace companies add a couple of quid but thats still incredible. Probably Saved a couple of grand on what we were looking at, also learned a hell of a lot more from them about rings and diamonds then off the grafton street guys. 
To be honest the service was fantastic, they give you a private meeting, talk about budgets, diamond types costs, settings everything.... Even if you were going to buy somewhere else or fly to Antwerp you should use them to learn about diamonds.. 
Defo recommend using the Antwerp connection, whether through Diamant or by going flying over there (see first poster Ive never been). It really is ridiculous that you can still save over a grand In Ireland by using the European connection.


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## liner

I cannot agree more. Mr. Liner and I also went Ryanair to Brussels and got the train to Antwerp. We purchased from Paul in Orsinis. [broken link removed] We made a huge saving and had a nice city break at the same time. And if they don't have the size, quality, colour, shape that you want, they can get it for you, which is what we did - we just flew Ryanair back again a week later to collect it. We didn't even have to fly back to collect it if we didn't want to - they would have fedexed it to us under insurance but we preferred to go back ourselves. You will definitely get better value for your money in Antwerp. We got a further reduction on the price of the ring if we paid cash. It's win, win.


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## michaelm

Do you not feel that the diamond market is a false one controlled by De Beers who keep the price artificially high?  Can you really tell the difference between diamond and cubic zirconia?  Do you think diamond is worth the cost difference?  I can't understand why people pay big money for such things.


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## naughton

michaelm, I agree with you whole heartedly! I know this is slightly off topic but I have often wondered in the past has anyone braved it and bought a ring with a different stone!?? 

I have seen different gem stones but they are usually surounded or flanked by diamonds. I know of only one person who braved it and went for emerald stones. I am sure there is some history behind why it's a Diamond (Diamonds are forever etc), but would the money not be better spent going to a jewlery designer (colleges in Ireland produce many every year) and getting one personalised with different gemstones/unusual mounts etc.

I hate to say it, but too many people wear the same standard engagement rings, with the only varient being on sizes and sparkle!!


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## jammacjam

I agree too, they all look the same. The reason that everyone has diamonds for their ring is brilliant marketing on the part of De Beers, who also promoted the fashion for eternity rings when new mines were discovered with smaller diamonds.


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## antimonarch

for diamonds in dublin the only place for transparency and value for money is "Irish Rubies" on marlborough street. its slightly off the beat and track and seems an unfashionable place to purcahse a diamond but when you see how far your money goes compared to grafton st you will be delighted. forget about antwerp the same deals can be had in ireland


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## DJC

Bought "our" ring in Antwerp at the beginning of August. Probably didn't 'save' money, as we spent the same amount as we budgeted on a better quality rock, but the same one over here is being quoted at 2,000+ higher than we paid. IMO it's well worth doing. 

You may benefit from some observations: When you arrive (by train) you are in the diamond district, as evidences by the dozens of diamond shops; but we were warned not to buy in the ones around the station- they are typically smaller and cheaper looking. 

Very few of the jewelers are affiliated with the Belgian Diamond sellers association; I can’t remember the name, so that was a bit off-putting. We bought in one that wasn’t a member but we had the certificate so reckoned it was OK.

If you go to some of the bigger dealers like DiamondLand you’ll see a huge range, probably more choice there than in all of Dublin put together. My advice is decide in somewhere like this what you want to get in terms of cut carat clarity etc. (and they have a huge selection of settings also) but don’t buy there, look around. When you go into a shop and can say show me a 1.2 carat, VVS1, blah blah, you will find they cut out a lot of the sales chatter and you'll get down to business much quicker. 

Many of them seem to have permanent "sales" advertising up to 70% discount so there is huge scope for haggling. When you know exactly what kind of ring you want my advice is to find two or three shops where you trust them and negotiate a best price but insist that you have to leave to continue looking. And do leave. You will hear excuses that they have to return the loose diamonds to dealers (some places keep a limited stock and so ring a nearby dealer to have the diamonds you are looking delivered to the shop for your inspection) and that they cant guarantee you that it will be there when you come back, but I would say this is the only way to get their lowest price out of them.

Also they will offer fairly big discounts for part or whole payment in cash, if you don’t feel nervous about carrying 000's around with you, it’s well worth while, and I wish I had known that before I went. 

Unlike here, most of them don't even think about charging you for the ring setting etc.(unless it's platinum).

One other thing to consider is the certification. The certified diamonds come in little sealed plastic boxes with certificates from HRD, DHC, IGL or some of the other diamond associations. I have seen some conflicting advice about which of them is best, some of the shops suggest that IGL has margin of error, i.e. they say your diamond is say VVS1, but that's with some margin of error +/-.  So if you have it valued you might find it's slightly better or worse than you thought.
Most of the dealers take the diamond out of the boxes to examine the diamonds and show their customers. I think that’s where trust comes into play. The average person can’t tell the difference between two diamonds whose value doffer by thousands. So when you are buying you have to make sure that you get the certificate, that was at least you have proof that you bought a certain standard of diamond and if you get it valued and it turns out to be something different then you'll have some comeback, through credit card or whatever.  Some of them offer to have the diamond re sealed by the certifying body for a cost of something like 25 euro, that way you can buy your diamond with confidence and take it home and have it set by your Irish jeweler or whatever. 

Its also worthwhile looking around for the wedding ring to match. Looked while we were there and even though we had no intention of buying the shop came down by 1000 from the RRP on the original ticked, to about 1/3 of the price. Haggling definitely pays off. Most of them will go through the charade of typing numbers into their calculators and trying to give the impression that they're figuring out how low they can go, IMO walking out is the best tactic, you can always come back if you can’t get a better price elsewhere.

You can spend as much time looking around in the various shops around the district. We got it all done in a day but you could spend days looking around if you wanted. The shops near the main shopping st (cant remember the name of it) seem to be the best in terms of presentation etc. but not the cheapest. Orsini's seems to be the equivalent of Weirs in Dublin. The smaller shops around Diamondland and the streets near the IGL and DHC HRD buildings seemed trustworthy, but the ones near the station did seem seedier.

Antwerp itself is nice enough, but apparently there are nicer places elsewhere in Belgium where diamonds are just as affordable but I think you'll get the biggest choice in Antwerp. Other shopping is fairly standard city centre fare, no cheaper than Dublin as far as I could see.  

Don't go diamond shopping at the end July/ early Aug as this is when the dealers go on holidays. We were lucky in that some of them were opened, but a week later we would have had more choice. 

For travel details on getting to Antwerp, see posts above.


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## mclaj

Again I agree with the first poster. Only just back from Antwerp since Saturday morning. We actually read the details from the first poster initially and decided to give Antwerp a go.  We got an Aerlingus Flight for less than 100 euros each and stayed in the the Alfa De Keyser hotel. Aer Lingus only fly into Brussels, but there is a bus that only takes 45 minutes from there to Antwerp for €8.00 per person - and it stops right outside the hotel.  

We stuck to the main diamond retailers approved by the Antwerp Diamond Council. Went to Diamondland first and thought it was a bit tacky (more for the older diamond purchaser perhaps). The next place we tried was J. Katz.  I found them to bit a little pushy and they kept showing us diamonds that were way out of our agreed budget which began to get a bit frustrating. At one stage the Sales person left us sitting there while he went in the back of the shop, with about 150K worth of diamonds just sitting on the table. I thought this was very slack and we decided that we'd move on and try the next vendor - which was Philippe Harold.

He was brilliant, as the first poster says - he was professional and courteous. He explained everything you need to know about diamonds in an unassuming and down to earth way, no BS and his complete undivided attention.  He let us look at the diamonds under different lights and went through cut, clarity, colour and carat - in great detail - but it was never boring. We avoided the rat race and over inflated prices of Dublin. With Philippe Harold we got excellent customer service and really felt like our custom was valued.  I have no doubt in my mind that we'd have NEVER received this level of attention in Dublin jewellers.  Plus the knowledge we gained was invaluable.  Harold even gave us a map and wrote out places for us to go and see during our visit - told us places to avoid and things to be aware of in the city.    We stayed for three days, visited him on day and collected the ring on day 3.  We saved about 2k on the ring compared to what they are charging for the same thing here.  We will definitely be recommending this place to all of our friends.

Plus Antwerp is a lovely city, really well contained with culture, some great outdoor music around the Grote Markt and plenty of beautiful little coffee shops to sit out and have a glass of vino during the shopping.

If you do decide to go shopping for an engagement ring, our advice is to ditch the Rip Off Republic and take a city break to Antwerp, go to Phillipe Harold and you won't be disappointed!  You will save lots of cash, have a fab couple of days and always have that experience to remember!  Happy shopping !


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## sulo

You saved 2k, thats great!... Could I be so rude to ask what you did pay for the ring?


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## moylan1

why bother going to antwerp. goto blackmans near grafton street. they build and sell to trade and will sell to private individuals. trade prices are roughly half the retail price when it comes to this sort of stuff. They sell all sort of stones and rings in all sorts of sizes. they probably make custom rings as they distribute to boutique/ designer jewellers. We bought our ring for 2000 euros 4 years ago. it was independantly valued at 3700 euros at the time, and it was revalued last month for insurance reasons for 4500 euros.


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## Nonie

Re Diamont.ie in Merrion Square.  Can you try on rings here or is it all done by photos?  Really want to look at a ring before buying or something similiar. Also wondering how long it takes to get ring made then?
Want best value in Ireland really - princess cut, platinum solitare!  All ideas appreciated.


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## Rois

How about a nearly new secondhand ring - have an almost new (!) platinum & diamond model that I would happily dispose of...


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## cik

Your spending a wack of cash on probably the most expensive jewelery of your life...do lots of research

Antwerp has been covered - its were most of diamonds enter Europe so why not go to the source...

You get USD 1.28 for every Eur 1 so why not look into New York or somewhere else in the US, at that increased spending power you can probably get a nice weekend for yourself and a ring for the same price.


If you are really adventerous go to India, Indian jewelers are threatening to put Antwerp out of business - google it


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## Mouldy

What is the budget required for buying a ring in Antwerp? Do the reputable jewellers mentioned in this thread have rings for couples who are on a budget but fancy the weekend break as a celebration of their engagment. Would Mr Philipe Harold have rings for under 2k? 1.5K? 1K?


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## RMcG

I also want to ask about people's experiences of buying rings in Antwerp.

Firstly I am buying the ring solo, no girlfriend in tow - aagh! So do they have a large selection of ready-made rings or is it mostly made-to-order?

Also do the jewelers open on Sat/Sun? The most convenient flights for me would be arrive Friday evening (prob after the shops have closed!) and leave Sun evening, so the ring would have to be bought Sat.

I was going to ask about whether it was worth while going for my budget (~5000 euro) but if someone answers Mouldy's question then I should be ok!

any advice appreciated!


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## ragazza

RMcG - you are very confident to be buying the ring solo! Do you have a very good idea as to the type of ring she'd like - e.g. gold or platinum / shape of stones / delicate or chunky band etc..
Best of luck!


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## RMcG

ragazza said:


> RMcG - you are very confident to be buying the ring solo! Do you have a very good idea as to the type of ring she'd like - e.g. gold or platinum / shape of stones / delicate or chunky band etc..
> Best of luck!


 
Yes I have a very good idea what she would like, white gold/platinum single stone, square cut (not sure what this is called, but I will have all my research done before I go!), she has been less than subtle in pointing out nice rings in jewellers' windows 

Even though she knows I am going to (eventually) propose, I still want it to be a surprise, it will involve much cloak-and-dagger trickery because she's going to be on high alert after my SSIA matures in April, which is why I intend to buy in Feb hee hee!


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## muffin1973

Hi RMcG & Mouldy

I've posted this before in similar threads but myself and my (now) husband bought my engagment ring in Antwerp - well, he bought it but we were together when he did.  Antwerp is a brilliant place for a weekend away, we really enjoyed it.  Like previous posters say we didn't go into the shops directly around the train station - they're pretty tacky looking.  We found an area with loads of nicer looking jewellery shops in it - seriously, it's shop after shop of jewellery - and I waited until I saw a ring I liked in the window of one of the shops before going in to try on.  There were loads of square cut rings but I wanted three round cut diamonds in a row (1.12 carats, white gold band).  The guy was very nice and worked hard for the sale, although he didn't really need to.  The minute I tried on the ring, not only did it fit perfectly but it was exactly what I wanted and I love it.   The guy then did a quick calculation on his calculator and swung it around for us to see.  We had to bite our tongues not to smile very broadly.  It was incredibly affordable.   
We got it valued this year and turns out it's worth more than twice what we paid for it (which was under €2k).

HTH

M


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## ragazza

RMcG said:


> Yes I have a very good idea what she would like, white gold/platinum single stone, square cut []
> 
> Just to let you know, white gold becomes tarnished over time, and goes dull with a yellow tinge. Supposedly this is an issue with white gold, and you'd need to get the ring treated every few years.
> 
> In the shop, white gold will seem much more sparkly than platinum (which has a duller greyer colour), but from my experience, for a ring she will be weaaring every day, I'd recommend platinum over white gold (even though it is more expensive).
> 
> The square shape is Princess cut, by the way!


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## RMcG

Thanks Ragazza and Muffin!

Muffin you didn't buy on a Saturday by any chance?

Also does anyone know what the story is with getting a ring resized,  how long would it take to change if the ring I picked out wasn't the right size?


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## annR

John Breretons on Chatam Str resized mine in about 45 mins on a busy Saturday afternoon same day we bought it.  We will definitely be getting our wedding bands there too.


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## muffin1973

Hi RMcG

No sorry we went over on a Tuesday and came back on a Thursday.  I assume the shops would be open on Saturdays but couldn't tell you for definite.

Just re Breretons - not the same thing as getting ring resized but we went in to ask them for an insurance valuation for the ring and basically the guy told me they don't do valuations and why didn't I just go with the value the ring cost?  I pointed out because we'd bought it abroad we thought it might be worth more than we paid for it but I think it's just not worth their while doing valuations on rings not bought in their shop and he wasn't interested, which is fair enough.  I did get the ring valued is ESL Jewellery in Powerscourt Townhouse and was very happy with the service and the valuation!  They could probably also do the resizing for you but not sure how long it'd take.

M


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## saintstephen

Hello, I am just deciding whether or not to buy a diamond ring and hoping some of the experts can advise me..
The ring I am looking at is 3 (fully certified G) Diamonds total 1.15 carot ,set into a straight line , the metal is platinum , the cost is 4k.


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## annR

muffin1973 said:


> Hi RMcG
> 
> No sorry we went over on a Tuesday and came back on a Thursday. I assume the shops would be open on Saturdays but couldn't tell you for definite.
> 
> Just re Breretons - not the same thing as getting ring resized but we went in to ask them for an insurance valuation for the ring and basically the guy told me they don't do valuations and why didn't I just go with the value the ring cost? I pointed out because we'd bought it abroad we thought it might be worth more than we paid for it but I think it's just not worth their while doing valuations on rings not bought in their shop and he wasn't interested, which is fair enough. I did get the ring valued is ESL Jewellery in Powerscourt Townhouse and was very happy with the service and the valuation! They could probably also do the resizing for you but not sure how long it'd take.
> 
> M


 
I had just bought my ring in Breretons which was probably why he was happy to re size it


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## Protocol

Saintstephen,

have a look at www.365-diamond.com, based in Birmingham.  I see a 3-stone ring with platinum, colour G, 1.00 carat, for 2000 stg.


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## Mourinho

SaintStephen - does that include any discount from your place of purchase?


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## jrewing

RMcG said:


> Thanks Ragazza and Muffin!
> 
> Muffin you didn't buy on a Saturday by any chance?
> 
> Also does anyone know what the story is with getting a ring resized, how long would it take to change if the ring I picked out wasn't the right size?


 

We picked out an engagement ring in Diamond Land in Antwerp. They resized it in less than an hour for us.


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## saintstephen

Thanks Mourinho and Protocol ,
I showed them the page from www.365-diamond.com and with a bit of hard haggling got the ring at a better price , so thanks for the advice ,I feel i've got a good deal !


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## bor

Anybody have any experience of buying diamonds in New York,reading very dodgy comments online about the diamond district,anyone know or have experience of a good reputable jeweler.


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## pasta

*Re: Engagement rings*

I have very little knowledge of engagement rings/diamonds etc. I've read most of the threads/advice on engagement rings and I've learned a lot. I want to surprise herself with an engagement ring and I was hoping to get some ideas on possible rings. She doesn't like rings/jewellery in general, so I have been thinking of getting something made up e.g. celtic theme engagement ring. Is it common to have designed type engagement rings (budget 2-3k) and could someone recommend a good jeweller in Dublin who can help me with advice on ideas etc? Any advice would be most appreciated.


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## decembersal

How do people go about paying for rings abroad? Do you bring a big wad of cash with you to haggle with?


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## Eoinsy

Hey all , 

Just from reading all above posts, particularly about Antwerp, I'm wondering if my intended budget of €3K is accurate or should I be looking for more? 
Herself has dropped serious hints at square diamond on a platinum band that narrows at the diamond.
Now, from reading all the previous posts, I think that means a Princess cut with platinum solitaire? am I correct with this one. 
Bottom line... help!


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## Aesop

On a slight aside how does Antwerp compare to NY. I have heard of a number of people going to NY for engagement rings.


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## decembersal

Princess cut is the name of the square shape. (Brilliant cut is circular)

Solitaire - means one diamond. 

Band - can be platinum, white or yellow gold. Platinum is the most expensive.



I have been looking on this website [broken link removed]

I tapped in the following details based on what you said below and this is what the website came back with..
Shape: Princess shape
Color: G
Carat: 0.70
Clarity: VS1
Price: 4,186.00 USD/Carat for delivery in Antwerp and for export outside the European Union (without local Belgian taxes).

That is about 3,245e for the diamond only. You'll have to factor in flights and a band for the ring as well.


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## muffin1973

Eoinsy - €3k in Antwerp should be enough - that was my husband's top price (well I'm sure he would have gone a little higher!) but my ring was way under that. Having said that, it is white gold, not platinum but given the price we paid, your €3k should be fine.

Decembersal - my husband paid for the ring on his credit card...

HTH

M


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## Mouldy

I bought my beloved’s ring in Antwerp. A platinum band was around E700 whereas a White gold band was E250 – Big saving given that they look identical. Also WG is better for setting stones in.

The price of the diamond will be given in dollars, then converted to euros. In Antwerp, a 21% tax applied to the total price. You need to ask the jeweller if this tax is included in the prices he is giving you over the counter when you enquire. More than likely they will not be.

If you pay in cash then they can give you a 21% discount. Follow the logic. Even if you pay part cash, part CC, you will still get the discount on the cash part. I can’t say for sure if all Jewellers in Antwerp do this but it is widespread. 

Eoinsy, E3000 is a decent budget for an Antwerp ring, I’d be surprised if your girlfriend can’t find a good stone and band within this budget, especially if she chooses White gold over platinum.


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## Eoinsy

Thanks for all the help peoples!
Platinum is a must with her, so I reckon I might have to extend the budget just a little bit. 
Have time to cover it though so all good. 
Thanks again.


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## getoffthepot

*Re: Engagement rings and diamonds*

Checkout http://www.bluenile.com/

recommended to me by my bro in the US.


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## npgallag

Decided to go to Antwerp to get engagement ring because of all the good feedback on this post(also cheap flight on Ryanairs recent glich/deal).... Can anyone advise nice resturant/ place where a man could pop the question  in Antwerp..?? as havent ask the girlfriend yet and as far as she knows she is just been whisked away....


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## Pringle

There is a beautiful restaurant called LUX. Any taxi will take you there. Are looks dodgy but it's not at all. In actual fact it was Harold from Phillippe Harold's Jewellers shop that recommended the restaurant to us when we there a few weeks ago. We also had a fantastic engagement ring made by him. I would highlt recommend him. Our experiences of Antwerp were exactly as the first thread has put it! Good luck!


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## Delboy

went to antwerp last week based on the advice received here to get an engagement ring. Went to Phillippe Harold's shop and it had a sign up saying closed for the week!!! Gf was distraught but there was so many other shops around that she soon got over this. We found that the best advice and personal attention we got was from a shop called 'Hearts and Arrows' which is just around the corner from Orsini's which someone mentioned earlier. Had decided on the ring etc in Hearts and Arrows but were a few hundred short of the agreed price. On the way to an ATM the gf spotted a ring in Orsini's window and fell in love with it immediately. 5 minutes later she had her ring...felt sorry for the guy in Hearts and Arrows but hope this recommendation makes up for it, kind of!!!
The value and choice over there is 2nd to none. Every 2nd shop is a diamond store around the train station area.We went to Diamond land first to get a feel for the prices and the types of rings available and then on to the smaller shops.
And it's a nice town also. We went with Ryanair to Charleroi and then took the train from there to Antwerp...about a 2hours 20minutes journey.


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## Dub75

I went last week also with my GF. We went into Harold on Tuesday and spent 3 hrs with him. He's really into his diamonds!! We selected a ring and picked it up on Thursday. Everything that has been said about him here is true. He is a really nice guy.


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## mrgtbad

DJC said:


> Bought "our" ring in Antwerp at the beginning of August. Probably didn't 'save' money, as we spent the same amount as we budgeted on a better quality rock, but the same one over here is being quoted at 2,000+ higher than we paid. IMO it's well worth doing.
> 
> You may benefit from some observations: When you arrive (by train) you are in the diamond district, as evidences by the dozens of diamond shops; but we were warned not to buy in the ones around the station- they are typically smaller and cheaper looking.
> 
> Very few of the jewelers are affiliated with the Belgian Diamond sellers association; I can’t remember the name, so that was a bit off-putting. We bought in one that wasn’t a member but we had the certificate so reckoned it was OK.
> 
> If you go to some of the bigger dealers like DiamondLand you’ll see a huge range, probably more choice there than in all of Dublin put together. My advice is decide in somewhere like this what you want to get in terms of cut carat clarity etc. (and they have a huge selection of settings also) but don’t buy there, look around. When you go into a shop and can say show me a 1.2 carat, VVS1, blah blah, you will find they cut out a lot of the sales chatter and you'll get down to business much quicker.
> 
> Many of them seem to have permanent "sales" advertising up to 70% discount so there is huge scope for haggling. When you know exactly what kind of ring you want my advice is to find two or three shops where you trust them and negotiate a best price but insist that you have to leave to continue looking. And do leave. You will hear excuses that they have to return the loose diamonds to dealers (some places keep a limited stock and so ring a nearby dealer to have the diamonds you are looking delivered to the shop for your inspection) and that they cant guarantee you that it will be there when you come back, but I would say this is the only way to get their lowest price out of them.
> 
> Also they will offer fairly big discounts for part or whole payment in cash, if you don’t feel nervous about carrying 000's around with you, it’s well worth while, and I wish I had known that before I went.
> 
> Unlike here, most of them don't even think about charging you for the ring setting etc.(unless it's platinum).
> 
> One other thing to consider is the certification. The certified diamonds come in little sealed plastic boxes with certificates from HRD, DHC, IGL or some of the other diamond associations. I have seen some conflicting advice about which of them is best, some of the shops suggest that IGL has margin of error, i.e. they say your diamond is say VVS1, but that's with some margin of error +/-. So if you have it valued you might find it's slightly better or worse than you thought.
> Most of the dealers take the diamond out of the boxes to examine the diamonds and show their customers. I think that’s where trust comes into play. The average person can’t tell the difference between two diamonds whose value doffer by thousands. So when you are buying you have to make sure that you get the certificate, that was at least you have proof that you bought a certain standard of diamond and if you get it valued and it turns out to be something different then you'll have some comeback, through credit card or whatever. Some of them offer to have the diamond re sealed by the certifying body for a cost of something like 25 euro, that way you can buy your diamond with confidence and take it home and have it set by your Irish jeweler or whatever.
> 
> Its also worthwhile looking around for the wedding ring to match. Looked while we were there and even though we had no intention of buying the shop came down by 1000 from the RRP on the original ticked, to about 1/3 of the price. Haggling definitely pays off. Most of them will go through the charade of typing numbers into their calculators and trying to give the impression that they're figuring out how low they can go, IMO walking out is the best tactic, you can always come back if you can’t get a better price elsewhere.
> 
> You can spend as much time looking around in the various shops around the district. We got it all done in a day but you could spend days looking around if you wanted. The shops near the main shopping st (cant remember the name of it) seem to be the best in terms of presentation etc. but not the cheapest. Orsini's seems to be the equivalent of Weirs in Dublin. The smaller shops around Diamondland and the streets near the IGL and DHC HRD buildings seemed trustworthy, but the ones near the station did seem seedier.
> 
> Antwerp itself is nice enough, but apparently there are nicer places elsewhere in Belgium where diamonds are just as affordable but I think you'll get the biggest choice in Antwerp. Other shopping is fairly standard city centre fare, no cheaper than Dublin as far as I could see.
> 
> Don't go diamond shopping at the end July/ early Aug as this is when the dealers go on holidays. We were lucky in that some of them were opened, but a week later we would have had more choice.
> 
> For travel details on getting to Antwerp, see posts above.


 
how can you trust some one in antwerp?as some one already said there is a big problem with dodgy dealers there. 
how do you know the cert you are getting is the cert for this stone.?it could be from a different stone.if i am spending thousands i want come back.i dont fancy having any success in a action against a jewellers overseas.
 1ct G Si , but ths Si's position can alter diamonds look and cost.
I guess the important thing is that the wearer is in love with it.


----------



## mphturbo

Myself and my other half went to Antwerp to purchase an engagement ring after reading this thread. It was a great experience. Went to all of the shops listed in the Antwerp Diamond Jewellers Association. Also had a good look in Orsini's. Herself wanted a Marquis cut with side tapers. 

Ended up buying a custom made ring from Harold Philippe. [broken link removed]

Would highly recommend this option. Harold's attention to detail is excellent. He ensured that we fully understood what we were buying.

Value and quality is also excellent. Was stunned to see what 2K could buy in comparision to Ireland.

Antwerp is also a nice place to spend a few days. Very easy to get around as the public transport system is light years ahead of Ireland's. Also traveled over to Brugge. Well worth a visit.

Very easy to get to Antwerp.........see the posts above.


----------



## mikedarby

I am beginning to sound interested in the idea of following some of the above posters example. A big concern with me however is the certification process and whether or not it guarantees that a person is not buying 'blood diamonds'. Do the dealers have to tell you where the diamond came from or where it was cut. I believe that many diamonds are cut in Israel, a country that hasn't the best human rights record either. 
I'd be grateful for some advice.


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## Jareck

Hi Mikedarby,

Am going over to Antwerp with the future mrs to buy a ring on 21 May but I've been doing a lot of research beforehand.

Talked to Philipe Harold and Paul Class (Orsini Diamonds) and also looked into the whole Antwerp diamond thing.

There are only a few shops that are certified by the Antwerp Diamond Association to sell diamonds - these guys are absolutely guaranteeing proper certification and non conflict diamonds.

A large proportion of diamonds are cut in India - so chances are most are on slave/extreme poverty wage (although I can't confirm that at all, just an personal conclusion).

If you were to buy a diamond in Dublin - chances are it came from Antwerp anyway so same issue with cutting it in India applies.

While I have some reservations about the cutting stage in India re exploitation I can't confirm this at all, and to my shame, the want for a nice diamond for my partner is more important to me than my principals on an unconfirmed feeling.

Therefore we're going to Antwerp to spend my hard earned cash on a diamond and ring.

I'll report back in a few weeks with how we got on.


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## dieter1

I dont get this whole conflict free thing about Diamonds.  If you understood the industry, you'd know that 'Blood Diamonds' is a typical Hollywood movie.  Whilst there is some truth to the movie regarding Sierra Leone, civil war and Diamond smuggling, the civil war is over now for quite some time.  The answer to these problems is not by refusing to buy the diamonds, its just not that simple.

If you still feel guilty, donate 10% of your savings from buying the ring in Antwerp to a worthy charity and actually make a difference rather than worrying about your (capitalist) diamond is conflict free or not!


----------



## seren

My partner and I arrived back from Antwerp this week with a beautiful diamond ring!  We purchased it from Harold at Philipe Harold after reading earlier posts on this thread.  He went to great efforts to find the exact diamond we were looking for. We were very impressed with his level of service and the personal attention he gave.  Thanks to everybody on this thread who contributed information to buying engagement rings in Antwerp as it certainly saved us from being ripped off.


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## Jareck

Hi all,

Just back from the lovely Antwerp and it was great.

Firstly re the ring:
Phillipe Harold spent over 2hrs going through everything (this was after we'd been emailing him beforehand) so I'd thoroughly recommend him.

What I found most pleasing was that he never pushed us for a decision or to hurry up, just gave his expertise and gave his recommendation (only when asked mind you, which again was great!).

We met him on Tuesday at 2pm, picked up the ring on Wednesday at 5pm (again another 45 - 60 mins making sure we were happy etc). 

I had done a lot of homework before going and so had herself which we then shared with Phillipe.  This meant that he was able to have a suitable ring and a few diamonds for us ready and waiting.  It did mean that we felt slightly obliged to buy from him but we went in a few jeweller's before our appointment with him and he was the best.

As regards cost - we got a .90ct VS2, E diamond (decent size, nearly *************************, pure white) with a white gold ring for €4,700.  The fiance saw a 
.91ct SI1, F diamond (same size, slightly imperfect - so quite a few inclusions [more inclusions mean less sparkle], nearly pure white) with a white gold ring priced in Appleby's in Dublin for €8,295.

*So in effect the same ring cost me approx 45% less in Antwerp than Dublin!! That's massive!*


We've also left an old ring of the new fiance's there for him to do something with  - I had no problem leaving the ring with him to send back via registered post when it's been remodelled.


Secondly the whole Antwerp thing:
It's a great city, quite surprisingly actually as it's not on the tourist radar really.  Food was excellent (Braserie Appelman's and Dock's Cafe in particular), beer was ok (bit too much hops for my tastes) but the pubs/cafe's were great - especially Pelgrom (if you're going to Antwerp you have to find this pub it's something else!).  Also find a little cafe called Lantaren - they have a percolator from 1850's which is a terrific experience as, when you order it, they bring it out on to your table, make and serve you coffee from it!  Another cafe to go to is Del Rey (it's right beside Phillipe's shop), it's a chocolatier and cafe and the chocolates/pralines were fantastic.

Decent sights too - zoo, diamond museum, cathedral with Ruben's paintings but mainly it's the numerous cafe's and pubs that make Antwerp so nice.

Finally, where to stay:
There are a good number of hotels, avoid Hotel Florida (we were booked there but thankfully changed our mind before we arrived - we went in the first day in Antwerp and it looked very run down), Hotel de Keyserlei was very central and looked nice from the outside.  

But if you really want to make the trip extra special stay in B&B Boulevard Leopold - website: http://www.boulevard-leopold.be.  It's been recently renovated (November 2006).  It had all the modern necessities - expresso machine, tv & dvd player in the room, safe, minibar, cd/radio stereo & gas fire.  The building had loads of character, the interior was styled to reflect the age that the building was constructed (turn of 20th century).  It's not in the main diamond district but 10 min walk or less than 5 mins by tram.

This made our holiday to be honest - it was unbelievably special - the room we stayed in was just massive with a huge bed and a fantastic bath - very romantic!  Breakfast in the mornings was continental styled but had everything you would have wanted (cereal, bread, fresh fruit, egg's pretty much anyway you wanted, etc).  Price was €110 per night but we were able to get a weekday discount of 4 nights for the price of 3.  The quality of the room and breakfast we had meant it was fabulous value for money and we would have happily paid the full price, or more to be honest.

Don't bother with generic hotel rooms - go there and you won't regret it!

That's about it, PM me if you would like more information!


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## dawnsurprise

can you bargain on price with philippe harold when paying cash?
in dublin the price on display can always be negotiated with 10-30% discount available!


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## Mark_W

I have to agree with macg about www.diamant.ie, my cousin put me in contact with them and I can't speak highly enough of the fantastic service they gave me.
They get their diamonds from Antwerp direct and their goldsmith is based there too and it really showed in the price, I found a ring almost identical to the one I ended up buying (princess trilogy) in a shop here in Dublin and it was nearly twice the price, then the valuation was even more than that!!!!

They told me everything I needed to know to feel sure of what I was buying and that peace of mind made everything easier, style of ring, cut of the stone, colour shape four C's, everything was explained to me in a really good way and I felt comfortable knowing exactly what I was buying and why. Got my ring in two weeks and I can guarantee it contributed to the "yes" I got when I popped the question 

Seriously, I don't think I could have gotten a better deal anywhere.
 If you're in the market for diamonds, of any kind, check them out.


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## golfpaul

dawnsurprise said:


> can you bargain on price with philippe harold when paying cash?
> in dublin the price on display can always be negotiated with 10-30% discount available!


Went to Antwerp last week after doing my research here and on other sites. Decided to narrow it down to diamondland and phillipe harold (obviously stay away from the shops across from the central station). Bought ring from philippe harold as he just seemed to have a better understanding of the whole process. I mentioned cash payment after I bargained price down a bit and yes this does matter, another 21% saving! There is a small issue if you go down this route; you will not be given the certificate for the diamond there and then but it will be posted to your home address. Well worth the trip.


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## dawnsurprise

hi golfpaul
pity you didnt go before me.... i was there a few weeks ago.... and bougth... he said that the price he had quoted me was a cash price as if i paid by credit card, i would have to pay the commission.... still we got a good deal.... he gave sent me a valuation in the post Eu1500 more than i paid him for the ring... and i know if i were to buy it here, it would definately cost us a lot more... still have not got round to valuing it... or insuring it.... tut tut.... - but yes you are right, his service is excellent... and i would go back to him for other jewellery...


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## LFC Murphy

Hi there,

Just want to post my experience. Just want to say thanks to all who have posted here with their experiences as I really helped me.

I made a decision to travel to Antwerp 3 weeks ago, at which stage I contacted Philippe Harold, who was great help, even over mail. He sent ideas, prices, pictures etc and had great correspondence from the man. So on that I booked flights and accommodation. It should be noted at this time that I was travelling *alone*.

I arrived in Antwerp on Tuesday morning at 11.44am (the trains run on time, which no exception). I had arranged a meeting with Philippe Harold, for 12.30pm, However, I found the shop CLOSED due to a funeral. Sure what can ya say. I sucked in my frustration and went to the hotel to check in and regroup. 

I then planned to visit the other members of the ADJA, as I agree with the other posters, that the shops around Central Station don’t look the best. I first went to Diamondland, which I felt was more for busloads of tourists (a bus load of tourists, Americans, pulled up just after I entered). To me they were just like Irish jewellers, as in you walked up to a counter and they showed their ware there and then. So wasn’t overly impressed.

I next went to J. Katz, and well I was blown away. The man is a pure gentleman, and as with the other posters experience with Philippe Harold, he sat me down for nearly an hour just for a chat. Now I had done a lot of homework regarding the 4 C’s etc, but he just had a way about him. He took out good and bad diamonds and taught me how to see the difference etc. 


Anyway had a look around, but came back to Mr Katz. He spent another hour going thru different diamonds, until we found the ONE. We agreed on a price, and went away for 30 mins to think about it. But I came back. 

He told me he would have the ring ready by 1pm the next day, Wednesday, and it was ready by 12pm. Anyway when I brought the balance he took the money and gave me €200 back. He said that he misquoted, wheather tactic or honest mistake, there was a great feeling with my ring in one pocket, and an extra €200 in the other. 

All in all, I got a great deal; he also gave me a headed valuation along with the diamond certificate, which I will be able to compare with in Ireland. However I will say this, traveling on your own this is a tough thing to do. You need to know exactly what she wants. I was 90% sure, but that 10% nearly killed me.

Anyway next step is to pop the question !


----------



## golfpaul

golfpaul said:


> Went to Antwerp last week after doing my research here and on other sites. Decided to narrow it down to diamondland and phillipe harold (obviously stay away from the shops across from the central station). Bought ring from philippe harold as he just seemed to have a better understanding of the whole process. I mentioned cash payment after I bargained price down a bit and yes this does matter, another 21% saving! There is a small issue if you go down this route; you will not be given the certificate for the diamond there and then but it will be posted to your home address. Well worth the trip.


I forgot to mention, while I was in Diamondland I picked out a diamond and said I would think about it. The next day after I went to Philippe Harold I got a call from Diamondland to see was I still interested. When I said I was also looking in PH's they knocked another 10% off the price we had agreed previously!
Also while walking past the jewellers across from the central station
I stopped to view the jewellery in the window. I was there 5 seconds when a hand appeared in the window with a hand written sign which said "70% off just for you!" which I found very amusing. I would stick with the 5 members of the ADJA (Antwerp Diamond Jewellers Association [broken link removed]) for peace of mind. And it's good to see they are competitive with each other.


----------



## lilmonkey

Just wondering ...can you buy vintage/antique engagement rings in Antwerp or is everything new?  thanks!


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## dawnsurprise

we saw one antique shop...  had nice stuff in it...i felt they tried to rip us off when we asked for a price on something so we did not buy....  however we were advised subsequently that day that were crooks! - so i guess we were lucky... that was the only antique shop i saw there... all else was new, or made to order


----------



## Martinicus

Thanks for all of the good tips - I have emailed Orsinis, Phillipe and diamant.ie to see what kind of ideas and prices they can offer - will also send mails to the other members listed on the Adja website.

What I had previously been planning to do was to buy a diamond from bluenile (either www.bluenile.com or www.bluenile.co.uk). They have a great interface which enables you to quickly find out what kind of prices you can expect to pay for a diamond of the given 4Cs. The only problem is that if you buy from the UK you pay 17.5% VAT and if you buy from Ireland you pay 21% VAT. Both of these can be avoided if you can get it delivered to someone you know in the states. Apart from that, the prices are pretty much identical between the .com and co.uk sites. Once I had a diamond from them, I was going to try and find a good custom jewelry maker in Ireland to set it in platinum for me.

This is still going to be plan A until the Antwerp connection comes through! Just thought I'd mention it as an option and as a very good way to get transparent information about diamond prices. By comparison, I got quoted €5900 for a .7 E SI1 diamond from Applebys and from Bluenile it cost €2800 including a platinum setting, VAT and delivery. It put me off the idea of using a high street retailer somewhat...although it was hard with herself making moon eyes at me over the ring...


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## 1308dorina

Never heard of the Antwerp option before.....sounds very tempting......and i'm the woman....i'm sure the boyfriend will be even more impressed.......i don't agree with overspending on jewellery.....i think 2k max is plenty to be spending....is this a daft idea?.....or is it a realistic figure if we went for the Antwerp option?


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## dawnsurprise

you will get rings to suit any budget in antwerp.... 2k will go further there than in ireland.....


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## Excited

Hi

My Partner and I are travelling to Antwerp in 2 weeks to buy my engagement ring, We will arr on a Wed morning around 0930 in Brussels then will have to travel to Antwerp, Can anyone suggest what the best mode of transport would be for us , Taxi / Train or bus, Antwerp Central Station is approx 5 mins walk from our Hotel and the metro station De Keyzerlei is only 2 mins walk away ! We leave again from Brussels on the Fri evening at 9 PM ! 

From looking on this thread and reading peoples reviews, we are edging towards Phillipe Harold, does he have rings I can try on and then he will size for me or does he just make the ring on order ?

Will 2 days be enough time for us to be able to come home with the ring ?

If anyone can recommend any other jewellers or tips we would greatly appreciate them.


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## decembersal

Hi Excited,

Harold Phillippe designed my engagement ring in 1 day. Needless to say it's fabulous! 

There are loads of unlegit jewellers in the Antwerp Diamond area, so I emailed the shops that are members of the Antwerp Diamond Jewellers Association (www.adja.be) in advance for information. They responded back with quotes and based on this information I arranged two appointments - one at www.diamondland.be and one at Harold Philippe [jeweller@skynet.be]. 

We arrived on the train from Brussels to Antwerp - 12e for 2 single tickets on Monday - the journey is an hour. The two jewellers had the diamonds in envelopes waiting for me, based on my specifications, ready for scrutiny!! HP was by far the best of the two. He shows you the diamonds - there are no rings - just diamonds  Once you choose your diamond(s) he pulls out a drawer of white, yellow gold and platinum bands from which to choose from. The yellow and white gold bands are free. It's such a nice decision to have to make. HP also posts you a copy of the certificate - this can take a couple of weeks. 

If you get into Harold Philippe's shop, decide on your diamond and band & put in the order - all before lunch they might have your ring ready for collection that evening. I wud be 99.9% sure they'd have it for you, the turnaround time is excellent.

I have subsquently had my ring valued at the Powerscourt Centre, Dublin for insurance purposes and I was delighted to learn of it's Irish value. 

Also cash talks big time in Antwerp. So bring cash (NB). And don't be afraid to haggle. You'd be surprised at the savings. 

Best of luck - PM me if you want more information.


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## LFC Murphy

I have to agree with everyone who recommended Antwerp. I went alone and along with a few hiccups (which have become great stories to tell) it was a great experience. I can honestly say now that I understand why the ring is important. The visits to KATZ Jewellers made it a great experience. 

Anyway best of luck, and oh one last thing.

She said yes


----------



## new_user2007

Dubai is same as Antwerp; paid €4000 in Dubai (tax free) and got it value here for €9000.  The certificate is registered to Antwerp so obviously its the place to go.  I got a free holiday going to Dubai though with the savings I made.


----------



## Excited

Hi decembersal, Thank you for your tip. I email Phillipe Harold and he has quoted me for the diamond and then mentioned the ring will be EUR 650 ? Can I ask you was it long ago that you made your purchase since you mentioned that the band is free of charge ?

This probably sounds like a strange question but how can I be sure he is going to design what  I have in mind ? Does he give a draft of what he's going to make so Im sure we are both on the same wave length ?

Any other tips you can give us will be much appreciated !! 

Thanks


----------



## dieter1

I recently purchased through Phillipe and was charged 600 for the band.  It was a peculiar hand made design though.


----------



## Excited

Hi Dieter1

Thank you for the info ! 

Can I ask you were you happy with your purchase ?

Im just starting to stress that I wont explain what i want in enough details and  he wont make the same thing I have in my mind then i'll be disappointed ! 

Height is very important to me and also I want the ring to fill my hand ! dont want it looking miserable !! 

Do you think you got better value than here going to Antwerp ?


----------



## Excited

Decembersal,

Can I ask you did you get the train from Brussels airport or Brussels City ?

Do you happen to remember what number train it was ?


----------



## golfpaul

Excited said:


> Decembersal,
> 
> Can I ask you did you get the train from Brussels airport or Brussels City ?
> 
> Do you happen to remember what number train it was ?


Excited,
Just get the bus (Antwerp Express). It leaves every hour from the airport (level 0), journey time of around 40mins and costs €8. It will drop you practically outside central station.


----------



## dawnsurprise

i would second golfballs suggestion... the bus is definately the easiest way to get to antwerp.. .takes about 40 mins and is direct, you will have to change train... bus station around the corner from the hotel.. we were there a few months ago to buy a ring.

i wanted a solitaire, and had done research on other site where you can build a ring... its also better if you do your research in jewellers here, so you know what suits your hand.... 

i bought from harold Philippe Harold (round corner from hotel)
i wanted a solitaire, (again like yourself, nothing too small... but not too big either, as that would look vulgar!!) with a fairly high mount, set in gold, with 6 claws, i asked to see different samples he had and he emailed picture to me... i got my band free, however i spent 7600 on the diamond... so maybe it depends on the value of the diamond???? or if you want a specially made ring... 
  i think i got excellent value, as i had priced rings here before i went... i havent got it valued yet, although he sent me a valuation for 9500, so its definately worth more here... PH also emailed me images of diamonds... i choese a 1.19c, G, VS1, ideal cut round brilliant diamond... and does she sparkle... 
would definately recommend Phillip Harold and 2 days is plenty

best of luck!


----------



## KalEl

dawnsurprise said:


> i would second golfballs suggestion... the bus is definately the easiest way to get to antwerp.. .takes about 40 mins and is direct, you will have to change train... bus station around the corner from the hotel.. we were there a few months ago to buy a ring.
> 
> i wanted a solitaire, and had done research on other site where you can build a ring... its also better if you do your research in jewellers here, so you know what suits your hand....
> 
> i bought from harold Philippe Harold (round corner from hotel)
> i wanted a solitaire, (again like yourself, nothing too small... but not too big either, as that would look vulgar!!) with a fairly high mount, set in gold, with 6 claws, i asked to see different samples he had and he emailed picture to me... i got my band free, however i spent 7600 on the diamond... so maybe it depends on the value of the diamond???? or if you want a specially made ring...
> i think i got excellent value, as i had priced rings here before i went... i havent got it valued yet, although he sent me a valuation for 9500, so its definately worth more here... PH also emailed me images of diamonds... i choese a 1.19c, G, VS1, ideal cut round brilliant diamond... and does she sparkle...
> would definately recommend Phillip Harold and 2 days is plenty
> 
> best of luck!


 
What exactly does the G VS1 bit mean?
I presume the same type of ring would cost you a lot more here?
Apologies for my ignorance!


----------



## dawnsurprise

G = Colour
VS1 = clairity grade

you should read up on the 4 C's of diamonds, Carat Colour, Clarity, Cut 
then you know what kind of value you are getting for your money.
i have to be honest i knew nothing about this, until i was told about it, so i researched it before i went, so that i was up to speed and the more i learnt, the more i wanted a better quality diamond... and value for money... 
i visited the following link and to give me ideas and also, there is an irish price guide for rings bought in dublin, so you know the value you are getting.... www.diamond-ireland.com...


----------



## KalEl

dawnsurprise said:


> G = Colour
> VS1 = clairity grade
> 
> you should read up on the 4 C's of diamonds, Carat Colour, Clarity, Cut
> then you know what kind of value you are getting for your money.
> i have to be honest i knew nothing about this, until i was told about it, so i researched it before i went, so that i was up to speed and the more i learnt, the more i wanted a better quality diamond... and value for money...
> i visited the following link and to give me ideas and also, there is an irish price guide for rings bought in dublin, so you know the value you are getting.... www.diamond-ireland.com...


 
Great link...thanks!
I'm learning about this as I go...did you contact www.diamant.ie at all? Some of their rings look lovely but I don't want to have to go in for a sit down session and feel beholden to them...would prefer to just price them.


----------



## dawnsurprise

i thought it was a good link too... was going to buy there origianlly but then heard about antwerp

i got 2 quotes from them... both cheaper than you buy in ireland... however, the site has changed in the last month or two... so not sure if they will send you a quote now or now... i spoke to a diamond expert on the phone.... had made an appointment to visit, but cancelled, as i had changed my mind and was heading to antwerp...  
i cant personally recommend how good they are... maybe you could ask the question here??? - but their website was very beneficial to me...

good luck with your ring hunt!


----------



## KalEl

dawnsurprise said:


> i thought it was a good link too... was going to buy there origianlly but then heard about antwerp
> 
> i got 2 quotes from them... both cheaper than you buy in ireland... however, the site has changed in the last month or two... so not sure if they will send you a quote now or now... i spoke to a diamond expert on the phone.... had made an appointment to visit, but cancelled, as i had changed my mind and was heading to antwerp...
> i cant personally recommend how good they are... maybe you could ask the question here??? - but their website was very beneficial to me...
> 
> good luck with your ring hunt!


 
Thanks!
One question...that chart illustrating the prices of engagement rings in Ireland would suggest your one is about 8 grand. Harold did it for €7600. Fair enough that's a saving but I thought it'd be more for the effort or am I missing something?
Thanks for the advice


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## KalEl

Forget that question...evidently I'm an idiot who can't read charts and thinks 1.00 = 1.19.
Cheers


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## dawnsurprise

no... savings are alot more... i did my research in dublin..
diamond.ie list are showing a 1c at 8k and a 1.5c at 16k - mine was 1.19
cut is very important... my cut was excellent, but also "ideal cut" so you see the hearts and diamods effect..  certification is important...every point increase in size, adds a lot more value to your ring.. there is a good size diference between a 1c and a 1.19c ring... 
i was quoted 8k for a 1c diamond, G  vs2 in one shop in dublin
12k for a 1c vs2 g in another
another shop was 6k for a 1.16c J, SI1
diamond.ie quoted as follows
Round 1.17c F VS2  - 9600eu (retail value 13k)
Round 0.77 F SI1 6905eu (retail value 10k)
Round 1.17 I VS2 6287eu (retail 8600)

I definately got good value...

shop around for yourself in dublin
ask to view certified rings only, bring the diamond.ie printout with you in your bag, so that you can reference it for yourself....

once you find the carat size that suits, and the cut etc.... then ask philippe harold to quote you for the ring you found here that suits you... and see the savings for yourself....

above worked for me.... just a suggestion...


----------



## KalEl

Thanks a million Dawn...I've already spoken to Harold and reckon he's the way to go. You did get a really good deal...hopefully I will too.

Cheers


----------



## decembersal

Hi Excited,

Harold does little drawings on his jotter of the design you have created and there are loads of bands to choose from. I definitely remember the bands in yellow and white gold were free but maybe that was because 'we' were spending a good bit. In the end I chose platinum so I won't have to get the ring dipped each year, which you would with the white gold - the platinum did cost more. 

I know it's easy to think that it's all about saving money by going to Antwerp but what I'd say it's more that your budget goes further in Antwerp, as you get a much higher quality and bigger diamond(s) for your budget.

The colour, I got, was E, the clarity was VS2. I would definitely go for better colour over clarity - you can't see the tiny flaws with the naked eye. If the colour is good it means it's more sparkly. The cut is important too as Dawnsurprise said below - I went with 'round' to maximise the sparkle effect! 

Don't be afraid to haggle by asking for a cash price - if you are lucky he might knock an extra 100e off this. 

If you don't have time to collect the ring, Harold can fed-ex it to you, but normally he'll have the ring ready for collection the next day. 

One last tip....read all you can about the 4 C's -it's not difficult to understand and it puts u in a much better position when you are discussing the merits of size v's quality v's colour. 

Harold is excellent at explaining the pro's and con's of each diamond too. His English is perfect - there were no language barriers. 

Re. Logistics

We stayed at the Astrid Park Plaza hotel in the Diamond District for 2 nights Monday to Wednesday - 200e exc breakfast. The train station is across the road so it is a great location. The hotel is a nice modern, no personality 4 star, which was fine for us. Harold's shop is a 10 min stroll from this hotel.


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## 808303

Hi, I've been considering proposing to my burd for some time now but was a bit concerned about price. After reading this thread I'm considering surprising her with a trip to Antwerp. My budget is (max) 1000 euro, excluding th trip itself (we're planning a weekend away anyway). I've no clue about these things, so I'm wondering will I be able to get anything passable for that sort of budget. If not, I can save up for another few months but I suspect she's getting an itchy finger. I know she usually prefers smaller diamonds anyway, but is a thousand still too low? Thanks in advance.

PS If I do decide to go, I promise to look up the 4Cs.


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## KalEl

808303 said:


> Hi, I've been considering proposing to my burd for some time now but was a bit concerned about price. After reading this thread I'm considering surprising her with a trip to Antwerp. My budget is (max) 1000 euro, excluding th trip itself (we're planning a weekend away anyway). I've no clue about these things, so I'm wondering will I be able to get anything passable for that sort of budget. If not, I can save up for another few months but I suspect she's getting an itchy finger. I know she usually prefers smaller diamonds anyway, but is a thousand still too low? Thanks in advance.
> 
> PS If I do decide to go, I promise to look up the 4Cs.


 
Have a look at this website and you can get quotes for different sizes and clarities...
[broken link removed]

Obviously your travel expenses are going to be higher relative to the price of the ring so the savings may not make the trip worthwhile.
You'll have to figure that one out yourself but from the research I've done I think it's 20% cheaper in Antwerp. 20% of €1000 is €200. It will cost you more than €200 to get to and stay in Antwerp so purely on the maths it is not worthwhile. However, there's more to getting hitched than maths!
Best of luck


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## Excited

Hi Everyone

Just want to say a HUGE thank you to you all for all your tips and advice,

We spent all day last mon in various jewellers and in the end I have decided on solitaire, princess cut, white gold with diamond shoulders.

Have to say after going round the jewellers we now understand the " 4 C's" a whole lot better than from reading them on the web.

Philipe Harold has been so so helpful.

I emailed him a picture of the ring I liked from the jewellers website ! 

And he has come back to me with a quote, we are both very happy with !!

F color, Vs1 and 1.15 carat for EUR 4900

In the jewllers in dublin, the ring was only H in color, .90 carat and Vs1 and was costing EUR 6350.

We were never going to antwerp to save money just to get more value for money !
and I think we are definitely going to get it ! 

Something to bear in mind for anyone planning a trip to Antwerp, Philip harold is closed as are all the main jeweller for their annual holidays from last Mon, ( aug 13th till Mon aug 27th ) so if thinking of travelling in aug mite be worth while checking they will be open !

It looks as though we may need to return early from antwerp on the fri morning for an appointment, i can get flights from Charleroi with ryanair at 0930 in the morning, does anyone know will we be able to get a bus / train from antwerp to have us in Charleroi airport for 0730 AM and also how long the journey takes ?


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## decembersal

Hi Excited,

I think we're near enough to a congratulations to you and your other half! 

According to the timetable the first train from Antwerp Central Station is at 5.51am brings you to Charleoi Sud Train Station in an hour and half. Then you can jump the airport bus from the airport bus stop outside the train station and you'll be at the airport in another 15mins. 

(We were on the next train for the flight at 9.30am and it was seriously plain sailing - no sweat other than getting up early. We bought our tickets at the train station the day before and walked on to the train the next morning. Hopefully you won't be cutting it too fine.)

Here's the link

[broken link removed]

Best of luck!!


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## Excited

Hi Decembersal

Thanks a mill for all the advice and also the congrats ! we are so excited now !! 

Harold has said he will have the ring for thurs evening !! Thank god.

I have tried looking online to look at train timetables but it's very complicated !! I cannot figure it out for the life of me !! 

When you mentioned you hoped i wasnt cutting it too fine ! Was that in reference to the ring being ready or making the 0930 flight ??

Im starting to get seriously stressed now !!


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## decembersal

Hi Excited,
Sorry didn't mean to scare you- I just thought you might have been cutting it fine. 

I checked the timetable again, there seems to be an earlier train from Anterp Central Statin at 5.16am which arrives in Charleroi Sud at 06.52am. 
That gives you plenty of time to get the airport bus for the 15min journry to Charleroi airport. 
Antwerpen-Centraal *
Charleroi-Sud 24/08/07
dep
arr05:16
06:52 1:43 0[broken link removed][broken link removed] 

The best thing to do is to go Central Station on Thursday and ask at the information desk what time the earliest train to Charleroi Sud departs at and buy your tickets then.

Best of luck!! Hope the ring is everything you want it to be 

You'll be rolling over to weddingsonline next.*


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## Excited

Decembersal

Thanks for looking up those times for me, really appreciate it 

This time next week we will officially be engaged with ring ! ( please god !! )

We are heading over this weds and just cant wait.

Have you set your wedding date yet ?

We have booked rome for next aug so any threads u know of with info on that will be very useful too ! 

Take Care
Eacited


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## mrgtbad

hi, i checked out harolds prices and found him only ok compared too the high street jewellers.he quoted a 1.01 H vs1 for 5200 euro.his cert is a hrd which is not recommended. appparently they are not worth the paper they are written on. i was not going to go and spend all that money ona important diamond from some shop overseas with no come back.ended up buying in dublin at a better price€4800 and wife very happy.plus she gets to have it cleaned locally free every year and discuss her next project,oh dear.but saves me paying for flights and hotel etc


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## Mouldy

Quote: his cert is a hrd which is not recommended. apparently they are not worth the paper they are written on.


What is your source for this exactly? When I googled HRD certs I got a comprehensive description of a very highly regarded certification standard.
For example http://www.diamondmanufacturer.com/tutorial/certificate.htm

As for the pricing, when I got herself’s ring valued for insurance purposes, it was values at  nearly 3 times the purchase price of the ring from Harold.


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## Guest111

mrgtbad said:


> hi, i checked out harolds prices and found him only ok compared too the high street jewellers.he quoted a 1.01 H vs1 for 5200 euro.his cert is a hrd which is not recommended. appparently they are not worth the paper they are written on. i was not going to go and spend all that money ona important diamond from some shop overseas with no come back.ended up buying in dublin at a better price€4800 and wife very happy.plus she gets to have it cleaned locally free every year and discuss her next project,oh dear.but saves me paying for flights and hotel etc


 
The information in this post would seem to contradict the multiple independent sources within the thread and the statement about HRD not factual.

Put simply, if you buy a ring in Ireland this is the scenario...a wholesaler buys it or its constituents in Antwerp for €3,000. He sells it into the jeweller for €6,000 who then sells it on the shopfloor for €12,000. Some of the jewellers who cut out the middleman will work on a straight double up so the ring they buy in for €3,000 will be sold on for €6,000 but there is clearly value to be had outside Ireland (as with most things)


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## mrgtbad

sorry to rain on the parade. but HRD certs are not great at all..GIA are excellent.source was several dublin2 jewellery shops.and much research.         for me to have travelled overseas to buy a diamond, i woud have to buy flights and accomodation for a night.this is a cost.then i would feel under pressure to buy a diamond, and i dont want to be rushed. and business being business i know i will be shown the poor quaility H SI.  Two H si rings can be very different. one can have the Si at the edge and the other in the centre of a stone.the problem is your trusting some guy in another country who you have never met.Then if there is a problem with the ring/stone, you are stuck. more flights over to try solve problem , and i'd bet my life that the guy could be difficult.so no come back.  but in dublin i get on a bus and walk in to the shop and get dealt with buy people who are locals.    also a diamond ring needs to be professionally cleaned say once a year.most of the jewellers offer that service free of charge .but if i bought in belgium i'd have to fly over and incurr more costs.  so i dont see this clear value.    i see €400 for his and her flights, €200 for a nights hotel. handing a man in a different country a€5200 ,feeling slightly rushed, with real problems if there is a problem. getting sold the runt of the diamond litter (and never really knowing it-there are scandals about companys forging certs too) . no come back. no after sales service. as for your valuation, i dont know who did it.but the ring harold offered, i priced  identical for 5900 in a city centre shop. thats not 3 times higher.no where sold a 1ct h si for 15000!!  any how i dont want to be a spoil sport.its just i felt for us the big rip off is to go overseas.


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## Guest111

With all due respect, your "sources" are the Dublin 2 jewellery shops which people are travelling overseas to avoid. They are hardly a source of impartial advice. I can only relay my own experience. I am saving 20% by buying the ring in Antwerp. I have also been told that by paying cash I will save more. This is after extensive research and is based on the same rings with the same specs.


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## mrgtbad

hi Andy.
your not saving.with respect...
if you buy a 6000 ring in dublin, your saying a 20% saving means  it costs 5000.so you save a 1000euro.but you have to flight 400euro hotel 200euro.and you loose out on free yearly cleaning, and the diamonds loose and something wrong- another flight over cost and hotel!
but read what i wrote.you have no come back.as i mentioned two  H si diamond rings can be completly different.what makes you think that what some one in antwerp says is more creditable.this is like the irish travelling to budapest to but property.they get sold at a special irish price.you travelling to antwerp will be sold the DUD diamond. and when you go and complain andy, or when you try take legal action your solicitor will tell you not to bother. 
plus you have NO after sales service.
after the house , and car, the next big purchase is diamond jewellery.and you have know idea what your staring at.a very small sparkly thing.
this, i would have thought,is when you would need advise from someone who you can trust.someone who if they sold you a dud you could drive into town and make a scene in there shop and get you solicitor on there case.

and i wouldnt be a fool to give a large ball of money to a overseas shopkeeper.


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## Guest111

Hi there...I would disagree and believe that I am saving. Antwerp is the diamond capital of Europe it's not like you're heading to some remote outpost. The jewellers discussed within this thread are part of a "guild" for want a better word and are reliable given the glowing tributes you read.
I have some friends in the business and my mum has good knowledge about jewellery too. Plus I've done a fair bit of research myself. When you analyse it we are talking about a commodity. It isn't like a car, there isn't "depreciation". If you go into one of the better known high end jewellers and pay €10,000 for a diamond ring the real value of the commodity is far less. A second hand ring, or one purchased in Antwerp or South Africa will still cost more than the value of the diamond and the gold but the difference will be nowhere near as large. This is Ireland after all...because of "high costs" - insurance, wages etc everything costs a fortune. Something like cleaning is not relevant, that is not a big deal.
As for the morals of the jeweller, in my dealings with Phillippe Harold I said I wanted the diamond set in four "prongs"...his advice was that this was unreliable and that 6 was the way to go. I'm impressed by that.
The salient point is that for the same ring, same diamond, same spec, same cert, including flights, hotel etc I will save thousands.


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## Mouldy

Mrtgbad, can you name the actual source of the info that HRD certs are no good despite every site on diamonds I have checked saying they are well respected. If D2 shops told you this, please name the shop in question and point me to a few sites that go against the overwhelming positive feedback. You must have spotted something very convincing that everyone else has missed, giving the massive amount of thumbs up the HRD certs get online.

My valuation was done here in Dublin (Mods, can I name the shop?) and they just took the ring and the cert, then did their job. For all they knew I had just come from a Grafton street jeweller.

The Antwerp trip isn't for everyone, but from my personal experience it was great fun. Better half got a beautiful ring and we made a weekend out of it. We definitely got value for the whole experience but trying to calculate the saving you make in Antwerp would be different for each person as its based on what you could spend as well as what you would spend, on the ring. And paying in cash gets you a big discount right off the bat.


You seem to be quite sure that Philippe Harold will not afford any comeback in case of a problem, not to mention selling DUD diamonds (I take it you have evidence to support this as well) I'll pop him a mail with a link to this and see what he says. Maybe he'll remember you


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## csirl

I have relatives in the jewellery business. Say that the price mark-up in most jewellers in Ireland in at least 100% and sometimes 200% of wholesale/import cost. The major multiples are the biggest culprits.


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## mrgtbad

hi andy i agree with a lot of what u say.but its riskey buying second hand ring from say auction.you can not grade a diamong in a mount. or the cert may not be for that very stone. or a chip can be hidden under a claw etc so i wouldnt recommend it.but i dont go to antwerp on hoiliday so i do have to build it in to cost and in any case , if you shop around you can get similar prices here.but they have large costs there too in antwerp.  ie rents rates insurance, security, safes etc etc harolds advise about 4 claws is  not impressive.most large and important diamonds in ireland and europe are set in 4 claws.perfectly safe.he perhaps just had a lot of 6 claw mounts to off load.


hi mouldy.
as i said i had never heard of harold.but when i emailed him he quoted over 5k for a 1ct hsi.you can get in dublin a 1 ct hsi for over 5.in a very high class jwellers maybe you pay more.but no one and i stress this no one sells a 1ct hsi for 15000.so  he does not sell jewellery for one third cheaper.
hrd certs in the trade are not as respected as gia.this comes from trade sources and also diamond suppliers.you can have a diamond sent to 2 different companies and each will give a different colour grade.this is fact.some companies are ridget, others are not.it is only a opinion of what they think it is.often diamonds are sent to another company to see if they can get a different grade. i have no idea how harold would treat you if you had a problem. but youd have to take time off, fly over and hope he was in. i have dealt with respectable companies in different lines of business overseas and i have found them to be difficult.they dont answer phones etc with a dublin company you walk in and they sort you out cause you can sue or ruin there reputation. is all this stuff not abvious? but mouldy if your happy with your diamond thats great.you have done well


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## garyf

hi
all the previous comments have been extremely helpful for ring purchasers like myself! iv had a look around dublin earlier, not sure whether these are competitive prices i thought some of the prices weren't too bad but perhaps some of you reading this who have been to Antwerp might give me an idea.

F colour, VS1, 1ct,round 3 stone cluster, platinum band, €4700
F colour, VVS2 .9ct,round 3 stone cluster, platinum band reduced from €5960 to €4470.
E colour, VVS2, .76ct solitare round, platinum band €5k

all certified HRD/IGI/GIA

buying the ring myself but have a fair idea what to get,I have yet to try diamant.ie, visiting them tomorrow but they said all their stuff is made to order from Antwerp so mightnt have much on display

thanks for any feedback!!


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## mrgtbad

hi mouldy.what ring did you buy? what weight and colour,clairty is it.i'd be curious what the name of the shop is where you got valuation?


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## Mouldy

Mrtgbad

You are trolling.

Quote #90) "I checked out Harold's prices and found him only ok compared too the high street jewellers...his cert is a hrd which is not recommended. apparently they are not worth the paper they are written on."

I've asked you twice to provide some proof for this ludicrous claim. You have not.

Quote #93) "but HRD certs are not great at all..GIA are excellent.source was several dublin2 jewellery shops.and much research."

What shops, where's the evidence your research provided?

Quote(#95) "you have no come back... you travelling to antwerp will be sold the DUD diamond ...plus you have NO after sales service....and I wouldnt be a fool to give a large ball of money to a overseas shopkeeper."

All nonsense. What planet are you living on? Do you have any experience or proof of this? No, you don't. Because you've never even set foot in Antwerp and you entire experience of the diamond market there seems to be one quote from one dealer.
If HRD certs are not worth the paper they are written on, as you claim, then the information would be plastered all over the internet. But I've found exactly the opposite and asked you twice for your info, which you have declined to give.
Anyone reading this thread should ignore all of your posts.

I've said all I'm going to say on this thread. The Mods should delete all of our posts from #90 on, or just lock it, as its serving no purpose anymore.
Of course if you want to prove me wrong, just post 5 reputable sites that confirm your opinion on HRD certs.

M


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## Guest111

Good post...Mrgtbad is talking nonsense, for either naive or sinister reasons. This is a valuable thread so locking it would be a bad idea.


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## truthseeker

sorry to be hijacking the thread with an unrelated question but what does 'trolling' mean?


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## randombloke

I would almost bet my life savings that mrgtbad is either a jeweller or someone with a vested interest, honestly, there is a thing called subtlety....
Going overseas is a rip off......hmmmm, let me see, bought a ring there last year for 8k and when I got it home had it independently valued at 20k.
Mrgtbad, just stop misleading people, please.
The big rip off is shops in dublin, who have at least a 1-200% markup on their prices, but hey, someone will clean it for you once a year, woohoo.

Randombloke


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## mrgtbad

girls girls, calm down.
first muldy,ive heard it from several people in the trade.its what they said not me.they are the experts.i respect privacy so i wont give there names.youll just have to get over that.so what you should do is enquire not from online sourses, but from real people who work in the trade..you obviously have not read what i said.different companys have different ways of certing..reading you post you seem very upset about HRD certs.you must have one.fact is igi certs and gia certs are excellent.
what i was told about HRD would upset you.but i was told this by people in the trade.you go do your own footwork and youll find out. 
who is Mods?why should he stop free speech.ive just drawn your attention to some other things,ie travelling is not cheap and the pressure to buy in a day or two.2 hcolour si diamonds are NOT the same.and you treaten to close the link ?people can read and make up there own minds. so what ring did you buy?  come on muldy.what is the weight and colour,clairty .i'd be curious what the name of the shop is where you got valuation?why wont you answer.answer and next week ill drop in to town and visit a couple of jewellers.then you might prove me wrong and i will be embarrassed. 

you too randombloke.what am i misleading you about.i quoted from antwerp 5200 and identical ring in dublin available for a few hundred more.i dont see that as a big rip off.what colourclarity weight and metal did you buy for 8000?

valuations are for insurance purposes and are inflated.dont shoot me,, its just something i heard. has no one else heard this??


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## Guest111

Trolling is making outrageous statements just to stir up controversy...moderators (mods) are individuals who police a site like this, looking for anomolies such as people with vested interests making outlandish claims.

Mrgtbad, your posts make no sense at all and it's obvious you're either in the jewellery game or close to people who are. The opinions/"facts" you've been promoting are without foundation. I have recently purchased an engagement ring abroad for what I consider to be a substantial sum of money. A lot of time, effort and research went into my decision so at this stage I know my stuff. There is nothing wrong with HRD certificates...quite the opposite in fact. Some of the rings I looked at in Applebys for example had HRD certificates. I don't think anyone would accuse them of being "dodgy". As for your assertion about buying in 1 or two days this is not an issue. I liased with the jeweller over quite a long period of time and got exactly what I wanted.
The fact is that when it comes to jewellery, like most things, Ireland is off the wall when it comes to prices. 100% mark ups are the norm in this business. I did a fair bit of leg work myself on this topic and the saving are huge which convinces me your story about the €5200 ring and the price differential is either inaccurate or untrue.
This is a valuable thread, one I've overheard being discussed in Dublin believe it or not


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## Excited

Hi all

Just a quick post to let you know my fiance and i have had first hand experience of buying a ring from Harold in Antwerp, He is A1, his expertise is just amazing, Prior to us travelling , we shopped around the jewellers in Dublin to get an idea of what style I wanted and also the cost of rings here, we went to antwerp to get better value for money as opposed to save money ! We spent the same budget in antwerp but got much better quality for our money from Harold. I had been emailing Harold prior to us arriving so he had an idea of what I wanted and had sourced the relative diamonds and then Upon arrival Harold had 5 diamonds for us to choose from and he explained the qualities of each in great detail,When I chose the diamond I liked most he then had a few ring settings to choose from, he then sits the loose diamond into the setting to give u an idea of what the finished product will be like.
I felt the solitaire on its own was too plain so he suggested 5 diamonds down each side and then he also set these with tiny diamonds, so none of the band can be seen, the diamonds are on the ring as opposed to in the ring on the shoulders, We came back the next evening and the finished product was even nicer than I imagined it would be 
Since coming back it has been valued at EUR 2400 more than what my fiance paid for it. 
It is HRD certified but many of the rings I tried in Applebys, weirs and Breretons and Fields were also HRD certified.
The flights and hotel only cost us EUR 350 so it was definitely worth our while going.
Also, my ring is quite unusual, I have had so many compliments on how unusual it is from friends and family since we announced our engagement.
So my advise would be head to Antwerp !!!
I emailed a photo of my ring and all its criteria eg color,cut. clarity etc to diamant.ie and he quote me EUR 1975 more than what we paid so again he is taking his cut for going to antwerp to get ure diamond !! Go ureself !!


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## garyf

hi

glad to hear that antwerp was worth the trip, thinking of heading as well myself to have a look, wat kind of ring did u get and for how much? did you check out any other places or just harolds?


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## Excited

Hi Garyf

I had looked up [broken link removed] thats a guild that recommends jewellers and i emailed all 5 listed here but found harold to be the best, we shopped around here to get an idea of what i wanted and i emailed harold what i was looking for, our budget and he came back with suggestions.
Then when we arrived over there we did look in other jewellers also but harold was the most helpful and professional, not pushy at all.
his website is [broken link removed]
I got a white gold princess cut solitaire, 1 carat and it was mounted with 5 diamonds down each side, totalling .17 carats, so in total the ring is 1.17 carat set in an 18 carat white gold band, G colour, VVs1.My fiance paid EUR 3200 and we have had it valued here much higher.
I know this prob sounds very biased but in all honesty I have not seen a ring of it's style here in any of the jewellers, there are plenty of similiar ones but they are not as nice !! 
Are u going to take ure fiancee to be with you ?
let me know if you do decide to go as Harold gave us a " loyalty card number " so if anyone purchases from him with a recommendation from us then he will give them a discount, which is worth ure while


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## garyf

hi excited,
wow thats and excellent price, i will be travelling on my own but i have more than a fair idea of the kind of ring she wants, i have been emailing harold but he wouldnt quote any prices and said he would forward a catalogue which i am still waiting for. but it does seem like its the place to go, since the daimonds have the same certification as here only a lot more expensive its really a no brainer!


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## Excited

Hi GaryF

he prob cant give u a price until u give him an idea of the exact style ure looking for, i chose a ring from applebys and then emailed him a photo of it from their website so he knew exactly the type of style I wanted 

I dont mean to speak out of turn but would u not consider asking ure girlfriend to go with you, The ring I always thought I would want when I tried it on didnt suit my finger at all :-( 

A word of advice do not stay at the Astoria hotel we checked in and left after 3 rooms were deplorable ! We moved to the park plaza which is opp central station and really nice 

I will PM you some extra advice !


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## mrgtbad

hi Excited.
you said,,

got a white gold princess cut solitaire, 1 carat and it was mounted with 5 diamonds down each side, totalling .17 carats, so in total the ring is 1.17 carat set in an 18 carat white gold band, G colour, VVs1.My fiance paid EUR 3200 and we have had it valued here much higher.

i will be having salt and pepper with my hat which i will now eat.that is excellent.harold offered me 1ct h si for 5200.which was not excellent

regards


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## garyf

hi excited

well iv arranged a meeting with harold for 3 wks time so hopefully all goes to plan, but so far he has been very helpful through email so i expect my trip should be worth it


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## Eoin28

Hi,

I have visited this post many times over the last number of months and  found it extremely helpful in choosing my girlfriends engagement ring.

I did a lot of research into diamond prices in Ireland and visited a large number of Jewelers in Dublin, Clare, Limerick & Wexford. Even within Ireland, there is a large difference in price. 

Without doubt, Antwerp is the place to go to purchase a Diamond. You are immediately cutting out the middle man. Nearly every Jeweler I visited mentioned that all diamonds were bought in Antwerp. There would appear to be a number of posts suggesting that this is not the case…. I struggle to see the logic in this!!  

My original budget was 10k & wished to maybe keep this budget and increase the quality and size of the diamond by traveling to Antwerp. However, after trying on Many rings anything much over a Carrot looked too big. We were looking for a traditional YG Band with a high Solitaire set in WG. 

While the color of the Diamond is important the cut & the table % is more important. An excellent cut G color has far more sparkle than a poorly cut E color. This is something that a lot of Jewelers don’t mention. Most concentrate on color & weight of the diamond. When you go to Antwerp, the loose diamond is presented in the correct light and everything about it is explained to you (Color, Clarity, Weight, Cut). Therefore its hard to make an exact price comparison with a Diamond in Antwerp & Ireland. 

I made 2 visits to Antwerp. I was looking for a D color, Excellent Cut, with the best % table possible. In relation to clarity, small inclusions cannot be seen with the human eye. Even with the proper magnifying glass I find it extremely hard. Clarity makes a big difference in price. Therefore I was happy with VS1 or SI.

No preference in relation to HRD/IGI/GIA. These are all widely recognized. Some Jewelers in Ireland had very little certified diamonds. A lady in Paul Sheeran informed us she could grade the diamonds herself?? Keans Jewelers in Limerick mainly stocked uncertified diamonds, it would cost an additional 600 euro for a certified diamond.


The Diamond I purchased was:
D 1.17ct, VS1, Excellent Cut, 64% table.         7,650 (Revealing Hearts & Arrows under a special Scope)

Here are a few comparisons: 


Appleby –               

                                                      1.04ct EVS 12,495 
 
                                                      1.00ct ESI  10,000  

                                                       1.00ct DSI  10,690

Fines Limerick:
       1.01[FONT=&quot]  FVS2 10,800[/FONT]


Fields:                             .94ct FVS1 8,795
 


Weir & Sons:                 1.01 DSI  12,820         (.16ct Smaller – Same Clarity)
 

Hynes (Wexford)           1.22 GSI 12,850
 

Donovan & Matson      1.25ct DSI 11,500       (.08t larger – Lower Clarity)
 

These prices speak for themselves  – the trip to Antwerp is well worth it. I have yet to have the diamond independently valued however, from looking around I would imagine I saved about 40%.


I stayed at the Park  Plaza twice – excellent hotel. No Complaints. I can recommend a restaurant called “The Bistro” for great food. It is situated off the main shopping street in Antwerp. No idea of the street name.


Thank you for all your help, please feel PM me with any questions.


My tip would be to shop around Antwerp, visit all the well respected Jewelers in the Area. I can guarantee you will come back to Phillipp Harold. He without doubt was the most helpful, professional, informative & patient. He did not speak to us like a sales person. We changed our mind 3 times on the setting and had a huge amount of pitures e-mailed to us.


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## bamboozle

sounds like mrtgbad knows an awful lots about the diamond trade in dublin, that kinda knowledge plus an inability to see the huge difference in prices between dublin and antwerp would kinda point towards strong connections to the dublin industry,.....


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## mrgtbad

hi bamboozle.
 no , i just did my research.and if you had read my post you would have seen that harold offered me a diamond for one i could get here for extra 500 euro.plus i dont have to travel, risk my money , book hotel, rush buy and have no real come back. ie look at all those people who have lost money in this property company overseas this week.they have NO COMEBACK! they foolishly put there money at risk. and bamboozle what do you think of eoin28's post.now there is someone who seems to know loads....or does he.hes bought a diamond with a massive 64% table.but i did a quick search and 55%is recommended. see   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamond_cut
another website says it sacrifices the brillance of the diamond.
so much for the helpful sales talk.pulled the wool over the eyes more like it.  
http://www.bridaldiamond.com/info/how-to-read-gem-cert.cfm
it says  "Judged by any standards this is a dull and lifeless diamond. The table should not exceed 63% and the pavilion depth will leak a substantial amount of light. "

so now what to do? 


if eoin28 is upset he will have to book a flight €190.lose a weekend.hassle travel thru airport.book another hotel€140 per night.visit shop and hope against hope that they would change it.otherwise he (like those investors in a certain overseas property company) would be ..whats the word.?


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## mrgtbad

hi mouldy.
will start search.heres number 1
http://www.bridaldiamond.com/info/how-to-read-gem-cert.cfm
. Which Gem Lab issued the diamond grading report?This is a crucial and often overlooked factor in the evaluation of your diamond. We’ve been buying diamonds for over 40 years and can say without reservation that some labs are very strict in their Color and Clarity grades and some labs are soft in their grades. When it comes to Cut, the numbers speak for themselves. However, Color and Clarity are subjective to a gemologist’s opinion. A single bump in either Color or Clarity grade will increase the market value of a 1 carat diamond by about 10% and a 2 carat diamond by about 20%. 

If you view a diamond in our inventory that is priced substantially less than another diamond with similar Weight, Cut, Clarity and Color standards, take note of the lab that issued the grading report. *The most reliable* and strict grading reports are issued by *AGS and GIA*. This does not mean that buying a diamond with a report from another lab is a bad deal. You should simply be aware that the Color or Clarity may be a grade lower than stated, and evaluate the price accordingly . 
If you find what appears to be an extraordinary value on a stone evaluated by EGL, IGI, HRD, or AIG, we invite you to call our diamond buyer, Andy Marcum at (800) 418-7678. He will evaluate the stone personally and issue an informal opinion, at no cost, that is probably more representative of the true value of the diamond you have in mind. It may be a great bargain, even if the gemlab certificate overstates Color or Clarity.
There are several articles in the trade press that document the differences in grade ratings from various labs. You can read more here, or ask any trusted local jeweler about their opinion. The industry consensus is broad and in general agreement about the reliability of grading from different gem labs.


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## mrgtbad

mouldy will i go on.even im bored..

[broken link removed]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial]*GemLovers!*[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial]rough rock Posts: 7
Fromarkhill, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Nov 2000[/FONT] 
[broken link removed] [FONT=Verdana, Arial][FONT=Verdana, Arial]posted 01-06-2001 10:39 PM     [/FONT]I've noticed that diamonds with HRD certs out of Belgium are much lower in price. For a diamond with an HRD cert the prices seem to be 25% less or two diamond grades. Is this how Different the HRD grading is (two lower than the diamond would grade GIA)? Thanks![/FONT]

[broken link removed][broken link removed][broken link removed][FONT=Verdana, Arial]*leonid*[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial]Administrator Posts: 196
From:
Registered: Jul 2000[/FONT] 
[broken link removed] [FONT=Verdana, Arial][FONT=Verdana, Arial]posted 01-06-2001 11:37 PM     [/FONT]25% is a big difference indeed. Could you post the data here to compare? There is a site selling mostly HRD graded stones cut in Belgium - www.gendiat.com . First time I've seen it I was interested since you can find crown and pavilion angles for each stone. However, when I checked them by the Cut Adviser, I realized that all of them are awfully deep cut, i.e. much extra weight and dully look. [/FONT]


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## Mouldy

Sorry, i know I said I'd leave this alone.

Hi Mrtgbad

Thanks for the sites, I’ll have a read of them asap. 


However I interested in your post on this thread

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?p=394628#post394628

Where you say you had your ring made for you in a workshop in Dublin, which was 30% cheaper than Dublin shops. Well done!

Quote#3 

"we used a workshop in dublin and we were very happy.he handmade a beautiful singlestone diamond ring in platinum.it was 30%cheaper than going into a shop.if your intrested i'll get u the number.gtb"

So if that was 30% cheaper than going into a shop, and the price you paid was 4800 for the diamond (according to #90 on this thread) then the shop was charging est. 6857. Harold offered you the same one for 5200 and would have given you 25% off to pay in cash = 3900

So the actual difference between the high street and Antwerp, using your figures, is 2957 euros for that diamond.


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## Eoin28

mrgtbad said:


> hi bamboozle.
> no , i just did my research.and if you had read my post you would have seen that harold offered me a diamond for one i could get here for extra 500 euro.plus i dont have to travel, risk my money , book hotel, rush buy and have no real come back. ie look at all those people who have lost money in this property company overseas this week.they have NO COMEBACK! they foolishly put there money at risk. and bamboozle what do you think of eoin28's post.now there is someone who seems to know loads....or does he.hes bought a diamond with a massive 64% table.but i did a quick search and 55%is recommended. see   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamond_cut
> another website says it sacrifices the brillance of the diamond.
> so much for the helpful sales talk.pulled the wool over the eyes more like it.
> http://www.bridaldiamond.com/info/how-to-read-gem-cert.cfm
> it says  "Judged by any standards this is a dull and lifeless diamond. The table should not exceed 63% and the pavilion depth will leak a substantial amount of light. "
> 
> so now what to do?
> 
> 
> if eoin28 is upset he will have to book a flight €190.lose a weekend.hassle travel thru airport.book another hotel€140 per night.visit shop and hope against hope that they would change it.otherwise he (like those investors in a certain overseas property company) would be ..whats the word.?


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## Eoin28

*Hi mrgtbad**
Thank you for pointing out my slip of the finger when typing that post. The Diamond actually has a table of 58% (it has an amazing sparkle - i did enough research to know the % table i wanted). You correctly pointed out that the table size should be 55%. I was informed that anywhere between 55% & 60% is excellent.
I actually went back especially to collect the ring. I flew to Brussels with Ryanair for a whopping 26Euro (Including Taxes & Charges)  - Got 6:30 Flight from Dublin to Charleroi. Return train to Antwerp 21Euro. Flue Home at 10:15 that evening, had a very enjoyable day. *
*
Flights: 26 Euro 
Train:    21 Euro
Airport Parking: 7.50 Euro (Quickpark 

Total:  54.50 Euro*


*I was lucky to get my flights for a cenr each way plus taxes and charges, however the average flight to Brussels is 15euro plus T&C. No need to spend the night. Train service is reliable, comfortable and runs every half hour.*

*The extra value I received by traveling to Antwerp was huge. My diamond also shows hearts & arrows which speaks for itself.*

*I am simply posting my experience, and would highly recommend anyone traveling to Antwerp. I can not understand how anyone could have negativity towards purchasing in Antwerp. My only conclusion is that they are affiliated in some to Irish Jewelers as i can see more and more people traveling to Antwerp in the coming years.*


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## Brianne

I'm sitting here fascinated by all these knowledgabe people. God be with the days when I and my husband of thirty years went to a wholesale jewellers in a street off Grafton St. and paid 175 pounds for the ring. We were entitled to the discount because of his job. It's a solitaire and other than that I haven't a clue,it is shiny and has worn well. Incidentally, no ordinary person can look at a diamond and know for certain what it is or isn't. On another occasion we bought what we thought was a diamond complete with certificate abroad.It was supposed to be great value. When we had to do some valuation for insurance much to my surprise the engagment ring is a diamond but my lovely stone from abroad is pure zirconium.You need to get the cert and the diamond into your hand simultaneously and give no chance for a quick swap!!!


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## garyf

hey excited, iv left you a private message if you are reading this!


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## jewelry-fan

Thanks for all the info.  I'm browsing the net for  engagement rings to help a friend out.  We both know nothing about them


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## ubiquitous

jewelry-fan said:


> The Diamond I purchased was:
> D 1.17ct, VS1, Excellent Cut, 64% table.         7,650 (Revealing Hearts & Arrows under a special Scope)





Eoin28 said:


> Thank you for pointing out my slip of the finger when typing that post. The Diamond actually has a table of 58%



Some "slip of the finger"


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## mrgtbad

hi eoin 23,
 well done!!
your diamond sounds brilliant. you did really well.
the reason why i'm negitave about buying overseas is as per my list of reasons given already.plain and simple.


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## mrgtbad

hi mouldy.you dont have to leave this alone.its just a discussion and people have different opinions.
i'm not been smart, but i did get lost reading your post.we are talking 2different rings.harold recommended(i dont know why) a 18ct ring.we bought a much nicer diamond than his and in *platinum*.
any how, i know nothing about giving cash.he made no offer of this.i wonder if u get receipt?   this how he does business?


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## Nice Day

> the reason why i'm negitave about buying overseas is as per my list of reasons given already plain and simple.


mrgtbad, why give a list of reasons without first hand experience..

I have been to Harold after months of research and we are heading back in 2008 for our wedding bands.
The guy is honest, reliable and most importantly, very professional!

You should not knock a business because it is overseas.
  It is the Dublin jewellers I would be more worried about..
  They we’re quoting me crazy prices.
  My sister worked for a very well known Dublin jewellers and told me to go to Antwerp as we’re being ripped off here when it comes to jewellery.
  The whole experience dealing with Harold was great.. Forget about the expense of getting there.. We all take a break abroad now and then so head to Antwerp anyway as it is a beautiful city..

  If it is a case mrgtbad, that you are in the business, you have not done Dublin jewellers any favours.. The fact has been highlighted over and over, that Phillipe Harold’s is the place to go if your in the hunt for a special diamond with a very special experience thrown in for good measure..


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## Excited

I just want to say I totally agree with Niceday, Buying from Harold was wonderful and his fantastic manner and his professional ways just added to the whole experience and as u say we all take a weekend away so it added to the enjoyment of the wkend away to be coming home with a diamond and a very different style of ring 

My Fiance and I are heading back to Harold in Apr next yr to get our wedding bands.

Mrgtbad seems to have a very pessimistic outlook on the whole thing so I would say to anyone reading this who is thinking of going to Antwerp please do not be put off by her and her negativity, take on board all the positive experiences people have had with harold, at the end of the day she has never actually been to harold so she is " talking out of school "

there are lots of people who have been there, done it and have the diamond to prove it ! it seems to be that she is either jealous or is a dublin jeweller herself.


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## mphturbo

I have reading this thread with interest for the last few weeks. I find that some of the comments made are off the wall. 

As a very sceptical person who did considerable research on diamonds before travelling to Antwerp, I can only say that I was more than happy with the service and professionalism we received from Harold Phillippe.

Everything was totally above board and verifiable.


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## mrgtbad

hi nice day mphturbo and excited.
 wow. u all bought from this 1 shop.
interesting that


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## Excited

MPHturbo Agree whole heartedly.Mrgtbad yes we all may have purchased from Harold as he is a gentleman who is very knowledgeable in the diamond industry and also is so helpful via email prior to travel.

We shopped around in antwerp but alot of the sales assistants in the other jewellers hadn't got a clue just wanted a sale and their selection was not anywhere near to what Harold could offer us nor where they accomodating to altering the style of ring i wanted, but nothing was too much trouble for Harold he was so obliging and didnt rush us at all, we were over 2 hrs choosing my ring with him and he custom made it to my satisfaction.

I think you should get off this thread Mrgtbad as you are coming across as a jealous pessimist with no experience of Antwerp and have nothing useful to contribute to this forum.


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## ubiquitous

Excited said:


> I think you should get off this thread Mrgtbad as you are coming across as a jealous pessimist with no experience of Antwerp and have nothing useful to contribute to this forum.





Controversy and argument are welcome. But please keep your comments civil. Attack an opinion by all means, but please don't attack the person expressing the opinion.


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## jamesblonde

Hi all,
Great thread here.
We're going over for 1 night only. We'll have from 9am until 16.00 there. That doesn't seem to be ok, if we select a diamond and wait to have it set - or is it enough time?
Any thoughts on what our strategy should be for that one day? I was thinking of going to the HRD shops only, and emailing them in advance (the trip will be a surprise for herself).


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## decembersal

Hi JB,
I can second the recommendation for Harold Phillippe - am typing here being dazzled by my diamond. 
I emailed HP and a few other in advance of our trip to Antwerp, setting out exactly what I wanted and asked for a quote. When we arrived to Antwerp the jewellers had the diamonds lined up and I just chose the diamond I wanted. The next step was selecting the band. 
In relation to the same day collection of the ring, Harold Phillippe I'm sure can sort you out if you tell him exactly what you want and visit him first thing in the morning. If not he can fed ex the ring to you. (Just make sure your insurance is in place). 
Bring cash for extra negoiating power!
Best of luck.


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## jamesblonde

decembersal said:


> Hi JB,
> I can second the recommendation for Harold Phillippe - am typing here being dazzled by my diamond.
> I emailed HP and a few other in advance of our trip to Antwerp, setting out exactly what I wanted and asked for a quote. When we arrived to Antwerp the jewellers had the diamonds lined up and I just chose the diamond I wanted. The next step was selecting the band.
> In relation to the same day collection of the ring, Harold Phillippe I'm sure can sort you out if you tell him exactly what you want and visit him first thing in the morning. If not he can fed ex the ring to you. (Just make sure your insurance is in place).
> Bring cash for extra negoiating power!
> Best of luck.



Cheers decembersal!

Does the pay-by-cash discount apply for the HRD approved jewellers too?


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## Eoin28

Hi JB.

I think you need to stay a little longer in Antwerp if you want a handmade ring, unless you know exactly what you want and are super organised with the Diamond picked before you go. I went with my girlfriend for a couple of days during the summer. We were looking to go away for a few days and really enjoyed it. It took a while to decide on the exact setting, and on leaving Antwerp we still were not sure. However we had both made up our mind that we wanted a PH handmade ring. 

I e-mailed PH many times on my return and received many many pictures of different settings & diamonds. I didn’t want my Girlfriend to know how much i was spending to the rings, so she picked the diamond based on the size that suited her finger. 

One deciding on the diamond I negotiated the price. I returned to Antwerp on my own with cash, colleted the ring and flew back home that night. It is well worth your while if you can take a day off work. 

The particular design that i wanted took one week to make. It might be hard to fit everything into one day... Best of luck with it


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## jamesblonde

Thanks for the tips!


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## John Rambo

Hello everyone. I've been reading this thread for a while and decided to post my experiences. I purchased a ring from Harold recently and was delighted with the service and his professionalism. There do seem to be some quite vocal vested interests here which is natural given the threat trips to Antwerp, the US or South Africa pose to Irish jewellers. I worked out exactly the type of ring I wanted, priced it in Dublin and then had it designed and made by Harold. To purchase the exact same ring in Dublin would have cost me 50% more. Posters suggesting the cost of the trip cancels out any saving are mistaken. A return flight to Brussels is €80 including taxes. The train from the airport to Antwerp is €13 return and takes maybe 40 mins with one change at Brussels North. Obviously you could stay somewhere very cheap if on a budget but my accomodation was €120 and was fantastic. Travelling abroad to purchase jewellery makes complete sense as you are cutting out the middleman. Most Irish jewellers buy their stuff in Antwerp so the savings there are fantastic. The key is to go to someone you can trust and who has been recommended. I read this thread and decided to run with him and am glad I did.PS I'm not him! I know this is my first post and new posters recommending services is a bit strange but I'm just relaying the good experience I had recently with what was a big purchase for me.


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## ubiquitous

John Rambo said:


> I know this is my first post and new posters recommending services is a bit strange



It is indeed strange. Especially when the same service has been already recommended by a number of new arrivals recently, as well as by a few long-term contributors.


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## John Rambo

ubiquitous said:


> It is indeed strange. Especially when the same service has been already recommended by a number of new arrivals recently, as well as by a few long-term contributors.


 
Which is why I explained my contribution.I have purchased recently from that individual and don't see why you have an issue with that. As you say, many people have recommended the service. Nobody seems to have a bad word to say. The only reason I said that was because I saw crazy positive posts in the Brendan Investments thread. I've seen strange posts which were anti-Antwerp and you are questioning me for describing my positive experience? Perhaps you have a vested interest? Because from what I've read in this thread, and my own experience, opposition to buying jewellery abroad is illogical.


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## ubiquitous

John Rambo said:


> I... don't see why you have an issue with that. ..You are questioning me for describing my positive experience



I don't have an issue with you or your purchase. Neither did I question you.

I merely agreed with your own observation that your post sounded a bit strange.


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## John Rambo

ubiquitous said:


> I don't have an issue with you or your purchase. Neither did I question you.
> 
> I merely agreed with your own observation that your post sounded a bit strange.


 
I'm not sure I understand your need to comment then. I have been an avid observer of this thread in which a particular service has been recommended pretty much universally until the recent contributions of one individual. I too have a positive experience to relay, but I realise from other threads I've read that first time posters generally get attacked for having vested interests or actually being the person the topic is about, or related to. I point this out, and explain my thinking yet still you feel the need to make a completely unconstructive comment. Perhaps someone with as many posts as yourself should consider being less hostile and more welcoming? The thread is about purchasing diamonds/engagement rings in Antwerp. I have constructive comments to make which I hope will help other people. You apparently do not so maybe you should have a read of the "posting guidelines". I have.


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## jamesblonde

Hey Rambo,
Many of us other long-term lurkers appreciate your feedback.


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## garyf

just back from antwerp, bought from harold phillipe, spent the same money i was planning on spending in ireland but got a much better deal with a bigger stone, id have paid between 1k-1.5k more in ireland, il know for def when i  get it valued,worth the trip however didnt get the 20% discount on the tax as others got


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## garyf

i paid in cash with US dollars


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## mrgtbad

excited said...
"I think you should get off this thread Mrgtbad as you are coming across as a jealous pessimist with no experience of Antwerp and have nothing useful to contribute to this forum."

 hi excited.
dont bully people.
i gave good reasons not to travel.thats all.no one likes a bully.


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## jamesblonde

I bought recently in Antwerp from Katz, but I can recommend Phillipe-Harold and Maurice at Diamondland. It was a hard decision.
We bought color over cut, where we chose an E with good cut over an F with excellent cut. Many prefer it the other way around, but hey I'm not the boss!

I would recommend anybody who buys to look at www.bluenile.com to find out if the price of what you're being offered is reasonable. It's a good base-line.


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## jamesblonde

mrgtbad said:


> excited said...
> "I think you should get off this thread Mrgtbad as you are coming across as a jealous pessimist with no experience of Antwerp and have nothing useful to contribute to this forum."
> 
> hi excited.
> dont bully people.
> i gave good reasons not to travel.thats all.no one likes a bully.



Oh yeah, just to reinforce the point to others.
This guy, Mrgtbad, is obviously somebody with an interest in the Irish engagement ring business. His utterings are self-serving drivel. Ignore him.


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## ClubMan

This threads is going nowhere at this stage so I am closing it.


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