# Anglo-What else is to come out



## papervalue (10 Feb 2009)

Seem on news this evening about the large deposit before year end and withdrawn after year end. This is absolutely amazaing in current climate.

I think it is now time to send in a team to look at bank over next 60 days and publish a immediate report of what went on their.

What has come out from anglo from accounts point of view is purely shocking, unacceptable, unethical.

I just cant seem any excuse for what happened.

What else is to come out?

Are they drip feeding all the bad news. We had director loans, large deposits etc what next.


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## theresa1 (10 Feb 2009)

We are sadly heading for civil unrest similar to Greece.


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## papervalue (10 Feb 2009)

theresa1 said:


> We are sadly heading for civil unrest similar to Greece.


 
I actually said that to some one to-day- I think we are not far off civil unrest.


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## Towger (10 Feb 2009)

papervalue said:


> Seem on news this evening about the large deposit before year end and withdrawn after year end. This is absolutely amazaing in current climate.


 
Sounds more like Enron with each new revelation. They are calling it [broken link removed] now. Some would call it 'cooking the books' others would call it 'fraud', I would be more amazed if anyone spent time in jail for it.


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## callybags (10 Feb 2009)

What's actually wrong with it?


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## D8Lady (10 Feb 2009)

One bank giving another bank a dig out?!


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## callybags (10 Feb 2009)

Seems perfectly reasonable to me so long as no laws were broken.


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## z103 (10 Feb 2009)

> Seems perfectly reasonable to me so long as no laws were broken.


Yes but who make up these 'laws'? Pretty much arbitrary.

Maybe the strikes will develop into riots.


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## theresa1 (10 Feb 2009)

It's abit like what people did when they applied for an Australian Visa -got a loan of money to stick in their bank a/c to show they had funds. Well I think it's far more serious than that. We are the laughing stock of Europe and on Prime Time the Sunday Times columist said we are in a Depression -be afraid be very afraid!


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## Carramore (10 Feb 2009)

callybags said:


> Seems perfectly reasonable to me so long as no laws were broken.


 No, it's not perfectly reasonable.  I would have expected better of IL&P.  They knowingly conspired with senior management in Anglo to give a false impression of the balance sheet of the bank at its year end.  Shame on them.  Do the people who did this meet the "fit and proper" criteria?  Not in my books.


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## horatio1 (10 Feb 2009)

Gillian Bowler on morning ireland having a go at the presenters tone of voice and boasting how the top peoples salaries were justified as they were a fine upstanding bank! It appears this dig out happened after the government guarantee,it's about time Lenihan realised that he is being led a merry dance.


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## Afuera (10 Feb 2009)

horatio1 said:


> It appears this dig out happened after the government guarantee,it's about time Lenihan realised that he is being led a merry dance.


Agreed. Anglo should have been let die a natural death. After these last months, there is still no reasonable explanation for why it was covered in the guarantee. Someone really needs to look and see who the people are that would have been hurt by Anglo collapsing and see what link (if any) there is between them and the government/regulator. The whole thing stinks!


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## mercman (11 Feb 2009)

callybags said:


> Seems perfectly reasonable to me so long as no laws were broken.



This is a Bit of a daft comment here. It has taken how many months before this little bit if truth came out. God only knows when the rest will hit the Public Domain. As well as that IL & P are responsible for hundreds of thousands of pensions and Investments. They should have spoken out long before now to explain their happenings. 

Instead the entire Banking system has become a joke for which the respect by the World Financial markets that has been achieved over the past 10 years has literally dissipated. 

I have said it before and now again, these Bank Directors should be arrested and charged for placing the entire corporate structure in Ireland as questionable. They should all be barred from acting in Corporate Director roles for life. Imagine earning a six figure sum for placing the country into the Manure heap. And yes Gillian Bowler was on Morning Ireland acting as if she and her colleagues were doing this petty job as a favour. Time to go, Ladies and Gentlemen before as other have put it Civil Unrest takes centrestage and literally runs these folk out of the country.


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## Shawady (11 Feb 2009)

Apologies if this is an obvious question - but what is being implied here?
Is it that IL & P deposited a large sum of money into Anglo Irish Bank to make its end of year records look better prior to the state bail out?
If this is the case surely this was intentional defrauding of the government.


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## mercman (11 Feb 2009)

Maybe not defrauding but certainly the providing of inaccurate and false information. And believe me there is more to come out yet !! We have gone from been a Proactive indigenous country to a real BANANA republic. And thanks to the squeaky clean Banks.


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## WaterSprite (11 Feb 2009)

Shawady said:


> Apologies if this is an obvious question - but what is being implied here?
> Is it that IL & P deposited a large sum of money into Anglo Irish Bank to make its end of year records look better prior to the state bail out?
> If this is the case surely this was intentional defrauding of the government.



That is indeed the implication.  I am sick to my stomach even thinking about it.


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## mercman (11 Feb 2009)

WaterSprite said:


> I am sick to my stomach even thinking about it.



You and everybody else that has had to beg these wretched Banks for a single cent. And they are all in a Cartel.


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## Mpsox (11 Feb 2009)

The issue here to me is the intent behind the actions of IL&P and whether or not it was done at the beheast of the Anglo board. 

If this was a normal banking transaction (and the banks do hold funds deposited with each other) and IL&P got a decent return on their investement then it may simply have been a no risk BAU transaction by IL&P, given that the deposit was backed by the government.

However, if it was done at the request of Anglo management, if they knew it was a short term funding then that could be a different story. As a result of this €7billion deposit Anglo were able to say to the markets and investors that their deposits had actually gone up for the year(which because of this, they had). If people and funds subsequently invested in Anglo, were they not potentially misled by Anglo and what would the consequences of that be. Were they to sue, are Anglo, and therefore the Govt(and us as taxpayers) now liable?

The other issue to me is the lack of transparancy in relation to Anglo, it makes you wonder if this is the tip of the iceberg.?


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## mercman (11 Feb 2009)

Mpsox, believe me the best is yet to come.


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## Shawady (11 Feb 2009)

Just out of interest, if IL&P did not deposit that sum of money would be have been the possible outcomes for Anglo? Would the government have decided it was in such a bad way, it would be better to be wound up?


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## Guest116 (11 Feb 2009)

mercman said:


> Mpsox, believe me the best is yet to come.


 
What do you know, tell us!


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## GSheehy (11 Feb 2009)

The Government knew about the deposit before it decided to nationalise Anglo.

[broken link removed]


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## papervalue (11 Feb 2009)

Update- It nows turn out that Brian Lenihan did not read the full report he was given into Anglo.

I stand to be corrected but i dont think brian cowen had a copy of report either.

You would think even if you did not read report, surely a meeting took place to full inform Brian Cowen and Brian Lenihan of all the problems.

It looks like a decision was made with only part of the facts- They were missing a fair bit of information? Beyond belief.

The money lodged was treated as a customer deposit and not inter bank loan- No matter what way you look at it it was premediated.

Now time to repalce the whole upper tier of Anglo and the whole upper tier of financil regulator office.

Maybe it is also time to reshape the department of finance and get in fresh blood from private sector.

It is nearly at the stage where they will have to create a toxic bank to take in the bad debt element.

Some kind of deal will have to be done to get banks back lending to small companies.

The last person not to read a report was Michael Martin and nursing home fees, also had lisbon.

What's point of giving them a report if they are not going to read it?


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## mercman (11 Feb 2009)

papervalue said:


> Now time to repalce the whole upper tier of Anglo and the whole upper tier of financil regulator office.
> 
> Maybe it is also time to reshape the department of finance and get in fresh blood from private sector.



We are fast getting to a stage where the entire Civil Service will have to be replaced. What a joke ???


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## mercman (11 Feb 2009)

aristotle25 said:


> What do you know, tell us!



And there's more, don't worry. In fact the best is yet to come.


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## Eblanoid (11 Feb 2009)

Dáil uproar as Lenihan says he was unaware of loans
[broken link removed]


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## D8Lady (11 Feb 2009)

mercman said:


> And there's more, don't worry. In fact the best is yet to come.



C'mon mercman, you can't be such a tease! Spill it!


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## papervalue (12 Feb 2009)

I am doing the Job- Quote by Brian Lenihan on Morning Ireland 

Interested to see Job Spec for Finance Minister.

Seems you do not have to read full reports.

The most essential report he probaly had in years.

I wonder how many more reports are in govertment departments not yet read by ministers. imagine the cost of these reports.

I would suggest that every single report the minister receives is put up on a dedicated website within seven days. ( at least them it would be transparent)

I think it is now time for Brian Lenihan to consider his position as facts he should have been aware of was not paased on to cabinet or opposition.

I think if this was fully in public domain and time of anglo going nationalised, I think the bank would have been wound up.


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## Shawady (12 Feb 2009)

mercman said:


> And there's more, don't worry. In fact the best is yet to come.


 
You may be right. This is a quote from rte.e this morning.
"Mr Lenihan also said further information about Anglo Irish Bank will emerge in the coming weeks when a report into its dealings is published."


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## mercman (12 Feb 2009)

And believe me they are outstanding revelations. I just hope that the entire comes out in the Public Domain. once and for all.


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## askalot (12 Feb 2009)

Shawady said:


> You may be right. This is a quote from rte.e this morning.
> "Mr Lenihan also said further information about Anglo Irish Bank will emerge in the coming weeks when a report into its dealings is published."



And Lenihan expects the international markets to invest in Irish banks with that nugget of information left hanging in the air! Shambolic.


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## Towger (12 Feb 2009)

askalot said:


> And Lenihan expects the international markets to invest in Irish banks with that nugget of information left hanging in the air! Shambolic.


 
I am so annoyed by the whole thing that I just deleted a long post I was writing.Anyway, the bank shares are heading in there usual direction this morning, so the market has spoken.
[broken link removed]


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## Shawady (12 Feb 2009)

Whats strange in all of this, is that the officials at the Dept of Finance knew about this in October and refered it to the the Financial Regulator but did not bring it to the attention of the Minister. This seems unbelievable.


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## D8Lady (12 Feb 2009)

Officials have to point things out to him otherwise he won't read it??

As ministier for _finance_ he was reading a report about a bank that was going down the swanee. It's not something that happens everyday. 

And he couldn't read a 120 page report?  

What ever the emotion beyond anger is, I am there


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## Shawady (12 Feb 2009)

D8Lady said:


> Officials have to point things out to him otherwise he won't read it??
> 
> As ministier for _finance_ he was reading a report about a bank that was going down the swanee. It's not something that happens everyday.
> 
> ...


 
I absolutly aggree he should have read the report. I just find it bizarre this casual attitude that something that was serious enough to be brought to the attention of the regulator was not at least discussed on some level with the minister.
I heard someone suggest on the radio this morning that the reason why he has said he did not read all the report is because there is more to come out and wants to take the line that he didn't know about it.
Mercman could be right.


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## mercman (12 Feb 2009)

Shawady said:


> Mercman could be right.



Mercman is right. I was talking with someone working in the City in London a few minutes ago, and what is being portrayed over there is the amount of lies, deceipt and dishonesty which the Irish Banks have embarked upon. The time has come for Brain Cowen to kick Ass and show who is running the country instead of the 'lunatics running the asylum'.


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## D8Lady (12 Feb 2009)

It would be better if it all came out quickly to get it over with.


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## mercman (12 Feb 2009)

100% agree. But with the lies etc. already dispelled, who would believe anything that was told now.


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## Caveat (12 Feb 2009)

Has anyone considered that what happened, while it may appear unethical or morally dubious, may not actually contravene any law or regulation?  

IL&P may have been 'sailing close to the wind' as they say, but they did make a vague statement that implied the FR may have known about the transaction - or perhaps more pertinently - was he advised of only the minimum detail required by guidelines etc perhaps?

They may have very little to actually answer for.


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## mercman (12 Feb 2009)

Caveat, they have an awful lot to answer to. These persons were entrusted to look after customers money. Simple as that. Across the board they have undertaken reckless behaviour, and got a big fat pay cheque for it. All we're short of in this country is arming these people with automatic Handguns.

A new word for criminals -- BANKERS


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## D8Lady (12 Feb 2009)

@Cavaet: The IL&P deposits were made out to be customer deposits not inter-bank transfers. The effect was to mislead sharehalders and investers understanding of the true natue of the bank's books. 

The office of corporte governance is investigating.
I'd just like the fraud squad in there too.


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## PetPal (12 Feb 2009)

mercman said:


> Mercman is right. I was talking with someone working in the City in London a few minutes ago, and what is being portrayed over there is the amount of lies, deceipt and dishonesty which the Irish Banks have embarked upon. The time has come for Brain Cowen to kick Ass and show who is running the country instead of the 'lunatics running the asylum'.


Is it just me?  I'm agog as to why we're all still putting up with this?  Why aren't we out there marching or (at the very least) congregating outside the Minister's office demanding that he do his job?  I'm furious ... with the Govt ... with the bankers .... with the Regulator ... but mostly with myself/ourselves ...... surely there is something that we can do about this - isn't there?  Seriously - anybody got any suggestions as to how we can stop just letting this country go down the drain??  The rest of the world must see us now as something akin to Zimbabwe!  Surely we have to fight this.


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## Rightly dun (12 Feb 2009)

I have been fighting my own battle with the Financial Regulator and the Director of Corporate enforcement since 2005 with regard to this very same thing (*white collar crime*) and it is already and has been for some time that the lunatics are running the asylum. This is never going to change because not only are the 'lunatics running the asylum' the lunatics are writing the Law to run this asylum so that the law can not touch them.
PetPal it’s not just you there are many of us who have had it up to our neck and if you hear of any thing that people want to do (*peaceful*) I’ll be on the front line with you. I was arrested in the Financial Regulator Office last week because they would not answer any of my own questions and I said that I would not leave until they were answered as I have being asking these questions for a very long time. I was put in a cell for a couple of hours and then just thrown out of the station with no charge.
People who we are *paying* are not doing their job and getting very well paid while not doing their job this has to stop.


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## askalot (12 Feb 2009)

PetPal said:


> surely there is something that we can do about this - isn't there?  Seriously - anybody got any suggestions as to how we can stop just letting this country go down the drain??



I think the unions should turn their day of protests against the pension levy (21st Feb) into a wider protest against the government and invite all sections of society to march.


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## PetPal (12 Feb 2009)

Rightly dun said:


> I have been fighting my own battle with the Financial Regulator and the Director of Corporate enforcement since 2005 with regard to this very same thing (*white collar crime*) and it is already and has been for some time that the lunatics are running the asylum. This is never going to change because not only are the 'lunatics running the asylum' the lunatics are writing the Law to run this asylum so that the law can not touch them.
> PetPal it’s not just you there are many of us who have had it up to our neck and if you hear of any thing that people want to do (*peaceful*) I’ll be on the front line with you. I was arrested in the Financial Regulator Office last week because they would not answer any of my own questions and I said that I would not leave until they were answered as I have being asking these questions for a very long time. I was put in a cell for a couple of hours and then just thrown out of the station with no charge.
> People who we are *paying* are not doing their job and getting very well paid while not doing their job this has to stop.


I'm heartened that you at least tried to get your questions answered but absolutely aghast that you ended up in a cell.  How absolutely disgraceful.  These are the sorts of things that we need to protest about.  We're simply asking questions and nobody will answer.  We are being treated like the proverbial sh1t.  I also agree with Askalot.  I'll be there on the front line if anything can be organised.  I wonder if Union representatives are reading this?


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## Conan (12 Feb 2009)

OK, lets all march to Government Buildings and force the Government to:

Abolish the new Pensions Levy
Retain all public sector employees at current salary levels plus the National Wage agreement
Sack all the Financial Regulators staff
Abolish any recapitalisation of AIB & BOI
Fire all the Bankers (not needed after above)
Abolish any expenditure cuts
Guarantee that they wont introduce any property tax
Guarantee that they wont increase Income Tax
If we can do that, everything will be fine. Just give me a little time to grow my beard so I will fit in with the march leaders.

Cant wait, bring it on!


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## PetPal (12 Feb 2009)

Conan said:


> OK, lets all march to Government Buildings and force the Government to:
> 
> Abolish the new Pensions Levy
> Retain all public sector employees at current salary levels plus the National Wage agreement
> ...


 
I don't know where you got the idea that I wanted to abolish expenditure cuts, abolish the pensions levy etc etc (as per your above rant)!  I certainly didn't get the impression that anybody was asking for that.  What we were (what I was) protesting about was that people in powerful positions are making mistakes (or worse) with our money and then refusing to answer our legitimate questions.  That's all.  I do have a right to expect answers to legitimate questions from those who are spending my money, or are you saying that I don't have that right?  It's a novel point of view and it will be interesting to see if others agree with you.


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## Rightly dun (12 Feb 2009)

you forgot to add, Abolish Christmas and Easter

Get real


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## mercman (12 Feb 2009)

Conan said:


> Abolish the new Pensions Levy
> Retain all public sector employees at current salary levels plus the National Wage agreement




 Great !! The couple of things which the Government have done to tide us through the mess and you all say don't touch. As far as I can see there is a breed of Communism erupting again.


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## theresa1 (12 Feb 2009)

When I saw Cowen trying to defend Lenihan on the news tonight I got so angry. When the Green's finally pull the plug on this Goverenment it will not fool me one bit. If the situation get's much worse I can see a swing back to a no vote on Lisbon. Well if we wont march on the street's at least all vote No. We Irish really do put up with a hell of alot - the union's need to teach Cowen a lesson.


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## PetPal (12 Feb 2009)

theresa1 said:


> When I saw Cowen trying to defend Lenihan on the news tonight I got so angry. When the Green's finally pull the plug on this Goverenment it will not fool me one bit. If the situation get's much worse I can see a swing back to a no vote on Lisbon. Well if we wont march on the street's at least all vote No. We Irish really do put up with a hell of alot - the union's need to teach Cowen a lesson.


 
Right, but let's not submit just yet to the "If we won't march .....".  Marching is still an option!  I seriously don't think anything else will work - they simply won't listen until we force them to.  All I want is to see that people who have been responsible for wasting my money (and then refusing to apology or explain themselves) are held accountable.  Alas I'm not at all sure that a brand new Govt is the answer, or that the Opposition has all the answers, but I do know that those in the present Govt who have been negligent need to admit it and be held accountable .... somehow.  (As do those in Institutions that have also been negligent with our money).  People power is the only way as far as I can see at this stage unfortunately.


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## Conan (12 Feb 2009)

*Mercman
*My irony is obviously lost on you.
As you will see from my other posts, I fully support the moves to cut public expenditure. What I object to is the "beardies" (SIPTU etc) on the one hand saying that the Pensions Levy is an attack on the innocent public sector employee and at the same time refuse to recognise that it is the exposed private sector who are really paying the price. Try explaining to the people in Dell or SR Technics why public sector employees should remain insulated with their guaranteed jobs and guaranteed pensions. As we have seen with certain high profile public servants, it is impossible to sack them (unless of course you buy them off with a golden handshake).
So forgive me if I fail to turn up for the Congress (!) march.


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## Brendan Burgess (13 Feb 2009)

Another thread going into Letting Off Steam


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