# Remote (SIM) control of central heating



## dub_nerd (25 Jan 2013)

I've needed a way to control home heating remotely for a long time (for slow starting UFH) but haven't got round to it yet.

I was interested to see in Electric Ireland's latest e-mailing (Switched On #15) a system called "Climote" which does this job. Only thing is, the price seems nuts -- €299 including installation ("reduced from RRP of €399") and €40 odd per year for the "remote access fee".

Now I haven't even looked carefully yet, but it seems to me that I can easily get a single relay controller from the UK or Europe for half that money, and a PAYG SIM that just receives text inputs costs a tenner up front and zero for ongoing "remote access". Admittedly I'd have to do wiring myself, but we are talking about replacing a single switch -- hardly rocket science.

Has anyone else looked into this or other systems in more detail? Is there any reason for Electric Ireland's crazy price other than the usual -- gullible captive audience?


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## gipimann (25 Jan 2013)

I haven't looked into Climote, but you might be interested in a competition over on boards.ie, where you could win one

http://www.boards.ie/ttfthread/2056861158


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## dub_nerd (26 Jan 2013)

Thanks gipimann, but as the old saying goes ... "I wouldn't take it if it was free". 
Well, 'cos it _isn't_ free ... it's a €40/yr "remote access fee" which _would_ actually be free on a PAYG SIM.
I'd probably use it no more than half a dozen timesa year ... it would stick in my craw to be paying more than a fiver to turn the heating on.


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## MrEarl (26 Jan 2013)

Hello,

Like dub_nerd, I also got the promotional email from Electric Ireland and was interested in learing a bit more, thought this was a good idea etc.

However, having given this a bit more thought, I found myself wondering why would I never want to use something like this regularly, when I've got a timer on my heating system and can just manually adjust my temp. setting from time to time ?

Unless I'm missing something serious in terms of the features this gizmo offers, then it's a load of rubbish for anyone who already has a decent timer on their system.  Money spent putting in zone controls, might be a better investment ....


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## Leo (28 Jan 2013)

Yeah, I looked at the Climote recently too but ruled it out. Very expensive for what it is. 

Do you have a home alarm system that is connected to the phone line/ SIM? Depending on the alarm, you may have the option of remotely turning on/off an output on the panel that could power a relay.

One problem with the SIM is, even though you can get them for a tenner, most require a regular top-up to keep them active.

From other posts, building your own solution from [broken link removed] components might be an option for you? There are a lot of X10 based solutions out there too.


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## JohnJay (28 Jan 2013)

this popped up as a facebook advert today. [broken link removed].

A very simple idea that could probably be adapted to switch on your heating.

Edit - it doesnt need a sim, it uses your wifi


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## Shane007 (28 Jan 2013)

I recently zoned a system for a client who wanted remote access.
We looked at Climote and turned it down as it has €36 per annum fee plus it can only remotely tell you the temperature from the built in sensor within the controller. Most people have their time clocks in the kitchen or utility. This would not be a good location for a thermostat as those rooms would not be a true average temperature for a zone.
The other restriction was they cannot communicate with an external 2nd stat or hot water cylinder stat, so you cannot control temperature remotely.
Luckily the client was extremely techie, so we opted for the Heatmiser system. The time clock is built into each stat. The hot water is built into one of them so only 2 required. They communicate remotely via wi-fi so no annual fees. A separate router is required if you wish to tie both stat together. An app is downloaded to operate via smart phone or it can be done on-line.


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## dub_nerd (29 Jan 2013)

JohnJay said:


> this popped up as a facebook advert today. [broken link removed].
> 
> A very simple idea that could probably be adapted to switch on your heating.
> 
> Edit - it doesnt need a sim, it uses your wifi


 
Thanks JohnJay ... looks interesting. I believe they are launching a light switch version later this year, which could also be more appropriate for central heating switching. The existing switch gets some terrible reviews, unfortunately, to do with unreliability in staying connected to the WiFi.

If it worked, it would be perfect for me -- I have permanently on WiFi, and can use dyndns.org to enable port forwarding. So no SIM needed. It seems a bit nuts that there is only smartphone app support -- not even a PC application, let alone a website that you can do your switching from. I also make a habit of not trusting Belkin gear, but I am prepared to be persuaded.


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## serotoninsid (29 Jan 2013)

dub_nerd said:


> If it worked, it would be perfect for me -- I have permanently on WiFi, and can use dyndns.org to enable port forwarding. So no SIM needed.


This definitely sounds interesting.  Surely there is enough of a market out there for someone to base a heating control product on the basis of that device?  Even better, if they could further develop the app - so that it could check real time external temperature (for example, if it linked in to accuweather or similar service), the app could offer a setting to switch heating on at a specified external temperature.  It would just need to be set to check real time weather data every 5-10 minutes.

The above would most likely cost less than eur 100. I have gotten various quotes over the past 5 years for heating controls - ranging from €500-€1000 (after seai grant).  I even got a quote from a company offering multi-zoning (by way of electronically controllable thermostatic radiator valves) for a whopping €2500!!  No that's not a typo - the quote was €2500 - and that was for 12 radiators and would still need the use of a sim in the gsm module.
Some will say that we wouldnt be comparing like with like - but whilst taking actual temperatures internally will be a smidgen more accurate, there would be a massive difference in outlay.  Furthermore, the other frustrating thing was that with conventional heating controls, to retrofit them often meant having unsightly qualplex cable runs (some of those who quoted said it couldn't be avoided).

*<EDIT>*Just after looking up the heatmiser system that Shane mentioned above - and I suppose it does all that is necessary.  

@Shane007:  Are the stats that work with this battery powered or mains?  In my case, I don't have any stats right now - so would have to retrofit.  It that meant not having to run cabling, it would be much better.
Have an analogue timer in utility - with 2 switches for selection of three zones i.e. both off but heating otherwise on = hot water only; 1 switch for downstairs; Other switch for upstairs.
Do you think this system could be used in my case?  How difficult would it be to install? *</EDIT>*


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## Shane007 (29 Jan 2013)

The ones I installed were mains fed as they were wired to motorized valves & ultimately back to fire the boiler.
I would think they also do a wireless range with a receiver to be hard wired to the valves or the boiler.
It sounds like your system is already zoned so, generally it would not be a huge job to retrofit them to the valves. This will ensure proper boiler interlock.
By the sounds of it you do not have a motorized valve on the hw. This would be a must to really bring your running costs down. Only heat the hw when you need to.


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## Shane007 (29 Jan 2013)

serotoninsid said:


> I even got a quote from a company offering multi-zoning (by way of electronically controllable thermostatic radiator valves) for a whopping €2500!!  No that's not a typo - the quote was €2500 - and that was for 12 radiators



That was probably the Honeywell wireless TRV Evohome System. I installed a few of them a couple of years ago & the material cost was of over €2,000. Nice system but a lot of batteries to replace in each TRV. By memory, there was 3 or 4 batteries in each, so that is 48 batteries to replace when they go!
The good thing is you can have just one radiator on if that is all you wish, say for at home doing some work in a home office, etc.


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## serotoninsid (30 Jan 2013)

Shane007 said:


> The ones I installed were mains fed as they were wired to motorized valves & ultimately back to fire the boiler.
> I would think they also do a wireless range with a receiver to be hard wired to the valves or the boiler.


Nobody can find the motorised valve for the zone downstairs.  We think that the builders put it directly below the hot press behind a plasterboard wall!
I know that's a problem that I'm likely to run into at some stage - but I'm not going breaking in there until that arises.  For the purposes of the heating controls, hopefully I could hook this up to the boiler itself.

I'll contact heatmiser in relation to that and wireless controls and see what they come back with.


Thanks for your posts on this - much appreciated.





			
				Shane007 said:
			
		

> That was probably the Honeywell wireless TRV Evohome System. I installed a few of them a couple of years ago & the material cost was of over €2,000. Nice system but a lot of batteries to replace in each TRV. By memory, there was 3 or 4 batteries in each, so that is 48 batteries to replace when they go!
> The good thing is you can have just one radiator on if that is all you wish, say for at home doing some work in a home office, etc.



Nice system for sure - but very hard to justify that level of expenditure.


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## Shane007 (30 Jan 2013)

I would certainly try to find the valve. I have come across a few like that over the years but the time you really do not want it to fail is the time it will. They are generally not that difficult to locate. I use thermal image cameras to follow heated pipes. Another tool is camera with flexible lens lead. Drill small hole in plasterboard & insert camera.

Heatmiser have a Dublin number that diverts you to their UK technical support, so you do not have to pay international call rates. 01 - 485 2893. You should find them very helpful. You can buy direct or through a local merchant.


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## serotoninsid (31 Jan 2013)

*Heatmiser - Steer well clear of them!*



Shane007 said:


> I would certainly try to find the valve. I have come across a few like that over the years but the time you really do not want it to fail is the time it will. They are generally not that difficult to locate. I use thermal image cameras to follow heated pipes. Another tool is camera with flexible lens lead. Drill small hole in plasterboard & insert camera.


Point well made - and your not the first to make it to me. I've resigned to the fact that this will become an issue at some stage.  However, I'm prepared to deal with it as it arises - not everyones approach - but that's the option that suits me best right now.



Shane007 said:


> Heatmiser have a Dublin number that diverts you to their UK technical support, so you do not have to pay international call rates. 01 - 485 2893.



Given that they wouldnt respond via email and were not prepared to contact me via the number I had provided, it would have been beneficial if they advised me of the irish number as opposed to the uk number!



Shane007 said:


> You should find them very helpful. You can buy direct or through a local merchant.



I don't doubt your experience with them but that wasn't mine yesterday morning!

Contacted Heatmiser yesterday via email with my query - explaining my setup and asking them to provide a list of the kit needed.  Received a response saying to ring their UK number (I had provided mine - why they couldnt make the call is anyones guess).  Called - then put on hold twice.  He then started rattling off model numbers for the various bits of kit that would be needed.  I was trying to write these out on a scrap of paper - and asked if he would email on the list.
i.e. ONLY a simple list of the items required (so as I wouldn't end up ordering the wrong kit).  There was a long pause followed by..."um...yeah - you should take note of them now anyway".  i.e. in other words, I wont bother taking the 2 minutes required to email that to you.  
He then clarified that the 'stats would have to be wired to the mains.  I told him that I needed wireless battery powered stats.  At this point, he feigned hearing loss - pretending that there was a problem with the line - that he couldn't hear me....and ultimately hung up on me - the customer.  No call back, no email.
When the ticket was closed, I received an automated email asking me to complete a satisfaction survey.  I provided the account above.
No call back, no email.

Steer clear - and source elsewhere.

Additionally, their system works out quite expensive when all is said and done.  In addition to the controller unit and 2 'stats, there's an extra piece of kit required if the system is to be accessed via web browser/app. Tot that all together and it's cost-prohibitive.  I would say exactly how much but I'm unsure of the ruddy product model numbers!


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## JohnJay (31 Jan 2013)

this stuff looks nice, dont know how good it is though....

[broken link removed]


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## Marion (31 Jan 2013)

I bought it.

I was away over Christmas and New Year. It enabled me to  check the temperature  on my app over wifi. I was able to adjust it when the temperature dropped I was able to adjust it when some family members used my house and I had the house cosy for their visit in my absence. And I was able to adjust it after their visit.

I just have one zone. (TRV's in upstairs bedrooms.)

I use it to turn on my heat just before I leave work (varying times).

Is it worth it? It gave me huge peace of mind while I was away.

Marion


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## dub_nerd (10 Nov 2013)

Well, here we are, another winter and I still haven't gotten round to remote controlling the heating. I am now looking at these two basic SIM-controlled options:

http://texton.ie/

http://www.smscentralheating.co.uk/

My question, if anyone can help, is really about mobile SIMs. Which Irish providers, if any, can provide a PAYG mobile SIM with credit that never expires. A controller that works by text message with status responses might need less than a fiver credit per year, while the type that switches on in response to a phone call (which it doesn't answer) might use no credit at all. (I found this note from Tesco mobile which suggests that "credit from top-ups never expires" but it's not clear if it refers to an existing plan you can buy).

If there's no non-expiring SIM, what is the next cheapest option? Obviously anything that needs monthly top-ups would be completely useless for this application.


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## suzie (10 Nov 2013)

Quick reply so I don't forget. Check the diy forum over on boards recent thread on this if you haven't already.


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## dub_nerd (10 Nov 2013)

Thanks. I read a few threads on boards, but can't find any recent related diy one.


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## suzie (10 Nov 2013)

*right website wrong forum!!*

I was close!!! http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057069700

S.


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## dub_nerd (4 Sep 2014)

It's over 18 months since I started the thread, and I refuse to go another winter without being able to remote control my central heating.

I want something simple to install and operate, no fancy wiring, must be controllable by GSM, _not_ internet, and have no exorbitant ongoing running costs. I have a heating system with its own fairly sophisticated programming facilities to control zones and temperatures, which I can preset. So all I need is something to switch on the main switch. Must be cheaper than "Climote" (€300 + €40/year)

Here's what I'm thinking:


A Tesco PAYG SIM card, stick on a few quid credit which never expires. (Anyone have any other info/confirmation about whether Tesco call credit expires, or SIM gets deactiviated after prolonged inactivity?)
GSM Timer/Switch, STG£85 from Amazon, or STG£95 from the  with 2yr warranty.
Looks straightforward from the manual. I'm not well up on electrics but I presume an electrician will be able to figure out the wiring diagram on the last page of the manual and connect inline with the fused spur to my heating system. I've contacted an electrician to see if he'll do the job.
I reckon this could be bought and installed for < €200 and running costs of < €5/yr for SIM.

Anyone have any thoughts?


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## RichInSpirit (4 Sep 2014)

Hi Dub Nerd. I've had one Tesco number expire after a year, but I think there was zero credit in it.


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## dub_nerd (4 Sep 2014)

Thanks RIS. I've discovered the device I'm looking at has a six-week "SIM active" function ... if you don't use it, it will send a text message every six weeks to avoid operator deactivation. Might up the running costs from €1 to €2 per year. 

However, an additional hiccup is the manual says it needs a "2G SIM" ... I didn't realise SIMs changed between 2G and 3G? Have asked the manufacturer for advice.


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## SparkRite (4 Sep 2014)

dub_nerd said:


> Thanks RIS. I've discovered the device I'm looking at has a six-week "SIM active" function ... if you don't use it, it will send a text message every six weeks to avoid operator deactivation. Might up the running costs from €1 to €2 per year.
> 
> However, an additional hiccup is the manual says it needs a "2G SIM" ... I didn't realise SIMs changed between 2G and 3G? Have asked the manufacturer for advice.




Tesco Mobile credit does expire, after 24 months AFAIK.

Also, AFAIK, any sim that works with 3G will also work with 2G, EDGE, etc........


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## dub_nerd (4 Sep 2014)

SparkRite said:


> Tesco Mobile credit does expire, after 24 months AFAIK.
> 
> Also, AFAIK, any sim that works with 3G will also work with 2G, EDGE, etc........



Ta SparkRite, that's good news. I think I can live with €5 every two years. 

And the manufacturer got back to me to say there's a 99% chance any SIM will work. (He didn't say what the 1% chance is, but I'll take the risk).

Just waiting for the electrician to reply now.

EDIT: Found this in Tesco Mobile general Ts & Cs ... no mention of credit expiring except in case of non-use for six months: 



*8.	Account Validity and Mobile Number Reclaim*


(a)  Your Tesco Mobile phone number and SIM Card is valid  and will remain active for as long as you are using your Mobile Phone  regularly.
(b)  If you do not make a Credit Top Up to your Account, or  use your SIM Card for 6 months, your Account and any outstanding Credit  on your Account will be suspended.  If this happens you may reactivate  your Account by calling Customer Care. We will reactivate your Account,  and any previously unused credit you had on your Account will be  available to you again.
(c)  After your Account has been suspended, you have a  further 6 months during which you can have it reactivated by calling  Customer Care.  If you do not ask us to reactivate your Account we will  assume that you no longer need it (as you will not have used it for 12  months) and it will be fully deactivated. This means your SIM Card will  no longer work, you will lose any unused Credit you may have had, and  your Mobile Phone number can be claimed back by Tesco Mobile and given  to another customer.


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## SparkRite (4 Sep 2014)

dub_nerd said:


> Ta SparkRite, that's good news. I think I can live with €5 every two years.
> 
> And the manufacturer got back to me to say there's a 99% chance any SIM will work. (He didn't say what the 1% chance is, but I'll take the risk).
> 
> ...



Very pertinent info here dub_nerd, from a Tesco Mobile Rep.

http://www.boards.ie/ttfthread/2057272398


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## dub_nerd (4 Sep 2014)

SparkRite said:


> Very pertinent info here dub_nerd, from a Tesco Mobile Rep.
> 
> http://www.boards.ie/ttfthread/2057272398



Thanks a mil' SparkRite. So a text is enough to keep the SIM alive, and my device will send them every six weeks. After that, it's seems to be just a matter of topping up by a fiver every two years. That 24 month period doesn't appear in their terms and conditions, but the rep seemed fairly adamant about it, so I'll treat it as fact.

Just noticed your suggestive username and some other posts of yours ... are you a sparks? If so, would you like to comment on the very rough wiring diagram given in that GSM Switch's manual for a boiler setup? ...







Any reason why they show the switch wired across the thermostat? Implies that you want the heating on regardless of thermostat settings. I basically just want the heating to come on at whatever settings I've left it at. I already have complicated programmable zones etc. Would I be able to just literally power the device from the fused spur (the red and blue lines) and also connect the live from the fused spur across the switch (green lines) for a simple switch on/off.

The rest of my electrics are hidden away in a wall recess along with the underfloor heating manifold, and include wiring from individual room thermostats, wiring to zone actuator heads on the manifold, a controller box between all these wires, and a pump module which controls activation of the pump whenever any individual zone thermostat is calling for heat. I'd prefer not to have to insert the GSM switch in the midst of all this if it's possible ... took years to get the darn thing working properly in the first place. It would probably look something like this if it didn't look like forty plates of spaghetti flung in a bin:


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## SparkRite (4 Sep 2014)

Viewing this on my phone at the mo, so no lengthy answers.

Going by that diagram, the remote switch is no more than a thermostat override and in my reckoning should be connected across terminals 2 and 4 in the timer to achieve what you want.

In other words, a remote timer override / shunt.

Nice heating setup, BTW.


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## JohnJay (4 Sep 2014)

SparkRite said:


> Viewing this on my phone at the mo, so no lengthy answers.
> 
> Going by that diagram, the remote switch is no more than a thermostat override and in my reckoning should be connected across terminals 2 and 4 in the timer to achieve what you want.
> 
> ...



So this device only overrides the stat and not the timer? The timer would have to be left on constant?


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## dub_nerd (4 Sep 2014)

The device is no more than a remote controllable switch. I guess whether it can override the timer depends on features of the timer, rather than the device. In my case, simply switching on the power to the heating system would be completely adequate for my needs. I'd prefer not to have to connect it to a thermostat _or_ a timer. With UFH you wouldn't normally be timing it on and off.


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## SparkRite (4 Sep 2014)

dub_nerd said:


> The device is no more than a remote controllable switch. I guess whether it can override the timer depends on features of the timer, rather than the device. In my case, simply switching on the power to the heating system would be completely adequate for my needs. I'd prefer not to have to connect it to a thermostat _or_ a timer. With UFH you wouldn't normally be timing it on and off.




Assuming that your initial control of your heating system is as per the diagram, then, by far, the simplest method of implementing what you want is to wire your remote switch in parallel with the timer switch that controls your heating.

In the diagram the timer is simply a timed switch wired in series with a stat and AFAIK you want remote control of switching your heat on/off thus overriding your preprogrammed timer settings and therefore, to that end, it is simple to just parallel your remote controlled switch with your timer.

However, if on the other hand you wish to be able to turn your heat off, independent of your timer settings (say you went on holidays and forgot to turn off the heat) then you would wire the R/C switch in series with the timer control switched circuit. This would only allow you turn the heat OFF as when the R/C switch is in the ON position heating would be dependant on the timer settings as per norm.

Hope this makes some sense to you, either way its a piece of p..s.


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## SparkRite (4 Sep 2014)

JohnJay said:


> So this device only overrides the stat and not the timer? The timer would have to be left on constant?



That's what the diagram shows, a bit silly methinks.

But simple to rewire to a more practical operation.


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## dub_nerd (5 Sep 2014)

SparkRite said:


> Assuming that your initial control of your heating system is as per the diagram, then, by far, the simplest method of implementing what you want is to wire your remote switch in parallel with the timer switch that controls your heating.
> 
> In the diagram the timer is simply a timed switch wired in series with a stat and AFAIK you want remote control of switching your heat on/off thus overriding your preprogrammed timer settings and therefore, to that end, it is simple to just parallel your remote controlled switch with your timer.
> 
> ...



Thanks a mil' for that. But no, unfortunately my initial system looks nothing like the diagram. I don't have the normal looking timer setup. My timing is via a pair of hi-tech-looking detachable programmable digital clocks/controllers connected to room stats (one for upstairs, one for down. In fact, the fused spur is the only common point between the upstairs  and downstairs which are otherwise two completely independent systems  with their own wiring, stats, manifold etc.). But fortunately I don't want to override any timers or thermostats, just literally switch the whole thing on an off. That's pretty much the only thing I do anyway -- apart from twiddling a room thermostat on the very odd occasion I never have cause to touch anything else.  I think that makes it like your second scenario -- just wire the switch in series with the circuit. What I want is as simple as this:






So I know how the power to the switch gets wired. Can I literally just connect the switch itself in series with the live from the 3A spur as shown?


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## Dinny (5 Sep 2014)

I got a Texton unit at the start of this year. Works great for me, they have their own app which sends text messages to it or you can just send the text message yourself direct, I think you can use it for most functions.

We have it installed in a holiday home and find it excellent. Great to have the heating on a couple of hours before we go down 

It cost €154 including tesco sim and delivery. No other costs going forward except top ups for the sim. My electrician wired it in no problem and he had never seen one before

I have no involvement with this company except a happy customer


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## SparkRite (5 Sep 2014)

dub_nerd said:


> Thanks a mil' for that. But no, unfortunately my initial system looks nothing like the diagram. I don't have the normal looking timer setup. My timing is via a pair of hi-tech-looking detachable programmable digital clocks/controllers connected to room stats (one for upstairs, one for down. In fact, the fused spur is the only common point between the upstairs  and downstairs which are otherwise two completely independent systems  with their own wiring, stats, manifold etc.). But fortunately I don't want to override any timers or thermostats, just literally switch the whole thing on an off. That's pretty much the only thing I do anyway -- apart from twiddling a room thermostat on the very odd occasion I never have cause to touch anything else.  I think that makes it like your second scenario -- just wire the switch in series with the circuit. What I want is as simple as this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If you want, as you say, ON/OFF R/C of the heating (regardless of timer/s settings) then it stands to reason that you MUST override the timer/s.
This is done on many occasions in control circuits and is extremely common. Even if you have multiple timers and just one R/C switch then the use of a simple relay/contactor can be employed to override all timers.

One problem with your revised wiring diagram is that when OFF the power to the timer is also cut, therefore it may adversely affect the timer programs. Also, as I said before, this will only allow you to turn the heating OFF and not ON unless the timer is also set to ON.

I really do not see why you are so wary, (afraid  ?) to wire it in parallel with the timer switches, thus allowing you to remotely turn ON/OFF the heat at will (as long as the timer/s is set to off). This is the easiest and closest  as far as I can see, to what you are trying to achieve.

If you need full R/C, ie. ON/OFF regardless of timer setting then a two way (changeover) relay/contactor must be used, as your R/C switch is just a single way, also your timer/s must also be capable of two way switching.

To put this in "laymans" terms, liken it to upstairs/downstairs landing light, as in, regardless of the state of one switch (timer/s) the other (your R/C switch) can always turn the light (heat) ON/OFF.

Again, quite basic to implement, just a bit more kit and installation time.


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## dub_nerd (5 Sep 2014)

Dinny said:


> I got a Texton unit at the start of this year. Works great for me...



Thanks Dinny. I'd probably have gone for TextOn except their website is so bad and didn't give me a good feeling. Have ordered the device I mentioned from the UK instead (which is a fair bit cheaper too).


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## dub_nerd (5 Sep 2014)

SparkRite said:


> If you want, as you say, ON/OFF R/C of the heating (regardless of timer/s settings) then it stands to reason that you MUST override the timer/s.
> This is done on many occasions in control circuits and is extremely common. Even if you have multiple timers and just one R/C switch then the use of a simple relay/contactor can be employed to override all timers.
> 
> One problem with your revised wiring diagram is that when OFF the power to the timer is also cut, therefore it may adversely affect the timer programs. Also, as I said before, this will only allow you to turn the heating OFF and not ON unless the timer is also set to ON.
> ...



Multiple reasons I don't want to muck with the timers. I don't really use them, so there's no need. They are battery backed up, so they don't suffer from having the power cut for months at a time. The main reason is that the concept of timing with underfloor heating is different -- the timer can't actually switch the system on or off. It can only switch it to "setback mode" which means running at a reduced temperature (usually 2 - 4 degrees lower for nighttime ).

Apart from that, you are expected to leave the thing running all the time (except for long absences which I have a lot of). If the ambient temperature is lower than the setback, the system will come on full blast when you switch it on, regardless of how the timer is set (since it can take 24 hours to reach the set temp). So there just isn't any normal on/off timing concept at all, and definitely no need for any override.

The final reason for my wariness/scariness is that the UFH control cabinet is a mass of completely undocumented wiring which -- due to getting  shafted by a combination of builder and supplier -- I have no way of getting service on. Figured out enough of it myself to fix some burned out actuator heads with replacements I managed to source from Germany, but there's no way I'm letting anyone else go mucking with it, given the amount of problems I've had. So even if it were possible or desirable (and it isn't), I really don't want any functionality other than the equivalent of flicking the big red switch 

On the other hand, thanks for the info which is good to know regardless.  But going back to my question -- is wiring the switch in series with the live from the fused spur the way to go for what I want?


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## SparkRite (5 Sep 2014)

dub_nerd said:


> Multiple reasons I don't want to muck with the timers. I don't really use them, so there's no need. They are battery backed up, so they don't suffer from having the power cut for months at a time. The main reason is that the concept of timing with underfloor heating is different -- the timer can't actually switch the system on or off. It can only switch it to "setback mode" which means running at a reduced temperature (usually 2 - 4 degrees lower for nighttime ).
> 
> Apart from that, you are expected to leave the thing running all the time (except for long absences which I have a lot of). If the ambient temperature is lower than the setback, the system will come on full blast when you switch it on, regardless of how the timer is set (since it can take 24 hours to reach the set temp). So there just isn't any normal on/off timing concept at all, and definitely no need for any override.
> 
> ...



Ok, I see now what you are at and more importantly your reluctance to mess with the set-up, so really the first wiring diagram you posted had no reflection whatsoever for your set-up.

If the fused spur is the feed for the complete heating control circuit ie. as you say, "the big red (Frankenstein, my word) switch", then wiring the R/C switch in series with the live (assuming the switch can handle the rated current) WILL give you a "remote big red switch".


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## dub_nerd (5 Sep 2014)

Thanks again. Sorry for any confusion with the first diagram -- that was a direct copy and paste from the manual for the GSM switch. (I know it looks amateurish enough that I could've done it myself ... they don't seem too hot on documentation  ). Btw, although I like to understand what's going on, and could do the job myself at a pinch, I _will_ be paying an electrician to do it. Better safe than sorry.

Have ordered the switch from UK and a Tesco mobile SIM -- both, apparently, shipping already. Will let you know how I get on.


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## SparkRite (5 Sep 2014)

dub_nerd said:


> Ta. Sorry for any confusion with the first diagram -- that was a direct copy and paste from the manual for the GSM switch. (I know it looks amateurish enough that I could've done it myself ... they don't seem too hot on documentation  ).
> 
> Have ordered the switch from UK and a Tesco mobile SIM -- both, apparently, shipping already. Will let you know how I get on.




Grand, do let us know.


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## Squonk (18 Sep 2014)

Nest Labs brings ‘intelligent’ thermostat to Irish market

No subscription
Thermostat: €219 inc VAT 
Nest is giving everyone who buys a thermostat between September 18th -24th free installation (normally costs €120)

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/...elligent-thermostat-to-irish-market-1.1932209


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## serotoninsid (18 Sep 2014)

Squonk said:


> Nest Labs brings ‘intelligent’ thermostat to Irish market
> 
> No subscription
> Thermostat: €219 inc VAT
> ...



I wonder how this works if you need zoned thermostats i.e. one for upstairs circuit and one for downstairs circuit?

Will they install 2x stats?  Will only one nest unit be needed?


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## serotoninsid (18 Sep 2014)

Answering my own query - it looks like if you have zoned heating, then it's 1 nest thermostat per unit. Not as cost effective as I'd like (and very expensive for those of you with multiple zones) but it seems like a good system otherwise so going to go for it.



(ps. they don't accept visa debit card!)


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## dub_nerd (17 Oct 2014)

Finally got around to unwrapping my "GSM Activate" switch and buying a Tesco mobile SIM card. I tested it standalone, and it does exactly what it says on the tin. Looks like simplicity itself. Here's some of the text messages I've been sending it (commands in green, responses in grey), but I have shortcuts set up so I can just type hxo, hxf, hxt, hxs for heating on, off, 18-hr timer, status:








The last fly in the ointment is that, in classic Irish style, no electrician has got back to me about installing it ... probably too small a job, too far away.

So I'm going to illegally wire it myself ... like this:






The switch on the left is the existing "big red switch". The new DPDT switch (which I will label "GSM off/on") will let me short-circuit the GSM switch as if it wasn't there. When it's _on_, the system will then only come on and off in response to GSM commands. Looks easy enough. If nothing else I've learned a few new words of electrician-speak. I will post about my success if I am not fried in my attempts.


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## SparkRite (17 Oct 2014)

Remind me again Dub what degree of control you are seeking to obtain with the GSM R/C switch.

I'm just trying to work out why you need the "extra" DP switch.


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## dub_nerd (17 Oct 2014)

SparkRite said:


> Remind me again Dub what degree of control you are seeking to obtain with the GSM R/C switch.
> 
> I'm just trying to work out why you need the "extra" DP switch.



I literally just want to be able to switch the whole thing on and off. The reason for the second switch is that otherwise the heating can't be switched on without the GSM Switch being activated. The GSM Switch has no buttons or external controls for manual switching. What if I lose my phone or there is no cell coverage while I am in the house? -- I wouldn't be able to turn the heating on or off. So I need to be able to switch to "manual operation". (I'd love if I _didn't_ need the second switch -- having quite some trouble sourcing a normal looking DPDT switch for mains voltage online ... any suggestions?).


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## SparkRite (17 Oct 2014)

dub_nerd said:


> I literally just want to be able to switch the whole thing on and off. The reason for the second switch is that otherwise the heating can't be switched on without the GSM Switch being activated. The GSM Switch has no buttons or external controls for manual switching. What if I lose my phone or there is no cell coverage while I am in the house? -- I wouldn't be able to turn the heating on or off. So I need to be able to switch to "manual operation". (I'd love if I _didn't_ need the second switch -- having quite some trouble sourcing a normal looking DPDT switch for mains voltage online ... any suggestions?).




What's wrong with "the big red switch" for on/off when you're in the house?

Basically all the DPDT switch is doing is overiding the R/C switch, so you will have to remember to switch it out everytime you are going out and you want R/C of the heating. I fully understand where you are coming from re. no phone coverage, but that surely defeats the purpose of the GSM switch.

Just wire it so that the common and normally closed are in circuit so when it is off (at rest) the heat will be on, and should the GSM switch fail, and I'm assuming it will reset or return to default if it does, then at least you will have heat.

Also a single pole 2 way (change over) switch would do you, if you really want to be able overide the GSM switch, just run the live to the GSM switch and loop out to your SP (L1) switch and from that (common) out to your heat and , hey presto, manual overide. 
I just feel that having to remember to switch it to "remote" when you  go out somehow defeats the purpose of having the R/C option in the first place.

See my CRAP drawing,  I didn't bother signing up, rushing, so its in some album or other.

http://imgur.com/a/r6rT9


PS. Just going out the door...........Even a single one way SW would do you, just put it across the common and the normally open of the GSM and mark it "MAN/REMOTE".


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## dub_nerd (17 Oct 2014)

I'll try and address in logical order.... P.S. don't underestimate my cluelessness when it comes to electrics. 



SparkRite said:


> should the GSM switch  fail ... I'm assuming it will reset or return to default if it does,  then at least you will have heat.



Yes. I tested that. It has to be powered to connect the CO and NO. If it is powered down it reverts to connecting CO and NC.



SparkRite said:


> What's wrong with "the big red switch" for on/off when you're in the house?
> 
> Basically all the DPDT switch is doing is overiding the R/C switch, so you will have to remember to switch it out everytime you are going out and you want R/C of the heating. I fully understand where you are coming from re. no phone coverage, but that surely defeats the purpose of the GSM switch.



I presume you mean connecting the GSM into the circuit _before_ the big red switch. My misgiving about that was that the GSM switch is then powered unless you switch it off at the fuseboard. Is that safe? If so, it certainly sounds like the simplest and most effective approach. But surely it defeats the idea of having an isolator switch?



SparkRite said:


> Just wire it so that the common and normally closed are in circuit so  when it is off (at rest) the heat will be on, and should the GSM switch  fail, and I'm assuming it will reset or return to default if it does,  then at least you will have heat.



I don't think I get this. Doesn't that mean the heat is on whether the GSM relay is on or off? Unless you mean that the heat is on when the GSM relay is off _and_ the big red switch is on. Maybe that could work (although compared to your first idea I still have to remember to switch the big red switch _off_ when leaving, and there is still no isolation).



SparkRite said:


> Also a single pole 2 way (change over) switch would do you, if you  really want to be able overide the GSM switch, just run the live to the  GSM switch and loop out to your SP (L1) switch and from that (common)  out to your heat and , hey presto, manual overide.
> I just feel that having to remember to switch it to "remote" when you   go out somehow defeats the purpose of having the R/C option in the first  place.
> 
> See my CRAP drawing,  I didn't bother signing up, rushing, so its in some album or other.
> ...



Yes, that looks like it would work, and using a simpler switch. The reason behind my DPDT switch was that the GSM Switch is totally isolated when off, i.e. no live connection. I'm probably just being scared of my own wiring. 



SparkRite said:


> PS. Just going out the door...........Even a single one way SW would do  you, just put it across the common and the normally open of the GSM and  mark it "MAN/REMOTE".



That makes total sense. For some reason it never occurred to me to use the GSM device's own two-way switching. I've shown the additional switch across NC and NO below but it's the same thing. That switch is closed for manual operation and open for remote operation. Does this look right? It certainly makes the switch wiring trivial compared to my earlier Rube Goldberg machine. Also I keep my proper isolation switch. And I can leave the whole thing GSM operated all the time (unless I need to switch to manual in case of loss of phone coverage while I'm in the house).


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## SparkRite (20 Oct 2014)

dub_nerd said:


> That makes total sense. For some reason it never occurred to me to use the GSM device's own two-way switching. I've shown the additional switch across NC and NO below *but it's the same thing.* That switch is closed for manual operation and open for remote operation. Does this look right? It certainly makes the switch wiring trivial compared to my earlier Rube Goldberg machine. Also I keep my proper isolation switch. And I can leave the whole thing GSM operated all the time (unless I need to switch to manual in case of loss of phone coverage while I'm in the house).




No, its not quite the same thing, in your drawing you are still relying on the relay contact from common to N/C and then through your switch to heat, whereas if you go across common to N/O (heat) with switch, then you are not dependant on relay contact.
I still think it somewhat defeats the purpose to have to remember to switch over from manual to remote everytime you go out and want to have R/C.

BTW have you checked the load capacity of the R/C to make sure it can carry the load OK. Also what is the rating of the MCB/Fuse feeding the "big red switch" ?


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## dub_nerd (20 Oct 2014)

SparkRite said:


> No, its not quite the same thing, in your drawing you are still relying on the relay contact from common to N/C and then through your switch to heat, whereas if you go across common to N/O (heat) with switch, then you are not dependant on relay contact.


Fair enough. Switch would have to be faulty for it to be a problem but I'll wire it from CO to NO anyway.



SparkRite said:


> I still think it somewhat defeats the purpose to have to remember to  switch over from manual to remote everytime you go out and want to have  R/C.


But I don't think there's an alternative that doesn't have the GSM Switch always on, without any switch except the fuseboard tripswitch. Sounds dangerous. The way I'm proposing I can leave it switched to "remote" all the time and use text messaging even in the house. So it will effectively always be on remote, I won't have to switch when leaving.



SparkRite said:


> BTW have you checked the load capacity of the R/C to make sure it can  carry the load OK. Also what is the rating of the MCB/Fuse feeding the  "big red switch" ?


The switch is rated for 10 amps. My heating is only a couple of pumps and some electronics -- I don't think it could be drawing anything remotely like a couple of kW, probably a small fraction of that. I don't know what the fuse rating is, but I'll check.

Thanks for the thoughts (and the switch simplification earlier, which makes things much easier).


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## dub_nerd (16 Dec 2014)

The existing double pole heating system switch is wired a little more complicatedly than I was expecting. Here is it from outside and inside:









Schematically it looks like this (markings are taken from the switch itself, and shown in approximate positions). There are also similar neutral wires, omitted for clarity (2 "in" wires connected to a single terminal, 1 "out" wire separate):






I'm a bit confused about how there can be two "in" cables and a single "out". Is the "in" not the power supply from the fuse board?

I can wire my "outs" as originally planned, but I'm worried I'm misunderstanding something.


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## Shane007 (16 Dec 2014)

Most likely it is just carrying on to feed another live in and is just tailed from that spur.


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## SparkRite (16 Dec 2014)

dub_nerd said:


> The existing double pole heating system switch is wired a little more complicatedly than I was expecting. Here is it from outside and inside:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The 2 "ins", as you call them, are standard enough and are just loop on feeds to some other circuit/s, maybe control valves, thermostats,pumps, etc.
Just make sure that you keep them together when making your changes and do not mix them up with the switch wires. A little bit of tape will be handy here to mark them or keep them together.


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## dub_nerd (16 Dec 2014)

Thanks guys, makes sense. I don't think I need to touch the "ins" at all, I just need to take off an additional neutral out. Only the live out gets replaced, with the wiring to my new switch being inserted in between.


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## dub_nerd (17 Dec 2014)

Well, I've finally done it. Just turned my heating on by text message for the first time. The arrangement isn't the prettiest for now, but I have plans to tidy it up:






GSM switch at upper right is wired across main heating switch at left. The switch hanging down from the grey wire switches between "manual" and "text message" control. The pair of light switches at centre are on the same backing box as the heating switch, so I can neaten things by replacing them with a triple, one of which will replace the hangy down switch. The GSM switch will have its cover put on and be mounted properly to the wall.


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## SparkRite (17 Dec 2014)

Well done.


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## dub_nerd (17 Dec 2014)

SparkRite said:


> Well done.


Wouldn't have been able to do it without the help on here, so thanks very much.


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## Scally (12 Jan 2015)

Hi
I wish to hook my heating up to an sms unit myself.i have the same apt timer shown in the photo above. Does the sms unit override the timer?
I went onto the texton side but cant see any diagrams on how to wire it.does any one have one or any idear how its done


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## dub_nerd (12 Jan 2015)

Which photo above are you referring to, Scally?


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## Scally (12 Jan 2015)

dub_nerd said:


> Well, I've finally done it. Just turned my heating on by text message for the first time. The arrangement isn't the prettiest for now, but I have plans to tidy it up:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Does this by pass the clock? I have the same one.does the timer have to be set to on all the time than you text on & the heating comes on.please help.new to this


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## dub_nerd (12 Jan 2015)

Yes, the clock in that picture doesn't actually work, never has. But in any case, the GSM switch is just wired across the big red on/off switch on the left.

The GSM switch I used is this one. I used the 240V mains voltage version. However the manual for the 12V one shows wiring for a boiler. I didn't particularly understand it but in my case I only wanted control over the on/off switch which was comparatively easy to wire up.

My system (underfloor heating) is designed to be on all the time ... the timer just switches it to a higher/lower setting. So there was no need to bypass a timer. It looks from the wiring in the manual that you normally would have to. I imagine an electrician would know how to do it, but I couldn't get one so was on my own.


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## Scally (12 Jan 2015)

The photo with the apt timer clock & the gsm unit sitting on top.i have to wait over a hundred seconds to reply/post.dont know why.doing this off my phone


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## dub_nerd (12 Jan 2015)

Scally said:


> The photo with the apt timer clock & the gsm unit sitting on top.i have to wait over a hundred seconds to reply/post.dont know why.doing this off my phone


Updated my previous post ... See above. (Sorry, typing slowly on iPad here).


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## Leo (13 Jan 2015)

Scally said:


> Does this by pass the clock? I have the same one.does the timer have to be set to on all the time than you text on & the heating comes on.please help.new to this



You can wire the GSM unit in parallel to the existing timer, that way you can control it with either the timer, or the GSM unit. If either are set to 'on', the heating will run, so you get the best of both worlds where you can use your normal timed settings, but also turn it on remotely if you're returning at a different time.


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## Scally (14 Jan 2015)

Leo said:


> You can wire the GSM unit in parallel to the existing timer, that way you can control it with either the timer, or the GSM unit. If either are set to 'on', the heating will run, so you get the best of both worlds where you can use your normal timed settings, but also turn it on remotely if you're returning at a different time.



Is there a diagram on how to do this please?
Or does any have a diagram or photo on how to do the Texton one ?
 Regard 
SCALLY


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## dub_nerd (15 Jan 2015)

Scally said:


> Is there a diagram on how to do this please?


There's one in the manuals I linked from post #61.


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