# Person of diminished intelligence" taking out loans?



## marvinsa (18 Jan 2007)

Hi all,
I would really appreciate it if anyone could help me or give me some advice. A member if my family (my brother in his 20s) is slightly "slow" but not in a very noticeable way, unless you know him well.  He is working in a normal job, living in an apartment in town, earning a living, and getting by.  However, he is not really capable of managing money.  What he does with his salary is his own business (it's usually spent half an hour after it hits his bank account!) but that's his own affair.  However, he has now discovered the joys of overdrafts, credit cards and bank loans, without fully understanding that he has to repay them at some stage.  While some of you may be smiling, thinking "we're all the same", I am really worried that he will get into serious difficulty as his plan is to go from bank to bank taking out more and more loans.  He has gone mad on spending over the past couple of months, and on looking through his bank & credit card statements, I can now see why.  Could anyone please tell me if there is some way I can get banks etc to stop extending these types of credit to him?  

Thanks in advance.


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## Howitzer (18 Jan 2007)

There was a story similar to this in the UK a few months back, the individual got into serious debt but the institutions kept lending the money. The regulator eventually wrote off the depts as the lenders had been negligent but not after a serious amount of heartache. I'll try and find a link, it was on bbc.co.uk


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## PM1234 (18 Jan 2007)

You could investigate the possibility of becoming his Power of Attorney if he agrees. Your brother's doctor may need to be involved to determine if he is competent to handle his financial affairs.


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## Slaphead (18 Jan 2007)

PM1234 said:


> You could investigate the possibility of becoming his Power of Attorney if he agrees. Your brother's doctor may need to be involved to determine if he is competent to handle his financial affairs.



You can get outsiders to do this, best if its not a family member doing it as it'll only cause friction and resentment.


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## marvinsa (19 Jan 2007)

Thanks for your replies. I will do some followup on them.


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## ClubMan (19 Jan 2007)

marvinsa said:


> A member if my family (my brother in his 20s) is slightly "slow" but not in a very noticeable way, unless you know him well.


What do you mean by "slow"? What is the medical opinion on him/his condition (if any)? If he has not been assessed and a determination made that he is in any way mentally handicapped in incapable of handling his own (financial or other) affairs then surely there is nothing that anybody else can legally do to circumscribe his actions?


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## pat127 (19 Jan 2007)

ClubMan said:


> .... If he has not been assessed and a determination made that he is in any way mentally handicapped in incapable of handling his own (financial or other) affairs then surely there is nothing that anybody else can legally do to circumscribe his actions?


 
If that is the case then if he borrows from a lending institution it's hard to see how it could be described as 'negligent' as long as it applies its normal lending criteria.

For what it's worth, OP, the Irish Bankers' Federation in Nassau St could give you a view on the feasibility, if any, of stopping the Banks from lending money to your brother. Contact on 671 53 11.


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## ClubMan (19 Jan 2007)

Well intentioned and as all the original poster presumably is this case points up some pretty serious/fundamental personal privacy and civil liberties issues in my opinion. If I decided to go mad tomorrow and blow my money and incur a load of debt then I can't see what it has to do with anybody else, least of all my siblings.



marvinsa said:


> on looking through his bank & credit card statements, I can now see why.


Did you get his permission to do this? Has he asked you for assistance/advice?


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## Guest111 (19 Jan 2007)

ClubMan said:


> Well intentioned and as all the original poster presumably is this case points up some pretty serious/fundamental personal privacy and civil liberties issues in my opinion. If I decided to go mad tomorrow and blow my money and incur a load of debt then I can't see what it has to do with anybody else, least of all my siblings.


 
I can see where you are coming from but family members have a duty to look out for each other. 
One has to be of sane mind to enter into a contract...I believe the lending institutions could do more in cases like this.
Bookies run self-exclusion programmes, sometimes at the behest of close relatives. Alcoholics can be barred from licensed premises.
Why can't people who are "addicted to debt", a not uncommon phenomenon, be treated similarly? 
Especially when the individual is less streetwise than the average person for whatever reason.
I admire this person for trying to help their brother, as I'm sure you do too. I don't think privacy rules should block these efforts.


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## ClubMan (19 Jan 2007)

Andy Doof said:


> I can see where you are coming from but family members have a duty to look out for each other.


I fundamentally disagree - unless it involves individuals who have been assessed by the relevant medical or psychiatric professionals and clearly determined to be incapable of looking after themselves or their affairs (in part or full).


> One has to be of sane mind to enter into a contract...


 A "bit slow" doesn't necessarily mean "insane"! 


> Especially when the individual is less streetwise than the average person for whatever reason.


 I completely disagree that people should be able to circumscribe the activities of others (e.g. their siblings) if they have subjectively decided that they are "a bit slow" or "less streetwise than average".


> I admire this person for trying to help their brother, as I'm sure you do too. I don't think privacy rules should block these efforts.


 Not necessarily. There isn't enough detailed information (e.g. about the brother's condition - if any) to say at the moment.


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## Guest111 (19 Jan 2007)

I see exactly where you're coming from regarding privacy and interference.
However, we all know people who are a bit simple, not the full shilling, a little slow, whatever society deems the most PC term for it. They deserve to live full and free lives but also deserve to be protected by siblings, friends, or whoever is a little bit more streetwise.
On a more general point I don't believe banks or anyone should allow anyone run up massive debts in a reckless manner.
Debt is like a drug for some people, especially in this country.
I'm not proposing some kind of KGB debt observation system...except for my partner!


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## ontour (19 Jan 2007)

Clubman,
I hope that you are playing devil's advocate with the "none of anyone else's business". The fact is that most things that we do impact on other people. The fact is that if the OP's brother ended up out on the street due to debts...most people would expect the family to help that person and would be surprised if they did not.

The fact that the OP is looking out for the best interest of their brother and is looking for advice before taking any steps is to be commended.


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## ClubMan (19 Jan 2007)

ontour said:


> Clubman,
> I hope that you are playing devil's advocate with the "none of anyone else's business".


No - grown adults who have not otherwise been deemed through medical/psychological assessment to be incapable of looking after their own affairs should be free to act of their own free will even if it means getting into debt or doing other things that siblings and others might not like.


> The fact that the OP is looking out for the best interest of their brother and is looking for advice before taking any steps is to be commended.


That really depends on whether the brother has actually been deemed to be incapable of looking after his own affairs and has given others permission to look at his private correspondence etc. If not then far from being commendable it is totally objectionable and possibly illegal.


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## moneyhoney (19 Jan 2007)

As far as I know, there is a legal definition of having the 'capacity to enter contract' - how this is determined I am not so sure. Perhaps a solicitor could advise the OP.


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## phoenix_n (19 Jan 2007)

I would have to agree. If we work on the assumption that his brother is of diminished ability, then to provide him with possible actions is very helpful. The medical profession, civil law etc is there to protect the brother should the OP be wrong in his assessment.



ontour said:


> Clubman,
> I hope that you are playing devil's advocate with the "none of anyone else's business". The fact is that most things that we do impact on other people. The fact is that if the OP's brother ended up out on the street due to debts...most people would expect the family to help that person and would be surprised if they did not.
> 
> The fact that the OP is looking out for the best interest of their brother and is looking for advice before taking any steps is to be commended.


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## Guest111 (19 Jan 2007)

Clubman, I think everyone is talking at cross purposes here.
Obviously, interfering in a perfectly sane and healthy person's private affairs is objectionable.
But life is not that simple...people cannot be branded "sane" or "insane" with no in between. If a person is a little simple, ideally they'd give power of attorney to a more clued in relative. But if they don't, surely it would be irresponsible not to act out of love/compassion.
Again, on a more general point I don't see why banks couldn't speak to relatives if and only if they had "reasonable grounds" to be concerned.
My bank manager contacted me once about a small student loan my brother had defaulted on...not to get payment, just out of concern about credit ratings etc.


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## moneyhoney (19 Jan 2007)

Andy Doof said:


> My bank manager contacted me once about a small student loan my brother had defaulted on...not to get payment, just out of concern about credit ratings etc.



Em, I may be wrong here but unless you were guarantor on your brother's loan your bank manager was in no way entitled to contact you about it and that is a serious breach of confidentiality.


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## Guest111 (19 Jan 2007)

moneyhoney said:


> Em, I may be wrong here but unless you were guarantor on your brother's loan your bank manager was in no way entitled to contact you about it and that is a serious breach of confidentiality.


 
Of course you're right.
But is it better to be with the faceless corporate entity type bank most people are with nowadays or one where your whole family conduct their business and where you only deal with the manager?
Common sense should prevail


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## annR (19 Jan 2007)

> However, he has now discovered the joys of overdrafts, credit cards and bank loans, without fully understanding that he has to repay them at some stage


 
If you take the OPs post at face value which I did, he isn't capable of understanding the terms of these contracts and therefore entering into them.  He would of course need to be officially diagnosed as such to make any interference legal - I guess that's what the OP is asking - how to go about it.



> If I decided to go mad tomorrow and blow my money and incur a load of debt then I can't see what it has to do with anybody else, least of all my siblings.


 
Well if I went mad tomorrow I would like to think that my siblings would protect me.


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## Guest111 (19 Jan 2007)

I'd just like to clarify my brother is not "of diminished intelligence"!

He was just financially reckless as a student...he's actually an accountant now which never ceases to amaze me.


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## raindog (19 Jan 2007)

can really understand your worry marvinsa, and can understand other persons concerns about civil liberties also. a lot depends on where on on the "diminished intelligence" scale you would place your brother if he has come through some of the special education schools maybe an after care worker or social worker could address the situation with him directly, this could also avoid family tensions regarding direct involvement but its hard to offer real advice without knowing your brother personally. hope it works out ok.


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