# Help with selling



## Thomas22 (9 Aug 2007)

Hi,
I need some advise on how best to proceed with the sale of my appartment. We want to start a family and are looking to move to something with a bit more space.

It is a 1 bed located in Dublin city centre. We have the property on the maket for more than 9 months now. Originally the first EA valued the property at €400k but we decided to advertise at €375k in order to generate interest.

Initally, there was quite alot of interest but nothing came of it and no offers were made. After a 3 months we had a meeting with the estate agent and they said that the market had slowed and that if we wanted to sell that we should reduce the price to generate interest. We reluctantly agreed to reduce the asking price to €350k.

3 months after this there was still very little interest so we decided to change estate agents. The new estate agent wanted us to list the apartment at €335k but we just felt that this was too low.

Another 3 months has passed and there has been absolutely no interest. But just last week we had a viewing and the couple put in an offer of €310k!!

We just don't know what to do. I think the offer is way way too low but the wife thinks we should accept it. We have been looking at 4 bed houses but I don't think we will be able to afford it unless we get at least €330k as we haven't much equity in the apartment.

What should we do wait or accept an offer that I know to be well below the value of the house? Please help us!!


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## PM1234 (9 Aug 2007)

Nine months is a long time for a citycentre apt to be on the market. I would guess that one bed apts are primarily aimed at FTBs and taking management fees into account, the asking price is high for your target market. 

How are other apts selling in your complex? Is yours in a similar condition to those that are selling (if any)? 

When you write about its 'worth' or its valuation, at the end of the day its only worth as much as somebody is willing to pay for it. What did you pay for the apt? How much is your current mortgage? Is there a chance if you accept the offer that the house you're looking at will go for a lower than asking price?


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## CCOVICH (9 Aug 2007)

Thomas22 said:


> We just don't know what to do. I think the offer is way way too low but the wife thinks we should accept it. We have been looking at 4 bed houses but I don't think we will be able to afford it unless we get at least €330k as we haven't much equity in the apartment.
> 
> What should we do wait or accept an offer that I know to be well below the value of the house? Please help us!!



The short answer is this-the 'value' of any property is only what someone is willing to pay for it-this could be more, or less, next week, next year etc.

You have had the property on the market for 9 months-how much longer are you prepared to wait?


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## doberden (9 Aug 2007)

If you're lucky the 4 beds that you're buying might come down in value also.


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## SidTheDweeb (9 Aug 2007)

To me this demonstrates that the 'shrewd' BTL brigade is in hiding, and not snapping up 'bargains' as some people would have us believe.

Surely a 1bed city centre apartment at €330k that has fallen €70k in value would be worth an investment if you believed the market was set to rebound.

OP, what is the location of the apartment and current likely rental potential (with reference to similar properties on daft) ?


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## beattie (9 Aug 2007)

SidTheDweeb said:


> Surely a 1bed city centre apartment at €330k that has fallen €70k in value would be worth an investment if you believed the market was set to rebound.


 
Therin lies the problem, as you say if an investor doesn't think there is a chance of capital appreciation returning then the yield from this asset would only be around 4% which is hardly enticing


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## Thomas22 (9 Aug 2007)

Read the Posting Guidelines and repost if you wish, but stay withing the Posting Guidelines.

Brendan


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## Thomas22 (9 Aug 2007)

SidTheDweeb said:


> To me this demonstrates that the 'shrewd' BTL brigade is in hiding, and not snapping up 'bargains' as some people would have us believe.
> 
> Surely a 1bed city centre apartment at €330k that has fallen €70k in value would be worth an investment if you believed the market was set to rebound.
> 
> OP, what is the location of the apartment and current likely rental potential (with reference to similar properties on daft) ?



There are some similar properties for rent on daft at just over €1,000.


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## PM1234 (9 Aug 2007)

The current bidders are probably expecting you to negotiate. They went in 40K under the current asking price. 

Have you put it on www.daft.ie  or similar sites and looked at selling it yourself? That would cut out estate agents fees and may generate more interest. The estate agent has probably already put it on the website though so I don't know if thats feasible at this stage.


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## mprsv1000 (10 Aug 2007)

Mabye if you "feel out" sellers of houses you are interested in, let them know you are interested, but as you have a property on the market for 9 months and have had to drop asking price by 90,000 under origional valuation (if your were to accept offer), are they wiling to budge on their price. If you are willing to accept 330,000 instead of 310,000 then they would only have to drop by about 20,000.........
As a new buyer in Ireland (returnrd from U.K) I would be looking at 3/4 bed also but while I have money form sale of house in U.K I have absoutely no intention of even making a "cheeky" offed on a property here, and from looking I have seen a shead load of 3/4 bed sitting on the market for over a year, so mabye they will be more responsive to a more reasonable offer from you thean they would have been 6 months ago.
I guess the point I'm trying to make is that if you can buy your desired home at a lower price they you can sell yours at a lover price also.
Best of luck.


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## MrMan (10 Aug 2007)

I wouldn't accept €310,000 if it is €90,000 below valuation. If the minimum you need is €330,000 then push your EA to write up a decent editorial on your property or ask is he doing any ads such as investor specials etc to create a bit of interest in his office. If you give him a target of €330,000 he should be able to work towards it you are only one bidder away from achieving a reasonable price I would say, so hold on for another 2 months anyway cause the next 3 weeks will be slow regardless


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## newkid30 (10 Aug 2007)

I think that is quite expensive for a 1 bed appartment in the city center.  In the current market it would want to be quite 'special' to get that price.  You can get really decent sized 2 beds in great nick for 350K on Cork St which is city centerish, so I think you are over pricing yourself.

Where is it located?


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## paddyodoors (10 Aug 2007)

MrMan said:


> I wouldn't accept €310,000 if it is €90,000 below valuation. If the minimum you need is €330,000 then push your EA to write up a decent editorial on your property or ask is he doing any ads such as investor specials etc to create a bit of interest in his office. If you give him a target of €330,000 he should be able to work towards it you are only one bidder away from achieving a reasonable price I would say, so hold on for another 2 months anyway cause the next 3 weeks will be slow regardless


 
90k below who's valuation - and at what point?

As already mentioned it is only worth what someone is willing to pay now - not what other properties may have acheived a year or 2 ago. 

bear in mind by waiting you face the risk of additional central bank rate increases, thereby reducing borrowing power of purchasers. so your 310 offer may drop to 300k.

To move you need €330k - I suggest that you go back to the couple with the €310k offer you have received and state that €330k is the price that will secure. I expect that the 310 offer is speculative, they will expect it to be pushed up.

Paddy


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## aircobra19 (10 Aug 2007)

newkid30 said:


> I think that is quite expensive for a 1 bed appartment in the city center.  In the current market it would want to be quite 'special' to get that price.  You can get really decent sized 2 beds in great nick for 350K on Cork St which is city centerish, so I think you are over pricing yourself.
> 
> Where is it located?



You've no idea if you are comparing like with like. How long does it take to walk from Cork St to O'Connell Bridge? 30mins? Also I wouldn't consider Cork St to be the best of areas either. Though its improved a lot in recent years.


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## Paulone (10 Aug 2007)

Courage!! You sound demoralised after 9 negative months of falling prices, little real interest and debates about 'undesirable' areas with 'desirable' blocks of apartments smacked into the middle of them!

There will still be buyers for this place even in the most depressed market. People seem to be starting to refine their expectations and the market seems to be a rougher place than it was even a year ago.

It sounds like there could usefully be a reappraisal done at this stage and - given the fact that there's a lot less wriggle-room in a variety of senses - the real, underlying important factors about what this process is about need to come to the fore and be implemented step-by-step, to achieve what is possible rather than what would be nice.

If its felt that the sale is the most important thing above all other objectives, then a cold hard look at the achieveable price today for the apartment is needed. Sounds like the valuations haven't proved very useful - a reasonable asking price can be easily reached by averaging those for equivalent apartments. A price higher than this will have to be justified with something special (extra car space, two balconies, is particularly roomy, is in Temple Bar etc.,) or else it'll have to come down.

Alternatively, waiting till later in the year might be possible in the hope of getting €330k if that interest rate rise doesn't happen in September. Perhaps changing agents again might result in better marketing of the place and a raft of new, loan approved buyers?

After some really bad experiences, I really believe in being quite demanding with EAs - get on their case and ask them to tell you all the reasons why there has not been more interest, what you can do to make your place more sellable/interesting and where/how is it listed? If you think that the EA is unmotivated or does not give you satisfactory answers, have no sympathy!


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## mprsv1000 (10 Aug 2007)

MrMan said:


> I wouldn't accept €310,000 if it is €90,000 below valuation.



Over the past decade people were happy to accept final bids way way over valuations,   showing they are just an estimate by an EA. How the tables have turned. Its (current) worth is governed by what someone in willing to pay, which of course could be more or less in a few months


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## newkid30 (10 Aug 2007)

aircobra19 said:


> You've no idea if you are comparing like with like. How long does it take to walk from Cork St to O'Connell Bridge? 30mins? Also I wouldn't consider Cork St to be the best of areas either. Though its improved a lot in recent years.


 
Most places in city center are not nice areas.  Parnell St, Pearse St, anywhere on Quays, christchurch, they are ALL rough!!

I did ask where it was located.


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## aircobra19 (10 Aug 2007)

newkid30 said:


> Most places in city center are not nice areas.  Parnell St, Pearse St, anywhere on Quays, christchurch, they are ALL rough!!
> 
> I did ask where it was located.



I wouldn't say all places are the same. There are definately better locations around the city, and closer to it, that would be have a higher market value.


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## MrMan (10 Aug 2007)

> Over the past decade people were happy to accept final bids way way over valuations, showing they are just an estimate by an EA. How the tables have turned. Its (current) worth is governed by what someone in willing to pay, which of course could be more or less in a few months



Yes you have highlighted that negative speculation is envogue at the moment, but the simplistic term 'its only worth what people are willing to pay' is over used and under thought. Yes they have offered €310,000, but they may be willing to pay in excess of that. A person should be able to gauge the saleability of their property going by recent (past 6 months) sales and also from speaking to auctioneers. I can only presume that everyone knows that a second hand house is priced as a close estimate to what the vendor should be making and the past decade proved on numerous occassions that the market was moving at a greater rate than most anticipated, hence sale price being way over asking. Back to the OP's dilemma, you only have to read through the threads on making bids etc to see that the advice going out is to bid 10-40% below asking for the simple reason you might get lucky, but if someone is serious about the property I would imagine you will see the bid creep up and like I said earlier the important thing is to get your EA to try and provide another bidder. Like others have said just stay on his case or contact other EA's to see if they have people on their books that would be interested in such properties as your own.


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## Thomas22 (10 Aug 2007)

newkid30 said:


> Most places in city center are not nice areas.  Parnell St, Pearse St, anywhere on Quays, christchurch, they are ALL rough!!
> 
> I did ask where it was located.



It's very close to Temple Bar


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## Thomas22 (10 Aug 2007)

Just to give an update, I've contacted the agent today and asked if the bid was serious.

The agent said she has dealt with the coule before and they have put in very low bids on a number of properties. If the seller didn't accept they just walked away! She thinks I should accept the current bid but I'm inclined to wait a bit longer and see if some comes in closer to the asking price.


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## PM1234 (10 Aug 2007)

Remember the EA is also trying to close the deal. The main thing is though to satisfy your own future needs. If that means accepting a lower bid in order to obtain your ideal home, then its worth having a serious think about it.  

Bear in mind though that your 'ideal home' is only bricks and mortar and you are sure to find another. Good luck with your decision.


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## mo3art (11 Aug 2007)

Have you taken into account that it's the "silly season" at the moment and there is a chance the market has quietened down until September?

FWIW There is normally a large drop off of prospective purchasers at this time of the year.

In the month of August, the canny purchaser would be making offers significantly below the asking price, particularly if the property has been on the market for a long time.

Also, have you tried to negotiate on the price of the house you want to acquire?  Is it a new or second hand property?


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## Maine (12 Aug 2007)

_


mo3art said:



			Have you taken into account that it's the "silly season" at the moment and there is a chance the market has quietened down until September?
		
Click to expand...

_


mo3art said:


> _FWIW There is normally a large drop off of prospective purchasers at this time of the year._


 
It should however be noted that the market went quiet August 2006 and has been headed one direction ever since.

There were were definitely offers made in August 06 that were seen as low at the time however would now be above going market rate

See if you can negotiate the offer upwards. Remember if you are trading up property falls are good.

ie selling a house for 315 that would have made 350 last year and buying a house for 630 that would have made 700 last year means you have gained €35k and also have less stamp duty to pay and lower EA fees.....you could be up by almost 50K !!

Rising property markets are good for 

1. Banks
2. Those exiting the market
3. Investors / speculators

It is definitely not good for FTBers or trader uppers


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## Raskolnikov (12 Aug 2007)

mo3art said:


> Have you taken into account that it's the "silly season" at the moment and there is a chance the market has quietened down until September?


I have to say I agree.

No one is currently buying, therefore buyers are taking advantage of desperate sellers putting in extremely low offers.

I would suggest that the seller should hold on until Autumn before accepting a lower price. You have a property in a prime location and the market sentiment should be improved by the time we get to the Autumn selling season.


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## CCOVICH (12 Aug 2007)

There may be no offers in the autumn.  One offer in 9 months isn't a good sign.  I can't see what conditions will have improved by the autumn other than the fact that people are back from holidays.


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## Jaid79 (12 Aug 2007)

CCOVICH said:


> There may be no offers in the autumn. One offer in 9 months isn't a good sign. I can't see what conditions will have improved by the autumn other than the fact that people are back from holidays.


 
It seems everybody wants to sell and nobody is buying at the moment. I think that situation is unlikely to change until after christmas.

My reasons for that call are that the intrest rates should have stablised by then. Also the government will have brought in a new TRS rate for FTB, to try and stimulate the market.

Jaid


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## shirley_d (12 Aug 2007)

To be honest, I would sell as what ever price you can get now, before the value drps lower. I would then rent somewhere for 6-12 months. But the time you look for your 3/4 bed house it will be worth less and you will get the most of your sale. This of course assumes the 3/4 bed will drop more than a years renting but I believe that is likely.


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## MrMan (13 Aug 2007)

Before adhering to further negative speculation, you should deal with the job in hand first. Why not tell the EA to go back and say that the offer is somewhat below your estimation but you may be willing to compromise if they are serious bidders. Don't tell him what your compromise is just see iff he can get them to make another bid. If like he says they 'always' bid very low then walk away then you can still change your mond and go back to accept. TBH they are looking for a very cheap buy, but the EA should be able to get them to got to €317,000 at least and then maybe look at a 'deal' on contents for cash. Either way if the EA can get some action going on your apt it will attract others. Don't accept the current offer is my opinion and the EA has as much as said that they are offering well below market value.


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## CCOVICH (13 Aug 2007)

MrMan said:


> TBH they are looking for a very cheap buy, but the EA should be able to get them to got to €317,000 at least and then maybe look at a 'deal' on contents for cash.


 
'Deal' is nothing more than a euphemism for tax evasion. Bad advice.

The topic of a separate 'deal' for contents has been discussed many times before, and the advice/opinion from our solicitor members is always the same-it's not a good idea.


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## comanche (13 Aug 2007)

MrMan said:


> Before adhering to further negative speculation, you should deal with the job in hand first. Why not tell the EA to go back and say that the offer is somewhat below your estimation but you may be willing to compromise if they are serious bidders. Don't tell him what your compromise is just see iff he can get them to make another bid. If like he says they 'always' bid very low then walk away then you can still change your mond and go back to accept. TBH they are looking for a very cheap buy, but the EA should be able to get them to got to €317,000 at least and then maybe look at a 'deal' on contents for cash. Either way if the EA can get some action going on your apt it will attract others. Don't accept the current offer is my opinion and the EA has as much as said that they are offering well below market value.



What has 317000 got to do with things? As for tax avoidance - well I don't think that’s gonna help anyone! 

Like all things, the buyer should have a price in mind and the seller a price in mind. If these prices differ and they can't come to an agreement then no deal. The vendor must realise the value of the property or they will get a bad deal, likewise the buyer. 

@OP - I suggest that you do your market research - look at what all similar properties are asking for and selling for. Talk to other EAs, nothing wrong with that, ask what similar properties have gone for in the last 3 months and price accordingly to sell. You have an offer in the door at the moment, get your EA to present the facts to the buyer and try to negotiate up.

After that all I can is good luck!


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## MrMan (13 Aug 2007)

> What has 317000 got to do with things?



I don't envisage them coming back in at a higher stamp duty threshold so €317,000 would seem obtainable.




> 'Deal' is nothing more than a euphemism for tax evasion. Bad advice.



Deal is exactly whay buyers look for when taking contents. For instance buyers generally when looking to leave the white goods would only want to pay for a small percentage of their true value, in this scenario the vendor could require a high to full value on conotents to beef up the price, I wasn't condoning cash 'under the table' just trying to offer viable solutions


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## CCOVICH (13 Aug 2007)

MrMan said:


> I don't envisage them coming back in at a higher stamp duty threshold so €317,000 would seem obtainable.


 
If the interested party is a FTB the [broken link removed].

Sorry if I misinterepreted your earlier post.


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## Thomas22 (13 Aug 2007)

Thanks to everyone for all the advise.

I've told the estate that we aren't interested in the €310k offer and told try and bargain them up to at least €320k. At this stage all I'm hoping for is that we can get enough to pay off the existing mortgage and any legal fees.

We've also contacted another 2 estate agents over the weekend and they are going to send someone out to value the place today or tommorow. Hopefully this might get some renewed interest in the place.


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## MrMan (13 Aug 2007)

> If the interested party is a FTB the threshold is not relevant anymore.
> Sorry if I misinterepreted your earlier post.



No worries, and I just presumed they were investors tbh, but looking back they could very well be crafty ftb's


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## Thomas22 (13 Aug 2007)

Thomas22 said:


> Thanks to everyone for all the advise.
> 
> I've told the estate that we aren't interested in the €310k offer and told try and bargain them up to at least €320k. At this stage all I'm hoping for is that we can get enough to pay off the existing mortgage and any legal fees.
> 
> We've also contacted another 2 estate agents over the weekend and they are going to send someone out to value the place today or tommorow. Hopefully this might get some renewed interest in the place.



The agent informed me this evening that the couple have withdrawn their offer as they are unwilling to negotiate on price. I thought that might move up a little but I was never going to accept their offer as it was below my purchase price.

Both Estate Agents are coming tomorrow so really hoping for some good news on the valuations.


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## LUFC (14 Aug 2007)

If their offer (€310k) was below your purchase price, yet your willing to deal with prices from (€320k) onwards, given the fact that your apt has been on sale for 9 mths, would you not take the small hit given the current market conditions?
If your an investor then surley you must be able to read the current market or are you just flippin an apt to try cash in on a few extra quid??


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## MrMan (14 Aug 2007)

> If their offer (€310k) was below your purchase price, yet your willing to deal with prices from (€320k) onwards, given the fact that your apt has been on sale for 9 mths, would you not take the small hit given the current market conditions?



He has already reduced his valuation by €70/80,000, every €10,000 will count i'm sure


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## geckko (14 Aug 2007)

Thomas22 said:


> Both Estate Agents are coming tomorrow so really hoping for some good news on the valuations.


 
I can't see how "valuations" are any part of your problem here.


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## Thomas22 (14 Aug 2007)

LUFC said:


> If their offer (€310k) was below your purchase price, yet your willing to deal with prices from (€320k) onwards, given the fact that your apt has been on sale for 9 mths, would you not take the small hit given the current market conditions?
> If your an investor then surley you must be able to read the current market or are you just flippin an apt to try cash in on a few extra quid??



Because 320k is enough to pay off my mortgage and legal fees but 310k isn't.


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## Thomas22 (14 Aug 2007)

Only one of the estate agents called today and they reckon that in the current market they wouldn't be willing to market the proprety at more than €325k


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## Jaid79 (15 Aug 2007)

Thomas22 said:


> Only one of the estate agents called today and they reckon that in the current market they wouldn't be willing to market the proprety at more than €325k


 
Is that not a good thing? at least they are above your break even point.

Jaid


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## mprsv1000 (15 Aug 2007)

mo3art said:


> Have you taken into account that it's the "silly season" at the momemt



Not forgetting that its been "silly season" for the past decade


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## Paulone (15 Aug 2007)

Thomas22 said:


> Only one of the estate agents called today and they reckon that in the current market they wouldn't be willing to market the proprety at more than €325k


 
Is that the going rate at the moment for apartments around you or which you think are equivalent? If it is, then it might be your best option if you absolutely must sell now.

Ring around a few more estate agents, you have nothing to lose


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## Thomas22 (16 Aug 2007)

Jaid79 said:


> Is that not a good thing? at least they are above your break even point.
> 
> Jaid



Yes we went with this EA. And he thinks he should be able to get the first viewing as soon as tomorrow. He definitely seems to be more professional than the last woman and seems to know the local market well. He thinks he will be able to sell it pretty quickly due to the location, price etc. All we need now is one decent offer!


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## Jaid79 (16 Aug 2007)

Thomas22 said:


> Yes we went with this EA. And he thinks he should be able to get the first viewing as soon as tomorrow. He definitely seems to be more professional than the last woman and seems to know the local market well. He thinks he will be able to sell it pretty quickly due to the location, price etc. All we need now is one decent offer!


 
The best of luck, let us know how you get on.

Jaid


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## Thomas22 (24 Aug 2007)

Another tough week. 
The new agent managed to arange 3 viewings so at least that seems to be much more happening.

We received 1 offer but it was for only €305,000, the agent actually thinks it is a serious offer but I think the person is just chancing their arm! 
We really are at our wits end at this stage

Has any else any experience of selling an apartment in Temple recently? Should be accept this offer or hold off until that market pickups? can things get any worse than the moment?


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## Jaid79 (24 Aug 2007)

Thomas22 said:


> Another tough week.
> The new agent managed to arange 3 viewings so at least that seems to be much more happening.
> 
> We received 1 offer but it was for only €305,000, the agent actually thinks it is a serious offer but I think the person is just chancing their arm!
> ...


 
That would leave you out of pocket, but its up to you if you are willing to hold on and see if the market turns. Me personaly I would ask the people to increase their offer more in line with your expectations. 

See what happens, I have spoken with a number of EA and there seems to be more activity lately.

Jaid


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## LUFC (27 Aug 2007)

Its a tough call, do you sell now & take a small hit or wait, if market keeps declining the €305 might look like a good offer in a few months time, if market picks up, you may get your asking price.
Its all down to how much the buyers can borrow & what they think is a fair price for your property.
In the summer of '06 people buying a house expected to become part of a bidding war (increasing above asking price), now the market has swung & buyers can bid below asking price.
How long will it take for sellers mentality to change..... or will it....


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## Brendan Burgess (3 Sep 2007)

This question has been dealt with adequately at this stage. Recent posts were in breach of our Posting Guidelines about not discussing house prices and have been deleted.

Brendan


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