# Air Lingus strike threat



## lemonhead (7 Nov 2008)

Any body got views on the reality of a strike taking place at the airline. I ask in the context of having booked a flight over christmas and their policy regarding the strike is that if the flight is cancelled, there will be a refund. However, if the strike is called today for example, the flight might not be cancelled until the day of the flight itself, in my case, mid December. If I want to make alternative arrangements I need to either book a second flight and take a chance on the Aer Lingus flight being cancelled, or simply do nothing and take a chance on not having a flight to take come the day.
My feeling is that this will be a nasty nasty dispute and all weapons including striking will be used.


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## tink (7 Nov 2008)

hi I think you are dead on and there will be strike as a staff are being advised not to take the package being offered. I cant see them doing the week of xmas but maybe the week before... just speculating though!


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## theresa1 (7 Nov 2008)

The workers should bankrupt the company if they have to. At the end of the day most will loose their jobs and they will get paid even if the Government have to step in. This issue could make or break the union's -probably break. They should get advice from the union's in Dublin Bus -love them or hate them they do seem tobe the only union left in this country with any bottle. Why did the Government hold on to shares?
Have a nice day!


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## omaraman (7 Nov 2008)

I have flights booked for the first week in December and I'm starting to get a little nervous. This I think is going to be a long, drawn out, dirty battle!


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## minion (8 Nov 2008)

I certainly wont be booking any flights with Aer Lingus until this issue is resolved.  I see this potentially going on through the summer and who is going to get hurt?  The poor sods who miss their flights.

I think this will be a bad one.


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## superdrog (8 Nov 2008)

Same here , travelling to the States in a fortnight and booked Continental instead of Aer Lingus even though it cost me €80 more.
Have a friend in Aer Lingus and he reckons things are going to get quite nasty over the next few weeks.


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## priscilla (8 Nov 2008)

Is it possible to cancel flights with aer lingus or are they non-refundable?. I have flights booked for the 27th of Dec to Boston but I am worried that if the flights are cancelled I will also lose most of my accomadation money as it will be outside the cancellation period.


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## Jody (9 Nov 2008)

I just posted a similiar question and insurance cover too in that section. We are heading to disney and telling the kids that its not happening is just not an option so I booked alternative cheap flight out as a back up, I was unsure if a refund would be provided if there was a strike though and from the earlier poster that seems to be covered..... I too think it will get nasty ... bad timing for all concerned


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## priscilla (9 Nov 2008)

Gut feeling tells me that the Christmas period will be left alone, I'm sure the unions will use it as a big bargaining tool but if flights are interfered with at this time I would imagine it would spell disaster for aer lingus.
Saying that I'm still really worried and in a pickle about what to do.


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## bond-007 (9 Nov 2008)

Personally, I wouldn't spend a penny with them until this whole matter has been resolved.


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## Lollix (9 Nov 2008)

theresa1 said:


> The workers should bankrupt the company if they have to. At the end of the day most will loose their jobs and they will get paid even if the Government have to step in. This issue could make or break the union's -probably break. They should get advice from the union's in Dublin Bus -love them or hate them they do seem tobe the only union left in this country with any bottle. Why did the Government hold on to shares?
> Have a nice day!


The government don't have the power to step in if the company is bankrupted; if it goes under, it just goes under. The government can't bail out Aer Lingus.
In my opinion, it's only a matter of time before Aer Lingus folds. Thye run a very inefficient operation compared to their direct competitors, and it won't take long for their cash reserves to melt away if they can't get this message through to staff. While lots of cabin crew for instance are fairly clued in as to the realities of commerce, the ground staff have a lot to learn about the real world.
I would predict that Aer Lingus will struggle on through another year or so of industrial relations problems, and then will be taken over by Lufthansa or by Ryanair. It has some nice assets in the form of its Heathrow slots; there won't be any shortage of buyers.


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## suntot (10 Nov 2008)

Does anyone know when this strike is due to happen? Most news reports mention the Christmas period, but some have also mentioned this Friday! Im really concerned as Im flying to the US on Saturday morning, my flight is with BA from heathrow, but I am taking the early Aer Lingus flight to Heathrow. Not sure how I will be affected, and dont want to go off booking a Ryanair flight just in case as I would still have to make my way to Heathrow, and not sure if I can do this within the time frame, or if travel insurance would cover it. Help! Does anyone know where I can go to get advice on this, as for once I am completely clueless as to what my rights are
Thanks in advance


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## priscilla (10 Nov 2008)

I would imagine your insurance would only cover the cost of a second ticket if the original was cancelled due to strike. Have a chat to your insurer to get advice on what to do.


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## bond-007 (10 Nov 2008)

Aerlingus might not cancel the flight and merely delay it to another day.Or they will allow you to change it for another date free of charge.


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## soy (10 Nov 2008)

The first week of Dec has been mentioned as a likely time for the strike in some newspaper reports that I have seen.


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## superdrog (10 Nov 2008)

Strike notice was served today by SIPTU. Expect a strike/industrial action from Nov.24th.

from www.independent.ie
Monday November 10 2008

SIPTU is to serve two weeks' strike notice on Aer Lingus this morning as part of a row over the company's latest €74m cost-cutting plan.


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## Nutso (11 Nov 2008)

I also have flights booked with AL to Boston 1-10th Jan and like others have paid for accommodation in full already.  It's not really an option with long haul to book another cheapie flight! I hope this is all sorted out before then!


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## z105 (11 Nov 2008)

> like others have paid for accommodation in full already


Can you tell me why you pay in full in advance? I know MOST hotels in North America allow you to cancel up to 4pm day of arrival and most guest houses and B&B's up to a week beforehand so why have you and "others" paid for the accomodation in full in advance ??


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## emrool (11 Nov 2008)

I paid for my hotel in advance with the JW Marriott in Washington DC for a holiday in late December.

Advance rate non-refundable $129 per night, normal rate €159.
Over five nights a substantial saving but not if Aer Lingus is on strike.

Do you think they will provide alternative flights with other airlines if 
the strike goes ahead?


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## bond-007 (11 Nov 2008)

> Do you think they will provide alternative flights with other airlines if
> the strike goes ahead?


I got caught with them a few years ago. They would not rebook people on other airlines. All they would offer was refund or a free change of flight to another date.
Ended up having to spend over €300 to fly on British Midland to get to Heathrow for my onward flight.


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## priscilla (11 Nov 2008)

Havealaugh,

Didn't have a choice, reservations wanted 50% upfront with the balance due two weeks before arrival. They will refund 100% except for admin fee of 50$ up until two weeks of arrival but after this the refund is much reduced, can't remember exactly how much off hand.

Does anyone think there will be much movement on the exchange rate between now and Christmas between the dollar and the euro, I'm wondering would I be better off paying the balance now as there is already over 230 euro in the difference since I paid the deposit or would I be better off waiting because of the other uncertainties?.


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## bond-007 (11 Nov 2008)

I would hang on until just before the 2 week limit. If the strike has taken hold by then I would cancel and cut your losses. 

It is impossible to say where the dollar will go between now and Christmas.

Have you checked out your insurance? Will they cover a strike cancellation?


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## Pique318 (11 Nov 2008)

theresa1 said:


> This issue could make or break the union's -probably break.


 Hopefully break IMO.



Lollix said:


> I would predict that Aer Lingus will struggle on through another year or so of industrial relations problems, and then will be taken over by Lufthansa or by Ryanair.


 Wouldn't that be just desserts for AL. "Oohh look at us, we're the flag carrier". AL are Ryanair under a different guise, and with unions. They're dragging the company down due to their ignorange of the real-world environment. No sympathy for them.


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## bond-007 (11 Nov 2008)

Desperate times at Aer Lingus. Just got this in an email.


> [FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]All *USA destinations* are  *reduced* - prices start from just *€149 one way incuding (their typo)  taxes and fuel surcharge*. So whether you want to experience the magic  of Christmas shopping in the States, pay a visit to friends or family or just  take a well-earned break in 2009, book your low fare to the USA  now![/FONT]        [FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]*
> Book by: *[/FONT][FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Fri 14  Nov[/FONT]    [FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]*Fly: *[/FONT][FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]17 Nov 08 - 18 Dec 08[/FONT]    [FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]
> One way including taxes and charges[/FONT]


You would want to be some fool to book those flights.


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## z105 (11 Nov 2008)

> They're dragging the company down due to their ignorange of the real-world environment



Will you enlighten us to your exact knowledge of the Aer Lingus situation? Do you know/understand the sacrifices the staff have made over the years to save the company from bankruptcy in the past? Sounds like you know nothing IMO.


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## priscilla (11 Nov 2008)

Hi Bond-oo7,

Thanks for that, yes I think I'll take your advice and wait until I have to pay the balance of the accomodation, not worth the worry to pay early to try and save a few bucks and yes again my travel insurance will cover strikes, thank God.

I just had a look at the aer lingus website and my flights aren't reduced at all, they are comming in at 6480 euro, I paid 2134euro in June for them, but there are only business seats left for my departure date so thats what is pushing up the price.

Just heard, Joe Duffy is covering the strike on the radio to-day if anyone is interested.


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## Pique318 (11 Nov 2008)

Havealaugh said:


> Will you enlighten us to your exact knowledge of the Aer Lingus situation? Do you know/understand the sacrifices the staff have made over the years to save the company from bankruptcy in the past? Sounds like you know nothing IMO.


My exact knowledge amounts to all that has been in the media over recent years. Strikes, opposition to changes in working practises etc. None of this has helped anyone except the unions.

Can you expand on all these sacrifices that have 'saved' the company from bankruptcy ? I'm sure I'm not the only one who's curious....


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## jmayo (11 Nov 2008)

theresa1 said:


> The workers should bankrupt the company if they have to. At the end of the day most will loose their jobs and they will get paid even if the Government have to step in. This issue could make or break the union's -probably break. They should get advice from the union's in Dublin Bus -love them or hate them they do seem tobe the only union left in this country with any bottle. Why did the Government hold on to shares?
> Have a nice day!




If they do go bankrupt then the workers will only get statutory redundancy and personally I do not want may taxes going to pay for some fe***** who would rather see a company go bust than get real.

Ah yes Dublin Bus the company that exists primarily for the benefit of it's staff.  


I was thinking of booking flight with Aer Lingus,  now there is no way I will.
All this strike action has done is decrease their sales and thus make remedial action all the more necessary.
Did the unions in AL not learn anything from the Ailtalia debacle ?
It appears not.


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## Nutso (11 Nov 2008)

Havealaugh said:


> Can you tell me why you pay in full in advance? I know MOST hotels in North America allow you to cancel up to 4pm day of arrival and most guest houses and B&B's up to a week beforehand so why have you and "others" paid for the accomodation in full in advance ??


 
I'm going to a ski resort and due to the fact that we will be there over the weekend closest to new year (one of their busiest weekends of the year), they requested payment in full in advance and it has to be cancelled 30 days prior in order to receive a full refund.


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## fobs (11 Nov 2008)

We are due to go to New York from Shannon on the 25th of Novemver for 1 week. There are flights available at a good price from British Airways for my dates from London and if i thought I could cancel and get my money back now would prefer to book with British Airways now and have my flight guarenteed. If they are threatening strike action we should have an option of cancelling and getting a refund as on the day it will be too late to make arrangements at affordable prices.


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## pjryan62 (11 Nov 2008)

I would say that one should be wary about booking any flights out of Dublin Airport around this time. If there are pickets placed outside it could cause chaos at the airport for the duration.Some staff from other airlines and ancillary services will not pass an official picket.


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## z105 (11 Nov 2008)

> Strikes, opposition to changes in working practises etc



And why exactly?


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## ubiquitous (11 Nov 2008)

pjryan62 said:


> I would say that one should be wary about booking any flights out of Dublin Airport around this time. If there are pickets placed outside it could cause chaos at the airport for the duration.Some staff from other airlines and ancillary services will not pass an official picket.



Just what the country needs right now


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## z105 (11 Nov 2008)

> I'm going to a ski resort and due to the fact that we will be there over the weekend closest to new year (one of their busiest weekends of the year), they requested payment in full in advance and it has to be cancelled 30 days prior in order to receive a full refund.



Are you staying at a B&B, Hotel or Guesthouse ? I find it strange that they would ask these terms - 30 days in advance, I'd have negotiated considering you are travelling form Ireland etc and not from the continent itself.


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## Nutso (12 Nov 2008)

It's a very popular hotel in the resort.  We've gone to the same place for the last 4 years, we really like it and the terms have always been the same.  I don't have any problem with paying upfront, in fact most of the time it suits me better as it is out of the way before the hols.  If there's a problem with the flights, it will be a different issue.  I have travel insurance so hopefully it will cover in the event of there being any problem.


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## Bronte (13 Nov 2008)

Havealaugh said:


> Will you enlighten us to your exact knowledge of the Aer Lingus situation? Do you know/understand the sacrifices the staff have made over the years to save the company from bankruptcy in the past? Sounds like you know nothing IMO.


 Are we talking about that magnificent 'Irish' company who charged so much that Irish emigrants in the UK/USA etc could not afford to fly home at Christmas. Lovely 'free' breakfast though for only IEP500 per person. We really miss that.  And what have the staff to say to all those who have already booked their Christmas flights, often their one and only flight home.  Who's making the sacrifice here, the staff or the customers?


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## z105 (13 Nov 2008)

> Are we talking about that magnificent 'Irish' company who charged so much that Irish emigrants in the UK/USA etc could not afford to fly home at Christmas. Lovely 'free' breakfast though for only IEP500 per person. We really miss that. And what have the staff to say to all those who have already booked their Christmas flights, often their one and only flight home. Who's making the sacrifice here, the staff or the customers?



And the type of gun put to your head to fly with Aer Lingus was? This strike has been pending months.

Do you get a "free" breakfast on the GB flights ?



> what have the staff to say to all those who have already booked their Christmas flights



What have the customers to say to 1300 people losing their jobs? Easy to sit on the fence and point the finger when you are not one in a position losing your job in advance of Christmas.

And PS I have 2 flights booked with AL that are in jeopardy beacuse of the strike, but I am prepared to put 1300 jobs ahead of my requirement to fly.

There are other airlines that fly from GB/USA.


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## kramer2006 (13 Nov 2008)

I'm pretty hacked off. While I sympathise with any Aer Lingus staff member in danger of losing their job, it still doesn't help me ...

I booked a holiday over a year ago which involves flying Aer Lingus to London in order to get a connecting flight. I have spent thousands of euros on hotels which are not refundable and my carefully planned itinerary now has question marks over it because of the Aer Lingus strike.

Today I will be booking alternative flights to London because I cannot take the chance of having no flight next week. I will be 100 euro out of pocket, but I console myself the fact that I will *NEVER *fly with Aer Lingus again. Really. I will be giving my money to the British airlines from now on. Too much uncertainty and unreliability; they don't deserve my custom.


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## NorfBank (13 Nov 2008)

The British airlines are not perfect either.

I'm in a similar situation but I booked BMI to fly to London for a connecting flight. They contacted me two weeks ago to notify that my scheduled flight (11am arrival) had been cancelled and the next flight would arrive at 2pm which would be too late for my connecting flight.

I then had to book an Aer Lingus flight to get me to London on time and now this is up in the air too (not literally unfortunately), I might have to give Michael a try now and ferry myself from LGW to LHR.

Aargh.


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## Bronte (13 Nov 2008)

Havealaugh said:


> And the type of gun put to your head to fly with Aer Lingus was?


  Sorry have you not heard of code sharing?  
I have an issue with Aer Lingus because of Irish emigrants of which I am one.  Have you gotton the boat from one end of Ireland to London?  Well I have and it was not pleasant.  You cannot get to the USA without flying, it costs an absolute fortune even today for families to get back and now they don't know if the flights will go.

I have every sympathy with anyone threatend with losing their job but it is a fact that Aer Lingus needs to cut it's cost base to compete with other airlines which in the past when it was the staff's private travel club it did not have to do.  The staff could state right now that there would be no strike from 20th Dec to 10th Jan, they would get a lot of kudos for doing so.


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## kramer2006 (13 Nov 2008)

That's a sad state of affairs, NorfBank. Customers/travellers need *reliability *above all else! Don't Aer Lingus realise this??

I must say, I used to think a lot of Aer Lingus as a brand; the national carrier and all. I suppose you could call it 'customer inertia' or 'brand loyalty', but I would always check out flights on Aer Lingus first. But now I've realised that this brand loyalty has been misplaced.


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## z105 (13 Nov 2008)

> Sorry have you not heard of code sharing?
> I have an issue with Aer Lingus because of Irish emigrants of which I am one. Have you gotton the boat from one end of Ireland to London? Well I have and it was not pleasant. You cannot get to the USA without flying, it costs an absolute fortune even today for families to get back and now they don't know if the flights will go





> Sorry have you not heard of code sharing?



 

I have indeed _gotten_ the boat.



> You cannot get to the USA without flying



Of course you can get to USA without flying, ever heard of boats/cruise lines?



> I have an issue with Aer Lingus because of Irish emigrants of which I am one.



Fly with someone else, simple really.



> which in the past when it was the staff's private travel club it did not have to do


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## z105 (13 Nov 2008)

> The British airlines are not perfect either.
> 
> I'm in a similar situation but I booked BMI to fly to London for a connecting flight. They contacted me two weeks ago to notify that my scheduled flight (11am arrival) had been cancelled and the next flight would arrive at 2pm which would be too late for my connecting flight.
> 
> ...



Don't like that situation Norfbank , if you have to go down the Gatwick/Heathrow route this might be of help -

http://www.londontoolkit.com/travel/heathrow_gatwick_bus_transfer.htm


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## NorfBank (13 Nov 2008)

Cheers havealaugh, I used that service before when I arrived at the wrong airport.


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## z105 (13 Nov 2008)

> when I arrived at the wrong airport



??


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## theresa1 (13 Nov 2008)

Get the firemen to support the strike -maybe the taxi's and hey presto we finally catch on to how the French people protest. We need a good strike!


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## z105 (13 Nov 2008)

> Get the firemen to support the strike -maybe the taxi's and hey presto we finally catch on to how the French people protest. We need a good strike!



You are so bold !


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## bond-007 (13 Nov 2008)

M1/M7/M50 blockade would do the trick


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## Bronte (13 Nov 2008)

Havealaugh said:


> I have indeed _gotten_ the boat.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
You know very well that code sharing meant that the prices and times were the same for say British Airway, London to Dublin as it was for Aer Lingus London to Dublin.  There was not even a penny in the difference.
Sorry for my bad English, well did you travel on the boat via one end of Ireland on a bus and sleep on the floor of the boat and then get a train to London, there is no one I know who enjoys that.  I remember the families and the vomit and I wouldn't like to subject my family to that.  
As for flying with someone else, one time there was no competition.  I suppose one could always swim.  I know you're being factitious about the boat to the US but it a very serious matter to people who have been looking forward to it and have saved long and hard for it.  Oftentimes they only come home every other year.


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## z105 (13 Nov 2008)

> You know very well that code sharing meant that the prices and times were the same for say British Airway, London to Dublin as it was for Aer Lingus London to Dublin. There was not even a penny in the difference.



There is always Ryanair & British Midland and maybe Cityjet are still flying to Dublin from London?



> Sorry for my bad English, well did you travel on the boat via one end of Ireland on a bus and sleep on the floor of the boat and then get a train to London, there is no one I know who enjoys that. I remember the families and the vomit and I wouldn't like to subject my family to that.



I know I know, I've done it twice in the past, but it's good we have a choice of airlines now don't you think.



> As for flying with someone else, one time there was no competition.  I suppose one could always swim. I know you're being factitious about the boat to the US but it a very serious matter to people who have been looking forward to it and have saved long and hard for it. Oftentimes they only come home every other year.



Competition, see above.

There are people who have worked long and hard in Aer Lingus who are now being told they can keep their jobs alright but will be paid minimum wage, their pensions gone, and their terms and conditions of employment totally changed etc etc The very people who didn't take many pay increases from the company over the years to help ensure it's survival and now the company want to use them as whipping boys.

It's a very serious issue for 1300 people and their families.


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## Jister (13 Nov 2008)

Havealaugh said:


> There are people who have worked long and hard in Aer Lingus who are now being told they can keep their jobs alright but will be paid minimum wage, their pensions gone, and their terms and conditions of employment totally changed etc etc The very people who didn't take many pay increases from the company over the years to help ensure it's survival and now the company want to use them as whipping boys.
> 
> It's a very serious issue for 1300 people and their families.


 
I know of lads pulling something like 70K per annum throwing a few bags on and off planes in Shannon - the wages are simply far too high for a competitive industry that is long since privatised.

The staff can either move with the times or watch the airline go under.

So what if they didn't take a few pay rises, they are waaaaaay overpaid anyway.


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## z105 (13 Nov 2008)

> I know of lads pulling something like 70K per annum throwing a few bags on and off planes in Shannon


Something like 70k?? How long are they with the company? The entry level wage to AL is €20,237.00 a full 10k less than the average industrial wage.

Did you know Dermot Mannion got a salary in the region of 1.1 million last year ??


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## ubiquitous (13 Nov 2008)

Havealaugh said:


> Did you know Dermot Mannion got a salary in the region of 1.1 million last year ??



What has that to do with anything? Would Aer Lingus be better off without him? 

Fwiw, Mannion's salary equates to approx. €275 per AL staff member per year, not exactly a huge cost for AL to bear.


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## z105 (13 Nov 2008)

Yes they would be better off without him. You think that salary is justifiable when the entry level salary is 10k less than the average industrial wage? His salary is equivalent to 36.66 times the average industrial wage. Good for you if you do - you're entitled to your opinion


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## ubiquitous (13 Nov 2008)

Havealaugh said:


> Yes they would be better off without him. You think that salary is justifiable when the entry level salary is 10k less than the average industrial wage? His salary is equivalent to 36.66 times the average industrial wage. Good for you if you do - you're entitled to your opinion



Well, what's the going rate for airline executives? Afaik Willie Walsh and Michael O'Leary are both earning serious money. Pay peanuts and...


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## z105 (13 Nov 2008)

This is an Aer Lingus thread, couldn't care less what others are earning. Aer Lingus is a small airline in the scheme of things, remuneration should match that for _all _employees.


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## ubiquitous (13 Nov 2008)

Havealaugh said:


> This is an Aer Lingus thread, couldn't care less what others are earning.



Who was it said "no man is an island"? Well, no company is an island, least of all an airline 



> Aer Lingus is a small airline in the scheme of things, remuneration should match that for _all _employees.


So the pilots in Aer Lingus should get paid the same as the tea ladies?


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## z105 (13 Nov 2008)

> So the pilots in Aer Lingus should get paid the same as the tea ladies?



Which line of my post said that ??

Remuneration should match responsibilty, my point is that 1.1 million is a humungous salary for a small airline.

They still have tea ladies in Aer Lingus?


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## ubiquitous (13 Nov 2008)

Well what else does "remuneration should match that for all employees" mean?




> Remuneration should match responsibilty


exactly


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## z105 (13 Nov 2008)

> Well what else does "remuneration should match that for all employees" mean?



It (remuneration) should match the fact that it's a small airline.


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## ubiquitous (13 Nov 2008)

Havealaugh said:


> It (remuneration) should match the fact that it's a small airline.



Should this principle apply to all AL staff remuneration?


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## z105 (13 Nov 2008)

and if it should??


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## ubiquitous (13 Nov 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> Should this principle apply to all AL staff remuneration?



Yes or No?


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## z105 (13 Nov 2008)

Surely there is more than Ubi with an opinion on this matter, it's getting boring debating an unwinnable argument with ubi?


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## ubiquitous (13 Nov 2008)

Havealaugh said:


> Surely there is more than Ubi with an opinion on this matter, it's getting boring debating an unwinnable argument with ubi?


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## Jister (13 Nov 2008)

Havealaugh said:


> Something like 70k?? How long are they with the company? The entry level wage to AL is €20,237.00 a full 10k less than the average industrial wage.
> 
> Did you know Dermot Mannion got a salary in the region of 1.1 million last year ??


 
Nobody forces people to work for Aer Lingus. They can work elsewhere if they want. 

The reality is that Aer Lingus staff must now accept that they work in the private sector so tough sh1t.

Good for Mannnion, you would want to be topping a million to deal with the unionised shower of clowns "working" for Aer Fungus.


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## Bronte (14 Nov 2008)

Havealaugh said:


> I know I know, I've done it twice in the past, but it's good we have a choice of airlines now don't you think.
> 
> 
> Competition, see above.
> ...


  Well you live up to your name, can't believe an Aer Lingus defender likes competiton, that's why Aer Lingus are where they are today - I was in a bad mood this morning but you've given me a good laugh.


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## Bronte (14 Nov 2008)

ubiquitous said:


>


 Well you managed to pin havealaugh down which I did not, particularly on the families from abroad question.  

Does anyone know for sure that baggage handlers are earning 70K because I'm in the wrong job if that is so.  I don't get the point about entry levels only getting 20K, isn't Aer Lingus a closed shop as in, if you're in you're in, you never leave and there is no new hires?


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## Jister (14 Nov 2008)

Bronte said:


> Well you managed to pin havealaugh down which I did not, particularly on the families from abroad question.
> 
> Does anyone know for sure that baggage handlers are earning 70K because I'm in the wrong job if that is so. I don't get the point about entry levels only getting 20K, isn't Aer Lingus a closed shop as in, if you're in you're in, you never leave and there is no new hires?


 
Reasonably sure about the €70K. Mr. Aer Lingus didn't deny it, just tried to deflect it by telling us about the €20K entry level.


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## z105 (14 Nov 2008)

> Well you live up to your name, can't believe an Aer Lingus defender likes competiton, that's why Aer Lingus are where they are today - I was in a bad mood this morning but you've given me a good laugh


I was merely stating there is competition on the routes you mentioned so stop whining and change airline.



> Well you managed to pin havealaugh down which I did not, particularly on the families from abroad question.
> 
> Does anyone know for sure that baggage handlers are earning 70K because I'm in the wrong job if that is so. I don't get the point about entry levels only getting 20K, isn't Aer Lingus a closed shop as in, if you're in you're in, you never leave and there is no new hires?


It's not about "pinning" people down rather having an open debate.



> particularly on the families from abroad question.


Families from abroad question ? There is plenty of choice of airlines to get to Ireland from wherever in the world you want to come "home" from. It's not Aer Lingus's obligation or concern to get you and other families "home" for Christmas.



> I don't get the point about entry levels only getting 20K, isn't Aer Lingus a closed shop as in, if you're in you're in, you never leave and there is no new hires?


 No you are wrong, for example I know for a fact that there are new seasonal workers taken on every year. You must be refering to the Public/Civil Service.



> Reasonably sure about the €70K. Mr. Aer Lingus didn't deny it, just tried to deflect it by telling us about the €20K entry level.


Everyone is reasonably sure about everything thats goes on in AL but nobody knows diddly for fact. No deflection, rather just stating the facts. You never answered how long the people you know are working in AL, the ones on 70k, and how many hours are they working for this 70k?.

There are genuine concerns for 1300 workers and their families who pay their taxes in this country and not abroad - this is what the issue is.


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## Jister (14 Nov 2008)

Havealaugh said:


> I was merely stating there is competition on the routes you mentioned so stop whining and change airline.
> 
> It's not about "pinning" people down rather having an open debate.
> 
> ...


 
If they are worried about their jobs then they shouldn't be going on strike.


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## Bronte (14 Nov 2008)

Havealaugh said:


> It's not Aer Lingus's obligation or concern to get you and other families "home" for Christmas.
> 
> No you are wrong, for example I know for a fact that there are new seasonal workers taken on every year.


 
You still have not answered the question and I'm rather taken aback at your response about Aer Lingus's obligations to it's customers, I thought it was the 'better, caring ' airline.  Actually I naively used to belive that until I say what a difference Ryanair made to people's lives and tourism into Ireland.

For your information I have plenty of choice on my route and normally I take Ryanair (always cheaper, well at least 29 times out of 30 to Aer Lingus) and I have other options and this year I'm actually taking the boat as due to the turmoil in the airline industry during the summer when I booked I decided I couldn't risk a particular route closing down. So whining I am not.  But seemingly it's easy for you to say to a family living in the US on their 1st trip back in 5 years who've paid 5K for flights to switch to another airline like it was a matter of picking sweets, please get real. 

Seasonal workers doesn't count as normal workers.

I'm not having a go at you by the way, I just think that the unions in Aer Lingus have brought about this situation but I understand the staff think it's the management.  The truth is if Dermot Mannion et al don't do this there will be no Aer Lingus, and actually I'd rather we have both Aer Lingus and Ryanair, competition is good, a monopoly is not.


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## Jister (14 Nov 2008)

Bronte said:


> You still have not answered the question and I'm rather taken aback at your response about Aer Lingus's obligations to it's customers, I thought it was the 'better, caring ' airline. Actually I naively used to belive that until I say what a difference Ryanair made to people's lives and tourism into Ireland.
> 
> For your information I have plenty of choice on my route and normally I take Ryanair (always cheaper, well at least 29 times out of 30 to Aer Lingus) and I have other options and this year I'm actually taking the boat as due to the turmoil in the airline industry during the summer when I booked I decided I couldn't risk a particular route closing down. So whining I am not. But seemingly it's easy for you to say to a family living in the US on their 1st trip back in 5 years who've paid 5K for flights to switch to another airline like it was a matter of picking sweets, please get real.
> 
> ...


 
There will be no Aer Lingus in a couple of years anyway. Ryanair will take them over and will certainly not take it up the hole from the Aer Lingus unions when the time comes.


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## z105 (14 Nov 2008)

> If they are worried about their jobs then they shouldn't be going on strike.



Oh right



> But seemingly it's easy for you to say to a family living in the US on their 1st trip back in 5 years who've paid 5K for flights to switch to another airline like it was a matter of picking sweets, please get real.



What, and people who face losing their job should care that one family cannot come "home" for Christmas ?




> Seasonal workers doesn't count as normal workers.



I simply corrected your post, what's a "normal" worker?- 





> and there is no new hires?





> You still have not answered the question



Question?



> There will be no Aer Lingus in a couple of years anyway. Ryanair will take them over and will certainly not take it up the hole from the Aer Lingus unions when the time comes



Your language is bizarre and quite frankly rude, see posting guidline 10.

If the above happens Ryanair might not have a choice, if they have no one to fly their planes.


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## Jister (14 Nov 2008)

Havealaugh said:


> Oh right
> 
> 
> 
> What, and people who face losing their job should care that one family cannot come "home" for Christmas ?


 
Who is losing their job? Aer Lingus want to outsource jobs. People have a choice, take a new job or take redundancy. Thats a damn sight better than being made redundant with a couple of days notice and getting nothing but statuary redundancy.

The wasters in Aer Lingus that have been freeloading off the taxpayers for years need to get real - the game is up.



Regarding my language


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## Lollix (15 Nov 2008)

This argument is going nowhere guys, two people with opposing points of view and no chance of changing your minds.
To get back to the point a little, AL staff and management seem to be unaware of the impact that their brinkmanship is having on their core business. Like other posters, I would have been very "brand loyal" and always hit the AL website first for tickets. Not any more, been stung too often with strikes and threats of strikes. I have had to abandon AL tickets several times in the past and re-book with alternatives, and I'm having to do it again now because I can't be sure of AL. I'm sick of it, quite frankly.
I have a couple of trips booked to Germany in December that are important, and I really have no choice but to book other flights and write off about a grands worth of AL tickets. I did this before, but never again.
You see, once a very loyal customer like me tries out the opposition, we find that our loyalty was misguided. The other airlines really are better. Newer planes, more helpful staff, and I'm not abused and screwed for an extra kilo in my briefcase by staff on commission for collecting overweights.
I don't just blame the beards for all the AL debacle; the managers seem to be on another planet, using the strike process to resolve grievances that should never even see the light of public day. Bottom line though is that between them they are running the company into the ground, driving away customers who won't come back unless it suits them.
As for making sacrifices, don't make me laugh! The AL staff are still living in the past, in a dream world where Bertie Ahern will shamble in the door and make sure that nobody loses their job. Have a look outside at the real world, guys. It's raining out there!
I give them a year until their customer base erodes, helped by the impact of the recession on numbers flying, and then thay will be sold and bought cheaply by Ryanair or Lufthansa.
Anyone know if Paddy Power has a book on how long AL will last?


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## bond-007 (15 Nov 2008)

> Anyone know if Paddy Power has a book on how long AL will last?


Not at present. If he did he would clean up.

Personally I can't see AL lasting till the new year.


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## z105 (16 Nov 2008)

> The other airlines really are better. Newer planes, more helpful staff, and I'm not abused and screwed for an extra kilo in my briefcase by staff on commission for collecting overweights.



Don't make me laugh - We are discussing Aer Lingus here NOT Ryanair


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## Lollix (17 Nov 2008)

Havealaugh said:


> Don't make me laugh - We are discussing Aer Lingus here NOT Ryanair


 
Aer Lingus planes are shabby, scruffy, and outdated in comparison with Ryanair. Theeir transatlantic fleet (with two exceptions) is ancient and the planes lack features like inflight entertainment to the standard of the other transatlantic carriers. Their flights to many European capitals are grim when compared to alternatives -- Malev flights on the Budapest route for instance are comfortable and are staffed by crews with a real sense of customer service.
With regards to the baggage issue and the charging for every kilo -- since AL staff were put on commission to collect these charges they have become overzealous to the point of extreme rudeness, outperforming Ryanair staff in the obnoxious stakes.
My general point though is this. AL had a loyal customer base. They are eroding this by what seems like an everlasting series of industrial relations crises, to a point where you can't book AL flights with any confidence that they can be relied on. Loyal frequent fliers like me are deserting AL in droves, and we won't be back except for the odd time it suits us. Couple this with the downturn in the economy and lower numbers flying, and the graph is all downhill. I give them a year at most.
The only people who are unable to grasp this, it sems, are the people who work for Aer Lingus. It's very obvious to everybody else.


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## z105 (17 Nov 2008)

> The only people who are unable to grasp this, it sems, are the people who work for Aer Lingus. It's very obvious to everybody else.



And you know how many? and what a sweeping statement re it being obvious to EVERYONE else !


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## Lollix (17 Nov 2008)

Havealaugh said:


> And you know how many? and what a sweeping statement re it being obvious to EVERYONE else !


OK, my apologies, maybe some people within Aer Lingus can see the obvious as well. If that's the case, and they can see the damage that they are doing to their own futures, then why on earth do they use the strike threat to settle every issue? I'm not just talking about staff; the management are equally to blame.
Let me spell it out for anyone who can't see the blindingly obvious. Every time there is a threat of strike in AL, it does enormous damage to customer confidence and to revenues. Who in their right mind would book a flight with AL that was departing in the next six weeks? You might risk it if it wasn't important, and if it was cheap enough, but you just can't be sure that you will be able to travel. If you have business abroad, or you are thinking of coming home from the USA for Christmas for instance, why on earth would you risk booking an AL flight?
Badly run airlines working out of Dublin had an easy ride for the last few years. Passenger numbers were high, on the back of high consumer spending and a steady flow of emigrant workers. That is changing, and the last thing AL needs is to drive away its loyal customer base -- people like me who have flown with them even when they were screwing me back in the seventies on the London route. From my point of view, having lost a lot of money by having to hedge my position every time they settle petty grievances with the strike weapon, and having been driven to alternatives, I no longer go automatically to aerlingus.com for my tickets. I'm not likely to come back either, except when it suits me.
I can only assume that the previous poster has an interest either as a member of AL staff or some other close relationship with them. He is entitled to his opinions, but should also take note of the realities of working in a private company. AL is no longer the featherbedded monopoly that is once was, and staff have to wake up to that fact.


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## Complainer (17 Nov 2008)

Lollix said:


> AL is no longer the featherbedded monopoly that is once was, and staff have to wake up to that fact.


Is there any suggestion that the management need to wake up a bit too?


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## Lollix (17 Nov 2008)

Complainer said:


> Is there any suggestion that the management need to wake up a bit too?


Read my post; I acknowledged that the blame for the problems in Aer Lingus lies with all staff, managers included. The unionised staff are too quick to threaten the strike weapon, and that threat is what causes real damage to customer confidence. However I have consistently said that the mamagement create a situation where they use the industrial relations machinery to settle disputes that should never see the light of day. In any other company, performance like this would see most of the managers and a good lot of the staff sacked, with good reason.
If you exclude landing rights in London, Aer Lingus is worth nothing when you think about it. The value of the company lies in the business that it transacts, and this value is related to passenger numbers, occupancy, and seat sale prices. Driving away customers by washing dirty linen in public like this is so utterly crazy that it defies understanding.
I would like to see AL survive, but I don't believe that the staff (including the managers) understand that the 'good old days' are over and that they have to compete and perform in a challenging and shrinking marketplace with escalating costs. The only outcome that I can see is a sell off, with the wolves circling to hoover up the Heathrow slots.


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## ilovepink (19 Nov 2008)

i work for ei and have been told nothing on the matter... so far no strike has been confirmed for mon


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## z105 (20 Nov 2008)

> i work for ei and have been told nothing on the matter... so far no strike has been confirmed for mon



As an employee do feel free to give us the lowdown on what exactly has been/is happening in Aer Lingus, may I also ask you how long you have worked there?


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## Lollix (20 Nov 2008)

I see by this evening's news that they have agreed on a set of proposals to put to the staff. The SIPTU woman on the news didn't even have the cop on to moderate her message; she warned of the possibility of strike action if the proposals are not acceptable. You could almost hear the customers running away, the airline must be losing a ton of business with the uncertainty of the whole thing.
If they could work this dispute out in private as they have done over the last few days, it begs the question as to why they had to launder their dirty linen in public and drive away customers to the extent that they are now having to discount lots of seats to try to tempt them back. Watching the SIPTU rep on TV tonight, it's clear that the unions still don't get it. The need to protect the business while they fight about efficiencies is alien to the unions it seems.
To an outsider, it would look as if the unions and managers are trying to close the airline down with this irresponsible behaviour, but surely they can't be doing this on purpose? Can they really be so far out of touch with reality?


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## z105 (20 Nov 2008)

> To an outsider, it would look as if the unions and managers are trying to close the airline down with this irresponsible behaviour, but surely they can't be doing this on purpose?



I'd say that's it alright.


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## Purple (21 Nov 2008)

Lollix, excellent posts on this thread. I agree completely.


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## Jister (22 Nov 2008)

Havealaugh said:


> Something like 70k?? How long are they with the company? The entry level wage to AL is €20,237.00 a full 10k less than the average industrial wage.
> 
> Did you know Dermot Mannion got a salary in the region of 1.1 million last year ??


 
According to the Indo today:

Average gross pay for new staff will drop to around €38,200. 

So thats around 10K over the average industrial wage, as opposed to 10K below it which you seem to suggest is the norm.


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## Complainer (22 Nov 2008)

ilovepink said:


> i work for ei and have been told nothing on the matter... so far no strike has been confirmed for mon


Is it true that some of the newer office staff were put on manual handling courses last week so that they'd be able to do baggage handling work in case of strike?


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## z105 (22 Nov 2008)

> According to the Indo today:
> 
> Average gross pay for new staff will drop to around €38,200.



And according to the Indo today - 

Average gross pay will drop to around €38,200.

No mention of the words new staff, how would it drop anyways if they are just new staff


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## IsleOfMan (25 Oct 2009)

ilovepink said:


> i work for ei and have been told nothing on the matter... so far no strike has been confirmed for mon


 
Does ei mean that you work for Aer Lingus?


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## Emiso (25 Oct 2009)

Yes EI is the term for Aer Lingus


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