# Is Fórsa Trade Union membership fees worth it for Public sector employees



## PoundMan (15 Sep 2022)

I joined the Fórsa Trade Union when I moved to the Republic back in 2020. Initially I worked in the Civil Service and then I moved to a job with a Local Authority but have remained a member throughout. At the moment the membership is costing me nearly €400 per year and I'm still on the fence about the value of this. The majority of my colleagues are not members and most of them feel it is a waste of money particular as public sector workers because in the end we will all be treated the exact same regardless of membership or not. For example if future pay rises come into effect, we will all get them no matter if we are members of a trade union or not.

Nonetheless I thought maybe trade union membership might still be worth it due to some of the other perks and benefits/rewards that are usually associated with group schemes. But I have to be honest I am not really noticing perks of much significance as for example when I recently needed car insurance, I ended up getting a far better deal by just shopping around on comparison websites compared to the prices I was quoted by different group schemes. I have income protection with a forsa group scheme through cornmarket but I would imagine if I shopped around I might also find better deals elsewhere, particularly as my forsa income protection scheme with the local authority is costing 1.99% of gross salary compared to my previous civil service scheme which was only 0.99%.

I am on the fence about potentially cancelling my membership but I would be keen to hear some thoughts on the subject to see what others feel about things as perhaps the are various other factors that I haven't thought to consider.


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## Páid (16 Sep 2022)

I feel that it is a complete waste of money. They have a very cosy relationship with a few finance companies that sell products to their members. I have previously found that even though these companies state that there is a discount for being a member of the union, in reality there isn't. You will find far better value elsewhere.


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## Feemar5 (16 Sep 2022)

If the majority of your colleagues are not in the Union I would advise you to drop out.      I was a member of a Union and felt it was a waste of money but most people in the company were in it so I continued to pay.


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## Concrete (16 Sep 2022)

PoundMan said:


> For example if future pay rises come into effect, we will all get them no matter if we are members of a trade union or not.


Who would negotiate such pay rises on your behalf if no one was in the union?
Pay and conditions that the union work for in representing you and your colleagues should be your only consideration here.
Things like car insurance are silly frills and are not the reason for joining (or leaving) a union (although, that said, I've a feeling Income Protection is worth looking at carefully)

I remember reading this a while ago if you can access it:
Want to change the world? Join a union
It points out for example:

"If you want to make sure that the lion’s share of all the new wealth being created goes to those who are already wealthy, your best bet has been to make unions seem, as they do to so many young people, like mere vestiges of a fading past."


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## Groucho (16 Sep 2022)

Concrete said:


> Who would negotiate such pay rises on your behalf if no one was in the union?
> Pay and conditions that the union work for in representing you and your colleagues should be your only consideration here.



So who negotiates the generous rates of pay, allowances and other perks for the Union Head Honchoes - are they members of another elite Union?


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## NoRegretsCoyote (16 Sep 2022)

Public service trade union officials are in my experience lazier and more entitled than their members, and by quite some margin!

They talk a lot about the benefits they've negotiated for members but when you put them under the microscope the benefits disappear when you compare it with just shopping around. For most trade unions most of the time there is just nothing to do but the subs roll in anyway. It really is a cushy number.

The one advantage of membership and activism is that you know what is going on at local level and, all else equal, knowledge is power and it can help a bit with promotion and mobility opportunities. But in return you have to sit through the most tedious and long-winded meetings with people who have failed at everything else and the union is the only place that they can feel in any way powerful.

Otherwise there is zero private benefit from the pay deal. It'll get negotiated and agreed with or without you and you'll benefit from it. There are rare examples of certain grades/unions being excluded from pay agreements for productivity reasons but these again are few and far between. So if  you're not in you still win.

It can get a bit sticky if there is ever industrial action as you end up passing your colleagues on the picket line. But that might happen once in your career and is soon forgotten.

Tax relief for union membership as well was abolished in 2011 I think - a lot of people probably still think they are getting it!



I'm not a public service member any more but probably wouldn't sign up even if I was. It's simply not worth the five figures you will probably pay over the course of a career.


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## Groucho (16 Sep 2022)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> Tax relief for union membership as well was abolished in 2011 I think - a lot of people probably still think they are getting it!



Yep.   The end of a shameless Bertie bribe to the Unions in order to get some pay deal over the line.


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## Slim (16 Sep 2022)

After 40 years of union membership, a few years as a committee member and, more recently, engagement with the WRC from the staff side, my opinion is that Forsa has become something of a chocolate teapot and I suspect other unions are the same. However, I believe that the absence of unions would have been and would be, if they disappeared, cataclysmic for public sector staff and even more so if private sector employees had no unions. Yes, you don't have to join and you will still enjoy the benefits of collective bargaining but that would be selfish- just letting others carry the can for negotiating for all. My friend once derided trade unions but both he and his wife joined or attempted to bring in a union when THEY needed something. Better in the union than out, I say even if they don't seem to offer much these days. 

TL;DR Yes, Forsa is poor but better than no union!
"You never miss the water til the well runs dry"


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## NoRegretsCoyote (17 Sep 2022)

Slim said:


> My friend once derided trade unions but both he and his wife joined or attempted to bring in a union when THEY needed something. Better in the union than out, I say even if they don't seem to offer much these days.


The question is whether it is worth 0.8% of your salary with no tax relief. It's a lot of money! 

Having seen union staff up close I would say they could easily achieve as much pulling in much lower subscriptions. Turkeys don't ever vote for Christmas and none of them will ever propose a reduction in subscriptions as they don't believe in cost cutting or efficiency of any variety.

There is a kind of Laffer Curve here as well. Membership would be much more palatable at 0.3% of salary than 0.8%. Sure unions would lose in overall revenue but long term they would pull in more membership as well.

PS: the other thing that always struck me (confirmed here on AAM) was how little useful pension advice unions were able to give despite the fact that PS pensions are very complex and members need to make very consequential choices often in the run-up to retirement. The default advice seemed to be "talk to [a specific broker]", and never anyone else. I would love to know exactly how those wheels are greased.


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## PoundMan (17 Sep 2022)

*"The general subscription rate for 2022 is 0.8% of basic salary up to a maximum of €399.34 (monthly rate €33.28 ) i.e. a salary max of €49,918."*

It seems like the subscription fees are better value to the higher salary employees so maybe it might make more financial sense to join when one has worked their way up the ranks a bit.


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## AlbacoreA (18 Sep 2022)

Considering the


Slim said:


> After 40 years of union membership, a few years as a committee member and, more recently, engagement with the WRC from the staff side, my opinion is that Forsa has become something of a chocolate teapot and I suspect other unions are the same. However, I believe that the absence of unions would have been and would be, if they disappeared, cataclysmic for public sector staff and even more so if private sector employees had no unions. Yes, you don't have to join and you will still enjoy the benefits of collective bargaining but that would be selfish- just letting others carry the can for negotiating for all. My friend once derided trade unions but both he and his wife joined or attempted to bring in a union when THEY needed something. Better in the union than out, I say even if they don't seem to offer much these days.
> 
> TL;DR Yes, Forsa is poor but better than no union!
> "You never miss the water til the well runs dry"



I'm not sure the unions have done themselves any favors by being quick to concede concessions in difficult time and slow and weak in regaining them in better times. As such new staff over recent years just don't see the value of them.

In the lockdown any concessions for keeping the wheels turning working from home or under COVID have been quickly forgotten. Without much protest from the unions. 

Be interesting to see what happens to the Civil Servants they want to bring into Garda umbrella and lose their CS terms and conditions. You'd have thought this would be perfect for the union to show it's worth. Thus far barely a squeek from them. 









						Union opposes moves to ‘conscript’ civilian staff into Garda
					

Government wants force to become a single organisation with a single workforce




					www.irishtimes.com


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## Itchy (18 Sep 2022)

AlbacoreA said:


> Thus far *barely a squeek from them*.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





> [Fórsa] said it would “resist conscription of civilians into An Garda Síochána”, arguing that the plans could affect the terms and conditions of its members and have implications for their Civil Service promotion prospects.


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## AlbacoreA (18 Sep 2022)

My point being if I hadn't mentioned it, would anyone here have known about it. The article is a year old. You'd have thought it would be a big news item for the unions.


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## Salvadore (18 Sep 2022)

The public sector unions became very fat and lazy in the era of partnership agreements and I don’t think they’ve ever recovered to the point where they understand what it is they should stand for.

Paid union officials are largely inaccessible to ordinary members while local reps are generally performing the role under sufferance and have neither the interest nor the motivation to bang tables on anyone’s behalf. In my experience, they’re easily handled by management.

That said, the income protection rates can be attractive I’m told but if you can get as good a deal elsewhere, there’s even less reason to join a public sector union.


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## Peanuts20 (19 Sep 2022)

It's not unusual for unions to end up negotiating deals for both members and non-members, quite common in Banking for example as well where a lot of staff are not a member of the IBOA (or whatever they are called these days) as they see them as ineffective and frankly they do what the banks tell them to do. Majority of people in the private sector are not union members as frankly, they don't see the point.

The only reason I could ever see these days for being in a union is for support in a HR/Grievance/disciplanary sessions. My experience of sitting across the table from union officials is that most (not all) are practical and reasonable people and won't necessarily defend the indefensible


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## Groucho (19 Sep 2022)

Peanuts20 said:


> The only reason I could ever see these days for being in a union is for support in a HR/Grievance/disciplanary sessions. My experience of sitting across the table from union officials is that most (not all) are practical and reasonable people and won't necessarily defend the *defencless*



Perhaps you mean the indefensible?


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## Concrete (19 Sep 2022)

Groucho said:


> So who negotiates the generous rates of pay, allowances and other perks for the Union Head Honchoes - are they members of another elite Union?


Yes - I believe union staff tend to be members of a union (their own or another one).
Now, you avoided my question, would you like to take a shot at it:
"Who would negotiate such pay rises on your behalf if no one was in the union?"


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## NoRegretsCoyote (19 Sep 2022)

Peanuts20 said:


> The only reason I could ever see these days for being in a union is for support in a HR/Grievance/disciplanary sessions.


This is a good reason. But you'll probably see this coming and can sign up with the union comfortably before there are internal proceedings or the WRC.



Concrete said:


> "Who would negotiate such pay rises on your behalf if no one was in the union?"


Politics still happens whether or not you vote, the GAA club still fields a team if you don't show up to the AGM.

Any individual can free ride from the sacrifices made by colleagues who are union members. The alternative is compulsory union membership which is a whole can of worms.


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## Concrete (19 Sep 2022)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> This is a good reason. But you'll probably see this coming and can sign up with the union comfortably before there are internal proceedings or the WRC.
> 
> 
> Politics still happens whether or not you vote, the GAA club still fields a team if you don't show up to the AGM.
> ...


Like @Groucho , you seem to have avoided the question.
You've mentioned the situation of personally not joining the union.
If there was no one in the union, the union wouldn't exist - what then?
I'd argue that staff (in public or private sector) would fare less well without an experienced negotiator on their side.


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## Peanuts20 (19 Sep 2022)

Groucho said:


> Perhaps you mean the indefensible?


Yes, I was trying to say, defend individual issues where they know that, for example, disciplinary action is merited. I've changed the post


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## michaelm (19 Sep 2022)

Peanuts20 said:


> The only reason I could ever see these days for being in a union is for support in a HR/Grievance/disciplanary sessions.


This is why I'm a union member.  I view it as an insurance policy (which may or not pay if called on) which underpins my job security.  Should there be a cull I expect that the non-union members will be first in the crosshairs.  



NoRegretsCoyote said:


> Any individual can free ride from the sacrifices made by colleagues who are union members.


Anyone, just not everyone.  I view unions as somewhat of a necessary evil.


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## Sunny (19 Sep 2022)

michaelm said:


> This is why I'm a union member.  I view it as an insurance policy (which may or not pay if called on) which underpins my job security.  Should there be a cull I expect that the non-union members will be first in the crosshairs.
> 
> Anyone, just not everyone.  I view unions as somewhat of a necessary evil.



If there is a cull as you call it, there is zero protection granted to union members that is not granted to non-union members. It is the role that is made redundant and not the person. If a company decided to use union membership as a selection criteria for redundancy, they would lose an unfair dismissal case. There are reasons to be in unions....That's not one.


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## michaelm (19 Sep 2022)

Maybe so.  My view is that should they want to reduce numbers they may take the path of lease resistance, look at non-union people and make some of their roles redundant.


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## Groucho (19 Sep 2022)

Concrete said:


> "Who would negotiate such pay rises on your behalf if no one was in the union?"



I would, obviously.   I'm not the type of hapless mendicant who needs one of "the comrades" to do my negotiating for me!

(This man is my role model!   https://www.rte.ie/archives/2022/0829/1319383-one-man-picket/  )


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## Salvadore (20 Sep 2022)

Concrete said:


> "Who would negotiate such pay rises on your behalf if no one was in the union?"



It’s ultimately an individual’s responsibility to negotiate his/her remuneration and it’s a fallacy to assume that a union can always achieve a better deal on your behalf. 

If an individual is particularly valuable to an organisation, he/she would be better going it alone. Employers are more likely to give a decent salary increase if they’re not compelled to give it to all other grade equivalents, including the duffers.

That said, it can be a convenience to employers to deal only with one negotiating party rather than with each individual employee.

The union movement still has an important role to play, for example, in ensuring decent health and safety standards (dockyard workers spring to mind). There are still many unscrupulous employers around (take a look at some WRC decisions). 

Unions need to go back to their roots and take their heads out of the trough.


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## Peanuts20 (20 Sep 2022)

michaelm said:


> Maybe so.  My view is that should they want to reduce numbers they may take the path of lease resistance, look at non-union people and make some of their roles redundant.


My experience is that the desire is usually to get the union members out and not the non-union ones. It's easier to do a collective deal to exit a group of people then potentially having to negotiate with individuals and do each case on a one by one basis. I'm not suggesting people are made redundant because of union membership, but it is often easier to do so and if they have legacy T&C's then it can be desirable for new owners to exit them and hire others at a cheaper cost.

As for payrises, it depends on the company. In a tech firm for example, it's quite common for someone to say to their boss, I've an offer from somewhere else, here is what they are offering, match it or I'm off. The need for unions has reduced in a society with a better educated and more mobile workforce. 

There is no better illustration of the decline of unions then what is happening in banking. Imagine in the 70's if 3 (Danske, KBC and Ulster) of the high street banks said they were closing, it would have been a nationwide strike. Now it's a case of "grand so, lets do a deal"

I'm not anti-union by the way and was a member of one in the UK. I've seen some good union reps in the past and they can perform a necessary and important role. But in my experience it tends to be the exception and not the norm.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (20 Sep 2022)

The issue in the public sector is that:

All staff benefit from pay rises whether union member or not
There is never compulsory redundancy anyway so being a union member makes little difference in that regard
The main benefit is private. The union will help if you have a grievance. Is that worth up to €400 a year? It seems like pretty expensive insurance.


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## Sunnygirl69 (21 Oct 2022)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> The issue in the public sector is that:
> 
> All staff benefit from pay rises whether union member or not
> There is never compulsory redundancy anyway so being a union member makes little difference in that regard
> The main benefit is private. The union will help if you have a grievance. Is that worth up to €400 a year? It seems like pretty expensive insurance.


Well said NoRegretsCoyote. Like Pound an, I've been toying round with the idea of finishing my Forsa membership. I joined shortly after joining the HSE in 2015. In my experience they pick their battles & are quite cosy with management.


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## AlbacoreA (21 Oct 2022)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> The issue in the public sector is that:
> 
> All staff benefit from pay rises whether union member or not
> There is never compulsory redundancy anyway so being a union member makes little difference in that regard
> The main benefit is private. The union will help if you have a grievance. Is that worth up to €400 a year? It seems like pretty expensive insurance.


All true. 

If you are in a niche area with few union members the union probably won't get involved if that niche is messed around with. Strength in numbers. If you dilute the membership then you can't really complain if you lose all bargaining power. 

But have to agree they are in decline. I wonder how that will play out going forward.


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