# Housing for key workers



## Purple (15 Dec 2022)

Kieran Christie, head of the ASTI, is calling for subsidised housing for key workers. This is not a new thing and other countries have allowances and supports for some sectors but what is a key worker?
The narrative is that it's teachers and nurses but there are other jobs that are far more important for the country to function. The people who keep the lights on, the water running, take our waste away and deliver food to the shops are the real key workers and are paid far less than teachers or nurses so where does the list stop? The average salary for a primary school teacher aged between 25 and 34 is €50,000, with the opportunity to do grinds or summer work on top of that. Nurses aren't as well paid and work much longer hours over the year but they earn an average of €45,000 a year. Should people on reasonably good incomes get subsidised housing based only on their job? If so at what salary level should that support be removed? And given that there is a housing shortage what group should they be prioritised ahead of?  I see some merit in a "Dublin allowance" (or Galway or Cork etc) but even more government intervention of this sort in the housing market is the last thing we need.


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## Blackrock1 (15 Dec 2022)

Purple said:


> Kieran Christie, head of the ASTI, is calling for subsidised housing for key workers. This is not a new thing and other countries have allowances and supports for some sectors but what is a key worker?
> The narrative is that it's teachers and nurses but there are other jobs that are far more important for the country to function. The people who keep the lights on, the water running, take our waste away and deliver food to the shops are the real key workers and are paid far less than teachers or nurses so where does the list stop? The average salary for a primary school teacher aged between 25 and 34 is €50,000, with the opportunity to do grinds or summer work on top of that. Nurses aren't as well paid and work much longer hours over the year but they earn an average of €45,000 a year. Should people on reasonably good incomes get subsidised housing based only on their job? If so at what salary level should that support be removed? And given that there is a housing shortage what group should they be prioritised ahead of?  I see some merit in a "Dublin allowance" (or Galway or Cork etc) but even more government intervention of this sort in the housing market is the last thing we need.


i dont think a dublin allowance (like the london allowance) is unreasonable for essential workers, id put guards, nurses, firefighters and teachers in that. Im sure there are other state employees that come to mind.


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## Purple (15 Dec 2022)

Blackrock1 said:


> i dont think a dublin allowance (like the london allowance) is unreasonable for essential workers, id put guards, nurses, firefighters and teachers in that. Im sure there are other state employees that come to mind.


Why single them out though? As listed above there are people who are far more essential who earn far less. Should some of the best paid young graduates in the country really be getting more? When the economy turns, as it surely shall, will those payments be reduced accordingly?


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## Blackrock1 (15 Dec 2022)

Purple said:


> Why single them out though? As listed above there are people who are far more essential who earn far less. Should some of the best paid young graduates in the country really be getting more? When the economy turns, as it surely shall, will those payments be reduced accordingly?


because we need them to function and advance our society, education and healthcare are key as are the people who uphold law and order. And if they were among the best paid graduates we wouldnt be having this discussion!

who else would you include that is far more essential? and on the state payroll?


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## KOW (15 Dec 2022)

Blackrock1 said:


> because we need them to function and advance our society, education and healthcare are key as are the people who uphold law and order. And if they were among the best paid graduates we wouldnt be having this discussion!
> 
> who else would you include that is far more essential? and on the state payroll?


Care workers. Bin men. Grocery workers. Airport staff. Bus drivers. Dart Drivers. 
TD,s?


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## skrooge (15 Dec 2022)

Hard to see a one rule fits all approach working across the country. However, if/when all the social housing comes on stream might there be an argument for ring fencing some social housing for staff in roles deemed important. Such places could be administered by Local authorities. In does sound a bit like a HAP+ scheme mind you. Not sure how to stop it just becoming a subsidy for those who shout loudest rather then those who actually need it from societies perspective.


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## Purple (15 Dec 2022)

Blackrock1 said:


> because we need them to function and advance our society, education and healthcare are key as are the people who uphold law and order.


We do, but we need water, power, food, waste removal and sewage more.


Blackrock1 said:


> And if they were among the best paid graduates we wouldnt be having this discussion!


I stand corrected, they are not amongst the best paid graduates, teachers are the best paid graduates.


Blackrock1 said:


> who else would you include that is far more essential? and on the state payroll?


Irish Water employees. And why should we only help those who are privileged to be employed by the State?


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## Itchy (15 Dec 2022)

Purple said:


> The narrative is that it's teachers and nurses but there are other jobs that are far more important for the country to function. The people who keep the lights on, the water running, take our waste away and deliver food to the shops are the real key workers and are paid far less than teachers or nurses so where does the list stop?


ESB workers are very well paid as fair as I understand. Irish water have an exceedingly high average salary in the organization incl. bonus. Waste and food delivery are private sector with market wages.


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## Threadser (15 Dec 2022)

Purple said:


> I stand corrected, they are not amongst the best paid graduates, teachers are the best paid graduates


The take home pay of a new entrant teacher is in the region of €2,2000 a month. Average rent for a 1 bed apartment in the city is 1,800 a month. House share usually €800. We have a chronic shortage of teachers in urban areas. The exodus will continue until there are affordable accommodation options within a reasonable commute to city schools. When little Zac or Sophie doesn't have a qualified teacher in their classroom then we have a serious problem. Trying to compile a hierarchy of essential workers is pointless. All are necessary for our cities to function properly.


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## Leo (15 Dec 2022)

Itchy said:


> Waste and food delivery are private sector with market wages.


Are you suggesting state employees are earning less? So much so that they are deserving of a hand-out? Or have the public sector unions failed miserably in achieving market pay for state employees?


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## Purple (15 Dec 2022)

Threadser said:


> The take home pay of a new entrant teacher is in the region of €2,2000 a month. Average rent for a 1 bed apartment in the city is 1,800 a month.


The average starting Salary for a teacher in 2019 was €38,701. That's around €2,600 a month after tax. Very few 24 year olds are renting their own apartment. If they took the house share they'd have around €430 a week after tax and accommodation costs. 
The average gross salaries for primary teachers in Ireland in 2019 and 2020 was €58,975 – the fourth highest in the EU – ranging from teachers aged 25-34 earning €49,529 on average to those aged 55-64 earing €73,747.


Threadser said:


> House share usually €800. We have a chronic shortage of teachers in urban areas. The exodus will continue until there are affordable accommodation options within a reasonable commute to city schools. When little Zac or Sophie doesn't have a qualified teacher in their classroom then we have a serious problem.


I agree that there is a serious problem with the supply of qualified teachers who want to actually work in the sector. An obvious first step is to actually apply the rules around career breaks and job sharing but yes, it's a real problem.


Threadser said:


> Trying to compile a hierarchy of essential workers is pointless. All are necessary for our cities to function properly.



Exactly, so who gets the free gaff?


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## Threadser (15 Dec 2022)

Purple said:


> agree that there is a serious problem with the supply of qualified teachers who want to actually work in the sector. An obvious first step is to actually apply the rules around career breaks and job sharing but yes, it's a real problem.


The idea that restricting any of these schemes will actually improve the situation is ridiculous. Those refused career breaks will simply resign to go abroad, mainly to the Middle East where they can earn much more and have subsidised accommodation. Granting them a career break offers some hope they may return. Those who job share are generally doing so because of childcare or to care for a elderly parent. They are providing another essential service in doing this. Irish teachers are very much in demand internationally. We need to seriously consider how we will retain them where they are most needed, in our urban areas. No members of the profession expect a "free gaff" obviously.


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## Blackrock1 (15 Dec 2022)

Purple said:


> We do, but we need water, power, food, waste removal and sewage more.
> 
> I stand corrected, they are not amongst the best paid graduates, teachers are the best paid graduates.
> 
> Irish Water employees. And why should we only help those who are privileged to be employed by the State?


sorry, the point is teachers are paid well as graduates but they aren't high paid workers overall, and they can't afford to buy in the cities if they were so well paid they wouldn't have this issue. Picking the point where they start earning is just arbitrary.


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## Blackrock1 (15 Dec 2022)

Purple said:


> We do, but we need water, power, food, waste removal and sewage more.
> 
> I stand corrected, they are not amongst the best paid graduates, teachers are the best paid graduates.
> 
> Irish Water employees. And why should we only help those who are privileged to be employed by the State?


The reason it relates to those who are 'privileged' to be employed by the state is that everyone else is working for a private enterprise so what they get paid isn't really something the state can influence, except maybe by tax breaks.


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## Leo (15 Dec 2022)

Blackrock1 said:


> Picking the point where they start earning is just arbitrary.


Picking teachers is arbitrary, there are many others in the same plight who have less earning potential


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## Threadser (15 Dec 2022)

Leo said:


> Picking teachers is arbitrary, there are many others in the same plight who have less earning potential


I don't think anyone is suggesting that teachers are they only ones affected by this, but nonetheless they are affected and are voting with their feet by leaving the cities. We can rant on about how well paid they are but we now have a severe shortage in city schools which we need to address before it worsens.


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## Blackrock1 (15 Dec 2022)

Leo said:


> Picking teachers is arbitrary, there are many others in the same plight who have less earning potential


maybe so, personally, i would support it for essential workers and id include teachers in that, your opinion may differ.


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## odyssey06 (15 Dec 2022)

Do you take the house off them if they change careers? Are fired? Quit?


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## Itchy (15 Dec 2022)

Leo said:


> Are you suggesting state employees are earning less? So much so that they are deserving of a hand-out? Or have the public sector unions failed miserably in achieving market pay for state employees?



I'm suggesting the comparisons are ridiculous and self-serving. The proposal is framed to try and address an acute problem in the Union's constituency and also to somewhat align with the dysfunctional nature of the way their employer delivers the service. It is not proposed because it the most optimal solution or that they see themselves as superior to other workers as suggested.

Comparing salaries, arguing about the hierarchy of importance and the "privilege" of being employed by the state (LOL!) is largely irrelevant. The 'market pay' in the public sector is more a reflection of the States ability to wield its power as the monopolistic employer in the relevant sector and historical sectoral factors (teaching and nursing being largely dominated by women etc.).


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## cremeegg (15 Dec 2022)

Purple said:


> Kieran Christie, head of the ASTI, is calling for subsidised housing for key workers. This is not a new thing and other countries have allowances and supports for some sectors but what is a key worker?
> The narrative is that it's teachers and nurses but there are other jobs that are far more important for the country to function. The people who keep the lights on, the water running, take our waste away and deliver food to the shops are the real key workers and are paid far less than teachers


I think the point about public servants is that they are paid the same no matter where they work in the country.

Food delivery workers I expect are paid far more in Dublin than in country towns.

The suggestion is that the state should pay differing amounts in differing areas, based on the additional difficulty in recruiting in certain areas.


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## Purple (15 Dec 2022)

Threadser said:


> The idea that restricting any of these schemes will actually improve the situation is ridiculous. Those refused career breaks will simply resign to go abroad, mainly to the Middle East where they can earn much more and have subsidised accommodation.


Why do you think that? 


Threadser said:


> Those who job share are generally doing so because of childcare or to care for a elderly parent. They are providing another essential service in doing this.


Jasus, it seems everything they do is essential. Are they heroic too?



Threadser said:


> Irish teachers are very much in demand internationally.


All teachers are. 


Threadser said:


> We need to seriously consider how we will retain them where they are most needed, in our urban areas.


I agree completely. 


Threadser said:


> No members of the profession expect a "free gaff" obviously.


That's a relief.


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## mathepac (15 Dec 2022)

Threadser said:


> All are necessary for our cities to function properly.


Only urbanites count  in deserving essential services then, to hell with the hindmost in the sticks,to coin a phrase.


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## Purple (15 Dec 2022)

Blackrock1 said:


> sorry, the point is teachers are paid well as graduates but they aren't high paid workers overall,


No need to apologise. They certainly aren't high paid employees but they aren't low paid ether. An average salary of around €60,000 with a very good pension and superb holidays is a good package. I don't subscribe to the idea that they have a short working week as they generally do lots of non-classroom hours.


Blackrock1 said:


> and they can't afford to buy in the cities if they were so well paid they wouldn't have this issue. Picking the point where they start earning is just arbitrary.


An income of around €90k is needed to buy the average house in Dublin.


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## Purple (15 Dec 2022)

mathepac said:


> Only urbanites count  in deserving essential services then, to hell with the hindmost in the sticks,to coin a phrase.


Do you people have the 'lectric and running water and all that stuff?!


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## Purple (15 Dec 2022)

Itchy said:


> The 'market pay' in the public sector is more a reflection of the States ability to wield its power as the monopolistic employer in the relevant sector


It's more a reflection of the Unions superb ability to put a gun to the head of the Irish people whenever they want more money for their members. 


Itchy said:


> and historical sectoral factors (teaching and nursing being largely dominated by women etc.).


That's a major reason why so many leave the sectors. Women are far more likely to choose to work part time, take career breaks and opt out of the workforce entirely. The shortage of GP's is entirely due to the same thing. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that but the State needs to train more people in female dominated sectors as graduates are less likely to remain within their industry or sector.


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## Purple (15 Dec 2022)

odyssey06 said:


> Do you take the house off them if they change careers? Are fired? Quit?


If they change career or quit (or take a career break) they would have to leave. None of them get fired and they are all exceptional... and heroic...


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## Peanuts (15 Dec 2022)

Threadser said:


> The idea that restricting any of these schemes will actually improve the situation is ridiculous. Those refused career breaks will simply resign to go abroad, mainly to the Middle East where they can earn much more and have subsidised accommodation. Granting them a career break offers some hope they may return. Those who job share are generally doing so because of childcare or to care for a elderly parent. They are providing another essential service in doing this. Irish teachers are very much in demand internationally. We need to seriously consider how we will retain them where they are most needed, in our urban areas. No members of the profession expect a "free gaff" obviously.


Isn't one of the issues is that that by granting these career breaks the replacement teachers are not being made permanent and can't get mortgage approval etc;. I'm not sure if they lose out on some benefits as well. This is obviously making these (temporary?) positions less attractive to other teachers.
If teachers are in such demands then there shouldn't be any issues in them giving up their job if they want to go on a career break as they'll have no problem getting a job when they come back (albeit probably not at the same school).


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## Blackrock1 (15 Dec 2022)

Purple said:


> No need to apologise. They certainly aren't high paid employees but they aren't low paid ether. An average salary of around €60,000 with a very good pension and superb holidays is a good package. I don't subscribe to the idea that they have a short working week as they generally do lots of non-classroom hours.
> 
> An income of around €90k is needed to buy the average house in Dublin.


I wasnt apologising, but you knew that.

Thanks for confirming that despite your assertions about how well paid they are that teachers cant afford to buy in Dublin.


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## Leo (15 Dec 2022)

Itchy said:


> I'm suggesting the comparisons are ridiculous and self-serving


Agreed, they are of course. To pretend that any one profession is deserving of special treatment due to a housing shortage is of course nonsense.  

To pretend that state employees are more deserving than employees of private companies is equally nonsense.


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## Purple (15 Dec 2022)

Blackrock1 said:


> Thanks for confirming that despite your assertions about how well paid they are that teachers cant afford to buy in Dublin.


Where did I say, or even imply, that they could afford to buy in Dublin?
I asked why we should help relatively well paid people to acquire accommodation when there are less well paid and more essential employees in other sectors also working in Dublin.


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## Leo (15 Dec 2022)

Threadser said:


> I don't think anyone is suggesting that teachers are they only ones affected by this, but nonetheless they are affected and are voting with their feet by leaving the cities. We can rant on about how well paid they are but we now have a severe shortage in city schools which we need to address before it worsens.


Some teachers are leaving the cities, true. But they are not the only ones doing so, so are not deserving of special treatment. We find it difficult to recruit for a lot of well paid IT jobs too, should all IT workers get a hand-out?

Indeed teachers are in the lucky position of having a qualification that is sought after in a number of other countries with agencies specialising in lining up work and accommodation to make the switch very easy. The majority go for a year or two and return with a lump sum that many in other careers can only dream about.


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## fliball123 (15 Dec 2022)

Every worker in Dublin is running the same race and jumping the same hurdles when it comes to the price of rent and buying a house. We all pay tax and this tax runs our economy. So everyone is important. We need more houses built to drive down prices. Not put more expense over more taxation on everyone else so teachers can live in Dublin.


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## Leo (15 Dec 2022)

Itchy said:


> The 'market pay' in the public sector is more a reflection of the States ability to wield its power as the monopolistic employer in the relevant sector and historical sectoral factors (teaching and nursing being largely dominated by women etc.).


Hold on, average wages in the public sector are higher than those in the private sector! I'm hoping that's not news to you. Remember the Davy report that calculated that a private sector worker would need €600k to buy an annuity plan to match the public sector pension?

Note the pay gap has narrowed since that report, but it still favours public employees.


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## Leo (15 Dec 2022)

fliball123 said:


> So everyone is important. We need more houses built to drive down prices.


That's it exactly, the only thing putting more money into the system achieves is higher prices. Increasing supply is the only was to lower them.


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## Threadser (15 Dec 2022)

I agree the price of houses and rental properties needs to come down. IT workers can generally work remotely so don't necessary need city accommodation. Frontline workers, including teachers, cannot and obviously as the majority of the country lives in cities the majority of jobs are there. We can continue to ignore the problem and wait for it to worsen or we can seriously consider that some incentives will be needed to keep essential staff working in urban areas.


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## Threadser (15 Dec 2022)

Leo said:


> Hold on, average wages in the public sector are higher than those in the private sector! I'm hoping that's not news to you. Remember the Davy report that calculated that a private sector worker would need €600k to buy an annuity plan to match the public sector pension?
> 
> Note the pay gap has narrowed since that report, but it still favours public employees.


The  single scheme public service pension has been in place since 2013 and is far from generous. Inevitably public/private sector pension comparisons fail to mention the state pension which is a generous benefit for all workers for which some contribute minimal PRSI. That is a whole other debate though.


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## Itchy (15 Dec 2022)

Leo said:


> Hold on, average wages in the public sector are higher than those in the private sector! I'm hoping that's not news to you. Remember the Davy report that calculated that a private sector worker would need €600k to buy an annuity plan to match the public sector pension?
> 
> Note the pay gap has narrowed since that report, but it still favours public employees.



That article states:



> The Davy study is at odds with a recent Central Statistics Office (CSO) paper which found that public sector workers are paid slightly less than their private-sector counterparts overall. That research said that those at the bottom of the income ladder tend to be better off in the public sector while those at the top earn more in the private sector.


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## Purple (15 Dec 2022)

Threadser said:


> Frontline workers, including teachers, cannot and obviously as the majority of the country lives in cities the majority of jobs are there.


The front line is in Ukraine. We are not at war so there is, thankfully, no front line in Ireland. Referring to teachers or nurses or anyone not in combat as being on a "front line" is just hyperbole.


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## Threadser (15 Dec 2022)

Purple said:


> The front line is in Ukraine. We are not at war so there is, thankfully, no front line in Ireland. Referring to teachers or nurses or anyone not in combat as being on a "front line" is


Whatever you prefer to call them the younger cohort of essential public sector workers are unable to rent affordably or buy particularly in Dublin where we desperately need them. I know this because I work with them and have seen  an unprecendented exodus of staff on the ground with no one applying for the jobs to replace them.


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## Purple (15 Dec 2022)

Threadser said:


> Whatever you prefer to call them the younger cohort of essential public sector workers are unable to rent affordably or buy particularly in Dublin where we desperately need them.


The same is happening with the younger cohort of essential private sector workers. 


Threadser said:


> I know this because I work with them and have seen  an unprecendented exodus of staff on the ground with no one applying for the jobs to replace them.


Higher property taxes would greatly help them. Reform of the planning system would also help. As would an efficient and functional construction sector. A reallocation of social housing according to needs would probably be the best short term solution. 
What won't help is an allocation of housing based on some arbitrary hierarchy which in reality will come down to who bleats most over the public airwaves.


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## Firefly (15 Dec 2022)

Purple said:


> Kieran Christie, head of the ASTI, is calling for subsidised housing for key workers. This is not a new thing and other countries have allowances and supports for some sectors but what is a key worker?


Simples. Anyone who is a member of a union, and preferably the ASTI.


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## Threadser (15 Dec 2022)

Both sectors private and public are interdependent and agree key staff in both sectors may need support. For example if there is no one in a classroom to teach 30 children then the parents of those children will be unable to work effectively. The pandemic has shown clearly that lots of jobs can be done successfully remotely but others can't and it is these workers that may need support. Britain has been providing subsidised housing for key workers for decades. It would probably be a starting point to study how they have done so and what criteria they have used.


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## arbitron (15 Dec 2022)

odyssey06 said:


> Do you take the house off them if they change careers? Are fired? Quit?



This is a really important point. Employees should not be dependent on their job/employer to directly supply or support their housing, healthcare, education, etc. Being tied like that distorts the employee/employer relationship. Look at healthcare in the US, a "perk" of the job that disappears when your contract expires, a disaster. It also lets local and national governments off the hook for failing to ensure adequate affordable housing.


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## KOW (15 Dec 2022)

Every time the housing market is fiddled with by Government it just makes things worse. The only thing the government should be addressing is getting builders to build. End of.


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## Threadser (15 Dec 2022)

KOW said:


> Every time the housing market is fiddled with by Government it just makes things worse.


That is because it is the wrong type of intervention. Back in the 1940s the Gov of the day built really good quality corporation estates many of which are in good order to this day.


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## Purple (16 Dec 2022)

Threadser said:


> That is because it is the wrong type of intervention. Back in the 1940s the Gov of the day built really good quality corporation estates many of which are in good order to this day.


That again... we impoverished generations of Irish people by spending almost nothing on health or education... but we built houses.
We had very basic welfare for everyone other then pensioners... but we built houses.

Going back to the housing policies of the 1940's would be monumentally stupid. It's one of those tropes that is trotted out and left unchallenged by the media but it would be a disastrous think to do. And we didn't provide housing for everyone; the 60,000 people who left the country every year didn't have a house.


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## RichInSpirit (16 Dec 2022)

Don't forget the farmers!
Essential workers to keep the teachers and other essential workers fed.


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## Threadser (16 Dec 2022)

Purple said:


> That again... we impoverished generations of Irish people by spending almost nothing on health or education... but we built houses.
> We had very basic welfare for everyone other then pensioners... but we built houses.


But building solid housing at that time removed people from inner city slums where mortality and particularly infant mortality was incredibly high. This measure obviously improved people's health and allowed them to access education. A fundamental mistake was made in selling off these houses to tenants rather than keeping them as social housing stock. Now we have  a situation where vulture funds build often sub standard housing and the state subsidies the exorbitant rents on these properties in the form of RAS and other schemes. These funds  pay little tax on their profits while the state pays the maintenance. None of these properties are affordable for  key workers to rent and there is very little available for  potential first time buyers.


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## Purple (16 Dec 2022)

Threadser said:


> But building solid housing at that time removed people from inner city slums where mortality and particularly infant mortality was incredibly high.


That process started before independence, though it massively ramped up afterwards. People like Lady Aberdeen, wife of the Viceroy, were instrumental in the improvements in health, particularly women's health in Dublin. We've chosen to whitewash people like her out of our history because they were British and Protestant.  


Threadser said:


> This measure obviously improved people's health and allowed them to access education.


They certainly didn't improve their access to education. 


Threadser said:


> A fundamental mistake was made in selling off these houses to tenants rather than keeping them as social housing stock.


Yep, we should have evicted tenants who didn't pay their rent or damaged the State's property but instead we bottled it and walked away from the problem by selling off the houses. It was a total failure of Socialism as an economic model.


Threadser said:


> Now we have  a situation where vulture funds build often sub standard housing


Really? What propertied? What Vulture Funds?
From what I see it was Irish builders who did that during the Boom because of a failure by State employees to do their job. 

Should we go back to the State building small houses with no insulation, no central heating, no inside toilets, so social infrastructure and no public transport links in vast quantities in isolated areas than turn into slums?  


Threadser said:


> and the state subsidies the exorbitant rents on these properties in the form of RAS and other schemes.


Yes, State intervention in the demand side of the market is almost always a bad idea.


Threadser said:


> These funds  pay little tax on their profits while the state pays the maintenance.


Really? Is that true?


Threadser said:


> None of these properties are affordable for  key workers to rent and there is very little available for  potential first time buyers.


I agree, it's the downside of an incredibly successful economy. Thankfully we are doing better than most and, almost uniquely amongst rich countries, our levels of inequality have reduced over the last 20 years. It's not just key workers though, it's nurses and teachers and people like that too.


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## KOW (16 Dec 2022)

7000 approved planning permissions in county Wexford right now. Will these house all be built. Not a chance. Same in many counties around the country.


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## Purple (16 Dec 2022)

KOW said:


> 7000 approved planning permissions in county Wexford right now. Will these house all be built. Not a chance. Same in many counties around the country.


We've a shortage of labour because the construction sector is so inefficient and labour intensive. We need more immigrants.


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## Threadser (16 Dec 2022)

Purple said:


> Really? What propertied? What Vulture Funds?


Just read this morning that Dublin City Council purchased 500 apartments from Kennedy Wilson in Dublin 8 but they are now unable to rent these properties out due to fire safety defects. Due diligence should have been done before purchase for sure


Purple said:


> Should we go back to the State building small houses with no insulation, no central heating, no inside toilets, so social infrastructure and no public transport links in vast quantities in isolated areas than turn into slums?


Never suggested that. Only mentioned good quality housing estates such as Marino, Cabra etc.


Purple said:


> It's not just key workers though, it's nurses and teachers and people like that too.


Yea who needs nurses and teachers! 


Purple said:


> an incredibly successful economy


Agree our economy is doing well but we are back to the problem of housing in our cities for people whose work is essential to keep the city functioning.


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## Purple (16 Dec 2022)

Threadser said:


> Never suggested that. Only mentioned good quality housing estates such as Marino, Cabra etc.


Have you been in many of the houses in Carba? 



Threadser said:


> Yea who needs nurses and teachers!


Every country needs them, along with people who do dozens of other jobs. 
When jobs are categorised as essential and non-essential I think those involved in the provision of water, energy and food are the most essential. You may think otherwise but we can do without teachers for 2-3 months each summer. I don't think we'd manage for that length of time without food, water and power. 



Threadser said:


> Agree our economy is doing well but we are back to the problem of housing in our cities for people whose work is essential to keep the city functioning.


I agree. It's a problem all across the developed world since we started printing money to bail ourselves out after the 2008 crash. We are managing it better than most.


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## Threadser (16 Dec 2022)

Purple said:


> Have you been in many of the houses in Carba?


Yes, believe it or not my job involved visiting those same houses for several years. They are well constructed and have stood the test of time. Hence they are very much in demand when listed for sale.

Agree of course re water and food being priority services but I'm not sure our economy would continue to boom if our education system begins to fail because of a lack of teachers. It's generally cited as one of the reasons why so many multinationals locate themselves here. The availability of a well educated workforce! The tax breaks help too.


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## Purple (16 Dec 2022)

Threadser said:


> Yes, believe it or not my job involved visiting those same houses for several years. They are well constructed and have stood the test of time. Hence they are very much in demand when listed for sale.


Location and aa general shortage of housing due to our population increasing so quickly is what makes them in high demand.



Threadser said:


> Agree of course re water and food being priority services


Excellent.


Threadser said:


> but I'm not sure our economy would continue to boom if our education system begins to fail because of a lack of teachers.


I agree, but it would take years. Our economy would suffer more if we didn't have food, water or power.


Threadser said:


> It's generally cited as one of the reasons why so many multinationals locate themselves here. The availability of a well educated workforce! The tax breaks help too.


It is indeed, mainly because MNC's can't just say that they are here for the tax breaks... but they are here for the tax breaks. If our workforce was that skilled then those MNC's would be writing the code and developing the tablets here instead of mainly doing advertising, admin and production. It's very important that we don't believe our own propaganda. Nobody ever got better at their job by only looking at the things they were good at.


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## Threadser (16 Dec 2022)

I think we have the highest percentage of 3rd level grads in Europe so our population is pretty well educated which according to the IDA helps to attract business from overseas. Those pesky teachers must be doing something right despite all their holidays!


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## ashambles (16 Dec 2022)

Threadser said:


> Now we have a situation where vulture funds build often sub standard housing.....Just read this morning that Dublin City Council purchased 500 apartments from Kennedy Wilson in Dublin 8 but they are now unable to rent these properties out due to fire safety defects. Due diligence should have been done before purchase for sure


They bought 39 apartments from that source not 500 - and that source didn't built them - they were built by some property developers from Cavan (Greenleaf group)

The fund bought those particular units cheap and felt happy to take the risk on Irish quality standards. The people who really should have been doing deep inspections were the council and cluid who've now bought 270 of those units.









						Fire safety defects detected in up to 500 Dublin apartments
					

Inadequate fire prevention measures throughout social and private apartments on former Fatima Mansions estate in Dublin




					www.irishtimes.com


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## Threadser (16 Dec 2022)

It is just depressing that poor quality construction standards still seem to be commonplace... and no one held accountable


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## Purple (16 Dec 2022)

Threadser said:


> I think we have the highest percentage of 3rd level grads in Europe so our population is pretty well educated which according to the IDA helps to attract business from overseas.


Well they are hardly going to say it's all about the tax breaks now are they?



Threadser said:


> Those pesky teachers must be doing something right despite all their holidays!


They are doing something right. We have quite good teachers. They are very bad at teaching foreign languages but they are good at English and alright at maths.


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## Purple (16 Dec 2022)

Threadser said:


> It is just depressing that poor quality construction standards still seem to be commonplace... and no one held accountable


Yep, the State isn't good at regulation and enforcement.


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## Leo (16 Dec 2022)

Threadser said:


> The  single scheme public service pension has been in place since 2013 and is far from generous. Inevitably public/private sector pension comparisons fail to mention the state pension which is a generous benefit for all workers for which some contribute minimal PRSI. That is a whole other debate though.


The Davy report is from 2017.


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## Leo (16 Dec 2022)

Itchy said:


> That article states:


Exactly, isn't it those at the lower end of the income market that should be prioritised for supports? So again that would reinforce the argument for focusing on the lower paid in the private sector.


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## Threadser (16 Dec 2022)

Leo said:


> The Davy report is from 2017.


That doesn't mean the analysis in it is correct. Davy blotted it's own copybook pretty badly if I am not mistaken.


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## Threadser (16 Dec 2022)

Leo said:


> Exactly, isn't it those at the lower end of the income market that should be prioritised for supports? So again that would reinforce the argument for focusing on the lower paid in the private sector.


Many at the lower end of the income market already get supports in the form of RAS and HAP. The workers who need additional support are those whose income is above the threshold for those supports but who cannot afford to rent or buy in the cities. Those who can work remotely have the option of relocating to less expensive parts of the country but that is not an option for many urban based essential jobs.


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## Cavanbhoy (16 Dec 2022)

Threadser said:


> Many at the lower end of the income market already get supports in the form of RAS and HAP. The workers who need additional support are those whose income is above the threshold for those supports but who cannot afford to rent or buy in the cities. Those who can work remotely have the option of relocating to less expensive parts of the country but that is not an option for many urban based essential jobs.


For a single teacher earning up to 35k Net increasing to 40k Net next year living in Dublin they like anyone else can qualify for housing supports.


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## Threadser (16 Dec 2022)

Cavanbhoy said:


> For a single teacher earning up to 35k Net increasing to 40k Net next year living in Dublin they like anyone else can qualify for housing supports.


They can apply but they will probably not qualify. I have yet to encounter a teacher who qualified for housing supports and I have worked in schools for over 30 years. Just recently a young teacher in my school had a conversation with a member of our support staff who had just been allocated a social house outside of Cabra where she grew up. She wasn't happy about being asked to move. The teacher said that she would have no choice but to leave Dublin next year as rent was too expensive and she  would have no realistic chance of owning a property. The advice she got was to "put her name on the list". The teacher had to ask "what list"? Single people do not have priority on any housing list so even if she knew what list to apply for it is likely that she would languish on the list for several years and her income would move above the income limit.  She has now left our DEIS school to take up a job in the Midlands. No one applied to replace her.


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## BoscoTalking (16 Dec 2022)

If the cities and towns in Ireland had decent dependable transport that supported local hospitals, schools etc it would be better for *everyone* and those whose salaries didn’t stretch could live a little further out and still commute like they do in other countries, namely the UK. 

Nurses and other hospital staff are travelling long distances to Dublin from Carlow, Wexford and Meath to city centre hospitals to work 12 hour days and pay for parking (or have to park a walk away where they are not accompanied in the dark ) are indeed the unsung hero’s - how they break even after they pay the diesel is beyond me. And I know a few of them and I wonder is it a mixture of vocation, pride, bloody mindedness or whatever that keeps them driving on in all weather, through COVID and all the rest.  But I guess they do this to be able to own their own home and not rent forever.
The strong unions will press for these for their members - fair enough, but as a member of private sector I’ed rather see better transport services for workers first, where we could all benefit.


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## Cavanbhoy (17 Dec 2022)

Threadser said:


> They can apply but they will probably not qualify. I have yet to encounter a teacher who qualified for housing supports and I have worked in schools for over 30 years. Just recently a young teacher in my school had a conversation with a member of our support staff who had just been allocated a social house outside of Cabra where she grew up. She wasn't happy about being asked to move. The teacher said that she would have no choice but to leave Dublin next year as rent was too expensive and she  would have no realistic chance of owning a property. The advice she got was to "put her name on the list". The teacher had to ask "what list"? Single people do not have priority on any housing list so even if she knew what list to apply for it is likely that she would languish on the list for several years and her income would move above the income limit.  She has now left our DEIS school to take up a job in the Midlands. No one applied to replace her.


They will qualify if they meet the income requirements and receive a Hap payment. I would say there is a lack of knowledge available about their entitlements in general. Aa a single person earning 50k gross most likely thinks the Hap scheme is only for those on social welfare and people working in reasonable good employment dont qualify.


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## Threadser (17 Dec 2022)

Cavanbhoy said:


> They will qualify if they meet the income requirements and receive a Hap payment. I would say there is a lack of knowledge available about their entitlements in general. Aa a single person earning 50k gross most likely thinks the Hap scheme is only for those on social welfare and people working in reasonable good employment dont qualify.


Thanks for the advice. I will definitely spread the word about that. Anything that can be done to stem the exodus of staff is worth a try because we are in crises. No substitute staff and children with SEN being left without their support teachers as they are being re-deployed to cover mainstream classes.


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## Purple (19 Dec 2022)

BoscoTalking said:


> If the cities and towns in Ireland had decent dependable transport that supported local hospitals, schools etc it would be better for *everyone* and those whose salaries didn’t stretch could live a little further out and still commute like they do in other countries, namely the UK.
> 
> Nurses and other hospital staff are travelling long distances to Dublin from Carlow, Wexford and Meath to city centre hospitals to work 12 hour days and pay for parking (or have to park a walk away where they are not accompanied in the dark ) are indeed the unsung hero’s - how they break even after they pay the diesel is beyond me. And I know a few of them and I wonder is it a mixture of vocation, pride, bloody mindedness or whatever that keeps them driving on in all weather, through COVID and all the rest.  But I guess they do this to be able to own their own home and not rent forever.
> The strong unions will press for these for their members - fair enough, but as a member of private sector I’ed rather see better transport services for workers first, where we could all benefit.


Unsung might be stretching it. Every time I read a paper or turn on the radio there's a nurse on telling the world how brilliant that are, how hard they have it and how under paid they are. There are lots of people commuting and working long days. Many of them get paid far less than nurses and aren't the beneficiary of a heavily subsidised third level education. Of they work in construction they are at a far higher risk of injury or death, have far more difficult working conditions, have far worse terms an conditions, work much longer hours and are doing essential work. They also don't do nearly as much moaning. 

I do agree that better public transport is important and that their employer should provide parking for nurses while they are working.


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## KOW (19 Dec 2022)

Purple said:


> Unsung might be stretching it. Every time I read a paper or turn on the radio there's a nurse on telling the world how brilliant that are, how hard they have it and how under paid they are. There are lots of people commuting and working long days. Many of them get paid far less than nurses and aren't the beneficiary of a heavily subsidised third level education. Of they work in construction they are at a far higher risk of injury or death, have far more difficult working conditions, have far worse terms an conditions, work much longer hours and are doing essential work. They also don't do nearly as much moaning.
> 
> I do agree that better public transport is important and that their employer should provide parking for nurses while they are working.


Totally agree Purple. Sick hearing about nurses and teachers and their vocation and entitlement above others. Retired now from disability sector. 20 yrs from changing nappies on old people to looking after the most extreme and violent behaviour. 
Worked hard enjoyed the work at times and found it difficult and dangerous other times. Very few working  have it easy nowdays. That includes all workers. To continually benchmark off teachers and nurses some who have it difficult but most who have it better than the majority is wrong.


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## Leo (19 Dec 2022)

Threadser said:


> That doesn't mean the analysis in it is correct. Davy blotted it's own copybook pretty badly if I am not mistaken.


What in it are you suggesting is not correct?


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## Leo (19 Dec 2022)

Threadser said:


> but that is not an option for many urban based essential jobs.


Exactly, that's the whole point. teachers only make up a small number of such jobs, and they are better paid than many of them.


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## Itchy (19 Dec 2022)

Leo said:


> What in it are you suggesting is not correct?





> The Davy study is at odds with a recent Central Statistics Office (CSO) paper


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## Purple (19 Dec 2022)

Threadser said:


> Thanks for the advice. I will definitely spread the word about that. Anything that can be done to stem the exodus of staff is worth a try because we are in crises. No substitute staff and children with SEN being left without their support teachers as they are being re-deployed to cover mainstream classes.


It's quite remarkable that teachers are still allowed to take career breaks in these circumstances. A friend of mine who is a recently retired teachers has been giving out about that for years. She said that contractually  career breaks are only meant to be authorised if a suitable and suitably qualified replacement can be found. That's clearly not the case at the moment.


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## Leo (19 Dec 2022)

> The Davy study is at odds with a recent Central Statistics Office (CSO) paper



That was addressed already, if you read it you'll be aware that the CSO report confirms that those on the lower rungs of salary structures in the public sector are better paid than those in the private sector.

Unless of course you think that it is CEOs and the like who are most in need of support?


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## Peanuts20 (19 Dec 2022)

I worked for a high street bank in the UK for many years in the 90's, we had "big city" allowances in our contracts, in effect, if you worked in London, you got an extra £3200, Manchester it was perhaps half of that etc etc. It was a competitive industry for staff so you had to pay to attract and retain. I'm surprised this never seems to have been applied here

As for "key worker", I think the issue here will be that in everyone's mind, they are a "key worker". We also are a nation of begrudgers, if the teachers get it, then the teaching assistants must get it, then the creche assistants and on from there.


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## Threadser (19 Dec 2022)

Leo said:


> What in it are you suggesting is not correct?


I haven't read the report. Have you a link? If I get very bored some evening I might.


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## Threadser (19 Dec 2022)

Peanuts20 said:


> I worked for a high street bank in the UK for many years in the 90's, we had "big city" allowances in our contracts, in effect, if you worked in London, you got an extra £3200, Manchester it was perhaps half of that etc etc. It was a competitive industry for staff so you had to pay to attract and retain. I'm surprised this never seems to have been applied here
> 
> As for "key worker", I think the issue here will be that in everyone's mind, they are a "key worker". We also are a nation of begrudgers, if the teachers get it, then the teaching assistants must get it, then the creche assistants and on from there.


All workers in London get a London Allowance. It is graded depending on how near you work to the city centre. It has worked well there for decades. Really think we need to consider something similar here for Dublin.


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## Threadser (19 Dec 2022)

Purple said:


> It's quite remarkable that teachers are still allowed to take career breaks in these circumstances. A friend of mine who is a recently retired teachers has been giving out about that for years. She said that contractually  career breaks are only meant to be authorised if a suitable and suitably qualified replacement can be found. That's clearly not the case at the moment.


It isn't the case at the moment, but restricting career breaks would do nothing to solve the current shortage. Those who want to leave can do so anyway and can return and pick up a job of their choosing as there is such demand. If a school wants to retain a particular teacher it makes sense to grant them a career break. Then you have some hope they may return to your school. Otherwise they will resign and go to the hundreds of other schools that will have vacancies when they return.


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## Threadser (19 Dec 2022)

Leo said:


> Exactly, that's the whole point. teachers only make up a small number of such jobs, and they are better paid than many of them.


We can ignore the problem until Saoirse or Cian has no teacher for their honours maths class in Dublin and risks not getting the points they need for medicine. Then there will be uproar!


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## becky (19 Dec 2022)

Threadser said:


> All workers in London get a London Allowance. It is graded depending on how near you work to the city centre. It has worked well there for decades. Really think we need to consider something similar here for Dublin.


Over 20 years working in HSE recruitment, the idea of a "allowance" has been floated since then. But nurses are not the only grade working in hospital. When I tell someibe I work in X hospital l, I immediately follow it with a, no I'm not a nurse.

We have low paid admin, medical scientists, HCAs etc. The salary improves after 4 or 5 years.


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## Purple (20 Dec 2022)

becky said:


> Over 20 years working in HSE recruitment, the idea of a "allowance" has been floated since then. But nurses are not the only grade working in hospital. When I tell someibe I work in X hospital l, I immediately follow it with a, no I'm not a nurse.
> 
> We have low paid admin, medical scientists, HCAs etc. The salary improves after 4 or 5 years.


But everyone in administration in a hospital is lazy and part of the problem and all nurses are selfless hardworking heroes. Did you not get the memo?


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## Leo (20 Dec 2022)

Threadser said:


> I haven't read the report. Have you a link? If I get very bored some evening I might.


Oh why waste your time when you can just continue to base your argument on false assumptions and cast doubts on a report you haven't read!!


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## Leo (20 Dec 2022)

Threadser said:


> We can ignore the problem until Saoirse or Cian has no teacher for their honours maths class in Dublin and risks not getting the points they need for medicine. Then there will be uproar!


I don't think anyone has suggested we ignore the problem, but few would agree that teachers are more deserving or more in need of supports than other lower paid sectors of the workforce.


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## Threadser (20 Dec 2022)

Leo said:


> I don't think anyone has suggested we ignore the problem, but few would agree that teachers are more deserving or more in need of supports than other lower paid sectors of the workforce.


At no point did I suggest that either...but most sensible people would recognise that a continued shortage of teachers will cause significant disruption if it isn't addressed.


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## Threadser (20 Dec 2022)

Leo said:


> Oh why waste your time when you can just continue to base your argument on false assumptions and cast doubts on a report you haven't read!!


Because we cannot assume any single report is an accurate reflection or comparison.


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## Purple (20 Dec 2022)

Threadser said:


> At no point did I suggest that either...but most sensible people would recognise that a continued shortage of teachers will cause significant disruption if it isn't addressed.


A solution would be to give subsidised housing to construction workers since it is the shortage of skilled labour in that area which is the main constraint on housing supply. If we addressed that issue then housing would become cheaper and nurses and teachers and the other front line heroes would be able to afford housing.


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## Leo (20 Dec 2022)

Threadser said:


> Because we cannot assume any single report is an accurate reflection or comparison.


Yet without reading it you dismissed it and sought to cast doubts over Davy as a whole based on the actions of a few. 

The CSO and other reports continue to confirm that public servants including teachers on the lower rungs of the grade structures are better paid than those in the private sector. Unless you can point to evidence to the contrary, let's move on.


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## Threadser (20 Dec 2022)

Purple said:


> A solution would be to give subsidised housing to construction workers since it is the shortage of skilled labour in that area which is the main constraint on housing supply. If we addressed that issue then housing would become cheaper and nurses and teachers and the other front line heroes would be able to afford housing.





Leo said:


> Yet without reading it you dismissed it and sought to cast doubts over Davy as a whole based on the actions of a few.
> 
> The CSO and other reports continue to confirm that public servants including teachers on the lower rungs of the grade structures are better paid than those in the private sector. Unless you can point to evidence to the contrary, let's move on.


Agree we need to move on and accept that there is a whole cohort of workers that are unable to afford to rent affordable or buy in Dublin. Trying to assert that it isn't an issue for some public sector workers because they are paid more than their private sector counterparts is a pointless argument. It is an issue and urban areas need these essential services.


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## Purple (20 Dec 2022)

Threadser said:


> Agree we need to move on and accept that there is a whole cohort of workers that are unable to afford to rent affordable or buy in Dublin. Trying to assert that it isn't an issue for some public sector workers because they are paid more than their private sector counterparts is a pointless argument. It is an issue and urban areas need these essential services.


Yep, so it's disingenuous of Union leaders in the public sector to poor-mouth about relatively well paid employees while ignoring those who are on low pay. It's also deeply disingenuous to assert that they are more essential or important that people who do other jobs and, given the tragic events in Lebanon this week, describing them as working on the front line is in extremely bad taste. 

I know that Unions are there to advance the short term interests of their members and, in the case of public sector unions, to protect the haves from the have-nots, but even taking that into account I find their falsehoods and cynical opportunism nauseating.


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## Cavanbhoy (21 Dec 2022)

The state already makes an allowance towards rental costs in Dublin compared to elsewhere eg you can avail of Hap in Dublin as a single person if you net income is 35k or less in Carlow the limit is 30k net. Both to increase by 5k in new year. 
There is rental support there already.
Would a Dublin allowance apply to renters only or homeowners too?
Would a homeowner mortgage free who was classed as an essential worker qualify?
Would giving an allowance not just push up rents?


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## Threadser (21 Dec 2022)

Cavanbhoy said:


> The state already makes an allowance towards rental costs in Dublin compared to elsewhere eg you can avail of Hap in Dublin as a single person if you net income is 35k or less in Carlow the limit is 30k net. Both to increase by 5k in new year.
> There is rental support there already.
> Would a Dublin allowance apply to renters only or homeowners too?
> Would a homeowner mortgage free who was classed as an essential worker qualify?
> Would giving an allowance not just push up rents?


The London weighting applies to the location of the job not the circumstances of the employee. There is no guarantee it would work in Dublin or other cities but it could be worth investigating.


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## fliball123 (22 Dec 2022)

I think the nail has been hit on the head by one poster. Giving an allowance gives one cohort of workers an advantage over everyone else. We need as many private sector workers as public sector workers in Dublin and in other major cities.. IMO we should incentivize housing for construction workers in the areas that need it and not just Irish ones. I would have an Irish passport ready for any foreign worker who is willing to relocate and spend 5 years building in the country. This would tackle the disease and not thinker around with the symptoms. The only way our country can work for us is if we have more housing.


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