# car accident who is at fault



## cintec (5 Aug 2012)

driving along on a road 2 lanes 1 is a bus lane I look in left mirror as I know the bus lane ends in about 20 feet see a car who is behind me so I continue along.

The car obviously doesn't know this road too well and speeds up by the time he realises the bus lane ends he has gone into my passenger door. Minor damage wing mirror, door handle and some damage to the body work( too dark to see damage)

This was my first ever crash too be honest with the adrenaline rush I was shaking  the guy starts yelling at me saying I sped up obviously trying to blame me I asked him was he insured(he is) so I told him to calm down were both insured.

A car that was behind us both witnessed the accident and stopped I never asked them a question they just said " I saw what happened you were ahead and he was driving like a lunatic" apparently he had gone past them moments earlier.

I exchanged details the third party is a limo and I assume the company would have fleet insurance I didn't ask him if his passengers were ok although since they all surrounded me I presume they were.


While I feel it wasn't my fault I don't know if I could have avoided the collision, I have called my insurance already will the insurance company side with me can't really afford to lose my NCB although it's out of my hands.


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## AlbacoreA (5 Aug 2012)

I hope you got the details of the witness.


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## cintec (5 Aug 2012)

Yes I got there name and number


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## Sn@kebite (5 Aug 2012)

Didn't you call the Guards straght after the collision? My understanding is they must be alerted by law but I could be wrong about that.

Also I guess it sounds wrong that he was in a Bus Lane trying to turn out, the authorities would probably want to know why he was driving in a Bus Lane and it may be obvious that he panicked when he saw the end of the bus lane, that's when he swerved out and hit you. But it so much easier for the guards/court to get an idea when you call them.


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## peteb (5 Aug 2012)

Its not.  Gardai rarely make any decision on liability on the matter.  When they show they state that they are only there to check everyone has insurance and drivers licence.


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## john martin (5 Aug 2012)

If he was driving a limo he may have a taxi licence and be entitled to be in bus lane. However on the face of it it sounds like his fault as he changed direction without due care and attention and you were simply driving in a straight line. Try to get some sort of witness statement.


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## JohnJay (5 Aug 2012)

Sn@kebite said:


> Didn't you call the Guards straght after the collision? My understanding is they must be alerted by law but I could be wrong about that.



Only if somebody is hurt


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## cintec (5 Aug 2012)

I called the guards they wouldn't come out unless  someone was hurt told me to exchange information 
The guy was in the bus lane because he is a limo it was late in the evening so he would have been allowed in it after 7pm anyway.

Will the insurance company be able to tell who is at fault by looking at the damage


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## alexandra123 (5 Aug 2012)

Is it not the responsibility of the person changing lanes to make sure that they have enough room to do so whilst also giving other drivers enough indication and warning that they are moving into a different lane ?


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## Brendan Burgess (5 Aug 2012)

Just to clarify ...

It was not a bus lane,because it was after 7 pm, so this is irrelevant. 

The inside lane came to a stop and he had to pull out into the main lane. 

You were in the main lane, and he drove into you. 

Based on this understanding, you did nothing wrong - he had to wait for a gap in the lane to pull out. 

*Do the two lanes merge into one lane, where neither lane continues? 
*
You say that the "bus lane ends in about 20 feet". Did your lane end as well? 

It's less clear cut, but if the front of his car went into your passenger side, then you were ahead and he should have waited.

If the witness says that he was speeding, then you have little to worry about. 

It's very difficult for a professional driver to admit responsibility so they always blame the other party, and often quite aggressively. You need to stand up to him. 

In the event of an accident, you should remain calm even if the other guy is going mad. Don't accept blame or blame the other. See can you agree on the facts. Then write them down and get both parties to sign them. Then let the insurance companies work out who is to blame.


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## DrMoriarty (5 Aug 2012)

alexandra123 said:


> Is it not the responsibility of the person changing lanes to make sure that they have enough room to do so whilst also giving other drivers enough indication and warning that they are moving into a different lane ?


It is, but on the basis of my own experience I would urge the OP not to assume that the insurance company will actually care too much about who was in the wrong. It suits them to agree (without your involvement or assent) a 60/40 or 70/30 deal which allows them to lower the NCB on both parties). They will only advise you of this afterwards, unless you act. 

If I was you, I wouldn't be talking in terms of "could I have possibly done something to avoid the collision?". Sure you could; you could have swerved over the white line onto the wrong side of the road, for example. It sounds like the guy was quite aggressive, too — why did all the passengers "surround" you? — and it's likely he'll contest it. So make sure to contact that witness and ask them for a written statement, and advise your own insurer in writing that you attribute the accident 100% to the other driver (and have a witness) and that you admit (and have admitted) no liability.

_Edit: post crossed with Brendan's._


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## cintec (5 Aug 2012)

Brendan Burgess said:


> The inside lane came to a stop and he had to pull out into the main lane.
> 
> You were in the main lane, and he drove into you.
> 
> ...



I don't have a picture of the lane but the bus lane narrows the lane I was in doesn't I didn't have to cross the white dividing line where he would have, if he was ahead I would have slowed and let him move over. He should have slowed down and moved accross behind me but instead he accelerated and tried to pass I don't think he spotted that the bus lane ended.

I have a big tyre mark on my rear passenger door where he hit me.

He kept trying to get me to accept blame which I wouldn't discuss with him my only reply was that I would let my insurance deal with it.

I was never in an accident before so I probably made several mistakes I have his details and the details of the witness and nothing else I didn't discuss the accident with the third party.

@DrMoriarty when I say surrounded I basically was looking at the damage to my car when all of the passengers got out and surrounded my car obviously wanting to have a look at the damage they were all drinking and just wanted to get to whatever party they were originally going to.

I think he will contest the crash I don't know if there was much if any damage to his car it was dark and with those big tyres on a hummer he may have got no damage maybe scraped an alloy.


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## cintec (5 Aug 2012)

Should I contact the company that the driver worked for? at the very least I was thinking I should confirm his details and give them mine or will my insurance do this


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## DrMoriarty (5 Aug 2012)

No, just provide all the details to your own insurer, fill in the accident report form they give you, and make sure they understand that you wish to claim against the other driver's insurance. If you have comprehensive insurance yourself, they may suggest that you claim now against your own insurance "to speed things up", with the idea that your NCB will be restored *if*/when the claim is settled by the other company. 

Unless you're in a huge hurry, I would resist the temptation to do this and would press the other insurance company to settle the claim within a reasonable time.


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## Sue Ellen (5 Aug 2012)

cintec said:


> Should I contact the company that the driver worked for? at the very least I was thinking I should confirm his details and give them mine or will my insurance do this



Best to confirm with your insurance company that they will do this.  Once you have reported the claim to them it is best to let them deal with the matter and you keep in touch with them regularly to check how the claim is progressing.


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## cintec (5 Aug 2012)

DrMoriarty said:


> No, just provide all the details to your own insurer, fill in the accident report form they give you, and make sure they understand that you wish to claim against the other driver's insurance. If you have comprehensive insurance yourself, they may suggest that you claim now against your own insurance "to speed things up", with the idea that your NCB will be restored *if*/when the claim is settled by the other company.
> 
> Unless you're in a huge hurry, I would resist the temptation to do this and would press the other insurance company to settle the claim within a reasonable time.


 
I was thinking that if I spoke with the manager or owner that they might accept liability and prefer to pay for the repairs rather than going through insurance.
Even if they wanted to contest it then the insurance companies could sort it out.


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## Brendan Burgess (5 Aug 2012)

I don't think you should report it to your insurance company, yet at least.

You should be claiming against him and not your own insurance company.

If he claims against your insurance company, it would be different.

Get an estimate and send it to his employer together with the witness statement. 

Brendan


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## cintec (5 Aug 2012)

Brendan Burgess said:


> I don't think you should report it to your insurance company, yet at least.
> 
> You should be claiming against him and not your own insurance company.
> 
> ...


 
I have already informed my insurance company there out of hours service took my details and someone will be calling me back on Tuesday.


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## cintec (5 Aug 2012)

looking at the car today it appears that the only damage is the wing mirror and the door handle the paint work look ok there is alot of rubber from the limos tyres I haven't tried to wash it off as it is proof that he hit into the side of me.


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## Sn@kebite (5 Aug 2012)

JohnJay said:


> Only if somebody is hurt


Thanks, I had a suspicion based on sometimes it does not hurt until lthe next morning.  But yes you are right it seems.



cintec said:


> I have already informed my insurance company there out of hours service took my details and someone will be calling me back on Tuesday.


I find if anything can go wrong it will, at the weekend or a bank holiday!

Hope it works out for you. PS I didn't know limos can go in a bus lane, I must watch out for them.


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## daisydukes (7 Aug 2012)

Sounds like the limo driver's fault to me


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## shesells (7 Aug 2012)

At the end of some/most bus lanes where they merge into a normal traffic lane there is a painted yield triangle on the road, that or arrows directing the driver into traffic. Were there such markings? A yield would confirm the limo driver's liability, an arrow might indicate to merge with the traffic lane and would give a sign of priority.


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## Guest125 (8 Aug 2012)

It's very difficult for a professional driver to admit responsibility so  they always blame the other party, and often quite aggressively. You  need to stand up to him. Thats a very sweeping statement,yes I am a professional driver. Limo's aren't allowed in bus lanes anytime.


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## callybags (9 Aug 2012)

Brendan Burgess said:


> I don't think you should report it to your insurance company, yet at least.
> 
> You should be claiming against him and not your own insurance company.
> 
> ...


 
Brendan

As far as I know, all insurance policies oblige you to inform them of any accident you are involved in, regardless of fault.

At least any policies I have had have this clause.


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## Brendan Burgess (9 Aug 2012)

callybags said:


> Brendan
> 
> As far as I know, all insurance policies oblige you to inform them of any accident you are involved in, regardless of fault.
> 
> At least any policies I have had have this clause.



OK,

So do you report it and say - I will not be claiming on my policy. I will be claiming for damage to my car from him or his insurance company? 

I would just be worried that one would lose one's no claims bonus while a claim was "pending". 

Brendan


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## callybags (9 Aug 2012)

Brendan Burgess said:


> OK,
> 
> So do you report it and say - I will not be claiming on my policy. I will be claiming for damage to my car from him or his insurance company?
> 
> ...


 
I had this very situation earlier this year.

It was fairly obvious that the third party was 100% at fault.

I first rang my insurance and told them the story. They sent me out a claim form which I completed. Part of the claim form asked who did I think was at fault.

They said that as I had comprehensive cover, they would look after the claim on my behalf without any effect on my no-claims bonus.

I had the option of having my car repaired under my comprehensive cover, but this would have risked my no-claims in the case of them not recovering the full amount for any reason.

It all worked out very smoothly in the end.

Having third party cover only might be a completely different story, but the obligation is still there to report to your insurance.


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## chrisboy (9 Aug 2012)

Brendan Burgess said:


> OK,
> 
> 
> I would just be worried that one would lose one's no claims bonus while a claim was "pending".
> ...




Yes, you would lose it until claim is sorted.


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## Seagull (9 Aug 2012)

The best option in a situation like this is to report it to your insurance company, but tell them that you are not currently planning to claim through them. That way, you are in a position to put in a claim if needs be. If you don't notify them, and then try to make a claim in connection with that accident, you will be told where to go.


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## cintec (9 Aug 2012)

**Update**

I have contacted my insurance company as i'm fully comp they can fix my car but I would lose my bonus until they can win against the other guy.

Since I want to claim against the driver I have to contact his insurance company but it appears I will have to do all the work my insurance company have washed there hands of it unless I claim off my own policy or the third party claims which so far he hasn't.

Now I have a problem I got the third parties policy number but not his insurance company my insurance company cannot find the name of the company from the policy number alone.

I have repeatidly contacted the company the driver works for but they haven't/won't return my calls I will have to go to the garda and present my details only then will they contact the driver and he will then be forced to do the same (I don't know why a company won't give me the name of there insurance company)

*I taught my insurance company would do the work i didn't think I would have to do much except fill in a form.*


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## Brendan Burgess (9 Aug 2012)

Your insurance company insures you against claims against you. 

You are making a claim against someone else. Your insurance company has nothing to do with it.


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## cintec (9 Aug 2012)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Your insurance company insures you against claims against you.
> 
> You are making a claim against someone else. Your insurance company has nothing to do with it.


 
Thats what I understand from talking with my insurance company I just taught they would represent me and go to the other insurance company as it would be in there interest for me to win so they don't have to pay out.

It seems like I have to do alot to sort this out myself one of the reasons for this is because I didn't get all the information required at least I have learned from it.


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## serotoninsid (9 Aug 2012)

cintec said:


> It seems like I have to do alot to sort this out myself one of the reasons for this is because I didn't get all the information required at least I have learned from it.


You need to contact the other parties insurance co. - and work from there.  Write down EXACTLY what happened - blow by blow - for your own records first.  Then take detailed notes of all correspondence with the insurance company (or companies).

Maybe go back to the site of the accident and take some digital pics - then edit them - and input details of accident - i.e. exact (or as near exact) location of your vehicle - and his vehicle - when he impacted you.


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## DrMoriarty (10 Aug 2012)

Brendan Burgess said:


> You are making a claim against someone else. Your insurance company has nothing to do with it.


My insurance policy stipulates that I *must *notify them immediately of any loss or incident likely to lead to a claim, whether my fault or not. 





cintec said:


> ...it appears I will have to do all the work my insurance company have washed there hands of it unless I claim off my own policy or the third party claims which so far he hasn't.
> [...]
> 
> *I taught my insurance company would do the work i didn't think I would have to do much except fill in a form.*


Check your policy schedule and renewal notice to see if your premium includes an element for claims handling (on my own policy it's called a 'Claimsafe' policy and is an optional extra for €40-ish which I invariably decline (if I were to have to claim, I'd rather look after it myself than leave it up to a company which is in the pay of the insurance companies).

If you _have _such an extra, then contact the claim handlers and let them do the job you've paid for. As regards the limo company refusing to provide insurance details, you should advise them in writing that if they don't comply within a reasonable time you will refer the matter to your legal representatives.


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## cintec (10 Aug 2012)

**another update

The limo company still refuse to give me details and won't call me back.

I have contacted MIBI who informed me that the car doesn't have insurance according to there records and but gave me the name of the insurance company the policy is with.

I have contacted them and they have said that policy expired in 2010 I will be going to the guards on my break today to report this.


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## serotoninsid (10 Aug 2012)

cintec said:


> **another update
> 
> The limo company still refuse to give me details and won't call me back.
> 
> ...


Exactly - go straight to the guards asap.


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## cintec (11 Aug 2012)

I have been to the guards and they are insured they have been stopped several times so the guards had there details on file and gave them to me.

I have contacted there insurance and logged a claim against them they hadn't even told there insurance company that they were involved in a crash.


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## serotoninsid (11 Aug 2012)

cintec said:
			
		

> I have been to the guards and they are insured they have been stopped several times so the guards had there details on file and gave them to me.
> I have contacted there insurance and logged a claim against them they hadn't even told there insurance company that they were involved in a crash.


Can you not impress on the gardai that this needs to be investigated on the basis of driving without due care?  You need some way to get that witness statement cast in stone.  Once you do that - together with the clarity of your own account of the accident, you should be fine.  However, be mindful of both insurance companies - not just theirs - also, your own.  Ensure that you are very very clear with them - that your position is that in NO way are you liable - and in no way do you consent to a claim being made against your insurance policy.  If the other party challenges this - then you will both end up with significantly higher insurance premiums until such time as it's all sorted out - and if it goes legal, who knows how long that will take.

In the meantime, at the next opportunity that its convenient for you - go ahead and get a written estimate for repairs necessary to return the vehicle to its previous state pre-accident.


			
				cintec said:
			
		

> He kept trying to get me to accept blame which I wouldn't discuss with him my only reply was that I would let my insurance deal with it.



I bet he did - the moment you admitted liability, you would have been in trouble.


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## peteb (11 Aug 2012)

serotoninsid said:


> . Ensure that you are very very clear with them - that your position is that in NO way are you liable - and in no way do you consent to a claim being made against your insurance policy. .


 
You dont have to consent to a claim being made against your policy.  Your insurer can go ahead and settle a claim should they decide that your are liable regardless of what you say.


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## DrMoriarty (11 Aug 2012)

That's correct, but if they were to do so in the face of written reports, a witness statement and other evidence pointing to a clear-cut case of 100% liability on the other driver's part, the OP would have a very strong case for appealing it successfully to the Financial Services Ombudsman.

Insurance companies typically account for [broken link removed] of all complaints to the FSO. I don't know how many of them are upheld.


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## Complainer (12 Aug 2012)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Just to clarify ...
> 
> It was not a bus lane,because it was after 7 pm, so this is irrelevant.



Not all bus lanes finish at 7pm - times vary, some run for 24 hours.


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## Brendan Burgess (14 Aug 2012)

cintec said:


> I called the guards they wouldn't come out unless  someone was hurt told me to exchange information
> The guy was in the bus lane because he is a limo it was late in the evening so he would have been allowed in it after 7pm anyway.
> 
> Will the insurance company be able to tell who is at fault by looking at the damage



I took it from this post,that this particular lane ended at 7 pm


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## Complainer (14 Aug 2012)

Brendan Burgess said:


> I took it from this post,that this particular lane ended at 7 pm



Sorry - missed that bit.


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## cintec (5 Nov 2012)

Just to update this thread with a conclusion.....


Once I got the 3rd parties insurance company I filed a claim against them 


The limo company didn't respond to their own insurance company’s calls or letters and since they only had my story of events they have process the claim in my favour  


Not sure why they wouldn't respond to the claim since there insured they could have gotten their car repaired but that’s there decision.


The car is being collected this week for repairs €600 for parts with a total repair bill in the region of €2500 which to me seemed excessive as it didn't look like there was much damage but I’m not a mechanic.


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## serotoninsid (5 Nov 2012)

cintec said:


> The car is being collected this week for repairs €600 for parts with a total repair bill in the region of €2500 which to me seemed excessive as it didn't look like there was much damage but I’m not a mechanic.


It doesn't have to look like much to cost plenty.  In addition to that, once the garage knows it's an insurance job, you can be sure there won't be any mercy shown on the pricing side of things.


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