# SOLAS to replace FÁS as training agency



## Guest105 (27 Jul 2011)

Many will agree that this change is very welcome.



> The new body will replace FÁS, which is to be disbanded. SOLAS stands for Seirbhísí Oideachais Leanunaigh Agus Scileanna.
> Functions previously carried out by FÁS will now be taken over on a 50/50 basis by both the Department of Social Protection and the Department of Education.
> The Department of Social Protection will take responsibility for programmes such as the community employment schemes, while further education and training areas will go to the Department of Education & Skills.
> There will be a much greater role for the VECs, which will now take over the running of many courses currently provided by FÁS.


 
However the dampner for me comes with this quote



> Members of the board of FÁS have been invited to serve out their time as members of the new SOLAS board.


 
http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0727/solas.html

In light of the poor performance of FAS in the past, I am inclined to think that a new Board would have been more in tune with the changes.

Can somebody translate 'Seirbhísí Oideachais Leanunaigh Agus Scileanna' ?


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## micmclo (27 Jul 2011)

I remember ANCO, feeling old


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## boaber (27 Jul 2011)

cashier said:


> Can somebody translate 'Seirbhísí Oideachais Leanunaigh Agus Scileanna' ?



According to Google Translate it means 'Continuing Education And Skills Services'


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## Newbie! (27 Jul 2011)

What about all the current FAS staff? Will they be carried over to the new agency or some of them let go? There can't be enough current training to sustain the current level of staff can there?


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## Knuttell (27 Jul 2011)

> Members of the board of FÁS have been invited to serve out their time as members of the new SOLAS board.



An expensive exercise in stupidity & futility,it would be somewhat similar to bailing out Anglo at massive cost to the taxpayer and leaving Drumm,Fitzpatrick and chums on the board of directors.

Why bother.


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## Lex Foutish (28 Jul 2011)

micmclo said:


> I remember ANCO, feeling old


 
With you there, Micmclo! I still refer to a few buildings in Cork as AnCo buildings!


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## Deiseblue (28 Jul 2011)

Newbie! said:


> What about all the current FAS staff? Will they be carried over to the new agency or some of them let go? There can't be enough current training to sustain the current level of staff can there?



Under the terms of the Croke Park Agreement there can be no enforced redundancies.

The options for FAS employees are to move to Solas , redeployment & if applicable avail of a voluntary redundancy package.


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## liaconn (28 Jul 2011)

cashier said:


> Many will agree that this change is very welcome.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
They did appoint a new board to FAS about a year ago and sacked the existing board.


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## onq (28 Jul 2011)

Reminds me of the name of a defunct light bulb product.

Hardly going to shed light on an old problem.

"Now you have to work for your dole" says Ruairí Quinn on last night's News, "and look, here's a shiny new place to pretend this is a positive thing!" Or words to that effect.

So we'll end up with a workforce working for dole rates + €50, or in the case of new "trainees" apparently its dole rates + €6, which wouldn't cover your transport unless you're "on yer bike" or jogging to work. "And so you should be young man - it'll help you get rid of your hangover from the night before and its hard to smoke fags on a bike!"

The right-wingers on this forum may see this as an improvement on the surface, because it may cut out the less experienced dole dodgers, but all it will do is make it harder for companies who pay wages and sole traders to compete.

And it doesn't tackle the problem of dole fraud head-on because let's face it, some of them might be in organized crime and start threatening politicians.

We've seen these "internships" and "work experience" employer scams making their appearance in the architectural profession.

[broken link removed]

Now the minister has institutionalized it, and all it will do is cut the bottom out of the labour market - again!

In an economy with jobs I'd see it increasing skills and getting useful qualification as positive, but there are FETAC LEVEL 8 professionals on the dole, fergoodnessakes!

So who benefits from re-training as lower and middle managers for dole + €50?
The employers, who then have a sea of over-qualified talent to pick from.
All hungry ot exercise their new found talents on unlucky employees.
We're becoming more right wing than the American Republicans!

ONQ.


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## Sunny (28 Jul 2011)

onq said:


> We're becoming more right wing than the American Republicans!
> 
> ONQ.


 
If you want right wing, there is a story on the front page of the FT this morning where David Cameron's strategy director calls for the scrapping of job centres, maternity leave and consumer rights!


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## Firefly (28 Jul 2011)

Whatever about this rebranding excersize, a major problem seems to be the provision of adequate training. Lots of anecdotal evidence of people getting offered courses they have no interest in. Why not make all courses payable by those taking them upon re-entry to the workforce, with Solas paying for the upfront costs? I'm sure the courses offered in this scenario would be a lot more relevant and the prices charged a lot lower.


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## Staples (28 Jul 2011)

The full text of the Minister's announcement is here.

http://www.education.ie/home/home.j...251&language=EN&link=link001&page=1&doc=54506

In fairness, it's a step in the right direction although much depends on the extent to which the plan for the new agency becomes a reality. There's reason to be hopeful at least.

It offers a new focus in that the emphasis will be on skills that are needed (as identified by the Expert Group on future Skills Needs) rather than those which FAS thought it was a good idea to provide. In the past, there has been a huge gulf between the two with the emphasis in FAS on spending its allocation rather than in achieving any particular training outcomes. 

In the past also, there has been an emphasis in FAS on what might be regared as blue collar, manual based occupations (particulalrly construction). This persevered even when it was clear that these industries were in decline. This blinkered approach has to change and this offers the opportunity to do so. 

If the new inititive does what it says, it will provide people with _relevant _skills that are linked to emerging job opportunities. The eventual integration of FAS staff into the VECs will also eliminate a duplication of services that exists at comunity level. 

The proposed linkage between welfare provion and training is nothing new and is already applied succussfully in many countries. If done properly, it can provide skilled workers capable of responding to industry needs. While many of the current unemployed may be highly skilled or educated, this counts for nothing if their skills are effectively redundant. This offers them tithe possibility at least of acquiring skills in areas for which there is a demand. If earnestly provided and managed properly, it need not turn into ther mere provision of cheap labour. 

Although changing the culture and mindset of an organisation as vast as FAS won't be an easy task and certainly won't happen quickly.


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## JP1234 (28 Jul 2011)

> Lots of anecdotal evidence of people getting offered courses they have  no interest in. Why not make all courses payable by those taking them  upon re-entry to the workforce,


Because some people are being forced to do useless irrelevant courses  seemingly to make Fas figures look good .

As for evidence, In speak from personal experience. I have "only" been out of work since March and was asked to attend a Fas interview to discuss my options. I asked to be put on a waiting list for some courses I had some experience and interest in but was told I had to chose another course that was immediately available or it may affect my JSB. So now I am doing a PC based course in a subject I have little experience and practically no interest in. I cannot do the course I wanted to do because it starts before this one ends and a person cannot be on 2 courses at once, even though the one I wanted to do is evening based.   Should I be expected to pay back this course I didn't want to do and frankly will do nothing to help my job prospects?  I have researched the employment in the area and there is little demand.

I agree that anyone who simply refuses to do any kind of training and resists attempts to help them find work should be penalised and I would happily pay for a course that I wanted to do, was relevant to my experience and/or interests and that helped me find work but I do not think people should have to pay for courses they are being forced onto to make Fas figures look good.


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## Firefly (28 Jul 2011)

JP1234 said:


> As for evidence, In speak from personal experience. I have "only" been out of work since March and was asked to attend a Fas interview to discuss my options. I asked to be put on a waiting list for some courses I had some experience and interest in but was told I had to chose another course that was immediately available or it may affect my JSB. So now I am doing a PC based course in a subject I have little experience and practically no interest in. I cannot do the course I wanted to do because it starts before this one ends and a person cannot be on 2 courses at once, even though the one I wanted to do is evening based.   *Should I be expected to pay back this course I didn't want to do and frankly will do nothing to help my job prospects? * I have researched the employment in the area and there is little demand.



Hi JP1234,

Apologies if I didn't make this clearer but this is exactly the opposite of what I propose. The public should be free to chose any course they wish from any approved provider they wish*. Solas would pay for the course upfront, you would then repay Solas upon re-entry to the work force. This way:



You are only going to take courses that you are interested in and are relevant.
The course providers would be much more aligned to the market conditions for the courses they provide
As the individual (rather than the state) would ultimately be paying for this course I would bet that the price of courses offered would be lower.

* approved provider list obtained from Solas - like the way the SEI insulation grants work via approved insulation providers


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## shnaek (28 Jul 2011)

So FAS has a new name, and new stationary -just like the HSE and the health boards. Big deal. It will make absolutely no difference, just more talk. Same people, same agency.


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## JP1234 (28 Jul 2011)

No problem Firefly. 

Your proposal is exactly how it should be and I hope with the gradual change of culture that may come, it should mean jobseekers are not being shunted onto courses for the sake of it. 

I have no idea why my course is approved either, it doesn't seem to have any relevance to anything, is produced by an American body, and seems to be geared towards the USA way of doing thing.The actual presentation is mainly looking a stills of people mid conversation with some flat generic voices reciting information. On top of that I had to spend nearly €50.00 on a book from Amazon UK as it wasn't available anywhere in Ireland.

I am finding myself zoning out every 15 minutes or so and my coffee intake has increased dramatically


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## Sunny (28 Jul 2011)

Firefly said:


> Hi JP1234,
> 
> Apologies if I didn't make this clearer but this is exactly the opposite of what I propose. The public should be free to chose any course they wish from any approved provider they wish*. Solas would pay for the course upfront, you would then repay Solas upon re-entry to the work force. This way:
> 
> ...


 
Interesting idea.


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## Sunny (28 Jul 2011)

JP1234 said:


> No problem Firefly.
> 
> Your proposal is exactly how it should be and I hope with the gradual change of culture that may come, it should mean jobseekers are not being shunted onto courses for the sake of it.
> 
> ...


 
Have heard plenty of similar stories including one person with knowledge of Visual Basic programming being sent on a excel course for beginners because it 'was on'. Another friend of mine was told to dumb down her CV because she was told she came across as a high achiever. God forbid! I actually don't know anyone who got a job through FAS. Most people I know that found themselves in that situation found employment by themselves.


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## JP1234 (28 Jul 2011)

Sunny said:


> Have heard plenty of similar stories including one person with knowledge of Visual Basic programming being sent on a excel course for beginners because it 'was on'. Another friend of mine was told to dumb down her CV because she was told she came across as a high achiever. God forbid! I actually don't know anyone who got a job through FAS. Most people I know that found themselves in that situation found employment by themselves.



They tried to put me on some Microsoft Office for Beginners course but I flatly refused.... I was told my CV was very "full" and I should scale it back.

The first course I asked to do I was told didn't exist, I had to go out into the main office and bring in the folder with the course details on to prove it did!

I don't know of a single person who has found work via FAS either and I told the person interviewing (sorry _consulting_ with)  me their advertised jobs were useless, she didn't exactly disagree!


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## Firefly (28 Jul 2011)

Sunny said:


> Have heard plenty of similar stories including one person with knowledge of Visual Basic programming being sent on a excel course for beginners because it 'was on'.
> Another friend of mine was told to dumb down her CV because she was told she came across as a high achiever. God forbid! I actually don't know anyone who got a job through FAS. Most people I know that found themselves in that situation found employment by themselves.



Such a waste of money for the taxpayer. So demoralising for those looking for work.


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## z107 (28 Jul 2011)

Maybe they should have renamed it Osram or FARSE.


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## truthseeker (28 Jul 2011)

Firefly said:


> Such a waste of money for the taxpayer. So demoralising for those looking for work.


 
Very much so, my OH is educated to Masters level, a former company director with 12 years very relevant experience in his chosen area. His FAS 'interview' consisted of a lady suggesting irrelevant courses (some of which didnt start for another 4 months), criticising his very professional CV, and suggesting work placements that were part of the 'slave labour' scheme - WPP1/WPP2.


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## Staples (28 Jul 2011)

In fairness, a lot of these inadequacies have been acknowledged and are partly the reason for the change in direction.

One of the functions of the new body will be to make training more relevant to the needs of industry and the capabilities of those seeking training.  Whether this happens remains to be seen but at least it's a change from the status quo.


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## Purple (28 Jul 2011)

onq said:


> Reminds me of the name of a defunct light bulb product.
> 
> Hardly going to shed light on an old problem.
> 
> ...



That’s probably why so many businesses are thriving; the owners are making huge profits and “exploiting” their employees in order to become even fatter fat-cats.
Yes, don’t let reality get in the way of a rant. 
How much is an hour of my time or your time worth? Easy, it’s worth exactly what someone is willing to pay for it. We may feel that we are superstars and should be paid accordingly but reality may not agree with us. 
FAS did some things well and other things very badly.
20 years ago it trained people to do jobs that were needed. Then it became a welfare scheme. That’s when the trouble started. 

Personally I’m not a fan of internships or other schemes like  that. Somebody with no skills is worth less than nothing to me, I’d rather pay them to go away than have them here for free taking up space and getting in the way. The cost of training someone where I work is well over €10 an hour. Their wage is not the issue. 20 years ago FAS ran really good apprentice training schemes but what they have now is a joke; I wouldn’t dream of sending anyone out to get trained by them.


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## Firefly (28 Jul 2011)

The spokesman on the last word yesterday evening said they would take about 18months to get properly set up and that they would look into all courses offered and their relevance. I think my idea is a lot more straightforward...let the public decide on the courses by getting them to (ultimately) pay for them. To see something like this in action all you have to do is look at how the CAO points for courses fluctuates with the economic state of particular industries. Colleges and universities adapt all the time with new offerings. Currently there is no incentive for the Excel training course provider to offer anything else if FAS are willing to pay for it.


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## Shawady (28 Jul 2011)

It seems to me that unemployed people ar just sent on training courses for the sake of it. Maybe it reduces the number officially 'on the dole'. 
There does not seem to be any joined up thinking. I have read that in certain areas (science, engineering) we have a skill shortage. There was a report in the paper last month that there are a couple of thousand job vacancies in american companies. Why can't the government talk to these employers and organise training that is targetted to specific job opportunities?


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## Firefly (28 Jul 2011)

Shawady said:


> It seems to me that unemployed people ar just sent on training courses for the sake of it. Maybe it reduces the number officially 'on the dole'.



Think you're onto something there  



Shawady said:


> There does not seem to be any joined up thinking. I have read that in certain areas (science, engineering) we have a skill shortage. There was a report in the paper last month that there are a couple of thousand job vacancies in american companies. Why can't the government talk to these employers and organise training that is targetted to specific job opportunities?



I'd wonder about that...I imagine that the skills required for these jobs are pretty specialised and that a lot of experience would also be required, so I'm not sure if they could be met by FAS/SOLAS.


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## Staples (28 Jul 2011)

Shawady said:


> There does not seem to be any joined up thinking. I have read that in certain areas (science, engineering) we have a skill shortage. There was a report in the paper last month that there are a couple of thousand job vacancies in american companies. Why can't the government talk to these employers and organise training that is targetted to specific job opportunities?


 
At the risk of repeating myself, this seems to be one of the functions of the new organisation.

i've studied thia area a bit in the past. The EU experience has typically been that while employers constantly bleat about the need to involved in designing workforce training, the reality is that they don't match the rhetoric with constructive input. The problem is particularly bad here.

While employers here like to have an available skilled workforce, they don't really see themselves as being part of a process that _leads_ to this (Purple's post refers). In Scandanavia and Germany, training begins as part of the school curriculum. Employers take on trainees/interns as part of what might be regarded as a social contract. The see the long term benefits beyond those that are immediatly realisable to their own bottom line. 

But then, they don't have a FAS overseeing the process.


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## Purple (28 Jul 2011)

We take school kids in on work experience during their 4th year but as some of what we do is potentially dangerous we have to be very careful what we let them do. There is no net gain for us but as much of our workforce is local it does help the local schools place pupils.
The only internship type programme we are involved with is with a big German car manufacturer; we take 2 or 3 of their apprentices for a month each summer. 
Very few of the skills we need are taught in schools in Ireland so there’s no benefit to either party to have a more structured approach.  

FAS are useless in that regard. They never attempt to link with us. They have never asked us what we need, if what they offer is of any use to us or if there is anything we could do together. 
The Institutes of Technology are great in that respect; really proactive and interested in linkages between industry and SME’s.


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## johnwilliams (29 Jul 2011)

the minister speech on tv stated retraining up to a certain age, then community schemes, what is this certain age


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## Purple (29 Jul 2011)

Firefly said:


> Think you're onto something there



Lol


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## Complainer (30 Jul 2011)

johnwilliams said:


> the minister speech on tv stated retraining up to a certain age, then community schemes, what is this certain age



I didn't see the speech, but that sounds unlikely to me. It would probably breach equality legislation to set particular rules based on age, and would go against the fairly well established principal of lifelong learning.


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## shnaek (12 Aug 2011)

Looks like people are being put through the same course twice with FAS:

http://www.independent.ie/national-...jobless-on-courses-a-second-time-2846482.html

"The practice means the number on the Live Register is kept artificially lower."

I wonder will it be a third time with SOLAS?


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