# Quinn Life is tiny...



## Brendan Burgess (28 Aug 2007)

*Here are the premium income figures for the various life insurance companies from the IIF Annual Report. They are at the very end of the PDF document.*
*Total*
Acorn Life 85m
Anglo Irish 479m
Ark Life 770m
BoI Life* 2284m
Caledonian 125,
Canada Life  590m
Eagle Star Life  751m
Friends First Life621m
Hibernian Life 983m
Irish Life 2199m
Quinn Life-Direct 37m
Royal Liver 257m
Scottish Provident 86m
Standard Life 459 m
*Total  9736342*
·          Bank of Ireland Life (including New Ireland Assurance)
 
Here are the specifice Quinn Life Figures 


Single premium investment: 15m
Pensions single premiums: 10m
Annual premiums                10m

Presumably some mid size investment advisors would be doing this amount of business?


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## CCOVICH (29 Aug 2007)

Are you surprised by this due to the fact that Quinn offer fairly good value/competitive life (investment) and motor policies?


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## ClubMan (29 Aug 2007)

CCOVICH said:


> Are you surprised by this due to the fact that Quinn offer fairly good value/competitive life (investment) and motor policies?


Yes - if they are good value for money then one would presumably expect them to be doing more investment business?

Any chance the much higher premium levels for the others reflects the fact that they are in business a lot longer than _QL _and thus probably have a lot more cumulative past business for which there are ongoing premiums rolling in (in addition to premiums representing new business each year)?


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## CCOVICH (29 Aug 2007)

ClubMan said:
			
		

> Yes - if they are good value for money then one would presumably expect them to be doing more investment business?



Indeed-Brendan wasn't clear on that point-I assume he started the thread because he was surprised by the numbers, but it's not clear......



			
				ClubMan said:
			
		

> Any chance the much higher premium levels for the others reflects the fact that they are in business a lot longer than _QL _and thus probably have a lot more cumulative past business for which there are ongoing premiums rolling in (in addition to premiums representing new business each year)?



Indeed!  The Irish are well known for their inertia on such things!

The fact that Quinn do not distribute their products through brokers etc. would also have a part to play maybe?


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## Brendan Burgess (29 Aug 2007)

> Any chance the much higher premium levels for the others reflects the fact that they are in business a lot longer than _QL _and thus probably have a lot more cumulative past business for which there are ongoing premiums rolling in (in addition to premiums representing new business each year)?



The figures in the report give separate figures for single premiums and annual premiums. It's a PDF, so I was unable to reproduce it here properly. 

Anyway, their single premium income was only €25m between pensions and life business. That is still tiny.

I posted it because it shows that Irish people are not shopping around. It also shows that brokers are a huge source of business. 

Brendan


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## DrMoriarty (29 Aug 2007)

I was surprised by the figures, too.

Wasn't there a piece in last week's _Sunday Times_ to the effect that QL were about to launch an aggressively-priced discounting scheme (whereby if you held motor or home insurance with them they'd knock lumps off your life premiums, and _vice versa_)? I know other insurers do this already, but IIRC this was to be something more than the 5-10% discount usually offered...

_[Post crossed with Brendan's. Morning!]_


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## z109 (29 Aug 2007)

They seem to be doing a three for two: if you have life and car insurance, they will give you free home insurance up to €300 (according to the radio ads).


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## F. Kruger (29 Aug 2007)

AFAIK, the premium income is specific to the year in question and would not include new business from previous years. It would include increases on existing policies.

The length of time in the market would have a bearing on the figures. If we had the figures from the first two or three years of trading I would say that the wisdom of this type of business model would have to be questioned. 

Quinn do distribute their products through Brokers.


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## robd (29 Aug 2007)

Would the fact the Quinn Life only deal with individuals have anything to do with the low figure?  A huge proportion of people in the country are PAYE so their employer dictates what pension the company will contribute to.  You could of course set up a Quinn Life for AVCs (as I have but's thats more because I used to be Self Employed) but most would not do this and put their AVCs into company scheme.


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## CCOVICH (29 Aug 2007)

F. Kruger said:


> Quinn do distribute their products through Brokers.


 
Really?  Which products and is it only through certain brokers?


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## ClubMan (29 Aug 2007)

yoganmahew said:


> They seem to be doing a three for two: if you have life and car insurance, they will give you free home insurance up to €300 (according to the radio ads).


Isn't financial product bundling illegal in some contexts? Is this only where they say "if you take product A then you *must *also take poduct B" as opposed to saying "if you take product A then we'll discount product B"?


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## F. Kruger (29 Aug 2007)

CCOVICH said:


> Really? Which products and is it only through certain brokers?


 
I am not sure if they pick and choose who they deal with. They are the only ones that can tell you that.

If a Broker wants to place business with Quinn Life they need a written appointment (agency) from them to do so. They can then place whatever business they want with them on their full product range.


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## ClubMan (29 Aug 2007)

F. Kruger said:


> I am not sure if they pick and choose who they deal with. They are the only ones that can tell you that.
> 
> If a Broker wants to place business with Quinn Life they need a written appointment (agency) from them to do so. They can then place whatever business they want with them on their full product range.


Does this mean that their claims not to deal with brokers (e.g. in their marketing brochures such as ) are false?


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## F. Kruger (29 Aug 2007)

If you mean this :​ 
'Freeway has no Brokers and no commissions'​ 
..then I would say that you would really want to have it in for them to go complaining about that. I would say that the initial business model has changed slightly over the years but the brochure may not have kept pace. ​ 
or ​ 
'Freeway doesn’t pay brokers or middlemen which means more of
your money goes into your fund for your benefit.'​ 
This is fine. The Broker would probably charge a fee for transacting the business or the Quinn product may be part of some other advice that the broker may have been paid commission on.​


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## ClubMan (29 Aug 2007)

I see - thanks. I thought that "no brokers" meant simply that. Obviously not.


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## F. Kruger (29 Aug 2007)

'No Brokers' - It does sound good to some people though


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## MOB (29 Aug 2007)

From looking at the Quinn direct website, it appears that they actively encourage brokers to partner with them in selling commercial insurance.  For the more commoditised retail type products, my understanding is that they do not sell through brokers or at least that they do not pay a broker commission on such products, though I am open to correction.


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## F. Kruger (29 Aug 2007)

They don't pay commission to brokers but there is no reason why a broker who holds an appointment in writing from them can't place business with them. Those that do will probably charge a fee for carrying out the transaction.

If they don't hold the appointment in writing they can still advise the client to contact them directly.


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## F. Kruger (29 Aug 2007)

Brendan said:


> I posted it because it shows that Irish people are not shopping around. It also shows that brokers are a huge source of business. Brendan


 
What it really highlights is the connection between the Banks and their ability to cross-sell to their customer base.

Take Anglo, ARK/AIB(now in bed with Hibernian), BOI, First Active (tied to Friends First), PTSB(tied to Irish Life). NIB and Ulster are probably placing a very large trache of business with the other major players.

Yes, people are not shopping around and I can only guess that this is because they cannot take the time to educate themselves(present company excluded) or they get some sort of _fuzzy wuzzy_ feeling from dealing with a Bank.

Until such time as something is done about the education or the Bank myth is disproved, then it will continue to run as is. 

I presume that the pressure on Banks to satisfy shareholders will continue, but it may force further consolidation in the sector to form economies of scale. The easiest way for them to add to the bottom line is to cannibalise their existing business and generate additional revenue every time they turn a product over.

IMHO it has to meet a finite end somewhere down the track as (to paraphrase) Ireland is tiny....


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## triplex (30 Aug 2007)

The Quinn group are not particularly focused on the life assurance co - the life company mainly gets business as an offshoot from it's motor/health companies. When it was initially set up, there was no advertising or growth strategy, it was basically a white elephant within the group.  This can be borne out by looking at the Insurance Annual Report from 2000 - available from the Insurance regulator in IFSRA (these reports should be on their website). these reports should give more clear picture than the Insurance Institute reports. 

Quinn life has been in operation now for well over 5 years and should be aiming at the ordinary 'joe soaps' as its products are not expensive...don't expect it to grow very much in the near future tho..


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## Sherpa (5 Sep 2007)

It all comes down to distribution.  Quinn Life doesn't have anyone being paid to push its products (or being paid commission to sell them).  Simple as that really.

I guess Sean Quinn thought he could replicate the non-life success with the life company.  The big difference though is that motor insurance is (a) a compulsory product and (b) a largely price-driven commodity product.  Neither of these applies with savings/investment products no matter how much some people would like it to be so.


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