# Did someone say "The Peace Process is almost complete&q



## Albert Rosenfield (10 Dec 2004)

*Did someone say "The Peace Process is almost complete&q*

Deja-vu feeling all over again.

About 1 week ago they report that the IRA or some part of it is all set to destroy all their weapons and have it witnessed by someone from the loyalists or at least provide photos of it. All their weapons. Forever. End of story.

Then as the days progress it seems that that wasn't quite what they said.  Then it looks like there is no way they will provide a photo. Then it looks like they won't do any of it. At all.

A year or so ago, it was Gerry Adams saying something extremely clearly, then saying he was misunderstood, then saying it was never the case at all.

Each time it looks like the 'politicians' are all set to do the right thing, clear the boards and bring the whole ugly mess too an end, and then a few days later apparently there is no way they would do such a thing as long as those other guys are on the other side.

South Africa got over the instutionalised apartheid thing reasonably quickly.  I remember thinking in the '80s that this was never going to go away, but it did. Why can't the 'politicians' get their act together, say the words, shake hands, do the deal and let the police get on with their job of going after the gougers and gangsters cowering under the cover of the paramilitary title ?


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## Marie (11 Dec 2004)

*Did someone say "The Peace Process is almost complete&q*

It was complete to all intents and purposes until a certain Reverend went public with foaming-at-the-mouth tribism, sectarianism and ad hominem provocations and insults.

Newspapers in the UK - weary of trying to report on Iraq against  censorhip of their reportage - have lighted, not on Paisley's rabid attacks, but on Gerry Adam's statement that the deal was to decomission, not to be humiliated.

There is a monograph written in the 1930's by the anthropologist Walter Cannon who found that ostracisation and scapegoating by the tribe lead to illness and frequently, the death, of the individual.  These findings - about the destructivity of shaming attacks and humiliation - are supported by a number of more recent studies.


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## Rabbit (11 Dec 2004)

*Re: Did someone say "The Peace Process is almost comple*

_*It was complete to all intents and purposes until a certain Reverend went public with foaming-at-the-mouth tribism, sectarianism and ad hominem provocations and insults.

Oh blame one person with swiping over the top statements.   Despite all the bad press and propoganda against him, most people see the IRA's refusal to decommission as the obstacle to peace, not Paisley.

Newspapers in the UK - weary of trying to report on Iraq against censorhip of their reportage - have lighted, not on Paisley's rabid attacks, but on Gerry Adam's statement that the deal was to decomission, not to be humiliated.

First of all, Newspapers in the UK are not censored, Marie.  If you want to see what censorship is, go to any of the Arab countries where there is no opposition political party, or look at Saddams history in Iraq.    If Sinn Fein/ IRA really want to decommission, why do they not do this ?  Are they really that worried about their humiliation - look at the humiliation they caused by their decades of bombing and shooting.   Which would you prefer be - an anonymous IRA person or someone walking around with one leg,  severe burns , and/ or having lost loved ones etc.


There is a monograph written in the 1930's by the anthropologist Walter Cannon who found that ostracisation and scapegoating by the tribe lead to illness and frequently, the death, of the individual. These findings - about the destructivity of shaming attacks and humiliation - are supported by a number of more recent studies.*_ 


Marie, what are you on?  If "shaming attacks and humiliation" are so destructive, is this what the provos are going to use now instead of semtex and the armalite?  I think you are claiming they are afraid of shaming attacks and retaliation !  This is a bit rich after your attack on Paisley, which in itself is not really that surprising after Pat "the provo" Kennys ultra soft and one sided interview with Gerry Adams on the Late Late last night.


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## Rabbit (11 Dec 2004)

*Re: Did someone say "The Peace Process is almost comple*

Sorry correct bold print quotation below:

_*It was complete to all intents and purposes until a certain Reverend went public with foaming-at-the-mouth tribism, sectarianism and ad hominem provocations and insults.*_

Oh blame one person with swiping over the top statements. Despite all the bad press and propoganda against him, most people see the IRA's refusal to decommission as the obstacle to peace, not Paisley.


_*Newspapers in the UK - weary of trying to report on Iraq against censorhip of their reportage - have lighted, not on Paisley's rabid attacks, but on Gerry Adam's statement that the deal was to decomission, not to be humiliated.*_

First of all, Newspapers in the UK are not censored, Marie. If you want to see what censorship is, go to any of the Arab countries where there is no opposition political party, or look at Saddams history in Iraq. If Sinn Fein/ IRA really want to decommission, why do they not do this ? Are they really that worried about their humiliation - look at the humiliation they caused by their decades of bombing and shooting. Which would you prefer be - an anonymous IRA person or someone walking around with one leg, severe burns , and/ or having lost loved ones etc.


_*There is a monograph written in the 1930's by the anthropologist Walter Cannon who found that ostracisation and scapegoating by the tribe lead to illness and frequently, the death, of the individual. These findings - about the destructivity of shaming attacks and humiliation - are supported by a number of more recent studies.*_ 

Marie, what are you on? If "shaming attacks and humiliation" are so destructive, is this what the provos are going to use now instead of semtex and the armalite? I think you are claiming they are afraid of shaming attacks and retaliation ! This is a bit rich after your attack on Paisley, which in itself is not really that surprising after Pat "the provo" Kennys ultra soft and one sided interview with Gerry Adams on the Late Late last night.


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## Marie (13 Dec 2004)

*Did someone say "The Peace Process is almost comple*

_*Then as the days progress it seems that that wasn't quite what they said. Then it looks like there is no way they will provide a photo. Then it looks like they won't do any of it. At all.*_

Rabbit - the above excerpt from the original post is the point to which I responded, and which I was interested to debate.

I am not sure you wish to debate as you immediately attribute my point of view to either being "on" something, or "like" Pat Kenny and then declare the culpability of "the IRA".

To your remark contradicting that there is censorship, *all* journalists were "embedded" in army base camps from the beginning of the "war" in Iraq.  *All* communications and reports were examined before transmission.  This situation continues now and on BBC, ITV and Channel 4 coverage of Iraq reports from foreign correspondents are prefaced with "The following report may have been censored".

I left Ireland in 1971 and have lived in the UK since.  I am not pro-IRA and/or anti-British.

It is remarkable - given the current focus on, and new laws pertaining to, incitement - that Reverend Paisley has been so widely and so receptively reported.

Sinn Fein had agreed to presence of international weapons inspectors.  That was all agreed with General De Chastelain (? I may have spelled his name incorrectly) and the Unionist side.  As far as I know the making of photographic evidence for presentation to the governments of the Republic and UK would have been an integral part of this.

My understanding of Reverend Paisley's incitement to hatred and his attack on this progress was that Paisley wished to be present at the actual event......not he alone but a number of people from his contingent.......to humiliate (his words) the murdering scum (his words).

If you can present anything constructive about Reverend Paisley's position I look forward to hearing it.  However the point is not answered by indicating past horrors and violence.

It is that very past which this entire peace process is designed to heal.  My view is that that healing is not facilitated by inflamatory language and unreasonable demands.


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## Asimov (13 Dec 2004)

*Paisley*

Hi Rabbit.
You may look on Paisley as just another democrat, frustrated by IRA intransigence, but I think your view is blinkered, unfortunately.

I grew up as a Catholic in Belfast, a child of The Troubles. 
As a ten year old, I watched Paisley on TV almost every night - browbeating Gerry Fitt or some other moderate nationalist representative into submission, roaring and ranting, spewing anti catholic rhetoric - I was afraid of him! He looked, and sounded scary to me.
I remember wondering why he hated us so much, and why he used words like 'Papists' and 'Popery' when he referred to catholics. This was 1969, the IRA was a defunct organisation at the time in NI. The issues of the day were Civil Rights ones. Catholics were marching for basic freedoms - such as a vote.

I didn't understand any of that...all I knew was there was a bad man on TV who called me and my family bad names.

Little did I know what the future held in store.

All through the conflict that man has been there, sometimes in the vanguard of hate, but always in the background amid the static. As a teenager I no longer feared him as I had when I was a child, instead I despised him and all he stood for.

Nowadays I look at that dried up old fool, and all I see is a pathetic throwback to a bygone era. A political and cultural dinosaur who drags everything around him down into the dirt. But occasionally you still see a flash of the old bigot unleashed - as we did when he savaged some journalist on TV last week.

Sure, the IRA were wromg in much of what they've done...but not all. Unfortunately they came to exist because of men like Paisley, and Paisley was no prude when it came to flashing a gun barrel, or consorting with a terrorist if he felt the occasion called for it.

You think of him as a Democrat, and the IRA as muderers.
I saw him - still see him - as prepared to use democracy only as long as he calls on a guarenteed majority. If the majority wavers he pulls out the gun...just as quick as Gerry Adams ever might have. His is not democracy with concensus...it is the *tyranny* of a deeply bigotted majority.

So before you sing the praises of Ian Paisley, spare a thought for the damage he has done in splitting apart a divided community.

Paisley as bigot: www.ianpaisley.org/antichrist.asp

On the subject of photographs and IRA decommissioning...Paisley has never seen a photo of God, yet he believes in Him. 
Same principle.


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## Madonna (14 Dec 2004)

*Re: Paisley*

That was good stuff Asimov.

It still sticks in the craw though that a Government Minister could be  in bed with the IRA.  As an absolute minimum the IRA must make that clear statement to its volunteers to back off the old kneecapping.

We would still be left with a very unsatisfactory situation.  The IRA are illegal on both sides of the border.  Ask any constitutional party what they think of the IRA and I hope it would be that they are an illegal paramilitary force which has no place in a democracy.

We seem at best to be heading to a position in NI where the Deputy First Minister's view would be _"The IRA are wonderful folk who have achieved so much by their heroic deeds.  They should not be illegal, we find that law unacceptable  They are currently on gardening leave as we try and get this show on the road but they haven't gone away you know."_  That to me is wholy unacceptable.  The IRA should be disbanded, humiliated and disowned by anyone who wishes to hold executive office in a democracy.


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## Rabbit (14 Dec 2004)

*Re: Paisley*

Well said Madonna.  What has the IRA got to hide?  Why will they not allow a few photo or other proof of decommissioning?   That is all Paisley and all right thinking democrats want. When some loyalists decomissioned a number of years ago, I remember seeing the guns being sawn up and destroyed on the television, in front of my eyes.  There is no real proof the provos have destroyed a single gun or a single ounce of semtex yet , have they?  That Canadian gereral may just have seen a single bullet being destroyed.  A democracy cannot deal with a private army, which does not even recognize the Irish army / state. Look what they done to Jerry McCabe : he was not the first member of the Irish security forces killed by the provos.  

As regards the previous posters (Asimov) rantings against Paisley and even his community..I believe this is real incitement to hatred.
Much of what Asimov said was patently untrue.   I know some catholics in the north who vote for Dr. Paisley.  It is a pity there is so much propaganda against him in the south.   Look at the election results from Rathlin island, a community mixed 50 / 50 , and yet where Paisley got most of the votes.   I , for one, would rather trust Paisleys 2004 style of democracy than the provos / Sinn Fein. I am not saying Paisley or the Nothern system was correct or perfect in the 50's/60's- far from it.    Do not forget however, the IRA was not completely inactive in the decades preceding the troubles/1969.


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## Asimov (14 Dec 2004)

*Re: Paisley*



> When some loyalists decomissioned a number of years ago, I remember seeing the guns being sawn up and destroyed on the television, in front of my eyes.



Ahh yes...that was the LVF. 
They declared a ceasefire and handed over a few rusty small arms to be chopped up. 
Unfortunately that wasn't the end of their story.



> "Despite its "ceasefire" the LVF continued its sectarian murder campaign under the guise of the Red Hand Defenders, a badge of convenience used also by the UDA.
> 
> When the LVF was linked to the murder of journalist Martin O' Hagan at the end of September 2001, *the Secretary of State was moved to declare on 12th October that the government no longer recognised their ceasefire.*"[broken link removed]





> There is no real proof the provos have destroyed a single gun or a single ounce of semtex yet , have they? That Canadian gereral may just have seen a single bullet being destroyed.





> "Of the IRA’s latest weapons act last week, General John de Chastelain said that the organisation had disposed of more than it ever had before. He did not give the quantity, *but said that it included light, medium and heavy ordnance, and associated munitions.*
> Security sources suggest that the weapons decommissioned *would have included significant amounts, if not all of the remaining Semtex, heavy assault rifles and missiles."*
> Times Online.


Where are the calls for UDA/UVF/LVF etc etc to hand in *their* weapons? This is all a bit one sided as far as I see.



> Look what they done to Jerry McCabe : he was not the first member of the Irish security forces killed by the provos.


I believe those four should remain in prison. Thats my own view on it.



> As regards the previous posters (Asimov) rantings against Paisley and even his community..I believe this is real incitement to hatred.


Rubbish.



> I , for one, would rather trust Paisleys 2004 style of democracy than the provos / Sinn Fein.


Thats your opinion and you are entitled to it. Paisley has plenty of support, as can be seen from his election results.
But so has Sinn Fein. Thats the reality...deal with it.

Paisley has a responsibity to everyone on this island to work to sort out this situation. But given his past performance I doubt he is motivated to do much to progress things. Progress toward power sharing with catholics/republicans is not on his agenda.


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## Marie (15 Dec 2004)

*Paisley*

If that progress had been maintained, if that deal had gone through a few days ago, who would Paisley be?  What would he do?  What - apart from this single issue for which he is internationally known - has Paisley to offer in terms of _development_ as opposed to _bigotry_?

Look forward to the responses of those who feel Northern Ireland "wasn't that bad" in the 1950-60's up to the Civil Rights movement and Bernadette Devlin.


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## purple (15 Dec 2004)

*Re: Did someone say "The Peace Process is almost comple*

Negotiations require good faith and the desire to find a settlement on the part of all concerned. Paisley has neither. He is not a democrat and while I'm not sure I'd agree with Asimov that the majority of his constituent is deeply bigoted, I would fully accept that paisley is and that democracy to him is a tool, not a value.
For the record, I have little more regard for Adams etc. but for fire and brimstone and good old fashioned tribal hatred you can't beat the would-be doctor.


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## Rabbit (15 Dec 2004)

*Re: Did someone say "The Peace Process is almost comple*

Paisley is willing to share power with Sinn Fein / IRA when the IRA decommissions some weapons, as verified by photos or some such means.  THe US govt, as well as all other parties, want the provos to show the photos.  Why do they not? They do not want peace, like Paisley and the rest of us do.

By the way, the LVF decommissioned more than a few rusty handguns. We have no *real* proof the IRA has even done that yet.


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## Asimov (15 Dec 2004)

*Re: Did someone say "The Peace Process is almost comple*



> Paisley is willing to share power with Sinn Fein / IRA when the IRA decommissions *some weapons,*


It is my understanding that Paisley expects the decommissioning of *ALL IRA weapons,* not just some. Are you suggesting he'd be happy with a couple of Armalites and a handful of bullets?



> verified by photos or some such means.


Verification is offerred already, through mutually appointed clerical witnesses and General De Chastelain. The photo ploy is Paisleys extra demand so that he can crow about his defeat of the IRA. 



> THe US govt, as well as all other parties, want the provos to show the photos.


No they don't! I haven't seen a single suggestion in any news report that the US government was recommending any such thing. Show us a link. 


> They do not want peace, like Paisley and the rest of us do.


Errr...there is peace. A ceasefire since 1996.

Paisley wants peace alright...just like he used to have...when the Catholic/Nationalist/Republican people of NI were subjugated and silenced. Thats his kind of peace. 


> By the way, the LVF decommissioned more than a few rusty handguns.


Sounds like you think the LVF are great lads! 
They seem to have left themselves enough guns to go out later and murder Martin O'Hagan...not to mention a few of their fellow Loyalists. 

Are you a Loyalist Paramilitary sympathiser? You certainly seem to consider their murders as being reasonable...only the IRA are holding things up. Are Loyalist murders OK by you? Do you want to see them continue? What about Loyalist weapons? Are you in favour of them being decommissioned too? When? How? Why aren't you demanding it? These people aren't even on ceasefire, never mind ready to discuss decommissioning! Why are you silent on this issue? Why harp on about the IRA? Lets hear what you'll do if your lads, the Loyalists won't hand in their guns and bombs?

Why hasn't Paisley been demanding to see the weapons of the Loyalist paramilitaries? The NI Chief Constable recently stated that something like 90% of all sectarian attacks in NI since the IRA ceasefire have been the work of Loyalists.

Personally, I'm amazed that Adams and McGuinness keep talking about IRA decommissioning while the loyalists weapons aren't even being discussed. If it was me up to me, I'd demand parrallel decomissioning from them. I don't accept the situation where Paisleys friends and brethren will be the only people in NI holding weapons and running private armies. Paisley might well decide to call on their help and support as he has done before.

I remember being brought down the Falls road in 1969 to see the aftermath of the Loyalist invasion of the lower Falls, whole streets and homes of impoverished Catholics which had been burned to the ground by protestant mobs from the Shankill. The IRA were villified afterward in their own neighbourhoods because they had done nothing to stop it. The truth was they had no weapons to use. That incident was the genesis of the modern IRA. What will stop it happening again? If loyalist paramilitaries think the people of the lower Falls are once more at their mercy...because the IRA have nothing to defend them with...but they still have THEIR guns. I want to see Loyalist Paramilitary decomissioning before this process moves one inch further.


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## Madonna (15 Dec 2004)

*Re: The reality*

Sorry, Asi,but you are missing the plot a little.  Just a little bit of history correction first.  1969 saw an uprising from the catholic population - whether that was justified or not.  By late August the situation was out of control - it had become a nightly recreation for teenage gangs from Anderstown and Ballymurphy to go down the Falls and riot and burn and loot.  And then the balloon went up on the night of August 14th - the Protestant backlash.  It wasn't all as one sided as you portray.

Roll forward - the real problem with your analogy Asi is that there isn't one single loyalist MLA and not a snowball's chance in Paisley's hellfire of a loyalist gunman or ex-gunman being in executive power, never mind Deputy First Minister.  That is the huge difference.  Even Jeffrey Donaldson has conceded that if the Provos break away and form dissident criminal groups that is a matter for the security forces.

What is crucially at issue is how can you have Government Ministers with connections to a private army which will not unambiguously disown criminality.

Paisley and the rest of us have come an awful long way when we are prepared to forget the past and let reconstructed terrorists and criminals into the seat of power.

It is up to SFIRA to convince us that this act of trust is justified.


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## Asimov (15 Dec 2004)

*Re: The reality*

Madonna, your representation of the Civil Rights movement as 'a Catholic uprising' and the burning of Bombay Street as some kind of natural backlash...are total hogwash and a stunning effort at historical revisionism.

Loyalists viewed the protests by Catholics for basic rights in NI as rebellion (just as you do) and used both their own personal private military resources and those of the State to put them down violently. 

Anyone who is interested in the actual facts should visit this LINK and read the report of the Tribunal of Inquiry by The Hon. Mr. Justice Scarman, the Governor of Northern Ireland.
Dated April, 1972  it was his report to Parliament on behalf of the Government of Northern Ireland regarding Violence and Civil Disturbances in Northern Ireland in 1969.

I offer a short quote from it:


> On the last day of March 1969 and during the month of April there occurred a number of explosions at electricity and water installations in the Province. We are satisfied that, though the perpetrators of these outrages cannot, with one exception, be identified, *they were the work of Protestant extremists who were anxious to undermine confidence in the government of Captain O'Neill. At the time it was widely thought that the explosions were the work of the IRA, though it is quite clear now that they were not.* On 28 April Captain O'Neill resigned and on 1 May was succeeded by Major Chichester Clark.


The Protestant backlash that Madonna refers to had started long before rioting broke out on the Falls road, and was part of a deliberate campaign by extreme loyalists...led by Ian Paisley...to destabilise Stormont and unseat a moderate who was prepared to accomodate reforms. Paisley later encouraged the burning out of Catholic homes in his speeches (the report contains full details).

I think it absolutely MONSTROUS that anyone portray the persecution of Catholic families in 1969 as somehow deserved.

As to the rest of your comments...no ex Loyalist gunmen as MLAs? What about David Irvine and his fellow PUP members! They've already sat in government with Paisley, with their weapons piled up behind them.
More hypocritical nonsense!!


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## Rabbit (16 Dec 2004)

*Re: The reality*

Asimov, You have been taught too much provo propoganda over the years, and worse you seem to believe it all.   You seem to have such a bigoted , false grip on the whole situation I think it is very sad.  There were many instances of nationalist terrorism in the years preceding 1969.    I am not saying the administration in the North was right pre 69, but you seem to take a very one sided view on it all. 

Paisley said he will share power with SinnFein / IRA when there is photos of arms decommissioning.  It is Sinn Fein/IRA who are saying no.

Most of what you claim Paisley said is totally untrue.
I would not agree with some of what Paisley has said, but I do know one thing - he is anti-IRA more so than anti-Catholic.
Look at his constituency - some catholics there do vote for him ( I know some ).   Look at the results for Rathlin island, which is 50/50 on religous lines.

Was it the Christian brothers that taught you all the "facts" about Paisley?  You clearly do not live with both sides of the community in N.I., or look at both sides to an argument.

More than one Irish Priest has been convicted of working for the IRA over the years.     There were dozens / hundreds of Jerry McCabes in the North...do you not think it is understandable the situation should have thrown up someone - an extremist - like Paisley.   At least he has never killed anyone or planted semtex.   Have you ?


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## Asimov (16 Dec 2004)

*Bigotry*

Rabbit, nobody had to teach me anything about Paisley or extremist Northern Protestantism...I witnessed it first hand, so did my family. I've been a victim of it, and so have my friends. My best friend in 1969, a nine year old boy, was shot dead in his bed by an RUC B-Special who was never brought to justice for the murder. Patrick Rooney...look it up.

Most of what I said about Paisley untrue? I'm only quoting him!...do YOU believe the Catholic Church is led by the Anti Christ? Paisley does, and has no qualms saying so...its on his own website...I provided the link. 
You obviously can't be arsed to read it. Too challenging for you?

You keep harping about yokels in Rathlin voting for him. Give us the election results which back up your claim. You've already made one nonsense claim which you can't substantiate and you seem to have backed down when challenged to prove it.



> Was it the Christian brothers that taught you all the "facts" about Paisley?


Something wrong with the Christian Brothers? I suppose Paisley has warned you they are dangerous 'papist plotters' who would rob NI from the pure protestant people? 





> More than one Irish Priest has been convicted of working for the IRA over the years.


If thats not bigotry I'd like to know what is. 
You old BIGOT.


> At least he has never killed anyone or planted semtex. Have you ?


Pathetic. 
People like you and Paisley gave the IRA a reason to exist.

Tell your murdering friends and brethren in the UVF/UDA/UFF/LVF/Red Hand Commando's and all the rest- to hand in their guns and show us the photos. We're waiting.


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## Madonna (16 Dec 2004)

*Re: Bigotry*

Asimov, I used to believe all that crap.

And I still do!!

But I now realise that this is only one side of the story.  

For example, is Paisley a bigot? you're darned right he is. But it was the RC church which insisted on keeping 40% of the NI population in segregated schools, it was the RC church which did its damnest to prevent intermarrying, it was the RC church which banned the playing of Protestant sports (such as soccer and rugby) in its schols.  In fact the RC church has done and is continuing to do far, far more to divide the NI population than Paisley could ever do.

Citing from personal experience is a typical ruse by us Northerners to put Southern critics in their box.  I mentioned before the hooligan gangs from A'town.  I was that soldier!! Though I hasten to add I was always too timid to throw a petrol bomb!! As a QUB undergraduate I had seen the well meaning CR movement degenerate into a hooligan orgy of violence and destruction.  Make no mistake if the underclasses of the Dublin surburbs (and they are far worse off than their RC counterparts in NI) were ever to nightly riot and pillage O'Connell Street the Southern security forces would righlty be ordered to ruthlessly suppress the disorder.


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## Rabbit (16 Dec 2004)

*Re: Bigotry*

_*Most of what I said about Paisley untrue? I'm only quoting him!..*_.
Half of what you have "quoted" is untrue, and some of the rest is taken out of context.   Do'nt get me wrong : I never voted for him or his party.  However, I do not think he ever literally had blood on his hands like many members of Sinn Fein/ IRA. 


_*You keep harping about yokels in Rathlin voting for him. Give us the election results which back up your claim.*_ 
Are you calling the catholics on Rathlin island "yokels" because they vote for Paisley?   He has done more for them than Sinn Fein / IRA ever did.  Look up the election results yourself.  It is a well known fact, but I know you do not like to accept some facts that are not to your liking.


_*Something wrong with the Christian Brothers? I suppose Paisley has warned you they are dangerous 'papist plotters' who would rob NI from the pure protestant people?*_ 

No, Paisley never warned me about anything, let alone "papist plotters". As regards robbing NI from the pure protestant people, I know catholics who have met Paisley and who found him to be a pure gentleman.  As regards the pure protestant people, he knows , and I know, that there are good and bad on both sides.   Do you ? It does not seem so. 


_*More than one Irish Priest has been convicted of working for the IRA over the years.*_
*If thats not bigotry I'd like to know what is.* 

That is a fact.  However most priests are perfectly good people, but there have been a few bad apples over the years.


*You old BIGOT.*  I am not actually. I am quite neutral and fair minded.  I have always voted for mainstream parties which are NOT loyalist / unionist.   If I am a bigot, I can see how the like of Gerry McCabe gets shot by your heros, and I can see how people like me and the vast majority of Irish people will be treated if Sinn Fein/ IRA ever gets real total power in Ireland. 

*People like you and Paisley gave the IRA a reason to exist.
Tell your murdering friends and brethren in the UVF/UDA/UFF/LVF/Red Hand Commando's and all the rest- to hand in their guns and show us the photos. We're waiting.* 

I do not have any friends in UVF/UDA/UFF/LVF or Red hand commandos.   I have never even met anyone, to the best of my knowledge, from any of these organisations.  Some loyalists did hand in guns, which we all saw on television being cut up etc.  I am in favour of ALL illegal guns being handed in.   However, the provos have by far the biggest arsenal of weapons, especially non defensive weapons like heavy machine guns , semtex etc.    Everyone expected them to hand in weapons long before now.


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## Marie (17 Dec 2004)

*Bigotry*

Is it possible to rescue yet another (sigh!) thread which is descending into stupidity, repitition and _"ad hominem"_ comments and get back to a useful debate about the current state of the Northern Ireland peace process?

_In general_ would we not expect that a cessation of hostilities ( _wherever_ on this poor suffering planet it occurs, _whenever_ historically it occurs.....that a "cessation of hostilities" would by definition involve _both_ protagonists (publicly or privately, with or without the Kodak moment) and would be recognisable by the fact that _both_ sides restrained from use of taunting, provocative and abusive name-calling?

Or perhaps some posters here (you know who you are there at the back......!) have a different definition of "peace process"?  Do share!


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## Rabbit (17 Dec 2004)

*Re: Bigotry*

I agree entirely Marie.  Furthermore, it was envisaged in the Good Friday agreement that arms from terrorist organizations would not only be decommissioned, but be seen to be decommissioned.   One terrorist organization imported much more arms and explosives than the others.  Over to you, Asimov.


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## Madonna (17 Dec 2004)

*Re: Bigotry*

Look here, everything Asimov says is more or less true.  My issue with Asi is that he is so terribly one sided.

But I really must scotch this preposterous "Paisley is a nice man" theme.  Paisley is pure evil.  His darkest moment was in orchestrating and dominating the Loyalist strike of 1974.  Totally illegal, pure blackmail and implemented by bullyboy tactics ,it forced the British Government to postpone power sharing for at least 30 years and maybe for ever.

Make no mistake Paisley will NEVER EVER be First Minister of NI.

Do southerners feel they are being sort of broad minded in saying nice things about this demagogue.  He is recognised the world over as the caricature of sectarian biggoted hatred and has been largely instrumental in giving the international community the broad impression that it is the Catholics who are the most injured party.  This is a huge disservice to the bulk of the Protectant people in NI.


----------



## Asimov (19 Dec 2004)

*1969, hooliganism or people power?*



> As a QUB undergraduate I had seen the well meaning CR movement degenerate into a hooligan orgy of violence and destruction.


Madonna, it has historically been the pattern in any deeply motivated mass public protest that if a cry for justice is ignored - or put down by violence - then violence may well be the response. 

It has been so all round the world...from the French Revolution, to The Russian Revolution, to demonstrations of People Power in The Phillipines and Eastern Europe, and most recently in Ukraine (where violence has - so far - been narrowly been avoided because the State has had to give in to the people).

People march occasionally in the Republic of Ireland too...about issues like the Iraq war for instance...and even if it gets them nowhere they may feel better about themselves for having 'done something'. They can then return to their comfortable homes and everyday lives and move on.

As you well know, the minority population of NI had a legitimate and just cause to march...and their marches were peaceful. Those marches were put down by violence. We've all seen the old black and white TV images of Civil Rights marchers being batoned by B Specials.

The problem was though, unlike the marching middle classes of Dublin, the people of west Belfast couldn't just go home, stick a band-aid on their sore heads and just forget all about it. They were living with blatant State backed sectarian discrimination every day, in housing, jobs, schooling, voting....the lot.

If Terence O'Neill had been allowed to make a few cursory concessions to the Civil Rights leaders as he seemed about to, maybe the whole of what happened could have been avoided. But Paisley wouldn't allow the reformers a chance to show some generosity...his motto was 'Not an Inch' and he led the revolt that threw the liberal O'Neill out of power. 
The result was the massive polarisation of the society. 
The formation of the Provos and renewed demands for a United Ireland followed. 


The rioting that happened in Belfast in 1969 may well be classed as hooliganism by you. 
There is no such thing as peaceful, well behaved rioting. Thats the nature of the beast.
None of it should ever have happened, or would have happened...if there was justice in the society.



> Make no mistake if the underclasses of the Dublin surburbs were ever to nightly riot and pillage O'Connell Street the Southern security forces would righlty be ordered to ruthlessly suppress the disorder.


Quite.
Would that include shooting innocent children in their beds? Would that be a justifiable, even handed or measured response to civil disorder?


----------



## Rabbit (20 Dec 2004)

*Re: 1969, hooliganism or people power?*

QUOTE :
*Would that include shooting innocent children in their beds? Would that be a justifiable, even handed or measured response to civil disorder?*

No, killing civilians is never justifiable.    By far, far the greatest number of civilians killed in Northern Ireland during the "troubles"  was by republican terrorists ie the Provisional IRA and INLA.

There were some policemen killed by republicans in N.Ireland in the years prior to 1969, do not forget that.   If there were widespread riots in O'Connell St., Dublin, as someone said, what would the Irish govt. have done?    Do not forget that DeValera hung some IRA volunteer in the early forties.  

We would ALL have been far better off without the IRA.


----------



## Asimov (20 Dec 2004)

*Re: 1969, hooliganism or people power?*



> By far, far the greatest number of *civilians* killed in Northern Ireland during the "troubles" was by republican terrorists ie the Provisional IRA and INLA.


If you insist on counting corpses then have a look at this site. 

The thing that leaps out at me from the bar graph is that Loyalist paramilitaries and British Forces killed *more civilians* than the IRA. You said "civilians" in your quote...and on that count you were wrong.

You'll also notice that way more Catholics died in the troubles than Protestants.

And incidentally...the biggest number of civilian deaths in the troubles in a single incident (before Omagh) was when 26 civilians were killed by the UVF when they planted 3 simultaneous car bombs in Parnell Square, Talbot Street and South Leinster Street, Dublin on 17 May 1974.

Where does that get us? Statistics can be used to show anything. 
The IRA are willing to take their weapons out of circulation permaneantly, and the only real obstacle in the way now is Ian Paisley. 



> There were some policemen killed by republicans in N.Ireland in the years prior to 1969, do not forget that.


The IRA were nothing pre 1969 because they didn't have the widespread support of the people before 1969. They later gained that support thanks to state oppression of the people.



> We would ALL have been far better off without the IRA.


I think we can agree on that...probably even Gerry Adams and many members of the IRA would agree too.
Lets do away with it...they are ready to go.


----------



## Rabbit (22 Dec 2004)

*Re: 1969, hooliganism or people power?*

You will notice from even your own web site that Republicans killed far more people than everyone else put together.
But as you say, where does that get us? Statistics can be used to show anything. 

Quote *The IRA are willing to take their weapons out of circulation permanently, and the only real obstacle in the way now is Ian Paisley*. 

No, the only real obstacle to peace is the IRA.  If they wanted to decommission, they would.     Even if they were to be seen to do a small amount of decommissioning, it would be a great help.    Paisley is speaking for the man in the street : most people in N. Ireland, Rep of Ireland, UK and US    as revealed in polls and declared by their elected politicians ) want the IRA to be seen to decommission.  It is not necessary even to have public decommissioning, or even video decommissioning : just photos will do.   But will the IRA oblige ?





*The IRA were nothing pre 1969 because they didn't have the widespread support of the people before 1969.* 
There were policemen killed pre 1969.    The IRA were more than nothing pre 1969, otherwise DeValera would not have hanged one of them in the forties.  As regards "*widespread* support of the people", the IRA never had that, and (hopefully) never will.   The Irish people are not that stupid.
You cannot fool all of the people all of the time.


----------



## Asimov (22 Dec 2004)

*Re: 1969, hooliganism or people power?*



> If they wanted to decommission, they would. Even if they were to be seen to do a small amount of decommissioning, it would be a great help.


I don't think Dr.Paisley agrees with you Rabbit. When the recent talks broke down there was a hint from the media that the IRA were going to go ahead anyhow with their decommissioning. Paisley immediately put out a statement warning the IRA not to do so. READ>> 
So we now have the bizarre situation where the IRA are ready and willing to do more decommissioning than even you ask, but the Reverend Ian has said NO!! NEVER!!


> As regards "widespread support of the people",the IRA never had that, and (hopefully) never will.


They certainly had it in West Belfast in the early seventies...when they were growing. People there saw the IRA as the only thing standing between them and total extermination.

Any guerilla force needs the aid and assistance of the people just to exist. Without them it is useless. The Brits know that very well, it was how they stamped on the Malay Crisis in the 50's. 
You ought to read some Che Guevarra.


----------



## Madonna (22 Dec 2004)

*Re: Extermination threat*



> They certainly had it in West Belfast in the early seventies...when they were growing. People there saw the IRA as the only thing standing between them and *total extermination*.


Steady on, Asimov.  As I stated before I was a QUB undergrad in 1969-72.  It might be hard for southerners to believe but I can recall that the signs in the students' union were only in English.  These days QUB is a majority Catholic uni and the signs are now wholly as gaelige. Proper order, mind you I haven't a clue how to get around the place.   My point is that this is far from extermination, but perhaps Asi is right, it is the IRA we have to thank for that.


----------



## Asimov (22 Dec 2004)

*Re: Extermination threat*

Yes, I believe the IRA served a purpose. If they hadn't reformed by 1970 - the process of ethnic cleansing was already well under way. They put a halt to it.

I still remember the mass exodus of Catholic refugees from West Belfast by late summer of 1969. 

Catholics had to get off their knees and fight for survival.
Radicalisation into a Nationalist/Republican movement followed later.

Rather like whats happening in Darfur at the moment.


----------



## Madonna (22 Dec 2004)

*Re: Extermination threat*

Asi, the French Revolution, the Russian Revolution, Darfur, total extermination, ethnic cleansing...get a grip!  The capacity of the Northern RC to identify their plight with infinitely worse scenarios never ceases to amaze.  In 1969, unemployment in RC working class Belfast was higher than in Protestant areas but considerably lower than in the South.  Local authority voting was restricted to property owners which tended to favour Protestants. Other than that I am struggling to see the huge injustices/oppression - absolutely nothing to justify the way OTT 30 year terrorist onslaught.


----------



## Asimov (22 Dec 2004)

*Re: Extermination threat*

Madonna, man does not live by bread alone. Injustice and discrimination will always create conflict, wherever it occurs.

You've attempted to minimise the plight of the people in 1969 on more than one occasion now, portraying the inevitable eruption of conflict as simply malicious and unreasonable.

Patently you are ill equipped to dismiss the sufferring of the Catholic population of NI through the decades leading up to 1969. I'm damn sure you didn't live in the slum ghettoes of Unity Flats or Divis Street, or get burned out of your home in Bombay Street that August night. 
Very few kids from those neighbourhoods ever managed to get into Queens University in 1969. 

It was trendy then though, wasn't it, for a silver-spoon elitist to be seen out throwing stones - probably made you feel part of the greater student protest movement around europe at the time. 
No doubt it impressed the girlies when you regaled them about it down the Students Union Bar later.


----------



## Rabbit (22 Dec 2004)

*Re: Extermination threat*

Have to agree with you there Madonna.     Asimov reminds me of his ally "Comical Ali" in Baghdad , such is his variation of the truth.   The IRA never had widespread support in IRELAND or anywhere else.   It would not need to be a terrorist group if there was.   Do not forget many, many more Irishmen choose to fight in British uniforms than in the IRA.     When the 1916 "heros" came out of the GPO in Dublin, they were boood and insulted by the locals.    DeValera executed  an IRA man in prison in the 40's.      Most people still do not support the IRA, despite the nationalist revisionist history being taught by the christian brothers, despite the the Sinn Fein propoganda machine and RTE. 


Asimov says Paisley does not want decommissioning.   What rubbish.    Of course he wants decommissioning, like everyone else except Sinn Fein / IRA.   The IRA has used its semtex and guns to kill his friends, parishoners and constituents. What an insult to say he does not want decommissioning.  We all want it, and we all want PROOF of it...just photos will do. 

The protestants are now the disadvantaged class in N. Ireland.   There is reverse job discrimination, and you only have to look at the situation in Queens ( where all the signs are in Irish only etc etc ) to realise the North is becomming an increasingly cold house for protestants.   This is what Sinn Fein wants, and no wonder most young prods go to uni. in Britain.  Something to do with parity of esteem?  

Asimov, given your support for the bank robbers in Adare,  do you condemn the robbers in Belfast last Monday night? Or does it depend on their political / party allegiance ?


----------



## Madonna (22 Dec 2004)

*Re: How wrong can you be*



> Very few kids from those neighbourhoods ever managed to get into Queens University in 1969.


 I was from one of those neighbourhoods - and this is the point, by 1969 the 1949 UK Education Act, which greatly increased access to Grammar Schools for working class people, applied equally to Catholics.  The Welfare State greatly favoured the large families of the Catholic working class.  This is the great travesty, the Labour revolution in the UK vastly enhanced the prospects and conditions of working class Catholics, way way beyond what pertained in the South.  

But as you say Asi, man does not live by bread alone.  The great bulk of Catholics in the mid sixties recognised how much improvd their conditions were.  But they still resented the perceived but greatly exaggerated sense of second class citizenship and for some mad reason they hankered after the poverty of a United Ireland - I remember being taught rebel songs in primary school.  

Nonetheless the greatly improved material conditions had relegated the IRA to a seeming irrelevance.  That was unitil their opportunity arrived - within several short months of a naive student protest, in keeping with the times, the IRA had transformed an otherwise peaceful society into a cauldron of terrorist violence and civil disorder.


----------



## Asimov (22 Dec 2004)

*Re: Extermination threat*



> When the 1916 "heros" came out of the GPO in Dublin, they were boood and insulted by the locals.


Yes, and then the Brits stupidly executed them and turned public opinion right around. The dignity of men like Connolly, strapped to a chair to face the firing squad, brought overwhelming public support to the IRA. 

Your use of quotation marks around the word "heros"(sic) is obviously intended as an insult to the Irish people. Those men drafted the Declaration of Independance and were among the founding fathers of this state. This country would still be under British control were it not for them.  



> and DeValera executed an IRA man in prison in the 40's.


You keep harping on at this. So bloody what? The pro and anti treatyists fought a civil war and there was no love lost on either side. What of it. If Dev had his way we'd still be fighting a guerilla war in a British occupied Ireland. He was hardly one of yours! 



> Most people still do not support the IRA, despite the nationalist revisionist history being taught by the christian brothers, despite the the Sinn Fein propoganda machine and RTE.


More Bigotry. :lol  It gets old. 



> What an insult to say he does not want decommissioning. We all want it, and we all want PROOF of it...just photos will do.


Paisley doesn't just want decommissioning, he expects humiliation and surrender. The photos thing is just his attempt to raise the bar yet again because he sees his bluff being called. Anything to avoid power sharing with Catholics or Republicans. 



> The protestants are now the disadvantaged class in N. Ireland.


Why? Can't compete on a level playing field? :lol  


> Queens ( where all the signs are in Irish only etc etc )


Tripe. But good for a laugh :lol  


> to realise the North is becomming an increasingly cold house for protestants.


Brrrr.... :lol 



> given your support for the bank robbers in Adare, do you condemn the robbers in Belfast last Monday night? Or does it depend on their political / party allegiance ?


Do you think the Prods did it?
Not smart enough!! :lol


----------



## Asimov (22 Dec 2004)

*Re: Extermination threat*



> within several short months of a naive student protest, in keeping with the times, the IRA had transformed an otherwise peaceful society into a cauldron of terrorist violence and civil disorder.


Or British mismanagement and Protestant intransigence had created another post colonial Frankensteins monster.
Its all just a matter of perspective, isn't it. 

But there is a certain inevitable pattern in all ex British territories.


----------



## Imperator (22 Dec 2004)

*Re: Extermination threat*

I tend to view threads on Letting Off Steam rather than contribute, I find miscellaneous non finance questions more interesting.  However, I would recommend that the AAM members read (if you haven't read already) the book by Professor Joe Lee "Ireland 1912-1985" which gives a measured and well thought out analysis of the events leading up to the troubles.  It is one of the few books on modern Irish history which tends to change peoples attitudes, or at least give them pause to reflect on their current position, whatever that is at the time.


----------



## Rabbit (23 Dec 2004)

*Re: Extermination threat*

*When the 1916 "hero's" came out of the GPO in Dublin, they were boood and insulted by the locals.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, and then the Brits stupidly executed them and turned public opinion right around*.  

Never mind what the Brits done after, the overwhelming sentiment of the Irish people was against the IRA at that time.  Even after the executions, overall sentiment was not as pro-IRA as your teachers would have had you believe. 

*Your use of quotation marks around the word "hero's"(sic) is obviously intended as an insult to the Irish people.* 

I put emphasized the word heroes because they are your heroes, not mine and not the heroes of most Irish people at the time.    Far, far more families had relations fighting in British uniforms in WW1 at the time than were in the IRA. 
Many people were proud to be part of the union with Britain. 


"* DeValera executed an IRA man in prison in the 40's." 
You keep harping on at this. So bloody what? The pro and anti treatyists fought a civil war and there was no love lost on either side. What of it. If Dev had his way we'd still be fighting a guerrilla war in a British occupied Ireland. He was hardly one of yours!* 

II was not the Brits or the Northern Prods executing IRA men in the 1940's.  Why did you not riot against the Dublin govt. then ?    You have rioted against the Northern authorities for less. 

*Most people still do not support the IRA, despite the nationalist revisionist history being taught by the Christian brothers, despite the the Sinn Fein propaganda machine and RTE.
More Bigotry.  It gets old.* 

The truth always hurts.



*What an insult to say he (Paisley)  does not want decommissioning. We all want it, and we all want PROOF of it...just photos will do.*

*Paisley doesn't just want decommissioning, he expects humiliation and surrender. The photos thing is just his attempt to raise the bar yet again because he sees his bluff being called. Anything to avoid power sharing with Catholics or Republicans.* 

Photos are actually lowering the bar : he and the Irish people could want video  proof instead.   He said he will share power with republicans , once they are seen to have decommissioned.   Incidentally, the political parties south of the border have said the same thing, ie they will not share power with Sinn Fein without decommissioning.  






When I asked *Given your support for the bank robbers in Adare, do you condemn the robbers in Belfast last Monday night? Or does it depend on their political / party allegiance ?*

You (Asimov) replied: *Do you think the Prods did it?
Not smart enough!!  * 

Can you answer the question Asimov ? Instead of belittling the prods as usual?  We know how they would be treated in a united Ireland if that were to happen , which it will not at least not in our lifetime.    By the way, perhaps the reason the prods did not do it has nothing to do with smartness, it has probably had more to do with integrity and honesty !


----------



## Asimov (23 Dec 2004)

*Re: Extermination threat*



> Never mind what the Brits done after


I refuse to waste my time debating an ignoramus with bad grammar.


----------



## piggy (23 Dec 2004)

*Re: Extermination threat*

That's it Asimov. If you can't agree with someone else then just call them names and refuse to debate with them. Pretty childish.


----------



## Madonna (23 Dec 2004)

*Re: Saved from Extermination*

August 15th 1969 was a day I won't forget.  At Assumption Day Mass (I went then!) the priest announced the staggering news that the RUC had killed 4 Catholics the night before and that Protestant mobs were rampaging through Catholic streets.  The day that followed saw a stream of "regugee" traffic to the relative safety of Andytown, where I lived.

It could be argued that left unchecked the Protestant backlash would have led to carnage of Bosnian proportions.  I wasn't really frightened and in the event the situation was brought very quickly under control - albeit we had 30 more years of "Troubles".

Asimov probably agrees with me so far but here is where we depart.  Asi believes that the Catholic population escaped genocide because of the newborn Provisional IRA, which somewhat contradicts his correct assertion that they were largely irrelevant at that time.

My contention, and I was there in the middle of it, is that it was the very rapid deployment of the British Army which did save the Catholic population from a much greater catastrophe.  It is interesting to speculate that if the IRA had been up to full speed the intervention of the BA would have been much more problematical and the resultant "civil" war would have wreaked havoc in cathoilc communities.

As it happened, with an emasculated IRA, the Catholic community welcomed the BA as saviours.  

But this was not in the Republican script.  In early 1970, completely out of the blue, 3 British soldiers were murdered on the outskirts of Belfast.  The Provos denied it for the whole community was shocked.  However, the Brits knew who did it.  There followed the Falls curfew and arms search. The honeymoon between the RC population and the BA was well and truly over and the rest is history.


----------



## Rabbit (24 Dec 2004)

*Re: Saved from Extermination*

Asimov, perhaps you could at least answer the question.  Here ,for the third time  : *Given your support for the bank robbers in Adare, do you condemn the robbers in Belfast last Monday night? Or does it depend on their political / party allegiance ?*


----------



## Asimov (24 Dec 2004)

*Re: Saved from Extermination*

Madonna, I don't know what fairyland you were living in during 1969, but I just don't believe your story, for a number of reasons.

Firstly, you claim you were in QUB in 1969. 
Well I have known Andytown since I was a kid, and the only residents of that ghetto that I ever heard of who went to 3rd level education were either trainee priests, or the children of the few professional classes who lived in the area pre-troubles - most of whom got out by the height of the fighting.
How did your working class parents, who lived in poverty ridden West Belfast, manage to pay your University fees?

Secondly, I've never yet met a resident of Andytown who lived through 69 and the 70's there and had such a positive opinion about the NI security forces as you seem to have.

Thirdly, you have dismissed the well documented history of persecution and state-led discrimination of Catholics in NI as simply some kind of fantasy, or churlish impatience for change. It seems you were never a victim of the oppression or deprivation that I saw every day there that was widespread throughout the society. 
How did *you* avoid it?

Fourthly, Andersonstown was still a small development in 1969. Most of the Catholic population were herded into hastly constructed slums like the Divis Flats, and Unity Flats, or lived in decrepit and run down older housing on the Falls Road or Ardoyne. There was still massive homelessness among the Catholic population, indeed anti Catholic corruption in the process of selection for housing was one of the triggers for the Civil Rights movement. Yet you seem to have been more than self-satisfied with your own housing arrangements in Andersonstown, and failed to see a problem. How convenient for you.

Fifthly, You continue to maintain that Catholics were solely responsible for the worst of the disturbances in 1969, in spite of the fact that 150 Catholics were burned out of their tiny homes on Bombay Street by rioting Protestant mobs on August 15th. Ten civilians, including my 9 year old pal, were killed by RUC action that same night, and up to 145 people were wounded by gunfire. The Irish Government set up field hospitals on the border to cater for the mass exodus of refugees they anticipated, and the British Government sent in troops the same day...but you say " I wasn't really frightened and in the event the situation was brought very quickly under control".
No This post will be deleted if not edited to remove bad language sherlock!! 
Just another ordinary day in your rose tinted world.

You just cannot be for real my friend. I don't know who you are or what your motives, but you are definitely not what you pretend to be. 
Mr.Rabbit is a rabid Paisleyite bigot, and a known quantity as such. He is simply laughable. You on the other hand are a definite fraudster, and rather more distasteful because you paint your revisionist lies as the 'confessions of a reformed taig'. 

Now Mr.Rabid Paisleyite, let me turn to you.





> Given your support for the bank robbers in Adare,


The reason I ignored your question (besides its ignorance of history and bad grammar) is that the only comment I ever made about the Adare shootings was that the perpetrators should remain in Jail. So you are either trying to put words in my mouth, or you are too stupid to read. 

Poor reading, poor writing, poor historical knowledge...did you ever go to school?
Maybe you should have tried the Christian Brothers, they'd have sorted you out you lazy ignorant wee Orange £@%&.....!!


----------



## Madonna (24 Dec 2004)

*Re: The Truth*

Asi, everything I said was truth except of course the subjective elements which by definition are a matter of judgement.

I passed my 11 plus, I went to St Malachy's, I went to QUB, so did many working class Catholic kids thanks to the UK egalitarian education system, in sharp contrast to the elitist system that prevailed in the South. Oh BTW I got grants, isn't socialism shocking?!

Andytown was built substantially in 1955, though I accept your point that we were the "elite" of working class RCs, others had considerably worse conditions but scarcely homeless.

As to the Troubles of 1969, ignoring all history, the Catholics certainly started it but boy did the Prods finish it.

As I have said before Mr Asi you speak largely the truth, but it is such a one sided and distorted truth.  Catholics never faced any really serious threat of "extermination" as you have claimed and that is not thanks to the Provos or Jack Lynch's forays to the border or Charlie Haughey's arming of the same Provos but thanks to the Brits.

But you are dead right on one thing, Catholics today are considerably politically better off than in 1969, they have parity of esteem and more.  That is in part due to the IRA but was there not a better way to right the fairly modest grievances than the deaths of 3,000 people.


----------



## Asimov (24 Dec 2004)

*Re: The Truth*



> As I have said before Mr Asi you speak largely the truth, but it is such a one sided and distorted truth.


Who are you to lecture on what is truth or distortion? What is the truth? Your version? 

In 1969 75% of the students in QUB were protestants...but at least you were alright jack, eh? One of the lucky few.

I had you figured out as a champagne rioter two pages ago, now you've confirmed it. QED. You really are a lackey. An Uncle Tom. You must be one of Paisleys pet Taigs that Rabid likes to boast about. Obviously the system has done alright by you, and you're grateful, really grateful. As you should be.

St.Malachys? 
You say YOU were the one educated by the Christian Brothers!? :lol         
Jeez, Rabid will be dissapointed!
Why aren't you a SF/IRA suicide bomber, like the good Brothers taught you? :lol           



> As to 1969, the Catholics certainly started it but boy did the Prods finish it.


Thats quite a provocative statement from such a 'reasonable' man as yourself, eh? Flash of the ould claws there. 
But tell me, 'started' what exactly? Catholic emancipation? 
And is 'it' finished? 
I don't think so baby. Not yet. 
But we'll get there...don't you worry.

The prehistoric fascist mentality of northern loyalists is still there, deeply ingrained in the likes of Paisley the DUP (and our own Rabid), and was seen in its naked form just recently on the streets outside the Holy Cross School where loyalist mobs were allowed (under the noses of the police) to terrorise small children on their way to school. 
These are the same people Rabid praises for their 'honesty and integrity'.>:    They are no better than the murdering b*****ds of Beslan.      

Nothing has changed under the skin of the unreconstructed Orangemen since the days when NI was a 'protestant land for a protestant people'. 

Incidentally, I know several guys in the Irish Army and Air Corps who served around 1969. You just wouldn't believe how close the ROI came to an invasion of NI. Thats the real reason the British sent their troops in so quickly, Westminster got wind of it. So forget about the Brits saving catholic asses...they went in to protect their strategic interest and the protestant establishment. 

Now - I'm taking Christmas off, play amongst yourselves there, maybe I'll see you if I have time next week.

Tiocfaid Ar La and Joyeux Noel. 
:tallchappy


----------



## Madonna (24 Dec 2004)

*Re: A new historic insight*

That is certainly fresh info from Asi, that boy certainly mixes in high places.  The Brits sent in troops out of fear of an invasion by the Irish Army - did Jack Lynch's Dad's Army have secret WMD or what?

Never said I was educated by the CBs.  Asimov is carrying his selective quotations a bit too far when he ascribes statements from one contributor to another.

Asimov's irrational reaction is really quite revealing - all these years nurtured on a diet of "the poor Catholics of NI are really the most put upon souls in this planet and in all history".  He can't bear to give up his ingrained persecution complex.


----------



## Rabbit (25 Dec 2004)

*Re: A new historic insight*

Asinov, you write with great conviction, but you are incorrect about so much of what you write.

First of all, I am not a Rabid Paisleyite as you say.   However, I do not have the deeply ingrained hatred of him and his community which you have  
You say "The prehistoric fascist mentality of northern loyalists is still there, deeply ingrained in the likes of Paisley the DUP (and our own Rabid)".

Second, you say my English and grammar are so poor that my opinions may as well be dismissed, and you question my schooling.   I actually got an honour in honours English in the Irish Leaving Certificate, before I went to third level education , in Dublin incidentally.     I did not draw attention to your English grammar and spelling, which incidentally  is also far from perfect.  I would certainly not dismiss anyones opinions because of their inability to communicate, let alone their command of the written language. 

Third, you bring up "just recent" incidents outside the Holy Cross school.    I never condoned the loyalists in these incidents at Holy Cross.    They have let the children go to school in peace, even though they obviously have grievances.
The police, as I understand it, held the loyalists back / kept some control on the situation.  You say "These ( these loyalist mobs) are the same people Rabid praises for their 'honesty and integrity".  Wrong Asimov, you are taking my words "honesty and integrity" completely out of context.
It was in an earlier post when you bragged " why was it not the prods who robbed the Northern bank ? - because they are not smart enough ", or words to this effect.    I remarked in the same strain of humour  " No, because they have too much honesty and integrity."   
Before anyone says I am tarring everyone with the same brush, I am not.    There are of course stupid and smart people in both communities up North, as well as people with integrity and honesty in both communities.  This has been my experience anyway.     I  

Fourth, we can see Asinov's attitude to protestants / loyalists when he claims  "They are no better than the murdering b*****ds of Beslan."    Enough said.  Asinov, you say your day will come.    Yes, but will it come in a mental institution?

Fifth, you insulted my knowledge of history. What historical point did I say which was not true?   It was catholics who mostly educated me.  Unlike you it seems, I have many friends from *both* communities in N.I.; I think this helps give a better perspective on the overall situation.     


Finally, you are the first follower of Gerry Adams I met who wants the Adare bank robbers / Killer of Gerry McCabe to stay in jail.    This is interesting, considering that you follow the Sinn Fein line on most other things.   Or perhaps you did not know Gerry McCabe was killed in Adare. 

I would like to wish everyone peace and a happy Christmas. 
May all of the extremists become moderates in 2005.


----------



## Rabbit (25 Dec 2004)

*Re: A new historic insight*

Oops, On reading what I wrote I meant to say ( in Point no. 3 ) "the loyalists *should* have let the children go to school in peace" , instead of the loyalists have let the children go to school in peace.    Again, I do not agree with those loyalist protesters.  However, to be balanced, there have been lots of other incidents carried out by elements in both communities over the years which I , or any other civilized person I think, would not agree with.


----------



## Tharggy (25 Dec 2004)

*Re: A new historic insight*

I've been watching this with interest.
I must say I do indeed find it strange that a Catholic from NI (as Madonna says he is) would deny the decades, if not centuries of abuse sufferred by the minority community up there. It was patently clear to anyone with a pair of unprejudiced eyes.
Yet, there are those who still deny the deaths of millions of Jews in the Holocaust, and - while the two events bear no comparison in their degree - I guess its not such a big leap for him to dismiss the trivial complaints of a few hundred thousand Catholics.

I watched the program on Beslan on RTE2 last night, and indeed it seems to me that the people who threw blast bombs at the children of Holy Cross were no better than those who killed innocents in Beslan. Again, its just a matter of degree. It was only by sheer luck that children were not killed by a bomb...and the mental damage done will live with them long after. 
Whatever 'legitimate' issues you may think you have, nobody has the right to use children as targets. The RUC didn't cover themselves in glory either. Their job was not just to control a mob, but to keep the peace by whatever means necessary...which they failed to do.

By the way...in my career I've worked with ex Irish Air Corps pilots who told me exactly what Asimov said. I have no 'high level contacts', just contact with the people at the sharp end who were sitting on runways with a/c fuelled and armed to attack. Its no big secret.

Who knows what might have happened if those guys had been launched? There are many possible outcomes. Certainly Ireland has a small army compared to the UK and Maggie Thatcher (if she'd been in power) would probably have gone into full attack, but would the British Labour Government under Wilson have been so disposed? Its debatable that they would not...and that after external (UN? US?) intervention the British might have been glad to be able to hand the whole NI problem onto someone else.

Anyhow...its Christmas...War is Over...if you want it.


----------



## Madonna (25 Dec 2004)

*Re: Christmas is humbug!*

Tharggy, absolutely a question of degree.  NIRCs are wont to compare their lot with say the blacks of SA, or the Palestinians or even the Jews of the Third Reich.  Asimov went even further and drew analogies with the peasants of both the French and Russian revolutions.  These are totally utterly inappropriate comparisons but it is in the NIRC psyche to indulge such magolamaniac persecution complexes.

Asimov also talked of the NIRCs facing "total extermination", I thought that maybe this was a little over exuberance and that he might temper that theme but no, he seems genuinely to believe it and to believe that the Provos saved the NIRC community from extinction.

I have no doubt that Jack was maybe 25% the way to invading the North in 1969, absolutely no secret was made of it, as you point out - "sabre rattling" the British media dismissed it as.  You make a very interesting point, maybe it would have worked against Wilson (the Loyalists faced him down in 1974) but boy what a high risk strategy, I certainly didn't want any help from Jack's Dad's Army.  What is utterly preposterous is to suggest, as Asimov does, that Britain, faced with this deadly threat to its World strategic interests, made a pre-emptive deployment of troops on the ground.  The Brits went in to keep the two communities from their throats or more accurately to keep the Prods from the NIRC throats.  Blame them for causing the situation, suggest that their motives in controling the situation were not entirely selfless but please, please spare us these Republican fantasies.


----------



## Tharggy (25 Dec 2004)

*And A Merry Xmas To You Too*

NIRCs? 
Do you mean Catholics? in NI?
Well! Thats an acronym I've never heard before. 
Is it your own invention?

If I was a Northern Irish Catholic I would consider it both distasteful and insulting. 

Even as a (lapsed) Southern Irish Catholic - I consider it very much so! 

Am I just a "SIRC"? 
Or maybe a "LIRC"? 
Or "LSIRC"?
You yourself claim to be a "NIRC"! 
Or is it "LNIRC"?
What a dubious way to refer to oneself!

Actually, y'know what?.... I'm sceptical! I think the use of dehumanising diminutives does no credit to your case whatever! 

In fact, on reflection, I think you just blew it wide open.


----------



## Madonna (25 Dec 2004)

*Re: Balance*

That's much better Tharggy. The "I'm a balanced version of Asimov" routine didn't become you.  I much prefer the half two in the morning Tharggy ranting hysterically about a bit of name calling.


----------



## Rabbit (26 Dec 2004)

*Re: Balance*

Quote *the people who threw blast bombs at the children of Holy Cross*     Were there really explosive devices / blast bombs thrown at the children of Holy Cross ?   If so, were any children injured?  I do not remember hearing about such bombs, but I am open to correction.    Anyway, I and most people would condemn such action, and  is it not wrong to blame an entire community for the actions of a few?   Asimov blamed  entire community.   I would not tar all Northern Irish Roman Catholics with the same brush.    For example, one Belfast Roman Catholic won a Victoria Cross in WW2.  His attitude and beliefs contrasts with the attitude of some other northern Catholics, as shown by the reception he received from some in west Belfast after the war.

I really think it is a bit strong for Asimov to say the Protestant community in NI are like murdering thugs in Beslan.   There have been injustices done to sections of both communities over the years, and to attack one community using part of one incident as justification says it all.

If anyone should be compared with the Muslim fanatics / suicide bombers of recent years, it is the Provisional IRA, who I seem to remember kidnapping someones family, and then forcing the father of the family to drive a lorryload of explosives in to a British army checkpoint.   There are many other incidents / parallels.    Muslim extremists, FARC and the IRA have many things in common, including a hatred of the UK / US. 

As regards Irish air corps attacking N.I.....what a laugh.    More than one Irish person I know ( who incidentally are RC , not that it matters to the Brits ) owe their life to the British RAF and R.N.,  who plucked them from the North Atlantic in days gone by.    When the distress call was received by the Irish authorities, what did they do, because they had no suitable equipment or personnel .....phone the British.
Or maybe the Irish air corps pilot was on holidays !


----------



## Asimov (28 Dec 2004)

*Re: Balance*

Glad to see you've kept the home fires burning while I was away.
So much to say! So little time! Let me begin...


> First of all, I am not a Rabid Paisleyite as you say.


Really? You started right on the first page of this thread by praising and defending him. You tore into poor old Marie for daring to criticise him. This is the man who calls Catholics "vermin" and "followers of the anti-christ". I think the hat fits you Mr.Rabid, so wear it with pride like a true Paisleyite would. 


> I would certainly not dismiss anyones opinions because of their inability to communicate,


 Thats very funny. Did you think that through before you attempted to communicate it?





> I actually got an honour in honours English in the Irish Leaving Certificate


You haven't progressed much since, have you.


> Third, you bring up "just recent" incidents outside the Holy Cross school. I never condoned the loyalists in these incidents


Oh really....what about this?





> Were there really explosive devices / blast bombs thrown at the children of Holy Cross ? If so, were any children injured? I do not remember hearing about such bombs, but I am open to correction.


Then let me correct you!!
The answer is YES there were Blast Bombs thrown at the children, as well as bags of urine and faeces, not to mention the rocks, bolts,  spitting, or the curses and abuse. But like everything else about the history of Catholic persecution up there, your memory is *selective*. 





> is it not wrong to blame an entire community for the actions of a few?


Oh! Is this moderation creeping into your tone at long last? Or is your "understanding" only reserved for the loyalist offenders? 





> to attack one community using part of one incident as justification says it all.


Awww...really?
Then lets hear no more 'parts' of Republican 'incidents' either then. Fairs fair eh? A bit of balance etc....?

Some hope. Its not enough for you and Paisley that Republicans are prepared to forgive and forget, public penance is required just to establish firmly that the blame is all on one side...as Madonna likes to think.


----------



## Rabbit (28 Dec 2004)

*Re: Balance*

Quote *First of all, I am not a Rabid Paisleyite as you say.

Really? You started right on the first page of this thread by praising and defending him. You tore into poor old Marie for daring to criticise him.* 

Marie said untrue things about him before I mentioned him. Marie knew she said untrue things, and I had every right to correct her.  I did not tear in to her half as much as you and Marie tore in to Paisley.   Paisley has described the IRA as vermin, not ordinary catholics.    I personally know catholics who have met him and who have found him to be a gentleman.  If everyone who does not hate Paisley as much as you do is a Rabid Paisleyite, then there must be a lot of Rabid Paisleyites around.   As I said before, I never even voted for him or his party, yet you call me a Rabid Paisleyite !



Quote: *I would certainly not dismiss anyones opinions because of their inability to communicate,

Thats very funny. Did you think that through before you attempted to communicate it?*

No, I wrote it as you dismissed my opinions earlier in the thread because of alleged grammar mistakes, and said you would not even bother to debate any more with ignorant etc.


Quote:*I actually got an honour in honours English in the Irish Leaving Certificate[/b   You haven't progressed much since, have *

Thats not the point, is it ?  Does Sinn Fein now only accept criticism from people with language degrees ?


Quote: *Third, you bring up "just recent" incidents outside the Holy Cross school. I never condoned the loyalists in these incidents[/b   Oh really....what about t*
*Were there really explosive devices / blast bombs thrown at the children of Holy Cross ? If so, were any children injured? I do not remember hearing about such bombs, but I am open to correction.
Then let me correct you!!
The answer is YES there were Blast Bombs thrown at the children*,


There was a policeman injured by a blast bomb.   In the link you gave me there was no mention of children injured by a blast bomb.   I remember the policeman being injured, and of course there were riots by both sides, but according to someone I know in the area there were no blast bombs thrown at the children.  Anyway, as I said before, I never condoned the loyalists in these incidents.   Violence is never right.



Quote , I asked Asimov : *Is it not wrong to blame an entire community for the actions of a few?
Oh! Is this moderation creeping into your tone at long last?* 
I always was moderate, Asimov. Most extremists, except you, do not even blame an entire community for the actions of a few.   You earlier blamed the entire protestant community to the beasts of Beslan.

Quote *Or is your "understanding" only reserved for the loyalist offenders?*   What understanding is that, Asinov?   I never had an understanding for any loyalist offenders.   As I said before, there have been evil men in both communities.
I believe that when caught, offenders from both communities should be subject to the full rigours of the law, like everyone else.


Quote:
*--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
to attack one community using part of one incident as justification says it all.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Awww...really?
Then lets hear no more 'parts' of Republican 'incidents' either then. Fairs fair eh? A bit of balance etc....?*

You were the one who brought up "parts" of  Holy Cross, 1969 civil rights issues etc.    I just corrected your version of these a bit.   I did not mention Enniskillen, Le Mons, Darkley, Bloody Friday,etc etc...     Fairs fair is right, and a bit of balance.


Quote *Some hope. Its not enough for you and Paisley that Republicans are prepared to forgive and forget, public penance is required just to establish firmly that the blame is all on one side...as Madonna likes to think.* 


Stop thinking what you like to think Asimov.  Noboby said the blame is all on one side.  Noboby expects publin penance from the Republicans.   What people do want is the IRA to prove they have decommissioned at least some ( because nobody presumably knows for sure the total quantity of IRA munitions except the IRA ) weapons and semtex by photos.  Whats the big deal?   Paisley is not even insisting on a video of it.   Photos can easily be forged / changed, but they would be something.... enough for the peace process to proceed.  

And one question to you , Asimov, to clarify something you said earlier.     As you basically back the Sinn Fein position on everything, why do you not support their calls for the release of the murderers of Jerry McCabe?

And on a light hearted Christmas note, any new looking Northern bank notes surfacing around your area ?


Happy Xmas and peace in the New Year.


----------



## Tharggy (28 Dec 2004)

*Small minds*

Madonna, it might surprise you to learn that not everyone has the handy little 9 to 5 - Monday to Friday - Bank Holidays off type job you do! You may be coming home from the pub at 2:30AM, but I've been at work.

I never actually suggested that the Irish Army would defeat the British militarily. The point I was making was that - contrary to your trivialisation of the Loyalist violence of August 1969, the Irish Government had such a serious view of developments they made preparations to cross into NI to assist the Catholic population. 

Probably Jack Lynchs real intent was to force the British government to take action before *he* did. 
In which case, he succeeded. 

If *they* had not taken action, and things continued to deteriorate...I'm certain *he* would have moved, and who could possibly know the ultimate outcome of that. 
Not even you.

You also malign the Irish Air Corps search and rescue services in your ignorance. You need to be educated a little. 

Coastal cover has been provided by the Irish Air Corps since 1963, initially using Alouette helicopters. These were capable of rescues up to about 150 miles off the coast. They were later replaced by Gazelles (which the British Army used at that time) and lately by the high performance Dauphin. 

The Air Corps fleet is backed up by 5 commercially contracted Sikorsky S61s, which is the same long range heavy lift SAR helicopter that the British use. 

Search and Rescue (SAR) resources are shared between the UK and Ireland. It is certainly *not* the case that Irish seafarers must rely now...or ever...on the charity of the RAF. While RAF a/c may have pulled Irishmen out of the waters of the Atlantic, the Air Corps did the same for British sailors.

The Air Corps pilots have saved the lives of hundreds of mariners and members of the public over the last 40 years, often at great risk to their own lives. In 1999 four Irish Air Corps flyers lost their lives while returning from a rescue mission when their Dauphin hit the sand dunes at Tramore beach in thick fog.

It is appalling that you pair of fools would belittle the service of these men and women, whom you might yet rely on some day to save your worthless necks. 

It also strikes me as hypocritical that you shed crocodile tears over the killing of Gerry McCabe in Adare while in the same breath belittling the integrity and professionalism of other men who've also given their lives in the service of this state. 
You really are cynical, two faced, small minded cads.


----------



## Madonna (28 Dec 2004)

*Re: Wherefore now the peace process*

Tharggy, I am sure everything you say about the air corps is true, I think it a wee bit disingenuous to portray me as a "cad" for not paying these folk the respect I am sure they deserve.

Returning to the actual title of this thread.  I visited Andytown over the holiday.  Fantastic new mural in South Link celebrating "1905 - 2005 Sinn Fein 100 years of revolution".  I just mention that as evidence of my bona fides.

My friends and relations, almost universally SF supporters, were of one mind.  There can never be a foto.  "If SF concede a foto, I will never vote for them again" was a typical comment.  Paisley has (probably deliberately) created a situation where there is no possibility of a return to power sharing until he is in the warm place.

What I didn't draw to the attention of my friends was the fact that they are totally comfortable with Plan B i.e. direct rule by HMG.

At this stage the Northern conflict is all about pride and prejudice and Northern Irish Roman Catholics will *Never* *Never* *Never* give the doctor his required pound of flesh, and in this I agree with my fellow NIRCs.


----------



## Asimov (28 Dec 2004)

*Re: Wherefore now the peace process*

Rabbit mind you don't hurt yourself with those mental gymnastics you're displaying.

A Loyalist throws a (non existent?!) blast bomb at a group of schoolchildren...it misses them and hits a cop...but thats OK then, 'cos they missed the kids?:rolleyes    
The same crowd later fired shots at the police. 
Guess thats OK too?

Where is the decommissioning of these Loyalist bombs and guns? While Loyalists were (innacurately) throwing bombs at schoolchildren, and shooting at police men...the IRA was holding the 4th year of ceasefire.
It still holds.

As to Paisleys comments...I don't blame you for wishing they were untrue. Tell you what...if I verify his comments were real, and related not to the IRA, but to ALL Catholics, will you disown Paisley immediately as a sicko bigot?

Lets see you have the courage of your convictions...are you for him or ag'in him? Or do you just pick and choose the bits you like?


----------



## Madonna (29 Dec 2004)

*Re: Paisley*

According to someone I met in Belfast there was an excellent article in the British Guardian newspaper which recalled some of Paisley's outrageous comments of the past.  The thrust of the article was to express total incredulity that this man had within his grasp the First Ministership of NI.  

I too find that Grotesque Unbelievable Bizzarre and Unprecedented and one of the most GUBU aspects of it is that SFIRA and the Taoiseach and Madam President all entertain this monster.  Didn't Mary say something like it was one of her happiest moments to see Paisley across the table from Bertie.  This is tripe.  The man should be outed.  It is he who needs to be humiliated.


----------



## Asimov (29 Dec 2004)

*Re: Paisley*

The Taoiseach and The President are bound to try to deal with him, God help 'em. 
No doubt many people have made the elementary mistake of thinking that by being positive toward Paisley they can disarm him. _(No pun intended)_
FAT CHANCE! 
As John Hume once said...'if they removed the word NO from the english language, Ian Paisley would be speechless'.

Madonna, I can't believe...we seem to finally agree on something. 
I think....?


----------



## Rabbit (29 Dec 2004)

*Re: Paisley*

Quote *A Loyalist throws a (non existent?!) blast bomb at a group of schoolchildren...it misses them and hits a cop...but thats OK then, 'cos they missed the kids? 
The same crowd later fired shots at the police. 
Guess thats OK too?*
Some loyalists - not all loyalists - threw the bomb at the police, among other things.   Nobody said it was OK.    As I said before , I condemn all violence.  Can you not read?


Quote *Where is the decommissioning of these Loyalist bombs and guns? While Loyalists were (inaccurately) throwing bombs at schoolchildren, and shooting at police men...the IRA was holding the 4th year of ceasefire.* 

I am all for all loyalist guns and bombs to be decommissioned as well.   The LVF have already decommissioned some guns on television - is this, or it it not, more than the IRA has done ?   Also, the PIRA will admit, if not boast, about having a much bigger supply of arms and semtex - how many boatloads came from Libya alone ?   Some of the weaponry the provos have is beyond that ever found in loyalist hands e.g. some of the specialist machine guns - capable of shooting down helicopters, state of the art sniper rifles , semtex etc.
Sinn Fein has got its reforms of the RUC, its men out of prison - is it not time it gave something in return ?  Everyone except Sinn Fein thinks it is.

Which reminds me - why were you against the Sinn Fein push to get Gerry McCabes killers out of prison?  I asked you this already twice but you did not answer.


----------



## Rabbit (29 Dec 2004)

*Re: Paisley*

Madonna said "*My ( Madonna's) friends and relations, almost universally SF supporters, were of one mind. There can never be a foto. "If SF concede a foto, I will never vote for them again" was a typical comment*"

Why do they not get Sinn Fein / IRA to give up some semtex, like the type that was used in the Omagh bomb, so , if they are against a photo ?    I feel sorry for such people.  The rest of us have had to endure the photos , not of guns and semtex being cut up / destroyed, but of bodies and people with horrific injuries.   What sick people.


----------



## Asimov (29 Dec 2004)

*Re: Paisley*

Rabbit, I've made several attempts to get you to listen and think, but you only want to hear the sound of your own voice. 

You dismiss anyone who agrees with SF *in any respect* as a 'Shinner'. I asked you what you think makes someone a 'Shinner' and you never responded. I tried to get you to think about it in terms of your own support for Paisley...but you still didn't get it. 

The point is...when you label me a Shinner, or a Terrorist sympathiser, or whatever the hell else...why are you surprised or annoyed when I label you a Rabid Paisleyite.

I'm no 'shinner', any more than you are a paisleyite. 
I don't agree with everything SF has ever said or done, any more than you'll admit to agreeing with everything Paisley has ever said or done.

Its about time you dropped the stupid demonising attitude to all republicans and recognise that there are good people on both sides trying to sort this mess out.


----------



## Rabbit (29 Dec 2004)

*Re: Paisley*

Quote "*Rabbit, I've made several attempts to get you to listen and think, but you only want to hear the sound of your own voice.  You dismiss anyone who agrees with SF in any respect as a 'Shinner'. I asked you what you think makes someone a 'Shinner' and you never responded"*

Rubbish.    When  / where did I even use the word Shinner?
Madonna says his friends and relations vote SF - does that not make them SF supporters?  If someone says they agree with most Sinn Fein policies, more so than those of any other political party, then are they not a Sinn Fein supporter?




Quote *I tried to get you to think about it in terms of your own support for Paisley...but you still didn't get it.* 

You still seem to think I support Paisley ?  I never even voted for him or his party in my life.   However, when untrue and unfair thing are said about somebody, I would stand up for them, just as I would for any other politician.   I am lucky in that I am not burdened with the hatred you and some other people have for him.

*I'm no 'shinner', any more than you are a paisleyite.* 

Really ?  So you admit I am not a paisleyite - and you now say you are not a "shinner" ( your word, not mine ).

Quote *I don't agree with everything SF has ever said or done, any more than you'll admit to agreeing with everything Paisley has ever said or done.*

Well I suppose perhaps nobody would ever totally agree with everything anybody has said or done.

*Its about time you dropped the stupid demonising attitude to all republicans*
Who said I had a demonising attitude to all republicans?  You have put two and two together and got five - or one million and five - again.   I have grown up with, lived with, slept with, worked with, voted for republicans ( in the broadest sense of the word ).   I will not tell you what I am , but it should be clear I am not a Paisleyite or a Sinn Fein supporter.



Quote * and recognise that there are good people on both sides trying to sort this mess out.*    At last.    I cannot believe that you said that, after some of the things you said earlier.   I shake your hand and I salute anyone who can put the past behind them and work for a peaceful future together.  

Just one question : why do you not support the calls for the release of the murderers of Jerry McCabe ?


----------



## Madonna (30 Dec 2004)

*Re: Omagh bombers*

Rabbit, I see you are finding the absurdities of the Northern situation a bit hard to follow.  It is not a requirement, even of the good doctor, that the Continuity/Real IRA should decommission in order for Grizzly and his mates to get their Mercs.

What is needed in the case of the Omagh bombers is clear to everyone.  Channel 4 identified the culprits, an identification that was unchallenged despite the enormous damages that could be earned if disproved.  They're guilty alright and alive and well in God's wee Republic.  It is impossible to convict these men through the normal process because of massive intimidation.  What the South should do is set up a special non-jury court of three judges, try these men and then lock them up for life.  

Bertie should then send a letter to the people of Omagh giving a Taoiseac's solemn promise that they will never be released. On second thoughts, we can dispense with the solemn promise.


----------



## Rabbit (30 Dec 2004)

*Re: Omagh bombers*

I agree with most of what you say, Madonna.   I know that getting the real / continuity to disarm / decommission would be practically impossible, but what the Good Friday Agreement does expect, and what most people would expect,  is for the provos to decommission at least a significant quantity of semtex / arms.     Most people do not think this has really happened yet, for whatever reason.    It would be a badly needed gesture of goodwill on the provos part, after all the incidents which proved they were not inactive.   They still could have lots of arms and explosives that nobody else knows about, such is their arsenal, and the rest of us , including Dr. Paisley, have given our word we would trust them IF they showed us photos of arms they had destroyed / decommissioned.  The longer they play word games and pussy foot around with peace the more likely it is that dissident republicans / ex provos may steal / use these some of these arms and explosives.   I do not think any of us want that.


----------



## Madonna (8 Jan 2005)

*Re: Well, well, well*

well, well, well,well, well, well,well, well, well,well, well, well,well, well, well,well, well, well,well, well, well,well, well, well,well, well, well,well, well, well,well, well, well,well, well, well,well, well, well, well, well,well, well, well,well,well, well, well,

so it was the IRA after all!


----------



## Rabbit (8 Jan 2005)

*Re: Well, well, well*

Yeah, just what the dogs on the street were saying. 
But  then again, what did you expect ? Adams says he was never in the IRA .  We all know he was.  Does anyone believe Sinn Fein except themselves ?


----------



## Asimov (8 Jan 2005)

*Rubbish, Where's the proof?*

So the police comissioner of NI has decided that, in spite of his lacking any hard evidence or any sort of a lead - 'the IRA dunnit'. :lol  
I won't claim to be surprised to see an RUC man readying up his case, but its laughable to see the head of the PSNI at it, and in public too. Guilty until proven innocent? Evidence? Got a photograph perhaps? Nah...we don't need 'em...we JUST KNOW. :lol 

Hey Madonna, did you see what Wilson was planning in 1974? Emergency evacuation from NI. The so called 'Doomsday scenario'...which YOU said the Brits would never contemplate.
If the South had moved on the border (as I revealed they were preparing to do) it seems now that there would have been no confrontation from Her Majesties Forces after all, but rather a quick handover of the keys and a grateful departure. Eat crow old boy.

Incidentally, I thought of you and laughed while I listened to that old 1974 William Craig interview played on RTE last Sunday in which, after much dancing, he finally blurted that 'the Protestant people' would be right to take up arms and murder innocent Catholics to bring down the power sharing executive and Sunningdale. Peaceful proddies me This post will be deleted if not edited to remove bad language.

I can see this whole thing falling apart now. I forecast Adams and McGuinness will find themselves losing control of the hardliners and headbangers. If that happens and splinter groups break away then violence might well break out again, and all this effort will have been wasted. Hope you enjoy the prospect of that outcome. 
You've asked for it.


----------



## Madonna (8 Jan 2005)

*Re: Letter from Andytown*

Actually, the good folk of Andytown are brimful with pride that the "boys" pulled this one off - and sure nobody was hurt - real Robin Hood stuff.  The place is full of jokes as to what the 'RA are doing with the money. They feel a bit peeved that the likes of McGuinnes have to issue denials because of political pressure.  Even the IRA have ceased issuing denials simply refering to attempts by securocrats :x   to criminalise their volunteers.

What about Dermot "No Principles" Aherne.  He tells us that this is a setback sure, but there has been far worse things done such as murder.  Clearly Dermo has no problem whatsoever in negotiating with these bandits tomorrow even sharing power with them but he does recognise that those fusspots in the DUP will need more time.

Do spare a thought for the Castlerea 4.  There they were with their hopes sky hi for Christmas release and then their mates betray them.  These same mates probably commited even worse crimes than they did, got released under the Good Friday Surrender, and now can look forward to a life of luxury - and damn the Castlerea 4 as far as they are concerned - and in that I concur.


----------



## Marie (8 Jan 2005)

*curiouser and curiouser*

This is getting very weird.  This morning's news here in the UK was full of prevarication.  To journalist's question "Did the IRA rob the bank" the response is "There is a strong suspicion....." FOR HEAVENS SAKE!!!If there is evidence that the IRA did THIS bank robbery lets hear it!  Next question the journalists ask is "Do you think the Sinn Feinn leadership were cognisant?" Response "We have every reason to believe the Sinn Feinn leadership wish to continue to develop towards power-sharing"  WHAT???

The other news story which most resembles this is the "weapons of mass destruction" scam perpetrated by the present UK government on the electorate in justification for an unjustifyable invasion of Iraq.

One must learn to recognise the similarities, then frame-ups won't take the place of objective truth.

Asimov refers to the depressing prospect that if (and it is a big "if"!!) the IRA did the bank job it would indicate that perhaps the organisation is splintering into sub-groupings.  In terms of organisational dynamics this is a common signal of dissolution of an institution.  The "IRA" has always been a temporary institution materialised in response to  perceived social threat.  When the danger is past the organisation disperses.  It is not good news if during that dissolution every act of every sector is used to delay the process of integration and stabilisation in Northern Ireland.  It is not good news that these situations continue to be used by the hawks to vindicate their own bloodlust when the blood in question happens to be that of the community - most of whom, on both "sides" - have never been actively part of the conflict and who are heartily sick of it.


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## Rabbit (10 Jan 2005)

*Re: curiouser and curiouser*

Asomov said "*So the police comissioner of NI has decided that, in spite of his lacking any hard evidence or any sort of a lead - 'the IRA dunnit'." *

In fairness to the police commissioner I think he said there was evidence pointing in a certain direction, but they would not - as is their right or the right of any investagitive police force - not release this information at this point in time.

Quote " *Hey Madonna, did you see what Wilson was planning in 1974? Emergency evacuation from NI. The so called 'Doomsday scenario'...which YOU said the Brits would never contemplate.
If the South had moved on the border (as I revealed they were preparing to do) it seems now that there would have been no confrontation from Her Majesties Forces after all, but rather a quick handover of the keys and a grateful departure*." 

Rubbish.   As long as most people in Northern Ireland wanted to say in the UK, The UK would not desert them because of a scattering of terrorists.  And the Irish army had no intention of actually invading N. Ireland - what a laugh.

Quote *Peaceful proddies me This post will be deleted if not edited to remove bad language.*

You cannot tar an entire community with the same brush.  As we all know ( except yourself ) there are good and bad in both communities.


Quote *You've asked for it.* 

No: if the peace process falls apart, it is the IRA that has asked for it.


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## Marie (11 Jan 2005)

*Selective Memory*

Memory is soooo selective, isn't it?  Out of the blue, apropos a "suspicion", it is the IRA who are the cause of the peace process falling apart......and the Rev. Paisley's stance on photographs of weapons being destroyed - a mere few weeks ago the "cause" of the process de-railing - has disappeared.

The magic of bias!


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## Rabbit (11 Jan 2005)

*Re: Selective Memory*

The polls showed the vast majority of people in N. I. wanted proof of decommissing.   As you say , memory is soo selective, if the IRA only offered some photos it would have moved the situation along.     Why did they not ?   Practically all other elected politicians except Sinn Fein backed Paisleys request for photos, and virtually all political parties in these  islands ( except Sinn Fein again of course ) now seem to have accepted that the IRA had a hand in the Northern bank robbery. 

I always maintained there were plenty of atrocities committed by both sides in the North, and there are good and bad on both sides.   Would you agree Marie ?  What about the magic of bias now ?


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## Asimov (16 Jan 2005)

*Re: Selective Memory*



> Actually, the good folk of Andytown are brimful with pride that the "boys" pulled this one off


Madonna I think its far from Andersonstown you picked up on any such notion. Given your deeply held anti-Catholic / anti-Republican views I would consider it a highly dangerous place for you to go around soliciting anyones views on the IRA or its culpability...given it is inhabited mainly by Catholics and Republicans. 

No, I think you've just been reading too much of Sam Smyths scribblings in the Indo. 
Hell...maybe you *are* Sam Smyth, all that "Well Well Well" stuff...was that the famous Sam Smyth Stutter or just an outbreak of verbal (textual?) diahorrea?

Always remember Madonna...whatever the man on the street thinks...material proof is the decider. Anything else is just idle speculation and the devils handywork....as Big Ian would say.



> In fairness to the police commissioner I think he said there was evidence pointing in a certain direction, but they would not - as is their right or the right of any investagitive police force - not release this information at this point in time.


More verbal gymnastics from Rabbit.
I watched a BBC4 news program a few days ago in which four current affairs commentators - a Frenchman, a German, a Yank and a Brit - all expressed amazement and confusion (their words) at the press conference held by Orde. They all pointed out quite correctly that no Police Commisioner could possibly express the views he did without realising the impact they would have on the peace process and therefore without explicit clearance from Government. And given his lack of any shred of evidence to backup his assertions the only conclusion they could therefore draw was that the British Government - for some reason - was content to see the peace process derailed on a whim. This they found disturbing and counter productive...as do I.
I have no difficulty accepting the consequences for the peace process if Orde had an iota of evidence to back up his pronouncement, but without it - the simple bald fact stands - that he, with the concensus of the British Government, has arbitrarily set out to destroy the process.


> Rubbish. As long as most people in Northern Ireland wanted to say in the UK, The UK would not desert them because of a scattering of terrorists....what a laugh.


It appears you haven't been reading the just released documents from the period. Here's a link....the laughs on you.





> Re William Craig: You cannot tar an entire community with the same brush.


No? Who was Craig? Was he not the Home Affairs Minister in Stormont? A Government representative? A founding member and Leader of the far right Vanguard Party? Was it a One Man Party? 
And what about Paisley, who also advocated taking up arms in 1974 to destroy the power sharing that Madonna erroneously asserted was already 'on the cards' in 1969?
What about the bigotted and sectarian Orange Order, its 75,000 membership and anti Catholic triumphalism? What about the UVF and UDA - the strong men that backed up the Loyalist leadership with their guns and bombs? What about the general Protestant population of NI who acted illegally against HM Government in 1974 and used [broken link removed] to shut the country down...all to make sure Taigs had NO SAY in the running of the state. 
At what point do you remove the blinkers and recognise that the ingrained sectarianism of the Protestant establishment in NI was not just a misrepresentation of "isolated loonies" in the Loyalist camp?


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## Rabbit (17 Jan 2005)

*Re: Selective Memory*

Your links betray where you got much of you political indoctrination, Asimov.    The usual sad old provo websites , another page ending with "Tiocaidh ar la" , another page from the workers solidarity movement etc.   

You think anybody that does not agree with your extreme views is "anti-catholic and anti-republican".   It is quite sad and perhaps the result of too much anti-English hatred fermenting in your mind over time.   Perhaps you will get better, I hope you will.


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## Tommy (17 Jan 2005)

*Re: Selective Memory*



> Given your deeply held anti-Catholic / anti-Republican views I would consider it a highly dangerous place for you to go around soliciting anyones views on the IRA or its culpability...given it is inhabited mainly by Catholics and Republicans.



In other words, agree with us or we will beat you up or worse.


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## Asimov (17 Jan 2005)

*Spinning away.....*

Er, no Tommy...in other words you don't go around the seamier areas of Belfast, Dublin, Limerick, Glasgow, Birmingham - or elsewhere - looking for trouble. 
Madonna suggests he does exactly that, which is patent rubbish. 
Nice spin though!

So Rabbit, the BBC, Wikipedia and Geocities are now to be considered as Provo websites?

And are you suggesting that the 1974 UWC strike was a figment of MY imagination? Or that the recently released documents relating to British withdrawal are made up? By me perhaps? :lol 

Interesting hypotheses.

You sure you're feeling alright? 
Bit of a Monday hangover maybe?


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## Gabriel (17 Jan 2005)

*Re: Spinning away.....*

From reading through your posts on this topic Asimov, "spin" appears to be your middle name.


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## Asimov (17 Jan 2005)

*Re: Spinning away.....*

You're just brainwashed Gabriel. Any notion which doesn't agree with the "Conventional Wisdom" or the "Party Line" in this country is heresy. Its shocking to most people that anyone would even DARE to argue against it, such is the level of  conditioning by the media.

Personally, I think some balance is needed, and I'm providing it here.

Free your mind.


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## Gabriel (17 Jan 2005)

*Re: Spinning away.....*

If by _balance_ you mean mocking everyone who doesn't agree 100% with your point of view and if by _brainwashing_ you mean believing you're always right and everyone else is merely brainwashed into believing what they believe then you're right.


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## Asimov (17 Jan 2005)

*Re: Spinning away.....*

I back up my statements with evidence (i.e. appropriate links in this case)...unlike Hugh Orde who provides none, and Rabbit who simply ignores the facts.

As to wanting everyone to agree with my point of view...I couldn't give a halfpenny damn what you believe, there are the blind and then there are those who refuse to see. 
But I do reserve the right to challenge lies and fabrication.


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## Madonna (17 Jan 2005)

*Re: Well, well, well*

Asi, let's get one thing straight, the IRA dunnit.  Even the Sunday Business Post (almost as republican as An Phoblacht) accepts that.  Even poor old Grizzly is saying things like "if the IRA didn't tell him about their plans, it is very serious...".  Not so sure any more is he?  And what about the IRA - no public denial from P O'Neill - all we have is Grizzly and Marty's statement that the IRA told them they didn't do it - I am sure that's what they did say.  

Come on, Asi, even you initially accepted that it was the IRA though on the somewhat dubious argument that Prods wouldn't be clever enough, I think the PSNI have more evidence than that!


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## Rabbit (18 Jan 2005)

*Re: Did someone say "The Peace Process is almost comple*

So you think your links are unbiased , Asimov ?  You use them to back up your argument. 

I can tell you right now they are as biased as the words from a drunken provo on a Saturday night, or a drunken UVF man for that matter.   Look up your link on "Paisley", for example.
The main website that this article is taken off is an extreme republican website.   At the beginning it says " *Failte .  This website is dedicated to the Nationalist people of the six counties. Their treatment at the hands of an Anti-Catholic Police Force and British Army thugs goes largely un-noticed by the world's media as a result of some very clever British propaganda"*  This website is where you get your links which you provided for Paisley, the orange order etc etc.


As a citizen of the republic who has spent time in N. Ireland and who has friends there from both sides of the fence, I can tell you that it is your website links which are propaganda, even though they are hosted on yahoo geocities.  Much of what is on your provo type website is untrue, much is taken out of context or misquoted.  If this is the information on which you base your opinions, then no wonder your views are as undemocratic and extreme as they are.


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## Tharggy (18 Jan 2005)

*Rabbit Rabbit*

Ahh jeez lads, come on. Lets have some decommissioning. :lol


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## Rabbit (18 Jan 2005)

*Re: Rabbit Rabbit*

My sentiment exactly.   Well said.


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## Marie (19 Jan 2005)

*Return to Reason*

Sooooooo........? Irrespective of who stole the unusable dosh...........if any of the contributors here were in the shoes of the man George Bush calls *Bertie Acorn* how would you get the peace process back on track?


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## Rabbit (19 Jan 2005)

*Re: Return to Reason*

Unusable dosh ?   A lot of it is in used notes.    A lot of it has possibly been laundered by now.   To get the peace process back on track the IRA have to do what everyone wants them to do : to make at least a significant gesture on decommissioning, and to show it is serious by proving ( for example by photos or videpo ) decommissioning has taken place.


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## Madonna (19 Jan 2005)

*Re: Peace process*

Marie, the peace process is well on track and probably for the first time on a sensible track.  The people of NI can look forward to a period of relative stability under direct rule from London and little chance, at least for the time being, of further concessions to recalcitrant criminals and terrorists.  

It seems highly unlikely, given all that has happened, that the IRA will resume a campaign which by 1994 was going nowhere and besides their volunteers are only out on licence - they have an awful lot to lose by resuming their terrorist outrages - they must content themselves with low level criminality in their fiefdoms.  There isn't a Fenian's chance on the Shankill of a resumption of street protest and the uprising of the Catholic community, they know they never had it so good.

If what you really meant Marie is what should be done to get the appeasement process back on track - absolutely nothing IMHO.


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## Marie (20 Jan 2005)

*illusion and reality*

That suggestion was intended as a means of halting the mud-slinging, actually!  However that appears to be an impossibility.  Is it possible for individuals and groups with such entrenched and bitter feelings towards "the other" that a small territory can revert to normality by fiat of the spindoctors (and here I restrain myself advisedly from mentioning the other  "Doctor")! The reality is that the last thirty years have wreaked havoc on the social contract in Ireland.  

We have the precedent of the effects of the Treaty of Versaille in fuelling Germany's hubris and aggression in WWII. Who was it who said "It's not important who wins the war; what is important is who wins the peace".

Conflict cannot end but honourably.  There is no honour but rather degradation if one tribe/group/faction whatever you want to name them continues to hurl insult and abuse and hold the "other" responsible.

I love and value my country and have a lot to do with and for it whilst living where my "next-door neighbour" is a garrison of 5,700 British soldiers, some of whom are personal friends.  The world is a complex place.  I often feel despairing that the horror and hatred around Partition will simply go "underground" whilst this issue will move out of the journalistic spotlight.  Maturity involves taking responsibility and taking thought;  conflict and hate need the work of being articulated and processed.  My heroes are those women and men (a number of whom I am honoured to call friends) who work quietly and determinedly for reconciliation.  An Israeli Jewish colleague works to bring individual Jews into dialogue with Germans........and Palestinians into dialogue with Israeli Jews!  This kind of reconciliation is the most difficult and delicate enterprise and is gruellingly difficult.  Making something  

Perhaps what is redundant is the antagonistic stance.  Were that to be dissolved all else follows.  If antagonism and the retaliatory impulse continue in peoples' hearts public rituals, press conferences, and the smashing up of weapons do not matter, nor will it matter whether they are photographed!   

May you prosper!


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## Rabbit (24 Jan 2005)

*Re: illusion and reality*

Marie wrote "the smashing up of weapons do not matter, nor will it matter whether they are photographed"

Well, most people think it is wrong for terrorist groups to have illegial high powered weapons and explosives, especially on the scale that has been revealed by Libya. If Sinn Fein wants to retain its place in democratic company it should use its influence to get the IRA to disband.   If weapons are used it does matter.    If they are photographed showing they cannot be used ,it does matter.


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## Marie (25 Jan 2005)

*illusion and reality*

You twist my words and miss my point and represent me as condoning violence when I have very carefully said the opposite!

Have a look at the dozens of posts since the beginning of this thread and then direct me to any one of those which condones murder violence or lawbreaking/evading.

My last post cogently expressed my view that not any superficial populist or bodge-solution to the rancour and destruction in Ireland was sufficient.  It indicated that after decomissioning comes the even more difficult and urgent task of _change of heart and language _ of _all_ concerned.

There appears to be little understanding in some quarters that destroying the weapons is the _start_ of the peace-process not the _end_.

This is my final post on this subject.


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## Rabbit (25 Jan 2005)

*Re: illusion and reality*

Marie said "_You twist my words and miss my point and represent me as condoning violence when I have very carefully said the opposite_!"

Sorry Marie, but I quoted directly from you ,and I therefore doid not twist your words.   I think you know your were wrong in what you said about decommissioning and photographs.   I did not represent you as condoning violence, and please do not accuse me of doing so.

You say "_There appears to be little understanding in some quarters that destroying the weapons is the start of the peace-process not the end."_    The peace process has being in existence for quite a good few years now.  What has the Good Friday Agreement and all the other works over the years being about isf it was not a peace process.  The peace process is not something which will begin or end with destroying the weapons.  Nobody ever suggested it was.

Anyway, we both condemn violence, and this is my last post on this subject also.


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