# IT Positions -help.



## Rover45 (21 May 2007)

Hi,
I work for a computer company in sales . I've been trying for months to get into a tech support role. I went for an interview within the company for tech support role (level 3 support) I was told (1 month later) that although I have the qualifcations and knowledge for the job they turned me down as I have no " hands on experience" . I've applied for more tech jobs than I care to remember and stilll no one has gotten back to me( bar alienware ,thanks guys)  . How am I supposed to get this " hands on experience" if no one is willing to give me a chance to prove myself? I've worked for that company for 2 years I know more than the techs themselves do ( I actually fixed a the pc of the guy who got the job I applied for   ...computer degree my aunt F%£$y ) ,I'm also the first one that everyone turns to for tech info. Has anyone any advice on this its really getting to me as it is the career I want . 

Thanks.


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## States (22 May 2007)

I'd suggest doing a training course...maybe a FAS course.  Although you may have the experience, this will show any employer that you're realy committed.   
Also, don't be too demanding salary wise to start off with but when you've proven yourself then you're in a position to bargain.
Good luck!


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## cerberos (22 May 2007)

"I know more than the techs themselves do ( I actually fixed a the pc of the guy who got the job I applied for  ...computer degree my aunt F%£$y ) "

>>> Is this a basic attitude problem?
>>> Why were you fixing PCs if its not your job?
>>> Do you make your opinions on computers degrees known?
>>> Have you asked within your current company?

It is normally NOT a problem to get an opportunity in the company you are currently workin for.

I think you need to step back and look at your self and see what they people to whom you are interacting with and applying to are seeing.

C


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## aircobra19 (22 May 2007)

What IT qualifications do you have?

Do some certs like A+ in your own time.


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## Rover45 (22 May 2007)

Hi guys, 
I have the A+ cert and a FAS cert in pc maintance and repair. I was fixing the techs pc because he couldnt . 

Cerberos- I don't understand this ">>> Is this a basic attitude problem?" --are you asking if I have an attitude problem??

Cheers,
R


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## aircobra19 (22 May 2007)

I think hes saying do other people have a good opinion of you? Perhaps theres something else than just skillset and experience to why they aren't interested in you for the position. Could be people simply can't see you in another role and you'll have to move laterally or to another company to get around that. Could be a personality clash. Some people don't like when others stray from their job spec, or are dismissive of qualifications. 

I could be wrong but I think for some reason cerberos think you're being dismissive of all computers degrees not just this person, the latter is how I took it. In my experience a degree isn't always a good indication of someone ability in a work enviroment. But thats getting sidetracked from the main issue here. Which is...

They won't give you the role, because you don't have experience, but you can't get experience in that company. Catch 22. So I think the message from them is, you'll never get that job in that company. Why I have no idea. On paper and from what you've said you've the skillset.


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## cerberos (22 May 2007)

Yes in a way. 

For example: How do you come across to others???

You seem to scorn a Computing Degree. (You know more, maybe smarter than them)

I know mechanical engineers who could not fix a toaster but it does not meant their degrees or knowledge is poor.

You should put youself on a path to obtaining a degree in the field you aspire to (you case a BSC in computing).

Someone considering you will note this (You may only be in year 1 but thats OK as you are starting on a defined path)

Remember the old interview question where do you see your self in 5 years) {Ans: working in the technical area you aspirec to and starting your MSC at night} (means you have succeeded in gettinmg your degree at night = ambition, hard work, drive, ability to juggle, ability to manage time...................)

Don't want to insult you but think how you come across to others (especially those in the area you want to join).

C


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## z109 (23 May 2007)

Cerberos, if you read the original posting again, you'll see:
"I've applied for more tech jobs than I care to remember and stilll no one has gotten back to me( bar alienware ,thanks guys)"
It's unlikely in the extreme that an insulting attitude comes across on an application form.

So the entirely reasonably question still applies as to how to get into tech support without the two years experience demanded.

My tuppence would be that your best bet would be an internal transfer in the company you are in; if the company you are in won't give you an internal transfer, then move company (as sales) to somewhere you are more likely to get into tech support, for example, a technology company with a big tech support department (?). Make sure the tech support is in-house, though. It would be a nasty surprise to arrive somewhere and find it's been outsourced!

HTH,
E.

PS for what it's worth, my belief is that a computer science degree is a poor background for anything other than whatever happens to be the current flavour of the month at the time of the degree. IMHO you learn what you need to know to do the job, not the other way around.


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## aircobra19 (23 May 2007)

Personally I think the Comp Sci degree gives you an all round grounding in the fundamentals, and principles. Which reap benefits in the long term. You don't need it, but its good to have. Increasingly its a min req, to get to interview.


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## HotdogsFolks (23 May 2007)

Eircom.net, their tech support engineers generally have no previous technical experience (I used to work there.) 

When you say employers don't even bother getting back to you, is it possible your cover letter or CV are bad? You work in sales - are you selling yourself with your cover letter?

If I were you I'd emphasise your sales experience - talking to customers on the phone, handling irate customers who are unhappy with whatever they bought, keeping control of the phone call, etc. I'd mention your lovely telephone manner, your patient personality (if you're not patient you will hate tech support btw,) your technical qualifications and why you love tech support and aren't just looking for a temp job.

Have a peep here -

[broken link removed]


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## cerberos (24 May 2007)

"It's unlikely in the extreme that an insulting attitude comes across on an application form."

Agred, but why can he not move into support in his current firm and if no position available then get a recommendation from a techie or a techie manager to another company (all have contacts)



"PS for what it's worth, my belief is that a computer science degree is a poor background for anything other than whatever happens to be the current flavour of the month at the time of the degree. IMHO you learn what you need to know to do the job, not the other way around."

Do not agree with this statement by YOGAMAHEW.

Could this for most degrees but this misses the purpose of a Degree Course. (also some colleges specialise in particular areas (JavA/NET, Games programming/Networking,  etc)

Also, we find that in genereal Degree/Diploma students are more adaptable in a fast moving environment as they have a basic understanding of a new area ..............)

C


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## aircobra19 (24 May 2007)

Like HotdogsFolks said. If your cover letter and CV are bad then that would explain why you get no response. I would also say that personal contacts and social networking is usually a more successful way of find a job than mail shots and email applications.


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## gearoid (24 May 2007)

aircobra19 said:


> Personally I think the Comp Sci degree gives you an all round grounding in the fundamentals, and principles. Which reap benefits in the long term. You don't need it, but its good to have. *Increasingly its a min req, to get to interview.*


In the programming and development side the degree is now a must I'd say. I'm in the industry since the early 90s, and I've work with guys without a degree to their name. Some of them were very good, some not, but all of them are of a certain age, meaning they got into the industry the same time I did. All the younger developers have relevant degrees or diplomas as far as I have seen.


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## z109 (24 May 2007)

Sorry, I should have been clear that by "flavour of the month" I meant whatever particular programming/development method was in vogue (see .net, c#, c++, java, oo, rdbms, etc.). A degree is a good grounding for those specialties.

And I agree that a degree is usually a minimum requirement to get into any technical area these days - that's where I think the mistake is. I too have worked in development/project management for the last xx years (too many to count now!). I have a history degree. I have tried to train people with current comp. sci. degrees in the specialty I work in (IBM assembler) and it is a disaster - it doesn't relate to anything that they've been trained in. People with no specific training 'get it' more quickly.


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## aircobra19 (24 May 2007)

Yogi I think you must live in an alternate universe or something  or maybe you've borrowed a time machine from somewhere.


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## A_b (24 May 2007)

Rover45 said:


> Hi guys,
> I have the A+ cert and a FAS cert in pc maintance and repair. I was fixing the techs pc because he couldnt .
> 
> Cerberos- I don't understand this ">>> Is this a basic attitude problem?" --are you asking if I have an attitude problem??
> ...




Generally people who have IT degrees don't study maintenance etc but programming so it doesn't really show that he doesn't have the intelligence etc to do it.


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## A_b (24 May 2007)

where are you living??


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## z109 (24 May 2007)

Hey, where can I get one of those? 

Yes, that is the sort of technology I'm working with - at least from the programming point of view. It is also the sort of technology every major (scheduled) airline and financial institution is working with (assembler, cobol...).



aircobra19 said:


> Yogi I think you must live in an alternate universe or something  or maybe you've borrowed a time machine from somewhere.


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## Towger (24 May 2007)

aircobra19 said:


> Yogi I think you must live in an alternate universe or something  or maybe you've borrowed a time machine from somewhere.



I wonder if I can build one of those scramblers with an old 300 baud acoustic coupler.

Cobol... Those were the days.. Still using 74 or upgraded to 85?


Towger


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## z109 (24 May 2007)

Towger said:


> Cobol... Those were the days.. Still using 74 or upgraded to 85?



Ahem, still using just assembler, haven't quite graduated to the Cobol side of things...


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## aircobra19 (24 May 2007)

yoganmahew said:


> ...Yes, that is the sort of technology I'm working with - at least from the programming point of view. It is also the sort of technology every major (scheduled) airline and financial institution is working with (assembler, cobol...).



Don't I know, we've loads of old Cobol stuff where I am too. We needed to fix one yesterday that a date problem. The original programmer obviously didn't expect the application to be still in use some 27 yrs later. However we are slowly replacing them with new applications which are much more easily mantained and vastly better scope for being developed further. Most other organisations I've been in with similar legacy applications are doing the same. One of the very good reason for this that is the skill pool of people that have these skills is shrinking rapidly.


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## car (24 May 2007)

cobra, any jobs going for a cobol Y2K developer?  Top rates expected.  

To the OP, Id suggest handing out CVs elsewhere and do what most people do and lie.  I interview candidates all the time for roles and its laughable when you question them on their CV as they dont have the skillset to back what theyve said theyve done elsewhere.  However, if you do have the skillset, when you sit down in an interview you'll be able to hold your own.  Everyone blags on their CV.  Everyone.

"So you work with Oracle databases?"
"Yeah, Ive done all that stuff."
"You say youre certified"
"Yeah, whatever, Im your man, love pc's me..."


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## gearoid (24 May 2007)

car said:


> cobra, any jobs going for a cobol Y2K developer?  Top rates expected.
> 
> To the OP, Id suggest handing out CVs elsewhere and do what most people do and lie.  I interview candidates all the time for roles and its laughable when you question them on their CV as they dont have the skillset to back what theyve said theyve done elsewhere.  However, if you do have the skillset, when you sit down in an interview you'll be able to hold your own.  Everyone blags on their CV.  Everyone.
> 
> ...



Frankly I think this is awful advice. I've seen a lot of CVs and I've spotted some absolute howlers of lies. It ruins your reputation if you're caught out. 

One example was where a colleague had worked with someone directly, and when I got their CV they had indicated they were working with another company in a more senior position when actually they were working with my colleague. The CV was binned and there was no chance anyone would ever consider him again. 

In a 200 person company there's every likelihood quite a number of the staff may have worked with you or have some knowledge of you from before.

I know that CVs can often be fluff but it's easier to lie about your role in the Bratislava Electronic Company than BallymagashTech ... Ireland is too small for "fibs" on CVs.

I notice often that people include skills matrices with all the buzz words but often these are not backed up by project knowledge. It is easy to spot who is lying as the previous correspondent says. If it's so easy to spot then why suggest it in the first place.


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## Rover45 (24 May 2007)

Hi Guys, 
First off ...what the hell has my thread started???? 

Cerberos- I don't have an attitude problem I'm just frustrate because im good at something that I want as a career but cant get into to . I do not scorn computer degress in fact I think if you want to a programmer or developer etc it would be a good thing to have dont you think?? 
I completely agree with yogi and I think he was spot on with everything he said. 
I didn't get the tech job in the company where I work because I "don't have hands on experience" ,in my original thread all I was asking was how do I get this hands on experience if no one is willing to give me a chance in tech support. Stepping back and looking at myself etc etc has bugger all to do with anything. 
My CV and cover letter is perfect I even had it checked over by a friend of mine who works as a programmer in Microsoft. Theres not a lie in there as I don't believe in it , It'll only come back to bite you in the ass. 
The techs (well some of them, about 60%) are all trained in web development and programming etc but dont know how to fix a pc when its down ,I've been on to many techs and alot of them really don't know what their talking about (A prime example would is when my wireless broadband wouldnt work and I was told to wipe my hard drive and reinstall windows ....which is the worst advice ever ). I am a self builder ,have been for 5 yrs now, I have two certs (1 which is a worldwide standard...A+) ,that have trained me in the maintance and technical support of PCs . My boss even referred to me as his " technical wizard" yesterday in work . Everyone on my team in work and most on the floor say that im in the wrong dept ..if they can see it then why cant I get the chance to prove myself.


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## z109 (24 May 2007)

Hi Rover, I sympathise, I really do. In the early nineties (er, very early), when I was starting out, there was the 'great graduate shortage' (this was in England) and the company I ended up working for flew people in from Ireland and Italy in addition to it's local recruitment and trained us all up in what they wanted us to do.

Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to happen now. Companies want instant skills when you join, and because they don't really know what those skills are, they tend to go for CV experience in something that sounds like it might be what they want!

So, aside from leaving your current company to go to another as sales with a view to moving to tech support, is there any way you could get a secondment to tech support in the current company? (Sort of a 'get to know the business inside out to sell stuff better' pitch).

Or could you get your boss to change your job description so that it is sales and departmental technical support (so the work you do fixing other peoples' problems locally is recognised on your CV)?


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## aircobra19 (24 May 2007)

If you have the certs, "the perfect CV", are practically doing the job, and everyone thinks you are brilliant. Lack of experience seems very petty. They should back up the talk with some postive action IMO.


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## gearoid (24 May 2007)

Rover45 said:


> The techs (well some of them, about 60%) are all trained in web development and programming etc but dont know how to fix a pc when its down ,I've been on to many techs and alot of them really don't know what their talking about



This is called specialisation. If I have a large company then I find someone who is good at fixing PCs to fix PCs, and I find someone who can use HTML and Flash to design a webpage, and a find someone who knows Oracle and Database Design to develop my database.

Just because someone doesn't know what you do, or can't fix a "blue screen of death", doesn't mean they aren't excellent at what they do. 

I think you may have some misconceptions here. It is the attitude that I know what to do and those uni guys don't that is coming through strongly and that other posters have commented on. I didn't spot that in your earlier posts but I certainly notice it now. I think you need to put it behind you.

Granted some guys with uni degrees don't know how to programme, while some non-graduates make great developers, but I'm afraid HR departments are inherently conservative and will likely go for the graduate.

Best of luck but focus on yourself and not others perceived inadequacies.

Also why not try further certification? Something like RHCE Red Hat Certified Engineer. It may help get you from fixing PCs to administration and a big step up in your career.


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## A_b (25 May 2007)

> I didn't get the tech job in the company where I work because I "don't have hands on experience"


Might be worth talking to the person who interviewed you and see if it is possible to even do one day a week or something there to get hands on experience so then you can get the next position coming up. Generally if you are a good worker they would give you the chance.



> My CV and cover letter is perfect I even had it checked over by a friend of mine who works as a programmer in Microsoft.



Might be worth getting this checked over by a recruitment agency rather than a programming friend. 



> The techs (well some of them, about 60%) are all trained in web development and programming etc but dont know how to fix a pc when its down ,I've been on to many techs and alot of them really don't know what their talking about (A prime example would is when my wireless broadband wouldnt work and I was told to wipe my hard drive and reinstall windows ....which is the worst advice ever ).



Dunno why you are so bothered about this ... its not their job, its not what they trained to do. Just because they can program doesnt mean they should be able to deal with hardware too.



> Everyone on my team in work and most on the floor say that im in the wrong dept ..if they can see it then why cant I get the chance to prove myself.



People lie!! You must be speaking about it alot at work if so many people seem to have an opinion - sometimes its easier to agree with someone.


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## car (25 May 2007)

> Frankly I think this is awful advice. I've seen a lot of CVs and I've spotted some absolute howlers of lies. It ruins your reputation if you're caught out.



theres 2 things going to happen if you "garnish" your CV. You'll be asked about it in the interview, if you can back it up you stand a better chance of getting the job, if you cant then you wont and your rep is ruined.
Obviously you have to be smart about it,  some people arent.


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## HotdogsFolks (25 May 2007)

Rover45, I also sense from your posts that you might have an attitude problem, e.g. I sense you think you're "deadly".

Most employer do not want to hire cocky people. They want employees who'll do what they're told, keep their mouth shut, and won't think they're too good for the place. ESPECIALLY junior tech support. 

I do get the feeling you think you're better than everyone...

I used to work in recruitment. I'd be happy to take a peep at your cover letter and CV. You can copy and paste them into a PM if you like.


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## cerberos (25 May 2007)

"The techs (well some of them, about 60%) are all trained in web development and programming etc but dont know how to fix a pc when its down ,I've been on to many techs and alot of them really don't know what their talking about"

The more I read the more convinced that my initial comment was right. 
Many of my sons friends build their own gaming PCs and know a LOT about building Lego pieces into Boxes and software, Firmware and drivers and that go along with them and they do impress me. But I see them as very capable and knowledgeable hobbyists.

But they are much more MODEST than you.

Perhaps Attitude and a know all approach is your problem.

Whiz Kid - I thought you were in SALES??

C


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## homeowner (25 May 2007)

I do alot of interviewing and to be honest I would pick someone with hands on experience in a comapny doing the job I am hiring for any day over someone who taught themselves at home - all things being equal. Its not because I dont think the other person would be capable but you cant afford to make a mistake and hire the wrong person.  So much time goes into the recruitment process that takes away from my day to day work that I dont want to be back hiring in 3 months after I realise I hired someone who couldnt do the job.  

Unless you are talking about grad positions, most companies will go with the person who has experience - why take a chance on someone?

As for being given the chance in your own company, it is possible that you are too good at what you are doing and they dont want to loose you in that role.


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## cnu (25 May 2007)

Apologies, I havent read everyones comment barring the Original Poster.  OP: in my opinion, software is the one of the few fields where you learn something by practise.  If you wanna be a hardcore programmer, which I believe you can be, all you need to do is just take any [I mean any] software programs that you can lay hands on and re-develop it.  [like Internet Banking app, railway reservation, hotel reservation anything for that matter...just a thought


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## aircobra19 (25 May 2007)

cnu said:


> Apologies, I havent read everyones comment barring the Original Poster.  OP: in my opinion, software is the one of the few fields where you learn something by practise.  If you wanna be a hardcore programmer, which I believe you can be, all you need to do is just take any [I mean any] software programs that you can lay hands on and re-develop it.  [like Internet Banking app, railway reservation, hotel reservation anything for that matter...just a thought



For support?


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