# VRT & Vehicle Siezure



## davrac (18 Oct 2008)

I purchased a 2 year old 4x4 in June of this year, and brought it into Ireland as a commercial, and cleared it for 50 Euro.

Business took a turn for the worst and I decided I would not keep the car, and as there is nothing selling here I would return it to the UK for sale there (better chance of selling it).  as part of that process I put the seats back in with the plan to return the vehicle within a few days.

I got stopped by the Customs, and they seized my vehicle on the spot, brought me to the customs house, cautioned me, questioned me, then told me that I would have to pay the VRT (nearly 25,000 Euro) and a 10% of this value as a fine.

I have done some research into this and I believe the customs officers to be wrong in the seizure of my vehicle and the option only to pay the VRT and penalty.

After the questioning the customs officers told me that I would have to pay the VRT, and that I could not take the vehicle out of the state or convert it back to a commercial which is also in contradiction to their rule book (see link below)

The information that I have found contradicts this, and I should have been offered the 3 options listed below.

· De-Converting the Vehicle, or
· Retaining the vehicle in its converted state, and paying the additional VRT, or
· Removing the vehicle from the state.

Also the seizure i believe also to be wrong as the customs officer(s) should have issued me with a verbal warning prior to seizure, were I then should remove the vehicle from the state or present it to them for inspection.  This was not done.

I now find myself in a position where they are demanding nearly 27000 euro before I can get my vehicle back, but this is not an option for me, as 1. I don’t have the money, 2.  I need to return the vehicle to the UK for sale, and the vehicle in the UK is only worth 25-30k sterling.

I need to get expert legal advice on this matter, but I am having difficulty locating a Solicitor with experience in Customs and VRT regulations/law.


The links below are to the document I located on the revenue website.
http://www.revenue.ie/services/foi/s16_2001/vrt_ins.pdf

Section 6 deals with Enforcement, this is where the rules are outlined.


Can anyone assist?
Regards
Davrac


----------



## NOAH (18 Oct 2008)

you are in deep mire, once you bring a vehicle into the state you have to register it immediately and if you want to use it, tax it and insure it.  When people are given a few days grace that is only a courtesy.June is quite a while back.  Unless I am missing something you dont have a leg to stand on.   You cant run a commercial vehicle then add seats otherwise everyone could do that.

I'm afraid you broke the law.  Customs will keep vehicle for a time and then flog it off.

Apologies if I have missed something.

no--


----------



## Smashbox (20 Oct 2008)

Unfortunatly, Noah is right.

You have 7 days after bringing the vehicle into the country to get the paperwork in order and register it.

By having the car siezed, they will not return it to you as you broke the law and aren't prepared or able to pay the VRT and fine.

They are also not gonna give you the oppertunity to return it to the UK. You must write off the whole sum, and probably be taken to court, or work out getting the money to pay for it.


----------



## Complainer (20 Oct 2008)

davrac said:


> I need to get expert legal advice on this matter, but I am having difficulty locating a Solicitor with experience in Customs and VRT regulations/law.
> 
> 
> The links below are to the document I located on the revenue website.
> ...




When you are in a hole, stop digging. Do you really want to add legal fees to your woes? As a compliant taxpayer, it is great to see Revenue getting on top of such sharp practices. I doubt if you will get much support for your plans round here.


----------



## Scouser (20 Oct 2008)

Smashbox said:


> Unfortunatly, Noah is right.
> 
> You have 7 days after bringing the vehicle into the country to get the paperwork in order and register it.


 
He already cleared it back in June.  Thats harsh enough treatment if you ask me, did you explain all this to the Customs officer?


----------



## Caveat (20 Oct 2008)

Depends exactly what "cleared it for €50" means I suppose.


----------



## NOAH (20 Oct 2008)

I got the impression he was still driving on foreign plates and had converted it to passenger  Apparently if it is commercial the VRT is only €50.00 but as he had made it a passenger the VRT probaly went to 30% OMSP. I dont think we will hear back.

noah


----------



## Mini3277 (21 Oct 2008)

Complainer said:


> When you are in a hole, stop digging. Do you really want to add legal fees to your woes? As a compliant taxpayer, it is great to see Revenue getting on top of such sharp practices. I doubt if you will get much support for your plans round here.


 

Such sharpe practices? You think VRT is a fair tax? Show below, a nice article from Mr. Williams in relation to VRT. 

I think the OP will find plenty of support. 

"_Traipse over to Britain. You find your dream car for, let’s say, £18,000.You bring it back to Ireland. You are then confronted with the first tax - VRT. So already the state is bending the rules.

Resigned, you are then prepared to pay the tax on the euro value of the sterling cost of the car. So the first rule of the Treaty of Rome is broken the minute you get off the boat at Dun Laoghaire, because any tax on any good at the point of entry contravenes the original Treaty of Rome.

But worse is to come. The Revenue then judge that it’s not the cost of the car in Britain that counts for the tax, it is some Orwellian-sounding levy called the ‘‘open market selling price’’. The Revenue, in an approach which protects Irish car dealers, squeeze money out of the beleaguered Irish motorist with another, extra tax.

They calculate the difference between what the car cost in the free, unfettered market of Britain and what it might cost here in the protected, sewn-up kleptocracy that is Ireland and then slap another totally unjustified tax on top of the original totally unjustified tax.

If you want to see how this shameless infringement of EU law works, check out https://www.ros.ie/VRTEnquiryServlet/ showCarCalculator. Rather than enhance competition, our government smothers it. The motorist is being penalised twice to protect Irish car dealers who have being making a fortune in recent years by selling overpriced cars. The state, therefore, is not only breaking the rules of the EU but, more egregiously, is protecting an industry here which is actually doing nothing._


----------



## DavyJones (21 Oct 2008)

It was all over the news a few months back how reputable garages were removing  back seats/seat belts  from 4 x 4's and passing them off as commercial vechiles for paying clients. Once VRT of €50 was paid, it was then back  to garage to have seats/seat belts put back in, hence becoming a private vechile and no longer applicable to the €50 commercial charge. Its a  scam the custom lads have cottoned onto and OP was unlucky to get caught.


----------



## RS2K (21 Oct 2008)

It was still a premeditated and deliberate act to evade tax. Nobody likes VRT, and it's anti competition clearly, but it's the law, and has to be paid like all other taxes due.

I liken scamming to theft.


----------



## z103 (21 Oct 2008)

> It was still a premeditated and deliberate act to evade tax. Nobody likes VRT, and it's anti competition clearly, but it's the law, and has to be paid like all other taxes due.


It isn't apparent to me that the OP was trying to evade tax.  It seems they they were certainly trying to avoid it, but their plan does not appear to have worked.

WRT 'but it's the law' comment - there have been many horrendous laws passed. I believe people should behave less like sheep in this regard.


----------



## RS2K (21 Oct 2008)

leghorn said:


> It isn't apparent to me that the OP was trying to evade tax.  It seems they they were certainly trying to avoid it, but their plan does not appear to have worked.
> 
> WRT 'but it's the law' comment - there have been many horrendous laws passed. I believe people should behave less like sheep in this regard.



He seems to have paid reduced rate VRT on the basis of a commerical vehicle, only to then convert it back again.

Isn't that evasion?

As I said nobody likes VRT. Whilst it's on the statute books however it is the law.


----------



## extopia (21 Oct 2008)

leghorn said:


> I believe people should behave less like sheep in this regard.



I'm all for obeying the spirit of the law as opposed to the letter of the law, but in the case of VRT the spirit and the letter of the law are totally aligned, so not much room there for any morally justifiable civil disobedience.


----------



## Mini3277 (21 Oct 2008)

Vehicles which have been converted to a higher VRT category following registration in the State must be declared to the Commissioners so that:
the register of vehicles can be amended; an amended VRC can be issued;
additional VRT payable can be assessed and collected. The following points should be noted: The registered owner of a converted vehicle is responsible for declaring the prescribed particulars of the converted vehicle to the Commissioners and for the payment of additional VRT due109 (if any);
A person (otherthan an authorised person) who has converted a vehicle must bring that vehicle, within one working day following its date of conversion to a VRO and make a declaration of the said vehicle 110. Where a person fails to comply with this provision an offence is committed.

1.13.1 Declaration Procedure

A declaration of conversion must be made on the appropriate form111 which may be lodged at any VRO.

Where a conversion is carried out by a third party, i.e. by a person other than the owner, e.g. an authorised convertor, but the details are not declared at a VRO by such third party112, the following administrative procedure 113 should be implemented 114: a completed Form VRT 6 should be presented at a VRO prior to delivery of the converted vehicle in question to the owner/declarant by the third party;two copies are to be made of Form VRT 6;at this stage all three documents should be signed and stamped only;
the copies are to be returned to the owner/declarant and the original retained by the VRO; the owner/declarant should be advised that one copy must be given to the convertor before the vehicle can legally be released to him by the convertor 115; the second copy is to be retained by the owner/declarant who should be advised that it must be presented with the converted vehicle at the same VRO within two working days116 when VRT may then be assessed, charged and paid in the normal way.


----------



## davrac (2 Dec 2008)

NOAH said:


> you are in deep mire, once you bring a vehicle into the state you have to register it immediately and if you want to use it, tax it and insure it. When people are given a few days grace that is only a courtesy.June is quite a while back. Unless I am missing something you dont have a leg to stand on. You cant run a commercial vehicle then add seats otherwise everyone could do that.
> 
> I'm afraid you broke the law. Customs will keep vehicle for a time and then flog it off.
> 
> ...


 
as long as they only flog it off for their OMSP, otherwise are they not contridicting themselves


----------



## davrac (2 Dec 2008)

Mini3277 said:


> Vehicles which have been converted to a higher VRT category following registration in the State must be declared to the Commissioners so that:
> the register of vehicles can be amended; an amended VRC can be issued;
> additional VRT payable can be assessed and collected. The following points should be noted: The registered owner of a converted vehicle is responsible for declaring the prescribed particulars of the converted vehicle to the Commissioners and for the payment of additional VRT due109 (if any);
> A person (otherthan an authorised person) who has converted a vehicle must bring that vehicle, within one working day following its date of conversion to a VRO and make a declaration of the said vehicle 110. Where a person fails to comply with this provision an offence is committed.
> ...


 

thanks


----------



## davrac (2 Dec 2008)

extopia said:


> I'm all for obeying the spirit of the law as opposed to the letter of the law, but in the case of VRT the spirit and the letter of the law are totally aligned, so not much room there for any morally justifiable civil disobedience.


 

I sometimes feel that we are now living in a dictatorship, their way or the high way.


----------



## davrac (2 Dec 2008)

RS2K said:


> He seems to have paid reduced rate VRT on the basis of a commerical vehicle, only to then convert it back again.
> 
> Isn't that evasion?
> 
> As I said nobody likes VRT. Whilst it's on the statute books however it is the law.


 

it was to be removed under EU law,Ireland and Portugal,are the only countries imposing it.  but the rish revamped it into a carbon tax so the EU have to revisit it Again.


----------



## davrac (2 Dec 2008)

DavyJones said:


> It was all over the news a few months back how reputable garages were removing back seats/seat belts from 4 x 4's and passing them off as commercial vechiles for paying clients. Once VRT of €50 was paid, it was then back to garage to have seats/seat belts put back in, hence becoming a private vechile and no longer applicable to the €50 commercial charge. Its a scam the custom lads have cottoned onto and OP was unlucky to get caught.


 

very helpful


----------



## davrac (2 Dec 2008)

Complainer said:


> When you are in a hole, stop digging. Do you really want to add legal fees to your woes? As a compliant taxpayer, it is great to see Revenue getting on top of such sharp practices. I doubt if you will get much support for your plans round here.


 
thanks for that good luck mate


----------



## davrac (2 Dec 2008)

xabi said:


> He already cleared it back in June. Thats harsh enough treatment if you ask me, did you explain all this to the Customs officer?


 

I explained the whole situation, on deaf ears i fear.


----------



## PaddyBloggit (2 Dec 2008)

You cleared it but you didn't register it. Were you still running it on English plates?


----------



## davrac (2 Dec 2008)

Caveat said:


> Depends exactly what "cleared it for €50" means I suppose.


 
€50.00 is commercial clearance, i put the seats back in to sell it back into the North of Ireland,got caught in the period between the conversion done and trip to the North


----------



## putsch (2 Dec 2008)

As a compliant taxpayer - PAYE, car tax, buying my food locally etc I find it hard to stomach people who don't make a connection between earning at high Irish rates (highest minimum wage in Europe), paying relatively low Irish personal tax and social insurance and then seek to avoid or evade local taxes such as VRT.


----------



## davrac (2 Dec 2008)

RS2K said:


> It was still a premeditated and deliberate act to evade tax. Nobody likes VRT, and it's anti competition clearly, but it's the law, and has to be paid like all other taxes due.
> 
> I liken scamming to theft.


 

its not theft or scamming, i needed to sell the vehicle, and the market in the North is better than here for high end vehicles,i was unfortunate not to have removed the vehicle ASAP.


----------



## DavyJones (2 Dec 2008)

davrac said:


> its not theft or scamming, i needed to sell the vehicle, and the market in the North is better than here for high end vehicles,i was unfortunate not to have removed the vehicle ASAP.



But you cleared it as a commercial vehicle? and when you were pulled over you were in a non commercial vehicle? These are the same 4 x 4?

Were you aware that this is a common scam? or do you belive you did nothing wrong?


----------



## Caveat (2 Dec 2008)

PaddyBloggit said:


> You cleared it but you didn't register it. Were you still running it on English plates?


 
Very relevant I'd say?


----------



## davrac (2 Dec 2008)

DavyJones said:


> It was all over the news a few months back how reputable garages were removing back seats/seat belts from 4 x 4's and passing them off as commercial vechiles for paying clients. Once VRT of €50 was paid, it was then back to garage to have seats/seat belts put back in, hence becoming a private vechile and no longer applicable to the €50 commercial charge. Its a scam the custom lads have cottoned onto and OP was unlucky to get caught.


 
My conversion back to a passanger was only so i could sell the vehicle back into the North, I had no plans to keep it in the state, I was unfortunate to be stopped and have the vehicle siezed, but i think the revenue are forcing me into paying the VRT, and not not offering me the correct options.


----------



## davrac (2 Dec 2008)

Caveat said:


> Very relevant I'd say?


 

car was cleared as a commercial, and my financial situation forced me to sell the vehicle, and my only viable cost effective option was sell it back into the north, but there is no market for a commercial 4x4 in the north, therefore the seats had to go back in, and i was stopped by customs before i had a chance to bring the vehicle to the north.  no other reason for the conversion.  just unfortunate.


----------



## PaddyBloggit (2 Dec 2008)

It's a pity you didn't place the seats in the back of the vehicle, throw a cover over them etc. until you hit the UK. At least you could have argued that you were only transporting them.

I suspect that the reason they seized the vehicle is because you failed to re-register it as an Irish vehicle. You left the time lapse so they seized it.


----------



## davrac (2 Dec 2008)

DavyJones said:


> But you cleared it as a commercial vehicle? and when you were pulled over you were in a non commercial vehicle? These are the same 4 x 4?
> 
> Were you aware that this is a common scam? or do you belive you did nothing wrong?


 

i was aware of the previous cases where people had reconverted their vehicles, but my intention was not the same,my plan was get the seats back in and bring the vehicle back to the north, but I was unfortunate to be stopped before i got the vehicle out of the state.  simple.


----------



## davrac (2 Dec 2008)

PaddyBloggit said:


> It's a pity you didn't place the seats in the back of the vehicle, throw a cover over them etc. until you hit the UK. At least you could have argued that you were only transporting them.
> 
> I suspect that the reason they seized the vehicle is because you failed to re-register it as an Irish vehicle. You left the time lapse so they seized it.


 

vehicle was on Irish plates, but as a commercial, but I need to seel the vehicle back into the north, and there is no market for a comm 4x4, so the seats where put back in, but i got stopped by customs before i got the vehicle out of the state.


----------



## PaddyBloggit (2 Dec 2008)

I'm sorry .... you just seem to have been unlucky to have been stopped.


----------



## tosullivan (2 Dec 2008)

Mini3277 said:


> Such sharpe practices? You think VRT is a fair tax? Show below, a nice article from Mr. Williams in relation to VRT.
> 
> I think the OP will find plenty of support.
> 
> ...


 so if the state is breaking the rules, why isn't is being stopped?  I know its the million dollar question, but surely its black & white...


----------



## tosullivan (2 Dec 2008)

davrac said:


> i was aware of the previous cases where people had reconverted their vehicles, but my intention was not the same,my plan was get the seats back in and bring the vehicle back to the north, but I was unfortunate to be stopped before i got the vehicle out of the state. simple.


 thats a kick in the teeth....will they not let you take the seats out and reclaim the vehicle?


----------



## RS2K (3 Dec 2008)

davrac said:


> its not theft or scamming, i needed to sell the vehicle, and the market in the North is better than here for high end vehicles,i was unfortunate not to have removed the vehicle ASAP.



Look, from the Customs point of view they caught you in a jeep, registered as a commercial, and reconverted to passenger use.

You say you merely intended to sell it on in the North after reconversion, but that's impossible to prove. 

 It may have been pure bad luck. Had you done the reconversion a day before taking it up north to sell you have my sympathy. Had it been done weeks or months beforehand you were chancing your arm.

p.s. Where did you get the interior - seats, door cards etc. btw?


----------



## mathepac (3 Dec 2008)

RS2K said:


> ...
> p.s. Where did you get the interior - seats, door cards etc. btw?



I thought the "converters" were obliged to destroy them as part of the conversion process. I obviously thought wrong.


----------



## DavyJones (3 Dec 2008)

davrac, did you buy if converted or did you get it converted?


----------

