# Can wine in a screw topped bottle be "corked"?



## anastasiablu (9 Jul 2010)

Been in a restaurant in Dublin and Uk where wine was just poured without offer to taste. Can it be corked/gone off??


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## jhegarty (9 Jul 2010)

Not corked , because that's caused by the wood in the cork.

But could be "gone off" the other reasons.


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## Padraigb (9 Jul 2010)

Not literally corked, but it can certainly be off -- for example, if the bottle was not sterile when it was filled.

You should always be offered the opportunity to taste the wine.


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## huskerdu (10 Jul 2010)

Corked means that the cork was flawed and air got in.
It is much rarer for this to happen with screw tops but it must happen occasionally that the top is flawed in some way and lets air in. 

Tasting the wine is irrelevent, if a wine is gone off, you can send it back, whether you tasted it or not. Corked wine can be OK for the first sip and then quickly oxidise and taste foul 10 minutes later.


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## rustbucket (10 Jul 2010)

agree with above. Wine cant be 'corked' without a cork. It can however be off as people above said.

That aside, it is generally good manners to be offered the opportunity to taste the wine, especially if you bought a bottle. However if you bought only a glass most places do not give you a taste (unless it is a fresh bottle just opened) as it is usually house wine and they will have a bottle open already that someone else would have had a glass from


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## Leo (12 Jul 2010)

huskerdu said:


> Corked means that the cork was flawed and air got in.


 
The term corked wine refers to wine which has been affected by the presence of the chemical TCA which is produced by a fungus which infects cork. It's not due to exposure to air. You can tell by the musty or mouldy smell, to taste it will lack fruit and can be bitter depending on the degree of taint. An oxidised wine will rendner the taste of a wine fruitless, but will not bring the fungal smell. 

Exposure to TCA can also occur in the barrel, so can affect wines closed by means other than cork. This is much rarer though. 

Most likely scenario here would be poor storage conditions. Wine ideally should be stored at a constant cool temperature and be protected from vibrations and shocks as well as sunlight. Maybe you could suggest the restaurant invest in a fine EuroCave system?  
Leo


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## bren1916 (12 Jul 2010)

Just as a caveat:

Wine would always be poured straight out to glass in any worthwhile 5 star restaurant.They would never allow a corked wine near a table as it would automatically have been 'tasted' by a resident taster upon opening..


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## Padraigb (12 Jul 2010)

Maybe I don't eat in the very finest restaurants (although I have on occasion paid prices that suggested high standards): I have never had a _sommelier _taste the wine for me. On occasion, I have seem a _sommelier_ sniff the cork.


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## jasonr (12 Jul 2010)

While we are on the subject of wine can anyone tell me how long a screwtop bottle of wine last when opened and refridgerated. thanks.


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## Yeager (12 Jul 2010)

jasonr said:


> While we are on the subject of wine can anyone tell me how long a screwtop bottle of wine last when opened and refridgerated. thanks.


 
About 2 hours in my house.


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## Welfarite (12 Jul 2010)

Yeager said:


> About 2 hours in my house.




I think I read somewhere that opened wine should be refrigerated (including red) and drunk within 3 days?


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## Sunny (12 Jul 2010)

bren1916 said:


> Just as a caveat:
> 
> Wine would always be poured straight out to glass in any worthwhile 5 star restaurant.They would never allow a corked wine near a table as it would automatically have been 'tasted' by a resident taster upon opening..


 
That's not true. All sommeliers should allow the customer to taste the wine (and provide the cork for inspection but I think that is going too far). I would also be insulted if the sommlier turned up at my table with an expensive bottle of wine already opened and he just poured it straight out or if he had tasted it.

I have seen people who were not sure if a wine was corked or not ask the sommerlier for their opinion. That's what they are there for. 

I think I have a strong pallet because I think I have only ever had one bottle of corked wine. Even then, I didn't think it was that bad until the rest of the table nearly puked! It's why I stick to beer!


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## Purple (12 Jul 2010)

Sunny said:


> That's not true. All sommeliers should allow the customer to taste the wine (and provide the cork for inspection but I think that is going too far). I would also be insulted if the sommlier turned up at my table with an expensive bottle of wine already opened and he just poured it straight out or if he had tasted it.
> 
> I have seen people who were not sure if a wine was corked or not ask the sommerlier for their opinion. That's what they are there for.


 Agreed.




Sunny said:


> I think I have a strong pallet because I think I have only ever had one bottle of corked wine. Even then, I didn't think it was that bad until the rest of the table nearly puked! It's why I stick to beer!



It is very rare to find a corked bottle. Not liking a wine is no reason to send it back, there has to be something actually wrong with it.


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## Staples (12 Jul 2010)

Padraigb said:


> Maybe I don't eat in the very finest restaurants (although I have on occasion paid prices that suggested high standards): I have never had a _sommelier _taste the wine for me. On occasion, I have seem a _sommelier_ sniff the cork.


 

Just out of curiosity, is it necessary to italicise the word "sommelier" - sorry_... "sommelier".  _


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## Padraigb (12 Jul 2010)

I prefer to italicise it because I consider it to be a French word that we use in English, and I go with the convention that we italicise foreign words. I don't think _sommelier _has received its naturalisation papers yet.

There is possibly room for argument about it, but be warned: I have a glass of wine (_un verre de vin_) beside the keyboard (_clavier_), and that might make me argumentative.


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## Yeager (12 Jul 2010)

What is the story with payment if you do send it back? Is it on the restaurant or do you have to pay anything? I have a few people about this in the past and both have given me different answers.


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## Padraigb (12 Jul 2010)

You don't pay for wine that you reject because there is something wrong with it.


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## bren1916 (13 Jul 2010)

Originally Posted by *Sunny* http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?p=1060654#post1060654 
_That's not true. All sommeliers should allow the customer to taste the wine _

_So you have been dining in all of the finest restaurants around the world then to make such a statement or is it in your opinion?_


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## Sunny (13 Jul 2010)

bren1916 said:


> Originally Posted by *Sunny* http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?p=1060654#post1060654
> _That's not true. All sommeliers should allow the customer to taste the wine _
> 
> _So you have been dining in all of the finest restaurants around the world then to make such a statement or is it in your opinion?_


 
All of them? No. Most of them? No. Alot of them? Yes. One of the perks of my industry is that client entertainment plays a large part. Or used to until the financial crisis hit. 

And I have never seen a sommelier or any waiter taste wine before giving it to a customer. That's just rude.

It's not just my opinion. Show me where one of the duties of the sommilier is to taste the wine before serving it to the customer. What restaurant were you in that did that? I can list plenty that didn't.


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## Shawady (13 Jul 2010)

I was in Chapter One a couple of weeks ago and the  sommelier did not taste the wine. He recommended a particular one alright but left the tasting to the customer.


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## bren1916 (13 Jul 2010)

http://www.vinography.com/archives/2010/07/let_sommeliers_do_their_jobs.html

Perhaps he refers to you Sunny in paragraph 6....


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## Sunny (13 Jul 2010)

bren1916 said:


> http://www.vinography.com/archives/2010/07/let_sommeliers_do_their_jobs.html
> 
> Perhaps he refers to you Sunny in paragraph 6....


 
The guy isn't even a sommelier. The anology with the chef tasting the sauce is stupid. I would expect the winemaker to taste the wine as he makes it. I wouldn't expect the chef to come out to the table and stick his fork into my sauce to see if still tastes ok on the plate. I have never seen it and I wouldn't like it. The only time I have seen sommeliers taste wine is when customers have asked if it is corked.

Like I say, have you ever seen it?


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## NorfBank (13 Jul 2010)

Saw it once from afar, it did strike me as odd though, somm took a sip then brought the wine over to the table and then offered a taste to one of the diners. Maybe the customer asked the somm to check it first?

Seems to be common enough in Europe according to this:

_“Few issues of wine etiquette seem to cause as much consternation as  the increasingly common practice of a sommelier taking a small sip of  wine, usually unbidden, to test for soundness. Diners often are  surprised to learn that their bottle has in effect been shared with the  restaurant, even if it’s just the smallest amount.”_

http://www.1winedude.com/index.php/...p-should-sommeliers-taste-your-wine-purchase/


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## Sunny (13 Jul 2010)

I would have no problem with a sommelier asking if we would like him to taste the wine first but I would be annoyed if they tasted it without asking. They shouldn't even be opening the bottle away from the table. 

Maybe it has been going on and I haven't noticed.


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## bren1916 (13 Jul 2010)

Sunny said:


> The anology with the chef tasting the sauce is stupid.  I wouldn't expect the chef to come out to the table and stick his fork into my sauce to see if still tastes ok on the plate.
> Like I say, have you ever seen it?


 
Yours is indeed a much more appropriate analogy..and yes I have seen it.

"I would expect the winemaker to taste the wine as he makes it".

The wine does not become 'corked' until after the bottle is sealed..


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## Sunny (13 Jul 2010)

bren1916 said:


> Yours is indeed a much more appropriate analogy..and yes I have seen it.
> 
> "I would expect the winemaker to taste the wine as he makes it".
> 
> The wine does not become 'corked' until after the bottle is sealed..


 
Really?

A chef puts the food on the plate. He doesn't then come out to the table and sticks his fork in to make sure it is still hot by the time it gets to me. Or get the waiter to test the food to see how it tastes before I start eating

I am genuinely curious where you saw it. A colleague saw it once in a restaurant in Milan but was asked by the sommelier if she wanted him to taste it and she was also given a taste. 

I think the idea is interesting but I like I say, I have never seen a bottle of wine opened away from the table and then just poured straight into everyones glasses without the customer getting a taste.


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## Shawady (13 Jul 2010)

Sunny said:


> A chef puts the food on the plate. He doesn't then come out to the table and sticks his fork in to make sure it is still hot by the time it gets to me. Or get the waiter to test the food to see how it tastes before I start eating


 
I was in a nice restuarant in Dublin earlier in the year. There was no salt and pepper on any of the tables. I assumed the chef was confident that his food was perfectly seasoned so intentially did not have them  out.
I was then in Chapter One a few weeks ago and there was salt and pepper on the tables.
I was wondering if this is the norm in high end restaurants.


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## Sunny (13 Jul 2010)

Shawady said:


> I was in a nice restuarant in Dublin earlier in the year. There was no salt and pepper on any of the tables. I assumed the chef was confident that his food was perfectly seasoned so intentially did not have them out.
> I was then in Chapter One a few weeks ago and there was salt and pepper on the tables.
> I was wondering if this is the norm in high end restaurants.


 
I have seen it both ways. 

Just don't order chips. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thornton's_Restaurant


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## RIAD_BSC (13 Jul 2010)

bren1916 said:


> Just as a caveat:
> 
> Wine would always be poured straight out to glass in any worthwhile 5 star restaurant.They would never allow a corked wine near a table as it would automatically have been 'tasted' by a resident taster upon opening..


 

Just for what it is worth, I trained as a sommelier, although I haven't worked as one in almost 7 years. I worked in both the US and in Ireland. Bren1916's comment above isn't really accurate.

In Ireland, I would never, ever have opened and tasted a wine away from the table unless I was sure the customer wanted me to. If a wine is corked, you won't need to taste it - you'll be able to tell the moment you pull the cork out of the bottle.

If it is otherwise tainted, then that will only be ascertained from tasting, but I wouldn't do this unless I had cleared it with the customer.

If it was a high-risk, expensive wine, like a particularly old Bordeaux or Burgundy, then I would offer to taste it for them, just to be sure. If they agreed, I would do it at the table in front of the customer and I would not use a spitoon - I would swallow it.

Sometimes, I would pour a tiny, tiny sip of the wine into an extra glass (sometimes without asking) and inspect it visually (colour tinges around the edges etc...), but again, always in front of the customer.

If the customer was known to me and liked me to taste their wines, or if the table was ordering a second or third bottle of one they had previously tatsed, then I might taste without asking. It might depend on how much trust they were putting in me. But again, everything would done at the table in front of the customer. A decent sommelier would never open or decant a wine away from the table. They shouldn't taste away either, in my opinion.

If a customer complained a wine was corked, then I would automatically taste it. If they believed it was corked or tainted, and I could clearly tell that it wasn't, then you are in an awkward spot. You make a judgement call - if it is a €40 bottle, then you just take the hit and tell the customer that you are not certain there is anything wrong with it, but you will happily replace it anyway. If it is a €500 vintage Margaux, then you must stand your ground. But most people who drink €500 Margaux know their wines, so there is usually no problem.

In some top restaurants in the US, the sommeliers might taste the wines without asking - I have seen it done, particularly in one restaurant in Philly I worked in - but I abhor the practice. I would not have said it was standard practice for all sommeliers.

Not giving cutomers the choice and sipping their wine without their permission creates an overbearing air of exclusivity and authority that I presonally am not comfortable with. Yes, customers pay for a sommelier's knowledge, but not their ego.


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## Padraigb (13 Jul 2010)

RIAD_BSC said:


> ... Yes, customers pay for a sommelier's knowledge, but not their ego.



Beautifully put!


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## Purple (13 Jul 2010)

padraigb said:


> beautifully put!



+1


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## anastasiablu (14 Jul 2010)

*Riad bsc- my original question*

What are the chances that a screw topped bottle of wine would have gone off, > or< a bottle with a cork??


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## RIAD_BSC (16 Jul 2010)

anastasiablu said:


> What are the chances that a screw topped bottle of wine would have gone off, > or< a bottle with a cork??


 

There are estimates that anywhere up to 10% of wines with corks could be corked or otherwise tainted (to varying degrees).... screw caps obviously don't get corked... but can still get tainted or oxidised.


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## Padraigb (16 Jul 2010)

There must be something wrong with my palate. I don't find issues with anything like 10% of the bottles I open: more like 1%, perhaps a little over, but certainly less than 2%.


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## Leo (16 Jul 2010)

Padraigb said:


> There must be something wrong with my palate. I don't find issues with anything like 10% of the bottles I open: more like 1%, perhaps a little over, but certainly less than 2%.


 
There doesn't seem to be any authorative figures out there, but most seem to be in or around the 3-8%, 10% would be the max I've seen. 

But there are degrees of taint, and just because TCAs are present doesn't mean you'll notice. Some people are also more sensitive to it.


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