# in bother with my PIA!



## wrecked (24 Jul 2018)

3 years ago i entered into a PIA in blind panic. i felt under enormous pressure, my ex having left me to deal with everything including 3 kids,had just been diagnosed with cancer and was in a mess.i took zero advice stupidly i signed up to it and everything was grand until recently.
my payments are now supposed to be 918 a month. i earn 3300, rent is 750 (due to go up to 900). i send my daughter 300 per month to help with uni and yes she does work but as shes a student nurse placements often prevent her working many hours.after bills i'm left with just over 220 per week for me and my 16 year old.
while it all looks ok on paper the reality is very different, i travel to my oncology appts which cost 30 -40 a time, i avoid the gp because its a waste of money, car tax, tyres, daughters dentist all had to be paid recently.
i pay every 2 weeks , 200 euro, to the PIA and have assured them i will continue to do this, i am really trying but they are insisting on 918, indicating i could loose the family home if i go bankrupt. the family home was lost 3 years ago!!! i could have went to the uk and done my year but chose to stay and face the music.my ex is in the uk and to my knowledge no one has looked for him.
i dont know how long i'll be well for, every day with my children, especially the youngest is precious but this stress is causing me so much anxiety.i would really like if someone could help me out.
i suppose my questions are;
does the fact that i am making an effort to pay carry any weight?it may not be what they are asking for but i'm not refusing to pay.
should i cut my losses and go bankrupt?
should i head over the water?
thank you everyone for reading this and bearing with me.


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## Sunny (24 Jul 2018)

wrecked said:


> 3 years ago i entered into a PIA in blind panic. i felt under enormous pressure, my ex having left me to deal with everything including 3 kids,had just been diagnosed with cancer and was in a mess.i took zero advice stupidly i signed up to it and everything was grand until recently.
> my payments are now supposed to be 918 a month. i earn 3300, rent is 750 (due to go up to 900). i send my daughter 300 per month to help with uni and yes she does work but as shes a student nurse placements often prevent her working many hours.after bills i'm left with just over 220 per week for me and my 16 year old.
> while it all looks ok on paper the reality is very different, i travel to my oncology appts which cost 30 -40 a time, i avoid the gp because its a waste of money, car tax, tyres, daughters dentist all had to be paid recently.
> i pay every 2 weeks , 200 euro, to the PIA and have assured them i will continue to do this, i am really trying but they are insisting on 918, indicating i could loose the family home if i go bankrupt. the family home was lost 3 years ago!!! i could have went to the uk and done my year but chose to stay and face the music.my ex is in the uk and to my knowledge no one has looked for him.
> ...



You are renting so what is the situation with the family home? You say it is 'gone'?? How much do you owe? My advice for a start is put your health over whatever agreement you reached with the PIA. If you can't afford the extra, don't pay it if it means extra stress and anxiety until you can get proper advice.


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## Brendan Burgess (24 Jul 2018)

Hi Wrecked

Agree with Sunny's suggestion: put your health above everything else. 

How long is left in the PIA?

What would you lose if the PIA failed?  Do you or do you not have the family home? If you have it , how much is it worth and how much is left on the mortgage? Did you get a debt writedown as part of the PIA? 

Brendan


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## zxcvbnm (24 Jul 2018)

I think you definitely need expert advice.

BUT - no need to 'go over the water'. (I'm assuming you mean go to UK to go Bankrupt?) ... as bankruptcy laws in Ireland are now the same as UK - so the day of Irish people going to UK to go bankrupt is over. If you want to go bankrupt you can do it here.

Your situation has clearly changed - and any medical bills etc should all be untouchable - even in Bankruptcy as these would be considered exceptional circumstances. 

I really think you need advice from a professional. This cant go on nor should it.

EDIT: And I see sunnys suggestion only now whereby if you cannot afford professional advice then just stop paying the PIA altogether until you have saved enough. I really think you need advice so someone can get you set up the best way possible so as to get your position reviewed.

Ultimately your options to my knowledge are:
- Bankruptcy
- A lump sum DSA if you have a 3rd party who could help out
- Adjustment of current PIA

But assistance from a professional may enable you to get yourself set up in advance the best way to make one of the above solutions as easy as possible


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## wrecked (24 Jul 2018)

thank you all.
i had to leave the family home for safety reasons, it eventually got taken back by the bank 3 years ago. we had several offers to buy it but as the banks wouldnt engage lost the sales. someone actually aproached me recently about it but its no longer mine anyway.theres about 148k outstanding.
i would loose nothing if i went bankrupt, i've nothing to loose although i think all that money i've paid into PIA would be gone. i'm not sure.i started the PIA in may 2015
i'm not saying i wont pay , its my debt and i need to take responsibility but feel they are pushing me to live on fresh air!!!
who should i get for advice?
i'm so stupid when it comes to stuff like this.
thanks again.


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## wrecked (24 Jul 2018)

i got this in an email today from my PIA after i had sent an email saying i will always continue to pay,not as much as they are asking for ,  as long as i am working.
_I certainly cannot tell them that you will continue and make payments to he best of your ability.  A monthly payment must be proposed and evidenced - this will allow us to calculate the amount to be repaid to and written off by creditors which is what they will be voting on. 

Should the required information not be available I will be legally bound to terminate the PIA and should you or your creditors petition for your bankruptcy I would advise that your affordability will be assessed in the same manner as in the PIA and you will have payment to make for 3 years.  In addition your property will become an asset of the bankruptcy and should, by the third year of bankruptcy, there be any equity in the property this will be at risk also._


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## Jim Stafford (24 Jul 2018)

You should ask your PIP to do a Variation.

Read your PIA proposal again;  The "standard" PIA allows Variations to be implemented if there is a change in circumstances.  Incorporating a Variation would involve a new PIA proposal which would need to be voted upon by the creditors at a specially convened creditors meeting.


Jim Stafford


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## Sunny (24 Jul 2018)

wrecked said:


> i got this in an email today from my PIA after i had sent an email saying i will always continue to pay,not as much as they are asking for ,  as long as i am working.
> _I certainly cannot tell them that you will continue and make payments to he best of your ability.  A monthly payment must be proposed and evidenced - this will allow us to calculate the amount to be repaid to and written off by creditors which is what they will be voting on.
> 
> Should the required information not be available I will be legally bound to terminate the PIA and should you or your creditors petition for your bankruptcy I would advise that your affordability will be assessed in the same manner as in the PIA and you will have payment to make for 3 years.  In addition your property will become an asset of the bankruptcy and should, by the third year of bankruptcy, there be any equity in the property this will be at risk also._



That doesn't make any sense. The bank have taken the property so I am presuming your remaining debts are all unsecured. So what are they going to do?

Request a variation to what you are paying at the moment and you know you can afford. Without knowing the full situation, if that is not satisfactory to them considering your health issues, then so be it. Worry about your yourself and your kids. Don't put yourself under any extra stress by paying more.


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## zxcvbnm (24 Jul 2018)

Hi OP.

As Sunny says, something isn't clear here. Do you or do you not own or have any legal hold on the property?
Clearly you PIP thinks you do - and someone approached you recently about buying it? To my knowledge it is rare that a bank actually repossesses a family home from someone.

The reason I ask is it is something that needs to be considered if you decide on bankruptcy.
For now Ill assume you do not.

Yu really need to make an initial appointment with a debt solution solicitor/advisor.

But for now, based on my limited knowledge, the way it works is this.

IN a PIA you submit your living expenses - and anything you earn above what is determined as Reasonable Living Expenses (RLE) is given over for the duration a PIA.
There is a link to a basic calculator here https://backontrack.ie/rle-calculator/.

Based on the info you gave the calculator states that you RLE is around EUR 2700 - however that is before you include childcare costs and any special expenses (your medical expenses would qualify here)
So lets say they are an additional 300 a month - then anything you earn above 3000 (using this figure for illustration purposes) is handed over for the duration of the PIA.
Also I note that you say you don't go to GP as its a waster of money- but if you want to bridge the gap between income and RLE then having legitimate GP expenses will help.

The same occurs in Bankruptcy - i.e. if you earn above 3000 then this is all given away for 3 years (although you only have the status of Bankrupt for 12 months). But if you earn below the RLE in Bankruptcy then it only lasts for 12 months and then you're in the clear.

SO my advice is if you can reduce your working hours to earn below your RLE (whatever that may be), then you have no surplus to give. That way you are unable to pay anything over.

Your options then would be
- Go back to creditors and offer a lump sum one off payment from a 3rd party if possible (Note it MUST be from a 3rd party rather than any of your ow personal savings - money that would not be available to your creditors otherwise). You'd probably need in the region of 5-10k at a guess. You could then go back fulltime working again once it is accepted. The carrot for the creditors here is that if they reject it then you go bankrupt where they receive nothing at all.
- If they reject that or if you do not have a 3rd party to offer on your behalf then bankruptcy is an option. It will only last 12 months as long as your earnings remain below the RLE for the entirety of the 12 months - and then your free of all debts. In effect it is no different to your PIA now except that it is all over in just 12 months.
However - if your earnings are above the RLE then you're in the same situation your in now in that you will have to pay over the surplus for 3 years. So they key for bankruptcy is you really need your earnings below RLE for it to make any sense. Keep

So in a nutshell -
1) if possible, try to work part time to get your earnings below the RLE and approach creditors via a professional doing either a lump sum DSA OR else bankruptcy.
2) And if you cant get your earnings below RLE, then if your circumstances have changed for the worse financially since you first agree the PIA then get onto your PIP to approach your creditors looking for a reduction given that you no longer have the cash you had when it was initially agreed. Keep in mind the greater your medical expenses you have in advance of the meeting the less you will have to give over each month to creditors.

BUt to repeat - you have to meet a pro. There are strategic legal things you can do to position yourself in advance of going back in front of creditors to result in the most favourable outcome for yourslf. They will assist with this.

EDIT - If you do own the property, I note your PIP mentioned that if there is equity on your house by the end of the 3rd year of bankruptcy, then that may be at risk.
He is incorrect there in that Bankruptcy only lasts 1 year - not 3. Although a payment order can last for 3 years - but the equity of your house is not impacted in an IPO. An IPO refers to your salary only. You can win the lotto during an IPO (assuming 12 months of BR has completed) and no one can touch it.


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## TLO (24 Jul 2018)

Hi Wrecked

Wow, you have have had a very rough ride over the past few years.  And the other posters, like Sunny above, are correct.  You need to "worry about yourself and your kids".

But you are trying your best to sort everything out and here's the thing.  A PIA is normally used as an alternative to bankruptcy, and to keep the family home, which is already lost.  So here is the first question:

Is the €148,000 owed to the bank, or the shortfall once the bank sell the family home, included in the PIA?  In other words, at the end of the PIA will you still owe the €148,000 (or shortfall) or will it have been written off?

And the second question is just to clarify whether your monthly earnings of €3,300 are before tax or after tax.  Another way of asking is, how much does your employer put into your bank account every month (or every two weeks)?  We're just trying to estimate if you would have to make a regular payment to the Official Assignee in a bankruptcy scenario. (I see zxcvbnm is on the same track, focusing on Reasonable Living Expenses).

Best wishes


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## Bronte (25 Jul 2018)

I think you are not thinking straight due to the stress.  You are clearly financially stressed.  But you don't have any assets.  So what can they do to you if you stop paying and instead pay for the doctor etc.  You're entitled to have money to pay for a doctors, totally legitimate.  Can't believe you're dealing with cancer and trying to cut corners which is not going to be good for your health.

How about a trip to see someone in Mabs, to get a different perspective and they are free.

Also are you not entitled to a medical card if you have something very costly like Cancer.

Best of luck.


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## wrecked (26 Jul 2018)

thank you all so much for taking the time to give such good replies.
i get paid 1556 after tax every 2 weeks. according to the calculator suggested by zxcvbnm it should leave me with a surplus of 286 to give the PIA. thats unreal!!!!!!!
the house is gone back to the bank, i signed a form a couple of years ago. i've asked about the amount outstanding if it was sold but have been told i owe 148k and that at the end of the PIA whatever is left will be written off.
i have asked for a variation meeting to consider university costs for my middle daughter of 350 per month. the PIP charges me handsomely for this , adding onto the costs.
as bronte has said , i do'nt have any assets but i feel unde pressure from them. i know for sure though i wo'nt b paying 900 odd a monh.


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## zxcvbnm (26 Jul 2018)

wrecked said:


> thank you all so much for taking the time to give such good replies.
> i get paid 1556 after tax every 2 weeks. according to the calculator suggested by zxcvbnm it should leave me with a surplus of 286 to give the PIA. thats unreal!!!!!!!
> the house is gone back to the bank, i signed a form a couple of years ago. i've asked about the amount outstanding if it was sold but have been told i owe 148k and that at the end of the PIA whatever is left will be written off.
> i have asked for a variation meeting to consider university costs for my middle daughter of 350 per month. the PIP charges me handsomely for this , adding onto the costs.
> as bronte has said , i do'nt have any assets but i feel unde pressure from them. i know for sure though i wo'nt b paying 900 odd a monh.



Also consider that bankruptcy may be better for you also. That's why it may be worthwhile to consult an expert to assess all your options.. Or as Bronte said, MABS should provide this for free.Your PIP will only be able to assist assuming up maintain the PIA as that is his role in all of this. (Although if he is a nice guy he may gibe you broad advice)You may well be debt free in 12 months via bankruptcy. 

I suspect the 350 you give to your daughter in university wont be an allowable expense though. But that's just a guess by me.


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## TLO (26 Jul 2018)

Hi Wrecked

Exactly, the PIA should only be getting 286 per month.  918 is way too much.  No wonder the creditors voted for it. 

If you go bankrupt it would appear that you will have to pay 286 a month for 3 years.  On the other hand, the PIA probably has 2 years to run, but 918 per month isn't sustainable.

You need professional advice, from somebody other than your PIP, to help you decide what to do next.  As Bronte said above, MABS is free.  Another possibility is the Irish Mortgage Holders Association which is also free, and they will help you with the paperwork if you do decide to go bankrupt.

So let's do some quick calculations.

PIA:               918 a month for 24 months is €22,032
Bankruptcy:    286 a month for 36 months is €10,296

Bankruptcy would appear to leave you better off.  Unless you have other assets that would be at risk, like a really nice car, lump sum around the corner etc.

Jim Stafford did suggest a variation meeting.  Another possibility again would be to tell your PIP that all you have to give the PIA is 286 per month, which based on the ISI's RLE calculator, and that s/he either gets it over the line with the creditors or "all bets are off".


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## zxcvbnm (26 Jul 2018)

TLO is correct. 

But the very best outcome s if you can get your RLE below the threshold, then go bankrupt. That way it is all over in 12 months. 

2 ways of doing this - reduce your take home pay - or increase your allowable expense (or a mixture of both)

Keep in mind medical expenses are allowable expenses. So if you have significant medical expenses over the next couple of months - then approach your creditors - ,this may well get you beneath the RLE. 

Te bottim line is there is no way your current predicament should continue. You just need to meet up with someone to advise you.


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## Bronte (27 Jul 2018)

wrecked said:


> i have asked for a variation meeting ............... the PIP charges me handsomely for this , adding onto the costs.



How much does this cost? And how much has the PIP cost you so far.

Could someone tell me what would happen to wrecked if she does nothing and just pays the €286 you've all judged she can pay.  Which of course she can't pay as she's foregoing attending a doctor for.  Surely her PIP should have sorted and explained all this to her?


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## Sunny (27 Jul 2018)

Bronte said:


> How much does this cost? And how much has the PIP cost you so far.
> 
> Could someone tell me what would happen to wrecked if she does nothing and just pays the €286 you've all judged she can pay.  Which of course she can't pay as she's foregoing attending a doctor for.  Surely her PIP should have sorted and explained all this to her?



She is not going to the GP because she says it is a waste of money not because she can't afford it. She is still going to oncology appointments so maybe just doesn't need the GP. Of course she shouldn't put her PIP arrangement before health costs. She is not expected to. No creditor and no court would ever expect that. She is saying that she can afford to keep paying the €286 so that is what she should insist on paying unless she goes the bankruptcy route. If she can't afford the €286, then she should stop that as well. What cannot happen is that she starts paying over €900. To be honest, without knowing the full story, it appears like she has nothing to lose by stopping paying the PIP altogether. If she stop paying, the PIP fails, she simply becomes liable for the full debts and is open to legal action by the creditors. What is not clear is what the creditors would hope to get. Sounds like there is nothing there.


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## wrecked (27 Jul 2018)

the PIP has cost me nearly 6 grand to date. i had a variation before which cost 1500 i think when i insisted that i keep my daughters university fees as an expense.i argued that should anything happen to me then she will be my 16 year olds main carer and needs to be educated.they have allowed me keep my vhi.i've already paid about 13k.
they have my monthly income at 5477 before tax and expnditure  at 4919 after tax
at present i can afford the 400 per month i currently pay, some months its tight but i can do it.
i think i am going to email them back today quoting the figure i've got from the RLE calculator and advising that i'm paying over the amount quoted. if they refuse this then i'll reduce my hours at work  and go bankrupt. at this stage i've gone past caring and i've nothing to loose.


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## wrecked (27 Jul 2018)

i would like to say a big thank you to all who replied to me. i feel calmer and a bit more empowered.


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## Bronte (27 Jul 2018)

Wow. Pip's are very expensive.  Can't believe they'd argue about your daughter's university fees.  You're dead right to reduce your hours to get you to the magic number because all your hard work is making you more stressed and all of it goes to the PIA.  Particularly given your particular circumstances.

I don't understand how the PIP is looking at 900 when you've about 500 after expenditure.


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## Bronte (27 Jul 2018)

Sunny said:


> She is not going to the GP because she says it is a waste of money not because she can't afford it.



I disagree with you Sunny.  What's she's done is become so stressed she's literally crossing off things that she needs in order to save money.  A friendly GP in her circumstances is what she needs. Instead she's crossed off a necessity.  A GP is not a luxury when you have cancer.


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## wrecked (13 Aug 2018)

The estimated fees, costs, charges and outlays (“fees and outlays”) of the PIP will be €11,070.00 including VAT @ 23% plus estimated outlays of €492 payable to an independent third party for the provision of services specifically related to the arrangement payable in accordance with this clause 7.


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## Bronte (14 Aug 2018)

Is this 11K a new cost?


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## zxcvbnm (14 Aug 2018)

wrecked said:


> The estimated fees, costs, charges and outlays (“fees and outlays”) of the PIP will be €11,070.00 including VAT @ 23% plus estimated outlays of €492 payable to an independent third party for the provision of services specifically related to the arrangement payable in accordance with this clause 7.



Not sure I understand. So you are saying that your PIP wants to charge you and addition €11.5k to go back to the bank given your new financial circumstances?
Seems outrageous if that is the cost.

I was quoted a price of 1,250 by a PIP I saw when considering a DSA. The price you have been quoted is 10 times that figure.


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## wrecked (15 Oct 2018)

hi all.
back again!
i have been in touch with MABS and sent them everything, told me not to 
worry and they'd be in touch. i have'nt heard anything since so i've emailed again.
anyhow got this today:
A_s you have failed to submit the information and documentation necessary for a variation to the terms of your PIA to be proposed and the arrears now total €5,304.40 your PIA is now in the process of being terminated therefore I would advise that you make no further payments._
i have submitted all they ask for but then they keep sending me back to get it signed off again , they say i don't send stuff in. i have'nt responded to them as i'm just so tired of it all now.
i think i'll just go bankrupt and be done.


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## Bronte (15 Oct 2018)

Wait a moment Wrecked. I heard the exact same scenario about Mabs on the radio, just this weekend, just not sure which show. Anybody else here it, it was about Mabs lost staff and were they wereincompetent with paintwork etc. some women who had been in Mabs since 2008 I think and had paid everything back.


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## mtk (16 Oct 2018)

"Wrecked" afraid I have no specific knowledge in this area but I agree with others the cost  of the PIP appears very high and I hope both your health and financial problems get resolved.
All the best


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## RichInSpirit (16 Oct 2018)

Are PIPS etc. regulated? If not they should be. The original lenders might be easier to deal with than these third party PIPS.
Or PIAs or whatever they are called.


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