# energy upgrade options



## crowf (26 Dec 2009)

I have a 2007 build 4 bed semi d. Looking for ways to improve heat energy efficiency but only measures that have a realistic payback.
Have done all the obvious things - draught excluder as required, installed stove as more efficient than open fire, sufficient insulation in attic, seal on attic trap door - in the process of organising three zone stats instead of simple timer. Even have brass keyhole covers ordered for the three doors to prevent airflow!
Other options I have been looking at;

Solar - still not cost effective - payback too long.

External insulation - i think i would consider doing it was it not for the fact that with it being a semi-d, there will be cold bridging from adjoining property and also cold bridging around all doors and windows.

HRV - again - think its worthwhile - BUT - how do I go about making the house airtight??

Boiler - is only 3 years old - so  its hard to justify replacing for the most energy efficient equivalent just yet.

Is there anything else I am overlooking?  Anyone got any other ideas??


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## corkgal (26 Dec 2009)

Cavity wall insulation? It depends on how well the house was constructed in ythe first place


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## crowf (26 Dec 2009)

corkgal said:


> Cavity wall insulation?


Its a 2007 build so this has been done already.


corkgal said:


> It depends on how well the house was constructed in the first place


Sure - but I need to improve on what i've got - and its not going to be good enough as we move into the not so distant future. Most semis built around this time will be all virtually the same format - cavity insulation, attic insulation, floor insulation (hopefully...have no way of checking this now!) - executed to varying degrees of competence ie. may not be even application of cavity fill, some houses more airtight than others, etc.


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## Towger (26 Dec 2009)

A 2007 _*should*_ have a high level already, as you know builders have their own ideas on quality control! If you want to improve your insulation it may be worth while getting it checked for air tightness and with a thermal camera to find thermal bridgeing/their mistakes..


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## crowf (26 Dec 2009)

Towger said:


> A 2007 _*should*_ have a high level already


Its not bad on irish 'standards' given that its part of a development build. However, that doesn't mean that it can't be improved upon and that its of a standard that would be acceptable in countries that take a more progressive stance re. quality of build relative to energy efficiency.


Towger said:


> as you know builders have their own ideas on quality control! If you want to improve your insulation it may be worth while getting it checked for air tightness and with a thermal camera to find thermal bridgeing/their mistakes..


Something I have given some thought to previously. However, if I was to do this, I wouldn't have too much confidence in getting a result out of the builders in putting it right (if found to be substandard) as company is now defunct.
That said, I could go ahead with blower door testing/thermal imaging anyways.  Only question is, how much opportunity is there to improve on areas of weakness given that it would be a retrofit scenario?

Someone did suggest to me putting a complete sheet of breathable airtight membrane above the ceiling. How much benefit would this be??


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## onq (26 Dec 2009)

Get a BER assessment done with recommendations
Do the blower test to check sealing.
Take it from there.

ONQ.


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## Herbie (26 Dec 2009)

Thermostatic radiator valves?


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## AlbacoreA (27 Dec 2009)

Where do you get a blower test and a thermal camera. Whats the cost?

I wouldn't assume Irish standards for 2007 were adhered to.


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## moloney2 (27 Dec 2009)

Our house was built in 2004 and is 1200 sq feet.We have added an air-source heat pump which works down to approx. 1 degree and then the oil burner kicks in at temp.s below this.The heat pump will work at lower temp. but the cost efficiency reduces as the temp. lowers.This system heats our convector radiators to a very comfortable temp. and is at least half the price of oil to run. It is a great option to retro-fit to an existing system. We sourced the heat pump in the UK ( Wharf plumbing)and our neighbour fitted it for free, the total cost was 1500 euro but remember that does not include labour. This maybe something for you to consider for the future.


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## crowf (27 Dec 2009)

AlbacoreA said:


> Where do you get a blower test and a thermal camera. Whats the cost?


Many of the BER assessors can offer these services. In particular, the blower door test - as I believe that is often carried out on new builds for a more accurate assessment.  Otherwise, a google search will throw up service providers.
You should be aware that in the case of the thermal imaging, the quality of the work is determined by the quality of the camera and the experience of the operator (a proper camera costs 10k - but some of them will have poorer standard cameras worth <2k).
Its something that i'm interested in doing but the cost (like a lot of services in ireland) seems excessive to me...right now at least - maybe that might change.


AlbacoreA said:


> I wouldn't assume Irish standards for 2007 were adhered to.


Sure - but its an irrelevance to me - as even if i could prove that they werent, i dont see much hope of getting this rectified - so i'm not going to expend energy on it.


			
				Herbie said:
			
		

> Thermostatic radiator valves?


Yes, have had it in mind to get these too - but your suggestion got me thinking I will go for  Honeywell wireless TRV/Room Stats as mentioned [broken link removed] - instead of just a couple of zonal stats.  This should lead to efficient use of heat and the stats are relatively cheap.


			
				moloney2 said:
			
		

> Our house was built in 2004 and is 1200 sq feet.We have added an air-source heat pump which works down to approx. 1 degree and then the oil burner kicks in at temp.s below this


Have not spent much time investigating this option - so thanks for the suggestion.  The little i do know is that ground source heat pumps are cost prohibitive between the capital cost and the ongoing electricity requirement.  I'm not really familiar with air source heat pumps.  How disruptive was it to retrofit??
If you could describe a bit more how it works eg. how it links in with existing system, where it needs to be located,etc, i would appreciate it.
_EDIT : I have read up on air source heat pumps - plenty of threads on boards.ie - and the story doesn't seem to be good.  Excessive electricity costs; problems with them icing up due to the higher humidity levels in Ireland (or where there are not issues, this is due to extra electricity being expended to keep them ice-free) and apparently integrating it with an existing oil system is far from straightforward._  What are your electricity bills like?


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## moloney2 (27 Dec 2009)

At the moment for sept to nov it worked out at 1 euro per day for heat and hot water. We were able to site it right beside our oil-burner and we built a simple cover for it with vents for the intake and outake. The pipe work was relatively easy and the power supply was taken from the now redundant hot water heater. We installed it during the summer so there was the minimum hassle. We have it programmed so that when it is not cost efficient to run it the oil kicks in. This takes a little tweaking as my neighbour (the man who installed it) runs his at a slightly different temp to us as his house is more exposed and more likely to ice up if it was run at the same temp as ours, we are more sheltered. I can not tell you any more electrical and pipe-work details as it was my neighbour who did the main work and my husband did the donkey work at both houses. I believe that the company Wharf plumbing can be quite helpful and answer any questions that you might have, it cost 100 euro to ship which was included in the 1500 price that I mentioned as well as extra materials that were needed, thermostats etc.


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## crowf (27 Dec 2009)

moloney2 said:


> At the moment for sept to nov it worked out at 1 euro per day for heat and hot water


 That doesn't sound too bad. 


moloney2 said:


> we built a simple cover for it with vents for the intake and outake.


What is the cover made from? So as a result the unit doesn't ice up nor does the unit expend any energy in the process of keeping it ice free?


moloney2 said:


> I believe that the company Wharf plumbing can be quite helpful and answer any questions that you might have,


I have mailed them so should know more when they get back to work.

Thanks for posting and sorry for all the questions!  Its just that its a very small capital cost IF its gradually paying for itself - and thats what I would like to establish 100% beforehand.


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## moloney2 (28 Dec 2009)

You can install in a garage as well but as our oil burner was outside it made more sense to have it as close as possible as this cuts down on cost.The cover is made from wood, actually odds and ends that were made to fit together in a type of shed shape with a sloping roof covered in felt. My husband put in corrugated plastic dividers inside at each corner so that the cold outake goes directly out and does not feed into the intake which would drop the temp of the air going in, reducing the efficiency of the heat pump. The heat pump will only switch on the defrost if you are operating it at lower temps eg at 1 degree. On a comparison with oil you can still run the heat pump down to 1 degree and still make savings on your energy bill but it is more cost efficient to run it at slightly higher temps- after all the warmer the air is the more efficient the pump is. On average at the moment the pump kicks on when temps are at 1 degree or above and the oil operates at the lower temps- so during the daylight hours at the moment the heat pump does the heating and the hot water and in the evening the oil burner kicks. We do have a stove and zoned thermostats in the house as well so these all come into play so that the house maintains an average temp of 18 degrees- this suits us but some people would need it warmer. I would recommend to go bigger with the heat pump when using it with convector rads as the size they tell you is adequate for your sq. footage is for under floor heating. We went up one size and paid £200 extra compared to the one recommended and we are thrilled with the result. Hope this helps.
Good luck with it.
moloney2


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## quentingargan (29 Dec 2009)

I would caution one thing about the system you are proposing. Wholesale electricity prices (the price paid to the generators) can be as high as 25c per KwHr during the peak time around 5.00pm. Smart metering is ultimately going to result in a multi-tiered price structure for electricity which could see retail electricity prices of 40c to 50c at peak times to dissuade use. 

Heat pumps working underfloor heating will be less affected by this because there is more delay and they can "pre-heat" the house overnight, but the best option would be a two tonne buffer tank to ensure that all electricity used can be off-peak - if you have space for it. I've heard of heath-robinson versions of this done with an old oil tank and insulating foam as it can be open-vented, but proper buffer tanks are coming onto the market for log gassifying stoves. 

BTW, I wouldn't be so dismissive of solar. With the current grants in place, you can get a modest system installed for a nett cost of about €3,400. A fair whack of this price is for the work of changing your cylinder for a much better insulated cylinder which will also improve the performance of your heating system in winter time. If a payback time of 12 years can be achieved at todays energy prices, that is a return on investment of 8% and rising. Better than many other investments out there....


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## crowf (29 Dec 2009)

quentingargan said:


> I would caution one thing about the system you are proposing. Wholesale electricity prices (the price paid to the generators) can be as high as 25c per KwHr during the peak time around 5.00pm. Smart metering is ultimately going to result in a multi-tiered price structure for electricity which could see retail electricity prices of 40c to 50c at peak times to dissuade use.


Thanks for posting this quentin as had not come across this point in the other threads I read.  I know they have a trial in place at the moment but is there any firm timetable for its introduction?


quentingargan said:


> the best option would be a two tonne buffer tank to ensure that all electricity used can be off-peak - if you have space for it.


Don't have the space for it unless it could be buried!  The other point of frustration is that even if this could be utilised as the ideal workaround, they (esb) still charge a fee for nightrate that cancels out the benefit.  Surely a little rational thought would lead them to the conclusion that they would get more even distribution of useage (together with greater takeup of these technologies) if they axed this charge?

I think my plan for the moment is to get combo wireless trv's/stats on the rads and top up attic insulation. 
I will probably wait it out for a while - see what systems they start to develop with buffer tanks and see if the nightrate charge gets dropped.


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## quentingargan (29 Dec 2009)

As more renewables come onto the grid, "Demand Side Management" is going to become the new buzzword. How smart the smart metering will become remains to be seen, but many people in the field believe that ultimately devices such as washing machines, driers and freezers will be controlled by the meter and information online about current electricity price. 

At the other end, already some wind farms occasionally get curtailed at night because there is no local market for their power. As we move towards 40% of electricity coming from renewables, incentives to move consumption off-peak will be increasingly required. Some are arguing this as a reason to encourage the introduction of electric cars for example.

I think you are on the right road with individual room stats (it is absurd having two zones, and all bedrooms in one zone regardless of whether they are on the east or west side of the house). Attic insulation is real low-hanging fruit and should be done first. 

By the way, you mentioned the party wall in an earlier post. As long as you have neighbours (assuming the bank hasn't turfed them out) your party wall isn't taken into any energy assessment. It is assumed that they keep the wall at the same temperature you do, and that there is no heat loss there


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## crowf (4 Jan 2010)

It looks like I would be eligble for the €2000 grant even though I wouldn't be putting in underfloor heating.  On that basis, it may not cost me anything to install if a system (supply only) comes in around the €1200 mark.

On the basis of having nothing to lose, I might as well take this a stage further.  The greener homes scheme gives a list of systems and contractors.  I have no idea firstly which system is best and secondly which contractor is competent.


Can anyone help with this? 

@maloney2:  If i go the grant route, i probably wont be able to use wharf plumbing - but i'm interested in the system seeing as it seems to be working for you.  Is there a manufacturer name/model on the unit by any chance?


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## galwaytt (4 Jan 2010)

Towger said:


> A 2007 _*should*_ have a high level already, ......


 
....yes, but as Galway CoCo pointed out to me some months ago, when a friend enquired about some new, 2009-built houses, there are standards.....and there are standards: e.g. the new houses were cavity wall construction, bead-filled cavity, std double glazing, open fire, no renewable energy contribution of ANY kind i.e. no solar, no HRV -and, get this: NO airtightness measurement AT ALL. When pushed on 'why', she was told that 'it was not a requirement at the time planning was applied for'. And that they were B3 (iirc).......'under certain conditions'...

Eh ? 

So, the standards that apply are relative to the date of PLANNING, not of build.

Oh, and it's obviously a 'Do As I Say, Not Do As I Do' thing........


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## Buildright (6 Jan 2010)

Galway TT

were the houses built to wallplate before june 30 2009?

The 2007 part L came into effect for houses applying for lanning after July 01 2008  or houses applied prior to that but not having substantial work completed by *30 June 2009.*


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