# Knocknaheeny Regeneration Council Relocating Owner Occupiers



## thebop (20 Aug 2008)

Hi folks,

Anyone have any information or experience associated with the Council offering owner ocuppiers another place to live so they can bulldoze existing dwellings and build more affordable housing. Folks have been living there for over 30 years and don't really wish to relocate.

They are being offered three areas where they can relocate but the areas do not suit. The are owner occupiers so what legal standing would they have if any?

Thanks,
TB


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## huskerdu (21 Aug 2008)

Hi, Its still not clear to me what situation you are talking about. 

For a start - where is Knocknaheeny  ? what local authority are you talking about. 

Are the local authority attempting to get a compulsory purchase of these peoples
houses ? If so, are they not offering a price for the houses, not another house. 

Is it a council estate ?  How many properties are affected ?

You haven't given enough information for anyone to even guess what legal rights
these people have.


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## nacho_libre (21 Aug 2008)

Knocknaheeny is in Cork City.

Cork City Council are planning to knock a lot of existing dwellings and re-home 
the tennants in alternative accommodation. This will consist of new houses 
recently purchased by the Council from developers who were struggling to 
shift the units (but thats a whole different debate). 

Some of the new houses are nearby but some are not so nearby and will be a 
huge upheaval for some tennants. I thought these were all social houses and 
didn't think they were owner occupier, but some of the tennants have put a lot 
of their own money into these houses over the years and will now have to leave.


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## huskerdu (21 Aug 2008)

Thanks for the explanation. 

The OP mentioned owner occupiers being offered alternative houses. 

If these people have bought from the council, will the council not have
to go down the route of a compulsory purchase and buy the property. 
Are the council offering to rehouse them as well as purchasing ?
Was there a clause in the contract when they bought the houses which 
stipulated what happens in these circumstances ?


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## nacho_libre (21 Aug 2008)

huskerdu said:


> Thanks for the explanation.
> 
> The OP mentioned owner occupiers being offered alternative houses.
> 
> ...



To be honest, I don't know all of the details. I just heard some disgruntled 
tennants on the local radio a few weeks ago after receiving letters outlining 
the Councils' plan. If there are owner occupiers I'm sure a compulsory purchase order would be required to move these residents. It all seems 
to be totally unnecessary and a huge expense of taxpayers money.


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## csirl (21 Aug 2008)

> I thought these were all social houses and
> didn't think they were owner occupier, but some of the tennants have put a lot
> of their own money into these houses over the years and will now have to leave.


 
Tennants are tennants - no different to anyone else renting - they have no "right" to live in the house indefinately. A council tennant is not an owner occupier no matter how much money they've spent on fixtures and fittings.


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## nacho_libre (21 Aug 2008)

csirl said:


> Tennants are tennants - no different to anyone else renting - they have no "right" to live in the house indefinately. A council tennant is not an owner occupier no matter how much money they've spent on fixtures and fittings.



I agree, but its possible that some of these houses are occupied by people 
who would have bought their houses from the council in the past. So maybe 
not all are tennants as I thought.


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## thebop (21 Aug 2008)

Hi Folks,

Thanks for replies. Yes, the majority are tenants but i am refering to owner occupiers who purchased their property from the council over 10-15 years ago (hence there was never any clause in the contract when they bought the house)

Yes, the council are offering to house all tenants and owner occupiers but to be honest, the places they are suggesting are not suitable. 

Also, the new houses are worth more in today's market so i'm hearing the Council are going to ask owner occupiers to pay the difference from their exisiting home and new intended home. Can this be correct especially if they had no intention to move in the first place?

Are they entitled to receive the value of their house by the council and find their own property?

Are they entitled to any compensation for the fact that they have been there for over 30 years and had no plan to ever move?

Thanks


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## micmclo (21 Aug 2008)

thebop said:


> Are they entitled to receive the value of their house by the council and find their own property?


 
If they own the house the council will have to CPO it. Once they recieve the money they can do what they want. Not a chance of getting another council house though unless they buy it.



thebop said:


> Are they entitled to any compensation for the fact that they have been there for over 30 years and had no plan to ever move?


 

In a CPO order you get the market price. And let’s be honest, a house in the most famous council area in Cork won’t be getting a premium price. The market price is the fairest price and this is what you get And if you fight a CPO order and lose, you pay the legal costs. 
If they don't want to pay the difference between their house and the new house, they are free to search somewhere else.

Hundreds of people have had farms split in two by motorways and national roads but all they get paid is the market value plus provisions sometimes to install tunnels for livestocks. That is all.
And they held land for hundreds of years, not the mere 30 plus years the residents in Knocknaheeny were there. All in the name of progress I suppose

They can get the market value, they will not get compensation. Sure what grounds do they have: _“ the council ruined their plans”?_


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## nacho_libre (21 Aug 2008)

*This was taken directly from www.citizensinformation.ie
*

*Compulsory purchase*

  The compulsory acquisition of land takes place in Ireland to allow 		  a public infrastructure project to go ahead for the common good. The most 		  widely discussed applications of this refer to road improvement schemes and the 		  [broken link removed] project in 		  Dublin.
  The compulsory purchase system is an extremely complex area. You 		  should get the professional advice of a chartered surveyor as soon as you are 		  served with a notice relating to a Compulsory Purchase Order (CPO). The fees 		  charged by a chartered surveyor are part of a normal claim for 		  compensation.
  It is important to remember that you have the right to object, make 		  representations, negotiate, refer to property arbitrators and have your 		  objections heard. 
*Compensation*

  If your house and land is compulsorily purchased, you will be 		  eligible for compensation to restore you as far as possible to the same 		  position as you were in before the land and property was acquired. 


You should be paid compensation based on the market value of 			 your property.
You should be left in the same financial position after the 			 CPO as you were before the process.
The compensation should reflect both the actual land acquired 			 and the reduction in value, if any, of the retained area as a result of the 			 CPO.


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## thebop (21 Aug 2008)

micmclo - i take your comments on board. By compensation i mean, my folks are nearly 60 and don't want to start another mortgage. As you said, house price value in that area is not great so this would force my folks to go and find another property which would then force my folks to start another mortgage even though their mortgage is well cleared off. 

And for your comments, Sure what grounds do they have: _“ the council ruined their plans”? _This regeneration is nothing but a hindrance and can possible ruin their retirement period. Even with the houses, the council are offering, they will still need to get a new mortgage. This i find, is unreal.

nacho_libre - From the *www.citizensinformation.ie* it quotes "You should be left in the same financial position after the CPO as you were before the process" - does this imply that some compensation might in fact exist as my folks will need to find another home which will be of higher value than their existing home no matter where the new home will be?


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## thebop (21 Aug 2008)

It does mention compensation in Section 9.0 and 9.3 of this report

http://www.feasta.org/documents/landhousing/property.pdf


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## micmclo (21 Aug 2008)

thebop said:


> micmclo - i take your comments on board. By compensation i mean, my folks are nearly 60 and don't want to start another mortgage. As you said, house price value in that area is not great so this would force my folks to go and find another property which would then force my folks to start another mortgage even though their mortgage is well cleared off.
> 
> And for your comments, Sure what grounds do they have: _“ the council ruined their plans”? _This regeneration is nothing but a hindrance and can possible ruin their retirement period. Even with the houses, the council are offering, they will still need to get a new mortgage. This i find, is unreal.



Might have come across to strong, no offence intended.
I hear what you're saying about the regeneration but I'd imagine most of the tenants are looking forward to it but unfortunatly not such a big advantage for owner occupiers. The tenants are getting brand new homes but it's not so great for your parents if they are settled.

[broken link removed]
Archiseek is a website to with architecture and town planning. link here with feck all info but maybe start a post there and you'll get somewhere.

I only know the area from the Des Bishop shows where he visited various areas. Got pretty famous from that


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## thebop (21 Aug 2008)

No worries micmclo  Just trying to find out what's best for them.

That's my post in Archiseek - Trying to get info from all angles


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## gipimann (21 Aug 2008)

A look at the Ballymun Regeneration Website might provide some information, it's likely that some of the Ballymun residents were tenant-purchasers/homeowners so would have been in a similar situation to the Knocknaheeny residents?

[broken link removed]


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## csirl (22 Aug 2008)

> By compensation i mean, my folks are nearly 60 and don't want to start another mortgage. As you said, house price value in that area is not great so this would force my folks to go and find another property which would then force my folks to start another mortgage even though their mortgage is well cleared off.


 
Can your folks not buy a similar house in a similar area - then would not need to take out a mortgage? I'm sure CPO compensation includes stamp duty, removal costs etc. as well as the value of the house.


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## thebop (22 Aug 2008)

They would not prefer to buy in a similar area. If they are being forced to move now after all these years, they have said they would prefer to live near their grandchildren. I don't think they should be pigeon-holed into choosing a house which the council are offering which they don't like.

Has anyone here gone through a similar process?

Unlike the Ballymun regeneration website, there is nothing online or any information online regarding the knocknaheeny regeneration scheme. They have contacted Council via Solicitor and got a reply saying they will be dealt with in time.


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## csirl (22 Aug 2008)

> They would not prefer to buy in a similar area.


 
The idea of CPO is that people will be in no better or worse position after the CPO - similar area or market value of house + removal expenses is fair.



> I don't think they should be pigeon-holed into choosing a house which the council are offering which they don't like.


 
Then why dont they take the cash offer instead of the property swap option and choose their own new house?



> Unlike the Ballymun regeneration website, there is nothing online or any information online regarding the knocknaheeny regeneration scheme.


 
I'm guessing that the tower blocks in Ballymun were never sold to residents - always in council ownership, so no CPOs necessary. I read somewhere recently that DCC were reviewing their policy of never selling individual council flats (only ever sold council houses to residents) which implies that none have been sold in the past.


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## thebop (22 Aug 2008)

I'm not sure if they have the choice to take a cash offer. Would this be possible that they would not be offered this if they wanted to live somewhere else?


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## z109 (22 Aug 2008)

thebop said:


> I'm not sure if they have the choice to take a cash offer. Would this be possible that they would not be offered this if they wanted to live somewhere else?


I think that's unlikely, unless someone is trying to pull a fast one. They are entitled to a payment to do with as they will, since they own the house and are free to sell. That would be my understanding of the CPO, but I have only been involved in it from the land side where the offer was equivalent land or market value of the land. In the case of land, there is a sting in the tail as CGT is owed on the cash sum, but I would doubt that applies to a PPR purchase.

They do own their house outright without any council interest in it?


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## thebop (22 Aug 2008)

Yes, they do own their own house


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