# Garda speed traps



## padh (1 Aug 2006)

When a speedtrap is operated by Garda , do they have to stop you to issue penalty points . I know the fixed Gatso cameras photo the Reg no. and one gets done that way....but a Garda held speed gun does it record the number plate  ...( you kno wthe ines that look like hairdriers or video cameras)


----------



## RonanC (1 Aug 2006)

they have to stop you and issue you with the speeding ticket


----------



## Frank (1 Aug 2006)

How could a body express annoyance to a Gardai without incurring the wrath.

Saw a speed trp setup on the north carriage on the N11 at Kilmacanogue at the north end.

Dual carriageway main road to wexford with a rediulous limit of 60 KPH 

Fish in a barrel very cynical place to wetup a trap.

Not saving lives making money.


----------



## Eurofan (2 Aug 2006)

Beware though that there have been a few cars issued with forward looking 'gatso-like' equipment that negates the need to pull you over. Although it'll be hard to notice this speed gun will be hooked up to the car and records and image of you as you speed.


----------



## roxy (2 Aug 2006)

Can someone confirm if the 'gatso' ones are the transit vans with the blacked out windows? Also, when there is just one garda in a car with the hairdryer type out the window, does he need to pull you over for you to be caught? Thanks..


----------



## elcato (2 Aug 2006)

> Saw a speed trp setup on the north carriage on the N11 at Kilmacanogue at the north end.
> Dual carriageway main road to wexford with a rediulous limit of 60 KPH



So is your problem with the speed limit ? The Gardai are not responible for this. They enforce the law. If you dont want to get caught then dont exceed the speed limit.


> Fish in a barrel very cynical place to setup a trap.


Why ? Should the gardai send a message out on the radio to tell people that they will be catching people speeding in x place at y time ?


> Not saving lives making money.


Assuming people didn't break the law by speeding then I dont see how they would make money. Would you be happier if they decided that everyone should drive at 140km/h to 'save' lives ?


----------



## ajapale (2 Aug 2006)

The stretch of road on the N11 at Kilmacannog was the subject of a recent court hearing. As far as I can remember the County Council were unable/unwilling to provide evidence that this pecular speed limit had been properly consitituted.

Does anyone know what the process is for setting speedlimits? Is there a facility for members of the public to object if they think the limit is inappropriate (either too high or too low).

Are speed limits revised in light of changing circumstances?

I also seem to remember Minister Cullen having a go at Co Co's who (he claims) have been negligent in the execution of their statutory duties concerning the administration of speed limits.


----------



## NiallA (2 Aug 2006)

> Does anyone know what the process is for setting speedlimits? Is there a facility for members of the public to object if they think the limit is inappropriate (either too high or too low).



Speed limits are set as byelaws by the appropriate council.  they publish a scheme of speed limits and invite submissions.  there is a minimum period for submissions to be recieved and then the councillors consider the submissions and then adopt or vary the speedlimit byelaw.


----------



## JoeB (2 Aug 2006)

Hi

It was on the radio that a judge in Wicklow threw out over 200 speeding tickets issued in Kilmacanogue because of some problem, probably because of ajapale's reason, County Council couldn't provide some necessary information... the radio report didn't give much info....

It sounds like a good defence, I didn't know speed limits could be challanged... I had a problem with a speeding ticket issued just south of Kilmacanogue, had to go to Bray district twice and appeal to the Circuit Court in Wicklow, won in the end... the State chose not to contest the case in the Circuit Court for some reason... 

Still a nightmare, had to take three days off work and call into Bray District Court five times.

Cheers
Joe


----------



## JoeB (2 Aug 2006)

One other thing on speeding tickets

It's a principle of law that you can't be offered an inducment or incentive to plead guilty to a crime, however the penalty points system does just that, plead guilty and get a reduced penalty... what a joke, I thought people had a right to have a case proven against them without threat of an increased penalty. 

I posted this question before and there wasn't a satisfactory response in my opinion.

Cheers
Joe


----------



## padh (3 Aug 2006)

Joe ,

I reckon as soon as somone is brave enough to contest this leagl question we will see challenge.  I reckon already considered by Govt lelgal advisers who must have some basis for reckoning it woould stand up.  My guess is a smart lawyer could challenge it.

P


----------



## Satanta (3 Aug 2006)

Very interesting episode of [broken link removed] on last night (Discovery - repeat of 5th Gear 2003, series 4, 2 [broken link removed] Oct 20 Ultimate Stealth Car) in relation to speed checks etc.

Covered everything from the "laser detectors" (which I was surprised to hear a UK police officer confirm as legal) to the "laser jammers" (obviously highly illegal given they interfere with police activity) [disguised as parking sensors or remote garage door openers which totally block the speed guns just giving an error code]. Combine these with the "paint" you often see for sale which "blinds" a speed camera when it flashes and the home made CD hanging from the rear view mirror (reflect/scatter a laser speed gun) and it really is disturbing. Was especially surprised that the radar sensors (warn a little in advance of approaching a police speed gun) were said to be fully legal (at least in the UK), believe I've heard stories of them being confiscated in the past.

Quite an old show (some may not even be relevant now) by now so wouldn't even like to think about what could turn up should it be investigated now.


----------



## ajapale (3 Aug 2006)

Hi NiallA,

Thanks for that information.



> Speed limits are set as byelaws by the appropriate council. they publish a scheme of speed limits and invite submissions. there is a minimum period for submissions to be recieved and then the councillors consider the submissions and then adopt or vary the speedlimit byelaw.



Im assuming that the bye law could have been passed back several decades ago and that the scheme of limits relate to new or proposed revised speed limits?

aj


----------



## RonanC (4 Aug 2006)

Satanta said:
			
		

> Covered everything from the "laser detectors" (which I was surprised to hear a UK police officer confirm as legal)


 
They are totally legal in the UK as the Police were taken to court about them and they were Judged to be legal on the grounds that they warned the driver of potential accident black spots (were the police were meant to be doing speed checks) 

but of course in Ireland, even the mention of them to a Garda is totally Illegal and warrants 1000000 penalty points...


----------



## whackin (4 Aug 2006)

RonanC said:
			
		

> They are totally legal in the UK as the Police were taken to court about them and they were Judged to be legal on the grounds that they warned the driver of potential accident black spots (were the police were meant to be doing speed checks)
> 
> but of course in Ireland, even the mention of them to a Garda is totally Illegal and warrants 1000000 penalty points...




Quite rightly. Anythign which assists in people speeding without threat of getting caught should be illegal.


----------



## RonanC (4 Aug 2006)

whackin said:
			
		

> Quite rightly. Anythign which assists in people speeding without threat of getting caught should be illegal.


 
They are legal in the UK for a SAFETY reason. GARDAI in Ireland do not do speed checks in accident black spots.. They sit on Dual Carraigeways collecting money for Revenue. Not exactly helping with the preoblem is it? 

I had this arguement with a very high ranking Garda in the Traffic Corp. I asked him why do Gardai continue to hide behind bus shelters, walls, bushes, vans with their speed guns and Gatso's instead of being VERY HIGH Visability so that drivers are aware that they are there. Maybe we need to be told point black not to speed and if the Gardai were visable on the roads like they are when filmed for TV or news reports. Why when you see a news report on TV, you see 6 Gardai in High Visability jackets with the speed gun, clearly seen to all drivers on the road.. But in reality they hide in unmarked cars, vans, behind all sorts of things... If you were speeding and went past them but didnt see them. Would you continue to speed? probably !!! But if you saw then you think again about it and more than likely slow down !

rant over.


----------



## whackin (4 Aug 2006)

RonanC said:
			
		

> They sit on Dual Carraigeways collecting money for Revenue.




You're obviously blinded by personal experience. It's not quite as simplistic as that. The law is the law and it should be upheld despite the opinions of people like you who think they know better.


----------



## RonanC (4 Aug 2006)

whackin said:
			
		

> You're obviously blinded by personal experience. It's not quite as simplistic as that. The law is the law and it should be upheld despite the opinions of people like you who think they know better.


 
the law is the law and its made by people who being honest havnt a clue whats going on in the world.. 

and for the record, i've no penalty points. no speeding convictions and a clean full NCB and have an Advanced Driving course under my belt. I drive every day on the busiest roads in the country during peek times mostly so not even a chance to speed if i wanted to....


----------



## RonanC (4 Aug 2006)

whackin said:
			
		

> You're obviously blinded by personal experience. It's not quite as simplistic as that. The law is the law and it should be upheld despite the opinions of people like you who think they know better.


 
I am sickened by the amount of young drivers being killed on our roads. It really gets to me. I am young enough and wonder could this happen to me, does this happen to all young drivers?? But then i think. I feel im pretty well educated on the roads, speed limits and so on. 

But what is being done about it?? ah sure just blame the people who speed on the N7, N4 and N11... Its their fault. But is it?? Tell me the last time somebody lost their life on either of those roads.. so why do the Gardai constantly set up speed checks here? Looks like Easy Money to me and lets be honest it does.


----------



## RonanC (4 Aug 2006)

whackin said:
			
		

> people like you who think they know better.


 
and i dont think i know any better than the next person. Im voicing my opinion, you dont have to listen to it, but whats a forum all about ?? Voicing your opinion.


----------



## RS2K (4 Aug 2006)

padh said:
			
		

> When a speedtrap is operated by Garda , do they have to stop you to issue penalty points . I know the fixed Gatso cameras photo the Reg no. and one gets done that way....but a Garda held speed gun does it record the number plate ...( you kno wthe ines that look like hairdriers or video cameras)



No a speed gun indicates speed and records nothing else. If you are not stopped you have dodged a bullet.


----------



## roxy (4 Aug 2006)

RonanC said:
			
		

> But what is being done about it?? ah sure just blame the people who speed on the N7, N4 and N11... Its their fault. But is it?? Tell me the last time somebody lost their life on either of those roads.. so why do the Gardai constantly set up speed checks here? Looks like Easy Money to me and lets be honest it does.


 
Well said, you've hit the nail on the head here Ronan, these are the safest roads in the country and there are always speed checks on them. And yet everyday we are hearing about people being killed in little country towns and narrow lanes. These towns probably only have a couple of garda working there and the station closes in the evening, yet on the main roads there are plenty of them standing around. I'm not blaming them personally, I'm sure they are told where to go, but it really makes you look at the how the country is being run.


----------



## whackin (4 Aug 2006)

RonanC said:
			
		

> I am sickened by the amount of young drivers being killed on our roads. It really gets to me. I am young enough and wonder could this happen to me, does this happen to all young drivers?? But then i think. I feel im pretty well educated on the roads, speed limits and so on.
> 
> But what is being done about it?? ah sure just blame the people who speed on the N7, N4 and N11... Its their fault. But is it?? Tell me the last time somebody lost their life on either of those roads.. so why do the Gardai constantly set up speed checks here? Looks like Easy Money to me and lets be honest it does.



According to Figures, 100% of detection work is carried out on these roads and that mirrors the amount of accidents occurring on the road. The reality is that the amount of work done on minor roads and city streets near schools and built up areas rarely gets attention.
Moreover regardless of how few accidents occur on these big roads tehy ahve to be policed more regularly or else people would drive at whatever speed they felt like if they thought they'd never get caught.


----------



## Blinder (4 Aug 2006)

roxy said:
			
		

> Well said, you've hit the nail on the head here Ronan, these are the safest roads in the country and there are always speed checks on them.



Has it occurred that maybe they are the safest roads 'because' there are speed checks on them? That if there wasn't speed checks on them that more people would speed on them, therefore causing more acidents?


----------



## RonanC (4 Aug 2006)

Blinder said:
			
		

> Has it occurred that maybe they are the safest roads 'because' there are speed checks on them? That if there wasn't speed checks on them that more people would speed on them, therefore causing more acidents?


 
they are the safest roads because they were built for higher speed driving. You cannot drive head on into oncoming traffic. They are generally well maintained and well surfaced and well lite. I do agree that Gardai still need to patrol these roads and patrol them in *HIGH VISABILITY*(it doesnt cost them anymore to do this) to stop people from speeding, becuase this is what i think.. _If you are the type of person who will speed on the N4 then you will also speed on the N72 or whatever smaller national road_..


----------



## Lorz (4 Aug 2006)

Have to say I agree with RonanC and Roxy - the only speed checks I ever see are on open dual carriageways where there is plenty of visibility. The majority of accidents are on small, country roads or late at night when, from my experience, there are NEVER gardaí around.  

Some of the roads I travel daily are small byroads with a speed limit of 80kmph which IMO is too fast yet on another part of my trip the dual carriageway could easily be increased to 110kmph - where are the few speed checks I seldom see - on the dual carriageway!  

I don't drink much and so am DD quite a bit and have driven anything from 10-30miles late at night/early hours of morning for several years - through Cork City and busy suburbs and I have only ever been stopped once!  It's at this hour of the night that you see the dangerous driving - people taking chances with speed & drink - messing in the car, taking their eyes off the road, falling asleep and where are our gardaí?


----------



## roxy (4 Aug 2006)

I think Ronan has summed it up with his reply, they are better roads with better visiblilty on them. I'm not saying they shouldn't have speed traps at all on them, I just think they should spread the garda around a bit, instead of keeping them in the same places all the time. Every Sunday afternoon for the past 2 years there has been a spped check on the Belgard Road near Newlands Cross without fail. There's always at least 4 of them, sometimes 2 or 3 motorbikes as well. Looks to me like they're just passing time till they can knock off for the day as they never seem to stop anyone. Everyone knows they're there at this time anyway and they know that, hence an easy day. They would serve the country better if they were in the dangerous spots, for instance that spot in Donegal with that awful crash last year where a number of teenagers were killed.


----------



## Satanta (4 Aug 2006)

Lorz said:
			
		

> I don't drink much and so am DD quite a bit and have driven anything from 10-30miles late at night/early hours of morning for several years - through Cork City and busy suburbs and I have only ever been stopped once!


Have yet to see a speed check late at night, but being in a similiar position as DD at night in Cork, I've been stopped into double figures in the last two months. 

Quick check of tax and insurance usually, sometimes a drop the window to check for a smell of alcohol or check the licence (only once noticed them check the tyres which I thought would be more common).
It is usually the same spots though, the entrance to Kent station, the far side of the train station car park (towards Jurys Inn), a little out the Airport road etc. Yet to come across a speed check around Cork city while I've come across plenty of speeding drivers!


----------



## whackin (4 Aug 2006)

roxy said:
			
		

> I think Ronan has summed it up with his reply, they are better roads with better visiblilty on them. I'm not saying they shouldn't have speed traps at all on them, I just think they should spread the garda around a bit, instead of keeping them in the same places all the time.



But see this is the thing, The Gardai have published figures which show that Big roads only get a proportional amount of attention. Obviously because they are well-used roads they are going to be seen by more people. But in reality they do the small roads get a proportional amount of attention. A lof of the people I know who have got points for speeding have got them for breaking lesser speed limits or for speeding in rural areas

Ronan makes the point that The gardai should be on the Main roads but that they should be visible. That's correct to a point, but they also need to be hidden, otherwise there is no deterrent if you can just slow down as soon as you see them.


----------



## RonanC (4 Aug 2006)

whackin said:
			
		

> Ronan makes the point that The gardai should be on the Main roads but that they should be visible. That's correct to a point, but they also need to be hidden, otherwise there is no deterrent if you can just slow down as soon as you see them.


 
but the point I tried to make to the Traffic Corp is that if you speed and get caught by a Gatso van or a unmarked garda car or a garda hiding behind a bush, will you slow down?? I dont think so, because you didnt see them, didnt know they were there... You wont even think anything about it really.. you'll continue to drive on as you'd normally do...


----------



## whackin (4 Aug 2006)

RonanC said:
			
		

> but the point I tried to make to the Traffic Corp is that if you speed and get caught by a Gatso van or a unmarked garda car or a garda hiding behind a bush, will you slow down?? I dont think so, because you didnt see them, didnt know they were there... You wont even think anything about it really.. you'll continue to drive on as you'd normally do...



Until you get caught 6 times (or less depending on how mush you value being able to drive).


----------



## RonanC (4 Aug 2006)

whackin said:
			
		

> Until you get caught 6 times (or less depending on how mush you value being able to drive).


 
exactly what happened to an elderly women on the N4 at the Spa Hotel.. got caught 6 times by the fixed speed camera and was notified of them all at the same time.. lost her license..

She didnt even know and hadnt got the chance to change her ways... But at the end of the day she shouldnt have been speeding (but if you know the area in issue you'll kind of sympathise with her)


----------



## roxy (4 Aug 2006)

RonanC said:
			
		

> exactly what happened to an elderly women on the N4 at the Spa Hotel.. got caught 6 times by the fixed speed camera and was notified of them all at the same time.. lost her license..
> 
> She didnt even know and hadnt got the chance to change her ways... But at the end of the day she shouldnt have been speeding (but if you know the area in issue you'll kind of sympathise with her)


 
Sorry for finding humour in this Ronan, you wrote it very funny though! An elderly woman speeding 6 times! Not the usual stereotype at all!


----------



## whackin (4 Aug 2006)

RonanC said:
			
		

> exactly what happened to an elderly women on the N4 at the Spa Hotel.. got caught 6 times by the fixed speed camera and was notified of them all at the same time.. lost her license..
> 
> She didnt even know and hadnt got the chance to change her ways... But at the end of the day she shouldnt have been speeding (but if you know the area in issue you'll kind of sympathise with her)



That's a different issue. That's an administration issue that has nothing to do with  Speed Cameras on a main road.
Regardless, she shouldn't have been speeding. She was obviously a consistently breaking the law.
Plus, I'm sure that story is an urban legend.


----------



## RonanC (4 Aug 2006)

whackin said:
			
		

> Plus, I'm sure that story is an urban legend.


 

http://www.rte.ie/news/2004/0812/points.html


----------



## roxy (4 Aug 2006)

Ok here's a perfect example. I've just been down to Tallaght village to 'do' the banks. There was 4 garda setting up a checkpoint or speedtrap on the dual carriageway, couldn't see which. Now on the friday of a Bank Holiday in Talaght Village I can't see anyone doing more than 10 mph in that village with the traffic so bad never mind breaking the speed limit. My only hope is that they were rookies being shown the ropes in preparation for the weekend.


----------



## whackin (4 Aug 2006)

RonanC said:
			
		

> http://www.rte.ie/news/2004/0812/points.html



I stand corrected. Nonetheless, my other points stand.


----------



## elcato (4 Aug 2006)

> but the point I tried to make to the Traffic Corp is that if you speed and get caught by a Gatso van or a unmarked garda car or a garda hiding behind a bush, will you slow down?? I dont think so, because you didnt see them, didnt know they were there... You wont even think anything about it really.. you'll continue to drive on as you'd normally do...


 So the only way people will not speed on roads is if they see police on the side of the road ? I know, lets bring in a rule that everytime someone drives they have to have a garda in the car beside them. That way we'll never speed. Oh hang on a minute, how will we be able to pay them seeing as we cant set up our 'fish in a barrel' sting anymore? You're beyond redemption. If you dont speed then you dont worry about seeing police or not, plain and simple. 


> so why do the Gardai constantly set up speed checks here? Looks like Easy Money to me and lets be honest it does.


 Only because people are willing to break the law.


----------



## Lorz (4 Aug 2006)

I think the main problem is that some roads have limits which are not appropriate to the condition of the road.  For example, a number of roads that I will travel this evening on my way home have a speed limit of 80kmp and while one would not be breaking the law by driving at this speed, IMO they would be driving dangerously and that should be the issue as opposed to driving over the speed limit because clearly the LAs do not wish to review the limits set out on various roads.


----------



## Eurofan (4 Aug 2006)

I would far rather see the 50kph limit in towns and villages being targeted as i see driving in these areas far in excess of these limits all the time. Resources should be directed at those who do 60-75 in a 50kph zone rather than 130-135 in a 120kph zone.

The former is far more dangerous and presents a potential greater loss of life than the latter in case of an accident/loss of control etc.

The unlimited lane on the German Autobahns is, by km, the safest stretch of roads in Europe. Speed doesn't kill, inappropriate speed kills.


----------



## Guest127 (4 Aug 2006)

what about the norn iron system, where you pass cameras continuously taking numbers and further on you pass the same again and they can compute your average speed between them. theres about 6 of them between the border and sheepbridge near banbridge at present. as I will be using the N11 tomorrow I will observe the speed limits even if it sickens the following drivers. not my problem if they get annoyed. and for what its worth I have posted here before that I personally believe the speed limit on the M50 is too high. too much traffic for that speed limit. if one accident occurs then anything is liable to happen. I know it a good road, but the volumn of traffic is also very high.


----------



## Happy_Harry (5 Aug 2006)

cuchulainn said:
			
		

> what about the norn iron system, where you pass cameras continuously taking numbers and further on you pass the same again and they can compute your average speed between them.


 
These are now quite common in Holland, they were introduced on a stretch of motorway ( 3 lanes) in Rotterdam, where the speed limit was set to 80 km/h for environmental reasons ( noise and CO2 levels). It must be the most effective way of enforcing speed limits, everyone sticks to 80, you will always get a fine if you don't.


----------



## bond-007 (6 Aug 2006)

RonanC said:
			
		

> http://www.rte.ie/news/2004/0812/points.html


That story is over 12 months old and nothing has been done about it.


----------



## Guest127 (7 Aug 2006)

just back from weekend in new ross. used the m11/n11 for the first time in 10 years. it was like a throwback to the old days. bits of good road here, bits of bad road there. Gorey should be renamed Stoprey as the Go bit is anything but accurate. coming back today I noticed we went from 100 to 60 at that Kilmacanogue spot, for no apparant reason. where did 80 go to? can see why it would raise the hackles of regular road users. in general would hate to be driving on this road on a regular basis. IMO road not up to the volume of traffic on it.


----------



## Cantona7 (9 Aug 2006)

Travel down to Rosslare about 4 times a month.. getting through Gorey is anything from 45min to 80min.It has 2 traffic lights in the main street "regulating" flow. Other than that there is no reason for the delay.

On the speed issue, there is a regular "speed trap" at the Leopardstown race course every Fri night, set up about 20 metres from a major roundabout.. whoever plans these sitings is seriously deluded if they think it will sort out the carnage on the roads.


----------



## whackin (9 Aug 2006)

cuchulainn said:
			
		

> just back from weekend in new ross. used the m11/n11 for the first time in 10 years. it was like a throwback to the old days. bits of good road here, bits of bad road there. Gorey should be renamed Stoprey as the Go bit is anything but accurate. coming back today I noticed we went from 100 to 60 at that Kilmacanogue spot, for no apparant reason. where did 80 go to? can see why it would raise the hackles of regular road users. in general would hate to be driving on this road on a regular basis. IMO road not up to the volume of traffic on it.



On the sunday Tribune on er, Sunday there was a 2 page article on road deaths on that stretch of road (i think). Harrowing stuff.


----------



## Humpback (9 Aug 2006)

whackin said:
			
		

> On the sunday Tribune on er, Sunday there was a 2 page article on road deaths on that stretch of road (i think). Harrowing stuff.


 
The article related to a stretch of road on the N11 further south than the stupid 60kmph limit at Kilmacanogue with it's dual carraigeway (where as far as I know, there's been little or no incidents of road traffic deaths in last couple of years).

Which just shows the stupidity of the speed limits. The limit (as far as I remember) on the stretch of road mentioned in the article is 100kmph, on a single carriage road.


----------



## Cantona7 (9 Aug 2006)

The Kilmacanogue 60km speed limit seems to be a case of Wicklow CC sticking their heels in and not conceeding that the limit is ridiculous in the face of opposition from every auto associated association (AA.. Dept of Transport etc) but as they bye laws are set by local councils nobody can intervene and it takes more than 12 months to review a byelaw. From Loughlinstown out the limits change from 120 km to 100km to 60 km to 80km and back to 100km all in the space of prob 10 kilometers and its all dual carraigeway!! bizarre.


----------



## bond-007 (10 Aug 2006)

The NRA do have to approve these limits too.


----------



## shnaek (10 Aug 2006)

What's the story with the Michelstown bypass? That's 80 also. Been asking around and the only answer I get is 'money-spinner'.


----------

