# Do Credit Union staff win 30% of the cars in prize draws?



## Brendan Burgess (8 Mar 2018)

Apparently, across 276 credit unions, they win 30% of the cars in the raffles.

https://www.thesun.ie/news/2281865/central-bank-credit-union-probe-car-cash-competitions/

_wheely dodgy _
*Central Bank credit union probe finds almost one third of cars or cash offered in competitions were won by either staff or directors*

I find it hard to believe how the staff could be this lucky, so I wonder if the Sun has misinterpreted the report.

Brendan


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## RedOnion (8 Mar 2018)

My understanding was that staff / directors have won a prize in at last 1 draw in the period examined, in 30% of the Credit Unions, as opposed to winning 30% of the total prizes.


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## Brendan Burgess (8 Mar 2018)

Thanks Red

That makes much more sense.  I have edited the title of the thread accordingly.

Brendan


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## RedOnion (8 Mar 2018)

That doesn't make such a sensational headline though!


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## Gordon Gekko (8 Mar 2018)

There’s more than a hint of Father Ted about this story...


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## peemac (8 Mar 2018)

RedOnion said:


> That doesn't make such a sensational headline though!


The indo missed a more sensationalist headline - over 35% of cu draws that staff could enter, staff won prizes!

15% of the cu's did not permit staff enter, so the 30% came from the 85% that did.

Even if it was over a 2 1/2 year period,  its still in Fr. Ted category .


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## Brendan Burgess (9 Mar 2018)

Has anyone a link to the Central Bank's actual findings?  I can't find it on their website. 

This is what the Irish Times says

*Directors and staff won prizes in 30% of credit union draws*

This is very different from what Red Onion's understanding: 

_My understanding was that staff / directors have won a prize in at last 1 draw in the period examined, in 30% of the Credit Unions, as opposed to winning 30% of the total prizes._


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## RedOnion (9 Mar 2018)

Just started reading it. Here's the link from their Twitter account 
https://t.co/1u4nqS3XqV?amp=1


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## RedOnion (9 Mar 2018)

Quote:
"
 In approximately 30% of credit unions who operate prize draws staff and directors have won prizes over 
the period October 2014 to March 2017."

The question they were asked:
Have any staff have won prizes from 1st October 2014 to 31 March 2017?
Have any directors have won prizes from 1st October 2014 to 31 March 2017?

Either I've completely misread this (possible!), Or thus has been very badly reported across the board.


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## Brendan Burgess (9 Mar 2018)

I attach the letter

o 128 (46%)  of credit unions operate a prize draw

o Approximately 446,000 members participate in prize draws, an increase of circa 46,000 from 2015 to 2017


 Member Participation
o In several credit unions there was poor record keeping of members’ written authorisation and withdrawal f orms.
o Circa 85% of credit unions allow staff and directors to participate in prize draws.
o In approximately 30% of credit unions who operate prize draws, staff and directors have won prizes over the period
October 2014 to March 2017.


This is very clear to me and I agree with Red Onion.

128 credit unions had draws over the period
Assuming they had monthly draws, that would be 128 x 30 months or 3,840 draws.
Staff and directors in 30% of 128 credit unions won prizes - so that would be 38 prizes in total (assuming only one win in each credit union.)

So the right summary would be  c.1% of prizes were won by credit union staff and directors?

All the draws are probably not monthly.
In some Credit Unions, the staff probably won more than once.
In 15% of Credit Unions, the staff were not allowed enter.

But 1% is closer to the 30% reported in the Irish Times and elsewhere.

Brendan


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## Brendan Burgess (9 Mar 2018)

I was thinking of a draw with just one prize - a car. 

But  many of the draws probably have a few prizes. 

Say, the average number of prizes per draw is 5, then the staff won only 0.2% of prizes. 

Brendan


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## 24601 (9 Mar 2018)

Brendan Burgess said:


> I attach the letter
> 
> o 128 (46%)  of credit unions operate a prize draw
> 
> ...



This would be a better interpretation of the report. In fact, some credit union prize draws have many prizes each month (I know of one CU that has up to 20 each month) so the percentage of prizes won by staff is likely to be minuscule.


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## Brendan Burgess (9 Mar 2018)

[broken link removed] gave out 41 prizes in March 2017. They have quarterly draws.  So that averages out at 10 prizes a month. 

It would be astonishing if staff and directors did not occasionally win a prize. 

If the other Credit Unions are like this, the the staff and directors should win at least one prize in almost every credit union.

Brendan


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## Brendan Burgess (9 Mar 2018)

And here is St Raphael's 

*Great Prize Draws*
*Every year we give away prizes worth over € 1.3 million to our members.*

It costs just €6.50 per month. Prizes include luxury cars and cash. There are special Summer and Christmas Monster Draws plus 12 monthly draws. We offer members the chance to win* 67* cars, Cash,  & All-Ireland Football & Hurling Tickets.  Once you are registered for the Car Draw, you are automatically entered into* ALL* our Draws here @ St. Raphael’s!


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## gipimann (9 Mar 2018)

The draw structure from the Health Services Staffs CU
_
All members are welcome to participate in our monthly prize draw which currently costs €2.75 every month.
Each month we give away *one prize of €20,000 and 10 prizes of €1,000!*
Every January we run a prize draw for all entrants of the prize draw where *we could pay your bills for the year to the value of €12,000.*
Every Christmas we give away* 500 prizes of €500*._

https://www.hsscu.ie/prize-draw/


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## 24601 (9 Mar 2018)

Without the statistics in relation to the number of draws, number of prizes and number of director/staff entrants it's impossible to conclude there is anything untoward about this. In fact, given the probabilities that can be deduced from some of the prize draw details published by credit unions online it's a wonder that it's not closer to 100% of the 128 credit union rather than 30% given that credit unions all have boards of between 7 and 11 people with the numbers of staff anywhere up to 50 or 60 in the very large credit unions.


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## Brendan Burgess (9 Mar 2018)

Thanks Gipimann

That is  633 prizes in total per year - it's about 1,800 prizes over the period of the survey. 

It would be astonishing if a director or staff member did not win at least one prize during that period.

Brendan


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## Sunny (9 Mar 2018)

Why are staff members and directors even part of the draw? Every competition run by companies involving the public will nearly always exclude staff and their families as part of the terms and conditions. Would strike me as basic governance. Not saying there is anything wrong but why risk even the perception of something untoward. It's pretty amateur stuff by the credit unions. It's unfortunate but if you want to work there, you can't enter the draw. Join a different credit union as a customer and enter that draw if you want.


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## odyssey06 (9 Mar 2018)

Lads, I need a new car. I hope you will all join me as I setup a new AAM Credit Union to assist in this worthy goal.


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## Brendan Burgess (9 Mar 2018)

I suggested to the Central Bank that they should clarify their report and they sent me this response: 

"Thanks for your email. We are in touch with some media outlets to ensure there is an accurate understanding of the report's findings"

Brendan


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## Brendan Burgess (9 Mar 2018)

Is this that hard to understand? 


"In approximately 30% of credit unions who operate prize draws, staff and directors have won prizes over the period
October 2014 to March 2017." 

The Irish Times has still not corrected its headline

https://www.irishtimes.com/business...-prizes-in-30-of-credit-union-draws-1.3419808

The copy is not as bad - but it is still not right.

_A Central Bank review of credit unions has found that, in roughly 30 per cent of those that operated prize draws, staff and directors were the winners of those prizes. _

There is no news here other than 

"Central Bank finds no evidence of malpractice in Credit Union raffles" 

Brendan


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## odyssey06 (9 Mar 2018)

Brendan Burgess said:


> There is no news here other than
> "Central Bank finds no evidence of malpractice in Credit Union raffles"
> Brendan



What about this?
https://www.herald.ie/news/cash-scandal-credit-union-employee-won-a-car-in-rigged-draw-35177262.html

Was that mentioned in the report?


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## Monbretia (9 Mar 2018)

I know in my local one staff or directors can't enter the car draw but they can participate in the draw at the AGM.  Basically it's just tickets handed out at the door and as most staff attend then you could have 30/40  or so of the 150 average attendance being staff.  There are usually 10 prizes of €100 each so odds are good that some staff will win, tickets are drawn by audience and they are the basic books of paper tickets you'd buy anywhere so no chance of a fiddle.


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## dereko1969 (9 Mar 2018)

This is sadly just another example of click-bait journalism, headlines generate clicks generate google ad revenue. The Story underneath the headline doesn't matter, rather pathetic really.


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## newirishman (9 Mar 2018)

I find it really strange that credit union staff is actually allowed to participate. Every company I have worked with so far has always excluded staff (and often even extended to spouses and kids!) when running any public prize draws. 
A simple way to avoid such headlines.


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## Sunny (9 Mar 2018)

dereko1969 said:


> This is sadly just another example of click-bait journalism, headlines generate clicks generate google ad revenue. The Story underneath the headline doesn't matter, rather pathetic really.



To be fair, it probably had more to do with how the Central Bank reported it to the media. All the media carried the same angle. Not like they had journalists working on it. They were probably just reporting a press release from the Central Bank and didn't look into it. Surprised none of the papers thought the figure looked a bit mad but I guess that is modern journalism. Copy and paste for a lot of the stories.


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## RedOnion (9 Mar 2018)

I agree @Brendan Burgess  but even the CBI report itself is slightly misleading.

When you read the detail, it's in  30% of CU's, staff have won a prize, plus 30% of directors (they were separate questions).
If it's not the same CUs in each case, we could be talking about up to 60% if we really wanted sensational headlines!


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## Brendan Burgess (9 Mar 2018)

Sunny said:


> To be fair, it probably had more to do with how the Central Bank reported it to the media.



Sunny, I don't think that this from the CB is in any way unclear - granted you have to think about it for a few seconds. 

"In approximately 30% of credit unions who operate prize draws, staff and directors have won prizes over the period
October 2014 to March 2017."

I am surprised that they all got it wrong. Does it suggest that there was some briefing from the Central Bank? I am told that there wasn't. 

Brendan


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## peemac (9 Mar 2018)

figure is actually quite small and theorectically could be miniscule

46% hold draws
85% of them allow staff enter
30% of that figure, a staff member won a prize over a 2.5 year period

so in 12% of credit unions a staff member won a prize in a draw they entered at some stage over a 2 1/2 year period.

Most draws are monthly, so the figure could come down to the headline "Less than 0.5% of credit union staff win a prize draw prize"

But would anyone read such a story?


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## RedOnion (9 Mar 2018)

peemac said:


> But would anyone read such a story?


I barely even read your post...


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## Brendan Burgess (9 Mar 2018)

The 6 1 News Headline said that they won " a lot of the big prizes" 

But there is no distinction in the Central Bank's report between small and large prizes.

Brendan


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## STEINER (9 Mar 2018)

All shareholders of any particular credit union are members and these draws are for the members.  Most staff and directors are members and as such would be entitled to be included in a draw.  In my own CU you can choose to enter the draw or not each year, which costs a small amount to enter.  I am surprised that these draws had no independent oversight in many cases, we have been looking at the Lotto on TV for years with the independent adjudicator.


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## Leper (10 Mar 2018)

Great to see a tax free bonus scheme type in operation for the staff and management and like most other bonus schemes is sponsored by the customers. And I believed all my credit union branch staff were volunteers working for free. Coincidentally, my nearby GAA club has a raffle for All Ireland Final tickets yearly and guess what? - the same people win every year. But, of course, the profit contributes to the under-age section. 

Do Credit Unions and sporting clubs think they are the banks?


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## Brendan Burgess (10 Mar 2018)

Leper said:


> Great to see a tax free bonus scheme type in operation for the staff and management and like most other bonus schemes is sponsored by the customers.



Did you actually read the thread? 

There is nothing untoward here except perhaps in the reporting of the story.

Brendan


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## Leper (10 Mar 2018)

Of course there's nothing untoward. Please read my text. It is always the customer who pays for everything.


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## llgon (10 Mar 2018)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Staff and directors in 30% of 128 credit unions won prizes - so that would be 38 prizes in total (assuming only one win in each credit union.)
> 
> So the right summary would be  c.1% of prizes were won by credit union staff and directors?



Hi Brendan,

A lot of the figures mentioned in this thread are based on the assumption of one win for staff and directors in each Credit Union. Do we know that this is a reasonable assumption to make? It would also need to be checked whether these wins were distributed as expected between the bigger and smaller prizes.


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## Brendan Burgess (10 Mar 2018)

llgon said:


> A lot of the figures mentioned in this thread are based on the assumption of one win for staff and directors in each Credit Union.



Hi ligon

I covered that here: 



Brendan Burgess said:


> So the right summary would be c.1% of prizes were won by credit union staff and directors?
> 
> All the draws are probably not monthly.
> In some Credit Unions, the staff probably won more than once.
> In 15% of Credit Unions, the staff were not allowed enter.



The key point is that the suggestion that the staff won 30% of the prizes or 30% of the big prizes is unfounded. 

Instead of winning 1 in 3, they probably won about 1 in 500. 

There is nothing in the Central Bank survey to suggest anything untoward happened.  There is no reason to believe in any widespread dishonesty, but of course, it may have happened in isolated cases such as Rush.

Brendan


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## llgon (10 Mar 2018)

Brendan Burgess said:


> There is nothing in the Central Bank survey to suggest anything untoward happened.



I disagree with this point. I think the suggestion is certainly there and there isn't enough information to show there wasn't anything untoward. The fact that staff and directors took part and the issue of independent scrutiny leave questions to be answered.

I fully agree that there is no evidence of wrongdoing and that the reporting has been extremely inaccurate.


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## gahfan (11 Mar 2018)

Rush credit union spent a load of money on cars but there was no evidence of cars purchased


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