# Protecting my finances and getting married



## grimfandango (12 Jun 2020)

I would like to marry my partner however I have already been through one relationship split that weighed heavily on my finances.  Luckily in that instance we weren't married.  I would like to protect myself in future.  I'm aware pre-nuptual agreements don't have any basis in law in Ireland so I am wondering what other options do I have.  I have a lot to lose (house, savings, pension etc) whereas my partner has nothing to lose.

I'm sad that I'm even thinking like this (and I'm sure people will tell me I'm being selfish) but I saw first hand how people can turn when things go wrong.


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## Thirsty (12 Jun 2020)

grimfandango said:


> I have a lot to lose.....


so don't get married if that's how you feel.


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## The Horseman (12 Jun 2020)

grimfandango said:


> I would like to marry my partner however I have already been through one relationship split that weighed heavily on my finances.  Luckily in that instance we weren't married.  I would like to protect myself in future.  I'm aware pre-nuptual agreements don't have any basis in law in Ireland so I am wondering what other options do I have.  I have a lot to lose (house, savings, pension etc) whereas my partner has nothing to lose.
> 
> I'm sad that I'm even thinking like this (and I'm sure people will tell me I'm being selfish) but I saw first hand how people can turn when things go wrong.


If you cohabit your partner can make a claim on your assets.

In the eyes of the law they are your common law husband/wife.


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## Introuble83 (12 Jun 2020)

grimfandango said:


> I would like to marry my partner however I have already been through one relationship split that weighed heavily on my finances.  Luckily in that instance we weren't married.  I would like to protect myself in future.  I'm aware pre-nuptual agreements don't have any basis in law in Ireland so I am wondering what other options do I have.  I have a lot to lose (house, savings, pension etc) whereas my partner has nothing to lose.
> 
> I'm sad that I'm even thinking like this (and I'm sure people will tell me I'm being selfish) but I saw first hand how people can turn when things go wrong.


If she is full aware of the extent of your wealth I don’t see much you can do. Maybe get advise from a divorce lawyer.


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## Leper (13 Jun 2020)

Hi Grimfandango, You've been hurt and it's obvious the hurt is continuing, but look at it this way (please don't think I'm belittling your situation) it's only money that you've lost. I don't care what amount, or what you did to earn it, at the end of the day it's only money. 

I know the title of this forum is Askaboutmoney, but there are far more important things. What's in the past, leave it there, otherwise you'll tie yourself up inside.


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## NewEdition (13 Jun 2020)

Similar situation here.. I was married before and lost a lot in the divorce.
10 years on, I am back on my feet, I have a house, savings etc.
Have been seeing somebody a few years that is renting, low paid and has a kid from her previous marriage.
I have exactly the same concerns as the poster.
My choices are to not take the relationship forward to the next step and risk break up and becoming old and single.
Or risk moving her in and if things go wrong, risk losing half my wealth.
She does not know my true financial situation and to "be honest" I would probably not tell her until many more years into the relationship.
Having been through divorce and massive financial loss before, it is a really tough choice! I dont know what I will do either but will be certainly watching out for the replies on this post!


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## Gordon Gekko (13 Jun 2020)

Putting excess wealth into a discretionary trust might make sense.


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## Thirsty (13 Jun 2020)

NewEdition said:


> She does not know my true financial situation and to "be honest" I would probably not tell her until many more years into the relationship


And people wonder how they end up in Family Law Courts.


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## Sunny (13 Jun 2020)

Lads seriously. If you that reluctant to trust your partners after going through a divorce, then either end the relationships or get counselling to deal with it.  But lying, hiding stuff and mis trusting each other will kill the relationship and will just lead to more misery.


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## Early Riser (13 Jun 2020)

Thirsty said:


> And people wonder how they end up in Family Law Courts.



People end up in the Family Law Courts for myriads of reasons.


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## Early Riser (13 Jun 2020)

Fortunately I do not have first hand experience, but having witnessed close up the destructive effects (emotional and financial) of an acrimonious divorce, I can understand the posters' concerns. I have no idea as to how their personal affairs can be set up to protect against the more egregious financial outcomes, but I would suggest that any proposals need to be shared now with prospective future partners. If you are seriously considering marriage then the relationship needs to be strong enough to discuss your hesitancy now and share openly any protective plan you are considering. This may make or break - but surely this is the best stage for that?

Also, most relationships do not end in this kind of disaster (even if they should break down). So lightning is unlikely to strike twice.


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## Thirsty (13 Jun 2020)

Early Riser said:


> So lightning is unlikely to strike twice.


hm...wouldn't be too sure.









						The High Failure Rate of Second and Third Marriages
					

Why are second and third marriages more likely to fail?




					www.psychologytoday.com
				




Anyway to answer the OPs question, the best way to protect your (perceived) wealth is to keep it all to yourself and not share anything. 

However, as my Mother would say, there's no pockets in a shroud.


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## Early Riser (13 Jun 2020)

Thirsty said:


> hm...wouldn't be too sure.



Point-scoring (by quoting out of context, or otherwise) might be another reason some couples end up in the Family Law Courts.



Early Riser said:


> Also, most relationships do not end in this kind of disaster* (even if they should break down)*. So lightning is unlikely to strike twice.


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## elcato (14 Jun 2020)

This will probably sound harsh but if I scalded my hand by dipping it into hot water I would not do it a second time. Always amazed me about all those people advocating to allow divorce in Ireland back in the day, went straight out and got married again as soon as they could. I think the OP is spot on with his concerns just a pity there is very little they can do to try and sort it out.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (14 Jun 2020)

elcato said:


> Always amazed me about all those people advocating to allow divorce in Ireland back in the day, went straight out and got married again as soon as they could.



No.

Ireland still has a very low divorce and remarriage rate.

I have in-laws who finally divorced after 17 years separation. Where else would you find that?


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## Sunny (15 Jun 2020)

elcato said:


> This will probably sound harsh but if I scalded my hand by dipping it into hot water I would not do it a second time. Always amazed me about all those people advocating to allow divorce in Ireland back in the day, went straight out and got married again as soon as they could. I think the OP is spot on with his concerns just a pity there is very little they can do to try and sort it out.



Using that logic, why would you dip your hand in hot water the first time? Not like the fact that finances are shared when you get married or in long term relationship are a surprise to anyone. If people can't accept that, then maybe they need to decide that a single life is best for them and there is nothing wrong with that. There are always special websites and places to visit where you can spend your money if you do get lonely and where the cost is clear upfront.


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## elcato (15 Jun 2020)

Sunny said:


> Using that logic, why would you dip your hand in hot water the first time?


No it's not anything like that. When they initially put the hand in it was nice and warm and felt good.


Sunny said:


> Not like the fact that finances are shared when you get married or in long term relationship are a surprise to anyone.


Again, everyone knows that. It's the aftermath when it has to be shared and how both parties perceive that is what the problem is.


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## Sunny (15 Jun 2020)

elcato said:


> No it's not anything like that. When they initially put the hand in it was nice and warm and felt good.
> 
> Again, everyone knows that. It's the aftermath when it has to be shared and how both parties perceive that is what the problem is.



It's the same water the 2nd time around as well. Feels just as good I am sure.  The water could end up scalding you first time, second time, third time. Everyone knows that. If they don't, they are not ready for marriage. I remember pre-marriage courses and money was the main discussion point as everyone knew it was the main area of conflict. There is no excuse for getting married with your eyes not wide open in this day and age. The law is very clear. Especially when it comes to kids.

The idea that you can be married to someone and they don't know how rich you are or you are hiding money from or you are suspicious of your wife's motives around your money or you don't trust you wife is nonsensical. It is not a marriage. It is an one sided arrangement. It is disrespectful. If divorce has left you scarred and with those issues, then don't get married and potentially make another person's life miserable with your secrecy and mis-trust. Or else get help dealing with your concerns. Both as an individual or as a couple. And make a decision if you can move forward then.


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## elcato (15 Jun 2020)

And where is this Utopia you talk of Sunny ?


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## Sunny (15 Jun 2020)

elcato said:


> And where is this Utopia you talk of Sunny ?



What utopia? There are more happy marriages where couples are clear and happy to share everything including money than failed marriages where one person tries to screw another. You decide to get married, there are certain things that go with it. One of the things that goes is complete financial independence. You each made a commitment to each other. You dont want to that then that's ok. I have seen people get divorced. I have friends that have done it amicably and I have friends that spent thousands in legal fees just to ensure that their ex didnt get an extra 1000 because one person bought the top of the range oven out of their pay cheque. 

Divorce can be ugly. It can be costly. It can be stressful. The only way you can guarantee not to go through ut is not to get married. It's to not end up in a relationship with shared assets like houses. Its to not have a family. Going into a marriage lying about your finances and not trusting your partner will not save you from that.


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## michaelm (15 Jun 2020)

grimfandango said:


> I would like to marry my partner however . .


I think that unless you both go 'all in' you increase the chances that it will go wrong again.


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## NewEdition (15 Jun 2020)

But if 'all-in' is weighted 80/20% at that point.. and when it possibly comes to an unfortunate 50/50% cash-out, would you not regret hiding some of your wealth in advance??
I know I did!!
And I will next time.


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## RentingD (16 Jun 2020)

This is a bit of a depressing thread. 
Honestly if I felt I had to hide money in a marriage I would wonder if I should be getting married at all.


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## DeeKie (16 Jun 2020)

Of course there’s the question why get married? Continue as you are. It’s just a social construct. Shouldn’t matter if you are married or not.


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## Thirsty (16 Jun 2020)

I would generally agree with the above; but if there are children then protections like the family home for example are important.


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## ATC110 (16 Jun 2020)

"Rich *widows are the only secondhand goods that sell at first-class prices" Benjamin Franklin (* or widowers for equality purposes) 

This quote could not be more relevant. 

This dilemma is a genuine one for any prudent person and I fully agree with the concerns of grimfandango and NewEdition.

Due to the absurdity of prenuptial agreements not being legally recognised or a division of wealth based upon who acquired it in the event of a separation or divorce, proceed with caution.

Unless I meet someone with the same or more to lose than me I will not be cohabiting or marrying them. Another factor to consider is the continuing entitlement to a widows/widowers contributory pension if your ex-spouse predeceases you, which would be negated if you remarry or cohabit.


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## huskerdu (16 Jun 2020)

ATC110 said:


> "Rich *widows are the only secondhand goods that sell at first-class prices" Benjamin Franklin (* or widowers for equality purposes)
> 
> This quote could not be more relevant.
> 
> ...


Most honest tinder profile ever


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## Jim Stafford (16 Jun 2020)

grimfandango said:


> pre-nuptual agreements don't have any basis in law in Ireland


While pre-nupital agreements are not binding in this country, they can be heavily persuasive to a judge in a Separation or Divorce case if:


Both sides obtain legal advice on it
They make "proper provision" for the other party.
There are updated if children are born etc.
Jim Stafford


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## Laughahalla (16 Jun 2020)

This is not a good attitude going into a marriage. If you intend to get married you need to accept that you both now own each others assets and liabilities.
If you can't accept that then marriage may not be for you. You can't really get married to somebody if you don't accept it's an equal partnership.

I'd be staying single rather than think like that.


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## cremeegg (16 Jun 2020)

Laughahalla said:


> If you intend to get married you need to accept that you both now own each others assets and liabilities.



Absolutely agree with Laughahalla here, and we are talking about* children* not just stuff.


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## NewEdition (16 Jun 2020)

Sometimes you dont realiae the extent of the liability you have married until a number of years later.


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## Sunny (16 Jun 2020)

huskerdu said:


> Most honest tinder profile ever



I know. Man earning x amount looking for girl earning the same or more. If you earn less, that is ok but we will only be for fun. If you want commitment including cohabiting or marriage, you will need to provide a statement of means including all assets before entering into said commitment. If you meet the means test i.e. earn as much as me and promise never to do anything that might compromise your earning power like have babies etc, I will happily commit to a long life together (as long as you don't expect me to share more than 50%).


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## ATC110 (16 Jun 2020)

Sunny said:


> I know. Man earning x amount looking for girl earning the same or more. If you earn less, that is ok but we will only be for fun. If you want commitment including cohabiting or marriage, you will need to provide a statement of means including all assets before entering into said commitment. If you meet the means test i.e. earn as much as me and promise never to do anything that might compromise your earning power like have babies etc, I will happily commit to a long life together (as long as you don't expect me to share more than 50%).



Where does it say I'm a man or single?


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## ATC110 (16 Jun 2020)

huskerdu said:


> Most honest tinder profile ever



Are you just assuming I'm single or is there a coded message in my post which I've missed?


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## huskerdu (16 Jun 2020)

ATC110 said:


> Are you just assuming I'm single or is there a coded message in my post which I've missed?



Not very coded
"Unless I meet someone with the same or more to lose than me I will not be cohabiting or marrying them. "


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## ATC110 (16 Jun 2020)

huskerdu said:


> Not very coded
> "Unless I meet someone with the same or more to lose than me I will not be cohabiting or marrying them. "


Doesn't mean that I'm single; obviously


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## grimfandango (22 Jun 2020)

Laughahalla said:


> This is not a good attitude going into a marriage. If you intend to get married you need to accept that you both now own each others assets and liabilities.


It's horrible alright but I was burned so badly in the past, I find trusting a potential partner very difficult now.


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## Purple (23 Jun 2020)

Sunny said:


> I know. Man earning x amount looking for girl earning the same or more. If you earn less, that is ok but we will only be for fun. If you want commitment including cohabiting or marriage, you will need to provide a statement of means including all assets before entering into said commitment. If you meet the means test i.e. earn as much as me and promise never to do anything that might compromise your earning power like have babies etc, I will happily commit to a long life together (as long as you don't expect me to share more than 50%).


Though if they tick those boxes it could be bliss...


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## AndroidMan (5 Aug 2020)

The Horseman said:


> In the eyes of the law they are your common law husband/wife.



After how long would this actually apply out of interest?
A girlfriend of three months surely has no claim on my house if she moved in for a period of time?? If that was the case, surely it would be an industry!


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## House2020 (22 Aug 2020)

AndroidMan said:


> After how long would this actually apply out of interest?
> A girlfriend of three months surely has no claim on my house if she moved in for a period of time?? If that was the case, surely it would be an industry!


My understanding is that there is no common law wife /husband in ireland. Either you are married and have all the inheritance, tax rights etc that that entails or you are like two strangers living together and will have no rights?


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## AndroidMan (22 Aug 2020)

That contradicts the above completely.
So what is correct?


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## Pmc365 (22 Aug 2020)

*Civil Partnership and Certain Rights and Obligations of Cohabitants Act, 2010 confers rights on certain cohabiting couples*


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## Gordon Gekko (23 Aug 2020)

Certain rights are acquired under the above legislation after 5 years of cohabiting.

If you have material wealth and are concerned pre-marriage, as I highlighted months ago, settle assets into a discretionary trust.


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## Pmc365 (23 Aug 2020)

But is there not a one-off tax of ~6% and an annual tax thereafter on assets of most discretionary trusts. Who would be the trustees. Could you be both a trustee and an object of the discretionary trust. Legally the objects of a discretionary trust do not own the assets until an appointment made. It's about time pre nuptial contracts were afforded full recognition in Irish Law. I think I would then consider marriage myself in the full knowledge that I wouldnt be taken to the cleaners in the event of a subsequent divorce.


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## ATC110 (23 Aug 2020)

It'd be better to keep it simple - stay single until you meet someone with equal or higher net worth


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## AndroidMan (23 Aug 2020)

ATC110 said:


> It'd be better to keep it simple - stay single until you meet someone with equal or higher net worth


How long does one wait??


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## Introuble83 (23 Aug 2020)

A lot of jargon in this thread. Get a parent to open an account or use an existing account . Make cash lodgements never eft/ online . Obviously don’t tell your future spouse . Go about your business and get married . You will have savings outside of your married estate . Not a long term solution but I am not sure what kind of values your taking about .  Failing that either stay single or just be honest and share your wealth


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## Gordon Gekko (24 Aug 2020)

Pmc365 said:


> But is there not a one-off tax of ~6% and an annual tax thereafter on assets of most discretionary trusts. Who would be the trustees. Could you be both a trustee and an object of the discretionary trust. Legally the objects of a discretionary trust do not own the assets until an appointment made. It's about time pre nuptial contracts were afforded full recognition in Irish Law. I think I would then consider marriage myself in the full knowledge that I wouldnt be taken to the cleaners in the event of a subsequent divorce.



I’m not a lawyer, but as I understand it Discretionary Trust Tax can only arise if the settlor has died and the beneficiaries are adults...


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