# What is valid for deducting from Tenant's Deposit



## mkc (8 Aug 2008)

Hi,

I have a tenant that has just moved out of the house i am renting. I have not returned the deposit as I wished to inspect the property first. I have found every bit of kitchen ware, delf, bins etc are gone. A chair is broken and beds ruined that there only fit for dump. Is this normal wear and tear in the renting world or am i entitled to deduct some monies from the deposit.

regards.


----------



## clocon (8 Aug 2008)

*Re: What is valid for deducting from Tenants Depoist*

hi ya
i would keep the deposit but first have a read through your lease to familiarise yourslef again with it so you can quote from it but the bottom line is that the place should be returned in pretty much the same condition that you let it to tenants inthe first place. normal wear and tear to me is to have to repaint every so often and having to clean it and replace floor covering now and then . taking stuf from the apt and nor replacing it is stealing and you should refer to your inventory when discussing this.ive gotten tough on deposits recently as my husband was giving people back deposits and it was taking me the guts of a week to clean the palce which is just not on. ive had all sorts of stuff done to apt as well for example carpets removed???and one tenant brought in a condenser dryer and absolutely destroyed the place with mildew...its empty at the mo cos the last guy gave me 3 days notice (verbally and not even in writing) and still wanted deposit back??? so it was a straight up no to that.then the usual threatning me with solicitors letters etc...its amazing what we landlords have to put up with.ive had tenants ring me to ask would i help pay arears of ESB bills in their names?!?!etc etc etc i could go on for days and now to cap it all its lying empty cos the market is so slow. dont expect the tenant to accept straight off the bat that you wont return deposit. maybe you could negotiate a partial return of deposit but in fairness sounds like they werent the cleanest....


----------



## aircobra19 (8 Aug 2008)

*Re: What is valid for deducting from Tenants Depoist*

You should be able to turn around and rent it. Any expenses required to do this, are what I'd take out of the deposit. So cleaning things broken, damage to the walls doors etc. Major items missing. 

Exception to this, and I'd pay myself is general wear and tear would be if its a long time since its been painted and needs freshing up. Appliances that are old, or worn out for normal use. At the end of the day its a business so you expect some running costs.


----------



## prince2008 (9 Aug 2008)

*Re: What is valid for deducting from Tenants Depoist*

Just from a tenants point of view......

  I have rented a number of places over the years.  I have always left the house in spotless condition and have never broken anything or taken anything from the premises that are not mine.  I understand the previous landlords point of view if stuff is broken and stuff has been taken - fair play withhold some or part of the deposit.  

However, not once have I moved into a place that did not need to be thoroughly cleaned before I moved in.  I don't know if the landlords had deducted cleaning costs from the previous tenants but if so, they sure weren't spent on cleaning the premises for the next tenant.  Yet, when I move out of a place, I am expected to leave the place in perfect condition even though it wasn't when I moved in!!!

I have lived in one place for almost 4 years.  In this time, no maintenance has been done by the landlord whatsover.  Cream walls not painted in 4 years obviously get grubby, likewise for carpets etc - should my deposit be withheld just so the landlord can repaint the premises to let it out again?????


----------



## coolhandluke (9 Aug 2008)

*Re: What is valid for deducting from Tenants Depoist*



aircobra19 said:


> At the end of the day its a business so you expect some running costs.


 
Indeed,i would leave a house in a reasonably clean condition but you'd need'nt be expecting me to get the toothbrush out.If a landlord wants to get professional cleaners in thats his business.My last one tried to withold €200 for "cleaning" cos he couldn't find anything else wrong but very quickly handed it back when i said i'd take a case against him. I've nearly got to the stage where i want my deposit back, when i've handed over the keys and the place has been checked,because it's amazing the "issues" that can arise in the interim.Indeed as things tighten i can see this becoming worse.


----------



## aircobra19 (9 Aug 2008)

*Re: What is valid for deducting from Tenants Depoist*

Its common sense you should return it to as close as its original state as possible within reason. 

What you two are on about is a completely different scenerio and nothing to do with the OP question is it.


----------



## oceanclub (9 Aug 2008)

*Re: What is valid for deducting from Tenants Deposit*



> I don't know if the landlords had deducted cleaning


 
As far as I'm aware, deducting cleaning costs is illegal. 

From Threshold:

[broken link removed]



> The landlord may only keep some or all of the deposit to cover rent arrears or the costs of repairing any damage *above normal wear and tear*.


 
If any tenants have their deposits wholly or partially withheld illegally, they should contact Threshold (http://www.threshold.ie/).

P.


----------



## prince2008 (9 Aug 2008)

*Re: What is valid for deducting from Tenants Depoist*



aircobra19 said:


> Its common sense you should return it to as close as its original state as possible within reason.


 
If I left places in as close to the original state as possible, I'm sure not many landlords would give me my deposit back!!!!  Landlords seem to expect to rent out a place that isnt clean but still expect it to be spotless when you;re handing back the keys!!!

I'm not saying tenants should wreck places / take stuff that isn't theres when they leave but maybe they were just so annoyed with the landlord for some reason.

I've had an ex landlord ringing me abt 3 months after I left to ask me for money for fixing the washing machine as the new tenants were complaining it wasn;t working right.

I've had landlords that take more than a month to fix things like washing machines / showers etc (things you can't live without!)


----------



## aircobra19 (10 Aug 2008)

*Re: What is valid for deducting from Tenants Deposit*

Why are ye insiting on talking about a different subject (yourself) than the OP asked about.  This thread is not about bad landlords its about bad tenants. Lots of cleaning is beyond normal wear and tear. Some people live like slobs, and leave a horrendous mess behind.


----------



## Luternau (10 Aug 2008)

*Re: What is valid for deducting from Tenants Deposit*



mkc said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have a tenant that has just moved out of the house i am renting. I have not returned the deposit as I wished to inspect the property first. I have found every bit of kitchen ware, delf, bins etc are gone. A chair is broken and beds ruined that there only fit for dump. Is this normal wear and tear in the renting world or am i entitled to deduct some monies from the deposit.
> 
> regards.



Withhold an amount of money that is required to put the place, and you back where you should be-simple as that. That is what the deposit is for.

Renting in this country is becoming impossible-a lease is more binding on the landlord that the tenant, whereas it should be equally binding on both. For example a tenant can walk away from a lease for any reason -Landlords can only sever a lease for specific reasons. When leaving they think they can work off the deposit as last months rent, or fail to pay the last month, leave,  and you are left with no deposit. If damage is done or expense is incurred you are out of pocket. 

In any event, one month deposit is not sufficient to cover the capital risk that exists with any tenant using  equipment and furniture on loan to them.  In many countries in Europe its 3 months deposit, as is the notice period. Deposits do not go directly to the landlord-it goes into an interest bearing a/c -which neither party can access, until the tenancy ceases. Cleaning expenses are deductable from the deposit and that is proper order. While not wanting to offend people on here that are renting and decent caring people-many people think that because they do not own something they think they can abuse it, or treat it with less than the respect they would if they owned it.
As for notice -in Switzerland, you cannot vacate property in Aug or Dec, so notice must be given end of April or Aug, to leave End of July or Nov. These are traditionally months where its harder to rent due to hols-so the landlords are protected from valley periods at these times. When renting you are entitled to receive a spotlessly clean property and expected to return it as found. Marks to paint on walls are deductable from deposits-this is damage. The Swiss might have a reputation to be conservative-but their sytems are fair-and enforced equally so.
What hope of such fairness here? The PRtB are miles off the pace on such matters.


----------



## aircobra19 (10 Aug 2008)

*Re: What is valid for deducting from Tenants Deposit*

I know in some places in europe you rent unfurnished and the place is repainted white before you leave. So everyone get the place in the same condition and theres none of this messing around with needing to industrially clean a place or finding damage like holes in walls behind bits of furniture strategically placed. Or leaving behing a pile of junk for someone else to dispose off.


----------



## prince2008 (10 Aug 2008)

*Re: What is valid for deducting from Tenants Deposit*



Luternau said:


> When renting you are entitled to receive a spotlessly clean property and expected to return it as found.
> 
> 
> Marks to paint on walls are deductable from deposits-this is damage.


 

Show me one spotlessly clean property that is available on the rental market now!  Landlords should only expect to get a spotlessly clean apartment back if it was that way in the first place!

Marks to paint on walls are wear and tear and should not be classed as damage (depending on the marks obviously!!!).  Most rented accommodation in Ireland is painted standard cream/white.  I defy any person, even in there own home, that can keep cream/white walls 100% mark free for a period of a lease!!!  I'm talking the area around light switches etc etc - cream/ white walls get grubby!!!  To get this repainted for the next tenant should not be deducted from the deposit,  Likewise wear and tear on carpets / lino etc


----------



## aircobra19 (10 Aug 2008)

*Re: What is valid for deducting from Tenants Deposit*

What has any of that got to do with broken furniture and theft of propery?


----------



## S.L.F (10 Aug 2008)

*Re: What is valid for deducting from Tenants Deposit*



clocon said:


> the bottom line is that the place should be returned in pretty much the same condition that you let it to tenants in the first place.
> 
> Normal wear and tear to me is to have to repaint every so often and having to clean it and replace floor covering now and then.
> 
> ...



Sounds fair to me



prince2008 said:


> should my deposit be withheld just so the landlord can repaint the premises to let it out again?????



No I think redecorating is above and beyond what would be considered wear and tear



oceanclub said:


> As far as I'm aware, deducting cleaning costs is illegal.
> 
> From Threshold:
> 
> [broken link removed]



I read the link you posted I don't see it written anywhere that it is illegal for a LL to charge a bad tenant for cleaning up after them.

The only think I saw was



> 8. When you leave, your landlord must promptly return your deposit. The landlord may only keep some or all of the deposit to cover rent arrears or the costs of repairing any damage above normal wear and tear.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Bronte (11 Aug 2008)

*Re: What is valid for deducting from Tenants Deposit*

OP - everything you have descriped is not normal wear and tear and you can deduct same from deposit.  In case of any problems (tenant taking you to court for deposit) I'd take pictures of the damage.


----------



## bugler (11 Aug 2008)

*Re: What is valid for deducting from Tenants Deposit*

It's bizarre that they took the delph etc. Did they forget they gave you a deposit or something? 

Replace what's broken and missing with similar quality stuff from the deposit.


----------



## becky (11 Aug 2008)

*Re: What is valid for deducting from Tenants Deposit*

Find it strange that they took the delph. In relation to the bed - maybe its at the end of the road. Can't say I ever rented a house where I went 'Oh I'll really miss this bed'.

Must remind my landlord to get a new kettle and toaster in case he tries to get me to pay for it them I leave.


----------



## Welfarite (11 Aug 2008)

*Re: What is valid for deducting from Tenants Deposit*

It may be that the tenant was well aware that they would not be recieving any of the deposit back due to the damage done. Thhnej they decidied to take the delph, etc.. in a pathetic effort to "make up" the loss!


----------



## mkc (11 Aug 2008)

*Re: What is valid for deducting from Tenants Deposit*

hi,

thanks for all the replies. I have taken photos of the different items broken and the empty presses. It took 4 people a combined 24 hours to clean the house just to determine what needed to be done. The whole house requires painting, even rooms which were painted 18 months ago. The walls were so dirty they had to be re-painted. To me this is above normal wear and tear. I do agree with posters posyting from a tenants point of view. Rooms which have not been painted in a few years and require freshing up is normal wear and tear. 

I have decided to charge 50% of the cost for cleaning and painting and 100% for breakages and the cost of replacing missing items. I think this is fair.


----------



## S.L.F (11 Aug 2008)

*Re: What is valid for deducting from Tenants Deposit*



mkc said:


> hi,
> 
> thanks for all the replies. I have taken photos of the different items broken and the empty presses. It took 4 people a combined 24 hours to clean the house just to determine what needed to be done. The whole house requires painting, even rooms which were painted 18 months ago. The walls were so dirty they had to be re-painted. To me this is above normal wear and tear. I do agree with posters posyting from a tenants point of view. Rooms which have not been painted in a few years and require freshing up is normal wear and tear.
> 
> I have decided to charge 50% of the cost for cleaning and painting and 100% for breakages and the cost of replacing missing items. I think this is fair.



You will need receipts for all the work you have done other wise they could and will contest it.

You do have 1 problem regarding buying new stuff to replace old you are not replacing like for like, so they could argue you are doing better out of the deal.

At least if you do it 100% for cleaning and painting and skip with receipts.

Then 50% for all the new stuff and since all your stuff was old (not new) anyway, you get your property with a complete new fit out for half the price.

Best of all you can use the receipts against your tax.


----------



## jackbetal (28 Aug 2008)

*Re: What is valid for deducting from Tenants Deposit*

Another quick point that you might have overlooked. You should also charge for the electricity etc. used during the time to get the place up to scratch due to the tenants fault. And of course the rent you are loosing because it is not ready.
But do be fair. Try to look at it from a tenants point of view also and do not use a tenants deposit to freshen a place up where required because of everyday wear and tear.


----------



## MrMan (28 Aug 2008)

*Re: What is valid for deducting from Tenants Deposit*

Keep the entire deposit the do not have any comeback and as another poster suggested they prob know this hence the missing delph, could be worse i know a landlord that had his tenants take the beds.


----------



## MrMan (28 Aug 2008)

*Re: What is valid for deducting from Tenants Deposit*



> But do be fair.


 I wouldn't be fair with thieves.


----------



## Bronte (29 Aug 2008)

*Re: What is valid for deducting from Tenants Deposit*

You cannot deduct rent due to time spent cleaning and electricity is going overboard.  OP what you have suggested is fair.  To the new versus old argument, how do you buy a one year old kettle or 18 month old delph?  Mrman it's amazing what tenants will take, I laughed about the beds, and tenants wonder why rented property doesn't have expensive furniture or new beds, but conversly you can have great tenants, my last great tenants left after 5 years and there wasn't a single solitary item of delph/cutlery/kettle/brush/bin in the kitchen but I didn't charge them anything as they had been great tenants.


----------



## Speedwell (29 Aug 2008)

*Re: What is valid for deducting from Tenants Deposit*

Bronte



> my last great tenants left after 5 years and there wasn't a single solitary item of delph/cutlery/kettle/brush/bin in the kitchen but I didn't charge them anything as they had been great tenants.


 
I do not see how you can consider people "great tenants" when they took all your stuff? 

That to me is stealing......


----------



## Bronte (29 Aug 2008)

*Re: What is valid for deducting from Tenants Deposit*



veron01 said:


> Bronte
> 
> 
> I do not see how you can consider people "great tenants" when they took all your stuff?
> ...


  They paid their rent on time, stayed long term, asked for nothing, did no damage and to replace those items would be of no great cost and in any case they would have been older than 5 years and needed replacing.  It was a couple who split up and I believe they had used some of their own stuff and got confused about who owned what and it was not done deliberately.  It's not like they took a cooker/bed/microwave etc.  I'm not the type to be counting how many cups are broken.


----------



## spreadsheet (29 Aug 2008)

*Re: What is valid for deducting from Tenants Deposit*

Is it normal for a landlord to supply delph? 
How long were the tenants there? 
And are the beds destroyed or just the matresses?

IMHO, if I was renting somewhere for 12 months (which is the general minimum) i'd expect new matresses at the very least. 

I haven't rented in a long time so I could be completely out of touch!


----------



## MrMan (29 Aug 2008)

*Re: What is valid for deducting from Tenants Deposit*



spreadsheet said:


> Is it normal for a landlord to supply delph?
> How long were the tenants there?
> And are the beds destroyed or just the matresses?
> 
> ...


Yes you should supply delph. New mattresses every 12 months isn't sustainable.


----------



## suimhneach (29 Aug 2008)

*Re: What is valid for deducting from Tenants Deposit*

i need to jump on this thread i need a bit of advice, we are living in rented accomodation for the past 3 years, my landlady lives in antother part of the contry, we live in very small rural community, with less than zero options of other houses to rent in the area.  

Anyways the landlady is not registered, i knew that from the start and accepted it out of desperation and needing a place to live, anyways in the past 3 years she has dont no maintenance apart from asking her cousin who lives locally to cut the grass two summers ago.  now the grass is at window level and no mention of anyone cutting it. But thats only the tip of the ice berg can live with that.

she came around when we first moved in and said the fence needed to be repaired she would get someone to do that ( in fact there is no fence just a few posts rest has rotted away) and that she would fix the shed door, but since then we now know the house is full of damp. the pipes outside the kitchen window where the kitchen water goes out was blocked up and been like that for years it runs out on street. Then we discovered the washing maching (which is in the shed) the waste water from that was been pumped into the same drain under the kitchen window, the smell in the summer was like poison. So we cut the pipe and let it run off out the back garden, the man hole covers had rusted away and were never replaced at the back of the house.  Every bloody room in the house is damp and there are gusts of wind coming in every window.  There is only one door on the house that opens, she lost the key to the other years ago and never bothered changing it. 

To top it all off the lock on the door was dodgy, got my key stuck in it during the week and i snapped the key in two trying to get it out. so now i cannot lock the door, which is not good when we are out working all day.  They type of door is the old think its alimiun doors they came before the pvc and had a friend look at it and he says cannot get this type of lock anymore, my main question is would anyone know if i can get this type of lock anymore "zone" is written on the lock thats the extent of my knowledge, 

I know this post is long and not to the point and full of punctuation and spelling errors, but for the past few days i have been climbing in and out throught the feckin window so pleas cut me some slack.​


----------



## spreadsheet (29 Aug 2008)

*Re: What is valid for deducting from Tenants Deposit*



MrMan said:


> Yes you should supply delph.


I see. Fair enough then.



MrMan said:


> New mattresses every 12 months isn't sustainable.


I was under the impression tenants stay for around an average of 3 years (nothing to back this up, just out of my head). Thats why I was wondering how long the previous tenants were there and if it was just the matresses rather than the beds which were 'ruined'.  I agree that changing them every 12 months is too much to ask, but i'd imagine most landlords don't have that that constant turnaround of tenants every year. I could be wrong!


----------



## Bronte (29 Aug 2008)

*Re: What is valid for deducting from Tenants Deposit*



spreadsheet said:


> Is it normal for a landlord to supply delph?
> How long were the tenants there?
> And are the beds destroyed or just the matresses?
> 
> ...


 Delph is normal to supply but becoming less so, just so you know the most expensive part of the bed is the mattress, bases cost very little.  In general therefore replacing the mattress is just the same as replacing the whole thing.  My tenants have asked for new mattresses, they got new matress covers instead.  In Ireland having a tenant for longer than 1 year would be (in my opinion) long term.   There is a cost to getting rid of the mattress as well.  One of my latest tenants who signed a one year lease, asked for the new mattresses, lost their job (good job) after 3 months due to a downturn and headed back to the East, good thing I didn't put in a new mattress and so much for having a lease/deposit in those situations.


----------



## aircobra19 (29 Aug 2008)

*Re: What is valid for deducting from Tenants Deposit*



suimhneach said:


> i need to jump on this thread i need a bit of advice, we are living in rented accomodation for the past 3 years, my landlady lives in antother part of the contry, we live in very small rural community, with less than zero options of other houses to rent in the area. ....​


 
You need to start your own thread & Move house.​


----------



## MrMan (29 Aug 2008)

> i need to jump on this thread i need a bit of advice, we are living in rented accomodation for the past 3 years, my landlady lives in antother part of the contry, we live in very small rural community, with less than zero options of other houses to rent in the area.



If you have transport the only option you have in my opinion is look for accommodation in the nearest town/village. Your landlady wont start co-operating now and a lock in your door wont fix the multitude of problems that you are facing.


----------



## S.L.F (30 Aug 2008)

*Re: What is valid for deducting from Tenants Deposit*

Bad landlords are not to be tolerated in this day and age.

You have rights and you should stand up for yourself

suimhneach if I was you I'd go to the PRTB and complain, the fact that you knew she was not registered with them is immaterial.

The PRTB is for tenants rights and they should have a field day with her, if she's not paying tax then she'll have someone else to deal with too.


----------



## PaddyW (2 Sep 2008)

I can see peoples views on bad tenants, but try this on for size.

When myself and my sister moved into the house we previously rented, it took a good two weeks for us to properly clean the house from the state it was in. During our six years there, we asked the landlord to buy paint and we painted the house inside for him (saving him hundreds in labour no doubt). The room which I was in was constantly cold, so got my dad to put insulation into it, which stopped all the drafts etc. coming into the room. When we left the house, the overall appearance of the house had improved, it was 50 times cleaner and in a far better condition then when we moved in. We had also looked after the gardens, as the landlord never once offered to do anything to them, even after we asked him to. 

On the last day, as we were packing up and in his presence, one of the pieces of furniture which we were taking with us (our own, not his) fell against a door, causing a hole, approximately 6"x6" in one of the doors (whcih was made from pretty cheap wood anyway) and he dually deducted €200.00 from our deposit.

Fair? I think not. Inside the terms of our contract, damage to fittings, yes. Perhaps it should be written into contracts that if a tenant leaves a property in a far better condition than when they moved in, that any minor damages (6"x6" is minor in my opinion) can be written off against the expense they saved when tenants cleaned the house from top to bottom for the LL?


----------



## aircobra19 (2 Sep 2008)

Theres a flaw in your logic. What expense? House wasn't clean when you rented it so its obvous (along with the rest of your tale) that the landlord spends nothing on the house. So theres nothing to write off the €200 against. It makes no sense to me to rent a house that you need to then refurbish at your own expense. 

Rather than adding a load of highly subjective clauses in a contract, that are impossible to enforce, is it not a lot simpler to just not rent the house which would force the landlord to maintain the house to a reasonable standard.


----------

