# Are these solicitor's fees reasonable?



## Amazon (13 Feb 2010)

I was involved in a RTA in 2008. The other driver (and his insurers) are on record that liability is not an issue. I suffered a severe whiplash injury and unfortunately the symptoms are still ongoing. I had an MRI recently which confirmed that the ongoing symptoms are due to soft tissue injuries only.

I delayed the application to PIAB because the symptoms were still ongoing. The other party's insurers were anxious to settle the case, and made a fairly paltry offer. I declined it. They then came back with a final offer, which I still wasn't happy with, and sought the advice of a solicitor. What I wanted was a one-off consultation for advice on how I should proceed and what the claim might be worth.. This solicitor was recommended to me by my family. He is solicitor for my grandfather and my aunts. This solicitor has known my grandfather all his life and my grandfather assured me that the solicitor "would look after me." Unfortunately, totally through by own lack of assertiveness, I got steamrolled into taking on his services for the purpose of settling the claim.

He has arranged for me to see the local consultant rheumatologist and he has filled out the PIAB application form for me. He has sent a few letters to myself, the consultant and the other party's insurers. The insurance company are happy to trade medical reports etc. with him and have been co-operative.

On Friday I got a letter from him proposing his fee. €2,500 plus VAT plus €250 for postal costs. Up to now he has been very vague on how much his services were going to cost me. He simply told me that if the case is settled through PIAB that I would have to pay my own legal costs, but not if the case goes to court. I can't see how the case will go to court though - it is straightforward. I do think at our first meeting he mentioned "a couple of hundred euro" if the case wasn't going to court i.e. settled quickly.

While I understand this fee is well within normal range for this kind of work, I am aghast as I believe the value of the claim itself will be relatively small and therefore this €3,000 odd euro is a very substantial "cut" for the solicitor.

Any thoughts? Can I negotiate with him on price?


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## mercman (13 Feb 2010)

Surely when the insurers go to to settle the claim, and an offer is made, make any offer conditional plus the legal fees and out of pocket expenses you have incurred.


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## Amazon (13 Feb 2010)

Well the application is gone to PIAB now so unless PIAB decide the case should go to court, the case will be settled by PIAB, in which case I must pay my own legal fees? I can't see the respondents' insisting that the case be settled in court.

Is there any reason the respondents would prefer to settle directly, and more quickly, than using PIAB? Even if they do make a generous offer in the short term, I can't see how I can expect them to cover my legal fees?


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## onq (13 Feb 2010)

This sounds utterly disgraceful.

The following is an off-the-cuff comment from a legal layperson, not an expert and I may be wrong.

Why are you afraid of going to court - haven't you got the respondents on the ropes with an admission of liability?
The respondents have played the fool with paltry offers and now your solicitor is screwing you for fees if its goes to PIAB?
Unless you're getting €30K I'd be very tempted to make a personal injuries claim and wipe the floor with them - you're suffering!
Turn it back on the solicitor and say it needs to go to court now, because you're not paying him three grand out of your own pocket.

Oh, and I'd remove those relations who walked you into this from the Chrissie card list.
AND I'd get a second opinion if yer maun didn't want to go to court.
But that's just me.

ONQ.


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## Amazon (14 Feb 2010)

The solicitor advised me that regardless as to whether the case is settled by PIAB or it goes to court, that I should lodge an application with PIAB asap because of the statute of limitations.

I'm not afraid of going to court, but the case has to go through PIAB first, unless the respondents decide to settle by making a more generous offer. I don't know how likely that is. 

If PIAB suggest a figure, and I don't agree with it, then I can go to court. But if the judge suggests a lower figure than that suggested by PIAB, then I could end up not only paying my own legal fees but the respondents', too!

My own ballpark estimate of what the claim is worth is less than €30k, but then, what do I know? All I know is I'm hoping to use the money to go back to college to gain a qualification, and every penny counts. And seeing as it's coming on two years after the accident and I'm still in pain and discomfort most days, I think I deserve fairness in all of this. 

Thanks for the feedback!


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## MandaC (14 Feb 2010)

Get your application into PIAB as soon as possible.  

As you know, you have to go through PIAB and after this, if you do not agree with what is offered, you have an issue of Court.  PIAB hava year, I think to resolve the issue and the idea behind it is that it was to reduce solicitors fees.

Insurance Companies will always try to settle initially with a paltry sum, they are just playing the game in the hope that you accept.

Ask him for a breakdown of fees.


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## MOB (15 Feb 2010)

Amazon said:


> I was involved in a RTA in 2008. The other driver (and his insurers) are on record that liability is not an issue.



Are you 100% sure of that?  In my experience, insurance companies will usually ( almost always) mark all such correspondence as being "without prejudice", which means that it is not on record and cannot be relied upon.



Amazon said:


> The other party's insurers were anxious to settle the case, and made a fairly paltry offer. I declined it. They then came back with a final offer, which I still wasn't happy with, and sought the advice of a solicitor. What I wanted was a one-off consultation for advice on how I should proceed and what the claim might be worth..



In such circumstances, I would have advised you that the insurance company were likely to continue to low-ball you if they thought that you were not legally represented.



Amazon said:


> He has arranged for me to see the local consultant rheumatologist and he has filled out the PIAB application form for me.



He may also have paid for the medical report ( it is not clear from your post if you paid for it yourself). He has also put his PI insurance on the line.    If there is a problem or defect in the PIAB claim form, it is now his problem.  Prior to this it would have been yours.  These things do happen.  I just had a client in to me at Christmas with a PIAB 'Authorisation' to bring his claim to court.  Unfortunately, the 'Authorisation' names the wrong defendant and is useless.  If he had left it another month before coming to see me, his claim would be gone - and this is a labouring man who can no longer work. 




Amazon said:


> He has sent a few letters to myself, the consultant and the other party's insurers. The insurance company are happy to trade medical reports etc. with him and have been co-operative.



Whenever someone says that their solicitor "sent a few letters" it can be taken as given that they do not value the service being rendered. 

You retained a solicitor to deal with this matter and you now regret that decision.  I think that when the claim is finished, you will probably be happy that you had a solicitor;

The solicitor's charges are, as you say, well within the normal range for this type of work.  Nevertheless, it is still true that you should have had these charges made clear at the earliest opportunity.  That is the only minus that I can see in the way that the solicitor has managed the thing.


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## lawrose (15 Feb 2010)

I can only echo MOB's post.

Amazon - you must lodge your PIAB application within two years of the accident - whether you have made a full recovery or not.  Once PIAB send you their assessment of what your claim is worth, you can then discuss it with your solicitor to decide whether it is adequate.  At this point (usually one year after you applied to PIAB), you may have a better idea of your recovery or any further and ongoing issues which have presented.

If, on your solicitor's advice, you decide not to accept the assessment, you will receive an Authorisation from PIAB and your solicitor will proceed to issue court proceedings on your behalf.  Generally most of the legal fees for the court part will be sought from the defendants.  However, your solicitor is likely to still seek fees from your final court award to cover the PIAB work.

Without knowing the whole history of your case (although I note you don't believe it to be worth €30k), I have to say that I think €2,500 plus VAT plus €250 postage sounds a bit high.  I don't usually charge anywhere near that sum myself TBH.  I always tell my clients at the outset that they will be liable to pay their own legal costs for the PIAB element of a case - often it IS difficult to estimate how much you will charge but I usually give a ballpark estimate of, say, €1,300 to €1,500 plus VAT.  If at any stage during a case the work involved is significantly more than expected, I will discuss same with the client and revise my quote accordingly.  Usually though I find that my "ballpark" quote covers any unexpected or increased work.  I try as often as possible to ensure it stays towards the lower end of the figures quoted.

Best of luck with your case.  Make sure that the PIAB claim goes in asap!  And don't be afraid to speak to the solicitor about costs.....


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## Amazon (15 Feb 2010)

MOB said:


> Are you 100% sure of that?  In my experience, insurance companies will usually ( almost always) mark all such correspondence as being "without prejudice", which means that it is not on record and cannot be relied upon.



Thanks for the feedback, MOB. Yep, liability is not an issue. The driver admitted liability, his insurers confirmed this, and my solicitor re-confirmed it. The driver drove into the back of me at speed on an open road- he said himself he thought he dozed off for a few seconds. I don't know how he could contest liability, under the circumstances. 





MOB said:


> In such circumstances, I would have advised you that the insurance company were likely to continue to low-ball you if they thought that you were not legally represented.



Totally agree and it is a point that my aunt raised; the settlement is now likely to be higher now than if I had pursued this without the help of a solicitor. So I am no worse off really than if I had taken the insurance company's best offer. 




MOB said:


> He may also have paid for the medical report ( it is not clear from your post if you paid for it yourself).



Yes he did, but I assume this will be subtracted from the settlement, when it is finalised. I also had to go for an MRI on the recommendation of that consultant, but paid for it myself. (Well actually, my VISA card paid for it!) I would have thought that my solicitor would cover the cost of this and reclaim it when the case was settled, but perhaps the solicitor usually only covers the cost of the medical report/reports - I don't know. 





MOB said:


> Whenever someone says that their solicitor "sent a few letters" it can be taken as given that they do not value the service being rendered.



Not in this case, although I do appreciate that people do gripe a lot about solicitors' charges. What they forget though is what you're really paying for is the solicitor's expertise, not the letters! I was trying to make the point that at this moment in time, my solicitor has had to do very little. Obviously if the case is not settled through PIAB and I need representation in court, I would expect to pay the kind of fee that has been suggested. But if the case is settled through PIAB, basically my solicitor's work is all but done at this point and he has been paid extremely handsomely for it! (And he really has only sent a few letters, LOL). 



MOB said:


> You retained a solicitor to deal with this matter and you now regret that decision.  I think that when the claim is finished, you will probably be happy that you had a solicitor;



I don't regret taking on the solicitor's help - I just wish he had clarified the cost sooner and that I hadn't been so naive! I do hope that at the end of the day I'll be happy with the outcome.


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## Robskiola (26 Feb 2010)

Not in this case, although I do appreciate that people do gripe a lot about solicitors' charges. What they forget though is what you're really paying for is the solicitor's expertise, not the letters! I was trying to make the point that at this moment in time, my solicitor has had to do very little. Obviously if the case is not settled through PIAB and I need representation in court, I would expect to pay the kind of fee that has been suggested. But if the case is settled through PIAB, basically my solicitor's work is all but done at this point and he has been paid extremely handsomely for it! (And he really has only sent a few letters, LOL). 


I think you've hit the nail on the head there. You paid for your solicitor's expertise. Law is complicated and expensive, even if it is just advising on settlements. If you visit a dentist or obtain the services of a plumber, you're going to be paying at least three hundred for the most menial of tasks. Instead you're being advised on the potentially awarding of costs that will might have a significant impact on your life. Suck it up and pay the man for doing his job. (Mind you I do think €2,500 is quite excessive. Between €1,200-€1,500 is more realistic.)


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## Amazon (26 Feb 2010)

Agree completely, thanks Robskiola. 

Spoke to my solicitor yesterday and he has agreed to reduce his fee to €1,750 + vat + €250 for post/phone outlays.

Feel a lot better about it now and happy to pay.


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## dublindublin (28 Feb 2010)

If you have legal expenses insurance from when you insured your car, surely that would cover any legal costs incurred from your solicitor?


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## Brendan Burgess (1 Mar 2010)

Hi DublinDublin

That is a very interesting point and worth researching. 

My initial view is that the legal fees cover in a person's motor policy would cover the costs of defending a claim against the insured.

It is unlikely to cover the cost of a claim by the insured against another driver.

Any motor insurance experts out there? 

Brendan


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## dmos87 (1 Mar 2010)

Amazon, I am in a freakishly similar situation, RTA in 2008. I'd love some advise too from the posters in here - PIAB have my claim over a year now. I was advised to get an MRI scan done back in December and an appointment was made for me by PIAB after a consultation with a PIAB doctor. (Never had one done at the time as no insurance and no savings - had blackout episodes). The appointment had to be changed 2 days beforehand and now I cant seem to get another one - they tell me the neurologist is only there one afternoon a week and is booked out until May(!) 

Is there any way I can get PIAB to hurry this on? Its been almost 2 years since the accident and I'm fed up of being sent from doctor to doctor by them. They have all my medical reports, physiotherapy receipts, etc. Its horrible having to be reminded of the crash every month or so with more appointments being asked the same questions and poked about my back.

My main problem is I feel my job is on the verge of going and money will be an issue for me if it does. Is it possible to ask my solicitor to try and settle now or do we have to continue down this path? He's a friend of my partners father and I feel embarrassed asking him straight out - I know he wants me to stick it out but I really am fed up and have outstanding debts from this accident. I just want things back to the way they were before.


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## a lawyer (3 Mar 2010)

dmos87

have a chat with your solicitor about when the piab assessment period is running from (this is the date that the insurers consented to the assessment going ahead)

from the sounds of it it's very unlikely piab could value the case without an MRI going ahead.  A neurologist wouldn't have been mentioned without good reason also.  They must be getting very close to the time limit by which the claim must be assessed (unless they have already sent a notification that they are going to give themselves further time from the initial 9 months - up to 6 months).

If PIAB can't value the case on present info it's very unlikely that your solicitor could settle the case at this point (or at the very least it would be difficult to do so without a serious risk of you accepting too little).

IMO you should hold on a bit longer to see what happens with PIAB process - it shouldn't take too much longer, and even if they can't assess the case at the very least if you do have an MRI scan carried out it will move things along.

best of luck


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## dmos87 (9 Mar 2010)

a_lawyer thanks for the advice  I'll pop him an email asking for dates etc. and I suppose if I pester the Neurologists office I might get a cancellation at some stage before May!!


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