# Garlic Scam



## DerKaiser (9 Mar 2012)

http://www.independent.ie/national-...r-six-years-over-garlic-tax-scam-3045619.html

Anyone find the severity of this sentence utterly shocking?

There needs to be punishment obviously, but this seems way OTT.


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## truthseeker (9 Mar 2012)

Yes, I agree thats its way OTT. 

Its my opinion that violent crime should hold the most severe sentencing.


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## Sunny (9 Mar 2012)

Does seem out of whack when you consider some sentences handed down. Having said that, it was deliberate tax evasion on a large scale. He knew what he was doing. We either take it seriously or we don't. I don't agree that people should be able to pay a fine and avoid a custodial sentence if caught.


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## micmclo (9 Mar 2012)

If you want to get the State angry then you cheat them out of taxes


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## Knuttell (9 Mar 2012)

> Dublin Circuit Criminal Court heard yesterday that the import tax on garlic is “inexplicably” high and can reach *232pc*.



Thats a ridiculous rate of tax and as such the sentence handed down was way ott,there are rapists and murderers out and about after 12 years.


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## RonanC (9 Mar 2012)

I dont get this at all. We hear in the news every few months of business men and women who make tax settlements with the Revenue Commissioners for tax evasion. Some huge amounts have been paid by very well known business people over the last few years.. Two men settled for more than €2m last December for failing to declare tax and for holding offshore accounts. They knew exactly what they were doing. They didnt see a day in jail though.


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## Ancutza (9 Mar 2012)

Ridiculously harsh sentence.


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## rustbucket (10 Mar 2012)

very harsh. considering he was already paying it back and cooperated fully with investigation. If he was a politician this would have been called the Garlic tribunal, would have cost the taxpayer circa 300 million euro and he wouldnt have seen a day in jail.

On another note, why is the tax on garlic so high?


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## Knuttell (10 Mar 2012)

rustbucket said:


> On another note, why is the tax on garlic so high?



Apparently its a form of trade protectionism,protecting Garlic coming out of Spain and Portugal EU countries,I would imagine what this fella was caught at is pretty wide spread circumvention of this crazy tax.


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## Duke of Marmalade (10 Mar 2012)

RonanC said:


> I dont get this at all. We hear in the news every few months of business men and women who make tax settlements with the Revenue Commissioners for tax evasion. Some huge amounts have been paid by very well known business people over the last few years.. Two men settled for more than €2m last December for failing to declare tax and for holding offshore accounts. They knew exactly what they were doing. They didnt see a day in jail though.


Good point.  I suppose there is something sneaky about calling Garlic Apples which respectable tax evading businessmen would never stoop to, nonetheless tax evasion is tax evasion and should be treated with a level hand.  Personally, I would put many more in jail rather than merely name and shame (and charge a penalty).


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## oldnick (10 Mar 2012)

For goodness sake this man is from a working class background and should be in jail.
Six years is not long enough  for a drug dealing rapist or whatever horrible crime he committed.

He's from a fruit-and-veg selling family from Tallaght and is not on the same level as bankers, financiers and judges who are all basically decent fellows.

The fact the family provide honest work for 200 people and that this evil criminal was noted for his charitable donations and that over the last two years he has being paying back the tax plus interest should not blind us to the fact that his was the most heinous of crimes - fiddling the garlic duty.


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## Knuttell (10 Mar 2012)

It is really galling isn't it,not one of those bankers that destroyed the State is within an asses roar of even appearing in a court,yet this fella is going to jail for 6 years for fiddling the tax to circumvent an absurd VAT rate on a container load of garlic.

There is no fairness in that at all.

None.


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## micmclo (10 Mar 2012)

Look at the bankers has become the most overused phrase around

Sure he's a grand lad, he's a saint compared to them bankers
Why go after me, go after the bankers instead. Don't jail me until you jail them


And where does it stop, do we convict nobody?
And why are people bringing murder and rape into this thread?

He's guilty, a crook and he was caught. And he won't come close to serving six years


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## Knuttell (10 Mar 2012)

micmclo said:


> Look at the bankers has become the most overused phrase around



Theres probably a pretty good reason for that don't you think?

Why after 5 years has the State not troubled itself to bring to account those involved in bankrupting the Country but can deal exceptionally efficiently with a tax dodger without connections or the right school tie...

Or have you missed both my point and the last 5 years?


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## micmclo (10 Mar 2012)

I was here alright and didn't miss the last five years but every case if different and every case should be judged on its own


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## Guest105 (10 Mar 2012)

micmclo said:


> I was here alright and didn't miss the last five years but every case if different and every case should be judged on its own




Ok the guy did wrong, he tried to fraud the state out of thousands of Euro, no doubt about it. He has got the punishment BUT can someone tell me why the likes of BERTIE, MOLLOY, FITZPATRICK et al are not in jail??????? It's a bizarre situation, they are responsible for bringing this country to its knees and there is no punishment for them except big pensions and million  euro payoff, a tad unfair in my honest opinion.


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## RonanC (10 Mar 2012)

cashier said:


> Ok the guy did wrong, he tried to fraud the state out of thousands of Euro, no doubt about it. He has got the punishment BUT can someone tell me why the likes of BERTIE, MOLLOY, FITZPATRICK et al are not in jail??????? It's a bizarre situation, they are responsible for bringing this country to its knees and there is no punishment for them except big pensions and million  euro payoff, a tad unfair in my honest opinion.



Because they havn't been charged or found guilty of anything... *YET*


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## Guest105 (10 Mar 2012)

RonanC said:


> Because they havn't been charged or found guilty of anything... *YET*



too true, maybe we are not far away from this little morsel

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/mar/05/trial-iceland-president-democracy-money


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## Black Sheep (11 Mar 2012)

I also think this sentence was way OTT. Why is this man been singled out as an example to others. Surely the punishment should fit the crime and has nothing to do with others.
He did wrong, he co-operated, he's paying what he owes so I don't understand why hammer him as well.
I certainly could not understand the judges comment, "he's a decent man, he gives to charity" and then give him six years. Sounds like speaking out of both sides of his mouth

Perhaps he should have called them bulbs not apples


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## Knuttell (11 Mar 2012)

Was Listening to the radio this morning apparently this is a new departure where tax dodgers and welfare cheats will be punished to the maximum allowable under law ie prison_ *un exemple pour les autres*_ if you will.

Thinking about it after hearing this,it really is kind of a no brainer,we just cannot afford welfare cheats or tax dodgers anymore and if the threat of prison deters them the so be it it and if they are not deterred and subsequently caught??good enough for them.


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## oldnick (11 Mar 2012)

Well, let's see then if ,really, the courts will punish other cheats to the extent that they have punished this man.  This would mean -if we want a comparison -life sentences for some of the worst offenders.

And talking about comparisons ....... In reply to micmlo's question -why bring rapists and muderers into this thread?  Simple, really - it was to highlight how ludicrous this justice system is that a garlic-tax evader gets the same sentence as thugs who commit horrendous crimes.


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## blueband (12 Mar 2012)

the only message it sends out is if you are cought do bother trying to pay back any money or coporate with revenue, it wont stand you anything!


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## werner (12 Mar 2012)

micmclo said:


> If you want to get the State angry then you cheat them out of taxes


 
Unless you are a corrupt----- politician, banker or a property developer !


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## werner (12 Mar 2012)

The state also deals very fast with very low level alledged fiddling social welfare recipients, obviously you need to be a corrupt politician, banker,developer to be shown due respect by the FG & Labour government i.e. left alone and unconvicted of anything tsk! tsk!


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## csirl (12 Mar 2012)

I think the sentence is justified - this guy has robbed everyone of us. The question is why other tax scammers like him dont get similar sentences? Here's to hoping that this sentence sets a new benchmark.


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## T McGibney (12 Mar 2012)

csirl said:


> I think the sentence is justified - this guy has robbed everyone of us. The question is why other tax scammers like him dont get similar sentences? Here's to hoping that this sentence sets a new benchmark.



The public outcry about the perceived severity of the sentence has all but ensured that the sentence is likely to be (at least) cut substantially on appeal, and not repeated in future cases. Many people support the principle of jailing tax evaders, but when an actual case presents itself, the public seems to have a distaste for jailing people for a tax offence.


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## ney001 (12 Mar 2012)

Disgraceful sentence considering he had already repaid a significant amount.  Claire Nolan killed a man, taking him away from a family because she was out of her head on drink and drugs but not so out of it that she forgot to destroy the evidence and she got the same sentence handed to her today!


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## Sunny (12 Mar 2012)

ney001 said:


> Disgraceful sentence considering he had already repaid a significant amount. Claire Nolan killed a man, taking him away from a family because she was out of her head on drink and drugs but not so out of it that she forgot to destroy the evidence and she got the same sentence handed to her today!


 
He repaid it because he was caught. Do you think he would have paid up if he hadn't been caught. Comparing it to sentences given for murder, manslaughter etc is ridiculous. Every crime has sentencing guidelines. This is the higher end for fraud/tax evasion but there is precedent. It's harsh given some other cases but I don't think it was ridiculous. We either start taking white collar crime seriously or we don't. Bleating on about bankers, developers etc is missing the point as well. This guy broke the law and he knew it. The only thing most bankers and developers are guilty of is greed and stupidity.


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## Leo (12 Mar 2012)

werner said:


> ... obviously you need to be a corrupt politician, banker,developer to be shown due respect by the FG & Labour government i.e. left alone and unconvicted of anything tsk! tsk!


 
What did the Government have to do with this trial?


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## blueband (12 Mar 2012)

Sunny said:


> He repaid it because he was caught. Do you think he would have paid up if he hadn't been caught. .


no, why would anyone want to pay up if they were not caught!


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## oldnick (12 Mar 2012)

todays news ....

 man raped his daughter for years - sentence SIX years

woman deliberately runs over man and crushes him to death - sentence - SIX years

Is there anyone out there who really believes six years was a fair sentence for garlic tax evasion?


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## Sunny (12 Mar 2012)

oldnick said:


> todays news ....
> 
> man raped his daughter for years - sentence SIX years
> 
> ...



I think 6 years for serious tax evasion worth over 1 million euro is fair. Garlic has nothing to do with it. Courts have to punish the offence as per the guidelines set down. If you think rapists and murderers deserve longer sentences, then argue that. Don't argue that someone who defrauded the taxpayer deserves a lesser sentence because they didn't rape or kill anyone.


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## oldnick (12 Mar 2012)

Fairness implies equal treatment, parity, or whatever the right word is.

In Ireland ,courts had out sentences of 6/7 years to killers and rapists (I forgot a third case today where a seven year old child was raped at knife point  and the rapist got seven years).
In Ireland,  I don't recall tax cheats getting off with anything but fines. I may be wrong about that. Certainly I can't recall long prison sentences for tax cheats.

To ignore all other sentences handed down in this state and to declare that this particular six year sentence is "fair" ignores reality.


I don't know anything about "guidelines "- are you suggesting that a guideline for rapists is 6/7 yrs and for a tax evader it's the same ? ( I'm not arguing -just asking.)

Finally ,maybe a trite point, whilst I accept the law's the law  there are sometimes rather silly laws - and the E.U. duty on nonEU imports of garlic are  really quite silly. Actually this law is depriving the consumer of cheaper prices for garlic .
 Yes, it should have been paid and the guy should receive some punishment -but the same punishment as brutal thugs committing unspeakable crimes?

Come on -we've moved on from 300 years ago when everyone got the same punishment whatever the crime.


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## Purple (12 Mar 2012)

Oldnick, I just logged on to make the points you made about the two 6 year sentences handed down today. 
Do remember though that the high duties he was evading are part of the bigger trade protections we have in place to ensure that EU farmers get above the real market rate for their produce and those in the developing world continue to starve... If that's not sending a man to prison for then what is?


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## amtc (13 Mar 2012)

I do understand that the judge had the requirement to impose a sentence (although I do not necessarily agree with it). However these were two sentences imposed consecutively, not concurrently, which seems harsh


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## blueband (13 Mar 2012)

maybe we should be asking about the 'state of mind' of the judge instead of the sentence he passed down!


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## Firefly (13 Mar 2012)

oldnick said:


> todays news ....
> 
> man raped his daughter for years - sentence SIX years
> 
> ...


 
I do, but I also think the first 2 above should be *life*.


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## dereko1969 (13 Mar 2012)

Tax evasion has always been implicitly condoned in this country and I'm delighted that this man has been handed down a severe sentence. This was no accidental decision, it was a calculated theft from the State going on over many many years. 
Can anyone provide proof he was passing on the lower prices to customers?

Bringing in sentences for other crimes into the discussion is not appropriate - those sentences were wrong and should have been much higher.


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## csirl (13 Mar 2012)

dereko1969 said:


> Tax evasion has always been implicitly condoned in this country and I'm delighted that this man has been handed down a severe sentence. This was no accidental decision, it was a calculated theft from the State going on over many many years.
> Can anyone provide proof he was passing on the lower prices to customers?
> 
> Bringing in sentences for other crimes into the discussion is not appropriate - those sentences were wrong and should have been much higher.


 
+ 1

Not many tax evaders get jail in this country. While I dont know the full history of the garlic fraud, it is fair to say that where custodial sentences are given, there is usually a long history of failure to cooperate, thumbing nose at authorities, ignoring warnings, contemptuous behaviour etc etc. I would guess that there is a long history attached to the garlic fraud that hasnt been made public.


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## NOAH (13 Mar 2012)

whats up with us? this guy cheated the country of tax, he was caught , good,  he gets a proper sentence,  good,  he or others wont do it again.  apparently emails were found where it was stated  garlic be  labelled as apples!!!!


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## blueband (13 Mar 2012)

i think he will get his sentence reduced when it goes to appeal, its getting way too much negative media


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## Sunny (13 Mar 2012)

blueband said:


> i think he will get his sentence reduced when it goes to appeal, its getting way too much negative media


 
Yeah that's way to run your justice system. I don't remember the uproar when the guy was given 12 years for social welfare fraud. What's the difference?

By the way the 12 year sentence was only reduced to 9 years.

[broken link removed]


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## Firefly (13 Mar 2012)

NOAH said:


> whats up with us? this guy cheated the country of tax, he was caught , good, he gets a proper sentence, good, he or others wont do it again. apparently emails were found where it was stated garlic be labelled as apples!!!!


 
+1 It's time to stamp this out for once and for all. I just hope that any former bankers under investigation will receive heavier sentences if and when they are tried.


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## orka (13 Mar 2012)

I'm glad he got a custodial sentence.  Until company directors perceive a real risk of jail time for corporate wrongdoings, they will keep running the risk of being caught because the upside is attractive and there is no personal downside - fines are not enough of a deterrant for white collar crimes where a fine (which will end up being paid by the company anyway) is not enough of a downside to prevent the crime being undertaken.  Any fine is preferable to seeing the inside of a prison.  

That said, any prison sentence is enough of a deterrant for most white collar criminals - 12/18 months would have been enough to send a strong message to him and others.


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## DerKaiser (13 Mar 2012)

orka said:


> That said, any prison sentence is enough of a deterrant for most white collar criminals - 12/18 months would have been enough to send a strong message to him and others.


 
Exactly.

The one Sunny refers to seems extreme also, though that is for a string of offences as opposed to a first time offender of good character doing his best to make the situation right. 

I think many people in this case believe that the guy could have been genuinely naive with respect to how serious his crime would be treated. Also, there is the element of one mistake absolutely ruining your life. Finally, I would have been unaware that a non-violent crime could attract such a harsh sentence.


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## T McGibney (13 Mar 2012)

Firefly said:


> I just hope that any former bankers under investigation will receive heavier sentences if and when they are tried.



I just hope that any former bankers under investigation don't use comments like the above to escape heavy sentences if and when they are tried.


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## blueband (13 Mar 2012)

i dont think anyone would have a problem with him getting 12/18 months, but six years was way over the top.   crazy how the courts work sometimes!


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## Firefly (13 Mar 2012)

T McGibney said:


> I just hope that any former bankers under investigation don't use comments like the above to escape heavy sentences if and when they are tried.


 
Not sure I know what you mean...I don't think any defence would say "your honour, this is exactly what Firefly from Askaboutmoney.com was hoping for"


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## T McGibney (13 Mar 2012)

There have been incidents in the past where public comments have been cited as reasons/excuses why a trial would be prejudiced  and therefore should not go ahead, eg 'Jail the Corrupt Politicians' posters, in relation to the late CJ Haughey.


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## Delboy (13 Mar 2012)

T McGibney said:


> There have been incidents in the past where public comments have been cited as reasons/excuses why a trial would be prejudiced  and therefore should not go ahead, eg 'Jail the Corrupt Politicians' posters, in relation to the late CJ Haughey.



thats 1 way to shut down free speech!


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## Firefly (13 Mar 2012)

T McGibney said:


> There have been incidents in the past where public comments have been cited as reasons/excuses why a trial would be prejudiced and therefore should not go ahead, eg 'Jail the Corrupt Politicians' posters, in relation to the late CJ Haughey.


 
In that case, I hope that those bankers under investigation get away scot free


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## Sunny (13 Mar 2012)

Firefly said:


> In that case, I hope that those bankers under investigation get away scot free


 
If they do, we know who to blame!


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## T McGibney (13 Mar 2012)

Delboy said:


> thats 1 way to shut down free speech!



It is indeed. Not my doing though! 

[broken link removed]


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## Firefly (13 Mar 2012)

Sunny said:


> If they do, we know who to blame!


 
I can't win


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## Shawady (13 Mar 2012)

Interesting story in today's news.
Some people made large settlements to revenue last year for failure to pay tax. A dentist from Carlow made the biggest settlement at €1.7 million.
It doesn't mention if anyone got jail time for it.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0313/revenue-business.html


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## smiley (13 Mar 2012)

Shawady said:


> Interesting story in today's news.
> Some people made large settlements to revenue last year for failure to pay tax. A dentist from Carlow made the biggest settlement at €1.7 million.
> It doesn't mention if anyone got jail time for it.
> 
> http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0313/revenue-business.html



Yes but this guy falsified documents/ asked the Chinese to do so. It is more complex than the typical tax settlements you mention.


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## oldnick (13 Mar 2012)

All tax cheats falsify documents in so much as they deliberately make false written statements to the Revenue. I suspect that many, like the dentist mentioned above, were doing so for ages- 1.7m settlement must have been for several years of  false declarations.


( Obviously, all of the  posters who think this guy got what he deserved have always insisted on a full receipt with VAT from a plumber, electrician, window-cleaner, or any odd-job person.  And never brought in more than the duty-free allowance after ,say, a trip to USA ).


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## Marion (13 Mar 2012)

Nobody is perfect.

But we can all learn from the major mistakes of others.

Marion


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## Slash (15 Mar 2012)

Shawady said:


> Interesting story in today's news.
> Some people made large settlements to revenue last year for failure to pay tax. A dentist from Carlow made the biggest settlement at €1.7 million.
> It doesn't mention if anyone got jail time for it.
> 
> http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0313/revenue-business.html



That is a fair point. Usually, but not always, the "settlements" include a significant portion of interest and penalties, so the amount of evaded tax is a lot less than the settlement amount.

But, in the case of Garlic Man, the amount evaded was the 1.6 million. As I understand it, from what I read, he showed little or no remorse or regret, and his defence consisted of "Ah, well, the duty rate on garlic is too high anyway, your Honour".


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## micmclo (17 Mar 2012)

Look at the support on this thread, Ireland still loves a cute hoor


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## oldnick (17 Mar 2012)

micmclo- evidently you didn't actually read the posts in this thread.

Not one poster said the man who evaded the (EU imposed very high) import duty on garlic should not be penalised.

Like me, many posters did feel that his punishment was far more severe than anything handed out to others evading tax  -and was equal to those sentences given to committing the most terrible of foul acts -rape, murder etc. 

I think that one cannot look at one sentence without looking at others. There MUST be an even-handed approach in our justice system. Evading garlic-duty imports is not the same as raping young children and nor should be their sentences be.

Anyway, that was my view -not that "I supported and loved the cute hoor".


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## Purple (17 Mar 2012)

micmclo said:


> Look at the support on this thread, Ireland still loves a cute hoor



I looked. I dodn't see it.


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## Brendan Burgess (3 Dec 2012)

He has appealed the severity of his sentence in the [broken link removed]today 



> Mr Patrick Gageby SC, for Begley, said to identify the offence with  the very worst of circumstances, and then to go on and impose the  maximum sentence despite the “very large amount” of material in  mitigation indicated an error in principle by Judge Nolan.
> 
> 
> He said the sentence appeared to be the longest sentence ever passed by a court in a revenue matter.
> ...


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## DB74 (3 Dec 2012)

What does a "reserved judgement" mean exactly?


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## orka (3 Dec 2012)

DB74 said:


> What does a "reserved judgement" mean exactly?


Basically that they are not going to pass judgement on the spot but will go away and think about it and deliver their judgement at a later date.


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