# SIPTU Jack wants something more progressive than USC



## Duke of Marmalade (15 Dec 2014)

SIPTU Jack has called for abolition of the USC. But he quickly assures his supporters that he has not deserted his socialist passion for taxation, he wants it replaced with something more "progressive", something that will yield even more than the USC but will be paid by the "wealthy".

USC varies from 1.5% to 11%. Something more progressive? Maybe Jack has in mind a NSC - Non Siptu Charge or a SEC - Self Employed Charge.

I think Jack's definition of "progressive" is that it brings in lots of tax but nothing from his members.


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## so-crates (15 Dec 2014)

I was mystified by the notion that he would replace USC with a "progressive" tax - I couldn't work out what the hell he thought USC was (other than disliked of course). It smacked of obfuscation. He is pandering to a constituency that doesn't understand the meaning of the words he is using or doesn't pay attention to his full message I think


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## Firefly (15 Dec 2014)

I remember hearing Jacko a few years ago on the radio advocating that a portion of private pension funds be put into infrastructure projects to get the economy moving. I wondered at the time if Matt Cooper had asked, if a portion _public_ sector pensions be derived from the profitability of said infrastructure projects, what his answer would have been


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## Deiseblue (16 Dec 2014)

Jack O'Connor is quite simply playing the political game in calling for the gradual abolition of the deeply unpopular but extremely lucrative USC in the knowledge that such a reduction seems to be resonating with some Labour & FG TDs who appear to favour such a reduction as opposed to a reduction in the top rate of tax.

Coincidently the Indo reports this morning that the Government intend to drop the USC 7% rate by either 1 or 2 %  - keep the pressure on Mr. O'Connor ! 


I must say that I find offensive , as a Union member , the reference to union leaders/members as " beards " - a bit juvenile & generalising don't you think ?


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## Duke of Marmalade (16 Dec 2014)

Deiseblue said:


> I must say that I find offensive , as a Union member , the reference to union leaders/members as " beards " - a bit juvenile & generalising don't you think ?


I did not mean to cause offence.  I have amended OP to show proper respect.


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## Purple (16 Dec 2014)

As a non union member I find the disingenuous words from lobbyists such as SIPTU Jack and the other cohort of leaders from the union Cabal deeply offensive. These people who consistently damage this country, who care not a whit for those who are not paying their dues, be they the very poor or the very rich or anyone in between, but preach with bombast and gusto about what everyone else is doing wrong, how everyone else is greedy and how everyone else should pay more taxes so that their members can continue to take money from the state coffers that should be spent on the sick and the vulnerable. They sicken me.  
This is just the usual hypocritical economically illiterate opportunism from a man with no discernible ethic or morals who represents a group with no discernible ethics or morals. They are not the only such group in this country but they are the best in class.


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## Firefly (16 Dec 2014)

Deiseblue said:


> Jack O'Connor is quite simply playing the political game in calling for the gradual abolition of the deeply unpopular but extremely lucrative USC in the knowledge that such a reduction seems to be resonating with some Labour & FG TDs who appear to favour such a reduction as opposed to a reduction in the top rate of tax.



I think you're right.


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## Deiseblue (16 Dec 2014)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> I did not mean to cause offence.  I have amended OP to show proper respect.



Excellent , I have no difficulty with the terms - Comrade , brother or sister !

 Incidentally Boards.ie , an infinitely more popular  & more socially representative site has banned the terms " beards " & " bearded brethern " & other linked references as being offensive .


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## Purple (16 Dec 2014)

Deiseblue said:


> Incidentally Boards.ie , an infinitely more popular  & more socially representative site has banned the terms " beards " & " bearded brethern " & other linked references as being offensive .



Is it socially progressive or the insidious erosion of free speech by subversive lobbyists?


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## Delboy (16 Dec 2014)

Jack was blindsided by the ferocity of the Water protests, given that he had stayed quiet/supported Labour on the issue.
So he's trying to regain some ground from the more militant in the Unions by going after a n easy target such as USC. And USC will most likely be the Labour party's main focus of attack in the next GE, so Jack and Joan are continuing to do the 2 step


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## The_Banker (16 Dec 2014)

Anyone who calls for the end of the USC is OK by me because I am sick of paying it.


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## Purple (16 Dec 2014)

The_Banker said:


> Anyone who calls for the end of the USC is OK by me because I am sick of paying it.


He's not calling for the end of it. He's calling for lower rates for his members.


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## The_Banker (16 Dec 2014)

Purple said:


> He's not calling for the end of it. He's calling for lower rates for his members.


 

Well I want to go further than that. I want it gone because if it doesnt go soon it will become "part of the furniture" and what was once seen as an emergency tax will be seen as a standard tax.


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## Purple (16 Dec 2014)

The_Banker said:


> Well I want to go further than that. I want it gone because if it doesnt go soon it will become "part of the furniture" and what was once seen as an emergency tax will be seen as a standard tax.



His members "need" pay increases and you are going to have to pay for them so forget about that idea.


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## Duke of Marmalade (16 Dec 2014)

Delboy said:


> Jack was blindsided by the ferocity of the Water protests, given that he had stayed quiet/supported Labour on the issue.


You would hardy expect the Generalissimus to be against water charges. How else can we pay for his members' performance related pay?


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## T McGibney (16 Dec 2014)

The_Banker said:


> Well I want to go further than that. I want it gone because if it doesnt go soon it will become "part of the furniture" and what was once seen as an emergency tax will be seen as a standard tax.



Jack actually wants the overall income tax burden to increase, for most people.


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## The_Banker (16 Dec 2014)

T McGibney said:


> Jack actually wants the overall income tax burden to increase, for most people.


 
I could be wrong but I dont think I took that from what he was saying.


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## Bronte (16 Dec 2014)

The_Banker said:


> I could be wrong but I dont think I took that from what he was saying.


 
What exactly do you think he means?

But I agree with the other posters, he wants to tax more so that civil servants can get pay rises. That's just what the country needs, marches for pay rises.

How much are we borrowing annually?


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## Gerry Canning (16 Dec 2014)

Duke.
USC is (progressive ) in its bluntness it is ratcheted up to hit higher earners harder.

FIREFLY.
Private pension funds have been raided .

PURPLE.
{these people who consistently damage this country}
Wrong , they were not in charge, and think, were would most people be without the moral compass of Unions over the decades.Do you wish to put your faith in our (enterprising ) class?
DELBOY.
Inclined to agree that this is a touch of posturing.
#
T MC GIBNEY.
You are probably correct in that Siptu want Income Tax to increase.

If I think about it he is CORRECT.
A proper Income Tax system would kill off these stealth taxes , USC/Pension Levy etc etc and Tax would be loaded on income without fudge.


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## Steven Barrett (16 Dec 2014)

Deiseblue said:


> Excellent , I have no difficulty with the terms - Comrade , brother or sister !
> 
> Incidentally Boards.ie , an infinitely more popular  & more socially representative site has banned the terms " beards " & " bearded brethern " & other linked references as being offensive .



I have a beard and I talk to my bearded brethern about beards and associated beard stories all the time...


...that and we plot against our sworn enemy, the bearded hipsters, with their perfectly groomed beards and red trousers.


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## Firefly (16 Dec 2014)

Gerry Canning said:


> FIREFLY.
> Private pension funds have been raided .



I think raiding private pension funds was one of the worst, most shortsighted policies ever introduced. Most people who have to fund their own retirement in any meaningful way are now very skeptical in taking out a pension. Given that public sector pensions are financed from current income & borrowing, those in the private sector will have to try to fund their own retirement and also their public sector friends'. Anyone else think this is a "House of Cards" waiting to fall?


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## Firefly (16 Dec 2014)

Delboy said:


> JAnd USC will most likely be the Labour party's main focus of attack in the next GE, so *Jack and Joan* are continuing to do the 2 step



"Jack and Joan up a tree..."


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## Duke of Marmalade (16 Dec 2014)

Gerry Canning said:


> A proper Income Tax system would kill off these stealth taxes , USC...and Tax would be loaded on income without fudge.


I agree it is farcical having separate names for what is essentially income tax. Then when it is used cynically to claim either that income tax has not been increased or has been reduced - who do they take us for? Also calling it a "social" charge has failed in softening its image. I note that Noonan and Enda cut to the chase these days and talk about reducing the marginal rate of tax which they identify as 52%. (55% for some self employed)

But all a bit off topic. He who is too mean to buy a razor was condemning USC not because it was taxation (he luvs taxation) but because it was not progressive enough.


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## Purple (18 Dec 2014)

Gerry Canning said:


> PURPLE.
> {these people who consistently damage this country}
> Wrong , they were not in charge, and think, were would most people be without the moral compass of Unions over the decades.Do you wish to put your faith in our (enterprising ) class?



Think where we'd be without the Suffragettes but they won the battle (and rightly so) and then they disappeared.
Unions in 2014 are nothing like Unions were in 1914. They have morphed into something that the founders of the Trade Union movement in this country would not recognise. I keep thinking of the last few pages of Orwell's Animal Farm.
This is a democracy and a Republic. No one other than the elected representatives of the people should have a say in how the country is run.


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## Padraigb (18 Dec 2014)

Purple said:


> ... No one other than the elected representatives of the people should have a say in how the country is run.


But everybody is entitled to have an opinion, and to express it.


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## Gerry Canning (18 Dec 2014)

Purple said:


> Think where we'd be without the Suffragettes but they won the battle (and rightly so) and then they disappeared.
> Unions in 2014 are nothing like Unions were in 1914. They have morphed into something that the founders of the Trade Union movement in this country would not recognise. I keep thinking of the last few pages of Orwell's Animal Farm.
> This is a democracy and a Republic. No one other than the elected representatives of the people should have a say in how the country is run.


 ........
Purple . Like your comments , 
but even now the Trade Union Movement is not totally Orwellian.
I remember the good work they did for Shipping Workers.
I applaud the work they have done for Waterford Workers.
In both these cases The State did not do their duty.

If our country is left to be run by elected representatives without the odd (riot) (uprising) to make them use their 2nd brain cell ,I think we could be in trouble.
People being (revolting) and nominally undemocratic  can be a good thing!


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## knockshe (11 Mar 2015)

So Jack was a proponent of that disgraceful levy on private pensions? I wonder does Jack think it is fair that someone, such as myself, in my mid-50's, recently made redundant, with a modest defined contribution pension that I daren't touch for several more years, should have their pension raided to essentially help pay for lucrative public service pensions, index-linked and often available to retirees in their 50's and to which no levy was applied. I agree we all had to make sacrifices to get the country back on its feet but it is the blatant unfairness of that pension levy that really galls me.


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## Deiseblue (11 Mar 2015)

Mr. O'Connor was , to the best of my knowledge , never a supporter of the private pensions levy - Indeed from memory he expressed grave reservations concerning same - it should be remembered that a significant percentage of SIPTU's members are in the private sector.

Of course a hugely controversial pension  levy was applied to public sector workers .

The most recent beneficiaries of the funds generated by the private pensions levy were of the course the private sector workers employed by the Waterford Glass.


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