# Ulster before Oireachtas Finance Committee  this morning



## Brendan Burgess (27 Jan 2018)

*Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach (Joint)* CR2, LH 2000 9 a.m.
AGENDA: *Session A*: EU Semester [_Mr. Valdis Dombrovskis, Vice-President for the Euro and Social Dialogue, also in charge of Financial Stability, Financial Services and Capital Markets Union, European Commission_]; and

*Session B*: Progress made regarding resolution of the Tracker Mortgage Redress Issue (resumed) [_Representatives from Ulster Bank_]

So, not sure what time they will start at.


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## notabene (27 Jan 2018)

I will be writing to Pearse and John McGuinness in the morning on foot of this - I have several questions for them to ask Mr Mallon, particularly regarding the changes in the new contract vs the original contract.

I would also suggest to anyone who switched their mortgage, if they did not get a full interest repayment to ask them to ask why not - mine was fully repaid from 2008 to 31st December 2017, accounting for the time with AIB. From what I understand others have only been paid for the period they remained with Ulster Bank


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## notabene (28 Jan 2018)

no problem @UBanker 

I've asked them some similar questions today too 

1. Why have the conditions in the contract changed & is this the case for existing tracker customers ie those who did not lose their rate through fixing
2. Why have some switchers only been repaid for the period until they moved their mortgage while others have received full payment up to Dec 31st
3. As section 2 of the mortgage contract clearly stated the Ulster Home loan rate as ECB +0.85 and the fixed rate authority referred to the Ulster Bank Home loan rate, which part was confusing and ambiguous? As this was also the information provided by banking staff were they incorrectly trained in selling the product
4. Finally, a very small amount of compensation has been paid relative to the bank tying the hands of customers for 10 years, and also in many cases fighting cases they had no right to fight - The bank has recently agreed to give employees a rise of up to 5% and paid a dividend to their parent of 1.5billion, the second such dividend in 14months - why has compensation been so low, forcing customers to fight further for proper restitution.


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## Brendan Burgess (29 Jan 2018)

This exchange between Pearse Doherty and Governor Lane is interesting 

Deputy Pearse Doherty: 

 

 With regard to the Ulster Bank figures, it is disappointing that 3,380 customers who were identified in September, with some having been identified at least a year before that, still have not been repaid. The banks will appear before us again and they have given us answers to prewritten answers. Ulster Bank is an outlier. The progress is absolutely appalling in comparison with PTSB and so on. It is just not acceptable. When we questioned the Minister as to why Ulster Bank is being given until the end of June to make sure all its customers have been paid back and compensated, he said it was the result of the systems the bank operates. Is the Central Bank of the view that the bank does not have the capacity to increase the level of compensation and redress beyond what it has identified because of the systems it operates?

Professor Philip Lane: The unfortunate answer is yes. We have pushed this as hard as we think we can to maximise the pace at which Ulster Bank. and all other lenders for that matter, pay out. This is where we are. There is a phased approach for Ulster Bank because it seems the way its internal files and computer files are such that they create this mechanical, operational constraint. We wish it was different. We have pushed them to what we think is a feasible pace. When Ulster Bank is before the committee, this can be pursued because it does read odd. It is something to ask about.


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## Banking17 (31 Jan 2018)

Hope we will have somebody in attendance tomorrow for 10.30.

Important we all highlight issues to members to highlight deplorable lack of progress by Ulster Bank.


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## Editiono (31 Jan 2018)

@notabene what email address are you using to email questions in, I have a number of them to ask and want to get them in today?


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## ragdal (31 Jan 2018)

I sent questions to: 
fincom@oireachtas.ie
john.mcguinness@oireachtas.ie
michael.mcgrath@oireachtas.ie
pearse.doherty@oireachtas.ie


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## notabene (31 Jan 2018)

Hi
@Editiono 


sorry only seeing these now - the above addresses! thank you for writing in


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## Editiono (31 Jan 2018)

thanks all, questions gone in


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## Banking17 (1 Feb 2018)

Interesting news item on Rte website Business indicating that UB will say have still only identified 3,500 and still working to identify remaining.

Unbelievable after 2 years and 200 staff working on this


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## Brendan Burgess (1 Feb 2018)

Banking17 said:


> Hope we will have somebody in attendance tomorrow for 10.30.



Banking

Where are you getting a start time of 10.30 from?

Brendan


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## Editiono (1 Feb 2018)

Banking17 said:


> Interesting news item on Rte website Business indicating that UB will say have still only identified 3,500 and still working to identify remaining.
> 
> Unbelievable after 2 years and 200 staff working on this


this from Charlie Weston yesterday thinks the 3500 could double. https://m.independent.ie/business/p...-on-handling-of-tracker-scandal-36553105.html


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## Thomas (1 Feb 2018)

following is on the committee schedule:

*What's on this week*
 The *Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach* will meet in Public Session at* 9.00 a.m. on Thursday, 1 February 2018* in *Committee Room 2*, LH 2000, Leinster House.

Session A: EU Semester [_Mr. Valdis Dombrovskis, Vice-President for the Euro and Social Dialogue, and also in charge of Financial Stability, Financial Services and Capital Markets Union_]



To commence at 10.30 a.m.

Session B: Progress made regarding resolution of the Tracker Mortgage Redress issue (resumed) [_Ulster Bank Representatives_]


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## Brendan Burgess (1 Feb 2018)

Thanks Thomas

That was not in the email I got.

Brendan


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## Thomas (1 Feb 2018)

Don’t know if the website is more up to date than the email so can’t guarantee it will happen at 10.30!


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## SaySomething (1 Feb 2018)

I expect the proceedings not to go live until closer to 11am. I'm not there (am in work) but attempting to monitor when I can.

10.26 Recording suspended until Ulster Bank appears


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## SaySomething (1 Feb 2018)

Now in public session. Committee Room 2.
Paul Stanley & Elizabeth Arnett in attendance. NOT Gerry Mallon.


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## Brendan Burgess (1 Feb 2018)

They are starting now

Paul Stanley - Chief Financial Officer
Elizabeth Arnett - Head of Corporate Affairs

Just under 3,500 have been identified

The delay in identifying them is unacceptable and apologise.

We started in March 2016 which added 3 months which could have been avoided.

We have 200 full time people working on the programme

Let me explain the challenges

We started with 300,000 customers in scope
64,000 started on trackers and are still on trackers

We conducted in in depth review of over 7,000 cases.

We had 5 mortgage systems across 2 banks.

We found over 1,600 customer journeys and some customers with 20 different points on the journey.

The vast majority of the 3,500 were affected by ambiguous contracts

We did not meet the standards of clarity. We are putting this right, accepting that the pace is frustratingly slow.

88% - due to ambiguity

12% - operational errors and

Around 2,500 are still with UB

For those who have left - we are committed to fixing by end of Q2

For those who have lost their home as a result  of losing their tracker

€50,000 offered up front 

A single point of contact 

A meeting
1,200 customers paid so far.

The letters can contain up to 30 pages but also a summary

They require manual calculations which can't be systemised.

There is no advantage to us in dragging our feet

We are still finalising the numbers but don't expect it to be on the same scale.


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## Brendan Burgess (1 Feb 2018)

*Michael McGrath 
*
Where is Mr Mallon? He should be here.

Stanley: He is leaving, but is not on leave.

McGrath - What about the 15 who have lost their homes?

Stanley: They have all been contacted - there may be more when we go through the buy to lets which might have been mis-classified

The loss of value
We will do our utmost to get them into a home

We have one of the 15 on our books
13 "voluntary" sales/surrenders
1 repossession and sale
1 repossession which we still own

McGrath;
2500 are still UB customers

1,200 paid to date of the 2,500?  No: Some to the redeemed customers

Stanley: We are on track to have it sorted by end of June - 2,500 by end of Q1

McGrath: I get more emails from UB customers than from any other lender.  They are getting no information and are very frustrated.

I don't detect confidence that you have got to the bottom of this - that the 3,500 figure is final. 

Stanley:  We are talking to the CB and will have the final numbers in a few weeks .
There are potentially other groups. 

McGrath
What state are your IT systems in? 

Stanley : The  5 mortgage systems are legacy systems. We now have two and they are far more robust. 

McGrath: Have you contacted the 1,000 who have left 
Stanley: We have contacted 500. We will contact 400 shortly. We are having difficulty in locating the other 100.


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## Brendan Burgess (1 Feb 2018)

McGrath
How do you calculate redress for those who have left 

Stanley 
We will do a calculation to the end of the mortgage term or give them the option of returning 

Any customer coming back to us will get the tracker they were on. 

McGrath - what about former First Active customers? 

Stanley: Yes, they are included. They are treated in the exact same way.  We make no distinction.  Some were affected. We will give you the FA numbers.


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## Brendan Burgess (1 Feb 2018)

Pearse Doherty

It's not acceptable that the CEO is not before the committee. We are dealing only with trackers today but we will have another meeting on CRG

The CB is clearly in dispute about the final numbers

Stanley: I don't accept that. They are looking for additional information relating to cohorts.  There are 5 areas , not so much cohorts.

Pearse: How many?

Stanley: We are not going into the numbers today. We just look at the policy. Whether it is 2 or 200,000 shouldn't determine whether they are impacted or not.

Pearse: Has the CB said that there are additional customers which they consider impacted

Stanley: That is their view.

Pearse: So you don't expect that there will be 3,000

Stanley: That is excessive. I am not discussing the figures.  We may accept the CB's view or we may challenge it. We don't want to end up in dispute with the CB.


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## Brendan Burgess (1 Feb 2018)

Pearse: Did any of the people lose their homes after the CB review began in Dec 2015? 

Stanley: We will check and revert. 

Pearse: Please also check if you sought voluntary surrender from anyone who lost a tracker since Dec 2015.

Pearse: There are two legal challenges at the moment. and you are going to defend them robustly? 

Stanley: We need to look at them - they have just come in.

Pearse: Did you bank break the law? 

Stanley:   Contractually - we used ambiguous terms. The contractual view is that it was not broken. But that is not the issue. We are putting a customer lens on this.  The legal advice is that we did not break the law.


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## Brendan Burgess (1 Feb 2018)

It's got very dull - nothing new for the last 30 minutes. 

Ciarán O'Donnell is repeating questions which were asked earlier while he was absent. 

Brendan


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## SaySomething (1 Feb 2018)

Very telling that the PR expert is now informing the Finance Committee about Ulster Bank's handling of the Tracker Issue.


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## Banking17 (1 Feb 2018)

J McGuinness Now First Active group Very vague on numbers.Terrible from Stanley


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## Banking17 (1 Feb 2018)

Pearse Doherty now probing payment levels rate changes and SARS request problems


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## TrackerWiki (1 Feb 2018)

I note Mr Stanley has said they have engaged with Padraic Kisaane.


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## SaySomething (1 Feb 2018)

Did you miss this bit? @Brendan Burgess ?
Watch here at about minute 42:  where Paul Murphy mentions that staff did object to being asked to not return customers to trackers.


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## moneymakeover (1 Feb 2018)

Nice one @SaySomething 

That could be controversial


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## Brendan Burgess (1 Feb 2018)

SaySomething said:


> Paul Murphy mentions that staff did object to being asked to not return customers to trackers.



I switch off when he comes on. I heard that, but placed no credence on it. 

If that is what actually happened, and it may have done, then he should have referred it to the Central Bank, which I don't think he has done. Had he done this, then the guys would not have denied it.

Brendan


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## Miakk (1 Feb 2018)

What a shambles from UB. 

From what Ms Arnett said to John McGuiness in response to him challenging her about the subsequent management of a particular case that she was following up for him, even the Head of Corporate Affairs can’t get things done!

While it was good to hear First Active customers mentioned specifically by different Committee members, I don’t think UB’s replies were anywhere near enough; if we (former First Active customers) are not being treated any differently, why are so many of us still waiting for confirmation as to whether or not we are impacted?

And on a related note, have I picked it up correctly that UB stated that 3,500 customers have been “identified”, but of these 2,500 have been restored to the correct rate?
If so, what about the balance??


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## Banking17 (1 Feb 2018)

The overall response and level of detail from Ulster is indeed appalling. After 2 years and 200 staff no final numbers no timescale and no commitment.

They have consistently misled this Committee for 2 years and show no respect whatsoever as evidenced today. The time for  apologies has long passed. Clearly Ulster have a policy of delay and resistance and both the Fin Committee and Central Bank are powerless to compel them.

Perhaps only option now is public pressure on Finance Minister


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## Brendan Burgess (2 Feb 2018)

Miakk said:


> have I picked it up correctly that UB stated that 3,500 customers have been “identified”, but of these 2,500 have been restored to the correct rate?



I found the numbers confusing, but as I understand them. 

UB was the quickest to restore identified people to the correct rate. This is the easy part. 
Calculating the overcharge is very complicated for everyone and particularly so for UB as they have 5 legacy systems. 

2,500 are still current customers. 
1,000 have switched to another lender or redeemed their mortgage. These are much more difficult to deal with, so they are prioritising the 2,500

Of the 3,500 a total of 1,200 have been paid redress so far.  That includes current and ex-customers. 

Brendan


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## Miakk (2 Feb 2018)

Thanks for clarifying that Brendan. 

I can only hope that the First Active cases like mine are amongst those under discussion/dispute with the Central Bank in Phase 2 of the investigation. 

But poster Corktim seems to have signed the same fixed rate documents as me and had his FA tracker restored in July 2017, so it’s impossible to ascertain how they are managing these cases.


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## Joanne Heeney (2 Feb 2018)

Brendan, i am one of the 2,500.,
Do you think i have a greater chance of receiving my redress in this quarter ? 

Thanks 

Joanne


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## Brendan Burgess (2 Feb 2018)

Joanne

I really don't know.

I presume that they have put you back on the right rate? 

Brendan


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## Banking17 (2 Feb 2018)

I find it hard to understand the lack of disquiet and anger Towards Ulster following another disastrous appearance yesterday.

Here we appear to have perhaps a dozen customers debating amongst ourselves for 2 years on this issue. How can we mobilise hundreds to put political pressure and embarrassment on the Finance Minister


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## Joanne Heeney (4 Feb 2018)

Hi Brendan 

Apologies , yes they have.


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## Editiono (4 Feb 2018)

Banking17 said:


> I find it hard to understand the lack of disquiet and anger Towards Ulster following another disastrous appearance yesterday.
> 
> Here we appear to have perhaps a dozen customers debating amongst ourselves for 2 years on this issue. How can we mobilise hundreds to put political pressure and embarrassment on the Finance Minister



It was a complete disgrace and the fact mallon never even turned up.  Pretty pretty poor in my opinion


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