# Setting up a bed and breakfast



## Mamamia22

Hi. A relative has a large detached house in a housing estate in Dublin. He is interested in renting out several rooms. Someone suggested to him that he might make more profit running a bed and breakfast. Apparently short term lets of rooms provide a reliable monthly cheque from the council. Essentially homeless B and B. He has four unused bedrooms. He could get at least 600 per room through letting rooms, but thinks the B and B option would be more lucrative as it’s on a nightly basis. Anyone know how to go about it?


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## trajan

Obviously there are regulations and licensing regarding B & B accommodation.
Start here:





						Opening a Bed and Breakfast
					






					www.gov.ie
				




From experience over the last 20 odd years in all parts of Ireland, nearly all today have _en suite_ bathrooms (usually showers only) in every room.
The going rate for B&B in provincial Ireland is ~ €60 a night with a higher tab for Dublin.

At busy periods you would therefore get more from B&B *provided you get close to full occupancy*.
But full occupancy is hard to achieve except for periods of local events or well-appointed B&Bs close to say a major event centre like the Gleneagle in Killarney.

But be aware that "breakfast" today is a high expectation and high selection offering. In many places it's like what you'd be offered in a 4 start hotel - a range of fruits and juices to select from, good range of cereals, milk (cow and soya) and then a choice of rural, "full Irish" or continental main courses with a choice of teas and coffees. There is usually a range of breads on offer in both brown and white plus the mandatory toast.

What I'm saying is that while B&B can be high revenue, it is also a serious commitment in terms of provisions and service - the latter inevitably involving talking to customers and providing them with information on all sorts of things. 

No longer is it enough to slap a couple of rashers and a fried egg before them and walk back to the kitchen without a word.
It's a social and relational commitment as much as an enterprise, be under no illusions on this.


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## Mamamia22

Thank you for reply. He was hoping for a more relaxed approach. He is in his 60s and has no intention of taking too much work on board. He has heard of B and Bs that just offer a bed/en-suite. Perhaps some cereal in the morning. They are getting 100/night for homeless accommodation. It’s paid once a month from the council. Change of bed linen once a week is about as much as they do. No hassle is what he is after.


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## peemac

Simply rent two rooms for €580/month plus share of bills 

Zero tax liability, (up to €14k a year) zero hassle.


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## trajan

I see. Well, B&B is hassle for sure unless you are well-organized and always on top of the job.
You could get part-time local women to do the work but they could never match the commitment of an owner.
And it's the commitment (making a good fuss over each guest in other words) that makes it all profitable since competing B&Bs will provide it.

In USA they have hotels doing Bed & Power Shower (no meals but have internet + TV) for travelling salespeople.
I wonder if it would work for guesthouses in Ireland. But it might if you have decent breakfast joints open early nearby and a clientele that preferred this proposition.


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## NoRegretsCoyote

peemac said:


> Zero tax liability, (up to €14k a year) zero hassle.


Having lodgers is rarely zero hassle, but if you find the right people it is about 5% the work of running a B&B.

€14k after tax is a pretty decent tax-free income for pretty low effort.


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## messyleo

trajan said:


> You could get part-time local women to do the work but they could never match the commitment of an owner.



Surely you mean part time local people? Or is domestic work just for women?


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## trajan

1. Most guests prefer to have their meals prepared by a woman as they generally do it better, faster and more hygienically.
No, I haven't polled it. But I know it's true.
As regards bed-making and sending old bedding to the laundry, it doesn't matter. A guesthouse I stayed in when in Dublin has a Chinese couple come in mornings to make the beds (as a paired team, I suppose) and draw away the old bedding.

2. It's easier to get local women for part-time work. Men looking for part-time work tend to do heavier and dirtier stuff like maintenance, gardening, etc.


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## noproblem

Mamamia,
Your friend will make everyone in the estate very happy when he starts to rent out the large house to homeless b/b tenants. I'm sure the people staying there will be happy to see their bedclothes laundered once a week too. That's only for starters. If you don't go down that route and do the B/B properly I can see it working out real well, especially as he has no idea or experience in the "business". Then again he could do as No Regrets Coyot has advised you, just make sure everything is in order with the new rules and regulations. Car parking might be important too. I'm really surprised that thousands more people with large houses aren't making a fortune, from just simply letting people stay in their properties overnight with very little work involved. Good luck with it.


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## Mamamia22

Points taken. He has heard from reliable sources that the county councils are paying top prices for rooms on nightly rates. Is it permissible to to it without reaching Bord Failtes standard ? He just wants to do bed only accommodation at a basic level ? There is a national accommodation crisis. What would his insurance bill look like ? What can the neighbours do about it ? Surely his guests are no one else’s business ?


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## Monbretia

I can't imagine supplying homeless accommodation is going to be no hassle!   Now the bulk of people are probably fine but you have no real control do you over the guests?


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## Peanuts20

His starting point should be to go and speak to his local county council and outline what he has and find out what the regulations and expectations from the council are and their oversight. Likelihood is that if he is living in the house himself, he may need to be Garda vetted. Also he needs to think what happens during the day and after breakfast, what are these people going to be doing. Unlikely he can send them out during the day. 

he also needs to take into account insurance and tax, in effect he is setting up a business. Lastly some homeless people have substance abuse issues that not even the council may be aware of and he needs to think about this also. 

Does he really need the money and would he be better off selling the house and downsizing?


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## T McGibney

Insane idea from start to finish and a recipe for disaster for the poor man if he is sufficiently gullible to pursue it.


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## Leo

Mamamia22 said:


> There is a national accommodation crisis.


How does charging €100 a night for room-only with no access to food or cooking facilities do anything at all to address the needs of those unable to afford/ find a suitable home to buy or rent? 



Mamamia22 said:


> What can the neighbours do about it ? Surely his guests are no one else’s business ?


If your running of a home business negatively affects your neighbours, they can complain and the local authority have the powers to make him stop under planning legislation.


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## Purple

trajan said:


> 1. Most guests prefer to have their meals prepared by a woman as they generally do it better, faster and more hygienically.
> No, I haven't polled it. But I know it's true.


Wow, that's really very sexist. 


trajan said:


> 2. It's easier to get local women for part-time work. Men looking for part-time work tend to do heavier and dirtier stuff like maintenance, gardening, etc.


So is that.


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## trajan

Come on, Purple .
It is a statement of what I have observed in western society and no more than that.
You might just as easily complain that it was a slash at men in general for being dirty, unpunctual, untidy and slow to tackle housework.


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## Páid

Going off topic but gender has nothing to do with it. A person is either a good or bad cook/cleaner as the case may be.


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## T McGibney

Páid said:


> Going off topic but gender has nothing to do with it. A person is either a good or bad cook/cleaner as the case may be.


He was talking about perceptions on the part of others.


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## Mamamia22

Thanks for all the contributions including links etc. The gentleman in question is not looking to upset neighbours. Providing rooms to refugees means that they won’t have to live in a tent. Does anyone know if it is necessary to be Bord Failte registered to call your business a B and B? It is a very basic service that he wants to run. No full Irish breakfasts etc. BF also set out criteria for individual dining tables but he would not have the space for that. There would be a shared sitting room for the guests and access to a shared kitchen in case they wanted to prepare food themselves.


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## jpd

Sounds like a disaster waiting to happen


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## Aurora

If his house becomes a B&B it is then becomes a business as opposed to a PPR. He will be required to make returns to revenue abs be liable to Capital gains for the time his house was reclassified as a commercial enterprise. 
Rent a room is so straightforward and much less stressful.


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## T McGibney

Aurora said:


> and be liable to Capital gains for the time his house was reclassified as a commercial enterprise.


Not if he dies in possession of it.


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## Páid

T McGibney said:


> He was talking about perceptions on the part of others.


I disagree. This is what was said.



> 1. Most guests prefer to have their meals prepared by a woman as they generally do it better, faster and more hygienically.
> No, I haven't polled it. But I know it's true.
> As regards bed-making and sending old bedding to the laundry, it doesn't matter. A guesthouse I stayed in when in Dublin has a Chinese couple come in mornings to make the beds (as a paired team, I suppose) and draw away the old bedding.
> 
> 2. It's easier to get local women for part-time work. Men looking for part-time work tend to do heavier and dirtier stuff like maintenance, gardening, etc


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## T McGibney

T McGibney said:


> He was talking about perceptions on the part of others.





Páid said:


> I disagree. This is what was said.



Yet he said...



> No, I haven't polled it. But I know it's true.


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## Mamamia22

He has heard it’s how many B and Bs are run nowadays. No frills but a regular reliable guaranteed decent income.


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## Páid

There is probably a reason the Council are allegedly paying €100 a night when the average b & b for a night is cheaper.


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## Monbretia

Where has he heard this stuff?  Reliable source or the equivalent of bar talk?

A B&B I know of changed from ordinary tourist guests to council placed guests, now it was a big B&B and there wasn't family living in it as a home as well, just on site staff.   Anyway I don't know what they get per night but the address features very heavily in the court cases in the local paper regularly.   I'd prefer to have control over my own guests that to have to take what you are sent, they might not all be war refugees or homeless families, it's too risky in your own home!


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## Mamamia22

Ok thank you for all the comments. Will pass on. He has heard it how profitable from a B and B owner who is doing very well for themselves. However the advice re CGT may put him off the idea.


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## Leo

Mamamia22 said:


> Providing rooms to refugees means that they won’t have to live in a tent.


First it was the homeless now it's refugees.... This man is really out to solve all the world's ills. 

There has been some talk of housing some of those fleeing Ukraine in tents temporarily, but you can inform your friend that no one will be paying €100 a night as an alternative. 

Since it was first suggested on Monday, has your relative contacted the council to see if they are interested in availing of such low frills accommodation at such a high price?


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## Mamamia22

No need to be cynical. He has been told in good faith that this rate IS being paid to B and B owners by councils. Rising demand means rising prices. I’m sure you understand how the market works Leo.


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## Purple

trajan said:


> Come on, Purple .
> It is a statement of what I have observed in western society and no more than that.
> You might just as easily complain that it was a slash at men in general for being dirty, unpunctual, untidy and slow to tackle housework.


You could indeed, and about women being emotional and men being more logical and women having intuition etc but we have, I hope, moved on from those kind of sexist stereotype. 
Oh, and I took it as a go at men. I can cook and clean and wash and iron. I'm way better than it than my ex-wife or current partner (both of them would agree). My sons can do the same. 
If a man can't do that stuff he had bad parents and has failed to better himself as an adult. 
If a woman ends up with a man like that she's an idiot. 
But we've moved on from that and now men can cook and clean and women can be in charge of things and be logical and all that stuff and we shouldn't make hiring decisions based on the sexist hang-ups' of some crusty potential customer. Just like we shouldn't avoid hiring black or gay people in case our customers are racist or homophobic.


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## Leo

Mamamia22 said:


> No need to be cynical. He has been told in good faith that this rate IS being paid to B and B owners by councils. Rising demand means rising prices. I’m sure you understand how the market works Leo.


I do understand how the market works, thanks. and I see no evidence of demand for room only accommodation at anything like €100 a day. 

He's been told in good faith by someone who may or may not know what they're talking about. There are a huge number of myths around some of these services. I'm sure you understand that if you or your relative want to offer accommodation services to the local authority, it's them you should be talking to, not an internet forum. Only they can tell you if the house is suitable and in a location where they have more demand than current capacity. The use of Hotels and B&Bs is something authorities have been looking to reduce over the past number of years.


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## Mamamia22

Speak to B and B owners. They are cleaning up. The current Ukrainian situation means they can dictate rates and they were already doing very well from homeless Irish persons. He has it on authority from several B and B owners he knows. Money in the bank every month. Change of sheets once a week. What’s not to like ? I’ll bet there will be a clear out of Irish room renters to welcome Ukrainians instead when people see the nightly rates.


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## Leo

Mamamia22 said:


> I’ll bet there will be a clear out of Irish room renters to welcome Ukrainians instead when people see the nightly rates.


Can you point to a single piece of evidence regarding anyone paying that kind of money to house Ukrainian refugees in B&Bs?

The Irish Red Cross are coordinating the accommodation effort for those fleeing Ukraine. Last I heard they were still working through the 25,000+ offers of accommodation already pledged at that time from the public. There is currently no payment being offered for such housing offers. 

If he knows several B&B owners and this is such easy money, why are you even posting here? A report in the Times a few years back said the minimum number of beds in B&Bs being used to house the homeless at that time was 16, this doesn't sound like the scale you're talking about. There is big money to be made there, but only if you're at the right scale and in the right location.


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## Purple

Mamamia22 said:


> Speak to B and B owners. They are cleaning up. The current Ukrainian situation means they can dictate rates and they were already doing very well from homeless Irish persons. He has it on authority from several B and B owners he knows. Money in the bank every month. Change of sheets once a week. What’s not to like ? I’ll bet there will be a clear out of Irish room renters to welcome Ukrainians instead when people see the nightly rates.


A few things;

A B&B without Breakfast is just a 'B'.
The owner has to apply to their local authority for planning permission for change of use. 
Fáilte Ireland will inspect it using the powers they have under the Tourist Traffic Acts 1939-2003. Info [broken link removed]
The building has to up to code for Fire Safety. That can be expensive.
If they are serving food then they'll have to Food Safety Authority about standards and make sure they are trained in food safety.


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## HonestlyTho

Someone asked but you didnt reply; would it not be better for him to sell and downsize? If what he wants is financial stability and low hassle, a smaller place with a nice income from sale will get him that.

Running a BnB, even a simple one, is hassle, as others have said.
Renting to the Council, is work and has risk, as others have said.
It's not possible to make money for nothing, most of the time.

I'd encourage you to ask him what problem he's trying to solve, and to focus on the fact that filling empty rooms is probably not it.


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## Mamamia22

Is change of use planning really required ? Yes it’s just a B he is after. Not a B and B. Bed only is ideal. Are all B and Bs Bord failte registered ?? Don’t think so. Fire stuff should be doable. He won’t be preparing any food. He doesn’t cook. Usually eats out ….


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## Pinoy adventure

Maybe he could contact student unions or local large builders/building sites too see if the beds would be taken on a nightly basics.
The overseas student market would be another option too tap into.


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## DeeKie

Would he consider Airbnb? That would give him more options to tailor his offering. 

Off topic the sexism on this board is breathtaking sometimes.


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## Purple

DeeKie said:


> Would he consider Airbnb? That would give him more options to tailor his offering.


Yes, that or the student accommodation that @Pinoy adventure suggested.


DeeKie said:


> Off topic the sexism on this board is breathtaking sometimes.


You're just being an overly emotional woman


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## DeeKie

So I’ve been told many times in not so many words. You have to call it when you see it. Every day sexism is the worst. Pervasive and persuasive.


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## trajan

Purple said:


> You could indeed, and about women being emotional and men being more logical and women having intuition etc but we have, I hope, moved on from those kind of sexist stereotype.
> Oh, and I took it as a go at men. I can cook and clean and wash and iron. I'm way better than it than my ex-wife or current partner (both of them would agree). My sons can do the same.
> If a man can't do that stuff he had bad parents and has failed to better himself as an adult.
> If a woman ends up with a man like that she's an idiot.
> But we've moved on from that and now men can cook and clean and women can be in charge of things and be logical and all that stuff and we shouldn't make hiring decisions based on the sexist hang-ups' of some crusty potential customer. Just like we shouldn't avoid hiring black or gay people in case our customers are racist or homophobic.



Purple:

I gave an assessment of what I adjudge other people (both sexes) would prefer in the provision of meals in a B&B.
It is not *my* preference any more than it is yours.

Does this assessment have to be made at all to operate a B&B successfully in Ireland today ?
I think that it has.
Because the proprietor will have to commit funds and both physical and moral effort at a later stage of their life in this enterprise - when they can ill-afford to get it wrong as there is no recovery time. To commence an enterprise without market assessment is rank folly. And market assessment without reflection on consumers' preferences - or reasonable speculation on what they are likely to be - is an empty exercise.
In short, many of the public's perceptions of gender roles may be mistaken - and we should not encourage them.
But getting a business turning a healthy profit is a cold-blooded task: we have to be realistic about our chances of success if we do it without regard to consumers' expectations.

For what it's worth, I can cook (basic with about 12 preferred dishes), hoover and iron too. I didn't do it as a boon to the women of the world, I did it to be independent of restaurant and laundry bills and being a drag on women I didn't want to have truck with.


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## Purple

trajan said:


> Purple:
> 
> I gave an assessment of what I adjudge other people (both sexes) would prefer in the provision of meals in a B&B.
> It is not *my* preference any more than it is yours.
> 
> Does this assessment have to be made at all to operate a B&B successfully in Ireland today ?
> I think that it has.
> Because the proprietor will have to commit funds and both physical and moral effort at a later stage of their life in this enterprise - when they can ill-afford to get it wrong as there is no recovery time. To commence an enterprise without market assessment is rank folly. And market assessment without reflection on consumers' preferences - or reasonable speculation on what they are likely to be - is an empty exercise.
> In short, many of the public's perceptions of gender roles may be mistaken - and we should not encourage them.
> But getting a business turning a healthy profit is a cold-blooded task: we have to be realistic about our chances of success if we do it without regard to consumers' expectations.


Okay, but firstly it's illegal to hire on that basis and secondly it's stupid. As an employer you hire the best person for the job. The vast majority of people don't care who makes the bed in their hotel or B&B as long as it's made properly. The same goes for their meals.
The entire enterprise, as outlined in the first post, is a monumentally stupid idea. The gender of the cleaner won't be the reason it all ends in tears.  


trajan said:


> For what it's worth, I can cook (basic with about 12 preferred dishes), hoover and iron too. I didn't do it as a boon to the women of the world, I did it to be independent of restaurant and laundry bills and being a drag on women I didn't want to have truck with.


If one is reasonably sound of body and mind and can read and tell the time one can cook. All it takes in minimal practice and effort. Cleaning and ironing are even easier. People who say they can't do it are just lazy and or spoiled.


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## Leo

trajan said:


> I gave an assessment of what I adjudge other people (both sexes) would prefer in the provision of meals in a B&B.
> It is not *my* preference any more than it is yours.


I have to say I was a little surprised by that assessment. I can't say I've ever heard any similar discussion that reflects that view. We're still at a point where professional kitchens are an overwhelmingly male dominated environment. I find it a bit strange that you think most people would expect meals in a B&B to be prepared by a woman and think that they do a better job while at the same time as the vast majority of our celebrated chefs are male.


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## trajan

Leo said:


> I have to say I was a little surprised by that assessment. I can't say I've ever heard any similar discussion that reflects that view. We're still at a point where professional kitchens are an overwhelmingly male dominated environment. I find it a bit strange that you think most people would expect meals in a B&B to be prepared by a woman and think that they do a better job while at the same time as the vast majority of our celebrated chefs are male.



Professional kitchens, yes.
But those making the breakfast in B&Bs are not time-served chefs by any means.


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## dereko1969

trajan said:


> Purple:
> 
> I gave an assessment of what I adjudge other people (both sexes) would prefer in the provision of meals in a B&B.
> It is not *my* preference any more than it is yours.
> 
> Does this assessment have to be made at all to operate a B&B successfully in Ireland today ?
> I think that it has.
> Because the proprietor will have to commit funds and both physical and moral effort at a later stage of their life in this enterprise - when they can ill-afford to get it wrong as there is no recovery time. To commence an enterprise without market assessment is rank folly. And market assessment without reflection on consumers' preferences - or reasonable speculation on what they are likely to be - is an empty exercise.
> In short, many of the public's perceptions of gender roles may be mistaken - and we should not encourage them.
> But getting a business turning a healthy profit is a cold-blooded task: we have to be realistic about our chances of success if we do it without regard to consumers' expectations.
> 
> For what it's worth, I can cook (basic with about 12 preferred dishes), hoover and iron too. I didn't do it as a boon to the women of the world, I did it to be independent of restaurant and laundry bills and being a drag on women I didn't want to have truck with.


All hail the Trajan market research s/he only has to look into their heart to know what everyone feels. We shall bow down to you.


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## huskerdu

trajan said:


> Professional kitchens, yes.
> But those making the breakfast in B&Bs are not time-served chefs by any means.


You only speak for yourself . It is ludicrous for you to say that you know that it’s common belief that women are better at making breakfast in a B&B. You really need to stop digging at this stage


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## Pinoy adventure

trajan said:


> Professional kitchens, yes.
> But those making the breakfast in B&Bs are not time-served chefs by any means.


This post kind of reminds me of basil fawlty of fawlty towers.


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## Mamamia22

I’m told a 4 bed Bed only business does not need to meet fire regulations typically expected in a B and B with more than 4 guest bedrooms. A planning change of use application is also apparently not required, given the small set up. It would seem that setting up such a business is more straightforward than first thought. Albeit the type of clientele and uncertain duration of occupancy may cause issues. It might be better to stick to long term room renters given these risks but the financial reward is less enticing.


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## trajan

@Purple:
The house in question is not an all-out B&B - it is also the home of the proprietor.
In domestic servant appointments one can discriminate owing to the private nature of the work space and the need for trust between employer and employee here. So the employment law argument won't wash here.

@huskerdu:

I was saying that, in my assessment, most people would prefer to have breakfast made and served by a woman. Not that women are necessarily better at doing this.


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## Purple

trajan said:


> @Purple:
> The house in question is not an all-out B&B - it is also the home of the proprietor.
> In domestic servant appointments one can discriminate owing to the private nature of the work space and the need for trust between employer and employee here. So the employment law argument won't wash here.


Domestic servant? Are you writing from 1860?
An employee who cooks and cleans in a hotel, B&B, Guest house or such similar establishment is not a domestic servant.

If you live over a shop it’s not okay to put a sign up looking for staff saying no darkies need apply.


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## Purple

trajan said:


> I was saying that, in my assessment, most people would prefer to have breakfast made and served by a woman. Not that women are necessarily better at doing this.


Okay, you are writing from 1860. That explains it.


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## Purple

DeeKie said:


> So I’ve been told many times in not so many words. You have to call it when you see it. Every day sexism is the worst. Pervasive and persuasive.


Yep, for example every time I hear women’s GAA being called Ladies GAA I cringe and visualise a bunch of crusty old men in dandruff dusted worn out suits and a few priests reluctantly consenting to allowing the “Ladies” to play the game. Unless we start referring to the mens game as Gentlemen’s GAA then it should just be men and women.


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## Mamamia22

This thread has been completely derailed. Is there anyone who would like to comment on a small bed only set up of 3-4 rooms for short term tenants in crisis situations ? Versus long term letting. I have it on good authority that 90 + euro per night is possible in the former set up without breakfast, dinner, access to dining facilities etc. I can’t see any disadvantage other than uncertain duration and possible social problems.


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## Monbretia

They are pretty big disadvantages when it's a person's own home!


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## Purple

Mamamia22 said:


> I can’t see any disadvantage other than uncertain duration and possible social problems.


Dealing with people. That's the hardest thing in any business. Dealing with people who are damaged and/or traumatised and desperate will have its own set of particular problems. I can't remember seeing a worse idea on AAM.


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## Peanuts20

Mamamia22 said:


> This thread has been completely derailed. Is there anyone who would like to comment on a small bed only set up of 3-4 rooms for short term tenants in crisis situations ? Versus long term letting. I have it on good authority that 90 + euro per night is possible in the former set up without breakfast, dinner, access to dining facilities etc. I can’t see any disadvantage other than uncertain duration and possible social problems.



I don't think anyone on here is suitably qualified or experienced to give exact information, based on what has been posted so far. You should therefore start with your local County council and discuss with them the requirements they have, how you get on their list as it is the homeless services that will be providing the tennants and probably the payment as well.  I would imagine they would have a strong focus on bathrooms and personal facilities as well. Any fundamental alterations to the property may require planning permission

If you are providing food, you will need to meet minimum hygiene and safety standards and may need to register with the local environmental health office. They will review and audit you at some stage

I would imagine a Health and Safety review, with specific focus on emergency exit and access would need to be done, possibly by the local fire officer. Things like emergency evacuation plans etc may need to be put in place.

I would imagine you would need to get public liability insurance, certainly the current house insurance won't cover it.

Hence there will be an investment up front.

You are also setting up a business and therefore need to have taken proper tax and financial management advice. Treat it as a business, do a business plan and work out your profit and return on investment after tax as well as cash flow


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## dereko1969

Mamamia22 said:


> I’m told a 4 bed Bed only business does not need to meet fire regulations typically expected in a B and B with more than 4 guest bedrooms. A planning change of use application is also apparently not required, given the small set up. It would seem that setting up such a business is more straightforward than first thought. Albeit the type of clientele and uncertain duration of occupancy may cause issues. It might be better to stick to long term room renters given these risks but the financial reward is less enticing.


Where did you get this information from? Who told you.


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## Leo

Mamamia22 said:


> This thread has been completely derailed.


This is true and I've played a part in that. We usually try to keep threads on topic, but you seem to have ignored any good advice posted and so I see little point trying to resurrect a lost cause. 



Mamamia22 said:


> Is there anyone who would like to comment on a small bed only set up of 3-4 rooms for short term tenants in crisis situations ? Versus long term letting. I have it on good authority that 90 + euro per night is possible in the former set up without breakfast, dinner,


Have you spoken to the local authority yet? What are your thoughts on the earlier point the the lowest number of bedrooms in a B&B being used for emergency accommodation in Dublin was 16.


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## Leo

trajan said:


> Professional kitchens, yes.


Are B&Bs run as a hobby?


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## Sue Ellen

Mamamia22 said:


> This thread has been completely derailed. Is there anyone who would like to comment on a small bed only set up of 3-4 rooms for short term tenants in crisis situations ? Versus long term letting. I have it on good authority that 90 + euro per night is possible in the former set up without breakfast, dinner, access to dining facilities etc. I can’t see any disadvantage other than uncertain duration and possible social problems.



As mentioned by OP above can we get back to subject matter, keep this thread on track and refrain from derailing it please.


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## Purple

Mamamia22 said:


> This thread has been completely derailed. Is there anyone who would like to comment on a small bed only set up of 3-4 rooms for short term tenants in crisis situations ? Versus long term letting. I have it on good authority that 90 + euro per night is possible in the former set up without breakfast, dinner, access to dining facilities etc. I can’t see any disadvantage other than uncertain duration and possible social problems.


What else is there to say?

All we have is hearsay which has been countered with sound advice which has been ignored.


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## wudyaquit

Back to the original poster. Setting up a BnB is relatively straightforward.  You don't have to be registered with Failte ireland (and its not worth the hassle going down that road).
Its perfectly fine not to offer breakfast. Increasingly room only accommodations are popping up, particularly with the advent of Airbnb and with many providers cancelling breakfast over covid and choosing not to reintroduce it. As regards health and safety you dont necessarily need Haccp, fire alarm systems etc etc. There are bnbs throughout the country that have been going for generations that never had an inspection from anyone. However you do open yourself up to liability issues if there is a problem down the road. All that is really needed to open a b and b is to stick a sign on your door and thats you up and running. There's no one really regulating anything. You can't call it a guesthouse without registering with failte ireland but "xxx accommodation" or i think "xxx b and b" is fine.

Forget about the €100 rate. Ukrainians are being housed for a variety of different rates depending on how they're placed (community groups / council etc) but I'm aware of hotels getting less than that. Many hotels will be withdrawing their rooms for the summer so the rate may have to rise but that isn't the going rate at the minute. And without proper facilities you aren't going to be getting the top rate. Councils rates are different throughout the country but they'll depend on the going rate in the area.
Insurance may be affected - typically you'd pay about 2k for a small bnb. Tax will depend how you decide to set it up. 

Hassle: mountains more than he envisages. If he's thinking of just leaving everyone at it he still needs to meet people to give keys. If he's living on site this Will mean people arriving after check in closes, bringing people back for a party, damaging property, noise complaints. For a bottom of the market type property therell be regular visits from the gardai for various reasons. Cleaning, maintenance, responding to guest requests, dealing with overbooking, dealing with troublesome guests. If he's not going to be hands on or have someone in who can run it for him it will be a dump in no time and that brings its own problems (the only people who'llstay once the review score drops will have various issues. The council won't place anyone in properties that cant maintain a basic standard).  If he's going to do it, he would be making a rod for his own back to do it any way other than somewhat well. 
It is however fairly profitable at the moment. And would almost certainly generate a better return than renting. 
As regards the male / female debate, I have 4 full time employees - breakfast reviews are better generally when the 2 male ams are on but overall there has been little notable difference. And I've always found it easier to find males for this kind of role (for the size id expect he'd want any hire to be able to do a lot of different tasks, not just cook for 2 hours). Thats an opinion based on many thousands of reviews and direct feedback which I'm reluctant to give because the whole "debate" is so laughably ridiculous in the first place.


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## wudyaquit

On some of the other points raised
Council - a bnb isn't strictly commercial (it's commercial residential) so you may not need to do anything. There are plenty around the place that operate happily as residential properties although I don't know if that is them getting around the regs or the regs allowing that.

Ukrainians - originally they wanted properties to provide 2 meals per day and laundry facilities but I'm sure that's relaxed since.

You're talking about a situation that puts you between 2 stools - both short and long term accommodation. Bnbs don't take deposits or references like landlords do but they can kick anyone out very easily. Once you go over 30 days you must register the guest with the tenancy board and give rent book. You also need to go through full eviction proceedings to get rid of them regardless of their behaviour or their breaking rules. In this case you would need to be more careful who you accept in the first place.

Also just to be aware, for tax purposes revenue made it clear that short term let's are not acceptable for the rent a room scheme (so full tax due).


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## Mamamia22

Hi there wudyquit. You seem to know first hand the pros and cons. The rate on offer is c. 70 a night to include continental breakfast. He is considering a 4 bed B and B. Council would sign a contract. Insurance is only 600 a year so not much different to usual. Don’t think any kitchen health and safety regs have been raised by the council yet. Are there any inspections that the council would carry out ?


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## noproblem

Mamamia22 said:


> Hi there wudyquit. You seem to know first hand the pros and cons. The rate on offer is c. 70 a night to include continental breakfast. He is considering a 4 bed B and B. Council would sign a contract. Insurance is only 600 a year so not much different to usual. Don’t think any kitchen health and safety regs have been raised by the council yet. Are there any inspections that the council would carry out ?


If the Dept of health got a complaint they might come to check it out. Then again someone might think it's a fire hazard and another head of some Dept could come a calling. Fire, health and safety plus any food regs might need to get checked out, not too sure about smoking and stuff. Car parking if required and sure maybe they'll want a friend or two over for a few cans. Get everything in writing and then you'll be sound, otherwise?


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## Mamamia22

Just to go back to the PRTB. My understanding is that registration of a tenancy and a rent book are not applicable ? If there is a problem tenant/guest they can be ejected …is that correct ?


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## noproblem

Mamamia22 said:


> Just to go back to the PRTB. My understanding is that registration of a tenancy and a rent book are not applicable ? If there is a problem tenant/guest they can be ejected …is that correct ?


So, how is he going to do that?


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## Mamamia22

Tell them to leave and change a door lock. Not a big problem. I have read the prtb website it says registration not necessary for a B and B unless there is a caveat for longer term B and B occupancy?


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## Leo

Mamamia22 said:


> Tell them to leave and change a door lock. Not a big problem. I have read the prtb website it says registration not necessary for a B and B unless there is a caveat for longer term B and B occupancy?


B&Bs by the standard definition are short term. If they're there more than 6 months, they get full Part 4 rights.


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## Mamamia22

Spoke to the PRTB. They had no interest in a B and B. Said it’s up to the landlord to decide if a tenancy exists. Couldn’t have been more vague about it.


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## Purple

Mamamia22 said:


> Spoke to the PRTB. They had no interest in a B and B. Said it’s up to the landlord to decide if a tenancy exists. Couldn’t have been more vague about it.


They aren't in the business of giving taxation or legal advice outside of their remit.


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## dereko1969

Mamamia22 said:


> Spoke to the PRTB. They had no interest in a B and B. Said it’s up to the landlord to decide if a tenancy exists. Couldn’t have been more vague about it.


You, or your "friend"?


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## Mamamia22

Im assisting a friend. Is that permitted ? An earlier poster suggested that a tenancy would have to be created with a rent book issue after 30 days. I think I have established that was incorrect. Open to correction.


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## noproblem

Mamamia22 said:


> Im assisting a friend. Is that permitted ? An earlier poster suggested that a tenancy would have to be created with a rent book issue after 30 days. I think I have established that was incorrect. Open to correction.


Tell us what your wonderful amigo decides eventually, there's enough advice given at this stage to satisfy an Oireachtas tribunal.


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## Mamamia22

Do you enjoy being unpleasant or perhaps you are in charge of shutting down discussions here ?My friend is trying to set up what will hopefully be a profitable business after years of difficulty. I’m trying to establish the ground rules in relation to possible tenancies. I have had differing advice from prtb and on here. If others have opinions I’m open to them.


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## wudyaquit

Mamamia22 said:


> Hi there wudyquit. You seem to know first hand the pros and cons. The rate on offer is c. 70 a night to include continental breakfast. He is considering a 4 bed B and B. Council would sign a contract. Insurance is only 600 a year so not much different to usual. Don’t think any kitchen health and safety regs have been raised by the council yet. Are there any inspections that the council would carry out ?


You're unlikely to have any inspections really. We've never had an inspection other than annual failte ireland inspection(which wouldn't apply). Although the previous owner had health and safety officer a couple of times. For a small bmb that wouldn't be a concern for me.
It's interesting that someone in the tenancy board is telling you their rules don't apply. Its no longer holiday accommodation after 30 days and most hotels will force guests to check out for a night after 30 days to avoid giving residency. If that were the case every landlord could just say their tenants are on holidays. Wouldnt be a risk id be taking based on the vague information from someone on the end of the phone. Not sure how you'd get clarity on that but once someone has residency, changing locks without proper eviction proceedings opens you up to litigation


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## Mamamia22

Yes I would have thought the same. However Id imagine most problems of a social nature might arise before 30 days elapses.


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## JMJR

@Mamamia22 
It seems that you are talking about a particular type of short term letting called 'Homesharing'.
- Up to 4 rooms with no more than 4 people per room.
- Must be in a RPZ. 
- It does not breach any existing permission
- Must fill in & return statutory notification.
- Owner or licensor must reside there full time.
I can't see any more limitation.
You should check for up to date regulations at source though as local council regulations may differ and legislation can be updated.

Citizens Information website- [I think this is incorrect, I think the 14 day rule does not apply]
_You are ‘home-sharing’. Home-sharing is where a homeowner rents a room or rooms in their principal private residence for short-term lets while they are also occupying it. (In this situation you can offer unlimited short-term lettings for less than 14 days at a time.)

Revenue Regulations
You will be liable for income tax and you may have a liability under CGT, even though it is your PPR. You will probably be under the limit for VAT. Good luck figuring out from this document what part applies to you!

Dublin City Short Term Letting_
This is the most recent publication that I can find.
Refer to PPR- Option A.

Regards etc


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## bipped

Leo said:


> B&Bs by the standard definition are short term. If they're there more than 6 months, they get full Part 4 rights.



OP said their relative has a large house with unused bedrooms. If a person is living in the same house as the owner they are licensees or lodgers and tenancy regulations do not apply.

The OP's relative can change up to 4 bedrooms in their PPR for a b&b without planning permission. If they are doing short term letting they may need to notify the local council in advance using the forms on council websites.


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