# Free Education in Ireland a Joke



## dodo (1 Sep 2008)

I have been getting the children's books ready for  new school year, between books, copies ,arts,crafts price for 3 primary school goes all under 8 was over  350Euro and I know the school will send out an envelope for me to fill with cash,I normally do fill the  envelope but this year things seem to be harder and tighter with the down turn, so I am not to sure at the moment, just wondering will this effect the way the school looks and  educates my children just a thought ,some people have said it does.
I Happen to have MIL here on holidays from Finland,which by the way is the number one educating system in the EU, the children do not start school until the year they turn 7, They  get for 1st and 2nd  level free books,copies pencils etc and also a dinner throw in for good measure.So I never want to hear the term we have free education in Ireland we don't


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## quarterfloun (1 Sep 2008)

I just spent much the same and I made a "contribution" to the school of €1250.00 to provide additional rooms in our new school. To be fair, I have no issue doing this as I got a good education (Makes me read too many Michael Moore books  ) but why should education be free - it is a priviledge and we are lucky in Ireland to have what we have. Sure it could be better but what we have is far better than many? We could all contri


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## dodo (1 Sep 2008)

quarterfloun said:


> but why should education be free - it is a priviledge



In my book education is a right and not a priviledge,The reason so many people throughtout the world have no schooling/Education is because it is not free,  Do you not think if people in the 3rd world got free education nd did not have to worry about the cost, how different their lives would be.


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## micmclo (2 Sep 2008)

dodo said:


> I normally do fill the  envelope but this year things seem to be harder and tighter with the down turn, so I am not to sure at the moment, just wondering will this effect the way the school looks and  educates my children just a thought ,some people have said it does.



It doesn't matter if you fill it with €5,000 or you don't return it at all, your children will still be treated the same as every other child.

You call the education system a joke but at the same time you're giving the school money that you don't even have to. So if you're out of pocket this time every year, did anyone force you to fill that envelope? Don't pay, problem solved.

I've read your post a few times, I reckon this is what you meant


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## dodo (2 Sep 2008)

micmclo said:


> It doesn't matter if you fill it with €5,000 or you don't return it at all, your children will still be treated the same as every other child.
> 
> You call the education system a joke but at the same time you're giving the school money that you don't even have to. So if you're out of pocket this time every year, did anyone force you to fill that envelope? Don't pay, problem solved.
> 
> I've read your post a few times, I reckon this is what you meant



I don't think our education system is a joke ,
I think the fact that people say we have free education  that is what I think is a joke, As far as I know we are 2nd only to Finland in the education league in the EU


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## micmclo (2 Sep 2008)

Yeah, my reply wasn't clear but I wasn't implying at all that the education system was poor. I was only messing one word from post 4 but it changed it entirely;

I was only confused that some people feel obliged to hand over a "contribution" and the complain about cost.
Don't pay that so you can use your money for books, arts and crafts and uniforms instead

Sure does anyone even know where those contributions go? I suppose to running costs for the school but it's not exactly clear or traceable.


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## Bubbly Scot (2 Sep 2008)

I agree. The education isn't a joke but calling it "free" is. My kids have been through both the public and private schooling system in the UK. In both their books, stationary etc. were provided, I just had to pay for trips and lunch although in the private school that was provided.

That said, the irish education is much, much better than what they recieved over the water so while I grunt a bit about having to pay for textbooks and even the jotters they write in it's something I grudgingly accept because of the standard of education they recieve. I just wish the schools were in better repair.

The school shouldn't treat your child any different if you don't pay the voluntary contribution although I have heard of one school in recent years who sent the kids out at home time with flouresent pink reciepts....if their parents had paid!


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## Caveat (2 Sep 2008)

Bubbly Scot said:


> That said, the irish education is much, much better than what they recieved over the water so while I grunt a bit about having to pay for textbooks and even the jotters they write in it's something I grudgingly accept because of the standard of education they recieve.


 
This is interesting. From quite a young age, I have always been told that we had a "better" education system than the UK. In later years I began to doubt it somewhat. 

Can you say why you think it is "much, much" better?

When you say the UK Bubbly Scot, do you differentiate between Scotland & England/Wales? Because the other "received wisdom" for me growing up was that the Scottish _highers (is it?) _system was considered preferable to O & A levels. But maybe that was because it was closer in structure to the Irish system.

Sounds encouraging that you think the standard of education provided here is worth the costs involved.


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## ophelia (2 Sep 2008)

In the process of putting my fourth through secondary school, and I just buy the books that are on the school book list which they receive in June as a matter of routine and necessity. However, the one thing that really 'gets my goat' is when (one week into the school year), I receive a letter from the French teacher or the English teacher very nicely saying something to the effect....... "I would prefer to use this book in class instead of ____________ . I hope this change of textbook will not caue any inconvenience". So far I have had to buy an English textbook and a French textbook, leaving the original two textbooks which I had purchased as an unnecessary expense.


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## ubiquitous (2 Sep 2008)

ophelia said:


> However, the one thing that really 'gets my goat' is when (one week into the school year), I receive a letter from the French teacher or the English teacher very nicely saying something to the effect....... "I would prefer to use this book in class instead of ____________ . I hope this change of textbook will not caue any inconvenience". So far I have had to buy an English textbook and a French textbook, leaving the original two textbooks which I had purchased as an unnecessary expense.



Did you complain to them, and point out the unnecessary expense caused to you?


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## csirl (2 Sep 2008)

> Finland,which by the way is the number one educating system in the EU,


 
Are the ranking posted on the internet? Who does them?


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## ophelia (2 Sep 2008)

Actually I have and I would again,  only they would have a perfectly reasonable excuse to offer me, like.............. "Yeah, their previous teacher was happy with that book but personally; and I'm a very experienced teacher, find that the students respond to this new book much more".
I bought The Merchent of Venice (as requested) last yr for my 2nd yr child and they were told to put it away for 3rd yr as 'the language was too difficult for them'. I was so annoyed I took that one up with the principal to be told that ....... "Yeah, children seem to absorb Shakespeare so much better in 3rd yr".
Now I was asked to buy a different version of the same play this yr. Aaaaaaaaagh, you just can't win!
Teachers change yearly and it really comes down to what book they want to use, regardless of what books the child has previously bought.


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## Caveat (2 Sep 2008)

What way does the curriculum work then? Surely a text is either on the curriculum or it isn't?


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## sam h (2 Sep 2008)

> "Yeah, children seem to absorb Shakespeare so much better in 3rd yr".
> Now I was asked to buy a different version of the same play this yr.


 
I didn't know Will was doing re-writes? 

The "revised editions" are crazy and I reckon the publishers do this on purpose to get us to buy the same book again.  We had to get a revised edition last year and I went through the book page by page & there was one small change....and it was actually a grammer error in the previous edition, so I & all the other parents had to fork out to pay for their error!!  

Luckily we don't get tapped for "voluntary contributions".


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## ophelia (2 Sep 2008)

sam h said:


> I didn't know Will was doing re-writes?


 
Very funny sam h!

In fact the play they were asked to buy this year, has almost every single line explained underneath. My daughter objects to this strongly and feels that firstly, she would like to read it straight through, as you would any book, secondly that it is undermining their intelligence and thirdly, what do we have a teacher for if everything is so over-simplified for us -  her words, not mine. Are these editions just canny tools for teachers? The previous edition was just a cheap little Penguin and she finds it far more interesting.


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## Purple (2 Sep 2008)

The average tax burden in Ireland is around 30%. It's 43% in Finland. 
When will people in this country realise that you can't have socialist services and capitalist taxes.
Basically in Finland the government takes your money and spends it on school books etc whereas in Ireland it lets you buy them yourself.
There are many examples of where this applies. Personally I think I will spend my money more efficiently than the government will.


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## truthseeker (2 Sep 2008)

In my own schooldays my parents objected strongly to this 'revised edition' business and I had to take on the secondhand books of my older sibling where appropriate. As such Merchant of Venice was a different edition to most of the rest of the class. It made no difference to the learning experience. There was a small bit of faffing about to find the correct page in class because my page numbers were slightly different, and occasionally I had to copy the homework question from someone else because my copy didnt have it but as Samh has said - Will is not doing rewrites, the play is the play.


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## efm (2 Sep 2008)

truthseeker said:


> the play is the play.


 
Nope, "the play's the *thing*..." _Hamlet_

BTW I agree that this revised version business can be ridiculous - when I was in school (when to be fair they were mere hedges) the teacher would know that different versions / revisions were being used and would accomodate both.


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## ClubMan (2 Sep 2008)

sam h said:


> I didn't know Will was doing re-writes?


Wasn't there some story about them having to change the title of the movie version of _Richard III_ because they feared that the _US _movie going public might go looking for the previous two installments in the franchise? (Or something like that).


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## rmelly (2 Sep 2008)

> I didn't know Will was doing re-writes?


 


ophelia said:


> Very funny sam h!


 
He may not have even written it in the first place:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakespeare_authorship_question


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## sidzer (2 Sep 2008)

I teach in a secondary school and our school does not treat children differently if they have paid the levy or not. Most teachers will not know or be interested in who has paid. Money is an issue for the management of the school.

However, in order to offer sports and other activities funds are always needed - so the money goes back to the students to offer them a better and more rounded experience of school.

Our levy is €60 for one or €80 for a family and about half of the pupils pay.

Children rarely take in a packed lunch they also seem to be flush with money... I used to buy second hand books in a local V de Paul shop and they were very cheap so parents should try this out as an option. Book schemes are good but they tend to hold onto books a bit too long even when a much better replacement is available.

I agree with poster above - if we want Scandanavian style luxury we must be willing to pay higher taxes...

In our school we have a fund for students who can't afford to pay for the basics. This is not advertised so if you are a parent who is struggling ring the school and in confidence they may be able to offer some extra supports.


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## monkeyboy (2 Sep 2008)

Purple said:


> The average tax burden in Ireland is around 30%. It's 43% in Finland.
> When will people in this country realise that you can't have socialist services and capitalist taxes.
> Basically in Finland the government takes your money and spends it on school books etc whereas in Ireland it lets you buy them yourself.
> There are many examples of where this applies. Personally I think I will spend my money more efficiently than the government will.



So true and I totally agree. Note that none of the raving complainers will acknowledge this fact however...


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## Purple (2 Sep 2008)

monkeyboy said:


> So true and I totally agree. Note that none of the raving complainers will acknowledge this fact however...


The other thing that they will not acknowledge is that a teacher at the top of the scale is getting around €100 an hour for each hour of classroom time.
No wonder there's no money left for books...


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## csirl (2 Sep 2008)

> However, in order to offer sports and other activities funds are always needed


 
I thought PE was a core part of the curriculum being paid for by the taxpayer?

One thing not mentioned on this thread is that the school system in Ireland is mostly a private sector monopoly over an essential public service with some cartel sympthoms. I wonder if the monopoly/cartel did not exist, would schools be changing textbook editions so frequently? An publically delivered education system would probably not change textbooks as often either.

Question you should ask the teachers/boards of management: what are you getting in return from the publishers for changing text books?


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## TarfHead (2 Sep 2008)

csirl said:


> Question you should ask the teachers/boards of management: what are you getting in return from the publishers for changing text books?


 
I can't prove it to be true or false but I believe, based on my own interaction with my childrens' school, that if the school are getting kickbacks from publishers, or suppliers of school uniforms, that the money is being ploughed straight back into the school.


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## csirl (2 Sep 2008)

> I can't prove it to be true or false but I believe, based on my own interaction with my childrens' school, that if the school are getting kickbacks from publishers, or suppliers of school uniforms, that the money is being ploughed straight back into the school.


 
What needs to be considered is that for the parent, is the collective cost of replacing the books every other year higher than the kickbacks they get? Would parents prefer to pay e.g. €50 extra in contribution rather than €200 extra on new books?


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## ophelia (3 Sep 2008)

Ok, so one week back in school and another book has to be replaced today. The class were told to buy a particular book and today the teacher announces that she doesn't like that book and hopes they didn't throw last years book away. She is the teacher they had last year for that subject so she must have ordered it but today she says "I don't know how that got on the list". I am exasperated........3 changes already to the book list.


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## ubiquitous (3 Sep 2008)

At the risk of bringing the discussion totally off-topic, why on earth is The Merchant of Venice still on the curriculum? If any of today's serious writers wrote anything as anti-semitic as the MoV, they would be castigated by civilised society, and rightly so.


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## truthseeker (4 Sep 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> At the risk of bringing the discussion totally off-topic, why on earth is The Merchant of Venice still on the curriculum? If any of today's serious writers wrote anything as anti-semitic as the MoV, they would be castigated by civilised society, and rightly so.


 
You cannot judge something written in a different era through the comtemporary glasses of todays society. I agree that is has an anti semitic flavour but at the time it was written it was considered acceptable - by the society of the time.


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## efm (4 Sep 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> At the risk of bringing the discussion totally off-topic, why on earth is The Merchant of Venice still on the curriculum? If any of today's serious writers wrote anything as anti-semitic as the MoV, they would be castigated by civilised society, and rightly so.


 
But is it not as educational to look at the MoV to point out the stupidity of such racist and anti-semitic work while at the same time appreciating the quality of the writing and the moral questions it poses?

You can't educate someone on the prevelance of racism without exposing them to examples of it.


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## ubiquitous (4 Sep 2008)

truthseeker said:


> You cannot judge something written in a different era through the comtemporary glasses of todays society. I agree that is has an anti semitic flavour but at the time it was written it was considered acceptable - by the society of the time.



At the risk of being facetious, paedophilia was accepted (some might say glorified) in classical Greek culture. Does that mean...



efm said:


> But is it not as educational to look at the MoV to point out the stupidity of such racist and anti-semitic work while at the same time appreciating the quality of the writing and the moral questions it poses?
> 
> You can't educate someone on the prevelance of racism without exposing them to examples of it.



The MoV ends with the villain, who just happens to be a Jew (sounds familiar?) being offered the choice of being executed or being converted to Christianity. I rest my case.


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## Purple (4 Sep 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> The MoV ends with the villain, who just happens to be a Jew (sounds familiar?) being offered the choice of being executed or being converted to Christianity. I rest my case.


 ...so what happened (or do I have to rent the movie?


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## ubiquitous (4 Sep 2008)

He took the soup


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## efm (4 Sep 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> At the risk of being facetious, paedophilia was accepted (some might say glorified) in classical Greek culture. Does that mean...


 
It means that modern day moral values should not be used to prejudge events in the past




ubiquitous said:


> The MoV ends with the villain, who just happens to be a Jew (sounds familiar?) being offered the choice of being executed or being converted to Christianity. I rest my case.


 
To be honest I'm not sure how your point addresses my point but maybe I'm just thick (or a Gentile)


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## ubiquitous (4 Sep 2008)

Okay I'll try again...



efm said:


> But is it not as educational to look at the MoV to point out the stupidity of such racist and anti-semitic work while at the same time appreciating the quality of the writing and the moral questions it poses?



Unlike say, Huckleberry Finn, the MoV does not present racism (or more particularly anti-semitism) as something stupid. The very essence of the portrayal of Shylock is that he is an evil man because he is a usurer and a Jew. Hence at the end of the play he is forced to renounce both his usury and his religion in order to avert his own execution. This is presented as a victory for the good guys.

The argument about the "quality of the writing and the moral questions it poses" reminds me of the joke about the guy who tells his girlfriend that he buys Playboy "for the articles".  There are surely at least 1 or 2 other comparable Shakespearean plays that are not contaminated by racism or anti-semitism in the way that the MoV is?



efm said:


> You can't educate someone on the prevelance of racism without exposing them to examples of it.



I am all for free speech and generally I'm not a fan of censorship. However I don't think that racist or sectarian hate material has any place on a mainstream secondary school curriculum.


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## Bubbly Scot (5 Sep 2008)

Caveat said:


> Can you say why you think it is "much, much" better?


 
Sorry for the delay, it was question I had to put my mind (and a bit of time) to before answering.

My opinion of irish schools, at least the ones I've been involved in, is that while the buildings are not up to any acceptable standard, the education is far superior to anything I have encountered elsewhere. I was surprised when my then six year old daughter came home from her new school with the same "Janet and John" book that I learnt to read from nearly forty years ago..I'm sure it was the exact same copy  The discipline is stricter, expectations higher and while the teaching methods can be a little "antiquated" I find they work. Most of the teachers I have been involved with here have a wonderful balance of "firm but nurturing".
At senior level I like the two cycles, Junior and Leaving Cert. In England and Scotland there are exams at the end of 4th, 5th and 6th years leaving students with a bewildering array of "O"s and "A" and whatever else has been introduced since I left.



> When you say the UK Bubbly Scot, do you differentiate between Scotland & England/Wales? Because the other "received wisdom" for me growing up was that the Scottish _highers (is it?) _system was considered preferable to O & A levels. But maybe that was because it was closer in structure to the Irish system.


 
Yes, it's "Highers" in Scotland but I understand the system has changed a little since I was in school. My children were educated in Scotland for about 18 months and I found the standard much higher than in England but not as high as in Ireland. Schools here seems to be more academically driven while in the UK there is a slightly more relaxed attitude. Hard to describe, sorry.

When I made an appointment with a principal here to enrol my eldest in his senior school he rather snootily informed me "Well at least she's coming from Scotland..it's a slightly better education that she'd have if she was coming from England" (I didn't put her to that school).



> Sounds encouraging that you think the standard of education provided here is worth the costs involved.


 
We left England and the private sector to move to Scotland and an area where there was no private school. Both children went to state schools and despite my reservations (and a brief flirtation with the idea of homeschooling as we weren't going to be there for long) I quickly re-discovered that Scotland  (where I was educated) could provide for "free" what the english private sector couldn't. The child who struggled to keep up with maths in a school more interested in how straight her socks were soon raced through the "sets", jumping four levels in the year and a bit she was there. In Ireland a fantastic teacher helped her further and she's just started in fifth year having got an "A" at Junior Cert. She's studying Higher level Maths and Physics. For the record, we had a long, long battle with the english school to get her the help she needed but since she didn't qualify as "remedial" they insisted she was just not too great at maths.

So, to surmise, perhaps because I was used to paying fees previously I didn't mind so much having to pay for books when I got here. I was just surprised. I wouldn't even consider sending my children to a private school here as there is simply no need.

Maybe I got lucky with the schools my children are in, even when we moved house I left them there as they were settled. My one and only financial gripe is that when my eldest daughter goes out to represent her school, we have to pay for the bus. I accept this for school trips but it gets quite expensive during the seasons where she's active with hockey, choir, debating,football..........the list goes on.


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## Caveat (5 Sep 2008)

Thanks for the response Bubbly Scot - v. informative.


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## cork (5 Sep 2008)

ophelia said:


> I am exasperated........3 changes already to the book list.


 

Very unprofessional & pointless.

Make a written complaint to Principal and Parents Committee.


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## Bronte (9 Sep 2008)

I agree, if it was me I'd refuse to buy any book until the school year had started and the school was sure of what books were needed.


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## Bronte (9 Sep 2008)

sidzer said:


> Children rarely take in a packed lunch they also seem to be flush with money...


 I'm intrigued what do they eat?


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## teachai (9 Sep 2008)

Bronte said:


> I'm intrigued what do they eat?



Surely they eat from the Tree of Knowledge


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