# RTÉ's "Room to Improve" -Dermot Bannon has Quantity Surveyor on board for new series.



## Patrick2008

I was watching the new series of Room to Improve on RTE last night and I was glad to see that Dermot Bannon has a Quantity Surveyor on board for this series. 

Its about time the series reflected the realities of how a project should be carried out with a competent Architect and Quantity Surveyor working on behalf of the Client

I hope all self builders take note and make this small investment in employing a Architect and Quantity Surveyor. 

I have to disclose that I am a Chartered Quantity Surveyor but my comments are not biased. 

The only thing I did not like was the Quantity Surveyor was portrayed as someone who is there to keep the Architect in line and to cut costs etc. 

In my opinion a good Quantity Surveyor is all about adding value to a project and to work in collaboration with the Client, Architect and Builder.


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## Shawady

I read an interview with Bannon at the weekend. He seemed to be bemoaning the fact that the banks are very strict with what they are lending clients now and he can't afford to go over budget. He said a few years ago he could go come up with a design that would go over budget and the clients could just go back to the bank for an extra 10k or so.
Didn't sound very responsible to me.


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## onq

Would you believe I missed it!

I was out at a meeting until nearly eight, then had a shedload of things to do when I got home.

Bannon is now legendary for cost overruns, but most of the projects I have seen him complete have offered very good value for what was delivered.

When clients start off with an unrealistically low budget, its always tempting to blame the architect.
The simple rule of thumb I have adopted is to multiply by first -

€80.00 per square foot = €861.12 per square metre

 and then 

€124 per square foot = €1345.50 per square metre

in the current economic climate.

That seems to be the upper and lower ranges for compliant work for simpler to more complex work using a contractor.

You will pay more for larger work and more adventurous designs with expensive materials.

The prices are being kept up for building materials, which have not come down significantly, although labour seems to be at subsistence levels.

If you're seeing savings of more than 10% claimed by direct labour self-builders, I would be worried that non-compliant work is being done, or they simply aren't totting up everything, or they have left some items unfinished and are claiming completeness.

I'd be interested in your comment on the above price ranges, Patrick.

ONQ.

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All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon                             as a defence or support - in and of itself -        should       legal        action    be      taken.
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## Patrick2008

ONQ. €80-€124/sq.ft is about right. Expect a very standard finish with low quality materials (upvc windows, concrete roof tiles etc) house that meets the very minimium in terms of current regs and more towards the upper end for a decent level of finish and insulation, airtightness etc. Typical exlusions are land costs, loose furnishings, contingency. 

Irish construction prices peaked in 2007 and that by the end of this year they will have fallen by 35%. There are increased costs with Sustainable/Renewable energy requirements from the Department of Environment and the latest revisions to the Building Regulations (and also having to comply with revised design standards in terms of new minimum areas and heights of dwellings). This is adding on average 10% to construction costs.

Even though labour costs have reduced since 2007 the same cannot be said for some material prices. Material prices have reduced somewhat but by less than might be expected since local manufacturers are experiencing smaller production volumes and imported commodities such as steel reflect global demand. Indeed, there has been an increase of between 10-20% in prices for materials such as timber, insulation, plasterboard, lead and other commodity related products. 

I do feel somewhat sorry for Dermot Bannon and other Architects out there as they are trying to get into a Clients head to visualise what they want. I also think it is important that Clients are introduced to materials such as zinc, copper etc as these materials can really enhance a house design when incorporated properly. Hence, that is why I said in my previous post that I hope the Quantity Surveyor in this series does not just look at the design in terms of a cost cutting excerise and look at it in terms of adding value. You dont need a Quantity Surveyor to tell you to get rid of the copper roof in order to cut costs.


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## dereko1969

I always thought the work he did was superb but he always seemed to have a blasé attitude to budget, which seems to have been confirmed in the interview referred to above.

As said, a lot of it is to do with managing expectations.


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## onq

+1 Derek

Client expectations are the hardest things to manage.
They often come to a development with unrealistic expectations of cost and time to delivery.
Many do not fully engage with the process of design, not wishing to consider issues before they reach site.
This leaves them wide open to being hammered by builders and subbies on variations due to changes left until far too late.
Then the architect gets blamed for cost overruns.

ONQ.

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All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon                              as a defence or support - in and of itself -         should       legal        action    be      taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in                              Real Life with rights to inspect and issue       reports    on     the         matters    at      hand.


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## onq

@ Patrick,

I should qualify my estimates by saying that costing for extensions will seldom be as low as €80 per square foot - they will be more expensive.

Additional cost in any extension is buried in load transference in both  the ground at the foundations.
E.g. where you are plugging in "seamlessly" by removing  all downstand beams to offer a continuous ceiling.

There is also additional cost within the 1st floor structure and if there are  openings in the rear and/or side walls.
Temporary works and propping may be required as well as significant alterations and re-routing of existing services.

The plan area associated with these kind of works may be minimal, so this doesn't translate directly to a area-related cost.

Any extension also has additional cost-inducing restrictions due to -

- ongoing occupation
- increased health and safety risks
- restricted working hours
- limited  site compound
- limited site access
- protection of adjoining property

Taking all this into account probably rounds up the cost of an extension to well over €100+ per square foot.


ONQ.

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All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon                              as a defence or support - in and of itself -         should       legal        action    be      taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in                              Real Life with rights to inspect and issue       reports    on     the         matters    at      hand.


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## Patrick2008

Apologies. I should have stated that I was talking about new builds. I am always very reluctant to use indicitive rates / m2 for any renovations, extension, rebuilding costs due to fire etc namely due to the reasons outlined by ONQ. No two renovations or extesions I have worked on are the same. Now I am not talking about a typical lean to extension onto the back of a house. However, if you are to use this crude method for budget purposes for an extension or renovation then it is more prudent to work from a figure of €100/sq.ft upwards but there are many factors to take into account such as backpropping, underpinning, wrking around existing services etc etc. 

Anyway going back to the heading of the original post I am delighted that Demot Bannon and his Clients are now working along side a Quantity Surveyor as I know the budget over runs used to frustrate viewers in the past. However, as has already been pointed out, some budgets were client driven in the first place and dermot Bannon had to try and design more for less so to speak.


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## onq

In a similar vein I think that managing client expectations is the first thing that any architect, including Bannon and the QS, should be doing.
Accepting unrealistic budgetary constraints day one is giving the client a stick to beat you with.

Even simply "not challenging" or "parking" them is not good enough.
At the risk of losing the job they should be addressed at the outset.

That was one reason I asked Patrick to post a list if cost headings in a recent post 
This is intended to help people get their heads around the various kinds of costs involved.


ONQ.

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All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon                               as a defence or support - in and of itself  -         should       legal        action    be      taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in                               Real Life with rights to inspect and issue        reports    on     the         matters    at      hand.


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## kkelliher

After the last series i wrote an email to the makers highlighting this very point and i am glad to see that they have increased the design team in the programme


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## onq

We might get a structural engineer on board next year...


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## Cyrstal

Are his designs not very 'samey' though?  

Every single episode I've seen has him turning the back of the house into a 'garden room', and having big huge glass doors that fold open?

Having said that the design is lovely, but the backs of the houses seem to always have that feature in it.


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## onq

That's a fair enough comment but its a general reaction about not placing the kitchen between you and the garden and thereby creating a dark, unwelcoming interior space.

To be fair to him he tries to ring the changes but this is a relatively acceptable means of extending.

I'd love to see some more pavilions in his work, where the new interior space is created away from the house and there is a n external space, a courtyard between them, with perhaps a further courtyard beyond, a series of courtyards, perhaps with some screened areas on the roof of the space.

Variety is the spice of life.

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon                               as a defence or support - in and of itself  -         should       legal        action    be      taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in                               Real Life with rights to inspect and issue        reports    on     the         matters    at      hand.


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## onq

Missed it again last night - working on my registration with the RIAI this month.

One-on-one meetings between professionals can be very effective, and the architects job is sometimes to know when to stand back and let people come up with cost-effective technical solutions.

Unless you empower other Design Team members, you will end up driving all meetings and discussions, when people of experience are perfectly capable of taking things involving their specialities along up to a point and then presenting the developed proposed solution to the architect for comment.

The alternative would be like a managing director sitting in on every staff meeting. It could actually hold back the work of the meeting in many cases and reduce the effectiveness of individual team members.

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon                                as a defence or support - in and of  itself  -         should       legal        action    be      taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in                                Real Life with rights to inspect and issue         reports    on     the         matters    at      hand.


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## becky

Cyrstal said:


> Are his designs not very 'samey' though?
> 
> Every single episode I've seen has him turning the back of the house into a 'garden room', and having big huge glass doors that fold open?
> 
> Having said that the design is lovely, but the backs of the houses seem to always have that feature in it.



I always think his kitchens are very samey.  Last week he showed the couple from Cork a kitchen which wasn't white and I was great he's changing the kitchen but no he gave them another Dermot kitchen.


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## Black Sheep

I agree with the samey kitchens, another ultra modern square box with large sliding doors on to patio which bears no relationship to the rest of the house.


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## onq

What are AAM readers views on the "ultra-modern" designs favoured by Dermot Bannon?
Would people prefer a more traditional design solution?

If so, in what sense traditional?
I'd love to hear about it.

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon                                 as a defence or support - in and of   itself  -         should       legal        action    be      taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in                                 Real Life with rights to inspect and  issue         reports    on     the         matters    at      hand.


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## Sue Ellen

onq said:


> Missed it again last night - working on my registration with the RIAI this month



Why not watch them on www.rte.ie/player


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## becky

It's hard to answer.  I'd come down on the modern but not ultra modern.   I don't want a busy looking kitchen but I do want it to look like it doesn't have to cleaned every five mintes.  My friend has a dermot kitchen which she loves but she wipes the empty mug of tea off you 2 seconds after you leave it down.  

Here is a link of some kitchen looks I like. Take the first, third and  sixth pic.  I do keep pics from mags of looks I like in  folder, very old school.

http://elliebalfe.blogspot.com/2011/09/home-loves-touch-of-aqua.html

I have no assocation with the blog except being a reader.


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## AlbacoreA

His designs are very samey alright. I like them. But he seems to go the expensive route with everything. I like how he opens things up and gets lots of light in. I like the clean uncluttered look too. 

But I think theres a case for a traditional design. They are often more practical and less harsh visually. When it comes to fittings and bathroom. Some of the modern fittings and designs, are not as practical as old ones. All these concealed fittings are often a nightmare to work on. For example those plunger plugs instead of the old style plug and chain. They seem to be designed to clog and break. 

I like a mix of new and traditional.


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## onq

No argument there.

I think one reason his work costs more is that he wants it to last, not look dog-eared in a year or two, which is what you tend to get if you trim too many costs.

The point of an architect isn't to race to the bottom, but to ensure that affordable value-for-money options are selected that give the best return.

Decisions based on short term savings tend to cost more in the long term with buildings because buildings are long term investments.


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## AlbacoreA

A lot of the cost seems to be his love of bespoke windows. Which I don't think is a longevity issue.


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## putsch

Cyrstal said:


> Are his designs not very 'samey' though?
> 
> Every single episode I've seen has him turning the back of the house into a 'garden room', and having big huge glass doors that fold open?
> 
> Having said that the design is lovely, but the backs of the houses seem to always have that feature in it.




Totally agree. Watching this programme has been a learning experience for me in terms of knowing what I do not want and first on my list would be anything that Bannon wants. As well as the above its the atrium or cathedral ceiling type thingy on every project - comical - I live in a house with one of these - cold. cold, cold. You can get a bright spacious house without this.......

Its a cookie cutter samey style that I never liked but at least until 3 or 4 years ago had the advantage of being "new". Now it looks dated as well as samey. He'll need to vary his act if he wants to keep the interest. I can't but laugh when he tells the client what they can't have. Sorry mate - the client is the one who has to live with it.


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## onq

If the client doesn't want to take professional advice its on their head, but don't let them come back whinging when it all goes pear shaped because they didn't listen to their architect.


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## onq

AlbacoreA said:


> A lot of the cost seems to be his love of bespoke windows. Which I don't think is a longevity issue.



Getting _cheap_ bespoke windows _is_ a longevity issue. 

And if you don't properly support those bi-folding doors, you're in trouble...


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## AlbacoreA

I wonder how many wish they'd stuck to their budgets now though...


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## onq

(nods)

If they don't value investing in their home, then possibly.
But there seems to be an underlying issue with this particular issue.

Most laypeople on their first build grossly under-estimate building costs.
Their experience of pricing of major items relates more to motor cars at that stage in their lives.

My experience suggests they think anything over €40,000 is a "Luxury" item when it is shell-only 40sqm territory.
And apart from this economic disaster we're in, property investment tends to return to you in time - most cars just depreciate.

Prices at the moment seems to range (anecdotally on the first one) from€60 for direct labour
€80 for basic contractor build
€100 for shell only reasonable quality.​Labour prices are at rock bottom but materials prices are not.


ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon                              as a defence or support - in and of itself -         should       legal        action    be      taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in                              Real Life with rights to inspect and issue       reports    on     the         matters    at      hand.


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## RKQ

I like the show and think it has improved since it was extended to 60 minutes. I was also getting annoyed with the huge budget over-runs.
I accept the Architect mostly gets the blame for this and this blame is sometimes unfair as clients start with an unrealistic budget. To be fair, Bannon has been very blias in the past.

The QS will add realism to the process even if the programme makers are making her out to be the badie. Thankfully the unrealistic scene of clients crying at the design meeting is gone. I do good work but nobody ever cried

Past shows can be viewed on RTE player at a time a suit you. 1st episode is available until 5th October at http://www.rte.ie/ten/listings/105619_tvod_Room_to_Improve


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## AlbacoreA

onq said:


> ...
> If they don't value investing in their home, then possibly...



What does that mean??? 

If a project isn't doable on the budget then don't do it. It doesn't matter what industry or sector you are in.

It will be interesting if Bannon is more often on budget in this series than the others.


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## onq

AlbacoreA said:


> What does that mean???
> 
> If a project isn't doable on the budget then don't do it. It doesn't matter what industry or sector you are in.
> 
> It will be interesting if Bannon is more often on budget in this series than the others.



Formulating a budget is something that needs careful consideration.


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## onq

RKQ said:


> Thankfully the unrealistic scene of clients crying at the design meeting is gone. I do good work but nobody ever cried



Mine never stop crying - they all want what they cannot afford and they want it now!

Careful attention to phasing and finishing and spreading the work over years - slow architecture - is the route to success and fulfillment.


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## Vanilla

Any one see this weeks episode? I thought the window design at the front of the property was horrible too but what better alternative is there when you are left with that awful 60's/70's rectangular shape to fill?


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## Ceist Beag

Whatever about the look of the windows, I was amazed that the clients didn't seem to know what they would look like until they were in! Shouldn't it be the job of the architect to ensure the client consulted with the windows suppliers during the selection process to ensure they were happy with what was going in, well before anything was ordered? Maybe he did and they weren't bothered until it was too late but it didn't seem that way from watching the show.


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## Vanilla

No, it didn't seem as if they had ever seen the window design. But the design was one I wouldn't have expected Dermot Bannon to choose either- in earlier programmes he often gave out to his clients for choosing window designs with too wide frames.

I liked the island but I didn't think it was quite as innovative as he seemed to think!


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## Pique318

I thought Dermot washed his hands of any responsibility for the windows and just said 'paint them'.

I'd be seriously annoyed if I had to put up with painted PVC windows instead of having them delivered in the correct colour in the first place.

Poor showing by him in my opinion.


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## Docarch

Ceist Beag said:


> Whatever about the look of the windows, I was amazed that the clients didn't seem to know what they would look like until they were in! Shouldn't it be the job of the architect to ensure the client consulted with the windows suppliers during the selection process to ensure they were happy with what was going in, well before anything was ordered? Maybe he did and they weren't bothered until it was too late but it didn't seem that way from watching the show.


 
Agreed.

The windows and external doors are probably the most expensive single element in a build. If the client does not want to do or look at anything else, I always suggest/insist they at least visit suggested window showrooms (with me) to educate themselves in terms of the window design, finishes, operating systems, etc., I am proposing.

Having said that, the windows in last nights programme were pretty ture to the original design.  It was just the colour.


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## Shawady

Vanilla said:


> I liked the island but I didn't think it was quite as innovative as he seemed to think!


 
I thought the island unit in the photo he showed them looked nice. I wasn't mad about the one they finally built with the cheaper type of wood.


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## runner

Didnt like the 'island' thing at all!
Enjoyed the program, was like an episode from a soap with all the different characters - and I mean that in a nice way!


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## ney001

Was very impressed with his design last night - mainly because my own house would be very similar to their original cottage so it was interesting to see what could be done.  Didn't like the island myself but pretty much everything else was great.  The builder came across very well as well - I don't know if all builders would be so friendly and accommodating .  Maybe it was just me but 'Aunty May' didn't seem to have any input at all to the rest of the house including the kitchen which I was surprised at but obviously she has given over the house to the family.


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