# Child with Diabetes-school now refusing to take her



## nod (23 Nov 2006)

We're at our wits end this morning.

We have a 4 year old girl who has Type 1 Diabetes, i.e she needs injections of insulin every day. She started in our small local rural school in September and the school were well aware of her condition.Through the school we had applied for a Special Needs Assistant (SNA) in advanvce but were refused.

We received a letter this morning fron the schools Board of Management stating that they could no longer take the child !.The only way they will take her is if we get an SNA,for which we have already been refused !.
_In effect she is being refused and education,does this sound right to you?_

_We are very annoyed as you can imagine and are currently persuing all avenues possible_


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## Ciaran (23 Nov 2006)

Board's insurance need to 'indemnify' staff members who are prepared to give child injection - simply means that all staff are aware of who is licensed to give injection/necessary medication. This information, along with emergency numbers/insulin pens etc. and a photograph of your child need to be prominently displayed in the staffroom. You could offer to attend a staff-meeting to explain exactly what form of diabetes your child has and what needs to be done on a regular basis/in an emergency. I don't think your school has a right to do this - I may be wrong but I think your case is partiuclarly strong as they had already admitted her.


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## Gone Fishin' (23 Nov 2006)

I would suggest one of the parents guarantee to visit the school every day to administer the necessary injections. I would not, in any circumstance, expect a teacher to give a child an injection.

One really must look at this situation from the school's point of view and understand their stuation.


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## askalot (23 Nov 2006)

Gone Fishin' said:


> One really must look at this situation from the school's point of view and understand their stuation.



May I be so bold as to suggest that one should look at the situation from the child's point of view!


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## demoivre (23 Nov 2006)

Gone Fishin' said:


> I would not, in any circumstance, expect a teacher to give a child an injection.



Nor are they obliged to according to [broken link removed].



> *Introduction*
> There is growing concern about the extent teachers are becoming involved in the administration of various medicines to pupils. INTO is aware of cases whereby members are being requested to administer serious forms of medication, which in normal circumstances would require some degree of medical knowledge or experience. Principals and teachers generally do their utmost for children who are ill and are motivated by the desire to protect the safety and welfare of any child in their care.
> INTO has requested the employing authorities to ensure that areas of responsibility in relation to the administration of medicine to pupils are clear in all circumstances. This leaflet gives clear guidance to members:
> • about instances where it is not appropriate to administer medicines to pupils; • about the limitations of any "requirements" which may be made of them. Teachers will always be prepared to help when an accident or an emergency situation arises eg., when a child has a serious accident and parents need to be contacted or an ambulance called. INTO recommends that procedures to deal with such emergency situations are clear and are made clear to staff and parents.
> ...


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## demoivre (23 Nov 2006)

askalot said:


> May I be so bold as to suggest that one should look at the situation from the child's point of view!



I wouldn't be prepared to give a child other than one of my own lads an injection. I sympathize with the op's problem but in today's litigious society I can understand the school's position.


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## path (23 Nov 2006)

Sometimes a school can recommend that a child is withdrawn from the school on Health and Safety Grounds but a school cannot deny education to a child unless there is a school nearby which can educate your child.

You must get your medical reports and maybe a phycological report and show that your child is a danger to herself without the SNA and appeal the last decision to your local Special Needs Educational Officer.

Insurance has nothing to do with this situation just a battle between the school and the Dept of Education.

Children with a Physical Disability are as far as I am aware are entitled to SNA hours


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## nod (23 Nov 2006)

Maybe I need to give you more info on this matter.

The teachers(only two) have never given or were asked to give her insulin injections,we completely understand the schools point of view on this matter. We haven't even asked them to check her Blood/Glucose levels. Her teacher offered to check her if she ever felt she may be having a Hypo (BG's too low),this has happened on a couple of occasions.
Even after receiving this letter today we offered to check her ourselves in future and were told that we would have to sign a form obsolving the school if she ever ended up seriously ill,e.g a coma. We cannot,nor should any parent for that matter,sign a form absolving the school of her care.

We are in discussions with the Dept of Health,they are competely behind us,we have just finished a letter of reply to the BOM and want this resolved immediately.

It is a wider problem in the country today,the government will not give SNA's for Diabetic children,its absolutely crazy and should be resolved as a matter of ungency,every child is entitled to an education,full stop.


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## Carpenter (23 Nov 2006)

demoivre said:


> I wouldn't be prepared to give a child other than one of my own lads an injection. I sympathize with the op's problem but in today's litigious society I can understand the school's position.


 
Surely administering such an injection requires a certain level of skill and competency; leaving the issue of litigation to one side I don't suppose that many adults would have the confidence or competency to administer such injections to a child other than their own.


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## Judybaby73 (23 Nov 2006)

Get on to the schools inspector or indeed the www.ncse.ie The SNO (special needs organiser in your area should be able to advise)


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## nod (23 Nov 2006)

Thanks JellyBaby
We have already been refused an SNA and were told this morning that it is the school who have to apply for an SNA,all of this will take some time,we need her back in the school ASAP. Also,the Dept of education said that if she is out of school for more than 21 days the law is being broken,not by us,but by the school who have expelled her for something outside of her control.
We just want to get he back ASAP,she is a very insecure child,her two best friends are in her class of 5,it will set her back alot if she miss's this year.


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## ajapale (23 Nov 2006)

You should also contact . 76 Lower Gardiner Street, Dublin 2.  Telephone 1850 909909. They are very friendly and helpfull.

Modern insulin pens are very easy to use and not at all like the old syringes. The needles are very short and very fine.

You should talk to your GP and endocrinologist to find out what types of pens to use.

Even if the issue of injections is solved there remains the issue of the glucometer to monitor blood sugar throughout the day.

aj

ps did the insulin pump you posted about here a few months ago not work out?


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## ajapale (23 Nov 2006)

I urge you to speak to the diabetes federation people and your GP / endocrinologist _*first*_ and explore how the problem might be resolved. Talk of campaigns, solicitors and politicians is a little premature at this stage- In my opinion.


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## nod (23 Nov 2006)

Hi ajaple,
We did indeed get the insulin pump and,after much fustration,it is working very well. Her BG readings have leveled out significantly and she feels much better in general. So the issue of insulin injections doesn't even arise,she only needs insulin when she eats (Bolus) and this can be administered by us as she only eats at set time,ie break and lunch times.

You are right that campaigns and such are the last resort,if the school is "forced" to take her back she may be the only one to suffer in the long run,people have long memories. We would rather solve this by discussion,it is a tiny school,no more than 40 children and two teachers where everone knows each other. We are very upset at the manner it was decided to suspend her,the meeting was last night,we were not informed,and the letter handed to my wife this morning,it was a bolt out of the blue. 

We have since replied to the letter,we'll see what happens.....


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## Gone Fishin' (23 Nov 2006)

Is it possible to share an SNA with another child?


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## MOB (23 Nov 2006)

"We cannot,nor should any parent for that matter,sign a form absolving the school of her care."

Hi,
This is a difficult situation, but the above statement from the parent seems to have been ignored or glossed over by a lot of people commenting here.  I think it may go to the nub of the issue.  It is certainly possible that the facts are as follows:

1.  The school are perhaps saying  that they cannot take responsiblity for a serious medical incident arising from the child's Diabetes. It is certainly arguable that - in the absence of properly qualified personnel -  the school should be entitled to take this position.  I think myself that Diabetes is common enough that it should be possible to train a teacher to cope (after all, parents are taught how to cope all the time), but nevertheless, in these litigious times, there is an arguable case for this position (if that is the school's position).

2.  I don't think this is quite the same as saying that they are absolved of the child's care.  The school would - I assume - have the same duty of care to this child as they have to any other child.  It is perhaps just that the school are not prepared to assume an extra duty of care as a result of the diabetes.

3.  If parents have been asked - and have refused point blank- to sign a disclaimer\indemnity, then I am not so sure that it is fair to cast the school in such a bad light.  The school's action may well have been caused by this refusal and on legal advice.

Perhaps the deadlock then simply comes down to the exact wording of the disclaimer\indemnity? If parents acknowledge that the school does not have to take responsibility for managing the diabetes, can they not sign an acknowledgment to this effect? If they won't, is it necessarily fair to blame the school?


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## nod (23 Nov 2006)

MOB,appreciate your input,



> It is certainly possible that the facts are as follows:
> 
> 1. The school are perhaps saying that they cannot take responsiblity for a serious medical incident arising from the child's Diabetes. It is certainly arguable that - in the absence of properly qualified personnel - the school should be entitled to take this position. I think myself that Diabetes is common enough that it should be possible to train a teacher to cope (after all, parents are taught how to cope all the time), but nevertheless, in these litigious times, there is an arguable case for this position (if that is the school's position).


The school and its teachers are not being asked to do anything relating to her Diabetes,it is just that they are not willing to accept responsibility if she becomes seriously ill during school hours.Where do you draw the line,should all parents of children be made sign this disclaimer,after all any child could could collapse for have a fatal fall,surely this is what insurance is for.




> 2. I don't think this is quite the same as saying that they are absolved of the child's care. The school would - I assume - have the same duty of care to this child as they have to any other child. It is perhaps just that the school are not prepared to assume an extra duty of care as a result of the diabetes.


As above,they should not discriminate against a child with Diabetes.If someone works in Company and has Diabetes do they have to sign a disclaimer,not the same situation,but I doubt it


> 3. If parents have been asked - and have refused point blank- to sign a disclaimer\indemnity, then I am not so sure that it is fair to cast the school in such a bad light. The school's action may well have been caused by this refusal and on legal advice.


We were only informed by word of mouth whilst the letter was being handed over that we possibly could sign a disclaimer,we haven't refused to do so.The schools action was to have a BOM meeting last night and decided to supend/expell our child as a result of her Diabetes,no other reason



> Perhaps the deadlock then simply comes down to the exact wording of the disclaimer\indemnity? If parents acknowledge that the school does not have to take responsibility for managing the diabetes, can they not sign an acknowledgment to this effect? If they won't, is it necessarily fair to blame the school?


This issue is not causing the impass,the school has decided their course of action. Anyone whom we have to spoken to in the Dept of Ed. and read the letter to are all in agreement that the school cannot take the stance they have.With a little dialogue these matters could have been resolved,instead they chose (not us!) to take the hard line


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## ajapale (24 Nov 2006)

.



> *Question  from Anonymous:*
> My son is 2 and a half and has Type 1 diabetes since he was 7 months old. He uses an insulin pump. He has just started pre-school. I'm wondering if he is entitled to a Special Needs Assistant as the pump is very intensive and time consuming. At the moment I have to stay in the pre-school to check blood and administer meal blosu's as the staff are not yet comfortable to do these things. A friend of mine whose daughter has just started school and also uses a pump has just gotten a SNA.     *
> Answer :*
> Each school has its own policy with regard to a Special Needs Assistant. The SNA is appointed to a child based on their individual needs. I am not aware of any precedents when it comes to preschool but if your child’s needs are great and you can not full fill those needs, it may be worth applying for a assistant for your child during school hours.
> ...


[broken link removed]



> *Question  from Anonymous:*
> Are diabetic children entitled to a special needs assistant when they start school?
> *Answer :*
> No, children with diabetes are not entitled to a special needs assistant when they start school. The school has a duty of care to children and it is up to the school how they chose to resource that duty.
> ...



rollercoaster.ie is an excellent site which has dealt with issues surrounding children with t1 diabetes. see [broken link removed] for example.


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## Brendan Burgess (24 Nov 2006)

*Posting Guidelines*

*Askaboutmoney is primarily for questions and answers.*

This is a very tricky thread to moderate. I am reluctant to move it to Letting Off Steam as there are specific questions and answers and advice. However I have deleted the posts which have been of a political nature. 

Please avoid Letting Off Steam in this thread. If frequent posters want to discuss the wider political and moral issues involved, they can do so in a separate thread in the Letting Off Steam forum. If people continue to post Letting Off Steam issues, we will close the thread. 

Brendan Burgess
Administrator


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## nod (24 Nov 2006)

Just and update for anyone whos intersted

Had a meeting with school principal this morning.Will meet with Board of Management next week with a  person from the Dept. Of Education acting as intermidary.School will push again for SNA,in the mean time their looking for temp. SNA,hopefully someone local.She agreed that the letter was completely out of order and felt everyone was pressurised at the BOM meeting to agreed with the chairman who took this very strong stance.Child still not allowed back to school until hopefully after the meeting.
Parents are completely outraged and are arranging a meeting about this and other matters,this is not something we agree with,we want this matter solved without rancor and argument.The person arranging the meeting is on the BOM! and is appalled by the whole thing.


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## lorna (24 Nov 2006)

here in london, my neighbours sister, she has to go to the school once/twice a day to inject her daughter.
isn't there new high tech gadgets out now like something the child can wear and she gets her jabs automatically at set times via a timer ???


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## RainyDay (25 Nov 2006)

You should have a word with the Equality Authority to see if they consider the schools actions to be contrary to Equal Status legislation, which outlaws discrimination on grounds of a disability.


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