# Public Service is Recruiting Again



## Leper (1 Jul 2014)

I notice the general Civil Service is recruiting on a large scale again.  Advertisements appeared on newspapers last week.  

There has been little or no talk about these jobs which will be in thousands.


----------



## mandelbrot (1 Jul 2014)

Leper said:


> I notice the general Civil Service is recruiting on a large scale again.  Advertisements appeared on newspapers last week.
> 
> There has been little or no talk about these jobs which will be in thousands.



How do you know there'll be thousands?!

Granted, clerical officer is numerically the most common grade, but due to the historical practice of promotion on seniority, it also has a lower age profile relative to the higher grades.

Also, given that the "gold plated" PS pension is worth less than 8k on top of the contributory OAP for a retiring CO, there haven't been huge swathes of retirement at that grade, as there have at more senior grades.

And given the ability to leverage technology to reduce the need for numbers of clerical staff, redeployment rather than recruitment might be the method of choice to address shortages identified.

Hundreds of jobs, definitely. A thousand plus over the life of a panel, most likely. But thousands, as in 3-4, might be pushing it


----------



## Leper (1 Jul 2014)

1. There has been no recruitment in the Civil Service for years.
2. It is a similar situation with promotions which will have to have vacancies filled from existing staff.
3. Natural Wastage is telling (people retire or die).
4. Many have left the Civil Service because of relatively low wages.
5. Applications for Career Breaks, Paternal Leave, Maternity Leave, etc have never been higher.
6. There is need for a large conveyor belt of applicants as posts will have to be filled fairly fast.
7. Overtime, Agency staff being employed is too costly and bad value compared to personal responsibility of a clerical officer in situ.

At an informed guess there will be at least two thousand vacancies. It ain't rocket science, you know!


----------



## mandelbrot (2 Jul 2014)

Leper said:


> 1. There has been no recruitment in the Civil Service for years.* Not entirely true; I 've competed in 2 open competitions for appointment to the civil service since 2008, and there have been several others where I work, both open recruitment and confined promotions.*
> 
> 2. It is a similar situation with promotions which will have to have vacancies filled from existing staff. *See 1 above, not entirely true that there haven't been promotions, and yes they do create vacancies, but not an enormous number, and remember redeployment is the order of the day...*
> 
> ...


 
So now you've gone from "thousands" to 2,000...!

Accepted, technically 2,000 is "thousands", but only just - Methinks you had a higher figure in mind originally...!

I don't want to appear negative in any way, I'm simply saying that I reckon 2,000 is at the very upper end of the number of full-time CO's likely to be recruited into the civil service over the 2-year life of a panel.


----------



## MrEarl (2 Jul 2014)

I hope they have taken this opportunity to modify terms and conditions for all future staff, to ensure better value for the State, while also paying decent salaries.


----------



## Leper (2 Jul 2014)

1. Come on Mandlebrot, we're splitting hairs here. Obviously the medical service has to recruit doctors on an ongoing basis and also the occasional nurse.  This is the first time in years that the Civil Service is recruiting on a large scale.
2.Again, we're splitting hairs. "Not entirely true" means true.
3.Newsflash! There is more to the public service than Revenue.  There are areas in the PS that have ageing staff.
4.Have a look at the Clerical Officer grade and its low wages plus long increment scale (14 years I think!).  These have caused many people to leave.  See letter in Irish Times last Saturday where a new Clerical Officer with 3 children will easily qualify for Income Supplement from Dept Soc Wel.
5.If it is cheaper to hire staff then what is stopping the Civil Service?
6.There are job vacancies on a wide scale to be filled. Of course the conveyor belt system will have to be used and kept well oiled.
7.I reckon 2000 is a target on the lower end of this recruitment drive. Let's forget about technicalities and what you think that I think.

For the first time since the recession started I reckon there is some kind of hope for Ireland Ltd.  Although, wages are low in this recruitment drive, at least, the whole issue gives out some hope.  Without hope we have nothing.  The issue will drive some decent usage into our economy and if you cannot see the win/win situation, I am at a loss.

Mr Earl, have a look at the entry salary scales for the new clerical officers. None of them will be booking trips to the next World Cup Finals.


----------



## shoestring (2 Jul 2014)

After 12 years in the private sector I joined the public sector in 2007 as a clerical officer and quite reasonably, I think, anticipated moving up the ladder. Hasn't happened due to the recruitement ban. 
Its hard to keep morale up especially as some of the staff in higher grades are not fit for purpose or just generally incompetant with no drive or ambition to improve the efficiency or morale of their workplace. 
I would discourage anyone else from leaving the private sector to come into the public sector on a lower grade at the moment at least until grade 4 and 5 jobs become available which is not going to happen any time soon.


----------



## STEINER (2 Jul 2014)

shoestring said:


> I joined the public sector in 2007 as a clerical officer and quite reasonably, I think, anticipated moving up the ladder. Hasn't happened due to the recruitement ban.
> 
> I would discourage anyone else from leaving the private sector to come into the public sector on a lower grade at the moment at least until grade 4 and 5 jobs become available which is not going to happen any time soon.



I think a few years before you joined it was a lot easier to progress.  I know a few people who joined as CO's in 1999, spending a year or two at most at that.  They are HEO or equivalent now.


----------



## MrEarl (2 Jul 2014)

Leper said:


> ....Mr Earl, have a look at the entry salary scales for the new clerical officers. None of them will be booking trips to the next World Cup Finals.



My comment was not specifically referencing salaries, but the entire terms and conditions of employment (to include tea breaks, pensions, sick days, days off to go to the Galway Races or whatever ) - I'm all for paying the civil servants more, when they give genuine increased productivity where needed etc.  I'd rather see the younger, lower grade civil servants paid a bit more and lose some of the "fringe benefits" or work a few extra hours perhaps...


----------



## mandelbrot (2 Jul 2014)

MrEarl said:


> My comment was not specifically referencing salaries, but the entire terms and conditions of employment (to include tea breaks, pensions, sick days, days off to go to the Galway Races or whatever ) - I'm all for paying the civil servants more, when they give genuine increased productivity where needed etc.  I'd rather see the younger, lower grade civil servants paid a bit more and lose some of the "fringe benefits" or work a few extra hours perhaps...



I've never worked in an office job where we didnt get paid tea breaks.

A CO paying A class PRSI gets a pension, would get a pension of c.7k on top of their state contributory pension.

Sick leave has been drastically reduced, why don't you inform yourself what it is and let me know how much less they should be allowed.

Days off to go to the races?


----------



## gipimann (2 Jul 2014)

The civil service working day was increased by 2hrs 15mins last year.


----------



## Leper (2 Jul 2014)

I started this thread to give somebody sometime somewhere some hope. Already, it has turned into a Public Service Bashing Scene.


----------



## Purple (3 Jul 2014)

It’s good to see the state recruiting Civil Servants again. It’s an indication of a return to more normal times. Civil Servants provide much needed services for the state. Without a good Civil Service a state cannot function. This is not however a boost to the economy or anything like that as state employees do not generate wealth like primary producers or those in the export sector. That’s not Public or Civil Service bashing, it’s just the way it is. Lots of people work hard in jobs that provide essential services but don’t boost the economy. That doesn’t make them or those jobs less important.


----------



## tallpaul (3 Jul 2014)

Purple said:


> It’s good to see the state recruiting Civil Servants again. It’s an indication of a return to more normal times. Civil Servants provide much needed services for the state. Without a good Civil Service a state cannot function. This is not however a boost to the economy or anything like that as state employees do not generate wealth like primary producers or those in the export sector. That’s not Public or Civil Service bashing, it’s just the way it is. Lots of people work hard in jobs that provide essential services but don’t boost the economy. That doesn’t make them or those jobs less important.


 
So are you saying that money spent by public servants in the Irish economy for goods and services does nothing to create wealth in ireland?? I'm sure that there are many businesses in this country that welcome the personal expenditure by public servants.

Mr. Earl: the 1980's have called and asked for their Civil Servants stereotype back...


----------



## Purple (3 Jul 2014)

tallpaul said:


> So are you saying that money spent by public servants in the Irish economy for goods and services does nothing to create wealth in ireland?? I'm sure that there are many businesses in this country that welcome the personal expenditure by public servants.
> 
> Mr. Earl: the 1980's have called and asked for their Civil Servants stereotype back...


It's tax and spend. The money is taken out of the in taxes and returned through expenditure by PS/CS employees. There's no net gain. I'm not saying that they don't add value or do good work, it's just not economic value.


----------



## Sunny (3 Jul 2014)

Leper said:


> I started this thread to give somebody sometime somewhere some hope. Already, it has turned into a Public Service Bashing Scene.


 
It's like being back in 2008 again.


----------



## mandelbrot (3 Jul 2014)

I suppose it's an important lesson for people like me, in the PS, to learn - there'll ALWAYS be a cohort (a noisy one at that) who will never be pleased no matter how much wages, conditions, pensions etc. are cut by.

I supported Croke Park & Haddington Road, but those measures have done more than enough in my view. Morale is now on the floor.


----------



## demoivre (3 Jul 2014)

Purple said:


> It's tax and spend. The money is taken out of the in taxes and returned through expenditure by PS/CS employees. There's no net gain.



There is because the expenditure multiplier is greater than the tax multiplier.


----------



## RainyDay (3 Jul 2014)

Leper said:


> At an informed guess there will be at least two thousand vacancies. It ain't rocket science, you know!



Let's be honest, it's not a well-informed guess.

The Civil Service consists of about 36,000 people, most of whom work directly in Govt departments, or a few select agencies like Revenue, OPW, PAS. This is about 3,000 down from 2008.  The latest round of recruitment is indeed for the civil service. If you think that Govt are going to let the numbers get anywhere near the 2008 number, you are wrong. 

I've no idea what numbers are intended to be recruited in this round. My uninformed guess is that it will be lucky to hit 3-figures. If you want to have a well-informed guess, inform it by giving PAS or Dept PER a call.


----------



## mandelbrot (3 Jul 2014)

RainyDay said:


> Let's be honest, it's not a well-informed guess.
> 
> The Civil Service consists of about 36,000 people, most of whom work directly in Govt departments, or a few select agencies like Revenue, OPW, PAS. This is about 3,000 down from 2008.  The latest round of recruitment is indeed for the civil service. If you think that Govt are going to let the numbers get anywhere near the 2008 number, you are wrong.
> 
> I've no idea what numbers are intended to be recruited in this round. My uninformed guess is that it will be lucky to hit 3-figures. If you want to have a well-informed guess, inform it by giving PAS or Dept PER a call.



It'll comfortably hit 3 figures for the civil service alone, I'd have no doubt about that - if one assumes that roughly 40% of the CS headcount is made up of Clerical Officers, that's about 14,000. As no new CO's have been hired since pre-2008 that would suggest that, at a minimum (assuming 2% natural wastage p.a., which is very conservative given the age demographic) at the very least 1,500 of the 3,000 fall in numbers is at CO level.

So even if the intention is to replace only 30% of the vacated positions you'd be talking about 500 jobs.

That's an educated, but still relatively uninformed, guess!


----------



## Leper (3 Jul 2014)

Many are forgetting that (for example) a nurse can make more money in the private sector which accounts for the large exit of nurses from the public scene.  There will be a minimum of 500 nurses alone recruited.  Then we need more Gardaí.  I haven't got to the Dept of Social Welfare yet.  Then there is the rest of the civil service. Agency staff will have to get the hammer too.  So minimum 2000 clerical officer jobs will be on offer.  

The economy needs this amount for an injection of much needed cash too.


----------



## mandelbrot (3 Jul 2014)

Leper said:


> Many are forgetting that (for example) a nurse can make more money in the private sector which accounts for the large exit of nurses from the public scene.  There will be a minimum of 500 nurses alone recruited.  Then we need more Gardaí.  I haven't got to the Dept of Social Welfare yet.  Then there is the rest of the civil service. Agency staff will have to get the hammer too.  So minimum 2000 clerical officer jobs will be on offer.
> 
> The economy needs this amount for an injection of much needed cash too.



Your username is starting to make sense!!

Nurses aren't clerical officers, Gardai aren't clerical officers.

With respect, you clearly don't understand what you're talking about...


----------



## Palerider (4 Jul 2014)

mandelbrot said:


> Your username is starting to make sense!!
> 
> Nurses aren't clerical officers, Gardai aren't clerical officers.
> 
> With respect, you clearly don't understand what you're talking about...



I think that is splitting hairs, the OP's original point is that there will be more state jobs coming, speculate as to where or how many but a panel is going to be formed, I have a friend a SNA, that is a Co post, there are over 200 jobs coming there for a September launch, that was in the papers.

This is a good news story worthy of a mention and gives hope to plenty of young people and those older folks looking to reinvent, let's not split hairs.


----------



## shoestring (4 Jul 2014)

My bog standard minion clerical officer guess is it'll be a 3 figure amount. The whole idea was to get rid of staff, they've done a fairly decent job on that. People are doing more work than they used to IMO (the workload has been spread from the positions lost).
Having said that it would be just typical of the politicians in this country to give the go ahead hire everyone again at the slightest upturn. 
I wonder if that happens will I get my 2.5 hours, with more money and less work back? Here an educated guess on that one: No!


----------



## Sunny (4 Jul 2014)

I think there will be 147 jobs.


----------



## STEINER (4 Jul 2014)

sunny said:


> i think there will be 147 jobs.



+1


----------



## RainyDay (4 Jul 2014)

STEINER said:


> +1



So that would be  148?


----------



## Leper (4 Jul 2014)

mandelbrot said:


> Your username is starting to make sense!!
> 
> Nurses aren't clerical officers, Gardai aren't clerical officers.
> 
> With respect, you clearly don't understand what you're talking about...



1. My username is what I chose; whether it makes sense to you are not does not bother me.  Clearly, it bothers you.
2. I know nurses and Gardaí are not clerical officers.  They are public service and their representative bodies were at pains they were front line staff unlike clerical workers.
3. I full well know what I am talking about (your "with respect" is not with respect) - cop yourself on!

Palerider is right and I presume even for you mandelbrot I do not have to repeat.

There is a rising tide and it will lift all ships, be part of it. There is a glimmer of hope, let's grab it.


----------



## jobseekr1 (4 Jul 2014)

As a poster who is very intrigued by this advertisements and put in an application form, I would be interested in some feedback from anyone who can help, can better advise.
I am in my early thirties, out of college ten years, and worked for most of the time in the private sector.
My concern is that I may be perceived as being too ‘old’ for this sort of role, purely because I would imagine many CO’s would have joined straight after college or school.
Am I wrong to think that ‘seniority’ is the be all and end all when it comes to promotion in this sort of role? IE would I effectively be perceived as an 18-year-old?
I am somewhat concerned by Shoestrings insight, but valuable as it is.
Also, can those not working in the service realistically get in at the middling grades or realistically, if you can’t show you joined a day after college/school are you wasting your time?
How likely are EO roles likely to come up? And how can one demonstrate relevant private sector experience to enter the service at the that grade?
My issue is I would have to take a major pay drop to enter this level, and similar to Shoestring, I would be doing so with the intention of moving on/going for potential promotion in time, and would like to think there would the chance of increasing salary etc.
If people could advise? I am very interested in the fact that the service is recruiting again, it is a positive sign, but there are pros and cons too. Many thanks.
Also, I am I right in thinking an AO salary scale begins at circa 30k and EO slight less?
Is there any sort of a public sector tax calculator online that allows one to check for increased levies that public servants pay etc?


----------



## mandelbrot (4 Jul 2014)

Leper said:


> I notice the general Civil Service is recruiting on a large scale again.  Advertisements appeared on newspapers last week.
> 
> There has been little or no talk about these jobs which will be in thousands.



Lets go back to the start - what ads in the papers last week are you talking about? I'm entirely open to correction, but the only large scale recruitment I saw advertised recently is for Clerical Officers. Hence as far as I can see, your prattling on about nurses and Gardai is fairly irrelevant..?


----------



## Leper (5 Jul 2014)

Thanks you Mandelbrot for giving so many people so much hope.  For your reality have a look at Jobseeker1 post just above yours.

Therefore, I will address Jobseeker1's post.
You are not too old in your 30's to join the civil service.  Opportunities to join above the clerical officer level will come later, but you will be faced with much internal competition (probably greater than you think).  

One person I know joined the PS as a clerical officer aged 49.  He had worked in the private sector and for a while he was self employed (10 fulltime + others parttime).  He saw the writing on the wall before the recession and competed for a clerical officer competition and was successful.  

He had difficulties over his first 3 months as a clerical officer.  He was the oldest in his section.  He was the only male working.  His manager bullied him and had bullied others.

This guy had been through the mill and bullying was easy-peasy to him.  He recorded everything and within his first 100 days built up an unassailable case against his manager.  He brought her to her knees and earned the respect of everybody else.  The manager would have been suspended and sacked but for his intervention.

Competition for junior managers came three years later and he competed and won.  He does not regret his decision to join the PS at its lowest clerical level.  He brought a wealth of experience and information to a dull enough job.  He dragged the area into modern times.  The foregoing is a huge paraphrase of what happened.

Competition for the clerical officer posts will be great.  If you are successful you will see that you are paying extra in pension levies (as against towards your own pension).  If you are not willing to compete then you have no chance.  If you do compete and are successful, at least, you will have options.


----------



## mandelbrot (5 Jul 2014)

Leper said:


> Thanks you Mandelbrot for giving so many people so much hope.  For your reality have a look at Jobseeker1 post just above yours.



This is like trying to get a stroppy teenager to have a reasoned discussion.. where have I tried to suck the hope out of anyone?!?

It now seems again that you are talking just about the CO competition - it's a very simple question and not unreasonable surely, to ask are you talking just about that or are there other competitions announced last week that I didnt hear about? Genuine question, and you won't answer it.

I'm NOT trying to be negative about the competition or the jobs - simply trying to temper what I see as an unrealistic suggestion that thousands of new COs will be hired from the upcoming competition.

I think it's a good opportunity for people with an interest in making a career in the civil service, to enter the service as CO's - my former PO entered service as a CO in the mid 90s and through open competitions as well as confined promotions, made it to PO level in less than ten years.

In my own case, I joined since the recession started (albeit not at CO), successfully competed and progressed up a grade within almost the minimum of time, and I personally know several others who've done the same.

No doubt about it, looking at the age profile of the civil service, there will be very good and relatively frequent opportunities for progression over the next 10 years.


----------



## jobseekr1 (5 Jul 2014)

Thanks Leper for your insight, and honesty, much appreciated.
I've taken your points on board, and as you said, if you are not in you can't win.
I'll see if I progress to interview etc first.
Is there anywhere online with tips for CO/EO/AO competitions?
Many thanks.


----------

