# Husband redundant and my employer going bust



## ClubMan (29 Aug 2003)

Need some practical advice please. My husband was made redundant a couple of weeks ago and it now looks as if my company is going down the tubes.  Desperate situation. Is there any practical stuff we can do re. mortgage, claiming tax back, entitlements.  Has anyone been in this situation and how did you cope financially? There are probably lots of questions I should be asking but can't think clearly.


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## rainyday (29 Aug 2003)

*Re: Husband redundant and my company going bust*

MABS would be a good starting point for help.


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## ClubMan (29 Aug 2003)

*Re: Husband redundant and my company going bust*

Yes - trite as it may sound try not to panic and consider contacting _MABS_ as suggested. If you have specific questions - or a whole bunch of them - you might like to post them here to get some feedback.


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## Savy (29 Aug 2003)

*Re: Husband redundant and my company going bust*

Eagle,
Repeating with the others have said, you have some time on your hands to take control of things.

Dont bury your head in the sand and hope it will all work out.
The quicker you can start sorting out your financial matters the less stress you will feel and the easier the next weeks/months will be until you are both in new jobs  

Best of luck
S


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## Eagle (29 Aug 2003)

*Advice*

We have no debts apart from mortgage.
Monthly outgoings are standard utility bills, SSIAs, Car Insurance, Food and general living expenses.
If my company is in dire straits and I see the writing on the wall - should I look to be made redundant? They won't be able to pay me off but is it correct that I can get statutory redundancy from Government - I am here 10 years so that would be about €10k [pittance after all I have put in but anyway!].
We owe about €80k on mortgage - should we talk to provider about paying interest only for say 6 months?
Are we both entitled to claim back our tax for the year to date?
Are there any extra allowances that we would be entitled to if we are both unemployed. We have one child.
Any practical advice welcome?!


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## Savy (29 Aug 2003)

*Re: Advice*

Eagle,
If as you believe your company is going to go bust why would you decide to leave voluntarily(unless you are taking up a position in another company).
To me it would make more sense holding on and claiming whatever redundancy payments are going.


You can claim back tax on a month by month basis.
My sister-in-law did this, perhaps a call to the revenue or visit at www.revenue may be able to help here.

A lot of what you can do depends on things like prospects for getting new jobs, redundancy amounts, savings, loan repayments,etc....

S


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## rainyday (29 Aug 2003)

*Re: Advice*



> Are we both entitled to claim back our tax for the year to date?



It depends on whether you work again for the remainder of the tax year (up to Dec 31). Your tax for the year to date was calculated on the assumption that you would continue working for the full year. If you have e.g. 3 months with no income, that you have probably overpaid your tax, so you will be entitled to a *partial* refund.


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## Eagle (29 Aug 2003)

*Advice*

What if I know there is def. no chance of redundancy payment?
Prospects for getting new jobs - who knows - we are both 'middle management' and were earning say €100k between us ........ little did we know what was around the corner.
We have no loan repayments - apart from mortgage of €600 per month.
Husband cleared €10k redundancy - we had put this aside for rainy day and were going to live off my salary! We have no other savings apart from SSIAs - both contributing full whack at the moment - would be very relucant to let these go.


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## rainyday (29 Aug 2003)

*Re: Advice*



> What if I know there is def. no chance of redundancy payment?


I can't see what advantage you would get by leaving before the company closes (unless of course you get another job). If the company fails, you will get the minimum statuatory redundancy from the Govt when it fails. But the Govt won't step in to pay while the company is still running.



> We have no other savings apart from SSIAs - both contributing full whack at the moment - would be very relucant to let these go.


I understand your attachment to the SSIA's as the return available is unbeatable, but if your income drops significantly, you are going to have to face up to reducing your outgoings significantly too - IMHO if is a choice between food on the table or SSIA's, they may well have to be eliminated or cut back.


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## Brendan Burgess (29 Aug 2003)

*Re: Advice*

Eagle

Can I clarify what you mean by "my company"? On first reading, I assumed that it was your company and that you were a director. Now I am not so sure.

If you own the shares in the company or if you are a director, then you should be very careful about trading while insolvent. 

If you are not a director, you don't need to worry. 

If you are still getting paid, you should hang on. You will get statutory redundancy and the Government may also pay company's share of it, though I am not sure of this. 

Talk to your lender long before any mortgage repayment bounces. If you are unable to meet a repayment make sure that they cancel it or else they charge you more for a bounced direct debit.

I would probably continue with the SSIA and remortgage the house to meet your living expenses.  If you get really stuck for cash at some stage, you can cash the SSIA. The penalty is more or less equal to the Government top up.

Brendan


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## ClubMan (29 Aug 2003)

*Re: Advice*

A few points:
<!--EZCODE LIST START--><ul><li>Do you have mortgage payment protection? This may be relevant if either or both of you lose your jobs. I personally don't think it's good value or merited in most cases but if you do have it then it obviously makes sense to take advantage of it if at all possible!</li><li>For some information on the sort of "unemployment tax reclaim" that _Savy_ mentions see . I've been there too... :|  </li><li>The  might give you a heads up on some of the issues and entitlements. In particular the  summarises your entitlements in this area. If the company cannot pay redundancy then the DETE redundancy payments section can explain their role in paying (possibly partial) redundancy entitlements. The DETE are very responsive and helpful and you should call/email them with your queries directly if necessary and they will help you out.</li><li>If you do decide to give your lender forewarning of your situation then just make sure that they don't take the opportunity to screw you by selling you some additional financial products, extending the term of your loan or applying additional charges unnecessarily! If you owe €80K then I presume that you own a reasonable amount of equity in the property yourselves which puts you in a stronger bargaining position than somebody who is only a year or two into their mortgage.</li><li>Use the [broken link removed] to calculate your outgoings and get an idea of the minimum income that would cover these.</li><li>Once again - don't panic, it's not the end of the world even if it may seem like it!</li></ul><!--EZCODE LIST END-->
Hope this helps.


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## Eagle (29 Aug 2003)

*Advice*

Thanks everyone - some solid advice. 

Brendan - it's not my company - I'm an employee. We are still getting paid - in a fashion e.g. 50% of each of our salaries was paid today with 50% to follow early next week. No reason 'at the moment' to believe that it won't follow. A lot of nervous people in here.


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## ninsaga (29 Aug 2003)

*Re: Advice*

"Husband cleared €10k redundancy - we had put this aside for rainy day"

Jeez Rainyday - You don't come cheap do You

ninsaga


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## Eagle (29 Aug 2003)

*Ha Ha!*

Ninsaga - if I wasn't so uptight at the moment I'd think that was very funny ...... really!


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## nogser (29 Aug 2003)

*Re: Husband redundant and my company going bust*

Eagle

Given your circumstances moving job before you are pushed seems like a very good idea to me.  It takes time to find a new job and it is far easier to get one when you are in employment than not (from personal experience).  Continuity of income is surely more important than the relatively small amount of statutory redundancy.  Your post seem to suggest that your husband is stiil not working?  If so is this by choice or lack of available employment?

Nogser


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## rainyday (29 Aug 2003)

*Re: Husband redundant and my company going bust*

Hi Ninsaga - But you don't know what 'services' were provided for the €10k, do you?


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## ClubMan (29 Aug 2003)

*Re: Husband redundant and my company going bust*

*it's not my company - I'm an employee*

I've changed the title of the topic to reflect this so.


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## Eagle (29 Aug 2003)

*Advice*

Husband just coming to end of 3rd week of unemployment - def. not by choice! August was very quiet but hopefully things will pick up dramatically in September ... I have started looking too - reckon I'd be mad not to!


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## ClubMan (29 Aug 2003)

*Re: Advice*

Check out the unemployment tax reclaim stuff above in case it's of relevance in this situation. When I availed of it I was cohabiting but not yet married in case that makes any odds. Make sure that you are getting the "best" arrangement in terms of [broken link removed] (usually joint/aggregated assessment - separate assessment is similar but may leave tax to be reclaimed at year end - assessment as two single persons is often the least favourable due to certain credits/allowances being non-transferrable). Make sure that your husband is claiming any available welfare benefits in particular [broken link removed] (PRSI linked not means tested). I personally wouldn't hang on mainly/purely in the hope of a redundancy payout either. However if you are there if/when it goes belly up then obviously you should stake your claim for your entitlements. Hope this helps.


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## ninsaga (29 Aug 2003)

*Re: Advice*

Eagle,
         My advise would to to take up another job if You could & not to wait for any possible redundancy package.

Its a lingering death situation & You obviously could do without the stress for what could be a drawn out period.

You need to secure income & not have to think about whether teh paycheck will come through this week or not. 

Having said that I do appreciate that its not easy out there at the moment on the job market.

Ninsaga


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## capaill (30 Aug 2003)

*Re: Advice*

Hi Eagle

I have to concur with others' recommendations to look for a job now rather than hang on until you get a redundancy package.

Having been in a similar boat myself where I was made redundant and a few months later my wife was facing an uncertain future, I can appreciate the stress you are going through.  I was lucky enough to find employment 6 months later but it was a worrying time.  However, looking back I see some positive sides.  It forced me to focus on where and what I wanted from my career and what type of job I wanted.  Plus I got to watch all of the World Cup in peace without having to take time off work<g>

So try and take the opportunity to figure out what you want to do with your career;
Do you want to work for another company in the same role?
Do you want to work in a different role?  If so how can you achieve that?
Is it an opportunity to use some of your skills to start your own company/be self employed?

Try not to panic.  Take a good hard look at your finances.  See what you can and cannot afford and budget accordingly.  If the worse comes to the worse, be sure to inform your lending agency early of your predicament and perhaps review your SSIAs as previously outlined by Brendan.

Best of luck

C


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## ClubMan (30 Aug 2003)

*Re: Advice*

*Plus I got to watch all of the World Cup in peace without having to take time off work<g>*

Me too! I also got married but that's another story...


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## capaill (30 Aug 2003)

*Re: Advice*

*I also got married but that's another story*

Well I was also changing nappies for my 2 week old son at the same time ..:eek


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## Brendan Burgess (31 Aug 2003)

*Re: Advice*

Eagle

When I suggested you should hang on, I was suggesting that you should hang on and not leave without a job. It would, of course, be better to find a new secure job. 

If you start looking now, you can see what the job market is like. You just might get your timing right and get a new secure job and a redundancy payment.


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## Eagle (3 Sep 2003)

*Clarification on Redundancy Payments*

Confused ..... if the company does not close down - but lets say half the staff go - who pays the redundancy? In my case with 10 years service I will be entitled to about €10k - but the company will def. not be in a position to pay this. Will the government pay if even if the company is still trading?


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## rainyday (3 Sep 2003)

*Re: Clarification on Redundancy Payments*



> In my case with 10 years service I will be entitled to about €10k - but the company will def. not be in a position to pay this.



Assuming that the figure you quote is the minimum statuatory redundany, this will become a debt due to you from the company when they make you redundant. You (& your colleagues) will be able to pursue this debt just like any other debtor - you may be able to push the company into receivership if they don't have the funds to meet the debt.

I would imagine that the Directors would be running risks of prosecution for reckless trading if they were to continue to trade while ignoring debts due to staff for statuatory redundancy.


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## Eagle (3 Sep 2003)

*Redundancy*

Thanks Rainyday - your reply makes me think that I could escape 'the chop' - as I am one of the longest here and therefore one of the most expensive to let go.


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## BG (6 Sep 2003)

Eagle,

Have you contacted MABS as suggested?  they could give alot of assistance to you in this situation.
Has your husband signed on for Unemployment Benefit?
Contact Dept. of Soc. and Family Affairs seeking a "Contribution Record" in regard to yourself.  This is to make sure your employer has paid PRSI up to date.  Otherwise claims may be difficult or prolonged.  Do you have loan repayment protection insurance on your mortgage?  This is very important to establish NOW. As the procedure to be followed must be adheared to.  If you are made redundant aswell you may be entitled to assistance from your local Community Welfare Officer (CWO) who is located through your Health Board and not Social Welfare.
consider setting up a new bank account for all your "essential payments" to be made through.  Know how much this account needs each week/month and then make sure the amount is paid into that account.  When you first do your budget everything will seem "essential", so here's a rule of thumb I use:  Complete the budget (see MABS site) then going through each item ask "what is the worse that can happen if I don't make this payment? Can I live with that consequence?"  
I strongly suggest contacting your local MABS office at your earliest convenience.


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## Homer (7 Sep 2003)

*What colour is your parachute?*

Hi Eagle

Have you heard of the above book?

It's aimed at people who have either lost their job or are thinking of changing jobs.  It contains a lot of very practical advice and should be available from most large bookstores, and possibly your local library.

While it's written by an American and some of the advice relates specifically to the American job market, the general principles and approach can be used by just about anyone.

I hope everything works out for you and your husband.

Regards
Homer


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## Eagle (8 Sep 2003)

*Book*

Someone else mentioned that book to me last week - must get my hands on a copy!


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## Eagle (11 Sep 2003)

*DDay tomorrow*

Looks like tomorrow is DDay. What questions do I need to have at the ready - what should I be pushing for?


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## ClubMan (11 Sep 2003)

*Re: DDay tomorrow*

*Looks like tomorrow is DDay.*

In terms of what? Redundancy?


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## Eagle (11 Sep 2003)

*DDay*

Yes


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## ClubMan (11 Sep 2003)

*Re: DDay*

OK - sorry to hear that - I know what it feels like! You should definitely read up on you statutory entitlements as outlined in the various links I posted earlier in this topic and go into any meeting with a reasonable understanding of these (print stuff out if neccessary). After that, unless there is some sort of collective bargaining (unionised or ad-hoc) involved in getting some sort of deal for all employees then it's basically up to you to push for the best deal for you personally I suppose. Is the company in a position to pay statutory and/or additional redundancy benefits? Have they designed a package for all employees? It's hard to know what to advise in this situation other than aim as high as the circumstances are likely to allow you. Apart from your statutory entitlements you could ask for money, payment in lieu (e.g. office/computer equipment etc.), time/resources to allow you look for a new job etc. Hope this helps. Good luck!


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## Eagle (11 Sep 2003)

*Notice*

I presume as well as statutory redundancy they have to pay me notice?


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## ClubMan (12 Sep 2003)

*Re: Notice*

Redundancy and notice are separate but there are statutory rights in both cases (explained by the links/sites I posted earlier - check the _OASIS_ and _DETE_ sites). Statutory entitlements are pretty basic so if at all possible try and negotiate for more than these if there is any chance of the company being able to pay. Your contract of employment should also specify a notice period (which may be longer, but cannot be less, than the statutory period) for which you should be paid in lieu. If the company is going to liquidate then things may get a bit sticky and they may not be in a position to pay some or all of your staturory or other entitlements. However the _DETE_ have a scheme for paying (possibly partial) statutory redundancy in the case of a company not being able to meet their obligations in this respect otherwise. If in doubt about yor statutory entitlements call or email the _DETE Employment Rights section_ and they will probably be able to appriase you of your rights. They are very helpful! Hope this helps.


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