# Accident at Work: Should the employer be responsible for out of pocket expenses?



## ellamac (4 Jul 2006)

Hi, My husband had an accident at work two weeks ago via another employee being clumsy... and my husband has a hairline fracture in his shoulder and has torn the muscles in his shoulder and arm.  

It went into the accident report form and there are witnesses confirming accident etc.

There is no question of sueing, that's not going to happen but his employer has not paid him and they are 'waiting' until they receive social welfare cheques and also they are not going to cover his GP and physio expenses which in two weeks are over €500! I find this truely hard to believe, as this is all we want covered and for my husband to return to work.

My husband has also been told that he will have a weakness in that shoulder from here on so surely they should look after him, as I presume he would have a case if he went to claim!?

Should the employer be responsible for out of pocket expenses?


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## rkeane (4 Jul 2006)

*Re: Accident at Work*

Why not sue?  Is it because it will make things icy?  Seems to me it will be hard to work there if they are ripping your husband off.  He doesnt own them anything.


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## Vanilla (4 Jul 2006)

*Re: Accident at Work*

We can't say if your husbands employers are liable from the detail given, but it seems possible. Is your husband a union member? If so, get them on side. If not perhaps you might think of obtaining some legal advice on his position.


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## dublady (4 Jul 2006)

*Re: Accident at Work*

Sorry to hear about  your husband. 

He can claim medical expenses back. Have a look here
http://www.welfare.ie/publications/sw34.pdf

Also if the injury persists he can apply for Disablement Benefit.
http://www.welfare.ie/publications/sw31.pdf

Hope this helps.


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## ellamac (4 Jul 2006)

*Re: Accident at Work*

Thanks for your responses. 

Rkeane - thanks for we really don't want to sue because my husband loves his job and would work 14 hour shifts at the drop of a hat - which is all the more reason why the way he is being treated is so annoying! But we don't want to go down that road at this stage anyhow.

Vanilla - thank you.  He is actually going to contact his union today.  We really tried to do everything amicably so that things would go smoothly but it's not proving to be that way!

Dublady - again thank you.  I did enquire about these benefits today and hopefully we can get some financial relief.  But then again, work have to sign off on them and put down that it was an occupational injury and I don't think they will be in a hurry to do so! 

I just can't believe in this day and age that employers won't look after those employees that are dedicated and loyal to a fault and instead we need to go down the route of unions and maybe legal advice!! Thanks again all.


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## Murt10 (4 Jul 2006)

*Re: Accident at Work*

Instead of claiming Disability Benefit your husband should claim Occupatiional Benefit fropm Social Welfare. see link. He should apply for Injury Benefit within 21 days of becoming ill, otherwise he may lose benefit. By making the claim he is protecting his future claim for Disablement Benefit.


http://www.welfare.ie/schemes/ill/oib.html

SW are not interested in who is at fault for the accident. They are only interested to find out if the accident happened at work.  

They will write out to the employed looking for details of the accident. If they don't get a reply, or if the employers version of events differs from the employees, they will send out a Social Welfare Inspector to the Employer and the  Inspector has the power to interview anyone, inspect any records, either in connection with the claim or any other matter that he wants to enquire into. 

The SW investigation is totally separate from a civil action that you might want to persue either now or at a later stage.


Murt


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## ellamac (4 Jul 2006)

*Re: Accident at Work*

Hi Murt - thanks for your reply.  I actually only found out about this benefit this morning, as his employer told us to claim sick benefit instead but luckily I had filled in the section on Occ injury so I think we can still claim for the Disability benefit. 

Any idea how long it takes for it to come through?


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## Murt10 (4 Jul 2006)

*Re: Accident at Work*



			
				ellamac said:
			
		

> Any idea how long it takes for it to come through?




Sorry, no idea. The claim will be treated as a normal DB (sickness) claim first and provided your husbands record is fine, it will be put into payment quite quickly.

Only then, will they look at the look at the Occupational Injury part of it. As you can imagine that may take a lot  longer, getting reports from your husband, getting reports from the Employer and interviewing either or both parties as necessary.


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## dodo (4 Jul 2006)

*Re: Accident at Work*

The reason they will not pay sick money is because then they would be accepting responsibilty I bet it is company policy not to pay if someone has an accident on their premises. He of course  should sue that is why companies have insurance. If it goes to court and the judge sees that they refused to pay him his wages that will look bad on them. I think he should sue and then look for another job there are many jobs out there to choose from.


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## gnashers (4 Jul 2006)

*Re: Accident at Work*

Could you make a claim through the personal injuries assesment board(http://www.piab.ie/). it might seem less confrontational than going through a lawyer if he is trying to maintain a good relationship with his employer.

Gnash


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## Purple (5 Jul 2006)

*Re: Accident at Work*

We pay all expenses plus wages (inc. overtime averaged over the preceding 6 weeks) if someone in injured in work. The idea that his employer is not doing this is deplorable! If you husband will suffer a long-term disability then his employer should compensate him as well. The reality is that the employer is liable in most incidences, even if the accident is the fault of the employees, duty of care and all that.
What this shows is that your husbands employer does not value him or have any respect for him or the commitment he shows. Your staff are your most valuable asset and should be treated accordingly.


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## NHG (5 Jul 2006)

*Re: Accident at Work*

Here Here Purple - You are spot on!  My thoughts as well as an employer.  Your business is only as good as the employees that you have working for you.  If you cannot show an employee the respect and support when he/she needs it how can one expect an employee to show respect to an employer!

Don't hesitate on the insurance front that is why we pay insurance.  I think that you have a couple of years to claim (not sure) but make sure that everything is done by the book at this stage to make sure your claim would be valid.

Best of Luck to you both, its a stressful time without this kind of worry.


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## ellamac (5 Jul 2006)

*Re: Accident at Work*

Thank you to you all - you have offered valuable advice and it is appreciated! He is going to visit the company doctor today.... so fingers crossed that they will re-consider.

Maybe they might develop a conscious within the next few days!!


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## Purple (5 Jul 2006)

*Re: Accident at Work*

Make sure he does to his own doctor as well and has his own copies of X-rays and medical reports. Also make sure he gets his own copy of the report that the company doctor produces. He may be the company doctor but he is still bound by doctor-patient confidentiality, he should ask the doctor (playing innocent) if he will send a report to the company.


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## nelly (5 Jul 2006)

*Re: Accident at Work*

As someone working in the area for rather large company i can say that the employer should meet all costs if it is a work injury -  they should be putting their hands up and saying they will meet the costs until your hisband is back to full health. 

The PIAB is an alternative to the courts that cuts out the legal eagles and is working well for others. If he is still out of pocket i would recommend he meet manager and tell him its time now to move to this level. It will cost you nothing, he can still work while the claim is being pursued and best of all it is a short time frame for cases to be assessed. It may not even come to the board. 

It always amazes me that amongst all the fellas falling "into" potholes there are far more honest people like your husband who unfortunately are not treated fairly when all they want is what is due to them by law.


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## nelly (5 Jul 2006)

*Re: Accident at Work*



			
				Purple said:
			
		

> Make sure he does to his own doctor as well and has his own copies of X-rays and medical reports. Also make sure he gets his own copy of the report that the company doctor produces.



Good advice 



			
				Purple said:
			
		

> He may be the company doctor but he is still bound by doctor-patient confidentiality, he should ask the doctor (playing innocent) if he will send a report to the company.



Company doctor prepares file for company and this is available to company - patient confidentiality is extended to the company as far as i know.


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## ellamac (5 Jul 2006)

*Re: Accident at Work*

Hi Purple - thanks for response.  He brought all his medical reports, certs, perscriptions etc with him this morning and company doctor said all was legite and that he will see my husband again in two weeks.  Of course, my husband never asked about the report..... I'm sure it will be genuine. 

Nelly - thank you also and I agree 100%. My husband has received a number of phone calls from his work colleagues telling him to claim, because they did!! They weren't even injured and he just can't understand why they did it! It's something that he really doesn't want to do but I've got to the stage now where, after they receive the doctors report and they still do not meet us half-way - well then we need to consider it strongly! 
I also contacted his employer yesterday and asked if my husband could get a copy of the accident report form but was told that its in a book and that my husband can see it when he returns to work - surely we should be entitled to get a copy of it?


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## Carpenter (5 Jul 2006)

*Re: Accident at Work*

I've just completed a course in Health & Safety, related to the construction industry.  Aside from the facts regarding who's at fault your husband's employer should be paying him until the case is investigated and settled.  We were advised by an experienced claims handler that employers should *always* pay an injured worker and any medical bills whilst they are off work- indeed any insurer would insist on this being done as not to do so results in the type of bad feelings that you are now unfortunately experiencing and this can lead to an expensive and protracted settlement in the event of a claim.  Check out PIAB for more details.


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## ellamac (5 Jul 2006)

*Re: Accident at Work*

Hi Carpenter - thanks for response and advice.  It turns out that the employer are going to pay my husband a basic pay, less social welfare and less shift allowance and overtime - so in one way they are giving it to him and in another they are taking it away! They still won't pay for medical expenses, even though the company doctor agreed that they should pay them! At least getting half his salary is something!!


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## Purple (5 Jul 2006)

*Re: Accident at Work*



			
				nelly said:
			
		

> Company doctor prepares file for company and this is available to company - patient confidentiality is extended to the company as far as i know.


 True, but AFAIK he can only report on  issues that relate directly to the accident. Any other issues that come up in conversation or questions asked by your husband about the experiences that the doctor has had with similar cases cannot be included in the report. The doctor can of course decline to answer these type of questions.


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## dodo (6 Jul 2006)

*Re: Accident at Work*

He should insist on getting his shift rate as this is his work pattern. They know this and are just been mean about it. He should ring them up  and point out he has bills that need paying and he depends on correct rate of pay from his job. I worked for many yrs in a  software company  and if one was out sick through accident at work, if you where on shift you got paid your shift. I know sick pay is usually up to the employer to pay or not to pay so if they are going to pay then they should pay shift.  





			
				ellamac said:
			
		

> Hi Carpenter - thanks for response and advice.  It turns out that the employer are going to pay my husband a basic pay, less social welfare and less shift allowance and overtime - so in one way they are giving it to him and in another they are taking it away! They still won't pay for medical expenses, even though the company doctor agreed that they should pay them! At least getting half his salary is something!!


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## ajapale (6 Jul 2006)

Hi Ellamac,

Ive moved this post to the Work forum as it is essentially a "Health and Safety at Work" issue.

aj


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## ellamac (6 Jul 2006)

Hi ajapale - thanks for that.

Hi dodo - thanks for advice but at least we are getting something.  From good advice received on this site, we are going to arrange a meeting with them next week and hopefully try to resolve it once and for all - should be fun!!


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## col (6 Jul 2006)

It is an interesting situation.Technically an employer is only responsible for an accident at work if he was at fault for the accident such as a slippy floor or a machine without a guard. He cannot be held responsible in most circumstances if another employee was clumsy.If the accident happened outside work on a footpath for example you would not be able to sue the council because the council were not at fault. Nevertheless most employers would look after their employees in these circumstances.


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## nelly (6 Jul 2006)

col said:
			
		

> Technically an employer is only responsible for an accident at work if he was at fault for the accident such as a slippy floor or a machine without a guard. He cannot be held responsible in most circumstances if another employee was clumsy.



An employer is legally required to provide safe co-workers. Its a common law duty of care and employers have been sucessfully sued under it.


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## bb12 (6 Jul 2006)

And I believe many people have sued councils in their time over faulty footpaths! 


If I was in this situation, I'd be making an appointment with a solicitor asap!


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## liosbourne (6 Jul 2006)

Hi,
I had a nasty accident at work about eight years ago. I was distracted by a co worker while using a machine. I was also very happy with my job and my employer, but eventually I sucessfully sused.
When you realise the long term effects of something like this, you have no choice. I had worked on machines for years before that, but eventually had to leave due to my fear of having another accident.
To be fair my employer did continue to pay me while I was out and there were no problems at work when I made a claim.


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