# Fastnet Rock Rescue: why should we pay for this.



## hastalavista (16 Aug 2011)

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0815/yacht.html
The yacht cost c $10 million and the owner is a zillionaire and yet we, the Irish tax payer are expected to pick up the tab when they get wet.

I think we should have let them sink.


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## callybags (16 Aug 2011)

Why not just get rid of our emergency services altogether?


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## Sunny (16 Aug 2011)

And let 21 people drown?


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## nai (16 Aug 2011)

you're having a laugh aren't you ?

Imagine the front page news around the world - "Irish not bothered to rescue 21 people because hastalavista thinks it's too expensive".

I've joined a debate on this issue on another web site and there is a single lone voice like yours with everyone else, myself included against your argument.

What about mountain rescue, ambulance crews, fire crews, safety marshals and medics at motorbike races, medical docs on standby at gaa matches ....... etc


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## ali (16 Aug 2011)

nai said:


> you're having a laugh aren't you ?
> 
> Imagine the front page news around the world - "Irish not bothered to rescue 21 people because hastalavista thinks it's too expensive".
> 
> ...


 

This is a big bug bear of my mother's. She gets enraged when she hears of people setting off up dangerous mountain ranges or round the world ocean trips for personal fulfillment and ending up having to be rescued and costing lives in the attempt. It's all ego on their part and the rescue teams often pay the price. Not sure I agree entirely but I kinda see the point.


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## Mel (16 Aug 2011)

I don't know for sure, but given the organisation that goes into this event, and the cost of participating, I would think that the organisers will cover the cost, either from entry fees or insurance for that purpose. Sailors are very safety-conscious and well aware of how much they owe to the emergency services.


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## csirl (16 Aug 2011)

I'm surprised that this event is reliant on the emergency services. Like other sports, surely they put in place their own arrangements to cater for emergencies. They should be hiring at least a couple of lifeboat crews and a rescue helicopter given the history of this event.


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## orka (16 Aug 2011)

What was the actual cost anyway? The lifeboat is manned by volunteers (and a huge amount of their fundraising would come from sailors all over the country who are happy to know that the lifeboat is there for whoever needs it). The marginal extra costs are fuel and wear and tear on the helicopters and the naval vessel: the crews are already working and on standby for this sort of thing anyway and probably glad of a chance to do something real rather than training exercises.


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## hastalavista (16 Aug 2011)

There is a hugh difference between backup at a GAA match and the case in point.
Yes let them drown, why not, they should have had enough life-craft and let the other race boats pick them up, but no because it adds to the weight etc.
Commercial boat rescues etc I have no issue with but I don't thing this lot should be rescued at a cost to the tax payer


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## Leo (16 Aug 2011)

csirl said:


> I'm surprised that this event is reliant on the emergency services. Like other sports, surely they put in place their own arrangements to cater for emergencies. They should be hiring at least a couple of lifeboat crews and a rescue helicopter given the history of this event.


 
That's just not practical given the distances/speeds involved.

I'd be surprised if the organisers were picking up the tab for the rescue though, as they do for medics, marshalls, fire crew. etc. at other high-risk events.


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## Sunny (16 Aug 2011)

hastalavista said:


> There is a hugh difference between backup at a GAA match and the case in point.
> Yes let them drown, why not, they should have had enough life-craft and let the other race boats pick them up, but no because it adds to the weight etc.
> Commercial boat rescues etc I have no issue with but I don't thing this lot should be rescued at a cost to the tax payer



Their boat broke up. The other boats passed them without seeing them because of fog. Are you honestly saying that you would have told the families of 21 people that died that it was their own fault? Are you saying that emergency services should not try to save people who try to kill themselves, should not help people who injure themselves playing sport, help people whose houses go fire because they fell asleep with candles lit, people in a car crash who speed etc etc. Are you honestly saying that you would let people die to teach them a lesson?


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## Sunny (16 Aug 2011)

By the way, we should be praising the people who carried out the rescue.


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## orka (16 Aug 2011)

hastalavista said:


> There is a hugh difference between backup at a GAA match and the case in point.
> Yes let them drown, why not, they should have had enough life-craft and let the other race boats pick them up, but no because it adds to the weight etc.
> Commercial boat rescues etc I have no issue with but I don't thing this lot should be rescued at a cost to the tax payer


Again, what do you think the cost of the rescue was? According to the Indo the Baltimore lifeboat (and its volunteer crew) was on an exercise in the area when they got the call. Because that's what they do - they practise rescues (using fuel etc - the 'costs') until they have a real rescue. For all those involved (and a big well done to them as Sunny say), I suspect this will be a highlight of their rescue careers considering what could have happened (and has happened before in the Fastnet race) - a big rescue like this makes it all worthwhile and the publicity will help their fundraising efforts.


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## mf1 (16 Aug 2011)

Its a hard one, isn't it? And I don't have the answer. 

I'm a sailor - I know the risks. By and large, you're on your own when you're out on a big trip. 

I love to hear peoples questions about the trips. 

So, what do you do at night on a transatlantic? Oh, we pull into services.........Daw!
Does your phone work? Yeah, right, where are the masts in mid Atlantic for phone signals? 

What happens if your keel falls off? Well, you're buggered frankly and the likelihood is that you drown - unless you're lucky enough that it falls off within shouting distance of the rescue services or a passing ship picks you up - and the chances of that are negligible once you're in dense fog, heavy seas and you barely made it off the craft without a chance to send a Mayday call. 

I think it comes down to - we're an island nation, we have fishermen and sailors who go out to sea. The RNLI is a totally voluntary organisation - funded by donations, largely by sailors. The air / sea rescue is on stand by for these situations. Do we categorise the people we will rescue - only fishermen at work?

Do the organisers cover this? No - its a choice that sailors make. We're always told - you do this at your own risk. 

Should the owners be billed? Well, you're  billed now for fire brigade call outs - so, yes, probably is the answer.

mf


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## nai (16 Aug 2011)

but do people not think that indirectly having a very good emergency service is a contributory factor in terms of why people come to partake in sporting events of any type - be it a boat race, a mountain hike/climb, motor bike race, etc. 

Imagine the negative effect on next years Volvo Ocean Race coming to Galway again and probably pumping a couple of hundred million in tourism into the Irish economy in the RNLI decided that it was too expensive so they will only rescue fishermen and not leisure sailors ..... !!

How would we be able to bid for those types of events in the future ?


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## micmclo (17 Aug 2011)

I would have thought the organizers would be paying and making contributions for emergency services and not just relying that the volunteers are available

Look at Galway Races, they have security and ambulances on site and that has to be paid for


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## Sunny (17 Aug 2011)

Who knows what contribution has been made. People are just assuming that they are paying anything. The story was on British and US media last night. I for one am delighted it is a story of 21 people being saved from drowning rather than Ireland lets 21 people drown because of budgetary constraints and to teach other adventurers a lesson.


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## csirl (17 Aug 2011)

Leo said:


> That's just not practical given the distances/speeds involved.
> 
> I'd be surprised if the organisers were picking up the tab for the rescue though, as they do for medics, marshalls, fire crew. etc. at other high-risk events.


 
I dont agree that its not practical. Given the profile of this event, surely they could afford to have 3-4 rescue craft spaced along the route? Surely they could afford to have a rescue helicopter on standby?


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## orka (17 Aug 2011)

csirl said:


> I dont agree that its not practical. Given the profile of this event, surely they could afford to have 3-4 rescue craft spaced along the route? Surely they could afford to have a rescue helicopter on standby?


I can guarantee you that even if the race provided what you suggest, all the official rescue services would also have gone out so there would have been no cost saving. The Baltimore lifeboat and the helicopter crews just wouldn't have got the international pats on the back that they are getting now nor the potential for increased funding... 

If anything, increasing private provision could reduce the justification for the level of rescue cover provided at the moment - which will impact on the 'poor' people who rely on the official rescue services - and I don't think that's what anybody wants.


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## csirl (17 Aug 2011)

orka said:


> I can guarantee you that even if the race provided what you suggest, all the official rescue services would also have gone out so there would have been no cost saving. The Baltimore lifeboat and the helicopter crews just wouldn't have got the international pats on the back that they are getting now nor the potential for increased funding...


 
If this is the case, then shouldnt there be a license fee paid by all professional yacht race organisers as a contribution towards the budget for providing these services? 

In practically every other sport in Ireland where emergency services are needed, they have to pay fees for cover (to either or voluntary service providers). There shouldnt be a double standard whereby some sports pay and others dont. And to be honest, those who take part in ocean yacht races are probably more able to pay than your average amateur sports organisation.


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## Sunny (17 Aug 2011)

Once again, has anyone bothered to see if money has been paid or will be paid? People just seem to be ranting on an assumption. 

Still struggle to see how a story about 21 lives being saved can be spun into something negative. Only in Ireland.


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## orka (17 Aug 2011)

micmclo said:


> Look at Galway Races, they have security and ambulances on site and that has to be paid for





csirl said:


> If this is the case, then shouldnt there be a license fee paid by all professional yacht race organisers as a contribution towards the budget for providing these services?
> 
> In practically every other sport in Ireland where emergency services are needed, they have to pay fees for cover (to either or voluntary service providers). There shouldnt be a double standard whereby some sports pay and others dont.


For the Galway Races and similar events (GAA etc.), the services are actually provided (whether or not they are used) - there are paramedics standing around and ambulances driven to the event to be on standby.  I don't think the Fastnet Race (or most yacht races) would call on external rescue every time - most years the race passes without major incident.
And what if someone doesn't pay their levy - should the RNLI refuse to rescue them?  That's not the way they operate.  I would much rather see them levy muppets who put to sea on a sunny day in Dublin Bay in a child's inflatable boat with no lifejacket...



Sunny said:


> Once again, has anyone bothered to see if money has been paid or will be paid? People just seem to be ranting on an assumption.
> 
> Still struggle to see how a story about 21 lives being saved can be spun into something negative. Only in Ireland.


I agree - it's bizarre.  Agree, we don't know yet whether the race organiser do have to make a contribution as part of getting their licence to run the race. - I did read that the guys who were rescued have said that they will help with fundraising for the Baltimore lifeboat.  And even at that, the thread was started as a rant because 'we' are picking up the tab for this - but the RNLI gets no government funding so I don't know what people are yakking about - some fuel for the helicopters which probably would have been doing training rescues as the staff are on duty anyway?


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## csirl (17 Aug 2011)

orka said:


> And what if someone doesn't pay their levy - should the RNLI refuse to rescue them? That's not the way they operate.


 
People would be rescued regardless.

I dont see this as an issue. Competitions such as this are sanctioned by the NGB - Sailing Ireland in this case. In most sports, people who dont pay get suspended and generally speaking, NGB suspensions are recognised worldwide. So if they refused to pay, they'd never race again. NGB can also refuse to sanction the event if the organisers have a history of non-payment.


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## Mel (17 Aug 2011)

Not the nicest article I've seen in the examiner, but in there it says the skipper gives $12.5K a week to charity - something tells me the services won't be out of pocket. 

http://www.examiner.ie/ireland/love-life-not-plain-sailing-for-flamboyant-skipper-164547.html


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## Leo (17 Aug 2011)

csirl said:


> I dont see this as an issue. Competitions such as this are sanctioned by the NGB - Sailing Ireland in this case. In most sports, people who dont pay get suspended and generally speaking, NGB suspensions are recognised worldwide. So if they refused to pay, they'd never race again. NGB can also refuse to sanction the event if the organisers have a history of non-payment.


 
I'm sure this particular NGB and it's members are very good supporters of the RNLI, so in effect are funding it. If the RNLI had any issues, no doubt they would be making use of the extensive press coverage they are currently getting to make that point. The fact that they're not suggests they are happy with the current arrangement.
Leo


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## gipimann (17 Aug 2011)

Nai mentioned marshalls and medics at motorcycle races earlier.  Just thought I'd point out that these people are volunteers.

The medics (either paramedics or doctors) are there on their own time, and their  medical equipment is funded by donations, sponsorship and from the race entry fees.


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## damson (17 Aug 2011)

I'd be more upset that the Baltimore lifeboat rescued Charlie Haughey when his yacht sank off Mizen Head in 1985.


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## Lex Foutish (18 Aug 2011)

orka said:


> What was the actual cost anyway? The lifeboat is manned by volunteers (and a huge amount of their fundraising would come from sailors all over the country who are happy to know that the lifeboat is there for whoever needs it). The marginal extra costs are fuel and wear and tear on the helicopters and the naval vessel: the crews are already working and on standby for this sort of thing anyway and probably glad of a chance to do something real rather than training exercises.


 


Sunny said:


> By the way, we should be praising the people who carried out the rescue.


 
The RNLI is actually a British based organisation. I presume they have British Government funding and I know that the RNLI have a lot of fundraisers here every year. A close relative of my wife owes his life to the RNLI and we're always more than happy to contribute to their cause.

I agree very strongly with Sunny. As a West Cork man, I'm very proud of the wonderful job they did and I was delighted to hear on RTE that the Baltimore Lifeboat website was inundated with congratulatory messages from all over the world.


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## Yachtie (18 Aug 2011)

hastalavista said:


> There is a hugh difference between backup at a GAA match and the case in point.
> Yes let them drown, why not, they should have had enough life-craft and let the other race boats pick them up, but no because it adds to the weight etc.
> Commercial boat rescues etc I have no issue with but I don't thing this lot should be rescued at a cost to the tax payer


 
Shame on you hastalavista and anyone agreeing with your ignorant views!

The Round Ireland and Fastnet Yacht Races are among the most challenging and best known yacht races in the world which give Ireland and the Irish a lot of good publicity. Brave and skilled *RNLI* *volounteers* and good people of Baltimore have done us proud this week!

The tax payer does not pick up a tab for this kind of rescue missions. Us sailors make geneours and frequent contributions to RNLI because we know it could be any one of us. Naval vessel just happened to be near by and it came to rescue because that's what's done. Anyone with a grain of seamanship in them would go to rescue if they knew they were needed.  

In this particular case, the yacht capsized in 15 seconds and the crew had no time to get the life raft (which they had thoroughly inspected together with all their other safety equipment prior to the race) or call Mayday. 



csirl said:


> I dont agree that its not practical. Given the profile of this event, surely they could afford to have 3-4 rescue craft spaced along the route? Surely they could afford to have a rescue helicopter on standby?


 
This is not practical because bigger and faster yachts can be hundreds of miles ahead of smaller ones. Rambler was one of the biggest in the race even though you would generally expect smaller yachts to get into trouble in heavy weather. So where would you put this helicopter? Also, yachts don't travel at great speeds (20-30kn would be the speed of bigger yachts, and maybe 7-12kn of smaller yachts), so those helicopters you are talking about would virtually hover over the fleet which in turn would 'dirty' the wind and cause all kinds of other stuff which is not in the spirit of the sport.


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## orka (19 Aug 2011)

Lex Foutish said:


> The RNLI is actually a British based organisation. I presume they have British Government funding


No. Their income is all from legacies, fundraising and merchandise sales.  That's why this thread has been ridiculous from the start.  'We' didn't pay for this so 'we' shouldn't complain on behalf of the RNLI who don't seem unhappy with the weeks events.


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## TarfHead (19 Aug 2011)

Sunny said:


> Still struggle to see how a story about 21 lives being saved can be spun into something negative. Only in Ireland.


 
I assume the bile arises from the yacht owner being wealthy.

Yet another example of people being unable or unwilling to differentiate between the cost of something, and it's value.


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## Purple (21 Aug 2011)

TarfHead said:


> *I assume the bile arises from the yacht owner being wealthy.*
> Yet another example of people being unable or unwilling to differentiate between the cost of something, and it's value.





hastalavista said:


> http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0815/yacht.html
> *The yacht cost c $10 million and the owner is a zillionaire and yet we, the Irish tax payer are expected to pick up the tab when they get wet.*
> I think we should have let them sink.



Yes, TaftHead, all I see from hastalavista is begrudgery and a nasty resentment of those with more than them.
hastalavista, how do you feel about the idea that rich people pay more taxes and so should get preferential treatment when accessing state services? No? I didn't think so.


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