# Deaths on the road



## dodo (4 Apr 2006)

Would it be a good idea to put restricters on the cars of young male drivers who seem to be the main risk for accidents, the government could work with the  Insurance companies to reduce their Insurance by say 25% if they had these restricters fitted , 
 also why do we allow cars into the Country that can go double the speed limit, why not take that choice away from the driver


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## michaelm (4 Apr 2006)

Might be simpler/better to restrict restrict L drivers and R drivers (when you pass the test you should have to display an R for a year) to a small engined car, maybe 1.2 litre and set a max. speed limit of 90KPH.


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## Fingalian (4 Apr 2006)

Why don't we enforce the laws we already have ?


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## DOBBER22 (4 Apr 2006)

Young drivers takin the rap again it seems


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## Humpback (4 Apr 2006)

Fingalian said:
			
		

> Why don't we enforce the laws we already have ?


 
Why don't people drive in a manner so as to not put themselves and other road users in danger of fatal accidents?


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## Seagull (4 Apr 2006)

dodo said:
			
		

> Would it be a good idea to put restricters on the cars of young male drivers who seem to be the main risk for accidents,


Where do you stop? With everyone having a regulator so that a drunken garda can't speed down the road and cause carnage?


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## Theo (4 Apr 2006)

ronan_d_john said:
			
		

> Why don't people drive in a manner so as to not put themselves and other road users in danger of fatal accidents?


 
Because that's like saying, "why don't criminals stop breaking the law?"
Unfortunately, you cannot depend on people to do this, it has to be enforced.


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## DrMoriarty (4 Apr 2006)

michaelm said:
			
		

> Might be simpler/better to restrict restrict L drivers and R drivers (when you pass the test you should have to display an R for a year) to a small engined car, maybe 1.2 litre and set a max. speed limit of 90KPH.


Something very like this has been the practice for donkeys' years, in other European countries, and doesn't specifically target young or male drivers, just inexperienced ones. Apart from/alongside that, a little enforcement of the current laws would go a long way, IMHO.


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## RainyDay (4 Apr 2006)

I agree with those who suggest we focus on enforcing the existing laws. My suggested priority would be the yummy-mummies of Dublin 4 who seem to feel that their children don't need to be restrained during the creche/school run.


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## Guest127 (4 Apr 2006)

could try restricting the size of motor for first year but the kids would only find some way to soup up the engine. maybe start of with an insurance discount and if they have a claim they lose the discount. would have to considerable ie first insurance would have to be very reasonable and in the event of a claim,( for which they were responsible) next insurance excessive,. also maybe some way to endorse first licence with details of accident so they are unable to hire motors abroad etc. 
Enforce the rules. Agree with Rainyday and its not just D4 rainy. was stopped at traffic lights last week ( two lanes) and car going right pulled up alongside. father driving, mother and TWO small children not wearing seat belts in front seat. one standing and other on mothers lap.sometimes you just despair.


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## Gordanus (5 Apr 2006)

DOBBER22 said:
			
		

> Young drivers takin the rap again it seems


And why not?  Look at the statistics.
Yesterday, in a line of cars waiting behind a car that wanted to turn right, a young man speeded past on the wrong side overtaking us all - obviously he decided we'd been there too long and couldn't figure out we were stopped for a reason.  I've seen a fatal accident happen like this.  Maybe learner drivers should all get time on a driving simulator so that they can learn this kind of thing?


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## gearoidmm (5 Apr 2006)

I sometimes break into a cold sweat thinking about the way I used to drive 10 years ago.  It took an accident and a conviction to slow me down.  That seems to be true of a lot of young (male ) drivers.


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## shnaek (5 Apr 2006)

The state of the roads doesn't help either. 2 rows of cars whizzing by each other at 100kmph in opposit directions with bad bends, blind right turns and potholes galore. Then you go to the UK and drive on their secondary roads. It is a beautiful experience.


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## icantbelieve (5 Apr 2006)

Has anyone looked at the points imposed for some of the new penalties, 1 point only for driving on the wrong side of the road and only 2 for driving on a motorway against the flow of traffic. Head on crashes are the ones that cause most deaths so I would have hoped that breaking laws that result in head on crashes would have been more heavily punished but obviously not. 2 points for driving without reasonable consideration, what is reasonable consideration.


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## Humpback (5 Apr 2006)

Theo said:
			
		

> Because that's like saying, "why don't criminals stop breaking the law?"
> Unfortunately, you cannot depend on people to do this, it has to be enforced.


 
I disagree. 
Because the benefit vs cost, to my thinking, is substantially greater for a criminal robber robbing a bank for example, versus a criminal driver speeding up to get through an already red light and then t-bones a car legitimately driving off on a green light.

Criminal robber might get away with a few grand scot free, while the criminal driver breaking the red light is trying to save himself at most 2 minutes on his way to whatever the most important thing in the world it is that he had to do at the end of his journey.

Bringing it to an even more base level, criminal will get a few years in jail or whatever for committing the crime, while the criminal driver will possibly kill themselves, and others.


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## dodo (7 Apr 2006)

With over 100 deaths already on the roads this year and less than 10% of them in dublin, is this cause for concern that to many garda are using dublin to get cash fo people speeding ie from red cow down to mac Donalds in 50K an hour have you ever tried doing that there not that easy and the garda are there quite alot just collecting the cash, where they could be more used in places that accidents do happen


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## Joe1234 (7 Apr 2006)

dodo said:
			
		

> speeding ie from red cow down to mac Donalds in 50K an hour



If you are speeding and get caught you have to pay the price.  If it is a 50kph zone, then you should only be doing max of 50 kph.


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## delgirl (7 Apr 2006)

Conor Faughnan from the AA was on RTE this afternoon and said that we in Ireland are 80% (per capita) more likely to be killed on the roads than a UK citizen.

Frightening statistic!


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## dodo (8 Apr 2006)

sorry that is 60 k an hour use to be 30 mls an hour as i said try it,   this should be 80K an hour  as it is a good road with 2 lanes, getting points there will not saves lives these garda must where accidents actually happen

uote=Joe1234]If you are speeding and get caught you have to pay the price.  If it is a 50kph zone, then you should only be doing max of 50 kph.[/quote]


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## Glenbhoy (8 Apr 2006)

> I agree with those who suggest we focus on enforcing the existing laws. My suggested priority would be the yummy-mummies of Dublin 4 who seem to feel that their children don't need to be restrained during the creche/school run.


Yeah, that shuold be our priority alright, those pesky unrestrained kids cause so many accidents!!

As for the fact that we're 80% more likely to die on the roads than the Brits:
1. They have a transport network which includes motorways - we don't.
2. They are required to have a licence (a revolutionary concept I know).
3. Mandatory 1 year loss of aforementioned licence on testing positive for drink driving.
Aside from the Brits however, we actually are'nt that bad as regards per capita road deaths - somewhere around the european average if memory serves me correctly.
There is far too much hype about this at the moment, as the veritable Eddie said the other night on Q&A, what about looking at how much additional car usage there is nowadays.  As someone rightly pointed out at the start, there are many ways in which this could be reduced (speed restrictors etc), but there is no political will for this to happen, we'll pose for the pictures and hope the furore (more media bull**** anyway) will go away.  They're probably right too, this time last year we were all obsessed with how we were a nation of alcoholics.....


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## dodo (9 Apr 2006)

again yummy mummies are not the ones involved in crashes think about this year alone as I said before over 100 deaths at less than 10% in Dublin tells it own story, the rules in place cant be enforced because the 2000 garda we where promised have gone missing, dont u think that if they could enforce that they would,   with over 400,000 drivers on our roads with no full licence I think we are lucky not to have more deaths,, if all cars for under even 23s where fitted with resticters I really believe it would cut death by 20% at least,  as Nike say just do it


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## ubiquitous (10 Apr 2006)

Imho the speed restricters idea doesn't make sense. Most fatalities occur on bad country roads & involve speeds of a lot less than 100kph. Speed-restricted cars would be likely to cause mayhem on certain national roads where slow drivers are already a safety hazard.


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## dodo (10 Apr 2006)

how could driving slower cause more mayhem think about it,


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## CCOVICH (10 Apr 2006)

dodo said:
			
		

> how could driving slower cause more mayhem think about it,


 
Take a drive on the M50.  See for yourself.


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## dodo (13 Apr 2006)

Have not seen to many crashes on a road that has so much traffic and if u where been funny then that is up to u but people are dying main causes homan error and speed they say,


			
				CCOVICH said:
			
		

> Take a drive on the M50.  See for yourself.


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## CCOVICH (14 Apr 2006)

i wasnt been funni 

in a previous life wer u oulu-luks like it


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## Purple (14 Apr 2006)

The UK has one police officer per 450 people (approx.) and one of the lowest road death rates in the world. 
We have one per 340 people (approx.) and one of the highest in Europe. 
It's not about police manpower.
Did anyone really think that we could have a huge increase in car sales and no increase in road deaths?
The people who kill themselves in single vehicle crashes at high speed at night are the problem. Unless they are dealt with things will not improve.
If the driver of the car survives one of these crashes and a passenger dies they driver should go to prison for murder (or an equivalent offence created by the Dail). I have no sympathy for those killed in such circumstances. The only thing I feel is relief if they didn't hit anyone else.


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## Vanilla (14 Apr 2006)

> i wasnt been funni
> 
> in a previous life wer u oulu-luks like it


 
Classic.


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## Leo (14 Apr 2006)

Purple said:
			
		

> The people who kill themselves in single vehicle crashes at high speed at night are the problem.


 
No idea how true this is, but a friend in the media said a number of these are suspected suicides, but it's still taboo in Ireland to acknowledge this.


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## JohnnyBoy (14 Apr 2006)

Hmmm!
IMHO,the main reason for the high carnage rate is our national character-ill -disciplined (& always trying to get the better of authority).
Why are cars designed to go at speeds in excess of the speed limit? why are they permitted.I have to say I get a great kick out of seeing SUVs stuck in gridlock!!
So after the w/e we're going to see the same death rate as per usual & it won't change.Look at drink driving,rates are increasing again & if they are caught,their cousin will have a buddy whose a buddy of the local sergeant etc.etc


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## RainyDay (15 Apr 2006)

Purple said:
			
		

> If the driver of the car survives one of these crashes and a passenger dies they driver should go to prison for murder (or an equivalent offence created by the Dail). I have no sympathy for those killed in such circumstances.


I've heard a few cases recently of the rear-seat passenger dying and I guess that the passenger didn't have a seat belt on. They certainly share some responsiblity in that scenario.


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## dodo (15 Apr 2006)

Also a big factor is people who came to live here from a Country where they drive on the right hand side of the road, this is a major issue, I think it is  around 20% if not more of last years deaths where people who where not born in this country,  also I think if anyone is caught Drink Driving they should be banned and made to resit their test  and there name read out at mass by the  good Father


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## vladamir (16 Apr 2006)

lot of talk about restricting vehicles to the speed limit.

one point, and this is something that the institute of advanced motorists will support i'm sure, sometimes speed is the best way of avoiding an accident.

particularly on motorbikes, which i've been on for years. if you're are driving down the road and someone just pulls straight out in front of you(frequent occurance), the natural reaction is to break, but advanced training will tell you that sometimes it is much much safer to pull out and accelerate around the problem. if you are restriced, it could mean driving straight into the idiot who just pulled out in front of me because they didn't have the basic courtesy to look first. i'd have a major issue with speed limiters for that basis alone.


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## Humpback (17 Apr 2006)

Leo said:
			
		

> No idea how true this is, but a friend in the media said a number of these are suspected suicides, but it's still taboo in Ireland to acknowledge this.


 
I suspect this was an attempt at an excuse, about 6months back was when I heard it first, for the media to ignore covering such accidents in any more detail than "a car went into a tree".

This, thankfully, didn't persist because of the sheer amount of carnage on the roads.


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## Purple (18 Apr 2006)

Purple said:
			
		

> The UK has one police officer per 450 people (approx.) and one of the lowest road death rates in the world.
> We have one per 340 people (approx.) and one of the highest in Europe.


If you count the UK's reserve it's more like one officer per 380 people but the point still holds.


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## dodo (18 Apr 2006)

My point sadly proven 4 polish died in car crash ,they where said to be driving on the wrong side of the road


			
				dodo said:
			
		

> Also a big factor is people who came to live here from a Country where they drive on the right hand side of the road, this is a major issue, I think it is  around 20% if not more of last years deaths where people who where not born in this country,  also I think if anyone is caught Drink Driving they should be banned and made to resit their test  and there name read out at mass by the  good Father


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## Humpback (18 Apr 2006)

dodo said:
			
		

> My point sadly proven 4 polish died in car crash ,they where said to be driving on the wrong side of the road


 
And the 9 other people who died on the roads at the weekend????


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## CCOVICH (18 Apr 2006)

Who said? The Gud Fater? r a wit ness?

The accident involving the Polish men was a collision with an articulated lorry. *Any* collision between two vehicles suggests that someone was on the wrong side of the road, but there are any number of possible explanations for this:


overtaking when unsafe to do so
swerving to avoid something (hole in the road, pedestrian, cyclist, animal etc)
drink, drugs etc.
To say that they are on the wrong side of the road just because they are foreigners is a bit of a leap.

So that accident doesn't 'prove' any point.


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## shnaek (18 Apr 2006)

Saw an intersting letter in the indo on Saturday where someone was suggesting penalty points for county engineers. I would second that motion. Nothing like coming around a corner at a legal 60 and hitting a pothole filled with gravel.


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## Humpback (18 Apr 2006)

shnaek said:
			
		

> Nothing like coming around a corner at a legal 60 and hitting a pothole filled with gravel.


 
As is the mistake of many other drivers in this country, legal doesn't necessarily mean safe.


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## lynchtp (18 Apr 2006)

ronan_d_john said:
			
		

> As is the mistake of many other drivers in this country, legal doesn't necessarily mean safe.



If the pothole had been filled corectly, or swept clean after "fixing" or sign posted then it could be considered driver error.
But to look immediatley at a driver who is traveling at the legal speed, in a modern car, which has been proven road worthy, on an inadequate road.


I put forth the idea of further testing once a person has their full license when it needs to be renewed it should not just be a form, how many qualified drivers would fail the test if asked to do it on the spot.

Randon test questions at garda check points.
"I see you have you tax in order sir, but what it the stopping distance for a car travelling at 50Km/h on a wet road."

O.K. bad question as the rules of the road dont include anything about Km/h


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## Humpback (18 Apr 2006)

lynchtp said:
			
		

> But to look immediatley at a driver who is traveling at the legal speed, in a modern car, which has been proven road worthy, on an inadequate road.


 
And if there was an injured pedestrian spreadeagled across the middle of the road around that very same corner, after tripping in the pothole and breaking their ankle?

Expecting the unexpected. That's another driving skill that's missing from many Irish drivers as well.


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## Humpback (18 Apr 2006)

I would like to reinforce the comments I've specifically made here, and others have inferred from other comments, regarding personal responsibility and its impact on the number and severity of accidents in this country.

Everyone who went out on the roads this weekend knew two things. 

Firstly, given past experiences, approximately a dozen people were likely to lose their lives on the roads over the 4 days of Easter. By extrapolation, they should have realised that there was a small chance that they could be one of those people to die. Secondly, also given past experiences, drivers on most roads this weekend knew that they would not be challenged or even observed by a member of the Garda Siochana, given our lack of road traffic law enforcement.

Therefore, drivers over the weekend would have known that most likely they were going to get away with traffic offences because of the lack of enforcement, and that there was a small chance that such dangerous driving would get them, their family, or other road users killed.

Yet 15 or so people were killed at the weekend. We have the full facts, yet we still drive in a way that kills so many people over a short period of time.


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## WarrenBuffet (18 Apr 2006)

Totally untrue. I drove down home to Waterford from Dublin on Friday afternoon. I went through one Garda checkpoint and saw two other sets of Gardai on my travels.

On the way up last night I saw two sets of Gardai.

Probably a bit of a coincidence that i passed so many but ridiculous to say drivers were not being observed by Gardai


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## CCOVICH (18 Apr 2006)

I drove from Dublin to Cavan on Sunday on the N3 and then back via Slane on the M1 and didn't pass one checkpoint.  It's a fair comment in my view, I always feel that I am as likely not to see a checkpoint/speed trap as I am whenever I get into the car.  Anyway, unless anyone has stats to back up their views on this, it will remain a matter of opinion.

Regardless, I would pretty much agree with what RDJ says about personal responsibility, but at the same time, there also has to be an expectation of getting caught otherwise behaviour will continue as it is currently.

There was an article by one of the columnists in CBG recently that advocates zero tolerance for drink driving, i.e. driving whilst having consumed any alcohol whatsoever should be illegal. I think this makes sense as removes any room for subjective judgement, i.e. it doesn't matter what your tolerance is for alochol, your body mass, when you last ate etc., if you drink, you can't drive.


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## shnaek (18 Apr 2006)

ronan_d_john said:
			
		

> As is the mistake of many other drivers in this country, legal doesn't necessarily mean safe.



And legal doesn't necessarily mean unsafe either. My point was that a lot of focus is on blaming drivers - fair enough - but lets also blame the poor state of our roads, and as a previous poster mentioned, the amount of new cars on those roads year on year. It helps to concentrate on facts when trying to solve a problem. Concentrating on one fact while discarding others is not of much use. Nor debating semantics and missing the gist of a point being made.

BTW I travelled myself on Saturday and Monday and the Gardai were all over the place, even on some of the narrow roads I travelled.


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## ubiquitous (18 Apr 2006)

CCOVICH said:
			
		

> I drove from Dublin to Cavan on Sunday on the N3 and then back via Slane on the M1 and didn't pass one checkpoint.  It's a fair comment in my view, I always feel that I am as likely not to see a checkpoint/speed trap as I am whenever I get into the car.



In some places, for example Lisgrey near Virginia on the N3, the Gardai regularly position themselves in an obscured position along the roadside in order to detect unsuspecting speeding motorists.



			
				CCOVICH said:
			
		

> There was an article by one of the columnists in CBG recently that advocates zero tolerance for drink driving, i.e. driving whilst having consumed any alcohol whatsoever should be illegal. I think this makes sense as removes any room for subjective judgement, i.e. it doesn't matter what your tolerance is for alochol, your body mass, when you last ate etc., if you drink, you can't drive.



This doesn't make practical sense as the natural biological processes of the human body occasionally generate alcohol - in some cases enough to show up small levels of alcohol content in blood or urine samples, even when taken from non-drinkers. These effects can sometimes be dramatically accentuated by the consumption of certain types of medication, along with mouthwashes and other products.


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## Humpback (18 Apr 2006)

ubiquitous said:
			
		

> This doesn't make practical sense as the natural biological processes of the human body occasionally generate alcohol - in some cases enough to show up small levels of alcohol content in blood or urine samples, even when taken from non-drinkers.


 
It makes perfect practical sense to me. If you consume alcohol, and then drive, then you should be arrested and face the full rigors of the law.

If you don't consume alcohol, then fine. Presumably the difference between levels of naturally produced alcohol (and it's composition) can be differentiated from alcohol consumed in an alcoholic beverage.


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## CCOVICH (18 Apr 2006)

Fair comments by _ubiquitous_, who is probably better informed on the subject than most by the sounds of it, but I would have thought that this phenomenon would be captured by a standard margin of error?  

Or could the limit be lowered such that it would be lower than consuming a glass of wine, pint of lager etc, but would allow for mouthwash, medication and naturally occuring substances?


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## CCOVICH (18 Apr 2006)

ubiquitous said:
			
		

> In some places, for example Lisgrey near Virginia on the N3, the Gardai regularly position themselves in an obscured position along the roadside in order to detect unsuspecting speeding motorists.


 
Maybe, but I didn't see anyone stopped or see any other evidence of activity.  That doesn't necessarily mean that there isn't any activity, but surely there should be more of a visible presence than (it *appears* to me) currently exists?


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## ubiquitous (18 Apr 2006)

CCOVICH said:
			
		

> Fair comments by _ubiquitous_, who is probably better informed on the subject than most by the sounds of it, but I would have thought that this phenomenon would be captured by a standard margin of error?
> 
> Or could the limit be lowered such that it would be lower than consuming a glass of wine, pint of lager etc, but would allow for mouthwash, medication and naturally occuring substances?



I actually don't really know that much technical detail about the subject but the head of either the National Safety Council or one of the big insurance companies explained this phenomenon in some detail on George Hook's radio show a number of weeks back. 

My own understanding is that one of the drawbacks of reducing blood/breath alcohol limits for drivers below the current levels is the increased risks that someone who is 100% clean and sober could innocently exceed the limit. I don't know if this is an issue in countries where there is a 50mg limit as opposed to the current 80g limit that applies here. Some countries in Eastern Europe have or recently had zero or 20mg limits, however their levels of road safety enforcement and accident/death rates are so appalling that I doubt if there would be much wisdom in following their example.

In any event, I remain unconvinced that there is any meaningful link between driving having consumed a glass of wine, a single "half one" or a pint of beer and the risk of a serious road accident or fatality. Its a different matter entirely when the driver has consumed significant multiples of these volumes.


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## ubiquitous (18 Apr 2006)

CCOVICH said:
			
		

> Maybe, but I didn't see anyone stopped or see any other evidence of activity.  That doesn't necessarily mean that there isn't any activity, but surely there should be more of a visible presence than (it *appears* to me) currently exists?



I think the philosophy of the Gardai on the N3 at Lisgrey (a long stretch of wide, straight road) is that if motorists can see them, then they will evade detection by slowing down once they see the squad car.

For the record, the Gardai have done the same in the past at Carnaross and booked people for speeding within the 30mph/50kph zone, who were not even aware of any Garda presence in the vicinity at the time.


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## dodo (18 Apr 2006)

I think they where Irish which is also very sad, but the point the poles accounted for 1/3 of the deaths over the last few days but only make up a small % of popualation I dont just mean poles but people who come from countrys where they drive on right hand side,I think the government need to put signs up reminding people of this, I have driven abroad many times and it is easy if you are not on the ball to forget to be in the correct side of country you are driving in ,lucky I do be on the ball, but if you read the list of people who have died this year there are alot who where not born here, They live and work here like us and the government should be aware and make driving on our roads safer for everyone and if putting up signs to remind people of the fact that we drive on the left side so be it as long as people are safer on the roads less deaths thats all I care about,


			
				ronan_d_john said:
			
		

> And the 9 other people who died on the roads at the weekend????


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## LIVERLIPS (18 Apr 2006)

I seen checkpoints all weekend on N2 on joining the new road and the nile mile stone roundabout and they where out in Duleek aswell. Accidents mainly caused by speed and drink driving. The crash a few weeks ago in Howth where the driver crashed into a cycylist and both died. He was a 23 year old drink driving his car obviously went over the other side of the road. But people will never say he was drink driving they said he had a blackout. He was at a wedding i was at in sutton and he only lived in howth yet he drove home. I feel sorry for the family of the poor man he killed. And stats show that a high percentage of  polish,lativans etc are drink driving as look at times of most of these accidents. I would hate to be out and on the dry one night and to come across one these drivers i would not have a chance.  They are driving on our roads with cars that are not roadworthy(no brake lights, broken lights) no tax or insurance if one of them hit you, you will be paying for repairs yourselve. So NCT does not apply to them. They overtake dangerously and do not indicate. Surely if our goverment can pay for the kids in poland etc they can pay to tax, insure and nct there cars.


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## CCOVICH (18 Apr 2006)

ubiquitous said:
			
		

> In any event, I remain unconvinced that there is any meaningful link between driving having consumed a glass of wine, a single "half one" or a pint of beer and the risk of a serious road accident or fatality. Its a different matter entirely when the driver has consumed significant multiples of these volumes.



My point isn't that a glass of wine impairs your judgement (although it may very well do so), but the limit as it stands means different volumes for different people at different times, and so that subjectivity should be removed.


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## CCOVICH (18 Apr 2006)

dodo said:
			
		

> I think they where Irish which is also very sad, but the point the poles accounted for 1/3 of the deaths over the last few days but only make up a small % of popualation I dont just mean poles but people who come from countrys where they drive on right hand side,I think the government need to put signs up reminding people of this, I have driven abroad many times and it is easy if you are not on the ball to forget to be in the correct side of country you are driving in ,lucky I do be on the ball, but if you read the list of people who have died this year there are alot who where not born here, They live and work here like us and the government should be aware and make driving on our roads safer for everyone and if putting up signs to remind people of the fact that we drive on the left side so be it as long as people are safer on the roads less deaths thats all I care about,



So it's that easy?  We put up signs reminding people to drive on the right side of the road, i.e. the left, and that would solve the problem?

Sure.  Just like the signs reminding people of the speed limit are successful at keeping people from driving at crazy speeds.  Just like red lights stop people from driving through them.  Just like the TV ads and billboards telling people not to drink and drive mean that they don't. etc.

It's naive in the extreme to believe that signs would solve the 'problem' to which you are referring.  If so many foreigners are dying on the roads here because they 'forget' what side of the road they are meant to be on, it is more than likely to be because they are drunk, not that they are just off the boat and don't have a clue what they are doing. I'm sure they are just as 'on the ball' as you are likely to be when it comes to driving on the correct side of the road.

Poles accounted for 1/3 of deaths this weekend.  But how many over the past year?  2 years? 3 years?


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## Humpback (19 Apr 2006)

shnaek said:
			
		

> My point was that a lot of focus is on blaming drivers



The road safety advert that I saw on RTE1 last night had the quote, "90% of all road accidents are caused by driver error". Maybe that's the reason for focusing on blaming drivers?


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## Humpback (19 Apr 2006)

LIVERLIPS said:
			
		

> The crash a few weeks ago in Howth where the driver crashed into a cycylist and both died. He was a 23 year old drink driving his car obviously went over the other side of the road. But people will never say he was drink driving they said he had a blackout.



Please show us the evidence of this statement.



			
				LIVERLIPS said:
			
		

> And stats show that a high percentage of polish,lativans etc are drink driving as look at times of most of these accidents. I would hate to be out and on the dry one night and to come across one these drivers i would not have a chance.


 
Please quote, or direct us to, these stats. I would be interested to see the percentage of drivers who are drink driving that are immigrants versus the number of Irish drivers that do exactly the same thing.




			
				LIVERLIPS said:
			
		

> They are driving on our roads with cars that are not roadworthy(no brake lights, broken lights) no tax or insurance if one of them hit you, you will be paying for repairs yourselve. So NCT does not apply to them.


 
Again, please direct us to where it says that immigrants are not obliged to undergo the NCT test as well as the rest of us. I've looked at www.nct.ie, and can only see [broken link removed]on eligibility for NCT. Nothing related to nationality.

All in all, I think the tone of the comments presented by LIVERLIPS here are going in a very dangerous direction, as well as being very poorly informed. The implication of the comments as I see it is that our road deaths should be attributed to foreigners - as if we were never killing ourselves on the roads before the Celtic Tiger and immigration.


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## Leo (19 Apr 2006)

CCOVICH said:
			
		

> My point isn't that a glass of wine impairs your judgement (although it may very well do so), but the limit as it stands means different volumes for different people at different times, and so that subjectivity should be removed.


 
It woud be good to eliminate the gray area, but it's the quantity of alcohol in the bloodstream that affects reaction times, etc., so I think it makes sense to use this as the measure. Another aspect of this is that this measure is easily prooven in court. If you get into the "I ony had the one" arguments, many drink drivers may get away with it. The courts need something that's black and white. 

Also, quotes like the one earlier where "90% of all road accidents are caused by driver error" are incorect. This may have been incorrectly interpreted by the reporter, but driver error is a factor in 90% of accidents, not the cause. Same thing when people say speed is the cause of x% of accidents, again untrue. There are always a number of contributory factors in any accident.

And, while I'm at it, can anything be done about over tired drivers on our roads? Top Gear report a couple of years back demonstrated this was more dangerous than driving a number of times over the alcohol limit.


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## dodo (19 Apr 2006)

If these signs saved one life then it would be worth putting them up dont knock something that might save a life , we in Ireand also still have a drink(drunk) drive  problem, I have been to Sweden and Finland alot and if someone over there knew there own brother was about to drink and drive if they could not stop them they would have no issue ringing the police, here most people would just let them get into the car not worth the hassel attitude, education is the key, it starts when you learn to drive, over there the only person who can teach you to drive is a  proper driving instructor with 2 sets of pedals, our government should go and see how the Sweds do it think about they have  worst weather conditions than us popuation around 8million  and have less deaths on the roads in a year than we do, we all want safer roads so lets try work together rather than put peoples ideas down nothing else seem to be working , try be positive in life free advice  




			
				CCOVICH said:
			
		

> So it's that easy?  We put up signs reminding people to drive on the right side of the road, i.e. the left, and that would solve the problem?
> 
> Sure.  Just like the signs reminding people of the speed limit are successful at keeping people from driving at crazy speeds.  Just like red lights stop people from driving through them.  Just like the TV ads and billboards telling people not to drink and drive mean that they don't. etc.
> 
> ...


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## ubiquitous (19 Apr 2006)

LIVERLIPS said:
			
		

> But people will never say he was drink driving they said he had a blackout.



I can't comment on the particular case you mention but a young guy in my own locality was killed last year driving a motorbike while very drunk. His funeral was one of the largest ever seen in the area. I never heard one person attempt to deny or obscure the fact that he was driving while drunk.


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## CCOVICH (19 Apr 2006)

dodo said:
			
		

> free advice


 
You get what you pay for I guess  .


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## Humpback (19 Apr 2006)

Leo said:
			
		

> Also, quotes like the one earlier where "90% of all road accidents are caused by driver error" are incorect. This may have been incorrectly interpreted by the reporter, but driver error is a factor in 90% of accidents, not the cause. Same thing when people say speed is the cause of x% of accidents, again untrue. There are always a number of contributory factors in any accident.


 
Please refer your views on the incorrectness of this statement to the National Safety Council, the origination of the statement. I'd be fairly inclined to take their stats fairly seriously. (Note: their advert last night - not a comment by a reporter - stated 90% rather than the 80% on their site - but their site doesn't look like it's been updated in a while).





			
				Leo said:
			
		

> And, while I'm at it, can anything be done about over tired drivers on our roads? Top Gear report a couple of years back demonstrated this was more dangerous than driving a number of times over the alcohol limit.


 
Being a British programme, on the BBC, I'm guessing that Top Gear were talking about driving on British motorways and roads? Relevance to Ireland? Do we have stats on the impact of tiredness/drivers falling asleep on the accident stats for Ireland?

The NSC, on the same page above, also quote UK stats, nothing about Ireland.


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## CCOVICH (19 Apr 2006)

I'd imagine it's easier to prevent drunk rather than tired driving, i.e. how do you demonstrate how tired someone is as opposed to how drunk?  Agreed, it is a risky activity, and when you hear of accidents between 2am and 6am, it's not hard to imagine that the driver was either drunk, or tired at best.


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## Cati76 (19 Apr 2006)

Just back from Spain, and drove there for the first time (I got my full driving licence in Ireland). Nor once I got confused about what side of the road I should be driving, broke the speed limit or did something I could regret. 108 people died in the road in Spain during the Easter holidays (from 3 pm  Friday 7th to 0 am Monday 17th), 48% of the people that died were not wearing seat belts, 35 of the drivers that died where not wearing seat belts. Roads are a bit better in Spain than in Ireland, but it's common sense, paying attention to the road, that will save your live, not restrictions on the car. 
I didn't meet any speed check on the way from Dublin to Cork on Monday, neither on the way up the week before that. I haven't actually meet any garda in the road since I am driving ( a year now),  except for those checking my road taxes. Law should be enforce not to make money, but to "educate" people. Breaking the law has fatal consequences. Someone can die if you don't drive safely. Could you live with that for the rest of your life? I know I couldn't.


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## TarfHead (19 Apr 2006)

LIVERLIPS said:
			
		

> .. He was at a wedding i was at in sutton and he only lived in howth yet he drove home.


 
You assume rational judgment after attending an Irish wedding - unlikely in my experience. Track it back 12 hours and the appropriate rational decision would, with the benefit of hindsight, have been to get a taxi to the hotel.

As it stands, and assuming everything posted is accurate, the individual was faced with getting a taxi home and back again the following day to collect the car, versus a short drive home on familar roads.

I am not offering a defence or accusation here. It is familar to me as I have, in the past, been in those situations and have made bad choices.


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## dodo (19 Apr 2006)

That record is worst than here for same period, population of Spain 40M Ireland around 4M. 13 I think died  same period here ,so ration we are safer than at least the Spainish who are known to be terriable drivers even worst than us here in Ireland
108 people died in the road in Spain during the Easter holidays (from 3 pm  Friday 7th to 0 am Monday 17th), 4 the rest of your life? I know I couldn't.[/quote]


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## LIVERLIPS (19 Apr 2006)

Here Ronan da john, He was at a wedding i was at in sutton and he only lived in howth yet he drove home plus he was with my friends brother and they where all knocking back the drinks, my friends brother even took the keys of him put he found them and then went.  I am not quessing he was drink driving my friends brother was with him.


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## LIVERLIPS (19 Apr 2006)

Right guys i know the NCT.ie does not say Poles etc are not restricted but have you seen a car with a valid nct, Tax and Insurance on them. I say the answer is no. I certainly have not constantly seeing them in Ashbourne where i live. If they are using our roads and living and working here they should be paying the same taxes as us. My cousins boyfriend goes to france alot and the boat does be full of these cars on the way back tO rosslare. All they have to do is for port police to take note of these cars and put them in compound and if they want them back to come with tax for it. At least revenue would be up. So Ronan d John you think i am not allowed state facts i do read the paper everyday and the statisitics i was talking about was quoted from traffic police after the crash in donegal awhile ago.


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## Humpback (19 Apr 2006)

LIVERLIPS said:
			
		

> Here Ronan da john, He was at a wedding i was at in sutton and he only lived in howth yet he drove home plus he was with my friends brother and they where all knocking back the drinks, my friends brother even took the keys of him put he found them and then went. I am not quessing he was drink driving my friends brother was with him.


 
And did none of these people even think to tell him not to bother driving home because he was drunk? Did you not think to stop him from driving home? You're not doing your arguments any favours here bit highlighting your own irresponsible behaviour.



			
				LIVERLIPS said:
			
		

> Right guys i know the NCT.ie does not say Poles etc are not restricted


 
Then don't make such a bold unsubstantiated statement which you can't back up with evidence. Again, it doesn't help your arguments and negates the impact of anything that you say that might actually be valid and have a legitimate point.



			
				LIVERLIPS said:
			
		

> I certainly have not constantly seeing them in Ashbourne where i live.





			
				LIVERLIPS said:
			
		

> My cousins boyfriend goes to france alot and the boat does be full of these cars on the way back tO rosslare.





			
				LIVERLIPS said:
			
		

> All they have to do is for port police to take note of these cars and put them in compound and if they want them back to come with tax for it. At least revenue would be up.





			
				LIVERLIPS said:
			
		

> i do read the paper everyday


 
Are you Polish as well?



			
				LIVERLIPS said:
			
		

> So Ronan d John you think i am not allowed state facts i do read the paper everyday and the statisitics i was talking about was quoted from traffic police after the crash in donegal awhile ago..


 
All I asked was that you direct us to the statistics that you speak of. Which newspaper were they in? What date? Can you provide a link to the article online. You've already made unsubstantiated statements which you've had to withdraw because you made them up out of thin air. Why should we believe that this statement from you is true in this case?


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## ubiquitous (19 Apr 2006)

Lads, please keep the discussion calm & civil


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## dodo (19 Apr 2006)

51 people arrested for  murder driving sorry drink driving on Good Friday 17 where non Irish  , bad trend going on


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## Leo (19 Apr 2006)

ronan_d_john said:
			
		

> Please refer your views on the incorrectness of this statement to the National Safety Council...


 
Wasn't directed at you rdj, took a look at the NCS site, they contradict thier own figures, so difficult to take them too seriously.




			
				ronan_d_john said:
			
		

> Being a British programme, on the BBC, I'm guessing that Top Gear were talking about driving on British motorways and roads? Relevance to Ireland? Do we have stats on the impact of tiredness/drivers falling asleep on the accident stats for Ireland?


 
Obviously yes, they were referring to UK roads. don't understand why it wouldn't be relevant here?

Just did a quick Google and found this on a Volvo device to monitor road position and  which monitors how much a driver is blinking (Volvo and others have similar devices).


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## CCOVICH (20 Apr 2006)

Due to recent ridiculous 'thinking out loud' from _dodo_ (which I have deleted) I have had to lock this thread.


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