# Are Businesses Playing at Smoke and Mirrors re Covid precautions.



## IsleOfMan (4 Aug 2020)

I visited an Irish supermarket in Blackrock today.  All the working floor staff were wearing Facemasks it was good to see. However all was not as it seemed.

There were a few maintenance staff working on the freezer section where there seemed to be a problem with one of the freezers. None of these were wearing masks.
There were deliveries being made by outside companies. Trolleys brought in and shelves being filled. These were not wearing masks.

A staff member who was working in the delicatessen area was wearing a mask but the mask was not covering his nose. He was coming back and forth from the back room bringing foodstuffs out. I got the impression that he was working behind the scenes rather than serving the public. As he passed me by I suggested to him that his mask should be covering his nose (all other staff were wearing their masks properly). He passed a gruff dismissive remark toward me.

There was a young lady working on the door directing people to hand sanitisers, cleaned trollies etc.  I noticed as we were leaving that she pulled down her mask. Wiped her nose with her fingers and then pulled up her mask again. She did not use the hand sanitiser after doing this.

Thankfully 95% of customers were wearing masks except for two who were non nationals.  

I think that every supermarket should have a large sign on their front door asking customers to wear masks. In fact I believe that they should have it as a policy.


----------



## Grizzly (4 Aug 2020)

I was passing by the Leinster Rugby Team HQ today. There were about two dozen players all sitting outside after their training session. All sitting side by side with no social distancing. I am sure that these are checked on a regular basis. They also are in close contact on the pitch, scrums etc. I am not sure what the guidelines are for players?
It just struck me as odd that you are recommended to wear a mask in a supermarket and bus but not outside sitting in a group. You also have to social distance when watching a match outdoors as a spectator.


----------



## EmmDee (4 Aug 2020)

Grizzly said:


> I was passing by the Leinster Rugby Team HQ today. There were about two dozen players all sitting outside after their training session. All sitting side by side with no social distancing. I am sure that these are checked on a regular basis. They also are in close contact on the pitch, scrums etc. I am not sure what the guidelines are for players?
> It just struck me as odd that you are recommended to wear a mask in a supermarket and bus but not outside sitting in a group. You also have to social distance when watching a match outdoors as a spectator.



They have been designated as a "bubble" and are tested (I think) twice a week - there was specific protocols agreed for the return of the various team sports


----------



## mathepac (4 Aug 2020)

IsleOfMan said:


> I visited an Irish supermarket in Blackrock today.


Why not name the supermarket? They all have CCTV now and all the behaviours you describe can be verified.


----------



## Purple (4 Aug 2020)

IsleOfMan said:


> Thankfully 95% of customers were wearing masks except for two who were non nationals.


How did you know they were non nationals (non Irish Nationals, I presume since they are nationals of somewhere).


----------



## losttheplot (4 Aug 2020)

IsleOfMan said:


> Thankfully 95% of customers were wearing masks except for two who were non nationals.


Why is nationality relevant. Were passports on display too?


----------



## IsleOfMan (4 Aug 2020)

I put a bet on that Purple would pass a comment like this after my post.  Bingo.

I think when you are posting from Ireland and you say non nationals, you are referring to non Irish Nationals.



losttheplot said:


> Why is nationality relevant



When they are not wearing masks it is relevant. If Irish people are wearing masks and following recommendations then visitors/tourists to our country should also follow the recommendations.


----------



## Thirsty (4 Aug 2020)

Curious as to how you knew they were tourists?


----------



## joe sod (4 Aug 2020)

IsleOfMan said:


> There were a few maintenance staff working on the freezer section where there seemed to be a problem with one of the freezers. None of these were wearing masks.
> There were deliveries being made by outside companies. Trolleys brought in and shelves being filled. These were not wearing masks.



Have some consideration for these guys, they kept the whole show on the road when everybody else was at home or cocooning. They are working together anyways and doing physically demanding jobs, its one thing to wear a mask sitting at a desk , its quite another to wear one when you are exerting yourself and trying to manipulate some awkward piece of a freezer.


----------



## mathepac (4 Aug 2020)

You obviously didn't hear the doc on the wireless or on the intertube. Wearing a mask in no way compromises your airway nor does it reduce the volume of air being inhaled through your nose or exhaled through your mouth.  Mask up, no excuses, no exceptions and no more stupid nonsense makey-up stories like the "manager" in Dunnes stores who told me he was exempted from wearing a mask due to his asthma and difficulty breathing. As I informed him, if a paper/cotton mask compromised his breathing to the extent that he felt uncomfortable or panicky while standing at rest inside a door observing, then the safest place for him was at home, away from the public.


----------



## Laramie (5 Aug 2020)

joe sod said:


> Have some consideration for these guys, they kept the whole show on the road when everybody else was at home or cocooning. They are working together anyways and doing physically demanding jobs, its one thing to wear a mask sitting at a desk , its quite another to wear one when you are exerting yourself and trying to manipulate some awkward piece of a freezer.



I couldn't disagree with you more. These guys huffing and puffing, (builders on a building site, who can wear masks no problem). People trying to get around them to access the freezers that are working.
I had a large fridge freezer delivered to my home recently and the guy was able to wear a mask when struggling to bring the item in to my home.

If the supermarket floor staff wear masks then outside people working in the store should also wear them.

Smoke and mirrors with the spraying of trolley handles, hand sanitiser at doors, staff wearing masks then the manager allows maintenance men in to store without them wearing a mask.


----------



## Laramie (5 Aug 2020)

losttheplot said:


> Why is nationality relevant



I think it is relevant. Asians are very good at wearing masks. Irish not so good but improving. Some other Middle East countries not so good. I have seen evidence of this myself. Thankfully with the new law next week we will all have to comply.


----------



## SoylentGreen (5 Aug 2020)

EmmDee said:


> They have been designated as a "bubble" and are tested (I think) twice a week - there was specific protocols agreed for the return of the various team sports


But if all the players return home to their wives, girlfriends, family and friends who are not being tested...….

You would  wonder why a small pub in Hackballs Cross cannot have a bubble of regulars?


----------



## Purple (5 Aug 2020)

IsleOfMan said:


> I put a bet on that Purple would pass a comment like this after my post.  Bingo.
> 
> I think when you are posting from Ireland and you say non nationals, you are referring to non Irish Nationals.
> 
> ...


How did you know they weren't Irish Nationals? Did you see their passports?


----------



## EmmDee (5 Aug 2020)

SoylentGreen said:


> But if all the players return home to their wives, girlfriends, family and friends who are not being tested...….
> 
> You would  wonder why a small pub in Hackballs Cross cannot have a bubble of regulars?



Irish Ruby Football Union
10/12 Lansdowne Road
Dublin 4

... if you want to send a letter to ask


----------



## Brendan Burgess (5 Aug 2020)

IsleOfMan said:


> I put a bet on that Purple would pass a comment like this after my post. Bingo.



Isle of Man.

Your post was clearly racist. 

It was absolutely appropriate for Purple or anyone else to challenge it. 

Brendan


----------



## WaterWater (6 Aug 2020)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Your post was clearly racist.


I didn't think the post was racist. The OP was simply stating something that he observed.

We have as a nation been happy to quarantine other nations/non Irish Nationals when they visit us on holiday. In the media we hear about Covid clusters in the Roma Community, Brazilian meat packers, Travelling Community, Direct Provision.

These people have been given titles to identify them rather than just call them people.

It is natural to identify people by their looks and accents and speech. We do it all the time.

There is nothing wrong in someone being called a non Irish national. Our Government keeps statistics on this.





__





						All non-Irish nationals in Ireland - CSO - Central Statistics Office
					






					www.cso.ie
				




The only mistake I believe the OP made was using the term non national instead of non Irish national.

Although in Ireland, a _non_-_national_ is a person who is not from Ireland, though they may have Irish citizenship.


----------



## Tintagel (6 Aug 2020)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Isle of Man.
> 
> Your post was clearly racist.
> 
> ...



Yet these posts from Purple were not called ageist by you?



Purple said:


> I haven't had a pint in Kehoes for months. If the cost of me getting back on that barstool is a few thousand dead old people then so be it!



Maybe Isle of Man should have put a funny emoji alongside his comment.


----------



## Purple (6 Aug 2020)

Tintagel said:


> Yet these posts from Purple were not called ageist by you?
> 
> Maybe Isle of Man should have put a funny emoji alongside his comment.


I think Brendan, like most people, understands the difference between humour and racism.

Anyway, nobody cares about old people...


----------



## Purple (6 Aug 2020)

WaterWater said:


> I didn't think the post was racist. The OP was simply stating something that he observed.
> 
> We have as a nation been happy to quarantine other nations/non Irish Nationals when they visit us on holiday. In the media we hear about Covid clusters in the Roma Community, Brazilian meat packers, Travelling Community, Direct Provision.
> 
> ...


In the context of clusters in marginalised communities or migrant groups which live in high density housing race or ethnicity is relevant.
In the context of who is wearing or not wearing a mask in a shop race or ethnicity is not relevant. There is an implied racism when such distinctions are made. In this context is was, "All the Irish were wearing masks, the problem is the immigrants". I thought that people understood the concept of implicit racism by now.


----------



## Leo (6 Aug 2020)

WaterWater said:


> Although in Ireland, a _non_-_national_ is a person who is not from Ireland, though they may have Irish citizenship.



Even if we believe the term was used in that context, unless they knew or asked these people where their place of birth was, it was an assumption based solely on their appearance or the colour of their skin.


----------



## Purple (6 Aug 2020)

WaterWater said:


> Although in Ireland, a _non_-_national_ is a person who is not from Ireland, though they may have Irish citizenship.


One in every 5.8 people in this country was born in a different country.


----------



## Odea (6 Aug 2020)

Purple said:


> In this context is was, "All the Irish were wearing masks, the problem is the immigrants".



No, that was not implied.  I read something different. Foreign tourists perhaps?

If there is a problem with some non Irish people not wearing masks for whatever reason then why not say it?



Purple said:


> I think Brendan, like most people, understands the difference between humour and racism.



Just as I think that most people reading the OP's comments would understand what he was talking about.


----------



## Kimmagegirl (6 Aug 2020)

Purple said:


> In this context is was, "All the Irish were wearing masks, the problem is the immigrants".


Not at all.  Isle of Man never used the word immigrant or even implied it.

This is the definition of an immigrant.

"a person who comes to live permanently in a foreign country.".

Isle Of Man would not have known that the two people in the shop were people who had come to live in the country permanently. He would have known, possibly by their language that they were not fellow country men but rather a person coming from some other country. 

The racist remark should be withdrawn.


----------



## Leo (6 Aug 2020)

Odea said:


> If there is a problem with some non Irish people not wearing masks for whatever reason then why not say it?



How do you accurately determine the nationality of everyone you see in a supermarket without making assumptions based on how they look?


----------



## PaddyBloggit (6 Aug 2020)

Leo said:


> How do you accurately determine the nationality of everyone you see in a supermarket without making assumptions based on how they look?



Perhaps the OP could based on his/her on the ground experience at that time. I didn't read anything racist into the OP's posting either.

Surely the OP could have arrived at an informed opinion based on lots of indicators?

I think we are beginning to jump on the racist card too readily these days. I think the OP was genuine in their concern re. the virus and that he/she was reporting what he/she had seen without being termed a racist.


----------



## Leo (6 Aug 2020)

PaddyBloggit said:


> Surely the OP could have arrived at an informed opinion based on lots of indicators?



I'm just curious as to what those indicators are? I work with lots of Irish citizens who neither look nor sound anything like any Irish stereotype.


----------



## Tintagel (7 Aug 2020)

Leo said:


> How do you accurately determine the nationality of everyone you see in a supermarket without making assumptions based on how they look?



Here is a post from Sunny on another thread.



Sunny said:


> Direct Provision facilities and Food Processing all saw outbreaks in other countries and they are linked so it shouldn't have come as a shock. Now we have them expressing concern at the outbreak and teams are being put in place. Same with the Roma and Traveller communities. These were high risk from day one. We recently had a visit from a convoy of Travellers with English reg vehicles into our small town. The matter was raised with local politicians and they all ran a mile from the issue. Easier to condemn a flight from the US I suppose......



How do you spot a Roma or that a person is a Traveller from their car reg? How do you spot a foreigner in a supermarket?

Isle of Man started this thread. It looked promising but instead was almost immediately shut down by certain people immediately jumping on the racist bandwagon. It wasn't a racist post, it was an observation.  Lots of threads on AAM die at death because people (usually the same individuals) won't let the thread breathe.

At times it seems that there is a hierarchy of posters on AAM.


----------



## Sunny (7 Aug 2020)

Tintagel said:


> Here is a post from Sunny on another thread.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Eh?????? I mentioned the reg to show they were English vehicles and so more than likely had come from England. Not that I identified them as travellers through their reg. I think it is possible to spot an illegal traveller site without being accused of racist profiling

As for the Roma, where did I mention anything about 'identifying' or 'spotting' Roma?? I mentioned them because they are a high risk section of society as identified by NPHET because of the living conditions and arrangements.

Maybe next time you decide to use a quote of mine to suggest some underlying racism, don't.


----------



## SlurrySlump (7 Aug 2020)

Purple said:


> I haven't had a pint in Kehoes for months. If the cost of me getting back on that barstool is a few thousand dead old people then so be it!



Post by Purple without emoji.




Purple said:


> I haven't had a pint in Kehoes for months. If the cost of me getting back on that barstool is a few thousand dead old people then so be it!



Post by Purple with emoji.



IsleOfMan said:


> Thankfully 95% of customers were wearing masks except for two who were non nationals.



Post by Isle of Man without emoji.



IsleOfMan said:


> Thankfully 95% of customers were wearing masks except for two who were non nationals.



Post by Isle of Man with emoji.

It seems that by tagging an emoji on to the end of your comment you can get away with posting the comment. The point is still made though.
By not tagging an emoji on to the end of your comment your post can be called a racist post.


----------



## SlurrySlump (7 Aug 2020)

Sunny says "We recently had a visit from a convoy of Travellers with English reg vehicles into our small town."  How did you know they were travellers?

Just as the OP in this thread was able to identify non Irish people in a supermarket (and called out as a racist post for saying this).


----------



## Leo (7 Aug 2020)

Tintagel said:


> How do you spot a Roma or that a person is a Traveller from their car reg? How do you spot a foreigner in a supermarket?



I think you're missing the point there completely. Concerns were raised about those in direct provision due to their cramped living conditions putting them at higher risk of contracting COVID-19. Likewise the representative organisation for Roma & traveller communities also identified themselves at higher risk due to the larger family groups and high density their communities tend towards. Sunny didn't spot someone at a distance and make any asusmption there.


----------



## Sunny (7 Aug 2020)

SlurrySlump said:


> Sunny says "We recently had a visit from a convoy of Travellers with English reg vehicles into our small town."  How did you know they were travellers?
> 
> Just as the OP in this thread was able to identify non Irish people in a supermarket (and called out as a racist post for saying this).



Oh for God's sake. Lets see. A convoy of carvavans and vehicles take over a private piece of land on the side of a main road leading into a village and make it very clear they are settling in for awhile. They are not the local caravan club. There are travellers who actually travel and set up camps. It's not racist to identify those camps. I didn't spot people walking down the street or in the shop and say look 'there goes the travellers'...….


----------



## Purple (7 Aug 2020)

SlurrySlump said:


> Just as the OP in this thread was able to identify non Irish people in a supermarket (and called out as a racist post for saying this).


How was the OP able to identify them as non Irish?
My friend is married to an Irish citizen of African descent who was born and grew up in England. Their children are dark skinned and, due to their mothers accent, speak with a slight English accent. They were born in Ireland though. Their mother is also Irish by virtue of her citizenship. If they were not wearing a mask in a shop would they be classified as non-Nationals? 
The other issue is what has the ethnicity of the people in the shop got to do with the fact that they weren't wearing masks? If the OP wasn't making assumptions about a link between their ethnicity and the fact that they weren't wearing masks then why bring it up?


----------



## Purple (7 Aug 2020)

SlurrySlump said:


> It seems that by tagging an emoji on to the end of your comment you can get away with posting the comment. The point is still made though.
> By not tagging an emoji on to the end of your comment your post can be called a racist post.


I suggest that you don't read "A Modest proposal" by Jonathan Swift. You will find his suggestion that the poor eat their babies deeply disturbing. I suggest that you instead get someone who understands humour to read it for you, and then explain it to you.

I am in no way comparing myself to Swift, just pointing out the dangers of taking everything literally.


----------



## Kimmagegirl (7 Aug 2020)

Sunny said:


> Oh for God's sake. Lets see. A convoy of carvavans and vehicles take over a private piece of land on the side of a main road leading into a village and make it very clear they are settling in for awhile. They are not the local caravan club. There are travellers who actually travel and set up camps. It's not racist to identify those camps. I didn't spot people walking down the street or in the shop and say look 'there goes the travellers'...….


Agreed, but this is not what you said in your original post.  You never said anything about them taking over a piece of private land or that they were setting up a camp or that they were not members of the local caravan club. 

You have now added context.

This is what you said in your original post.

"We recently had a visit from a convoy of Travellers with English reg vehicles into our small town. The matter was raised with local politicians and they all ran a mile from the issue. Easier to condemn a flight from the US I suppose......"  (This is one line taken out of your larger post).

You have made two further posts since you made the original post. You have now added more information.

When the Op of this thread posted one line/paragraph among six paragraphs his post was immediately jumped on by Purple and losttheplot. Even the owner of the site called it a racist post.

I am just pointing out, that we can all post a line of post in among a number of lines of post, it might not read as intended. Just as your post did not read as intended until you added more facts in subsequent posts.

We can all pick at others posts. There is a bit too much of this going on on this site. I have witnessed it over the years. I agree that interesting threads can die a death because others judge too quickly.


----------



## Kimmagegirl (7 Aug 2020)

Purple said:


> How was the OP able to identify them as non Irish?



Maybe he overhead them speaking?


----------



## Purple (7 Aug 2020)

Kimmagegirl said:


> Maybe he overhead them speaking?


Doesn't mean they are not Irish. Once they are Irish citizens they are Irish. One in every 5.8 people in this country was born in a different country. The vast majority of them are Irish.
The question remains though; why was their ethnicity/nationality mentioned in the context of not wearing masks unless there was an implied connection between their ethnicity/nationality and them not wearing masks?


----------



## Bronco Lane (7 Aug 2020)

If four lads in yellow hi viz jackets walk in to a supermarket without masks next week I suppose we could make a complaint to the builder about them.

It appears if four foreigners walk in to a supermarket speaking in a foreign accent and not wearing masks we cannot say anything because it is seen to be racist?

It is easier to make a complaint about the builders or as Sunny said

 " We recently had a visit from a convoy of Travellers with English reg vehicles into our small town. The matter was raised with local politicians and they all ran a mile from the issue.* Easier to condemn a flight from the US I suppose......*


----------



## Sunny (7 Aug 2020)

Kimmagegirl said:


> Agreed, but this is not what you said in your original post.  You never said anything about them taking over a piece of private land or that they were setting up a camp or that they were not members of the local caravan club.
> 
> You have now added context.
> 
> ...



I didn't need to add context. At no point whatsoever did I mention identifying individuals or even groups of people as travellers based on their appearance. I said we had a convoy with English reg vehicles which I assumed people were smart enough to know that meant caravans but I obviously needed to point out that I didn't mean a convoy of traveller looking individuals with English reg plates.....


----------



## Bronco Lane (7 Aug 2020)

Purple said:


> The question remains though; why was their ethnicity/nationality mentioned in the context of not wearing masks unless there was an implied connection between their ethnicity/nationality and them not wearing masks?


Could there be a problem with some ethnic/non Irish/non nationals/foreigners/non fellow countrymen/people from other countries not wearing masks?


----------



## Sunny (7 Aug 2020)

Bronco Lane said:


> Could there be a problem with some ethnic/non Irish/non nationals/foreigners/non fellow countrymen/people from other countries not wearing masks?



I doubt it unless we are now claiming all the 'Irish' looking people are wearing masks???


----------



## Purple (7 Aug 2020)

Bronco Lane said:


> Could there be a problem with some ethnic/non Irish/non nationals/foreigners/non fellow countrymen/people from other countries not wearing masks?


Should we have some sort of genetic test or a copy of our family tree displaying our "Irishness"?
There are plenty of dark skinned people who were born here. There are all sorts of accents because of parental influence etc. What, in your view, constitutes being "properly" Irish? Should we count Cork people as properly Irish and if so on what basis?


----------



## Bronco Lane (7 Aug 2020)

Sunny said:


> At no point whatsoever did I mention identifying individuals or even groups of people as travellers based on their appearance.



You did. This is what you said.



Sunny said:


> We recently had a visit from a convoy of Travellers with English reg vehicles into our small town.





Sunny said:


> I obviously needed to point out that I didn't mean a convoy of traveller looking individuals with English reg plates.....



There is no difference between your two statements. Except for now adding in the new words of "looking individuals".



Sunny said:


> I didn't need to add context



You certainly did.

So why have you made further posts then to add context?


----------



## Bronco Lane (7 Aug 2020)

Purple said:


> There are all sorts of accents



How about speaking a foreign language?  Would that be acceptable to you as it being highly likely the person is not Irish?

Maybe the OP heard a foreign language being spoken in the supermarket and assumed as most of us would do, that this person was probably not Irish.


----------



## Purple (7 Aug 2020)

Bronco Lane said:


> How about speaking a foreign language?  Would that be acceptable to you as it being highly likely the person is not Irish?
> 
> Maybe the OP heard a foreign language being spoken in the supermarket and assumed as most of us would do, that this person was probably not Irish.


No, if they are an Irish citizen they are Irish, even if they speak a foreign language.


----------



## Leo (7 Aug 2020)

So Sunny was able to add context as to why they believe this group were travellers, we can judge that assessment on the information provided.

Isle of Man was asked if they determined these people were non-nationals on anything but the colour of their skin, but that hasn't been forthcoming.


----------

