# Wreckless driving...



## Gabriel (18 Oct 2005)

Would the woman driving the flashy BMW who pulled out in front of me this morning and forced me to make an emergency stop (whilst avoiding an OAP at the same time) and then just drove away please stand up?

I was happily motoring along this morning, over the mountains, to get to the far side of Knocklyon. There's a new estate along the road I travel. I'd say I was about 150-200 metres away from the entrance when she first stuck her nose out to have a look. 150 metres is quite a distance. At about 10 metres (I kid you not) she pulled right out in front of me. There was an elderly bloke walking towards me on my left and she was pulling out from my right. You know that feeling you have (I've had it once before) when you just know you're going to crash and you brace for the impact. All I could do was keep the car straight (to avoid the OAP) and brake as hard as I could. Do you think she even heard my brakes screeching to a halt? No no...she wasn't even in a rush to make it out onto the road. I've seen hedgehogs make faster turns. 
I'd say I brought the car to a COMPLETE standstill about 5 centimetres from her back bumper. That's it!
Now...this woman has very nearly caused a serious accident. Do you think she'd stop and apologise...even a wave of her hand? Not a chance. I hope my leaning on the horn behind her afterwards and the fingers I so generously gave her made her think about the serious accident she nearly caused....but I doubt it.

I won't even get into the history of every near miss I've ever had...but needless to say there's been one identical factor (in the other car) in every instance. I'll leave that one up to your imaginations...


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## ClubMan (18 Oct 2005)

Gabriel said:
			
		

> Would the woman driving the flashy BMW who pulled out in front of me this morning and forced me to make an emergency stop (whilst avoiding an OAP at the same time) and then just drove away please stand up?


How do you know that she was an _AAM _contributor?


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## Gabriel (18 Oct 2005)

ClubMan said:
			
		

> How do you know that she was an _AAM _contributor?



Well, I don't really  It was just a figure of speech! I hope she is mind you.


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## stobear (18 Oct 2005)

The worst thing about this incident which I have experienced is that the person doesn't seem to realise what nearly happened. Similar thing happened to me except she stopped moving onto the road I was on, I got past her and as there was no one behind us I crawled along about 15kph and made various gestures to her, she slowed behind me and eventually acknowledged her error. I was nearly going to stop and ask her what she was at, but I think she got the message.


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## Gabriel (18 Oct 2005)

Yeah Stobear...thing is she'd have to be really stupid not to notice me screeching to a halt behind her...aerated brakes making a thunderous noise.

I was so unbelievably angry afterwards I was close to overtaking her and forcing her to stop...but I thought better of it and just continued on calling her every name under the sun, flashing her with my lights and giving her the fingers a few more times. 

To not even acknowledge this though is the height of ignorance. I hope she has a really crap day at work wherever she is.


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## Vanilla (18 Oct 2005)

So whats the common denominator? The BMW? Or the fact that she is a woman?


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## Gabriel (18 Oct 2005)

Vanilla said:
			
		

> So whats the common denominator? The BMW? Or the fact that she is a woman?



At the risk of being berated by everyone on this board...the common denominator in over 10 years of driving is women.

Sorry if that offends anyone. That's been my experience. Actually, I tell a lie. Women, taxi drivers and the odd white van driver. They're the only drivers I have come across who make unbelievably wreckless or plain bad decisions whilst driving and never apologise for it. 

It's not just the odd time either...it's regular...doing things you just don't do. Not having any road sense. Not understanding the concept of moving with traffic. Not understanding how to overtake parked buses. Putting on makeup whilst driving. Not watching who's behind them whilst pulling out of driving spaces. Not moving their car forward a few inches to let a fellow motorist turn into a road or driveway. The list goes on....

This morning must have been a special morning. This was one of three incidents I had. At one point - in Sandymount village, one elderly woman swerved from the other side of the road right in front of me so that she could park her car up on the kerb to my left. Never mind the fact that I was approaching. I had to brake (quite hard) to let her do this. Luckily after my earlier encounter I was prepared for anything...

Yes, I've seen men make poor judgements too (and I'm sure I've made a few in my time) but the difference is I raise my hand and apologise when I do.


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## ClubMan (18 Oct 2005)

Gabriel said:
			
		

> They're the only drivers I have come across who make unbelievably wreckless or plain bad decisions whilst driving and never apologise for it.
> 
> ...
> 
> Yes, I've seen men make poor judgements too (and I'm sure I've made a few in my time) but the difference is I raise my hand and apologise when I do.


You seem to be contradicting yourself there - you say that only certain other classes of drivers make mistakes but then admit to making them yourself.


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## Gabriel (18 Oct 2005)

ClubMan said:
			
		

> You seem to be contraicting yourseld there - only others make mistakes but you are prone to them too.



No...no contradictions. The point I made in my first post was that what made me so angry was the complete lack of acknowledgement for the serious accident she'd very nearly caused. She just drove off.

I've made the odd error of judgement myself...nothing like this mind you. But in every instance I've made it my business to apologise in one way or other. It only requires a wave of the hand in most cases.

I realise that what most people like to hear is that there are bad 'drivers' out there (both male and female)...but I'm sorry, my overriding experience is that most of them are female. The errors they make are astounding and they rarely if ever apologise for them or even seem to realise what they've done.


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## podgerodge (18 Oct 2005)

Gabriel said:
			
		

> but I'm sorry, my overriding experience is that most of them are female. The errors they make are astounding and they rarely if ever apologise for them or even seem to realise what they've done.



Absolutely in my experience too.  And anytime I'm driving with my wife, she is the first to accept it - we have a pretend bet going on for a few years now - anytime you see something blindingly stupid I bet a virtual fiver at odds of 1/5 that it's a woman behind the wheel.  I am now virtually rich even at those bad odds.

Funniest one (and its not a myth, it happens all the time) is when a woman in front of you spots a bike on the left and careers over to the right hand side of the road to avoid the bike - oblivious to the heart trouble they are causing the oncoming traffic!

Don't get me started on traffic lanes - they're just nice designs on the road!

(Yes, accepted not always women, sometimes taxis, van drivers etc but the difference here is that they KNOW what they're doing!)


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## Cahir (18 Oct 2005)

I think bad drivers tend to be women over 40 and men over about 55 and anyone who drives a BMW!


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## Gabriel (18 Oct 2005)

podgerodge said:
			
		

> Absolutely in my experience too.  And anytime I'm driving with my wife, she is the first to accept it - we have a pretend bet going on for a few years now - anytime you see something blindingly stupid I bet a virtual fiver at odds of 1/5 that it's a woman behind the wheel.  I am now virtually rich even at those bad odds.



A friend of mine is a sales rep and even she admits to me that "women can't drive"...she being an exception as she's quite good actually. And I don't mean to say 'all women' can't drive...but it's the ones who just have no concept of how to drive properly or make correct judgements that cause such heartache.

Incidentally, the swerving 10 feet to the other side of the road as they're passing a cyclist (or my favourite - when they slow down to a near standstill when passing one) is because they have no judgement of where the left side of their car is.


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## Bamhan (18 Oct 2005)

As a woman driver, who drives on average 400 miles per week, I sadly have to agree when I see something utterly ridiculous occur on the road it tends to be a woman driver.
A pet peeve of mine however is men and it is usually men 
who drive so close to your bumper they may as well be in the back seat......You know they are thinking I have to ovetake this woman at the first available opportunity.....til then I will intimidate her so she will get out of my way.....
Ain't gonna happen if I am the woman driver.
And before anyone says it I will admit to suffering from an extreme form of raod rage.....


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## Vanilla (18 Oct 2005)

*Male chauvinist theories...*

Interesting that some men still hold on to the belief that more women than men are 'bad' drivers, despite the statistics clearly showing for example:



> Car crashes are the number one killers of young men (16 - 25) in Ireland and driving at excess speed is the primary cause of these crashes.
> Driver error was the cause of 81% of all fatal and injury crashes from 1997 to 2000. Male drivers aged between 18 and 24 represented (24%) the majority of these drivers.​




and 



> The profile of the young driver most likely to be killed/injured in car crash is:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
and indeed



> Drink driving is predominantly a male problem. Men cause almost nine out of ten alcohol-related serious and fatal road crashes.


 
The above are taken from the National Road Safety Council website- www.nsc.ie

Of course, anecdotal evidence is so compelling....​


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## Observer (18 Oct 2005)

Interesting post.  Essentially I think Gabriel is correct when he describes certain behaviours predominantly indulged in by female drivers.  Of course male drivers have faults too.  When you are overtaken by a driver doing 90mph on a blind bend/hill on a single carriageway so-called national primary road - guess what - it's a man.  Similarly, when you're tailgated at a distance of 10 feet at high speed, yep, that's a man too!   Or when you're driving in a line of traffic, carefully leaving the correct distance to the vehicle in front, guess who overtakes and slots into the too-small gap.  Yes, that'll be the man.`

But back to the girls - I can only come to the conclusion that male and female brains are wired differently.  Women do not seem to have as well developed a sense of spatial awareness - watch behaviour in a supermarket aisle.  Two women will happily stop for a chat, trolleys side by side, oblivious to the geometrical fact that this blocks the aisle.  It's like it doesn't even OCCUR to them that this might be a problem - witness the genuine looks of surprise when somebody says excuse me and tries to get past!

Women don't think (in a spatial sense) and are unaware of the consequences - men do, but are reckless as to the consequences.  Fair summary?


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## podgerodge (18 Oct 2005)

Observer said:
			
		

> Women don't think (in a spatial sense) and are unaware of the consequences - men do, but are reckless as to the consequences.  Fair summary?



Couldn't agree more. Men are dangerously stupid, Women are stupidly stupid. (At the wheel)


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## Seagull (18 Oct 2005)

I presume that the Wreckless driving is a typo rather than a pun. I suppose it works either way as you managed to avoid her.


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## Gabriel (18 Oct 2005)

Good post Observer and spot on the nose on both counts.

High speed car crashes are what men/ boy racers are good at.
Compete lack of spatial awareness and general road sense is what most women tend to be bad at.

Vanilla, in relation to road deaths & crashes etc...yes, men (especially young men) are statistically more responsible. But that's not what I'm talking about...and as I said previously, in just over ten years of driving the vast majority of near misses (in day to day traffic - built up areas) I've had have been down to woman in cars doing incredibly stupid things. 

That isn't meant to be chauvanistic...just my experience.


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## Vanilla (18 Oct 2005)

Well if we are coming back to anecdotal evidence, I still disagree. In my driving experience ( longer than yours ) I have not found 'women in cars doing incredibly stupid things' to be prevalent. In my experience both men and women can do stupid things in cars, but I certainly would not agree that more women than men do stupid things. 

Indeed if you go down to the district court any day of the week and have a look at the list of road traffic offences, the names will, in the vast majority of cases, be overwhelmingly predominantly male.

So statistics show that young males cause most of the injury and fatal road traffic accidents, and you agree with that, and most drink driving offences are male, and yet you still come to the conclusion that women are in general 'bad' drivers when compared to male drivers? If thats not a biased view, then what is? 

And by the way, I came across this definition of a chauvinist on the web:



> a person with a prejudiced belief in the superiority of his or her own kind


 
Could that be you?


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## Gabriel (18 Oct 2005)

Sorry Vanilla, I have no interest in arguing your experiences versus mine. They obviously differ.
If you want to call me a chauvanist then that's your prerogative. No skin off my nose. This is all anonymous after all.

I'm not referring to car crashes, deaths or drink driving. 

I'm referring to day to day driving, in traffic. I do the vast majority of my driving between 8 and 10 in the morning and 5 and 7 in the evening. This is where I see most of the nonsense I'm referring to.

*"a person with a prejudiced belief in the superiority of his or her own kind "*

As for this reference, that's a bit sad really. When you sling mud like this it's difficult to get off...but a lot of people agree with me. Read back through the posts. Bamhan agrees...so does she have a "prejudiced belief in the superiority of his or her own kind"? Now I'm confused...lol!


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## Humpback (18 Oct 2005)

Vanilla said:
			
		

> In my driving experience ( longer than yours ) I have not found 'women in cars doing incredibly stupid things' to be prevalent.


 
A country road, 3pm in the afternoon. Single line of traffic through a "twisty" section of about 4-5miles.

Driving behind a locally registered car at constant 100kph, driven by a woman driver - I know because she overtook me previously on a single white line just prior to the twisty bit. Was obviously a local and wanted to "make time" by not being behind non-local car, mine, for the upcoming twisty bit.

No problems there. Progress for a mile or so.

Suddenly, and without any obvious reason, car slowed down to 50-55kph. No change in road conditions, or speed limits.

Went on for about a mile, and I decided to "politely" flash a couple of times to remind her that she was holding up quite a considerable line of traffic at this stage.

I kid you not but she held out in her left hand her mobile phone and waved it around for me to see as if to say "can't you see, I'm on the phone".........


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## CCOVICH (18 Oct 2005)

I would have thought that everyone should aspire to wreckless driving  .


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## Gabriel (18 Oct 2005)

CCOVICH said:
			
		

> I would have thought that everyone should aspire to wreckless driving  .



Yes...I should have said earlier when Seagull mentioned it. Wreckless was a play on words referring to the ability to keep your car intact whilst noting and avoiding the gombeens around you.


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## Vanilla (18 Oct 2005)

> I'm not referring to car crashes, deaths or drink driving.


 Oh , I see, you are NOT referring to the above, yet still women are worse drivers than men, even though it is statistically proven that men cause more crashes etc etc. 



> If you want to call me a chauvanist then that's your prerogative. No skin off my nose.


 
I didn't, I asked you if you were, based on the definition quoted. There is a difference. 



> but a lot of people agree with me.


 
Yes, indeed, despite statistical evidence to the contrary. I wonder why this is so? Could it be because these type of anecdotal references you make are so common? 



> Sorry Vanilla, I have no interest in arguing your experiences versus mine. They obviously differ.


 
I quoted my experiences since this whole thread seems to be based only on anecdotal evidence- therefore mine should be equally as relevant as yours or anyone elses. And if you are going to make such a sweeping statement about one gender, then you should at least expect to be challenged on it, even if it is only on the same grounds that you are making that allegation ( i.e. personal experience).

In relation to Ronan D John, I note your one experience that you have quoted, and I have no reason to doubt that this is an accurate account of what happened. As a complete aside, have you considered the possibility that the reason this lady was waving her mobile phone at you was because she thought she was experiencing a road rage incident ( rightly or wrongly) and was warning you that she would call the guards?

And CCOVICH, based on Gabriels second last post, it appears that he is indeed referring to wreckless driving rather than reckless driving.


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## MissRibena (18 Oct 2005)

I definitely don't agree that women are the "stupid" or ill-mannered drivers on the road and I too drive around 400 miles a week and have been doing so a little over ten years.  What I believe is that people who are already prejudiced about women drivers will pay more attention to who is driving the car when a mistake is made and take notice only when the evidence backs up their prejudices.  I've even seen my own boyfriend do this.  

It is interesting that more than one (presumably male) poster here has admitted to some kind of intimidating behaviour in response to something "stupid" a woman has done but fail to see anything stupid or reckless in that.   Ring the Garda hotline and report if you have problem with someone's driving - you are not the traffic police and it's not up to you to "politely" (lovely manners!) request someone to up their speed from 50-55mph the couple of miles to the speed limit on a road with "twisty bits" and single white lines; mobile phone or not.  If you don't want to report it, let it go.  You are only making yourself angry and distracted a liability on the road yourself.

I'm just waiting on the thread about the new EU members driving habits/lack of insurance/blah blah blah to start, seeing as this is Vent Your Driving Prejudice Day.

Rebecca


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## Gabriel (18 Oct 2005)

> Oh , I see, you are NOT referring to the above, yet still women are worse drivers than men, even though it is statistically proven that men cause more crashes etc etc.



Re-read my previous post where I pointed out the type of driving I'm referring to.



> I didn't, I asked you if you were, based on the definition quoted. There is a difference.



I see...ahem...you didn't say I was a chauvanist, you were *asking* me if I was a chauvanist? 

Maybe you'd like to ask Bamhan the same question?



> I wonder why this is so? Could it be because these type of anecdotal references you make are so common?



I don't see your point?



> And if you are going to make such a sweeping statement about one gender, then you should at least expect to be challenged on it, even if it is only on the same grounds that you are making that allegation ( i.e. personal experience).



How exactly does that work then? I don't really see that. In ten years this has been "my" experience. So are you challenging "my" experience, statistical facts in relation to road deaths and incidents, or just the fact that you don't like the fact I've picked on women drivers in this manner?



> And CCOVICH, based on Gabriels second last post, it appears that he is indeed referring to wreckless driving rather than reckless driving.



Actually, I was referring to both.


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## Murt10 (18 Oct 2005)

Got this from the Garda website.

"If you witness dangerous driving, suspected drunken driving etc., call the Gardaí on 999 or 112, or on Traffic Watch Lo-call 1890 205805. Try to get the make, colour and registration number of the vehicle and the direction in which it is heading. Don't leave it to others to call us - your call could save a life."


Might be worth keying that no into your mobile. She may have been pissed as a knewt or as high as a kite or whatever.




Murt


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## RainyDay (18 Oct 2005)

Murt10 said:
			
		

> Got this from the Garda website.
> 
> "If you witness dangerous driving, suspected drunken driving etc., call the Gardaí on 999 or 112, or on Traffic Watch Lo-call 1890 205805. Try to get the make, colour and registration number of the vehicle and the direction in which it is heading. Don't leave it to others to call us - your call could save a life."
> 
> ...


Good advice, but note that for the Gardai to proceed with any prosecution, you'll need to be prepared to call into the station where the offence occured and give a full statement.


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## Sarah W (18 Oct 2005)

Cahir said:
			
		

> I think bad drivers tend to be women over 40 and men over about 55 and anyone who drives a BMW!



So I either have to have a sex change for the next 15 years or buy a different make of car? Ho hum, a Merc it is then 

But seriously, I've been driving since I was 17 and have only had one, very minor, bump in all those decades. I know it's a very old argument but if women drivers are as bad as you all seem to claim why is my insurance cheaper than yours?

Sarah

www.rea.ie


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## fobs (18 Oct 2005)

I think a lot of the repsonses to people doing foolish things on the road as a form of road rage! If someone makes a mistake on the road what purpose is served by flashing them and beeping your horn or overtaking them and making rude hand gestures? If a person is not an experienced driver then this can only have an even more negative effect on their driving as it will intimidate them into making futher mistakes.

I can understand a person beeping or flashing someone as a preventative measure (i.e stop them coming out at a junction) but after the fact it serves no purpose!
This type of over the top reaction is  definately behaviour I see that can be mostly attributed to men.

I think both male and female driver makes mistakes on the road but the majority of dangerous driving is committted by men as statistics and higher insurance premiums would prove.

The original incident was not caused _because_ the driver was a _woman_ but because _the driver_ made a mistake. Their gender didn't casue the accident to occur!


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## Gabriel (18 Oct 2005)

fobs said:
			
		

> I think a lot of the repsonses to people doing foolish things on the road as a form of road rage! If someone makes a mistake on the road what purpose is served bflashing them and beeping your horn or overtaking them and making rude hand gestures.
> If a person is not an experienced driver then this can only have an even more negative effect on their driving as it will intimidate them into making futher mistakes.
> I can understand a person beeping or flashing someonew as a preventative measure (i.e stop them coming out at a junction) but after the fact it serves no purpose!
> This is definately behaviour I see that can be mostly attributed to men.
> ...




Yeah...see how you feel after your heart enters your throat area and you've jumped up and down on your brakes in an effort to not kill yourself and the driver in question just drives off wihout a care in the world. 
Calling my reaction to that road rage is all well and good but she deserved every ounce of it...and more. I was livid afterwards.
Should I instead have driven on with a smile on my face? I don't think so...

I don't care if she was experienced or not. She needed to be told, in no uncertain terms, that she nearly killed me. Hopefully my message got through and she'll bother to take a look right and left next time she comes out of her entrance in the mornings.

Also, you can be as politically correct as you like...and I alluded to that earlier. I'm talking about my experiences. If you want to believe I'm biased and backing up my own prejudices blah blah then that's for you to decide. 
That's what people who don't agree with it tend to say to be honest.
Personally, if you can't see this type of behaviour, mainly from women, on the road then you're either choosing to ignore it or you're oblivious to it. That's my take on it.

Last week I was driving home through Sandymount (again) and turning off the Simmonscourt road. There was someone trying to turn onto it and traffic piling up behind him. The car blocking him had about 6-7 feet between her and the car in front. Do you think she'd inch forward for him? I saw the whole thing...he waved to her and asked her (nicely) to edge forward and she just turned her head and sat there....not moving. Day in day out I see all sorts of strange behaviour like this. No road courtesy, no awareness of stuff going on. No use of mirrors when making a lane change...

Lol...how popular am I now?!!!


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## Vanilla (18 Oct 2005)

Two points, the first is that the only evidence offered here to support the original tenet is anecdotal. The evidence I have offered to support the opposite is based on fact.


Secondly,


> I see...ahem...you didn't say I was a chauvanist, you were *asking* me if I was a chauvanist?


 
You seem to be trying to make what was a tongue in cheek remark into a personal attack on you. Could this be because your argument is weak and you wish to detract from it?


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## Gabriel (18 Oct 2005)

Vanilla said:
			
		

> Two points, the first is that the only evidence offered here to support the original tenet is anecdotal. The evidence I have offered to support the opposite is based on fact.
> 
> 
> Secondly,
> ...



Vanilla,

I'm sorry that you can't read my posts. If you go back and review them you'll see I was NOT referring to road death/crash statistics. I think I've mentioned that a number of times. I don't think I can make that any clearer for you.

And yes...I already qualified that I'm having a rant based on "MY EXPERIENCES". 

The evidence you have offered is for another debate altogether..

As for my argument? I'm having a rant Vanilla. This has been my experince driving in Dublin over the past ten years. And it's not just my experience. And it's not just the experience of men. Lots of women will say the same thing (as some have already done here).

You're out to prove a point Vanilla but you're on your own I'm afraid. I'm not offering statistical analysis to back up my assertions...unless you can point me to some statistics on spatial awareness whilst driving and basic road courtesy and a pie chart of how men/women cope better with putting on makeup whilst driving or understand the concept of lanes!!?


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## Vanilla (18 Oct 2005)

> You're out to prove a point Vanilla but you're on your own I'm afraid.


 Wrong on two counts, firstly I'm out to disprove your point, and secondly it appears I'm not on my own, either factually or anecdotally. 

You can have a rant all you want, but as I said, if you are going to make sweeping statements about one gender you should expect to be challenged.

Your argument would also be strengthened if you could back it up factually but it appears you do not intend to even try to do that.


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## Diziet (18 Oct 2005)

Interesting thread - I'd say good driving is the type that doesn't get you and other people killed. So the facts are that young men are significanly worse drivers than anyone else, women included. And all the spatial awareness in the world does not help if you lose control of the car at 100mph. 

On the anecdotal level, the evidence is that this kind of experience is notoriously unreliable. If you expect that women are the worse drivers, you will find plenty of examples, ditto for men. It is not what happens out there, but the way one notices and experiences things. Rant all you like; if it's just an rant justifiable only on a personal level, then OK. But there is no verifiable factual basis.


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## Gabriel (18 Oct 2005)

Vanilla said:
			
		

> Wrong on two counts, firstly I'm out to disprove your point, and secondly it appears I'm not on my own, either factually or anecdotally.



Yes...except you're trying to disprove my point with erroneous data that is not based on what I'm talking about.



			
				Vanilla said:
			
		

> You can have a rant all you want, but as I said, if you are going to make sweeping statements about one gender you should expect to be challenged.



And if you can show me data or statistics that are relevant to MY argument then that'll be great.



			
				Vanilla said:
			
		

> Your argument would also be strengthened if you could back it up factually but it appears you do not intend to even try to do that.



Like I just said...point me in the direction of this data please...


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## Vanilla (18 Oct 2005)

> And if you can show me data or statistics that are relevant to MY argument then that'll be great.


 
If I could do that, I'd hardly be disagreeing with you, would I?

As I stated, it appears you have no intention of backing up your argument with data, but instead are trying to call on me to disprove it. Nice try, but no cigar.


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## MissRibena (18 Oct 2005)

So you want the person challenging your argument on the basis that you provide no evidence to go and FIND the evidence for you?

This is turning into one of those back-firing threads now and I'm starting to like it  

Rebecca


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## Gabriel (18 Oct 2005)

MissRibena said:
			
		

> So you want the person challenging your argument on the basis that you provide no evidence to go and FIND the evidence for you?
> 
> This is turning into one of those back-firing threads now and I'm starting to like it
> 
> Rebecca



No...just that if Vanilla wants to disprove the point I'm making he/she should provide evidence that is contrary to my argument and not his/hers.

This is 'Letting Off Steam' right? It's not 'Make a point and back it up with factual evidence' necessarily is it?

I mean are there facts out there for what I'm talking about? I don't think there is...


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## Vanilla (18 Oct 2005)

All good debates should have some factual basis, surely? 

Otherwise I could just start a thread on how I hate looking at the cows on the moon, and ignore everyone else pointing out that there are no cows on the moon, since I feel like letting off steam about it. 

Come on, Gabriel, this is the best debate I've had so far this month, don't let us down now with a cop-out?


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## Gabriel (18 Oct 2005)

Vanilla said:
			
		

> All good debates should have some factual basis, surely?
> 
> Otherwise I could just start a thread on how I hate looking at the cows on the moon, and ignore everyone else pointing out that there are no cows on the moon, since I feel like letting off steam about it.
> 
> Come on, Gabriel, this is the best debate I've had so far this month, don't let us down now with a cop-out?




Lol...I have to go to an interview right now...seriously.

I'll be back for more tomorrow.

P.S...I hate those damn cows too...always mooing at me when I look up


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## Observer (18 Oct 2005)

Well, if there's no cows on the moon, where did all the cheese come from????


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## podgerodge (18 Oct 2005)

Lads (and ladies!)

The original point is being lost here by those disagreeing with Gabriel.  Nobody, nobody at all, is disputing the fact that men by reckless driving cause accidents which cost large sums of money for the insurers and that women are less likely to do so.  Hence the cheaper insurance for women and the "women are better drivers" myth.  "Women are safer drivers" would be more factually correct.

We are talking about non 'important' issues here - the things that mainly women do that infuriate other drivers but which do not end up (in the main part) in huge insurance claims.

It is fair to state that women (nearly ALWAYS women without exception) cross the road to avoid bikes, slow down for no particular reason or move within a broad range of speeds on the same road depending on what is going on in their head, take roundabouts starting in one lane and ending in another etc etc.

Any woman that looks clearly at the issue without letting hormones getting involved (hehe that'll get a reaction!) would, and has agreed with this opinion.
Including my wife albeit reluctantly!


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## michaelm (18 Oct 2005)

I'd have to agree with Vanilla that statistically young male drivers are more likely to be involved in fatal accidents.  Many young male drivers are idiots behind the wheel and often drive beyond their capabilities, I think male drivers improve drastically once the grow up/wise up a bit.  I'd also have to agree with Gabriel that many women drivers are not particularly aware of what's going on around them on the roads and many are clueless.  Scientifically the female brain is not as geared for 3D spatialization as the male brain that might lend some support to Gabriel's rant.  Maybe do this test http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanbody/sex/index_cookie.shtml it's not very good but at the start and the end there are spatialization tests, I got 20/20 in test one and 12/12 in test six but then I'm male so maybe I had an unfair advantage


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## MissRibena (19 Oct 2005)

Am I alone in finding it incredible that some men continue to think like this and worse still, think it's ok, and even amusing to voice this kind of bunkum?  I was originally doing my best to not read this thread but it's irresistable in its ridiculousness.

Rebecca


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## fobs (19 Oct 2005)

I too find it ridiculous! If you believe that woman drivers are worse than men then you will remenmber every incident on the road which involved a woman but equally ignore all those incidents that involved men. I think there are inexperienced,careless or reckless drivers of both sexes but statistics would prove that most _fatal crashes are caused by men._

This is not to say that _all men_ are dangerous drivers but there are a higher percentage of that catagory than there are in women.
Equally you could say that _younger drivers _may be less experienced than older drivers...
Those just after passing their test are less experienced..
Those after a few drinks are less spatially aware ...
Those with more powerful cars tend to speed more...
We can all make loads of generalisations but cannot _prove_ a sweeping statement that women are worse drivers than men based on one of two of our memorable experences and expect everyone else to have had the same experences and agree.


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## Gabriel (19 Oct 2005)

MissRibena said:
			
		

> Am I alone in finding it incredible that some men continue to think like this and worse still, think it's ok, and even amusing to voice this kind of bunkum?  I was originally doing my best to not read this thread but it's irresistable in its ridiculousness.



I thought about all of this a little last night...

Bamhan...I hope you don't mind me continuously using you as an example...it's just that I happened to agree with you...



			
				Bamhan said:
			
		

> As a woman driver, who drives on average 400 miles per week, I sadly have to agree when I see something utterly ridiculous occur on the road it tends to be a woman driver.
> A pet peeve of mine however is men and it is usually men
> who drive so close to your bumper they may as well be in the back seat......You know they are thinking I have to ovetake this woman at the first available opportunity.....til then I will intimidate her so she will get out of my way.....
> Ain't gonna happen if I am the woman driver.
> And before anyone says it I will admit to suffering from an extreme form of raod rage.....



So...here's what I find ridiculous Miss Ribena...no one has yet pointed out the (possible?) chauvanistic overtones implied in Bamhan's post. It's always *men* who drive two inches away from your bumper. What does she base this theory on I wonder? Is there any statistical data to back this up? Any facts on the subject? No.
*Yet...no one raised an eyebrow to it when it was said!!! Funny that!*

Why is this I wonder? Is it because she was right...an observation that happens to correspond with fact? Was she saying that all men drive two inches from her back bumper? No...she wasn't...we still know she was right though don't we?
How many women have you seen tailing you recently?!!!!

Double standards? Yes...absolutely.

Y'see what I always find amusing about these types of discussions is that if I had said exactly the same thing but used men as an example instead of women (in relation to aspects of driving like spatial awareness etc) no one would have raised an eyebrow. Yes, certainly people might have pointed out that they disagree with me...but certainly I wouldn't be getting these types of protests would I? 
As I said before...it's easy to stand there and look indignant and imply that the types of men who make these claims are in some way caveman like or already prejudiced beforehand in this regard. That fits in nicely with your view of the world (and men for that matter). 

If I posted on the subject that it's mainly young men I see getting into fights after closing time and that I'd based this on anecdotael evidence over the past ten years would you be up in arms saying that surely this just wasn't true? 
No...you wouldn't. Why?...because it's reasonable...because the media has been telling us this for years...and because you already know men are more predetermind to be violent with alcohol on them. It fits stereotypes yet it also makes sense...and you know it.

Is it reasonable for me to think or say that I believe _'some'_ women are poor drivers who have poor road skills and even worse road awareness? Well...frankly yes it is. How do you know if I'm prejudiced towards women in this regard or not? You don't.


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## podgerodge (19 Oct 2005)

Will the people that continually post about fatal crashes maybe set up a new thread.  Thats simply not what this thread is about.  This thread is not chauvinistic. It is not picking on women. It is not ridiculous.  It is simply some observations - many of which have been experienced by men AND women on this thread on a regular basis.

God, if I had a video camera attached to my dashboard...


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## fobs (19 Oct 2005)

And if I had a videocamera attached to mine...but we don't.
If we are all talking about our experiences it shouldn't surprise you that people will have had different experiences on the road than you and therefore have different views.
I _don't _think that women are worse drivers than men and just because one female poster may agree with you doesn't prove your argument. I find a lot of incidences on the road where old drivers may cause a nuisance by driving slowly but I allow for that as their reactions may be slower and don't feel the need to drive up their ar** and flash them to move along. 
Also I find that younger male drivers in my experience drive too closely to the car in front,overtake on junctions and continuous white lines and speed.
Also some L-plate drivers (both male and female) can make mistakes and their car might conk out on them. I will leave plenty of distance between them and not overtake them recklessly.
As drivers we have to anticipate these things. 
You can let someone know they have made a mistake by beeping or flashing them _once_ or reporting them if it causes a near crash but to do more than this IS road rage and serves no purpose other than to make it more likely that another dangerous incident will occur.


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## Gabriel (19 Oct 2005)

fobs said:
			
		

> And if I had a videocamera attached to mine...but we don't.
> If we are all talking about our experiences it shouldn't surprise you that people will have had different experiences on the road than you and therefore have different views.



I've no problem with that point of view fobs...what I do have a problem with is the indignant responses and the "are there really men who still think like this?" type retorts.



			
				fobs said:
			
		

> I _don't _think that women are worse drivers than men and just because one female poster may agree with you doesn't prove your argument.



Your missing (or avoiding) the point I made altogether though really, aren't you?
I wasn't saying that because one woman agreed with me I was right. I was pointing out the indignant responses to my posts whilst highlighting that no one questioned Bamhan.



			
				fobs said:
			
		

> Also I find that younger male drivers in my experience drive too closely to the car in front,overtake on junctions and continuous white lines and speed.



Lol...this just gets funnier. You're only proving to me that it's quite reasonable to post your judgements based on your own experiences. I'm a man...should I be highly offended by that remark?



			
				fobs said:
			
		

> You can let someone know they have made a mistake by beeping or flashing them _once_ or reporting them if it causes a near crash but to do more than this IS road rage and serves no purpose other than to make it more likely that another dangerous incident will occur.



That's easy to say when you're sitting in front of your computer. See how you react if you'd been in my situation yesterday. I've yet to see someone come out of a very near serious accident and not have one of two reactions - anger or shock.


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## fobs (19 Oct 2005)

I did recount my experiences but never said "all young male drivers are worse than all young female driver...




> thing is she'd have to be really stupid not to notice me screeching to a halt behind her...aerated brakes making a thunderous noise.
> 
> I was so unbelievably angry afterwards I was close to overtaking her and forcing her to stop...but I thought better of it and just continued on calling her every name under the sun, flashing her with my lights and giving her the fingers a few more times


 
I know you were angry but this is definately OTT. What would you have done if she had stopped the car. She was probably too petrifeid of you to aknowledge you as you were acting like a madman! You are not the traffic police!
Again I don't think this reaction was warranted.


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## Gabriel (19 Oct 2005)

*Again you're choosing to ignore or avoid the point I was making.*

You said...and I quote...



> Also I find that younger male drivers in my experience drive too closely to the car in front,overtake on junctions and continuous white lines and speed.



I never said you said "all young male drivers are worse than all young female driver..."
As a matter of fact I never even implied that was what you were saying so I don't really know where you're taking that from??!

I was referring to the fact that *it's reasonable for you to say this about male drivers* but seemingly *unreasonable for me to say something about female drivers*. Double standards. You don't even see that though do you?


You've already made your point on my reaction. I happen to disagree with you. She deserved every bit of my anger and a whole lot more too. She nearly killed me and she never even acknowledged it. I only lost it after she drove off without a care in the world after me screeching to a standstill behind her. Maybe if she'd have had some manners I wouldn't have lost my cool.
Frankly though I don't really care that you happen to think I was OTT. That's a mute point for me.


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## fobs (19 Oct 2005)

If you don't care what people think then don't post here canvassing people's opinions!


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## Gabriel (19 Oct 2005)

fobs said:
			
		

> If you don't care what people think then don't post here canvassing people's opinions!



For a third time you're choosing to ignore the point I made. Fair enough.

The point I originally made was not about my reaction to the near accident...it was about the near accident itself.
You've already made your point about my reaction (more than once) and I've already responded to it (more than once).

If you don't want to respond to the relevant points I've made about _double standards_ that's your business.


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## MissRibena (19 Oct 2005)

Gabriel, you are incorrect on the double standards issue. I believe I don’t have double standards or at the very least do my best not to. That doesn’t mean that I can fight every prejudiced comment ever made. All I can do is challenge those that seem to gain momentum or are blatant and as a woman and a proud feminist I tend to take particular notice of those issues but am not restricted to those and have taken issue here before with other completely different views (and have had mine confronted likewise). If you find Bamhans post objectionable, then you challenge it; I'm not sure why you expect others to make your points for you. If you read back, I've referred to the thread in its entirety as being ridiculous rather than just your particular point and I took issue with the “revengeful” driving of other posters too, which in my opinion was the most ridiculous point since the thread seems to have been started about stupid driving and bad driving etiquette. 


With regard to Fobs point about the young drivers, which is not a view I share incidentally, at least there are statistics that might lend weight to it. Your point on the other hand rather than having evidence to back it up has, if anything, plenty of evidence to the contrary. We are all entitled to make our opinions how we like, but I prefer to question my views, have a look at the facts and listen to a reasonable debate before making up my mind or changing it. Your anecdotes have done nothing to convince me you are right in your earlier premise:




			
				Gabriel said:
			
		

> I realise that what most people like to hear is that there are bad 'drivers' out there (both male and female)...but I'm sorry, my overriding experience is that most of them are female.





			
				Gabriel said:
			
		

> > And while you continue to make such a point, I will continue to disagree with it unless you come up with something that is more convincing. It’s up to the young drivers, taxi drivers, white van drivers, etc. etc. to take up their own issues with you – I wish them every luck.
> >
> >
> > Rebecca


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## Gabriel (19 Oct 2005)

MissRibena said:
			
		

> Gabriel, you are incorrect on the double standards issue. I believe I don’t have double standards or at the very least do my best not to. That doesn’t mean that I can fight every prejudiced comment ever made.




Ah...interesting. Y'see you can delve much deeper into this. First of all, let's be clear about something. You were quite adamant that this was a male chauvanist issue. In fact you jumped on the men in this particular instance...



			
				MissRibena said:
			
		

> Am I alone in finding it incredible that some men continue to think like this and worse still, think it's ok, and even amusing to voice this kind of bunkum? I was originally doing my best to not read this thread but it's irresistable in its ridiculousness.



I happen to believe that you don't have double standards...or that you believe that at any rate. But it doesn't show through in your words. What does shine through is your feminism (something to be proud of - obviously)...but unfortunately you've automatically equated me making comments about my experiences as chauvanistic. Or at least that was implied.
So...perhaps you'd like to deal with that issue? 

What strikes me as true in all of this is that because Gabriel=man and Gabriel disses women drivers Gabriel must be sexist pig!! 

That's the vibe I've been getting....not that it bothers me greatly, as I know myself better than most (I'd hope).
My point is you've come at this whole subject from the aspect of if men make derogatory comments about womens capabilities then they're not only wrong but also must be ignorant....and also that you'll happily ignore comments made about men as that doesn't _appear_ to concern you. Personally, I'd question those reactions...and I don't mean that in any off hand manner.

I never came at this issue from a chauvanistic point of view. I'm just giving my honest appraisal of what I see every day.  



			
				MissRibena said:
			
		

> If you find Bamhans post objectionable, then you challenge it



I don't. I thought that was obvious!?



			
				MissRibena said:
			
		

> With regard to Fobs point about the young drivers, which is not a view I share incidentally, at least there are statistics that might lend weight to it.



Really????? Wasn't fobs point that he find young male drivers _"drive too closely to the car in front,overtake on junctions and continuous white lines and speed"_? As far as I know there are no statistics on driving too close and overtaking on junctions and continuous white lines. Can you clarify this for me?


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## delgirl (19 Oct 2005)

Isn't all this about stereotyping, prejudice and perception?

For example, I have a male friend who admits he's a chauvinist and will tell anyone who will listen that women drivers are a scourge on the roads, etc. etc....   His wife tells me that when there's an incident with a male driver, cutting him up or whatever, he waves it off, _*but*_ if it's an incident with a female driver - _*he goes absolutely ballistic*_! 

A few months ago he was stopped at a 'T' junction at night with one car in front of him.  He couldn't see who the driver was and when the car hadn't moved off where, in his opinion, there were two gaps in the traffic from the right he turned to his wife and said I'll bet that's a ****** woman and beeped his horn!  

When 'she' didn't pull out at the next gap in the traffic he beeped his horn two or three times in frustration.

The person in the car in front got out and, lo and behold, it was a man!  

Not only was it a man, it was a Guard in an unmarked vehicle who promptly issued him with a ticket for 'illegal use of the horn'!   

Yes, I know it's anecdotal, but it was also very, very sweet!


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## MissRibena (19 Oct 2005)

LOL delgirl!

Gabriel, look over your earlier posts - first you were annoyed at women, taxi drivers and white van men. Later you decided to just restrict your annoyance to women. I never called you chauvinistic or ignorant; but that and your general tone (the sarcasm etc) doesn't exactly mark you out as a feminist or even even-handed. I said the thread is chauvinistic in response to another poster's comments, which I belive it had been up until that point; now it's just gone way off track.

If it was a thread about stupid/unsafe driving or bad driving etiquette, that would be grand. I've plenty of experiences to recount myself but it's not. You are not choosing to rant about that, you prefer to restrict your rant to the women who do it and claiming they form the majority of perpetrators. 

I'm not into the slice and re-hash style of quoting but for the record; i thought you were objecting to Bahmans claims about male drivers etc (on which you are basing the double-standard issue) and you will also see that I said the stats about car accidents MIGHT lend weight to an argument about stupid/bad young male drivers. I don't want to bore readers in one of those never-ending threads with two posters going back and forward nitpicking, so if you want to take it up further with me, then PM me and I'll get back to you if I have time. 

Rebecca


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## Vanilla (19 Oct 2005)

I agree with Rebecca, the thread is just going around in a circle now and has just become another mundane rant against women drivers, backed up with no evidence.

 I have no more interest anymore due to lack of a decent debate.


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## Gabriel (19 Oct 2005)

Vanilla said:
			
		

> I agree with Rebecca, the thread is just going around in a circle now and has just become another mundane rant against women drivers, backed up with no evidence.
> 
> I have no more interest anymore due to lack of a decent debate.



Fair enough...I agree that it's just going around in circles.

However, I also feel that far from being what it was originally intended, it has become a women vs men issue and has shown (quite clearly) the double standards that relate to wider debates on subjects like this and the immediate belief by many posters that if you have a pop at women you're chauvanistic and ignorant.

The rule seems to be simple enough. If you're a man you'd better keep your mouth shut about women drivers...but regardless of whether you're male or female you're welcome to have a pop at male drivers (even if those criticisms don't have data to back them up).

For me it also shows that people don't seem to want to discuss anything without verifiable data to support it....even when the subject matter doesn't lend itself to said statistics. So...in time honoured tradition everyone pats themselves on the back in the knowledge that boy racers force male insurance through the roof..ergo women must be better drivers.

Anyone know the smiley face for rolling your eyes?


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## Sarah W (19 Oct 2005)




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## Vanilla (19 Oct 2005)

> far from being what it was originally intended, it has become a women vs men issue


 
And what did you originally intend? A consensus on what bad drivers women are?



> the double standards that relate to wider debates on subjects like this


 
I'm not sure what you base this on, I think it might be because an earlier poster said something about male drivers and nobody immediately leapt to their defence. Did you consider that as the thread was originally started by you with an insinuation against women drivers, and as most replies referred to that question, that people simply overlooked this post? Whereas you take one post to be the proof of a double standard. I think you are wrong and I think if you look over the posts of the other people who replied to this thread that most were careful not to make a sweeping generalisation about men.



> and the immediate belief by many posters that if you have a pop at women you're chauvanistic and ignorant


 
Once again, Gabriel, I have to point out to you that you are the one accusing others of accusing you of being chauvinistic and sexist and now ignorant. 



> but regardless of whether you're male or female you're welcome to have a pop at male drivers (even if those criticisms don't have data to back them up).


 
Pot/kettle/ wrong in any case. Do I have to spell it out? 



> For me it also shows that people don't seem to want to discuss anything without verifiable data to support it....


 
And theres something wrong with that because....?  I suppose because it stops rants or sweeping generalisations in their tracks. I won't apologise for calling on you to submit evidence to back up your claim that women in general are bad drivers. I would think that that is an entirely rational thing to ask.


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## podgerodge (19 Oct 2005)

How about the discussion is restrained to "women do things that men would not do while driving" ?  Then we could debate the intended issue without getting safety/recklesslness etc into the discussion.  (And anyone that wants to debate "men do things that women don't do while driving" can set up a separate post!)


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## Vanilla (19 Oct 2005)

Yes, because that would be balanced.... ( ah here!)


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## Gabriel (19 Oct 2005)

Hi Vanilla,



			
				Vanilla said:
			
		

> And what did you originally intend? A consensus on what bad drivers women are?



Actually no Vanilla. But it's turned that way. 

I originally intended to have a rant about the near accident I was in. Which is what I did.
The argument turned to women drivers when you asked me the question about the common denominator I was referring to. My mistake I suppose for half opening the can of worms...





			
				Vanilla said:
			
		

> I'm not sure what you base this on, I think it might be because an earlier poster said something about male drivers and nobody immediately leapt to their defence.



No no...not at all. If you'd been paying attention to anything I've been saying all day you would have seen that I was referring to multiple instances of double standards throughout this topic.
Fobs for instance has made numerous references to young male drivers tailgating, amongst other offences. There is no verifiable data to back this up is there? Let me ask you...would you agree with this point of view?



			
				Vanilla said:
			
		

> Once again, Gabriel, I have to point out to you that you are the one accusing others of accusing you of being chauvinistic and sexist and now ignorant.



Well...perhaps. Without knowing it maybe we all have sexist tendencies. Mine are no more overt than anyone elses. We could get into a philosophical debate about that but I don't believe anyone is completely non-sexist in some small way. It's in our genes (in relative quantities).

However, I'm getting off the point. What I'm merely doing is countering the finger pointing. The finger has been duly pointed at me for having a go at women drivers without verifiable evidence to back it up (and the insinuation made that I'm chauvanistic, sexist and/or ignorant). Yet when I point the finger back and add that no one (not once) asked anyone else for evidence of 'young male tailgating' for instance everyone gets all uppity. Just because I started the thread doesn't mean everything has to be directed at me now does it?



To recap what I originally said about women drivers...



			
				Gabriel said:
			
		

> At the risk of being berated by everyone on this board...the common denominator in over 10 years of driving is women.
> 
> Sorry if that offends anyone. That's been my experience. Actually, I tell a lie. Women, taxi drivers and the odd white van driver. They're the only drivers I have come across who make unbelievably wreckless or plain bad decisions whilst driving and never apologise for it.





> I realise that what most people like to hear is that there are bad 'drivers' out there (both male and female)...but I'm sorry, my overriding experience is that most of them are female. The errors they make are astounding and they rarely if ever apologise for them or even seem to realise what they've done.



I went on to qualify that this was my experience over ten years and that the majority of these poor driving skills were to be seen in day to day traffic. Rush hour conditions if you will.

To start with you started quoting statistical data on car crashes/deaths to me....completely missing the point.
Every point made is made relative to the context of the conversation. Perhaps I should have spelt that out more plainly. By using the term 'bad drivers' I was not referring to speeding and or car crashes. Statistically men cause more serious car accidents. That's a given.

However, that's not what I was referring to...now was it?
Let's take one point then shall we and be really, really anal about it. Spatial awareness.

Here's an article that recounts certain research proving that men are better at spatial tasks than women.
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2405/is_n1_v125/ai_20602762


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## podgerodge (19 Oct 2005)

Vanilla said:
			
		

> Yes, because that would be balanced.... ( ah here!)



Yes, it WOULD be balanced - everybody would be addressing one subject - and I would have no problem contributing to a "male driver" thread and agreeing that for the most part, men are more reckless and more prone to taking risks than women.


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## MOB (19 Oct 2005)

I am quite surprised that this debate has generated so much heat and so little light.  

People seem to be having difficulty reconciling two propositions:  on the one hand, many believe women to be worse than men in driving ability;  On the other hand, people seem to accept that men are somehow more dangerous on the road, this being "proved" by the fact that  men have more accidents. 

There are more men on the road; their average journey is longer.  Accidents per mile travelled needs to be included in any meaningful analysis.   (Of course, it is not the only relevant parameter, and I don't know how it should be weighted in an analysis, but it is one which helps explain the apparent contradiction between perceived standards and crash statistics)

From UK Department of Transport website:

"It is reported that women make fewer and shorter trips as a car driver compared to their male counterparts (DETR, 1998). This is reflected in the ratio of mileage driven per annum between the genders given in Table 3. Comparing the ratio of annual mileage with that for collision involvement as a driver, female drivers account for a quarter of total mileage but a third of all injury accidents. This leads to the conclusion that women are more likely to be the driver in an injury crash per mile driven. Only in the youngest age group (17-20 years) are men more likely to be involved in a collision than their female counterpart. It should be noted that this exposure data does not apportion blame for the occurrence of a collision."


Here is the link:  

[broken link removed] 

I might as well add my own anecdotal views:  the differences (whatever they may be) between male and female drivers do not seem that huge to me.  It is the young drivers who scare me.  And if I am allowed some small bias, it is the young males in particular - the aggression and risk taking manifest in far too many of them has not lost its ability to shock me.


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## Purple (20 Oct 2005)

I don't see the boy racers after the pubs close as I live in Dublin and don't get out much (3 small kids). But I do drive a lot during the day in a business capacity. I do about 400 miles a week. When I am on the road it is 30-60 year old men in 4x4's that I watch out for as in my experience they can drive at very high speeds (100 MPH+) on motorways and duel carriageways. Everyone’s experiences differ, I will probably not be aware of others who have the same bad habits that I have and this may be the case with others. 
I do find that I get annoyed by other drivers and it is usually women who do the annoying but that probably has more to do with my impatience (which equates to bad driving) than their lack of spatial awareness or whatever other evolutionary hindrance they have!!


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## pricilla (20 Oct 2005)

Hi, I'm joining in a bit late here but I agree with the original point, that it can be infuriating when somebody does something dangerous on the road and just drives off.
A friend of mine was out running (in Shannon) along the inside lane off the hard shoulder, and a girl was driving towards him in a Punto. He said to himself "she must see me" it was broad daylight, and he was jogging along. The stupid girl shouldn't have been driving in the hard shoulder in the first place! So, anywho, she starts getting closer and closer and then he started getting worried that she didn't see him, so made a few arm movements. Nope, she drove straight for him, he actually said her eyes looked glazed over, and he had to jump out of her way, she only just missed him!
To cut a long story short, his foot got jammed in the embankment and bust up his leg severly and was left at the side of the road waving for help in agony for over an hour before somebody stopped.
His dreams of running the marathon were ruined, he spent months in plaster and his leg will never be the same. And she drove off unaware.


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## fobs (21 Oct 2005)

I agree with you Priscilla that this type of driving is terrible and people use the hard shoulder not for the purpose it was intended .But it wasn't the gender of the driver that was important it was the drivers behaviour that was and it was appalling.


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## podgerodge (25 Oct 2005)

fobs said:
			
		

> it wasn't the gender of the driver that was important it was the drivers behaviour that was and it was appalling.



Absolutely.  But had the gender of the driver been different in this case, the person may have been more aware of what was actually going on hence Pricillas comment:



			
				Pricilla said:
			
		

> And she drove off unaware..


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