# Dole and Childrens allowance - residents only I thought ?



## billko (16 Feb 2009)

Can someone clear this up for me ! Why are we allowing people from other EU states who once worked here to pop over and back ( via budget airlines ) to sign on and claim the dole and/or childrens allowance when they don't actually live here anymore ? I'm pretty sure we could save ourselves a few million and have more accurate unemployment figures also !


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## NHG (16 Feb 2009)

They are not even bothering to fly in anymore - they are paying their friends a few € to sign for them!

No wonder we're the laughing stock!


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## VOR (16 Feb 2009)

Obviuosly any one from the EU is perfectly entitled to claim here and that's a good thing. 
However, I can see your point. Any sort of fraud of the system should be reported so those who actually need the money get it.


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## gillarosa (16 Feb 2009)

We are not doing it (intentionaly) If the Dept Social & Family Affairs are not made aware of the situation or don't unearth it during regular checks there is nothing they can do about it.
If you know of any legitimate cases of Welfare Fraud by anyone regardless of their Citizenship or abode report it to the relevant authorities. It would take about the same amount of effort as posting to a forum.


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## billko (16 Feb 2009)

gillarosa said:


> We are not doing it (intentionaly) If the Dept Social & Family Affairs are not made aware of the situation or don't unearth it during regular checks there is nothing they can do about it.
> If you know of any legitimate cases of Welfare Fraud by anyone regardless of their Citizenship or abode report it to the relevant authorities. It would take about the same amount of effort as posting to a forum.


 
From what I have heard it is widespread, The easiest way to get around this is to revert back to signing on weekly in the case of the dole and monthly in the case of the childrens allowance. I know it would overload the system but surely we can work out some efficient way of doing it. I am pretty sure if the passport info at the airports was cross referenced with the Social & Family Affairs database - the true extent of this abuse would become obvious very quickly.


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## murphaph (16 Feb 2009)

billko said:


> From what I have heard it is widespread, The easiest way to get around this is to revert back to signing on weekly in the case of the dole and monthly in the case of the childrens allowance. I know it would overload the system but surely we can work out some efficient way of doing it. I am pretty sure if the passport info at the airports was cross referenced with the Social & Family Affairs database - the true extent of this abuse would become obvious very quickly.


I think one of the SW staff that post here said it went back to weekly collections at the post office last year instead of sirect bank transfer to try to combat this sort of fraud. I think it's worthy of investigation but I don't think this sort of fraud is as widespread as people might think. I believe that people living here commit the lion's share of social welfare fraud, be they irish or foreign born.


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## LennyBriscoe (16 Feb 2009)

billko said:


> From what I have heard it is widespread, The easiest way to get around this is to revert back to signing on weekly in the case of the dole and monthly in the case of the childrens allowance.


 
You must sign on weekly for your dole since last July.


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## billko (16 Feb 2009)

LennyBriscoe said:


> You must sign on weekly for your dole since last July.


 
I stand corrected ! 

Do you know if it has changed for the childrens allowance ? I think that was once every three months and paid directly into your account ?


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## LennyBriscoe (16 Feb 2009)

No idea about the childrens allowance.


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## valery (16 Feb 2009)

One method of curtailing abuse would be to, issued social welfare cards with photos.


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## woodbine (16 Feb 2009)

LennyBriscoe said:


> You must sign on weekly for your dole since last July.


 
i know someone on Jobseeker Benefit who signs on once a month. Maybe it's different in different areas.


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## billko (16 Feb 2009)

valery said:


> One method of curtailing abuse would be to, issued social welfare cards with photos.


 
Totally agree - maybe even biometric to combat those who have multiple id's and claim in different towns


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## terrontress (16 Feb 2009)

I have spent 8 years paying PRSI in Ireland, became unemployed and moved to London. I attempted to claim unemployment benefit from the UK government while waiting for a new job and got £25 per week as I am married and had made no UK contributions.

I explained that I had made contributions in ROI but that made no difference. I phoned the DSW who told me I could not claim from overseas.

I had half a mind to fly back and make a claim myself. I must stress that I didn't though but the original question:



> Why are we allowing people from other EU states who once worked here to pop over and back ( via budget airlines ) to sign on and claim the dole and/or childrens allowance when they don't actually live here anymore ?


 
If someone has paid into the Irish system, they move abroad and it goes against them in the country that they have not paid into, I would have sympathy for them flying back to claim in Ireland.


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## billko (16 Feb 2009)

woodbine said:


> i know someone on Jobseeker Benefit who signs on once a month. Maybe it's different in different areas.


 
Not sure but that would tie in with the story I was told ( taxi driver that picked up a few guys from the airport - quick pitstop to sign on and then back to the airport again. He reckoned it was fairly common ! ??


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## billko (16 Feb 2009)

If someone has paid into the Irish system said:
			
		

> Maybe we are just too generous here ! ? Maybe we should be partly using a voucher system that is useless abroad ? similiar to one4all but can be used for ESB / Gas / Food stores etc etc


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## Mpsox (16 Feb 2009)

you don't need to sign on for Childrens allowance, it can be paid straight into your bank account

If foreign workers have paid their tax and PRSI in this country, why shouldn't they be able to sign on, don't recall we as a nation refusing to tax them because they were from another country

No arguement that there is probably some abuse of the system but there seems to be an awful lot of hearsay/yer man told me type of comments on this post. Anyone got some actual facts??


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## Eblanoid (16 Feb 2009)

billko said:


> Not sure but that would tie in with the story I was told ( taxi driver that picked up a few guys from the airport - quick pitstop to sign on and then back to the airport again. He reckoned it was fairly common ! ??



It's amazing how "taxi drivers" always know so much about the income, taxation and social welfare affairs of foreigners.  They have irrefutable evidence to back up their assertions, no doubt.


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## billko (16 Feb 2009)

If foreign workers have paid their tax and PRSI in this country, why shouldn't they be able to sign on, don't recall we as a nation refusing to tax them because they were from another country


No arguement that there is probably some abuse of the system but there seems to be an awful lot of hearsay/yer man told me type of comments on this post. Anyone got some actual facts??[/quote]

No problem with anyone signing on as long as they still live in this country ! 

If it was just once I had heard it .. I wouldn't have posted here .. how exactly do you suppose I get facts ? Do I go and question someone that flys in and out the same day ?? - that's not my job !


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## gillarosa (16 Feb 2009)

billko said:


> Not sure but that would tie in with the story I was told ( taxi driver that picked up a few guys from the airport - quick pitstop to sign on and then back to the airport again. He reckoned it was fairly common ! ??


 
That's funny, I was thinking earlier the post read like a conversation you may hear while in the back of a Taxi. They who are re-knowned for their tax compliance and recently it seems xenophobia.


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## Joody1 (16 Feb 2009)

There should be physical checks on the addresses that the letters are sent to....in order to ascertain whether they are actually still living there, otherwise, it is useless sending out letter for signature.


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## irishlinks (16 Feb 2009)

All new claimants since last July have to collect Jobseekers Benefits/Allowance from a post Office each week. If they don't collect - their payments are suspended and they are suppposed to report to Social Welafre to explain. Signing on is monthly.
Claims before July 2008 can still be getting paid into bank accounts - but most still have to sign on monthly.
BUT - people who live more than 10 miles from the Social Welfare office (could be common in rural areas) - only have to sign on every *3 months.
*So there is  potential for some fraud for claims started before last July - they would only need to come back 4 times a year to sign on.


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## murphaph (16 Feb 2009)

Of course it is possible to transfer irish benefit payments to another EU country for up to 13 weeks. It is eminently sensible that there is a time limit on this as otherwise there would be nothing to stop people working for a while in a high cost country then going unemployed to claim benefits indefinitely in a low cost one, benefits which could easily be better than wages in some countries.


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## gipimann (17 Feb 2009)

Persons working here who have family living in another EU country are entitled to claim Child Benefit under EU legislation.   Fraud arises if the person working here ceases work, leaves the country and fails to notify the Department.


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## Welfarite (27 Feb 2009)

LennyBriscoe said:


> You must sign on weekly for your dole since last July.


 
You must collect weekly at PO since last July, still sign monthly.



billko said:


> I stand corrected !
> 
> Do you know if it has changed for the childrens allowance ? I think that was once every three months and paid directly into your account ?


The only review on CB is by mailshot, if no reply CB is stopped. There was a long thread on this practice recently, many AAM posters were peeved at being 'singled out' for CB review!

In general, like much anecdotal evidence, the incidence of the type of fraud being discussed here is exaggerated somewhat. Once the scam was uncovered (in South East, I think), the dept. closed the option of paying into bank accounts and targeted certain types of claimants for review on the basis of risk, in all SW schemes.


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## Welfarite (27 Feb 2009)

Joody1 said:


> There should be physical checks on the addresses that the letters are sent to....in order to ascertain whether they are actually still living there, otherwise, it is useless sending out letter for signature.


 

Why? The signature can be X-referenced against the original claim form signature. How much would it cost the tax-payer to call to 100,000 addresses?


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## Welfarite (27 Feb 2009)

NHG said:


> They are not even bothering to fly in anymore - they are paying their friends a few € to sign for them!
> 
> No wonder we're the laughing stock!


 

If you have evidence of this, report it to SW.


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## Welfarite (27 Feb 2009)

billko said:


> Not sure but that would tie in with the story I was told ( taxi driver that picked up a few guys from the airport - quick pitstop to sign on and then back to the airport again. He reckoned it was fairly common ! ??


 

More anecdotal stuff! I'd love to know which office can deal with 'signing on' like a 'quick pitstop' ....most I know have two hour queues on signing days!


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## sunrock (28 Feb 2009)

I remember when the east european workers came here first,after Mary Harney went over to poland to beg them to come to work in Ireland as the Irish workers did not like hard work.They all declared ad nauseum that they were here to work and not to go on welfare.10  or 15 years of housing were built in 5 years.The result is we will now have 5 years ,of no house building and irish and east european builders will be on the dole,as well as all the other workers effected by the lack of work due to the recession.Of courser I don`t blame the foreign workers for signing on and getting their 200+ euros every week, when the dell workers in poland are only getting 3 euros per hour.However I think we are being too soft with them.Irish workers would not find it so easy to get dole in france or germany for example,without going through a lot of obstacles.Whats wrong with making these able bodied and willing workers do a lot of community and other suitable work as a condition of their dole.And not 1 or 2 percentage but over 80% at any one time.


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## Complainer (28 Feb 2009)

billko said:


> Not sure but that would tie in with the story I was told ( taxi driver that picked up a few guys from the airport - quick pitstop to sign on and then back to the airport again. He reckoned it was fairly common ! ??


Good to see that it is a reliable source with no prior reputation for racist comments that you are relying on for your information.


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## Bronte (2 Mar 2009)

sunrock said:


> .Whats wrong with making these able bodied and willing workers do a lot of community and other suitable work as a condition of their dole.


 Are you saying that only 'eastern europeans' on the dole should have to do this work?


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## sunrock (2 Mar 2009)

No I am not.
However as most non nationals are young and eager to work ,I don`t see how they could object to community work etc, doing projects to build up the community.After all,it is a condition of their dole that they should be able  and willing to work etc


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## Howitzer (2 Mar 2009)

sunrock said:


> No I am not.
> However as most non nationals are young and eager to work ,I don`t see how they could object to community work etc, doing projects to build up the community.After all,it is a condition of their dole that they should be able and willing to work etc


Ideally if we could then house them in some sort of camp that concentrated the talent into one area, reduced the cost they impose upon the state and freed up the space they currently occupy in nice Irish estates. They could then be readily used for whatever state projects were in need of manual labour.

I don't see how anyone could object to that.


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## gillarosa (2 Mar 2009)

Howitzer said:


> Ideally if we could then house them in some sort of camp that concentrated the talent into one area, reduced the cost they impose upon the state and freed up the space they currently occupy in nice Irish estates. They could then be readily used for whatever state projects were in need of manual labour.
> 
> I don't see how anyone could object to that.


 
The Irish Landlords whom they are currently paying rent to!!


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## Vanilla (2 Mar 2009)

Howitzer said:


> Ideally if we could then house them in some sort of camp that concentrated the talent into one area, reduced the cost they impose upon the state and freed up the space they currently occupy in nice Irish estates. They could then be readily used for whatever state projects were in need of manual labour.
> 
> I don't see how anyone could object to that.


 
Excellent post!


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## diarmuidc (3 Mar 2009)

sunrock said:


> Irish workers would not find it so easy to get dole in france or germany for example,without going through a lot of obstacles


I take it you just pulled that one from thin air. I know for a fact that it's as easy for Irish people working in France to sign on as it is for the French. You don't even have to show up in the offices for the first 3 months of your dole, it can be done over the internet!


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## Bronte (3 Mar 2009)

sunrock said:


> No I am not.
> However as most non nationals are young and eager to work ,I don`t see how they could object to community work etc, doing projects to build up the community.After all,it is a condition of their dole that they should be able and willing to work etc


  Do you think that young Irish people are not eager to work?  What should be done with them?


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## Samantha (3 Mar 2009)

Regarding children allowance, every 6 months I received from the Department of social affair a letter asking me for name/address and phone number of my children school/creche/doctor. I am guessing they contact them to double check that they are still in Ireland since I am not Irish. I think they should sent it as well to everyone in Ireland not only the non irish national (none of my Irish colleagues have ever received this letter)


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## sunrock (3 Mar 2009)

Bronte said:


> Do you think that young Irish people are not eager to work? What should be done with them?


 
My point is about the age profile of non nationals


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## sunrock (3 Mar 2009)

diarmuidc said:


> I take it you just pulled that one from thin air. I know for a fact that it's as easy for Irish people working in France to sign on as it is for the French. You don't even have to show up in the offices for the first 3 months of your dole, it can be done over the internet!


 Admittedly my experience is in germany,and I know from personal experience how difficult they make it for irish people even getting resident permits,They pull a whole lot of tricks even arguing that  ireland is not in the european union etc.Of course if one perseveres one can get  ones entitlements.I have no doubt they treat well paid professionals differently.
Of course one has to get a job in these countries first and i imagine that would be very difficult as well especially in France.How long would a person  have to be working in France before being eligble for dole and how much is their dole per week.Don`t forget Germany and France did not allow the east europeans to work in their countries until  was it last year.


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## gillarosa (3 Mar 2009)

Samantha said:


> Regarding children allowance, every 6 months I received from the Department of social affair a letter asking me for name/address and phone number of my children school/creche/doctor. I am guessing they contact them to double check that they are still in Ireland since I am not Irish. I think they should sent it as well to everyone in Ireland not only the non irish national (none of my Irish colleagues have ever received this letter)


 
Samantha, there was a long thread here about this a number of months ago. I understand some foreign born recipients of CA felt and feel a little discriminated against in regard to the frequency of letters. But as there is greater mobility amongst Migrants especially during periods of economic change its not unreasonable for the Department to check the residency status of foreigh born recipients on a regular basis. After all it benefits all of us and our Children here in Ireland regardless of where we originated. But I agree that regular checks should be run on all and I think mailshoots for all recipients is in the overall plan against Welfare fraud in general.


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## diarmuidc (3 Mar 2009)

sunrock said:


> Admittedly my experience is in germany,and I know from personal experience how difficult they make it for irish people even getting resident permits,They pull a whole lot of tricks even arguing that  ireland is not in the european union etc..


What year is your experience from? 1935?


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## sunrock (3 Mar 2009)

1995 in fact.
Why don`t you engage with the points i raised?


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## Bronte (4 Mar 2009)

sunrock said:


> My point is about the age profile of non nationals


 You didn't reply to what should be done with young unemployed Irish people and last time I looked there were plenty young Irish people, lots more than most other European countries?


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## Howitzer (4 Mar 2009)

Bronte said:


> You didn't reply to what should be done with young unemployed Irish people and last time I looked there were plenty young Irish people, lots more than most other European countries?


Well we'll need security for these camps I mentioned earlier. In fact these camps could open up a whole range of opportunities for young verile Irish men and women eager to do their bit for the Fatherland.


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## sunrock (4 Mar 2009)

Bronte said:


> You didn't reply to what should be done with young unemployed Irish people and last time I looked there were plenty young Irish people, lots more than most other European countries?


 
I wouldn`t exclude young irish people from various work schemes,but of course the young irish did not travel across a continent to work/draw dole in another country.As such,many of the young unemployed irish wouldn`t necessarily have the motivation of migrant workers and account has to be tahen of this.Don`t forget France and Germany did not allow east europeans to work in their country until very recently,precisely to protect their own work force.There is a lot of work that could be done to improve housing estates and clean up derelict areas etc etc


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## Bronte (5 Mar 2009)

sunrock said:


> I wouldn`t exclude young irish people from various work schemes,but of course the young irish did not travel across a continent to work/draw dole in another country.As such,many of the young unemployed irish wouldn`t necessarily have the motivation of migrant workers and account has to be tahen of this.Don`t forget France and Germany did not allow east europeans to work in their country until very recently,precisely to protect their own work force.There is a lot of work that could be done to improve housing estates and clean up derelict areas etc etc


 
I wouldn't qualify as 'young' but I was young once and I went to one of these European countries in search of work, do you think if I lost my job that I should be rounded up to lay roads, clean up streets etc.  Would you be upset if this happened to me and the many other Irish imigrants abroad?  What do you mean that young umemployed Irish don't have the motivation of migrant workers?


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## DublinTexas (5 Mar 2009)

Why would someone fly in weekly or get someone else to collect for him you very easy can export your unemployment benefits over a period of three months?

Simple steps [broken link removed].

Sure that only covers you for three month but it's a start.


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## sunrock (5 Mar 2009)

Bronte said:


> I wouldn't qualify as 'young' but I was young once and I went to one of these European countries in search of work, do you think if I lost my job that I should be rounded up to lay roads, clean up streets etc. Would you be upset if this happened to me and the many other Irish imigrants abroad? What do you mean that young umemployed Irish don't have the motivation of migrant workers?


 
No one is talking about rounding anyone up.A lot of irish unemployed have to go on various work schemes organised by fas etc.I do think that a lot of our migrants now on the dole here should be quite happy to do 2 or 3 days work for their dole money,which incidentally is much higher than the average industrial wage in poland for example.Only the more motivated,energetic east europeans emigrated..I am sure a lot of the less motivated ones decided to stay at home.
For thr life of me I cannot understand why unemployed teachers couldn`t teach for 2 days a week for their dole money for example.....this would address the teacher pupil ratio that the teachers unions are so concerned about and would cost the exchequer nothing.


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## DublinTexas (5 Mar 2009)

sunrock said:


> No one is talking about rounding anyone up.A lot of irish unemployed have to go on various work schemes organised by fas etc.I do think that a lot of our migrants now on the dole here should be quite happy to do 2 or 3 days work for their dole money,which incidentally is much higher than the average industrial wage in poland for example.Only the more motivated,energetic east europeans emigrated..I am sure a lot of the less motivated ones decided to stay at home.
> For thr life of me I cannot understand why unemployed teachers couldn`t teach for 2 days a week for their dole money for example.....this would address the teacher pupil ratio that the teachers unions are so concerned about and would cost the exchequer nothing.


 
There are some countries which went down that road, if you are receiving social welfare payments you are used for the delivery of public services, i.e. cleaning the streets/parks (and we really could get that done), working in old peoples homes and other stuff.


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## sunrock (5 Mar 2009)

jaybird said:


> You can't understand why a trained professional may not want to do specialised and difficult work for dole money alongside people doing the same work but getting actual proper pay and benefits for it? Seriously?  Sure then you could sack all the teachers and make them all work for dole! And perhaps doctors and nurses too! Genius....


 
I am suggesting that these  unemployed teachers,most of whom would be recent graduates work maybe 2 days a week in a school for their dole money,thus helping the teacher pupil ratio.Thats 100 euros+ a day and  getting very good experience too.Don`t sub teachers work alongside permanent teachers as it is without getting the same benefits.
The resistance is coming from unions who want to restrict the numbers working or even getting experience in various professions , to maintain the high salaries and benefits of their members still  in a job.
And yes I`d put unemployed nurses and doctors working 2days a week in our overstretched health services.
The thing is unemployed people would like to work in their chosen speciality for experience,morale and well being etc in this recession.


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