# Is Widow in receipt of "Widows & Childrens" Pension entitled to State Widows Pension?



## Scanner (14 Feb 2006)

Hi,

Can I ask for some advice please.

Both my parents worked throught their life and paid all PAYE/PRSI contributions, my father also paid Widow's & Orphans during his working career.

My Mother stopped working a number of years ago and had enough contributions to claim an old age pension when she reached the required age.

When my Father retired at 65 they were both in receipt of their pensions. 

Unfortunatly my Father died last year and a couple of weeks later my Mother was told that as she was in receipt of her own pension she was not entitled to claim a Widows pension.

We have contacted our local politician who has said that there is nothing he can do and the reason he gave was that you cannot receive two state payments.

Can anyone advise me if this is actually correct.

It seems extremley unfair that my Father paid all these contributions to Widows & Orphans for nothing and my Mother now has to survive on only her own pension.

Thanks
Askaboutcash


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## celsius (14 Feb 2006)

*Re: Unfair & Wrong: Widow in reciept of Spouses Pension not entitled to Widows Pension*

FWIW - This was a major topic of discussion on the Joe Duffy show about a year ago. Can't remember exactly what the out come was ,but I think their was some commitment given by the govenment to resolve this ???


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## ClubMan (14 Feb 2006)

*Re: Unfair & Wrong: Widow in reciept of Spouses Pension not entitled to Widows Pension*

What sort of Widow's Pension are you referring to? _Contributory _(non means tested and based on _PRSI _contributions) or _Non-Contributory _(means tested)?


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## ajapale (14 Feb 2006)

*Re: Unfair & Wrong: Widow in reciept of Spouses Pension not entitled to Widows Pensio*

I think you cant claim the Contributory Old Age Pension AND the Contributory Widows Pension as well.

Celcius is correct this issue was discussed on the Joe Duffy Show last year. I dont know what the outcome of the discussions were.


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## ClubMan (14 Feb 2006)

*Re: Unfair & Wrong: Widow in reciept of Spouses Pension not entitled to Widows Pension*

Yep - see here:


> You *cannot* get an Old Age Contributory or Retirement Pension with a Widow's or Widower's Contributory Pension.


Presumably if the old age contributory pension provided by the widow's own _PRSI _contributions in the original context described above would be less than the widow's contributory pension provided for by her late husband's _PRSI _contributions then she should be able to avail of the higher payment by contacting _Welfare_?


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## ajapale (14 Feb 2006)

*Re: Unfair & Wrong: Widow in reciept of Spouses Pension not entitled to Widows Pensio*

and 


*Widow's/Widower's Contributory Pension*
*Other Earnings*

 Since this is a contributory pension, you may earn any amount of money from any other source and still remain entitled to this pension. It is taxable. If it is your only source of income, you are unlikely to have to pay tax.

 You cannot get a Widow's/Widower's Contributory Pension at the same time as an  or a . If you are entitled to two payments, you may choose whichever is the most advantageous. 

However, you can get a Widow's/Widower's Contributory Pension and half the personal rate of , , , ,  or  if you also qualify for one of these payments.

 If you are getting an Invalidity Pension and satisfy the conditions for a Widow's/Widower's Contributory Pension you can get half the personal rate of Disability Benefit, for a limited time, instead of  and claim a Widow's/Widower's Contributory Pension.

*Duration*
 The pension remains payable while you remain widowed. If you remarry or cohabit, it is no longer payable.
 You may get child dependant allowances with your pension - these remain payable while the child is aged under 18 and they may then be continued until age 22 if the child is in full-time education.
*Other Payments for Widowed People*

 Under the Occupational Injuries Scheme, a Widow's/Widower's Pension may be payable if the death was due to an occupational injury or disease.

 People who are receiving a Widow's or Widower's Pension are eligible for services like the  if they meet the usual conditions. Those who are aged 60 or over when the spouse receiving free services dies retain the services even though they do not meet the usual age requirement.

*Rates*
    The maximum rates of payment from the first week in January 2006 are 
    Age Payment   Under 66 171.30 euro weekly
    Age Payment   66-79 193.30 euro weekly
    Age Payment   80+  203.30 euro weekly
Child dependant Allowance (per child)  21.60 euro each
aj


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## Scanner (14 Feb 2006)

*Re: Unfair & Wrong: Widow in reciept of Spouses Pension not entitled to Widows Pension*

Hi Folks,

Thanks for the replies, they are very helpfull.  I am currently working my way through Ajapale's reply and will post a response soon.

Hi Clubman,
My mother paid into a Contributory Pension herself, the Widows pension I am referring to is the contributions my Father made to Widow's & Orphans.  This is the reason we are so annoyed, basically my parents had no say in the matter as all deductions are made at source, however when you then go to receive the benifit you are told you cant have it.

This to us is unacceptable, if payments are made into a fund, the least you should expect is to receive payments out of the fund when you are eligable.

Thanks for all the replies.  We will work our way through them an I shall post again as soon as possible.

Kind Rgds
Askaboutcash.


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## ClubMan (14 Feb 2006)

*Re: Unfair & Wrong: Widow in reciept of Spouses Pension not entitled to Widows Pension*

It may be annoying but note that _PRSI _is a *social *insurance fund - not an individual insurance fund - that provides benefits to most or all citizens (both those who made _PRSI _contributions and those who, for whatever reason, did not). Not much consolation to you in this context but perhaps a helpful clarification?


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## Observer (20 Feb 2006)

*Re: Unfair & Wrong: Widow in reciept of Spouses Pension not entitled to Widows Pension*

Scanner, 

Something seems wrong here.  If your Father paid "widows and orphans" then the Widow's Pension comes from the employer, *not the State.*  The fact that your Mother qualifies for a (contributory) OAP in her own right is irrelevant. Contact your Father's former employer to sort things out.


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## ajapale (21 Feb 2006)

*Re: Unfair & Wrong: Widow in reciept of Spouses Pension not entitled to Widows Pensio*

Hi Observer,

This puzzled me as well. But I assumed that the widow was in reciept of the Widows & Childrens pension. In which case this is a Welfare question and not a pensions question at all.

aj


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## ajapale (21 Feb 2006)

*Re: Unfair & Wrong: Widow in reciept of Spouses Pension not entitled to Widows Pensio*

Lors,

Your off topic post concerning SSIA's has been moved .

If we agree that this thread is essentially a Social Welfare issue I will move it to the Jobs, Employment and Welfare forum.

aj


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## Scanner (25 Feb 2006)

*Re: Unfair & Wrong: Widow in reciept of Spouses Pension not entitled to Widows Pension*

Folks,

Thanks again for the replies.

Hi Clubman,
When you say Social fund what do you mean ?
My understanding of making Paye/Prsi payments when you work entitles you to a state pension when you reach the required age.
Im a bit confused now, why would this being a social fund make any difference, your either entitled to it if you have made the required payments or your entitled under some other rule or not at all.
Can you comment further. Thanks.

Hi Observer/Ajapale
Now I am a little more confused. You mention Widow's and Orphans & Widows and Childrens, is there a difference ?
Ajapale, you said.....
"This puzzled me as well. But I assumed that the widow was in reciept of the Widows & Childrens pension. In which case this is a Welfare question and not a pensions question at all."

Perhaps the title of the topic is misleading. The Widow is not in receipt of Spouses Pension she is in receipt of her own Pension which she paid Paye/Prsi for. It's the fact that she is not entitled to receive the Widows and Orphans payments as well that is confusing us. 

My understanding is that my Father paid into a Widow's and Orphans fund all his working career. He also paid into a seperate pension fund in work that he claimed his Pension on when he retired as well as the state pension as he paid Paye/Prsi all his working career.
I thought the Widows and Orphans payments made were state payments which would give my Mother a Widows Pension should he die.
Is this not the case?

Perhaps this is a Welfare question, but then again I am getting a bit confused.


I appreciate your replies.

Scanner (Used to be Askaboutcash)


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## Marianne S (25 Feb 2006)

*Re: Unfair & Wrong: Widow in reciept of Spouses Pension not entitled to Widows Pension*

I work for the HSE and pay two pensions, one is listed simply as _pension_ on my payslip the second _spouses and children pension_. This has nothing to do with the state pension.


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## ajapale (25 Feb 2006)

*Re: Unfair & Wrong: Widow in reciept of Spouses Pension not entitled to Widows Pensio*

Hi Scanner,

Im very interested in your question and would like to understand it fully. So bear with me while I try to work it out. If the title is misleading Ill change it.

You asked:


> You mention Widow's and Orphans & Widows and Childrens, is there a difference ?



Yes there is a difference.

The *Widow's/Widower's Contributory Pension (some times know as the Survivors Pension) *is a state benefit.

And as Observer pointed out 'Widows and Orphans Pensions' are part of an occupational pension scheme operated by your father' employer. If your father paid into such a scheme during his working career then his widow (and any children under the age of 18) should, under the rules of the scheme be entitled a pension. Is your mother is reciept of such an pension? 

aj


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## Scanner (27 Feb 2006)

*Re: Unfair & Wrong: Widow in reciept of Spouses Pension not entitled to Widows Pension*

Hi Ajapale,

As I am getting the info and passing it on, perhaps I am missing something or making it confusing so I will answer you as you ask the questions.
Thanks.

The answer to your last question is Yes.  My mother is in receipt of half what my Dad got as his pension which comes from his employer.

Thanks
Scanner.


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## ajapale (28 Feb 2006)

*Re: Is Widow in receipt of "Widows & Childrens" Pension entitled to State Widows Pens*

Thanks Scanner, I think I understand the question now.

The occupational "Widows and Childrens" Pension is stand alone and has absolutely no effect on the state pensions what so ever.

Your mother is entitled to the contributory old age pension in her own right.

On the death of your father she became eligible for the contributory Widows Pension. Unfortunately under the rules of the state pension schemes she is not entitled to both.



> You cannot get a Widow's/Widower's Contributory Pension at the same time as an . If you are entitled to two payments, you may choose whichever is the most advantageous.



aj


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## Scanner (9 Mar 2006)

Hi Ajapale,  Thanks for your help with this.

Regards
Scanner


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