# French Civil Servant suspended for telling truth.



## Purple (6 Jul 2010)

When will the Irish edition be published?


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## DrMoriarty (6 Jul 2010)

In the lean, mean, ruthlessly efficient private sector? 

[broken link removed]


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## z104 (6 Jul 2010)

Purple said:


> When will the Irish edition be published?


 

Excellent. I've heard similiar stories from friends who work in the the CSO.


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## Deiseblue (6 Jul 2010)

Happens everywhere , I worked in numerous jobs including a flour mills , a brewery , a mushroom farm , a furniture factory and a Bank and the level of dossing in each job was world class.


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## UptheDeise (6 Jul 2010)

Deiseblue said:


> Happens everywhere , I worked in numerous jobs including a flour mills , a brewery , a mushroom farm , a furniture factory and a Bank and the level of dossing in each job was world class.


 
Chances are though when you're caught dossing like that you're sacked. Not so with the PS.


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## Deiseblue (6 Jul 2010)

I never actually remember anyone being caught , people really had it down to an art.


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## thedaras (6 Jul 2010)

I would think that there are dossers in every job,but the magnitude of this is typical...

I doubt very much that anyone in the private sector would be allowed to get away with this ,for that amount of time..

I was at a car tax office some weeks ago ,there were six people at the counters..I observed them while I was waiting and the way two of them could do something so slowly was worth an Oscar!

It was actually funny to see them take a form,very slowly,look for a pen very slowly, put on their glasses slowly,press a button on a computer slowly,take off the glasses again,slowly,take the credit card very slowly,it was really like looking at someone in slow motion.
The other one had a face like thunder,one guy went up to her and said,hi there,how are ya,and she didnt even have the manners to answer him!
In fairness she wasnt just being rude to him,she was like that with everyone !
On the other hand there was a girl at one of the counters who smiled at all the customers,worked at a fair speed and was just doing her job,I hoped that I would get her,and luckily I did!!
My point is ,this has to be very disheartening for the girl who worked efficiently and the others who were pleasent.
It has to effect how she feels when she puts in the effort every day to be faced with those who couldnt be bothered,and she would also know there is nothing she can do about it,and there is nothing the management can do about it.
This is the whole problem with the PS.There are some who are ruining what could otherwise be a nice pleasent enviornment ..they are like a disease that spreads..and those who do want to work ,who do want to be pleasent ,often leave ,because they are disheartened and disillusioned.
That leaves a large majority of those who dont care,and that is a pity.
When I worked in the PS I was told that I did not have to take any so called abuse from the public,this meant that if someone so much as questioned me,I was told,(and have seen it done), you tell them,you do not have to take this "abuse" and hang up or walk away from them.
When I worked in the private sector,I was told the customer is always right,if a customer questioned my answer,I was to clarify and satisfy..
There is no doubt that there is huge wastage ,a lot of dossing and a lot of JObs worth in the PS.I know from personal experience ,from family and from friends who work there who are appalled at some of their co-workers behaviour.
This will NEVER be tackled...so those who do the dossing etc can continue to sit back and relax.
when will the Irish version be published you may ask? Watch this space..
As soon as I can get Protective Custody...


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## Deiseblue (6 Jul 2010)

I must say I've  had exactly the same experience with laissez faire attitudes in shops, restaurants , hotels and banks (any    Public facing area really ) up and down the country , friends tell me the same.

Really goes to show that no matter what sector people work in these problems are universal.


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## UFC (7 Jul 2010)

The problem isn't that some people are lazy and bad at their job -- the problem is they get away with it! Sometimes I wish our employment laws weren't so strong in this country. Too many people take the ****.

I know the above statement is controversial, but as a good employee I know I never have to worry about my job. Being good provides a lot of job security.


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## thedaras (7 Jul 2010)

I do think there is some difference though, when  a customer can :

A; take their custom elsewhere,

B; Know that they can complain and be heard and heeded ;

C; Know that there will be repercussions for that member of staff ;

D;The staff are aware that if there behaviour contuinues that they will lose their jobs..

That is a big incentive to keep the customer happy and to keep your job!


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## Grizzly (7 Jul 2010)

thedaras said:


> I do think there is some difference though, when a customer can :
> 
> 
> C; Know that there will be repercussions for that member of staff ;


 
Unfortunately unless the supervisor/manager has the full co-operation of senior management, including proper training in how to deal with people the slacker can shout "bully" and probably get away with it.

The manager is then in the dock. He backs off and the slacker continues on his merry way.

It is amazing how many different types of personalities there are out there. We all know each and every type, we all work alongside them.


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## Deiseblue (7 Jul 2010)

I think it also fair to point out that the most professional level of service I encountered both on an expertise and human level was from the Social Welfare office where I sign on and the Revenue Commissioners and the Probate Office with whom I've had dealings with recently.

Unfortunately lazy co workers are the bane of every sector , I must say that in my experience in the private sector I never remember anyone being fired for non performance , sure they suffered in the promotion stakes (and not in all cases ) but that was about it.


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## DB74 (7 Jul 2010)

I suppose the difference is that my taxes don't pay the wages of those in the private sector, nor can I take my custom else where in the public sector if I'm unhappy with the level of customer servive received.

Wouldn't you agree deiseblue?


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## Firefly (7 Jul 2010)

Purple said:


> When will the Irish edition be published?


 
The link you provided is from the independent so it can't be true


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## Yorrick (7 Jul 2010)

*French Civil Servant suspended for telling truth.* 


Ah now. We cant have that type of thing starting. Where would it all end ????


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## Firefly (7 Jul 2010)

You'd have to wonder about serious dossers though (where ever they work). I equate them to the spongers living off the dole who could quite easily get a job but who prefer to lounge around all day at home. Both are probably not having a great time. For the dosser, I bet the day is really long. For that happy efficient female worker above, I bet she has a much more enjoyable day and feels a lot more fulfilled at 5pm every evening.


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## liaconn (7 Jul 2010)

DB74 said:


> I suppose the difference is that my taxes don't pay the wages of those in the private sector, nor can I take my custom else where in the public sector if I'm unhappy with the level of customer servive received.
> 
> Wouldn't you agree deiseblue?


 
That's true, but it doesn't make dossing right no matter where it happens. Nor does it mean that there are less wasters in the Private Sector than the Public Sector . You get them everywhere - some people working in public offices working as slowly as possible, some people working in shops chatting and ignoring the customers; some public servants stealing part of their salary by taking long coffee breaks and unjustified sick leave, some private sector workers stealing stock from their workplace, not declaring their full earnings for tax etc, etc. Lazy or dishonest workers cheat everyone whether they work in the public or private sector. I know people can be sacked from the private sector but it hasn't led to a noticeably improved attitude out there. You still get crap customer service, shoddy goods, late deliveries and so on, on a very regular basis regardless of how often you shop around for better service.


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## liaconn (7 Jul 2010)

By the way Purple, how do you know she was fired for 'telling the truth'. Maybe she was fired for telling a pack of lies, distorting the facts and describing events totally out of context.


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## DB74 (7 Jul 2010)

liaconn said:


> That's true, but it doesn't make dossing right no matter where it happens.


 
Absolutely but neither is dossing in the private sector some sort of justification for dossing in the public sector, via some sort of "dossing benchmark system"

If I don't like the amount of cheese that Spar put on my sandwiches then I'll go to Centra

However if I don't like the way that eg Wexford Revenue processed my tax return, can I go to Galway because I think that they are more efficient


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## DrMoriarty (7 Jul 2010)

I think you'll find it most efficient to come to Limerick.


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## liaconn (7 Jul 2010)

DB74 said:


> Absolutely but neither is dossing in the private sector some sort of justification for dossing in the public sector, via some sort of "dossing benchmark system"
> 
> If I don't like the amount of cheese that Spar put on my sandwiches then I'll go to Centra
> 
> However if I don't like the way that eg Wexford Revenue processed my tax return, can I go to Galway because I think that they are more efficient


 
I didn't say it was a justification for dossing in the Public Sector. I am just fed up of some of the smug private sector workers on here who seem to be under the illusion that you're all wonderful and inefficiencies and laziness only occur in the public sector. It's just not true and, as I said, shopping around doesn't seem to noticeably reduce the crap level of service and standard of goods that we so often experience.


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## foxylady (7 Jul 2010)

UptheDeise said:


> Chances are though when you're caught dossing like that you're sacked. Not so with the PS.


 
Thats what you would be ledt to believe but it certainly does happen


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## Purple (7 Jul 2010)

liaconn said:


> I didn't say it was a justification for dossing in the Public Sector. I am just fed up of some of the smug private sector workers on here who seem to be under the illusion that you're all wonderful and inefficiencies and laziness only occur in the public sector. It's just not true and, as I said, shopping around doesn't seem to noticeably reduce the crap level of service and standard of goods that we so often experience.



I can't argue with that.


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## Shawady (7 Jul 2010)

Purple said:


> When will the Irish edition be published?


 
Maybe you are secretly impressed they managed to claim visits to prostitutes as travel expenses.


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## Purple (7 Jul 2010)

Shawady said:


> Maybe you are secretly impressed they managed to claim visits to prostitutes as travel expenses.



well yes, there is that...


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## Firefly (7 Jul 2010)

liaconn said:


> I didn't say it was a justification for dossing in the Public Sector. I am just fed up of some of the smug private sector workers on here who seem to be under the illusion that you're all wonderful and inefficiencies and laziness only occur in the public sector. It's just not true and, as I said, shopping around doesn't seem to noticeably reduce the crap level of service and standard of goods that we so often experience.


 
Of course inefficiences occur in the private sector. The difference is that taxes raised by the private sector (plus a shedload of borrowing) pay for the wages in the public sector. Therefore, naturally if you're paying for something and you think it's crap you're not going to be happy.


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## Latrade (8 Jul 2010)

Firefly said:


> Of course inefficiences occur in the private sector. The difference is that taxes raised by the private sector (plus a shedload of borrowing) pay for the wages in the public sector. Therefore, naturally if you're paying for something and you think it's crap you're not going to be happy.


 
Apart from Management Agents for housing estates.


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## DB74 (8 Jul 2010)

Management Agents can be voted out at an AGM

Obviously if the builders are still involved then this is probably not the case but once all properties are off the builders hands then it's one man one vote at the AGM


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## Firefly (8 Jul 2010)

Latrade said:


> Apart from Management Agents for housing estates.


 
If the housing estate committe are unhappy with their management company can they not change?


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## liaconn (8 Jul 2010)

Yes, but I have never ever heard anyone say that their management company is great and brilliant value.

Oh by the way, Firefly, public sector workers pay tax too.


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## Firefly (8 Jul 2010)

liaconn said:


> Oh by the way, Firefly, public sector workers pay tax too.


 
By way of an example:

A (The government) agrees to pay B (public sector worker) 100 euro. 
B agrees to pay A back 20 euro of this upon receipt for payment (paye). *The net effect is that A still needs to find 80 euro for every public sector worker*

A has two choices: 
A can take even more money from C (private sector) .
A can borrow from D (ECB/Foreign Markets).


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## Purple (8 Jul 2010)

Firefly said:


> By way of an example:
> 
> A (The government) agrees to pay B (public sector worker) 100 euro.
> B agrees to pay A back 20 euro of this upon receipt for payment (paye). *The net effect is that A still needs to find 80 euro for every public sector worker*
> ...


Or A can just increase income taxes thus reducing the net cost of B and increasing the amount it has to pay that reduced net cost.


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## liaconn (8 Jul 2010)

Firefly said:


> By way of an example:
> 
> A (The government) agrees to pay B (public sector worker) 100 euro.
> B agrees to pay A back 20 euro of this upon receipt for payment (paye). *The net effect is that A still needs to find 80 euro for every public sector worker*
> ...


 
The point is that each individual public sector worker is paying tax at the same rate as everyone else, (and probably a lot more than some non paye workers in the private sector) so these constant posts inferring that only private sector workers pay tax are very annoying. Anyway, we're pulling this thread off topic.

To go back to the topic, was the civil servant's account of her time in the public sector verified? Someone, on their first day in a job, asking their boss if they were joking when they gave her a deadline of a week to do a job sounds a bit dodgy. If it was me I would be thinking 

'I've obviously missed something here or misunderstood what I've been asked to do'.

Maybe her boss's version is: 

'this arrogant young one arrived in to the office, only half listened to what I was asking her to do with a superior sneer on her face, and arrived back an hour and a half later with only a tiny part of the task done. She then got miffed when I asked someone else to do it properly and spent the next few months flouncing around the office talking about her qualifications, doing very little and sitting around with a bored look on her face while her colleagues were working away. She then had the nerve to write a book about how the job was beneath her, including calling the colleagues who had been carrying her for months names like Dozy and Dopey. I hope we've seen the back of her forever'.

All said in a lovely French accent of course.


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## Latrade (8 Jul 2010)

I was being slightly glib with the Management Agent bit, but there's a point in there. 

The issue is well discussed, but I've never worked in any employment that doesn't carry lazy, inefficient or incompetent people. I've never worked in any company where this is ever a significant concern in the "good times". They are carried and in some cases promoted to get them out the way. We get performance reviews, but the net effect is you have to be really bad in order to ever suffer the consequences at those things.

It's bad management, but then whether a manager works for the public or private sector, they're still just a person, a human prone to the same old issues and mistakes we can all make. Plus, the private sector is just as bad at promoting based on length of service rather than ability. We hardly ever select the right manager for the job.

In my experience a lot of managers in all sectors don't have the competence or the confidence to deal with poor performance. They're scared of a case being brought against them and it's easier to ignore the problem.

And yes, we do have a choice with the private sector, but let's face it only really if you can afford it. Sure I can go to the spar rather than centra, but that's hardly on a par with what we're comparing in the services provided.

In general, if you want a better efficient service you have to hand over more money. That's not real competition, that's not real choice. But isn't that the same for most of the public sector (not all granted)? It's only those who can't afford it who rely on the service, those who can afford it don't need to use or can afford to hand over money for a "better" private service. If I can't afford the VHI clinic or wherever, I'm stuck in the queue at A&E. If I can't afford AerLingus, I'm stuck beaten in to a Ryanair flight having foced all my luggage into a carrier bag.

I could provide equally poor and equally shocking examples of employee carry on from any job I've worked in. I can provide equally shocking examples of poor management. Just it's from the private sector. Dod our customers go elsewhere? I don't recall any.


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## Firefly (8 Jul 2010)

Latrade said:


> I can provide equally shocking examples of poor management. Just it's from the private sector. Dod our customers go elsewhere? I don't recall any.


 
I suppose the point is they can shop somewhere else. Take watching the tv for example. I can hop from RTE to TV3 to BBC as much as I like with an arial on the back of my tv. If I want to get Sky and Sky Sports, then I have to pay more but the choice is mine. However, in all cases I still have to subsidise RTE via a licence fee - no choice about that. Same goes if I want a passport..no choice on the provider. Apologies if I've steered this off topic.


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## Bill Struth (8 Jul 2010)

Firefly said:


> By way of an example:
> 
> A (The government) agrees to pay B (public sector worker) 100 euro.
> B agrees to pay A back 20 euro of this upon receipt for payment (paye). *The net effect is that A still needs to find 80 euro for every public sector worker*


 So whatever the employee needs to buy with his/her remaining 80 euro is bought tax free?


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## Latrade (8 Jul 2010)

Firefly said:


> I suppose the point is they can shop somewhere else. Take watching the tv for example. I can hop from RTE to TV3 to BBC as much as I like with an arial on the back of my tv. If I want to get Sky and Sky Sports, then I have to pay more but the choice is mine. However, in all cases I still have to subsidise RTE via a licence fee - no choice about that. Same goes if I want a passport..no choice on the provider. Apologies if I've steered this off topic.


 
There are examples of public services where there is no choice, I stated that. Motor tax, passports, few others I can't recall now. But then I only need a passport every ten years and to be honest, on that point I never leave it to the last minute before getting a replacement. Motor tax I can do in a few seconds online and it's sorted. 

But where you talk about choice, it isn't really comparing like with like. The TV one is different to just flicking channels. If you don't like the programming on the standard 4 then unless you can pay for Sky, UPC, or setting up freeview then you're stuck with them. 

The point is, the principles of a free market are great and mean competition, choice, better standards etc, but this is rarely the true case. Either we have very limited competition and choice (as we do or at least have had for a long time) or if you want a better service you have to dip into your pocket. 

Granted, the private sector is able to turn around quicker in a recession. It's able to shed costs and to change operations. But let's be honest, in many cases it took the recession to bring on that change, for years we were ripped off paying for the excesses of the private sector in what we had to buy. In a lot of cases there was no competition because the good ol' boys in some cases had price fixing, or the state allows a fixed number of service providers and we can't shop around, or we were just charged more by everyone because we had more money. 

The notion of competition in this country seemed to involve matching the prices of the highest charger rather than looking for a better service.


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## Complainer (9 Jul 2010)

UFC said:


> but as a good employee I know I never have to worry about my job. Being good provides a lot of job security.


Thanks for making my day. Black humour always makes me laugh.


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## Purple (9 Jul 2010)

Complainer said:


> Thanks for making my day. Black humour always makes me laugh.



It's only funny it you are bitter and cynical.


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## liaconn (12 Jul 2010)

Or have lived in the real world. Have you seriously never seen a good worker being shafted because some layabout was well in with the boss?


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## Mpsox (12 Jul 2010)

liaconn said:


> Or have lived in the real world. Have you seriously never seen a good worker being shafted because some layabout was well in with the boss?


 
Yes, but I've seen far far more below par workers with inflated self opinions as to their own ability, performance and value to an organisation "shafted"


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## Purple (12 Jul 2010)

mpsox said:


> yes, but i've seen far far more below par workers with inflated self opinions as to their own ability, performance and value to an organisation "shafted"



+1


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## Leper (14 Jul 2010)

You know, we used to be a friendly people especially in the years prior to us joining the EU.  Shops were closed on Sundays, the pace of life was slower, we had time for ourselves and for others.  We even knew our neighbours not just in name, but in their trials and tribulations. We helped people.

Then along came the banks, multinationals, change of attitude and greed.  These appeared to be the panacea of all our ills.  Of course rampant inflation killed off any gains.  But, we wanted our five bedroomed homes, a car for each occupant and a desire to be seen in the "in" restaurant.  Then we spent our Sundays driving to a shopping centre, looking for a car space and then the highlight of the day buying groceries.

Now, we have no time for small-talk, couldn't give a **** about anybody let alone our neighbours.  We don't know even their names anyway. We are caught up in a recession caused by the people who run our lives who keep telling us 'We never had it so good . . .'  Even with on-line facilities we cannot wait even five minutes for any service. We are perfect, but those working in 'less paying jobs' are beneath us.

We wanted to be screwed and we were.  But, we think everything's great. And it is, isn't it?


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## liaconn (14 Jul 2010)

Sorry, but what has this got to do with..........?


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## Purple (14 Jul 2010)

liaconn said:


> Sorry, but what has this got to do with..........?



Well in fairness it was "Letting off Steam"!


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## Leper (14 Jul 2010)

OMG Purple,

thanks

Lep


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