# Non resident beneficiaries obligation to file return



## marymary2 (1 Aug 2014)

I am the co-executor of a will with a number of overseas beneficiaries. (Charities and individuals about 20 in total in Chile, Uk, Portugul Spain) After 18 very long months we're finally able to start distributing the estate. The solicitor is stating an additional fee will be payable by each of these beneficaries for preparing the individual gift tax return required by revenue before they can receive their legacy. The solicitor also states the estate cannot carry the cost even though there are surplus funds.  
A PPS number has been created for the non residents where they did not have one.

 Is it correct that the  beneficiaries’ cannot do it themselves it must be done through an agent recognised by the Irish revenue? Some of the beneficaries would be well able to do it themselves, others would not.

If  they must use an agent any ideas on what a reasonable charge would be would be appreciated?

Thanks


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## Jim2007 (1 Aug 2014)

marymary2 said:


> The solicitor also states the estate cannot carry the cost even though there are surplus funds.



Well whatever else, I would think that the cost should not come out of the estate as they are not an expense of the estate.  It is the responsibility of the beneficiaries to file their tax returns and if they decide to appoint an agent to do it for them then they should carry the costs of doing so not the estate.


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## marymary2 (1 Aug 2014)

Hi Jim,
That's the real issue. The solicitor is saying they have to appoint an agent they have no choice in the matter under the relevant tax law. They can't do it themselves. So I'm trying to clarify if this is correct and if so what is a reasonable  fee.


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## Jim2007 (1 Aug 2014)

marymary2 said:


> Hi Jim,
> That's the real issue. The solicitor is saying they have to appoint an agent they have no choice in the matter under the relevant tax law. They can't do it themselves. So I'm trying to clarify if this is correct and if so what is a reasonable  fee.



My point was that first of all the costs are not the responsibility of the  estate and secondly the beneficiaries are free to appoint an agent other than this solicitor, after getting a quote of the fees involved assuming that it is in fact necessary to appoint an agent in the first place.


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## Jim2007 (1 Aug 2014)

I just had a dig through the revenue site and found this document: A Guide to Changes to Probate & Capital Acquisitions Tax.

Have a read of 2.3.4, it seems to indicate that an agent is required in cases where the about involved is greater than 20K.  

Hopefully someone with some experience in this area will provide you with a full answer.


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## marymary2 (1 Aug 2014)

Thanks Jim, that's very useful indeed. None of the legacies exceed 20k some are €20k so it would be interesting to know what happens in these situations.
regards
Carol


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## Branz (1 Aug 2014)

2.3.3 is key here as it does away with the idea of secondary accountability, which meant a loss of fees for solicitors as now, for resident beneficiaries,  its their responsibilities to file, however many lawyers still try it on. I have reported 3 lots already this year for doing this wrong.
Under
2.3.4 I believe the executors can act as the agent and as its all done on ROS, no need for any drama.
I have done it for folk who have given me the tax due and after I press enter we have a virtual glass of wine.
OP, have u access to ROS, the online form is easy?


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## marymary2 (1 Aug 2014)

*using ros for i38*

Thks Ircoha
Thats very good 2 know. Might do it for non resident  siblings but with  20 others some of whom  dont speak English & may have received previous gifts I don't think  so. Have now emailed revenue for  complete clarity.  I am on ros personally.will let u know revenue response.


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## Branz (2 Aug 2014)

No worries, if u have ros then look in, u will see that all u need is the disponer pps number and the beneficiaries pps number for what I think is  form it 38.
What they are doing is just joining sll the dots....
Some solicitors are still trying to do it the old way for res beneficiaries,  looking for all previous inheritances by class etc etc and charge for the service
You might be better calling revenue,  sometimes its quicker.
Keep well


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## Black Sheep (3 Aug 2014)

From my experience I have found a personal call (face to face)to revenue worked very well when dealing with inheritance tax. They were excellent, filled out the necessary forms and gave advice to help siblings with their forms.  No queue, all done in 30 mins.


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## marymary2 (3 Aug 2014)

Blacksheep. That's very impressive service for those that can call into the revenue. Ircoha, I also took a look at ROS and it seems easy enough to file online for other people. You can also apparently print a copy of the revenue acknowledgment of filing so that   should keep the solicitor happy.


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## Branz (3 Aug 2014)

Mary, glad to help.
Blacksheep: most of that that group hug cuddly stuff died with FA 2010
With very few exceptions, ROS filing is obligatory for CAT
http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/cat/finance2010-faqs.html


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## Black Sheep (3 Aug 2014)

No ROS in my case and my last visit was fairly recent so there are still some real live human beings in revenue


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## marymary2 (25 Aug 2014)

Well got response from revenue and they were really helpful. Solicitor is responsible for ensuring tax is paid but not for making return so solicitor cannot  demand fees for this! Return  is easy enough as previous gifts affecting threshold should have been previously declared on probate affadavit.  If I fill out form they will check sample then I can fill out rest of forms. Did try to use ROS but kept getting error messages which did not show the errors! so I think I will try the paper version.
Thanks for all the help.


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## Branz (26 Aug 2014)

Thanks for update:
Just wonder is what they told you at variance with what is written in the Guide
http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/cat/finance2010-faqs.html

re non-res beneficiaries ( my emphasis)
at 2.3.4

Requirement to appoint an Irish-resident “agent” who will be responsible for pay and file procedures where beneficiaries are non-resident.
One area of concern relates to the payment of CAT by non-resident beneficiaries. To address this 
situation, an Irish resident personal representative taking out probate or letters of administration 
will be appointed as an “Agent” of a non-resident beneficiary entitled to a benefit exceeding 
€20,000. The agent will be responsible for the pay and file requirements of the non-resident 
beneficiary. In this regard, the agent will be entitled to retain funds adequate to meet the CAT 
liability from any amounts due to the beneficiary under the control of the agent. The liability of 
the agent will be restricted to the extent of the funds under his/her control which are available 
for distribution to the beneficiary.


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## Thirsty (26 Aug 2014)

From memory the agent only has to be appointed if both the executor and the beneficiary are nonresident.


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