# 4 PIAs, 51 DSAs, 66 bankruptcies to date



## Brendan Burgess

The Insolvency Service issued their first statistics today. 

Very few PIAs have been agreed. 

On Morning Ireland, he said that there were 500 PIAs in the system covering debts of €300m.  That is an average of €600k in debts each. 

So there are and will be very few PIAs affecting the average family home in arrears which has a mortgage of around €250k. 

Oddly enough, he expected that by this time next year, "thousands of PIAs" will have been agreed. It's very hard to forecast these things, but I don't expect there will be many.  

Brendan


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## Steve Thatcher

That is 15 months after the legislation hit the statute book and 6 months after these could properly be created.
How many PIPs are licensed, and how many are actually delivering results?

55 solutions in 6 months

Steve


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## Dr.Debt

I think the figures have been delivered in a particularly positive way.

70 protective certificates have been issued by the courts to date
7 DSAs have been concluded
4 PIAs have been concluded

This means that for every twelve PIPs in the country, one case has been concluded

We are told that there are now 500 cases in the system which is definitely a step in the right direction. This would seem to imply that the Insolvency Service of Ireland has experienced an avalanche of new cases in the last few weeks. It will be interesting to see how many protective certificates will have been issued at the end of the next quarter. Presumably it will be well in excess of 600 based on the figures provided.

Am I being too negative here by pointing out that the forecast number of arrangements in the 1st year was to be 15000 and so far we have achieved 11 and the press release related to this is in the mood of popping champagne corks !! 
The ISI has missed its target by 99% +. Ask any junior sales rep what happens when you miss your target by 99%...............

Im not saying that Lorcan O Connor should release a doom and gloom press release but he should be realistic and concede that 4 completed PIAs in the first year is a failure and nothing but a failure. Its a failure of legislation. The one failure on the part of the ISI is its failure to accept that the legislation has not worked as it might have and its apparent resistance to making any changes to it.There is a need for formal arrangements but the legislation needs to be revised and simplified to make them a more attractive option to debtors. What needs to be done is a subject for another thread. Do we need formal arrangements, Yes we do. Are the ISI capable of administering the process, Yes it is. Does the legislation need revising. Absolutely yes it does.


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## Bronte

There are now 128 Pip's and rising
70 Approved Intermediaries (what are those?)

500 cases so far
50 new every week, so for 2014 that will be 2500 

70 protective certs

55 arrangements, broken down as
44 DRN's. 7 DSA's and 4 PIA's

Are some of those figures overlapping. As in is it 70 + 55 + 44 + 7 +4 = 180, dealt with or on the way to be dealt with out of the 500 in the system?

What's happening the otehr 320?

Dr Debt where is your figure of 11 coming from, the 7 + 4?

14% of debtors are in the public service

The largest by age group is the 35-44 and then the 45-55.

The time line of 18 days seems extraordinarily efficient.  18 days from initial PIP talking to the ISI to getting a court issued protective certificate.  No way..


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## Brendan Burgess

> The ISI has missed its target by 99%. Ask any junior sales rep what happens when you miss your target by 99%...............



That is a completely false comparison. 

Why would the ISI have targets? There may have been forecasts.  But hardly targets.

if the economy recovers and people and bankers behave responsibly, we should have very few insolvencies.


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## Dr.Debt

Yes it is a target and that's the point that's being missed. There is a target to alleviate as many distressed borrowers as possible and in the ISI's case that target is 15,000 per year. The fact that the target has been missed means that many of  those debtors are still in distress and the cases that we had hoped / expected to be resolved by now through formal arrangements have not been. Brendan, In my view forecasts are used for predicting the weather, targets are used for setting goals to measure our effectiveness and performance on a task. One of two things has happened here. Either we have got off to a very slow start which is now correcting OR the framework is flawed and needs revisiting. I think it will be much clearer in six months which of these applies.


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## Dr.Debt

Hi Bronte

As you quite rightly point out my earlier understanding was that 55 DSAs had been concluded (as taken from Brendan's opening post). In fact the correct figure is only 7. In terms of PIAs, 4 have been concluded. That means that there are about 59 PCs in existence for arrangements that have not yet come to conclusion (or in respect of arrangements that have failed or didnt proceed).

A PC is required for each and every PIA and DSA and so far 70 have been issued by the courts.


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## Brendan Burgess

Dr.Debt said:


> Yes it is a target and that's the point that's being missed. There is a target to alleviate as many distressed borrowers as possible and in the ISI's case that target is 15,000 per year.



Hi Dr Debt. 

Thanks for that. I had missed the fact that it was a target. 

Who set it for them? 

I still don't think that they are appropriate.  The mere existence of PIAs and Bankruptcy has encouraged the lenders to offer generous split mortgages, and in the case of AIB, debt write down.  In most cases, this is preferable to a PIA or bankruptcy.


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## Dr.Debt

Brendan, The split mortgage is an interesting one and we need to wait and see how that works out in practice. We need to see what numbers of cases are offered as splits.Again I'm thinking the numbers will be extremely small but I'm open minded for now.

Despite what is being said I dont believe there is much correlation between lenders offering splits and the arrival of formal arrangements.

I think its a missed opportunity to believe that a DSA or a PIA is merely a stick to beat the banks with. A properly functioning PIA in a simplified framework that can be rolled out at a reasonable cost to the debtor and the creditor is what is needed. It should be something that the banks welcome and utilise rather than something to be feared or something to react against. The PIA legislation in current format is a complex cumbersome framework that is difficult and expensive to work with.
When the legislation was being drafted there were too many empty chairs around the table and that needs to be corrected now.


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## Steve Thatcher

Dr.Debt said:


> Brendan, The split mortgage is an interesting one and we need to wait and see how that works out in practice. We need to see what numbers of cases are offered as splits.Again I'm thinking the numbers will be extremely small but I'm open minded for now.
> 
> Despite what is being said I dont believe there is much correlation between lenders offering splits and the arrival of formal arrangements.
> 
> I think its a missed opportunity to believe that a DSA or a PIA is merely a stick to beat the banks with. A properly functioning PIA in a simplified framework that can be rolled out at a reasonable cost to the debtor and the creditor is what is needed. It should be something that the banks welcome and utilise rather than something to be feared or something to react against. The PIA legislation in current format is a complex cumbersome framework that is difficult and expensive to work with.
> When the legislation was being drafted there were too many empty chairs around the table and that needs to be corrected now.



I agree entirely, in the meantime, I have had 15 enquiries just this week for meetings. Why are people still seeking the UK? Because they can't get, or don't want what is offered in the current system. These are just the people who can move, and yet I am still generating more results than all of the PIP sector in Ireland as published.

Many will go bankrupt using one of then advisors, and if i can guide anyone, please call David Hall at IMBO. It's free!!

Hey ho, I thought my phone would have stopped ringing by now. It hasn't but I genuinely hope it does.

Steve Thatcher
www.stevethatcher.ie


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## Bronte

Here's why you are still getting so many enquiries Steve:

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/c...ishy-about-insolvency-solutions-30154305.html

Charlie Weston is the business editor of one of our best selling newspapers. 

Meanwhile Lorcan O' Connor can get away with presenting that absymal failure of a report yesterday and nobody can question him and nobody can question how such a sorry mess, including the legislation, came to pass. I wouldn't mind but FG were supposed to be better than FF. How many years is it now and too many people are no nearer to getting solutions.


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## Gerry Canning

From Mr Westons article; as things rest there are obvious conflicts here.

1. As set up, most  Insolvency arrangements have an effective Bank Veto.
2. Government have impressed that they do not wish to see widespread repossessions. 
I just cannot see how these 2 positions can work in practise. Unless lenders and borrowers are legislatively driven into practical arrangements, there is not enough will/trust twix lender/borrower for the present system to work.
The number processed to date is risable! 
At this stage , Even IF a DSA or PIA ends up as a stick to beat Banks with, and I am not sure it is, lets get on with it.
I am very taken that Steve does more than our PIP service?


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## Brendan Burgess

Bronte said:


> Meanwhile Lorcan O' Connor can get away with presenting that absymal failure of a report yesterday and nobody can question him and nobody can question how such a sorry mess, including the legislation, came to pass.



Hi Bronte

He is appearing shortly before the Oireachtas Finance Committee, I believe. Or maybe the Justice Committee. So if you have questions for him, contact a member of the relevant committee. 

I don't think we can blame him for the legislation.  He didn't write it. But now that it's in place, I have no doubt that he will be giving the Minister feedback on how it's working in practice. 

Brendan


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## demoivre

Brendan Burgess said:


> The mere existence of PIAs and Bankruptcy has encouraged the lenders to offer generous split mortgages, and in the case of AIB, debt write down.  In most cases, this is preferable to a PIA or bankruptcy.



I agree with this assessment. The average debt write down under the ISI has been 77% and the debtor's name goes on a register for all to see. The banks would no doubt like to improve on that percentage and not too many debtors want their names in the public domain for the wrong reasons so there are plenty of incentives on both sides to come to an arrangement regarding unsustainable debts outside of the formal framework of the ISI.


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## Matthew Moore

Why would these thousands of debtors enter into PIA/DSA/Bankruptcies when at the  moment there is very little consequences for not paying your debts? 

When  we see a larger amount of repossessions and the sheriff executing  seizure orders you will then see these debtors seeking solutions. Until  then there is no incentive for people to change their living standards  to meet the reasonable living expenses and be a guinea pig for an  untested process.
I say this as someone who with debts into hundreds  of thousands of euros and has faced very little action regarding it. I  am seeking bankruptcy as I want to draw a line in the sand but I could  also have very easily kept plodding along and drawing out any processes  that were ongoing.

I'm sure our new system has it's faults and I hope they're ironed out but I believe the PIA's are based closely on the uk system and that seems to work just fine


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## Brendan Burgess

pat2 said:


> I believe the PIA's are based closely on the uk system and that seems to work just fine



Not at all. There is no precedent *anywhere in the world *for our PIAs which deal with secured and unsecured debt. 

In the vast majority of countries, when a borrower can't pay their mortgage, the house is repossessed and sold by the bank. 

Our Debt Settlement Arrangement is similar to the IVA in the UK.

Brendan


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## Bronte

I see the insolvency service are at it again, predicting a thousand bankruptcies a year, no idea where they are getting the figure from though:

http://www.independent.ie/business/...ptcy-to-soar-into-the-thousands-30182763.html

Most interesting is that all this is going to cost someone. The official assignee instead of selling property is going to hold on to it and manage it. And pay someone to manage it. So now we'll have another new property company in addition to Nama. 

I guess the likes of the rent receivers who get paid about 1200 a month, and the auctioneers/estate agents will be paid ? a month, and the locksmiths, and the connection the gas and esb people will all be delighted with this little money spinner. 

We have a shortage of property in Dublin, the Minister for Finance wants property to go higher, Nama is holding onto apparently vast swaths of property and now the Insolvency Service/Official Asssignee is going to also hold onto property, is everybody waiting for the top of the bubble to sell?

In the UK when there is a bankruptcy, does the agency hold onto property and deal with it or do they immediately sell it?


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## Matthew Moore

Brendan Burgess said:


> Not at all. There is no precedent *anywhere in the world *for our PIAs which deal with secured and unsecured debt.
> 
> In the vast majority of countries, when a borrower can't pay their mortgage, the house is repossessed and sold by the bank.
> 
> Our Debt Settlement Arrangement is similar to the IVA in the UK.
> 
> Brendan



Is it not true that an IVA can also deal with secured debt if the creditor agrees? This would effectively give them a veto similar to the Irish situation


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## Matthew Moore

Bronte said:


> I see the insolvency service are at it again, predicting a thousand bankruptcies a year, no idea where they are getting the figure from though:
> 
> http://www.independent.ie/business/...ptcy-to-soar-into-the-thousands-30182763.html
> 
> Most interesting is that all this is going to cost someone. The official assignee instead of selling property is going to hold on to it and manage it. And pay someone to manage it. So now we'll have another new property company in addition to Nama.
> 
> I guess the likes of the rent receivers who get paid about 1200 a month, and the auctioneers/estate agents will be paid ? a month, and the locksmiths, and the connection the gas and esb people will all be delighted with this little money spinner.
> 
> We have a shortage of property in Dublin, the Minister for Finance wants property to go higher, Nama is holding onto apparently vast swaths of property and now the Insolvency Service/Official Asssignee is going to also hold onto property, is everybody waiting for the top of the bubble to sell?
> 
> In the UK when there is a bankruptcy, does the agency hold onto property and deal with it or do they immediately sell it?



I don't see the problem with this practice if it is cost effective and not seen as a gravy train. It states in the article that he will do this for rental properties that come into his control so we must remember that if this property is occupied then it is somebodies home. Should they be immediately evicted?
Why sell at the bottom of the market when you have a rent coming in?


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## Bronte

pat2 said:


> Why sell at the bottom of the market when you have a rent coming in?


 
Do the maths on it.  Rent less property manager, less estate agent, less property tax, less PRTB registration.  You can be sure that everything will be charged at top dollar by the 'professionals.'

It's hard enough right now to be a landlord, if you also had to hire the experts you can be guaranteed that you will be running at a loss.  

Do you actually believe that the OA should become a property manager?


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## Gerry Canning

pat2; 
From what I am seeing the practise is not cost effective in many cases.
It maybe effective in larger urban areas where binding leases etc are in place.
In the smaller properties I see rent/Esb/gas bill issues with too many residents being more transient rather than them viewing the property as a home.
Eviction is still difficult ,even if warrented in some cases.

I cannot but think that in many cases Rent Receivers are in place whilst the Lender studies his options.ie a short term fix for lender.

In short, the underlying problem has not been tackled.


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## Matthew Moore

Bronte said:


> Do the maths on it.  Rent less property manager, less estate agent, less property tax, less PRTB registration.  You can be sure that everything will be charged at top dollar by the 'professionals.'
> 
> It's hard enough right now to be a landlord, if you also had to hire the experts you can be guaranteed that you will be running at a loss.
> 
> Do you actually believe that the OA should become a property manager?



Yes of course the OA should become a property manager. That is his job. Should he decide to keep the property for the moment I would expect him to contract some sort of letting agent/property manager. I know very little about letting or landlords but I thought the charge for these services would be 10-15% of annual rental income. Am I close?


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## Matthew Moore

Gerry Canning said:


> pat2;
> From what I am seeing the practise is not cost effective in many cases.
> It maybe effective in larger urban areas where binding leases etc are in place.
> In the smaller properties I see rent/Esb/gas bill issues with too many residents being more transient rather than them viewing the property as a home.
> Eviction is still difficult ,even if warrented in some cases.
> 
> I cannot but think that in many cases Rent Receivers are in place whilst the Lender studies his options.ie a short term fix for lender.
> 
> In short, the underlying problem has not been tackled.



We are talking about the OA here and not lenders. I can imagine when it comes to lenders it's quite messy. 
It's up to the OA to maximise returns. If keeping tenants in situ is what he see's fit well and good. He has quite a bit of time(unlimited I think) to deal with property and he would be mad to sell close to the bottom with rent coming in.


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## Ger1964V2

pat2 said:


> We are talking about the OA here and not lenders. I can imagine when it comes to lenders it's quite messy.
> It's up to the OA to maximise returns. If keeping tenants in situ is what he see's fit well and good. He has quite a bit of time(unlimited I think) to deal with property and he would be mad to sell close to the bottom with rent coming in.



I think this whole forum is an indication of the failure of the reformed Irish bankruptcy law. It continues to be dominated by people looking at UK solutions.


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## Matthew Moore

Ger1964V2 said:


> I think this whole forum is an indication of the failure of the reformed Irish bankruptcy law. It continues to be dominated by people looking at UK solutions.



Where do you think the reform of the Irish bankruptcy law has failed?
What benefits do you see with the Irish system versus the UK?


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## TinyCake

I started the frustratingly slow insolvency process in Ireland 4 months ago, and prior to that I tried to engage with my bank directly for 6 months.   10 months in all, and I still have not started the 6 year repayment process, as I await the protective cert.  Why has Irish bankruptcy law failed?  There is too much 'veto' power given to the banks, there is too much red tape and administration, it is time consuming, weighted to the middle class and prioritises punishment over forgiveness. 

I use the term forgiveness lightly; to be forgiven, one must commit a sin: my sin was buying a property that is now 75% in negative equity. I've actually paid off any personal debt.  

The process has been so slow, I am in limbo and all I hear now is silence from my 'PIP' - I can honestly say this is one of the darkest times of my life. The insolvency service is a joke and I look now to leave my partner and friends and family behind to embrace a system that genuinely forgives and enables people to rebuild their life after bankruptcy - in the UK.


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## DebtCert

There is no veto in bankruptcy that I am aware of.  I presume you are applying for a PIA rather than for bankruptcy.  There is a distinct difference there and comparing an Irish PIA with an English bankruptcy is not comparing like with like. A person can go bankrupt here in a couple of weeks through self-adjudication.


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## TinyCake

Indeed, you presume correct, a PIA.  Ultimately the banks can veto any proposal in insolvency.  This is the long winded process that I refer, which can take up to 6 months (including a 70 day negotiation process) to reach completion. The risk is you could to be told your proposal was vetoed after such a long time at which point you can start the bankruptcy process from scratch in Ireland or you can go the UK, live there for a few months and be finished in 16 months.  Not like with like, but a very viable alternative to insolvency.


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## DebtCert

Accepted fully.  You won't get a PIA and the associated protections for the family home in the UK though.  If the decision is bankruptcy then it's nearly easier to do it here anymore. For sure its a bit longer at three years but no need to uproot and no messing with establishing a COMI.


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## Ger1964V2

pat2 said:


> Where do you think the reform of the Irish bankruptcy law has failed?
> What benefits do you see with the Irish system versus the UK?



Pat2

You seem to have an issue with the whole ideas of insolvency. I think my post was clear enough, Askaboutmoney.com posters on this forum don't even to seem to consider using the Irish route, if at all possible. The title of this thread indicates that failure.

There are plenty of reasons why the Irish system has failed: 2 off the top of my head:

1) In an IVA the secured lender has a veto, and the CEO of BOI has indicated that they will always exercise that veto
2) A UK bankruptcy is for one year and unless you mess around its straight forward. In Ireland its three years, and maybe three more or five or whatever the assignee  feels like.

I don't have a problem with your view that bankruptcy is morally worng and that it creates a "a moral hazzar" but posting on this form with such a political view is unhelpful to those people looking for advice, help and a solution.

The Irish insolvency legislation has failed, look at the numbers on this thread.

Ger


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## Matthew Moore

Ger1964V2 said:


> Pat2
> 
> You seem to have an issue with the whole ideas of insolvency. I think my post was clear enough, Askaboutmoney.com posters on this forum don't even to seem to consider using the Irish route, if at all possible. The title of this thread indicates that failure.
> 
> There are plenty of reasons why the Irish system has failed: 2 off the top of my head:
> 
> 1) In an IVA the secured lender has a veto, and the CEO of BOI has indicated that they will always exercise that veto
> 2) A UK bankruptcy is for one year and unless you mess around its straight forward. In Ireland its three years, and maybe three more or five or whatever the assignee  feels like.
> 
> I don't have a problem with your view that bankruptcy is morally worng and that it creates a "a moral hazzar" but posting on this form with such a political view is unhelpful to those people looking for advice, help and a solution.
> 
> The Irish insolvency legislation has failed, look at the numbers on this thread.
> 
> Ger



Ger,

I believe everything you said in your post is wrong. I'm all for a bit of debate on these issues but please keep your assumptions about me to yourself. 

On your points about how the Irish system has failed.
1. There is no such thing as an IVA in Ireland. The UK have IVA's as an alternative to bankruptcy. Secured creditors have an option to not be included which effectively gives them a veto without a vote. 
In Ireland our closet equivelant would be a PIA. A secured creditor does indeed also have a veto here but only after a vote and if they have a sufficient percentage of the votes by number (possibly 50%, I'm not too sure)

2. The time for automatic discharge in the UK is 1 year. They can put an IPA/IPO for a further 3 years in place at any time during this year if your income exceeds reasonable living expenses. This happens in about 23% of cases of bankruptcy in the UK. The reasonable in the UK are less generous than the living expenses in Ireland.
In Ireland it's 3 years for automatic discharge and an IPA/IPO can last for 5 years. 
What experts both sides of the water recommend is that if a IPA/IPO is unavoidable then enter it as early in the bankruptcy as possible. Bearing this in mind, to compare like with like it will be a total of a litlle more than 3 years in the UK and 5 years in Ireland. If you are based in Ireland at the moment you need to consider the 6 months or so it will take to establish your COMI in the UK. We're now down to 3.5 years versus 5 years. Not much of a difference considering all the hassle and expense of going to the UK. 
One must also consider how long they will have to wait for a court date. In Ireland I believe that its a week or so wait for a court date once your documents are in order. I don't know how long it is in the UK.

Overall I believe the UK only offers a viable solution if you have a considerable warchest of £20k+ to see you through the moving fees, accommodation costs, adviser costs and some way to keep your income below very tight reasonable living expenses.
In Ireland you will get free advice and help if required. Plenty of government support if eligible and more generous living expenses. The possibility that you will retain your family home. Most importantly you will have the support of family and friends unless ofcourse you are lucky enough to have these support bases in the UK already.

Finally, on your assumption that I have a problem with insolvency and bankruptcy with may prevent people getting help on this website I refer you to my contributions to this thread. http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=182550
Please take the time to read the whole thread before making further assumptions.

In my opinion Irish insolvency legislation is just getting warmed up and there will many more cases as it becomes the norm in coming years. We may even see people being discharged earlier than 3 years, who knows.


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## Bronte

pat2 said:


> Yes of course the OA should become a property manager. That is his job. Should he decide to keep the property for the moment I would expect him to contract some sort of letting agent/property manager. I know very little about letting or landlords but I thought the charge for these services would be 10-15% of annual rental income. Am I close?


 
You are way off, that's in a normal owner with an estate agent managing and all going well.  What happens in involvency is vastly different.  

I know a property rent about 500, rent receiver 1200 or so monthly, and he's not the guy going to do the renting that will be an estate agent.  

So in essence if house eventually gets sold the bank will get paractially nothing.  

I read an article recently about the New Land League/Jerry Beads.  While I'm totally not a fan of his, I do agree that the banks are going to get peanuts after all the rest have been paid off.  

Those top name people cost a lot of money.   We are talking about the big boys.


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## Bronte

Gerry Canning said:


> I cannot but think that in many cases Rent Receivers are in place whilst the Lender studies his options.ie a short term fix for lender.
> 
> In short, the underlying problem has not been tackled.


 
That's an interesting point Gerry. No way is this making financial sense on one off properties in ballygo backwards. 

You would think that after all these years of no movement that banks wouldn't need 'short term' fixes. Something else is wrong. 

I had relations tell me shocked last weekend of visiting a housing estate and seeing 4 boarded up houses the and place starting to look really rough. The reality now if for the at estate that nobody can sell. 

I've heard that owners are stripping out everything and selling it on done deal.


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## Bronte

pat2 said:


> . If keeping tenants in situ is what he see's fit well and good. He has quite a bit of time(unlimited I think) to deal with property and he would be mad to sell close to the bottom with rent coming in.


 
This is not the reality of property management in Ireland.  It might apply to big blocks of apartments in Dublin, but not anywhere else.  

The minute a tenant hears of rent receivers they decide to leave or don't know who to pay rent to and start not paying anybody anything.  Then begins the long long process of eviction.  

I laugh when I hear of these rent receivers, they are going to deal with the tenants ringing up when they've locked themselves out because they were out on the town, or fixing the washing machine becase the tenant thinks it's a good idea to wash shoes in it.....


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## Matthew Moore

Bronte said:


> You are way off, that's in a normal owner with an estate agent managing and all going well.  What happens in involvency is vastly different.
> 
> I know a property rent about 500, rent receiver 1200 or so monthly, and he's not the guy going to do the renting that will be an estate agent.
> 
> So in essence if house eventually gets sold the bank will get paractially nothing.
> 
> I read an article recently about the New Land League/Jerry Beads.  While I'm totally not a fan of his, I do agree that the banks are going to get peanuts after all the rest have been paid off.
> 
> Those top name people cost a lot of money.   We are talking about the big boys.



I haven't heard of this, it sounds truly bizarre to pay somebody 1200pm for a property with a rental income 500pm. 
If you have examples I would recommend finding out who is on the finance committee and get the point raised next them the banks are in. Likewise, if it was the OA engaging in this it needs to be nipped in the bud.


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## Bronte

pat2 said:


> I haven't heard of this, it sounds truly bizarre to pay somebody 1200pm for a property with a rental income 500pm.
> .


 
Who do you think are making the big bucks in the economic downturn?


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## Matthew Moore

Bronte said:


> Who do you think are making the big bucks in the economic downturn?



I don't know and won't speculate but I can assure you it's not me! 

As I said, if you have proof of this you should bring it to a public represenatives attention. If this practice is happening at any of the banks that the state have invested in it should be stopped. There's no point in giving out about it in years to come when there's some inquiry if you have proof now. If a bank was so rotten at the bottom you can be assured they are rotten all the way up.


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## RainyDay

Bronte said:


> I know a property rent about 500, rent receiver 1200 or so monthly, and he's not the guy going to do the renting that will be an estate agent.


Can you clarify exactly what you mean here please? I'm confused as to who is getting €500 and who is getting €1200.


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## Bronte

Sure Rainyday, figures are approx, but the rent was about 500 Euro, when tenants started getting 'legal' letters from rent receivers they decided to leave.  The bank rent receiver's fee is 1200 Euro, but this does not involve them doing the actual renting.  They seem to act as the banks agent.  In turn an estate agent has to manage the property, they seem to organise the locksmith, the gas/water/esb connections, or disconnections and ultimately the tenant.  There is an added mess in the fact that the deposit the tenant paid to the original landlord is not the obligation of the bank/receiver, so you can well see why a tenant would up sticks.    

I think you are a landlord like myself, doing things this way would be insane. 

There is no way to verify this, but it's not the only one I'm aware of.  Ask maybe some of the posters on here, like Gerry, who handle bankrupt landlords to clarify if my understanding is way off.  

I think the problem is we have 'banks' who don't know how to manage properties making silly decisons.  Or else it's deliberate, as in nobody cares on maximising a return, it's all about 'managing' rather than taking an actual write down by selling the properties.


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## RainyDay

Bronte said:


> Sure Rainyday, figures are approx, but the rent was about 500 Euro, when tenants started getting 'legal' letters from rent receivers they decided to leave.  The bank rent receiver's fee is 1200 Euro, but this does not involve them doing the actual renting.  They seem to act as the banks agent.  In turn an estate agent has to manage the property, they seem to organise the locksmith, the gas/water/esb connections, or disconnections and ultimately the tenant.  There is an added mess in the fact that the deposit the tenant paid to the original landlord is not the obligation of the bank/receiver, so you can well see why a tenant would up sticks.


So just to be sure I'm understanding you, the rent is about €500 per month, and bank rent receivers fee is about €1200 per month?



Bronte said:


> I think you are a landlord like myself, doing things this way would be insane.


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## Bronte

Correct. Unless the information I received is incorrect. And in this particular case the tenant decided enough was enough and left.

There are some of these 'professionals' that won't get out of bed for a lot of money. 

Actually talking of which, you've just reminded me, I met a guy collecting money for a moneylender, *very* recently. Had a good chat with him, nice fellow. It was in the course of him doing another job and approaching me. As you do I chatted away and then discussed this side of his life. As I had a very low opinion of moneylenders I was surprised at this side to his life. It's not something he does all the time, but was requested recently to do. The moneylender paid him 250 Euro for three days work (cash naturally) but he wanted 350 Euro, so he's refusing to continue. I asked him does he do the heavy stuff, and he said there was non of that anymore. I asked what kind of people and why. I had assumed only poorer people, not so apparently. For the usual stuff, communions, weddings etc. But also middle class people and males and females too. Interest rate about 200% he said, and I said are you not sorry for them people. Not a bit of it he said. In his opinion people just will not save to spend so he thought they deserved everthing coming at them.  Plenty of these people have literally just come back from Spain etc on their holidays. So borrowing at insane interest rates to go on holiday. Hard to have sympathy for that. His view is that most people are chancers.

Incidently he's a landlord too, in massive NE.  Willing to acknowled he made a big mistake (around the 270K mark)  But I knew from the way he talked about his tenants that he's a decent soul.


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## 44brendan

Just a point of clarification on the above response. Bronte is broadly correct on the monthly cost of a professional receiver (figures quoted are not top of the scale). However a bank will very rarely appoint a rent receiver over a residential property. Most receivers are appointed to sell the property and if a tenant is in sitiu, then they will also collect the rent pending sale.


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## Bronte

Would I be correct 44Brendan is stating that the figure quoted is actually bottom of the scale. And would it also be correct to state the 'receiver' manages the property but doesn't actually do anything, they then appoint the next guy in the chain to do their bit as in the estate agent to do the rent or manage the actual selling. 

Would it also be correct to state that in low value property, say under 100K that the bank will end up with very little after paying everybody. Receiver, security, estate agent, repairs, nppr, solicitor. 

And if correct in this, that an offer say of 50K on a value of 100K would make more sense. But that banks will not play ball on this. 

(Agreed that the likelyhood in this case might have been to sell, but in this particular case the receivers have now pulled out. And courts are involved.)


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## 44brendan

Quite correct Bronte. In theory virtually anybody can be appointed as a receiver. However Banks tend to appoint from the top firms and few would work at that level of recompense!


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## Bronte

What's your opinion of the new insolvency regime? 

If you cannot give your opinion, can you confirm that too if it is the case.


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## Kine

My take is if you are dealing with one main creditor (i.e. a Bank!) and they have a casting vote, they will invariably vote No!


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## Brendan Burgess

There were 7 PIAs in April with an average of 40% of secured debt written off. (  range of 0% to 69%)


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## Bronte

Irish Insolvency service is now in desperation to get debtors, really scrapping the barrel here:

_Community groups, St Vincent de Paul and TDs are to be asked to spread the work about the debt-busting service works._ 




I can just see how St Vincent de Paul are going to be able to inform the people they supply with food packages about a 'service' that costs a minimum 5K.


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## DebtCert

Bronte said:


> I can just see how St Vincent de Paul are going to be able to inform the people they supply with food packages about a 'service' that costs a minimum 5K.



It costs €100 to get a Debt Relief Notice. Probably a lot of people on food packages would qualify for those, in fairness.


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## Bronte

The Insolvency service is now so despartate for clients, in a country awash with people insolvent, it is going to bribe people to use it's service:

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/...ency-cases-will-be-named-and-shamed-1.1954939

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/1007/650595-insolvency/

http://www.irishexaminer.com/irelan...ve-fees-to-encourage-more-clients-290344.html

ISI press release

[broken link removed]


Nearly

30% of insolvency cases are being rejected by the banks (versus 5% in the UK)

ISI will pay 750 Euro to PIP's for the clients that are rejected due to 'Irrationality'

They are waiving the application fees for a year.

New word there 'irrationality' no definition of that but I guess that's code for Lorcan being peeved with the banks as they are taking no notice of him and his ISI. 

ISI 'expected' 6000 cases. They have 301 bankruptcies and slightly above that under the other two options, so less than 700 in total I guess. 

ISI is going to name and shame banks

ISI is going to make a more simplfied webite called back on track:

http://backontrack.ie/

They have personal stories on audio on there, but they sound like ads for me, so I presume they are not real people, I would have prefered real cases.


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## Bronte

*ISI Q3 figures*
*180* Protective Certs issued
*352* applications for debt relief notices; debt Settlement arrangements and personal insolvency arrangements
*131 *arrangements approved
*137* bankruptcies 
*33%* number of Personal Insolvency Arrangements rejected by banks 
*€519m* the total debt involved in the approximately 1,200 cases currently with the ISI


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