# Why does a man pay for maternity cover as a non-optional part of health insurance?



## Magic Monkey (22 Aug 2006)

I'm not trying to flame or be provocative, but why am I paying for maternity cover?

If, as the motor insurance market shows, it is acceptable to make risk assessments on the basis of gender and to structure price discriminations accordingly, why am I, a man, paying for maternity cover as a non-optional part of my personal health insurance?

I wouldn't mind paying it in the context of an insurance market that spread costs around more fairly - that's what insurance is for - but am I correct in thinking that the women whose maternity costs are being subsidised by my premium payments are getting cheaper car insurance because they're women and so present a lower risk? (Of course, women who get pregnant don't do it alone, but the maternity costs are claimed against their own insurance and not that of their husband or boyfriend or whatever.) Presumably, women who happily accept lower car insurance costs on the basis of gender-specific risk assessments would have to agree that gender-specific risk assessment in insurance is a good thing?

I have a 0% chance of ever claiming for maternity care: can I have a discount as well?

Discuss...


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## Oilean Beag (22 Aug 2006)

*Re: Why am I paying for maternity cover?*

You do not have zero chance of becoming a father and as you say a woman cannot get pregnant alone. The cost of maternity is spread equally as it takes two to tango and males & females both play a part. The woman just carries the physical part of the task for nine months.


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## Sol28 (22 Aug 2006)

*Re: Why am I paying for maternity cover?*



Magic Monkey said:


> Of course, women who get pregnant don't do it alone, but the maternity costs are claimed against their own insurance


 
Very true - the insurance claim is against the woman's policy. It is highly unlikely I will ever get a woman pregnant. Can i not sign a waiver that if it did happen I pay all the costs. I pay Class S PRSI and two of the few benefits I can claim is Maternity and/or Adoptive benefits, both of which i will never be able to claim for - without both a change in natural and civic laws  !

Positive discrimination is great - Lower car premiums but no increased health premiums.


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## gnashers (22 Aug 2006)

*Re: Why am I paying for maternity cover?*

Is it because our health insurance system is based on community rating so that for example you aren't charged more as you get older even though you are a higher risk (unless you decide to extend your cover). There's more info on health insurance Authority site www.hia.ie


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## Magic Monkey (22 Aug 2006)

*Re: Why am I paying for maternity cover?*

SNB, your response makes some assumptions about my personal life, but more significantly it fails to address the central point of my original post, a careful reading of which would have shown that my concern is with the very spreading of costs to which you refer. You seem to think you're disagreeing with me; in fact, I suspect that you and I may think in very much the same way on this point. I think the current health insurance system is fair (regardless of the likelihood of my ever becoming a father), I just wish the same good principles could be applied to other forms of insurance.


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## whackin (22 Aug 2006)

*Re: Why am I paying for maternity cover?*



SNB said:


> You do not have zero chance of becoming a father and as you say a woman cannot get pregnant alone. The cost of maternity is spread equally as it takes two to tango and males & females both play a part. The woman just carries the physical part of the task for nine months.



You have missed the point. Why should he have to pay cover for insurance he physically can never claim?


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## conor_mc (22 Aug 2006)

*Re: Why am I paying for maternity cover?*



whackin said:


> You have missed the point. Why should he have to pay cover for insurance he physically can never claim?


 
It's like third party liability.... someone else can claim because of your actions...


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## orka (22 Aug 2006)

*Re: Why am I paying for maternity cover?*



whackin said:


> You have missed the point. Why should he have to pay cover for insurance he physically can never claim?


 
Because as someone pointed out above, health insurance in Ireland is community-rated which means that all claims are paid out of a giant pot of money into which everyone contributes equally.  Motor insurance and life insurance and annuity purchases are not community rated and these can and do charge on the basis of gender - motor insurance is generally cheaper for women, annuity purchase is generally cheaper for men, most life insurance is cheaper for women although I think some income protection policies are more expensive for women at certain ages.

In a community rated environment, you should be glad your insurer offers good maternity benefits - these are often used as a marketing ploy to recruit young, fit subscribers who will stay with the insurer long past maternity time and provide substantial cross-subsidies for older, sicker people.


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## darag (23 Aug 2006)

*Re: Why am I paying for maternity cover?*

This argument has been dealt with before.  If you're a reasonably fit male under 50, you're getting a raw deal paying for health insurance in Ireland.  Since I fall into this category, I cancelled my health insurance a few years ago.  I'll take it up again when I hit 50 or if I become generally unwell.  At that point, I'll enjoy massively below cost insurance at the expense of younger people; being compensated somewhat if ill by the gourmet menu in the Blackrock clinic.  "Community rating" is simply an anti-competitive measure.


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## golden mean (23 Aug 2006)

*Re: Why am I paying for maternity cover?*

I don't really understand your point. Women don't get a discount because they have a 0% chance of getting prostate cancer. Maternity cover is not actually worth much.


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## micamaca (23 Aug 2006)

*Re: Why am I paying for maternity cover?*

I think the poster might have been wondering why other insurance like car insurance isn't done on the same community based basis, so that everyone contributes a standard rate to a pot and claims are paid out from there. But correct me if I'm wrong 

I know in other countries, its' the car that is insured not the driver because at the end of the day its' the car that is replaced...not the driver.  Could you imagine insuring yourself to cover your house???? How did insurance companies get away with this one....


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## Sherman (23 Aug 2006)

*Re: Why am I paying for maternity cover?*



micamaca said:


> I know in other countries, its' the car that is insured not the driver because at the end of the day its' the car that is replaced...not the driver. Could you imagine insuring yourself to cover your house???? How did insurance companies get away with this one....


 
I find that strange. A car sitting in a driveway is never going to wrap itself around a lamp post.

The variable factor is almost always the driver.


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## ClubMan (23 Aug 2006)

*Re: Why am I paying for maternity cover?*



Magic Monkey said:


> I'm not trying to flame or be provocative, but why am I paying for maternity cover? If, as the motor insurance market shows, it is acceptable to make risk assessments on the basis of gender and to structure price discriminations accordingly, why am I, a man, paying for maternity cover as a non-optional part of my personal health insurance?


Maybe you hit on the answer yourself. It's not personal health insurance. It's *national social *insurance. As to why it's structured the way it is rather than the way you think it should be then your best bet is to start hassling your elected representatives and campaigning for changes to the system. Good luck with that! My guess is that stuff like maternity and adoptive benefits are covered by mandatory rather than optional payments because of the state's constitutional obligations to families, mothers and children.


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## lff12 (23 Aug 2006)

*Re: Why am I paying for maternity cover?*



Magic Monkey said:


> I'm not trying to flame or be provocative, but why am I paying for maternity cover? If, as the motor insurance market shows, it is acceptable to make risk assessments on the basis of gender and to structure price discriminations accordingly, why am I, a man, paying for maternity cover as a non-optional part of my personal health insurance?


 
Because of the principle of community rating. Lots of people pay for benefits they will never use. Theoretically if only women were expected to pay extra to cover maternity care then it would be unfair on the minority of women like me who don't have (and will probably never have) children. Technically also if you had a wife or partner who did benefit from maternity benefit then you to would be the indirect beneficiary, hence why you pay for it. I agree that on paper it does look unfair as you are paying for a benefit you cannot personally claim on.

Having said that, whats unfair about community rating is not so much the fact that everybody contributes equally regardless of how much they take out of the pot, but the fact that you can suddenly sign up at the age of 50 and get all the benefits without ever having contributed a cent.  I do think the system would work better if those joining after the age of 40 who never contributed were charged a penalty.  The community rating only works if people pay right through life.

Of course the simplest answer here is: do you really need it?  A lot of people don't.


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## Dipole (23 Aug 2006)

*Re: Why am I, a man, paying for maternity cover as a non-optional part my health insu*

I think VIVAS tailor their product for men.  It's the "i" or "me" plan or something.


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## Oilean Beag (24 Aug 2006)

> Because of the principle of community rating. Lots of people pay for benefits they will never use. Theoretically if only women were expected to pay extra to cover maternity care then it would be unfair on the minority of women like me who don't have (and will probably never have) children. Technically also if you had a wife or partner who did benefit from maternity benefit then you to would be the indirect beneficiary, hence why you pay for it. I agree that on paper it does look unfair as you are paying for a benefit you cannot personally claim on.


 
This is the point I was attempting to convey earlier, focusing on the female flipside. It would presumtuous of us to assume a woman will avail of this benefit.  Contribution is necessary to sustain society.


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## SmallPrint (26 Aug 2006)

Oh dear, does that mean we don't get to spend the proceeds of our Life Assurance policies after we die, or our Social Welfare Death Grant...??  Someone else will benefit, but we still pay the premiums like good little consumers, taxpayers and PRSI contributors.

We live in a society where we all contribute to the Common Good.  And who knows, maybe one day the offspring a Maternity Benefit recipient will be the very person to spoon-feed you your warm custard in a nursing home when you're 95?  It's good karma, dude.


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## ajapale (27 Aug 2006)

*Re: Why am I paying for maternity cover?*



ClubMan said:


> It's *national social *insurance.



Maybe the OP could clarify are we talking about PRSI (Pay Related Social Insurance) or perhaps were talking about Voluntary Health Insurance (VHI, BUPA, VIVAS, ESB Providend etc).

I suspect its the latter and as such the question of maternity cover for men comes under the _community rating_ principle. This has been discussed else where.

I had my appendix out as a child, why should my private health premium cover a procedure I will clearly never have to undergo?


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## ClubMan (28 Aug 2006)

Sorry - you are correct. The original query relates to private health insurance and not national/social insurance. My mistake. Community rating is obviously the answer to the original question so.


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