# Should my mortgage be included in AIB tracker review



## Jean84 (5 Jan 2017)

hi there

Background to my situation

Took out mortgage with AIB in April 2006. My offer of mortgage loan under the heading 'applicable interest rate' stated the following ....

2.9% fixed for 1 year after which the rate will revert to the banks variable interest rate, unless borrowers avail of another interest rate then on offer by the bank. (Rates include margin of 0.00%)

Further in on section 3.2 it states that at the end of any fixed rate period, the customer may choose between 3 options.

Option C is conversion to a tracker interest rate mortgage.

So we were on a fixed rate from the start - April 2006 up to April 2007  at which point we were sent options. I have a copy of this letter and the options included a tracker rate and a fixed rate. We decided to fix again for a 5 year period.

In 2012 when our fixed rate period ended we were sent another letter with our options. This time the option of a tracker was not included.

Can anyone advise if I am right in saying that we should have been offered a tracker rate at the end of the fixed period in 2012?

I have emailed AIB and asked them if my mortgage is included  in the current review and await a response from them.

Any advice is appreciated.

I tried to attach images of the wording but Unable for some reason.


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## peemac (5 Jan 2017)

I can't see a case based on your post.

The initial mortgage was a one year fixed with three options at end of that period. 


In 2007 you were given the three options as stated and you chose the 5 year fixed rate. 

Unless the terms of the 5 year fixed says you would have option of tracker at end of that period,  you have no case as the original mortgage was not a tracker.


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## Jean84 (5 Jan 2017)

Thanks peemac for your response. Definitely something to consider.

My mortgage contract stated that at the end of a fixed period I would be given the 3 options. It didn't state that this would only happen once and then I would lose the opportunity to avail of option c( the tracker option) in future. 

I believe that if that was the case then they should have warned me of the implications of fixing when they sent out my options in 2007 and again in 2012. 

I feel that they have broken the contract as after a fixed period they have not offered me the options as they stated they would in the mortgage contract.


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## Tedtalk (6 Jan 2017)

Under the consumer protection code, am I not correct in saying that the options available on the day you fixed your mortgage, should be available on expiry? In light of the scale of the tracker examination now and the potential fines, the banks will struggle to defend even the most borderline of cases.


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## Balfour (6 Jan 2017)

Hi Jean 84

Did your original mortgage contract state an actual tracker rate


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## Lone Star (6 Jan 2017)

Home Loan Conditions: "Our rate of interest and APR are variable. Rates of interest are altered in response to market conditions and may change at any time without prior notice and immediate effect" - Question is: on a variable home loan (not a tracker) is there a limit on what interest rate they charge? if they are to alter in response to market conditions - what are the bank's justification for going say 2 or 3 % above the ECB rate?


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## Monbretia (6 Jan 2017)

No limit other than what competition will dictate, if bank A goes 3% over ECB and banks B, C, D only go 1% then bank A won't get the business.


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## Jean84 (7 Jan 2017)

In section 3.64 of my contract it states the tracker rate will be made of 2 parts

(A) the ecb rate and
(B) the tracker margin as stated in part 1 of the particulars of the mortgage loan

In part 1 it states the margin is 0.00%

So I take it that if they were offering me a tracker rate it would have to be whatever the ecb rate is?


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## peemac (7 Jan 2017)

I would guess that as the original mortgage was not a tracker product, then no rate above ecb is stated (or 0%).

I think you are clutching at straws here. The tracker issue is those who took out a tracker and their mortgage contract specifically states that the rate applying was a variable rate at ECB rate plus a fixed % for the life of the loan. They then were encouraged to come off that rate onto a "special fixed rate offer" with small print being written in such a way that the banks thought they did not have to return them to trackers when the fixed rate ended.

As your mortgage was not a tracker initially and was never on a tracker rate, I can't see any issue.


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## Lightening (7 Jan 2017)

peemac said:


> I would guess that as the original mortgage was not a tracker product, then no rate above ecb is stated (or 0%).
> 
> I think you are clutching at straws here. The tracker issue is those who took out a tracker and their mortgage contract specifically states that the rate applying was a variable rate at ECB rate plus a fixed % for the life of the loan. They then were encouraged to come off that rate onto a "special fixed rate offer" with small print being written in such a way that the banks thought they did not have to return them to trackers when the fixed rate ended.
> 
> As your mortgage was not a tracker initially and was never on a tracker rate, I can't see any issue.


Peemac, Its not so black and white.  that may be your case.


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## Balfour (7 Jan 2017)

Peemac

Based on your threads above, Please read the following thread

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/threads/aib-restoring-my-tracker-but-at-3-67.199391/

Hi Jean,

In my opinion, you have a very strong case, if you haven't already read the above thread, I think you should also

Regards


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## Wardy7 (7 Jan 2017)

peemac said:


> As your mortgage was not a tracker initially and was never on a tracker rate, I can't see any issue.



This is incorrect. My mortgage contract with PTSB commenced with a 2 year fixed rate. My contract stated that on expiry, we would be given tracker. I have got mine back.


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## Jean84 (25 Jan 2017)

Hi there

So I have received an update from AIB....the letter is a few pages long but in short I think they are stating that when I came off my fixed rate in 2012 tracker mortgage was not a product and therefore it was not given as an option. But they say 'in cognisance of my case they are now offering me a tracker rate of Ecb plus 3.67%!!! (I'm currently on a variable of 3.4%). 

The letter is pretty wordy and confusing to say the least. I see a similar thread that others have got this letter. Not sure what to do next. They advised that it was their final response and I could refer to FSO. 

Also advised that there is a seperate central bank review and they would be in touch again when the review is complete.

Any advice is greatly appreciated


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## Neverever (25 Jan 2017)

peemac said:


> I would guess that as the original mortgage was not a tracker product, then no rate above ecb is stated (or 0%).
> 
> I think you are clutching at straws here. The tracker issue is those who took out a tracker and their mortgage contract specifically states that the rate applying was a variable rate at ECB rate plus a fixed % for the life of the loan. They then were encouraged to come off that rate onto a "special fixed rate offer" with small print being written in such a way that the banks thought they did not have to return them to trackers when the fixed rate ended.
> 
> As your mortgage was not a tracker initially and was never on a tracker rate, I can't see any issue.


 Peemac, definetly not the case. Option for tracker is in the letter of offer, if at any stage customer is prevented from exercising that offer then their contractual rights are not being honoured. The scenario you gave is just one of the scenarios, albeit probably the first and most well known, there are plenty of other scenarios where customers were effected. OP should not accept anything less their contractual rights


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## Jean84 (26 Jan 2017)

Thanks for responses. I am going to respond to AIB with further questions before submitting my complaint to FSO. Would love to hear from anyone else in similar situation who has been or is gong through this process.


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## Neverever (26 Jan 2017)

Hi jean84. You maybe timed barred with the FSO. There is a statatory limitation period if 5 or 6 years. Meaning if issue is older than that they can't investigate. 

Hopefully you had a fixed rate expire within thus time frame that you can use.

If not, part of the punishment the central bank put upon springboard  was they were not allowed to envoke the statatory limitation for fso complaint, meaning fso could investigate older complaints without springboard stopping them. Hopefully same is meated out to all lenders.

Lastly the central bank exam should have far more reaching powers than the ombudsman and if all parties play by the rules it is thus mechanism that should restore your contractual rights. In saying that submitting with the FSO will offer security blanket incase the cv review is not fair. I would not hang around waiting reply from AIB I did and as a result I was initially time barred. Would appear they purposefully delayed issuing and comment or communication to me til I went over the time limit with FSO.you don't need a definitive answer from AIB to open up an FSO complaint, that will come part of the FSO case. I learned that the hard way


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## Jean84 (26 Jan 2017)

Thanks neverever. I came out of fixed rate in April 2012 so I'm just under the timeframe. I will definitely open an FSO complaint so. They are being so sneaky, it's unbelievable. And the letter they wrote to me is 3 pages of rubbish to be honest!! I think they have set out to try and confuse customers.


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## Balfour (26 Jan 2017)

Guys

 I have being fighting with the Bank since 2013, the following is the list of tracker rates they have offered since then.

Letter from AIB dated the 12.12.2013 offering me the 1st tracker rate of 4.91%
Letter from AIB dated the 24.07.2015 offering me the 2nd tracker rate of 3.97%
Letter from AIB dated the 12.07.2016 offering me the 3rd tracker rate of 3.67% (latest letter)
Who knows where this is going, I rang up the bank yesterday and they told me that my mortgage account was not part of Tracker Review.

They also said that that I could go to the FSO but the FSO is holding off to see what the outcome of the tracker review is.......it goes on and on....


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## Neverever (26 Jan 2017)

Hi Balfour, Did they ever give you a reason or a calculation basis to support the tracker margin rates? if so why are they changing?

Did you initially go on a fixed rate at draw down of mortgage and then look to convert to a tracker? Or were you on tracker, then fixed and then wanted to go back to tracker

Did you bring up
Part 4 section 3.6.3 which on my offer this clearly states the only circumstance AIB are allowed to adjust the margin.

On mine it states "The Bank may adjust the Tracker Margin upwards if the Valuation Report values the property at less than the Property Price/Estimate shown on the particulars of Offer of Mortgage Loan. The Bank will notify the customer in writing of the new tracker Margin" There is no other condition that allows AIB to adjust the margin.

No condition anywhere that states offer of tracker or the margin on the tracker is subject to market conditions being suitable to AIB or anything like that.


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## Neverever (26 Jan 2017)

I have AIB press releases from 2007 and 2008  saved, I tried to upload them here yesterday however due to restriction on my user account I could not. These clearly show when and from whom tracker mortgages were being removed and that "prevailing" rates in place. Maybe when I am home I will be able to post these up. if no margin clearly stated on your Letter Of Offer, it is the margin offerings on these press released that should be used to establish your margin.

Use part 1 of your Letter Of Offer to establish your Loan to Value and then look at press release to see what is the margin for the  relevant LTV bracket.

Unless AIB offered you a tracker in between the last press release which was 01st Feb 2007 and the point you wanted to convert to tracker and refused then it is this press release that is your prevailing margin rate.


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## peemac (27 Jan 2017)

Neverever said:


> Peemac, definetly not the case. Option for tracker is in the letter of offer, if at any stage customer is prevented from exercising that offer then their contractual rights are not being honoured. The scenario you gave is just one of the scenarios, albeit probably the first and most well known, there are plenty of other scenarios where customers were effected. OP should not accept anything less their contractual rights


Just realised I read it wrong - if document clearly says "at end of ANY fixed rate period, three options will be given"  then a tracker must be offered but in absence of anything with a specific rate, its doubtful a rate under 3.67 will be offered. 

Op takes mortgage at one year fixed rate with three options offered at end of fixed rate in 2007.

Op takes 5 year fixed rate.

Its this document that may prove most important - did it give a specific tracker rate?

If not, then Aib are possibly fine saying "ok, we'll give you option of tracker, rate is 3.67% above ecb"

Issue for op is if no margin over ecb for the tracker option is ever stated in any documents it will be nigh on impossible to argue.

AIB are saying that tracker rate in 2012 was 3.67, so unfortunately that probably stands.

I'd forget ombudsman - they backed the banks on many of the now returned trackers.

Talk to Padraic Kissane - Kissane financial advisors for an informed and independent view.


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## Ninibopp (8 Dec 2017)

Jean84, have you made any progress with your case? I am in the same predicament. I spoke a gentleman at Padraic Kissane's office today who says this prevailing rate of 3.67% is a nonsense as trackers are only ever made up of a fixed margin plus the rate that tracks the ecb. The margin should be the one available at drawdown probably around 1.1%. He maintains that tracker mortgages cannot have two variable elements. He was so helpful and gave me far more info than AIB. He did say however that this tracker review is nowhere near finished. Only the very straight forward cases will be sorted by year end. Other cohorts will have to hold off until 2018.


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## Skippy1 (4 Jan 2018)

@Jean84 @Ninibopp @Neverever or others in similar situation - I'm looking for some help re. correspondence from AIB after end of first fixed term, before Oct 2008. 

Have 3.2c option in contract re tracker. Drew down in mid 2006 on fixed new business, got rates letter 2 weeks before roll over with tracker option in 2017. On holidays and missed the letter. 

Did you receive an earlier letter approx 1 month before your first fixed term roll off reminding you of choices available?

I think (95% sure) I got another letter send 4/5 weeks before roll over, but this was sent to my old address in error by bank. By time I received was too late. Rang AIB at time and they said was my fault and option would be available after next fixed term. Looking at contract again, was AIB error and obviously should have fought at time. 

Would be greatly appreciated if anyone could advise if received just one letter (sample of rates) or two (1. advance reminder of options and 2. sample of rates).


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## tommygirl (5 Jan 2018)

My first year fixed rate with AIB finished in May 2007. I only received one letter about 10 days before expiry outlining rate options to sign and return (included tracker options). Did you select another fixed rate? You say that they advised option would be available after next fixed term?
You could submit a Subject Access Request for documentation but in my recent experience not all documents were sent and all mention of tracker was redacted.
Hope this helps.


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