# Is Rip Off Ireland dead now that we've raced to the bottom?



## Purple (19 May 2012)

For the last 10 years we've been hearing about how this, that and the other was a rip off and sure "That's rip off Ireland" for ye'! 
Everyone from tradespeople to bankers, lawyers, doctors, publicans, shop owners and insurance companies were at it all the time. We went for over a decade without one person in this country getting value for money for anything!
We've all been hearing that a litre of beer is 2 cents in Portugal and you could go to Spain and live like a king for 2 weeks by selling the fluff from your belly button.
And yet, back at the ranch, any talk of reducing costs was seen as yet another example of the Fat Cats screwing the "Wurkers" and continuing their never-ending race to the bottom. The notion that high wages caused high prices seemed to be so abstract and nonsensical that it flew in the face of common sense. How could the two be linked? How could there be a connection between input costs and cost of production/supply? How could available money influence price when demand outstripped supply? These things were nonsense!

Thankfully the current recession/depression/disaster has resulted in a greater level of understanding of basic economics by a greater proportion of the population so more people understand that prices are a result of demand and input costs and so higher wages result in higher costs. Therefore some flocculent comrade on the Public Sector Broadcaster is now less likely to be greeted with vacuous nods of the head when he talks about racing to the bottom etc.

I just thought I’d share this one bright point in this rather depressing and benighted period of our country's history.


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## micmclo (19 May 2012)

When you are planning your self build and a brickie thinks it's perfectly normal to quote you a euro per brick and wants a wage for his helper too then you know it's too far gone 

Young lads quitting school at 16 and pulling up to several hundred a week labouring and thinking good times will last forever.



I thought a self build would be a cheaper option.
It was but the wages and quotes were outrageous. As for the union rates for electricians! More power to the union but I'm not paying those rates, I can get someone else
And if you found someone good you knew they might drop your self build to go for the bigger jobs on the estates.


Good for them for earning good money but the same people will be cursing the government for not making it last forever.
We needed a bottomless pit of money to keep that going, teenagers pulling more then more graduates and professionals.
Yeah it's tough work but so is farming and they never earned those rates


Sorry but my sympathy for unemployed builders and tradesmen is very limited.
And the era of the no show tradesmen lives on

People earned good money but that money was borrowed from mortgages, someone always pays


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## DrMoriarty (19 May 2012)

I was recently looking around for a short-term rental in June for visiting friends and found a 2-bed apartment to sleep 3, advertised on Daft.ie at €75/week per person per room over the summer months. I thought this might suit the couple and their 13-year-old child so I emailed the owner (who'd only provided a first name) to enquire about availability for a fortnight, figuring 3 x 75 x 2 weeks = €450 approx.

The guy turned out to be a local Labour councillor, who replied from his iPhone to offer me the apartment for those two weeks for... €1,200! 

I'd find it less laughable if the same guy's blog didn't have as his latest post (in December 2010) a long diatribe about how the FF gubbermint "are totally disconnected from the reality of how people are trying to get by day by day"...


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## oldnick (19 May 2012)

Oh dear, Purple, I don't mean to offend your wife but I reckon the medical profession are still continuing the great Irish rip-off game. 

Over 200 for a quick visit to a consultant - over 50 euros for an even quicker chat with a GP. I'm sure most reading this will say they've paid even more.

The medicos are about the only people that are making the same as five years ago. Indeed, looking at various old invoices and comparing them with recent visits, I'm guessing one is paying 20% more on average per consultant and GP visit.

Any reason for this increase? Am only asking as you've brought up the subject and your wife's a medical doctor.


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## Sue Ellen (19 May 2012)

€220 for 1st visit to consultant and €150 for follow-on visits.  This same consultant because was 'on call' night before was flying through the patients (their words).  They have also been too busy to get back with blood results despite numerous requests to do so.

G.P. tried charging a relative €30 to sign a passport form for child's passport which Gardai sign free of charge.  Same G.P. also insisting despite their requests that family use the practice nurse for bloods @ €30 each rather than allowing them to go to the bloods clinic in the local hospital.


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## The_Banker (20 May 2012)

Purple said:


> For the last 10 years we've been hearing about how this, that and the other was a rip off and sure "That's rip off Ireland" for ye'!
> 
> Everyone from tradespeople to bankers, lawyers, doctors, publicans, shop owners and insurance companies were at it all the time. We went for over a decade without one person in this country getting value for money for anything!
> *
> ...




Link?


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## Purple (20 May 2012)

The_Banker said:


> Link?



The two countries are beside each other ans share many cultural similarities.


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## Purple (20 May 2012)

oldnick said:


> Oh dear, Purple, I don't mean to offend your wife but I reckon the medical profession are still continuing the great Irish rip-off game.
> 
> Over 200 for a quick visit to a consultant - over 50 euros for an even quicker chat with a GP. I'm sure most reading this will say they've paid even more.
> 
> ...


I agree, and try being the only GP in the area that doesn't put up their fees when everyone else does. 
That's not the worst bit; the average payment per GP visit for private patients is €50. The average for Public Patients is €65. GP's will tell you otherwise but when you add up all the payments they get and divide it by the number of consultations they do it comes out at €65. Why is the state paying a 30% premium to people operating in a protected sector?


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## The_Banker (20 May 2012)

Purple said:


> The two countries are beside each other ans share many cultural similarities.



No, I didn't think you could provide a link.


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## ajapale (20 May 2012)

Any good?

pelusa del ombligo

aj


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## Chris (21 May 2012)

I agree with the point you are trying to make about the "rip-off" culture and that it was always portrayed in a way that evil entrepreneurs and corporations were charging us more than was fair. Nobody ever dealt with the fact, as you already mentioned, that input costs were going up at the same time. And even less people pointed to the fact that money supply was directly related to price increases. While the supply of money grew throughout Europe it grew a lot faster in Ireland during the artificial boom years. This was perfectly reflected by a much higher rate of CPI in Iteland than the Euro average. And in the last 4 years the exact inverse has become apparent where a drop in money supply in Ireland has resulted in 2 years of negative CPI.


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## Firefly (21 May 2012)

ajapale said:


> Any good?
> 
> pelusa del ombligo
> 
> aj


 
Superb!!


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## Firefly (21 May 2012)

Chris said:


> While the supply of money grew throughout Europe it grew a lot faster in Ireland during the artificial boom years.


 
And we had loads of jobs



Chris said:


> And in the last 4 years the exact inverse has become apparent where a drop in money supply in Ireland has resulted in 2 years of negative CPI.


 
And we've no jobs now....so...should we just start printing more money?


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## cork (22 May 2012)

It is very noticeable in some of the British stores when they display sterling prices.

Only for Aldi/Lidl - I think our supermarkets would have higher prices today.


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## micmclo (22 May 2012)

November 2008, country just about to head downhill and the taxi regulator puts up the price of fares


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## dereko1969 (22 May 2012)

micmclo said:


> November 2008, country just about to head downhill and the taxi regulator puts up the price of fares


 
You expect the Taxi Regulator to have had the foresight that few others did? 

The Taxi industry had been pushing for years for the prices to be increased.

Great comment Nostradamus.


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## micmclo (22 May 2012)

Well you're angry over something today


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## dereko1969 (22 May 2012)

Not angry, just fed up with stupid comments.


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## Protocol (22 May 2012)

I would suggest that many lab costs in Irl were not out of line.

What grew too fast were non-labour costs, like:

commercial rents
rates
legal fees
medical fees
insurance costs
Govt administered fees, e.g. waste / water, etc.

I will agree that in the PS, wages grew too fast (i.e. benchmarking), and also that wages in the trades grew too fast.

But, by now, overall, Irish labour costs are not out of line.


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## Protocol (22 May 2012)

Here are the most recent lab costs data from Eurostat:

[broken link removed]

We are just below the EA average, mid-table I would say.

Lab costs have been flat at 27.40 ph since 2008, more or less.


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## Protocol (22 May 2012)

Even though our lab costs are now slightly below the EA average, consumer prices here are 20% above the EU27 average in 2010.

See here:

[broken link removed]


*So if overall average lab costs aren't out of line with the eurozone, yet consumer prices are still too high, what's causing the excessive prices??*

*Indirect taxes?*  Our VAT was 21% until recently, now 23%, but across the EU many VAT rates have also risen.  We are not an outlier here.

*Excise*?  Only applies to alcohol, tobacco, car fuels and cars. This does help explain the higher price of cars.  Note: our fuel taxes are by no means the highest.

*Overheads / non-wage costs??*  This is my point, higher overheads mean gross profit margins must be higher here than abroad.  Rents were way too high, and still are for tenants in UORR leases.


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## micmclo (22 May 2012)

dereko1969 said:


> Great comment Nostradamus.





dereko1969 said:


> just fed up with stupid comments.




Was well on its way by late 2008


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## Chris (23 May 2012)

Firefly said:


> And we had loads of jobs
> 
> 
> 
> And we've no jobs now....so...should we just start printing more money?


Hehe, actually that's exactly what the ECB is doing.




Protocol said:


> Even though our lab costs are now slightly below the EA average, consumer prices here are 20% above the EU27 average in 2010.
> 
> See here:
> 
> ...



Prices rise because of monetary inflation. The reason prices have been going up again is because prices for raw materials have been going up significantly, especially energy related. Inflation is always and everywhere a monetary phenomenon.


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## ajapale (23 May 2012)

Chris said:


> ... no etary inflation. ..



Whats no-etary inflation?


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## Firefly (23 May 2012)

ajapale said:


> Whats no-etary inflation?


 
I presume that's "monetary inflation".


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## cork (24 May 2012)

What get me is prices of some things here compared to abroad.

eg. paracedemol.

On the other side - own brands from ALDI and LIDL are pretty good quality.

At one time in Ireland - some own brands were of various quality.


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## Chris (30 May 2012)

ajapale said:


> Whats no-etary inflation?


Damn iPhone autocorrect, as Firefly already said it should say monetry inflation.



cork said:


> What get me is prices of some things here compared to abroad.
> 
> eg. paracedemol.



I think such phenomena have mentioned before, but here is one explanation.
A friend of mine suffers from Asthma and his inhaler costs about €16. In Spain he was able to get the exact same one for €5 while on holidays there. When he asked his pharmacist back home about this he replied that he was not allowed to source his medication from the same place as Spanish pharmacies do, he is strictly regulated where he can buy from. He couldn't even buy directly from a Spanish pharmacy at €5 and sell it for €7. When it comes to the cost of medication in this country the blame rests with government.


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## bullbars (30 May 2012)

Chris said:


> When he asked his pharmacist back home about this he replied that he was not allowed to source his medication from the same place as Spanish pharmacies do, he is strictly regulated where he can buy from. He couldn't even buy directly from a Spanish pharmacy at €5 and sell it for €7. When it comes to the cost of medication in this country the blame rests with government.


 
Just a thought but, is this a good or a bad thing? Especially where medication is concerned is it not better that prime source vendors are indentified? Tracebility / accountability factors??


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## Latrade (30 May 2012)

bullbars said:


> Just a thought but, is this a good or a bad thing? Especially where medication is concerned is it not better that prime source vendors are indentified? Tracebility / accountability factors??


 
There's actually pretty recent evidence that the current stance might have benefits along what you've said. The rise of fake medication isn't just an online or email spam issue, it's even leaking into "official" supply chains in the UK and Europe. It does seem to be those with a more open sourcing supply chain that are affected. I can't remember the exact stat, but it's a worryingly significant percentage of medications supplied through pharmacists in the UK is thought to be counterfeit. I'm not aware of similar levels or such as significant a problem here in Ireland.


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## Chris (30 May 2012)

How about letting the consumer decide? Since my friend found out about the price of the inhaler in Spain he gets friends and family to bring some back whenever they go and so far has not had a problem in over four years of doing this.

If people are more comfortable paying a higher price for a possible lower chance of encountering a fake then let them do so. Everybody shouldn't be punished with higher prices because some people have a concern.


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