# NPPR €200 charge: How does the Govt/LA propose to track down & tackle defaulters?



## tosullivan (22 Jun 2010)

Deadline for this is 30 June.  After that I'm told penalties apply if its not paid.  Does anyone know how the govt is tracking down people with 2nd homes to get them to pay up?


----------



## Hans (22 Jun 2010)

I dont think they have to track them down as if you dont pay you are clocking up Penalties and when you go to sell your house you will have a large bill to pay when the solicitor does his searches.


----------



## Ceist Beag (22 Jun 2010)

We got a letter from the local council pointing out this charge (as we're registered with the PTRB I guess they got the details from there) but as Hans said, not sure they will be chasing anyone who hasn't paid until such time as you go to sell the house.


----------



## helllohello (22 Jun 2010)

i paid it last week and i see that the cheques have been cashed already.  last time it was 3 months before cheques were cashed.


----------



## Jimmyjoe (22 Jun 2010)

> Deadline for this is 30 June. After that I'm told penalties apply if its not paid. Does anyone know how the govt is tracking down people with 2nd homes to get them to pay up?


 
This is the second year of the charge, so if you paid it last year, they're waiting for you to pay it this year!

Monies are raised for local authorities, and follow up by the local authorities is region specific!  I know that Meath CC will text you to remind you, whereas Monaghan CC don't make contact at all...


----------



## tosullivan (23 Jun 2010)

i didn't pay it last year so I'm prob gonna get hit for penalties on that aswell...GREAT...!!


----------



## Ceist Beag (23 Jun 2010)

.....and so you should. Why didn't you pay it?


----------



## tosullivan (23 Jun 2010)

.......forgot totally about it.  Dont think there was any publicity or any notification last year.  Luckily I heard it on  the radio last few days otherwise I wouldn't have got in this time either. I think I heard it was talked about coming in a couple of yrs ago but never thought twice about it after that

The local co. co never sent out any info or reminders to my house or the other house


----------



## dave28 (23 Jun 2010)

What about a house willed to sons & daughters which is being sold & proceeds divvied up ..... it doesnt technically belong to the indivual members of the family , would fees be payable in this instance ?


----------



## jackswift (23 Jun 2010)

Hans said:


> I dont think they have to track them down as if you dont pay you are clocking up Penalties and when you go to sell your house you will have a large bill to pay when the solicitor does his searches.


 Unless the house wasn't livable, that way you only pay if you make the house livable.


----------



## Eithneangela (23 Jun 2010)

Sorry, OP, but the tax on NPPR has been widely communicated in every media source - newpapers, radio, TV, Joe Duffy (The Oracle)...can't plead ignorance on this.  Just wait for the next Budget - looks like we'll be paying Property Tax on primary residence - so, make sure you keep abreast of the Irish News.


----------



## tosullivan (23 Jun 2010)

maybe it was but I don't read the papers...had a bad year after my mam died and really everything took 2nd fiddle so to be honest it hadn't even registered with me


----------



## Eithneangela (23 Jun 2010)

Having last my Mam in the last year, I totally empathise with you.  Unfortunately, the State, Department of Finance and Revenue Commissioners do not feel likewise - so start reading the news again, listen to the radio (I like RTE1 because there's a good mix of News and Chat Shows during the day) and pay attention to news which might affect you and yours.  I know it's difficult at times, and I hope that you get your stuff sorted.  Maybe write to the NPPR people and explain that through to family circumstances a lot of day-to-day stuff fell through a large hole, and you're catching up now.  You might just get a sympathetic Civil Servant to respond to you.


----------



## tosullivan (23 Jun 2010)

I have the form to print out tomorrow.  I plan to pay the €400 for this year and last and write a letter with it explaining my circumstances...thanks


----------



## Eithneangela (23 Jun 2010)

Good luck with that. It's obvious that you are willing to pay, just that circumstances didn't cater for it.  I wish you well.


----------



## gm88 (23 Jun 2010)

dave28 said:


> What about a house willed to sons & daughters which is being sold & proceeds divvied up ..... it doesnt technically belong to the indivual members of the family , would fees be payable in this instance ?


 

When the house is being sold on as part of the parent's estate, proof that the NPPR has been paid is requested by the purchaser's solicitor.  It is done as part of the searches.


----------



## tosullivan (24 Jun 2010)

I realise this is another stealth tax but when it was brought in what was the reasoning behind it?


----------



## bonzos (25 Jun 2010)

Just out of interest i inhertied a house that has been unused for the past 10 years...it has no heatin(just open fire),no kitchen and is in a very poor condition!it would cost a fortune bring it to any fit state to be lived in,i would go as far as to say it would be cheaper to knock than repair it.do i have to pay i this tax?


----------



## Moral Ethos (25 Jun 2010)

How do they decide who to charge this tax to?


----------



## T McGibney (25 Jun 2010)

tosullivan said:


> i realise tis is another stealth tax but when it was brought in what was the reasoning behind it?



To finance local authorities, most of which had depended on development levies for a large proportion of their income in recent years.


----------



## z104 (25 Jun 2010)

I got a text message telling me it was due.


----------



## JoeB (25 Jun 2010)

It's not a second home tax, it's a non principle private residence tax... so if you only own one home, or part of a home, you can still be liable. For example, if you own one home and rent it out, and you yourself rent somewhere else, then you are liable and must pay.

If the house is owned by an estate before probate is granted I don't believe the 200 is owed, as there is no owner under the terms of the charge.

If the house is unfit to live in the charge doesn't apply, but disconnected water or electricity, or no kitchen doesn't make it unfit for habitation... basically it must have no roof or windows.

Cheers so


----------



## Pat Bateman (26 Jun 2010)

bonzos said:


> Just out of interest i inhertied a house that has been unused for the past 10 years...it has no heatin(just open fire),no kitchen and is in a very poor condition!it would cost a fortune bring it to any fit state to be lived in,i would go as far as to say it would be cheaper to knock than repair it.do i have to pay i this tax?


 
I don't believe you'll have to on the basis that the property isn't habitable.


----------



## JoeB (26 Jun 2010)

I would have thought that the house described above would be liable, it simply seems  to be in terrible condition, rather than being un-inhabitable, I'd imagine that people do live in houses in a similar state.

The only qualifying issue might be the lack of heating, but I wouldn't expect so to be honest, not everyone has central heating... or possibly excessive damp if it exists... You really need to check with the local authority. If you have damp, and it is the dangerous to health kind then you'd be ok... houses in the US are knocked down if infected with a particular type of fungus or mould, as repair seems not to be an option.


----------



## Moral Ethos (26 Jun 2010)

Who makes the determinations on matters like these. Also how are the lists of liable houses compiled?


----------



## Pat Bateman (27 Jun 2010)

JoeBallantin said:


> I would have thought that the house described above would be liable, it simply seems to be in terrible condition, rather than being un-inhabitable, I'd imagine that people do live in houses in a similar state.
> 
> The only qualifying issue might be the lack of heating, but I wouldn't expect so to be honest, not everyone has central heating... or possibly excessive damp if it exists... You really need to check with the local authority. If you have damp, and it is the dangerous to health kind then you'd be ok... houses in the US are knocked down if infected with a particular type of fungus or mould, as repair seems not to be an option.


 
There's no kitchen in the house...in my view that suggests that it's uninhabitable.

The fact that it hasn't been lived in for ten years is also helpful.


----------



## tosullivan (27 Jun 2010)

I've had no water switched on in my place since Jan after the burst pipe.  In my mind it's uninhabitable aswell


----------



## Pat Bateman (27 Jun 2010)

tosullivan said:


> I've had no water switched on in my place since Jan after the burst pipe. In my mind it's uninhabitable aswell


 
The legislation refers to property "used or suitable for use as a dwelling".

If it was me, I'd argue that a property with no kitchen or no running water is not "suitable for use as a dwelling".


----------



## sadie (28 Jun 2010)

So if I have a second home and I can't get tenants for example - I simply get the electricity and water switched off, and then claim it's inhabitiable.

It's ingenious, lads. No wonder Revenue can't track you guys down. You are simply too clever for them.


----------



## Nige (28 Jun 2010)

some local authorities seem to give some guidance on this point. For example, Longford co co have a "derelict building" declaration (http://www.longfordcoco.ie/uploaded...airs/Forms/NPPR/NPPR(Derelict Properties).doc) and other county councils mention on their sites the "structure of the building".

The legislation offers no guidance. 

I would note though, that if a person is planning on renovating a particular uninhabited building in the near future, it may be short-sighted to make a case now that it is derelict, as this can impact on the planning permission requirements in the future.


----------



## ajapale (29 Jun 2010)

Seperate question moved to : NPPR: Have a house which is let in three units.

Please keep this thread to discuss investigation and enforcement aspects of the NPPR charge.


----------



## Pat Bateman (29 Jun 2010)

sadie said:


> So if I have a second home and I can't get tenants for example - I simply get the electricity and water switched off, and then claim it's inhabitiable.
> 
> It's ingenious, lads. No wonder Revenue can't track you guys down. You are simply too clever for them.


 
If you bothered to read the post(s) properly, you'd know that in Tosullivan's case there's no water because of a burst pipe (i.e. it wasn't just a case of "switching off the water").

You'd also know that in Bonzo's case there's no kitchen, no heating and the property has been unlived in for 10 years. And per Bonzo "it would cost a fortune to bring it to any fit state to live in".

Guidelines are merely that...the legislation is the key. It refers to property "used or suitable for use as a dwelling". That's the test, and in certain cases it may be up to the Courts to decide.

And by the way, Revenue have nothing to do with the NPPR charge. It's paid to and administered by the relevant local authority.


----------



## tosullivan (29 Jun 2010)

Pat Bateman said:


> The legislation refers to property "used or suitable for use as a dwelling".
> 
> If it was me, I'd argue that a property with no kitchen or no running water is not "suitable for use as a dwelling".


 theres plenty running water...I just chose to knock it off as it was going everywhere...


----------



## Lobby (30 Jun 2010)

In relation to the "no kitchen" issue, I believe a certain telecommunications billionaire used that very point to argue that a house without a kitchen is not a "home" and thus was exempt from paying tax (not the NPPR tax however), essentially he couldn't be considered to be residing there if it wasn't a home.

"After the sale of Esat he saved €55m in taxes by moving from Dublin to the Portuguese resort Quinta Do Lago, which he owns and which remains his address. 
However, in keeping with his new-found status he had also purchased a €7m four-storey mansion on Raglan Road in Dublin 4. The Revenue Commissioners claimed this was his 'principal residence' for tax purposes. It was only after he proved he couldn't live there because it didn't have a kitchen that they relented."

Taken from:

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/obrien-makes-money-and-loses-friends-471700.html

I'm sure there's court documentation to back this up.


----------



## aamstudent (30 Jun 2010)

Presumably, few of the the big-name, cash-strapped landlords are paying this tax.  Is it falling on the compliant little people only?
I know the theory is that the tax gets caught on sale - but won't that will just catch the banks not the defaulting property owner.


----------



## cmsl (1 Jul 2010)

NPPR & building under construction?
Hi I'm currently living in a property which is my principle residence and in the process of building a house which will become my main residence. The new build is on a go slow as I am trying to save some money to complete the next job rather than drawing down any more from mortgage. House is plastered but there is no ESB/ water connected, no kitchen flooring etc.. Am I exempt from this tax NPPr tax?


----------

