# €3Billion for AIB - coming from the pension reserve fund?



## z107 (30 Sep 2010)

Does anyone know where the €3Billion for AIB is coming from?
Are they raiding our pensions for it?

45:00 minutes in.


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## aristotle (30 Sep 2010)

Yep, like all of the previous €billions...


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## Towger (30 Sep 2010)

Pension fund.
No. The pension fund only ever had enough to cover some of the cost of the Public Sector pension schemes. Even if the fund was not raided the PS pensions are another time bomb waiting to happen, as the number of Public Sector employees has risen dramatically since it was started from the Eircom privatisation etc. If you want a pension you are better off providing one for your self, long term many people will be happy for the investment properties, which they now see as a mill stone around their neck.


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## z107 (30 Sep 2010)

What's happening to my PRSI contributions? - where are they ending up?


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## aristotle (30 Sep 2010)

Towger said:


> long term many people will be happy for the investment properties, which they now see as a mill stone around their neck.


 

...assuming property prices recover and you don't end up paying, for example, 500k in interest & capital over 20 years in return for a 100k property at the end of it....


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## Frank (30 Sep 2010)

29300 million for for Anglo 

For the love of god

Maybe up 35 thousand million.......

WTF

Who has been hung drawn and qaurtered????

Who has even had a slap on the wrist?????

Both heads of AIB on the way out, will there huge golden handshakes for them?????


35 thousand million, feel so guilty now about trying to buy a place to live apparently all to do with our own greed right.


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## Sunny (30 Sep 2010)

umop3p!sdn said:


> What's happening to my PRSI contributions? - where are they ending up?


 
Where they always ended up.


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## z107 (30 Sep 2010)

Which is where?

I just want to know if it's my PRSI contributions, meant for my state pension, that is being given to AIB.


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## dahamsta (30 Sep 2010)

AIB _are _the experts at using pension funds inappropriately...


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## Sunny (30 Sep 2010)

umop3p!sdn said:


> Which is where?
> 
> I just want to know if it's my PRSI contributions, meant for my state pension, that is being given to AIB.


 
No they are not. The PRSI fund is used to pay social welfare and state pensions as always. The National Pensions Reserve Fund is being used for AIB.


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## DerKaiser (30 Sep 2010)

umop3p!sdn said:


> Which is where?
> 
> I just want to know if it's my PRSI contributions, meant for my state pension, that is being given to AIB.


 
Would that be any worse than your income taxes being given to them?

Before you jump in, the answer is no, as there is no real segregation of PRSI contributions from regular income taxation receipts.

There are no ringfenced pots of money just general receipts and general outgoings.

They should stop the charade that payment of health levies, income levies and PRSI is any different from an income tax.

In addition the Nation Pensions Reserve is no different from the excess money borrowed to fund us through until next year, in a matter of months we will see that these funds will be indiscriminately used to pay for AIB, Anglo, the Public Sector Salaries, Social Welfare, Old age Pensions, the roads, etc


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## shnaek (30 Sep 2010)

DerKaiser said:


> They should stop the charade that payment of health levies, income levies and PRSI is any different from an income tax.


Hear hear. What I wouldn't give to live in a democracy where the government treated me like an adult.


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## Protocol (30 Sep 2010)

If we merge income tax and social insurance, then how do we determine eligibilty for social protection benefits?


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## z107 (30 Sep 2010)

I just checked the NPRF web site (www.nprf.ie) and it says this:


> The National Pensions Reserve Fund was established in April 2001 to meet as much as possible of the costs of Ireland's social welfare and public service pensions from 2025 onwards when these costs are projected to increase dramatically due to the ageing of the population.


It says 'Ireland's social welfare and public service pensions.'

So just to be clear, this doesn't mean my state contributory pension?

I also realise that my taxes are being ill-spent, but I thought at the very least I'd get some kind of pension.


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## Towger (30 Sep 2010)

DerKaiser said:


> They should stop the charade that payment of health levies, income levies and PRSI is any different from an income tax.


 
If you have even been at a meeting with all of them in the one room. About the only thing which upsets all 3 is calling PRSI / Levies tax and using tax as a general term to describe, well tax!


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## Towger (30 Sep 2010)

Protocol said:


> If we merge income tax and social insurance, then how do we determine eligibilty for social protection benefits?


 
What difference does it make?? They all go into the same pot and Finance dishes the money out as required. The UHC is supposed to do away with the different PRSI Class (A/S/C/D/H/E etc I think there is another unpublished class for older politicians) entitlements.


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## Protocol (30 Sep 2010)

umop3p!sdn said:


> I just checked the NPRF web site () and it says this:
> 
> It says 'Ireland's social welfare and public service pensions.'
> 
> So just to be clear, this doesn't mean my state contributory pension?


 
It does.

State pensions = SW pensions

Two types = contributory PRSI, and non-contributory means-tested.


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## Protocol (30 Sep 2010)

It does make a difference.

Paying tax does not entitle you to anything.

Paying PRSI does - it is an *insurance* payment, not a tax.


Most countries have social insurance, there is a rationale for them, there is a reason for them.


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## Protocol (30 Sep 2010)

*Appendix B: Commission on Taxation & McCarthy Reports PRSI Sections*
*Commission on Taxation*
*The interface between the tax and social welfare systems*​ 
*3.1 The pay related social insurance (PRSI) system*
​*
3.1.4 PRSI – social insurance or a tax?​*

*The question of whether PRSI is a social insurance or a tax has been considered on a*
*number of occasions. The previous Commission on Taxation concluded that social*
*insurance is a form of taxation and that social insurance contributions should be*
*replaced with a social security tax assessed and collected on the same basis as income*
*tax. The Commission on Social Welfare (1986) took issue with the categorisation of*
*social insurance as a tax and regarded the system of social insurance contributions as*
*having a significant insurance dimension, which is not outweighed by the absence of*
*an actuarial link between benefits and contributions.*

*We consider that, on one hand, PRSI can be regarded as an insurance arrangement.*
*The purpose of any social insurance system is to fund a range of social welfare*
*benefits to workers and their dependants. A social assistance system is also operated*
*to assist people without adequate insurance entitlement. By making PRSI*
*contributions, workers obtain entitlements to benefits. While it is a fact that the*
*benefits will not vary by reference to the quantum of contributions made, the system*
*is designed as an insurance-type scheme that provides benefits to those who make*
*contributions.*

*On the other hand, the fact that there is no direct correlation between contributions*
*made and entitlement to benefits under the system suggests that it does not have all*
*the hallmarks of an insurance scheme. Those who pay higher contributions do not*
*have an entitlement to correspondingly higher benefits. While it may be appropriate*
*that those on higher incomes should make higher contributions in the context of*
*fairness, it could be argued this may be more a feature of a tax system than an*
*insurance arrangement. Our general conclusion was that PRSI has some*
*characteristics of a tax and therefore that the contribution side should be examined by*
*us.*

*We therefore examined PRSI to the extent that it has an impact on our terms of*
*reference. We note the complexity of the PRSI system and its wide scope covering*
*both benefits and contributions. Our consideration of PRSI is not intended to be*
*comprehensive and such a consideration is, in any event, outside our terms of*
*reference. We confined our examination to the contributions side of PRSI and to*
*examining anomalies within various categories of contributors. This is the aspect of*
*PRSI that is in the nature of a tax. It became very clear, however, during our*
*examination that the overall PRSI system is complex, unwieldy and contains*
*significant anomalies. We consider that there should be a separate comprehensive*
*consideration of the PRSI system.*​


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