# DIY Accountancy



## smallThought (21 Apr 2008)

Hi,

I have had a lot of trouble trouble with an incompetent accountant making mistakes and charging me for it for the last year and have decided to go it on my own (I was spending more time correcting his mistakes than it took me to track things in Excel).

I have a very simple company, it's a Limited company and I work as a contractor so there will be at most 12 invoices and a few expenses (I was simply putting them in as directors loans).

I am signed on to ROS so I can submit VAT and, I think, PRSI and PAYE (haven't read their docs yet).
From reading this site and others 'TAS Books 1' seems to be the favourite accountancy software so that covers my bookkeeping and tax calculations.

I assume I need to unregister him as my financial advisor so the various forms will be delivered to me?

Is there anything else I need do before dumping my accountant?
Any recommendations on sites I should read?
Check lists to make sure I don't miss anything?

Any thoughts appreciated.

    Thanks, Vin


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## tra (22 Apr 2008)

VIN, Glad you have brought this topic up about  [some} unreliabale,INCOMPETANT ACCOUNTANTS,who very often make mistakes,as i have posted complaint about them before,I ALSO FOUND MAJOR MISTAKES , IN MY ANNUAL RETURNS,which had to be resubmitted by written form and i am a sole trader with very little paperwork,and i couldnt understand that with ROS they just have to imput the figures and everything is complete,and if everything is setup right with the business info into excel or whatever they also should come out correct.
were you able to get a number from ROS  for yourself as well as your accountant having one? as i was told i couldnt.Also who can we complain to?.


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## ubiquitous (22 Apr 2008)

One of the good things about accountancy is that the customer can always do their own accounts and tax returns on a DIY basis. However unless your tax & business affairs are very simple and you know exactly what you are doing, it is almost always advisable (and cheaper!) to get professional help. If your accountant is incompetent, get rid of them and ask friends or family for recommendations to replace them.


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## simplyjoe (22 Apr 2008)

Whilst I have sympathy for you I would recommend that you do appoint an accountant to oversee and submit the year end accounts. I agree some accountants can be poor and some can be very expensive I still think that you need someone to check and compile your own work before submission to the tax office/CRO. If the business is simple then excel is fine. The formating of limited company accounts is a different story altogether and missed deadlines can be very, very expensive. I agree with Ubiq. talk to friends, family and work colleagues before an appointment is made. Get a quote, a letter of engagement and make sure that the accountant is authorised to practice by an accountancy institute. I would also insist on the accountant being a registered auditor.


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## ubiquitous (22 Apr 2008)

simplyjoe said:


> I would also insist on the accountant being a registered auditor.



This is less of an issue as it once was. Being a registered auditor might once have been seen as a badge of honour and the absence of a registered auditor designation might have been regarded as something of a defect in a professional accountancy practice. That was back in the days before audit exemption came into force and nowadays audit registration is becoming redundant for many firms as 96% of companies are now audit exempt. Most professional accountancy practices in the UK have now got rid of their registered auditor designation, in order to avoid the burdensome red tape and cost of compliance with audit regulations. An increasing number of firms here are starting to do the same, and some industry experts reckon that within 5 years most Irish firms will no longer be audit-registered.

In time, non-audit registered firms will be more selective than audit registered firms in the clients they take on, as they will not be interested in dealing with clients who have lost audit exemption due to previous late filing, or who are at risk of doing so in the future.


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## Niall M (22 Apr 2008)

Make sure you can be audit exempt before you proceed, ie if your cro returns have been late you cant go audit exempt for two years.


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## smallThought (22 Apr 2008)

Thanks for the various responses.

This kicked of a more lively thread than expected.
Just my opinion on the majority of the posts; I am happy to have accountants answer me, they should know the ins and outs better than anyone and any advice given on an open group like this has to be treated carefully so a disclaimer seems like overkill IMHO.

Just to go through the points made.

*Niall M*
_ Make sure you can be audit exempt before you proceed_
How can I tell if I'm exempt?
I haven't been late with anything and the mistake made doesn't need to be rectified (paid more PRSI than I should have, it was a light year so not much in cash terms).


On the idea of getting another accountant.
Unfortunately the only person I know who is in a similar position uses the guy I am getting rid of (he had bigger problems with him than I did but not until after I already started using him).
I will consider getting someone to review the end of year accounts at least for this year since I haven't done them before but the ones my accountant did last year were very simple, no real detail looked like a basic word template.

On the questions from  *tra*
I got a number for the ROS, you can only register once as a company (once registered you can issue multiple certs so various people can access the info) and once as a financial advisor so maybe your accountant took the wrong registration (or maybe sole trader is done differently to Ltd).
I theory you could complain to his accounting body, in my case CIMA (he was ACMA TMITI so fully accredited), but I know a few accountants (who don't do this sort of accountancy unfortunately) and their opinion was that complaining was a waste of time for incompetence, they only take charges of an illegal nature seriously.

  Vin


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## Lorraine B (22 Apr 2008)

I know that TMITI is "Technician Member if the Irish Taxation Institute" but what is "ACMA"?


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## Graham_07 (23 Apr 2008)

Lorraine B said:


> I know that TMITI is "Technician Member if the Irish Taxation Institute" but what is "ACMA"?


 
ACMA is a member of [broken link removed]


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## Graham_07 (23 Apr 2008)

> _Make sure you can be audit exempt before you proceed_
> _How can I tell if I'm exempt?_


 
_See here for the audit exemption requirements. _




> On the idea of getting another accountant.
> Unfortunately the only person I know who is in a similar position uses the guy I am getting rid of (he had bigger problems with him than I did but not until after I already started using him).
> I will consider getting someone to review the end of year accounts at least for this year since I haven't done them before but the ones my accountant did last year were very simple, no real detail looked like a basic word template.


 
Unless you feel competent to prepare and submit statutory financial statements for a limited company , both to Revenue and to the CRO then the services of a good accountantant are more than worth the cost. Without seeming to "self serve" the co called "vested interests" of accountants around the country I do believe in each man/woman to their job. I would not attempt to repair my office computers. I pay an appropriate professional to do it. I may know a bit about them but it's the little bit you don't know that can be so very dangerous and costly if you get it wrong. The same goes for company accounts. 


Back to your Excel records, if there are very little transactions I would find Excel more than adequate. I have many clients using Excel in situations as you describe and I find it perfectly acceptable to enable me to prepare the end of year returns. Get an accounting package if you want but remember it will only do what it's designed to and that may not always be right for everyone.


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## ubiquitous (23 Apr 2008)

tra said:


> we EXPECT those we EMPLOY as our accountants {which we do need } to give us their full professional expertise, and not for us, to have to question ,whether are returns were correct or not.



In fairness, as a practising accountant, I find generally that this is often a two-way street. My best clients are those who as a matter of course take an active interest in the draft accounts, schedules, computations and returns I present to them, and who don't mind asking questions and querying things. No matter how diligent or careful an accountant is in preparing accounts & returns, they will never know their client's business as well as the client, and they will never be immune from making an occasional mistake. There is nothing worse than a client who blindly signs everything without checking or even reading them, and who complains after the event that there has been an error or omission.

If you take a questioning approach to your accounts and returns, and discuss your queries with your accountant, you will greatly increase the probability that your accounts and returns will be correctly and properly completed. If you fail to involve yourself in the process, the opposite will apply. All it takes is a few emails or phone calls...

ps I find that Excel is perfectly adequate for book-keeping for the majority of self-employed or small company clients, where there are generally a limited number of transactions in a given period.


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## argolis (23 Apr 2008)

I'm an I.T. contractor with this Excel-based setup and making my own online returns which I find fairly straightforward. My first year was tricky getting my PAYE/PRSI correct with the transition from permanent employment, so I did get accounting advice here. It's considerably easier maintaining accounts and making returns now - my second year. I may get an accountant to look over my accounts before my next end of year submissions but after this year I hope not to have to.

If you decide you'd be comfortable going this route you'd want to be registered for online CRO access in plenty of time for the next deadline. Also, accountants can give you advice on what to expense/not to expense but this is also on the Revenues website gratis.


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## simplyjoe (23 Apr 2008)

Also, accountants can give you advice on what to expense/not to expense but this is also on the Revenues website gratis.[/quote]

The website will tell you the bare minimum. There are perfectly legal ways to minimise your tax liability which the website will not inform you off. Penny wise pound foolish! You have two risks 1)overpaying tax as you do not claim all of the expenses/allowances you are permitted 2) underpaying tax which is subsequently identified and then you will have penalties and interest. There are 3000 sections in the Taxes Consolidation Acts. The revenue website is only a small fraction of the information you require. Miss your CRO deadlines and you are in trouble. Fall foul of the CRO/ODCE rules and you are liable for a penalty of €2,500 per offence per director and or jail (unlikely!) However - good luck.


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## ubiquitous (23 Apr 2008)

argolis said:


> . Also, accountants can give you advice on what to expense/not to expense but this is also on the Revenues website gratis.



Can you post specific links to this advice, please?


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## argolis (25 Apr 2008)

I correct myself in implying everything that is needed is on the Revenues' website. I'm sure there are other suggestions a good accountant can make for a company or persons' situation.

I have a simple limited company with basic expenses, I'm happy that between the website and the advice I mentioned I received that I'm paying the right taxes. As for the CRO, simplyjoe, you seem to be bordering on scare tactics. The CRO will give you all the information of what they expect and when. As will the Revenue. They're not out to trip you up and/or send you to jail.

The original poster sounds like they're putting in some effort looking into this. Between those efforts and perhaps the input of an accountant for the first few years, what else would they need? I don't see the need to keep an accountant on my payroll thereafter, except for some once off reviews to keep up to date.


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## ubiquitous (28 Apr 2008)

argolis said:


> As for the CRO, simplyjoe, you seem to be bordering on scare tactics.


Scare tactics? If only...

Read this thread to see what can happen...

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=80910


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## Bronte (29 Apr 2008)

Could someone please clarify what is an 'audit exemption' status and why it is so important?


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## BobbyFowler (29 Apr 2008)

Be careful on DIY Accountancy - I've just made a major balls up & forgot to submit my Annual Return - It looks like I lose my Audit Exemption (which is for companies who turn over less than 2Million Euro per year or something like that)


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## z103 (29 Apr 2008)

> Scare tactics? If only...
> 
> Read this thread to see what can happen...


This can happen whether you have an accountant or not. When we had an accountant, it was still up to us to get them to submit our returns, they never reminded us.

I would go as far as to say that you may be less likely to not submit returns with DIY accountancy because you're not relying on third parties. Everything is in your control.



> Could someone please clarify what is an 'audit exemption' status and why it is so important?


Audits cost loads of money.


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## simplyjoe (29 Apr 2008)

''When we had an accountant, it was still up to us to get them to submit our returns, they never reminded us.''

How many reminders did you need! We remind the client once by letter and twice by phone to supply relevant information - if they do not reply then what can you do. They also get 2 reminders from the CRO.



'I would go as far as to say that you may be less likely to not submit returns with DIY accountancy because you're not relying on third parties. Everything is in your control.'

Depends upon the individual and depends upon the agent. In my experience people who DIY nearly always gets into trouble and then have to seek help - result extra costs. 


'Audits cost loads of money'

True. We make a substantial amount of money from audit work - usually taking over from other accountants, patching up after failed DIY or where own clients have ignored letters, warnings, etc.. However more and more people are getting compliant. It is work that we do not like as, usually, the work gives the client no benefit what so ever.


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## Bronte (30 Apr 2008)

Sorry another question, so if you are in business and you don't file a return on time you lose your audit exempt status and you then have to hire an accountant to do an audit on you, is this correct?  How much do they cost?  Or do Revenue do the audits?  Does it matter what your turnover is as to whether you will require an audit?


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## ubiquitous (30 Apr 2008)

Bronte said:


> Sorry another question, so if you are in business and you don't file a return on time you lose your audit exempt status and you then have to hire an accountant to do an audit on you, is this correct?


Yes


> How much do they cost?


Depends. Generally they are very expensive as the audit regulations and procedures are very complicated, and auditing is risky work for a firm. If they put a foot wrong, they can get their foot chopped off by regulators, ODCE and others. This is why many accounting firms are very reluctant to take on audit work from non-clients.



> Or do Revenue do the audits?


This has nothing to do with the Revenue's work in auditing tax returns.


> Does it matter what your turnover is as to whether you will require an audit?


No, if your return is late. In other cases, if your turnover is more than €7.3m you must be audited anyway.

If you google.ie "audit exemption" you will get plenty of other information.


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