# What are valid grounds for objecting to a planning application?



## waom (22 Mar 2007)

Does anyone have any knowledge on what are valid grounds for objecting to a planning application.

My neighbour has lodged an application which could seriously affect the value of my house mainly by overlooking windows


----------



## priscilla (22 Mar 2007)

*Re: Planning objections*

hi waom, i personally wouldn't like objecting to someone else's planning application but if you wanted to go ahead you could site that the house overlooking yours would be an invasion of your privacy, perhaps a compromise would be to have no windows on the gable next to you. also if the planned house is to be taller than yours you may experience light deprivation. it might be worth checking out the local development plan to see if there are any planning restrictions to developing in your area or if certain types of houses or heights of houses need to be adhered to.  you could check to see what kind of sight lines they have as planners can be quite sticky on those.


----------



## tosullivan (22 Mar 2007)

*Re: Planning objections*

there are certain guidelines about invasion of privacy and the min allowable distance that one end of a house can have an overlooking window next to the neighbour.  My mate found this out recently when he went to buy a detached house.
The house had no side window in the gable end as he was told they were too close to the house next door and it wasn't allowed.
Check with planning laws about this and then lodge an objection if you are within your rights.


----------



## angela59 (22 Mar 2007)

*Re: Planning objections*

Hi there, I know how you feel, I think you have to do whats called a submission which costs around E20 and state your observations or objections.  Your submission has to be lodged by a certain date, I think within 3 weeks prior to your neighbour's obtaining planning if they are successful.   Two things to consider though, your neighbour will be able to access exactly what you have submitted to the Council and secondly if ever in the future you want to obtain planning even be it a couple of miles away this neighbour might object to you just to be vindictive.  That's not to say you shouldn't object, if you feel strongly enough about something certainly voice your opinion but also take into account the reprocussions.


----------



## bartbridge (26 Mar 2007)

*Re: Planning objections*

At least if you lodge an objection it will be taken into consideration when the council makes it's recommendations. I know of a person that built a house between their own and their brothers house. They promised the new house wouldn't overlook the neighbouring one (as well as a few other things) but as soon as planning was granted they went back on their word on everything. 

Better to speak up before the decision is made by the council as there's nothing you can do once the house is built...


----------



## galwaytt (26 Mar 2007)

*Re: Planning objections*

you don't need to object to something that is foul of the law, i.e. gable windows overlooking a neighbouring property.   It shouldn't get pp for them, anyway.

How are you with the neighbours - any thoughts on just asking them about it - it might be a simple matter to have them omitted/relocated......


----------



## Jake2000 (26 Mar 2007)

*Re: Planning objections*

There are very strict guidelines about the dates for making a submission. AFAIK, the submission has to be made within 5 weeks of the planning application being lodged. Even a day later and it cannot be considered and will be returned to you. Your local Co Co website or planning office can give you the details.

The other point to bear in mind is that if you don't lodge a submission (often referred to as an objection) you cannot appeal the resulting planning decision to An Bord Pleanala. 

If you appeal it to ABP the basis for your appeal is irrelevant as ABP will do a full review of the planning application to decide whether the proposal constitutes good development or not, regardless of the reason for your appeal. This is IMHO one of the great flaws of the planning process but that is for another day.

I would agree however that it is preferable to talk to your neighbours and discuss your concerns and see if they can take them on board.


----------



## Toby (26 Mar 2007)

*Re: Planning objections*

I woudln't assume the planning authorities will catch everything so definitely lodge an objection if theres something that will really affect you. 

My advice is always to get an architect to submitt the objection for you - it makes it easier to look your neighbour in the eye afterwards if you can say that your architect insisted that you object since he said the development would seriously impact your property price and enjoyment of your home.


----------



## nutty nut (26 Mar 2007)

*Re: Planning objections*

This question is raised every now and then at work and TBH I shy away from it as Im not in the business of trying to stop someone from being granted planning permission. All I would say to the OP is to put down in writing all the ways that you think you, your property, your other neighbours and their property could be affected if your neighbour (planning applicant) was granted permission.

If you are just looking for different grounds to object then I suspect that you just want to object in any event and are looking for reasons. 

If its a genuine objection then just state your concerns. I would however suggest that you talk this over with the neighbour first before going down the road of objecting which inevitably leads to bad feeling between the parties.


----------



## ang1170 (27 Mar 2007)

*Re: Planning objections*

I'd agree with those who said your first port of call should be to talk directly with your neighbours: you have to live next to them after all. On the other hand, if they were being a bit more reasonable, they should have spoken to you first before lodging the application (on the same grounds).

There are very strict timescales involved. Furthermore, if you don't object in the first place, you cannot appeal the decision. 

Comments can only be made on planning grounds, not "I don't like the idea of that". Note that in itself, devaluing of your own property is not a valid ground. However, overlooking, overshadowing etc. certainly are.

A good place to look is the development plan for the county: you should be able to get this from the council's Web site. There's also information available in:

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/c...permission/commenting_on_planning_application

The various councils also have advice on their Web sites (some much better than others) as to what valid grounds for objection are.

I've been on both sides of this: I'm currently building an extension. Before we lodged the application we showed the plans to neighbours (and actually changed them in response to comments). No objections, and we got our permission.

On the other side, I was involved in objecting to a neighbour of my parent's plans to put a new house in what is effectively their back garden. Once we decided to object (and even though I haven't lived there for years, I was able to object as anyone can), I went through every single objection I could think of: about twelve in all. All were very specific and referenced the council's own development plan (e.g. density of development guidelines etc.). The saga went on for about two years: three seperate applications, the first two were appealed. In the end they gave up.

In summary, my advice would be:

- speak to them first: they're unlikely to drop what they're doing, but may ammend it to your satisfaction

- if you do object, keep in mind you'll not be on the best terms with them from that point on (with the best will in the world)

- keep objections as simple, factual as possible and based on planning issues

- find as many objections you can: don't assume the planners will discover issues for themselved (e.g. is new access a traffic danger?)

- persevere

Good luck!


----------



## waom (11 Apr 2007)

*Re: Planning objections*

Many thanks for all the advice.  Spoke to neighbours whose advice was to object if we did not like it! Have now engaged an architect who has lodged an objection. Would have preferred to have been consulted in first place. Net result is that both parties will have to incur architect costs that could have been avoided (which will leave a bad taste on both sides)


----------



## nutty nut (11 Apr 2007)

*Re: Planning objections*



waom said:


> Many thanks for all the advice.  Spoke to neighbours whose advice was to object if we did not like it! Have now engaged an architect who has lodged an objection. Would have preferred to have been consulted in first place. Net result is that both parties will have to incur architect costs that could have been avoided (which will leave a bad taste on both sides)



Just out of curiosity did you talk to the neighbour who has made the application in an attempt to come to a compromise before going down the road of lodging an objection?


----------



## waom (12 Apr 2007)

*Re: Planning objections*

The attitude of the neighbour who made the application was that it was a matter for planning authority who could be relied on to make the correct decision. I believe they fully understood impact on other neighbours before submitting application and hoped to get away with it.


----------



## nutty nut (12 Apr 2007)

*Re: Planning objections*

So you didnt talk to them.


----------



## bacchus (12 Apr 2007)

*Re: Planning objections*



waom said:


> Does anyone have any knowledge on what are valid grounds for objecting to a planning application.


 
Sorry to be direct, but do not bother objecting if you can not find good reasons yourself for objecting.



waom said:


> My neighbour has lodged an application *which could* seriously affect the value of my house mainly by overlooking windows


Speculation on your part?
TBH (may be i am naive?), i would trust planning authorities to rule accordingly regarding overlooking windows



waom said:


> Have now engaged an architect who has lodged an objection.  Net result is that both parties will have to incur architect costs


It was your decision in engaged any architect to lodge objection. Many people don't, and object themself. Again, you seem to lack of reasons for objecting.
BTW, you objection will be made public (at least true for SDCC).



waom said:


> The attitude of the neighbour who made the application was that it was a matter for planning authority who could be relied on to make the correct decision


Your neighbours are correct.



You would have guessed, and as stated by previous posters,  i also do not like objections for the sake of objecting, unless there are very very good reasons for it. But this thread did not convince me that you have.


----------



## ang1170 (12 Apr 2007)

*Re: Planning objections*

Bacchus, what's that all about??? The OP made it clear why they were objecting (overlooking), and was looking for advice on what were valid grounds. 

Unfortunately, local authorities cannot be relied on to take everything into account in making decisions. Furthermore, in a lot of cases issues can be fairly subjective, so letting them know what you think is helpful to them (and technically, they're not "objections" but "observations" you're making).

Having said that, once everyone's had their say, one assumes local authorities reach an independent decision, based on planning criteria. Noone's suggesting anything else.

On the other point, personally, I don't think it necessary to engage an architect to make the objection, but if you're not comfortable doing it yourself, where's the harm?


----------



## tups7 (12 Apr 2007)

*Re: Planning objections*

I recently built a house, and thought it appropriate to give a copy of the plans to my new neighbour before I applied. Had a bit of a chat with them, and they seemd sound enough about it.

When I heard nothing from them. I went away and applied. Weeks later, the day before the final day for objections, the neighbour lost the plot, said I had mislead them with my description, even though I had given them the plans. They saw where I dug the test holes for the perculation area, 25m from the proposed development, and thought that is where the house was going. When the got around to looking at the drawings, which showed the house 25m closer to them they wrote a stinker of a letter objecting to the developments proximity to thier house. I got held up in the planning process for 18 months as a result. And now we dont talk.

So from where I am standing, leaving up to a third party is the way to go.


----------



## nutty nut (12 Apr 2007)

*Re: Planning objections*

My problem with this whole thread is that the OP had already established the basis for an objection ie overlooking. Why on earth come here looking for advice when he/she knew how they were going be affected by the neighbours proposals.

I and several others suggested that the OP should talk to the neighbour concerned and when asked if they did in fact talk the matter through the response from the OP was that the neighbour (in the OP's opinion only) had decided that it be left in the hands of the planners. 

There was obviously no discussion between the parties despite all the good advice given here so as far as I can see the OP posted here with the intentions of getting advice on other issues he/she could include in their objection. In my opinion it was a simple case of objecting for the sake of objecting.

Its no wonder I dont involve myself in these issues from a works point of view.


----------



## galwaytt (12 Apr 2007)

*Re: Planning objections*

when you think about, there isn't even a need to object.  The development (as far as can be determined), shouldn't pass, anyway.

say he did get PP.  He gets a 'decision to grant', and following that, there is a 30-day period in which to object, before the PP gets actually granted.

If OP had waited, the local authority might have spotted it and knocked it on the head without speaking to anyone......or spending any €€


----------



## ang1170 (12 Apr 2007)

*Re: Planning objections*



galwaytt said:


> when you think about, there isn't even a need to object. The development (as far as can be determined), shouldn't pass, anyway.
> 
> say he did get PP. He gets a 'decision to grant', and following that, there is a 30-day period in which to object, before the PP gets actually granted.
> 
> If OP had waited, the local authority might have spotted it and knocked it on the head without speaking to anyone......or spending any €€


 
AFAIK, this is incorrect. Once the date for obsevations has passed, you can't make any. The 30 day thing is the time allowed for appeals, and you cannot make an apeal if you have not previously made an observation.


----------



## nutty nut (12 Apr 2007)

*Re: Planning objections*



ang1170 said:


> AFAIK, this is incorrect. Once the date for obsevations has passed, you can't make any. The 30 day thing is the time allowed for appeals, and you cannot make an apeal if you have not previously made an observation.


Thats spot on.

I think maybe galwaytt meant to say "appeal" instead of "object"


----------



## bacchus (12 Apr 2007)

*Re: Planning objections*



ang1170 said:


> Bacchus, what's that all about??? The OP made it clear why they were objecting (overlooking)


So why come here for more then? 



ang1170 said:


> On the other point, personally, I don't think it necessary to engage an architect to make the objection, but if you're not comfortable doing it yourself, where's the harm?


We agree on this. OP should therefore not complain about the cost of  employing an architect.


----------



## waom (12 Apr 2007)

*Re: Planning objections*

I may not have been clear enough in earlier postings.

1. Did discuss with neighbours, who were not interested in taking my views on board (as is their right).  In any case, unless they withdrew the application, I was advised that there was no procedure for planning authority to take into account post application discussions between the parties. I would have preferred if they had consulted me before they put in the application (for the sake of good neighbourliness if not good planning practice).

2. In my original request I was looking for advice on grounds to make objection. I knew that, on grounds of privacy, overlooking, proximity, overshadowing etc., the proposed development would seriously affect me. What I did not know was whether these were valid reasons from the local authority's point of view. I obviously wanted to make the best case that I could. I had no interest in objecting for the sake of it - I wanted to be sure my reasons were valid (and would be taken into account by the planning authority). The architect presented a very professional case on my behalf, which I could have never done because of my lack of knowledge of the planning process.

3. The advice I received was that unless you object, planning authority may not see the problems from your perspective (it would be a bit like going to court without a solicitor and hoping the judge would always make the best decision)


----------



## ang1170 (12 Apr 2007)

*Re: Planning objections*



nutty nut said:


> Thats spot on.
> 
> I think maybe galwaytt meant to say "appeal" instead of "object"


 
Even if he did mean appeal, you cannot appeal unless you have 1st made an objection. In other words, if you sit back and wait for the decision to be made before doing anything, it's too late.


----------



## nutty nut (12 Apr 2007)

*Re: Planning objections*



ang1170 said:


> Even if he did mean appeal, you cannot appeal unless you have 1st made an objection. In other words, if you sit back and wait for the decision to be made before doing anything, it's too late.


Apologies - I misread galwaytt's post and what you have posted above is right of course


----------



## galwaytt (13 Apr 2007)

*Re: Planning objections*

mmm, I see what you mean by appeal vs. object.   

Whilst the applicant may appeal a decision (for whatever reaason), surely an affected party (like this case) can also 'appeal' the decision.    I dunno, I'm just presuming it's a two-way thing...........??


----------



## galwaytt (13 Apr 2007)

*Re: Planning objections*

..actually, just found a snippet on the Bord Pleanala site.

Because the OP is an affected party, by dint of adjoining property, he can appeal in the 30 day period, even if he hasn't made an objection inside the original (no other 3rd party could, though.  See text here;


_"2. Who may appeal?_
_· An applicant for planning permission (first party), and_

_· any other person, body or interested group etc. who made submissions or observations in writing to the planning authority in relation to the planning application in accordance with permission regulations (third party). There are two exceptions to the requirement to have made prior submissions or observations: -_

_(1) where a prescribed body was entitled to be notified of a planning application by the planning authority and was not notified in accordance with law, the body may lodge an appeal against the decision of the planning authority without having made submissions or observations on the planning application._

_(2) *A person with an interest in land adjoining the application site (e.g. a landowner/occupier)may apply to the Board for leave to appeal the decision of the planning authority *(see question 29)."_


----------



## askalot (13 Apr 2007)

*Re: Planning objections*



waom said:


> The attitude of the neighbour who made the application was that it was a matter for planning authority who could be relied on to make the correct decision.



A somewhat doubtful statement. There are many cases where an application will be passed by the local planning department only to be denied permission by bord pleanala on appeal. If you don't submit objections at the local planning stage then bord pleanala will never get to have their say.

My experience is that an bord pleanala has a fairly rigorous decision making process but the same can not be said for the local authorities. Or at least not SDCC.


----------



## OurFella (13 Apr 2007)

*Re: Planning objections*

From my experience, privacy/overlooking/disruption of views/negative impact of house value etc are not valid grounds for objection. A neighbour in my estate recently built a house in his garden. His neighbour, situated on lower ground meaning the new house was directly over looking his, submitted an objection outlining the above reasons along with light deprivation. 
Apparently you are not entitled to a view, or a particular house value. The plans had to be altered so any upstairs windows overlooking the house on lower ground had to be frosted glass, taking care of the privacy/overlooking aspect. Light deprivation is a valid concern however the planners, in this particular case, deemed the new house to be far enough away.


----------



## askalot (13 Apr 2007)

*Re: Planning objections*



OurFella said:


> From my experience, privacy/overlooking/disruption of views/negative impact of house value etc are not valid grounds for objection...................The plans had to be altered so any upstairs windows overlooking the house on lower ground had to be frosted glass, taking care of the privacy/overlooking aspect.



So you really mean that overlooking is a valid reason to object. 

There is no guarantee that the clause about frosted glass would have been inserted into the permission had the neighbour not objected and brought the issue of overlooking to the attention of local authorities as they only go by the drawings and do not carry out a site visit.


----------



## waom (13 Apr 2007)

*Re: Planning objections*



galwaytt said:


> ..actually, just found a snippet on the Bord Pleanala site.
> 
> _(2) *A person with an interest in land adjoining the application site (e.g. a landowner/occupier)may apply to the Board for leave to appeal the decision of the planning authority *(see question 29)."_


 
Not a legal person, but I think applying for leave to appeal means you first have to persude the Board to allow you to make an appeal. I suspect that you would have to have a very good case.


----------



## OurFella (13 Apr 2007)

*Re: Planning objections*



askalot said:


> So you really mean that overlooking is a valid reason to object.
> 
> There is no guarantee that the clause about frosted glass would have been inserted into the permission had the neighbour not objected and brought the issue of overlooking to the attention of local authorities as they only go by the drawings and do not carry out a site visit.


 
You're right, it is a valid reason to object, what I meant was it's not a valid reason for permission to be refused. It may be different from county to county, but where I am the local plannng authority will visit the site.


----------



## nutty nut (13 Apr 2007)

*Re: Planning objections*



waom said:


> Not a legal person, but I think applying for leave to appeal means you first have to persude the Board to allow you to make an appeal. I suspect that you would have to have a very good case.


Yes indeed. I believe the stats show that the biggest percentage of applications for leave to appeal are rejected.

The normal criteria for an application for leave to appeal would involve 1 of 2 situations.  The applicant for PP submitted revised or altered plans to the council when the 5 week period for objections was nearly up and where the neighbour was happy with the original plans and didnt object.

The other situation would be where, in the same scenario the neighbour is happy with the original plans and didnt object, but because of certain conditions attached to the grant of permission would alter the original proposal.


----------



## galwaytt (13 Apr 2007)

*Re: Planning objections*



waom said:


> Not a legal person, but I think applying for leave to appeal means you first have to persude the Board to allow you to make an appeal. I suspect that you would have to have a very good case.


 
I see what you mean: however, I presume leave to appeal means you only have to satisfy that you qualify to object under the rules (e.g. that you are the actual neighbouring property owner etc..), not the actual objection itself.

Once you satisfy that ground, you may object.   No.??


----------



## nutty nut (13 Apr 2007)

*Re: Planning objections*

Just for clarity - *Objections* are made to the planning authority and *appeals* are made to an Bord Pleanala.

Stops confusion


----------



## waom (13 Apr 2007)

*Re: Planning objections*



galwaytt said:


> I see what you mean: however, I presume leave to appeal means you only have to satisfy that you qualify to object under the rules (e.g. that you are the actual neighbouring property owner etc..), not the actual objection itself.
> 
> Once you satisfy that ground, you may object. No.??


 
Having an interest in land adjoining the application site only gives you the right to request leave to appeal.

As per Nutty Nut's earlier clarification, the Board will only grant leave to appeal in specific circumstances.


----------



## ang1170 (13 Apr 2007)

*Re: Planning objections*



galwaytt said:


> I see what you mean: however, I presume leave to appeal means you only have to satisfy that you qualify to object under the rules (e.g. that you are the actual neighbouring property owner etc..), not the actual objection itself.
> 
> Once you satisfy that ground, you may object. No.??


 
No, see further down the same page you quoted, where the only case where it's considered is "...where the person shows that the decision of the planning authority to grant permission differs materially from the application because of the conditions imposed and the conditions imposed will materially affect his/her enjoyment of the land or reduce the value of the land."

In other words, say the local authority imposed some condition to the planning permision that iself materially affected a neighbouring property, then you can apply for leave to appeal. My guess this is exceptionally rare, and is only there to protect people from the highly unlikely event that one of the conditions imposed by the local authority adversly affected someone where the original application hadn't.

If you want to object to anything in the applkication itself, you have to do it before the initial deadline. This is very strictly enforced by the local authorities.


----------



## ang1170 (13 Apr 2007)

*Re: Planning objections*



OurFella said:


> From my experience, privacy/overlooking/disruption of views/negative impact of house value etc are not valid grounds for objection.


 
Some of these are valid grounds for objections, others aren't.

Privacy, overlooking, overshadowing are valid grounds.

Disruption of views, negative impact on house value aren't.

Objections, if they are accepted as valid, can be addressed either by refusing permission, or by imposing conditions (e.g. to reduce height of the building, using obscured glass on windows, removing windows etc.).

The system is well documented on the various local authority and An Bord Planala Web sites. It's worth looking at a few of these to get a feel for the way the system operates.

Personally, I think it's reasonably fair system in terms of procedure, though clearly not everyone's going to be happy with the decisions (they never are). It could be improved, though: for example, I believe that in the UK directly effected neighbours are contacted by the local authority to see if they have any objections, which is better than having to spot site notices and ads in papers.


----------



## nutty nut (14 Apr 2007)

Just to cite a recent case which gives an insight to the way ABP deal with applications for leave to appeal.

About 18 months ago the Council granted PP for a hotel in a rural area. There were a few local objectors and they appealed the decision to ABP and their appeal was upheld. About 8 months ago another planning application for the hotel was made and there were no objections to the council.

I thought this very strange and had all these fanciful ideas going through my head that the locals had been given a sweetener. But what actually happened was they weren't aware of the second application having been made. The newspaper notice was in one of the local papers for the first application but in the Irish Times for the second application. The site notice for the first application was still up on the site and it was simply replaced with a new one and nobody spotted this. The locals genuinely did not know that there was a second application with the council.

Anyways, the council granted it and it was only then that the locals heard about it. They applied to ABP for leave to appeal but their application was rejected on the basis that they had not made their objections/submissions to the council within the specified time frame. Even though APB had refused permission just a few months beforehand for the hotel they were powerless to act on the second application and subsequent grant of permission as the proper procedures had not been followed by the locals.

Anyone looking to buy a site with full PP for a hotel?


----------



## waom (14 Apr 2007)

*Re: Planning objections*



ang1170 said:


> If you want to object to anything in the application itself, you have to do it before the initial deadline. This is very strictly enforced by the local authorities.


 
Good point - I have heard that the deadline is missed by a lot of people. It is advertised as 5 weeks but is really 4 weeks and six days (the date the application is lodged is counted as a day). The objection must also be lodged before 4pm.


----------

