# Govt ‘will have to stem flow of shoppers across border’



## Guest128 (24 Nov 2008)

[broken link removed]

Really not happy with this drivel out of the government. They need to make shopping attractive in ROI BY* REDUCING RIDICULOUS PRICES*. It really makes my blood boil them telling us to shop in ROI when we are perfectly entitled to shop in NI, for much better value. They should investigate why there is such a huge difference in the prices that are the reason for people going up there, not think of ways to stop people.
As an example of why my shopping will be done in Eniskillen/Belfast/Newry in the coming weeks:

e.g. In a well know clothes shop on Grafton St (its name is that of a tropical storm) yesterday Maude Flanders was llooking at an item that was priced in both pounds and euro.....£110 and €170. All might seem fine until you do a quick conversion of £110 using the current exchange rate.....€129.06. 

How can the minister explain almost a €41 difference? Why would you not shop in the North when one purchase immediately covers petrol and eating out for lunch?? 

Other stores are much more sneaky and remove the sterling prices/cover them up so we cannot see how much we are being overcharged by compared to our NI and UK counteparts. 

Similarly the *Irish *Daily Star....I bought a copy at 60p in when I was in BallyCastle in Antrim a month ago, that equates to 70c. But low and behond, us mugs down here at paying €1.35 for it.....again HOW is that justifiable? 

BTW is outside the bounds of possibility to attempt to pay the £ price since the store left it on it? I had a bit of sterling in my pocket and was tempted to try it.....


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## micmclo (24 Nov 2008)

FLANDERS` said:


> e.g. In a well know clothes shop on Grafton St (its name is that of a tropical storm) yesterday Maude Flanders was llooking at an item that was priced in both pounds and euro.....£110 and €170. All might seem fine until you do a quick conversion of £110 using the current exchange rate.....€129.06.



It's clear you're talking about Monsoon, just name the store, you're not exactly naming and shaming it.



FLANDERS` said:


> BTW is outside the bounds of possibility to attempt to pay the £ price since the store left it on it? I had a bit of sterling in my pocket and was tempted to try it.....



You already know the answer to this. Don't make some shop assistants life difficult, it's not their fault. 
Talk to management if you don't like the price



FLANDERS` said:


> Similarly the *Irish *Daily Star....I bought a copy at 60p in when I was in BallyCastle in Antrim a month ago, that equates to 70c. But low and behond, us mugs down here at paying €1.35 for it.....again HOW is that justifiable?



You deserve for buying a rag like the Star! 
A lot of newspapers do this, the Irish Times and Irish Independant certainly do it as the UK and NI are not their main market plus there might be the two main papers here but there's huge competition in the UK.

But then is the Star even an Irish paper?
For sure the Irish Daily Mail and the Irish Sun are basically the same version of the paper with maybe some different stories and different sports. But realy just the same paper. There's even a Scottish Sun
So that's more of an example of profiteering


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## ubiquitous (24 Nov 2008)

FLANDERS` said:


> [broken link removed]
> 
> Really not happy with this drivel out of the government. They need to make shopping attractive in ROI BY* REDUCING RIDICULOUS PRICES* .



Fair enough. Would you support a move on their part to cut wages here by 15% or so, in return?

ps please don't shout.


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## z104 (24 Nov 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> Fair enough. Would you support a move on their part to cut wages here by 15% or so, in return?
> 
> ps please don't shout.


 
No, I would not take a pay cut. I think it's easier to take our high wages down here and spend them over the border


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## Sunny (24 Nov 2008)

I loved this line from Gormley.

_Speaking to reporters in Dublin today, the minister said it was important for Ireland the UK to ensure their actions are "in sync" to ensure neither gains a competitive advantage._

I guess we shouldn't mention Corporation tax then. The guy and his party are a complete waste of space.


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## ubiquitous (24 Nov 2008)

Niallers said:


> No, I would not take a pay cut. I think it's easier to take our high wages down here and spend them over the border



Grand, once you're happy not to whinge about it. From what I see, too many others want to have their cake and eat it.


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## Guest128 (24 Nov 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> Fair enough. Would you support a move on their part to cut wages here by 15% or so, in return?
> ps please don't shout.



Well the forum is called Letting off Steam 

If you were to take 15% off the €170 it's still only €145!! Still far above the conversion rate. I'm not saying shops should not make a profit, thats just silly. But there has to be some give and take. What is annoying is that its not right for the minister to insinuate that its entirely the consumer's fault that they are going to the North when retailers are garnering huge profits and the government seems blissfully unaware (or else dont care).


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## Ciaraella (24 Nov 2008)

I was in a shop yesterday on Grafton Street where a British customer (judging by accent) was told by a shop assistant that she could pay the sterling price on an item using sterling, this doesn't seem fair to me, surely then we could argue to pay the sterling price by credit card if it was the case that we could choose which price to pay?


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## z104 (24 Nov 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> Grand, once you're happy not to whinge about it. From what I see, too many others want to have their cake and eat it.


 

I never quiet got this phrase.

If you had a cake, why wouldn't you want to eat it


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## Guest128 (24 Nov 2008)

Ciaraella said:


> I was in a shop yesterday on Grafton Street where a British customer (judging by accent) was told by a shop assistant that she could pay the sterling price on an item using sterling, this doesn't seem fair to me, surely then we could argue to pay the sterling price by credit card if it was the case that we could choose which price to pay?



That is what I was thinking, when I said was it worth a shot. All they can say is no and all I can say then is OK and leave the item back. Its not something I really thought much about before, just I had the sterling and with the price difference....


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## Guest128 (24 Nov 2008)

Niallers said:


> I never quiet got this phrase.
> 
> If you had a cake, why wouldn't you want to eat it



Ditto.....should it not be "eat your cake and still have it afterwards"


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## ubiquitous (24 Nov 2008)

FLANDERS` said:


> Well the forum is called Letting off Steam



Why are you confused? LOS is a discussion forum, which invariably means that opinions expressed here are discussed, analysed and sometimes criticised. 

To take a different example, if I make a racist comment here, I cannot then claim that my comment should be immune from criticism as the forum is called Letting off Steam.


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## ubiquitous (24 Nov 2008)

Niallers said:


> I never quiet got this phrase.
> 
> If you had a cake, why wouldn't you want to eat it




Me neither. You're right.


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## Guest128 (24 Nov 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> Why are you confused? LOS is a discussion forum, which invariably means that opinions expressed here are discussed, analysed and sometimes criticised.
> 
> To take a different example, if I make a racist comment here, I cannot then claim that its okay to do so as the forum is called Letting off Steam.



Obviously, but racism is offensive everywhere!......putting the words "Reduce ridiculous prices" in capitals hardly offended the entire country! 

I was under the impression that LOS was a _slightly _lighter discussion forum where you discussed things that annoy you and and I was annoyed when I posted. Sometimes I let off steam by shouting, its quite therapeutic. If I had the minister here right now I'd probably shout at him too!

I am perfectly aware of email etiquette etc. regarding shouting so I apologise if you took offense.


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## ubiquitous (24 Nov 2008)

You still didn't answer my question 

"Would you support a move on their part to cut wages here by 15% or so, in return?"



FLANDERS` said:


> What is annoying is that its not right for the minister to insinuate that its entirely the consumer's fault that they are going to the North* when retailers are garnering huge profits* and the government seems blissfully unaware (or else dont care).



If you buy any newspaper today (yes, even _the Star_  ) you will quickly learn that far from "garnering huge profits", the ROI retail sector is in dire trouble, and is ready to shed large numbers of jobs in the coming months.



FLANDERS` said:


> I am perfectly aware of email etiquette etc. regarding shouting so I apologise if you took offense.



Don't worry, you didn't offend me, its just that users are requested in the posting guidelines to refrain from shouting, as it is "considered at best hard to read and at worst rude "


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## Guest128 (24 Nov 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> You still didn't answer my question
> 
> "Would you support a move on their part to cut wages here by 15% or so, in return?"
> 
> ...



LOL, actually the guideline title is
"Please don't post a subject or message in ALL UPPER CASE CHARACTERS"

so its a matter of opinion if I am in breach of any guideline 

Regarding the 15% question....no. If I take a 15% cut then the shop would need to reduce the cost of the item by 15%+ to make any difference and  I just don't we would see that and prices wouldnt drop at the same rate. 

5 years ago people would almost laugh if you said you shopped in Lidl/Aldi, now its very prevalent, if not the norm in many households, so consumer spending is at an all major low. Cutting wages by 15% will not help, as not all costs are driven by wages. Granted in small/medium business it is a major factor, but for large chains like Monsoon (there I said it!!) etc. there is an unacceptable level of profiteering and I dont think people should have to take a wage cut to iron it out.


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## ubiquitous (24 Nov 2008)

FLANDERS` said:


> LOL, actually the guideline title is
> "Please don't post a subject or message in ALL UPPER CASE CHARACTERS"
> 
> so its a matter of opinion if I am in breach of any guideline



If you read the guideline, not its title, you might come to a different conclusion. Anyway we'll move on.


FLANDERS` said:


> Regarding the 15% question....no. If I take a 15% cut then the shop would need to reduce the cost of the item by 15%+ to make any difference and  I just don't we would see that and prices wouldnt drop at the same rate.


Which came first, the chicken or the egg?


> not all costs are driven by wages.


No, but most are, in some shape or form.



> but for large chains like Monsoon (there I said it!!) etc. there is an unacceptable level of profiteering



How come this does not apply in the UK, where most of their trade is? Btw, most high-street chains are struggling badly in the UK as well, hence the VAT cut over there.


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## TarfHead (24 Nov 2008)

Deputy Gormley is evidently learning from spending time in Government with Fianna Fáil. That is a classic FF approach '_someone really should do something about that_'.

There is a serious issue here. Hundreds or thousands of individual purchasing decisions are benefitting the UK economy, at the cost of the welfare of Irish people. Irish people are very adept at disconnecting between cause and effect when it suits their purpose. There would be no drug gangs without a demand for drugs, yet there are people in this country who think that a weekend toot up the nose in Dublin is unconnected to murders in Limerick.

That is not to attempt to establish an equivalence between the drugs trade, and cross-border shopping, rather to illustrate a the point made above.

Spending thousands, or tens of thousands, on goods in the North impacts upon VAT revenues in our country. Without, or facing a reduction in, VAT revenues means cutting public services. There has to be some level of causality between cross-border shopping and public service cutbacks.

As documented in the active thread on boards.ie on shopping in Northern Ireland, the amount of spirits that people are claiming to buy in the North is creating a liver damage timebomb for this country in the future !

Comparing UK prices to EUR, at the current market rate, is a specious argument.

Comparing the price of an item in Grafton Street, with something that could be bought in Newry (and an implict assumption that the underlying costs of business in each location are the same) is also a specious argument.


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## z105 (24 Nov 2008)

> Govt ‘will have to stem flow of shoppers across border’



Was it not Mary Harney who told us to "shop around"?


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## Sunny (24 Nov 2008)

TarfHead said:


> Deputy Gormley is evidently learning from spending time in Government with Fianna Fáil. That is a classic FF approach '_someone really should do something about that_'.
> 
> There is a serious issue here. Hundreds or thousands of individual purchasing decisions are benefitting the UK economy, at the cost of the welfare of Irish people. Irish people are very adept at disconnecting between cause and effect when it suits their purpose. There would be no drug gangs without a demand for drugs, yet there are people in this country who think that a weekend toot up the nose in Dublin is unconnected to murders in Limerick.
> 
> ...


 
I am sorry but I can't agree. People are doing nothing wrong by going up North to do the shopping. If we are to use your argument then Ireland should be made raise their corporation tax or else companies should be stoped from ploughing profits through here at the expense of other Countries tax revenues. Would you like to see that happen? Its a free market and it is up to businesses here and the government to react and make us more competitive. The Government didn't exactly help by raising VAT and sticking more duty on wine for example.


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## Guest128 (24 Nov 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> How come this does not apply in the UK, where most of their trade is? Btw, most high-street chains are struggling badly in the UK as well, hence the VAT cut over there.



I dont think they'd get away with it in the UK. Alot of Irish people will pay whatever is there and are afraid to question anything. Its a culture thing.


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## ubiquitous (24 Nov 2008)

FLANDERS` said:


> I dont think they'd get away with it in the UK. A lot of Irish people will pay whatever is there and are afraid to question anything. Its a culture thing.



Fair enough if you subscribe to the thesis that "the paddies are an inferior species" but I don't believe for a moment that Irish consumers are stupider, more "afraid" or less assertive than their UK counterparts. 

The negative experiences in Ireland of some retailers like Harvey Norman and the success of other, more value-geared, outfits like Lidl & Aldi would seem to indicate that Irish consumers are more discerning and selective than you given them credit for.


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## ninsaga (24 Nov 2008)

FLANDERS` said:


> Ditto.....should it not be "eat your cake and still have it afterwards"



How much did the cake cost in Newry by the way


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## Guest128 (24 Nov 2008)

Just chatting to a friend of mine at work here who says her mate orders/buys clothes from the North with the sole intention of returning them in the South for the increased refund!


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## micmclo (24 Nov 2008)

TarfHead said:


> Spending thousands, or tens of thousands, on goods in the North impacts upon VAT revenues in our country. Without, or facing a reduction in, VAT revenues means cutting public services. There has to be some level of causality between cross-border shopping and public service cutbacks.



You are correct of course but everyone pays income tax (or most people do ) so if Irish business want our custom they'll have to fight for it. We've already paid income tax so we are certainly under no obligation to buy here, PAYE & PRSI was the "patriotic duty" and it ends there.

And if the government wanted to do something why do we hear of so many people coming back from shopping trips from New York and customs do nothing? There is an easy target if they want to try and raise some cash.
Sure people almost laugh at customs as they take all labels off the new clothes and claim that ipod was brought over the outward trip.



FLANDERS` said:


> 5 years ago people would almost laugh if you said you shopped in Lidl/Aldi, .



You must have classier friends then I do, I've never heard this before.
Laughing at where you shop??
Are the likes of Superquinn for a more discerning type of shopper?
Not aimed at you Flanders, I'm just surprised, genuinely hadn't heard of this ever

Must be the same people who carry around Brown Thomas bags but hadn't actually shopped there recently.....


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## mf1 (24 Nov 2008)

"We've already paid income tax so we are certainly under no obligation to buy here, PAYE & PRSI was the "patriotic duty" and it ends there."

I have this vision of people who are happy to earn their wages in the South, spend their wages in the North and wonder why our economy is going down the toilet? Oh yes, and if it will ever affect them? 

Thats the thing, by all means we have to try and be more competitive but it costs more to run a business in this jurisdiction and we all share a responsibility for shoring up our own economy. If we all can't see it and assume, somehow, that the economy is something that other people are involved in or that affects other people only, we may as well close all our shops, hospitals, prisons, schools etc.,etc. How do we all think these services are paid for? 

mf


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## Purple (24 Nov 2008)

mf1 said:


> "We've already paid income tax so we are certainly under no obligation to buy here, PAYE & PRSI was the "patriotic duty" and it ends there."
> 
> I have this vision of people who are happy to earn their wages in the South, spend their wages in the North and wonder why our economy is going down the toilet? Oh yes, and if it will ever affect them?
> 
> ...



All very true but I can see how a person who just lost their job has a problem spending that extra % to pay for public sector pay increases and first class flights to Florida.


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## mf1 (24 Nov 2008)

Purple said:


> All very true but I can see how a person who just lost their job has a problem spending that extra % to pay for public sector pay increases and first class flights to Florida.




Of course. I do see that. But us all going shopping in Norn Iron is not going to help our own economy. And none of the posters seem that strapped - its almost a triumphalist, Yah Booh Hiss kind of mentality. 

So there. 



mf


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## Purple (24 Nov 2008)

mf1 said:


> Of course. I do see that. But us all going shopping in Norn Iron is not going to help our own economy. And none of the posters seem that strapped - its almost a triumphalist, Yah Booh Hiss kind of mentality.
> 
> So there.
> 
> ...


I agree that the tone is not good on this thread but it would help our economy more if the government lowered taxes and paid for it by wasting less of our money.


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## reds (24 Nov 2008)

micmclo said:


> You deserve for buying a rag like the Star!
> A lot of newspapers do this, the Irish Times and Irish Independant certainly do it as the UK and NI are not their main market plus there might be the two main papers here but there's huge competition in the UK.
> 
> But then is the Star even an Irish paper?
> ...



The VAT on newspapers and magazines is what pushes the price up in the Republic of Ireland compared to the UK. Same goes for books.

The Star is an Irish newspaper, HQ is in Terenure as far as I know.


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## Complainer (24 Nov 2008)

FLANDERS` said:


> Just chatting to a friend of mine at work here who says her mate orders/buys clothes from the North with the sole intention of returning them in the South for the increased refund!


So I guess none of the shops look for receipts then?


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## NOAH (24 Nov 2008)

*Re: Govt ‘will have to stem flow of shoppers across border’*

Its a fact of life that everything here is dearer than the UK apart from diesel/petrol. And anyone who is close to the border will be well aware of that fact.  I bet a lot of garages on the border do a roaring trade from the north, its just a fact of life.  The savings are too ast to be ignored.  If the mark up was in the region of 10% then I could live with it but most of the mark ups are 30% or more.

noah


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## Guest128 (25 Nov 2008)

Complainer said:


> So I guess none of the shops look for receipts then?



I would have assumed they would. Maybe the shop just sees it as being a return to them, I don't know. Obviously they aren't that strict or this would be a pointless exercise! I am simply relaying something I found interesting regarding the original thread subject.


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## Celtwytch (25 Nov 2008)

FLANDERS` said:


> I would have assumed they would. Maybe the shop just sees it as being a return to them, I don't know. Obviously they aren't that strict or this would be a pointless exercise! I am simply relaying something I found interesting regarding the original thread subject.


 
The big UK chains don't seem to have a problem exchanging/refunding items that have been bought in branches in a different country.  Well, exchanging, at least - I have often bought clothes in M&S or Debenhams here, for family in the UK, and they have had no problems exchanging for different sizes.


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## dereko1969 (25 Nov 2008)

reds said:


> Same goes for books.


 
books are zero rated both here and the UK.

one reason why i occasionally take a trip oop north to shop in sainsbury is the greater range of both vegetarian products (such as quorn) and british ales that are not as readily available down here. the prices are lower but that's not the sole reason for going there.


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## cork (25 Nov 2008)

I think that multiples should be named and shamed.

They are been left off the hook by media and consumer organisations


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## bamboozle (25 Nov 2008)

According to the Indo, Sainsbury's in Newry sell the most alcaholic products out of all its stores worldwide!!!!


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## elefantfresh (25 Nov 2008)

The only way this government will do anything about the price difference is when so many people keep going north or online or whatever that the retailers here actually get up and activly lobby the government to do something. The retails are very slow to lower their prices due to "insurance costs, wages, cost of doing business here etc blah blah blah" we're listening to that for years. Not long ago we were told to shop around. Now we're told we're unpatriotic. I have no problem paying 20-30% less for something abroad. I quite recently spent 400e on some musical equipment online from a SHOP (not a warehouse) in the UK - the same item in a Dublin music store was 700e - honest to goodness, why on earth would i have bought that in Dublin? I had the same issue a couple of years ago and even rang the shop in Dublin to tell them the difference in price and that i'd prefer to purchase it here - i was told they couldnt match it and that was that. It wasnt even a case of matching it, they were miles off the price.
I for one wont listen to the "cost of doing business" blab, i am not unpatriotic. I am using my rights as a european to purchase from wherever i feel i'm getting the best deal. We've been robbed in this country for far too long. You can go and purchase whatever you like wherever you like. I know what i'm doing and i am NOT unpatriotic.
Rant over.


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## Guest128 (25 Nov 2008)

elefantfresh said:


> The only way this government will do anything about the price difference is when so many people keep going north or online or whatever that the retailers here actually get up and activly lobby the government to do something. The retails are very slow to lower their prices due to "insurance costs, wages, cost of doing business here etc blah blah blah" we're listening to that for years. Not long ago we were told to shop around. Now we're told we're unpatriotic. I have no problem paying 20-30% less for something abroad. I quite recently spent 400e on some musical equipment online from a SHOP (not a warehouse) in the UK - the same item in a Dublin music store was 700e - honest to goodness, why on earth would i have bought that in Dublin? I had the same issue a couple of years ago and even rang the shop in Dublin to tell them the difference in price and that i'd prefer to purchase it here - i was told they couldnt match it and that was that. It wasnt even a case of matching it, they were miles off the price.
> I for one wont listen to the "cost of doing business" blab, i am not unpatriotic. I am using my rights as a european to purchase from wherever i feel i'm getting the best deal. We've been robbed in this country for far too long. You can go and purchase whatever you like wherever you like. I know what i'm doing and i am NOT unpatriotic.
> Rant over.



I heartily endorse the above product and (or) service, ElephantFresh!


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## mf1 (25 Nov 2008)

"I am using my rights as a european to purchase from wherever i feel i'm getting the best deal. We've been robbed in this country for far too long. You can go and purchase whatever you like wherever you like. I know what i'm doing and i am NOT unpatriotic."

"I heartily endorse the above product and (or) service, ElephantFresh!"


Thats just fine and dandy. But do remember that every time you do that, you are adding to the woes of our own economy. It is not rocket science. Unless consumers spend in their own economy, they themselves each and every one of them personally are part of our economic problem and downturn. So less services, less jobs, less social welfare.................. 

mf


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## ubiquitous (25 Nov 2008)

elefantfresh said:


> The retails are very slow to lower their prices due to "insurance costs, wages, cost of doing business here etc blah blah blah" we're listening to that for years.



If ROI retailers cut their wages to NI levels, they will be prosecuted for breaching minimum wage legislation. 

They can only cut their insurance costs by opting not to insure, a false economy if there ever was one given our compo culture and the generosity of our courts.

If they knowingly trade at a loss, the ODCE will be after them for reckless trading.

What else do you propose?


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## DerKaiser (25 Nov 2008)

Facts as I see them are:

*Buying down here leads to the following:*
VAT collected will ultimately be distributed to the citizens to this country
Wages are paid to people in this country who will most likely spend them in this country
Profits will go to the owners (whomever they may be) less 12.5% tax which will be distributed in this country

*Buying up north leads to the following:*
VAT collected will ultimately be distributed to the citizens to the UK (only 1.5m out of 60m of them live on this Island)
Wages are paid to people in the North 
Profits will go to the owners (whomever they may be) less tax which will be distributed in the UK

As far as I'm concerned any individual can do as they wish but collectively by spending up north, in new york, etc, we're impoverishing our own economy.  Jobs will be lost and public services will be cut.  

Maybe this is what we need to become competitive again.

On a separate point. We've heard the stories of people wheeling huge trolley's of booze from newry supermarkets into southern reg cars.  I can't help but think that people are seeing what they believe to be bargains and buying for the sake of it.  It's the old greed raising it's head again i.e. if others are benefitting from cheap good in the North then I'm losing out by not doing the same


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## Purple (25 Nov 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> If ROI retailers cut their wages to NI levels, they will be prosecuted for breaching minimum wage legislation.
> 
> They can only cut their insurance costs by opting not to insure, a false economy if there ever was one given our compo culture and the generosity of our courts.
> 
> ...




Correct: If people want lower prices then we need to cut our cost base to NI levels. Hands up who is in favour of lowering the minimum wage?
Now that property prices and building costs have gone down insurance should also drop, however with the credit crunch this might not happen.


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## elefantfresh (25 Nov 2008)

> What else do you propose?



I havnt got a freakin clue! I have absolutly no idea how to go about fixing this - thats not my job to know how. All i know is that for the last couple of "larger" purchases that i have made it isnt far off double the price to do that here. Until the people i PAY to sort this out, actuallly DO sort it out, then i will continue doing what i do.
Do you honestly believe that the majority of people on here would have spent 700e instead of 400e for the same product???? I certainly dont believe that. Dont get me wrong, i would much prefer to keep the money here but not at a cost to my pocket at that huge difference in price. People on here would be calling me an idiot if i was paying almost double by choice!
If the retailers here got even close to the competition then i would quite happlily keep my money here.


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## Purple (25 Nov 2008)

But the retailers have to operate within the cost base that this economy offers, they have no choice. That’s the point being made; don’t blame them for high prices because it’s not their fault. A 6% VAT differential, higher wages, higher insurance, higher rates, higher indirect taxes, higher cost of services, higher cost of utilities etc etc etc... you get the point?

In order to compete with a lower cost economy we need to lower out costs or increase our level of productivity (preferable both) but in the retail sector increasing productivity is hard to do as so many of the costs are beyond their control.


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## elefantfresh (25 Nov 2008)

> ... you get the point?



He he! I get you Purple. And everytime i watch Q+A or Primetime or any such program we get the same sort of answers. And you're right i'm sure. But, the fact remains - my musical equipment was not too far off half price. What should i have done? Paid the extra and kept my money here?


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## Purple (25 Nov 2008)

No, you should buy what you want from whomever you want... but you should also vote for whatever party proposes lowering the cost base in the next election. That’s about all you (or most of us) can do.


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## Caveat (25 Nov 2008)

Then there's the likes of me - I live so close to NI that I would actually be going out of my way to shop in the republic (!)

When faced with inconvenience _and_ usually higher prices it's a no-brainer for me really. But again, for people in my geographical position, shopping in NI is not a recent phenomenon.


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## Guest128 (25 Nov 2008)

Purple said:


> No, you should buy what you want from whomever you want... but you should also vote for whatever party proposes lowering the cost base in the next election. That’s about all you (or most of us) can do.



What if you don't vote?? *Dives for cover*


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## DerKaiser (25 Nov 2008)

elefantfresh said:


> Until the people i PAY to sort this out, actually DO sort it out, then i will continue doing what i do.


Just don't be surprised when the problem lands on your door.  The VAT you pay isn't just for Brian Cowen's wages, it's for schools, roads, hospitals, old age pensions, etc.
As a nation we can decide to vote no to things that benefit us, we can purchase goods abroad, we can go on strike.  We think we're teaching the policticians a lesson????  The government is probably there until 2012.
I work in the financial sector.  I can see pretty clearly how this will impact me.  Retail businesses fall, retail jobs are lost, insurance business falls, pensions and investments business falls, financial services employees lose their jobs, it becomes a vicious circle


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## Purple (25 Nov 2008)

DerKaiser said:


> Just don't be surprised when the problem lands on your door.  The VAT you pay isn't just for Brian Cowen's wages, it's for schools, roads, hospitals, old age pensions, etc.
> As a nation we can decide to vote no to things that benefit us, we can purchase goods abroad, we can go on strike.  We think we're teaching the policticians a lesson????  The government is probably there until 2012.
> I work in the financial sector.  I can see pretty clearly how this will impact me.  Retail businesses fall, retail jobs are lost, insurance business falls, pensions and investments business falls, financial services employees lose their jobs, it becomes a vicious circle



The real solution is to look for value for the taxes we pay. Decreasing taxes by 10% won’t impact on services if there is a 10% increase in efficiency. The same thing applies in reverse; if we increase taxes by 10% and productivity is reduced by 10% then we are no better off. This can be seen clearly in the health service; spending up will over 200% in the last few years, employees up well over 100%, and only a marginal improvement in services.


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## Sunny (25 Nov 2008)

DerKaiser said:


> I work in the financial sector. I can see pretty clearly how this will impact me. Retail businesses fall, retail jobs are lost, insurance business falls, pensions and investments business falls, financial services employees lose their jobs, it becomes a vicious circle


 
I work in the financial sector as well and to be honest as I said before we don't seem to have a problem attracting foreign capital at the expense of other country's tax take so why is it any different that individuals take advantage of lower tax and favourable exchange rates. My company is sitting here in the IFSC paying 12.5% tax compared to our parents tax rate of 38%. Is that wrong as well?

The argument about making the Republic of Ireland as competitive as the UK is a valid but seperate argument. Let the Government do something about spiralling energy costs, infrastructure, wages (Minimum wage needs to be looked at) etc. 

The cost base in this country and help for small business needs to be examined. Instead we waste our time calling for people to be patriotic and pay more than what we can pay elsewhere. By the way has anyone considered that the money saved by shopping in the North probably helps other areas of the economy down South. Retailers and the Government might not be happy but maybe I will decide to spend what I saved on a night out in a restaurant instead of spending it all in the shop down South.


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## Purple (25 Nov 2008)

Sunny said:


> I work in the financial sector as well and to be honest as I said before we don't seem to have a problem attracting foreign capital at the expense of other country's tax take so why is it any different that individuals take advantage of lower tax and favourable exchange rates. My company is sitting here in the IFSC paying 12.5% tax compared to our parents tax rate of 38%. Is that wrong as well?
> 
> The argument about making the Republic of Ireland as competitive as the UK is a valid but seperate argument. Let the Government do something about spiralling energy costs, infrastructure, wages (Minimum wage needs to be looked at) etc.
> 
> The cost base in this country and help for small business needs to be examined. Instead we waste our time calling for people to be patriotic and pay more than what we can pay elsewhere. By the way has anyone considered that the money saved by shopping in the North probably helps other areas of the economy down South. Retailers and the Government might not be happy but maybe I will decide to spend what I saved on a night out in a restaurant instead of spending it all in the shop down South.



Excellent post


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## Caveat (25 Nov 2008)

Purple said:


> Excellent post


 
+1

(Wish I'd thought of it)


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## michaelm (25 Nov 2008)

Purple said:


> Hands up who is in favour of lowering the minimum wage?


Either scrap the minimum wage or set it equal to the dole.  I'm in favour of cutting CT, VAT & Employer PRSI.


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## DerKaiser (25 Nov 2008)

Sunny said:


> I work in the financial sector as well and to be honest as I said before we don't seem to have a problem attracting foreign capital at the expense of other country's tax take so why is it any different that individuals take advantage of lower tax and favourable exchange rates. My company is sitting here in the IFSC paying 12.5% tax compared to our parents tax rate of 38%. Is that wrong as well?
> 
> The argument about making the Republic of Ireland as competitive as the UK is a valid but seperate argument. Let the Government do something about spiralling energy costs, infrastructure, wages (Minimum wage needs to be looked at) etc.
> 
> The cost base in this country and help for small business needs to be examined. Instead we waste our time calling for people to be patriotic and pay more than what we can pay elsewhere. By the way has anyone considered that the money saved by shopping in the North probably helps other areas of the economy down South. Retailers and the Government might not be happy but maybe I will decide to spend what I saved on a night out in a restaurant instead of spending it all in the shop down South.


 
I haven't said there's anything wrong with going up north.  

I'm just making the practical point that spending up North is draining our own exchequer from which public spending is funded.  

No doubt the exchequer has benefitted from the low corporation tax regime in the past

No doubt the fact that these benefits were distributed back in the form of public sector wage increases has made us uncompetitive.

Ultimately economics will dictate that prices between here and up north will have to come to an equilibrium no matter how "patriotic" we try to be.

Collectively though we are taking food from our own mouths in the short term.  It probably needs to be done to restore competitiveness, but collectively we can't go blaming "government" for job losses.  It is we who are putting ourselves out of jobs and instigating the drive towards a more competitve economy


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## zag (25 Nov 2008)

Would it help if people buying in Newry bought only Irish manufactured goods ?

Food (as purchased in supermarkets) is zero rated for VAT here, so there is no differential to be accounted for in this context.

Ireland is not the only country in Europe to share a border with another country - we are not unique in having to contend with different cost bases across the border, yet the others seem to get on OK with this.  I'm sure some countries have regional initiatives or other compensation plans for certain industries or retailers in border regions.

And finally, no matter what other factors are in play here, it is human nature for most people to seek out the best use for a scarce resource like money.  It is simply not logical for an individual with limited money (like you and me) to seek to better the economy on an ongoing basis by consistently spending more money than is required to purchase a commodity like food.  Most people will view the trade-off as being between their families wellbeing and that of society and will come down in favour of their family.  When money is relatively easy to come by (like it was for the last few years) people do not feel the pressure on their family wellbeing and so may be prepared to spend more than required, but as soon as money supplies are restricted this is bound to change.

z


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## Complainer (26 Nov 2008)

Celtwytch said:


> The big UK chains don't seem to have a problem exchanging/refunding items that have been bought in branches in a different country.  Well, exchanging, at least - I have often bought clothes in M&S or Debenhams here, for family in the UK, and they have had no problems exchanging for different sizes.


There is a big difference between exchanging and refunding. I don't believe that M&S et al will refund liberally without a receipt (showing the currency paid).


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## Celtwytch (26 Nov 2008)

Complainer said:


> There is a big difference between exchanging and refunding. I don't believe that M&S et al will refund liberally without a receipt (showing the currency paid).


 
Which is why I made it clear that I only have experience of exchanging items, rather than getting refunds.  They probably would have an issue with refunding items purchased in a different currency.


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## rabbit (26 Nov 2008)

Purple said:


> Correct: If people want lower prices then we need to cut our cost base to NI levels. Hands up who is in favour of lowering the minimum wage?


 
ok, but do not forget those higher up too. Reducing minimum wage by 10% will not save very much. However, every business needs accouinants to do its books, annual returns etc. How about cutting their hourly rate by say 20 or 30 euro ? Also of course the public service pay rates should be reduced drastically....given the security + perks of such jobs, why should they be paid so much more than the private sector ?

A lot of changes, from the pay rate of the teeshock down, need to be implemented.   We are the laughing stock of the world paying him more than the president of the US, Germany , France etc....all much much bigger , industrialised countries.   Our other president costs a packet too - give her the average industrial wage, she has enough other perks.


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## ubiquitous (26 Nov 2008)

rabbit said:


> ok, but do not forget those higher up too. Reducing minimum wage by 10% will not save very much. However, every business needs accouinants to do its books, annual returns etc. How about cutting their hourly rate by say 20 or 30 euro ? Also of course the public service pay rates should be reduced drastically....given the security + perks of such jobs, why should they be paid so much more than the private sector ?
> 
> A lot of changes, from the pay rate of the teeshock down, need to be implemented.   We are the laughing stock of the world paying him more than the president of the US, Germany , France etc....all much much bigger , industrialised countries.   Our other president costs a packet too - give her the average industrial wage, she has enough other perks.



I don't think any of us could disagree with any of the above proposals. 

That said, any labour-intensive business that slashes the prices of its output without also reducing the cost of its input, ie labour, won't stay in business for long. And how many employees, with mortgages to pay and families to feed, will happily consent to pay cuts? That is the catch-22.


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## orka (26 Nov 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> how many employees, with mortgages to pay and families to feed, will happily consent to pay cuts?


 The ones who will otherwise lose their jobs?

I'm sure if you asked anybody who has just been made redundant if they would take their old job back at 90% of the pay, they would say yes.  Unfortunately, people often don't realise that that may be the stark choice and baulk at the thought of a pay cut.


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## ubiquitous (26 Nov 2008)

orka said:


> Unfortunately, people often don't realise that that may be the stark choice and baulk at the thought of a pay cut.



My point exactly.


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## rabbit (26 Nov 2008)

I would have thought many self employed people ( except perhaps people in professions like Doctors etc etc , or people self  employed in vital services etc ) may have seen their take home pay reduce by 10% or more this year....not just the self employed building tradesperson , but the the solicitor, the auctioneer, the architect, the painter, the the person who  sells cars, furniture, boats, luxury items, the shopkeeper next to the border, the person who used to make breakfast rolls etc etc.   A lot of people I know wish they were only down 10%.


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## Purple (26 Nov 2008)

rabbit said:


> I would have thought many self employed people ( except perhaps people in professions like Doctors etc etc , or people self  employed in vital services etc ) may have seen their take home pay reduce by 10% or more this year....not just the self employed building tradesperson , but the the solicitor, the auctioneer, the architect, the painter, the the person who  sells cars, furniture, boats, luxury items, the shopkeeper next to the border, the person who used to make breakfast rolls etc etc.   A lot of people I know wish they were only down 10%.


Agree completely.


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## NorthDrum (26 Nov 2008)

Maybe I am being completely idealistic here but is it fair to say that a person taking home 300k should be taking significantly higher decreases in salary in comparison to the person talking home 30k.

To say both should take 10% drop is not even remotely taking into consideration the effects that these paycuts will have on simple family pleasures like a mortgage ! ! Really these "universal" pay decreases are not fair in the overall context of how they effect those in differant salary bands, that is ultimately the main reason why nobody who is on the shorter end of the salary scale will feel obliged to take any paycut.

The problem is that no matter what happens, it will always be the working man that foots the bill or pays the hardest earned price, for mistakes that generally come from those in privelaged positions who got us there in the first place!!


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## Upstihaggity (28 Nov 2008)

I'm all for saving a few pennies by heading up north for shopping - then I read this ([broken link removed]) and am starting to wonder if its worth it if it makes the likes of Peter Robinson happy!!


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## Guest128 (28 Nov 2008)

I still think its laughable that the government are using this "Patriotic" stance to get people to shop in the ROI. They seem to have forgotten the fact that Fianna Fáil was founded by Anti-Treaty activists, lead by Éamon de Valera, who did not want to break up our island. One of the main ideologies of FF was a united Ireland, yet when it suits them they now decide to drop the North and claim its unpatriotic to shop up there. I suggest they read up on their history.


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## michaelm (28 Nov 2008)

FLANDERS` said:


> I still think its laughable that the government are using this "Patriotic" stance to get people to shop in the ROI.


I've never done a shopping run up North but soon I'll have to do so to buy lightbulbs and will probably fill my car with other goods while I'm there.


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## Caveat (28 Nov 2008)

michaelm said:


> I've never done a shopping run up North but soon I'll have to do so to buy light bulbs and will probably fill my car with other goods while I'm there.


 
Lightbulbs?! 

I'm intrigued - is there some sort of cryptic message in there michaelm or is it a genuine intention to shop?


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## Firefly (28 Nov 2008)

Caveat said:


> Lightbulbs?!
> 
> I'm intrigued - is there some sort of cryptic message in there michaelm or is it a genuine intention to shop?


 
Yes, do throw some light on the topic


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## michaelm (28 Nov 2008)

Caveat said:


> I'm intrigued - is there some sort of cryptic message in there . .


Nothing cryptic .  I have a mix of CFL and traditional bulbs in my house, where appropriate.  A gormless environ*mental* decision means that shortly I''ll only be able to get CFLs in this great little Republic of ours (are we the first country in the world to ban the lightbulb?) so I'll probably spin up to Newry when I need some and while there see what all the fuss is about re prices.


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## Guest128 (28 Nov 2008)

michaelm said:


> are we the first country in the world to ban the lightbulb?.



We are trend settings, first the plastic bags, now this


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## Mpsox (1 Dec 2008)

So it's unpatriotic to go shopping in the North

Does that mean the Irish Govt will be stopping all the Northern cars coming down south to fill up with petrol, giving back the stamp duty paid and taxes paid by all the Northeners who own holiday homes in Donegal and telling Aer Lingus to move it's new base from Belfast back to Shannon.? 

And they want us to be patriotic and shop at home and yet vote for Lisbon which exists to bring Europe closer together?

If anything, inane comments from our hypocritical Minister of Finance only encourages me to go North


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## ubiquitous (1 Dec 2008)

michaelm said:


> (are we the first country in the world to ban the lightbulb?)





FLANDERS` said:


> We are trend settings, first the plastic bags, now this



And Gripe Water ...

And St John's Wort...

And (now) Bedsits...

And ...?

At this rate, we'll soon be banning things as often as we did in the 1950s. Come back Archbishop McQuaid, all is forgiven.


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## elefantfresh (1 Dec 2008)

Seems that there was an 11km tailback getting into Newry on Saturday. A woman on the radio said she got a computer up there for 300e which was 500e down here - hard to argue that sort of discount.
I think Supervalu or Superquinn were doing a "cheaper than Newry" weekend. Seems like they're able to drop some prices when it suits them.


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## csirl (1 Dec 2008)

Playing devils advocate about shopping up north:

1. People are not going there due to the VAT rate - not worth the trip for the majority of people for a small saving in VAT.

2. For a lot of people living in the border areas, shopping centres in the north are the nearer than those in e.g. Dublin. 

3. A lot of the price differences are down to the recent collapse of sterling. There tends to be a time lag with prices, particularly consumer items, as many suppliers only review their prices annually. Due to the currency collapse, the price of all imported consumer goods being sold in UK should rise by approx. 1/3 within the next year thus eliminating much of the price difference between here and the north. This is because it will cost the UK retailers 1/3 more to obtain these goods from overseas manufacturers.

4. Prices in sterling appear to be cheaper because of the denominations used in the currency i.e. £9 sounds cheaper than €10, but isnt actually. Gives people the false impression that they are spending less. Its the opposite to the perception that people go here during the euro changeover - prices seemed more expensive, though weren't necessarily so.

5. There's an element of mania here. Once it becomes fashionable to shop up the north for bargains, a large proportion of the population will do it regardless of whether or not they are actually getting better value for money.

6. It's easy to pick a price on a particular item purchased in the north and say the north is cheaper because item A cost e.g. 30% less. There are also many things here that you could pick out as being cheaper than in the UK. I have some english friends, and when they visit here, they always draw attention to certain items which are cheaper than the UK. I suppose people only notice the bargains and forget about everything else.

Whereas I do agree that there are many cheaper items in the north due to the poorer economy and reduced operating costs, but the points above should be taken into account and I'd guess that when they are, you'd find that maybe the north isnt the bargain it seems.


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## Purple (1 Dec 2008)

csirl said:


> Playing devils advocate about shopping up north:
> 
> 1. People are not going there due to the VAT rate - not worth the trip for the majority of people for a small saving in VAT.
> 
> ...


Excellent post


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## MrMan (1 Dec 2008)

*Re: Govt ‘will have to stem flow of shoppers across border’*



Mpsox said:


> So it's unpatriotic to go shopping in the North
> 
> Does that mean the Irish Govt will be stopping all the Northern cars coming down south to fill up with petrol, giving back the stamp duty paid and taxes paid by all the Northeners who own holiday homes in Donegal and telling Aer Lingus to move it's new base from Belfast back to Shannon.?
> 
> ...



The govt aren't stopping anyone from doing anything with regards to where they shop. Its a simple enough request that we pump money into our own economy rather than send money out of the country and then bleat about the recession. If you choose not to buy in the republic its not unpatriotic but its not helpful either.


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## michaelm (1 Dec 2008)

csirl said:


> Playing devils advocate about shopping up north:
> 
> 1. People are not going there due to the VAT rate - not worth the trip for the majority of people for a small saving in VAT.
> 
> ...


Points 2 & 3 notwithstanding, most people are shopping North because they can save money doing so. Re Point 1, The VAT rate compounds already relatively low prices.  Points 4 & 5 can only apply to the numerically challenged and idiots.  Big tailbacks to Newry disprove point 6 (although maybe give credence to point 5).


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## ubiquitous (1 Dec 2008)

There is an element of truth in all 6 "devils advocate" points, particularly no. 3, although in general people will indeed save money by going north.

Its a bit much to say that "price psychology" and "mania" points 4 & 5  apply only "to the numerically challenged and idiots". Is everyone who bought a house at inflated prices in the past 5 years an idiot? Ditto, everyone who found the original adoption of the Euro a bit perplexing?

Point 6 is definitely true, albeit less so since the fall in Sterling this year. Petrol & diesel is the most obvious example, but there are many products in Asda in Enniskillen that are cheaper in the South. Own-brand smoked salmon is one. I have also recently found many such examples in Lidl in Enniskillen. (eg smoked salmon £3 in Enniskillen, €3.29 in Cavan)

I would add another one to that list

7. People like going North because its a novelty to shop in new places where they haven't shopped before. At worst, its a bit of a day out.


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## Mpsox (1 Dec 2008)

csirl said:


> Playing devils advocate about shopping up north:
> 
> 1. People are not going there due to the VAT rate - not worth the trip for the majority of people for a small saving in VAT.
> 
> ...


 
Agree with what you are saying regarding not everything being a bargain. However baby products in particuler stand out as being significantly cheaper. An example
My little baby daughter for some reason pukes every kind of powdered formula and will only drink Aptimil from a carton, she drinks approx 7 of these a day.
In the south, these cost in all the supermarkets between €1.18 and €1.42 a carton, therefore at the cheapest price, it costs €8.26 a day to feed her
when we go to the north, the cost varies from £0.56 to £0.65 a carton. Therefore at the dearest price we've seen, the cost is £4.55 a day which is approx €5.50 a day. 
Therefore if we stock up for 2 months we save a minimum of approx €330 alone by going up

Having said that, the last time we were up there we stopped in Banbridge and ended up buying a painting, so bang went the savings but the living room wall looks a lot better!!!!

However, what I really find interesting, is that for months, all 4 of the major supermarkets in the south were charging exactly the same price for this milk (ie €1.29 a carton) and only since more and more people started going North has there been any variety between them on price


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## Guest128 (1 Dec 2008)

Its quite strange when you are up there shopping...I was there on Saturday (not Newry, Portadown) and was tempted to buy loads of Toilet Duck, simply because of the price, 55p!


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## NorthDrum (1 Dec 2008)

FLANDERS` said:


> Its quite strange when you are up there shopping...I was there on Saturday (not Newry, Portadown) and was tempted to buy loads of Toilet Duck, simply because of the price, 55p!


 Im going up there tomorrow (actually going as far as belfast as I hear the further North you go the better the bargain).

Yes its a novelty (certainly for me, I havent been in Belfast since I was 12), but I think one of the things that people are missing here is the fact that , irrespective of costs involved in getting up and getting goods back, people at least feel that they are getting their value for money for their goods. At the end of the day, irrespective of whether or not that is the case, its the most important factor to consider when discussing those trekking north.

Not only is there a perception down south that our government has lost the plot (regarding V.A.T. etc) but theres also an ongoing press campaign Highlighting the wasted money in public finances and the lavish "company expenses" put on the taxpayers Bill because "they were entitled to do it"!. This only further encourages people to give the two fingers to those in power who are now trying to force us to foot their bills (again public perception not necessarily my sentiments!).

I am going up there to buy in bulk because I need to budget and feel that nobody else is going to look after me. I dont think its any differant to a majority of people going up North.

I have 0% confidence in this government and feel like I am "batting down the hatches" for when they do finally ruin the country, by saving every penny I can while the goings . . Going . . . Gone


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## cole (1 Dec 2008)

Point 1 I'm not so sure. It all adds up.
Points 2 and 3 I agree.



csirl said:


> 4. Prices in sterling appear to be cheaper because of the denominations used in the currency i.e. £9 sounds cheaper than €10, but isnt actually. Gives people the false impression that they are spending less. Its the opposite to the perception that people go here during the euro changeover - prices seemed more expensive, though weren't necessarily so.


 
When shops in Newry are giving € for £ it's hard to argue this point.

Point 5 I agree 100%, it's fashionable. And people being fickle it'll be interesting to see how long it will continue. That said it's interesting to see the likes of Superquinn responding. I wonder if they'd be reducing prices if consumers weren't going North?

Point 6 I think that the majority of items are cheaper in the North. Granted a few will be cheaper in the South. But if someone is doing a "big shop" then it's probably worth their while. 

Given the 6 hour queues to get into Newry on Saturday I wonder why shoppers don't go to Enniskillen or Belfast?


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## ubiquitous (1 Dec 2008)

cole said:


> Given the 6 hour queues to get into Newry on Saturday I wonder why shoppers don't go to Enniskillen or Belfast?


The queues in Enniskillen are pretty bad as well, although nothing like Newry. The Asda store has had to impose its own queueing system as well, letting in groups of 50, every time 50 people leave.


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## Guest128 (2 Dec 2008)

NorthDrum said:


> Im going up there tomorrow (actually going as far as belfast as I hear the further North you go the better the bargain).
> 
> Yes its a novelty (certainly for me, I havent been in Belfast since I was 12), but I think one of the things that people are missing here is the fact that , irrespective of costs involved in getting up and getting goods back, people at least feel that they are getting their value for money for their goods. At the end of the day, irrespective of whether or not that is the case, its the most important factor to consider when discussing those trekking north.
> 
> ...



Just a heads up from experience: I would recommend avoiding the M1 completely, if travelling from Dublin or surrounding areas. I came back to Dublin via the N2 (Armagh, CastleBlaney, Carrickmacross, Slane, Dublin) to avoid the craziness I got stuck in going up. If you are not going into Newry itself, use the N2 as you cannot get around Newry from the M1 side without getting caught in the "Into-Newry" jam (unless you know some backroad)


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## Duke of Marmalade (2 Dec 2008)

FLANDERS` said:


> Just a heads up from experience: I would recommend avoiding the M1 completely, if travelling from Dublin or surrounding areas. I came back to Dublin via the N2 (Armagh, CastleBlaney, Carrickmacross, Slane, Dublin) to avoid the craziness I got stuck in going up. If you are not going into Newry itself, use the N2 as you cannot get around Newry from the M1 side without getting caught in the "Into-Newry" jam (unless you know some backroad)


Seriously!  I have to catch a flight from Belfast City Airport at 5.20 Thursday, leaving Dublin city centre at 1.0c.  Normally a breeze thru' the tunnel and up the M1.  I was planning the M1 to about the turn off to Ardee and then inland through backroads to Bessbrook, MarketHill etc.  Is the N2 better?  Where do the into-Newry jams start?  Anybody know a better route?


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## Guest128 (2 Dec 2008)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> Seriously!  I have to catch a flight from Belfast City Airport at 5.20 Thursday, leaving Dublin city centre at 1.0c.  Normally a breeze thru' the tunnel and up the M1.  I was planning the M1 to about the turn off to Ardee and then inland through backroads to Bessbrook, MarketHill etc.  Is the N2 better?  Where do the into-Newry jams start?  Anybody know a better route?



I kid you not, although on a Thursday you should be fine. I joined the tailback to Newry last Sat at 9am about 3 or 4 miles outside Newry and only got to the roundabout outside the town at 10.30am. Now that was not bad as there was at least double the amount of cars behind me. 

I would think you will have no bother getting to the Ardee turnoff, its really only the weekend that the madness begins...


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## ubiquitous (2 Dec 2008)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> Seriously!  I have to catch a flight from Belfast City Airport at 5.20 Thursday, leaving Dublin city centre at 1.0c.  Normally a breeze thru' the tunnel and up the M1.  I was planning the M1 to about the turn off to Ardee and then inland through backroads to Bessbrook, MarketHill etc.  Is the N2 better?  Where do the into-Newry jams start?  Anybody know a better route?



One alternative would be the N2 as far as Ballygawley and the main road to Belfast (mostly motorway) from there.


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## Duke of Marmalade (2 Dec 2008)

Thanks guys (gals?),  I think I'll go Tunnel and M1 to Ardee turn off then Ardee to Ballygawley by N2 and then Belfast.  Better than the side roads.

Thursday is late shopping, too risky to head for Newry.


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## ubiquitous (2 Dec 2008)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> Thanks guys (gals?),  I think I'll go Tunnel and M1 to Ardee turn off then Ardee to Ballygawley by N2 and then Belfast.  Better than the side roads.



Depending on where you're starting from, the N2 as far as Ardee is a good road and easy enough to manage (esp Ashbourne bypass). The only thing is you have to go through Slane and Ardee but neither are much of a headache afaik.


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## Celtwytch (2 Dec 2008)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> Seriously! I have to catch a flight from Belfast City Airport at 5.20 Thursday, leaving Dublin city centre at 1.0c. Normally a breeze thru' the tunnel and up the M1. I was planning the M1 to about the turn off to Ardee and then inland through backroads to Bessbrook, MarketHill etc. Is the N2 better? Where do the into-Newry jams start? Anybody know a better route?


 
The main traffic jam starts shortly after you cross the border into Northern Ireland.  You would probably be safe enough staying on the M1 until Dundalk, if you know your way around the back roads from there.


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## Duke of Marmalade (2 Dec 2008)

Sat Nav says Dublin - Belfast 2 hrs - we know that is a laugh
Sat Nav says via Ardee/Ballygawley is 3 hrs, an extra hour, not great
Sat Nav says via Newtownhamilton/Markethill 2 hrs 30 mins, that looks best, you get off M1 at Dundalk


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## Caveat (2 Dec 2008)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> Sat Nav says via Newtownhamilton/Markethill 2 hrs 30 mins, that looks best, you get off M1 at Dundalk


 
That sounds right to me.  Roads are not great but OK.


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## ubiquitous (3 Dec 2008)

The roads around Newtownhamilton are best avoided, in my experience. Its easy to see why people say that the terrain there made South Armagh ungovernable for the British.


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## DerKaiser (11 Dec 2008)

http://www.independent.ie/national-...-trolley-fights-and-parking-rage-1570556.html

Greed is alive and well.  

I really feel sorry for the locals and those making routine journeys through Newry.

When are people going to get it into their heads that spending four hours frustrated in a car is not worth the hassle..


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## NorthDrum (11 Dec 2008)

FLANDERS` said:


> I kid you not, although on a Thursday you should be fine. I joined the tailback to Newry last Sat at 9am about 3 or 4 miles outside Newry and only got to the roundabout outside the town at 10.30am. Now that was not bad as there was at least double the amount of cars behind me.
> 
> I would think you will have no bother getting to the Ardee turnoff, its really only the weekend that the madness begins...


 
Thanks for advice Flanders. Only just saw it there!

Would you believe I went up on the M1 but it was clear all the way up! (went tues at 10.30am!)


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## TarfHead (11 Dec 2008)

michaelm said:


> Points 2 & 3 notwithstanding, most people are shopping North because they can save money doing so.


 
I assume this mania will subside after Christmas. Many of the people posting on the 'Shopping in Northern Ireland' thread on www.boards.ie (>1400 posts and climbing) are reporting on the quantities bought of, and savings made for, booze. I doubt they'll repeat those volumes of purchases after Christmas. I further doubt that the same volume of people will continue to make the journeys for a weekly household shop.

My 2 cents worth is that people's calculated savings include pricing their leisure time at zero. While I would be tempted to give up half, or more, of a weekend day to get the savings, I value my leisure time too much to spend 4 hours behind the driving wheel and potentially the same again in shops.

Sometime between now and Christmas Day I will be spending between €400 and €500 on a new 26" TV. The same TV would need to be £250, or less, in Northern Ireland for me to give up a Saturday or Sunday.


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## Caveat (11 Dec 2008)

TarfHead said:


> My 2 cents worth is that people's calculated savings include pricing their leisure time at zero. While I would be tempted to give up half, or more, of a weekend day to get the savings, I value my leisure time too much to spend 4 hours behind the driving wheel and potentially the same again in shops.


 
Yes, but not everyone is from Dublin don't forget.

There is a sizeable population in Louth, Monaghan, Cavan & Meath for example for whom a trip to Newry involves between a 15 and 45 minute drive.


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## lightswitch (11 Dec 2008)

> Given the 6 hour queues to get into Newry on Saturday I wonder why shoppers don't go to Enniskillen or Belfast?


 
I left South Dublin via the m50 and the M1 for Newry at 7.15 last Saturday morning and was in Sainsburys car park at 9.15.  Possibly helped by taking the wrong turn at the round about and entering Newry from the Daisy Hill Hospital side.

The checkout queues were too long at that point for me to do a grocery shop in Sainsburys but did pick up the Christmas drinks.  £11.99 for 24 bottles of Budwiser, £4.92 for 24 cans of coke.  Other brands seemed to be similarly priced.

Bought clothes in Monsoon, Oasis, River Island and Debenhams and saved on average 40% on the cost here due to the sterling exchange rate.

Went back in to Sainsburys around 3pm and there are no queues at all.

Personally I prefer Belfast for the variety of shops.  But Newry is good value for everyday items.


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## DerKaiser (11 Dec 2008)

Caveat said:


> Yes, but not everyone is from Dublin don't forget.
> 
> There is a sizeable population in Louth, Monaghan, Cavan & Meath for example for whom a trip to Newry involves between a 15 and 45 minute drive.


 
It's only natural for people living that close to the border to go across it to shop.  

At first I felt the issue in all of this was loss of tax revenue to the state, but this would apply to everyone regardless whether they were from kerry or louth. 

Now I'm coming round to thinking the real issue is the sheer waste of human effort of making a six hour round trip rather than a one hour local shop.

Just to balance the arguement, I think there will be a positive benefit from all of this if it forces shops down here to react, so thanks to all those selfless (did i say greedy earlier??!!) people who spend their weekends in traffic on the N1!


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## TarfHead (12 Dec 2008)

Good [broken link removed] in today's Irish Times

Extract ..
"_An obvious problem with the crusade against cross-Border shopping is where to draw the line. If it is wrong to go to Armagh to shop, and in the process perhaps to buy goods manufactured in the Republic from a sales assistant who lives in Emyvale, what's the rule about buying British goods in a British-owned store in the Republic with the help of a sales assistant from Krakow?_"


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## ubiquitous (12 Dec 2008)

TarfHead said:


> Good [broken link removed] in today's Irish Times



Indeed, its a classic, summed up in the sub-heading



> Cross-Border shopping will reduce retail prices in the Republic, leading to lower costs generally, writes Jim O'Leary



Jim O'Leary is the Economics professor at NUI Maynooth, who honourably resigned from the Benchmarking Body rather than stand over the pretence of its "scientific" analysis.


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## Lak (17 Dec 2008)

My wife called into gamestop castlebar to purchase a wi fit, the price was twenty euros more than elsewhere but gamestop was the the only shop with this item in stock. It was advertised in shop at €99. but on paying at the counter the assistant said the price was now €120, the reason being they were the only ones with this item in stock and head office had informed them to now up the price, this despite it clearly being advertised at €99.
My wife refused to pay this amount and quite rightly pointed out it is clearly against the law to offer an item at one price then demand more when purchaseing, she made a fuss and following a call to head office was sold the item at its original and already inflated price, along with an accessory that was also over priced from the advertised price.
Gross Profiteering is clearly alive and kicking despite the economic downturn, will theese people never learn?
I for one will not be shopping in Gamestop again after spending nie on a thousand euro the past year in this shop from last christmas through to this....My custom will be going North, after being systematically financially raped for years in the Republic I have not an iota of sympathy for the retailers or the lethargic imbecilles in Government that allowed this rip off culture to flourish unabated....The idiom you reap what you sow springs readily to mind


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## Lak (17 Dec 2008)

Hey just maybe the Government may decide to tackle this issue...........when they return from their thirty nine days Christmas holidays....pffft!
Perhaps had I tendered for the contract of fixing the leaky pipe and installing the new toilet and fixing the spoiled plaster in Government buildings that cost the taxpayer a jaw dropping €47,000 I would feel obliged to shop in the Republic on the back of such Government generosity, after all had I done that one week job I could have had the rest of the year off and had plenty of time on my hands to search out the bargains.


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## z103 (17 Dec 2008)

I was in Debenhams today. Prices are in both sterling and euro. The item I wanted to purchase was marked £20/€31. This is a huge difference considering the current exchange rate. I asked the assistant if I could pay the sterling price, and was met by a well rehearsed 'blah, blah cost more in Ireland, etc, blah blah'. I left the item behind.

I'm sick of it at this stage. I'm buying as much as possible on the internet.


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## Lak (17 Dec 2008)

Its extremely difficult to tow the patriotic line when it comes from bone idle bloated cretins that show nothing but self intrest with their snouts deep in the the trough of greed.
I can not hide my rage at being preached to by persons who deem it their rights to draw massive salaries while availing of a grotesque vacational period of 39 days Christmas leave in a time of crisis. Had I merely one speck of respect for anyone of them I may be inclined to think twice.


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## micmclo (18 Dec 2008)

Sure aren't we all European now anyway 

It's the people shopping in places like New York and then not declaring anything on their return that need to be targeted, if you want to target anyone.
I'm not saying they need to be targeted but despite the limited numbers, I don't remember any outcry. Why now?


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## Welfarite (18 Dec 2008)

I regularly shop in Northern Ireland. I certainly don't feel unpatriotic as I consider it part of Ireland. I have always shopped there irrespective of exchange rates. It is more convenient for me to go to Belfast rather than Dublin. I wonder how many would shop there if the troubles were still raging? I also rememebr Jonesboro days when a lot of dodgy dealers made money out of gullible Southern shoppers buying 'bargains'.


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## ubiquitous (18 Dec 2008)

Welfarite said:


> I also rememebr Jonesboro days when a lot of dodgy dealers made money out of gullible Southern shoppers buying 'bargains'.



Does the Jonesboro market still exist? The similar market at Clogher in Fermanagh is thriving. God knows why...


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## DerKaiser (18 Dec 2008)

The tone on this thread is a good barometer of the mood in the country at the moment, the blame game.  It's starting to get very nasty with several sections of society being labelled as dossers or idiots.  

Consider this example:
An Item in next is €30 in Dublin and £20 in Belfast.
The costs are 
Wholesale costs €12/€8
labour €12/£8
Profit €6/£4
At €1 = £0.66 all of this appears fair
At €1 = £0.94 the belfast price is 30% lower

What can the Dublin shop do?
In order to match the Belfast price it must cut its wages and profits by 30%

If we were in some kind of balance relative to the UK a year or so ago, we are now in a position where we all need to cut our wages by 30%!

And what has caused this?

International money markets, in particular the Euro Central Bank and the UK Central bank.

So we can go around blaming all the idiots we like now, but the situation has arisen from factors not alone outside of the retialers control but even the governments control.  The only way balance can be restored if this situation persists is for all of us to collectively take 30% wage cuts


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## ubiquitous (18 Dec 2008)

Excellent post. Still its worth noting that the government were warned about this sort of thing happening once we joined the Euro and the UK opted out.


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## sidzer (18 Dec 2008)

legs-akimbo said:


> My wife called into gamestop castlebar to purchase a wi fit, the price was twenty euros more than elsewhere but gamestop was the the only shop with this item in stock. It was advertised in shop at €99. but on paying at the counter the assistant said the price was now €120, the reason being they were the only ones with this item in stock and head office had informed them to now up the price, this despite it clearly being advertised at €99.
> My wife refused to pay this amount and quite rightly pointed out it is clearly against the law to offer an item at one price then demand more when purchaseing, she made a fuss and following a call to head office was sold the item at its original and already inflated price, along with an accessory that was also over priced from the advertised price.
> Gross Profiteering is clearly alive and kicking despite the economic downturn, will theese people never learn?
> I for one will not be shopping in Gamestop again after spending nie on a thousand euro the past year in this shop from last christmas through to this....My custom will be going North, after being systematically financially raped for years in the Republic I have not an iota of sympathy for the retailers or the lethargic imbecilles in Government that allowed this rip off culture to flourish unabated....The idiom you reap what you sow springs readily to mind


 
Was in Newry last night and Pound World were giving 80p to the Euro even though the rate yesterday was 93p... So Rip-off-ism isn't only in the Republic.........


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## ubiquitous (18 Dec 2008)

legs-akimbo said:


> My custom will be going North, after being systematically financially raped for years in the Republic



Your choice of language is insensitive, to say the least, to victims of rape and sexual assault. Did you show your wife your lovely post? I think not.


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## Lak (18 Dec 2008)

Get a grip for crying out loud !!!!


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## TarfHead (18 Dec 2008)

DerKaiser said:


> What can the Dublin shop do?
> In order to match the Belfast price it must cut its wages and profits by 30%


 
It was November 2007 when I first noticed that the custom, of converting euro to sterling, of adding 50% to the sterling price (e.g. £20 = €20 + 10), was no longer valid.

I was in Debenhams Blackrock this week and, while queueing for the checkout, I picked up a jar of Jelly Belly brand jelly beans. The dual pricing showed £20/€31. On closer examination, some of the beans were starting to crystallise.

I asked the sales assistant if I could buy them at the sterling price, i.e charge me £20 sterling for them and I'd take the Mastercard conversion rate. She replied that she could not.

Debenhams have, I assume, already paid the supplier for this product. If they can make a profit on it at £20, then they, and other retailers, need to get clever if they want to shift unsold stock. In the present climate, retailers need cash and need to move old stock so they can buy in new stock. As it stands, that specific product will not be of 'saleable quality' if left on the shelf for much longer and will have to be binned.


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## TarfHead (18 Dec 2008)

legs-akimbo said:


> Get a grip for crying out loud !!!!


 
I also object to your mis-use of that term.


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## ubiquitous (18 Dec 2008)

legs-akimbo said:


> Get a grip for crying out loud !!!!



So I take it that you didn't show your wife what you wrote here


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## Ham Slicer (18 Dec 2008)

TarfHead said:


> I also object to your mis-use of that term.



I don't object.  It's a phrase that has made it's way in to everyday slang.  It doesn't offend me.  People need to lighten up....and why should his wife be upset with his language.


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## DerKaiser (18 Dec 2008)

TarfHead said:


> It was November 2007 when I first noticed that the custom, of converting euro to sterling, of adding 50% to the sterling price (e.g. £20 = €20 + 10), was no longer valid.
> 
> I was in Debenhams Blackrock this week and, while queueing for the checkout, I picked up a jar of Jelly Belly brand jelly beans. The dual pricing showed £20/€31. On closer examination, some of the beans were starting to crystallise.
> 
> ...


 
They probably won't make a profit down here by selling it at £20 i.e. €21.30

Maybe a few months ago when £20 equaled €25 the could have broke even or better selling at the UK price

Maybe demand won't exist if they don't drop the price to €21.30 but this will not be possible unless all of their costs drop by the same rate as sterling has dropped against the euro.

If they can't cut wages, utility bills, rental, etc and there's no demand at a price which enables them to make a profit then they'll shut up shop. You'll get your jelly beans cheap now but there will be no Debenhams within a few months.

The choice as I see it is either take the pay cuts to enable retailers down here to compete or lose the shops and the jobs

It's not just retailers cutting ther profit levels. Their direct employees will have to take pay cuts for starters. Their rents will have to drop. Their insurance will have to drop. Their produce costs will have to drop. 

No one will escape this reality, we're talking about the construction industry, farmers, employees in the financial sector and many more.

It's not just greedy shopkeepers and stupid governments. It's all of us


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## ubiquitous (18 Dec 2008)

DerKaiser said:


> The choice as I see it is either take the pay cuts to enable retailers down here to compete or lose the shops and the jobs



The latter eventuality seems to be on the cards. 

Ironically enough, its happening across the border as well. Woolworths are being tipped as the first of many.


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## Caveat (18 Dec 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> Does the Jonesboro market still exist?


 
Oh yes.

But on a smaller scale. Seemingly much less 'dodgy' items now - but some of the clientèle and traders look as dodgy as ever though.


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## Sunny (18 Dec 2008)

One way for this argument about the difference in costs of doing business for retailers in the two jurisdictions to be solved is for the retailers who operate in both areas to publish their accounts so we can see exactly what sort of profit margin the retailers enjoy down South. Unfortunately I don't know any retailer that publishes a breakdown of their business in that way so we are all pretty much in the dark.


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## ubiquitous (18 Dec 2008)

Sunny said:


> One way for this argument about the difference in costs of doing business for retailers in the two jurisdictions to be solved is for the retailers who operate in both areas to publish their accounts so we can see exactly what sort of profit margin the retailers enjoy down South. Unfortunately I don't know any retailer that publishes a breakdown of their business in that way so we are all pretty much in the dark.



You obviously are unaware of the joys of transfer pricing, for example how multinational corporations can report staggering levels of profit in countries with low corporation tax, while struggling to make even a few bob in places where corporation tax is high.


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## Sunny (18 Dec 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> You obviously are unaware of the joys of transfer pricing, for example how some multinational manufacturers can report staggering levels of profit in countries with low corporation tax, while struggling to make a few bob in places where corporation tax is high.


 
Has nothing to do with tax levels if you simply look at gross profit margins


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## ubiquitous (18 Dec 2008)

Sunny said:


> Has nothing to do with tax levels if you simply look at gross profit margins



But if for example, Debenhams Ireland are buying their stock from Debenhams UK, or Debenhams Asia, for that matter, who sets the prices?

In any case, focussing solely on gross profit margins makes no sense, if overhead costs vary between economies, as they invariably do.


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## TarfHead (18 Dec 2008)

DerKaiser said:


> They probably won't make a profit down here by selling it at £20 i.e. €21.30
> 
> Maybe a few months ago when £20 equaled €25 the could have broke even or better selling at the UK price.


 
I don't agree.

As Debenhams is a UK multiple, that item on a shelf in Co. Dublin cost them, I assume, an amount less than £20. If they receive £20 for the item, they make a profit.

If they can't sell it, and have to dispose of it, they have to write it off.

If they, and other shops 'headquartered' in the UK, have paid for the stock in sterling, as long as they get something (in sterling) more than they paid for it, they're ahead.


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## p45 (18 Dec 2008)

Didn't all this come to a head back in the late 80s/early 90s when we reached parity bewteen punt and pound, it took a while but shops eventually worked it out?  I remember the joy of going into a book store and paying what was printed on the cover for a book.


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## ubiquitous (18 Dec 2008)

TarfHead said:


> As Debenhams is a UK multiple, that item on a shelf in Co. Dublin cost them, I assume, an amount less than £20. If they receive £20 for the item, they make a profit.



Not exactly true. If they receive £20 for the item, they make a gross margin, or contribution. If their total contribution (net of VAT) is sufficient to cover overheads, they make a profit. Otherwise they make a loss.


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## Sunny (18 Dec 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> But if for example, Debenhams Ireland are buying their stock from Debenhams UK, or Debenhams Asia, for that matter, who sets the prices?
> 
> In any case, focussing solely on gross profit margins makes no sense, if overhead costs vary between economies, as they invariably do.


 
Ok I see what you mean and I don't work in retail so don't know how they operate but I do work for a foreign owned finanical institution and we have very set guidelines on transfer pricing and the concept of 'arms length'. Is it not the same in retail? I presume same laws apply


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## TarfHead (18 Dec 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> Not exactly true. If they receive £20 for the item, they make a gross margin, or contribution. If their total contribution (net of VAT) is sufficient to cover overheads, they make a profit. Otherwise they make a loss.


 
Fair enough - I was taking a simplistic view that the difference between the 2 amounts was solely acountable to an exchange rate conversion.


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## ubiquitous (18 Dec 2008)

Sunny said:


> Ok I see what you mean and I don't work in retail so don't know how they operate but I do work for a foreign owned finanical institution and we have very set guidelines on transfer pricing and the concept of 'arms length'. Is it not the same in retail? I presume same laws apply


I don't have time at the moment to do a major google search on transfer pricing practices but I think its commonly known that the Irish branches of some US-based multinationals can arrange their affairs in such a way as they make massive profits here, where they are taxed at 12.5%, while making smaller margins elsewhere where corporate taxes are higher.


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## DerKaiser (18 Dec 2008)

p45 said:


> Didn't all this come to a head back in the late 80s/early 90s when we reached parity bewteen punt and pound, it took a while but shops eventually worked it out? I remember the joy of going into a book store and paying what was printed on the cover for a book.


 
might have led to the devaluation of the irish punt to restore competitiveness.

When we joined the Euro there were many positives (stable currency, low interest environment) but there were two issues that everyone who studied economics learned:

1.  If the UK did not go in we could suffer competitively if sterling weakened or suffer import driven inflation if sterling strengthened
2.  We could no longer use interest rate policy to cool an overheated economy or stimulate a stagnant one

Most of the issues we face now are as a direct result of these issues


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## Sunny (18 Dec 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> I don't have time at the moment to do a major google search on transfer pricing practices but I think its commonly known that the Irish branches of some US-based multinationals can arrange their affairs in such a way as they make massive profits here, where they are taxed at 12.5%, while making smaller margins elsewhere where corporate taxes are higher.


 
I know that but I always thought it was mainly in the areas of patents, copyright sales etc. I just didn't think the retail sector would be able to get away with it to the same extent as it must be obvious to the tax authorities that if they are reporting a 30% profit margin in their low tax, higher cost Irish operations compared to a 10% profit margin in the the higher tax, lower cost UK, there must be something going on. I guess there are always ways around these things though.


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## ubiquitous (18 Dec 2008)

Sunny said:


> I know that but I always thought it was mainly in the areas of patents, copyright sales etc. I just didn't think the retail sector would be able to get away with it to the same extent as it must be obvious to the tax authorities that if they are reporting a 30% profit margin in their low tax, higher cost Irish operations compared to a 10% profit margin in the the higher tax, lower cost UK, there must be something going on. I guess there are always ways around these things though.



I didn't mean to imply that UK retailers here are using transfer pricing to minimise their tax bills. In fact I don't really see this as an issue at all.

My point was more in relation to your suggestion that retailers' Irish and UK accounts be examined and compared in order to determine what exact profit margins they are making in either jurisdiction.  I think that this would be a pointless exercise, because internal management accounting practices and policies will invariably distort such comparisons to the point of meaninglessness. 

If you take a hypothetical company with a headquarters in London and a call centre in Plymouth, how do you determine how much the HQ & call centre costs are charged to their RoI entity, as opposed to their Scotland or Wales entities? If the Irish unit beats its sales target by 10%, the Scottish unit beats its target by 25% and the Welsh unit misses its target by 8%,or if the RoI unit is taking up 50% of management time in London or call-centre resources in Plymouth, but accounting for only 25% of total sales, how do you reflect these phenomena in the company's cost absorption policies?  Even marginal changes in such policies can have profound effects on reported profitability.


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## Sunny (18 Dec 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> I didn't mean to imply that UK retailers here are using transfer pricing to minimise their tax bills. In fact I don't really see this as an issue at all.
> 
> My point was more in relation to your suggestion that retailers' Irish and UK accounts be examined and compared in order to determine what exact profit margins they are making in either jurisdiction. I think that this would be a pointless exercise, because internal management accounting practices and policies will invariably distort such comparisons to the point of meaninglessness.
> 
> If you take a hypothetical company with a headquarters in London and a call centre in Plymouth, how do you determine how much the HQ & call centre costs are charged to their RoI entity, as opposed to their Scotland or Wales entities? If the Irish unit beats its sales target by 10%, the Scottish unit beats its target by 25% and the Welsh unit misses its target by 8%,or if the RoI unit is taking up 50% of management time in London or call-centre resources in Plymouth, but accounting for only 25% of total sales, how do you reflect these phenomena in the company's cost absorption policies? Even marginal changes in such policies can have profound effects on reported profitability.


 
I am not an accountant so not going to try and argue! My only point is that if you take someone like Tesco, they will break down their margins between the UK and their International operations so there must be some sort of useful comparison. What they won't do is break down figures Country by Country. All they claim is that it is sensitive commercial information not they can't do it or the information is useless.


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## ubiquitous (19 Dec 2008)

Sunny said:


> My only point is that if you take someone like Tesco, they will break down their margins between the UK and their International operations so there must be some sort of useful comparison.



Indeed, but how does one vouch for the integrity of the information presented? The scope for variation and distortion based on the variety of possible assumptions used in calculating the figures means that it is impossible to come to make definitive conclusions based on such information. 

That is why using published accounts is pointless in determining profit margins.


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## Shawady (22 Jan 2009)

Is the title of this thread more signifitcant now, given Superquinn's decision to close it's shop in Dundalk?


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## Caveat (22 Jan 2009)

Shawady said:


> Is the title of this thread more signifitcant now, given Superquinn's decision to close it's shop in Dundalk?


 
I really don't think the Superquinn closure has that much to do with Dundalkers heading north.

I think what is more of a factor is probably:

Competition from Aldi/Lidl - one of each in Dundalk now and another Aldi opening soon.
Lowering of standards generally in Superquinn in recent years.
Generally higher prices in recessionary times - makes trading difficult even without Aldi/Lidl competition.


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## elefantfresh (22 Jan 2009)

But what will the people of Dundalk do now for their Superquinn sausages? Oh, i do love them so...


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## joe sod (16 Dec 2022)

I know this is an old thread but an article in the independent says that cross border trade is back with a bang due to the cost of living crisis . Supermarkets are reporting shoppers coming from as far away as Cork. Of course the key driver of this is alcohol prices.  It appears that all the predictions about the effects of minimum unit pricing are now being borne out that it would drive cross border trade


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## Purple (16 Dec 2022)

joe sod said:


> I know this is an old thread but an article in the independent says that cross border trade is back with a bang due to the cost of living crisis . Supermarkets are reporting shoppers coming from as far away as Cork. Of course the key driver of this is alcohol prices.  It appears that all the predictions about the effects of minimum unit pricing are now being borne out that it would drive cross border trade


People with enough money to use a couple of tanks of petrol or diesel are spending a full day to acquire alcohol. Therefore it's nothing to do with any cost of living crisis since alcohol is a luxury good.


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## joe sod (16 Dec 2022)

Nor really because you need to have alcohol around for Christmas due to visitors calling etc, it might not actually be for personal consumption.  However alcohol prices would be the driver in convincing people to go north because the differential is so large now. When you are there you will shop for other stuff while you are there and possibly stay over for the night. 

That's why MUP was a brain dead policy and a huge own goal. Even more crazy considering that inflation was also about to take off but was being dismissed then .The government didn't have the stomach to stand up to the NGOs and just say No


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## Purple (16 Dec 2022)

joe sod said:


> Nor really because you need to have alcohol around for Christmas due to visitors calling etc, it might not actually be for personal consumption.


It's still not a necessity.


joe sod said:


> However alcohol prices would be the driver in convincing people to go north because the differential is so large now.


The UK committing economic self harm through Brexit and electing nutters to lead their country with the resulting devaluation of their currency is a key factor in the price differential. We are in the unfortunate position of having a government which is generally very competent on economic matters.


joe sod said:


> That's why MUP was a brain dead policy and a huge own goal. Even more crazy considering that inflation was also about to take off but was being dismissed then .The government didn't have the stomach to stand up to the NGOs and just say No


Again, it's a luxury item and it's harmful. Taxing it more to reduce consumption is a good idea as there's a knock on saving in healthcare costs. Charging drunk people the full cost of their A&E visit would also be a good thing but that's a different issue.


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## joe sod (16 Dec 2022)

Purple said:


> The UK committing economic self harm through Brexit and electing nutters to lead their country with the resulting devaluation of their currency is a key factor in the price differential. We are in the unfortunate position of having a government which is generally very competent on economic matters.


It's not a brexit issue as we also have much higher alcohol prices than the rest of europe. If anything a hard brexit would have made it harder to bring alcohol down from the North like the 1980s where people were hiding it from customs officials at the border. Thankfully that didn't happen so people can shop in the North to their heart's content. Therefore economically it was a stupid policy and should have been thrown out on that basis alone.
The government could have increased the excise taxes on alcohol a bit thereby taking in more revenue but not enough to entice people across the border. Instead they went with the sledge hammer of MUP
As regards currency that's not a factor as sterling was cheaper last year before MUP  also some alcohol sold here is produced in the UK but retailers are not allowed to pass on any potential savings to consumers so the distributors and the retailers take the extra margin. I repeat it was a brain dead policy


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## odyssey06 (16 Dec 2022)

Purple said:


> It's still not a necessity.
> 
> The UK committing economic self harm through Brexit and electing nutters to lead their country with the resulting devaluation of their currency is a key factor in the price differential. We are in the unfortunate position of having a government which is generally very competent on economic matters.
> 
> Again, it's a luxury item and it's harmful. Taxing it more to reduce consumption is a good idea as there's a knock on saving in healthcare costs. Charging drunk people the full cost of their A&E visit would also be a good thing but that's a different issue.


MUP isn't a tax though - most of the increased price goes to retailers. Whatever about the merits of bringing in MUP in conjunction with the North (and I'm extremely doubtful on its benefits) bringing it in without them made no sense and was flagged at the time as a bad idea that would lead to this.


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