# Can I go bankrupt in UK if I don't have a job in UK?



## Brokeashell (15 May 2013)

Any help at all would be appreciated as I am at my wits end with this.

Basically I am totally insolvent. My income has fallen from over €150,000 to just €20,000 due to the failure of my business. I am in overall negative equity of €1.25m on various properties (the worst one is a failed pub which is almost unsaleable & has €900k owing on it). My wife is NOT on any of these loans however she is a joint borrow on our home mortgage of €350,000 however the value of this property is now less than €300,000 & her income is approx €40k.

As you will appreciate from above I will never be able to deal with €1.25m negative equity on an income of €20k so I don't see what else I can do bar go bankrupt?

If we establish that this is the road I have to go I then have the following questions:

* If I move to the UK-what do I do then? If I cant get a job am I entitled to welfare?
* If I am unemployed how can I show the UK as my centre of main interest?
* I have been advised to sell all my properties (fire sale) prior to going to The UK to bring the losses to a head- will the bank consent to this? Can I sell them without their consent or knowledge?
* I can borrow approx €20k from parents to get myself established in the UK but how will a bankruptcy court view that in 3-6 months time- that I used this money to live on rather giving it to the banks here?
* How will our family home be treated when I try to go bankrupt?

I am really sorry for all the questions but I am so confused right now.


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## Luternau (15 May 2013)

Welcome to AAM,

Sorry it has to be for the reasons you posted. 

You have not stated what the banks are saying to you? Are there judgements? Repossessions? Are you under pressure to do something now?

Re your q's
Are you entitled to Welfare here? If so, you may be entitled to welfare in the UK.
Could you get a job in the UK?-You are allowed to work!
You dont have to sell property to go bankrupt. Who advised you of that ? 
Would the bank allow you to sell them? Probably not, but depends lots of facors.
The UK courts wont care if you spent 20k on living expenses-you need money to live on.

Re your family home- If you moved to the uk would yor wife go with you? If so, I would propose to the bank that you sell it and they write off the negative equity. In bankruptcy they will get less.

You really should read through the threads here-there are lots of people in the same position and you will learn loads from reading them.


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## Brokeashell (16 May 2013)

Thanks Luternau

I am not entitled to social welfare here. I am still self employed but my business is f**ked & my wifes earns.
There are a number of banks involved- the one with the most debt has offered me voluntary surrender of the pub & RIPs but want me to sign in consent of judgement for the full short fall when disposed of. I was going to do this but I it means that I have no control over what price they sell the properties at,  and secondly it is quite likely that I will inherit approx €150,000 in about 3-4 years time- this is my start again money & if I have judgements still hanging over me then I would have to clear them rather than make an attempt at providing for my family again.

I am actually trying to get a job in the UK (not that easy). The other problem I have is that I have been involved in the financial services area for 15 years and bankruptcy will preclude me from operating is that area in either UK or Ireland so I am looking at having to start all over again. My wife will not be coming to the UK with me as she needs to keep her job here to try to maintain payments on the family home.

I absolutely hate having to go to the UK and leave my wife & kids even if it is for only 18 months. But what can I do? My dilema at the moment is that if I go tomorrow I stop earning even the small amount that I do today, I then have no income in the UK until I am lucky enough to get a job, and it is harder to get employment if I am over there & technically unemployed. At the moment I am applying for 10 jobs per day but as I am having to change occupation totally it is hard to even get an interview- think I will stick with it until something comes up though as I don't want to be over there alone, unemployed & still in the sh*te.

I was advised by a solicitor that I should fire sale all the properties to bring the losses to a head- this was just before he wanted me to instruct him to take up the deeds of each property from the banks so that he could act for the sales. I don't trust anyone anymore & half get the impression that these guys are just making work for themselves. BUT then maybe he is right in that it forces the situation to a head but I am sure that the banks will then have judgements registered against me before I can go bankrupt anywhere- at home or the UK.

Personally I would let the banks get judgements against me at home & do my best to pay for the family home BUT as my credit rating is now so bad I am unlikely to be able to "get going" again at anything so I need to protect any future inheritance. I know that sounds bad as I do owe the banks over €1m but I have paid millions in loans & taxes in the last 15 years while working 7 days per week & this inheritance will be my last chance so I can't just allow a bank to take it.

Any advice appreciated.


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## Bronte (16 May 2013)

Based on what you've posted I recommend UK bankruptcy as it's your best hope. 

You need to hire an expert, it costs about 5K I believe, but for you it might be more as the situation is more complex as you've a lot of properties. Not sure how they base their fee. Steve Thatcher is the one person on AAM who deals with Irish bankrupts going to the UK, they literally walk you off the plane I believe. Please check out his posts for further information and you can contact him directly I'm sure. Otherwise ask your solicitor who he can recommend in the UK for you. Also check out the many threads on here on UK bank bankruptcy.

To make the UK your COMI requires a number of things, the experts will tell you what is needed, but it's basically residency, no ties with Ireland, giving your UK address to your creditors, de registering from the voting registry in Ireland and registering in the UK etc.  You act as thought the UK is your new home forever and sever all ties with Ireland.  

I don't understand your solicitors advice about selling. Are not all the deeds tied up with the loans, or are there some properties unencumbered? That is the only way you would be able to sell them. It is correct advice from your solicitor that it would be better to sell because it makes the bankruptcy process easier, but it is not necessary. 

You are correct to think that you selling is better than the receivers. You will get the best price, they couldn't care less. You can still sell the pub, agree to paying off the shortfall, this is generally a paper exercise by the banks, as they pretend you will somehow pay off massive debt with no income, but they do it exactly so that if you win the lotto, inherit etc they will get their hands on that in a few years, meanwhile they decide how much you can spend on your groceries. But after the sale you can still go UK bankrupt.

Don't worry about what judgements are or will be put against you, bankruptcy will wipe that. 

One problem is the family home. In all likelyhood the bank will put a judgement mortgage on it. For your 'share' currently worth zero. Not sure what happens in that scenario, maybe Steve Thatcher could clarify. In any case your wife becomes fully liable for the mortgage. 

You absolutely need to hire an expert. Particularly as you have a wife and family. Because if you are going to go bankrupty you need to get it right.


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## Brokeashell (16 May 2013)

Many thanks for taking the time to write a reply Bronte.

I agree that I do need an expert as I now more than ever need to protect my family. 

Can anyone recommend someone? Is Steve Thatcher the man- where can I get in contact with him? 

Thank you again for taking the time to consider my situation.


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## Bronte (16 May 2013)

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=170820

Above is the link to the thread on bankruptcy that Steve did. You see at the bottom of that is his company. You can contact him via that or by sending him a PM but hitting his name (though I'm not sure if new posters can do that. 

I personally do not know Mr. Thatcher, but he gives good advice on here etc. 

I don't think there is any one else on AAM who deals with the UK bankruptcy system?

Brokeashell, it's time you took charge of the mess you are in and sort it out, because nobody else is going to do it for you. I base this on the fact that you said you are at your wits end.  I know a bit about business so I can understand that.  

Let us know how you get on, it will be very helpful for others.


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## Brokeashell (16 May 2013)

Thank you so much Bronte.

Are there any people on here who have gone through the whole process in The UK already? What were their experiences like?


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## DonJuan30 (16 May 2013)

MY ANSWERS IN CAPS... (I AM IN THE UK TO GO BANKRUPT) 


* If I move to the UK-what do I do then? If I cant get a job am I entitled to welfare? 

YES I BELIEVE SO BUT I DIDNT LOOK INTO THIS AS I GOT WORK. REMEMBER YOU'RE NOT BANKRUPT WHEN YOU GO OVER, SO BANKRUPTCY WONT APPEAR ON ANY CREDIT CHECK A NEW EMPLOYER WOULD DO! MAYBE A JOB IN FINANCIAL SERVICES IS A POSSIBILITY - IF THEY LIKE YOU THEY MAY NOT MAKE A BIG DEAL OF YOU BECOMING BANKRUPT LATER.

* If I am unemployed how can I show the UK as my centre of main interest? 

RENT AN APARTMENT/ROOM IN A HOUSE, OPEN BANK ACCOUNT AND SHOW REGULAR WITHDRAWALS FROM CASH POINTS IN UK, TRY TO GET A JOB AND SHOW YOUR CONTRACT OF EMPLOYMENT AND REGULAR SALARY PAYMENTS INTO BANK ACCOUNT, CLOSE ALL YOUR IRISH BANK ACCOUNTS. GIVE THE BANKS THAT HOLD YOUR MORTGAGE YOUR NEW UK ADDRESS AND TELL THEM TO WRITE TO YOU THERE. I STOPPED PAYING MY MORTGAGES IN JUNE 2012 AND WROTE TO THEM 3 MONTHS LATER TO TELL THEM I HAD MOVED TO THE UK. THE SAME GENERIC TYPE LETTERS KEPT COMING FOR THE NEXT 5-6 MONTHS. IN OTHER WORDS, THEY ARE NOT PUTTING 2+2 TOGETHER AND ASSUMING YOU ARE IN THE UK TO GO BANKRUPT - OR IF THEY ARE, THEY KNOW THERE'S VERY LITTLE THEY CAN DO ABOUT IT AND IT WILL BE COSTLY IF THEY DO DECIDE TO DO ANYTHING!

* I have been advised to sell all my properties (fire sale) prior to going to The UK to bring the losses to a head- will the bank consent to this? Can I sell them without their consent or knowledge?

THERE IS NO NEED TO DO THIS IF YOU DO NOT WANT TO. I FELT RAILROADED A BIT BY MY SOLICITORS, BUT IT WAS SO FAR DOWN THE ROAD THAT I LET IT CONTINUE. THE PROPERTIES ARE NOW SOLD, WHICH WILL MAKE IT EASIER FOR THE OFFICIAL RECEIVER IN THE UK, AND HOPEFULLY MEAN A LOT LESS CONTACT WITH HIM WHEN I GO BR.


* I can borrow approx €20k from parents to get myself established in the UK but how will a bankruptcy court view that in 3-6 months time- that I used this money to live on rather giving it to the banks here?

IN YOUR CASE I WOULD KEEP SOME OF THAT 20K IN CASH. THE COURTS WON'T CARE IF YOU BROUGHT 10/15K OVER AND SPENT IT OVER A 3-6 MONTH PERIOD. ONCE YOU ESTABLISH YOUR COMI AND SHOW YOUR EARNINGS IN THE UK DO NOT MATCH YOUR LIABILITIES,THEN THAT IS THE MAIN THING. ALSO, YOU NEED TO SHOW THAT YOU INTEND TO STAY IN THE UK FOR THE FORESEEABLE FUTURE, ie a lease for at least the following 3-6 months after your court date.

* How will our family home be treated when I try to go bankrupt? 

CAN'T ADVISE YOU HERE, SORRY!


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## Gerry Canning (16 May 2013)

Frost Debt management 0749364000 ,did a good job on one man i sent. They operate in Uk and Ireland. Suggest phone them , take their initial advice and decide then.

And good luck.


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## Brokeashell (16 May 2013)

Thank you all so much for your help. If anyone else has any comment or advice please feel free to post or send me a message


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## Brokeashell (16 May 2013)

@ Don Juan30

Do you know if there is any maximum figure which I would be advisable to earn above in the UK? If I do decide to go bankrupt in the UK & I have secured a job with a £80k salary which obviously allows me to make payments to creditors for the 12 months- can this 12 month period be extended?

If I am lucky enough to get a good job in UK I have no problem making payments through the bankruptcy court for a year but I don't want to stay over there for one minute longer than I have to.

The problem with financial services is that Central Bank or FSA won't allow me to operate in the business if bankrupt or even if insolvent & in an arrangement with creditors so that career is simply not an option now- unfortunately as it is the only thing I know.


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## DonJuan30 (16 May 2013)

The OR will allow you reasonable living expenses and anything above that could be taken to give to your creditors - called an income payment order. If you get a job on 80k you will definitely be put in an IPO. You would be in that for 3 years. If no IPO is put in place the bankruptcy ends after a year. I chose to get a low paying job so this wouldn't be a factor. Means day to day living is very tight but I have some cash set aside to have the very odd treat...hence my suggestion to keep some of your 20k in cash.

By the way I am also in financial services, and while certain roles may be ruled out as a result of BR (ie those in an advisory capacity etc) not all are! If your employer is satisfied that your BR does not impede your day to day job they can make that case to the CB if they ever come calling. 

Hope it works out well for you. Bronte's suggested contact is probably a good place to start btw.


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## Bronte (17 May 2013)

salmon9077 said:


> Frost Debt management 0749364000 ,did a good job on one man i sent. They operate in Uk and Ireland. Suggest phone them , take their initial advice and decide then.
> 
> And good luck.


 
I didn't realise that, and he's a poster on here sometimes as Frostie.  So that's another person Broke can contact.


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## Bronte (17 May 2013)

DonJuan30 said:


> . If you get a job on 80k you will definitely be put in an IPO. You would be in that for 3 years. If no IPO is put in place the bankruptcy ends after a year. I chose to get a low paying job so this wouldn't be a factor.


 
Yes it was my understanding that one should only get a job that wouldn't result in getting the 1 year extended to 3. 

Presumably the UK has a table of a reasonable amount for living expenses, do you know what salary would be allowed for that DonJuan? If you don't mind me asking also, are you doing the bankruptcy yourself or did you hire an expert?

Broke in relation to the family home in UK bankruptcy, I'm nearly sure we had advice on this on here so go back through all the posts and check.  I cannot currently remember what happens.


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## DonJuan30 (17 May 2013)

Hi Bronte,

I hired an expert. I also got 2nd opinions from an Irish law firm with expertise in insolvency just to be sure there wasn't anything I wasn't prepared for. It was expensive, and I didn't have a huge amount of money, but for the peace of mind it was the best money I spent.  I would recommend it to anyone who is thinking of doing this.


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## DonJuan30 (17 May 2013)

Bronte,

Regarding the living expenses, it depends on the part of the UK you are in.  London is more expensive than Liverpool, etc, so it varies.  1200-1500 pounds is probably a reasonable estimate.  That would cover rent, utilities, food, transport, haircut and a small amount for contingencies/phone perhaps.  Make no bones about it, you dont get to live like a king!   

(If there is a family/couple involved, obviously the amount increases - I have based the above off an individual...)


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## Brokeashell (18 May 2013)

Thanks for that DonJuan30. If you don't mind me asking what kind of earnings are you showing? I have been looking for work with salaries of approx £30k is that too high?

Your advice has been very enlightening - thank you again & I am sorry for all the questions.


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## Jim Stafford (18 May 2013)

The complexity of your situation might actually create an opportunity for you to do a deal with the bank.  For example, if the bank do not have a charge on the valuable chattel assets of your pub they may be prepared to forgive the negative equity in return for taking the chattel assets etc. The whole area of validity of charges on business properties is very complex, and we have negotiated such deals.

Going bankrupt in the UK (or Ireland for that matter) may result in you losing the family home etc. 

Whilst bankruptcy may be the best solution for you, I would suggest that you have an independent objective view carried out of your financial circumstances.

Whilst we have advised some clients to go to the UK to go bankrupt, we have also advised other clients (who had been advised to move to the UK to go bankrupt) to actually return to Ireland (on the basis that the initial advice to go bankrupt was flawed!)

Jim Stafford


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## Time (18 May 2013)

I would say even £30K would be too high. The average wage in the UK is around £26.5K. Those on average wages would be subjected to payment orders. 

I know of one person who works in asda and is not subjected to payment orders as the wage is too small. 

You need professional advice.


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## DonJuan30 (19 May 2013)

I'm took a job on 24k, which works out around 17.5k net. prob could earn a little more, but i didnt want to run the risk of the IPO.

A few other things i would advise you to do;

If you're sellng the properties before you go bankrupt, start the ball rolling as soon as you get to the uk. Also, let your solicitors do all the discussions with banks...i stayed well clear of having any interaction with them.

If you have a pension, also start the ball rolling early to move it across, as it took ages to do.

No worries btw, happy to answer any questions you have.


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## Steve Thatcher (21 May 2013)

Hi everybody, an interesting thread, for what it's worth here is my two penneth

* If I move to the UK-what do I do then? If I cant get a job am I entitled to welfare?

Yes you would be entitled to welfare, but perhaps not straight away. I have clients who are on wlefare, and they have no problem going bankrupt. By far the majority get some work, any work, as it roots you to the UK. For COMI purposes there is nothing better than a wage slip and money going into a bank account.
It perhaps used to be the case that some people went bankrupt and weren't actually in the UK. That in my experience is never the case now

* If I am unemployed how can I show the UK as my centre of main interest?

You would have support from friends and family resulting in money being lodged in a UK (Barclays) bank account, which you used a laser card on everyday.

* I have been advised to sell all my properties (fire sale) prior to going to The UK to bring the losses to a head- will the bank consent to this? Can I sell them without their consent or knowledge?

This is what some recommend but is not necessary. It can help the OR, as he then only has an unsecured liability to deal with. If you start this when you first move to the UK, it will be done by the time you are ready to petition. My view is that firms who encourage this are simply out for a conveyancing fee. My firm advice is that all property is returned to the bank prior to the bankruptcy, usually in conjunction with advising the bank where you are now living.

* I can borrow approx €20k from parents to get myself established in the UK but how will a bankruptcy court view that in 3-6 months time- that I used this money to live on rather giving it to the banks here?

The OR or court will not give a fig

* How will our family home be treated when I try to go bankrupt?

It will vest in the OR. Again it depends on who owns it, who is on the mortgage, and who is going bankrupt. Generally if both own and go bankrupt, it vests in the OR and if it is in negative equity he will disclaim it or simply hand it back to the bank. You will not be liable to repay any shortfall it will be written off in the bankruptcy

If you have an occupational pension it is safe.
If you have a private pension, it cannot be guaranteed to be exempt property or safe. Under UK law the only pension which is safe is one registered with HMRC, hence why I provide the option to move it 

Get a job which only pays what you need to reasonably live on. for a single person this could be as little as £1300 gross per month. if there is a family involved it can be considerably higher. 
I do 'typical' expenditure sheets for my clients so they know in advance what to earn

I hope this clarifies matters

Steve Thatcher
www.helpwithdebtuk.com


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## Bronte (21 May 2013)

Steve Thatcher said:


> My firm advice is that all property is returned to the bank prior to the bankruptcy, usually in conjunction with advising the bank where you are now living.
> 
> 
> * How will our family home be treated when I try to go bankrupt?
> ...


 
A couple of questions if you don't mind Steve. In this particular case Broke cannot sell the properties as they are mortgaged so when he writes the letter to the bank telling them he is in the UK he literally hands the keys back by telling the bank they can have the properties as he is going bankrupt.

For Broke's case his wife is going to stay in the family home, she becomes liable for the full mortgages (jointly and severally liable) and how does it work then. What's the difference between the OR disclaiming it or handing it back?

Does the fact he is leaving a wife and children in Ireland matter to the OR?  Could it go against him.


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## Brokeashell (21 May 2013)

Hi Steve - thank you for your  extensive information. If I do decide to take the plunge I will certainly be using your services as the information you have provided is very clear and is explained very simply ( a sure sign that someone knows what they are talking about!!).

I have just a few more questions:

1. My home is in negative equity by between €75k-50k and is a joint mortgage with my wife (who won't be going bankrupt). I have been told that my wife can take over the property from OR for a nominal sum as it does not have any equity which can be used to pay creditors- is this true?

2. If I moved to The UK & secured employment can I legitimately send home some money to help my wife look after our kids- will this be allowed as "living expenses" when I come to applying for bankruptcy? Or must I appear to sever all ties with my family & Ireland?

3. I have been offered voluntary surrender of some of my properties by the lender- but they want me to sign to accept full judgement for the full amount of the loan- should I do this? I lose control of the sale & potentially end up with a larger judgement than is necessary? Does this matter when I will most likely go bankrupt anyway?

4. There is a chance that I will offered a position in the UK this week with a salary of €25k- is this too much? Can I claim my own living expenses & a portion towards my kids in Ireland or just my own living exps in UK.

5. Where are u based in The UK- I should really take a trip to see u I think?

I am really sorry for all the queries but I never thought I would be in this situation and now that I am nearing my final decision it is all the "small" hings which matter.


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## Bronte (21 May 2013)

I think Broke you need to contact Steve personally and hire his services.


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## Brokeashell (21 May 2013)

I hear you Bronte- once I have "bitten the bullet" and made a final decision I think I need to make an appointment with this man. At least one of us needs to know what we are at!!!


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## Steve Thatcher (21 May 2013)

Brokeashell said:


> Hi Steve - thank you for your  extensive information. If I do decide to take the plunge I will certainly be using your services as the information you have provided is very clear and is explained very simply ( a sure sign that someone knows what they are talking about!!).
> 
> I have just a few more questions:
> 
> ...



Ahh, all the small questions is what makes my advice so valuable and why I have to charge for my consultations. The need to make a living sometimes trumps the desire to give free advice all the time.

Here you have plenty of info to help you make a proper informed decision

Steve Thatcher
www.helpwithdebtuk.com


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## Brokeashell (21 May 2013)

Thanks Steve- I have sent you a private mail & look forward to setting up a consultation at your earliest convenience.


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