# A rant about skills (the lack of them)



## Purple (19 Jan 2012)

Even with the downturn it’s still very hard to get a competent construction sector tradesperson (Carpentry, plumbing, electrical, painting, plastering etc). 

There are loads of them about but very few of them are any good. I’ve never hired a painter, plasterer or carpenter and been happy with their work quality. I’ve never been able to say that they did a better job than I could do myself. I’ve never been happy that they turned up when they said they would and did the job when they said they would to the appropriate standard. I know that it was a seller’s market over the last decade but the standard of workmanship from Irish tradespersons is generally appalling. 

We face the same problem in work; we can’t get competent staff with the appropriate skills and training but that’s a problem all over Europe in my sector. They are well paid jobs too, anything from €20 to €40 an hour. The people we do get are from Eastern Europe and the UK. They have a much better appreciation of quality and doing exactly what they are meant to do and putting their hand up when they make a mistake. 

Unfortunately most of the Irish people we hire still have the “ah, sure it’ll be alright” attitude so they don’t last long. I talk to other people in my field and they say the same thing; they can’t get the people. 

I talk to friends in IT and IT related services and they say the same thing; they can’t find the skilled people they need. 

There’s hundreds of thousands of people unemployed in this country. Where are the skills?


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## dmos87 (19 Jan 2012)

What do you do and how can I do it


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## nai (19 Jan 2012)

The good people are still snowed under with work!

Where u based ? Is your location a restricting factor?


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## gianni (19 Jan 2012)

Slightly OT but I have just spent my second evening at home waiting for a plumber to call for a job. Neither called to say they wouldn't make it and both confirmed they would be there when contacted earlier in the day...

End rant.


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## DerKaiser (19 Jan 2012)

Purple said:


> We face the same problem in work; we can’t get competent staff with the appropriate skills and training but that’s a problem all over Europe in my sector.


I'm working on a 1 in 3 theory as regards competent people at work.  Out of every 3 people we hire, 1 will exasperate you with incompetence, 1 will muddle by and 1 will more than carry the others with attitude and ability.  

The funny thing is, they won't come along uniformly.  You can easily end up with a team of 5 or 6 people and no stars, but then when you've just about thrown in the towel, you unearth a couple of good people in a row and your faith is restored.


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## thedaras (20 Jan 2012)

I blame the public sector   
Ill grab my coat!


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## micmclo (20 Jan 2012)

edited out, went a bit offtopic


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## Purple (20 Jan 2012)

nai said:


> The good people are still snowed under with work!


 True, and that’s the case all over Europe.



nai said:


> Where u based ?


 Dublin area.



nai said:


> Is your location a restricting factor?


 In what sense?


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## Purple (20 Jan 2012)

gianni said:


> Slightly OT but I have just spent my second evening at home waiting for a plumber to call for a job. Neither called to say they wouldn't make it and both confirmed they would be there when contacted earlier in the day...
> 
> End rant.


 That's exactly what I'm talking about.


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## Purple (20 Jan 2012)

DerKaiser said:


> I'm working on a 1 in 3 theory as regards competent people at work.  Out of every 3 people we hire, 1 will exasperate you with incompetence, 1 will muddle by and 1 will more than carry the others with attitude and ability.
> 
> The funny thing is, they won't come along uniformly.  You can easily end up with a team of 5 or 6 people and no stars, but then when you've just about thrown in the towel, you unearth a couple of good people in a row and your faith is restored.



We’re looking for people who are not particularly qualified (tough if they are it’s a bonus) but are highly skilled.
The problem is that it takes around 10 years to get to the level what someone would be considered “fully skilled”. 
That’s if they had the aptitude and attitude to start with.
A generation of mechanical engineers (degree level and trades) became builders. That skills shortage will impact on this country for a generation.


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## Firefly (20 Jan 2012)

We've had mixed luck in getting work done on our house. It was in pretty rough cosmetic shape - don't think anything was done to it since the early 70s (and not in a cool way - it was yuck).

The worst luck we had was the following....

My first cousin was out of work at the time and has a child also. My mother said he did some work for her and was very good. So I gave him a call and he called around to inspect the work. Basically we had a lot of stuff to be done so we agreed on a daily rate (I wasn't too worried about this as he is afterall my cousin). We agreed that he would start on Monday morning and arrange for the kids to be looked after etc for the first few days as there was a lot of wallpaper removing and painting to be done. Mrs Firefly rang me at half 10 on Monday asking was he coming! I rang him again and again and finally got through to him at lunchtime and he told me he was in the pub all day the day before and wouldn't make it in! I put it down to a 1 off. He is meant to be a carpenter and said fitting cornicing was no problem. I bought pretty good stuff and enough to do our downstairs hall area and 2 bedrooms upstairs. He made such a mess of it he was only able to do 1 bedroom. The last straw came when I asked him to sand the wooden floor in a pretty small room. I picked up the sander etc with all the bits. He rang me that morning and...wait for it....said that the work was too hard and he would need to up his rate! I then calmly told him that's fine...I'll pop up tonight and sort you out as I think that's all the work I have now. It was a pity because I had at least another 2 weeks work left.


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## cork (20 Jan 2012)

The problem is that govt are cutting back on courses for those without work.

Where is the push for re-skilling?

This govt have shut training centres and cut back on back to education allowances.

To add insult to injury that have hit funding on any post grad course.


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## Purple (20 Jan 2012)

cork said:


> The problem is that govt are cutting back on courses for those without work.


The problem is that we haven’t been training people in this area for 10-15 years. The problem is that FAS and the Department of Education wrecked the apprentice training system nearly 20 years ago. Since then the numbers training have dropped off. The cause is a mixture of easy money in construction trades (which are less skilled so it’s easier and faster to become competent) and the fact that the current training system doesn’t produce the correct skills. The reason that Eastern Europeans are better skilled is because their training system is closer to the German model which is much better than ours.




cork said:


> Where is the push for re-skilling?


 The perception out there is that if you take a guy and “train” him for 6 months he will be “re-skilled”. It’s utter nonsense; you can’t turn someone with skills that are no longer needed into someone with different but equal skills in a matter of months.  



cork said:


> This govt have shut training centres and cut back on back to education allowances.
> To add insult to injury that have hit funding on any post grad course.


 That’s because the last government destroyed the economy and then shackled the current government into the Croke Park agreement.


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## cork (20 Jan 2012)

Purple said:


> That’s because the last government destroyed the economy and then shackled the current government into the Croke Park agreement.



I thought the last government did ok. They were the ones that cut expenditure and increased taxes and levys on the same public sector.

The Croke Park deal was never set in stone. It has many "get out" clauses just to be triggered.


Schools/Colleges in this country are not being utilised.

Education opportunities are being cut back - at a time when our politicians are getting allowances for dry cleaning.


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## Purple (20 Jan 2012)

cork said:


> I tought the last government did ok. They were the ones that cut expenditure and increased taxes and levys on the same public sector.


The last government, which was in power for a decade, is the one that destroyed this country’s economy. The fact that they were forced to start fixing their own mess by the EU/IMF is not something that they deserve credit for.




cork said:


> The Croke Park deal was never set in stone. It has many "get out" clauses just to be triggered.


 Yea, right.


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## Firefly (20 Jan 2012)

cork said:


> *I thought the last government did ok*. They were the ones that cut expenditure and increased taxes and levys on the same public sector.


 
I know it's Friday afternoon and all that...but seriously


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## Black Sheep (20 Jan 2012)

We don't often get in the builders unless there is serious construction needed. We do most of our own DIY. However last year we decided time for replacement windows. 
This was the first time builders came on the day and time agreed, did the job within the agreed time, and never left a trace behind them. They came equipped with their lunches, would not even accept a cup of coffee. Dust covers went on all carpets and stairs. They cleaned the windows and took out their own hoover for a final clean up before leaving.

We commended them on their work and gave them a tip. Well worth it!!


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## june (21 Jan 2012)

I've had several painters in over the years.

No one has ever done a better job than my own brother who trained with a firm of painters while he was going to college. He is a perfectionist and has always had a great pride in his work. I think that is what it comes down to.

Ironically he is redundant from the professional job and painting my house again!


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## JP1234 (21 Jan 2012)

It is not just in the trades. Lack of skills and pride seems to be common now.  I have been fortunate to secure a permanent job recently and I alternate between shock and dismay at the shoddyness of some of the work that I see. Most of the people where I work got their jobs in 2007/8, fresh out of college and the majority walk around believing they are doing superior work. Yet a quick glance at emails to external clients/customers show up spelling errors, lack of punctuation, poorly worded and often not addressing whatever the issue is. More often than not they are 2 or 3 days late.

On top of that, in the 3 months I have been there, out of a team of 18, 15 have had at least 1 day off sick Coming back late from break or lunch is the norm. We have a new manager who is starting to address these and numerous other issues and you can imagine the bitching going on about that!

And yet these cubs are complaining about pay and benefits, despite being paid way over the norm (I had to ring HR to confirm my salary offer was correct it was so much more than I expected and I am on entry level), we have a subsidised restaurant, free parking and most significantly a very good pension ( employer pays 7-10%, employee 3-6%)*

One of our H/O managers is quite open about saying a lot of the staff would not have a hope of getting employed by the company in todays market and there is a sea change from focussing on employing people with a piece of paper qualification to looking at proven ability.

* And yes it is in the private sector!


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## Black Sheep (21 Jan 2012)

I totally agree with the above but the worst part is you become the office crank when you do not go along with the "any old thing is good enough" attitude.


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## JP1234 (21 Jan 2012)

I am already seen as weird because I choose to eat my lunch alone in peace rather than sit 15 round a table designed for 6, bitching and moaning about how hard done by I am. I am simply relieved to have a job and will be doing my utmost to keep it.


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## micmclo (21 Jan 2012)

You'll get a reputation for being anti-social doing that

I know as I got that label


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## Purple (23 Jan 2012)

june said:


> I've had several painters in over the years.
> 
> No one has ever done a better job than my own brother who trained with a firm of painters while he was going to college. He is a perfectionist and *has always had a great pride in his work*. I think that is what it comes down to.


I think that's a big part of the problem with Irish people; they couldn't be bothered doing the job properly.


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## Bronte (24 Jan 2012)

The two best tradesmen I ever used were Irish, a plumber and a tiler.  But they are exceedingly rare and hard to find.  I would rate the quality of work of a Pole/Lituanian/Latvian more highly than the work of Irish tradesman.  Also their time keeping, dedication to getting the job done properly and taking pride in their work.  And their tidiness.  Hope some of it has rubbed off on the Irish lads.  In general now when I have work I ask a foreigner first as I feel I cannot trust the Irish workers.  No foreigner ever refused a job for being too small, plenty of Irish did.  

Irish workers who went abroad seemed to be a different type, particularly in the US.  Seeme to me a lot of the go getters left.  I know this is a generalisation but I have plenty of experience.  In addition they are excellent tenants to the point where I'd rather not have Irish tenant's.  Is that inverted racism?


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## S.L.F (26 Jan 2012)

Bronte said:


> Is that inverted racism?



Yes, generalisation and every other phrase I can think of.

There are bad Irish tradesmen and bad people everywhere, as Purple said the govt messed the whole system up when they brought AnCO in to take care of apprentices.

What used to happen before was a company would have so many tradesmen and for every trades men they could have 2 or 3 apprectices and the skills could be passed on but more you had to get rid of a trades man before you could get rid of an apprentice.

What we have now is a whole generation of half trained tradesmen who have nothing of value to pass on.

That said there are good guys out there but you have to know who they are.

I've seen good work by foreign tradesmen but I have also seen some appalling work by them as well.

Why not put a sign outside your house, "Irish need not apply"?


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## Chris (1 Feb 2012)

I've had mixed experience with trades people, but in general I have found the Eastern Europeans of a much higher standard. On two occasions I had an Irish plumber and an Irish carpenter out to do some work, and on both occasions an Eastern European was paid to fix problems that I spotted, plus they fixed other problems that they never initially quoted for.
What I liked most was that the Eastern Europeans arrived bang on time and were done in the time they said and for the price they said.
Worst experience was the Irish carpenter who destroyed a freshly painted wall and tried to tell me that a door not closing properly, one that he had hung, was not his problem. I have had a great Irish electrician though, but funnily enough he had learned his trade in Canada.


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## Protocol (2 Feb 2012)

We have 300,000+ unemployed, yet:

Google and other IT firms must import workers.

Three of the fishermen who drowned last week were Egyptian

Many shops in Dublin employ Asians

We import Asian and African doctors


There is clearly something wrong, a skills mis-match between the unemployed and vacancies.


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## Firefly (2 Feb 2012)

Protocol said:


> We have 300,000+ unemployed, yet:
> 
> Google and other IT firms must import workers.
> 
> ...


 
In the case of Google and other IT firms, they are generally looking for people with very specialist skills coupled with a lot of experience, so it's something we cannot immediately provide to them. Ditto for doctors..we could (and should) increase the numbers who study medicine, but again that would take 7+ years to filter through.

This leaves the unskilled jobs. There is no reason that anyone should not be able work in these jobs with minimal training. Therefore, you have to ask yourself why are these jobs not being filled. It's obvious that it's not in the person on the dole's interest..


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## nai (2 Feb 2012)

Protocol said:


> We have 300,000+ unemployed, yet:
> 
> Google and other IT firms must import workers.
> 
> There is clearly something wrong, a skills mis-match between the unemployed and vacancies.


 
There simply are not enough skilled/experienced people in ireland to fill these types of  jobs/roles and the bad press that the IT industry got during the early to mid 00's really hit hard in terms of the numbers of people applying to college for IT courses. And as numbers applying dropped the ability of the people dropped also.

eg Computer Applications in DCU (my old college course) for the past few years is as follows :
2011 - 340
2010 - 325
2009 - 315 
2008 - 300
2007 - 300
2006 - 300
2005 - 300
2004 - 300
2003 - 300
2002 - 350
2001 - 360 
2000 - 385
1999 - 385
1998 - 420
1997 - 410

It's good to see that some colleges / companies have started trying to upskill the types of graduates that are coming out of college but it will take some time before we have enough good people for the roles out there.


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## Purple (2 Feb 2012)

nai said:


> It's good to see that some colleges / companies have started trying to upskill the types of graduates that are coming out of college but it will take some time before we have enough good people for the roles out there.



Yes, that's the point; it takes years for people to reach the peak in their chosen field. I'd say at least 10 years in my area and I'd assume it's the same in IT etc.


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## Latrade (2 Feb 2012)

Purple said:


> Yes, that's the point; it takes years for people to reach the peak in their chosen field. I'd say at least 10 years in my area and I'd assume it's the same in IT etc.


 
Again, it's trade specific. I know Google are big on academic achievement first for their engineers (the DIT figures above are depressing) but like to take the best of the best (as it were) from college and have them fresh to fit into the google culture. Similarly, they'd take a manager with an MBA over managers with no academic background and experience in most cases.

I think the construction boom just had too much to do with losing skills, so many industries built up around it or were riding the coattails that we were just too narrow in our education.

Ironically, some of the surviving construction companies are starting to do ok and are recruiting. I was talking to a few yesterday and they're facing a massive problem in that they can't recruit Irish engineers with experience because they aren't here anymore and don't want to come back. They're having import skills. 

Just one last note to keep the sweeping generalisations going. I recently had call to use an Irish carpenter and Irish plumber. The work was second to none (carpenter even came back a week later as he wasn't happy with the way he'd installed a runner and it had been bugging him. He basically took out a whole unit and did it again even though we thought it was fine). 

This is alonge side work that was done via foriegn labour where we had to keep getting them out to fix several issues over and over. In the end, the plumber even offered to fix some of it while he was there. 

So, it's pot luck who you get. But every trade and every skill has it's good and bad irrespective of nationality.


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## Sunny (2 Feb 2012)

Latrade said:


> Just one last note to keep the sweeping generalisations going. I recently had call to use an Irish carpenter and Irish plumber. The work was second to none (carpenter even came back a week later as he wasn't happy with the way he'd installed a runner and it had been bugging him. He basically took out a whole unit and did it again even though we thought it was fine).
> 
> This is alonge side work that was done via foriegn labour where we had to keep getting them out to fix several issues over and over. In the end, the plumber even offered to fix some of it while he was there.
> 
> So, it's pot luck who you get. But every trade and every skill has it's good and bad irrespective of nationality.


 
Now, don't go ruining things by talking common sense!


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## Purple (2 Feb 2012)

Latrade said:


> Again, it's trade specific. I know Google are big on academic achievement first for their engineers (the DIT figures above are depressing) but like to take the best of the best (as it were) from college and have them fresh to fit into the google culture. Similarly, they'd take a manager with an MBA over managers with no academic background and experience in most cases.



True but Google then train them. Many businesses don't have the resources to do that. It will still take a number of years for them to peak, even within Google.

I agree with your point about construction trades (and pot luck).
I don't care where the skilled people came from as long as they are here.


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## nai (2 Feb 2012)

Purple said:


> Yes, that's the point; it takes years for people to reach the peak in their chosen field. I'd say at least 10 years in my area and I'd assume it's the same in IT etc.


 
It's the same but getting better - I've just got involved with lecturing some students in DIT on a MSc course that is very industry aware - the college wanted industry professionals to give the courses rather than academics - go figure


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## Purple (4 Feb 2012)

nai said:


> It's the same but getting better - I've just got involved with lecturing some students in DIT on a MSc course that is very industry aware - the college wanted industry professionals to give the courses rather than academics - go figure



I've had dealings with Bolton Street, Maynooth, UCD and Trinity over the years. Bolton Street were very industry aware, Maynooth less so but still good. UCD and Trinity were in a world of their own. Obviously I can only speak about my own experience and that is limited and specific to a particular field but the engineering department in Bolton Street stands out for me as being very willing to engage with industry in a practical day-to-day way whereas the rest were just harvesting grants for their post-grad students.


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## Bronte (9 Feb 2012)

Well Purple someone has been listening to you, they were discussing a new tax option to hire skilled people on the radio yesterday. But maybe it was just a tax dodge. 

Question for you, how come these colleges you liase with don't have a course for the particular skill set your company (and others) require. When my kids are older I'll sign them up for it as a real course because with a real job at the end would get my vote.


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## Purple (9 Feb 2012)

Bronte said:


> Well Purple someone has been listening to you, they were discussing a new tax option to hire skilled people on the radio yesterday.  But it maybe just a tax dodge.
> 
> Question for you, how come these colleges you liase with don't have a course for the particular skill set your company (and others) require.  When my kids are older I'll sign them up for it as a real course because with a real job at the end would get my vote.




Hi Bronte, The problem is that I'm talking about apprenticeships that require the engineering department of a college and FAS to run the overall training. I don't blame FAS for the changes; it was the department of education that screwed things up. They in turn were influenced by organisations like the ESB and other so-called commercial semi-states who wanted more "talk and chalk" to make trades into pseudo-diploma courses. It also suited the building trades as their skill levels aren't as high. It left engineering trades in an impossible position.  
The trainee has to do a 4 year apprenticeship and then spend an additional 4-6 years working under an experienced tradesperson to become fully competent. Along the way they will also have to get a CAD/CAM qualification (or training) and a host of other ancillary training. At that stage they will never be out of a job. In reality it’s not much different to any other skilled job; you learn and train long after you are nominally qualified and it takes time to get to the top of your game. I’d suggest that there are plenty of technically harder jobs out there that don’t pay as well.


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## Bronte (10 Feb 2012)

Purple said:


> ; it was the department of education that screwed things up. They in turn were influenced by organisations like the ESB and other so-called commercial semi-states who wanted more "talk and chalk" to make trades into pseudo-diploma courses. .


 
So the Department of Education run courses to suit ESB and other semi states ?

And previous work, a trade, has been changed to be more academic to suit them. Because everyone wants an academic training (diploma) and are not content to have 'just' a trade. Have I got that right? Kinda like nurses now with diplomas who won't clean patients or a bed pan or provide a cup of tea.


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## Purple (10 Feb 2012)

Yea, that's about it. The department doesn't run the courses but they have a significant input into developing them.
I remember as a third year apprentice sitting in a classroom in Bolton Street discussing Voltaire. Not he was a very interesting guy and we have a lot to thank him for but I don't see the link between Toolmaking and the evolution of thinking the culminated in The Enlightenment. 
The current course structure is subjective in how it’s graded and too abstract in its content. It places way too much responsibility on the employer to grade and rank the trainee and the employer has no objective standard to rank the trainee against.


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## cork (10 Feb 2012)

Main problem is that colleges are only utilised for a fraction of the year.

There is no push on to re-skill.

Government jobs iniatative was a PR stunt.
You can't even get tax relief if you do a course but there is incentives for property.
Crazy.


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## Purple (10 Feb 2012)

cork said:


> Main problem is that colleges are only utilised for a fraction of the year.
> 
> There is no push on to re-skill.
> 
> ...



You keep making that point. There's no way "re-skilling", i.e. a few evening courses, will solve out skills shortages.


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## amtc (12 Feb 2012)

To bring it back to the original point

- rang two plumbers recently - neither called back (also emailed both)

- Rang a painter - he said he'd call never did.


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## Purple (12 Feb 2012)

That wasn't the original point; the original point was that in a counrty with hundreds of thousands unemployed we still have major skills shortages.


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## cork (13 Feb 2012)

It would be a start.

There seems to be no attempt by govt to push people to upskill.

The tax relief on part time courses has even been cut.

Many colleges have gove over academic & should be focused on up-skilling.

Yet we have a government saying that they are trying to get people off welfare??

Talking to people on welfare - they would prefer to do something positive - but no options to upskill seem available.


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## blueband (13 Feb 2012)

thats very true, even the FAS training courses have be cut right back now.....no wonder so many are leaving the country.


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## cork (14 Feb 2012)

What we got yesterday in the jobs iniatative was guff.

We should be using the internet, TV, Radio, Community Schools, Libaries, NAMA hotels, NAMA buildings to re-skill.

What we got was another PR stunt.


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## Chris (17 Feb 2012)

cork said:


> Talking to people on welfare - they would prefer to do something positive - but no options to upskill seem available.



I don't believe that is true, there are plenty of options available to retrain, and the last thing people should be doing is looking to government to do the training. People need to be more inventive and stop looking for other people to do for them what they should be doing for themselves. Here's an example, I recently met an acquaintance from years ago. He was laid off from his job as a civil engineer in early 2009. With his redundancy money he bought a digital camera, and while looking for work, took evening and online courses in photography. He eventually got an engineering job as a contractor which provided a little bit of income and allowed him to build up second hand photography equipment. He now works as a self employed photographer.
As Purple points out, there are many skills that are in shortage *despite* the number of unemployed, including certain manual skills as well as certain engineering areas and IT. The amount of courses, in IT alone, that can be done online part time or full time, is huge. Any tradesman who has been pretty much out of work since the start of the crisis would at this stage almost have a degree in IT and a complete new career ahead.
If you are an unemployed carpenter or structural engineer for example, then you should not be looking to up-skill to become a better carpenter or engineer, you should be looking for different fields altogether.


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## Firefly (17 Feb 2012)

And there are so many that are free. A computer and an internet connection is all you really need. In my own field, the skills are pretty scarce and have been for some time. There is no barrier to entry (although experience is required at the higher level). For junior roles, I would imagine a personal dedication to studying material and messing around with online software/demos would impress most employers.


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## Pique318 (17 Feb 2012)

I work in IT and recently had to interview for a couple of open positions.

Around the same time, a pretty well known company in Dublin were laying off staff (due to their bosses financial irregularities in the US).

I interviewed 3 people from there and I was amazed how they were ever hired. Their skills were so pigeon-holed from working in that company that they were unhireable. 

It would have taken 6 months to get them productive for me. ( eg, I know how to make a cup of tea, but of these 3, one would know how to put water in the kettle and switch it on, one could pour boiling water on the teabag, and one could add milk and sugar). When I asked them about the tasks they did not do, it was 'another teams responsibility' and they were dissuaded from doing it! Their experience is going to severly restrict their chances of being rehired quickly or at the salary they expect.

I ended up hiring an English guy who was well experienced in all aspects of the job and could be productive in a week.

I've experienced various Indian contract houses where initiative seems to be a dirty word.

Also, location seems to be an issue in the sticks. People want 40-50k for a job worth 25-30k but ignore the much lower cost of living outside Dublin.

Others, understandably enough have houses bought while working in Dublin and cannot move.

The incentives for FDI into Ireland was solely concentrated on Dublin and to a lesser extent, Cork. Galway, Sligo, Athlone & Limerick were ignored and the result is these towns and their satellites are without any decent industry..but now I'm OT.


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## ajapale (17 Feb 2012)

Pique318 said:


> ..but now I'm OT.



You are a lot more on topic than many other posts in the thread!


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## Purple (19 Feb 2012)

Pique318 said:


> I work in IT and recently had to interview for a couple of open positions.
> 
> Around the same time, a pretty well known company in Dublin were laying off staff (due to their bosses financial irregularities in the US).
> 
> ...



There's been massive and targeted FDI into Galway (for example). That's why Galway is such a big medical device manufacturing hub. Cork has pharmaceuticals etc. Dublin gets the lions share but mainly in Financial services and IT. The problem now is that the jobs go where the skills are and we're short on skills.


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## ontour (19 Feb 2012)

Purple said:


> The problem now is that the jobs go where the skills are and we're short on skills.


 
We continue to have major jobs announcements in IT yet we have a massive skills gap.  

I don't believe that the 400,000 people who are unemployed do not have skills.  In the construction sector there are many people with very technical skills that they should be able to transfer to the IT sector.  I think that the IT sector has an image problem.  Some people would prefer to wait it for a recovery in the sector that they want to work in rather than transfer to IT.  Skills in IT can be gained online, through internships, self taught and self promoted.

The easy answer would be that they government are not targeting the inwards investment strategy to match the available skills.   But do we believe that there are inward investments available that match the available skills?  Many less skilled jobs in Ireland are a result of governments huge successes in pharma, IT and international financial services.


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## Purple (19 Feb 2012)

ontour said:


> The easy answer would be that they government are not targeting the inwards investment strategy to match the available skills.   But do we believe that there are inward investments available that match the available skills?  Many less skilled jobs in Ireland are a result of governments huge successes in pharma, IT and international financial services.



Many of the skills we have are not needed and will never be needed again, at the existing scale of supply.


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## bullbars (20 Feb 2012)

Pique318 said:


> I interviewed 3 people from there and I was amazed how they were ever hired. Their skills were so pigeon-holed from working in that company that they were unhireable.
> 
> It would have taken 6 months to get them productive for me. ( eg, I know how to make a cup of tea, but of these 3, one would know how to put water in the kettle and switch it on, one could pour boiling water on the teabag, and one could add milk and sugar). When I asked them about the tasks they did not do, it was 'another teams responsibility' and they were dissuaded from doing it! Their experience is going to severly restrict their chances of being rehired quickly or at the salary they expect.


 
I can relate to this; I find this more and more in large mutinationals that small/medium enterprises. It is as if the employees have initiative blinkers on; 
I do my bit and thats all and with any correspondance they CC the world and their mother as they are petrified of going outside their remit. It is shocking how some big businesses actual manage to operate with corporate stagnation.


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## ontour (22 Feb 2012)

The Paypal jobs announcement was perfect example of the mismatch of available skills and jobs announced.  This anouncement was simply viewed as 1,000+ people off the dole queue.  How many people on the dole have excellent written and spoken Turkish and 3 years experience in fraud prevention??

Most of the Paypal jobs will require importing the skills or taking them from other MNCs who will then import the replacements.

I am not saying that these jobs are a bad thing as there are plenty of positive knock on effects that are positive.


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## Chris (23 Feb 2012)

Purple said:


> Many of the skills we have are not needed and will never be needed again, at the existing scale of supply.



A perfect one line summary, but unfortunately you still regularly hear people from the various construction organisations about stimulating the sector back to its glory days. 



ontour said:


> The Paypal jobs announcement was perfect example of the mismatch of available skills and jobs announced.  This anouncement was simply viewed as 1,000+ people off the dole queue.  How many people on the dole have excellent written and spoken Turkish and 3 years experience in fraud prevention??
> 
> Most of the Paypal jobs will require importing the skills or taking them from other MNCs who will then import the replacements.
> 
> I am not saying that these jobs are a bad thing as there are plenty of positive knock on effects that are positive.



I was thinking exactly the same thing. This is the case with lots of IT jobs in recent times. Not only is there a lack of IT graduates, but there is a lack of IT gradates that learned something meaningful and up-to-date. IT is such a fast moving industry, but colleges do not seem to be keeping up with it, at least that is the impression I have had in recent years with graduates that I have encountered.


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