# Proceeds of crime



## JamesGG (20 Jul 2008)

Need to clarify something here, what exactly are the Gards powers with this act and sums of cash over the amount of €6500.


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## NicolaM (20 Jul 2008)

*Re: Proceeds of crime........*

Why do you ask?
Proceeds of crime act
Seizure of certain property. 	
15.—(1) Where an order under this Act is in force, a member of the Garda Síochána or an officer of customs and excise may, for the purpose of preventing any property the subject of the order being removed from the State, _seize the property._
(2) Property seized under this section shall be dealt with in accordance with the directions of the Court.


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## JamesGG (8 Aug 2008)

I take €10,000 out of the bank, give a loan to my bro. 6 months down the road my bro pays me back, I am stopped with x amount of cash, gard wants to take it. "its mine, my bro paid me back etc" "Gard under the proceeds of crime atc etc.....I am taking this"

How long can they keep it for, I was told 48 hours, then they must inform you they are applying to a judge for an extension, apply to judge and go from there.


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## Pique318 (8 Aug 2008)

Why were you stopped by the Garda ? The only reason I think he could have taken the money is if he believed it was the result of a criminal activity, which I thought you'd also be arrested for. Did you get a 'receipt' or something to say that the money was taken from you ?


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## rmelly (8 Aug 2008)

Can your brother prove he gave it to you e.g. recent withdrawal(s) from Bank/ATM etc?


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## aircobra19 (8 Aug 2008)

I don't understand why you were stopped, and how did they find it on you? A search?


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## JamesGG (8 Aug 2008)

This is a hypothethical (It did happen to someone before and yes they were arrested) under section 2 of the drug trafficking act even though there were no drugs etc. 
Gard said because of the area the person was in at the time etc. Whole thing went on for near a year and eventually they got it back, still had to spend about 1200 on a solicitor to "prove" their innocence. Thats why I wanted to know.


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## ClubMan (8 Aug 2008)

If the person you know got legal advice then presumably they know the answer and can tell you?


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## Wexfordguy (9 Aug 2008)

Something fishy here.
Why would anybody carry ten grand in CASH down the street for any purpose.
People use direct debits,cheques and money orders nowadays,not to mention internet banking.
I wouldnt take 200 euro out of an atm to give to somebody,i'd use the internet to pay it into thier account or hand them a draft.
And the cops just "happened" to know this "friend" was carrying the dosh?
Very suspicious.


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## ClubMan (9 Aug 2008)

Wexfordguy said:


> Something fishy here.
> Why would anybody carry ten grand in CASH down the street for any purpose..


Why not? Plenty of people do this for completely non-fishy reasons!


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## DavyJones (9 Aug 2008)

ClubMan said:


> Why not? Plenty of people do this for completely non-fishy reasons!




I agree, but most people would have a reason for carrying it and proof of where it came from.


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## Wexfordguy (9 Aug 2008)

ClubMan said:


> Why not? Plenty of people do this for completely non-fishy reasons!


 
If they had a screw loose maybe..cash we're talking about!
And i presume if they were banking the takings from a shop or whatever,the guards would know them or at least be able to check out thier story.


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## ClubMan (9 Aug 2008)

Several times I have carried several grand in cash for various (non fishy) reasons. I don't think I have a screw loose. There is no law against carrying your own money around in cash you know.


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## JamesGG (10 Aug 2008)

There are many reasons one could have this amount of cash, sale of car, etc. 
Person did get legal advice but the advice that was available was rather poor, and of the many solicitors one spoke to there was not a vast amount of information. And the whole thing lasted for near a year when there was nothing even remotel fishy about it.....

It you, I or anyone else wants to walk down the road with 20 grand cash, its my money whats the problem? Is it against the law?


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## aircobra19 (10 Aug 2008)

Its not the amount but why would you be stopped and searched. Thats the unusual part.


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## ClubMan (10 Aug 2008)

JamesGG said:


> It you, I or anyone else wants to walk down the road with 20 grand cash, its my money whats the problem? Is it against the law?


No. It's perfectly reasonable (albeit involving obvious security risks) for people to do this with their own money if they so choose.


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## DavyJones (11 Aug 2008)

aircobra19 said:


> Its not the amount but why would you be stopped and searched. Thats the unusual part.



Great question. so why was the person involved stopped , and under what law were they searched?


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## Pique318 (11 Aug 2008)

DavyJones said:


> Great question. so why was the person involved stopped , and under what law were they searched?


 
Hence why I asked...



Pique318 said:


> Why were you stopped by the Garda ?


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## DavyJones (11 Aug 2008)

Pique318 said:


> Why were you stopped by the Garda ? ?




Great question


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## JamesGG (11 Aug 2008)

Gard  "because the area was a known area for trouble". Searched under section two of the drug traifficking act 19something.


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## JamesGG (11 Aug 2008)

[broken link removed]

The gard never informed that they would be appying for this order which they are obliged to do so legally, so one can object to such an order.


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## ClubMan (11 Aug 2008)

JamesGG said:


> This is a hypothethical (It did happen to someone before and yes they were arrested) under section 2 of the drug trafficking act even though there were no drugs etc.


Er - so it's not a hypothetical situation after all?! 


JamesGG said:


> The gard never informed that they would be appying for this order which they are obliged to do so legally, so one can object to such an order.


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## Caveat (11 Aug 2008)

Was the person in question, as they say, " known to the gardaí " maybe?


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## JamesGG (11 Aug 2008)

no, no previous, and I mentioned before it "did" happen.


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## aircobra19 (11 Aug 2008)

Even your thread is dodgy looking. 

The Guards would have to prove its the proceeds of crime no. A funny walk isn't enough I'd assume.


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## JamesGG (11 Aug 2008)

Lot of assumptions going on here, would just like to point out that innocent until proven guilty is still a fundamental part of irish law. 

As Aircobra said a funny walk isnt enough, yet they could still hold onto the money for a long period of time. Why?


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## McCrack (11 Aug 2008)

You dont seem to have a clear question.
The Proceeds of Crime Act as amended allows for a Garda or Customs to seize cash where they have "reasonable grounds" to suspect the money is in essence dirty.

They applied for an extention in the District Court to hold it for up to 3 months whilst they make further enquiries and/or consider prosecution. This was granted as you know.

I mean this is all laid down in the legislation.


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## JamesGG (11 Aug 2008)

"reasonable grounds"

discuss.


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## McCrack (12 Aug 2008)

How long is a piece of string?

Discuss.

Well I'll tell you this. It's nowhere defined. Case-law has said that a 'hunch' is not sufficient and that some basis for the suspicion must be shown. It's an objective test which means whether a reasonable man would believe that there existed reasonable cause.

I dont know the circumstances. I doubt you will state them here. You can PM if you wish and I'lll give you my objective opinion but you probably know the answer.


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## sparkeee (12 Aug 2008)

gards dont just search joe public without reason.


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## ClubMan (12 Aug 2008)

sparkeee said:


> gards dont just search joe public without reason.


"Donegal" - discuss.


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## ClubMan (12 Aug 2008)

JamesGG said:


> Lot of assumptions going on here, would just like to point out that innocent until proven guilty is still a fundamental part of irish law.
> 
> As Aircobra said a funny walk isnt enough, yet they could still hold onto the money for a long period of time. Why?


Yes - but your query is very unclear and confusing. You originally said that it was a hypothetical situation, then that it happened to a friend and then that it happened to you. I'm confused.


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## Black Sheep (12 Aug 2008)

It's the title of this post that confuses me!!


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## bullbars (12 Aug 2008)

ClubMan said:


> "Donegal" - discuss.


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## JamesGG (17 Aug 2008)

Doesnt matter not the most helpful bunch round here anyway. Comments like if they sought legal advice they could tell you etc are great. Keep them up. Delete post if you wish.


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## DeclanP (17 Aug 2008)

JamesGG said:


> Doesnt matter not the most helpful bunch round here anyway. Comments like if they sought legal advice they could tell you etc are great. Keep them up. Delete post if you wish.



Getting a little defensive now. You sought advice, then became ambiguous and inconsistent. So where did the money really come from?


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