# Freemasons - What is expected?



## dmos87 (6 Nov 2010)

My fiance has recently decided to look into joining the Freemasons. a family friend told him that they are a member and it has sparked an interest. He went to a coffee morning this week to try and get more information. He enjoyed being shown around and conversing with members. Everything seemed very positive, albeit he can be somewhat naiive sometimes as he is very trusting.

From the outset, it all seemed harmless and mostly charity work / fundraising. I am obviously aware that it is men only and is more of a social outlet than anything else. And of course, the "secrecy" part - that doesn't bother me in the slightest as I think it's all hot air.

Having not known a lot about it, I told him fire ahead if it made him happy and I was not concerned in the slightest.

It was repeated to him many times at the coffee morning to "make sure the missus is ok with it before joining". If it was said once, maybe twice, I would have been dismissive. He tells me it was repeated at least 5 times. So of course I started to wonder was there something I needed to know. 

Enter Google! I searched up all I could find yesterday and I am most definitely now concerned. First off, I am not hugely religious but I was raised to go to Mass, etc. and practice Catholicism. We are engaged and have talked about a church wedding. It is very clear that the church is against the Freemasons, and I wonder if he was to join does that mean any vow we take within a church is a lie? Does this mean we cannot get married in a church?

I have come accross a few websites that talk of "oaths" they must take when joining. Most are general and not concerning in the slightest and are instead very moral. There is one vow I came accross that states any vow made to the Freemasons comes before any other vow made, including that of marriage. Does that mean that he must put his vows to them before that to me and his future family?

I mentioned them to my fiance and told him I wanted him to find out what oaths he would need to take as I wouldn't be comfortable with this particular one. He called his contact, who told him he had never had to make such a vow but couldn't offer an explanation as to why he was told to check that I was ok with him joining. 

Has anyone on here any experience of the Freemasons? I am talking actual experience, not just reading up online. Can they shed some light for me? Have I something to be worried about?


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## NOAH (6 Nov 2010)

a secret society,  its all in these 3 words, if it was "safe" why is it secret??

I dont think you will get many more replies.

n---


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## dmos87 (6 Nov 2010)

It's not really "secret" though, is it? anyone can walk in off the street. From what I gather they are trying to change that misconception.


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## lightswitch (8 Nov 2010)

Where is it then dmos87, and I'll pop into them during the week and post when I come back out?


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## Caveat (8 Nov 2010)

dmos87 said:


> First off, I am not hugely religious but I was raised to go to Mass, etc. and practice Catholicism. We are engaged and have talked about a church wedding. It is very clear that the church is against the Freemasons, and I wonder if he was to join does that mean any vow we take within a church is a lie? Does this mean we cannot get married in a church?


 
Firstly, I thought you had to be a protestant to be a mason - if not a 'rule', certainly in practice. Maybe things have changed though.

I've heard they take the 'good character' thing seriously too - be prepared for background checks maybe.


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## truthseeker (8 Nov 2010)

Caveat said:


> Firstly, I thought you had to be a protestant to be a mason - if not a 'rule', certainly in practice. Maybe things have changed though.


 
Nah - the official line is 'belief in a higher power' - although I do know a catholic who converted to protestantism to join so not sure how strict they are on it.

I know a few freemasons - seems harmless enough - more about feeling important than anything


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## Staples (8 Nov 2010)

Friend of mine "accepted an invitation" (the only way to get in apparently. You can't just "join".). He went ahead on the understanding that he'd develop some contacts that would benefit him over time. He's not the least bit altruistic or interested at all in doing "good works".

For a while he used to tell some very entertaining stories about moving up the ranks of membership and the silly ceremonies and oaths that take place around the process. Aprt from these time, from what I could gather, it seems to be mostly about middle-aged and older men (all of whom should know better) sitting around telling each other how important they are. It sounded, to me anyway, like the sort of overblown, but ultimately harmless, guff you might witness in a golf or rugby club.

My friend hasn't spoken much about the place in the last few years, possibly because I turned down his invitation to join. I get the overall sense from him though, that there's nothing much to it.


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## truthseeker (8 Nov 2010)

Staples said:


> Aprt from these time, from what I could gather, it seems to be mostly about middle-aged and older men (all of whom should know better) sitting around telling each other how important they are.


 
Thinking about this (and my own earlier post), I get the impression its the type of organisation that its probably more 'valuable' to join in a different country to Ireland. For example, if you were in the US and moved to a new town and wanted to join the posh country club, then you could probably call on a local lodge member to give you a leg up the applications ladder - but we dont really have situations like that in Ireland.


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## dmos87 (8 Nov 2010)

lightswitch said:


> Where is it then dmos87, and I'll pop into them during the week and post when I come back out?


 

The meeting place in Cork is on Tuckey st. 

I'm getting the impression that in Ireland it's more of a lads club than anything else, and any profits made go to charity. I think its different everywhere you go, but they definitely had no issue with the religion - we must just believe in a Higher Power and that is open to our own interpretation. 

I'm just really puzzled about the "check with the missus" comments.


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## Caveat (8 Nov 2010)

dmos87 said:


> I'm just really puzzled about the "check with the missus" comments.


 
She might object to an organisation that prohibits women I suppose.

There are women freemasons I think but they have their own version - it's regarded as a two tier system by many AFAIK.


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## Staples (8 Nov 2010)

Caveat said:


> There are women freemasons I think but they have their own version - it's regarded as a two tier system by many AFAIK.


 
Yeah.  Male pillocks and female pillocks.


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## dmos87 (8 Nov 2010)

Yep, the female version is known as the Eastern Star I think, something like that anyway.

I wouldn't care less about being allowed to join, I actually think it might be nice to be rid of him every once in a while!!


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## Imperator (8 Nov 2010)

I worked in the UK a number of years ago. On jokingly asking a colleague if he was a mason (during general banter) he replied that he was. He struck me as a decent individual, commited to good works, helping others, attending church etc.  He also said that if he lost his job that the Masons would have used their network to get him sorted - I replied that we (in Ireland) had an organisation that did that as well, known as the GAA.

I know one or two masons and at the lower-medium levels they operate more as a gentleman's club than anything else. They don't ban anybody from membership, but a Roman Catholic who joins is considered to be in a state of grave sin by the R.C. Church.

Imperator

(I'm not a member myself)


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## notagardener (8 Nov 2010)

I was invited out on a golf outing a few years back (in the good aul days) and was intrigued to find out, that most of the golfers on the outing were Freemasons. I forgot all about it after a few holes, as they were just ordinary folk (disappointing as it was ). One observation was, that most of them were owners of small business's. Since then I've met quite a few of them on working together on different projects, so it appears they look after each other. Could be a good thing for the OP's fiance to sign up, in these very uncertain times.


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## Mrs Vimes (9 Nov 2010)

Hi dmos,

I expect the "check with the fiance" thing is just so he doesn't quit because of falling out with you over it.

I know quite a few Freemasons and they are all very clear that their obligations are to Family, Job, Country and then to their Lodge.

It certainly wouldn't interfere in your relationship or your wedding vows except:
1. You might get sick of him going out at night and coming home smelling musty.
2. Your priest for your wedding might find out he's a mason and refuse to marry you (unlikely).
3. You might decide that your issue with the all-male membership is a problem for you, although I understand some of the (older) men are "allowed" out by the wives more easily when there are no women going to be present.

With regard to the "masons looking after each other" thing, I wouldn't hang your hopes on this, I know several masons who have been badly hit by the recession and membership hasn't been much help.  It's generally the case that only if all other factors are equal would you be expected to give business to a fellow mason.

A mason friend who employed another mason friend to build his extension a couple of years ago said he didn't hire him because of Lodge, but he did ask him to quote for this reason and his was the best quote.

Sybil


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## Staples (10 Nov 2010)

Mrs Vimes said:


> I know several masons who have been badly hit by the recession


 

Yes.  Stone masons have been particularly badly hit.


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## Dicette (10 Nov 2010)

In September, as part of the Culture Night event, I attended a recital by the RTE Vanderburgh (sp?) quartet in the Freemason Hall on Tuckey St in Cork. One of the members gave an interesting overview of the organisation and encouraged people to call to their coffee mornings. I got the impression that they would give tours/information on request.

Apart from the fact that I'm a woman - it wouldn't be my cup of tea, but it seemed fairly harmless to me.

The "guide" mentioned that they open up their doors to the public on a few other nights of the year for different events - I think one of them might have been a Christmas event - it's worth going just to see the main hall alone.


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## purpeller (10 Nov 2010)

I got a tour of the Dublin lodge on Culture Night and it was amazing.  I'm a woman and an atheist so joining isn't an option but they certainly seem to have reversed their secrecy policies.  The tour guide also said that any man could join, as long as they believed in a god and could pay the €100 sub.  Catholics are allowed join, but the Vatican would be seriously against it.  In fact, Daniel O'Connell was a prominent mason and he left after the RC church decided masons were not ok.


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## Caveat (10 Nov 2010)

What exactly is it that the RC church object so strongly to?

They don't seem to have a problem with the secrecy, ambiguity and questionable motives of the likes of Opus Dei.


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## Betsy Og (10 Nov 2010)

Caveat said:


> What exactly is it that the RC church object so strongly to?
> 
> They don't seem to have a problem with the secrecy, ambiguity and questionable motives of the likes of Opus Dei.


 
Suppose it's the risk of "false gods". That they assumed exclusive ownership of the one true God (and the rest of yiz are for the toaster!) is the ...err...leap of faith I'd be more dubious about.


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## Deiseblue (10 Nov 2010)

dmos87 said:


> Yep, the female version is known as the Eastern Star I think, something like that anyway.
> 
> I wouldn't care less about being allowed to join, I actually think it might be nice to be rid of him every once in a while!!



Prior to the formation of female lodges Lady Elizabeth St. Ledger of Co. Cork is the only woman to be initiated into the Freemasons in the early 1700's.

She hid in a cupboard in order to eavesdrop on a meeting and was discovered,
she was held under lock and key for a number of days whilst the brethren decided whether to initiate her or kill her , they opted for initiation - quite lenient I would have thought !


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## Betsy Og (10 Nov 2010)

Deiseblue said:


> Prior to the formation of female lodges Lady Elizabeth St. Ledger of Co. Cork is the only woman to be initiated into the Freemasons in the early 1700's.
> 
> She hid in a cupboard in order to eavesdrop on a meeting and was discovered,
> she was held under lock and key for a number of days whilst the brethren decided whether to initiate her or kill her , they opted for initiation - quite lenient I would have thought !


 

First the apple and now this , amazing that 1 rib can do so much damage


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## Yorrick (10 Nov 2010)

Opus Dei. The military wing of the Legion of Mary.


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## Towger (10 Nov 2010)

Yorrick said:


> Opus Dei. The military wing of the Legion of Mary.


 
Are they as good as the Swiss Guard? Did they serve their time in the French Foreign Legion first, or just stick barbed wire down their trousers?


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