# Abuse of Social Welfare System



## Dermot (24 Mar 2013)

I am aware of an individual in his early 60's an the following is his situation.
Married with no dependants,
They own their house with no mortgage.
They have no debts or loans.
Wife on disability pension.
He is retired.
He has a gross pension of 500 euro from a work related pension in state job.
He has savings of 75,000.
He is also on a disability pension and this is the part I cannot understand. It started out as a "twisted elbow" shortly after retiring. In order to preserve his stamps he got unfit to work certs from his GP. This started on weekly certs then went to monthly certs. This went on for almost 2 years and he applied for the disability pension. The initial application for disability pension was refused and he appealed it and he got his GP to upgrade the reports and after about 9 months he was granted the disability pension and full back payments. 
He was never on medication or did he have any physio or an operation on this "twisted elbow". He was never called before a social welfare examiner to be assessed at any time.
Am I missing something here?.
His wife has had a serious operation recently and they have no private health insurance and she has applied for a medical card to have it cover the operation.
He has also applied for a carers allowance while his wife is recovering and expects to get it.
I am aware of all the hardship cases out there and the trouble that they are experiencing and in a lot of cases they are not getting as much help as they deserve.
Is  it only me that thinks that what I have outlined above is an abuse. I have posted facts.


----------



## seantheman (24 Mar 2013)

Fill in the form if you think it's fraudulent  https://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/secure/ReportFraud.aspx


----------



## Dermot (24 Mar 2013)

seantheman. What frustrates me about all this that I did this prior to he being granted the pension and also rang afterwards all to no avail. I thought long an hard about this before doing it but it was to no avail. The annoying part about it is he brags about it and sees it as an entitlement. Thanks anyway


----------



## Time (24 Mar 2013)

There is no way in hell you can get invalidity pension for a twisted elbow.


----------



## Dermot (24 Mar 2013)

cashier. I do not have much idea about the social welfare system but from what I have picked up over the past six months the disability pension is not means tested in either of their cases and also the carers is not means tested. 
What concerns me is that social welfare in a period of almost 3 years have never medically assessed him themselves and if they did I know they would find nothing. 
Another concern is that is it possible that although carers is not means tested that he could get that allowance while drawing a disability pension.  
They have the fact that he is drawing his pension and that they are both getting the disability pension and the other benefits that go with it.
He has shown me his file.


----------



## Dermot (24 Mar 2013)

Time. That is what I would say myself but an exaggerated version of it by his GP has gotten him this and no medical assessment of it by a social welfare doctor.  I cannot understand that anyone would qualify for an Invalidity Pension without a medical assessment by social welfare at some stage. That is what I cannot understand because as I said before if he were examined he would not get it. I just wonder if there are any more like that out there.


----------



## Bronte (25 Mar 2013)

Dermot said:


> I
> 
> In order to preserve his stamps he got unfit to work certs from his GP.
> 
> ...


 
It's amazing that a GP would issue false reports, are you sure?


----------



## Dermot (25 Mar 2013)

Yes Bronte. I have seen this with my own two eyes and I find it incredible as do the posters who have commented.  
The other incredible part for me is that social welfare never called him before a medical referee/doctor while he was on the standard disability or prior to he being granted a disability pension. I am sure of this as well.
Yes it is incredible/ludicrous/etc, etc, etc,.  Has there been others who have gotten through the system like this. I have also heard of the opposite as I am sure others have.


----------



## Time (25 Mar 2013)

At the moment the DSP has opted to have most medical decisions made by medical advisors based on GP reports. These decisions are then rubber stamped by civil servants. The days of sending lists of claimants to see DSP doctors to have their entitlements reviewed are over it would seem.


----------



## Dermot (25 Mar 2013)

Thanks Time. It is making sense to me now how this happened. I am still dumbfounded though.


----------



## Time (25 Mar 2013)

Indeed, Dermot but the new practice at the DSP also does not help genuine claimants either as many cases are rejected purely for arbitrary reasons requiring the person to appeal and being directed to an independent doctor by the appeals office.


----------



## Dermot (25 Mar 2013)

Time I agree with your last post and it was the type of situation you refer to prompted me to start the thread. I had no idea of how the system works thank God.


----------



## Gerbo (6 Aug 2013)

Dermot,
What's ur problem.  If the guy is I'll and cannot work then he should be supported. You sound just a leetle bit annoyed that someone is getting one over on you


----------



## hippy1975 (6 Aug 2013)

Gerbo, it's not that he cannot work , he has no intention of working, and, even if we were to take him at his word that he would work but can't, how come he is the carer for his wife, if she really needs a carer that's a very difficult job, would be amazing that he could manage that but not other jobs (believe me, I know, I'm healing care for someone at present)

The really galling thing about it, whoever posted the link to refer fraudulent claims, is that this is probably not fraudulent as such but a symptom of a poorly designed system, people taking advantage of loopholes in the system, sharp practice at the very least and just because its possible does not make it justifiable


----------



## browtal (6 Aug 2013)

Hi,
I see what Dermot is talking about. 
A lady from Latvia, living in Ireland for the past 7 years, is receiving invalidity benefit.  She cleans 9 houses every week to supplement her income. I cannot explain this.
Another instance:

A couple has the following income:
invalidity Pension:    1127.97
spouses invalidity
Pension                    665.16  total  1793.13
Private pension                               678.57 total monthly income 2471.70
Plus medical cards

Both are able-bodied people who lead a very active life. Both were able  to participate in Fas work and a back to work scheme until recently?

This couple have a mortgage, which consists of mainly top-ups for  holidays etc., which they are refusing to pay. They feel they should not  pay as they can afford it.
There is massive abuse of the Social welfare system

What am I missing?  

Browtal


----------



## Time (7 Aug 2013)

How are they getting around the periodic reviews?


----------



## dereko1969 (7 Aug 2013)

browtal said:


> Hi,
> I see what Dermot is talking about.
> A lady from Latvia, living in Ireland for the past 7 years, is receiving invalidity benefit. She cleans 9 houses every week to supplement her income. I cannot explain this.
> Another instance:
> A couple


 


browtal said:


> Completion of previous posting:-
> A couple has the following income:
> invalidity Pension: 1127.97
> spouses invalidity
> ...


 
I presume you've reported all three using the form above? I'm not really sure what the nationality of the house cleaner has to do with anything, I note you don't mention nationality in the second post.


----------



## Time (7 Aug 2013)

I think the DSP has a tendency to ignore the activities of foreign nationals as they will simply play the race card if any action is taken.


----------



## dereko1969 (7 Aug 2013)

Time said:


> I think the DSP has a tendency to ignore the activities of foreign nationals as they will simply play the race card if any action is taken.


 
Based on?


----------



## Time (7 Aug 2013)

Anecdotal evidence based on observations. 

I personally know of a few cases of DA that have never been reviewed in over 10 years.


----------



## Purple (7 Aug 2013)

Bronte said:


> It's amazing that a GP would issue false reports, are you sure?


Why do you find this surprising?


----------



## dereko1969 (7 Aug 2013)

The same type of anecdotes that had all african refugees being given free cars etc? 

You state, based on observations, have you followed these people into the dole office or post office?

So, how many people do you suspect of fraudulent acitivity? How many of them are Irish? How many of them are foreign? How many of each type have been reviewed?


----------



## demoivre (7 Aug 2013)

Time said:


> I think the DSP has a tendency to ignore the activities of foreign nationals



.........and anyone likely to be ringing  pavee point for support.


----------



## demoivre (7 Aug 2013)

Bronte said:


> It's amazing that a GP would issue false reports



Or prescribe antibiotics when they are of not benefit to a medical condition !


----------



## pawid (7 Aug 2013)

I'm new here and usually browse the mortgage section as i'm hoping to be a first time buyer some time soon. Was browsing the rest of the site and came across this thread and felt the need to clarify a few things. I'm not a DSP employee but know a fair bit about the system through my work.

In relation to the start of the thread, the man and woman are likely on invalidity pension (IP). This is a non-means tested payment and based on a person's PRSI contributions. If you have the required number of stamps then you must satisfy the medical criteria. You say the man got the payment after appealing it and getting his GP to change something. What likely happened here is that the man was refused on the initial application and sought a review by submitting further medical evidence from his GP. Believe me, many GPs will write whatever is asked of them so it's not unusual.

IP applications are assessed by a doctor but not in person. The assessor looks at the GP report from the applicant. I can assure you, IP is proving very difficult to get at present. 

Carers allowance is means tested, carers benefit is not. A person who is getting IP may apply for half rate carers allowance. You mention he is on a 500 pension but don't say if it's weekly or monthly. If it's weekly, he likely exceeds the means test and will not get half rate carers. 

All in all, this man is not committing fraud. He is simply applying for payments which he is entitled to.

As for the other Latvian woman mentioned, there is no such payment as invalidity benefit. Certain disability payments allow a person to work a small amount of hours per week if the work is regarded as therapeutic or rehabilitative. It is unlikely that house cleaning would come under that category so it's possible that the woman is working for cash, in which case that is fraud.

Finally, the last example is similar to the first, there is no fraud here, only someone receiving a social insurance payment because they have the required number of contributions and satisfy the medical criteria. However, if their medical cards come up for review (minimum every 2 years) then they will likely lose them unless they are obscuring their private pensions somehow.


----------



## browtal (7 Aug 2013)

Pawid,
It seems wrong that someone can claim their retirement pension and disability benefit together.  
I thought there was an effort, in the past year, to prevent a person from receiving two social welfare benefits.

I have retirement pension, can I claim disability pension as I have contributions up to current date????????
I think my morals dictate that I would be wrong? The system is very poor if that is allowed.
Browtal


----------



## Brendan Burgess (7 Aug 2013)

Folks

I think that the original question has been answered at this stage. Feel free to continue the discussion in the Letting Off Steam forum

Brendan


----------

