# how will the recession affect you personally ?



## z106

How will the recession affect you personally?

As in - in your day to day living, how will you lose out?

Personally - i have some properties which i was hoping to remortgage to use to put forward to pay towards other properties which i have paid a deposit on that are not yet completed.
Looks like I may lose teh deposit on those if i can't flip them.

Also - I am an IT contractor - unquestionably there are fewer contracts around now.
(Then again - teh credit crunch is a contributing factor there. On teh other hand maybe the recession is partly a symptom of the credit crunch?)

And even if i do get one when my current contract ends (which i certainly would hope/expect) - i reckon the daily rates will be less. Maybe i'm wrong on that one though.


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## ninsaga

not at all....


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## Protocol

Very little impact.

Perhaps slower pay rises.


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## mercman

Well iof I were you I would prefer to lose the deposit rather than having to complete on residential property at this moment in time. Have you exchanged contracts yet ? You will have difficulty walking away if you have


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## z106

mercman said:


> Well iof I were you I would prefer to lose the deposit rather than having to complete on residential property at this moment in time. Have you exchanged contracts yet ? You will have difficulty walking away if you have


 
Have paid the 10%.

Will be dodgy on getting teh mortgages.

If i could flip one it would sort me out for teh other one though.

Time will tell.

May well lose teh deposit on both.

1 is in london - the other poland.


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## mercman

Don't know anything about Poland, but the London market is in a worse state than the Irish market. It is really heading for ti.mes which should be taken very carefully. Saying that depending on the location in London, you should be able to let it out


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## z106

mercman said:


> Don't know anything about Poland, but the London market is in a worse state than the Irish market. It is really heading for ti.mes which should be taken very carefully. Saying that depending on the location in London, you should be able to let it out


 
Renting it out ouldn't be a problem - it is in canary wharf.

The problem lies in that teh bank will only give me 75% of teh value prior to cpompletion - which is 3 years from now.

If the price sinks in teh meantime i will have to come up with teh 25% of the then value plus any drop in price between now and then.


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## mercman

Ah you're 3 years away. The whole market will have changed again by then. Of course the Banks wouldn't give you the money now. Are you looking for charity ?? Bloody good deal to get 25% now if you can.


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## z106

I'm aware they won't give me the money now.

They will only give out a mortgage maximum 6 months before completion.

However - my point was that by the time i do look for a mortgage, the value will probably be less than it is now.

Who knows thoiugh. Maybe i'm being pessimistic.


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## mercman

Well i've never heard of a Bank giving out mortgage money before completion and I deal in property.


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## z106

mercman said:


> Well i've never heard of a Bank giving out mortgage money before completion and I deal in property.


 
Mercman - i hear ye !

I'm agreeing with you. 

I don't think i ever said anything to suggest otherwise.

What i'm sayinbg is a bank will sanction a mortgage depending on teh value of the property.

The banks in teh uk allow a valuation hold for 6 months.

 So - if you get a valuation on a property that is more than 6 months away from completion any morgtage that gets sanctioned becomes redundant.


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## z106

Ok - i have re-read my posts and realise i worded it incorrectly.

Suffice to say mercman - i agree with you.


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## GeneralZod

qwertyuiop said:


> How will the recession affect you personally?



Not gloomy yet. This feels like the calm before the storm. No real pain yet other than an expected slower pay rise. Welcoming the property price correction.

No lifestyle cut-backs. Still planning to change car next year.


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## leesider29

Working in property so was already hit at the start of the year by this so no big news to me!! Have had to make a few lifestyle changes in the short term but I am confident business will still be coming in from other angles besides residential sales in the next few months.


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## mercman

leesider - I hope you are right !! I do think that when the US turns the corner and Commodity prices ease, little Ireland should gain a steady momentum again.


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## markowitzman

recession usually means we do better in healthcare as increased funding in downturn but with our behemoth (HSE)............WHO KNOWS!!


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## ninsaga

Jeez - enough of this 'George Lee' thread..... the end is nigh and all that


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## ccbkd

Big Changes for me, working as a construction Professional, I have provisionally accepted a post in Dubai working on a major project, can't wait to get out off Ireland, Its a scary place right now, I see this recession getting very bad by the turn of the year!


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## diarmuidc

ninsaga said:


> Jeez - enough of this 'George Lee' thread..... the end is nigh and all that



I don't get this attitude, which you hear all the time these days. If you address a problem you at least have some hope in dealing with it. If you stick your head in the sand, you are only going to get hit worse.



ccbkd said:


> Its a scary place right now, I see this recession getting very bad by the turn of the year!


Your industry has had the largest boom in our economy, it's only natural that you will see the worst of the recession. I wouldn't be so bleak about the rest of the economy (not saying we will avoid it).


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## Bubbly Scot

qwertyuiop said:


> Also - I am an IT contractor - unquestionably there are fewer contracts around now.
> 
> And even if i do get one when my current contract ends (which i certainly would hope/expect) - i reckon the daily rates will be less. Maybe i'm wrong on that one though.


 
My hubby is an IT Contractor, he says daily rates are down a bit, less contracts out there but the credit crunch will ultimately lead to an explosion in that sector. We lived through a similar thing in the UK a few years ago. He reckons we just need to ride it out.


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## z106

Bubbly Scot said:


> My hubby is an IT Contractor, he says daily rates are down a bit, less contracts out there but the credit crunch will ultimately lead to an explosion in that sector. We lived through a similar thing in the UK a few years ago. He reckons we just need to ride it out.


 
The credit crunch will lead to an explosion in that area?

I don't understand?
I would have thought the opposite given that businesses cannot borrow money as easily to expand.

Unless i'm missing something here?


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## shnaek

qwertyuiop said:


> The credit crunch will lead to an explosion in that area?
> 
> I don't understand?
> I would have thought the opposite given that businesses cannot borrow money as easily to expand.
> 
> Unless i'm missing something here?



IT systems replace people in a downturn. It's up to IT to make things more efficient. So in general, IT spend goes up in a downturn.

Couple that with the dramatic reduction in IT graduates we have here in Ireland since the .com collapse and you end up with more IT work, and less people to do it.


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## Caveat

I guess cutbacks in public spending could affect my work somewhat - but if we can adapt and ride that out and expand elsewhere, I don't see there being a big problem. We have survived curbs on public spending before.

In my private life I don't envisage much changing. Looking at cars at the moment, planning home improvements, holidays etc.


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## Slim

1. I'm hoping to get my house extension priced reasonably now there is a downturn. 
2. I am afraid that the tenants in my rental property will get laid off and give up the lease.
3. My employer, public sector, is cutting to the bone so although I am secure, we will be expected to cut back on expenses etc.

4. Put off changing the (2nd) car due to VRT changes and 3 above. May now drive this one into ground or until one of kids old enough to use it.

5. Most importantly, with kids approaching university and trying to get into the workforce, I worry that they will not have jobs when they qualify.

6. On the plus side: see my first point, interest rates are rising so savings are more rewarding, mortgage is low etc.


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## annR

Unless we lose our jobs which is unlikely I don't see much impact personally except for rising prices.


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## shnaek

annR said:


> Unless we lose our jobs which is unlikely I don't see much impact personally except for rising prices.



But hopefully not rising taxes.


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## jimbob1234

Slim said:


> 1. I'm hoping to get my house extension priced reasonably now there is a downturn.
> 2. I am afraid that the tenants in my rental property will get laid off and give up the lease.
> 3. My employer, public sector, is cutting to the bone so although I am secure, we will be expected to cut back on expenses etc.
> 
> 4. Put off changing the (2nd) car due to VRT changes and 3 above. May now drive this one into ground or until one of kids old enough to use it.
> 
> 5. Most importantly, with kids approaching university and trying to get into the workforce, I worry that they will not have jobs when they qualify.
> 
> 6. On the plus side: see my first point, interest rates are rising so savings are more rewarding, mortgage is low etc.


 
what do u mean when you say the public sector is cutting to the bone? no one is geting laid off


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## shnaek

jimbob1234 said:


> what do u mean when you say the public sector is cutting to the bone? no one is geting laid off



I think he means 'spending' - now that the well is dry they aren't firing around money like they have been for the last while.


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## paddi22

We do a lot of print work for the HSE and public bodies. All that has come to a sudden halt.


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## Flax

I don't think it will affect me at all. 

qwertyuiop: could you stop spelling "the" incorrectly on purpose? It makes you posts very irritating to read.


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## z106

Flax said:


> I don't think it will affect me at all.
> 
> qwertyuiop: could you stop spelling "the" incorrectly on purpose? It makes you posts very irritating to read.


 
Apologies flax - although you don't really think i am doing it on purpose do you?


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## Flax

Well you consistently only spell "the" incorrectly, so I guessed you weren't dyslexic!


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## Elphaba

run our own business, UK sales way down on last year, US sales the same, nothing like they were when a euro = 1 dollar. Home sales down for the first time in years. We made hay then while the sun was shining, things a bit bleak now, (have to do big push to get extra work) just keeping our heads above water, we'll survive.


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## z109

shnaek said:


> IT systems replace people in a downturn. It's up to IT to make things more efficient. So in general, IT spend goes up in a downturn.
> 
> Couple that with the dramatic reduction in IT graduates we have here in Ireland since the .com collapse and you end up with more IT work, and less people to do it.


Having worked in IT for a while, I'm not convinced by this. Only if there is a watertight business case will businesses look to automate. In general IT spend goes down in a recession - no upgrades of software/equipment, reduction of headcount, outsource of support functions. Or so it has been in the last few recessions.


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## gradgrind

The Irish IT sector is in the main younger than the last major recession, so we've no way of knowing how resilient it will be.

Also it seems IT salaries haven't being rising much so despite less graduates supply is apparently meeting demand.

If there's a US recession significant tech layoffs are pretty much guaranteed and I don't see much slack in the job market to absorb them. 

I'd guess many laid off tech workers would emigrate rather than struggle to find suitable work here or battle the Irish cost base to setup their own business. (Or clean the streets has has been suggested sensitively in another thread.)

If the sector that arguably started the Celtic Tiger ups and leaves things could get bleaker.


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## z106

uiop said:


> I think I'll apply for a handy public service job and become a socialist
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why is it every time I open a newspaper, potential students are being told to study IT when the salaries and competition for jobs is crap ?


I've got to disagree with that.

Maybe permanentr jobs pay badly but IT is one of the only induistries i know where by contractors are hired with such regularity.

Pretty much most IT contractors get paid very well.

Your regular pleb IT merchant will get paid 80k a year minimum

As for any lead or management roles you arte looking at 100k+.

IT, on a contract basis, offers,in my opinion, the most flexible and well paid living there is.


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## PatriciaFox

Bubbly Scot said:


> My hubby is an IT Contractor, he says daily rates are down a bit, less contracts out there but the credit crunch will ultimately lead to an explosion in that sector.



Hi BS,

Can you explain how the crunch will lead to an explosion in the sector?

I work in IT and am getting disheartened by all the jobs moving to India. This is completely separate to the Hiberian thing, but lots other companies are making low profile moves that don't hit the headlines

From what I can see their salaries are about 1/3 of ours but they're just as, if not more skilled. I think these moves are a big threat to many Irish jobs. 

Just my opinion tho...

Edit: BTW I am an IT specialist (as such), and am seeing high level IT and Tech Engineering roles moving to India, especially in the MNC arena


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## PADDYBOY99

Has anyone looked at the positives:

Rip off Ireland is now dead. 
At last real value is starting to find its way back as compition becomes prevalent. 
Far too long we as a nation were readily handing over cash for over inflated prices and services. 
It will sort the men from the mice.


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## Humdinger

PADDYBOY99 said:


> :
> 
> Rip off Ireland is now dead.
> At last real value is starting to find its way back as compition becomes prevalent.


 
The rip off culture has taken a few hits but has a long way to go before prices get back to an acceptable level, if ever in some areas. As I write Mrs Humdinger is in Belfast doing a monthly shop, getting some furniture in IKEA, clothes etc etc. This has become a monthly trip over the last year. I look forward to being able to spend my money in Southern Ireland when prices get back to an acceptable norm ... today it is still worth our while to travel north and that is not good for our economy. So we are "shopping around" in mary harney terms but not doing it right in mary couglan terms !!!

Its worth thinking whether we will ever have proper competition ... look at  where an average family spends money.
 - food - no real competition at multiple retailer level and it seems Aldi/Lidl are even priced substantially higher here
 - clothing - good levels of competition in this area ...lots of sales on at the moment as well
 - entertainment - way over the top in terms of pricing and hopefully will see some price competition going forward ... especially on kids related stuff
 - pubs/restaurants - enough said and there will be casualties in this area in the next couple of years
 - waste,  insurance ... scope for increased competition here.
 - telecomms - Eircom still own the infrastructure which limits scope for real competition
 - ESB/Gas - ouch ... protected state agencies. In 2020 it will be worse as  we have no other options as wind/wave etc can't make up the gap. Put the metro North money into a nuclear plant and get over the emotion of it.

So there are some areas where there is scope for competition though on a population base of 4.5 million, there is not always the incentive for the players to look past some pretend level of competition where its really a duopoly.

Attitude - Eddie Hobbs was lauded and lambasted in equal proportion for his Rip Off Republic programme - its worth another screening by RTE.


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## shammy feen

I am a self employed contractor in the pharma sector and may need to go abroad to get work in the near future.

Not ideal with a wife, a 14 month old and an 8 week old at home.

Needs must as they say though.


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## jimbob1234

what will you do shammy feen. would you emigrate with your family or work in london for example and come home every few weeks


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## shnaek

PatriciaFox said:


> Hi BS,
> 
> Can you explain how the crunch will lead to an explosion in the sector?
> 
> I work in IT and am getting disheartened by all the jobs moving to India. This is completely separate to the Hiberian thing, but lots other companies are making low profile moves that don't hit the headlines
> 
> From what I can see their salaries are about 1/3 of ours but they're just as, if not more skilled. I think these moves are a big threat to many Irish jobs.
> 
> Just my opinion tho...
> 
> Edit: BTW I am an IT specialist (as such), and am seeing high level IT and Tech Engineering roles moving to India, especially in the MNC arena



What sort of IT specialist are you? There appear to be plenty programming jobs around, but not as much as there were a year ago to be sure.
As for the India thing, I was made redundant a few years back when my (American owned) employer moved it's IT dept to India. But I have talked to management there since, and to management in other companies, and they say that moving work to India causes as many problems as it solves. In general this is due to communication problems, and incorrect ideas as to what was meant in the specs. This of course is just anecdotal.


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## sfl07

husband (working in construction industry) hasn't worked in 10 weeks, with nothing in the pipeline so has applied for jobs in other areas - so hopefully that'll work out. i'm in construction industry as well - scary times ahead i feel.


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## PADDYBOY99

Humdinger said:


> The rip off culture has taken a few hits but has a long way to go before prices get back to an acceptable level, if ever in some areas. As I write Mrs Humdinger is in Belfast doing a monthly shop, getting some furniture in IKEA, clothes etc etc. This has become a monthly trip over the last year. I look forward to being able to spend my money in Southern Ireland when prices get back to an acceptable norm ... today it is still worth our while to travel north and that is not good for our economy. So we are "shopping around" in mary harney terms but not doing it right in mary couglan terms !!!
> 
> Its worth thinking whether we will ever have proper competition ... look at where an average family spends money.
> - food - no real competition at multiple retailer level and it seems Aldi/Lidl are even priced substantially higher here
> - clothing - good levels of competition in this area ...lots of sales on at the moment as well
> - entertainment - way over the top in terms of pricing and hopefully will see some price competition going forward ... especially on kids related stuff
> - pubs/restaurants - enough said and there will be casualties in this area in the next couple of years
> - waste, insurance ... scope for increased competition here.
> - telecomms - Eircom still own the infrastructure which limits scope for real competition
> - ESB/Gas - ouch ... protected state agencies. In 2020 it will be worse as we have no other options as wind/wave etc can't make up the gap. Put the metro North money into a nuclear plant and get over the emotion of it.
> 
> So there are some areas where there is scope for competition though on a population base of 4.5 million, there is not always the incentive for the players to look past some pretend level of competition where its really a duopoly.
> 
> Attitude - Eddie Hobbs was lauded and lambasted in equal proportion for his Rip Off Republic programme - its worth another screening by RTE.


 


Of course we have the north south shopping issue but I think you will have to agree that anyone in the service industry is having to offer value for money. In addition More people are now going to Lidl etc and splitting their shopping too. Suggesting that people are now becoming aware of prices. 
Go back two years and the amount of people who wouldn't even return phone calls was alarming. Tradesmen charging movie star rates and people were happy to pay it. 
Anyone with a good customer base and who was aware of the term customer sadisfaction during the good times will survive this downturn.It will bring a bit of sanity back to the system.


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## gradgrind

> Why is it every time I open a newspaper, potential students are being told to study IT when the salaries and competition for jobs is crap ?


I'd prefer to see job ads than stories about the importance of IT. There's a couple reasons for these stories, one is that colleges are crying out to fill IT courses, another is that government is genuinely worried about what will happen to our economy as students continue to avoid IT courses. 

The government should have thought about that before it allowed the public sector to chase and pretty much surpass IT earnings in benchmarking 1. I know one excellent student who started a computer science course in a university but two years in got accepted for the Gardai and ran for the exit. And it was unarguably the correct decision, pay, holidays, work hours, pension, retirement age. Problem is it would only be the correct decision in Ireland.


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## room305

gradgrind said:


> The government should have thought about that before it allowed the public sector to chase and pretty much surpass IT earnings in benchmarking 1. I know one excellent student who started a computer science course in a university but two years in got accepted for the Gardai and ran for the exit. And it was unarguably the correct decision, pay, holidays, work hours, pension, retirement age. Problem is it would only be the correct decision in Ireland.


 
I'm not sure it's fair to blame the public sector specifically - although they are indeed contributors - but I agree the wages in ICT leave a lot to be desired. I hold a PhD in telecommunications and yet I still find I don't have much in the way of pricing power when it comes to the labour market. If you are willing to work as a contractor the pay is much better but there is zero job security.

The problem is that as an industry ICT is massively exposed to global competition which keeps wages down. Although in the long run this may ensure its viability as an industry in this country (I hope).


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## Howitzer

room305 said:


> The problem is that as an industry ICT is massively exposed to global competition which keeps wages down. Although in the long run this may ensure its viability as an industry in this country (I hope).


 
This is spot on.

My suspicion is that Qwertyuiop contracts into Finance or the Public Sector, neither of which are, currently, typical ICT markets. Could be very wrong though.


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## ubiquitous

Humdinger said:


> The rip off culture has taken a few hits but has a long way to go before prices get back to an acceptable level, if ever in some areas. As I write Mrs Humdinger is in Belfast doing a monthly shop, getting some furniture in IKEA, clothes etc etc. This has become a monthly trip over the last year. I look forward to being able to spend my money in Southern Ireland when prices get back to an acceptable norm ... today it is still worth our while to travel north and that is not good for our economy. So we are "shopping around" in mary harney terms but not doing it right in mary couglan terms !!!
> .



Would you be happy to see wages in the retail sector (ie the minimum wage) drop back to the same level as UK/NI?


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## shnaek

ubiquitous said:


> Would you be happy to see wages in the retail sector (ie the minimum wage) drop back to the same level as UK/NI?


They probably will do over the next few years, as inflation takes hold and wages don't increase.


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## Howitzer

ubiquitous said:


> Would you be happy to see wages in the retail sector (ie the minimum wage) drop back to the same level as UK/NI?


FYI, the biggest cost for a newish retailer is the actual property: rent + service charges. When asked recently why their prices were higher here than in mainland Europe the head of Lidl Ireland said simply - property costs.

Wages are higher here but the difference of 1 or 2 euros an hour on the minimum wage isn't the determining factor for the higher operating costs of Irish business.


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## Protocol

Good point.

UK min wage = 5.52 stg ph = 7-7.10 euro ph

Here it's 8.65 ph.

Ok, it is higher here, but I agree that it's the huge land costs and rents that contribute to higher prices here.


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## ubiquitous

Howitzer said:


> FYI, the biggest cost for a newish retailer is the actual property: rent + service charges. When asked recently why their prices were higher here than in mainland Europe the head of Lidl Ireland said simply - property costs.
> 
> Wages are higher here but the difference of 1 or 2 euros an hour on the minimum wage isn't the determining factor for the higher operating costs of Irish business.



That's a very interesting point and goes against my previous understanding that wage levels were to blame. The UK minimum wage is £5.52/€6.90 per hour. The ROI rate is €8.65 per hour - 25% higher. 

What puzzles me about blaming property costs is the example  where many prices in Tesco Enniskillen are cheaper than Tesco Cavan, even allowing for the 3.5% VAT difference. 

The Tesco Enniskillen store was only built last year at the height of the NI property boom and must have cost them a fortune. 

The Tesco Cavan store was built at least 15 years ago (maybe a good deal earlier) and has had barely more than a lick of paint, (and new Tesco signs to replace the old Quinnsworth ones) since then. 

Given that property prices and construction costs are pretty much equal on both sides of the border (both pre- and post-credit crunch) I can't see how rents could differ THAT much?


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## p45

Less visit to cinema, local shopping centre.


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## ccbkd

Interest Rates Rise By .25%


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## diarmuidc

ccbkd said:


> Interest Rates Rise By .25%


No surprise. I think it was such a sure thing that the markets had already priced it in.


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## joejoe

Its going to effect my job mainly, I works as a QS, I work for one of the big 5 contractors. It seem to me that the trades people are changing there atitudes towards work and the rates they are willing to work for, I really feel its a great thing. It will put manners and perspective in the foolish minds of many. My job is as secure as it can be, we have secured enough work for the next two years, hopfully we(ireland) will be on the way to recovery by then.

It will also mean that I should be able to afford a home in my prefered area, I would say there is another 20% to come of the house prices 

Joejoe


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## ccbkd

joejoe said:


> Its going to effect my job mainly, I works as a QS, I work for one of the big 5 contractors. It seem to me that the trades people are changing there atitudes towards work and the rates they are willing to work for, I really feel its a great thing. It will put manners and perspective in the foolish minds of many. My job is as secure as it can be, we have secured enough work for the next two years, hopfully we(ireland) will be on the way to recovery by then.
> 
> It will also mean that I should be able to afford a home in my prefered area, I would say there is another 20% to come of the house prices
> 
> Joejoe


 
Rumours abound that a certain one of these top 5 Contractors is in trouble, obviously I don't think Moderator will allow mention of which one for obvious reasons, suffice to say that the rumour mill around Dublin has been gathering pace for some time now about a certain contractor in major trouble!!!


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## NicolaM

My boyfriend works in recruitment, and he had thought that no one would get fired, as 'they're not that type of company'.
There was a meeting recently, with culling of employees.
There were also quite a few other measures taken to increase profitability, all of which have large impact on employees (I can't mention what, in case it identifies the company.)
Nicola


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## ccbkd

NicolaM said:


> My boyfriend works in recruitment, and he had thought that no one would get fired, as 'they're not that type of company'.
> There was a meeting recently, with culling of employees.
> There were also quite a few other measures taken to increase profitability, all of which have large impact on employees (I can't mention what, in case it identifies the company.)
> Nicola


 
Good Point its amazing how during the boom we preceived security due to working in what we thought was a vey secure company and having X years experience or a certain professional status, I was a professional with a large Contractor whom I thought was immune to the downturn I was let go earlier in year! , I know of a number of friends in Architectural firms who have told me about big culls recently with 10-20 members of staff being let go, A friend of mine after many years chopping and changing careers is ready to start his apprenticeship as a solicitor -guess what he can't get a job for love or money -Tough times!


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## monkeyboy

I tried to stay ahead of the recession. 1 year ago i put my cv out and for the 1st time ever in my career I did not have an interview within a week. i had always had no trouble, in const since 1999. At this point I decided to emigrate before the choice may not have been mine.

i have not looked back and am in a healthy market here in Qld Aus wher my job options on arrival were just like 1999. Im living a better life than ever at home and am much happier.

There is a recession over the horizon here but at least I am not in the middle of One and Qld has much further to go and massive "lifestyle" immigration than Dublin had. Hey everything is cheaper her too and current wages same as home. 
Plus its 23 deg by day in the "dead" of Winter .


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## Sunny

monkeyboy said:


> Hey everything is cheaper her too and current wages same as home.
> Plus its 23 deg by day in the "dead" of Winter .


 
Thanks for adding to the wave of depression over here. 

A few of friends have done the same as you over the last few months and they have no regrets either apart from the obvious distance from family and friends. Think stories like this are going to become more and more common.


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## ubiquitous

monkeyboy said:


> i have not looked back and am in a health mket here in Qld Aus wher my job options on arrival were just like 1999. Im living a better life than ever at home and am much happier.
> .



Where or what is Qld Aus?

The posting guidelines forbid the use of text speak. Please don't use it.


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## Satanta

ubiquitous said:


> Where or what is Qld Aus?


I assume "Queensland Australia", but open to correction.


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## ubiquitous

uiop said:


> Whats the difference between using acronyms like 'op' and using 'Qld Aus'
> 
> To me its obvious what both mean. The former is used all the time on this forum.



The difference between internet abbreviation protocols and text speak has been discussed several times on these pages previously. The posting guidelines do not forbid the former but they forbid the latter. Take it up with the mods on the Suggestions about AAM forum if you wish.


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## becky

ccbkd said:


> Rumours abound that a certain one of these top 5 Contractors is in trouble, obviously I don't think Moderator will allow mention of which one for obvious reasons, suffice to say that the rumour mill around Dublin has been gathering pace for some time now about a certain contractor in major trouble!!!


 

Similar rumour going about in Limerick and Galway.


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## snowdrop

Re: how will the recession affect you personally ?

partner and I self employed in own professional business services with 3 staff. started over 15 yrs ago when things were worse so hoping that we'll survive this. this time however, we have more borrowings to service (premises and residential mortgages). Phones and enquiries are distinctly quieter, some projects being postponed, customers v price conscious and money V. difficult to collect.  From what I'm aware, we would be typical of the main type of private sme employer in Ireland %wise. If things really go south, we'll have to cut jobs. Right now, personally and professionally being very careful of expenditure and trying to maximise margin everywhere. i'm seriously thinking of not listening to morning ireland anymore as it's not putting me in a positive mood for the day!


----------



## z106

Satanta said:


> I assume "Queensland Australia", but open to correction.


 
I would have assumed that queensland australia was glaringly obvious


----------



## ccbkd

ubiquitous said:


> The difference between internet abbreviation protocols and text speak has been discussed several times on these pages previously. The posting guidelines do not forbid the former but they forbid the latter. Take it up with the mods on the Suggestions about AAM forum if you wish.


 
How Pedantic!


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## z106

ccbkd said:


> How Pedantic!


 
It's a bit on the pedantic side alright


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## monkeyboy

ubiquitous said:


> Where or what is Qld Aus?
> 
> The posting guidelines forbid the use of text speak. Please don't use it.



Hey it is not my problem if your geographical education ceases at USA, EU, IRL, ESP,  and does not extend to the 2nd largest Australian state of Queensland. Its not text speak, but a very normal acronym.

How about FR ? I bet you even know UAE, RSA and the former CCCP - prob from James Bond, or 007 ;-) 

To confirm Aus = Australia as in Irl = Ireland.


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## Persius

ubiquitous said:


> That's a very interesting point and goes against my previous understanding that wage levels were to blame. The UK minimum wage is £5.52/€6.90 per hour. The ROI rate is €8.65 per hour - 25% higher.
> 
> What puzzles me about blaming property costs is the example where many prices in Tesco Enniskillen are cheaper than Tesco Cavan, even allowing for the 3.5% VAT difference.
> 
> The Tesco Enniskillen store was only built last year at the height of the NI property boom and must have cost them a fortune.
> 
> The Tesco Cavan store was built at least 15 years ago (maybe a good deal earlier) and has had barely more than a lick of paint, (and new Tesco signs to replace the old Quinnsworth ones) since then.
> 
> Given that property prices and construction costs are pretty much equal on both sides of the border (both pre- and post-credit crunch) I can't see how rents could differ THAT much?


 
Perhaps because they average property costs throughout an entire jurisdiction and a certain time frame. After all their prices are the same across an entire jurisdiction as far as I know.

To turn around your example, property costs are much higher in Dundrum than Cavan, yet the prices in both Tesco stores are identical. As far as I know, there is no separate "Tesco NI" business, it's part of Tesco UK. So
property prices in NI over the last two or three years probably make up a tiny cost of their average property costs in the UK over the last 5 years. And in general I think property costs on average in ROI are more expensive than average property costs in UK.

As to the original question, I work for an american multinational, so no saying how secure my job is.


----------



## MrKeane

ubiquitous said:


> That's a very interesting point and goes against my previous understanding that wage levels were to blame. The UK minimum wage is £5.52/€6.90 per hour. The ROI rate is €8.65 per hour - 25% higher.
> 
> What puzzles me about blaming property costs is the example where many prices in Tesco Enniskillen are cheaper than Tesco Cavan, even allowing for the 3.5% VAT difference.
> 
> The Tesco Enniskillen store was only built last year at the height of the NI property boom and must have cost them a fortune.
> 
> The Tesco Cavan store was built at least 15 years ago (maybe a good deal earlier) and has had barely more than a lick of paint, (and new Tesco signs to replace the old Quinnsworth ones) since then.
> 
> Given that property prices and construction costs are pretty much equal on both sides of the border (both pre- and post-credit crunch) I can't see how rents could differ THAT much?


 
I would imagine that the prices are the same in all UK Tesco stores, so even if they paid through the nose for a property in Enniskillen it is distributed across the entire sterling cost base.

Same in the south, a tin of beans or loaf of bread is the same in all stores I assume.


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## Ciaran

Am fairly text-illiterate, and my geographical abilities are fairly hazy as well - even still, I had no problem figuring out that abbreviation!


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## ccbkd

Quit your gibber-jabber over abbreviation and back to topic! I think it would be fair to conclude the whole economy is in recession but to analyse it a little further it would be true to say the Construction industry is in a little deeper and could be in a depression!


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## Slim

jimbob1234 said:


> what do u mean when you say the public sector is cutting to the bone? no one is geting laid off


 
As I said: expenses etc which one relies on to help change car etc. No expenses = no need for up to date car = on the bright side - not ruining car with work related mileage no matter how well paid it seems!


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## BoscoTalking

I think it will effect me in so far as I will now make it my business to know the price of things like a coffee out, or groceries which i would have just glossed over in the past. It seems that now that things are gone back to belt-tightening i am back looking at this website - which i was when i was saving for a house deposit and wedding etc., when i got a bit more flush i decided that i did not want to be preoccupied with money issues  
Working in a multinational now so nothing is certain but at least i have a job I like for the present anyway. DH is working in SME Irish owned so I now appreciate the benefits that i would have taken for granted!


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## mf1

Well, with the decline in conveyancing, my turnover/cashflow/income  has simply gone through the floor so I will certainly be keeping a close eye on any spending. While as a family we were never spendthrifts, we were equally never short of anything and I don't see that changing. 

I do have great sympathy for people who now ( unlike those of us lucky enough to have been born in the 60'3 and 70's and who by virtue almost exclusively of age group bought property at exceptionally reasonable prices) have mortgages where wage increases are unlikely to keep pace with mortgage repayments. 

Equally, for some of my clients who are separating or divorcing and who are trying desperately  to sell the family home at the kind of price that will enable them to move on, the downturn is horrendous. Not to mention the inability to discharge my fees from the proceeds of sale...........

mf


----------



## BoscoTalking

mf1 said:


> Well, with the decline in conveyancing, my turnover/cashflow/income  has simply gone through the floor so I will certainly be keeping a close eye on any spending. While as a family we were never spendthrifts, we were equally never short of anything and I don't see that changing.
> I do have great sympathy for people who now ( unlike those of us lucky enough to have been born in the 60'3 and 70's and who by virtue almost exclusively of age group bought property at exceptionally reasonable prices) have mortgages where wage increases are unlikely to keep pace with mortgage repayments.
> Equally, for some of my clients who are separating or divorcing and who are trying desperately  to sell the family home at the kind of price that will enable them to move on, the downturn is horrendous. Not to mention the inability to discharge my fees from the proceeds of sale...........
> mf


For some reason, i feel its rare to read that sentiment on this board. 
I am surrounded by 3 siblings who emigrated in the 80's and came back late 90's while I availed of the free third level education and now am now experiencing the choppy waters as they are comfortable. Because of this i was never allowed to loose the run of myself regarding the boom times like some of my friends so i just reckon this too will turn full circle.


----------



## joejoe

ccbkd said:


> Rumours abound that a certain one of these top 5 Contractors is in trouble, obviously I don't think Moderator will allow mention of which one for obvious reasons, suffice to say that the rumour mill around Dublin has been gathering pace for some time now about a certain contractor in major trouble!!!


 
Today, I spoke to with a director of the company I work for, he explained to me that a number of the top 10 contractors where heavley exposed to the property market due to their own private developments. We were not, so I was reasurring.

Joejoe


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## ccbkd

Very good JoeJoe, it appears you chose wisely when you joint this contracting company, my only fear is with the Government about to slash public spending, alot of the public projects such as schools and threatres will perhaps take a backseat till at least 2010, with roads and infrastructure being preferred, I cannot see a proliferation of commercial projects either -Hotels and Offices are most surely going to take a backseat, judging by your confidence I assume your employer is one of the big civil companies, if so happy days


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## joejoe

ccbkd said:


> Very good JoeJoe, it appears you chose wisely when you joint this contracting company, my only fear is with the Government about to slash public spending, alot of the public projects such as schools and threatres will perhaps take a backseat till at least 2010, with roads and infrastructure being preferred, I cannot see a proliferation of commercial projects either -Hotels and Offices are most surely going to take a backseat, judging by your confidence I assume your employer is one of the big civil companies, if so happy days


 
Both, they have a secured enough work for the current staff for the next two years. So fingers crossed my job is good for at least the next two years.

Joejoe


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## MandaC

Well,  I've lost my job and its a lot more difficult to find one than this time last year.

We are being made redundant because the company is relocating as a result of our employer eventually retiring(great timing, boss), so that is not directly as a result of the recession, as we have enough work to keep us going for years.

Where recession has hit me, is in finding a new job, I am finding salaries have dropped and it is an employers market, no doubt. 
Am lucky in that I have found something, however, my commute will be considerably longer (cant have it all) but I am nervous in that it's all change and I hope I can settle into it.

Not a great position to be in considering I have a mortgage on my own which I just took out last year. Earlier on in the year, I changed my car to a smaller but newer car which has reduced my petrol/insurance and road tax.  

Am also going to have to look at my spending habits (particularly on food) and I have started going to Lidl and Aldi for certain foods, also bringing lunch to work instead of buying every day.

On the bright side, I am getting prices to get work done to the house (this time last year people did not even turn up)


----------



## QED

> we have enough work to keep us going for years


 
Is it an option for you to set up company to do the work of your retiring employer? There would seem to be an opportunity there.


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## MandaC

He is selling the business to someone who already has people but not enough work.  New location did not suit me at all and I would be the only one moving over with him, so decided not to go. 

its only out there looking for a job that you see how bad things have got.  One of our Secretaries was made redundant last week and despite knowing she was going for months and actively looking, she has not been able to get one interview.


----------



## kramer2006

monkeyboy said:


> I tried to stay ahead of the recession. 1 year ago i put my cv out and for the 1st time ever in my career I did not have an interview within a week. i had always had no trouble, in const since 1999. At this point I decided to emigrate before the choice may not have been mine.
> 
> i have not looked back and am in a healthy market here in Qld Aus wher my job options on arrival were just like 1999. Im living a better life than ever at home and am much happier.
> 
> There is a recession over the horizon here but at least I am not in the middle of One and Qld has much further to go and massive "lifestyle" immigration than Dublin had. Hey everything is cheaper her too and current wages same as home.
> Plus its 23 deg by day in the "dead" of Winter .



Monkeyboy, I've been in Australia during a recession (2001/2002) and believe me, a recession is the same wherever in the world you are. The weather is not much good to you when you can't pay your rent. So don't pat yourself too hard on the back.

Never ceases to amaze me - the smug attitude of the recently-departed emigrant.


----------



## z106

kramer2006 said:


> The weather is not much good to you when you can't pay your rent.


 
Well i'd prefer to homeless in a good climate rather than a bad climate.


----------



## kramer2006

qwertyuiop said:


> Well i'd prefer to homeless in a good climate rather than a bad climate.



Yes, good point.


----------



## murphaph

It's a double (or triple) edged sword for me: the landlord side fears empty units but needs work done and expects to get it at a lower price, the employee side is secure as business is booming for my employer. Turnover up 10% or more. We are doing better in this downturn than before it!


----------



## DavyJones

kramer2006 said:


> Monkeyboy, I've been in Australia during a recession (2001/2002) and believe me, a recession is the same wherever in the world you are. The weather is not much good to you when you can't pay your rent. So don't pat yourself too hard on the back.
> 
> Never ceases to amaze me - the smug attitude of the recently-departed emigrant.



I too was there in 2001/2002. Heard people talk about the R word but didn't affect me at all. A dollar goes a long way in Oz. Was working in construction and was on great money, never had trouble getting work. I was based in Melbourne. Maybe it was different in other parts of the country.


----------



## joejoe

qwertyuiop said:


> Well i'd prefer to homeless in a good climate rather than a bad climate.


 
Less chance of getting rained on 

Joejoe


----------



## The_Banker

How will the recession affect me?

More arguments with Missus Banker. I have to tell her she can't borrow big money for a new car. That we can only have one holiday this year and turning on the emersion for a bath each day is a bad idea.

I personally lived through the 80s where I once faced a 3 man panel for a counter job in McDonalds (I didn't get the job) so I have no issues with taking the notches of my belt in a position or two. But when it comes to telling others they must do it also and cut up credit cards, that is when this recession affects me.


----------



## murphaph

mercman said:


> Well there is little point in us Irish blaming ourselves and our own Government.


We bear at least some personal responsibility for our predicament. Our government can also reasonably be held to account for many and various failures during their time in office-a complete over-reliance on the property sector is now (was always) apparent. We have not been watching the pennies either individually or as a nation and if we had, we'd at least be better placed to deal with a global downturn.


----------



## rmelly

leesider29 said:


> I think all reports should be stopped for 2 months.....nothing good nothing bad nada and see where consumer confidence goes after that! It seems in this commuication, consumer age we live in we can talk ourselves into anything!!!


 
Mabye you should start a crusade to talk us into another boom?


----------



## kudos

I don't think it is really going to affect me hugely  -(except for petrol prices, mortgage going up and the costof food going up)  but I am aware it is affecting others more severely and in turn I am trying to keep my spending in check - watching the cost of groceries  - not being wasteful with food - i.e putting stuff in freezer and not leaving it in the fridge to get past bb date. Not blowing money on clothes for the sake of it etc.  I think even for the people that it is not affecting directly it is a chance to pull in the reins a bit and take stock of your lifestyle.


----------



## annR

I think the charity shops are going to have a boom period  - it's becoming quite the thing to go bargain hunting.  Likewise, those sites like dublinwaste.ie are going to have more visitors - it'll all link in with green themes like re use and recycling too, hopefully as a nation we'll hit on some green and cheap ways of doing things.


----------



## murphaph

annR said:


> I think the charity shops are going to have a boom period  - it's becoming quite the thing to go bargain hunting.  Likewise, those sites like dublinwaste.ie are going to have more visitors - it'll all link in with green themes like re use and recycling too, hopefully as a nation we'll hit on some green and cheap ways of doing things.


Indeed, we could start walking the kids to school again for a start!


----------



## monkeyboy

kramer2006 said:


> Monkeyboy, I've been in Australia during a recession (2001/2002) and believe me, a recession is the same wherever in the world you are. The weather is not much good to you when you can't pay your rent. So don't pat yourself too hard on the back.
> 
> Never ceases to amaze me - the smug attitude of the recently-departed emigrant.



I dont quite follow your point: My alleged smugness pails to your apparent bitterness!

My point is that there is NOT a recession here at the moment, quite a way from it actually, with obvious skill shortages across the board. I had 3 interviews lined up after an hour of sending out my CV. ( seriously no exageration !! ) 
My GF has taken longer ( 3 weeks! ) to get her 2nd job after a 3 month contract ended but the pay is the same as at home and 9% employer pension paid on top - Not the same at home ! ( all jobs this applies to )

Im all to aware of what can happen up ahead from touching base at home and watching closely our economy for the last 4 odd years. For that reason and lessons learned, Im putting a lot more away than I ever did. ( some thing I could not be doing at home right now and not at no strings rates of 8.5%) , this fact is made easier by lower relative costs, comparable and more wages and belive it or not the weather does have a huge difference...

Eg. Day out with friends on the beach, surfing, sunning, footy and BBQ, socialising with BBQs in the park, bring your own (alcohol) restaraunts are the norm,  good weather encourages so much more outdoor actiivity also - which is free !
No need for a "foriegn" holiday also. Just a 1 hr "Ryanair" style flight or a few hours drive up the coast, even does it in the winter.

So how will the recession affect me personally, it ill force me to adapt, which I have achieved. 
Better to be facing the prospect of a recession here in a year or 2, than at home NOW.

Its an employees market and anyone around 20-30 with a good profession really should look into it here.
I make my points not out of any smugness but because I only came over, as a mate went over ahead and fed back the same info. If I did not hear it 1st hand I may be at home still.


----------



## SillyBilly

Well, I finish my PhD in a totally irrelevant humanities area next year and I'm a bit worried.  In the old jobs climate I might have been able to sidestep into something completely unrelated (My sister kept shouting business at me....)  However, with fewer jobs and more competition for them this is looking less likely and my very interesting and enjoyable PhD will probably be useless to me.

On the other hand, my boyfriend recently returned to college, partly motivated by the knowledge that when the impending recession came he would be screwed as he had no qualifications.  So, in a way it's a positive thing for him because it forced him to reevaluate his situation and improve his circumstances.


----------



## shammy feen

jimbob1234 said:


> what will you do shammy feen. would you emigrate with your family or work in london for example and come home every few weeks


 
Very possible Jim Bob.
There is plenty of work in my game on the continent at the moment, especially in Scandanavia.It doesnt make sense uprooting my young family though when my wife needs her family for support. I couldnt imagine her sitting on her own in the perpetual twilight of Arctic Norway with two snappers when she could be at home in Cork.


----------



## terrestrial

If I could exactly predict how this is going to go, then it wouldn't effect me at all! 

Just the current market conditions makes life slightly difficult to me on a few points.

* With the current house prices and dull market, I have already or quickly losing my option to move closer to my aging parents. The same could also deny me from taking advantage of better economic conditions in some other part of the world.

* Prices of food, fuel etc going up, combined with the poor quality of health service (that I recently witnessed for first time), I am dreading the thought of growing old in this country.

* Third is the job security. Things should be okay as long as I am employed as I am now. If this changes, everything will go wrong with in two months! Freighting thought!


----------



## deedee80

To be honest the recession has affected me personally in a good way.  More than every I feel happy with my lot, and for a while there I was starting to forget just how lucky I was.  I have a house that I love and can afford and due to the recession I no longer feel the pressure to have a bigger more expensive house, I now think gosh wasn't I lucky that I bought a house that I can afford and thankfully the unexpected large hike in my mortgage repayments won't affect me too much.  I will be hanging on to the old car for a while longer, I have no loan on it, its very reliable and I now no longer feel the need to buy something newer and trendier just for the sake of it or because all my friends are getting nice shiny new cars.  I know it sounds very shallow but I would listen to this and that and suchabody got a new car or have friends saying how long can you see yourself in this house before you upgrade (I'm only in it a year!) and its amazing how they have all changed their tune now, while I am sitting pretty and delighted with myself for being so sensible!  I don't complain about my job as there really is very little I should be complaining about, and I am in the lucky position of having a job.  I am also avoiding superquinn (dread to think how much I spent there while just popping out for milk!) and am doing the bulk of my shopping in Aldi and Lidl.  The other half actually gets excited when he sees how many items we can buy for 20 euros!  Its the simple things in life that make us happy now ​


----------



## ninsaga

Good onya deedee!


----------



## starlite68

deedee80 said:


> To be honest the recession has affected me personally in a good way. More than every I feel happy with my lot, and for a while there I was starting to forget just how lucky I was. I have a house that I love and can afford and due to the recession I no longer feel the pressure to have a bigger more expensive house, I now think gosh wasn't I lucky that I bought a house that I can afford and thankfully the unexpected large hike in my mortgage repayments won't affect me too much. I will be hanging on to the old car for a while longer, I have no loan on it, its very reliable and I now no longer feel the need to buy something newer and trendier just for the sake of it or because all my friends are getting nice shiny new cars. I know it sounds very shallow but I would listen to this and that and suchabody got a new car or have friends saying how long can you see yourself in this house before you upgrade (I'm only in it a year!) and its amazing how they have all changed their tune now, while I am sitting pretty and delighted with myself for being so sensible! I don't complain about my job as there really is very little I should be complaining about, and I am in the lucky position of having a job. I am also avoiding superquinn (dread to think how much I spent there while just popping out for milk!) and am doing the bulk of my shopping in Aldi and Lidl. The other half actually gets excited when he sees how many items we can buy for 20 euros! Its the simple things in life that make us happy now ​


 great post.


----------



## theoneill

I agree, hopefully this recession will teach us some cop-on and humility


----------



## j26

starlite68 said:


> great post.



Agreed - it's injecting some realism.

Me, the recession will have little enough impact - my old equity SSIA has lost a bit of its value, but that's not a problem.  I can't sell the apartment, which I wanted to do, but no harm really - the rent means it covers itself.  My income is stable, as are my outgoings.  And at the end of it all, I'll have the opportunity to take advantage of the recovery when it comes.

I'll just batten down the hatches and ride it out.


----------



## Newbie!

deedee80 said:


> To be honest the recession has affected me personally in a good way.  More than every I feel happy with my lot, and for a while there I was starting to forget just how lucky I was.
> ​



I have said once before on this forum that sometimes it is easy see other posters earnings and general wealth and feel like you arent doing as well you would like. I would totally agree with Deedee though, in that, I am happy with my lot. My friend recently lost her job and with a mortgage similar to my own, I can feel her desperation when now faced with a very difficult situation. 

To be loved and be surrounded by people you love, to have a bed to call your home and have your health is more than alot of other people will ever have............getting a bit maudlin' now...time to sign off!


----------



## joejoe

My carbon foot print will decline greatly 

Joejoe


----------



## Sailor

Does that mean you will be wearing smaller shoes, and walking more!!


----------



## ccbkd

1000's of Construction works to be let go on eve of Builders Holidays - I know of one company letting 100 go - a medium sized contractor


----------



## DavyJones

Reading some of these posts, you could forgive someone for thinking we have been throw back into the dark ages.


----------



## ccbkd

DavyJones said:


> Reading some of these posts, you could forgive someone for thinking we have been throw back into the dark ages.


 
I am much more sanguine about it and see it simply as an awakening of sorts!


----------



## joejoe

Sailor said:


> Does that mean you will be wearing smaller shoes, and walking more!!


 
No just cheaper shoes.

Joejoe


----------



## joejoe

DavyJones said:


> Reading some of these posts, you could forgive someone for thinking we have been throw back into the dark ages.


 
Most posts are saying that the reccession will bring back the normality and realism that is required for a more content existance. The dark ages are gone for good.

Joejoe


----------



## DavyJones

recession or no recession if someone is reckless with money, not much will change.


----------



## starlite68

i hope this recession is going to be like the one back in the eighties......but i have a feeling it wont be!


----------



## starlite68

uiop said:


> Well we wont feel too bad until our possessions e.g flat screen Tvs get old and break down and need to be replaced. Until then we can feel smug in our overpriced houses and pretend we are wealthy just like before ;-)


amen to that.


----------



## room305

SillyBilly said:


> Well, I finish my PhD in a totally irrelevant humanities area next year and I'm a bit worried. In the old jobs climate I might have been able to sidestep into something completely unrelated (My sister kept shouting business at me....) However, with fewer jobs and more competition for them this is looking less likely and my very interesting and enjoyable PhD will probably be useless to me.


 
Well not totally useless, as it is a grueling process that imparts many valuable skills. That said, don't expect to be spectacularly rewarded at the pay table for having one!

Surely a position in academia remains a possibility?


----------



## Joshnot

starlite68 said:


> i hope this recession is going to be like the one back in the eighties......but i have a feeling it wont be!


 
I hope it isn't as while we can manage comfortably now with me just having given up work to be at home with the kids, if the mortage interest rates hit double figures life will become very difficult!


----------



## mercman

starlite68 said:


> i hope this recession is going to be like the one back in the eighties......but i have a feeling it wont be!



This must be one of the most stupid comments I have read on AAM. Can you not remember the circumstances of the 80s, when there were queues at the Airports and Ferries with young people having to emigrate simply to find work. The thousands of un-accounted Irish in America remain as a direct consequence of the 80s, where now they are unable to travel home even to bury their loved ones. Generally the average person was living hand to mouth, with no hope of bettering themselves. I had thought the Irish had overcome this but with selfish attitudes like this of Starlite we have got nowhere but dug an even bigger hole for ourselves. Bully for you - I hope for your own sake you are never in want.


----------



## starlite68

i managed to survive through the recession of the 80s as did many of my friends...things were tight but people looked out for each other more that they do now...probably to do with the faster pace of life these days.
seem to remember the pubs being a lot more packed in the 80s too.


----------



## mercman

This is going off topic, but surely you remember how difficult things actually where. It is a much faster pace here now but we have moved on with still a hell of a way to go. Yep we all remember the oubs been packed and we would all drink a heap of beer and drive home. There were few Taxis in Dublin and we all acted irresponsible. I would like to think that Ireland has moved on to be a modern progressive Country with a huge amount of talent. Hopefully this is a slight blip and overall we all are better off if only we can shake off the Inferiority Complex and Begrudgery still pandemic in our society. Only if we could !!!!!


----------



## starlite68

mercman said:


> I would like to think that Ireland has moved on to be a modern progressive Country with a huge amount of talent.


 the only thing we have moved towards in the last twenty years is becoming more greedy and thats what has got into most of this recession,at least back in the 80s we enjoyed a few beers and the crack.
easy access to money always ends up in a recession...just a matter of time.  rough times ahead!


----------



## joejoe

starlite68 said:


> the only thing we have moved towards in the last twenty years is becoming more greedy and thats what has got into most of this recession,at least back in the 80s we enjoyed a few beers and the crack.
> easy access to money always ends up in a recession...just a matter of time. rough times ahead!


 
Starlite, your a bit of an old romantic, as alot of the older generation are, at least the ones that own there home or have a small mortgage and work in the public sector.

Joejoe


----------



## starlite68

dont fall into any of the above three joejoe...well maybe the older part, not to old though!!!!!
as for working in the public sector......if only.


----------



## Bronte

uiop said:


> Well we won't feel too bad until our possessions e.g flat screen Tvs get old and break down and need to be replaced. Until then we can feel smug in our overpriced houses and pretend we are wealthy just like before ;-)


 

There was a TV for 89 Euros in Dunnes last xmas and it included a DVD player.  Mind you it was a small TV but a TV & DVD nevertheless.


----------



## SillyBilly

room305 said:


> Well not totally useless, as it is a grueling process that imparts many valuable skills. That said, don't expect to be spectacularly rewarded at the pay table for having one!
> 
> Surely a position in academia remains a possibility?


 

Would *love *a job in academia but they're hard to come by.  Thanks for the reminder about all that stuff to put in my cv though; self-discipline, analytical skills, excellent net surfing skills etc


----------



## joejoe

starlite68 said:


> dont fall into any of the above three joejoe...well maybe the older part, not to old though!!!!!
> as for working in the public sector......if only.


 
You brought a smile to my face, only because I was expecting a different return. "Happy Reccession" 

Joejoe


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## joejoe

I hope my life is not effected like this!

Joejoe


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## leesider29

It has made me look for a new job, wasn't let go but sales were not happening. Got a new job offer last week, higher pay, way better sales potential and I get to stay in the industry I am in! Happy out now!


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## rabbit

starlite68 said:


> i managed to survive through the recession of the 80s as did many of my friends...things were tight but people looked out for each other more that they do now...probably to do with the faster pace of life these days.
> seem to remember the pubs being a lot more packed in the 80s too.


 
I agree, at least in the 80's we did not have huge loans to worry about.

oh to be back in the eighties ( I am serious ).  Things are worse now.


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## MrMan

starlite68 said:


> the only thing we have moved towards in the last twenty years is becoming more greedy and thats what has got into most of this recession,at least back in the 80s we enjoyed a few beers and the crack.
> easy access to money always ends up in a recession...just a matter of time.  rough times ahead!



If you only rate progression on how much value people put into having wealth then we are a greedy lot, but we want more and more because we have shown in the last 15 years what we are capable of in a variety of areas. We have been greedy because we could be, in the eighties we took what we could get which wasn't a lot. Luckily we are not headed back to the dark ages.


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## dockingtrade

MrMan said:


> Luckily we are not headed back to the dark ages.


 

You mean the 80s?   I think it'll be worse. I think there is nothing to attract foreign investment here, no construction industry, shrinking manufscturing uncertain agri business. The muti-nationals are barely hanging in and once a big one goes we're in serious trouble. The biggest difference between the 80s and now is personal debt,  so imagine an unemployment rate somewhere what is in the 80s but with unemployed people with masive personal debt and i dont mean mortgages. Thats the banks fecked and thats us all fecked....I was one of the critics of future shock etc but my God I was wrong


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## GeneralZod

dockingtrade said:


> You mean the 80s?   I think it'll be worse.



You're over doing the pessimism there. It was really bad in the 80s. We're no where near there. Business services are still doing ok. We still have a lot going for us. We're in a necessary correction that will leave us in a better position to compete in the globalised economy.


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## z109

GeneralZod said:


> You're over doing the pessimism there. It was really bad in the 80s. We're no where near there. Business services are still doing ok. We still have a lot going for us. We're in a necessary correction that will leave us in a better position to compete in the globalised economy.


I sort of agree. I think it will be worse than the eighties if you lose your job, for all the (quite rightly) gloomy reasons given above. If you stay working and ahead of your debts, life will go on much as it has.


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## MrMan

I can't understand all of the thinking of we're doomed. Worst case scenario for me would be lose my job in which case I would take up any other (number of) jobs to make sure that debts were paid etc. We are a lot more adaptable than we give ourselves credit for, I think the big change that people will struggle with is social status, things like coming down from new bmws etc to 'ordinary' cars, not wearing deseigner gear, basically materialistic things that don't matter.


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## shnaek

I heard one investor whos name escapes me saying that this worldwide recession will put the focus (and value) back on quality. That can't be a bad thing.


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## MrMan

shnaek said:


> I heard one investor whos name escapes me saying that this worldwide recession will put the focus (and value) back on quality. That can't be a bad thing.



I think it already has, people are less likely to look past substandard work and excuse it which can only be a good thing. Sometimes I'll go back to a vendor and say they were willing to pay €x but want to knock €10k off because leak needs to be fixed, tiles are loose etc and the vendor will say 'its a second hand home what do they expect' well now they expect the price to reflect the condition as well as the location.


Regards new developments I think if the work is bad people aren't looking for money off they are just looking elsewhere altogether.


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## gradgrind

> I heard one investor whos name escapes me saying that this worldwide recession will put the focus (and value) back on quality


That investor was probably talking about himself being able to pick up good stocks cheaply, which is going to be a limited comfort for anybody laid off.


> I would take up any other (number of) jobs


In a recession like back in the '80s there will definitely not be any number of jobs for somebody to take up. I clearly remember literal queues around the block for McDonalds jobs. Sometimes an economy just cannot provide jobs for everybody who wants one. 

Right now the exodus of male Eastern European construction workers has had a side effect of taking many of their female partners out of retail jobs. This has created an impression that retail and services have an endless ability to absorb workers, but in reality they are now employing less as well.


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## MrMan

But we are hardly back in the 80's even by the gloomiest of outlooks.


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## annR

A lot of people here have made enough money and savings to ride out a recession, God knows anyone in construction has had that opportunity surely.

I don't think the overall unemployment will be as bad as the 80s unless multinationals pull out (and they might).  What does worry me is the global situation together with our domestic situation.  At least in the 80s there were jobs elsewhere to emigrate too - that mightn't be the case now.  Fuel and food prices are a global issue now, everywhere is struggling with that.  I wonder what gas/electricity charges were back in the 80s and how much a part of household budget they were.  We've got more household charges now like sky, bins, management fees etc that I don't think people had back then.  Food is rocketing.  Water charges may come in.  I think life for low-mid skilled workers/earners may turn out to be every bit as tough as back in the 80s except there will be nowhere else to go.


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## starlite68

MrMan said:


> I can't understand all of the thinking of we're doomed. Worst case scenario for me would be lose my job in which case I would take up any other (number of) jobs to make sure that debts were paid etc. .


 i think with ten thousand plus signing on the dole every month, you will be very lucky to take up any number of jobs! or even one.


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## MrMan

The job section is still pretty full, but I hope not to find out in any case


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## tara83

The employment may not be as good as the boom years but it is nothing like the eighties.  I know of one retail company who have trouble recruiting staff at the moment - the quality of the candidates is poor.  The same job in the same company in the eighties attracted 800 applications.

Things are brilliant but it's not total doom and gloom.  The Irish are a nation which is more comfortable when things are bad - it's in our nature


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## starlite68

tara83 said:


> Things are brilliant but it's not total doom and gloom.


 ??????


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## rory22

Let's not worry about the big 'R' word for now, it's a summer bank-holiday weekend, the sun might shine! And you can't spell a recession without a 'cession'.


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## DeeFox

A colleague of mine told me that her 19 year old nephew could not find a summer job (Cork city area) and he was willing to do anything (barwork, restaurant, shop) - I was surprised at this as I thought there was always plenty of these jobs to go around.
Also, I read an article in Examiner the other day written by a student on a J1 for the Summer in south Carolina and the main thrust of it was that there were almost no jobs available and that a number of the students were turning around early and coming home.  I remember my own days spent on the J1 (nineties) and we had a huge choice of jobs - you could literally walk out of a job and have another one within a hour if you so wished.  Times have certainly changed...


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## truthseeker

DeeFox said:


> Also, I read an article in Examiner the other day written by a student on a J1 for the Summer in south Carolina and the main thrust of it was that there were almost no jobs available and that a number of the students were turning around early and coming home. I remember my own days spent on the J1 (nineties) and we had a huge choice of jobs - you could literally walk out of a job and have another one within a hour if you so wished. Times have certainly changed...


 
Both true and not true - on my own J1 in the 90s I could have walked out of 1 job and into another in the big city i started in, but then I moved to a small seaside town and within a couple of weeks all jobs had been filled by us J1-ers so if you left one there wasnt another easily available - the same thing was experienced by a number of students, but a move to the next big city always resulted in work.


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## z109

MrMan said:


> But we are hardly back in the 80's even by the gloomiest of outlooks.


No, we are in the seventies looking forward to the eighties.

Really, do you think people shouldn't prepare for a bad outcome? Do you think they shouldn't put that little bit extra aside just in case?


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## DavyJones

annR said:


> A lot of people here have made enough money and savings to ride out a recession, God knows anyone in construction has had that opportunity surely.



Most guys working in construction have earned, on par or slightly better than the industrial wage. There was money made in the boom, but by developers and land owners .


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## starlite68

in the recession of the 80s we had huge national debt, in the recession we are facing into now we have riseing national debt, coupled with massive personal debt that we did ot have in the 80s...work it out!


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## eileen alana

DavyJones said:


> Most guys working in construction have earned, on par or slightly better than the industrial wage. There was money made in the boom, but by developers and land owners .


 
This issue was already discussed in full in another thread. For the first time in yonks, I noticed a large queue of mostly males outside my local Social Welfare Office the other day, it sure brought back memories of the 80's to me also I am aware of construction workers who recently went to London and they having to return after been unable to source employment there. At least back then there was an alternative, emigrants were more or less guaranteed work in the USA or London. It is going to be far more difficult for the unemployed especially the unskilled to find work abroad in this recession.


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## mercman

One must remember this recession in the main is caused by mistakes by Banks worldwide, that made careless lending look very simple. And now we all are been asked to pay for their mistakes. It really is as simple as that. No point in blaming Government. How many times did the Irish Central Bank issue warnings and the Banks ignored these warnings. This is going to be a tough winter.


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## mainasia

Mercman, you are some revisionist. This boom of the last 5 years was brought on by Irish speculation, Irish householders, small landlords, local banks, lax planning, political-developer links, uncontrolled immigration to keep demand high.....it had f#ck all to do with other countries except for easy credit. 

Maybe I'll remember why I liked Irish people when they don't talk so much about their new cars, houses, how much the house next door sold for, how much I made on appreciation in one year, how great Ireland is the best place in Europe blah blah.... greedy sh@wer of borroxes for the last five years.... as if Ireland was the centre of the world rather than the piddling little self centred country it is with reams of social welfare spongers, making money by shifting bricks to each other. This will be good to get the country out of its bad environmental policies (overdevelopment) also. 

Ireland won't be going back to any 1980s reccession but people will have to do service and retail jobs they turned their noses up to. There is still a good tech (pharma/electronics) and service (software/finance) centre in Ireland will keep things running along.

If the economy sinks too much it will be difficult for I and many others to come back though.


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## starlite68

you are right mainasia......we became far too greedy, knowing the price of everything but the value of noting......a humble cup of tea lost out to starbucks 4euro latte...but now the piper has to be paid!!!


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## MrMan

> Really, do you think people shouldn't prepare for a bad outcome? Do you think they shouldn't put that little bit extra aside just in case?



Of course they should but not just because they fear the end is nigh they should do it in any case.



> This boom of the last 5 years was brought on by Irish speculation, Irish householders, small landlords, local banks, lax planning, political-developer links, uncontrolled immigration to keep demand high.....it had f#ck all to do with other countries except for easy credit.


The 'boom' has been underway a lot longer than the last 5 years and its pretty narrow minded to look upon it as a bad thing.



> Maybe I'll remember why I liked Irish people when they don't talk so much about their new cars, houses, how much the house next door sold for, how much I made on appreciation in one year, how great Ireland is the best place in Europe blah blah.... greedy sh@wer of borroxes for the last five years.... as if Ireland was the centre of the world rather than the piddling little self centred country it is with reams of social welfare spongers, making money by shifting bricks to each other. This will be good to get the country out of its bad environmental policies (overdevelopment) also.


So we have become far more materialistic, but it sounds quite bitter to suggest that you prefered the Irish (summarised) when we knew our place.


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## mercman

mainasia said:


> Mercman, you are some revisionist. This boom of the last 5 years was brought on by Irish speculation, Irish householders, small landlords, local banks, lax planning, political-developer links, uncontrolled immigration to keep demand high.....it had f#ck all to do with other countries except for easy credit.
> 
> And why, what where and who fueled this greed ? The Banks pumped money to those that offered no security. In fact the less that one had the better the chance they had of the Bank's lending. Who funded the speculation ?? Little point in blaming developers or Politicians as I have already mentioned. They themselves gave enough warnings.


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## limerickboy1

indeed - it was a credit bubble


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## Sunny

mercman said:


> Little point in blaming developers or Politicians as I have already mentioned. They themselves gave enough warnings.


 
I must have missed that. What warnings did developers and politicians give over the past few years about the unsustainable housing bubble that had been created? Do you have any links?


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## z109

mercman said:


> Little point in blaming developers or Politicians as I have already mentioned. They themselves gave enough warnings.


All I have heard from politicians and developers from the peak of prices in 2006 to now is "there's never been a better place to buy", "there's never a bad time to buy a house", "buy now because these prices won't last", "there's great value out there", "the begrudgers should go and hang themselves".

Can you point to a single warning from before August last year?


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## Simeon

Yes, at least one. David McWilliams has been talking down the market for over four years. Now he can claim to be right. A stopped clock being right twice a day!!!!!!!


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## z109

Simeon said:


> Yes, at least one. David McWilliams has been talking down the market for over four years. Now he can claim to be right. A stopped clock being right twice a day!!!!!!!


I don't know what weird world you live in, but DMcW is neither a politician nor a developer. Guess again.


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## mercman

I can remember George Lee pointing out the problems we are now in as long ago as 2002. As well as that the Central Bank advised on numerous occasions of the trouble the Banks were letting themselves in for. No Sunny I have no links with developers or Politicians. My business is property, but mainly overseas which is in a worse position at the moment

Why should a developer warn the public. Pretty pointless really. The Banks caused the problem and they should suffer.


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## z109

mercman said:


> I can remember George Lee pointing out the problems we are now in as long ago as 2002. As well as that the Central Bank advised on numerous occasions of the trouble the Banks were letting themselves in for. No Sunny I have no links with developers or Politicians. My business is property, but mainly overseas which is in a worse position at the moment
> 
> Why should a developer warn the public. Pretty pointless really. The Banks caused the problem and they should suffer.


YOU said that developers and politicians warned people, not me. YOU said it. George Lee is also not a developer nor a politician. 

What is it with property investors? First everthing is on an upward trend. Then it is a temporary softening and the market is pausing for breath. Now that the writing is on the wall in letters ten feet high that BTL is in for a pasting, everyone knew all along and it was the banks' fault that they were greedy and stupid. Yield of 1%? Were people mad?


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## mercman

yogan - 100% correct, but i never mentioned developers sent out warnings.  If anybody brought a Business Plan to a Bank depicting a 1% return they would be shown the door. But didn't you know your friendly Bank Manager knows it all and they are the biggest clowns of all. I recently heard of a BM that has been suspended from duty for his careless lending. The exact same person was the Bank's pride and joy a few years ago.


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## mainasia

MrMan said:


> Of course they should but not just because they fear the end is nigh they should do it in any case.
> 
> 
> The 'boom' has been underway a lot longer than the last 5 years and its pretty narrow minded to look upon it as a bad thing.
> 
> 
> So we have become far more materialistic, but it sounds quite bitter to suggest that you prefered the Irish (summarised) when we knew our place.


 

Now it is not bitter, don't be so reactionary. That's typical of Irish, because I don't live in Ireland I don't know anything about my homeland! I am proud of being Irish but it's not the only thing in my life. Why would I want to keep myself down too 

It is the absolute truth though that the whole property speculation thing was a load of BS, everytime I went home they were droning on and on about it. A whole language had developed since I was away consisting of First Time Buyers, Property Ladders, Buy to Let, Stamp Duty... it seemed to dominate everything. 
Why do you need the banks and the developers to warn people, they make money, it is the government's job to regulate and to warn people and in the end it is the individuals job to make a mature decision themselves. the banks didn't cause the problem alone, it was the older generation telling their adult kids you need to buy now because look our house has increased so much and it was peer pressure and conformity.  There was no regulation and no thought put into any of the new construction, it was obvious to me from seven years ago that high density development was the way to go in Dublin (environmentally, energywise, convenience, quality of life) but everybody in the surrounding areas wanted to get rich rezoning agricultural land for farmland and sure we all want houses even though they are 50 miles out of the city and you need to spend 3 hours a day driving in and out on jampacked roads. 
http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/1114/housing.html

The property boom thing wasn't anything to be so boastful about, it just resulted in a lot of overdevelopment in outlying counties in the main without any infrastructure that could even compare to a city in Asia. The valuation of everything was going up to massive levels but nobody could actually explain why! 


The other thing that was obvious was the massive flash consumer culture that came in big time. When I left there weren't many SUVS, LV handbags floating round but they had really become ubiquitous over the matter of a few years. It just looked like a clone of any large city in the UK. Believe it really was a big change from when I left around 2000. 

I lived outside Ireland for a long time so it was very easy to pick up on the changes. Overall it will be good for me when I go back because I can rent a good place for cheap. I think the last 5 years of the boom was good for getting a more diverse country but it didn't really add value to Ireland as a nation. I was setting up a business outside the country but I didn't even bother approaching any of my Irish friend to see if they were interested. They could easily have invested their spare cash but sure everybody knows property is the guaranteed way to riches... as if bricks and mortar were something that produced value. The property market had sucked up all the investment capital in Ireland that could have produced something that added value to the economy and to the future.

Notice I mentioned the last 5 years, not the lead up to it.....


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## Bronte

It doesn't matter what politicians or developers or Lee or McWilliams or economists or banks or newpapers (with ads from developers) said.  When you decide to purchase a property and get a 100% mortgage, with furniture on credit, no savings, and a car (brand new) on HP, credit cards maxed and overdraft to boot who should be blamed, I don't understand this blaming someone else mentallity.  I too live out of Ireland but I keep in close touch, I'm shocked at the fact that after all the boom there is still not one motorway, water services are deplorable in many areas, houses and apartments built with no thought as to services, many apartments built without proper soundproofing and not built to a proper size for families and worst of all is that places like Carlow and Leitrim are commuter belts for Dublin - sheer madness.    I don't think the recession will affect me personally unless my other half losses his job, and I can't rent my property in Ireland.  We can ride it out, I don't care if interest rates go up as I've all of them fixed, and actually costs are going down this year for us as the youngest starts school in September.  The only bills that will go up are home heating and I'm thinking of getting more double glazing and solar panals.  My car is very small and my commute short so petrol costs going up don't really affect me.


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## Afuera

Mercman, I find the position you take in the "blame game" a little hard to understand. On the one hand you're saying that the developers, who pushed through as many developments as they could and talked up the market, have done no wrong since that is the business they are in. On the other hand though you're saying that the banks, who are in the business of making money from lending, are guilty of being reckless for pretty much doing the same? To my mind it seems like both were simply trying to maximize their business (reckless as it may have been).

Above either of these parties though I don't know why you fail to see that it is the regulators job to ensure that things do not get out of hand or jeopardize the well-being of the country? I'm not sure how anyone can be satisfied with the performance of our Central Bank quango in this whole sorry episode of Irish history to be honest. Standing on the sidelines, harping on about the risks doesn't sound like a very effective stance to take when trying to guarantee the stabilty of the Irish financial system.


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## mercman

In case you hadn't realised it, but the Irish gave control of their financial system to Europe a few years ago. It is one thing for a developer to sell their product. -- it is a completely different scenario when Banks become reckless with their deposit account holders money. A regulator will not (hopefully) control supply and demand. We are a democracy - with a heap of people are now suggesting some type of communism in having the top level control the lower levels - not for me. Good times will return and it wouldn't be too long. The current blip might just put some manners on those who thought they were beyond reproach.


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## Afuera

mercman said:


> In case you hadn't realised it, but the Irish gave control of their financial system to Europe a few years ago.


Nonsense. Giving up control of monetary policies is very far removed for giving up control of the financial system.



mercman said:


> It is one thing for a developer to sell their product. -- it is a completely different scenario when Banks become reckless with their deposit account holders money. A regulator will not (hopefully) control supply and demand.


Regulations are an important part of any functioning economy. Even your beloved developers have to follow regulations regarding planning, safety etc. I get the feeling that our Financial Regulator was asleep at the wheel and allowed the banks to sell whatever products they wanted to the public. Is this the fault of the individual banks who like the developers are simply there to make as much money as they can?



mercman said:


> We are a democracy - with a heap of people are now suggesting some type of communism in having the top level control the lower levels - not for me. Good times will return and it wouldn't be too long. The current blip might just put some manners on those who thought they were beyond reproach.


Not too sure who you think was suggesting communism as a solution.

As for the good times returning in Ireland, I hope you're right but looking realistically at the situation this looks a lot more than a blip to me.


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## Bronte

mercman said:


> The current blip might just put some manners on those who thought they were beyond reproach.


 
If only....... they'll just come up with something new and we'll find out about it in 10 years time.


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## starlite68

mercman said:


> Good times will return and it wouldn't be too long. The current blip might just put some manners on those who thought they were beyond reproach.


 
how can you describe whats happening in the country now as just blip!


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## mainasia

Mercman is probably busy trying to sell off his houses, shushh, don't talk down the economy, at least until I've got rid of them...I  just need  6 more months of greater fools  ...


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## mercman

In the main it is the property and construction sectors which started the downturn, and has now spilt into Consumer spending. Take a look around. The large employers are still carrying on although not at over zealous levels. The downturn we have in Ireland is similar to the situations in most Western European Countries albeit worse in most cases. As other posters have already mentioned, the class of spending and excesses here were ridiculous.


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## mercman

Just to clarify to those that want to be so smart and quick to pass deleterios comments, I do not and never have dealt in residential property.


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## starlite68

the problem is that consumer spending is going to be less and less as people thighten their belts...i have started to cut back on all but the nessades myself.


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## Purple

starlite68 said:


> the problem is that consumer spending is going to be less and less as people thighten their belts...i have started to cut back on all but the nessades myself.


I agree; I don't know what they are but cutting your nessades sounds painful!


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## ccbkd

My Bet is this recession hasn't hit home jut yet with the majority out there, Dublin Airport is as busy as ever with Sunseekers, people are still splashing the cash in the Bars and Nightclubs, the big shopping malls appear to be as busy as ever..but oh boy it will soon, expect a frosty winter!


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## Howitzer

ccbkd said:


> the big shopping malls appear to be as busy as ever


Actually this isn't the case. People may still be going to the Malls but it's somewhat remaniscent of Dawn of the Dead, people go there out of habit but aren't making any purchases. Next time you're walking round a Mall that you reckon is busy with people have a look at the tills - invariably the staff will be chatting idly to one another.


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## Sunny

Howitzer said:


> Actually this isn't the case. People may still be going to the Malls but it's somewhat remaniscent of Dawn of the Dead, people go there out of habit but aren't making any purchases. Next time you're walking round a Mall that you reckon is busy with people have a look at the tills - invariably the staff will be chatting idly to one another.


 
Or else they are busy because most shops are now selling goods at massive discounts.


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## starlite68

i notice a few shops in the square tallaght have closed in recent weeks...i would say the overheads are very big in these places.


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## ccbkd

Have just heard one of Ireland Major House Building Developers has just gone belly up! , as its only through word of mouth I am not going to mention Names just yet till I see it in writing!


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## joejoe

Howitzer said:


> invariably the staff will be chatting idly to one another.


 
That is some thing I noticed years ago, so that alone doesnt really indicate a slow down in consumer spending.

Joejoe


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## joejoe

ccbkd said:


> Have just heard one of Ireland Major House Building Developers has just gone belly up! , as its only through word of mouth I am not going to mention Names just yet till I see it in writing!


 
How will that effect you? Are you buying a house of them, or working for them?

Joejoe


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## starlite68

joejoe said:


> How will that effect you? Are you buying a house of them, or working for them?
> 
> Joejoe


 i would have tought that businesses closeing down and people losing their jobs has an effect on everyone!.......knock-on..ect


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## joejoe

starlite68 said:


> i would have tought that businesses closeing down and people losing their jobs has an effect on everyone!.......knock-on..ect


 
Then, I have wrong assumed that this thread personised not generalized to the whole country and it occupants. 

Joejoe


----------



## starlite68

i take your point joejoe, but what effects someone personally...like losing their job,also has an effect on the country as a whole when we are in a downturn.


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## joejoe

starlite68 said:


> i take your point joejoe, but what effects someone personally...like losing their job,also has an effect on the country as a whole when we are in a downturn.


 
Of course your right too a point, the question I asked the poster was how would the developer going bust effect them personally, not how would it effect the country in general. It will take alot of personal events to effect the general population, so I geuss all the personal events on this thread might go some way to giving an indication of the general wffect on the country.

Joejoe


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## Simeon

Old carrot top is a developer. He started a theme and then developed it! 


yoganmahew said:


> I don't know what weird world you live in, but DMcW is neither a politician nor a developer. Guess again.


----------

