# Third Secretary / Foreign Service application



## Saudi (3 Jan 2007)

Hi

Just wondering if anyone knew when the next round of assessments are due to take place for the Irish foreign service.  Also does anyone know if there is a separate entry level for qualified solicitors and if so what the pay scale is.  Do people think it would be a good career move for a one year qualified solicitor to make (slightly disheartened with private practice)? 

I've had a look on the public jobs website and registered for updates but it isn't very clear so would appreciate any info/advice.

Thanks

S


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## triplex (3 Jan 2007)

best thing is to ring the publicjobs and ask for 'third secretary' when the receptionist answers - this will put you through to the person who dealt with the last competition and they may be able to tell you. they are very helpful. 
p.s - would you please post the answer!


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## Orga (3 Jan 2007)

You are certainly making a big decsion in life, the FS has a huge level of movement and you should be certain that this will not impact on your personal life, away from family, loved ones and friends. The process tends to be quite protracted as there are mny components to it and as the CSAP only manage the process on behalf of the DoFA and appointments are subject to sanction from the Dept Finance. About 9 months can be the process time from what I understand. In terms of earning you should carefully examine the salary scales for 3rd Sec and compare with the profession for which you have originally trained. This may help your decision. There is no separate entry for trained solicitors, of which I am aware, directly to 3rd sec, however the state solicitor's office holds competitions for solicitors/barristers and once engaged within the civil service it may be possible to seek movement to other departments subject to vacancies arising. You should discuss this personally with the appointments commission and they will advise you further. Hope your disillusionment lifts and that the new year brings you happiness


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## Dip Abroad (3 Jan 2007)

Hi Saudi, 

In regard to the next competition for TS keep checking the Public Appointments Service website also keep an eye on the Friday jobs supplement in the Irish Times (any competition should be advertised there).  

There is no separate route into the Diplomatic grades for solicitors / barristers.  However the Department of Foreign Affairs has a Legal Division, the entry level to which is Assistant Legal Advisor (equivalent of First Secretary or general service Assistant Principal).  Again any vacancies (relatively few compared to TS) will be advertised on the PAS and I expect in the press.   Realistically if aiming at the ALA option you would need postgraduate in international law / European law in addition to degree and professional qualifications. 

I agree with Orga that the appointment process can be protracted (all civil service appointments are.   The TS competition varies but has to date involved written aptitude test at first stage, which (if successful) is followed by case studies, presentation and finally interview).   One warning the TS competition attracts a very large number of applicants for very small pool of jobs every year.

As to a good career move only you can decide.  If you pursue the option and join DFA you will find yourself working alongside a large number of fellow refugees from the Incorporated Law Society / Law Library - again not sure if that is postive or negative  .   As a TS you can expect an initial 1 to 2 years at HQ then posted to any of 70 odd missions in over 60 countries worldwide (and more opening up) for 3 to 4 years.  The rest of your career you should split evenly between Dublin and abroad.  Promotion to senior grades; First Secretary, Counsellor, Ambassador are all on merit and by competitive interview (and in DFA more than anywhere else in the civil service I would emphasise competitive - having said that if you are capable and have an appetite for work you will rise).  For the salary scales look here (they give the general service titles rather than Diplomatic but pay is the same) http://ahcps.ie/payinformation/General Service Pay 1 Dec  2006.htm

Orga is right about the impact of movement on personal life.  It’s not all about Embassy receptions in Washington, Paris or Rome, or watching history at the UN (although that side also exists).  Someone also has to fly the tricolour in Teheran and Abuja.  If you like challenges and can contemplate uprooting home every 3 / 4 years, moving to a distant country (– possibly one where you don’t speak the language, know no one having to live in a compound with armed guards and are surrounded by violence and poverty – sorry I’m getting nostalgic) then DFA is for you.  I have never regretted  .

Regards

Anon Dip


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## Saudi (4 Jan 2007)

Guys (and / or girls), thank you very much for the detailed responses, incredibly helpful.

I understand the lifestyle aspect of the 3rd sec job and it isn't something I would be worried about, lived overseas most of my life so am familiar with the life of an expat (violence, poverty and compound living is what I'm all about!).  My girlfriend might be a bigger problem though, she isn't keen on the idea of me joining but I think it's something we can get through.

The application process seems difficult (and very drawn out) so my chances of being successful are slim, however, if I didn't go for it I think I would always regret it

The legal division post sounds interesting but I don't think my current specialisation would be suitable and it would necessitate a change of tact which would probably make me an undesirable candidate from what you have said anon dip.

Thanks for the advice.

S


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## lila (5 Jan 2007)

Hi Saudi, you say that your girlfriend is not happy about you taking the diplomat route but you think that you would get through it, does this mean your girlfriend would have to like it or lump it?


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## Art (5 Jan 2007)

lila said:


> Hi Saudi, you say that your girlfriend is not happy about you taking the diplomat route but you think that you would get through it, does this mean your girlfriend would have to like it or lump it?


 
I really don't think that is anybody else's business.


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## Gordanus (6 Jan 2007)

Having a family really can be a stabilising factor for many people.   There are only so many spouses that can put up with the constant moves and have the ability or inclination to be a 'diplomatic wife'.  Several people have left the DFA as their spouses couldn't bear it anymore.  Very hard for the spouse to have any life - and they will generally be financially dependant on the DFA employee as not many have skills/language to get jobs themselves.


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## BeanPole (10 Dec 2007)

When is the next competition, does anyone know?


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## Rovers1901 (11 Dec 2007)

Probably in 2009. There was a competition this year and they've just started appointing people in the last few months.


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## Staples (12 Dec 2007)

Saudi said:


> My girlfriend might be a bigger problem though, she isn't keen on the idea of me joining but I think it's something we can get through.


 

Don't underestimate the importance of this issue. Going the dip corp is a big, big decision that has huge implications for relationships.  Your work doesn't end at 5.30. You're effectively on call for all of your time abroad. 

I had some exposure to the service some years ago and what I noticed is how the demands remain the same despite changes in personal circumstances. It's a tough, tough life and one that's conducive to only rare circumstances. Moving around the the world every couple of years might seem like a hoot in your early 20s but it becomes more of a pain when you want to get married, have kids, etc. Have you considered, for example, how you girlfriend might react to being expected to host dinner parties in your home overseas for colleagues from other countries? If she's not keen now.......

IMHO, and based on my albeit limited exposure, diplomatic service only works, over a lifetime, where there is a docile, dutiful wife who is happy to up sticks every couple of years, tend to the kids, host work parties, etc, etc in exchange for being invited to occasional Ferrero Rocher reception herself. 

This might have been possible where a single salary was enough to buy a house, cover bills, etc but where both partners are working, the pressure is enormous. The anonymous diplomat might have some insight, for exampke, on the incidence of marriage breakup within the service, but anecdotal evidence I've heard suggests it's proprotionally higher than other parts of the civil service. (I'm open to correction on this one, though).

You're making a huge lifestyle choice here. Look beyond the "See the World" brochure.


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