# Is this accountant's fee reasonable?



## MichaelCOH (19 Jan 2016)

Hi, 

Seeking opinions!

Long, ridiculous story, but my brother owes tax on eight (!) years of rental income, and after much pleading with him to sort it out he contacted Revenue a month ago and confessed all. 

Incidentally, they were very decent with him, no scolding or freaking him out about what his final bill will be, just calm advice.

So, he visited an accountant last week and asked for a quote on sorting it all out. He was told it would cost E2,500. 

Just wondering if that sounds excessive? While there are eight years to deal with, it all looks fairly straightforward to me, there aren't many expenses that he can claim, so it looks like it's just a case of totting up the rental income in that period and figuring out what's owed - presumably Revenue will decide the figure for interest and penalties?

The accountant justified his fee by stressing he would work on getting the best deal possible from Revenue in terms of negotiating a payment plan, likely to be a lump sum up front and then the rest in instalments. 

Would really appreciate your views on whether this is a reasonable fee. 

Many thanks.


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## Gordon Gekko (19 Jan 2016)

It sounds reasonable to me.


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## PaddyW (19 Jan 2016)

I suppose you have to look at it from the point of view, that if the accountant manages to get him a good deal, the amount could far out weigh the €2,500 he's asking for


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## MichaelCOH (19 Jan 2016)

Gordon Gekko said:


> It sounds reasonable to me.



Thank you, that's what I wanted to know, whether that kind of fee was standard. Appreciate the reply.


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## T McGibney (19 Jan 2016)

€2500 for 8 years is an average of €312 per year. That's a good price by any reckoning.

Incidentally, your brother would have been much better off had he got professional advice *before* confessing everything to Revenue but that's another story.


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## MichaelCOH (19 Jan 2016)

PaddyW said:


> I suppose you have to look at it from the point of view, that if the accountant manages to get him a good deal, the amount could far out weigh the €2,500 he's asking for



That's exactly his thinking Paddy, he'd probably pay anything at this stage to get it sorted out. It shows how out of touch I am, I thought the fee would be around E1,000, so I was surprised. But if that's the going rate, so be it. Thank you for the reply.


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## Dr.Debt (19 Jan 2016)

I think he can cut 1500 off this quote by shopping around.

Doing eight years returns in one batch is nothing near the work of doing eight single years at separate times.

The work involved is of a very basic nature and the charge out rate should be at the lowest level.

There is no special skill required in agreeing a payment plan of this nature with revenue.

Maximum work involved is one hour per year for eight years, say 10 hours @ 100 per hour = 1000

Advise your brother to go to two other accountants for a quote.


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## DB74 (19 Jan 2016)

€125 for a tax return?!!!!

Good luck with that one.


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## Dr.Debt (19 Jan 2016)

Dr.Debt said:


> I think he can cut 1500 off this quote by shopping around.
> 
> Doing eight years returns in one batch is nothing near the work of doing eight single years at separate times.
> 
> ...


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## Dr.Debt (19 Jan 2016)

I just range two accountants to ask this question

One said if all the information is delivered in "clean format" 800 euro and the other said 1000. The OP is spot on with his estimation.

There's lots of very good accountants out there working for reasonable fees.


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## elcato (19 Jan 2016)

Dr.Debt said:


> There is no special skill required in agreeing a payment plan of this nature with revenue.


Well if I was given a choice between an accountant who probably does this a few times a year or a Fireman/Roadsweeper/Dentist I would go with the former. 
OP - the figure of 2.5k is an expense as well so depending on the tax bracket your brother is in it may only cost him half of that.


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## DB74 (19 Jan 2016)

But there is a world of difference between an accountant who will just plug the figures into a Form 11 and submit it to Revenue and one who will actually do their best to minimise your tax liability for you.

If you think cheaper is better then by all means, ring around and go with the lowest price


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## Dr.Debt (19 Jan 2016)

Sorry, I'm not trying to antagonise any of the accountants on here. For 100 euro per hour, you should be getting a top guy. The quotes I got this morning were from an FCA and an FCCA. Both top guys. I dont know why thee is such a wide spread in fees  but my advice to the OP is to shop around. You will do a lot better than 2500.


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## DB74 (19 Jan 2016)

I'm not antagonised at all. By all means shop around. 

But if you want your bathroom tiled or house painted then the cheapest guy isn't necessarily the best or isn't necessarily going to be doing as good a job as a more expensive guy.

The difference is that with something like tiling or painting you can see the finished product in front of you so you know if the job is good or not. With a tax return you don't know if the job is good or not, the return goes to Revenue and you get a tax bill, you can't actually know if a different accountant would have done a better job or not.

But I can tell you this, if your accountant doesn't ask you for stuff like your medical expenses, do you pay into a pension, does your job pay your VHI, etc etc then they aren't doing the best job for you, they are just pocketing a quick fee


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## T McGibney (19 Jan 2016)

Minimising the tax liability is one thing. Organising the preparation & filing of returns & submission of payment in a manner which will hopefully minimise the possibility of prosecution, on top of interest and penalties, is another thing entirely.


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## Dr.Debt (19 Jan 2016)

In my experience of accountants and im a non practising accountant myself, cheaper is not always inferior and more expensive is not always better. We have no idea whether the guy who charges 2500 is good or not.

If I was seeking to merge some companies or have a complex set of consolidated accounts prepared, then certainly I would be looking for credentials, however in this case, the task is the most basic of the basic. I dont employ a surgeon when i cut my finger !! A nurse will do the job just fine. A good nurse will do a better job than a surgeon because he or she is doing it every day
A basic level accountant will be more au fait with allowances and deductions of personal taxation than a high flier will be.


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## T McGibney (19 Jan 2016)

Dr.Debt said:


> however in this case, the task is the most basic of the basic.


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## Dr.Debt (19 Jan 2016)

Thats right Tommy, Think 1st year trainee accountant (under supervision !!) lol


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## MichaelCOH (19 Jan 2016)

Dr.Debt said:


> .... One said if all the information is delivered in "clean format" 800 euro and the other said 1000....



Good grief, that's one hell of a difference. My brother gave me the gist of what he was told he needed to give to the accountant and it really sounded fairly straightforward, his affairs aren't complicated, so that's why I thought the quote sounded rather big. Okay, he definitely needs to get another couple of quotes to see if he can get this fee down, many thanks for your reply, greatly appreciated.


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## elcato (19 Jan 2016)

This reminds of the old saying "There's guys that know everything about cars and then there's mechanics".


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## MichaelCOH (19 Jan 2016)

DB74 said:


> If you think cheaper is better then by all means, ring around and go with the lowest price



There's no question of believing cheaper is better, just like it's wrong to assume the most expensive service will necessarily be the best! He knows the fee will be sizeable to sort this out, it's just a question of finding out if this is a reasonable fee for the work involved or if it's excessive. If it was the standard going rate, he'd pay it.


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## Bronte (19 Jan 2016)

Dr.Debt said:


> I think he can cut 1500 off this quote by shopping around.
> 
> Doing eight years returns in one batch is nothing near the work of doing eight single years at separate times.
> 
> ...



I'm with you on this.  Especially as it's only one property.  An accountant I hired from on here did a couple of years returns for me ( got caught up with young kids and stopped doing my own returns, but I knew I owed no tax) and it was a lot more complicated than what the OP is talking about.  And any accountant knows exactly what to do to deal with revenue.


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## dublin66 (21 Jan 2016)

I'd have a simple response here - if someone asked me to do 8 tax returns for a €1,000 and said that they had an accountant that could do it I'd suggest that they'd use that latter person.  I might be persuaded to do 8 tax returns for a €1,000 if it were only P60s - anything else I'd be passing.


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## cremeegg (21 Jan 2016)

MichaelCOH said:


> The accountant justified his fee by stressing he would work on getting the best deal possible from Revenue in terms of negotiating a payment plan, likely to be a lump sum up front and then the rest in instalments.



Whatever about the size of the fee the above is BS. Stay away from this guy.


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## Jon Snow (21 Jan 2016)

Bronte said:


> And any accountant knows exactly what to do to deal with revenue.



Ah Bronte, I'm flattered that you have such a high regard for the entire profession, but I could tell you stories that you wouldn't believe - be in no doubt that there are plenty of accountants out there who routinely make things worse rather than better for their clients.


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## Jon Snow (21 Jan 2016)

cremeegg said:


> Whatever about the size of the fee the above is BS. Stay away from this guy.



May be BS but not necessarily, if the financial circumstances warrant it, and someone who understands the criteria that the tax office and the Collector General's have to operate by, presents the thing in the correct way they could end up in a phased payment arrangement on terms much better than a term loan.


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## MeathCommute (26 Jan 2016)

Is every accountant a tax agent ? Seems to me that some of them will pump the figures into the Form 11 and press a button, and whatever figure comes out, is what you owe the revenue. The tax agent is able to help you with an audit and other negotiation with the revenue. On the basis that this accountant is a tax agent as well, I'd pay the €2500


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## cremeegg (26 Jan 2016)

MeathCommute said:


> Is every accountant a tax agent ? Seems to me that some of them will pump the figures into the Form 11 and press a button, and whatever figure comes out, is what you owe the revenue. The tax agent is able to help you with an audit and other negotiation with the revenue. On the basis that this accountant is a tax agent as well, I'd pay the €2500



Some people will believe anything.

I'm a Tax Consultant, not only can I help you with an audit and other negotiation, I can pro-actively plan your tax affairs so as to minimise the tax burden arising from your on-going activities.

That will be €4,568


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## MeathCommute (26 Jan 2016)

cremeegg said:


> Some people will believe anything.
> 
> I'm a Tax Consultant, not only can I help you with an audit and other negotiation, I can pro-actively plan your tax affairs so as to minimise the tax burden arising from your on-going activities.
> 
> That will be €4,568



For one year ????


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## Bronte (26 Jan 2016)

Jon Snow said:


> Ah Bronte, I'm flattered that you have such a high regard for the entire profession, but I could tell you stories that you wouldn't believe - be in no doubt that there are plenty of accountants out there who routinely make things worse rather than better for their clients.



Actually I know too many stories, but I tend to employ people I can trust, so far this is working out.  This is not rocket science as accounts go in any case.


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## T McGibney (26 Jan 2016)

Bronte said:


> This is not rocket science as accounts go in any case.



Are you serious? There's an actual risk of prosecution here which multiplies if the case (including, but not limited to, the actual submission to Revenue) is mishandled.  If I were the OP's brother, I'd be leaving it in the most capable hands I could find.


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## Bronte (26 Jan 2016)

I'm not afraid of revenue as you seem to be Tommy.  You're not giving a good impression of the competence of your profession?


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## Gordon Gekko (26 Jan 2016)

Bronte said:


> I'm not afraid of revenue as you seem to be Tommy.  You're not giving a good impression of the competence of your profession?



There are terms on which one must engage with Revenue. If that does not happen, the penalties increase. It would be delinquent to engage in a race to the bottom with something like this. A taxpayer should look for someone who is reputable, qualified, and experienced at dealing directly with Revenue. One could pay Big 4 north of €8k for a job like this. Equally, I'm sure we could find some punter who'd do it for €500. A fair price is somewhere in between, and in my view €2,500 represents decent value, assuming that the practitioner is reputable, qualified, and experienced.


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## jim (26 Jan 2016)

I think the OP's starting point is the 2,500 quote he has. Now he should seek 2 or 3 further quotes and make a decision. Too much speculation above complicating what should be an easy decision given enough quotes.


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## T McGibney (27 Jan 2016)

They'd need the get the finger out if they're going to look for more quotes before having any work done. Especially as they have already ill-advisedly notified Revenue of the default.


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## T McGibney (27 Jan 2016)

Bronte said:


> I'm not afraid of revenue as you seem to be Tommy.  You're not giving a good impression of the competence of your profession?



It's hardly my job to proselytise on behalf of my profession. Why should I? There's good bad and ugly in every walk of life.

I stand over my statement that the OP's brother remains at risk of a Revenue-initiated criminal prosecution for failure to file returns for 8 tax years. The quarterly defaulters lists contain long lists of court fines imposed on foot of such prosecutions, the going rate generally being €750 per year.  This could cost upwards of €6,000 here, and also involve publication. Because of this risk, they can't afford to mishandle it, either directly themselves or indirectly on the part of their accountant or advisor.


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## Gordon Gekko (27 Jan 2016)

T McGibney said:


> They'd need the get the finger out if they're going to look for more quotes before having any work done. Especially as they have already ill-advisedly notified Revenue of the default.



One of the salient points of this discussion. Contacting Revenue was crazy, but it's the type of thing that happens when people "nickel and dime" by trying to do things themselves or by looking at cost alone. There is a level of professionalism at which clients get optimum service and optimum results. In my experience, that does not happen in a race to the bottom. And that is not the professionals closing ranks - It is based on years of experience of saving clients from themselves and from bad advisors.


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## Palerider (29 Jan 2016)

I think it shows like everything else shop around, I have heard so many times Accountants going on about their 'special' relationships with Revenue, a lot of twaddle, I have family in Revenue and hear the other side too often, late submissions, unnecessary penalties etc .

This is an easy return to compile in one sitting with all info available at time of completing the returns, Revenue are not the monsters that us Taxpayers sometimes think they are. Quote is ridiculous for work involved, shop it around.


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## T McGibney (30 Jan 2016)

Palerider said:


> Accountants going on about their 'special' relationships with Revenue, a lot of twaddle,.



Which of the accountants here have made such a claim?


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## Gordon Gekko (30 Jan 2016)

Some special relationships aren't that helpful. I used to go out with someone who worked for Revenue...she'd definitely look for a 100% penalty if she was the case manager and I was the advisor on this one.


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## Dr.Debt (30 Jan 2016)

The scare mongering by the accountants on this forum is laughable. The revenue in this country are actually quite easy to deal with, very supportive and very helpful. It's very clearly written into their charter that the public are to be dealth with fairly ,with courtesy and with respect. Yes they will apply interest and penalties to late returns but definitely no prosecutions unless there is strong evidence that the taxpayer is engaging in willful deceit to mislead or falsify returns


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## Rory_W (31 Jan 2016)

a few thoughts 

"he contacted Revenue a month ago and confessed all."
- that will stand in his favour with Revenue and assist in minimising penalties and unlikely that prosecution would be applied as he knocked on their door before they knocked on his  
see www.*revenue*.ie/en/pr*act*itioner/*code-of-practice*-*revenue*-*audit*.pdf page 85 and section 7.3 

whether the alleged offender has made a full disclosure of the irregularities; has cooperated in reaching settlement and has paid all the tax, duty, interest and penalties that are due. 

re a proposed fee of 2500, that would probably be VAT inclusive which is  2032 + VAT or 254 per return. Very little for a return to be prepared, reviewed, discussed with client, amended if required following discussion, submitted to revenue and so on

for the person themselves they, as already mentioned, get a tax deduction. Assuming top rate tax payers this roughly cuts the cost in half. 

a quick google found this from 2013 which at section 6 sets out average fee quotes for CPA accountants which suggest a few of around 430 per return [broken link removed]

430 x 8 = 3440 + VAT which then discount down as you do all together so the fee of 2500 seems reasonable. 

of course you will get someone who says they can get to done cheaper or that a friend of a friend knows someone who will do it for X but let them on. An accountant is a business not a charity and he chooses to set his fee based on his overheads and a customer can either choose to engage them or not. 

Either way it is good that the OP's brother is sorting this out rather than leave it unsettled as revenue make lots of money from interest on late payments of tax.


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## Palerider (31 Jan 2016)

T McGibney said:


> Which of the accountants here have made such a claim?[/QUOTE
> 
> Maybe you are just a little sensitive to my expressing what I have heard again and again over many years from so many of your Accountant colleagues.
> 
> I suggest you read the sentence from the start for full context rather than selective editing.


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## T McGibney (31 Jan 2016)

So you can't stand over your strawman, Palerider? Funny that...


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## Palerider (31 Jan 2016)

Stay on topic, too big to admit when you get it wrong eh,  I have been honest and forthright whilst you are being obtuse attributing comments to me which were never made, ready, fire, aim


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## T McGibney (31 Jan 2016)

Twas you that raised the "special relationship" red herring but never mind. Over and out.


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## Setanta12 (2 Feb 2016)

Dr.Debt said:


> The scare mongering by the accountants on this forum is laughable. The revenue in this country are actually quite easy to deal with, very supportive and very helpful. It's very clearly written into their charter that the public are to be dealth with fairly ,with courtesy and with respect.



They can be very easy to deal with, supportive and very helpful - but that doesn't mean they're right.  I'm a tax-accountant, and it was always drilled into me when training how little those answering the phones or manning the desks in the Revenue actually are at their jobs.   This is changing but at the higher levels, thanks to an influx of recently hired tax-accountants (poachers turned gamekeepers) but I hear they're moved around areas/specialities so often they can't build up expertise in their area.


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## PaddyW (2 Feb 2016)

I have a friend who's a tiler and employs an accountant to do his yearly returns. Always says how good a price he gets charged. So, I was chatting with the friend a few months back and it came up about TRS and I asked had his accountant ever enquired had he been claiming it. Turns out the accountant never noticed or asked about it. My friend got a cheque back from Revenue for €4,500 for 4 years unclaimed TRS. He lost out on previous years beyond the 4 year rule.

Moral of the story, cheaper isn't better, especially when they aren't checking your full tax affairs out for you.


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## Jon Snow (2 Feb 2016)

Setanta12 said:


> I'm a tax-accountant, and it was always drilled into me when training how little those answering the phones or manning the desks in the Revenue actually are at their jobs.



Want to try that sentence again there chief...?! It's always amusing when someone trying to run down the intelligence and competence of thousands of people in one go, can't even structure a simple sentence...


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## Dr.Debt (2 Feb 2016)

Setanta12 said:


> They can be very easy to deal with, supportive and very helpful - but that doesn't mean they're right.  I'm a tax-accountant, and it was always drilled into me when training how little those answering the phones or manning the desks in the Revenue actually are at their jobs.   This is changing but at the higher levels, thanks to an influx of recently hired tax-accountants (poachers turned gamekeepers) but I hear they're moved around areas/specialities so often they can't build up expertise in their area.


Don't know who was drilling that into you but I can tell you with certainty that whoever it was is/was WRONG. Irish revenue is "on the ball" no ifs no buts


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## Gordon Gekko (2 Feb 2016)

Dr.Debt said:


> Don't know who was drilling that into you but I can tell you with certainty that whoever it was is/was WRONG. Irish revenue is "on the ball" no ifs no buts



That is not the case. The frontline staff (answering phones) are frequently wrong, and the more senior staff tend to prefer the interpretation that leads to the worst result for the client.


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