# Seller is STALLING



## réaltín09 (22 Jan 2010)

went sale agreed in November on a house but the seller is currently stalling but am getting no joy from my estate agent...
my solicitor is worried about my loan approval expiring .... estate agent just keeps fobbing me off with "we will ring you tomorrow" but as garth brooks says himself "tomorrow never comes"...

any advice to share with a nervous FTB!


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## mathepac (22 Jan 2010)

réaltín09 said:


> went sale agreed in November ...


What do you mean by "sale agreed"? Are contracts signed, contract deposit paid to vendor's solicitor?


réaltín09 said:


> ... getting no joy from my estate agent...


A common misconception - it's the vendor's estate agent and s/he has only the vendor's interests at heart.


réaltín09 said:


> ... my solicitor is worried about my loan approval expiring ....


Instead of wasting time and money worrying, instruct your solicitor to fire off a missive demanding action in 5/7/10 days time or the offer expires. Are you protected with contracts being "subject to securing finance approval"?


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## sadie (23 Jan 2010)

I would go and view other houses to be honest. 
It's unusual for the seller to be stalling unless there is an issue over them selling/not selling. Especially because they are not giving you a good reason. 
Some sellers may put their houses on the market, wait for an offer and then decide if they are actually going to sell or not - it's free for them to do this because they don't have to pay the estate agent until a sale goes through. 
You may have to face the fact that this is not the house for you. 
Why don't you get your solicitor to ring their solicitor directly?
Or you are entitled to ring their solicitor as well and ask when will the contracts be issued from their side, because you are getting cold feet.


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## Knuttell (23 Jan 2010)

Contact your Solicitor,instruct him to tell their Solicitor that they have 48 hrs to get the show moving,if they fail to react to this then move on,buyers are in the driving seat now,the vendor is caught in a time warp circa 2005...I wouldnt be wasting valuable time on them if it were me.


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## UFC (23 Jan 2010)

If you haven't signed a contract yet, great, because prices have dropped a percent or two since November. So change your offer to be 2% lower. That will save you a lot of money over the lifetime of your mortgage.


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## Vanilla (23 Jan 2010)

sadie said:


> Or you are entitled to ring their solicitor as well and ask when will the contracts be issued from their side, because you are getting cold feet.


 
It's against law society professional guidelines for solicitors to talk to another solicitor's client, so please don't do this. If you ring them they will simply tell you that you will have to make contact via your own solicitor, if anyone talks to you at all that is.

Remembering that you want to buy this house I wouldn't be confrontational about it but it would not be unreasonable for you to put a timelimit on contracts being exchanged unless they come up with a good reason that is acceptable to you.


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## Murt10 (23 Jan 2010)

I presume it is a secondhand house? If it's secondhand and owner occupied, ignore the Estate Agent, call round to the house and ask the sell if there is a problem at his end or is his estate agent just stonewalling you without his knowledge. Talk to the seller. Normally he will find it much more difficult to fob you off than the EA (a property professional) will. 

He may not have found the house he wants or something like that. If it turns out to be something like that instruct your solicitor to issue a letter withdrawing your offer within a short fixed period.


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## mercman (23 Jan 2010)

Vanilla said:


> It's against law society professional guidelines for solicitors to talk to another solicitor's client,.



Hang on until I find a box of lemons to suck. Law Society Professional Guidelines are for the birds. Nobody takes any notice of them.


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## réaltín09 (23 Jan 2010)

thanks guys its always helpful getting advice .. I put down my deposit in November and im just worried that if i lose this house, I lose money forked out on structural survey, valuation and broker. Will talk to my solicitor monday... I dont think i could confront the seller as its a separating couple and it wouldnt be my place to call round questioning....

oh and no contract has been signed cos the solicitor cant draw one up with the delay from the seller...(the seller is blaming the bank for not releasing the deeds...)


thanks


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## PaddyBloggit (23 Jan 2010)

No contract signed  ... you aren't obliged to buy so you're entitled to get your deposit back.

You hold all the cards as you haven't signed .... be very sure before you sign as you will be legally committed to buy and any attempt to pull out will lose you your deposit and vendor could sue you to buy.

Ask for an immediate reduction in price, give a time limit .... and if they are still stalling get your deposit back and try elsewhere.


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## mercman (23 Jan 2010)

+1. Well put Paddy


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## mathepac (24 Jan 2010)

OK, a couple opinions :



 You are not "sale agreed", you are at the "expression of interest" stage; sale agreed is after contracts are exchanged
 As no contracts are signed it was unwise to spend your money of survey and valuation; a contract can (and IMHO always should in the current market) be subject to full structural survey, loan approval and valuation
 Your deposit to the estate agent is refundable if you decide not to proceed; the money you have paid out for survey and valuation is your loss I'm afraid
 I'm going to take a contrary view to the last two posters; unless there is some compelling reason for purchasing this property, get your deposit back and move on as it's very much a buyer's market. It sounds like this property has the potential to be  fraught with delays, half-truths, broken promises and disappointments (for you).


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## réaltín09 (24 Jan 2010)

If Im at the "expression of interest" stage then why is there a "sale agreed" sign in the garden of the house and its off the market to other bidders..come on...

and as for being "unwise" to have spent my money on a survey and a valuation, I was "instructed" to by my bank, my broker and the estate agent...sure thats a requirement before the contract is signed...


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## Vanilla (24 Jan 2010)

mercman said:


> Hang on until I find a box of lemons to suck. Law Society Professional Guidelines are for the birds. Nobody takes any notice of them.


 
How long have you been a practicing solicitor?


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## mercman (24 Jan 2010)

Vanilla said:


> How long have you been a practicing solicitor?



That is very funny !! So the legals meeting in the Shelbourne Bar, or the Bars around Dublin, Cork, Galway all collectively meet to discuss the Ladies Camogie Final. Chinese whispers are the order of the day for which all and sundry know it.


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## k&d (24 Jan 2010)

Hi Realtin, 
Found myself in a similar situation last year. Offer accepted on house, did survey etc etc. After some time things were not moving so i kept asking lots of questions (made myself a right pain in the EA'a neck) – turned out couple were separating but one did not want to sell (the court had ordered the sale) – i won’t go into details except to say i walked away and the house is still on the market. Yes i ‘lost’ money on the survey but it’s not the end of the world. If you are serious about the house you need to get some answers.... otherwise you create the impression that you will hang about until a decision is made either way. It could be a long wait.   
Good luck


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## Vanilla (24 Jan 2010)

mercman said:


> That is very funny !! So the legals meeting in the Shelbourne Bar, or the Bars around Dublin, Cork, Galway all collectively meet to discuss the Ladies Camogie Final. Chinese whispers are the order of the day for which all and sundry know it.


 
I have no idea what on earth you mean. You seem to be contradicting yourself- first you are suggesting that solicitors pay no heed to professional guidelines and go behind their colleagues backs to talk to their clients and then you're talking about collective back slapping meetings. Spare me.


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## PaddyBloggit (24 Jan 2010)

réaltín09 said:


> If Im at the "expression of interest" stage then why is there a "sale agreed" sign in the garden of the house and its off the market to other bidders..come on...
> 
> and as for being "unwise" to have spent my money on a survey and a valuation, I was "instructed" to by my bank, my broker and the estate agent...sure thats a requirement before the contract is signed...




sale agreed on a sign means nothing .... no contacts signed means you can still walk away and get your full deposit back.

Survey and valuations ..... personally I'd have no problem walking away with no other costs than them and paying my solicitor for his/her time. Better to be down a little than down a full contract price.

Some banks require surveys, others don't. In my latest purchase ... they didn't ... but I got a survey done anyway .... a right of way issue arose from it .... it was sorted prior to contracts being signed but if I hadn't gone for my own survey I'd have bought a property with no legal right of way into it!

In relation to your own situation .... issue a 48hr ultimatum for an adequate response. If none if forthcoming then ... for your own sake .... walk away.

I'd even endorse mathepac's advice .... walk away now.

The whole thing is starting to smell fishy .... what seller stalls in the middle of a recession when others would be glad to have an interested buyer?


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## réaltín09 (24 Jan 2010)

will i still have to pay my solicitor his full fee if the sale falls through? and then have to re-hire him if another house comes up..??


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## mercman (24 Jan 2010)

Vanilla said:


> first you are suggesting that solicitors pay no heed to professional guidelines and go behind their colleagues backs to talk to their clients



So the likes of Michael Lynn adhered to the Professional Guidelines. And there are many more similar from the four corners of the country. If you have any problems I will compile a list.

I have never suggested that they go behind their colleagues backs if you read what I posted. They just simply discuss the cases between each other on an ad hoc basis.


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## PaddyBloggit (24 Jan 2010)

réaltín09 said:


> will i still have to pay my solicitor his full fee if the sale falls through? and then have to re-hire him if another house comes up..??




you'll still have to pay your solicitor but you should be able to negotiate his/her fee down as their paperwork etc. is reduced. Also put to him/her that you'll be using their services when you do find another house to buy.

From my experience I've always found the solicitors I've dealt with very fair and they've never overcharged me.


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## mercman (24 Jan 2010)

OP would you not prefer to pay a small amount for a fee to your solicitor than purchase a property at the incorrect price ?


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## z101 (24 Jan 2010)

Is the house currently rented?? May there be an issue around that if so? I.E Tenants refusing to leave unless rehoused, or monies owed, or seller getting extra month of rent in...etc


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## Bronte (25 Jan 2010)

What is the problem with the loan offer expiring? Can't you get another loan offer?

If you are buying a house from a seperating couple than that should tell you that there could be trouble ahead.

If you walk away from this next time know what fees you will have to pay in advance, for examply you could negotiate with your solicitor that no purchase is no fee, you don't need a broker, you can get your own loan so no fee, some banks pay for valuations and a structural survey is worth every penny you will pay for it.

It is most important that your contract has a subject to mortgage clause in it. You can also make it subject to a proper survey so that you are further ahead in the process (and everybody is serious) before spending money.

The reason the Estate Agent has nothing to tell you is probably he doesn't know himself what is going on, the only people who do are the couple.

Mercman I fail to see your point in relation to solicitors in relation to conveyancing in this particularly simple case?


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## mercman (25 Jan 2010)

Bronte said:


> Mercman I fail to see your point in relation to solicitors in relation to conveyancing in this particularly simple case?



My posts have been in reply to 'vanilla' for which there is an amount of argy bargy going on between the two of is. Vanilla is defending the indefensible.


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## mf1 (25 Jan 2010)

mercman said:


> Hang on until I find a box of lemons to suck. Law Society Professional Guidelines are for the birds. Nobody takes any notice of them.



In fairness, you threw this spin ball in out of no-where! It is not acceptable for a solicitor to talk to the other side save through their solicitor. End of. 

"My posts have been in reply to 'vanilla' for which there is an amount of argy bargy going on between the two of is. Vanilla is defending the indefensible."

Vanilla is not defending the indefensible. Vanilla is responding to an off the wall comment that then spiralled when challenged. 

What started off as a "Seller is STALLING" thread has now transpired to be a warring, separating couple selling with  all the attendant issues that arise. 

mf


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## Bronte (25 Jan 2010)

mercman said:


> My posts have been in reply to 'vanilla' for which there is an amount of argy bargy going on between the two of is. Vanilla is defending the indefensible.


 
This is not correct.

Vanilla gave sound advice not to contact the vendor's soliticitor - do you not agree that one should not contact the vendor's solicitor?

What is Vanilla defending that is indefensible in this thread?


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## mercman (25 Jan 2010)

Vanilla said:


> It's against law society professional guidelines for solicitors to talk to another solicitor's client, so please don't do this. you.



This.

And frankly I do not wish to have an open spat on a Public Forum. If you want to have a pop at me and vice versa, do it through the PM route.


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## Bronte (25 Jan 2010)

mercman said:


> This.
> 
> And frankly I do not wish to have an open spat on a Public Forum. If you want to have a pop at me and vice versa, do it through the PM route.


 
I was not having a pop at you at all.  I wanted to understand your point.  

The point you are making is that sometimes solicitors talk to each other off the record/in secret etc, this I know, but it has absolutely nothing to do with this thread.  If I am misunderstanding you than please clarify.

I don't see the need to PM when I'm sure other people on here would like to understand the advice you are giving as well.


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## Peter54 (25 Jan 2010)

Ceatharlach has a point.  A friend of mine is trying to sell his house but has tenants in it.  They are not legally contracted but no doubt if he gets a sale there will be problems.  The auctioneer he's selling through also knows the state of play.

OP, my advise OP is to go looking for a different property.  I sold an investment property last year and was told by my solicitor to waste no time signing contracts as all solicitors had been made aware that mortgage approvals were been retracted right up to the date of signing.


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## loukkcat (26 Jan 2010)

Exact same thing happened to me a few months back. The seller actually went MIA for nearly a month while the sale was supposed to be going through. She'd promised a quick sale and I had handed in my notice where I was renting, and then just went missing (personal problems apparently) and couldn't be contacted by her solicitor or the estate agent. 

Like you I'd agreed legal fees, paid for the survey and valuation, and even had all my furniture ordered. My solicitor said the only option was to tell the sellers solicitor if she (seller) hadn't the contracts back and signed without 2 days I was pulling out of the sale. By this stage, the contracts had been with her for 4 weeks and two closing dates had passed. And low and behold, she came out of hiding and signed the contracts straight away.

Like you, I was scared out of my mind that I'd lose the house, cos it was the only one I'd seen in 4 months of searching that I really liked, and knew it was for me. But in the end,  it all came through. My solicitor thinks she was just in a huff cos she was getting €200k under her original asking price (from 2 years earlier) and wanted to make things difficult.

Good luck!!


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## RIAD_BSC (26 Jan 2010)

mathepac said:


> OK, a couple opinions :
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

Wrong, completely and utterly wrong, right and right.

1 - The OP is 100% right. "Sale Agreed" stage is when an offer has been accepted, but contracts not signed. After contracts have been signed, the house is labelled "Sold".

2 - Why would anybody waste money on a survey after they have signed contracts and are legally obliged to buy the house anyway? Anybody who has bought a house in the last 20 years will tell you that you get the survey done before you sign contracts. And again, the OP is right. You have to get the valuation done for the bank before you can draw down the mortgage. Anybody who waits until they have already signed contracts before getting a valuation (and legally committing themselves to the sale) would be just plain stupid.

I agree with you on points 3 and 4 though


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## Vanilla (26 Jan 2010)

RIAD_BSC said:


> Why would anybody waste money on a survey after they have signed contracts and are legally obliged to buy the house anyway? Anybody who has bought a house in the last 20 years will tell you that you get the survey done before you sign contracts.


 
Think you missed the words 'subject to survey' in mathepacs post. It is perfectly possible to sign contracts in this manner and to be able to pull out of the purchase if the survey result is not acceptable. In fact some people might think it was silly to waste money on a survey when the vendor is not yet committed to sell. This was more of a common attitude in the boom times when gazumping was a real possibility. Nowadays people are more likely to trust the vendor to go through with the deal despite contracts not being signed as there is unlikely to be as much  ( or any) competition.


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## mathepac (26 Jan 2010)

First, I must apologise to OP; the thread has been dragged wildly off-topic by some posters already, and IMHO parts of it have generated more distraction and off-topic heat than on-topic light for OP's benefit. Hopefully my comments here will not be seen as more of the same.


RIAD_BSC said:


> Wrong, completely and utterly wrong, right and right. ....


You will notice that I prefaced my remarks above with a clear statement that they were opinions - not advice and not paid-for legal opinion, just my opinions as an ordinary poster. You may disagree with them, but that doesn't make my opinions right or wrong, it just means we have a divergence of opinions.


RIAD_BSC said:


> ... 1 - The OP is 100% right. "Sale Agreed" stage is when an offer has been accepted, but contracts not signed. After contracts have been signed, the house is labelled "Sold"...


Having bought and sold real property on a number of occasions, on my own behalf, on behalf of family members and having acted as executor for estates a couple of times, I know that until contracts are signed nothing is agreed and an estate agent sticking little signs on a lawn or attaching them to a pole makes not one whit of difference to the status of a property and imposes no legal obligation on either the buyer or the seller. EAs bandy all kinds of words about in their literature and conversations, most of it is “sales speak”, because that’s the job they do - selling, and none of it changes the ownership or status of a piece of real property.

Also refer to other experienced posters in this same thread for their opinions about “sale agreed” superimposed on a For Sale sign, even if the property is no longer being advertised.


RIAD_BSC said:


> ... 2 - Why would anybody waste money on a survey after they have signed contracts and are legally obliged to buy the house anyway? …


I think here you display the same naivete as OP, and I can only assume that is because you have bought and sold a similar number of properties.

This is a buyer’s market and in order to attract and keep buyers, sellers will now ask their solicitors to accept previously unacceptable clauses in contracts, for example, :


 The buyer obtaining a mortgage
 A full structural survey which highlights no problems
 Proof of compliance with building regulations and planning conditions
 Etc.
  In simple terms, the contract remains “conditional” until conditions like those listed are satisfied and if the conditions are not  satisfied, then the contract is null and void. So far from wasting money on a survey, paying for it, conducting it and writing it into the conditions of the the sale / purchase contract is a smart way of avoiding a serious and very expensive mistake.


RIAD_BSC said:


> ... Anybody who has bought a house in the last 20 years will tell you that you get the survey done before you sign contracts. …


In the last few years in a seller’s market, some people purchasing property have done incredibly stupid things, (buying off plans, buying multiple properties with booking deposits in the expectation  of “selling on” and making a quick killing, buying new properties without full structural surveys, buying investment properties because there was a bottomless  rentals market, etc.) and I have heard nothing that confers retrospective validity or intelligence on many of their actions.

Personal experience has helped to form my opinion as have the mistakes of others.


RIAD_BSC said:


> ... And again, the OP is right …


Hopefully OP in expressing his / her opinion is basing it on his / her experience in property market, but a few things about his /her posts have lead me to conclude, rightly or wrongly, that this experience is limited. Firstly,  “any advice to share with a nervous FTB!“, secondly “and as for being "unwise" to have spent my money on a survey and a valuation, I was "instructed" to by my bank, my broker and the estate agent...sure thats a requirement before the contract is signed...“ A prospective buyer doesn't take instruction from a bank, a broker or an EA; two if not all of those organisations are in the business of selling TO the purchaser, so instructions or expectations about performance flow in precisely the opposite direction.



RIAD_BSC said:


> ... You have to get the valuation done for the bank before you can draw down the mortgage. Anybody who waits until they have already signed contracts before getting a valuation (and legally committing themselves to the sale) would be just plain stupid …


First, refer to my comments above about placing conditions in a contract, and second, as a matter of course, before approving a mortgage application, banks will send out their own valuer anyway (although this may be different if OP is working through a paid broker).


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