# Sinn Féin's Dáil motion on trackers to be discussed this Tuesday at 8 pm



## Brendan Burgess (21 Jan 2017)

Hi folks

Sinn Féin has a private member's bill on Trackers this Tuesday at 8 p.m.  It's helpful if there are actually some affected borrowers in the public gallery to watch the debate.  I have something on, on Tuesday evening, but I will try to get in for about 9 pm. The debate should go on until 10 pm.

It's probably a good idea to ask your own TD to sign you in and suggest to them that this is an important issue for you and that they should speak on the motion on Tuesday.  If you don't want to contact your own TD, Pearse Doherty will sign you in. Email pearse.doherty@oireachtas.ie

Brendan

DÁIL ÉIREANN
Fógra Tairisceana : Notice of Motion
GNÓ COMHALTAÍ PRÍOBHÁIDEACHA
PRIVATE MEMBERS’ BUSINESS


“That Dáil Éireann:
notes that:
— the wrongful removal of tracker mortgage rates from mortgage holders, or a failure to restore mortgage holders to tracker mortgage rates they were entitled to, has affected thousands of families;


— the damage caused by the action of the banks involved goes far  beyond a purely financial  effect and that the effects it has had on the health and social  wellbeing of families along with the accompanying social exclusion, must also be considered;

— the confirmed cases number  at  least  11,700 and that  many more are still  likely to emerge with the Governor of the Central Bank of Ireland stating that up to 15,000 is a reasonable estimate;

— the  unique  economic  circumstances  prevailing  at  the  time  this  wrong  doing  was ongoing  resulted  in  a  more  pronounced  effect  and  impact  on  families  affected throughout Ireland;

— the occurrence of this behaviour across the banking system suggests a coordinated and deliberate attempt by Irish banks to deprive thousands of families of their rights;

— the banks have admitted that dozens of families have lost their home as a result with AIB admitting to 14 cases, Ulster Bank to 15 cases, Permanent TSB to 22 and other banks not yet disclosing the number;

— there are also the homes which were surrendered and were a voluntary or agreed sale, the numbers of which are not yet  captured but should also be considered a loss of home;

— in  October  2015,  the  Central  Bank  of  Ireland  finally launched  an  industry wide examination into this practice, years after evidence of its existence emerged; and

— former  Central  Bank of Ireland Head of Financial  Regulation, Matthew Elderfield, told the Committee of Public Accounts, in 2013, that he did not believe the current legislation on the Irish Statute Book is strong enough to bring people to account for white collar crime;

commends the families and advisors that  have campaigned to bring this scandal  to light and pledges its support to all those affected;

condemns  the widespread and scandalous abuse  of mortgage holders’  rights  carried out by multiple banks in which tracker mortgages and the applicable rates were denied to those who were entitled to them;

supports a comprehensive redress scheme that truly works for the customers affected, with a full  right to access to tracker  mortgages at  the rate agreed as per  the contract  or at  the rate applicable at the time the contract was entered into and compensation taking into account the financial and social impact of the bank’s behaviour;

questions the delay in the Central  Bank of Ireland’s actions in carrying out an industry wide examination and expresses concerns that no deadline is in place for the banks to conclude their investigations and to put in place a redress and compensation scheme;

calls for the Central  Bank of Ireland investigation to uncover the grounds under which each lender decided or chose to carry out this level of wrong doing;

believes that a major overhaul of existing law is required to ensure that individuals can be held responsible before the law for their actions in financial matters;

calls on the Government  to bring forward legislation to ensure that  individuals in financial institutions can be held accountable for white collar crime;

and calls on the Central  Bank of Ireland, An Garda Síochána and the Office of the Director of Corporate  Enforcement  to cooperate,  with a  view to establishing if  individuals  as  well  as corporate entities can be held accountable for their part in this scandal.”

— Pearse Doherty, Gerry Adams, John Brady, Pat Buckley, Seán Crowe, David Cullinane, Dessie Ellis, Martin J. Ferris,  Kathleen  Funchion,  Martin  Kenny,  Mary  Lou  McDonald,  Denise  Mitchell,  Imelda Munster, Carol Nolan, Jonathan O'Brien, Eoin Ó Broin, Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin, Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire, Louise O'Reilly, Aengus Ó Snodaigh, Maurice Quinlivan, Brian Stanley, Peadar Tóibín.
[19 January, 2017]


----------



## Tedtalk (21 Jan 2017)

Thanks Brendan!

I felt this would start dying down as letters started to be issued, however I'm glad to see that is not the case. While there are a couple of current bank heads who were in place as this was happening from early 2009, it will be difficult to pinpoint the specific decision makers responsible. I just hope the Central Bank ensure the banks in question receive the maximum possible fines for their actions!!


----------



## notabene (21 Jan 2017)

Teaching a night class on Tuesday nights unfortunately


----------



## Reporter (22 Jan 2017)

I hope you don't mind me mentioning this here Brendan, but for what it's worth to anybody who will be keeping an eye on that bill on Tuesday and is affected by this tracker scandal, I am due to cover it for the Irish Daily Mail, where I work as a reporter, for Wednesday's paper.


I am looking for case studies. Pearse is trying to get me some and so are a few others involved in all this. But I thought I would try here too. 


Ideally, I would like to interview people who are OK about going on-the-record and would not mind having their photograph taken. 


I appreciate that is a tall order as few people want to either talk about their personal finances in public or do anything that might affect whatever redress they may or may not have coming to them. 


I really need to be able to put some names and faces to the 15,000+ customers affected (as opposed to - as the banks say - 'accounts affected'). 


I totally understand why people do not want to talk openly and on-the-record about this but if there is anybody out there who is prepared to talk about what their bank or other financial institution did to them, continue to do to them and how this has all impacted on them, and their family, I would love to speak to them. 


I can be contacted via email at neil(dot)michael @ dailymail(dot)ie


----------



## Bronte (22 Jan 2017)

Neil, I've reported your post so that BB sees it. Will look forward to reading your article.


----------



## Brendan Burgess (22 Jan 2017)

Just to emphasise what Neil says.  Padraic Kissane and I can make as many well argued points about the practices of the banks, but readers and viewers pay little attention.

One story about a real person and how they are affected has real impact.

Brendan


----------



## Reporter (22 Jan 2017)

Thanks for that, Bronte.


----------



## Freshstart (22 Jan 2017)

Watching this with interest! This would certainly put on the pressure to both fairly compensate those of us effected and also help in the fight for a fair tracker rate and not these Mickey mouse rates the banks have deemed we should be on!


----------



## Brendan Burgess (23 Jan 2017)

Anyone planning to attend on Tuesday evening?


----------



## Lightening (23 Jan 2017)

Yes I will be there. Had confirmation from Pearse Doherty this morning.


----------



## Wardy7 (23 Jan 2017)

I can't make it unfortunately!


----------



## SaySomething (24 Jan 2017)

I'll also be there this evening. It's also being covered on the 9pm news on RTE1 tonight.


----------



## Onceagain (24 Jan 2017)

Can you watch the debate live anywhere


----------



## SaySomething (24 Jan 2017)

Oireachtas TV it's live on their website and on FTA.


----------



## MorgVar (24 Jan 2017)

On TV channel now live


----------



## Onceagain (24 Jan 2017)

Thanks


----------



## mister32 (24 Jan 2017)

Sky channel 574

Speakers are excellent


----------



## Onceagain (24 Jan 2017)

Apart from Michael Noonan.


----------



## Onceagain (24 Jan 2017)

No time lines issued by central bank, unbelieveable.


----------



## Balfour (24 Jan 2017)

Fair play to Michael McGrath, Excellent.


----------



## MorgVar (24 Jan 2017)

Michael McGrath excellent and informed


----------



## Onceagain (24 Jan 2017)

Brilliant delivery, gives hope.


----------



## Suz2015 (24 Jan 2017)

Did Michael Noonan speak? I missed the start :-(


----------



## Bradym (24 Jan 2017)

On rte news next


----------



## DCH247 (24 Jan 2017)

He spoke but didn't really move far from the script to be honest, no dates and really no more actual rigid enforcement towards the Central Bank so we move along again. The other speakers were excellent however and I agree have certainly given us some hope


----------



## Gen360 (24 Jan 2017)

Seems to be consensus from everyone there. It will be interesting to see what the bill will look like if it's passed.


----------



## Wardy7 (24 Jan 2017)

Was there much said about the high tracker rates?


----------



## Gen360 (24 Jan 2017)

The high trackers were discussed by several speakers. It's still going on. Pearse Doherty speaking again at the moment.


----------



## Tedtalk (24 Jan 2017)

Great performance by TDs especially Pearse Doherty and Michael McGrath tonight! Two very smart impressive dudes.


----------



## mister32 (24 Jan 2017)

Exactly. Brilliant by Pearse Doherty
And Michael McGrath.

But Noonan just going through motions. Spouting usual crap that central bank has already said. 

I believe fine Gael has contributed to the problem. In particular I hold Noonan responsible.


----------



## Gen360 (24 Jan 2017)

Doherty and McGrath earning serious points in my book for their work on this. They actually seem to be emotionally involved. They have obviously heard some heartbreaking stories generated by this scandal.


----------



## Onceagain (24 Jan 2017)

Amazing to see someone in that position, just reading from a script, my 5 year old could could have done better. Don't think he looked up once, is that good enough, our minister for finance. But agreed Doherty/McGrath were excellent, brilliant to see all TD's united on this one. It ain't over till the fat lady sings. Feeling hopeful.


----------



## Bronte (25 Jan 2017)

Anybody able to summarise what happened.  I didn't hear it on the radio and unless I'm mistaking it no article in the newspapers either.


----------



## Brendan Burgess (25 Jan 2017)

I missed the first hour. I was there from 9 pm to close of the debate at 9.45 pm.

The only visitors present were users Lightening, Say Something and Mr. Say Something. 

It appears that everyone who spoke supported the spirit of the motion.
Pearse Doherty and Michael McGrath made excellent speeches at the start.  From experience, they are both all over these mortgage issues and articulate them very well.

I watched some rubbish speeches in my short time there:
Some guy on the Independents benches, don't know who he was.
Eamon Ryan of the Green Party - absolute meaningless waffle - more on that later.
One of the Healy Rays  " De banks squeeeeled to the Revenue Commissioners on some farmers who had non-resident accounts and now dey are taking their tractors from dem."

Noonan left shortly after I came.  Minister Kyne(?) read the response from the government side.  Explained in some detail about the fine imposed on Springboard mortgages and what a good job the Central Bank was doing.

Pearse responded. I found the Donegal Irish very hard to follow. But I gathered that there was widespread tacaíocht for the motion. The government appears to have tabled an amendment but only on two minor points. Pearse asked them to withdraw the amendment and they refused.

Therefore it will go to a vote on Thursday morning - all the rest of the TDs having gone home.

Brendan


----------



## mister32 (25 Jan 2017)

The disagreement_ I think_ is whether to attribute blame to the central bank.

The government does not want to.

Could that be because the central bank has been doing the government bidding?


----------



## SaySomething (25 Jan 2017)

Was great to meet you briefly yesterday @Brendan Burgess and @Lightening
I missed the first approx 20 mins. Just a couple of points.

Minister Noonan: Read from script. Was practically in a trance for most of the debate (this is normal for him in the chambers I believe). Very little deviated from the written speech, if at all. It doesn't give me much hope that the Government will take it into hand.

Michael McGrath: Excellent, really excellent. I think the fact that he emphasised the lack of timeframe and deadlines imposed by the Central Bank is very important. He made the point that even if the bill/motion (i'm still unclear which it was) doesn't pass he would urge the Minister to investigate this. He was constantly taking notes and gave real examples of the issues. Left before the end of the debate but was quite engaged.

In general: Quite a few of the TD's used the debate as a springboard for wider issues surrounding the banks and economy which took away from the matter at hand. Richard Boyd Barrett went off on a complete tangent. Eamon Ryan and one of the Healy Ray's as well. Completely irrelevant. Spoke volumes. It's clear that they don't have a grasp of the issue. If they were my TD's I'd be quite mad with them and writing a letter post haste!

The thing is if your TD/Senators don't understand the tracker issue then they cannot represent on your behalf in the Dail, nor can they communicate on behalf of the affected customers. If members take anything from last night I'd recommend you write to your local representatives explaining your circumstances and why the lack of action by the relevant authorities is causing you hardship.

I missed Pearse Doherty's last speech as I was dashing for transport home but I'll catch it on playback now and translate as best I can.

@mister32 As I understand it, the difficulty with attributing blame to the Central Bank is that they technically are no higher power for banks. If they are found to be at fault then it's a Government issue. Giving rise to 2 questions. 1. Who oversees the Central Bank (the answer here is the Government)? 2. How can the Central Bank be investigated (a tribunal costing a lot of money I suspect)?

ETA:
Here are the MP4 links to the debates last night for anybody interested in watching themselves (while I root out my Irish dictionary).

First Hour: 

Second Hour:


----------



## SaySomething (25 Jan 2017)

Pearse Doherty's speech - roughly translated from Irish (VERY ROUGHLY!)

Thank you Minister Noonan for your response and input and thank you to the TD's who participated in the debate and your comments. 

One of the things that is clear tonight from this debate is that there is great support from everybody, from every party, for the people who have been affected by this tracker issue and suffered greatly. The difference that we have here is how can we start/progress from here, bearing in mind that there have been amendments suggested by the Government and by Mr McGrath. And the thing I take from Mr McGrath's amendment is that we should be making our voice (the dail's) heard on this for the vote on Thursday.

I listened to what Minister Noonan had to say in relation to this and I appreciate that he said that he supports the sentiment behind the motion that Sinn Féin have put forward tonight. So I think we should look at this and not be splitting hairs over which motion is more correct. Because I think that the most important thing is that we take this seriously, and that this can't be allowed to continue, and that things be put right.

He then moves over to English from minute 37.


----------



## Balfour (25 Jan 2017)

Michael McGrath mentions the 3.67% tracker issue from minute 45.30


----------



## Balfour (25 Jan 2017)

Brendan Burgess said:


> I missed the first hour. I was there from 9 pm to close of the debate at 9.45 pm.
> 
> The only visitors present were users Lightening, Say Something and Mr. Say Something.
> 
> ...



Brendan

Easy on the poor Framers!!!!!


----------



## mister32 (25 Jan 2017)

Michael McGrath voiced concern about the behaviour of the central bank and maybe it's not equipped to represent customers.

After the crash central bank was focussed on the prudential /stability side of monitoring the banks.

Protecting customers is a totally opposite role.

The central bank has been found wanting in this regard.

They have agreed the governor will report quarterly to the Oireachtas finance committee.

That's a good thing.


----------



## mister32 (25 Jan 2017)

Summary of Michael McGrath speech


. Outline of the issue
. Central bank consumer protection not playing champions league
. Aib 3.67%, ptsb 3.25%
. Concerted effort across all banks
. Investigate banks 
. Criminal investigation if needed
. Quarterly meeting with central bank
. Customers who lost their homes
. Check mortgage contract
. Can we believe bank of Ireland


----------



## Lightening (25 Jan 2017)

He also said (not exact quote) that the investigation can not be trusted. (Central bank, investigators, banks, etc)  That it was up to each individual themselves to fight  their case for their tracker.


----------



## Bronte (25 Jan 2017)

What was Doherty speaking in Irish?

And I agree with anybody who say can we believe banks.


----------



## Lightening (25 Jan 2017)

It was plain english


----------



## SaySomething (25 Jan 2017)

@Bronte I translated Pearse Doherty's speech on page 2 of this thread.


----------



## Lightening (25 Jan 2017)

Re my quote above it was Michael McGrath who stated each individual must fight themselves for the tracker. 

Both Michael McGrath and Pearse Doherty were outstanding! It was excellent from 8pm until 9pm then went off the beaten track.


----------



## Neverever (25 Jan 2017)

Minister Noonan last night during the private members motion. He did not even disguise the fact he was not interested. All he did was read out press releases taken from the Central Bank website, word for word. He hardly even added any context. I recited it word for word with him. Sadly I knew them word for word.

Only on the Friday before I recited the exact same press releases to AIB to remind them of their obligations. I wrote the press releases down word for word from the CB website, then I wrote them out again to assist so I would be more familiar with the wording. 
I then rang AIB and read it out to the person on the other end, word for word so it was clear we both knew what AIB's obligations were and then asked them to address my specific questions. 

Didn't have quiet the impact I had hoped for bit I did become very familiar with the CB press release wording...

Maybe Minister Noonan was eves dropping on my call, and like the cut of my jib.... 
Or else we was just lazy, did not feel like preparing for something he will not take action anyway and decided to just read out statements that were issued last year.


----------



## Brendan Burgess (25 Jan 2017)

There has been a bit of press coverage saying roughly speaking what is reported above 

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/poli...spicable-actions-have-caused-misery-1.2950012

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/sinn-feins-pearse-doherty-says-9684902

The Irish Mirror explains the position 

"Fine Gael refused to support the motion in its current form, with party insiders saying that while the bill had merit, the “inherent negative criticism” of the Central Bank put forward were problematic for the Government."

Not sure why the Government doesn't want to be explicitly critical of the Central Bank. 

They are causing an unnecessary vote which will be carried by the force of numbers.

Brendan


----------



## Freshstart (25 Jan 2017)

I won't lie I couldn't even watch all Noonans speech. Interested as I am I actually couldn't take in a word listening to how lack lustre he sounded. Extremely impressed with both Pearse Doherty and Michael McGrath. They bolster my faith that all hope is not lost.


----------



## Bradym (25 Jan 2017)

Pearse Doherty spoke on today FM, the last word with matt Cooper


----------



## Neverever (26 Jan 2017)

This us due to be voted on today at 1pm?


----------



## Neverever (26 Jan 2017)

Minister Noonan amendment was deafeated they now voting on Michael Mcgrath amendment I believe.


----------



## Neverever (26 Jan 2017)

Ok so Michael McGrath amendment was approved, does anyone know does this mean the motion is accepted - just with the ammendmants Michael McGrath made.

His ammendments were not huge I don't believe.

Any politicaly savy poster explain to me what happens next?


----------



## mister32 (26 Jan 2017)

No vote from me for fine Gael next time


----------



## Lightening (26 Jan 2017)

Me neither!

I know who I'll be voting for next time!


----------



## SaySomething (26 Jan 2017)

As I understand it the motion is approved with the McGrath amendment so it's been carried. His amendment did make sense to be fair.


----------



## Brendan Burgess (26 Jan 2017)

This is not a Bill. It's only a motion. I don't think it has any effect other than to generate welcome publicity for the issue as it highlights the government's lack of interest and the Central Bank's lack of action. 

Brendan


----------



## SaySomething (26 Jan 2017)

Ahhhh there was confusion in the Dáil even on Tuesday night about this.


----------



## SaySomething (26 Jan 2017)

Here's the best explanation of what a motion is:

_A motion is a formal proposal by a member to do something.[1] Motions are the basis of the group decision-making process.[2] They focus the group on what is being decided.

Generally, a motion should be phrased in a way to take an action or express an opinion. A motion to not do something should not be offered if the same result can happen without anything being done.[3] Such a motion could result in confusion if the assembly does not want to not do it.[3]
_​_https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_(parliamentary_procedure) _


----------



## Brendan Burgess (28 Jan 2017)

Here is the final wording, including the FF amendment:I have highlighted what I see as the main changes in red. 

Brendan 


“notes that:
— the wrongful denial of mortgage holders of their right to revert to a tracker rate following a period on a fixed interest rate, or the failure to restore mortgage holders to the correct tracker mortgage rate they were entitled to, has affected thousands of families;

— the damage caused by the action of the banks involved goes far beyond a purely financial effect and that the effects it has had on the health and social wellbeing of families, along with the accompanying social exclusion, must also be considered;

— the confirmed cases number at least 11,700 and that many more may still possibly emerge with the Governor of the Central Bank of Ireland stating that up to 15,000 is a reasonable estimate;

— the exceptional economic circumstances prevailing at the time this wrong doing was ongoing may well have resulted in a more pronounced effect and impact on families affected throughout Ireland;

— the occurrence of this practice across the banking system was widespread and systemic and resulted in thousands of families being denied their contractual rights;

— the banks have admitted that dozens of families have lost their home as a result with AIB admitting to 14 cases, Ulster Bank to 15 cases, Permanent TSB to 22 and other banks not yet disclosing the number;

— it seems certain that there are also homes which were surrendered and were a voluntary or agreed sale, the numbers of which are not yet captured but should also be considered a loss of home;

— in October 2015, the Central Bank of Ireland launched an industry wide examination into this practice, and this remains ongoing; and

— the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach, is currently examining this issue and has agreed to invite the Central Bank of Ireland to attend before the Committee on a quarterly basis, and it remains open to the Committee to issue a report and make recommendations on any aspect of this scandal;

commends the families and advisors that have campaigned to bring this scandal to light and pledges its support to all those affected;

condemns the widespread and scandalous abuse of mortgage holders’ rights carried out by multiple banks in which tracker mortgages and the applicable rates were denied to those who were entitled to them;

supports a comprehensive redress scheme that truly works for the customers affected, with a full right to access to tracker mortgages at the rate agreed as per the contract or at the rate applicable at the time the contract was entered into and compensation, taking into account the financial and social impact of the bank’s behaviour;

calls on the Central Bank of Ireland to impose a deadline for the banks to conclude their investigations, to put in place a redress and compensation scheme, and to have as the overarching priority, looking after the customers who have been directly affected;

calls for the Central Bank of Ireland investigation to uncover the grounds under which each lender decided or chose to carry out this level of wrong doing;

calls for an independent review of existing law to ascertain if sufficient powers exist to hold individuals responsible for their actions in financial matters;

calls on the Government to bring forward any such legislation that is identified as being necessary as a result of this examination, to ensure that individuals in financial institutions can be held accountable for any white collar crime that may occur; and

calls on the Central Bank of Ireland to use all of the available statutory powers to establish the truth of what happened in this case, including a detailed account of how it happened, who was responsible and to be led by the evidence in bringing any matters to other statutory bodies as appropriate.”


----------



## mister32 (28 Jan 2017)

Thanks Brendan

Another key point that could be highlighted 
with a full right to access to tracker mortgages at the rate agreed as per the contract or at the rate applicable at the time the contract was entered into


----------



## Freshstart (28 Jan 2017)

I'd be very interested to hear Padraic Kissanes thoughts on the events of the week.


----------



## delsalmon (2 Feb 2017)

Did the vote on the motion go ahead? I see from news reports last week that it was to be voted on Thursday but can't find anything about it.
I'm one of the Ptsb 3.25%ers


----------



## Brendan Burgess (2 Feb 2017)

Yes. It was covered on AAM. Probably earlier in this thread.


----------

