# Person using an elderly person's ATM account to withdraw €20,000



## States (14 Mar 2014)

I have just found out the shokcing news that my eldery mother has had approx €20K taken from her bank since last Nov.  I'm pretty sure I know who has done this and the bank are looking at their AMT CCTV today to see if it is this person.

Money was been taken out on a regular basis and always the exact same amount (€600).  My mother has home help and therefore would not be leaving the house often and has never used an ATM & also would not need that much to survice even in a month!

The bank have said that there is little they can do if she was willingly giving the card to this person.  
I would presume however that we can persue the suspected person in some manner?  
Any ideas?
Thanks in advance


----------



## emeralds (14 Mar 2014)

Contact Age Action. We had to do similar once and while they could do nothing they were able to confirm what we had thought re financial abuse. However, the older person involved had willingly given pin nos and card to the person so the bank declined to get involved. Same with gardai. This was about 10 years ago so maybe things have improved since.


----------



## Brendan Burgess (14 Mar 2014)

Has your mother supplied you with any explanation of why she gave this person her card and pin? 

Or did the "thief" rob your mother's identity and apply for an ATM card in her name? 

It doesn't sound as if the bank has done anything wrong here.


----------



## Gerry Canning (14 Mar 2014)

States; 

If you can have your mother sign letter instructing bank to cancel atm card now.
At least you can stop the 600 coming out from now on.


----------



## States (14 Mar 2014)

My mother is unaware of this as of yet as this would be too upsetting. I am assuming that she gave this person her pin.
Have been to the bank today and have cancelled the card.


----------



## Gerry Canning (14 Mar 2014)

I understand; 
At least with card cancelled you have stopped the drain.
Looks bad for the person who did these withdrawals?


----------



## States (14 Mar 2014)

Just waiting for the bank to come back to us with the results of CCTV.

Is the upper limit for ATM's €600 ?

Have been in contact with Age Action & they recommended contacting the Gardai if we can identify the person.


----------



## RainyDay (14 Mar 2014)

Surely the first stop would be with the Gardai?


----------



## States (14 Mar 2014)

If it's the person I think it is, he is a relative of the home care person who has been doing odd jobs.  The home care folks have a responsibility here I guess .... 

Will be getting Gardai involved.


----------



## emeralds (14 Mar 2014)

States said:


> If it's the person I think it is, he is a relative of the home care person who has been doing odd jobs.  The home care folks have a responsibility here I guess ....
> 
> Will be getting Gardai involved.



That is simply appalling.


----------



## States (14 Mar 2014)

I fully agree emeralds.
The sad thing is my Mum thinks they are wonderful people & are extermely nice to her....but obviously I'm questioning their motives.


----------



## RainyDay (14 Mar 2014)

States said:


> If it's the person I think it is, he is a relative of the home care person who has been doing odd jobs.  The home care folks have a responsibility here I guess ....
> 
> Will be getting Gardai involved.



Don't go too far down the road of working out who it is - just go to the Gardai and let them do their job.


----------



## PaddyBloggit (14 Mar 2014)

Get the Gardaí involved.


----------



## MacMun (14 Mar 2014)

Rather than open my own thread, I have an elderly uncle in a similar situation and I have my suspicions about his neighbors and activity on his account.  Will the bank speak with me if I rang them? I do not have power of attorney but am next of kin but living 2 hours away from my uncle so can't drop into bank.


----------



## States (16 Mar 2014)

Unbelievably, the bank CCTV shows my mother's carer taking €400 out from ATM on Thursday.  Texted carer "did you take Mum to bank on Thurs as she can't remember" Response was "She'll take a taxi to bank or I'll take her".  So avoided the question.  

Gardaí on the case and carer is now under investigation.  Talked to Director of care company and told them to cancel care until this is sorted. 

Total of €24K taken in cash from ATM since last Oct. Could be more as statement shows high bills for weekly shop so may have been buying additional things.  Only statement I have is since last Oct and Mum have been receiving care since March last year, so could end up being more.
Absolutely devastating.  

Gardaí have been helpful and will being putting a statement together for Mum to sign along with requesting she allows them access to her bank account.

The Bank have been very helpful so MacMum I would recommend you contact them.  I don't have POA either but as her son they have been helpful. 
Have had to change locks on house as carer has a set of keys.  Have had to take Mum home to my place in the meantime until this is sorted. 

How could someone be so horrible?


----------



## seantheman (16 Mar 2014)

States said:


> Have had to take Mum home to my place in the meantime until this is sorted.


 
I think that if more people with this option could do so sooner we'd see less incredulous threads in the Wills/inheritance and Askaboutlaw forums.


----------



## AlbacoreA (16 Mar 2014)

seantheman said:


> I think that if more people with this option could do so sooner we'd see less incredulous threads in the Wills/inheritance and Askaboutlaw forums.


 
That's a different dicussion often the relative accommodation is unsuitable for an older person.


----------



## RainyDay (16 Mar 2014)

States said:


> Unbelievably, the bank CCTV shows my mother's carer taking €400 out from ATM on Thursday.  Texted carer "did you take Mum to bank on Thurs as she can't remember" Response was "She'll take a taxi to bank or I'll take her".  So avoided the question.
> 
> Gardaí on the case and carer is now under investigation.  Talked to Director of care company and told them to cancel care until this is sorted.



Glad to hear the Gardai are on the case. I'd suggest you avoid any further contact with the carer or others. You could end up screwing up the Gardai's case or hard work. Leave it to them.


----------



## States (17 Mar 2014)

Gardaí have informed us that dossier will be sent to DPP.  Does this take a long time to move through the system? 

Care company are looking into all the people this person looked after to determine if there any other instance of abuse.

Do you think that this is any liability on the care company in this instance?  Are they responsible in some way for the actions of their employees?

Me and the rest of the family are worried that this person along with the relation who was doing odd jobs could just turn up on Mum's door at any time.   Am now looking at care homes for her but she is very reluctant & is saying at the same time she will not take carers again.  We will have to make a decision for her I think.

Please can everyone spread the message to keep an eye on accounts of their elderly. 

Banks should maybe consider introducing a special card for carers that can be monitored & the person being cared for can be kept notified of unusual transaction.


----------



## delgirl (18 Mar 2014)

States said:


> Please can everyone spread the message to keep an eye on accounts of their elderly.


Very good advice and also applies to anyone who has contact with an elderly, vulnerable person.

A friend of mine and another neighbour keep an eye on a very naïve, vulnerable elderly female neighbour who lives alone and has no relatives.

Following a recent operation, she was assigned a male carer who, although he was only required to call to the house twice a week, was there every day.  A short while later, his daughter started to visit the house with him on a daily basis as well and the old lady thought she must have some sort of bladder problem as she spent a lot of time upstairs!

The neighbours asked the elderly woman a bit about the man by way of casual conversation and discovered that she was giving him / he was asking for €100 every time he took her somewhere in his car.

They also discovered that when he heard she owned land in Tipperary, he said that his ancestors came from there, he would love to own land there and move back when he retired.  She mentioned to the neighbours that she had made an appointment with her solicitor to have the land transferred to him - a man she had only known a few months.

The neighbours contacted the District Health Nurse who reported the carer and contacted her solicitor.

They never discovered how much money she gave him and how much the daughter stole from the woman's bedroom upstairs, but thanks to vigilant neighbours, she was spared further abuse.


----------



## Joe_90 (18 Mar 2014)

Everyone should keep an eye on their own accounts and the accounts of any vulnerable people.  Given the exposure in current accounts to fraud you should only keep then minimum in your current, the OP could have taken steps to reduce the risk by ensuring than thousands of Euro were not left in the account.

Current accounts are not like credit cards if there is fraud the bank can as in this case the cardholder gave the PIN to someone!


----------



## STEINER (18 Mar 2014)

That is a shocking tale from Delgirl.  

Likewise with the OP's story.   I hope it works out ok.  Unfortunately, the money might not be recoverable.  Seek legal advice regarding the liability of the care company providing the care.

Where you have money and vulnerable older people, there are rogue elements everywhere, be it neighbours, carers, family.


----------



## Gerry Canning (18 Mar 2014)

States ;

Now that (carer) has been rumbled, it is highly unlikely they will contact your mother.
Could you ask the Guards to request suspect to stay away from mother .

If she is capable of staying in her home ,with a bit of carers help , that is probably the best option. 
The (carer) broke a position of great trust , but thankfully that type of (carer) is unusual.


----------



## Vanessa (2 Apr 2014)

Gerry Canning said:


> States ;
> 
> Now that (carer) has been rumbled, it is highly unlikely they will contact your mother.
> Could you ask the Guards to request suspect to stay away from mother .
> ...


 

While it may be unusual there have been a number of cases recently with significant amounts involved. The family will really have to take control of this situation. Often the very good carers will do some shopping, collect dry cleaning etc. for the elderly person. This is great once basic records are kept and the carer only gets what is spent against receipt. I would have no issue with them getting an extra 20/30 now and again to cover petrol and such. This should be supervised by the family and use of ATM cards by a carer  is not on


----------

