# Stop for unmarked garda car?



## 900TS (17 Feb 2014)

Does anyone know if you have to stop for a garda driving an unmarked car - no blue lights, no uniform?
I was cycling last week and had an 'incident' with a car that was driving aggressively in the bus lane - the driver flashed his wallet/badge at me, and I stopped - but I did wonder should I have/was I entitled to cycle on.
I had no way of knowing at that point if he was a genuine garda, or even if that's what he was actually indicating.


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## demoivre (17 Feb 2014)

AFAIK you have to stop for a Garda no matter what they're driving, as long as they can show they are a garda !


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## Gerry Canning (17 Feb 2014)

Probably not , you can,t be clairvoyant!

1. Cars kill cyclists ,not the other way round.Safer for you to back off.
2. If Garda was driving aggressively , it s highly probable he was on an urgent journey.


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## Guns N Roses (17 Feb 2014)

Gerry Canning said:


> it s highly probable he was on an urgent journey.


 
If he was on an urgent journey, should he not be using the appropiate undercover car with flashing blue lights?

Also does anyone know if the Garda badge includes photo id? ie. how does one know that the badge is legit?


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## Gerry Canning (17 Feb 2014)

undercover and flashing blue lights don,t mix !
Anyway point 1 stands.


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## Joe_90 (17 Feb 2014)

900TS said:


> Does anyone know if you have to stop for a garda driving an unmarked car - no blue lights, no uniform?



Are you talking about an unmarked squad car with blue lights in the front grill, at the sides and in the rear window type of unmarked squad car or just a garda in their own car.

You should certainly stop for an unmarked car with blue lights.  If it was a garda in his private car unless you could clearly see it was a garda then I would not be stopping.


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## 900TS (17 Feb 2014)

Joe_90 said:


> Are you talking about an unmarked squad car with blue lights in the front grill, at the sides and in the rear window type of unmarked squad car or just a garda in their own car.
> 
> You should certainly stop for an unmarked car with blue lights. If it was a garda in his private car unless you could clearly see it was a garda then I would not be stopping.



I am talking about what I assume was a garda in his own car - no blue lights were used.
The problem was I could not clearly see that it was a garda - so of course I was dubious when he said he was. The ID he presented was a split second flash of a card in a wallet - but when I asked for a closer look and asked badge number etc. I was treated aggressively. 

Essentially it was all a bit heated, and anyone who has ever questioned a garda knows that you are in an uneven relationship in terms of power at that moment. Any question I posed or defence I put up was met with 'tell it to the judge' type comment.

So my basic question - was I entitled (in law) to keep going, and not stop. Remember he was in a regular car, I was on a bike. My feeling afterwards was that I should not have stopped. As it happens he was a garda, but by the time we had established that he was completely annoyed with me (and I with him), and treated me accordingly initially.
If he had not been a garda, in hindsight it was even more stupid to stop.


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## Guns N Roses (17 Feb 2014)

This post might make more sense if you could explain why this Garda stopped you in the first place.

If he was urgently trying to get somewhere else, then why would he waste his time stopping you?


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## 900TS (17 Feb 2014)

Guns N Roses said:


> This post might make more sense if you could explain why this Garda stopped you in the first place.
> 
> If he was urgently trying to get somewhere else, then why would he waste his time stopping you?



Fair point, but like most things there are 2 sides to the story.  Brief(ish) synopsis of event:

 I was cycling in a bus lane, safely - lights, high viz etc.  His car zipped past me dangerously close, especially in last weeks windy weather (nowhere near the required distance for overtaking a cyclist).  

 At next lights he was first car at lights, still in bus lane.  I took (and retained) road position in front of him on bike space. I decided to take 'ownership' of the space, as advised to cyclists - so I did not cower in at road edge, but stayed well out - in effect though this meant he could no longer 'squeeze' past me as he had done earlier. 

 Or so I thought. He proceeded to hoot, and gesticulate at me , and I in turn gesticulated that this was a bus lane etc... (I think he flashed a wallet at this point), he then very aggressively, in slight traffic gap in regular lane, overtook me again, and gesticulated to pull over.

 By now I suspect he is a garda, but I'm not sure whether to stop or not (by law must I?)  I am feeling intimidated - if he is a garda, is not stopping going to mean further chase and make it worse; if he is not a garda - is he some very annoyed reckless driver going to batter me?

 I did stop (wrongly I feel now).  

 My question is the same - am I obliged in law to stop for a person in an unmarked car/no uniform - even if they are garda?


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## SparkRite (17 Feb 2014)

900TS said:


> My question is the same - am I obliged in law to stop for a person in an unmarked car/no uniform - even if they are garda?



IMO...........*Absolutly Not *!!

And of course your question is the same, because the reason why he stopped you is not pertinent, no onus on you to stop for an non uniformed Garda in an private/unmarked car.

If an action of "failure to stop" or similar was pursued by the Garda, he would have to prove that he identified himself to you, as a Garda, and you then refused to stop, practically impossible to do without you stopping in the first place. Yelling out the window "Garda requesting you to stop" , or suchlike, does not meet that required level of identification.


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## Brendan Burgess (17 Feb 2014)

On what basis did he require you to stop?

What was the nature of the conversation?

I often take ownership of the lane in front of private cars which should not be there. 

Have you been charged with something? 

You can report him to the station or you can report him to the Garda Ombudsman.  

But you are on dodgy grounds if you were doing something illegal,although it sounds as if you were not. 

Brendan


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## SparkRite (17 Feb 2014)

Brendan Burgess said:


> On what basis did he require you to stop?
> 
> What was the nature of the conversation?
> 
> ...



Brendan, none of the above (except, maybe broadly, the first point) are questioned or even mentioned  by the OP.

As far as I can see his/her ONLY question is :



> Originally Posted by *900TS* http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?p=1374175#post1374175
> _
> My question is the same - am I obliged in law to stop for a person in an unmarked car/no uniform - even if they are garda?_


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## fandango1 (18 Feb 2014)

900TS said:


> At next lights he was first car at lights, still in bus lane....



If he was stopped at the lights he was unlikely to have been on an urgent call to somewhere, more like on his way home and therefore illegally driving in the bus lane so I think you would have been justified in not stopping.

As far as I know, marked Garda cars are 'technically' only allowed use bus lanes if they are on a call. If they are simply on patrol or returning to their station, they are supposed to use regular lanes along with the rest of the traffic. I'm open to correction on this however. Of course they are also only supposed to use their blue lights and sirens when on a call too but I have lost track of the number of times I've seen Garda cars (both marked and unmarked) making use of lights/sirens to get through busy traffic only to turn into the next Garda station. Couple of stations in south inner city Dublin spring to mind.

I'm sure these are not any of Martin Calinan's Gardai either


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## Gerry Canning (18 Feb 2014)

900Ts.

on reading more you just met an ignoramus with a bad attitude.
from the threads the Guards ,in particular Mr Callinan , are pushing it.


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## Black Sheep (18 Feb 2014)

+1.


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## Bronte (19 Feb 2014)

I've two questions, can cyclists in Dublin cycle in the bus lanes, can private cars, no I assume to that last one.  A gardai in his private car is the same as everybody else.  Unless he's in an unmarked gardai vehicle.  I assume then the gardai can use the bus lanes, or do they have to have flashing lights etc.

Hope the OP took the licence plate number.


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## werner (19 Feb 2014)

Bronte said:


> I've two questions, can cyclists in Dublin cycle in the bus lanes, can private cars, no I assume to that last one. A gardai in his private car is the same as everybody else. Unless he's in an unmarked gardai vehicle. I assume then the gardai can use the bus lanes, or do they have to have flashing lights etc.
> 
> Hope the OP took the licence plate number.


 
If a decent and brave Garda "whistleblower" is treated this way (highlighting penalty points and much,much worse issue)
http://www.broadsheet.ie/2014/02/18/garda-confidential-2/

 I do not belive the OP would have a leg (cycling or otherwise!) to stand on.


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## Bronte (19 Feb 2014)

I agree with you Werner as I too have little faith in the gardai, but you never know.  Maybe if you report one of them they won't come after your family with parking tickets and such like.  But if people don't stand up to bullying then where will we all be.


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## 900TS (19 Feb 2014)

Thanks for all the feedback - though I think I need to follow up with the garda or citizens information on the specifics of whether by law I had to stop.

 Just to clarify a few items, and answer a few questions:

 I was not actually charged with an offence - I was eventually given a caution.  
 The nature of the conversation was heated from the off, and revolved around me trying to establish his bonafides, and explain my actions. He went into 'you are not cooperating' mode which felt threatening and intimidating from my perspective.

 Because I asked for identification initially, he never actually said what I was being stopped for - cycling dangerously was implied, but once I challended him he called for a car; I called 999 to get confirmation that he was a guard.  

 As I was refusing to provide my details until I ascertained he was a guard, he took that as not co-operating, so went into 'tell it to the court', 'you can put that in your statement at the station' type situation.

 Once I established he was a guard, I switched to 'cooperation' mode, for purely practical reasons (remember I was on my way to work, did not want hassle of going to station, court eventually probably).

 But I guess apart from my main question, I believe the nature of the typical exchange is not evenly balanced - if you do not adopt a servile attitude with a guard, they can use any other type of response as a challenge to their authority and act accordingly.  They either make smart remarks, or ask questions they have no right to etc.

 I know most guards are decent, hardworking individuals, doing a difficult job, but I also feel those same people are let down by the way they engage with the public; it seems to be a cultural thing.

 I will follow up on the correctness of his actions in stopping me. I do have his name and car reg.

 He said at the end he only went into the bus lane as I was cycling dangerously, which was completely untrue - if that was the case he would have tried to stop me at that point, not 500 meters down the road after the next lights, when I 'challenged' him by taking ownership of the road. So I assume he should not have been there.  But these details are open to interpretation - and so I'm not interested in going down that route.  

 His power to actually stop me should be clear cut though.

 The entire episode left me feeling powerless (at that moment) and bullied.

 Thanks again all.


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## Bronte (19 Feb 2014)

What do you mean by he called for a car?  I wonder how one can be cycling dangerously in the bus lane if there is no traffic there.


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## Sunny (19 Feb 2014)

You are under no obligation to co-operate whatsoever until the Guard has properly identified himself. If you asked to see ID, he is obliged to show you. He must also inform you why you were stopped and detained before asking even asking you for your details. 

By all means, make a complaint. I have a feeling that this guy was off duty and was on a power trip. Gives the rest of the Guards a bad name.


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## Brendan Burgess (19 Feb 2014)

Hi 900TS

You absolutely must follow up on this. 

Start with a complaint to the Sergeant in charge of his station. 

If that is not satisfactory, then go to the Garda Ombudsman. 

It sounds as if he was acting illegally and that he is a serious threat to cyclists. I think his sergeant will take it seriously.

Brendan


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## JohnJay (19 Feb 2014)

you should put your questions in writing to the _sergent in charge_ at the station he was from, giving name, date, reg no, etc. Like everybody else, I have a lot of respect for the guards, but it annoys me to see them breaking their own traffic rules when they are not responding to an emergency


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## Purple (20 Feb 2014)

Sunny said:


> By all means, make a complaint. I have a feeling that this guy was off duty and was on a power trip. Gives the rest of the Guards a bad name.





Brendan Burgess said:


> Hi 900TS
> 
> You absolutely must follow up on this.
> 
> ...





JohnJay said:


> you should put your questions in writing to the _sergent in charge_ at the station he was from, giving name, date, reg no, etc. Like everybody else, I have a lot of respect for the guards, but it annoys me to see them breaking their own traffic rules when they are not responding to an emergency



With respect I strongly disagree with the above posters.
There’s no way I would make an issue of it. I’ve heard of and been close to too many incidents of people who have irked the Gardaí suffering low-level intimidation.
They are still effectively unaccountable. This is especially the case for relatively minor issues and/or behaviour that cannot be shown to be repetitive, and they will close ranks to protect their members.
In the case of the OP there was no third party witness so their story cannot be corroborated; there is an out for the Gardaí and there is no way they won’t take it. If it goes to court any judge will take the side of the Garda and the OP will be left high and dry. 

Suck it up and move on.


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## elcato (20 Feb 2014)

> With respect I strongly disagree with the above posters.
> There’s no way I would make an issue of it. I’ve heard of and been close  to too many incidents of people who have irked the Gardaí suffering  low-level intimidation.
> They are still effectively unaccountable. This is especially the case  for relatively minor issues and/or behaviour that cannot be shown to be  repetitive, and they will close ranks to protect their members.
> In the case of the OP there was no third party witness so their story  cannot be corroborated; there is an out for the Gardaí and there is no  way they won’t take it. If it goes to court any judge will take the side  of the Garda and the OP will be left high and dry.
> ...


Good advice I'm afraid, unless you plan on leaving the country.


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## Sunny (20 Feb 2014)

Purple said:


> With respect I strongly disagree with the above posters.
> There’s no way I would make an issue of it. I’ve heard of and been close to too many incidents of people who have irked the Gardaí suffering low-level intimidation.
> They are still effectively unaccountable. This is especially the case for relatively minor issues and/or behaviour that cannot be shown to be repetitive, and they will close ranks to protect their members.
> In the case of the OP there was no third party witness so their story cannot be corroborated; there is an out for the Gardaí and there is no way they won’t take it. If it goes to court any judge will take the side of the Garda and the OP will be left high and dry.
> ...


 
Isn't that how a few bad apples are allowed to destroy the reputation of an entire force? Anyone who makes a complaint and suffers low level intimidation should go straight to their TD or GSOC. Considering the majority of people have no dealings with Gardai from one day to the next, it would be very easy to show a pattern of intimidation if someone was been stopped or harrassed over time after making a complaint.

The OP should report the incident. Most complaints are one word against another. It doesn't mean people shouldn't complain. They mightn't get anywhere with it but it might just make people in these positions think about how they carry out their duties and stop them from thinking they are above the law.


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## RainyDay (24 Feb 2014)

OP should get a helmetcam - cheap ones are available online from about €20.

The next time it happens there will be no argument about who said what to whom.


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## Gerry Canning (24 Feb 2014)

Complaints should be made, but we have a problem.

Most large organisations, , seem to ,knee jerkingly , apply the rule of Circle the Wagons and that complainants are to be treated as troublemakers. 

Eg; Senior Garda making comments that a whistleblowers actions are (disgusting ) is reprehensible.
It could well be a whistleblower is 100% wrong , but in no way should it be construed as any other than an honest attempt to right a wrong. 
What all these senior people in Churches/Hse/Banks/guards etc appear to miss ,is that Mr Whistleblower is their best opportunity to reconsider their staffs actions.,
It gives senior people the opportunity to continually reappraise and improve their organisation. 
Otherwise we get people reticent to complain. We ,I fear have learned  nothing from the Morris Tribunal and worse still our Guards keep losing public confidence.

It is not good that OP won,t raise a complaint.


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## Ceist Beag (24 Feb 2014)

RainyDay said:


> OP should get a helmetcam - cheap ones are available online from about €20.
> 
> The next time it happens there will be no argument about who said what to whom.



+1 Or even just hold up your phone and video the conversation (informing the garda that you are doing so) - that should at least result in a less aggressive approach from the garda. A helmetcam would be better in arguing the case leading to you being stopped in the first place of course.
Whilst it is disappointing that the OP is not raising a complaint here, it is entirely understandable and underlines the lack of confidence in the gardai and in how such a complaint would be handled. If the OP had some recorded evidence of the incident I think they would be more confident in proceeding with a complaint.


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## Bronte (25 Feb 2014)

Purple said:


> Suck it up and move on.


 
It's a sad day when this is the situation, what kind of a country does that make Ireland.  Totally shameful and to use the Commissioner's own words disgusting.


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## 900TS (26 Feb 2014)

I've been away with work so haven't followed up yet.  I know I should follow up, but given what's going on in the media right now, it doesn't give me much confidence in doing so.

 Essentially I met a bully (he even did the classic bully thing of turning it back on me and making himself the good guy 'it's for your own protection', 'have you kids, don't you want to stay safe for them' bullsh*t.

 Problem with bullies (esp those who also have power) is that they don't like being challenged, so being recorded by phone just wasn't practical - he was already very aggressive - I did get a photo of car reg, tried to get one of badge but failed, also 999 would have call record I assume.

 But again, most likely best case if I report it, it will drag on, I'll hear little or nothing, he might get a verbal reprimand.
 Worst case (and this is my fear, though I know it's unlikely) is that I start seeing cars parked outside my house at night, etc, or it's at back of my mind as I wave bye to wife and kids... who knows.  
 I'm still pondering it over though - I have a few months apparently.


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## Bronte (26 Feb 2014)

900TS said:


> But again, most likely best case if I report it, it will drag on, I'll hear little or nothing, he might get a verbal reprimand.


 
So what if it will drag on, by you doing your little bit, if he gets a reprimand it might make him think twice about doing it again to the next unfortunate, and if you do nothing, the next guy will get it even tougher than you did. Sometimes one should stand up to bullies. It makes a better society. You're not in McCabe's league, and will not suffer like he has, and will, he wants a better police force and so should we all. If you and others making you little point achieves that, it is something to be proud of, indeed probably it's your duty as a citizen.  It will be interesting to hear your progress.


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## elcato (26 Feb 2014)

Worst case scenario is that everytime you go through an orange light, not have to correct lighting on your bike, wobble dangerously, not hand signal etc. you will get stopped and given a summons for breaking the law. If you drive a car you will be 'routinely' stopped and have your car tyres checked and all other tests that go with making your life hell. God help you if you actually do something wrong like take a turn you shouldn't have. These guys know exactly how to be petty and get their point across.


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## RainyDay (26 Feb 2014)

elcato said:


> Worst case scenario is that everytime you go through an orange light, not have to correct lighting on your bike, wobble dangerously, not hand signal etc. you will get stopped and given a summons for breaking the law. If you drive a car you will be 'routinely' stopped and have your car tyres checked and all other tests that go with making your life hell. God help you if you actually do something wrong like take a turn you shouldn't have. These guys know exactly how to be petty and get their point across.



So you get a helmetcam, and a dashcam - and you publish nice videos to YouTube showing this harassment and victimisation. And you stop driving through yellow lights. And you make sure you have proper lights on your bike.


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